# Conversations CONVERSATIONS *Discourse on Lord Caitanya Play Between Çréla Prabhupäda and Hayagréva-*-April 5-6, 1967, San Francisco Prabhupāda: ...recording? Hayagrīva: Good. *Prabhupāda: The first scene is that people passing on with saṅkīrtana movement as we have, as we usually do, very nice procession with mṛdaṅga, karatālas and that bugle, all people, just in the ordinary way. We have to make a nice procession. The second scene is that Kali, the personified Kali, a person should be decorated blackish. A blackish man with royal dress and very ugly features. And his queen, another ugly featured girl or lady. So they are disturbed. They'll talk between themselves that "There is saṅkīrtana movement now and how we shall prosecute our business of this Kali*-yuga?" There will be, in that scene, in some corner somebody is drinking. Two or three persons drinking. The scene will be like that. They are sitting in the center. In one corner somebody taking part in drinking, and another part somebody is illicitly talking of lust and love with woman. In another section there is slaughtering of a cow, and another section gambling. In this way that scene should be adjusted. And in the middle, the ugly man, black man, and the ugly woman will talk that "We are now in danger. The saṅkīrtana movement has been started. What to do?" In this way you have to finish that scene. Hayagrīva: Now Kali is depicted as a male. As male? Prabhupāda: As male, yes. Hayagrīva: Because sometimes I know he's depicted as female. Prabhupāda: Yes. Male, his feature black, and dressed like a king. Black means ignorance. And similarly the scene is also blackish. Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: These things should be ascertained(?). Then, it is mentioned there, exhibit illicit sex, slaughterhouse, intoxication, gambling. Then the third scene is very nice. Rāsa dance. Hayagrīva: Uh... Just before this... I'm not going to make this I don't believe either eastern or western, but I think this can apply for the whole world in the sense that the names may be Indian names, but I think the exhibition of the assembly of Kali and his consort sin and the exhibition of illicit sex and slaughterhouse, this can all be, it can be from western type prototype. Prabhupāda: That may be. No, why should you... It may be sometimes misunderstood that western people are only under the influence of Kali. Because the world is under the influence of Kali. Not that in your country only this intoxication, illicit sex. No, everywhere it is. Hayagrīva: I realize that. Prabhupāda: More or less. More or less. Hayagrīva: Not only in that scene. My point is that I don't want to make this an Indian play. Prabhupāda: That you may do. That you may do. I have no objection. But people may not misunderstand that here a scene is depicted simply criticizing the western way. That is my point. Yes. Hayagrīva: Yes. Now that other person, that other Lord Caitanya... Roy? Who wrote the other Lord Caitanya? That other play? Prabhupāda: No, nobody... Hayagrīva: I showed you that other play. Prabhupāda: Oh, that Dilip Kumar. Hayagrīva: Yes. That's what I had in mind. I thought it was strictly an Indian type of play. Prabhupāda: Yes, that was Indian type. Yes, that was Indian type. Or if you like... I have no objection. If you present the characters in European style. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Hayagrīva: No, no. They wouldn't be presented in a western style, but there wouldn't be neither an eastern nor a western flavor. Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. That will be very nice. Hayagrīva: In other words, it could be anywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: The situation could be... Because it's transcendental. It's not here, it's not there. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, the Kali is not transcendental. Kali is material. Hayagrīva: Yes. The earth, the whole world is affected, so it's not just one section. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only earth, this earth. It is whole universe. Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: So next scene is rāsa dance. Rāsa dance means Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī in the center, and the gopīs, they are surrounding. You have seen that surrounding scene they were dancing the other day in the park, hand to hand. Hayagrīva: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So one Kṛṣṇa and one gopī, they are dancing. That should be, scene should be... Then the rāsa dance should be stopped and Kṛṣṇa will talk with the gopīs. Kṛṣṇa will say to the gopīs that "My dear friends, you have come to Me in this dead of night. It is not very good because it is the duty of every woman to please her husband. So what your husband will think that you have come in such dead of night? A woman's duty is not to give up her husband even he is not of good character or if he is unfortunate, if he is old, or if he is diseased. Still, husband is worshiped by the wife. So you have come here, it is very sinful. So you... People will decry it. Please go back. Now we have finished." So in this way the gopīs will reply that, "You cannot request us to go back because with great difficulty and with great, I mean to say, ecstatic desire we have come to You, and it is not Your duty to ask us to go back." In this way you arrange some talking that Kṛṣṇa is asking them to go back, but they are insisting, "No, let us continue our rāsa dance." Then when the rāsa dance is finished, the gopīs will go, then Kṛṣṇa in His halilak(?), He says that "They are My heart and soul, these gopīs. They are so sincere devotees that they do not care for family encumbrances and all, any bad name. They come to Me. So how shall I repay them?" He was thinking. "How shall I repay their so ecstatic love?" So He thought that "I cannot repay them unless and until I take up their situation to understand Me. Because I Myself cannot understand Me. I have to take the position of the gopīs, how they are loving Me." So with that consideration He took the form of Lord Caitanya. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is blackish, Lord Caitanya is of the color of the gopīs. The whole life of Lord Caitanya is representation of gopīs' love towards Kṛṣṇa. That should be painted in that picture. You have got to ask anything? Hayagrīva: This is His determination to incarnate as Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya, yes. Hayagrīva: In order to... Prabhupāda: In order to appreciate Kṛṣṇa in the form of gopī. Just like I have got dealings with you. So you have got your individuality, I have got my individuality, but if I want to study how you are so much obedient and loving to me, then I have to go to your position. It is very natural psychology. Yes. You have to paint in that way. Hayagrīva: I think that's clear. Prabhupāda: Huh? That's clear. Accha. Then fourth scene is lunar eclipse. You'll have to arrange a scene that just in the evening there is appearance of the full moon on the side of the Ganges and people are taking bath half in the water and half above the water, and they're all chanting, this same scene, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, with mṛdaṅga and... Yes. So somebody comes, Advaita. Advaita comes in the scene to take bath in the Ganges and begins to dance. "Oh, my mission is now fulfilled! My mission is now fulfilled!" He'll talk. He was very sorry to see the condition of the people that everyone is engaged simply for material sense gratification. Nobody is engaged in love of Godhead. So he wanted to rectify their behavior, but he thought that "I am ordinary man, what can I do? If Kṛṣṇa Himself comes, then He can do it." Therefore he worshiped Kṛṣṇa, and he simply offered Ganges water and tulasī leaf. In this way Kṛṣṇa has taken His incarnation as Lord Caitanya. So he has understood now at this moment Lord Caitanya is now taken His appearance. So he was dancing, "Now my mission is fulfilled. Now my mission is fulfilled." Hayagrīva: That's Advaita. Prabhupāda: Advaita. Lunar eclipse, everyone taking bath in the Ganges and chanting. Hayagrīva: And Advaita is introduced there and he's very joyful on this occasion because he had requested that this incarnation... Prabhupāda: Yes. He prayed. He prayed to Kṛṣṇa that "You come." Hayagrīva: He's aware at this time that this is the occurrence of Lord Caitanya's incarnation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So this scene should be entered like that. Hayagrīva: Now I noticed in the list of characters we have up here, Rādhārāṇī. She doesn't appear at this point. Prabhupāda: No. Rādhārāṇī will be in the rāsa dance? Hayagrīva: Oh. In the rāsa dance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: That's the... Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī and Kṛṣṇa in the center. And Kṛṣṇa has expanded Himself for other gopīs, hand to hand. Hayagrīva: That's the third scene, the rāsa dance. So Rādhārāṇī appears in that? Prabhupāda: That's the third scene, yes. There is the appearance, appearance of Rādhārāṇī. Hayagrīva: The damsels of Vṛndāvana appear also in the... Prabhupāda: No, the dance was in Vṛndāvana. Yes. Rāsa dance was in Vṛndāvana. Hayagrīva: The damsels of Vṛndāvana also appear in the third scene. Prabhupāda: Yes. Third scene. Yes. Rāsa dance of Lord Kṛṣṇa and His associates, Lord Kṛṣṇa's determination. Hayagrīva: All right. Now we have the fourth scene. Does Advaita speak to anyone in the fourth scene or is that...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: Is there anyone there? Any of these characters there? I'm trying to introduce these characters. Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Hayagrīva: The characters should be introduced in the first act. Prabhupāda: Yes. There should be... Hayagrīva: A few of them. Not all of them, but a few of them should be... Prabhupāda: Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsa and Haridāsa. Haridāsa character is there? Hayagrīva: Yes, I have this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haridāsa should be a old man. Hayagrīva: So Advaita is old too, isn't he? Prabhupāda: Advaita is old. Hayagrīva: And Nivas. *Prabhupāda: He is not so old. He is middle*-aged man. Hayagrīva: Could you give me a brief rundown on their...? Are they devotee, they're devotees... Prabhupāda: Just like the picture is, Advaita, say, his age is about forty years, and Haridāsa and Advaita, he was about more than fifty years old at that time when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born. They were quite old men. His father's age. Hayagrīva: They're all devotees. *Prabhupāda: They're all devotees. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was propagating His saṅkīrtana movement the brāhmaṇas, the orthodox brāhmaṇas, they took objection. "This is not according to Hindu śāstra. This is something new." But only these two gentlemen, they... Advaita happened to be the head of the brāhmaṇa community. So his support... And he was a well*-to-do man, he was rich man, influential man. His support made Caitanya's movement successful in Nabadwip. He was a very influential man. And similarly, Śrīnivāsa, he was also, he belonged to the brāhmaṇa community. And Advaita gave shelter to Haridāsa. Haridāsa was a Muhammadan. So he was punished by the Muhammadan magistrate and he took shelter at the house of Advaita. He was maintaining him. You can make them appear in the scene. They were talking between Haridāsa and Śrīnivāsa and Advaita and all of them chanting and dancing, "Now our mission is fulfilled." Hayagrīva: Yes, I see. All right. Now the fifth scene... Prabhupāda: Fifth scene, Lord Caitanya's mother, Śacīdevī, is sitting underneath a tree, a nim tree. It is called nim tree. And the little child on her lap and the visitors, so many visitors are coming, and they are offering some presentation. Somebody is offering gold necklace, somebody offering some bangles, some cloth, some money, and his father, he...what is called...Jagannātha Miśra. Jagannātha Miśra is there? Yes. Jagannātha Miśra, His father. He was, whatever money and clothes and gold and silver, they were coming, he was also distributing to poor men, some dancers. In India there is a system... What you call the eunuchs? Those who are neither male or female. What do you call? What is their name? Hayagrīva: A combination of both, male and female? A hermaphrodite. A hermaphrodite. Prabhupāda: Eunuch, what is that eunuch? Hayagrīva: A eunuch is... Prabhupāda: Feminine. Hayagrīva: Impotent, an impotent... Someone who's been castrated. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is called eunuch. By nature, neither man, neither woman. Hayagrīva: Oh, this is also called asexual, that is to say no sex. Prabhupāda: No sex. Hayagrīva: Hermaphroditic means they have the physical features of both man and woman. Prabhupāda: Oh. At the same time? Hayagrīva: At the same time. Prabhupāda: I do not exactly. But such people they have their own society and their means of living is that whenever there is some good occasion, a marriage or childbirth, like that, so they go there and pray God that this child may be very long living. In this way they make some prayer and get some... Hayagrīva: These people... Now I don't understand... This takes place at..., the sixth scene...? Prabhupāda: At Jagannātha Miśra's house. Hayagrīva: Jagannātha Miśra's house. And his wife is who? Prabhupāda: This scene should be mentioned as Jagannātha Miśra's courtyard. Hayagrīva: And who is his wife again? Prabhupāda: Śacīdevī. Hayagrīva: Śacīdevī, yes. Prabhupāda: Śacīdevī is the mother of Lord Caitanya. She is sitting with the child and everyone is visiting, visiting, presenting, or all, everyone's saying, "Oh, how nice child He is." Hayagrīva: And these asexual people... Prabhupāda: They are dancing. Hayagrīva: They are dancing. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are dancing, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes, like that. So Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing is going there? Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: And visitors coming and presenting. That is a very nice scene. Yes. The sixth scene is Lord Caitanya, a naughty boy. He would go to the Ganges side and it is the system of orthodox brāhmaṇas that they meditate in the Ganges, half. That is the system. Now He will go and swim over the water and throw water in their mouth in this way. Naughty boy. And they will be very much disgusted. "You naughty boy! You come here!" "Stop your meditation. What is this meditation? Chant! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa!" He'll say like that. So they will come and complain to His father. "Your child has become too much naughty and just see that..., teased us like this." The father will say, "Oh, the boy is going to be very naughty. I'll punish Him. Let Him come." So father, angry father was waiting. As soon as the boy will come he would punish. But when the boy returns the father sees that He's just coming from school. There is no sign that He has gone to Ganges and taken bath. How is that these gentlemen complained? He will be puzzled. In that way, we have to show. Hayagrīva: How old is He here? How old is Caitanya here? Maybe five, six? Prabhupāda: That was, He was five or six years old. That's all. Hayagrīva: And this is... What's the location again? Prabhupāda: This location is front of Jagannātha Miśra's house. Hayagrīva: Yes. Six years later in other words. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: All right. That's the... Does He meet any of these characters at the river? Does He meet any of the characters up there? Prabhupāda: No. General public. General public. But they are all brāhmaṇas, rigid brāhmaṇas. They are taking bath. Yes. Hayagrīva: Now is that the end of the first act? Prabhupāda: End of the first... I think you should first of all write this, then you take. Or you take all the notes at a time? Hayagrīva: Do you feel like going on? I don't think I'm going to write these now. I'm just going to use this tape. When I go over a scene I'll just play it back. It's too much to write. Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. Hayagrīva: If you feel like going on, then go ahead. Prabhupāda: No, I can talk. Hayagrīva: Oh, good. Prabhupāda: I can talk. Hayagrīva: Well let's do as much as possible because you're leaving Sunday. Prabhupāda: All right. All right. Do it. Hayagrīva: This is second act now. Prabhupāda: Second act. Then Lord Caitanya's saṅkīrtana organization in the house of Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsācārya. The saṅkīrtana movement was... They were all chanting together Hare Kṛṣṇa, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked the devotees that "Hello, My dear friends. What do you want to eat?" So some of them said... That was out of season, and still some of them asked that "We shall be very glad if You give us some mangoes." (laughs) So Lord Caitanya said that "All right. You just bring one seed of mango." So in Bengal there is, seed of mango is available always because the people in the village, they eat mango and throw it in the ground, they say they come out as tree, creeper. So it is not very difficult. So he brought some creeper like that, and he sowed it, and at once it became a tree, and there was sufficient quantity of mango fruits. So all the devotees were distributed. And that mango tree remained there and they were taking mango every day. And in that scene, just try to... The next scene is brāhmaṇas' dissatisfaction. Now some of the brāhmaṇas... Hayagrīva: How old is Caitanya now? Prabhupāda: He was about... Hayagrīva: Sixteen? Prabhupāda: Fifteen, sixteen, like that. Yes. Fifteen, sixteen. Yes, you ask me questions, any about that. Hayagrīva: That's His saṅkīrtana organization, that first scene. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: And from this first comes... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the beginning of... Hayagrīva: A scene of Nivas... Prabhupāda: At Śrīnivāsa's house. Hayagrīva: Are the people mainly young people like Himself? Prabhupāda: Yes, they were all young. Hayagrīva: Or are they older brāhmaṇas? Prabhupāda: Older, only these... Hayagrīva: Only the three, yes. Prabhupāda: Haridāsa, Śrīnivāsa, and Advaita. They were taking part. Otherwise, all, they were young friends, yes. Young boys. No girls. That is not the system in India. (laughs) Yes. Now when the second scene, mainly their movement was going on and it was becoming popular. Now Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached that simply by the saṅkīrtana movement everything will be fulfilled. You need not do anything. So the priest class brāhmaṇas they became very much dissatisfied that "He is inviting Muhammadans and all others..." Because according to Hindu society, except the brāhmaṇas... Especially in those days, only the brāhmaṇas were considered the highest in the society, and even the kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they all calculated to, in the group of śūdras. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was allowing everyone, the Muhammadans, the śūdras, the low class, the high class, the brāhmaṇas... He was amalgamating everyone. So these brāhmaṇas, they took objection. "He is making a disastrous movement! The prestige of the brāhmaṇas will go." So they became very much dissatisfied and they concluded that "We shall go to the magistrate and file our complaint that He is doing against Hindu religion and He's crying always 'Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa' loudly. The Lord is sleeping. He will be disturbed and there will be disaster, Lord being angry." In this way they filed complaint. Ask anything, questions. Hayagrīva: Are there any of the characters listed up here among the brāhmaṇas who complained? Prabhupāda: No. They complained... Characters... Ordinary brāhmaṇas. Hayagrīva: Yes. All right. I can't think of anything there. That leads into the next scene, third scene. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the next scene is that some constables came and during the Hari*-saṅkīrtana, they broke the mṛdaṅgas that "You have disobeyed the magistrate order that... So you cannot do it." So as the constables, they do some violence or assault, so they did that. And after the constables went away Caitanya Mahāprabhu was informed. He came. He saw that the mṛdaṅgas are broken and everything is strewn away so Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw. He decided, "All right. Now we shall organize a civil disobedience movement. Now tomorrow we shall organize thousands and thousands of people with mṛdaṅgas and we shall approach the magistrate house." So He... Next scene... What is that next scene? Hayagrīva: Now the constables broke up a saṅkīrtana carried on by Caitanya's friends. Any location here particular? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is called the Śrīvāsa house. Hayagrīva: On a house. At someone's home. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in India the village houses they have got some compound. Not that only fixed house. Every house has got a compound. Hayagrīva: All right. Very good. Now the fourth scene, this is the meeting with the magistrate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Fourth scene. That... Hayagrīva: They march to the magistrate. Prabhupāda: Magistrate house and in the courtyard all the people, they were very much enthusiastic. Hayagrīva: Several thousand. Prabhupāda: Several thousand. And they were loudly chanting and meeting Lord... So when the chanting was going on the Chand Kazi appeared and there was discussion between... Chand Kazi was also very great scholar, and Lord Caitanya was also scholar. So Chand Kazi, just to pacify them, he addressed Caitanya, "My dear boy, You happen to be my nephew. You are my sister's son. Why You are so angry upon Your maternal uncle?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu got the clue that he was prepared to make compromise. So He also mildly replied, "Yes, you are My uncle, I know. So because you are My uncle, therefore I have come to your house. How is that when the nephew comes that you do not receive Him? In an angry mood you go upstairs?" So in this way, the situation was pacified. Then they sat together and there was a very learned discussion between the two. Because Hindus are always against cow killing. So he was Muhammadan. They were killing cow. Hayagrīva: Chand... Prabhupāda: Chand Kazi. Hayagrīva: Muhammadan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Muhammadan. Chand Kazi was a... Maulana Chand Kazi. His name is Maulana Chand Kazi. He was a great scholar in the Koran scripture. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu first of all asked the Chand Kazi, "My dear uncle, what is your religion that you are eating your mother and father?" (laughs) So he could understand that He was attacking the cow killing process. So he said, "Well, You are just trying to criticize our cow killing, but in Your Vedic literature also I have seen that cow killing is allowed in sacrifice." Then Lord Caitanya said, "Yes. That is not killing. That is rejuvenating. That is not killing." The sacrifice of cow recommended in the Vedic śāstra means that the brāhmaṇas prove how powerful was Vedic mantra that it could give a new life to the old cows and bulls. So then Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, that "Such kind of learned brāhmaṇas and Vedic yajña is not possible in this age. Therefore cow killing..." Not cow killing. "Sacrifice by offering cow, sacrifice by offering horse, and..." Aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ [Cc. Ādi 17.164]. And sannyāsaṁ pala paitṛkam. Sannyāsa means to become in the renounced order of life. And these five things. One thing is sacrifice by offering cow. Second, sacrifice by offering horse. Third, to accept renounced order of life. And fourth, offering ablutions... Or what is called? Offering some, something to the forefathers? What is called? Hayagrīva: Oblations. *Prabhupāda: Oblations. Yes. This, and to beget child by the husband's younger brother. Formerly, the society allowed that if a woman is young, she has no child, but husband died, so if the husband has younger brother, through the younger brother she could have a child. This system was current. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that these five things are forbidden in this age. So Chand Kazi also replied that "Cow killing is also not generally recommended in the Koran. Actually, beef*-eating or flesh-eating is not in the higher stage. But those who are inclined to take flesh, for them it is recommended that instead of killing many small animals, one big animal should be killed. So actually in Mecca, Medina, they kill camel. That is also in the mosque." So the substance of his speech was that flesh-eating ultimately is not recommended. "But those who have no other means, they eat flesh and they recommend that one big animal should be killed. So India, the cow is big animal, therefore we kill. But that is not recommended for advanced spiritual students." In this way... So they were friends, and he understood, Chand Kazi understood that it is very nice movement, that "You are preaching love of Godhead. So I did not understand. So my dear boy, henceforward there will be no hindrances in Your movement and I promise that not only myself but all my descendants will never object Your movement, this saṅkīrtana movement." Hayagrīva: All right. Now I don't have any questions there. I probably wouldn't deal quite at such length about the meat. I don't see how that... The main thing was about the saṅkīrtana, the chanting. Prabhupāda: Chanting, and it was mitigated, and he allowed. First of all, there was objection, then there was civil disobedience, then when they compromised, the Chand Kazi allowed the movement. This is the whole idea. Hayagrīva: The fifth scene is renunciation of household life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: This is at age...? This is considerably later then. This is about ten years later. Prabhupāda: No. Renunciation... Now this Chand Kazi, he was... This movement when He was about 20 years old. Do you follow? Hayagrīva: The saṅkīrtana was when He was around 20. The Kazi. Prabhupāda: The saṅkīrtana was going on. Hayagrīva: When He was 16, 15. Prabhupāda: But practically He started this saṅkīrtana movement vigorously from the age of 15 years. But when He was 20 years old, when the movement took very nice appearance, the brāhmaṇas complained. So this movement was about 20 years old when... Then renunciation... Hayagrīva: He's 24 now. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Renunciation. So one day it so happened that instead of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Lord Caitanya was chanting, "Gopī, gopī, gopī, gopī, gopī," instead of chanting "Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa." So He had a small school. The brāhmaṇas, generally they keep a small school which is called catuṣpaṭhī. (spells out) C*-c-h-a-a-t-u-s-p-a-t-h-i. Catuṣpaṭhī, catuṣpaṭhī means a school where up to the four Vedas are taught. Grammar and religion and everything is taught there. In every village that was system. The brāhmaṇas should keep up a school like that. Students were all almost they were also of the same age. Some of them were fifteen years old, sixteen years old. So students came and saw Lord Caitanya was chanting "Gopī gopī," so they objected. They said, "Oh, why You are chanting 'gopī gopī'? Why should You not chant 'Kṛṣṇa'? 'Hare Kṛṣṇa'?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in His ecstasy because He was... In the beginning, His appearance is in the form of gopī, to love Kṛṣṇa. So He became very much angry, and because they were students, He wanted to chastise them. He took a stick. "You nonsense! What you are speaking? Go away!" So they fled away, but after that they organized. "Oh, how is that? Caitanya, He is... How He has become so big that He wants to beat us?" In this way they practically they were talking ill of Him. So He decided that "If I remain a householder, these people will not honor Me." Because in those days a sannyāsī was honored in the society very much. If a sannyāsī comes to your village or to a householder's house it was very... Still it is going on, although not so widely. But still 80% of the population in India, if they find out a sannyāsī they give all honor. So He decided that "Now I shall become a sannyāsī." So He happened to see Keśava Bhāratī, a sannyāsī of the Śaṅkara sampradāya, and He requested him that "You give Me sannyāsa." So He took sannyāsa from Keśava Bhāratī and He was assisted by Nityānanda, Murāri Gupta, and some other people. So this is His renunciation decision and acceptance of sannyāsa. Hayagrīva: How does He, How does He accept sannyāsī? I mean how does He...? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa, there is a ceremony. Just like we have got the initiation ceremony. Hayagrīva: Did He have a spiritual master? *Prabhupāda: So He accepted spiritual... Not spiritual master, but a sannyāsa*-guru. That is also master, but he's not spiritual master. But he's also considered as sannyāsa-guru, spiritual master who offers him sannyāsa. Just like myself, I took initiation from my Guru Maharaja, but I took sannyāsa from a Godbrother who is a sannyāsī. So my original guru is that spiritual master who initiated me, but he's also a śikṣā guru. Like that. Teacher. Then His renunciation of householder. He became sannyāsa. Now when He was, after taking sannyāsa, when He was going towards Vṛndāvana, He became always almost mad. So Nityānanda, He was with Him. When He saw that Lord Caitanya is in ecstasy, He misled Him just to... His plan was that "I shall take Lord Caitanya to the house of Advaita, and then I shall call His mother to see Him for the last time. If Caitanya goes away from this very point His mother will not be able to see Him." So out of sympathy He said, "Well, Śrīpāda Caitanya, this is not, this side is not Vṛndāvana. You go..." He just misdirected Him. So... And He sent one man to Advaita to receive Him that "He has taken sannyāsī, just try to make arrangement to receive Him. Then we shall meet." So when He came near the house of Advaita He saw that Advaita was waiting. So then He, I mean to say, came to His sense. "Oh, I am misled? I have come to Advaita's house? How is that Nityānanda? You showed Me this way Vṛndāvana." Then He said, "Oh, wherever You stay, that is Vṛndāvana." Now Advaita says, "All right, please come to my house." So he received Him and took Him there and sent news to His mother that "Your son has now taken sannyāsa. Now if you want to see Him for the last time please come and see." So in this way at Advaita's house He remained for some time. Say about a fortnight. And during that time, in the beginning, His mother came and His mother became so much sorry. That scene you have to describe very nicely. Mother seeing that her son has taken sannyāsa, no more He'll come to house. So (s)he was crying. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu fell on his(her) feet and begged, "My dear mother, yes. This body belongs to you. This body should have been engaged for your service. Unfortunately I've done a mistake. I have already taken sannyāsa. Please excuse Me." In this way. That scene described in the Dilip Kumar's house, that Caitanya is consulting mother, that is a false scene. The actual scene is that after accepting His sannyāsa, His mother came to see Him at Advaita's house. That is the... Hayagrīva: Yes. Does she give Him her blessing finally? Prabhupāda: No. Of course, mother's blessings are always there. But the scene was that mother was crying and He was falling on the feet and His mother was very sorry that He had very beautiful hair. Now it is all cut off. In this way, the scene is very pathetic. So in this way, after remaining at Advaita's house, His mother was asking Him through Advaita, "Let Him remain for some time." Then He consulted "Mother, now just you think over that I have taken sannyāsa. And if I remain in this way, leaving My own family, and if I leave another family, do you think this is very nice for a sannyāsī? So give Me permission to go away." Then mother agreed and other friends like Advaita and Śrīnivāsa requested His mother that "You give Him permission." Then (s)he said, "Yes, I have to give Him permission because He has already accept sannyāsa. If somebody blames Him, blasphemy, that is also not good. So my last request is that He may make His headquarter at Jagannātha Purī so that... Because people generally go to Jagannātha Purī, so I shall be able at least to know about Him, how He is faring there. That is my last request." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu at once accepted. "My dear mother, I shall always stay in Jagannātha Purī, and sometimes I may come to Bengal also to take bath in the Ganges. So there will be meeting. Now let Me go." So in this way they departed and Caitanya Mahāprabhu for the last time saw His friends and mother. Hayagrīva: I don't understand Nityānanda's motive. He's a friend. Nityānanda, He's a young friend of... Caitanya's. Prabhupāda: Oh, Nityānanda was not actually a family brother. But He was, He is the incarnation of Baladeva, the elder brother of Kṛṣṇa. So He took His birth in a different family, but He joined Caitanya's movement as other friends joined. So He is considered the elder brother of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's actually. Hayagrīva: He opposed Caitanya's sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: No, no. He did not oppose. He did not oppose. He simply, after Caitanya's acceptance of sannyāsa, He wanted simply that He should come to Advaita's place so that His mother may see Him for the last time. That was His plan. Hayagrīva: I see. [break] Hayagrīva: All right, this is third act, first scene. *Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after taking leave from His mother, left Bengal towards Orissa, and on the entrance of the district of Balasore there is a nice temple called Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha temple. And He saw the temple. Here the scene is to be arranged that there is nice temple and within the temple there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity, Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. The pūjārīs are there, ārati is being taken place, and at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu entered with His followers chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, and He saw the Deity and danced before Him. And when the ārati was finished, prayer was finished, then He sat down, talked with His associates, Nityānanda and Gadādhara and Murāri. So Nityānanda Prabhu described about the Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, the story of Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. It was very nice story, that formerly one ācārya, Madhavendra Purī came to this temple, Gopīnatha, and while that condensed milk which is called kṣīra was being offered to the Deity, Madhavendra Purī wanted to taste it so that he would also prepare such condensed milk and offer to his Gopāla. So after that he thought, "Oh, it is being offered to Kṛṣṇa and I wanted to taste it. So I am so greedy." So he left the temple, that "I am not worth to visit this temple." He went outside the temple and sat down underneath a tree and was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then at dead of night, Gopīnatha, the Deity, was awakening His priest by dream, that "You please get up. I have kept one pot of condensed milk behind My..." What is called... That (pid?) vastra, kings, sometimes they have got, very long tail-like. What is that called? Hayagrīva: Robe or something? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the name? Hayagrīva: I don't know. *Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit it is called (pid?) vastra, backside robe. So under the backside robe He kept one pot of condensed milk by stealing. So the pūjārī woke up and opened the door and actually saw that there was a pot of condensed milk. The priests were very much astonished that "Oh, He has stolen (laughs) kṣīra for His devotee." So the order was that "You take this pot and give to Madhavendra Purī. He is sitting underneath a tree." So they, with the pot of the condensed milk, they began to cry, "Oh, who is that Madhavendra Purī? Oh, you are so fortunate. The Deity has stolen condensed milk for you. Take it." So he came forward and he was so pleased that Lord has stolen. "Because I desired to taste so Lord has stolen one pot." So in this way. From that day He became famous, the thief of condensed milk, Kṣīra*-corā. Kṣīra means condensed milk and corā means thief. So the temple became famous as the temple of the thief of condensed milk. Hayagrīva: Caitanya, the condensed milk thief. *Prabhupāda: No. Oh, you did not hear. Caitanya, after seeing the Deity, He was sitting and seeing and meantime Nityānanda Prabhu narrated the story how His name became Kṣīra*-corā-gopīnātha. You did not follow me? Hayagrīva: Nityānanda? Prabhupāda: Nityānanda was going with Lord Caitanya. Hayagrīva: Narrated this to Lord Caitanya? Nityānanda narrated this to Lord Caitanya. *Prabhupāda: Yes, how the Deity was known as Kṣīra*-corā-gopīnātha. The story was narrated that formerly He stole one... Hayagrīva: Condensed milk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pot of condensed milk for His devotee. Hayagrīva: Now what direct relationship does this have to Lord Caitanya? *Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya also visited. Anyone in those days going to Jagannātha Purī from Bengal they had to pass that way. And on the way the Kṣīra*-corā-gopīnātha temple is there. So everyone used to visit. So formerly Madhavendra Purī, he also visited, and for him the Deity stole the condensed milk. From that time He's known as Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. That story was narrated to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So while sitting before the Deity, the story was narrated and Caitanya Mahāprabhu relished it that God is so kind that sometimes He steals for His devotee. This is the significance of this. So here the scene should be arranged that very nice temple, the Deity within, and Lord Caitanya entered while chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and saw the worship, ārātrika. These things are to be shown in this scene. And a little story about Him, that's all. Hayagrīva: About the temple. Prabhupāda: About the temple. This will finish the first scene. Hayagrīva: There should be more to the scene I think than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrangement of the scene, yes. A very nice temple. Hayagrīva: We might be able to... Now what is this second scene? This is another temple. *Prabhupāda: This is another temple, yes. Here also, this temple, Sākṣi*-gopāla. Hayagrīva: I might be able to combine these if they... Prabhupāda: No. They are different temples. So Lord Caitanya is visiting different temples, that you have to show. And each temple, the significance of the temple has to be described. Especially the Deity. When the importance is to the Deity, the Deity should be shown nicely decorated. (end of first tape) Hayagrīva: Well I don't know if I have enough information for that first scene. But I'll think of something ... I don't know if I have enough information for the first scene. It can be very short. Prabhupāda: First scene, why you have to... The ārātrika is going on and kīrtana is going on, you can continue for five minutes, ten minutes the kīrtana, and short description of the Deity. That's all. That will finish. *Hayagrīva: Now the other is the Sākṣi*-gopāla. *Prabhupāda: Sākṣi*-gopāla. Sākṣi means witness. Gopāla. That picture, we have brought that big picture, that is Gopāla mūrti. Alone standing Kṛṣṇa and playing... You have seen that big picture? Hayagrīva: The big picture, yes. *Prabhupāda: A Deity like that should be situated in that temple. And His name is Sākṣi*-gopāla. Similarly Lord Caitanya entered with His party and saw the ārātrika in Gopāla temple. Then the story of the Gopāla, Sākṣi, why He was known as Sākṣi-gopāla. Hayagrīva: Saw what? Darate. Saw what? He saw... Prabhupāda: Ārati. Hayagrīva: Entered and saw in the Sākṣi temple and saw...? What did you say? *Prabhupāda: Sākṣi*-gopāla means witness Gopāla. So how He became witness, that story was also narrated by Nityānanda to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That story is that in that village, two brāhmaṇas... That's a very long story. Hayagrīva: What does this have to do with this temple? What does this story have to do with the temple? Lord Caitanya has entered this temple. *Prabhupāda: That's all. But how this temple was established, how Gopāla was established, that history is in that story. The Sākṣi*-gopāla means witness. This Gopāla was situated in Vṛndāvana, but to give witness for His devotee He came to Orissa, that place. That is the significance of this Gopāla. Do you follow? Hayagrīva: No. (laughs) No. Prabhupāda: This Gopāla was situated at Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means about more than one thousand miles away from where the temple is situated now. But He came one thousand miles to give witness for His devotee. Since then, Gopāla is situated there. So that story is narrated. That story should be narrated or what? How to do it? That is the significance of the temple. There was some family quarrel and Gopāla came to give witness to decide judgement on that quarrel. So it is possible to describe? Hayagrīva: I think from a dramatic point of view, that in your third act, you can't have too many narrations. It becomes very tedious. If you have a narration. Someone telling the history of various temples. Like in the first scene, now there's a story being told Lord Caitanya by Nityānanda. Now in the second scene He visits another temple. And is there going to be another narration about how the temple was founded? I don't think that's... I don't know. (laughs) Do you think that will be all right? Prabhupāda: No. That will be all right in this way, that the narration should be shortly described in poetry and that will be chanted with kīrtana. In that way, you see. Hayagrīva: Yes. You see the first two acts there was a lot of action. Now we're in the third act and we have two scenes of description. Now they can be two short scenes of description. That will be all right, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So what is the story? A short little story? *Prabhupāda: The short story is that there was two brāhmaṇas. Two brāhmaṇas. One young brāhmaṇa, one old brāhmaṇa. They went to Vṛndāvana to see Gopāla, and the old brāhmaṇa was so obliged to the young brāhmaṇa, he promised to hand over his youngest daughter to the young brāhmaṇa. But when he came back home his eldest son objected. So he kept mum. Then when the young brāhmaṇa, I mean to say, reminded him that "You promised before Gopāla to hand over your daughter. Now you are silent. What is this?" So his eldest son said, "Well, if Gopāla comes to give witness that my father promised before Him then my sister can be married with you." So he went back to Vṛndāvana and requested Gopāla to come and give witness. So He came and the marriage ceremony was performed. This is the sum and substance of the story. And since then Gopāla did not... Gopāla means statue. So in those days there was no transport service. And when Gopāla was present everyone became struck with wonder that "Oh, such a devotee that Gopāla has come from Vṛndāvana to Orissa, more than 1,500 miles." So the king of that place constructed a very nice temple and since then that temple is known as witness Gopāla. Sākṣi*-gopāla means witness. So this story can be shortly described and chanted with music and the scene of the temple will be seen, Caitanya Mahāprabhu dancing. Our real purpose will be the dancing and singing and little description. Hayagrīva: Yes. Now, is that all of this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then He visited Jagannātha temple. And the Jagannātha temple you have to arrange, it is very crowded temple. So many people were visiting Jagannātha temple, at the same time Lord Caitanya also entered, and He entered alone. Hayagrīva: How old is He at this point? Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Hayagrīva: His age at this time? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four years. It is just after His sannyāsa. He took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four. So He's visiting. After sannyāsa He's going to Jagannātha Purī. On the way He visited this Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, Sākṣi-gopāla, and ultimately He came to Jagannātha temple. And in the Jagannātha temple was very crowded temple because it is always at least 500, 1,000 devotees are always seeing. It is significance of Jagannātha temple. So He entered and as soon as He saw Jagannātha He became overwhelmed with ecstasy and fell down unconscious. So all the people gathered, "He's a young sannyāsī. He has fallen down." So there was Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, the learned scholar of Purī. He saw, "Oh, this young sannyāsī, He's not ordinary." So he asked his men to carry Him to his place and that will be the scene. Then after His departure His followers will come, and they will search in the temple that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not there. Then one Gopīnātha Ācārya, I think the character is there? Gopīnātha Ācārya? Hayagrīva: Now is this the... Prabhupāda: Yes, Gopīnātha Ācārya. Hayagrīva: Is this the learned brāhmaṇa? *Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha Ācārya and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. They were brother*-in-law. Hayagrīva: Saba...Be... Prabhupāda: Bhauma. Hayagrīva: Oh, his name is here. Yes, you didn't mention... Prabhupāda: And Gopīnātha Ācārya is also there. Hayagrīva: Yes, all right. Sarvabhooma. *Prabhupāda: So just note down. First of all, Caitanya Mahāprabhu enters the temple. As soon as He sees Jagannātha He becomes fainted and fell down unconscious. So all the visitors, they became astonished that here is a young sannyāsī and how is that He has fallen down? But Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya noted that He is a high*-grade sannyāsī. So he asked his men that "You carry this body, unconscious body to my place." So his men took away Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body unconscious, and Sārvabhauma also and exit. Then after their departure His party entered the temple. Nityānanda, Gadādhara, and Murāri, all these men entered. So Gopīnātha Ācārya was present there. He was known to Gadādhara and Gadādhara inquired that is there any sannyāsī who came here? Then Gopīnātha Ācārya said, "Yes, we have seen one sannyāsī. He fell down in ecstasy and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya has taken Him to his home." So he invited, "All right, you come with me. I am taking you there." So all the parties were taken to Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's place. Hayagrīva: The friends of Caitanya. What are their names again? Prabhupāda: Their name is Nityānanda, Gadādhara... Hayagrīva: What's that name? Prabhupāda: Gadādhara. Hayagrīva: Oh I see, yes. And Murāri. Prabhupāda: And Murāri and Mukunda. And Haridāsa also. Yes. Hayagrīva: And Haridāsa. What about Advaita? Prabhupāda: No, Advaita and Śrīnivāsa, they were left in... Hayagrīva: All right. They're not there. Prabhupāda: The next scene comes to the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's place. Hayagrīva: Fourth scene. Prabhupāda: Fourth scene. Yes. Lord Caitanya meets Sārvabhauma. Now from Jagannātha temple the next scene is Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house. Do you follow? Hayagrīva: Yes. *Prabhupāda: In that house, Caitanya, Lord Caitanya was lying unconscious in ecstasy, the same unconsciousness which He got from the temple. So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was trying to treat Him with some water so that He may come to consciousness. Now when His other friends, Nityānanda, Gadādhara and others arrived there, they told, "Oh, Lord Caitanya, He becomes unconscious while chanting. So He cannot be revived to His consciousness by any other means. We have to chant." So in the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house that chanting and dancing began with all the members, and gradually Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to consciousness. Then there was introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu through Gopīnātha Ācārya and Gadādhara. And Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya told that "You become my guest, you, all of you." And he gave them places. Then... Caitanya Mahāprabhu was only twenty*-four years old, and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, he was old man, about sixty years old. So by acquaintance it was disclosed that Sārvabhauma's father and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grandfather were class friends. So Jagannātha Miśra in that sense... Jagannātha Miśra means Caitanya's father, was a relative, brother-in-law of Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. So he took Him affectionately and told Him, "My dear boy, You have taken sannyāsa at a very early age. So You should be very careful to study Vedānta-sūtra from me. Otherwise it will be very much difficult for You, young man." So He agreed, "Yes, you are just like My father. So you will kindly give Me instruction on Vedānta-sūtra." So there was discussion of the Vedānta-sūtra between Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That discussion is shortly mentioned in the introduction of my Srimad-Bhāgavatam. You will see. Hayagrīva: The discussion between Sarvabhooma? Prabhupāda: And Caitanya. Hayagrīva: And Caitanya, regarding... *Prabhupāda: Regarding Vedānta*-sūtra. *Hayagrīva: That's in the introduction to Srimad*-Bhāgavatam. Yes, I remember that. All right. There's no sense in going over that. All right. What is the outcome of this now? Final outcome? Prabhupāda: The outcome is that Sārvabhauma was impersonalist and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was Vaisnava. Then by argument, logic, and everything, that is shortly described here, Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya became a disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he became a great devotee. That is the outcome. And it was a great victory on the part of Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was known as the most stubborn scholar of logic of that time and he became a devotee. By Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's becoming a devotee of Lord Caitanya, practically He became victorious in His missionary activities because Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was the learned scholar in the assembly of the King of Orissa. So the King of Orissa also became a devotee. And many other scholars and big men. Hayagrīva: Of Caitanya's. They all became devo...the King of Orissa? Prabhupāda: Yes, he became a great devotee. Hayagrīva: That might even be mentioned in this scene. I don't know if you can mention it here. Prabhupāda: It is not mentioned, but... Hayagrīva: Well, that's an outcome of this meeting anyway. Prabhupāda: When Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was meeting the King, the King inquired that "I have heard that there is a big sannyāsī has come here. What is the details of the sannyāsī? I've heard that you have also become a disciple." So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained, "Yes, He's not ordinary sannyāsī. He's Kṛṣṇa Himself so far I've studied." So Bhaṭṭācārya, he was authority, a great learned man. And the King, when he heard that He is Kṛṣṇa, he also became a devotee. So all expenditure, all everything was supplied by the King and his officers to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So many people... Always four hundred, five hundred men were visiting Him. So whoever would come he would supply food and place. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He began His chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa in the Jagannātha temple. The same scene is being performed here before the Jagannātha temple, Lord Caitanya is dancing. When we perform the class I remembered that scene. Yes. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu is dancing before Jagannātha. Every evening four parties. In each party four mṛdaṅga and eight karatālas. So one party this side, one party this side, one party back side, one party front side, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the middle would dance and the four parties will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... That was going on every evening so long He stayed at Jagannātha Purī. Hayagrīva: That only happened as long as He stayed there. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: This no longer...they no longer do this. Prabhupāda: No, not in that way, but kīrtana goes on in the temple still. Hayagrīva: Not to such an extent. Prabhupāda: Sometimes to such an extent. But He was different personality. In His presence, that was a different thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's, I mean to say, Deity, is within the temple. That Deity is worshiped and kīrtana takes place, Bhāgavata...(?) Hayagrīva: In Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: In Jagannātha Purī, yes. Hayagrīva: All right. Now is that all of the fourth scene? Anything else in the fourth scene? Prabhupāda: No, nothing. Hayagrīva: All right. Then that's the end of the third act. Prabhupāda: It is the end of third act. [break] Hayagrīva: This is the fourth act, first scene. Prabhupāda: Yes, fourth act, first scene. Hayagrīva: Meets Rāmānanda Rāya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Shall I speak? Hayagrīva: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So after converting Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu started for His South Indian tour. In South Indian tour, before meeting Rāmānanda Rāya, He visited a very nice temple which is called Vijaya Nṛsiṁha. Shall I...? Shall you give that scene? That is very nice temple. Huh? Hayagrīva: Yes. Go ahead. Prabhupāda: Then the first scene will be the visit of Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh temple. Hayagrīva: Vijaya... Prabhupāda: Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh. Hayagrīva: I'll get the spellings of these from you later. Hayagrīva: What do you mean He wouldn't address him because He was a sannyāsī? *Prabhupāda: Sannyāsīn, the restriction is the sannyāsī should not beg from pound*-shilling man or see them. That is a restriction. Women and men of pounds-shillings-pence. Hayagrīva: But I thought Rāmānanda Rāya was a devotee. *Prabhupāda: But he was devotee, but undoubtedly, but outwardly he was a governor. Outwardly. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not go him, but he understood that "Here is a nice sannyāsī." He came down and offered his respect and sat down before Him. And there was acquaintances, and Lord Caitanya said that "Bhaṭṭācārya has already informed Me about you. You are a great devotee. So I have come to see you." And then he replied, "Well, what devotee? I am a pound*-shilling man, politician. But Bhaṭṭācārya is very kind to me that he has asked Your Holiness to see me. So if You have come, so kindly, kindly deliver me from this material māyā." So there was appointment of time with Rāmānanda Rāya and both of them met again in the evening and there was discussion about, I mean to say, spiritual advancement of life. Lord Caitanya inquired from him and Rāmānanda Rāya replied. Of course, that's a long story, how He questioned and how he replied. Hayagrīva: Rāmānanda Rāya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: Well, is that important? That's the scene about the meeting. Prabhupāda: Meeting, meeting, that discussion would you like to give? Hayagrīva: Well, if it has to be rendered in the scene it's important. You want me to render the discussion? Prabhupāda: Important is the scene that He met Rāmānanda Rāya, he came in procession, that was a nice scenery. These things are already complete. Now so far the talks are concerned, the summary of the talk was... Hayagrīva: Just give me the brief summary. *Prabhupāda: Brief summary... In this scene Caitanya Mahāprabhu became the student. Not exactly student. He inquired and Rāmānanda Rāya answered. So the importance of the scene is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not follow the formality, only the sannyāsīs should be the spiritual master. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can be spiritual master. And to show this example practically, although He was sannyāsī and brāhmaṇa and Rāmānanda Rāya was a śūdra and a gṛhastha, householder, still He became like a student and inquired Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya felt some, I mean to say, hesitation that "How can I take the position of a teacher to a sannyāsī?" Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "No, no. Don't hesitate." He stated that either one may be a sannyāsī or he may be householder or one may be a brāhmaṇa or śūdra, it doesn't matter. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can take the place of teacher. So that was His, I mean to say, gift. Because in Indian society it is simply taken that the brāhmaṇas and the sannyāsī can be spiritual master. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "No. Anyone can become spiritual master provided he's conversant with the science." And the summary of the discussion was how to elevate oneself in the highest perfection of love of Godhead. And that love of Godhead was described, existed, I mean to say, superexcellently in Rādhārāṇī. So in the bhāva, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī. And Rāmānanda Rāya, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī's associates Lalitā*-sakhī, both of them embraced and began to dance in ecstasy. That will be the end of the scene. Both of them began to dance in ecstasy. Hayagrīva: Rāmānanda Rāya... Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hayagrīva: All right. Now the second scene. Is that the end of the first? Prabhupāda: Second scene, fourth act, Caitanya Mahāprabhu after finishing His South Indian tour, He came back to Jagannātha Purī, His headquarter, and after some days He started for Vṛndāvana. While He was in Vṛndāvana He was embracing the tree as old friend, and the birds were sitting on His hand, as if receiving an old friend. Because He was Kṛṣṇa. So after many years they have seen. And that scene, if you can describe how He's traveling in the Vṛndāvana forest. Then He took bath in the several vānas and ghāṭas. Ghāṭas means bathing place of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. And everywhere He felt the ecstasy of Rādhārāṇī, separation. In this way He returned from Vṛndāvana, and when He came down to Prayag, modern Allahabad, at that time He met Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hayagrīva: Now you say the trees were old friends because He could remember that He was Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa used to play in these forests. He used to play in the forest. Yes. Now He met Rūpa Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: At Prayag. Hayagrīva: At Prayag. Yes. Prabhupāda: Allahabad. And... Hayagrīva: What is His age? I just want to keep checking on this, His age now. Is He twenty, in His twenties still? *Prabhupāda: No, no. He took sannyāsa at twenty*-four. Say twenty-five, twenty-six years. Hayagrīva: Couple years later. All right. Because time is an important factor. You have to keep track of the time in the play. Prabhupāda: Yes. He toured, after His sannyāsa, He toured all over India for six years only. That means up to 30th year He toured all over India. And from 30th year to 48th year, 18 years, He constantly remained at Jagannātha Purī. He used to chant in the temple and meet His visitors. Especially during car festival ceremony of Jagannātha, from Bengal about 400, 500 devotees would go and meet Him, and they would remain there for four months continually. July, August, September, October. Four months. And then they would come back. In this way, for 18 years He passed in Jagannātha Purī. So Rūpa Gosvāmī, He met Rūpa Gosvāmī and He taught him about the science of devotion for ten days. That devotional service He instructed that the living entities they're roaming in the 8,400,000 species of life. Fortunately, if by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and if he gets one good spiritual master, then he learns about devotional service. So He taught him about the science of devotional service. That is the importance of meeting Rūpa Gosvāmī. So here the scenery must be mentioned. It is on the bank of Ganges. There is a nice ghāṭa, just like... You have been to Benares? No. You have been to Hardwar? Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen many ghāṭas, bathing places. Hayagrīva: Oh yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, there are ghāṭas in Benares, Prayag, and all, I mean to say, Vṛndāvana. That is the specific significance of Indian places of pilgrimage. Hayagrīva: Yes. They bathe there every day I noticed. Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, there is a ghāṭa which is called Daśāśvamedha Ghāṭa at Prayag. He instructed about the science of devotional service to Rūpa Gosvāmī. Hayagrīva: Now how old is Rūpa Goswami? Is he an old man? Prabhupāda: Oh, he was old enough. He was not less than fifty years at that time. Hayagrīva: I see. All right. Anything else in the second scene, fourth act? Prabhupāda: That is it... And then He came back to Benares. Hayagrīva: Who? Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hayagrīva: I thought He stayed in Jagannātha... He's not now... He left... Prabhupāda: No, from Jagannātha Purī He went to Vṛndāvana. From Vṛndāvana while coming down again He first of all came to Prayag. There He taught Rūpa Gosvāmī. Then when He still came down He came to Benares. At Benares He remained for two months. More than two months. And for two months continually He instructed Sanātana Gosvāmī about devotional service. That instruction you'll find in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I've written that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. In that you'll find. Hayagrīva: Now this third scene, meets Sanātana Gosvāmī, that's in Benares. And Sanātana is how old? Prabhupāda: Sanātana was older than Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was the eldest. He was not less than about 65 or 70 years old. He was old man. Sufficiently old man. Hayagrīva: Yes. And of the instructions to Sanātana Gosvāmī are in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. All right. Now... Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, the fourth scene, the teachings with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, that is also in there. Hayagrīva: Who is this? *Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī was at Benares. He was a Māyāvādī sannyāsī, Śaṅkara sampradāya. So he used to... This scene should be given that at Benares He was also walking all over the streets and roads, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa" and thousands and thousands men were following Him. This news arrived to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī who was the chief sannyāsī there and some of the devotees told, "Oh, a very nice sannyāsī has come to Benares. He's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī deprecated, "Oh! This is a nonsense! Why a sannyāsī should chant and dance? He should concentrate his mind in studying Vedānta. He is a fool." In this way Caitanya Mahāprabhu was criticized. So one Maharastrian brāhmaṇa, he was devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said that "This incident gave us much pain, sir. If You kindly meet this sannyāsī and talk with him about Vedānta*-sūtra, that would be a nice thing." In the meantime one brāhmaṇa came and invited Lord Caitanya that "I have invited all the sannyāsīns of Benares, but I know You do not meet these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, but still I have come to invite You. You kindly accept my invitation." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw this opportunity of meeting Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. He accepted his invitation, and there was a meeting, and there was discussion of Vedānta-sūtra with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, and He converted him to be a Vaisnava. That is another incident. Hayagrīva: How old is this man? Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī? He was also old man. Not less than sixty years old. Yes. Hayagrīva: And what was his role again in the town? What was he... He was a Vedantist? Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. He was a Māyāvādī sannyāsī. He accepted Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle and he offered his respect. He touched His feet. And he also joined. But there is no mention that he became officially a Vaisnava, but he accepted the philosophy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya officially, he became a Vaisnava. Then Lord Haridāsa meets... Hayagrīva: Fifth scene. Prabhupāda: Fifth scene. Hayagrīva: This is Haridāsa Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Hayagrīva: At who's death? At Haridāsa's death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haridāsa was very old man. He was Muhammadan. Hayagrīva: He was the person that was thrown in the river. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: So he finally met his end here, in the fifth scene. Prabhupāda: We are not meant for those... Of course, Haridāsa Ṭhākura has a separate life, but that we are not going to show. Hayagrīva: Yes. All right. This particular incident. Prabhupāda: Particular incident is significant, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a brāhmaṇa and He was a sannyāsī. According to social custom He should not touch even a Muhammadan, but this Haridāsa Ṭhākura was a Muhammadan, and at his death He took the body Himself and danced, and He put him in the graveyard and distributed prasādam. And Haridāsa Ṭhākura for two, three days he was feeling not well. Because he was Muhammadan he did not enter the temple of Jagannātha temple. Because the Hindus were very strict. He was devotee, he never mind. Why he should create some row? So Caitanya Mahāprabhu appreciated his behavior that he did not want to create any... Because he has become devotee. Forcibly he was not going to the temple. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself was daily coming and seeing him. While going to take bath in the sea, He'll first of all see Haridāsa. "Haridāsa? What you are doing?" Haridāsa will offer his respect and He will sit and talk for some time. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu will go to take His bath. In this way, one day when He came He saw Haridāsa not feeling very well. "Haridāsa? How is your health?" "Yes Sir, it is not very... After all, it is body." Then the third day He saw that Haridāsa is going to leave his body today. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, "Haridāsa, what do you desire?" Both of them could understand. Haridāsa said that "This is my last stage. If You kindly stand before me." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu stood before him and he left his body. (pause) Hayagrīva: You mentioned that... Prabhupāda: After his departure the body was taken by Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself, and other devotees took him to the seaside and dug his graveyard. That grave is still in Jagannātha Purī. Haridāsa Ṭhākura's samādhi, tomb. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu began to dance. That was the ceremony. Because in a Vaiṣṇava ceremony, everything is kīrtana and dance. So that was His last ceremony of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Hayagrīva: You mentioned something about Caitanya dancing with Haridāsa? Prabhupāda: Haridāsa's body. Caitanya...dead body. Haridāsa's dead body. Hayagrīva: Oh, with his dead body? Prabhupāda: Yes. His dead body. Hayagrīva: After his death. Prabhupāda: After his death. Hayagrīva: Caitanya... Prabhupāda: While, I mean to say, Haridāsa was alive, he was dancing. But after the death of Haridāsa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself took the body and began to dance with kīrtana. That means his funeral ceremony was conducted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself. He took the body to the seaside and in the graveyard He... Hayagrīva: He conducted the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Funeral ceremony, yes. Hayagrīva: With a kīrtana. Prabhupāda: With kīrtana. Kīrtana is always there. And after burial there was distribution of prasādam and kīrtana. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So here you have to show some talks with Haridāsa, how feelingly. Hayagrīva: All right. Are there any other... Is there any other information about Haridāsa? Prabhupāda: The life history of Haridāsa is that he was born in a Muhammadan family. Someway or other he became a devotee and was chanting 300,000 times Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu made him ācārya, the authority of chanting. Therefore we glorify him, "Nāmācārya Haridāsa Ṭhākura ki jaya." Because he was made the ācārya, the authority of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then, when Lord Caitanya took sannyāsa, Haridāsa Ṭhākura desired that "My dear Lord, You are leaving Nabadwip, then what is the use of my life? Either you take me or let me die." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "No. Why shall you die? You come with Me." So He took him to Jagannātha Purī. At Jagannātha Purī, because he considered himself born of Muhammadan family, he did not enter. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave him a place at Kāśīnātha Miśra's house and there he was chanting and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's sending him prasādam. In that way he was passing his days. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come and see him daily, and one day he died like this. Hayagrīva: All right. That's the end of the fourth act. Now the fifth act... Prabhupāda: The fifth act... Hayagrīva: First scene. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the, in the fifth act, ecstasy. At night Caitanya Mahāprabhu would become mad in separation of Kṛṣṇa. He would dash His head on the floor. Sometimes He would write with His nails and sometimes He would go away. Although the house was locked, He would go away, and sometimes He would be found amongst the cowshed of Jagannātha Purī. Sometimes He would be seen in the seashore. One day it was so found that He fell in the ocean and some fisherman caught Him in the net. And as soon as He was in the net and the fisherman touched Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he also began to dance, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. And his brothers, his fellow men thought, "Oh, he's caught ghost, haunted." So in the meantime, His secretary, Damodara Svarupa came to the seashore and he saw that the fisherman was dancing. Then he could understand that he must have some connection with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, (laughs) otherwise why this fisherman is dancing and Hare Kṛṣṇa? Then asked him, "What has happened to you?" He said, "Sir, I do not know. I am a fish*-catcher. Now this morning I caught one big fish, and as soon as I caught I am haunted. So I am dancing." So Swarup Damodar, "Where is that fish, big fish? Let me see." So he saw in the net Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He saw Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he told him, "Yes. I'll chant some mantra so the ghost will go away." So he made him some show. "All right. Now your ghost is over." So he took away Caitanya Mahāprabhu and when Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw, He told Swarup Damodar, "Why you have brought Me in the seaside? Oh, I was seeing rāsa dance of Kṛṣṇa. I was enjoying." In this way He was always in ecstasy. And in the last stage, the same ecstasy, He entered Jagannātha temple and He never came back. That is the end of (voice trails off) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... So you have to arrange scenes and sounds. That's all. Hayagrīva: Uh, now... In ecstasy here on the seashore, I don't understand. He met this fisherman. Prabhupāda: No! He, at night out of His own accord, He came to the seashore and fell on the sea. Hayagrīva: Oh, He threw Himself in the ocean. Prabhupāda: In the ocean. Bay of Bengal. And the fishermen they came to catch fish. So instead of fish, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body was in the net. Hayagrīva: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: He already dropped Himself on the sea. Hayagrīva: He was unconscious. Prabhupāda: Unconscious. He was rolling in the sea. Hayagrīva: So they brought Him out and some of His friends went to find Him. Prabhupāda: Not all. His secretary. Because he knew that Caitanya must have gone somewhere. So while inquiring where is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he came to the seashore he saw that the fisherman was dancing. Then he could understand he is dancing with Hare Kṛṣṇa, that means he must have some connection with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hayagrīva: Oh. Prabhupāda: Then when he inquired, he told him that "I have caught this morning a big fish and since then I am dancing. I do not know. I got mad. Perhaps I have been caught by some ghost. So I do not know." So Swarup Damodar just to pacify him, "Yes. I am just driving away ghoul, mean to say, ghost. Don't worry. Where is that fish? Let me see it." And when he saw that fish was caught in the net, and it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hayagrīva: Now the second scene here, this is when Caitanya on the seashore, this is when He would walk around saying, "Where is Kṛṣṇa?" Is that right? "Where is Kṛṣṇa" He would... Prabhupāda: Yes. He was seen on the seashore within the net after being caught by the fisherman. And when He fell on the sea, that is not seen. You can make a scene that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare...and fall down in the sea. Then He was caught by the net of the fisherman. Hayagrīva: What is the second scene? Prabhupāda: This is the second scene I have described. First scene and second scene. Hayagrīva: The first scene also. Prabhupāda: They are all. First, second scene, they are all ecstasies. Yes. And the third scene similarly... Hayagrīva: Wait. He must be in His forties now. This is in His forties. Prabhupāda: Yes. These ecstasies were going on daily from His age 30th to 48th year. Hayagrīva: 38 to 48, every day. Prabhupāda: Not 38. 30th. Hayagrīva: 30. Prabhupāda: 30 to 48. 18 years. Sometimes He was chanting, sometimes He was falling, sometimes He was going there. That was His business all 18 years. Hayagrīva: Every day? Prabhupāda: Every day. Especially at night. (Hayagrīva laughs) Simply... The whole program was the whole day He would see the visitors. And so many visitors were coming. In the evening He'll chant and dance in the temple. And at night instead of sleeping He was doing all these... Sometimes falling in the sea, sometimes here, sometimes there. That was His business. Hayagrīva: I see. Now this third scene. Prabhupāda: Third scene. In the same way, one day when He was 48 years old He entered the Jagannātha temple... Hayagrīva: And disappeared. Prabhupāda: Disappeared. His friends outside waited and waited, and He never come back. That's all. Hayagrīva: They never knew what happened to Him. They never found... Prabhupāda: Yes, they knew that He was Kṛṣṇa. He has merged into the existence of Jagannātha. Hayagrīva: He left. Took off. All right. Now no more. That's the end. Prabhupāda: Now you write and I shall make some addition or alteration when you write. This is the synopsis and framework. Now you can proceed. (end) Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles Interviewer: I think the first question is kind of basic, is why is everything always taped at all the... Prabhupāda: Because we have got so many branches, they want to hear me, my singing, my speech, therefore they record it and send it to different branches. We have got thirteen, fourteen branches: one in New York, one in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, Vancouver, London, Hamburg. We have got so many branches. Interviewer: What are the basic beliefs of the Kṛṣṇa religion? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. So God, this word, does not explain the nomenclature of God. Now this Kṛṣṇa is Sanskrit word, and it conveys the full meaning of God. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive means He is full of all opulences. In this world we are attracted by one who is very rich, we are attracted by one who is very famous, we are attracted by one who is very highly educated, we are attracted by someone who is very beautiful. Similarly, these are features of attraction. And when all these attractions are reposed in one place without any rivalry, He is God. That is the conception of God. So Kṛṣṇa means all these six opulences in fullness together. That is the full definition of God. Interviewer: What effect to the followers does chanting give? I heard from one that it transports them to a utopian type situation. I wondered if you could elaborate on that a little more. Prabhupāda: Which situation? *Interviewer: Utopian*-like, where there is no harm, no..., all is good, and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, this our process is chanting. It is very innocent. If you sit down and chant with us, you have no loss, no harm, but there is great gain. You see? By chanting, you gradually cleanse your heart and you can realize what is God. That is the greatest gain. Human life is meant for knowing God. The animals, they cannot know, although the bodily demands of the animal and the human being are the same. The animals, they sleep; man also sleeps. Animal, they eat; man also eats. The animal, they are also afraid of some enemy; man is also afraid of some enemy. The animals, they mate with the opposite sex, and men also do that. But what is the special significance of man? He can understand about God, but the animal cannot. Therefore if a man does not take to this understanding, he is no better than animal. A man who has no God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is no better than animal because he has no other business than the four principles of bodily demands. So that is also prevalent in animal kingdom. Therefore this is a privilege for human being, to understand about God, and as such, in every human society there is some sort of religious principle. This religious principle means to understand God. Either you take it, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism, every religion is trying to understand God according to their capacity. So without this understanding, means Kṛṣṇa consciousness, human life is as good as animal life. Interviewer: Do you believe that other religions have some truth to them because they all are... Prabhupāda: I have already told that religion means searching after God, every religion. The process may be different. The audience may be different. Just like in Christianity there is conception of God, "God created this world." So this is a fact. We also say. But we say in very lucid explanation from the Vedas. We don't stop, simply saying, "God created," but how created, how things developed, these descriptions are there in the Vedic literature. That is the difference. Otherwise there is no difference of opinion. The Christians accept God created this world; the Jewish religion, they also accept God created this world; the Muslims they also accept God created this world; we also accept God created this world. So "God is the supreme; *God is great," that is accepted by everyone. But the only difference is that we give details so that modern mind, who are advanced in education and scientific knowledge, they can understand, whereas others, they cannot give in detail. Therefore they are deviating gradually because the modern, advanced, educated persons they want to know how God created this world, and that description is lacking. But we can give that. That is the difference. Otherwise the primary principle, to understand God*-God is great; we are small, tiny; we are subordinate; *we are maintained by God*-this idea is everywhere. Interviewer: Yes, well, what is your explanation of the creation of the world? *Prabhupāda: That is a huge thing. That we have to see to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that God expanded Himself first of all in Mahā-Viṣṇu, He lied down on the Causal Ocean. And while He was in sleeping mood, from His breathing, innumerable universes came into existence. Then each and every universe, Mahā-Viṣṇu entered. Then again He lied down there, and from Him the first creature, Brahmā, generated. Then Brahmā created other planets. First there was creation of sound. From the sound, the sky came into existence. From the sky, air came into existence. From air, fire came into existence. From fire, water came into existence, and from water, this land developed. In this way, there are very detailed description in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So we have to take it that way. Interviewer: Were you born in this country or were you born in... Prabhupāda: No. I was born in India, Calcutta. My birthplace is Calcutta. Interviewer: When did you come to this country? Prabhupāda: I came here in September, 1965. Interviewer: Did you come with the purpose of spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Yes. I am an ordained minister for preaching these missionary activities. So I came here in September, 1965. Then, for one year, I was traveling in many parts of your country. In the beginning I was in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, and then I went to Philadelphia. Then I came to New York. And in this way I was traveling, not very much. And in 1966, in July 1st, I started my class in New York at 26 Second Avenue. That is my first starting. Then the younger generation began to come to me, and they started the San Francisco branch, Montreal branch. In this way the institution is going. And we have sent our students to Europe also. They have already started one branch in London, one in Hamburg. And we have sent our students in Honolulu. They have started a branch there. So our program is to start several..., as many branches as possible to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And it is very easy. We simply invite persons to come and chant with us. It doesn't matter what he is, what is his language, what is his religion. We don't take into account all these things. And this Hare Kṛṣṇa is so easy to utter, that any man can utter. That we have experienced. Any part of the world, we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they can very easily imitate and chant. Even child, they also. So by chanting, he gradually becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. His heart becomes cleansed and he can understand what is science of Kṛṣṇa, what is science of God. Then he automatically offers himself for initiation. Then we initiate him and guide him in different ways. But our students are strictly forbidden to have illicit sex life or meat-eating or intoxication or gambling. These four things are strictly forbidden for our students. And they take it seriously. We get our... In your country boys and girls, they live as friend. I don't allow that. If there is such friendship, I immediately ask them, if they become my student, I immediately ask them to be married. And this experiment has proved very successful. I got these young boys and girls married, and they are very happily living, and husband and wife, they are preaching. All my students in London-there are six boys and girls*-they were married by me, and they are doing very nicely. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice in everywhere, especially in this country. That is my opinion. And people will be benefited, especially the younger section who were feeling frustration in every respect, and they are now happy. It is practical. Just ask any one of my students how they are happy. You have seen in our temple how happily they are living and dancing from their face. Face is the index of mind. You will understand from their face how happy they are feeling. They are not smoking. They are not taking marijuana or are taking... No. This nonsense we don't allow. Simple food and chanting. That makes them happy. Simple thing. Interviewer: I notice that most of your followers, at least in this temple, are young, like in the college age or in the teenage. Is it because Kṛṣṇa doesn't attract the older generation, I mean, yourself excluded? *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa attracts everyone. Just like magnetic stone attracts iron. But the iron is covered with too much muddy things*-the magnetic force does not work. This younger generation, they are not too much dirty; *therefore they are very easily attracted. You see? It is like a magnetic force. The same example, that magnetic force attracts iron. That is natural. But if the iron is too much rusty and covered with muddy things, then it does not act. So older generation means they are convinced in some way. They cannot accept any new thing. You see? They are in the last stage of life. Whatever they have understood, they cannot forget. But younger generation, they have got capacity to take new things. Just like nobody goes... No old man goes to school because they are unable to receive education. But younger generation, they go. So there is a age to receive. So this age is recipient. Therefore naturally-it is nice thing*-they are receiving. Interviewer: You spoke of initiation. What is that initiation? *Prabhupāda: Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasādam, hear philosophy. And if he understands, "Oh, this is very nice," then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction that "If you want to be initiated..." We get hundreds of letters by everyone who has attended our classes. Daily we are getting some married couples or boys and girls, but most of them are younger. My students are within thirties. The oldest student I have got at the present moment, he is twenty*-eight years. No, Kirtanananda is about thirty years old. That's all. So, of course, I do not get any older people. That is nice, hopeful, because younger section, if they take it very seriously, then I have hopes that they will preach in future, even in my absence. And old people, if a man becomes too much accustomed to a certain limited habits, in old age it is very difficult to give it up unless one is extraordinarily intelligent. Interviewer: What is the purpose of the robes and having your head shaved? Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult to understand. Just like you dress in a certain way, I dress in certain way. So we have got this dressing system in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and this is taken from Vedic literature. A brahmacārī should dress like that. And that is very economical. Our dress is saffron dress. It does not become dirty very quickly, and we... [break] This dress is not very important thing, but when one is initiated, he accepts the regulations which I give them. So it is not that if you do not come in that dress in our temple you will not understand our philosophy. That is not... We don't mean that. But it is convenient. But anyone who does not want to change this dress, that does not matter. We don't insist. These brahmacārīs, they voluntarily change. Otherwise there are many students, just like we have got two, three students, they are working. They come just like ordinary American gentlemen. So there is no objection in that way. Dress is not very important thing. Interviewer: Do you have a name that you call... are they called students? Like, would he be called a student or a...? Devotee: Brahmacārī. Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī. We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs. And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas. And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas. And those who are renounced, they have no connection with anything worldly, they are called sannyāsa. Just like I am a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone. Interviewer: Could I ask for a spelling on those? *Prabhupāda: Sannyā... Yes, brahmacārī: b*-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī. Then gṛhastha: g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha. Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras. Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas. And the worker class is called śūdra. So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society. Interviewer: Have they encountered any problems in, like out on the Hollywood Boulevard? Police action or telling them to move or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only that depends on the whims of the police. Sometimes they say, "You are blocking our roads." Sometimes, "Oh, you are doing nice." So that depends on their temperament. Interviewer: How about from the crowd? *Prabhupāda: Crowd, of course, whenever there is crowd, it is natural*-police do not like it. So we don't create crowd. But generally, people, out of inquisitiveness they gather together and see how they are chanting. They are sympathetic. They contribute. They purchase our books and literature. The people, public is sympathetic. The police are also sympathetic. They don't object when we go at night, but during busy hours, they object. So one of our students was arrested by the police. So he was taken to the court, and I gave them $315 for what is called? Bail. But he was not convicted. He was immediately liberated, and now our money was returned. So it is not a problem. Interviewer: Were there any followers before you came to this country? *Prabhupāda: No. In this country, of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there was none. It is the first time. I have introduced. But in India it is very, very old, since the advent of Kṛṣṇa, and at least since last five thousand years. So Kṛṣṇa is very popular in India. In every home, Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, and there are many millions of temples of Kṛṣṇa in India and followers also. Followers means almost all Hindus are followers of Kṛṣṇa. They read this Bhagavad*-gītā. So I have recently published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. It is published by Macmillan Company, and this book is very nicely being received. It is being reviewed by several papers. I have got many others books. They are being gradually introduced. Perhaps you have seen in our counter. We have got books, magazines, calendar, and other literatures. So it is a very scientific movement. It is not a sentiment, bogus hoax. Anyone who wants to understand this movement philosophically, scientifically, they will be very much satisfied with this. The idea is that any religious movement without philosophical basis, it is simply sentiment or fanaticism. And philosophy without idea of God is simply mental speculation. Therefore religious principles combined with philosophy, that is perfect. So the younger section become attracted to this movement because we are giving some religious principle based on philosophy. Interviewer: About how many followers would you say there are in the United States? Prabhupāda: Initiated members, there are about one hundred or little more, but sympathizers, admirers, there are many. Those who come, those who contribute, take sympathy, they help, and in that way there are many followers. But actually initiated members, there are about a little more than one hundred. Interviewer: What is the significance of... Right after the chanting, everyone bows, and that I don't understand, what they're doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is offering respect. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to ask people to surrender to God. They have rebelled against God. Somebody says, "There is no God." Somebody says that "I am God." These nonsense things are to be eradicated from human society. So they should be trained to submit. So the submission is symbolized by bowing down: "Yes, you are great; I am humble." This should be taught. Otherwise, whimsically somebody is thinking that "I am God." They do not know what is God. It is most foolish proposal if somebody claims that he is God. He is dog. We very much hate this proposal, when a man claims that he is God. It is most blasphemous. Interviewer: Have you... Did you... Well, you've only been over here about four years. But have there been dropouts, out of the movement, of the hundred that were initiated? *Prabhupāda: They are doing nicely. They are making progress. They are understanding the philosophy. They are working for it. Now I am the only man who came from India, and still, I am one. I have no... There are many Indians, but I have no Indian follower here. Of course, in India we have got. That's a different thing. But these, all these American boys, they are cooperating with me. That means they are taking this movement very seriously. We have got two great papers, magazines, already, Back to Godhead. One is published from New York, and the other is published from Montreal. [break] In French language. Montreal it is published in French language, and they are well received. Recently I have received one letter from my disciple, Janardana. He is Janus Dambergs, M.A., he is the editor of that paper. He is a very good scholar in French language. His wife is also good scholar, Muna. She is also very good scholar in French language. So they are publishing, and the magazine is well received by the French*-speaking people there. And we have contemplation to publish the same magazine in German language also from Germany. Interviewer: I was talking to one the other day, and he said his name was Tamul. Prabhupāda: Tamāla, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Tamāla? And he was from Manhattan. Now, I assume when you join, do you assume a name? Do you change your name? Prabhupāda: Yes, when one is initiated, I give him a name which means remembrance of Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Is it necessary to know of the Indian language when you join? Because I noticed that when your... Prabhupāda: This is not Indian name. This is Sanskrit name. Interviewer: It's what? *Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit is a language which is mother of all languages. Sanskrit, S*-a-n-s-k-r-i-t, Sanskrit language. So this is the original language of this..., not only of this planet. In other planets also, this language is spoken. So the names are in Sanskrit. They do not belong to any community or any section. It is universal. We have no information. Just like this word, Kṛṣṇa. It is universally known: "all-attractive." The exact English translation is "all-attractive." So there cannot be any proper nomenclature for God than this "all-attractive." Unless God is all-attractive, how He can be God? This is the perfect nomenclature. Similarly, anything Sanskritically named, that is all perfect. Yes. Interviewer: I think that's all the questions I had. I can't think of any more. Let me think. (end) Interview -- March 9, 1968, San Francisco Interviewer: Your Grace, what is the basis of your teachings? *Prabhupāda: The basis of this teaching is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. I have already published my book, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. This book is not new. It is very old book, at least five thousand years old, and it is very widely read all over the world. In your country I have seen there are about more than twenty-five different editions, English. Similarly, there is in German language, in England, in Japan. Everywhere, all over the country this book is very widely known, Bhagavad-gītā. In other words, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The speaker of this book is Lord Kṛṣṇa, and the subject matter of this book is what is our relationship with God. Then, after understanding what is our relationship with God, we can work accordingly. Just like you are citizen of America, you have got a particular relationship with the state, and you are expected to work according to that relationship, and then you are good citizen, you are law-abiding citizen, and state gives your all protection, and you can improve to the highest perfectional stage. Similarly, if we know our relationship with God, whom we call Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive, and that is the perfect name of God. Unless God is all-attractive, he cannot be God. God cannot be Hindus' God or Christians' God or Jews' God or Mohammedans' God. No. God is for everyone, and He is all-attractive. He is fully opulent. He is fully in knowledge, perfect in knowledge, perfect in beauty, perfect in renunciation, perfect in fame, perfect in strength. In this way He is all attractive. So we must know our relationship with God. That is the first subject matter of this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Then if we understand our relationship, we can act accordingly. At the present moment we are, some of us declining God. "There is no God." Some of them have little conception of God, "God is great," but they do not try to understand what is actual relationship with God. They are not very serious. In this way, practically we are avoiding our eternal relationship with God, and therefore we cannot act properly, and that is the cause of all miseries. That is the cause of all problems. Just like if you do not know the state laws, then you do not act properly. You are always criminal. For example, if you do not know how to drive, "keep to the right," if you drive to the left, you may think, "Oh, it is after all driving. What does it matter, right or left?" But no. As soon as you drive left, you become criminal. Similarly, because we do not know our relationship with God, therefore we are acting wrongly, and therefore, under the laws of God, we are becoming more and more criminal and our problems are increasing. Therefore, in spite of advancement of education, science, civilization, a nice dress, car, and everything, nobody trusts nobody. You see? Everywhere you go, a gentleman's house, oh, "Beware of the dog," "No trespasser allowed." Always suspicious. An individual person is suspicious of another individual person. A nation is suspicious of another nation. A community is suspicious of another community. So how can you have peace and prosperity? Suspiciousness means animal, animalistic. A dog is suspicious of another dog. As soon as it finds another dog, immediately begins to bark." Row! Row! Row!" So is that human civilization? So what is the mistake of the human civilization? The mistake of the human civilization is that they have forgotten the relationship with God. So here is the scientific statement of our relationship with God. And then, according to that relationship, exactly in the same way, just like understanding your relationship, your citizenship in a state you can act nicely, similarly if we know our relationship with God, we can act very nicely and that is peaceful life. And besides that, this life, the present life is not all. We have got life after death. That is a fact. Just like we are continuously in life, in this present life, you were a child, I was a child. Everyone of us were a child. That was a life. Then we became boy, then we became youth. Now we are, I am becoming old, and generally, when this body will be useless, I will have to take another body. This is the way. Unfortunately, the people, they do not believe in the next life. Although in every day affair they are experiencing that "I am eternal. I can remember the days of my childhood. I can remember the days of my youthhood, my boyhood, and I am still working. That means I am continuously there although my body in different ways have changed." So it is a fact that even after changing this body, you will have another body. Just like you are sitting in this room. Now, if you vacate this room, that does not mean you are finished. You have gone in some other room. So this is a great science. And people are neglecting this science. They have no, I mean to say, information. There are so many departments in universities, technological, medical, engineering, but where is the department to know or understand what is this life, what is God, what is our relationship? So this is not very good civilization. So there is life after this life. Just like progressive life, a child is progressing to youthhood, the youth is aspiring to become a big man, important man. As in this life there is progressive life, similarly, life after life, there is also progress. There are different grades of life. So we get information from authoritative books that there are 8,400,000's of different grades of life, and there are 900,000's of aquatic life, two million species of plants and trees, about eleven hundred thousand species of life of birds, three million types of species of beast, and 400,000 species of this human body. Out of that 400,000's, different kinds of human bodies, the civilized body is a great boon. At that time we can make further progress. Either we can transfer to other planets... The standard of living, comforts, are many, many thousands times better than this planet. But in this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, we get information that within this material universe, wherever you go, either you remain in this planet or you go to the moon planet or to the sun planet, or there are millions and trillions of planets... The highest planetary system is called Brahmaloka. There the duration of life is very, very great. You cannot calculate even twelve hours of their days. These are described in this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam arhad yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. Four hundred... Three thousand years is the duration... Four hundred and, yes, four hundred and three thousands of years, solar years, is the one unit of yuga. Such thousand yugas makes twelve hours of the Brahmaloka planet. Similarly, they live there for a hundred years. But these four things, namely birth, death, old age, and disease, these four things are everywhere, either you live in this planet or moon planet or sun planet or any other planet. The duration of life may be very, very great. Just like in comparison to the ant, our life, human being*-we have got hundred years age-so to the ant it may be very astonishing: "Oh, how such a great length of time one can live?" Similarly, we may be astonished by hearing twelve hours duration of Brahmaloka, but actually there is. But still, you cannot avoid death. Death is there. So from this book we understand from the version of Kṛṣṇa, or God, that ā-brahma bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. Even if you go to the highest planetary system, again you have to come back. In this way, all living entities are rotating from one planet to another, from one species of life to another. But we don't want this actually. If I say that "If I give you a nice body, youthful body, and eternal body, full of knowledge," would you not like to have it? Nobody likes old age, nobody likes death, nobody likes to die, nobody likes to take birth again, enter into the womb of mother and live there ten months. You are tight packed. Interviewer: Let's pause here and let the tape just advance a little bit. That would make a good segment. [break] Prabhupāda: ...consciousness, the next question. Now, this is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So for attaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there are several stages. The first stage is faith or inquisitiveness. Just like you have come to me. This is the first stage, out of inquisitiveness or some faith, that "These people are teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have heard it is very nice. Let us see what it is." This is the first stage. This is the first stage. One should be inquisitive and have little faith or little respect for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "It is very nice, they are speaking, doing nice work." This is the first stage. The second stage is that in the first stage, if you find it, it is interesting, then the second stage is to associate with us, to understand more. Just like we are having our classes three days in a week. We are having class morning daily, but for public we are holding classes in the evening from seven to nine in our temple. Perhaps you know. You have been yesterday there? So we are holding classes there and discussing on this book, having kīrtana, distribution of prasādam. So it is very nice. There is no labor. Simply you come, you hear nice songs, you dance, you take nice food, you hear nice philosophy, and you think over, and you may go home. We don't ask anybody that "You press your nose like this, you make your head down like this, make exercise like this." We don't ask anybody. But people automatically like to dance with us. Although dance is labor, but they like it. So the next stage is to associate with us, to understand more and more. This is the second stage, to associate. First stage, faith and respect, and second stage, association. The third stage, if by association one becomes serious, that "I shall become a regular student of Swamiji," that is third stage. That is called initiation. Just like these boys. They are initiated. So in that stage they are guided by me. They follow strictly. Just like we have got for the initiated students we have got six, four principles. We do now allow illicit sex life. No, we do not allow these boys or girls sex life without being married. Yes. This is one regulation. We don't allow them to take anything which is not offered to the Deity. So we offer to the Deity foodstuff, grains, fruits, flowers, milk products, in that way, no meat, no egg, nothing of the sort. Simple food. They are nutritious. We prepare very... Perhaps you have participated in our love feast in Sundays. Yes. Woman: We're going to... We'll come next Sunday. *Prabhupāda: They like it. So many, hundreds of preparations... We can give at least three hundred preparation, many varieties, simply on grains and milk product and fruits. That's all. We don't kill animals, don't kill birds, no. But we make very nice preparations. Everyone likes. So this is one of the restriction, that you cannot take anything which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the second restriction. And the third restriction is no intoxication-no smoking, no drinking, even no tea taking, no coffee taking, nothing: These American boys they are accustomed to all these habits very naturally, but they have given up. They don't take. In our temple there is no tea-taking, no coffee-taking, no cigarette smoking, nothing of the sort, you see. This is the third restriction. And the fourth restriction is that you cannot take part in gambling or some unnecessary sporting because you have to utilize your time. Your time is very short. If you miss this opportunity of human form of life... Because we do not know when death is coming. It is not that because I am old, I am nearing death, and you are young, you are not nearing death. Who knows that you may die before me? So there is no certainty. So the principle is that because this human form of life is so important to perfect oneself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he should not waste even a minute. You see? So therefore we don't allow unnecessary sporting. You see? This is simply waste of time. So no illicit sex life, no meat-eating or animal food, no intoxication, no gambling. So every student has to follow these four prin... Otherwise I don't initiate. I don't take cheap students, that "You can do whatever you like, and you pay me some money. I give you some mantra, and you become God." I don't say like that. I don't bluff like that. I have not come to earn money from your country, but I have come to your country to give you something sublime, not to take you, not to take from you, not to exploit you, but to give you something sublime. You see? So that is the third stage, initiation. And then, if you are situated in the third stage nicely*-that means if you follow the regulative principles under my direction-then the fourth stage automatically comes. After this third stage, the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, up to eighth, automatically comes. That is gradual development. So in the third stage, if you follow the regulative principle and chant with some prescribed number, numerical strength, then your all misgivings will be over automatically. What are these misgivings? The first misgiving is that I am this body. Everyone is under the concept of this body. This is... I am not this body. That is a fact. But body is changing. There are many examples. One of the example is a very common example. Suppose a man is dead. Now everybody is crying, and if we ask "Why you are crying?" "Oh, my son is dead." I can say, "Your son is lying here. Why you are saying that he is dead?" "No, no. He is dead. He is gone. His body is lying." Therefore he is different from the body. Immediately you can understand. You say, "No, he is gone. His body is lying." Don't you say at that time? So you understand at the time of death that the man was different from the body. But during this lifetime, I was taking care of his body only. Why did I take care of he? Because I did not know him. You see? This is a misgiving. In this way there are so many misgivings. We are situated in a platform of misgivings only, misunderstanding, our present conditional life. Just like if my body, this body, I am different from this body, then how can I claim that America is my country? This is also another misgiving. If I do not belong to this body... I call myself an American or Indian... (coughs) (aside:) Water. Because accidentally this body is born on the land of America, therefore I call myself American, but if I am not this body, then how I am American? This is another misgiving. Yes. Then I am calling you as my son. You are calling him as your son, but what he is? He is a product of your body. So if you are not this body, how he is your son? In this way you go on. As soon as you study nicely that you are not this body, you will find that you belong to none of these. You are free. You see? This is called Brahman realization, spiritual realization, this stage, when you understand that "I am not this body. I do not belong to this country. I do not belong to this family. I do not belong to this society." This is negative. Some philosophers are trying to make these things void. But actually I am existing. I am existing in misunderstanding. But that does not mean I am not existing. I am not void. Just like I am existing within this apartment. But instead of knowing myself, I have identified this apartment: "myself." So to simply to understand that "I am not this apartment" is not perfect knowledge. Then what is my position? What I am actually? When we come to that consciousness... At the present moment, I am conscious of this body, of this country, of this society, of the family. But when I perfectly understand that I am not any of these things, then my consciousness also changes because at the present moment my consciousness is absorbed with all these things. So as soon as I understand that I am not all these, then my consciousness must change, not that my consciousness will stop. If I am in misunderstanding, if I come to the right understanding, that does not mean my understanding is stopped. Rather, my understanding becomes purified. That means if I am not this, then I am this. That we do not know, what is that. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when we are freed from this illusory consciousness and if we are situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we get attachment. Because we are attached to all these things, attached to this body, attached to this society, attached to the country, so many things in relationship with the body. Now, after negativating my identity with this false identification, when I come to the right point, then I understand that I am Kṛṣṇa's. I am Kṛṣṇa's. Then your attachment for Kṛṣṇa increases because you transfer the attachment. Just like a child. A child is attached to play. But when he grows up, his attachment is transferred to study. That does not mean he gives up the attachment for playing, that attachment is lost. No. Attachment must be there, but that is transferred or purified. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means purified consciousness, real consciousness. And the next stage, after being freed from misgivings-attachment for the real identity, ruci. Then āsakti, greater attachment. Then an ecstasy. That means I am coming nearer to God. Because I am God's... In the beginning I told you that we have forgotten our relationship with God. So when we are out of misgivings, we come to the platform of increasing attachment for God. So this attachment, when it is perfectional stage, it is called love of God. Love is here also. Instead of loving God, we are now loving dog. Love is there, but when you are out of misgivings, you transfer your love from dog to God. These are the different stages to come to the... How do you attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness? These are the stages. So if we follow cautiously and sentiently these six stages of development, you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness automatically. [break] ...study. This meditation and breathing exercise is not part of our study. Because we are following a method which is direct method. I will give you the example. Just like there is a skyscraper house, and there are staircases to go to the top floor, say, hundredth floor, and there is elevator also. So if you take advantage of the elevator, you reach immediately hundred floor within a minute, but if you go step by step, step by step, it will take hours. So this meditation process is not possible at the present age. This meditation was recommended, according to Vedic literature, in the golden age, when the duration of life was very, very long, people were peaceful, there was no disturbance. The exact version in the Vedas is ic>kṛte. Kṛte means in the golden age, when everyone is pious. That is called kṛta-yuga, age of kṛta, very pious age. So in those ages people used to live one hundred thousands of years, and they were very pure, there was no sinful activity. In that stage, meditation was possible. Meditation requires certain principles. You have to select a solitary, sacred place. You have to sit alone. You have to close your eyes half, not full. If you close your eyes full, then you will sleep. And you have to concentrate on the tip of your nose, and you have to sit straight under posture, and then you have to exercise the breathing. If your inhalation is going this side, then you have to breathe this side. There are so many processes. So these things are not possible. Because our mind is so disturbed, we are engaged in so many outside work, it is not possible to concentrate on... You cannot find out a solitary place. The so-called meditation going on in a class. That is not meditation. Meditation cannot be performed in that way. It must be very solitary place, sacred place, and you have to do it alone. You see? So these facilities are not available at the present age. Besides that, that meditation process will take you a very long time to realize yourself. So meditation is there in our process, but it is a very quick process. What is that? We loudly chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So even if your mind is diverted to some other subject, you will be forced to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. You have to apply your mind. You see? Either you take it, "Oh, somebody is disturbing," or you are enjoying, you have to, you are forced to turn your mind to this side. And if we go on chanting for a short time, the meditation is always there. And with the dancing, the breathing is also there, but it is a shortcut policy. That policy, the yogic meditation or breathing exercise, samādhi, it is already there in our process. But we don't take in that prescribed way of meditation because that is not possible in this age. It is very difficult. So meditation and breathing exercise is not a part of our program, but it is automatically performed by this process of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... That is automatically done. It is so nice process. Then your next question is, "Is diet an important segment of the word?" Yes. Diet is very important thing. Just like when a patient goes to a physician, he prescribes a certain type of diet. Why? That's a practical fact. Why you accept a physician prescription of diet? Suppose a man is suffering from diabetes; his diet is different. A man is suffering from tuberculosis; his diet is different. A man is suffering from typhoid fever; *his diet is different. Therefore diet shall not be extravagant or whimsical. They must be selected. First of all we have to see what is the diet of the human being. Actually I read in some scientific magazine, a medical magazine, that our teeth is not meant for eating meats. These teeth are meant for eating fruits. Actually the shape of the teeth is like that, just like sharp knife. You can, apple you can take immediately. But if you take one piece of meat, you cannot eat so easily with these teeth. So first of all you have to understand what is your diet. So your diet is different from animals' diet. You take anything. Even stool is food for a certain animal, but that does not mean I have to eat stool also. Stool may be eatable for a certain type of animal. "Oh, that is not my diet or food." Similarly, we have to discriminate. Now so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious person, we are studying Kṛṣṇa conscious. What is our diet? Our diet is Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam, what is offered, as I told you, that something is offered to Kṛṣṇa. Then we take. We don't take anything direct. Just like these fruits. We have first of all offered to Kṛṣṇa. Here is a plate. Then we take. That is our system. Even we take vegetables, fruits, we don't take directly. We first of all prepare or cut into pieces, offer to the Deity. Then we take. Now, the idea is that we take the remnants of food offered to Kṛṣṇa. Now, when you offer something to some respectable person, you ask him, "What can I offer you?" If I go to your house and if you want to offer me something to eat, you will ask me what I wish to eat. That is the etiquette. So similarly, we have to offer Kṛṣṇa what Kṛṣṇa likes to eat. So how we can know? In this book we have the things, what Kṛṣṇa wants. He says, "You give Me foodstuff, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26] fruits, flowers, grains, milk, like that." So our diet is Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Therefore... Kṛṣṇa wants these things. We prepare these things, and we eat the remnants of food. If Kṛṣṇa says that "You give me meat," then we can offer Kṛṣṇa meat also. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me fruits, flowers, grains." So we have no quarrel with the meat-eaters. Let them do whatever he likes. But our concern is that unless Kṛṣṇa takes, we don't take. So in order to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, this is necessary, just like an important segment of the work. We cannot accept anything which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore this diet, this sort of diet, as you have tasted in our love feast, that is important. We cannot take outside the scope. So in that sense, diet is important. Besides that, from health point of view also, you require a balanced food-carbohydrate, starch, protein, and fat. That is scientific. So fat we are getting from milk, butter. So if I can get fat from milk and butter, why shall I kill the cow and animal? This is humanity. My necessity is to get some milk and fat. The cow is supplying you milk and fat sufficiently. Why should you kill it? I am going to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious, and I am killing another God's creature? So it is very important work to select that: if anyone is serious to become God conscious or Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore in our program meat-eating is forbidden. So that is very important in that sense. The next question is, "So, what is the significance..." I think I've already explained this. "Is there a probationary period for Kṛṣṇa consciousness or does one attain this enlightening according to his own rate of development?" Yes, everything requires little enthusiasm. Just like a boy is going to school with no enthusiasm, and a boy is going to school with nice enthusiasm. One boy is passing in the first class, first division and another boy is failing or he's passing in the third division. So the probation period, of course, I've already explained: to associate with us, the second stage. First stage is faith and respect, the second stage is association. That is probational period. And so far attaining enlightenment according to one's rate of development; that development depends on your enthusiasm; *how far you are serious. But one should become very serious. That is the law in every sphere of achievement. So for attaining to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one should be very much enthusiastic. Yes. He must attain to the perfectional stage in this life. And then one should be patient also. Enthusiasm does not mean if I attain something immediately the result is immediate. No. The result may be delayed but we should not be disturbed. But we must go on working with enthusiasm. This is called patience. Enthusiasm, patience and confidence. Because we believe in Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that if you do this you get this result. Therefore I must have confidence. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that simply by understanding Him, what He is, how does He come, how does He walk, one immediately gets passport to enter into the spiritual kingdom. So we must have confidence that I'm working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I must go back to Godhead, back to home. This is confidence. So enthusiasm, patience, confidence. And ... yaḥ syād ... niscyad... tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. Simply enthusiasm but no work. But you must be engaged in the prescribed duties of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you must keep always yourself in the association of devotees. Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco Interviewer: Swami, will you get a little closer to that microphone, if you will. You are the head of ISKCON, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Is it a church? Prabhupāda: It is not exactly a church, but it is an institution for understanding the science of God. Interviewer: Could you tell people how you are dressed today, what's the significance of your clothes? Prabhupāda: About the significance of our institution? Interviewer: No, about the way your clothes, the way you're dressed today. Uh, the robes. Prabhupāda: Oh, the robe? Yes, I am a sannyāsī. The sannyāsī is the highest status of human social division. According to Vedic culture there are four divisions of human society. Brahmacārī, student life; then householder, gṛhastha; and then vānaprastha, retired life; and then sannyāsa life, means preaching transcendental knowledge to the society from door to door. So this dress... In Vedic culture, there are different dresses for different persons. So this saffron colored dress means that he is admitted without any introduction anywhere because he's understood to be a man of transcendental knowledge. And the householders receive them and take knowledge from them. That is the system of Vedic culture. Interviewer: You also have a garland of flowers around your neck. Prabhupāda: That is offered by the disciples as a matter of respect to the spiritual master. It is not necessary that a sannyāsī have a garland like this, but if it is offered with respect he does not refuse. Interviewer: Now, one more thing, you have some paint or color down your forehead and your nose and on all your followers who are here in the studio. Prabhupāda: Yes. These marks are a temple of Kṛṣṇa. We mark these different twelve parts of the body. The idea is that we are being protected by God from all sides. Interviewer: One other thing, I went to shake hands with everybody and I found that all your right hands were wrapped. What is the significance of that? Prabhupāda: Yes. That wrapping... It is not exactly wrapped. It is a bag for our beads. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. So the beads are supposed to be sacred and therefore we keep it in a bag so that it may not touch the dust or any other impurities. So it is not wrapping, it is covering of the sacred beads. *Interviewer: Now I just want to read one section here. I think you'll be able to... "The International Society for Krishna Consciousness began when Swami Bhaktivedanta arrived from India with $2 on his person, a metal suitcase full of ancient*-looking books and a cotton cloth robe, colored yellow, as a sign of the renounced order of life. In India, men of his order are completely dedicated to propagating the spiritual life of a mendicant wanderer. He had wandered across the sea upon the order issued to him by his guru who told him he should prepare to go to America to teach the principles taught in the Bhagavad-gītā and to translate the sixty volumes of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam into English." Now, are you a guru? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members of the society, they're supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language. Interviewer: Guru means teacher. *Prabhupāda: Guru means not exactly teacher. Guru, the word, means heavy. Heavy. H*-e-a-v-y, heavy. Interviewer: Is guru and swami the same thing? Prabhupāda: Swami means practically the same idea. Swami means the master of the senses. One who has not control over senses, he cannot become guru. The renounced order means he's strictly away from all kinds of sense gratification, especially sex life. Therefore, he's called swami. Swami means the master. One who has become the master of the senses, he can become the spiritual master of the society. That is the idea. Interviewer: The swami... Now did I understand you to say the swami has no sex life? Prabhupāda: No, certainly not. Interviewer: Certainly not. All right, now when you... Prabhupāda: Well, actually sex life is allowed only to the householders. According to Vedic culture, sex life is restricted. There are four divisions of society. The brahmacārī is strictly forbidden for sex life. The vānaprastha, they are also forbidden for sex life, and the sannyāsī, they are also forbidden for sex life. So out of four divisions, three divisions are strictly forbidden for sex life. Only the householders they can have restricted sex life with married wife simply for begetting children. That is the Vedic culture. Interviewer: Only for propagating children. Prabhupāda: That's all. Interviewer: Then there is a similarity to Catholicism. The priest is supposed to be celibate. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Anywhere there is spiritual conception, sex life is not indulged. Anywhere, either it may be Christianity or Hinduism... Sex life is materialism. That is opposite number of spiritualism. So people are trained gradually to refrain from sex life. And in the sannyāsa life he's completely trained. Therefore he's allowed to move in the society for preaching spiritual education. Interviewer: The whole world has heard of the Maharishi Mahesh. Is he part of your order? Prabhupāda: No. I have heard so much in the paper. Interviewer: He is the world's most famous guru at the present time. Prabhupāda: He's not guru. But he's advertised his name like that (laughs). A guru is different thing. But people are, in your country, in the western part of the country, of the world, people are after some spiritual information. So anyone who comes professing as spiritualist, he is welcome, and if he flatters, then it is very convenient to get followers. So we don't follow exactly in that way. We follow exactly the principles of Vedic ways of life. So in that way, sex life for a sannyāsī is strictly prohibited. Interviewer: So many of the people are going to him for meditation. Is meditation part of your philosophy? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But meditation as this Maharshi or any other swami or..., are professing, that is not exactly the process of meditation. The standard meditation is described in Bhagavad*-gītā. That is very difficult job. You have to select a solitary place, you have to sit in a certain posture, you have to regulate your life, complete celibacy, eating, sleeping... There are so many rules and regulations that that sort of meditation is absolutely impossible for the present way of life. For the present generation, the chanting, vibration of holy name of God, is recommended in the scriptures. It is said that meditation was possible in the Satya-yuga, when people were cent percent pure. And they are... For the present, mostly, people are impure. So they cannot execute meditation as it is described in the standard scriptures. Interviewer: Is yoga part of meditation? Prabhupāda: Yoga is a very broad term. Yoga means to connect with the Absolute Truth. That is yoga. Yoga means connecting link. So there are different varieties of yoga. Just like one staircase, it is the connecting link to the top floor. So that is, everywhere you can say staircase, but one who has crossed a few steps and one who has crossed a few floors, they are not on the same level. *Interviewer: I'd like to read one thing. This is evidently said by a man named Swami Śiva Premānada of New York's yoga center. He said, "If one has the time to put in about eight or ten hours a day for ten years, one might develop the power to see through a wall through meditation. I've seen people develop X*-ray vision, but I've never seen the point of paying such a heavy price for it." Prabhupāda: But I don't think it is practical that one can meditate for eight to ten hours or twelve hours. Interviewer: For ten years. Prabhupāda: But it is... Yes, for ten years. It is most impractical proposition. Therefore, as recommended, we have to follow the regulation as recommended in the scriptures. For the present age, this meditation. Now, last night we had saṅkīrtana in the public library... Where is that? Oakland. So all people immediately joined us as soon as we began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Immediately there is effect and there is no rules and regulation that you have to do this or that. Simply join, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... We had lectured in the YMCA Sunday School, little boys and children, they also joined with us. We performed this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting in the park, the children, old men, young men, everyone joined. It is... Interviewer: Do you have a temple here, Swami, or do you meet in libraries? Prabhupāda: No, we have got a temple here. Actually it is Frederick Street, 518. Interviewer: What does your temple look like? *Prabhupāda: It is temple, just there is Deity, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and it's very, a place of sanctuary. If you go there you'll find immediately some impulse of spiritual idealism. Interviewer: Do you have altars? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Do you have any of the other things you find in the inside of churches? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, we have altars, we have pictures. We offer fruits, flowers, incense, and immediately, by combination of these things, there is some spiritual atmosphere, and there is chanting. So people enjoy it very nicely. Interviewer: We're talking with Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, head of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. If you have questions our numbers are 478-3456, in the East Bay 832-9707, in San Jose 272-1233. [break] A.C. Bhaktivedanta, International Society for Krishna Consciousness. What does the word Kṛṣṇa mean? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is, means all*-attractive. Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Would you put those earphones on, Swami? (gives phone numbers again) Hello, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami. Caller (Gargamuni): Hello, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gargamuni: I'd like to ask a question. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gargamuni: Why is this human form of life, why is this human life in such a diseased condition with war, pestilence, and famine? Prabhupāda: These are miserable conditions inflicted by material nature just to remind the conditioned soul that this conditioned life in the material nature is not for you. There is another place where you can live very peacefully. Just like in the prison life there is always infliction of miseries. If in the prison life one is comfortably situated, then he'll never go out, he'll try to live there. So these material inflictions of miseries reminds us that this place is not suitable for us. It is not our place. Our place is back to Godhead, back to home. Therefore these are the reminders that you must leave this place. Gargamuni: Yes. Also, what is our true identity? Prabhupāda: What is that? Gargamuni: What is our true identity? Prabhupāda: Actual identity? Gargamuni: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Actual identity is that you are spirit soul. And this material body is your covering. Just like dress. Just like when you dress, the real body is there. Similarly, we are within this material body. So we are taking more care for the dress and not for the body actually. But when a body is dead we can understand that there is something missing. That missing thing is the soul. In the modern educational field there is no department of knowledge to understand that what is that missing part. There are so many theories, but they are not practical. Therefore we have to understand the soul and its constitution from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad*-gītā. Then we can understand our identity actually. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that persons who are identifying themselves with this material body, they are not actually human beings. They are counted amongst the asses and cows. So that is ignorance or illusion. Interviewer: Thank you, caller. Gargamuni: Oh. Interviewer: Now, I want to ask you something. You said we live in a bad world, but through our mind, our soul, we can escape. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Or through Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We're not solving anything then by doing that. We're sort of, in our own mind, we're running away. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that running away is the best sol... Suppose you are put in a prison house. The solution is to go out of it. If you want to make adjustment of the prison house, that is impossible. You may be a first*-class prisoner or second-class prisoner, third-class prisoner, but you will remain a prisoner. But if you want freedom, then you must go out of the prison walls. Interviewer: But I notice you have many, you seem to have a lot of young men who are part of your organization. These young men must face the material problems of today like the draft and Vietnam and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Isn't it difficult to belong to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and exist in this world we must exist in? Prabhupāda: Yes, the thing is that persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness anywhere, even they are put into a very uncomfortable position, they are not suffering in the same way as ordinary man. Interviewer: Oh, we have people who want to talk to you. Caller, you're on the air with the Swami on KGO. Caller (Gargamuni again): Thank you. Hello, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes? Gargamuni: What is the perfection of this life? Prabhupāda: The perfection of this life is to understand oneself, what I am. This is the beginning. Why I am suffering? If there is any solution of this suffering? And there are so many things. These questions should be there. Unless a man is awakened to these questions, that "What I am? Why I am suffering? Wherefrom I have come, and where I have to go?" then he's considered on the animal level. Because animals, they have no such questions. It is in the human form of life these questions are there. And their answers are all there in the scriptures. So if we are inquisitive and follow the answers from authoritative sources, then the solution of life is there. Interviewer: Thank you caller. So, know yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Know yourself. I have some more questions. We're talking with Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, head of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. (radio ad:) ...And you can sell anything by reaching more than two million who read the Chronicle and the Examiner. [break] Girl caller: ...Gargamuni Prabhu. All glories to Gargamuni Prabhu! [break] Interviewer: You believe that sex is only for having children. You do not believe in alcohol or the use of any stimulants. Prabhupāda: No, that is prohibited. Interviewer: What do you believe in? Prabhupāda: We believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have to purify. Just like this is also a belief, that you will be happy by drinking alcohol. That is your consciousness. I don't believe in that. Interviewer: Do you have certain dietary rules for which you do not eat? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Interviewer: What do you not eat? Prabhupāda: We don't eat anything which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. We first of all prepare foodstuff as recommended in the scripture. They are mostly from vegetable, grains, fruits, milk. So we have got enough food. Interviewer: No meat of any kind. Prabhupāda: No. No meat, no onion, no garlic, no intoxication, no liquor, we don't smoke even, we don't take tea, coffee. We simply take what is absolutely necessary for keeping the body fit to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't indulge in luxury..., or for the satisfaction of the tongue. Interviewer: All right. Caller, you're on the air with the Swami on KGO. Caller: Yes, Swamiji, I'd like to know where in India was your native place. Interviewer: Where in India did you come from originally? Prabhupāda: Oh, I was born in Calcutta. But after my acceptance of this renounced order of life, I am inhabitant of Vṛndāvana. Caller: Of where? *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. V*-r-i-n-d-a-v-a-n. Vṛndāvana is a sacred place. It is about 90 miles south of New Delhi, capital of India. Caller: Yes, yes, I see. One thing I just wanted to clarify, did you... are you are follower of Lord Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Caller: That's all I wanted to know. Thank you. Interviewer: The callers know more about the subject today evidently than I do. Now, your guru told you to be a wanderer. Prabhupāda: Yes. A sannyāsī means itinerant teacher. He will wander and teach from door to door. Interviewer: When was it that you arrived from India with $2? Prabhupāda: It was in September, 1965. Interviewer: Several years ago. Prabhupāda: About three years before. Interviewer: Now, you met a gentleman by the name of Harvey Cohen? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: And how has he helped you? Prabhupāda: Yes, in the beginning he helped me. Because I rented one room. That was $72 per month. So... Interviewer: Was this in New York? *Prabhupāda: In New York, yes, Seventy*-second Street West. So whatever there was shortage, he was supplying. I was getting some money by contributions in my lectures. But in the beginning my all expenditures were not sufficient collection. So the deficiency he was giving me. Interviewer: Did he aid you in setting up the first center or temple? Prabhupāda: No, I started my temple in 1967, first July. Interviewer: In New York. Prabhupāda: New York, yes. Interviewer: How many temples are there now? Prabhupāda: Now we have got six temples. One in New York, one in San Francisco, one in Los Angeles, one in Boston, one in Montreal, and one in Santa Fe. And another one of our students has gone to Buffalo, he's on the professional, for starting another temple. Interviewer: How many people belong to these six temples? Prabhupāda: In each temple there are average about fifty people. Interviewer: Fifty people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Are they mostly young people? From the calls we've been getting and from the people here in the studio... Prabhupāda: Yes, they are invariably all young boys and girls. Yes. Interviewer: All right, hold for one second. We're talking with Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, head of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. [break] And our telephones are open to you. (gives phone numbers again). What hair cut? Oh, is there any significance of your hair cut over there? Is there a microphone over there we can get you on? Put that other one over there. Because we have several young men here in the studio with the Swami. What is the significance of your hair cut? Subāla: Well, my head is shaved and I have a, what's known as a śikhā on the back of my head. This śikhā is a sign that I'm a Vaiṣṇava, which is a follower of Kṛṣṇa's. Interviewer: Do you live here? Subāla: I'm from the Santa Fe temple, I'm just visiting here. Interviewer: How did you end up in this Kṛṣṇa order? Subāla: I was looking for a man who could tell me the answers to the questions that Swamiji mentioned before, such as "What am I? What is God? What am I doing here?" And Swamiji was the first one who could answer these questions satisfactorily. And I could see that the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is no phony bluff. I could see it really works because I saw people making progress in it. And I made progress myself by chanting. So I accepted him as my spiritual master, because he was the only one... Interviewer: Do you accept a new name? Subāla: Yes. Interviewer: Well, what is your name? Subāla: Subala dāsa Adhikārī. Interviewer: So each one accepts a new name. Subāla: Yes. The initiation by the spiritual master is known as the second birth. You enter the spiritual world by taking a second birth. Your spiritual life begins. Interviewer: Do you still live in, quote, the rest of the world, the outside world, or is your whole life within the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Subāla: My whole life is within Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but yet, at the same time, I function within the world at large. Interviewer: We have a lot of people who have some questions here, and caller, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami. Hello. Caller: Hello? Interviewer: Go ahead, sir. Caller: Is this Swami? Prabhupāda: Yes. Caller: What is God? Prabhupāda: What is God? That's your question? Caller: Yes. Prabhupāda: God means the controller. Everywhere we have got some controller. So... But you will find there is another controller over the controller. So if you go on searching one after another, controller and the supercontroller, and, or the next controller, next controller, in this way, when you come to a place when the controller is absolute, there is no other controller, He is God. Interviewer: Thank you caller. That's... Something... I get the impression that all the calls today are people within Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I would like to hear some other people with questions here. Caller, you're on the air with the Swami on KGO. Caller: Yes. Swami, you say you have to know yourself. Now, how does a person go about knowing when he knows himself, who he is and what he is. In other words, when does he reach the stage where he says, "Hah! I know where I am and what I am." Prabhupāda: Yes, there are two different processes of acquiring knowledge. One process is to research oneself by his own endeavor, by his limited sense speculation. And another process is to know from the authority. Just like deductive process, we say, man is mortal. This knowledge is received from higher authorities, just like our teacher or parents, we understand that man is mortal. Another process is one can make research whether actually man is mortal. Caller: Well, is there some kind of a spiritual signal you get within yourself that tells you this? Prabhupāda: No, your question is what I am? So this what I am, you can search yourself by your mental speculation, that is one way. Another way to understand your position, from higher authority. So we take this process. We understand what I am from higher authority, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that He is God, and He says, "All these living entities are My part and parcels." So we are component parts of the Supreme Lord. Therefore as the component part of machine is to cooperate with the full machine, so our duty is to cooperate with the Supreme Lord. That is our identity. Interviewer: Thank you, caller. Caller: Thank you. Interviewer: To join Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a total commitment, then, to your way of life. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is total commitment to the way of life as it is prescribed in the Bhagavad*-gītā, the science of God. Interviewer: Must one renounce his present religion? Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Religion is a kind of faith. So naturally, if you go to the higher standard of life, the stereotype faith does not act there. So this understanding, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is transcendental to all religious faith. Faith you can change. But this you cannot change. Your constitutional position as part and parcel of God is never to be changed. You may accept a faith as Christianity or accept a faith, Mohammedanism. That is a mental situation. But this is your actual constitutional situation that you are part and parcel of the Supreme. That cannot be changed. Interviewer: What happens in your temples. Do you have services like other religions? *Prabhupāda: Yes, generally we chant this mahāmantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and then we deliver speeches from Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and then there are questions, we answer, and in that way the audience and the disciples they become enlightened and they advance. Interviewer: But there's no sermon as we would know in other churches? Prabhupāda: That is, you can call sermon, because there is prayer song and there is, I mean to say, recitation from scriptures... Interviewer: Well, you have six chapters, so evidently you cannot be everywhere at once. Who is in charge of a temple when you're not here? *Prabhupāda: The students are being trained. The students, they also speak the same thing. There is nothing new. I also speak from the Bhagavad*-gītā and the students also speak from the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā is the same in all the centers. But it may be because I have little more experience I can explain them a little more nicely. And the students, they also explain according to their experience. But the principle is the same. Interviewer: Caller, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami. Caller (woman): Ah, yeah. I'm not involved with it, but I'm curious. I'm wondering if there's any similarity between meditation and hypnosis? In other words, the hypnotic state? *Interviewer: Or is meditation self*-hypnosis? Is that what you're asking? Caller: Is it similar? It sounds like it might be. Interviewer: Swami? *Prabhupāda: I do not know what is self*-hypnosis. Interviewer: Hypnotizing yourself. Prabhupāda: No, it is no question of hypnotizing. Meditation means to search out what I am. Just like if you sit down quietly, if you see your body, first of all see your finger, and question whether I am hand? You'll say, no. Whether I am this head? You'll say no. Whether I am this leg? Because everywhere I will say, "It is my hand, it is my head, it is my leg, it is my sole." Everything "my." So you have to find out what is "I." Caller: I see. *Prabhupāda: Unless you come to that point, what is "I," there is no meaning of meditation. Then the meditation is finished. Now, the activities after meditation begins. Meditation is to search out what you are. As soon as you know your identity, then your real activity begins. So we take it from Bhagavad*-gītā what is my real identity and begin our service. So that is called devotional service. Interviewer: We're talking with Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta, head of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. We'll be back in a minute. [break] KGO. Caller: Yes, I wanted to ask the Swami if he didn't think that the teachings of Jesus Christ expressed exactly what he's saying. I'm not speaking of orthodox Christianity as such, but the essence of what Jesus said about the Father within and "If thine eye be single, thy body shall be full of light," and the beautiful phrase that he said, "Before Abraham was, I am." Has he studied anything about the teachings of Jesus? Interviewer: Swami? Prabhupāda: We don't disagree with the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ because he's speaking also the same thing which we are also speaking, about the science of God. Interviewer: But she, I think she's saying, couldn't you just have taken the teachings of Jesus Christ as your religion? Prabhupāda: But there is already adjustment... Caller: (breaking in) No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I believe that the Swami and many others who practice meditation and study the *Gītā* are really dealing with the same premise, the first cause, that Jesus spoke of. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Caller: Right? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Caller: Yes, that's what I wanted to know. I think there is a comparison, not between organized religion as such, but just getting down to the bare facts of what Jesus spoke about. I think there's a similarity. *Prabhupāda: There is similarity, but one thing is, just like mathematics taught in the lower class. Two plus two equal to four is equally applicable in higher mathematics, two plus two equal to four. In higher mathematics it does not become two plus two equal to five. Similarly, the teachings of Bible or teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā are the same, the same "two plus two." Caller: Right, right... *Prabhupāda: But in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it may be taken as higher mathematics. That's all. *Caller: You know, may I ask you one thing, I read some parts of the Bhagavad*-gītā is it? And it said that knowledge is enveloped in ignorance, hence all men are deluded. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caller: And I thought that was a profound... Prabhupāda: Real, our real knowledge is covered by delusion. Caller: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, the real knowledge is that I am spirit. Caller: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are identifying ourself with this body. Therefore we are covered in our knowledge, actual knowledge. Interviewer: Thank you caller, very much. Bye bye. Twelve minutes before four on KGO. And, caller, you're on the air with the Swami on KGO. Caller: Yes, hello Swami. I would like to know how you get your money to make all your trips to India and New York and Mexico. Who provides you with money? Prabhupāda: I was provided free passage in a shipping company. Caller: You was what? Prabhupāda: Free passage. Caller: Free passage. Who pays for that free passage? Prabhupāda: Oh, free passage, there was no question of payment. The shipping company carried me free. Interviewer: Shipping company carried him free. Caller: The shipping company carried you free. Who buys your food for you? Prabhupāda: When I came, I came with some introduction letter. So my guests, they provided me. *Caller: Your guests provide you. In other words, you're a free*-loader. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Caller: Why do you set up your church into an area like the Haight*-Ashbury? Your so-called temple? *Prabhupāda: Our so*-called temple? *Caller: Your so*-called temple. Why do you set up a place like that in the Haight-Ashbury? Interviewer: I'll rephrase it. I'm going to punch her out. Why is your church located in the area of the hippies? Prabhupāda: It is not for particularly selected the hippies' quarter, but the boys they found a cheaper place in that quarter. Therefore they occupied that place. Interviewer: Cheapest place you could find. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we are not very rich institution. So we found it cheaper. So we selected it. It is not for the reason that because it is hippie quarter, therefore we selected it. No. Interviewer: Actually, most hippies couldn't join your religion because they take drugs... Prabhupāda: Yes, we are completely different from the hippies, because hippies they are addicted to sex and intoxication, and these things are completely forbidden in our temple. Interviewer: You do perform wedding ceremonies? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: What is your wedding ceremony like? Prabhupāda: The same chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Is it considered a legal wedding ceremony in this country? Prabhupāda: Yes, our society is incorporated under the religious act of New York state. Interviewer: All right, caller, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami. Caller: I'd like to tell your guest that the other day I received a beautiful letter from the Boston āśrama from Miss Prudence Farrow, Miss Mia Farrow's sister... Are you listening? Interviewer: Yeah, you got a letter from Mia Farrow's... Caller: No, her sister, yes, Prudence, from this gentleman's Boston āśrama. Prabhupāda: No. Interviewer: No, it's some other group in Boston, she doesn't belong to this Swami's group. Caller: Okay, okay. Interviewer: Mia Farrow's sister? Devotee: He's confusing us with Maharishi. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. We'll be back in a minute. [break] Could we hear the chant maybe with everybody here? Is it possible? Can we get some microphones over there? You didn't bring what? Devotee: We can use our hands. *Interviewer: Get everybody on the mike. Okay. (Prabhupāda and devotees all chant in unison, clapping hands, for a few minutes) (Prema*-dhvani by Prabhupāda) Interviewer: That is the opening of your ceremony? Prabhupāda: That is, at the end we... Interviewer: At the end. Prabhupāda: Yes, thanks(?) to the devotees. Interviewer: All right, thank you. Caller, you're on the air with the Swami on KGO. Interviewer: Okay. Karma, is this a part of your religion? Prabhupāda: Yes, karma. Karma means work, fruitive work. As you work, as you sow... Caller: I'll take my answer on the air please, okay? Interviewer: Go ahead, Swami. She's just going to listen to your answer on the radio. Go ahead with your description of karma. Prabhupāda: Karma means fruitive work. Just like you are laboring for some wages. You get your wages. Similarly, this material world our work is rewarded. Good work is rewarded with good benefit and bad work is punished. This is the law of karma. Interviewer: And the other question is "Do you feel God is good?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: We are out of time, we want to thank you very much for... Prabhupāda: God is good, yes, certainly. (devotees laugh) Interviewer: ...for all of you here. And your local temple is at 518 Frederick here in San Francisco. Should I give the phone number in case people want information? Guru dāsa: All right. Interviewer: Phone number is 564-6670. Oh, you changed it? What is it now? Guru dāsa: 731-9671. (end) Talk in Studio -- March 13, 1968, San Francisco Prabhupāda: What is this maker, the trademark? Gargamuni: Concord. Prabhupāda: Concord, yes. Concord is famous tape recorder company. (tapping microphone) It is all right? Yamunā: Oh yes, Swamiji. It can also, it can be an amplification system. Gargamuni: See, if you talk... (feedback) Yamunā: The thing is they're too close to one another so there's a feedback. You have to be twelve feet away. Then it will amplify. That's what we were using in all of our speaking engagements. Gargamuni: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh, it acts as amplifier also? So I'll have to speak from here? Gargamuni: No. Yamunā: You don't have to... If all, the two microphones weren't so close, then it would be... We wouldn't have this noise, and you could speak as you like to speak. Prabhupāda: So Gargamuni wants that prayer? Solo, solo? Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: You also like that? Yamunā: Oh. (Prabhupāda chuckles) If it isn't too much energy, Swamiji, that would be very beautiful. Prabhupāda: All right. *Gargamuni: Also, when you used to sing in New York, Vande 'Haṁ, you would add on Cintāmaṇi. Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ. Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes. You shall, I shall...? I shall pray that? Gargamuni: Oh yes, that's nice, that one. Yamunā: What does that mean, Swamiji, that new prayer? Prabhupāda: Cintāmaṇi... That is description of Kṛṣṇaloka. *Yamunā: From the Brahma*-saṁhitā? Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have? Yamunā: Yes, I have a copy of it. Prabhupāda: Sit down? Why do you keep there? Gargamuni: So it's not too loud. Prabhupāda: Oh. (Prabhupāda chants Cintāmaṇi and other prayers) Morning Walk -- March 20, 1968, San Francisco *Prabhupāda: The symptoms of Kali*-yuga have already begun, five thousand years past. And it will increase. [break] ...proud of advancing, but these things are important items of human civilization. They are decreasing. [break] *Mālatī: ...world now where people, they already, if they live to be twenty*-five or thirty, like you explained last night, that was a ripe old age. There are tribes in the world where people live to the age of thirty, and that is considered a ripe age. That is considered old age. And they usually die about thirty or thirty-two. Prabhupāda: Where? Mālatī: In places in South America and Africa. So now, as the age of Kali progresses, will those people just eventually be diminished and wiped out because they already live so short? Prabhupāda: Not wiped out. Nothing is wiped out. The species remain. Maybe somewhere, maybe somewhere else. Nothing is wiped out. Mālatī: They could go to another planet? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many places. The living entity is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā as sarvaga. Sarvaga means he can go anywhere within this universe. He can go in the spiritual sky also. Sarvaga means including everywhere, if he likes. As I explained yesterday, last night, yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. If he likes, he can go to the planets of the demigods, to the Pitrloka, he can remain here, or if he likes, he can go to the planet of Kṛṣṇa. He has got this freedom. Just like there are many government posts. You can select any one of them, but you must be qualified for that. So it is a question of qualification, how you can go to the planets of the demigods, how you can go to the planet of the pitṛs. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā [Bg. 14.18]. If you develop your modes of goodness, then you go to the, promoted to the higher planets because in the higher planets, the third-class living entities are not allowed. Don't you see that in here also, in America, for permanent visa we have to undergo so many formalities? Why? The restriction is there, that American government cannot allow everyone to become a permanent resident here. Restriction. Similarly, in higher planets, only those who have developed the quality of goodness... The quality of goodness contains those eight principles: religiosity, truthfulness, cleanliness... So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā [Bg. 14.18]. Sattva means quality of goodness. So one has to develop the quality of goodness. Not an upstart, simply having a play sputnik, he wants to go to the Candraloka, moon planet. It is not possible. What quality he has got? He will immediately die. Temperature is... (end) Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 23, 1968, San Francisco Devotee (1) (girl): March 23rd, Stow Lake, walk with Swamiji. *Prabhupāda: First thing is that calculation of Candra, moon planet, there are different views. Different scientists, they have different views. It is not a standard. They have not agreed to the... Somebody says something, somebody says another thing. Speculation. That's all. But that idea, that it is very low in temperature, that is mentioned in Bhāgavata. You cannot live in the water. You have to qualify yourself. (Sound of ducks). Just see. Their body is made just suitable for the water. So you have to qualify yourself. That is... Just like, in the spiritual sky they can live only spiritual body, and material body cannot live there. Material body is not allowed there. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. Those who are too much passionate, they are meant to live in this planet. This planetary system, status. There are many other planets like this world. So they are allowed to live here. Here all living entities, they are very much passionate. And adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ. And there are other planets, they are dark, dark planets, below this earthly planet. And the animals, they are in darkness. Although they're on this park, but they do not know where they are, darkness. Their knowledge is not developed. This is the result of the modes of ignorance. And those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are neither in darkness, nor in passion, nor in goodness. They are transcendental. So if one cultivates Kṛṣṇa consciousness nicely, he is at once promoted to the Kṛṣṇaloka. That is wanted. You are all chanting sixteen rounds? No? (laughs) Śarādīyā: I did at first but then I slipped back. Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult? Mālatī: No, we do not know how yet to regulate our time too well. Some days we chant sixteen rounds and then the next day, I don't know what happens. I think we sleep too much, I mean I think I sleep too much. Prabhupāda: How many hours you are sleeping? Mālatī: About six to eight. Prabhupāda: That is not much. Sixteen... It takes only two hours, sixteen rounds. Huh? Two hours, or more than that? Mālatī: Two hours is all it takes to do the rounds. *Prabhupāda: So you have to spend two hours for Kṛṣṇa out of twenty*-four. (walks for awhile and chants japa) Yes? Devotee (1): Is there something wrong with sleeping eight hours? Prabhupāda: Sleeping and eating, this is the material disease. Sleeping, eating, mating... So they should be reduced as much as possible. Devotee (1): If you're still tired... Prabhupāda: No, you can sleep till you are refreshed. Somebody's refreshed by sleeping four hours. Somebody is refreshed by sleeping ten hours. Mālatī: But we should not sleep when we have, in place of our devotional service. Prabhupāda: No, of course not. Devotional service is first. Mālatī: So if we miss some sleep we should do it. *Prabhupāda: We should forego sleeping even. The real regulated life is that if sixteen rounds is not completed, then we have to forego sleeping. You should take out hours from sleeping. We should be... The main thing is that we should always be careful that... We are going, we have taken up a very responsible task, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we should be very much careful in discharging the duty. The devotee should be so much careful that he'll always see "Whether this moment is spoiled or utilized?" Avyartha*-kālatvam [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. Avyartha-kālatvam, that "My time may not be wasted." He should be so careful, "Whether my time is being wasted?" and time wasted, the time we engage for our bodily necessities, that is wasted. Generally, conditioned souls, they are simply wasting their time. Only the period which we have engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is utilized. So we should be very much careful whether time is being wasted or being utilized. Devotee (1): Sometimes, well, if you (we) slept less, we could do more for Kṛṣṇa, but at the same time you (we) would be very tired. I mean, you could be... Well, you could regulate that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Practically everything depends on practice. Abhyāsa*-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8]. Abhyāsa-yoga. Abhyāsa-yoga means yoga practice... Practice it. So this whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to practice transferring from one kind of consciousness to another. So we require practice. Just like one man can run few miles. I cannot run even one mile. He has practiced. We see some boys, they run, run on. They practice. Practice it. Strength of the heart increasing by practice. And if I run, my heart will be palpitating. Because I have no practice. So by practice, everything can be attained. Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. [break] ...determination. And this determination is increased by celibacy. Brahmacārya is recommended to keep oneself determined. A brahmacārī, if he determines something, he executes. He has got that strength of mind. Those who are too much addicted to sex life, they cannot be determined. They cannot be fixed-up. They are fluctuating, changing. People are, in modern day, they cannot sit down in a place for a long time. Therefore so much traveling. The traveling business is very prosperous. Everyone wants to travel. They cannot fix, fix up. So the processes recommended, they're very valuable, but it is not possible to follow them all in the present age because everything is reducing. So our method is to pray to Kṛṣṇa to give us the necessary strength. That's all. Otherwise, by regular practice, this age is very difficult. Unfavorable. First thing is memory is very short. We cannot remember. Life is very short. Life is short, at the same time, so much disturbed by anxiety, by disease, by natural disturbances. Roga-śokādibhiḥ. Short life; *that is also disturbed by disease and lamentation. Every moment there is something for which you have to lament. "Oh!" Roga-śokādibhiḥ. And disease. This body is a breeding ground of all kinds of disease. Life is short and it is so much disturbed. So how it is possible to practice? Therefore, this one practice-chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and hearing*-that is very nice. And praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Please give me strength." Hare, "O Energy of Kṛṣṇa, O Kṛṣṇa, I am fallen, I have no strength. Please accept me." That's all. "I have no qualification. I am frail. I am trying, but I am failing." All these appeals should be made. And Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful, He can do anything. Even we, we do not perform, trying our best, if we fail, Kṛṣṇa will help us. Just like a child tries his best, but he falls down. The mother takes up and, "All right. Come on. Walk." Like that. Yes? Devotee (1): Swamiji? Is doing something other than chanting, like going to school and paying attention to what's there, if you're doing that so you can spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is that just as good as chanting? Prabhupāda: Chanting is good everywhere. Devotee (1): Yes, but, I mean, if you can't chant all day. Prabhupāda: If there is some inconvenience in chanting loudly, you can chant slowly. Loudly, slowly... Within mind you can chant. This simple practice, you'll give up all kinds of (microphone rattling)... Devotee (1): Sometimes in school you have your, your mind is focused on their problems that they are, I mean... (plane going overhead) Prabhupāda: Not sometimes. Practically, we are always disturbed. (Walks for awhile) Devotee (1): Swamiji, would it be all right for Cathy to become a devotee? Prabhupāda: I don't follow. Devotee (1): To be initiated. Cathy. To be initiated. She's the girl with the baby. Prabhupāda: Oh. If she can perform the..., there is no objection. Devotee (1): She would like to. Prabhupāda: You are very kind upon her. (laughs) Yes. Vaiṣṇava is very kind. (pause) It is very heavy? Devotee (2) (boy): No, not too heavy. If I had a memory I wouldn't need this. (Prabhupāda laughs) Mālatī: So you're carrying your memory in your hand? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Because memory is reducing, therefore nature is helping to manufacture so many machines. Mālatī: Is that why people are making these machines, because they can't remember? Is that a sign of Kali that there's more machines to help people? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And nowadays in the courts, they use machines. The judges also cannot remember what has been argued between the parties. So they take this tape recorder and give judgement. Because the argument is going on for two days, three days, how much he can remember? And when he gives judgement he has to take consideration of all the arguments, then give his judgement. So this machine helps. Mālatī: If somebody had a big dollar bill the judge would remember. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mālatī: If somebody gave the judge a big dollar bill he would remember. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means truthfulness is not there, diminished. The same thing. Because truthfulness has diminished, therefore you can bribe anybody and he can tell lie for you. We are in a very precarious condition. Very unfavorable condition. The best thing is to pray Kṛṣṇa, "Please pick me up very soon and let me go back to Your place." If you have to come back again, oh, you do not know how much misery we have to undergo. Because with the advancement of Kali*-yuga, everything is becoming more and more miserable. There is no happiness in family life, there is no happiness in social life, there is no happiness in political life, there is no happiness in earning livelihood. Everything is encumbered. All impediment, full of impediments. Devotee (1): One of my friends said, "(inaudible), you want to tell us everything, so why don't you build a machine to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa for you?" *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Machine was not made for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, but we are utilizing it so that the machine*-maker may be benefited. Because we employ everyone's energy to Kṛṣṇa. So by his energy he has manufactured this machine, so we are employing in Kṛṣṇa's service so that he may be benefited, purified. We are showing him the mercy. Just like one flower picked up from a plant offered to Kṛṣṇa is offering benefit to that plant. Because his energy is in the service of Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, the person who has manufactured this machine, when it is employed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, he's benefited. Indirectly, we are giving him opportunity, although he does not know it. But his energy is being utilized for Kṛṣṇa. We offer prasādam, the same principle. A man does not know about Kṛṣṇa. But he wants to eat. By eating, he'll be gradually Kṛṣṇa conscious. So you have... Our business is to give opportunity to all forgotten souls to be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, today or tomorrow. The boys and girls who have come to this society, they have accumulated in that way, knowingly or unknowingly, some Kṛṣṇa conscious qualification, and therefore they have taken this opportunity. (Pause) We have no dog friend. (Laughs) Mālatī: It's a dog taking a man for a walk. Prabhupāda: We are all devotee friend. Where is your dog? Mālatī: Oh, he's gone. Prabhupāda: Gone? (laughs) Mālatī: Yes. Some very nice people who worship dogs took him. Prabhupāda: The dog saw that "My master has become devotee, so it is useless to keep here." Mālatī: These people who took him, they think he is a person. Prabhupāda: Hm? Mālatī: They treat him like person. Prabhupāda: He's a person. Dog is a person. Why imperson? Mālatī: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Dog is person also. Mālatī: Yes, but they treat him like I would... They... Human person. They treat him like... They worship him. Prabhupāda: Yes, but what is the difference between human person and dog person? No difference. So far eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, they are equal. Human personality is there when he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise he's an animal, as good as dog. Mālatī: So these... If you do not take to Kṛṣṇa conscious, you are a dog. Prabhupāda: Yes, equal to dog. Because he has no other conception except those four principles, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animals. Don't you see the swans? They are enjoying sex life. So what is the difference between man... A man also does like that. So long one is not above these four principles of animal demands, he's as good as animal. To meet animal demands in a polished way is not civilization. One must be above the animal demands. That is civilization. You have read that poetry, "Alexander and the Robber"? Have you read? Mālatī: I don't think so. Say again? Devotee (2): "Alexander and the Rabbit"? Mālatī: No. Prabhupāda: Alexander the Great, you have heard the name? Mālatī: Yes. Prabhupāda: He conquered all over the world almost. He went to India also. So he met one robber. So he arrested, Alexander. He was king. The robber said, "Why you have arrested me?" "Because you are robber." "Oh, you are also great robber." When Alexander was charging him that, "You have done this," oh, he charges, "You have done this. I have entered a private house; *you have entered a private state. So you are a big robber." Then he released him, "Yes, what is the difference between robber and me?" And Alexander, from that day, he stopped his conquering propaganda. "Alexander and the Robber." The robber proved that "You are a big robber only. But because you are big robber, therefore you are called 'Alexander the Great.' But my business is the same as yours*-encroaching upon others' property. Why do you think that I am culprit and you are innocent? You are also culprit. If I had power, I could have punished you. And you have now power, you are trying to punish me." So Alexander the Great was convinced by robber. Devotee (1): (Inaudible) Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): Did he kill himself? Prabhupāda: Who? Devotee (1): Alexander the Great? Prabhupāda: He killed himself? Devotee (1): I don't know. Prabhupāda: Oh, I do not know. Devotee (2): He died from a... He died. (end of walk recording) Gargamuni: This was recorded at Stow Lake in San Francisco on March 23rd, 1968, about 7:30 in the morning. Stow Lake is Swamiji's favorite walking place. (end) Room Conversation -- March 25, 1968, San Francisco Prabhupāda: "...you, under the direction of Lord Śiva. I worshiped Lord Śiva very successfully, and I prayed from him some sources of my happiness. So he has directed me to see you, that you have got that thing. So please give me that." So Sanātana Gosvāmī said "Well, what can I give you? Oh, all right. Can you find out some stone in that garbage?" There were heaps of garbage, and the man searched out and found out a stone. "Sir, do you mean to say this stone?" "Yes." "So what is this?" "This is touchstone. You take it and touch it to iron. It will become gold." "Oh, you are very ... You're so... Now I shall become the richest man in the world. I shall take heaps of iron and touch with this stone, and it becomes gold." So he, with great joy, he went out and he tried that actually, touching the stone, iron is becoming gold. But he thought that, "Lord Śiva directed that Sanātana Gosvāmī has the greatest benediction, I do not think this stone is greatest benediction because it was placed with garbage." So he came back and appealed to Sanātana Gosvāmī that "Lord Śiva told me you have got something most valuable. I don't think this stone is most valuable. Otherwise, why would you keep it in the garbage? You must have something more valuable. So you must give me that because that because Lord Śiva directed me to receive from you." Then Sanātana Gosvāmī told him, "Would you like to take that?" "Yes, sir. I have come for that purpose." So he asked him, "First of all, throw away the stone in the Yamunā River." So he threw away the stone. "Sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Devotees: Oh! (Laughter.) Prabhupāda: "Forget everything. Sit down with me and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Gargamuni: He did it? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he associated with sādhu, Lord Śiva, Sanātana Gosvāmī. So everything was purified, changed. By association, good association, everything is possible. Therefore you have to make this association of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so perfect that anyone who comes in contact with that association, he becomes purified automatically. The association is so important. Anyone who will come in contact with the association, he'll be purified. Just like by association one becomes contaminated, similarly, by counter*-association, one becomes free from contamination. Kṛṣṇa dāsa: Swamiji? I'd like to ask you is this good enough for the flute? This would be for the head of the flute. Prabhupāda: Wood? It can't be.(?) Kṛṣṇa dāsa: No. I'd cast it in gold. Prabhupāda: Oh. This ivory? Kṛṣṇa dāsa: Yes, that's ivory. Prabhupāda: So what do you want to do? Kṛṣṇa dāsa: That would be on the head of the flute. Prabhupāda: Flute? Oh, nice. Kṛṣṇa dāsa: Oh, the lion's all right. Prabhupāda: Very good. Generally, on the head of the flute is given the mouth of the shark. Shark fish. You have seen shark? Like that... But that is also good. Śyāmasundara: Swamiji? I have obtained today a large piece of... Prabhupāda: Stone? Flat. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Marble. For Kṛṣṇa comes home,(?) back of Kṛṣṇa.(?) Prabhupāda: Very nice. So it is not so high. How much it is, height? Śyāmasundara: This one is only for practice. And then I have obtained... Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Śyāmasundara: ...a large one. It is very difficult stone because it's like glass almost. I have to practice. And later a larger one. Prabhupāda: So first of all you... This is called, what is called, test stone. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Praṣṭhipāta, it is called in Bengali. They test gold. By rubbing on the stone, they can understand what is the value of the gold. In India they are simply keeping a stone like this, and you take something golden, and they will at once test by simply rubbing on it. So experienced. By the glazing of the gold they will understand what is the value of this. It is experience. But this stone is used. Śyāmasundara: Marble? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, as soon as you get that church, all the gṛhasthas and brahmacārīs, they will have to bring money. (Laughter) Is that not right? Devotees: Yes, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: There was one clergyman lecturing in a Sheffield coal*-mine that, "If you don't worship Jesus Christ, then you will go to hell." So first of all one man asked him... First of all, the clergyman inquired, "Do you know Jesus Christ?" So they were silent. So one of them inquired, "What is his number?" They thought that "Jesus Christ must be one of us," I mean to say, workers in the mine. So he must have got a number. "So what is his number?" Then the clergyman could understand that "To whom I am speaking." So then he explained, "Oh, Jesus Christ is not one of you. He is son of God. He has come to deliver you. If you don't worship Him, then you will go to hell." Then one of them said, "What is hell?" Then he described, "It is very dark, moist, and so on." So they were silent, because they work in the mine. (laughter) They were silent. "What is this hell? It is all right." Then the clergyman thought how to impress them. Then, after a few minutes, he said, "No. The hell is very dangerous." "How?" "There is no newspaper." "Oh, horrible." (Laughter) Because in your western countries everyone is fond of newspaper. So he stressed, he hit the point, that "There is no newspaper." So we have to hit to the point that there is no tax-man. So what is your question? Devotee: My question was... No, that's a good answer. Prabhupāda: (Laughs) Yes. Your materialistic life is full of anxiety. That is the main symptom of materialistic life. We are always anxious, everyone. President Johnson, he's anxious, "Oh, my presidency is going on. Now I shall no longer be president." He's thinking, very much anxious. And, similarly, you are also thinking, another man is also thinking. Everyone is anxious. Nobody is free from anxiety. And when you go to Kṛṣṇaloka or any Vaikuṇṭha planet, the first thing is that you have no anxiety. That is spiritual life. Always joyful. (Baby cooing). No anxiety. Because she knows, "My mother is there. She will protect me from everything." So no anxiety means when you know that "Kṛṣṇa will protect me," you have no anxiety. To become in the family of Kṛṣṇa. We are already in the family of Kṛṣṇa, but in a different way. Just like if one is in the prisonhouse, he is in the government's protection, but in a different way. *Yamunā: Swamiji, Jānakī*-devī wrote me this very nice letter where she had a dream that there was a gigantic platform above the surface of the earth, and all of our devotees, our Godbrothers and sisters and you, were assembled on this gigantic platform for saṅkīrtana. And we had such a thunderous joy, magnificent kīrtana, that the whole earth... When you said, "Jaya oṁ paraṁ paramahaṁsa," the whole earth bowed down to you like this. And we were all crying, so happy. And you said, "Now my Guru Mahārāja is satisfied." That was her dream. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Yes. Thank you for your dreaming like that. It is very pleasing to me. Yes, I want to see like that. [Break] Devotee: Swamiji, is the dream world the real world? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is reflection of the real world. Reflection is real for the time being. This world is also dream, for the time being. Because this body is not permanent, so it is also a dream. A dream for 100 years or 50 years or 70 years, but that dream is 50 minutes. At night we see the dream for 50 minutes, and this dream is 50 years. That's all. It is a question of time. It is also dream. But dream is reality... So long we see it and enjoy it, that is reality. Just like a man in dream he's crying. It is dream. But the effect is there. Reaction is there. In that sense, dream is reality. Reality, temporary reality, flickering reality. Otherwise, it is reality. (end) Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 27, 1968, San Francisco Prabhupāda: Chant. *Devotee (1) (girl) (sings): Śrīvāsādi*-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. Prabhupāda: Yes. You learn this song. Syamasundara: Distorted? *Devotee (1): Water*-logged, yeah. The skin gets water-logged? Prabhupāda: No, not that. There are some kind of weeds within the water. Devotee (1): Oh. Algae? Prabhupāda: Maybe. Devotee (2) (boy): Seaweed. *Prabhupāda: Seaweeds, yes. So they... All over the body there was some seaweeds. Not exactly... He was very unclean and odd*-looking, and beard and ugly. So he thought that "He's a great yogi. If I refuse, 'No, I'm not going to hand over my daughter to you,' then he may be angry and create some catastrophe." So he said, just to avoid him, that "I have got eight daughters, and it is the desire of my daughters that they should be given over to one husband." No, that "they should be married all at once. So unless I find other husbands for my daughters you have to wait." So immediately, "Yes, I shall myself become eight then." And he expanded himself, eight expansions. So at that time what could he say? He said, "You know, my dear sir, that they are princesses after all. They may not like such ugly husband." Oh, he at once became very youthful and beautiful. Then he married. So in the history you can find that a perfect yogi can expand himself. So similarly, Kardama Muni also expanded into nine. He married Devahūti on condition that unless his wife has got sufficient children, he'll not leave her, and he must leave her. So he expanded himself nine and begotten nine daughters. So we can find from history, the Purāṇas... Purāṇas all means history, Purāṇas. Old history. Purāṇa means old. So even a perfect yogi can expand, what to speak of Kṛṣṇa. He is called Yogeśvara, the supreme yogi. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find this word about Kṛṣṇa, yatra yogeśvaraḥ hariḥ. Yogeśvara. He's perfect in all practices of mystic power. So these five expansions, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda-śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura... Kṛṣṇa appeared in five expansions. Sri Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Lord Caitanya, is Kṛṣṇa Himself. And Prabhu Nityānanda, His immediate expansion. Just like Balarāma. Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. And Advaita is incarnation. And Gadādhara is internal potency. And Śrīvāsa, marginal potency. And there is another potency, external potency. The external potency is not there. External potency means by which this material world is manifested. Devotee (2): What is the difference between an expansion and an incarnation? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): What is the difference between an expansion and an incarnation? Mālatī: That man is... Prabhupāda: Huh? Mālatī: I think I understood you to say that man's intelligence is higher in purpose and it's not manual service(?), taking advantage of it. Prabhupāda: Yes, his higher intelligence is utilized for purification. That is the teaching. Devotee (1): You were talking about Prahlada. Prabhupāda: Yes, Prahlada Maharaja said. Yes. About this body. It is arrangement, according to different body. Now, these swans, they have left this, defending, they're going away. This is defending only. Yes. And as soon as they're on the water, they think, "Oh, we are safe because these rascals cannot come in the water." (laughter) They are thinking about us "rascals." As we are thinking about them that they are lower animals, so they are also thinking, "These are rascals." Just like some father rebukes a son, the son also thinks of the father as rascal, "Unnecessarily he's chastising me." There is a proverb that as the child grows... [break] ...also thinks that "This boy is a fool; *he'll do wrong by..." This is stated. And the child is stated in a different way. Just like sometimes our audience also. When we speak they think, "What nonsense he's speaking. Oh, Kṛṣṇa, what is this Kṛṣṇa? Let us enjoy." They are not purified. So this Prahlada Mahārāja says that according to the body, the specific facilities of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is already arranged. It is already arranged. So one hasn't got to learn. Just like for mating. There is no college or school where in the classroom dis..., that "This is way you have to mate." Everyone knows automatically. Everyone knows how to mate automatically. Nobody is taught how to laugh. Oh, when laughing comes, it, automatically one laughs. Nobody's taught how to cry. Everyone cries when there is some distress. So these things, what is wanted as the necessity of my body, so arrangement is there. But because we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, you think that "We can do something." Therefore we take advantage of our high intelligence to defend ourselves more nicely, to have mating more nicely, or eating more nicely. And a devotee should be satisfied that whatever Kṛṣṇa arranged, that's all right. That Kṛṣṇa prasādam we will take. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has kindly sent, let me be satisfied with this. They do not want more than that. Similarly, "Kṛṣṇa has sent me this woman as my wife, oh, let me be satisfied with that." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that He's pleased to send me such foodstuff, He's pleased to send me such wife, He's pleased to give me strength for so much defense." So the whole question is solved there. But because we have got high intelligence, we are going to surpass the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has given me this wife? Why not search out another nice wife?" That means I am going to surpass the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has sent this prasādam. Oh, this is all vegetables. Why not take some animal food and liquor?" Kṛṣṇa does not send you liquor. You have manufactured. Kṛṣṇa has sent you this fruit, He has sent you the grains, Kṛṣṇa has sent you the milk. You should be satisfied. Why should you manufacture liquor? Why should you manufacture slaughterhouse? We don't eat meat. Are we dying ninety percent of Indian population, they don't eat meat. They're simply vegetarian. Yes. And you can see how they are healthy. They cannot get sufficient food, that is different thing. That is maladministration. Kṛṣṇa has given sufficient food for all the people of the world. Somewhere the foodstuff is being thrown in the sea, and somewhere people are starving. This is want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If a man becomes, if the president becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious president, then he'll think "This foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's. It is not our result. So Kṛṣṇa claims all living entities as His sons. So we are sons of God, and the Indians or other poverty*-stricken countries, they are also sons of God. So if we have got enough, why not send there?" Why you are putting the foodstuff, which no human being can produce, you are throwing it in the water. This is lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness education is greatly needed for human society. Do you follow, Guru dāsa? Guru dāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So you have to convince people like that, that it is not a sentimental institution. We are teaching the thing which is very absolutely needed for the human society. As soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, his personal questions and problems are solved. And if others adopt the same principle, then social*-political questions are also solved. So we have to teach. They will say it is not practical. Why not practical? No, anything is not, not practical. There are so many scientific... You discovered. Just like this tape recorder. This is advantageous to the human society. But it is not practical that everyone will have a nice tape recorder. That is not practical. But when you go to manufacture, say the discoverer, "Oh, that it is not practical; *therefore it should not be manufactured." Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness may not be practical for all, but that does not mean it should not be preached. The customer will take. Just like this tape recorder, one has got money, you have purchased, taking advantage. Similarly, there are many pious persons who can take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like you have taken. You are not ordinary common men. There must have been some pious activities in your past lives. Therefore you have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously. Bhagavad*-gītā says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. [Bg. 7.28] A sinful person cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. One who has completely vanquished all sorts of sinful reactions. Now, the question may be that whether one can finish all sorts of sinful reactions within this material world. No, that is not possible. But it is possible also. What is that? That is also answered in the Bhagavad-gītā that "You give up everything. Surrender unto Me. I shall give you protection from all sinful reactions." So I may be sinful and there are so many reactions awaiting me for giving me trouble, but as soon as Kṛṣṇa takes charge of me, then everything is finished. How it can be finished? Because He is all-powerful, He's the supreme. Just like if the president says... One man is ordered to be hanged. If the president says, "No, he should not be hanged," then immediately all others sanction. Because he's the supreme. Similarly, if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, in spite of a huge stock of sinful reactions awaiting me, simply for the purpose of my surrendering to Kṛṣṇa they're all set aside by Kṛṣṇa. He'll see to it. Simply surrender. And that surrender, as soon as it is done, then the other word says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ... [Bg. 7.28]. One who has finished all kinds of reactions of sinful activities, janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, persons executing pious activities... And the most pious activity is devotional service. "How is that? There are so many other kinds of activities. What is this? This man has made so much charity, he has made so many hospitals, he has ...(unclear)... in such things. And this man is simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you mean to say he is more pious than that man who has made so much charity?" The śāstra says, "Yes. Yes." Why? That is also explained in the Bhāgavata. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That activity is considered to be the highest pious activity. The Bhāgavata does not say what kind of activity. "That activity which leads one to be a devotee of the Lord." That activity is not limited. Any activity that makes one progressing for realization of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is higher, the highest pious activity. That is the description. Just as military art is not a very pious activity, killing art. But because the killing art exhibited by Arjuna was leading him to this platform of satisfying Kṛṣṇa, so that became the highest pious activity. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro... We have to see whether by his activity he's gaining strength in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is highest. It doesn't matter whether it is photography or business or painting or cooking. It doesn't matter. Whether Kṛṣṇa is being satisfied by his activities? Just like you are engaged in different activities. But as soon as you bring your money and engage in the Society's cause, oh, I am very gratified. I do not inquire... Of course, we do not encourage impious activity. That is not the meaning. But phalena paricīyate. Because you offer the result of your activities to Kṛṣṇa, that becomes pious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. So that is the standard of pious activity. Now, this is also pious activity, heeding before teacher. That if by satisfying the poor teachers one becomes pious, how much pious he is who is trying to satisfy the supreme teacher, Kṛṣṇa. He's also a living creature. He's also individual person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). (pause) So have we finished our walking? Not yet? Devotee (2): Excuse me? Prabhupāda: All right, one round more. Devotee (1): ...(unclear)... flower? Prabhupāda: Oh, no flavor? Devotee (1): No, they bloom in the springtime. Prabhupāda: It is just like a beautiful man without any qualification. Devotee (1): Ah! No scent. Prabhupāda: No scent. *Guru dāsa: Is that a qualification, is that part of the age of Kali*-yuga? Flowers with no scent? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Trees will have no fruits. The fruit will have no juice. That is mentioned. Just like in a mango there is a seed. In many fruits there is seed. In Kali*-yuga you'll find simply the skin and seed, no pulp. And cloud without rain. These are mentioned. (laughs) What can you do? If the cloud becomes without rain, if the fruit become without pulp, if the paddy becomes without grain, then what you have to eat? You have to eat the grass, the husk, the skin, and the seed. Or kill another man and eat. Just like in Africa, still, they are doing. Cannibals. Killing the grandfather, that is a great ceremony. Do you know that? Guru dāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They kill the grandfather and have a feast, the cannibals. Yes. That is a great sport, that the grandsons will kill the grandfather and have a feast on his body by toasting.(?) Yes. The same idea is being preached by the communists. They want that all old man of the society, they should be killed. That is one of the theories put forward by the communists. Because they are not producing anything. So just imagine, these things will come gradually. So better to leave this place as soon as possible. Not to come again. That should be our serious attention. The other day the radio man was asking, "Swamiji, how to adjust?" "And there is no adjustment. You have to go out of the scene. There is no adjustment." So he was not very happy. If I would have bluffed him, "Oh, you do this, you do that, you do this humanitarian work, you spread(?) education and give foodstuff." No! There is no adjustment. The only adjustment is quit this place. That is the function of this human form of life. You can get out of this show by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that this is the abode of miseries and that also temporary. Because you can accept any miserable life. That is the spell of māyā. Just like this dog life. If somebody asked me, "Would you like to be a dog? I can make you," shall I agree? Why not? Because I know that's miserable life. But the dog is satisfied. By becoming a purchased slave, very much satisfied. He has no independence, always chained and always servant, eternal servant of a particular man. He can do any harmful thing by the order of the master, he's so faithful. But still, his life is miserable because he's dog. But he is satisfied. He thinks that "Oh, it is a very nice life." This is called covering power of māyā, illusion. Anyone in the most miserable condition of life he'll think, "Oh, I am very happy." Ask him, "How are you?" "Oh, very nice. Very nice." So there is no adjustment. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person should... He knows that here only adjustment is to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only... If he's materially conscious... What is the difference between materially conscious man and Kṛṣṇa conscious man? Materially conscious person is thinking everything as his property or enjoyable thing. And Kṛṣṇa conscious person is seeing the same thing as Kṛṣṇa's. A materially conscious person is satisfied, you get him a nice aromatic flower for his personal enjoyment, and Kṛṣṇa conscious person he at once thinks, "It is very nice flower, it should be offered to Kṛṣṇa." The flower is there, he is there, the consciousness is changed, that's all. He's thinking everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Here the man, distributing food to the animals and fish, he's thinking that "I am doing some pious activities and I shall enjoy the fruit of it." And that's a fact. But if we distribute Kṛṣṇa prasādam, we think that "This man is being supplied Kṛṣṇa prasādam, one day he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious." There is no personal question. And the principle of distributing Kṛṣṇa prasādam is there. Therefore even they don't say any charge, if you distribute the prasādam, if you are able, you are doing some service. Because by eating only, he shall one day become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So whole program is for Kṛṣṇa. And that is Kṛṣṇa karma.(?) You are preparing, you are earning money, you are distributing prasādam. Why? For Kṛṣṇa's sake. Otherwise, why should you work so hard? But we have voluntarily accepted, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Samsiddhir hari*-tosanam. Everyone may act in his own duty. It doesn't matter what kind of duty he has got. But he has to see whether by execution of that duty Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Then he's successful. That is the version in the Srimad-Bhāgavatam: Conversation after Lecture -- May 6, 1968, Boston *Prabhupāda: When the result of the karma is offered to God, then it is karma*-yoga. Satsvarūpa: Swāmījī? Can I make an announcement? Swāmījī has said there are fifty important pilgrimage cities in India, but as far as we're concerned here, it's whatever city His Divine Grace is residing in. So right now it's Boston. And he will stay here so long as it's the best place to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have some taste for it. You can help us to keep Boston this city of pilgrimage. We need engagements for Swāmījī. The universities will be closing . . . well, some of them are almost already closed. But if you have any access to a nice engagement, a church or a club where people attend, please approach us and help us to spread in this way. *Also we have a Love Feast here in the temple every Sunday at noon, and this is very sumptuous bhakti*-yoga Love Feast, with Indian delicacies that you'll certainly enjoy. So approach this way. We'll take collections at this time also. You can help us very solidly by putting in all that you can. Our next kīrtana is scheduled for Wednesday–Monday, Wednesday and Friday—but it won't be, because it will be held at MIT instead, in the student mezzanine lounge in the third floor at eight. Prabhupāda: Wednesday there will be no meeting here? Satsvarūpa: Yes, there'll be no kīrtana . That's the next engagement, May 8th. Also, does anyone have a car? Swāmījī lives nine blocks away. Prabhupāda: You have got your car? Thank you. I'm here since 1965 . . . (indistinct) . . . again I come back . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: If you would like to stay we are going to have some personality . . . (indistinct) . . . you may remain very welcome. (background talking) *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā who can . . . (indistinct) . . . commented . . . (indistinct) . . . just like you are medical man. You are authorized by the state college to practise . . . (indistinct) . . . is that nice? Without going to special college without any training. So who will accept? This is going on. One who is not authorized he is commenting on . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Swami, if this is senseless talk and it disturbs the tranquility of the āśrama then it shouldn't be, be stressed. Prabhupāda: Calculative . . . why it will disturb you? . . . (indistinct) . . . to understand this perhaps argument. There is no discussion. We talk with you on the basis of . . . (indistinct) . . . little then why are we discussing? No. We put everything for accepting with judgement not blindly . . . (indistinct) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation after Lecture -- May 6, 1968, Boston *Prabhupāda: When the result of the karma is offered to God, then it is karma*-yoga. Satsvarūpa: Swāmījī? Can I make an announcement? Swāmījī has said there are fifty important pilgrimage cities in India, but as far as we're concerned here, it's whatever city His Divine Grace is residing in. So right now it's Boston. And he will stay here so long as it's the best place to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have some taste for it. You can help us to keep Boston this city of pilgrimage. We need engagements for Swāmījī. The universities will be closing . . . well, some of them are almost already closed. But if you have any access to a nice engagement, a church or a club where people attend, please approach us and help us to spread in this way. *Also we have a Love Feast here in the temple every Sunday at noon, and this is very sumptuous bhakti*-yoga Love Feast, with Indian delicacies that you'll certainly enjoy. So approach this way. We'll take collections at this time also. You can help us very solidly by putting in all that you can. Our next kīrtana is scheduled for Wednesday–Monday, Wednesday and Friday—but it won't be, because it will be held at MIT instead, in the student mezzanine lounge in the third floor at eight. Prabhupāda: Wednesday there will be no meeting here? Satsvarūpa: Yes, there'll be no kīrtana . That's the next engagement, May 8th. Also, does anyone have a car? Swāmījī lives nine blocks away. Prabhupāda: You have got your car? Thank you. I'm here since 1965 . . . (indistinct) . . . again I come back . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: If you would like to stay we are going to have some personality . . . (indistinct) . . . you may remain very welcome. (background talking) *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā who can . . . (indistinct) . . . commented . . . (indistinct) . . . just like you are medical man. You are authorized by the state college to practise . . . (indistinct) . . . is that nice? Without going to special college without any training. So who will accept? This is going on. One who is not authorized he is commenting on . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Swami, if this is senseless talk and it disturbs the tranquility of the āśrama then it shouldn't be, be stressed. Prabhupāda: Calculative . . . why it will disturb you? . . . (indistinct) . . . to understand this perhaps argument. There is no discussion. We talk with you on the basis of . . . (indistinct) . . . little then why are we discussing? No. We put everything for accepting with judgement not blindly . . . (indistinct) . . . (cut) (end) Talk After Lecture -- May 30, 1968, Boston *Prabhupāda: When the result of the karma is offered to God, then it is karma*-yoga. *Satsvarūpa: Swamiji? Can I make an announcement? Swamiji has said there are fifty important pilgrimage cities in India, but as far as we're concerned here, it's whatever city His Divine Grace is residing in. So right now it's Boston. And he will stay here so long as it's the best place to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have some taste for it. You can help us to keep Boston this city of pilgrimage. We need engagements for Swamiji. The universities will be closing... Well, some of them are almost already closed. But if you have any access to a nice engagement, a church or a club where people attend, please approach us and help us to spread in this way. Also we have a love feast here in the temple every Sunday at noon, and this is very sumptuous bhakti*-yoga love feast with Indian delicacies that you'll certainly enjoy. So approach this way. We'll take collections at this time also. You can help us very solidly by putting in all that you can. Our next kīrtana is scheduled for Wednesday-Monday, Wednesday, and Friday-but it won't be, because it will be held at MIT instead in the student mezzanine lounge in the third floor at eight. Prabhupāda: Wednesday there will be no meeting here? Satsvarūpa: Yes, there'll be no kīrtana. That's the next engagement, May 8th. Also, does anyone have a car? Swamiji lives nine blocks away. Prabhupāda: You have got a car? Thank you. Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal Prabhupāda: Very soon we shall have our own publication. Macmillan Company. (pause) What is your report? Devotee: I had a rough day today. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: I didn't get any new members today. I went all over... I went over to McGill, and not very many teachers, professors there know about the temple, especially the chemistry professors. I don't think chemistry professors go too well with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: No. Every... You have to convince them that chemistry or philosophy or anything, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is all useless. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate param. That verse I was explaining, that Govinda dasi: Earlier you said you wanted it. Prabhupāda: Huh? So he is recording there? Govinda dasi: Oh, I thought you wanted a dictaphone? If not, I can... Devotee: It must be better if you recorded it, something I... Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm? What is that? Devotee: I think a tape recorder is better than a dictaphone because I think a tape recording is better. Prabhupāda: Tape recording is going on? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example, dophara gadha, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use. Dophara gadha, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement. In India... And florists, there is a class, florist. Their business is simply to supply flower. Fisherman there is a class; butcher, there is a class. Just like we have got a temple, now we require potter. Potter, there is a class. In Jagannatha temple the arrangement is that... One does not know since how long... (someone enters) Come on. In Jagannatha temple... Sit down. Jagannatha temple, the prasādam is cooked every day in new earthen pot. No old pot is used. Once used, it is thrown away. Formerly, this was the system in India. Even dishes, once used, it is thrown away. No washing. Even golden dishes, silver dishes, once used, it is thrown away. And now golden dishes, there is no use of golden dishes, neither nobody throws it away, but that was the system. Now the earthen dishes... Just like china clay dishes, this is considered impure because it is repeatedly used. In India, those who are strict Hindus, earthen dishes, once used, it will be thrown away. Clay dishes. So this is china clay dish. It is not to be used again. It is thrown away. Just like you have got paper plates and glass here. You eat it and throw it away. Similarly, India... Now it is being introduced, these paper dishes, gradually, but from very old time, refreshment or foodstuff supplied in clay dishes, and after eating, it is thrown away. So there is a potter class, who flourish. They sell their products. Just like in your country also, so many things are thrown away so that the manufacturer get chance to sell again. So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a class, kṣatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Messopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely. They are fighter class. They like to fight. And fighting is not going every day. So the arrangement was... Just like you have to fight for the state. So there is no monthly salary system. You are awarded by the government a certain tract of land free. You produce grains and utilize the land; no tax for you. But when there will be war, you shall fight. Very nice arrangement. Similarly, in temple, the florist has to supply flowers daily. Mr. Khanvar(?), am I right? You know this Indian system? Mr. Khanvar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So the florist is given a certain tract of land free, and let him produce flower and make business. But the quantity of flower I require for my temple, he must supply daily. Similarly, the bandsman, he should come and play band. Everything was on land distribution. That was the system. And tax was paid to the government. Not by assessment. Uh, assessment... Whatever your land production is there, you give to the government one*-fourth. That's all. If you have produced 1,000 mound grains, you have to give to the government 250 mounds. And if you have produced 100, then you give 25. So there is no question of harassment. Whatever is the production is there... So these profession is accepted from Vedic time, different kinds of men engaged in different kinds of activities. Maybe a florist, maybe a potter, maybe a cobbler, maybe anything, grain producer... So many, society requires so many things. So according to Vedic system, there is a class, and Bhāgavata says that "You are engaged in your occupational duty; *so whether you are getting success by such occupational duty?" The Vedic system does not condemn anyone. "You are a potter. Oh, you are lower." No. You are as good as a priest because you are doing your duty. That's all right. Never condemns. This is development of later age when the so*-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇḍita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as choudhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful. The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Śivānanda: In other words, in the correct position that... You might have a community, and then... Prabhupāda: The community is supposed to be there. The potter is there, the washerman is there, the grocer is there, the milkman is there, everyone is there. So we haven't got to form community. Śivānanda: No. In the correct position then, the temple would be the center of the community. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear Bhagavad*-gītā. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed." We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes. You have got ears. (shouts:) But the rascals are not coming! That is their rascaldom. Because they will go to hell. We are offering the greatest facility, but they are so rascals they are not coming. This is a rascaldom civilization. What is difficulty there? You come, sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take nice prasādam, hear philosophy, see nice pictures, decorated Deity. What is the difficulty there? But their brain is full with rascaldom. They will go to cinema, they will go to hotel, they will go to some other thing, but they will not come to temple, or church, or anywhere where these things are being done. This is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bhāgavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned brāhmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosvāmī was speaking to very learned assembly of brāhmaṇas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because it is understandable not by ordinary class of men. But they are not disallowed. It depends on the speaker to present very nicely for their understanding. It is not, I mean to say, stopped. Nityam bhāgavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18]. This is the process. Śivānanda: Now, um, supposedly, the false ego and... Prabhupāda: What is the false ego and..., now you have to hear. That's all. Śivānanda: No, I mean the attention itself, this is material, very, very subtle, but... Prabhupāda: Yes. If you give attention, it is better. Even if you don't give attention, simply hear, that will also have some effect. Śivānanda: Now, can... We should be able to control our attention then, to direct our attention to where... *Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of sitting if you don't control your attention? Then you are simply wasting time. Why do you come? That is understood. When you come to hear, that means you must hear with attention. But this is a concession, that even if you don't hear with attention, you become purified. But if you do it, it is very nice. You make progress. You get the result very quickly. So success of life is to please Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, by one's occupational duty. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitena dharmena. Svanuṣṭhitena dharmena saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. One should try to satisfy the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead. And Lord Caitanya also recommends that "You remain in your occupation. That doesn't matter. But you submissively try to hear." So we are giving this chance to the people "Please come and hear." But they are not prepared even for that thing. The age is so strong, the Kali-yuga, that it will dictate. Māyā will dictate, "Why you go there? What is there?" But actually, those who have come to us, those who are following, they are so much changed. That is a fact. They are seeing. They are hearing, "It will be." They are seeing, "It is." Still, they are not interested. Just like a class of men, they see that a person who has committed theft is arrested by police, and he is hearing that "If you commit theft, then you will be sinful or you will be caught by the laws of the state." So seeing and hearing, still he is committing theft. Why? By experience, practical experience, he is seeing that "Here is a man, committed theft. He is punished. He is going to be arrested by the police." And he has heard also that if somebody commits theft, he will be punished. So what do you want? Two things are required. Dekha śroṇa(?), seeing and hearing, for gaining knowledge. So he has got knowledge by seeing and hearing, but still... That means the heart is not clear. So this thing will be helpful for clearing the heart. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Simply by legal obligation one cannot be purified. You may enact thousands of rules and regulation and laws. You cannot purify the heart of the people. Here is the process to purify the heart of the people. Therefore they should be taken advantage of. Simply by saying that "If you do this, then you'll be punished," nobody cares for that. Just like a child. The parents daily says, "My dear boy, don't do this. This is mischievous." But he does. Just like a dog, animal. Because the heart is not purified. The knowledge is not there. So this is the process for purifying the heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This is the process. So one should take advantage of this process, how to purify the mind, how to purify the heart. Then you will be a perfect personality, perfect man. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. So we don't say that "You change your profession, you change your position or occupation," no. Please come and hear. Please... If you don't chant, please hear. That hearing process also will cure you. Śravaṇam kīrtanam. So people should come to our temple and hear this chanting, this... We are not taxing. We are not asking any... If you give some contribution, there is temple and management, there is expenditure, heavy expenditure, in this country. If you so kind... It is very kind of you. Even if you do not pay, you don't like, please come. Please come and hear. Please bring your friends if you are really friend. So it is very nice thing. Sthāne sthitaḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir. You remain what you are. We don't say that you change, but you hear. Śruti-gatāṁ. Śruti means this ear. God has given you this nice thing. You just inject this transcendental vibration through this ear. And when you will, you purify yourself, then you'll know how to make your life successful by your occupation. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.46]. Saṁsiddhi. Saṁsiddhi means perfection. So even fifty years... Not fifty. About sixty years before, in our childhood, or more than, sixty-five years before, when we were five, six years old, this system of hearing in the evening, in every village there was current. And my maternal uncle's house was in the suburb of Calcutta. So in our childhood, when we used to go to our maternal uncle's house, all the ladies and members being discussed. They will sit down. All the members of the neighboring people, they will come, very big crowd, and they will hear, and whatever they can pay, they will pay. And with that impression, at nine o'clock or ten o'clock, they will go to bed. Very nice arrangement. Usually the meeting was taking place after night, dinner, you see? Say, about at nine o'clock. And from nine to ten, eleven, the discussion would go on, and then the members dispersed and go to their respective home. We have seen. And all the ladies, whole road, they were discussing, "The priest told me..." They discussed very seriously to understand. So they don't require any education. Simply by hearing they become advanced. This is recommended. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ... Śṛṇvatāṁ. Just try to hear, hear, hear. Very nice process. So we are inviting people. We have got so much big space. Unfortunately, nobody is coming to hear. Mr. Khanvar? Why they do not come? Mr. Khanvar: I don't know. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, can you guess any reason? Mr. Khanvar: Many people don't know about temple. Many people are not aware of the temple. *Prabhupāda: Well, these are..., so many people came on that day. At least, they know. They have no interest. That is the thing. That this life is meant for perfection in self*-realization or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their dull brain does not allow to understand this fact. Therefore I was explaining last night, su-medhasaḥ good brain substance. So people are becoming dull, and talking all nonsense. They are interested with so many nonsense things. Just like yesterday that gentleman came. You were present? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Oh, he was talking that on zero some great swami spoke four hours. And he was very proud that on zero one can speak throughout his whole life. Now I did not... (laughs) But if you can speak on some subject matter for four hours, how it is zero? Just see the contradiction. Gaurasundara, you were present when he was speaking? You heard? If I can speak something on a subject matter, is that subject matter zero? Zero means śūnya. Śūnya means nothing. So how you can speak on nothing? If you can speak on nothing, then nothing is no more nothing. It is something. Just see. But you are so proud. "Oh, he spoke on zero for four hours." I did not contradict because he is newcomer, but I talked on other subject. But this is the position. Suppose you can talk on zero for four hours. Then either you waste your time... Because after all it is zero. The result is zero. Just like you add one million zeros. So what is the value? Zero. So who is a fool that knowing that one million zeros makes zero, why shall I waste my time making so many zeros? So either he is a fool or if zero has so much substance to speak, then how it is zero? If zero has so much value that one can speak on it for hours and hours together, then how it is zero? So people do not understand things very properly. They're so dull. Then he was eulogising the man who spoke on zero for four hours. Yes. That is the system, if you hear a man talking nonsense and people will give cla... Oh! And he's asking what you have understood, "Oh! it is very difficult to explain." Then why you are wasting time? If you cannot express, if you do not understand. Simply people wants jugglery of words, they don't want substance. They don't want substance. That is the difficulty in the mod..., in the present age. Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.46]. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. So you should learn this nice simple fact, that whether by your work Kṛṣṇa or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is being satisfied. Just like a student, how he is prosecuting his studies will be tested at the examination how he can satisfy the examiner. Similarly, whatever we may do, we have to enquire or to understand whether by that work the Supreme Personality of Godhead is satisfied. Unfortunately, they do not believe in God, or if they had some ideas of God... Now they say God is dead. So they do not think that it is necessary to please God. That is the difficulty. Śivānanda: In other words if we have a decision to make, we should make the decision only in terms of how it's going to affect my service to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm? Śivānanda: In other words, you don't necessarily make snap decisions. I mean they're probably very... They can consider it from all different points of view. Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. Śivānanda: No. But I mean you have to consider all the different means and figure out how you're going to serve Kṛṣṇa the best way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa can be served by his own occupation, as I described just now. Or whatever you may be. You may be a potter, you may be a florist, you may be... Whatever you may be, but you can satisfy Kṛṣṇa by his work, by your work. You do not require to qualify yourself with some specific qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, you have to dovetail it under the direction of expert spiritual master, how you can serve. That's all. Pradyumna: What does that expert mean in the list of qualifications for a devotee? In the list of qualifications of a devotee there is one qualification, expert. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: What does that mean in relation to the occupation? *Prabhupāda: Expert means whatever he is doing, he must do it very nicely That's all. Suppose you are sweeping this room. You can do it very nicely, to your best knowledge. That is expert. The people will say, "Oh, you have very nicely done." Any work you do, do it very nicely. That is expert. Don't do it haphazardly. To your best talent, to your best capacity, try to finish it very nicely, whatever it may be. You are entrusted with some work. Do it nicely. That is expert. If you think that you are unable to do that work, then whatever work you can do, you take. But do it nicely. That is expert. Don't imitate. "Oh, I have no capacity to work in that way, but I want to imitate. Oh, he is doing that. I shall do that." Don't do that. That is not expert. You take up what you can do very nicely and do it nicely. We have so many works. Kṛṣṇa is not that He is static. He is dynamic force. Just like Arjuna, he was not a Vedantist, he was not a brāhmaṇa, he was not a sannyāsī. He was householder. He was military man. But he knew his business, how to do it nicely. So you do your business nicely. That is expert. And when it is dovetailed in Kṛṣṇa, there is no gradation that this business is better and that business is lower because everything is for Kṛṣṇa. So that business becomes Kṛṣṇa. Do it nicely and Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And that is your success. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa*-mulo hanyate 'khila pārthiva vānaraḥ.(?) Expert. There is a very nice story in Sanskrit. A monkey. A monkey... You might have some experience, that sawmen, who cut wood? Sawmen. So a sawman was cutting wood by the saw. So at the end of business it was half cut so he pulled down a, I mean to say, a plug so that next day he will come and he'll again begin sawing. So went away. So one monkey came. So monkey sat down there and began to pull on the plug because monkey's business is simply mischievous. So he did not know that his plough (?) and some portion of his thigh was within the hole and when he took out this plug it was, (claps) I mean to say, clipped, and he could not get out and died. So the instruction is that... 'Khila pārthiva vānaraḥ, vyāpare suvyaparam. Avyāpara means a occupation, an occupation which is not fit for you. That is avyāpara. Avyāpara-suvyaparam. And one occupation which is not exactly fitting you, you do not know how to do it, so avyāpare suvyaparam yo kartu... If one wants to act in a business in which he is unable to do, then he is killed just like this fool monkey. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate. That foolish person is killed just like this monkey. The monkey's business was not to imitate the sawman, but he wanted to imitate. The result was that he was killed. So that is not expertness. Expertness is you just try to do which is easily performed by you. You don't accept anything heavy task because Kṛṣṇa does not want that you have to do this heavy task. Whatever you know, you just apply it. You dovetail it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you have to become like this, like that, like that, then you can serve Him. Does not say. Just like this cow. Just see. What does it know? He's an animal. You see? But the calf knows to brush his head and tongue like this, in love. It is doing and Kṛṣṇa accepting, "Yes." That is expert. First of all find out what is easily done by you. Don't take anything which is not easily done by you. You find out what is your occupation, what you can very nicely and easily perform, and do it for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that clear? Expert? This is expert. Expert does not mean that I do not know how to drive motor car, and I will have to imitate somebody, "Oh, I shall become driver." Why? If you do not know driving, why should you attempt driving? Whatever you know, you just try it, that business, and try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. If you know driving, that's all right. But don't take... My Guru Mahārāja explained that you haven't got to learn anything extra for Kṛṣṇa's service. Whatever you know, you just apply it... Then you become successful. Because our time is very short. We do not know when I am going to die. As soon as I am out of this body, I am completely under the grip of nature, and I do not know what kind of body I am getting next. Of course, Kṛṣṇa assures that His devotee will never be vanquished. He will get good body. But I do not know what kind of body I am going to... Therefore before finishing this body I will have to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. That is my success. Śabdhvā sudurlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. After many, many of evolutionary process, I have got this nice human form of body in America or India, in civilized nation, or rich family, I have no economic problem. That's all right. So it is to be understood they are simply wasting. Oh, how miserable it is. They get the opportunity, and they are simply wasting for sense gratification just like cats and dogs. Whole day working, whole day laboring. Why? Sense gratification. That is also in the hog society. Eating stool, living in nasty place, and they have got very good facility for sex. Is that the end of life? So Bhāgavata says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājaṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. You are working so hard and the end should not be simply sense gratification. Sense gratification you can get in hog society, dog society, without any, I mean to say, extra qualification. That is... Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Viṣaya means this sense gratificatory business, you will have in any life. In bird's life, in dog's life, in cat's life. So do you think that human life is also meant for that purpose? Then what is the meaning of civilization? Is that civilization? If the end of life is the same, just like cats and dogs, is it civilization? They do not know what is civilization. They have forgotten. They think that eating very nicely in a palatable dish, that is civilization. But eating is eating. And if you eat... If you are hungry, anything satisfies you. That is eating. Finish. You can eat. Sleeping. When you are fast asleep, you do not know whether you are on the nice building in a nice apartment. You are dreaming that you are thrown into the ocean. So sleeping. So simply for nice arrangement for sleeping, is that civilization? [break] Then life is successful. At least, if one understands that "This is my business. My business is not to work hard and end it by sense gratification. This is not my business." That is saṁsiddhi. That is success. If, at least, one understands this aim of life, even little understands, he gets next human body. That is guaranteed. At least, he is not going to get any cats' and dogs' body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. When Arjuna inquired that if a man cannot execute this yoga system, Bhakti-yoga system, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if it is half finished or one-fourth finished, or 10% finished, not complete finished, then what is the result? He is good for nothing? No. Kṛṣṇa says, "No." Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Even a little understood, it can save him from the greatest danger. And śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. If one is not successful in this life, then he is given another chance next life. Where? Śucīnāṁ. In nice, transcendentalist, brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava devotee or pious man, in his family. Or less than, if he is less qualified, then he is given a chance to get his birth in a rich family. Both the families. In rich family he has no economic problem. And in a pious family he gets direct opportunity to, I mean to say, advance his past Kṛṣṇa consciousness again. So in these two families he gets another chance. But unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they immediatel Pradyumna: What is that type of pleasure that is material pleasure, that a person feels engaged in material pursuit. He feel some kind of pleasure. It's not very much pleasure, but it's some pleasure. What is that pleasure made of? Because if he is enjoying sense gratification... *Prabhupāda: That is pleasure. That is material pleasure. Material pleasure means sex pleasure. That's all. The end of material pleasure, the topmost material pleasure, is sex pleasure. So all these materialists, they are trying to get pleasure from the sex life. In this way, that way, that way, that way, that way. That's all. Because they have no other information. Material pleasure means sex pleasure. Sex pleasure, tongue pleasure. They have manufactured so many things. That gentleman was sitting and asking "Can I smoke?" The tongue is agitating for... "Please, please give me one cigarette. One cigarette." He became disturbed. And we said, "No. You cannot smoke." This is material pleasure. You train up your senses in such a way that it becomes addicted. It cannot get out of the entanglement. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save you. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. They are all explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The material pleasure means sexual intercourse. That's all. That is the sum and substance of pleasure. That's all. You'll find everywhere two, one male and female, one male and female. Either legitimate or illegitimate. Either human being or animal or birds or beast, that male and female, male and female, male and female. This is material pleasure. And unless one is strongly equipped in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not possible to give up. That is the test. It is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is Madana-mohana. He can captivate even the Cupid. This is Cupid's business, attraction of male and female. And when that Kṛṣṇa attracts you, you forget this Cupid attraction. Therefore He is known as Madana-mohana. Śivānanda(?): When do we become attracted? When do we begin to become attracted? Prabhupāda: Forget that. You are attracted. That you take account of. When you become diseased, that is useless. You are diseased. Take medicine. There is no necessity of asking when you became diseased. You are diseased. Take medicine. That's all. What is the use of tracing the history? Everything has his history, that's all right. But my immediate necessity is that "I am diseased. I want to be cured. Give me some medicine." But there is history. The history is this. Just like disease. You have fallen victim of disease. That means you have given chance to the infection. That's all. That is the sum and substance of disease. You are infected with some disease. That means you have given chance for that infection. There was a story in a medical journal. "Typhoid Mary." Typhoid Mary... One girl, whenever she was present everyone was being infected with typhoid. Then she was examined, that she is full of typhoid germs. But she was immune. But she infected wherever she went. The medical journal reported. So we should be careful not being infected. And that how you can become free from infection? These four rules. "Don't have this, don't have this, don't have this, don't have this." Then you are free from infection. So you should be careful from being infected. There is no use tracing out the history when you become infected. You should not be infected. That should be your business. And as you are now infected, you try to avoid the causes of infection and take the medicine; you become cured. Some prasādam? So Annapurna you have got some news? Annapurna: I got a letter from my father. Prabhupāda: So is that all right? Annapurna: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is our next program? (chuckles) That letter is encouraging? Annapurna: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. (pause) So on behalf of Kṛṣṇa we have to canvass with folded hands and with all humility, "Please come to our temple and hear." He sādhavā sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. All right. (pause) Devotee: This rule, "No gambling," does this also include speculation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Speculation is gambling. Pradyumna: Swamiji? I was reading a book by Swami Vivekananda. Some letters in the back I was looking at... Prabhupāda: Vivekananda's books we have nothing to do. Pradyumna: I was just... Prabhupāda: Forget him. It is all nonsense. Pradyumna: I was looking at his philosophy. I was just looking at his technique for his... He was in America first and then he wished also to go to Europe. Anyway, he had one man... He just had a rich benefactor and he went on a six weeks tour, France, England, Germany, Switzerland, all around and then back. That's how he did most of his touring. He had one or two influential people, and then he did everything just like that. And all lectures were arranged in societies. Prabhupāda: So you can arrange like that. Can you? Pradyumna: I was thinking if there would be in the Royal Asiatic Society in London. I think Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda was a member of that also? Is that the same one? Prabhupāda: Where is Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda now? Pradyumna: No, but there would be some people there, to open correspondence with them, and they might be interested in sponsoring you. Prabhupāda: It is not... It is more difficult.(?) (Prabhupāda is taking prasādam) (pause) Is there anything about Kṛṣṇa in Vivekananda's speech? Pradyumna: I wasn't reading his speeches. I wanted to see how he worked things. I know he's a rascal. Prabhupāda: So you can give me a little milk and finish business. (pause) (devotees offer obeisances) All glories to the assembled devotees. Devotees: All glories to Guru and Gaurāṅga! Prabhupāda: Yes. All glories to you because you are interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Certainly it is glorious. Greatest science. Please try to understand it very nicely. You will be all happy. That is my request. Devotee: Is this picture of He who is considered(?) Kṛṣṇa in the pine tree? Prabhupāda: What is this? Some imagination. Some imagination. All cheating. (end) Conversation with Religious Group -- July 27, 1968, Montreal Prabhupāda: I am imperfect. That's all right. But I know what is perfection. Guest (1): I cannot see that. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Don't laugh. Suppose you are here. You have to go to London. If you have purchased the ticket for London and if you are sure that you have got an aeroplane, so even you have not gone to reach London, but you are sure that you are going to London. Guest (1): Yes. I can be sure. I understand that, that you are sure. I have no doubt about that. But how can your security... *Prabhupāda: No, no, if I have understood that my destination is London*-I am going to London-then if I feel secure, that is my happiness. Guest (1): So you are completely happy. Prabhupāda: Yes, because I know, "If I go to London, I will be happy." So I am going there, therefore I am happy. Guest (1): But you're not in London yet. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I have already told you. That very purchase of ticket and the understanding that you are surely going to London, that is happiness. Guest (1): But then there is no searching. Prabhupāda: So what is that? If my destination is London, why there is searching? There is no use of searching. Guest (1): Well, then why a conference with men of other religions? Prabhupāda: No, that conference is to consult together that London is the destination. Guest (1): But then you know of a destination. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): But the idea that you have behind your mind, is to tell other people where the destination is, not to search for it with them. Prabhupāda: No, I don't say search. I have already searched out. Guest (1): Yes. So then I feel myself that this is not a conference. Prabhupāda: Why not conference? If I have got some good news to tell you, is it not conference? Guest (2): Swamiji, I think the objective will be... As far as you are concerned, it will be London. As far as I am concerned, it may be Paris or Hawaii. Prabhupāda: No, then that is not... No, that is not. Hawaii... Then we have to consider where real happiness, whether it is in Hawaii or in Paris or in... Guest (2): True. But then you are not going to a country that it is not London. And if I say I am not going to... *Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is going on. There are innumerable planets, and in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. Now, if you think that London is not good for you, Paris is good for you, it is good for you. Guest (3): Well, then the whole conference becomes useless. Prabhupāda: No. If you don't agree that which is the..., or do not understand what is the highest goal, then conference is useless. If you keep yourself to the understanding where you are, then there is no need of conference. Guest (1): That is the same thing... *Prabhupāda: No, not exactly the same thing. That is the conference*-I want to convince you that London is the real place of happiness. Guest (1): But maybe I think that I know... Prabhupāda: You may think, but you'll have to be convinced that your thinking is wrong. Guest (1): Or maybe I can convince you that your thinking is wrong. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Therefore conference required. (laughter) Therefore conference required. Guest (2): Swamiji, the time is running out, however, and I would like to thank you very much for the, your coming in our center here. Prabhupāda: Now you are convinced that conference is required. You have to convince me; I'll have to convince you. Guest (2): I think that it is through those confrontations and through those listenings to each other... [break] (French) man Guest (4): If you go to London, I want to go to India, and then we shall be separated. So we must all go both to London and India. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that first of all we have to decide where to go. If anyone is satisfied that "I am satisfied with going to London or going to Paris..." Guest (4): But that is the question. Where should we go? If you believe you must go to London, I believe very strongly I must go to India, and I am convinced that to me India is London... Prabhupāda: No. As you are convinced that going to India is good for you, similarly, you must change your conviction also, that going to London is also nice. Guest (4): Yes. But so may you also change your conviction. Prabhupāda: I may... Yes, if you can convince me. Therefore conference... Guest (4): If you believe that you cannot be convinced... Prabhupāda: No. I believe you can convince me. If we are reasonable... Guest (4): But then you are searching. Prabhupāda: What? No. My searching is complete. I... Guest (4): But then I cannot convince you of anything. Prabhupāda: No. Why not? You have got reason; I have got reason. You have to show me that these are favorable condition in Paris. Guest (4): But how can I convince you? Because you are saying that you cannot... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Convince means you have to convince me with your reasoning power or presentation. That is not very difficult thing. Two lawyers are fighting in the court. They are convincing. Now the judgement is there. So that fighting means for convincing, not only in law court, in everywhere. In assembly, in Parliament, in Senate house. That is a regular thing. Now the majority is accepting. Now this shall be... What is that? Devotee: (inaudible) Prabhupāda: No, no. Show it now. (end) Conversation with Devotees -- August 15, 1968, Montreal Prabhupāda: Your child is very nice. It does not cry. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. So your starting is very nice. Śyāmasundara: What? Prabhupāda: Your starting London yātrā is very nice, beginning. Now you practice, all. Haṁsadūta: Together? Prabhupāda: Yes, every morning, and just make systematic so that it becomes very nice. And at least twelve heads. So you are husband wife. How many pairs? Six? Or five? Come. And you are also going? Eh? London? I ask you, Annapūrṇa. Annapūrṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? You want to go with them or you want to go separately? Child: I would like to go with Annapūrṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's all right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees chant japa) All right. Oh, it is too little. The plate is not yet full. Give me one spoon. Himāvatī? Himāvatī: Yes? Prabhupāda: You can give two rabris (milk sweet). Haṁsadūta: Can I put some on here? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Halavā is very nice. Who has prepared? Oh. (end) Conversation -- August 18, 1968, Montreal (Conversation with first devotees going to London on evening of their departure) Prabhupāda: You can plaster together, up and down, and each and every one of them . . . each and every one of them is separately sevenfolded covered. The watery portion is beyond the sevenfold covering. And each covering is ten times more expansive than the previous covering. The Personality of Godhead creates all such universes by His breathing period, lies above the cluster of the universes. (break) Janārdana: So there's four . . . there's water, air, fire, ether and pradhāna . This is given. (break) This should be corrected. Prabhupāda: Third Canto, it is five coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in the Second Canto seven coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seven kinds of subtle, and these five covering is gross. So subtle should be taken. So subtle should be taken also. Janārdana: Yes. Is pradhāna subtle matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: So the subtle is moving the gross like the miller's wheel. The potter's wheel moves the pot. So the pradhāna . . . so the mind is moving the body. So the pradhāna . . . they simply put pradhāna . . . Prabhupāda: If it is mentioned five, then it is five gross, and seven means subtle. So five or seven . . . of course, seven is more explicit than the five. Janārdana: I never see anywhere where it is mentioned that there's an earth covering. It's always water as the first. Water is the first layer that's given. So there are four of the elements. Then . . . Prabhupāda: Then above water there is air. *Janārdana: Air, fire, ether. Water, fire, air, ether, and then this pradhāna . So pradhāna is split up into the three: ahaṇkāra, mahat*-tattva and . . . what's . . .? Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is material ingredient, material cause. Janārdana: Material cause. Prabhupāda: And prakṛti . . . Janārdana: Is the efficient cause. Prabhupāda: Efficient cause. *Janārdana: That is in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: I have the page. Prabhupāda: This is Third Canto? Janārdana: Third Canto. I have fragments of it. Satsvarūpa Prabhu gave me some fragments that he had. So I have a couple of books like this. (break) Prabhupāda: I shall put here. (break) . . . and you . . . the New York boys' opinion is to start a press in New York will be nice, because there is so many other facilities for press work. If the press goes wrong, there are immediate, I mean to say, what is called, mechanics to repair it. In other places it is not possible. (break) All right. We shall think over it. Janārdana: About the press in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Well, Montreal center has a room for a press. However, there is the inconvenience that the building may be torn down in two years. Prabhupāda: What about that other building, that storefront down? Janārdana: A storefront downstairs? I don't know all the details about that. I haven't been looking into . . . Prabhupāda: You told me that there is a church for sale on the other side of the park? Janārdana: Yes, there is. Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that church? Janārdana: It's on Esplanade Street. Prabhupāda: On the corner? Janārdana: It's on a corner. It's on the corner of Esplanade and the other street. I don't remember. I can go on my bicycle and take a look there. Prabhupāda: That's a very big building? *Janārdana: It is a three*-story house. It is about the size of one of these houses here, not the apartment houses but . . . Prabhupāda: That, some cross? Janārdana: Yes, there's a cross there. Prabhupāda: Pasture? It is written Pasture? Janārdana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That's small building. Janārdana: That is small? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen it. Janārdana: You've seen it. You take walks so far over there? (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's not a very big building. Janārdana: Not good enough for you. (laughter) Well, there's a synagogue . . . Prabhupāda: So what did you do about this building? You have not written anything? Janārdana: Well, I haven't had a minute all week. Prabhupāda: You must today finish it. We must borrow type and send it. Janārdana: Okay, I'll finish it today. All this week I was so engaged around the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our engagement should be on that point, that these people will not easily understand, so we are not going to waste time for nothing. If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. Yes. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. You see? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that photar kathara sei usane na : "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him." Especially in this country. If you become free speaker, then he's not taken into . . . very serious. So we must charge. In Boston, all the lectures Satsvarūpa arranged, they paid hundred dollars, at least fifty dollars. Janārdana: If they pay, then they will have to get something out of it. They will force themselves to get something out of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone paid. The Massachusetts Technical College and the Eastern University. Eastern University there is . . .? Janārdana: I think so. Prabhupāda: Then Harvard University and Boston University, and one church. They have paid, yes. And one church, Arlington Church, in that church . . . I think you were present there? Arlington Church? Govinda dasi: Unitarian? Prabhupāda: No. You have not been in Boston. Some girls from temple, they were present. Govinda dasi: Annapūrṇa? She was there? Prabhupāda: Annapūrṇa is always present wherever I go. (laughing) She is very nice, that she wants to follow me. This morning I was asking her that, "After your marriage, where you want to stay?" and she said: "Wherever you stay, I stay." And "I am traveling. Then you are married. You must have a place to settle." Anyway, in that church they charged us for meeting, but we collected very nicely. We collected more than hundred dollars. Yes. A very nice meeting. Janārdana: How many people were there? Prabhupāda: More than hundred. Because we collected hundred dollars, and almost, they have paid one dollar. Janārdana: The summer season is very slow in Montreal. The churches cut down their sermon programs. The synagogues don't having sermons in the summer very often. So that's why we haven't had so many engagements. But in the month of September things begin to pick up faster. The coldest time of the year is the busiest time of the year here, actually. The real busy season is January and February. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was speaking to Gaurasundara that Janārdana speaks, "The winter season is the busiest season," and you said: "It is dull season"? (chuckles) Janārdana: January and February are the busiest, and they are the coldest months, too. Prabhupāda: Very busy? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: How you are feeling, Śāradīyā? Nice? Śāradīyā: I'm fine. Prabhupāda: You are going to Europe? No? You have got to attend your school? That's nice. (to devotees leaving for London) So your program is starting tomorrow morning? Yamunā: Five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Five o'clock? Yamunā: That's when we have to get out. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So you are going by taxi? Gurudāsa: To the airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Yes, I think so. Devotee (2): You'd have to. Yamunā: Three taxis. Prabhupāda: Why three taxis? Mālatī: Two taxis. There are so many of us and so much baggage. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So for me, I shall be ready to start as soon as we hear from you. Yes. And tomorrow I shall expect mail. I don't think I am going to Vancouver, because from Upendra's letter it is not very encouraging, and I don't think Mr. Renovich will, on his personal account, call me and pay me. I don't think so. So what is your next program here? Janārdana: Then the next program here . . . well, the busy season will begin. So I'll go to McGill and Sir George Williams universities and some churches also, and I'll try to get speaking engagements. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . building? Janārdana: Possibly. Maybe I'll find a place on the other side of the mountain for you, because the man here insisted if we take this for September, we must take it for the whole year. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . means October, November, December? Janārdana: Until next year in September. Twelve months. Prabhupāda: Ho, ho! (laughter) That is not possible. Janārdana: That's what he's asking now. (break) Prabhupāda: Because in the winter season they don't get tenants? Janārdana: Well, a few will get easily tenants, but he wants to get a tenant for the whole winter. And September is a month when there is the best chance for getting a tenant, because that's when all the student population comes back into town, and this is a student district. And so in the month of September he would like to either get a tenant for the whole year or leave the place open. But maybe I can persuade him. Because it is not very easy to find a suitable apartment for only one month in Montreal. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . pare dhana parke diye nija labha cora : "I borrowed something from you, and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So . . . "I borrow from you and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Pare dhana parke diya nija labha cora . So that means this is warning: One should not do like that. One should not take responsibility for a person where there is no connection. *(break) Everywhere the principle of self*-interest is there. That is *(break) there. But real self*-interest is Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa we can do anything, because He is supreme Self. Bījo 'ham sarva-bhūtānāṁ ( BG 7.10). He is the Self of selves. (break) Where is Haṁsadūta? What he's doing there? Devotee (1): I think he's cooking. Prabhupāda: Cooking? (laughs) He's very expert cooking. (laughs) Janārdana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And Himavati also, assisting her husband? Devotee (1): I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta likes to cook. Yamunā: Oh, he loves it. Prabhupāda: So he wants to open a restaurant. Janārdana: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our, I mean to say, ISKCON restaurant. So you wanted to open that restaurant in our temple. Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? He is a very nice cooker. Janārdana: If he stays here to cook, that's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll stay. And I have told him already. And I have asked all the students in America chased by this draft board may come here. Yamunā: You're going to have to get a bigger building. Devotee (2): There won't be anybody left in America. Prabhupāda: No. In our connection, our students, let him come here. So these two boys, Jayapatāka and Vaikuṇṭha, in the same process receive. And therefore I was thinking that let us start press and restaurant and engage all these boys. Janārdana: Right, yeah. Prabhupāda: So you can . . . (break) . . . center. Why don't you try for that building? Janārdana: The building, the Strathcona, the government building. Prabhupāda: That is very nice, but other building in front of our temple . . . just not in exactly front. That big signboard. Janārdana: Oh, 16,000 . . . 15,000 square feet, a dollar sixty a foot? Prabhupāda: Dollar sixty? *Janārdana: Yes. We are paying forty*-nine cents a foot, and they are asking there a dollar sixty a foot. They are asking three times more rent than we are paying. It's very expensive. Prabhupāda: How many . . . there? Sixteen thousand? Janārdana: Fifteen thousand square feet. It is a fortified place, because they keep furs. They keep animal furs there, and animal furs are very expensive, and thieves very often break in. So I think that one of the reasons why it's so expensive is because it's fortified. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is that? Janārdana: It is a place . . . (break) . . . of animal . . . Prabhupāda: Fur, fur. Yes. Janārdana: And they are very expensive furs. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . very expensive. Janārdana: Very expensive. They want a dollar sixty a square foot per year, which is very expensive. We are paying 49 cents a square foot per year. Prabhupāda: Oh. I thought that because it is a downs floor, the restaurant can be started there. Janārdana: Oh, you mean there's another place? You mean that storefront downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Oh, that place . . . it's a green color, and the windows are covered with soap? The windows are painted white? Prabhupāda: No. It's a big building, big store. And big signboard. (break) . . . shall approach. (laughing) Somebody said, told, that is for sale? That was for sale? Janārdana: There is a store for sale. No. I think what they mean, the business is for sale. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . prescription, doctors never says in plain terms. Just like at the end of the prescription, "add water." This is real purpose. They will write "aqua pure ata". Nobody will understand. They will understand. This is also some of the medicine. Aqua means water. Similarly, you can say: " prasādam distribution," and they will have to consult dictionary, what it is. And you can say: "Oh, it is not restaurant; it is prasādam ." So at least . . . Janārdana: No. "Nobody is allowed to smoke in here, and they have to take off their shoes, so how can you say it's a restaurant?" Prabhupāda: Yes. These are technical. (break) . . . description, what is called restaurant that, "Wherever foodstuff is prepared and sold, that is called restaurant," then it will come to that category. Whenever they make some law, they give definition of each word, what do you mean by "restaurant." So today is another ceremony in the temple? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Huh? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. What can we use instead? Prabhupāda: Barley? Why? It is . . .? Janārdana: The stores are all closed today, and the boys searched everywhere. They didn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Some grains. Any other grain. Janārdana: There is whole wheat. Prabhupāda: That will do. Janārdana: Whole wheat grains, and there's rice. Prabhupāda: Rice . . . better . . . wheat is better. Janārdana: And what else is there? There's some . . . Prabhupāda: Sesame? Janārdana: Sesame? I don't know. Is there some sesame? Mālatī: Yes, I have some, and Annapūrṇa has some. Janārdana: And there's some buckwheat. Raw buckwheat. Prabhupāda: Buckwheat? What is that? Janārdana: Raw buckwheat. It's a grain. (break) Śāradīyā: What is the significance of using the barley and the sesame? Prabhupāda: Some eatables, that's all. Grains are eatables. Therefore I am substituting. They are eatable. There must be something eatable. Lady devotee (1): Does eatable . . . does Kṛṣṇa eat out of the fire? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady devotee (1): He does? He eats all that? Prabhupāda: Everyone eats. Kṛṣṇa also . . . Kṛṣṇa eats through fire. Therefore yajṣa is offered. Kṛṣṇa eats by so many ways, but people want to see that, "I give foodstuff; it must be finished." (chuckles) So for the rudimental seers and the less intelligent class, this is . . . Janārdana: Virāṭa rūpa conception. Prabhupāda: Virāṭa rūpa , yes. That is also nice, right, that through fire He eats, yes, or through the mouth of the brāhmaṇas and devotees. Two things are there. Therefore, according to the Vedic religion, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees, are invited to take food in some ceremonies. In śraddhā ceremony they are especially invited with great honor. In pilgrimage somebody goes to Vṛndāvana, Prayāg, Mathurā. They invite the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, so that through them Kṛṣṇa is eating. They have come to satisfy Kṛṣṇa in a place of pilgrimage. So these are the systems. *So for the purpose of eating, so many brāhmaṇas have sprung up. Because brāhmaṇas are invited, so, so many so*-called brāhmaṇas are there. They'll be present when eating, and when there is chanting of Vedas they are not present there. (break) Baby has also tilaka . (chuckles) She is very happy. You see? I never seen such small child not crying. That means she is always happy. She's not crying means . . . because baby cries when there is discomfort. And with her face shows that she is very happy. (laughs) (break) Yamunā: . . . swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Just see. Thank you. (break) . . . see? Girl devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. All very healthy, I see, because very energetic. (break) Śāradīyā: Simply by your divine grace, on Kṛṣṇa's appearance day in San Francisco my mother came to the temple, and she wore a sārī and a tilaka . Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) You are converting your mother to this cult. Yamunā: A very nice mother she has. Prabhupāda: Unless mother is good, how the children are good? Yamunā: Tora. Tora is one of the biggest, and he helped more than anybody. He would come home, and she would read to them from the *Bhāgavatam* . But he would tell her, "Oh, if you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, you must serve māyā ." And he would say: "That's māyā ." *He would tell mother that at seven years old, and he would explain to her. Swāmījī, by the end of our classes, he was actually understanding the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , being able to listen to it and ask questions about it. Prabhupāda: He gave you questions? Mālatī: Even at the temple when there would be lectures, and then the lecturer says: "Are there any questions?" Tora would raise his hand, and he'd ask very intelligent questions. Prabhupāda: Then why not keep him with me, your mother and he? (devotees cheer) *Yamunā: Oh, ho*-ho! Haribol! Prabhupāda: I think your mother will not agree to that (break). Mālatī: Maybe his mother needs him. (break) The mother needs Tora to keep her in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) Prabhupāda: He's going to be a Nārada. Nārada, when he was five years old, he was thinking that "My mother is too much attached to me." And when his mother died, he thought free. "Oh, I am now free." Janārdana: At the age of five. Prabhupāda: Yes, at the age of five. And at once he went out. In his previous life. Then from five years till the end of life he cultivated Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and next life he became Nārada. Yamunā: Oh. (break) *Prabhupāda: I think that is described in the first part of our Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . That story is there, how he convert . . . how he became Nārada. (break) Mālatī: . . . twice a month he would visit his father. His father is a demon. So Tora carries in his pocket one nice picture of Swāmījī and one nice . . . on the back is written, tava kara kamala vare . And he sits and says that under his breath because if his father heard, his father gets mad. Prabhupāda: This is the age for injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If children are taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness from this age, the face of the world will be different. (break) . . . but they are not Hindus. They have got also orphanage like that. (break) It is very important. "I thought in that way. When my mother died, as the devotees of the Lord think, I also thought in that way. What is that? 'Oh, it is a grace of the Lord. My mother is now dead.' Because she is the, I mean to say, real cause of my nonfreedom. So she is now dead. Then I am free." *It is very contradiction from the materialistic point of view. It is said that bhaktanam śam abhīpsataḥ (SB 1.6.10). "As the devotees think, so I also in that way thought." What is that? Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ : "I thought it a special grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ pratiṣṭhāṁ disam uttaram (SB 1.6.10): "And I at once took leave of my so*-called home and went away." So that is the difference between the devotees of the Lord and materialistic person. *When their materialistic relationship, comforts, are taken away, they think, "Oh, it is all grace." And the materialistic person, when their materialistic comforts are increased, they think, "It is grace." Yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁ . . . (BG 2.69). That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Just like . . . there is a crude example—I think I have cited this example many times—that a foolish patient thinks that increase of fever is very nice. Fever, so what should be the ideal? Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, "Yes, it must increase." (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant. So doctor said: "The maid servant's fever is 105, so there is some anxiety. I give some medicine. And the . . . that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety." But the landlady became angry that, "This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!" (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is they are trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degree. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and . . . therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by ice bags and so many things, because to come to the fever degree, 107 or -8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree—atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists' advancement. You see? So this is the . . . so, and devotee, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brāhmaṇas , Vaiṣṇavas. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brāhmaṇa —not now; *in the Vedic system—the uṣca*-vṛtti . It is called uṣca-vṛtti . *Uṣca*-vṛtti means they will go the paddy field, and after the cultivator takes all the paddies, some paddies are thrown away. They will collect those paddies only. Just like birds, they collect. They collect those paddies, and that they will eat, not even beg, ask anybody for any morsel of food. So completely . . . *And in the Bhāgavata , Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that "Oh, this open field is your bed, this is your pillow, this is your pot, and the water in river is sufficient water, the tree is full of fruits, and in the cave, there is sufficient apartment. So why should you go, anyone, to ask for your shelter, for your food?" Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana*-durmadāndhān (SB 2.2.5): "Why should you approach the materialistic, puffed-up, monied men to give you some help?" *So Śukadeva Gosvāmī was strictly following this. Strictly following. Completely independent. That is not possible at the present day. (chuckles) If we imitate, that will be not good. We have to depose. Our Gosvāmīs, they have prescribed yukta*-vairāgya : accept everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is yukta-vairāgya . It is also vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya and yukta-vairāgya . *Śuṣka*-vairāgya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Māyāvādī sect, Śaṅkara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaiṣṇavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as kṛṣṇa-prasādam , actually: offering Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, living for Kṛṣṇa. This is the best use. *My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "The best use of a bad bargain." Everything in Kṛṣṇa relationship. That is yukta*-vairāgya. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). Vairagya means detachment. So when we are attached to Kṛṣṇa, automatically we are detached to māyā . Not artificially we want to be detached from māyā . Just like theoretically I know that I am not this body, but the bodily necessities are there because I am encaged in the body. Therefore the bodily necessities—eating, sleeping, mating, defending—should be done in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is all right. Then my consciousness is always in Kṛṣṇa, and I am detached to my bodily demands. And those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, their bodily demands is on the materialistic platform. They are going on, increasing the degree of fever and coming to the 107 degree. You are also going tomorrow? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (break) Your golden cup is very nice. Guest: Thank you. I'm glad you like it. Prabhupāda: Golden cup. (break) . . . gold plated. Guest: Yes Prabhupāda: What did it cost? *Guest: Twenty*-dollars. Prabhupāda: So I'll offer one day sweetrice to Kṛṣṇa in this pot. I have asked already Govinda dasi to make little sweet rice and offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then the pot will be used. Yes. (break) . . . India still, amongst the Hindu family, whenever they use some new thing, household, they'll offer first of all to the Deity. Every family has got Deity. Every Hindu family, especially the high class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , they must have. Nārāyaṇa-śilā . You know nārāyaṇa-śilā ? Janārdana: The stone? Prabhupāda: Śālagrāma . Janārdana: Stone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is worshiped in every family. Arcye śilā*-dhīḥ. Śilā, śilā means stone. So arcye , the worshipable . . . (referring to watch) I think this is correct. Janārdana: Yeah, it's correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Past five*-twenty. What is your time? *Guest: I have twenty*-five after. Prabhupāda: This is right? Yamunā: Yes. Well, no. It's five minutes slow. Janārdana: Think so? I don't know. My watch is ten or five minutes fast. My watch is always fast. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, this is still slow. This is correct time no? *Guru dāsa: Your watch is still drop*-proof. Prabhupāda: Because it is correct to the church bell. Yes. Church cannot be . . . (laughter) Janārdana: So the ceremony will be at six, yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Six*-thirty. *Janārdana: Six*-thirty. Prabhupāda: One hour after. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: So take care of your child very nicely. She is Kṛṣṇa conscious child. (laughs) Mālatī: By your grace. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Līlāvatī's child has grown very nice? Devotee woman: Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, it's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And what about that girl? Mālatī: Tulasī devī? Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, Karṇapura is beautiful! He's the best little boy you could ever imagine. Mālatī: He's already brahmacārī . Yamunā: He's just fantastic. Upendra, Upendra really loves that kid. Upendra picks up Karṇapura, and Upendra doesn't know about children. And he'll take Karṇapura and he'll make him kiss every picture in the temple, (laughter) especially at the feet of Lord Caitanya he'll go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Karṇapura will go, "bang, bang, bang" Smile! (laughter) Really beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Very nice. So Murari, you have got to say anything? Murari: I have got to say anything? No. I was just listening. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 18, 1968, Montreal (Conversation with first devotees going to London on evening of their departure) Prabhupāda: You can plaster together, up and down, and each and every one of them . . . each and every one of them is separately sevenfolded covered. The watery portion is beyond the sevenfold covering. And each covering is ten times more expansive than the previous covering. The Personality of Godhead creates all such universes by His breathing period, lies above the cluster of the universes. (break) Janārdana: So there's four . . . there's water, air, fire, ether and pradhāna . This is given. (break) This should be corrected. Prabhupāda: Third Canto, it is five coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in the Second Canto seven coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seven kinds of subtle, and these five covering is gross. So subtle should be taken. So subtle should be taken also. Janārdana: Yes. Is pradhāna subtle matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: So the subtle is moving the gross like the miller's wheel. The potter's wheel moves the pot. So the pradhāna . . . so the mind is moving the body. So the pradhāna . . . they simply put pradhāna . . . Prabhupāda: If it is mentioned five, then it is five gross, and seven means subtle. So five or seven . . . of course, seven is more explicit than the five. Janārdana: I never see anywhere where it is mentioned that there's an earth covering. It's always water as the first. Water is the first layer that's given. So there are four of the elements. Then . . . Prabhupāda: Then above water there is air. *Janārdana: Air, fire, ether. Water, fire, air, ether, and then this pradhāna . So pradhāna is split up into the three: ahaṇkāra, mahat*-tattva and . . . what's . . .? Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is material ingredient, material cause. Janārdana: Material cause. Prabhupāda: And prakṛti . . . Janārdana: Is the efficient cause. Prabhupāda: Efficient cause. *Janārdana: That is in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: I have the page. Prabhupāda: This is Third Canto? Janārdana: Third Canto. I have fragments of it. Satsvarūpa Prabhu gave me some fragments that he had. So I have a couple of books like this. (break) Prabhupāda: I shall put here. (break) . . . and you . . . the New York boys' opinion is to start a press in New York will be nice, because there is so many other facilities for press work. If the press goes wrong, there are immediate, I mean to say, what is called, mechanics to repair it. In other places it is not possible. (break) All right. We shall think over it. Janārdana: About the press in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Well, Montreal center has a room for a press. However, there is the inconvenience that the building may be torn down in two years. Prabhupāda: What about that other building, that storefront down? Janārdana: A storefront downstairs? I don't know all the details about that. I haven't been looking into . . . Prabhupāda: You told me that there is a church for sale on the other side of the park? Janārdana: Yes, there is. Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that church? Janārdana: It's on Esplanade Street. Prabhupāda: On the corner? Janārdana: It's on a corner. It's on the corner of Esplanade and the other street. I don't remember. I can go on my bicycle and take a look there. Prabhupāda: That's a very big building? *Janārdana: It is a three*-story house. It is about the size of one of these houses here, not the apartment houses but . . . Prabhupāda: That, some cross? Janārdana: Yes, there's a cross there. Prabhupāda: Pasture? It is written Pasture? Janārdana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That's small building. Janārdana: That is small? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen it. Janārdana: You've seen it. You take walks so far over there? (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's not a very big building. Janārdana: Not good enough for you. (laughter) Well, there's a synagogue . . . Prabhupāda: So what did you do about this building? You have not written anything? Janārdana: Well, I haven't had a minute all week. Prabhupāda: You must today finish it. We must borrow type and send it. Janārdana: Okay, I'll finish it today. All this week I was so engaged around the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our engagement should be on that point, that these people will not easily understand, so we are not going to waste time for nothing. If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. Yes. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. You see? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that photar kathara sei usane na : "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him." Especially in this country. If you become free speaker, then he's not taken into . . . very serious. So we must charge. In Boston, all the lectures Satsvarūpa arranged, they paid hundred dollars, at least fifty dollars. Janārdana: If they pay, then they will have to get something out of it. They will force themselves to get something out of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone paid. The Massachusetts Technical College and the Eastern University. Eastern University there is . . .? Janārdana: I think so. Prabhupāda: Then Harvard University and Boston University, and one church. They have paid, yes. And one church, Arlington Church, in that church . . . I think you were present there? Arlington Church? Govinda dasi: Unitarian? Prabhupāda: No. You have not been in Boston. Some girls from temple, they were present. Govinda dasi: Annapūrṇa? She was there? Prabhupāda: Annapūrṇa is always present wherever I go. (laughing) She is very nice, that she wants to follow me. This morning I was asking her that, "After your marriage, where you want to stay?" and she said: "Wherever you stay, I stay." And "I am traveling. Then you are married. You must have a place to settle." Anyway, in that church they charged us for meeting, but we collected very nicely. We collected more than hundred dollars. Yes. A very nice meeting. Janārdana: How many people were there? Prabhupāda: More than hundred. Because we collected hundred dollars, and almost, they have paid one dollar. Janārdana: The summer season is very slow in Montreal. The churches cut down their sermon programs. The synagogues don't having sermons in the summer very often. So that's why we haven't had so many engagements. But in the month of September things begin to pick up faster. The coldest time of the year is the busiest time of the year here, actually. The real busy season is January and February. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was speaking to Gaurasundara that Janārdana speaks, "The winter season is the busiest season," and you said: "It is dull season"? (chuckles) Janārdana: January and February are the busiest, and they are the coldest months, too. Prabhupāda: Very busy? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: How you are feeling, Śāradīyā? Nice? Śāradīyā: I'm fine. Prabhupāda: You are going to Europe? No? You have got to attend your school? That's nice. (to devotees leaving for London) So your program is starting tomorrow morning? Yamunā: Five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Five o'clock? Yamunā: That's when we have to get out. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So you are going by taxi? Gurudāsa: To the airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Yes, I think so. Devotee (2): You'd have to. Yamunā: Three taxis. Prabhupāda: Why three taxis? Mālatī: Two taxis. There are so many of us and so much baggage. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So for me, I shall be ready to start as soon as we hear from you. Yes. And tomorrow I shall expect mail. I don't think I am going to Vancouver, because from Upendra's letter it is not very encouraging, and I don't think Mr. Renovich will, on his personal account, call me and pay me. I don't think so. So what is your next program here? Janārdana: Then the next program here . . . well, the busy season will begin. So I'll go to McGill and Sir George Williams universities and some churches also, and I'll try to get speaking engagements. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . building? Janārdana: Possibly. Maybe I'll find a place on the other side of the mountain for you, because the man here insisted if we take this for September, we must take it for the whole year. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . means October, November, December? Janārdana: Until next year in September. Twelve months. Prabhupāda: Ho, ho! (laughter) That is not possible. Janārdana: That's what he's asking now. (break) Prabhupāda: Because in the winter season they don't get tenants? Janārdana: Well, a few will get easily tenants, but he wants to get a tenant for the whole winter. And September is a month when there is the best chance for getting a tenant, because that's when all the student population comes back into town, and this is a student district. And so in the month of September he would like to either get a tenant for the whole year or leave the place open. But maybe I can persuade him. Because it is not very easy to find a suitable apartment for only one month in Montreal. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . pare dhana parke diye nija labha cora : "I borrowed something from you, and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So . . . "I borrow from you and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Pare dhana parke diya nija labha cora . So that means this is warning: One should not do like that. One should not take responsibility for a person where there is no connection. *(break) Everywhere the principle of self*-interest is there. That is *(break) there. But real self*-interest is Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa we can do anything, because He is supreme Self. Bījo 'ham sarva-bhūtānāṁ ( BG 7.10). He is the Self of selves. (break) Where is Haṁsadūta? What he's doing there? Devotee (1): I think he's cooking. Prabhupāda: Cooking? (laughs) He's very expert cooking. (laughs) Janārdana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And Himavati also, assisting her husband? Devotee (1): I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta likes to cook. Yamunā: Oh, he loves it. Prabhupāda: So he wants to open a restaurant. Janārdana: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our, I mean to say, ISKCON restaurant. So you wanted to open that restaurant in our temple. Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? He is a very nice cooker. Janārdana: If he stays here to cook, that's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll stay. And I have told him already. And I have asked all the students in America chased by this draft board may come here. Yamunā: You're going to have to get a bigger building. Devotee (2): There won't be anybody left in America. Prabhupāda: No. In our connection, our students, let him come here. So these two boys, Jayapatāka and Vaikuṇṭha, in the same process receive. And therefore I was thinking that let us start press and restaurant and engage all these boys. Janārdana: Right, yeah. Prabhupāda: So you can . . . (break) . . . center. Why don't you try for that building? Janārdana: The building, the Strathcona, the government building. Prabhupāda: That is very nice, but other building in front of our temple . . . just not in exactly front. That big signboard. Janārdana: Oh, 16,000 . . . 15,000 square feet, a dollar sixty a foot? Prabhupāda: Dollar sixty? *Janārdana: Yes. We are paying forty*-nine cents a foot, and they are asking there a dollar sixty a foot. They are asking three times more rent than we are paying. It's very expensive. Prabhupāda: How many . . . there? Sixteen thousand? Janārdana: Fifteen thousand square feet. It is a fortified place, because they keep furs. They keep animal furs there, and animal furs are very expensive, and thieves very often break in. So I think that one of the reasons why it's so expensive is because it's fortified. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is that? Janārdana: It is a place . . . (break) . . . of animal . . . Prabhupāda: Fur, fur. Yes. Janārdana: And they are very expensive furs. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . very expensive. Janārdana: Very expensive. They want a dollar sixty a square foot per year, which is very expensive. We are paying 49 cents a square foot per year. Prabhupāda: Oh. I thought that because it is a downs floor, the restaurant can be started there. Janārdana: Oh, you mean there's another place? You mean that storefront downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Oh, that place . . . it's a green color, and the windows are covered with soap? The windows are painted white? Prabhupāda: No. It's a big building, big store. And big signboard. (break) . . . shall approach. (laughing) Somebody said, told, that is for sale? That was for sale? Janārdana: There is a store for sale. No. I think what they mean, the business is for sale. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . prescription, doctors never says in plain terms. Just like at the end of the prescription, "add water." This is real purpose. They will write "aqua pure ata". Nobody will understand. They will understand. This is also some of the medicine. Aqua means water. Similarly, you can say: " prasādam distribution," and they will have to consult dictionary, what it is. And you can say: "Oh, it is not restaurant; it is prasādam ." So at least . . . Janārdana: No. "Nobody is allowed to smoke in here, and they have to take off their shoes, so how can you say it's a restaurant?" Prabhupāda: Yes. These are technical. (break) . . . description, what is called restaurant that, "Wherever foodstuff is prepared and sold, that is called restaurant," then it will come to that category. Whenever they make some law, they give definition of each word, what do you mean by "restaurant." So today is another ceremony in the temple? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Huh? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. What can we use instead? Prabhupāda: Barley? Why? It is . . .? Janārdana: The stores are all closed today, and the boys searched everywhere. They didn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Some grains. Any other grain. Janārdana: There is whole wheat. Prabhupāda: That will do. Janārdana: Whole wheat grains, and there's rice. Prabhupāda: Rice . . . better . . . wheat is better. Janārdana: And what else is there? There's some . . . Prabhupāda: Sesame? Janārdana: Sesame? I don't know. Is there some sesame? Mālatī: Yes, I have some, and Annapūrṇa has some. Janārdana: And there's some buckwheat. Raw buckwheat. Prabhupāda: Buckwheat? What is that? Janārdana: Raw buckwheat. It's a grain. (break) Śāradīyā: What is the significance of using the barley and the sesame? Prabhupāda: Some eatables, that's all. Grains are eatables. Therefore I am substituting. They are eatable. There must be something eatable. Lady devotee (1): Does eatable . . . does Kṛṣṇa eat out of the fire? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady devotee (1): He does? He eats all that? Prabhupāda: Everyone eats. Kṛṣṇa also . . . Kṛṣṇa eats through fire. Therefore yajṣa is offered. Kṛṣṇa eats by so many ways, but people want to see that, "I give foodstuff; it must be finished." (chuckles) So for the rudimental seers and the less intelligent class, this is . . . Janārdana: Virāṭa rūpa conception. Prabhupāda: Virāṭa rūpa , yes. That is also nice, right, that through fire He eats, yes, or through the mouth of the brāhmaṇas and devotees. Two things are there. Therefore, according to the Vedic religion, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees, are invited to take food in some ceremonies. In śraddhā ceremony they are especially invited with great honor. In pilgrimage somebody goes to Vṛndāvana, Prayāg, Mathurā. They invite the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, so that through them Kṛṣṇa is eating. They have come to satisfy Kṛṣṇa in a place of pilgrimage. So these are the systems. *So for the purpose of eating, so many brāhmaṇas have sprung up. Because brāhmaṇas are invited, so, so many so*-called brāhmaṇas are there. They'll be present when eating, and when there is chanting of Vedas they are not present there. (break) Baby has also tilaka . (chuckles) She is very happy. You see? I never seen such small child not crying. That means she is always happy. She's not crying means . . . because baby cries when there is discomfort. And with her face shows that she is very happy. (laughs) (break) Yamunā: . . . swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Just see. Thank you. (break) . . . see? Girl devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. All very healthy, I see, because very energetic. (break) Śāradīyā: Simply by your divine grace, on Kṛṣṇa's appearance day in San Francisco my mother came to the temple, and she wore a sārī and a tilaka . Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) You are converting your mother to this cult. Yamunā: A very nice mother she has. Prabhupāda: Unless mother is good, how the children are good? Yamunā: Tora. Tora is one of the biggest, and he helped more than anybody. He would come home, and she would read to them from the *Bhāgavatam* . But he would tell her, "Oh, if you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, you must serve māyā ." And he would say: "That's māyā ." *He would tell mother that at seven years old, and he would explain to her. Swāmījī, by the end of our classes, he was actually understanding the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , being able to listen to it and ask questions about it. Prabhupāda: He gave you questions? Mālatī: Even at the temple when there would be lectures, and then the lecturer says: "Are there any questions?" Tora would raise his hand, and he'd ask very intelligent questions. Prabhupāda: Then why not keep him with me, your mother and he? (devotees cheer) *Yamunā: Oh, ho*-ho! Haribol! Prabhupāda: I think your mother will not agree to that (break). Mālatī: Maybe his mother needs him. (break) The mother needs Tora to keep her in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) Prabhupāda: He's going to be a Nārada. Nārada, when he was five years old, he was thinking that "My mother is too much attached to me." And when his mother died, he thought free. "Oh, I am now free." Janārdana: At the age of five. Prabhupāda: Yes, at the age of five. And at once he went out. In his previous life. Then from five years till the end of life he cultivated Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and next life he became Nārada. Yamunā: Oh. (break) *Prabhupāda: I think that is described in the first part of our Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . That story is there, how he convert . . . how he became Nārada. (break) Mālatī: . . . twice a month he would visit his father. His father is a demon. So Tora carries in his pocket one nice picture of Swāmījī and one nice . . . on the back is written, tava kara kamala vare . And he sits and says that under his breath because if his father heard, his father gets mad. Prabhupāda: This is the age for injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If children are taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness from this age, the face of the world will be different. (break) . . . but they are not Hindus. They have got also orphanage like that. (break) It is very important. "I thought in that way. When my mother died, as the devotees of the Lord think, I also thought in that way. What is that? 'Oh, it is a grace of the Lord. My mother is now dead.' Because she is the, I mean to say, real cause of my nonfreedom. So she is now dead. Then I am free." *It is very contradiction from the materialistic point of view. It is said that bhaktanam śam abhīpsataḥ (SB 1.6.10). "As the devotees think, so I also in that way thought." What is that? Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ : "I thought it a special grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ pratiṣṭhāṁ disam uttaram (SB 1.6.10): "And I at once took leave of my so*-called home and went away." So that is the difference between the devotees of the Lord and materialistic person. *When their materialistic relationship, comforts, are taken away, they think, "Oh, it is all grace." And the materialistic person, when their materialistic comforts are increased, they think, "It is grace." Yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁ . . . (BG 2.69). That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Just like . . . there is a crude example—I think I have cited this example many times—that a foolish patient thinks that increase of fever is very nice. Fever, so what should be the ideal? Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, "Yes, it must increase." (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant. So doctor said: "The maid servant's fever is 105, so there is some anxiety. I give some medicine. And the . . . that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety." But the landlady became angry that, "This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!" (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is they are trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degree. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and . . . therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by ice bags and so many things, because to come to the fever degree, 107 or -8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree—atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists' advancement. You see? So this is the . . . so, and devotee, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brāhmaṇas , Vaiṣṇavas. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brāhmaṇa —not now; *in the Vedic system—the uṣca*-vṛtti . It is called uṣca-vṛtti . *Uṣca*-vṛtti means they will go the paddy field, and after the cultivator takes all the paddies, some paddies are thrown away. They will collect those paddies only. Just like birds, they collect. They collect those paddies, and that they will eat, not even beg, ask anybody for any morsel of food. So completely . . . *And in the Bhāgavata , Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that "Oh, this open field is your bed, this is your pillow, this is your pot, and the water in river is sufficient water, the tree is full of fruits, and in the cave, there is sufficient apartment. So why should you go, anyone, to ask for your shelter, for your food?" Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana*-durmadāndhān (SB 2.2.5): "Why should you approach the materialistic, puffed-up, monied men to give you some help?" *So Śukadeva Gosvāmī was strictly following this. Strictly following. Completely independent. That is not possible at the present day. (chuckles) If we imitate, that will be not good. We have to depose. Our Gosvāmīs, they have prescribed yukta*-vairāgya : accept everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is yukta-vairāgya . It is also vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya and yukta-vairāgya . *Śuṣka*-vairāgya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Māyāvādī sect, Śaṅkara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaiṣṇavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as kṛṣṇa-prasādam , actually: offering Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, living for Kṛṣṇa. This is the best use. *My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "The best use of a bad bargain." Everything in Kṛṣṇa relationship. That is yukta*-vairāgya. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). Vairagya means detachment. So when we are attached to Kṛṣṇa, automatically we are detached to māyā . Not artificially we want to be detached from māyā . Just like theoretically I know that I am not this body, but the bodily necessities are there because I am encaged in the body. Therefore the bodily necessities—eating, sleeping, mating, defending—should be done in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is all right. Then my consciousness is always in Kṛṣṇa, and I am detached to my bodily demands. And those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, their bodily demands is on the materialistic platform. They are going on, increasing the degree of fever and coming to the 107 degree. You are also going tomorrow? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (break) Your golden cup is very nice. Guest: Thank you. I'm glad you like it. Prabhupāda: Golden cup. (break) . . . gold plated. Guest: Yes Prabhupāda: What did it cost? *Guest: Twenty*-dollars. Prabhupāda: So I'll offer one day sweetrice to Kṛṣṇa in this pot. I have asked already Govinda dasi to make little sweet rice and offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then the pot will be used. Yes. (break) . . . India still, amongst the Hindu family, whenever they use some new thing, household, they'll offer first of all to the Deity. Every family has got Deity. Every Hindu family, especially the high class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , they must have. Nārāyaṇa-śilā . You know nārāyaṇa-śilā ? Janārdana: The stone? Prabhupāda: Śālagrāma . Janārdana: Stone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is worshiped in every family. Arcye śilā*-dhīḥ. Śilā, śilā means stone. So arcye , the worshipable . . . (referring to watch) I think this is correct. Janārdana: Yeah, it's correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Past five*-twenty. What is your time? *Guest: I have twenty*-five after. Prabhupāda: This is right? Yamunā: Yes. Well, no. It's five minutes slow. Janārdana: Think so? I don't know. My watch is ten or five minutes fast. My watch is always fast. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, this is still slow. This is correct time no? *Guru dāsa: Your watch is still drop*-proof. Prabhupāda: Because it is correct to the church bell. Yes. Church cannot be . . . (laughter) Janārdana: So the ceremony will be at six, yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Six*-thirty. *Janārdana: Six*-thirty. Prabhupāda: One hour after. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: So take care of your child very nicely. She is Kṛṣṇa conscious child. (laughs) Mālatī: By your grace. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Līlāvatī's child has grown very nice? Devotee woman: Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, it's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And what about that girl? Mālatī: Tulasī devī? Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, Karṇapura is beautiful! He's the best little boy you could ever imagine. Mālatī: He's already brahmacārī . Yamunā: He's just fantastic. Upendra, Upendra really loves that kid. Upendra picks up Karṇapura, and Upendra doesn't know about children. And he'll take Karṇapura and he'll make him kiss every picture in the temple, (laughter) especially at the feet of Lord Caitanya he'll go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Karṇapura will go, "bang, bang, bang" Smile! (laughter) Really beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Very nice. So Murari, you have got to say anything? Murari: I have got to say anything? No. I was just listening. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) (end) Prabhupäda Comments on Prahläda Mahäräja Slides - August 25, 1968, Montreal *Prabhupāda: ...from where everything emanates. He is the source of all life. Whatever we see, it is in the Absolute Truth. All these universes, all these planets, all the suns and moons, the sky, and everything, they have come from the original source, the Absolute Truth. Now, in the material world we have got so many contradictions, but that contradiction is there also in the Absolute Truth. Just like fighting. Fighting is not a very good thing, but still, the fighting spirit is there in the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, how fighting can be exhibited? So the theory, nonviolence... Nonviolence is not absolute. Nonviolence and violence, everything is there in the Absolute Truth. But in the Absolute Truth, either nonviolence or violence, they are absolute. Here we have got bad effects of violence, but when violence is performed by the Absolute, it has no bad effect, it has good effect. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and Arjuna was denying to fight but Kṛṣṇa was asking him to fight. So the fighting was good because it was the will of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Therefore at the end of understanding Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna agreed, "Yes, I shall fight." So fighting for the matter of executing the desire of the supreme will is also absolute. It is not different from Absolute Truth. So sometimes it is... Just like we sometimes see mock-fighting, because that fighting spirit is there. The father and son, the little son is fighting with the father. That is not fighting, but the mock fight. But the fighting spirit is there. You cannot deny it. Similarly, the fighting spirit is there. Sometimes that is exhibited by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He wanted to exhibit such fighting spirit, so who will fight with Him? Ordinary living being cannot fight with the Supreme Lord. Therefore some of His devotees, some of His associates, must fight with Him. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Arjuna was inquiring from Kṛṣṇa that "You say that millions of years before You spoke this Bhagavad-gītā yoga to the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. The Lord said that "Many, many, many, many millions of years before, ago, I explained this science of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." Now, to eliminate any doubt in the minds of ordinary persons like us, Arjuna inquired that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are my friend. We are almost of the same age. How do you say that You explained this Bhagavad-gītā millions and millions of years ago to the sun-god? How can I believe it?" In answer to this question, Kṛṣṇa said that, "Both you..." [break] "...descended on this material world many many times, but you have forgotten. I remember." That is the nature of ordinary living entity. The nature is forgetfulness. But God does not forget. He knows past, present, and future. That is the difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. So the fighting spirit, it is to be understood. The fighting spirit is there in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and it is exhibited at a certain period just to teach us that when fighting should be taken. Fighting is not very good thing, but if there is necessity... Just like in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. The Battlefield of Kurukṣetra was organized by two rival parties. One party was pious; another party was impious. So Kṛṣṇa took side of Arjuna, and he was victorious. That is the history of Kurukṣetra fight. So the Lord wanted to exhibit His fighting spirit. And who will fight with Him? Therefore two of His devotees were resigned that they should go in the material world and fight with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no question of fighting. There is no enmity. Everyone accepts the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the protector, as the master, as the Lord, and they serve faithfully. So there is no question of fighting. In the material world everyone wants to be the lord, everyone wants to be God. So therefore there is fight. The fighting here takes place because everyone wants to lord it over the material nature. So there is difference of interest. I want to be lord, you want to be lord: now there must be fight. But in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is one Lord and all others servitors. Therefore there is peace. So fighting was not possible in the Vaikuṇṭha world; *therefore these two doorkeepers were sent to the material world by the plan of the Supreme Lord so that they could fight as Hiraṇyakaśipu and Hiraṇyākṣa with the Lord. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Now the spiritual spark is entering into the material world, penetrating seven layers. This is called avyakta, nonmanifested. Just like in the sky there are nonmanifested and manifested things. If you go high, some 25,000, fifty thousand miles up, you'll simply find in the sky nothing manifested. But if you go still higher, higher, higher, you will find some other planets existing. So the part which is nonmanifested is called avyakta, and the part which is manifested, that is called vyakta. So these two souls from Vaikuṇṭha, they are coming into this material world. So they're penetrating the nonmanifested matter. As the matter... Five elements-earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then... These are gross elements. And there are subtle elements: mind, intelligence, ego. And then spiritual. Our body is composed of three things*-the spirit soul, and it is covered by subtle body: mind, intelligence ego; *and there is gross body: fire, water... earth, water, fire, air, ether. So this universe, this universe is only one universe, but there are millions of universes, and they are covered with the gross and subtle elements. And penetrating that gross and subtle elements, when one comes to the sky, there are innumerable planets. The planets are seen, the suns and stars, like that. So the two souls, Jaya and Vijaya, they are coming on this earth. That is shown in this picture. Now they came as demons because they had to fight with the Supreme Lord. The devotees will not fight. The devotees are servitors, but the atheists, the demons, they are always inimical to the Personality of Godhead. That is the nature. Demonic nature means they do not believe in God. "Oh, what nonsense, God. I am God." Although he's a dog, he thinks himself, "I am God." That is demonic nature. He is being kicked every minute by the laws of nature, and still, he is superficially thinking that "I am God." God is not so cheap, but they have made to become God is very cheap. If you pay thirty*-five dollars to a person, he'll give you a mantra and you become within six months God. This is very nice statement and people will follow. Thousands and thousands will follow. But if you say, "Oh, you have to undergo much austerity, penance, regulation and tapasya," "Oh, this is botheration. We shall enjoy material life, and the same time become God." So these cheap things are exhibited by the demons. And when a demon is born, the natural disturbances are there. When there are natural disturbances, we must know that there is some demonic principle. That is stated in all Vedic scriptures. At the present moment, because we are increasing daily demonic principles, or demonic population is increasing, we are meeting with so many disturbances. So when these two demons, playing the part of demons, they also took birth on this planet, there were so many disturbances and this picture is there, that so many disturbances are being created at the time of their birth. Next picture? Ah. So when the demons became full-fledged human being, got this body... Demons and... There are two classes of men. One is called demon, and other is called demigod, or god. The demigod and the... The difference between demons and demigods is that the demigods, they are also human beings, but they obey the Supreme Personality of Godhead and they believe in the supremac Devotee: Whatever you think. Prabhupāda: It is quarter to nine. All right, next day we shall see. Come on. Let us have... (end) Conversation -- August 26, 1968, Montreal Prabhupāda: So your question, Rukmiṇī's question, Lord Caitanya's opulence . . . there are six kinds of opulences: richness, then fame, strength, influence, beauty, education and renunciation. So He exhibited all these six. He was very beautiful; therefore His name is Gaurasundara. Very beautiful—tall and stout and strong. There was no comparison of His beauty at that time, He was so beautiful, fair complexion. This time He did not appear in black complexion, because people after fair complexion. So . . . and son of a very respectable brahmin family, and very highly educated. His scholarly manifestation you'll find in the explanation of one verse: This verse was twice explained, two times explained: once before Sanātana Gosvāmī and once before Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was considered at that time to be the greatest learned man in India. At that time nyāya-śāstra , logic . . . amongst the learned scholar logic is the greatest weapon to get victory over his opponent. So learned scholar is always a very learned scholar in logic, nyāya-śāstra . So this logic was taught in Bihar, Dharvanga. India, in different parts of India, different kinds of education was imparted. In Benares, the Mayavāda philosophy was very prominent. In Dharvanga, logic was very prominent. In Navadvīpa, philosophy was very prominent, and nyāya also. Similarly, in Bharampura . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many places, just like at the present moment there are many places, university. So He was great logician, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In His boyhood He would ask His contemporary friends to argue with Him on a subject matter, and He'll defeat him. And again He'll establish it. The very point on which He defeated His friend, He'll again establish it, and again nullify it. He was so talented. His name was therefore, other name, was Nimāi Paṇḍita. *One name is Gaurasundara, another name is Nimāi Paṇḍita. Paṇḍita means very learned scholar. And that is not hearsay, that because we are devotees we are speaking of Lord Caitanya very learned scholar. The evidence is there in the explanation of ātmārāma śloka (SB 1.7.10). He has explained that śloka in sixty*-four different ways, one verse. He has described one word, ātmārāma , in eleven ways. Similarly munayo, nirgranthāḥ, urukrama, bhakti . Each word He has enunciated in so many ways. *So He showed His opulence in wisdom also, just like Kṛṣṇa showed His opulence by speaking Bhagavad*-gītā in wisdom, not only miracles. Miracles a magician can also show. That is not very important thing. A yogī also can show so many miracles. But scholarly presentation of a certain thing, that requires opulence. And the most wonderful opulence He showed that is very unique, especially in this age, that at the age of twenty-four years He renounced the world. *He had His very beautiful and obedient wife, Lakṣmī devi, sixteen years old. She was by name Lakṣmī, and actually she was goddess of fortune . . . and His mother was so affectionate, there is no comparison. So in a home where mother is . . . affectionate mother is present, and very beloved wife is present, and at the very young age . . . He was twenty*-four years old, and His wife was sixteen years old. Materially that is the age for sense gratification, but He renounced. He didn't care for His wife, didn't care for His mother. *So renunciation is also one of the opulences, and it is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam about His renunciation, tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita rājya-lakṣmīṁ (SB 11.5.34). Su-dustajya. Su-dus . . . Tyaja means give up, and du means difficult, difficult, and su means very difficult. In any word, if you apply, affix the word su , it becomes hundred times more magnified. Just like buddhi. Buddhi is intelligence, and if you affix subuddhi , that means very, very intelligent. Similarly dustyaja , "difficult to give up," and when you affix this alphabet su , it becomes "very, very, very difficult." So su-dustyaja , this word, has been used. *Tyaktvā sudustyaja*-surepsita rājya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34). Rājya-lakṣmīn means very happy home, home life, homely life. That is called rājya-lakṣmīn —one who is very happy at home. And the symptom of happiness at home, according to Vedic understanding, is the mother, wife and son. If one has got very good mother, one has got very good wife and one has got very good son, then his homely life is heaven. That is the standard of happiness. So He was young man, and although He had a wife, He knew that He would give up, that He did not begot children. So His children were His devotees. Vṛndāvana Dāsa Ṭhākura has worshiped Him, saputrāya sakala traya : "My dear Lord, I offer my obeisances unto You along with Your sons." So Vṛndāvana Dāsa Ṭhākura is offering obeisances Lord Caitanya, and specifically mentioning, "with Your sons." Where are the sons? He did not beget any children. So His sons means His devotees, His followers. Kalatra means wife. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu had all these facilities. He was learned, very honored young man in His country; He had many followings. In one incidence we can understand how beloved leader He was. The Kazi challenged His saṅkīrtana movement and first times warned Him not to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and when He did not care for it, then he ordered that, er, that mṛdaṅga should be broken. So the constables came and broke the mṛdaṅgas . This information was given to Lord Caitanya, and He ordered civil disobedience. He was the first man in the history of India who started this civil disobedience movement. It is not Gandhi who is the originator of civil disobedience; it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said that "Defy the order of the Kazi." Kazi means magistrate. So "This evening we shall go at the Kazi's house in hundreds of thousands, with mṛdaṅga and kīrtana ." So simply by His order many hundreds of thousands young men—not young men; young, old, all kinds of men—gathered, and . . . so . . . the point is just how popular leader He was. Even in His young age, when He was only twenty years old, how popular He was. So . . . and because He was a learned brahmin , people would send Him many presentation. A brahmin is not expected to work. That is dhana pratigraha . Pratigraha means accept offerings from others. Just like you offered so many things to me—money, clothing, food—so a sannyāsī , a brahmin , can accept. Not others. A gṛhastha cannot. There are restriction. A brahmacārī can, but he can accept on behalf of his spiritual master, not personally. These are the rules. So He was learned brahmin , and people used to present Him profusely, so He had no economics problem. Not that He renounced the world on account of poverty or some strain. He had no poverty; He was opulent. A brahmin does not require any great amount of wealth just to pull on his family. So that much amount was more than that He was receiving. He was teacher also. Paṭhana, pāṭhana, yajana, yājana. Brahmin's business is to teach and to become a very learned scholar and teach people how to worship Kṛṣṇa and become devotee himself, and accept charities from others and distribute it again. So He had all these opulences without any difficulty, and His family life—mother, wife . . . Caṇākya Paṇḍita says: *Cāṇakya Paṇḍita is giving too much stress on mother and wife in family life. So he says if one's mother is dead and if his wife is not very . . . apriya*-vādinī , and does not behave very well, ill-behaving, so Caṇākya Paṇḍita advises him that aranyaṁ tena gantavyam : such person should immediately go to the forest. Because in the Vedic understanding there is no divorce. If the wife is not very pleasing, there is no question of divorcing. *Cāṇakya Paṇḍita does not advise it, the advice that he should divorce such wife, but he says, aranyaṁ tena gantavyam : he should give up family life and go to the forest. Divorce was completely unknown, even up to, say, five years ago. Now this Nehru government has enacted Divorce Act in Hindu law, but actually, Hindu law*-maker, they have no such thing as divorce. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this is one of the brilliant examples of opulence, that He renounced His so happy family life, not disturbing life, and very . . . at a very young age, when everyone is after enjoying family life. So is it not a great opulence? Very great opulence. Young man, having good mother, good wife, good home, good reputation, good following, good parentage, beauty—everything—but He renounced. That is the greatest opulence. He renounced everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is the greatest opulence of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Similarly, if we can follow His footprints . . . not that we have to give up everything, but give up everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is very nice. (pause) So any other particular . . .? (pause) Yes. Devotee: His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī accepted both Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaurakiśora as his spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Gaurakiśora dasa . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was his father, and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . although he was householder and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was renounced order, still, he used to offer great respect to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura saw him a pure devotee; therefore he recommended his son, Bimala Prasāda. His former name was Bimala Prasāda, and he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī by writing one thesis on astronomy, astrology, astrological calculation according to solar system. So he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī. So this Siddhānta Sarasvatī, Sarasvatī title also accepted by sannyāsa . Sarasvatī, Bhāratī, Puri, Araṇya, Bon, Parvat—there are ten names of sannyāsa according to Māyāvādī school, and according to Vaiṣṇava school there are 108 names. So this " svāmī " and " gosvāmī ," they're also included within that 108 names. So he accepted Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī Maharaja his spiritual master. Yes? Devotee (2): Does our line of succession go directly to Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī or to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: No. Because he was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura as his śikṣa guru, preceptor guru, so it is in the line. Devotee (2): But is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura directly in succession from Lord Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): And Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī also? Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. Nayanābhirāma: Could you tell us about something about Lord Caitanya's production of Vaiṣṇava drama? Are there any of the plays that you know are still extant? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was playing Vaiṣṇava drama in His household life, rather in student life, and He was taking the part of Rukmiṇī, because He was very beautiful young boy. Formerly, in our childhood also, we saw in drama there was no females taking part. If there was a female part, the man would be dressed just like a female. Formerly, females are not allowed. If one has to find out a female for taking part in drama, then he has to find out from other quarters, not in respectable part. Now very, very respectable, educated girls are taking in drama and cinema in India. Formerly this was not possible. And perhaps in the theatrical performances, stage, that was introduced by Lord Caitanya, drama. But His dramatical performances were limited within the devotees. He will not allow to take part in the performance who is not a devotee. So if our devotees . . . that movie was very nice. That's a good example. If we play . . . train our devotees to present some dramatical performances or movie, I think it will be very successful, because they will play from transcendental sentiment, not for trade purpose. So that will come out very successful. Yes. *In our childhood we had the occasion of taking part in a drama, Caitanya*-līlā. I took the part of Advaita, and our friends, others, somebody took the part of Caitanya, Nityānanda. So that drama was so successful, it was unique in Calcutta. Because we were not . . . we were not professionals. I saw from the stage a huge gathering, they're all crying. (laughs) I was surprised, "Why these people are crying?" You see? It was great successful, because we were not professionals. We were not devotees at that time, but some of us were devotee by family tradition, but not exactly what is actually meant by devotee. But still, because we were not professionals, the drama was so successful, unique. And there was no female. Now Śacidevī, Śacidevī, the friend who take the part, took the part of Śacidevī, his shoulders were so big, (laughing) so just see. So there was no question of beautiful woman taking part. So still, the drama was very successful. Similarly, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu staged, all the devotees took part: Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura, Advaita, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda and Mukunda and other, all devotees. (pause) Yes? Devotee (3): It's said that Nārada Muni delivered the chant to the earth. How was it . . . was it there before he came? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): Nārada Muni delivered the chanting, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , to the earth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Was it here before he came? And what . . . how long ago did he come? Prabhupāda: That you cannot calculate. Nārada Muni is one of the sons of Brahmā, so he's present since the time of creation. And many great sages and saintly devotees are all devotees of Nārada Muni. Prahlāda Mahārāja is disciple of Nārada Muni, Dhruva Mahārāja is the disciple of Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva is disciple of Nārada Muni, Vālmīki is disciple of Nārada Muni. So Nārada Muni was very expert in getting disciples. He had so many disciples. Unlimited. Devotee (4): Swāmījī, what's the meaning of "Ṭhākura"? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura actually means God. So one who is godly, he is also addressed as Ṭhākura. Yes? Girl devotee: When we're dreaming, when we're asleep, are we in māyā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl devotee: Even when we dream about . . . Prabhupāda: So long you sleep, you waste your time. Girl devotee: Swāmī, even when we dream about Godbrothers and Godsisters? Prabhupāda: Huh? Girl devotee: Even when we dream about Godbrothers and Godsisters? Prabhupāda: No. That is not māyā . I mean to say, dreaming . . . yes. Sleeping means stopping your active life. So that is a waste of time. We should rather . . . the mind is always active, and dreaming means the mind is acting. So dreaming is not always bad. Dreaming sometimes very good. What I mean, sleeping is not very good. Hmm. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Dāmodara, what is the price of these films? Dāmodara: Price of the films? Prabhupāda: Suppose if we take film, very long film, what will be the cost? *Dāmodara: Well, in an eight*-millimeter, the size film that you saw last night, the other night, it's not very expensive. It costs a little more than a dollar a minute for, you know. So if there was an hour and a half film, it might cost $150. Not much. But to make a film of the quality that's seen in the theater, it's very expensive. An hour and a half film, it's not unusual, a hundred thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Oh! (laughing) Dāmodara: That's quite a bit of difference. You see, when you have sound on a film it makes it very expensive. And the proper lighting. It takes a long time to make a film that has the right quality. It's expensive. Prabhupāda: So why don't you get a financier? We can give so many ideas of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and we have got our players. Dāmodara: Brahmānanda mentioned that I should write to some foundations, groups . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dāmodara: . . . and I'll do so. There are a couple I've thought of. Making films on Vedic scriptures—they'll be interested in that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) Yes. *Devotee (5): Somebody said you want to film the Bhagavad*-gītā , Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you can take up, I can direct you. Devotee (6): In Sanskrit or in English? Prabhupāda: English. Yes. Devotee (5): Okay, Swāmījī. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But it will be very expensive to arrange for the war field. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21-22). We require so many elephants, so many chariots. That panoramic manifestation of war field, it will be very expensive. Where are the elephants? They don't find here elephants. Devotee (7): Oh, you can rent elephants. Prabhupāda: Uh? Devotee (7): You can rent elephants. Prabhupāda: You can rent, but how many you can rent? Devotee (7): Well, how many do we need? (laughter) Prabhupāda: You know, there is . . . there was eighteen akṣauhiṇī senā , eighteen groups of akṣauhiṇī . One akṣauhiṇī , so many hundred thousands of soldiers, so many hundred thousands of chariots, so many hundred thousands of elephant, horses. That is one group. Such eighteen groups were present there. At least, to make a successful scene we require at least fifty elephants to make a show. And chariots. Then it will be something sceneric. *Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, has not been attempted by any cinema company for this reason. It is very difficult to make arrangement for the war scene. This is not modern war. There are many modern war films. You can present that. But it is different kind of war. So if you want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then these things will be required. Devotee (8): Are there elephants available in India, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Elephants, there are many in India. Elephants, camels, horses also. Still there are many. Devotee (9): Could we film on location, on the battlefield? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The battlefield is still existing, Kurukṣetra. Yes. It is about hundred . . . about within two hundred miles from Delhi. It is not far off. (pause) That my red tape recorder is not replaced. Is it very costly now? Devotee (10): I think so. Yeah. About five hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Five hundred dollars, that may be Japanese. The original is English. Devotee (10): Oh, English? I thought it was German. English? Prabhupāda: Yes. German or English. That is eight hundred dollars. It was very nice. Yes. I therefore used to keep daily in my compartment. I didn't allow to leave it here. How you are feeling, Jadurāṇī? All right? So I think we shall chant little Hare Kṛṣṇa and close this meeting. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 26, 1968, Montreal Prabhupāda: So your question, Rukmiṇī's question, Lord Caitanya's opulence . . . there are six kinds of opulences: richness, then fame, strength, influence, beauty, education and renunciation. So He exhibited all these six. He was very beautiful; therefore His name is Gaurasundara. Very beautiful—tall and stout and strong. There was no comparison of His beauty at that time, He was so beautiful, fair complexion. This time He did not appear in black complexion, because people after fair complexion. So . . . and son of a very respectable brahmin family, and very highly educated. His scholarly manifestation you'll find in the explanation of one verse: This verse was twice explained, two times explained: once before Sanātana Gosvāmī and once before Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was considered at that time to be the greatest learned man in India. At that time nyāya-śāstra , logic . . . amongst the learned scholar logic is the greatest weapon to get victory over his opponent. So learned scholar is always a very learned scholar in logic, nyāya-śāstra . So this logic was taught in Bihar, Dharvanga. India, in different parts of India, different kinds of education was imparted. In Benares, the Mayavāda philosophy was very prominent. In Dharvanga, logic was very prominent. In Navadvīpa, philosophy was very prominent, and nyāya also. Similarly, in Bharampura . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many places, just like at the present moment there are many places, university. So He was great logician, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In His boyhood He would ask His contemporary friends to argue with Him on a subject matter, and He'll defeat him. And again He'll establish it. The very point on which He defeated His friend, He'll again establish it, and again nullify it. He was so talented. His name was therefore, other name, was Nimāi Paṇḍita. *One name is Gaurasundara, another name is Nimāi Paṇḍita. Paṇḍita means very learned scholar. And that is not hearsay, that because we are devotees we are speaking of Lord Caitanya very learned scholar. The evidence is there in the explanation of ātmārāma śloka (SB 1.7.10). He has explained that śloka in sixty*-four different ways, one verse. He has described one word, ātmārāma , in eleven ways. Similarly munayo, nirgranthāḥ, urukrama, bhakti . Each word He has enunciated in so many ways. *So He showed His opulence in wisdom also, just like Kṛṣṇa showed His opulence by speaking Bhagavad*-gītā in wisdom, not only miracles. Miracles a magician can also show. That is not very important thing. A yogī also can show so many miracles. But scholarly presentation of a certain thing, that requires opulence. And the most wonderful opulence He showed that is very unique, especially in this age, that at the age of twenty-four years He renounced the world. *He had His very beautiful and obedient wife, Lakṣmī devi, sixteen years old. She was by name Lakṣmī, and actually she was goddess of fortune . . . and His mother was so affectionate, there is no comparison. So in a home where mother is . . . affectionate mother is present, and very beloved wife is present, and at the very young age . . . He was twenty*-four years old, and His wife was sixteen years old. Materially that is the age for sense gratification, but He renounced. He didn't care for His wife, didn't care for His mother. *So renunciation is also one of the opulences, and it is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam about His renunciation, tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita rājya-lakṣmīṁ (SB 11.5.34). Su-dustajya. Su-dus . . . Tyaja means give up, and du means difficult, difficult, and su means very difficult. In any word, if you apply, affix the word su , it becomes hundred times more magnified. Just like buddhi. Buddhi is intelligence, and if you affix subuddhi , that means very, very intelligent. Similarly dustyaja , "difficult to give up," and when you affix this alphabet su , it becomes "very, very, very difficult." So su-dustyaja , this word, has been used. *Tyaktvā sudustyaja*-surepsita rājya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34). Rājya-lakṣmīn means very happy home, home life, homely life. That is called rājya-lakṣmīn —one who is very happy at home. And the symptom of happiness at home, according to Vedic understanding, is the mother, wife and son. If one has got very good mother, one has got very good wife and one has got very good son, then his homely life is heaven. That is the standard of happiness. So He was young man, and although He had a wife, He knew that He would give up, that He did not begot children. So His children were His devotees. Vṛndāvana Dāsa Ṭhākura has worshiped Him, saputrāya sakala traya : "My dear Lord, I offer my obeisances unto You along with Your sons." So Vṛndāvana Dāsa Ṭhākura is offering obeisances Lord Caitanya, and specifically mentioning, "with Your sons." Where are the sons? He did not beget any children. So His sons means His devotees, His followers. Kalatra means wife. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu had all these facilities. He was learned, very honored young man in His country; He had many followings. In one incidence we can understand how beloved leader He was. The Kazi challenged His saṅkīrtana movement and first times warned Him not to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and when He did not care for it, then he ordered that, er, that mṛdaṅga should be broken. So the constables came and broke the mṛdaṅgas . This information was given to Lord Caitanya, and He ordered civil disobedience. He was the first man in the history of India who started this civil disobedience movement. It is not Gandhi who is the originator of civil disobedience; it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said that "Defy the order of the Kazi." Kazi means magistrate. So "This evening we shall go at the Kazi's house in hundreds of thousands, with mṛdaṅga and kīrtana ." So simply by His order many hundreds of thousands young men—not young men; young, old, all kinds of men—gathered, and . . . so . . . the point is just how popular leader He was. Even in His young age, when He was only twenty years old, how popular He was. So . . . and because He was a learned brahmin , people would send Him many presentation. A brahmin is not expected to work. That is dhana pratigraha . Pratigraha means accept offerings from others. Just like you offered so many things to me—money, clothing, food—so a sannyāsī , a brahmin , can accept. Not others. A gṛhastha cannot. There are restriction. A brahmacārī can, but he can accept on behalf of his spiritual master, not personally. These are the rules. So He was learned brahmin , and people used to present Him profusely, so He had no economics problem. Not that He renounced the world on account of poverty or some strain. He had no poverty; He was opulent. A brahmin does not require any great amount of wealth just to pull on his family. So that much amount was more than that He was receiving. He was teacher also. Paṭhana, pāṭhana, yajana, yājana. Brahmin's business is to teach and to become a very learned scholar and teach people how to worship Kṛṣṇa and become devotee himself, and accept charities from others and distribute it again. So He had all these opulences without any difficulty, and His family life—mother, wife . . . Caṇākya Paṇḍita says: *Cāṇakya Paṇḍita is giving too much stress on mother and wife in family life. So he says if one's mother is dead and if his wife is not very . . . apriya*-vādinī , and does not behave very well, ill-behaving, so Caṇākya Paṇḍita advises him that aranyaṁ tena gantavyam : such person should immediately go to the forest. Because in the Vedic understanding there is no divorce. If the wife is not very pleasing, there is no question of divorcing. *Cāṇakya Paṇḍita does not advise it, the advice that he should divorce such wife, but he says, aranyaṁ tena gantavyam : he should give up family life and go to the forest. Divorce was completely unknown, even up to, say, five years ago. Now this Nehru government has enacted Divorce Act in Hindu law, but actually, Hindu law*-maker, they have no such thing as divorce. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this is one of the brilliant examples of opulence, that He renounced His so happy family life, not disturbing life, and very . . . at a very young age, when everyone is after enjoying family life. So is it not a great opulence? Very great opulence. Young man, having good mother, good wife, good home, good reputation, good following, good parentage, beauty—everything—but He renounced. That is the greatest opulence. He renounced everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is the greatest opulence of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Similarly, if we can follow His footprints . . . not that we have to give up everything, but give up everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is very nice. (pause) So any other particular . . .? (pause) Yes. Devotee: His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī accepted both Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaurakiśora as his spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Gaurakiśora dasa . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was his father, and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . although he was householder and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was renounced order, still, he used to offer great respect to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura saw him a pure devotee; therefore he recommended his son, Bimala Prasāda. His former name was Bimala Prasāda, and he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī by writing one thesis on astronomy, astrology, astrological calculation according to solar system. So he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī. So this Siddhānta Sarasvatī, Sarasvatī title also accepted by sannyāsa . Sarasvatī, Bhāratī, Puri, Araṇya, Bon, Parvat—there are ten names of sannyāsa according to Māyāvādī school, and according to Vaiṣṇava school there are 108 names. So this " svāmī " and " gosvāmī ," they're also included within that 108 names. So he accepted Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī Maharaja his spiritual master. Yes? Devotee (2): Does our line of succession go directly to Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī or to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: No. Because he was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura as his śikṣa guru, preceptor guru, so it is in the line. Devotee (2): But is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura directly in succession from Lord Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): And Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī also? Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. Nayanābhirāma: Could you tell us about something about Lord Caitanya's production of Vaiṣṇava drama? Are there any of the plays that you know are still extant? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was playing Vaiṣṇava drama in His household life, rather in student life, and He was taking the part of Rukmiṇī, because He was very beautiful young boy. Formerly, in our childhood also, we saw in drama there was no females taking part. If there was a female part, the man would be dressed just like a female. Formerly, females are not allowed. If one has to find out a female for taking part in drama, then he has to find out from other quarters, not in respectable part. Now very, very respectable, educated girls are taking in drama and cinema in India. Formerly this was not possible. And perhaps in the theatrical performances, stage, that was introduced by Lord Caitanya, drama. But His dramatical performances were limited within the devotees. He will not allow to take part in the performance who is not a devotee. So if our devotees . . . that movie was very nice. That's a good example. If we play . . . train our devotees to present some dramatical performances or movie, I think it will be very successful, because they will play from transcendental sentiment, not for trade purpose. So that will come out very successful. Yes. *In our childhood we had the occasion of taking part in a drama, Caitanya*-līlā. I took the part of Advaita, and our friends, others, somebody took the part of Caitanya, Nityānanda. So that drama was so successful, it was unique in Calcutta. Because we were not . . . we were not professionals. I saw from the stage a huge gathering, they're all crying. (laughs) I was surprised, "Why these people are crying?" You see? It was great successful, because we were not professionals. We were not devotees at that time, but some of us were devotee by family tradition, but not exactly what is actually meant by devotee. But still, because we were not professionals, the drama was so successful, unique. And there was no female. Now Śacidevī, Śacidevī, the friend who take the part, took the part of Śacidevī, his shoulders were so big, (laughing) so just see. So there was no question of beautiful woman taking part. So still, the drama was very successful. Similarly, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu staged, all the devotees took part: Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura, Advaita, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda and Mukunda and other, all devotees. (pause) Yes? Devotee (3): It's said that Nārada Muni delivered the chant to the earth. How was it . . . was it there before he came? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): Nārada Muni delivered the chanting, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , to the earth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Was it here before he came? And what . . . how long ago did he come? Prabhupāda: That you cannot calculate. Nārada Muni is one of the sons of Brahmā, so he's present since the time of creation. And many great sages and saintly devotees are all devotees of Nārada Muni. Prahlāda Mahārāja is disciple of Nārada Muni, Dhruva Mahārāja is the disciple of Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva is disciple of Nārada Muni, Vālmīki is disciple of Nārada Muni. So Nārada Muni was very expert in getting disciples. He had so many disciples. Unlimited. Devotee (4): Swāmījī, what's the meaning of "Ṭhākura"? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura actually means God. So one who is godly, he is also addressed as Ṭhākura. Yes? Girl devotee: When we're dreaming, when we're asleep, are we in māyā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl devotee: Even when we dream about . . . Prabhupāda: So long you sleep, you waste your time. Girl devotee: Swāmī, even when we dream about Godbrothers and Godsisters? Prabhupāda: Huh? Girl devotee: Even when we dream about Godbrothers and Godsisters? Prabhupāda: No. That is not māyā . I mean to say, dreaming . . . yes. Sleeping means stopping your active life. So that is a waste of time. We should rather . . . the mind is always active, and dreaming means the mind is acting. So dreaming is not always bad. Dreaming sometimes very good. What I mean, sleeping is not very good. Hmm. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Dāmodara, what is the price of these films? Dāmodara: Price of the films? Prabhupāda: Suppose if we take film, very long film, what will be the cost? *Dāmodara: Well, in an eight*-millimeter, the size film that you saw last night, the other night, it's not very expensive. It costs a little more than a dollar a minute for, you know. So if there was an hour and a half film, it might cost $150. Not much. But to make a film of the quality that's seen in the theater, it's very expensive. An hour and a half film, it's not unusual, a hundred thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Oh! (laughing) Dāmodara: That's quite a bit of difference. You see, when you have sound on a film it makes it very expensive. And the proper lighting. It takes a long time to make a film that has the right quality. It's expensive. Prabhupāda: So why don't you get a financier? We can give so many ideas of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and we have got our players. Dāmodara: Brahmānanda mentioned that I should write to some foundations, groups . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dāmodara: . . . and I'll do so. There are a couple I've thought of. Making films on Vedic scriptures—they'll be interested in that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) Yes. *Devotee (5): Somebody said you want to film the Bhagavad*-gītā , Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you can take up, I can direct you. Devotee (6): In Sanskrit or in English? Prabhupāda: English. Yes. Devotee (5): Okay, Swāmījī. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But it will be very expensive to arrange for the war field. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21-22). We require so many elephants, so many chariots. That panoramic manifestation of war field, it will be very expensive. Where are the elephants? They don't find here elephants. Devotee (7): Oh, you can rent elephants. Prabhupāda: Uh? Devotee (7): You can rent elephants. Prabhupāda: You can rent, but how many you can rent? Devotee (7): Well, how many do we need? (laughter) Prabhupāda: You know, there is . . . there was eighteen akṣauhiṇī senā , eighteen groups of akṣauhiṇī . One akṣauhiṇī , so many hundred thousands of soldiers, so many hundred thousands of chariots, so many hundred thousands of elephant, horses. That is one group. Such eighteen groups were present there. At least, to make a successful scene we require at least fifty elephants to make a show. And chariots. Then it will be something sceneric. *Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, has not been attempted by any cinema company for this reason. It is very difficult to make arrangement for the war scene. This is not modern war. There are many modern war films. You can present that. But it is different kind of war. So if you want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then these things will be required. Devotee (8): Are there elephants available in India, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Elephants, there are many in India. Elephants, camels, horses also. Still there are many. Devotee (9): Could we film on location, on the battlefield? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The battlefield is still existing, Kurukṣetra. Yes. It is about hundred . . . about within two hundred miles from Delhi. It is not far off. (pause) That my red tape recorder is not replaced. Is it very costly now? Devotee (10): I think so. Yeah. About five hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Five hundred dollars, that may be Japanese. The original is English. Devotee (10): Oh, English? I thought it was German. English? Prabhupāda: Yes. German or English. That is eight hundred dollars. It was very nice. Yes. I therefore used to keep daily in my compartment. I didn't allow to leave it here. How you are feeling, Jadurāṇī? All right? So I think we shall chant little Hare Kṛṣṇa and close this meeting. (break) (end) Kirtan and Conversation -- September 4, 1968, New York *Prabhupāda: ( kīrtana ) ( prema*-dhvani ) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances) This golden frame is very costly? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: So why not frame all the pictures? Devotee: They were supposed to buy some but then somebody agreed to make them for a decent price, but he hasn't made them. I will mention it Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult to make? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone who knows carpentry work he can do that . . . It is to be cut in corners and then with some nails, that's all. This frame is very nice . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (end) Kirtan and Conversation -- September 4, 1968, New York *Prabhupāda: ( kīrtana ) ( prema*-dhvani ) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances) This golden frame is very costly? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: So why not frame all the pictures? Devotee: They were supposed to buy some but then somebody agreed to make them for a decent price, but he hasn't made them. I will mention it Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult to make? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone who knows carpentry work he can do that . . . It is to be cut in corners and then with some nails, that's all. This frame is very nice . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (end) Questions and Answers -- September 6, 1968, New York Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the price. That's all. Yes? Guest: You mentioned these miracles. The only miracle (indistinct) who has gone beyond the material encagement. That is what the yogi is trying, is striving to do, trying to go beyond the material nature. When one mentions miracles, it is surely a proof that he has actually transcended this material nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: But why, why are they trying to transcend material, transcend material nature? Who is doing these miracles? Or why try to do (indistinct) Why should human beings try to do (indistinct)? *Prabhupāda: No. The yoga practice is like that. It is very good, that "Why we should bother ourself with such things?" That is the opinion of the devotees. The devotees, they do not want any such miracles to perform or to make some jugglery to the people. They are satisfied with the service of the Lord. So that is the position of the devotee. But generally, the yogis, they want such things. There are many instances of great yogis in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, just like Durvāsā Muni. He wanted to show his power to Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. That's a very nice story. I shall narrate next meeting. The yogis, everyone, yogis... Yoga practice is, therefore... It is more or less material activity. Because when they are powerful to show some miracles and people become captivated, "Oh, he is performing such miracle thing." In Benares in India there was a yogi. His business was anyone who will go there, he immediately produced two or four rasagullās and offer him. And many hundreds and thousands of educated men became his disciple simply for the matter, rasagullā, which is only four annas worth. So people want to see this jugglery. And those who want following some or some material achievement, they want to show... Actually it is a fact. Suppose if I could manufacture rasagullās by some mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, oh, thousands of people will come immediately. You see? People want to see me, and those persons who want to have a cheap following, they want to show such jugglery. But a devotee sees... [break] ...is not of that mentality. They will simply, humble servant. They are satisfied by serving the Lord. That is devotee's position. So your statement, that "Why one should bother with these things?" That's a very nice proposal. Why? There is no necessity. Suppose if I can manufacture some rasagullā, what is the worth of this rasagullā? Oh, we can, if we spend ten cents, we can make it. So why shall I waste my energy for manufacturing rasagullā in the yoga system? Actually, therefore, Kṛṣṇa says that the perfection of, real perfection of yoga, the first-class yogi is he who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That is first-class. He is recommended. Devotee: When they perform these miracles, (indistinct) that is with their material body? Their material body (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes? Devotee: Why do you say that Jesus Christ performed so many miracles when he (indistinct), and you never said that Kṛṣṇa performed any miracles. When Kṛṣṇa lifted up Govardhana Hill, nobody said that was a miracle. But when Jesus Christ made so many things, they say it's a miracle. How is that? *Prabhupāda: The difference is that in Vṛndāvana they are pure devotees. They knew that "Oh, this is not a miracle for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa can do anything and everything." So they were not surprised. If I lift one mountain, you will be surprised because you know that "Swamiji is man. How he is lifting?" But they know that Kṛṣṇa is all*-powerful. So there was no surprise. It is just like natural work. They were so much affectionate to Kṛṣṇa that... He was not only lifting. Every day He was doing so much great performances, and His boyfriends, they would come home, and they would narrate the story to their mothers, "Oh, mother, today Kṛṣṇa performed like this. There was a great demon, and He killed him immediately." And the mother will say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa did that? He is very nice boy, very nice." (laughter) Because they were so affectionate to Kṛṣṇa, they always think, "Everything is possible for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is so nice. Kṛṣṇa is so great." That is their idea. So (indistinct) that is not miracle. That is ordinary thing for Him. Just like Yaśodā. Kṛṣṇa's friends complained, "Mother Yaśodā, Kṛṣṇa has eaten earth. You gave Him sweetmeat, but He was not eating sweetmeat." You know. The boys, they complain each other and again make friends. So Yaśodā was..., "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, I gave You sweetmeats. You are eating earth?" "No, mother. I have not eaten. They are telling false." And they were still, "Yes. We have seen, mother, He has eaten." Then mother asked Him, "Oh, show Your face. Open Your mouth. I want to see." So He opened His mouth, and she saw all the universe within His mouth, not only earth, the whole planets, sun and moon, and everything, within His mouth. Then she thought, "Oh, what I have seen? All right. Don't do it." That's all. (laughter) She is not at all surprised. She thought that "I saw something. Maybe I wrong or right. All right. Don't do it." That's all. So they were so much affectionate to Kṛṣṇa that Kṛṣṇa's this jugglery could not enchant them. (chuckles) You see? Therefore Kṛṣṇa said to the gopīs that "Your love is so pure that it is not possible for Me to repay." Kṛṣṇa is declaring insolvent to pay their debt. "You be satisfied with your love only. I cannot repay." That is the position of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa and the residents of Vṛndāvana so affectionately connected, that there is no such conception that "Kṛṣṇa is God, Kṛṣṇa can play wonderful things." They simply love Kṛṣṇa. And out of love they forget everything. "All right. That's all right. That's all right." So that ecstasy of love is only possible in Vṛndāvana. [break] Pradyumna: Is there a difference in the quality of service between a person who is, just accepts outright Kṛṣṇa, service to Kṛṣṇa, and one who wants to scrutinize and inquire more and more about it, between someone who just accepts, "That's it, this and this," and someone who inquires more and more? *Prabhupāda: One who loves Kṛṣṇa without inquiry, that is nice position. To inquire about Kṛṣṇa is knowledge. And pure devotion is transcendental to knowledge. Love does not depend on the greatness. If a boy loves a girl or the girl loves a boy, even in this material field, it does not depend on the greatness of the boy. Of course, here everything is on material consideration. But actual love is without any consideration, what He is or what He isn't. That is real love. That is the perfectional stage of love, without inquiring how great He is or what He is. But for the neophytes it is necessary to know about Kṛṣṇa. Because we have no love, so if we understand that Kṛṣṇa is so great, then gradually we can love. Our position is different because when... Therefore Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, it is said that siddhānta boliya citte na kara ālasa: "Try to understand about Kṛṣṇa." Just like Kṛṣṇa is explaining in Bhagavad-gītā that "I am this amongst the trees. I am this. I am this planet. Amongst this, I am this. I am this." So just to impress upon the neophyte devotees about the greatness... And those who are advanced devotees, they do not want to see whether Kṛṣṇa is great or small. They simply love Him. That's all. That is pure love. In Vṛndāvana, at least these gopīs, they never saw Kṛṣṇa's any jugglery or any greatness. But they still love, pure love. Pure love means Candanacarya: ...to know something about Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct) I think you have to know something about Kṛṣṇa before you know Him to love Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained. For ordinary neophyte devotees... This is the highest stage. The stage of the gopīs or the cowherd boys playing with Kṛṣṇa, oh, they are kṛta-punya-puñjāḥ. Many, many lives they have undergone many types of sacrifices, austerities, penances, and then they have come to that stage. That stage is not ordinary stage. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena, māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa sākaṁ vijahruḥ kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. He is describing when Kṛṣṇa was playing with His cowherds boy. So he is describing that "These cowherds boy-who are they? They are living entities who have amassed volumes and volumes of pious activities." Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. "After many, many lives Just like bank balance increases, similarly, one who has increased the balance of pious activities for many, many thousands of lives, oh, such persons are now playing with Kṛṣṇa. They have taken the body of His cowherds boy, transcendental spiritual body, and just they are playing with Kṛṣṇa. And who is Kṛṣṇa?" Itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtya: "The great saints and sages who are trying to understand the Supreme Brahman, here is Kṛṣṇa. That Supreme Brahman is here, playing." Itthaṁ satāṁ brahma-sukhanubhutya dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena: "The impersonalist Brahman is... Because Kṛṣṇa's effulgence is impersonal Brahman, so here is He." And dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ: "Those who are devotees, those who have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the master, for them here is Kṛṣṇa." And māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakeṇa: "And those who are materialistic-they simply think Kṛṣṇa is ordinary boy or man*-He is also there. But who are these boys? They are playing with the same person who is Brahman, who is Bhagavān, or who is ordinary man, according to different calculation. But these boys who are playing with Him, they have accumulated many, many lives' heaps of pious activities." They are not ordinary men. So all these gopīs, all the cowherds boy in Vṛndāvana, they are not ordinary living entities. They have approached that stage after many, many pious activities. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. After brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Their position is different. Therefore they have reached that unalloyed stage: without any consideration, simply loving Kṛṣṇa. That stage they have passed already. There is no such consideration. Pure love. That is pure love. Pure love means anyābhilāśitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. There is no question of knowledge. What these gopīs...? They were damsels, cowherds girls. They had no study of Vedānta or anything knowledge. Simply ordinary village girls. How they attained such love for Kṛṣṇa? That is not ordinary thing. So it is not a thing that one should attain the transcendental loving platform of Kṛṣṇa by studying. No. vinā mahat-pāda-rajo 'bhiṣekam. It can be achieved by the grace of Kṛṣṇa or by the grace of Kṛṣṇa's devotees. It is not that because one is very learned, he will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Or because one is rich, therefore he will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, or because one is great mystic, therefore he will. No. That will come... vinā mahat-pāda-rajo 'bhiṣekam. It cannot be achieved without touching the dust of lotus feet of a great devotee. That is the affect. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle Prabhupāda: ...Personality of Godhead, who stops our struggle for existence and raises to the platform of eternal life, bliss, and knowledge. To be more clear, everyone is trying to get eternal life. The whole human society is trying to get the highest perfection of knowledge, and they are trying also, by so many methods, to become happy, blissful. But they are being confused and baffled. Therefore if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things will be easily achieved. Interviewer: Would you give me a background, the history and origin of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No history can trace out the origin of Kṛṣṇa consciousness because the living entities, they are eternal. The bodily concept of life is not correct. Nobody dies, nobody takes birth. Everyone is eternal. This change of body is considered a change of dress. Therefore nobody can say that "This is the beginning of life." So whenever there is life, there is consciousness also, and originally the consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But due to our long material association that consciousness is covered. Therefore we are out of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This movement is to revive that Kṛṣṇa consciousness again, so that he can be raised to his original position. Interviewer: Would you describe where Kṛṣṇa consciousness started and why you have come to the Western world? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. It is a very popular and old literature, Vedic literature, known all over the world. But so far the history of this Bhagavad-gītā is concerned, there are difference of opinions, but factually even if we take it as it is, it is at least five thousand years old. And in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that five thousand years ago it was spoken on the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. But before that, some millions of years ago, the same Bhagavad-gītā was spoken long, long ago. So actually the human effort cannot trace out the history of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but taking consideration of the present history, it is at least as old as five thousand years. Interviewer: Govinda told me that it started five hundred years ago in Western Bengal. Could you elucidate on this please? *Prabhupāda: This Bhagavad*-gītā is read by the human society not only in India, but outside India, since a very long, long time. But unfortunately, as everything is deteriorated by the contact of material contamination, so people began to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in different ways. Therefore about five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya appeared, and he started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement under His personal guidance in Bengal. His birthplace is known as Navadvīpa. Now, He ordered every Indian to spread this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, in every village, every town. That was His order. But unfortunately, since India was under foreign subjugation, they could not spread, or they lost their own independence of culture. But everyone expected after declaration of independence by India, such things should come to the outside world. But the government did not take much care of it. So far I am concerned, I belong to Lord Caitanya's disciplic succession, and my spiritual master, who was just ninth generation from Lord Caitanya, he ordered me that "You try to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western world." Therefore in pursuance of his order, I have come here. Interviewer: Where is Kṛṣṇa consciousness most common in the world, and how widespread is it in India? Prabhupāda: In India Kṛṣṇa consciousness is cent percent spread. Every Indian, even if he is not Hindu, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is one professor in Allahabad University. He is Mohammedan by religion, but he is a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. On the birthday of Kṛṣṇa he would fast the whole day, and he would write one article to some paper. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is heart and soul of every Indian. One may differ, one may not agree, or there are so many different classes of men, but Kṛṣṇa is known cent percent in India. Interviewer: Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness more easily accepted among Indians and among Far Eastern peoples than among the Western peoples? Prabhupāda: It is the easiest method conceivable because the method is so easy that we simply ask people to come and chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. And it is actually experienced that in this country, all my disciples, they are neither Indian, nor Hindu, nor they know the Sanskrit words, everything is unknown to them, but still, they are taking so seriously. That is the proof how it is easier, that it can be spread all over the world. Interviewer: I mean, just is Kṛṣṇa consciousness more readily accepted by the Far Eastern peoples? That is does their way of life make the acceptance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness any more easy than here in America? For instance, Americans are constantly rushing around and Europeans somewhat less. But they find it more difficult to be tranquil and peaceful than the Eastern peoples. For this reason, might it not be harder for Western peoples to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Interviewer: Is there conflict with other Eastern religions, and if so, how far is this spread? Prabhupāda: There is no conflict at all. The conflict is between persons who are godless, who does not believe in God. Conflict is there. The conflict is not between East and West; *the conflict is between the atheists and the theists. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not that we are trying to replace something by Indian method to Christian method or Jewish method. That is not our policy. This is... In one sense, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the post*-graduate study of all religions. What is the method of religion? To accept the authority of God. That is the primary principle of every religion, may be Christian religion or Hindu religion or Mohammedan religion. It doesn't matter. But people are becoming godless. That is the problem. They are thinking that "There is no God. Nature is everything." That is their foolishness. They are unhappy for this godlessness. And as a result of this godlessness, the Communist party have sprang up, the hippies have sprang up and so many other things will gradually spring up. So there is no check. It is... The only check is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if people are taught that he can be happy only by reestablishing his eternal relationship with God. So our test of religion is how one has developed his God consciousness or love of God. We do not accept any principle of religion as genuine if we see that the followers have no love of God but they have got love of matter. We testify the, I mean to say, bona fides of a religious principle... Of course, in religious principle there is the teaching to become God conscious, to accept the authority of God, but because they are not properly taught, the followers are becoming godless, not only here, in India also. That is the position everywhere. So our proposition is to make people God conscious. It doesn't matter what he is. Either he is Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan, it doesn't matter. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness procedure is to raise or to develop love of Godhead. And as soon as he develops love of Godhead, then he becomes happy individually and collectively because there is love. He wants to love somebody else, but he is placing his love wrongly. He is placing his love... Even one has nobody to love, he is loving cats and dogs. So love is there, but he does not know where to place his love and be happy. This is the information, Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Then love is the most important element of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How do you feel about Christians, Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, then? Are their other beliefs of real, of no importance to you just so long as they believe in one God and in love? *Prabhupāda: So far Hindu religion is concerned, it is a very broad thinking. The Hindu religion, Vedic religion, is divided into two kinds of philosophers. One kinds of philosopher is the impersonalist. They take the Absolute Truth as impersonal, all*-pervading impersonal. And the another philosophers, they take that the Supreme Absolute Truth is person. The impersonal feature is one of the features of that person, but ultimately he is person. So without person there cannot be any question of love. Therefore the section who believes in person... Not believing, they know actually what He is, and there is method how to love that person. The example is given: just like the sun and the sunshine and the predominating Deity in the sun globe, similarly, one who comes to the light, he first of all sees the sunshine. That is impersonal. Then, if he goes further, if he is able to go to the sun planet, that is localized. And if he can enter into the sun planet and see the predominating deity there, then he is a person. So this is a vast science. People are too much engrossed with material activities. They do not try to understand actually what is the position of Absolute Truth, what is the position of the soul. Practically in the present day they are more or less animalistic. Just like animal does not know anything beyond eating, sleeping, mating and defending, similarly, the modern civilization is too much busy for increasing the method of eating and increasing the process of comfortable life or sleeping, and increasing the matter of, method of sexual life, or increasing the method of defense. So these things, are found even in the animals. They also eat, they also sleep, they also have sex life and they also defend in their own way. So human life is not limited within these four walls. He has to understand what he is, what is this world, what is this creation, what is God, how it is going on. But they are neglecting that fact. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness will give information to this department of knowledge. Interviewer: What are other major beliefs besides love, understanding of Kṛṣṇa, understanding of oneself, which you would like to impart to me? Prabhupāda: Love is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and love is the basic principle of all our activities. So love is there, dormant, but that love is not being properly utilized. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the movement to revive that original love and the original person with whom that loving transaction can be executed. Interviewer: What are other major beliefs besides love, to which you ascribe? Prabhupāda: Other belief, they are also based on the principle of love. That is actually not belief; that is misbelief. Because any religious principle... Just like Buddhism. Buddhism, actually, they do not believe in God, but they have love for Lord Buddha. So love is there. They may declare that "We don't believe in God," but they love Lord Buddha. And according to our Vedic scripture, Lord Buddha is also incarnation of God. So we interpret in this way, that Lord Buddha preached among the atheists by cheating them. Oh, how it is? That they did not believe in God, and Lord Buddha said, "Oh, yes, there is no God. But you love Me." So they are loving Lord Buddha. Similarly, there are many persons. They do not believe in family life, they do not believe in so many things, but love is there. He is sleeping with a cat, with a dog. So in no circumstances you can avoid love, but they are suffering because the love is misplaced and misused. Interviewer: As far as rites which you practice and demands upon you which Kṛṣṇa makes, what are any of these rites or demands? That is must you eat special foods, wear special clothing, special..., anything special which you put upon your face, sign, symbols, and also, is there any connection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the meditation of yoga or of Zen, and what of physical fitness? How does Kṛṣṇa consciousness look at this? *Prabhupāda: Our process is to accept everything which conduces to develop Kṛṣṇa's love. So those methods are given by experienced ācāryas, that "You just follow." Just like when a child tries to walk, the mother gives some direction or some help in a wooden plank, that "You try to move in this way. You will learn how to walk," similarly, there are certain principles given by experienced ācāryas. If we follow those principles, then we can work or we can go to the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not the method that is important. The real important is how to develop your love of Kṛṣṇa. If somebody develops love of Kṛṣṇa, or God, without those methods, there is no objection. We are not limited by the methods or ritualistic methods. But there are certain ritualistic method, which, if one follows, then he can quickly learn the art of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like we restrict our students in four principles: illicit sex life and intoxication, gambling, and meat*-eating. So it is not that a gambler or a meat-eater or a man addicted to illicit sex life, he cannot love Kṛṣṇa. It is not that. But that is very rare case. If he follows these principles, then it will be easier for him. Because Kṛṣṇa, or God is pure, so so long one is impure in his habits, it is not possible for him. So these are the purificatory processes. And so far our signals or some marks on the body-just like we take tilaka; *we have some beads*-this means... Just like it is practical. When I was in Montreal and other cities, when we passed through the road, the children, the persons, they also said, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So these marks and this symbolic representation reminds others to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a policeman, as soon as he appears in his dress, "Oh, here is a policeman," so similarly, these things are also required to remind others. Our process is to raise persons to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if by our symbolic representation one immediately remembers Kṛṣṇa, that is our success. Interviewer: And what of special foods and special drink? *Prabhupāda: Special food means Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Because we have dedicated our life to Kṛṣṇa, we eat such things which Kṛṣṇa eats. The impersonalists, they have no idea of Kṛṣṇa, they have no idea of God, and how they can conceive that the God eats also? So we are not such rascal. We know that what God eats, and we offer such thing to God, or Kṛṣṇa, and we take after His eating. That is our special food. Interviewer: Could you tell me the names of these special foods? How do you know what Kṛṣṇa eats and drinks, please? *Prabhupāda: As I have told you, that Bhagavad*-gītā is the book of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like any department of knowledge, there are some books to know that departmental knowledge or science, similarly, to know Kṛṣṇa consciousness there are many books and especially Bhagavad-gītā. In this Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who gives Me fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, with great devotional love, I eat." Therefore we offer these things to Kṛṣṇa in different preparations, and we know He will eat. And that's all. Interviewer: What types of food, what types of things do you drink, such as juices or anything else do you drink? Prabhupāda: Eatables are just within this jurisdiction of fruits, flowers, vegetables, grains, and milk. But we can prepare thousands of preparation, very nice palatable preparations. And I invite you to our temple. When love feast is distributed on every Sunday, you will see how they are nicely prepared. But they are prepared... Only if we get some grains and some butter and some fruits and some vegetables, we can prepare hundreds of preparations, hundreds, very, very palatable. You will forget all other eating. Interviewer: What are your teachers called, those who teach the members of the community of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Are they also gurus or anything similar to the gurus of the Hindu faith? Prabhupāda: The original guru is Kṛṣṇa. And just like He taught first the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle to Arjuna. And how Arjuna understood, that is also there. So anyone who follows the principle... Just like my great grandfather told something, "This is watch." Then my grandfather told, "This is watch." Then my father told, "This is watch." So I am also telling, "This is watch." So there is no difference of opinion between the old great grandfather and me because we are following the same principle. Similarly, whatever is spoken by Kṛṣṇa five thousand years or forty millions of years, it doesn't matter. If you are simply following the same principles, then you are spiritual master. Interviewer: Then your teachers are called spiritual masters? You are the spiritual preceptor, your holiness. And do you use the word guru? Prabhupāda: Our guru or spiritual master comes down from that disciplic succession. It is not that, that somebody all of a sudden becomes guru and manufactures his own philosophy. We don't accept such nonsense. We must accept somebody who is actually bona fide, coming in disciplic succession, not others. Interviewer: What is your opinion of yoga and Zen? Do you incorporate any of their principles? Such as meditation for example? Prabhupāda: Any principles of religion current in the world, they are all included in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, any principle. But just like if you have got two millions of dollars, the ten dollars, fifty dollars, five hundred dollars, five thousand dollars, or go on increasing, everything is included there, similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect. Just like in New York there is a building, Empire State Building. It is 102 stories. So one who has gone up to the topmost story, 102, it is to be understood that he has passed over the fiftieth story or fortieth story or tenth story or all the stories. So one who has become Kṛṣṇa conscious, he knows everything, the meditation, the yoga, this practice, that practice. Everything is there. That we can give proof. It is practically. So we have to simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be included there. Interviewer: What is your hierarchy in Kṛṣṇa conscious? That is, do you have anything comparable to bishops and the hierarchy of the Christian faith and of other major faiths? That is, you are the spiritual preceptor, and who are all those below you, between you and the congregation, the members? *Prabhupāda: It is not exactly the hierarchy, but in the Christian method, Roman Catholic method, the process of the Pope, Archbishop, and..., that is very nice. There is no objection of us. But our point is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is lacking. In spite of all arrangement, if people lost faith in God, so simply by hierarchy, what is the benefit there? There is no benefit. You see? Bambarambhe laghu*-kriya, in the Sanskrit word, that you can make a very high-grade arrangement, but the result is zero. So that hierarchical arrangement is exactly not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But our method is very simple. If one is fortunate enough to meet a bona fide spiritual master and if he acts strictly under his discipline, he also becomes within a very short time another spiritual master. Interviewer: How does one feel called toward Kṛṣṇa conscious? That is, does he begin by having faith or does...? What demands are made upon him? How does he come into the frame of mind where he can accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Of course, faith is the basic principle of everything. If you have no faith, then you cannot make progress in any line of action. So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also... Faith is the basic principle. Just like I have come here. I started my classes in New York. So I was alone chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somebody came. Naturally, out of inquisitiveness, somebody comes. Somebody came and, "Oh, what this Indian swami is doing? Let me see." So he sat down. Some other came. He sat down. Then some of them took it, "Oh, Swamiji speaks very nice. Let me come again." He comes, he comes, and then he gets some faith: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very nice." Then next point is that he wants intimate relationship with the swami, or me: "Swamiji, I have heard you so many days. I think it is very nice. So I want to be your student." So faith is the basic principle. The next stage is that he wants to become a student. And as soon as he wants to become a student, the next stage is that I accept him a disciple if I think that he is suitable. Then as soon as he becomes a disciple, he follows my regulative principles, injunctions. Then gradually he becomes free from all misgivings and naturally he gives up that illicit sex life or gambling or meat*-eating and so many other things. In that way he becomes fixed up. Then he develops a taste; he cannot give up the society, taste. Then attraction, attachment. He wants to do everything for the society. In this way he develops love of Kṛṣṇa. And in the final stage he loves only Kṛṣṇa and nobody else. And because Kṛṣṇa includes everyone, that means he loves everyone. Interviewer: Could you describe your temple to me? *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, we have got fourteen temples: New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Santa Fe, Buffalo, Boston, and Montreal, and Seattle, and one in New Vrindaban. We have purchased about 130 acres of land and developing there, New Vrindaban. And we have got now a temple in London, in Germany, Berlin. And we are in negotiation with Florida friends and we have sent one of our representative in Hawaii. So we have got so many temples. Gradually it is increasing. And boys and girls, especially younger generation... My, amongst my disciples, the oldest disciple is thirty*-five years old. Otherwise they are between twenty to twenty-five. Interviewer: How do you account for most of your disciples being so young that is, right after university age, and what have your inroads been here in Seattle during the month that you have been here? Prabhupāda: I have come here for the last ten days only. And at least two or three is already converted (in) Seattle. Yes. I want to see the youngsters in your country to be happy. Everyone wants that, but not only in your country, I want to see everywhere. Because that is the duty of every human being, to give information of highest happiness. That is the duty of every human being. The animal propensity is to exploit others. And human propensity should be to do good to others. That is the difference between animal propensity and human propensity. So here is a nice thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should you not distribute? Especially in your country where there is great need for it? They are not after economic development. They have seen much of economic development. Now it is time for them to take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and they will be happy. That is my mission. Interviewer: Would you tell me something of your own background? That is, where you were educated, how you became a disciple of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: I was born and educated in Calcutta. Calcutta is my home place. I was born in 1896, and I was my father's pet child, so my education began a little late, and still, I was educated in higher secondary, high school for eight years. In primary school four years, higher secondary school, eight years, in college, four years. Then I joined Gandhi's movement, national movement. But by good chance I met my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, in 1922. And since then, I was attracted in this line, and gradually I gave up my household life. I was married in 1918 when I was still a third year student. And so I got my children. I was doing business. Then I retired from my family life in 1954. For four years I was alone, without any family. Then I took regularly renounced order of life in 1959. Then I devoted myself in writing books. My first publication came out in 1962, and when there were three books, then I started for your country in 1965 and I reached here in September, 1965. Since then, I am trying to preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in America, Canada, in European countries. And gradually the centers are developing. The disciples are also increasing. Let me see what is going to be done. Interviewer: How did you become a disciple yourself? What were you, or what did you follow before you became a disciple? Prabhupāda: Same principle as I told you, faith. One of my friend, he dragged me forcibly to my spiritual master. And when I talked with my spiritual master, I was induced. And since then, the seedling began. Interviewer: Would you discuss your dancing with me please and explain something of it. I first saw it Tuesday evening, and I would like to know more about it. Prabhupāda: We don't this dancing as an art. It is automatic. We dance, we cry, we chant, we laugh not by artificially learning it. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. As you begin to chant, naturally you feel for dancing. So it is not taught artificially. It comes simultaneously with development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: What is the hand attire which you are wearing? What is the meaning of this? Prabhupāda: I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa whenever there is opportunity, and there are beads. So I am chanting on beads. There are 108 beads and each bead we chant sixteen names, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. So my disciples, they chant at least sixteen rounds. Actually... Interviewer: [break] I wanted to find out more about attending the services, that is, are there any books written about Kṛṣṇa consciousness here available in Seattle or any other organizations besides the temple? *Prabhupāda: We have many books already published. One, first, is Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. This is published by Macmillan and Company. You can have any number of these books from our temple. And the next book is Teachings of Lord Caitanya. That is also available from our temple. And the next book, in three parts, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So if somebody... These are the, I mean to say, covering of the books. So if somebody carefully reads these books, Kṛṣṇa consciousness science will be understood very easily by him. Besides these books, we have got our monthly magazine, Back to Godhead. So if the students... It is not very costly. The monthly magazine is only 35 cents per copy and the subscription four dollars yearly. And this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is only $2.95. Of course, this Teachings of Lord Caitanya, it is hardbound, it is $5.95. So they will be greatly profited. Interviewer: (inaudible) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Interviewer: What do you offer to Kṛṣṇa? That is, do you offer money in the sense of an offering in a Christian church or do you burn anything, for example, incense or could you explain this? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The flowers, incense, and fruits, the same thing. I have already explained that whatever He has described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone offering Me these things in devotion..." So we follow the same principle. So it is very nice thing. If the students follow, they can follow it individually. Even in his own apartment he can keep a picture of Kṛṣṇa and offer a lamp, a candle, and one, I mean to say, incense. He will feel tremendously spiritually advanced. And if he reads these books, his life will be changed completely. That is a fact. [break] And two boys, Kṛṣṇānanda and one German boy, is going there very soon. So, of course, we do not expect to sell English books in Germany very much, but maybe... (end) Room Conversation about Marriage -- September 24, 1968, Seattle Prabhupāda: I understand that she, she felt some inconvenience, that girl, in your company. Govinda dāsī (whispers): Harṣarāṇī! You're making... Prabhupāda: So she was... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I told her, I said, if she wished to come with us, [break] that only married women could come with us. I told her that. Because it was not good for men, unmarried men, brahmacārīs and brahmacārīṇis, to constantly be mixing, and so I felt that it would be better for married people than brahmacārīs. And she... (someone moves microphone) ...did she wish to come? *Prabhupāda: She likes this... (microphone noise) But also marriage problem, one must have a choice. So if we force something, that is not (chuckling) good. At least, in your country it is not... Of course, in your country, the husband...the boys and girls are, I mean to say, not major, whatever the parents force, that is another thing. When the boys and girls are grown up, it is not possible. Just like in India, there was svayaṁvara. Svayaṁvara means the girl will select her own bridegroom. That was allowed to princess. Princess, highly qualified princess. So the father would make a challenge, that "This is the condition. One who can fulfill this condition, I'll offer my daughter to him." So this was generally amongst the princes. So there was great fight. (laughs) Just like Arjuna. Arjuna married Draupadī. You know the condition? Her father made condition: there was a fish on the ceiling and one wheel was circling. So one has to pierce the eyes of the fish through the hole of the circle. And he cannot see directly. He has to see down. There is a reflection in waterpot. In this way, he had to pierce. (laughs) "In this way, he has to fix, and in one stroke the eye will be pierced. One who is successful, my daughter is for him." So nobody could, except only Arjuna. He was such expert bowman that he... Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra also made... In the palace there was a big bow. It was all hardened, made of iron. So long standing it was there. So one day, Sītā was sweeping the floor, and with her left hand she pushed the bow. It was very heavy. Nobody could... It was very weighty, heavy. And with her left hand she pushed it. So her father said, "Oh, this is wonderful girl. She can lift this. Nobody can lift it and with her left hand she pushed it? Oh, then my son*-in-law will be he who can break this." (laughter) So he made a challenge that anyone, any prince, who will come and break this bow, he'll be my son-in-law. So it was only possible by Rāmacandra, Lord Rāmacandra. So these challenges were made amongst the kṣatriyas. Otherwise, generally, the parents would select. We were married. Whatever our parents selected, we accepted. I did not like my wife, (laughs) but gradually, I was accustomed. I was obliged to like. That's all. (laughs) That is the Indian system. You like or not like, you have to accept it. That's all. The psychology is that the girls, generally, before attaining puberty if she loves one boy, she cannot forget him. That is her psychology. And a boy also, when he is grown up, the first girl he makes choice, he also cannot forget. Therefore, by some way or other they are mixed up. So in your country the situation is different. You see? The boys and girls are freely mixing, and from school, college, they are freely mixing, free sex without any restriction. So we cannot enforce, at least, at the present moment. If some boy and some girl agree, then I bless him. That's all. Now another thing, that girls should not be taken as inferior. You see? Sometimes... Of course, sometimes scripture we say that "Woman is the cause of bondage." So that should not be, I mean to say, aggravated. (laughs) That should not be aggravated, that "Woman is inferior," or something like that. So the girls who come, you should treat them nicely, at least. I heard that Gargamuni, after his wife left him, he became a woman-hater like that. (chuckles) That is not good. You see? Yes. After all, anyone who is coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, man or woman, boys or girls, they are welcome. They are very fortunate. You see. And the idea of addressing "prabhu" means "you are my master." That is the... Prabhu means master. And Prabhupāda means many masters who bows down at his lotus feet. That is Prabhupāda. So each, everyone shall treat others as "My master." This is the Vaiṣṇava system. So now, who is going with your party? That girl? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Śrīmatī dāsī. Prabhupāda: Śrīmatī? She is going to marry somebody? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. She has already had three children by a former marriage. *Prabhupāda: Nice if she does not marry, that's nice. Anyone who has got children, he should not marry, I think so. Because marriage means not for sense gratification. Putrāyate kriyate bhāryā, putra*-piṇḍa-prayojanam. To get nice son, that is the idea of marriage. Not for sense gratification. Those who are after sense gratification, according to Vedic scripture, they are, I mean to say, recommended to go to the prostitute. Therefore in Hindu society, still, there is a prostitute class. They are allowed... They do not allow it within the society. I mean to say, extravagant sex life. Especially spiritual life. Spiritual life means gradually forget sex life. Material life means sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex life because there is no birth, there is no death. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Although the women are very, very beautiful, many thousand times more beautiful than here... Their stature of body, their everything, youthfulness, everything. But still they are so much engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in chanting the glories, that they are not, I mean to say, influenced by the lust. That is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, in the Vaikuṇṭha. There are women. They also, men and women there is, and they also go by airplane, fly in the sky for trip, and all of them are devotees to Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa associate. So these things are described. So similarly, amongst the gopīs also. So in the spiritual life there is nothing like this sex pleasure. And the more we forget sex life, that means we are advancing in spiritual life. So this should be the attitude, that women, Godsisters, they should be nicely treated so that they may not feel any... After all, they are weaker. That should be our policy. Anyway... And if somebody agrees to marry, oh, that is welcome. There is no objection. Marriage is allowed. And so many married couples, they are very nicely living. Those who have gone to London, they were not married in the beginning, and I got them married. Similarly, here also, Harṣarāṇī and others. In New York also, Balāi dāsī, Advaita. So if the boy and girl agrees to marry, it is very nice. There is no objection. If not, they should be given all protection. Is that all right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's how it should be. It is just very difficult, you see, to travel. I have... It is difficult to travel with these women in the way. I remember what you said to me that the, originally, you were most desirous to have just married people, and you would travel with them. Prabhupāda: That is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So I was thinking that... And I was thinking the next best thing to that is just married people and brahmacārī. If you can't have just married people, then married people and brahmacārīs. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. That is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's what I told her. It's very difficult to have brahmacārī and brahmacārīṇis all the time together. *Prabhupāda: No. This is not possible. Because brahmacārīs, they are young men, and they are young girls. Naturally, there is dis*-turbance to the mind. Yes. It is just like putting butter pot on fire. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Nanv agni, pramadāgni ghṛta-kumbha-pāyaḥ pumān. Just like fire. (chuckles) Fire is a woman, and man is just like butterpot. It is said. Therefore they should not keep together. (laughs) Just like there are some labels in medicine and some..., "Keep away from fire." Huh? (chuckles) "Keep away from fire." So brahmacārīnī and brahmacārī is not a very good combination. But married couple and some brahmacārīs, that is nice. So this girl is married, but she is separated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And her children have been placed in the custody of the girl's parents. So the girl does not even have custody of the children. So she is not in any way, so to speak,... She does not have to stay in this city because of her children because the courts have decided that her mother will take charge of the children. She has brought them to the temple on weekends. They're very intelligent. They like to... Oh, they like the puppets. They like to paint and draw pictures of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But how she can travel with you? She has no husband. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. So what do you think? Is it all right for her to travel with us or better not to? Prabhupāda: Because she has no husband? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Therefore it does not look very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Doesn't look right. Prabhupāda: But in your country there are so many concessions. That is a different thing. But at least, in India, no... (laughs) In your country there cannot be any such restriction. In that way, she can go. But she is also, after all, young. She is also... Although she has got children, she is also young. She is not old enough. What is her age? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirty. Prabhupāda: Oh, just young. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I'm not worried so much how it looks in this country. What I'm worried about is the mixing. But people don't care. The public does not mind. Prabhupāda: No, if you think her presence essential, you can take. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Uh, it is not essential. We have never tried to have all brahmacārī kīrtana outside, saṅkīrtana. We have always had some women, so I've always felt that we need women. But maybe we don't need them on saṅkīrtana. Madhudviṣa: Did Lord Caitanya have women, householders traveling with Him when He went on saṅkīrtana? Prabhupāda: Yes. They were following. Still, saṅkīrtana, they follow. But they have got their husband. Saṅkīrtana, everyone can... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Children too. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Everyone. Saṅkīrtana means assembly. Bahubhir militva kirtayatiti saṅkīrtanaḥ. That is the derivation. When many people assemble together and chant, that is called saṅkīrtana. If you alone chant, that is called kīrtana. And when you chant in assembly that is called saṅkīrtana. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that what we'll do is take her along, and if it does not work out properly, then she can go to San Francisco. There are a lot of brahmacārīṇis there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And what about this girl? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dīna*-tāritā. *Prabhupāda: Dīna*-tāritā has gone. She is coming back? Devotee (1): We don't know yet. We don't know where she went. She didn't call us or leave any word. Devotee (2): Very, very unexpected. Revatīnandana: She walked out with a sack and said she was going to do wash in a big knapsack and then she never came back. Prabhupāda: She should not have gone like that. If she did not like, she should have frankly told me. This is not good. Madhudviṣa: She was in correspondence with her brother, and her brother was had some problems with drugs, taking intoxicants, drugs, and she wanted him to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and she was talking about sending him money to have him come to Seattle. So that made us think that she might have gone to San Francisco to try to bring her brother to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But she... Prabhupāda: If that is her idea, that's good, but why did not tell us? That "I am going to my brother's." Nobody would have forbidden her. She has taken some money? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two hundred... How much was it? *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: There was 200 dollars that... She was going to take 25 and send to her brother. The 200 dollars is not... No one knows where it is now. It has not appeared. And she had 30 dollars about of her own money. And this 200 dollars belonged to another girl that was going to give it to Upendra dāsa for the temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Temple. It was left on the table. Now no one can find it. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: No one knows where it is now. So she may have taken this 200 dollars. Prabhupāda: Then it is guessed that she has taken? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it is guessed that she has taken. Naranarayan: Uh... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't know for sure, but the money is not there. Prabhupāda: The money is not there, she is not there. So the natural conclusion... (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think this would have happened if she could have come on kīrtana. I don't think it would have happened. But what could I do? I mean, I told her. It was not... You see what I mean? There was... This is a problem because it is... This kīrtana is very nice for the women. They like to come on it very much. It immediately engages them. The first day they come into the temple they can come out with us. Yet it's difficult because... Prabhupāda: Difficulty is that... If the women get married, then there is no difficulty. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. But if they don't get married. When they are offered... Here is a woman. She was offered and... You see? It was suggested that she get married and because of her body she said no. She thinks she is, you know, she... That's the only reason she could say no, because material reason. Not spiritual reason. She said no because of her preference, material preference. Prabhupāda: Of course, so long we have got this material body, some material consideration must be there. (chuckles) That is not possible to avoid completely. Devotee (1): They shouldn't force her to get married, though. That was kind of a bad choice that they gave her, "Either get married or don't come on saṅkīrtana." You can't force somebody. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that wasn't the situation. It was not that choice. Devotee (1): What? You can't... I mean to say that you can't force somebody to get married. You know. That isn't proper. Prabhupāda: There was no force. There was no force. Only proposal. That's all. When it was proposed before me, I also said, "It depends on the choice." So anyway, go on with your work, saṅkīrtana movement you have started. It is very nice. And it is being responded. So increase it. If simply brahmacārīs can do it, that is best. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We would all like it that way. We would prefer it that way. Prabhupāda: Or married couple. If some girls want to go, then she may marry somebody. That will be nice. Of course, in your country there is no such restriction if unmarried girls go with you. But if she is married, that is better. So you make your choice in that way. So she is going? This girl? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīmatī? Prabhupāda: Śrīmatī? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. She wishes to go. I asked her, I told her, "So you have to get married." And she just said, "Oh, I have been married. I just want to marry Kṛṣṇa now." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. That is very nice. Yes. If one gets Kṛṣṇa actually, he or she forgets everything. That is sure. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ nādhikaṁ manyate tataḥ. After getting Kṛṣṇa, nobody wants to get anything more. He is full. Svamin krtartho 'smi. "My dear Lord, I am now fully satisfied." That is the preaching we are making, that everyone is trying to love something. Either personally his body, senses, or then expanded; wife, children; then family, community, society, and country, humanity; extending. But there is no, I mean to say, satisfaction. Because the real lovable object is Kṛṣṇa. And when he goes to Kṛṣṇa, then, oh, svamin krtartho 'smi. The same example: just like you are feeling hunger. Now, somebody told you, "Give food." So you are trying to put food in the nose, in the ear, in the mouth, in the anus(?), in this and that. No satisfaction. You give it here, oh, fully satisfied. We do not know where to put our love. That we are teaching, best spot. Most valuable conclusion. But unfortunately, they are not... Govinda dāsī: It's all right. Tamāla, it's ten after six. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, six. (end) Kirtan and Conversation Excerpt- Seattle -- September 29, 1968 *Prabhupāda: ( kīrtana ) ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. (obeisances) You have sold 120 copies? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you have to sell 120 copies at least daily. (chuckles) Thank you. (end) Kirtan and Conversation Excerpt- Seattle -- September 29, 1968 *Prabhupāda: ( kīrtana ) ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. (obeisances) You have sold 120 copies? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you have to sell 120 copies at least daily. (chuckles) Thank you. (end) Talk -- October 18, 1968, Seattle Prabhupāda: When you go to a medical man do you ask him whether he is Christian or Hindu? I am asking you. Suppose you go to a medical man, do you ask him, "Are you Christian or Muslim or Hindu?" Do you ask him? Guest (1): Me? *Prabhupāda: No, I am asking this girl. Why? Because your business is to cure your disease. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or a Muhammadan. It doesn't matter. Similarly, you have to seek love of God. Wherever it is available, you have to take it. That should be the point of view. It doesn't matter where it is available. One should be hankering after love of Godhead. Love of God. Gold, somebody is after purchasing gold. It doesn't matter where it is available. Similarly, it doesn't matter whether you develop love of Godhead from this scripture or that scripture. Your aim should be whether you are developing love of Godhead or developing love of non*-God. That should be the test. Guest (2) (older woman): Divine Master, I came to pay my respect and I'm most distressed that I need to leave, but there is series of people who are waiting for me, for a spiritual meeting also. So permit me to bow to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Please come again. Guest (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take some prasādam. Guest (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: So you did not question anything, if you have got any doubts? Guest (2): I beg your pardon? (devotees explain Prabhupāda's question) Do I have any doubts? Divine Master, you have made me able to read my heart. I have no pretensions to speak one way or another. There is no doubt. Devotee: She said there is no doubt. Prabhupāda: That's all right. (mild laughter) (end) Room Conversation -- October 20, 1968, Seattle *Prabhupāda: ...the whole atmosphere, you should come and disturb. You are making... You cannot understand? And the whole attention is diverted to you. So harā, harā is the form of the word... Hare is the form of the word harā when address, when She is addressed. And Kṛṣṇa, when He's addressed, the form does not change. This is grammatical rule. So Hare Kṛṣṇa means, "Oh, the energy of Kṛṣṇa, or energy of the Lord," and Kṛṣṇa, "the Lord." So Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa means I am praying not only to the Lord, but to the energy also. This is natural. Just like a man and woman. In whole world there is combination of male and female, either... Any society, human society, or bird society or dog society or animal society. Why this male and female? Why? Female is the energy, energy of the male. Why a man takes, marries a woman and takes responsibility...? Of course, in your country they marry as a matter of joke, immediately divorce after week or after seven days. But marriage means to take full responsibility of a woman. That is real marriage, Vedic marriage. We, when I get married our boys and girls, the boy takes this vow that "I take responsibility of your maintenance throughout your whole life," and the girl promises that "I desire to serve you throughout my whole life." So the woman, the female, is the energy. When a man comes at home, he sees that everything is nicely decorated, my wife is well*-dressed and foodstuff is nicely prepared, he becomes encouraged. He can work more nicely. Therefore woman is the energy. The woman gives the energy and he can work. Wherefrom this idea came? The idea came because it is originally here, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is coming from the Supreme; *otherwise where do you get this idea? Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Without being in the origin? Bījo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10], Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the root of everything." So if this energy, male and female combination, is a necessity, so wherefrom this necessity came into existence unless it is there in the origin? Therefore it is to be understood that the Absolute has energy. He has got different energies. By His energies He is acting, and that is confirmed in the Vedic sūtra, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. The Supreme Absolute Truth has multi-energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, multi-energies. And svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca, and by His energies he's working in such a nice way that it appears that it is being automatically done. Just like this tape recorder is working. How it is working? The electric energy is there. By the electric energy the machine is so nicely working that when it is replayed exactly I am speaking. So energy is working. I am speaking, my speaking energy is acting, electric energy is helping. This machine energy is accepting and a nice thing is coming. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is the manifestation of the energies. The rascals, they do not understand. And when it is stated that everything is Brahman, that is to be understood that everything is working under the energy of the Supreme Brahman. That is real meaning. But this is simultaneously one and different. When this tape recorder will play, it will play exactly I am speaking to you. There will be no difference of voice. If somebody hears from other room, he'll understand that Swamiji's speaking, but still, that speaking is different from me. Because my energy is working there. Similarly, there are two kinds of energies. Just like when I am speaking, this is my real energy, and when this tape recorder will speak, that is also my energy, but that is separated energy. Similarly, this material manifestation is separated energy, and there is direct energy. The direct... This material energy, separated energy, is the reflection of the direct energy. Just like when this tape recorder will be replayed it is the reflection of my original speech. Similarly, this material manifestation is a reflection of the original energy, internal energy. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that perverted reflection. ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham [Bg. 15.1], perverted, a tree. This cosmic manifestation is compared just like a tree with root upwards. That means perverted. Have you seen a tree upwards, root? Jāhnavā: I've heard an analogy to that before. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this material world is perverted reflection of the original energy. So this "Hare" means we are directly approaching the original energy of the Supreme Lord. "Please accept me, under You. Now I am under reflection. I am trying to get substance from the reflection." Suppose a tree is reflected by the bank of a river, the exact. So if somebody dives into the river and tries to take fruit from that tree, it will not be possible because that is reflection. One has to go to the real tree. So we are hankering after life, we are hankering after pleasure, but we are seeking pleasure in the reflection, māyā. Therefore we are frustrated, confused. Therefore this prayer is to the original energy. Without energy, without energy the Lord is not without energy. Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa, Sītā-Rāma. So God is always with energy. Without energy, he is incomplete. Sun without sunshine is incomplete. Is it possible? Can one think of sun without sunshine? Similarly, the Māyāvāda theory that the absolute is without energy, there is no energy, absolute is... They have misunderstood. The energy is not different from the energetic. Just like sunshine is not different from the sun, neither the sunshine has got any existence without the sun, nor the sun can exist without sunshine. They are so intimately related. Similarly, the Lord and the energies are so intimately related, they cannot be separated, but they are not one. This is the whole philosophy. So we are praying to the original energy, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because energy and the energetic, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, They are not separate, but it is pleasure. When They are separated, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, that is energetic, that is giving impetus. Just like the man and the woman, they come from the same source, but one body is energetic to the other. Man is energy to the woman. Woman is the energy to the man. Why the creation is not one kind of? Why there is fair sex? They're coming from the same womb of the mother. Why not one, boy only? Why girl? Why nature has provided like that? Let simply boys come. No. It is required. But the whole thing is perverted reflection. Here the man, woman, the energy... It is simply... But by this, one can understand the reality. Just like the shadow, the five fingers. One person who is not misled, he can understand that the original palm has five fingers, although he cannot see it. From the shadow. Similarly, from this energy, work of the energy in this material perverted reflection, one can understand that there is a reality. In the reality, in the abode of Kṛṣṇa, the same things are there, the same trees are there, the same things are there, but they are original, personal energy. And here, they are simply imitation or perverted reflection. Not imitation. The exact word is perverted reflection. The same example. Just like a tree on the bank of a river is reflected obverted, the root upwards and the branches downwards. So this world is like that, and that is described in the Fifteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. So one has to learn all these things. Everything is there. (end) Room Conversation -- October 27, 1968, Montreal, With First Devotees Going to London On Evening of Their Departure Prabhupāda: You can plaster together, up and down, and each and every one of them is separately sevenfold covered. The watery portion is beyond the sevenfold coverings. And each covering is ten times more expansive than the previous covering. The Personality of Godhead creates all such universes by His breathing period, lies above the cluster of the universes. Janārdana: So there's four... There's water, air, fire, ether, and pradhāna. This is given. [break] This should be corrected. Prabhupāda: Third Canto, it is five coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in the Second Canto seven coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seven kinds of subtle, and these five covering is gross. So subtle should be taken also. Janārdana: Yes. Is pradhāna subtle matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: So the subtle is moving the gross like the miller's wheel. The potter's wheel moves the pot. So the pradhāna... So the mind is moving the body. So the pradhāna... They simply put pradhāna... Prabhupāda: If it is mentioned, five, then it is five gross, and seven means subtle. So five or seven... Of course, seven is more explicit than the five. Janārdana: I never see anywhere where it is mentioned that there's an earth covering. It's always water as the first. Water is the first layer that's given. So there are four of the elements. Prabhupāda: Then above water there is air. *Janārdana: Air, fire, ether. Water, fire, air, ether, and then this pradhāna. So pradhāna is split up into the three: ahaṇkāra, mahat*-tattva and... What's...? Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is material ingredients, material cause. Janārdana: Material cause. Prabhupāda: And prakṛti... Janārdana: Is the efficient cause. Prabhupāda: Efficient cause. *Janārdana: That is in the Brahma*-saṁhitā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: I have the page. Prabhupāda: This is Third Canto? Janārdana: Third Canto. I have fragments of it. Satsvarupa Prabhu gave me some fragments that he had. So I have a couple of books like this. [break] Prabhupāda: I shall put here. [break] ...and you... The New York boys' opinion is to start a press in New York will be nice because there is so many other facilities for press work. If the press goes wrong, there are immediate, I mean to say, what is called, mechanics to repair it. In other places it is not possible. [break] All right. We shall think over it. Janārdana: About the press in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Well, Montreal center has a room for a press. However, there is the inconvenience that the building may be torn down in two years. Prabhupāda: What about that other building, that storefront down? Janārdana: A storefront downstairs? I don't know all the details about that. I haven't been looking into... Prabhupāda: You told me that there is a church for sale on the other side of the park? Janārdana: Yes, there is. Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that church? Janārdana: It's on Esplanade Street. Prabhupāda: On the corner? Janārdana: It's on a corner. It's on the corner of Esplanade and the other street. I don't remember. I can go on my bicycle and take a look there. Prabhupāda: That's a very big building? Janārdana: It is a three story house. It is about the size of one of these houses here, not the apartment houses but... Prabhupāda: That, some cross? Janārdana: Yes, there's a cross there. Prabhupāda: Pastor, it is written pastor? Janārdana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That's small building. Janārdana: That is small? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen it. Janārdana: You've seen it. You take walks so far over there? (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's not a very big building. Janārdana: Not good enough for you. (laughter) Well, there's a synagogue... Prabhupāda: So what did you do about this building? You have not written anything? Janārdana: Well, I haven't had a minute all week. Prabhupāda: You must today finish it. We must borrow type and send it. Janārdana: Okay, I'll finish it today. All this week I was so engaged around the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our engagement should be on that point, that these people will not easily understand, so we are not going to waste time for nothing. If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. Yes. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. You see? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that, photar kathara sei usane na(?): "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him." Especially in this country. If you become free speaker, then he's not taken into very seriously. So we must charge. In Boston, all the lectures Satsvarupa arranged, they paid hundred dollars, at least fifty dollars. Janārdana: If they pay, then they will have to get something out of it. They will force themselves to get something out of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone paid. The Massachusetts Technical College and Eastern University. Eastern University there is...? Janārdana: I think so. Prabhupāda: Then Harvard University and Boston University, and one church. They have paid, yes. And one church, Arlington Church, in that church... I think you were present there? Arlington Church? Govinda dasi: Unitarian? Prabhupāda: No. You have not been in Boston. Some girls from temple, they were present. Govinda dasi: Annapūrṇa? Prabhupāda: Annapūrṇa is always present wherever I go. (laughing) She is very nice, that she wants to follow me. This morning I was asking her that "After your marriage where you want to stay?" and she said, "Wherever you stay, I stay." "And I am traveling. Then you are married. You must have a place to settle." Anyway, in that church they charged us for meeting, but we collected very nicely. We collected more than hundred dollars. Yes. A very nice meeting. Janārdana: How many people were there? Prabhupāda: More than hundred, because we collected hundred dollars, and utmost, they have paid one dollar. Janārdana: The summer season is very slow in Montreal. The churches cut down their sermon program. The synagogues don't having sermons in the summer very often. So that's why we haven't had so many engagements. But in the month of September things begin to pick up faster. The coldest time of the year is the busiest time of the year here actually. The real busy season is January and February. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was speaking to Gaurasundara that Janārdana speaks, "The winter season is the busiest season," and you said, "It is dull season"? (chuckles) Janārdana: January and February are the busiest, and they are the coldest months too. Prabhupāda: Very busy? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: How you are feeling, Śāradīyā? Nice? Śāradīyā: I'm fine. Prabhupāda: You are going to Europe? No? You have got to attend your school? That's nice. So your program is starting tomorrow morning? Yamunā: Five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Five o'clock? Yamunā: That's when we have to get out. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So you are going by taxi? Guru dāsa: To the airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Yes, I think so. Devotee (2): You'd have to. Yamunā: Three taxis. Prabhupāda: Why three taxis? Mālatī: Two taxis. There are so many of us and so much baggage. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So for me, I shall be ready to start as soon as we hear from you. Yes. And tomorrow I shall expect mail. I don't think I am going to Vancouver because from Upendra's letter it is not very encouraging, and I don't think Mr. Renogay(?) will, on his personal account, call me and pay me. I don't think so. So what is your next program here? Janārdana: Then the next program here... Well, the busy season will begin. So I'll go to McGill and Sir George Williams Universities and some churches also, and I'll try to get speaking engagements. [break] Prabhupāda: ...building? Janārdana: Possibly. Maybe I'll find a place on the other side of the mountain for you because the man here insisted if we take this for September, we must take it for the whole year. Prabhupāda: [break] ...means October, November, December? Janārdana: Until next year in September. Prabhupāda: Ho, ho! (devotees laugh) That is not possible. Janārdana: That's what he's asking now. Prabhupāda: [break] Because in the winter season they don't get tenants? Janārdana: Well, a few will get easily tenants, but he wants to get a tenant for the whole winter. And September is a month when there is the best chance for getting a tenant because that's when all the student population comes back into town and this is a student district. And so in the month of September he would like to either get a tenant for the whole year or leave the place open. But maybe I can persuade him because it is not very easy to find a suitable apartment for only one month in Montreal. Prabhupāda: [break] ...pare dhana parke diye nija labha cora: "I borrowed something from you, and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Janārdana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) So... "I borrow from you and I lend him. He does not pay me and I become thief." Pare dhana parke diya nija labha cora. So that means this is warning: "One should not do like that. One should not take responsibility for a person where there is no connection." [break] Everywhere the principle of self*-interest is there. [break] That is there. But real self-interest is Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa we can do anything. Because He is supreme Self. Bījo 'ham sarva-bhūtānāṁ [Bg 7.10]. He is the Self of selves. [break] Where is Haṁsadūta? What he's doing there? Devotee (1): I think he's cooking. Prabhupāda: Cooking? (laughs) He's very expert cooking. (laughs) And Himavati also, assisting her husband? Devotee (1): I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta likes to cook. Yamunā: Oh, he loves it. Prabhupāda: So he wants to open a restaurant. Janārdana: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our, I mean to say, ISKCON restaurant. So you wanted to open that restaurant in our temple. Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? He is a very nice cooker. Janārdana: If he stays here to cook, that's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll stay. And I have told him already. And I have asked all the students in America chased by this draft board may come here. Yamunā: You're going to have to get a bigger building. Devotee (2): There won't be anybody left in America. Prabhupāda: No. In our connection, our students, let him come here. So these two boys, Jayapatāka and Vaikuṇṭha, in the same process receive. And therefore I was thinking that let us start press and restaurant and engage all these boys. So you can... [break] ...center. Why don't you try for that building? Janārdana: The building, the Strathcona, the government building. Prabhupāda: That is very nice, but other building in front of our temple, just not in exactly front. That big signboard. Janārdana: Oh, 16,000, 15,000 square feet, a dollar sixty a foot? Prabhupāda: Dollar sixty? *Janārdana: Yes. We are paying forty*-nine cents a foot, and they are asking there a dollar sixty a foot. They are asking three times more rent than we are paying. It's very expensive. Prabhupāda: How many..., there? 16,000? Janārdana: 15,000 square feet. It is a fortified place because they keep furs. They keep animal furs there, and animal furs are very expensive, and thieves very often break in. So I think that one of the reasons why it's so expensive is because it's fortified. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is that? Janārdana: It is a place... [break] ...of animals, and they are very expensive furs. Prabhupāda: Yes, very expensive. Janārdana: Very expensive. They want a dollar sixty a square foot per year, which is very expensive. We are paying 49 cents a square foot per year. Prabhupāda: Oh. I thought that because it is a downstairs floor, the restaurant can be started there. Janārdana: Oh, you mean there's another place? You mean that storefront downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Oh, that place... It's a green color and the windows are covered with soap? The windows are painted white? Prabhupāda: No. It's a big building, big store. And big signboard. [break] ...shall approach. (laughing) Somebody said, told, that is for sale? Janārdana: There is a store for sale. No. I think what they mean, the business is for sale. Prabhupāda: [break] ...prescription, doctors never says in plain terms. Just like at the end of the prescription, "add water." This is real purpose. They will write "aqua pureata(?)". Nobody will understand. They will understand. This is also some of the medicine. Aqua means water. Similarly, you can say, "prasādam distribution," and they will have to consult dictionary, what it is. And you can say, "Oh, it is not restaurant; it is prasādam." So at least... Janārdana: No. "Nobody is allowed to smoke in here, and they have to take off their shoes, so how can you say it's a restaurant?" Prabhupāda: Yes. These are technical. [break] ...description, what is called restaurant, that "Wherever foodstuff is prepared and sold, that is called restaurant," then it will come to that category. Whenever they make some law, they give definition of each word, what do you mean by restaurant. So today is another ceremony in the temple? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. What can we use instead? Prabhupāda: Barley? Why? It is...? Janārdana: The stores are all closed today, and the boys searched everywhere. They didn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Some grains. Any other grain. Janārdana: There is whole wheat. Prabhupāda: That will do. Janārdana: Whole wheat grains and there's rice. Prabhupāda: Rice... Better... Wheat is better. Janārdana: And what else is there? Prabhupāda: Sesame? Janārdana: Sesame? I don't know. Is there some sesame? Mālatī: Yes, I have some and Annapurna has some. Janārdana: And there's some buckwheat. Raw buckwheat. Prabhupāda: Buckwheat? What is that? Janārdana: Raw buckwheat. It's a grain. Śāradīyā: [break] What is the significance of using the barley and the sesame. Prabhupāda: Some eatables, that's all. Grains are eatables. Therefore I am substituting. They are eatable. There must be something eatable. Devotee (1): Does eatable... Does Kṛṣṇa eat out of the fire? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): He does? He eats all that? Prabhupāda: Everyone eats. Kṛṣṇa also... Kṛṣṇa eats through fire. Therefore yajña is offered. Kṛṣṇa eats by so many ways, but people want to see that "I give foodstuff; it must be finished." (chuckles) So for the rudimental seers and the less intelligent class, this is... Janārdana: Virāṭa rūpa conception. *Prabhupāda: Virāṭa rūpa, yes. That is also nice, right, that through fire He eats, yes, or through the mouth of the brāhmaṇas and devotees. Two things are there. Therefore, according to the Vedic religion, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees, are invited to take food in some ceremonies. In śraddhā ceremony they are especially invited with great honor. In pilgrimage somebody goes to Vrndavana, Prayag, Mathura. They invite the brāhmaṇas and Vaisnavas so that through them Kṛṣṇa is eating. They have come to satisfy Kṛṣṇa in a place of pilgrimage. These are the systems. So for the purpose of eating, so many brāhmaṇas have sprung up. Because brāhmaṇas are invited, so so many so*-called brāhmaṇas there. They'll be present when eating, and when there is chanting of Vedas they are not present there. [break] Baby has also tilaka. (chuckles) She is very happy. You see? I never seen such small child not crying. That means she is always happy. She's not crying means... Because baby cries when there is discomfort. And with her face shows that she is very happy. (laughs) Yamunā: [break] ...Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Just see. Thank you. [break] ...see? Girl Devotee: (inaudible) Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. All very healthy, I see, because very energetic. Śāradīyā: [break] Simply by Your Divine Grace, on Kṛṣṇa's appearance day in San Francisco my mother came to the temple and she wore a sari and a tilaka. Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) You are converting your mother to this cult. Yamunā: A very nice mother she has. Prabhupāda: Unless mother is good, how the children are good? *Yamunā: Tora(?). Tora is one of the biggest, and he helped more than anybody. He would come home, and she would read to them from the Bhāgavatam. But he would tell her, "Oh, if you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, you must serve māyā." And he would say, "That's māyā." He would tell mother that at seven years old, and he would explain to her. Swamiji, by the end of our classes, he was actually understanding the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, being able to listen to it and ask questions about it. Prabhupāda: He gave you questions? Mālatī: Even at the temple when there would be lectures, and then the lecturer says, "Are there any questions?" Tora would raise his hand, and he'd ask very intelligent questions. Prabhupāda: Then why not keep him with me, your mother and he? (devotees cheer) Yamunā: Oh, ho, ho! Haribol! Prabhupāda: I think your mother will not agree to that. Mālatī: Maybe his mother needs him. The mother needs Tora to keep her in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: [break] He's going to be a Nārada. Nārada, when he was five years old, he was thinking that "My mother is too much attached to me." And when his mother died, he thought free. "Oh, I am now free." Janārdana: At the age of five. Prabhupāda: Yes, at the age of five. And at once he went out. In his previous life. Then from five years till the end of life he cultivated Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and next life he became Nārada. Yamunā: Oh. [break] *Prabhupāda: I think that is described in the first part of our Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. That story is there, how he convert, how he became Nārada. [break] Mālatī: Twice a month he would visit his father. His father is a demon. So Tore carries in his pocket one nice picture of Swamiji and one nice... On the back is written, tava kara kamala vare. And he sits and says that under his breath because if his father heard, his father gets mad. *Prabhupāda: This is the age for injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If children are taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness from this age, the face of the world will be different. [break] ...but they are not Hindus. They have got also obstinacy like that. [break] It is very important. "I thought in that way. When my mother died, as the devotees of the Lord think, I also thought in that way. What is that? 'Oh, it is a grace of the Lord. My mother is now dead.' Because she is the, I mean to say, real cause of my nonfreedom. So she is now dead. Then I am free." It is very contradiction from the materialistic point of view. It is said that, bhaktanam śam abhīpsataḥ. "As the devotees think, so I also in that way thought." What is that? Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ. "I thought it a special grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ pratiṣṭhāṁ disam uttaram: "And I at once took leave of my so*-called home and went away." So that is the difference between the devotees of the Lord and materialistic persons. When their materialistic relationship, comforts, are taken away, they think "Oh, it is all grace." And the materialistic person, when their materialistic comforts are increased, they think, "It is grace." Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasmin jāgrati saṁ... That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like... There is a crude example. I think I have cited this example many times, that a foolish patient thinks that increase of fever is very nice. Fever, so what should be the ideal? Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, "Yes, it must increase." (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant. So doctor said, "The maidservant's fever is 105, so there is some anxiety. I give some medicine. And the, that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety." But the landlady became angry, that "This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!" (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degrees. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and... Therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by icebags and so many things because to come to the fever degree, 107 or 8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree-atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists' advancement. You see? So this is the... So, and devotees, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brāhmaṇas, Vaiṣṇava. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brāhmaṇa, not now, in the Vedic system, the uñca-vṛtti. It is called uñca-vṛtti. Uñca-vṛtti means they will go the paddy field, and after the cultivator takes all the paddies, some paddies are thrown away. They will collect those paddies only. Just like birds, they collect. They collect those paddies, and that they will eat, not even beg, ask anybody for any morsel of food. So completely... And in the Bhāgavata, Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that "Oh, this open field is your bed, this is your pillow, this is your pot, and the water in river is sufficient water, the tree is full of fruits, and in the cave, there is sufficient apartment. So why should you go, anyone, to ask for your shelter, for your food?" Kasmād bhajanti kavayor dhana-durmadandhān: "Why should you approach the materialistic, puffed-up, monied men to give you some help?" So Śukadeva Gosvāmī was strictly following this, strictly following, completely independent. That is not possible at the present day. (chuckles) If we imitate, that will be not good. We have to depose(?). Our Gosvāmīs, they have prescribed yukta-vairāgya: accept everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is yukta-vairāgya. It is also vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya and yukta-vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Māyāvādī sect, Śaṅkara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaiṣṇavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as Kṛṣṇa-prasādam, actually offering Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, living for Kṛṣṇa. This is the best use. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "The best use of a bad bargain." Everything in Kṛṣṇa relationship. That is yukta-vairāgya. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Vairagya means detachment. So when we are attached to Kṛṣṇa, automatically we are detached to māyā. Not artificially we want to be detached from māyā. Just like theoretically I know that I am not this body, but the bodily necessities are there because I am encaged in the body. Therefore the bodily necessities-eating, sleeping, mating, defending-should be done in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is all right. Then my consciousness is always in Kṛṣṇa, and I am detached to my bodily demands. And those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, their bodily demands is on the materialistic platform. They are going on, increasing the degree of fever and coming to the 107 degree. You are also going tomorrow? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] Your golden cup is very nice. Guest: Thank you. I'm glad you like it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...gold plate. What did he cost? *Guest: Twenty*-dollars. Prabhupāda: So I'll offer one day sweet rice to Kṛṣṇa in this pot. I have asked already Govinda dasi to make little sweet rice and offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then the pot will be used. Yes. [break] ...India still, amongst the Hindu family, whenever they use some new thing, household, they'll offer first of all to the Deity. Every family has got Deity. Every Hindu family, especially the high class, brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they must have Nārāyaṇa-śilā. You know Nārāyaṇa-śilā? Śālagrāma. Janārdana: Stone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is worshiped in every family. Arcye śilā*-dhīḥ. Śilā means stone. So arcye, the worshipable... I think this is correct. Janārdana: Yeah, it's correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Past five*-twenty. What is your time? *Guest: I have twenty*-five after. Prabhupāda: This is right? Yamunā: Yes. Well, no. It's five minutes slow. Janārdana: Think so? I don't know. My watch is ten or five minutes fast. My watch is always fast. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, this is still slow. This is correct time now. Guru dāsa: Your watch is still drop proof. Prabhupāda: Because it is correct to the church bell. Yes. Church cannot be... (laughter) Janārdana: So the ceremony will be at six, yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Six*-thirty. One hour after. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: So take care of your child very nicely. She is Kṛṣṇa conscious child. Yes. And Līlāvatī's child has grown very nice? Devotee woman: Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, it's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And what about that girl? Mālatī: Tulasī devī? Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, Karṇapura is beautiful! He's the best little boy you could ever imagine. Mālatī: He's already brahmacārī. Yamunā: He's just fantastic. Upendra really loves that kid. Upendra picks up Karṇapura and Upendra doesn't know about children. And he'll take Karṇapura and he'll make him kiss every picture in the temple, (laughter) especially at the feet of Lord Caitanya he'll go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." Karṇapura will go, "bang, bang." (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughing) Very nice. So Murāri(?), you have got to say anything? Murāri: I have got to say anything? No. I was just visiting. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (end) *Talk After Lecture (on Brahma*-saàhitä, verse 29) -- November 8, 1968, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Who has seen that house? Dayānanda? You saw? Dayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: Any of the brahmacārīs? Dayānanda: No. Maṇḍalī. Prabhupāda: Oh, Maṇḍalī? You have seen? Maṇḍalī: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen very nice house. Maṇḍalī: Mm. I thought it was nice. Prabhupāda: Very good. You have been in... We shall take that house. Very nice. You have seen inside also? Maṇḍalī: We looked at it through the windows. Prabhupāda: With Dayānanda? Maṇḍalī: Yes. Dayānanda: I have been in that place. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have been? It is nice place? Dayānanda: I think it has a fireplace in there. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. (laughter) So you take that house. It is very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many rooms does it have? Dayānanda: I think it has two bedrooms and a bathroom and a big living room and a dining room which you can make into a temple. And a kitchen too. There's a back yard with a tree in it. Prabhupāda: Very nice. (Devotees discuss for some seconds.) Prabhupāda: And on the broad road. A very important place. Very nice. You immediately take that house. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (kīrtana) (end) Talk During Prasäda After Kértana -- November 8, 1968, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: What is this? Oh. For taking? Viṣṇujana: Would you like a plate, Swamiji? *Prabhupāda: No, no. A sannyāsī should always take in his hand. That is the system. Not in a plate. That means if you take in a plate, you'll take much. (laughter) So in hand, he cannot take much. Kara*-pātrī. That is the instruction. But in this age such strict laws cannot be followed. The Bhāgavata says that when there is flat grass cushion, why should you ask for bedding? When you have got natural pillow, this hand, why you ask for a pillow? Then when there is river, so much water, why do you stock water? When there are fruits in the tree, why do you go and beg? When there is cave, why you are searching after apartment? (laughs) When the old garments are thrown in the street, then why you are searching after clothing? These are the instructions. Completely free. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadandhān [SB 2.2.5]. Why should you go and flatter these monied men? That is complete independence. But those days are now gone. (laughs) It is a different age. Los Angeles, I think it is a good place. Hm? What is your...? Your problem solved? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good news. We went to the Hollywood police station and the man told us that part of the duty of the police station is to... He said he should protect religious people like us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He mentioned other religious people, and he said if we can just keep the crowd moving, then we have every right to be there. So he has given us right to go to Hollywood. In downtown Los Angeles we don't have that right yet. We'll still go there, but in Hollywood it is all right. So that's good enough. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace. I was telling the same thing to Dayānanda, that he should present this case to the higher officer. That's all. We are preaching God consciousness. We should be given... That was the Vedic law. Saintly persons, they should be given all protection. If somebody insulted a saintly person, there was a special punishment for that. That's all right. So you take that house, that is Hollywood quarter? Hm. Give him more. No. I have got. You take. Oh, Nandarāṇī is outside? Why she is outside? Woman: It's the baby. Prabhupāda: Baby was not disturbing. I have received one letter from San Francisco. They are shortage of men. So Dinadayal is going back? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh no. We need more men here. (Prabhupāda laughs) We are so short. That is the problem. We have too few people here. Dīnadayālu is so essential. I was just going to ask you if we could have some more men. Jayarāma... Prabhupāda: Create men. Bring some men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Recruit. Prabhupāda: Here is a new boy, I see. Viṣṇujana: He's very intelligent. Prabhupāda: Hm. You have not taken prasādam? You have taken these fruits? This is the first time you come here? Boy: Yes. [break] Woman: If you live with people... If you live around people and they say offensive things, because they are ignorant or they are sinful as you say... Prabhupāda: Try to excuse them. Woman: Do I leave... Prabhupāda: As far as possible. Woman: Excuse them. I shouldn't move out of there? Prabhupāda: Yes. As far as possible tolerate. Woman: Tolerate. Prabhupāda: They are all crazy. Yes. They are crazy. Woman: Just one man, the owner. I asked him so many times if he would make room for, to have a meeting. The place is gigantic. You know cause you stayed there. Remember? At that motel. He said he didn't have any room. Prabhupāda: Oh. They have got very big hall? Woman: So I was just wondering maybe I should... You know, well, if that's how they're going to act, then I should move out of there. But I don't know. I don't know if that's the right attitude on my part. I don't know. They say they didn't have any room. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are... Govinda dāsī? (end) Talk Before Class -- November 29, 1968, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Who has taken your Deity? Vīrabhadra: Who has taken Him? I don't know. Somebody, they broke in the house, they took one typewriter and the sewing machine and I think it's... Prabhupāda: Typewriter? When? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night. Yesterday we just got a new sewing machine. A very expensive sewing machine and they stole it. Prabhupāda: Sewing machine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And a typewriter. It was taken from the house. Revatīnandana: While we were at Griffith Park with kīrtana party they broke into our house and took it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that quarter is not nice? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not a nice quarter. So we'll take more precautions now. Prabhupāda: Somebody must remain always. That is the only precaution. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: O.K. Yes, that's what I was thinking. Prabhupāda: I think in our apartment also somebody must remain. Here this is... In New York also I lost my typewriter, tape recorder. In 72nd St. at daytime, at nine o'clock. I went to take my meals in Dr. Miṣra's place at about nine, and when I came back I saw the door is broken. That superintendent, he was a Negro. He has done, I know that. This is very common case here. You purchased new machine and new...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The tape recorder... I mean the sewing machine was Śīlavatī's. She has sent it down here with Dinesh. Two or three hours before I had just gotten it. Prabhupāda: Your tape recorder also? Dineśa: No. I had brought the sewing machine from Śīlavatī in San Francisco. Yes. This sewing machine. Prabhupāda: And typewriter, whose? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The typewriter was mine. I'd just... Puruṣottama had just brought it from New York from my parents to me. So less than a week and they both are gone. Prabhupāda: New typewriter? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it was practically new. It was a very good typewriter. Prabhupāda: What is the maker? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Olivetti. It's the portable. Prabhupāda: Olivetti portable. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. A good one. But the sewing machine is very expensive. It may be 150 dollars. 163 dollars. Very good. Prabhupāda: So we have to take care. What can be done? Now you should be very careful, and somebody must remain there always. *Govinda: We live in a very good quarter though. They live by Watts and that's the... They live by Watts district, and Watts district is very notorious. There were seven*-day riots of shooting and Negro revolts there about two years ago, three years ago. We live in a very nice quarter, but where they're living is in a very bad place. Prabhupāda: So you will continue to live there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's in La Palma. It's not directly in the worst area. It's not in Watts county. It's in a different area, but still... Where you live is very good though. I don't think there would be any theft. More safe. Prabhupāda: Yes. It appears very respectable quarter. All right. Read. (end) Interview -- December 17, 1968, Los Angeles Reporter: I think the first question is kind of basic, is why is everything always taped at all the . . . Prabhupāda: Because we have got so many branches, they want to hear me, my singing, my speech, therefore they record it and send it to different branches. We have got thirteen, fourteen branches—one in New York, one in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, Vancouver, London, Hamburg. We have got so many branches. Reporter: What are the basic beliefs of the Kṛṣṇa religion? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. God, this word, does not explain the nomenclature of God. Now this Kṛṣṇa is Sanskrit word, and it conveys the full meaning of God. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive means He is full of all opulences. In this world we are attracted by one who is very rich, we are attracted by one who is very famous, we are attracted by one who is very highly educated, we are attracted by someone who is very beautiful. Similarly, these are features of attraction. And when all these attractions are reposed in one place without any rivalry, He is God. That is the conception of God. So Kṛṣṇa means all these six opulences in fullness together. That is the full definition of God. *Reporter: What effect to the followers does chanting give? I heard from one that it transports them to a utopian*-type situation. I wondered if you could elaborate on that a little more. Prabhupāda: Which situation? *Reporter: Utopian*-like, where there is no harm, no . . . all is good, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, this our process is chanting. It is very innocent. If you sit down and chant with us, you have no loss, no harm, but there is great gain. You see? By chanting, you gradually cleanse your heart and you can realize what is God. That is the greatest gain. Human life is meant for knowing God. The animals, they cannot know, although the bodily demands of the animal and the human being are the same. The animals, they sleep—man also sleeps. Animal, they eat—man also eats. The animal, they are also afraid of some enemy—man is also afraid of some enemy. The animals, they mate with the opposite sex, and men also do that. But what is the special significance of man? He can understand about God, but the animal cannot. Therefore if a man does not take to this understanding, he is no better than animal. A man who has no God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is no better than animal, because he has no other business than the four principles of bodily demands. So that is also prevalent in animal kingdom. Therefore this is a privilege for human being, to understand about God, and as such, in every human society there is some sort of religious principle. This religious principle means to understand God. Either you take it Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism, every religion is trying to understand God according to their capacity. So without this understanding, means Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a human life is as good as animal life. Reporter: Do you believe that other religions have some truth to them, because they all are . . . Prabhupāda: I have already told that religion means searching after God, every religion. The process may be different. The audience may be different. Just like in Christianity there is conception of God, "God created this world." So this is a fact. We also say. But we say in very lucid explanation from the *Vedas* . We don't stop, simply saying: "God created," but how created, how things developed, these descriptions are there in the Vedic literature. That is the difference. Otherwise there is no difference of opinion. The Christian accept God created this world; the Jewish religion, they also accept God created this world; the Muslims, they also accept God created this world—we also accept God created this world. So "God is the supreme, God is great" . . . that is accepted by everyone. But the only difference is that we give details so that modern mind, who are advanced in education and scientific knowledge, they can understand, whereas others, they cannot give in detail. Therefore they are deviating gradually, because the modern, advanced, educated person, they want to know how God created this world, and that description is lacking. But we can give that. That is the difference. Otherwise the primary principle, to understand God—God is great; we are small, tiny; we are subordinate; we are maintained by God—this idea is everywhere. Reporter: Yes, well, what is your explanation of the creation of the world? *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is a huge thing. That we have to see to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that God expanded Himself first of all in Mahā-Viṣṇu. He lied down on the Causal Ocean. And while He was in sleeping mood, from His breathing, innumerable universes came into existence. Then each and every universe, Mahā-Viṣṇu entered. Then again He lied down there, and from Him the first creature, Brahmā, generated. Then Brahmā created other planets. *First there was creation of sound. From the sound, the sky came into existence. From the sky, air came into existence. From air, fire came into existence. From fire, water came into existence, and from water, this land developed. In this way, there are very detailed description in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So we have to take it that way. Reporter: Were you born in this country, or were you born in . . . Prabhupāda: No. I was born in India, Calcutta. My birthplace is Calcutta. Reporter: When did you come to this country? Prabhupāda: I came here in September, 1965. Reporter: Did you come with the purpose of spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I am an ordained minister for preaching this missionary activities. So I came here in September, 1965. Then, for one year, I was traveling in many parts of your country. In the beginning I was in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, and then I went to Philadelphia. Then I came to New York. And in this way I was traveling; not very much. And in 1966, in July 1st, I started my class in New York at 26 Second Avenue. That is my first starting. Then the younger generation began to come to me, and they started the San Francisco branch, Montreal branch. In this way the institution is going. And we have sent our students to Europe also. They have already started one branch in London, one in Hamburg. And we have sent our students in Honolulu. They have started a branch there. So our program is to start several . . . as many branches as possible to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And it is very easy. We simply invite persons to come and chant with us. It doesn't matter what he is, what is his language, what is his religion. We don't take into account all these things. And this Hare Kṛṣṇa is so easy to utter that any man can utter. That we have experienced. Any part of the world we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they can very easily imitate and chant. Even child, they also. *So by chanting, he gradually becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. His heart becomes cleansed and he can understand what is science of Kṛṣṇa, what is science of God. Then he automatically offers himself for initiation. Then we initiate him and guide him in different ways. But our students are strictly forbidden to have illicit sex life or meat*-eating or intoxication or gambling. These four things are strictly forbidden for our students. And they take it seriously. We get our . . . in your country boys and girls, they live as friend. I don't allow that. If there is such friendship, I immediately ask them, if they become my student, I immediately ask them to be married. And this experiment has proved very successful. I got these young boys and girls married, and they are very happily living, and husband and wife, they are preaching. All my students in London—there are six boys and girls—they were married by me, and they are very doing nice . . . doing very nicely. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice in everywhere, especially in this country. That is my opinion. And people will be benefited, especially the younger section who were feeling frustration in every respect, and they are now happy. It is practical. Just ask any one of my students how they are happy. You have seen in our temple how happily they are living and dancing from their face. Face is the index of mind. You will understand from their face how happy they are feeling. They are not smoking. They are not taking marijuana or are taking . . . no. This nonsense we don't allow. Simple food and chanting. That makes them happy. Simple thing. Reporter: (aside) Just a minute. I'll change the speed on this. Should work a bit better. I notice that most of your followers, at least in this temple, are young, like in the college age or in the teen age. Is it because Kṛṣṇa doesn't attract the older generation—I mean, yourself excluded? (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa attracts everyone . . . just like magnetic stone attracts iron. But the iron is covered with too much muddy things e magnetic force does not work. This younger generation, they are not too much dirty; therefore they are very easily attracted. You see? It is like a magnetic force. The same example, that magnetic force attracts iron. That is natural. But if the iron is too much rusty and covered with muddy things, then it does not act. So older generation means they are convinced in some way. They cannot accept any new thing. You see? They are in their last stage of life. Whatever they have understood, they cannot forget. But younger generation, they have got capacity to take new things. Just like nobody goes . . . no old man goes to school, because they are unable to receive education. But younger generation, they go. There is a age to receive. So this age is recipient. Therefore naturally, it is nice thing, they are receiving. Reporter: You spoke of initiation. What is that initiation? Prabhupāda: Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasādam , hear philosophy. And if he understands, "Oh, this is very nice," then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction, that "If you want to be initiated . . ." *We get hundreds of letters by everyone who has attended our classes. Daily we are getting some married couples or boys and girls, but most of them are younger. My students are within thirties. The oldest student I have got at the present moment, he is twenty*-eight years. No, Kīrtanānanda is about thirty years old. That's all. So, of course, I do not get any older people. But that is nice, hopeful, because younger section, if they take it very seriously, then I have hopes that they will preach in future, even in my absence. And old people . . . if a man becomes too much accustomed to a certain limited habits, in old age it is very difficult to give it up unless one is extraordinarily intelligent. Reporter: What is the purpose of the robes and shaving . . . having your head shaved? Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not very difficult to understand. Just like you dress in a certain way, I dress in certain way. So we have got this dressing system in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and this is taken from Vedic literature. A brahmacārī should dress like that. And that is very economical. Our dress is saffron dress. It does not become dirty very quickly, and we . . . (break) This dress is not very important thing, but when one is initiated, he accepts the regulation which I give them. So it is not that if you do not come in that dress in our temple you will not understand our philosophy. That is not . . . we don't mean that. But it is convenient. But anyone who does not want to change this dress, that does not matter. We don't insist. These brahmacārīs , they voluntarily change. Otherwise, there are many students, just like we have got two, three students, they are working. They come just like ordinary American gentlemen. So there is no objection in that way. Dress is not very important thing. Reporter: Do you have a name that you call . . . are they called students? Like, would he be called a student or a . . .? Devotee: Brahmacārī . Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs . And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas . And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas . And those who are renounced—they have no connection with anything worldly—they are called sannyāsa . Just like I am sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone. Reporter: Could I ask for a spelling on those? *Prabhupāda: Sannyā . . . yes, brahmacārī : b*-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī . Then gṛhastha : g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha . H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha . G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha . Then vānaprastha : v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha . Then sannyāsī : s-(a)-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī . Four divisions. These four divisions. And there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. *Just like the brāhmaṇas , b*-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas , k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas . Similarly, there is the vaiśyas , v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class: those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras . Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas . And the worker class is called śūdra . So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society. Reporter: Have they encountered any problems in . . . like out on the Hollywood Boulevard? Police action, or telling them to move or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only that depends on the whims of the police. Sometimes they say: "You are blocking our roads." Sometimes, "Oh, you are doing nice." So that depends on their temperament. Reporter: How about from the crowds? Prabhupāda: Crowd, of course, whenever there is crowd, it is natural—police do not like it. So we don't create crowd. But generally, people, out of inquisitiveness they gather together and see how they are chanting. They are sympathetic. They contribute. They purchase our books and literature. The people, public is sympathetic. The police are also sympathetic. They don't object when we go at night, but during busy hours, they object. So one of our student was arrested by the police. So he was taken to the court, and I gave them $315 for . . . what is called? Bail. But he was not convicted. He was immediately liberated, and now our money was returned. So it is not a problem. Reporter: Were there any followers before you came to this country? *Prabhupāda: No. In this country, of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there was none. It is the first time. I have introduced. But in India it is very, very old—since the advent of Kṛṣṇa, and at least since last five thousand years. So Kṛṣṇa is very popular in India. In every home, Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, and there are many millions of temples of Kṛṣṇa in India and followers also. Followers means almost all Hindus are followers of Kṛṣṇa. They read this Bhagavad*-gītā . *So I have recently published Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . It is published by Macmillan Company, and this book is very nicely being received. It is being reviewed by several papers. I have got many others books. They are being gradually introduced. Perhaps you have seen in our counter. We have got books, magazines, calendar and other literatures. So it is a very scientific movement. It is not a sentiment, bogus hoax. It is . . . anyone who wants to understand this movement philosophically, scientifically, they will be very much satisfied in this. The idea is that any religious movement without philosophical basis, it is simply sentiment or fanaticism. And philosophy without idea of God is simply mental speculation. Therefore religious principles combined with philosophy, that is perfect. So the younger section become attracted to this movement because we are giving some religious principle based on philosophy. Reporter: About how many followers would you say there are in the United States? Prabhupāda: Initiated members, there are about one hundred, or little more, but sympathizers, admirers, there are many. Those who come, those who contribute, take sympathy, they help, and in that way there are many followers. But actually initiated members, there are about a little more than one hundred. Reporter: Yes, what is the significance of . . . right after the chanting, everyone bows, and that I don't understand, what they're doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is offering respect. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to ask people to surrender to God. They have rebelled against God. Somebody says: "There is no God." Somebody says that, "I am God." These nonsense things are to be eradicated from human society. So they should be trained to submit. So the submission is symbolized by bowing down, "Yes, You are great; I am humble." This should be taught. Otherwise, their, whimsically, their think somebody thinking that, "I am God." They do not know what is God. It is most foolish proposal if somebody claims that he is God. He is dog. We very much hate this proposal, when a man claims that he is God. It is most blasphemous. Reporter: Have you . . . did you . . . well, you've only been over here about four years. But have there been dropouts, out of the movement, out of the hundred that were initiated? Prabhupāda: They are doing nicely. They are making progress. They are understanding the philosophy. They are working for it. Now I am the only man who came from India, and still I am one. I have no . . . there are many Indians, but I have no Indian follower here. Of course, in India we have got. That's a different thing. But these, all these American boys, they are cooperating with me. That means they are taking this movement very seriously. We have got two great papers, magazines, already, Back to Godhead. One is published from New York, and the other is published from Montreal. (break) . . . in French language. Montreal, it is published in French language, and they are well received. Recently I have received one letter from my disciple Janardana. He is Janis Dambergs, M.A.; he is the editor of that paper. He is a very good scholar in French language. His wife is also good scholar, Muna. *She is also very good scholar in French language. So they are publishing, and the magazine is well received by the French*-speaking people there. And we have contemplation to publish the same magazine in German language also, from Germany. Reporter: I was talking to one the other day, and he said his name was Tamul *Prabhupāda: Tamāla, yes. Tamāla*-kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Tamāla? And he was from Manhattan. Now, I assume when you join, do you assume a name? Do you change your name? Prabhupāda: Yes, when one is initiated, I give him a name which means remembrance of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Is it necessary to know of the Indian language when you join? Because I noticed that when your . . . Prabhupāda: This is not Indian name. This is Sanskrit name. Reporter: It's what? *Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit is a language which is mother of all languages. Sanskrit, S*-a-n-s-k-r-i-t, Sanskrit language. So this is the original language of this . . . not only of this planet; in other planets also, this language is spoken. So the names are in Sanskrit. They do not belong to any community or any section. It is universal. We have no information. *Just like this word Kṛṣṇa. It is universally known: "all*-attractive." The exact English translation is "all-attractive." So there cannot be any proper nomenclature for God than this "all-attractive." Unless God is all-attractive, how He can be God? This is the perfect nomenclature. Similarly, anything Sanskritically named, that is all-perfect. Yes. Reporter: I think that's all the questions I had. I can't think of any more. Let me think. Erm . . . (break) (end) Interview -- December 17, 1968, Los Angeles Reporter: I think the first question is kind of basic, is why is everything always taped at all the . . . Prabhupāda: Because we have got so many branches, they want to hear me, my singing, my speech, therefore they record it and send it to different branches. We have got thirteen, fourteen branches—one in New York, one in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, Vancouver, London, Hamburg. We have got so many branches. Reporter: What are the basic beliefs of the Kṛṣṇa religion? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. God, this word, does not explain the nomenclature of God. Now this Kṛṣṇa is Sanskrit word, and it conveys the full meaning of God. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive means He is full of all opulences. In this world we are attracted by one who is very rich, we are attracted by one who is very famous, we are attracted by one who is very highly educated, we are attracted by someone who is very beautiful. Similarly, these are features of attraction. And when all these attractions are reposed in one place without any rivalry, He is God. That is the conception of God. So Kṛṣṇa means all these six opulences in fullness together. That is the full definition of God. *Reporter: What effect to the followers does chanting give? I heard from one that it transports them to a utopian*-type situation. I wondered if you could elaborate on that a little more. Prabhupāda: Which situation? *Reporter: Utopian*-like, where there is no harm, no . . . all is good, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, this our process is chanting. It is very innocent. If you sit down and chant with us, you have no loss, no harm, but there is great gain. You see? By chanting, you gradually cleanse your heart and you can realize what is God. That is the greatest gain. Human life is meant for knowing God. The animals, they cannot know, although the bodily demands of the animal and the human being are the same. The animals, they sleep—man also sleeps. Animal, they eat—man also eats. The animal, they are also afraid of some enemy—man is also afraid of some enemy. The animals, they mate with the opposite sex, and men also do that. But what is the special significance of man? He can understand about God, but the animal cannot. Therefore if a man does not take to this understanding, he is no better than animal. A man who has no God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is no better than animal, because he has no other business than the four principles of bodily demands. So that is also prevalent in animal kingdom. Therefore this is a privilege for human being, to understand about God, and as such, in every human society there is some sort of religious principle. This religious principle means to understand God. Either you take it Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism, every religion is trying to understand God according to their capacity. So without this understanding, means Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a human life is as good as animal life. Reporter: Do you believe that other religions have some truth to them, because they all are . . . Prabhupāda: I have already told that religion means searching after God, every religion. The process may be different. The audience may be different. Just like in Christianity there is conception of God, "God created this world." So this is a fact. We also say. But we say in very lucid explanation from the *Vedas* . We don't stop, simply saying: "God created," but how created, how things developed, these descriptions are there in the Vedic literature. That is the difference. Otherwise there is no difference of opinion. The Christian accept God created this world; the Jewish religion, they also accept God created this world; the Muslims, they also accept God created this world—we also accept God created this world. So "God is the supreme, God is great" . . . that is accepted by everyone. But the only difference is that we give details so that modern mind, who are advanced in education and scientific knowledge, they can understand, whereas others, they cannot give in detail. Therefore they are deviating gradually, because the modern, advanced, educated person, they want to know how God created this world, and that description is lacking. But we can give that. That is the difference. Otherwise the primary principle, to understand God—God is great; we are small, tiny; we are subordinate; we are maintained by God—this idea is everywhere. Reporter: Yes, well, what is your explanation of the creation of the world? *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is a huge thing. That we have to see to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that God expanded Himself first of all in Mahā-Viṣṇu. He lied down on the Causal Ocean. And while He was in sleeping mood, from His breathing, innumerable universes came into existence. Then each and every universe, Mahā-Viṣṇu entered. Then again He lied down there, and from Him the first creature, Brahmā, generated. Then Brahmā created other planets. *First there was creation of sound. From the sound, the sky came into existence. From the sky, air came into existence. From air, fire came into existence. From fire, water came into existence, and from water, this land developed. In this way, there are very detailed description in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So we have to take it that way. Reporter: Were you born in this country, or were you born in . . . Prabhupāda: No. I was born in India, Calcutta. My birthplace is Calcutta. Reporter: When did you come to this country? Prabhupāda: I came here in September, 1965. Reporter: Did you come with the purpose of spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I am an ordained minister for preaching this missionary activities. So I came here in September, 1965. Then, for one year, I was traveling in many parts of your country. In the beginning I was in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, and then I went to Philadelphia. Then I came to New York. And in this way I was traveling; not very much. And in 1966, in July 1st, I started my class in New York at 26 Second Avenue. That is my first starting. Then the younger generation began to come to me, and they started the San Francisco branch, Montreal branch. In this way the institution is going. And we have sent our students to Europe also. They have already started one branch in London, one in Hamburg. And we have sent our students in Honolulu. They have started a branch there. So our program is to start several . . . as many branches as possible to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And it is very easy. We simply invite persons to come and chant with us. It doesn't matter what he is, what is his language, what is his religion. We don't take into account all these things. And this Hare Kṛṣṇa is so easy to utter that any man can utter. That we have experienced. Any part of the world we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they can very easily imitate and chant. Even child, they also. *So by chanting, he gradually becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. His heart becomes cleansed and he can understand what is science of Kṛṣṇa, what is science of God. Then he automatically offers himself for initiation. Then we initiate him and guide him in different ways. But our students are strictly forbidden to have illicit sex life or meat*-eating or intoxication or gambling. These four things are strictly forbidden for our students. And they take it seriously. We get our . . . in your country boys and girls, they live as friend. I don't allow that. If there is such friendship, I immediately ask them, if they become my student, I immediately ask them to be married. And this experiment has proved very successful. I got these young boys and girls married, and they are very happily living, and husband and wife, they are preaching. All my students in London—there are six boys and girls—they were married by me, and they are very doing nice . . . doing very nicely. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice in everywhere, especially in this country. That is my opinion. And people will be benefited, especially the younger section who were feeling frustration in every respect, and they are now happy. It is practical. Just ask any one of my students how they are happy. You have seen in our temple how happily they are living and dancing from their face. Face is the index of mind. You will understand from their face how happy they are feeling. They are not smoking. They are not taking marijuana or are taking . . . no. This nonsense we don't allow. Simple food and chanting. That makes them happy. Simple thing. Reporter: (aside) Just a minute. I'll change the speed on this. Should work a bit better. I notice that most of your followers, at least in this temple, are young, like in the college age or in the teen age. Is it because Kṛṣṇa doesn't attract the older generation—I mean, yourself excluded? (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa attracts everyone . . . just like magnetic stone attracts iron. But the iron is covered with too much muddy things e magnetic force does not work. This younger generation, they are not too much dirty; therefore they are very easily attracted. You see? It is like a magnetic force. The same example, that magnetic force attracts iron. That is natural. But if the iron is too much rusty and covered with muddy things, then it does not act. So older generation means they are convinced in some way. They cannot accept any new thing. You see? They are in their last stage of life. Whatever they have understood, they cannot forget. But younger generation, they have got capacity to take new things. Just like nobody goes . . . no old man goes to school, because they are unable to receive education. But younger generation, they go. There is a age to receive. So this age is recipient. Therefore naturally, it is nice thing, they are receiving. Reporter: You spoke of initiation. What is that initiation? Prabhupāda: Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasādam , hear philosophy. And if he understands, "Oh, this is very nice," then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction, that "If you want to be initiated . . ." *We get hundreds of letters by everyone who has attended our classes. Daily we are getting some married couples or boys and girls, but most of them are younger. My students are within thirties. The oldest student I have got at the present moment, he is twenty*-eight years. No, Kīrtanānanda is about thirty years old. That's all. So, of course, I do not get any older people. But that is nice, hopeful, because younger section, if they take it very seriously, then I have hopes that they will preach in future, even in my absence. And old people . . . if a man becomes too much accustomed to a certain limited habits, in old age it is very difficult to give it up unless one is extraordinarily intelligent. Reporter: What is the purpose of the robes and shaving . . . having your head shaved? Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not very difficult to understand. Just like you dress in a certain way, I dress in certain way. So we have got this dressing system in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and this is taken from Vedic literature. A brahmacārī should dress like that. And that is very economical. Our dress is saffron dress. It does not become dirty very quickly, and we . . . (break) This dress is not very important thing, but when one is initiated, he accepts the regulation which I give them. So it is not that if you do not come in that dress in our temple you will not understand our philosophy. That is not . . . we don't mean that. But it is convenient. But anyone who does not want to change this dress, that does not matter. We don't insist. These brahmacārīs , they voluntarily change. Otherwise, there are many students, just like we have got two, three students, they are working. They come just like ordinary American gentlemen. So there is no objection in that way. Dress is not very important thing. Reporter: Do you have a name that you call . . . are they called students? Like, would he be called a student or a . . .? Devotee: Brahmacārī . Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs . And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas . And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas . And those who are renounced—they have no connection with anything worldly—they are called sannyāsa . Just like I am sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone. Reporter: Could I ask for a spelling on those? *Prabhupāda: Sannyā . . . yes, brahmacārī : b*-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī . Then gṛhastha : g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha . H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha . G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha . Then vānaprastha : v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha . Then sannyāsī : s-(a)-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī . Four divisions. These four divisions. And there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. *Just like the brāhmaṇas , b*-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas , k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas . Similarly, there is the vaiśyas , v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class: those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras . Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas . And the worker class is called śūdra . So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society. Reporter: Have they encountered any problems in . . . like out on the Hollywood Boulevard? Police action, or telling them to move or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only that depends on the whims of the police. Sometimes they say: "You are blocking our roads." Sometimes, "Oh, you are doing nice." So that depends on their temperament. Reporter: How about from the crowds? Prabhupāda: Crowd, of course, whenever there is crowd, it is natural—police do not like it. So we don't create crowd. But generally, people, out of inquisitiveness they gather together and see how they are chanting. They are sympathetic. They contribute. They purchase our books and literature. The people, public is sympathetic. The police are also sympathetic. They don't object when we go at night, but during busy hours, they object. So one of our student was arrested by the police. So he was taken to the court, and I gave them $315 for . . . what is called? Bail. But he was not convicted. He was immediately liberated, and now our money was returned. So it is not a problem. Reporter: Were there any followers before you came to this country? *Prabhupāda: No. In this country, of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there was none. It is the first time. I have introduced. But in India it is very, very old—since the advent of Kṛṣṇa, and at least since last five thousand years. So Kṛṣṇa is very popular in India. In every home, Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, and there are many millions of temples of Kṛṣṇa in India and followers also. Followers means almost all Hindus are followers of Kṛṣṇa. They read this Bhagavad*-gītā . *So I have recently published Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . It is published by Macmillan Company, and this book is very nicely being received. It is being reviewed by several papers. I have got many others books. They are being gradually introduced. Perhaps you have seen in our counter. We have got books, magazines, calendar and other literatures. So it is a very scientific movement. It is not a sentiment, bogus hoax. It is . . . anyone who wants to understand this movement philosophically, scientifically, they will be very much satisfied in this. The idea is that any religious movement without philosophical basis, it is simply sentiment or fanaticism. And philosophy without idea of God is simply mental speculation. Therefore religious principles combined with philosophy, that is perfect. So the younger section become attracted to this movement because we are giving some religious principle based on philosophy. Reporter: About how many followers would you say there are in the United States? Prabhupāda: Initiated members, there are about one hundred, or little more, but sympathizers, admirers, there are many. Those who come, those who contribute, take sympathy, they help, and in that way there are many followers. But actually initiated members, there are about a little more than one hundred. Reporter: Yes, what is the significance of . . . right after the chanting, everyone bows, and that I don't understand, what they're doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is offering respect. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to ask people to surrender to God. They have rebelled against God. Somebody says: "There is no God." Somebody says that, "I am God." These nonsense things are to be eradicated from human society. So they should be trained to submit. So the submission is symbolized by bowing down, "Yes, You are great; I am humble." This should be taught. Otherwise, their, whimsically, their think somebody thinking that, "I am God." They do not know what is God. It is most foolish proposal if somebody claims that he is God. He is dog. We very much hate this proposal, when a man claims that he is God. It is most blasphemous. Reporter: Have you . . . did you . . . well, you've only been over here about four years. But have there been dropouts, out of the movement, out of the hundred that were initiated? Prabhupāda: They are doing nicely. They are making progress. They are understanding the philosophy. They are working for it. Now I am the only man who came from India, and still I am one. I have no . . . there are many Indians, but I have no Indian follower here. Of course, in India we have got. That's a different thing. But these, all these American boys, they are cooperating with me. That means they are taking this movement very seriously. We have got two great papers, magazines, already, Back to Godhead. One is published from New York, and the other is published from Montreal. (break) . . . in French language. Montreal, it is published in French language, and they are well received. Recently I have received one letter from my disciple Janardana. He is Janis Dambergs, M.A.; he is the editor of that paper. He is a very good scholar in French language. His wife is also good scholar, Muna. *She is also very good scholar in French language. So they are publishing, and the magazine is well received by the French*-speaking people there. And we have contemplation to publish the same magazine in German language also, from Germany. Reporter: I was talking to one the other day, and he said his name was Tamul *Prabhupāda: Tamāla, yes. Tamāla*-kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Tamāla? And he was from Manhattan. Now, I assume when you join, do you assume a name? Do you change your name? Prabhupāda: Yes, when one is initiated, I give him a name which means remembrance of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Is it necessary to know of the Indian language when you join? Because I noticed that when your . . . Prabhupāda: This is not Indian name. This is Sanskrit name. Reporter: It's what? *Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit is a language which is mother of all languages. Sanskrit, S*-a-n-s-k-r-i-t, Sanskrit language. So this is the original language of this . . . not only of this planet; in other planets also, this language is spoken. So the names are in Sanskrit. They do not belong to any community or any section. It is universal. We have no information. *Just like this word Kṛṣṇa. It is universally known: "all*-attractive." The exact English translation is "all-attractive." So there cannot be any proper nomenclature for God than this "all-attractive." Unless God is all-attractive, how He can be God? This is the perfect nomenclature. Similarly, anything Sanskritically named, that is all-perfect. Yes. Reporter: I think that's all the questions I had. I can't think of any more. Let me think. Erm . . . (break) (end) Interview with LA Times Reporter About Moon Trip -- December 26, 1968, Los Angeles Reporter: ...about the movement, and it occurred to me...I was wondering if there were any religious people in this country that had any misgivings or thoughts about the trip around the moon. And whether there were any objections or opinions that would run contrary to the usual thought about traveling to the moon, and he said that in some of your recent lectures you had said that man would not be able to land on the moon because of, now these are his words, because of spiritual beings there or that there would be an impossibility or something along that line. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that or explain what you meant. Prabhupāda: You are particularly interested with that subject matter? Reporter: Yes. I told Dan that was what I was interested in. I have background information on the movement, for instance, and yourself. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So far the movement is concerned, it has nothing to do with the moon planetary journey, it has nothing to do. But in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, the authoritative Vedic scripture which we generally follow, in that scripture there is statement that for promoting oneself to the moon planet, one has to accustom himself to the different kind of worshiping process. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. Those who are worshiper of the demigods, they are promoted to different planets of the particular demigods. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. And those who are worshiper of the pitṛs, or forefathers, they go to that planet. Similarly, one who is engaged in worshiping the Supreme Lord, he also goes to the supreme planet. These informations are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. And so far moon planet is concerned, that is within this material world. Those who are pious actors, those who are engaged in pious activities according to Vedic rituals, they can go to the moon planet. That is stated in the... Reporter: Those who are engaged in what activities? Prabhupāda: Pious. There are two kinds of activities: vicious and pious. Reporter: Pious and... Prabhupāda: Vicious. Reporter: Vicious? Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who are engaged in vicious activities, they cannot go to that moon planet. And it is also stated that if somebody goes to the moon planet he gets duration of life very, very long period. Reporter: If someone goes to the moon planet... Prabhupāda: Yes. He has a long duration of life there in that moon planet. Reporter: I guess I didn't understand. Prabhupāda: Just like we are living here at most hundred years, but they can live there ten thousand years. Do you follow? Just like different forms of body have got different duration of life. A dog lives for six years or a cow lives for twenty years, a man lives for hundred years. Similarly, the residents of moon planet, they live for very, very long time, ten thousands of years. Reporter: The residents of the moon live for a long time? Thousands of years? Prabhupāda: Thousands of years. Reporter: Now are you talking about... *Prabhupāda: This information we get from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, this book. I have rendered into English. Reporter: Which book is this? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Reporter: Was this a book which you wrote or translated or... Prabhupāda: Translated and commented. Reporter: Translations and comments. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, I have translated this book also. This is being published by Macmillan company, one of the biggest publisher of your country. Yes. I have published this book... Reporter: Were you referring to this book when you meant, when you said residents of the moon, do you mean people that go there to live or that are... Prabhupāda: They are there already. In every planet there are living entities, residents. Reporter: And this is written in this book. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. There is a vivid description of different planets in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. There are innumerable planets within this universe and all of them are described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The sun planet, the moon planet, and other planets, they are all vividly described, what kind of residents there are, their mode of living, everything is there. Reporter: Now Dan not only said that you said that if people try to land on the moon they would not be able to. Can you explain what you meant by that? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very common sense. Suppose if somebody wants to land on your country, America. You do not allow. There are so many restrictions, visas, passport, and immigration. And how do you expect to land there, all of a sudden there? They are so intelligent and their duration of life so long. They are far advanced in knowledge. Everything they're advanced. So you cannot expect in that way to land there. This is common sense affair. Besides that, the scientists also agree that the temperature there is two hundred degrees below zero, so how you can expect to land there and live there? Reporter: In other words, you don't... How do you yourself feel? Do you feel that if the United States or the Soviet Union were to attempt a landing and their spacecraft went down, what do you yourself expect... Prabhupāda: No, so far our calculation goes, from the books, nobody can do so. That is impossible. Reporter: Well, does the book say that it would be impossible for anyone to even approach it? At what point would it be impossible... Prabhupāda: Impossible means the process by which you are trying to reach there. Reporter: To live there. Prabhupāda: No, to reach there. Reporter: Oh, to leave there. Prabhupāda: Leave there and reach there also. Reach. Reporter: Reach, I see. But would the flight that was just completed, that doesn't contradict with anything in this book? I mean they were within, I don't know, so many miles... Prabhupāda: But so far we have got information, no flight has been successful to land there till now. So I do not think how they are going to be successful in the future. This process, just like we are going from one place to another by motor car or by airplane, this process will not help us to go to the moon planet. The process is different as described in the Vedic literature. One has to qualify. Reporter: What would be, when you say impossible for one to land or to reach the moon's surface. Prabhupāda: Just like why you speak of moon? Suppose in the ocean, in the ocean you can land by some artificial means for some time, but it is not suitable for human being to live on the ocean. Apart from moon planet, you take the ocean, water, ocean. Hayagrīva: You can't live in the ocean. It's a different atmosphere. You cannot live on the moon because the climate is so different. You can't survive on the moon. Prabhupāda: Everything is different. You require different type of body to live there, to go there. Just like if you want to live within the water, this body will not be suitable. But the fish, it has got a type of body, they live very peacefully. Similarly, the residents of moon planet, they are meant for living there. You cannot go and live there, abruptly. That is not possible. Hayagrīva: Swamiji? Are there people living on the moon now or were they in other yugas living there? Are they in this yuga living there? Prabhupāda: No, they're still living there. Yes. As we are living here, they are living there. Yes. Reporter: And how would you describe these people that live there? Would they be invisible to us or visible? Prabhupāda: Almost invisible, yes. Hayagrīva: Spiritual body. Prabhupāda: Not spiritual. That is also material. Hayagrīva: Like ghost bodies? Subtle bodies? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: Excuse me. Reporter: Okay, thank you. Thank you. (door closes) Hayagrīva: Their bodies are subtle bodies. They're not like gross bodies. Prabhupāda: Just like... You try to understand me, that this matter, consisting of five elements, earth, air; earth, water, air...earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then, still subtler than ether is the mind, and then, subtler than the mind is intelligence, and subtler than intelligence is the spirit soul. So before we reach our spiritual platform, there are so many elementary material platforms. So in different planets one of the element is prominent. Just like we can experience in the ocean and sea the water is prominent. In the land earth is prominent. Similarly, in different, just like in the sun planet fire is prominent. So in each and every planet there are particular type of body, particular type of residents. You cannot expect that the same type of body and same type of residents are there. Reporter: Now, in a way, when you talk about this, you're getting into an area which to outsiders would be interpreted as a type of prophecy since... Prabhupāda: No, it is not prophecy. We have got this description in the Vedic literature. We are speaking on the strength of authority of *Vedas*. We are not prophesying. Reporter: Speaking on the strength of... Prabhupāda: Of the Vedic literature. *Hayagrīva: V*-e-d-i-c. Reporter: Oh, on Vedic literature. Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't talk anything which is not authorized by the Vedic literature. That is our process. Reporter: So let me see if I can summarize correctly your views on this, that it would be impossible for human beings to land on the moon planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: I wonder if you could explain how it would be impossible, to what extent. I mean whether... Prabhupāda: The same example as I have already given, that if you want to reside in ocean water, is it possible? If you want to construct a city like New York in the ocean, is it possible? Reporter: No, but what if they had resided in the ocean or on the ocean for a short period... Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Any, in the ocean or on the ocean, you cannot build up a city like Los Angeles or New York. That is impossible. So even in your presence, in different atmosphere, you cannot go and live. So similarly, the moon planet is completely different atmosphere. How you can live and go? Reporter: But, of course, they're not going there to build a city, but they're only going there to take some rock samples, do some experiments, and then leave. Prabhupāda: That may be possible. Just like you go in the ocean and live for some time and come back, but you cannot make any permanent settlement there. Yes. But that also I am doubtful whether you can land and take some, I mean to say, earth or water from there. That is also very difficult. So far our literature goes, our information goes, it is not possible. Reporter: Do you think that the, say astronauts that would land on the moon, do you think they would encounter any difficulty in going about and doing what they wanted to and then leaving? Prabhupāda: The first thing is that according to our knowledge from the Vedic literature they cannot go there. Reporter: But you admitted that it may be possible for them to go there for a short time and leave. Prabhupāda: That I am taking this example just like we go for a short time on the sea but we cannot make any permanent settlement there. Reporter: Yeah. But according to the Vedic literature they cannot go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. In this body we cannot go there. With this body we cannot go there. We shall have to change this body. Either you do it scientifically or spiritually or by any other method. With this body you cannot go there. You have to prepare a similar body which is suitable for living condition there. Reporter: Would a spacesuit substitute for that? Prabhupāda: Space? Reporter: In other words, the spacesuits that the astronauts wear... Prabhupāda: I don't think so. I don't think so. Spacesuits are... Reporter: You see I'm a little confused because I can't tell whether you feel that based on Vedic literature, that you said it may be possible for them to land and to return for a short visit, yet you say they cannot go with this body. Prabhupāda: Yes. I say also this, that to land there you must have the specific body suitable for that place. Reporter: To land there you must have... Prabhupāda: The specific body. Reporter: I didn't get that. Hayagrīva: A specific body. Prabhupāda: Now that specific body, if you are able to make by your modern science, then it may be possible. But you have to change your body to that specific condition. But the spacedress which is now being used, that is not useful. Reporter: The space uniform, you don't feel that is adequate? Prabhupāda: Space uniform, that is not adequate. Reporter: Now what about the beings that live on the moon planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Do you feel that they would interfere with any experiments or persons from earth landing there or trying to land there? Say, even if they had some specific body change or came up with a spacesuit that would withstand any changes in temperature... Prabhupāda: The first thing is that with this body you, neither you can land there nor interfere with their business. The first thing is. The scientists say that the temperature in moon planet is two hundred degree less than zero. Is it not? Reporter: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Howard? Hayagrīva: It's very cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. So even taking the scientific statement, how you can live there if it is two hundred degree below the zero degree? Reporter: Well I don't know unless they intend to land at a time that... Prabhupāda: No. There is suggestion of the scientist that there the temperature is two hundred degree below zero. I have read some paper. So if it is a fact then how you can live? You feel uncomfortable even in the Arctic region within this planet. How you can go and stay there even for a few minutes where two hundred degree... Reporter: Yes, that's an argument based on logic,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: ...and given the information about the degrees... But obviously, they're going ahead with plans to do so, and you have a transition period, for instance, between the part of the moon that is in sunlight and the part that is darkness. Prabhupāda: That I've already admitted, that by modern scientific method if you can change the condition of your present body then you can go. It may be possible, but that is very remote. Reporter: Well do you rule out talking about the beings living on the moon planet? Do you disregard talking about that because you feel it is too remote to chance that anyone would ever land there or do you have any feelings... Prabhupāda: Remote chance in the present way of going there. But this is not remote. If one wants to go there, there is a particular ritualistic process. If you adopt that, then you can go in your next life. That means after quitting this body you get a different body and you get your birth there. That is Vedic process. Reporter: Did you say through a particular ritualistic process you can go there in your next life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Okay. Now I still want to find out if you have any feelings about, say, if... Prabhupāda: Going there with this body? Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: No. I am not very much optimistic. Almost I say it is impossible. Reporter: But if the impossible happened and they were able to safely land on the moon's surface do you feel they would have any difficulty or encounter any trouble with the beings that you say live there? Prabhupāda: The trouble is already there. You are going with great difficulty and if you land there you may die immediately. Everything is finished. You are already encountering the difficulty. It is not very easy. The Russian scientists, the American scientists, they're trying for the last ten years. Still, they have not approached the moon planet. So difficulty is already there. Reporter: Yes, there are difficulties but still people feel... Prabhupāda: Just like the Russians advertised that "We are going there in 1965," they advertised to sell land. So these are utopian. You see? Somebody wanted to purchase land in the Russia. And they advertise also that they have plucked their flag, Sea of Moscow. What is this? Reporter: Well, my point is that I was trying to determine if there are any particular religious beliefs... Prabhupāda: It is not religious belief. It is not religious belief. It is fact. Reporter: Well, I mean not... Prabhupāda: Knowledge received from Vedic sources. You are talking on the source of knowledge from the modern scientific books, similarly, we are talking also on the source of knowledge received from *Vedas*. It is not a religious belief or faith, blind faith. We are not inventing anything. We are talking on the basis of authoritative knowledge contained in the *Vedas*. Reporter: Does this basis of knowledge include any information about beings and how they would react to people from another planet? Is there anything containing, you know, how they would react? How the moon people react to the earth people coming there? Prabhupāda: Of course, such description is not in the *Vedas*, but in some sources we can understand that one king wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom, but he was opposed. He was opposed by the demigods. So much information we have got. So those who are not fit to live there or enter there, maybe they will be opposed by the inhabitants there. And that is also natural to think. If somebody all of a sudden comes to your country, oh, there is immediately immigration department. They will see the bona fides, how you can enter? So why don't you take that also? If moon planet is inhabited by more intelligent class of living entities how do we expect that without opposition we will be allowed to enter? Reporter: So they are said to be a more intelligent entities. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Oh yes. They are living ten thousand years, they are not intelligent? Their standard of living, their mode of civilization, their mode of thinking, everything is higher than this planet. Reporter: Is this from this book? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: You say they may not be visible to us, though. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: To these material eyes they are not visible. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many things are not visible to our eyes. Reporter: And when you speak of the analogies of one, say, a foreigner coming to another country and wanting to do whatever he wants to do there and being rejected or opposed by the inhabitants of that country, do you say only by analogy that there might be opposition to earth people? Prabhupāda: No. There are informations. Somebody trying to enter in the heavenly planet was opposed because he was not qualified. Reporter: So then because of this example are you saying that if earth people were able to land on the moon that they would be...? Prabhupāda: First of all, my first conviction is they will never be able. But even they are able, I do not know how they will be easily received. Reporter: You do not know how? Prabhupāda: They will easily admitted. Reporter: You said you don't know how they would easily be received or admitted. Prabhupāda: Yes, by the residents there. Reporter: The word "easily" there I don't know how that would... You don't know how they would be received, whether they would be hostile or friendly. Prabhupāda: Naturally, when I oppose, then I must be hostile. Reporter: Yes. And you expect that they would oppose? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: The example of the king that wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom and was opposed, is this in this book also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And he was opposed by the demigods? Prabhupāda: Demigods, or the residents in the heavenly planet. Hayagrīva: Like I mentioned, there are three planets, three... There are the lower planetary systems, middle planetary systems, and higher planetary systems. And this earth is considered to be in the middle planetary system of the universe. It's called a middle planet. Reporter: Would that relate to anything that we're talking about? *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that there are three planetary system, upper, lower and middle. So ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, those who are in the modes of goodness, they are allowed to live in the upper planetary system. And those who are in the modes of passion, they are allowed to live in this middle planetary system, and those who are in the modes of ignorance, they are allowed to live in the lower planetary system. Reporter: Now where would the moon planet fit? Prabhupāda: Moon planet is the upper. That is the beginning of upper planetary system. Still upper, upper, upper, there are many layers. Reporter: Now can you explain to me, I have some background information about the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, but I don't know how to explain it in relation to the broad word Hinduism. Now how do you relate the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to Hinduism? How would you describe it, as a part of Hinduism? Prabhupāda: No. Hinduism practically we do not recognize because this word "Hinduism" is not mentioned in any Vedic literature. It is a foreign term. The Muhammadans, they called the inhabitants of India as "Hindus." From that word, it is has come to "Hinduism." Otherwise, we don't find that word in any Vedic literature. "Hinduism" is a foreign term, it is not a Vedic term. Reporter: Yes. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness, its Vedic literature, they have some of the same books or also holy books for what we call Hindu religions, aren't they? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just try to understand, the inhabitants of India were called by the Muhammadans from Persia and other places, "Hindus." "Hindus" means the resident on the other side of the River Indus. You have heard the name of River Indus. So they cannot pronounce it Indus, they say "Hindus." From "Hindus," it has become "Hindu." So actually the residents of India were called "Hindus." And generally, at least in, say, three thousand years ago, all the inhabitants of India were strictly followers of Vedic principles. After the advent of Lord Buddha, a different religious system developed. Otherwise, before Lord Buddha, there was all the... Not only in India, in other parts of the world. They were followers of Vedic principles. So in that sense, you can say if followers of Vedic principles are called Hindus, then before Lord Buddha, everyone was Hindu all over the world. Not that particular part of India. So far we have got historical reference from Mahābhārata, Indo*-European stock, they are also Hindus, the so-called Hindus, followers of Vedic principles. Yes. Gradually, they deviated. Just like recently there is division of Pakistan and India. Twenty years before, this Pakistan was part of India. Now, these Muhammadans, they did not come from outside. They changed their faith from Hindus to Muhammadans. Now they divided their property. Similarly, actually the whole planet was called Bhārata-varṣa. Gradually, people deviated from Vedic principles or imitated something else and they became different. Reporter: Considering that the people, say, the space program in the United States, was able to achieve its goals for this current flight they just finished and do what they wanted to do... Prabhupāda: No, can you inform me... Recently you told me that they're within sixty miles from the moon planet? Is that a fact? Reporter: I'm afraid I don't know. I don't know what the mileage was. Hayagrīva: They circled it. They circled the moon at sixty miles. Prabhupāda: So if they're, I mean to say, circumambulating within sixty miles, how they could not land? They could not go further sixty miles? Reporter: Well, they didn't want to land at this time. Prabhupāda: Why this? Reporter: That was to test their ability. Prabhupāda: Why didn't? Hayagrīva: They didn't have the mechanism ready. Prabhupāda: But for sixty miles, fifty miles, if they could stand sixty miles off from the moon planet, they were already on the atmosphere. Suppose if I am sixty miles away from a city, I am in that atmosphere. So if I could stay that atmosphere, how it is possible that, how it is wonderful that they could not go further sixty miles? I don't believe these things, these statements, that they were within sixty miles area. This is simply imagination. Reporter: Well, they didn't take along the spaceship that they need that they... Prabhupāda: Anyway, anyway, just like I am inhabitant of Vrndavana. Vrndavana, that is ninety miles off from New Delhi. The atmosphere is almost the same. So, if I could live at Vrndavana, I could live at New Delhi also. So if they stayed sixty miles off from moon planet how is it that they could not go further sixty miles? This is most ludicrous. At least, we cannot believe such things. Sixty miles is no much difference. It is almost in the same atmosphere. Reporter: If the space program, either the Russian or the American program, which have plans to try to land on the moon and return safely, if this is successful, do you think this accomplishment would hurt the Kṛṣṇa movement in the United States? It would contradict Vedic... Prabhupāda: Why? First thing is even they are successful, according to our principle, it is simply waste of time. Because we are not concerned even with the moon planet. We are trying to go to the planet of Kṛṣṇa from where nobody returns back to this wretched condition of life. So the wretched condition of life is as good in moon planet as it is in this earth planet. And do you know what is the wretched condition of life? Yes. The birth, death, old age and disease. This is the wretched condition of life. So you cannot avoid this wretched condition of life in the moon planet also. There is birth, death, old age and disease. But where we are trying to go by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. So even there are, people are successful to go to the moon planet, what connection we have got there? We are not at all concerned with any planet where there is birth, death and old age and disease. Even in the highest planet of this universe. Reporter: Well, what I'm getting at is that if for instance you say that first this conviction that they would not be able to land, and secondly that whatever earth people would go there would be opposed and would not be able to safely return, if you say this, based on Vedic literature, and other members of the Kṛṣṇa movement heard this, and then if the feat were accomplished, would this not seem a contradiction or something that had been said would be the case and then the opposite was proved true? Would this... Prabhupāda: What is that contradiction? There is nothing contradiction. We say that if you get a suitable body you can enter there. So if by your scientific process you can equip yourself with suitable body you can enter there. Where is the contradiction? Reporter: Well, you said that spacesuit was not a suitable... Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. That is not suitable. Reporter: That's the way they intend to go. Prabhupāda: That is, that is not, that we can safely say that with this suit you cannot go there. You have to make a different suit. Perhaps you do not know that. Reporter: Okay, then let's say that if with that suit they do go there and do return, would that be a contradiction? Prabhupāda: Why contradiction? We say that if you get a suitable suit you can go there. Where is the contradiction? Reporter: Well I thought you said the spacesuit was not suitable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spacesuit is not suitable. But if you can go with the spacesuit that may be contradiction, but that I am certain you cannot go. Reporter: I'm confused. Prabhupāda: I say... Just try to understand me, that if you can prepare a suitable body, you can go there. But this spacesuit is not the suitable body. Is that all right? Now if you actually go there by this spacesuit, that will be contradiction to my statement, but I am certain you cannot do that. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there will be no contradiction. Just clearly try to understand. Reporter: Okay. Then I'll try to repeat what you said and see if I am correct. Prabhupāda: I'll repeat. I'll repeat. First thing is that to enter into the moon planet you have to prepare yourself for a different body. If that body, you think that it is already made by the spacesuit, spacesuit is that different body, then it will be contradiction to my statement. But I say that with the spacesuit that you have manufactured, that is not fit to enter there. Now it is clear? The spacesuit is not fit for entering there. Is that clear? Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now if by chance with this spacesuit you enter there, that will be contradiction, that nobody can enter. But I say you can enter there with a suitable body. If you think that the spacesuit is that suitable body then you can enter there. But I think this spacesuit is not that suitable body. Reporter: If I think the spacesuit is suitable... Prabhupāda: For entering that moon planet... That is your statement, but I say that spacesuit is not suitable for entering into the... Reporter: If I think the spacesuit is suitable and, say, if I am an astronaut and I land there, I can land there? Prabhupāda: If it is suitable. First thing that if it is suitable you can land. But to my opinion it is not suitable. Therefore you cannot land. Reporter: Well... So then you are not saying then that it would be impossible for... Prabhupāda: That I never say. I say in the beginning that in order to enter moon planet you have to get a suitable type of body. That suitable type of body is not that spacesuit. Therefore the conclusion is that you cannot enter with this spacesuit. Is it clear? Reporter: That part is clear, but not if other questions are asked. Prabhupāda: Other questions you may ask. Other, that is future hope. That is not a fact. You are trusting in future that with this spacesuit you will be able to enter there. That you are believing. But similarly, I have got my belief from the authoritative scripture that you cannot. Reporter: Well, all I know is what they plan to do and what they've done so far. So in view of what they hope to do, that's... Prabhupāda: Well, that hoping... That hoping also, from practical point of view... Just like the other day the information was they were sixty miles off from the moon planet and still they could not enter. I do not know what kind of statement it is. If you go to some place just sixty miles off from that place and you are trying for so many years, you should be inquisitive. "Oh, let me go there sixty miles further. Let me see." Reporter: Well it's like you walk near a theater and you don't have a ticket. You might be able to walk around the theater... Prabhupāda: Then you come to my conclusion that your ticket is insufficient. You cannot enter there. Then you support my statement. Then you support me, that you cannot enter there. Reporter: Then you support me. Prabhupāda: Why? I don't support you. I say that you cannot enter. You are supporting me. You say that I have no ticket, therefore I could not enter. Reporter: And these astronauts did not have the ticket... Prabhupāda: Therefore my statement is that you cannot enter in this way, therefore you support me. What do you think? Huh? Hayagrīva: They haven't been able to enter yet. Prabhupāda: Therefore they haven't got the ticket. Even going near sixty miles, still they could not enter. So they are supporting my statement. Whether you admit or not, this? If they could not enter even being off sixty miles, then my statement is strongly supported, that you cannot enter. You go, you went there sixty miles up to, just off sixty miles; still you could not. Reporter: Well, I think I'm still not clear on whether... Prabhupāda: Why you are not clear? Just making clear. Reporter: It is your opinion that... Perhaps you can help me, that you cannot go to the planet unless you... Prabhupāda: You take some, take some... Take this. Reporter: Oh, thanks. ...go to a, have a suitable body, and his belief that the spacesuit is not a suitable body or a substitute or whatever. It is not the same thing, and yet if this is accomplished it seems to be that he's also saying that there's no contradiction to his statement. Prabhupāda: Because I say if you get a suitable body. So if you think that this is suitable body then you can enter. There is no contradiction. But I think it is not suitable body. But in all cases if you get suitable body you can enter there. Hayagrīva: It's just the means. He said it's not impossible to go there, but the means that they're using now are not very good means to go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: He has some doubts about the means they're using to go there. He doesn't think that the... Reporter: I think what... I think we have to carry it further enough so that we can tell whether, for one thing whether I have a story or not. If it's felt if you have doubts that it can be done, that's one thing. But if you have great confidence that it can never be done except by changing one's body... Prabhupāda: No, I don't say that. I say that in order to enter into the... Just try to understand me clearly. In order to enter the moon planet you have got to prepare yourself for a suitable body. Is that clear? If you, by some way or other, you make that suitable body you can enter. But the present body which you have manufactured, the spacesuit, is not suitable. Reporter: Okay, then when I try to carry it further, if they use the present body and do, are successful... Prabhupāda: That they could not do till now. That is future contemplation. Because even going up to sixty miles off they could not. Therefore this is not suitable. Now you say also, just like they didn't have the ticket. The further arrangement is still waiting. That means this is not suitable. This is... We just try to convince you. Reporter: Do you think that any improvements in the spacesuit... Prabhupāda: That is future hope. Not the present suit. I say the present suit is not suitable. Reporter: What about a future suit? Prabhupāda: Future, if you improve, that my statement is that if you can make your body suitable you can enter. So far the present suit is concerned, it is not good. Reporter: Now I think that if the trip is made and it is successful... Prabhupāda: If, if... Reporter: ...that there would be no contradiction there and in the case of say no interference from any moon beings, that I can foresee that there would be no contradiction there if it is achieved. Prabhupāda: No. That means simply by your suit, if you... Just like if I got a nice suit and enter your port, New York or any port, but if the immigration department does not allow me, what can I do? Is that suit sufficient? You cannot enforce there. There are intelligent persons there. Suppose if I come, a very nice costly dress, in your port and if your immigration department does not allow, what can you do? There are intelligent persons there. How do we expect that simply by you have got suit, therefore you'll be able to, allowed to enter there? That is not sufficient qualification. Reporter: I'm just trying to pin you down to a very exact statement if I can as to whether or not if they found the suitable spacesuit and did land, whether they would be interfered with. Prabhupāda: Interfered... Interfered... Now you try to understand. You come from Europe or from India in a very nice gentlemanly suit. Does it mean that immigration department will allow you to enter the country? That means even if you have got suitable suit they may be opposed if you haven't got, I mean to say, proper qualities and other bona fides. Because to live in the moon planet there are different qualities and bona fides. So not only you have got to make a proper suitable dress but you have to qualify yourself for getting visa of entrance into moon planet. Reporter: What I'm saying is that if astronauts were able to land and return to the earth successfully... Prabhupāda: What is that successful? Reporter: I would predict that you would not feel that there was... Would you then interpret it that they were able to get the visa or to... Prabhupāda: No, if you go and land there and come back, that may be a pleasant thing for you, but we don't think it is a very nice thing. If I go in New York border and see and come back and I am not allowed to enter, why should I take so much trouble? It is useless trouble. Hayagrīva: He says if you can't go there and live there, what's the point in going there? Prabhupāda: Just the Russians advertised that "We're going to distribute land." That is a feasible understanding. But if you simply go and touch and come back, is that success? Why should you take so much trouble simply for touching the moon planet? Reporter: Well, I mean, anyone can make that... There are many people who feel just that way although they may have no acquaintance with Vedic literature either and might feel the same way. Why go? Prabhupāda: No, it is a common sense affair that if somebody takes the trouble of doing so many things for the last ten or twenty years and go there and touch the moon planet, come back, it is successful. So it may be complacence for him, but I don't think it is success. Why should I take so much trouble to touch the moon planet, come back? (chuckling) I have no useless time for that thing. Reporter: Well, I think that what you're saying, that it is also not strictly impossible for someone to go there and be able to come back, that many conditions would have to change for them to do that, but you wouldn't rule out as impossible. Is that right? Prabhupāda: No. Actually, if anyone goes there, he'll not like to come back. Reporter: If anyone goes there... Prabhupāda: He'll not like to come back. Otherwise, he will give false information, that "I went there and touched it and came back." Just like this is the information that they were sixty miles off. Reporter: Why wouldn't he like to come back? Prabhupāda: Why you are trying to go there? First of all, let me know. Reporter: For science, for getting some samples of the moon's surface for one thing. Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say simply by knowing the moon planet your scientific research is complete? There are so many millions of other planets of different nature. Is it possible to study all these? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Why you are taking so much trouble to study the moon planet? What is your idea? Reporter: I think it's to do what I said and also the fact that it's there, and it's reachable and why not go there? You know. Why climb a mountain? Prabhupāda: You can go there, but if you take the trouble of going there, why not live there? Because the place is more comfortable than this place. Reporter: Why leave there because the place is more comfortable than this place? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The duration of life is more, the standard of living is fine, everything is, knowledge advanced. Hayagrīva: He's saying, if you're going to take the trouble to go to the planet, why not go to the planet that you can live in with your present body, and why go someplace where you have to make so many accommodations with spacesuits because the atmosphere is not conducive to our... Reporter: But we're not going there with a mind that they themselves won't live there. Hayagrīva: Then he says it's useless to go there. Reporter: But obviously, they're going to go there anyway, and, so that's why I'm trying to think to see whether there are any... Prabhupāda: Now, do you think that after so much trouble, so much labor, if you go there and simply come back and be complacent that, "Oh, I went there," is that very great achievement? If you can live there, you can utilize that place, then it is all right. Just like so many Europeans, they came to America and not simply to see and go back. Why they settled here? That is successful. Columbus invented this island and people came and they utilized it. Otherwise, if simply coming and going, why take so much trouble? Reporter: Well, that's a point. Prabhupāda: But our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has nothing to do with this moon planet going. Reporter: No, I realize that. Only in the sense that I could see some... From the way Dan Donnelley... Prabhupāda: But we have got some information in the literatures dealing with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: For instance, the jehovah's Witnesses have all but predicted that Armageddon or the end of the world will come in 1975, and obviously, if nothing happens in 1975 or shortly thereafter, their sect will suffer in some relation because they have said this and if it doesn't happen... Prabhupāda: But they said so many things. Reporter: Right. Prabhupāda: But does...? As the Russian said that in 1965 we are going to... Reporter: So that when Dan Donnelley told me that... Prabhupāda: So we never believed in such statement. We never believed. Reporter: Right. What I mean is that when Dan Donnelley told me that in some of your lectures you had said that it would be impossible for man to land on the moon and that they would be opposed by beings on the moon, those sounded like very definite statements that if those things did not happen, then there would be a similar potential for a crisis within the Kṛṣṇa movement of people hearing one thing said and it doesn't happen in the future. Then if those things are said that definitely, then there's always a danger that... Prabhupāda: No. Danger... When the scientists said that 1965 they would go. Did not happen. What danger has happened? Reporter: The danger to the faith of those who felt, say, in jehovah's Witnesses, those who believed that the jehovah's Witness knew and nothing happens. They say, "Well..." Prabhupāda: But they're still believing. First of all, they say that 1965 they're going to the moon planet. That has not happened. Now you say 1975. So they are still believing. So a class of men will always be cheated like that. A class of men. So there will be no danger of cheating such persons. Hayagrīva: I don't think Swami Bhaktivedanta's students would be swayed one way or the other because their faith is in Kṛṣṇa and in the spiritual master and it wouldn't be swayed by man going to the moon or not going to the moon. These are very incidental. *Reporter: No, but ...only if say a spiritual master of a faith made very definite statements about what man could or could not achieve, if a spiritual master were to say man cannot achieve this*-period. And then man went ahead and achieved it, there would be a crisis. Prabhupāda: The spiritual master does not say such nonsense things. Man can achieve in a suitable body. Why don't you say that? But that suitable body is not... Reporter: Yeah, well that's... When I talk to you, I find that the way you say it, if after the events are achieved, there could be explanations for it and there would be no crisis in faith. Hayagrīva: He never came out and said that it's absolutely impossible. Reporter: Right. Okay. Well thank you very much. I appreciate your tolerance of all my questions and everything. Prabhupāda: You take this orange. Hayagrīva: Do you want to take this, read these booklets? This one's just a running history of the Society and this is the magazine. So if you'd like, you can take it. Reporter: Okay. Fine. Prabhupāda: Our Kṛṣṇa... You should kindly note it that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has nothing to do with this moon planet. But we are not aiming to go to the moon planet. Reporter: I realize that. Yes. Your name was Howard...? Hayagrīva: Wheeler. Reporter: Wheeler? Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end) Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles Journalist: ...Cosmic Star and we just changed the name for January, the first issue. The first issue just, well, it's out, coming off the printer today. Prabhupāda: It is published every month? Journalist: Monthly, that's correct. And we cover eastern religions. We did a feature article this month on Bishop James Pike, UFOs, astrology. You know Dr. Bode, Frambose Bode from the theol... He's with Manley Hall. Are you familiar with Manley Hall? You don't know Frambose Bode? Prabhupāda: No. Journalist: He's from India. Parsee. Prabhupāda: Parsee, yes. Journalist: He does an article for us next month. But I spoke to Dan and I told him that one of the things I would like to ask you, and I think that an awful lot of our readers, and an awful lot of people in the United States are terribly confused with the many people who claim to be avatāras and who come from India to this country, one after the other, after the other, and they say... Prabhupāda: I can declare, they are all nonsense. Journalist: That's what... I wanted to... If you could elaborate on that a little more. Prabhupāda: And I can say furthermore, they're all rascals. Journalist: The Maharishi for example... Prabhupāda: He was rascal number one. I say publicly. Journalist: Could you explain that, give me a little background on that and why, because our readers are... Prabhupāda: I do not know, but from his behavior I can understand he's a rascal number one. I do not like to know about him, but what he did... But the wonderful thing is that people in western countries, they're supposed to be so advanced. How they are befooled by these rascals? Journalist: Well, I think that people believe what they want to believe. They're looking for something, and he comes along... Prabhupāda: Yes. But they want something very cheap. That is their fault. Journalist: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Now for our disciples, we don't give anything cheap. Our first condition is character, moral character. You see? So unless one is accepting moral character, we don't initiate, don't allow him in this institution. And this Maharishi was, "Oh, you do whatever you like. You simply pay me thirty*-five dollars and I'll give you some mantra." You see. So people wanted to be cheated, and so many cheaters come. They do not wish to undergo some disciplinary action, you see? Anything. They have got money. They think that "I shall pay," and immediately he'll get the money. Journalist: Instant heaven. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their position. Just like people are trying to go to the moon planet. I have given my opinion. You have seen in the Los Angeles Times? This chance is very remote. Journalist: Oh? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Suppose in your country, you have got some quota for immigration. Within this planet, if somebody comes, without your immigration department's order, nobody can enter. How do you expect in that planet where the people are more advanced, they are called demigods, they are living for ten thousand years, how you expect that you go and you are immediately enter into the moon planet? And they are selling tickets, reservation. You see? Everything, they make a fun of it, you see? Journalist: Let me understand this if I may. Are you saying that there are people on the moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: There are. And they are demigods? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: How do you know this? Prabhupāda: From our scripture, from Vedic literature. Journalist: From what literature? Prabhupāda: Vedic literature. Journalist: How do you spell that? *Prabhupāda: V*-e-d-i-c. Journalist: Oh, Vedic. I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: You'll forgive me if I... Prabhupāda: That's all right, that doesn't... Journalist: I don't mean to offend you. Prabhupāda: Sometimes I do not follow your accent. That is difference of country. That doesn't matter. Yes. Journalist: And from that literature, Vedic literature, it is stated in that, that there are people on the moon. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Journalist: But they're demigods. Prabhupāda: The demigods means they are highly advanced than these human beings. They are also living entities like us, but their duration of life, their standard of life, their civilization, spiritual knowledge, so advanced that they are called demigods. Almost God. They are so advanced. Demigods means almost God. They have got all godly qualities, and they are controller of the atmospheric affairs. Some of them are controlling rainy season, some of them controlling heat. As you have got controller here, some departmental director of this department, director of that department, similarly why don't you think that this cosmic manifestation, there is a great brain behind it and there are different directors and there is management? People do not accept it. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Such nice things, such wonderful things are going on automatically, without any control? You see? Journalist: Well, I know that's a question that, of course, one asks oneself all the time, I guess. It's part of man's quest to find himself and... Prabhupāda: But they should have common sense that you are trying to float one sputnik, so many scientific brains are working. And millions of wonderful sputniks which are called planets, they are floating in the air, there is no brain behind it. What is this? Is that very good reasoning? Journalist: I don't know. I must ponder that. Prabhupāda: You should know it. How it can be. There must be a very big brain behind this. They are working. Journalist: Now do you say that the moon is, so to speak...? What should I say? Headquarters, where these demigods live? Prabhupāda: No, there are many planets on the same level. There are many planets. Moon is one of them. Journalist: Have any of these demigod creatures visited the earth or... Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to because at that time people were worth to see them. You see? Journalist: When you say formerly, you mean thousands of years ago or... Prabhupāda: No. At least five thousand years ago. Journalist: At least, five thousand years ago the last time that any, that we would... Are they in human form? Prabhupāda: Yes. So far we get information, sometimes great sacrifices were performed, and demigods from other planets, they were invited, and they used to come. Journalist: Where...? Where...? And this is... Your authority for this statement is based in the Vedic literature? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: I see. I see. Prabhupāda: It is not manufactured by me. Journalist: Oh, I know! No! I'm not implying that. But I just want to know where the... *Prabhupāda: My authority is Vedic literature, yes. You'll find Bhagavad*-gītā... You have seen our book Bhagavad-gītā? Journalist: Yes. We have it at the office. I've seen it. *Prabhupāda: There are descriptions. There are descriptions of these things. There is description of another nature which is called spiritual nature. This is material nature. The sky, as far as you can see, this is one universe. Similarly, there are millions of universes. And all these together, that is material sky. And beyond that, there is spiritual sky, which is far, far greater than this. And there are spiritual planets. So this information we have got from Bhagavad*-gītā, what to speak of other Vedic literatures. Bhagavad-gītā, it is daily read by practically all over the world, but they do not understand it. Simply they become student of Bhagavad-gītā, or simply just to think falsely that "I am God." That's all. But they don't take any particular information. There is a verse in the Eighth Chapter, paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. There is another nature beyond this material nature which is eternal. This nature is coming into existence, again dissolution. But that nature is eternal. These things are there. Similarly, there, planets are also eternal. There, living entities, they are also eternal. That is called sanātana. Sanātana means eternal, without any end, without any beginning. But this nature, as we have, this body has got a beginning and it has end, similarly anything, this cosmic nature has a beginning and it has an end. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is how to transfer our self to that nature, eternal nature. Journalist: That's man's quest. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the quest. Everyone is trying to be happy because that is every living entity's prerogative. He is by nature to become happy but he does not know where to become happy. He's trying to become happy where four things are, miserable conditions are there, namely birth, death, disease, and old age. So many scientists, they are trying to become happy, to make people happy, but which scientist has tried to stop death, to stop old age, to stop disease? Has any scientist tried? Journalist: I don't know. *Prabhupāda: Then what is this? Why do they not take consideration that "We are making so much improvement, what improvement we have done about these four things?" They have no. And still they're very much proud, advanced in education, science. But the four primary miserable conditions, they remain as they are. You see? There may be advancement in medical science, but there is no medicine which can claim "No more disease, come on." Is there any medicine? So what is that advancement? Rather, disease are increasing in different forms. They have invented nuclear weapon. What is that? To kill. But have you invented something so that no more men will die? That is credit. Man is dying every moment, so you have invented something to accelerate that death. That's all. Is that very, very good credit? So there is no solution of death. They are trying to stop the, I mean to say, overpopulation. But where is the solution? Every minute, there are three persons increasing. That is the statistics. So there is no solution for birth, there is no solution for death, there is no solution for disease and there is no solution for old age. There was a great scientist, Professor Einstein, he also died in old age. Why did he not stop to check old age? Everyone is trying to remain youthful. Where is that process? So they do not care how to solve this because this is beyond their means. They are giving something bluff, that's all. They do not care what is the real problem and how to solve it. They do not care for it. But here is a movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is the real solution of all problems, if people take it seriously. Yes. And the whole thing is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Let them try to understand it. At least, make an experiment. Why they are so much callous and going in their own way? *Journalist: Let me ask you... I have my opinion, but I want to ask you. Why do you feel that the younger people today are turning more and more toward the eastern*-oriented religions? Prabhupāda: Because you have failed to give them satisfaction. Journalist: You what? *Prabhupāda: You have failed to give them satisfaction. Your this materialistic way of life will no more satisfy them. There is a stage, in the beginning, when one is poverty*-stricken, he may think that "Money and woman and good apartment, good car, can give me satisfaction." They are after this. But after enjoyment, they see "Oh, there is no satisfaction." Because matter cannot satisfy you. So your stage is, in America especially, you have got enough for enjoyment. You have got enough food, you have got enough woman, you have got enough wine, you have got enough house-everything enough. This shows that material advancement cannot give one satisfaction. The confusion and dissatisfaction is more in your country than in India which is said to be poverty-stricken. You see? But you'll find in India still, although they are poverty-stricken, because they are continuing that old culture, they are not disturbed. Yes. They are dying inch by inch, but still they are satisfied. "All right." You see? Why? Because they have got little tinge of spiritual platform. So it is necessary now that people should take spiritual life. That will make them happy. There is no hope. All these people, they're in darkness. They do not know where they are going. They have no aim. But when you are spiritually situated, you know what you are doing, where you are going, what is your future. Everything is clear. You see? *Journalist: So I just follow up on this very briefly. In other words, you feel that the western*-oriented church, whether it be a synagogue or a church, has failed to present... Would you say that it's message is not relevant or that they have failed to present their message properly? *Prabhupāda: No. The thing is these western churches, just like Christianity, these gospels were spoken long, long ago to the primitive men, you see? Jerusalem. These people were living in desert, and they were not so much advanced. So at that time... Of course, in Bible or in the Old Testament, the idea of God is there, that is all nice. But they... Just like the statement, "God created this world." That is a fact. Now those people who are not advanced in those... Now, at the present moment, people are advanced scientifically. They want to know how the creation has taken place. You see? That explanation is not there, neither the church can give them. You see. Therefore they are not satisfied. Simply officially going to the church and offering prayer, that does not appeal to them. Besides that, practically, they do not follow religious principles. Just like in the Old Testament, there is, I mean to say, Ten Commandments, and there is Commandment that "Thou shall not kill." But killing affair is very prominent in the Christian world. They are maintaining slaughterhouse very regularly, and they have manufactured a theory that animals have no soul, they do not feel*-because they have to kill. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." Why animal cannot feel? Why you are committing these sinful activities? So the priestly class, they will not also say, they will not discuss, everyone is silent. That means deliberately, I mean to say, disobeying Ten Commandments. So where is religious principle? If you don't obey the commandments of your scripture does it mean that you are following a religion nicely? How you can kill which you cannot create? And it is plainly stated there, "Thou shall not kill." What is the answer? Why they are killing? What is the answer? How do you answer it? Journalist: Are you asking me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: Well, yes, obviously "Thou shall not kill" is an ethic, and it's timeless and it's valid, but man is not really interested in... Prabhupāda: They are not interested in religion. It is simply a makeshow, showbottle. Then how they can be happy? If you do not follow the regulative principles, then where is your religion? Journalist: I'm not arguing with you. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm in total agreement. It doesn't make any sense. "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt worship no other Gods before Me," "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass," "Thy shall honor thy father and thy mother," those are beautiful ethics, but they're not obeyed. Prabhupāda: "Thou shall not kidnap your neighbor's wife." Journalist: Wife, covet. Prabhupāda: So who is following this? Journalist: No one. Very few. Prabhupāda: You see? So how you can expect they're religious. And without religion, human society is animal society. Journalist: All right, but let me ask you this. Along this line... Now I'm not asking you... Prabhupāda: Take it. Take it. *Journalist: Thank you. I'm not asking you any of these questions facetiously. Please understand. What does your interpretation, or how does it differ in principle from the basic Jewish*-Christian ethic of the Ten Commandments? How does it differ? Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Journalist: All right. Then if that's the case what have you to offer... When I say "you" I mean it impersonally. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Journalist: Basically, what have you to offer that is different than the Christian ethos or the Jewish ethos? Prabhupāda: Because, as I told you, that none of them are strictly following God's commandment. I simply come that "You follow God's commandment." That is my message. Journalist: In other words, "You obey those principles." Prabhupāda: I don't say that "You Christian, you become Hindu or you come to me." I simply say "You obey these commandments." That is my order. I make you better Christian. That is my mission. I don't say that "God is not there, God is here," but I simply say that "You obey God." That is my mission. I don't say that you have to come to this platform and accept Kṛṣṇa as God and no other. No. I don't say. I say, "Please obey God. Please try to love God." That is my mission. And I give the way how to love God very easily. How to love, provided you agree. Journalist: Well, see, again we get back to this... Prabhupāda: So practically you follow that I have no difference. Journalist: Yes, I understand. I appreciate. Prabhupāda: Yes. You believe in God, I believe in God. I simply say "You try to love God." Journalist: Well, I... I'm still... It's not that I'm confused. I understand what you're saying... Prabhupāda: You are confused still? *Journalist: No. I understand what you are saying. What confuses me or makes it... When I say, me, and so many of our readers. ...is why is it...? Let me ask the question again. Let me ask it maybe to become clear in my mind. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but let me say it this way. Are you saying that if your mission and the mission of the Jewish, Christian, western ethic is the same, again let me ask the same question, why is it that the younger people or people in general, are disenchanted, are trying to go towards the eastern*-oriented religion if their aim or premise is the same as the western. Why are they going toward the eastern if the premise is the same? Prabhupāda: Because these Christian people, they are not teaching them practically. I am teaching them practically. Journalist: In other words, you're teaching them what you feel is a practical, every day, daily method of obtaining this fulfillment of man's spirit. Prabhupāda: Yes. How to... The love of Godhead is being taught by Bible or Old Testament and *Gītā*, that is all right. But you are not teaching them how to love God. I am teaching them how to love God. That is the difference. Therefore young people are attracted. Journalist: All right. So the end is the same. It's the method of getting there. Prabhupāda: Not method. You are not at all following. Even the method is there. Just as I say, the method is there, "don't kill," and you are killing. Journalist: I see, but your... The end is the same. Your end... Prabhupāda: End is the same. Journalist: Is the same, but it's the way... Prabhupāda: Method is also same, but they are not teaching people to follow the method. I am teaching them practically how to follow and how to do it. Journalist: Let me ask you something that we've run into a great deal just recently. We've just started a youth supplement for kids. And one of the most... What should I say? That particular thing which provides perhaps the biggest schism between man's, or at least American man's and woman's love of God or the following of the Ten Commandments, is the problem, how shall I put it, well, the sexual problem. We here in this country are taught, and we have the Puritan background, that sex is a bad thing. And hopefully we're coming out of it, but when young people, a person reaches the age of puberty... Here in this country, I don't know from other countries. He begins to have a terrible, obviously a terrible problem. Now I'm stating something that's obvious. We've all gone through this. But it seems that is has been impossible for the western churches to give to the young people something to hold on to so that they can understand number one that what they're feeling is a normal beautiful thing, and number two, how to cope with it. And there is nothing in western culture that teaches or helps a young person to cope with this thing that is a very, very difficult problem. And I went through it. We all have. Now do you in your message, give the young people something to hold... Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: ...to hang onto, and if so, what? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes I give. Journalist: What? Prabhupāda: I ask all my disciples to get married. I don't allow these boys living with boyfriend, girlfriend. No. You must get yourself married, life like gentlemen, treat your wife as assistant, treat your husband as your provider. In this way, I am teaching them. This boy was married just four days before. He is professor. So I have got so many of my disciples married, and they are living very happily. This girl is married. Formerly, they were living with girlfriend, boyfriend. I don't allow that. I don't allow that. Journalist: Well, let's... Let me get a little more basic. How about when someone is fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old? Prabhupāda: The same thing. Of course, another thing is that we teach our boys to become brahmacārī. Brahmacārī. Brahmacārī means how to lead the life of celibacy. Journalist: Hm? Prabhupāda: Just Howard explain brahmacārī life. Journalist: Yes, I understand. Hayagrīva: Well, it's control of the senses, and he teaches us how to control the senses. Generally, marriage doesn't take place until a boy is about 22, 23, 25. Journalist: You mean in his culture. Prabhupāda: Yes. We select girl, say, about 16, 17 years old, and boys not more than 24 years old. I get them married. You see? And because their attention is diverted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have very little interest simply for sex life. You see? They have got better engagement. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. You see? We give substitute. We simply don't say that "You don't do it," but we give something better. You see? Then automatically the "don't" automatically comes. You see? Journalist: At the right time. Prabhupāda: Immediately. We give something better engagement. Journalist: What is this? Prabhupāda: Just like our boys and girls, they are all engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, in temple work, in painting, in typing, in recording, so many things. And they are happy. They are not going to cinema, they are not going to club, they are not drinking, they are not smoking. So practically I am training them how to control. And there is possibility because these boys and girls, they are all Americans. They are not imported from India. Why they have taken to this? The system is so nice that they have liked it. So if you spread this system, everything will be solved. Journalist: So then it... Prabhupāda: We don't prohibit that you don't mix with woman or you stop sex life. We don't say that. But we make everything regulated under Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their aim is higher. These are all secondary platform. So in this way everything is nice. Journalist: Is this what Gandhi did? Prabhupāda: Huh? What Gandhi knew? He was a politician. He did not know anything about this culture. Journalist: Well, I read that when he was 36 years old he became a celibate, and that was it. Prabhupāda: That is... Of course, he had some Hindu cultural ideas, yes. That is nice. He began celibacy, that's all right. But Gandhi had no very advanced spiritual ideas. You see. He was more or less politician, statesman. Yes, that's all. Journalist: Yes. A very courageous man. Well the answer seems very pat, so to speak, and if it's that... Prabhupāda: Now, if you cooperate, then I can change the whole thing in your country. They will be very happy. Their everything will be very nice. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice. Provided you cooperate. Nobody is cooperating. Simply these boys, they have kindly come to me and cooperating. So my movement is progressing, but very slowly. But if the leaders of the American people, they come and they try to understand and they try to introduce this system, oh, your country will be the nicest country in the world. Journalist: You... How long have you been involved with this? Hayagrīva: Two and a half years. Journalist: Two and a half years? How old are you if I may ask? Hayagrīva: I'm 28. Journalist: You're 28. Now, has this sort of turned you around? Hayagrīva: Ah, considerably. (laughs) Journalist: From a practical standpoint, how is this sexual thing that the swami was talking about, how has this affected you? Have you found that there is efficacy in that which has been, we were just talking about? 'Cause to me it's a very paramount problem in terms of young people. Hayagrīva: Well, there are desires, and we have so many desires. And the sexual desire is perhaps one of our strongest desires. So... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Hayagrīva: So these desires are channelled so to speak. They are redirected and they are directed toward Kṛṣṇa. Journalist: Well, I understand that, but I'm saying is it efficacious? Does it work? Hayagrīva: Yes, it works. It works. But you have to stick with it. It can be very difficult, especially at first, but it works. You have to resolve to make it work. You have to want it to work. Journalist: Now, I want to understand this thoroughly. In other words, it's nothing that you feel that you're giving up. Hayagrīva: No, it's that when you see something better... Journalist: That's what I'm... That's what I mean. That's... Prabhupāda: Yes. You are accepting something better. Journalist: Better. That's, yes. Not by just biting your tongue or your lip saying, "I won't touch it, I won't touch it." There is a substitute. Hayagrīva: You have a capacity for enjoyment, and you're not going to give up something... It's very human not to give up something unless you have something better. So the case is that you have to get something better than what you want to give up... Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: How long have you been here, sir? Prabhupāda: I came here in September 1965, and then I was little indisposed in May 1967, I think. Then I went back to India. Then again I came back in December 1967, just one year past. Journalist: Yes, I see. Why did you come here? Prabhupāda: Because I want to give this culture to the world, and my idea is that America is advanced country. If they accept it, then it will be possible to broadcast the idea throughout the whole world. That is my idea. But I am hopeful now because these educated young Americans, they are taking serious interest to this movement. And we are publishing papers, books, and they are writing very nicely. So I am old man, I may die, but I have implanted the idea. It will go on. It will go on, and they will be accepted. That experiment is done. If it is nicely propagated, then it will be accepted without any fail. And these boys who have come to me, they have taken seriously. So I am hopeful. Journalist: I saw your magazine. It's a beautiful magazine. Prabhupāda: Back to Godhead? Journalist: Oh yes. A beautiful magazine. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Thank you. Journalist: Beautiful thing. Where is that done? Prabhupāda: It is published in New York. Journalist: In New York. I saw the latest issue... Beautiful magazine. Ah, how many people are in the movement approximately? Prabhupāda: I have got about a little more than one hundred disciples who are strictly following my regulative principles. Journalist: One hundred. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In different branches. I have got about thirteen branches. Some of the disciples are working in London. Yes, they are doing very nice. They are all married couples. I got them married. Yes. I got them married. They're young boys, all within thirty. My oldest disciple he is 28. Otherwise 25, 24. At most 30. And similarly, girls, you have seen this girl. You see. So I get them, make them happy in married life. Their mentality is... They are not after so*-called puffed-up life. They can live very simply with the least demand of bodily necessities, but thinking very high of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I am very hopeful that even I die... Because I am old man, 73 years old. I may die at any moment. But I am now assured my movement will go on. These boys will carry it. That, my mission, is in that way successful. I came here with this idea, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be started from America. Because anything accepted by America, people follow because America is considered to be the... Actually America is not a poverty-stricken country. So they can very easily understand, they can take it. And there are many confused youths. So with all these considerations, I came here, and I think I'm successful, yes. Journalist: Doesn't seem like very many converts in that amount of time. How many followers other... (sneezes) Pardon me please. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Journalist: How many followers are there then, within...? Just a hundred? Prabhupāda: Little more than hundred. Hayagrīva: These are initiates who are strictly following. Of course, there are more and more people come to the temples. More people join us. Journalist: How many temples are there? Prabhupāda: We have got thirteen temples. Thirteen. One in this Los Angeles, one San Francisco, one in New York, one Santa Fe, one Buffalo, one Boston, one Montreal, one Vancouver, and Seattle, Columbus, and then London, Hamburg, in this way... Hawaii. Journalist: Well, there's got to be more than a hundred people in thirteen temples. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, more than a hundred, yes. About a... Hayagrīva: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got list. There are more than hundred. Hayagrīva: Must be at least because that would only be an average of ten per temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here we have got about twenty heads in this temple. Journalist: About twenty. Where does the money come from to print Godhead? Prabhupāda: God sends. (laughs) Journalist: Well, yes, I was pretty sure of that, but God doesn't write checks and stuff like that. I'm just sort of curious. And I must say that... Prabhupāda: God dictates you and you pay. That's all. Journalist: I must say that that answer to that question is a very ambivalent answer. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Yes. I came here... You will be surprised. I came here with seven dollars only and the whole establishment expenditure is not less than, I think, five thousand dollars monthly. At least. Journalist: That's sixty thousand a year. I mean, is it donated? Prabhupāda: Five thousand is very minimal. I think it is more than that. Hayagrīva: I have no idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we are paying... This temple, we are paying four hundred, simply rent. Similarly each and every place we are paying three hundred, four hundred rent. Journalist: Well, do people come to the services who are not disciples and devotees? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we allow everyone, "Come on, chant. Take prasādam." We offer this prasādam. Chant, dance, hear Bhagavad*-gītā, and take prasādam, and go home. Journalist: In other words, if they want to donate something, they donate. Prabhupāda: Yes. We ask donation, that "We are simply depending on donation. If you like, you can pay." People pay. Yes. Journalist: Yes. Is that how the magazine is published? Prabhupāda: Magazine also, we take to the market and put it for sale. People purchase. So actually we have no steady fund. Journalist: Oh, you don't. Prabhupāda: No. We simply depending on Kṛṣṇa. But by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, our movement is increasing. It is not decreasing. Journalist: That's good. I just am curious about this because it's a beautiful magazine. Prabhupāda: So try to help us. Journalist: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Try to help this movement. Your America, there are so many rich men. If somebody comes and helps this movement, one or two, we can make very steady progress. We have no money. We are struggling very hard. You see? This boy is a professor in the Ohio University. So whatever he's earning, he's spending for this. Similarly, all the boys whatever they earn, they spend. But that is not sufficient, you see? We require to make propaganda. We cannot sufficiently publish this magazine. We want to publish it at least fifty thousand per month, but there is no money. We are publishing at most five thousand. (conchshell blowing) Journalist: Who's blowing the shofar? Hayagrīva: Conchshell. Journalist: I thought it was a shofar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Chauffeur? Journalist: The Jewish ram's horn. Prabhupāda: This conchshell sounding is considered auspicious. Yes. Actually it is conchshell sounding. So after offering prayer to the Lord, we bugle this conchshell. Journalist: I guess I've really asked the main question. Not the main question, but the thing I want to know again was, again, why this, and about people like the Maharishi, which turned me off and so many people. My daughter was very involved in that kind of thing for awhile, and she's terribly disillusioned. Prabhupāda: Yes. The psychology is that your people, all the western people, especially youngsters, they are hankering after something, you see? But the difficulty is... Just like me. If somebody comes, "Swamiji, initiate me." I immediately say that "You have to follow these four principles," and he goes away. And this Maharishi, he did not put any restriction, you see? Just like a physician, if he says that "You can do whatever you like. You simply take my medicine, you'll be cured." That physician will be very much liked. You see? Journalist: Yes. He'll kill a lot of people, but he's very liked. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) And a physician which says, "Oh, you cannot do this, you cannot do this, you cannot eat this," it is a botheration. So they want something. That is a fact. But at the same time, they want it very cheap. Therefore the cheaters come and cheat them. They take the opportunity. "These people want to be cheated. Oh let us take the advantage." You see. Otherwise, they are advising that "You are God, everyone is God. You just realize yourself, you have forgotten. You take this mantra, and you become God, and you become powerful. Whatever you like, you can control. And there is no control of senses. You can drink, you can have unrestricted sex life and whatever you like." People like this. "Oh, simply by fifteen minutes meditation, I shall become God, and I have to pay only thirty*-five dollars." So many millions of people will be ready, "Oh, let me." I mean, thirty-five dollars in your country is not... But that much, thirty-five multiplied by million, it becomes thirty-five million dollars. (laughs) And we are crying here because we cannot bluff. We say that if you actually want, you have to follow these restrictions. We cannot allow you that the commandment is "You shall not kill," and I shall say, "Yes, you can kill. The animal has no feeling. The animal has no soul." We cannot bluff in this way. You see. Journalist: Well that's just about it, that I wanted to know. It's a shame that this kind of thing, as I say, has turned off an awful lot of kids, a lot of very disenchanted young people because... Prabhupāda: So please try to help us. This movement is very nice. It will help the humanity. It will help your country, the whole human society. It is a genuine movement, there is nothing bluff, nothing cheating. It is authorized. So I'll request you because... Journalist: Authorized by whom? Prabhupāda: Authorized from Kṛṣṇa. Journalist: Is there in India a licensing body by the state for people to preach or to... How in the heck would you say it here? *Prabhupāda: It was not there because in India there are so many churches, and they're supposed to be very saintly person. So simply to become a disciple of a saintly person is sufficient certificate. Just like in your country, marriage requires certificate. In India still, there is no certificate. The boys and girls, they are seated before the relatives and priest and elderly persons. They are offered. I am doing that. There is no certificate. But still their connection is lifelong. What certificate will do? That ceremony is so nice, the wife takes "My husband for life" and the husband takes wife, "She is my companion for life." They cannot separate. There is no history in India that there was a certificate issued. No. But still, their connection is so nice, that life long. Now, they are being westernized, especially I am very sorry to say that lately our so*-called westernized leaders they are introducing this Hindu code bill, this marriage certificate, this and that. But formerly they weren't existing. Journalist: Is there much divorce in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern, so*-called advanced boys and girls, they are now after divorce. But before that, even there was misunderstanding between husband and wife, quarrel, there was no question of divorce. Take my life practical. I was a householder. Now I have given up. So practically I did not agree with my wife, but there was no dream of divorcing. You see? Neither she dreamt, neither I dreamt. This was unknown. Now they are being introduced. Journalist: Yeah. Western culture. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Journalist: Do you have much of a following in India itself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not my personal, but my other Godbrothers, this cult is very good. Journalist: How many, how many... Prabhupāda: Oh, millions. We have got, this Vaiṣṇava philosophy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, million and millions. Almost all. 80 percent. You ask any Indian and he'll talk so many things about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He may not be my disciple, but there are many saintly person like me. They are doing this business. Journalist: Did you get formal training with a... Prabhupāda: Yes, I was initiated by my Guru Mahārāja. His, here is that, my spiritual master's photo. Journalist: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. So when your country wanted a certificate for making me permanent resident, so I got a certificate from my Godbrothers that I am initiated. That's all. But otherwise, in our country, there is no necessity of certificate. Journalist: In other words, there's nothing like going to a seminary in India where you go to a seminary or a monastery and take a course for four years... Prabhupāda: No, this is monastery. Yes, there is a monastery. We have got institution, Gauḍīya Math Institution. They have got hundreds of branches, yes. Journalist: You go for a prescribed course of study? *Prabhupāda: Yes, prescribed course of study, these two, three books, that's all. Anyone can read. Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or Caitanya-caritāmṛta. You'll learn everything. You haven't got to learn so many huge volumes of books. Because Bhagavad-gītā is such nice book, if you can understand one line, you advance hundred years. You see? So, I mean to say, meaningful and so solid. Therefore we have published this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Let your people read it, let them question, and try to understand what is this movement. Journalist: Macmillan is publishing this one. Prabhupāda: Yes, Macmillan is publishing. Journalist: Now when you... Do you go to this institute for a certain period of time? Prabhupāda: There is no fixed period. No. But, say, for me, I was trained, my father was of this line... Journalist: Oh, your father... *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. My father trained me from childhood, yes. And then I met my spiritual master in 1922, and I was initiated in... On the whole there was a background, because as I told you, 80, 90 percent people are Kṛṣṇa conscious by family*-wise. You see? So we were trained up from the beginning of our life. Officially, of course, I accepted my spiritual master in 1933. Since then, I had some background, and since I met, I developed this idea. Yes. Journalist: I see, I see. So you have been, in a sense, spreading this word since 1933 on your own. Prabhupāda: No. I'm spreading as missionary since nineteen hundred..., practically since '59. Journalist: '59, I see. What did you do from the time... Prabhupāda: I was a householder. I was doing business in medicine. Formerly, I was manager in a big chemical firm. But I was cultivating this knowledge although I was householder. I was publishing this Back to Godhead... Journalist: So you were publishing that... Prabhupāda: In India. Journalist: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I started in 1947 under the order of my spiritual master. So whatever I was earning, I was spending. I was not getting any return, but I was distributing. So I was doing this business since a long time. But actually after giving up all connection with my family, I'm doing this work since 1959. Journalist: Do you have children? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes, I have got grown*-up boys. Journalist: You just left them? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got my wife, my grandchildren, everyone, but I have no connection with them. They are doing their own way. My wife is entrusted to the elderly boys. Yes. Journalist: Well, is that a...? I mean I find that sort of difficult to assimilate, to give up your family and just sort of say, "See you later." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the Vedic regulation. Everyone should give up family connection at a certain age, after the age of 50. One should not remain in family life. That is Vedic culture. Not that up to death, one is in family*-wise, no. That is not good. Journalist: Can you explain that. *Prabhupāda: First of all, a boy is trained as brahmacārī, spiritual life. Then he is advised not to enter family life. But if he is unable to control his sex life, he is allowed, "All right. You get yourself married." Then he remains in family life. So he marries at the age of 24 or 25. 25 years, let him enjoy sex life. In the meantime, he gets some elderly children. So at the age of 50, the husband and wife goes away from the home and they travel in all places of pilgrimage just to detach them from family affection. In this way, when the man is a little more advanced, he asks his wife that "You go and take care of the family and your sons, grown*-up, they'll take care of you. Let me take sannyāsa." So he becomes alone and preaches the knowledge which he has acquired. This is Vedic civilization. Not that a man should remain in family life from birth to death. No. In Buddhism also there is compulsory regulative principle that a Buddhist must become a sannyāsī at least for ten years. Yes. Because the whole idea is how to attain spiritual perfection. So if one remains in his family life, encumbered, he cannot make any spiritual advancement. But if the family also, whole family is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is helpful. But that is very rare. Because the husband may be Kṛṣṇa conscious, the wife may not be. But the culture was so nice that everyone remained Kṛṣṇa conscious. Journalist: Do you think that, really, from a very practical standpoint, do you think that your movement has a chance to make it here in America? Prabhupāda: So far I've seen it has great chance. What do you think? Journalist: From a very pragmatic standpoint what do you think? Really. Hayagrīva: Yes, it has possibilities. I don't know about on a wide scale, but it definitely has possibilities. Especially in I think in these areas, in the cities. Journalist: Cosmopolitan areas. Hayagrīva: Of course, we're also starting a community in West Virginia. Journalist: You are? Why West Virginia? Hayagrīva: Well, this is where we're starting. I've just started it with other's help. Journalist: You're starting it? Prabhupāda: He has secured a land, about 138 acres. Journalist: May I ask you why you picked West Virginia? Hayagrīva: Well, it's mountainous and it's very economical living there. Journalist: Yes, it is mountainous. Well, I mean there's mountains here too. I'm not being facetious. Again, I'm just curious. Hayagrīva: No, it's very economical living there and it's also nicely located because we have temples in New York and in other areas in the east. So it's sort of like, between the east and the west, so it's sort of centrally... Prabhupāda: And one thing is that main supporter is he. He is working in Ohio University. He's nearer. Journalist: Where are you? Hayagrīva: In the Ohio State University. Journalist: That's where you teach? How come you're not teaching now? Hayagrīva: This is Christmas vacation. Journalist: Oh, you're on a vacation. You have tickets to the ball game? Hayagrīva: No. Journalist: Oh. What the heck. I come all the way down here and you can't give me a ticket to the ball game. Ohio State or Ohio University? Hayagrīva: Ohio State. Yes, they're playing the game here. Journalist: Do you think?(?) Hayagrīva: No. That Rose Bowl game. Journalist: Yeah, I would feel that you had not attained that level of being out of it yet that you wouldn't know that. I really think I've asked most of the questions that I want to ask. I really sort of knew the answers. The ultimate of the answer, that is. I can't really think of much else to say or to ask. Have you anything that you'd like to say that may be of some kind of revelation to me or to our readers or something that... You know, what you're really saying, there's no easy way out. (laughs) If man is to attain any goal in his quest for fulfillment, he's got to work at it is really what it amounts to. So your message is really no different from that of Moses or Christ or any of the other great religious leaders. If people will follow the ethic of Ten Commandments, and follow it, that's where it is. Journalist: Well, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sure you know and I'm certainly aware that it's only recently that, for example, a Catholic couldn't even come in here because of some other church. That's changed. Prabhupāda: Now I have written one letter to Pope. You have seen that? Where is that paper? Hayagrīva: It's in here. Journalist: Oh, a letter to the Pope. Did he answer it? Prabhupāda: No, I have not received any answer. Is it in this paper? No, not in this paper. Where is the latest? Who is there? Ask to bring one latest. Bring one latest, yes. So we just that letter, but unfortunately, I have received no reply. How is that? Journalist: I guess he doesn't figure that you're of sufficient importance for him to deign a reply, I guess. That's about the way I figure it. They don't...are inclined not to give credence to too much that isn't of his own doing or making or something. Prabhupāda: Do you think that is very nice? Just... Will you read or, read this. Read it. (pause) Journalist: What is the "renounced order"? Prabhupāda: This is renounced. I have no family connection. Journalist: Oh, oh. (pause as journalist reads letter) Prabhupāda: I used to cooperate with everyone, but they are declining. What can I do? I am prepared to talk with any God conscious man. Let us chalk out a program so that people may be benefited, but they want to go in their own stereotyped way. The Pope himself is harassed by the contraceptive proposal. People want sanction from him to use unrestricted contraceptive method. Journalist: But you've received no reply at all. *Prabhupāda: If we see that following a particular type of religious principle one is developing his love of Godhead, that is first*-class religion. But if one is developing his love for demon or mammon then where is the religion? Journalist: True. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) You see. That is our test. If you have developed... We don't say that you follow Christianism or Muhammadanism or Jewism or Hinduism*-we don't say. Whether you are developing your love of Godhead. But they deny, "Oh, I am God. Who is God? I am God." You see? Everyone is taught nowadays that everyone is God. Just see how fun. Everyone is God. Do you think like that? Journalist: You know from Meher Baba? Prabhupāda: He is also another rascal. He is preaching this that everyone is God. Journalist: He says he's God. Prabhupāda: He's God. Just see. This is going on. Journalist: Do you know him? Prabhupāda: I have heard his name. I don't care to know these people. He's making some propaganda he's God. *Journalist: He says he hasn't spoken in forty years, forty*-five years. Prabhupāda: That means people do not know what is God. Suppose if I come to you, if I say I am President Johnson, will you accept me? Journalist: No (laughing) I don't think I would. Prabhupāda: But these people, rascals, will accept him as God because they do not know what is God. That is the defect. We know what is God, therefore we cannot accept any rascal declaring that he's God. That is the difference. Journalist: Well it's just absolutely absurd that somebody comes out and tells you he's God. Prabhupāda: But how much rascal he is who accepts him as God. He's rascal number one. He is a cheater and the man who is cheated he is also another rascal. He does not know what is God. Anybody comes as God, as God has become so cheap it can be available in the market, everywhere. Journalist: Well of course the western concept that man is created in the image of God, consequently God must look like man kind of thing, therefore any man can be God. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got so many scientists. Just find out what is the image of God, whether his form is not... Where is that department? You have no such department. You have got so many department, technology department, this department. Where is that department, what is God to know? Is there any department of knowledge? Journalist: I don't know if... There's no God department working tonight I'll tell you that right now. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. And here is, here is the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is the department of knowledge how to know God. Then you'll not accept any rascal as God, you'll accept only God as God. (end) Talk Before Lecture -- January 20, 1969, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...ornament Kṛṣṇa, the more you become rich. The reflection, Kṛṣṇa being richly dressed, richly fed, it will be reflected on you. Kṛṣṇa is not in necessity, but we should dress Kṛṣṇa with the first quality ornaments. In India the Deities, They are given very, very valuable jewelry. The Mohammedans were attracted for these jewelries, and they came to India to plunder the temples to get the jewelries. Still, temples have millions of dollars of jewelries. Any such temple. In Jagannātha temple there is a valuable jewel. Just here, it is kept here, in a pocket. So Deity should be very nicely dressed. That is the temple worship. At the same time should be careful also. Chant. (end) Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles Interviewer: We have with us in the studio the head and founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and I think that his name is pronounced Bhaktivedanta, Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: How long have you been in this country? Prabhupāda: Since 1965, September. Interviewer: Did you come to found this society? Prabhupāda: Not exactly, but I came to preach the gospel of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and fortunately I met some enthusiastic young boys and girls. So then we formed this society. Interviewer: This was in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes. I first came in New York. Then I went to Pittsburgh, and for one year I was traveling, and I established this society in July 1, 1966. Interviewer: How many centers are there now? Prabhupāda: There are six centers. Why six? Seven. Seven centers. One in New York, one in San Francisco, one in Los Angeles, and one, Santa Fe, one, Montreal, one, Boston, one, Buffalo. Interviewer: And do you spend a certain amount of time in each center? Do you yourself travel from one center to another? Prabhupāda: Yes. I travel... Just like now I am this side, and from here I'll go to New York. Then I shall go to Boston. Then I shall go to Buffalo. Then I shall go to Montreal. In this way I travel. Interviewer: And in the main, are the people who have gathered around you, younger people? *Prabhupāda: Yes. My disciples are all between twenty to thirty years. Generally they are between twenty to twenty*-five, utmost, thirty years old. Interviewer: Is that deliberate on your part... Prabhupāda: No. Interviewer: ...or is it simply that that is the age group that has been attracted to your teaching? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. That is the fact. I invite everyone, old and young, but generally the youngsters, they are attracted. Interviewer: Have you any idea what the number of the people are nationally? Prabhupāda: So far initiated members, they are about, not less than hundred. But there are many others, admirers. In each center there are at least fifty to sixty members. Interviewer: I assume that being an initiated member means that the individual has acquainted himself sufficiently with your teaching and gone through certain disciplines? Is that? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Certainly. That is the first condition to accept one as my disciple, because there are some restriction. I don't allow illicit sex life. I don't allow intoxication. I don't allow meat*-eating and gambling. So I build up their character. So naturally my followers are very restricted. (chuckles) Interviewer: Well, now, I'd like to go over in some greater detail what the disciples may and may not do. I think that's where... I just wanted to get some of the factual background before we went into that. Now, your, the sexual abstinence does not include marriage, I gather. Prabhupāda: No. Marriage allowed. Interviewer: Marriage is allowed. Prabhupāda: I say, "illicit sex." Without marriage, sex relation is forbidden. Interviewer: I see. Would you say that there were times when, well, that there were marriages which were also illicit? Prabhupāda: No. Of course, in civilized human society, either in India or in any other country, marriage is considered as sanctified, either in Hindu community or Christian community or Mohammedan community. But apart from that, for spiritual advancement, according to Vedic culture, sex indulgence is always restricted. Interviewer: Always restricted. For purposes of procreation only? Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. Sex, sex intercourse, is recommended only for good children. That's all. Interviewer: Only to create children. Prabhupāda: Yes, good children. Interviewer: Good children. Well, if the parents are good, then there is a remarkable possibility that the children may have a chance to be. Is that not true? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the fact. That is the fact. Interviewer: And you said that your followers may not drink? What about the drug picture, marijuana, LSD, and those? *Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't... There is no question, because all kinds of intoxication prohibited. We don't allow even smoking and tea*-drinking, coffee-taking. You see? Any kind of intoxication we don't allow. Interviewer: In other words, I guess it would be correct to say that this is in the Western sense of the word, a religious order. Prabhupāda: It is not religious order. It is cultural because one cannot understand higher philosophical things if he is intoxicated. Interviewer: No, I meant the whole, the over all picture of your group. You speak of initiates, you speak of certain disciplines. This is almost... I'm trying to translate it into Western terms. Like a religious order. Prabhupāda: No, it is... Interviewer: Now, you could say philosophical order, a cultural order. But the people... Prabhupāda: Yes. Religious... If you say religious orders, there are many religious orders; they allow all these things. It is not exactly religious order. It is training of consciousness, because we are trying to put people in original, pure consciousness, which we call, technically, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like when rain is showered from the cloud, it is pure distilled water, but as soon as it is in touch with the earth, it is salty or so many chemicals are formed, similarly, original consciousness is pure, but when it is contaminated with matter, the consciousness is impure. So we are trying to purify the consciousness. That's all. That is our program. It is not a religious order. Consciousness is there in every living entity, and we are trying to purify his consciousness. When he comes to his original consciousness he becomes completely happy. Interviewer: Does your method include meditation, austerity of various sorts... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is austerity. Interviewer: ...in addition to no alcohol, no drugs? Prabhupāda: We don't mention any particular thing. Generally we say "No intoxication." Interviewer: But that's a negative. I'm talking now about... What about the positive aspects of it? Because I have known some very wicked people who never indulged in intoxicants. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes... Interviewer: I doubt if that is your dividing line. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Simply becoming non*-intoxicated does not mean that he is a very good man. That I admit. Interviewer: Does the method include meditation? What... How do you go about this process? Prabhupāda: Our process is... It is also meditation. But as you understand by meditation, that concentrating the mind upon some super subject matter, the same thing is there, but we don't try to concentrate the mind artificially. But our, this chanting process immediately attracts the mind. Our process is... Just like Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. We chant it in melodious song. So mind is attracted, and we try to hear the sound. That means my mind and my ear is compact in that thought. Therefore it is practical meditation. Interviewer: And there is a great deal of the repetitive chanting involved then in the meditation? How much is preaching? Supposing you were going, you are gathered together to accomplish this approach to consciousness. What happens? Do you speak with your disciples? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Interviewer: And do they raise questions or is it a formalized ritual? *Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all we pray to God to help us in the, our, I mean to say, preaching or chanting process. Then we begin chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma, conjoinedly, congregationally. And it immediately transfers the atmosphere to a spiritual feeling, and if you sometimes attend our class, you can see practically how the boys and girls, they become ecstatic and chant and dance. So after chanting and dancing for a few minutes, say, fifteen to twenty minutes, then we speak something from Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about theology and philosophy, ethics, morality. Then again we chant and pray to God and then close our class. Interviewer: Is your philosophy, your approach to consciousness, based on the *Gītā*? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, Bhagavad*-gītā. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness means practical understanding of Bhagavad-gītā. This is the sum and substance. I thank you for your capturing the idea. Bhagavad-gītā is the sum and substance of the whole Vedic literature, and it is very nicely explained, things as they are. Unfortunately there are so many interpreters. They interpret the verses in their own way. That is the nonsense of the whole thing. But if Bhagavad-gītā understood as it is, oh, it is a great boon to the human society. Interviewer: In what... Are there fundamental differences between, or is it simply a difference in approach between your awareness and interpretations and, for example, those of the people who are involved with Zen? With some of the other Eastern concepts? Would you like to... *Prabhupāda: No, of course, I do not know what is Zen conception, or Eastern conception, but we agree with many of them, just like we agree with the concept of God presented by Bible or Koran. That is recognized. And Bhagavad*-gītā is so simple that it does not require any interpretation. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. When things are not understood, then you can interpret, I can interpret. So the verses of Bhagavad-gītā are so simple that there is no question of interpretation. Unfortunately I have seen that in Bhagavad-gītā, commented by a great scholar like Dr. Radhakrishnan, the verse is translated very nicely and that is done by an Englishman, but he interprets in a different way. So when we can understand the thing very nicely, there is no question of interpretation. You see? Interviewer: Well, would you say that, agree with those who say that in the people who have understood, in all the great schools of thought they have come to approximately, at least and sometimes almost, identical conclusions. The thinking of the great mystics in all religions have been in essential agreement. Prabhupāda: The thing is that religion is a different thing. Religion is a kind of faith. You may have your faith in a certain type of procedure; I may have a certain type of procedure. That is different thing. Suppose you are now Christian. You may change your faith to Mohammedanism. But you as person, you do not change. Your faith may change. Similarly, we are concerned with consciousness. Interviewer: Yes, but so have all of the great teachers been concerned with consciousness. It's a question of whether or not it's achieved. I presume that's why you work at this. Prabhupāda: Yes. But thing is that there are two processes for understanding the Absolute Truth. One is ascending process, and one is descending process. We accept that descending process. Ascending process means trying to understand the Absolute Truth by dint of one's limited knowledge. Our knowledge... However I may be great, my senses are imperfect. You see? I cannot understand the sun, although I see every day sun, without understanding the sun as it is from authoritative books. Simply by seeing, by, simply by sense perception, we cannot understand. Now, this machine, simply by seeing, I cannot understand. But if I hear from authorities that "This is this; this is that," that understanding is right. Similarly, Absolute Truth cannot be understood by mental speculation, however a great thinker he may be. It must be understood from the authorities. So that... We follow that principle. We try to understand Absolute Truth from the lips of the Absolute Truth, not otherwise. That is the difference. Interviewer: And by applying it in... Prabhupāda: In practical life. Interviewer: In practical life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: That was really what my question was involved in, is that what you believe and what you are can be two different... Prabhupāda: No. What we believe... What we hear, we try to apply in practical behavior. Yes. Interviewer: And apart from the... *Prabhupāda: Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā the last instruction is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. The Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up everything. Just surrender unto Me, and I take charge of you." So we have surrendered unto Him, yes, completely. So what we hear, we do that. Interviewer: Among your followers is the part of their lives which is not involved with the rules of your organization or with the formal meetings. Are there...? Do they simply proceed with their normal lives and work at jobs? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, work. Interviewer: I mean, are there any prohibitions as to what type of work? For example, would a follower of yours work in a war industry? Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is no other work, he can work in war industry, because he has to live. After all, he must earn something. Without earning, how can he live? So if there is no better job, he can accept any job. What can be done? Interviewer: You take no... Prabhupāda: But if we can get a better job... Suppose the war industry or butcher industry... That is also an industry. So if somebody offers some job in the butchery, naturally we are not inclined to accept such job, but... Interviewer: I believe in the Buddhist philosophy that there are some professions like slaughtering animals and so on which are... Prabhupāda: So far Buddhist philosophy is concerned... Interviewer: And that's why I wondered if there were prohibitions within, you know, the outside contact with society that you make. Prabhupāda: But our formula is that one should live... It is called sato vṛtteḥ. The vṛtti, the profession or the means of livelihood, must be very fair. Must be very fair. Sato vṛtteḥ. Because association will contaminate my mind and my intelligence, therefore, as far as possible, sato vṛtti. And this sato vṛtti is a Sanskrit word. According to the purification of profession, livelihood, one is called a brāhmaṇa, one is called a kṣatriya, one is called a vaiśya, one is called a śūdra, one is called lower than the śūdras. You see? So that is also... But in this age one cannot stick to a particular profession. Just like for the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas... For brāhmaṇas it is enjoined that they should learn scripture and they should preach scripture. That's all. They have six kinds of occupation. One of the main is this, to learn and to teach. But at the present moment everything has changed. So there is change. But as far as possible, we don't accept a profession or any job which is abominable. Interviewer: What else would you like to tell us? Prabhupāda: Yes. I like to tell to everyone that this human form of life is meant for reviving our original pure consciousness. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we should not waste time because life is very short. And therefore, before we meet next death, we must finish this job of understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness rightly so that our human mission may be fulfilled. Yes. That is what I want to say. This is a very scientific and authorized means of purifying consciousness, and it is very easy also at the same time. It can be accepted without any loss, but the gain is very great. So people should take advantage of this movement and fulfill the mission of human form of life. Interviewer: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (end) Conversation -- March 28, 1969, Hawaii Prabhupāda: What is that? Govinda dāsī: I was going to turn it on without you knowing it, but you noticed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: I was going to turn it on so I could tape what you were saying without you noticing, but you noticed. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Oh. Now you can stop. (end) *Conversation Including Çrémad*-Bhägavatam 1.2.1-34 Recitation & Explanation -- April 1, 1969, San Francisco Prabhupāda: "So we want to see him naked in this assembly." So she prayed Kṛṣṇa. *Mahābhārata* story is very nice, how Kṛṣṇa, protecting His devotee. Gargamuni: Swamiji? Didn't Karṇa request Arjuna not to fight when he was lifting the chariot? Didn't Karṇa request Arjuna not to kill him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Request. But Kṛṣṇa said, "No. You kill him. I say." Arjuna said, "That's all right. (laughter) When You order me, 'Fight,' I don't care for any morality or discipline. Your order is 'Fight.' " Devotee: Can you chant for us loudly? Can you chant from the Bhāgavata? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh, thank you very much. All should be offered there, Jagannātha. The etiquette is nice. Everything should be offered to the, through the spiritual master. That is the etiquette. No direct. (Prabhupāda chants the second chapter of First Canto.) One chapter. Just play it. [break] ...have the sound only. (Laughs) The explanation... I shall give you little explanation. Gargamuni: Isn't the sound, though, as good as the explanation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hearing is always good. Gargamuni: Although we don't know what it means, but just the sound. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Sound will act. Just like "Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," is acting, similarly. Gargamuni: What chapter is this, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: This is second chapter, First Canto. Sūta Gosvāmī, before speaking to the audience, he is offering his respect to the spiritual master. To offer respect to anyone means to remember his qualification. Just like we sing... Just like you offer respect to your spiritual master. What is the meaning? Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Through. Nārāyaṇaṁ namaskṛtya naraṁ caiva narottamam [SB 1.2.4]. Yes. Gargamuni: Oh, that's his master. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Naraṁ caiva narottamam devīṁ sarasvatīṁ. Sarasvatī, the goddess of learning. And Vyāsam, and then Vyāsadeva, who is the master of Vedic literature. One after another. This is... Vyāsaṁ tato jayaṁ udīrayet. Then he is... He was questioned by the audience that what is the most important religion in this age? That was their question. There are many types of religious principles. So what is the best one for this age? So he is replying that question. Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka*-maṇgalam [SB 1.2.5]. "You have put very nice question, because you have put the question that 'What is the best religion for the people of this age?' " Yat-kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno yenātmā suprasīdati. "And you have, you are very much anxious to understand the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. It is very nice. By this discussion everyone will become actually peaceful and satisfied." So the answer, "What is the best religious principle?" He is answering. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. "My dear brāhmaṇas..." in that meeting all the audience were great learned sages and brāhmaṇas. So he is addressing them. That is the best form of religion which performing one becomes elevated to devotional service of the Lord. Not religious formalities. One has to test by the result. Phalena paricīyate. You are Christian, I am Hindu, or he is Mohammedan. That's all right. You are very good, I am very good, he is very good. But what is the result of your following religion? Have you attained love of God? Simply I go the church, I go to temple, and I do all kinds of nonsense, I have no love for God, I have love for my māyā and I go simply..., that is useless. Religious principle means... It doesn't matter whether you are Hindu or Christian or Muslim or anything. It doesn't matter. Just see Bhāgavata. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo [SB 1.2.6]. That sort of religion is nice, best, by which you can develop love of Godhead. It doesn't mention that "This religion is best, that religion is best." That religion is best which helps someone, the religionist, to develop love of God, Godhead. If you put to test all kinds of religion in this formula of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you'll understand which religion is best. You haven't got to ask anybody. Simply by testing how much one has developed love of Godhead. How much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa or God. If, following any type of religion, if you get this result, then you have performed your religious principle very nicely. This is the answer. And what kind of love? Ahaitukī, without any cause. "Oh, I love God because I want something from Him." Generally, as they love God, distress, they want something. "My dear Lord, I am very unhappy. Please help me." That is also good. That is not bad. That is accepted in Bhagavad-gītā. But that is not pure love. Pure love means there is no reason. "Why I am loving Kṛṣṇa? Oh, there is no reason. I love Kṛṣṇa. I want Kṛṣṇa." This is love. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... You have got this translation in my first book, that, that Advaita has quoted that śloka in his sermon.(?) "Whatever you do, You are my Lord. I don't mind whether You put me into distress or You put me into happiness. Or if You don't help me in realizing You. It doesn't matter. Still, I love You. Whether I am going to hell or heaven, it doesn't matter. But I love You." Just like Cowper said, "England, with all thy fault, I love you." This is love. This is material, crude. Ahaitukī apratihatā. Apratihatā means that business, "I love Kṛṣṇa," cannot be stopped. "I could not love Kṛṣṇa because I was busy in doing this thing or that thing, or because..." So many reason we can put forward. No. Love of Kṛṣṇa cannot be stopped by any material reason. That is love. Nobody can say that "For this reason I could not love Kṛṣṇa." There is no reason. There is no impediment for anyone. Any circumstances. So any religious principle which helps a person to love Kṛṣṇa and God, in that way, without any reason, without any impediment... Just like flow of the river. There is no impediment in this world which can stop the flow of the river. Or the waves of the Pacific Ocean. There is no power in the material world which can stop the waves going on, going on, going on. You see? Similarly, that is the best type of religion. Now just see how Bhāgavata is liberal in the description of religion. Religion... You are religious, you are very pious man-how it will be tested? How much you have developed love of God. That's all. Without any reason, without any impediment. This is test of best religion. Vāsudeve... (aside:) Guru dāsa, you can hear? Yes. *Gargamuni: Thank you for chanting Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. You have got Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Read very carefully. All these things are already explained there. Cut it into pieces and distribute. Devotee: Swamiji? Should we read just one chapter a day or... Prabhupāda: It is very nice if you read one chapter *Bhāgavatam* daily. It is very nice. You make it a point to read one chapter daily. That is very nice. Devotee: No more? *Prabhupāda: No, if you can do more, that's all right. Just like I ask everybody to chant 16 rounds. But if you can chant 1600 rounds, then who prohibits you? You can do that. But we should make a regulation of our life, that "So many times I chant. One chapter I shall read. I shall go to the temple at this time." In this way we must have routine work. Then we'll get practiced automatically. Yes. And Gosvāmīs, the Six Gosvāmīs, they were following routine work. Even they... Sāṅkhyā*-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. They were doing regularly counting. Just like you are counting sixteen rounds. Not only chanting in that counting, but they were offering obeisances also by counting, that "Hundred times I shall offer my obeisances." You see? This is regular routine. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Swamiji, can you tell me about what you said, going through the spiritual master, not directly to Kṛṣṇa, through the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you just tell me something about it? *Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is the representative of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you work in some office, so there is one head man, representative of the proprietor of the company. You have to work under him. If you satisfy that person who is in charge of that department, that means you are satisfying the proprietor of the company. Is it clear? And he can give you direction how to work nicely because he's experienced. The boss. So spiritual master is external manifestation of God. God is within and without. Within, He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation. So God is helping from within and without. Within, as Paramātmā, and without as spiritual master. Both ways. As soon as you are sincere, then God will send you to somebody who is His bona fide spiritual representative. And if you take help from him, and help within and without... Just like a person going, or a boy going to a school, he's getting training in the school as well as home, both sides. Then his chance is very good. So we have to take both wise: from inside, from outside. You are doing some things in the service of the Lord. How you'll know that you are doing it properly or improperly? This you will know from the spiritual master. If he says, "It is all right," then it is all right. If he says, "It is not good," then it is not good. Just like the same way. The officer in charge, if he is satisfied (with) your work, that means you have satisfied the government or the supreme company, arranger, with whom you have no direct connection. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo **. Therefore it is said that if you satisfy your spiritual master, that means you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. And yasya prasādād na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. And if you have not satisfied your spiritual master, then you must know that you are, what is called, there is no certainty about your whereabouts, what you are doing. Na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. Therefore, dhyāyan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaṁ vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. So spiritual master is necessary and his direction is necessary. That is the system of disciple succession. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, Arjuna is surrendering. He was Kṛṣṇa's friend. Why he surrendered himself, "I am your disciple." You see in the Bhagavad-gītā. He had no necessity. He was personal friend, talking, sitting, eating together. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as spiritual master. So that is the way. There is a system to understand. It is specifically mentioned, śiṣyas te 'ham. "I am your disciple now." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. "You kindly instruct me." And then He began teaching Bhagavad-gītā. Unless one becomes a śiṣya, or disciple, it is prohibited, not to instruct. Not to inst... That instruction is useless. That is the system. We are instructing in the class because there are few disciples who have taken vow to learn from me. Otherwise, I have no business to teach the public. The public may come. But actual interest is to teach my disciples. But that is secondary. For the public, secondary. But real business is to teach the disciples. Just like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was meant for Parīkṣit Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī's disciple. But there were many others present. They also heard. Yes? Gargamuni: Well, how can we begin to serve you so that you'll be pleased? Prabhupāda: (laughs) That I shall tell you later on. (laughter) Do you think I am not pleased? Gargamuni: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Oh, you must know it. How can you say that I am not pleased? How you know it that I am not pleased? Gargamuni: Well, we cause you so much anxiety and everything. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gargamuni: We cause you so much anxiety due to our faults. Prabhupāda: Therefore I am pleased with you. Why I have given up all my anxieties of the sons and daughters who is born from my body, and why I am taking and transferring... (end) Conversation A -- April 24, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: . . . tree? Haṁsadūta: Puruṣottama. Prabhupāda: How many rose trees Jayānanda has? Puruṣottama: 108. Prabhupāda: 108. So at least 108 flowers we'll have daily. Yes. So it is very nice. Our Hawaii, place is also very nice. Devotee: Hawaii. They have a new place? Prabhupāda: Yes, the place where now Govinda dāsī is staying, a very nice place, just on the seaside. And the house is two stories, entire house among the fig trees. There is nice arrangement. So you had any correspondence with her? Jadurāṇī: A little. Prabhupāda: So what does she say? *Jadurāṇī: She said the flowers weren't out yet, but that was months ago. We have some mail for you. One letter is from her with up*-to-date news. Prabhupāda: Oh. Some devotees are coming. And in Honolulu, two boys, they are also doing. In Hawaii there are two branches now. Yes. One at Honolulu, one at Kauai. Kauai. That island's name is Oahu. Hawaii has five islands' stretch, and this is called Oahu. Oahu island, one side, Honolulu, and one side . . . this island means hill. And the valley of the hills are utilized for residential purpose. So all sides, Pacific Ocean. And there is ample production of sugar cane and pineapple. I was chewing sugar cane as it is. (laughter) Yes. And there is so many coconut trees, palm trees, and mango. In mango season they throw away mangoes. So I have asked Govinda dāsī that, "You make mango pulp and dry it and send it." So they are doing nice, husband and wife, Gaurasundara. Yes. Trying their best. I do not know whether they are working now. Himāvatī: Govinda dāsī is working. Prabhupāda: Working. She can work. She can earn $400 at least. Devotee: Typing? Prabhupāda: Yes. She is good typist. Devotee: We have one boy in Montreal, he says that he wants to go to Florida the first of May. His father is a real estate man. So he wants to get a job and then get a temple, and he wants someone to come there. He said me preferably. Prabhupāda: All right. This South, North Carolina, they are also doing . . . (laughs) Devotee: He wants to go to Palm Beach. Palm Beach is the richest place in the country. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be all right. And Boston . . . Buffalo is also doing nice. Oh, yes. The students are educated circle. They are taking interest, both the boys and girls. And three meetings I attended. Every meeting was full, two hundred boys and girls. *They were dancing, chanting, asking very intelligent question. And Rūpānuga is holding class. There will be some examination of the students. They accept papers. Yes. Some Indians are coming from long distance. One Indian gentleman, he came to see me from . . . what is that place? Ninety*-two miles away from Buffalo. Himāvatī: Did you see Nauvanī? Nauvanī? Prabhupāda: Nauvanī is there. Yes. He is there still. He is also very good. He works very nice in the temple. Devotee: Every day. Prabhupāda: He's a very good man. Everyone who will come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become good man, even he's a bad man. (laughs) That is the influence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair gunaiḥ tatra samāsate suraḥ ( SB 5.18.12). All godly qualities will develop in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the test. Now, our students, nobody can compare with their behavior, with their character, with their innocence. Everything nicest. So don't worry. Simply go on chanting. Everything will be all right. Don't worry. Jadurāṇī: Sometimes I get concerned about temple affairs. Prabhupāda: You . . . that's all right. For the time being you don't touch. You chant, and everything will be . . . soon you will be in good health. Then you will again work. Yes. Śāradīyā, you are painting? No. All right, you finish your school. You are going to school? Śāradīyā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. You are painting? That's nice. You? That's nice. Practice painting nicely. We'll require so many pictures. We shall publish so many pictures, book. (to another devotee) You are not painting. You have no time to paint. You have got enough engagement. So you can . . . so long you are here, you just show how to Deity worship, how you are doing that, and they will learn. Yes. She is doing that very nice. Yes. So you can, all of you, all girls, you take, how she is doing. Who is doing here temple worship? Haṁsadūta: Are you going to give some more instruction? Prabhupāda: No. This is . . . in this age temple worship is not recommended. Haṁsadūta: It's not recommended. But Deity worship is temple worship? *Prabhupāda: It is Deity worship. Because nobody can actually very nicely perform. This age is not suitable. You see? Temple worship, the regulation, the engagement—at least four, five men must always be engaged, always, twenty*-four hours. Haṁsadūta: In the temple worship. In the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. We haven't got sufficient men, neither we can arrange such a way. Besides that, your previous culture, everything is completely different. So in this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu has . . . this saṅkīrtana , Hare Kṛṣṇa, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). This is all round. But at the same time, if you can perform as far as possible, that's nice, Deity worship. In this age Deity worship is secondary. Saṅkīrtana is primary. Haṁsadūta: Does it matter who performs the Deity worship? Does it matter? I mean is it some particular person? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is called arcana*-siddhi . Haṁsadūta: Who should do it? I mean, in the temple who should do it? Prabhupāda: No, everyone should do it. Haṁsadūta: Everyone should take part. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should learn. Everyone should learn. Sometimes somebody is doing something, somebody is doing something. Yes, like that. Everyone should be expert in every respect, twenty*-six qualification. (car sound outside) You have got car here? No. Nobody has got car amongst our disciples? Jadurāṇī: No. Himavatī: Do you need a car, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: No, because the temple is here, just in front. So what is the use of car? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, I found a place very likely for a new temple. And I've gone so far as . . . the lawyer even drew up a lease. So maybe tomorrow you could look at it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. What is the description? Satsvarūpa: Very excellent location, right downtown. The things wrong with it is that the temple area is no bigger than the temple area we have now, but the location is just the greatest. Second floor. Still, right downtown. Prabhupāda: Second floor. So what is the rent? *Satsvarūpa: Three hundred a month. But we can do it as long as . . . presently, Patita*-pāvana is working and so am I, and sometimes the gopīs get some money. So we wouldn't have any problem as long as Patita-pāvana would continue to work. Prabhupāda: All right, Kṛṣṇa will solve the problems. But the space is not lesser than this temple? Satsvarūpa: Well, the temple room is maybe even smaller than the present temple room, but then there's another large, very large room for a kitchen, and then another space for where bunks could be for sleeping. So there's actually three different spaces. The thing is that the main temple hall is not too large. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That doesn't matter. You have to take saṅkīrtana party. That should be the main business. And the . . . at least sixteen men, four mṛdaṅgas . Practice mṛdaṅga like that. And twelve cymbals, and one chanting and all other responding. Oh, it will be tremendous. Take some flags, "ISKCON", “Hare Kṛṣṇa" flag, red flag. You see? And conchshell, mṛdaṅga . In New York they are doing now, and they also one day collected 240 dollars or something like that. What is that? *Puruṣottama: Two hundred and forty*-seven. *Prabhupāda: Two hundred and forty*-seven. You see? (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: I'll try in Montreal. We have new devotees now, lot of new boys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, you will get devotees. You just begin saṅkīrtana party, you will get many devotees. You see? In Los Angeles, daily the devotees, new devotees, are coming, and very nice boys. We are now searching after a bigger place. Yes. That temple is not sufficient, although that is the biggest center of all our centers. It has got compound. *It has got parking place. It has got two big halls, one big room, one big kitchen, and three, four, five small rooms. It is a nice situation, you see, just suitable for our purpose. And they decorate Jagannātha very nicely. Yes. So increase centers. And what is the name of the boy who went to . . . Nanda*-kiśora. He wants to open Toronto? Haṁsadūta: In Toronto. Toronto is a very good place to go. Prabhupāda: So let him open. Haṁsadūta: Let him go? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Okay. But not alone. He needs someone else, I think. He needs one more boy. I don't think by himself he can do it. Prabhupāda: That we shall arrange, somebody to go. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Maybe you remember Mr. Saini in Montreal? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Well, he approached me just recently. He wants to open a store, Indian store and goods, and he wants the boys in the temple to work there. He wants to make some arrangement so the temple will get some money. Prabhupāda: He is very cunning man. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know. I don't trust him at all. So maybe I shouldn't . . . Prabhupāda: He wants to utilize our men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Don't deal with him, right? That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: He wants a cheap, cheap price. (break) I don't believe all these things they have . . . they have come here to beg, to make money. You see? Their mentality cannot be good. Haṁsadūta: I have another plea from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is a good boy. Haṁsadūta: Oh, he's very nice. Oh, he's getting so nice. He wants to come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because he is serving. Himavatī: He lives in our house now. Haṁsadūta: He lives with us now. You know we have another house, the whole house, and almost everyone now is a devotee there. And they're eating prasādam . He lives there. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is very nice boy. You give him good protection, and he will turn very good help. Sevonmukhe . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be, I mean to say, appreciated only by service. There is no other . . . no other way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Brs. 1.2.234). You cannot catch Kṛṣṇa by any way — by your riches, by your beauty, by your . . . because He excels everything. How you can make Him under your control? You can simply make Him under your control by service, like the gopīs did. Yes. What is this? Prasāda ? Oh, I think I cannot take any. All right, I shall take some. Satsvarūpa: The devotees have prasādam over at the temple that's ready. Prabhupāda: Oh, they can take. They can go. (end) Conversation A -- April 24, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: . . . tree? Haṁsadūta: Puruṣottama. Prabhupāda: How many rose trees Jayānanda has? Puruṣottama: 108. Prabhupāda: 108. So at least 108 flowers we'll have daily. Yes. So it is very nice. Our Hawaii, place is also very nice. Devotee: Hawaii. They have a new place? Prabhupāda: Yes, the place where now Govinda dāsī is staying, a very nice place, just on the seaside. And the house is two stories, entire house among the fig trees. There is nice arrangement. So you had any correspondence with her? Jadurāṇī: A little. Prabhupāda: So what does she say? *Jadurāṇī: She said the flowers weren't out yet, but that was months ago. We have some mail for you. One letter is from her with up*-to-date news. Prabhupāda: Oh. Some devotees are coming. And in Honolulu, two boys, they are also doing. In Hawaii there are two branches now. Yes. One at Honolulu, one at Kauai. Kauai. That island's name is Oahu. Hawaii has five islands' stretch, and this is called Oahu. Oahu island, one side, Honolulu, and one side . . . this island means hill. And the valley of the hills are utilized for residential purpose. So all sides, Pacific Ocean. And there is ample production of sugar cane and pineapple. I was chewing sugar cane as it is. (laughter) Yes. And there is so many coconut trees, palm trees, and mango. In mango season they throw away mangoes. So I have asked Govinda dāsī that, "You make mango pulp and dry it and send it." So they are doing nice, husband and wife, Gaurasundara. Yes. Trying their best. I do not know whether they are working now. Himāvatī: Govinda dāsī is working. Prabhupāda: Working. She can work. She can earn $400 at least. Devotee: Typing? Prabhupāda: Yes. She is good typist. Devotee: We have one boy in Montreal, he says that he wants to go to Florida the first of May. His father is a real estate man. So he wants to get a job and then get a temple, and he wants someone to come there. He said me preferably. Prabhupāda: All right. This South, North Carolina, they are also doing . . . (laughs) Devotee: He wants to go to Palm Beach. Palm Beach is the richest place in the country. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be all right. And Boston . . . Buffalo is also doing nice. Oh, yes. The students are educated circle. They are taking interest, both the boys and girls. And three meetings I attended. Every meeting was full, two hundred boys and girls. *They were dancing, chanting, asking very intelligent question. And Rūpānuga is holding class. There will be some examination of the students. They accept papers. Yes. Some Indians are coming from long distance. One Indian gentleman, he came to see me from . . . what is that place? Ninety*-two miles away from Buffalo. Himāvatī: Did you see Nauvanī? Nauvanī? Prabhupāda: Nauvanī is there. Yes. He is there still. He is also very good. He works very nice in the temple. Devotee: Every day. Prabhupāda: He's a very good man. Everyone who will come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become good man, even he's a bad man. (laughs) That is the influence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair gunaiḥ tatra samāsate suraḥ ( SB 5.18.12). All godly qualities will develop in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the test. Now, our students, nobody can compare with their behavior, with their character, with their innocence. Everything nicest. So don't worry. Simply go on chanting. Everything will be all right. Don't worry. Jadurāṇī: Sometimes I get concerned about temple affairs. Prabhupāda: You . . . that's all right. For the time being you don't touch. You chant, and everything will be . . . soon you will be in good health. Then you will again work. Yes. Śāradīyā, you are painting? No. All right, you finish your school. You are going to school? Śāradīyā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. You are painting? That's nice. You? That's nice. Practice painting nicely. We'll require so many pictures. We shall publish so many pictures, book. (to another devotee) You are not painting. You have no time to paint. You have got enough engagement. So you can . . . so long you are here, you just show how to Deity worship, how you are doing that, and they will learn. Yes. She is doing that very nice. Yes. So you can, all of you, all girls, you take, how she is doing. Who is doing here temple worship? Haṁsadūta: Are you going to give some more instruction? Prabhupāda: No. This is . . . in this age temple worship is not recommended. Haṁsadūta: It's not recommended. But Deity worship is temple worship? *Prabhupāda: It is Deity worship. Because nobody can actually very nicely perform. This age is not suitable. You see? Temple worship, the regulation, the engagement—at least four, five men must always be engaged, always, twenty*-four hours. Haṁsadūta: In the temple worship. In the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. We haven't got sufficient men, neither we can arrange such a way. Besides that, your previous culture, everything is completely different. So in this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu has . . . this saṅkīrtana , Hare Kṛṣṇa, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). This is all round. But at the same time, if you can perform as far as possible, that's nice, Deity worship. In this age Deity worship is secondary. Saṅkīrtana is primary. Haṁsadūta: Does it matter who performs the Deity worship? Does it matter? I mean is it some particular person? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is called arcana*-siddhi . Haṁsadūta: Who should do it? I mean, in the temple who should do it? Prabhupāda: No, everyone should do it. Haṁsadūta: Everyone should take part. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should learn. Everyone should learn. Sometimes somebody is doing something, somebody is doing something. Yes, like that. Everyone should be expert in every respect, twenty*-six qualification. (car sound outside) You have got car here? No. Nobody has got car amongst our disciples? Jadurāṇī: No. Himavatī: Do you need a car, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: No, because the temple is here, just in front. So what is the use of car? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, I found a place very likely for a new temple. And I've gone so far as . . . the lawyer even drew up a lease. So maybe tomorrow you could look at it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. What is the description? Satsvarūpa: Very excellent location, right downtown. The things wrong with it is that the temple area is no bigger than the temple area we have now, but the location is just the greatest. Second floor. Still, right downtown. Prabhupāda: Second floor. So what is the rent? *Satsvarūpa: Three hundred a month. But we can do it as long as . . . presently, Patita*-pāvana is working and so am I, and sometimes the gopīs get some money. So we wouldn't have any problem as long as Patita-pāvana would continue to work. Prabhupāda: All right, Kṛṣṇa will solve the problems. But the space is not lesser than this temple? Satsvarūpa: Well, the temple room is maybe even smaller than the present temple room, but then there's another large, very large room for a kitchen, and then another space for where bunks could be for sleeping. So there's actually three different spaces. The thing is that the main temple hall is not too large. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That doesn't matter. You have to take saṅkīrtana party. That should be the main business. And the . . . at least sixteen men, four mṛdaṅgas . Practice mṛdaṅga like that. And twelve cymbals, and one chanting and all other responding. Oh, it will be tremendous. Take some flags, "ISKCON", “Hare Kṛṣṇa" flag, red flag. You see? And conchshell, mṛdaṅga . In New York they are doing now, and they also one day collected 240 dollars or something like that. What is that? *Puruṣottama: Two hundred and forty*-seven. *Prabhupāda: Two hundred and forty*-seven. You see? (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: I'll try in Montreal. We have new devotees now, lot of new boys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, you will get devotees. You just begin saṅkīrtana party, you will get many devotees. You see? In Los Angeles, daily the devotees, new devotees, are coming, and very nice boys. We are now searching after a bigger place. Yes. That temple is not sufficient, although that is the biggest center of all our centers. It has got compound. *It has got parking place. It has got two big halls, one big room, one big kitchen, and three, four, five small rooms. It is a nice situation, you see, just suitable for our purpose. And they decorate Jagannātha very nicely. Yes. So increase centers. And what is the name of the boy who went to . . . Nanda*-kiśora. He wants to open Toronto? Haṁsadūta: In Toronto. Toronto is a very good place to go. Prabhupāda: So let him open. Haṁsadūta: Let him go? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Okay. But not alone. He needs someone else, I think. He needs one more boy. I don't think by himself he can do it. Prabhupāda: That we shall arrange, somebody to go. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Maybe you remember Mr. Saini in Montreal? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Well, he approached me just recently. He wants to open a store, Indian store and goods, and he wants the boys in the temple to work there. He wants to make some arrangement so the temple will get some money. Prabhupāda: He is very cunning man. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know. I don't trust him at all. So maybe I shouldn't . . . Prabhupāda: He wants to utilize our men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Don't deal with him, right? That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: He wants a cheap, cheap price. (break) I don't believe all these things they have . . . they have come here to beg, to make money. You see? Their mentality cannot be good. Haṁsadūta: I have another plea from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is a good boy. Haṁsadūta: Oh, he's very nice. Oh, he's getting so nice. He wants to come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because he is serving. Himavatī: He lives in our house now. Haṁsadūta: He lives with us now. You know we have another house, the whole house, and almost everyone now is a devotee there. And they're eating prasādam . He lives there. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is very nice boy. You give him good protection, and he will turn very good help. Sevonmukhe . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be, I mean to say, appreciated only by service. There is no other . . . no other way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Brs. 1.2.234). You cannot catch Kṛṣṇa by any way — by your riches, by your beauty, by your . . . because He excels everything. How you can make Him under your control? You can simply make Him under your control by service, like the gopīs did. Yes. What is this? Prasāda ? Oh, I think I cannot take any. All right, I shall take some. Satsvarūpa: The devotees have prasādam over at the temple that's ready. Prabhupāda: Oh, they can take. They can go. (end) Conversation -- September 8, 1969, Hamburg Prabhupāda: . . . vedic civilization, unless one is inquisitive for the solution of the problems, he is not on the human being standard. Because there are so many problems. The animals cannot inquire, but a man can inquire. So unless one comes to this point, to inquire how these problems can be solved, he's not developed to human consciousness. He's still in animal consciousness. Actually, the problem is that . . . what is this human civilization, advanced civilization? They are trying to solve problems. One problem is presented, and they try to solve it. Just like at the present moment they have manufacture atomic bomb, and all the nations are anxious to keep peace, and they have started that United Nation organization to solve the problems. Although they are unable, but they are trying. So advancement of civilization means by nature some problem is offered, and they are trying to solve it. Anything you take, it is an attempt for trying to solve the problem. Just like in your country there is subway. What is that subway? Because on the surface there is enormous traffic, to solve this problem they want to go underground. And in this way somebody thinks, "Oh, Western countries are advanced than the Eastern countries. They have made some solution." But after that, there is another problem. So problem after problem. *So what is the ultimate problem? The ultimate problem is we do not want to suffer. That's all. We want comfortable, peaceful life. This is the ultimate problem. Is it not? Just think over. That is . . . in Sanskrit language it is called ātyantika*-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ . Ātyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ , to solve the problems of miseries. *We don't want any kind of misery. We don't want to suffer. We want very peaceful and joyful life. That is . . . but that is not being possible within this material world. That is the problem. The living entity is, by nature, he wants joyful life . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Abhyāsāt . Abhyāsāt means by natural tendency he wants joyful life. But . . . there is a song, Bengali song. A poet writes, sukhera lāgiyā ei ghara bandhila anale puriya gelā : "I constructed my home to live very peacefully and comfortably. All of a sudden, there was set fire, and everything vanquished." Just like in America you have got experience that Mr. Kennedy, he became president after long struggle. He had very nice wife, children, honor, prestige, everything. And somebody was saying, telling me yesterday, that people took him as very happy man. Within a second, all finished. He was driving, he was in procession, people were honoring him, and within a second—finished. So everyone is trying to be very happy, comfortable, but it is being finished within a second. Is it not a fact? Huh? Is there any disagreement on this point? That is the problem. Everyone is trying to solve this problem in his own way. They are manufacturing different ways only, but the problem is not solved. The problem is there. *Here (there) in America, whenever I meet some gentleman in the street and he understands that I am coming from India, he says: "Oh, India is very poverty*-stricken." You see? So . . . as if there is no problem in America. There is one problem: food scarcity. But I tell him that "You have got also many problems. You are not problem-free." So there is . . . suppose you have got some pain here. Sometimes we think that, "If pain would have been here, then it would have been nice. Here it is very painful." So pain, here or there, it is pain. You see? So either you have got problem of food grains or problem of hippies, but the problem is there. A different feature only. Therefore one should be very much careful to know how to solve the problem. Actually, we are trying. We are trying to advance in education, in scientific knowledge. In so many things we are trying. The material nature is offering problems after problems. That is the nature's business. You solve one problem, and she'll present another problem. First of all, one . . . somebody thought, "If there is aeroplane, then it will be very nice to travel in the space." But now the problem is that by aeroplane, if there is enmity, another country can face my country without any fight. So another problem. (laughs) Now they have to go underground. I was reading in the World Almanac that next hundred years people will live underground. You have read that? That World Almanac ? Śivānanda: This is taking place in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śivānanda: This is taking place in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Just see. They will come on the surface just to breathe little freely. Otherwise, they will have to live within underground. So another problem is coming. (chuckles) Intelligent persons should think of how this ultimate problem can be solved. *So what will be the answer? How ultimate problem can be solved? The problem is there, you agree, everyone? Or you have disagreement, there is no problem. You think there is no problem? Eh? Problem there is, you think? So how to solve it? They have tried their utmost. It is not solved. Then what is the solution? That solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Seventh Chapter. Where is Bhagavad-gītā ? Is there? No Bhagavad-gītā here? Devotee (1): I have one in my case. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give me my spectacle. Behind that, there is small book. Just up. Yes. Give me that. Alfred: May I take some pictures tonight? Prabhupāda: Just open . . . Hayagrīva, you can come here. Sit down here. Seventh Chapter, fourteenth verse. Hayagrīva: (reading) "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material . . ." Prabhupāda: Fourteen? That is fourteen? Hayagrīva: 7.14? Prabhupāda: Seventh Chapter, fourteenth verse. Hayagrīva: Fourteenth verse. "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: This is the solution. This material nature . . . what is that? Read it again. Hayagrīva: "This divine energy . . . this divine energy of Mine . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. This material nature is another energy of Kṛṣṇa, or God. So the energy is very strong. It is very difficult to surpass the problems put forward by the material energy. What is the exact language? Hayagrīva: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome." Prabhupāda: "Is difficult to overcome." There are three modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. But they are very difficult to overcome. And now, what is the solution? Hayagrīva: "But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Yes. The solution is we have to surrender unto the Supreme. Just like if you are arrested by the police, then it is very difficult to get out of their clutches. But if you are a good citizen, surrendered soul to the state, there is no problem; the police has nothing to do with you. Is it very difficult to understand? The problems are there, and the problems are under the management of this material nature. So it is not possible to overcome the stringent laws of material nature, exactly like if you are once arrested by the police department, it is not very easy to come out. So mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te ( BG 7.14). So if you want to get out of these clutches of material nature, which is putting forward problems after problem, then you have to become a surrendered soul, or Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, material nature is so strong, you think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually that is not solved. You create another problem. So is there any other method for solving the problems? Anyone can suggest? The ultimate problem is, of course, death. Nobody wants to die. Even one is very old man, older than me, and his body is not working, he's invalid, he cannot walk even, lying on the bed—still, he wants to live. If some suffering old man, from many diseases, invalid person, if you say: "My dear father, grandfather, you are so much suffering. Let me shoot you," "Oh, no, no, no. Don't shoot me." He doesn't want to die. So death is a problem. Nobody wants to die, but death comes and captures him, just like President Kennedy, within a second (snaps finger) "Leave this position." Forced. Submit. "Yes. What can I do?" No scientific advancement of knowledge. *Of course, this is also another science, Kṛṣṇa science. But we understand scientific knowledge, this material scientists . . . material science. They are also trying. The Russians sometimes say that, "Time will come when science will solve the problem of death. Nobody will die." Let them think like that, but it is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *One who is actually learned, advanced in knowledge, he should know that these four things: the miseries of taking birth . . . the misery of taking birth means we have to take . . . we have to appear . . . after this body is finished, we have to take another body. How this body is constructed, developed? In the womb of the mother. The father gives the semina with the living entity within, and mother receives it and develops it, body. This is nature's law. So you have to live within the mother, compact, air*-tight packed, for ten months at least. *Just imagine if you are packed in a bag and put in a air*-tight compartment, locked up, would you like? You'll die within three seconds. But the arrangement is so nice, by nature's law, the intestine, that the child lives with the mother's breathing, mother's fooding. Even unconscious, his development of the body goes on. That is nature's arrangement. But you cannot do that. It is by God's grace the child lives. Otherwise, by your so-called scientific calculation, nobody can live in that condition. You just try it. Take any man, pack him, and put it in the air-tight condition. He'll die within three seconds. So there is suffering during birth. Similarly, there is suffering during death. These are . . . and the concomitant sufferings always with this body. Similarly, there is suffering if you are diseased, and similarly there is suffering when you are old. Just like we are old, and some way or other, keeping this body by massaging, by taking some medicine, this way, that way. This body is no longer just like a young man's body. It is suffering body. *As soon as you are over fifty years, by nature, so the old age begins. And when you are over seventy years, you are completely old, and you have to suffer the consequences of old age. You may try to keep that old body some . . . but there is suffering. A young man cannot understand, but one who is old, he can understand, there is suffering: suffering of old age, suffering of birth, suffering of death and suffering of diseases. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are proud of your advancement of knowledge, that we have solved all the questions, all the problems, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "Don't think like that. That is your foolishness. These problems are there. What you can do?" That is learning, "Yes. Problems are not solved. The problems are there." That is knowledge. If you have got some problem, and . . . just like the rabbits. The rabbits, when they face one hunter and it understands that, "Now my life is in danger," he closes his eyes. He thinks that, "The problem is solved." (laughs) And peacefully he is killed. (laughs) You see? Similarly, their problems are there but we are closing our eyes, "Oh, there is no problem. We are very happy." So this is called māyā . The problem is not solved, but they are thinking that problem is solved by closing the eyes. That's all. *Now, here is the solution of problem, as Kṛṣṇa says in the fourteenth verse, Seventh Chapter, of Bhagavad*-gītā : "It is very difficult to surmount the problems offered by the laws of material nature, but one who surrenders unto Me, he overcomes." Therefore we are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to solve the problems of life. It is not sentiment or fanaticism or any sectarian religion. It is a fact that if you want to solve the problems of life, you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other alternative. *Kṛṣṇa*-nāma karo bhāi āra saba mithyā . You understand Bengali? (chuckles) It says that, "Just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything is false, all other means of making some . . . false." Why? Palāibe patha naya ya mache kichu . "You cannot escape. Just death is waiting behind you." So before death overcomes you, you make a solution of the problem. That is intelligence, that "The greatest danger is awaiting me—death." That is sure. "As sure as death." Everyone knows. Now, how we shall meet death? Like cats and dogs? Then what is the use of this human form of life? The cats and dogs, they have got body. They have also will meet death. And I have got body; *I will also meet death. So am I meant for meeting death like cats and dogs? Then what kind of human form . . . human being I am? No. The śāstra says that labdhvā su*-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte (SB 11.9.29). After many, many evolution of different kinds of body . . . you understand the evolutionary theory. It is not exactly like Darwin's theory, but this evolutionary process is there. That is admitted in Vedic literature—from lower grade of animal life to the higher grade of animal life. So this human form of life is to be understood. We have got this human form of life after many, many lower grades of life. Labdhvā su-durlabham . And it's very rare. You count, those who are biologists, you count how many kinds of living entities are there. There are 8,400,000's of species of life. Out of that, the human being are very small quantity. Out of 8,400,000, the human species of life are 400,000; compared with other animals, a very small quantity. *Out of that, there are uncivilized men, many. They are almost animals. Then there is civilized form of human being, just like we are. Out of them, they do not know . . . many, they do not know what is spiritual life. Manuṣyāṇām . That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). Out of many thousands of human being, one is interested to make a solution of the problems. Not everyone. Everyone, they do not know even that what is the problem. Neither they do care for it. They think, "All right, let there be problem. We have got this life. Let us enjoy senses." So they are almost animal. But those who are inquisitive how to solve the problem, they are actually accepted as human being. Others, they are not even human being; they are almost animals. So we have got this opportunity. This body should be utilized properly, how to solve the problem. If we simply give ourself in the waves of the cycle of birth and death, of different types of body, that is not very good intelligence. Not intelligence at all. So this human form of life should be utilized how to make solution of the problems. That is Vedic civilization. They stressed more on the solution of the problems . . . (break) . . . create problems. The materialistic way of life means to increase and create problems. That is not perfect human civilization. The perfect human civilization is that you have to sit very calmly quietly and philosophically think, "How to solve the problem? Where I shall get the knowledge?" This is human possible. The whole Vedic instruction is like that: "Now you utilize this form of life to make a solution of this problem. Don't die . . . before death comes, you make a solution. Don't die like cats and dogs." No. And one who tries . . . the Veda says, etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ : "One who dies after attempting to make a solution of the problems, he is brahmin ." And one who dies like cats and dog, he is called kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa means a very less intelligent man. So we should not die like cats and dog. We should die like brahmin . Even in one life this solution is not made, then you get next life opportunity. Just like all these boys who have come to us, it is to be understood that they tried in their last life also for making a solution of this problem, but it was not finished; *there is another opportunity. These things are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So now, this life, you should be determined. Those who are coming to the touch of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and initiated to execute, they should be very determined that, "In this life we shall make a solution. No more . . . no more coming again." That should be our determination. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for this purpose—to make a solution to all the problems of life and go back to home, back to Godhead, where we get eternal, blissful life of knowledge. This is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What do you think, our Australian friend? What is your name? Alfred: Alfred. Prabhupāda: Alfred? Alfred: Alfred. Prabhupāda: Humphrey? Devotee: No, no, no. Alfred: Alfred. Yes. Prabhupāda: Alfred. Devotee: He's from Austria. Prabhupāda: So, very good. So you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and just start a center in your country. Alfred: No, there is no center. Prabhupāda: No chance? Alfred: Well, we can start one. Lady devotee: We can start one. We can start a center. Alfred: Yes, maybe, maybe. Prabhupāda: Why not? There are also human being. Why not? Let . . . people are suffering. Let them have this knowledge and be happy. Our proposal is sarve sukhino bhavantu . That is Vedic civilization: "You all be happy." The Vedic civilization is not "Oh, here is very nice boy. Oh, you have got money. Let me exploit you and bluff you and take your money." That is not Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization is to think, "Oh, let everyone be happy." Sarve sukhino bhavantu : "Everyone be happy." So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness cult. It is not a cult; *it is an actual, the fact for solving all problems. People should know. And if he is intelligent, he'll accept it. If he's intelligent. Because kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura . Without being very intelligent, nobody can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not possible. Less intelligent persons cannot do it. It is meant for the first*-class intelligent man. (pause) (aside) Ārati ? Later on. English boy (2): Is it possible for one to make it in this life? This one . . .? Is it possible that one falls down? *Prabhupāda: It is possible in one second, provided you are serious. It is not difficult. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "After many, many births, one . . . when one is intelligent, wise, fully grown, wise, he surrenders unto Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So if I am intelligent, then I will see that, "If that is the goal of life, that after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not myself surrender immediately?" This is intelligence. If this is a fact, that one has to come to this point after cultivating knowledge for many, many births, then why not accept it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births if this is a fact? *So that requires little intelligence. It does not require many, many births. It requires little intelligence. Take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, your problems are solved. Now, if you don't believe in it, then come to argument, come to philosophy, come to reason. Go on arguing. There are volumes of books. You can be convinced. You can learn it. The every answer is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . You can try to understand it with your reason, with your argument. It is open. *Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was taught Bhagavad*-gītā , how much time? Utmost, within half an hour. Because he was very intelligent. This Bhagavad-gītā , the people of the world are reading. Very, very learned scholar, wise men, they are reading. They are trying to understand, giving different interpretation. And there are thousands of edition, commentary. But Arjuna was intelligent; he understood it within half an hour. So it requires of the relative intelligence. Everything . . . this world is relative. Law of relativity. That is scientific. Professor Einstein's theory? Law of relativity? So it is relatively. One can become immediately Kṛṣṇa conscious within a second, and one cannot become Kṛṣṇa consciousness after many, many births. So it is relative. If you have got sufficient intelligence, you can accept it immediately. If there is less intelligence, then it will take time. You cannot say that, "It will be possible after so many years." That cannot be said. It is relative. Everything is relative. For a human being, from here to here, one step; and for a small microbe, it is ten miles from here to here. Ten miles for him. So everything is relative. This world is relative world. There is no such formula that, "One can be Kṛṣṇa conscious after so many years." No. There is no such formula. One cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious even millions after . . . birth, and one can become within second Kṛṣṇa conscious. But on the average, within this life we can become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if we take it seriously. Especially you are all young boys. We expect at least you'll live for fifty years more. Oh, that is sufficient time. Sufficient. More than sufficient. More than sufficient. If for fifty years one chants simply Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is sure to become perfect. There is no doubt about it. Simply if he chants this mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa, oh, there is no doubt about it. Guest (3): I had a question. Whose choice is it? In other words, you said it takes an intelligent person to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but it's obvious that (there) are not so many intelligent people. Whose choice is it? In other words, if a person isn't intelligent, is it because he wants to enjoy that makes him ignorant? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Or is it because he just has to wait until he is . . . *Prabhupāda: It is his choice. Just like if somebody offers you one million dollars, "Take it," you do not know what is the value of one million dollar, you will refuse it. So little intelligence. So the choice is yours. In all the case, the choice is yours. If you know the value, instantly you accept it. If you do not know the value, then it will take time. But after all, the choice is depending on you to accept it or not accept it. It is your choice. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gītā . After instructing him, He inquires, "Whether your illusion is now over? What you decide to do now?" He said: "Yes, my illusion is over. I will act what You say." That's all. The choice is mine. Alfred: I know so many people, young people, that when they see us chanting on the street, I can see their eyes that they really want to chant also, but something is stopping them. They really . . . *Prabhupāda: That is māyā . Māyā is there. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "The māyā is very strong." But if you capture Kṛṣṇa very . . . more strongly, then māyā cannot do anything. If something is opposing your chanting, then you'll have to chant more loudly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So you defeat māyā . The medicine is the same. At least, I do so. When I am in some danger, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa loudly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ (laughter) Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That's all. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . there is song: jāy sakal bipod gaya bhaktivinod bole jakhon o*-nām gāi (from Gītāvalī ). He says: "As soon as I chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, I become immediately free from all dangers." So the means is there. We have to utilize it. That requires intelligence. So my request to you all boys, that you try to understand and . . . you understand or not understand, it is a standard method. Try to induce people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They will be happy. They will get the . . . real thing will be delivered to them. That is a fact. So such a simple method and such sublime gain, so why one should lose this opportunity? There is no loss, but the gain is very great. So why should we all lose this opportunity? Let us make an experiment, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And those who are making, those who are chanting, they are being convinced, they are being advanced. They are realizing. Otherwise . . . they are not wasting time. Here is a boy, he is postgraduate. He is teacher. So he's not a fool. So why he's sticking, unless he's feeling that, "Yes, I am advancing"? So anyone who will take to it, he will understand, yes, he is advancing. It may take little more time or quickly; that doesn't matter. But he will feel it. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam (BG 9.2). Just like you are suffering, you are hungry. If actually nutritious foodstuff is given to you, when you eat, you understand, "Yes, I am getting strength. My hunger is being satisfied." This is also like that. If you take to chanting, you will feel, "Yes, I am getting strength. My misgivings are being moved." In this way you go on, go on, go on, the perfect stage will come. It may take little more time or it may come quickly. That depends on my relative endeavor. But it will come. Be sure. And with this faith and conviction and understanding, you make progress. Everything will be all right. But don't be misled that, "There is no problem of life; *we are very happy, eating, sleeping, mating." This is animal life. There is so many great problems. Very great problems. This birth, death, old age, disease and repeated . . . bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once manifested, again non*-manifested; *again manifested, again non*-manifested. This body is manifested; now it will be finished. Again we will have to take shelter of a mother's womb by such a process, maybe human being or other than human being. Then another body manifested. Then again finished, then again manifested. So it is . . . this is very troublesome business. (laughs) So why should we accept this troublesome business? Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). *This body is changing. Just remember your childhood: oh, how much troublesome life we have undergone in our . . . at least I can remember. Everyone can remember. So stop this problem. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). And what is the difficulty? You do your own work and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't say that you stop your business, stop your occupation. You remain. Just like he is teacher. All right, he is teacher. He is jeweler. Remain jeweler. He's something, he's something. That doesn't matter. But be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Think of Kṛṣṇa. Take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Everything is there. And be happy. That is our propaganda. You learn yourself, and preach this cult. People will be happy. Simple method. Prabhupāda: Viśvanātha Prabhu, you understand English? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: You stay with your son? Woman: No. I am visting him for a few weeks. Prabhupāda: So why don't you stay here and join your son for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because your son is so good, you must be good. Because a son cannot be good unless the mother is good, because son inherits the mother's quality. That is nature. This Hayagrīva's mother wrote me first one letter of congratulations, and she came also to see me in New Vrindaban, his father and mother. Especially his mother is very happy. So, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will produce good father and mother, and therefore they will have good children, and there will be no problem in the world. If everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . not everyone; *even ten percent people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will be no problem. Problem is created due to bad children. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : varṇa-saṅkara (BG 1.42). So if there are good children, there is no problem. Even in this material world, everything will become happy. *The basic principle of Vedic civilization is to create good children. All the rules and regulation, everything is there just to create good children. In the first chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā these things are described very nicely by Arjuna. There are many purificatory processes to create a good child. A human being is not meant for creating offspring like cats and dogs. They must produce very good child. That is Vedic civilization. Good child means Kṛṣṇa conscious child. That's all. Yes. So we are trying to turn these children of the Western world, good children. And people should cooperate with us, this movement. They are taking care of the children, especially young boys and girls they are coming, and we are taking care of them very nicely. Sometimes we are getting them married also, to make their life very peaceful and intelligent and spiritually advanced, and make a solution of life. So people should come forward to cooperate with this movement. (pause) How many children you have got? Woman: Two boys. Prabhupāda: Two? Woman: And other one. Prabhupāda: Other. He is eldest? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? Woman: Ah. The other one is in Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada? In Vancouver? No. Devotee: No. In Calgary. Prabhupāda: So is there any other process in making solution. Hayagrīva? You are biased. Hayagrīva: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You suggest that, "Here is another solution. Why we should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" No. There is no other. You have got any suggestion, any other method? No. Then why don't you take to it and preach? What is the difficulty? You don't like to take it? Maṇḍalībhadra your friend he doesn't like? Ask him. If it is good you must take it. That is intelligence. Should not reject anything good especially Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Very nice verse. He instructs that, "If you can purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness from any market, any store, please immediately buy it." Then next question is, "Then what is the price? What shall I have to pay for it?" And Rūpa Gosvāmī says: "Oh, the price is simply eagerness." Tatra laulyam . "Yes, I must have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the price, that's all. But that Laulyam , that eagerness, is not achieved even after many, many births. That is the price. Therefore it requires a little intelligence. "Oh, such a valuable thing? I can purchase only by eagerness? Why not become eager immediately?" That is intelligence. You are German or Australian or American? Guest: I am English. Prabhupāda: Oh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . from England. He is chanting on the record too. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are living in our temple, no? What is your name? Guest: Jimmy Prabhupāda: So you are initiated, no? You are initiated, no? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not yet. Some boy got initiated. Three boys. Guest: Three yes. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Here? (break) Guest: When did I come? This evening. Prabhupāda: This evening. Oh? Very nice. So we are going to London . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 8, 1969, Hamburg Prabhupāda: . . . vedic civilization, unless one is inquisitive for the solution of the problems, he is not on the human being standard. Because there are so many problems. The animals cannot inquire, but a man can inquire. So unless one comes to this point, to inquire how these problems can be solved, he's not developed to human consciousness. He's still in animal consciousness. Actually, the problem is that . . . what is this human civilization, advanced civilization? They are trying to solve problems. One problem is presented, and they try to solve it. Just like at the present moment they have manufacture atomic bomb, and all the nations are anxious to keep peace, and they have started that United Nation organization to solve the problems. Although they are unable, but they are trying. So advancement of civilization means by nature some problem is offered, and they are trying to solve it. Anything you take, it is an attempt for trying to solve the problem. Just like in your country there is subway. What is that subway? Because on the surface there is enormous traffic, to solve this problem they want to go underground. And in this way somebody thinks, "Oh, Western countries are advanced than the Eastern countries. They have made some solution." But after that, there is another problem. So problem after problem. *So what is the ultimate problem? The ultimate problem is we do not want to suffer. That's all. We want comfortable, peaceful life. This is the ultimate problem. Is it not? Just think over. That is . . . in Sanskrit language it is called ātyantika*-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ . Ātyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ , to solve the problems of miseries. *We don't want any kind of misery. We don't want to suffer. We want very peaceful and joyful life. That is . . . but that is not being possible within this material world. That is the problem. The living entity is, by nature, he wants joyful life . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Abhyāsāt . Abhyāsāt means by natural tendency he wants joyful life. But . . . there is a song, Bengali song. A poet writes, sukhera lāgiyā ei ghara bandhila anale puriya gelā : "I constructed my home to live very peacefully and comfortably. All of a sudden, there was set fire, and everything vanquished." Just like in America you have got experience that Mr. Kennedy, he became president after long struggle. He had very nice wife, children, honor, prestige, everything. And somebody was saying, telling me yesterday, that people took him as very happy man. Within a second, all finished. He was driving, he was in procession, people were honoring him, and within a second—finished. So everyone is trying to be very happy, comfortable, but it is being finished within a second. Is it not a fact? Huh? Is there any disagreement on this point? That is the problem. Everyone is trying to solve this problem in his own way. They are manufacturing different ways only, but the problem is not solved. The problem is there. *Here (there) in America, whenever I meet some gentleman in the street and he understands that I am coming from India, he says: "Oh, India is very poverty*-stricken." You see? So . . . as if there is no problem in America. There is one problem: food scarcity. But I tell him that "You have got also many problems. You are not problem-free." So there is . . . suppose you have got some pain here. Sometimes we think that, "If pain would have been here, then it would have been nice. Here it is very painful." So pain, here or there, it is pain. You see? So either you have got problem of food grains or problem of hippies, but the problem is there. A different feature only. Therefore one should be very much careful to know how to solve the problem. Actually, we are trying. We are trying to advance in education, in scientific knowledge. In so many things we are trying. The material nature is offering problems after problems. That is the nature's business. You solve one problem, and she'll present another problem. First of all, one . . . somebody thought, "If there is aeroplane, then it will be very nice to travel in the space." But now the problem is that by aeroplane, if there is enmity, another country can face my country without any fight. So another problem. (laughs) Now they have to go underground. I was reading in the World Almanac that next hundred years people will live underground. You have read that? That World Almanac ? Śivānanda: This is taking place in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śivānanda: This is taking place in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Just see. They will come on the surface just to breathe little freely. Otherwise, they will have to live within underground. So another problem is coming. (chuckles) Intelligent persons should think of how this ultimate problem can be solved. *So what will be the answer? How ultimate problem can be solved? The problem is there, you agree, everyone? Or you have disagreement, there is no problem. You think there is no problem? Eh? Problem there is, you think? So how to solve it? They have tried their utmost. It is not solved. Then what is the solution? That solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Seventh Chapter. Where is Bhagavad-gītā ? Is there? No Bhagavad-gītā here? Devotee (1): I have one in my case. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give me my spectacle. Behind that, there is small book. Just up. Yes. Give me that. Alfred: May I take some pictures tonight? Prabhupāda: Just open . . . Hayagrīva, you can come here. Sit down here. Seventh Chapter, fourteenth verse. Hayagrīva: (reading) "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material . . ." Prabhupāda: Fourteen? That is fourteen? Hayagrīva: 7.14? Prabhupāda: Seventh Chapter, fourteenth verse. Hayagrīva: Fourteenth verse. "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: This is the solution. This material nature . . . what is that? Read it again. Hayagrīva: "This divine energy . . . this divine energy of Mine . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. This material nature is another energy of Kṛṣṇa, or God. So the energy is very strong. It is very difficult to surpass the problems put forward by the material energy. What is the exact language? Hayagrīva: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome." Prabhupāda: "Is difficult to overcome." There are three modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. But they are very difficult to overcome. And now, what is the solution? Hayagrīva: "But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Yes. The solution is we have to surrender unto the Supreme. Just like if you are arrested by the police, then it is very difficult to get out of their clutches. But if you are a good citizen, surrendered soul to the state, there is no problem; the police has nothing to do with you. Is it very difficult to understand? The problems are there, and the problems are under the management of this material nature. So it is not possible to overcome the stringent laws of material nature, exactly like if you are once arrested by the police department, it is not very easy to come out. So mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te ( BG 7.14). So if you want to get out of these clutches of material nature, which is putting forward problems after problem, then you have to become a surrendered soul, or Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, material nature is so strong, you think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually that is not solved. You create another problem. So is there any other method for solving the problems? Anyone can suggest? The ultimate problem is, of course, death. Nobody wants to die. Even one is very old man, older than me, and his body is not working, he's invalid, he cannot walk even, lying on the bed—still, he wants to live. If some suffering old man, from many diseases, invalid person, if you say: "My dear father, grandfather, you are so much suffering. Let me shoot you," "Oh, no, no, no. Don't shoot me." He doesn't want to die. So death is a problem. Nobody wants to die, but death comes and captures him, just like President Kennedy, within a second (snaps finger) "Leave this position." Forced. Submit. "Yes. What can I do?" No scientific advancement of knowledge. *Of course, this is also another science, Kṛṣṇa science. But we understand scientific knowledge, this material scientists . . . material science. They are also trying. The Russians sometimes say that, "Time will come when science will solve the problem of death. Nobody will die." Let them think like that, but it is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *One who is actually learned, advanced in knowledge, he should know that these four things: the miseries of taking birth . . . the misery of taking birth means we have to take . . . we have to appear . . . after this body is finished, we have to take another body. How this body is constructed, developed? In the womb of the mother. The father gives the semina with the living entity within, and mother receives it and develops it, body. This is nature's law. So you have to live within the mother, compact, air*-tight packed, for ten months at least. *Just imagine if you are packed in a bag and put in a air*-tight compartment, locked up, would you like? You'll die within three seconds. But the arrangement is so nice, by nature's law, the intestine, that the child lives with the mother's breathing, mother's fooding. Even unconscious, his development of the body goes on. That is nature's arrangement. But you cannot do that. It is by God's grace the child lives. Otherwise, by your so-called scientific calculation, nobody can live in that condition. You just try it. Take any man, pack him, and put it in the air-tight condition. He'll die within three seconds. So there is suffering during birth. Similarly, there is suffering during death. These are . . . and the concomitant sufferings always with this body. Similarly, there is suffering if you are diseased, and similarly there is suffering when you are old. Just like we are old, and some way or other, keeping this body by massaging, by taking some medicine, this way, that way. This body is no longer just like a young man's body. It is suffering body. *As soon as you are over fifty years, by nature, so the old age begins. And when you are over seventy years, you are completely old, and you have to suffer the consequences of old age. You may try to keep that old body some . . . but there is suffering. A young man cannot understand, but one who is old, he can understand, there is suffering: suffering of old age, suffering of birth, suffering of death and suffering of diseases. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are proud of your advancement of knowledge, that we have solved all the questions, all the problems, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "Don't think like that. That is your foolishness. These problems are there. What you can do?" That is learning, "Yes. Problems are not solved. The problems are there." That is knowledge. If you have got some problem, and . . . just like the rabbits. The rabbits, when they face one hunter and it understands that, "Now my life is in danger," he closes his eyes. He thinks that, "The problem is solved." (laughs) And peacefully he is killed. (laughs) You see? Similarly, their problems are there but we are closing our eyes, "Oh, there is no problem. We are very happy." So this is called māyā . The problem is not solved, but they are thinking that problem is solved by closing the eyes. That's all. *Now, here is the solution of problem, as Kṛṣṇa says in the fourteenth verse, Seventh Chapter, of Bhagavad*-gītā : "It is very difficult to surmount the problems offered by the laws of material nature, but one who surrenders unto Me, he overcomes." Therefore we are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to solve the problems of life. It is not sentiment or fanaticism or any sectarian religion. It is a fact that if you want to solve the problems of life, you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other alternative. *Kṛṣṇa*-nāma karo bhāi āra saba mithyā . You understand Bengali? (chuckles) It says that, "Just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything is false, all other means of making some . . . false." Why? Palāibe patha naya ya mache kichu . "You cannot escape. Just death is waiting behind you." So before death overcomes you, you make a solution of the problem. That is intelligence, that "The greatest danger is awaiting me—death." That is sure. "As sure as death." Everyone knows. Now, how we shall meet death? Like cats and dogs? Then what is the use of this human form of life? The cats and dogs, they have got body. They have also will meet death. And I have got body; *I will also meet death. So am I meant for meeting death like cats and dogs? Then what kind of human form . . . human being I am? No. The śāstra says that labdhvā su*-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte (SB 11.9.29). After many, many evolution of different kinds of body . . . you understand the evolutionary theory. It is not exactly like Darwin's theory, but this evolutionary process is there. That is admitted in Vedic literature—from lower grade of animal life to the higher grade of animal life. So this human form of life is to be understood. We have got this human form of life after many, many lower grades of life. Labdhvā su-durlabham . And it's very rare. You count, those who are biologists, you count how many kinds of living entities are there. There are 8,400,000's of species of life. Out of that, the human being are very small quantity. Out of 8,400,000, the human species of life are 400,000; compared with other animals, a very small quantity. *Out of that, there are uncivilized men, many. They are almost animals. Then there is civilized form of human being, just like we are. Out of them, they do not know . . . many, they do not know what is spiritual life. Manuṣyāṇām . That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). Out of many thousands of human being, one is interested to make a solution of the problems. Not everyone. Everyone, they do not know even that what is the problem. Neither they do care for it. They think, "All right, let there be problem. We have got this life. Let us enjoy senses." So they are almost animal. But those who are inquisitive how to solve the problem, they are actually accepted as human being. Others, they are not even human being; they are almost animals. So we have got this opportunity. This body should be utilized properly, how to solve the problem. If we simply give ourself in the waves of the cycle of birth and death, of different types of body, that is not very good intelligence. Not intelligence at all. So this human form of life should be utilized how to make solution of the problems. That is Vedic civilization. They stressed more on the solution of the problems . . . (break) . . . create problems. The materialistic way of life means to increase and create problems. That is not perfect human civilization. The perfect human civilization is that you have to sit very calmly quietly and philosophically think, "How to solve the problem? Where I shall get the knowledge?" This is human possible. The whole Vedic instruction is like that: "Now you utilize this form of life to make a solution of this problem. Don't die . . . before death comes, you make a solution. Don't die like cats and dogs." No. And one who tries . . . the Veda says, etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ : "One who dies after attempting to make a solution of the problems, he is brahmin ." And one who dies like cats and dog, he is called kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa means a very less intelligent man. So we should not die like cats and dog. We should die like brahmin . Even in one life this solution is not made, then you get next life opportunity. Just like all these boys who have come to us, it is to be understood that they tried in their last life also for making a solution of this problem, but it was not finished; *there is another opportunity. These things are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So now, this life, you should be determined. Those who are coming to the touch of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and initiated to execute, they should be very determined that, "In this life we shall make a solution. No more . . . no more coming again." That should be our determination. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for this purpose—to make a solution to all the problems of life and go back to home, back to Godhead, where we get eternal, blissful life of knowledge. This is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What do you think, our Australian friend? What is your name? Alfred: Alfred. Prabhupāda: Alfred? Alfred: Alfred. Prabhupāda: Humphrey? Devotee: No, no, no. Alfred: Alfred. Yes. Prabhupāda: Alfred. Devotee: He's from Austria. Prabhupāda: So, very good. So you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and just start a center in your country. Alfred: No, there is no center. Prabhupāda: No chance? Alfred: Well, we can start one. Lady devotee: We can start one. We can start a center. Alfred: Yes, maybe, maybe. Prabhupāda: Why not? There are also human being. Why not? Let . . . people are suffering. Let them have this knowledge and be happy. Our proposal is sarve sukhino bhavantu . That is Vedic civilization: "You all be happy." The Vedic civilization is not "Oh, here is very nice boy. Oh, you have got money. Let me exploit you and bluff you and take your money." That is not Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization is to think, "Oh, let everyone be happy." Sarve sukhino bhavantu : "Everyone be happy." So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness cult. It is not a cult; *it is an actual, the fact for solving all problems. People should know. And if he is intelligent, he'll accept it. If he's intelligent. Because kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura . Without being very intelligent, nobody can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not possible. Less intelligent persons cannot do it. It is meant for the first*-class intelligent man. (pause) (aside) Ārati ? Later on. English boy (2): Is it possible for one to make it in this life? This one . . .? Is it possible that one falls down? *Prabhupāda: It is possible in one second, provided you are serious. It is not difficult. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "After many, many births, one . . . when one is intelligent, wise, fully grown, wise, he surrenders unto Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So if I am intelligent, then I will see that, "If that is the goal of life, that after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not myself surrender immediately?" This is intelligence. If this is a fact, that one has to come to this point after cultivating knowledge for many, many births, then why not accept it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births if this is a fact? *So that requires little intelligence. It does not require many, many births. It requires little intelligence. Take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, your problems are solved. Now, if you don't believe in it, then come to argument, come to philosophy, come to reason. Go on arguing. There are volumes of books. You can be convinced. You can learn it. The every answer is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . You can try to understand it with your reason, with your argument. It is open. *Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was taught Bhagavad*-gītā , how much time? Utmost, within half an hour. Because he was very intelligent. This Bhagavad-gītā , the people of the world are reading. Very, very learned scholar, wise men, they are reading. They are trying to understand, giving different interpretation. And there are thousands of edition, commentary. But Arjuna was intelligent; he understood it within half an hour. So it requires of the relative intelligence. Everything . . . this world is relative. Law of relativity. That is scientific. Professor Einstein's theory? Law of relativity? So it is relatively. One can become immediately Kṛṣṇa conscious within a second, and one cannot become Kṛṣṇa consciousness after many, many births. So it is relative. If you have got sufficient intelligence, you can accept it immediately. If there is less intelligence, then it will take time. You cannot say that, "It will be possible after so many years." That cannot be said. It is relative. Everything is relative. For a human being, from here to here, one step; and for a small microbe, it is ten miles from here to here. Ten miles for him. So everything is relative. This world is relative world. There is no such formula that, "One can be Kṛṣṇa conscious after so many years." No. There is no such formula. One cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious even millions after . . . birth, and one can become within second Kṛṣṇa conscious. But on the average, within this life we can become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if we take it seriously. Especially you are all young boys. We expect at least you'll live for fifty years more. Oh, that is sufficient time. Sufficient. More than sufficient. More than sufficient. If for fifty years one chants simply Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is sure to become perfect. There is no doubt about it. Simply if he chants this mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa, oh, there is no doubt about it. Guest (3): I had a question. Whose choice is it? In other words, you said it takes an intelligent person to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but it's obvious that (there) are not so many intelligent people. Whose choice is it? In other words, if a person isn't intelligent, is it because he wants to enjoy that makes him ignorant? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Or is it because he just has to wait until he is . . . *Prabhupāda: It is his choice. Just like if somebody offers you one million dollars, "Take it," you do not know what is the value of one million dollar, you will refuse it. So little intelligence. So the choice is yours. In all the case, the choice is yours. If you know the value, instantly you accept it. If you do not know the value, then it will take time. But after all, the choice is depending on you to accept it or not accept it. It is your choice. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gītā . After instructing him, He inquires, "Whether your illusion is now over? What you decide to do now?" He said: "Yes, my illusion is over. I will act what You say." That's all. The choice is mine. Alfred: I know so many people, young people, that when they see us chanting on the street, I can see their eyes that they really want to chant also, but something is stopping them. They really . . . *Prabhupāda: That is māyā . Māyā is there. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "The māyā is very strong." But if you capture Kṛṣṇa very . . . more strongly, then māyā cannot do anything. If something is opposing your chanting, then you'll have to chant more loudly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So you defeat māyā . The medicine is the same. At least, I do so. When I am in some danger, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa loudly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ (laughter) Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That's all. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . there is song: jāy sakal bipod gaya bhaktivinod bole jakhon o*-nām gāi (from Gītāvalī ). He says: "As soon as I chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, I become immediately free from all dangers." So the means is there. We have to utilize it. That requires intelligence. So my request to you all boys, that you try to understand and . . . you understand or not understand, it is a standard method. Try to induce people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They will be happy. They will get the . . . real thing will be delivered to them. That is a fact. So such a simple method and such sublime gain, so why one should lose this opportunity? There is no loss, but the gain is very great. So why should we all lose this opportunity? Let us make an experiment, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And those who are making, those who are chanting, they are being convinced, they are being advanced. They are realizing. Otherwise . . . they are not wasting time. Here is a boy, he is postgraduate. He is teacher. So he's not a fool. So why he's sticking, unless he's feeling that, "Yes, I am advancing"? So anyone who will take to it, he will understand, yes, he is advancing. It may take little more time or quickly; that doesn't matter. But he will feel it. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam (BG 9.2). Just like you are suffering, you are hungry. If actually nutritious foodstuff is given to you, when you eat, you understand, "Yes, I am getting strength. My hunger is being satisfied." This is also like that. If you take to chanting, you will feel, "Yes, I am getting strength. My misgivings are being moved." In this way you go on, go on, go on, the perfect stage will come. It may take little more time or it may come quickly. That depends on my relative endeavor. But it will come. Be sure. And with this faith and conviction and understanding, you make progress. Everything will be all right. But don't be misled that, "There is no problem of life; *we are very happy, eating, sleeping, mating." This is animal life. There is so many great problems. Very great problems. This birth, death, old age, disease and repeated . . . bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once manifested, again non*-manifested; *again manifested, again non*-manifested. This body is manifested; now it will be finished. Again we will have to take shelter of a mother's womb by such a process, maybe human being or other than human being. Then another body manifested. Then again finished, then again manifested. So it is . . . this is very troublesome business. (laughs) So why should we accept this troublesome business? Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). *This body is changing. Just remember your childhood: oh, how much troublesome life we have undergone in our . . . at least I can remember. Everyone can remember. So stop this problem. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). And what is the difficulty? You do your own work and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't say that you stop your business, stop your occupation. You remain. Just like he is teacher. All right, he is teacher. He is jeweler. Remain jeweler. He's something, he's something. That doesn't matter. But be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Think of Kṛṣṇa. Take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Everything is there. And be happy. That is our propaganda. You learn yourself, and preach this cult. People will be happy. Simple method. Prabhupāda: Viśvanātha Prabhu, you understand English? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: You stay with your son? Woman: No. I am visting him for a few weeks. Prabhupāda: So why don't you stay here and join your son for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because your son is so good, you must be good. Because a son cannot be good unless the mother is good, because son inherits the mother's quality. That is nature. This Hayagrīva's mother wrote me first one letter of congratulations, and she came also to see me in New Vrindaban, his father and mother. Especially his mother is very happy. So, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will produce good father and mother, and therefore they will have good children, and there will be no problem in the world. If everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . not everyone; *even ten percent people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will be no problem. Problem is created due to bad children. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : varṇa-saṅkara (BG 1.42). So if there are good children, there is no problem. Even in this material world, everything will become happy. *The basic principle of Vedic civilization is to create good children. All the rules and regulation, everything is there just to create good children. In the first chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā these things are described very nicely by Arjuna. There are many purificatory processes to create a good child. A human being is not meant for creating offspring like cats and dogs. They must produce very good child. That is Vedic civilization. Good child means Kṛṣṇa conscious child. That's all. Yes. So we are trying to turn these children of the Western world, good children. And people should cooperate with us, this movement. They are taking care of the children, especially young boys and girls they are coming, and we are taking care of them very nicely. Sometimes we are getting them married also, to make their life very peaceful and intelligent and spiritually advanced, and make a solution of life. So people should come forward to cooperate with this movement. (pause) How many children you have got? Woman: Two boys. Prabhupāda: Two? Woman: And other one. Prabhupāda: Other. He is eldest? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? Woman: Ah. The other one is in Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada? In Vancouver? No. Devotee: No. In Calgary. Prabhupāda: So is there any other process in making solution. Hayagrīva? You are biased. Hayagrīva: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You suggest that, "Here is another solution. Why we should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" No. There is no other. You have got any suggestion, any other method? No. Then why don't you take to it and preach? What is the difficulty? You don't like to take it? Maṇḍalībhadra your friend he doesn't like? Ask him. If it is good you must take it. That is intelligence. Should not reject anything good especially Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Very nice verse. He instructs that, "If you can purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness from any market, any store, please immediately buy it." Then next question is, "Then what is the price? What shall I have to pay for it?" And Rūpa Gosvāmī says: "Oh, the price is simply eagerness." Tatra laulyam . "Yes, I must have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the price, that's all. But that Laulyam , that eagerness, is not achieved even after many, many births. That is the price. Therefore it requires a little intelligence. "Oh, such a valuable thing? I can purchase only by eagerness? Why not become eager immediately?" That is intelligence. You are German or Australian or American? Guest: I am English. Prabhupāda: Oh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . from England. He is chanting on the record too. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are living in our temple, no? What is your name? Guest: Jimmy Prabhupāda: So you are initiated, no? You are initiated, no? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not yet. Some boy got initiated. Three boys. Guest: Three yes. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Here? (break) Guest: When did I come? This evening. Prabhupāda: This evening. Oh? Very nice. So we are going to London . . . (break) (end) Conversation - Vaisnava Calendar Description -- September 2, 1970, Calcutta *Prabhupāda: . . . Rādhāṣṭami, and birth, birthday of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. This day the function is observed by fasting up to twelve noon, and then, uh, offer prasādam to the Deity, and generally in the evening, we should hold meeting discussing the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa pastimes, especially the glories of Rādhārāṇī. Amongst the gopīs, her super-excellence . . . that is the way of observing. Rādhārāṇī's . . . fasting is up to twelve noon and after that you can take prasādam , feasting. The next important day is on the 26th, no, 12th September, 12th September, 1970 . . . the advent day of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhu. (pause) On that day there are three functions. First of all, Ekādaśi, a special Ekādaśi called Pārśvaika Ekādaśi. Then on that day, actually, Ekādaśi according to calendar, Ekādaśi was to be observed on the 11th September, but because the next day is Vāmana Dvādaśī . . . Vāmana Dvādaśī means the advent of Lord Vāmanadeva. Therefore we have fast, Ekādaśi fasting, and we observe two fastings in one day, Ekādaśi and Vāmanadeva, Vāmana Dvādaśī. The same process as we observe Ekādaśi, and the evening there should be a meeting discussing on the life and work of Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. He is one of the very important ācāryas in our sampradāya , so especially his Sandarbhas should be discussed. If there is no such book, then the following discussion may be, take place. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī was a brahmacārī , he left his home at the age of 10 to 12 years. His father and two elder uncles, they left home. His father was Vallabha, and his elder uncles, Sanātana and Rūpa, or Sākara Mallika and Dabira Khāsa. So, they were all government servants, but after meeting Caitanya Mahāprabhu they decided to retire from the service, and three of them retired. Out of that, Sanātana Gosvāmī was very important officer. The Nawab did not like his retirement so he interned him, not allowed him to go out of home. But Rūpa Gosvāmī and his younger brother, Vallabha, they left home, and they left instruction also to Sanātana Gosvāmī, that there is some money for his release, he could utilize that money. So Rūpa Gosvāmī and Vallabha left home prior to Sanātana Gosvāmī's leaving home. So, Rūpa Gosvāmī and Vallabha met Lord Caitanya at Prayāga—these things are mentioned in our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* —you can read, teachings to Sanātana Gosvāmī and Rūpa Gosvāmī and their meeting with Lord Caitanya at Allahabad, Prayāga. So this boy, Jīva Gosvāmī, when he saw that his father and uncles all left home, why he should remain at home? So he also left, and he first of all went to Benares, which is called Vārāṇasī. It is a great center for learning Sanskrit. So he finished his education in Sanskrit grammar, specifically, he was a great scholar in Sanskrit grammar. According to Vedic system, the students are first of all taught the Sanskrit grammar, because it is very difficult subject. *Usually one has to study grammar for 12 years, and when one is very much conversant with grammatical rules, he can read any literature. That means after studying grammar, the door is open for any other subject matter, just like philosophy, medicine, then military art, there are so many Vedic knowledges. Generally they read literature, the Purāṇas , the Vedāntas and śaipa , śaipa means general literature. So Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī became a great scholar in grammar and then he studied all Vedic literatures, and after that he approached his uncle Rūpa Gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana. He became a disciple of his uncle by proper initiation and remained with him. He was assisting his uncle and after hearing from him he composed very scholarly books know as Ṣaṭ*-Sandarbha . *These Ṣaṭ*-Sandarbha are recognized as the most scholarly work in the world. There is no comparison of his philosophical approach to the Vaiṣṇava school. Generally, the impersonal Brahman is discussed there, then Kṛṣṇa is discussed there, Bhāgavata is discussed there, love of Kṛṣṇa is discussed there. In this way, all subject matter, very elaborately discussed in Ṣaṭ-Sandarbha . That is his, the greatest gift (of) Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. And one of the Sandarbha thesis is Karma Sandarbha , his comments on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So Jīva Gosvāmī was so big scholar but sometimes one ordinary scholar, he approached Rūpa Gosvāmī that, "I want to discuss with you about śāstra ". Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand that this man is not a devotee, he will simply waste my time. He inquired from him, "What is your purpose of discussing with me about śāstras ? He said that, "I have discussed śāstras with many (aside) You sit down. "Big scholars and I have come victorious, so if I come victorious by discussing with you, then I will have very good fame and name." So Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand his view or his ambition that, "this man is a materialistic man, he wants some name and fame," so he told him, "All right, without discussing, if I give you certificate that I am defeated, will that do?" So, he said: "Yes, that will do." So he gave him in writing that, "I had śāstric discussion with this man, and I found myself very much inferior and defeated." So he was very glad to take that certificate, but when he was going, Jīva Gosvāmī saw, "My dear sir, what is that paper you have taken?" "No your uncle has agreed that he was defeated, so I have got this certificate, I am going." So he said: "Alright, let me see what he has written." So he gave him, and he kept that paper, and then he invited that, "You have defeated my uncle, but you can discuss with me also." So he agreed. So he was defeated. He was defeated and the matter was informed to Rūpa Gosvāmī that, "Your nephew and your disciple, Jīva Gosvāmī has defeated that learned scholar. So Rūpa Gosvāmī became a little angry superficially that, "Why did you bother? He was taking . . ." So some people say that Jīva Gosvāmī was rejected on this ground by Rūpa Gosvāmī, but that is not a fact. He was very glad that Jīva Gosvāmī defeated him, but he superficially said: "Why should you take so much trouble and bother? He might have gone with that certificate." But it is the duty of the disciple that even the spiritual master, or senior ācārya , they agree to be defeated, it is the duty of the disciple to see that his spiritual master and superior is not defeated. *That is the instruction we get from Jīva Gosvāmī's behavior. This is one of the important . . . and later on when Jīva Gosvāmī established the Rādhā*-Damodara temple in Vṛndāvana, but he had no sons because he was brahmacārī , so some of his gṛhastha devotee was entrusted with the management of the Rādhā-Damodara temple, and they are still going on by their descendants. Then next important . . . (break) . . . the next important date is 14th September, which is known as Ananta Caturdaśī, and the disappearance day of Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura, and appearance day of . . . (pause) Thirteenth September is the appearance day of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and 14th Septmeber is Ananta Caturdaśī and disappearance day of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Devotee: On the calendar here it has 14th of September Advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, the 13th September, worship of Śrī Vāmanadeva. Fifteenth of September Viśvarūpa festival. Prabhupāda: Yes, 15th September, Viśvarūpa. Devotee: Fourteenth of September, Prabhupāda: No, 15th September. Devotee: Yeah, Visvarupa, but 14th of September advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda. Prabhupāda: No, that should be 13th. Devotee: Thirteenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura 13th, and 14th Ananta Caturdaśī and Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So, this 14th September should be observed fasting, whole day. Devotee: Fourteenth is the advent of or the demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Yes Devotee: The death, I mean the disappearance Prabhupāda: Yes, but not for demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but because that is Ananta Caturdaśī Vrata, the, generally the fasting is observed till evening, up to 5 o'clock. The next day, Viśvarūpa Mahotsava, feasting. Devotee: On the 13th of September, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda's Appearance is there any special observance? *Prabhupāda: No, special observance means to discuss about the life and works of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that's all. Then 26th September, Ekādaśī. Then 10th October, Vijayā*-daśamī, appearance date of Śrīla Madhvācārya, and the victory day of Lord Rāmacandra. So there is no fasting, but in the evening we should celebrate some feasting and discuss about the life and works of Śrī Madhvācārya as well as Rāmāyaṇa incidents where Rāma and Rāvaṇa fought. The next day is Ekādaśī, that is means 11th October. Then 12th October is Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, there is no fasting, but we should have discussion of Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī happened to be the only boy of his father and his uncle. He was a very rich man's son, but he left home for Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. His life should be discussed as follows, that from the beginning he was very much detached to worldly life. So his father and mother saw that this boy is very much detached, he should be immediately married with a beautiful wife. So that was done—he was given a very nice house and beautiful wife—but still he was very much detached. So when he was a householder he met Nityānanda at Pāṇihāṭī and he prayed Lord Caitanya to take him with Him. At that time Caitanya was sannyāsī . Lord Caitanya instructed him that, "Don't be in a hurry, gradually Kṛṣṇa will give you a chance to be aloof from these worldly affairs." He was very intelligent even though he was detached from worldly affairs, but from his activities it appears that he was very intelligent also in worldly affairs. While somehow or other, for political reasons, his father and uncle were to be arrested by the minister of the then, Muslim government, and his father and uncle hided themselves to avoid the arrest. Then the agent of the Nawab, he arrested Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. So "Tell, where is your father and uncle, otherwise you shall be tortured." So he did not answer anything, but after some time when he was in arrest, he very politely presented his case to the minister, "My dear sir, I know my uncle, father and yourself, you are very intimate friends and treat each other as brothers. So sometimes there is some quarrel between brothers, that I can understand. But so far I am concerned, I am equally affectionate to my father, uncle as well as to yourself. I am also your son." In this way, when he very politely presented, the minister became very much affected, and he began to cry, "Yes, this boy is very nice." So he immediately released him and told him that, "Yes, we are brothers. Now if you settle up our disagreement that will be very nice." So he was released and he made a settlement between the minister and his father and uncle, so in that settlement he showed his worldly intelligence very nicely. He was not a, ah, less politician; his management was so nice. So that means a Vaiṣṇava is not less intelligent, he can manage anything. But that does not mean that he is attached to anything. This example we get from Śrī Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. Even in his household life he managed things very intelligently, but later on he left home. He was guarded by the watchman of his father and uncle, but he somehow or other got out of their watch . . . (indistinct) . . . and directly went to see Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and when Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw him coming to His shelter, He very much welcomed him, and He said: "Raghunātha, you have been saved by Kṛṣṇa from the hole of stool. Your father and uncle happened to be friend of my grandfather." *Lord Caitanya's grandfather was Nīlāmbara Cakravartī, and he was a very well*-known learned Brahmin , so all the big men were known to him. So this father and uncle of Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī used to call him as elder brother. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu took this opportunity that, "Your father and uncle is in brotherly relation with my grandfather. Therefore, your father and uncle happens to be my grandfather. Generally, the grandfather and the grandson, they treat themselves joking, so I can joke your father and uncle, you do not be sorry." Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not reply anything, he was very submissive. So in that connection He said that, "Your father and uncle is a worms of the stool. They are very much fond of material enjoyment, and Kṛṣṇa has saved you from that hole of stool." So in this way he criticized his father and uncle. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not reply. Then he entrusted him to His secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, for his teaching, and in this way Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was known as Svarūpa's Raghunātha. So, his father became very sorry that the boy has left home, and he has gone to Caitanya, they are mendicants, very hard life, how this boy will live? So immediately he sent some servants and 400 rupees. Four hundred rupees in those days a hundred times valuable than at the present moment. So he was sending 400 rupees regularly per month and Ragunatha Dāsa Gosvāmī was accepting them, but he was spending the money by prasāda distribution to the saintly persons of Jagannātha Purī, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was also invited, and He also used to go. But after some time, he stopped that invitation. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu inquired, "So why Raghunātha does not nowadays invite us? What is the matter? So Svarūpa Dāmodara informed Him that, "He is no more accepting the rupees sent by his father". "Oh, he has left it?" "Yes, sir." "Very nice, then how he is living?" "Now he stands on the staircase of Jagannātha temple at night, and when the pūjārīs go away they give some foodstuff, and he eats that." "Oh, that's nice." So one day Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to see how Raghunātha . . . this means Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu had good attention on Raghunātha's activities although he was entrusted to His secretary for teaching. So one day He went to that staircase, He did not find Raghunātha Dāsa there, so He inquired, "I did not find Raghunātha Dāsa there." So His secretary informed, "So he has left that also, practice." "Why? Then how he is eating?" "No, he does not go anywhere, ask anybody, but he stands on the outside of the kitchen of Jagannātha and whatever rice is thrown from the outlet of that kitchen, while the kitchen is washed, he collects some rice and eats those rice." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu became very much glad to hear that Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī is practicing so much renunciation. So all of a sudden one day He went to his room, "Raghunātha, I did not see you for so many days." Then He found out in a pot those collected rice were kept and immediately He took it, "Oh, you have got very nice rice here," and began to eat. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī immediately caught His hand, "Sir, it is not fit for Your eating." "Oh! I am eating so nice, you say it is not fit for Me?" That means Lord Caitanya encouraged him that, "Don't be discouraged that this is bad, or this is not fit. I can eat, anyone can eat." In this way Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī was elevated to a very exalted position amongst the Gosvāmīs. He is known as Dāsa Gosvāmī because he belonged to the kāyastha family and other Gosvāmīs, they belonged to Brahmin family. Therefore, in order to keep his position as subordinate to the Brahmins , he was known as Dāsa Gosvāmī. But it does not make any difference whether a Brahmin is a Gosvāmī or a non- brahmin is a Gosvāmī, he is equally respected. *This Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī later on, after Lord Caitanya's disappearance he went to Vṛndāvana to associate with the other Gosvāmīs, and he remained mostly at Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, and he passed his days at Rādhā-kuṇḍa. His tomb is there still in Rādhā-kuṇḍa and he has got established a temple, that is Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī's temple. All the Gosvāmīs established some temple, separately. That temple is also there. *(break) . . . some of the instructions that such exalted personalities used to keep regular routine vow. Another thing that is also very difficult. At Rādhā*-kuṇḍa Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not eat every day. He would eat every alternate day, or maybe after two days, he would take a little butter, say about ten grains or twenty grains, and that was his foodstuff, and the whole day and night he would engage himself in chanting, in writing books. He did not write many books, but some of his prayers are very famous. Some prayers, mostly he was engaged in chanting, and offering obeisances, circumambulating. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī's life is so glorious. This should be discussed on that day . . . (indistinct) . . . later on. Devotee: Thank you Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation - Vaisnava Calendar Description -- September 2, 1970, Calcutta *Prabhupāda: . . . Rādhāṣṭami, and birth, birthday of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. This day the function is observed by fasting up to twelve noon, and then, uh, offer prasādam to the Deity, and generally in the evening, we should hold meeting discussing the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa pastimes, especially the glories of Rādhārāṇī. Amongst the gopīs, her super-excellence . . . that is the way of observing. Rādhārāṇī's . . . fasting is up to twelve noon and after that you can take prasādam , feasting. The next important day is on the 26th, no, 12th September, 12th September, 1970 . . . the advent day of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhu. (pause) On that day there are three functions. First of all, Ekādaśi, a special Ekādaśi called Pārśvaika Ekādaśi. Then on that day, actually, Ekādaśi according to calendar, Ekādaśi was to be observed on the 11th September, but because the next day is Vāmana Dvādaśī . . . Vāmana Dvādaśī means the advent of Lord Vāmanadeva. Therefore we have fast, Ekādaśi fasting, and we observe two fastings in one day, Ekādaśi and Vāmanadeva, Vāmana Dvādaśī. The same process as we observe Ekādaśi, and the evening there should be a meeting discussing on the life and work of Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. He is one of the very important ācāryas in our sampradāya , so especially his Sandarbhas should be discussed. If there is no such book, then the following discussion may be, take place. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī was a brahmacārī , he left his home at the age of 10 to 12 years. His father and two elder uncles, they left home. His father was Vallabha, and his elder uncles, Sanātana and Rūpa, or Sākara Mallika and Dabira Khāsa. So, they were all government servants, but after meeting Caitanya Mahāprabhu they decided to retire from the service, and three of them retired. Out of that, Sanātana Gosvāmī was very important officer. The Nawab did not like his retirement so he interned him, not allowed him to go out of home. But Rūpa Gosvāmī and his younger brother, Vallabha, they left home, and they left instruction also to Sanātana Gosvāmī, that there is some money for his release, he could utilize that money. So Rūpa Gosvāmī and Vallabha left home prior to Sanātana Gosvāmī's leaving home. So, Rūpa Gosvāmī and Vallabha met Lord Caitanya at Prayāga—these things are mentioned in our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* —you can read, teachings to Sanātana Gosvāmī and Rūpa Gosvāmī and their meeting with Lord Caitanya at Allahabad, Prayāga. So this boy, Jīva Gosvāmī, when he saw that his father and uncles all left home, why he should remain at home? So he also left, and he first of all went to Benares, which is called Vārāṇasī. It is a great center for learning Sanskrit. So he finished his education in Sanskrit grammar, specifically, he was a great scholar in Sanskrit grammar. According to Vedic system, the students are first of all taught the Sanskrit grammar, because it is very difficult subject. *Usually one has to study grammar for 12 years, and when one is very much conversant with grammatical rules, he can read any literature. That means after studying grammar, the door is open for any other subject matter, just like philosophy, medicine, then military art, there are so many Vedic knowledges. Generally they read literature, the Purāṇas , the Vedāntas and śaipa , śaipa means general literature. So Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī became a great scholar in grammar and then he studied all Vedic literatures, and after that he approached his uncle Rūpa Gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana. He became a disciple of his uncle by proper initiation and remained with him. He was assisting his uncle and after hearing from him he composed very scholarly books know as Ṣaṭ*-Sandarbha . *These Ṣaṭ*-Sandarbha are recognized as the most scholarly work in the world. There is no comparison of his philosophical approach to the Vaiṣṇava school. Generally, the impersonal Brahman is discussed there, then Kṛṣṇa is discussed there, Bhāgavata is discussed there, love of Kṛṣṇa is discussed there. In this way, all subject matter, very elaborately discussed in Ṣaṭ-Sandarbha . That is his, the greatest gift (of) Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. And one of the Sandarbha thesis is Karma Sandarbha , his comments on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So Jīva Gosvāmī was so big scholar but sometimes one ordinary scholar, he approached Rūpa Gosvāmī that, "I want to discuss with you about śāstra ". Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand that this man is not a devotee, he will simply waste my time. He inquired from him, "What is your purpose of discussing with me about śāstras ? He said that, "I have discussed śāstras with many (aside) You sit down. "Big scholars and I have come victorious, so if I come victorious by discussing with you, then I will have very good fame and name." So Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand his view or his ambition that, "this man is a materialistic man, he wants some name and fame," so he told him, "All right, without discussing, if I give you certificate that I am defeated, will that do?" So, he said: "Yes, that will do." So he gave him in writing that, "I had śāstric discussion with this man, and I found myself very much inferior and defeated." So he was very glad to take that certificate, but when he was going, Jīva Gosvāmī saw, "My dear sir, what is that paper you have taken?" "No your uncle has agreed that he was defeated, so I have got this certificate, I am going." So he said: "Alright, let me see what he has written." So he gave him, and he kept that paper, and then he invited that, "You have defeated my uncle, but you can discuss with me also." So he agreed. So he was defeated. He was defeated and the matter was informed to Rūpa Gosvāmī that, "Your nephew and your disciple, Jīva Gosvāmī has defeated that learned scholar. So Rūpa Gosvāmī became a little angry superficially that, "Why did you bother? He was taking . . ." So some people say that Jīva Gosvāmī was rejected on this ground by Rūpa Gosvāmī, but that is not a fact. He was very glad that Jīva Gosvāmī defeated him, but he superficially said: "Why should you take so much trouble and bother? He might have gone with that certificate." But it is the duty of the disciple that even the spiritual master, or senior ācārya , they agree to be defeated, it is the duty of the disciple to see that his spiritual master and superior is not defeated. *That is the instruction we get from Jīva Gosvāmī's behavior. This is one of the important . . . and later on when Jīva Gosvāmī established the Rādhā*-Damodara temple in Vṛndāvana, but he had no sons because he was brahmacārī , so some of his gṛhastha devotee was entrusted with the management of the Rādhā-Damodara temple, and they are still going on by their descendants. Then next important . . . (break) . . . the next important date is 14th September, which is known as Ananta Caturdaśī, and the disappearance day of Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura, and appearance day of . . . (pause) Thirteenth September is the appearance day of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and 14th Septmeber is Ananta Caturdaśī and disappearance day of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Devotee: On the calendar here it has 14th of September Advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, the 13th September, worship of Śrī Vāmanadeva. Fifteenth of September Viśvarūpa festival. Prabhupāda: Yes, 15th September, Viśvarūpa. Devotee: Fourteenth of September, Prabhupāda: No, 15th September. Devotee: Yeah, Visvarupa, but 14th of September advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda. Prabhupāda: No, that should be 13th. Devotee: Thirteenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura 13th, and 14th Ananta Caturdaśī and Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So, this 14th September should be observed fasting, whole day. Devotee: Fourteenth is the advent of or the demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Yes Devotee: The death, I mean the disappearance Prabhupāda: Yes, but not for demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but because that is Ananta Caturdaśī Vrata, the, generally the fasting is observed till evening, up to 5 o'clock. The next day, Viśvarūpa Mahotsava, feasting. Devotee: On the 13th of September, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda's Appearance is there any special observance? *Prabhupāda: No, special observance means to discuss about the life and works of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that's all. Then 26th September, Ekādaśī. Then 10th October, Vijayā*-daśamī, appearance date of Śrīla Madhvācārya, and the victory day of Lord Rāmacandra. So there is no fasting, but in the evening we should celebrate some feasting and discuss about the life and works of Śrī Madhvācārya as well as Rāmāyaṇa incidents where Rāma and Rāvaṇa fought. The next day is Ekādaśī, that is means 11th October. Then 12th October is Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, there is no fasting, but we should have discussion of Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī happened to be the only boy of his father and his uncle. He was a very rich man's son, but he left home for Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. His life should be discussed as follows, that from the beginning he was very much detached to worldly life. So his father and mother saw that this boy is very much detached, he should be immediately married with a beautiful wife. So that was done—he was given a very nice house and beautiful wife—but still he was very much detached. So when he was a householder he met Nityānanda at Pāṇihāṭī and he prayed Lord Caitanya to take him with Him. At that time Caitanya was sannyāsī . Lord Caitanya instructed him that, "Don't be in a hurry, gradually Kṛṣṇa will give you a chance to be aloof from these worldly affairs." He was very intelligent even though he was detached from worldly affairs, but from his activities it appears that he was very intelligent also in worldly affairs. While somehow or other, for political reasons, his father and uncle were to be arrested by the minister of the then, Muslim government, and his father and uncle hided themselves to avoid the arrest. Then the agent of the Nawab, he arrested Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. So "Tell, where is your father and uncle, otherwise you shall be tortured." So he did not answer anything, but after some time when he was in arrest, he very politely presented his case to the minister, "My dear sir, I know my uncle, father and yourself, you are very intimate friends and treat each other as brothers. So sometimes there is some quarrel between brothers, that I can understand. But so far I am concerned, I am equally affectionate to my father, uncle as well as to yourself. I am also your son." In this way, when he very politely presented, the minister became very much affected, and he began to cry, "Yes, this boy is very nice." So he immediately released him and told him that, "Yes, we are brothers. Now if you settle up our disagreement that will be very nice." So he was released and he made a settlement between the minister and his father and uncle, so in that settlement he showed his worldly intelligence very nicely. He was not a, ah, less politician; his management was so nice. So that means a Vaiṣṇava is not less intelligent, he can manage anything. But that does not mean that he is attached to anything. This example we get from Śrī Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. Even in his household life he managed things very intelligently, but later on he left home. He was guarded by the watchman of his father and uncle, but he somehow or other got out of their watch . . . (indistinct) . . . and directly went to see Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and when Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw him coming to His shelter, He very much welcomed him, and He said: "Raghunātha, you have been saved by Kṛṣṇa from the hole of stool. Your father and uncle happened to be friend of my grandfather." *Lord Caitanya's grandfather was Nīlāmbara Cakravartī, and he was a very well*-known learned Brahmin , so all the big men were known to him. So this father and uncle of Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī used to call him as elder brother. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu took this opportunity that, "Your father and uncle is in brotherly relation with my grandfather. Therefore, your father and uncle happens to be my grandfather. Generally, the grandfather and the grandson, they treat themselves joking, so I can joke your father and uncle, you do not be sorry." Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not reply anything, he was very submissive. So in that connection He said that, "Your father and uncle is a worms of the stool. They are very much fond of material enjoyment, and Kṛṣṇa has saved you from that hole of stool." So in this way he criticized his father and uncle. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not reply. Then he entrusted him to His secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, for his teaching, and in this way Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was known as Svarūpa's Raghunātha. So, his father became very sorry that the boy has left home, and he has gone to Caitanya, they are mendicants, very hard life, how this boy will live? So immediately he sent some servants and 400 rupees. Four hundred rupees in those days a hundred times valuable than at the present moment. So he was sending 400 rupees regularly per month and Ragunatha Dāsa Gosvāmī was accepting them, but he was spending the money by prasāda distribution to the saintly persons of Jagannātha Purī, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was also invited, and He also used to go. But after some time, he stopped that invitation. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu inquired, "So why Raghunātha does not nowadays invite us? What is the matter? So Svarūpa Dāmodara informed Him that, "He is no more accepting the rupees sent by his father". "Oh, he has left it?" "Yes, sir." "Very nice, then how he is living?" "Now he stands on the staircase of Jagannātha temple at night, and when the pūjārīs go away they give some foodstuff, and he eats that." "Oh, that's nice." So one day Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to see how Raghunātha . . . this means Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu had good attention on Raghunātha's activities although he was entrusted to His secretary for teaching. So one day He went to that staircase, He did not find Raghunātha Dāsa there, so He inquired, "I did not find Raghunātha Dāsa there." So His secretary informed, "So he has left that also, practice." "Why? Then how he is eating?" "No, he does not go anywhere, ask anybody, but he stands on the outside of the kitchen of Jagannātha and whatever rice is thrown from the outlet of that kitchen, while the kitchen is washed, he collects some rice and eats those rice." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu became very much glad to hear that Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī is practicing so much renunciation. So all of a sudden one day He went to his room, "Raghunātha, I did not see you for so many days." Then He found out in a pot those collected rice were kept and immediately He took it, "Oh, you have got very nice rice here," and began to eat. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī immediately caught His hand, "Sir, it is not fit for Your eating." "Oh! I am eating so nice, you say it is not fit for Me?" That means Lord Caitanya encouraged him that, "Don't be discouraged that this is bad, or this is not fit. I can eat, anyone can eat." In this way Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī was elevated to a very exalted position amongst the Gosvāmīs. He is known as Dāsa Gosvāmī because he belonged to the kāyastha family and other Gosvāmīs, they belonged to Brahmin family. Therefore, in order to keep his position as subordinate to the Brahmins , he was known as Dāsa Gosvāmī. But it does not make any difference whether a Brahmin is a Gosvāmī or a non- brahmin is a Gosvāmī, he is equally respected. *This Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī later on, after Lord Caitanya's disappearance he went to Vṛndāvana to associate with the other Gosvāmīs, and he remained mostly at Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, and he passed his days at Rādhā-kuṇḍa. His tomb is there still in Rādhā-kuṇḍa and he has got established a temple, that is Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī's temple. All the Gosvāmīs established some temple, separately. That temple is also there. *(break) . . . some of the instructions that such exalted personalities used to keep regular routine vow. Another thing that is also very difficult. At Rādhā*-kuṇḍa Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not eat every day. He would eat every alternate day, or maybe after two days, he would take a little butter, say about ten grains or twenty grains, and that was his foodstuff, and the whole day and night he would engage himself in chanting, in writing books. He did not write many books, but some of his prayers are very famous. Some prayers, mostly he was engaged in chanting, and offering obeisances, circumambulating. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī's life is so glorious. This should be discussed on that day . . . (indistinct) . . . later on. Devotee: Thank you Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1970, Bombay Prabhupāda: There are nice birds. Cuckoo. Devotee: That cuckoo bird? *Prabhupāda: "Co*-co, co-co, co." Haṁsadūta: In India everything is alive. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I said. In India it appears that everything is alive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When we came we first noticed that everywhere there's a town, all kinds of animals are living. No one is disturbing them. Prabhupāda: Well, this is land of religion. It is admitted by other parts of the world. Just see. Columbus was searching after India even for trade, hundred of years . . . people are coming to India for so many: for knowledge, for philosophy, for trade, for money. Why these Britishers came? They came for money. And now, India being exploited for so many thousands of years and their standard of civilization deteriorated, the condition is now . . . still, India's position is unique, still, in this fallen condition. Now people are degraded from their high standard of living, from spiritual point of view, material point of view. And still, they stand, previous social construction, their living condition, their feelings of religion. It is still going on. Climate also. Haṁsadūta: Climate. Prabhupāda: Climate also. The climate is very favorable. Now it is, of course, winter season. Otherwise, it will continue for two months only. It is not very severe, and still, this condition will not continue. Throughout the whole year you can remain naked body. There is no expenditure for dressing much. And to remain clean, you simply wash in the water, and immediately it is . . . so with one cloth or two cloths you can go on for six months. There is no much expenditure. And this vegetarian diet, if you take a few grains of this chick pea and little milk, you don't require anything to eat. Everything, facility, is there still. But they have . . . the people are being trained up to imitate Western civilization. That is the government policy that, "Unless you become westernized, technologist, you'll not be happy." But they can become happy even in this condition. This artificial partition has caused some trouble by the Britishers because the Pakistan has taken away all the wheat and rice. Their purpose was that . . . *The Punjab side, they are producing wheat in very large quantity. In Bengal, that is the . . . perhaps the biggest rice producing country in the world, Bengal. So rice is in Pakistan and wheat is in Pakistan. Even cows, they were maintained by the Punjabis, big, big cows, milk*-producing. They are now in the Punjab. So there is no milk, there is no rice, there is no wheat. And they have no sugar. The sugar is produced this side. In this way, always. And the Kashmir question . . . that is British policy. Due to this partition only, India's position is now very crippled. And these rascal leaders, they accepted partition for becoming prime minister. This policy. Gandhi never agreed. So the Jawaharlal Nehru, in order to become prime minister, he committed such a blunder. Therefore India is given . . . Still, if they keep to their original culture, they will not be unhappy. And you'll find in every city some such institution as this *Gītā* Bhavan. In every city you'll find. People are contributing. They are coming. They are holding ceremony, calling saintly persons, every city still. Just like we have gone to Punjab? Revatīnandana: Amritsar. *Prabhupāda: Amritsar. How people were anxious to hear. Then there will be the Kumbha*-melā. If you go to Kumbha-melā you'll see how from all different parts of the country, millions of people will come to participate. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Allahabad? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Millions and millions of people. There is no advertisement, but they will come. Government wanted to discourage them in so many ways. In Jagannātha Purī you will find daily, in Vṛndāvana and all sacred places. The Ārya*-samājīs, the government, they tried to condemn this temple worship, this . . . Haṁsadūta: Nehru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nehru, yes. Nehru was such a rascal that he came . . . Ramakrishna Mission has a big hospital in Vṛndāvana. So on the opening day he came from Delhi by helicopter. He stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning, and the function took place in the evening. Or in daytime. He left the same day. But he did not visit a single temple. You see? Such an atheist he was. Haṁsadūta: He was also involved in that Jagannātha . . . there were many carvings on the temple, and he had some of them destroyed, at the Jagannātha temple. Prabhupāda: What it is? What he has destroyed? Himāvatī: It was a sun temple. Prabhupāda: Sun? Himāvatī: Sun. They worship the sun. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Himāvatī: And there are many obscene statues, so he came to that temple and said: "What is this?" and he had them destroyed . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He was a great rascal. Change this water. Revatīnandana: You saved us from all these rascals, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: You saved us from all these rascals . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Himāvatī: You saved us from all these rascals. You're the only one who told us these kind of people are . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Because if Nehru was a rascal, then what was Johnson and Nixon? What are they? *Prabhupāda: They are also rascals. All these politicians, they are rascals. Yes. That is Kali*-yuga. Where king was like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, now he is Johnson and Nehru. So how people will be happy? Haṁsadūta: So we have to run some of our devotees for office. Prabhupāda: No, if you can make the people Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be automatically. Because the democracy is there. So if they vote for a Kṛṣṇa conscious person to become president and prime minister, then everything will be saved. So that means you have to create voter, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be right. That should be one of your aims, the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. The government is still is under the control of the public. That's a fact. If the public becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, naturally the government will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that is up to the public. But they do not want to. Therefore they want a king—the crane was sent. You know this story? The frogs, they wanted a king from God, and God gave. He gave them one stone . . . (indistinct) . . . small. So they were expecting a king. Then, when they saw that king is not speaking, somebody jumped over it. Still, the king did not say: "What can be done to the king?" So they accused the God that, "What kind of king you have . . .? He does not speak. He does not move." *"All right." Then He sent one crane. So the crane came and began to catch one like that. Then they became, "Oh, what kind of king?" (laughs) (laughter) So the public is like that. They wanted. They defied this religious system. They defied their . . . yes. The modernizing. Who was saying, "the modernized version of Bhagavad*-gītā "? Chinmayananda? Haṁsadūta: Chinmayananda. Prabhupāda: They're appreciating. You see? Revatīnandana: There's a story I read. Sometimes the . . . in South America there's a small wildcat called ocelot. And they are like tigers, but very small. They eat monkeys. They eat monkeys in the tree. They're cats, about twice as big as a house cat, called ocelots. And sometimes these ocelots, they'll lay on the branch of a tree like they're dead. They don't move. They don't even blink their eyes. And all the monkeys come and they gather around to see this dead ocelot. And finally the monkeys get very crazy and they go, one of them, and pull the tail of the ocelot, and then it's all over. That's how they kill the monkeys. Prabhupāda: Therefore monkeys are considered very fools. Haṁsadūta: Foolish. Prabhupāda: Foolish, yes. Revatīnandana: They're like the people, and the leaders kill them. Prabhupāda: There are some birds, they also eat monkeys. Haṁsadūta: Birds. Revatīnandana: Big hawks like eagles. *Prabhupāda: Monkey*-eaters. I have seen that bird in Los Angeles zoo, monkey-eater bird. Revatīnandana: They're from Africa. Big eagles. Haṁsadūta: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja told us about the monkeys in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many monkeys. Himāvatī: Big monkeys. Prabhupāda: No, no. Himāvatī: No? Prabhupāda: That is in Bengal. That is called Hanumān. Revatīnandana: You said they will join a gang. You said in Vṛndāvana they would come in a gang. And three or four will jump out in front like this, and the rest will grab what you have and take it away. You said they would do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They're very smart. Prabhupāda: But if you have got a stick, they will not come. They are afraid of stick. The dogs also, they are afraid of stick. Therefore in such places one should carry in hand one stick. That is safe. After all, they are animals. They know that a man can strike with the stick very severely. They are afraid of that. In Vṛndāvana, in the beginning, I was eating, and a monkey entered very peacefully and took it, everything. (laughter) He took everything. I could not replace. I began running. Immediately caught up. They do like that. In Vṛndāvana you cannot open doors. Haṁsadūta: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: They come right in. They're so bold? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Haṁsadūta: They're so bold? Prabhupāda: Bold means they will come and they have no tactic. You are eating and they'll enter. Something he will take away. Therefore there are . . . just like here, two sets of doors, one net, the railing door. So one door is closed, wooden; another is railing. So railing door must be closed always. Otherwise you cannot eat, you cannot live very peacefully. They may . . . monkey will come. Devotee: Acyutānanda said he was making capatis one day, and there was a little . . . a nail this thin especially to keep the monkeys out, holding the door closed. So he heard a sound outside and thought somebody was coming, and, sure enough, the nail was lifted up by the string, and a monkey popped in, got his cāpāṭis and ran. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are very clever. Himāvatī: But after all, they're human beings also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Monkey is the last species of life before being promoted to the human being. There are three animals: monkey and cow and tiger . . . lion. Yes. Haṁsadūta: When that promotion comes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are not immediately born into a society like American or . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. Uncivilized, just like aborigine. Haṁsadūta: Aborigines, negroes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Human species. Then gradually they become born in civilized . . . Haṁsadūta: It must be very difficult to actually get a birth in a civilized society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. Therefore it is said, labdhvā sudurlabham ( SB 11.9.29). It is very rare, now, especially to take birth in India in the Vedic society. India means within this planet, the civilized Aryan family. Now Āryan families have degraded. Otherwise, Āryan means progressive. So all over the world the Āryan families, they have degraded. Otherwise, the Vedic civilization was Āryan civilization. Devotee: Some places they recognize that. When we went to one meeting in Bombay . . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The Europeans and Americans, they belong to Āryan family. They have lost their Vedic culture. Now it is being revived again. Revatīnandana: They came from those renegade kings that ran away from Paraśurāma? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many reasons. *Revatīnandana: Is it also true that the Scandinavians come from . . . kaṁsa*-nisūdana was telling me that the Scandinavians . . . the name Scandinavia came from Skandha, god of war, and that these people were driven out of India by the Hindu society. They were worshipers of Skandha, and they took shelter in northern Europe? *Prabhupāda: Maybe. Actually Āryan civilization was Central Asia. Some of them went towards India and some of them went towards Europe. Indo*-European stock, that is called. Revatīnandana: Central Asia. Prabhupāda: Central Asia. Caucasian. Kaśyapa . . . Kaśyapa Muni's place. Haṁsadūta: How come they're so white? Prabhupāda: The Āryans are white. But here, this side, due to climatic influence, they are a little tanned. Indians are tan, but they are not black. But Āryans are all white. And the non-Āryans, they are called black. Yes. Devotee: They use the term "Caucasian" to designate those persons who . . . Prabhupāda: Not only Europeans. The Kashmir side of this Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Punjab, they are all white. Devotee: Caucasaus Mountains is near Afghanistan. Prabhupāda: Yes. All white. In Punjab, you'll find, they are as white as Europeans. Oh, yes. Kashmir. Himāvatī: Also in . . . (indistinct) . . . and they're tall. Prabhupāda: Tall. So Āryan family, whole Āryans, they are white. And śūdras are called kṛṣṇa , kṛṣṇa , black. Yes. Revatīnandana: But the śūdras have handsome bodily features also. In Amritsar the people have, I think, handsome bodily features. Prabhupāda: Yes, Āryan family, the structure of body . . . from the . . . there is a science called physiognomy. No? Yes. So it can be ascertained. But we have to forget all these material . . . we have to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "This is white skin . . ." So you have all taken your bath? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, give me little oil. I shall also take bath. Devotee: What to do about a massage? Prabhupāda: Do. Do it. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1970, Bombay Prabhupāda: There are nice birds. Cuckoo. Devotee: That cuckoo bird? *Prabhupāda: "Co*-co, co-co, co." Haṁsadūta: In India everything is alive. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I said. In India it appears that everything is alive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When we came we first noticed that everywhere there's a town, all kinds of animals are living. No one is disturbing them. Prabhupāda: Well, this is land of religion. It is admitted by other parts of the world. Just see. Columbus was searching after India even for trade, hundred of years . . . people are coming to India for so many: for knowledge, for philosophy, for trade, for money. Why these Britishers came? They came for money. And now, India being exploited for so many thousands of years and their standard of civilization deteriorated, the condition is now . . . still, India's position is unique, still, in this fallen condition. Now people are degraded from their high standard of living, from spiritual point of view, material point of view. And still, they stand, previous social construction, their living condition, their feelings of religion. It is still going on. Climate also. Haṁsadūta: Climate. Prabhupāda: Climate also. The climate is very favorable. Now it is, of course, winter season. Otherwise, it will continue for two months only. It is not very severe, and still, this condition will not continue. Throughout the whole year you can remain naked body. There is no expenditure for dressing much. And to remain clean, you simply wash in the water, and immediately it is . . . so with one cloth or two cloths you can go on for six months. There is no much expenditure. And this vegetarian diet, if you take a few grains of this chick pea and little milk, you don't require anything to eat. Everything, facility, is there still. But they have . . . the people are being trained up to imitate Western civilization. That is the government policy that, "Unless you become westernized, technologist, you'll not be happy." But they can become happy even in this condition. This artificial partition has caused some trouble by the Britishers because the Pakistan has taken away all the wheat and rice. Their purpose was that . . . *The Punjab side, they are producing wheat in very large quantity. In Bengal, that is the . . . perhaps the biggest rice producing country in the world, Bengal. So rice is in Pakistan and wheat is in Pakistan. Even cows, they were maintained by the Punjabis, big, big cows, milk*-producing. They are now in the Punjab. So there is no milk, there is no rice, there is no wheat. And they have no sugar. The sugar is produced this side. In this way, always. And the Kashmir question . . . that is British policy. Due to this partition only, India's position is now very crippled. And these rascal leaders, they accepted partition for becoming prime minister. This policy. Gandhi never agreed. So the Jawaharlal Nehru, in order to become prime minister, he committed such a blunder. Therefore India is given . . . Still, if they keep to their original culture, they will not be unhappy. And you'll find in every city some such institution as this *Gītā* Bhavan. In every city you'll find. People are contributing. They are coming. They are holding ceremony, calling saintly persons, every city still. Just like we have gone to Punjab? Revatīnandana: Amritsar. *Prabhupāda: Amritsar. How people were anxious to hear. Then there will be the Kumbha*-melā. If you go to Kumbha-melā you'll see how from all different parts of the country, millions of people will come to participate. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Allahabad? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Millions and millions of people. There is no advertisement, but they will come. Government wanted to discourage them in so many ways. In Jagannātha Purī you will find daily, in Vṛndāvana and all sacred places. The Ārya*-samājīs, the government, they tried to condemn this temple worship, this . . . Haṁsadūta: Nehru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nehru, yes. Nehru was such a rascal that he came . . . Ramakrishna Mission has a big hospital in Vṛndāvana. So on the opening day he came from Delhi by helicopter. He stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning, and the function took place in the evening. Or in daytime. He left the same day. But he did not visit a single temple. You see? Such an atheist he was. Haṁsadūta: He was also involved in that Jagannātha . . . there were many carvings on the temple, and he had some of them destroyed, at the Jagannātha temple. Prabhupāda: What it is? What he has destroyed? Himāvatī: It was a sun temple. Prabhupāda: Sun? Himāvatī: Sun. They worship the sun. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Himāvatī: And there are many obscene statues, so he came to that temple and said: "What is this?" and he had them destroyed . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He was a great rascal. Change this water. Revatīnandana: You saved us from all these rascals, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: You saved us from all these rascals . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Himāvatī: You saved us from all these rascals. You're the only one who told us these kind of people are . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Because if Nehru was a rascal, then what was Johnson and Nixon? What are they? *Prabhupāda: They are also rascals. All these politicians, they are rascals. Yes. That is Kali*-yuga. Where king was like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, now he is Johnson and Nehru. So how people will be happy? Haṁsadūta: So we have to run some of our devotees for office. Prabhupāda: No, if you can make the people Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be automatically. Because the democracy is there. So if they vote for a Kṛṣṇa conscious person to become president and prime minister, then everything will be saved. So that means you have to create voter, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be right. That should be one of your aims, the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. The government is still is under the control of the public. That's a fact. If the public becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, naturally the government will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that is up to the public. But they do not want to. Therefore they want a king—the crane was sent. You know this story? The frogs, they wanted a king from God, and God gave. He gave them one stone . . . (indistinct) . . . small. So they were expecting a king. Then, when they saw that king is not speaking, somebody jumped over it. Still, the king did not say: "What can be done to the king?" So they accused the God that, "What kind of king you have . . .? He does not speak. He does not move." *"All right." Then He sent one crane. So the crane came and began to catch one like that. Then they became, "Oh, what kind of king?" (laughs) (laughter) So the public is like that. They wanted. They defied this religious system. They defied their . . . yes. The modernizing. Who was saying, "the modernized version of Bhagavad*-gītā "? Chinmayananda? Haṁsadūta: Chinmayananda. Prabhupāda: They're appreciating. You see? Revatīnandana: There's a story I read. Sometimes the . . . in South America there's a small wildcat called ocelot. And they are like tigers, but very small. They eat monkeys. They eat monkeys in the tree. They're cats, about twice as big as a house cat, called ocelots. And sometimes these ocelots, they'll lay on the branch of a tree like they're dead. They don't move. They don't even blink their eyes. And all the monkeys come and they gather around to see this dead ocelot. And finally the monkeys get very crazy and they go, one of them, and pull the tail of the ocelot, and then it's all over. That's how they kill the monkeys. Prabhupāda: Therefore monkeys are considered very fools. Haṁsadūta: Foolish. Prabhupāda: Foolish, yes. Revatīnandana: They're like the people, and the leaders kill them. Prabhupāda: There are some birds, they also eat monkeys. Haṁsadūta: Birds. Revatīnandana: Big hawks like eagles. *Prabhupāda: Monkey*-eaters. I have seen that bird in Los Angeles zoo, monkey-eater bird. Revatīnandana: They're from Africa. Big eagles. Haṁsadūta: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja told us about the monkeys in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many monkeys. Himāvatī: Big monkeys. Prabhupāda: No, no. Himāvatī: No? Prabhupāda: That is in Bengal. That is called Hanumān. Revatīnandana: You said they will join a gang. You said in Vṛndāvana they would come in a gang. And three or four will jump out in front like this, and the rest will grab what you have and take it away. You said they would do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They're very smart. Prabhupāda: But if you have got a stick, they will not come. They are afraid of stick. The dogs also, they are afraid of stick. Therefore in such places one should carry in hand one stick. That is safe. After all, they are animals. They know that a man can strike with the stick very severely. They are afraid of that. In Vṛndāvana, in the beginning, I was eating, and a monkey entered very peacefully and took it, everything. (laughter) He took everything. I could not replace. I began running. Immediately caught up. They do like that. In Vṛndāvana you cannot open doors. Haṁsadūta: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: They come right in. They're so bold? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Haṁsadūta: They're so bold? Prabhupāda: Bold means they will come and they have no tactic. You are eating and they'll enter. Something he will take away. Therefore there are . . . just like here, two sets of doors, one net, the railing door. So one door is closed, wooden; another is railing. So railing door must be closed always. Otherwise you cannot eat, you cannot live very peacefully. They may . . . monkey will come. Devotee: Acyutānanda said he was making capatis one day, and there was a little . . . a nail this thin especially to keep the monkeys out, holding the door closed. So he heard a sound outside and thought somebody was coming, and, sure enough, the nail was lifted up by the string, and a monkey popped in, got his cāpāṭis and ran. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are very clever. Himāvatī: But after all, they're human beings also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Monkey is the last species of life before being promoted to the human being. There are three animals: monkey and cow and tiger . . . lion. Yes. Haṁsadūta: When that promotion comes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are not immediately born into a society like American or . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. Uncivilized, just like aborigine. Haṁsadūta: Aborigines, negroes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Human species. Then gradually they become born in civilized . . . Haṁsadūta: It must be very difficult to actually get a birth in a civilized society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. Therefore it is said, labdhvā sudurlabham ( SB 11.9.29). It is very rare, now, especially to take birth in India in the Vedic society. India means within this planet, the civilized Aryan family. Now Āryan families have degraded. Otherwise, Āryan means progressive. So all over the world the Āryan families, they have degraded. Otherwise, the Vedic civilization was Āryan civilization. Devotee: Some places they recognize that. When we went to one meeting in Bombay . . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The Europeans and Americans, they belong to Āryan family. They have lost their Vedic culture. Now it is being revived again. Revatīnandana: They came from those renegade kings that ran away from Paraśurāma? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many reasons. *Revatīnandana: Is it also true that the Scandinavians come from . . . kaṁsa*-nisūdana was telling me that the Scandinavians . . . the name Scandinavia came from Skandha, god of war, and that these people were driven out of India by the Hindu society. They were worshipers of Skandha, and they took shelter in northern Europe? *Prabhupāda: Maybe. Actually Āryan civilization was Central Asia. Some of them went towards India and some of them went towards Europe. Indo*-European stock, that is called. Revatīnandana: Central Asia. Prabhupāda: Central Asia. Caucasian. Kaśyapa . . . Kaśyapa Muni's place. Haṁsadūta: How come they're so white? Prabhupāda: The Āryans are white. But here, this side, due to climatic influence, they are a little tanned. Indians are tan, but they are not black. But Āryans are all white. And the non-Āryans, they are called black. Yes. Devotee: They use the term "Caucasian" to designate those persons who . . . Prabhupāda: Not only Europeans. The Kashmir side of this Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Punjab, they are all white. Devotee: Caucasaus Mountains is near Afghanistan. Prabhupāda: Yes. All white. In Punjab, you'll find, they are as white as Europeans. Oh, yes. Kashmir. Himāvatī: Also in . . . (indistinct) . . . and they're tall. Prabhupāda: Tall. So Āryan family, whole Āryans, they are white. And śūdras are called kṛṣṇa , kṛṣṇa , black. Yes. Revatīnandana: But the śūdras have handsome bodily features also. In Amritsar the people have, I think, handsome bodily features. Prabhupāda: Yes, Āryan family, the structure of body . . . from the . . . there is a science called physiognomy. No? Yes. So it can be ascertained. But we have to forget all these material . . . we have to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "This is white skin . . ." So you have all taken your bath? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, give me little oil. I shall also take bath. Devotee: What to do about a massage? Prabhupāda: Do. Do it. (end) Conversation -- December 4, 1970, Indore Devotee (1): (indistinct) . . . even after . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharishi will be gone . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) If they had a parent . . . (indistinct) . . . very wealthy parent. Revatīnandana: People come on Sunday like this. Devotee (1): I know, I lived in Chicago he became very famous. Prabhupāda: He has becomes famous in India. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not in New York. You see? Devotee (1): (indistinct) . . . he came here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Here? Revatīnandana: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . he said that the bees are very intelligent. A divine form of bees . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is Kaṁsa's business. Always thinking of how to kill Kṛṣṇa. Rāvaṇa's business. Always thinking of how to kill Rāma. Therefore they are demons and anyone following the principles is a demon. How to kill God and make atheism prominent in his place. The present endeavor of the human society is like that. They like Buddhism as you call—there is no question of God. Therefore some of them like Buddhism. The same demonism. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But in a pollute form. That's all. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Buddhism, Jainism, yoga , all this Vedānta they are all demons. Under different name they called it. The main purpose is to throw away God and become God himself, that's all. Mātājī: Can you explain Jainism? Prabhupāda: Jainism is like Buddhism. Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā —non*-violence. Outside of the . . . (indistinct) . . . that's called this man is put into trouble. But even in that troubled condition—it is not trouble for him. Even if it is trouble but he does not forget Kṛṣṇa. That is mistaken. Haṁsadūta: So the yogīs are always thinking that this world is too much trouble and they want to go out? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa or the devotees has no such plan. Go out or go in it doesn't matter. We want to serve. That's all. Haṁsadūta: In the *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* . . . (indistinct) . . . says that, "The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete and everything emanates from Him is also complete in itself. And because He is the Complete Whole He remains the Complete Balance." So does it mean that for a devotee, a pure devotee. Everything that is going on either in this world or in the spiritual world is part of the Personality of Godhead. Is part of His personality. Is that a fact? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Is part of? Haṁsadūta: It is called a personality, in other words he can take everything personally. Prabhupāda: Who? Haṁsadūta: The devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He accepts everything on a personal basis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That boy in New Vrindavan, busy bee. Haṁsadūta: Who? Prabhupāda: Busy bee. Haṁsadūta: Busy bee? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: I've never met him but I have heard about him. I've never met him. Prabhupāda: (laughs). They call him busy bee. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: A busy bee being there is very nice. Being attached to a nitya*-siddha . Haṁsadūta: Whose Nit . . .? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-siddha . *Haṁsadūta: Who is Nitya*-siddha ? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . appears. In any circumstances he does not forget Jagannātha. He is child and he does not forget Jagannātha. Revatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. A child and he does not care for his toys. He is fully engaged only in Jagannātha. Wherever he sits down, he puts some you know base and puts Jagannātha and makes some sweets and caraṇāmṛta and some flower. He has all . . . (indistinct) . . . very good attachment for Jagannātha worship. Haṁsadūta: It appears to me that this child is based on its very beginning in the house of a Vaiṣṇava or in the company and he bound to turn out to be a pure devotee. It seems to be total attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Rest . . . restless child means very intelligent child. Haṁsadūta: Restless? Prabhupāda: A child who is very restless, or he seems to be, is understood to be very intelligent. But the father and mother does not know how to capture it. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise the sign is restlessness, means he is very intelligent . . . (indistinct) . . . don't you see life of Kṛṣṇa? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: How much restless He? Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mother Yaśodā (laughs) Yaśodāmayī (laughs). This is . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Before we were devotees I was living in a . . . (indistinct) . . . with Dvārkādīśa and his mother. And sometimes we would have kīrtana . He would chant, he would always be very happy, he'd run around and he would always chant, he liked it very much. Prabhupāda: That boy? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . He was always absorbed in his maya. He was never much . . . (indistinct) . . . I think he was attached after Jagannātha that same tendency . . . (indistinct) . . . he was like that always . . . (indistinct) . . . for a long time. Prabhupāda: So they were that morning Sun or a different? Revatīnandana: Well it's not morning Sun . . . (indistinct) . . . New Mexico. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: After morning chānā , morning chānā was Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa and . . . (indistinct) . . . morning . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Mexico . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Mexico there also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I was, I, I went there. Revatīnandana: You went there, I know. I heard about that . . . I think after you had gone. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I went there. The organizer Mr . . .? Devotee (1): Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Godly? Devotee (1): Harir Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Harir. He took me there. Devotee (1): Crazy man (laughter) Prabhupāda: I held kīrtana there. You remember? Haṁsadūta: Ah, yes. He also wrote . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . really? I think Bhakta Rūpa was living in that place at one time. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . Dāmodara? Revatīnandana: This is . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva's wife was there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . apologized . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Possibly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: But you cannot have home here. Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. So why you bother about this temporary home? Rather do some hard work for going back to home, back to Godhead. That should be taken. Actually you have no home. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Just as if . . . (indistinct) . . . at any time. Prabhupāda: Eh? And why should we bother about home? It is not possible. That: tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido ( SB 1.5.18). *Bhāgavata says that you cry for that thing which is not available by wandering from Brahmaloka down to the Pātāla*-loka. Actually wondering perpetually and you do not know why you are wandering, why you are changing your dress and I am called eternal. Why it is in this diseased condition? They do not think like that. Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just like a foolish patient he is suffering. He is thinking he is all right. "It is all right." Yes there are so many diseased fellows, they don't take seriously the disease. They maybe all right. Similarly this is a disease to change body one after another. But they are . . . they do not know what to do and if they know, "All right, disease is all right." This is knowledge. So you can begin ārati . (break) So business means you are want to earn money. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And what you will do with money? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Come here, come here . . . what you will do with money? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sit down. Do you think you can help the poor? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): This material . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How many poor men you can feed? Devotee (2): Not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . kīrtana . Prabhupāda: There are so many institutions, the problem of poor is solved? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All over the world there are hundreds and thousands of institutions for giving enlightenment but there are millions and millions of poor men still. How do you think, that it will be solved? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can do but the problem will be not solved. That is my consideration. You do your best but the problem will not be solved. There are the whole.. You are thinking because you are maunānīhānilāyāmā (SB 11.18.17) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. You are . . . (indistinct) . . . poor therefore you are thinking that I shall be able to do something to my . . . but these American boy, they are the richest country. They have not solved this problem. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . solve the problem. Prabhupāda: They are in it. You see if the problem is not solved then your aim of life is not very solid. You say that after earning money, "I shall try to solve this problem." Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Individually or collectively. In USA in the universities they are well equipped, very big, big buildings and nothing is wanted. But they are producing all confused students. In England there is a scarcity of educated laborers. They are no more interested even for education. The young boy. So in England especially I have seen, they have to employ so many Indians for high respectable posts. In London the civil officer, or civil servant is a Bengali gentleman. That means they are finding difficulty in having their own men for responsible posts. They are no more. They are no more interested for education. They are so much disappointed. Although there is free education, free medical help, in England. People are still not satisfied. So that is not possible. You cannot make the people of the world happy by your plan. People can be happy only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my point. So you ask your father to spare this house for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will become a prominent secretary. To preach this cult here. (aside) Why you are going? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: People are . . . eh? Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa comes by kāruṇika . Ye to bohot din se hai. (This has been present since a long time.) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Ye to Bhagavad Gita me jaise bataya hai . . . (This is as described in Bhagavad Gītā . . .) that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), vivasvate imaṁ yogaṁ Ye yoga, Bhagavad Gita jo pehle . . . Suryaloka pe jo raja hai, Vivasvan unko bataya hai. To wo to . . . (This yoga , Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken to Vivasvān, the king of the Sun-planet. So that is . . .) Devotee (3): Nahi, ye discipline jo apne shuru ki hai . . . (No, this discipline that you have started . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye jo char hai . . . (These four which are there . . .) Devotee (3): (indistinct Hindi) . . . Iske pehle bhi kuch . . . (indistinct) . . . (Before this was there . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha iske pehle Caitanya Mahāprabhu, uske pehle Kṛṣṇa. (Yes, before this Caitanya Mahāprabhu, before that Kṛṣṇa.) Himself. Devotee (3): Ye activity, ye movement abhi apne char sal pehle . . . (This activity, this movement was started by you 4 years back . . .) Prabhupāda: Shuru kiya tha humara . . . (It was started by my . . .) Guru Mahārāja. But it has come into prominence since 4 or 5 years . . . Abhi kya padhta hai? (What are you studying now?) Devotee (3): B.A final Prabhupāda: B.A final that's nice. What is your subject? Devotee (3): Economics, political science . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I had also economics in my day. Economics and philosophy. And philosophy. Devotee (3): Pardon? Prabhupāda: And philosophy. Devotee (3): Philosophy also. Prabhupāda: No I took. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Economics and philosophy. Metaphysics, psychology, ethics. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you read all those western philosophers, like Descartes and Hume and Kant. Did you not read them? What did you think? Prabhupāda: No, I read, Kant says like this . . . (indistinct) . . . says like this, theory. My professor Dr. Urquhart he was a staunch Christian. He was talking the Bible also. He did not believe in karma. Christians cannot believe in karma because after this life finished there is no more life. Is it not? Devotee (2): No future life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): They generally say . . . there is no rebirth. Prabhupāda: So, there is no karma ? Revatīnandana: It's either heaven or hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . either you go to heaven or you go to hell forever. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is all right. Because hell means you again glide down to the cycle of birth and death and that is hell. And heaven means to promote yourself to the kingdom of God. In that sense it is all right. You take one chance, human form of life, so you can make this life utilized either for going back to home, or again you come down to the repetition of birth and death. That is hell. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In that sense it is nice. Revatīnandana: The difference is that they say once you have gone down . . . Prabhupāda: It is not very explicit. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the rudimentary idea is there. Either hell or heaven. It is a choice. You make your choice for heaven or you make your choice for hell. That we say also. Mānuṣaṁ durlabhaṁ . . . tad apy arthadam adhruvam (SB 7.6.1). It is very rare life, although it will be finished but it can give you the greatest benediction. So we should take that benediction otherwise you go to hell . . . Kya ye thik nahi hai? Nahi. (Is it not correct? No.) (pause) Can economics science help a man to improve his economic condition? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But there are many instances that a man tries for better life, throughout the whole life. But sometimes it is not successful. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . on condition. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: And sometimes it is found that a man, especially in Marwari community. They do not know any economics education . . . (indistinct) . . . and they earn and millions and millions. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (laughs) why it has been so? He never went to college to study economics but he knows so nice how to utilize economics. There are many amongst Marwari and they cannot find even a chair but millionaire. They earn money. Yes . . . my point is that even if you don't study economics you can become very rich man. There are many instances. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: So why should you waste your time in that? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Tal*-labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18 Bhāgavata says that, just like duḥkha , duḥkha means—distress. If you're destined to suffer some distress even if you don't try for it—it will come. Similarly if you're destined to have some profit, if you don't try for it it will come. Nobody tries for distress, why does it come? Therefore the natural conclusion should be, even if I don't try for economic development. If I am destined it will come. Therefore I should. Save my energy for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is right conclusion. I should save energy for. Collect all energy that is in my possession for utilization in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So far distress and happiness is concerned whatever it may come, that is all right. Either distress or happiness, don't mind. Bhaja budam tattvavit , you understand Sanskrit? Budam is . . . (indistinct) . . . let this happen. I am not concerned with that, let it happen. I'm concerned with the develop my Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Pitaji ka kya idea hai? (What is your father's idea?) Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: About this song. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And for us? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . taken a flat in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): He's taken a flat in Bombay. And . . . (indistinct) . . . buy the flat in Bombay . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kidhar rehta hai Bombay me? (Where does he stay in Bombay?) Devotee (3): Apollo Bunder Prabhupāda: Bori Bunder Devotee (3): Nahi, Apollo Bunder. (No, Apollo Bunder.) Prabhupāda: Apollo Bunder! Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Nice . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . Apollo Bunder is the first*-class spot. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is very respectable part. They are planning in their own way . . . (break) . . . office. He has been given to copy affairs, rough account book to make a copy. So he's doing. Now after some time he is in the, what is called? Toilet room. So the boss saw that he was in the toilet room two hours ago and again he is still. So he became angry. "Ah this man is always in the toilet room. What he is . . . ?" He asked him, "What you are doing here? I saw you two hours ago." "Sir I am finding out one fly." "Fly. Why?" "Sir in the rough account book there is a fly pressed there. So I'll have to do that." (laughter). So it will be difficulty (laughter). To catch this fly. (laughter). Whole day . . . (laughter) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you are excellent copies. Please go on and don't enjoy the (laughter) text reply (laughter). Sabarmati, you did not hear this study? It is very interesting. Machi mara clerk. (Fly killing clerk.) (laughter). Mātājī: Fly killing clerk? *Prabhupāda: Clerk. Clerk engaged in killing a fly. (laughter). One of our class friends (laughs). Yes, the Professor, Dr. Kalidasnath he dictated, "Roman one." And some dictators. Some history notes that is in our higher*-class. So one of our class friends in the examination he has also written, "Roman one." "Roman one" means this 1. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. But he has written, "Roman one," and exactly the word. "Roman one," 1, 2, exactly he wanted. He didn't have experience. So after the examination over, so (laughs) Dr Kalidas, he saw that this boy has simply crammed. He . . . So where is Mr. Womanwant so he could not understand Woman want (laughs). Then it was explained that he had so nicely crammed the whole. He had written "Roman one," "Roman one." Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. And our . . . one of our teachers he was also . . . he told us one story in that class. At that time there was no electric fan. Electric fan, so there was hand driven fan. Big, big . . . When and by . . . (indistinct) . . .? Pully, pully? Haṁsadūta: Pulley. Prabhupāda: Yes. Servant was engaged. So some professor, English professor. In those days all the professors were English. This is statement of my teacher. So he might have said, punkha khicho. (pull the fan.) Punkha means fan, khicho means pull on. The servant was a little flat, so the prof . . . the punkha khicho was go on with the fan. So in the notebook also . . . he has written punkha khicho, (pull the fan,) . . . then when he was comparing with other class friends. "Hey what is this? Punkha khicho. (Pull the fan.)" (laughs). And so there are many instances like that. Not known, Pradyumna has written, not known but somebody has written. So he has also composed, not known. He had no . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That if it is not to be mentioned. Not known. Don't try for any page number but he has written, "not known." Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The same punkha khicho. (pull the fan.) That means this mechanical worker they are senseless. They do not use their senses. Less intelligent. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . yes. Gaḍurikā*-pravāha-nyāya. (One man is doing and the other man is simply following.) (break) Dictaphone and I am getting an impression. So if I hear about it I can get the same impression. So knowledge about this microphone, either I see or hear—it has the same balance. Haṁsadūta: But by, by seeing it . . . Prabhupāda: Just like suppose if you see some friend that he is such and such. His body is useless. Similarly the same description is given to you, you hear it, so the impression is not the same? Haṁsadūta: Yes, some of the time. Prabhupāda: But on the other hand all your senses are imperfect. So any impression you get by these senses they are imperfect. By exercising your senses, whatever knowledge . . . Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Independently. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever knowledge you gather that is imperfect. Either you see . . . but foolish people they give more stress on seeing. He does not know my seeing is also imperfect. That is his position. He wants to gives stress on seeing but he is ignorant that his seeing power is also defective. What he will do by seeing? Just like Lord Caitanya when He was in Benares. Benares, Sanātana Gosvāmī came he asked, "Please give me a host. There is a Vaiṣṇava bring him here." And Sanātana Gosvāmī was more than a month, he was walking on the . . . on foot. He has no nice dress and there was hair, moustaches. And this Candraśekhara Ācārya came back, "Oh I didn't see any Vaiṣṇava there." "So there is no man?" "Yes there is a man but he is a . . . he appears to be a Muslim." So what is the value of his seeing? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu is seeing him, Vaiṣṇava. He is seeing him as a Muslim. It's clear? So what is the father seeing, that hearing is power . . . most important. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that he is a Vaiṣṇava. That is most powerful. By seeing he could not understand a Vaiṣṇava. But by hearing he had actual appreciation of Sanātana. But hearing from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that is the point. Therefore knowledge, hearing from authorized persons is all perfect. Not by seeing, not by touching, not by licking, not by tasting. No. Anyway you lose your senses to get real experience, its defect. But if you simply hear from the right authority that is perfect. That is our profit going. Our profit of knowledge therefore perfect. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We are hearing from Kṛṣṇa—about Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge of God is perfect. We are not perfect but our knowledge is perfect because we are hearing from the Supreme Perfect. They do not understand. "So this man is like me imperfect, how he can say, 'perfect knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, or God.'" That they cannot understand. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: This description is śruti*-pramāṇa , therefore as soon as there is evidence in the śruti , Vedas . According to Vedic system it is accepted, perfect. Revatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . was making yogurt. He had some milk that he had boiled and there was a bag on the table, a plastic bag . . . (indistinct) . . . and a thick white substance . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's suns, then why so many combination of suns cannot make the night day? Haṁsadūta: They will say it is too far away. Prabhupāda: Eh? Even if it is too far away so many suns. Devotee (1): And all of them bigger than ours. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . takes light and breaks it into it's respective colors. Prabhupāda: Hm. Revatīnandana: And you get from each Star a little different spectrum . . . (indistinct) . . . spectrum is different . . . (indistinct) . . . different saw, different chemical arrangement made in Hawaii. They have sun. But when he told me then I could understand . . . (indistinct) . . . they have different types of mirrors. Each mirror reflects the light a little differently. Prabhupāda: We have got authority from Kṛṣṇa. He says: nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī (Bg 10.21). *So this stars are just like moons, the light is reflected. If compared to the moon, why not in the star? He could have said, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁsūrya . He has not said. So I cannot take the so*-called scientists more authoritative than Kṛṣṇa. Our method is simple, we can challenge anyone, by hearing from Kṛṣṇa . . . and so many millions of suns they cannot make the . . . and one sun makes the . . . so brilliant that all other planes or so-called suns are covered. They cannot be seen even. Revatīnandana: It was a good lesson because I was attached to that theory. Prabhupāda: Eh? There are many. Revatīnandana: Then I had to detach, once I was detached I could see that either way would make sense. But . . . (indistinct) . . . the Vedic authority . . . (indistinct) . . . light . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 4, 1970, Indore Devotee (1): (indistinct) . . . even after . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharishi will be gone . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) If they had a parent . . . (indistinct) . . . very wealthy parent. Revatīnandana: People come on Sunday like this. Devotee (1): I know, I lived in Chicago he became very famous. Prabhupāda: He has becomes famous in India. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not in New York. You see? Devotee (1): (indistinct) . . . he came here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Here? Revatīnandana: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . he said that the bees are very intelligent. A divine form of bees . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is Kaṁsa's business. Always thinking of how to kill Kṛṣṇa. Rāvaṇa's business. Always thinking of how to kill Rāma. Therefore they are demons and anyone following the principles is a demon. How to kill God and make atheism prominent in his place. The present endeavor of the human society is like that. They like Buddhism as you call—there is no question of God. Therefore some of them like Buddhism. The same demonism. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But in a pollute form. That's all. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Buddhism, Jainism, yoga , all this Vedānta they are all demons. Under different name they called it. The main purpose is to throw away God and become God himself, that's all. Mātājī: Can you explain Jainism? Prabhupāda: Jainism is like Buddhism. Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā —non*-violence. Outside of the . . . (indistinct) . . . that's called this man is put into trouble. But even in that troubled condition—it is not trouble for him. Even if it is trouble but he does not forget Kṛṣṇa. That is mistaken. Haṁsadūta: So the yogīs are always thinking that this world is too much trouble and they want to go out? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa or the devotees has no such plan. Go out or go in it doesn't matter. We want to serve. That's all. Haṁsadūta: In the *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* . . . (indistinct) . . . says that, "The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete and everything emanates from Him is also complete in itself. And because He is the Complete Whole He remains the Complete Balance." So does it mean that for a devotee, a pure devotee. Everything that is going on either in this world or in the spiritual world is part of the Personality of Godhead. Is part of His personality. Is that a fact? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Is part of? Haṁsadūta: It is called a personality, in other words he can take everything personally. Prabhupāda: Who? Haṁsadūta: The devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He accepts everything on a personal basis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That boy in New Vrindavan, busy bee. Haṁsadūta: Who? Prabhupāda: Busy bee. Haṁsadūta: Busy bee? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: I've never met him but I have heard about him. I've never met him. Prabhupāda: (laughs). They call him busy bee. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: A busy bee being there is very nice. Being attached to a nitya*-siddha . Haṁsadūta: Whose Nit . . .? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-siddha . *Haṁsadūta: Who is Nitya*-siddha ? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . appears. In any circumstances he does not forget Jagannātha. He is child and he does not forget Jagannātha. Revatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. A child and he does not care for his toys. He is fully engaged only in Jagannātha. Wherever he sits down, he puts some you know base and puts Jagannātha and makes some sweets and caraṇāmṛta and some flower. He has all . . . (indistinct) . . . very good attachment for Jagannātha worship. Haṁsadūta: It appears to me that this child is based on its very beginning in the house of a Vaiṣṇava or in the company and he bound to turn out to be a pure devotee. It seems to be total attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Rest . . . restless child means very intelligent child. Haṁsadūta: Restless? Prabhupāda: A child who is very restless, or he seems to be, is understood to be very intelligent. But the father and mother does not know how to capture it. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise the sign is restlessness, means he is very intelligent . . . (indistinct) . . . don't you see life of Kṛṣṇa? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: How much restless He? Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mother Yaśodā (laughs) Yaśodāmayī (laughs). This is . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Before we were devotees I was living in a . . . (indistinct) . . . with Dvārkādīśa and his mother. And sometimes we would have kīrtana . He would chant, he would always be very happy, he'd run around and he would always chant, he liked it very much. Prabhupāda: That boy? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . He was always absorbed in his maya. He was never much . . . (indistinct) . . . I think he was attached after Jagannātha that same tendency . . . (indistinct) . . . he was like that always . . . (indistinct) . . . for a long time. Prabhupāda: So they were that morning Sun or a different? Revatīnandana: Well it's not morning Sun . . . (indistinct) . . . New Mexico. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: After morning chānā , morning chānā was Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa and . . . (indistinct) . . . morning . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Mexico . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Mexico there also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I was, I, I went there. Revatīnandana: You went there, I know. I heard about that . . . I think after you had gone. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I went there. The organizer Mr . . .? Devotee (1): Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Godly? Devotee (1): Harir Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Harir. He took me there. Devotee (1): Crazy man (laughter) Prabhupāda: I held kīrtana there. You remember? Haṁsadūta: Ah, yes. He also wrote . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . really? I think Bhakta Rūpa was living in that place at one time. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . Dāmodara? Revatīnandana: This is . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva's wife was there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . apologized . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Possibly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: But you cannot have home here. Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. So why you bother about this temporary home? Rather do some hard work for going back to home, back to Godhead. That should be taken. Actually you have no home. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Just as if . . . (indistinct) . . . at any time. Prabhupāda: Eh? And why should we bother about home? It is not possible. That: tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido ( SB 1.5.18). *Bhāgavata says that you cry for that thing which is not available by wandering from Brahmaloka down to the Pātāla*-loka. Actually wondering perpetually and you do not know why you are wandering, why you are changing your dress and I am called eternal. Why it is in this diseased condition? They do not think like that. Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just like a foolish patient he is suffering. He is thinking he is all right. "It is all right." Yes there are so many diseased fellows, they don't take seriously the disease. They maybe all right. Similarly this is a disease to change body one after another. But they are . . . they do not know what to do and if they know, "All right, disease is all right." This is knowledge. So you can begin ārati . (break) So business means you are want to earn money. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And what you will do with money? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Come here, come here . . . what you will do with money? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sit down. Do you think you can help the poor? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): This material . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How many poor men you can feed? Devotee (2): Not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . kīrtana . Prabhupāda: There are so many institutions, the problem of poor is solved? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All over the world there are hundreds and thousands of institutions for giving enlightenment but there are millions and millions of poor men still. How do you think, that it will be solved? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can do but the problem will be not solved. That is my consideration. You do your best but the problem will not be solved. There are the whole.. You are thinking because you are maunānīhānilāyāmā (SB 11.18.17) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. You are . . . (indistinct) . . . poor therefore you are thinking that I shall be able to do something to my . . . but these American boy, they are the richest country. They have not solved this problem. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . solve the problem. Prabhupāda: They are in it. You see if the problem is not solved then your aim of life is not very solid. You say that after earning money, "I shall try to solve this problem." Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Individually or collectively. In USA in the universities they are well equipped, very big, big buildings and nothing is wanted. But they are producing all confused students. In England there is a scarcity of educated laborers. They are no more interested even for education. The young boy. So in England especially I have seen, they have to employ so many Indians for high respectable posts. In London the civil officer, or civil servant is a Bengali gentleman. That means they are finding difficulty in having their own men for responsible posts. They are no more. They are no more interested for education. They are so much disappointed. Although there is free education, free medical help, in England. People are still not satisfied. So that is not possible. You cannot make the people of the world happy by your plan. People can be happy only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my point. So you ask your father to spare this house for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will become a prominent secretary. To preach this cult here. (aside) Why you are going? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: People are . . . eh? Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa comes by kāruṇika . Ye to bohot din se hai. (This has been present since a long time.) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Ye to Bhagavad Gita me jaise bataya hai . . . (This is as described in Bhagavad Gītā . . .) that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), vivasvate imaṁ yogaṁ Ye yoga, Bhagavad Gita jo pehle . . . Suryaloka pe jo raja hai, Vivasvan unko bataya hai. To wo to . . . (This yoga , Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken to Vivasvān, the king of the Sun-planet. So that is . . .) Devotee (3): Nahi, ye discipline jo apne shuru ki hai . . . (No, this discipline that you have started . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye jo char hai . . . (These four which are there . . .) Devotee (3): (indistinct Hindi) . . . Iske pehle bhi kuch . . . (indistinct) . . . (Before this was there . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha iske pehle Caitanya Mahāprabhu, uske pehle Kṛṣṇa. (Yes, before this Caitanya Mahāprabhu, before that Kṛṣṇa.) Himself. Devotee (3): Ye activity, ye movement abhi apne char sal pehle . . . (This activity, this movement was started by you 4 years back . . .) Prabhupāda: Shuru kiya tha humara . . . (It was started by my . . .) Guru Mahārāja. But it has come into prominence since 4 or 5 years . . . Abhi kya padhta hai? (What are you studying now?) Devotee (3): B.A final Prabhupāda: B.A final that's nice. What is your subject? Devotee (3): Economics, political science . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I had also economics in my day. Economics and philosophy. And philosophy. Devotee (3): Pardon? Prabhupāda: And philosophy. Devotee (3): Philosophy also. Prabhupāda: No I took. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Economics and philosophy. Metaphysics, psychology, ethics. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you read all those western philosophers, like Descartes and Hume and Kant. Did you not read them? What did you think? Prabhupāda: No, I read, Kant says like this . . . (indistinct) . . . says like this, theory. My professor Dr. Urquhart he was a staunch Christian. He was talking the Bible also. He did not believe in karma. Christians cannot believe in karma because after this life finished there is no more life. Is it not? Devotee (2): No future life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): They generally say . . . there is no rebirth. Prabhupāda: So, there is no karma ? Revatīnandana: It's either heaven or hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . either you go to heaven or you go to hell forever. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is all right. Because hell means you again glide down to the cycle of birth and death and that is hell. And heaven means to promote yourself to the kingdom of God. In that sense it is all right. You take one chance, human form of life, so you can make this life utilized either for going back to home, or again you come down to the repetition of birth and death. That is hell. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In that sense it is nice. Revatīnandana: The difference is that they say once you have gone down . . . Prabhupāda: It is not very explicit. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the rudimentary idea is there. Either hell or heaven. It is a choice. You make your choice for heaven or you make your choice for hell. That we say also. Mānuṣaṁ durlabhaṁ . . . tad apy arthadam adhruvam (SB 7.6.1). It is very rare life, although it will be finished but it can give you the greatest benediction. So we should take that benediction otherwise you go to hell . . . Kya ye thik nahi hai? Nahi. (Is it not correct? No.) (pause) Can economics science help a man to improve his economic condition? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But there are many instances that a man tries for better life, throughout the whole life. But sometimes it is not successful. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . on condition. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: And sometimes it is found that a man, especially in Marwari community. They do not know any economics education . . . (indistinct) . . . and they earn and millions and millions. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (laughs) why it has been so? He never went to college to study economics but he knows so nice how to utilize economics. There are many amongst Marwari and they cannot find even a chair but millionaire. They earn money. Yes . . . my point is that even if you don't study economics you can become very rich man. There are many instances. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: So why should you waste your time in that? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Tal*-labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18 Bhāgavata says that, just like duḥkha , duḥkha means—distress. If you're destined to suffer some distress even if you don't try for it—it will come. Similarly if you're destined to have some profit, if you don't try for it it will come. Nobody tries for distress, why does it come? Therefore the natural conclusion should be, even if I don't try for economic development. If I am destined it will come. Therefore I should. Save my energy for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is right conclusion. I should save energy for. Collect all energy that is in my possession for utilization in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So far distress and happiness is concerned whatever it may come, that is all right. Either distress or happiness, don't mind. Bhaja budam tattvavit , you understand Sanskrit? Budam is . . . (indistinct) . . . let this happen. I am not concerned with that, let it happen. I'm concerned with the develop my Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Pitaji ka kya idea hai? (What is your father's idea?) Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: About this song. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And for us? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . taken a flat in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): He's taken a flat in Bombay. And . . . (indistinct) . . . buy the flat in Bombay . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kidhar rehta hai Bombay me? (Where does he stay in Bombay?) Devotee (3): Apollo Bunder Prabhupāda: Bori Bunder Devotee (3): Nahi, Apollo Bunder. (No, Apollo Bunder.) Prabhupāda: Apollo Bunder! Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Nice . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . Apollo Bunder is the first*-class spot. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is very respectable part. They are planning in their own way . . . (break) . . . office. He has been given to copy affairs, rough account book to make a copy. So he's doing. Now after some time he is in the, what is called? Toilet room. So the boss saw that he was in the toilet room two hours ago and again he is still. So he became angry. "Ah this man is always in the toilet room. What he is . . . ?" He asked him, "What you are doing here? I saw you two hours ago." "Sir I am finding out one fly." "Fly. Why?" "Sir in the rough account book there is a fly pressed there. So I'll have to do that." (laughter). So it will be difficulty (laughter). To catch this fly. (laughter). Whole day . . . (laughter) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you are excellent copies. Please go on and don't enjoy the (laughter) text reply (laughter). Sabarmati, you did not hear this study? It is very interesting. Machi mara clerk. (Fly killing clerk.) (laughter). Mātājī: Fly killing clerk? *Prabhupāda: Clerk. Clerk engaged in killing a fly. (laughter). One of our class friends (laughs). Yes, the Professor, Dr. Kalidasnath he dictated, "Roman one." And some dictators. Some history notes that is in our higher*-class. So one of our class friends in the examination he has also written, "Roman one." "Roman one" means this 1. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. But he has written, "Roman one," and exactly the word. "Roman one," 1, 2, exactly he wanted. He didn't have experience. So after the examination over, so (laughs) Dr Kalidas, he saw that this boy has simply crammed. He . . . So where is Mr. Womanwant so he could not understand Woman want (laughs). Then it was explained that he had so nicely crammed the whole. He had written "Roman one," "Roman one." Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. And our . . . one of our teachers he was also . . . he told us one story in that class. At that time there was no electric fan. Electric fan, so there was hand driven fan. Big, big . . . When and by . . . (indistinct) . . .? Pully, pully? Haṁsadūta: Pulley. Prabhupāda: Yes. Servant was engaged. So some professor, English professor. In those days all the professors were English. This is statement of my teacher. So he might have said, punkha khicho. (pull the fan.) Punkha means fan, khicho means pull on. The servant was a little flat, so the prof . . . the punkha khicho was go on with the fan. So in the notebook also . . . he has written punkha khicho, (pull the fan,) . . . then when he was comparing with other class friends. "Hey what is this? Punkha khicho. (Pull the fan.)" (laughs). And so there are many instances like that. Not known, Pradyumna has written, not known but somebody has written. So he has also composed, not known. He had no . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That if it is not to be mentioned. Not known. Don't try for any page number but he has written, "not known." Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The same punkha khicho. (pull the fan.) That means this mechanical worker they are senseless. They do not use their senses. Less intelligent. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . yes. Gaḍurikā*-pravāha-nyāya. (One man is doing and the other man is simply following.) (break) Dictaphone and I am getting an impression. So if I hear about it I can get the same impression. So knowledge about this microphone, either I see or hear—it has the same balance. Haṁsadūta: But by, by seeing it . . . Prabhupāda: Just like suppose if you see some friend that he is such and such. His body is useless. Similarly the same description is given to you, you hear it, so the impression is not the same? Haṁsadūta: Yes, some of the time. Prabhupāda: But on the other hand all your senses are imperfect. So any impression you get by these senses they are imperfect. By exercising your senses, whatever knowledge . . . Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Independently. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever knowledge you gather that is imperfect. Either you see . . . but foolish people they give more stress on seeing. He does not know my seeing is also imperfect. That is his position. He wants to gives stress on seeing but he is ignorant that his seeing power is also defective. What he will do by seeing? Just like Lord Caitanya when He was in Benares. Benares, Sanātana Gosvāmī came he asked, "Please give me a host. There is a Vaiṣṇava bring him here." And Sanātana Gosvāmī was more than a month, he was walking on the . . . on foot. He has no nice dress and there was hair, moustaches. And this Candraśekhara Ācārya came back, "Oh I didn't see any Vaiṣṇava there." "So there is no man?" "Yes there is a man but he is a . . . he appears to be a Muslim." So what is the value of his seeing? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu is seeing him, Vaiṣṇava. He is seeing him as a Muslim. It's clear? So what is the father seeing, that hearing is power . . . most important. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that he is a Vaiṣṇava. That is most powerful. By seeing he could not understand a Vaiṣṇava. But by hearing he had actual appreciation of Sanātana. But hearing from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that is the point. Therefore knowledge, hearing from authorized persons is all perfect. Not by seeing, not by touching, not by licking, not by tasting. No. Anyway you lose your senses to get real experience, its defect. But if you simply hear from the right authority that is perfect. That is our profit going. Our profit of knowledge therefore perfect. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We are hearing from Kṛṣṇa—about Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge of God is perfect. We are not perfect but our knowledge is perfect because we are hearing from the Supreme Perfect. They do not understand. "So this man is like me imperfect, how he can say, 'perfect knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, or God.'" That they cannot understand. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: This description is śruti*-pramāṇa , therefore as soon as there is evidence in the śruti , Vedas . According to Vedic system it is accepted, perfect. Revatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . was making yogurt. He had some milk that he had boiled and there was a bag on the table, a plastic bag . . . (indistinct) . . . and a thick white substance . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's suns, then why so many combination of suns cannot make the night day? Haṁsadūta: They will say it is too far away. Prabhupāda: Eh? Even if it is too far away so many suns. Devotee (1): And all of them bigger than ours. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . takes light and breaks it into it's respective colors. Prabhupāda: Hm. Revatīnandana: And you get from each Star a little different spectrum . . . (indistinct) . . . spectrum is different . . . (indistinct) . . . different saw, different chemical arrangement made in Hawaii. They have sun. But when he told me then I could understand . . . (indistinct) . . . they have different types of mirrors. Each mirror reflects the light a little differently. Prabhupāda: We have got authority from Kṛṣṇa. He says: nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī (Bg 10.21). *So this stars are just like moons, the light is reflected. If compared to the moon, why not in the star? He could have said, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁsūrya . He has not said. So I cannot take the so*-called scientists more authoritative than Kṛṣṇa. Our method is simple, we can challenge anyone, by hearing from Kṛṣṇa . . . and so many millions of suns they cannot make the . . . and one sun makes the . . . so brilliant that all other planes or so-called suns are covered. They cannot be seen even. Revatīnandana: It was a good lesson because I was attached to that theory. Prabhupāda: Eh? There are many. Revatīnandana: Then I had to detach, once I was detached I could see that either way would make sense. But . . . (indistinct) . . . the Vedic authority . . . (indistinct) . . . light . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation A Hindi -- December 5, 1970, Indore Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda has been speaking at the Gita Bhavan in Indore and this is the 2nd morning that he has spoken. Prabhupāda: Renunciation and knowledge automatically follow bhakti . Guest: Devotees do not need to try for knowledge and renuniation, these things are acquired automatically for them. *Prabhupāda: That is what . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is the vairāgya*-vān Just like renunciant ( vairāgya-vān ), and scholar ( jñānī ), śūdra : *It does not make any difference that somebody is a householder, somebody is sannyāsī . Someone is a brāhmin , someone is a śūdra —these things are not there in bhakti*-mārga . Whoever knows Kṛṣṇa, understands this science, he is a guru : yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā , tattva-vettā , kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā , he is a guru . In our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya , the idea that one will be great by becoming a brāhmin and sannyāsī is not there. Though it is a social idea. But bhagavat-bhakti . . . Guest: What will you take now? Prabhupāda: What? *(aside) There is not, no coffee . . . (indistinct) . . . I simply want, we will all go together with chanting Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Guest: In Ahmedabad, 5 to 6 strangers were dancing. Whenever 15 ser butter was being brought, whoever got it on their heads, they ate every bite of it. Jeldi kaldo malayo usane . Everyday there had a discourse on the life of Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: Good . . . (indistinct) Guest: (indistinct) . . . still they do not understand. Prabhupāda: They will understand, by constant hearing they will understand. Guest: They will understand by constant hearing. Still in their minds . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That will also happen by constant hearing. Guest: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Paraṁ vijayate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam (CC. Antya 20.12). The dirt on the mirror of the mind will all be washed away by constant hearing saṅkīrtana . So this is the process. Somehow or other he should be in saṅkīrtana . Then everything will be all right. First class. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . one who is inquisitive goes to guru , sādhu guru . Kṛṣṇa. One does not need to go to sādhu guru for asking, "What is the market price of this commodity? What is this thing? Or this fellow is sick so what is its medicine?" No. For this, he has to go to a physician. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Topmost. Topmost subject. The topmost subject is, the topmost subject uttama*-viṣayā means udgata tama . The worldly subject matters are the tama subject, tamasi mā , tamasi mā . Tamasic (ignorance). What would happen with these worldly materialistic questions surrounding the political state of affairs, what will happen to us? These are not questions. These are moral questions. The topmost question is, the topmost question is, not the political or materialistic, only bhagavat subject. Topmost. Guest: Not mine. Prabhupāda: What? Guest: Not mine. Prabhupāda: Not mine. Yes. Not mineness but transcendental. Guru is needed for that inquiry. If he is eager to understand that higher thing then he needs guru . Otherwise one does not need guru . Guru is not something that you have a guru by fashion. No. Scriptures say: "No, then you do not need guru ". You are not prepared for inquirying topmost subject. Therefore you do not need guru now. Guest: We think that by having a guru , we reach to Vaikuṇṭha. By having this guru . . . Prabhupāda: For going Vaikuṇṭha only, one has to have a guru . But guru should also understand Vaikuṇṭha. And the disciple should also be really eager to go to Vaikuṇṭha, and nothing else. Then it is all right. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to home. Back to Godhead . That is why we kept the title of our magazine— Back to Godhead . Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This path of devotion is . . . without knowledge one can not perform bhakti . Just see, the meaning of bhakti is bhagavat*-bhajana . If he does not know God, then how can he do bhagavat-bhajana ? Where is the question of . . . if you do not know who the God is then where is bhagavat-bhajana ? And to understand who the God is requires much knowledge. But there is not a single university. How much knowledge is required just to understand a materialistic thing? Much knowledge is needed to become a lawyer, and to understand God, God says: Despite being pure, very few people understand God. So how much knowledge is needed to understand God? Without being a jñānī , how will he understand God? And without understanding God, what is bhakti ? It is not bhakti , it is sentiment. Bhakti is practical. Just like Arjuna is addressed by God as— bhakto ' si . Arjuna was not a sentimental person. He was practically a warrior, a kṣatriya . So bhakti is not a sentiment, a feeling no. It is practical. Guest: But by bhakti can we not . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? But bhakti is practical. Guest: . . . knowledge. Through process of bhakti can we not understand? Prabhupāda: No. One who is not jñānī can not reach to the stage of bhakti . Therefore, there are 9 Canto's in Bhāgavatam to reach to the stage of bhakti; *just to understand who the God is. The professional bhagavat reciters readily jump to rasa*-lila in 10th Canto by leaving aside the 9 Canto's. They have not understood God, what will they understand about God’s rasa-lila ? The process is . . . there are 9 Cantos, beginning with: janmādy asya yataḥ , just to understand who the God is. It means beginning from Vedānta . The knowledge of God begins from Vedānta . This is the thing. *Guest: Then what about Vedānta bhakti*-mārga ? Prabhupāda: What? *Guest: All Vedas are towards bhakti*-mārga . Prabhupāda: Yes: vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15). What is the meaning of Veda ? To understand God. So by reading Veda , scriptures, following Vedānta , one who has correctly understood God, bhakti is for him. But he has not understood God, what is God? "Everybody is God, I am God, he is God." Such person has not understood God. How does he know bhakti ? It is meaningless. Guest: So Veda means knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge. Full knowledge. What is Kṛṣṇa? Guest: But then people who are ignorant . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . and who have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Then they are not up . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not up. If, if actually they are serious then Kṛṣṇa from within will give him knowledge. God is saying: *Unto those who are doing bhagavat*-bhajana according to scriptural injunctions by the order of Guru , with love: prīti-pūrvakam , buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ . God Himself gives them intelligence. And elsewhere: God is residing in your hearts. When you are serious, when you are serious to understand Him, You can not cheat Him. And as soon as you receive within the ear, actually for Him, then He will give you knowledge. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That’s also. We want to be serious: prīti*-pūrvakam , bhajatāṁ . God is prīti (love). Keep God and no interest in anything else. Guest: Only devotion to Him . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . with Lord. Prabhupāda: God understands that whether you got prīti for him or through His media you have got prīti (for) something else. That is not difficult for Him to understand. He is cleverer than anyone. Guest: (laughing) who gives the knowledge for . . . (indistinct) *Guest (2): That is only the vyabhicāreṇa*-bhakti . *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāreṇa*-bhakti . *If one has worldly aspirations through medium of God, then it is karma . "I want to become one with a nirvisesa Brahman through medium of God" then it has become jñāna . So jñāna*-karma-anāvṛtam . So it should be free from jñāna and karma . It should not be contaminated with jñāna and karma . Pure bhakti . What is pure bhakti ? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ , doing bhagavat-bhajana favourably. How will God be satisfied? Just like gopīs, they did not care jñāna and karma . They simply wanted how Lord Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. This is vṛndāvana-bhāva . Yaśodāmayī. *Guest: Viraha*-bhāva . Prabhupāda: What? *Guest: Viraha*-bhāva . Prabhupāda: Viraha or whatever it is, their only feeling is how our Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Jñānam . Be it vatsalya*-bhāva or sakhya-bhāva . . . (indistinct) . . . there is vatsalya-bhāva . Everyone’s wish is to see how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. It is not like how I will be happy through Kṛṣṇa. That is kāma . Through Kṛṣṇa we will fulfill our purpose. That is lust. It is called lust. And we have no purpose but how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That is love. This is the difference between lust and love. So there needs love, not lust. Lust also . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody wants to fulfill his desires, then God will fulfill. For Him there is no difficulty. But that is not pure bhakti . That is not pure bhakti . Guest: They have sin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right, that has been accepted. *They are not called pure devotees, they are called su*-kṛtino . Those who have desires for kama-siddhi , jñāna-siddhi or jijñāsā-siddhi through the medium of God, they are not called pure devotees. They are called pious. Su-kṛtino means pious. Because one who is mahā-pāpī (very sinful), he will not come to God. But these people have come to God for asking something That means they are pious, because they have come to God. While going to God they must get some status. So these four— ārto arthārthī jijñāsur , and jñānī —those who are in distress, those who want money, those who are inquisitive, and jñānī —have come to God and so they are pious. Guest: Want purī or kulcha ? Prabhupāda: No. I want kulcha only. Mātājī: Want kulcha , then it is all right. Prabhupāda: You want to take purī ? All right, give him purī . Mātājī: Kulcha is being prepared slowly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes give purī . Guest: Capātī is there, take it. Prabhupāda No, purī , purī . Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda Yes. Jñānī*-devotees , just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī—a jñānī-bhakta . *Guest: Jñānī*-bhakta . Prabhupāda: One who becomes a devotee after being a jñānī will be a pakka bhakta . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? Oh yes certainly. The purpose of knowledge is to understand God. One who has understood God and has engaged himself in service of God is better than a jñānī . Jñānī is simply trying to understand God. But this one has already engaged in service. One is applying for Government service, and the other has already engaged in Government service. So who is better? Guest: One who has engaged. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Bhakti is stronger than knowledge. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? But knowledge will be there by having bhakti . For a pure devotee.., For example you want to do a business to acquire 1 crore rupees, and if somehow you have acquired 1 crore rupees , then it includes 10 lakhs . Similarly if you have become a devotee, then it includes knowledge. Guest: That was the point I was asking in the beginning. *Prabhupāda Yes, therefore the Bhāgavatam says vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7) If one is engaged in devotion to Lord Vāsudeva, then: He gradually acquires jñāna and vairagya . Ahaituki . No purpose. To acquire simple knowledge one has to read and hear a lot. One has to read Veda , Vedānta etc. But if one has become a bhakta . . . (indistinct) The Guru of our Guru Mahārāja did not know how to write even his name. And our Guru Mahārāja . . . at that time nobody was a scholar like him, and he accepted him as his guru . Why? He was speaking Veda , Vedānta . So he was: svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (CC Madhya 17.136), yasya deve parā bhaktir . *One would be familiar with all such knowledge by having bhagavat*-bhakti . He is not bereft of knowledge. God Himself says: teṣām evānukampārtham . Who is a better jñānī than one to whom God gives knowledge by His mercy? Our knowledge is through hearing you or him, but he is hearing from God Himself. See, who will be a better jñānī than him? Guest: Practical knowledge. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: For a devotee, a pure devotee, he is not bereft of knowledge. Have you understood? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: God Himself is making him jñānī . Guest: "By remembering Me", it is said in *Gītā* , "By remembering Me". *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is there in buddhi*-yoga . God gives him intelligence. And to whom God gives knowledge, who will be a better jñānī —(intelligent) than him? Bhakti is all inclusive. And the knowledge on God includes knowledge on Brahman and knowledge on Paramātmā. *Tattva , tattva , the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is nondual. And that Absolute Truth is Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, these things are non*-dual substance ( advaita-jñāna tattva ). Brahman, Paramātmā *Knowledge. Knowledge. Brahma*-jñāna , after that paramātmā-jñāna , after that bhagavat-jñāna . One who has bhagavat-jñāna has brahma-jñāna and paramātmā-jñāna . One who has only brahma-jñāna does not have bhagavat-jñāna . One who has paramātmā-jñāna also does not have bhagavat-jñāna . *Guest: Brahma*-jñāna . What is the meaning of brahma-jñāna ? *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-jñāna means like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun (big). But both of them are light. Guest: (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: He thinks that this ordinary light is bigger, and considers the source of this light to be smaller. Guest: (indistinct) . . . correct . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Brahma niṣkalam ananta . They consider the infinite impersonal Brahman to be the biggest, and consider the source from which it comes to be smaller. *Guest: Just like Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda Knowledge This knowledge— brahma*-jñāna . *Guest: (indistinct) . . . bhagavat*-jñāna. *Prabhupāda Brahma*-jñāna , paramātmā-jñāna . Paramātmā-jñāna is for yogī , and brahma-jñāna is for jñānī . and for devotees it is bhagavat-jñāna . So Bhagavān, Brahman, Paramātmā. Guest: Are they different stages? Prabhupāda: What? Guest: Are they different stages? *Prabhupāda: Different features. Different features. Just like sun-planet, sun-god and sun-light. Sun-light is brahma-jñāna , and sun-planet is paramātmā-jñāna , and sun*-god is bhagavat-jñāna . Guest: Very good. I see. *Prabhupāda: All three are one. One only, but has different stages. So first stage is brahma*-jñāna . *Brahma*-bhūta : brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). *He is very distressed due to inebrities of this world, and after acquiring brahma*-jñāna he is happy: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . The soul has become happy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . He is liberated. Guest: Then comes second. *Prabhupāda Then second. Paramātmā. Then bhagavat*-jñāna. Guest: (indistinct) . . . it is the same thing as removing 1, and . . . Prabhupāda: Zero remains. This is what is happening. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Only zero. Just eat zeros. This is all. And here it is working, so zero is discarded and only Kṛṣṇa is taken up. 1 is taken up, all zeros are discarded. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). All that in the name of religion without God is called kaitava-dharma . Cheating. Guest: Cheating. *Prabhupāda: Cheating. In his notes, commentary, Śrīdhara Svāmī: atra mokṣa*-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo; *kaitava*-dharma says, this liberated who says I will be liberated, will become one with God, he has also become nirasta . And this is bhakti , which is jñāna-karma-anāvṛtam , there is no tinge of contamination of jñāna and karma . It is pure. Guest: (some sounds) who is that? slowly slowly. *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu . Only with favourable devotion: kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ . That is pure bhakti . And in Nārada-bhakti-sūtra : anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karma . . . eh? No, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ . Free from all designations. All these designations that I am sannyāsī , I am brāhmin , these are also upâdhis . "I am Parsi, I am Hindu, I am Christian", these are all designations. So: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ , when one is free from all these designations, tat-paratvena nirmalam , only with bhagavat-bhāva , pure. At that time the situation you are in . . . then: At that time the service you are rendering with your purified senses to the master of the senses, hṛṣīkeśa , is called bhakti . As long as these designations are there that, "I am a family member, I look after this, this is my responsibility, this and that", he is not free from designations. Guest: It is difficult to give up . . . Prabhupāda: Yes it is difficult but there is no way. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi . When I went to Europe and America for preaching bhagavat*-bhakti , if I had upādhi that I have to preach this Hindu-dharma then it would not have been successful. This is full with upādhi; "I identify myself to be a Hindu". Yes. Then there is . . . not accepted. They say we got Christinity why should I accept your religion. Instead, Kṛṣṇa is presented, free from all designation. That is why it is successful. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. If you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism. They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism or Mohammedanism. We are talking on the science of God. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh they have accepted that. "Yes, here is the right concept." Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes back to God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . I have distributed Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: I shall arrange to distribute, I am getting for 50,000 Back to Godhead . 50,000, I shall distribute. Guest: Telling him that I made it a proper use. That is what I . . . Prabhupāda: You people. We are, sarvopādhi ; Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is free from all designations. Kṛṣṇa. We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian, as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of these. Kṛṣṇa says, claims that, "Every living entity is my part and parcel, I am the seed giving father". Therefore it has become accepted. I never said that, "You become a Hindu." He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy. What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God? That they are doing. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But here at our place, why Kṛṣṇa is considered as only God? . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore they are puzzled, although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa . . . this is also answered by God: avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). Rascal, donkey. He thinks that Kṛṣṇa is a man, a human being. He has been given a title; he is called jñānī . Guest: Mūḍhā Prabhupāda Mūḍhā means, "Donkey". Guest: (laughter) *Prabhupāda: How does a donkey understand Kṛṣṇa? To understand Kṛṣṇa one needs to have many yoga *-practices. Yatatām api siddhānāṁ (BG 7.3), "One who has gained siddhi will understand Kṛṣṇa." It takes many life times: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). *Otherwise if one becomes rascal, and considers Kṛṣṇa like this then that is jñāna*-upādhi . Why should we waste many lifetimes, if we have to come to Kṛṣṇa only after many lifetimes, then why not we take Kṛṣṇa now? Speaking very important thing. Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There is no question of, "Should be". When Kṛṣṇa says: "I will give you protection", why, "Should be"? You don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says: ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa’s capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): To understand Kṛṣṇa he knows that he is beyond the capacity to understand Him. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says: "I am everything". Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. That is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is a different thing, another stage. That is more confidential. First of all there is surrender. Guest: Surrender. Prabhupāda: First of all you enter this house or this room, then you ask how can I serve you? That is different. First of all there is no surrender, and without surrender—full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. Guest: No entrance. *Prabhupāda: No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā*-dveṣa samutthena . . . sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27), sarva-yoni . This material world, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Creation. They are all the living entities who have come into this created world they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are given the chance, "All right you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I give you facility. You want to become Brahmā, all right you become Brahmā, and you want to become the worm of stool, as you wish." This is clear. So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing bodies. This is material world. And when comes back again Back to Godhead : Then he has not got to come back. *So we have to prepare for that position. How to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourselves in His service. Then the question is either as mother, as friend or . . . that will be considered latter on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is a condition: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66), "You surrender unto me fully giving up all your other engagements, then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi , mokṣayiṣyāmi is nothing for kṛṣṇa-bhakta; mokṣa or liberation. He is doing, He will look after you. (aside) Ready. All right. *Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda invited Baba Bal*-Mukund and Vairagya Baba and . . . (indistinct) . . . in Bombay and said Sunday and in the lecture, last two lectures recorded in the morning of the 4th and 5th at Gita Bhavan in Indore and . . . (indistinct) . . . speaking was . . . (indistinct) . . . in the room of Baba Bal-Mukund at the Gita Bhavan and just after the lecture on the 5th. Present now with His Divine Grace in Indore just now, Himavatī and Hansadutta and Revatīnandana brahmacārī . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I am willing . . . (end) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION: हंसदूत: प्रभुपाद जी गीता भवन इंदौर में बोल रहे हैं और यह दूसरा दिन है जब उन्होंने सुबह प्रवचन दिया। प्रभुपाद: भक्ति है तो वैराग्य और ज्ञान हो जाता है। अतिथि: भक्त को ज्ञान वैराग्य नहीं करना है वो तो अपने आप आता है। प्रभुपाद: (अस्पष्ट) कृष्ण ज्ञान वैराग्य। किबा विप्रा, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नय येइ कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेत्ता, सेइ 'गुरु' हया (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य ८.१२८) इसमें कोई फ़र्क नहीं पड़ता है कोई गृहस्थी है, कोई संन्यासी है, कोई ब्राह्मण है, कोई शूद्र है — ये विचार भक्ति मार्ग में नहीं है। यही साइंस सब समझता है — वह गुरु है। यही कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेता, तत्त्व-वेता, कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेता, वही गुरु है। हमारे वैष्णव-संप्रदाय में ये सब विचार नहीं हैं। ब्राह्मण होने से ही बड़ा हो जाएंगे, संन्यासी होने से — ये सब सामाजिक है। परंतु भगवत भक्ति होने से... अतिथि: क्या लेंगे आप? प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: कॉफी नहीं... खाली इतना ही चाहता हूँ — राधा कृष्णा बोलो साथ में छलकाकर। अतिथि: वहाँ अहमदाबाद में ५-६ अंजान आदमी १५ सेर मठा लाते हैं — वहीं फोड़-फोड़ के खाते हैं। जल्दी कर लो मलयो, उसने हर रोज़ महाप्रभु का — ये कृपा होता है। अतिथि: बहुत अच्छा। अतिथि: तब भी समझते ही नहीं हैं। अतिथि: समझेंगे, समझेंगे। सुनते-सुनते समझेंगे। अतिथि: समझेंगे धीरे-धीरे। अभी उनके मस्तिष्क में... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह भी सुनते-सुनते होगा। अतिथि: हाँ। प्रभुपाद: परं विजयते श्रीकृष्ण-संकीर्तनम् चित्त दर्पण में जो मैल है वो सब निकल जाएगा। शृण्वतां स्वकथाः कृष्णः पुण्य-श्रवण-कीर्तनः हृद्यन्तःस्थो ह्यभद्राणि विधुनोति सुहृत्सताम् (भागवत १.२.१७) यही विधि है — जो किसी तरह कीर्तन में सहयोग करेंगे, सब ठीक हो जाएगा। और क्या है? अतिथि: चैंटिंग जो है — वो बैठ के कराई जाए? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: जैसे यमुना माई... बड़ा मस्त लगता है। प्रभुपाद: ...जो जिज्ञासु है वो गुरु का बात — गुरु, साधु, गुरु। कृष्ण, गुरु, साधु, गुरु के पास जाकर पूछना चाहिए। और ये नहीं है कि बाज़ार के जैसा — इसका क्या भाव है? ये सब पूछने के लिए साधु-गुरु के पास जाने की ज़रूरत नहीं। इसका क्या दवाई है? — बीमार है? नहीं। उसके लिए डॉक्टर के पास जाना चाहिए। अतिथि: ..... प्रभुपाद: नहीं, नहीं, जाओ — उत्तम विषय। उत्तम विषय मतलब उद्गत तम। ये जो दुनिया का विषय है — वो तम है। तमसो मा, तमसो मा — तमसिक। ये दुनिया का भौतिक प्रश्न है। ये जो राजनीतिक परिस्थिति है — इसका क्या होगा? ये जो प्रश्न है — ये भौतिक प्रश्न है। उत्तम प्रश्न, उत्तम प्रश्न — कोई जागृत, कोई भौतिक प्रश्न नहीं — केवल भगवद गीता। अतिथि: मेरे नहीं... प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: मरते नहीं हाँ, मेरे नहीं केवल पर ट्रान्सेंडेंटल। जिज्ञासा — इसलिए गुरु का ज़रूरत है, जो कि वो अप्राकृत वस्तु को समझाने के लिए प्रकट हुए। इसलिए गुरु का ज़रूरत है। नहीं तो गुरु का कोई ज़रूरत नहीं है। गुरु कोई ऐसी चीज़ नहीं है जो गुरु बना गया शौक़ से — नहीं। शास्त्र में तुम्हारा गुरु का ज़रूरत नहीं है, तुम्हारा उत्तम विषय में प्रश्न करने के लिए तैयार नहीं है तो तुम्हारा गुरु का ज़रूरत नहीं है। अतिथि: बहुत लोग ये सोचते हैं — गुरु करके वैकुण्ठ में चले जाएंगे, इसलिए गुरु चाहिए। प्रभुपाद: वैकुण्ठ में जाने के लिए गुरु करना चाहिए। परंतु गुरु भी वैकुण्ठ को समझने वाला हो और शिष्य भी वास्तव में वैकुण्ठ में ही जाना चाहता है — और कुछ नहीं — तब ठीक है। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ — Back to Home, "बैक टू गॉडहेड। इसलिए हम लोग पत्रिका का नाम रखा है "बैक टू गॉडहेड। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: भक्ति मार्ग जो है न — बिना ज्ञान के भक्ति नहीं होती। देखिए, भक्ति का अर्थ होता है भगवत भजन। भगवान का जो ज्ञानी है — तो भगवत धर्म क्या होगा? जो चीज़ आपको मालूम ही नहीं है — भगवान क्या चीज़ है — तो उसका भजन आप क्या करेंगे? और भगवत क्या चीज़ है — समझने के लिए काफ़ी ज्ञान की ज़रूरत है। एक भी यूनिवर्सिटी नहीं है — एक भौतिक वस्तु को समझने के लिए कितना ज्ञान की ज़रूरत होती है? एक वकील बनने के लिए कितना ज्ञान की ज़रूरत होती है? और भगवान को समझने...? और भगवान कहते हैं: मनुष्याणां सहस्रेषु कश्चिद् यतति सिद्धये यतताम् अपि सिद्धानां कश्चिन् मां वेत्ति तत्त्वतः (भगवद गीता ७.३) प्रभुपाद: शुद्ध होते हुए भी कोई-कोई भगवान को समझता है। वो भगवान को समझने के लिए कितना ज्ञान का ज़रूरत है। बिना ज्ञानी हुए कैसे भगवान को समझेंगे? कैसे? और भगवान को बिना समझे भक्ति कैसे होगी? भक्ति कोई भावुकता नहीं है — भक्ति प्रैक्टिकल है। अर्जुन को भक्तों सी। अर्जुन कोई भावुक नहीं थे — वो योद्धा थे, वो प्रैक्टिकल थे। तो भक्ति भावुकता नहीं है — ये प्रैक्टिकल है। अतिथि: क्या भक्ति से हम नहीं? प्रभुपाद: हँ, भक्ति प्रैक्टिकल है। अतिथि: ज्ञान — क्या हम भक्ति की प्रोसेस से समझ सकते हैं? प्रभुपाद: नहीं। भक्ति के बिना जो ज्ञानी नहीं है वो भक्ति तक पहुँचा ही नहीं। इसलिए भक्ति तक पहुँचने के लिए भागवत में ९ स्कंध हैं खाली भगवान क्या चीज़ है समझाने के लिए। बाकी ये ९ स्कंध छोड़ करके ये जो प्रोफेशनल भागवत कहते वो १०वें स्कंध में भगवान के रासलीला में चले जाते हैं। ये लोग भगवान को समझा ही नहीं है तो भगवान का रासलीला क्या समझेगा? ये पद्धति जो है भगवान को केवल समझाने के लिए है। भागवत में ९ स्कंध दिया है जन्माद्यस्य यतः वेदांत से शुरू हुआ है। वेदांत से भगवान को सब ज्ञान यही सब विचार है। अतिथि: तो वेदांत भक्ति मार्ग क्या है? प्रभुपाद: क्या? गेस्ट: वेद भी भक्ति मार्ग है? प्रभुपाद: हाँ वेदैश्च सर्वैरहमेव वेद्योऽहम् (भगवद गीता १५.१५) वेद क्या होता है?भगवान को समझाने के लिए। तो वेद आदि शास्त्र पढ़ करके और वेदांत को अवलोकन करके भगवान को अच्छी तरह से समझा उसके लिए भक्ति है। भगवान भगवान को समझा नहीं सब भगवान हैं मैं भगवान हूँ ये भगवान है वो क्या भगवान को समझा? ऐसी भक्ति का क्या है अर्थ नहीं है। अतिथि: वेद का मतलब ज्ञान है। प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान पूरा ज्ञान कृष्ण क्या है? अतिथि: पर जो लोग इग्नोरेंट हैं? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: जिनके पास समझने की शक्ति नहीं है? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: तो वो लोग नहीं... प्रभुपाद: तो नहीं क्या? अगर वो सीरियस है — तो कृष्ण उनको ज्ञान देंगे। भगवान बोल रहे हैं न एषां सततयुक्तानां भजतां प्रीतिपूर्वकम् (भगवद गीता १०.१०) जो शास्त्र विधि से, गुरु की आज्ञा से, सिर्फ विधिवत भगवत भजन कर रहे हैं प्रीतिपूर्वक, प्रेम से बुद्धियोगं ददामि तम् — उनको भगवान खुद बुद्धियोग देते हैं। और ये — तेषामेवानुकम्पार्थम् अहमज्ञानजं तमः नाशयाम्यात्मभावस्थो ज्ञानदीपेन भावता (भगवद गीता १०.११) भगवान तो आपके हृदय में बैठे ही हैं। जब आप सीरियस हो जाते हैं उनको समझने के लिए तुम उसे धोखा नहीं दे सकते। और जैसे ही आप कान से वास्तव में उसके लिए सुनते हैं तब वह आपको ज्ञान देंगे। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह भी। हमको सीरियस होना चाहिए — प्रीतिपूर्वकम्, भजताम्। भगवान प्रीति (प्रेम) — भगवान को खड़ा करके और कुछ चीज़ सोचो मत। अतिथि: सिर्फ उनकी भक्ति। प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: प्रेम से। प्रभुपाद: गॉड अंडरस्टैंड्स कि आपने उसके लिए प्रीति रखी है या उसके ज़रिए कुछ और चीज़ के लिए प्रीति रखी है। दैट इज नॉट डिफिकल्ट फॉर हिम टू अंडरस्टैंड। ही इज क्लेवरर दैन एनीवन। अतिथि: (हँसते हुए) हू गिव्स द नॉलेज फॉर... (अस्पष्ट) अतिथि: दैट इज ओनली द व्यभिचारेण-भक्ति। प्रभुपाद: अव्यभिचारेण-भक्ति। अन्याभिलाषिता-शून्यं ज्ञानकर्माद्यनावृतम् आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानु- शीलनं भक्तिरुत्तमा (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य १९.१६७) जब भगवान को कोई...दुनिया का — वो कर्म हो गया। भगवान के ज़रिए से — निर्विशेष से — भगवान से एक होना चाहते हैं — तो ज्ञान हो गया। तो — ज्ञान-कर्म-अनावृतम् — ये ज्ञान और कर्म से अनावृत होना चाहिए। इसका दूषितकरण नहीं होना चाहिए — ज्ञान, कर्म का। शुद्ध भक्ति, शुद्ध भक्ति — क्या है? आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानुशीलनम् — केवल अनुकूल भाव से भगवत-भजन करना। भगवान कैसे संतुष्ट हैं — जैसे गोपी लोग। उनको ज्ञान-कर्म का कोई परवाह नहीं। वो केवल चाहते थे — भगवान किस तरह से सुखी हैं बस। ये वृंदावन का भाव है, जैसे यशोदा मइया। अतिथि: विरह भाव। प्रभुपाद: एhhh। अतिथि: विरह भाव। प्रभुपाद: विरह, उनका जो कुछ है — उनका केवल यही भाव है कि हमारा कृष्ण किस तरह से सुखी रहे — बस। अतिथि: वात्सल्य भाव — दोनों साथ में। प्रभुपाद: वात्सल्य भाव हो, सुख भाव हो, दास्य भाव है सबका उद्देश्य है कृष्ण कैसे सुखी हो। कृष्ण को खड़ा करके मैं कैसे सुखी हूँ वो काम है। वो काम है। कृष्ण को खड़ा करके हमारा मतलब क्या है — साधन करने का? वो काम है — उसका नाम काम है। और हमारा कोई मतलब नहीं है केवल कृष्ण किस तरह से सुखी हो वो प्रेम है। ये फ़र्क है काम और प्रेम। प्रेम चाहिए काम नहीं। काम भी ऐसे कैसे? भगवान को खड़े करके अपना कोई कामना सिद्ध करने को चाहते हैं तो भगवान कर देंगे इसमें कोई मुश्किल नहीं है भगवान के लिए। पर वो शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं है। पर वो शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं है। अतिथि: परंतु पास्ट... प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वो सही है — वो भी चलेगा। चतुर्विधा भजन्ते मां जनाः सुकृतिनोऽर्जुन (भगवद गीता ७.१६) उसको शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं बोला है उसको सुकृतिनः बोला है। जो भगवान से कुछ कामना सिद्ध करने को चाहते हैं, कोई ज्ञान सिद्ध करना चाहते हैं, कोई कामना सिद्ध करना चाहते हैं उसको शुद्ध भक्त नहीं बोला जाएगा। उसे सुकृतिनः बोला जाएगा। उसे सुकृतिवान बोला जाएगा। सुकृतिवान यानी पुण्यवान, क्योंकि जो महापापी होते हैं वो भगवान के पास नहीं आते हैं। ये जो भगवान के पास आया है कुछ माँगने के लिए इसका मतलब है कि वो भी सुकृतिमान है क्योंकि आया है भगवान के पास। और भगवान के पास आने से कुछ धन तो ज़रूर मिलेगा। आप तो अच्छा है जिज्ञासु है जो दुखी है, और जो आत्मकामी है, और जो जिज्ञासु है, ज्ञानी है वो भगवान के पास जाते हैं वो सुकृतिवान हैं। अतिथि: आपको पुरी और कुलचा चाहिए? प्रभुपाद: नहीं कुलचा ही ठीक है। माताजी: कुलचा ही ठीक है। प्रभुपाद: आपको पुरी चाहिए? ठीक है उनको पुरी दो। माताजी: हाँ बस आपके वास्ते कुलचा बना रहे फिर... प्रभुपाद: हाँ — पुरी दो। अतिथि: चपाती भी है। प्रभुपाद: नहीं — पुरी, पुरी। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञानी भक्त जैसे शुकदेव गोस्वामी — ज्ञान भक्ति। अतिथि: ज्ञानी भक्त। प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान के बाद जो भक्त होते हैं — वो पक्के होते हैं। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: क्या? ओह हाँ, निश्चित रूप से। ज्ञान का उद्देश्य है भगवान को समझना। जो भगवान को समझ लिया है — भगवान की सेवा में है — वो उत्तम है। ज्ञानी तो भगवान को समझने के लिए कोशिश करना कर रहे हैं। और ये तो काम में लग गया सरकारी नौकरी के लिए कोई दरख़ास्त दे रहा है, और कोई काम में लग गया है — तो कौन बड़ा है? अतिथि: जो लग गया है। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान से भक्ति बड़ी है। अतिथि: ... प्रभुपाद: हाँ भक्ति हो गई तो ज्ञान हो जाएगा। जो शुद्ध भक्त है — जैसे आपका व्यापार करने का उद्देश्य है एक करोड़ मिल रहा है अगर कोई तरह से एक करोड़ मिल गया — तो दस लाख का काम हो ही जाएगा। इसी प्रकार — अगर आप भक्त हो गए — तो ज्ञान का काम हो ही गया। अतिथि: वही बात थी जो मैं शुरुआत में पूछ रहा था। प्रभुपाद: हाँ — इसलिए तो भागवत में कहते हैं: वासुदेवे भगवति भक्ति-योगः प्रयोजितः (भागवत १.२.७) भगवान वासुदेव में अगर भक्ति को लगा दीजिए — तो... जनयत्याशु वैराग्यं ज्ञानं च यद अहैतुकम् (भागवत १.२.७) उसको ज्ञान और वैराग्य अपने आप हो जाता है — और कोई हेतु नहीं है। साधारण से ज्ञान लाभ करने के लिए बहुत कुछ सुनना पढ़ना चाहिए — वेद, वेदांत — बहुत कुछ पढ़ना सुनना चाहिए। बाकी जो भक्त हो गया... यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः यथा-देवे तथा गुरौ तस्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते (श्वेताश्वतर उपनिषद् ६.२३) हमारे गुरुमहाराज के जो गुरु थे — बिल्कुल अपना नाम भी लिखने को नहीं जानते थे। और हमारे गुरुमहाराज जो थे — उस प्रकार विद्वान तो थे ही नहीं। अब उसको गुरु बना लिया — क्यों? सब बात करते थे — सब वेद-वेदांत का बात करते थे। स्वयमेव स्फुरत्यदः (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य १७.१३६) यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः भगवत भक्ति होने से — सब ज्ञान प्रस्फुट हो जाता है। ज्ञान का अभाव नहीं होता है। भगवान खुद कहते हैं — तेषामेवानुकम्पार्थम् जब भगवान जिसपे कृपा करके ज्ञान देता है — उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी कौन हो सकता है? हमारा ज्ञान है — पास से सुन करके, इनसे सुन करके। और वो — खुद भगवान से सुन रहा है — ऋषभदेव। उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी कौन हो सकता है? अतिथि: व्यावहारिक ज्ञान। गेस्ट (२): (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: भक्त जो होता है — उसको शुद्ध भक्त — उसके लिए ज्ञान का अभाव नहीं है। बात समझ आया? अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं — भगवान खुद उसको ज्ञानी बनाते हैं। अतिथि: मुझे स्मरण करके — गीता में बताया गया है — "मुझे स्मरण करके..." प्रभुपाद: हाँ — बुद्धि-योग। जिसको भगवान बुद्धि देते हैं — और जिसको भगवान ज्ञान देते हैं — उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी, बुद्धिमान कौन हो सकता है? भक्ति सभी शामिल है— और भगवत ज्ञान में ब्रह्म ज्ञान, परमात्मा ज्ञान भी इसी में है। ब्रह्मेति परमात्मेति भगवान इति शब्द्यते (भागवत १.२.११) ब्रह्मा, परमात्मा, भगवान — ये जो है — अद्वैत-ज्ञान तत्त्व, वदन्ति तत् तत्त्वविदः तत्त्वं यज्ज्ञानमद्वयम् (भागवत १.२.११) ब्रह्मण, परमात्मा... ब्रह्मेति परमात्मेति भगवान इति शब्द्यते ज्ञान, ज्ञान, ब्रह्म ज्ञान, इसके बाद परमात्मा ज्ञान, उसको भगवत्-ज्ञान। जिसके पास भगवत्-ज्ञान हो गया उसके पास ब्रह्म ज्ञान, परमात्मा ज्ञान है। जिसके पास केवल ब्रह्म ज्ञान है उसके पास भगवत् ज्ञान नहीं है, जिसके पास परमात्मा ज्ञान है उसके पास भगवत् ज्ञान नहीं है। अतिथि: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान क्या है? ब्रह्म-ज्ञान का अर्थ क्या है? प्रभुपाद: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान जैसे सूर्य की किरण। इसका मतलब यह नहीं कि आप सूरज (बड़ा) जानते हैं। पर दोनों ही प्रकाश हैं। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) ... (हँसते हुए) प्रभुपाद: वह सोचता है कि यह सामान्य पर धूप बड़ा है, पर धूप जहाँ से निकलता है उसको छोटा मानते हैं। अतिथि: धूप जहाँ से प्रकाश आ रहा है... प्रभुपाद: यस्य प्रभा प्रभवतो जगदण्डकोटिकोटीषु अशेष-वसुधादिविभूति-भिन्नम् तद् ब्रह्म निष्कलम् अनन्तम् अशेषभूतम् (भागवत् ५.४०) ब्रह्म निष्कलम् अनन्त। अनन्त जो निर्वेश ब्रह्म है, उसी को बड़ा मानते हैं और जो जहाँ से निकलता है उसको छोटा मानते हैं। अतिथि: जैसे भगवत गीता बड़ी होगी, उसको छोटा मानते हैं। प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान, ज्ञान जो है ब्रह्म ज्ञान। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) ... भगवत्-ज्ञान। प्रभुपाद: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान, परमात्मा-ज्ञान। योगी के लिए परमात्मा-ज्ञान, और ज्ञानी के लिए ब्रह्म-ज्ञान, और भक्त के लिए भगवत् ज्ञान। तो भगवान ब्रह्म, परमात्मा... अतिथि: क्या ये अलग-अलग चरण हैं? प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: क्या ये अलग-अलग स्तर हैं? प्रभुपाद: अलग-अलग विशेषताएँ। अलग-अलग विशेषताएँ। जैसे सूर्य लोक, सूर्य देव और सूर्य रोशनी। सूर्य रोशनी जो है वह ब्रह्म ज्ञान है, सूर्य लोक जो है परमात्मा ज्ञान है, सूर्य देव जो है भगवत ज्ञान है। अतिथि: बहुत अच्छा। प्रभुपाद: तीनों चीजें एक ही हैं, परंतु अलग-अलग स्तर हैं। तो पहली स्तर है ब्रह्म ज्ञान। ब्रह्म-भूता: ब्रह्म-भूतः प्रसन्नात्मा (गीता १८.५४)। इस दुनिया में झंझट में बहुत दुखी हैं, ब्रह्म ज्ञान होने से सुखी हो जाएगा। ब्रह्म-भूतः प्रसन्नात्मा आत्मा सुखी हो जाएगा। अहं ब्रह्मास्मि। वह मुक्त हो गया। अतिथि: फिर दूसरा आता है। प्रभुपाद: फिर दूसरा। परमात्मा। फिर भगवत-ज्ञान। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: शून्य है, यही हो रहा है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: शून्य बस, शून्य लेकर खाओ, यही तो हो रहा है। यहाँ काम हो रहा है, शून्य को निकाल दिया गया है, केवल कृष्ण को लिया गया है। धर्मः प्रोज्झितकैतवोऽत्र (भागवत् १.१.२)। भगवान को छोड़कर जितना धर्म नाम से चलता है, न उसको कैतव धर्म बताया है — धोखा। अतिथि: धोखा। प्रभुपाद: धोखा उसके नोट में टिप्पणी में। श्रीधर स्वामी: अत्र मोक्षवाञ्छान् पर्यन्तं निरस्तम्। धर्मः प्रोज्झितकैतवः; कैतव-धर्म, ये मोक्षवाञ्छान् जो है — मैं मुक्त हो जाऊंगा और भगवान से एक हो जाऊंगा — ये भी निरस्त। यही भक्ति है ज्ञान-कर्माद्य अनावृतम्। ज्ञान कर्म से उसमें कोई टिंग नहीं है, शुद्ध भक्ति है। अतिथि: कौन है ये धीरे-धीरे? प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान-कर्माद्य-अनावृतम् आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानु- शीलनम् — केवल अनुकूल भाव से कृष्णानुशीलन। वह शुद्ध भक्ति है। नारद-भक्ति-सूत्र: अन्याभिलाषिता-शून्यम् ज्ञान-कर्मादि—है। सर्वोपाधि-विनिर्मुक्तम् — सब उपाधि से मुक्त। यह भी उपाधि है — मैं संन्यासी हूँ, मैं ब्राह्मण हूँ — ये भी उपाधि है। मैं पसि हूँ, मैं हिन्दू हूँ, मैं क्रिश्चियन हूँ — ये सब उपाधि है।सर्वोपाधि-विनिर्मुक्तम् — जब सब उपाधि से मुक्त हो गया,तत्परत्वेन निर्मलम्। केवल भगवत् भाव से निर्मल।उस समय आपको जो परिस्थिति है तो... हृषीकेण हृषीज्ञानीकेश सेवनं भक्तिरेक उच्यते (सीसी मध्य १९.१७०) उस समय आपका शुद्ध इंद्रिय है, वह इंद्रिय से वह सेवा है, उसका नाम है भक्ति। जब तक वह उपाधि तक है, मैं यह फैमिली मेंबर हूँ, मैं यह देश का हूँ, उसको हमारी जरूरत है, यह है वह है तब उपाधि मुक्ति नहीं है। अतिथि: इसे छोड़ना कठिन है... प्रभुपाद: हाँ, यह कठिन है पर कोई रास्ता नहीं है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। यह उपाधि है। जब उधर अमेरिका, यूरोप में भगवत भक्ति प्रचार करने के लिए गया, गार मैं उपाधि युक्त हिन्दू धर्म प्रचार करने गया तो ये सब नहीं होता। वह तो उपाधि देखता है - मैं स्वयं को एक हिंदू मानता हूँ। हाँ। फिर वे नहीं स्वीकारते। वे कहते हैं कि हमें क्रिश्चियनिटी मिली है, मुझे तुम्हारा धर्म क्यों स्वीकार करना चाहिए। निरूपाधि कृष्ण को दिया इसलिए यह संपूर्ण है। अतिथि: अस्पष्ट प्रभुपाद: हाँ, हाँ। अगर आप कहीं भी जाएं, अगर आप हिन्दू धर्म प्रचार करना चाहते हैं, तो वे हिन्दू धर्म में क्यों रुचि लेंगे? वे कुछ शब्द सुन सकते हैं। लेकिन हम हिन्दू धर्म या मोहम्मदी धर्म की बात नहीं कर रहे हैं। हम परमेश्वर के विज्ञान की बात कर रहे हैं। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। भगवान क्या है? भगवान की अवधारणा क्या है? उन्होंने वह स्वीकार कर लिया है। "हाँ, यहाँ सही अवधारणा है।" अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: वापस भगवान की ओर। प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वापस भगवान की ओर। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) मैंने 'Back to Godhead' बांटा है। प्रभुपाद: मैं व्यवस्था करूंगा बांटने की, मुझे पचास हज़ार 'Back to Godhead' मिल रहे हैं। पचास हज़ार, मैं बांटूंगा। अतिथि: उसे बताया कि मैंने इसे सही उपयोग किया। यही मैं... प्रभुपाद: आप लोग, हम सब सर्वोपाधि; कृष्ण। कृष्ण तो निरूपाधि है, सभी उपाधियों से मुक्त। कृष्ण। हमें कृष्ण को भारतीय या हिन्दू के रूप में प्रस्तुत करने की आवश्यकता नहीं। कृष्ण न तो इनमें से है। कृष्ण कहते हैं, दावा करते हैं कि "प्रत्येक जीव मेरा अंश और हिस्सा है, मैं बीज देने वाला पिता हूँ।" इसलिए इसे स्वीकार कर लिया गया है। मैंने कभी नहीं कहा कि "तुम हिन्दू बन जाओ।" वह कृष्ण को परम भगवान के रूप में स्वीकार करते हैं, और दर्शन समझने की कोशिश करते हैं। उन्हें हिन्दू बनने का क्या काम? पर वे जानना चाहते हैं कि भगवान क्या है? वह तो कर रहे हैं। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: और हमारा यहाँ है कि कृष्ण को खाली भगवान क्यों मानेंगे? इसलिए वे उलझन में हैं, यद्यपि कृष्ण भारत में प्रकट हुए। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वे कृष्ण को नहीं समझते। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं नहीं कृष्ण, उन्हें भी उत्तर दिया है: भगवान अवजानन्ति मां मूढा (BG 9.11) गधा, वे समझते हैं कि कृष्ण कोई आदमी है, मनुष्य है, उन्हें भी उपाधि दी है — मूढ़ा। अतिथि: मूढ़ा। प्रभुपाद: मूढ़ा मतलब गधा। अतिथि: (हँसी) प्रभुपाद: गधा कृष्ण को कैसे समझेगा? कृष्ण को समझाने के लिए अनेक योग साधन चाहिए: यततां अपि सिद्धानां (BG 7.3) जो सिद्धि प्राप्त की है वे कृष्ण को समझ सकते हैं। इसके लिए बहुत जन्म लेना पड़ता है: बहूनां जनमानाम अन्ते (BG 7.19) बाकी अगर कोई मूर्ख बन जाए, अस्पष्ट हो जाए, हमें इतने अनेक जन्म क्यों लेने पड़ते हैं, क्यों एकत्रित करना पड़ता है? यदि अनेक जन्मों में नहीं आना है, तो अभी कृष्ण के चरण पकड़ लो। क्यों धीरे-धीरे? अगर तुम्हें कृष्ण स्वीकारना है, तो तुरंत क्यों नहीं? यही बुद्धि है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: सवाल नहीं है कि "होना चाहिए"। जब कृष्ण कहते हैं: "मैं तुम्हें संरक्षण दूंगा", तो क्यों "होना चाहिए"? तुम कृष्ण पर विश्वास नहीं करते। वे कहते हैं: अहं त्वां सर्वपापेभ्यो मोक्षयिष्यामि (BG 18.66) तुम कृष्ण की क्षमता पर संदेह करते हो। इसका मतलब है कि तुम कृष्ण को नहीं जानते। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह क्या है? दूसरा अतिथि: कृष्ण को समझने के लिए वह जानता है कि वह कृष्ण को समझने की क्षमता से परे है। प्रभुपाद: समस्या क्या है? कृष्ण कहते हैं: "मैं सब कुछ हूँ।" तुम उसे क्यों स्वीकार नहीं करते? इसका मतलब है कि तुम कृष्ण को अपनी मर्जी से समझना चाहते हो। तुम जानबूझकर असमर्थ बन रहे हो? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं। वह दूसरी बात है। सबसे पहले समर्पण। फिर किस तरह समर्पण करोगे, वह अलग बात है, एक अलग अवस्था। वह अधिक गोपनीय है। सबसे पहले समर्पण है। अतिथि: समर्पण। प्रभुपाद: पहले तुम इस घर या इस कमरे में प्रवेश करते हो, फिर पूछते हो, मैं तुम्हारी सेवा कैसे कर सकता हूँ? वह अलग बात है। सबसे पहले समर्पण है, और बिना पूर्ण समर्पण के — कृष्ण के द्वार में प्रवेश नहीं है। अतिथि: प्रवेश नहीं। प्रभुपाद: प्रवेश नहीं। क्योंकि जो लोग कृष्ण के खिलाफ विद्रोह कर चुके हैं, जो कृष्ण बनना चाहते थे, उनकी नकल करके, वे यहां इस भौतिक जगत में हैं। इच्छाद्वेष समुत्थेना ... सर्गे यान्ति परन्तप (BG 7.27) सर्वयोनि। यह जो भौतिक जगत है, भूत्वा भूत्वा प्रलीयते (BG 8.19)। निर्माण। वे सभी जीव हैं जो इस सृष्टि में आए हैं, उन्होंने विद्रोह किया है। वे कृष्ण बनना चाहते हैं, कृष्ण की नकल करना चाहते हैं। इसलिए उन्हें मौका दिया गया, "ठीक है, तुम कृष्ण बनो। जो चाहे करो। मैं तुम्हें सुविधा देता हूँ। तुम ब्रह्मा बनना चाहते हो, ठीक है, ब्रह्मा बनो। और तुम मल की कीड़ा बनना चाहते हो, जैसा चाहो।" यह स्पष्ट है। तो ये जीव घूमते रहते हैं। कभी ब्रह्मा बनते हैं, कभी मल की कीड़ा, कभी यह, कभी वह। इसी तरह वे शरीर बदलते रहते हैं। यह भौतिक जगत है। और जब फिर वापस आता है: यद्गत्वा न निवर्तन्ते तद् धाम परमं मम (BG 15.6) तो उसे वापस नहीं आना पड़ता। त्यक्त्वा देहं पुनर्जन्म नैति मां एति सो कौन्तेय तो हमें उस स्थिति के लिए तैयारी करनी है। घर वापस कैसे जाना है, कृष्ण के पास कैसे जाना है, और उनकी सेवा में खुद को लगाना है। फिर सवाल होगा माँ के रूप में, मित्र के रूप में या ... वह बाद में सोचा जाएगा। सबसे पहले आइए जानें कि भगवान का राज्य कैसे प्राप्त करें। यह शर्त है: सर्वधर्मान्परित्यज्य मामेकं (BG 18.66) "तुम मुझे पूर्ण रूप से समर्पित हो जाओ, सारे कर्म छोड़ दो, फिर मैं तुम्हारा प्रभार लूंगा।" अहं त्वां मोक्षयिष्यामि, मोक्षायिष्यामि कृष्ण-भक्त के लिए कुछ नहीं है; मोक्ष या मुक्ति। वह कर रहे हैं, वह तुम्हारा ध्यान रखेंगे। तैयार। ठीक है। हंसदूत: श्रील प्रभुपाद ने बाबा बाल-मुकुंद और वैराग्य बाबा को और ... (अस्पष्ट) ... बॉम्बे में आमंत्रित किया और रविवार को और ४ और ५ तारीख को गीता भवन इंदौर में सुबह के लेक्चर रिकॉर्ड किए और ... (अस्पष्ट) ... बाबा बाल-मुकुंद के कमरे में और लेक्चर के ठीक बाद ५ तारीख को। अब अभी इंदौर में उनके दिव्य कृपा से उपस्थित हैं हिमावती, हंसदूत और रेवतीनंदन ब्रह्मचारी। Conversation A Hindi -- December 5, 1970, Indore Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda has been speaking at the Gita Bhavan in Indore and this is the 2nd morning that he has spoken. Prabhupāda: Renunciation and knowledge automatically follow bhakti . Guest: Devotees do not need to try for knowledge and renuniation, these things are acquired automatically for them. *Prabhupāda: That is what . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is the vairāgya*-vān Just like renunciant ( vairāgya-vān ), and scholar ( jñānī ), śūdra : *It does not make any difference that somebody is a householder, somebody is sannyāsī . Someone is a brāhmin , someone is a śūdra —these things are not there in bhakti*-mārga . Whoever knows Kṛṣṇa, understands this science, he is a guru : yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā , tattva-vettā , kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā , he is a guru . In our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya , the idea that one will be great by becoming a brāhmin and sannyāsī is not there. Though it is a social idea. But bhagavat-bhakti . . . Guest: What will you take now? Prabhupāda: What? *(aside) There is not, no coffee . . . (indistinct) . . . I simply want, we will all go together with chanting Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Guest: In Ahmedabad, 5 to 6 strangers were dancing. Whenever 15 ser butter was being brought, whoever got it on their heads, they ate every bite of it. Jeldi kaldo malayo usane . Everyday there had a discourse on the life of Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: Good . . . (indistinct) Guest: (indistinct) . . . still they do not understand. Prabhupāda: They will understand, by constant hearing they will understand. Guest: They will understand by constant hearing. Still in their minds . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That will also happen by constant hearing. Guest: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Paraṁ vijayate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam (CC. Antya 20.12). The dirt on the mirror of the mind will all be washed away by constant hearing saṅkīrtana . So this is the process. Somehow or other he should be in saṅkīrtana . Then everything will be all right. First class. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . one who is inquisitive goes to guru , sādhu guru . Kṛṣṇa. One does not need to go to sādhu guru for asking, "What is the market price of this commodity? What is this thing? Or this fellow is sick so what is its medicine?" No. For this, he has to go to a physician. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Topmost. Topmost subject. The topmost subject is, the topmost subject uttama*-viṣayā means udgata tama . The worldly subject matters are the tama subject, tamasi mā , tamasi mā . Tamasic (ignorance). What would happen with these worldly materialistic questions surrounding the political state of affairs, what will happen to us? These are not questions. These are moral questions. The topmost question is, the topmost question is, not the political or materialistic, only bhagavat subject. Topmost. Guest: Not mine. Prabhupāda: What? Guest: Not mine. Prabhupāda: Not mine. Yes. Not mineness but transcendental. Guru is needed for that inquiry. If he is eager to understand that higher thing then he needs guru . Otherwise one does not need guru . Guru is not something that you have a guru by fashion. No. Scriptures say: "No, then you do not need guru ". You are not prepared for inquirying topmost subject. Therefore you do not need guru now. Guest: We think that by having a guru , we reach to Vaikuṇṭha. By having this guru . . . Prabhupāda: For going Vaikuṇṭha only, one has to have a guru . But guru should also understand Vaikuṇṭha. And the disciple should also be really eager to go to Vaikuṇṭha, and nothing else. Then it is all right. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to home. Back to Godhead . That is why we kept the title of our magazine— Back to Godhead . Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This path of devotion is . . . without knowledge one can not perform bhakti . Just see, the meaning of bhakti is bhagavat*-bhajana . If he does not know God, then how can he do bhagavat-bhajana ? Where is the question of . . . if you do not know who the God is then where is bhagavat-bhajana ? And to understand who the God is requires much knowledge. But there is not a single university. How much knowledge is required just to understand a materialistic thing? Much knowledge is needed to become a lawyer, and to understand God, God says: Despite being pure, very few people understand God. So how much knowledge is needed to understand God? Without being a jñānī , how will he understand God? And without understanding God, what is bhakti ? It is not bhakti , it is sentiment. Bhakti is practical. Just like Arjuna is addressed by God as— bhakto ' si . Arjuna was not a sentimental person. He was practically a warrior, a kṣatriya . So bhakti is not a sentiment, a feeling no. It is practical. Guest: But by bhakti can we not . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? But bhakti is practical. Guest: . . . knowledge. Through process of bhakti can we not understand? Prabhupāda: No. One who is not jñānī can not reach to the stage of bhakti . Therefore, there are 9 Canto's in Bhāgavatam to reach to the stage of bhakti; *just to understand who the God is. The professional bhagavat reciters readily jump to rasa*-lila in 10th Canto by leaving aside the 9 Canto's. They have not understood God, what will they understand about God’s rasa-lila ? The process is . . . there are 9 Cantos, beginning with: janmādy asya yataḥ , just to understand who the God is. It means beginning from Vedānta . The knowledge of God begins from Vedānta . This is the thing. *Guest: Then what about Vedānta bhakti*-mārga ? Prabhupāda: What? *Guest: All Vedas are towards bhakti*-mārga . Prabhupāda: Yes: vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15). What is the meaning of Veda ? To understand God. So by reading Veda , scriptures, following Vedānta , one who has correctly understood God, bhakti is for him. But he has not understood God, what is God? "Everybody is God, I am God, he is God." Such person has not understood God. How does he know bhakti ? It is meaningless. Guest: So Veda means knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge. Full knowledge. What is Kṛṣṇa? Guest: But then people who are ignorant . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . and who have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Then they are not up . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not up. If, if actually they are serious then Kṛṣṇa from within will give him knowledge. God is saying: *Unto those who are doing bhagavat*-bhajana according to scriptural injunctions by the order of Guru , with love: prīti-pūrvakam , buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ . God Himself gives them intelligence. And elsewhere: God is residing in your hearts. When you are serious, when you are serious to understand Him, You can not cheat Him. And as soon as you receive within the ear, actually for Him, then He will give you knowledge. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That’s also. We want to be serious: prīti*-pūrvakam , bhajatāṁ . God is prīti (love). Keep God and no interest in anything else. Guest: Only devotion to Him . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . with Lord. Prabhupāda: God understands that whether you got prīti for him or through His media you have got prīti (for) something else. That is not difficult for Him to understand. He is cleverer than anyone. Guest: (laughing) who gives the knowledge for . . . (indistinct) *Guest (2): That is only the vyabhicāreṇa*-bhakti . *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāreṇa*-bhakti . *If one has worldly aspirations through medium of God, then it is karma . "I want to become one with a nirvisesa Brahman through medium of God" then it has become jñāna . So jñāna*-karma-anāvṛtam . So it should be free from jñāna and karma . It should not be contaminated with jñāna and karma . Pure bhakti . What is pure bhakti ? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ , doing bhagavat-bhajana favourably. How will God be satisfied? Just like gopīs, they did not care jñāna and karma . They simply wanted how Lord Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. This is vṛndāvana-bhāva . Yaśodāmayī. *Guest: Viraha*-bhāva . Prabhupāda: What? *Guest: Viraha*-bhāva . Prabhupāda: Viraha or whatever it is, their only feeling is how our Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Jñānam . Be it vatsalya*-bhāva or sakhya-bhāva . . . (indistinct) . . . there is vatsalya-bhāva . Everyone’s wish is to see how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. It is not like how I will be happy through Kṛṣṇa. That is kāma . Through Kṛṣṇa we will fulfill our purpose. That is lust. It is called lust. And we have no purpose but how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That is love. This is the difference between lust and love. So there needs love, not lust. Lust also . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody wants to fulfill his desires, then God will fulfill. For Him there is no difficulty. But that is not pure bhakti . That is not pure bhakti . Guest: They have sin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right, that has been accepted. *They are not called pure devotees, they are called su*-kṛtino . Those who have desires for kama-siddhi , jñāna-siddhi or jijñāsā-siddhi through the medium of God, they are not called pure devotees. They are called pious. Su-kṛtino means pious. Because one who is mahā-pāpī (very sinful), he will not come to God. But these people have come to God for asking something That means they are pious, because they have come to God. While going to God they must get some status. So these four— ārto arthārthī jijñāsur , and jñānī —those who are in distress, those who want money, those who are inquisitive, and jñānī —have come to God and so they are pious. Guest: Want purī or kulcha ? Prabhupāda: No. I want kulcha only. Mātājī: Want kulcha , then it is all right. Prabhupāda: You want to take purī ? All right, give him purī . Mātājī: Kulcha is being prepared slowly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes give purī . Guest: Capātī is there, take it. Prabhupāda No, purī , purī . Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda Yes. Jñānī*-devotees , just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī—a jñānī-bhakta . *Guest: Jñānī*-bhakta . Prabhupāda: One who becomes a devotee after being a jñānī will be a pakka bhakta . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? Oh yes certainly. The purpose of knowledge is to understand God. One who has understood God and has engaged himself in service of God is better than a jñānī . Jñānī is simply trying to understand God. But this one has already engaged in service. One is applying for Government service, and the other has already engaged in Government service. So who is better? Guest: One who has engaged. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Bhakti is stronger than knowledge. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? But knowledge will be there by having bhakti . For a pure devotee.., For example you want to do a business to acquire 1 crore rupees, and if somehow you have acquired 1 crore rupees , then it includes 10 lakhs . Similarly if you have become a devotee, then it includes knowledge. Guest: That was the point I was asking in the beginning. *Prabhupāda Yes, therefore the Bhāgavatam says vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7) If one is engaged in devotion to Lord Vāsudeva, then: He gradually acquires jñāna and vairagya . Ahaituki . No purpose. To acquire simple knowledge one has to read and hear a lot. One has to read Veda , Vedānta etc. But if one has become a bhakta . . . (indistinct) The Guru of our Guru Mahārāja did not know how to write even his name. And our Guru Mahārāja . . . at that time nobody was a scholar like him, and he accepted him as his guru . Why? He was speaking Veda , Vedānta . So he was: svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (CC Madhya 17.136), yasya deve parā bhaktir . *One would be familiar with all such knowledge by having bhagavat*-bhakti . He is not bereft of knowledge. God Himself says: teṣām evānukampārtham . Who is a better jñānī than one to whom God gives knowledge by His mercy? Our knowledge is through hearing you or him, but he is hearing from God Himself. See, who will be a better jñānī than him? Guest: Practical knowledge. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: For a devotee, a pure devotee, he is not bereft of knowledge. Have you understood? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: God Himself is making him jñānī . Guest: "By remembering Me", it is said in *Gītā* , "By remembering Me". *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is there in buddhi*-yoga . God gives him intelligence. And to whom God gives knowledge, who will be a better jñānī —(intelligent) than him? Bhakti is all inclusive. And the knowledge on God includes knowledge on Brahman and knowledge on Paramātmā. *Tattva , tattva , the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is nondual. And that Absolute Truth is Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, these things are non*-dual substance ( advaita-jñāna tattva ). Brahman, Paramātmā *Knowledge. Knowledge. Brahma*-jñāna , after that paramātmā-jñāna , after that bhagavat-jñāna . One who has bhagavat-jñāna has brahma-jñāna and paramātmā-jñāna . One who has only brahma-jñāna does not have bhagavat-jñāna . One who has paramātmā-jñāna also does not have bhagavat-jñāna . *Guest: Brahma*-jñāna . What is the meaning of brahma-jñāna ? *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-jñāna means like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun (big). But both of them are light. Guest: (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: He thinks that this ordinary light is bigger, and considers the source of this light to be smaller. Guest: (indistinct) . . . correct . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Brahma niṣkalam ananta . They consider the infinite impersonal Brahman to be the biggest, and consider the source from which it comes to be smaller. *Guest: Just like Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda Knowledge This knowledge— brahma*-jñāna . *Guest: (indistinct) . . . bhagavat*-jñāna. *Prabhupāda Brahma*-jñāna , paramātmā-jñāna . Paramātmā-jñāna is for yogī , and brahma-jñāna is for jñānī . and for devotees it is bhagavat-jñāna . So Bhagavān, Brahman, Paramātmā. Guest: Are they different stages? Prabhupāda: What? Guest: Are they different stages? *Prabhupāda: Different features. Different features. Just like sun-planet, sun-god and sun-light. Sun-light is brahma-jñāna , and sun-planet is paramātmā-jñāna , and sun*-god is bhagavat-jñāna . Guest: Very good. I see. *Prabhupāda: All three are one. One only, but has different stages. So first stage is brahma*-jñāna . *Brahma*-bhūta : brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). *He is very distressed due to inebrities of this world, and after acquiring brahma*-jñāna he is happy: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . The soul has become happy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . He is liberated. Guest: Then comes second. *Prabhupāda Then second. Paramātmā. Then bhagavat*-jñāna. Guest: (indistinct) . . . it is the same thing as removing 1, and . . . Prabhupāda: Zero remains. This is what is happening. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Only zero. Just eat zeros. This is all. And here it is working, so zero is discarded and only Kṛṣṇa is taken up. 1 is taken up, all zeros are discarded. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). All that in the name of religion without God is called kaitava-dharma . Cheating. Guest: Cheating. *Prabhupāda: Cheating. In his notes, commentary, Śrīdhara Svāmī: atra mokṣa*-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo; *kaitava*-dharma says, this liberated who says I will be liberated, will become one with God, he has also become nirasta . And this is bhakti , which is jñāna-karma-anāvṛtam , there is no tinge of contamination of jñāna and karma . It is pure. Guest: (some sounds) who is that? slowly slowly. *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu . Only with favourable devotion: kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ . That is pure bhakti . And in Nārada-bhakti-sūtra : anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karma . . . eh? No, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ . Free from all designations. All these designations that I am sannyāsī , I am brāhmin , these are also upâdhis . "I am Parsi, I am Hindu, I am Christian", these are all designations. So: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ , when one is free from all these designations, tat-paratvena nirmalam , only with bhagavat-bhāva , pure. At that time the situation you are in . . . then: At that time the service you are rendering with your purified senses to the master of the senses, hṛṣīkeśa , is called bhakti . As long as these designations are there that, "I am a family member, I look after this, this is my responsibility, this and that", he is not free from designations. Guest: It is difficult to give up . . . Prabhupāda: Yes it is difficult but there is no way. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi . When I went to Europe and America for preaching bhagavat*-bhakti , if I had upādhi that I have to preach this Hindu-dharma then it would not have been successful. This is full with upādhi; "I identify myself to be a Hindu". Yes. Then there is . . . not accepted. They say we got Christinity why should I accept your religion. Instead, Kṛṣṇa is presented, free from all designation. That is why it is successful. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. If you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism. They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism or Mohammedanism. We are talking on the science of God. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh they have accepted that. "Yes, here is the right concept." Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes back to God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . I have distributed Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: I shall arrange to distribute, I am getting for 50,000 Back to Godhead . 50,000, I shall distribute. Guest: Telling him that I made it a proper use. That is what I . . . Prabhupāda: You people. We are, sarvopādhi ; Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is free from all designations. Kṛṣṇa. We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian, as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of these. Kṛṣṇa says, claims that, "Every living entity is my part and parcel, I am the seed giving father". Therefore it has become accepted. I never said that, "You become a Hindu." He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy. What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God? That they are doing. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But here at our place, why Kṛṣṇa is considered as only God? . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore they are puzzled, although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa . . . this is also answered by God: avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). Rascal, donkey. He thinks that Kṛṣṇa is a man, a human being. He has been given a title; he is called jñānī . Guest: Mūḍhā Prabhupāda Mūḍhā means, "Donkey". Guest: (laughter) *Prabhupāda: How does a donkey understand Kṛṣṇa? To understand Kṛṣṇa one needs to have many yoga *-practices. Yatatām api siddhānāṁ (BG 7.3), "One who has gained siddhi will understand Kṛṣṇa." It takes many life times: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). *Otherwise if one becomes rascal, and considers Kṛṣṇa like this then that is jñāna*-upādhi . Why should we waste many lifetimes, if we have to come to Kṛṣṇa only after many lifetimes, then why not we take Kṛṣṇa now? Speaking very important thing. Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There is no question of, "Should be". When Kṛṣṇa says: "I will give you protection", why, "Should be"? You don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says: ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa’s capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): To understand Kṛṣṇa he knows that he is beyond the capacity to understand Him. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says: "I am everything". Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. That is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is a different thing, another stage. That is more confidential. First of all there is surrender. Guest: Surrender. Prabhupāda: First of all you enter this house or this room, then you ask how can I serve you? That is different. First of all there is no surrender, and without surrender—full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. Guest: No entrance. *Prabhupāda: No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā*-dveṣa samutthena . . . sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27), sarva-yoni . This material world, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Creation. They are all the living entities who have come into this created world they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are given the chance, "All right you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I give you facility. You want to become Brahmā, all right you become Brahmā, and you want to become the worm of stool, as you wish." This is clear. So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing bodies. This is material world. And when comes back again Back to Godhead : Then he has not got to come back. *So we have to prepare for that position. How to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourselves in His service. Then the question is either as mother, as friend or . . . that will be considered latter on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is a condition: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66), "You surrender unto me fully giving up all your other engagements, then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi , mokṣayiṣyāmi is nothing for kṛṣṇa-bhakta; mokṣa or liberation. He is doing, He will look after you. (aside) Ready. All right. *Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda invited Baba Bal*-Mukund and Vairagya Baba and . . . (indistinct) . . . in Bombay and said Sunday and in the lecture, last two lectures recorded in the morning of the 4th and 5th at Gita Bhavan in Indore and . . . (indistinct) . . . speaking was . . . (indistinct) . . . in the room of Baba Bal-Mukund at the Gita Bhavan and just after the lecture on the 5th. Present now with His Divine Grace in Indore just now, Himavatī and Hansadutta and Revatīnandana brahmacārī . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I am willing . . . (end) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION: हंसदूत: प्रभुपाद जी गीता भवन इंदौर में बोल रहे हैं और यह दूसरा दिन है जब उन्होंने सुबह प्रवचन दिया। प्रभुपाद: भक्ति है तो वैराग्य और ज्ञान हो जाता है। अतिथि: भक्त को ज्ञान वैराग्य नहीं करना है वो तो अपने आप आता है। प्रभुपाद: (अस्पष्ट) कृष्ण ज्ञान वैराग्य। किबा विप्रा, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नय येइ कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेत्ता, सेइ 'गुरु' हया (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य ८.१२८) इसमें कोई फ़र्क नहीं पड़ता है कोई गृहस्थी है, कोई संन्यासी है, कोई ब्राह्मण है, कोई शूद्र है — ये विचार भक्ति मार्ग में नहीं है। यही साइंस सब समझता है — वह गुरु है। यही कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेता, तत्त्व-वेता, कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेता, वही गुरु है। हमारे वैष्णव-संप्रदाय में ये सब विचार नहीं हैं। ब्राह्मण होने से ही बड़ा हो जाएंगे, संन्यासी होने से — ये सब सामाजिक है। परंतु भगवत भक्ति होने से... अतिथि: क्या लेंगे आप? प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: कॉफी नहीं... खाली इतना ही चाहता हूँ — राधा कृष्णा बोलो साथ में छलकाकर। अतिथि: वहाँ अहमदाबाद में ५-६ अंजान आदमी १५ सेर मठा लाते हैं — वहीं फोड़-फोड़ के खाते हैं। जल्दी कर लो मलयो, उसने हर रोज़ महाप्रभु का — ये कृपा होता है। अतिथि: बहुत अच्छा। अतिथि: तब भी समझते ही नहीं हैं। अतिथि: समझेंगे, समझेंगे। सुनते-सुनते समझेंगे। अतिथि: समझेंगे धीरे-धीरे। अभी उनके मस्तिष्क में... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह भी सुनते-सुनते होगा। अतिथि: हाँ। प्रभुपाद: परं विजयते श्रीकृष्ण-संकीर्तनम् चित्त दर्पण में जो मैल है वो सब निकल जाएगा। शृण्वतां स्वकथाः कृष्णः पुण्य-श्रवण-कीर्तनः हृद्यन्तःस्थो ह्यभद्राणि विधुनोति सुहृत्सताम् (भागवत १.२.१७) यही विधि है — जो किसी तरह कीर्तन में सहयोग करेंगे, सब ठीक हो जाएगा। और क्या है? अतिथि: चैंटिंग जो है — वो बैठ के कराई जाए? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: जैसे यमुना माई... बड़ा मस्त लगता है। प्रभुपाद: ...जो जिज्ञासु है वो गुरु का बात — गुरु, साधु, गुरु। कृष्ण, गुरु, साधु, गुरु के पास जाकर पूछना चाहिए। और ये नहीं है कि बाज़ार के जैसा — इसका क्या भाव है? ये सब पूछने के लिए साधु-गुरु के पास जाने की ज़रूरत नहीं। इसका क्या दवाई है? — बीमार है? नहीं। उसके लिए डॉक्टर के पास जाना चाहिए। अतिथि: ..... प्रभुपाद: नहीं, नहीं, जाओ — उत्तम विषय। उत्तम विषय मतलब उद्गत तम। ये जो दुनिया का विषय है — वो तम है। तमसो मा, तमसो मा — तमसिक। ये दुनिया का भौतिक प्रश्न है। ये जो राजनीतिक परिस्थिति है — इसका क्या होगा? ये जो प्रश्न है — ये भौतिक प्रश्न है। उत्तम प्रश्न, उत्तम प्रश्न — कोई जागृत, कोई भौतिक प्रश्न नहीं — केवल भगवद गीता। अतिथि: मेरे नहीं... प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: मरते नहीं हाँ, मेरे नहीं केवल पर ट्रान्सेंडेंटल। जिज्ञासा — इसलिए गुरु का ज़रूरत है, जो कि वो अप्राकृत वस्तु को समझाने के लिए प्रकट हुए। इसलिए गुरु का ज़रूरत है। नहीं तो गुरु का कोई ज़रूरत नहीं है। गुरु कोई ऐसी चीज़ नहीं है जो गुरु बना गया शौक़ से — नहीं। शास्त्र में तुम्हारा गुरु का ज़रूरत नहीं है, तुम्हारा उत्तम विषय में प्रश्न करने के लिए तैयार नहीं है तो तुम्हारा गुरु का ज़रूरत नहीं है। अतिथि: बहुत लोग ये सोचते हैं — गुरु करके वैकुण्ठ में चले जाएंगे, इसलिए गुरु चाहिए। प्रभुपाद: वैकुण्ठ में जाने के लिए गुरु करना चाहिए। परंतु गुरु भी वैकुण्ठ को समझने वाला हो और शिष्य भी वास्तव में वैकुण्ठ में ही जाना चाहता है — और कुछ नहीं — तब ठीक है। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ — Back to Home, "बैक टू गॉडहेड। इसलिए हम लोग पत्रिका का नाम रखा है "बैक टू गॉडहेड। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: भक्ति मार्ग जो है न — बिना ज्ञान के भक्ति नहीं होती। देखिए, भक्ति का अर्थ होता है भगवत भजन। भगवान का जो ज्ञानी है — तो भगवत धर्म क्या होगा? जो चीज़ आपको मालूम ही नहीं है — भगवान क्या चीज़ है — तो उसका भजन आप क्या करेंगे? और भगवत क्या चीज़ है — समझने के लिए काफ़ी ज्ञान की ज़रूरत है। एक भी यूनिवर्सिटी नहीं है — एक भौतिक वस्तु को समझने के लिए कितना ज्ञान की ज़रूरत होती है? एक वकील बनने के लिए कितना ज्ञान की ज़रूरत होती है? और भगवान को समझने...? और भगवान कहते हैं: मनुष्याणां सहस्रेषु कश्चिद् यतति सिद्धये यतताम् अपि सिद्धानां कश्चिन् मां वेत्ति तत्त्वतः (भगवद गीता ७.३) प्रभुपाद: शुद्ध होते हुए भी कोई-कोई भगवान को समझता है। वो भगवान को समझने के लिए कितना ज्ञान का ज़रूरत है। बिना ज्ञानी हुए कैसे भगवान को समझेंगे? कैसे? और भगवान को बिना समझे भक्ति कैसे होगी? भक्ति कोई भावुकता नहीं है — भक्ति प्रैक्टिकल है। अर्जुन को भक्तों सी। अर्जुन कोई भावुक नहीं थे — वो योद्धा थे, वो प्रैक्टिकल थे। तो भक्ति भावुकता नहीं है — ये प्रैक्टिकल है। अतिथि: क्या भक्ति से हम नहीं? प्रभुपाद: हँ, भक्ति प्रैक्टिकल है। अतिथि: ज्ञान — क्या हम भक्ति की प्रोसेस से समझ सकते हैं? प्रभुपाद: नहीं। भक्ति के बिना जो ज्ञानी नहीं है वो भक्ति तक पहुँचा ही नहीं। इसलिए भक्ति तक पहुँचने के लिए भागवत में ९ स्कंध हैं खाली भगवान क्या चीज़ है समझाने के लिए। बाकी ये ९ स्कंध छोड़ करके ये जो प्रोफेशनल भागवत कहते वो १०वें स्कंध में भगवान के रासलीला में चले जाते हैं। ये लोग भगवान को समझा ही नहीं है तो भगवान का रासलीला क्या समझेगा? ये पद्धति जो है भगवान को केवल समझाने के लिए है। भागवत में ९ स्कंध दिया है जन्माद्यस्य यतः वेदांत से शुरू हुआ है। वेदांत से भगवान को सब ज्ञान यही सब विचार है। अतिथि: तो वेदांत भक्ति मार्ग क्या है? प्रभुपाद: क्या? गेस्ट: वेद भी भक्ति मार्ग है? प्रभुपाद: हाँ वेदैश्च सर्वैरहमेव वेद्योऽहम् (भगवद गीता १५.१५) वेद क्या होता है?भगवान को समझाने के लिए। तो वेद आदि शास्त्र पढ़ करके और वेदांत को अवलोकन करके भगवान को अच्छी तरह से समझा उसके लिए भक्ति है। भगवान भगवान को समझा नहीं सब भगवान हैं मैं भगवान हूँ ये भगवान है वो क्या भगवान को समझा? ऐसी भक्ति का क्या है अर्थ नहीं है। अतिथि: वेद का मतलब ज्ञान है। प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान पूरा ज्ञान कृष्ण क्या है? अतिथि: पर जो लोग इग्नोरेंट हैं? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: जिनके पास समझने की शक्ति नहीं है? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: तो वो लोग नहीं... प्रभुपाद: तो नहीं क्या? अगर वो सीरियस है — तो कृष्ण उनको ज्ञान देंगे। भगवान बोल रहे हैं न एषां सततयुक्तानां भजतां प्रीतिपूर्वकम् (भगवद गीता १०.१०) जो शास्त्र विधि से, गुरु की आज्ञा से, सिर्फ विधिवत भगवत भजन कर रहे हैं प्रीतिपूर्वक, प्रेम से बुद्धियोगं ददामि तम् — उनको भगवान खुद बुद्धियोग देते हैं। और ये — तेषामेवानुकम्पार्थम् अहमज्ञानजं तमः नाशयाम्यात्मभावस्थो ज्ञानदीपेन भावता (भगवद गीता १०.११) भगवान तो आपके हृदय में बैठे ही हैं। जब आप सीरियस हो जाते हैं उनको समझने के लिए तुम उसे धोखा नहीं दे सकते। और जैसे ही आप कान से वास्तव में उसके लिए सुनते हैं तब वह आपको ज्ञान देंगे। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह भी। हमको सीरियस होना चाहिए — प्रीतिपूर्वकम्, भजताम्। भगवान प्रीति (प्रेम) — भगवान को खड़ा करके और कुछ चीज़ सोचो मत। अतिथि: सिर्फ उनकी भक्ति। प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: प्रेम से। प्रभुपाद: गॉड अंडरस्टैंड्स कि आपने उसके लिए प्रीति रखी है या उसके ज़रिए कुछ और चीज़ के लिए प्रीति रखी है। दैट इज नॉट डिफिकल्ट फॉर हिम टू अंडरस्टैंड। ही इज क्लेवरर दैन एनीवन। अतिथि: (हँसते हुए) हू गिव्स द नॉलेज फॉर... (अस्पष्ट) अतिथि: दैट इज ओनली द व्यभिचारेण-भक्ति। प्रभुपाद: अव्यभिचारेण-भक्ति। अन्याभिलाषिता-शून्यं ज्ञानकर्माद्यनावृतम् आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानु- शीलनं भक्तिरुत्तमा (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य १९.१६७) जब भगवान को कोई...दुनिया का — वो कर्म हो गया। भगवान के ज़रिए से — निर्विशेष से — भगवान से एक होना चाहते हैं — तो ज्ञान हो गया। तो — ज्ञान-कर्म-अनावृतम् — ये ज्ञान और कर्म से अनावृत होना चाहिए। इसका दूषितकरण नहीं होना चाहिए — ज्ञान, कर्म का। शुद्ध भक्ति, शुद्ध भक्ति — क्या है? आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानुशीलनम् — केवल अनुकूल भाव से भगवत-भजन करना। भगवान कैसे संतुष्ट हैं — जैसे गोपी लोग। उनको ज्ञान-कर्म का कोई परवाह नहीं। वो केवल चाहते थे — भगवान किस तरह से सुखी हैं बस। ये वृंदावन का भाव है, जैसे यशोदा मइया। अतिथि: विरह भाव। प्रभुपाद: एhhh। अतिथि: विरह भाव। प्रभुपाद: विरह, उनका जो कुछ है — उनका केवल यही भाव है कि हमारा कृष्ण किस तरह से सुखी रहे — बस। अतिथि: वात्सल्य भाव — दोनों साथ में। प्रभुपाद: वात्सल्य भाव हो, सुख भाव हो, दास्य भाव है सबका उद्देश्य है कृष्ण कैसे सुखी हो। कृष्ण को खड़ा करके मैं कैसे सुखी हूँ वो काम है। वो काम है। कृष्ण को खड़ा करके हमारा मतलब क्या है — साधन करने का? वो काम है — उसका नाम काम है। और हमारा कोई मतलब नहीं है केवल कृष्ण किस तरह से सुखी हो वो प्रेम है। ये फ़र्क है काम और प्रेम। प्रेम चाहिए काम नहीं। काम भी ऐसे कैसे? भगवान को खड़े करके अपना कोई कामना सिद्ध करने को चाहते हैं तो भगवान कर देंगे इसमें कोई मुश्किल नहीं है भगवान के लिए। पर वो शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं है। पर वो शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं है। अतिथि: परंतु पास्ट... प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वो सही है — वो भी चलेगा। चतुर्विधा भजन्ते मां जनाः सुकृतिनोऽर्जुन (भगवद गीता ७.१६) उसको शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं बोला है उसको सुकृतिनः बोला है। जो भगवान से कुछ कामना सिद्ध करने को चाहते हैं, कोई ज्ञान सिद्ध करना चाहते हैं, कोई कामना सिद्ध करना चाहते हैं उसको शुद्ध भक्त नहीं बोला जाएगा। उसे सुकृतिनः बोला जाएगा। उसे सुकृतिवान बोला जाएगा। सुकृतिवान यानी पुण्यवान, क्योंकि जो महापापी होते हैं वो भगवान के पास नहीं आते हैं। ये जो भगवान के पास आया है कुछ माँगने के लिए इसका मतलब है कि वो भी सुकृतिमान है क्योंकि आया है भगवान के पास। और भगवान के पास आने से कुछ धन तो ज़रूर मिलेगा। आप तो अच्छा है जिज्ञासु है जो दुखी है, और जो आत्मकामी है, और जो जिज्ञासु है, ज्ञानी है वो भगवान के पास जाते हैं वो सुकृतिवान हैं। अतिथि: आपको पुरी और कुलचा चाहिए? प्रभुपाद: नहीं कुलचा ही ठीक है। माताजी: कुलचा ही ठीक है। प्रभुपाद: आपको पुरी चाहिए? ठीक है उनको पुरी दो। माताजी: हाँ बस आपके वास्ते कुलचा बना रहे फिर... प्रभुपाद: हाँ — पुरी दो। अतिथि: चपाती भी है। प्रभुपाद: नहीं — पुरी, पुरी। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञानी भक्त जैसे शुकदेव गोस्वामी — ज्ञान भक्ति। अतिथि: ज्ञानी भक्त। प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान के बाद जो भक्त होते हैं — वो पक्के होते हैं। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: क्या? ओह हाँ, निश्चित रूप से। ज्ञान का उद्देश्य है भगवान को समझना। जो भगवान को समझ लिया है — भगवान की सेवा में है — वो उत्तम है। ज्ञानी तो भगवान को समझने के लिए कोशिश करना कर रहे हैं। और ये तो काम में लग गया सरकारी नौकरी के लिए कोई दरख़ास्त दे रहा है, और कोई काम में लग गया है — तो कौन बड़ा है? अतिथि: जो लग गया है। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान से भक्ति बड़ी है। अतिथि: ... प्रभुपाद: हाँ भक्ति हो गई तो ज्ञान हो जाएगा। जो शुद्ध भक्त है — जैसे आपका व्यापार करने का उद्देश्य है एक करोड़ मिल रहा है अगर कोई तरह से एक करोड़ मिल गया — तो दस लाख का काम हो ही जाएगा। इसी प्रकार — अगर आप भक्त हो गए — तो ज्ञान का काम हो ही गया। अतिथि: वही बात थी जो मैं शुरुआत में पूछ रहा था। प्रभुपाद: हाँ — इसलिए तो भागवत में कहते हैं: वासुदेवे भगवति भक्ति-योगः प्रयोजितः (भागवत १.२.७) भगवान वासुदेव में अगर भक्ति को लगा दीजिए — तो... जनयत्याशु वैराग्यं ज्ञानं च यद अहैतुकम् (भागवत १.२.७) उसको ज्ञान और वैराग्य अपने आप हो जाता है — और कोई हेतु नहीं है। साधारण से ज्ञान लाभ करने के लिए बहुत कुछ सुनना पढ़ना चाहिए — वेद, वेदांत — बहुत कुछ पढ़ना सुनना चाहिए। बाकी जो भक्त हो गया... यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः यथा-देवे तथा गुरौ तस्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते (श्वेताश्वतर उपनिषद् ६.२३) हमारे गुरुमहाराज के जो गुरु थे — बिल्कुल अपना नाम भी लिखने को नहीं जानते थे। और हमारे गुरुमहाराज जो थे — उस प्रकार विद्वान तो थे ही नहीं। अब उसको गुरु बना लिया — क्यों? सब बात करते थे — सब वेद-वेदांत का बात करते थे। स्वयमेव स्फुरत्यदः (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य १७.१३६) यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः भगवत भक्ति होने से — सब ज्ञान प्रस्फुट हो जाता है। ज्ञान का अभाव नहीं होता है। भगवान खुद कहते हैं — तेषामेवानुकम्पार्थम् जब भगवान जिसपे कृपा करके ज्ञान देता है — उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी कौन हो सकता है? हमारा ज्ञान है — पास से सुन करके, इनसे सुन करके। और वो — खुद भगवान से सुन रहा है — ऋषभदेव। उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी कौन हो सकता है? अतिथि: व्यावहारिक ज्ञान। गेस्ट (२): (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: भक्त जो होता है — उसको शुद्ध भक्त — उसके लिए ज्ञान का अभाव नहीं है। बात समझ आया? अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं — भगवान खुद उसको ज्ञानी बनाते हैं। अतिथि: मुझे स्मरण करके — गीता में बताया गया है — "मुझे स्मरण करके..." प्रभुपाद: हाँ — बुद्धि-योग। जिसको भगवान बुद्धि देते हैं — और जिसको भगवान ज्ञान देते हैं — उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी, बुद्धिमान कौन हो सकता है? भक्ति सभी शामिल है— और भगवत ज्ञान में ब्रह्म ज्ञान, परमात्मा ज्ञान भी इसी में है। ब्रह्मेति परमात्मेति भगवान इति शब्द्यते (भागवत १.२.११) ब्रह्मा, परमात्मा, भगवान — ये जो है — अद्वैत-ज्ञान तत्त्व, वदन्ति तत् तत्त्वविदः तत्त्वं यज्ज्ञानमद्वयम् (भागवत १.२.११) ब्रह्मण, परमात्मा... ब्रह्मेति परमात्मेति भगवान इति शब्द्यते ज्ञान, ज्ञान, ब्रह्म ज्ञान, इसके बाद परमात्मा ज्ञान, उसको भगवत्-ज्ञान। जिसके पास भगवत्-ज्ञान हो गया उसके पास ब्रह्म ज्ञान, परमात्मा ज्ञान है। जिसके पास केवल ब्रह्म ज्ञान है उसके पास भगवत् ज्ञान नहीं है, जिसके पास परमात्मा ज्ञान है उसके पास भगवत् ज्ञान नहीं है। अतिथि: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान क्या है? ब्रह्म-ज्ञान का अर्थ क्या है? प्रभुपाद: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान जैसे सूर्य की किरण। इसका मतलब यह नहीं कि आप सूरज (बड़ा) जानते हैं। पर दोनों ही प्रकाश हैं। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) ... (हँसते हुए) प्रभुपाद: वह सोचता है कि यह सामान्य पर धूप बड़ा है, पर धूप जहाँ से निकलता है उसको छोटा मानते हैं। अतिथि: धूप जहाँ से प्रकाश आ रहा है... प्रभुपाद: यस्य प्रभा प्रभवतो जगदण्डकोटिकोटीषु अशेष-वसुधादिविभूति-भिन्नम् तद् ब्रह्म निष्कलम् अनन्तम् अशेषभूतम् (भागवत् ५.४०) ब्रह्म निष्कलम् अनन्त। अनन्त जो निर्वेश ब्रह्म है, उसी को बड़ा मानते हैं और जो जहाँ से निकलता है उसको छोटा मानते हैं। अतिथि: जैसे भगवत गीता बड़ी होगी, उसको छोटा मानते हैं। प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान, ज्ञान जो है ब्रह्म ज्ञान। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) ... भगवत्-ज्ञान। प्रभुपाद: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान, परमात्मा-ज्ञान। योगी के लिए परमात्मा-ज्ञान, और ज्ञानी के लिए ब्रह्म-ज्ञान, और भक्त के लिए भगवत् ज्ञान। तो भगवान ब्रह्म, परमात्मा... अतिथि: क्या ये अलग-अलग चरण हैं? प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: क्या ये अलग-अलग स्तर हैं? प्रभुपाद: अलग-अलग विशेषताएँ। अलग-अलग विशेषताएँ। जैसे सूर्य लोक, सूर्य देव और सूर्य रोशनी। सूर्य रोशनी जो है वह ब्रह्म ज्ञान है, सूर्य लोक जो है परमात्मा ज्ञान है, सूर्य देव जो है भगवत ज्ञान है। अतिथि: बहुत अच्छा। प्रभुपाद: तीनों चीजें एक ही हैं, परंतु अलग-अलग स्तर हैं। तो पहली स्तर है ब्रह्म ज्ञान। ब्रह्म-भूता: ब्रह्म-भूतः प्रसन्नात्मा (गीता १८.५४)। इस दुनिया में झंझट में बहुत दुखी हैं, ब्रह्म ज्ञान होने से सुखी हो जाएगा। ब्रह्म-भूतः प्रसन्नात्मा आत्मा सुखी हो जाएगा। अहं ब्रह्मास्मि। वह मुक्त हो गया। अतिथि: फिर दूसरा आता है। प्रभुपाद: फिर दूसरा। परमात्मा। फिर भगवत-ज्ञान। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: शून्य है, यही हो रहा है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: शून्य बस, शून्य लेकर खाओ, यही तो हो रहा है। यहाँ काम हो रहा है, शून्य को निकाल दिया गया है, केवल कृष्ण को लिया गया है। धर्मः प्रोज्झितकैतवोऽत्र (भागवत् १.१.२)। भगवान को छोड़कर जितना धर्म नाम से चलता है, न उसको कैतव धर्म बताया है — धोखा। अतिथि: धोखा। प्रभुपाद: धोखा उसके नोट में टिप्पणी में। श्रीधर स्वामी: अत्र मोक्षवाञ्छान् पर्यन्तं निरस्तम्। धर्मः प्रोज्झितकैतवः; कैतव-धर्म, ये मोक्षवाञ्छान् जो है — मैं मुक्त हो जाऊंगा और भगवान से एक हो जाऊंगा — ये भी निरस्त। यही भक्ति है ज्ञान-कर्माद्य अनावृतम्। ज्ञान कर्म से उसमें कोई टिंग नहीं है, शुद्ध भक्ति है। अतिथि: कौन है ये धीरे-धीरे? प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान-कर्माद्य-अनावृतम् आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानु- शीलनम् — केवल अनुकूल भाव से कृष्णानुशीलन। वह शुद्ध भक्ति है। नारद-भक्ति-सूत्र: अन्याभिलाषिता-शून्यम् ज्ञान-कर्मादि—है। सर्वोपाधि-विनिर्मुक्तम् — सब उपाधि से मुक्त। यह भी उपाधि है — मैं संन्यासी हूँ, मैं ब्राह्मण हूँ — ये भी उपाधि है। मैं पसि हूँ, मैं हिन्दू हूँ, मैं क्रिश्चियन हूँ — ये सब उपाधि है।सर्वोपाधि-विनिर्मुक्तम् — जब सब उपाधि से मुक्त हो गया,तत्परत्वेन निर्मलम्। केवल भगवत् भाव से निर्मल।उस समय आपको जो परिस्थिति है तो... हृषीकेण हृषीज्ञानीकेश सेवनं भक्तिरेक उच्यते (सीसी मध्य १९.१७०) उस समय आपका शुद्ध इंद्रिय है, वह इंद्रिय से वह सेवा है, उसका नाम है भक्ति। जब तक वह उपाधि तक है, मैं यह फैमिली मेंबर हूँ, मैं यह देश का हूँ, उसको हमारी जरूरत है, यह है वह है तब उपाधि मुक्ति नहीं है। अतिथि: इसे छोड़ना कठिन है... प्रभुपाद: हाँ, यह कठिन है पर कोई रास्ता नहीं है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। यह उपाधि है। जब उधर अमेरिका, यूरोप में भगवत भक्ति प्रचार करने के लिए गया, गार मैं उपाधि युक्त हिन्दू धर्म प्रचार करने गया तो ये सब नहीं होता। वह तो उपाधि देखता है - मैं स्वयं को एक हिंदू मानता हूँ। हाँ। फिर वे नहीं स्वीकारते। वे कहते हैं कि हमें क्रिश्चियनिटी मिली है, मुझे तुम्हारा धर्म क्यों स्वीकार करना चाहिए। निरूपाधि कृष्ण को दिया इसलिए यह संपूर्ण है। अतिथि: अस्पष्ट प्रभुपाद: हाँ, हाँ। अगर आप कहीं भी जाएं, अगर आप हिन्दू धर्म प्रचार करना चाहते हैं, तो वे हिन्दू धर्म में क्यों रुचि लेंगे? वे कुछ शब्द सुन सकते हैं। लेकिन हम हिन्दू धर्म या मोहम्मदी धर्म की बात नहीं कर रहे हैं। हम परमेश्वर के विज्ञान की बात कर रहे हैं। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। भगवान क्या है? भगवान की अवधारणा क्या है? उन्होंने वह स्वीकार कर लिया है। "हाँ, यहाँ सही अवधारणा है।" अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: वापस भगवान की ओर। प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वापस भगवान की ओर। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) मैंने 'Back to Godhead' बांटा है। प्रभुपाद: मैं व्यवस्था करूंगा बांटने की, मुझे पचास हज़ार 'Back to Godhead' मिल रहे हैं। पचास हज़ार, मैं बांटूंगा। अतिथि: उसे बताया कि मैंने इसे सही उपयोग किया। यही मैं... प्रभुपाद: आप लोग, हम सब सर्वोपाधि; कृष्ण। कृष्ण तो निरूपाधि है, सभी उपाधियों से मुक्त। कृष्ण। हमें कृष्ण को भारतीय या हिन्दू के रूप में प्रस्तुत करने की आवश्यकता नहीं। कृष्ण न तो इनमें से है। कृष्ण कहते हैं, दावा करते हैं कि "प्रत्येक जीव मेरा अंश और हिस्सा है, मैं बीज देने वाला पिता हूँ।" इसलिए इसे स्वीकार कर लिया गया है। मैंने कभी नहीं कहा कि "तुम हिन्दू बन जाओ।" वह कृष्ण को परम भगवान के रूप में स्वीकार करते हैं, और दर्शन समझने की कोशिश करते हैं। उन्हें हिन्दू बनने का क्या काम? पर वे जानना चाहते हैं कि भगवान क्या है? वह तो कर रहे हैं। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: और हमारा यहाँ है कि कृष्ण को खाली भगवान क्यों मानेंगे? इसलिए वे उलझन में हैं, यद्यपि कृष्ण भारत में प्रकट हुए। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वे कृष्ण को नहीं समझते। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं नहीं कृष्ण, उन्हें भी उत्तर दिया है: भगवान अवजानन्ति मां मूढा (BG 9.11) गधा, वे समझते हैं कि कृष्ण कोई आदमी है, मनुष्य है, उन्हें भी उपाधि दी है — मूढ़ा। अतिथि: मूढ़ा। प्रभुपाद: मूढ़ा मतलब गधा। अतिथि: (हँसी) प्रभुपाद: गधा कृष्ण को कैसे समझेगा? कृष्ण को समझाने के लिए अनेक योग साधन चाहिए: यततां अपि सिद्धानां (BG 7.3) जो सिद्धि प्राप्त की है वे कृष्ण को समझ सकते हैं। इसके लिए बहुत जन्म लेना पड़ता है: बहूनां जनमानाम अन्ते (BG 7.19) बाकी अगर कोई मूर्ख बन जाए, अस्पष्ट हो जाए, हमें इतने अनेक जन्म क्यों लेने पड़ते हैं, क्यों एकत्रित करना पड़ता है? यदि अनेक जन्मों में नहीं आना है, तो अभी कृष्ण के चरण पकड़ लो। क्यों धीरे-धीरे? अगर तुम्हें कृष्ण स्वीकारना है, तो तुरंत क्यों नहीं? यही बुद्धि है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: सवाल नहीं है कि "होना चाहिए"। जब कृष्ण कहते हैं: "मैं तुम्हें संरक्षण दूंगा", तो क्यों "होना चाहिए"? तुम कृष्ण पर विश्वास नहीं करते। वे कहते हैं: अहं त्वां सर्वपापेभ्यो मोक्षयिष्यामि (BG 18.66) तुम कृष्ण की क्षमता पर संदेह करते हो। इसका मतलब है कि तुम कृष्ण को नहीं जानते। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह क्या है? दूसरा अतिथि: कृष्ण को समझने के लिए वह जानता है कि वह कृष्ण को समझने की क्षमता से परे है। प्रभुपाद: समस्या क्या है? कृष्ण कहते हैं: "मैं सब कुछ हूँ।" तुम उसे क्यों स्वीकार नहीं करते? इसका मतलब है कि तुम कृष्ण को अपनी मर्जी से समझना चाहते हो। तुम जानबूझकर असमर्थ बन रहे हो? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं। वह दूसरी बात है। सबसे पहले समर्पण। फिर किस तरह समर्पण करोगे, वह अलग बात है, एक अलग अवस्था। वह अधिक गोपनीय है। सबसे पहले समर्पण है। अतिथि: समर्पण। प्रभुपाद: पहले तुम इस घर या इस कमरे में प्रवेश करते हो, फिर पूछते हो, मैं तुम्हारी सेवा कैसे कर सकता हूँ? वह अलग बात है। सबसे पहले समर्पण है, और बिना पूर्ण समर्पण के — कृष्ण के द्वार में प्रवेश नहीं है। अतिथि: प्रवेश नहीं। प्रभुपाद: प्रवेश नहीं। क्योंकि जो लोग कृष्ण के खिलाफ विद्रोह कर चुके हैं, जो कृष्ण बनना चाहते थे, उनकी नकल करके, वे यहां इस भौतिक जगत में हैं। इच्छाद्वेष समुत्थेना ... सर्गे यान्ति परन्तप (BG 7.27) सर्वयोनि। यह जो भौतिक जगत है, भूत्वा भूत्वा प्रलीयते (BG 8.19)। निर्माण। वे सभी जीव हैं जो इस सृष्टि में आए हैं, उन्होंने विद्रोह किया है। वे कृष्ण बनना चाहते हैं, कृष्ण की नकल करना चाहते हैं। इसलिए उन्हें मौका दिया गया, "ठीक है, तुम कृष्ण बनो। जो चाहे करो। मैं तुम्हें सुविधा देता हूँ। तुम ब्रह्मा बनना चाहते हो, ठीक है, ब्रह्मा बनो। और तुम मल की कीड़ा बनना चाहते हो, जैसा चाहो।" यह स्पष्ट है। तो ये जीव घूमते रहते हैं। कभी ब्रह्मा बनते हैं, कभी मल की कीड़ा, कभी यह, कभी वह। इसी तरह वे शरीर बदलते रहते हैं। यह भौतिक जगत है। और जब फिर वापस आता है: यद्गत्वा न निवर्तन्ते तद् धाम परमं मम (BG 15.6) तो उसे वापस नहीं आना पड़ता। त्यक्त्वा देहं पुनर्जन्म नैति मां एति सो कौन्तेय तो हमें उस स्थिति के लिए तैयारी करनी है। घर वापस कैसे जाना है, कृष्ण के पास कैसे जाना है, और उनकी सेवा में खुद को लगाना है। फिर सवाल होगा माँ के रूप में, मित्र के रूप में या ... वह बाद में सोचा जाएगा। सबसे पहले आइए जानें कि भगवान का राज्य कैसे प्राप्त करें। यह शर्त है: सर्वधर्मान्परित्यज्य मामेकं (BG 18.66) "तुम मुझे पूर्ण रूप से समर्पित हो जाओ, सारे कर्म छोड़ दो, फिर मैं तुम्हारा प्रभार लूंगा।" अहं त्वां मोक्षयिष्यामि, मोक्षायिष्यामि कृष्ण-भक्त के लिए कुछ नहीं है; मोक्ष या मुक्ति। वह कर रहे हैं, वह तुम्हारा ध्यान रखेंगे। तैयार। ठीक है। हंसदूत: श्रील प्रभुपाद ने बाबा बाल-मुकुंद और वैराग्य बाबा को और ... (अस्पष्ट) ... बॉम्बे में आमंत्रित किया और रविवार को और ४ और ५ तारीख को गीता भवन इंदौर में सुबह के लेक्चर रिकॉर्ड किए और ... (अस्पष्ट) ... बाबा बाल-मुकुंद के कमरे में और लेक्चर के ठीक बाद ५ तारीख को। अब अभी इंदौर में उनके दिव्य कृपा से उपस्थित हैं हिमावती, हंसदूत और रेवतीनंदन ब्रह्मचारी। Conversation at Gita Bhavan -- December 6, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: Begging from door to door for lakṣmī . How can I . . . (indistinct) Indian (1): (laughs) if you . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Devotee: Program for Caitanya Mahāprabhu hated when people call him Narayan . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Within this coat you are, therefore I shall not ask you coat. Indian (1): (laughs) Prabhupāda: Is that any reason? Because within the coat you are, therefore can I address you Mr. Coat? So in this way so many things are misused. Indian (1): (indistinct) . . . (background talking) Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Indian (1): Sometimes if one is usual the karma prospect, so they say. Prabhupāda: Therefore say, over respecting himself. That example I gave you. That if I say: "Your Majesty" that is insult. This is not respect it is insult. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Law of identity, he . . . one should be addressed as he is. Not more than that, not less than that. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, your Holiness. That is sufficient. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mahārāja, Swamiji, Mahārāja, Prabhupāda. This is sufficient. Indian (1): Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. A spiritual master is addressed Prabhupāda. A sannyāsī is addressed as Mahārāja, or Swamiji, like that. Indian (2): But sometimes we don't know the certain distinction between Mahārāja and Swamiji and that . . . because in India it is a common term. Prabhupāda: Swamiji, Swamiji means the master of the senses. One who is master of the senses. Generally we are servant of the senses. Generally. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (laughs) So one who has controlled his senses he is called Svāmī or Gosvāmī. Indian (1): Gosvāmī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svāmī or Gosvāmī the same thing. Go means senses and svāmī means master. Generally people are servant of the senses. So one who has controlled the senses. The senses act according to his order. He does not act according to the senses order. He is. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Acha (all right) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) (end) Conversation at Gita Bhavan -- December 6, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: Begging from door to door for lakṣmī . How can I . . . (indistinct) Indian (1): (laughs) if you . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Devotee: Program for Caitanya Mahāprabhu hated when people call him Narayan . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Within this coat you are, therefore I shall not ask you coat. Indian (1): (laughs) Prabhupāda: Is that any reason? Because within the coat you are, therefore can I address you Mr. Coat? So in this way so many things are misused. Indian (1): (indistinct) . . . (background talking) Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Indian (1): Sometimes if one is usual the karma prospect, so they say. Prabhupāda: Therefore say, over respecting himself. That example I gave you. That if I say: "Your Majesty" that is insult. This is not respect it is insult. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Law of identity, he . . . one should be addressed as he is. Not more than that, not less than that. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, your Holiness. That is sufficient. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mahārāja, Swamiji, Mahārāja, Prabhupāda. This is sufficient. Indian (1): Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. A spiritual master is addressed Prabhupāda. A sannyāsī is addressed as Mahārāja, or Swamiji, like that. Indian (2): But sometimes we don't know the certain distinction between Mahārāja and Swamiji and that . . . because in India it is a common term. Prabhupāda: Swamiji, Swamiji means the master of the senses. One who is master of the senses. Generally we are servant of the senses. Generally. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (laughs) So one who has controlled his senses he is called Svāmī or Gosvāmī. Indian (1): Gosvāmī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svāmī or Gosvāmī the same thing. Go means senses and svāmī means master. Generally people are servant of the senses. So one who has controlled the senses. The senses act according to his order. He does not act according to the senses order. He is. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Acha (all right) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 11, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: Yes, I am trying to send this girl to Russia, Moscow, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yamunā: But I think it is very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Not . . . I don't . . . we got a invitation from Czechoslovakia. That is also Communist country, but there the people invited us to open a center. *Yamunā: The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra was number one in Czechoslovakia. We have one record. I just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa over and over, the mahā*-mantra , and in that country it was the most popular of all records. *Prabhupāda: In Germany also. We sold fifty thousand records in Germany. And there is another record, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . That is also selling very nicely. And recently another record you produced? What is that? *Yamunā: Yes, that will be a long*-playing record, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Its name is Bhaja Hūre Mana , Mana Hū Re . *Prabhupāda: Ah, bhaja hūre mana, śrī nanda*-nandana , abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. Yamunā: And saṁsāra prayers, vande 'ham prayers. Prabhupāda: So that is not yet out? Yamunā: Well, from what I understood, Mr. Harrison wants to get it out before Christmas, but I have not heard from Śyāmasundara what has developed. Prabhupāda: There is one boy, George Harrison. Perhaps you know his name. He is one of the Beatles. Indian man (2): Harrison, yes. Prabhupāda: Harrison, yes. He paid me nineteen thousand dollars for my publication work, and he is a very good boy. And he is helping in pushing on our record. He is very popular. Indian man (2): Very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And he has got to sing with him. Yes. (break) . . . in London I was guest in one of the Beatles' palace. They have got each one a big, big palace. So we shall all take leave, Mahārāja. Thank you. (break) Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: She likes our movement. Yamunā: Well, she had to. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And she has seen that house also. Yamunā: She knows that we're something Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Eight to nine we have engagement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: Tonight we have another engagement, eight to nine. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So give me cold water. She is countrywoman. She is also American. Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom she is coming? Where father's . . . father's house, this? Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. So Muktānanda, how are you feeling? You are feeling all right? Muktānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So give him kanṭī . Purchase kanṭī from the market. ( japa ) If that kind of mṛdaṅga can be purchased, you find out. That's very nice. Revatīnandana: They have to be brought from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: No, the mṛdaṅga which you played. Revatīnandana: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: They're from Calcutta? Revatīnandana: That's what it says. Haṁsadūta: It's a very nice drum. Prabhupāda: Calcutta, there are many good manufacturers of musical instruments. Bengal is famous for music and hair. Girl: And hair. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Hair? Prabhupāda: There is oil in. Bengali women, they have got hair like this. My sister had so bunch. (laughter) Black hair, and very long. So Bengal is famous for hair and music. Devotee: Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, no. This is for distribution of prasāda here. (break) . . . hungry, hungry man. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness man, never he is hungry. If you are hungry, come, enjoy. We are never hungry. We are overfed. Yamunā: Yes. It's a fact. Prabhupāda: We have to fast practically by feeding others. (laughter) You are after food, we are rejecting food. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. We're having trouble avoiding it. Revatīnandana: We're trying to reject it. Haṁsadūta: I think all of us had thought when you called us to India, "Now we will have to starve." So we came, and there is so much to eat. *Revatīnandana: When we left New York City, the last Sunday, Ṛṣi*-kumāra cooked a tremendous feast. So we ate until we couldn't move, 'cause we thought it was our last feast. We thought there'd never be any more prasādam . (laughter) Now we have to . . . Prabhupāda: There was a famine in India in 1942, big famine. I particularly inquired among the disciples of my Guru Mahārāja, and even the remote village, they said that, "We have no difficulty." No. And another, there was a havoc, earthquake, in Bihar sometime in 1933 or that . . . and one of our Godbrother, Mr. Munshi Chatterjee, when he heard that quarter is completely demolished, so he was in the office. *He was thinking, "What shall I do by going home? There is no more home. Everything is . . ." Then he said: "Let me go and see." And when he came there, only his house was left. Only his house. All house dismantled. The only. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). That we have seen in many instances. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta is never vanquished. Devotee: Yes. We were thinking that he was getting special protection from the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. So be sincere, do your duty. You will never be in trouble. Never. Himāvatī: All the members of this family are attracted to you, Prabhupāda. They are becoming more and more attracted every day. Prabhupāda: But some of them are very envious that I went there with forty rupees, and I got so many boys and girls, children, they become envious. Profitable. They began to say: "Oh, it is profitable business." Is it not? So I said: "All right, I leave your country." If the Kṛṣṇa is there, I can make profit anywhere. All right. So you have to wait? Haṁsadūta: They should come any minute. Prabhupāda: So all our men are ready? Haṁsadūta: We're all ready. Prabhupāda: Four, six, eight, nine. Gopāla is sick? Just see how he is. Devotee: He has a strong fever today. Prabhupāda: Oh, then taking rest completely. Come on. Where the box are? Haṁsadūta: I haven't prepared it. Prabhupāda: You should prepare. Haṁsadūta: They have to be at least three or four . . . Himāvatī: Reinforce the handle so it's stronger. Prabhupāda: You do one thing. Have you got rope? Himāvatī: Rope? Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it. And do . . . Haṁsadūta: Bring it? Prabhupāda: Yes, rope. Haṁsadūta: You mean put a . . . yes, I'll be able to that. Prabhupāda: This palace is nice. Himāvatī: Yes. Run down, though. I noticed that the upholstery was torn. Prabhupāda: It is very old. Haṁsadūta: That knife, Prabhupāda? You have that knife? Prabhupāda: Yes. You can give to anyone in this way. Aiye . . . (indistinct Hindi) (break) *Prabhupāda: These are not legends, they are fact. Those who are not intelligent, they take it as legend. There are so many descriptions which is not within our experience—we take it as legend. Now, I gave some gentleman the example that the coconut tree. On the tree there are coconut and there are one*-kilo water. Now, how the water is transported there? Where is the pipe? Where is the pumping? Because you have got experience, if you want to get water high, you have to pump and you must have pipe. So where is the pipe and where is the pumping machine? Indian man (1): In the tree. Prabhupāda: So as you see, actually it is packed up nice, two pounds of water, very nice . . . and so nicely packed. How it has happened? What is the explanation of the scientists? According to their calculation, there must be pipe. There must be pumping. Somebody must be pumping. Where are all these? Then is it legend? It is fact. Now you explain how it is happening. If you are scientist, you explain how it is happening. Or you do that. Simply observation will not do. You must make experiment. You make a log standing like that, keep anything, and the . . . it . . . water must go. Indian man (1): Keep the water there . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): . . . and distill it. Prabhupāda: Distill it. (laughter) Then your science will be all right. And where is that, your . . .? Then what is the value of your science? If you cannot explain which is within your experience and you set aside, "Oh, it is all legend, it is all foolishness . . ." You have no knowledge about that. You admit that. How it is done, you cannot do it, or you have not attained to that standard of knowledge. You say that. Don't say it is legend. That is foolishness. You admit your weakness. If you are as equal, equal in intelligence, then explain how this water is being . . . Indian man (1): I had one discussion. So I was given to understand that the pressure in the earth sends. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do it practically. Show. (laughter) No explanation will do. Indian man (1): Only when a living thing goes into the earth, just like trees, then, only then, that thing can happen. Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a living thing like that? Indian man (1): The thing was made . . . that is nature. Prabhupāda: Then the nature is more intelligent than you. So then there are many intelligent works of nature. You do not know. Indian man (1): What is in the stars is also nature. Prabhupāda: So you have no full knowledge of nature. That's it. Then you cannot claim that you are perfect, your knowledge is perfect. Indian man (1): This example is very interesting, coconut tree. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. So many things. But there is explanation in the Vedas : parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working so wonderfully that it appears that exactly it is done by expert person. Now, take a flower, this flower. How nicely it is painted. Indian man (1): Comes out of a green thing, red. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. And how perfectly it is made, coloring. The most beautiful. Nobody can suggest that further coloring this way would have been better. No. This is parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī . Automatically it is done. Automatically. Indian man (1): And seasonal. Prabhupāda: Seasonal. Indian man (1): In one season the same thing will be done all the places. Prabhupāda: All the place. In the season in millions of trees, immediately the same flower is coming out. Indian man (1): What will bloom in summer . . . Prabhupāda: So many things, there is no explanation. They cannot simply say . . . bogus, humbug things they can present, but there is no clear explanation. Even in our body. Now, these hairs are coming out, and what is the explanation of these rascals? These hairs are coming. You're cutting, and coming. Your energy. You do not know your energy, even, what is that energy by which the hair is coming. It is from your body. That means it is your energy. The energy is within you. You do not know how many hairs are there, although it is put in by your . . . Indian man (1): Thousands, thousands of . . . (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is . . . Abodha*-jāta . Therefore a living entity is called abodha-jāta , "born ignorant, born rascal, born foolish." Abodha-jāta . *Indian man (1): Abodha*-jāta . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Abodha means no knowledge, and jāta means born. By birth he is fool, and he is claiming, "I am God." By birth he's a fool, and he's claiming, "I am God." Just see. This is illusion. This is the māyā . He cannot . . . he does not know how the hairs are growing, and he is God. Just see. "I am God." This has become a fashion, dangerous fashion. And these Māyāvādī philosophers, daridra*-nārāyaṇa , this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa . . . Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he's Nārāyaṇa. Because you are within your coat, therefore you are coat. This is their argument. Because I am in the room, I am room. Is that very sound argument? Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he is Nārāyaṇa. Aiye . (break) Mahārāja. (indistinct Hindi) Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct Hindi) (end) Conversation -- December 11, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: Yes, I am trying to send this girl to Russia, Moscow, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yamunā: But I think it is very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Not . . . I don't . . . we got a invitation from Czechoslovakia. That is also Communist country, but there the people invited us to open a center. *Yamunā: The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra was number one in Czechoslovakia. We have one record. I just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa over and over, the mahā*-mantra , and in that country it was the most popular of all records. *Prabhupāda: In Germany also. We sold fifty thousand records in Germany. And there is another record, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . That is also selling very nicely. And recently another record you produced? What is that? *Yamunā: Yes, that will be a long*-playing record, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Its name is Bhaja Hūre Mana , Mana Hū Re . *Prabhupāda: Ah, bhaja hūre mana, śrī nanda*-nandana , abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. Yamunā: And saṁsāra prayers, vande 'ham prayers. Prabhupāda: So that is not yet out? Yamunā: Well, from what I understood, Mr. Harrison wants to get it out before Christmas, but I have not heard from Śyāmasundara what has developed. Prabhupāda: There is one boy, George Harrison. Perhaps you know his name. He is one of the Beatles. Indian man (2): Harrison, yes. Prabhupāda: Harrison, yes. He paid me nineteen thousand dollars for my publication work, and he is a very good boy. And he is helping in pushing on our record. He is very popular. Indian man (2): Very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And he has got to sing with him. Yes. (break) . . . in London I was guest in one of the Beatles' palace. They have got each one a big, big palace. So we shall all take leave, Mahārāja. Thank you. (break) Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: She likes our movement. Yamunā: Well, she had to. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And she has seen that house also. Yamunā: She knows that we're something Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Eight to nine we have engagement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: Tonight we have another engagement, eight to nine. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So give me cold water. She is countrywoman. She is also American. Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom she is coming? Where father's . . . father's house, this? Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. So Muktānanda, how are you feeling? You are feeling all right? Muktānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So give him kanṭī . Purchase kanṭī from the market. ( japa ) If that kind of mṛdaṅga can be purchased, you find out. That's very nice. Revatīnandana: They have to be brought from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: No, the mṛdaṅga which you played. Revatīnandana: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: They're from Calcutta? Revatīnandana: That's what it says. Haṁsadūta: It's a very nice drum. Prabhupāda: Calcutta, there are many good manufacturers of musical instruments. Bengal is famous for music and hair. Girl: And hair. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Hair? Prabhupāda: There is oil in. Bengali women, they have got hair like this. My sister had so bunch. (laughter) Black hair, and very long. So Bengal is famous for hair and music. Devotee: Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, no. This is for distribution of prasāda here. (break) . . . hungry, hungry man. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness man, never he is hungry. If you are hungry, come, enjoy. We are never hungry. We are overfed. Yamunā: Yes. It's a fact. Prabhupāda: We have to fast practically by feeding others. (laughter) You are after food, we are rejecting food. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. We're having trouble avoiding it. Revatīnandana: We're trying to reject it. Haṁsadūta: I think all of us had thought when you called us to India, "Now we will have to starve." So we came, and there is so much to eat. *Revatīnandana: When we left New York City, the last Sunday, Ṛṣi*-kumāra cooked a tremendous feast. So we ate until we couldn't move, 'cause we thought it was our last feast. We thought there'd never be any more prasādam . (laughter) Now we have to . . . Prabhupāda: There was a famine in India in 1942, big famine. I particularly inquired among the disciples of my Guru Mahārāja, and even the remote village, they said that, "We have no difficulty." No. And another, there was a havoc, earthquake, in Bihar sometime in 1933 or that . . . and one of our Godbrother, Mr. Munshi Chatterjee, when he heard that quarter is completely demolished, so he was in the office. *He was thinking, "What shall I do by going home? There is no more home. Everything is . . ." Then he said: "Let me go and see." And when he came there, only his house was left. Only his house. All house dismantled. The only. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). That we have seen in many instances. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta is never vanquished. Devotee: Yes. We were thinking that he was getting special protection from the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. So be sincere, do your duty. You will never be in trouble. Never. Himāvatī: All the members of this family are attracted to you, Prabhupāda. They are becoming more and more attracted every day. Prabhupāda: But some of them are very envious that I went there with forty rupees, and I got so many boys and girls, children, they become envious. Profitable. They began to say: "Oh, it is profitable business." Is it not? So I said: "All right, I leave your country." If the Kṛṣṇa is there, I can make profit anywhere. All right. So you have to wait? Haṁsadūta: They should come any minute. Prabhupāda: So all our men are ready? Haṁsadūta: We're all ready. Prabhupāda: Four, six, eight, nine. Gopāla is sick? Just see how he is. Devotee: He has a strong fever today. Prabhupāda: Oh, then taking rest completely. Come on. Where the box are? Haṁsadūta: I haven't prepared it. Prabhupāda: You should prepare. Haṁsadūta: They have to be at least three or four . . . Himāvatī: Reinforce the handle so it's stronger. Prabhupāda: You do one thing. Have you got rope? Himāvatī: Rope? Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it. And do . . . Haṁsadūta: Bring it? Prabhupāda: Yes, rope. Haṁsadūta: You mean put a . . . yes, I'll be able to that. Prabhupāda: This palace is nice. Himāvatī: Yes. Run down, though. I noticed that the upholstery was torn. Prabhupāda: It is very old. Haṁsadūta: That knife, Prabhupāda? You have that knife? Prabhupāda: Yes. You can give to anyone in this way. Aiye . . . (indistinct Hindi) (break) *Prabhupāda: These are not legends, they are fact. Those who are not intelligent, they take it as legend. There are so many descriptions which is not within our experience—we take it as legend. Now, I gave some gentleman the example that the coconut tree. On the tree there are coconut and there are one*-kilo water. Now, how the water is transported there? Where is the pipe? Where is the pumping? Because you have got experience, if you want to get water high, you have to pump and you must have pipe. So where is the pipe and where is the pumping machine? Indian man (1): In the tree. Prabhupāda: So as you see, actually it is packed up nice, two pounds of water, very nice . . . and so nicely packed. How it has happened? What is the explanation of the scientists? According to their calculation, there must be pipe. There must be pumping. Somebody must be pumping. Where are all these? Then is it legend? It is fact. Now you explain how it is happening. If you are scientist, you explain how it is happening. Or you do that. Simply observation will not do. You must make experiment. You make a log standing like that, keep anything, and the . . . it . . . water must go. Indian man (1): Keep the water there . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): . . . and distill it. Prabhupāda: Distill it. (laughter) Then your science will be all right. And where is that, your . . .? Then what is the value of your science? If you cannot explain which is within your experience and you set aside, "Oh, it is all legend, it is all foolishness . . ." You have no knowledge about that. You admit that. How it is done, you cannot do it, or you have not attained to that standard of knowledge. You say that. Don't say it is legend. That is foolishness. You admit your weakness. If you are as equal, equal in intelligence, then explain how this water is being . . . Indian man (1): I had one discussion. So I was given to understand that the pressure in the earth sends. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do it practically. Show. (laughter) No explanation will do. Indian man (1): Only when a living thing goes into the earth, just like trees, then, only then, that thing can happen. Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a living thing like that? Indian man (1): The thing was made . . . that is nature. Prabhupāda: Then the nature is more intelligent than you. So then there are many intelligent works of nature. You do not know. Indian man (1): What is in the stars is also nature. Prabhupāda: So you have no full knowledge of nature. That's it. Then you cannot claim that you are perfect, your knowledge is perfect. Indian man (1): This example is very interesting, coconut tree. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. So many things. But there is explanation in the Vedas : parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working so wonderfully that it appears that exactly it is done by expert person. Now, take a flower, this flower. How nicely it is painted. Indian man (1): Comes out of a green thing, red. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. And how perfectly it is made, coloring. The most beautiful. Nobody can suggest that further coloring this way would have been better. No. This is parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī . Automatically it is done. Automatically. Indian man (1): And seasonal. Prabhupāda: Seasonal. Indian man (1): In one season the same thing will be done all the places. Prabhupāda: All the place. In the season in millions of trees, immediately the same flower is coming out. Indian man (1): What will bloom in summer . . . Prabhupāda: So many things, there is no explanation. They cannot simply say . . . bogus, humbug things they can present, but there is no clear explanation. Even in our body. Now, these hairs are coming out, and what is the explanation of these rascals? These hairs are coming. You're cutting, and coming. Your energy. You do not know your energy, even, what is that energy by which the hair is coming. It is from your body. That means it is your energy. The energy is within you. You do not know how many hairs are there, although it is put in by your . . . Indian man (1): Thousands, thousands of . . . (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is . . . Abodha*-jāta . Therefore a living entity is called abodha-jāta , "born ignorant, born rascal, born foolish." Abodha-jāta . *Indian man (1): Abodha*-jāta . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Abodha means no knowledge, and jāta means born. By birth he is fool, and he is claiming, "I am God." By birth he's a fool, and he's claiming, "I am God." Just see. This is illusion. This is the māyā . He cannot . . . he does not know how the hairs are growing, and he is God. Just see. "I am God." This has become a fashion, dangerous fashion. And these Māyāvādī philosophers, daridra*-nārāyaṇa , this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa . . . Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he's Nārāyaṇa. Because you are within your coat, therefore you are coat. This is their argument. Because I am in the room, I am room. Is that very sound argument? Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he is Nārāyaṇa. Aiye . (break) Mahārāja. (indistinct Hindi) Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct Hindi) (end) Conversation A -- December 14, 1970, Indore (The text on this page was previously the second part of: 701213 - Conversation A - Indore) Prabhupāda: Utsāhan , dhairyāt . Are you realizing the distinction between this association and others? Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty*-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you know that? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to (chuckles) foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: to utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. (aside) Oh, it will not stay. Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window. On the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay. Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the . . . Haṁsadūta: GBC? Prabhupāda: GBC. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because newspapers . . . so many newspapers have come out within the last three or four years. Of course, most of them are hippie groups, but they have become . . . people are very anxious to read something from different angle of vision. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: They are tired of old newspapers. So if we present a newspaper with our angle of vision, Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: So immediately you write to the GBC members. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . but the articles that will be in the newspaper, they will be exactly like other newspapers? Who will write them? Prabhupāda: No, articles . . . daily newspaper means there must be news. News you can purchase from the news collecting company. They will supply. At very cheap price they'll supply. And you take advertisement. Yes. You'll cover your expenses by getting advertisement and make sufficient profit. Newspaper starting is not a losing business provided you can organize. Just like ordinary newspaper, they give . . . In daily news . . . people want to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity. And those who are advertiser, they are simply concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue 100,000's of copies, then you can charge for each page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand dollars they will pay. Haṁsadūta: That means in each city we would have to have our own local press. Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. You can arrange with any newspaper place. You simply supply your matter, they will print. Just like we are getting from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and supply them. Immediately, within two hours, everything is complete. Haṁsadūta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to another city. Prabhupāda: Well, from every city we can publish. Every city there is a newspaper place. Devotee (4): (indistinct) . . . tend to buy local newspapers. And weekly's are often national, just like the national . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city, like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big, Calcutta and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta . . . Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay is really important city in India: big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But this Calcutta man, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. *So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Banerjee made . . . Surendranath Banerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Curzon, he wanted to divide Bengal, make it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee . . . he is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called "Surrender*-not." (laughter) *The spelling of the name, s*-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation, Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy's house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase. Haṁsadūta: The government house? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is better than Buckingham Palace. Such a big house. Haṁsadūta: Oh, the governor's house. The governor's house? Prabhupāda: Yes, governor's house. Haṁsadūta: It's surrounded just like made . . . Prabhupāda: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy's house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord Curzon's policy was to bring one of the princes from England and make him king of India. Haṁsadūta: King of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Curzon was very nice. Haṁsadūta: That never happened. *Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members . . . just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so*-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy . . . I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam . These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" (laughter) You cannot change his habits. Sva . . . yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ . Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and lap the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be . . . Haṁsadūta: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita . . . I have seen that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high plinth, he says it doesn't become . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow . . . the crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man—"How great I am, a very beautiful bird." Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democratic party in America is the ass. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you . . . Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses. Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant, and the Democratic party is an ass, a donkey. Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote for the asses? According to Vedic civilization there was democracy, but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned Brahmins and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king was himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmins . They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king, they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned, but his son was on the . . . just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa, but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned, but from his family, either his son or brother or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. *So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned Brahmin and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy . . . that Lord Curzon studied it, that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so*-called states . . . now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar , landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement, all the princes and zamindars , they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom: "No more kingdom, because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therefore they have taken . . . the zamindars , immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. *You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur. You saw? Yes. If you have saw . . . how nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko is ocupying, a third*-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. *And how third class, low grade. It is the sitting room, and a naked picture has . . . how much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low*-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no . . . (indistinct) . . . education, they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ . You know that story? "Again become mouse." Haṁsadūta: Oh, yeah. I've heard that. Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person, "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me." "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of . . . and when he became a tiger, he was . . . (snarling sound) (laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." (laughter) You see? *So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become the stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of this cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa —then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating. Talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low*-graded people have become. *They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā ( BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God," "I am this," "I am that," "I am free," "I am . . ." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh? Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston, because they're already equipped there. Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston. Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages. Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead . A lot of your articles were commenting about current events. Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Girirāja, you can do that? Girirāja: I could try. *Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you . . . every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then we start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram (BG 5.29). What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; *our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri . . . come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brāhma*-muhūrta , this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment. Haṁsadūta: I can tell everyone that wants a program to come at five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: If somebody wants a program, I can say: "Come and see me at five o'clock." Because after they hear you and they have maṅgala-ārati , then they will be more thoughtful about our . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, tell them. Haṁsadūta: I think that's a good idea. Prabhupāda: You can say now, "If anyone wants to see us, please come at five o'clock, early in the morning." Then I shall see how much serious he is. Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudāsa suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi. Yamunā: It might be difficult to make arrangements, Guru Mahārāja. The place where Gurudāsa is presently staying is not equipped for ten people at present. We'll have to arrange. Prabhupāda: No, we can arrange in the Birla's house. He has a nice dharmaśāla . You know Birla's house? Yamunā: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten days. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So, who invited? Girirāja: One of the people connected with the temple have associated with us in Delhi, and several have invited us. Prabhupāda: So first of all take information from the . . . (indistinct) . . . in which train they have booked our seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi Birla dharmaśāla to accommodate us immediately. So their dharmaśāla . It is Birla's dharmaśāla . First of all we have to see how they have made our seats. Revatīnandana: So the residential place belongs to Mr. Birla? Prabhupāda: No, it is a temple, very big temple. Haṁsadūta: So we should book seats for Delhi on which day? Prabhupāda: Seventeenth. Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth you want to leave? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth? Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth. Prabhupāda: No, day? Haṁsadūta: Today is Monday. Prabhupāda: Then? Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth is Thursday. Prabhupāda: Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday, seventeenth. Prabhupāda: So Thursday, before afternoon, we shall start. Devotee (3): You want to go by plane, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I am asking one ticket for plane. Devotee (3): You'll fly alone to Delhi? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: The Delhi airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask Gurudāsa to take me. For two hours I can sit down. It goes directly Delhi from here. Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Devotee (3): But the same plane. Prabhupāda: Same plane. And you come, all, by train. Haṁsadūta: Will we open a bank account here? Will we open an account in Indore? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: This morning with Mr. Holi. Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudāsa . . . we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be arriving? Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa . . .? What is that, Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, Industrial House. Industrial House. Guest (2): It's called "Industry House." Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House . . . Dhruva's full name, you know? Devotee (3): R. C. Prabhupāda: R. C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R. D. Birla, Industry House, Churchgate Reclamation . . . Haṁsadūta: Bombay West. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again. Giriraja: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Parliament is in session now? Yamunā: No. Out of session now. When it's in session then all of the politicians come from their castles and their . . . they all, most of the members of Parliament come all the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So when the Parliament begins? Yamunā: It will be . . . (indistinct) . . . it separates for about a month and then comes together. Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Aiye . Aiye . ( japa ) Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this is the best time, because she is not so preoccupied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that picture? There was picture you took there? Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . picture with a letter . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. So . . . so how long you talked with the Prime Minister? Yamunā: Maybe ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So she took some interest? Yamunā: She took a courteous interest. As I say, there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him she was pressed with other matters. A very personal friend of hers that Gurudāsa is now staying with told us that she was very impressed, her personal secretary was very impressed, and that she said—we have it on tape—that she would like to see us again and she was sorry that she didn't realize that we had been even waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have come earlier, she would have . . . (indistinct) . . . in that way she would like to hear some time in the future. Devotee (4): The next day we saw some yogī . *Prabhupāda: Pressing nose. Nose*-pressing philosophy. *Devotee (5): Haṭha*-yoga also. Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So what was his philosophy? *Yamunā: You do some exercises and know God, be self*-realized. *Prabhupāda: You should have said to him, "Are you self*-realized?" Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . a rascal, I didn't want to try. Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God . . . Devotee (5): (indistinct) . . . exercise and breathing . . . (indistinct) . . . some type of meditation performed. Yamunā: He's social svāmī , a very social svāmī . He's very polished in a material way. Devotees (5): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And smoking also? Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices. Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown svāmīs ." . . . (indistinct) Yamunā: His example of spiritual life is based on material prosperity. Prabhupāda: So why they should go to the yoga system? The science is more advanced. Before flying in the sky by a yogī he has to press his nose for so many years, and the science has given us the aeroplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose? Yamunā: You explain that in *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use, wasting time? *Revatīnandana: You said about when you walk on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing, a two*-cent yogī , because for two cents he could have taken a boat across. Prabhupāda: That's all. If that is the ultimate end of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so science has given them all opportunity. And their material science is so advanced that all this yoga system is now almost accomplished, because that is material only, material prosperity. (someone enters) Aiye . Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and get fat. Flesh*-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-eaters. Māṁsa . The skin becomes increased for flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia? Russian beauty—big belly, fat. That . . . Yamunā: Germans are like that, too. Germans. *Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fatty. Also too much ghee also. (chuckles) That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just see Marwaris. (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is . . . in Āyur Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya*-guṇa . There is a book, Dravya-guṇa . So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh—birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, You Are What You Eat. Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian. Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health. Prabhupāda: Liver? Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health. Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations. Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything. Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended. Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take? Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can. Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw . . . Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is sure that without liver extract you shall die, you can take. Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of death, it is recommended you may take anything to save your life. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even. Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant? Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara , immortal." That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today or tomorrow or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living. Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct) . . . I just have one question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was calling the name of his youngest son. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: He was thinking, but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him. Isn't that true? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling and Nārāyaṇa had to save him . . . Prabhupāda: But simply calling "Nārāyaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes. Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural. Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting, and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is the remark of Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of Ṭhākura Haridāsa and the harlot, that she began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good, and simply by that association she began to chant, or by previous association . . . Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. For three days, three days she associated. Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association, therefore she began to chant. Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason. Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. That is not. Himāvatī: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines, he wrote in some book. Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that. Direct association with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Why previously? Himāvatī: (indistinct) . . . he wants to say that previously she had done some chanting, therefore . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders. Himāvatī: You heard about that article? Prabhupāda: No. Himāvatī: That was the one that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given, it is not against the śāstra , but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Even a moment's association with a pure devotee—all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous. No. Generally it is so, but sādhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, lavamatra sādhu sanga sarva siddhi haya . You have not read in the Sanātana-śikṣā in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya ? Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect? *Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , and there are so many others, they are also reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sowing the seed, the field also must be fertile, or receptible, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal. Revatīnandana: But if the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed starts to sprout, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked. Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive again. Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to . . . that brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; *he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava*-bhakti . Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take . . . (devotees offer obeisances) *Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahma*-jyotir , that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky . . . (indistinct) . . . there's no shelter there, so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body. But spirit, being restless, can remain anywhere, and shelter . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge and blissful life. So there is no bliss. Himāvatī: Yes. Just as we require shelter because we have the body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, this living entity also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this association of Kṛṣṇa. So unless he gets that, he wants blissfulness, but—there is some spiritual blissfulness; he has no information—he comes down again to this perverted blissfulness of this material world. *Himāvatī: They don't take their pleasure in being there in the brahma*-jyotir ? They don't . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is not there. That is . . . Brahma*-jyotir is simply eternity, that's all. The same example can be given: just like sunlight. There is only light. But on a planet, the effect of the light is there—there are so many trees, so many flowers, fruits. We . . . we want varieties of pleasure. Variety is the mother of . . . Devotees: "Variety is the spice of life." Prabhupāda: Huh? Himāvatī: Spice of life. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living entities, life. We want variety. So this is the varietyless—no variety; one kind, sunlight. We require sunlight. We are so much anxious for sunlight. Not only sunlight. *Revatīnandana: It must be very boring. It is very boring in the brahma*-jyotir ? You get very bored? There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go? Prabhupāda: Bore? Haṁsadūta: Boring, dull. Prabhupāda: Yes. Himāvatī: But at first they are satisfied, aren't they, that they've achieved their goal? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They do not know. They are after brahmaṇanda , transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not know that how the real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect. Revatīnandana: When they want to come back, is it very easy for them to come back, or have they got to endure . . .? Prabhupāda: No, they automatically come back, because he is hankering after varieties. So that variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the material world. Just like so many sannyāsīs . Take Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedānta , which is liberation. He came again back to the hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedānta . Of course, he was not very much advanced. There are many. There is a sannyāsī is here, he's a . . . Kārpātrī. He is very learned and other . . . he was formerly speaking on Vedānta and other . . . now he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There are many. *Revatīnandana: The question I had is I have a hazy memory that one time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does enter into brahma*-jyotir , that he has to remain there for some long duration of time, a daytime of Brahmā or a lifetime of Brahmā. Is that correct? What is that duration? Prabhupāda: Not that. That is not like that. Revatīnandana: Not like that. Thank you. *Prabhupāda: But he feels inconvenience without varieties of life. The Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta*-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ : "Their intelligence is not clean." Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ (SB 10.2.32): "Although they rise up to the brahma-jyotir ," patanty adho tataḥ , "they again come back." Haṁsadūta: And the nirvāṇa conception of life is just before Brahman? *Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa conception is marginal position between brahma*-jyotir and this material world. Haṁsadūta: Just on the brink. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāraṇārṇava . Kāraṇārṇava . The Kāraṇa Ocean, wherefrom the beginning of creation, material creation, that is nirvāṇa . Devotee (4): Virajā . Prabhupāda: Virajā , yes. Revatīnandana: Is it possible to go there? Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. Devotee (4): Arjuna went there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: What was Arjuna's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa took him to show His friend. He did not go alone. That he could not. No. (laughter) It was Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: So he went to the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the use of making friendship with Kṛṣṇa if you cannot do that? There was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sil. He was so rich that . . . every man has different circle in younger days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase house. He said that, "If people say, 'Oh, you are friend of Motilal Sil. You have no your own house?' what people will say about me? He must have his own house." He purchased house for him. He was very big man. And there are many incidences also like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago, say about hundred years ago. He would not see that any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a house in Calcutta. Another Kṛṣṇa's friend, Sudāmā also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own place, how it has happened, palatial buildings, garden. In Kṛṣṇa, you have not read Sudāmā? Give me water. Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . mentions in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* that a devotee in attachment selects one of the Vṛndāvana . . . the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. Does that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an eternal representative of Vṛndāvana? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Let me . . . Yamunā: It says: "All inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. A devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful." Prabhupāda: Devotee . . . devoted to the Vṛndāvana inhabitants. You don't directly think of yourself that, "I shall see Kṛṣṇa as my son." Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. Yamunā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You have to follow the footsteps of Yasoda*-mā. Yamunā: Yes. You've told me that before. Prabhupāda: Then it will be success. Revatīnandana: But you've said that you are always in Vṛndāvana, so we are following a Vṛndāvana inhabitant. That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Yamunā: It says: "One should always remember the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja." Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kapoor darśana ? Devotee (4): Yes. Revatīnandana: Have we got an engagement this morning? Haṁsadūta: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: He asked if we have an engagement this morning, 8:30 . . . (indistinct) . . . Molpar. Prabhupāda: Oh, Molpar, yes. They'll send cars? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: How far is it? Haṁsadūta: It's supposed to be just in the neighborhood. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Devotee: What's his position? His Highness? Haṁsadūta: His Highness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He was formerly prince. Revatīnandana: Of this area? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He had written that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the sign of princely opulence. Revatīnandana: He's the son of this man we saw last week? This Mahārāja? It's not his son? Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also old man. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because I have to wait for Mr. Homing. I won't be going to that place, because I'll be waiting for Mr. Homing. Prabhupāda: Homing is coming? Haṁsadūta: Yes, and I . . . we'll open a bank account. Prabhupāda: That's it. *Haṁsadūta: We'll open a one*-sided account. Book account and, er . . . Prabhupāda: Book Fund account, selling, and one International Society, checking account. (devotees offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that connection? Devotee (4): Bring . . . (indistinct) . . . just now. Prabhupāda: The water? (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 14, 1970, Indore (The text on this page was previously the second part of: 701213 - Conversation A - Indore) Prabhupāda: Utsāhan , dhairyāt . Are you realizing the distinction between this association and others? Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty*-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you know that? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to (chuckles) foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: to utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. (aside) Oh, it will not stay. Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window. On the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay. Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the . . . Haṁsadūta: GBC? Prabhupāda: GBC. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because newspapers . . . so many newspapers have come out within the last three or four years. Of course, most of them are hippie groups, but they have become . . . people are very anxious to read something from different angle of vision. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: They are tired of old newspapers. So if we present a newspaper with our angle of vision, Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: So immediately you write to the GBC members. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . but the articles that will be in the newspaper, they will be exactly like other newspapers? Who will write them? Prabhupāda: No, articles . . . daily newspaper means there must be news. News you can purchase from the news collecting company. They will supply. At very cheap price they'll supply. And you take advertisement. Yes. You'll cover your expenses by getting advertisement and make sufficient profit. Newspaper starting is not a losing business provided you can organize. Just like ordinary newspaper, they give . . . In daily news . . . people want to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity. And those who are advertiser, they are simply concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue 100,000's of copies, then you can charge for each page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand dollars they will pay. Haṁsadūta: That means in each city we would have to have our own local press. Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. You can arrange with any newspaper place. You simply supply your matter, they will print. Just like we are getting from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and supply them. Immediately, within two hours, everything is complete. Haṁsadūta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to another city. Prabhupāda: Well, from every city we can publish. Every city there is a newspaper place. Devotee (4): (indistinct) . . . tend to buy local newspapers. And weekly's are often national, just like the national . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city, like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big, Calcutta and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta . . . Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay is really important city in India: big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But this Calcutta man, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. *So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Banerjee made . . . Surendranath Banerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Curzon, he wanted to divide Bengal, make it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee . . . he is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called "Surrender*-not." (laughter) *The spelling of the name, s*-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation, Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy's house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase. Haṁsadūta: The government house? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is better than Buckingham Palace. Such a big house. Haṁsadūta: Oh, the governor's house. The governor's house? Prabhupāda: Yes, governor's house. Haṁsadūta: It's surrounded just like made . . . Prabhupāda: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy's house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord Curzon's policy was to bring one of the princes from England and make him king of India. Haṁsadūta: King of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Curzon was very nice. Haṁsadūta: That never happened. *Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members . . . just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so*-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy . . . I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam . These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" (laughter) You cannot change his habits. Sva . . . yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ . Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and lap the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be . . . Haṁsadūta: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita . . . I have seen that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high plinth, he says it doesn't become . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow . . . the crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man—"How great I am, a very beautiful bird." Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democratic party in America is the ass. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you . . . Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses. Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant, and the Democratic party is an ass, a donkey. Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote for the asses? According to Vedic civilization there was democracy, but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned Brahmins and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king was himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmins . They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king, they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned, but his son was on the . . . just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa, but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned, but from his family, either his son or brother or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. *So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned Brahmin and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy . . . that Lord Curzon studied it, that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so*-called states . . . now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar , landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement, all the princes and zamindars , they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom: "No more kingdom, because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therefore they have taken . . . the zamindars , immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. *You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur. You saw? Yes. If you have saw . . . how nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko is ocupying, a third*-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. *And how third class, low grade. It is the sitting room, and a naked picture has . . . how much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low*-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no . . . (indistinct) . . . education, they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ . You know that story? "Again become mouse." Haṁsadūta: Oh, yeah. I've heard that. Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person, "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me." "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of . . . and when he became a tiger, he was . . . (snarling sound) (laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." (laughter) You see? *So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become the stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of this cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa —then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating. Talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low*-graded people have become. *They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā ( BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God," "I am this," "I am that," "I am free," "I am . . ." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh? Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston, because they're already equipped there. Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston. Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages. Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead . A lot of your articles were commenting about current events. Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Girirāja, you can do that? Girirāja: I could try. *Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you . . . every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then we start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram (BG 5.29). What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; *our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri . . . come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brāhma*-muhūrta , this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment. Haṁsadūta: I can tell everyone that wants a program to come at five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: If somebody wants a program, I can say: "Come and see me at five o'clock." Because after they hear you and they have maṅgala-ārati , then they will be more thoughtful about our . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, tell them. Haṁsadūta: I think that's a good idea. Prabhupāda: You can say now, "If anyone wants to see us, please come at five o'clock, early in the morning." Then I shall see how much serious he is. Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudāsa suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi. Yamunā: It might be difficult to make arrangements, Guru Mahārāja. The place where Gurudāsa is presently staying is not equipped for ten people at present. We'll have to arrange. Prabhupāda: No, we can arrange in the Birla's house. He has a nice dharmaśāla . You know Birla's house? Yamunā: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten days. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So, who invited? Girirāja: One of the people connected with the temple have associated with us in Delhi, and several have invited us. Prabhupāda: So first of all take information from the . . . (indistinct) . . . in which train they have booked our seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi Birla dharmaśāla to accommodate us immediately. So their dharmaśāla . It is Birla's dharmaśāla . First of all we have to see how they have made our seats. Revatīnandana: So the residential place belongs to Mr. Birla? Prabhupāda: No, it is a temple, very big temple. Haṁsadūta: So we should book seats for Delhi on which day? Prabhupāda: Seventeenth. Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth you want to leave? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth? Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth. Prabhupāda: No, day? Haṁsadūta: Today is Monday. Prabhupāda: Then? Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth is Thursday. Prabhupāda: Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday, seventeenth. Prabhupāda: So Thursday, before afternoon, we shall start. Devotee (3): You want to go by plane, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I am asking one ticket for plane. Devotee (3): You'll fly alone to Delhi? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: The Delhi airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask Gurudāsa to take me. For two hours I can sit down. It goes directly Delhi from here. Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Devotee (3): But the same plane. Prabhupāda: Same plane. And you come, all, by train. Haṁsadūta: Will we open a bank account here? Will we open an account in Indore? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: This morning with Mr. Holi. Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudāsa . . . we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be arriving? Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa . . .? What is that, Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, Industrial House. Industrial House. Guest (2): It's called "Industry House." Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House . . . Dhruva's full name, you know? Devotee (3): R. C. Prabhupāda: R. C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R. D. Birla, Industry House, Churchgate Reclamation . . . Haṁsadūta: Bombay West. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again. Giriraja: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Parliament is in session now? Yamunā: No. Out of session now. When it's in session then all of the politicians come from their castles and their . . . they all, most of the members of Parliament come all the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So when the Parliament begins? Yamunā: It will be . . . (indistinct) . . . it separates for about a month and then comes together. Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Aiye . Aiye . ( japa ) Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this is the best time, because she is not so preoccupied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that picture? There was picture you took there? Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . picture with a letter . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. So . . . so how long you talked with the Prime Minister? Yamunā: Maybe ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So she took some interest? Yamunā: She took a courteous interest. As I say, there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him she was pressed with other matters. A very personal friend of hers that Gurudāsa is now staying with told us that she was very impressed, her personal secretary was very impressed, and that she said—we have it on tape—that she would like to see us again and she was sorry that she didn't realize that we had been even waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have come earlier, she would have . . . (indistinct) . . . in that way she would like to hear some time in the future. Devotee (4): The next day we saw some yogī . *Prabhupāda: Pressing nose. Nose*-pressing philosophy. *Devotee (5): Haṭha*-yoga also. Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So what was his philosophy? *Yamunā: You do some exercises and know God, be self*-realized. *Prabhupāda: You should have said to him, "Are you self*-realized?" Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . a rascal, I didn't want to try. Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God . . . Devotee (5): (indistinct) . . . exercise and breathing . . . (indistinct) . . . some type of meditation performed. Yamunā: He's social svāmī , a very social svāmī . He's very polished in a material way. Devotees (5): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And smoking also? Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices. Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown svāmīs ." . . . (indistinct) Yamunā: His example of spiritual life is based on material prosperity. Prabhupāda: So why they should go to the yoga system? The science is more advanced. Before flying in the sky by a yogī he has to press his nose for so many years, and the science has given us the aeroplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose? Yamunā: You explain that in *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use, wasting time? *Revatīnandana: You said about when you walk on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing, a two*-cent yogī , because for two cents he could have taken a boat across. Prabhupāda: That's all. If that is the ultimate end of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so science has given them all opportunity. And their material science is so advanced that all this yoga system is now almost accomplished, because that is material only, material prosperity. (someone enters) Aiye . Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and get fat. Flesh*-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-eaters. Māṁsa . The skin becomes increased for flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia? Russian beauty—big belly, fat. That . . . Yamunā: Germans are like that, too. Germans. *Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fatty. Also too much ghee also. (chuckles) That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just see Marwaris. (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is . . . in Āyur Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya*-guṇa . There is a book, Dravya-guṇa . So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh—birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, You Are What You Eat. Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian. Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health. Prabhupāda: Liver? Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health. Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations. Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything. Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended. Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take? Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can. Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw . . . Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is sure that without liver extract you shall die, you can take. Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of death, it is recommended you may take anything to save your life. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even. Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant? Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara , immortal." That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today or tomorrow or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living. Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct) . . . I just have one question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was calling the name of his youngest son. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: He was thinking, but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him. Isn't that true? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling and Nārāyaṇa had to save him . . . Prabhupāda: But simply calling "Nārāyaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes. Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural. Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting, and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is the remark of Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of Ṭhākura Haridāsa and the harlot, that she began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good, and simply by that association she began to chant, or by previous association . . . Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. For three days, three days she associated. Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association, therefore she began to chant. Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason. Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. That is not. Himāvatī: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines, he wrote in some book. Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that. Direct association with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Why previously? Himāvatī: (indistinct) . . . he wants to say that previously she had done some chanting, therefore . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders. Himāvatī: You heard about that article? Prabhupāda: No. Himāvatī: That was the one that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given, it is not against the śāstra , but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Even a moment's association with a pure devotee—all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous. No. Generally it is so, but sādhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, lavamatra sādhu sanga sarva siddhi haya . You have not read in the Sanātana-śikṣā in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya ? Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect? *Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , and there are so many others, they are also reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sowing the seed, the field also must be fertile, or receptible, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal. Revatīnandana: But if the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed starts to sprout, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked. Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive again. Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to . . . that brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; *he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava*-bhakti . Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take . . . (devotees offer obeisances) *Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahma*-jyotir , that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky . . . (indistinct) . . . there's no shelter there, so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body. But spirit, being restless, can remain anywhere, and shelter . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge and blissful life. So there is no bliss. Himāvatī: Yes. Just as we require shelter because we have the body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, this living entity also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this association of Kṛṣṇa. So unless he gets that, he wants blissfulness, but—there is some spiritual blissfulness; he has no information—he comes down again to this perverted blissfulness of this material world. *Himāvatī: They don't take their pleasure in being there in the brahma*-jyotir ? They don't . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is not there. That is . . . Brahma*-jyotir is simply eternity, that's all. The same example can be given: just like sunlight. There is only light. But on a planet, the effect of the light is there—there are so many trees, so many flowers, fruits. We . . . we want varieties of pleasure. Variety is the mother of . . . Devotees: "Variety is the spice of life." Prabhupāda: Huh? Himāvatī: Spice of life. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living entities, life. We want variety. So this is the varietyless—no variety; one kind, sunlight. We require sunlight. We are so much anxious for sunlight. Not only sunlight. *Revatīnandana: It must be very boring. It is very boring in the brahma*-jyotir ? You get very bored? There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go? Prabhupāda: Bore? Haṁsadūta: Boring, dull. Prabhupāda: Yes. Himāvatī: But at first they are satisfied, aren't they, that they've achieved their goal? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They do not know. They are after brahmaṇanda , transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not know that how the real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect. Revatīnandana: When they want to come back, is it very easy for them to come back, or have they got to endure . . .? Prabhupāda: No, they automatically come back, because he is hankering after varieties. So that variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the material world. Just like so many sannyāsīs . Take Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedānta , which is liberation. He came again back to the hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedānta . Of course, he was not very much advanced. There are many. There is a sannyāsī is here, he's a . . . Kārpātrī. He is very learned and other . . . he was formerly speaking on Vedānta and other . . . now he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There are many. *Revatīnandana: The question I had is I have a hazy memory that one time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does enter into brahma*-jyotir , that he has to remain there for some long duration of time, a daytime of Brahmā or a lifetime of Brahmā. Is that correct? What is that duration? Prabhupāda: Not that. That is not like that. Revatīnandana: Not like that. Thank you. *Prabhupāda: But he feels inconvenience without varieties of life. The Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta*-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ : "Their intelligence is not clean." Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ (SB 10.2.32): "Although they rise up to the brahma-jyotir ," patanty adho tataḥ , "they again come back." Haṁsadūta: And the nirvāṇa conception of life is just before Brahman? *Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa conception is marginal position between brahma*-jyotir and this material world. Haṁsadūta: Just on the brink. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāraṇārṇava . Kāraṇārṇava . The Kāraṇa Ocean, wherefrom the beginning of creation, material creation, that is nirvāṇa . Devotee (4): Virajā . Prabhupāda: Virajā , yes. Revatīnandana: Is it possible to go there? Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. Devotee (4): Arjuna went there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: What was Arjuna's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa took him to show His friend. He did not go alone. That he could not. No. (laughter) It was Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: So he went to the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the use of making friendship with Kṛṣṇa if you cannot do that? There was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sil. He was so rich that . . . every man has different circle in younger days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase house. He said that, "If people say, 'Oh, you are friend of Motilal Sil. You have no your own house?' what people will say about me? He must have his own house." He purchased house for him. He was very big man. And there are many incidences also like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago, say about hundred years ago. He would not see that any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a house in Calcutta. Another Kṛṣṇa's friend, Sudāmā also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own place, how it has happened, palatial buildings, garden. In Kṛṣṇa, you have not read Sudāmā? Give me water. Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . mentions in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* that a devotee in attachment selects one of the Vṛndāvana . . . the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. Does that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an eternal representative of Vṛndāvana? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Let me . . . Yamunā: It says: "All inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. A devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful." Prabhupāda: Devotee . . . devoted to the Vṛndāvana inhabitants. You don't directly think of yourself that, "I shall see Kṛṣṇa as my son." Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. Yamunā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You have to follow the footsteps of Yasoda*-mā. Yamunā: Yes. You've told me that before. Prabhupāda: Then it will be success. Revatīnandana: But you've said that you are always in Vṛndāvana, so we are following a Vṛndāvana inhabitant. That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Yamunā: It says: "One should always remember the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja." Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kapoor darśana ? Devotee (4): Yes. Revatīnandana: Have we got an engagement this morning? Haṁsadūta: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: He asked if we have an engagement this morning, 8:30 . . . (indistinct) . . . Molpar. Prabhupāda: Oh, Molpar, yes. They'll send cars? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: How far is it? Haṁsadūta: It's supposed to be just in the neighborhood. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Devotee: What's his position? His Highness? Haṁsadūta: His Highness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He was formerly prince. Revatīnandana: Of this area? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He had written that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the sign of princely opulence. Revatīnandana: He's the son of this man we saw last week? This Mahārāja? It's not his son? Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also old man. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because I have to wait for Mr. Homing. I won't be going to that place, because I'll be waiting for Mr. Homing. Prabhupāda: Homing is coming? Haṁsadūta: Yes, and I . . . we'll open a bank account. Prabhupāda: That's it. *Haṁsadūta: We'll open a one*-sided account. Book account and, er . . . Prabhupāda: Book Fund account, selling, and one International Society, checking account. (devotees offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that connection? Devotee (4): Bring . . . (indistinct) . . . just now. Prabhupāda: The water? (break) (end) Conversation (partially recorded) -- December 26, 1970, Surat Prabhupāda: Why not preach in a systematic way under government patronage? I am alone trying for it. Indian man: I would just request you, if you can give some idea as to how we could do this in practice; otherwise it is . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot see how I am doing this Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? We don't misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Well . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, our in the bhajan Hare Kṛṣṇa we did. Perhaps we did with the boys and girls, not with adults. *Prabhupāda: No, no. You have seen our book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Indian man: And the preachers will not be proper present. Prabhupāda: No. No. I can train them. My submission is that this movement is acceptable all over the world. Indian man: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is experimented. Why not government gives this movement in a systematic way? I am trying alone in my own, individual way. Indian man: That is the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Government could understand it . . . (indistinct) . . . that this important . . . is very, very important from religious side, and people are eager for it. Indian man: Well the government difficulties, this being a secular state . . . you see, the difficulty would be . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all accept Bhagavad*-gītā . We are speaking on the Bhagavad-gītā. Indian man: Government . . . then government has to also . . . (indistinct) . . . book . . . Prabhupāda: Then why the . . . (indistinct) . . . did not accept another religious books? (break) (end) Conversation (partially recorded) -- December 26, 1970, Surat Prabhupāda: Why not preach in a systematic way under government patronage? I am alone trying for it. Indian man: I would just request you, if you can give some idea as to how we could do this in practice; otherwise it is . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot see how I am doing this Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? We don't misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Well . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, our in the bhajan Hare Kṛṣṇa we did. Perhaps we did with the boys and girls, not with adults. *Prabhupāda: No, no. You have seen our book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Indian man: And the preachers will not be proper present. Prabhupāda: No. No. I can train them. My submission is that this movement is acceptable all over the world. Indian man: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is experimented. Why not government gives this movement in a systematic way? I am trying alone in my own, individual way. Indian man: That is the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Government could understand it . . . (indistinct) . . . that this important . . . is very, very important from religious side, and people are eager for it. Indian man: Well the government difficulties, this being a secular state . . . you see, the difficulty would be . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all accept Bhagavad*-gītā . We are speaking on the Bhagavad-gītā. Indian man: Government . . . then government has to also . . . (indistinct) . . . book . . . Prabhupāda: Then why the . . . (indistinct) . . . did not accept another religious books? (break) (end) Conversation -- January 5, 1971, Bombay (Conversation with John Griesser (later initiated as Yadubara Dāsa) and Devotees at the Sea Palace Hotel in Collaba) Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a Brāhmiṇ will never accept a girl born in one śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) family not very respectful. Here family consideration is very . . . during marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family tradition, then horoscope. *The so*-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selection . . . no. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga. There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition. What is the tradition of the boy's father's family, mother's family, so many things they calculate, then the marriage settlement, "Yes." And the boy might not have seen the girl. There is no necessity of the boy seeing the girl or the girl seeing the boy. There is no necessity. After marriage, when the marriage ceremony is performed, then the boy and girl can see one another, "Oh, she is my wife." (laughter) "He is my husband." That. (aside) So. You can begin. Oh, this is another magazine, Earth . Yadubara: It's a new magazine, and this is the second issue out in America. It promised to be a very good magazine, and it hasn't turned out to be so. It's just another slick magazine. Prabhupāda: Well, unless magazines are reduced to such position, it will not be sold. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They want to make business . . . all these pictures are yours? No. Yadubara: No, just the ones on Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. Yadubara: . . . I'm happy to say. Prabhupāda: You begin . . . (break) So who will go to Hong Kong? (indistinct replies) Śyāmasundara: Shall we decide now, or shall we wait until tomorrow? Devotee: I met one man from Hong Kong yesterday, Dr. Bali, so Body and he said he'd give us financial help in Hong Kong. I will go to see him this morning. I already told him about getting here. Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also, the same men? The same two men will go to Singapore and Hong Kong. (devotees chant japa ) Do you think Revatīnandana could go? You said Revatīnandana should go? Prabhupāda: Yes, he can go. ( japa continues) Are you getting some interest with our association? Yadubara: Yes, I am. I feel the effects of chanting very much. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yadubara: It's very pleasant. Prabhupāda: And if you have got any doubts, any questions, you can inquire. That is required. Yadubara: I have been asking questions of devotees. It's hard for me to comprehend some of the things in the scriptures. I just don't understand. Prabhupāda: No, apart from scripture, from your personal understanding you can place questions. People, generally, they have no idea of God. We are placing the factual God. That is very difficult to understand. Generally they think it is an idea, fiction. But we don't think like that. We have got clear conception of God. That is the difference between our Society and all any other religious groups. They have no clear idea of God. They simply say that there is God, God is great, but no clearer. Yadubara: I think a lot of other societies make compromises. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: Many other religious groups make compromises in their doctrine. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they have no clear idea. They cannot push forward their concept. Just like the other . . . day before yesterday or yesterday the lady, she asked if Kṛṣṇa was a naughty boy. Yes, because He is God He must be naughty boy. Otherwise, wherefrom this idea of naughty boy comes if that quality is not in God? God is the origin of everything, creator of everything. So if He hasn't got this naughtiness in His person, then how this thing comes? That is the Vedānta version, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1). *The Supreme Absolute Truth is that from which or from whom everything emanates. So wherefrom this naughtiness comes if it is not in the person of God? Wherefrom this stealing propensity comes if it is not in God? But because He is absolute, His stealing is also as good as his blessing. Mākhan*-cora . Kṛṣṇa was stealing butter, that is worshiped, mākhana , by the very name. Is just like in another temple, Kṣīra-cora-gopīnātha. Gopīnātha is known as condensed milk thief, Kṣīra-cora. He is famous by the name cora , thief. But that cora and this cora , you cannot compare. He is famous as cora , or thief, but thousands of people go every day to worship that cora , that thief. And in the material, if one is known as thief, then thousands of people will beat him with shoes. (laughter) That is the difference. If you say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa was a thief, then I can become a thief," then your will be beating of shoes on your head, and Kṛṣṇa will be eternally worshiped because He is thief. That is the difference. That is Absolute. He will be worshiped as thief, and He will be worshiped as very honest. That is Absolute. (aside) No, no, this . . . (indistinct) . . . is not good. Will take little fruit. *Kṛṣṇa is a woman*-hunter. That is the highest pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, rāsa-līlā . But here if a man becomes woman-hunter, he will be most abominable person. That is the mistake of the people: they consider Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). They are rascals, fools, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . *This sense has to be learned*-Kṛṣṇa, how He is Absolute in all circumstance. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Just go and tell little lie to Droṇācārya." Now people will be surprised, how God is teaching somebody that, "You go and tell this lie"? So they become bewildered. So one has to understand actually what is Kṛṣṇa's position in all circumstances. That requires intelligence. (aside) What is this? Śyāmasundara: It's salt and pepper. *Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to learn how Kṛṣṇa is always God in any circumstance. And if he can understand this philosophy, then Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ ye jānāti tattvataḥ . "My activities, My birth, they are all transcendental. One who understands in truth," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), "after leaving this body, he no more comes to this material." *That means we can be liberated simply by understanding His activities. All the qualities are described in the Nectar of Devotion . He has got sixty*-four qualities. Unlimited quality, but for our understanding, Rūpa Gosvāmī only discussed sixty-four. Just see, that lady was speaking that she speaks to thousands and thousands of people. How ignorant she is about God. She was inquiring, "Kṛṣṇa is not . . ." That means she cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. And she is leader, thousands of people she is speaking. What is the use of her speaking if she has no clear idea? This is going on. Useless speaking. In India also, so many fools, they are accepted as very perfect. Just like Gandhi, take Gandhi. What was Gandhi? In spiritual consciousness, he is nothing. Nothing, no value. But if we say in the public, they will be angry, "Oh!" But actually there is no value, no spiritual value. He is known all over the world as a great spiritualist. He was a moralist, that's all. That is not a qualification for understanding God. Gurudas: It says: "Any activities sanctioned in the revealed scriptures and aiming at the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are accepted by saintly teachers as the regulative principles of devotional service. If somebody regularly executes such service unto the Personality of Godhead under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master, then gradually he rises to the platform of serving in pure love of God." (pause) Prabhupāda: That nonviolence. Kṛṣṇa is number one violent. (chuckles) Number one. There is no limit of His violence. Just see. Yadubara: Don't you have . . . in the material world, sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right and sometimes use violence? Prabhupāda: Only satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa is right. All wrong. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, that is right. Otherwise everything wrong. Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India, and he felt they should be thrown out. Prabhupāda: Surat? Devotee: In Surat. Prabhupāda: Surat, what happened? One man questioned? Devotee: A man in Surat brought up the question of whether the British should be removed from India. Prabhupāda: British? I do not understand. What is his real question? Śyāmasundara: Should the British have been violently thrown out of India? Yadubara: But if somebody is stepping on you, then you should take action to remove those people. Prabhupāda: Yes, our position is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not for personal self. Ordinary world activities. Serving Kṛṣṇa and the result of such service is the same. In the material world, doing something and result of the doing is different. Our means and aim is the same. Just like Kṛṣṇa advises Yudhiṣṭhira to speak lie to Droṇācārya. It is a means. The means is also Kṛṣṇa, and the end is also Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute. Absolute . . . we must have clear conception of what is the Absolute. In any circumstances, the quality of the Absolute remains the same. What was the question in Surat? Devotee: Whether the British should have been forcibly removed from India. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. Then . . . clearly said in the śāstras . If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action*-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha . *But in devotion, there is no karma*-bandha . As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāvamanyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāvamanyeta karhicit , "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta , "Never be envious of the ācārya , thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān . Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya , he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya , he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent. But if he is criticized, then that man who criticizes, he becomes . . . of course, he must be ācārya , not a bogus. Ordinary man cannot transgress the laws, but Kṛṣṇa and His representative, ācārya , might be sometimes seen that he has transgressed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). *Vaiṣṇavera kriyā , mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya . In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Vaiṣṇava ācārya , his activities is not understood even by the wisest man. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā , mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya . Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Ācārya , guru , he is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, being completely freed from all material affection. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Everything . . . everyone has got some material desire to fulfill, but a guru or ācārya has no such business. That is the symptom of ācārya . He has no more any material business. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has finished all business of material satisfaction. That is the symptom of ācārya . And śābde pare ca niṣṇātam . And he has taken full bath in the ocean of transcendental . . . (indistinct) . . . śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta (SB 11.3.21), one should surrender to such spiritual master. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam , when he is actually serious about inquiring the transcendental subject matter. Otherwise there is no need of accepting guru or ācārya . He has no business. If one is not interested in the transcendental subject matter . . . just as so many people come, they have no interest. Unnecessarily they talk and waste time. As soon as I asked that man that, "If I say something, whether you will accept?" He said, "If I like it, then I shall accept." Then why come to waste my time to inquire from me? *Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). When you go to inquire something from a person, you must fully surrender there, or you must find out a person where you can fully surrender. Otherwise, don't put any questions. Your waste of time, his waste of time. Because he will not accept. Suppose if you go to a physician, you are diseased, and the physician says, "All right, I shall give you medicine." And if you say: "Yes, I shall accept the medicine if I like it," then why do you go to that physician? What is the meaning? *The physician, one physician doctor friend, long . . . forty years ago, he prescribed one of my patient medicines. And the patient little protested because it is Indian*-made. He was Eurasian. So as soon as he questioned, "What is this medicine, Indian-made?" "Yes, it is Indian-made. If you have no such faith, don't come to me." He flatly said: "Don't come to me." That should be the position of the physician or ācārya . If you go there, you should accept whatever he says. *If you are in doubt, then don't go there. That is the position. It is freedom. It is not that you have to accept some ācārya particular by canvassing. No, you should be satisfied that, "Yes, here I can surrender, here I can gain something." Then surrender. In the spiritual science, there is no bluffing. Everything must be very clear*-cut. Otherwise it will be not very satisfactory. (break) Hear this sound, ca-caw caw . (laughter) Because nobody keeps this rooster. Yamunā: Oh, that's chicken? Oh. Prabhupāda: No, what is . . . Yamunā: Peacock? Prabhupāda: Peacock, yes. Yak, yak , like that. That sound he makes. Guru dāsa: And kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: We can hear kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Kīrtana and bell in the temple, dong , dong , dong , dong , dong , dong . This sound we will hear early in . . . *Prabhupāda: In Hawaii, this disturbance is there. (laughter) Always, ca*-caw , caw . (laughter) Devotee: There's not so much at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: There's not chickens at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: No, in neighborhood. In Hawaii, they are very much fond of. Some of them eat dogs also. Devotee: Yes, the Filipinos eat dogs. Prabhupāda: Filipino. Yadubara: Chinese also sometimes. *Prabhupāda: Dog*-eaters. Yadubara: Sometimes monkeys also. Prabhupāda: Monkey? Yadubara: Umm hmm. Monkey brain. It's very rare, but it's done. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Yadubara: Chinese. Prabhupāda: Chinese, they eat everything. (laughter) They eat rats also. Rats, snakes. They are caṇḍālas . Yadubara: They say Chinese are very practical and that they will make use of anything. *Prabhupāda: They eat man also. Yes. There was a case in Calcutta—they were eating man. They will call a hawker, "Come in, I shall purchase." And as soon as he enters, he never comes back. There were two hawkers. So one entered the house and other was waiting. But when he saw that he is not coming, he went to the police that, "My friend, he went but he is not coming." The police inquired and made a search, whole house, there were so many human bones, they're eating. Man*-eater. Man-eater, in Africa there are many. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Cannibals, and they eat white man very . . . they like white. Yadubara: In pot. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They will mislead some white man and . . . in India also there is this class. In Assam side. They eat man. Man mean, they regularly sacrifice before the Goddess Durgā and eat. Ahiravan, Rāvaṇa's brother. The Red Indians, they also eat, in America. Do they not? Yamunā: They used to. There are no left anymore. Prabhupāda: "Used to" means who knows what they are doing now. Yamunā: The white men came and killed them. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they kill for eating. That is . . . fighting or for taking possession, killing, that is everywhere. That is not extraordinary. But killing for eating a man, that is extraordinary. (chuckles) *Devotee: That's only in Kali*-yuga, yes, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Only in . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, all the yugas . More or less. (aside) So when we shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: I'll just see if the car is here. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . have to take away Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. The Japanese, they also eat everything? No. Devotee: Not now. Prabhupāda: Some of them? Devotee: In times of war, I think all people . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but generally. *Devotee: No, they don't. In China, the island of Taiwan, the original inhabitants, they were known as man*-eaters. *Prabhupāda: Man*-eaters? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this Calcutta story is not a story, it is fact. Hmm? Guru dāsa: I was asking Yamunā about the tape. Prabhupāda: Tape? Guru dāsa: About this tape recording. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not the question of, "The Chinese are eating, I am not eating." It is a question that how many number of different types of body I got. It is not that I am talking of Chinaman eating man or dog. I may be in that form, next life. So, therefore, the problem is how to stop this transmigration of the soul. That is the problem. Not that because the Chinese man eats something else other than I eat, that does not mean that I am very much . . . *(break) Therefore, we have to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to have next. That is human civilization. But they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. They do not believe in God. They do not believe in anything. Simply just like animals. This life—eating, sleeping, mating—do it to your best capacity. That is Kali*-yuga. They have no knowledge, neither they are interested to know. Mandāḥ . And even they become little interested of spiritual . . . a hodgepodge, no clear idea. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo (SB 1.1.10). And unfortunate, harassed in every field of life. *And hy upadrutāḥ . And over and above everything, they are always disturbed by external enemies. This is the position of Kali*-yuga. And this life shortened, duration of life. So how they can advance by following the regular Vedic process? It is not possible. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). No car? Śyāmasundara: Not yet come. Prabhupāda: Uh? Śyāmasundara: He will ring as soon as it comes. He telephoned it is on its way. It should be here any moment. (pause) *Prabhupāda: They are so slow. They do not understand the spiritual value of life, and simply they are satisfied with something hodgepodge, that's all. The entire population of the present*-day world. (break) Just like the hippies. There are so many hippies. They want something spiritual, but no clear . . . something hodgepodge, that's all. Yadubara: Has this happened before, the material wealth that we have now? Has it happened in past ages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Technological advancement, scientific? *Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali*-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. *The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali*-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if—all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. *You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali*-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life. If we do not make our . . . revive our lost relationship with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, then this human form of life means knowingly you are drinking poison. This Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they are Vedic songs written in plain Bengali language. *People are already mad, and the so*-called rascal leaders making them more and more mad. That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). So-called scientists, so-called religious leaders, all rascals. If we say that all rascals, we are only intelligent, (laughter) they will not be very happy. But that will be fact, try to understand it. Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: They have no conception of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They just don't understand. Prabhupāda: Only intelligent person can understand. If you can understand, then you are intelligent. Are you understanding or not? Yadubara: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then why you are not understanding yet? We have given free scope. What is your reason of not understanding? Yadubara: I think I understand a little bit, gradually. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you understand little bit, that will give you great benefit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato (BG 2.40). If you understand little, that means your door is open. Just like sometimes there is boil. If little mouth is open, that means that is the beginning of oozing out all the pus. It will gradually open, and that is the natural venue. Open and it will be cured. So little understanding is also very good. Then you will understand further. What you have understood now? Yadubara: What have I understood? I understand that the chant has potency, has some meaning for me. And I understand on the basis of what I've done before, on the basis of my experience, what I've seen around me, I've seen that conditions are not good. And I've seen the conditions in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are much better and the feeling is much better. Prabhupāda: That is very good sign. Yes. Yadubara: So I think it must have some worth. There must be something here. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can discuss with these boys and girls. Try to understand. Here there is nothing dogmatic. Even something appears to be dogmatic, it is not dogmatic. Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, if we just associate long enough, then it will act upon you. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if we open our heart, then open*-heartedly, then it will be nice. No reservation. And that open-heartedness means free from designation. That is open-heartedness. If I think, "Oh, I am American. Why shall I take this Indian philosophy?" Or if I think, "I am Christian. Why shall I take the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā ?" then it will not work. One has to be free from these designations. Then it will be easy. I am . . . God is God, and I am also part and parcel of God, my relationship with God. *So let me understand what is that relationship, what is God, what I am. That freedom, that open*-heartedness will make it. But if I try to understand as Christian, as Englishman, as Japanese, as Indian, then it will be difficult. Many of our students joined, even initiated, but they could not make them free from these stereotyped ideas. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). One must be free from the . . . aiye aiye . So let us go. Take the box. (break) Devotee: I'll try and please you, but I don't think I can do such a nice job. Prabhupāda: I have seen the Sai's photo. From his photograph, it appears he has a guru . From his appearance, I can understand. (break) Devotee: I feel that it is my duty to see that the devotees who are staying at the other temples are respectful and are following your wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Some things that Sai mentioned in that letter that I should answer, he asked about photographs, spiritual photographs. Prabhupāda: My photograph? Devotee: Yes, he said something about photographs, that the devotees had photographs of him and he didn't want them to have them if you didn't want them to. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not harmful. He can . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- January 5, 1971, Bombay (Conversation with John Griesser (later initiated as Yadubara Dāsa) and Devotees at the Sea Palace Hotel in Collaba) Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a Brāhmiṇ will never accept a girl born in one śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) family not very respectful. Here family consideration is very . . . during marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family tradition, then horoscope. *The so*-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selection . . . no. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga. There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition. What is the tradition of the boy's father's family, mother's family, so many things they calculate, then the marriage settlement, "Yes." And the boy might not have seen the girl. There is no necessity of the boy seeing the girl or the girl seeing the boy. There is no necessity. After marriage, when the marriage ceremony is performed, then the boy and girl can see one another, "Oh, she is my wife." (laughter) "He is my husband." That. (aside) So. You can begin. Oh, this is another magazine, Earth . Yadubara: It's a new magazine, and this is the second issue out in America. It promised to be a very good magazine, and it hasn't turned out to be so. It's just another slick magazine. Prabhupāda: Well, unless magazines are reduced to such position, it will not be sold. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They want to make business . . . all these pictures are yours? No. Yadubara: No, just the ones on Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. Yadubara: . . . I'm happy to say. Prabhupāda: You begin . . . (break) So who will go to Hong Kong? (indistinct replies) Śyāmasundara: Shall we decide now, or shall we wait until tomorrow? Devotee: I met one man from Hong Kong yesterday, Dr. Bali, so Body and he said he'd give us financial help in Hong Kong. I will go to see him this morning. I already told him about getting here. Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also, the same men? The same two men will go to Singapore and Hong Kong. (devotees chant japa ) Do you think Revatīnandana could go? You said Revatīnandana should go? Prabhupāda: Yes, he can go. ( japa continues) Are you getting some interest with our association? Yadubara: Yes, I am. I feel the effects of chanting very much. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yadubara: It's very pleasant. Prabhupāda: And if you have got any doubts, any questions, you can inquire. That is required. Yadubara: I have been asking questions of devotees. It's hard for me to comprehend some of the things in the scriptures. I just don't understand. Prabhupāda: No, apart from scripture, from your personal understanding you can place questions. People, generally, they have no idea of God. We are placing the factual God. That is very difficult to understand. Generally they think it is an idea, fiction. But we don't think like that. We have got clear conception of God. That is the difference between our Society and all any other religious groups. They have no clear idea of God. They simply say that there is God, God is great, but no clearer. Yadubara: I think a lot of other societies make compromises. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: Many other religious groups make compromises in their doctrine. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they have no clear idea. They cannot push forward their concept. Just like the other . . . day before yesterday or yesterday the lady, she asked if Kṛṣṇa was a naughty boy. Yes, because He is God He must be naughty boy. Otherwise, wherefrom this idea of naughty boy comes if that quality is not in God? God is the origin of everything, creator of everything. So if He hasn't got this naughtiness in His person, then how this thing comes? That is the Vedānta version, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1). *The Supreme Absolute Truth is that from which or from whom everything emanates. So wherefrom this naughtiness comes if it is not in the person of God? Wherefrom this stealing propensity comes if it is not in God? But because He is absolute, His stealing is also as good as his blessing. Mākhan*-cora . Kṛṣṇa was stealing butter, that is worshiped, mākhana , by the very name. Is just like in another temple, Kṣīra-cora-gopīnātha. Gopīnātha is known as condensed milk thief, Kṣīra-cora. He is famous by the name cora , thief. But that cora and this cora , you cannot compare. He is famous as cora , or thief, but thousands of people go every day to worship that cora , that thief. And in the material, if one is known as thief, then thousands of people will beat him with shoes. (laughter) That is the difference. If you say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa was a thief, then I can become a thief," then your will be beating of shoes on your head, and Kṛṣṇa will be eternally worshiped because He is thief. That is the difference. That is Absolute. He will be worshiped as thief, and He will be worshiped as very honest. That is Absolute. (aside) No, no, this . . . (indistinct) . . . is not good. Will take little fruit. *Kṛṣṇa is a woman*-hunter. That is the highest pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, rāsa-līlā . But here if a man becomes woman-hunter, he will be most abominable person. That is the mistake of the people: they consider Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). They are rascals, fools, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . *This sense has to be learned*-Kṛṣṇa, how He is Absolute in all circumstance. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Just go and tell little lie to Droṇācārya." Now people will be surprised, how God is teaching somebody that, "You go and tell this lie"? So they become bewildered. So one has to understand actually what is Kṛṣṇa's position in all circumstances. That requires intelligence. (aside) What is this? Śyāmasundara: It's salt and pepper. *Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to learn how Kṛṣṇa is always God in any circumstance. And if he can understand this philosophy, then Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ ye jānāti tattvataḥ . "My activities, My birth, they are all transcendental. One who understands in truth," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), "after leaving this body, he no more comes to this material." *That means we can be liberated simply by understanding His activities. All the qualities are described in the Nectar of Devotion . He has got sixty*-four qualities. Unlimited quality, but for our understanding, Rūpa Gosvāmī only discussed sixty-four. Just see, that lady was speaking that she speaks to thousands and thousands of people. How ignorant she is about God. She was inquiring, "Kṛṣṇa is not . . ." That means she cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. And she is leader, thousands of people she is speaking. What is the use of her speaking if she has no clear idea? This is going on. Useless speaking. In India also, so many fools, they are accepted as very perfect. Just like Gandhi, take Gandhi. What was Gandhi? In spiritual consciousness, he is nothing. Nothing, no value. But if we say in the public, they will be angry, "Oh!" But actually there is no value, no spiritual value. He is known all over the world as a great spiritualist. He was a moralist, that's all. That is not a qualification for understanding God. Gurudas: It says: "Any activities sanctioned in the revealed scriptures and aiming at the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are accepted by saintly teachers as the regulative principles of devotional service. If somebody regularly executes such service unto the Personality of Godhead under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master, then gradually he rises to the platform of serving in pure love of God." (pause) Prabhupāda: That nonviolence. Kṛṣṇa is number one violent. (chuckles) Number one. There is no limit of His violence. Just see. Yadubara: Don't you have . . . in the material world, sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right and sometimes use violence? Prabhupāda: Only satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa is right. All wrong. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, that is right. Otherwise everything wrong. Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India, and he felt they should be thrown out. Prabhupāda: Surat? Devotee: In Surat. Prabhupāda: Surat, what happened? One man questioned? Devotee: A man in Surat brought up the question of whether the British should be removed from India. Prabhupāda: British? I do not understand. What is his real question? Śyāmasundara: Should the British have been violently thrown out of India? Yadubara: But if somebody is stepping on you, then you should take action to remove those people. Prabhupāda: Yes, our position is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not for personal self. Ordinary world activities. Serving Kṛṣṇa and the result of such service is the same. In the material world, doing something and result of the doing is different. Our means and aim is the same. Just like Kṛṣṇa advises Yudhiṣṭhira to speak lie to Droṇācārya. It is a means. The means is also Kṛṣṇa, and the end is also Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute. Absolute . . . we must have clear conception of what is the Absolute. In any circumstances, the quality of the Absolute remains the same. What was the question in Surat? Devotee: Whether the British should have been forcibly removed from India. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. Then . . . clearly said in the śāstras . If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action*-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha . *But in devotion, there is no karma*-bandha . As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāvamanyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāvamanyeta karhicit , "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta , "Never be envious of the ācārya , thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān . Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya , he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya , he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent. But if he is criticized, then that man who criticizes, he becomes . . . of course, he must be ācārya , not a bogus. Ordinary man cannot transgress the laws, but Kṛṣṇa and His representative, ācārya , might be sometimes seen that he has transgressed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). *Vaiṣṇavera kriyā , mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya . In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Vaiṣṇava ācārya , his activities is not understood even by the wisest man. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā , mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya . Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Ācārya , guru , he is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, being completely freed from all material affection. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Everything . . . everyone has got some material desire to fulfill, but a guru or ācārya has no such business. That is the symptom of ācārya . He has no more any material business. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has finished all business of material satisfaction. That is the symptom of ācārya . And śābde pare ca niṣṇātam . And he has taken full bath in the ocean of transcendental . . . (indistinct) . . . śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta (SB 11.3.21), one should surrender to such spiritual master. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam , when he is actually serious about inquiring the transcendental subject matter. Otherwise there is no need of accepting guru or ācārya . He has no business. If one is not interested in the transcendental subject matter . . . just as so many people come, they have no interest. Unnecessarily they talk and waste time. As soon as I asked that man that, "If I say something, whether you will accept?" He said, "If I like it, then I shall accept." Then why come to waste my time to inquire from me? *Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). When you go to inquire something from a person, you must fully surrender there, or you must find out a person where you can fully surrender. Otherwise, don't put any questions. Your waste of time, his waste of time. Because he will not accept. Suppose if you go to a physician, you are diseased, and the physician says, "All right, I shall give you medicine." And if you say: "Yes, I shall accept the medicine if I like it," then why do you go to that physician? What is the meaning? *The physician, one physician doctor friend, long . . . forty years ago, he prescribed one of my patient medicines. And the patient little protested because it is Indian*-made. He was Eurasian. So as soon as he questioned, "What is this medicine, Indian-made?" "Yes, it is Indian-made. If you have no such faith, don't come to me." He flatly said: "Don't come to me." That should be the position of the physician or ācārya . If you go there, you should accept whatever he says. *If you are in doubt, then don't go there. That is the position. It is freedom. It is not that you have to accept some ācārya particular by canvassing. No, you should be satisfied that, "Yes, here I can surrender, here I can gain something." Then surrender. In the spiritual science, there is no bluffing. Everything must be very clear*-cut. Otherwise it will be not very satisfactory. (break) Hear this sound, ca-caw caw . (laughter) Because nobody keeps this rooster. Yamunā: Oh, that's chicken? Oh. Prabhupāda: No, what is . . . Yamunā: Peacock? Prabhupāda: Peacock, yes. Yak, yak , like that. That sound he makes. Guru dāsa: And kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: We can hear kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Kīrtana and bell in the temple, dong , dong , dong , dong , dong , dong . This sound we will hear early in . . . *Prabhupāda: In Hawaii, this disturbance is there. (laughter) Always, ca*-caw , caw . (laughter) Devotee: There's not so much at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: There's not chickens at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: No, in neighborhood. In Hawaii, they are very much fond of. Some of them eat dogs also. Devotee: Yes, the Filipinos eat dogs. Prabhupāda: Filipino. Yadubara: Chinese also sometimes. *Prabhupāda: Dog*-eaters. Yadubara: Sometimes monkeys also. Prabhupāda: Monkey? Yadubara: Umm hmm. Monkey brain. It's very rare, but it's done. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Yadubara: Chinese. Prabhupāda: Chinese, they eat everything. (laughter) They eat rats also. Rats, snakes. They are caṇḍālas . Yadubara: They say Chinese are very practical and that they will make use of anything. *Prabhupāda: They eat man also. Yes. There was a case in Calcutta—they were eating man. They will call a hawker, "Come in, I shall purchase." And as soon as he enters, he never comes back. There were two hawkers. So one entered the house and other was waiting. But when he saw that he is not coming, he went to the police that, "My friend, he went but he is not coming." The police inquired and made a search, whole house, there were so many human bones, they're eating. Man*-eater. Man-eater, in Africa there are many. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Cannibals, and they eat white man very . . . they like white. Yadubara: In pot. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They will mislead some white man and . . . in India also there is this class. In Assam side. They eat man. Man mean, they regularly sacrifice before the Goddess Durgā and eat. Ahiravan, Rāvaṇa's brother. The Red Indians, they also eat, in America. Do they not? Yamunā: They used to. There are no left anymore. Prabhupāda: "Used to" means who knows what they are doing now. Yamunā: The white men came and killed them. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they kill for eating. That is . . . fighting or for taking possession, killing, that is everywhere. That is not extraordinary. But killing for eating a man, that is extraordinary. (chuckles) *Devotee: That's only in Kali*-yuga, yes, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Only in . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, all the yugas . More or less. (aside) So when we shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: I'll just see if the car is here. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . have to take away Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. The Japanese, they also eat everything? No. Devotee: Not now. Prabhupāda: Some of them? Devotee: In times of war, I think all people . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but generally. *Devotee: No, they don't. In China, the island of Taiwan, the original inhabitants, they were known as man*-eaters. *Prabhupāda: Man*-eaters? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this Calcutta story is not a story, it is fact. Hmm? Guru dāsa: I was asking Yamunā about the tape. Prabhupāda: Tape? Guru dāsa: About this tape recording. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not the question of, "The Chinese are eating, I am not eating." It is a question that how many number of different types of body I got. It is not that I am talking of Chinaman eating man or dog. I may be in that form, next life. So, therefore, the problem is how to stop this transmigration of the soul. That is the problem. Not that because the Chinese man eats something else other than I eat, that does not mean that I am very much . . . *(break) Therefore, we have to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to have next. That is human civilization. But they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. They do not believe in God. They do not believe in anything. Simply just like animals. This life—eating, sleeping, mating—do it to your best capacity. That is Kali*-yuga. They have no knowledge, neither they are interested to know. Mandāḥ . And even they become little interested of spiritual . . . a hodgepodge, no clear idea. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo (SB 1.1.10). And unfortunate, harassed in every field of life. *And hy upadrutāḥ . And over and above everything, they are always disturbed by external enemies. This is the position of Kali*-yuga. And this life shortened, duration of life. So how they can advance by following the regular Vedic process? It is not possible. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). No car? Śyāmasundara: Not yet come. Prabhupāda: Uh? Śyāmasundara: He will ring as soon as it comes. He telephoned it is on its way. It should be here any moment. (pause) *Prabhupāda: They are so slow. They do not understand the spiritual value of life, and simply they are satisfied with something hodgepodge, that's all. The entire population of the present*-day world. (break) Just like the hippies. There are so many hippies. They want something spiritual, but no clear . . . something hodgepodge, that's all. Yadubara: Has this happened before, the material wealth that we have now? Has it happened in past ages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Technological advancement, scientific? *Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali*-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. *The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali*-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if—all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. *You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali*-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life. If we do not make our . . . revive our lost relationship with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, then this human form of life means knowingly you are drinking poison. This Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they are Vedic songs written in plain Bengali language. *People are already mad, and the so*-called rascal leaders making them more and more mad. That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). So-called scientists, so-called religious leaders, all rascals. If we say that all rascals, we are only intelligent, (laughter) they will not be very happy. But that will be fact, try to understand it. Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: They have no conception of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They just don't understand. Prabhupāda: Only intelligent person can understand. If you can understand, then you are intelligent. Are you understanding or not? Yadubara: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then why you are not understanding yet? We have given free scope. What is your reason of not understanding? Yadubara: I think I understand a little bit, gradually. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you understand little bit, that will give you great benefit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato (BG 2.40). If you understand little, that means your door is open. Just like sometimes there is boil. If little mouth is open, that means that is the beginning of oozing out all the pus. It will gradually open, and that is the natural venue. Open and it will be cured. So little understanding is also very good. Then you will understand further. What you have understood now? Yadubara: What have I understood? I understand that the chant has potency, has some meaning for me. And I understand on the basis of what I've done before, on the basis of my experience, what I've seen around me, I've seen that conditions are not good. And I've seen the conditions in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are much better and the feeling is much better. Prabhupāda: That is very good sign. Yes. Yadubara: So I think it must have some worth. There must be something here. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can discuss with these boys and girls. Try to understand. Here there is nothing dogmatic. Even something appears to be dogmatic, it is not dogmatic. Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, if we just associate long enough, then it will act upon you. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if we open our heart, then open*-heartedly, then it will be nice. No reservation. And that open-heartedness means free from designation. That is open-heartedness. If I think, "Oh, I am American. Why shall I take this Indian philosophy?" Or if I think, "I am Christian. Why shall I take the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā ?" then it will not work. One has to be free from these designations. Then it will be easy. I am . . . God is God, and I am also part and parcel of God, my relationship with God. *So let me understand what is that relationship, what is God, what I am. That freedom, that open*-heartedness will make it. But if I try to understand as Christian, as Englishman, as Japanese, as Indian, then it will be difficult. Many of our students joined, even initiated, but they could not make them free from these stereotyped ideas. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). One must be free from the . . . aiye aiye . So let us go. Take the box. (break) Devotee: I'll try and please you, but I don't think I can do such a nice job. Prabhupāda: I have seen the Sai's photo. From his photograph, it appears he has a guru . From his appearance, I can understand. (break) Devotee: I feel that it is my duty to see that the devotees who are staying at the other temples are respectful and are following your wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Some things that Sai mentioned in that letter that I should answer, he asked about photographs, spiritual photographs. Prabhupāda: My photograph? Devotee: Yes, he said something about photographs, that the devotees had photographs of him and he didn't want them to have them if you didn't want them to. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not harmful. He can . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- January 25, 1971, Allahabad Prabhupāda: . . . and Viṣṇu mand . . . temple we are protected from 12 sides. Devotee: Prabhupāda if you don't have any kind of tilaka can you put on with water. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: If you don't have tilaka . Prabhupāda: Why you? Why you will not have? You carry tilaka . Why water? Devotee: I mean . . . (indistinct) . . . that tilaka is washed over something. Prabhupāda: "Washed over," see again people. Just like ready . . . (indistinct) . . . powderpuff. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Why don't you do that? Why don't you do like that? Eh? If they can carry. What is that? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . handbag. Prabhupāda: No there is a technical name. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mādrī? What is that name? You never. You have left it? All right. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Anyway the ladies carry some bag. Devotee: Lady purse. Prabhupāda: Eh? Lady purse. That's all right. So you carry something like that. And you know there is no . . . (indistinct) . . . just like we do sometimes, sometimes in aeroplane. You have to do that. Keep always a trademark. And our trade is Kṛṣṇa business. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like you have this. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . sandalwood or. Prabhupāda: No wood, any matti se ho jayega. (clay will do.) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: It is called gopī*-candana . Gopī-candana . This is available . . . Indian: Available in the markets. Prabhupāda: Which is known as also Multan Muskit. So there is agreement, so keep a little small mirror. And a piece of. There is no . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We are without . . . Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes. But. My Guru Mahārāja without mirror he could, and what is there? We can do also . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? There is this, tilaka , ūrdhva*-puṇḍra . This is for Vaiṣṇavas or demigods. And this is for the demons. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Demons. Because demons are, they are devotees just like Rāvaṇa. He was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. You know that? But he was known as a demon. Is it not? Why? Rāvaṇa was a great devotee, Hiraṇyakaśipu was a great devotee of Brahmā but he was known as a demon. Is it not? Yes. Anyone who defies the authority of Viṣṇu or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is a demon. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daivaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). *Those who are devotees of Viṣṇu, they are devatās . And those who are opposite number, maybe devotees of anyone else. Very good man but he was a demon. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparayāt , anyone who is not a Viṣṇu bhakta, he is a demon. What is that? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, so if we tell the truth there is demoniac. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So it doesn't matter whether a sannyāsī . Rāvaṇa was also sannyāsī his purpose was to kidnap Sītā. Is it not? He was . . . he kidnapped Sītā in the dress of a sannyāsī . Therefore he is a demon. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Sannyāsī is mahātmā a devotee. Jo sab samay bhajan karta hai woh, sannyasi hai woh, mahatama . . . (indistinct) . . . (One who chants all the time, he is a sannyāsī or mahātmā . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Aapne kal kaha thaa . . . (You had spoken yesterday) . . . Prabhupāda: Haan yahi, yeh toh baat hai. (Yes, that was what we spoke about.) Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He's demon. The demons also are sometimes are very powerful. They are very learned also sometimes. Just like Rāvaṇa was very learned, very powerful, but he was a demon. Kaṁsa was also very powerful, Hiraṇyakaśipu was so powerful that all the demigods would faint by seeing his angry eyes. Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja says like that, "My dear Lord, you are trying to give me material benefits, thank you very much. But I have seen my father was so materially powerful that simply by seeing his angry eyes the demigods would faint. But you have seen it, they want it. So what is the value of this, why you are offering this." So that . . . What is the value of this material benefit, it is known to the devotees. Therefore it is said that they are not interested. They are simply interested in serving the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is their only offer. They are no more interested in anything else. And that is mukti , when one is situated in that position that he has no more anything to do with anything else except Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . he is immediately liberated. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda which Canto is Ajāmila . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Which Canto in *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Arjuna? Devotee: Ajāmila . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? fifth canto? What is his question? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Speak one. Either you speak or they speak. Why you take two? What is the question? I cannot understand. What is that? Devotee: He wants to know what Canto, what Ajāmila story is from.? Prabhupāda: Oh, sixth Canto. That's all right. I could not follow the Ajāmila pronunciation. Therefore I was puzzled. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . now at college, there was one Mr. Carmichael. He was Scotsman. So all the Scotsman they used to say dyuty. Not duty. Buety, that is for beauty. Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So, one, one (laughs) of our class friends, his name was Pramuka Mukarjay I remember. He was very cunning. So he stood up, "Sir, is that Scot's pronunciation?" He became very much angry. Mr. Carmichael. (laughs) "Yes, that is English pronunciation." He said like. "That is correct English pronunciation." . . . (indistinct) Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this pronunciation, that trouble is our. There is a secular place I think they are different soldiers from different provinces. They were speaking and nobody could understand. There was a trouble. What is that book? King Lear or something. These difficulties are always there. Even in India the pronunciations are different . . . no one can tell you. (end) Conversation -- January 25, 1971, Allahabad Prabhupāda: . . . and Viṣṇu mand . . . temple we are protected from 12 sides. Devotee: Prabhupāda if you don't have any kind of tilaka can you put on with water. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: If you don't have tilaka . Prabhupāda: Why you? Why you will not have? You carry tilaka . Why water? Devotee: I mean . . . (indistinct) . . . that tilaka is washed over something. Prabhupāda: "Washed over," see again people. Just like ready . . . (indistinct) . . . powderpuff. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Why don't you do that? Why don't you do like that? Eh? If they can carry. What is that? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . handbag. Prabhupāda: No there is a technical name. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mādrī? What is that name? You never. You have left it? All right. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Anyway the ladies carry some bag. Devotee: Lady purse. Prabhupāda: Eh? Lady purse. That's all right. So you carry something like that. And you know there is no . . . (indistinct) . . . just like we do sometimes, sometimes in aeroplane. You have to do that. Keep always a trademark. And our trade is Kṛṣṇa business. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like you have this. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . sandalwood or. Prabhupāda: No wood, any matti se ho jayega. (clay will do.) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: It is called gopī*-candana . Gopī-candana . This is available . . . Indian: Available in the markets. Prabhupāda: Which is known as also Multan Muskit. So there is agreement, so keep a little small mirror. And a piece of. There is no . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We are without . . . Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes. But. My Guru Mahārāja without mirror he could, and what is there? We can do also . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? There is this, tilaka , ūrdhva*-puṇḍra . This is for Vaiṣṇavas or demigods. And this is for the demons. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Demons. Because demons are, they are devotees just like Rāvaṇa. He was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. You know that? But he was known as a demon. Is it not? Why? Rāvaṇa was a great devotee, Hiraṇyakaśipu was a great devotee of Brahmā but he was known as a demon. Is it not? Yes. Anyone who defies the authority of Viṣṇu or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is a demon. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daivaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). *Those who are devotees of Viṣṇu, they are devatās . And those who are opposite number, maybe devotees of anyone else. Very good man but he was a demon. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparayāt , anyone who is not a Viṣṇu bhakta, he is a demon. What is that? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, so if we tell the truth there is demoniac. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So it doesn't matter whether a sannyāsī . Rāvaṇa was also sannyāsī his purpose was to kidnap Sītā. Is it not? He was . . . he kidnapped Sītā in the dress of a sannyāsī . Therefore he is a demon. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Sannyāsī is mahātmā a devotee. Jo sab samay bhajan karta hai woh, sannyasi hai woh, mahatama . . . (indistinct) . . . (One who chants all the time, he is a sannyāsī or mahātmā . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Aapne kal kaha thaa . . . (You had spoken yesterday) . . . Prabhupāda: Haan yahi, yeh toh baat hai. (Yes, that was what we spoke about.) Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He's demon. The demons also are sometimes are very powerful. They are very learned also sometimes. Just like Rāvaṇa was very learned, very powerful, but he was a demon. Kaṁsa was also very powerful, Hiraṇyakaśipu was so powerful that all the demigods would faint by seeing his angry eyes. Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja says like that, "My dear Lord, you are trying to give me material benefits, thank you very much. But I have seen my father was so materially powerful that simply by seeing his angry eyes the demigods would faint. But you have seen it, they want it. So what is the value of this, why you are offering this." So that . . . What is the value of this material benefit, it is known to the devotees. Therefore it is said that they are not interested. They are simply interested in serving the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is their only offer. They are no more interested in anything else. And that is mukti , when one is situated in that position that he has no more anything to do with anything else except Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . he is immediately liberated. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda which Canto is Ajāmila . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Which Canto in *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Arjuna? Devotee: Ajāmila . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? fifth canto? What is his question? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Speak one. Either you speak or they speak. Why you take two? What is the question? I cannot understand. What is that? Devotee: He wants to know what Canto, what Ajāmila story is from.? Prabhupāda: Oh, sixth Canto. That's all right. I could not follow the Ajāmila pronunciation. Therefore I was puzzled. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . now at college, there was one Mr. Carmichael. He was Scotsman. So all the Scotsman they used to say dyuty. Not duty. Buety, that is for beauty. Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So, one, one (laughs) of our class friends, his name was Pramuka Mukarjay I remember. He was very cunning. So he stood up, "Sir, is that Scot's pronunciation?" He became very much angry. Mr. Carmichael. (laughs) "Yes, that is English pronunciation." He said like. "That is correct English pronunciation." . . . (indistinct) Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this pronunciation, that trouble is our. There is a secular place I think they are different soldiers from different provinces. They were speaking and nobody could understand. There was a trouble. What is that book? King Lear or something. These difficulties are always there. Even in India the pronunciations are different . . . no one can tell you. (end) Conversation (Bengali and English) -- February 3, 1971, Gorakhpur (Conversation with Hanuman Prasad Poddar) *Prabhupāda: Ratha*-yātrā. Oikhankar jinish oikhanei. (Things of there, are there.) Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . bhagavaner nam kora, bhagavaner bhakti kora eisob jinish. (Things like chanting Lord's name, worshiping Lord, all these.) Prabhupāda: Eidekhun ei gr . . . e hochche grhastha, ei hocche sannyasi . . . (indistinct) . . . sabai mile korte hocche, gṛhastha ache! (Look this is gr . . . he is a gṛhastha , he is sannyasi . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is doing it together, he is a gṛhastha!) Hanuman: Nischoi, nischoi, ta boi ki. (Of course, of course, why not.) Prabhupāda: "One has to learn the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes spiritual master. It does not matter whether a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha ." Apni yeman gṛhastha . As you are grhastha . I've known gṛhastha he was 1000 times better than so many sannyāsīs (laughs), Mahaprabhur sob baro baro shishya chilo grhastha, Nityānanda prabhu—gṛhastha, Advaita prabhu— gṛhastha, uni nijeo grhastha chilen, grhastha holei ye ekbare patit hoye gelam erom to katha na. Eta Mahaprabhu bolechhen. (There were many sincere disciples of Mahaprabhu were gṛhastha . Nitynanda prabhu- gṛhastha , Advaita prabhu- gṛhastha , he himself was gṛhastha , gṛhastha means most fallen this is not fact. Mahaprabhu said this.) Hanuman: Nischoi, tate apot . . . (Of course, there is no objection . . .) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . okhane kore dekha yacche ye, ei Mahāprabhur ye movement, (after doing this in that place we can see the movement of Mahaprabhu. it is very important.) Systematically ekhane korleo, ekhane ye samasta, golmal hocche sob theme yabe. (If we do this here, then whatever clutter is going on here, all will be stopped.) Hanuman: Ekhane onek comitir lok, onek rakomer lok . . . (People of many communities, many types of people are here . . .) Prabhupāda: Tai hoyeche nischoi. (So it must have been. Yato mat tato path .) Hanuman: Ek . . . apni ekta bhab niye cholchen, sei bhabtai ye grahan korte pare se to bujhbe, ki kaj hocche. Ta na hole . . . (One . . . you are carrying an idea, one who can accept that idea he can understand, what is going on. Otherwise . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhutva bhava sa maṇḍita . Hanuman: Ta na hole onyera yara dekhbe, tara ni . . . nijer cokhe dekhbe to. (Otherwise other people who will see, they will see with their own eyes.) Prabhupāda: Hanuman: Yeman drsti temon drshya. Drsti, drsti nirman kare. Yekhane . . . (indistinct) . . . sekhane lav nei. (Such a vision is such as scene. Vision made a scene. Where . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no benefit.) Prabhupāda: Bharatvarse . In India. Hanuman: Na ei Gora . . . Gorakhpure. (No in this Gora . . . Gorakhpur.) *Prabhupāda: Gorakhpure . . . emni program to car*-pach din hoy. Tarpore bhagavaner jevabe . . . (In Gorakhpur usually the program runs for five to six day. And then as they do with the Deity . . .) Hanuman: Ami erokom mone kori . . . (indistinct) . . . eikhane uthben apni, amio . . . bole, lok pathiye deoa hobe, uni yeman bhak . . . bhaktader . . . bhakta manus. (I think like this . . . (indistinct) . . . you will come here, myself also . . . will tell, people will be sent, as he is a devotee . . . of a devotee . . . he is a devotee.) Prabhupāda: Beshidin yodi thakar kono program hoy, tahole apnar ekhane jayga ache. Apnar ekhane thakbar kato loker jayga hobe? (If there is a program to stay longer, so you have a place. How many people can stay in your place?) Hanuman: Kato lok thakte chan? (How many of you want to stay?) Prabhupāda: Sange ache, abasya pray ba . . . batrsh jon. (We have almost thir . . . thirty two persons.) *Hanuman: Thakte pare. Amader ekta alada ye ghar ache tarnam hocche Kṛṣṇa*-niketan. Ta apnara ki . . . (They can stay. We have another house, name of that is Kṛṣṇa-niketan. So will you all . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh! Taholeto amaderi ghar. Government service, yeman government servant yeman government ke guest house thakte den, temon. (Oh! (laughs) Then that is our house. (laughs) Government service, just like government servants give the government to stay in guest houses, like that. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa we have got claim.) (laughs) Hanuman: Ami tai to shunlam. Ke atkabe! (That's why I am asking. Who will stop.) Prabhupāda: īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: (ISO 1) Apnar kati nati? ekti? (How many grandsons do you have? One?) Hanuman: Duti. Ekta ei, ar ekti ei. (Two. One is here, another is here.) Prabhupāda: Ar ei chele ki natir chele naki! (And is this the son of your grandson.) Hanuman: Na, e amar natir chele noy . . . hoche paribareri . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, he is not the son of my grandson . . . he is one of the family members . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Hanuman: Meye eseche. Daughter came.) Prabhupāda: Accha . Accha . Hanuman: Amader gharer meye. Oi . . . Gita, yake apni dekhechen to. Our own daughter. (She is . . . *Gītā* , you have seen her.) Prabhupāda: Accha! Accha! Hanuman: Paresher wife! se eseche . . . (indistinct) . . . (Wife of Paresh. She has come . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Uni apnar Natni? (Is she your granddaughter?) *Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . tar shashuri, oi Paresher maa se car tarikh sekhan theke amar ekhane achen. (Her mother*-in-law, Paresh's mother came here from there on the 4th of date.) Prabhupāda: Ekhane esechen? (Came here?) Hanuman: Ora ekhane thake. Ajit to ekhane thake. (They live here. Ajita also lives here.) Prabhupāda: Kailasher to duti maa ache. (Kailash has two mothers.) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Uni besh bhalo, amader khub yatna karechen. Kichudin aro sob thakun, apnara thaklei loker upokar. (She is very good, she cares for us very much. You please live for more years, as long as you live people will be benefited.) Hanuman: Yeman tar icche. (As the Lord wants.) *Prabhupāda: Parikshit Maharajer bisaye jijnasa korechilo ye, tini to yatodin thakten loker upakarer jonye. Tini erom bhabe asamaye sarir tyag korlen keno? Eita prosno hoyeche. Yader thakle jagater upakar hobe, tara erom bhabe voluntarily sarir charben keno? Erom bhabe ekta question hoyeche. (Once it was asked about Parikshit Maharaj, that is, as long as he lived for the benefit of the people. Then why did he untimely leave his body? This question was asked. The world will be benefited by the presence of those, why do they leave their body voluntarily? A question was asked like this.) Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau. Gosvamira . . . gosvamider bishaye ache. (The goswamis . . . these are about goswamis:) *Prabhupāda: Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau, sadhu, vaisnava tader jibantai hocche paropakarer janya. ( sadhu , Vaisnava—their life is only for helping other.) patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ Hanuman: Eta shikhiyechen Mahaprabhu, "ami loko upakar kori" Mahaprabhur shishyara e mane na, arthat "trnadapi sunicena", amra ki korbo! sob tini e koracchen sob. (This is what Mahāprabhu taught, the disciples of Mahāprabhu don't think that is "I help other people", so "trnadapi sunicena," what we do? Actually he (God) is doing everything.) Prabhupāda: Tato achei. Ekhon katha . . . ekta katha hocche ye Bhagavan bolchen, (That's it. Now the thing is . . . one thing Bhagavan said is,) *Prabhupāda: Pāpa*-yonih yara tara amake ashraya korle tarao pora gati labh korbe: (Those who are pāpa-yonih , if they take shelter unto me, they will be also delivered:) *Ei jagate ye papa*-yonih ache taderke uddhar korar darkar ki na? (The papa-yonih of this world, they also need salvation, or not?) Hanuman: Darkar boi ki? darkar to ache. (Why don't they need? Must need.) Prabhupāda: Sei janya Mahaprabhu bolechilen ye: (That's why Mahāprabhu said this:) *Papa*-yonih ke papa-yonih rekhe dile cholbe na. Bharatvarser eiye yuddha holo, Pakistan holo, papa-yonih ke papa-yonih rekhe deoa holo. Tader ke uddhar kara holo na. (We should not left papa-yonih as papa-yonih . There was a war in India, and Pakistan developed, this way papa-yonih was left as papa-yonih . They were not delivered.) Hanuman: Seto bere yacche. (They are increasing.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Hanuman: Seto bere yacche. (They are increasing.) Prabhupāda: Sutarang ei process ta hochche, Mahaprabhur process ta, ye, pacjonke uddhar kara eta Bharatbasir kartabya. (So the process is, the process of Mahāprabhu, that is, giving salvation to five people; this is the duty of every Indian. is the duty of every Indian.) Hanuman: Ta nije . . . mane bhakter nijer kono kaj nei. Ei tar kaj. (Himself . . . means, the devotee doesn't have any work for himself.) Prabhupāda: Bhagavaner seva, ar bhagavan . . . (Serving the Lord, and the Lord . . .) Hanuman: Ei ye bhavaner seva! (This is service to the Lord.) Prabhupāda: Eta Bhagavaner seva. Bhagavan bolchen, (Yes this is service of the Lord. The Lord said:) Ar amra bolchi, sob chere Kṛṣṇa bhakta hao. (And we are also saying, leave all your materialistic activities and become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.) Hanuman: Oito bhagavan ya bolchen to! (This is what the Lord is saying, right.) Prabhupāda: Na, bhagavan ya bolche seita amra bolchi. Sutarang amra bhagavaner representative. Amra canvas korchi. (No, we are saying the same as the Lord is saying. So we are the representatives of the Lord. (laughs) We are canvassing. Boliye Gosvai. What you are saying about it, Gosvai. We are canvassing.) Jo bhagavan Kṛṣṇa hey, (The Lord, Kṛṣṇa,) kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28) Uske caran mey prabritti karo. (Simple thing, just be engaged in the service of his feet. Simple thing.) Hanuman: Yeh sabse badi lok seva hey. Sabse badi lok seva. Kisiko Sri Kṛṣṇa ke taraf mila dena, yeh sabse bada . . . (This is the greatest service to humanity. Greatest public service. Bring someone to Sri Kṛṣṇa, this is the greatest . . .) Prabhupāda: I am very well pleased that you are . . . certified that this is the greatest service to the humanity. Hanuman: Greatest service, greatest service. no doubt, greatest service. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Ta ete . . . ei service er jonye, samasta bairer lok ei jinishta nebar khub prostut. Tara to . . . (indistinct) . . . (So this . . . for this service, all foreigners are ready to take this service. For this materialistic way of life . . . (indistinct) . . .) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra). Ta ekhane sob procharak tairi korbo, kore sara duniya . . . eta holo Bharatvarser dan, r ekhon Bharatvarsa bhikiri, kebol bhikye korte jay. (So I will prepare many preacher here, and send them to all over the world . . . this will be the best gift from India, and nowadays India is beggar, only go for begging.) Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . ta na hole. (otherwise.) Prabhupāda: Abasya amar maton, ami kichu janina, tobe erom ekta chesta korchi. Ta apnara sakole mile sahayog korun, tahole eikhankar sob lok tairi kore er potency ta onek hoto. Cari dhare lok pathabo. (Actually like me, I don't know anything, but still I am trying. So all of you please help me, then we can prepare many preachers here and the potency of movement would be more.) Hanuman: Chilo to, eto deshe thaka khaoadaoar jonya. Ei desheri lok sob jaygay giye . . . (They were there, for the problem of living and eating. People of this country went to every place . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, tabe thik jinishta niye yete hobe. Baje mal niye gele kintu kaj hobe na. Asol sona niye yete hobe, tahole sob jaygay demand ache. R nakol niye gele tar kichu kaj hobe na. Eta hocche asol sona. (No, but we have to take the right thing. If we take bad things then it won't work. We have to take real gold, it has the demand in every place. If we take a fake, it won't work. This is the real gold.) *Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65) *Ei sloker artha Dr. Radhakrsna bolche ye, na Kṛṣṇar ye bhetare ache sei jinish ta bolche. Bhagavan bolchen 'man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto' Radhakrsna ulte palte aro kichu bolchen. Kṛṣṇa r Kṛṣṇar bhitare ki tafat ache? Kṛṣṇa abar Kṛṣṇar bhetare alada, tafat ache kise? (Dr. Radhakrsna is describing meaning of this sloka is, no it is saying by the person who is in the Kṛṣṇa. Lord is saying man-manā bhava mad-bhakto and Radhakrsna changing it and saying another thing. Is there any difference between Kṛṣṇa and inner of the Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and inner of the Kṛṣṇa?) Hanuman: Yara maya bisista isvar mane, tara ei bolche. (They are telling this, who are the believers of maya in īśvara .) Prabhupāda: Isvar maya bisista hobe ki kore? Setai to katha. (How īśvara can be in maya ? This is the thing.) Hanuman: Tara bolche . . . tara bolche ye . . . (indistinct) . . . ei isvarer sange asol isvarer samanddhya ki? Sudhu bhetare ache. Se ja ache, se ache. (They are telling . . . they are telling that . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the relationship between this īśvara and real īśvara ? They are only in our body. Whoever is, he is.) Prabhupāda: To sei sidhanta ora grhan korena. Mahaprabhur kathata ache. (They don't accept that philosophy. There are the words of Mahāprabhu.) Hanuman: Sei Gitar katha mane . . . sei . . . gitay ye ki kore ye bhagavan janen amra janina, tobe yatatuku bujhte pari. *Gītā* bolchhe, eto sadhan kore kore brahma praptir yajnata labh korbe. (The knowledge of *Gītā* . . . that . . . in the *Gītā* how the Lord knows that we don't know, but as far I can understand. The *Gītā* is saying that, we have to do that much sadhana as we can be qualified to reach brahma ( jnana ).) *brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26) *Tarpar brahma*-bhuta hobe. (Then they will be brahma-bhuta .) *mad*-bhaktiṁ, mad . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Hanuman: Amar bhakti labh korbe. (You will get devotional service of mine.) *Prabhupāda: Ta brahma*-bhuta hobar por. (That is after brahma-bhuta .) Hanuman: Por, por. Samay ache er porer bar . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpore. (Yes after that, after that. We have enough time after this . . . (indistinct) . . . then.) Prabhupāda: Ta kintu er modhye ekta katha holo . . . (But there is a thing into this is . . .) Hanuman: Lila te prabesh korbe. (Will enter the lila .) Mane . . . mane yatodur ei samudra ke na janbe, tatodur se samudrake purnu janena. (That means . . . that means as far he won't know this ocean, he doesn't know that far about this ocean.) Prabhupāda: Na, tatodur jnan purno noy. (No, his knowledge is not full filled yet.) Hanuman: Jnan purno noy. (Knowledge is not fully filled.) *Prabhupāda: Sei jonye, bahunam*-sambhaba,) (That's why, bahunam-sambhaba ,) Hanuman: Māṁ prapadyate . *Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ, bhagavan ke janar probitti holo sei asol jnan. (The will of knowing the Lord is real knowledge.) Hanuman: Māṁ vetti, māṁ vetti . . . Siddhānām siddhānāṁ Prabhupāda: Ah. Hanuman: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ, siddhānām jñānināṁ. Ye param jnan . . . (The topmost knowledge.) Prabhupāda: Siddhānām muktinaṁ . Hanuman: Muktinaṁ. Ye jnan labh kore mukta hoyeche, tader modhyeo keu keu amake jane. (Who has been liberated by gaining knowledge, among of them some of them know me.) Prabhupāda: Eitai Chaitanya Mahaprabhur katha ye, koti jnani modhye ek matra srestha. (This is what Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, among the crore of wise persons, one is great.) *Hanuman: Oi ya byakti sei ekhane ache iyete, (About that person we can find in, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti, abhijānāti .) Eta oi slok ache. Umm . . . iyete, gopika sandarbe, (This is the verse from . . . umm . . . that is, Gopika*-sandarb ,) Hanuman: Onya keu tattva ta janena. (Know one knows this tattva .) Prabhupāda: Janei na. Thik. Sei jonye gopider ye bhajan, seita Mahaprabhu sabcheye baro bhajan boleche. Ye rambhar kashir upasana braja gopi yadyapi ya . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes they don't know. Right. That's why Mahāprabhu said the bhajan of gopis are the top most bhajan . . .) Usse badkar or upasana hey! (Is there any worshiping better than this.) Hanuman: Narad . . . narada sutre narad muni likhche . . . (indistinct) . . . sutre. (Narada . . . Narada wrote in his sutra . . . (indistinct) . . . in his sutra .) Prabhupāda: Ta, eisob bideshira sob grahan korche, ekhon amader edik theke yodi ederke besh, organize bhabe deoa hoy tahole Bharater mangal hobe. Eta apnara sakale mile sahaya korun. Ar to amader oderkichu deoar nei. Amra yodi . . . yodi oder material science dite chai se sambhab noy, sambhab noy. Karan ora eto advance, ye amra 100 years back. O diye kichu hobe na. Ei ye jinista amader nijer sampatti, seta deoa yay. (So, all the foreigners are accepting, now if we give them this organizationally then India will be blessed. All of you help me in this. We have nothing to give them. If we . . . if we want to give them material science then it is not possible, not possible. Because they are so advanced, that we are 100 years back. Nothing will happen with that. This is our own property, so it can be given.) Hanuman: Setai ora chay. (They want it.) Prabhupāda: Setai ora caiche. Ora accept korechilo Bharatvarser ei jinish take. Se jonye to agraha korlo. Ar shudhu oder jonye noy, eta Bharatbashiro ote bisvasta hoya darkar. kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Apnar ya . . . (indistinct) . . . (They want it. They accepted this thing of India. That's why they are interested. And this not only for them. All of you . . .(indistinct) . . .) Hanuman: Amar kache onek taka ache. Amar to boi korar . . . (I have enough money. I want to make a film . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha, oi dukhana thak. (Okay, keep these two.) Hanuman: Amar ekta boi ta hocche hindi te, tate apnar onek kichu. Kirtan . . . My film is in Hindi, so there are many things about you, kirtan . . .) Prabhupāda: Ki boi korchen? What movie are you making?) *Hanuman: Ei Kṛṣṇa*-bhabanamritar parichay. This is the identity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.) Prabhupāda: Oi amader bisaye! (Oh, on us.) Hanuman: Tabe ar ki! (laughs) (Why not?) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Nectar of Devotion*. Ei amader sob boier ekta photograph diyeche. (This is the photograph of all our books have been given.) Hanuman: Ete ache? (Into this?) Prabhupāda: Eita. Record ache, boi ache. Amader record khub bikr hoy. Apnake record pathiye diyechilo na? (This, we have records, we have books. Our records are sold too. They send records to you, no?) You have brought some record here? Yaśodānandana: It's in my other case, two records I have got. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yaśodānandana: Two copies of Govinda . Prabhupāda: Reading them and keep them in the library. Ar Kṛṣṇa boi amader . . . apni amar chobi dekhe khub sukhi hoben, chobi dekhei bikr hoyeche. (And our Kṛṣṇa book . . . you will be pleased to see my picture, those are sold because of the picture.) *In Ratha*-yātrā Festival in one hour we sold about 24 copies. Although it is very highly priced, eight dollars. Mane America te kichu noy eight dollars cheaper, amader deshe eight dollars onek beshi. Tahole ajke anumati den. Ashi apnio bisram korun. (Means, in America, eight dollars is nothing, it is cheaper, In our country eight dollars is much more. So give me permission. I am leaving you take rest.) Yaśodānandana: I gave him one already. Prabhupāda: Gita ele pathiye debo. I will send a *Gītā* when I get one.) (sanskrit) Kṛṣṇake janle ar kichu janbar baki thakbe na, sob hoye jabe. Sampurna Jnan. Accha! (After knowing Kṛṣṇa there is nothing left to know, everything will be done. Complete knowledge.) (end) Conversation (Bengali and English) -- February 3, 1971, Gorakhpur (Conversation with Hanuman Prasad Poddar) *Prabhupāda: Ratha*-yātrā. Oikhankar jinish oikhanei. (Things of there, are there.) Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . bhagavaner nam kora, bhagavaner bhakti kora eisob jinish. (Things like chanting Lord's name, worshiping Lord, all these.) Prabhupāda: Eidekhun ei gr . . . e hochche grhastha, ei hocche sannyasi . . . (indistinct) . . . sabai mile korte hocche, gṛhastha ache! (Look this is gr . . . he is a gṛhastha , he is sannyasi . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is doing it together, he is a gṛhastha!) Hanuman: Nischoi, nischoi, ta boi ki. (Of course, of course, why not.) Prabhupāda: "One has to learn the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes spiritual master. It does not matter whether a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha ." Apni yeman gṛhastha . As you are grhastha . I've known gṛhastha he was 1000 times better than so many sannyāsīs (laughs), Mahaprabhur sob baro baro shishya chilo grhastha, Nityānanda prabhu—gṛhastha, Advaita prabhu— gṛhastha, uni nijeo grhastha chilen, grhastha holei ye ekbare patit hoye gelam erom to katha na. Eta Mahaprabhu bolechhen. (There were many sincere disciples of Mahaprabhu were gṛhastha . Nitynanda prabhu- gṛhastha , Advaita prabhu- gṛhastha , he himself was gṛhastha , gṛhastha means most fallen this is not fact. Mahaprabhu said this.) Hanuman: Nischoi, tate apot . . . (Of course, there is no objection . . .) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . okhane kore dekha yacche ye, ei Mahāprabhur ye movement, (after doing this in that place we can see the movement of Mahaprabhu. it is very important.) Systematically ekhane korleo, ekhane ye samasta, golmal hocche sob theme yabe. (If we do this here, then whatever clutter is going on here, all will be stopped.) Hanuman: Ekhane onek comitir lok, onek rakomer lok . . . (People of many communities, many types of people are here . . .) Prabhupāda: Tai hoyeche nischoi. (So it must have been. Yato mat tato path .) Hanuman: Ek . . . apni ekta bhab niye cholchen, sei bhabtai ye grahan korte pare se to bujhbe, ki kaj hocche. Ta na hole . . . (One . . . you are carrying an idea, one who can accept that idea he can understand, what is going on. Otherwise . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhutva bhava sa maṇḍita . Hanuman: Ta na hole onyera yara dekhbe, tara ni . . . nijer cokhe dekhbe to. (Otherwise other people who will see, they will see with their own eyes.) Prabhupāda: Hanuman: Yeman drsti temon drshya. Drsti, drsti nirman kare. Yekhane . . . (indistinct) . . . sekhane lav nei. (Such a vision is such as scene. Vision made a scene. Where . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no benefit.) Prabhupāda: Bharatvarse . In India. Hanuman: Na ei Gora . . . Gorakhpure. (No in this Gora . . . Gorakhpur.) *Prabhupāda: Gorakhpure . . . emni program to car*-pach din hoy. Tarpore bhagavaner jevabe . . . (In Gorakhpur usually the program runs for five to six day. And then as they do with the Deity . . .) Hanuman: Ami erokom mone kori . . . (indistinct) . . . eikhane uthben apni, amio . . . bole, lok pathiye deoa hobe, uni yeman bhak . . . bhaktader . . . bhakta manus. (I think like this . . . (indistinct) . . . you will come here, myself also . . . will tell, people will be sent, as he is a devotee . . . of a devotee . . . he is a devotee.) Prabhupāda: Beshidin yodi thakar kono program hoy, tahole apnar ekhane jayga ache. Apnar ekhane thakbar kato loker jayga hobe? (If there is a program to stay longer, so you have a place. How many people can stay in your place?) Hanuman: Kato lok thakte chan? (How many of you want to stay?) Prabhupāda: Sange ache, abasya pray ba . . . batrsh jon. (We have almost thir . . . thirty two persons.) *Hanuman: Thakte pare. Amader ekta alada ye ghar ache tarnam hocche Kṛṣṇa*-niketan. Ta apnara ki . . . (They can stay. We have another house, name of that is Kṛṣṇa-niketan. So will you all . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh! Taholeto amaderi ghar. Government service, yeman government servant yeman government ke guest house thakte den, temon. (Oh! (laughs) Then that is our house. (laughs) Government service, just like government servants give the government to stay in guest houses, like that. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa we have got claim.) (laughs) Hanuman: Ami tai to shunlam. Ke atkabe! (That's why I am asking. Who will stop.) Prabhupāda: īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: (ISO 1) Apnar kati nati? ekti? (How many grandsons do you have? One?) Hanuman: Duti. Ekta ei, ar ekti ei. (Two. One is here, another is here.) Prabhupāda: Ar ei chele ki natir chele naki! (And is this the son of your grandson.) Hanuman: Na, e amar natir chele noy . . . hoche paribareri . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, he is not the son of my grandson . . . he is one of the family members . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Hanuman: Meye eseche. Daughter came.) Prabhupāda: Accha . Accha . Hanuman: Amader gharer meye. Oi . . . Gita, yake apni dekhechen to. Our own daughter. (She is . . . *Gītā* , you have seen her.) Prabhupāda: Accha! Accha! Hanuman: Paresher wife! se eseche . . . (indistinct) . . . (Wife of Paresh. She has come . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Uni apnar Natni? (Is she your granddaughter?) *Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . tar shashuri, oi Paresher maa se car tarikh sekhan theke amar ekhane achen. (Her mother*-in-law, Paresh's mother came here from there on the 4th of date.) Prabhupāda: Ekhane esechen? (Came here?) Hanuman: Ora ekhane thake. Ajit to ekhane thake. (They live here. Ajita also lives here.) Prabhupāda: Kailasher to duti maa ache. (Kailash has two mothers.) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Uni besh bhalo, amader khub yatna karechen. Kichudin aro sob thakun, apnara thaklei loker upokar. (She is very good, she cares for us very much. You please live for more years, as long as you live people will be benefited.) Hanuman: Yeman tar icche. (As the Lord wants.) *Prabhupāda: Parikshit Maharajer bisaye jijnasa korechilo ye, tini to yatodin thakten loker upakarer jonye. Tini erom bhabe asamaye sarir tyag korlen keno? Eita prosno hoyeche. Yader thakle jagater upakar hobe, tara erom bhabe voluntarily sarir charben keno? Erom bhabe ekta question hoyeche. (Once it was asked about Parikshit Maharaj, that is, as long as he lived for the benefit of the people. Then why did he untimely leave his body? This question was asked. The world will be benefited by the presence of those, why do they leave their body voluntarily? A question was asked like this.) Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau. Gosvamira . . . gosvamider bishaye ache. (The goswamis . . . these are about goswamis:) *Prabhupāda: Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau, sadhu, vaisnava tader jibantai hocche paropakarer janya. ( sadhu , Vaisnava—their life is only for helping other.) patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ Hanuman: Eta shikhiyechen Mahaprabhu, "ami loko upakar kori" Mahaprabhur shishyara e mane na, arthat "trnadapi sunicena", amra ki korbo! sob tini e koracchen sob. (This is what Mahāprabhu taught, the disciples of Mahāprabhu don't think that is "I help other people", so "trnadapi sunicena," what we do? Actually he (God) is doing everything.) Prabhupāda: Tato achei. Ekhon katha . . . ekta katha hocche ye Bhagavan bolchen, (That's it. Now the thing is . . . one thing Bhagavan said is,) *Prabhupāda: Pāpa*-yonih yara tara amake ashraya korle tarao pora gati labh korbe: (Those who are pāpa-yonih , if they take shelter unto me, they will be also delivered:) *Ei jagate ye papa*-yonih ache taderke uddhar korar darkar ki na? (The papa-yonih of this world, they also need salvation, or not?) Hanuman: Darkar boi ki? darkar to ache. (Why don't they need? Must need.) Prabhupāda: Sei janya Mahaprabhu bolechilen ye: (That's why Mahāprabhu said this:) *Papa*-yonih ke papa-yonih rekhe dile cholbe na. Bharatvarser eiye yuddha holo, Pakistan holo, papa-yonih ke papa-yonih rekhe deoa holo. Tader ke uddhar kara holo na. (We should not left papa-yonih as papa-yonih . There was a war in India, and Pakistan developed, this way papa-yonih was left as papa-yonih . They were not delivered.) Hanuman: Seto bere yacche. (They are increasing.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Hanuman: Seto bere yacche. (They are increasing.) Prabhupāda: Sutarang ei process ta hochche, Mahaprabhur process ta, ye, pacjonke uddhar kara eta Bharatbasir kartabya. (So the process is, the process of Mahāprabhu, that is, giving salvation to five people; this is the duty of every Indian. is the duty of every Indian.) Hanuman: Ta nije . . . mane bhakter nijer kono kaj nei. Ei tar kaj. (Himself . . . means, the devotee doesn't have any work for himself.) Prabhupāda: Bhagavaner seva, ar bhagavan . . . (Serving the Lord, and the Lord . . .) Hanuman: Ei ye bhavaner seva! (This is service to the Lord.) Prabhupāda: Eta Bhagavaner seva. Bhagavan bolchen, (Yes this is service of the Lord. The Lord said:) Ar amra bolchi, sob chere Kṛṣṇa bhakta hao. (And we are also saying, leave all your materialistic activities and become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.) Hanuman: Oito bhagavan ya bolchen to! (This is what the Lord is saying, right.) Prabhupāda: Na, bhagavan ya bolche seita amra bolchi. Sutarang amra bhagavaner representative. Amra canvas korchi. (No, we are saying the same as the Lord is saying. So we are the representatives of the Lord. (laughs) We are canvassing. Boliye Gosvai. What you are saying about it, Gosvai. We are canvassing.) Jo bhagavan Kṛṣṇa hey, (The Lord, Kṛṣṇa,) kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28) Uske caran mey prabritti karo. (Simple thing, just be engaged in the service of his feet. Simple thing.) Hanuman: Yeh sabse badi lok seva hey. Sabse badi lok seva. Kisiko Sri Kṛṣṇa ke taraf mila dena, yeh sabse bada . . . (This is the greatest service to humanity. Greatest public service. Bring someone to Sri Kṛṣṇa, this is the greatest . . .) Prabhupāda: I am very well pleased that you are . . . certified that this is the greatest service to the humanity. Hanuman: Greatest service, greatest service. no doubt, greatest service. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Ta ete . . . ei service er jonye, samasta bairer lok ei jinishta nebar khub prostut. Tara to . . . (indistinct) . . . (So this . . . for this service, all foreigners are ready to take this service. For this materialistic way of life . . . (indistinct) . . .) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra). Ta ekhane sob procharak tairi korbo, kore sara duniya . . . eta holo Bharatvarser dan, r ekhon Bharatvarsa bhikiri, kebol bhikye korte jay. (So I will prepare many preacher here, and send them to all over the world . . . this will be the best gift from India, and nowadays India is beggar, only go for begging.) Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . ta na hole. (otherwise.) Prabhupāda: Abasya amar maton, ami kichu janina, tobe erom ekta chesta korchi. Ta apnara sakole mile sahayog korun, tahole eikhankar sob lok tairi kore er potency ta onek hoto. Cari dhare lok pathabo. (Actually like me, I don't know anything, but still I am trying. So all of you please help me, then we can prepare many preachers here and the potency of movement would be more.) Hanuman: Chilo to, eto deshe thaka khaoadaoar jonya. Ei desheri lok sob jaygay giye . . . (They were there, for the problem of living and eating. People of this country went to every place . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, tabe thik jinishta niye yete hobe. Baje mal niye gele kintu kaj hobe na. Asol sona niye yete hobe, tahole sob jaygay demand ache. R nakol niye gele tar kichu kaj hobe na. Eta hocche asol sona. (No, but we have to take the right thing. If we take bad things then it won't work. We have to take real gold, it has the demand in every place. If we take a fake, it won't work. This is the real gold.) *Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65) *Ei sloker artha Dr. Radhakrsna bolche ye, na Kṛṣṇar ye bhetare ache sei jinish ta bolche. Bhagavan bolchen 'man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto' Radhakrsna ulte palte aro kichu bolchen. Kṛṣṇa r Kṛṣṇar bhitare ki tafat ache? Kṛṣṇa abar Kṛṣṇar bhetare alada, tafat ache kise? (Dr. Radhakrsna is describing meaning of this sloka is, no it is saying by the person who is in the Kṛṣṇa. Lord is saying man-manā bhava mad-bhakto and Radhakrsna changing it and saying another thing. Is there any difference between Kṛṣṇa and inner of the Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and inner of the Kṛṣṇa?) Hanuman: Yara maya bisista isvar mane, tara ei bolche. (They are telling this, who are the believers of maya in īśvara .) Prabhupāda: Isvar maya bisista hobe ki kore? Setai to katha. (How īśvara can be in maya ? This is the thing.) Hanuman: Tara bolche . . . tara bolche ye . . . (indistinct) . . . ei isvarer sange asol isvarer samanddhya ki? Sudhu bhetare ache. Se ja ache, se ache. (They are telling . . . they are telling that . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the relationship between this īśvara and real īśvara ? They are only in our body. Whoever is, he is.) Prabhupāda: To sei sidhanta ora grhan korena. Mahaprabhur kathata ache. (They don't accept that philosophy. There are the words of Mahāprabhu.) Hanuman: Sei Gitar katha mane . . . sei . . . gitay ye ki kore ye bhagavan janen amra janina, tobe yatatuku bujhte pari. *Gītā* bolchhe, eto sadhan kore kore brahma praptir yajnata labh korbe. (The knowledge of *Gītā* . . . that . . . in the *Gītā* how the Lord knows that we don't know, but as far I can understand. The *Gītā* is saying that, we have to do that much sadhana as we can be qualified to reach brahma ( jnana ).) *brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26) *Tarpar brahma*-bhuta hobe. (Then they will be brahma-bhuta .) *mad*-bhaktiṁ, mad . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Hanuman: Amar bhakti labh korbe. (You will get devotional service of mine.) *Prabhupāda: Ta brahma*-bhuta hobar por. (That is after brahma-bhuta .) Hanuman: Por, por. Samay ache er porer bar . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpore. (Yes after that, after that. We have enough time after this . . . (indistinct) . . . then.) Prabhupāda: Ta kintu er modhye ekta katha holo . . . (But there is a thing into this is . . .) Hanuman: Lila te prabesh korbe. (Will enter the lila .) Mane . . . mane yatodur ei samudra ke na janbe, tatodur se samudrake purnu janena. (That means . . . that means as far he won't know this ocean, he doesn't know that far about this ocean.) Prabhupāda: Na, tatodur jnan purno noy. (No, his knowledge is not full filled yet.) Hanuman: Jnan purno noy. (Knowledge is not fully filled.) *Prabhupāda: Sei jonye, bahunam*-sambhaba,) (That's why, bahunam-sambhaba ,) Hanuman: Māṁ prapadyate . *Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ, bhagavan ke janar probitti holo sei asol jnan. (The will of knowing the Lord is real knowledge.) Hanuman: Māṁ vetti, māṁ vetti . . . Siddhānām siddhānāṁ Prabhupāda: Ah. Hanuman: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ, siddhānām jñānināṁ. Ye param jnan . . . (The topmost knowledge.) Prabhupāda: Siddhānām muktinaṁ . Hanuman: Muktinaṁ. Ye jnan labh kore mukta hoyeche, tader modhyeo keu keu amake jane. (Who has been liberated by gaining knowledge, among of them some of them know me.) Prabhupāda: Eitai Chaitanya Mahaprabhur katha ye, koti jnani modhye ek matra srestha. (This is what Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, among the crore of wise persons, one is great.) *Hanuman: Oi ya byakti sei ekhane ache iyete, (About that person we can find in, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti, abhijānāti .) Eta oi slok ache. Umm . . . iyete, gopika sandarbe, (This is the verse from . . . umm . . . that is, Gopika*-sandarb ,) Hanuman: Onya keu tattva ta janena. (Know one knows this tattva .) Prabhupāda: Janei na. Thik. Sei jonye gopider ye bhajan, seita Mahaprabhu sabcheye baro bhajan boleche. Ye rambhar kashir upasana braja gopi yadyapi ya . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes they don't know. Right. That's why Mahāprabhu said the bhajan of gopis are the top most bhajan . . .) Usse badkar or upasana hey! (Is there any worshiping better than this.) Hanuman: Narad . . . narada sutre narad muni likhche . . . (indistinct) . . . sutre. (Narada . . . Narada wrote in his sutra . . . (indistinct) . . . in his sutra .) Prabhupāda: Ta, eisob bideshira sob grahan korche, ekhon amader edik theke yodi ederke besh, organize bhabe deoa hoy tahole Bharater mangal hobe. Eta apnara sakale mile sahaya korun. Ar to amader oderkichu deoar nei. Amra yodi . . . yodi oder material science dite chai se sambhab noy, sambhab noy. Karan ora eto advance, ye amra 100 years back. O diye kichu hobe na. Ei ye jinista amader nijer sampatti, seta deoa yay. (So, all the foreigners are accepting, now if we give them this organizationally then India will be blessed. All of you help me in this. We have nothing to give them. If we . . . if we want to give them material science then it is not possible, not possible. Because they are so advanced, that we are 100 years back. Nothing will happen with that. This is our own property, so it can be given.) Hanuman: Setai ora chay. (They want it.) Prabhupāda: Setai ora caiche. Ora accept korechilo Bharatvarser ei jinish take. Se jonye to agraha korlo. Ar shudhu oder jonye noy, eta Bharatbashiro ote bisvasta hoya darkar. kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Apnar ya . . . (indistinct) . . . (They want it. They accepted this thing of India. That's why they are interested. And this not only for them. All of you . . .(indistinct) . . .) Hanuman: Amar kache onek taka ache. Amar to boi korar . . . (I have enough money. I want to make a film . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha, oi dukhana thak. (Okay, keep these two.) Hanuman: Amar ekta boi ta hocche hindi te, tate apnar onek kichu. Kirtan . . . My film is in Hindi, so there are many things about you, kirtan . . .) Prabhupāda: Ki boi korchen? What movie are you making?) *Hanuman: Ei Kṛṣṇa*-bhabanamritar parichay. This is the identity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.) Prabhupāda: Oi amader bisaye! (Oh, on us.) Hanuman: Tabe ar ki! (laughs) (Why not?) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Nectar of Devotion*. Ei amader sob boier ekta photograph diyeche. (This is the photograph of all our books have been given.) Hanuman: Ete ache? (Into this?) Prabhupāda: Eita. Record ache, boi ache. Amader record khub bikr hoy. Apnake record pathiye diyechilo na? (This, we have records, we have books. Our records are sold too. They send records to you, no?) You have brought some record here? Yaśodānandana: It's in my other case, two records I have got. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yaśodānandana: Two copies of Govinda . Prabhupāda: Reading them and keep them in the library. Ar Kṛṣṇa boi amader . . . apni amar chobi dekhe khub sukhi hoben, chobi dekhei bikr hoyeche. (And our Kṛṣṇa book . . . you will be pleased to see my picture, those are sold because of the picture.) *In Ratha*-yātrā Festival in one hour we sold about 24 copies. Although it is very highly priced, eight dollars. Mane America te kichu noy eight dollars cheaper, amader deshe eight dollars onek beshi. Tahole ajke anumati den. Ashi apnio bisram korun. (Means, in America, eight dollars is nothing, it is cheaper, In our country eight dollars is much more. So give me permission. I am leaving you take rest.) Yaśodānandana: I gave him one already. Prabhupāda: Gita ele pathiye debo. I will send a *Gītā* when I get one.) (sanskrit) Kṛṣṇake janle ar kichu janbar baki thakbe na, sob hoye jabe. Sampurna Jnan. Accha! (After knowing Kṛṣṇa there is nothing left to know, everything will be done. Complete knowledge.) (end) Conversation -- March 16, 1971, Bombay Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . let's say our needs. But we know people who will buy it somewhere else. But . . . (indistinct) . . . will change. Perhaps we should have our own place of worship. Prabhupāda: Indians . . . (indistinct) . . . students are from all over the world, through birth. We should, when we see that . . . (indistinct) . . . also try for . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not like your country, that velvet road and everywhere there is motel, there is supply of gas and this, that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we'll come with you immediately. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we'll all come with you now. The only reason we want to remain in Bombay was to purchase vans, trucks. Now I fear, Prabhupāda, is that . . . that we know that Your Divine Grace . . . Prabhupāda: But what . . . where you shall remain? This place is not for . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we won't remain. *Prabhupāda: That man, Jamun, that building, that Sītā*-Rāma . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: . . . they are welcoming us. They are . . . (indistinct) . . . to help when the building is . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are also prepared to give you transport facilities. But it is very away from Bombay. Śyāmasundara: The only reason we were thinking to remain in Bombay for a short time is to get equipment and printing leaflets to pass out in Indian languages along the way while we will travel. Prabhupāda: If you get equipment for traveling, you still you do not know Indian language. How you will preach in the villages? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's right. I think Prabhupāda's right. There's no preaching in . . . Prabhupāda: Villages, you have no scope for preaching . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, only the major cities. Prabhupāda: Major cities, and amongst the enlightened class. Just like last evening we had, they are all enlightened. So unless we get such support, from the mass of people you cannot. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Say if we try to establish temples wherever you go now . . . Prabhupāda: No. Apart from establishing temple, you don’t establish. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just, the saṅkīrtana party will be depleted if every time we go and leave the city we try and leave some men there to open a temple. There won’t be any men left. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This should be a tour of the world, I think, trying to give the whole world an idea of Krsna consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. We were thinking that everywhere we go we could take down names and addresses in great detail, as well as make members throughout the world, and then to retrace our steps later on and open temples. For instance, to come back to Bombay . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, in Bombay we are finding difficulty, forth*-class at the present moment. This is temporary. And that place is not good. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I think it was, that Madanan's place, it is not Madanan's place. It has been wrong place shown. Madanan is very rich man. I think that proprietor . . . you showed me one house? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That place is right place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are shown a wrong place. Devotee: Oh. And there's no one in there. He said there was no one home . . . Prabhupāda: You went to . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . bring the . . . Śyāmasundara: There was no one there . . . Prabhupāda: That place is the right place. Śyāmasundara: There were locks on all the doors. Big locks on every door. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why did they do that? Prabhupāda: That is another cheating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's a cheating. Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not know what is the policy of this . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lalji. Prabhupāda: Lalji. Devotee: Tomorrow that gentleman . . . Prabhupāda: Why don’t you call him? He cannot be seen. He cannot . . . he did not come. Call . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Call and let him come. Who is it? Who is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's this man from Agarwal. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants the list of men who will come. Prabhupāda: Yes, so . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We’re not prepared, though, to do it, unless . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . aur thoda wait karo (. . . wait a little more.) Gurudas: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Hindi me likh de do. Accha. Hindi me . . . (Write it down in Hindi and give to me. Okay in Hindi . . .) that Sītā*-Rāma temple, they are very much anxious to receive us. Gurudas: How long does it take? It doesn’t take that long to get there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: How long does it take to get there? Devotee: Half hour. Gurudas: If . . . if we don’t have . . . Prabhupāda: And they are prepared to give you transport facilities also. Śyāmasundara: But do we . . . do we need all of this equipment for traveling, then? Amplifiers, microphones, tents? Prabhupāda: Traveling equipments, not for Indian villages. Śyāmasundara: No, for towns, for cities. Gurudas: Why do we need tents in cities? Śyāmasundara: Well, if it rains. Camp. Set up camp for big cities? Is that . . . is it better to go . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. You, you can preach in cities. You cannot preach in the villages. Śyāmasundara: Because just like here we are at the mercy of so many people. Only if they provide us can we go into their place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: We shift here, shift there. If we have our tents, we have our own transport, we can find some field or some beach. Prabhupāda: But that is a . . . that is a big job. You have, if you have to fix your tents, and somebody will have to go find out some place where to fix it. Gurudas: Also the machinery, repair it. Prabhupāda: Requires at least one hundred men. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Gurudas: So the priority is the printed literature. That is the priority. Devotee (3): (speaking on phone) Yes, is Lalji there, Shri Lalji? Prabhupāda: Sa . . . Sadajitlal. *Devotee (3): Saja, Sadajitwa*-lal. Prabhupāda: (on phone) Hello. Ah, Swāmījī. Sadajitlalji ko hum chahte hai. Hum to idhar Natanchi Road se bol raha hun. (I want Sadajitlalji. I am speaking from Natanchi Road.) Swāmījī, Swami Bhaktivedanta. Swami Bhaktivedanta. Bhaktivedanta. Hello. Hello. Boliye? Nahi hai . . . accha. (Please talk. Not there . . . okay.) (to devotees) He is not. Gurudas: Not there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Call his residence now. That's . . . that's his business phone. Should I try his other business phone or . . . no, they're in the same room I think. It seems to me he should have come to visit you today, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. He did not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. *Gurudas: Besides, in age of Kali*-yuga, most of the land is taken up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (referring to phone) Both are engaged. So, do you like the idea of traveling all over the world, Prabhupāda? Having a full kirtana party travel with you? Prabhupāda: That is our original idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, we can open temples later on . . . Prabhupāda: Temple, that temple, if somebody comes forward to give us temple, then think of temple. We cannot take responsibility opening a temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can . . . not for this mission. Later on. Later on we can come back for that purpose specifically. Just like when we sent someone to Berlin to open a temple, we can send men to Bombay, to this place. But for now, if we can travel widely around the world, throughout the Middle East, Africa, South America, go to Europe . . . Prabhupāda: This man dealing, that was apparatively nice. He did see even the whole day, and for him I stayed. And wherever there is phone he is not there, he is not there. And he is waiting for the list. That is a perplexity. If you want to go out, then give out the names. But this man's dealing is not very satisfactory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no doubt that if . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You see, if we open up the temples now, on our way around, traveling around, then it limits our ability to travel. But if we stick to our principles, simply traveling and preaching widely and distributing great literature, in great, great quantity, and making many, many members throughout the world, then we'll have many contacts for later on, when we can go back and open temples. There'll be many contacts. Just like Your Divine Grace, Prabhupāda, you have made many contacts, so that now, coming back from India, immediately there are many people we can go and see who you already know. Prabhupāda: Oh, that seeing is useless. Now this man is waiting so long. What to do? Śyāmasundara: Do you think we should take advantage of being in Bombay to see Mr. Birla, people like that, for some financial help? Prabhupāda: But where you will stay? Śyāmasundara: Well, if there are only four, we can stay someplace, any place. Only four men. Prabhupāda: Then give him the names and we will stay . . . Gurudas: Also printing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is our purpose in staying behind now, Prabhupāda? This we don't understand. What . . . that's our difficulty. Gurudas: When we need some funds, wasn't the reason that you didn’t come from Calcutta to here is because no one arranged for the trip? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not funds that are needed. We don't require funds to travel. I am . . . Prabhupāda: Then let . . . let us go out to Amritsar. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's our program to be out there. That's what is confusing me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's . . . I don’t know if Your Divine Grace would rather travel or to open temples. I, I am confused by that, because I don't know whether I should be thinking about my . . . you know, my attention should be on. Prabhupāda: Which? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The three of us would like to work in a very organized way, but we don't know how to place our, our, our efforts together, because we are not certain if we should be thinking in terms of establishing a center or in terms of just widely spreading for a shorter time. Prabhupāda: No, widely spreading, that is our main business. You think in that way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Prabhupāda: Temple, if you have got sufficient nice men to manage temple, then you will keep it just like Gauḍīya Maṭha—that getting some money by begging and eating and laying down. Gurudas: Yes, the men have to step forward. If they don't, it's useless. If they don't step forward . . . we are preachers, and if they don't step forward seriously enough, it's very difficult. What about printing? That's the thing that's on my mind. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Gurudas: I would like to hand out leaflets, if possible. Hand out something. Do you think that is . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: . . . a worthwhile thing? Prabhupāda: What's that? Gurudas: To get some printed material that we can hand out? Prabhupāda: Printed materials, thousands, they are giving us so many books. So many people come and give . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 16, 1971, Bombay Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . let's say our needs. But we know people who will buy it somewhere else. But . . . (indistinct) . . . will change. Perhaps we should have our own place of worship. Prabhupāda: Indians . . . (indistinct) . . . students are from all over the world, through birth. We should, when we see that . . . (indistinct) . . . also try for . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not like your country, that velvet road and everywhere there is motel, there is supply of gas and this, that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we'll come with you immediately. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we'll all come with you now. The only reason we want to remain in Bombay was to purchase vans, trucks. Now I fear, Prabhupāda, is that . . . that we know that Your Divine Grace . . . Prabhupāda: But what . . . where you shall remain? This place is not for . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we won't remain. *Prabhupāda: That man, Jamun, that building, that Sītā*-Rāma . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: . . . they are welcoming us. They are . . . (indistinct) . . . to help when the building is . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are also prepared to give you transport facilities. But it is very away from Bombay. Śyāmasundara: The only reason we were thinking to remain in Bombay for a short time is to get equipment and printing leaflets to pass out in Indian languages along the way while we will travel. Prabhupāda: If you get equipment for traveling, you still you do not know Indian language. How you will preach in the villages? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's right. I think Prabhupāda's right. There's no preaching in . . . Prabhupāda: Villages, you have no scope for preaching . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, only the major cities. Prabhupāda: Major cities, and amongst the enlightened class. Just like last evening we had, they are all enlightened. So unless we get such support, from the mass of people you cannot. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Say if we try to establish temples wherever you go now . . . Prabhupāda: No. Apart from establishing temple, you don’t establish. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just, the saṅkīrtana party will be depleted if every time we go and leave the city we try and leave some men there to open a temple. There won’t be any men left. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This should be a tour of the world, I think, trying to give the whole world an idea of Krsna consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. We were thinking that everywhere we go we could take down names and addresses in great detail, as well as make members throughout the world, and then to retrace our steps later on and open temples. For instance, to come back to Bombay . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, in Bombay we are finding difficulty, forth*-class at the present moment. This is temporary. And that place is not good. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I think it was, that Madanan's place, it is not Madanan's place. It has been wrong place shown. Madanan is very rich man. I think that proprietor . . . you showed me one house? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That place is right place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are shown a wrong place. Devotee: Oh. And there's no one in there. He said there was no one home . . . Prabhupāda: You went to . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . bring the . . . Śyāmasundara: There was no one there . . . Prabhupāda: That place is the right place. Śyāmasundara: There were locks on all the doors. Big locks on every door. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why did they do that? Prabhupāda: That is another cheating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's a cheating. Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not know what is the policy of this . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lalji. Prabhupāda: Lalji. Devotee: Tomorrow that gentleman . . . Prabhupāda: Why don’t you call him? He cannot be seen. He cannot . . . he did not come. Call . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Call and let him come. Who is it? Who is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's this man from Agarwal. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants the list of men who will come. Prabhupāda: Yes, so . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We’re not prepared, though, to do it, unless . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . aur thoda wait karo (. . . wait a little more.) Gurudas: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Hindi me likh de do. Accha. Hindi me . . . (Write it down in Hindi and give to me. Okay in Hindi . . .) that Sītā*-Rāma temple, they are very much anxious to receive us. Gurudas: How long does it take? It doesn’t take that long to get there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: How long does it take to get there? Devotee: Half hour. Gurudas: If . . . if we don’t have . . . Prabhupāda: And they are prepared to give you transport facilities also. Śyāmasundara: But do we . . . do we need all of this equipment for traveling, then? Amplifiers, microphones, tents? Prabhupāda: Traveling equipments, not for Indian villages. Śyāmasundara: No, for towns, for cities. Gurudas: Why do we need tents in cities? Śyāmasundara: Well, if it rains. Camp. Set up camp for big cities? Is that . . . is it better to go . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. You, you can preach in cities. You cannot preach in the villages. Śyāmasundara: Because just like here we are at the mercy of so many people. Only if they provide us can we go into their place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: We shift here, shift there. If we have our tents, we have our own transport, we can find some field or some beach. Prabhupāda: But that is a . . . that is a big job. You have, if you have to fix your tents, and somebody will have to go find out some place where to fix it. Gurudas: Also the machinery, repair it. Prabhupāda: Requires at least one hundred men. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Gurudas: So the priority is the printed literature. That is the priority. Devotee (3): (speaking on phone) Yes, is Lalji there, Shri Lalji? Prabhupāda: Sa . . . Sadajitlal. *Devotee (3): Saja, Sadajitwa*-lal. Prabhupāda: (on phone) Hello. Ah, Swāmījī. Sadajitlalji ko hum chahte hai. Hum to idhar Natanchi Road se bol raha hun. (I want Sadajitlalji. I am speaking from Natanchi Road.) Swāmījī, Swami Bhaktivedanta. Swami Bhaktivedanta. Bhaktivedanta. Hello. Hello. Boliye? Nahi hai . . . accha. (Please talk. Not there . . . okay.) (to devotees) He is not. Gurudas: Not there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Call his residence now. That's . . . that's his business phone. Should I try his other business phone or . . . no, they're in the same room I think. It seems to me he should have come to visit you today, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. He did not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. *Gurudas: Besides, in age of Kali*-yuga, most of the land is taken up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (referring to phone) Both are engaged. So, do you like the idea of traveling all over the world, Prabhupāda? Having a full kirtana party travel with you? Prabhupāda: That is our original idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, we can open temples later on . . . Prabhupāda: Temple, that temple, if somebody comes forward to give us temple, then think of temple. We cannot take responsibility opening a temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can . . . not for this mission. Later on. Later on we can come back for that purpose specifically. Just like when we sent someone to Berlin to open a temple, we can send men to Bombay, to this place. But for now, if we can travel widely around the world, throughout the Middle East, Africa, South America, go to Europe . . . Prabhupāda: This man dealing, that was apparatively nice. He did see even the whole day, and for him I stayed. And wherever there is phone he is not there, he is not there. And he is waiting for the list. That is a perplexity. If you want to go out, then give out the names. But this man's dealing is not very satisfactory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no doubt that if . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You see, if we open up the temples now, on our way around, traveling around, then it limits our ability to travel. But if we stick to our principles, simply traveling and preaching widely and distributing great literature, in great, great quantity, and making many, many members throughout the world, then we'll have many contacts for later on, when we can go back and open temples. There'll be many contacts. Just like Your Divine Grace, Prabhupāda, you have made many contacts, so that now, coming back from India, immediately there are many people we can go and see who you already know. Prabhupāda: Oh, that seeing is useless. Now this man is waiting so long. What to do? Śyāmasundara: Do you think we should take advantage of being in Bombay to see Mr. Birla, people like that, for some financial help? Prabhupāda: But where you will stay? Śyāmasundara: Well, if there are only four, we can stay someplace, any place. Only four men. Prabhupāda: Then give him the names and we will stay . . . Gurudas: Also printing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is our purpose in staying behind now, Prabhupāda? This we don't understand. What . . . that's our difficulty. Gurudas: When we need some funds, wasn't the reason that you didn’t come from Calcutta to here is because no one arranged for the trip? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not funds that are needed. We don't require funds to travel. I am . . . Prabhupāda: Then let . . . let us go out to Amritsar. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's our program to be out there. That's what is confusing me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's . . . I don’t know if Your Divine Grace would rather travel or to open temples. I, I am confused by that, because I don't know whether I should be thinking about my . . . you know, my attention should be on. Prabhupāda: Which? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The three of us would like to work in a very organized way, but we don't know how to place our, our, our efforts together, because we are not certain if we should be thinking in terms of establishing a center or in terms of just widely spreading for a shorter time. Prabhupāda: No, widely spreading, that is our main business. You think in that way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Prabhupāda: Temple, if you have got sufficient nice men to manage temple, then you will keep it just like Gauḍīya Maṭha—that getting some money by begging and eating and laying down. Gurudas: Yes, the men have to step forward. If they don't, it's useless. If they don't step forward . . . we are preachers, and if they don't step forward seriously enough, it's very difficult. What about printing? That's the thing that's on my mind. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Gurudas: I would like to hand out leaflets, if possible. Hand out something. Do you think that is . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: . . . a worthwhile thing? Prabhupāda: What's that? Gurudas: To get some printed material that we can hand out? Prabhupāda: Printed materials, thousands, they are giving us so many books. So many people come and give . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 18, 1971, Bombay Prabhupāda: Wherever there is sun, there is sunlight, immediately. Where there is light, immediately there is illumination. Just like a drop of poison. You just take a drop of poison; as soon as it touches the tongue, immediately it expands all over the body and it make the whole blood, water, dead. How it expands, a small grain of potassium cyanide? Simply a grain, immediately, second. If a material thing can have so much effect immediately, the spiritual atom cannot do that? That is called science. *Similarly, the biggest spiritual identity, Kṛṣṇa, He can become all*-pervading. We are particle spiritual, spark. We have got limited power to expand . . . yena sarvam idaṁ tatam ( BG 2.17), and become immediately expanded throughout My body. And He is unlimitedly big. So how much His consciousness is distributed all over the universe, sarva-jña . Therefore Kṛṣṇa is not abhijña . Svarāṭ . Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheśv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This example is nice. A grain of potassium cyanide is sufficient. There is no taste. The chemical characteristic of potassium cyanide, they have not mentioned the taste, because as soon as there is taste—finished. They cannot . . . (laughter) He cannot say whether it is pungent or sweet. (laughter) finished. So there is no taste. (pause) (break) (end) Conversation -- March 18, 1971, Bombay Prabhupāda: Wherever there is sun, there is sunlight, immediately. Where there is light, immediately there is illumination. Just like a drop of poison. You just take a drop of poison; as soon as it touches the tongue, immediately it expands all over the body and it make the whole blood, water, dead. How it expands, a small grain of potassium cyanide? Simply a grain, immediately, second. If a material thing can have so much effect immediately, the spiritual atom cannot do that? That is called science. *Similarly, the biggest spiritual identity, Kṛṣṇa, He can become all*-pervading. We are particle spiritual, spark. We have got limited power to expand . . . yena sarvam idaṁ tatam ( BG 2.17), and become immediately expanded throughout My body. And He is unlimitedly big. So how much His consciousness is distributed all over the universe, sarva-jña . Therefore Kṛṣṇa is not abhijña . Svarāṭ . Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheśv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This example is nice. A grain of potassium cyanide is sufficient. There is no taste. The chemical characteristic of potassium cyanide, they have not mentioned the taste, because as soon as there is taste—finished. They cannot . . . (laughter) He cannot say whether it is pungent or sweet. (laughter) finished. So there is no taste. (pause) (break) (end) Conversation -- March 21, 1971, Bombay Prabhupāda: You have tried to follow the principles which we are following. Now here, all your associates, they have joined us? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that . . . that's nice. You are welcome. Where is Sai? Devotee: Oh, he's in Honolulu right now. Prabhupāda: So, what is his opinion? He wants to keep himself separate? Devotee: What from? Prabhupāda: From us, from our institution? Devotee: He says . . . he told me several months ago, "I'm going to go where I rightfully belong, and that's at the lotus feet of my spiritual master." He said that, "I have these disciples, so they are my responsibility, and I cannot make this step until these devotees are fixed up enough so that they won't go back to māyā ." And he says this is possible, because this is where he belongs. So he called our devotees that . . . he said that he wanted to please you he would be willing to transfer to you. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So, I think once he wrote me letter, and I replied. You remember? Devotee: I heard that. Yes, I saw . . . Prabhupāda: I think it was from that time, during . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Yes. I saw that letter. It was given to us in New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: The thing is that we are strictly following the disciplic succession, and so, dovetailing. It doesn't matter if he works independently on this principle, but a dovetailing will give him strength, spiritual strength. So best thing will be to amalgamate, and follow our principles and work from there. Officially, he has to accept a spiritual master. That is necessary. So has he got any objection? *Devotee: No. He's . . . he left Honolulu first and he told me, he told all the devotees he was going to take the lowest position in the temple. He was going to surrender at the feet of your devotees. So he flew to San Francisco. Over fifty devotees went to different temples. The first night, thirty*-five devotees left. Six went to San Francisco with Sai. And he came back after a few days, and went to stay with Gaurasundara at his . . . Prabhupāda: They're, all your brothers, they have shaven heads. Shaven heads. No? Devotee: Yes. They are all . . . Prabhupāda: All? Devotee: The first morning Sai told all the devotees, at night, and the next morning, he came out a little bit, our first meeting in the morning with his long hair, and then he went back to his room and came out again with his head shaved. He said: "Anyone who wants to follow my example, please do so." And every boy . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: . . . every boy shaved his head immediately. Prabhupāda: I think Sai was present in a meeting in Honolulu last time, and your all members, some of them were present. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But he did not talk with me at that time. I did not know who was Sai, but Govinda dāsī told me that he was present. Devotee (3): I think in London . . . (indistinct) . . . received one letter from Govinda dāsī mentioning about Sai. And so then . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So try to understand that whatever we are doing, it is not concocted; it is authorized. We are following the principles authorized. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ ( CC Madhya 17.186). The spiritual life is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ . It is very confidential, and nobody can find it out without the help of ācārya . Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Therefore, the real path is to follow the footsteps of great ācāryas , and . . . *Indian man: They have come from this . . . that Ṭhākura . . . (indistinct) . . . they are engaged with this Bhāgavata*-saptāha , after pūjā . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man: They have . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . will not be so effective. Indian man: Okay. So, can we keep in the morning, because regularly they get the time in the morning now. Prabhupāda: Hah? Indian man: We will get the time in the morning, after coming from the . . . this kīrtana . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man: . . . at about nine we will be returning here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Then there is no program officially. And if you like, we will keep at ten o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have already fixed up from five to seven. *Indian man: Five to seven we are already fixed there with Sanātana*-sevāsaṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: So you want more next time? Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: That five to seven is sufficient. Indian man: Yes. So . . . Prabhupāda: Within that . . . Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . you make some arrangement . . . Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . for hearing from me . . . Indian man: All right. Prabhupāda: . . . the teachings of Bhāgavata . . . Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: . . . or Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Indian man: I see. Prabhupāda: . . . continually for some days. Indian man: All right. Prabhupāda: That will be nice, effective. Indian man: So, we will direct these bhajanas , and . . . Prabhupāda: Bhajanas ? Indian man: We will direct sometime. Prabhupāda: Bhajana will be in the beginning, as we have done, kīrtana . And then at the last, class. In the middle . . . Indian man: Middle only. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian man: You, you will, if . . . that is we'll do in some sort. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do that. So, practically you have decided to follow our principles. Now do it. Everything will be all right. *Devotee: But, there's . . . there's some confusion amongst many of the devotees who have taken kṛṣṇa*-yoga from you, because for so long, you know, we've been worshiping Sai as God. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not good. Devotee: Yes, I recognize that. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Says in the scriptures that . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Devotees should treat the spiritual master as God. Prabhupāda: Treating as . . . (indistinct) Devotee: But this does not mean that we are saying that Sai is God. Prabhupāda: Just like my disciples give me royal throne and treats me just like a king, but that does not mean I am king. Devotee: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They offer me respect. That is their duty. But if, because they offer me respect in that way, if I say then I have become Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. Devotee: Yes, I understand, though it's not to say that he was saying . . . Prabhupāda: It's their duty to offer me respect, as much respect Kṛṣṇa is offered; more than that. That is their duty. But my duty is not that declare that I have become Kṛṣṇa. Then it is Māyāvādī. Then it is gone, everything is gone. Spiritual master is servant God, and Kṛṣṇa is God, and because in the absolute field there is no distinction between the servant and the master . . . there is distinction. The servant always knows that "I am servant," and master knows that "I am master," although still there is no distinction. That is absolute. *Then Vaikuṇṭha, all the inhabitants are just like Nārāyaṇa, and in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, all the cowherds boys, they are as good as Kṛṣṇa. They do not know that Kṛṣṇa is . . . they love Kṛṣṇa intensely, without knowing that He is God, and that is required. The love is required. Not that one has to know Kṛṣṇa is God. God or no God, we love Kṛṣṇa, unconditionally. That is required. Although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, but the vṛndāvana*-vāsī , they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God, but their love for Kṛṣṇa is so intense, that makes them perfect. That is required. *Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-manjusa). We have to increase our love, I mean to say, so intensely. There is, Vṛndāvana, inhabitants Vṛndāvana, even Nārāyaṇa they did not care so much. They offered respect. They love Kṛṣṇa so. And that is required. Not to understand what is God, and not to become God, but to love Kṛṣṇa. But you cannot understand God, neither you can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is because Kṛṣṇa is so unlimited. He, He, He becomes just, just like human being, human child, that is His grace; but it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. If one says that, "I understood Kṛṣṇa," he is another fool. (laughs) Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. But still, one has to intensify his love for Kṛṣṇa without any deviation. That is perfection. So it is very good that you have started the Kṛṣṇa Yoga Society. The name, name Kṛṣṇa was there; that has benefited you. Somehow or other, you developed some love for Kṛṣṇa. That has made you to come to us. That very conception that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord has benefited you. Only that qualification. So now you have come, you take it seriously, and according to regulative principle, then your life is perfect. But if Sai is still thinking of himself as God, that's not very good. Devotee: I think he was only saying we should . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody can be God. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . He was never claiming that. Prabhupāda: This is Māyāvāda. Devotee: . . . we were following the Vedic injunction of . . . of treating the spiritual master . . . Prabhupāda: We are, we are, we are in quality one with God. The substance as we are, the same as God. In that way we are not different, so far substance, just like a chemical composition, that is one. One can study Kṛṣṇa by studying His personal propensities. Just like the characteristic of the father is manifested in the characteristic of the son, or the son's characteristic is manifested in the father, similarly, all the characteristics of Kṛṣṇa are with . . . are with us. Indian man: Namaskāra . Prabhupāda: Aiye . Indian man: They wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . they, they said they wanted to go out of . . . (indistinct) . . . station, so I came just now because . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . only, because we accepted Kṛṣṇa, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). The devotional service . . . one can enter into the devotional service by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and guru . Guru*-kṛṣṇa . So one who is sincerely thinking of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa gives him good spiritual master. And then, with the cooperation of spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, the devotee becomes enhanced in spiritual life. *Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . You have read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya ? In there you will find both. So one has to serve, parallel, guru and Kṛṣṇa. To serve Kṛṣṇa under the direction of guru , that is perfection. And . . . and . . . and treat spiritual master as Kṛṣṇa, but not to commit mistake that he is Kṛṣṇa To love spiritual master as good as Kṛṣṇa, that's nice, but this is Māyāvāda if one thinks that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa, or spiritual master declares himself that, "I am Kṛṣṇa." That is very offensive. That will check further progress in spiritual life. So I will reply this letter. It is very good. Welcome. You are welcome. You are sincere soul, and follow these regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then officially we shall accept you, and you work jointly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is necessary throughout the whole world. So Sai is intelligent boy, you are intelligent; take it seriously, and reclaim the confused boys, those who are passing as hippies. Try to convince them about the importance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will be saved. Your country will be saved. The world will be saved. People will be happy. It is a nice movement. Try to understand. You have got immense work to do. These fallen souls, these misguided, confused boys and girls, I have got every sympathy for them. They have been misguided, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially meant for them. Let them take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will get what they are searching after. These confused boys and girls, they are searching after something happy. They will find it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. So I'll especially request your group to teach these confused boys passing as hippies. So many thousands of boys and girls, especially in America. Devotee: Especially. Prabhupāda: Especially. Especially in our . . . I have seen. So try to convince them. That is Kṛṣṇa's service. You, you are practically experienced from your past life to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you can better convince them. So I will write to Sai, you also write, and combined together just try to reclaim these confused souls. That will be your service, great service. Don't be satisfied that, "We have got now Kṛṣṇa. Our business is finished." No. You will reclaim your brothers, and that is greater service. So conjointly do it, and if Sai comes here, I shall also request him. We have got very, I mean to say, responsible task, on behalf of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to reclaim these fallen souls. Do it. That will be very nice. Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased. Devotee: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Try to reclaim, save these boys, save these souls. You see? Otherwise, by laws of nature, their life will be spoiled. Law of nature is very strict, stringent. If you develop animal propensities, you will have to become animal. You do not become—you will get another facility, by animal body. You are always spirit soul, but because you desire like that, your desire will produce a body like that. So these laws of nature is so subtle, as soon as you desire something to become, "Yes, here it is." So your best service to Kṛṣṇa will be to save these hippies. Somehow or other convince them that best thing, our process is very simple. Somehow or other call them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let them hear and give them prasādam , that's all. You . . . you remain pure, and your purity of service, your association, will influence them. If you remain pure. And then they will gradually come. *All over the world. In India they have become Communists, Naxalites, but I have studied: they are all good souls. Soul always good. Simply they are misguided. Soul cannot be not good, because the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is all*-good; therefore, constitutionally, every soul is good. But by demonic association they become bad. (aside) Accha . Where is that cloth? I forgot. That one Madrasi gentleman get. You put it in this closet. Devotee: I'll put it in that closet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Chambur . Prabhupāda: Chambur . Devotee: Certainly in the. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . that's all. Devotee: I have a question about the position of the devotees now they are living in ISKCON temples. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Just like, when Sai told the devotees that we were all going to be joining ISKCON . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. You live just like my other disciples are living. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then I shall initiate you. That's all. I have given them standard by instruction and by my books. So live according to that, and try to serve Kṛṣṇa by reclaiming these confused souls passing as hippies. That will be great service to the society, to your country and to Kṛṣṇa. Try to save them. Woman devotee: These devotees, already they are living in a very simple . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. Woman devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So issue instruction that treat them very nicely; they are good souls. Immediately issue. Where . . . where . . . wherever they have gone, you issue the letter. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Woman devotee: Śyāmasundara has written I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very—Kṛṣṇa's grace that you have come to us. Because you, somehow or other, you developed a little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given you the opportunity to come to us. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. As soon as He sees a little attachment for Him, immediately gives all facilities. So they are coming to us—another indication that this ISKCON movement is approved by Kṛṣṇa. Those who are sincere, they are coming, they are coming. So keep it very pure, then all of you will be benefited. Yes. He can write to Sai. I will also write. What is address now? Devotee: He's staying at the ISKCON temple, 2016 . . . (indistinct) . . . street Śyāmasundara: He's staying with Gaurasundara and Govinda dāsī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gaurasundara has written? Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That's nice. So I shall one . . . dictate one letter, tomorrow. Immediately post. It is very good that you have come, and we are also pleased. Kṛṣṇa is pleased, everyone is pleased. Yes. The greatest disservice is to misguide. That people are in misery, so*-called rascal leaders and svāmīs , simply they do not know what is the end of life. Simply misguide. Misguiding also . . . people want to be misguided. You see? They want confirmation of their misdeeds. Whatever misdeeds they are doing, they go to somebody, and if it is confirmed, oh, then is good sermon. (laughs) Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. We were in the temple one time, there was so much Sai Baba literature and his testimonial, and the people wanted to do nonsense, and they went to Sai Baba, and he said: "Yes, you can do it," and then they would say: "Yes, Sai Baba said I could drink tea," or whatever. Devotee: So what is our position towards Sai? This is where, brings great confusion in the minds of the devotees. Immediately they ask. Devotee (2): Because they used to accept him as spiritual master, so now, now that's all finished . . . Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (2): . . . so, what is their relationship . . .? Prabhupāda: Let, let Sai accept me as spiritual master, and you remain Sai's disciple, but be initiated properly. Or it is Sai's duty to deliver all his followers to me. That will be very nice. As he has surrendered all his money, similarly, he can surrender all his followers. Devotee (3): It's like in the army. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. And then it is very good—for him and for his followers. Devotee: He wrote this fall about that to the devotees. "Shaved heads. Now we are all disciples of Prabhupāda. I can no longer treat you externally as my disciples, because of the negative reaction I will incur . . . (indistinct) . . . if you are internally attached, that is fine. Please me by serving Prabhupāda and his devotees. Prabhupāda must first okay my taking on disciples. He may or he may not. I will follow his orders. He tells me to kill you all, I will kill you." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Very, very good letter. That's very good. So I shall write to him. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Śikṣā*-guru or dīkṣā-guru . Initiated . . . initiator master and instructor master. So you can treat him as your instructor master. That is allowed. He will understand. I shall write. Now you live as you are living, everything will be pure. So this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and thinking of Kṛṣṇa has made you so much advanced. They are chanting. (laughs) Devotee: They chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. I always indirectly encouraged. I asked Gargamuni (laughing) why he is asking whether we shall supply coat? And why not? They are chanting, why should we not supply? They are purchasing books regular. Why not? So let them associate with our views and ideas. *Devotee: So I was teaching mystical yoga for a long time when I read your books, and I immediately stopped. I was teaching kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , kriyā-yoga , these processes. One day he came from Oahu to the āśrama on Maui, "There'll be no more meditation. From now on just sit and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's nice. That is the . . . Devotee: No more fasting. Prabhupāda: . . . best, best meditation. Very . . . Kṛṣṇa has helped you; now you stick to these principles. Very good. I shall reply this letter. All right. Devotees: (offer obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness method. The more you will sing, the more you will become satisfied. It is very good that you have come. Now combine together. Just save these confused boys. You have got immense work in the Western countries. Immense work. You write Sai. He is very intelligent boy. You are also intelligent boy. Combine together. And the plan is very simple. Somehow or other call them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give prasādam , that's all. (break) (end) Conversation -- March 21, 1971, Bombay Prabhupāda: You have tried to follow the principles which we are following. Now here, all your associates, they have joined us? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that . . . that's nice. You are welcome. Where is Sai? Devotee: Oh, he's in Honolulu right now. Prabhupāda: So, what is his opinion? He wants to keep himself separate? Devotee: What from? Prabhupāda: From us, from our institution? Devotee: He says . . . he told me several months ago, "I'm going to go where I rightfully belong, and that's at the lotus feet of my spiritual master." He said that, "I have these disciples, so they are my responsibility, and I cannot make this step until these devotees are fixed up enough so that they won't go back to māyā ." And he says this is possible, because this is where he belongs. So he called our devotees that . . . he said that he wanted to please you he would be willing to transfer to you. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So, I think once he wrote me letter, and I replied. You remember? Devotee: I heard that. Yes, I saw . . . Prabhupāda: I think it was from that time, during . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Yes. I saw that letter. It was given to us in New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: The thing is that we are strictly following the disciplic succession, and so, dovetailing. It doesn't matter if he works independently on this principle, but a dovetailing will give him strength, spiritual strength. So best thing will be to amalgamate, and follow our principles and work from there. Officially, he has to accept a spiritual master. That is necessary. So has he got any objection? *Devotee: No. He's . . . he left Honolulu first and he told me, he told all the devotees he was going to take the lowest position in the temple. He was going to surrender at the feet of your devotees. So he flew to San Francisco. Over fifty devotees went to different temples. The first night, thirty*-five devotees left. Six went to San Francisco with Sai. And he came back after a few days, and went to stay with Gaurasundara at his . . . Prabhupāda: They're, all your brothers, they have shaven heads. Shaven heads. No? Devotee: Yes. They are all . . . Prabhupāda: All? Devotee: The first morning Sai told all the devotees, at night, and the next morning, he came out a little bit, our first meeting in the morning with his long hair, and then he went back to his room and came out again with his head shaved. He said: "Anyone who wants to follow my example, please do so." And every boy . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: . . . every boy shaved his head immediately. Prabhupāda: I think Sai was present in a meeting in Honolulu last time, and your all members, some of them were present. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But he did not talk with me at that time. I did not know who was Sai, but Govinda dāsī told me that he was present. Devotee (3): I think in London . . . (indistinct) . . . received one letter from Govinda dāsī mentioning about Sai. And so then . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So try to understand that whatever we are doing, it is not concocted; it is authorized. We are following the principles authorized. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ ( CC Madhya 17.186). The spiritual life is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ . It is very confidential, and nobody can find it out without the help of ācārya . Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Therefore, the real path is to follow the footsteps of great ācāryas , and . . . *Indian man: They have come from this . . . that Ṭhākura . . . (indistinct) . . . they are engaged with this Bhāgavata*-saptāha , after pūjā . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man: They have . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . will not be so effective. Indian man: Okay. So, can we keep in the morning, because regularly they get the time in the morning now. Prabhupāda: Hah? Indian man: We will get the time in the morning, after coming from the . . . this kīrtana . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man: . . . at about nine we will be returning here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Then there is no program officially. And if you like, we will keep at ten o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have already fixed up from five to seven. *Indian man: Five to seven we are already fixed there with Sanātana*-sevāsaṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: So you want more next time? Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: That five to seven is sufficient. Indian man: Yes. So . . . Prabhupāda: Within that . . . Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . you make some arrangement . . . Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . for hearing from me . . . Indian man: All right. Prabhupāda: . . . the teachings of Bhāgavata . . . Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: . . . or Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Indian man: I see. Prabhupāda: . . . continually for some days. Indian man: All right. Prabhupāda: That will be nice, effective. Indian man: So, we will direct these bhajanas , and . . . Prabhupāda: Bhajanas ? Indian man: We will direct sometime. Prabhupāda: Bhajana will be in the beginning, as we have done, kīrtana . And then at the last, class. In the middle . . . Indian man: Middle only. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian man: You, you will, if . . . that is we'll do in some sort. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do that. So, practically you have decided to follow our principles. Now do it. Everything will be all right. *Devotee: But, there's . . . there's some confusion amongst many of the devotees who have taken kṛṣṇa*-yoga from you, because for so long, you know, we've been worshiping Sai as God. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not good. Devotee: Yes, I recognize that. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Says in the scriptures that . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Devotees should treat the spiritual master as God. Prabhupāda: Treating as . . . (indistinct) Devotee: But this does not mean that we are saying that Sai is God. Prabhupāda: Just like my disciples give me royal throne and treats me just like a king, but that does not mean I am king. Devotee: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They offer me respect. That is their duty. But if, because they offer me respect in that way, if I say then I have become Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. Devotee: Yes, I understand, though it's not to say that he was saying . . . Prabhupāda: It's their duty to offer me respect, as much respect Kṛṣṇa is offered; more than that. That is their duty. But my duty is not that declare that I have become Kṛṣṇa. Then it is Māyāvādī. Then it is gone, everything is gone. Spiritual master is servant God, and Kṛṣṇa is God, and because in the absolute field there is no distinction between the servant and the master . . . there is distinction. The servant always knows that "I am servant," and master knows that "I am master," although still there is no distinction. That is absolute. *Then Vaikuṇṭha, all the inhabitants are just like Nārāyaṇa, and in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, all the cowherds boys, they are as good as Kṛṣṇa. They do not know that Kṛṣṇa is . . . they love Kṛṣṇa intensely, without knowing that He is God, and that is required. The love is required. Not that one has to know Kṛṣṇa is God. God or no God, we love Kṛṣṇa, unconditionally. That is required. Although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, but the vṛndāvana*-vāsī , they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God, but their love for Kṛṣṇa is so intense, that makes them perfect. That is required. *Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-manjusa). We have to increase our love, I mean to say, so intensely. There is, Vṛndāvana, inhabitants Vṛndāvana, even Nārāyaṇa they did not care so much. They offered respect. They love Kṛṣṇa so. And that is required. Not to understand what is God, and not to become God, but to love Kṛṣṇa. But you cannot understand God, neither you can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is because Kṛṣṇa is so unlimited. He, He, He becomes just, just like human being, human child, that is His grace; but it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. If one says that, "I understood Kṛṣṇa," he is another fool. (laughs) Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. But still, one has to intensify his love for Kṛṣṇa without any deviation. That is perfection. So it is very good that you have started the Kṛṣṇa Yoga Society. The name, name Kṛṣṇa was there; that has benefited you. Somehow or other, you developed some love for Kṛṣṇa. That has made you to come to us. That very conception that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord has benefited you. Only that qualification. So now you have come, you take it seriously, and according to regulative principle, then your life is perfect. But if Sai is still thinking of himself as God, that's not very good. Devotee: I think he was only saying we should . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody can be God. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . He was never claiming that. Prabhupāda: This is Māyāvāda. Devotee: . . . we were following the Vedic injunction of . . . of treating the spiritual master . . . Prabhupāda: We are, we are, we are in quality one with God. The substance as we are, the same as God. In that way we are not different, so far substance, just like a chemical composition, that is one. One can study Kṛṣṇa by studying His personal propensities. Just like the characteristic of the father is manifested in the characteristic of the son, or the son's characteristic is manifested in the father, similarly, all the characteristics of Kṛṣṇa are with . . . are with us. Indian man: Namaskāra . Prabhupāda: Aiye . Indian man: They wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . they, they said they wanted to go out of . . . (indistinct) . . . station, so I came just now because . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . only, because we accepted Kṛṣṇa, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). The devotional service . . . one can enter into the devotional service by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and guru . Guru*-kṛṣṇa . So one who is sincerely thinking of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa gives him good spiritual master. And then, with the cooperation of spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, the devotee becomes enhanced in spiritual life. *Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . You have read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya ? In there you will find both. So one has to serve, parallel, guru and Kṛṣṇa. To serve Kṛṣṇa under the direction of guru , that is perfection. And . . . and . . . and treat spiritual master as Kṛṣṇa, but not to commit mistake that he is Kṛṣṇa To love spiritual master as good as Kṛṣṇa, that's nice, but this is Māyāvāda if one thinks that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa, or spiritual master declares himself that, "I am Kṛṣṇa." That is very offensive. That will check further progress in spiritual life. So I will reply this letter. It is very good. Welcome. You are welcome. You are sincere soul, and follow these regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then officially we shall accept you, and you work jointly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is necessary throughout the whole world. So Sai is intelligent boy, you are intelligent; take it seriously, and reclaim the confused boys, those who are passing as hippies. Try to convince them about the importance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will be saved. Your country will be saved. The world will be saved. People will be happy. It is a nice movement. Try to understand. You have got immense work to do. These fallen souls, these misguided, confused boys and girls, I have got every sympathy for them. They have been misguided, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially meant for them. Let them take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will get what they are searching after. These confused boys and girls, they are searching after something happy. They will find it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. So I'll especially request your group to teach these confused boys passing as hippies. So many thousands of boys and girls, especially in America. Devotee: Especially. Prabhupāda: Especially. Especially in our . . . I have seen. So try to convince them. That is Kṛṣṇa's service. You, you are practically experienced from your past life to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you can better convince them. So I will write to Sai, you also write, and combined together just try to reclaim these confused souls. That will be your service, great service. Don't be satisfied that, "We have got now Kṛṣṇa. Our business is finished." No. You will reclaim your brothers, and that is greater service. So conjointly do it, and if Sai comes here, I shall also request him. We have got very, I mean to say, responsible task, on behalf of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to reclaim these fallen souls. Do it. That will be very nice. Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased. Devotee: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Try to reclaim, save these boys, save these souls. You see? Otherwise, by laws of nature, their life will be spoiled. Law of nature is very strict, stringent. If you develop animal propensities, you will have to become animal. You do not become—you will get another facility, by animal body. You are always spirit soul, but because you desire like that, your desire will produce a body like that. So these laws of nature is so subtle, as soon as you desire something to become, "Yes, here it is." So your best service to Kṛṣṇa will be to save these hippies. Somehow or other convince them that best thing, our process is very simple. Somehow or other call them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let them hear and give them prasādam , that's all. You . . . you remain pure, and your purity of service, your association, will influence them. If you remain pure. And then they will gradually come. *All over the world. In India they have become Communists, Naxalites, but I have studied: they are all good souls. Soul always good. Simply they are misguided. Soul cannot be not good, because the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is all*-good; therefore, constitutionally, every soul is good. But by demonic association they become bad. (aside) Accha . Where is that cloth? I forgot. That one Madrasi gentleman get. You put it in this closet. Devotee: I'll put it in that closet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Chambur . Prabhupāda: Chambur . Devotee: Certainly in the. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . that's all. Devotee: I have a question about the position of the devotees now they are living in ISKCON temples. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Just like, when Sai told the devotees that we were all going to be joining ISKCON . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. You live just like my other disciples are living. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then I shall initiate you. That's all. I have given them standard by instruction and by my books. So live according to that, and try to serve Kṛṣṇa by reclaiming these confused souls passing as hippies. That will be great service to the society, to your country and to Kṛṣṇa. Try to save them. Woman devotee: These devotees, already they are living in a very simple . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. Woman devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So issue instruction that treat them very nicely; they are good souls. Immediately issue. Where . . . where . . . wherever they have gone, you issue the letter. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Woman devotee: Śyāmasundara has written I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very—Kṛṣṇa's grace that you have come to us. Because you, somehow or other, you developed a little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given you the opportunity to come to us. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. As soon as He sees a little attachment for Him, immediately gives all facilities. So they are coming to us—another indication that this ISKCON movement is approved by Kṛṣṇa. Those who are sincere, they are coming, they are coming. So keep it very pure, then all of you will be benefited. Yes. He can write to Sai. I will also write. What is address now? Devotee: He's staying at the ISKCON temple, 2016 . . . (indistinct) . . . street Śyāmasundara: He's staying with Gaurasundara and Govinda dāsī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gaurasundara has written? Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That's nice. So I shall one . . . dictate one letter, tomorrow. Immediately post. It is very good that you have come, and we are also pleased. Kṛṣṇa is pleased, everyone is pleased. Yes. The greatest disservice is to misguide. That people are in misery, so*-called rascal leaders and svāmīs , simply they do not know what is the end of life. Simply misguide. Misguiding also . . . people want to be misguided. You see? They want confirmation of their misdeeds. Whatever misdeeds they are doing, they go to somebody, and if it is confirmed, oh, then is good sermon. (laughs) Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. We were in the temple one time, there was so much Sai Baba literature and his testimonial, and the people wanted to do nonsense, and they went to Sai Baba, and he said: "Yes, you can do it," and then they would say: "Yes, Sai Baba said I could drink tea," or whatever. Devotee: So what is our position towards Sai? This is where, brings great confusion in the minds of the devotees. Immediately they ask. Devotee (2): Because they used to accept him as spiritual master, so now, now that's all finished . . . Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (2): . . . so, what is their relationship . . .? Prabhupāda: Let, let Sai accept me as spiritual master, and you remain Sai's disciple, but be initiated properly. Or it is Sai's duty to deliver all his followers to me. That will be very nice. As he has surrendered all his money, similarly, he can surrender all his followers. Devotee (3): It's like in the army. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. And then it is very good—for him and for his followers. Devotee: He wrote this fall about that to the devotees. "Shaved heads. Now we are all disciples of Prabhupāda. I can no longer treat you externally as my disciples, because of the negative reaction I will incur . . . (indistinct) . . . if you are internally attached, that is fine. Please me by serving Prabhupāda and his devotees. Prabhupāda must first okay my taking on disciples. He may or he may not. I will follow his orders. He tells me to kill you all, I will kill you." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Very, very good letter. That's very good. So I shall write to him. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Śikṣā*-guru or dīkṣā-guru . Initiated . . . initiator master and instructor master. So you can treat him as your instructor master. That is allowed. He will understand. I shall write. Now you live as you are living, everything will be pure. So this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and thinking of Kṛṣṇa has made you so much advanced. They are chanting. (laughs) Devotee: They chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. I always indirectly encouraged. I asked Gargamuni (laughing) why he is asking whether we shall supply coat? And why not? They are chanting, why should we not supply? They are purchasing books regular. Why not? So let them associate with our views and ideas. *Devotee: So I was teaching mystical yoga for a long time when I read your books, and I immediately stopped. I was teaching kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , kriyā-yoga , these processes. One day he came from Oahu to the āśrama on Maui, "There'll be no more meditation. From now on just sit and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's nice. That is the . . . Devotee: No more fasting. Prabhupāda: . . . best, best meditation. Very . . . Kṛṣṇa has helped you; now you stick to these principles. Very good. I shall reply this letter. All right. Devotees: (offer obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness method. The more you will sing, the more you will become satisfied. It is very good that you have come. Now combine together. Just save these confused boys. You have got immense work in the Western countries. Immense work. You write Sai. He is very intelligent boy. You are also intelligent boy. Combine together. And the plan is very simple. Somehow or other call them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give prasādam , that's all. (break) (end) Interview -- May 14, 1971, Sydney Prabhupāda: . . . (laughs) And just to see my disciples here, center. They have got a center here. So for them I visit my centers all over the world. So for that purpose I have come, as well as to let you know more about our philosophy, if you are interested. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about it, please? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to give the human society a chance for solving all the problems of their life. In the present context of civilization they are interested in the bodily comforts. Whatever scientific advancement you are making, just to give more comfort to the body. Unfortunately, none of us is the body. We are spirit soul. We are changing different bodies, as you can see in our presence there are so many living entities, and this body can be changed to any one of them. Today I am in human body, tomorrow I may be in the body of a dog. So this cycle of changing body is going on. The modern science has no knowledge about these things. They are simply identifying with the body. So according to Vedic civilization, anyone who is identifying with the body is not a human being; he is an ass. Go means cow and kharaḥ means ass. Such a person is either a cow or an ass who is identifying this body as self. This body is a bag of bones and flesh, blood and urine. So I am not this body. I am within this body. But people are identifying with this body. So this is the grossest type of ignorance, and we are trying to dissipate this ignorance and bring people to real consciousness, real identity. And that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: Now you mentioned some particular problems . . . (indistinct) . . . people with, and then you spoke of a general problem of the body as opposed to the spiritual. Prabhupāda: Well, when the particular problem is this repeated . . . change of body, there is no science or university. Everyone wants to lead the medical science. It is time to give greatest relief from disease, but they cannot stop disease or death. That is the problem. Although the problem is there, they are trying to solve, but they have no means. Here is the means. Interviewer: You mean, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the means. There are prominent problems: birth, death, old age and disease. There is no science which has solved these problems. Nobody wants to die, but death is there. They are trying to stop increase of population, birth but the birth is there. And the medical science is giving us good medicine but they cannot stop disease, neither death. These are the problems. Why they are neglecting these problems? What is their remedy for these problems? Is there any remedy for these four things? Interviewer: Then what can Kṛṣṇa consciousness do about that? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a great science one has to learn, how to make these problems solved. But here is the medicine, or here is the solution for all these problems. Interviewer: But how can Kṛṣṇa consciousness solve them? Prabhupāda: How, that is . . . one has to learn it. We say how one becomes passed M.A. examination? That is not a thing to be learned in half an hour or fifteen minutes. There is a science; you have to undergo training, as these these boys and girls are going under training. You have to come to us; you have to try to learn what is the subject matter, and you have to undergo the process. But from the examples . . . Or we have got volumes of books written on this matter, so you have to learn from those books. You have to undergo practical training, and then you will learn how to. It is not such a trifle question that in ten minute interview I can explain. Interviewer: Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness sort of achieved after a period through application and study? Prabhupāda: No. It is simply agreement. The process begins—to accept God first of all and to surrender to God. But nobody is prepared to surrender to God, neither they are prepared to accept God. That is the difficulty. But as soon as one accepts that there is God, God is there and I am subordinate, and my business is to surrender unto Him, then immediately he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that is not very easy thing; people will not agree to this. Therefore training required, association required. But the method is so simple it can be achieved in one second. But that nobody is accepting that method. But if one accepts, that method will be a business of one minute. It is not difficult. God is there, that's a fact—you are here, that's a fact. But the surrender is not there. And to come to the surrendering point requires training, agreement. Interviewer: Are you happy with the way the mission's going in Australia, the center? Devotee: (explaining question) "Are you happy with the way the mission is going in Australia, our activities?" Prabhupāda: Well, after all, this is a difficult job, because to accept God or to know God, that is very difficult job. Out of many thousands of people are anxious, one may be very much anxious to know what is the highest perfection of life. And those who have attained the perfection of life, out of many thousands of them, one may know what is God actually. So to know God actually is not a very easy job. So those who are coming to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are very fortunate, because they are not in the category of ordinary men. They are serious to know about God. Therefore you cannot find in our group many thousands of people, only selected, fortunate people. So . . . but anyone can become fortunate, provided he agrees that, "There is God, and I must submit to God." That's not . . . but that mentality is very rare to be found. It has to be created. Therefore you will find not very many followers of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But one who is following he is very fortunate. Interviewer: How many centers are there altogether, then? How many have you opened personally, yourself? *Devotee: Fifty*-two. Interviewer: You've opened all of them? Devotee: Yes. Interviewer: I see. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-two outside India, but in India there are many thousands. Interviewer: I see. And what specifically will you do in Australia? How long will you be here for, and what will you do while you are here? Prabhupāda: Well, I am going from Australia day after tomorrow. I simply came to see my disciples, how they are doing; to give them direction, further direction to improve. That's all. But if the Australian people like to hear me, I invite any scientist, any philosopher to understand. But I don't think they are interested. Interviewer: Why do you suppose that is? Prabhupāda: What is that? Interviewer: Why do you suppose they are not interested? Prabhupāda: Because they are too much materially involved with this bodily concept. They think this body is everything. Therefore we must give. Just like I went to the beach: many young men, they were stout and strong, walking, running. They are interested in this body. They are not interested in the spiritual subject matter. That is the training they have got. Nobody is interested. We are creating interest on behalf of God. That is our business. We are servant of God. We are trying to save people from the cycle of repetition of birth and death in different varieties or species of life. But even the great scientists, great philosophers they do not want to understand this science. What can we do? Interviewer: Have you found this attitude also in other areas that you have opened centers? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they are interested, how we have opened so many centers? There are interested persons, but their number is very little. It is not that zero, but many persons are interested. We are selling our books. We are selling our magazines. We are recruiting members, and they are dedicating their life for this cause. But it is not like a political movement, that you speak some jugglery of words and many thousands of people come and join. It is a great science. Only cool*-headed, fortunate men can understand. Interviewer: Tell me, you talk about the spiritual and how we have neglected this with our emphasis on material things, but what place is there for the material things? Prabhupāda: We are not neglecting material. Just like you are taking care of your body, I am also taking care of my body. But the difference is that I am not thinking that I am this body, but others, they are thinking that they are this body. That is the problem. Just like if you are taking service from your car, so you don't identify yourself with the car. But you take care of the car to take service from it. Similarly, we are taking service from this body because we are living, so I must eat or I must sleep. It is not that we are not eating or not sleeping, but our eating is different from ordinary eating. We discriminate eating. We don't eat so many things. We simply eat things which may keep my body just fit for understanding and executing this mission of life. That's all. *Let's take for example we don't take meat, we don't take eggs, fish, we don't take liquor or any sorts of intoxicants, even up to the cigarette, coffee, tea, because we know these things are superfluous. Nobody learns to smoke from the beginning of life, but the child requires to eat something. That's a fact. But it doesn't require to smoke. So these are artificial things. So we have to minimize the non*-necessary things. Interviewer: But does the child, for example, require to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Every human being is given the chance by nature's way. You are given this human form of body, civilized man with developed consciousness, to understand these problems of your life. The animals cannot understand. You have come here because you are human being. The dog is not coming, the cat is not coming, because they are animals. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for the human being. So every human being not only shall take care of this body but should take care of his problems, because he is eternal—he is changing body after body, and that is very botheration, and there is no guarantee what sort of body you are going to get next. Even if you are going to get body next life, you must have a better body. Or the best thing is that you must have an eternal body. If such solution is there, why the human society should neglect it? That is their foolishness. So we are trying to give this information to the human society, but they are so callous, they are so bodily conscious, they are not very much serious about it. Interviewer: Thank you . . . (break) Prabhupāda: The child is changing body to boy. The boy is changing his body to youth. But young man does not like to change his body to old age. Rather, the old man wants to come back to his youthful ages. (break) So similarly, nobody wants to die, to change this body also, but that is being forced. But they do not take it as problem. How nonsense they are. I did not want to change my body from youthful to this old age, neither I want to give up this body. Even a very old man, the doctor says that, "It is hopeless now," but still they have to find out some medicine to save him. Just see. This is the danger, that I don't want this; still they do not think it as problem. Such a foolish civilization. I don't want old age, I don't want die, but death is forced upon me, old age is forced, and there is no solution, and they are declaring themselves as scientists, philosophers, advanced. They are avoiding the major problem, and still their problem is civilization, advancement of knowledge. Just see their stupidity. There is a problem, big problem, and they cannot solve it, and still they are proud of their advancement of knowledge. How much foolish they are, just consider. And we have to deal with all these rascals and fools, so there must be hard labor. Because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. Success or failure, that's not our business. Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." We have to preach this cult. We surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, and you be saved from the problems of your life. That is our business. They may not hear it—that is up to them—but as servant of Kṛṣṇa we have to push on this movement. Devotee: If they are hearing, Srila Prabhupada. Somehow or other they are hearing. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, any sane man will hear. But the major portion of the so*-called leaders in the society, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . and still they are proud. They cannot make a solution, and still they are very much proud of their education, their social status. Just see the illusion. Devotee: World of names. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: World of names. Prabhupāda: What can be done? But we have to do our business, despite all hindrances, all obstacles, because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the thing. We have to remain faithful to our master. We don't mind whether ones taking this philosophy or not, that doesn't matter. We have to try our best. But as soon as this service is done with some selfish motive, personal interest, then it is spoilt. Then it is spoilt. Devotee: Our success is our surrender, and not our . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Our success is our surrender. Prabhupāda: Sometimes we get honor. Just like I have become spiritual master; I am getting honor, I am getting respect. But if I want to utilize your service for my personal comfort and do not actually preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I am another fool. That's all. But as soon as you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, your business is done. My business is to introduce you to Kṛṣṇa, to convince you some way or other that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you surrender unto Him and you will be happy. That is my business. Devotee: Thank you very much for dragging me back. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that business I must do, and I have dedicated my life for that business. That is my interest. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu . . . (BG 18.69). Kṛṣṇa said: "Anyone who is trying to introduce this philosophy to My devotees, he is My great . . . dear to Me." So in order to become recognized by Kṛṣṇa, it is my duty to do my best to introduce as many persons as possible to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I give you the information. I don't say that, "You surrender unto me," but I say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender to My devotee." Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa is very kind. Kṛṣṇa is very obliged. Kṛṣṇa, if you render service to Kṛṣṇa one percent, He is willing to give you protection fifty percent. That is Kṛṣṇa. He is great. Just like a great man, if you give him little service, he rewards you more than you expect. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa? He is the greatest of all. If you give Him little service, He gives you more than you expect. That is a fact. But not that because He will give me something more than expectation I am giving service. That mentality is not good. I should render my service in all circumstances, without any expectation of profit or return. A pure devotee does not ask any return from Kṛṣṇa. Rather, a pure devotee refuses, even if he is offered by Kṛṣṇa, because that will be business, that I do something for some return. Prahlāda Mahārāja flatly refused in the presence of Nṛsiṁhadeva. "Sir, You are . . . we are so prone to accept this material benediction, and Your great personality is offering. So this is a great allurement. Kindly save me. I am not a merchandise man, that I want something from You." That was his answer. He refused. You see? God wanted to give him something and he refused, and He was pleased, "Oh, here is My real servant." But He was given everything, but by his that refusal, He was very much pleased. Not that He was offended, "Oh, I am offering, and you are not accepting?" No. He was very much pleased. Devotee: And . . . (indistinct) . . . with each other. Prabhupāda: "Here is a real servant." That is the reciprocation between devotee and Kṛṣṇa. And devotee does not require anything. Why it shall be? Kṛṣṇa gives him all protection. Why should we bother Him, "Now give me protection"? My asking Him protection is the greatest job? No. If He wants to give me protection, without asking He will do that. Why should I ask Him and make my position degraded? The devotee never asks to Kṛṣṇa anything. He simply asks for the opportunity to serve His servant. Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "Give me opportunity to serve Your servant." He doesn't want to serve Him directly. Devotee: What was it that that Lord Caitanya was saying? How does that go in Sanskrit? That He's a servant . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Caitanya as a teacher, He is teaching us that gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80): "I am a servant of the servant of the servant of the master of the gopīs, the maintainer of the gopīs." Kṛṣṇa is never directly approached. (break) . . . break, and one day death comes and kicks on his back and he will be finished off. Now if you are so brain, just try to save yourself. Where is your brain? Or make another brain like you, so that at the time of your death the brain will act—upon your brain . . . (indistinct) . . . he is dependent on God, Kṛṣṇa. Still, he'll not agree. Kṛṣṇa will come as death. He may come, just He is death. Kṛṣṇa says, "To such rascals I come as death." Then they will believe that there is God. *(break) So far . . . so far we are concerned, they are as good as an ordinary man, because they do not know actually the real problem of life. But they are puffed*-up, "Oh, we are . . . (indistinct) . . ." *(break) . . . problems of life, then your science is perfect. Simply jugglery*-of-words theories, what will help? Stop death, stop birth, stop disease, stop old age, then I shall understand that your scientist. That is not in your command. If the problems are there, real problem, then what is the use of this science? Simply by advertisement? *So*-called comfortable life for few years, and then becoming a dog and hog, a tree? It is possibility. If your next life you become a tree, you stand up for ten thousand years in one place. Would you like? In childhood the teacher says: "Stand up on the bench," that was so much troublesome. (break) (end) Interview -- May 14, 1971, Sydney Prabhupāda: . . . (laughs) And just to see my disciples here, center. They have got a center here. So for them I visit my centers all over the world. So for that purpose I have come, as well as to let you know more about our philosophy, if you are interested. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about it, please? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to give the human society a chance for solving all the problems of their life. In the present context of civilization they are interested in the bodily comforts. Whatever scientific advancement you are making, just to give more comfort to the body. Unfortunately, none of us is the body. We are spirit soul. We are changing different bodies, as you can see in our presence there are so many living entities, and this body can be changed to any one of them. Today I am in human body, tomorrow I may be in the body of a dog. So this cycle of changing body is going on. The modern science has no knowledge about these things. They are simply identifying with the body. So according to Vedic civilization, anyone who is identifying with the body is not a human being; he is an ass. Go means cow and kharaḥ means ass. Such a person is either a cow or an ass who is identifying this body as self. This body is a bag of bones and flesh, blood and urine. So I am not this body. I am within this body. But people are identifying with this body. So this is the grossest type of ignorance, and we are trying to dissipate this ignorance and bring people to real consciousness, real identity. And that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: Now you mentioned some particular problems . . . (indistinct) . . . people with, and then you spoke of a general problem of the body as opposed to the spiritual. Prabhupāda: Well, when the particular problem is this repeated . . . change of body, there is no science or university. Everyone wants to lead the medical science. It is time to give greatest relief from disease, but they cannot stop disease or death. That is the problem. Although the problem is there, they are trying to solve, but they have no means. Here is the means. Interviewer: You mean, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the means. There are prominent problems: birth, death, old age and disease. There is no science which has solved these problems. Nobody wants to die, but death is there. They are trying to stop increase of population, birth but the birth is there. And the medical science is giving us good medicine but they cannot stop disease, neither death. These are the problems. Why they are neglecting these problems? What is their remedy for these problems? Is there any remedy for these four things? Interviewer: Then what can Kṛṣṇa consciousness do about that? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a great science one has to learn, how to make these problems solved. But here is the medicine, or here is the solution for all these problems. Interviewer: But how can Kṛṣṇa consciousness solve them? Prabhupāda: How, that is . . . one has to learn it. We say how one becomes passed M.A. examination? That is not a thing to be learned in half an hour or fifteen minutes. There is a science; you have to undergo training, as these these boys and girls are going under training. You have to come to us; you have to try to learn what is the subject matter, and you have to undergo the process. But from the examples . . . Or we have got volumes of books written on this matter, so you have to learn from those books. You have to undergo practical training, and then you will learn how to. It is not such a trifle question that in ten minute interview I can explain. Interviewer: Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness sort of achieved after a period through application and study? Prabhupāda: No. It is simply agreement. The process begins—to accept God first of all and to surrender to God. But nobody is prepared to surrender to God, neither they are prepared to accept God. That is the difficulty. But as soon as one accepts that there is God, God is there and I am subordinate, and my business is to surrender unto Him, then immediately he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that is not very easy thing; people will not agree to this. Therefore training required, association required. But the method is so simple it can be achieved in one second. But that nobody is accepting that method. But if one accepts, that method will be a business of one minute. It is not difficult. God is there, that's a fact—you are here, that's a fact. But the surrender is not there. And to come to the surrendering point requires training, agreement. Interviewer: Are you happy with the way the mission's going in Australia, the center? Devotee: (explaining question) "Are you happy with the way the mission is going in Australia, our activities?" Prabhupāda: Well, after all, this is a difficult job, because to accept God or to know God, that is very difficult job. Out of many thousands of people are anxious, one may be very much anxious to know what is the highest perfection of life. And those who have attained the perfection of life, out of many thousands of them, one may know what is God actually. So to know God actually is not a very easy job. So those who are coming to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are very fortunate, because they are not in the category of ordinary men. They are serious to know about God. Therefore you cannot find in our group many thousands of people, only selected, fortunate people. So . . . but anyone can become fortunate, provided he agrees that, "There is God, and I must submit to God." That's not . . . but that mentality is very rare to be found. It has to be created. Therefore you will find not very many followers of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But one who is following he is very fortunate. Interviewer: How many centers are there altogether, then? How many have you opened personally, yourself? *Devotee: Fifty*-two. Interviewer: You've opened all of them? Devotee: Yes. Interviewer: I see. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-two outside India, but in India there are many thousands. Interviewer: I see. And what specifically will you do in Australia? How long will you be here for, and what will you do while you are here? Prabhupāda: Well, I am going from Australia day after tomorrow. I simply came to see my disciples, how they are doing; to give them direction, further direction to improve. That's all. But if the Australian people like to hear me, I invite any scientist, any philosopher to understand. But I don't think they are interested. Interviewer: Why do you suppose that is? Prabhupāda: What is that? Interviewer: Why do you suppose they are not interested? Prabhupāda: Because they are too much materially involved with this bodily concept. They think this body is everything. Therefore we must give. Just like I went to the beach: many young men, they were stout and strong, walking, running. They are interested in this body. They are not interested in the spiritual subject matter. That is the training they have got. Nobody is interested. We are creating interest on behalf of God. That is our business. We are servant of God. We are trying to save people from the cycle of repetition of birth and death in different varieties or species of life. But even the great scientists, great philosophers they do not want to understand this science. What can we do? Interviewer: Have you found this attitude also in other areas that you have opened centers? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they are interested, how we have opened so many centers? There are interested persons, but their number is very little. It is not that zero, but many persons are interested. We are selling our books. We are selling our magazines. We are recruiting members, and they are dedicating their life for this cause. But it is not like a political movement, that you speak some jugglery of words and many thousands of people come and join. It is a great science. Only cool*-headed, fortunate men can understand. Interviewer: Tell me, you talk about the spiritual and how we have neglected this with our emphasis on material things, but what place is there for the material things? Prabhupāda: We are not neglecting material. Just like you are taking care of your body, I am also taking care of my body. But the difference is that I am not thinking that I am this body, but others, they are thinking that they are this body. That is the problem. Just like if you are taking service from your car, so you don't identify yourself with the car. But you take care of the car to take service from it. Similarly, we are taking service from this body because we are living, so I must eat or I must sleep. It is not that we are not eating or not sleeping, but our eating is different from ordinary eating. We discriminate eating. We don't eat so many things. We simply eat things which may keep my body just fit for understanding and executing this mission of life. That's all. *Let's take for example we don't take meat, we don't take eggs, fish, we don't take liquor or any sorts of intoxicants, even up to the cigarette, coffee, tea, because we know these things are superfluous. Nobody learns to smoke from the beginning of life, but the child requires to eat something. That's a fact. But it doesn't require to smoke. So these are artificial things. So we have to minimize the non*-necessary things. Interviewer: But does the child, for example, require to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Every human being is given the chance by nature's way. You are given this human form of body, civilized man with developed consciousness, to understand these problems of your life. The animals cannot understand. You have come here because you are human being. The dog is not coming, the cat is not coming, because they are animals. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for the human being. So every human being not only shall take care of this body but should take care of his problems, because he is eternal—he is changing body after body, and that is very botheration, and there is no guarantee what sort of body you are going to get next. Even if you are going to get body next life, you must have a better body. Or the best thing is that you must have an eternal body. If such solution is there, why the human society should neglect it? That is their foolishness. So we are trying to give this information to the human society, but they are so callous, they are so bodily conscious, they are not very much serious about it. Interviewer: Thank you . . . (break) Prabhupāda: The child is changing body to boy. The boy is changing his body to youth. But young man does not like to change his body to old age. Rather, the old man wants to come back to his youthful ages. (break) So similarly, nobody wants to die, to change this body also, but that is being forced. But they do not take it as problem. How nonsense they are. I did not want to change my body from youthful to this old age, neither I want to give up this body. Even a very old man, the doctor says that, "It is hopeless now," but still they have to find out some medicine to save him. Just see. This is the danger, that I don't want this; still they do not think it as problem. Such a foolish civilization. I don't want old age, I don't want die, but death is forced upon me, old age is forced, and there is no solution, and they are declaring themselves as scientists, philosophers, advanced. They are avoiding the major problem, and still their problem is civilization, advancement of knowledge. Just see their stupidity. There is a problem, big problem, and they cannot solve it, and still they are proud of their advancement of knowledge. How much foolish they are, just consider. And we have to deal with all these rascals and fools, so there must be hard labor. Because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. Success or failure, that's not our business. Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." We have to preach this cult. We surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, and you be saved from the problems of your life. That is our business. They may not hear it—that is up to them—but as servant of Kṛṣṇa we have to push on this movement. Devotee: If they are hearing, Srila Prabhupada. Somehow or other they are hearing. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, any sane man will hear. But the major portion of the so*-called leaders in the society, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . and still they are proud. They cannot make a solution, and still they are very much proud of their education, their social status. Just see the illusion. Devotee: World of names. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: World of names. Prabhupāda: What can be done? But we have to do our business, despite all hindrances, all obstacles, because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the thing. We have to remain faithful to our master. We don't mind whether ones taking this philosophy or not, that doesn't matter. We have to try our best. But as soon as this service is done with some selfish motive, personal interest, then it is spoilt. Then it is spoilt. Devotee: Our success is our surrender, and not our . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Our success is our surrender. Prabhupāda: Sometimes we get honor. Just like I have become spiritual master; I am getting honor, I am getting respect. But if I want to utilize your service for my personal comfort and do not actually preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I am another fool. That's all. But as soon as you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, your business is done. My business is to introduce you to Kṛṣṇa, to convince you some way or other that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you surrender unto Him and you will be happy. That is my business. Devotee: Thank you very much for dragging me back. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that business I must do, and I have dedicated my life for that business. That is my interest. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu . . . (BG 18.69). Kṛṣṇa said: "Anyone who is trying to introduce this philosophy to My devotees, he is My great . . . dear to Me." So in order to become recognized by Kṛṣṇa, it is my duty to do my best to introduce as many persons as possible to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I give you the information. I don't say that, "You surrender unto me," but I say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender to My devotee." Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa is very kind. Kṛṣṇa is very obliged. Kṛṣṇa, if you render service to Kṛṣṇa one percent, He is willing to give you protection fifty percent. That is Kṛṣṇa. He is great. Just like a great man, if you give him little service, he rewards you more than you expect. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa? He is the greatest of all. If you give Him little service, He gives you more than you expect. That is a fact. But not that because He will give me something more than expectation I am giving service. That mentality is not good. I should render my service in all circumstances, without any expectation of profit or return. A pure devotee does not ask any return from Kṛṣṇa. Rather, a pure devotee refuses, even if he is offered by Kṛṣṇa, because that will be business, that I do something for some return. Prahlāda Mahārāja flatly refused in the presence of Nṛsiṁhadeva. "Sir, You are . . . we are so prone to accept this material benediction, and Your great personality is offering. So this is a great allurement. Kindly save me. I am not a merchandise man, that I want something from You." That was his answer. He refused. You see? God wanted to give him something and he refused, and He was pleased, "Oh, here is My real servant." But He was given everything, but by his that refusal, He was very much pleased. Not that He was offended, "Oh, I am offering, and you are not accepting?" No. He was very much pleased. Devotee: And . . . (indistinct) . . . with each other. Prabhupāda: "Here is a real servant." That is the reciprocation between devotee and Kṛṣṇa. And devotee does not require anything. Why it shall be? Kṛṣṇa gives him all protection. Why should we bother Him, "Now give me protection"? My asking Him protection is the greatest job? No. If He wants to give me protection, without asking He will do that. Why should I ask Him and make my position degraded? The devotee never asks to Kṛṣṇa anything. He simply asks for the opportunity to serve His servant. Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "Give me opportunity to serve Your servant." He doesn't want to serve Him directly. Devotee: What was it that that Lord Caitanya was saying? How does that go in Sanskrit? That He's a servant . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Caitanya as a teacher, He is teaching us that gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80): "I am a servant of the servant of the servant of the master of the gopīs, the maintainer of the gopīs." Kṛṣṇa is never directly approached. (break) . . . break, and one day death comes and kicks on his back and he will be finished off. Now if you are so brain, just try to save yourself. Where is your brain? Or make another brain like you, so that at the time of your death the brain will act—upon your brain . . . (indistinct) . . . he is dependent on God, Kṛṣṇa. Still, he'll not agree. Kṛṣṇa will come as death. He may come, just He is death. Kṛṣṇa says, "To such rascals I come as death." Then they will believe that there is God. *(break) So far . . . so far we are concerned, they are as good as an ordinary man, because they do not know actually the real problem of life. But they are puffed*-up, "Oh, we are . . . (indistinct) . . ." *(break) . . . problems of life, then your science is perfect. Simply jugglery*-of-words theories, what will help? Stop death, stop birth, stop disease, stop old age, then I shall understand that your scientist. That is not in your command. If the problems are there, real problem, then what is the use of this science? Simply by advertisement? *So*-called comfortable life for few years, and then becoming a dog and hog, a tree? It is possibility. If your next life you become a tree, you stand up for ten thousand years in one place. Would you like? In childhood the teacher says: "Stand up on the bench," that was so much troublesome. (break) (end) Radio Interview -- June 0, 1971, Los Angeles *Interviewer: . . . India, the headquarters in the United States and the world is now Los Angeles, California. His Divine Grace comes to us, a svāmī from Calcutta in India, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as it is known in this country, and I understand in one hundred other places in the non*-Communist world at this point, is a movement to cleanse the soul and make life on earth, as our guest would tell us, a more peaceful way of living. These people believe in reincarnation and many other philosophies, and as many of our listeners will know, it is also a very controversial movement. We will start for fourteen, fifteen minutes, and take it from there. I will hold the microphone back and forth. Jim, please. Now since I am not capable of pronouncing your Kṛṣṇa name, I want you to . . . I will introduce you as Your Divine Grace, and what I said here, that is for the producer. Words to that effect. And then I will ask you to give me your name as the head of this movement. Was there anyone before you that was in the Kṛṣṇa movement? Do you . . . are you succeeding someone? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a disciplic succession. Interviewer: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Disciplic succession. Interviewer: No, but before you? Prabhupāda: Yes, before me, my spiritual master was preaching. Interviewer: Oh, all right, I will ask you that. Your spiritual master was this name? Okay. Prabhupāda: My spiritual master, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Interviewer: And was he also from Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Interviewer: I see, okay. Syamasundara: The disciplic succession means that it goes back for thousands of years, passed down from master to disciple. Interviewer: How long would you say that the movement has been in existence for? Syamasundara: Five thousand years. Interviewer: Hm! Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, when He spoke Bhagavad*-gītā . *Interviewer: All right. I’ll try to be very careful, and we will do it. When I start. For more than five thousand years in this world of ours there has been a movement emanating from India known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We have come to speak with His Divine Grace, the man that is the disciple, a descendant of many that preceded him in the Kṛṣṇa movement. He comes to us from Calcutta. In North America in Los Angeles is now the world headquarters for the Kṛṣṇa movement. Hare Kṛṣṇa, as many of our listeners know, is somewhat of a controversial form of belief or religion or philosophy, because on the streets of America and many other the cities of the world, they give their chant, and they speak to the passer*-by, trying to convince and tell them about what they are chanting about, what they believe in, and their philosophy. So His Divine Grace will be our guest for the next few minutes as we chat with him here at this location and will tell us as much as he can about his beliefs and philosophy. Your Divine Grace, you come to us from Calcutta, and at this point in time you are on your way back to your home city, and having visited many cities in America and your world headquarters in Los Angeles, California. I thought if you will, please tell our listeners throughout this country, this USA, about yourself, and I would like first perhaps to start with the question: help me with your name, in the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami. Interviewer: And of course, that means the . . . your name, but of course you are a svāmī , which is a counterpart to the highest form of disciple there could be. Prabhupāda: Yes, svāmī means the master of senses. Generally people, they are servant of senses. So when one becomes '' svāmī , it means he is master of the senses. Interviewer: Now as the head of the Kṛṣṇa movement here on earth at this time, we understand that you follow many others—as we said at the outset, this is thousands of years old, emanating in India. So you are then, for all practical purposes, one in many directing this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, I am one of them. From Kṛṣṇa there are many disciples’ branches. Just as the original tree, and then there are branches, there are twigs, leaves, flowers. Similarly we have expanded in various places. And I was ordered by my spiritual master to come to the Western world. So I came first in New York and started this movement in 1966. Since then, it has spread all over the world. Interviewer: Yet the work of Kṛṣṇa is being better known throughout America today. Would you say that since 1966 here in America you have gained more favor than we’ll say disfavor in the Press; that the average person that does not know about the work? Prabhupāda: No, I have been favorably received, even by Christian priests. They also like me, because I am spreading God consciousness. Interviewer: In the work of Kṛṣṇa we understand that not only are you people vegetarians, you believe in legal marriage, you believe in the home and family. There are many other principles. Would you outline for practical purposes what the Kṛṣṇa movement really is? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa movement is really meant for making the human society a divine culture. Interviewer: Yes, but it goes we understand it is from within; the movement itself helps, we understand, cleanse the soul and make we on earth ready for our next dimension. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is compulsory. You believe or not believe, as you have changed so many bodies from your babyhood to childhood to boyhood to youth*-hood, then old-aged man, then naturally next life is when this body is finished, you get another body and begin your life. Interviewer: And it does not necessarily mean that you return as a human being today. You might return as an animal or some other subject. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are 8,400,000 species of life. So according to your desire and according to your activities, you get your next life. That is completely in the hands of nature. Interviewer: The movement of nature, as you just pointed out, Your Divine Grace, would indicate then that you place your hands in Kṛṣṇa, which in a counterpart in the Christian world is a . . . is much like Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, Jesus came, appeared, as the son of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa appeared as the Supreme Person, God, Himself. *Interviewer: One of the things that strikes us as a very important point that you can, I am sure, clarify: Why is it that the Kṛṣṇa movement goes to the public in the form of street chants and . . . why do you not let the movement grow from the so*-called conventional type of religion? Prabhupāda: Because people are so much forgetful of Kṛṣṇa, or God. They require to be reminded, and this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is transcendental vibration. If we chant on the street or loudly, whoever hears this sound, he becomes purified, cleansed of the dirty things from his heart. And therefore we go and chant so that others may hear and make cleansed their heart. Interviewer: Well, in today’s world of merchandising any product, as it were, whether it be religion or any other tangible thing, you certainly excel as far as being vocal. I imagine that throughout America and other places in the world it’s a controversial method that you have problems with. Prabhupāda: I do not accept this problem. Interviewer: Well, what I’m saying, Your Divine Grace, is that when you do chant, and when you do have your disciples and students on the street approaching the person that knows nothing about the movement, you are criticized. Prabhupāda: They may criticize; everything new is criticized. But as we have seen, all these American boys, European boys, they have come to me. In the beginning they also criticized, but by hearing, hearing again and again, they have become my disciples. *Interviewer: Yes, you have many disciples, and we understand that by and large those that are disciples that have graduated from student*-hood are by and large a young generation. Yours truly and many others in middle age are not attracted perhaps as much as the younger soul. *Prabhupāda: Because middle*-aged, old men, they’re more sophisticated, and young man, young boys and girls, they are more receptive. Interviewer: Would you say, then, the young mind is more susceptible or capable of changing his mode of life? We know for one instance one disciple that you have was cleansed of his use of drugs, and that’s a point that we want to talk about. In other words, a younger person is capable of the transition. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is in every case; therefore education is given in younger ages, not in old ages. I have got experience that in an examination, a father and his young girl appeared. The young girl passed, and the father failed. Therefore the young age is the proper time for taking education. Interviewer: Now in your case you are of at least seventy years in this earth form. We understand the path that you’re trodding here on earth as a svāmī , as a head of the Kṛṣṇa movement, not only in America but throughout the world. Do you feel that your life has been completely dedicated from the very outset? Were you born into the Kṛṣṇa, or did you . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was born in a family of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My father was a great devotee, and from my childhood he trained me. I got the opportunity for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning of my life. Interviewer: So this has been your lifestyle all these years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Now, we understand, Your Divine Grace, that at this point in time, you as the titular or the actual head of the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, you have no successor when you move into another dimension; that from the masses, from the disciples that you have throughout the world, someone will rise to take your place when you move to another world? Prabhupāda: Not someone, but so many, because I am teaching all the students to work in future. I may die, but the movement will go on, because all these young boys and girls, they are complete in knowledge of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So it cannot be stopped. Interviewer: Oh, no! No, no, we did not mean that it would be stopped or cease at any given time, but someone will succeed you. But you say many will. Prabhupāda: No, why someone? Many will succeed. Interviewer: Yes. Now, the growth of the movement in America, as you have indicated, is very great, very rapid. What would you attribute this most to? The enthusiasm? Or how do you feel it . . . why is it growing? Prabhupāda: Yes, amongst my students the enthusiasm is very nice. So I expect that each one of them will be future preachers. Interviewer: A teacher, or did you say . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, teacher and preacher, both. Interviewer: And you use the words preacher as well as teacher? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Well, of course one on the outside does not always understand or can comprehend the many facets of what the Kṛṣṇa movement is, because as one that does not know, we must be objective, and in doing that perhaps you can tell our listeners some of the things that might be attractive to listen to the person that is approached to the next time on the street in a given city. Prabhupāda: Yes, people . . . (aside) Give all these books. We have got about dozens of books on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So we invite educated class men—philosophers, scientists, politicians—to study this movement. Why they should remain apart from this movement? It is a nice movement, it is meant for correcting the mistake of the human society. They should be interested. They should read our books and understand. *Interviewer: By and large, we understand that the movement of Kṛṣṇa is a passive form of religion, and that it is one that is from within. Would you say that you are non*-political and non-violent? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. We are non*-political. We are not, I mean to say, stagnant; we are progressive, and it is exactly what you mean by religion. It is not exactly religion; it is a culture. It is a culture, divine culture: how to make every human being a divine man. There are two classes of men, one is called—according to Vedic literature—one is called a demon, and the other is called demigod. So anyone who is not perfectly cultured, he is called demon. And one who is perfectly cultured, he is called a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, or a demigod. And human life is meant for understanding what he is, what is to know, what is God, what is his relationship with God, what is this material world, why one has come here, where he will go. These things are actually enquiries of the human life, and they should be satisfied. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are not exactly interested with the animal way of life. Animal way of life means the animal is interested only in four things: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. If human civilization is based on these four principles only, then it is another name of animal life. So we should go beyond animal life, try to understand the value of life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Interviewer: Then your belief centers around the fact that a human being on earth has more than the so*-called creature comforts of life—the mating, the sleeping, the eating. Prabhupāda: Yes, comfortable sleeping, that is a mental concoction, because, perhaps when one sleeps he may dream so many horrible things, or he may not have very nice sleep. But a dog sleeping on the street, he may have very sound sleep. So by improving the condition of sleep does not mean advancement of civilization. *Interviewer: We are having an in*-depth chat with the man that is the head of the Kṛṣṇa movement, originating originally of course in India, now with its world headquarters in Los Angeles, California, growing by leaps and bounds at least throughout the USA—the movement that many of our listeners will soon identify at the close of our broadcast when we will have the vibrations cast off by some of the disciples that are here with us at this interview time. Many people involved with the Kṛṣṇa movement . . . that are not involved with the Kṛṣṇa movement have no idea, perhaps, what this organization, this religion, this philosophy, stands for, and so we have come here to speak with His Divine Grace on the feeling and his thoughts about the Kṛṣṇa movement. Now when you make the chant on the streets, they say "Hare" Kṛṣṇa, and we understand that that means "Hail to God." Prabhupāda: Yes, we address. "Hare" means the energy of Kṛṣṇa, God. Two things are working: Kṛṣṇa is working through His energies. Just like the sun planet, it is working through its energy, the sunshine. Similarly, God is also working through His different energies. So this material manifestation is also creation of His energy. So we are addressing the energy of Lord, that is "Hare," and we are addressing Kṛṣṇa, the Lord, or Rāma, the Lord. Addressing means offering something or enquiring something or asking something—addressing. If I say "Jim," that means I am addressing for some purpose. So this is address, Hare Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, the energy of Lord. Oh, the Lord. Please again take me in Your association from this material condition of life." This is the purpose of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Interviewer: When you define it, Your Divine Grace, it seems rather simple, wherein some people feel perhaps your movement is more complex than you simplified. We feel that our listeners should know, research gives us the information that the Kṛṣṇa movement is free of the drug culture. There is no use of this in the organization whatsoever. There is complete harmony in the life of marriage and the raising of children, and there are many other ramifications . . . Prabhupāda: No intoxication. Interviewer: . . . and no intoxication. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eating. Interviewer: And I will let you continue, Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling. These are the four principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Interviewer: When a student—being very realistic—when a student or an average person, whether he be an Englishman or a Frenchman or an American, decides that he would like to investigate the movement, does he come to one of your temples in any given city? Is he free to enter and go and learn without any restrictions? Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone can live with us; he is welcome. We have got sufficient place to give him accommodation, according to our capacity. We give him free boarding and lodgings and give him chance to live with us, to study our books, to study our movement, to hear us, to question us. All these facilities are offered to anyone who comes to us. Interviewer: We understand also that your disciples or your students live in what is commonly known as a "commune," but it is, as you have already indicated, as ethical as it can possibly be. Prabhupāda: Commune? What do you mean by commune? Interviewer: When you have your students and your disciples living in one . . . one building. I mean it is divided for the men and the women. Prabhupāda: Yes, because we do not allow illicit sex life. Therefore we advise those who are not married, the boys may live separate from the girls, so the girls may live separate from the boys—unless they are married. Interviewer: Yes, and we have already indicated earlier in our broadcast that the members of the Kṛṣṇa movement that do enter into matrimony are done so legally in that state or country where the laws they abide by. Now I think it would be interesting as we’ve woven a story about you and the movement of Kṛṣṇa, we would like, perhaps, if you will, in your own voice, give us somewhat of a personal life story as to some of the things you feel that you have accomplished in your years on earth as a human being, and then perhaps, if you will, forecast what you look forward to in the next life that comes along. Prabhupāda: Next life we are going back to home, back to God. That’s all. Interviewer: But what do you feel as a svāmī , as the head of this movement? What do you feel other than the obvious—the many that you have converted through students and through disciples. What great contributions to do you feel that you have given mankind? Prabhupāda: The contribution is that every living entity is eternal. He does not die, but he changes his body. This, this is botheration to get a body, one type of body. Today, today I am American, and tomorrow I am a dog. This botheration we want to stop. Interviewer: You feel then that you look forward, Your Divine Grace, to what is tomorrow? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tomorrow we are going to Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Because we get good assurance in Bhagavad*-gītā that: "Anyone who understands Me, Kṛṣṇa, perfectly well, the next birth," tyaktvā dehaṁ , "after quitting this body he comes to Me." So we are giving education to our student to understand Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who perfectly understands Kṛṣṇa, he goes back to home, back to Godhead, and gets eternal, blissful life of knowledge. That is our perfection. Interviewer: Yes, I am sure those that are with us for this review and study, this vocal study of the Kṛṣṇa movement, will perhaps be refreshed in the hearing some of the words from their leader, now in the United States this recording time, heading back to India where he came, as a human being, from Calcutta. We begin to wind up our visit with you. Your Divine Grace, I am sure those students listening with us on college radio stations and various other points in the USA will perhaps be attracted by your voice and by your own convictions, that an investigation of this movement should be considered. But I think before we do that, we might ask you a question or two about your own feelings. You . . . you, a man in your seventy years on earth, you feel that what you are perpetuating through your leadership will help? This is my question, Your Divine Grace. At this point in time, you know, your disciples know and your students know, that we’re going through tremendous upheaval, from political to war to all forms of, of disturbances. What do you feel the movement itself can do if anything to help correct it? Prabhupāda: Yes, this movement can help in every respect. It can solve all your problems, provided you take it seriously. Interviewer: But I wish you would expound a bit on that. How can they . . . how can the movement really satisfy and overcome some of the defects of mankind? *Prabhupāda: Well, the defects of mankind is a mental disturbance, and mind is so made that it is always agitated. So if you fix up your business in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will feel peace. That is enunciated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Three things you have to understand: that Kṛṣṇa, or God, is the proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; and He is the supreme friend. Anyone who understands these three things perfectly, he immediately becomes peaceful. Interviewer: And would you say that those that have joined your movement, those students and the disciples, have attained this state of mind on earth? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, certainly. Otherwise how they are sticking to me? I am not giving them any salary, or money, but they’re sticking, and you cannot get them back again to other consciousness. Interviewer: We understand that some of the members of the movement have strayed at times, and in many cases have returned because of their own self need. They have returned if they have left the fold. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Returned? Interviewer: Well, what I’m saying, Your Divine Grace, is that many members or disciples of the Kṛṣṇa movement who have faltered, who have failed in the work and drifted away, have come back. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is practically a fight with ignorance. Just like two parties are fighting, so there is possibility that in each party there will be some victims. So that is not consideration. After all, the party which gains victory he is the strong party. So we are fighting with non–Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or godlessness. So sometimes from our party there may be some victims—that is not extraordinary; that is quite natural—but that does not mean this movement will fail. It will go on. Interviewer: Well of course in all human endeavors, regardless of what it may be, there is human frailties that must be overcome. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, there are human frailties. That, that we are guarding against, that four principles, that one should not take to illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling and no intoxication. These four principles will save him. Just like a diseased man, when being treated, he has to accept some do’s and some do not’s. So that is natural. So these are the do not’s. And there are do’s also. Just we recommend we chant sixteen rounds of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So those who are actually following the do’s and do not’s, they are becoming successful. *Interviewer: Well, you can understand why those that follow this man, this man on earth, this Divine Grace, probably in some people’s ears it is over*-simplified, when you have the simple do’s and simple do not’s. But if in this program we have been able to enlighten some of you as to what the Kṛṣṇa movement is, and when you hear and see these men and women on the streets of America chanting, getting in their . . . their sounds that are what you might call their dimensions. Perhaps (break) enlightened some of you as to what this Kṛṣṇa movement is (break) for. We hope that this program has been instrumental in serving as a form of education as what Kṛṣṇa is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Now before we have the group that is with us for this recording give us the dimension that they preach and chant form on the streets of America, perhaps you might like to tell of some of those listening some points that we may not have touched upon, Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: I think you have touched all the points. And I have answered you duly. Interviewer: Well, we have tried. And now if we can prevail upon the students and the disciples that are with us at this recording, we’re going to pick up a typical sound that is heard over and over again throughout America. Since we’re not on television, you won’t see their eyes closed and their . . . what some might term a trance which they are in. But it is their own dimension, their own peace and contentment that is displayed from within. So we will ask them to sing for us, and we will close. Well, we shouldn’t say "sing," we should say "chant." Isn’t that right, Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: Yes, singing or chanting is the same thing. Interviewer: And they’re very happy people, too. I wish we could show you the picture of His Divine Grace, a man in his seventies, who perhaps is young more so than many of us that are really much older. So shall we close with the next two or three minutes of the Hare Kṛṣṇa song, or chant, or melody? ( kīrtana ) (break) Interviewer: Just the right. I had thought I could fade it out, but I didn’t. Would one of you good people take my picture with His Divine Grace? Out of my . . . I have a . . . in my bag, there. Śyāmasundara: Do you know how it works? Interviewer: Yeah, I will fix it for you. Śyāmasundara: This is exactly the same. Interviewer: It is the same as . . . interesting. Govinda dasi: I can’t get my flashbulb to work. Interviewer: Oh, I am sorry. Is it . . .? Govinda dasi: Have you changed the battery or something? Interviewer: Are you one with or without a battery? Govinda dasi: I have a battery. Interviewer: Yeah, well this is the kind that doesn’t require, and if you would, Mrs. Gary, I will say, if you will get us in the little square I would appreciate it, because I would like to remember this visit. Govinda dasi: Thank you. Smile! Interviewer: I will smile with His Grace. Now get us all . . . but be sure we are in there. (laughs) Govinda dasi: Where is the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Interviewer: Try it here in front, right there. It is good to have met you, and I wish you . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa’s . . . I should say Kṛṣṇa’s speed. Is that right? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs) Interviewer: One more, just for the road. Did the . . .? Gary, did we do? You think because of this disciple I was able to interview you in a positive way. What do you say, Gary? What did you say? Gaurasundara: One thing: You mentioned that he was going back to India, but actually I said he was coming from India. Interviewer: Oh, well, that is a detail which won’t make any difference, will it? Gaurasundara: Maybe. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I shall request you to induce your big men to understand this philosophy. It will be great help to your country. Interviewer: Well, have you had any audience with any of our large politicians? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you can arrange, it will be good. Interviewer: Oh, I cannot. But I can only hope that . . . I can only hope that what we have said here will be digested and listened with favor, because as I said to your people, we only do a positive . . . (indistinct) . . . take, like we do in India. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Interviewer: All right? Thank you. Yes, I would like my lady friend to see him, if she may. Could she . . .? Prabhupāda: Take this garland. Interviewer: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Yes, she can come in. Interviewer: I don’t know if she is out with her little dog. But perhaps you can have her come in and see him? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Interviewer: Her name is Barbara . . . (end) Radio Interview -- June 0, 1971, Los Angeles *Interviewer: . . . India, the headquarters in the United States and the world is now Los Angeles, California. His Divine Grace comes to us, a svāmī from Calcutta in India, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as it is known in this country, and I understand in one hundred other places in the non*-Communist world at this point, is a movement to cleanse the soul and make life on earth, as our guest would tell us, a more peaceful way of living. These people believe in reincarnation and many other philosophies, and as many of our listeners will know, it is also a very controversial movement. We will start for fourteen, fifteen minutes, and take it from there. I will hold the microphone back and forth. Jim, please. Now since I am not capable of pronouncing your Kṛṣṇa name, I want you to . . . I will introduce you as Your Divine Grace, and what I said here, that is for the producer. Words to that effect. And then I will ask you to give me your name as the head of this movement. Was there anyone before you that was in the Kṛṣṇa movement? Do you . . . are you succeeding someone? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a disciplic succession. Interviewer: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Disciplic succession. Interviewer: No, but before you? Prabhupāda: Yes, before me, my spiritual master was preaching. Interviewer: Oh, all right, I will ask you that. Your spiritual master was this name? Okay. Prabhupāda: My spiritual master, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Interviewer: And was he also from Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Interviewer: I see, okay. Syamasundara: The disciplic succession means that it goes back for thousands of years, passed down from master to disciple. Interviewer: How long would you say that the movement has been in existence for? Syamasundara: Five thousand years. Interviewer: Hm! Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, when He spoke Bhagavad*-gītā . *Interviewer: All right. I’ll try to be very careful, and we will do it. When I start. For more than five thousand years in this world of ours there has been a movement emanating from India known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We have come to speak with His Divine Grace, the man that is the disciple, a descendant of many that preceded him in the Kṛṣṇa movement. He comes to us from Calcutta. In North America in Los Angeles is now the world headquarters for the Kṛṣṇa movement. Hare Kṛṣṇa, as many of our listeners know, is somewhat of a controversial form of belief or religion or philosophy, because on the streets of America and many other the cities of the world, they give their chant, and they speak to the passer*-by, trying to convince and tell them about what they are chanting about, what they believe in, and their philosophy. So His Divine Grace will be our guest for the next few minutes as we chat with him here at this location and will tell us as much as he can about his beliefs and philosophy. Your Divine Grace, you come to us from Calcutta, and at this point in time you are on your way back to your home city, and having visited many cities in America and your world headquarters in Los Angeles, California. I thought if you will, please tell our listeners throughout this country, this USA, about yourself, and I would like first perhaps to start with the question: help me with your name, in the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami. Interviewer: And of course, that means the . . . your name, but of course you are a svāmī , which is a counterpart to the highest form of disciple there could be. Prabhupāda: Yes, svāmī means the master of senses. Generally people, they are servant of senses. So when one becomes '' svāmī , it means he is master of the senses. Interviewer: Now as the head of the Kṛṣṇa movement here on earth at this time, we understand that you follow many others—as we said at the outset, this is thousands of years old, emanating in India. So you are then, for all practical purposes, one in many directing this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, I am one of them. From Kṛṣṇa there are many disciples’ branches. Just as the original tree, and then there are branches, there are twigs, leaves, flowers. Similarly we have expanded in various places. And I was ordered by my spiritual master to come to the Western world. So I came first in New York and started this movement in 1966. Since then, it has spread all over the world. Interviewer: Yet the work of Kṛṣṇa is being better known throughout America today. Would you say that since 1966 here in America you have gained more favor than we’ll say disfavor in the Press; that the average person that does not know about the work? Prabhupāda: No, I have been favorably received, even by Christian priests. They also like me, because I am spreading God consciousness. Interviewer: In the work of Kṛṣṇa we understand that not only are you people vegetarians, you believe in legal marriage, you believe in the home and family. There are many other principles. Would you outline for practical purposes what the Kṛṣṇa movement really is? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa movement is really meant for making the human society a divine culture. Interviewer: Yes, but it goes we understand it is from within; the movement itself helps, we understand, cleanse the soul and make we on earth ready for our next dimension. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is compulsory. You believe or not believe, as you have changed so many bodies from your babyhood to childhood to boyhood to youth*-hood, then old-aged man, then naturally next life is when this body is finished, you get another body and begin your life. Interviewer: And it does not necessarily mean that you return as a human being today. You might return as an animal or some other subject. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are 8,400,000 species of life. So according to your desire and according to your activities, you get your next life. That is completely in the hands of nature. Interviewer: The movement of nature, as you just pointed out, Your Divine Grace, would indicate then that you place your hands in Kṛṣṇa, which in a counterpart in the Christian world is a . . . is much like Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, Jesus came, appeared, as the son of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa appeared as the Supreme Person, God, Himself. *Interviewer: One of the things that strikes us as a very important point that you can, I am sure, clarify: Why is it that the Kṛṣṇa movement goes to the public in the form of street chants and . . . why do you not let the movement grow from the so*-called conventional type of religion? Prabhupāda: Because people are so much forgetful of Kṛṣṇa, or God. They require to be reminded, and this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is transcendental vibration. If we chant on the street or loudly, whoever hears this sound, he becomes purified, cleansed of the dirty things from his heart. And therefore we go and chant so that others may hear and make cleansed their heart. Interviewer: Well, in today’s world of merchandising any product, as it were, whether it be religion or any other tangible thing, you certainly excel as far as being vocal. I imagine that throughout America and other places in the world it’s a controversial method that you have problems with. Prabhupāda: I do not accept this problem. Interviewer: Well, what I’m saying, Your Divine Grace, is that when you do chant, and when you do have your disciples and students on the street approaching the person that knows nothing about the movement, you are criticized. Prabhupāda: They may criticize; everything new is criticized. But as we have seen, all these American boys, European boys, they have come to me. In the beginning they also criticized, but by hearing, hearing again and again, they have become my disciples. *Interviewer: Yes, you have many disciples, and we understand that by and large those that are disciples that have graduated from student*-hood are by and large a young generation. Yours truly and many others in middle age are not attracted perhaps as much as the younger soul. *Prabhupāda: Because middle*-aged, old men, they’re more sophisticated, and young man, young boys and girls, they are more receptive. Interviewer: Would you say, then, the young mind is more susceptible or capable of changing his mode of life? We know for one instance one disciple that you have was cleansed of his use of drugs, and that’s a point that we want to talk about. In other words, a younger person is capable of the transition. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is in every case; therefore education is given in younger ages, not in old ages. I have got experience that in an examination, a father and his young girl appeared. The young girl passed, and the father failed. Therefore the young age is the proper time for taking education. Interviewer: Now in your case you are of at least seventy years in this earth form. We understand the path that you’re trodding here on earth as a svāmī , as a head of the Kṛṣṇa movement, not only in America but throughout the world. Do you feel that your life has been completely dedicated from the very outset? Were you born into the Kṛṣṇa, or did you . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was born in a family of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My father was a great devotee, and from my childhood he trained me. I got the opportunity for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning of my life. Interviewer: So this has been your lifestyle all these years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Now, we understand, Your Divine Grace, that at this point in time, you as the titular or the actual head of the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, you have no successor when you move into another dimension; that from the masses, from the disciples that you have throughout the world, someone will rise to take your place when you move to another world? Prabhupāda: Not someone, but so many, because I am teaching all the students to work in future. I may die, but the movement will go on, because all these young boys and girls, they are complete in knowledge of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So it cannot be stopped. Interviewer: Oh, no! No, no, we did not mean that it would be stopped or cease at any given time, but someone will succeed you. But you say many will. Prabhupāda: No, why someone? Many will succeed. Interviewer: Yes. Now, the growth of the movement in America, as you have indicated, is very great, very rapid. What would you attribute this most to? The enthusiasm? Or how do you feel it . . . why is it growing? Prabhupāda: Yes, amongst my students the enthusiasm is very nice. So I expect that each one of them will be future preachers. Interviewer: A teacher, or did you say . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, teacher and preacher, both. Interviewer: And you use the words preacher as well as teacher? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Well, of course one on the outside does not always understand or can comprehend the many facets of what the Kṛṣṇa movement is, because as one that does not know, we must be objective, and in doing that perhaps you can tell our listeners some of the things that might be attractive to listen to the person that is approached to the next time on the street in a given city. Prabhupāda: Yes, people . . . (aside) Give all these books. We have got about dozens of books on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So we invite educated class men—philosophers, scientists, politicians—to study this movement. Why they should remain apart from this movement? It is a nice movement, it is meant for correcting the mistake of the human society. They should be interested. They should read our books and understand. *Interviewer: By and large, we understand that the movement of Kṛṣṇa is a passive form of religion, and that it is one that is from within. Would you say that you are non*-political and non-violent? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. We are non*-political. We are not, I mean to say, stagnant; we are progressive, and it is exactly what you mean by religion. It is not exactly religion; it is a culture. It is a culture, divine culture: how to make every human being a divine man. There are two classes of men, one is called—according to Vedic literature—one is called a demon, and the other is called demigod. So anyone who is not perfectly cultured, he is called demon. And one who is perfectly cultured, he is called a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, or a demigod. And human life is meant for understanding what he is, what is to know, what is God, what is his relationship with God, what is this material world, why one has come here, where he will go. These things are actually enquiries of the human life, and they should be satisfied. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are not exactly interested with the animal way of life. Animal way of life means the animal is interested only in four things: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. If human civilization is based on these four principles only, then it is another name of animal life. So we should go beyond animal life, try to understand the value of life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Interviewer: Then your belief centers around the fact that a human being on earth has more than the so*-called creature comforts of life—the mating, the sleeping, the eating. Prabhupāda: Yes, comfortable sleeping, that is a mental concoction, because, perhaps when one sleeps he may dream so many horrible things, or he may not have very nice sleep. But a dog sleeping on the street, he may have very sound sleep. So by improving the condition of sleep does not mean advancement of civilization. *Interviewer: We are having an in*-depth chat with the man that is the head of the Kṛṣṇa movement, originating originally of course in India, now with its world headquarters in Los Angeles, California, growing by leaps and bounds at least throughout the USA—the movement that many of our listeners will soon identify at the close of our broadcast when we will have the vibrations cast off by some of the disciples that are here with us at this interview time. Many people involved with the Kṛṣṇa movement . . . that are not involved with the Kṛṣṇa movement have no idea, perhaps, what this organization, this religion, this philosophy, stands for, and so we have come here to speak with His Divine Grace on the feeling and his thoughts about the Kṛṣṇa movement. Now when you make the chant on the streets, they say "Hare" Kṛṣṇa, and we understand that that means "Hail to God." Prabhupāda: Yes, we address. "Hare" means the energy of Kṛṣṇa, God. Two things are working: Kṛṣṇa is working through His energies. Just like the sun planet, it is working through its energy, the sunshine. Similarly, God is also working through His different energies. So this material manifestation is also creation of His energy. So we are addressing the energy of Lord, that is "Hare," and we are addressing Kṛṣṇa, the Lord, or Rāma, the Lord. Addressing means offering something or enquiring something or asking something—addressing. If I say "Jim," that means I am addressing for some purpose. So this is address, Hare Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, the energy of Lord. Oh, the Lord. Please again take me in Your association from this material condition of life." This is the purpose of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Interviewer: When you define it, Your Divine Grace, it seems rather simple, wherein some people feel perhaps your movement is more complex than you simplified. We feel that our listeners should know, research gives us the information that the Kṛṣṇa movement is free of the drug culture. There is no use of this in the organization whatsoever. There is complete harmony in the life of marriage and the raising of children, and there are many other ramifications . . . Prabhupāda: No intoxication. Interviewer: . . . and no intoxication. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eating. Interviewer: And I will let you continue, Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling. These are the four principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Interviewer: When a student—being very realistic—when a student or an average person, whether he be an Englishman or a Frenchman or an American, decides that he would like to investigate the movement, does he come to one of your temples in any given city? Is he free to enter and go and learn without any restrictions? Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone can live with us; he is welcome. We have got sufficient place to give him accommodation, according to our capacity. We give him free boarding and lodgings and give him chance to live with us, to study our books, to study our movement, to hear us, to question us. All these facilities are offered to anyone who comes to us. Interviewer: We understand also that your disciples or your students live in what is commonly known as a "commune," but it is, as you have already indicated, as ethical as it can possibly be. Prabhupāda: Commune? What do you mean by commune? Interviewer: When you have your students and your disciples living in one . . . one building. I mean it is divided for the men and the women. Prabhupāda: Yes, because we do not allow illicit sex life. Therefore we advise those who are not married, the boys may live separate from the girls, so the girls may live separate from the boys—unless they are married. Interviewer: Yes, and we have already indicated earlier in our broadcast that the members of the Kṛṣṇa movement that do enter into matrimony are done so legally in that state or country where the laws they abide by. Now I think it would be interesting as we’ve woven a story about you and the movement of Kṛṣṇa, we would like, perhaps, if you will, in your own voice, give us somewhat of a personal life story as to some of the things you feel that you have accomplished in your years on earth as a human being, and then perhaps, if you will, forecast what you look forward to in the next life that comes along. Prabhupāda: Next life we are going back to home, back to God. That’s all. Interviewer: But what do you feel as a svāmī , as the head of this movement? What do you feel other than the obvious—the many that you have converted through students and through disciples. What great contributions to do you feel that you have given mankind? Prabhupāda: The contribution is that every living entity is eternal. He does not die, but he changes his body. This, this is botheration to get a body, one type of body. Today, today I am American, and tomorrow I am a dog. This botheration we want to stop. Interviewer: You feel then that you look forward, Your Divine Grace, to what is tomorrow? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tomorrow we are going to Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Because we get good assurance in Bhagavad*-gītā that: "Anyone who understands Me, Kṛṣṇa, perfectly well, the next birth," tyaktvā dehaṁ , "after quitting this body he comes to Me." So we are giving education to our student to understand Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who perfectly understands Kṛṣṇa, he goes back to home, back to Godhead, and gets eternal, blissful life of knowledge. That is our perfection. Interviewer: Yes, I am sure those that are with us for this review and study, this vocal study of the Kṛṣṇa movement, will perhaps be refreshed in the hearing some of the words from their leader, now in the United States this recording time, heading back to India where he came, as a human being, from Calcutta. We begin to wind up our visit with you. Your Divine Grace, I am sure those students listening with us on college radio stations and various other points in the USA will perhaps be attracted by your voice and by your own convictions, that an investigation of this movement should be considered. But I think before we do that, we might ask you a question or two about your own feelings. You . . . you, a man in your seventy years on earth, you feel that what you are perpetuating through your leadership will help? This is my question, Your Divine Grace. At this point in time, you know, your disciples know and your students know, that we’re going through tremendous upheaval, from political to war to all forms of, of disturbances. What do you feel the movement itself can do if anything to help correct it? Prabhupāda: Yes, this movement can help in every respect. It can solve all your problems, provided you take it seriously. Interviewer: But I wish you would expound a bit on that. How can they . . . how can the movement really satisfy and overcome some of the defects of mankind? *Prabhupāda: Well, the defects of mankind is a mental disturbance, and mind is so made that it is always agitated. So if you fix up your business in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will feel peace. That is enunciated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Three things you have to understand: that Kṛṣṇa, or God, is the proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; and He is the supreme friend. Anyone who understands these three things perfectly, he immediately becomes peaceful. Interviewer: And would you say that those that have joined your movement, those students and the disciples, have attained this state of mind on earth? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, certainly. Otherwise how they are sticking to me? I am not giving them any salary, or money, but they’re sticking, and you cannot get them back again to other consciousness. Interviewer: We understand that some of the members of the movement have strayed at times, and in many cases have returned because of their own self need. They have returned if they have left the fold. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Returned? Interviewer: Well, what I’m saying, Your Divine Grace, is that many members or disciples of the Kṛṣṇa movement who have faltered, who have failed in the work and drifted away, have come back. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is practically a fight with ignorance. Just like two parties are fighting, so there is possibility that in each party there will be some victims. So that is not consideration. After all, the party which gains victory he is the strong party. So we are fighting with non–Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or godlessness. So sometimes from our party there may be some victims—that is not extraordinary; that is quite natural—but that does not mean this movement will fail. It will go on. Interviewer: Well of course in all human endeavors, regardless of what it may be, there is human frailties that must be overcome. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, there are human frailties. That, that we are guarding against, that four principles, that one should not take to illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling and no intoxication. These four principles will save him. Just like a diseased man, when being treated, he has to accept some do’s and some do not’s. So that is natural. So these are the do not’s. And there are do’s also. Just we recommend we chant sixteen rounds of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So those who are actually following the do’s and do not’s, they are becoming successful. *Interviewer: Well, you can understand why those that follow this man, this man on earth, this Divine Grace, probably in some people’s ears it is over*-simplified, when you have the simple do’s and simple do not’s. But if in this program we have been able to enlighten some of you as to what the Kṛṣṇa movement is, and when you hear and see these men and women on the streets of America chanting, getting in their . . . their sounds that are what you might call their dimensions. Perhaps (break) enlightened some of you as to what this Kṛṣṇa movement is (break) for. We hope that this program has been instrumental in serving as a form of education as what Kṛṣṇa is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Now before we have the group that is with us for this recording give us the dimension that they preach and chant form on the streets of America, perhaps you might like to tell of some of those listening some points that we may not have touched upon, Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: I think you have touched all the points. And I have answered you duly. Interviewer: Well, we have tried. And now if we can prevail upon the students and the disciples that are with us at this recording, we’re going to pick up a typical sound that is heard over and over again throughout America. Since we’re not on television, you won’t see their eyes closed and their . . . what some might term a trance which they are in. But it is their own dimension, their own peace and contentment that is displayed from within. So we will ask them to sing for us, and we will close. Well, we shouldn’t say "sing," we should say "chant." Isn’t that right, Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: Yes, singing or chanting is the same thing. Interviewer: And they’re very happy people, too. I wish we could show you the picture of His Divine Grace, a man in his seventies, who perhaps is young more so than many of us that are really much older. So shall we close with the next two or three minutes of the Hare Kṛṣṇa song, or chant, or melody? ( kīrtana ) (break) Interviewer: Just the right. I had thought I could fade it out, but I didn’t. Would one of you good people take my picture with His Divine Grace? Out of my . . . I have a . . . in my bag, there. Śyāmasundara: Do you know how it works? Interviewer: Yeah, I will fix it for you. Śyāmasundara: This is exactly the same. Interviewer: It is the same as . . . interesting. Govinda dasi: I can’t get my flashbulb to work. Interviewer: Oh, I am sorry. Is it . . .? Govinda dasi: Have you changed the battery or something? Interviewer: Are you one with or without a battery? Govinda dasi: I have a battery. Interviewer: Yeah, well this is the kind that doesn’t require, and if you would, Mrs. Gary, I will say, if you will get us in the little square I would appreciate it, because I would like to remember this visit. Govinda dasi: Thank you. Smile! Interviewer: I will smile with His Grace. Now get us all . . . but be sure we are in there. (laughs) Govinda dasi: Where is the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Interviewer: Try it here in front, right there. It is good to have met you, and I wish you . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa’s . . . I should say Kṛṣṇa’s speed. Is that right? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs) Interviewer: One more, just for the road. Did the . . .? Gary, did we do? You think because of this disciple I was able to interview you in a positive way. What do you say, Gary? What did you say? Gaurasundara: One thing: You mentioned that he was going back to India, but actually I said he was coming from India. Interviewer: Oh, well, that is a detail which won’t make any difference, will it? Gaurasundara: Maybe. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I shall request you to induce your big men to understand this philosophy. It will be great help to your country. Interviewer: Well, have you had any audience with any of our large politicians? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you can arrange, it will be good. Interviewer: Oh, I cannot. But I can only hope that . . . I can only hope that what we have said here will be digested and listened with favor, because as I said to your people, we only do a positive . . . (indistinct) . . . take, like we do in India. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Interviewer: All right? Thank you. Yes, I would like my lady friend to see him, if she may. Could she . . .? Prabhupāda: Take this garland. Interviewer: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Yes, she can come in. Interviewer: I don’t know if she is out with her little dog. But perhaps you can have her come in and see him? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Interviewer: Her name is Barbara . . . (end) Press Conference -- June 26, 1971, Paris (translated into French throughout) Prabhupāda: The original consciousness is that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like at the present moment we are thinking, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am American." Just like there are different consciousness, but the original consciousness is "I am Kṛṣṇa's." So the present civilization is missing a very important point. They are accepting this body as the self, but actually this is not the fact. I am spirit soul. I am Brahman, or part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So this Movement is reviving the original consciousness. And by missing this consciousness—"I am the spirit soul"—I am transmigrating from one body to another. Today I am a Frenchman, but tomorrow I may be something else. There are 8,400,000 species of life. I can . . . after quitting this body I can be transferred to any one of the species of life. That point we are missing. So this process is to get out of the designation. Just like I am spirit soul, but due to my this body, I am thinking I am Indian. So this designation has to be changed. Then we are purified. We are engaged in some sort of service, every one of us, but that service is now being rendered within that designation. But when we are freed from the designation, when we are purified, then our service to Kṛṣṇa becomes bona fide, and that is the real standard of peace. So this chanting process is purifying process to become freed from this designation. Just like all these boys, some of them coming from America, some of them from England, some of them from India, some of them from France or Germany, but they have forgotten that they are German or American or Indian or something else. They are always thinking, "I am Kṛṣṇa's." This is freedom from designation. *So the peace formula as stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is said that when one understands that Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, Supreme Personality, is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor and He is the supreme friend, if we understand these three items, then there is peace immediately. The original Sanskrit words in this connection are as follows: This śāntim means peace. Actual peace can be achieved when one understands these three things only—Kṛṣṇa the supreme enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa the supreme proprietor and Kṛṣṇa the supreme friend. So we are teaching these three things to the world. That is our business. And the process is very simple. The process is simply chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. If we continue chanting, it has got some spiritual value; then we cleanse our heart from all dirty things. Except Kṛṣṇa consciousness, any other consciousness is dirty—that is material, contaminated consciousness. *So by chanting this mantra . . . just like in India, still there are many snake charmers. They, by chanting mantra , they cure snake*-bitten cases, although they're fatal. Of course they are now dwindling, but there are still. So if it is possible materially, then spiritually there is great possibility. And it is recommended in the śāstras , and actually it has happened. By chanting this mantra , simple mantra , without any education, without any philosophical knowledge, simply if we chant, your heart will be cleansed of all dirty things and you'll understand that you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and you will understand that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor and He is the supreme friend. And as soon as you understand these three things, you are in peace. *This word man , man means mind. Man*-tra — tra means deliverance. So mantra means which delivers from our mental platform. Every one of us are now hovering either on the bodily platform or on the mental platform, subtle. Mental platform is subtle, and bodily platform is gross. But beyond this mind there is intelligence, and beyond intelligence there is soul. So by this mantra we, I mean to say, cross over the mental platform, intellectual platform, and come directly to the spiritual platform. And as soon as we come to the spiritual platform and we understand our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God, then we are in peace. Prabhupāda: (explains to the translator) Delivered from the mental platform. I think this is the explanation. Now if there is question. Translator: (translating questions) You said that there's 8,400,000 species of living entities. He would like to have an explanation of it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). There are nine lakhs . Nine lakhs means . . . ten millions, one lakh ? Śyāmasundara: Nine hundred thousand. *Prabhupāda: Nine hundred . . . yes. Nine hundred thousand species in the water. Aquatic animals, yes. Nine hundred thousand aquatic animals, jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi . Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati — sthāvarā means the trees, plants which cannot move, they stand up; *they are twenty hundred thousand. Sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati . Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ . Kṛmayo means insects. They are eleven hundred thousand species. *Then after insect life there is birds, pakṣiṇāṁ daśa*-lakṣaṇam —there are ten hundred thousand species of life, birds. Birds. Then there are beasts, thirty hundred thousands of beasts. And there are four hundred thousand species of human beings, out of which the civilized form of human being are very few. *And this civilized form of life is especially meant for self*-realization. This is a chance given by the nature to understand yourself. But if we don't understand—miss this point—again we go into the cycle of different species of life. Just we can imagine if we get next life like a tree, we have to stand up for ten thousands of years. So we should be very careful not to miss this opportunity of getting civilized form of life, and try to understand what I am. All the śāstras , *Vedas* , they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. If you don't take advantage of this great knowledge, then you are following the suicidal policy. Yes? Question: (translated) What do you mean by 400,000 forms of human beings? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many species of human beings—in the jungles, uncivilized. Gradually they come to the civilized form. Not that every human being is complete in knowledge. There are so many species of human being, they are not in knowledge; they are in the darkness. Therefore according to Vedic civilization there are four divisions. The most intelligent class of men, they are called brahmins ; and the next intelligent class of men are called the kṣatriyas ; and next the vaiśyas ; the next, śūdras ; and all others, they are caṇḍālas . This is according to the knowledge, advancement of spiritual knowledge, this division. *(break) But everyone can be elevated to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is barred or checked from . . . for coming to the highest position. And this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to bring everyone to the highest platform of understanding. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Kṛṣṇa says that anyone can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and thus elevated to the highest perfection of life. So it is the duty of persons, especially that is ordered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu that Indians, they should purify first their life and then distribute this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. Question: (translated) What is our position in relation to . . . our spiritualism, in relation to Christian monks and Christian spiritualism, and how is it generally, the relationship between them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian religion teaches that God consciousness. Lord Jesus Christ preached God consciousness. He represented himself as son of God. So we agree to this principle. There is no controversy. Yes. Anyone who teaches God consciousness, we agree with the principle. Muhammad also, he preached God consciousness. So we welcome. There maybe some difference of process—that does not matter—but we test a religion by the results how people are becoming God conscious, that's all. According to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said: *It is said that that is first*-class religious principle which teaches devotion to the Supreme Lord without any motive and without being hampered by any material condition. God consciousness is not such a thing that if a man is materially poor he cannot advance. Everyone can advance. Nothing material can check God consciousness, and any religion which teaches this principle, that is first class. Question: (translated) Do you think that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has anything particular to say to the society today? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are saying that—I began—that unless you come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you cannot be happy. Kṛṣṇa . . . when I say "Kṛṣṇa" it means God, God consciousness. You may say in another name; that does not matter. When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God, the Supreme Lord. So unless we are conscious of the Supreme Lord . . . in other religions they say "God is great," but how God is great? What is the name of God, and what other things? Just like if we know somebody, we must know very particularly what is his name, where is his residence, what does he do—so many things. Simply an idea of God is great, that is good, but how great He is, that is a science. That we have to learn from Vedic literature. *(break) . . . malinterpretation. Then we can understand the science of God very clearly. So we are teaching our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . (break) Question: (translated) One thing we're doing . . . we should think of people are very confusing in the idea of reincarnation. So how can you say that human intelligence and . . . a human being and human intelligence can reincarnate in a vegetable form or an animal form? Prabhupāda: Well, all these description of different types of living entities . . . they are living entities; they have got simply different form. Just like we are sitting, so many ladies and gentlemen, we have got different dresses, but we are all human being. Similarly, all these description of species of life, they are all spiritual sparks, but according to their karma they have got different bodies. *Some of them are trees, some of them are aquatics, some of them are human beings, some of them are greater than them, some of them lower than them. So there are innumerable, uncountable different types of living entities, and they are having their different bodies according to the mentality at the time of death. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : At the time of death, the subtle mentality which you develop, it is just like the air carries the flavor; similarly, that mental idea is being carried by the subtle mind, intelligence, and you are given chance of a particular body by which you can enjoy that mental position. So unfortunately, although it is a great science, throughout the whole world there are so many universities, they are neglecting this science. That is the defect of modern civilization. The transmigration of the soul, it is a great science, but because they cannot tackle this matter, they will avoid it. That's a great risky civilization. That's all. So the higher intelligence of human being is especially given to understand this science. But they are neglecting this science. They are busy with eating, sleeping, mating and defending, which is the business of the animals—they are also busy with eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Question: (translated) What is the ideal of the . . . ideal result of the transmigration of the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: The idea is to save yourself. Suppose I am now very happy Frenchman, but if next life I get another life, degraded life, then what is my position? Therefore one should understand, one should prepare his next body in this life. Just like a student studies very carefully to prepare his next life, similarly, this human form of life should be prepared to get next life. *Next life, permanent life, that is possible. Permanent life—if you transfer yourself in the spiritual world, you get permanent life, full of knowledge, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha : eternal life full of knowledge, full of pleasure, full of bliss. You should try for this. Human life is meant for that purpose; otherwise you are missing the chance. Question: (translated) Should we do this with material support or without material support? Prabhupāda: No. It has nothing to do with material support. Without any material support one can execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Question: (translated) Therefore there exist a class of superior beings, spiritual, who are existing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Question: (translated) He's saying maybe this is what the Christians call angels. *Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become God conscious, that is the position of angel. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā —the exact verse is like this: *This brahma*-bhūyāya means angels. They are not in this material world; *they are transcendentally situated. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate —anyone who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in devotional service: He is above the three modes of material nature. Angel means those who are not affected by the modes of material nature. That is the position of angel. The example can be given, just like in any state there are two department—civil department, criminal department. Those who are not criminals, they are not under the control of the criminal department. Similarly, those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are not controlled by the modes of material nature. So those who are not criminal, they are not controlled by the criminal department. So therefore, although the material nature, the laws are very stringent, still those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, for them there is no such thing as law. *(break) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "Those who are surrendered to Me, they have already transcended the position of being controlled by material nature." Question: (translated) Can you explain why this Kṛṣṇa consciousness has so much success among young people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not only young people. Old men are reluctant, and they are easily taken. If old men take, they will be also successful. It is not restricted to the younger generation—to everyone. But the younger generation, they are receptive, they are blank slate. The old men, they have got so many hodgepodge in their mind, therefore they cannot take easily. That is the difficulty. They have to forget all hodgepodge things, then they have to take. So the process of forgetting is there, but here they are new heart, and they see very nice thing, they accept it. *So anyone can take it, and anyone will be benefited. There is no such thing that it is meant for such*-and-such class of men. No. There is no such thing. Question: (translated) These young people . . . the second question was—these young people have come searching. And why are they searching? Why are these young people searching? Prabhupāda: Well, they are searching because they are frustrated by seeing their parents' life, by their guardians' life. They are frustrated. So that is a good sign. One who is frustrated, he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness very quickly. I was just coming from Moscow. There are many young Russians, they are also very much prepared to take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there is so many restriction. We cannot preach very freely; that is our position. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is now experimented that this movement can be accepted by anyone, any part of the world, and whoever takes it, he will be happy. That's all. (aside) That gentleman, he wants . . . Question: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: His idea is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. Punaḥ punaḥ means "again and again," and that we are preaching. And Kṛṣṇa also is speaking the same thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." And we are teaching that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in one sense we are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Just try to understand: Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." We also say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." So there is no change of words. But anyone who changes the word, he is not representative. Just like if somebody says . . . suppose I say: "Give me a glass of water." And if my disciple says, "Give a glass of water to Prabhupāda," the order is the same. But if somebody says that this Prabhupāda's words, "Give me a glass . . ." "me" can be changed to "milk," that is bogus. That is going on. It should be . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be strictly on the principles of Kṛṣṇa's desire. That was executed by Arjuna. He changed his own principle for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. He did not want to fight; *therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was explained to him, and later on, when Kṛṣṇa enquired, "What you have decided?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall now fight." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One has to change his concocted ideas and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That will benefit; otherwise not. Question: (translated) Are there other names than Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many thousands and millions of names, but "Kṛṣṇa" is the chief name. (break) Question: (translated) He'd like to know if there is actually a living representative of Kṛṣṇa here. And how do you become . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, all of us living representative of Kṛṣṇa, because we are speaking what Kṛṣṇa says. Don't you understand? Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me," and we are saying, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Therefore we are representative. I will give you one example. Just like a businessman sends his representative to sell some particular thing, and the canvasser says, "Please purchase this thing." Therefore he is real representative. We don't say that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" or "Surrender to somebody else" is the same. No. We don't say like that. And how . . . why we say that, we can support. That is our position. Therefore we are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Translator: (asks Prabhupāda to explain what he said) Prabhupāda: If somebody says: "Why you are asking to surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then that we can explain that. We have explained how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa in twelve voluminous books, four hundred pages each. So if anyone wants to understand full philosophy, science, why one should surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there are so many books. But if somebody is fortunate, he can accept our word and surrender to Kṛṣṇa by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is easy and sublime. Question: (translated) Can you arrive at Kṛṣṇa consciousness without having any love for humanity? *Prabhupāda: It is the only process how to love humanity. It is the only process. When Rupa Goswami met Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he designated Him namo mahā*-vadānyāya (CC Madhya 19.53): "The greatest benefactor," kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te , "by Your distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the greatest welfare activity in the whole human society. Question: (translated) Do you consider celibacy as superior to being married in our spiritual order? Prabhupāda: Yes. Celibacy, that is the Vedic system. First of all students are taught not to live by theoretical—by practical. The students were living in gurukula to learn brahmacarya , celibacy, and if the master saw that he is complete in celibacy, he would not allow him to marry. But if he sees that he has got tendency to enjoy this material life, he says that "You go home and get married." The idea was to avoid sex life. But if one cannot, then next automatically he is married. Not illicit sex life. That is most sinful life. Unrestricted sex life is visible just like the hogs, they have got unrestricted sex life; the monkeys. But that is not human life. Human life, even there is necessity of sex life, that should be regulated and restrained. That is human life. Question: (translated) Do you think marriage is necessary? Prabhupāda: Not necessary, but one who cannot avoid sex life, for him it is necessary. Question: (translated) He's saying that do you mean you can have children and not be married? Prabhupāda: Eh? Question: (translated) Does that mean you can have children but not be married? Prabhupāda: (laughter) No, no, no. (laughs) No, no, no. Bachelor, that is not a wanted. Bachelor, that is not wanted. Children must be bona fide; *otherwise they will be called varṇa*-saṅkaraḥ . In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, when there are varṇa-saṅkara , illegitimate children, the whole world becomes hellish. Question: (translated) He would like to know the means that we use every day, practical means that we use to attract people to our Movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. We do our own duty, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Those who are kindly attracted we welcome; otherwise we go on doing our duty. Question: What is the difference between our teaching and the teachings of Maharishi? Prabhupāda: I do not know about Maharishi. We know about our own business. That's all. That's all right. Thank you very much. (cut) (end) Press Conference -- June 26, 1971, Paris (translated into French throughout) Prabhupāda: The original consciousness is that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like at the present moment we are thinking, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am American." Just like there are different consciousness, but the original consciousness is "I am Kṛṣṇa's." So the present civilization is missing a very important point. They are accepting this body as the self, but actually this is not the fact. I am spirit soul. I am Brahman, or part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So this Movement is reviving the original consciousness. And by missing this consciousness—"I am the spirit soul"—I am transmigrating from one body to another. Today I am a Frenchman, but tomorrow I may be something else. There are 8,400,000 species of life. I can . . . after quitting this body I can be transferred to any one of the species of life. That point we are missing. So this process is to get out of the designation. Just like I am spirit soul, but due to my this body, I am thinking I am Indian. So this designation has to be changed. Then we are purified. We are engaged in some sort of service, every one of us, but that service is now being rendered within that designation. But when we are freed from the designation, when we are purified, then our service to Kṛṣṇa becomes bona fide, and that is the real standard of peace. So this chanting process is purifying process to become freed from this designation. Just like all these boys, some of them coming from America, some of them from England, some of them from India, some of them from France or Germany, but they have forgotten that they are German or American or Indian or something else. They are always thinking, "I am Kṛṣṇa's." This is freedom from designation. *So the peace formula as stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is said that when one understands that Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, Supreme Personality, is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor and He is the supreme friend, if we understand these three items, then there is peace immediately. The original Sanskrit words in this connection are as follows: This śāntim means peace. Actual peace can be achieved when one understands these three things only—Kṛṣṇa the supreme enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa the supreme proprietor and Kṛṣṇa the supreme friend. So we are teaching these three things to the world. That is our business. And the process is very simple. The process is simply chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. If we continue chanting, it has got some spiritual value; then we cleanse our heart from all dirty things. Except Kṛṣṇa consciousness, any other consciousness is dirty—that is material, contaminated consciousness. *So by chanting this mantra . . . just like in India, still there are many snake charmers. They, by chanting mantra , they cure snake*-bitten cases, although they're fatal. Of course they are now dwindling, but there are still. So if it is possible materially, then spiritually there is great possibility. And it is recommended in the śāstras , and actually it has happened. By chanting this mantra , simple mantra , without any education, without any philosophical knowledge, simply if we chant, your heart will be cleansed of all dirty things and you'll understand that you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and you will understand that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor and He is the supreme friend. And as soon as you understand these three things, you are in peace. *This word man , man means mind. Man*-tra — tra means deliverance. So mantra means which delivers from our mental platform. Every one of us are now hovering either on the bodily platform or on the mental platform, subtle. Mental platform is subtle, and bodily platform is gross. But beyond this mind there is intelligence, and beyond intelligence there is soul. So by this mantra we, I mean to say, cross over the mental platform, intellectual platform, and come directly to the spiritual platform. And as soon as we come to the spiritual platform and we understand our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God, then we are in peace. Prabhupāda: (explains to the translator) Delivered from the mental platform. I think this is the explanation. Now if there is question. Translator: (translating questions) You said that there's 8,400,000 species of living entities. He would like to have an explanation of it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). There are nine lakhs . Nine lakhs means . . . ten millions, one lakh ? Śyāmasundara: Nine hundred thousand. *Prabhupāda: Nine hundred . . . yes. Nine hundred thousand species in the water. Aquatic animals, yes. Nine hundred thousand aquatic animals, jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi . Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati — sthāvarā means the trees, plants which cannot move, they stand up; *they are twenty hundred thousand. Sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati . Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ . Kṛmayo means insects. They are eleven hundred thousand species. *Then after insect life there is birds, pakṣiṇāṁ daśa*-lakṣaṇam —there are ten hundred thousand species of life, birds. Birds. Then there are beasts, thirty hundred thousands of beasts. And there are four hundred thousand species of human beings, out of which the civilized form of human being are very few. *And this civilized form of life is especially meant for self*-realization. This is a chance given by the nature to understand yourself. But if we don't understand—miss this point—again we go into the cycle of different species of life. Just we can imagine if we get next life like a tree, we have to stand up for ten thousands of years. So we should be very careful not to miss this opportunity of getting civilized form of life, and try to understand what I am. All the śāstras , *Vedas* , they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. If you don't take advantage of this great knowledge, then you are following the suicidal policy. Yes? Question: (translated) What do you mean by 400,000 forms of human beings? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many species of human beings—in the jungles, uncivilized. Gradually they come to the civilized form. Not that every human being is complete in knowledge. There are so many species of human being, they are not in knowledge; they are in the darkness. Therefore according to Vedic civilization there are four divisions. The most intelligent class of men, they are called brahmins ; and the next intelligent class of men are called the kṣatriyas ; and next the vaiśyas ; the next, śūdras ; and all others, they are caṇḍālas . This is according to the knowledge, advancement of spiritual knowledge, this division. *(break) But everyone can be elevated to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is barred or checked from . . . for coming to the highest position. And this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to bring everyone to the highest platform of understanding. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Kṛṣṇa says that anyone can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and thus elevated to the highest perfection of life. So it is the duty of persons, especially that is ordered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu that Indians, they should purify first their life and then distribute this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. Question: (translated) What is our position in relation to . . . our spiritualism, in relation to Christian monks and Christian spiritualism, and how is it generally, the relationship between them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian religion teaches that God consciousness. Lord Jesus Christ preached God consciousness. He represented himself as son of God. So we agree to this principle. There is no controversy. Yes. Anyone who teaches God consciousness, we agree with the principle. Muhammad also, he preached God consciousness. So we welcome. There maybe some difference of process—that does not matter—but we test a religion by the results how people are becoming God conscious, that's all. According to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said: *It is said that that is first*-class religious principle which teaches devotion to the Supreme Lord without any motive and without being hampered by any material condition. God consciousness is not such a thing that if a man is materially poor he cannot advance. Everyone can advance. Nothing material can check God consciousness, and any religion which teaches this principle, that is first class. Question: (translated) Do you think that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has anything particular to say to the society today? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are saying that—I began—that unless you come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you cannot be happy. Kṛṣṇa . . . when I say "Kṛṣṇa" it means God, God consciousness. You may say in another name; that does not matter. When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God, the Supreme Lord. So unless we are conscious of the Supreme Lord . . . in other religions they say "God is great," but how God is great? What is the name of God, and what other things? Just like if we know somebody, we must know very particularly what is his name, where is his residence, what does he do—so many things. Simply an idea of God is great, that is good, but how great He is, that is a science. That we have to learn from Vedic literature. *(break) . . . malinterpretation. Then we can understand the science of God very clearly. So we are teaching our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . (break) Question: (translated) One thing we're doing . . . we should think of people are very confusing in the idea of reincarnation. So how can you say that human intelligence and . . . a human being and human intelligence can reincarnate in a vegetable form or an animal form? Prabhupāda: Well, all these description of different types of living entities . . . they are living entities; they have got simply different form. Just like we are sitting, so many ladies and gentlemen, we have got different dresses, but we are all human being. Similarly, all these description of species of life, they are all spiritual sparks, but according to their karma they have got different bodies. *Some of them are trees, some of them are aquatics, some of them are human beings, some of them are greater than them, some of them lower than them. So there are innumerable, uncountable different types of living entities, and they are having their different bodies according to the mentality at the time of death. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : At the time of death, the subtle mentality which you develop, it is just like the air carries the flavor; similarly, that mental idea is being carried by the subtle mind, intelligence, and you are given chance of a particular body by which you can enjoy that mental position. So unfortunately, although it is a great science, throughout the whole world there are so many universities, they are neglecting this science. That is the defect of modern civilization. The transmigration of the soul, it is a great science, but because they cannot tackle this matter, they will avoid it. That's a great risky civilization. That's all. So the higher intelligence of human being is especially given to understand this science. But they are neglecting this science. They are busy with eating, sleeping, mating and defending, which is the business of the animals—they are also busy with eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Question: (translated) What is the ideal of the . . . ideal result of the transmigration of the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: The idea is to save yourself. Suppose I am now very happy Frenchman, but if next life I get another life, degraded life, then what is my position? Therefore one should understand, one should prepare his next body in this life. Just like a student studies very carefully to prepare his next life, similarly, this human form of life should be prepared to get next life. *Next life, permanent life, that is possible. Permanent life—if you transfer yourself in the spiritual world, you get permanent life, full of knowledge, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha : eternal life full of knowledge, full of pleasure, full of bliss. You should try for this. Human life is meant for that purpose; otherwise you are missing the chance. Question: (translated) Should we do this with material support or without material support? Prabhupāda: No. It has nothing to do with material support. Without any material support one can execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Question: (translated) Therefore there exist a class of superior beings, spiritual, who are existing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Question: (translated) He's saying maybe this is what the Christians call angels. *Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become God conscious, that is the position of angel. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā —the exact verse is like this: *This brahma*-bhūyāya means angels. They are not in this material world; *they are transcendentally situated. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate —anyone who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in devotional service: He is above the three modes of material nature. Angel means those who are not affected by the modes of material nature. That is the position of angel. The example can be given, just like in any state there are two department—civil department, criminal department. Those who are not criminals, they are not under the control of the criminal department. Similarly, those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are not controlled by the modes of material nature. So those who are not criminal, they are not controlled by the criminal department. So therefore, although the material nature, the laws are very stringent, still those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, for them there is no such thing as law. *(break) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "Those who are surrendered to Me, they have already transcended the position of being controlled by material nature." Question: (translated) Can you explain why this Kṛṣṇa consciousness has so much success among young people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not only young people. Old men are reluctant, and they are easily taken. If old men take, they will be also successful. It is not restricted to the younger generation—to everyone. But the younger generation, they are receptive, they are blank slate. The old men, they have got so many hodgepodge in their mind, therefore they cannot take easily. That is the difficulty. They have to forget all hodgepodge things, then they have to take. So the process of forgetting is there, but here they are new heart, and they see very nice thing, they accept it. *So anyone can take it, and anyone will be benefited. There is no such thing that it is meant for such*-and-such class of men. No. There is no such thing. Question: (translated) These young people . . . the second question was—these young people have come searching. And why are they searching? Why are these young people searching? Prabhupāda: Well, they are searching because they are frustrated by seeing their parents' life, by their guardians' life. They are frustrated. So that is a good sign. One who is frustrated, he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness very quickly. I was just coming from Moscow. There are many young Russians, they are also very much prepared to take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there is so many restriction. We cannot preach very freely; that is our position. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is now experimented that this movement can be accepted by anyone, any part of the world, and whoever takes it, he will be happy. That's all. (aside) That gentleman, he wants . . . Question: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: His idea is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. Punaḥ punaḥ means "again and again," and that we are preaching. And Kṛṣṇa also is speaking the same thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." And we are teaching that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in one sense we are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Just try to understand: Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." We also say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." So there is no change of words. But anyone who changes the word, he is not representative. Just like if somebody says . . . suppose I say: "Give me a glass of water." And if my disciple says, "Give a glass of water to Prabhupāda," the order is the same. But if somebody says that this Prabhupāda's words, "Give me a glass . . ." "me" can be changed to "milk," that is bogus. That is going on. It should be . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be strictly on the principles of Kṛṣṇa's desire. That was executed by Arjuna. He changed his own principle for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. He did not want to fight; *therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was explained to him, and later on, when Kṛṣṇa enquired, "What you have decided?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall now fight." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One has to change his concocted ideas and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That will benefit; otherwise not. Question: (translated) Are there other names than Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many thousands and millions of names, but "Kṛṣṇa" is the chief name. (break) Question: (translated) He'd like to know if there is actually a living representative of Kṛṣṇa here. And how do you become . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, all of us living representative of Kṛṣṇa, because we are speaking what Kṛṣṇa says. Don't you understand? Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me," and we are saying, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Therefore we are representative. I will give you one example. Just like a businessman sends his representative to sell some particular thing, and the canvasser says, "Please purchase this thing." Therefore he is real representative. We don't say that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" or "Surrender to somebody else" is the same. No. We don't say like that. And how . . . why we say that, we can support. That is our position. Therefore we are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Translator: (asks Prabhupāda to explain what he said) Prabhupāda: If somebody says: "Why you are asking to surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then that we can explain that. We have explained how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa in twelve voluminous books, four hundred pages each. So if anyone wants to understand full philosophy, science, why one should surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there are so many books. But if somebody is fortunate, he can accept our word and surrender to Kṛṣṇa by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is easy and sublime. Question: (translated) Can you arrive at Kṛṣṇa consciousness without having any love for humanity? *Prabhupāda: It is the only process how to love humanity. It is the only process. When Rupa Goswami met Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he designated Him namo mahā*-vadānyāya (CC Madhya 19.53): "The greatest benefactor," kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te , "by Your distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the greatest welfare activity in the whole human society. Question: (translated) Do you consider celibacy as superior to being married in our spiritual order? Prabhupāda: Yes. Celibacy, that is the Vedic system. First of all students are taught not to live by theoretical—by practical. The students were living in gurukula to learn brahmacarya , celibacy, and if the master saw that he is complete in celibacy, he would not allow him to marry. But if he sees that he has got tendency to enjoy this material life, he says that "You go home and get married." The idea was to avoid sex life. But if one cannot, then next automatically he is married. Not illicit sex life. That is most sinful life. Unrestricted sex life is visible just like the hogs, they have got unrestricted sex life; the monkeys. But that is not human life. Human life, even there is necessity of sex life, that should be regulated and restrained. That is human life. Question: (translated) Do you think marriage is necessary? Prabhupāda: Not necessary, but one who cannot avoid sex life, for him it is necessary. Question: (translated) He's saying that do you mean you can have children and not be married? Prabhupāda: Eh? Question: (translated) Does that mean you can have children but not be married? Prabhupāda: (laughter) No, no, no. (laughs) No, no, no. Bachelor, that is not a wanted. Bachelor, that is not wanted. Children must be bona fide; *otherwise they will be called varṇa*-saṅkaraḥ . In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, when there are varṇa-saṅkara , illegitimate children, the whole world becomes hellish. Question: (translated) He would like to know the means that we use every day, practical means that we use to attract people to our Movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. We do our own duty, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Those who are kindly attracted we welcome; otherwise we go on doing our duty. Question: What is the difference between our teaching and the teachings of Maharishi? Prabhupāda: I do not know about Maharishi. We know about our own business. That's all. That's all right. Thank you very much. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 30, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Oh, so what other news? Govinda dāsī: I have just brought you some Mango. Prabhupāda: Ohhh, Hawaii Mango? Govinda dāsī: Yes. This is nice kind. Prabhupāda: Oh? Fruits and flowers. And this morning, Śyāmā devī sent something. (laughs) So our . . . that Sai is keeping all right? Govinda dāsī: He is doing very nice. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . coming later . . . (indistinct) . . . any sincere soul trying to serve Kṛṣṇa, he'll profit. There is no doubt. Simply sincerity wanted. Satya śamo dama titikṣa ārjavam ( BG 18.42). Ārjavam means without any duplicity. Then his advancement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, assured. Kṛṣṇa is very intelligent, He is sitting within. You cannot cheat Him. (laughs) That is not possible. You cannot surpass Him in any way. That is ignorance. And He is the supreme; He surpasses anyone's intelligence. If we want to play a trick with Kṛṣṇa, He understands everything. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26): "I know everything." Māṁ tu veda na kaścana : "I know everyone, but nobody knows Me." That is the statement. So anyone who wants to serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely, his place is secure . . . (indistinct) So here have you got some tulasī ? Govinda dāsī: I have a whole sackful. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I have a whole bag full. I brought them. Prabhupāda: Eh. But can . . . can they be planted here? Govinda dāsī: I didn't bring the plant, I brought the bag. They don't have any plants? They died? They disappeared? Prabhupāda: During winter . . . winter season *Govinda dāsī: They have . . . I have gotten letters from very cold climates, from Seattle. One boy says he has a three*-foot-high one. Prabhupāda: Hum. Govinda dāsī: And the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And they are following their instructions? Govinda dāsī: I think so. I got a letter saying they water too much. Prabhupāda: So you . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many boys and girls, some of them must take care. You teach them. You have done a tremendous service to the Society by introducing tulasī plants. It will be creditable in history—very good service. Govinda dāsī: She just grew. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: She just grew. (laughs) I didn't introduce her; she just grew. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: This big. One boy just came from India. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: Just some boy, hippie. He said that in all of India he hadn't seen such huge tulasī plants. I was surprised, because I thought they were . . . Prabhupāda: There is, in Vṛndāvana. Govinda dāsī: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: This big around, and . . . (indistinct) . . . is in the sun. But in the sun, there is . . . (indistinct) . . . in the shady areas. Prabhupāda: It is a tropical plant. Govinda dāsī: But they have lights, artificial lights . . . Prabhupāda: . . . artificial lights . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . in place of the sun. Prabhupāda: I have seen in London, John Lennon's house, Titten . . . Tittenhurst? Tittenhurst. Tittenhurst Garden. What is "Titten"? Some name? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And "hurst"? Gaurasundara: Mmm. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Garden. So he has got artificial form, electricity, for growing some plants. Govinda dāsī: It can be done. Prabhupāda: He has got a gardener, expert gardener, one man. He was feeding the ashes. Gaurasundara: (indistinct) . . . plants. Prabhupāda: That gardener. All are master gardener. So some way or other tulasī plants must be in every center. Now it is tested. Seattle it is growing. Govinda dāsī: It is much colder in Seattle than in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Still it is growing. Why not? Govinda dāsī: Really! Prabhupāda: Oh. You sent it? No. Govinda dāsī: I sent the seeds and the instructions. Prabhupāda: Ah, they have no seeds? Govinda dāsī: Ah, we have lots of seeds. We have to cut the flowers off every day, or else there will be seeds. We have so many tulasī plants we don't know where to put them. Prabhupāda: I will find that. Govinda dāsī: They are this close together. Prabhupāda: Ah. That's fine. Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara won't let me dig up the front yard, though. I want to dig up the whole front yard (laughs) and make it all tulasī . Gaurasundara: We have on the hill, we planted tulasī . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: Yeah. Gaurasundara: There's on another property. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gaurasundara: We're planting them on the hill. Prabhupāda: Just there? Gaurasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: To get them growing wild. To get them started growing wild. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: So they will start taking over, you know. Because they spread their seed profusely, everywhere. Gaurasundara: They're overcrowding us. Govinda dāsī: You see, whenever the seeds ripened they all fell, and I didn't know that, and I came out one day and there were about 300 baby tulasī . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Govinda dāsī: (laughs) And they were, you know, this close together. So I transplanted some of them, and I don't have places to transplant them all. Prabhupāda: So now you have to find out place. And then, you have got another place? Govinda dāsī: Well, there's a hill which is behind the temple, which is not used by anyone. Prabhupāda: So you can, you can . . . Govinda dāsī: So we are trying to make it take over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Planting them wild. But we water them every day. Prabhupāda: You can send tulasī leaves dried to every center. That will be made for offering. Govinda dāsī: Dried? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Govinda dāsī: Sun*-dried? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Transcendental subject. Govinda dāsī: (sighs) Prabhupāda: There is no question of dry or green. Govinda dāsī: I have brought a big bag of fresh ones for you . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: . . . this time. I could have brought a plant, but I didn't know that they didn't have any. Prabhupāda: Oh. Is this sārī got from India? Govinda dāsī: No, it was given to me by someone. Prabhupāda: Here? No. Govinda dāsī: In Hawaii. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii. From Indian? Govinda dāsī: No, I think it was one of the Haiku . . . Sai's group. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It is American cloth . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It is very late. I couldn't get an earlier plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I couldn't get an earlier plane. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Govinda dāsī: I don't want to keep you from taking rest. Prabhupāda: So your father is funding his daughter? He's being utilized. Your father is gathering some bhakti seeds. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) Prabhupāda: You're doing service to your father. Hmm. Gaurasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: (about Prabhupāda's servants) They want to know if there's anything else. Prabhupāda: That's all. Gaurasundara: (pays obeisances) Prabhupāda: So where is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: I don't know, I've just got here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gaurasundara: She just arrived now. *Govinda dāsī: I haven't talked to anyone except Safa. Siddha*-svarūpa is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Govinda dāsī: Siddha*-svarūpa is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gaurasundara: Everyone is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Now then let it grow everywhere. One, that Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Gaurasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Both husband and wife very nice, very intelligent. Intelligent, very nice wife. The wife is engaged in Deity worship. Oh, Kṛṣṇa . . . unless one is pure in heart, he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *This is the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . One who is completely free from the contamination of material sins, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ . Pāpaṁ means sin; *anta*-gataṁ , finished, all gone. Te , such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā . Dvandva . Dvandva means duality. Nirmuktā . *Dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā knows that everything is display of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy, Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel, Kṛṣṇa's expansion, Kṛṣṇa's plenary portions, incarnation—everything Kṛṣṇa—one can understand when one is freed from all material sins. Te dvandva-moha . This is moha . Moha means to misunderstand that there is anything without Kṛṣṇa. That is moha , illusion. And when one knows that anything I see, this is Kṛṣṇa's, display of Kṛṣṇa's energy . . . just like sunlight: anything in the material world, it is sunlight, due to sunlight. That is scientific. This flower is growing—how it is a different color? This green flower, only . . . (indistinct) . . . and red flower, it is all due to sunlight, reaction of different position of sunlight making this color in the world. Anyone can understand it is scientific: heat and light from the sun is the cause of material cosmic rays. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has two energies: spiritual energy and material energy. And manifestation of His two energies . . . two energies is the whole creation. *So one who understands this is scientific. Dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā : there is no more duality. This is oneness, everything. But at the same time this flower is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is not there. The material world is Kṛṣṇa's, but Kṛṣṇa is not there. Kṛṣṇa is in the spiritual world. So, go on. Somehow or other you have got some touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Develop it by service, that's all, and life is success—all problems solved. So try to assimilate and distribute. With these two, give better service. And assimilate without problem; act nice. Without assimilation one cannot distribute. So even if one does not know how to distribute, he can assimilate personally. So we have got a nice center in Paris also. And Moscow I have been. Many young boys are entering our service, and the government is so demoniac. Always spying, police. Anyone respectable they will ask, "What is your document, you are here? Where is your document?" If you cannot produce any satisfactory document, immediately there will be jail. They are so rascal. And you cannot live in your own way. You cannot get even foodstuff to your choice. You have to accept whatever the government supplies. This is the position. And simply Lenin, Lenin, Lenin. Lenin is their Kṛṣṇa. Not that they want Lenin, but they are being forced. Śyāmasundara was telling that Lenin's face is just like Satan, as described in Kṛṣṇa book. (chuckles) He is a Satan, granted. I don't think he has given any contribution to his country, simply goondaism. Hmm? What is called, goondaism? Called guṇḍā . Govinda dāsī: Aggrand . . . aggrandizement. Prabhupāda: Aggrandizement, of course. Outlaws—is that the proper name? Outlaws? Gaurasundara: Ruffians? Prabhupāda: Ruffian, yes. Guṇḍā —ruffian. Yes. So he was a ruffian. What good thing can he do? He killed the whole family, royal family. One of the daughters of the king, she was supposed to be the most beautiful of the world, and she begged and excused for her life, and she was killed. That is the history of Lenin. So merciless. And in this way they established the Communist government. I don't think that they have got any contribution to the world. What contribution they have? Huh? Any good contribution except ruffianism? What contribution, good contribution? No philosophy, no wise . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not a very good contribution, not at all. Their contribution is ruffianism, that's all. By ruffianism they have overthrown the royalty, monarchy. That's all. But so far their contribution . . . all buildings, big buildings, they were old buildings; they were constructed by the royal order. They have not produced. They have constructed some few skyscrapers recently, we saw . . . (indistinct) That is also in long term. They have become liberal . . . not liberal; they have not so much strict. We are now allowed to be in Moscow. Formerly we were not allowed. But the country, the city is very nice. Better than the Western European cities. But Paris has got still more magnificent buildings. There is a place, Concorde, wonderful buildings all round. You have traveled, Paris? Govinda dāsī: Maybe . . . (indistinct) . . . Paris. I don't remember. Prabhupāda: You have been only in England? Govinda dāsī: No, I have traveled, in Paris, all the countries of Europe except Spain. Prabhupāda: Moscow? Govinda dāsī: No, just Europe, Western Europe. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: Just Western Europe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And Turkey and Greece and Czechoslovakia. Then it was open. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Istanbul. You have been in Istanbul? That is in Turkey. They say that Istanbul is nice city. Govinda dāsī: It is full of mosques. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: It is full of mosques. Prabhupāda: Mosques? Govinda dāsī: Mosques. Prabhupāda: Oh! Govinda dāsī: Mosques, the Muslim mosques. *Prabhupāda: Yes, I see. There in Moscow also, the churches are mosque*-like. That means Muslim culture is there formerly. Govinda dāsī: It is very late, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: It is very late. Prabhupāda: So, what you are taking at night? Devotee: What is that? Prasādam ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: You see, for me, it is not even eight o'clock yet. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: For me it is only 7.45. Prabhupāda: Oh! It is not eating time? Govinda dāsī: It is 7.45 in the evening. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have to wait three hours more. All right, so give her prasādam . (devotees offer obeisances) ( japa ) So what shall I give Govinda dasi? I shall give you something. Take this. Govinda dāsī: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is poison. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) What is it? Prabhupāda: Poison. Govinda dāsī: No, I don't believe that. Is this tulasī , the temples'? Gaurasundara: It is . . . Prabhupāda: Cardamom. Govinda dāsī: Cardamom seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: You eat them whole? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You eat them whole? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Take off the skin and taste. The seed is very nice. That is all right. Now enjoy. Break or chew the seeds, it is very nice. It is digestive. Govinda dāsī: I use it for cooking. Prabhupāda: Flavor your mouth. If one has got bad flavor, this is counteract. Hmm. (break) (end) Conversation -- June 30, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Oh, so what other news? Govinda dāsī: I have just brought you some Mango. Prabhupāda: Ohhh, Hawaii Mango? Govinda dāsī: Yes. This is nice kind. Prabhupāda: Oh? Fruits and flowers. And this morning, Śyāmā devī sent something. (laughs) So our . . . that Sai is keeping all right? Govinda dāsī: He is doing very nice. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . coming later . . . (indistinct) . . . any sincere soul trying to serve Kṛṣṇa, he'll profit. There is no doubt. Simply sincerity wanted. Satya śamo dama titikṣa ārjavam ( BG 18.42). Ārjavam means without any duplicity. Then his advancement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, assured. Kṛṣṇa is very intelligent, He is sitting within. You cannot cheat Him. (laughs) That is not possible. You cannot surpass Him in any way. That is ignorance. And He is the supreme; He surpasses anyone's intelligence. If we want to play a trick with Kṛṣṇa, He understands everything. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26): "I know everything." Māṁ tu veda na kaścana : "I know everyone, but nobody knows Me." That is the statement. So anyone who wants to serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely, his place is secure . . . (indistinct) So here have you got some tulasī ? Govinda dāsī: I have a whole sackful. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I have a whole bag full. I brought them. Prabhupāda: Eh. But can . . . can they be planted here? Govinda dāsī: I didn't bring the plant, I brought the bag. They don't have any plants? They died? They disappeared? Prabhupāda: During winter . . . winter season *Govinda dāsī: They have . . . I have gotten letters from very cold climates, from Seattle. One boy says he has a three*-foot-high one. Prabhupāda: Hum. Govinda dāsī: And the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And they are following their instructions? Govinda dāsī: I think so. I got a letter saying they water too much. Prabhupāda: So you . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many boys and girls, some of them must take care. You teach them. You have done a tremendous service to the Society by introducing tulasī plants. It will be creditable in history—very good service. Govinda dāsī: She just grew. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: She just grew. (laughs) I didn't introduce her; she just grew. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: This big. One boy just came from India. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: Just some boy, hippie. He said that in all of India he hadn't seen such huge tulasī plants. I was surprised, because I thought they were . . . Prabhupāda: There is, in Vṛndāvana. Govinda dāsī: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: This big around, and . . . (indistinct) . . . is in the sun. But in the sun, there is . . . (indistinct) . . . in the shady areas. Prabhupāda: It is a tropical plant. Govinda dāsī: But they have lights, artificial lights . . . Prabhupāda: . . . artificial lights . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . in place of the sun. Prabhupāda: I have seen in London, John Lennon's house, Titten . . . Tittenhurst? Tittenhurst. Tittenhurst Garden. What is "Titten"? Some name? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And "hurst"? Gaurasundara: Mmm. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Garden. So he has got artificial form, electricity, for growing some plants. Govinda dāsī: It can be done. Prabhupāda: He has got a gardener, expert gardener, one man. He was feeding the ashes. Gaurasundara: (indistinct) . . . plants. Prabhupāda: That gardener. All are master gardener. So some way or other tulasī plants must be in every center. Now it is tested. Seattle it is growing. Govinda dāsī: It is much colder in Seattle than in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Still it is growing. Why not? Govinda dāsī: Really! Prabhupāda: Oh. You sent it? No. Govinda dāsī: I sent the seeds and the instructions. Prabhupāda: Ah, they have no seeds? Govinda dāsī: Ah, we have lots of seeds. We have to cut the flowers off every day, or else there will be seeds. We have so many tulasī plants we don't know where to put them. Prabhupāda: I will find that. Govinda dāsī: They are this close together. Prabhupāda: Ah. That's fine. Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara won't let me dig up the front yard, though. I want to dig up the whole front yard (laughs) and make it all tulasī . Gaurasundara: We have on the hill, we planted tulasī . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: Yeah. Gaurasundara: There's on another property. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gaurasundara: We're planting them on the hill. Prabhupāda: Just there? Gaurasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: To get them growing wild. To get them started growing wild. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: So they will start taking over, you know. Because they spread their seed profusely, everywhere. Gaurasundara: They're overcrowding us. Govinda dāsī: You see, whenever the seeds ripened they all fell, and I didn't know that, and I came out one day and there were about 300 baby tulasī . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Govinda dāsī: (laughs) And they were, you know, this close together. So I transplanted some of them, and I don't have places to transplant them all. Prabhupāda: So now you have to find out place. And then, you have got another place? Govinda dāsī: Well, there's a hill which is behind the temple, which is not used by anyone. Prabhupāda: So you can, you can . . . Govinda dāsī: So we are trying to make it take over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Planting them wild. But we water them every day. Prabhupāda: You can send tulasī leaves dried to every center. That will be made for offering. Govinda dāsī: Dried? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Govinda dāsī: Sun*-dried? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Transcendental subject. Govinda dāsī: (sighs) Prabhupāda: There is no question of dry or green. Govinda dāsī: I have brought a big bag of fresh ones for you . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: . . . this time. I could have brought a plant, but I didn't know that they didn't have any. Prabhupāda: Oh. Is this sārī got from India? Govinda dāsī: No, it was given to me by someone. Prabhupāda: Here? No. Govinda dāsī: In Hawaii. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii. From Indian? Govinda dāsī: No, I think it was one of the Haiku . . . Sai's group. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It is American cloth . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It is very late. I couldn't get an earlier plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I couldn't get an earlier plane. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Govinda dāsī: I don't want to keep you from taking rest. Prabhupāda: So your father is funding his daughter? He's being utilized. Your father is gathering some bhakti seeds. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) Prabhupāda: You're doing service to your father. Hmm. Gaurasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: (about Prabhupāda's servants) They want to know if there's anything else. Prabhupāda: That's all. Gaurasundara: (pays obeisances) Prabhupāda: So where is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: I don't know, I've just got here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gaurasundara: She just arrived now. *Govinda dāsī: I haven't talked to anyone except Safa. Siddha*-svarūpa is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Govinda dāsī: Siddha*-svarūpa is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gaurasundara: Everyone is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Now then let it grow everywhere. One, that Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Gaurasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Both husband and wife very nice, very intelligent. Intelligent, very nice wife. The wife is engaged in Deity worship. Oh, Kṛṣṇa . . . unless one is pure in heart, he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *This is the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . One who is completely free from the contamination of material sins, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ . Pāpaṁ means sin; *anta*-gataṁ , finished, all gone. Te , such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā . Dvandva . Dvandva means duality. Nirmuktā . *Dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā knows that everything is display of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy, Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel, Kṛṣṇa's expansion, Kṛṣṇa's plenary portions, incarnation—everything Kṛṣṇa—one can understand when one is freed from all material sins. Te dvandva-moha . This is moha . Moha means to misunderstand that there is anything without Kṛṣṇa. That is moha , illusion. And when one knows that anything I see, this is Kṛṣṇa's, display of Kṛṣṇa's energy . . . just like sunlight: anything in the material world, it is sunlight, due to sunlight. That is scientific. This flower is growing—how it is a different color? This green flower, only . . . (indistinct) . . . and red flower, it is all due to sunlight, reaction of different position of sunlight making this color in the world. Anyone can understand it is scientific: heat and light from the sun is the cause of material cosmic rays. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has two energies: spiritual energy and material energy. And manifestation of His two energies . . . two energies is the whole creation. *So one who understands this is scientific. Dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā : there is no more duality. This is oneness, everything. But at the same time this flower is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is not there. The material world is Kṛṣṇa's, but Kṛṣṇa is not there. Kṛṣṇa is in the spiritual world. So, go on. Somehow or other you have got some touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Develop it by service, that's all, and life is success—all problems solved. So try to assimilate and distribute. With these two, give better service. And assimilate without problem; act nice. Without assimilation one cannot distribute. So even if one does not know how to distribute, he can assimilate personally. So we have got a nice center in Paris also. And Moscow I have been. Many young boys are entering our service, and the government is so demoniac. Always spying, police. Anyone respectable they will ask, "What is your document, you are here? Where is your document?" If you cannot produce any satisfactory document, immediately there will be jail. They are so rascal. And you cannot live in your own way. You cannot get even foodstuff to your choice. You have to accept whatever the government supplies. This is the position. And simply Lenin, Lenin, Lenin. Lenin is their Kṛṣṇa. Not that they want Lenin, but they are being forced. Śyāmasundara was telling that Lenin's face is just like Satan, as described in Kṛṣṇa book. (chuckles) He is a Satan, granted. I don't think he has given any contribution to his country, simply goondaism. Hmm? What is called, goondaism? Called guṇḍā . Govinda dāsī: Aggrand . . . aggrandizement. Prabhupāda: Aggrandizement, of course. Outlaws—is that the proper name? Outlaws? Gaurasundara: Ruffians? Prabhupāda: Ruffian, yes. Guṇḍā —ruffian. Yes. So he was a ruffian. What good thing can he do? He killed the whole family, royal family. One of the daughters of the king, she was supposed to be the most beautiful of the world, and she begged and excused for her life, and she was killed. That is the history of Lenin. So merciless. And in this way they established the Communist government. I don't think that they have got any contribution to the world. What contribution they have? Huh? Any good contribution except ruffianism? What contribution, good contribution? No philosophy, no wise . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not a very good contribution, not at all. Their contribution is ruffianism, that's all. By ruffianism they have overthrown the royalty, monarchy. That's all. But so far their contribution . . . all buildings, big buildings, they were old buildings; they were constructed by the royal order. They have not produced. They have constructed some few skyscrapers recently, we saw . . . (indistinct) That is also in long term. They have become liberal . . . not liberal; they have not so much strict. We are now allowed to be in Moscow. Formerly we were not allowed. But the country, the city is very nice. Better than the Western European cities. But Paris has got still more magnificent buildings. There is a place, Concorde, wonderful buildings all round. You have traveled, Paris? Govinda dāsī: Maybe . . . (indistinct) . . . Paris. I don't remember. Prabhupāda: You have been only in England? Govinda dāsī: No, I have traveled, in Paris, all the countries of Europe except Spain. Prabhupāda: Moscow? Govinda dāsī: No, just Europe, Western Europe. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: Just Western Europe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And Turkey and Greece and Czechoslovakia. Then it was open. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Istanbul. You have been in Istanbul? That is in Turkey. They say that Istanbul is nice city. Govinda dāsī: It is full of mosques. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: It is full of mosques. Prabhupāda: Mosques? Govinda dāsī: Mosques. Prabhupāda: Oh! Govinda dāsī: Mosques, the Muslim mosques. *Prabhupāda: Yes, I see. There in Moscow also, the churches are mosque*-like. That means Muslim culture is there formerly. Govinda dāsī: It is very late, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: It is very late. Prabhupāda: So, what you are taking at night? Devotee: What is that? Prasādam ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: You see, for me, it is not even eight o'clock yet. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: For me it is only 7.45. Prabhupāda: Oh! It is not eating time? Govinda dāsī: It is 7.45 in the evening. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have to wait three hours more. All right, so give her prasādam . (devotees offer obeisances) ( japa ) So what shall I give Govinda dasi? I shall give you something. Take this. Govinda dāsī: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is poison. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) What is it? Prabhupāda: Poison. Govinda dāsī: No, I don't believe that. Is this tulasī , the temples'? Gaurasundara: It is . . . Prabhupāda: Cardamom. Govinda dāsī: Cardamom seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: You eat them whole? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You eat them whole? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Take off the skin and taste. The seed is very nice. That is all right. Now enjoy. Break or chew the seeds, it is very nice. It is digestive. Govinda dāsī: I use it for cooking. Prabhupāda: Flavor your mouth. If one has got bad flavor, this is counteract. Hmm. (break) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . 100 dollars? (laughs) Govinda dāsī: This is for my daddy, for my material father. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, your father is still . . . still bluff. (laughs) You are asking as beloved child, and it is going to Kṛṣṇa. (Govinda dāsī laughs) Prabhupāda: So cut the man . . . mangoes. What is called? Gaurasundara: Crease? Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Ah! Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have so many mangoes in Hawaii, you could take these and eat these for days. Prabhupāda: This is so nice mangoes. Govinda dāsī: We eat dozens of them. Prabhupāda: Simply by seeing, one is satisfied. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) Ah! . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hawaii is full of this mango? Gaurasundara: Yes, this is mango season. For maybe one, two months, there is more than you can eat. Govinda dāsī: Each devotee eats nothing but mangoes for breakfast. Nothing but mangoes. Prabhupāda: And he does not make sick? Gaurasundara: No, no. Govinda dāsī: No. I eat five. Some people eat twelve. Gaurasundara: They are used. Prabhupāda: Twelve mangoes? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: Some of the brahmacārīs eat at least twelve or fifteen mangoes. Gaurasundara: Twenty. Their faces are all yellow, all the time, with the mangoes. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) They sit down and they will eat as long as they have the time. And we have so many that they are rotting. It's a shame, we cannot even eat them all. Prabhupāda: Cut all these mangoes and distribute. Gaurasundara: All these mangoes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Ah! You have to have some too. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I don't say that. So keep these mangoes. Take this knife, cut all the mangoes and distribute. Offer to the Deity here. Gaurasundara: These can be offered? Prabhupāda: Eh? You can take, or Govinda dāsī can take. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gaurasundara: I'm going to get another plate to put the mangoes on. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaurasundara: I can get another plate to put the mangoes on. Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara bought one truck for $300. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: He bought one large truck—huge; the bed as long as that room—for $300, and the brahmacārīs and him, they fixed it up, painted it very nicely. Prabhupāda: Ah, eh. You carried me in one bus when I was last here, there? Gaurasundara: Yes, a truck. Bigger, much bigger. Prabhupāda: Same truck? Gaurasundara: No, much bigger than that. Govinda dāsī: No. Much bigger. Gaurasundara: We used it for some time, then we sold it and made profit, $550 profit. Govinda dāsī: We sold it for 850, 850, and we bought it for 300. Gaurasundara: Oh, we did several. This is from our used car business. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: We sold several trucks. We bought them and sold them and made twice as much money. Prabhupāda: How you do it? Gaurasundara: We just . . . just paint it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: Paint it. Gaurasundara: Paint it and clean it and fixed it a little bit on the motor. Govinda dāsī: And we use them for saṅkīrtana . Gaurasundara: And we use it while . . . while we're working on it. We use it as much as we like and then sell it. *Govinda dāsī: On Ratha*-yātrā that very truck that brought us $800, we took it, the boys, we decorated it with flowers. *Prabhupāda: You also performed Ratha*-yātrā? Govinda dāsī: Yes, Gaurasundara was here. *Gaurasundara: Not exactly Ratha*-yātrā. We had a, a parade, and we went down with the truck and brought the people to the temple. Prabhupāda: Now you should introduce some ceremony, big ceremony. And you make all. Govinda dāsī: It was nice. We brought 28 people back in the truck, plus all our devotees. So you can see it was a big truck. Prabhupāda: So Hawaii is developing nicely. You work so hard, I know. (laughs) You are going fifty miles to work, both husband and wife. Govinda dāsī: No, we don't do that even. He works very hard, but I am very sick now . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: We don't work outside, you know. Prabhupāda: No, at that time . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Oh, yeah. Govinda dāsī: You saved us. Prabhupāda: At that time I was thinking, "Oh, how these poor boys are working so hard." Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whole day and night. Gaurasundara: (laughs) I was first of all working two jobs in Hawaii—one in the daytime, one in the night. Not good. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Govinda dāsī: You told us, "Stop working, Kṛṣṇa will take care of everything." Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And we did that. Gaurasundara: Oh, yeah. Govinda dāsī: And Kṛṣṇa has taken care of everything. Simply fate. Prabhupāda: That I am confident. (laughs) Otherwise I could not work personally. I had to do so much, big trouble. Hawaii is blessed land. I have seen that. Such a nice island. Sufficient mangoes, sufficient papaya, sufficient coconut. Gaurasundara: Coconut, banana—there are many fruits. Prabhupāda: Flowers also. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So your, er, monthly payment is going regularly? (aside) You keep it there. Gaurasundara: Keep it on the plate? Prabhupāda: Keep it there, and then distribute to all the devotees. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Gaurasundara also? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Gaurasundara is also a devotee. (laughter) Govinda dāsī: (indistinct) . . . Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why he should be bereft of? Gaurasundara: So you mean the Back to Godhead payment? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: You said something about monthly payment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: Back to Godhead ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. We are paying, but we are not distributing so much. But we are increasing. Prabhupāda: What is the reason? (aside) Take those parts. Gaurasundara: There is . . . there is in winter season not so many people. Now summer is here. Prabhupāda: It is winter now? Govinda dāsī: It's increasing. Gaurasundara: No, now it is summer. In fact our Back to Godhead distribution has gone up three times in the last week. Tripled. So I think during summer season it will be nice. Prabhupāda: Summer season, how . . . Gaurasundara: Everybody comes to visit Hawaii in summer. Govinda dāsī: It is sunny and warm, and people are on the street. But in winter it rains all the time. Not all the time, but there is not as many people, and . . . Gaurasundara: So we are improving. Prabhupāda: When we first went there it was the month of March. It was raining. Gaurasundara: That last time you were there it was nice. Prabhupada: This . . . that was with others. Last time when I went it was other. (pause) So how do you find Los Angeles temple? Gaurasundara: It's very nice. Govinda dāsī: So many devotees. Gaurasundara: It was so nice and clean, and everything going on nicely. *Prabhupāda: Cleanliness is the real sign of temple. Tan*-mandira-mārjanādau. *This is the test. Śrī*-vigraha , the Deity. (aside) That is sufficient. Or you can take more, distribute among devotees? Devotee: Ah, all the devotees. Prabhupāda: At least one piece. Devotee: Most devotees are on saṅkīrtana . Devotees on saṅkīrtana . There are only a few devotees in the temple. Prabhupāda: How many? Devotee: In the temple now? Prabhupāda: First of all go and distribute this. Devotee: Maybe ten. Prabhupāda: Go and distribute. *Govinda dāsī: Can I move this a bit closer to you? It has a built*-in microphone. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much. Govinda dāsī: The Deities . . . did Gaurasundara Prabhu tell you that they . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, I will point out the color. Gaurasundara: Yeah. Govinda dāsī: I have painted Lord Nityānanda. Gaurasundara: She has not yet completed painting on the eyes and so forth, but, er, she has almost finished. Govinda dāsī: The color that you have pointed out is about the color of Lord Caitanya. I mean it is the color that I painted. But that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Both of Them are of the same color. Hmm? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, you have painted already? Govinda dāsī: No, it is just one coat. It can be removed very easily. Prabhupāda: Oh, you . . . you can . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: It can be changed very easily. Gaurasundara: Yeah, it is very easy, the paint. Govinda dāsī: All I have to do is just scrub it with turpentine. Prabhupāda: So is it possible to make many pairs like that? Govinda dāsī: Yes, it is possible. But first I have to know . . . you have to see Them and make sure that They are proper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: This is the only thing. Prabhupāda: Why don't you send me some more photographs? Govinda dāsī: I have some, but they're not very good. Prabhupāda: Not good, or . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: She has . . . you have the film? Govinda dāsī: Yeah . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: She has some film, and if she has it with her we can have it developed, and in one or two days you can see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: It doesn't have the eyes painted. Govinda dāsī: It doesn't have . . . Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. I want to see the statue, how it is. Govinda dāsī: The problem that I feel . . . the arms are only this high. The ones are like this, and the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Govinda dāsī: Well, that this is how they are, because the clay . . . when I made the original one, I had them a little higher, but the weight of the clay was, ah, a little bit . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, there is no support inside? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. The finished one is not in clay; it is in clay mache. It is very hard, and it is so lightweight that it can be shipped anywhere. Very lightweight. Prabhupāda: Ah. Shipped, but it must be packed nicely. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: It won't break very . . . it is not brittle when it is finished. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: It is not like clay. *Prabhupāda: So as, ah, here, just Gaura*-Nitāi? *Gaurasundara: You want for here also Gaura*-Nitāi? *Prabhupāda: Yes, for everywhere. Everywhere Gaura*-Nitāi. Govinda dāsī: Is it possible for you to come and maybe see Them . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: . . . before . . .? I don't want to make Them and . . . that wouldn't be right. I can make changes, whatever changes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: If They are as you say. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . big, eh? (laughs) Gaurasundara: No, They are quite large. Govinda dāsī: This tall. Prabhupāda: Four feet? Gaurasundara: Four feet. Govinda dāsī: Four feet. Prabhupāda: That's nice. And how much space do They take, both brothers? Govinda dāsī: Their arms stick out this far. (aside) This far? And They are this high. And if . . . and Their arms, if they are interlocked, I mean, you know . . . put your arm up. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: If they are like this, about this much space. Prabhupāda: Enough. Sufficient. Gaurasundara: Could be less if you wanted. Govinda dāsī: It depends on how close together you put Them and how much you interlock Their arms. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: But Their arms are perfectly bilateral, you know, just like . . . and the face and hands are together with the thumbs like this, and Their feet are standing straight, with the feet just together, like this. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Govinda dāsī: Face forward. Gaurasundara: We will bring to you, in a few days. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Your old machine is working? Sony? Govinda dāsī: Yes, we had to have it fixed recently. Prabhupāda: Hmm. He wanted more? Take. Govinda dāsī: They probably . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: They're coming out of the corners. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: I've never seen so many devotees, but all of a sudden they have appeared. Prabhupāda: Hmm, then make it . . . Gaurasundara: Make smaller. Prabhupāda: Yes, take out. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you got this pan? Gaurasundara: In the kitchen. Prabhupāda: Oh, in our kitchen? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: This temple is suitable for our purpose. Everything is in correct position: the temple, the residential quarter, my quarter, lecture room, parking place—everything in order. The bank is near; the post office is near; highway . . . highway or freeway? They call freeway? Gaurasundara: Yes, freeway. Prabhupāda: There are two freeways nearby. There is hospital also near. Very central. Everything is there. (pause) There is no jackfruit? Gaurasundara: I am not sure. What is . . . is there another name for jackfruit? Govinda dāsī: It's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: I saw a picture of it in an India . . . Gaurasundara: I think there is not. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Generally when there is mango there is jackfruit also. They are two cousin*-brothers. Gaurasundara: Ah. It grows on a tree? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: It grows on a tree like mango? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jackfruit grow in Bengal. More than Bengal—Assam, that's all. Gaurasundara: They have . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Big. Gaurasundara: Oh! (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Spikes. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: If we got seeds we could plant them here; we could grow them here. Prabhupāda: And it lasts for many years. It does not die. Just like banyan tree, and continually produces fruit. In Bombay also there is. Everywhere, in India everywhere, but especially in Bengal. Actually, during mango season Bengalis, they eat mango and jackfruit, a little milk. With mango you should drink a little milk; otherwise it will be indigested. Sometime, movement of the bowel, if too much taken - but if you take a little milk it counteracts. (pause) What is the name of that quarter where you have heard the new record? Gaurasundara: Ah, which? That big one on Apple? Prabhupāda: Yes, that one. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: It is to be played on our radio show. Prabhupāda: Hah? Govinda dāsī: It is to be played on our radio show this week. *Prabhupāda: Ah. They are advertising the record with my picture and Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Many. Govinda dāsī: Big posters? Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Big posters. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Gaurasundara: Ah, billboards. Govinda dāsī: Oh, billboards? Gaurasundara: In San Francisco, when I first arrived . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: . . . I was surprised. I looked up and there was this big picture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: All billboards should have such things. I have never seen it. Prabhupāda: George is chanting also. He is always coming, like child, grandchild. (laughs) I told you in the beginning that, "Let him chant, don't disturb." (laughs) Hmm. How many of them are there in your temple? Gaurasundara: Only about three, four, I think. Prabhupāda: And others? Gaurasundara: They were there before, and they have gone since then. There was about fifteen, sixteen others. Most of the Sai's old disciples have gone to other centers all over the world. Prabhupāda: Oh, so he had a big camp. Govinda dāsī: There were. There were about fifteen disciples, he had fifteen. Prabhupāda: They are also cultivating Kṛṣṇa. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That was their advantage. Kṛṣṇa helped them. (referring to tape recorder) This is also Sony? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. What did you pay for it? Govinda dāsī: It was a gift. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: It was given to us. Prabhupāda: Somebody here? Who gave? Govinda dāsī: The, eh, one of Sai's people. They . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: They brought . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sai is a rich man's son? Gaurasundara: His father was a doctor. He got the wealth. They managed somehow to raise the money from his father. Prabhupāda: So his father comes to see him. No? Gaurasundara: His father is a Communist. He doesn't like us. Prabhupāda: Ah, Communist. He is Communist? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: He's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But the Communist idea is prohibited in U.S. Gaurasundara: Yeah. He's not very well liked, well, because he's, ah, he's, ah, considered crazy. He endorses Communism. Prabhupāda: Ah. So what does he do? Gaurasundara: He's a retired doctor now. He simply . . . Prabhupāda: He died? Gaurasundara: No, no. He simply sits in his house; he doesn't do anything. Prabhupāda: He does not practice? Gaurasundara: No, he has retired. He simply sits there and he reads some Communist books, like that. Prabhupāda: Communist book is available here? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. They can't restrict what can be said. Prabhupāda: Communist party is prohibited. Gaurasundara: Yes, but the books they can't restrict. Govinda dāsī: Their names have to be listed. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Don't they? Their names have to be listed. Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman? Benjamin Franklin, No? Gaurasundara: What does it say? Yes, that is Franklin. Prabhupāda: Franklin, yes. He was a scientist? Gaurasundara: He was, yes. He invented something. Prabhupāda: Electricity? Gaurasundara: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Gaurasundara: Yeah, there is a story, you know. He had a kite, and the lightning struck on the kite, and there was a wire went down, and the electricity traveled through the wire. Prabhupāda: There was some fire? Gaurasundara: He proved that lightning was electricity. Yes. I spoke to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They have got very nice article about me in Washington. He gives me a place genuine, and he condemns Maharishi. Gaurasundara: I saw in the bookstore that Maharishi's books are being sold 80% discount. They were stacked on a table. (laughs) That means they weren't finished. Prabhupāda: Eighty percent discount? Gaurasundara: Yes. (laughs) That means they were worthless. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Worthless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Eighty percent discount? Still people are not purchasing? Gaurasundara: No, that's why they simply want to clear it off. They are trying to give it away. Who is this? Very nice. (pause) Prabhupāda: So Los Angeles, we are getting mango? . . . (indistinct) . . . Hawaii mango. Govinda dāsī: They just fly them over. Prabhupāda: Imported from Hawaii? Gaurasundara: Ah, yes, I think. Prabhupāda: At what price they are sold? Govinda dāsī: In Hawaii? Gaurasundara: In Hawaii? Prabhupāda: They are not sold? Gaurasundara: In Hawaii? No, they are free. Prabhupāda: Free? Gaurasundara: Oh, as much as you like. Prabhupāda: Ācchā! Gaurasundara: Any man, you go to his house, "Can I pick mango?" "Oh, bring bucket." Govinda dāsī: On saṅkīrtana an old couple drove up, opened their truck and brought out two crates of mangoes. Gaurasundara: Yeah, they bring them to us, "Please take." They are falling on the grass. Govinda dāsī: We rake them up also. *Gaurasundara: No, the people don't eat much mangoes. They are meat*-eaters now. Govinda dāsī: The children eat mangoes. *Prabhupāda: Meat*-eaters cannot eat fruits, milk—no taste for them. Russia also the same. They eat too much meat, they don't like vegetables and fruits. Govinda dāsī: And can you get them there? Prabhupāda: No. Very rare. You cannot get even good rice. (pause; eating) They do not make any preparation of mango? And any use for pineapple? Gaurasundara: No. You mean canning or something? Prabhupāda: They do not? No. Gaurasundara: The Chinese make a mango candy. Govinda dāsī: Mango pickle, and mango, er, dried mango. Gaurasundara: Yes, dried mangoes, like candies. Govinda dāsī: Exactly. I made you some mango pickle. It's soaking in mustard oil now. Gaurasundara: They make also mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I have a big jar of mango pickle soaking in mustard oil. For one year it has been soaking in mustard oil. Probably the older it gets, the better. I would have brought it, but I was in such a rush to get here. Prabhupāda: Did you eat it? Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. I'm saving it for you. Prabhupāda: No, you can eat, with purī . With purī . . . Gaurasundara: Hah. Prabhupāda: . . . take some mango, with little salt. You don't require any vegetable, it is so nice. Gaurasundara: Mango chutney? Govinda dāsī: We make mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Mango chutney or pickle. Gaurasundara: Oh, mango pickle, yes. Govinda dāsī: Every week in our feast we have mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Very good. Govinda dāsī: If it is free, cheapest thing we can make. Prabhupāda: Mango chutney made of green mango is better. Govinda dāsī: That is generally what we make. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Lately we have been doing mango preserves, making with ripe, because there are so many ripe mangoes all the season almost. Prabhupāda: No, this ripe mango, they can be pulped and dried in the sun. Is it time? Govinda dāsī: Yes, I am going to try again now that the hot season has come. Just in the last few weeks it has been hot. You cook it a little while with a little salt first? Prabhupāda: I have no practically, but it is simple. Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: It does not keep long. It does not keep. But if you dry in the sun. Govinda dāsī: Well, whenever we have dried it, it went rancid. Prabhupāda: You did not cut it? Govinda dāsī: Maybe the sun was not hot enough for it those times. I think the sun has to be very hot. It is much hotter in India than it is in Hawaii. We were burning a few years ago when Maharishi Mahesh Yogi . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He is cheating . . . (indistinct) . . . he's a rascal, and offended many Vaiṣṇavas. George was after him . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: George started this whole thing. Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore he was doing concert to these students. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the beginning. (pause) . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Some frosting: sugar, butter, coconut, milk. Prabhupāda: Whatever we do, milk preparation must be there; otherwise it is not so good. (pause) Good . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hah? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yeah. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: They have to be put in . . . (indistinct) . . . right? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: (indistinct) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . 100 dollars? (laughs) Govinda dāsī: This is for my daddy, for my material father. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, your father is still . . . still bluff. (laughs) You are asking as beloved child, and it is going to Kṛṣṇa. (Govinda dāsī laughs) Prabhupāda: So cut the man . . . mangoes. What is called? Gaurasundara: Crease? Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Ah! Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have so many mangoes in Hawaii, you could take these and eat these for days. Prabhupāda: This is so nice mangoes. Govinda dāsī: We eat dozens of them. Prabhupāda: Simply by seeing, one is satisfied. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) Ah! . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hawaii is full of this mango? Gaurasundara: Yes, this is mango season. For maybe one, two months, there is more than you can eat. Govinda dāsī: Each devotee eats nothing but mangoes for breakfast. Nothing but mangoes. Prabhupāda: And he does not make sick? Gaurasundara: No, no. Govinda dāsī: No. I eat five. Some people eat twelve. Gaurasundara: They are used. Prabhupāda: Twelve mangoes? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: Some of the brahmacārīs eat at least twelve or fifteen mangoes. Gaurasundara: Twenty. Their faces are all yellow, all the time, with the mangoes. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) They sit down and they will eat as long as they have the time. And we have so many that they are rotting. It's a shame, we cannot even eat them all. Prabhupāda: Cut all these mangoes and distribute. Gaurasundara: All these mangoes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Ah! You have to have some too. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I don't say that. So keep these mangoes. Take this knife, cut all the mangoes and distribute. Offer to the Deity here. Gaurasundara: These can be offered? Prabhupāda: Eh? You can take, or Govinda dāsī can take. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gaurasundara: I'm going to get another plate to put the mangoes on. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaurasundara: I can get another plate to put the mangoes on. Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara bought one truck for $300. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: He bought one large truck—huge; the bed as long as that room—for $300, and the brahmacārīs and him, they fixed it up, painted it very nicely. Prabhupāda: Ah, eh. You carried me in one bus when I was last here, there? Gaurasundara: Yes, a truck. Bigger, much bigger. Prabhupāda: Same truck? Gaurasundara: No, much bigger than that. Govinda dāsī: No. Much bigger. Gaurasundara: We used it for some time, then we sold it and made profit, $550 profit. Govinda dāsī: We sold it for 850, 850, and we bought it for 300. Gaurasundara: Oh, we did several. This is from our used car business. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: We sold several trucks. We bought them and sold them and made twice as much money. Prabhupāda: How you do it? Gaurasundara: We just . . . just paint it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: Paint it. Gaurasundara: Paint it and clean it and fixed it a little bit on the motor. Govinda dāsī: And we use them for saṅkīrtana . Gaurasundara: And we use it while . . . while we're working on it. We use it as much as we like and then sell it. *Govinda dāsī: On Ratha*-yātrā that very truck that brought us $800, we took it, the boys, we decorated it with flowers. *Prabhupāda: You also performed Ratha*-yātrā? Govinda dāsī: Yes, Gaurasundara was here. *Gaurasundara: Not exactly Ratha*-yātrā. We had a, a parade, and we went down with the truck and brought the people to the temple. Prabhupāda: Now you should introduce some ceremony, big ceremony. And you make all. Govinda dāsī: It was nice. We brought 28 people back in the truck, plus all our devotees. So you can see it was a big truck. Prabhupāda: So Hawaii is developing nicely. You work so hard, I know. (laughs) You are going fifty miles to work, both husband and wife. Govinda dāsī: No, we don't do that even. He works very hard, but I am very sick now . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: We don't work outside, you know. Prabhupāda: No, at that time . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Oh, yeah. Govinda dāsī: You saved us. Prabhupāda: At that time I was thinking, "Oh, how these poor boys are working so hard." Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whole day and night. Gaurasundara: (laughs) I was first of all working two jobs in Hawaii—one in the daytime, one in the night. Not good. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Govinda dāsī: You told us, "Stop working, Kṛṣṇa will take care of everything." Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And we did that. Gaurasundara: Oh, yeah. Govinda dāsī: And Kṛṣṇa has taken care of everything. Simply fate. Prabhupāda: That I am confident. (laughs) Otherwise I could not work personally. I had to do so much, big trouble. Hawaii is blessed land. I have seen that. Such a nice island. Sufficient mangoes, sufficient papaya, sufficient coconut. Gaurasundara: Coconut, banana—there are many fruits. Prabhupāda: Flowers also. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So your, er, monthly payment is going regularly? (aside) You keep it there. Gaurasundara: Keep it on the plate? Prabhupāda: Keep it there, and then distribute to all the devotees. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Gaurasundara also? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Gaurasundara is also a devotee. (laughter) Govinda dāsī: (indistinct) . . . Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why he should be bereft of? Gaurasundara: So you mean the Back to Godhead payment? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: You said something about monthly payment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: Back to Godhead ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. We are paying, but we are not distributing so much. But we are increasing. Prabhupāda: What is the reason? (aside) Take those parts. Gaurasundara: There is . . . there is in winter season not so many people. Now summer is here. Prabhupāda: It is winter now? Govinda dāsī: It's increasing. Gaurasundara: No, now it is summer. In fact our Back to Godhead distribution has gone up three times in the last week. Tripled. So I think during summer season it will be nice. Prabhupāda: Summer season, how . . . Gaurasundara: Everybody comes to visit Hawaii in summer. Govinda dāsī: It is sunny and warm, and people are on the street. But in winter it rains all the time. Not all the time, but there is not as many people, and . . . Gaurasundara: So we are improving. Prabhupāda: When we first went there it was the month of March. It was raining. Gaurasundara: That last time you were there it was nice. Prabhupada: This . . . that was with others. Last time when I went it was other. (pause) So how do you find Los Angeles temple? Gaurasundara: It's very nice. Govinda dāsī: So many devotees. Gaurasundara: It was so nice and clean, and everything going on nicely. *Prabhupāda: Cleanliness is the real sign of temple. Tan*-mandira-mārjanādau. *This is the test. Śrī*-vigraha , the Deity. (aside) That is sufficient. Or you can take more, distribute among devotees? Devotee: Ah, all the devotees. Prabhupāda: At least one piece. Devotee: Most devotees are on saṅkīrtana . Devotees on saṅkīrtana . There are only a few devotees in the temple. Prabhupāda: How many? Devotee: In the temple now? Prabhupāda: First of all go and distribute this. Devotee: Maybe ten. Prabhupāda: Go and distribute. *Govinda dāsī: Can I move this a bit closer to you? It has a built*-in microphone. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much. Govinda dāsī: The Deities . . . did Gaurasundara Prabhu tell you that they . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, I will point out the color. Gaurasundara: Yeah. Govinda dāsī: I have painted Lord Nityānanda. Gaurasundara: She has not yet completed painting on the eyes and so forth, but, er, she has almost finished. Govinda dāsī: The color that you have pointed out is about the color of Lord Caitanya. I mean it is the color that I painted. But that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Both of Them are of the same color. Hmm? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, you have painted already? Govinda dāsī: No, it is just one coat. It can be removed very easily. Prabhupāda: Oh, you . . . you can . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: It can be changed very easily. Gaurasundara: Yeah, it is very easy, the paint. Govinda dāsī: All I have to do is just scrub it with turpentine. Prabhupāda: So is it possible to make many pairs like that? Govinda dāsī: Yes, it is possible. But first I have to know . . . you have to see Them and make sure that They are proper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: This is the only thing. Prabhupāda: Why don't you send me some more photographs? Govinda dāsī: I have some, but they're not very good. Prabhupāda: Not good, or . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: She has . . . you have the film? Govinda dāsī: Yeah . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: She has some film, and if she has it with her we can have it developed, and in one or two days you can see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: It doesn't have the eyes painted. Govinda dāsī: It doesn't have . . . Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. I want to see the statue, how it is. Govinda dāsī: The problem that I feel . . . the arms are only this high. The ones are like this, and the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Govinda dāsī: Well, that this is how they are, because the clay . . . when I made the original one, I had them a little higher, but the weight of the clay was, ah, a little bit . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, there is no support inside? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. The finished one is not in clay; it is in clay mache. It is very hard, and it is so lightweight that it can be shipped anywhere. Very lightweight. Prabhupāda: Ah. Shipped, but it must be packed nicely. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: It won't break very . . . it is not brittle when it is finished. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: It is not like clay. *Prabhupāda: So as, ah, here, just Gaura*-Nitāi? *Gaurasundara: You want for here also Gaura*-Nitāi? *Prabhupāda: Yes, for everywhere. Everywhere Gaura*-Nitāi. Govinda dāsī: Is it possible for you to come and maybe see Them . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: . . . before . . .? I don't want to make Them and . . . that wouldn't be right. I can make changes, whatever changes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: If They are as you say. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . big, eh? (laughs) Gaurasundara: No, They are quite large. Govinda dāsī: This tall. Prabhupāda: Four feet? Gaurasundara: Four feet. Govinda dāsī: Four feet. Prabhupāda: That's nice. And how much space do They take, both brothers? Govinda dāsī: Their arms stick out this far. (aside) This far? And They are this high. And if . . . and Their arms, if they are interlocked, I mean, you know . . . put your arm up. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: If they are like this, about this much space. Prabhupāda: Enough. Sufficient. Gaurasundara: Could be less if you wanted. Govinda dāsī: It depends on how close together you put Them and how much you interlock Their arms. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: But Their arms are perfectly bilateral, you know, just like . . . and the face and hands are together with the thumbs like this, and Their feet are standing straight, with the feet just together, like this. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Govinda dāsī: Face forward. Gaurasundara: We will bring to you, in a few days. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Your old machine is working? Sony? Govinda dāsī: Yes, we had to have it fixed recently. Prabhupāda: Hmm. He wanted more? Take. Govinda dāsī: They probably . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: They're coming out of the corners. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: I've never seen so many devotees, but all of a sudden they have appeared. Prabhupāda: Hmm, then make it . . . Gaurasundara: Make smaller. Prabhupāda: Yes, take out. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you got this pan? Gaurasundara: In the kitchen. Prabhupāda: Oh, in our kitchen? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: This temple is suitable for our purpose. Everything is in correct position: the temple, the residential quarter, my quarter, lecture room, parking place—everything in order. The bank is near; the post office is near; highway . . . highway or freeway? They call freeway? Gaurasundara: Yes, freeway. Prabhupāda: There are two freeways nearby. There is hospital also near. Very central. Everything is there. (pause) There is no jackfruit? Gaurasundara: I am not sure. What is . . . is there another name for jackfruit? Govinda dāsī: It's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: I saw a picture of it in an India . . . Gaurasundara: I think there is not. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Generally when there is mango there is jackfruit also. They are two cousin*-brothers. Gaurasundara: Ah. It grows on a tree? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: It grows on a tree like mango? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jackfruit grow in Bengal. More than Bengal—Assam, that's all. Gaurasundara: They have . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Big. Gaurasundara: Oh! (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Spikes. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: If we got seeds we could plant them here; we could grow them here. Prabhupāda: And it lasts for many years. It does not die. Just like banyan tree, and continually produces fruit. In Bombay also there is. Everywhere, in India everywhere, but especially in Bengal. Actually, during mango season Bengalis, they eat mango and jackfruit, a little milk. With mango you should drink a little milk; otherwise it will be indigested. Sometime, movement of the bowel, if too much taken - but if you take a little milk it counteracts. (pause) What is the name of that quarter where you have heard the new record? Gaurasundara: Ah, which? That big one on Apple? Prabhupāda: Yes, that one. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: It is to be played on our radio show. Prabhupāda: Hah? Govinda dāsī: It is to be played on our radio show this week. *Prabhupāda: Ah. They are advertising the record with my picture and Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Many. Govinda dāsī: Big posters? Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Big posters. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Gaurasundara: Ah, billboards. Govinda dāsī: Oh, billboards? Gaurasundara: In San Francisco, when I first arrived . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: . . . I was surprised. I looked up and there was this big picture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: All billboards should have such things. I have never seen it. Prabhupāda: George is chanting also. He is always coming, like child, grandchild. (laughs) I told you in the beginning that, "Let him chant, don't disturb." (laughs) Hmm. How many of them are there in your temple? Gaurasundara: Only about three, four, I think. Prabhupāda: And others? Gaurasundara: They were there before, and they have gone since then. There was about fifteen, sixteen others. Most of the Sai's old disciples have gone to other centers all over the world. Prabhupāda: Oh, so he had a big camp. Govinda dāsī: There were. There were about fifteen disciples, he had fifteen. Prabhupāda: They are also cultivating Kṛṣṇa. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That was their advantage. Kṛṣṇa helped them. (referring to tape recorder) This is also Sony? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. What did you pay for it? Govinda dāsī: It was a gift. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: It was given to us. Prabhupāda: Somebody here? Who gave? Govinda dāsī: The, eh, one of Sai's people. They . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: They brought . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sai is a rich man's son? Gaurasundara: His father was a doctor. He got the wealth. They managed somehow to raise the money from his father. Prabhupāda: So his father comes to see him. No? Gaurasundara: His father is a Communist. He doesn't like us. Prabhupāda: Ah, Communist. He is Communist? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: He's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But the Communist idea is prohibited in U.S. Gaurasundara: Yeah. He's not very well liked, well, because he's, ah, he's, ah, considered crazy. He endorses Communism. Prabhupāda: Ah. So what does he do? Gaurasundara: He's a retired doctor now. He simply . . . Prabhupāda: He died? Gaurasundara: No, no. He simply sits in his house; he doesn't do anything. Prabhupāda: He does not practice? Gaurasundara: No, he has retired. He simply sits there and he reads some Communist books, like that. Prabhupāda: Communist book is available here? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. They can't restrict what can be said. Prabhupāda: Communist party is prohibited. Gaurasundara: Yes, but the books they can't restrict. Govinda dāsī: Their names have to be listed. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Don't they? Their names have to be listed. Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman? Benjamin Franklin, No? Gaurasundara: What does it say? Yes, that is Franklin. Prabhupāda: Franklin, yes. He was a scientist? Gaurasundara: He was, yes. He invented something. Prabhupāda: Electricity? Gaurasundara: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Gaurasundara: Yeah, there is a story, you know. He had a kite, and the lightning struck on the kite, and there was a wire went down, and the electricity traveled through the wire. Prabhupāda: There was some fire? Gaurasundara: He proved that lightning was electricity. Yes. I spoke to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They have got very nice article about me in Washington. He gives me a place genuine, and he condemns Maharishi. Gaurasundara: I saw in the bookstore that Maharishi's books are being sold 80% discount. They were stacked on a table. (laughs) That means they weren't finished. Prabhupāda: Eighty percent discount? Gaurasundara: Yes. (laughs) That means they were worthless. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Worthless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Eighty percent discount? Still people are not purchasing? Gaurasundara: No, that's why they simply want to clear it off. They are trying to give it away. Who is this? Very nice. (pause) Prabhupāda: So Los Angeles, we are getting mango? . . . (indistinct) . . . Hawaii mango. Govinda dāsī: They just fly them over. Prabhupāda: Imported from Hawaii? Gaurasundara: Ah, yes, I think. Prabhupāda: At what price they are sold? Govinda dāsī: In Hawaii? Gaurasundara: In Hawaii? Prabhupāda: They are not sold? Gaurasundara: In Hawaii? No, they are free. Prabhupāda: Free? Gaurasundara: Oh, as much as you like. Prabhupāda: Ācchā! Gaurasundara: Any man, you go to his house, "Can I pick mango?" "Oh, bring bucket." Govinda dāsī: On saṅkīrtana an old couple drove up, opened their truck and brought out two crates of mangoes. Gaurasundara: Yeah, they bring them to us, "Please take." They are falling on the grass. Govinda dāsī: We rake them up also. *Gaurasundara: No, the people don't eat much mangoes. They are meat*-eaters now. Govinda dāsī: The children eat mangoes. *Prabhupāda: Meat*-eaters cannot eat fruits, milk—no taste for them. Russia also the same. They eat too much meat, they don't like vegetables and fruits. Govinda dāsī: And can you get them there? Prabhupāda: No. Very rare. You cannot get even good rice. (pause; eating) They do not make any preparation of mango? And any use for pineapple? Gaurasundara: No. You mean canning or something? Prabhupāda: They do not? No. Gaurasundara: The Chinese make a mango candy. Govinda dāsī: Mango pickle, and mango, er, dried mango. Gaurasundara: Yes, dried mangoes, like candies. Govinda dāsī: Exactly. I made you some mango pickle. It's soaking in mustard oil now. Gaurasundara: They make also mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I have a big jar of mango pickle soaking in mustard oil. For one year it has been soaking in mustard oil. Probably the older it gets, the better. I would have brought it, but I was in such a rush to get here. Prabhupāda: Did you eat it? Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. I'm saving it for you. Prabhupāda: No, you can eat, with purī . With purī . . . Gaurasundara: Hah. Prabhupāda: . . . take some mango, with little salt. You don't require any vegetable, it is so nice. Gaurasundara: Mango chutney? Govinda dāsī: We make mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Mango chutney or pickle. Gaurasundara: Oh, mango pickle, yes. Govinda dāsī: Every week in our feast we have mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Very good. Govinda dāsī: If it is free, cheapest thing we can make. Prabhupāda: Mango chutney made of green mango is better. Govinda dāsī: That is generally what we make. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Lately we have been doing mango preserves, making with ripe, because there are so many ripe mangoes all the season almost. Prabhupāda: No, this ripe mango, they can be pulped and dried in the sun. Is it time? Govinda dāsī: Yes, I am going to try again now that the hot season has come. Just in the last few weeks it has been hot. You cook it a little while with a little salt first? Prabhupāda: I have no practically, but it is simple. Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: It does not keep long. It does not keep. But if you dry in the sun. Govinda dāsī: Well, whenever we have dried it, it went rancid. Prabhupāda: You did not cut it? Govinda dāsī: Maybe the sun was not hot enough for it those times. I think the sun has to be very hot. It is much hotter in India than it is in Hawaii. We were burning a few years ago when Maharishi Mahesh Yogi . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He is cheating . . . (indistinct) . . . he's a rascal, and offended many Vaiṣṇavas. George was after him . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: George started this whole thing. Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore he was doing concert to these students. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the beginning. (pause) . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Some frosting: sugar, butter, coconut, milk. Prabhupāda: Whatever we do, milk preparation must be there; otherwise it is not so good. (pause) Good . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hah? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yeah. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: They have to be put in . . . (indistinct) . . . right? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: (indistinct) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 2, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: The fighting must be there, but that does not mean separation. I fought with my wife all along, yes, but there is no question of separation. I have . . . I have since made provision for my wife . . . (indistinct) . . . so one must be responsible. Marriage is not a joke. Govinda dāsī: In this country it is such a joke that it is hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . of marriage, there must be some struggle, but the marriage is required. They have introduced new . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: We have never had a single marriage in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: We have never had a single marriage in Hawaii, although we have been here two and a half years. Prabhupāda: Why? Govinda dāsī: I guess because . . . (laughs) I don't know. No one wants to get married. Because it's a serious thing, it is not taken lightly. (break) Prabhupāda: Why did not . . . (indistinct) (break) Gaurasundara: Fourth of July, Independence Day weekend, so . . . Prabhupāda: Independence Day you are free? Gaurasundara: No. But there's so much traveling that it becomes too . . . Prabhupāda: Crowded. Gaurasundara: Yes. So perhaps we will wait. Govinda dāsī: 'Til Monday. Gaurasundara: Until Monday. Prabhupāda: There is very much crowd? Gaurasundara: Pretty much. Prabhupāda: People are coming or going? Gaurasundara: Coming and going. Prabhupāda: Everywhere this Independence Day will be observed? Gaurasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: It is American Independence. Prabhupāda: But it is observed in New York especially, no everywhere? Gaurasundara: Not particularly. In Hawaii they are shooting off firecrackers all night. Everywhere, everybody is throwing firecrackers. Govinda dāsī: It sounds like a war, and it smells like gun smoke. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: It sounds like a war . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: . . . in Hawaii. It is so bad, firecrackers going all the time, it sounds just like a war. And you smell the powder, gunpowder. Prabhupāda: Everywhere? Govinda dāsī: No, especially in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hawaii was included when America declared independence? Gaurasundara: Oh, no. About five years ago. No, I think it was . . . I think it was 1960 it became a state. Prabhupāda: 1960. Gaurasundara: There was 48 states for a long time, and then about the last 10 years, Hawaii and Alaska were added, made 50. Prabhupāda: At that time, before that, Hawaii was under some king? Gaurasundara: No, Hawaii was a territory. It was a United States Territory, but it wasn't attached to the United States. Prabhupāda: Territory means, er, conquered? Gaurasundara: Well, it was . . . Prabhupāda: Occupied by force. Gaurasundara: Well, it was purchased, purchased from Russia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: No, that was Alaska. Gaurasundara: Oh, Hawaii was . . . yes it was, more or less taken over by Americans. It was also a territory. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . tomorrow is also . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Yes, maybe . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yes, tomorrow is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: At what time? I wish I had known . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is this called? . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Do you need a new sweater, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: Do you need a new sweater? Prabhupāda: I have got many. Govinda dāsī: Ah, never mind. Prabhupāda: Sweater I have got many now. Gaurasundara: One. Govinda dāsī: One. Is it that saffron one? Prabhupāda: I got . . . last year I got over one dozen. Gaurasundara: But not here. Govinda dāsī: You gave them all away. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: You gave them all away. (laughs) Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I distributed some in London; I distributed some here. (Govinda dāsī laughs) Devotee: And in India there are still many. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: In Bombay there are still many. There are so many clothes in Bombay from the devotees. One . . . one girl here, she was asking what she could make for you. And I suggested that she should make a sweater. And she . . . (indistinct) . . . the devotee that come in . . . come in said please . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. The spirit is nice. Devotee: So I told one girl . . . Prabhupāda: To do something, to serve something, that is the way of understanding Kṛṣṇa. When you have the service attitude, then Kṛṣṇa becomes pleased. Whole process is service, according to one's capacity. So it is not required in that one has to serve in this way or that way. No. The spirit should be service to the best capacity. Take, for example, I came here with a service position, that I must give some service to my Guru Mahārāja, not that I thought of success. But the spirit was that Guru Mahārāja told me I must do something, whatever I can. It may be failure; it may be success—let me try. This service spirit is the only goal. There is no other way. *You must be a servant—either you're a servant of māyā , or the senses, or Kṛṣṇa. You cannot become master. We are all servant. The so*-called karmīs are servant of their senses, that's all. They're working so hard, being servant of their senses. The karmīs , they are servant of sex, that's all. That is their encouragement: they are working so hard, they will enjoy sex. That is their only solace. Is that not? What other things they have got to enjoy? The are simply suffering, simply suffering, working hard; their only satisfaction is enjoying sex. That is the center: the servant of sex. All karmīs . *Not only karmīs , everyone—all animals, all beasts, everyone—servant of sex. And the human so*-called civilization, they have made arrangement: big sex interest. They are advertising sex, their theater is sex, their club is sex, their home is sex. What do they know beyond sex? So they are servant of sex. Is it not? Servant of sex, senses. Sex is the ultimate sense, but there are many other senses. Tongue is sense, ear is sense, nose is sense, eyes are sense. Eh? Then genital is sense. The sense organs, different. So everyone is servant. Somebody is servant of Kṛṣṇa, somebody is servant of sex. If you remain servant of the senses, you are never happy. If you became servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . you have to remain servant; you cannot be master. Rather, if you serve Kṛṣṇa then you become master of your senses. That is gosvāmī . To become servant of Kṛṣṇa means master of senses. So the senses cannot now order, "You do this." "No, I am engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Therefore he becomes master. Then he becomes gosvāmī . Go means senses, svāmī means master. When you become master of the senses, then you're gosvāmī . And when you become servant of the senses, you are godāsa . Now our whole process is to become servant of Kṛṣṇa so that automatically I become master of the senses. There is no separatedness. One becomes servant of the king, he gets a post, master of the citizens. Is it not? Minister, big post, secretary. He becomes servant of the king or state but becomes master of the people, governor. So if you become servant of Kṛṣṇa, you become master. Otherwise you remain servant of senses. If somebody says that, "What is the wrong to remain servant of the senses? After all, I am servant. Instead of becoming servant of Kṛṣṇa, if I remain servant of senses, what is the wrong? Tell me." Govinda dāsī: They are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: They are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the . . . Govinda dāsī: They are never . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: A little service to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is so kind and He is so much satisfied. And here, you go on serving . . . they're never satisfied. The servant of the world is said that he . . . my practical example, that I have made provisions for my wife and children so they can simply eat and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but still they want me to become their servant. So dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . hmm? Even if you keep them very nicely, still they will require your service.What does he do, what . . . (indistinct) . . . never happy. You cannot make happy, māyā's servant. But if you give little service to Kṛṣṇa, He immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . and immense profit. The māyā is so strong that you go on the best service, life long, we still we will find no satisfaction. Therefore the service attitude is the only process to elevate oneself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this automatically. Why these girls and these boys, why you are all trying to serve? That is natural. It is natural. Kṛṣṇa is not directly contacted, so Kṛṣṇa's representative that, that attitude, "Let me serve to the servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is good policy. And we have to accept this. We cannot deny it. The service spirit will be . . . otherwise I don't require anyone's service, by living alone. And now we are creating so many servants of Kṛṣṇa, when they offer some service, we accept . . . (indistinct) Actually I don't require service; I can remain alone. I was doing that, (laughs) actually. But when preaching was there, the creating servant of Kṛṣṇa, then I have to accept, to encourage them, to train them. That is spiritual master's business. But the service is accepted on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, not for personal benefit. I cannot accept any service for my personal account unless I serve Kṛṣṇa. I serve Kṛṣṇa means I make you a perfect servant of Kṛṣṇa. So I have to train. That is my . . . Gaurasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I cut up one of these mangoes for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Come on. Very good. Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation with Gaurasundara) Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that? Gaurasundara: Govinda dāsī suggested that I peel like this, because sometimes there are some worms. Prabhupāda: Worms? Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do they have worms in them in India? There is a little bug. It stings the skin, and if it stings the skin there may be some tiny, tiny worms. Gaurasundara: I should peel the whole? Prabhupāda: No. Gaurasundara: Peel it off? Govinda dāsī: He can't eat it like this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) That's how we eat it in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: I am expecting . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: They might do it. They have done it before. No more? You want me to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Govinda dāsī: (laughing) It's the sweetest sweetball I've ever had. Prabhupāda: Yes. Who has made it? Gaurasundara: I think Śilāvatī. Prabhupāda: Śilāvatī is good cook . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Would you like for me to cut it? *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . in mango season, my father used to purchase a full basket. In India they are sold in baskets. They were very cheap in those days. Three rupees, a big basket at least containing more than hundred mangoes, first*-class mangoes. Otherwise one rupee, two rupees. So in our childhood we take each mango, and while playing, we were eating like this, in this way. Govinda dāsī: The children in Hawaii, they are always eating mangoes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Their faces are always yellow from eating. Prabhupāda: I remember I was traveling with my father . . . (indistinct) . . . a train, and he gave me a big mango. At that time I was small, so all sides had become moist with mango juice, and when it is dried up, I was feeling so much inconvenience, but there was no water. Finally, I knew how to undo it. I remember that precarious time. (pause) Govinda dāsī: That's how we eat them in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: That's how we eat them in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: I prefer to eat them that way. Gaurasundara will not eat them unless they are cut into little pieces. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: I prefer to eat them like that. But Gaurasundara will not eat mangoes unless they are cut into little pieces. They are juicy. Prabhupāda: How Kṛṣṇa has arranged. How is nicely cut, it is total juice. Still they cannot keep all. Govinda dāsī: They come in such abundance, just during the heat of the sun. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: They come in such abundance, just during the heat of the sun or whatever such fruit is needed. Prabhupāda: In Russia there was no mango, no fruit or nectar. Whatever you have prepared, you have to take from government's store. Stand up in the line, wait for one hour, two hours. And for meat, you can get easily. (long pause) Manufacture such a nice thing in your factories. Then you say that there is no God. In the name of becoming scientist they are so fools and rascals. What do you think? Do you admit or not? Gaurasundara: Yes. They sent . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Gaurasundara: Did you know the Russians sent three men to space for twenty*-four days? Did you hear that? Prabhupāda: I was . . . I was hearing from Karandhara. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What happened? They are dead. Gaurasundara: Yes. They were talking with them on the radio, and everything nice, and then when they landed they opened the capsule and they were dead. And they thought perhaps that's why they died. They think because they were in weightless condition, they could not return any more to the earth's surface. Prabhupāda: All nonsense. What is the benefit of sending a man in that condition? Simply propaganda. Unlearned. In that senseless way, why they come back on this planet? Why not other planet? What was the idea? Gaurasundara: Oh, they want to establish a space station. They want to build like a building up in space, floating around the earth. Govinda dāsī: They've completely lost their minds. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: They've completely lost their minds. They don't even know their ideas anymore . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa tried to make a staircase for going directly to heaven, it is like that. Rāvaṇa said that, "Why there should be religious life for going to heaven?" Just like they are also challenging that, "Why one should be religious, godly, for being elevated to the heavenly planets? We shall go by missile." That is their plan. So this challenge of Rāvaṇa class of men is always there. You cannot conquer the laws of God or nature by Rāvaṇa's mentality. That is not possible. You can try, but it will never be successful. So the result is instead of establishing a platform, they establish a dying. That is the natural result. But still they are proud of their science. Why don't you write? Gaurasundara: Yes, I should write. Prabhupāda: And they cannot explain why he died. What is the advancement? What is the next . . . or what is the actual result of this expedition? Gaurasundara: They become very depressed. Prabhupāda: They have written? Gaurasundara: Yes. The whole Russian nation is shocked. Prabhupāda: Then they will be depressed more and more. Your Lenin or Stalin cannot save you. They await more depression. In a godless country you will simply be depressed. Note it down. Māyā bhraṣṭa divesena . When one becomes too much attached to the influence of māyā , they talk like that and become disappointed. Again attempt, another; again disappointment. There is a story in India. There is a province, Orissa. The people of that province are very cowardly. There is a story of the Orissan man that one man, he was quarreling with him, so he challenged him, "All right, you have said you can slap me. Slap me. All right. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . slap me." So he slapped in this way. "Oh, you have slapped me. All right, you have slapped this side. I see you have slapped this side, again you slap this side." Still he said: "All right, you have slapped enough. You can slap . . . can you can slap my son?" and slap. So the slapping is going on, and still he is challenging. These rascals are like this. Nature's slapping is going on, "All right, now better this attempt, and this attempt, this attempt." Exactly the same theory after . . . (indistinct) . . . in every item they are being failure, but still, "All right. Slap me. Attempt like this." The Americans, they advertise they have gone, and they brought some dust, without any profit. They are also proud. And the Russians, they are killing so many men, and afterwards they are proud. "All right, this was failure. All right, try again." The same slapping process. Nature is slapping, seriously, but still, "All right, you have slapped in this way. Can you slap like this?" . . . (indistinct) They are so shameless, shameless rascals. They have no shame even that, "we have been proved, useless. You stop this rascaldom." No. They will, "Another. Slap me in this way." That I have seen. This is going on. In every respect they are being slapped, but still challenging, "All right, you can slap. You can slap me in this way." We have . . . (indistinct) Why they have become successful? Still they are proud of their learning. Simply wasting time and teaching others to waste time. This is going on. From time in memorial, Rāvaṇa's society like this. Hiraṇyakaśipu tried to become immortal. So these attempts are going on perpetually, but history proves that nobody has become successful. When this news came? Gaurasundara: The one yesterday? Prabhupāda: Hmm. What was the heading? Gaurasundara: "Three die in space." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: In the Bible also there is somebody who tried to build a tower of Babel. Prabhupāda: What is that story? Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Gaurasundara: They tried to build one tower to Heaven Prabhupāda: Ah. And what happened? Gaurasundara: It failed. The whole thing broke. Govinda dāsī: It smashed. Prabhupāda: (aside) What is that? *Devotee: Śacī*-suta prabhu requests that you chant on some new beads for him. Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee: He said he lost his old tulāsi beads a year ago, and he needed some others. That's why he asked. Also there is one set of beads from one prabhu on saṅkīrtana . (aside) So you like Gaura-śakti prabhu . Prabhupāda: So I am enjoying this mango in this way. Devotee: I am enjoying mangoes, so many mangoes. Can I ask you one more question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about these initiations? Tomorrow's the last batch. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: There are (counting) three, four, five, six . . . there are eight for . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Devotee: There are eight for harināma initiation and nine for gāyatrī , but one of the names for gāyatrī is Loka*-mālā, which you have just initiated, either today or yesterday, Loka-mālā. But she is supposed to be married to one boy who is a brāhmin this Sunday coming. She is supposed to be married to one boy who is a brāhmin , and so they are recommending her for second. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: When she is . . . (indistinct) Devotee: She is going to be married this coming Sunday. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Devotee: That is all right? Prabhupāda: So building up the platform in space is faster? Gaurasundara: Yes. If they go up, they cannot come back again. They have to stay there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gaurasundara: If they go out and live on that platform, they cannot return again to earth. Because their heart can no longer pump; it becomes lazy, and when they return to the gravity the heart is smashed. So it means that if they go up there, then they have to stay. Prabhupāda: That proposition is nonsense. Either they can stay, and if they come, they die. That is good proposition. (laughter) Why not stay here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Like that. But your position is that, "You go, we cannot stay there. We have to come back." And if you come back you die. So why not they should stay and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and then prepare yourself to go to the highest planets, or any other planet? *Kṛṣṇa can give you any other planet you like. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja wanted his father's kingdom, so Kṛṣṇa gave him . . . (indistinct) . . . gave him the polestar. That is Dhruva Mahārāja's kingdom. Kṛṣṇa can give you anything you want. Why you bother yourself with that? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So we are the most intelligent persons in the world, because we don't take such foolish trouble, but we are assured through injuction of the best planet, or wherever we want to go. So the mūḍhā , they will not accept this. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). They will never become Kṛṣṇa conscious, because they are rascals. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ , duṣkṛtinaḥ . They are always sinful, eating meat. They cannot do this. They will travel like . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 2, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: The fighting must be there, but that does not mean separation. I fought with my wife all along, yes, but there is no question of separation. I have . . . I have since made provision for my wife . . . (indistinct) . . . so one must be responsible. Marriage is not a joke. Govinda dāsī: In this country it is such a joke that it is hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . of marriage, there must be some struggle, but the marriage is required. They have introduced new . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: We have never had a single marriage in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: We have never had a single marriage in Hawaii, although we have been here two and a half years. Prabhupāda: Why? Govinda dāsī: I guess because . . . (laughs) I don't know. No one wants to get married. Because it's a serious thing, it is not taken lightly. (break) Prabhupāda: Why did not . . . (indistinct) (break) Gaurasundara: Fourth of July, Independence Day weekend, so . . . Prabhupāda: Independence Day you are free? Gaurasundara: No. But there's so much traveling that it becomes too . . . Prabhupāda: Crowded. Gaurasundara: Yes. So perhaps we will wait. Govinda dāsī: 'Til Monday. Gaurasundara: Until Monday. Prabhupāda: There is very much crowd? Gaurasundara: Pretty much. Prabhupāda: People are coming or going? Gaurasundara: Coming and going. Prabhupāda: Everywhere this Independence Day will be observed? Gaurasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: It is American Independence. Prabhupāda: But it is observed in New York especially, no everywhere? Gaurasundara: Not particularly. In Hawaii they are shooting off firecrackers all night. Everywhere, everybody is throwing firecrackers. Govinda dāsī: It sounds like a war, and it smells like gun smoke. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: It sounds like a war . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: . . . in Hawaii. It is so bad, firecrackers going all the time, it sounds just like a war. And you smell the powder, gunpowder. Prabhupāda: Everywhere? Govinda dāsī: No, especially in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hawaii was included when America declared independence? Gaurasundara: Oh, no. About five years ago. No, I think it was . . . I think it was 1960 it became a state. Prabhupāda: 1960. Gaurasundara: There was 48 states for a long time, and then about the last 10 years, Hawaii and Alaska were added, made 50. Prabhupāda: At that time, before that, Hawaii was under some king? Gaurasundara: No, Hawaii was a territory. It was a United States Territory, but it wasn't attached to the United States. Prabhupāda: Territory means, er, conquered? Gaurasundara: Well, it was . . . Prabhupāda: Occupied by force. Gaurasundara: Well, it was purchased, purchased from Russia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: No, that was Alaska. Gaurasundara: Oh, Hawaii was . . . yes it was, more or less taken over by Americans. It was also a territory. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . tomorrow is also . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Yes, maybe . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yes, tomorrow is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: At what time? I wish I had known . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is this called? . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Do you need a new sweater, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: Do you need a new sweater? Prabhupāda: I have got many. Govinda dāsī: Ah, never mind. Prabhupāda: Sweater I have got many now. Gaurasundara: One. Govinda dāsī: One. Is it that saffron one? Prabhupāda: I got . . . last year I got over one dozen. Gaurasundara: But not here. Govinda dāsī: You gave them all away. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: You gave them all away. (laughs) Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I distributed some in London; I distributed some here. (Govinda dāsī laughs) Devotee: And in India there are still many. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: In Bombay there are still many. There are so many clothes in Bombay from the devotees. One . . . one girl here, she was asking what she could make for you. And I suggested that she should make a sweater. And she . . . (indistinct) . . . the devotee that come in . . . come in said please . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. The spirit is nice. Devotee: So I told one girl . . . Prabhupāda: To do something, to serve something, that is the way of understanding Kṛṣṇa. When you have the service attitude, then Kṛṣṇa becomes pleased. Whole process is service, according to one's capacity. So it is not required in that one has to serve in this way or that way. No. The spirit should be service to the best capacity. Take, for example, I came here with a service position, that I must give some service to my Guru Mahārāja, not that I thought of success. But the spirit was that Guru Mahārāja told me I must do something, whatever I can. It may be failure; it may be success—let me try. This service spirit is the only goal. There is no other way. *You must be a servant—either you're a servant of māyā , or the senses, or Kṛṣṇa. You cannot become master. We are all servant. The so*-called karmīs are servant of their senses, that's all. They're working so hard, being servant of their senses. The karmīs , they are servant of sex, that's all. That is their encouragement: they are working so hard, they will enjoy sex. That is their only solace. Is that not? What other things they have got to enjoy? The are simply suffering, simply suffering, working hard; their only satisfaction is enjoying sex. That is the center: the servant of sex. All karmīs . *Not only karmīs , everyone—all animals, all beasts, everyone—servant of sex. And the human so*-called civilization, they have made arrangement: big sex interest. They are advertising sex, their theater is sex, their club is sex, their home is sex. What do they know beyond sex? So they are servant of sex. Is it not? Servant of sex, senses. Sex is the ultimate sense, but there are many other senses. Tongue is sense, ear is sense, nose is sense, eyes are sense. Eh? Then genital is sense. The sense organs, different. So everyone is servant. Somebody is servant of Kṛṣṇa, somebody is servant of sex. If you remain servant of the senses, you are never happy. If you became servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . you have to remain servant; you cannot be master. Rather, if you serve Kṛṣṇa then you become master of your senses. That is gosvāmī . To become servant of Kṛṣṇa means master of senses. So the senses cannot now order, "You do this." "No, I am engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Therefore he becomes master. Then he becomes gosvāmī . Go means senses, svāmī means master. When you become master of the senses, then you're gosvāmī . And when you become servant of the senses, you are godāsa . Now our whole process is to become servant of Kṛṣṇa so that automatically I become master of the senses. There is no separatedness. One becomes servant of the king, he gets a post, master of the citizens. Is it not? Minister, big post, secretary. He becomes servant of the king or state but becomes master of the people, governor. So if you become servant of Kṛṣṇa, you become master. Otherwise you remain servant of senses. If somebody says that, "What is the wrong to remain servant of the senses? After all, I am servant. Instead of becoming servant of Kṛṣṇa, if I remain servant of senses, what is the wrong? Tell me." Govinda dāsī: They are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: They are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the . . . Govinda dāsī: They are never . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: A little service to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is so kind and He is so much satisfied. And here, you go on serving . . . they're never satisfied. The servant of the world is said that he . . . my practical example, that I have made provisions for my wife and children so they can simply eat and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but still they want me to become their servant. So dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . hmm? Even if you keep them very nicely, still they will require your service.What does he do, what . . . (indistinct) . . . never happy. You cannot make happy, māyā's servant. But if you give little service to Kṛṣṇa, He immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . and immense profit. The māyā is so strong that you go on the best service, life long, we still we will find no satisfaction. Therefore the service attitude is the only process to elevate oneself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this automatically. Why these girls and these boys, why you are all trying to serve? That is natural. It is natural. Kṛṣṇa is not directly contacted, so Kṛṣṇa's representative that, that attitude, "Let me serve to the servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is good policy. And we have to accept this. We cannot deny it. The service spirit will be . . . otherwise I don't require anyone's service, by living alone. And now we are creating so many servants of Kṛṣṇa, when they offer some service, we accept . . . (indistinct) Actually I don't require service; I can remain alone. I was doing that, (laughs) actually. But when preaching was there, the creating servant of Kṛṣṇa, then I have to accept, to encourage them, to train them. That is spiritual master's business. But the service is accepted on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, not for personal benefit. I cannot accept any service for my personal account unless I serve Kṛṣṇa. I serve Kṛṣṇa means I make you a perfect servant of Kṛṣṇa. So I have to train. That is my . . . Gaurasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I cut up one of these mangoes for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Come on. Very good. Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation with Gaurasundara) Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that? Gaurasundara: Govinda dāsī suggested that I peel like this, because sometimes there are some worms. Prabhupāda: Worms? Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do they have worms in them in India? There is a little bug. It stings the skin, and if it stings the skin there may be some tiny, tiny worms. Gaurasundara: I should peel the whole? Prabhupāda: No. Gaurasundara: Peel it off? Govinda dāsī: He can't eat it like this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) That's how we eat it in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: I am expecting . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: They might do it. They have done it before. No more? You want me to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Govinda dāsī: (laughing) It's the sweetest sweetball I've ever had. Prabhupāda: Yes. Who has made it? Gaurasundara: I think Śilāvatī. Prabhupāda: Śilāvatī is good cook . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Would you like for me to cut it? *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . in mango season, my father used to purchase a full basket. In India they are sold in baskets. They were very cheap in those days. Three rupees, a big basket at least containing more than hundred mangoes, first*-class mangoes. Otherwise one rupee, two rupees. So in our childhood we take each mango, and while playing, we were eating like this, in this way. Govinda dāsī: The children in Hawaii, they are always eating mangoes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Their faces are always yellow from eating. Prabhupāda: I remember I was traveling with my father . . . (indistinct) . . . a train, and he gave me a big mango. At that time I was small, so all sides had become moist with mango juice, and when it is dried up, I was feeling so much inconvenience, but there was no water. Finally, I knew how to undo it. I remember that precarious time. (pause) Govinda dāsī: That's how we eat them in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: That's how we eat them in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: I prefer to eat them that way. Gaurasundara will not eat them unless they are cut into little pieces. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: I prefer to eat them like that. But Gaurasundara will not eat mangoes unless they are cut into little pieces. They are juicy. Prabhupāda: How Kṛṣṇa has arranged. How is nicely cut, it is total juice. Still they cannot keep all. Govinda dāsī: They come in such abundance, just during the heat of the sun. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: They come in such abundance, just during the heat of the sun or whatever such fruit is needed. Prabhupāda: In Russia there was no mango, no fruit or nectar. Whatever you have prepared, you have to take from government's store. Stand up in the line, wait for one hour, two hours. And for meat, you can get easily. (long pause) Manufacture such a nice thing in your factories. Then you say that there is no God. In the name of becoming scientist they are so fools and rascals. What do you think? Do you admit or not? Gaurasundara: Yes. They sent . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Gaurasundara: Did you know the Russians sent three men to space for twenty*-four days? Did you hear that? Prabhupāda: I was . . . I was hearing from Karandhara. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What happened? They are dead. Gaurasundara: Yes. They were talking with them on the radio, and everything nice, and then when they landed they opened the capsule and they were dead. And they thought perhaps that's why they died. They think because they were in weightless condition, they could not return any more to the earth's surface. Prabhupāda: All nonsense. What is the benefit of sending a man in that condition? Simply propaganda. Unlearned. In that senseless way, why they come back on this planet? Why not other planet? What was the idea? Gaurasundara: Oh, they want to establish a space station. They want to build like a building up in space, floating around the earth. Govinda dāsī: They've completely lost their minds. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: They've completely lost their minds. They don't even know their ideas anymore . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa tried to make a staircase for going directly to heaven, it is like that. Rāvaṇa said that, "Why there should be religious life for going to heaven?" Just like they are also challenging that, "Why one should be religious, godly, for being elevated to the heavenly planets? We shall go by missile." That is their plan. So this challenge of Rāvaṇa class of men is always there. You cannot conquer the laws of God or nature by Rāvaṇa's mentality. That is not possible. You can try, but it will never be successful. So the result is instead of establishing a platform, they establish a dying. That is the natural result. But still they are proud of their science. Why don't you write? Gaurasundara: Yes, I should write. Prabhupāda: And they cannot explain why he died. What is the advancement? What is the next . . . or what is the actual result of this expedition? Gaurasundara: They become very depressed. Prabhupāda: They have written? Gaurasundara: Yes. The whole Russian nation is shocked. Prabhupāda: Then they will be depressed more and more. Your Lenin or Stalin cannot save you. They await more depression. In a godless country you will simply be depressed. Note it down. Māyā bhraṣṭa divesena . When one becomes too much attached to the influence of māyā , they talk like that and become disappointed. Again attempt, another; again disappointment. There is a story in India. There is a province, Orissa. The people of that province are very cowardly. There is a story of the Orissan man that one man, he was quarreling with him, so he challenged him, "All right, you have said you can slap me. Slap me. All right. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . slap me." So he slapped in this way. "Oh, you have slapped me. All right, you have slapped this side. I see you have slapped this side, again you slap this side." Still he said: "All right, you have slapped enough. You can slap . . . can you can slap my son?" and slap. So the slapping is going on, and still he is challenging. These rascals are like this. Nature's slapping is going on, "All right, now better this attempt, and this attempt, this attempt." Exactly the same theory after . . . (indistinct) . . . in every item they are being failure, but still, "All right. Slap me. Attempt like this." The Americans, they advertise they have gone, and they brought some dust, without any profit. They are also proud. And the Russians, they are killing so many men, and afterwards they are proud. "All right, this was failure. All right, try again." The same slapping process. Nature is slapping, seriously, but still, "All right, you have slapped in this way. Can you slap like this?" . . . (indistinct) They are so shameless, shameless rascals. They have no shame even that, "we have been proved, useless. You stop this rascaldom." No. They will, "Another. Slap me in this way." That I have seen. This is going on. In every respect they are being slapped, but still challenging, "All right, you can slap. You can slap me in this way." We have . . . (indistinct) Why they have become successful? Still they are proud of their learning. Simply wasting time and teaching others to waste time. This is going on. From time in memorial, Rāvaṇa's society like this. Hiraṇyakaśipu tried to become immortal. So these attempts are going on perpetually, but history proves that nobody has become successful. When this news came? Gaurasundara: The one yesterday? Prabhupāda: Hmm. What was the heading? Gaurasundara: "Three die in space." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: In the Bible also there is somebody who tried to build a tower of Babel. Prabhupāda: What is that story? Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Gaurasundara: They tried to build one tower to Heaven Prabhupāda: Ah. And what happened? Gaurasundara: It failed. The whole thing broke. Govinda dāsī: It smashed. Prabhupāda: (aside) What is that? *Devotee: Śacī*-suta prabhu requests that you chant on some new beads for him. Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee: He said he lost his old tulāsi beads a year ago, and he needed some others. That's why he asked. Also there is one set of beads from one prabhu on saṅkīrtana . (aside) So you like Gaura-śakti prabhu . Prabhupāda: So I am enjoying this mango in this way. Devotee: I am enjoying mangoes, so many mangoes. Can I ask you one more question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about these initiations? Tomorrow's the last batch. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: There are (counting) three, four, five, six . . . there are eight for . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Devotee: There are eight for harināma initiation and nine for gāyatrī , but one of the names for gāyatrī is Loka*-mālā, which you have just initiated, either today or yesterday, Loka-mālā. But she is supposed to be married to one boy who is a brāhmin this Sunday coming. She is supposed to be married to one boy who is a brāhmin , and so they are recommending her for second. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: When she is . . . (indistinct) Devotee: She is going to be married this coming Sunday. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Devotee: That is all right? Prabhupāda: So building up the platform in space is faster? Gaurasundara: Yes. If they go up, they cannot come back again. They have to stay there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gaurasundara: If they go out and live on that platform, they cannot return again to earth. Because their heart can no longer pump; it becomes lazy, and when they return to the gravity the heart is smashed. So it means that if they go up there, then they have to stay. Prabhupāda: That proposition is nonsense. Either they can stay, and if they come, they die. That is good proposition. (laughter) Why not stay here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Like that. But your position is that, "You go, we cannot stay there. We have to come back." And if you come back you die. So why not they should stay and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and then prepare yourself to go to the highest planets, or any other planet? *Kṛṣṇa can give you any other planet you like. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja wanted his father's kingdom, so Kṛṣṇa gave him . . . (indistinct) . . . gave him the polestar. That is Dhruva Mahārāja's kingdom. Kṛṣṇa can give you anything you want. Why you bother yourself with that? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So we are the most intelligent persons in the world, because we don't take such foolish trouble, but we are assured through injuction of the best planet, or wherever we want to go. So the mūḍhā , they will not accept this. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). They will never become Kṛṣṇa conscious, because they are rascals. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ , duṣkṛtinaḥ . They are always sinful, eating meat. They cannot do this. They will travel like . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 4, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . some treatment he is undergoing? Gaurasundara: No, there is no treatment. Govinda dāsī: He says there is no treatment. Prabhupāda: So what he is eating? Govinda dāsī: He eats. Eats fruits, vegetables, capātīs , rice. Prabhupāda: Nicely? Govinda dāsī: Oh, yes. He eats very much . . . Prabhupāda: Then, but he gets sick all the time. So what is the cause of sickness? Gaurasundara: Well, from the fasting too long it appears that his digestive system has stopped from lack of use, and now he just doesn't . . . Prabhupāda: No. Now whatever he is eating, he is evacuating? Govinda dāsī: He has trouble. He has . . . Gaurasundara: No. He has trouble, He has great trouble. Govinda dāsī: He has to drink prune juice. Every, every day we have to supply him juice. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: Or otherwise he can't eat. It won't . . . his digestive system won't work. I have to show now. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So he is not getting strength by eating? Gaurasundara: Well, somewhat. Prabhupāda: He should not eat too much, but eat substantial. What is his age? *Gaurasundara: I think twenty*-one. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is young boy. So, easily digestible, nutritious. So dal , he can take. Dal ? Gaurasundara: I think so. Prabhupāda: Dal , capātīs , rice. Gaurasundara: He takes a lot of fruit and vegetables. Prabhupāda: That's all? Govinda dāsī: Lots of papaya. It helps his digestion. Prabhupāda: Papaya? Govinda dāsī: Hm. He eats four or five papayas in a day. Prabhupāda: He chants regularly? Chanting? Govinda dāsī: Chanting. Yes. He's not so much disturbed by it, because he's been sick a long time, so . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: He said in raising the body heat with kuṇḍalinī yoga it burned the nervous system. I don't know anything about the . . . Prabhupāda: Kuṇḍalinī is bad to him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this kuṇḍalinī ? What do . . . what is the benefit of kuṇḍalinī ? Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: We have never such attraction for kuṇḍalinī . . . (indistinct) . . . we simply believe in the words of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, that's all. No kuṇḍalinī . I was attracted, "Oh, he is speaking nicely, "Kṛṣṇa can be seen." " So I was attracted, like that: "Kṛṣṇa is not dead. He is living." In the beginning (laughs) that enlightened me. From the very beginning of our life we are trained, "Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is person." Later on, in our school, college days, by bad association there was some impersonalist tendency. But when I heard from Guru Mahārāja that Kṛṣṇa is person, the Supreme, oh, I became so much . . . (indistinct) . . . yes. Then it was fixed up. I have written that, "Impersonal calamities thou hast moved." There was a current, when I was little, thinking that Lord is impersonal; that was not appealing. And when it was confirmed, I became very much glad. Any other questions? Govinda dāsī: No. Gaurasundara is leaving today, I think. Are you leaving tomorrow? Prabhupāda: He can leave tomorrow, together. You are leaving tomorrow? *Govinda dāsī: Yes. I only paid twenty*-five . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: On the deities, what should be the size? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaurasundara: The deities. Prabhupāda: Four feet is nice. Gaurasundara: That's five of them? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm Gaurasundara: Five of them together, four feet? Govinda dāsī: That's very nice. No. Now They won't be as wide, They will be taller. Prabhupāda: You can see the picture. (pause) No. Then you can make short. You see. Govinda dāsī: You see, I don't have to completely remake it. I have the mold already. I won't have to . . . three figures I won't have to remake. Three figures are made. I just make one more. This figure. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You paint the picture; you do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: Kṛṣṇa will supply us a big enough temple. (offers obeisances to Śrīla Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: You can take this flower garland. Govinda dāsī: This big garland? Prabhupāda: Yes. Divide it into two. (pause) (break) (end) Conversation -- July 4, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . some treatment he is undergoing? Gaurasundara: No, there is no treatment. Govinda dāsī: He says there is no treatment. Prabhupāda: So what he is eating? Govinda dāsī: He eats. Eats fruits, vegetables, capātīs , rice. Prabhupāda: Nicely? Govinda dāsī: Oh, yes. He eats very much . . . Prabhupāda: Then, but he gets sick all the time. So what is the cause of sickness? Gaurasundara: Well, from the fasting too long it appears that his digestive system has stopped from lack of use, and now he just doesn't . . . Prabhupāda: No. Now whatever he is eating, he is evacuating? Govinda dāsī: He has trouble. He has . . . Gaurasundara: No. He has trouble, He has great trouble. Govinda dāsī: He has to drink prune juice. Every, every day we have to supply him juice. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: Or otherwise he can't eat. It won't . . . his digestive system won't work. I have to show now. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So he is not getting strength by eating? Gaurasundara: Well, somewhat. Prabhupāda: He should not eat too much, but eat substantial. What is his age? *Gaurasundara: I think twenty*-one. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is young boy. So, easily digestible, nutritious. So dal , he can take. Dal ? Gaurasundara: I think so. Prabhupāda: Dal , capātīs , rice. Gaurasundara: He takes a lot of fruit and vegetables. Prabhupāda: That's all? Govinda dāsī: Lots of papaya. It helps his digestion. Prabhupāda: Papaya? Govinda dāsī: Hm. He eats four or five papayas in a day. Prabhupāda: He chants regularly? Chanting? Govinda dāsī: Chanting. Yes. He's not so much disturbed by it, because he's been sick a long time, so . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: He said in raising the body heat with kuṇḍalinī yoga it burned the nervous system. I don't know anything about the . . . Prabhupāda: Kuṇḍalinī is bad to him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this kuṇḍalinī ? What do . . . what is the benefit of kuṇḍalinī ? Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: We have never such attraction for kuṇḍalinī . . . (indistinct) . . . we simply believe in the words of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, that's all. No kuṇḍalinī . I was attracted, "Oh, he is speaking nicely, "Kṛṣṇa can be seen." " So I was attracted, like that: "Kṛṣṇa is not dead. He is living." In the beginning (laughs) that enlightened me. From the very beginning of our life we are trained, "Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is person." Later on, in our school, college days, by bad association there was some impersonalist tendency. But when I heard from Guru Mahārāja that Kṛṣṇa is person, the Supreme, oh, I became so much . . . (indistinct) . . . yes. Then it was fixed up. I have written that, "Impersonal calamities thou hast moved." There was a current, when I was little, thinking that Lord is impersonal; that was not appealing. And when it was confirmed, I became very much glad. Any other questions? Govinda dāsī: No. Gaurasundara is leaving today, I think. Are you leaving tomorrow? Prabhupāda: He can leave tomorrow, together. You are leaving tomorrow? *Govinda dāsī: Yes. I only paid twenty*-five . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: On the deities, what should be the size? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaurasundara: The deities. Prabhupāda: Four feet is nice. Gaurasundara: That's five of them? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm Gaurasundara: Five of them together, four feet? Govinda dāsī: That's very nice. No. Now They won't be as wide, They will be taller. Prabhupāda: You can see the picture. (pause) No. Then you can make short. You see. Govinda dāsī: You see, I don't have to completely remake it. I have the mold already. I won't have to . . . three figures I won't have to remake. Three figures are made. I just make one more. This figure. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You paint the picture; you do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: Kṛṣṇa will supply us a big enough temple. (offers obeisances to Śrīla Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: You can take this flower garland. Govinda dāsī: This big garland? Prabhupāda: Yes. Divide it into two. (pause) (break) (end) Conversation -- July 5, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . simply our literatures are meant for selling not for reading, is that very good sign? Reading first, selling secondary. So you tasted this śukta ? Devotee: Yes, very nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice? You have also tasted? Karandhara: I had a little that was left over that was cold. Prabhupāda: Never mind . . . Govinda dāsī: It's delicious. Prabhupāda: Indian dishes, especially in Bengal, Bengal especially, the śukta is the beginning. Śāk and śukta . Beginning vegetable and śukta , in the beginning. And at the end, milk, banana, sweet. Eating: beginning bitter, ending sweet. Madhureṇa samāpayet . All kinds of tastes: bitter, sour, pungent, gradually ending in sweet. That is eating. *Catur*-vidha. Catur-vidha-śrī-bhagavat-prasāda (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 4). Carvya , cūṣya , lehya , peya . Something chewing, something . . . what is called? Licking, something swallowing. Carvya , cūṣya , lehya , peya . Cūṣya , cūṣya means just like a lozenges. What is called? Just not taken at once. What is? Devotees: Sucking. *Prabhupāda: Sucking, yes. Sucking, cūṣya , sucking. Carvya , chewing. Chewing, sucking, swallowing and drinking. Four kinds of food must be there: carvya , cūṣya . . . catur*-vidha. Catur means four, and under four headings there are many items, tastes. That is tastes: bitter, sour, salty, pungent and so on. Then that is variety, this . . . variety is the mother of enjoyment. Then you enjoy eating.So it was cold, it was not tasteful? Karandhara: Oh, it was nice. Prabhupāda: This flame was not nice, otherwise it would have come still better. There was some defect in the flame, so it absorbed more ghee than necessary. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the phone came? Devotee: Washington. Prabhupāda: Who was talking? Devotee: Kālindī. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa.In India we have spent not less than five lakhs of rupees, in so many ways. That has been collected only by selling books. Only Birla paid me twenty*-five thousand for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise whatever collection is there and is spent, it is the books. Huge festivals in Calcutta and Bombay—two lakhs . And I have toured over all India—Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, Amritsar, Indore, Surat . . . Gorakhpur, Rajamandri. In these places I was present. Disciples, they have independently gone Agra, Ahmedabad, Vṛndāvana. And our monthly expenditure is more than ten thousand rupees. We are paying four thousand rupees' rent in two places, besides touring and eating. So all this money has been collected by selling this *Kṛṣṇa Book* and *Nectar of Devotion* , the magazine. *Why not here? India is not English*-knowing country. And here all of them are English nation. We should make vigorous propaganda for this membership program, and there is no financial difficulty. Devotee: Today we distributed a thousand Back to Godheads . Prabhupāda: Very nice. Devotee: Nine hundred and ninety three to be exact. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all right. 9-9-3. So you work Back to Godhead together. So you collected at the rate twenty*-five? Karandhara: Oh, much more than that. Prabhupāda: Much more than that? Karandhara: I think we averaged about forty cents a magazine. Prabhupāda: You have collected about five hundred dollars? Karandhara: Should be four hundred and fifty or five hundred dollars. I'm not sure. *Prabhupāda: I think that Dai*-Nippon says that he shall print 200,000 copies. Send them money and take it. Distribute. Karandhara: As it is, there is . . . *Prabhupāda: Dai*-Nippon is a good patron. They are giving us credit, up to 100,000 already. In BTG fund they are allowing us seventy and eighty thousand dollars, and Book Fund $20,000. Why should we not take advantage of it? They give us goods worth $100,000, and we make profit and pay. Why not make this arrangement? For, say, 50,000 worth dollars goods we take from him, we make at least $200,000. Is it not? *So where is this financial crisis? Simply you have to organize distribution. You haven't got to pay from pocket Dai*-Nippon. Pay whenever. Collect and pay. That, for this arrangement, I went there. Collect unpaid. But actually, at least in India, I did not take any money from here. Simply I ordered books there, and with that books we made so much work on collection. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So organize. That is our, I mean to say, material financial difficulty as well as making propaganda—distribution of literature. Your have not gone into the actual reading public: schools, colleges, university libraries. They are only on the street. But the scholarly reading public you have not yet touched. Is it not? Scholarly reading public means libraries, schools, colleges, universities. But you have not touched them. You are simply distributing on the street. Our literature is meant for higher section, scholarly section. That section we have not yet touched—philosophers, religionists, highly intellectual public. We are meant for that, our literature. That you have not touched yet. So we should endeavor to deal with it. What these great delete philosophers will speak before us? We have got so much stock. They can simply present some theories or thesis, and we can defy all their . . . you are better delete than they are. Dhruva Mahārāja, by his meditation, he startled the whole universe. And we are so many, and by our devotional service we cannot startle? What is that word? Startle? Hah? The whole America. Is it not possible? That is possible. If we go according to the prescribed, we can startle by that spiritual power. That is possible. I am explaining now in my tape how Dhruva Mahārāja startled the whole universe by his spiritual meditation. In Calcutta we defeated Ramakrishna Mission. Nobody is going there.In India we have now cut down all the svāmīs . Everyone is thinking of us, not of them. There are so many big, big svāmīs —Chinmayananda Swami, Vivekananda Swami. Now people are talking about us. They are bringing Vivekananda . . . as soon as our talk is there, he gives reference to Vivekananda, and he is doing more than Vivekananda. But we are doing many millions times more than Vivekananda. What Vivekananda has done, and what he has power to do? What does he know? But if we say like that, that will be little pride. But that's a fact. Vivekananda's institutions are here for the last eighty years, or more than that. He started in 1893. Vivekananda came here, in America, in 1893 and started a center in New York, 72nd Street. But in comparison to their center and our center, there is ocean of difference. Here, Los Angeles, they have got their branch? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what they are doing, and what we are doing, ISKCON's right here. Similarly in New York. And where they have got . . . I think in America? Karandhara: They have one in San Francisco. They have about ten in America. Prabhupāda: Ten. Karandhara: Ten. Prabhupāda: And we have got forty in three years. And in eighty years they have established ten. And how many American students are there working for them? They are . . . every center is conducted by Indian svāmīs . Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And where is the Americans are working? Huh? For working their missionary work they have to bring from India svāmīs , but here American svāmīs are working, in our branches. Where is the Indian svāmīs ? Before my coming I was talking with Bon Mahārāja. He was of opinion then you can talk of our philosophy only, but if you try to convert them, then it will not be successful. That is not preaching. You have to take them to your philosophy. That is successful preaching. That is what my Guru Mahārāja . . . Otherwise what is the preaching? Simply talking? Because he did so. He never attempted. He was three years in London. Not a single person came to understand this philosophy, and later on Guru Mahārāja was disgusted and called him back. Guru Mahārāja sent him, that "You go and create some situation, then I shall go." But he could not create that situation. This is our telephone? Nobody is there? Karandhara: I think everyone is at ārotika . Prabhupāda: Oh. Sit down, sit down. Don't bother. At least one man should remain in the office. That Nixon meeting, is that . . . is there any attempt to do it? Devotee: Not yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because we did not know what Your Divine Grace was going to do, how long you are going to be here. And as I mentioned, we wanted to try and get one with a couple of other people first, because we thought it would be a better chance to get it with Nixon if you want—that is being attempted—and if Mayor Lindsay first. Prabhupāda: Who is that? Devotee: Mayor Lindsay. Prabhupāda: Mayor Lindsay? Devotee: Mayor Lindsay, of New York City. Prabhupāda: Oh, Mayor. Oh. Devotee: Some years ago his office wrote a letter . . . Prabhupāda: He was Lindsay? Devotees: Lindsay. Prabhupāda: Oh, Lindsay. Yes. He is important. Devotee: Yes, he is very important. Then we thought we would try for Nixon. Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, these leaders, actually they do not want people should be very intelligent. You see? They want to keep the people in ignorance and exploit their ignorance for their personal benefits. That is their policy. Actually they do not want welfare of the citizens. They want only post, and bluffing the citizens they want to get vote and sit down. That is their policy, all these politicians. They have no thinking how people will be happy. That is beyond their dreaming, neither they want it. But actually these position—this mayor or governor or topmost head—they should be thinking of the welfare of the people. But it is just opposite. Instead of thinking of their welfare - how to exploit them and make his position secure. That's all. Therefore I do not expect any good result by seeing people like that. Devotee: Should we continue? Should we bother with them? Prabhupāda: Bother in this way - if you can arrange some meeting, inviting some of these big men, and if some big men come—just like here we can do, some big men—then subordinate big men will come. Then we get a chance to present our philosophy. In that way you can try it. Do you follow what I say? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: If . . . suppose the governor is coming in our place, and you invite the magistrate, the judges, the secretaries, big, big men, they will come. Now when they are assembled we can present our philosophy. And public will see, "Oh, such, such big men, they have come." So we get some publicity. Otherwise you cannot get any other benefit from it. They are politicians. They are not interested that people should go back to home, back to Godhead. They are interested that they must remain foolish and pay tax and enjoy, that's all. That is their position. And you cannot expect from rascals. All bad character rascals, cheater. That is my opinion. Cheater number one. They have no good wishes for the people at heart. So how we can convince them about our good philosophy? They don't want that people should be advanced in philosophy, in religion, in character. No. They don't want. They want to keep them in darkness. Devotee: So should we continue seeing these men, these congressmen and senators? Prabhupāda: Provided that you can arrange a meeting of them. Individual seeing is no good. It will not produce any good effect. Now you can . . . suppose that if we say that we are not allowing illicit sex. Do you think they will like it very much? If the rascal is himself addicted to these habits, so what will be effect of our . . . if we say that we are training our students to this principle, character, they will laugh, because they don't want that the citizens should be so advanced . . . (indistinct) . . . life. They want to make them thief, cunning, rascal, drunkard, so that they can exploit. That's all. Now that boy, Ranchor, his father was canvassing, "What is wrong there in illicit sex?" His father, "Take a car, enjoy girls. Why not?" like that. His father was instructing. His father was like that; his mother was like that. His . . . he told me all this. The only benefit we can derive that if they become a member, then that membership will lead many others to become, "Oh, Nixon has become member? I shall become." That's all. Because they are their ideal. Nixon has become, ah, then whole America will become, if you make Nixon member. If that much you can do.Somehow or other that, "It is a good movement, and it is only 1100 rupees, a good cause. Please become a member." Somehow or other if you can do that, then his membership will help you to recruit another 100,000 members. Devotee: I don't see how we can convince Nixon. Nixon is the worst of the lot. Prabhupāda: That is . . . then utilize; *otherwise it is very difficult to convince them about our philosophy. They are themselves rascals. All of them are drunkards, illicit*-sex hunters, meat-eaters, gamblers and everything. All good qualifications. And they are in the higher position. If you go instruct them, they will: "Ah, these rascals, they are begging, and they have come to instruct me!" Because their idea is that, "This religious sect, they could not do anything in the material world; now they have taken the shelter of the spiritual world." They think like that. Because they have no meaning for that, anything of spiritual, they do not understand. Each airplane company has got at least five hundred to one thousand planes, and there are so many companies, many thousands of planes. Each airplane is flying, but we can see hardly one accident. Many thousands are flying—only your country; *I am not speaking of other countries. Many thousands of planes are flying, day and night, Europe and America. Space is so big. Koṭiṣu vasudhādi*-vibhūti-bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). And there are many crores of planets. Each planet has different character, different climate. What they are talking about that Russian failure? Capsule? Karandhara: I haven't heard the latest news on that. Prabhupāda: Capsule. Capsule dead. They will create platform? Karandhara: Yes. That's what they are attempting. A space station. Prabhupāda: It is not station; it is moving. And how the station will help them? What is the idea? Devotee: They hope to stockpile materials and build one rocket ship up in the station, and from there they can send the rocket ship off. They want to assemble one rocket out in space that will be suited to travel to other planets. Karandhara: When they shoot a rocket up from the earth they have to spend so much energy just to get it off the earth. They figured they will conserve by being able to shoot it from outer space. *Prabhupāda: So first of all, suppose twenty*-five thousand miles away they have got a station, then they go there. Then? What is the benefit of it? Devotee: Well the most difficult part is getting out there, because the earth's gravity burns up all their fuel. So they need many small rockets to bring up all the parts and put it together and then shoot it from there. Because just getting from here to there takes most of the energy to overcome that gravity. When they get up there there's no more gravity; they are free to travel freely. Prabhupāda: What is their idea? I could not understand. Govinda dāsī: It's insane. Devotee: I'm not sure whether it's correct, but they have to have so much fuel, which takes up a lot of room, to get them from earth to, say, Mars, and most of that fuel is consumed getting away from the earth's gravity. But if they were to build a rocket ship away from the earth's gravity, they wouldn't need so much fuel and they could get it to Mars and back with a smaller ship, with less fuel. Prabhupāda: And how that ship will go? Devotee: The same fuel, but less. They can't make a rocket ship big enough yet to carry all the fuel they need to get them to the planets they want to go to and then back again. Karandhara: It's like a middle station. Devotee: Yes. It's like a filling station. Prabhupāda: But the filling matter must be there, material. Karandhara: They will transport that up by many small rockets. They'll shoot many small rockets carrying supplies, and then they will stockpile them. Prabhupāda: How utopian. Govinda dāsī: It's insane. Prabhupāda: Childish. And they are claiming to be scientists. Small rockets . . . they will also finish. Small rockets also consume so much fuel. How many hundreds of small rockets have to be sent? And the fuel has to be taken from here. Just see. How they are making themselves . . . if the supply, everything has to be taken from here, it is just like picnic in the sky—take everything from there and hold a picnic there. Like that. So much huge quantity of gas, petrol, required, and they will be carried from the station, another station. Simply dreaming. And before executing the plans, so many men died. And still they are hoping. First of all let them finish their moon planet business. What they have done about the moon planet? Why again they are aiming at Mars or Venus? Go to moon planet. Your flags are there—go live there. They are selling land there also, there was advertisement. And many people purchased return ticket. Is that fact? Karandhara: That is some advertisement they are doing, yes. Prabhupāda: So what happened to these ideas? Why not make a colony? That's a good idea. But they said that no living entity can live there, at the same time? Then what is the use of going there? What is the exact idea? Karandhara: Well, their idea is they will make . . . one idea is they will build a big dome, and they will just create an atmosphere, just like what's on earth. So the only way they can live there is to bring the earth there—all the atmosphere, all the things. Devotee (2): Then they are hoping there will be mineral resources they can exploit on the moon. Prabhupāda: And how to bring them, the minerals? Devotee (2): Oh, they can build up there, make factories and . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): They can make factories and make more rockets on the moon. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Devotee (2): Yes. Another station. *Prabhupāda: By covering them with that dress which cost over $40,000. (laughter) And they will run on factory? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : pralayāntām upāśritāḥ (BG 16.11) thinking of, planning for, sense gratification till the time of death. Just like all big men—Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi—simply making big plans—Hitler or Churchill. And before executing the plan, everything is finished. So many Hitlers and so many Gandhis and Jawaharlal, Churchills came and gone. Nobody could improve the situation of the world. Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, so many came, and the world is going on in the same way, pralayāntām upāśritāḥ . So why they do not make factory here? There are so many deserts and barren land, rocky land. From airplane you can see. In Canada there are hundreds and thousands of lakes. From the plane we could see it. So why they do not make development of this land if they are scientist? Thousands of miles desert and rocky land, unutilized. Australia, that is not bad land—very nice land—but no work there. Thousands and thousands. I think one percent or two percent of Australia land has been utilized. So why they do not utilize these lands? What benefit they will derive by going? Karandhara: They are also eager to gain more, but they are not even using what they have. They just want to get more and more and more. *Prabhupāda: Piśācī pāile yena mati*-cchanna (Prema-vivarta). Pramatta . They are being called pramatta : intensely mad. Devotee: Yes. Intelligence—they have no . . . their intelligence is stolen by sense gratification. *Prabhupāda: Intensely mad. Nunam pramatta. Pramatta , this very word is used. Instead of utilizing the human form of life intelligently for real purpose, simply wasting. Bharam udvahato vimūḍhān ( SB 7.9.43). These words are used. Unnecessary they have created some . . . what is called? Bharam . Bharam means falsehood. What is the exact English word, bharam ? To make a show which has no utility. That is called bharam . When that first aereonautic, aeronaut from Russia, one boy, went and traveled around the world for one hour twenty*-five minutes . . . Russia it was? Karandhara: I think the United States was first to do that. Russia had the first sputnik, but the United States had the first spaceman. *Prabhupāda: So that man who went, he was received by India, and Jawaharlal Nehru received him. Now nobody talks about him. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. In the Bhagavata the exact wordings are so nice. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). The happiness derived out of it is māyā , illusion. It has no substance. *But for that purpose they have made so much gorgeous arrangement. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Bhagavata is the only literature in the world meant for very highly intelligent class of men. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ (SB 1.1.2). Highly intellectual persons will understand Bhāgavatam very nicely. Try our best. Devotee: So at least these highly intelligent men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, ah, they're not in the government. These men are not in the government. Actually they are in the education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: The professors and advanced students. Prabhupāda: But at the present moment the professors also addicted with these four prohibited. They are lusty, drunkard, gambler. The priests also. All servants of māyā . Devotee: We still have nowhere to go except the young people to make devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Less vitiated, less contaminated. Actually that is happening. Our . . . somebody asked me in Paris a question, "Why younger generations are attracted?" And I immediately, "Because they are not so polluted." The older generation, they're polluted, it will take time for forgetting what they have done. The younger generation, they are receptive and they are not so much polluted. They are not old fools.Actually that is the fact. So old generation, they are sophisticated. By nature younger generation they are inquisitive and receptive, by nature. Therefore from the very beginning if they are given good guidance, their life is successful. That is the Vedic civilization. Just like that small boy. You ask him to offer obeisance, he does. Doesn't matter what will happen in his future life. But this life he is so innocent, you could train him. Just like your son: the training from the very beginning, just like we have been trained by our parents—and that makes value. So our New Vrindavan was meant for training small children, and that is not being done. Then? What is the use of it? What for it is now being used? Devotee (3): Well, the money . . . all the money has been used for acquiring land. Now there is one building that they are beginning. You have seen a plan. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (3): That is the first modern building to be constructed. Already they have begun. They have bulldozed the land. They haven't built the house, but they have bulldozed the land; they've leveled the land. Prabhupāda: Which portion? Devotee (3): Hmm? Prabhupāda: Which portion of the land? Devotee (3): Oh, you know . . . you remember where the school, that little white schoolhouse was, by the road? At the beginning of the road. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Schoolhouse it is known. Devotee (3): Yes. Not far from there, up higher, where some trees are. I would say maybe a hundred yards back down the road, the macadam road. Off the road, in the trees. Prabhupāda: That is our land now? Devotee (3): Yes. It is very nice. We have all the hay we need now. So many hay fields. Before we were purchasing, expensive. But now there is enough hay for all the cows. So Hayagrīva prabhu's plan is to continue the construction gradually. And with this building, if this building is done properly, there will be a place for the children. Devotee (2): That will be the place? Devotee (3): At least there's room. The children don't have to live in that building necessarily, but there has to be some bathing facilities. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (3): The bathing facilities would be in that building. Prabhupāda: So there is water supply? Devotee (3): I don't know the details. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the śāstra it is said that when there are many hills, it attracts lightning. Is it a fact? Devotee (3): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Karandhara: They have lightning rods on all the houses. Prabhupāda: Ha? Karandhara: They have lightning rods on their houses. Prabhupāda: Lightning? Karandhara: Lightning rods. You put them on the house, so if the lightning comes it will strike the rod and will be grounded into the ground. Prabhupāda: The rocks are broken. You have seen sometimes rocks are broken? Huh? So that is due to lightning. Just like we sometimes break the rocks by dynamite, nature's way, as soon as rocks are out from the sea, by nature's way they are broken by the lightning, and then gradually level land comes. So the thunderbolt generally falls on the hills. Is it a fact? Huh? That is stated in some ślokas in the . . . example is given. Ah. When Varāhadeva killed that Hiraṇyākṣa, this example was there. Just like the lightning thunderbolt shatters the hills, immediately He broke the big giant into pieces. This example. Therefore the big hilly tract of land attracts thunderbolts. Then that tract of land must be inviting some thunderbolt? Because West Virginia is full of hills only, is it not? That is very good for living condition? Devotee: I haven't heard of a lot of lightning striking, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hayagrāva prabhu has never mentioned a lot of lightning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Hayagrāva prabhu has never mentioned that there has been a lot of lightning striking. I haven't heard. There's also an alternative to temporary. Bhagavān dāsa prabhu has gotten this house, additional to the temple in Detroit. It's the . . . a big carriage house with facilities. He has suggested . . . Prabhupāda: Carriage? Devotee: Carriage house. Like a garage, behind the other house. This has rooms in it, everything—full house, with facilities. Perhaps the children could go there and attend school. That's a possibility we discussed. To keep them together. Prabhupāda: All airplanes, they are made by Boeing company? Karandhara: No. There is two big ones: Boeing and Douglas. Prabhupāda: Douglas? Karandhara: Douglas. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Karandhara: It's in Long Beach, Lakewood. Not far from here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Throughout the whole world they are manufacturing? Karandhara: Yes. Douglas is very big also. Not as big as Boeing, but very big. Prabhupāda: Because all airplanes I see: Boeing. So there are so many companies they are taking supply from Boeing. Karandhara: Boeing is the biggest. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is Seattle? Karandhara: Seattle . . . Boeing has factories all over. Prabhupāda: Oh. Karandhara: Seattle, Los Angeles, all over the United States. Prabhupāda: In Europe they are also being supplied? No. France they have got some factories. Karandhara: Yes. They supply all over the world. Prabhupāda: Huh? Karandhara: Boeing supplies all over the world. In fact in Seattle . . . Air India bought two of those great big ones in Seattle. We were going to get some free rides there, but Air India, they decided not to give them to us. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Karandhara: Air India, they bought two great big 747 jets, like the one you went to Hawaii in when you left here. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Karandhara: They bought two big ones, and they were bringing them to India. So we inquired from them if we could have some free passages to India. Prabhupāda: Ha. Karandhara: So at first they said we could, but then they changed their mind and said we couldn't. The man in Seattle, the Air India man, said we could. The Air India man in New York said no, he wouldn't let them do it. So it's too late. They have already gone to India. Prabhupāda: They will go empty, India? Karandhara: No. They sold seats to diplomats and people, other people, at a discount rate. They sold seats. (end) Conversation -- July 5, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . simply our literatures are meant for selling not for reading, is that very good sign? Reading first, selling secondary. So you tasted this śukta ? Devotee: Yes, very nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice? You have also tasted? Karandhara: I had a little that was left over that was cold. Prabhupāda: Never mind . . . Govinda dāsī: It's delicious. Prabhupāda: Indian dishes, especially in Bengal, Bengal especially, the śukta is the beginning. Śāk and śukta . Beginning vegetable and śukta , in the beginning. And at the end, milk, banana, sweet. Eating: beginning bitter, ending sweet. Madhureṇa samāpayet . All kinds of tastes: bitter, sour, pungent, gradually ending in sweet. That is eating. *Catur*-vidha. Catur-vidha-śrī-bhagavat-prasāda (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 4). Carvya , cūṣya , lehya , peya . Something chewing, something . . . what is called? Licking, something swallowing. Carvya , cūṣya , lehya , peya . Cūṣya , cūṣya means just like a lozenges. What is called? Just not taken at once. What is? Devotees: Sucking. *Prabhupāda: Sucking, yes. Sucking, cūṣya , sucking. Carvya , chewing. Chewing, sucking, swallowing and drinking. Four kinds of food must be there: carvya , cūṣya . . . catur*-vidha. Catur means four, and under four headings there are many items, tastes. That is tastes: bitter, sour, salty, pungent and so on. Then that is variety, this . . . variety is the mother of enjoyment. Then you enjoy eating.So it was cold, it was not tasteful? Karandhara: Oh, it was nice. Prabhupāda: This flame was not nice, otherwise it would have come still better. There was some defect in the flame, so it absorbed more ghee than necessary. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the phone came? Devotee: Washington. Prabhupāda: Who was talking? Devotee: Kālindī. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa.In India we have spent not less than five lakhs of rupees, in so many ways. That has been collected only by selling books. Only Birla paid me twenty*-five thousand for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise whatever collection is there and is spent, it is the books. Huge festivals in Calcutta and Bombay—two lakhs . And I have toured over all India—Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, Amritsar, Indore, Surat . . . Gorakhpur, Rajamandri. In these places I was present. Disciples, they have independently gone Agra, Ahmedabad, Vṛndāvana. And our monthly expenditure is more than ten thousand rupees. We are paying four thousand rupees' rent in two places, besides touring and eating. So all this money has been collected by selling this *Kṛṣṇa Book* and *Nectar of Devotion* , the magazine. *Why not here? India is not English*-knowing country. And here all of them are English nation. We should make vigorous propaganda for this membership program, and there is no financial difficulty. Devotee: Today we distributed a thousand Back to Godheads . Prabhupāda: Very nice. Devotee: Nine hundred and ninety three to be exact. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all right. 9-9-3. So you work Back to Godhead together. So you collected at the rate twenty*-five? Karandhara: Oh, much more than that. Prabhupāda: Much more than that? Karandhara: I think we averaged about forty cents a magazine. Prabhupāda: You have collected about five hundred dollars? Karandhara: Should be four hundred and fifty or five hundred dollars. I'm not sure. *Prabhupāda: I think that Dai*-Nippon says that he shall print 200,000 copies. Send them money and take it. Distribute. Karandhara: As it is, there is . . . *Prabhupāda: Dai*-Nippon is a good patron. They are giving us credit, up to 100,000 already. In BTG fund they are allowing us seventy and eighty thousand dollars, and Book Fund $20,000. Why should we not take advantage of it? They give us goods worth $100,000, and we make profit and pay. Why not make this arrangement? For, say, 50,000 worth dollars goods we take from him, we make at least $200,000. Is it not? *So where is this financial crisis? Simply you have to organize distribution. You haven't got to pay from pocket Dai*-Nippon. Pay whenever. Collect and pay. That, for this arrangement, I went there. Collect unpaid. But actually, at least in India, I did not take any money from here. Simply I ordered books there, and with that books we made so much work on collection. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So organize. That is our, I mean to say, material financial difficulty as well as making propaganda—distribution of literature. Your have not gone into the actual reading public: schools, colleges, university libraries. They are only on the street. But the scholarly reading public you have not yet touched. Is it not? Scholarly reading public means libraries, schools, colleges, universities. But you have not touched them. You are simply distributing on the street. Our literature is meant for higher section, scholarly section. That section we have not yet touched—philosophers, religionists, highly intellectual public. We are meant for that, our literature. That you have not touched yet. So we should endeavor to deal with it. What these great delete philosophers will speak before us? We have got so much stock. They can simply present some theories or thesis, and we can defy all their . . . you are better delete than they are. Dhruva Mahārāja, by his meditation, he startled the whole universe. And we are so many, and by our devotional service we cannot startle? What is that word? Startle? Hah? The whole America. Is it not possible? That is possible. If we go according to the prescribed, we can startle by that spiritual power. That is possible. I am explaining now in my tape how Dhruva Mahārāja startled the whole universe by his spiritual meditation. In Calcutta we defeated Ramakrishna Mission. Nobody is going there.In India we have now cut down all the svāmīs . Everyone is thinking of us, not of them. There are so many big, big svāmīs —Chinmayananda Swami, Vivekananda Swami. Now people are talking about us. They are bringing Vivekananda . . . as soon as our talk is there, he gives reference to Vivekananda, and he is doing more than Vivekananda. But we are doing many millions times more than Vivekananda. What Vivekananda has done, and what he has power to do? What does he know? But if we say like that, that will be little pride. But that's a fact. Vivekananda's institutions are here for the last eighty years, or more than that. He started in 1893. Vivekananda came here, in America, in 1893 and started a center in New York, 72nd Street. But in comparison to their center and our center, there is ocean of difference. Here, Los Angeles, they have got their branch? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what they are doing, and what we are doing, ISKCON's right here. Similarly in New York. And where they have got . . . I think in America? Karandhara: They have one in San Francisco. They have about ten in America. Prabhupāda: Ten. Karandhara: Ten. Prabhupāda: And we have got forty in three years. And in eighty years they have established ten. And how many American students are there working for them? They are . . . every center is conducted by Indian svāmīs . Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And where is the Americans are working? Huh? For working their missionary work they have to bring from India svāmīs , but here American svāmīs are working, in our branches. Where is the Indian svāmīs ? Before my coming I was talking with Bon Mahārāja. He was of opinion then you can talk of our philosophy only, but if you try to convert them, then it will not be successful. That is not preaching. You have to take them to your philosophy. That is successful preaching. That is what my Guru Mahārāja . . . Otherwise what is the preaching? Simply talking? Because he did so. He never attempted. He was three years in London. Not a single person came to understand this philosophy, and later on Guru Mahārāja was disgusted and called him back. Guru Mahārāja sent him, that "You go and create some situation, then I shall go." But he could not create that situation. This is our telephone? Nobody is there? Karandhara: I think everyone is at ārotika . Prabhupāda: Oh. Sit down, sit down. Don't bother. At least one man should remain in the office. That Nixon meeting, is that . . . is there any attempt to do it? Devotee: Not yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because we did not know what Your Divine Grace was going to do, how long you are going to be here. And as I mentioned, we wanted to try and get one with a couple of other people first, because we thought it would be a better chance to get it with Nixon if you want—that is being attempted—and if Mayor Lindsay first. Prabhupāda: Who is that? Devotee: Mayor Lindsay. Prabhupāda: Mayor Lindsay? Devotee: Mayor Lindsay, of New York City. Prabhupāda: Oh, Mayor. Oh. Devotee: Some years ago his office wrote a letter . . . Prabhupāda: He was Lindsay? Devotees: Lindsay. Prabhupāda: Oh, Lindsay. Yes. He is important. Devotee: Yes, he is very important. Then we thought we would try for Nixon. Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, these leaders, actually they do not want people should be very intelligent. You see? They want to keep the people in ignorance and exploit their ignorance for their personal benefits. That is their policy. Actually they do not want welfare of the citizens. They want only post, and bluffing the citizens they want to get vote and sit down. That is their policy, all these politicians. They have no thinking how people will be happy. That is beyond their dreaming, neither they want it. But actually these position—this mayor or governor or topmost head—they should be thinking of the welfare of the people. But it is just opposite. Instead of thinking of their welfare - how to exploit them and make his position secure. That's all. Therefore I do not expect any good result by seeing people like that. Devotee: Should we continue? Should we bother with them? Prabhupāda: Bother in this way - if you can arrange some meeting, inviting some of these big men, and if some big men come—just like here we can do, some big men—then subordinate big men will come. Then we get a chance to present our philosophy. In that way you can try it. Do you follow what I say? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: If . . . suppose the governor is coming in our place, and you invite the magistrate, the judges, the secretaries, big, big men, they will come. Now when they are assembled we can present our philosophy. And public will see, "Oh, such, such big men, they have come." So we get some publicity. Otherwise you cannot get any other benefit from it. They are politicians. They are not interested that people should go back to home, back to Godhead. They are interested that they must remain foolish and pay tax and enjoy, that's all. That is their position. And you cannot expect from rascals. All bad character rascals, cheater. That is my opinion. Cheater number one. They have no good wishes for the people at heart. So how we can convince them about our good philosophy? They don't want that people should be advanced in philosophy, in religion, in character. No. They don't want. They want to keep them in darkness. Devotee: So should we continue seeing these men, these congressmen and senators? Prabhupāda: Provided that you can arrange a meeting of them. Individual seeing is no good. It will not produce any good effect. Now you can . . . suppose that if we say that we are not allowing illicit sex. Do you think they will like it very much? If the rascal is himself addicted to these habits, so what will be effect of our . . . if we say that we are training our students to this principle, character, they will laugh, because they don't want that the citizens should be so advanced . . . (indistinct) . . . life. They want to make them thief, cunning, rascal, drunkard, so that they can exploit. That's all. Now that boy, Ranchor, his father was canvassing, "What is wrong there in illicit sex?" His father, "Take a car, enjoy girls. Why not?" like that. His father was instructing. His father was like that; his mother was like that. His . . . he told me all this. The only benefit we can derive that if they become a member, then that membership will lead many others to become, "Oh, Nixon has become member? I shall become." That's all. Because they are their ideal. Nixon has become, ah, then whole America will become, if you make Nixon member. If that much you can do.Somehow or other that, "It is a good movement, and it is only 1100 rupees, a good cause. Please become a member." Somehow or other if you can do that, then his membership will help you to recruit another 100,000 members. Devotee: I don't see how we can convince Nixon. Nixon is the worst of the lot. Prabhupāda: That is . . . then utilize; *otherwise it is very difficult to convince them about our philosophy. They are themselves rascals. All of them are drunkards, illicit*-sex hunters, meat-eaters, gamblers and everything. All good qualifications. And they are in the higher position. If you go instruct them, they will: "Ah, these rascals, they are begging, and they have come to instruct me!" Because their idea is that, "This religious sect, they could not do anything in the material world; now they have taken the shelter of the spiritual world." They think like that. Because they have no meaning for that, anything of spiritual, they do not understand. Each airplane company has got at least five hundred to one thousand planes, and there are so many companies, many thousands of planes. Each airplane is flying, but we can see hardly one accident. Many thousands are flying—only your country; *I am not speaking of other countries. Many thousands of planes are flying, day and night, Europe and America. Space is so big. Koṭiṣu vasudhādi*-vibhūti-bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). And there are many crores of planets. Each planet has different character, different climate. What they are talking about that Russian failure? Capsule? Karandhara: I haven't heard the latest news on that. Prabhupāda: Capsule. Capsule dead. They will create platform? Karandhara: Yes. That's what they are attempting. A space station. Prabhupāda: It is not station; it is moving. And how the station will help them? What is the idea? Devotee: They hope to stockpile materials and build one rocket ship up in the station, and from there they can send the rocket ship off. They want to assemble one rocket out in space that will be suited to travel to other planets. Karandhara: When they shoot a rocket up from the earth they have to spend so much energy just to get it off the earth. They figured they will conserve by being able to shoot it from outer space. *Prabhupāda: So first of all, suppose twenty*-five thousand miles away they have got a station, then they go there. Then? What is the benefit of it? Devotee: Well the most difficult part is getting out there, because the earth's gravity burns up all their fuel. So they need many small rockets to bring up all the parts and put it together and then shoot it from there. Because just getting from here to there takes most of the energy to overcome that gravity. When they get up there there's no more gravity; they are free to travel freely. Prabhupāda: What is their idea? I could not understand. Govinda dāsī: It's insane. Devotee: I'm not sure whether it's correct, but they have to have so much fuel, which takes up a lot of room, to get them from earth to, say, Mars, and most of that fuel is consumed getting away from the earth's gravity. But if they were to build a rocket ship away from the earth's gravity, they wouldn't need so much fuel and they could get it to Mars and back with a smaller ship, with less fuel. Prabhupāda: And how that ship will go? Devotee: The same fuel, but less. They can't make a rocket ship big enough yet to carry all the fuel they need to get them to the planets they want to go to and then back again. Karandhara: It's like a middle station. Devotee: Yes. It's like a filling station. Prabhupāda: But the filling matter must be there, material. Karandhara: They will transport that up by many small rockets. They'll shoot many small rockets carrying supplies, and then they will stockpile them. Prabhupāda: How utopian. Govinda dāsī: It's insane. Prabhupāda: Childish. And they are claiming to be scientists. Small rockets . . . they will also finish. Small rockets also consume so much fuel. How many hundreds of small rockets have to be sent? And the fuel has to be taken from here. Just see. How they are making themselves . . . if the supply, everything has to be taken from here, it is just like picnic in the sky—take everything from there and hold a picnic there. Like that. So much huge quantity of gas, petrol, required, and they will be carried from the station, another station. Simply dreaming. And before executing the plans, so many men died. And still they are hoping. First of all let them finish their moon planet business. What they have done about the moon planet? Why again they are aiming at Mars or Venus? Go to moon planet. Your flags are there—go live there. They are selling land there also, there was advertisement. And many people purchased return ticket. Is that fact? Karandhara: That is some advertisement they are doing, yes. Prabhupāda: So what happened to these ideas? Why not make a colony? That's a good idea. But they said that no living entity can live there, at the same time? Then what is the use of going there? What is the exact idea? Karandhara: Well, their idea is they will make . . . one idea is they will build a big dome, and they will just create an atmosphere, just like what's on earth. So the only way they can live there is to bring the earth there—all the atmosphere, all the things. Devotee (2): Then they are hoping there will be mineral resources they can exploit on the moon. Prabhupāda: And how to bring them, the minerals? Devotee (2): Oh, they can build up there, make factories and . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): They can make factories and make more rockets on the moon. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Devotee (2): Yes. Another station. *Prabhupāda: By covering them with that dress which cost over $40,000. (laughter) And they will run on factory? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : pralayāntām upāśritāḥ (BG 16.11) thinking of, planning for, sense gratification till the time of death. Just like all big men—Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi—simply making big plans—Hitler or Churchill. And before executing the plan, everything is finished. So many Hitlers and so many Gandhis and Jawaharlal, Churchills came and gone. Nobody could improve the situation of the world. Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, so many came, and the world is going on in the same way, pralayāntām upāśritāḥ . So why they do not make factory here? There are so many deserts and barren land, rocky land. From airplane you can see. In Canada there are hundreds and thousands of lakes. From the plane we could see it. So why they do not make development of this land if they are scientist? Thousands of miles desert and rocky land, unutilized. Australia, that is not bad land—very nice land—but no work there. Thousands and thousands. I think one percent or two percent of Australia land has been utilized. So why they do not utilize these lands? What benefit they will derive by going? Karandhara: They are also eager to gain more, but they are not even using what they have. They just want to get more and more and more. *Prabhupāda: Piśācī pāile yena mati*-cchanna (Prema-vivarta). Pramatta . They are being called pramatta : intensely mad. Devotee: Yes. Intelligence—they have no . . . their intelligence is stolen by sense gratification. *Prabhupāda: Intensely mad. Nunam pramatta. Pramatta , this very word is used. Instead of utilizing the human form of life intelligently for real purpose, simply wasting. Bharam udvahato vimūḍhān ( SB 7.9.43). These words are used. Unnecessary they have created some . . . what is called? Bharam . Bharam means falsehood. What is the exact English word, bharam ? To make a show which has no utility. That is called bharam . When that first aereonautic, aeronaut from Russia, one boy, went and traveled around the world for one hour twenty*-five minutes . . . Russia it was? Karandhara: I think the United States was first to do that. Russia had the first sputnik, but the United States had the first spaceman. *Prabhupāda: So that man who went, he was received by India, and Jawaharlal Nehru received him. Now nobody talks about him. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. In the Bhagavata the exact wordings are so nice. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). The happiness derived out of it is māyā , illusion. It has no substance. *But for that purpose they have made so much gorgeous arrangement. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Bhagavata is the only literature in the world meant for very highly intelligent class of men. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ (SB 1.1.2). Highly intellectual persons will understand Bhāgavatam very nicely. Try our best. Devotee: So at least these highly intelligent men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, ah, they're not in the government. These men are not in the government. Actually they are in the education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: The professors and advanced students. Prabhupāda: But at the present moment the professors also addicted with these four prohibited. They are lusty, drunkard, gambler. The priests also. All servants of māyā . Devotee: We still have nowhere to go except the young people to make devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Less vitiated, less contaminated. Actually that is happening. Our . . . somebody asked me in Paris a question, "Why younger generations are attracted?" And I immediately, "Because they are not so polluted." The older generation, they're polluted, it will take time for forgetting what they have done. The younger generation, they are receptive and they are not so much polluted. They are not old fools.Actually that is the fact. So old generation, they are sophisticated. By nature younger generation they are inquisitive and receptive, by nature. Therefore from the very beginning if they are given good guidance, their life is successful. That is the Vedic civilization. Just like that small boy. You ask him to offer obeisance, he does. Doesn't matter what will happen in his future life. But this life he is so innocent, you could train him. Just like your son: the training from the very beginning, just like we have been trained by our parents—and that makes value. So our New Vrindavan was meant for training small children, and that is not being done. Then? What is the use of it? What for it is now being used? Devotee (3): Well, the money . . . all the money has been used for acquiring land. Now there is one building that they are beginning. You have seen a plan. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (3): That is the first modern building to be constructed. Already they have begun. They have bulldozed the land. They haven't built the house, but they have bulldozed the land; they've leveled the land. Prabhupāda: Which portion? Devotee (3): Hmm? Prabhupāda: Which portion of the land? Devotee (3): Oh, you know . . . you remember where the school, that little white schoolhouse was, by the road? At the beginning of the road. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Schoolhouse it is known. Devotee (3): Yes. Not far from there, up higher, where some trees are. I would say maybe a hundred yards back down the road, the macadam road. Off the road, in the trees. Prabhupāda: That is our land now? Devotee (3): Yes. It is very nice. We have all the hay we need now. So many hay fields. Before we were purchasing, expensive. But now there is enough hay for all the cows. So Hayagrīva prabhu's plan is to continue the construction gradually. And with this building, if this building is done properly, there will be a place for the children. Devotee (2): That will be the place? Devotee (3): At least there's room. The children don't have to live in that building necessarily, but there has to be some bathing facilities. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (3): The bathing facilities would be in that building. Prabhupāda: So there is water supply? Devotee (3): I don't know the details. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the śāstra it is said that when there are many hills, it attracts lightning. Is it a fact? Devotee (3): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Karandhara: They have lightning rods on all the houses. Prabhupāda: Ha? Karandhara: They have lightning rods on their houses. Prabhupāda: Lightning? Karandhara: Lightning rods. You put them on the house, so if the lightning comes it will strike the rod and will be grounded into the ground. Prabhupāda: The rocks are broken. You have seen sometimes rocks are broken? Huh? So that is due to lightning. Just like we sometimes break the rocks by dynamite, nature's way, as soon as rocks are out from the sea, by nature's way they are broken by the lightning, and then gradually level land comes. So the thunderbolt generally falls on the hills. Is it a fact? Huh? That is stated in some ślokas in the . . . example is given. Ah. When Varāhadeva killed that Hiraṇyākṣa, this example was there. Just like the lightning thunderbolt shatters the hills, immediately He broke the big giant into pieces. This example. Therefore the big hilly tract of land attracts thunderbolts. Then that tract of land must be inviting some thunderbolt? Because West Virginia is full of hills only, is it not? That is very good for living condition? Devotee: I haven't heard of a lot of lightning striking, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hayagrāva prabhu has never mentioned a lot of lightning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Hayagrāva prabhu has never mentioned that there has been a lot of lightning striking. I haven't heard. There's also an alternative to temporary. Bhagavān dāsa prabhu has gotten this house, additional to the temple in Detroit. It's the . . . a big carriage house with facilities. He has suggested . . . Prabhupāda: Carriage? Devotee: Carriage house. Like a garage, behind the other house. This has rooms in it, everything—full house, with facilities. Perhaps the children could go there and attend school. That's a possibility we discussed. To keep them together. Prabhupāda: All airplanes, they are made by Boeing company? Karandhara: No. There is two big ones: Boeing and Douglas. Prabhupāda: Douglas? Karandhara: Douglas. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Karandhara: It's in Long Beach, Lakewood. Not far from here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Throughout the whole world they are manufacturing? Karandhara: Yes. Douglas is very big also. Not as big as Boeing, but very big. Prabhupāda: Because all airplanes I see: Boeing. So there are so many companies they are taking supply from Boeing. Karandhara: Boeing is the biggest. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is Seattle? Karandhara: Seattle . . . Boeing has factories all over. Prabhupāda: Oh. Karandhara: Seattle, Los Angeles, all over the United States. Prabhupāda: In Europe they are also being supplied? No. France they have got some factories. Karandhara: Yes. They supply all over the world. Prabhupāda: Huh? Karandhara: Boeing supplies all over the world. In fact in Seattle . . . Air India bought two of those great big ones in Seattle. We were going to get some free rides there, but Air India, they decided not to give them to us. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Karandhara: Air India, they bought two great big 747 jets, like the one you went to Hawaii in when you left here. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Karandhara: They bought two big ones, and they were bringing them to India. So we inquired from them if we could have some free passages to India. Prabhupāda: Ha. Karandhara: So at first they said we could, but then they changed their mind and said we couldn't. The man in Seattle, the Air India man, said we could. The Air India man in New York said no, he wouldn't let them do it. So it's too late. They have already gone to India. Prabhupāda: They will go empty, India? Karandhara: No. They sold seats to diplomats and people, other people, at a discount rate. They sold seats. (end) Arrival -- July 16, 1971, Detroit Prabhupāda: It has become very satisfactory that so many devotees, boys and girls, are taking part in this great movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is very important movement, because it is correcting the human civilization. There is a great defect in the modern civilization, that people are accepting this body as self, and based on this mistake in the foundation, everything is going wrong. The basic principle of civilization—accepting this body as the soul—is the beginning of all problems. The great philosophers, scientist, theologist and thoughtful men, they do not know what is the defect. Recently I was in Moscow. I had a nice talk with a big professor of Indology, Professor Kotovsky. So he was speaking that, "Swāmījī, after this finishing, annihilation of this body, everything is finished." So I was astonished that a learned professor who is posing himself on a very responsible post, he has no idea about the soul and the body, how they are different, how the soul migrating from one body to another. And everyone is accepting this body as the self and, "There is no life after death, therefore make the best use of this bad bargain and enjoy sense gratification as far as possible." But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is checking this wrong progress of human civilization. Our first proposition is that, "You are not this body, you are spirit soul. Some way or other, you are in contact with this material world, and you have got this material body, and under illusion, you are accepting something which you are not." So basic principle of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct the wrong foundation of the human civilization. *In the Bhagavad*-gītā this is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. When Arjuna was identifying himself with this body and bodily relationship, Kṛṣṇa first of all corrected that "You are not this body." So if we do not understand these first steps of spiritual knowledge, then where is the question of making further progress? Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13). This is the verdict of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *Yasya ātma*-buddhiḥ : one who has accepted as self kuṇape tri-dhātuke , this bag of bones and flesh and blood . . . this body is made of . . . according to Vedic medicine or Vedic anatomy, it is made of three elements—mucus, bile and air. Tri-dhātuke . Apart from that medical science, this body, one who accepts this body as self as sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu , and persons in relationship with this body as kinsmen, own men, bhauma ijya-dhīḥ , and the land where we take our birth as worshipable, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), he is accepted as go-kharaḥ . Go means cow, and khara means ass. That means animals. The animal, they accept this, that "I am this body." But human form of life, which is so advanced in knowledge . . . Airport speaker: Ladies and gentlemen, I have to ask you to clear the boarding area so we can start our flight. Prabhupāda: If . . . they are speaking us? They are speaking about ourself? We shall stop? All right. Then we shall go? Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end) Arrival -- July 16, 1971, Detroit Prabhupāda: It has become very satisfactory that so many devotees, boys and girls, are taking part in this great movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is very important movement, because it is correcting the human civilization. There is a great defect in the modern civilization, that people are accepting this body as self, and based on this mistake in the foundation, everything is going wrong. The basic principle of civilization—accepting this body as the soul—is the beginning of all problems. The great philosophers, scientist, theologist and thoughtful men, they do not know what is the defect. Recently I was in Moscow. I had a nice talk with a big professor of Indology, Professor Kotovsky. So he was speaking that, "Swāmījī, after this finishing, annihilation of this body, everything is finished." So I was astonished that a learned professor who is posing himself on a very responsible post, he has no idea about the soul and the body, how they are different, how the soul migrating from one body to another. And everyone is accepting this body as the self and, "There is no life after death, therefore make the best use of this bad bargain and enjoy sense gratification as far as possible." But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is checking this wrong progress of human civilization. Our first proposition is that, "You are not this body, you are spirit soul. Some way or other, you are in contact with this material world, and you have got this material body, and under illusion, you are accepting something which you are not." So basic principle of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct the wrong foundation of the human civilization. *In the Bhagavad*-gītā this is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. When Arjuna was identifying himself with this body and bodily relationship, Kṛṣṇa first of all corrected that "You are not this body." So if we do not understand these first steps of spiritual knowledge, then where is the question of making further progress? Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13). This is the verdict of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *Yasya ātma*-buddhiḥ : one who has accepted as self kuṇape tri-dhātuke , this bag of bones and flesh and blood . . . this body is made of . . . according to Vedic medicine or Vedic anatomy, it is made of three elements—mucus, bile and air. Tri-dhātuke . Apart from that medical science, this body, one who accepts this body as self as sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu , and persons in relationship with this body as kinsmen, own men, bhauma ijya-dhīḥ , and the land where we take our birth as worshipable, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), he is accepted as go-kharaḥ . Go means cow, and khara means ass. That means animals. The animal, they accept this, that "I am this body." But human form of life, which is so advanced in knowledge . . . Airport speaker: Ladies and gentlemen, I have to ask you to clear the boarding area so we can start our flight. Prabhupāda: If . . . they are speaking us? They are speaking about ourself? We shall stop? All right. Then we shall go? Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end) Conversation -- July 18, 1971, Detroit Mohsin Hassan: . . . quite, came four weeks ago, and I received the response from you. I think I had the letter with me, and you indicated that you would like to meet me and give me some hint, a suggestion for my thesis writing. So here I am first to introduce myself to you and hope to learn some more about the objective of the movement. And maybe I could put in the thesis, and to be . . . Prabhupāda: We require help from personalities like you, because it is very important movement, checking a great mistake in the modern civilization. *The (break) modern civilization is very risky. Risky in this sense: that the human form of life is an opportunity for self*-realization, but our leaders, they are miseducating that, "You are this body." A basic mistake. But I am not this body, but just like you are sitting there, if I take account of your shirt and coat only, not you as a person, then there is a great mistake. *Similarly, the modern civilization, education, everything is based on this bodily concept of life. But actually we are not body. Body is my shirt and coat. Mind, intelligence and ego, that is the shirt, finer dress. And this five*-element body—earth, water, air, fire, ether—this is gross. Just like shirt and coat. Similarly, we are dressed, the spirit soul. The spirit soul is also a measure, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important in this sense, that they are trying to bring people to the constitutional position. A living entity is transmigrating from one body to another, as we are in our present body also, we are transmigrating. In my childhood I had a small body. That body is no longer existing, but I am existing. So there is no reason to believe that when I give up this body I'll not exist. No. I shall exist, but in another body. So people are not interested to make research work how the soul is working and so on. This is ignorance. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to revive the pure consciousness of the human society so that he can know himself and act accordingly. Then his life is successful. Mohsin Hassan: May I ask you, my master, how did this movement formed, came to the Western world? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . your question is how this movement . . . Mohsin Hassan: Yes, how this movement was formed when you came here. You are the father of this movement. How this idea was created in the beginning? Because everybody asks me this question, how this movement . . .? *Prabhupāda: The movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very firm . . . the other room . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was there, so Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was there. India, it was existing. Unfortunately, some of the less intelligent svāmīs and philosophers, they could not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, and they misinterpreted the Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore people could not understand. In spite of reading Bhagavad-gītā all the world over, they were not aware what is Kṛṣṇa, although Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa understanding. You have read Bhagavad-gītā ? Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes, all of it. From beginning to end. *Prabhupāda: So it is the book to understand Kṛṣṇa, but these people, unscrupulous people, even great scholars, they tried to explain something on the . . . taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad*-gītā . Instead of understanding Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to present something of their concoction through the Bhagavad-gītā . So this movement was already there since five thousand years. But these, I may say, the foolish scholars, they suppressed it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it. Five hundred years ago he revived it. So from Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time we are trying to revive this movement in different way. Different way. *And about two hundred years ago, hundred and fifty years ago, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura revived it, and then about fifty years ago, my Guru Mahārāja, he revived it, and he also ordered me that, "You go and preach this philosophy to the Western world." So under his order I came, and I presented Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , as you have read. Mohsin Hassan: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So the acceptance has been very marvelous, because the things are presented in pure form, so it has acted very nice. Otherwise, it is not a movement that I have manufactured something. No. The movement was already there. I am simply presenting as it is. That is my service. That's all. Mohsin Hassan: My master, what's your opinion on the Ramakrishna Mission? There are Ramakrishna Mission in Chicago. *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission, if I say it frankly, they distorted the Bhagavad*-gītā to the greatest extent. Yes. Because they presented somebody as Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, as God. Ramakrishna said that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma," and they accepted it. But one thing is, anybody can say that, "I am the same Rāma, I am the same Kṛṣṇa." First of all we have to see the proof. So many . . . there are many ways of . . . to understand. So Ramakrishna Mission is pushing on this, I mean to say, wrong idea. *But another thing is that supposing this Ramakrishna is the same Kṛṣṇa, then the philosophy is different. Ramakrishna's philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā's philosophy is different, because Ramakrishna says that you can accept any method; *every method is all right. But Kṛṣṇa says only unto Him, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam ( BG 18.66). "Give up everything. Simply surrender unto Me." Now Kṛṣṇa says one: "Simply surrender unto Me," and Ramakrishna says that you can accept any way. So which one we shall accept? Kṛṣṇa's or Ramakrishna's? What is your opinion? If something is spoken by Kṛṣṇa and something is spoken by Ramakrishna, so which one we shall prefer to accept? Mohsin Hassan: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's the answer. Therefore Ramakrishna Mission is misguiding. Mohsin Hassan: There is another question many people like to know about. They visit the temples in Chicago and many temples all over the United States. They are fascinated in the ritual things, the ara . . . during the offering food to the Deities, and especially this initiation service. I would like to record the meaning of these ritual things, because it's very important to explain in great detail about it. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is, this is essential for advancing in spiritual consciousness. Just like kindergarten system, the children are given some wooden, I mean, some plans to form A, B and C like that . . . (indistinct) . . . so this not like . . . exactly like the . . . kindergarten . . . system. This system is introduced by great ācāryas , authorities. So we have to follow. In the beginning we have no love for Kṛṣṇa, so this process will help how to invoke his love for Kṛṣṇa. This is standard process. Mohsin Hassan: This is the basic philosophy of the ritual. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are introduced by great ācāryas . You'll find, if you go in India, there are many thousands of temples, the same things are being followed from, shall we say, thousands and thousands of years—not only since the time of Kṛṣṇa; *before the time of Kṛṣṇa. This is called arcana*-vidhi , the regulative principle for worshiping the Lord. Therefore . . . so they have to be . . . Pañca . . . this is called Pañcarātrika-vidhi , the regulative principle on the authority of Nārada Pañcarātra . So they must be followed. Otherwise one cannot be purified. This is purificatory process. Mohsin Hassan: Would you please mention something about the meaning of the ritual of the initiation. They put their hand in the oil and the burning of the fire, for example. Prabhupāda: They are not putting their hand on the oil. It is called yajña , offering ghee to the fire. This is Vedic. This is Vedic rituals, to offer clarified butter and grains in the fire. Fire is supposed to be the mouth of God. So we are offering eatables to the Supreme Person, rūpa . Mohsin Hassan: What is the goal of this movement for the future? Is there any program set for the future? Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine movement, it will make progress, provided it is presented in pure form. It was not presented before me in pure form, at least in the Western countries. Therefore people could not take it, nor they could understand it. Now it is being placed in pure form in the right way of paramparā system, as the ācāryas introduced, and actually it is happening. It is . . . they are taking. Wherever they are going, people are very much anxious to take this movement, as if they are waiting. Anywhere we go, even we have sent men to . . . Jerusalem. (aside) What town? . . . (indistinct) Devotee: In Russia? Prabhupāda: Yes. So this method is very effective, and people are accepting, any part of the world, without any discrimination. Here mostly you see our students are from the Christian group, the Jewish group, there are many students from Muhammadan group, from Parsi group. Everyone is taking. Mohsin Hassan: Now, this movement must have structure. Will you please tell us about the structure of the movement from the hierarchy on the top, and all the way down. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . this movement is started from Kṛṣṇa. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, from Kṛṣṇa, Nārada. From Nārada, Vyāsadeva. From Vyāsadeva to Madhvācārya, from Madhvācārya to Īsvara Puri, Mādhavendra Puri, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then His disciples, the six Goswāmīs, then Kṛṣṇa dāsa Kavirāja, then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa. So we are taking account very rigidly from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and I am the tenth generation from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mohsin Hassan: Yeah, the tenth. After you, is it . . . any decision has been made who will take over? Prabhupāda: Yes. All of them will take. These students who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. Mohsin Hassan: How many svāmīs do you initiated, American? I'm speaking just on the American . . . Prabhupāda: About ten. Mohsin Hassan: You have ten svāmīs . And outside of svāmīs , what's the lower . . . Prabhupāda: Now, they're competent. They can . . . not only the svāmīs , even the gṛhasthas , they are called dāsa adhikārī , and brahmacārīs , everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciple. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread. Become, to whom, I mean, recruit more members in this. They do, but they are being trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of my disciples, he is acting as priest. Instead of myself; he is acting. So some of my students, they are acting as priest, some of them are svāmīs . So they are competent to make disciples. Mohsin Hassan: Do you have any hope in the future that you . . . your movement will involve printing a lot of books, making . . . building schools for your children, for . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got already many books. You have not seen? Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. I have almost all of your printed, but I'm trying to prepare . . . Ramakrishna, they have big library and bookstore, and this is where goes most of their income. I was wondering . . . and many . . . they have so many scholars for this movement because they are for a variety of religions. And one argument I always receive from some teacher, they say this movement insists on the chanting, and they are not trying to open all the other doors for other religion. And I have no answer to them. Prabhupāda: What is that? Mohsin Hassan: They tell me that . . . the Ramakrishna Mission, they offer all kinds variety of books about every religion. Prabhupāda: We have got varieties of books. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got at least twelve books, four hundred pages, different ways we are presenting. But our main aim is, end is, Kṛṣṇa, to understand Kṛṣṇa through different philosophical thoughts. We have presented, I think. You have not . . .? You say you say you have seen all these books. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have got Kṛṣṇa , Teachings of Lord Caitanya , Nectar of Devotion , Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Easy Journey to Other Planets , Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is the Topmost Yoga System . In this way we have presented so many. Mohsin Hassan: How about the meaning of the chanting. You are . . . you insist on chanting. *Prabhupāda: Chanting is to make the process very easy. Because in this age people are unfortunate, short*-living, and they are attracted in false things, they are very slow, they do not take it very seriously. Therefore chanting is a common platform. Anyone can chant. Anyone, even the child can chant, the old man can chant, the fool can chant, the intelligent can chant, the rich can chant, the poor can chant. So the chanting is the common, therefore it is becoming successful. And chanting means, Kṛṣṇa being absolute, Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Absolute means there is no duality. As in this dual world there is difference between the name and the substance, in the absolute world there is no difference between the name and the substance. Both of them are the same. So therefore chanting of Kṛṣṇa name means associating with Kṛṣṇa directly. And because we are associating with Kṛṣṇa directly, they're quickly becoming purified. Just like if you touch a metal rod with the fire, it becomes warm, and then it acquires the quality of the fire. The metal rod, you can touch anywhere, it will burn, although it is metal rod. But because it acquired the quality of the fire, it can burn—it can act as fire. Similarly, if we constantly associate with Kṛṣṇa, then we acquire the spiritual quality. Then we can act as spiritual very quickly. This is the point. Mohsin Hassan: My master, many people are interested to know something about you, and I found just not enough to know about you, and I could write volumes about your life. Could you expand about your life? Prabhupāda: Well, a sannyāsī should not be inquired about his life. What he's acting, that's all. But I was formerly gṛhastha , householder, that's all. My life is described in short in the *Īśopaniṣad* , so you can see it from there. Mohsin Hassan: Could you recall the beginning of your first trip to USA and how you spread the message? I was told that you came here with six dollars, and then . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because our government, India government, would not allow to take money to go outside. So somehow or other I got the P*-form sanction, and one big shipping company, they allowed me free passage. So I came here with great difficulty. Of course I was very comfortably situated on the sea, but still, because I am not accustomed, I got sea-sickness. So the travel was very miserable. Still I came. *Then for one year, I was going here and there, there was no fixed*-up position, and then in 19 . . . I came here in 1965, September, then 1966, July, I incorporated the Society and started my preaching in a storefront, and . . . Second Avenue. *And then gradually the students came and it developed, one branch after another. Now we have got sixty branches, and our expenditure is very heavy. According to Indian calculation it is about 700,000's of rupees. We are paying heavy rent. We have got in each center not less than twenty*-five devotees, up to hundred, hundred and fifty. So it is going on by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Mohsin Hassan: Now what do you expect from your disciple, basic thing? Prabhupāda: They will also preach, just as I am preaching. Mohsin Hassan: I see. Prabhupāda: They'll preach the same thing. As I am preaching according to my spiritual master's instruction, similarly they will preach according to my instruction. Mohsin Hassan: What if someone deviated from your teaching? Prabhupāda: There is no loss. This was . . . I was explaining. Because this, it is spiritual science. Anything spiritual, that is eternal. It is never, I mean to say, lost, never destroyed. So whatever they have learned, that is basic for further learning. Suppose they cannot finish the total process, program, then they will get a chance, another chance to begin in the human form. So practically there is no loss. As ordinary beings, whatever they are creating in this life, after giving up this body everything is lost. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even it is not completed, whatever they have learned, that will go with them, because it is spiritual; it will not be destroyed. *But they're being trained up to finish the course and program within this life, not to wait for the next life. That is our goal. They have got the regulative principles that, "You must follow this, that no illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling, and chanting in a prescribed method Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , taking only Kṛṣṇa prasādam , and be twenty-four-hours . . ." *You'll find, whenever you'll come to our temple, you'll find they're busy with something. Similarly, we are simply busy with Kṛṣṇa business. We try to remember Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. That is our method. *So this method of religious prescription I think you'll not find. At least in the Western world you won't find. Twenty*-four hours they're engaged. Twenty-four hours. Mohsin Hassan: Serving the Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: May I ask you about, for example, we have Bahulāśva. He's married, he has two children, twins. Now, how is the future as you foresee it, from now until his . . . *Prabhupāda: Our everyone's future is Kṛṣṇa. You believe in Kṛṣṇa, and nobody of our group has got any need, because we believe in Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "Those who are engaged in my service, I personally attend to their needs," yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). *Perhaps you know this. Those who are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, Kṛṣṇa is supplying the necessities of everyone, because Kṛṣṇa is God. So God is supplying the necessities of everyone. That is one thing. But He takes special interest for those who are devotees, pure devotees. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "I am equal to everyone. Nobody is My enemy, nobody is My friend. But anyone who is engaged in My service with love and devotion, I am especially attached to them." So Kṛṣṇa is feeding even cats and dogs, and why He shall not feed us, we are engaged in His service? Why? It is simply a question of understanding. One should know that Kṛṣṇa is feeding the elephant, Kṛṣṇa is feeding the ant. So there are 8,400,000 species of living entities. So if one who has completely forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is feeding them, then why not we? We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa. So it is a question of confidence and surrender. But actually we have no problem. So far our children are going, these boys, they are taking prasādam , we are taking prasādam , we are traveling all over the world, spending, as I told you, about 700,000's of rupees per month, but we have no source of income fixed. We have no business. Nobody goes to the factory, nobody goes to work, but still we are maintaining our establishment. Mohsin Hassan: And this is a . . . simply a real miracle. Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's getting late. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: It's getting late, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So I am . . . (indistinct) Mohsin Hassan: Will you accept a comment about, final thing, what do you suggest for me to put my energy on, and present beautiful picture, nicely . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so you try to understand the whole philosophy nicely, then you'll paint the picture all right. Unless you understand very nicely . . . so not only one sitting. You have to question, and I shall answer. You have to learn this philosophy. But one thing is that unless one is submissive to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he follows the Vaiṣṇava principles, it is a little difficult to understand. Mohsin Hassan: I thank you very much for this wonderful interview. I hope I'll give you a copy of what you said as soon as I type it down, and I shall keep in contact with you in the future. Prabhupāda: You are welcome Mohsin Hassan: There are many, many teacher of DePaul University—I am of DePaul University—interested to meet you, and this just to invite you in the future for some lecture. Prabhupāda: So you try to understand our philosophy from any angle of vision and we shall be able to answer. There will be no difficulty. Because we are taking our lessons from Kṛṣṇa. So there is no difficulty to answer any opposite element. Mohsin Hassan: Thank you again. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: . . . First Canto Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Third, Fourth, Fifth. These five big, big books, not less than thousand pages each, and Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , eleven hundred pages. So . . . and each book will cost us twenty thousand, twenty-five thousand. So any amount of money will come we can engage in printing books. Mohsin Hassan: Yeah. It seems to me this is the biggest problem, the cost of operations. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Kṛṣṇa is giving. You have seen our publication? Mohsin Hassan: No. I have seen the books. I have most of them. Prabhupāda: Small Bhāgavata , chapterwise it is publishing. It is very scholarly. Bring some chapters of *Bhāgavatam* . Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda, he has almost all of them. Prabhupāda: You have got the chapterwise *Bhāgavatam* ? *Devotee: Those little tiny ones, Śrīla Prabhupāda? The soft*-covered ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Devotee: Like The Lord in the Heart ? He has them. Prabhupāda: He has got. There you will see how it is scholarly written. Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. Wonderful. *Prabhupāda: So we are publishing all our books in a scholarly way so that professors, teachers, philosophers, they . . . they can read it. And it is very easily done. Word*-to-word, Sanskrit word, English, and diacritic marks. So we are working very hard. So if it is introduced among the scholarly sections, professors, teachers, it will be very beneficial to the human society. Mohsin Hassan: Do you do your printing in Japan and America? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I am . . . whenever I travel, I travel all over, around the world. Mohsin Hassan: I want to ask . . . just a few more minutes. You went to Russia. What's your impression? Prabhupāda: Yes, Russia is the same people. They are anxious to receive this movement. Very much anxious. Mohsin Hassan: And are you intent to . . . (indistinct) . . . over there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: I see. Prabhupāda: But their government is very strict. Government is very strict. So unless we get permission from the government . . . because they have no culture in literature. They're simply reading this Lenin book. So one professor, a Dr. Kotovsky, he told me that Indian *Rāmāyaṇa* , Tulsi dasa's *Rāmāyaṇa* —that's not very good philosophy—still, it was translated into Russian language, and within a week, all the books are sold. Just see. So they are hankering after this cultural book. Unfortunately, we have no means now; otherwise there is immense, good field for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Russia. Mohsin Hassan: You are the founder of this movement. You are the founder. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mohsin Hassan: Is it the same you found in all over the world, everybody speak the language, English*-speaking language, you went and you did the same thing—you went up there, chant, and with the miracle of Lord Kṛṣṇa you received your devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: . . . and disciple? Prabhupāda: The same process. We follow the same process, anywhere. It doesn't matter whether it is America or Russia or Europe. It doesn't matter. Japan. The same process. Mohsin Hassan: So you are intent to serve the Lord Kṛṣṇa in the same method for ever. Prabhupāda: Yes, because I am ordered by my spiritual master in that way. So I am trying my best. That's all. Mohsin Hassan: How old are you? Prabhupāda: I? Mohsin Hassan: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I am now seventy*-six. *Mohsin Hassan: Seventy*-six. Do you have any children, family? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mohsin Hassan: How many? *Prabhupāda: I have got great*-grandchildren. Mohsin Hassan: You have two sons? Prabhupāda: I have two sons. I have three sons . . . two sons, two daughters. Mohsin Hassan: They were, I was told, associated with Gandhi. What's your relation with Mahatma Gandhi? Prabhupāda: Gandhi . . . in my young age I was Nationalist, so I followed Gandhi. I was interested. Later on, when I met my spiritual master, I became disinterested with this temporary, ephemeral things, you see. So this is permanent. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is permanent. It is very long subject matter. We are simply dreaming. All these activities are just like at night you dream, but they are all false. Whatever you dream at night, they're not facts, they're false. Similarly, these are also daydream, these activities. Daydream. They're also false. The only thing what we can actually take benefit out of it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. It will take some time . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 18, 1971, Detroit Mohsin Hassan: . . . quite, came four weeks ago, and I received the response from you. I think I had the letter with me, and you indicated that you would like to meet me and give me some hint, a suggestion for my thesis writing. So here I am first to introduce myself to you and hope to learn some more about the objective of the movement. And maybe I could put in the thesis, and to be . . . Prabhupāda: We require help from personalities like you, because it is very important movement, checking a great mistake in the modern civilization. *The (break) modern civilization is very risky. Risky in this sense: that the human form of life is an opportunity for self*-realization, but our leaders, they are miseducating that, "You are this body." A basic mistake. But I am not this body, but just like you are sitting there, if I take account of your shirt and coat only, not you as a person, then there is a great mistake. *Similarly, the modern civilization, education, everything is based on this bodily concept of life. But actually we are not body. Body is my shirt and coat. Mind, intelligence and ego, that is the shirt, finer dress. And this five*-element body—earth, water, air, fire, ether—this is gross. Just like shirt and coat. Similarly, we are dressed, the spirit soul. The spirit soul is also a measure, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important in this sense, that they are trying to bring people to the constitutional position. A living entity is transmigrating from one body to another, as we are in our present body also, we are transmigrating. In my childhood I had a small body. That body is no longer existing, but I am existing. So there is no reason to believe that when I give up this body I'll not exist. No. I shall exist, but in another body. So people are not interested to make research work how the soul is working and so on. This is ignorance. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to revive the pure consciousness of the human society so that he can know himself and act accordingly. Then his life is successful. Mohsin Hassan: May I ask you, my master, how did this movement formed, came to the Western world? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . your question is how this movement . . . Mohsin Hassan: Yes, how this movement was formed when you came here. You are the father of this movement. How this idea was created in the beginning? Because everybody asks me this question, how this movement . . .? *Prabhupāda: The movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very firm . . . the other room . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was there, so Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was there. India, it was existing. Unfortunately, some of the less intelligent svāmīs and philosophers, they could not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, and they misinterpreted the Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore people could not understand. In spite of reading Bhagavad-gītā all the world over, they were not aware what is Kṛṣṇa, although Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa understanding. You have read Bhagavad-gītā ? Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes, all of it. From beginning to end. *Prabhupāda: So it is the book to understand Kṛṣṇa, but these people, unscrupulous people, even great scholars, they tried to explain something on the . . . taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad*-gītā . Instead of understanding Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to present something of their concoction through the Bhagavad-gītā . So this movement was already there since five thousand years. But these, I may say, the foolish scholars, they suppressed it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it. Five hundred years ago he revived it. So from Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time we are trying to revive this movement in different way. Different way. *And about two hundred years ago, hundred and fifty years ago, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura revived it, and then about fifty years ago, my Guru Mahārāja, he revived it, and he also ordered me that, "You go and preach this philosophy to the Western world." So under his order I came, and I presented Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , as you have read. Mohsin Hassan: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So the acceptance has been very marvelous, because the things are presented in pure form, so it has acted very nice. Otherwise, it is not a movement that I have manufactured something. No. The movement was already there. I am simply presenting as it is. That is my service. That's all. Mohsin Hassan: My master, what's your opinion on the Ramakrishna Mission? There are Ramakrishna Mission in Chicago. *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission, if I say it frankly, they distorted the Bhagavad*-gītā to the greatest extent. Yes. Because they presented somebody as Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, as God. Ramakrishna said that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma," and they accepted it. But one thing is, anybody can say that, "I am the same Rāma, I am the same Kṛṣṇa." First of all we have to see the proof. So many . . . there are many ways of . . . to understand. So Ramakrishna Mission is pushing on this, I mean to say, wrong idea. *But another thing is that supposing this Ramakrishna is the same Kṛṣṇa, then the philosophy is different. Ramakrishna's philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā's philosophy is different, because Ramakrishna says that you can accept any method; *every method is all right. But Kṛṣṇa says only unto Him, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam ( BG 18.66). "Give up everything. Simply surrender unto Me." Now Kṛṣṇa says one: "Simply surrender unto Me," and Ramakrishna says that you can accept any way. So which one we shall accept? Kṛṣṇa's or Ramakrishna's? What is your opinion? If something is spoken by Kṛṣṇa and something is spoken by Ramakrishna, so which one we shall prefer to accept? Mohsin Hassan: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's the answer. Therefore Ramakrishna Mission is misguiding. Mohsin Hassan: There is another question many people like to know about. They visit the temples in Chicago and many temples all over the United States. They are fascinated in the ritual things, the ara . . . during the offering food to the Deities, and especially this initiation service. I would like to record the meaning of these ritual things, because it's very important to explain in great detail about it. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is, this is essential for advancing in spiritual consciousness. Just like kindergarten system, the children are given some wooden, I mean, some plans to form A, B and C like that . . . (indistinct) . . . so this not like . . . exactly like the . . . kindergarten . . . system. This system is introduced by great ācāryas , authorities. So we have to follow. In the beginning we have no love for Kṛṣṇa, so this process will help how to invoke his love for Kṛṣṇa. This is standard process. Mohsin Hassan: This is the basic philosophy of the ritual. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are introduced by great ācāryas . You'll find, if you go in India, there are many thousands of temples, the same things are being followed from, shall we say, thousands and thousands of years—not only since the time of Kṛṣṇa; *before the time of Kṛṣṇa. This is called arcana*-vidhi , the regulative principle for worshiping the Lord. Therefore . . . so they have to be . . . Pañca . . . this is called Pañcarātrika-vidhi , the regulative principle on the authority of Nārada Pañcarātra . So they must be followed. Otherwise one cannot be purified. This is purificatory process. Mohsin Hassan: Would you please mention something about the meaning of the ritual of the initiation. They put their hand in the oil and the burning of the fire, for example. Prabhupāda: They are not putting their hand on the oil. It is called yajña , offering ghee to the fire. This is Vedic. This is Vedic rituals, to offer clarified butter and grains in the fire. Fire is supposed to be the mouth of God. So we are offering eatables to the Supreme Person, rūpa . Mohsin Hassan: What is the goal of this movement for the future? Is there any program set for the future? Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine movement, it will make progress, provided it is presented in pure form. It was not presented before me in pure form, at least in the Western countries. Therefore people could not take it, nor they could understand it. Now it is being placed in pure form in the right way of paramparā system, as the ācāryas introduced, and actually it is happening. It is . . . they are taking. Wherever they are going, people are very much anxious to take this movement, as if they are waiting. Anywhere we go, even we have sent men to . . . Jerusalem. (aside) What town? . . . (indistinct) Devotee: In Russia? Prabhupāda: Yes. So this method is very effective, and people are accepting, any part of the world, without any discrimination. Here mostly you see our students are from the Christian group, the Jewish group, there are many students from Muhammadan group, from Parsi group. Everyone is taking. Mohsin Hassan: Now, this movement must have structure. Will you please tell us about the structure of the movement from the hierarchy on the top, and all the way down. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . this movement is started from Kṛṣṇa. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, from Kṛṣṇa, Nārada. From Nārada, Vyāsadeva. From Vyāsadeva to Madhvācārya, from Madhvācārya to Īsvara Puri, Mādhavendra Puri, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then His disciples, the six Goswāmīs, then Kṛṣṇa dāsa Kavirāja, then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa. So we are taking account very rigidly from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and I am the tenth generation from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mohsin Hassan: Yeah, the tenth. After you, is it . . . any decision has been made who will take over? Prabhupāda: Yes. All of them will take. These students who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. Mohsin Hassan: How many svāmīs do you initiated, American? I'm speaking just on the American . . . Prabhupāda: About ten. Mohsin Hassan: You have ten svāmīs . And outside of svāmīs , what's the lower . . . Prabhupāda: Now, they're competent. They can . . . not only the svāmīs , even the gṛhasthas , they are called dāsa adhikārī , and brahmacārīs , everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciple. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread. Become, to whom, I mean, recruit more members in this. They do, but they are being trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of my disciples, he is acting as priest. Instead of myself; he is acting. So some of my students, they are acting as priest, some of them are svāmīs . So they are competent to make disciples. Mohsin Hassan: Do you have any hope in the future that you . . . your movement will involve printing a lot of books, making . . . building schools for your children, for . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got already many books. You have not seen? Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. I have almost all of your printed, but I'm trying to prepare . . . Ramakrishna, they have big library and bookstore, and this is where goes most of their income. I was wondering . . . and many . . . they have so many scholars for this movement because they are for a variety of religions. And one argument I always receive from some teacher, they say this movement insists on the chanting, and they are not trying to open all the other doors for other religion. And I have no answer to them. Prabhupāda: What is that? Mohsin Hassan: They tell me that . . . the Ramakrishna Mission, they offer all kinds variety of books about every religion. Prabhupāda: We have got varieties of books. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got at least twelve books, four hundred pages, different ways we are presenting. But our main aim is, end is, Kṛṣṇa, to understand Kṛṣṇa through different philosophical thoughts. We have presented, I think. You have not . . .? You say you say you have seen all these books. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have got Kṛṣṇa , Teachings of Lord Caitanya , Nectar of Devotion , Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Easy Journey to Other Planets , Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is the Topmost Yoga System . In this way we have presented so many. Mohsin Hassan: How about the meaning of the chanting. You are . . . you insist on chanting. *Prabhupāda: Chanting is to make the process very easy. Because in this age people are unfortunate, short*-living, and they are attracted in false things, they are very slow, they do not take it very seriously. Therefore chanting is a common platform. Anyone can chant. Anyone, even the child can chant, the old man can chant, the fool can chant, the intelligent can chant, the rich can chant, the poor can chant. So the chanting is the common, therefore it is becoming successful. And chanting means, Kṛṣṇa being absolute, Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Absolute means there is no duality. As in this dual world there is difference between the name and the substance, in the absolute world there is no difference between the name and the substance. Both of them are the same. So therefore chanting of Kṛṣṇa name means associating with Kṛṣṇa directly. And because we are associating with Kṛṣṇa directly, they're quickly becoming purified. Just like if you touch a metal rod with the fire, it becomes warm, and then it acquires the quality of the fire. The metal rod, you can touch anywhere, it will burn, although it is metal rod. But because it acquired the quality of the fire, it can burn—it can act as fire. Similarly, if we constantly associate with Kṛṣṇa, then we acquire the spiritual quality. Then we can act as spiritual very quickly. This is the point. Mohsin Hassan: My master, many people are interested to know something about you, and I found just not enough to know about you, and I could write volumes about your life. Could you expand about your life? Prabhupāda: Well, a sannyāsī should not be inquired about his life. What he's acting, that's all. But I was formerly gṛhastha , householder, that's all. My life is described in short in the *Īśopaniṣad* , so you can see it from there. Mohsin Hassan: Could you recall the beginning of your first trip to USA and how you spread the message? I was told that you came here with six dollars, and then . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because our government, India government, would not allow to take money to go outside. So somehow or other I got the P*-form sanction, and one big shipping company, they allowed me free passage. So I came here with great difficulty. Of course I was very comfortably situated on the sea, but still, because I am not accustomed, I got sea-sickness. So the travel was very miserable. Still I came. *Then for one year, I was going here and there, there was no fixed*-up position, and then in 19 . . . I came here in 1965, September, then 1966, July, I incorporated the Society and started my preaching in a storefront, and . . . Second Avenue. *And then gradually the students came and it developed, one branch after another. Now we have got sixty branches, and our expenditure is very heavy. According to Indian calculation it is about 700,000's of rupees. We are paying heavy rent. We have got in each center not less than twenty*-five devotees, up to hundred, hundred and fifty. So it is going on by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Mohsin Hassan: Now what do you expect from your disciple, basic thing? Prabhupāda: They will also preach, just as I am preaching. Mohsin Hassan: I see. Prabhupāda: They'll preach the same thing. As I am preaching according to my spiritual master's instruction, similarly they will preach according to my instruction. Mohsin Hassan: What if someone deviated from your teaching? Prabhupāda: There is no loss. This was . . . I was explaining. Because this, it is spiritual science. Anything spiritual, that is eternal. It is never, I mean to say, lost, never destroyed. So whatever they have learned, that is basic for further learning. Suppose they cannot finish the total process, program, then they will get a chance, another chance to begin in the human form. So practically there is no loss. As ordinary beings, whatever they are creating in this life, after giving up this body everything is lost. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even it is not completed, whatever they have learned, that will go with them, because it is spiritual; it will not be destroyed. *But they're being trained up to finish the course and program within this life, not to wait for the next life. That is our goal. They have got the regulative principles that, "You must follow this, that no illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling, and chanting in a prescribed method Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , taking only Kṛṣṇa prasādam , and be twenty-four-hours . . ." *You'll find, whenever you'll come to our temple, you'll find they're busy with something. Similarly, we are simply busy with Kṛṣṇa business. We try to remember Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. That is our method. *So this method of religious prescription I think you'll not find. At least in the Western world you won't find. Twenty*-four hours they're engaged. Twenty-four hours. Mohsin Hassan: Serving the Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: May I ask you about, for example, we have Bahulāśva. He's married, he has two children, twins. Now, how is the future as you foresee it, from now until his . . . *Prabhupāda: Our everyone's future is Kṛṣṇa. You believe in Kṛṣṇa, and nobody of our group has got any need, because we believe in Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "Those who are engaged in my service, I personally attend to their needs," yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). *Perhaps you know this. Those who are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, Kṛṣṇa is supplying the necessities of everyone, because Kṛṣṇa is God. So God is supplying the necessities of everyone. That is one thing. But He takes special interest for those who are devotees, pure devotees. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "I am equal to everyone. Nobody is My enemy, nobody is My friend. But anyone who is engaged in My service with love and devotion, I am especially attached to them." So Kṛṣṇa is feeding even cats and dogs, and why He shall not feed us, we are engaged in His service? Why? It is simply a question of understanding. One should know that Kṛṣṇa is feeding the elephant, Kṛṣṇa is feeding the ant. So there are 8,400,000 species of living entities. So if one who has completely forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is feeding them, then why not we? We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa. So it is a question of confidence and surrender. But actually we have no problem. So far our children are going, these boys, they are taking prasādam , we are taking prasādam , we are traveling all over the world, spending, as I told you, about 700,000's of rupees per month, but we have no source of income fixed. We have no business. Nobody goes to the factory, nobody goes to work, but still we are maintaining our establishment. Mohsin Hassan: And this is a . . . simply a real miracle. Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's getting late. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: It's getting late, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So I am . . . (indistinct) Mohsin Hassan: Will you accept a comment about, final thing, what do you suggest for me to put my energy on, and present beautiful picture, nicely . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so you try to understand the whole philosophy nicely, then you'll paint the picture all right. Unless you understand very nicely . . . so not only one sitting. You have to question, and I shall answer. You have to learn this philosophy. But one thing is that unless one is submissive to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he follows the Vaiṣṇava principles, it is a little difficult to understand. Mohsin Hassan: I thank you very much for this wonderful interview. I hope I'll give you a copy of what you said as soon as I type it down, and I shall keep in contact with you in the future. Prabhupāda: You are welcome Mohsin Hassan: There are many, many teacher of DePaul University—I am of DePaul University—interested to meet you, and this just to invite you in the future for some lecture. Prabhupāda: So you try to understand our philosophy from any angle of vision and we shall be able to answer. There will be no difficulty. Because we are taking our lessons from Kṛṣṇa. So there is no difficulty to answer any opposite element. Mohsin Hassan: Thank you again. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: . . . First Canto Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Third, Fourth, Fifth. These five big, big books, not less than thousand pages each, and Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , eleven hundred pages. So . . . and each book will cost us twenty thousand, twenty-five thousand. So any amount of money will come we can engage in printing books. Mohsin Hassan: Yeah. It seems to me this is the biggest problem, the cost of operations. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Kṛṣṇa is giving. You have seen our publication? Mohsin Hassan: No. I have seen the books. I have most of them. Prabhupāda: Small Bhāgavata , chapterwise it is publishing. It is very scholarly. Bring some chapters of *Bhāgavatam* . Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda, he has almost all of them. Prabhupāda: You have got the chapterwise *Bhāgavatam* ? *Devotee: Those little tiny ones, Śrīla Prabhupāda? The soft*-covered ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Devotee: Like The Lord in the Heart ? He has them. Prabhupāda: He has got. There you will see how it is scholarly written. Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. Wonderful. *Prabhupāda: So we are publishing all our books in a scholarly way so that professors, teachers, philosophers, they . . . they can read it. And it is very easily done. Word*-to-word, Sanskrit word, English, and diacritic marks. So we are working very hard. So if it is introduced among the scholarly sections, professors, teachers, it will be very beneficial to the human society. Mohsin Hassan: Do you do your printing in Japan and America? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I am . . . whenever I travel, I travel all over, around the world. Mohsin Hassan: I want to ask . . . just a few more minutes. You went to Russia. What's your impression? Prabhupāda: Yes, Russia is the same people. They are anxious to receive this movement. Very much anxious. Mohsin Hassan: And are you intent to . . . (indistinct) . . . over there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: I see. Prabhupāda: But their government is very strict. Government is very strict. So unless we get permission from the government . . . because they have no culture in literature. They're simply reading this Lenin book. So one professor, a Dr. Kotovsky, he told me that Indian *Rāmāyaṇa* , Tulsi dasa's *Rāmāyaṇa* —that's not very good philosophy—still, it was translated into Russian language, and within a week, all the books are sold. Just see. So they are hankering after this cultural book. Unfortunately, we have no means now; otherwise there is immense, good field for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Russia. Mohsin Hassan: You are the founder of this movement. You are the founder. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mohsin Hassan: Is it the same you found in all over the world, everybody speak the language, English*-speaking language, you went and you did the same thing—you went up there, chant, and with the miracle of Lord Kṛṣṇa you received your devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: . . . and disciple? Prabhupāda: The same process. We follow the same process, anywhere. It doesn't matter whether it is America or Russia or Europe. It doesn't matter. Japan. The same process. Mohsin Hassan: So you are intent to serve the Lord Kṛṣṇa in the same method for ever. Prabhupāda: Yes, because I am ordered by my spiritual master in that way. So I am trying my best. That's all. Mohsin Hassan: How old are you? Prabhupāda: I? Mohsin Hassan: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I am now seventy*-six. *Mohsin Hassan: Seventy*-six. Do you have any children, family? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mohsin Hassan: How many? *Prabhupāda: I have got great*-grandchildren. Mohsin Hassan: You have two sons? Prabhupāda: I have two sons. I have three sons . . . two sons, two daughters. Mohsin Hassan: They were, I was told, associated with Gandhi. What's your relation with Mahatma Gandhi? Prabhupāda: Gandhi . . . in my young age I was Nationalist, so I followed Gandhi. I was interested. Later on, when I met my spiritual master, I became disinterested with this temporary, ephemeral things, you see. So this is permanent. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is permanent. It is very long subject matter. We are simply dreaming. All these activities are just like at night you dream, but they are all false. Whatever you dream at night, they're not facts, they're false. Similarly, these are also daydream, these activities. Daydream. They're also false. The only thing what we can actually take benefit out of it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. It will take some time . . . (break) (end) Conversation with High Commissioner for United Kingdom -- August 4, 1971, London *Devotee: (introducing recording) Discussion between His Divine Grace and Apa Pante, A*-P-A-P-A-N-T-E, High Commissioner for United Kingdom, 4th August, 1971, noon. The recording is not very clear, from being copied from a cassette tape recorder. Please make it out as best as possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: . . . in India by nature they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means they have been . . . (Apa Pante laughs) . . . trained to forget Kṛṣṇa. Like that. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . so it is artificial? Prabhupāda: That is . . . Apa Pante: Hmm. That's normal . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I think you understand some Bengali. There is a verse in Caitanya*-caritamṛta , Apa Pante: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is not an artificial imposition. So everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Apa Pante: Sva*-bhāva. *Prabhupāda: Sva*-bhāva. *Apa Pante: Sva*-bhāva. . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Sva-bhāva . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: Śivo 'ham , śivo 'ham. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But the process recommended in this age by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: So harer nāma —Hare means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa—that simply chanting harer nāma one can be entirely Kṛṣṇa conscious. And actually it is happening. These European and American boys and girls, especially the young men, four years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, but now they are so serious . . . Apa Pante: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have got many Muhammadans, Parsis, yogīs , everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . but nitya siddha kṛṣṇa. Nitya siddha . That means eternally. Apa Pante: Yes, eternally. That is very nice . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so far my belief is that . . . why my belief? It is the belief of the authority, Lord Caitanya. He said that this movement will spread, and people will be happy. So it is a great movement. Every thoughtful man, scientist, philosopher and follower should try to understand. It is authorized, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). Apa Pante: Umalaṁ ? *Prabhupāda: Amalaṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . amalaṁ . Amalaṁ means karma jñāna*-miśra . Amalaṁ means "without any . . ." Apa Pante: Impurities. Prabhupāda: Yes. *So I have already established fifty branches. Now in Calcutta, Bombay also we have got. Now recently we have got a big program to start an institution, kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , on the first five forms Lord Caitanya. So I have already purchased land, but we have to purchase more land. Now . . . Apa Pante: Is it in Bengal? Prabhupāda: It is in Bengal. So my only . . . (indistinct) . . . is that Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi, I was hoping if she can authorize something. We don't want any monetary help from anyone; simply by supporting. So kindly help me, for that purpose. Apa Pante: (laughs) How right you are. Prabhupāda: Not right, but you have to do what is your heart. I want to make this very, very . . . (indistinct) . . . I do not know whether it is . . . (indistinct) . . . I want to . . . (indistinct) . . . but that is my ambition. So last time when I saw, you promised that you would help me with this kind of principle. Apa Pante: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I don’t want anything. Another thing, I see you have got my first book, Kṛṣṇa . Apa Pante: Yes. Is this the second part? Prabhupāda: Yes. Apa Pante: Oh! Beautifully done. Prabhupāda: No, all our literature is coming out very successful. Apa Pante: This is all your literature? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: I see. (laughs) Indeed I'm not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . you order and bless the program . . . we are blessed if you order the program. Back to Godhead . Apa Pante: (laughs) It would be much better to have the God order. Prabhupāda: If you hold up Back to Godhead . . . people are trying to forget God. Without God. Kingdom of God without God. Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So I want to have in India a nice center so that foreign students will go. That . . . what you call it? They were regular students, college for students from America who travel . . . (indistinct) . . . so I want to keep at least one hundred students here. For that purpose also we want some facilities. Because as soon as foreigners go, especially these boys . . . I am very much anxious to help them . . . (indistinct) . . . I do not know why. *Maybe that if we grow in number in India they might be thinking that, "They are also something . . . (indistinct) . . . worldwide movement. This culture is being accepted, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this room you see they look forward to India's spiritual culture. And this is real. Before that, whatever spiritual culture there was in the foreign countries . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have now taken in their own way, that . . . (indistinct) . . . following: evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2) . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . that we are giving fact . . . (indistinct) . . . so somehow or other. Last time I suggested . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: When will you go to India? Prabhupāda: After I've been to festival. I want the festival, then go. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . in India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . when Mrs. Gandhi went to Bengal . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That you will . . . (indistinct) . . . know better. According to our program . . . (indistinct) . . . not that I shall . . . Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. We have purchased the land, now we must . . . (indistinct) . . . lay down the foundations, and then our . . . (indistinct) . . . so I should not completely depend on her . . . (indistinct) . . . but as soon as I know that it will be reserved . . . (indistinct) . . . then I will go there and arrange. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . the organization write a letter . . . Prabhupāda: No, that will not be . . . if you kindly say yes to this proposal, then I shall arrange. Apa Pante: Yes, but . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not in my sphere of duties. Prabhupāda: I don't ask you officially to execute it; I simply request you that you also request on behalf of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. She knows us. She knows us. But if you request her, then she'll . . . she knows about our activities. Some of our boys in Delhi met her when she . . . (indistinct) . . . and she promised also that when I go to Bengal . . . now I want to fix up, and then I go and arrange . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: I would like to. I don't know when I may get an answer, but after I get the answer I will let you know. Are you happy? Prabhupāda: Then I shall wait here. Apa Pante: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Yes. The time being. Of course, as far as this movement is concerned . . . (indistinct) . . . we have got the highest . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa has provided. I have no money to pay them . . . (indistinct) . . . for printing these two books here, you know that boy, George Harrison, he paid me nineteen thousand dollars. So somehow or other I am going on. We are always in want, but our wants are being satisfied somehow or other by Kṛṣṇa. To keep oneself in want is one of the . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: Samudvigna Prabhupāda: Ah, samudvigna , yes. So that Kṛṣṇa will help. The reciprocation from God . . . (indistinct) . . . this is one of the items of śaraṇāgati . . . (indistinct) . . . so it will be nice place. After all, I should have been very much glad by the government. This is the culture, Indian culture, I am trying to . . . and people are accepting. The Indian, all Indian the culture of the government, but unfortunately I am not getting any help. That doesn’t matter, but I am requesting you for this important . . . (indistinct) . . . of this . . . (indistinct) . . . Indira Gandhi. Of course, Jawaharlal Nehru, when I was in Allahabad and he was my customer, I was doing business when he was Municipality chairman. He was my customer . . . (indistinct) . . . Indira Gandhi perhaps a small child. So Jawaharlal Nehru was . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave a presentation at that time of my ointment, so he was very much pleased that . . . (indistinct) . . . He, in 1928, I was . . . (indistinct) . . . he was meeting with Congress continuously, I'd go to see. Motilal Nehru was president . . . (indistinct) So in Calcutta I went to Allahabad; *Calcutta from Allahabad . . . (indistinct) . . . committee. I paid only one rupee. (laughs) I told them that . . . (indistinct) . . . I told that. One rupee, you have paid twenty*-five rupees, that's . . . (indistinct) . . . because they were our men, therefore our people . . . (indistinct) . . . it was the custom of the Congress . . . (indistinct) . . . so for this purpose I request you to help us. It is not very difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . but this is my immediate need . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: It is in the hands of God. I will do the writing, but the end result is not in my hands. *Prabhupāda: But I think it is in your hands . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is in God's hands, but . . . (indistinct) . . . part and parcel of God. Adhikāri*-devatā . Demigod. Adhikāri-devatā . So here also one of the adhikāri-devatās . Then another thing, that is also . . . (indistinct) . . . the missionaries in some other country, when the Christian missionaries go, they stay there. They have got their offices for propaganda. Why our missionaries are prohibited? Whenever they go, they are simply reminded, "Now you have to . . . (indistinct) . . ." *What to do? I want to present you 100 foreigners, but if . . . (indistinct) . . . opportunity. And when they . . . (indistinct) . . . Calcutta, Bombay, Allahabad. In Allahabad Kumbha*-melā our camp was the most glorious camp. Many, many big, big officers came . . . (indistinct) . . . Allahabad . . . (indistinct) . . . they have practically become . . . (indistinct) . . . "How the foreigners are so engaged in devotional service?" Actually that is a fact, because they are not professionals—they are actually taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Apa Pante: What is the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: That visa . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . went from here, and they got a visa for three months and then they extended it six months. So after six months the visa was expired, then I approached the Home Minister at the time, and he said: "Well you must go back." So on a special condition they are extending the stay, and we requested that the people who have come from America, from France, from Europe, they applied the missionary visa from there end and they get it from there. Not that you can extend the missionary visa. We wanted a missionary visa granted from here. Apa Pante: You can do that . . . (indistinct) . . . you can do that. Initially . . . (indistinct) . . . when you are returning there? Devotee: Some are going sometime this month, but it is not all the time. But two people go this month, two people will go next month . . . *Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . British passport*-holders they have . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your opinion of that? Prabhupāda: If the application is from here . . . (indistinct) . . . never mind wherefrom they are coming . . . Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . somebody here . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave his opinion like this: Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa*-tanāya (Caitanya-manjusa). Arādhyo . *So this is our philosophy. What to do? . . . (indistinct) . . . so impartially . . . (indistinct) . . . the religion of Kṛṣṇa is vraja*-bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore especially we Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they go to Vṛndāvana. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Therefore in particularly from Europe now . . . (indistinct) . . . to Vṛndāvana. You will find that seventy-five percent of the population is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-manjusa). There is no higher method of worshiping than what was . . . (indistinct) . . . by the gopīs, vraja-vadhū . . . (indistinct) . . . śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). *There must be some advice in the scripture to follow these principles. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, śrīmad*-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam. Amalaṁ means without any material contamination. And similarly, devotional service mixed with material purpose, or jñāna . . . jñāna means to merge into the existence of the . . . (indistinct) . . . Jñāna , that is the target of jñāna . And karma , karma means to take benediction from God . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to be very, very big man, in general, in this material world. That is karma . *Real bhakti . . . anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmi vibhājitam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (Brs 1.1.11). Simply serve Kṛṣṇa favorably . . . (indistinct) . . . just like Arjuna did. This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . nephews, grandfather. He did not like, but when he saw that Kṛṣṇa wants it, then ānukūla , favorably. If Kṛṣṇa wants it, then he wants it. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. So our this propaganda is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam : what Kṛṣṇa wants, we are trying to make propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says: (claps hands) *(indistinct) . . . if you simply concentrate on Kṛṣṇa . . . of course, in our Hindu system there are so many other things recommended, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā , sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ : a clear fact, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhāgavatam it is said by Devahūti, who instructs Kapiladeva, bhāgavata bāṇam. Bhāgavata bāṇam. Bāṇam means arrow, the arrow which has got established. So if this process is controlled by Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān . . . bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28) . . . Other methods, they may lead to the Absolute, but with vague ideas. Absolute means ānukūl , in three phases: Brahma, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11): the Absolute Truth is understood in three ways. You can see that the jñānīs , Parabrahma. Not Parabrahman, Brahma, Brahma effulgence. But for the yogīs , Paramātmā, antardhyāna , and the bhaktas , the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is bhagavat*-bhakti . It started with directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and if this arrow goes direct to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then it goes through the impersonal Brahma effulgence and localized aspects of Paramātmā. That is automatically understood. *So this movement is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Bhakti*-yoga , first class. And similarly in the Nārada-pañcarātra it says: Hṛṣī : by the senses. If all the senses are always engaged for the sense gratification of the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa, Kṛṣṇa, the master of the senses, then things are engaged in pure devotion. Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually, our senses, they are not our senses . . . (indistinct) . . . so these hands and legs are belonging to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so when these senses are engaged in the service of the proprietor of the senses, that is called bhakti . You cannot engage . . . just like your senses are part and parcel of the human body if they are engaged in the service of the body. You cannot apply your senses for any other . . . that makes you real, a part and parcel. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, in the materialistic way of life, people are conscious to use their senses for a particular designation, "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So here he has accepted a particular type of designation. He is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Indian, nor American. He is brahmacārī , real brahmacārī : ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahma—part and parcel of the Parabrahma. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke (BG 15.7). That realization is required. Unless that realization is there, then, I mean, then your human life is . . . (indistinct) . . . athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.1): one should be inquisitive to know what is the science of Brahma. That is the real function of human life. So, so long we are not engaged in our real function, then it is śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone has got some particular duty. He may perform very nicely his particular designated duty, but if he does not have any Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then śrama eva hi kevalam . So people should, in the midst of his variegated duties . . . in another place it is said: *Hari*-toṣaṇam . That was the injunction for everyone. The brāhmin , he is engaged in his own duties, but the aim is how to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. The kṣatriya is engaged in his duties . . . (indistinct) . . . but aim is how to satisfy the Surpreme Person. Therefore they were called . . . the kṣatriyas were called rājarṣis . Rājarṣi . Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not say imaṁ brāhmaṇa viduḥ . The brāhmins are the . . . (indistinct) . . . the rājarṣis . . . (indistinct) . . . public figure free from the political head, and they were rṣis . All the kings were rṣis , rājarṣi . So Kṛṣṇa says that: Not ordinary man. Because he is the king, he is the right person. If you understand this nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . this is how we follow. *So this is the ideal of our Vedic culture. Now the time has come that people are discussing . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedic literature, based on Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . for India's glory. So actually let us cooperate. There is no personal . . . (indistinct) . . . Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau . One of the Gosvāmīs, he has been described as lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau : Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . you are a very nice ambassador. Very nice. Such an honor . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: (to tape) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (end) Conversation with High Commissioner for United Kingdom -- August 4, 1971, London *Devotee: (introducing recording) Discussion between His Divine Grace and Apa Pante, A*-P-A-P-A-N-T-E, High Commissioner for United Kingdom, 4th August, 1971, noon. The recording is not very clear, from being copied from a cassette tape recorder. Please make it out as best as possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: . . . in India by nature they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means they have been . . . (Apa Pante laughs) . . . trained to forget Kṛṣṇa. Like that. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . so it is artificial? Prabhupāda: That is . . . Apa Pante: Hmm. That's normal . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I think you understand some Bengali. There is a verse in Caitanya*-caritamṛta , Apa Pante: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is not an artificial imposition. So everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Apa Pante: Sva*-bhāva. *Prabhupāda: Sva*-bhāva. *Apa Pante: Sva*-bhāva. . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Sva-bhāva . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: Śivo 'ham , śivo 'ham. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But the process recommended in this age by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: So harer nāma —Hare means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa—that simply chanting harer nāma one can be entirely Kṛṣṇa conscious. And actually it is happening. These European and American boys and girls, especially the young men, four years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, but now they are so serious . . . Apa Pante: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have got many Muhammadans, Parsis, yogīs , everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . but nitya siddha kṛṣṇa. Nitya siddha . That means eternally. Apa Pante: Yes, eternally. That is very nice . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so far my belief is that . . . why my belief? It is the belief of the authority, Lord Caitanya. He said that this movement will spread, and people will be happy. So it is a great movement. Every thoughtful man, scientist, philosopher and follower should try to understand. It is authorized, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). Apa Pante: Umalaṁ ? *Prabhupāda: Amalaṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . amalaṁ . Amalaṁ means karma jñāna*-miśra . Amalaṁ means "without any . . ." Apa Pante: Impurities. Prabhupāda: Yes. *So I have already established fifty branches. Now in Calcutta, Bombay also we have got. Now recently we have got a big program to start an institution, kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , on the first five forms Lord Caitanya. So I have already purchased land, but we have to purchase more land. Now . . . Apa Pante: Is it in Bengal? Prabhupāda: It is in Bengal. So my only . . . (indistinct) . . . is that Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi, I was hoping if she can authorize something. We don't want any monetary help from anyone; simply by supporting. So kindly help me, for that purpose. Apa Pante: (laughs) How right you are. Prabhupāda: Not right, but you have to do what is your heart. I want to make this very, very . . . (indistinct) . . . I do not know whether it is . . . (indistinct) . . . I want to . . . (indistinct) . . . but that is my ambition. So last time when I saw, you promised that you would help me with this kind of principle. Apa Pante: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I don’t want anything. Another thing, I see you have got my first book, Kṛṣṇa . Apa Pante: Yes. Is this the second part? Prabhupāda: Yes. Apa Pante: Oh! Beautifully done. Prabhupāda: No, all our literature is coming out very successful. Apa Pante: This is all your literature? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: I see. (laughs) Indeed I'm not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . you order and bless the program . . . we are blessed if you order the program. Back to Godhead . Apa Pante: (laughs) It would be much better to have the God order. Prabhupāda: If you hold up Back to Godhead . . . people are trying to forget God. Without God. Kingdom of God without God. Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So I want to have in India a nice center so that foreign students will go. That . . . what you call it? They were regular students, college for students from America who travel . . . (indistinct) . . . so I want to keep at least one hundred students here. For that purpose also we want some facilities. Because as soon as foreigners go, especially these boys . . . I am very much anxious to help them . . . (indistinct) . . . I do not know why. *Maybe that if we grow in number in India they might be thinking that, "They are also something . . . (indistinct) . . . worldwide movement. This culture is being accepted, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this room you see they look forward to India's spiritual culture. And this is real. Before that, whatever spiritual culture there was in the foreign countries . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have now taken in their own way, that . . . (indistinct) . . . following: evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2) . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . that we are giving fact . . . (indistinct) . . . so somehow or other. Last time I suggested . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: When will you go to India? Prabhupāda: After I've been to festival. I want the festival, then go. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . in India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . when Mrs. Gandhi went to Bengal . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That you will . . . (indistinct) . . . know better. According to our program . . . (indistinct) . . . not that I shall . . . Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. We have purchased the land, now we must . . . (indistinct) . . . lay down the foundations, and then our . . . (indistinct) . . . so I should not completely depend on her . . . (indistinct) . . . but as soon as I know that it will be reserved . . . (indistinct) . . . then I will go there and arrange. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . the organization write a letter . . . Prabhupāda: No, that will not be . . . if you kindly say yes to this proposal, then I shall arrange. Apa Pante: Yes, but . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not in my sphere of duties. Prabhupāda: I don't ask you officially to execute it; I simply request you that you also request on behalf of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. She knows us. She knows us. But if you request her, then she'll . . . she knows about our activities. Some of our boys in Delhi met her when she . . . (indistinct) . . . and she promised also that when I go to Bengal . . . now I want to fix up, and then I go and arrange . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: I would like to. I don't know when I may get an answer, but after I get the answer I will let you know. Are you happy? Prabhupāda: Then I shall wait here. Apa Pante: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Yes. The time being. Of course, as far as this movement is concerned . . . (indistinct) . . . we have got the highest . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa has provided. I have no money to pay them . . . (indistinct) . . . for printing these two books here, you know that boy, George Harrison, he paid me nineteen thousand dollars. So somehow or other I am going on. We are always in want, but our wants are being satisfied somehow or other by Kṛṣṇa. To keep oneself in want is one of the . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: Samudvigna Prabhupāda: Ah, samudvigna , yes. So that Kṛṣṇa will help. The reciprocation from God . . . (indistinct) . . . this is one of the items of śaraṇāgati . . . (indistinct) . . . so it will be nice place. After all, I should have been very much glad by the government. This is the culture, Indian culture, I am trying to . . . and people are accepting. The Indian, all Indian the culture of the government, but unfortunately I am not getting any help. That doesn’t matter, but I am requesting you for this important . . . (indistinct) . . . of this . . . (indistinct) . . . Indira Gandhi. Of course, Jawaharlal Nehru, when I was in Allahabad and he was my customer, I was doing business when he was Municipality chairman. He was my customer . . . (indistinct) . . . Indira Gandhi perhaps a small child. So Jawaharlal Nehru was . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave a presentation at that time of my ointment, so he was very much pleased that . . . (indistinct) . . . He, in 1928, I was . . . (indistinct) . . . he was meeting with Congress continuously, I'd go to see. Motilal Nehru was president . . . (indistinct) So in Calcutta I went to Allahabad; *Calcutta from Allahabad . . . (indistinct) . . . committee. I paid only one rupee. (laughs) I told them that . . . (indistinct) . . . I told that. One rupee, you have paid twenty*-five rupees, that's . . . (indistinct) . . . because they were our men, therefore our people . . . (indistinct) . . . it was the custom of the Congress . . . (indistinct) . . . so for this purpose I request you to help us. It is not very difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . but this is my immediate need . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: It is in the hands of God. I will do the writing, but the end result is not in my hands. *Prabhupāda: But I think it is in your hands . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is in God's hands, but . . . (indistinct) . . . part and parcel of God. Adhikāri*-devatā . Demigod. Adhikāri-devatā . So here also one of the adhikāri-devatās . Then another thing, that is also . . . (indistinct) . . . the missionaries in some other country, when the Christian missionaries go, they stay there. They have got their offices for propaganda. Why our missionaries are prohibited? Whenever they go, they are simply reminded, "Now you have to . . . (indistinct) . . ." *What to do? I want to present you 100 foreigners, but if . . . (indistinct) . . . opportunity. And when they . . . (indistinct) . . . Calcutta, Bombay, Allahabad. In Allahabad Kumbha*-melā our camp was the most glorious camp. Many, many big, big officers came . . . (indistinct) . . . Allahabad . . . (indistinct) . . . they have practically become . . . (indistinct) . . . "How the foreigners are so engaged in devotional service?" Actually that is a fact, because they are not professionals—they are actually taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Apa Pante: What is the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: That visa . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . went from here, and they got a visa for three months and then they extended it six months. So after six months the visa was expired, then I approached the Home Minister at the time, and he said: "Well you must go back." So on a special condition they are extending the stay, and we requested that the people who have come from America, from France, from Europe, they applied the missionary visa from there end and they get it from there. Not that you can extend the missionary visa. We wanted a missionary visa granted from here. Apa Pante: You can do that . . . (indistinct) . . . you can do that. Initially . . . (indistinct) . . . when you are returning there? Devotee: Some are going sometime this month, but it is not all the time. But two people go this month, two people will go next month . . . *Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . British passport*-holders they have . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your opinion of that? Prabhupāda: If the application is from here . . . (indistinct) . . . never mind wherefrom they are coming . . . Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . somebody here . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave his opinion like this: Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa*-tanāya (Caitanya-manjusa). Arādhyo . *So this is our philosophy. What to do? . . . (indistinct) . . . so impartially . . . (indistinct) . . . the religion of Kṛṣṇa is vraja*-bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore especially we Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they go to Vṛndāvana. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Therefore in particularly from Europe now . . . (indistinct) . . . to Vṛndāvana. You will find that seventy-five percent of the population is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-manjusa). There is no higher method of worshiping than what was . . . (indistinct) . . . by the gopīs, vraja-vadhū . . . (indistinct) . . . śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). *There must be some advice in the scripture to follow these principles. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, śrīmad*-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam. Amalaṁ means without any material contamination. And similarly, devotional service mixed with material purpose, or jñāna . . . jñāna means to merge into the existence of the . . . (indistinct) . . . Jñāna , that is the target of jñāna . And karma , karma means to take benediction from God . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to be very, very big man, in general, in this material world. That is karma . *Real bhakti . . . anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmi vibhājitam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (Brs 1.1.11). Simply serve Kṛṣṇa favorably . . . (indistinct) . . . just like Arjuna did. This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . nephews, grandfather. He did not like, but when he saw that Kṛṣṇa wants it, then ānukūla , favorably. If Kṛṣṇa wants it, then he wants it. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. So our this propaganda is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam : what Kṛṣṇa wants, we are trying to make propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says: (claps hands) *(indistinct) . . . if you simply concentrate on Kṛṣṇa . . . of course, in our Hindu system there are so many other things recommended, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā , sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ : a clear fact, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhāgavatam it is said by Devahūti, who instructs Kapiladeva, bhāgavata bāṇam. Bhāgavata bāṇam. Bāṇam means arrow, the arrow which has got established. So if this process is controlled by Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān . . . bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28) . . . Other methods, they may lead to the Absolute, but with vague ideas. Absolute means ānukūl , in three phases: Brahma, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11): the Absolute Truth is understood in three ways. You can see that the jñānīs , Parabrahma. Not Parabrahman, Brahma, Brahma effulgence. But for the yogīs , Paramātmā, antardhyāna , and the bhaktas , the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is bhagavat*-bhakti . It started with directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and if this arrow goes direct to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then it goes through the impersonal Brahma effulgence and localized aspects of Paramātmā. That is automatically understood. *So this movement is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Bhakti*-yoga , first class. And similarly in the Nārada-pañcarātra it says: Hṛṣī : by the senses. If all the senses are always engaged for the sense gratification of the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa, Kṛṣṇa, the master of the senses, then things are engaged in pure devotion. Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually, our senses, they are not our senses . . . (indistinct) . . . so these hands and legs are belonging to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so when these senses are engaged in the service of the proprietor of the senses, that is called bhakti . You cannot engage . . . just like your senses are part and parcel of the human body if they are engaged in the service of the body. You cannot apply your senses for any other . . . that makes you real, a part and parcel. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, in the materialistic way of life, people are conscious to use their senses for a particular designation, "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So here he has accepted a particular type of designation. He is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Indian, nor American. He is brahmacārī , real brahmacārī : ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahma—part and parcel of the Parabrahma. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke (BG 15.7). That realization is required. Unless that realization is there, then, I mean, then your human life is . . . (indistinct) . . . athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.1): one should be inquisitive to know what is the science of Brahma. That is the real function of human life. So, so long we are not engaged in our real function, then it is śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone has got some particular duty. He may perform very nicely his particular designated duty, but if he does not have any Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then śrama eva hi kevalam . So people should, in the midst of his variegated duties . . . in another place it is said: *Hari*-toṣaṇam . That was the injunction for everyone. The brāhmin , he is engaged in his own duties, but the aim is how to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. The kṣatriya is engaged in his duties . . . (indistinct) . . . but aim is how to satisfy the Surpreme Person. Therefore they were called . . . the kṣatriyas were called rājarṣis . Rājarṣi . Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not say imaṁ brāhmaṇa viduḥ . The brāhmins are the . . . (indistinct) . . . the rājarṣis . . . (indistinct) . . . public figure free from the political head, and they were rṣis . All the kings were rṣis , rājarṣi . So Kṛṣṇa says that: Not ordinary man. Because he is the king, he is the right person. If you understand this nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . this is how we follow. *So this is the ideal of our Vedic culture. Now the time has come that people are discussing . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedic literature, based on Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . for India's glory. So actually let us cooperate. There is no personal . . . (indistinct) . . . Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau . One of the Gosvāmīs, he has been described as lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau : Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . you are a very nice ambassador. Very nice. Such an honor . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: (to tape) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1971, London Mr. Arnold: . . . takes the name of the nearest town. Prabhupāda: So where is that town, eh? Mr. Arnold: Near the island of Zetland. Devotees: In the Orkneys. Prabhupāda: Zetland. Devotees: In the Orkneys. Prabhupāda: But, he was, he was known as Lord Ronaldsay when he was Governor, in Bengal. And later on, when he was seen one of, by one of my Godbrother, he came about thirty years ago, 1935, at that time he was known as Marquis of Zetland. So, the same person, perhaps he was known in India as Lord Zetland, because India, the governors and the viceroys, they're mostly Lords. They are not accustomed to know marquis or this. Mr. Arnold: Marquis is a, is a higher title. Prabhupāda: (aside) Keep it there, I shall . . . keep it. So this Lord Ronaldsay, he was invited by our principal, because he also happened to be Scotsman. So I was at that time a boy. So he's elderly. At least at that time he was our father's age. He's still alive? No. Mr. Arnold: The older Lord Zetland, m'lord? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: No, I don't think so. No. I think he died, and consequently Lord Ronaldsay, and his son, take on the title of Marquis of Zetland. Prabhupāda: He immediately inquired, "How many you have philosophical students?" So our principal replied that this is I.A., I.A. class. So I.A. means Intermediate Art. Devotee: There's a phone call for Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Oh, it's Mr. Ambuja. Prabhupāda: So you can call him to come here. We can talk. So our principal said that this is I.A. class; they haven't got philosophy, but most of them have got logic, preliminary philosophy. So he was interested also. "All right, how many you have taken, logic?" So I was also student (laughing) of logic. In this way we were introduced. But I know, he was very nice gentleman, and fond of Indian philosophy and culture. He studied them. And the Gandhi, during Gandhi's movement, there was a great leader in Calcutta, Sealdah, he was a big lawyer. So government ordered that he should be arrested. So before arresting, Lord Ronaldsay called him at his house, that "It will be very much painful for me to arrest you. If you kindly give up this movement." So he said, "No, you can arrest me. I cannot give up." So later on he was arrested. But before arresting, he called him at his (laughs) . . . A very nice gentleman, but government ordered, what can he do? Another governor, he was Indian. He was the first Indian governor, Lord Sinha. So when he was requested to arrest Gandhi, he immediately resigned: "So you are asking me to arrest? Why not ask some English governor to arrest him?" So he resigned. Mr. Arnold: I think there's still two Indians . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Mr. Arnold: . . . who sit in the House of Lords. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indians? Dhanañjaya: Two Indians, MPs. Mr. Arnold: No, they're titled Lords; they're peers. They sit in the House of Lords. Prabhupāda: Maybe son of Lord Sinha. Mr. Arnold: Maybe. I wouldn't know. Prabhupāda: Because this is hereditary title. Mr. Arnold: Yes, m'lord. Prabhupāda: They deposit some money to the government. Dhanañjaya: Someone was saying that the head of the Liberal . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhanañjaya: The head of the Liberal department was an Indian. Prabhupāda: He may be domiciled here. There are many Indians domiciled. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, I don't think anyone with the title "Lord" in India, they can become member of the Parliament. Because . . . because India is not now . . . but he may be Commonwealth. But is it, is there any rule that Commonwealth member can become Parliament member? Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes, there's various people sit in the House of Lords, m'lord, who are not British at all. We've got Australians, New Zealanders. Prabhupāda: But Australia is in, now in, still in touch with England. The Australians, in the stand, the Queen's picture is there. Mr. Arnold: Yes, oh, yes, but even so, the, their . . . Prabhupāda: Canadian, they're in touch. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But India, now, at the present moment, it is simply in name Commonwealth member. Actually, in the matters of governing, there is no . . . Mr. Arnold: No, but these people have received their titles for service to the British Empire in the past. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: And of course it's a hereditary title. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mr. Arnold: So naturally it hands down from father to son. Prabhupāda: Then how you can be elected? Mr. Arnold: You can't be elected to this house. It's quite impossible. Śyāmasundara: That was Mrs. Ambuja, and she said he'll be back about eight o'clock, and either they'll come directly over here, or they'll call first. Prabhupāda: Hm. Śyāmasundara: 6:30 now. Prabhupāda: So we can talk at that time. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, okay. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Saha. You know him? Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord. Prabhupāda: Heh? Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord. Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him. Prabhupāda: Oh, it's not . . .? Śyāmasundara: That was pure gold, practically. His, that jewelry is practically pure gold. Prabhupāda: He tested it? Śyāmasundara: They had it tested, yeah. Mr. Arnold: He's off. Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him. Mr. Arnold: He says one thing, and then a few days after he says something else which completely refutes what he said in the first place. Śyāmasundara: That's the problem. We have to really work with trustworthy people. Prabhupāda: No, that kind of man cannot help us. Śyāmasundara: No, we have to work with very trustworthy men, because it's too big, it's too important. Dhanañjaya: I think he's out for prestige. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He's out for prestige. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: Known in this country, m'lord, as a social climber. Śyāmasundara: Social climber. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hmm. So decide like that, then when he comes, I shall talk with him. Śyāmasundara: Ok. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: We try for that. Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, I could find out where George is. I have a few numbers I want to call to try and find him. Prabhupāda: George, being out of . . . station . . . don't count upon him. Śyāmasundara: No, but he'll be back soon. Prabhupāda: So, when he comes then we'll . . . that is different. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and if I know when he's coming, I'll be prepared to see him. *Dhanañjaya: We're going on this Bhāgavata*-saptāha . Should we still . . . should we still? *Prabhupāda: What? That Bhāgavata*-saptāha , that is attractive to the Indians, but the Indians have no cooperative feeling. Then what is the use? Śyāmasundara: Let us this week find out from different Indian men if they're going to be willing, and next Saturday I'll know for sure. Dhanañjaya: Yes, that's . . . Prabhupāda: And another thing is that the Indians, they're inclined to keep their Hindu element, hodgepodge—demigods, this, that . . . *Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our Deities they'll want to install Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa only, that's right. Dhanañjaya: Well. (laughs) *Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our temple, now they all want to install Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is out of sentiment. Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They thought that "If Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa is there, people will come." Dhanañjaya: Yes. I went, I went to visit them . . . Prabhupāda: Here is a different atmosphere. That they cannot create. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: That requires sincere devotion. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. I went to an installation ceremony. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Dhanañjaya: I went to an . . . I was invited with some other devotees to go to an installation ceremony in a temple in the East End of London, and they were installing Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities there, and at the same time they were having a marriage ceremony was going on. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: A marriage ceremony was going on, along with the installation ceremony. Prabhupāda: What is that ceremony? Merge? Śyāmasundara: Marriage. Prabhupāda: Marriage. Dhanañjaya: Right. Prabhupāda: This hodgepodge, they . . . Dhanañjaya: Yes, and there was this, this one, they had this one, like a professional priest was there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: And he was saying over again, oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi, and again and again he'd be saying the first line of Gāyatrī mantra, like he was chanting japa. And he would start to sing it, and he'd sing louder, and he was cavorting with this microphone, and it was all so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) So, how it is going on so that . . . Dhanañjaya: The same one that . . . who gave us these Deities. Śyāmasundara: Gave us these Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: So when Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa came here, they ordered more Deities from India, you see, and this was the installation ceremony for these . . . Prabhupāda: When it was held? Dhanañjaya: This was about two years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Two years ago. Śyāmasundara: It was right after we left, I think. Dhanañjaya: About two years ago. Prabhupāda: How it is going on now? Dhanañjaya: Oh, I don't know. I've never been back. Śyāmasundara: They don't have much. Devotee: It is simply sentimentality. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Sentimental. Prabhupāda: That's all. Who will go there? *Śyāmasundara: We went there for a durgā*-pūjā one night, too. I remember. They dance around the room. Prabhupāda: They take it as recreation. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: There is no philosophy. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: There is no seriousness. Then our is different. We are training people how to become real devotee. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is different. Dhanañjaya: Yes. They're also, they were garlanding the Deities with beads. They were giving Kṛṣṇa japa beads, (laughs) putting on. Prabhupāda: They're not guided. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like they are chanting Gāyatrī mantra loudly. That is another rascaldom. *Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Goyal is a self*-appointed guru . Prabhupāda: Oh! He, he wants to become a guru ? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is. Śyāmasundara: They have ambitions, to be guru . Dhanañjaya: And all these meetings, all these meetings I've been to, they're all saying: "We must remain Hindu. We must not forget our culture. We may be in England, but we are Hindus." Like this. "India, she is our real mother, not this England. India, she is our real mother. We must be thinking of India, and to become always thinking of Hindus." Śyāmasundara: How to, how to get rupees out of India. Prabhupāda: So therefore it is very difficult to get their cooperation. They're mentality is, they don't want to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. They want to remain Hindu. Hindu means hodgepodge, that's all. Hindu means hodgepodge. Dhanañjaya: And at the same time . . . Prabhupāda: Hindu means Śaṅkara philosophy. Śyāmasundara: Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: Yes, that God has no form, and you can imagine any form and worship for your material benefit. This is at the present moment. And we said that we are not Hindus. Hindu is a Muhammadan title, given. Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? (laughing) Śyāmasundara: That startles you. You didn't know that? Dhanañjaya: No! (laughing) *Prabhupāda: Hindu, there is no such word in the Vedic literature. You won't find this word in Bhāgavata , or Bhagavad*-gītā . The Muhammadans outside India, they used to call the sindhus , sindhu . There is a river, Sindhu river. From Sindhu to Hindu. They cannot speak "s," they call "ha." In this way it is a hodgepodge word, but it has come that Vedic followers as "hindus," but this word is not found in any authorized scripture, no. *Our, our system, culture is varṇāśrama*-dharma . That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā , cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ, varṇa ( BG 4.13). Varṇa means four sections: brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra . That is real Vedic culture. That Vedic culture can be all over the world. Why in India? We are trying for that, to get the Vedic culture, which is acceptable by everyone. It is meant for everyone. Śyāmasundara: So actually Śaṅkara introduced this five gods . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . system. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara had no universal idea, but still the Śaṅkarites, they won't accept outside brahmin caste. They won't allow sannyāsa unless he's a caste brahmin. It is still going on. That is their strict principle. Now it is dwindling—that is a different thing. But we Vaiṣṇavas, we, according to Bhagavad*-gītā , whatever one may be, if he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness he's eligible to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu Centre they, the only symbol they have is an oṁ , a big oṁ sign, and at the beginning they have a prayer to the oṁ sign. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist. Dhanañjaya: Yes. And their ārati ceremonies are terrible. Śyāmasundara: Their what? Dhanañjaya: Āratis are terrible. Prabhupāda: Terrible? Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Why is that? Dhanañjaya: " Jaya , oṁ jaya jagadīśa hare ." Prabhupāda: Oh, that, cry like anything. Dhanañjaya: Yes, and at the end they sing oṁśānti oṁśānti śānti śānti oṁ . Prabhupāda: So, that determination, "We want to remain Hindu," that is the basic principle of their defect. We cannot get any cooperation from them. Śyāmasundara: They're . . . those are mostly women. There's not many men at these ceremonies. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Mostly those are women also. Prabhupāda: Must be women, because these men, if they could not understand the philosophy, they are rascals. So now religious sentiment expressed by these women, that's all. That is, that is not our purpose. We want to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world. If we say that, "We are Hindus," we may be Hindus, but it is for everyone. Śyāmasundara: There's one or two Hindu leaders that are with us. Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, there are many enemies for me, because I am making brahmins . They do not like that. Śyāmasundara: Oh, then it won't be their property anymore . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . if it goes out of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, this, I think this Devānanda was bright. There are so many things, you see, I don't want to discuss publicly. So I am becoming popular on my own strength. Nobody is helping me. Śyāmasundara: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Rather you are helping me; from India I am not getting any help. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Neither by the government nor by the people. Śyāmasundara: So many big men we went to see. Even, even our own American government is helping us more than . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . the Indian government. Dhanañjaya: Also the BBC. I think BBC is like a father. British Broadcasting Corporation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: It's very, very helpful. Very much in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: BBC. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's an important organization? Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: Either that or they were . . . they're spying on us. Prabhupāda: No, any sane man, he will appreciate. Dhanañjaya: Yes, it's a very intelligent organization. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: BBC, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is government is coming here. Śyāmasundara: They acknowledged that they came to Nairobi to take films of you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, they did. Dhanañjaya: And these two radio programs yesterday. They're very important also. Prabhupāda: So, actually we're very important. What is your impression? Mr. Arnold: Of the, of the programs, my lord? Or . . . Prabhupāda: No, our, this mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mr. Arnold: I think it's, it's just the thing that is needed at the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is so. The, what United Nations could not do, we can do that—provided people agree to our terms. These four terms: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling. But that is very difficult. Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. (laughter) Prabhupāda: We put these terms, that is thunderbolt. That is thunderbolt. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Most young people think, "Well I've tried it . . ." Prabhupāda: The whole Western civilization is based on these principles, and we say break these four pillars (laughing), then come to me. That we don't get many followers. There is this condition. If that, like Maharishi, if I would have said: "Oh, no, you can do whatever you like." Śyāmasundara: Oh, you would have millions. Prabhupāda: "Simply pay me 35 dollars, and I give you special mantra." This bluff . . . Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . sell you a free pass into heaven. Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. Mr. Arnold: In the old, in the old days—indulgences. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. The Catholic Church, they, they used to sell passes into heaven, for you or your family—you pay so much, you get to go to heaven. Prabhupāda: Just see. The Muhammadans also they do. (laughter). The Aga Khan. He was doing that. If the man dies, so Aga Khan will give a draft. You know draft? Mr. Arnold: Yes, we know draft. Prabhupāda: So draft will be also within the coffin. So when he goes to hell or heaven . . . Śyāmasundara: He'll have some money. Prabhupāda: He'll get money. Draft. (laughter) And people are paying. You know this Aga Khan's business? Mr. Arnold: Aga Khan? Yes. Prabhupāda: Aga Khan. He was doing this. He was a guru of a section of Muhammadans, very rich section. Śyāmasundara: Nairobi they . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: In Nairobi they were . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So . . . and all the money he was spending in racehorse. Aga Khan had special horse. Devotee: He has become one of the richest men in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: I used to ski with him in Switzerland. *Prabhupāda: And all his officers are Hindus, in Bombay. He never trusted Muhammadans (laughter). Not only that, Aga Khan, even Muhammadan emperors that . . . their all important men were Hindus. Just like Rūpa*-Sanātana. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana. Huh? Devotee: They were Muhammadans. Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus. Devotee: Muhammadan government. Śyāmasundara: They were brahmins . Prabhupāda: No. They were brahmins , but because they accepted ministership from Nawab Hussein Shah, they were rejected from the strict brahmin community: "So you are now servant of a Muhammadan, your, you cannot call yourself a brahmin ." That's a fact. So they were rejected. Their names were also changed: Dhabir Khan or Dhabir Khās, and Sākara Mallik. *And they were mixing with big, big Muhammadan chiefs and landlords and, therefore about them Śrīnīvās Ācārya has written, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa*-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat (Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka 4): "He gave up the aristocratic society as very insignificant and preferred to become a mendicant." This is the picture. So. (aside) You can sit down. They were very big ministers, Caitanya Mahāprabhu made them Gosvāmī. *They were thrown by the Hindu society, or brahmin society, rejected them that, "They have become Muhammadan." And actually, just like in our younger days, in our father's time, if one should come to England for education, he has to pass through some prāyaścitta : shaving the head, and have some big ceremony, and feed the brahmins and spend so much money—then you will be accepted in the society. Otherwise you cannot enter the society. He went to mleccha*-deśa , mleccha-deśa , and he has eaten meat and he has mixed with so many, so he will not be accepted. Śyāmasundara: He had to be repurified. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one of our community men, so he became barrister, and when he went back, so he was asked by the brahmins, that "You must undergo this prāyaścitta ceremony." Dhanañjaya: Because he had associated with . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: . . . Muhammadans. Śyāmasundara: Englishmen, Englishmen. Dhanañjaya: Englishmen? Śyāmasundara: Englishmen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: He's using an example from his early boyhood. Prabhupāda: So he became so sorry that he went to take bath in the Ganges and drowned himself, committed suicide. Another, he was also college man, he later on became a very big doctor, Dr. R. L. Dutta, M.D. He also came for education, medical education, here. When he went back, all his father—not father—mother requested, "My dear boy, you have to do this otherwise you will be extricated from the society." So he decided that "I shall leave this society." So, to . . . mother unwillingly granted him permission: "Then you go out. Otherwise our whole family will be extricated." So he simply asked his wife, "Whether you want to go with me or remain here?" She said: "I am your wife. I must go where you go." So the husband and wife went away, and later on they accepted . . . they rejected Hindu religion, they became Brahmo. At that time Brahmo religion was going on. Brahmo religion means . . . Rāmānanda, he was also Rāmānanda Rāya, so he introduced a system of Brahmo religion on the basis of impersonal worship of Upaniṣad. Same church, Rabindranath Tagore's. You know Rabindranatha Tagore's name? Mr. Arnold: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Tagore, the big poet. Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: His father, his father introduced. So he became a Brahmo. They don't worship deities. Impersonal. And they can eat anything, whatever they like. The real facility was that they want to eat meat, pigs, or wine. That would not be allowed. You see? Indians, they did not know how to drink. It was either Hindus or Muhammadans. Amongst the Muhammadans, drinking is a great sin, is it not? Mr. Arnold: Still. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still. They don't drink. That's a great sin. Similarly Hindu. Dhanañjaya: I believe this is introduced by the English. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Dhanañjaya: This drinking is introduced by the English. Prabhupāda: Yes. They did not know how to drink tea even. Yes. Mr. Arnold: Gosh. *Prabhupāda: Society girls or meat*-eating or drinking tea—these things were introduced by the Englishmen. They did not know. Devotee: This is Clive? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: This is Lord Clive? Prabhupāda: No, after Lord Clive. Lord Clive was in the beginning. He established the British rule there, by cheating Nawab Siraj Daula. So after Lord Clive, then Lord Hastings. Devotee: Hastings. Śyāmasundara: Hastings Street in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was, what is called, Hastings, that big speaker, Burke? When a man is chastised in Parliament, what is called? Dhanañjaya: Chief Whip. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: When a man is chastised. Mr. Arnold: No, no, not whip, not whip. A man's . . . Mr. Speaker, you mean? Prabhupāda: Not Speaker. Śyāmasundara: If a man is chastised in Parliament, what is the name? What is the term they use? Mr. Arnold: They withdraw the whip. If he's chastised. Prabhupāda: There is a technical. Mr. Arnold: Well, they call it . . . it's chastised, which means to say that when they withdraw the whip, he then has to leave the house for so long until the whip is restored. They're not allowed to sit without the whip. Prabhupāda: Impeachment, yes. Śyāmasundara: Impeachment. Prabhupāda: Impeachment of Warren Hasting. That's a big book. Śyāmasundara: Oh. The American president. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: There was an American president named Warren Hastings. Mr. Arnold: No, there was this Lord Hastings in India. Śyāmasundara: Oh, Lord Hastings. Prabhupāda: Impeachment of . . . he was Warren Hastings, Lord Hastings. He was impeached by one Mr. Burke. So his writings we read, we had prescribed. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Burke's speeches, some Englishman's speeches, out of them. Śyāmasundara: Edmund Burke. Prabhupāda: Edmund Burke, yes. So he impeached this Warren Hastings for his misbehavior in India. Dhanañjaya: So he was so notorious. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He was so notorious. Prabhupāda: Everyone was . . . I think it was so in the Parliament. Mr. Arnold: But Hastings, my lord, surely was trying to be a decent fellow, wasn't he, and uh . . . (laughter) No, he really was, and I am, how I understand it, first of all the whole Indian subcontinent was being sort of taken for a ride by English people out there, you know. They were really trying to make themselves very rich, very quick, and the, and the Parliament in London, they got so scared that they, they first of all removed many of these people, and replaced them by . . . Prabhupāda: That is natural, if you are in important post, then you take bribe. Mr. Arnold: Yeah, this is why they put Hastings there. But Hastings . . . Prabhupāda: Well Hastings, all the governors used to do it. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The system was, if some presentation was given to the governor or viceroy, it was to be not his personal property. It was kept as government property. So, these governors made a trick that the presentation may be given to his wife. So it was not government's property, it was the governor's wife property. (laughter) These things are going on. Śyāmasundara: I remember the story you told us once about an Englishman, and that man wouldn't let him sit on his bench. Prabhupāda: Yes, in our childhood we have seen it. Even Lord Clive. Lord Clive, at that time there was, when he cheated Siraj Daula. Now he wanted to establish, he wanted to construct Calcutta city. So he wanted some money. So he approached one Indian banker, Sukhamaya Raya. Sukhamaya Raya, at that time Clive was giving facilities, who were helping them. The modern aristocracy in Calcutta was practically made by the Britishers. *They used to give titles, that's all. And give land, and that land is Indian land. So if I, if I say: "You can go and take as much land as you like," well what is the loss of the Britishers? But that man became very obliged, "Oh, the Britisher has given me so much land." (laughter) This was false. I take from Mr. Arnold's pocket, and I pay you. You think, "Oh, Swāmījīis so liberal." (laughter) You do not care that I have pick*-pocketed your own man. This was going on. But they did not take any money from England. Rather, they brought all the money from India here. Yes. So the foolish person, they thought that, "As soon we meet any Englishmen, I become rich." Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha : As soon as you become a friend of any nice Englishman, your fortune is start. And that was being done (laughter). That was being done, because they wanted men. That anyone knew, every city, he's immediately given some important post. Śyāmasundara: Civil Service. Prabhupāda: Yes. A little English knowledge. Dhanañjaya: And a title. Prabhupāda: Some title and money. But they want some clerks, they want some helper. So people began to learn English, and . . . but they didn't want to give high education. No. Simply to become clerks. So one gentleman, Motilal Sil, he was very rich man, so he saw that, "Now English education is very important." So he wanted to start a college, for free education, so that poor man may take English. Because India was poor, so they could not pay for education. The government stopped, "No, you cannot give free higher education." The government did not want, because the government knew that as the, as soon as these people will be highly educated, they will read history, (laughter) and they will know how to . . . they will know how to revolt, how to fight. And actually that became. Devotee: That happened. That happened. Prabhupāda: They did not want to open the secret. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I'll bet they . . . I'll bet they didn't know England was a small island, either. Prabhupāda: Ah. (laughter) And, and somebody goes, he goes, he's near some village, he becomes Lord . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord this, Lord that, but "Where is your Lordship's . . .? You have got so small village." But they wanted to keep their prestige. That was the point. That Gandhi broke this prestige, false prestige. Otherwise, "Oh, Englishmen, they're coming from heaven." (laughter) And they maintained that prestige, somehow or other. Devotee: Chums for a little village. Prabhupāda: Ahah. (laughs) So, and Indians, and there was a Lord Macaulay's note, what is called that, "If you want to keep these Indians in their original culture, you'll not be able to rule over them." Therefore they wanted to kill the Indian culture. And they did it. Śyāmasundara: Dr. Radhakrishnan? Prabhupāda: Yes, that such a fool, you see. Śyāmasundara: Made President, wasn't he? Prabhupāda: They regularly maintained this, I mean to say, standard that, "Anything Indian is, it is primitive, it is useless. Now we are becoming civilized, under our country." That impression was created. So they liked. Then you must drink. You must drink tea, you must drink wine, you must become, dress like European. Dhanañjaya: Refined. You must become refined. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: You must become refined, like an Englishman. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was in India. Anyone who becomes, imitate, a respectable Englishman, he's considered gentleman. Śyāmasundara: Imitate. Prabhupāda: Imitate. Others, Parsis—you know Parsis—they imitate cent percent. Śyāmasundara: Is there a white, whitish color. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are whitish color also. Devotee: (enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is a Dr. Sharma. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: A Dr. Sharma Prabhupāda: He's here? Mr. Arnold: Or Shah? Devotee: I'm not sure. Śyāmasundara: Who is he? Mr. Arnold: There were . . . I don't know a Dr. Sharma, but there were two Doctors. Devotee: Not Dr. Sharma, Mr. Sharma. Mr. Arnold: Mr. Sharma, ah. Śyāmasundara: Probably Mrs. Sharma's . . . you know Carl Road? Anyway. Mr. Arnold: We have one hundred and eight people, so I don't know them all personally. Śyāmasundara: Mr. Arnold has started a guild, Hare Kṛṣṇa Guild? *Dhanañjaya: Guild of the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple. I sent you a lotus badge. Prabhupāda: Oh, I think that you sent me one. Śyāmasundara: Yes, he sent one badge for how much, they charge? One pound? Dhanañjaya: At least one pound. Śyāmasundara: So we're building up many supporters. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Śyāmasundara: They don't pay much, but at least they're . . . Prabhupāda: So you are distributing among Indians or Englishmen? Dhanañjaya: Everyone. Mr. Arnold: Everyone. Dhanañjaya: Anyone who wants to. Mr. Arnold: The, the main idea, my lord, is so that we can find out exactly what they can do. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good idea. Mr. Arnold: Whether they can paint windows, or wash floors, or then consequently when we do get a very nice little temple. Prabhupāda: And our real point was that, how the, in the beginning, the Indians treated the Englishmen. The Lord Clive, he wanted some money. So he approached that Sukhamaya Raya, he was very rich man, banker. So his secretary or his doorman informed—he was upstairs—that "Some Englishman has come to see you." "Oh, Englishman? Don't allow him to enter the house." (laughter) "Let him sit down on the door. I am coming. I am coming. Don't bring him here." That was the position. So he came. He came down. He was very rich man. This Lord Clive wanted to go and see him. He said his doorman, "Don't allow him to enter the door." (laughs) "Let him sit down on the door; I am coming." So he came. So he introduced, that "I am Clive." At that time he might not have been Lord Clive, anyway. "Yes, yes. I have heard your name." He was speaking in Bengali, interpreted. "So what do you want?" "Now, we want some money. We shall return you very soon with interest." So he said: "Yes, I'll give you money. I know you are good man." Because at that time people were not very much satisfied with the rulings of Siraj Daula. So this Siraj Daula was killed by Clive's intrigue. So some of the people, they liked. Dhanañjaya: So he wasn't a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He wasn't Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Who? Dhanañjaya: This Siraj Daula Prabhupāda: Siraj Daula was a Muhammadan. Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? *Prabhupāda: Yes. His only fault . . . he was a good governor, a good ruler, but these Muhammadans are very much woman*-hunter. As soon as there is some beautiful woman, "Bring him . . . bring her." This was going on. So this Sukhamaya Raya advanced money to Lord Clive, and when everything was settled up, he was given vast land and the title "king." Śyāmasundara: The banker? Prabhupāda: Huh? The banker, yes. (laughter) Similarly, Raja Nava Kumar, he was a clerk of Clive, but he helped, so he was also given land and the title "king." Raja Nava Kumar Raya. There is Sovabazar family. So in this way the Britishers created the Zamindars, land . . . land . . . landholders. Śyāmasundara: Oh, they created them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no . . . Prabhupāda: Lord Cornwallis. Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no kings or small . . . Prabhupāda: No, there were kings . . . (break) . . . that is Lord Curzon's advice, that India, send one of the Royal Family member and become King here. Dhanañjaya: That didn't happen though. Prabhupāda: Oh, no. This Parliament interfered. They wanted to bring all money from us. If the Britishers would have ruled, that rule, their administration was very much appreciated, but later on it become exploitation. If the King of England would have ruled the other parts of the world as King, for the benefit of the local people, the British Empire would have continued for long. That was their mistake. It was very nice program, the British Empire. They had very good administration; that everyone admits. But later on the administration became too expert for English people. If they had ruled over the area for the benefit of the people . . . that is the King's duty. As King, as it is Vedic principle, King should give protection to the citizens, make them religious, make them upright. That is King's duty, not that simply collect tax and think that "This property's mine," and spend it as he likes. Of course, in England also, because when the King was doing like that, that Cromwell introduced this parliamentary system. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the King James, he was . . . Mr. Arnold: Executed. Prabhupāda: Executed. Now it is by simply name, "King," it has power. His Majesty, Her Majesty has no power. So this British Empire was very nicely planned, and it was desire of God, but later on they make this policy, exploitation; therefore it failed. That is my opinion. Śyāmasundara: The only, the only thing I could see that they did good is that they gave English, so that you could come to us in the West—so Your Divine Grace could come here and give us Vaiṣṇavism, Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Prabhupāda: So, that was possible even at that time. But they would not accept. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: When India was dependent, they would not accept anything from India; then their prestige is gone. Here, as I told you, when my Godbrother came, Lord Wellington, his wife, Lady Wellington . . . Lord Wellington, he was Viceroy. So there was some introduction later. So Lady Wellington challenged our Godbrother, "Swamījī, your men come here. We educate them, give some title, and they go to India, become very big man, important man. So what you have got to teach us?" She challenged him like that. They are not prepared to take anything Indian, or give any importance. Dhanañjaya: They're thinking you're second or third class. Prabhupāda: No. They knew they're first class, but they would not allow to become first class. Otherwise their prestige is gone. They were teaching that, "Anything, whatever you've got, that is all third class. Take from us. That is first class." This was the impression. Śyāmasundara: Indians are so mild mannered and gentle that they didn't resist. Prabhupāda: No. There is another illusion. If you become supporter of the British rule, you get profit. The British say, "We'll give you land—your land," (laughter) "give you title." So the British businessman, he'll make him chief salesman. (laughter) Chief salesman means any way, they will sell their goods. The chiefs are just like Motilal Sil, he was chief salesman of seven British business houses, but they cannot approach the local customers, they require the help of a broker. But the broker thinks, "Oh, these Englishmen has made me big man." Śyāmasundara: Like Sir Padampat Singhania? He got "Sir" title from the British. Prabhupāda: Yes, that he got because he contributed large sum of money during war fund. So in the commission, not only he, many rich men, got this "Sir" title, because they contributed enough money for prosecuting this war affair. Devotee: Was the Indian government in agreement with this? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The Indian government, did they agree with this? All this? Prabhupāda: The Indian government is British government at that time. Śyāmasundara: There wasn't any Indian government. Prabhupāda: The India was forced to join the war, by British, British government. Śyāmasundara: Pakistan . . . Prabhupāda: And then they utilized Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldier. The India had no hand. And this Mr. Singhania, he supported this, so he was made Lord. So these are politics. Śyāmasundara: Actually, I think that even the word "Sir" comes from Śrī, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The word "Sir", English word "Sir," doesn't that come from Śrī, Sanskrit Śrī? Prabhupāda: Now, that I do not know. "Sir" means gentleman. "Sir" means knight. Mr. Arnold: "Sir" is a knight. Monsieur. It comes from French. Śyāmasundara: I thought it came from Sanskrit, Śrī. Mr. Arnold: It could possibly come from . . . but "Sir" was being used in the West for centuries. Prabhupāda: So where is that Sharma? Devotee: Oh, they went down to ārati . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but the original inhabitants of Britain came from India. Mr. Arnold: Well, this is a . . . (laughs) But, uh, there's two, there's two . . . Śyāmasundara: Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The original inhabitants of Europe and Britain came from India? Aryan, Aryan tribes? Prabhupāda: No, no. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: No. Originally Aryan came from India. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is in Greece, Turkey, and then gradually I think . . . Śyāmasundara: Hun? Prabhupāda: . . . Romans came to England. Śyāmasundara: But there was Huns. Before that there was Huns, and you mentioned others from *Bhāgavatam* , Pulinda, Huns, Mongols, Saxons and . . . Prabhupāda: So Europe, mixed up. Not pure Aryans. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but they, they came from that part, didn't they, India, the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Huns were in this side, European side. Dhanañjaya: We were also . . . *Prabhupāda: North, north of Russia, still they're Huns. Kirāta-hūṇāndhr . Kirāta means the Africans. So the Europeans, originally Indian kṣatriyas , some of them came to this side, being afraid of being killed by Paraśurāma. Kṣatriya-rudhira-maye jagad-apagata-pāpaṁ (Śrī Daśāvatāra-stotra 6). He was, twenty*-one times killed all the kṣatriyas . *Haṁsadūta: What does that mean, twenty*-one times? You mean they took birth again, and then He . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. Twenty*-one times there's seven years war. *Haṁsadūta: Seven . . . twenty*-one wars. Campaigns. Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time some of them fled from, and settled up here. *Śyāmasundara: Because they call our English language an Indo*-Aryan language. That means they find many of the roots in Sanskrit words. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit, the Professor Rowe, he was Professor in Sanskrit, in Presidency College. He has his grammar, Rowe and Wade. We read that grammar. In that grammar he has written that, "Sanskrit is the mother of all languages." He has written. And your European language, from Latin, Latin is also originated from Sanskrit. Just like matri sabdhā , this is Sanskrit. Like Latin mater. Dhanañjaya: Mother. Prabhupāda: Pitri sabdhā . Dhanañjaya: Father. Prabhupāda: Father. Pitā . Dhanañjaya: Pata . Prabhupāda: Pata . Like that. Dhanañjaya: Pata , patri . Prabhupāda: The original "father" and "mother," that is derived from Sanskrit. Śyāmasundara: And in the Teutonic languages also, German languages, like atma means to breath, still. Atma , "to breath." Prabhupāda: And there is one book, Aquarian Gospel? There it is mentioned that Christo, this is a Greek word. But krista is a perverted representation of Kṛṣṇa. In India also, still, we call, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we call Krista , still. My younger brother's name was Kṛṣṇa, so we we were, we were calling him by the name Krista . " Krista! " Not Krista —" Kesta ." And from this word krista , the Christ has come. So this Christian religion has got a link with Kṛṣṇa. And Jesus Christ went to India. He remained there for twelve years. That Aquarian Gospel writes; I do not know. You have read that book? Mr. Arnold: Not at all. Prabhupāda: He resided in Jagannātha temple. Haṁsadūta: I've read it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I read that book. Prabhupāda: You have read it, that's it. But there was some misunderstanding; therefore left Jagannātha temple. He went to Buddhist temple in Katmandu. So at that time he received one letter, his father and mother died, when he was staying in India. So Jesus Christ remained for a considerable years in India. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. There's a whole period of his life, where there's nothing known . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . about him, about his movements. Prabhupāda: Then he started his preaching here. And in the beginning of his life, he was horrified when the Jews were killing birds in the Synagogue. He was horrified. So how Jesus Christ will allow animal killing? And therefore he said: "Thou shalt not kill." From his life, from his other information, he was not for killing. He was not for killing. Mr. Arnold: He did . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: . . . on two occasions cause the death of fish, my lord. Prabhupāda: One thing is, might have done when there was no other means of eating. This is one point, so far I study. Another thing is that what was the purpose, or even there is no purpose, he was so powerful, he could do that. But we should follow the instruction of Jesus Christ, we should not imitate him. Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether that word has been translated from the original language properly. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether our word "fish" is the proper translation for that word in the original. Prabhupāda: Many . . . but in the common men, it is clearly said: "Thou shalt not kill. That is, that you have to accept. That even Jesus Christ ate some fish or some . . . that maybe some special circumstances. Mr. Arnold: The breaking of the bread; the feeding of the five thousand—two small loaves, fishes, certain fishes. Dhanañjaya: Five loaves and two fishes. Śyāmasundara: I read a book put out by the Vegetarian Society that said that, that word was translated from the Greek copy of the Aramaic, and in the Greek, that word means a loaf of bread made of some kind of seaweed that grows in Galilee, a kind of sea . . . Prabhupāda: That may be interpretation. But without interpretation, if you have to accept the Ten Commandments, how you can kill? There is no such chance of killing. And other statement that he gave, that the animals are given under the . . . Śyāmasundara: Dominion. *Prabhupāda: . . . dominion of man. That does not mean they are meant for killing. Just like Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa's foster father, he was maintaining 900,000 cows, giving protection. And it is the duty of the vaiśya community, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). There are three different types of occupation: agriculture, cow protection and trade. That is called vaiśya . So, giving the animals under the human being means protection, not for killing. Suppose if you give . . . you give your child to some gentleman, that "I am going—you take care of this child," it does not mean that the child has to be killed. So I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. I don't. *Haṁsadūta: In the very, very first pages of the Bible it says when Lord created the Earth and everything, and then He says: "The seed*-bearing plants of the earth shall be your meat, and strictly forbidden to eat other things." It says very clearly what they shall eat. *Prabhupāda: Besides that, Lord Jesus Christ says that you should . . . well*-behaved with your neighbor, what is that? Mr. Arnold: "One should love thy neighbor as thyself." Prabhupāda: Thyself? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, in broader sense now, there are many animals, they're also our neighbor, the domestic animals. So Lord Jesus Christ cannot say that your human being are neighbors, they are not your neighbors. And he was horrified when animals and birds are being killed in the Jews' Synagogue. That is . . . so one who is horrified for killing, and he specifically accepted, "Thou shalt not kill." I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. *Mr. Arnold: But it's such a long*-accepted practice now, my lord. Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. You are practiced to something; that is different thing. But when you talk of Christian religion, I don't think killing can be allowed. And besides that, any religion, killing is barbarian. Killing is barbarian. When you talk of religion, there cannot be any killing. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come." Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come." Prabhupāda: Yes. So far Muhammadan religion is concerned, that is also killing restricted, and they had no other ways. It is desert. Devotee: But that's a very . . . *Prabhupāda: Another thing, even killing of animal is required for sacrifice, the Vedic religion also allow—but not cow. These goats, they are allowed. The meat*-eater, under restriction, they can eat goats. But not the higher caste. The Brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśyas , they would not. The lowest class, the śūdras, or lower than that, they used to kill. But not cows, because cow is very important animal. Dhanañjaya: I remember once also . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: . . . on a walk in Mr. John Lennon's estate, you were speaking about how when the old cows and old bulls die, then the mucis, the cobblers, after taking off their skin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: . . . then they could take. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: But not before. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Dhanañjaya: Not before. Prabhupāda: No, it is not very wise to kill cow. But if you want cow's skin, there is guarantee. Anyone will die; you get the skin. And if you want to eat, then at the time when it dies, you can eat. So why you should kill? Killing means economic loss. The cows, while living, is giving the nicest food—milk. And so long you get nice milk, you can prepare so many nutritious foodstuff, from cow's milk. Haṁsadūta: Fertilizer you can get, too. *Prabhupāda: Fertilizer. Cow dung. Cow's urine is also so, I mean, antiseptic. So the meat*-eaters may, if they're insisting. First, first of all, nobody should eat meat. All right, if there is a class of men, they want eating meat, but they can eat. Just like they're eating hogs, or goats. Haṁsadūta: Hunting for things. *Prabhupāda: Hunting other animals. But cow especially must be protected, for society's good. Must be protected—from gratitude. We are drinking milk of cow. How we can kill our mother? From all considerations, especially cow protection must be there. That is the duty of the vaiśyas , kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ . Cow protection is especially mentioned. And the cow blood, the milk is nothing but blood. So you get more vitamin value by drinking milk than eating, drinking, cow blood. From all points of view, cow protection must be there. That is human civilization. From all points of view. Śyāmasundara: And they eat garbage. They don't eat . . . it's not that they're going to eat very much. They eat garbage or any grass. Prabhupāda: No, that is our . . . because of want of food. They should be given nice food. One nice food. Mr. Arnold: Grass. Prabhupāda: You take the paddies of the wheat, and you give him the grass. You take the pulp of the fruit, and you give the skin. You take the plantain, banana, the inside pulp, and you give him the skin. So there is always share, and the cow, taking the rejected portion, is supplying you milk. You cannot avoid milk, but on account of this sinful activity, milk supplies will be stopped. There will be no more milk. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . Śyāmasundara: If they have no mercy for the cow, what to speak of other humans, now they're killing the . . . Prabhupāda: They have no mercy. There is no question of mercy. And they cannot be devotion also, animal killers. According to our conception, every living entity is part and parcel of God. So suppose God . . . in Christian religion also it is accepted, "father." So the father has got so many children. Some of them are animals, some of them are trees, some of them are human beings, some of them are insects, some of them . . . like that—8,400,000 species. *Kṛṣṇa claims sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya : "In all species of life, as many forms are there," sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4). Mūrtayaḥ means "forms." In all species of life. He does not say simply human form—all forms. And Kṛṣṇa's picture, you see, is . . . as loving . . . where is that picture you showed me? Haṁsadūta: He's always with the cow. Prabhupāda: Ah, He is embracing. Haṁsadūta: The cow in the back Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: I have one also. Prabhupāda: So He has personally taught us how to treat with cow. He began a cowherds boy, and His business was go early in the morning to take care of the cows and go in the forest. Dhanañjaya: And also, of course, when He was, when He was in danger after, after killing Pūtanā, then all the women came, bathed with urine . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, the ladies, Yaśodā and other ladies took Him to the cow dung, and cow's tail, like that, so that inauspicity may go. So cow has been given very importance position. And practically we see, we are drinking cow's milk still. Still also many dairy farms are going on. So cow killing in human society cannot be supported. Cannot be supported. In . . . during Emperor Akbar's time, one poet wrote a poetry presenting to the emperor about the cow's appealing that, "I am doing this, I am doing this, I am doing this. I am simply eating grass, and I don't encroach upon your foodstuff, but still I give you so nice food that your children lives on this, and when I die, I give my skin, I give my hoof. I am so serviceable. I am willing to serve you, and still you are killing me." The substance of the poetry is there, and when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped cow killing: "No. No more cow killing." Haṁsadūta: Which king was that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Akbar. The first Mogul emperor. He simply presented this poetry, had the cow appealing that, "I am giving so much service—not only living time, even after my death. Still you are killing me. And you call yourself civilized." So when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped. In Afghanistan still, there is no cow killing. Afghanistan. Śyāmasundara: That's a Muhammadan country, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And long ago I was coming from Kashmir, one Muhammadan gentlemen was my fellow passenger, so when he called for that restaurant man, so he was whispering, "Don't . . . is it cow's flesh? "Well, no, no, no, it is not." So there are many Muhammadans, they won't touch cow's flesh. Still, in India. There are many vegetarian also. Śyāmasundara: Many signs in the restaurants, "No beef." Prabhupāda: Yes. So for civilized society, cow killing must be stopped. It is a great sin. From all points of view—from economic point of view, from religious point of view, from social point of view. Dhanañjaya: That's a big task. Śyāmasundara: Everybody thinks that there's no, we have no reason to not kill cows, that we're simply sentimental, the Indians or the Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Sentiment, yes. Do you think this sentiment is bad? You are drinking milk, and cow is accepted as mother. Is this sentiment? Is it sentiment? You drink one's milk, and you consider that animal as ordinary animal. How you are civilized? According to Vedic civilization, even, just like Kṛṣṇa, because He drank the milk of Pūtanā, He took him as mother, although she came to poison Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa took the bright side that, "Whatever he" (laughter) "she, she might have done, I have sucked her breast. Oh, she has become My mother. She should get the exact position like My mother." This is sentiment. *Haṁsadūta: You know one of their arguments is that if we don't kill the cow, there'll be over*-population. They say. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: Yes, they say about the cows that if we did not have slaughterhouses to kill these cows, there would be so many cows they would take up everything. This, this is the kind of argument. Really. I'm serious. They say. Dhanañjaya: That's demonic thinking. Prabhupāda: The rascals, they do not understand they will be oversupplied of milk, he will be happy. (laughing) Śyāmasundara: Everything will be adjusted. Prabhupāda: You'll get more rasgullās . (laughter) Ghee. Dhanañjaya: Cream. Prabhupāda: Cream, so many things. Śyāmasundara: They're actually bred anyway, the cows. Artificial insemination is what makes so many cows. Our cows at New Vrindavan are born from artificial insemination. They take the sperm . . . Prabhupāda: They, they want for food. They want to kill. Haṁsadūta: The people are not . . . they don't . . . they don't even like milk, these people, at least in Germany. They give the milk to the hogs in Germany. They give. But we sometimes go to a farm, you know, and they say: "Oh, and we have just given all the milk to the hogs." Mr. Arnold: They take the cream off first. Haṁsadūta: They said: "We ourselves, we don't, we hardly ever drink milk. We take a little for our coffee, for the cream, but the rest we give to the hog, or we sell to the dairy." Śyāmasundara: They make it into cheese that tastes like meat, smells like meat. Make it into cheese. Haṁsadūta: Most people don't drink too much milk. The younger children, the children drink the milk, but once they get past sixteen years old, they don't take much milk anymore. Prabhupāda: That means beginning of life is from milk. If there was no milk, how your children would live? Śyāmasundara: Even in Russia the babies were drinking milk. Prabhupāda: So still you're killing. No. There is no reason for cow killing. Śyāmasundara: In fact, a cow that eats grass, it only bites it off—it doesn't pull the roots. The grass grows back, and it's harmless. But the goats, they pull the grass up by the root. No grass can grow there anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: So actually in North Africa, it used to be very verdant, very fertile land, and from so many thousands of years of grazing goats—I read an article in a science magazine—it's depleted the soil. No grass grows there now. It's desert, desert country mostly. The Muhammadans introduced goats, and those goats have eaten all the grass. It won't grow back. Dhanañjaya: But before them there were cows, because that's when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was traveling in his kingdom, and Kali personified was . . . Śyāmasundara: North Africa? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, originally it was very fertile, even in Roman times. Carthaginian. Prabhupāda: Cow dung is a fertilization. Any, any stool is fertilizer. So passing stool in the field, that is, stool is utilized for some purpose. Now in the cities, we are passing so much stool, it is being spoiled. (laughter) No, there was scientific estimation, that we are losing so many, so much quantity of fat and hypophosphite, and this, like that. Mr. Arnold: Did you see the article today in the paper, my lord, that uh . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: . . . one borough council was giving farmers, and all the various people, free fertilizers that was in fact, was made from the human's excreta, and the scientists were finding that there was vast deposits of mercury and lead. In fact it was killing the land, and it was being taken from humans. Prabhupāda: In stool? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: No. In Germany they attempted to extract fat from stool, and they did it. They collected all stool, and by chemical process extracted fat from it. And from practical experience stool is very substantial food, vitamin A, B, C, D. (laughter) You see the hogs, they eat, they become very quickly fat. (laughter) Because human being, eating all valuable foodstuff, they cannot digest—so that is passing into stool. So all the feed values are there. So better the scientist make some research. And they made, German scientist, and they extracted fat from stool. I do not know if they're still doing. (laughter) You know, you know better. Haṁsadūta: I don't know about it. Mr. Arnold: Then the scientists, the German scientists anyway, have made very fine meat from wood. Hauptsfleisch they called it. Śyāmasundara: When was this? Mr. Arnold: They were selling this during the war, in tins. Śyāmasundara: Out of wood? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: The Germans? Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then why not take vegetable? Mr. Arnold: Yes, but, you know the American Spam stuff? Well, when we were in the army, of course, we got cut off, you know, and we was eating anything. Prabhupāda: So, that Mr. Sharma can come. Let him come in. Yes. He wanted to see me. Mr. Arnold: Well, can I be excused, my lord, for a little while? Go and see my wife? She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: Can I be excused? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: She can come up here. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: Later. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let her come. Oh, you can, you can go, bring her. (to new guest) You sit down. He is going, he is going. Mr. Arnold: Well, I'd like change, my lord, too, because I've out since . . . Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Dhanañjaya: Should I bring his wife? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: He's just coming. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . be introduced to the human society. They will be saved. Dhanañjaya: There's, there's some very nice land still in England that could be used for, for a nice āśrama , country āśrama . There's some very nice land still. In Devon, in the West Country of England, in Wales. Scotland also. Prabhupāda: When people understand that we are doing something very important, they will cooperate. It is our duty to convince them. Śyāmasundara: Intelligent men like Mr. Arnold are many. They can understand through philosophy, if we just give it. Prabhupāda: Mr. Arnold can preach amongst . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: . . . gentlemen*-class men. Śyāmasundara: When he becomes more and more . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . convinced. He's a wonderful man. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śyāmasundara: Very logical, and cool*-headed. Prabhupāda: (people enter and Prabhupada greets) Yes? Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on? Prabhupāda: What is that? You should come. Śyāmasundara: Fire, do you want the fire on? Prabhupāda: I don't want. Mandir me bhid bohot hota hai. Jagah nahi hai. To ek jagah ka bandobast kijiye, ap log. Rent hoye aur jo kuch hoye. Ek to accha . . . (The temple is very crowded. There is no space. Arrange some place, by rent or by any means.) Guest: Ha, bhid bohot hai. Jagah kam hai. Jagah ka abhi . . . ji ha. (Yes very crowded. Space is alot less. Regarding some place . . . all right.) Prabhupāda: We want a big hall. Guest: Abhi abhi bat chal raha tha, (We have been holding discussions for some time,) and I have to buy another hall, big place in Kingsway, for few months back. Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. (Come come.) Come on. Guest: Few months back. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Guest: But I think they were wanting much more money. We could not afford to pay that much. Prabhupāda: Money ka kya abhab hai? Ap log nahi de sakte? Itna Hindi, itna Indian . . . (Is there any scarcity of money? Can't you people give money? So many Hindus, so many Indians . . .) Guest: Ha, bohot. Yehi to bat hai abhi. (Yes alot. This is the main thing.) Actually I started coming only few months back. Prabhupāda: (Mrs. Arnold enters) How are you? Mrs. Arnold: Very well, thank you. Very nice. Prabhupāda: To iska bandobast kijiye. Itna bada, bhari kam ho raha hai. Hindu log sab so rahe hai. To isiliye to patan ho gaya. (Then make arrangements for this. Such a huge amount of work going on. All the Hindus are sleeping. That's why there was a downfall.) Guest: Ji ha. Bilkul. Ji bilkul thik kahe. Apki bat thik hai ki abhi Hindu log aur paisa kitna kharch kar le lekin idhar abhi itna dhyan nahi dete. Agar hum ikatthe hokar . . . yehi bat thik hai. (Yes. Absolutely. Whatever you say is right. Your opinion is right, that no matter how much money Hindus spend, they do not give attention to this. If we are united . . . you are right.) Prabhupāda: Wo ek Pakistan nikal gaya uske liye ro raha hai . . . (One Pakistan has left and they are crying) and we can make the whole world Hindustan. Guest: Ji hai. Thik he (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Inka thoda dimag me dijiye na. (Insert the idea in their minds.) Guest: Thik he. (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Thoda sa Pakistan nikal gaya to janma bhar ro rahe hai. (Only Pakistan has separated and they are crying throughout their life.) Guest: Ji ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: And why don't you take this opportunity to make the whole world Hindustan? Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Thoda samajh lijiye. (Please understand it.) I'm doing that. Guest: Bilkul thik bat hai apki. (What you are saying is absolutely right.) *Prabhupāda: I'm claiming the whole world is Bhārata*-varṣa . Last night's . . . you were present last night? Guest: Actually, I'm staying over thirty miles from this place. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I told that, that whole world was Bhārata, Bhārata*-varṣa . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You remember? Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So I'm claiming the whole world Bhārata*-varṣa , and whole world Vedic culture. Guest: Thik he. (Okay.) Prabhupāda: And whole world's God is one—Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: So why don't you help us? Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know why the Hindus, they are not, they are not coming, in my cooperation. They are so much downtrodden. Guest: That's right. Wo to itna hai ki apne log apna hi sanskriti ko bhul gaye hai aur agar dusre ka . . . (They are so fallen that our people have forgotten their own culture and if others . . .) Prabhupāda: Iska mane jahannum me gaya. (That means they have gone to hell.) Guest: Ji ha aur dusre log jo inko apnakar wo wahi prachar kar rahe hai, un pe bhi apne log kehte hai ye to aise hi hai. (Yes, other people are adopting this and preaching but our own people consider them useless.) *Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, kaun prachar karega? Kaun hai prachar karne wala? (No, no, who is going to preach? Who is there to preach?) I can challenge all these rascals. They come to earn some money. These so*-called Bhāgavata reader, and these, and Swami, and . . . they come to earn some money. They do not want that this culture should be spread, neither they know how to spread it. Guest: Yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda samjhiye. (You people please try to understand.) I've used some strong word, but it is with great regret. That so many Indians there are, they are not coming to my cooperation. Guest: That's right. Abhi age se kuch, age se preaching . . . matlab ki ho raha hai jagriti lekin itni nahi jitni honi chahiye. (Nowadays, there is relatively more preaching . . . I mean they are awakening but not as much as it should be.) Not so much as we should. Prabhupāda: That we have congested. We want immediately. We cannot expect monetary help from others. Guest: Naturally. Prabhupāda: You see. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: But they are still giving us so much help, these European boys and American boys. Guest: Yeah, they are doing a lot more. Prabhupāda: Not a single Indian coming. Guest: Yeah. That I do realize, because I started coming this temple about six months back. So I went through some of the literature which I got from Oxford Street in the beginning, before, when I came from India. Prabhupāda: That is my plight, you see. Guest: And I was . . . Prabhupāda: I don't get any Indian, Hindu cooperation, in such a big movement. Guest: So I thought that we Indians who should have much more, sacrifice much more devotion, much more donation to this city and this . . . Prabhupāda: Now immediately we require a big place. Guest: Yeah. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And so, so many Indians, rich Indians are there; they are not coming forward. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: To ap log yadi cooperation karke kuch bandobast kare to makan to bohot mil jayega. Bohot mil jayega. (If you people cooperate and try to manage something, then we will find many buildings. We will find many.) How many Indians are here in London? Dhanañjaya: Around 200,000. Guest: How much? Prabhupāda: 200,000. If they, if contribute one pound each. Guest: One pound each will be with one . . . Prabhupāda: Immediately we can purchase a nice place. Guest (2): Today, the United Kingdom is about ten thousand, uh, ten lakhs . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): Ten lakhs . Guest: Ten million. Dhanañjaya: One million. Guest (2): One million, that means ten lakhs of people living here . . . Prabhupāda: So we can immediately raise ten lakhs . Guest (2): In London there are only about two lakhs now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): In London there are two lakhs. In whole of the United Kingdom . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Isko ap log sab . . . hum to buddha ho gaya, hum kya kar sakte hai? Hum to introduce kiya. (So you people . . . I am an old man, what can I do? I have introduced it.) Guest: Apne bohot kiya. Waise ye maine dekha. (You have done a lot. I have seen.) We went to all the temples of the world and . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (3): The thing is a great achievement. Guest: In this century, I would say . . . Prabhupāda: They . . . you simply speak on your lips but don't come forward to help me. Guest: Hm. That's right. Prabhupāda: It is a great achievement, undoubtedly. Whole world will accept. That's a fact. Guest: Abhi maine apka darshan nahi kiya tha lekin wo literature apka . . . (I had not got your darshan until now but your literature . . .) I have been going through. Abhi pata kiya, abhi aya hua hu. (I came to know just now, so I have come here.) *Prabhupāda: Itna kitab diya humne, itna service kiya . . . (So many books I have given, so much service I have done) . . . but I don't want to become proud. It is my duty I have done. But you should know it. You should help me. Neither the government is helping, neither the Indian people is helping, and neither the foreign . . . Subhas Bose, he raised fund and established one INA fleet. But I cannot do that. Why this non*-cooperation? I do not know what I have done. Ap log thoda sochiye. (Please think about it.) Why this non-cooperation spirit? *Guest: Oh, nahi (no), I would say not non*-cooperation, it is ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes, I don't get their cooperation. Guest: It's ignorance, that they . . . Prabhupāda: But ignorance—that, that it is foolishness. Guest: The foolishness I would say. Prabhupāda: It's not ignorance. It is foolishness. Itna zarurat hai . . . (It's an urgent need) . . . immediately for a nice place. And so many English boys are coming. I can keep thousands of them . . . Guest: Thousands of . . . Prabhupāda: . . . if I get a proper place. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Isko ap log thoda gaur kijiye. Thoda bandobast kijiye. (You people please take it seriously. Make some arrangements.) Guest: When Keśava from USA—he came here about two months back . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Guest: Keśavananda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He's my disciple, Keśava. Guest: 455 Valencia, San Francisco. And at that time they went to have some place, but they said we could not have money, that's what the . . . Prabhupāda: The money, you can, you can contribute. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I came in America with seven dollars only. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Nobody gave me money. Neither government, neither big men. Guest: No, that I know. It was all you alone, personally and all great continuous perseverance. Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda sympathetic ho karke movement ko badhaiye. (You people, please be sympathetic and try to increase this movement.) (break) (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1971, London Mr. Arnold: . . . takes the name of the nearest town. Prabhupāda: So where is that town, eh? Mr. Arnold: Near the island of Zetland. Devotees: In the Orkneys. Prabhupāda: Zetland. Devotees: In the Orkneys. Prabhupāda: But, he was, he was known as Lord Ronaldsay when he was Governor, in Bengal. And later on, when he was seen one of, by one of my Godbrother, he came about thirty years ago, 1935, at that time he was known as Marquis of Zetland. So, the same person, perhaps he was known in India as Lord Zetland, because India, the governors and the viceroys, they're mostly Lords. They are not accustomed to know marquis or this. Mr. Arnold: Marquis is a, is a higher title. Prabhupāda: (aside) Keep it there, I shall . . . keep it. So this Lord Ronaldsay, he was invited by our principal, because he also happened to be Scotsman. So I was at that time a boy. So he's elderly. At least at that time he was our father's age. He's still alive? No. Mr. Arnold: The older Lord Zetland, m'lord? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: No, I don't think so. No. I think he died, and consequently Lord Ronaldsay, and his son, take on the title of Marquis of Zetland. Prabhupāda: He immediately inquired, "How many you have philosophical students?" So our principal replied that this is I.A., I.A. class. So I.A. means Intermediate Art. Devotee: There's a phone call for Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Oh, it's Mr. Ambuja. Prabhupāda: So you can call him to come here. We can talk. So our principal said that this is I.A. class; they haven't got philosophy, but most of them have got logic, preliminary philosophy. So he was interested also. "All right, how many you have taken, logic?" So I was also student (laughing) of logic. In this way we were introduced. But I know, he was very nice gentleman, and fond of Indian philosophy and culture. He studied them. And the Gandhi, during Gandhi's movement, there was a great leader in Calcutta, Sealdah, he was a big lawyer. So government ordered that he should be arrested. So before arresting, Lord Ronaldsay called him at his house, that "It will be very much painful for me to arrest you. If you kindly give up this movement." So he said, "No, you can arrest me. I cannot give up." So later on he was arrested. But before arresting, he called him at his (laughs) . . . A very nice gentleman, but government ordered, what can he do? Another governor, he was Indian. He was the first Indian governor, Lord Sinha. So when he was requested to arrest Gandhi, he immediately resigned: "So you are asking me to arrest? Why not ask some English governor to arrest him?" So he resigned. Mr. Arnold: I think there's still two Indians . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Mr. Arnold: . . . who sit in the House of Lords. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indians? Dhanañjaya: Two Indians, MPs. Mr. Arnold: No, they're titled Lords; they're peers. They sit in the House of Lords. Prabhupāda: Maybe son of Lord Sinha. Mr. Arnold: Maybe. I wouldn't know. Prabhupāda: Because this is hereditary title. Mr. Arnold: Yes, m'lord. Prabhupāda: They deposit some money to the government. Dhanañjaya: Someone was saying that the head of the Liberal . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhanañjaya: The head of the Liberal department was an Indian. Prabhupāda: He may be domiciled here. There are many Indians domiciled. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, I don't think anyone with the title "Lord" in India, they can become member of the Parliament. Because . . . because India is not now . . . but he may be Commonwealth. But is it, is there any rule that Commonwealth member can become Parliament member? Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes, there's various people sit in the House of Lords, m'lord, who are not British at all. We've got Australians, New Zealanders. Prabhupāda: But Australia is in, now in, still in touch with England. The Australians, in the stand, the Queen's picture is there. Mr. Arnold: Yes, oh, yes, but even so, the, their . . . Prabhupāda: Canadian, they're in touch. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But India, now, at the present moment, it is simply in name Commonwealth member. Actually, in the matters of governing, there is no . . . Mr. Arnold: No, but these people have received their titles for service to the British Empire in the past. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: And of course it's a hereditary title. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mr. Arnold: So naturally it hands down from father to son. Prabhupāda: Then how you can be elected? Mr. Arnold: You can't be elected to this house. It's quite impossible. Śyāmasundara: That was Mrs. Ambuja, and she said he'll be back about eight o'clock, and either they'll come directly over here, or they'll call first. Prabhupāda: Hm. Śyāmasundara: 6:30 now. Prabhupāda: So we can talk at that time. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, okay. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Saha. You know him? Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord. Prabhupāda: Heh? Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord. Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him. Prabhupāda: Oh, it's not . . .? Śyāmasundara: That was pure gold, practically. His, that jewelry is practically pure gold. Prabhupāda: He tested it? Śyāmasundara: They had it tested, yeah. Mr. Arnold: He's off. Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him. Mr. Arnold: He says one thing, and then a few days after he says something else which completely refutes what he said in the first place. Śyāmasundara: That's the problem. We have to really work with trustworthy people. Prabhupāda: No, that kind of man cannot help us. Śyāmasundara: No, we have to work with very trustworthy men, because it's too big, it's too important. Dhanañjaya: I think he's out for prestige. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He's out for prestige. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: Known in this country, m'lord, as a social climber. Śyāmasundara: Social climber. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hmm. So decide like that, then when he comes, I shall talk with him. Śyāmasundara: Ok. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: We try for that. Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, I could find out where George is. I have a few numbers I want to call to try and find him. Prabhupāda: George, being out of . . . station . . . don't count upon him. Śyāmasundara: No, but he'll be back soon. Prabhupāda: So, when he comes then we'll . . . that is different. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and if I know when he's coming, I'll be prepared to see him. *Dhanañjaya: We're going on this Bhāgavata*-saptāha . Should we still . . . should we still? *Prabhupāda: What? That Bhāgavata*-saptāha , that is attractive to the Indians, but the Indians have no cooperative feeling. Then what is the use? Śyāmasundara: Let us this week find out from different Indian men if they're going to be willing, and next Saturday I'll know for sure. Dhanañjaya: Yes, that's . . . Prabhupāda: And another thing is that the Indians, they're inclined to keep their Hindu element, hodgepodge—demigods, this, that . . . *Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our Deities they'll want to install Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa only, that's right. Dhanañjaya: Well. (laughs) *Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our temple, now they all want to install Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is out of sentiment. Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They thought that "If Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa is there, people will come." Dhanañjaya: Yes. I went, I went to visit them . . . Prabhupāda: Here is a different atmosphere. That they cannot create. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: That requires sincere devotion. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. I went to an installation ceremony. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Dhanañjaya: I went to an . . . I was invited with some other devotees to go to an installation ceremony in a temple in the East End of London, and they were installing Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities there, and at the same time they were having a marriage ceremony was going on. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: A marriage ceremony was going on, along with the installation ceremony. Prabhupāda: What is that ceremony? Merge? Śyāmasundara: Marriage. Prabhupāda: Marriage. Dhanañjaya: Right. Prabhupāda: This hodgepodge, they . . . Dhanañjaya: Yes, and there was this, this one, they had this one, like a professional priest was there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: And he was saying over again, oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi, and again and again he'd be saying the first line of Gāyatrī mantra, like he was chanting japa. And he would start to sing it, and he'd sing louder, and he was cavorting with this microphone, and it was all so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) So, how it is going on so that . . . Dhanañjaya: The same one that . . . who gave us these Deities. Śyāmasundara: Gave us these Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: So when Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa came here, they ordered more Deities from India, you see, and this was the installation ceremony for these . . . Prabhupāda: When it was held? Dhanañjaya: This was about two years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Two years ago. Śyāmasundara: It was right after we left, I think. Dhanañjaya: About two years ago. Prabhupāda: How it is going on now? Dhanañjaya: Oh, I don't know. I've never been back. Śyāmasundara: They don't have much. Devotee: It is simply sentimentality. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Sentimental. Prabhupāda: That's all. Who will go there? *Śyāmasundara: We went there for a durgā*-pūjā one night, too. I remember. They dance around the room. Prabhupāda: They take it as recreation. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: There is no philosophy. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: There is no seriousness. Then our is different. We are training people how to become real devotee. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is different. Dhanañjaya: Yes. They're also, they were garlanding the Deities with beads. They were giving Kṛṣṇa japa beads, (laughs) putting on. Prabhupāda: They're not guided. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like they are chanting Gāyatrī mantra loudly. That is another rascaldom. *Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Goyal is a self*-appointed guru . Prabhupāda: Oh! He, he wants to become a guru ? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is. Śyāmasundara: They have ambitions, to be guru . Dhanañjaya: And all these meetings, all these meetings I've been to, they're all saying: "We must remain Hindu. We must not forget our culture. We may be in England, but we are Hindus." Like this. "India, she is our real mother, not this England. India, she is our real mother. We must be thinking of India, and to become always thinking of Hindus." Śyāmasundara: How to, how to get rupees out of India. Prabhupāda: So therefore it is very difficult to get their cooperation. They're mentality is, they don't want to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. They want to remain Hindu. Hindu means hodgepodge, that's all. Hindu means hodgepodge. Dhanañjaya: And at the same time . . . Prabhupāda: Hindu means Śaṅkara philosophy. Śyāmasundara: Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: Yes, that God has no form, and you can imagine any form and worship for your material benefit. This is at the present moment. And we said that we are not Hindus. Hindu is a Muhammadan title, given. Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? (laughing) Śyāmasundara: That startles you. You didn't know that? Dhanañjaya: No! (laughing) *Prabhupāda: Hindu, there is no such word in the Vedic literature. You won't find this word in Bhāgavata , or Bhagavad*-gītā . The Muhammadans outside India, they used to call the sindhus , sindhu . There is a river, Sindhu river. From Sindhu to Hindu. They cannot speak "s," they call "ha." In this way it is a hodgepodge word, but it has come that Vedic followers as "hindus," but this word is not found in any authorized scripture, no. *Our, our system, culture is varṇāśrama*-dharma . That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā , cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ, varṇa ( BG 4.13). Varṇa means four sections: brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra . That is real Vedic culture. That Vedic culture can be all over the world. Why in India? We are trying for that, to get the Vedic culture, which is acceptable by everyone. It is meant for everyone. Śyāmasundara: So actually Śaṅkara introduced this five gods . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . system. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara had no universal idea, but still the Śaṅkarites, they won't accept outside brahmin caste. They won't allow sannyāsa unless he's a caste brahmin. It is still going on. That is their strict principle. Now it is dwindling—that is a different thing. But we Vaiṣṇavas, we, according to Bhagavad*-gītā , whatever one may be, if he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness he's eligible to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu Centre they, the only symbol they have is an oṁ , a big oṁ sign, and at the beginning they have a prayer to the oṁ sign. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist. Dhanañjaya: Yes. And their ārati ceremonies are terrible. Śyāmasundara: Their what? Dhanañjaya: Āratis are terrible. Prabhupāda: Terrible? Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Why is that? Dhanañjaya: " Jaya , oṁ jaya jagadīśa hare ." Prabhupāda: Oh, that, cry like anything. Dhanañjaya: Yes, and at the end they sing oṁśānti oṁśānti śānti śānti oṁ . Prabhupāda: So, that determination, "We want to remain Hindu," that is the basic principle of their defect. We cannot get any cooperation from them. Śyāmasundara: They're . . . those are mostly women. There's not many men at these ceremonies. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Mostly those are women also. Prabhupāda: Must be women, because these men, if they could not understand the philosophy, they are rascals. So now religious sentiment expressed by these women, that's all. That is, that is not our purpose. We want to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world. If we say that, "We are Hindus," we may be Hindus, but it is for everyone. Śyāmasundara: There's one or two Hindu leaders that are with us. Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, there are many enemies for me, because I am making brahmins . They do not like that. Śyāmasundara: Oh, then it won't be their property anymore . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . if it goes out of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, this, I think this Devānanda was bright. There are so many things, you see, I don't want to discuss publicly. So I am becoming popular on my own strength. Nobody is helping me. Śyāmasundara: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Rather you are helping me; from India I am not getting any help. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Neither by the government nor by the people. Śyāmasundara: So many big men we went to see. Even, even our own American government is helping us more than . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . the Indian government. Dhanañjaya: Also the BBC. I think BBC is like a father. British Broadcasting Corporation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: It's very, very helpful. Very much in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: BBC. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's an important organization? Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: Either that or they were . . . they're spying on us. Prabhupāda: No, any sane man, he will appreciate. Dhanañjaya: Yes, it's a very intelligent organization. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: BBC, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is government is coming here. Śyāmasundara: They acknowledged that they came to Nairobi to take films of you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, they did. Dhanañjaya: And these two radio programs yesterday. They're very important also. Prabhupāda: So, actually we're very important. What is your impression? Mr. Arnold: Of the, of the programs, my lord? Or . . . Prabhupāda: No, our, this mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mr. Arnold: I think it's, it's just the thing that is needed at the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is so. The, what United Nations could not do, we can do that—provided people agree to our terms. These four terms: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling. But that is very difficult. Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. (laughter) Prabhupāda: We put these terms, that is thunderbolt. That is thunderbolt. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Most young people think, "Well I've tried it . . ." Prabhupāda: The whole Western civilization is based on these principles, and we say break these four pillars (laughing), then come to me. That we don't get many followers. There is this condition. If that, like Maharishi, if I would have said: "Oh, no, you can do whatever you like." Śyāmasundara: Oh, you would have millions. Prabhupāda: "Simply pay me 35 dollars, and I give you special mantra." This bluff . . . Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . sell you a free pass into heaven. Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. Mr. Arnold: In the old, in the old days—indulgences. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. The Catholic Church, they, they used to sell passes into heaven, for you or your family—you pay so much, you get to go to heaven. Prabhupāda: Just see. The Muhammadans also they do. (laughter). The Aga Khan. He was doing that. If the man dies, so Aga Khan will give a draft. You know draft? Mr. Arnold: Yes, we know draft. Prabhupāda: So draft will be also within the coffin. So when he goes to hell or heaven . . . Śyāmasundara: He'll have some money. Prabhupāda: He'll get money. Draft. (laughter) And people are paying. You know this Aga Khan's business? Mr. Arnold: Aga Khan? Yes. Prabhupāda: Aga Khan. He was doing this. He was a guru of a section of Muhammadans, very rich section. Śyāmasundara: Nairobi they . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: In Nairobi they were . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So . . . and all the money he was spending in racehorse. Aga Khan had special horse. Devotee: He has become one of the richest men in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: I used to ski with him in Switzerland. *Prabhupāda: And all his officers are Hindus, in Bombay. He never trusted Muhammadans (laughter). Not only that, Aga Khan, even Muhammadan emperors that . . . their all important men were Hindus. Just like Rūpa*-Sanātana. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana. Huh? Devotee: They were Muhammadans. Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus. Devotee: Muhammadan government. Śyāmasundara: They were brahmins . Prabhupāda: No. They were brahmins , but because they accepted ministership from Nawab Hussein Shah, they were rejected from the strict brahmin community: "So you are now servant of a Muhammadan, your, you cannot call yourself a brahmin ." That's a fact. So they were rejected. Their names were also changed: Dhabir Khan or Dhabir Khās, and Sākara Mallik. *And they were mixing with big, big Muhammadan chiefs and landlords and, therefore about them Śrīnīvās Ācārya has written, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa*-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat (Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka 4): "He gave up the aristocratic society as very insignificant and preferred to become a mendicant." This is the picture. So. (aside) You can sit down. They were very big ministers, Caitanya Mahāprabhu made them Gosvāmī. *They were thrown by the Hindu society, or brahmin society, rejected them that, "They have become Muhammadan." And actually, just like in our younger days, in our father's time, if one should come to England for education, he has to pass through some prāyaścitta : shaving the head, and have some big ceremony, and feed the brahmins and spend so much money—then you will be accepted in the society. Otherwise you cannot enter the society. He went to mleccha*-deśa , mleccha-deśa , and he has eaten meat and he has mixed with so many, so he will not be accepted. Śyāmasundara: He had to be repurified. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one of our community men, so he became barrister, and when he went back, so he was asked by the brahmins, that "You must undergo this prāyaścitta ceremony." Dhanañjaya: Because he had associated with . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: . . . Muhammadans. Śyāmasundara: Englishmen, Englishmen. Dhanañjaya: Englishmen? Śyāmasundara: Englishmen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: He's using an example from his early boyhood. Prabhupāda: So he became so sorry that he went to take bath in the Ganges and drowned himself, committed suicide. Another, he was also college man, he later on became a very big doctor, Dr. R. L. Dutta, M.D. He also came for education, medical education, here. When he went back, all his father—not father—mother requested, "My dear boy, you have to do this otherwise you will be extricated from the society." So he decided that "I shall leave this society." So, to . . . mother unwillingly granted him permission: "Then you go out. Otherwise our whole family will be extricated." So he simply asked his wife, "Whether you want to go with me or remain here?" She said: "I am your wife. I must go where you go." So the husband and wife went away, and later on they accepted . . . they rejected Hindu religion, they became Brahmo. At that time Brahmo religion was going on. Brahmo religion means . . . Rāmānanda, he was also Rāmānanda Rāya, so he introduced a system of Brahmo religion on the basis of impersonal worship of Upaniṣad. Same church, Rabindranath Tagore's. You know Rabindranatha Tagore's name? Mr. Arnold: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Tagore, the big poet. Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: His father, his father introduced. So he became a Brahmo. They don't worship deities. Impersonal. And they can eat anything, whatever they like. The real facility was that they want to eat meat, pigs, or wine. That would not be allowed. You see? Indians, they did not know how to drink. It was either Hindus or Muhammadans. Amongst the Muhammadans, drinking is a great sin, is it not? Mr. Arnold: Still. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still. They don't drink. That's a great sin. Similarly Hindu. Dhanañjaya: I believe this is introduced by the English. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Dhanañjaya: This drinking is introduced by the English. Prabhupāda: Yes. They did not know how to drink tea even. Yes. Mr. Arnold: Gosh. *Prabhupāda: Society girls or meat*-eating or drinking tea—these things were introduced by the Englishmen. They did not know. Devotee: This is Clive? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: This is Lord Clive? Prabhupāda: No, after Lord Clive. Lord Clive was in the beginning. He established the British rule there, by cheating Nawab Siraj Daula. So after Lord Clive, then Lord Hastings. Devotee: Hastings. Śyāmasundara: Hastings Street in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was, what is called, Hastings, that big speaker, Burke? When a man is chastised in Parliament, what is called? Dhanañjaya: Chief Whip. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: When a man is chastised. Mr. Arnold: No, no, not whip, not whip. A man's . . . Mr. Speaker, you mean? Prabhupāda: Not Speaker. Śyāmasundara: If a man is chastised in Parliament, what is the name? What is the term they use? Mr. Arnold: They withdraw the whip. If he's chastised. Prabhupāda: There is a technical. Mr. Arnold: Well, they call it . . . it's chastised, which means to say that when they withdraw the whip, he then has to leave the house for so long until the whip is restored. They're not allowed to sit without the whip. Prabhupāda: Impeachment, yes. Śyāmasundara: Impeachment. Prabhupāda: Impeachment of Warren Hasting. That's a big book. Śyāmasundara: Oh. The American president. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: There was an American president named Warren Hastings. Mr. Arnold: No, there was this Lord Hastings in India. Śyāmasundara: Oh, Lord Hastings. Prabhupāda: Impeachment of . . . he was Warren Hastings, Lord Hastings. He was impeached by one Mr. Burke. So his writings we read, we had prescribed. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Burke's speeches, some Englishman's speeches, out of them. Śyāmasundara: Edmund Burke. Prabhupāda: Edmund Burke, yes. So he impeached this Warren Hastings for his misbehavior in India. Dhanañjaya: So he was so notorious. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He was so notorious. Prabhupāda: Everyone was . . . I think it was so in the Parliament. Mr. Arnold: But Hastings, my lord, surely was trying to be a decent fellow, wasn't he, and uh . . . (laughter) No, he really was, and I am, how I understand it, first of all the whole Indian subcontinent was being sort of taken for a ride by English people out there, you know. They were really trying to make themselves very rich, very quick, and the, and the Parliament in London, they got so scared that they, they first of all removed many of these people, and replaced them by . . . Prabhupāda: That is natural, if you are in important post, then you take bribe. Mr. Arnold: Yeah, this is why they put Hastings there. But Hastings . . . Prabhupāda: Well Hastings, all the governors used to do it. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The system was, if some presentation was given to the governor or viceroy, it was to be not his personal property. It was kept as government property. So, these governors made a trick that the presentation may be given to his wife. So it was not government's property, it was the governor's wife property. (laughter) These things are going on. Śyāmasundara: I remember the story you told us once about an Englishman, and that man wouldn't let him sit on his bench. Prabhupāda: Yes, in our childhood we have seen it. Even Lord Clive. Lord Clive, at that time there was, when he cheated Siraj Daula. Now he wanted to establish, he wanted to construct Calcutta city. So he wanted some money. So he approached one Indian banker, Sukhamaya Raya. Sukhamaya Raya, at that time Clive was giving facilities, who were helping them. The modern aristocracy in Calcutta was practically made by the Britishers. *They used to give titles, that's all. And give land, and that land is Indian land. So if I, if I say: "You can go and take as much land as you like," well what is the loss of the Britishers? But that man became very obliged, "Oh, the Britisher has given me so much land." (laughter) This was false. I take from Mr. Arnold's pocket, and I pay you. You think, "Oh, Swāmījīis so liberal." (laughter) You do not care that I have pick*-pocketed your own man. This was going on. But they did not take any money from England. Rather, they brought all the money from India here. Yes. So the foolish person, they thought that, "As soon we meet any Englishmen, I become rich." Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha : As soon as you become a friend of any nice Englishman, your fortune is start. And that was being done (laughter). That was being done, because they wanted men. That anyone knew, every city, he's immediately given some important post. Śyāmasundara: Civil Service. Prabhupāda: Yes. A little English knowledge. Dhanañjaya: And a title. Prabhupāda: Some title and money. But they want some clerks, they want some helper. So people began to learn English, and . . . but they didn't want to give high education. No. Simply to become clerks. So one gentleman, Motilal Sil, he was very rich man, so he saw that, "Now English education is very important." So he wanted to start a college, for free education, so that poor man may take English. Because India was poor, so they could not pay for education. The government stopped, "No, you cannot give free higher education." The government did not want, because the government knew that as the, as soon as these people will be highly educated, they will read history, (laughter) and they will know how to . . . they will know how to revolt, how to fight. And actually that became. Devotee: That happened. That happened. Prabhupāda: They did not want to open the secret. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I'll bet they . . . I'll bet they didn't know England was a small island, either. Prabhupāda: Ah. (laughter) And, and somebody goes, he goes, he's near some village, he becomes Lord . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord this, Lord that, but "Where is your Lordship's . . .? You have got so small village." But they wanted to keep their prestige. That was the point. That Gandhi broke this prestige, false prestige. Otherwise, "Oh, Englishmen, they're coming from heaven." (laughter) And they maintained that prestige, somehow or other. Devotee: Chums for a little village. Prabhupāda: Ahah. (laughs) So, and Indians, and there was a Lord Macaulay's note, what is called that, "If you want to keep these Indians in their original culture, you'll not be able to rule over them." Therefore they wanted to kill the Indian culture. And they did it. Śyāmasundara: Dr. Radhakrishnan? Prabhupāda: Yes, that such a fool, you see. Śyāmasundara: Made President, wasn't he? Prabhupāda: They regularly maintained this, I mean to say, standard that, "Anything Indian is, it is primitive, it is useless. Now we are becoming civilized, under our country." That impression was created. So they liked. Then you must drink. You must drink tea, you must drink wine, you must become, dress like European. Dhanañjaya: Refined. You must become refined. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: You must become refined, like an Englishman. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was in India. Anyone who becomes, imitate, a respectable Englishman, he's considered gentleman. Śyāmasundara: Imitate. Prabhupāda: Imitate. Others, Parsis—you know Parsis—they imitate cent percent. Śyāmasundara: Is there a white, whitish color. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are whitish color also. Devotee: (enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is a Dr. Sharma. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: A Dr. Sharma Prabhupāda: He's here? Mr. Arnold: Or Shah? Devotee: I'm not sure. Śyāmasundara: Who is he? Mr. Arnold: There were . . . I don't know a Dr. Sharma, but there were two Doctors. Devotee: Not Dr. Sharma, Mr. Sharma. Mr. Arnold: Mr. Sharma, ah. Śyāmasundara: Probably Mrs. Sharma's . . . you know Carl Road? Anyway. Mr. Arnold: We have one hundred and eight people, so I don't know them all personally. Śyāmasundara: Mr. Arnold has started a guild, Hare Kṛṣṇa Guild? *Dhanañjaya: Guild of the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple. I sent you a lotus badge. Prabhupāda: Oh, I think that you sent me one. Śyāmasundara: Yes, he sent one badge for how much, they charge? One pound? Dhanañjaya: At least one pound. Śyāmasundara: So we're building up many supporters. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Śyāmasundara: They don't pay much, but at least they're . . . Prabhupāda: So you are distributing among Indians or Englishmen? Dhanañjaya: Everyone. Mr. Arnold: Everyone. Dhanañjaya: Anyone who wants to. Mr. Arnold: The, the main idea, my lord, is so that we can find out exactly what they can do. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good idea. Mr. Arnold: Whether they can paint windows, or wash floors, or then consequently when we do get a very nice little temple. Prabhupāda: And our real point was that, how the, in the beginning, the Indians treated the Englishmen. The Lord Clive, he wanted some money. So he approached that Sukhamaya Raya, he was very rich man, banker. So his secretary or his doorman informed—he was upstairs—that "Some Englishman has come to see you." "Oh, Englishman? Don't allow him to enter the house." (laughter) "Let him sit down on the door. I am coming. I am coming. Don't bring him here." That was the position. So he came. He came down. He was very rich man. This Lord Clive wanted to go and see him. He said his doorman, "Don't allow him to enter the door." (laughs) "Let him sit down on the door; I am coming." So he came. So he introduced, that "I am Clive." At that time he might not have been Lord Clive, anyway. "Yes, yes. I have heard your name." He was speaking in Bengali, interpreted. "So what do you want?" "Now, we want some money. We shall return you very soon with interest." So he said: "Yes, I'll give you money. I know you are good man." Because at that time people were not very much satisfied with the rulings of Siraj Daula. So this Siraj Daula was killed by Clive's intrigue. So some of the people, they liked. Dhanañjaya: So he wasn't a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He wasn't Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Who? Dhanañjaya: This Siraj Daula Prabhupāda: Siraj Daula was a Muhammadan. Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? *Prabhupāda: Yes. His only fault . . . he was a good governor, a good ruler, but these Muhammadans are very much woman*-hunter. As soon as there is some beautiful woman, "Bring him . . . bring her." This was going on. So this Sukhamaya Raya advanced money to Lord Clive, and when everything was settled up, he was given vast land and the title "king." Śyāmasundara: The banker? Prabhupāda: Huh? The banker, yes. (laughter) Similarly, Raja Nava Kumar, he was a clerk of Clive, but he helped, so he was also given land and the title "king." Raja Nava Kumar Raya. There is Sovabazar family. So in this way the Britishers created the Zamindars, land . . . land . . . landholders. Śyāmasundara: Oh, they created them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no . . . Prabhupāda: Lord Cornwallis. Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no kings or small . . . Prabhupāda: No, there were kings . . . (break) . . . that is Lord Curzon's advice, that India, send one of the Royal Family member and become King here. Dhanañjaya: That didn't happen though. Prabhupāda: Oh, no. This Parliament interfered. They wanted to bring all money from us. If the Britishers would have ruled, that rule, their administration was very much appreciated, but later on it become exploitation. If the King of England would have ruled the other parts of the world as King, for the benefit of the local people, the British Empire would have continued for long. That was their mistake. It was very nice program, the British Empire. They had very good administration; that everyone admits. But later on the administration became too expert for English people. If they had ruled over the area for the benefit of the people . . . that is the King's duty. As King, as it is Vedic principle, King should give protection to the citizens, make them religious, make them upright. That is King's duty, not that simply collect tax and think that "This property's mine," and spend it as he likes. Of course, in England also, because when the King was doing like that, that Cromwell introduced this parliamentary system. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the King James, he was . . . Mr. Arnold: Executed. Prabhupāda: Executed. Now it is by simply name, "King," it has power. His Majesty, Her Majesty has no power. So this British Empire was very nicely planned, and it was desire of God, but later on they make this policy, exploitation; therefore it failed. That is my opinion. Śyāmasundara: The only, the only thing I could see that they did good is that they gave English, so that you could come to us in the West—so Your Divine Grace could come here and give us Vaiṣṇavism, Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Prabhupāda: So, that was possible even at that time. But they would not accept. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: When India was dependent, they would not accept anything from India; then their prestige is gone. Here, as I told you, when my Godbrother came, Lord Wellington, his wife, Lady Wellington . . . Lord Wellington, he was Viceroy. So there was some introduction later. So Lady Wellington challenged our Godbrother, "Swamījī, your men come here. We educate them, give some title, and they go to India, become very big man, important man. So what you have got to teach us?" She challenged him like that. They are not prepared to take anything Indian, or give any importance. Dhanañjaya: They're thinking you're second or third class. Prabhupāda: No. They knew they're first class, but they would not allow to become first class. Otherwise their prestige is gone. They were teaching that, "Anything, whatever you've got, that is all third class. Take from us. That is first class." This was the impression. Śyāmasundara: Indians are so mild mannered and gentle that they didn't resist. Prabhupāda: No. There is another illusion. If you become supporter of the British rule, you get profit. The British say, "We'll give you land—your land," (laughter) "give you title." So the British businessman, he'll make him chief salesman. (laughter) Chief salesman means any way, they will sell their goods. The chiefs are just like Motilal Sil, he was chief salesman of seven British business houses, but they cannot approach the local customers, they require the help of a broker. But the broker thinks, "Oh, these Englishmen has made me big man." Śyāmasundara: Like Sir Padampat Singhania? He got "Sir" title from the British. Prabhupāda: Yes, that he got because he contributed large sum of money during war fund. So in the commission, not only he, many rich men, got this "Sir" title, because they contributed enough money for prosecuting this war affair. Devotee: Was the Indian government in agreement with this? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The Indian government, did they agree with this? All this? Prabhupāda: The Indian government is British government at that time. Śyāmasundara: There wasn't any Indian government. Prabhupāda: The India was forced to join the war, by British, British government. Śyāmasundara: Pakistan . . . Prabhupāda: And then they utilized Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldier. The India had no hand. And this Mr. Singhania, he supported this, so he was made Lord. So these are politics. Śyāmasundara: Actually, I think that even the word "Sir" comes from Śrī, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The word "Sir", English word "Sir," doesn't that come from Śrī, Sanskrit Śrī? Prabhupāda: Now, that I do not know. "Sir" means gentleman. "Sir" means knight. Mr. Arnold: "Sir" is a knight. Monsieur. It comes from French. Śyāmasundara: I thought it came from Sanskrit, Śrī. Mr. Arnold: It could possibly come from . . . but "Sir" was being used in the West for centuries. Prabhupāda: So where is that Sharma? Devotee: Oh, they went down to ārati . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but the original inhabitants of Britain came from India. Mr. Arnold: Well, this is a . . . (laughs) But, uh, there's two, there's two . . . Śyāmasundara: Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The original inhabitants of Europe and Britain came from India? Aryan, Aryan tribes? Prabhupāda: No, no. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: No. Originally Aryan came from India. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is in Greece, Turkey, and then gradually I think . . . Śyāmasundara: Hun? Prabhupāda: . . . Romans came to England. Śyāmasundara: But there was Huns. Before that there was Huns, and you mentioned others from *Bhāgavatam* , Pulinda, Huns, Mongols, Saxons and . . . Prabhupāda: So Europe, mixed up. Not pure Aryans. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but they, they came from that part, didn't they, India, the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Huns were in this side, European side. Dhanañjaya: We were also . . . *Prabhupāda: North, north of Russia, still they're Huns. Kirāta-hūṇāndhr . Kirāta means the Africans. So the Europeans, originally Indian kṣatriyas , some of them came to this side, being afraid of being killed by Paraśurāma. Kṣatriya-rudhira-maye jagad-apagata-pāpaṁ (Śrī Daśāvatāra-stotra 6). He was, twenty*-one times killed all the kṣatriyas . *Haṁsadūta: What does that mean, twenty*-one times? You mean they took birth again, and then He . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. Twenty*-one times there's seven years war. *Haṁsadūta: Seven . . . twenty*-one wars. Campaigns. Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time some of them fled from, and settled up here. *Śyāmasundara: Because they call our English language an Indo*-Aryan language. That means they find many of the roots in Sanskrit words. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit, the Professor Rowe, he was Professor in Sanskrit, in Presidency College. He has his grammar, Rowe and Wade. We read that grammar. In that grammar he has written that, "Sanskrit is the mother of all languages." He has written. And your European language, from Latin, Latin is also originated from Sanskrit. Just like matri sabdhā , this is Sanskrit. Like Latin mater. Dhanañjaya: Mother. Prabhupāda: Pitri sabdhā . Dhanañjaya: Father. Prabhupāda: Father. Pitā . Dhanañjaya: Pata . Prabhupāda: Pata . Like that. Dhanañjaya: Pata , patri . Prabhupāda: The original "father" and "mother," that is derived from Sanskrit. Śyāmasundara: And in the Teutonic languages also, German languages, like atma means to breath, still. Atma , "to breath." Prabhupāda: And there is one book, Aquarian Gospel? There it is mentioned that Christo, this is a Greek word. But krista is a perverted representation of Kṛṣṇa. In India also, still, we call, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we call Krista , still. My younger brother's name was Kṛṣṇa, so we we were, we were calling him by the name Krista . " Krista! " Not Krista —" Kesta ." And from this word krista , the Christ has come. So this Christian religion has got a link with Kṛṣṇa. And Jesus Christ went to India. He remained there for twelve years. That Aquarian Gospel writes; I do not know. You have read that book? Mr. Arnold: Not at all. Prabhupāda: He resided in Jagannātha temple. Haṁsadūta: I've read it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I read that book. Prabhupāda: You have read it, that's it. But there was some misunderstanding; therefore left Jagannātha temple. He went to Buddhist temple in Katmandu. So at that time he received one letter, his father and mother died, when he was staying in India. So Jesus Christ remained for a considerable years in India. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. There's a whole period of his life, where there's nothing known . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . about him, about his movements. Prabhupāda: Then he started his preaching here. And in the beginning of his life, he was horrified when the Jews were killing birds in the Synagogue. He was horrified. So how Jesus Christ will allow animal killing? And therefore he said: "Thou shalt not kill." From his life, from his other information, he was not for killing. He was not for killing. Mr. Arnold: He did . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: . . . on two occasions cause the death of fish, my lord. Prabhupāda: One thing is, might have done when there was no other means of eating. This is one point, so far I study. Another thing is that what was the purpose, or even there is no purpose, he was so powerful, he could do that. But we should follow the instruction of Jesus Christ, we should not imitate him. Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether that word has been translated from the original language properly. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether our word "fish" is the proper translation for that word in the original. Prabhupāda: Many . . . but in the common men, it is clearly said: "Thou shalt not kill. That is, that you have to accept. That even Jesus Christ ate some fish or some . . . that maybe some special circumstances. Mr. Arnold: The breaking of the bread; the feeding of the five thousand—two small loaves, fishes, certain fishes. Dhanañjaya: Five loaves and two fishes. Śyāmasundara: I read a book put out by the Vegetarian Society that said that, that word was translated from the Greek copy of the Aramaic, and in the Greek, that word means a loaf of bread made of some kind of seaweed that grows in Galilee, a kind of sea . . . Prabhupāda: That may be interpretation. But without interpretation, if you have to accept the Ten Commandments, how you can kill? There is no such chance of killing. And other statement that he gave, that the animals are given under the . . . Śyāmasundara: Dominion. *Prabhupāda: . . . dominion of man. That does not mean they are meant for killing. Just like Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa's foster father, he was maintaining 900,000 cows, giving protection. And it is the duty of the vaiśya community, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). There are three different types of occupation: agriculture, cow protection and trade. That is called vaiśya . So, giving the animals under the human being means protection, not for killing. Suppose if you give . . . you give your child to some gentleman, that "I am going—you take care of this child," it does not mean that the child has to be killed. So I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. I don't. *Haṁsadūta: In the very, very first pages of the Bible it says when Lord created the Earth and everything, and then He says: "The seed*-bearing plants of the earth shall be your meat, and strictly forbidden to eat other things." It says very clearly what they shall eat. *Prabhupāda: Besides that, Lord Jesus Christ says that you should . . . well*-behaved with your neighbor, what is that? Mr. Arnold: "One should love thy neighbor as thyself." Prabhupāda: Thyself? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, in broader sense now, there are many animals, they're also our neighbor, the domestic animals. So Lord Jesus Christ cannot say that your human being are neighbors, they are not your neighbors. And he was horrified when animals and birds are being killed in the Jews' Synagogue. That is . . . so one who is horrified for killing, and he specifically accepted, "Thou shalt not kill." I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. *Mr. Arnold: But it's such a long*-accepted practice now, my lord. Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. You are practiced to something; that is different thing. But when you talk of Christian religion, I don't think killing can be allowed. And besides that, any religion, killing is barbarian. Killing is barbarian. When you talk of religion, there cannot be any killing. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come." Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come." Prabhupāda: Yes. So far Muhammadan religion is concerned, that is also killing restricted, and they had no other ways. It is desert. Devotee: But that's a very . . . *Prabhupāda: Another thing, even killing of animal is required for sacrifice, the Vedic religion also allow—but not cow. These goats, they are allowed. The meat*-eater, under restriction, they can eat goats. But not the higher caste. The Brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśyas , they would not. The lowest class, the śūdras, or lower than that, they used to kill. But not cows, because cow is very important animal. Dhanañjaya: I remember once also . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: . . . on a walk in Mr. John Lennon's estate, you were speaking about how when the old cows and old bulls die, then the mucis, the cobblers, after taking off their skin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: . . . then they could take. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: But not before. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Dhanañjaya: Not before. Prabhupāda: No, it is not very wise to kill cow. But if you want cow's skin, there is guarantee. Anyone will die; you get the skin. And if you want to eat, then at the time when it dies, you can eat. So why you should kill? Killing means economic loss. The cows, while living, is giving the nicest food—milk. And so long you get nice milk, you can prepare so many nutritious foodstuff, from cow's milk. Haṁsadūta: Fertilizer you can get, too. *Prabhupāda: Fertilizer. Cow dung. Cow's urine is also so, I mean, antiseptic. So the meat*-eaters may, if they're insisting. First, first of all, nobody should eat meat. All right, if there is a class of men, they want eating meat, but they can eat. Just like they're eating hogs, or goats. Haṁsadūta: Hunting for things. *Prabhupāda: Hunting other animals. But cow especially must be protected, for society's good. Must be protected—from gratitude. We are drinking milk of cow. How we can kill our mother? From all considerations, especially cow protection must be there. That is the duty of the vaiśyas , kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ . Cow protection is especially mentioned. And the cow blood, the milk is nothing but blood. So you get more vitamin value by drinking milk than eating, drinking, cow blood. From all points of view, cow protection must be there. That is human civilization. From all points of view. Śyāmasundara: And they eat garbage. They don't eat . . . it's not that they're going to eat very much. They eat garbage or any grass. Prabhupāda: No, that is our . . . because of want of food. They should be given nice food. One nice food. Mr. Arnold: Grass. Prabhupāda: You take the paddies of the wheat, and you give him the grass. You take the pulp of the fruit, and you give the skin. You take the plantain, banana, the inside pulp, and you give him the skin. So there is always share, and the cow, taking the rejected portion, is supplying you milk. You cannot avoid milk, but on account of this sinful activity, milk supplies will be stopped. There will be no more milk. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . Śyāmasundara: If they have no mercy for the cow, what to speak of other humans, now they're killing the . . . Prabhupāda: They have no mercy. There is no question of mercy. And they cannot be devotion also, animal killers. According to our conception, every living entity is part and parcel of God. So suppose God . . . in Christian religion also it is accepted, "father." So the father has got so many children. Some of them are animals, some of them are trees, some of them are human beings, some of them are insects, some of them . . . like that—8,400,000 species. *Kṛṣṇa claims sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya : "In all species of life, as many forms are there," sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4). Mūrtayaḥ means "forms." In all species of life. He does not say simply human form—all forms. And Kṛṣṇa's picture, you see, is . . . as loving . . . where is that picture you showed me? Haṁsadūta: He's always with the cow. Prabhupāda: Ah, He is embracing. Haṁsadūta: The cow in the back Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: I have one also. Prabhupāda: So He has personally taught us how to treat with cow. He began a cowherds boy, and His business was go early in the morning to take care of the cows and go in the forest. Dhanañjaya: And also, of course, when He was, when He was in danger after, after killing Pūtanā, then all the women came, bathed with urine . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, the ladies, Yaśodā and other ladies took Him to the cow dung, and cow's tail, like that, so that inauspicity may go. So cow has been given very importance position. And practically we see, we are drinking cow's milk still. Still also many dairy farms are going on. So cow killing in human society cannot be supported. Cannot be supported. In . . . during Emperor Akbar's time, one poet wrote a poetry presenting to the emperor about the cow's appealing that, "I am doing this, I am doing this, I am doing this. I am simply eating grass, and I don't encroach upon your foodstuff, but still I give you so nice food that your children lives on this, and when I die, I give my skin, I give my hoof. I am so serviceable. I am willing to serve you, and still you are killing me." The substance of the poetry is there, and when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped cow killing: "No. No more cow killing." Haṁsadūta: Which king was that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Akbar. The first Mogul emperor. He simply presented this poetry, had the cow appealing that, "I am giving so much service—not only living time, even after my death. Still you are killing me. And you call yourself civilized." So when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped. In Afghanistan still, there is no cow killing. Afghanistan. Śyāmasundara: That's a Muhammadan country, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And long ago I was coming from Kashmir, one Muhammadan gentlemen was my fellow passenger, so when he called for that restaurant man, so he was whispering, "Don't . . . is it cow's flesh? "Well, no, no, no, it is not." So there are many Muhammadans, they won't touch cow's flesh. Still, in India. There are many vegetarian also. Śyāmasundara: Many signs in the restaurants, "No beef." Prabhupāda: Yes. So for civilized society, cow killing must be stopped. It is a great sin. From all points of view—from economic point of view, from religious point of view, from social point of view. Dhanañjaya: That's a big task. Śyāmasundara: Everybody thinks that there's no, we have no reason to not kill cows, that we're simply sentimental, the Indians or the Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Sentiment, yes. Do you think this sentiment is bad? You are drinking milk, and cow is accepted as mother. Is this sentiment? Is it sentiment? You drink one's milk, and you consider that animal as ordinary animal. How you are civilized? According to Vedic civilization, even, just like Kṛṣṇa, because He drank the milk of Pūtanā, He took him as mother, although she came to poison Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa took the bright side that, "Whatever he" (laughter) "she, she might have done, I have sucked her breast. Oh, she has become My mother. She should get the exact position like My mother." This is sentiment. *Haṁsadūta: You know one of their arguments is that if we don't kill the cow, there'll be over*-population. They say. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: Yes, they say about the cows that if we did not have slaughterhouses to kill these cows, there would be so many cows they would take up everything. This, this is the kind of argument. Really. I'm serious. They say. Dhanañjaya: That's demonic thinking. Prabhupāda: The rascals, they do not understand they will be oversupplied of milk, he will be happy. (laughing) Śyāmasundara: Everything will be adjusted. Prabhupāda: You'll get more rasgullās . (laughter) Ghee. Dhanañjaya: Cream. Prabhupāda: Cream, so many things. Śyāmasundara: They're actually bred anyway, the cows. Artificial insemination is what makes so many cows. Our cows at New Vrindavan are born from artificial insemination. They take the sperm . . . Prabhupāda: They, they want for food. They want to kill. Haṁsadūta: The people are not . . . they don't . . . they don't even like milk, these people, at least in Germany. They give the milk to the hogs in Germany. They give. But we sometimes go to a farm, you know, and they say: "Oh, and we have just given all the milk to the hogs." Mr. Arnold: They take the cream off first. Haṁsadūta: They said: "We ourselves, we don't, we hardly ever drink milk. We take a little for our coffee, for the cream, but the rest we give to the hog, or we sell to the dairy." Śyāmasundara: They make it into cheese that tastes like meat, smells like meat. Make it into cheese. Haṁsadūta: Most people don't drink too much milk. The younger children, the children drink the milk, but once they get past sixteen years old, they don't take much milk anymore. Prabhupāda: That means beginning of life is from milk. If there was no milk, how your children would live? Śyāmasundara: Even in Russia the babies were drinking milk. Prabhupāda: So still you're killing. No. There is no reason for cow killing. Śyāmasundara: In fact, a cow that eats grass, it only bites it off—it doesn't pull the roots. The grass grows back, and it's harmless. But the goats, they pull the grass up by the root. No grass can grow there anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: So actually in North Africa, it used to be very verdant, very fertile land, and from so many thousands of years of grazing goats—I read an article in a science magazine—it's depleted the soil. No grass grows there now. It's desert, desert country mostly. The Muhammadans introduced goats, and those goats have eaten all the grass. It won't grow back. Dhanañjaya: But before them there were cows, because that's when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was traveling in his kingdom, and Kali personified was . . . Śyāmasundara: North Africa? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, originally it was very fertile, even in Roman times. Carthaginian. Prabhupāda: Cow dung is a fertilization. Any, any stool is fertilizer. So passing stool in the field, that is, stool is utilized for some purpose. Now in the cities, we are passing so much stool, it is being spoiled. (laughter) No, there was scientific estimation, that we are losing so many, so much quantity of fat and hypophosphite, and this, like that. Mr. Arnold: Did you see the article today in the paper, my lord, that uh . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: . . . one borough council was giving farmers, and all the various people, free fertilizers that was in fact, was made from the human's excreta, and the scientists were finding that there was vast deposits of mercury and lead. In fact it was killing the land, and it was being taken from humans. Prabhupāda: In stool? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: No. In Germany they attempted to extract fat from stool, and they did it. They collected all stool, and by chemical process extracted fat from it. And from practical experience stool is very substantial food, vitamin A, B, C, D. (laughter) You see the hogs, they eat, they become very quickly fat. (laughter) Because human being, eating all valuable foodstuff, they cannot digest—so that is passing into stool. So all the feed values are there. So better the scientist make some research. And they made, German scientist, and they extracted fat from stool. I do not know if they're still doing. (laughter) You know, you know better. Haṁsadūta: I don't know about it. Mr. Arnold: Then the scientists, the German scientists anyway, have made very fine meat from wood. Hauptsfleisch they called it. Śyāmasundara: When was this? Mr. Arnold: They were selling this during the war, in tins. Śyāmasundara: Out of wood? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: The Germans? Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then why not take vegetable? Mr. Arnold: Yes, but, you know the American Spam stuff? Well, when we were in the army, of course, we got cut off, you know, and we was eating anything. Prabhupāda: So, that Mr. Sharma can come. Let him come in. Yes. He wanted to see me. Mr. Arnold: Well, can I be excused, my lord, for a little while? Go and see my wife? She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: Can I be excused? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: She can come up here. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: Later. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let her come. Oh, you can, you can go, bring her. (to new guest) You sit down. He is going, he is going. Mr. Arnold: Well, I'd like change, my lord, too, because I've out since . . . Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Dhanañjaya: Should I bring his wife? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: He's just coming. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . be introduced to the human society. They will be saved. Dhanañjaya: There's, there's some very nice land still in England that could be used for, for a nice āśrama , country āśrama . There's some very nice land still. In Devon, in the West Country of England, in Wales. Scotland also. Prabhupāda: When people understand that we are doing something very important, they will cooperate. It is our duty to convince them. Śyāmasundara: Intelligent men like Mr. Arnold are many. They can understand through philosophy, if we just give it. Prabhupāda: Mr. Arnold can preach amongst . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: . . . gentlemen*-class men. Śyāmasundara: When he becomes more and more . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . convinced. He's a wonderful man. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śyāmasundara: Very logical, and cool*-headed. Prabhupāda: (people enter and Prabhupada greets) Yes? Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on? Prabhupāda: What is that? You should come. Śyāmasundara: Fire, do you want the fire on? Prabhupāda: I don't want. Mandir me bhid bohot hota hai. Jagah nahi hai. To ek jagah ka bandobast kijiye, ap log. Rent hoye aur jo kuch hoye. Ek to accha . . . (The temple is very crowded. There is no space. Arrange some place, by rent or by any means.) Guest: Ha, bhid bohot hai. Jagah kam hai. Jagah ka abhi . . . ji ha. (Yes very crowded. Space is alot less. Regarding some place . . . all right.) Prabhupāda: We want a big hall. Guest: Abhi abhi bat chal raha tha, (We have been holding discussions for some time,) and I have to buy another hall, big place in Kingsway, for few months back. Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. (Come come.) Come on. Guest: Few months back. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Guest: But I think they were wanting much more money. We could not afford to pay that much. Prabhupāda: Money ka kya abhab hai? Ap log nahi de sakte? Itna Hindi, itna Indian . . . (Is there any scarcity of money? Can't you people give money? So many Hindus, so many Indians . . .) Guest: Ha, bohot. Yehi to bat hai abhi. (Yes alot. This is the main thing.) Actually I started coming only few months back. Prabhupāda: (Mrs. Arnold enters) How are you? Mrs. Arnold: Very well, thank you. Very nice. Prabhupāda: To iska bandobast kijiye. Itna bada, bhari kam ho raha hai. Hindu log sab so rahe hai. To isiliye to patan ho gaya. (Then make arrangements for this. Such a huge amount of work going on. All the Hindus are sleeping. That's why there was a downfall.) Guest: Ji ha. Bilkul. Ji bilkul thik kahe. Apki bat thik hai ki abhi Hindu log aur paisa kitna kharch kar le lekin idhar abhi itna dhyan nahi dete. Agar hum ikatthe hokar . . . yehi bat thik hai. (Yes. Absolutely. Whatever you say is right. Your opinion is right, that no matter how much money Hindus spend, they do not give attention to this. If we are united . . . you are right.) Prabhupāda: Wo ek Pakistan nikal gaya uske liye ro raha hai . . . (One Pakistan has left and they are crying) and we can make the whole world Hindustan. Guest: Ji hai. Thik he (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Inka thoda dimag me dijiye na. (Insert the idea in their minds.) Guest: Thik he. (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Thoda sa Pakistan nikal gaya to janma bhar ro rahe hai. (Only Pakistan has separated and they are crying throughout their life.) Guest: Ji ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: And why don't you take this opportunity to make the whole world Hindustan? Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Thoda samajh lijiye. (Please understand it.) I'm doing that. Guest: Bilkul thik bat hai apki. (What you are saying is absolutely right.) *Prabhupāda: I'm claiming the whole world is Bhārata*-varṣa . Last night's . . . you were present last night? Guest: Actually, I'm staying over thirty miles from this place. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I told that, that whole world was Bhārata, Bhārata*-varṣa . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You remember? Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So I'm claiming the whole world Bhārata*-varṣa , and whole world Vedic culture. Guest: Thik he. (Okay.) Prabhupāda: And whole world's God is one—Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: So why don't you help us? Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know why the Hindus, they are not, they are not coming, in my cooperation. They are so much downtrodden. Guest: That's right. Wo to itna hai ki apne log apna hi sanskriti ko bhul gaye hai aur agar dusre ka . . . (They are so fallen that our people have forgotten their own culture and if others . . .) Prabhupāda: Iska mane jahannum me gaya. (That means they have gone to hell.) Guest: Ji ha aur dusre log jo inko apnakar wo wahi prachar kar rahe hai, un pe bhi apne log kehte hai ye to aise hi hai. (Yes, other people are adopting this and preaching but our own people consider them useless.) *Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, kaun prachar karega? Kaun hai prachar karne wala? (No, no, who is going to preach? Who is there to preach?) I can challenge all these rascals. They come to earn some money. These so*-called Bhāgavata reader, and these, and Swami, and . . . they come to earn some money. They do not want that this culture should be spread, neither they know how to spread it. Guest: Yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda samjhiye. (You people please try to understand.) I've used some strong word, but it is with great regret. That so many Indians there are, they are not coming to my cooperation. Guest: That's right. Abhi age se kuch, age se preaching . . . matlab ki ho raha hai jagriti lekin itni nahi jitni honi chahiye. (Nowadays, there is relatively more preaching . . . I mean they are awakening but not as much as it should be.) Not so much as we should. Prabhupāda: That we have congested. We want immediately. We cannot expect monetary help from others. Guest: Naturally. Prabhupāda: You see. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: But they are still giving us so much help, these European boys and American boys. Guest: Yeah, they are doing a lot more. Prabhupāda: Not a single Indian coming. Guest: Yeah. That I do realize, because I started coming this temple about six months back. So I went through some of the literature which I got from Oxford Street in the beginning, before, when I came from India. Prabhupāda: That is my plight, you see. Guest: And I was . . . Prabhupāda: I don't get any Indian, Hindu cooperation, in such a big movement. Guest: So I thought that we Indians who should have much more, sacrifice much more devotion, much more donation to this city and this . . . Prabhupāda: Now immediately we require a big place. Guest: Yeah. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And so, so many Indians, rich Indians are there; they are not coming forward. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: To ap log yadi cooperation karke kuch bandobast kare to makan to bohot mil jayega. Bohot mil jayega. (If you people cooperate and try to manage something, then we will find many buildings. We will find many.) How many Indians are here in London? Dhanañjaya: Around 200,000. Guest: How much? Prabhupāda: 200,000. If they, if contribute one pound each. Guest: One pound each will be with one . . . Prabhupāda: Immediately we can purchase a nice place. Guest (2): Today, the United Kingdom is about ten thousand, uh, ten lakhs . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): Ten lakhs . Guest: Ten million. Dhanañjaya: One million. Guest (2): One million, that means ten lakhs of people living here . . . Prabhupāda: So we can immediately raise ten lakhs . Guest (2): In London there are only about two lakhs now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): In London there are two lakhs. In whole of the United Kingdom . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Isko ap log sab . . . hum to buddha ho gaya, hum kya kar sakte hai? Hum to introduce kiya. (So you people . . . I am an old man, what can I do? I have introduced it.) Guest: Apne bohot kiya. Waise ye maine dekha. (You have done a lot. I have seen.) We went to all the temples of the world and . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (3): The thing is a great achievement. Guest: In this century, I would say . . . Prabhupāda: They . . . you simply speak on your lips but don't come forward to help me. Guest: Hm. That's right. Prabhupāda: It is a great achievement, undoubtedly. Whole world will accept. That's a fact. Guest: Abhi maine apka darshan nahi kiya tha lekin wo literature apka . . . (I had not got your darshan until now but your literature . . .) I have been going through. Abhi pata kiya, abhi aya hua hu. (I came to know just now, so I have come here.) *Prabhupāda: Itna kitab diya humne, itna service kiya . . . (So many books I have given, so much service I have done) . . . but I don't want to become proud. It is my duty I have done. But you should know it. You should help me. Neither the government is helping, neither the Indian people is helping, and neither the foreign . . . Subhas Bose, he raised fund and established one INA fleet. But I cannot do that. Why this non*-cooperation? I do not know what I have done. Ap log thoda sochiye. (Please think about it.) Why this non-cooperation spirit? *Guest: Oh, nahi (no), I would say not non*-cooperation, it is ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes, I don't get their cooperation. Guest: It's ignorance, that they . . . Prabhupāda: But ignorance—that, that it is foolishness. Guest: The foolishness I would say. Prabhupāda: It's not ignorance. It is foolishness. Itna zarurat hai . . . (It's an urgent need) . . . immediately for a nice place. And so many English boys are coming. I can keep thousands of them . . . Guest: Thousands of . . . Prabhupāda: . . . if I get a proper place. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Isko ap log thoda gaur kijiye. Thoda bandobast kijiye. (You people please take it seriously. Make some arrangements.) Guest: When Keśava from USA—he came here about two months back . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Guest: Keśavananda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He's my disciple, Keśava. Guest: 455 Valencia, San Francisco. And at that time they went to have some place, but they said we could not have money, that's what the . . . Prabhupāda: The money, you can, you can contribute. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I came in America with seven dollars only. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Nobody gave me money. Neither government, neither big men. Guest: No, that I know. It was all you alone, personally and all great continuous perseverance. Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda sympathetic ho karke movement ko badhaiye. (You people, please be sympathetic and try to increase this movement.) (break) (end) Conversation -- August 10, 1971, London Śyāmasundara: There's already a big church on it. Dhanañjaya: That may be better, because there's more space there. Śyāmasundara: We haven't seen it yet. We haven't gone inside yet. Mr. Arnold: I'll try and make arrangements to go and have a look at that. Śyāmasundara: And also that other one around the corner. Mr. Arnold: The . . . (indistinct) . . . chapel? That's a very large building. But you can't go outwards. You can't go up. And there's no other facility. Śyāmasundara: . . . (indistinct) Mr. Arnold: Near Oxford. A very large building, but it's, it's in a bad state of repair. Śyāmasundara: We'll concentrate on the other ones. Dhanañjaya: (indistinct) . . . best as far as the land's concerned. It's situated in the biggest area of space. Śyāmasundara: I have to try to find out when George is coming back. Prabhupāda: George can give his . . . what is called? Śyāmasundara: Endorsement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Endorsement? Prabhupāda: No. What is called? Reaction, or . . . Dhanañjaya: His qualities? Prabhupāda: No. The show, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Concert. Prabhupāda: Concert show. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Better he can raise funds from New York, but . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, most of the money that they get from these concerts is not on the concert itself but on the record album and the movie that comes from it, the film. Dhanañjaya: And the royalties. Śyāmasundara: Royalties from making a record of music and the film of the show. *Prabhupāda: Uh*-huh. Śyāmasundara: Just like Bangladesh. They raised about a million dollars from the concert and nineteen million from the record album and film. So those two don't require any special place. They could be anywhere. Dhanañjaya: Better here though, because George has never made any public appearances . . . Śyāmasundara: Actually I think it would be just as big here. Dhanañjaya: Yes. If the result, if people knew, if it was . . . Śyāmasundara: He's never made a public appearance. Only one in America. Dhanañjaya: Everyone from all over Europe will be coming to see him, without a doubt . . . in Europe there's about 350 million people, almost 400 million. Śyāmasundara: Actually he made two statements that, well, they practically promised to do this. He said in Los Angeles when he saw the Deities, "Oh, we must have a place like this in London." And then in New York, because I said: "Well, we don't want to be on your show here. We volunteer. You promised . . ." I said: "You promised us to be on the show in New York, and he said: "I know I promised, and I must fulfill my word, I gave you my word, but I'm just asking you if you will not be on this show, and later I'll have another special concert for Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So remind him. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What about these Hindu communities? Śyāmasundara: Well, that we can do during this time you're here. We can organize it. We can at least inspire them to help us. Prabhupāda: Are they willing to cooperate with us or not? Because they have already opened some Hindu temple. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Dhanañjaya: There's not so much cooperation from them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They want their own local temple. Dhanañjaya: They come here and they stay for āroti , they take a little prasāda , they give some money, then go. Śyāmasundara: They, the Indians know how to organize those things better that we do. They know how to collect money from individual Indians in their neighborhood, one, two pounds at a time. They can do that. Mr. Arnold: We went out to an Indian concert one night at Southall. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: This was . . . we were very welcome, made very welcome indeed. And they had like a very small television, and they had pictures of the Deities there, and Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . about the chanting, and they loved it. I should mention there must have been about five hundred people in that hall. Śyāmasundara: There's no Hindu temples on the West End, West End. Mr. Arnold: There's one in . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Oh, there is? Mr. Arnold: Sikh. Śyāmasundara: Sikh, yeah. But I mean Hindu temple. Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders, the leaders of these communities, they're not so willing to raise funds on our behalf. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders of the Hindu communities, they're not so willing to raise money on our behalf. They'll do it for their own functions, and their own temple requirements, but not on our behalf. And it's a weak . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I'm thinking of the way Sadha Jivat Lal raised so many lakhs of rupees, by selling, organizing, highly organized . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. If they will, they can. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But he says they're not willing. That is the difference. Mr. Arnold: I don't think they're willing at this stage, my lord, because there's been so little done for them, and I feel, and I . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, we're having Jagannātha parade, Prabhupāda is speaking . . . Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers. Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us, "Oh, they are mlecchas , they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good." Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmin , they are not satisfied. Dhanañjaya: Also they say that here in our temple they don't let anyone else speak, so why should we . . . they, why should we let them speak? This is what they say. Because we don't allow them to come, you know, and talk on Hinduism, so they say, "Why should we ask, let them do it here, in our community?" Śyāmasundara: Still, they're asking us to supply them pūjārīs . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They're asking us to supply them pūjārīs . Out of all their community, not one man will volunteer to be the pūjārī . Prabhupāda: They're asking us for pūjārī ? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So why not take charge? Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu center, didn't they ask, a couple, "Come and live there, be pūjārī , " and . . .? I was hearing that. Prabhupāda: But we cannot become pūjārī . . . Śyāmasundara: Under their, under their direction. That's the trouble. Dhanañjaya: So they have, they have already installed a Deity. They have a Deity of Vasudeva in the Hindu Center, but He's not dressed. He's standing with cakra , but He's not, He's not clothed very nicely, and the room is not decorated very nicely at all. He's just standing there. And they asked for a pūjārī to come and look after. But they . . . you see what they're thinking, they're thinking, "Oh, we're pious. We're pious for acquiring Deity." You see? "Deity is only for the lower class people, so they can see, or they will be reminded that God is here. But we already know that God is here." So they turn and sit with their back to the Deity and they talk like this, and the Deity is here. Prabhupāda: No. They, as Dhanañjaya said, that are not willing to cooperate with us. *Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not so sure. They used to be when I was here, and I think if you have a Bhāgavata*-saptāha , if the weather stays, and the weather's any good . . . I don't know. *Prabhupāda: But the Bhāgavata*-saptāha , if they are willing to cooperate with our Bhāgavata-saptāha. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, that's what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Some, some priest come from India, and they cooperate with me. But if they have a feeling of noncooperation with us, then what is the use of paṇḍitas and Bhāgavata*-saptāha ? Śyāmasundara: Saturday night you'll be speaking in the Hindu Center? Dhanañjaya: On the fifteenth. Śyāmasundara: Saturday, next Saturday night. So that will be a good indication. We'll know after then, if they cooperated, if they'll come. I think there'll be a big crowd. Dhanañjaya: Actually, you see, it's the younger Indian families also. They're English. They're not Indian. They're more English than Indian. Their children, they don't speak Hindi, and they're playing just like Western children. So they're, when they see us, when we, when devotees go there, to the communities, they're so eager to take the books 'cause they can read them and they can relate with, with Kṛṣṇa consciousness somehow. Because they go every Sunday to their meetings there, and they hear the priest, and it's all boring. It's for the older, for the old. It's sentimental. That's all. So the older people, they're coming, and they're listening to the readings of the *Rāmāyaṇa* and so many other things. And the young people, they know, "Oh, these, these European people and American people, they must be doing something genuine. Otherwise why are they sacrificing so much?" Prabhupāda: So how to attract the Indian younger people? Dhanañjaya: But then again, they're influenced . . . Śyāmasundara: They've asked us in that Hindu Center to teach classes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: They've asked us to teach classes also in that center. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do that? Śyāmasundara: Not many people come, though. But we could attract them to come. Advertise and attract. Dhanañjaya: See, that . . . their main function is on a Sunday, and the last time Your Divine Grace came there, last year, that's where they hold their meetings, in that hall. But it's full of so much nonsense. They have pictures of Vivekananda . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you call that Dr. Shah? Śyāmasundara: Dr. Shah. Prabhupāda: He cannot help us? Śyāmasundara: I don't know. We're still not sure about him. Prabhupāda: And that one Mr. Ahujya came? *Śyāmasundara: Uh*-huh. There are many men here who respect us, who would help us . . . Prabhupāda: He wanted me to go to his house. Śyāmasundara: Ahh. Prabhupāda: From that Auckland. Śyāmasundara: Oh, he's from Auckland. Prabhupāda: So he visited there . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, that's right, I know him. I have his card, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have got his card? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him just now? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I have his . . . I think I have his phone number and everything too. Prabhupāda: So call him so he can come here just now. He was talking seriously about "You please come immediately." Śyāmasundara: I have his Delhi address too. Prabhupāda: Now suppose the estimate is 250,000 pounds. So how much the bank may advance? Mr. Arnold: I don't think the bank, in this state of, of, umm, the one at King Street, Hammersmith . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: The one at Kings Street, Hammersmith. I don't really think the bank will advance you anything. Umm, you see you've got nothing to mortgage. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Arnold: This is the first thing. You see, when we're talking of Kingsway Hall, you know, the big one, before, well here you had a bank on the site, and they were rather anxious to keep their premises, and consequently they would have loaned us money to retain their site. Any of these four that we're dealing with at the moment, there are no other banks or building societies on the site. This is what I think is, is absolutely imperative, that within the . . . Prabhupāda: The bank will not be prepared to advance in such property? Mr. Arnold: Well, they may well do, but it would only be . . . one couldn't guarantee that they would be expected to. But the bank manager, where the account of this temple is kept, they may be tempted to loan a half or three quarters of it, if they think that the thing is a good . . . I mean, this site at Kings Street, Hammersmith, for instance, if we don't buy it, then the suggestion is that within the very foreseeable future the place will be pulled down to build a large hotel, which means to say that the site is very valuable. On this score, the bank may well be tempted to loan you some money, just on the site alone . . . (indistinct) . . . the premises. They would be interested. Prabhupāda: Then means that a church turned out a new building. So that is a big stake. Mr. Arnold: Mr. Dwyer was very anxious that the Dawson Place should have been purchased, or some house of a similar nature, because these can be used. Śyāmasundara: (referring to Mr. Ahujya) He'll be calling up in a few minutes. He's just gone out. She said she would tell him. He has an Indian Handicrafts house. Prabhupāda: Suppose we can arrange for the money, somehow or other, half. Half a million required? Mr. Arnold: For, for the new premises. Prabhupāda: One fourth million if we can arrange. So is it possible to arrange for the other one fourth million from the bank? Mr. Arnold: I think that if you're putting up a quarter of it, a quarter of a million, then I think there's every certainty of the bank loaning you the other quarter. I think this is quite a definite circumstance. Dhanañjaya: See, because what they do is they loan the money on the strength of the value of the property. If the value of the property is 500,000 pounds, then they'll be quite . . . Prabhupāda: So why don't you try for this property? Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Then I will need the help of this Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . I can try to raise that one fourth million, and one fourth million if the bank advances, then we can negotiate immediately. Śyāmasundara: It would be nice if the Indians could help. Prabhupāda: Do some practical proposal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So far George is concerned, now it is more or less Utopian. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because . . . Śyāmasundara: You can't count on him at all. Prabhupāda: . . . if he was willing, he would have done long ago, but he is not very serious. Śyāmasundara: Well, I've never asked him for it, to do that. Prabhupāda: So what is this asking? When he visited our Los Angeles temple, he appreciated and he said, "Why not a temple like this in London?" Śyāmasundara: Well he's . . . I . . . he's been waiting for me to come here and talk to him here about it. I haven't . . . Prabhupāda: But it is difficult to meet him. Śyāmasundara: Well, he's just out of station now. As soon as he's in station I'll get him, I'll meet him. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him in New York? Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is. Prabhupāda: That you are getting. Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is. Prabhupāda: But they can say, his men here. Śyāmasundara: His men here won't say. They don't know themselves usually. Only his wife or one other, two persons know. Prabhupāda: So his wife is here? Śyāmasundara: They're all with him. His manager, Terry, is there. Dhanañjaya: Bob Dylan would know where he is. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but Dylan changes his number about every two weeks. I have his old number from a year ago. I'm sure it's not the same. Prabhupāda: If he agrees, he can in one night, he can. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I have one number in New York who would know where he is. Al Abramovitz. Mr. Arnold: I wonder whether this large records firm in New Oxford Street . . . Śyāmasundara: Warner Brothers? Mr. Arnold: No, no. Record. James something or other. James . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, right over here. Mr. Arnold: Yes, in New Oxford Street. Devotee: Yeah. Mr. Arnold: They're agents for practically every . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, the, one of the, man who works there, big man, is also with George now. They might know where he is. Mr. Arnold: . . . something to do with that particular firm. Devotee: Derrick Taylor. Dhanañjaya: Kenny Records. Śyāmasundara: Kenny, Kenny Records. Well, there are several record agents. They might know . . . Mr. Arnold: The whole building is taken up, and it all comes under the roof of James something or other, or agencies. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Arnold: Now in New Oxford Street, you can see it very easily. There's a Midland Bank, takes up the ground floor. Śyāmasundara: It's right over here, isn't it? Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, so long I am here, let us try some tangible, not simply proposal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Now we've seen how nice places we can get, so we have to work on these other angles: the Indian community and George. Mr. Arnold: The bank Śyāmasundara: And the bank. There's . . . what about Mr. Gopal? Did you see him? He's very wealthy. Dhanañjaya: Yes, but he helps by donating material things. Not material things, but he likes to give things rather than . . . Śyāmasundara: No, he's never been tactfully approached for anything else. He used to like us. He'd come around all the time. He lost his son, so he adopted us, like that. He used to give us presents, money. Dhanañjaya: The most he's given is carpets. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Carpets. He was giving carpets. The purple carpet in the temple. Śyāmasundara: The carpet in the temple cost how many hundreds of pounds? Dhanañjaya: Three hundred pounds. And the material for the Rathayātrā cart. All the material. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Dhanañjaya: He lives in Stretton. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Dhanañjaya: Near Stretton. Śyāmasundara: Do you have his phone number? I'll call him, call him. He's, I'm sure he . . . we could count on him to give something for . . . Prabhupāda: So take their consult, what price they want. Dhanañjaya: There's also Nandalal Chabria, Mr. Chabria's son, he's here. Śyāmasundara: He's not very wealthy. Dhanañjaya: No, he's not wealthy. Prabhupāda: This Chabria is here? Śyāmasundara: Yes. His son. Dhanañjaya: Nandalal. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nandalal? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is his father's name? Śyāmasundara: Rāma, Ramachand. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ramachand. Dhanañjaya: There's Mr. Padma. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Those men might help do legwork, but they're not wealthy in themselves. Prabhupāda: So you raise one fourth million. Śyāmasundara: Okay. (begins laughing) Prabhupāda: And Mr. Arnold will help for the bank one fourth. Mr. Arnold: I don't think I can get my bank to loan it, my lord, but certainly we'll go and see the bank . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: And we'll pay gradually to the bank. Then we can immediately . . . Mr. Arnold: You see, the tragedy is, my lord, they haven't got one account in this temple in my bank. Śyāmasundara: Then why don't we go and take an account in his bank? Dhanañjaya: Mr. Arnold's in the Midland Bank. Prabhupāda: So why not open all the accounts there? Or ask the present bank that we are proposing this. Otherwise Midland Bank is a famous bank, it is nice bank. Mr. Arnold: Well I suggest that they, they should go to the National Westminster and tell them that you'll want this loan for . . . Prabhupāda: But they agreed, National Westminster. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: To agree to pay on account of this Kingsway. Mr. Arnold: Oh, no. That was Lloyd's that agreed then, because they were trying to save their premises. They knew perfectly well that if it went to someone else then the whole premises, sooner or later, would be torn down. Prabhupāda: That was it. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: So he's, he promised them perpetual lease. Prabhupāda: At what price it was being sold? Dhanañjaya: Two and a half million pounds. Mr. Arnold: Two and a half, which is exactly the price that I told them to put the bid in for. I went over . . . Prabhupāda: Two and a half million. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What Dāyananda didn't tell us is that the bank was prepared to finance the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Huh! Śyāmasundara: The whole thing. Mr. Arnold: Well the bank and the building society. *Śyāmasundara: One building society and one bank combinedly would have financed the whole thing, but he sent us a letter that said only two*-thirds, they would finance two-thirds. Prabhupāda: So he is not very intelligent. A missed opportunity. Mr. Arnold: See, I went to the Midland Bank, to various departments, and I found out almost to within a penny what exactly what it would raise. Of course, some of the people that put in the bids it happened were Midland Bank customers. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I did it, and I . . . Prabhupāda: The bank was prepared to finance it, and he missed that opportunity? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and he didn't even tell us. *Mr. Arnold: The bank was only going to loan two*-thirds. Then the building society next door was going to help, and also the National Westminster was prepared to help, I'm quite sure. But of course, I think . . . Prabhupāda: It was not tactfully done. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Not intelligent. Śyāmasundara: He didn't tell us. Prabhupāda: He is not very intelligent. Śyāmasundara: Had he told us a hundred percent financing . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Mr. Arnold: I pleaded with him to send you a letter. Of course you told him that to only put in a bid for a million and a half, and I pleaded with him to send you a letter that said no, step the bid up to two and a half million. Because quite honestly, I feel that the place was so vast, and most of it was let*-places like Decca Recordings, Kodak, things like this—that most of the repayments to the banks would have been met quite easily. Prabhupāda: I asked him also to consult some expert. Śyāmasundara: Well, somehow or other . . . Prabhupāda: That was two and a half million, and it is half million. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Perhaps it's better if we go step by step. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Someday we'll go up into the big place. There will always be a big place. Dhanañjaya: But there was not even a thousand pounds here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: There wasn't even a thousand . . . at the time, there was not one, even one thousand pounds in the temple fund, and they were going for a two and a half, one and a half million deal. Prabhupāda: No. The bank was prepared to finance. That is the point. Mr. Arnold: You see, I sort of schooled Dāyananda and told him to go over and have words with the bank manager, promising that, you know, if they helped us to fund this building, then we would guarantee them tenure, and instead of paying interest back on the, on the loan, we, for bids, we would give them a guaranteed tenure, or peppercorn rent, but we would pay the original loan back, so that there was no charge at all, it was just . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, na tasya śocananarthi. Don't lament which is gone. (laughter) Mr. Arnold: Yes, thank you, thank you. Dhanañjaya: Don't cry over spilt milk. Prabhupāda: That is Sanskrit, na tasya śocananarthi . Śyāmasundara: Actually, for a place in the center of London like this, it's nice to have offices and a small chapel and maybe a bookstore, but we would not be able to recruit many people to come on a residential basis, being in the center of the city. But in a place a little bit further out, like in a student neighborhood, everybody comes. Prabhupāda: What? Student neighborhood? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they'll come. Prabhupāda: So, why not negotiate that? Śyāmasundara: Daily they'll come and then gradually become devotees. Prabhupāda: No, among the young men there is hankering after this sort of an institution. Everyone asks me, "Why the younger generation is attracted to this movement?" so many reporters. So somehow or other, I reply: "The young men, they're receptive, they can understand the value, whereas the old fools cannot." (laughing) Mr. Arnold: Well, my wife and I, we can. We're old. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are excepted. You are excepted. Sometimes old men are called old fools. (laughing) Mr. Arnold: My wife is twice . . . she's older that I am, and she's made me return because sometimes I've lost my temper with, over, you know, various things that happen . . . Prabhupāda: The thing is that you are liberal to understand things as they are. But generally, old men, they are sophisticated. They do not like to accept anything new, "Go away." Or they are not serious about religion. That is another thing. Actually . . . as I see that old, older section, they have been habituated in a different way, so they do not want to change . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. So "Here is a nice thing; you should accept it." They are not inclined in that way. All stereotyped. Just like you have said last night, I told Lord Zet . . . (end) Conversation -- August 10, 1971, London Śyāmasundara: There's already a big church on it. Dhanañjaya: That may be better, because there's more space there. Śyāmasundara: We haven't seen it yet. We haven't gone inside yet. Mr. Arnold: I'll try and make arrangements to go and have a look at that. Śyāmasundara: And also that other one around the corner. Mr. Arnold: The . . . (indistinct) . . . chapel? That's a very large building. But you can't go outwards. You can't go up. And there's no other facility. Śyāmasundara: . . . (indistinct) Mr. Arnold: Near Oxford. A very large building, but it's, it's in a bad state of repair. Śyāmasundara: We'll concentrate on the other ones. Dhanañjaya: (indistinct) . . . best as far as the land's concerned. It's situated in the biggest area of space. Śyāmasundara: I have to try to find out when George is coming back. Prabhupāda: George can give his . . . what is called? Śyāmasundara: Endorsement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Endorsement? Prabhupāda: No. What is called? Reaction, or . . . Dhanañjaya: His qualities? Prabhupāda: No. The show, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Concert. Prabhupāda: Concert show. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Better he can raise funds from New York, but . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, most of the money that they get from these concerts is not on the concert itself but on the record album and the movie that comes from it, the film. Dhanañjaya: And the royalties. Śyāmasundara: Royalties from making a record of music and the film of the show. *Prabhupāda: Uh*-huh. Śyāmasundara: Just like Bangladesh. They raised about a million dollars from the concert and nineteen million from the record album and film. So those two don't require any special place. They could be anywhere. Dhanañjaya: Better here though, because George has never made any public appearances . . . Śyāmasundara: Actually I think it would be just as big here. Dhanañjaya: Yes. If the result, if people knew, if it was . . . Śyāmasundara: He's never made a public appearance. Only one in America. Dhanañjaya: Everyone from all over Europe will be coming to see him, without a doubt . . . in Europe there's about 350 million people, almost 400 million. Śyāmasundara: Actually he made two statements that, well, they practically promised to do this. He said in Los Angeles when he saw the Deities, "Oh, we must have a place like this in London." And then in New York, because I said: "Well, we don't want to be on your show here. We volunteer. You promised . . ." I said: "You promised us to be on the show in New York, and he said: "I know I promised, and I must fulfill my word, I gave you my word, but I'm just asking you if you will not be on this show, and later I'll have another special concert for Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So remind him. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What about these Hindu communities? Śyāmasundara: Well, that we can do during this time you're here. We can organize it. We can at least inspire them to help us. Prabhupāda: Are they willing to cooperate with us or not? Because they have already opened some Hindu temple. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Dhanañjaya: There's not so much cooperation from them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They want their own local temple. Dhanañjaya: They come here and they stay for āroti , they take a little prasāda , they give some money, then go. Śyāmasundara: They, the Indians know how to organize those things better that we do. They know how to collect money from individual Indians in their neighborhood, one, two pounds at a time. They can do that. Mr. Arnold: We went out to an Indian concert one night at Southall. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: This was . . . we were very welcome, made very welcome indeed. And they had like a very small television, and they had pictures of the Deities there, and Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . about the chanting, and they loved it. I should mention there must have been about five hundred people in that hall. Śyāmasundara: There's no Hindu temples on the West End, West End. Mr. Arnold: There's one in . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Oh, there is? Mr. Arnold: Sikh. Śyāmasundara: Sikh, yeah. But I mean Hindu temple. Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders, the leaders of these communities, they're not so willing to raise funds on our behalf. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders of the Hindu communities, they're not so willing to raise money on our behalf. They'll do it for their own functions, and their own temple requirements, but not on our behalf. And it's a weak . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I'm thinking of the way Sadha Jivat Lal raised so many lakhs of rupees, by selling, organizing, highly organized . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. If they will, they can. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But he says they're not willing. That is the difference. Mr. Arnold: I don't think they're willing at this stage, my lord, because there's been so little done for them, and I feel, and I . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, we're having Jagannātha parade, Prabhupāda is speaking . . . Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers. Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us, "Oh, they are mlecchas , they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good." Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmin , they are not satisfied. Dhanañjaya: Also they say that here in our temple they don't let anyone else speak, so why should we . . . they, why should we let them speak? This is what they say. Because we don't allow them to come, you know, and talk on Hinduism, so they say, "Why should we ask, let them do it here, in our community?" Śyāmasundara: Still, they're asking us to supply them pūjārīs . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They're asking us to supply them pūjārīs . Out of all their community, not one man will volunteer to be the pūjārī . Prabhupāda: They're asking us for pūjārī ? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So why not take charge? Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu center, didn't they ask, a couple, "Come and live there, be pūjārī , " and . . .? I was hearing that. Prabhupāda: But we cannot become pūjārī . . . Śyāmasundara: Under their, under their direction. That's the trouble. Dhanañjaya: So they have, they have already installed a Deity. They have a Deity of Vasudeva in the Hindu Center, but He's not dressed. He's standing with cakra , but He's not, He's not clothed very nicely, and the room is not decorated very nicely at all. He's just standing there. And they asked for a pūjārī to come and look after. But they . . . you see what they're thinking, they're thinking, "Oh, we're pious. We're pious for acquiring Deity." You see? "Deity is only for the lower class people, so they can see, or they will be reminded that God is here. But we already know that God is here." So they turn and sit with their back to the Deity and they talk like this, and the Deity is here. Prabhupāda: No. They, as Dhanañjaya said, that are not willing to cooperate with us. *Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not so sure. They used to be when I was here, and I think if you have a Bhāgavata*-saptāha , if the weather stays, and the weather's any good . . . I don't know. *Prabhupāda: But the Bhāgavata*-saptāha , if they are willing to cooperate with our Bhāgavata-saptāha. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, that's what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Some, some priest come from India, and they cooperate with me. But if they have a feeling of noncooperation with us, then what is the use of paṇḍitas and Bhāgavata*-saptāha ? Śyāmasundara: Saturday night you'll be speaking in the Hindu Center? Dhanañjaya: On the fifteenth. Śyāmasundara: Saturday, next Saturday night. So that will be a good indication. We'll know after then, if they cooperated, if they'll come. I think there'll be a big crowd. Dhanañjaya: Actually, you see, it's the younger Indian families also. They're English. They're not Indian. They're more English than Indian. Their children, they don't speak Hindi, and they're playing just like Western children. So they're, when they see us, when we, when devotees go there, to the communities, they're so eager to take the books 'cause they can read them and they can relate with, with Kṛṣṇa consciousness somehow. Because they go every Sunday to their meetings there, and they hear the priest, and it's all boring. It's for the older, for the old. It's sentimental. That's all. So the older people, they're coming, and they're listening to the readings of the *Rāmāyaṇa* and so many other things. And the young people, they know, "Oh, these, these European people and American people, they must be doing something genuine. Otherwise why are they sacrificing so much?" Prabhupāda: So how to attract the Indian younger people? Dhanañjaya: But then again, they're influenced . . . Śyāmasundara: They've asked us in that Hindu Center to teach classes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: They've asked us to teach classes also in that center. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do that? Śyāmasundara: Not many people come, though. But we could attract them to come. Advertise and attract. Dhanañjaya: See, that . . . their main function is on a Sunday, and the last time Your Divine Grace came there, last year, that's where they hold their meetings, in that hall. But it's full of so much nonsense. They have pictures of Vivekananda . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you call that Dr. Shah? Śyāmasundara: Dr. Shah. Prabhupāda: He cannot help us? Śyāmasundara: I don't know. We're still not sure about him. Prabhupāda: And that one Mr. Ahujya came? *Śyāmasundara: Uh*-huh. There are many men here who respect us, who would help us . . . Prabhupāda: He wanted me to go to his house. Śyāmasundara: Ahh. Prabhupāda: From that Auckland. Śyāmasundara: Oh, he's from Auckland. Prabhupāda: So he visited there . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, that's right, I know him. I have his card, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have got his card? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him just now? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I have his . . . I think I have his phone number and everything too. Prabhupāda: So call him so he can come here just now. He was talking seriously about "You please come immediately." Śyāmasundara: I have his Delhi address too. Prabhupāda: Now suppose the estimate is 250,000 pounds. So how much the bank may advance? Mr. Arnold: I don't think the bank, in this state of, of, umm, the one at King Street, Hammersmith . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: The one at Kings Street, Hammersmith. I don't really think the bank will advance you anything. Umm, you see you've got nothing to mortgage. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Arnold: This is the first thing. You see, when we're talking of Kingsway Hall, you know, the big one, before, well here you had a bank on the site, and they were rather anxious to keep their premises, and consequently they would have loaned us money to retain their site. Any of these four that we're dealing with at the moment, there are no other banks or building societies on the site. This is what I think is, is absolutely imperative, that within the . . . Prabhupāda: The bank will not be prepared to advance in such property? Mr. Arnold: Well, they may well do, but it would only be . . . one couldn't guarantee that they would be expected to. But the bank manager, where the account of this temple is kept, they may be tempted to loan a half or three quarters of it, if they think that the thing is a good . . . I mean, this site at Kings Street, Hammersmith, for instance, if we don't buy it, then the suggestion is that within the very foreseeable future the place will be pulled down to build a large hotel, which means to say that the site is very valuable. On this score, the bank may well be tempted to loan you some money, just on the site alone . . . (indistinct) . . . the premises. They would be interested. Prabhupāda: Then means that a church turned out a new building. So that is a big stake. Mr. Arnold: Mr. Dwyer was very anxious that the Dawson Place should have been purchased, or some house of a similar nature, because these can be used. Śyāmasundara: (referring to Mr. Ahujya) He'll be calling up in a few minutes. He's just gone out. She said she would tell him. He has an Indian Handicrafts house. Prabhupāda: Suppose we can arrange for the money, somehow or other, half. Half a million required? Mr. Arnold: For, for the new premises. Prabhupāda: One fourth million if we can arrange. So is it possible to arrange for the other one fourth million from the bank? Mr. Arnold: I think that if you're putting up a quarter of it, a quarter of a million, then I think there's every certainty of the bank loaning you the other quarter. I think this is quite a definite circumstance. Dhanañjaya: See, because what they do is they loan the money on the strength of the value of the property. If the value of the property is 500,000 pounds, then they'll be quite . . . Prabhupāda: So why don't you try for this property? Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Then I will need the help of this Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . I can try to raise that one fourth million, and one fourth million if the bank advances, then we can negotiate immediately. Śyāmasundara: It would be nice if the Indians could help. Prabhupāda: Do some practical proposal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So far George is concerned, now it is more or less Utopian. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because . . . Śyāmasundara: You can't count on him at all. Prabhupāda: . . . if he was willing, he would have done long ago, but he is not very serious. Śyāmasundara: Well, I've never asked him for it, to do that. Prabhupāda: So what is this asking? When he visited our Los Angeles temple, he appreciated and he said, "Why not a temple like this in London?" Śyāmasundara: Well he's . . . I . . . he's been waiting for me to come here and talk to him here about it. I haven't . . . Prabhupāda: But it is difficult to meet him. Śyāmasundara: Well, he's just out of station now. As soon as he's in station I'll get him, I'll meet him. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him in New York? Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is. Prabhupāda: That you are getting. Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is. Prabhupāda: But they can say, his men here. Śyāmasundara: His men here won't say. They don't know themselves usually. Only his wife or one other, two persons know. Prabhupāda: So his wife is here? Śyāmasundara: They're all with him. His manager, Terry, is there. Dhanañjaya: Bob Dylan would know where he is. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but Dylan changes his number about every two weeks. I have his old number from a year ago. I'm sure it's not the same. Prabhupāda: If he agrees, he can in one night, he can. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I have one number in New York who would know where he is. Al Abramovitz. Mr. Arnold: I wonder whether this large records firm in New Oxford Street . . . Śyāmasundara: Warner Brothers? Mr. Arnold: No, no. Record. James something or other. James . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, right over here. Mr. Arnold: Yes, in New Oxford Street. Devotee: Yeah. Mr. Arnold: They're agents for practically every . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, the, one of the, man who works there, big man, is also with George now. They might know where he is. Mr. Arnold: . . . something to do with that particular firm. Devotee: Derrick Taylor. Dhanañjaya: Kenny Records. Śyāmasundara: Kenny, Kenny Records. Well, there are several record agents. They might know . . . Mr. Arnold: The whole building is taken up, and it all comes under the roof of James something or other, or agencies. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Arnold: Now in New Oxford Street, you can see it very easily. There's a Midland Bank, takes up the ground floor. Śyāmasundara: It's right over here, isn't it? Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, so long I am here, let us try some tangible, not simply proposal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Now we've seen how nice places we can get, so we have to work on these other angles: the Indian community and George. Mr. Arnold: The bank Śyāmasundara: And the bank. There's . . . what about Mr. Gopal? Did you see him? He's very wealthy. Dhanañjaya: Yes, but he helps by donating material things. Not material things, but he likes to give things rather than . . . Śyāmasundara: No, he's never been tactfully approached for anything else. He used to like us. He'd come around all the time. He lost his son, so he adopted us, like that. He used to give us presents, money. Dhanañjaya: The most he's given is carpets. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Carpets. He was giving carpets. The purple carpet in the temple. Śyāmasundara: The carpet in the temple cost how many hundreds of pounds? Dhanañjaya: Three hundred pounds. And the material for the Rathayātrā cart. All the material. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Dhanañjaya: He lives in Stretton. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Dhanañjaya: Near Stretton. Śyāmasundara: Do you have his phone number? I'll call him, call him. He's, I'm sure he . . . we could count on him to give something for . . . Prabhupāda: So take their consult, what price they want. Dhanañjaya: There's also Nandalal Chabria, Mr. Chabria's son, he's here. Śyāmasundara: He's not very wealthy. Dhanañjaya: No, he's not wealthy. Prabhupāda: This Chabria is here? Śyāmasundara: Yes. His son. Dhanañjaya: Nandalal. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nandalal? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is his father's name? Śyāmasundara: Rāma, Ramachand. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ramachand. Dhanañjaya: There's Mr. Padma. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Those men might help do legwork, but they're not wealthy in themselves. Prabhupāda: So you raise one fourth million. Śyāmasundara: Okay. (begins laughing) Prabhupāda: And Mr. Arnold will help for the bank one fourth. Mr. Arnold: I don't think I can get my bank to loan it, my lord, but certainly we'll go and see the bank . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: And we'll pay gradually to the bank. Then we can immediately . . . Mr. Arnold: You see, the tragedy is, my lord, they haven't got one account in this temple in my bank. Śyāmasundara: Then why don't we go and take an account in his bank? Dhanañjaya: Mr. Arnold's in the Midland Bank. Prabhupāda: So why not open all the accounts there? Or ask the present bank that we are proposing this. Otherwise Midland Bank is a famous bank, it is nice bank. Mr. Arnold: Well I suggest that they, they should go to the National Westminster and tell them that you'll want this loan for . . . Prabhupāda: But they agreed, National Westminster. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: To agree to pay on account of this Kingsway. Mr. Arnold: Oh, no. That was Lloyd's that agreed then, because they were trying to save their premises. They knew perfectly well that if it went to someone else then the whole premises, sooner or later, would be torn down. Prabhupāda: That was it. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: So he's, he promised them perpetual lease. Prabhupāda: At what price it was being sold? Dhanañjaya: Two and a half million pounds. Mr. Arnold: Two and a half, which is exactly the price that I told them to put the bid in for. I went over . . . Prabhupāda: Two and a half million. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What Dāyananda didn't tell us is that the bank was prepared to finance the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Huh! Śyāmasundara: The whole thing. Mr. Arnold: Well the bank and the building society. *Śyāmasundara: One building society and one bank combinedly would have financed the whole thing, but he sent us a letter that said only two*-thirds, they would finance two-thirds. Prabhupāda: So he is not very intelligent. A missed opportunity. Mr. Arnold: See, I went to the Midland Bank, to various departments, and I found out almost to within a penny what exactly what it would raise. Of course, some of the people that put in the bids it happened were Midland Bank customers. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I did it, and I . . . Prabhupāda: The bank was prepared to finance it, and he missed that opportunity? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and he didn't even tell us. *Mr. Arnold: The bank was only going to loan two*-thirds. Then the building society next door was going to help, and also the National Westminster was prepared to help, I'm quite sure. But of course, I think . . . Prabhupāda: It was not tactfully done. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Not intelligent. Śyāmasundara: He didn't tell us. Prabhupāda: He is not very intelligent. Śyāmasundara: Had he told us a hundred percent financing . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Mr. Arnold: I pleaded with him to send you a letter. Of course you told him that to only put in a bid for a million and a half, and I pleaded with him to send you a letter that said no, step the bid up to two and a half million. Because quite honestly, I feel that the place was so vast, and most of it was let*-places like Decca Recordings, Kodak, things like this—that most of the repayments to the banks would have been met quite easily. Prabhupāda: I asked him also to consult some expert. Śyāmasundara: Well, somehow or other . . . Prabhupāda: That was two and a half million, and it is half million. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Perhaps it's better if we go step by step. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Someday we'll go up into the big place. There will always be a big place. Dhanañjaya: But there was not even a thousand pounds here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: There wasn't even a thousand . . . at the time, there was not one, even one thousand pounds in the temple fund, and they were going for a two and a half, one and a half million deal. Prabhupāda: No. The bank was prepared to finance. That is the point. Mr. Arnold: You see, I sort of schooled Dāyananda and told him to go over and have words with the bank manager, promising that, you know, if they helped us to fund this building, then we would guarantee them tenure, and instead of paying interest back on the, on the loan, we, for bids, we would give them a guaranteed tenure, or peppercorn rent, but we would pay the original loan back, so that there was no charge at all, it was just . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, na tasya śocananarthi. Don't lament which is gone. (laughter) Mr. Arnold: Yes, thank you, thank you. Dhanañjaya: Don't cry over spilt milk. Prabhupāda: That is Sanskrit, na tasya śocananarthi . Śyāmasundara: Actually, for a place in the center of London like this, it's nice to have offices and a small chapel and maybe a bookstore, but we would not be able to recruit many people to come on a residential basis, being in the center of the city. But in a place a little bit further out, like in a student neighborhood, everybody comes. Prabhupāda: What? Student neighborhood? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they'll come. Prabhupāda: So, why not negotiate that? Śyāmasundara: Daily they'll come and then gradually become devotees. Prabhupāda: No, among the young men there is hankering after this sort of an institution. Everyone asks me, "Why the younger generation is attracted to this movement?" so many reporters. So somehow or other, I reply: "The young men, they're receptive, they can understand the value, whereas the old fools cannot." (laughing) Mr. Arnold: Well, my wife and I, we can. We're old. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are excepted. You are excepted. Sometimes old men are called old fools. (laughing) Mr. Arnold: My wife is twice . . . she's older that I am, and she's made me return because sometimes I've lost my temper with, over, you know, various things that happen . . . Prabhupāda: The thing is that you are liberal to understand things as they are. But generally, old men, they are sophisticated. They do not like to accept anything new, "Go away." Or they are not serious about religion. That is another thing. Actually . . . as I see that old, older section, they have been habituated in a different way, so they do not want to change . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. So "Here is a nice thing; you should accept it." They are not inclined in that way. All stereotyped. Just like you have said last night, I told Lord Zet . . . (end) Conversation -- September 5, 1971, London (Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society): (The following italic text was not recorded but was written on the reel box before recorder was switched on) Dr. Ware: Swāmījī, you'll be glad to know your Society, like ours, is worldwide and not based upon color, creed or designations. Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Prabhupāda: So now the soul is in this body. Next time, the soul will be in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I . . . (break) . . . designation. According to the body I create my designation. But one has to become free from all designation. That is called liberated stage—in his own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. *But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material mode of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation, "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that"—these are all designation. So real perfection of life is without designation. And that is the real, constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa ( CC Madhya 20.108-109). Actual position of the living entity it is (indistinct—microphone feedback problem) Don't disturb, let it go . . . (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for . . . to come to that transcendental position, without any designation. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, or God. That position is perfect position. And if one keeps himself in that designationless position, always thinking of himself as part and parcel of God, then next life he goes back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After quitting this body he does not come back again to take another material body. He takes spiritual body, or develops a spiritual body, and goes back to home, back to Godhead, which means eternal, blissful life of knowledge. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. We are trying to bring all men—of different dimensions, different division—to come to this position, always thinking of that, "I am part and parcel of God. My real position is to serve God." Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. The business of the finger is to serve the body. So long it is in normal condition, the finger is meant for serving the body. When the finger is painful, or in abnormal condition, it cannot serve the body. Similarly, the living entity, being part and parcel of God, when we cannot serve God, that is his abnormal condition. And when he serves God, that is his normal condition. That is designationless position. That is our program. Dr. Ware: That's very interesting. To my mind the nearest approach in the Christian religion is the Unitarian position, which I don't know if you have studied. Prabhupāda: Christian religion is practically . . . from the name it appears, Christian and "Kṛṣṇian." Original word of this "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christo." Dr. Ware: "Anointed." Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Ware: "Anointed." Prabhupāda: Yes. This "Christa" is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ware: From the Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṭa is the popular word for Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is always anointed with tilaka . We follow this tilaka , Kṛṣṇa, anointed with the sandal pulp. So, so far I think, there is some very nearest relationship with this Christian and "Kṛṣṇian". Kṛṣṭa means love, love of Godhead, or love. We are preaching also the same philosophy. Try to . . . not try, the love of Kṛṣṇa is there in everyone's heart, but it is covered. And being covered, it is misplaced. We are loving our society, loving this body, loving our family, loving our kinsmen or loving internationally human society. But this love is actually perverted reflection of real love of God. Because the love is not placed in the real place, therefore we are being frustrated in love. Just like in our country Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very much. But at the last moment the countrymen shot him down. He was shot down by his own countrymen. The love was paid by shooting him, and he lost his life. There are many instances. Dr. Ware: Socrates, Christ. Plenty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So here, the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree, it is simply a waste of time. If you pour water on the root, then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach, immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your . . . automatically your love is distributed to everyone, every entity. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country . . . just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians, they put their love in God, there will be no more fighting. *Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first*-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God. And as soon he becomes a lover of God . . . just like I am Indian, but I have come to Western country to teach love of God. It is not that I am satisfied only in myself that, "I love God—that's all right," but due to my love to God I love others also, because I am trying to teach them to love God. The same philosophy. So if people take seriously this movement, how to love God, then human society will be perfect. Dr. Ware: May I suggest you've already made one contribution from India, which is almost the antithesis, and corroborate your suggestion about pouring water on the root. We do get leaves from India. We pour water on them, and we make that delicious drink, tea, which is one of those drinks which are used for inculcating the brotherhood of man. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But do you think it is natural to pour water on the leaves? Dr. Ware: Well, why not then? That for leaves, water's natural. Prabhupāda: No. You practically you see it is—water on the leave, but you don't water on the root, it will dry up. If you put food on your nose, on your eyes, the eyes will be blind and the nostril will be suffocated. But if you put in the proper place, in the stomach, the energy will be distributed. Dr. Ware: You know that's just an analogy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is natural. Similarly, if God is the root of everything, as we understand from Vedānta*-sūtra . . . God means the original root of everything: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The description of Absolute Truth, or God, is there in the Vedānta-sūtra . That first aphorism is, "What is God?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā —inquiry about God. The next aphorism is, "God is that which is the root of everything, from which everything emanates." That is the perfect definition of God, "the origin of everything." So the same example in God, that the root is the origin of the whole tree. Dr. Ware: The seed is the origin of the whole tree, if I may say. Prabhupāda: How you can be origin, because you are the effect? Śyāmasundara: The seed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The seed. *Prabhupāda: The seed. Yes, seed. The seed is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10): "Everything that is living, the root, or the seed, I am." God says. The seed is God. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām . Just like the rose tree, it has got a seed, but where from this seed comes? (guests entering room) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . give him another . . . (indistinct) *Seed, original seed is God. Your theory of seed is very nice, but the original seed of everything is God, the cause of all causes. In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is said: Kāraṇam . Kāraṇa means cause, cause of all causes, seed of all seeds. There are different seeds. Dr. Ware: Causa causam. Prabhupāda: Ah, cause of all causes. Śyāmasundara: That's Latin? Dr. Ware: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's similar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Ware: A Latin legal phrase: causa causam , the cause of the cause. *Prabhupāda: I see. So God is cause of all causes. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is explicitly said: "I am the original source of everything. Everything is emanating from Me." Iti matvā , "understanding like this," budhā . Budhā means those who are conversant, thoroughly in knowledge. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva samanvitāḥ , in ecstasy, "Oh, here is the original cause of all causes." So in this way those who are advanced in knowledge, budhā , they engage themself in the service of the original cause of all causes. He's the cause of all causes, but He has no cause. That is God. Anādir ādir govindam . He has no cause, but He's the cause of all life. That is God. Just like I am the effect; *my father is the cause. Similarly, my grandfather is the cause of my father. My grandfather is the effect of the cause great*-grandfather. You go on searching out, searching out. So when you find out the original cause, that is God. That is the definition of God. Mensa Member: Do you . . . (indistinct) . . . prime mover argument is who is the prime mover? What is the logical necessity for a first cause? Would you agree with that? Dr. Ware: Well, I think it's inherent in your definition of something that's omnipotent that it's very like saying it's necessary to have no beginning in order to have no end. It's really a concept. Whether it exists or not it doesn't matter. Mensa Member: Yes. Then even negatives imply limitation. If something has only positive attributes, it's limited if you exclude negative attributes. Or is that just a . . . Dr. Ware: Well no, if something has all attributes, we only cause, or call them to be caused, positive or negative because we have a tendency to want to think in terms of dichotomies, "good" and "bad," whereas really, if you're a scientist, you say: "This exists." It's only when morals come in, you say some things are good and some things are bad, and you start making antinomies. Really, your Godhead would contain all those things, and to Him there's no such thing as good or evil, but to Him they are all of value. It's man who saw the good and evil. Mensa Member: I wasn't particularly thinking of the good and evil value. I was simply thinking of negative attributes. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sorry, I don't know quite what you mean. Unless you define the negative attribute, I'm not quite sure what it is. Mensa Member: Not beginning. Dr. Ware: Well that, with respect, I think, doesn't really follow, because there're some things that don't have opposites or negatives, although (in) nature. This is what I say, that there are certain categories of things to which if somebody says: "Now what's the opposite of that?" you'd have to say: "There isn't an opposite," because it isn't the sort of thing to have an opposite. Mensa Member: So you wouldn't accept the prime mover either? Dr. Ware: Well, it's not an argument; it's a postulate. I don't accept it. I mean, you have to accept it if you're going to . . . you know the total . . . (indistinct) . . . so to speak. You can't have it half way. Prabhupāda: This word "positive" and "negative" . . . just like the sun—the backside is the negative and the front side is the positive, light and darkness. Dr. Ware: Well the sun doesn't have a backside of darkness. It's light all round. Prabhupāda: I mean to say, in relationship with the sun, the planet, the planet in the front side there is light. In the backside there is darkness. But the darkness is the effect of the light. Where the light is absent there is darkness. Dr. Ware: Only to an observer. If there's no observer there, there's no difference between light and dark. Prabhupāda: No, this is the actual position. Just like this is sun, but this side is light, this side is darkness. So light and darkness, two opposite elements. But it is due to the same cause. Absence of light is darkness, and presence of light is light. Dr. Ware: Or I say there are some things that have those dichotomies and others don't. Prabhupāda: So actually the cause is one, but in different position, one side is light, one side is darkness. Therefore the cause cannot be different. The cause is one. But under different position it appears, "This is light," "This is darkness." So bad, which you consider bad, that is also caused by the Supreme Cause. In the Supreme there is no good or bad. Everything is absolute. Just like the sun is always light, but, in relationship with sun, the planets, one side is dark, one side is light. So black means that is also caused by the light, absence of light—that is black, dark. Dr. Ware: With respect, it's not caused by the light. It's the absence of light. Prabhupāda: Absence, that I'm saying. It is also, indirectly, the cause is the light. Dr. Ware: No, because your illustration you gave of the light of the sun falling on one side and making that light and the other side dark, but you can also have a body which is in the complete absence of any light anyway, so there won't be any differentiation. Prabhupāda: No. There is light. The light is now visible. Light is there. Just like we say that our relationship with God is there. One is conscious; *another is unconscious. Otherwise, God consciousness is there. Therefore any process that awakens that consciousness, that is perfect process. The consciousness is there. That is stated in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , an authorized book. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). This God consciousness is not something artificial. The God consciousness is there. Just like these European boys and girls, they're now devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Not that artificially we have imposed this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness was there. By . . . under certain process of treatment that has been awakened. Dr. Ware: That's why I think it's better to accept that as it is, rather than make analogies, which are dangerous. Prabhupāda: I may make analogy or not analogy, but the thing is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but it is covered. As soon as its covering is taken away—it is uncovered—the original position comes out. Śyāmasundara: I believe he made one observation which is rather in the British tradition, I believe, where he said that if there was no observer, then there would be no such thing as light and darkness. Dr. Ware: Yes, light and dark are subjective reactions. Really, the scientists would say there are wave lengths of a certain type in one part of the universe and in the other they're absent. But until you have an observer, you can't notice that. Mensa Member: But the planet would still be there . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Well, Samuel Johnson quite rightly refuted that by taking . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually, there is no darkness. Take it sun as, it is whole. There is no darkness and everything is in sunshine. All the planets, they are rotating in sunshine. So under certain condition, one part is becoming dark, another part is light. But actually the whole universe is full with sunshine. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma ( Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). That is the exact definition given in Sanskrit: everything is light, brahma . Mensa Member: That's another postulate. Dr. Ware: You can build any theory according to the number of postulates you're willing to accept which cannot be analyzed, including the basis of science, that the atom, as originally thought of by Theocritus and others, is this thing that you cannot go beyond and cap down . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying with your philosophy or your theology that you go down until you can find nothing, except that you say that causa causam , and then you build back again from that. But that's what I was saying earlier on: the . . . (indistinct) . . . is very close to the Unitarian position in Christianity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: Far more acceptable to every type of Christian than any of the specific creeds or sects, you know, the Church of England, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, every other form of prophecy. And you have that greater universality . . . (indistinct) . . . and you've got Tibetans who will accept your basis in the same way as a Westerner could. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Ware: A Tibetan could accept your position. Prabhupāda: Tiberian? Tibetians? What is their philosophy? Dr. Ware: You've heard of the Dalai Lama? Prabhupāda: Yes. What does he say? Dr. Ware: Well, his position would be the same as yours, wouldn't it? In religion? Mensa Member: You mean the Tibetan Buddhist attitude towards the Godhead is the same as the Kṛṣṇas? Dr. Ware: Yes. They have that same basis. Prabhupāda: But so far we know, that Buddhists, they do not believe in God, existence of God. Dr. Ware: No. They believe in this existence of a "Goddess" if you like. Mensa Member: It's very subjective. The Buddhist point of view in general seems to be very much that of the nineteenth century English rationalist, the agnostic, in its visual sense. Dr. Ware: That's why I say the Unitarian comes closest to it. Śyāmasundara: What is that? Mensa Member: Well, the fact that a Godhead is . . . is impossible to comprehend. It maybe or may not be in very brief terms. Dr. Ware: But if you accept its existence, then it's present in everybody. Which is exactly what you're saying. Whether they utilize it, whether, as you call it, uncovered, or to the degree of which they are conscious of it, is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of consciousness, development of consciousness. Dr. Ware: That's where your line, I think, is so very good in saying that the real evolution of man's mind has been his ability to produce more and more of the functions of whatever the mind may be. But the mind is just as indefinable as God. We know what the brain is, but we don't know what the mind is. Yet more and more of it under conscious control instead of being irrationally eruptive. *Prabhupāda: But there is a summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante , jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise, he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution. That is real evolution. That evolution will go on. But when it comes to this summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is the cause of all causes. That is the final realization. Unless one comes to that point, he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence. Śyāmasundara: How does our philosophy define mind and intelligence? Prabhupāda: Mind is instrument. The mind's position is accepting and rejecting. And intellect helps the mind what to reject and what to accept. And that intelligence is of the soul. That ground of intelligence is the soul. First of all bodily concept is gross life, ordinary, like animals, they do not know except the body. Higher than bodily concept of life, the exercise of the mind, mental speculation. And that mental speculation is adjusted by intelligence, and that intelligence belongs to the soul. Therefore soul is the ultimate, and soul is the part and parcel of God. Therefore God is the supreme. *So the mental speculation or the evolution of mental exercise, when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one realizes, "God is everything," that mahātmā , that great soul, is very rare. That is the statement in Bhagavad*-gītā . Mahātmā means whose mind is great. The mind is great. He's not thinking ordinary things; *he's thinking of greater subject matter. They are called mahātmā , broader minded, broad*-minded. Dr. Ware: Do you differentiate, as Jung would do, it's only a matter of attempting to comprehend the differences . . . (indistinct) . . . of things, the difference between thinking and feeling as rational functions? Prabhupāda: That is the function of the mind—thinking, feeling and willing. Psychological activity. Dr. Ware: Do you differentiate them separately? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Ware: And intuition as well? Prabhupāda: Saṅkalpa , vikalpa . This is, in Sanskrit it is called saṅkalpa , vikalpa , or accepting and rejecting. That is mind's function. I think something, and again I reject it. Dr. Ware: Well, you also react, too. Prabhupāda: You can say in any language, but the function of the mind is flickering. Just like when Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa to train the mind by meditation, by yoga system, he said that "Kṛṣṇa, it is very difficult for me." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34). "My mind is very," I mean to say, "agitated. I think to control the mind is as impossible as the controlling the wind." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi ba . . . vāyor iva suduṣkaram : "And it is very difficult to . . . (indistinct) . . . high wind, and if you want to control it, as it is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, I think the activities of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, to control that is very difficult for me." So actually that is the position. So long we shall be on the mental platform there will be no fixity of conclusion. That is not possible. We have to accept something for the time being, then again reject it. Therefore all mental speculators differ. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A philosopher is not philosopher until he differs from other philosophers. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam . Unless you place a different thesis, he will not be accepted as a good philosopher. Dr. Ware: There it differs from science. Because if science is actually correct, it can only be one. Prabhupāda: But philosophy is taken as the science of sciences. Dr. Ware: Theology used to be that. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: It shows a misconception of the word science. Prabhupāda: So far I remember—I was also a student of philosophy—Dr. Urquhart, he said the philosophy is science of sciences. The science, their, I mean, theory begins from philosophy. Philosophy is the science of sciences. But according to Vedic version, a philosopher is not a philosopher if he has not a different opinion from another philosopher. Nasau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam . Therefore, through the philosopher you cannot come to the right conclusion. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . If you simply go on arguing, that will also not help you. If you simply read scriptures, that will also not help you. Because there are different scriptures. Bible is different from *Vedas* , and *Vedas* is different from Koran. So tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), by argument you cannot come to the conclusion. By simply reading scriptures you cannot come to the conclusion. By following the philosophers you cannot come to the conclusion. Therefore the truth is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ . It is kept very confidential. Then how to have it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186): you have to follow the great personalities who have actually realized God. That is the conclusion. Dr. Ware: The trouble is that you only have the opportunity of hearing or reading what somebody else has said what they have said. So you're back again on the trouble of diversity of observation and opinion. *Prabhupāda: No. So far we are concerned, we are receiving knowledge directly from God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : It is accepted, spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore if you take conclusion from the speeches delivered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is fact. That is very easy authority. Just like the other day I was explaining to Mr. Mathew that, "You are searching after who is your father, but if you simply ask your mother, 'Who is my father?' the truth is immediately disclosed." Immediately. Dr. Ware: Being a lawyer, I would say that that doesn't necessarily follow. Prabhupāda: Why? Dr. Ware: Well, it's a wise woman sometimes who knows who's the father . . . Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune if your mother cheats you. That's a different thing. That's different. We are expecting mother will not cheat us. Dr. Ware: Some of them don't know! Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Suppose you are a lawyer. I put my faith in you, but if you cheat me I lose the case. That is another thing. Dr. Ware: Sometimes it's just honest ignorance. Prabhupāda: No. Generally mother is honest. If one is unfortunate, he has got a mother like that, cheated. Generally expected, a mother is honest. Mother loves his (her) child, he (she) gives the good information. That is mother's position. But if someone has got a different mother, that's . . . The same thing can be applicable to you also. You are lawyer. Everyone depends on you, but if you conduct a case in a different way just to make profit to other party, you can do that; that is my misfortune. I have to depend on you for conducting the case. I have no other means. Dr. Ware: And the poor lawyer has to depend upon the other person in telling him what is supposed to be the true facts. Prabhupāda: But my position is, as soon as I appoint my lawyer, I'll have to depend fully on you. I cannot do anything else. Whatever you advise me, I have to do that. Dr. Ware: Yes, but whatever you told me depends upon what advice I give to you. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But, as you say, the mother gives misinformation. Similarly, if you misguide me, that you can do. But I will have to depend on you. Dr. Ware: But not deliberately. A lot of people don't know that that information is wrong. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes it is done deliberately. Sometimes it is done deliberately, because everyone in this material world is imperfect. Therefore there is tendency of cheating. That is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul—he becomes mistaken, he becomes illusioned, he cheats and his senses are imperfect. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sorry, I think you're using the word "cheat" in a much broader sense. We would use "cheat" as conscious mistake, as opposed to a person who doesn't realize that what he says doesn't happen to be true. Prabhupāda: No, no, conscious . . . suppose you think it is right but it is wrong. That is also cheating. Without knowing the thing perfectly well, if you deliver your knowledge to somebody, that's cheating. Dr. Ware: Well, I think that's being a bit hard. When a person is not . . . if he's tried his best to do something and he doesn't intend to mislead, to call that cheating is a bit hard. Prabhupāda: No, even if not intend, but if you misguide some way or other without sufficient knowledge, that is also cheating. Dr. Ware: Well, we would say, using the English language properly, that's a misuse of the word. Prabhupāda: But, generally, if I'm not in perfect knowledge, if I guide you, that is, according to Vedic version, that is cheating. You must be confident of the knowledge perfectly. Then if you deliver that knowledge, that is right. Just like our position is that we say what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa is God, so we say what Kṛṣṇa says. We don't say anything which does not Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Therefore you are confident that we are delivering the right message. We don't manufacture our own philosophy or words. We simply say: "Kṛṣṇa says, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa, God, says that, 'You simply surrender unto Me, I take charge of you.' " We are preaching the same philosophy, that you surrender to God and you'll become happy, because God takes charge of you. We don't manufacture our word. That is not cheating. Dr. Ware: Yes. But this comes back to what you were saying earlier on. You were saying it isn't necessary or sufficient to read the scriptures. Well if, as you just told me, you say what Kṛṣṇa has said, well then if I could find . . . Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa has said, that is not scripture. Dr. Ware: No, but if it's written somewhere, I can read that; I don't need anybody else to tell me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it is accepted by the great ācāryas that He's God, then there is no doubt. If Kṛṣṇa is accepted God by all the ācāryas , bona fide ācāryas , authorities . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, I think what Prabhupāda is saying is that a spiritual master is requisite in order to transmit knowledge—even though it may be revealed in the scriptures to the student—according to the time and place. Just like someone may be able to read in a book about how to perform a brain operation, but unless there's a master there to transmit that knowledge into reality, it's useless; it can't be performed. Dr. Ware: That merely means, you might say, if you're going to be very thorough and precise, that the . . . it could be explained in greater detail, but it's easier to do it with a master. But you can learn a foreign language by reading a book, although it's much easier if you're taught. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here is the medicine, diabetic. So I have accepted this medicine through a bona fide doctor. Although it is meant for diabetes, I have not accepted this medicine, neither it is advised that this medicine should be accepted by a bona fide physician, so I cannot see properly whether it is good for me. But when the physician, qualified physician, says: "Yes, it is bona fide. You can use it in this way," that is nice. Mensa Member: Coming back to your previous point, if he made a mistake and it's the wrong medicine, would you say he cheated you? Is that the point you were getting at? Dr. Ware: This is what worried me. Śyāmasundara: Yes, because if he purports to be a physician . . . Mensa Member: No, he is a physician, and he makes a mistake, a healthy, genuine mistake. Prabhupāda: Therefore we say we have to receive knowledge from a person who does not commit any mistake. That is our proposition. Dr. Ware: Well, that would be going like God. If you define it that way, you're . . . (indistinct) . . . aren't you? Mensa Member: That does seem a bit . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I said . . . Śyāmasundara: This can be proven. This can be tested. If someone's cheating or not cheating can be tested on a factual basis. Similarly, this science can be tested . . . Prabhupāda: Observation and experiment. Śyāmasundara: Whether it has effect, a good effect, or it has a bad effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is coming down from Kṛṣṇa through the chain of disciplic succession. So if it is actually given in the exact definition, that process, it is effective. And it is actually being experienced that it is effective. Śyāmasundara: Just like this medicine . . . *Dr. Ware: Which may not, unfortunately . . . this is the danger of analogy. This medicine may work in ninety*-nine cases out of a hundred, and in the hundredth one it could kill the poor chap. Now you can't say that the physician was cheating in prescribing it for the hundredth chap, because he just didn't know. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . on the other hand, the other medicine might have worked. Dr. Ware: Hmm. Mensa Member: It is very dangerous. Analogy's awfully dangerous. Dr. Ware: But then some people have to have a concrete example, or they haven't any . . . (indistinct) . . . it's when you analyze the analogy that you can see it's difficult . . . Prabhupāda: No, analogy, of course, it is not always the perfect method. Analogy means the greatest number of similar points. That is analogy. Perfection of analogy is there when there is the greater number of similar points. But we give sometimes the analogy as we understand it. But so far our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no need of analogy. It is accepted as truth, and Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and whatever He says is truth. There is no mistake, and if we carry that message, there is no mistake. Dr. Ware: In other words, Kṛṣṇa is the voice of your God, then. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God Himself. That is accepted. We accept Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means the controller. Just like here there are controllers, but here any controller is controlled by another controller. But param īśvara , God means who has no other controller. He's the supreme controller. That is described in the Brahma*-saṁhitā : īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇa . He's the supreme controller. Here, any controller, he's controlling . . . just like this physician. He has learned his medical science from another physician, another physician, another physician. So we are not the supreme physician or supreme controller. Dr. Ware: May I give you an example of the fallacy there, is that Sir Alexander Fleming didn't learn his curative, antibiotics, from any other person; he discovered them by natural scientific methods of observation and inference and experiment. Prabhupāda: But experimental knowledge of scientific handling must have . . . he have learned from somebody else. Dr. Ware: That's a different thing. Prabhupāda: Therefore he has a teacher. You cannot say that . . . or he has taken the techniques of other scientists and he has experimented in the laboratory appliances. That is . . . he cannot say that he has . . . he invented the laboratory appliances. Dr. Ware: No, but his power of observation was important. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is all right. Dr. Ware: That's in him, and nobody else. Prabhupāda: But he, he has taken help from other scientists' method. Śyāmasundara: In other words, everyone operates under a certain set of restrictions, controls, that are not of their own choosing. Everyone is in that category. They may think, "I am the controller of my own destiny," but actually they are being controlled on every side. Dr. Ware: That's so. But it's only when they break out from that control by, let's say, making an observation or having an intuition that isn't inherent in the system of control in which they've been brought up that they make an advance of any sort. You see, people with . . . I always give this example of Sir Alexander Fleming and Florey and others. People have been trained that dirty petri dishes should be thrown away, because they're moldy, they will interfere with the experiment. This happens time again. Whereas a man suddenly thinks, "I will have a look at this. I'll ignore that." He breaks away from this control. Mensa Member: It wasn't anything new, simply a rearrangement of current, existing data. Dr. Ware: Nobody'd ever . . . they were controlled to reject it. This is what so often happens. Perry Mason is a wonderful example of that—a person who always picks out something that's been rejected in his . . . his celebrated works. Mensa Member: I don't know if Perry Mason is . . . Dr. Ware: Oh, Perry Mason is a very popular courtroom . . . as they say, or trial lawyer, as they call it in America. A person called Erle Stanley Gardner has written a large number of books . . . Śyāmasundara: But a person's knowledge in the material world will always be imperfect. No matter how much he may advance in scientific knowledge, he'll never be able to solve the problems of birth, death, disease and old age. Dr. Ware: Yes. But I mean the Americans, I believe, they would say, "Of course, but so what? You can live without a country." If you start worrying about whether you'll ever be able to comprehend the intellect, you will really not get through the day. Śyāmasundara: But the goal of life, being to become satisfied with my life, is not meant in that way. Dr. Ware: Oh, I agree that to be satisfied with life is to cut down your desire for omniscience; to be satisfied that you can only hope to do quite not . . . not . . . not all of the things you'd like to do, to comprehend quite not . . . not all of the things that are possible. If you are content with that, you may be content to play. Otherwise you'll be one of these dreadful people that become paranoics. Because the world only pressures you into . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Contentment . . . the death is there. If I, somehow or other, make a compromise, that is different thing. But I don't like to die. There is old age. I don't want to be old, but if I make a compromise, that is a different thing. But my desire is not to become old, not to become attacked by disease, not to die. These are my desires. So I can make some compromise, being unable to solve the problems. That is a different thing. But these are the problems. These are the problems. Dr. Ware: It was once rather well put by some woman who said to Mr. Carlyle, who's in a way of being a philosopher. "You know, Mr. Carlyle, I accept the universe." He said: "Madam, you'd better." This is the beginning of, you might say, reason. Prabhupāda: There are sentiments, like Cowper said: "England, I love you with all thy fault." That is another thing. That is a compromise. Dr. Ware: The difficulty is, in any form of discussion like this, it's very fascinating, but it does show the limitations of transmission of feelings and ideas and all those complicated things by a simple verbal process, this is the real problem. Mensa Member: I agree entirely. Zen immediately comes to mind, where the problem's recognized, immediately acted on, and it's admitted that there's an impossibility of transmission by an individual. Dr. Ware: This is where you can't get a feeling across by writing a textbook of it. I think . . . Prabhupāda: No. One thing is that somebody's concluding that to solve this problem—birth, death, old age, disease—is impossibility. That is one school. Another school, if they're following then there is possibility of control over the birth, death, old age and disease. So why not this school, who does not say there is impossible? No, there is possible. Just like we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), that, "Anyone who understands Me thoroughly, he, after quitting this body, no more accept this material body but comes to Me." Now, so long I accept this material body these problems are there—birth, death, old age and disease. Then if I don't accept this material body, then these problems are solved immediately. Dr. Ware: This is what they call "solution by denial." Prabhupāda: It is not called solution. It is a fact, because it is followed . . . then you have come to the original position, to follow the mahājanas. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Our thought is guided by that mahājana . We accept the mahājanas , the great personalities who have achieved success. We follow. *Dr. Ware: "Let us now praise famous men and our fathers who beget us," as they oddly enough seem always to be prize*-giving girls school. But I've never been able to understand why. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that these personalities have to be in a living form, not just in the past. But they live in the form of a spiritual master who's there to guide us personally—not just praise someone in the past. Unless this process is transmitted in a human form personally, it's not . . . Prabhupāda: That is the process in the material world also. You are lawyer because you have studied laws under some big lawyer. So the process is coming. Dr. Ware: I assure you, Swami, that the reverse was true. I went to Oxford. I sat at the feet, as we would put it, of one of the most tiresome men I ever met in my life. He gave me an extraordinary distaste for the law. Any law I've learnt has had to be learned the hard way by, you know, looking at statutes, looking at cases. So I regret to say that I have my own personal experiences . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is of course later on; in the beginning you are a student of a lawyer. Mensa Member: That's used for analogy, because some people have gone on . . . (indistinct) . . . no matter who they are. Dr. Ware: Yah. Yah. Well this is the only thing, "Seek and ye shall find, or be still and ye shall know." I think this is the essential feature that you've been saying is that, really, this grace comes to anybody if they're only willing to expect it. It's inherently there. Mensa Member: With respect . . . (indistinct) . . . among many other people, prove that it's absolutely impossible to establish a rational, umm, a rational grounding for religion. In other words, trying to logically prove axioms is logically impossible. Dr. Ware: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . not necessary. Śyāmasundara: But by verbalizing this philosophy of the Absolute, it trains the student in accepting the inexperience . . . that which is only experienced, by leading them to that point. But certainly we have to have some verbal confirmation of this truth. Dr. Ware: Well some people, oddly enough, don't need it. Some very simple people can have a very true spiritual life without ever needing to verbalize it, usually because they had—this is where I think it's perfectly correct—they have followed some father figure or mother figure, and you know, absorbed . . . Śyāmasundara: Just like my child. Dr. Ware: Yes. Śyāmasundara: She's to that point without having any rational knowledge. Mensa Member: There's some . . . (indistinct) . . . simple people also . . . (indistinct) . . . people like Blake, for example, or Buddha . . . (indistinct) . . . simple person. It's not this sort of faith, only childlike faith—it's often found in simple people. Dr. Ware: It certainly is easier for them, though. It's easier for the simple person, because he doesn't have all these mental, complicated doubts and, you know, arguments with himself. Mensa Member: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's said that as one progresses more and more in spiritual life he becomes simpler and more innocent. But in the beginning he may have had to comprehend it on some verbal level in order to . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: I often used to say to my students that I've got to remember that if anything in life to realize the difference between simple and complicated, which is objective, and easy and difficult, which is subjective. In other words, sometimes a simple thing may be terribly difficult for a person to get hold of, whereas complicated things people find quite easy. Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority. Dr. Ware: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same . . . to some people it comes terribly easily. Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority. Dr. Ware: You then reject the idea of a fear of God. Prabhupāda: No, I don't reject. The thing is that perfect knowledge is received from the authority which . . . beyond the material defects. Dr. Ware: No, what I mean is, fear is not necessary for learning from an authoritarian source. Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect. Śyāmasundara: He's saying that you don't need to necessarily have to fear the authority before you accept him. Prabhupāda: There's no question of fearing. There's no question of fearing. Dr. Ware: That's what I thought. You don't acce . . . that doesn't come in at all. Prabhupāda: No. No. It is out of love, out of affection, the reciprocation. Dr. Ware: Well, that's what I think very often, that it is fear that prevents people from accepting. Prabhupāda: No. No. Why? Mensa Member: That's true. Śyāmasundara: He said that sometimes someone may fear authority. That prevents them. Prabhupāda: Of course, when you accept the . . . that is not fear; that is obedience, respect. Respect. That's not fear. Just like my students—they are not fearful of me. Because I came from India, so what business they have got to be afraid of me? Neither I'm very . . . a greater man, but they receive the philosophy, they understand the philosophy; therefore they have got respect for me. The teacher should be offered the due respect. That is not fear. That is not out of fear; it's out of love. Dr. Ware: I was saying that fear prevents it. Prabhupāda: No. There's no prevention. There's no fear, because they are quite at liberty to ask me question, and they're asking and the answer is there. I receive so many letters daily. So there's no . . . they are not afraid of me. But, out of affection, they offer respect. Dr. Ware: May I make one strange statement that I think it is rather true of the present world? People are always afraid of fear and love. It's almost as though it's something rather sissy or, you know, to get so mixed up with sentimentality. Mensa Member: I don't know what it is rather than fear. Dr. Ware: Well, I mean . . . if you don't know . . . if I were afraid of you because of absolute knowledge or . . . Mensa Member: Yah. Dr. Ware: . . . terrified of the unknown. Mensa Member: That's very true. That's why plan children and such like and things like the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement who not only profess . . . (indistinct) . . . scare into lots of people. Prabhupāda: Just like the child is afraid of the father. There is affection. "My father is displeased if I do . . . Father has said, 'Don't touch this,' so I don't touch. My father has . . ." So that fear and affection, both is there. It is not simply that he is afraid of his father, but the affection is there. So to become obedient to the authority, there is a tinge of fear also, but that is based on affection. That is not actually . . . Śyāmasundara: They were saying also that in this age, particularly now, there is a great fear of loving someone or something on the part of the large population. They think that by . . . Prabhupāda: There is no real love. There is expectation of being frustrated in love. Dr. Ware: Rebuffed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rebuffed. So therefore they're . . . Dr. Ware: Terrified, actually. *Prabhupāda: So because everything in this material world is perverted reflection, therefore we sometimes love somebody and we become frustrated. So therefore others see that, "This man has loved that girl and he's now frustrated. Oh, why shall I love?" That is due to frustration. But there is a perfectional stage. There is a perfectional stage, therefore we say it is perverted reflection. Just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa—that is the perfectional stage of love. Rādhārāṇī is a young girl and Kṛṣṇa is a young boy. There is love. So originally this love between young boy and girl is there, but that is in perfect stage. Here, in this material world, the same thing is pervertedly reflected. Therefore it is imperfect. So we have come to the perfectional stage, not be afraid and give it up—frustration. But love is there. But there is a perfectional stage of love. We have to learn that. Dr. Ware: The Greeks call it agape , as opposed to the old, other form of eros . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lust and . . . eros , lust. Agape is pure love, transcendental love. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to bring everything to the perfectional stage. The others, they're, out of frustration, they want to stop all activity. That is voidism—to stop all this activity. Buddha philosophy is more or less based on this voidism: make everything null and void—no more activities, no more love. We don't say. Just like you cannot see properly because our eyes are diseased. To cure the disease, and then you see properly. And other says, "All right, pluck it out. The disease in the eye, take away." That is not very good proposition. We say that make treatment to make the eyes to see properly. Remedy problem. *Our proposition is, sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat*-paratvena (CC Madhya 19.170). We simply cleanse the process. The seeing process we cleanse. We don't pluck out the eyes out of frustration: don't see; make everything void. No. We don't say that, because there is no void; it is simply frustration. There is variety, nice variety, spiritual variety. We are bringing people to that position. Dr. Ware: I must say that's very interesting. *Mensa Member: Can I ask one last question? The Bhagavad*-gītā —do you accept that as historically . . . an historical fact? Prabhupāda: Truth is historical fact is. *Śyāmasundara: Bhagavad*-gītā —did it take place? There was a battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is historical. *Mahābhārata* . *Mahābhārata* means the history of Greater India. Greater India. *Mahābhārata* . Dr. Ware: *Mahābhārata* . Prabhupāda: This *Mahābhārata* means . . . mahā means greater. Formerly, five thousand years ago, the whole planet was called Bhārata, India. India it is now called. Actually the name is Bhārata. Bhārata is the name given after the reign of Mahārāja . . . one King Bharata. He was the ruler, emperor, of the whole world. After his name this planet is called Bhārata, this whole planet. *Mahābhārata . Mahābhārata is Greater India or Greater Bhārata. The headquarter was in India, but it was greater, according to Mahābhārata history, and this Bhagavad*-gītā is given there in the Mahābhārata . Therefore it is history. And actually it is historical, because the battlefield is still existing . . . Dr. Ware: In the mind . . . Śyāmasundara: No, it's there, Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra, battlefield. Dr. Ware: Oh, I'm sorry, that's the place . . . (indistinct) . . . I thought you meant the battle was still on. *Prabhupāda: No. Battlefield, where the battle was fought, took place, that is still there. There is a railway station, Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is still dharmakṣetra , a religious place. People go for pilgrimage, and in the Vedas also it is stated that kuru*-kṣetre dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . you perform religious rituals in Kurukṣetra. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). It is fact, historical fact. It is not imagination. But many commentators have taken as imagination, therefore they are misled. It is historical. Mensa Member: Well, will you . . . can you take the central road, Dr. Ware? Dr. Ware: I would not need a road if I took it . . . (indistinct) . . . you have been very generous with your time Śyāmasundara: You may ask more questions if you like. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sure there are other people who, I mean to say, wanted to have the opportunity discussing matters. Mensa Member: Next time the Swami's in England, perhaps we can . . . Mensa members can . . . (indistinct) . . . in comparative religion could be . . . Dr. Ware: Indeed, I think that would be very . . . and also it would be very interesting if you would care to take our test. Śyāmasundara: Test? Dr. Ware: Yes. The entrance qualification. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) What kind of questions? Is it scientific? Dr. Ware: No. Just simple intelligence, that's all. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . an I.Q. test. Dr. Ware: . . . that's all. Call it test, but it's something; we've got nothing better at the moment. Prabhupāda: We think our activities above intelligence. Spiritual. Spiritual. Dr. Ware: That's quite different. Prabhupāda: Because above the mind . . . above the body there is mind; above the mind there is intelligence, and above the intelligence there is soul, and above the soul there is God. So we are talking of relationship between God and the soul. It is above body, mind and intelligence. Dr. Ware: That's what interests me. One has this hierarchical or superior attitude even in the statement you've just made, that things, you know, about more contained which is what I feel is easier. Prabhupāda: Because we take from God there is no mistake. There's no mistake. Otherwise He cannot be God. Dr. Ware: I mean this is just unnecessary. It is just tautological. But since this is in your definition of God, you don't have to go any farther. Prabhupāda: But God means He's above mistake, Dr. Ware: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . above the illusion, above cheating, above imperfection. This is God. Śyāmasundara: There's a central premise that everything is simultaneously one and different. Just like flowers—there are many flowers, roses, but within the flowers there is variety. Mensa Member: But still it raises the danger of another . . . (indistinct) . . . it really does. This is a very . . . (indistinct) . . . you're trying to make, but it's impossible to talk about physics in the language of chemistry. It's impossible. So when . . . Śyāmasundara: So when he says there's a gradation, that we see gradation, that the soul is higher than the body, this is also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Soul is higher than the body, mind and intelligence. Dr. Ware: Yes. But that is only because we've learned, I think, when we were small to look up to higher people . . . Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . on each side of them and in the middle, on the other side, before and after . . . Dr. Ware: This is the . . . you see, unconsciously you grow up with all these sort of prejudices, which are necessary. You've got to have some sort of time scale, you've got to have some sort of measuring scale, and therefore you tend to look up, and therefore you think highly of more important . . . (indistinct) . . . you talk about high position, you don't think of chaps sitting on the fence . . . Śyāmasundara: Inherently you'll find the rose is better than the daisy. Dr. Ware: No. Some people might prefer the daisy. Śyāmasundara: But the qualities are there, inherent in the rose, which are preferable to those of the daisy. Dr. Ware: Why? Tell me why. I mean, you haven't given me any reason for saying it is better. Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: The rose has nice scent. It appears . . . Prabhupāda: . . . beautiful. Śyāmasundara: . . . beautiful. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . be subjective . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: And you see, a lot of people would like a red rose, because that has a symbolism to it. Why have a yellow rose? It must have a sort of subjective reaction. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's got a chromatic wavelength. Prabhupāda: So that is a cause. That means there is a cause. We have to accept the cause. So that cause, we go further till we find out the cause of all causes. Dr. Ware: You see, what worries me, Swami, is that there is two ways of making sure you live, each containing this necessity of eating. Now, some people eat . . . (indistinct) . . . they digest it, they live perfectly healthily. They know nothing about carbohydrates, proteins and fats. They know nothing about saliva. They know nothing about enzymes or digestion, and they live quite satisfactory lives. Other people start worrying about whether they've got the right amount of calories, the right amount of vitamins, whether they're taking enough water with the meal or not. One wonders that if you're starting to worry about that, it means somehow you're less perfect than the person who's able to digest quite happily without the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Well, if you say like that, the majority of living entities, they are eating without this knowledge of enzyme and other things. So if you take votes, the votes are greater. Just like human being, a few human beings are interested in analyzing this enzyme. And the human beings are very small quantity. There are 8,400,000 species of life. They're eating with a natural way, and they're quite healthy. Mensa Member: Knowledge of the process is comparatively important. If you want to enjoy it more you don't have to know about enzymes and proteins, you have to know about the right sort of wine and the . . . Śyāmasundara: Enjoyment is the standard. Dr. Ware: And there, what worries me, I was going a stage further, you do tend to find that people who want to understand about digestion are those whose stomachs are not very good. Prabhupāda: Another thing is . . . just like grass, straw. The cows are eating straw and giving the most vitaminous food, milk, full of vitamin A and D. But if you scientifically say that there is, I mean to say, vitamins in grass and straw, then you eat straw and produce. Vitamins is there. Why it is so? Your analysis of enzyme and vitamin, how you can say milk . . . (break) . . . you'll die. Why this law is there? The cow is producing most vitaminous food, milk, by simply eating dry grass and straw. Dr. Ware: No, with respect, Swami, no. By simply imbibing at the same time bacteria which flourish in its intestines and are necessary for it to be able to metabolize this straw. We couldn't metabolize straw . . . Prabhupāda: But you're lacking that bacteria. You're lacking that bacteria. The bacteria which the cows have, you haven't got. Dr. Ware: We've got them, but we kill them. Mensa Member: . . . another analogy. Dr. Ware: Exactly. This is the trouble. It's unwise . . . if you could accept the concept as a whole, there's no need to try and give an analogy. Mensa Member: I don't accept your, um . . . the point you were making when you began that analogy, I think, was that people that do look for spiritual knowledge, in quotes, um, it would appear there was something wrong with them. Dr. Ware: No, no, not always. I say there are some people who obviously . . . if they have to look for it, they haven't got it. The people who've got it don't need to look for it. Mensa Member: Yeah. Resorting to the accursed thing again, some people go to the doctor that are sick and some people aren't sick, are hypochondriacs. Śyāmasundara: It's just like if someone points out to you, for instance, that this material world is based upon sense gratification and everyone is striving to gratify the impulse of their senses, that's a verbalization of a truth which is not apparent in any other way, or it's very difficult to find out in any other way. So suddenly that knowledge awakens one to a higher desire, to attain something higher. So that is the point of verbalization of these things. If we are silent, how will someone be awakened to that truth, that simply by saying this material world spins upon this principle of material sense gratification. That's a truth that you can easily verbalize. Dr. Ware: Well, I think there's a double difference always with these things between the subject and the object. If, in other words, it's objectively necessary to gratify the senses, if you like. In other words, you've got to have diets and things like that, and you've got to breathe, but you can also get a subjective pleasure out of doing that which is different from just doing it automatically. Sometimes we know when we're busy, we just shovel our food down. We don't really have any gratification out of it. We just ha . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. There are four basic principles that Prabhupāda mentioned—eating, sleeping, mating and defending—which are natural for the animals or to the humans. But man is using his propensity, his conscious propensity, to simply enjoy material nature on a more advanced level: to eat better, to sleep more, to have better sex life and so on. It still boils down to that. Everyone is seeking sense pleasure. Prabhupāda: Such propensities are there in animals. Then what makes the difference between animal and man? Dr. Ware: Animals, as far as I know, don't conduct scientific research. Śyāmasundara: What is the point of scientific research? That's the question. Dr. Ware: Because of this feeling of wanting to know. Mensa Member: I wonder what . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: No, no, they've made the observation. I don't think they have the power to . . . Śyāmasundara: Why do scientists make their analysis, and what are the advancements of science used for? What can man use them for? Dr. Ware: Largely, a Freudian would say, to compensate their feeling of inadequacy, of their being not sufficiently treated with empathy and love when they were young. Śyāmasundara: Objectively, seeing is just to gratify the senses. Dr. Ware: Well, Freud said . . . of course, he's the great chap on gratification, and that's where Jung sensibly said: "Ah, that's not sufficient. You've got to have the spiritual side of life as well." He comprises it. Jung got the advantage of being, you might say, a higher stage, to use the words of the Swami, because he's able to contain the lower things like . . . Prabhupāda: The conclusion comes in this way, that to remain animals, scientific animals, that's all. The propensities are the same, sense gratification, but the man is trying to make it scientific. That means to remain animal but become scientific, that's all—scientific animal. Dr. Ware: But at the same time he's a spiritual animal. It's interesting to find that in this twentieth century, science is rather replacing the spirituality. You know, people in the past gave religion an enormous importance, and science was practically unknown. Now they're going the other way around. Prabhupāda: That scientific spirituality, that is advancement more than the animals. Otherwise, if you simply remain on the . . . (indistinct) . . . eating, sleeping, mating and defending scientifically, you remain animal. But when that scientific research goes to the spiritual thing, that is special prerogative of the human. Śyāmasundara: This replacement by science of religion has proven inadequate also in the twentieth century, because how can it satisfy ultimately the questions? Dr. Ware: In the same way, how can you satisfy a person's lack of emotional content in his job by giving him more money? Half of the trouble starts with the jobs. They have no emotive content now because there's no rapport between them and their boss. They have practically no intellectual interest because they have a routine job in a factory. And you know they are really deprived in this sad way. Mensa Member: Then what worries lots of people about lots of religions is the . . . (indistinct) . . . for example of pointing a finger at the moon and choosing the finger with the moon. Dr. Ware: One of the difficulties, and I think this is true when I was saying simple people, using that in its broader sense, some people cannot get anything at all unless they have a little picture. You know, it helps them; not like the dear old lady who found . . . Prabhupāda: That we give, the picture "Here is God." Śyāmasundara: Just like Christ. He came to speak with a very ignorant class of men. He was forced to speak in parables and stories. *Dr. Ware: Ah, yes. Now parable is better than analogy. An analogy is an intellectual thing, whereas a parable is a human thing. It's got a warmth in it. It's in three dimensions, not a cross*-section. And he was, of course, awfully clever at choosing them. Mensa Member: I don't think your friend Christmas Humphreys will agree with either of those statements. Dr. Ware: Knowing him very well, I don't . . . one would be surprised at . . . (indistinct) . . . he would be perfectly happy to feel that I was disagreeing with him. I think he confuses himself with Kṛṣṇa at times. Mensa Member: Well, is that absolutely . . . (indistinct) . . .? Śyāmasundara: The Buddhist thinks that everyone is God? Prabhupāda: In Buddhist theory there is no acceptance of God. There is simply to diminish, or to nullify, the sense of pains and pleasure. That is called nirvāṇa . Dr. Ware: The atheist is the person who worries most about God. I mean, he really . . . God must exist, but he tries to deny it all. Rather like I had a lecturer at Oxford who wasn't interested in women. He was a misogynist. He talked, you know, against women, and he spent all his time telling you that he wasn't interested in women. He thought about nothing but women and the fact that he wasn't interested in them. His lectures were full of it. It was pathetic. Śyāmasundara: Just like Kaṁsa! Prabhupāda: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Gold and women. Śyāmasundara: Kaṁsa hated Kṛṣṇa, and he wanted to kill Him, but all he could think about was Kṛṣṇa. So somehow or other it boils down that one somehow has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious under some process. Dr. Ware: Even other people, not using that name. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . God consciousness. Dr. Ware: That's what I say Unitarians apparently by having so much of this in their . . . (indistinct) . . . in quite a different way from a different philosophy. And, of course, you begin to feel that they must be very . . . (indistinct) . . . because they were so persecuted. If a person is no real menace to you, you don't have to persecute him. Both Socrates and Christ are perfect examples of that. Prabhupāda: Now we are . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to speak something. Dr. Ware: I think that's been most fascinating, Swami. Very kind of you, indeed. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Dr. Ware: And we would welcome you if you would just comply with our simple requirements. We don't have as one of our requirements the acceptance of anything other than the task of spending, about, at the maximum, an hour and a half doing some simple problems. It's an open invitation. Śyāmasundara: To one of your meetings. Dr. Ware: Oh, no, to the test for the qualification. Śyāmasundara: Oh, a test. They have a test for entry into their Society, and they want to know if you can take this test. Prabhupāda: So why not you come to our Society and we test you? Dr. Ware: We test something different, you see. Prabhupāda: We also test different. Dr. Ware: That's right, yes, quite right. Prabhupāda: As you have process of test, we have also process of test. Dr. Ware: And ours is just as universal. *Prabhupāda: Our process of test is how far he is advanced in God consciousness. That is our test. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ . It is said, yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12). If one has developed God consciousness, all good qualities must develop in them. All good qualities. *Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ . And one who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, he cannot have any good qualities, because his business is mental speculation, mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ . By simply mental speculation, he'll be fixed up in this material world. Dr. Ware: Mental speculation alone is sterile. *Prabhupāda: Mental speculation, mano*-rathena. Ratha means chariot, one who is driving on the chariot of mind, mano-rathena. The chariot of mind will take him . . . will fix him only on material conditions. So long one remains in the material conditions of life, he cannot have any good qualifications. One has to transcend this material platform and come to the spiritual platform. Then his natural good qualities will come out automatically. Dr. Ware: This, of course, is the basis, too, of real . . . *Prabhupāda: For example, for example, our boys, Europeans, American boys, they were addicted with illicit sex life. They were addicted for meat*-eating. They were addicted drinking. They were addicted to gambling. Now they've given up everything. There is no illicit sex in our society. There is no gambling. There is no meat-eating. There is not even smoking, or taking . . . drinking tea. How it is possible? They were addicted to all these things from beginning of their life. Now they have given up. If you take this as good qualities, then they have already developed, besides others. Why? Because due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sometimes in America the authorities, they are surprised. They want to consult us on that, "How you people have given up this (MW - entire) LSD?" They are spending so much money to stop this bad habit. "How it is that your members used to . . . (indistinct) . . .?" Not only LSD, all kinds of intoxications. So if you take it as a good quality, that good quality is developing due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore this is a fact: one who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or good consciousness, he may go on speculating, but he'll never come to the platform of goodness. That is our test. Dr. Ware: That is most impressive, that giving up those things which are really . . . if they were inessentials it would be good to give them up, but since they are harmful, it's even more beneficial. How that can be achieved in the modern world is quite a remarkable feat. Mensa Member: Would you say that you agree with the Swami the . . . some of the bases of religion are essential, are therapeutically useful, valid? Dr. Ware: I think, again, it depends upon the person. I should say to lots of people they are essential, or you might even go farther, as Jung would say, that to everybody they are essential, but they mean something different to different types of people from the very . . . (indistinct) . . . and from the long hair to the very abstract. But the people who lack it do seem to lack. It's rather like they lack a gyroscope. They've got no stability. They just sort of wobble all over the place. Mensa Member: No, they don't. One . . . (indistinct) . . . scientific truth is this works. Dr. Ware: I would like to put my own view, is that I believe very much in the Christian ethics, and I could believe in Kṛṣṇa ethics, or, if I might say. But I could also believe in that without the need to believe in Kṛṣṇa or God. Now whether that's a delusion on my part, and I really do believe deep down inside me, and I don't know . . . Śyāmasundara: But the idea is how to transform that belief into practical action. That's the art. Dr. Ware: But some people need the bridge of the Godhead to achieve it. Other people do it abstractly. Śyāmasundara: Today we went to a service, a Christian service, the first one I've been to in years, and in this Baptist church, we walked in there were eleven old ladies sitting in the pews. And outside I could hear the roar of traffic and people. I began to think how much the Christian Church has lost track or lost pull of this ability to be able to guide people to the practical application of moral and spiritual principles, so much so that no one was interested even to come in . . . *Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet regretting that these boys—he saw our students—he appreciated that, "These boys are so much after God, and they're our boys. We could not give them." Actually the same boy was, one year or two years ago, he was not going to church, he had no interest in God consciousness, but now this same boy is mad after God. And he's twenty*-four hours in God consciousness. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. How they have become so . . . Mensa Member: The Swami made a good point when I talked to him the other day that some of the American churches are packed. There's a great swing towards religion in America, and they're getting a lot of humbug, you know, which is, just one of those . . . I think I disagree with you that today theology has lost its status with the . . . (indistinct) . . . of science, but there seems to be a swing, in my little world, towards spiritual things. Dr. Ware: Oh, I'm glad to hear that because, as I say, one's been watching the swing the other way. Coming back to your point, the other vital thing, we said that earlier on, that we still don't know, in other words, in order to get spiritual qualities you've got to have silence. Correspondingly, in the modern world we have this neurotic disease, the desire for noise. These people can't even do a job without having a transistor set on. There's something psychopathic about this. Mensa Member: It can be used though, can't it? The Kṛṣṇa people use it, the concept of using the word "Kṛṣṇa" . . . (indistinct) . . . the ears, the most subtle of the senses . . . *Dr. Ware: Yes, but this "boop*-a-doop" noise they have, the language stops you from doing your work properly. Śyāmasundara: A material noise. Dr. Ware: Noise, background noise, wireless . . . *Śyāmasundara: But if a person is at our temple and he can hear noise coming . . . it's always there, twenty*-four hours a day, because that propensity is there in this age. We should be taking advantage of it. Dr. Ware: But if I might say, you're not taking advantage of it now, you're merely going back to what has always been the cream of any form of sensation, and that's music. Plato's time, the old idea of the music of the spheres. Music is the food of love. I mean it's, to my mind it's the most wonderful sound. Śyāmasundara: In Revelations, I don't remember the exact verse, "Strike the . . . (indistinct)" Mensa Member: The only spiritual sensation for many people, really, it's from music. *Śyāmasundara: Silence is defined in Bhagavad*-gītā as speaking about Kṛṣṇa, or hearing Kṛṣṇa's name. That is silence. Dr. Ware: Well, if you're silent you can hear things, but if you're making noise, you know, the message doesn't come through, and if somebody else is making a noise, you've got an excuse for not getting the message. I think a lot of people again are afraid of getting the message. So with the noise they can say: "Of course, I didn't hear it, so you mustn't blame me." Now that sort of cheating, I think, is a very bad one. That's not what I call positive cheating. That cheating yourself which is even more dangerous than . . . if you cheat the other chap, if he's clever enough he can avoid the effect of it, but if you cheat yourself, you know you might try and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't get out of it. Śyāmasundara: I believe that the . . . (indistinct) . . . spread this philosophy as much as possible in this age because it's been lost by so much noise. . . . (indistinct) . . . in some people. Our message is getting through, though. Dr. Ware: The fact that it can be heard sometimes even above the noise . . . Prabhupāda: One noise makes liberation, one noise makes bondage. Noise must be there. Dr. Ware: But we do have in this modern world a neurotic desire for noise and novelty. The two things together, they . . . Śyāmasundara: There again, novelty and noise, they're sense gratification. We want to gratify the senses. Dr. Ware: Well, don't you think it's also possible too, mind you, that you only have to have novelty because you are not being satisfied. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Dr. Ware: In other words, what's happening is you're not satisfied, so you have to have something to do. Śyāmasundara: Yes. The senses can never be gratified, but always the drive is there to gratify them. Dr. Ware: If you go to a good play or see a good film or hear some good music, you feel satisfied and you don't have to flash back next night because you've seen it before. You have a feeling that, you know . . . Śyāmasundara: Even that, a good play or a good music, is not very long lasting. When you come out of the theater you're hungry. When your hunger is satisfied, then you want some sex life. Then you want to drive home fast. There's always something there to agitate the material senses. Dr. Ware: The trouble is, aren't you going to lead yourself into this difficulty: if you are spiritually satisfied, you would sit down and do nothing. And if everybody were doing that, we should be rather back to where we started rather than have enough food or music or transport. Prabhupāda: That is for the voidist, not for the spiritualist. The spiritual life there is enough activities for even scientists. That they do not know. They mean spiritual life mean void. That is negation of the present activities only, negative idea. But actually, when you stop material activities your real activity begins. That is spiritual life. The spirit, spirit soul, is active. You cannot stop it. You cannot stop it. Now it is acting through these coverings of material, matter, therefore it is imperfect activities. But if the activity is uncovered by material things, that is real activity. Mensa Member: But aren't desires biological in cause? Dr. Ware: They're necessary. Mensa Member: Yes, but they're biologically necessary rather than spiritually necessary. Dr. Ware: Well, may I say, let's go farther, that when you say biologically necessary, is it necessary for you to be alive? What scientific . . . Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has told us that even in the spiritual world there is desire to have the senses enjoy. Isn't that so? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: But I think you need . . . I agree, I would say you need both. I want spiritual life, material life. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . spiritual thing, I mean, isn't it like people talking about China or New York . . . (indistinct) . . . about it, in fact it might even be a little . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Well, I think to each person his picture is different, too. Śyāmasundara: The idea there is that in spiritual activity everything is seen in relationship to God, and if you serve God with your every activity . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example, just like this finger is part and parcel of body. So long it is attached with the body it has got activities. You cut it from my body, there's no activity. Dr. Ware: Yes, but you've still got a body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Ware: You've still got a body, and you've still got some other fingers left. Prabhupāda: No, you can call it a finger, but it will not act as finger; it will act . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: No, but the others will. I don't see the need for your analogy. Śyāmasundara: The God is there and we are His servants. Prabhupāda: If we are part and parcel of God, then we must be active in serving God. That is my analogy. Dr. Ware: But I don't see the need for analogy. That statement is sufficient. Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? There must be a need. If you think, if you know that you're part and parcel of God, then you must act for God. Dr. Ware: You see, I would go the other way round and say that as long as I know that God is part and parcel . . . *Prabhupāda: You cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . God is the spirit and you are spirit. Therefore you have to take lessons from God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated there, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhuta (BG 15.7) that, "These living entities they are My part and parcels." So, because part and parcel of God, therefore the part and parcel must be active on account of God. That is real life. Why stop activity? That is real life. Dr. Ware: I fear, Swami, if I may say so, without disrespect, that in some ways you're preaching to the converted, and you only make it more muddled to me by giving analogies. Don't you feel that at times? Mensa Member: Yeah, I think the Swami's used to . . . probably used to talking to people that need this . . . Śyāmasundara: Never mind the method. Prabhupāda: When there is a truth spoken by God that, "Living entities are My part and parcel, mamaiva ," why shall I not give the analogy? How do part and parcel acts? I must give analogy. Otherwise how they can understand? Dr. Ware: It's like some people . . . Prabhupāda: For understanding, analogy must be there. Analogy is created for understanding. Dr. Ware: But not in the . . . (indistinct) . . . example. A lot of people try and give an analogy to explain entropy. Now, of course . . . *Prabhupāda: Now I do not know what other people give analogy, but my business is that we take it from Bhagavad*-gītā that living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore, just like this part and parcel of my body is active in relationship with this body, but if it is cut off from the body, it is no more active. Similarly, those who are not active in rendering service to God, they're as dead as this finger cut off from the body. So they have to be awakened to that consciousness. Just like a tree, you cut it, it has no consciousness to protest. But even an ant, a small ant, because it has developed consciousness, you try to kill it, it will protest. Therefore the more consciousness you develop, you become active. That is nature's law. That is nature's law. Developed consciousness does not mean to become dead. Dr. Ware: This is what I've said earlier on, that the whole of the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore if one comes to God consciousness, you becomes more active. Dr. Ware: The whole evolution, I think I may have said it before you came in, the whole evolution to the human mind is to become more and more in conscious control. Prabhupāda: So mind, mind, activities of mind, activities of intelligence and activities of spirit, the spiritual activities more greater than the mind's mental activities. *Śyāmasundara: The other day we were discussing Socrates. And Socrates' method was to bring the self under control by inspecting oneself, "Know thyself," and thereby be able to lead a moral life with self*-respect and self-control. But Prabhupāda was saying that this is not an ordinary thing. Not many men can achieve this rational control. So by simply cultivating spirit, nourishing spiritual life, any man can control his senses. Prabhupāda: Just like, somebody, there is a child, a child is active, but his frivolous activities, or mischievous activities, have to stop when he's active in taking education. The same child, his energy for becoming active is transferred for taking education. He's no more acting mischievously, breaking this, doing this, doing that. *The activity is there. Now that is purified. Similarly, spiritual life means the spiritual activity, that is purified activity. These boys, they have given up drinking, meat*-eating. That does not mean they stop eating. They're eating better things. Therefore they have given up the nonsense eating. So that is spiritual life. Spiritual life means activity purified. Śyāmasundara: Rationally, I was thought to be intelligent. I went to college, got so many degrees, but I could not in the least control my senses and control my mind, even though I tried. I studied philosophy so hard. But by simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and coming to the platform of service for God, all my activities became dovetailed in one direction so that the other things were automatically brought under control as a result. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). The exact word is there, that if one gets good engagement, he can gives up bad engagement. But he cannot make it inactive. That is not possible, because soul is active. It is living. How he can make it inactive? That is not possible. Nirvāṇa means stop nonsense, but take to spiritual life. That is next, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Nirvāṇa does not mean to stop activities; to stop nonsense activities. Come to the real activity. Dr. Ware: Well aṇiman , the word many people use for the soul, also means of course, life . . . (indistinct) . . . being animate. The two are synonymous. Śyāmasundara: Just like you were saying a while ago that if you were in God consciousness, you need not wear a robe. That's also our philosophy. It's very practical. But your consciousness would be always serving Kṛṣṇa, always serving God, in whatever status of life. It isn't necessary to put on a robe first and then God consciousness. Dr. Ware: But it helps some people. Mensa Member: The soul is a very interesting concept, the soul as well, the fact that the soul is quantifiable, that it exists in a smaller part in the larger animals, and a higher part in a higher animals. Śyāmasundara: No. It's the same size in all entities. Mensa Member: Oh, it is, is it? But when we reach a point when we don't know whether there are living things or not, you know, the amino acids, and things like that or . . . Dr. Ware: Well, I would take up that straight away, fundamentally, that it's perfectly correct to say it's the same size every . . . (indistinct) . . . has no size. Prabhupāda: No. It has size. We cannot measure it. Dr. Ware: That's what I mean. Therefore the word "size" is a misconception. Prabhupāda: But that is not a scientific statement. Because you have no measuring instrument you cannot say it has no size. Dr. Ware: Now, if what you say it has not got three dimension, but when we talk about size . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, three dimension. It is said, it is estimated that ten . . . one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Dr. Ware: (laughs) We could do better than that with a micron. Prabhupāda: Then find out the soul, if you have got instrument. Mensa Member: How many angels on the end of a pin? Dr. Ware: In fact this is coming back to that . . . the analogy again. Mensa Member: But the whole thing is so . . . (indistinct) . . . about this . . . (indistinct) . . . putting in Kṛṣṇa instead of Christ. Dr. Ware: But the whole business, if you try to explain . . . Prabhupāda: In geometry they say the point has no length nor breadth. But that is not fact. The point has length and breadth, but you cannot measure it. Dr. Ware: Ah, but the mathematician would say that that isn't . . . the definition of a point is something that has no breadth or depth, but his purpose is working out his philosophy. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . he'd say something entirely different. They'd say that the absolute point . . . Prabhupāda: But if you magnify the point, you'll find there is . . . Dr. Ware: But, coming back to . . . Prabhupāda: It is a question of vision. With your present imperfect vision you do not see. When you take a magnifying glass you see, "Oh, there is length and breadth." Dr. Ware: Ah, but that brings you, Swami, straight away into the problem of the infinite regress. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be . . . Dr. Ware: It becomes smaller and smaller. But you know, you might just as well stop at the beginning as start at the end. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the smallest of the smallest." Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Veda . Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). God is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. Dr. Ware: You're using materialist words, Swami. You're using materialist words, "greater" and "smaller." Prabhupāda: What you meant spiritual? Dr. Ware: No, but I say you are using materialist words to describe them. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by spiritual? No speaking? Dr. Ware: What I say is . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: If I say greater and smaller in this way, and you say this is material, then what is a spiritual expression of this? Can you give me? That means stop, stop talking? Dr. Ware: You don't need it . . . Prabhupāda: . . . you have to. This is not material. When you speak in spiritual connection, this is spiritual. Dr. Ware: You'd have to invent a new language, really. Prabhupāda: No. Why invent? The same language. The same language. Dr. Ware: Well you won't get very far in any form of philosophy in . . . (indistinct) . . . language. Mensa Member: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: But the consciousness in which something is done denotes it. For instance, I could be sweeping the street. Someone would think, "Ah, I'm just a material street sweeper." But if I'm doing it for Kṛṣṇa, it's a transcendental activity, it's a spiritual activity, not a material activity. Dr. Ware: Ah, yes, but I mean, then you have a sort of . . . if somebody else who's sweeping faster and better, you say that he's greater spiritually even if he's doing it . . . Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: No, the purpose must be spiritual. The purpose must be for Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: So if we're speaking about Kṛṣṇa, then our words become spiritual. Dr. Ware: Yes, but I think if you're talking about spiritual things, you mustn't try and quantify it. *Prabhupāda: Spiritual means it has no material qualification. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate ( Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). Dr. Ware: You can't measure the beauty of a rose with a ruler. Śyāmasundara: But you can say it's like this, it's like that. You have to be able to describe it somehow. Prabhupāda: Actually, in higher sense there is nothing material, because everything is emanating from God, therefore everything is spiritual. Dr. Ware: Well, that's true, but the electron, as far as you can say, may be spiritual. Prabhupāda: There is no distinction in higher status, because we say that everything that we see, that is manifestation of God's energy. Dr. Ware: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Energy. So in that sense, if it is God's energy there is nothing material. It is material when we forget God. That is material. Dr. Ware: Well, I would have said . . . but really, rather going back to the analogy of the light. If there's no light there, you can't see whether there's anything there or not. Directly you have the light it enables you to see it. But the things exist independent of whether the light was there all along. Prabhupāda: The light is . . . light is in relationship with fire. So light is not different from the fire. Unless there is fire there is no light, there is no heat. So as soon as you feel heat or see light, the fire is there. In higher sense, those who can realize, immediately realize that there is fire. Just like here there's light. Immediately you can understand there is fire, there is electricity. So it is a question of realization. In the higher realization there is nothing matter; everything is spiritual. Simply when you forget God, that is material. That is material. Śyāmasundara: By using this analogy he's proving that there's a contingency. There's a . . . that wherever there's heat and wherever there's light there must be fire. Dr. Ware: With respect, no, because you can have an infrared thing which is not fire. Śyāmasundara: The original source is fire. Dr. Ware: Or ultraviolet. No. Prabhupāda: How can you explain light without fire? Dr. Ware: Ultraviolet light doesn't have a fire. Prabhupāda: There is sun, ultraviolet rays of the sun. Śyāmasundara: How can you produce ultraviolet light except with electrical apparatus, electricity? Prabhupāda: Light and heat, you cannot think of without fire. Mensa Member: Fluorescence, certain chemicals. Śyāmasundara: The origin is . . . Dr. Ware: You're making . . . Prabhupāda: There is no light, no heat without fire. That's a fact. Mensa Member: Everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . I think. Dr. Ware: Yeah, you see, that's the trouble. You can say really that there's no light or heat without an electrical movement. That's as far as you need. You don't need to go any farther. Mensa Member: No, the point you were making is that the absolute source of everything is the sun. Was that the . . .? Prabhupāda: That is heat. That is fire. Mensa Member: Even if it's not there now, it was there a thousand years ago. Śyāmasundara: It's gone through about the different transformations from its original source. Dr. Ware: Well, this is a form of scientific atavism. It's rather outmoded with the usual concepts of long ago. But one's got beyond that now. Śyāmasundara: No, it then takes . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) So we have to go down or not. So we can go down. Dr. Ware: Most interesting . . . (indistinct) Mensa Member: Yes, but it all . . . (indistinct) . . . great argument. Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall talk more when we meet next. Dr. Ware: Well, I've enjoyed it very much, and it was very kind of you. Where are you going on Wednesday? Where are you going? Prabhupāda: I'm going to Mombasa. Dr. Ware: Really. One of my greatest pleasures was to be able to entertain the Dalai Lama's secretary in the luncheon hall in Lincoln's Inn just near here. Śyāmasundara: We went walking there one morning, Lincoln's Inn. Mensa Member: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Yes. I've always wanted to go there. We've got four Tibetans over, studying . . . (indistinct) . . . part of the college estate of Hampstead. And I've always liked the idea of their going up into those wonderful mountains and . . . Although you may say, you know, one mustn't overvalue material things, as far as their diet is concerned, they must be very much like you followers. You know, they have . . . because they have . . . (indistinct) . . . they have nothing wrong with their gums or their teeth. It must be about the only place in the world . . . Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has all his teeth, too. He is nearly eighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. I've got my natural teeth. Śyāmasundara: Perfect diet. Mensa Member: Thank you for sparing this time and . . . Dr. Ware: Such short notice, I didn't realize . . . it was such a pleasure, and I was so glad that you were able to fit it in before you go. Śyāmasundara: He's going to speak now down in the temple. If you can stay, listen more. Dr. Ware: Well, I don't know. I should imagine the crowd is so great. Śyāmasundara: (chuckles) Well, you can sit in front. Dr. Ware: We will see as we go down, I think . . . I must take my spiritual . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 5, 1971, London (Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society): (The following italic text was not recorded but was written on the reel box before recorder was switched on) Dr. Ware: Swāmījī, you'll be glad to know your Society, like ours, is worldwide and not based upon color, creed or designations. Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Prabhupāda: So now the soul is in this body. Next time, the soul will be in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I . . . (break) . . . designation. According to the body I create my designation. But one has to become free from all designation. That is called liberated stage—in his own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. *But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material mode of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation, "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that"—these are all designation. So real perfection of life is without designation. And that is the real, constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa ( CC Madhya 20.108-109). Actual position of the living entity it is (indistinct—microphone feedback problem) Don't disturb, let it go . . . (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for . . . to come to that transcendental position, without any designation. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, or God. That position is perfect position. And if one keeps himself in that designationless position, always thinking of himself as part and parcel of God, then next life he goes back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After quitting this body he does not come back again to take another material body. He takes spiritual body, or develops a spiritual body, and goes back to home, back to Godhead, which means eternal, blissful life of knowledge. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. We are trying to bring all men—of different dimensions, different division—to come to this position, always thinking of that, "I am part and parcel of God. My real position is to serve God." Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. The business of the finger is to serve the body. So long it is in normal condition, the finger is meant for serving the body. When the finger is painful, or in abnormal condition, it cannot serve the body. Similarly, the living entity, being part and parcel of God, when we cannot serve God, that is his abnormal condition. And when he serves God, that is his normal condition. That is designationless position. That is our program. Dr. Ware: That's very interesting. To my mind the nearest approach in the Christian religion is the Unitarian position, which I don't know if you have studied. Prabhupāda: Christian religion is practically . . . from the name it appears, Christian and "Kṛṣṇian." Original word of this "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christo." Dr. Ware: "Anointed." Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Ware: "Anointed." Prabhupāda: Yes. This "Christa" is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ware: From the Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṭa is the popular word for Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is always anointed with tilaka . We follow this tilaka , Kṛṣṇa, anointed with the sandal pulp. So, so far I think, there is some very nearest relationship with this Christian and "Kṛṣṇian". Kṛṣṭa means love, love of Godhead, or love. We are preaching also the same philosophy. Try to . . . not try, the love of Kṛṣṇa is there in everyone's heart, but it is covered. And being covered, it is misplaced. We are loving our society, loving this body, loving our family, loving our kinsmen or loving internationally human society. But this love is actually perverted reflection of real love of God. Because the love is not placed in the real place, therefore we are being frustrated in love. Just like in our country Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very much. But at the last moment the countrymen shot him down. He was shot down by his own countrymen. The love was paid by shooting him, and he lost his life. There are many instances. Dr. Ware: Socrates, Christ. Plenty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So here, the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree, it is simply a waste of time. If you pour water on the root, then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach, immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your . . . automatically your love is distributed to everyone, every entity. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country . . . just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians, they put their love in God, there will be no more fighting. *Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first*-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God. And as soon he becomes a lover of God . . . just like I am Indian, but I have come to Western country to teach love of God. It is not that I am satisfied only in myself that, "I love God—that's all right," but due to my love to God I love others also, because I am trying to teach them to love God. The same philosophy. So if people take seriously this movement, how to love God, then human society will be perfect. Dr. Ware: May I suggest you've already made one contribution from India, which is almost the antithesis, and corroborate your suggestion about pouring water on the root. We do get leaves from India. We pour water on them, and we make that delicious drink, tea, which is one of those drinks which are used for inculcating the brotherhood of man. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But do you think it is natural to pour water on the leaves? Dr. Ware: Well, why not then? That for leaves, water's natural. Prabhupāda: No. You practically you see it is—water on the leave, but you don't water on the root, it will dry up. If you put food on your nose, on your eyes, the eyes will be blind and the nostril will be suffocated. But if you put in the proper place, in the stomach, the energy will be distributed. Dr. Ware: You know that's just an analogy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is natural. Similarly, if God is the root of everything, as we understand from Vedānta*-sūtra . . . God means the original root of everything: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The description of Absolute Truth, or God, is there in the Vedānta-sūtra . That first aphorism is, "What is God?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā —inquiry about God. The next aphorism is, "God is that which is the root of everything, from which everything emanates." That is the perfect definition of God, "the origin of everything." So the same example in God, that the root is the origin of the whole tree. Dr. Ware: The seed is the origin of the whole tree, if I may say. Prabhupāda: How you can be origin, because you are the effect? Śyāmasundara: The seed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The seed. *Prabhupāda: The seed. Yes, seed. The seed is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10): "Everything that is living, the root, or the seed, I am." God says. The seed is God. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām . Just like the rose tree, it has got a seed, but where from this seed comes? (guests entering room) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . give him another . . . (indistinct) *Seed, original seed is God. Your theory of seed is very nice, but the original seed of everything is God, the cause of all causes. In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is said: Kāraṇam . Kāraṇa means cause, cause of all causes, seed of all seeds. There are different seeds. Dr. Ware: Causa causam. Prabhupāda: Ah, cause of all causes. Śyāmasundara: That's Latin? Dr. Ware: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's similar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Ware: A Latin legal phrase: causa causam , the cause of the cause. *Prabhupāda: I see. So God is cause of all causes. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is explicitly said: "I am the original source of everything. Everything is emanating from Me." Iti matvā , "understanding like this," budhā . Budhā means those who are conversant, thoroughly in knowledge. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva samanvitāḥ , in ecstasy, "Oh, here is the original cause of all causes." So in this way those who are advanced in knowledge, budhā , they engage themself in the service of the original cause of all causes. He's the cause of all causes, but He has no cause. That is God. Anādir ādir govindam . He has no cause, but He's the cause of all life. That is God. Just like I am the effect; *my father is the cause. Similarly, my grandfather is the cause of my father. My grandfather is the effect of the cause great*-grandfather. You go on searching out, searching out. So when you find out the original cause, that is God. That is the definition of God. Mensa Member: Do you . . . (indistinct) . . . prime mover argument is who is the prime mover? What is the logical necessity for a first cause? Would you agree with that? Dr. Ware: Well, I think it's inherent in your definition of something that's omnipotent that it's very like saying it's necessary to have no beginning in order to have no end. It's really a concept. Whether it exists or not it doesn't matter. Mensa Member: Yes. Then even negatives imply limitation. If something has only positive attributes, it's limited if you exclude negative attributes. Or is that just a . . . Dr. Ware: Well no, if something has all attributes, we only cause, or call them to be caused, positive or negative because we have a tendency to want to think in terms of dichotomies, "good" and "bad," whereas really, if you're a scientist, you say: "This exists." It's only when morals come in, you say some things are good and some things are bad, and you start making antinomies. Really, your Godhead would contain all those things, and to Him there's no such thing as good or evil, but to Him they are all of value. It's man who saw the good and evil. Mensa Member: I wasn't particularly thinking of the good and evil value. I was simply thinking of negative attributes. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sorry, I don't know quite what you mean. Unless you define the negative attribute, I'm not quite sure what it is. Mensa Member: Not beginning. Dr. Ware: Well that, with respect, I think, doesn't really follow, because there're some things that don't have opposites or negatives, although (in) nature. This is what I say, that there are certain categories of things to which if somebody says: "Now what's the opposite of that?" you'd have to say: "There isn't an opposite," because it isn't the sort of thing to have an opposite. Mensa Member: So you wouldn't accept the prime mover either? Dr. Ware: Well, it's not an argument; it's a postulate. I don't accept it. I mean, you have to accept it if you're going to . . . you know the total . . . (indistinct) . . . so to speak. You can't have it half way. Prabhupāda: This word "positive" and "negative" . . . just like the sun—the backside is the negative and the front side is the positive, light and darkness. Dr. Ware: Well the sun doesn't have a backside of darkness. It's light all round. Prabhupāda: I mean to say, in relationship with the sun, the planet, the planet in the front side there is light. In the backside there is darkness. But the darkness is the effect of the light. Where the light is absent there is darkness. Dr. Ware: Only to an observer. If there's no observer there, there's no difference between light and dark. Prabhupāda: No, this is the actual position. Just like this is sun, but this side is light, this side is darkness. So light and darkness, two opposite elements. But it is due to the same cause. Absence of light is darkness, and presence of light is light. Dr. Ware: Or I say there are some things that have those dichotomies and others don't. Prabhupāda: So actually the cause is one, but in different position, one side is light, one side is darkness. Therefore the cause cannot be different. The cause is one. But under different position it appears, "This is light," "This is darkness." So bad, which you consider bad, that is also caused by the Supreme Cause. In the Supreme there is no good or bad. Everything is absolute. Just like the sun is always light, but, in relationship with sun, the planets, one side is dark, one side is light. So black means that is also caused by the light, absence of light—that is black, dark. Dr. Ware: With respect, it's not caused by the light. It's the absence of light. Prabhupāda: Absence, that I'm saying. It is also, indirectly, the cause is the light. Dr. Ware: No, because your illustration you gave of the light of the sun falling on one side and making that light and the other side dark, but you can also have a body which is in the complete absence of any light anyway, so there won't be any differentiation. Prabhupāda: No. There is light. The light is now visible. Light is there. Just like we say that our relationship with God is there. One is conscious; *another is unconscious. Otherwise, God consciousness is there. Therefore any process that awakens that consciousness, that is perfect process. The consciousness is there. That is stated in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , an authorized book. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). This God consciousness is not something artificial. The God consciousness is there. Just like these European boys and girls, they're now devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Not that artificially we have imposed this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness was there. By . . . under certain process of treatment that has been awakened. Dr. Ware: That's why I think it's better to accept that as it is, rather than make analogies, which are dangerous. Prabhupāda: I may make analogy or not analogy, but the thing is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but it is covered. As soon as its covering is taken away—it is uncovered—the original position comes out. Śyāmasundara: I believe he made one observation which is rather in the British tradition, I believe, where he said that if there was no observer, then there would be no such thing as light and darkness. Dr. Ware: Yes, light and dark are subjective reactions. Really, the scientists would say there are wave lengths of a certain type in one part of the universe and in the other they're absent. But until you have an observer, you can't notice that. Mensa Member: But the planet would still be there . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Well, Samuel Johnson quite rightly refuted that by taking . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually, there is no darkness. Take it sun as, it is whole. There is no darkness and everything is in sunshine. All the planets, they are rotating in sunshine. So under certain condition, one part is becoming dark, another part is light. But actually the whole universe is full with sunshine. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma ( Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). That is the exact definition given in Sanskrit: everything is light, brahma . Mensa Member: That's another postulate. Dr. Ware: You can build any theory according to the number of postulates you're willing to accept which cannot be analyzed, including the basis of science, that the atom, as originally thought of by Theocritus and others, is this thing that you cannot go beyond and cap down . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying with your philosophy or your theology that you go down until you can find nothing, except that you say that causa causam , and then you build back again from that. But that's what I was saying earlier on: the . . . (indistinct) . . . is very close to the Unitarian position in Christianity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: Far more acceptable to every type of Christian than any of the specific creeds or sects, you know, the Church of England, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, every other form of prophecy. And you have that greater universality . . . (indistinct) . . . and you've got Tibetans who will accept your basis in the same way as a Westerner could. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Ware: A Tibetan could accept your position. Prabhupāda: Tiberian? Tibetians? What is their philosophy? Dr. Ware: You've heard of the Dalai Lama? Prabhupāda: Yes. What does he say? Dr. Ware: Well, his position would be the same as yours, wouldn't it? In religion? Mensa Member: You mean the Tibetan Buddhist attitude towards the Godhead is the same as the Kṛṣṇas? Dr. Ware: Yes. They have that same basis. Prabhupāda: But so far we know, that Buddhists, they do not believe in God, existence of God. Dr. Ware: No. They believe in this existence of a "Goddess" if you like. Mensa Member: It's very subjective. The Buddhist point of view in general seems to be very much that of the nineteenth century English rationalist, the agnostic, in its visual sense. Dr. Ware: That's why I say the Unitarian comes closest to it. Śyāmasundara: What is that? Mensa Member: Well, the fact that a Godhead is . . . is impossible to comprehend. It maybe or may not be in very brief terms. Dr. Ware: But if you accept its existence, then it's present in everybody. Which is exactly what you're saying. Whether they utilize it, whether, as you call it, uncovered, or to the degree of which they are conscious of it, is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of consciousness, development of consciousness. Dr. Ware: That's where your line, I think, is so very good in saying that the real evolution of man's mind has been his ability to produce more and more of the functions of whatever the mind may be. But the mind is just as indefinable as God. We know what the brain is, but we don't know what the mind is. Yet more and more of it under conscious control instead of being irrationally eruptive. *Prabhupāda: But there is a summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante , jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise, he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution. That is real evolution. That evolution will go on. But when it comes to this summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is the cause of all causes. That is the final realization. Unless one comes to that point, he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence. Śyāmasundara: How does our philosophy define mind and intelligence? Prabhupāda: Mind is instrument. The mind's position is accepting and rejecting. And intellect helps the mind what to reject and what to accept. And that intelligence is of the soul. That ground of intelligence is the soul. First of all bodily concept is gross life, ordinary, like animals, they do not know except the body. Higher than bodily concept of life, the exercise of the mind, mental speculation. And that mental speculation is adjusted by intelligence, and that intelligence belongs to the soul. Therefore soul is the ultimate, and soul is the part and parcel of God. Therefore God is the supreme. *So the mental speculation or the evolution of mental exercise, when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one realizes, "God is everything," that mahātmā , that great soul, is very rare. That is the statement in Bhagavad*-gītā . Mahātmā means whose mind is great. The mind is great. He's not thinking ordinary things; *he's thinking of greater subject matter. They are called mahātmā , broader minded, broad*-minded. Dr. Ware: Do you differentiate, as Jung would do, it's only a matter of attempting to comprehend the differences . . . (indistinct) . . . of things, the difference between thinking and feeling as rational functions? Prabhupāda: That is the function of the mind—thinking, feeling and willing. Psychological activity. Dr. Ware: Do you differentiate them separately? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Ware: And intuition as well? Prabhupāda: Saṅkalpa , vikalpa . This is, in Sanskrit it is called saṅkalpa , vikalpa , or accepting and rejecting. That is mind's function. I think something, and again I reject it. Dr. Ware: Well, you also react, too. Prabhupāda: You can say in any language, but the function of the mind is flickering. Just like when Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa to train the mind by meditation, by yoga system, he said that "Kṛṣṇa, it is very difficult for me." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34). "My mind is very," I mean to say, "agitated. I think to control the mind is as impossible as the controlling the wind." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi ba . . . vāyor iva suduṣkaram : "And it is very difficult to . . . (indistinct) . . . high wind, and if you want to control it, as it is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, I think the activities of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, to control that is very difficult for me." So actually that is the position. So long we shall be on the mental platform there will be no fixity of conclusion. That is not possible. We have to accept something for the time being, then again reject it. Therefore all mental speculators differ. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A philosopher is not philosopher until he differs from other philosophers. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam . Unless you place a different thesis, he will not be accepted as a good philosopher. Dr. Ware: There it differs from science. Because if science is actually correct, it can only be one. Prabhupāda: But philosophy is taken as the science of sciences. Dr. Ware: Theology used to be that. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: It shows a misconception of the word science. Prabhupāda: So far I remember—I was also a student of philosophy—Dr. Urquhart, he said the philosophy is science of sciences. The science, their, I mean, theory begins from philosophy. Philosophy is the science of sciences. But according to Vedic version, a philosopher is not a philosopher if he has not a different opinion from another philosopher. Nasau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam . Therefore, through the philosopher you cannot come to the right conclusion. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . If you simply go on arguing, that will also not help you. If you simply read scriptures, that will also not help you. Because there are different scriptures. Bible is different from *Vedas* , and *Vedas* is different from Koran. So tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), by argument you cannot come to the conclusion. By simply reading scriptures you cannot come to the conclusion. By following the philosophers you cannot come to the conclusion. Therefore the truth is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ . It is kept very confidential. Then how to have it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186): you have to follow the great personalities who have actually realized God. That is the conclusion. Dr. Ware: The trouble is that you only have the opportunity of hearing or reading what somebody else has said what they have said. So you're back again on the trouble of diversity of observation and opinion. *Prabhupāda: No. So far we are concerned, we are receiving knowledge directly from God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : It is accepted, spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore if you take conclusion from the speeches delivered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is fact. That is very easy authority. Just like the other day I was explaining to Mr. Mathew that, "You are searching after who is your father, but if you simply ask your mother, 'Who is my father?' the truth is immediately disclosed." Immediately. Dr. Ware: Being a lawyer, I would say that that doesn't necessarily follow. Prabhupāda: Why? Dr. Ware: Well, it's a wise woman sometimes who knows who's the father . . . Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune if your mother cheats you. That's a different thing. That's different. We are expecting mother will not cheat us. Dr. Ware: Some of them don't know! Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Suppose you are a lawyer. I put my faith in you, but if you cheat me I lose the case. That is another thing. Dr. Ware: Sometimes it's just honest ignorance. Prabhupāda: No. Generally mother is honest. If one is unfortunate, he has got a mother like that, cheated. Generally expected, a mother is honest. Mother loves his (her) child, he (she) gives the good information. That is mother's position. But if someone has got a different mother, that's . . . The same thing can be applicable to you also. You are lawyer. Everyone depends on you, but if you conduct a case in a different way just to make profit to other party, you can do that; that is my misfortune. I have to depend on you for conducting the case. I have no other means. Dr. Ware: And the poor lawyer has to depend upon the other person in telling him what is supposed to be the true facts. Prabhupāda: But my position is, as soon as I appoint my lawyer, I'll have to depend fully on you. I cannot do anything else. Whatever you advise me, I have to do that. Dr. Ware: Yes, but whatever you told me depends upon what advice I give to you. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But, as you say, the mother gives misinformation. Similarly, if you misguide me, that you can do. But I will have to depend on you. Dr. Ware: But not deliberately. A lot of people don't know that that information is wrong. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes it is done deliberately. Sometimes it is done deliberately, because everyone in this material world is imperfect. Therefore there is tendency of cheating. That is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul—he becomes mistaken, he becomes illusioned, he cheats and his senses are imperfect. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sorry, I think you're using the word "cheat" in a much broader sense. We would use "cheat" as conscious mistake, as opposed to a person who doesn't realize that what he says doesn't happen to be true. Prabhupāda: No, no, conscious . . . suppose you think it is right but it is wrong. That is also cheating. Without knowing the thing perfectly well, if you deliver your knowledge to somebody, that's cheating. Dr. Ware: Well, I think that's being a bit hard. When a person is not . . . if he's tried his best to do something and he doesn't intend to mislead, to call that cheating is a bit hard. Prabhupāda: No, even if not intend, but if you misguide some way or other without sufficient knowledge, that is also cheating. Dr. Ware: Well, we would say, using the English language properly, that's a misuse of the word. Prabhupāda: But, generally, if I'm not in perfect knowledge, if I guide you, that is, according to Vedic version, that is cheating. You must be confident of the knowledge perfectly. Then if you deliver that knowledge, that is right. Just like our position is that we say what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa is God, so we say what Kṛṣṇa says. We don't say anything which does not Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Therefore you are confident that we are delivering the right message. We don't manufacture our own philosophy or words. We simply say: "Kṛṣṇa says, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa, God, says that, 'You simply surrender unto Me, I take charge of you.' " We are preaching the same philosophy, that you surrender to God and you'll become happy, because God takes charge of you. We don't manufacture our word. That is not cheating. Dr. Ware: Yes. But this comes back to what you were saying earlier on. You were saying it isn't necessary or sufficient to read the scriptures. Well if, as you just told me, you say what Kṛṣṇa has said, well then if I could find . . . Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa has said, that is not scripture. Dr. Ware: No, but if it's written somewhere, I can read that; I don't need anybody else to tell me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it is accepted by the great ācāryas that He's God, then there is no doubt. If Kṛṣṇa is accepted God by all the ācāryas , bona fide ācāryas , authorities . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, I think what Prabhupāda is saying is that a spiritual master is requisite in order to transmit knowledge—even though it may be revealed in the scriptures to the student—according to the time and place. Just like someone may be able to read in a book about how to perform a brain operation, but unless there's a master there to transmit that knowledge into reality, it's useless; it can't be performed. Dr. Ware: That merely means, you might say, if you're going to be very thorough and precise, that the . . . it could be explained in greater detail, but it's easier to do it with a master. But you can learn a foreign language by reading a book, although it's much easier if you're taught. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here is the medicine, diabetic. So I have accepted this medicine through a bona fide doctor. Although it is meant for diabetes, I have not accepted this medicine, neither it is advised that this medicine should be accepted by a bona fide physician, so I cannot see properly whether it is good for me. But when the physician, qualified physician, says: "Yes, it is bona fide. You can use it in this way," that is nice. Mensa Member: Coming back to your previous point, if he made a mistake and it's the wrong medicine, would you say he cheated you? Is that the point you were getting at? Dr. Ware: This is what worried me. Śyāmasundara: Yes, because if he purports to be a physician . . . Mensa Member: No, he is a physician, and he makes a mistake, a healthy, genuine mistake. Prabhupāda: Therefore we say we have to receive knowledge from a person who does not commit any mistake. That is our proposition. Dr. Ware: Well, that would be going like God. If you define it that way, you're . . . (indistinct) . . . aren't you? Mensa Member: That does seem a bit . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I said . . . Śyāmasundara: This can be proven. This can be tested. If someone's cheating or not cheating can be tested on a factual basis. Similarly, this science can be tested . . . Prabhupāda: Observation and experiment. Śyāmasundara: Whether it has effect, a good effect, or it has a bad effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is coming down from Kṛṣṇa through the chain of disciplic succession. So if it is actually given in the exact definition, that process, it is effective. And it is actually being experienced that it is effective. Śyāmasundara: Just like this medicine . . . *Dr. Ware: Which may not, unfortunately . . . this is the danger of analogy. This medicine may work in ninety*-nine cases out of a hundred, and in the hundredth one it could kill the poor chap. Now you can't say that the physician was cheating in prescribing it for the hundredth chap, because he just didn't know. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . on the other hand, the other medicine might have worked. Dr. Ware: Hmm. Mensa Member: It is very dangerous. Analogy's awfully dangerous. Dr. Ware: But then some people have to have a concrete example, or they haven't any . . . (indistinct) . . . it's when you analyze the analogy that you can see it's difficult . . . Prabhupāda: No, analogy, of course, it is not always the perfect method. Analogy means the greatest number of similar points. That is analogy. Perfection of analogy is there when there is the greater number of similar points. But we give sometimes the analogy as we understand it. But so far our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no need of analogy. It is accepted as truth, and Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and whatever He says is truth. There is no mistake, and if we carry that message, there is no mistake. Dr. Ware: In other words, Kṛṣṇa is the voice of your God, then. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God Himself. That is accepted. We accept Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means the controller. Just like here there are controllers, but here any controller is controlled by another controller. But param īśvara , God means who has no other controller. He's the supreme controller. That is described in the Brahma*-saṁhitā : īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇa . He's the supreme controller. Here, any controller, he's controlling . . . just like this physician. He has learned his medical science from another physician, another physician, another physician. So we are not the supreme physician or supreme controller. Dr. Ware: May I give you an example of the fallacy there, is that Sir Alexander Fleming didn't learn his curative, antibiotics, from any other person; he discovered them by natural scientific methods of observation and inference and experiment. Prabhupāda: But experimental knowledge of scientific handling must have . . . he have learned from somebody else. Dr. Ware: That's a different thing. Prabhupāda: Therefore he has a teacher. You cannot say that . . . or he has taken the techniques of other scientists and he has experimented in the laboratory appliances. That is . . . he cannot say that he has . . . he invented the laboratory appliances. Dr. Ware: No, but his power of observation was important. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is all right. Dr. Ware: That's in him, and nobody else. Prabhupāda: But he, he has taken help from other scientists' method. Śyāmasundara: In other words, everyone operates under a certain set of restrictions, controls, that are not of their own choosing. Everyone is in that category. They may think, "I am the controller of my own destiny," but actually they are being controlled on every side. Dr. Ware: That's so. But it's only when they break out from that control by, let's say, making an observation or having an intuition that isn't inherent in the system of control in which they've been brought up that they make an advance of any sort. You see, people with . . . I always give this example of Sir Alexander Fleming and Florey and others. People have been trained that dirty petri dishes should be thrown away, because they're moldy, they will interfere with the experiment. This happens time again. Whereas a man suddenly thinks, "I will have a look at this. I'll ignore that." He breaks away from this control. Mensa Member: It wasn't anything new, simply a rearrangement of current, existing data. Dr. Ware: Nobody'd ever . . . they were controlled to reject it. This is what so often happens. Perry Mason is a wonderful example of that—a person who always picks out something that's been rejected in his . . . his celebrated works. Mensa Member: I don't know if Perry Mason is . . . Dr. Ware: Oh, Perry Mason is a very popular courtroom . . . as they say, or trial lawyer, as they call it in America. A person called Erle Stanley Gardner has written a large number of books . . . Śyāmasundara: But a person's knowledge in the material world will always be imperfect. No matter how much he may advance in scientific knowledge, he'll never be able to solve the problems of birth, death, disease and old age. Dr. Ware: Yes. But I mean the Americans, I believe, they would say, "Of course, but so what? You can live without a country." If you start worrying about whether you'll ever be able to comprehend the intellect, you will really not get through the day. Śyāmasundara: But the goal of life, being to become satisfied with my life, is not meant in that way. Dr. Ware: Oh, I agree that to be satisfied with life is to cut down your desire for omniscience; to be satisfied that you can only hope to do quite not . . . not . . . not all of the things you'd like to do, to comprehend quite not . . . not all of the things that are possible. If you are content with that, you may be content to play. Otherwise you'll be one of these dreadful people that become paranoics. Because the world only pressures you into . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Contentment . . . the death is there. If I, somehow or other, make a compromise, that is different thing. But I don't like to die. There is old age. I don't want to be old, but if I make a compromise, that is a different thing. But my desire is not to become old, not to become attacked by disease, not to die. These are my desires. So I can make some compromise, being unable to solve the problems. That is a different thing. But these are the problems. These are the problems. Dr. Ware: It was once rather well put by some woman who said to Mr. Carlyle, who's in a way of being a philosopher. "You know, Mr. Carlyle, I accept the universe." He said: "Madam, you'd better." This is the beginning of, you might say, reason. Prabhupāda: There are sentiments, like Cowper said: "England, I love you with all thy fault." That is another thing. That is a compromise. Dr. Ware: The difficulty is, in any form of discussion like this, it's very fascinating, but it does show the limitations of transmission of feelings and ideas and all those complicated things by a simple verbal process, this is the real problem. Mensa Member: I agree entirely. Zen immediately comes to mind, where the problem's recognized, immediately acted on, and it's admitted that there's an impossibility of transmission by an individual. Dr. Ware: This is where you can't get a feeling across by writing a textbook of it. I think . . . Prabhupāda: No. One thing is that somebody's concluding that to solve this problem—birth, death, old age, disease—is impossibility. That is one school. Another school, if they're following then there is possibility of control over the birth, death, old age and disease. So why not this school, who does not say there is impossible? No, there is possible. Just like we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), that, "Anyone who understands Me thoroughly, he, after quitting this body, no more accept this material body but comes to Me." Now, so long I accept this material body these problems are there—birth, death, old age and disease. Then if I don't accept this material body, then these problems are solved immediately. Dr. Ware: This is what they call "solution by denial." Prabhupāda: It is not called solution. It is a fact, because it is followed . . . then you have come to the original position, to follow the mahājanas. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Our thought is guided by that mahājana . We accept the mahājanas , the great personalities who have achieved success. We follow. *Dr. Ware: "Let us now praise famous men and our fathers who beget us," as they oddly enough seem always to be prize*-giving girls school. But I've never been able to understand why. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that these personalities have to be in a living form, not just in the past. But they live in the form of a spiritual master who's there to guide us personally—not just praise someone in the past. Unless this process is transmitted in a human form personally, it's not . . . Prabhupāda: That is the process in the material world also. You are lawyer because you have studied laws under some big lawyer. So the process is coming. Dr. Ware: I assure you, Swami, that the reverse was true. I went to Oxford. I sat at the feet, as we would put it, of one of the most tiresome men I ever met in my life. He gave me an extraordinary distaste for the law. Any law I've learnt has had to be learned the hard way by, you know, looking at statutes, looking at cases. So I regret to say that I have my own personal experiences . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is of course later on; in the beginning you are a student of a lawyer. Mensa Member: That's used for analogy, because some people have gone on . . . (indistinct) . . . no matter who they are. Dr. Ware: Yah. Yah. Well this is the only thing, "Seek and ye shall find, or be still and ye shall know." I think this is the essential feature that you've been saying is that, really, this grace comes to anybody if they're only willing to expect it. It's inherently there. Mensa Member: With respect . . . (indistinct) . . . among many other people, prove that it's absolutely impossible to establish a rational, umm, a rational grounding for religion. In other words, trying to logically prove axioms is logically impossible. Dr. Ware: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . not necessary. Śyāmasundara: But by verbalizing this philosophy of the Absolute, it trains the student in accepting the inexperience . . . that which is only experienced, by leading them to that point. But certainly we have to have some verbal confirmation of this truth. Dr. Ware: Well some people, oddly enough, don't need it. Some very simple people can have a very true spiritual life without ever needing to verbalize it, usually because they had—this is where I think it's perfectly correct—they have followed some father figure or mother figure, and you know, absorbed . . . Śyāmasundara: Just like my child. Dr. Ware: Yes. Śyāmasundara: She's to that point without having any rational knowledge. Mensa Member: There's some . . . (indistinct) . . . simple people also . . . (indistinct) . . . people like Blake, for example, or Buddha . . . (indistinct) . . . simple person. It's not this sort of faith, only childlike faith—it's often found in simple people. Dr. Ware: It certainly is easier for them, though. It's easier for the simple person, because he doesn't have all these mental, complicated doubts and, you know, arguments with himself. Mensa Member: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's said that as one progresses more and more in spiritual life he becomes simpler and more innocent. But in the beginning he may have had to comprehend it on some verbal level in order to . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: I often used to say to my students that I've got to remember that if anything in life to realize the difference between simple and complicated, which is objective, and easy and difficult, which is subjective. In other words, sometimes a simple thing may be terribly difficult for a person to get hold of, whereas complicated things people find quite easy. Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority. Dr. Ware: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same . . . to some people it comes terribly easily. Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority. Dr. Ware: You then reject the idea of a fear of God. Prabhupāda: No, I don't reject. The thing is that perfect knowledge is received from the authority which . . . beyond the material defects. Dr. Ware: No, what I mean is, fear is not necessary for learning from an authoritarian source. Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect. Śyāmasundara: He's saying that you don't need to necessarily have to fear the authority before you accept him. Prabhupāda: There's no question of fearing. There's no question of fearing. Dr. Ware: That's what I thought. You don't acce . . . that doesn't come in at all. Prabhupāda: No. No. It is out of love, out of affection, the reciprocation. Dr. Ware: Well, that's what I think very often, that it is fear that prevents people from accepting. Prabhupāda: No. No. Why? Mensa Member: That's true. Śyāmasundara: He said that sometimes someone may fear authority. That prevents them. Prabhupāda: Of course, when you accept the . . . that is not fear; that is obedience, respect. Respect. That's not fear. Just like my students—they are not fearful of me. Because I came from India, so what business they have got to be afraid of me? Neither I'm very . . . a greater man, but they receive the philosophy, they understand the philosophy; therefore they have got respect for me. The teacher should be offered the due respect. That is not fear. That is not out of fear; it's out of love. Dr. Ware: I was saying that fear prevents it. Prabhupāda: No. There's no prevention. There's no fear, because they are quite at liberty to ask me question, and they're asking and the answer is there. I receive so many letters daily. So there's no . . . they are not afraid of me. But, out of affection, they offer respect. Dr. Ware: May I make one strange statement that I think it is rather true of the present world? People are always afraid of fear and love. It's almost as though it's something rather sissy or, you know, to get so mixed up with sentimentality. Mensa Member: I don't know what it is rather than fear. Dr. Ware: Well, I mean . . . if you don't know . . . if I were afraid of you because of absolute knowledge or . . . Mensa Member: Yah. Dr. Ware: . . . terrified of the unknown. Mensa Member: That's very true. That's why plan children and such like and things like the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement who not only profess . . . (indistinct) . . . scare into lots of people. Prabhupāda: Just like the child is afraid of the father. There is affection. "My father is displeased if I do . . . Father has said, 'Don't touch this,' so I don't touch. My father has . . ." So that fear and affection, both is there. It is not simply that he is afraid of his father, but the affection is there. So to become obedient to the authority, there is a tinge of fear also, but that is based on affection. That is not actually . . . Śyāmasundara: They were saying also that in this age, particularly now, there is a great fear of loving someone or something on the part of the large population. They think that by . . . Prabhupāda: There is no real love. There is expectation of being frustrated in love. Dr. Ware: Rebuffed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rebuffed. So therefore they're . . . Dr. Ware: Terrified, actually. *Prabhupāda: So because everything in this material world is perverted reflection, therefore we sometimes love somebody and we become frustrated. So therefore others see that, "This man has loved that girl and he's now frustrated. Oh, why shall I love?" That is due to frustration. But there is a perfectional stage. There is a perfectional stage, therefore we say it is perverted reflection. Just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa—that is the perfectional stage of love. Rādhārāṇī is a young girl and Kṛṣṇa is a young boy. There is love. So originally this love between young boy and girl is there, but that is in perfect stage. Here, in this material world, the same thing is pervertedly reflected. Therefore it is imperfect. So we have come to the perfectional stage, not be afraid and give it up—frustration. But love is there. But there is a perfectional stage of love. We have to learn that. Dr. Ware: The Greeks call it agape , as opposed to the old, other form of eros . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lust and . . . eros , lust. Agape is pure love, transcendental love. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to bring everything to the perfectional stage. The others, they're, out of frustration, they want to stop all activity. That is voidism—to stop all this activity. Buddha philosophy is more or less based on this voidism: make everything null and void—no more activities, no more love. We don't say. Just like you cannot see properly because our eyes are diseased. To cure the disease, and then you see properly. And other says, "All right, pluck it out. The disease in the eye, take away." That is not very good proposition. We say that make treatment to make the eyes to see properly. Remedy problem. *Our proposition is, sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat*-paratvena (CC Madhya 19.170). We simply cleanse the process. The seeing process we cleanse. We don't pluck out the eyes out of frustration: don't see; make everything void. No. We don't say that, because there is no void; it is simply frustration. There is variety, nice variety, spiritual variety. We are bringing people to that position. Dr. Ware: I must say that's very interesting. *Mensa Member: Can I ask one last question? The Bhagavad*-gītā —do you accept that as historically . . . an historical fact? Prabhupāda: Truth is historical fact is. *Śyāmasundara: Bhagavad*-gītā —did it take place? There was a battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is historical. *Mahābhārata* . *Mahābhārata* means the history of Greater India. Greater India. *Mahābhārata* . Dr. Ware: *Mahābhārata* . Prabhupāda: This *Mahābhārata* means . . . mahā means greater. Formerly, five thousand years ago, the whole planet was called Bhārata, India. India it is now called. Actually the name is Bhārata. Bhārata is the name given after the reign of Mahārāja . . . one King Bharata. He was the ruler, emperor, of the whole world. After his name this planet is called Bhārata, this whole planet. *Mahābhārata . Mahābhārata is Greater India or Greater Bhārata. The headquarter was in India, but it was greater, according to Mahābhārata history, and this Bhagavad*-gītā is given there in the Mahābhārata . Therefore it is history. And actually it is historical, because the battlefield is still existing . . . Dr. Ware: In the mind . . . Śyāmasundara: No, it's there, Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra, battlefield. Dr. Ware: Oh, I'm sorry, that's the place . . . (indistinct) . . . I thought you meant the battle was still on. *Prabhupāda: No. Battlefield, where the battle was fought, took place, that is still there. There is a railway station, Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is still dharmakṣetra , a religious place. People go for pilgrimage, and in the Vedas also it is stated that kuru*-kṣetre dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . you perform religious rituals in Kurukṣetra. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). It is fact, historical fact. It is not imagination. But many commentators have taken as imagination, therefore they are misled. It is historical. Mensa Member: Well, will you . . . can you take the central road, Dr. Ware? Dr. Ware: I would not need a road if I took it . . . (indistinct) . . . you have been very generous with your time Śyāmasundara: You may ask more questions if you like. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sure there are other people who, I mean to say, wanted to have the opportunity discussing matters. Mensa Member: Next time the Swami's in England, perhaps we can . . . Mensa members can . . . (indistinct) . . . in comparative religion could be . . . Dr. Ware: Indeed, I think that would be very . . . and also it would be very interesting if you would care to take our test. Śyāmasundara: Test? Dr. Ware: Yes. The entrance qualification. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) What kind of questions? Is it scientific? Dr. Ware: No. Just simple intelligence, that's all. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . an I.Q. test. Dr. Ware: . . . that's all. Call it test, but it's something; we've got nothing better at the moment. Prabhupāda: We think our activities above intelligence. Spiritual. Spiritual. Dr. Ware: That's quite different. Prabhupāda: Because above the mind . . . above the body there is mind; above the mind there is intelligence, and above the intelligence there is soul, and above the soul there is God. So we are talking of relationship between God and the soul. It is above body, mind and intelligence. Dr. Ware: That's what interests me. One has this hierarchical or superior attitude even in the statement you've just made, that things, you know, about more contained which is what I feel is easier. Prabhupāda: Because we take from God there is no mistake. There's no mistake. Otherwise He cannot be God. Dr. Ware: I mean this is just unnecessary. It is just tautological. But since this is in your definition of God, you don't have to go any farther. Prabhupāda: But God means He's above mistake, Dr. Ware: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . above the illusion, above cheating, above imperfection. This is God. Śyāmasundara: There's a central premise that everything is simultaneously one and different. Just like flowers—there are many flowers, roses, but within the flowers there is variety. Mensa Member: But still it raises the danger of another . . . (indistinct) . . . it really does. This is a very . . . (indistinct) . . . you're trying to make, but it's impossible to talk about physics in the language of chemistry. It's impossible. So when . . . Śyāmasundara: So when he says there's a gradation, that we see gradation, that the soul is higher than the body, this is also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Soul is higher than the body, mind and intelligence. Dr. Ware: Yes. But that is only because we've learned, I think, when we were small to look up to higher people . . . Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . on each side of them and in the middle, on the other side, before and after . . . Dr. Ware: This is the . . . you see, unconsciously you grow up with all these sort of prejudices, which are necessary. You've got to have some sort of time scale, you've got to have some sort of measuring scale, and therefore you tend to look up, and therefore you think highly of more important . . . (indistinct) . . . you talk about high position, you don't think of chaps sitting on the fence . . . Śyāmasundara: Inherently you'll find the rose is better than the daisy. Dr. Ware: No. Some people might prefer the daisy. Śyāmasundara: But the qualities are there, inherent in the rose, which are preferable to those of the daisy. Dr. Ware: Why? Tell me why. I mean, you haven't given me any reason for saying it is better. Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: The rose has nice scent. It appears . . . Prabhupāda: . . . beautiful. Śyāmasundara: . . . beautiful. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . be subjective . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: And you see, a lot of people would like a red rose, because that has a symbolism to it. Why have a yellow rose? It must have a sort of subjective reaction. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's got a chromatic wavelength. Prabhupāda: So that is a cause. That means there is a cause. We have to accept the cause. So that cause, we go further till we find out the cause of all causes. Dr. Ware: You see, what worries me, Swami, is that there is two ways of making sure you live, each containing this necessity of eating. Now, some people eat . . . (indistinct) . . . they digest it, they live perfectly healthily. They know nothing about carbohydrates, proteins and fats. They know nothing about saliva. They know nothing about enzymes or digestion, and they live quite satisfactory lives. Other people start worrying about whether they've got the right amount of calories, the right amount of vitamins, whether they're taking enough water with the meal or not. One wonders that if you're starting to worry about that, it means somehow you're less perfect than the person who's able to digest quite happily without the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Well, if you say like that, the majority of living entities, they are eating without this knowledge of enzyme and other things. So if you take votes, the votes are greater. Just like human being, a few human beings are interested in analyzing this enzyme. And the human beings are very small quantity. There are 8,400,000 species of life. They're eating with a natural way, and they're quite healthy. Mensa Member: Knowledge of the process is comparatively important. If you want to enjoy it more you don't have to know about enzymes and proteins, you have to know about the right sort of wine and the . . . Śyāmasundara: Enjoyment is the standard. Dr. Ware: And there, what worries me, I was going a stage further, you do tend to find that people who want to understand about digestion are those whose stomachs are not very good. Prabhupāda: Another thing is . . . just like grass, straw. The cows are eating straw and giving the most vitaminous food, milk, full of vitamin A and D. But if you scientifically say that there is, I mean to say, vitamins in grass and straw, then you eat straw and produce. Vitamins is there. Why it is so? Your analysis of enzyme and vitamin, how you can say milk . . . (break) . . . you'll die. Why this law is there? The cow is producing most vitaminous food, milk, by simply eating dry grass and straw. Dr. Ware: No, with respect, Swami, no. By simply imbibing at the same time bacteria which flourish in its intestines and are necessary for it to be able to metabolize this straw. We couldn't metabolize straw . . . Prabhupāda: But you're lacking that bacteria. You're lacking that bacteria. The bacteria which the cows have, you haven't got. Dr. Ware: We've got them, but we kill them. Mensa Member: . . . another analogy. Dr. Ware: Exactly. This is the trouble. It's unwise . . . if you could accept the concept as a whole, there's no need to try and give an analogy. Mensa Member: I don't accept your, um . . . the point you were making when you began that analogy, I think, was that people that do look for spiritual knowledge, in quotes, um, it would appear there was something wrong with them. Dr. Ware: No, no, not always. I say there are some people who obviously . . . if they have to look for it, they haven't got it. The people who've got it don't need to look for it. Mensa Member: Yeah. Resorting to the accursed thing again, some people go to the doctor that are sick and some people aren't sick, are hypochondriacs. Śyāmasundara: It's just like if someone points out to you, for instance, that this material world is based upon sense gratification and everyone is striving to gratify the impulse of their senses, that's a verbalization of a truth which is not apparent in any other way, or it's very difficult to find out in any other way. So suddenly that knowledge awakens one to a higher desire, to attain something higher. So that is the point of verbalization of these things. If we are silent, how will someone be awakened to that truth, that simply by saying this material world spins upon this principle of material sense gratification. That's a truth that you can easily verbalize. Dr. Ware: Well, I think there's a double difference always with these things between the subject and the object. If, in other words, it's objectively necessary to gratify the senses, if you like. In other words, you've got to have diets and things like that, and you've got to breathe, but you can also get a subjective pleasure out of doing that which is different from just doing it automatically. Sometimes we know when we're busy, we just shovel our food down. We don't really have any gratification out of it. We just ha . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. There are four basic principles that Prabhupāda mentioned—eating, sleeping, mating and defending—which are natural for the animals or to the humans. But man is using his propensity, his conscious propensity, to simply enjoy material nature on a more advanced level: to eat better, to sleep more, to have better sex life and so on. It still boils down to that. Everyone is seeking sense pleasure. Prabhupāda: Such propensities are there in animals. Then what makes the difference between animal and man? Dr. Ware: Animals, as far as I know, don't conduct scientific research. Śyāmasundara: What is the point of scientific research? That's the question. Dr. Ware: Because of this feeling of wanting to know. Mensa Member: I wonder what . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: No, no, they've made the observation. I don't think they have the power to . . . Śyāmasundara: Why do scientists make their analysis, and what are the advancements of science used for? What can man use them for? Dr. Ware: Largely, a Freudian would say, to compensate their feeling of inadequacy, of their being not sufficiently treated with empathy and love when they were young. Śyāmasundara: Objectively, seeing is just to gratify the senses. Dr. Ware: Well, Freud said . . . of course, he's the great chap on gratification, and that's where Jung sensibly said: "Ah, that's not sufficient. You've got to have the spiritual side of life as well." He comprises it. Jung got the advantage of being, you might say, a higher stage, to use the words of the Swami, because he's able to contain the lower things like . . . Prabhupāda: The conclusion comes in this way, that to remain animals, scientific animals, that's all. The propensities are the same, sense gratification, but the man is trying to make it scientific. That means to remain animal but become scientific, that's all—scientific animal. Dr. Ware: But at the same time he's a spiritual animal. It's interesting to find that in this twentieth century, science is rather replacing the spirituality. You know, people in the past gave religion an enormous importance, and science was practically unknown. Now they're going the other way around. Prabhupāda: That scientific spirituality, that is advancement more than the animals. Otherwise, if you simply remain on the . . . (indistinct) . . . eating, sleeping, mating and defending scientifically, you remain animal. But when that scientific research goes to the spiritual thing, that is special prerogative of the human. Śyāmasundara: This replacement by science of religion has proven inadequate also in the twentieth century, because how can it satisfy ultimately the questions? Dr. Ware: In the same way, how can you satisfy a person's lack of emotional content in his job by giving him more money? Half of the trouble starts with the jobs. They have no emotive content now because there's no rapport between them and their boss. They have practically no intellectual interest because they have a routine job in a factory. And you know they are really deprived in this sad way. Mensa Member: Then what worries lots of people about lots of religions is the . . . (indistinct) . . . for example of pointing a finger at the moon and choosing the finger with the moon. Dr. Ware: One of the difficulties, and I think this is true when I was saying simple people, using that in its broader sense, some people cannot get anything at all unless they have a little picture. You know, it helps them; not like the dear old lady who found . . . Prabhupāda: That we give, the picture "Here is God." Śyāmasundara: Just like Christ. He came to speak with a very ignorant class of men. He was forced to speak in parables and stories. *Dr. Ware: Ah, yes. Now parable is better than analogy. An analogy is an intellectual thing, whereas a parable is a human thing. It's got a warmth in it. It's in three dimensions, not a cross*-section. And he was, of course, awfully clever at choosing them. Mensa Member: I don't think your friend Christmas Humphreys will agree with either of those statements. Dr. Ware: Knowing him very well, I don't . . . one would be surprised at . . . (indistinct) . . . he would be perfectly happy to feel that I was disagreeing with him. I think he confuses himself with Kṛṣṇa at times. Mensa Member: Well, is that absolutely . . . (indistinct) . . .? Śyāmasundara: The Buddhist thinks that everyone is God? Prabhupāda: In Buddhist theory there is no acceptance of God. There is simply to diminish, or to nullify, the sense of pains and pleasure. That is called nirvāṇa . Dr. Ware: The atheist is the person who worries most about God. I mean, he really . . . God must exist, but he tries to deny it all. Rather like I had a lecturer at Oxford who wasn't interested in women. He was a misogynist. He talked, you know, against women, and he spent all his time telling you that he wasn't interested in women. He thought about nothing but women and the fact that he wasn't interested in them. His lectures were full of it. It was pathetic. Śyāmasundara: Just like Kaṁsa! Prabhupāda: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Gold and women. Śyāmasundara: Kaṁsa hated Kṛṣṇa, and he wanted to kill Him, but all he could think about was Kṛṣṇa. So somehow or other it boils down that one somehow has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious under some process. Dr. Ware: Even other people, not using that name. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . God consciousness. Dr. Ware: That's what I say Unitarians apparently by having so much of this in their . . . (indistinct) . . . in quite a different way from a different philosophy. And, of course, you begin to feel that they must be very . . . (indistinct) . . . because they were so persecuted. If a person is no real menace to you, you don't have to persecute him. Both Socrates and Christ are perfect examples of that. Prabhupāda: Now we are . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to speak something. Dr. Ware: I think that's been most fascinating, Swami. Very kind of you, indeed. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Dr. Ware: And we would welcome you if you would just comply with our simple requirements. We don't have as one of our requirements the acceptance of anything other than the task of spending, about, at the maximum, an hour and a half doing some simple problems. It's an open invitation. Śyāmasundara: To one of your meetings. Dr. Ware: Oh, no, to the test for the qualification. Śyāmasundara: Oh, a test. They have a test for entry into their Society, and they want to know if you can take this test. Prabhupāda: So why not you come to our Society and we test you? Dr. Ware: We test something different, you see. Prabhupāda: We also test different. Dr. Ware: That's right, yes, quite right. Prabhupāda: As you have process of test, we have also process of test. Dr. Ware: And ours is just as universal. *Prabhupāda: Our process of test is how far he is advanced in God consciousness. That is our test. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ . It is said, yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12). If one has developed God consciousness, all good qualities must develop in them. All good qualities. *Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ . And one who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, he cannot have any good qualities, because his business is mental speculation, mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ . By simply mental speculation, he'll be fixed up in this material world. Dr. Ware: Mental speculation alone is sterile. *Prabhupāda: Mental speculation, mano*-rathena. Ratha means chariot, one who is driving on the chariot of mind, mano-rathena. The chariot of mind will take him . . . will fix him only on material conditions. So long one remains in the material conditions of life, he cannot have any good qualifications. One has to transcend this material platform and come to the spiritual platform. Then his natural good qualities will come out automatically. Dr. Ware: This, of course, is the basis, too, of real . . . *Prabhupāda: For example, for example, our boys, Europeans, American boys, they were addicted with illicit sex life. They were addicted for meat*-eating. They were addicted drinking. They were addicted to gambling. Now they've given up everything. There is no illicit sex in our society. There is no gambling. There is no meat-eating. There is not even smoking, or taking . . . drinking tea. How it is possible? They were addicted to all these things from beginning of their life. Now they have given up. If you take this as good qualities, then they have already developed, besides others. Why? Because due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sometimes in America the authorities, they are surprised. They want to consult us on that, "How you people have given up this (MW - entire) LSD?" They are spending so much money to stop this bad habit. "How it is that your members used to . . . (indistinct) . . .?" Not only LSD, all kinds of intoxications. So if you take it as a good quality, that good quality is developing due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore this is a fact: one who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or good consciousness, he may go on speculating, but he'll never come to the platform of goodness. That is our test. Dr. Ware: That is most impressive, that giving up those things which are really . . . if they were inessentials it would be good to give them up, but since they are harmful, it's even more beneficial. How that can be achieved in the modern world is quite a remarkable feat. Mensa Member: Would you say that you agree with the Swami the . . . some of the bases of religion are essential, are therapeutically useful, valid? Dr. Ware: I think, again, it depends upon the person. I should say to lots of people they are essential, or you might even go farther, as Jung would say, that to everybody they are essential, but they mean something different to different types of people from the very . . . (indistinct) . . . and from the long hair to the very abstract. But the people who lack it do seem to lack. It's rather like they lack a gyroscope. They've got no stability. They just sort of wobble all over the place. Mensa Member: No, they don't. One . . . (indistinct) . . . scientific truth is this works. Dr. Ware: I would like to put my own view, is that I believe very much in the Christian ethics, and I could believe in Kṛṣṇa ethics, or, if I might say. But I could also believe in that without the need to believe in Kṛṣṇa or God. Now whether that's a delusion on my part, and I really do believe deep down inside me, and I don't know . . . Śyāmasundara: But the idea is how to transform that belief into practical action. That's the art. Dr. Ware: But some people need the bridge of the Godhead to achieve it. Other people do it abstractly. Śyāmasundara: Today we went to a service, a Christian service, the first one I've been to in years, and in this Baptist church, we walked in there were eleven old ladies sitting in the pews. And outside I could hear the roar of traffic and people. I began to think how much the Christian Church has lost track or lost pull of this ability to be able to guide people to the practical application of moral and spiritual principles, so much so that no one was interested even to come in . . . *Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet regretting that these boys—he saw our students—he appreciated that, "These boys are so much after God, and they're our boys. We could not give them." Actually the same boy was, one year or two years ago, he was not going to church, he had no interest in God consciousness, but now this same boy is mad after God. And he's twenty*-four hours in God consciousness. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. How they have become so . . . Mensa Member: The Swami made a good point when I talked to him the other day that some of the American churches are packed. There's a great swing towards religion in America, and they're getting a lot of humbug, you know, which is, just one of those . . . I think I disagree with you that today theology has lost its status with the . . . (indistinct) . . . of science, but there seems to be a swing, in my little world, towards spiritual things. Dr. Ware: Oh, I'm glad to hear that because, as I say, one's been watching the swing the other way. Coming back to your point, the other vital thing, we said that earlier on, that we still don't know, in other words, in order to get spiritual qualities you've got to have silence. Correspondingly, in the modern world we have this neurotic disease, the desire for noise. These people can't even do a job without having a transistor set on. There's something psychopathic about this. Mensa Member: It can be used though, can't it? The Kṛṣṇa people use it, the concept of using the word "Kṛṣṇa" . . . (indistinct) . . . the ears, the most subtle of the senses . . . *Dr. Ware: Yes, but this "boop*-a-doop" noise they have, the language stops you from doing your work properly. Śyāmasundara: A material noise. Dr. Ware: Noise, background noise, wireless . . . *Śyāmasundara: But if a person is at our temple and he can hear noise coming . . . it's always there, twenty*-four hours a day, because that propensity is there in this age. We should be taking advantage of it. Dr. Ware: But if I might say, you're not taking advantage of it now, you're merely going back to what has always been the cream of any form of sensation, and that's music. Plato's time, the old idea of the music of the spheres. Music is the food of love. I mean it's, to my mind it's the most wonderful sound. Śyāmasundara: In Revelations, I don't remember the exact verse, "Strike the . . . (indistinct)" Mensa Member: The only spiritual sensation for many people, really, it's from music. *Śyāmasundara: Silence is defined in Bhagavad*-gītā as speaking about Kṛṣṇa, or hearing Kṛṣṇa's name. That is silence. Dr. Ware: Well, if you're silent you can hear things, but if you're making noise, you know, the message doesn't come through, and if somebody else is making a noise, you've got an excuse for not getting the message. I think a lot of people again are afraid of getting the message. So with the noise they can say: "Of course, I didn't hear it, so you mustn't blame me." Now that sort of cheating, I think, is a very bad one. That's not what I call positive cheating. That cheating yourself which is even more dangerous than . . . if you cheat the other chap, if he's clever enough he can avoid the effect of it, but if you cheat yourself, you know you might try and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't get out of it. Śyāmasundara: I believe that the . . . (indistinct) . . . spread this philosophy as much as possible in this age because it's been lost by so much noise. . . . (indistinct) . . . in some people. Our message is getting through, though. Dr. Ware: The fact that it can be heard sometimes even above the noise . . . Prabhupāda: One noise makes liberation, one noise makes bondage. Noise must be there. Dr. Ware: But we do have in this modern world a neurotic desire for noise and novelty. The two things together, they . . . Śyāmasundara: There again, novelty and noise, they're sense gratification. We want to gratify the senses. Dr. Ware: Well, don't you think it's also possible too, mind you, that you only have to have novelty because you are not being satisfied. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Dr. Ware: In other words, what's happening is you're not satisfied, so you have to have something to do. Śyāmasundara: Yes. The senses can never be gratified, but always the drive is there to gratify them. Dr. Ware: If you go to a good play or see a good film or hear some good music, you feel satisfied and you don't have to flash back next night because you've seen it before. You have a feeling that, you know . . . Śyāmasundara: Even that, a good play or a good music, is not very long lasting. When you come out of the theater you're hungry. When your hunger is satisfied, then you want some sex life. Then you want to drive home fast. There's always something there to agitate the material senses. Dr. Ware: The trouble is, aren't you going to lead yourself into this difficulty: if you are spiritually satisfied, you would sit down and do nothing. And if everybody were doing that, we should be rather back to where we started rather than have enough food or music or transport. Prabhupāda: That is for the voidist, not for the spiritualist. The spiritual life there is enough activities for even scientists. That they do not know. They mean spiritual life mean void. That is negation of the present activities only, negative idea. But actually, when you stop material activities your real activity begins. That is spiritual life. The spirit, spirit soul, is active. You cannot stop it. You cannot stop it. Now it is acting through these coverings of material, matter, therefore it is imperfect activities. But if the activity is uncovered by material things, that is real activity. Mensa Member: But aren't desires biological in cause? Dr. Ware: They're necessary. Mensa Member: Yes, but they're biologically necessary rather than spiritually necessary. Dr. Ware: Well, may I say, let's go farther, that when you say biologically necessary, is it necessary for you to be alive? What scientific . . . Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has told us that even in the spiritual world there is desire to have the senses enjoy. Isn't that so? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: But I think you need . . . I agree, I would say you need both. I want spiritual life, material life. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . spiritual thing, I mean, isn't it like people talking about China or New York . . . (indistinct) . . . about it, in fact it might even be a little . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Well, I think to each person his picture is different, too. Śyāmasundara: The idea there is that in spiritual activity everything is seen in relationship to God, and if you serve God with your every activity . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example, just like this finger is part and parcel of body. So long it is attached with the body it has got activities. You cut it from my body, there's no activity. Dr. Ware: Yes, but you've still got a body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Ware: You've still got a body, and you've still got some other fingers left. Prabhupāda: No, you can call it a finger, but it will not act as finger; it will act . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: No, but the others will. I don't see the need for your analogy. Śyāmasundara: The God is there and we are His servants. Prabhupāda: If we are part and parcel of God, then we must be active in serving God. That is my analogy. Dr. Ware: But I don't see the need for analogy. That statement is sufficient. Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? There must be a need. If you think, if you know that you're part and parcel of God, then you must act for God. Dr. Ware: You see, I would go the other way round and say that as long as I know that God is part and parcel . . . *Prabhupāda: You cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . God is the spirit and you are spirit. Therefore you have to take lessons from God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated there, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhuta (BG 15.7) that, "These living entities they are My part and parcels." So, because part and parcel of God, therefore the part and parcel must be active on account of God. That is real life. Why stop activity? That is real life. Dr. Ware: I fear, Swami, if I may say so, without disrespect, that in some ways you're preaching to the converted, and you only make it more muddled to me by giving analogies. Don't you feel that at times? Mensa Member: Yeah, I think the Swami's used to . . . probably used to talking to people that need this . . . Śyāmasundara: Never mind the method. Prabhupāda: When there is a truth spoken by God that, "Living entities are My part and parcel, mamaiva ," why shall I not give the analogy? How do part and parcel acts? I must give analogy. Otherwise how they can understand? Dr. Ware: It's like some people . . . Prabhupāda: For understanding, analogy must be there. Analogy is created for understanding. Dr. Ware: But not in the . . . (indistinct) . . . example. A lot of people try and give an analogy to explain entropy. Now, of course . . . *Prabhupāda: Now I do not know what other people give analogy, but my business is that we take it from Bhagavad*-gītā that living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore, just like this part and parcel of my body is active in relationship with this body, but if it is cut off from the body, it is no more active. Similarly, those who are not active in rendering service to God, they're as dead as this finger cut off from the body. So they have to be awakened to that consciousness. Just like a tree, you cut it, it has no consciousness to protest. But even an ant, a small ant, because it has developed consciousness, you try to kill it, it will protest. Therefore the more consciousness you develop, you become active. That is nature's law. That is nature's law. Developed consciousness does not mean to become dead. Dr. Ware: This is what I've said earlier on, that the whole of the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore if one comes to God consciousness, you becomes more active. Dr. Ware: The whole evolution, I think I may have said it before you came in, the whole evolution to the human mind is to become more and more in conscious control. Prabhupāda: So mind, mind, activities of mind, activities of intelligence and activities of spirit, the spiritual activities more greater than the mind's mental activities. *Śyāmasundara: The other day we were discussing Socrates. And Socrates' method was to bring the self under control by inspecting oneself, "Know thyself," and thereby be able to lead a moral life with self*-respect and self-control. But Prabhupāda was saying that this is not an ordinary thing. Not many men can achieve this rational control. So by simply cultivating spirit, nourishing spiritual life, any man can control his senses. Prabhupāda: Just like, somebody, there is a child, a child is active, but his frivolous activities, or mischievous activities, have to stop when he's active in taking education. The same child, his energy for becoming active is transferred for taking education. He's no more acting mischievously, breaking this, doing this, doing that. *The activity is there. Now that is purified. Similarly, spiritual life means the spiritual activity, that is purified activity. These boys, they have given up drinking, meat*-eating. That does not mean they stop eating. They're eating better things. Therefore they have given up the nonsense eating. So that is spiritual life. Spiritual life means activity purified. Śyāmasundara: Rationally, I was thought to be intelligent. I went to college, got so many degrees, but I could not in the least control my senses and control my mind, even though I tried. I studied philosophy so hard. But by simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and coming to the platform of service for God, all my activities became dovetailed in one direction so that the other things were automatically brought under control as a result. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). The exact word is there, that if one gets good engagement, he can gives up bad engagement. But he cannot make it inactive. That is not possible, because soul is active. It is living. How he can make it inactive? That is not possible. Nirvāṇa means stop nonsense, but take to spiritual life. That is next, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Nirvāṇa does not mean to stop activities; to stop nonsense activities. Come to the real activity. Dr. Ware: Well aṇiman , the word many people use for the soul, also means of course, life . . . (indistinct) . . . being animate. The two are synonymous. Śyāmasundara: Just like you were saying a while ago that if you were in God consciousness, you need not wear a robe. That's also our philosophy. It's very practical. But your consciousness would be always serving Kṛṣṇa, always serving God, in whatever status of life. It isn't necessary to put on a robe first and then God consciousness. Dr. Ware: But it helps some people. Mensa Member: The soul is a very interesting concept, the soul as well, the fact that the soul is quantifiable, that it exists in a smaller part in the larger animals, and a higher part in a higher animals. Śyāmasundara: No. It's the same size in all entities. Mensa Member: Oh, it is, is it? But when we reach a point when we don't know whether there are living things or not, you know, the amino acids, and things like that or . . . Dr. Ware: Well, I would take up that straight away, fundamentally, that it's perfectly correct to say it's the same size every . . . (indistinct) . . . has no size. Prabhupāda: No. It has size. We cannot measure it. Dr. Ware: That's what I mean. Therefore the word "size" is a misconception. Prabhupāda: But that is not a scientific statement. Because you have no measuring instrument you cannot say it has no size. Dr. Ware: Now, if what you say it has not got three dimension, but when we talk about size . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, three dimension. It is said, it is estimated that ten . . . one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Dr. Ware: (laughs) We could do better than that with a micron. Prabhupāda: Then find out the soul, if you have got instrument. Mensa Member: How many angels on the end of a pin? Dr. Ware: In fact this is coming back to that . . . the analogy again. Mensa Member: But the whole thing is so . . . (indistinct) . . . about this . . . (indistinct) . . . putting in Kṛṣṇa instead of Christ. Dr. Ware: But the whole business, if you try to explain . . . Prabhupāda: In geometry they say the point has no length nor breadth. But that is not fact. The point has length and breadth, but you cannot measure it. Dr. Ware: Ah, but the mathematician would say that that isn't . . . the definition of a point is something that has no breadth or depth, but his purpose is working out his philosophy. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . he'd say something entirely different. They'd say that the absolute point . . . Prabhupāda: But if you magnify the point, you'll find there is . . . Dr. Ware: But, coming back to . . . Prabhupāda: It is a question of vision. With your present imperfect vision you do not see. When you take a magnifying glass you see, "Oh, there is length and breadth." Dr. Ware: Ah, but that brings you, Swami, straight away into the problem of the infinite regress. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be . . . Dr. Ware: It becomes smaller and smaller. But you know, you might just as well stop at the beginning as start at the end. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the smallest of the smallest." Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Veda . Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). God is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. Dr. Ware: You're using materialist words, Swami. You're using materialist words, "greater" and "smaller." Prabhupāda: What you meant spiritual? Dr. Ware: No, but I say you are using materialist words to describe them. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by spiritual? No speaking? Dr. Ware: What I say is . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: If I say greater and smaller in this way, and you say this is material, then what is a spiritual expression of this? Can you give me? That means stop, stop talking? Dr. Ware: You don't need it . . . Prabhupāda: . . . you have to. This is not material. When you speak in spiritual connection, this is spiritual. Dr. Ware: You'd have to invent a new language, really. Prabhupāda: No. Why invent? The same language. The same language. Dr. Ware: Well you won't get very far in any form of philosophy in . . . (indistinct) . . . language. Mensa Member: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: But the consciousness in which something is done denotes it. For instance, I could be sweeping the street. Someone would think, "Ah, I'm just a material street sweeper." But if I'm doing it for Kṛṣṇa, it's a transcendental activity, it's a spiritual activity, not a material activity. Dr. Ware: Ah, yes, but I mean, then you have a sort of . . . if somebody else who's sweeping faster and better, you say that he's greater spiritually even if he's doing it . . . Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: No, the purpose must be spiritual. The purpose must be for Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: So if we're speaking about Kṛṣṇa, then our words become spiritual. Dr. Ware: Yes, but I think if you're talking about spiritual things, you mustn't try and quantify it. *Prabhupāda: Spiritual means it has no material qualification. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate ( Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). Dr. Ware: You can't measure the beauty of a rose with a ruler. Śyāmasundara: But you can say it's like this, it's like that. You have to be able to describe it somehow. Prabhupāda: Actually, in higher sense there is nothing material, because everything is emanating from God, therefore everything is spiritual. Dr. Ware: Well, that's true, but the electron, as far as you can say, may be spiritual. Prabhupāda: There is no distinction in higher status, because we say that everything that we see, that is manifestation of God's energy. Dr. Ware: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Energy. So in that sense, if it is God's energy there is nothing material. It is material when we forget God. That is material. Dr. Ware: Well, I would have said . . . but really, rather going back to the analogy of the light. If there's no light there, you can't see whether there's anything there or not. Directly you have the light it enables you to see it. But the things exist independent of whether the light was there all along. Prabhupāda: The light is . . . light is in relationship with fire. So light is not different from the fire. Unless there is fire there is no light, there is no heat. So as soon as you feel heat or see light, the fire is there. In higher sense, those who can realize, immediately realize that there is fire. Just like here there's light. Immediately you can understand there is fire, there is electricity. So it is a question of realization. In the higher realization there is nothing matter; everything is spiritual. Simply when you forget God, that is material. That is material. Śyāmasundara: By using this analogy he's proving that there's a contingency. There's a . . . that wherever there's heat and wherever there's light there must be fire. Dr. Ware: With respect, no, because you can have an infrared thing which is not fire. Śyāmasundara: The original source is fire. Dr. Ware: Or ultraviolet. No. Prabhupāda: How can you explain light without fire? Dr. Ware: Ultraviolet light doesn't have a fire. Prabhupāda: There is sun, ultraviolet rays of the sun. Śyāmasundara: How can you produce ultraviolet light except with electrical apparatus, electricity? Prabhupāda: Light and heat, you cannot think of without fire. Mensa Member: Fluorescence, certain chemicals. Śyāmasundara: The origin is . . . Dr. Ware: You're making . . . Prabhupāda: There is no light, no heat without fire. That's a fact. Mensa Member: Everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . I think. Dr. Ware: Yeah, you see, that's the trouble. You can say really that there's no light or heat without an electrical movement. That's as far as you need. You don't need to go any farther. Mensa Member: No, the point you were making is that the absolute source of everything is the sun. Was that the . . .? Prabhupāda: That is heat. That is fire. Mensa Member: Even if it's not there now, it was there a thousand years ago. Śyāmasundara: It's gone through about the different transformations from its original source. Dr. Ware: Well, this is a form of scientific atavism. It's rather outmoded with the usual concepts of long ago. But one's got beyond that now. Śyāmasundara: No, it then takes . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) So we have to go down or not. So we can go down. Dr. Ware: Most interesting . . . (indistinct) Mensa Member: Yes, but it all . . . (indistinct) . . . great argument. Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall talk more when we meet next. Dr. Ware: Well, I've enjoyed it very much, and it was very kind of you. Where are you going on Wednesday? Where are you going? Prabhupāda: I'm going to Mombasa. Dr. Ware: Really. One of my greatest pleasures was to be able to entertain the Dalai Lama's secretary in the luncheon hall in Lincoln's Inn just near here. Śyāmasundara: We went walking there one morning, Lincoln's Inn. Mensa Member: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Yes. I've always wanted to go there. We've got four Tibetans over, studying . . . (indistinct) . . . part of the college estate of Hampstead. And I've always liked the idea of their going up into those wonderful mountains and . . . Although you may say, you know, one mustn't overvalue material things, as far as their diet is concerned, they must be very much like you followers. You know, they have . . . because they have . . . (indistinct) . . . they have nothing wrong with their gums or their teeth. It must be about the only place in the world . . . Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has all his teeth, too. He is nearly eighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. I've got my natural teeth. Śyāmasundara: Perfect diet. Mensa Member: Thank you for sparing this time and . . . Dr. Ware: Such short notice, I didn't realize . . . it was such a pleasure, and I was so glad that you were able to fit it in before you go. Śyāmasundara: He's going to speak now down in the temple. If you can stay, listen more. Dr. Ware: Well, I don't know. I should imagine the crowd is so great. Śyāmasundara: (chuckles) Well, you can sit in front. Dr. Ware: We will see as we go down, I think . . . I must take my spiritual . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 22, 1971, Nairobi *Prabhupāda: Somewhere in the world somebody will say it is half*-past twelve, somebody will say half-past seven, somebody will say . . . so many, twenty-four hours. So the sun is the same one, but in one place they will say it is half-past six, in another place it is half-past seven. How it is going on? In our calculation this sun, as you have seen, this half-past five sun, you cannot make it half-past eight. But it is half-past eight also . . . Guest: Elsewhere. Prabhupāda: . . . at the same time. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if it is possible for an ordinary material thing like that, why it is not possible God, the Absolute, to become a child and a youth at the same time, simultaneously? Why is it not possible? Your question is how God became child. So my answer is God is child and youth at the same time. That is God . . . (indistinct) Guest: And I agree God is in children and in . . . Prabhupāda: Not in children. God is child Himself and youth Himself at the same time. It is not that . . . I am not saying that sun is revealed this time. Sun is there in the sky. But still the times are different. Guest (2): That means that God can reveal Himself in many different forms. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Vedas : advaitam. Advaita means one. Dvaita means dual. But He is advaita . He is one. Acyuta , infallible. Advaitam acyutam. Anādi : He has no beginning. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Still He has got millions of forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ. Purāṇa means the oldest. Because everything has come from God, then God must be oldest. *Just like you have come from your father, your father must be older than you, your grandfather must be older than him. Similarly, if God is the original person, then He must be the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ. Purāṇa , the oldest. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca : and at the same time He is youthful. Just like in Kṛṣṇa book, you see. He is fully youth, although He is the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam . Guest: Which is . . . who is Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . .? Who is Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): Oh, the one in blue. And the other one? Prabhupāda: Rādhārani—His consort. Consort. Guest (2): Consort. Prabhupāda: His pleasure potency. Guest: So you think Kṛṣṇa is a living God? Prabhupāda: God is always living. Guest: He is in this world, not in another special place? Prabhupāda: In another place also. That is God. Guest: Another place also? Prabhupāda: Just like you are sitting. You are not in your office, not your home, but God can be here and everywhere. That is God. Just like the sun is here, and ten thousand miles away you ask somebody, he will say: "Yes, the sun is here." How it is possible? But it is fact. It is shining here, and the Western countries in Europe you ask, "Where is the sun?" they will say: "Yes, here." How it is possible? At noontime in your country, ask anyone five thousand miles away, ten thousand miles away, like that, "Where is sun?" And they will say: "It is on my head." How it is possible? So if it is possible for a material thing, how much it is greatly possible for God. He is the Supreme. That is knowledge. Guest: Is God having a material construction? Prabhupāda: No. That is the difference. Material world you have got material construction. You cannot be simultaneously here and in your office. Guest: So the material construction . . . I mean is my body is materially constructed. That is what I am referring to. And I was asking whether God . . . Prabhupāda: God's body is not materially constructed. Your present body is materially constructed. Therefore I say that you are covered by the material body; *but you are not material. These things are explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. Guest: But if Kṛṣṇa is God, how it is that His humans have a material construction of the body? *Prabhupāda: Just to make your seeing possible. Just like, here is God—Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. He is God, but because we cannot see God, He has kindly appeared just suitable for my seeing. That is His mercy. Guest: And is He actual to be photographed? Prabhupāda: Why not? Guest: Because He is photographed here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And not only that. Here, I realized . . . *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. God can appear in different places, because He is omnipotent, all*-powerful. Because you cannot see God with your eyes; therefore He appears before you in such a form that you can see Him. Just like the whole world, you cannot see some . . . (indistinct) . . . if there is a map you can see here is London, here is Germany, here is river. You can see the river in the map. The map is made in such a way that it is possible to see the whole world on your hand. Is it not? *Then God cannot make Himself easily accessible to you by His mercy? Then what is His all*-merciful? If He appears to be visible by you, it can be fault on the part of God? That is . . . (indistinct) . . . He appears in a form so that you can see, you can render your service. God is everywhere; that's all right. But unless He appears before you in a form, how you can render your service? So just like post office box, mailbox. So it is post office? The mailbox, you put your letter on the street. Guest (2): A part of post office. All post office property. Prabhupāda: No, it is post office, practically. Because you are putting your letter there, it is going to the destination. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, if the post office gives you some facility to become a small post office, so why God is unable to become small so that you may render your service? Why you say that He cannot? That is God is under your law, that He cannot. If you say: "Ah, here is a small box; it cannot be post office. Post office is very big," is that very good argument? So if it is possible how the post office, why it is not possible for God to become just in the form you can handle? It is God's mercy, but He accepts everything what you serve. This is called omnipotency. *Bhagavad*-gītā describes. He says that, "I have got My hands everywhere. I have got My eyes everywhere. I have got My legs everywhere." Simply you have to catch where is God's hand, where is God's legs. Just like electricity is everywhere. The electrical appliance has captured the electricity. Similarly, God is everywhere; simply you have to know the art how to catch His legs, His legs and hands. Guest: As if you have just come to the . . . at least we are thinking something about God. Had we not tried ourselves, we would have not been here. *Prabhupāda: So you try to understand there is a big science of God, bhagavat*-jñāna , bhagavat tattva . That is explained preliminarily in Bhagavad-gītā . You try to understand. You'll understand what is God. Śyāmasundara: What is the relationship of Jesus Christ? Prabhupāda: That is different. Jesus is the son of God. He says, "I am son of God." So we accept him as son of God. Guest: It now appears that we are going to concentrate on serious studies. And we have misunderstood Kṛṣṇa before. Not now. Now we have accept Kṛṣṇa as God Himself. Particularly . . . (indistinct) . . . and myself, I did not understand Kṛṣṇa as God before. I took Him just as the Christians take Jesus in the Christian religion. So I took Kṛṣṇa as, well, something like the . . . (indistinct) . . . as the Christians, in the Hindu religion. Now . . . this means now we are going to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa Himself, and then will that also carry you the all knowledge of the Hinduism and all these things? State religion? Prabhupāda: Well, our religion is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—to understand Kṛṣṇa. And to understand Kṛṣṇa means to understand everything. In course of understanding Kṛṣṇa, you will understand everything. Guest: And does it mean that I have to understand, say, all about other, say, say like the Śiva or the Durgā, and all these . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you understand Kṛṣṇa . . . just like if you understand what is milk, you can understand what is milk products. Lord Śiva is said in the Vedic language, just like curd. Guest: Curd. Prabhupāda: Curd, yogurt. What is this yogurt? It is milk. Is it not? Is it not? Similarly, the description of Lord Śiva is there in the Vedic literature: Kṣīraṁ means milk. As it is combined with some sour chemical it becomes curd— dadhi . Dadhi , yogurt. It has no other source. Similarly, when Lord, the Supreme Lord, generates this material world, He is called Lord Śiva. Therefore just like yogurt is milk, but milk is not yogurt, similarly Lord Śiva is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is not Śiva. Or Kṛṣṇa is Lord Śiva, but Śiva is not Kṛṣṇa. You can understand easily also, just like your body is your father's body, but you are not your father's body. So you will understand all these things. If you try to understand Kṛṣṇa only, then you will become fully aware of everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Does the word Kṛṣṇa got particular meaning, the word Kṛṣṇa ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive. When one becomes attractive . . . have you got any idea what are the qualification of attraction? Now, suppose you are president. If president comes here, everyone will stand up—attraction. Why? What is the qualification? Guest: Well, it goes from . . . sort of a . . . (indistinct) . . . called greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got some great power within the state. Therefore power is one of the qualification of attraction. Śyāmasundara: He is famous. Prabhupāda: He is famous. That is quality of attraction. If he is not beautiful . . . but God is beautifuller; therefore there is attraction. A president may be president in his country, but he'll never be a wise man. But God is wise. God is fully wise, God is fully beautiful, God is fully strong, God is fully rich, God is fully renounced. This is God's creation, but you cannot see God personally here throughout the whole universe. *How . . . (indistinct) . . . so He has created . . . we are after a little more piece of land and fight, and God has created so many planetary systems, and He doesn't care for it. Just see how much renunciation. If I create a small house like this, I become so much attached that I can sacrifice my whole life for this. But God has created the whole universe— ananta*-koṭi , innumerable universes—and He has no attachment for them. That is called renunciation. *So who can be more than God a renounced person? Who can be richer person? Who can be powerful person? Asamordhva . Another name of God is Asamordhva—nobody is equal to Him, nobody is greater than Him. That is called asamordhva—ūrdhva means greater, asama means equal . . . sama . Sama means equal. Sama means negative, none. Asama , "non*-equal." Amordhva , not for them. Everyone is under Him. It may be Lord Śiva, it may be Lord Brahmā, it may be Lord Viṣṇu even—everyone is under Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā : *You'll find in this Bhagavad*-gītā : mattaḥ —"above Me"; *para*-taram —"greater." Mattah-parataram; na anyat —"nothing else." Nothing else is greater or equal to Kṛṣṇa. Then how Lord Śiva can be equal to Kṛṣṇa? Nobody can be equal to Kṛṣṇa. That is God: nobody is equal to Him, and nobody is greater than Him. "God is great" means that nobody is greater than Him. So you have to find out who is that person who is greater than everyone. And that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Paramaḥ means supreme; īśvaraḥ means controller. You are also controller. You are in your office, you are controlling your assistants, some clerk. Is it not? So you are controller, every one of us, controller. But we are not absolute controller. I am controller, but I have got another controller over me. In this way go on studying: controller, controller, controller, controller, and you come to the Supreme Controller—that is God. He controls everyone, but nobody controls Him. That is God. Guest: And is this the only time that the Kṛṣṇa has revealed Himself to man? I mean, from our present books we know when Kṛṣṇa was born, and so we know that God as Kṛṣṇa revealed Himself to man. Was that the only time, or has He ever revealed Himself before? Prabhupāda: Before. Many, many times. Guest: And after? Prabhupāda: After also. Just like the sunrise was many, many times before my birth, and it will continue to rise after my death. Guest: And after this? *Prabhupāda: I am simply a small fragment in this creative world world. What is my identity, say for fifty years, sixty years, hundred years? But we get from the history twenty thousand years ago, at the time of sunrise such*-and-such things happened. So sun was rising twenty thousand years before my birth, so similarly the sun will continue to set or rise twenty thousand years after also. So God appears like that. He has got a particular time to appear in this universe. That is also stated in the śāstras : *In Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find. *So everything is there in śāstra . You have simply to know it. That's all. Nothing is to be concocted or manufactured. Everything is there. All answers are there. Simply you have to find out. You have to make your questions, and you will find your answers in the Bhagavad-gītā . Just Kṛṣṇa says, in the First Chapter you'll find, when Krsna says to Arjuna that, "I spoke this philosophy to sun*-god some millions of years ago," so Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, You are my friend. You were born; *You are contemporary. How is that? How can I believe that You spoke to sun*-god millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered, "Both you and Me took birth many, many times, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." That is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say what you were in your previous birth. That is living entity. But Kṛṣṇa can say, many millions of His births or appearances before, what He was doing, exactly at what time. That is Krsna. Guest: And how old was Kṛṣṇa, say, when He died? *Prabhupāda: He died at the . . . not died. Nobody dies. You also do not die. Nobody dies. So He left this world at the age of hundred and twenty*-five years. Guest: Did He have any family? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And was He . . . was it correct that God could have family attachments in this world? Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: Is it correct that God should have family attachments in this world? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why God should be bereft of His family attachments? Guest: Well, taking into consideration that we are all His children, was it necessary for Himself to have, say, a particular family as we are having our families? Because we are human beings, and He Himself is God. *Prabhupāda: He is playing the part of a human being. You should remember that. He is not human being, but a foolish man takes Him as a human being. I have already told you that God appears in a form so that we can transact with Him—we can talk with Him, we can mix with Him. Unfortunately, as soon as He does so, I take Him as one of us. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). Mūḍhā means rascals, asses. "They deride upon Me because I play with them as human being." "Without knowing the background of My past . . ." When we accept Kṛṣṇa as one of us, then we become mūḍhā , rascal, because we have no full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. How we can have full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? But by His causeless mercy He comes before us just like ordinary human being, but at the same time He keeps His position as God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was amongst the human society, He kept His position as God, but He played as a human being. Just like when He was a boy of seven years old He lifted the hill with the little finger of His left hand, Govardhana Hill. Guest (2): Still He is there. Still He is there, with His left finger, holding up like this. Prabhupāda: Still. So although He was playing as a human child, He kept His godly power intact. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . could afford just like a forest. When we go there, still you know some ladies are putting red marks here. When they go on the hill, just they put like this red mark even now, today. Even today, if you go to India you will find that place . . . (indistinct) . . . is there in the forest. *Prabhupāda: So God, although appears before us as a human being, we should not . . . those who are in the knowledge of God, they will know that He is playing as human being, but He is God—by His action, by His education, by His knowledge, by His beauty, by His richness, by His everything. Just like the Bhagavad*-gītā spoken by Kṛṣṇa. This book Bhagavad-gītā is read not by the Hindus or Indians but all over the world, very seriously, because it is the knowledge given by God, and the people are interested. Guest (2): (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, but we have to study both paths . . . (indistinct) . . . just like God comes before us as a human being, but He is not a human being. He is God. And when necessary He shows His godly form. Guest: What is the difference between the . . . you know, it's now coming to picture, or it is just beginning to picture to me that God is being divided by mankind in one way or another. There are denominations combining God as one in three . . . the Trinity, they call it? Prabhupāda: The God . . . the humankind is dividing amongst themselves. Guest: They are dividing God . . . Prabhupāda: But why the human being is dividing amongst themselves? "You are African, I am Indian, he is American, he is this . . ." Why they are divided? Why they are dividing this humankind? Why don't you answer this? The human society, why they are dividing the humankind, that, "Here is Asians," "They are Africans," "They are Europeans"? Why they are dividing? Guest: Well, they are divide partly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somehow or the other they are dividing. Is it not? Some way or other they are dividing. Guest: They are dividing. *Prabhupāda: So that is their business. They are . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore they divide God. (laughter) Therefore when one does not divide: paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). When they become without any division, that is knowledge. That is real knowledge. Guest: Is Kṛṣṇa the very, very, very God? The very, very, very God? Prabhupāda: First of all your answer is why God is divided. Try to understand. That a human being, his . . . (indistinct) . . . is to divide; therefore he has divided God. God is not divided. Guest: I have understood . . . (indistinct) . . . is Kṛṣṇa the very, very God human beings believe in? Be he a believer or not, but he knows that is one very, very God, living God? Prabhupāda: Who knows that there is a God? Who knows? Guest: Man. Prabhupāda: Man. Yes. So there is a God. That's nice. There must be God. Just like we are sitting in this room, we know this room has a proprietor, this house has a proprietor. We are in Africa we know that this Africa is the property of the African people. So there is a president. Similarly, this whole universe, why there is not a president and proprietor? What is the difficulty to understand? It is simply bigger. Just like this neighborhood is bigger than this room, and this your Nairobi city is bigger than this neighborhood, and the country is bigger than Nairobi. Similarly bigger, bigger, bigger, but in each and every this identity, there is a person, proprietor. So why not of this big, gigantic universe there is a proprietor? Why not? How can you deny it, there is God? You cannot know Him . . . I am a foreigner, I have come to your country. I do not know what is your president, but I know there must be a president or a king. Similarly, we may not know who is the proprietor of this universe—there must be a proprietor. That is to be concluded. There must be. That is God consciousness. It is not necessary that I must be acquainted with the president of Kenya, but I must know that there is a president. Similarly, it is not necessary that you have to meet God, but by your logical conclusion you must know that there is God. Now if you become fortunate, then you can know Him and see Him personally. And if I get the facility, I can see your president and talk with him personally, although ordinarily it is not possible; it requires some process—to go to his secretary, write him letter, I have to wait for the time. But it is not impossible. Similarly, God is there. You can see Him. You can talk with Him. But you have to take the process. That process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Therefore the most popular thing, idea, was . . . or, my question was based on how God came to have children, and He's the creator? Or is it not believed that we were created by God? Prabhupāda: But wherefrom this belief comes, first of all? Guest: Well, it is a very, indeed, as when one comes to fail . . . (indistinct) . . . but where we came from as human beings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be a source . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the idea. That is explained in Vedānta*-sūtra . When you enquire about Brahma, atātho brahma-jijñāsā —when a person becomes inquisitive to understand what is the Absolute Truth—the answer is immediately janmādy asya yataḥ : the Absolute Truth is that from which everything is emanating. So the Absolute Truth is the father of everything. So that is natural conclusion, that just like my existence at the present moment is due to my father; my father has created. So my father's existed, his father did. So go on researching: you will find the Supreme Person. That is God. Guest: There must be somebody in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how it is possible? Guest: But it is difficult to know when was the beginning. Prabhupāda: That we do not require. Guest: But as a human being . . . *Prabhupāda: Just like you know surely that you had a grandfather, a great*-grandfather, but you do not require to know when your great-grandfather was born. There is no need. But it is a fact that because you are, because your father is, because your grandfather is, there must be a great-grandfather. There is no need of "When my great-grandfather was born?" You need not waste your time in that way. Guest: But we know when Kṛṣṇa was born? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is born every day, everywhere. That I already explained. Just like the sun, the sunset and sunrise is going on every minute. Guest: Are His sons living still in the world still—children He left here? Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: (indistinct) . . . offspring now? Prabhupāda: Do not say that God is dead. God disappears. Śyāmasundara: He is asking if . . . are His descendants still on this planet? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are all descendants; we are all sons of God. Guest: Are we the offsprings of the . . . of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Originally, as spiritual sparks, we are part and parcel of God. That part and parcel of God, a small spark of spirit, is changing bodies. Therefore on the change of body we are making history. Born in, 1870, but died in 1907. But the spiritual spark is changing from body to body, as you have changed already in so many bodies. You were a little body like this. So where is that body? That body is not existing, but you had this body. That you can experience. You had a boy's body, playing very nicely. You can remember. But where is that boy's body? So from childhood you got a boyhood body, then you got a youthhood body; you will get an old body. The body is changing every moment. That is death—birth and death. Similarly, when this body will be finished it is called death. But this body is finished, but you take another body. Just like you have already taken from babyhood body to childhood body, childhood body to boyhood body. Similarly, when this body is finished, you take another body. That is transmigration of the soul. *So the soul is the same. By changing body we are creating the so*-called history: 1857 and 1907 and so on, so on, so on. This is a bodily history. Therefore, because Kṛṣṇa has got no material body, therefore He is eternal. He has no past, present and future. Guest: Swāmījī, if he says that way, that we are the children of the earth . . . (indistinct) . . . which is from Kṛṣṇa, then the world at present must be a different one. That means there might not be America, Africa, India, or anything like that. It will be one place, and then . . . *Prabhupāda: Actually this is our creation. This earth, earthly planet, is one. Actually, when Kṛṣṇa was here, even up to five thousand years ago, the whole world was called, that is known as Bharata*-varṣa, even from historical point of view. And it was being ruled by one king, from Hastināpura—five thousand years ago. Gradually the world has separated. Guest: How it is possible that Africans, Americans and Indians, they are children of the same God, or same . . .? Prabhupāda: It is our common home. Kṛṣṇa consciousness will teach us this, that this world is one home for the human beings on this planet. We are all God's children. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. But we have divided. But at that time there will be no necessity of passport or immigration and citizenship. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Simply you have to come to that knowledge . . . (indistinct) Just like India, as it is twenty years ago, there was no Partition. How the Partition has come into existence? Divided. Similarly, the whole world was one; gradually it has divided—for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If we know Kṛṣṇa, if you know that this planet is Kṛṣṇa's, we are all Kṛṣṇa's children, the animals are also Kṛṣṇa's children, then if you want something to eat . . . At the cost of its father the animal is living on the grass. So I have no right to kill him. He is my brother. He is living by God's grace. God has given some food—God has given him grass. God has given you grain. The animal does not take the grain, he takes the skin only. God has ordered in that way, that "Here is grain. You take the grain and you let the animal take the skin. And live peacefully." Why you are going to eat the animals? This is God consciousness. *And because we are not in God consciousness, clear, therefore we are thinking, "The animals are meant for my eating." And the animal is thinking in another way. I am thinking "Indian," and you are thinking "African"—because there is no God consciousness. And as soon as we come to God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : At that time you can see all living entities are parts and parcel of God, you are God's . . . Godbrothers. *That is the position at the stage of brahma*-bhūtaḥ stage, when you understand yourself, what you are. When you understand that you are not African, when I understand I am not Indian, when I understand that I am not this body, I am not this mind, I am pure soul, then that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Because the spiritual spark is brahma . *Now our concept of life is this body, material concept of life, jīva*-bhūta : I have become this African, I have become Indian, or I have become this dog, I have become this cat, I have become this king. Like that. This is jīva-bhūta . Just like you have got white shirt, you have got black coat, he has got blue coat and so on. But we are not concerned with the coats and shirt. We are concerned with as human being, as spirit soul. That is perfect stage . . . that is pure stage. When one is devoid of all designations . . . these are all designations—"I am African," "I am Indian," "I am European," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are all designations. So when we become free from all designations, then we are pure, and in that pure state we can understand what is God. So God is pure, and when you become pure you can understand what is God. So we have to adopt this purificatory method. That is all. Then you will come to that stage. Guest: And "Kṛṣṇa" is another name . . . can one translate the word "Kṛṣṇa" with another name of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be. God has many qualities. God is full of all qualities, so you select one quality, and you name God in that way. Kṛṣṇa is all*-perfect because He comprehends all ideas, all at once. Therefore this is the perfect name of God. Just like God is called Govardhana-dhārī. Because He has the quality to lift the Govardhana Hill, He is called Govardhana-dhārī. God is called Nandanandana—the son of Mahārāja Nanda. So what is that reason? The reason is that He appeared as son of Nanda Mahārāja, therefore He is called Nandanandana. So all the names of God, they are defined according to His qualities. But He has got all the qualities. So any name which is indicating to the quality of God, that is God's name. But this name "Kṛṣṇa" is prime, because it includes all the qualities. Therefore "Kṛṣṇa" is the original name. Suppose you name one God's name. Have you got any idea of God's name? Do you know any name of God? Guest: Mungu. Prabhupāda: Mungu. What is the meaning of this Mungu? Guest: "God." *Prabhupāda: God is addressed Mungu Just like Kṛṣṇa name has meaning—all*-attractive. So what is this word meaning of Mungu? Brahmānanda: Literal meaning. Prabhupāda: Literal meaning. Guest: Literal meaning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: When there is Mungu, that means the almighty God. Prabhupāda: That's it. So because God has got all power, therefore you call Mungu. This is God's name. That is all right. God has all power. He is almighty, all power. Therefore if Mungu means "almighty," then it is God's name. Devotee: Jaya . Guest: Now you say we don't die, we go . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't die is what you are saying. Then why do we have to get this changing of bodies? Prabhupāda: That is another question. This is nice question. Actually, we don't require to change bodies. We don't require. But we are put into certain conditions that we have to change our body. That is material life. In the material life, in the material existence, we have to change bodies, because we have got different desires, different consciousness. Now why there is fight between one nation to another nation, one body to another's body? Because they have got different consciousness. Is it not? I have got a consciousness, you have got another consciousness. Therefore I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, and ultimately we fight. Similarly, because we have now come to this material world for enjoying this material world, under different consciousness we are given different bodies. God is so kind, "All right; please enjoy." Just like a tiger, he wants to enjoy fresh blood immediately. So God has given, "All right, you take this body. You can enjoy." So God is very kind. As we want to enjoy differently, He gives us different bodies. Therefore we have to withdraw all these desires. We have to simply desire God, or Kṛṣṇa. Then you get godly body. That's all. Guest: Has that been proved? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: How? How is it proved that people don't die and . . .? Prabhupāda: That I already have said, that you have changed your childhood body. There is no . . . that body is gone. You cannot find out where is that body, but you know that you were a child in a different body. Therefore you are eternal, although your body is gone. Guest: But from my childhood to where I am at the moment, I changed when I was seeing almost. But then . . . Prabhupāda: Your body is no longer existing, but still you are seeing; therefore you are eternal. Guest: But the most surprising thing is the change that comes all of a sudden to an individual, and then that body is . . . Prabhupāda: That is just by law. You do not know the law, how it is changing, how it is transforming—that is your ignorance. But it is taking place, that's a fact. Because you are ignorant of certain process, that is not your knowledge. You should know how it is being changed. Similarly, just like you are in now this shirt and coat, when you go at home, then . . . (indistinct) . . . like this, now you are in this apartment and you go another apartment, does that mean that you are finished? You are somewhere. Similarly, when you give up this body you'll take another body. One may not know what kind of body he has taken, but he has taken a body. Exactly just like if you go from this apartment room, it is a fact that you have gone to another apartment. But I may not know to which apartment you have gone. But this is a fact, that you must have gone to another apartment. Guest (2): Unless one has got a total spiritual knowledge, or say . . . Prabhupāda: This is not very advanced knowledge. You are in the apartment of a small body, now you are in different body. Guest: It is just like when we were children, or say in that form, what clothes we were putting on we cannot recall now, because we have changed so many times. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you were a child, that is a fact. Similarly, you may not recall what you were in your previous body, but you were. That is a fact. Guest: If I go back to another question: You were saying, sir, what do you call it, the world, about five thousand years ago, the world was one. All people were ruled by one king . . . Prabhupāda: That you can understand from history, *Mahābhārata* . The history is there. There is a history called by the name *Mahābhārata* . Mahā means greater; bhārat means this planet. That you can understand from that book. There is a history; there is *Purāṇas* . You can understand. As you understand history by reading history, similarly you can understand all these things by reading all these books. Guest: If I could try to depart a little, because I am confused a little bit by the Bible or by this religion about God or . . . Prabhupāda: That is your selection. But Bible may be two thousand years old, but before two thousand years, what was the situation you cannot say. You cannot say that before two thousand years there was no existence . . . (indistinct) . . . that you cannot say. So if the human society was still there, so what was their religion, what they were doing? There must be some history. And that history is *Mahābhārata* . Guest: Are we classified by that . . . (aside) What is it called? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa Guest: . . . Kṛṣṇa, when this has started? Prabhupāda: But it is never started. Kṛṣṇa is always, just like the sun is always. Guest: The world was there . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can say: "Since the material world was started, this classification started." The material world means it has got a date of starting. But before this starting of material world, the spiritual world was there. Just like you are now constructing African state, but that does not mean Africa did not exist before your construction work. Africa was still existing before your independence, before your calling this name or that name. Guest: And what is the purpose of man living in this world? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Because he wanted to enjoy. There are so many species of life in your country: there are tigers, there are lions, there are elephants—and you are there, we are here. We have got different purposes. I have come here with a different purpose. I have come also to Africa, but my purpose is different. And the lion is also here in Africa, but his purpose is different. Guest: I think I have to put my question in a different way. Prabhupāda: Because you have got a certain type of desire, you are sent here. Guest: But let's say from the God's point of view, what is the purpose of man to live in this world? Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to live here. God is so kind. Just like a father, his one son is living there, and his one son has left home, but father does not like it. Father is saying: "You are doing this, I don't like it." This is happening. Similarly, you are all sons of God. You liked it, "All right," so the father, "You do it. Enjoy it." Guest: But is it the will of God that man should live in this world in this way? Prabhupāda: No. God does not say that, "You live in this world." God comes here, rather, to call you back to home: "Don't live in this world. You are always suffering. Please come to Me." God does not like that you should be here. Guest: But even the rich people are dying, they are not suffering. What sort of suffering are you referring to? Prabhupāda: Your idea is that rich people does not suffer? Guest: Rich people? Prabhupāda: Your idea is that rich people do not suffer? Guest: Well, that's what I'm asking. Prabhupāda: No, everyone suffers. Here, the rich or poor, or the animal or the man or the demigod or the . . . everyone suffers. Guest (2): Suffering could be different . . . Prabhupāda: Suffering is the meaning of this material world. Guest: I see. Prabhupāda: You may suffer in one way, I may suffer in another way, but nobody is free from suffering. That's a fact. Guest: Well I'm referring to the common suffering by the most people, when . . . Prabhupāda: The common suffering is birth, death, old age and disease. The animal is suffering from this, you are suffering from this, I am suffering from this, he is suffering from this—birth, death, old age and disease. When these four problems can be solved by scientific advancement, then you have gained something. But that is not possible. You cannot stop birth, you cannot stop death, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. Guest: That is in everything . . . (indistinct) . . . any life. Prabhupāda: That is real suffering. It may be manifested in different way, just like you have got some disease, but symptoms are different. Sometimes you think that, "My . . . I am feeling headache," sometime feeling pain somewhere. But disease is the one. Similarly, here the material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. So these four miserable conditions are manifested in different ways. So when you come . . . when you become purified from this material consciousness, then you become again to your original position, eternal position, na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20), never dies, never takes birth. Śyāmasundara: There is a state free from this suffering? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are free from all these things. You become purified. Guest: But still when you become, say, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what I understand, that suppose we feel as if we are this coat, if we realize Him, and we feel happiness . . . (indistinct) . . . everything, but still our body, physical body, it still remains old or it grows old. Prabhupāda: That's fine. But you are not this body. Guest: That we understand. Prabhupāda: You are not growing old. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you are identifying with this body, you are thinking, "I am African," "I am American," "I am Indian . . ." Guest: And everything goes wrong. Prabhupāda: Everything will be . . . if you are completely in understanding that "I am not this body," then you are no longer African or born Indian, no more Hindu, no more Muslim; *you are spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi —"I am Brahma." And as soon as you come to that state, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā : immediately becomes joyful. That is required. We are searching after joy. (aside) Aiya . So that is required: to be purified. As soon as you are purified, free from all designations . . . at the present moment the disease is I am feeling, I am identifying with my designation. That is my disease. I am thinking, "I am Indian"; somebody is thinking that he is Hindu; *somebody is thinking that he is European, somebody African, Asian. But these are all designations. So actually when we become designation*-free, that is called brahma-bhūta stage. And that is the stage of ānanda . Ānanda , or pleasure. Ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). *Every living entity or God is ānanda*-maya . Just like you see Kṛṣṇa's picture is ānanda-maya : He is enjoying. Here is the picture. He is enjoying. He is playing flute with the company of Śrīmatī Rādhārani. He is enjoying. He is young man. This is the real form of God— ānanda-maya . God hasn't got to till the ground for eating or make any business or any profession. So you can get also the same position along with God. You can go to Kṛṣṇa also, dance with Him, enjoy with Him. Ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt . By nature God and the living entities are enjoying, joyful. *So unless you come to that position of joyfulness . . . you must know that if you are diseased, you cannot enjoy life. If you are suffering from fever, I may offer you very nice, palatable dishes—you cannot enjoy it. Similarly, so long you are not in that ānanda*-maya position, you cannot enjoy life. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . The highest standard of happiness can be enjoyed by your spiritual senses, not by these blunt material senses. So you have to be purified from this blunt material consci . . . that you can feel. Just like when you are freed from feverish condition, you can enjoy these same foodstuffs so nice, "Ah, now I will enjoy." So here we are not enjoying. We are trying to enjoy, because we have got the enjoying spirit, but due to our diseased condition we are not enjoying. Everything is detestful, confused, frustrated. But we are by nature joyful—therefore we are trying to see, "Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment?" But I am keeping myself in diseased condition. How he can enjoy? Guest: That's true. Prabhupāda: So one has to be freed from the diseased condition, and then he can enjoy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—to make people free from the diseased condition of life. Guest: But I think you'll still allow me to say that I haven't got, well, clear answer to the question I was aiming to ask you. See, the thing is that—taking the fact the God is great, and He can do anything that He wants, now, my question would be: we see that we are going in this world, we die, and we come back through reincarnation and all these things, and when you are here we have got different, er . . . we are not all equal, some are rich, some are poor . . . Prabhupāda: Because of this diseased condition of life. Guest: Now my real question is this: God could see that there is no question of a source to be born into this world, material, and all these things, and so if He did not do that . . . God is present in the . . . (indistinct) . . . human being process and all these things. What is the purpose of God? Not making us live that we are . . . Prabhupāda: The purpose of God is that He enjoys. Guest: And suppose I am not enjoying? Prabhupāda: But you do not. You do not like. Just like God says: But you do not do that. Guest: Does it mean that there is no enjoyment . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, God wants that you enjoy. But He says, just like the father says the son that, "Why are you suffering? Come to me. I shall give you all protection." But the son does not do it. So what the father will do? Śyāmasundara: In other words, there's free will. Prabhupāda: Yes. God can do it by force, but He does not do it, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? He has given you free will. Or God is free, therefore you are part and parcel of God; therefore you have got free will. And if you are killed with that free will, then what is your value? Then you become a stone. Guest: And then is it true that some people are born lucky and some are born unlucky? Prabhupāda: "Lucky" means just like here we are sitting so many: somebody's income is hundred, somebody's is a thousand, somebody's is lakh . He has made his fortune. That is there. God has nothing to do with that. He has worked hard, he has got. That's all. Just like you, African nation, now you are trying to develop your country so you be also as rich as the Europeans and others. That will depend on your work. So these varieties of work will not solve your material question: birth, death, old age and disease. You will never be happy. That is the position. You may be as rich as the Americans or the Europeans, but that does not mean that you will be free from all disturbances. Therefore in our philosophy these are simply waste of time. Just like the British Empire was created—the Africans were being ruled by the Britisher as India was being ruled by the Britisher. They thought, "We have created very nice situation." But our view: they simply wasted their time. Where is that British Empire? Lord Clive is standing now . . . (aside) What is that road? Śyāmasundara: St. James Park. Prabhupāda: St. James Park. There is a stone statue. But he might have taken the birth as a dog. What this statue will help him? Nothing. But that is all: attraction. "Let me become a big statue in the park." (laughter) And that is called māyā . Guest: We know that all the God has got no beginning and no end. What is the beginning of mankind? Prabhupāda: What is the beginning of mankind? Guest: (indistinct) . . . take my own self. Prabhupāda: Yes. Beginning is the same. Creation, when this material world was created, your body was also created. Guest: And what is my beginning? Prabhupāda: That you may know. I cannot say. Devotee: Could be anything. (laughter) Guest: But you were existing. Devotee: Could be any form. Prabhupāda: And what business I have got to "What is the beginning?" Guest: Yes, I am asking myself, because I don't know what was my beginning. Prabhupāda: Beginning . . . in the beginning you have got some body. There are 8,400,000 species of life, body. So you have taken your beginning in any form of these bodies, and you are enjoying this material world. Guest: Then how many incarnations do I need to take . . . *Prabhupāda: There is no need. Unless you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this process will go on unlimitedly. And if you want to stop this repeated birth and death, then you understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "One who understands Me really, he only does not take birth again after quitting this body." Then where does he go? Is he finished? No. Mām eti : "He comes to Me." So you have to finish this business of repeated birth and death in millions and trillions of species of life by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by understanding Kṛṣṇa. Then your life is perfect. Otherwise you are spoiling your life. Guest: If by understanding Kṛṣṇa then I don't need to be born again, is it true that those people, or these beings, who are angels are the ones who have understood Kṛṣṇa, or what? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Śyāmasundara: Angels? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not angels? They have got their spiritual form, and they enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, mām eti : "He comes to Me." Then he enjoys with Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa is playing with His cowherd boys, His gopīs and so many. He has got His paraphernalia. Guest: And what work do they do, these angels? What work do they do? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): What work do angels do? Prabhupāda: Angels are like you. They are little enjoying, but better. Just like Europeans. They may be enjoying a better material life, in the nice dress, or nice form. That's all. They are like that. But it is not that they are free from birth, death, old age and disease. Śyāmasundara: He was asking that when we become liberated from . . . when we go to Kṛṣṇa, do we become angels? Prabhupāda: The angel is just like here, a beautiful man is called angel, but that does not mean he does not die or he does not suffer. Guest (3): "Angels" in the accepted sense of the term are something superior to mankind. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are superior. Many. In other planetary system there are many superior beings. They are living ten thousands of years. Just like you are living for hundred of years, and the ant is living, say, four hours. So you are superior to the ant. Guest (3): But that is not the eternal form? Prabhupāda: No. Either you die after hundred years or hundred millions of years, you die. That is not eternal life. Brahma dies, you cannot calculate even his one day. *Sahasra*-yuga —forty-three lakhs , forty-three hundreds of years . . . hundred thousands of years, they are multiplied by one thousand. That becomes Brahma's twelve hours. Then add another twelve hours, that becomes Brahma's one day. Similarly, thirty days; similarly twelve months. In this way he lives also hundred years, but his hundred years and your hundred years, different. But he also dies. He also dies. Guest: Now one time you were calling this word "die." You are talking about the body changing. Prabhupāda: "Die" means change of body. Guest: Is it His will that we all mimic Kṛṣṇa . . . we call it Kṛṣṇa? Is it His will that we die or we have that change, or we even have existed? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the will of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: And why? Prabhupāda: Why? Because you wanted it. That I have already said. You wanted to become an ant; Kṛṣṇa has given you the body of ant. Guest: Is He not kind? Prabhupāda: Huh? He is kind. Because you wanted, and He gives it. He is very kind. Guest: No, but if this is His will, to bring the disease upon man . . . Prabhupāda: No. You wanted a life which is full of these miserable condition—birth, death, old age and disease. Guest: And is He going to change everybody, I mean, through death? Prabhupāda: Not death. Death is not the solution. The solution is you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yo jānāti tattvaṁ (BG 4.9)—one who knows Kṛṣṇa. To know Kṛṣṇa, that is solution. Death—everyone is dying. Guest: But is He going . . . well . . . will mankind get finished in the world? Prabhupāda: That is not possible, because everybody is not becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore . . . Guest: There could be many who desire to live here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Many. Everyone has right to. Otherwise why we are preaching Kṛṣṇa . . . to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness and they are not becoming? Why? They want to live here and become kicked by this miserable condition of life. That is their desire. We are speaking everyone that, "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Your all problems are solved." But they do not do it. What Kṛṣṇa will do? Guest: So let me say then that by understanding Kṛṣṇa as the cause of Godhead, the same type of saying in the . . . well, say similar saying in the Christianity, that those who are . . . Prabhupāda: So we don't say that Christianity or Hinduity. We say try to understand God. You understand it through Christianity or through Hinduity or any nonsense thing. You try to understand. And if you can understand, then we take that process of religion first class. It doesn't matter whether you understand God through Muhammadanism or Christianism or Hinduism or Buddhism. It doesn't matter. You try to understand God. And if you have understood God through your process of religiosity, then your religion is first class. Otherwise you have simply wasted your time. Just like so many businessmen there are. Somebody is doing some kind of business, another body is doing another kind of business—but the aim of business is to earn some money. Then if one has not earned money, and he has done business, then what is the use? You may do any business, but you earn money— phalena paricīyate —and you have become rich, then I can say: "You are successful businessman." It does not mean that you have to do this business or that business. Any way you do business, you earn some money, then you are successful. That is material calculation. Similarly, you accept any religion—it does not matter—but you understand what is God. If you do not understand, then you are wasting your time under the stamp of so many religions. And if you are serious to understand God, then you should take such kind of religion which helps you to understand God. That is your business. Guest: The day before, you said about eating meat or killing animals. Now is it then wrong to . . . eating meat? Or if it is wrong, is there any particular meat or particular animal that is prohibited to be eaten? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are some creation of God, so you have got your own food. The tiger has got his own food. If you offer a tiger, a lion, a nice plate of fruits and vegetables, he won't touch it. Why? Because he has been allotted a certain type of food. Similarly, you have got a certain type of food to eat. If you violate the rule, then you disgrace God's regulation, and you become rejected, criminal. Guest: This means that the all animal has a . . . Prabhupāda: Your business . . . human being's business is to understand God, to become . . . to realize himself as His servant of God. So your business is to accept eating what God desires. Because just like our position, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we eat something which is taken by, accepted by, Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ " (BG 9.26), vegetables, fruits. *So we offer Kṛṣṇa grains, fruits, vegetables, and we take it. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me meat," then we shall offer Him meat and take it. But because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot take anything which is not eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our vow. So we have no quarrel with vegetarians. But if you want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, you must take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Guest: Another question . . . *Prabhupāda: Another thing is that if you are God conscious, if you know that every living entity is God's son . . . God says, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). He is the father of all living entities. Then you will see that, "Every living entity is my brother. How can I cut throat of my brother?" That is called consciousness. If you are really God conscious, if you think that God is the father of all living entities, how you can say that He is not father of the cats and the dogs and the cows and the . . . He is father of everyone. He is in different dress. Because you are in different dress, in black dress, is it the right of the white man to cut your throat? No. The God conscious . . . as soon as people become God conscious, "Oh, he may be in black dress, I may be in white dress—but he is also son of God, I am also son of God. He is my brother." This is God conscious. This is lacking. Therefore I am treating somebody lower than me and somebody higher than me—due to want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is lacking. I have got many Africans my students, of course American Negroes. They are equally living, chanting, dancing with these white boys. They have forgotten that "He is black and he is white," because they are not in the platform of this bodily concept of life. They are mixing. There are so many young girls, they are mixing, but there is no sex . . . (indistinct) So this is training, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything comes to perfect. And as soon as we speak from the platform of bodily concept of life, there will be no adjustment. It is impossible. Forget it. You may have United Nation and other things, but the controversy and the differences will go on. It is not possible. This is the only solution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just try to understand, those who are intelligent. Political, social, religious, cultural—all solution is included in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply you have to try to understand it, how it is so. That's all. Guest: And what is the minimum qualification? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest: What? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That is the name of, "Almighty" all the time. Prabhupāda: Not "Almighty"; simply Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on the street and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, just as we do. These boys, you see how they are chanting—Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Do it. What is the difficulty? You can do it and begin immediately the process. But you will not do it. What can I do? The process is not at all difficult. Anyone can take to it. But you won't do it. That is the determination. So what can be done? Śyāmasundara: Can we have some kīrtana , Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is very simple and can be accepted by anyone. But they will not accept it. What can be done? Guest (2): Main thing is because they do not know it. They don't know it. Not convinced by . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say come to class; try to understand. Then you will do it. Guest: Yes. A further question then: The fault is this. The questions might be based on their rules, you know, how they know about spiritual knowledge. So that's why sometimes we have to ask you some further questions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You are welcome. You are welcome to ask questions. Guest: Taking the first, that we all live according to God's will, and again we find if you try to tell others, say we Africans, if we try to speak with our friends and try to introduce another understanding of God as presented apart from what we have understood it from Christianity point of view . . . Prabhupāda: Don't go any point of view. Try to understand God philosophically. Don't be designated. Again you become designated. Guest: My question was this now: what answer could you give to a person who asks you that what wrong a person might have done to make him be born deformed, right from his mother's stomach, say? He didn't get accident during his other life, then was born deformed . . . (indistinct) . . . of the sort. *Prabhupāda: Desire. Desire. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . At the time of death, what you are desiring, you get the body next. Guest: I think there is nobody who can desire to be crippled, so that they will be born again as a cripple. Prabhupāda: Cripple may be due to father and mother's diseased condition. That is all right. Guest: Suppose there was no disease? Prabhupāda: Suppose there was . . . naturally, then nobody comes crippled. There are rare circumstances where the child is born crippled. Guest: Why does this disease have the tendency to have its effect on the child? Prabhupāda: Because the child gets the body from the father and mother. Guest: And who suffers? Not the parents. Prabhupāda: Therefore that can be understood that a white man's child is white, and a black man's child is black, because due to his body. Guest: If one is . . . if one died and is born again, do you mean that he has lived in this world before? Prabhupāda: Well, you may live in this world, in other world. There are so many worlds. Guest: But does one know where he lived in the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. This world is made of this matter. So anyone who lives, he lives in the matter. Either I live in the water or in the sky or on the land. They are all matter: earth, water, air, fire. Everywhere you live, you live in the matter. Guest: I mean does one experience the change? Prabhupāda: No, no. He forgets. He forgets. That is another gift of God. Suppose one has taken the birth of a hog, and last birth he was a king. If he remembers that, "I was king," then his life will be horrible. Therefore he forgets. Guest: But what does it mean? Prabhupāda: Yes, God gives him this forgetfulness. Guest: You mean Kṛṣṇa has got a store of lives? When religious people come back to the world as animals or . . . Prabhupāda: They become according to their desire: animal or man or demigod or . . . there are 8,400,000 species of life. So as he desires, he gets the body. Guest: But has He got a store, to keep all these lives? Prabhupāda: No. The store is this matter. Your desire develops this body. Just like if you have got store of rice, dhal , butter, ghee , you can prepare so many foods. So the store is these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. And from this store you makes different bodies. That's all. Guest (2): Do you develop immediately your material body, or material for leaves? Or you stay for some time . . . Prabhupāda: It takes a process. It takes a process. When you desire something at the time of death, so you are transferred to the semina of the father, similar father, and he injects the semina in the womb of the mother, and the mother supplies the material, she develops the body. That is the process. Your desire. When you desire a type of condition to take birth either as European or African or a cat or a dog or a human being or demigod, that is your desire. Guest (2): Swāmījī, how far does actions comes into effect? Prabhupāda: That is your desire. If you desire to have a body, so according to the body, you act. The body means your action. Guest (2): Some people say that suppose somebody is doing, I mean, is committing sins and all this, killing others, or giving pains to others, this and that way, then when he takes next birth depends upon his present actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Your desire . . . at the time of death you get a desire, a mental condition, according to the acts you have done throughout your whole life. Guest (2): Because desire can be a different thing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, not different. Generally you desire as you are accustomed to desire. Generally you desire. And similarly, if you become accustomed to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will desire Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: So according to the explanation, your explanation, there is a conclusive evidence that man has not started from a particular soul, which was at that time . . . (indistinct) . . . man is started from an unknown place. Prabhupāda: Mind is flickering. So you change your mind, you change your body. Guest: And where did this man come from? Because it is very funny. Everything that lives . . . Prabhupāda: How you know where everything comes from? Guest: . . . must have a beginning and an end. Prabhupāda: The things are there, and they are all coming from God. That's all. You should understand like that. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming from God. Guest: But I'm driving at . . . how did God deal with the formacies of the first person? How did He construct the first person? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: How did Kṛṣṇa create the persons, person? Guest: What was in the beginning. He says . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning was Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is the beginning of everything. Guest: Yes. But how did He get man into the world? Prabhupāda: How did he get . . .? Devotee: Man. Human beings. Guest: Were there human beings before, or what was in the form before human beings? Some people said that we were from . . . Prabhupāda: No. Always the 8,400,000 species of life are there. As soon as creation is there, the 8,400,000 species of life also created, according to the . . . the living entity, they are in this created . . . in this material world, since time immemorial. So one creation is not the only one creation. Creation is . . . the material world is, it is created, and again it is vanquished. Everything. Guest: Five things were existing first, could we say? Prabhupāda: No. Nothing existed. Nothing existed. These . . . existed . . . simply existing God. God was there. Then from His energy, so many things came. Guest: We can say that . . . say this book . . . Prabhupāda: I am the author of this book. I existed, so I have written this book. Not that it has come into existence. Guest: Then God must be very wonderful! Prabhupāda: He is certainly He's wonderful, otherwise how He is God? Guest: Because we are using the shape from time to time, and these formacies, and we are failing to know how He has brought man into the world. Prabhupāda: God's . . . you mean it is a form? (aside) What is his question? Guest (2): He says that God must be wonderful because we cannot understand His form, because sometimes we think in this way. Prabhupāda: Why we cannot understand? God, when God says: "Here I am," why you cannot understand? Guest: Well I don't understand Him, because He hasn't revealed this to man when He created us. This is where my problem is, you see. Because we come from the mother, we are born and die. Prabhupāda: You are part and parcel of God. Just like the sun: as soon as the sun is there, the sunshine is there. The sunshine is not created in another time. Try to understand this. Guest: Created. Prabhupāda: Sunshine is not created. As soon as there is sun, there is sunshine. That means sunshine is always with the sun. So you are part and parcel of God. God is existing everlastingly. You are also existing everlastingly. But this sunshine, when it is covered by cloud, it becomes dark. Similarly, when you are covered by maya , you forget God. That is a fact. Otherwise you are existing with God always. Therefore you have no birth and death, originally, as spirit soul. Your birth and death is due to this covering of matter. When you are covered by certain type of body, you think, "I am this African." Again when you are covered by some other body, you think, "I am this." You are thinking like that, but you are always different from this body. You are existing with God, but you have forgotten. Forgetting God, you think you are African, I think, "I am Indian," he is thinking European. That you have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: When I met the scientists last, they gave me a very perplexing idea. Prabhupāda: What do they know? First of all, what do they know? Why he shall not give perplexing ideas? Guest: They gave me a perplexing idea, because they told me man came from the waters. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Wherefrom the water came? Guest: Man developed it from . . . Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the water came? Guest: Water? That was made by God. Prabhupāda: Then God . . . it comes to God. What is the use of the scientist? Why don't you go to God directly? Guest: I am talking in terms of the origin of man, what they idea . . . Prabhupāda: That may be. That may be. So first there was ether. Creation, process of creation, is first there was ether, and then there was air, then there was fire, then there was water, then there was earth. This is the process of creation. Guest: Let me ask another question. I asked it before. You said that one is in, something, in and out, within and without. Which one of these is found more valuable by Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): He says, by Kṛṣṇa, the one who is inside or the one who is without? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is without and within. Guest: No, I mean to me, if I am within and without. Prabhupāda: Within you are real, your real self, spirit. Therefore within, you are important. Brahmānanda: We are within . . . Guest: Yes. Brahmānanda: . . . but Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is within and without. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is within and without. He is both. He is Absolute. He is Absolute; therefore He has no within and without. We are relative. We are now in the material world; therefore there is within and without. And when you become simply spirit soul, then there is no within and without. Guest: And is there a time that the soul has to stay in the spiritual world . . . Prabhupāda: So long we have got the desire to enjoy this material world, yes, we remain here. Guest: But what I mean is when we die. Prabhupāda: You die with your desire. That does not mean end of material life. You take another body—according to your desire. Guest: But my question is this, how long do we stay before we come back again? Prabhupāda: As soon as you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: There is no specific time . . . Guest (2): No. His question is this, suppose we die. Now the soul, the soul doesn't take another birth? Prabhupāda: He has to take birth. Guest (2): He has to take birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long he is desiring, he is dying with some desire, so he has to take birth. Guest: If he has no desire, then . . . Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. He has no desire means that he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (2): But then after some time if he desires again, then he can come back? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: But is there any period that one has to stay in the spiritual world because he's born? Brahmānanda: (aside) We need to close the curtains, because the insects are coming in. The insects are attracted by the light. (discussion about closing curtains) *Prabhupāda: Desireless— sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ (CC Madhya 19.170). When you become desireless, that is your freedom. Desireless means not to desire to lord it over the material world. Now we are desiring how to lord it over the material world. Somebody tries to be a very big businessman, somebody is trying to be a minister, somebody is trying to be this and that. Always they are being conducted by the desire. When that desires will be purified, that "I shall simply serve God, or Kṛṣṇa," then you are purified. Otherwise you'll have to take that particular type of body to fulfill your desire. Guest (2): I see the point, you know. I am . . . I am in such, I mean, going to ask again the question: Now when . . . Prabhupāda: (devotee enters and Prabhupāda acknowledges) All right. Wait. I am coming. Our philosophy begins higher up, because physical training of the body, but we say: "You are not this body." Guest (2): That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. How physical training of the body will help you? It will help you, just to concentrate the mind. Nothing more than that. So what is your last question? Guest: When you decided to pay us a visit, I believe you knew that you are coming to meet different minds. In other words, I believe this way, and you believe the other way around. Now what is your intention? Is it to teach us primarily knowledge of these all . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore there is training. We have got a different mind, like a child has got a different mind, but the teacher trains him to a certain type of thinking. He wants to play. The child wants to play, but the teacher trains him to study. The mind is changed. The child's mind, when he comes to his school, he's always thinking of playing. But the teacher gradually trains him to read, and he learns A*-B-C-D and other books, and he becomes educated. So you may be of different mind, but if you are trained up, you'll take to education and you pass the examination. That's all. You have to agree to take the training. That's all. Then everything will be all right. That is called initiation. You voluntarily accept a person who will teach you. That is required. That is the Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to be trained up in the transcendental science, one must accept a bona fide teacher. Guest: But is it . . . should we be correct if we say the name Kṛṣṇa is the name that God is known to us? *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, I have already explained, Kṛṣṇa is the name of God. Because Kṛṣṇa, this very word suggests "all*-attractive." If God is not all-attractive, then how He is God? If God is attractive to a certain class of men or certain class of living entity, then how He can be God? Therefore this is the perfect name of God—"all-attractive." Guest: Otherwise He has got thousands of names. Prabhupāda: Thousands of names. God has thousands and millions of names, according to His quality. So He has got unlimited quality; *therefore He has got unlimited names. But this is the perfect name, because it comprehends all the qualities—"all*-attractive." (pause) So we shall . . . later on. Guest: We can do the kīrtanas and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) (end) Conversation -- September 22, 1971, Nairobi *Prabhupāda: Somewhere in the world somebody will say it is half*-past twelve, somebody will say half-past seven, somebody will say . . . so many, twenty-four hours. So the sun is the same one, but in one place they will say it is half-past six, in another place it is half-past seven. How it is going on? In our calculation this sun, as you have seen, this half-past five sun, you cannot make it half-past eight. But it is half-past eight also . . . Guest: Elsewhere. Prabhupāda: . . . at the same time. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if it is possible for an ordinary material thing like that, why it is not possible God, the Absolute, to become a child and a youth at the same time, simultaneously? Why is it not possible? Your question is how God became child. So my answer is God is child and youth at the same time. That is God . . . (indistinct) Guest: And I agree God is in children and in . . . Prabhupāda: Not in children. God is child Himself and youth Himself at the same time. It is not that . . . I am not saying that sun is revealed this time. Sun is there in the sky. But still the times are different. Guest (2): That means that God can reveal Himself in many different forms. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Vedas : advaitam. Advaita means one. Dvaita means dual. But He is advaita . He is one. Acyuta , infallible. Advaitam acyutam. Anādi : He has no beginning. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Still He has got millions of forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ. Purāṇa means the oldest. Because everything has come from God, then God must be oldest. *Just like you have come from your father, your father must be older than you, your grandfather must be older than him. Similarly, if God is the original person, then He must be the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ. Purāṇa , the oldest. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca : and at the same time He is youthful. Just like in Kṛṣṇa book, you see. He is fully youth, although He is the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam . Guest: Which is . . . who is Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . .? Who is Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): Oh, the one in blue. And the other one? Prabhupāda: Rādhārani—His consort. Consort. Guest (2): Consort. Prabhupāda: His pleasure potency. Guest: So you think Kṛṣṇa is a living God? Prabhupāda: God is always living. Guest: He is in this world, not in another special place? Prabhupāda: In another place also. That is God. Guest: Another place also? Prabhupāda: Just like you are sitting. You are not in your office, not your home, but God can be here and everywhere. That is God. Just like the sun is here, and ten thousand miles away you ask somebody, he will say: "Yes, the sun is here." How it is possible? But it is fact. It is shining here, and the Western countries in Europe you ask, "Where is the sun?" they will say: "Yes, here." How it is possible? At noontime in your country, ask anyone five thousand miles away, ten thousand miles away, like that, "Where is sun?" And they will say: "It is on my head." How it is possible? So if it is possible for a material thing, how much it is greatly possible for God. He is the Supreme. That is knowledge. Guest: Is God having a material construction? Prabhupāda: No. That is the difference. Material world you have got material construction. You cannot be simultaneously here and in your office. Guest: So the material construction . . . I mean is my body is materially constructed. That is what I am referring to. And I was asking whether God . . . Prabhupāda: God's body is not materially constructed. Your present body is materially constructed. Therefore I say that you are covered by the material body; *but you are not material. These things are explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. Guest: But if Kṛṣṇa is God, how it is that His humans have a material construction of the body? *Prabhupāda: Just to make your seeing possible. Just like, here is God—Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. He is God, but because we cannot see God, He has kindly appeared just suitable for my seeing. That is His mercy. Guest: And is He actual to be photographed? Prabhupāda: Why not? Guest: Because He is photographed here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And not only that. Here, I realized . . . *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. God can appear in different places, because He is omnipotent, all*-powerful. Because you cannot see God with your eyes; therefore He appears before you in such a form that you can see Him. Just like the whole world, you cannot see some . . . (indistinct) . . . if there is a map you can see here is London, here is Germany, here is river. You can see the river in the map. The map is made in such a way that it is possible to see the whole world on your hand. Is it not? *Then God cannot make Himself easily accessible to you by His mercy? Then what is His all*-merciful? If He appears to be visible by you, it can be fault on the part of God? That is . . . (indistinct) . . . He appears in a form so that you can see, you can render your service. God is everywhere; that's all right. But unless He appears before you in a form, how you can render your service? So just like post office box, mailbox. So it is post office? The mailbox, you put your letter on the street. Guest (2): A part of post office. All post office property. Prabhupāda: No, it is post office, practically. Because you are putting your letter there, it is going to the destination. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, if the post office gives you some facility to become a small post office, so why God is unable to become small so that you may render your service? Why you say that He cannot? That is God is under your law, that He cannot. If you say: "Ah, here is a small box; it cannot be post office. Post office is very big," is that very good argument? So if it is possible how the post office, why it is not possible for God to become just in the form you can handle? It is God's mercy, but He accepts everything what you serve. This is called omnipotency. *Bhagavad*-gītā describes. He says that, "I have got My hands everywhere. I have got My eyes everywhere. I have got My legs everywhere." Simply you have to catch where is God's hand, where is God's legs. Just like electricity is everywhere. The electrical appliance has captured the electricity. Similarly, God is everywhere; simply you have to know the art how to catch His legs, His legs and hands. Guest: As if you have just come to the . . . at least we are thinking something about God. Had we not tried ourselves, we would have not been here. *Prabhupāda: So you try to understand there is a big science of God, bhagavat*-jñāna , bhagavat tattva . That is explained preliminarily in Bhagavad-gītā . You try to understand. You'll understand what is God. Śyāmasundara: What is the relationship of Jesus Christ? Prabhupāda: That is different. Jesus is the son of God. He says, "I am son of God." So we accept him as son of God. Guest: It now appears that we are going to concentrate on serious studies. And we have misunderstood Kṛṣṇa before. Not now. Now we have accept Kṛṣṇa as God Himself. Particularly . . . (indistinct) . . . and myself, I did not understand Kṛṣṇa as God before. I took Him just as the Christians take Jesus in the Christian religion. So I took Kṛṣṇa as, well, something like the . . . (indistinct) . . . as the Christians, in the Hindu religion. Now . . . this means now we are going to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa Himself, and then will that also carry you the all knowledge of the Hinduism and all these things? State religion? Prabhupāda: Well, our religion is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—to understand Kṛṣṇa. And to understand Kṛṣṇa means to understand everything. In course of understanding Kṛṣṇa, you will understand everything. Guest: And does it mean that I have to understand, say, all about other, say, say like the Śiva or the Durgā, and all these . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you understand Kṛṣṇa . . . just like if you understand what is milk, you can understand what is milk products. Lord Śiva is said in the Vedic language, just like curd. Guest: Curd. Prabhupāda: Curd, yogurt. What is this yogurt? It is milk. Is it not? Is it not? Similarly, the description of Lord Śiva is there in the Vedic literature: Kṣīraṁ means milk. As it is combined with some sour chemical it becomes curd— dadhi . Dadhi , yogurt. It has no other source. Similarly, when Lord, the Supreme Lord, generates this material world, He is called Lord Śiva. Therefore just like yogurt is milk, but milk is not yogurt, similarly Lord Śiva is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is not Śiva. Or Kṛṣṇa is Lord Śiva, but Śiva is not Kṛṣṇa. You can understand easily also, just like your body is your father's body, but you are not your father's body. So you will understand all these things. If you try to understand Kṛṣṇa only, then you will become fully aware of everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Does the word Kṛṣṇa got particular meaning, the word Kṛṣṇa ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive. When one becomes attractive . . . have you got any idea what are the qualification of attraction? Now, suppose you are president. If president comes here, everyone will stand up—attraction. Why? What is the qualification? Guest: Well, it goes from . . . sort of a . . . (indistinct) . . . called greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got some great power within the state. Therefore power is one of the qualification of attraction. Śyāmasundara: He is famous. Prabhupāda: He is famous. That is quality of attraction. If he is not beautiful . . . but God is beautifuller; therefore there is attraction. A president may be president in his country, but he'll never be a wise man. But God is wise. God is fully wise, God is fully beautiful, God is fully strong, God is fully rich, God is fully renounced. This is God's creation, but you cannot see God personally here throughout the whole universe. *How . . . (indistinct) . . . so He has created . . . we are after a little more piece of land and fight, and God has created so many planetary systems, and He doesn't care for it. Just see how much renunciation. If I create a small house like this, I become so much attached that I can sacrifice my whole life for this. But God has created the whole universe— ananta*-koṭi , innumerable universes—and He has no attachment for them. That is called renunciation. *So who can be more than God a renounced person? Who can be richer person? Who can be powerful person? Asamordhva . Another name of God is Asamordhva—nobody is equal to Him, nobody is greater than Him. That is called asamordhva—ūrdhva means greater, asama means equal . . . sama . Sama means equal. Sama means negative, none. Asama , "non*-equal." Amordhva , not for them. Everyone is under Him. It may be Lord Śiva, it may be Lord Brahmā, it may be Lord Viṣṇu even—everyone is under Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā : *You'll find in this Bhagavad*-gītā : mattaḥ —"above Me"; *para*-taram —"greater." Mattah-parataram; na anyat —"nothing else." Nothing else is greater or equal to Kṛṣṇa. Then how Lord Śiva can be equal to Kṛṣṇa? Nobody can be equal to Kṛṣṇa. That is God: nobody is equal to Him, and nobody is greater than Him. "God is great" means that nobody is greater than Him. So you have to find out who is that person who is greater than everyone. And that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Paramaḥ means supreme; īśvaraḥ means controller. You are also controller. You are in your office, you are controlling your assistants, some clerk. Is it not? So you are controller, every one of us, controller. But we are not absolute controller. I am controller, but I have got another controller over me. In this way go on studying: controller, controller, controller, controller, and you come to the Supreme Controller—that is God. He controls everyone, but nobody controls Him. That is God. Guest: And is this the only time that the Kṛṣṇa has revealed Himself to man? I mean, from our present books we know when Kṛṣṇa was born, and so we know that God as Kṛṣṇa revealed Himself to man. Was that the only time, or has He ever revealed Himself before? Prabhupāda: Before. Many, many times. Guest: And after? Prabhupāda: After also. Just like the sunrise was many, many times before my birth, and it will continue to rise after my death. Guest: And after this? *Prabhupāda: I am simply a small fragment in this creative world world. What is my identity, say for fifty years, sixty years, hundred years? But we get from the history twenty thousand years ago, at the time of sunrise such*-and-such things happened. So sun was rising twenty thousand years before my birth, so similarly the sun will continue to set or rise twenty thousand years after also. So God appears like that. He has got a particular time to appear in this universe. That is also stated in the śāstras : *In Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find. *So everything is there in śāstra . You have simply to know it. That's all. Nothing is to be concocted or manufactured. Everything is there. All answers are there. Simply you have to find out. You have to make your questions, and you will find your answers in the Bhagavad-gītā . Just Kṛṣṇa says, in the First Chapter you'll find, when Krsna says to Arjuna that, "I spoke this philosophy to sun*-god some millions of years ago," so Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, You are my friend. You were born; *You are contemporary. How is that? How can I believe that You spoke to sun*-god millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered, "Both you and Me took birth many, many times, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." That is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say what you were in your previous birth. That is living entity. But Kṛṣṇa can say, many millions of His births or appearances before, what He was doing, exactly at what time. That is Krsna. Guest: And how old was Kṛṣṇa, say, when He died? *Prabhupāda: He died at the . . . not died. Nobody dies. You also do not die. Nobody dies. So He left this world at the age of hundred and twenty*-five years. Guest: Did He have any family? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And was He . . . was it correct that God could have family attachments in this world? Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: Is it correct that God should have family attachments in this world? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why God should be bereft of His family attachments? Guest: Well, taking into consideration that we are all His children, was it necessary for Himself to have, say, a particular family as we are having our families? Because we are human beings, and He Himself is God. *Prabhupāda: He is playing the part of a human being. You should remember that. He is not human being, but a foolish man takes Him as a human being. I have already told you that God appears in a form so that we can transact with Him—we can talk with Him, we can mix with Him. Unfortunately, as soon as He does so, I take Him as one of us. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). Mūḍhā means rascals, asses. "They deride upon Me because I play with them as human being." "Without knowing the background of My past . . ." When we accept Kṛṣṇa as one of us, then we become mūḍhā , rascal, because we have no full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. How we can have full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? But by His causeless mercy He comes before us just like ordinary human being, but at the same time He keeps His position as God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was amongst the human society, He kept His position as God, but He played as a human being. Just like when He was a boy of seven years old He lifted the hill with the little finger of His left hand, Govardhana Hill. Guest (2): Still He is there. Still He is there, with His left finger, holding up like this. Prabhupāda: Still. So although He was playing as a human child, He kept His godly power intact. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . could afford just like a forest. When we go there, still you know some ladies are putting red marks here. When they go on the hill, just they put like this red mark even now, today. Even today, if you go to India you will find that place . . . (indistinct) . . . is there in the forest. *Prabhupāda: So God, although appears before us as a human being, we should not . . . those who are in the knowledge of God, they will know that He is playing as human being, but He is God—by His action, by His education, by His knowledge, by His beauty, by His richness, by His everything. Just like the Bhagavad*-gītā spoken by Kṛṣṇa. This book Bhagavad-gītā is read not by the Hindus or Indians but all over the world, very seriously, because it is the knowledge given by God, and the people are interested. Guest (2): (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, but we have to study both paths . . . (indistinct) . . . just like God comes before us as a human being, but He is not a human being. He is God. And when necessary He shows His godly form. Guest: What is the difference between the . . . you know, it's now coming to picture, or it is just beginning to picture to me that God is being divided by mankind in one way or another. There are denominations combining God as one in three . . . the Trinity, they call it? Prabhupāda: The God . . . the humankind is dividing amongst themselves. Guest: They are dividing God . . . Prabhupāda: But why the human being is dividing amongst themselves? "You are African, I am Indian, he is American, he is this . . ." Why they are divided? Why they are dividing this humankind? Why don't you answer this? The human society, why they are dividing the humankind, that, "Here is Asians," "They are Africans," "They are Europeans"? Why they are dividing? Guest: Well, they are divide partly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somehow or the other they are dividing. Is it not? Some way or other they are dividing. Guest: They are dividing. *Prabhupāda: So that is their business. They are . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore they divide God. (laughter) Therefore when one does not divide: paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). When they become without any division, that is knowledge. That is real knowledge. Guest: Is Kṛṣṇa the very, very, very God? The very, very, very God? Prabhupāda: First of all your answer is why God is divided. Try to understand. That a human being, his . . . (indistinct) . . . is to divide; therefore he has divided God. God is not divided. Guest: I have understood . . . (indistinct) . . . is Kṛṣṇa the very, very God human beings believe in? Be he a believer or not, but he knows that is one very, very God, living God? Prabhupāda: Who knows that there is a God? Who knows? Guest: Man. Prabhupāda: Man. Yes. So there is a God. That's nice. There must be God. Just like we are sitting in this room, we know this room has a proprietor, this house has a proprietor. We are in Africa we know that this Africa is the property of the African people. So there is a president. Similarly, this whole universe, why there is not a president and proprietor? What is the difficulty to understand? It is simply bigger. Just like this neighborhood is bigger than this room, and this your Nairobi city is bigger than this neighborhood, and the country is bigger than Nairobi. Similarly bigger, bigger, bigger, but in each and every this identity, there is a person, proprietor. So why not of this big, gigantic universe there is a proprietor? Why not? How can you deny it, there is God? You cannot know Him . . . I am a foreigner, I have come to your country. I do not know what is your president, but I know there must be a president or a king. Similarly, we may not know who is the proprietor of this universe—there must be a proprietor. That is to be concluded. There must be. That is God consciousness. It is not necessary that I must be acquainted with the president of Kenya, but I must know that there is a president. Similarly, it is not necessary that you have to meet God, but by your logical conclusion you must know that there is God. Now if you become fortunate, then you can know Him and see Him personally. And if I get the facility, I can see your president and talk with him personally, although ordinarily it is not possible; it requires some process—to go to his secretary, write him letter, I have to wait for the time. But it is not impossible. Similarly, God is there. You can see Him. You can talk with Him. But you have to take the process. That process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Therefore the most popular thing, idea, was . . . or, my question was based on how God came to have children, and He's the creator? Or is it not believed that we were created by God? Prabhupāda: But wherefrom this belief comes, first of all? Guest: Well, it is a very, indeed, as when one comes to fail . . . (indistinct) . . . but where we came from as human beings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be a source . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the idea. That is explained in Vedānta*-sūtra . When you enquire about Brahma, atātho brahma-jijñāsā —when a person becomes inquisitive to understand what is the Absolute Truth—the answer is immediately janmādy asya yataḥ : the Absolute Truth is that from which everything is emanating. So the Absolute Truth is the father of everything. So that is natural conclusion, that just like my existence at the present moment is due to my father; my father has created. So my father's existed, his father did. So go on researching: you will find the Supreme Person. That is God. Guest: There must be somebody in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how it is possible? Guest: But it is difficult to know when was the beginning. Prabhupāda: That we do not require. Guest: But as a human being . . . *Prabhupāda: Just like you know surely that you had a grandfather, a great*-grandfather, but you do not require to know when your great-grandfather was born. There is no need. But it is a fact that because you are, because your father is, because your grandfather is, there must be a great-grandfather. There is no need of "When my great-grandfather was born?" You need not waste your time in that way. Guest: But we know when Kṛṣṇa was born? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is born every day, everywhere. That I already explained. Just like the sun, the sunset and sunrise is going on every minute. Guest: Are His sons living still in the world still—children He left here? Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: (indistinct) . . . offspring now? Prabhupāda: Do not say that God is dead. God disappears. Śyāmasundara: He is asking if . . . are His descendants still on this planet? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are all descendants; we are all sons of God. Guest: Are we the offsprings of the . . . of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Originally, as spiritual sparks, we are part and parcel of God. That part and parcel of God, a small spark of spirit, is changing bodies. Therefore on the change of body we are making history. Born in, 1870, but died in 1907. But the spiritual spark is changing from body to body, as you have changed already in so many bodies. You were a little body like this. So where is that body? That body is not existing, but you had this body. That you can experience. You had a boy's body, playing very nicely. You can remember. But where is that boy's body? So from childhood you got a boyhood body, then you got a youthhood body; you will get an old body. The body is changing every moment. That is death—birth and death. Similarly, when this body will be finished it is called death. But this body is finished, but you take another body. Just like you have already taken from babyhood body to childhood body, childhood body to boyhood body. Similarly, when this body is finished, you take another body. That is transmigration of the soul. *So the soul is the same. By changing body we are creating the so*-called history: 1857 and 1907 and so on, so on, so on. This is a bodily history. Therefore, because Kṛṣṇa has got no material body, therefore He is eternal. He has no past, present and future. Guest: Swāmījī, if he says that way, that we are the children of the earth . . . (indistinct) . . . which is from Kṛṣṇa, then the world at present must be a different one. That means there might not be America, Africa, India, or anything like that. It will be one place, and then . . . *Prabhupāda: Actually this is our creation. This earth, earthly planet, is one. Actually, when Kṛṣṇa was here, even up to five thousand years ago, the whole world was called, that is known as Bharata*-varṣa, even from historical point of view. And it was being ruled by one king, from Hastināpura—five thousand years ago. Gradually the world has separated. Guest: How it is possible that Africans, Americans and Indians, they are children of the same God, or same . . .? Prabhupāda: It is our common home. Kṛṣṇa consciousness will teach us this, that this world is one home for the human beings on this planet. We are all God's children. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. But we have divided. But at that time there will be no necessity of passport or immigration and citizenship. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Simply you have to come to that knowledge . . . (indistinct) Just like India, as it is twenty years ago, there was no Partition. How the Partition has come into existence? Divided. Similarly, the whole world was one; gradually it has divided—for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If we know Kṛṣṇa, if you know that this planet is Kṛṣṇa's, we are all Kṛṣṇa's children, the animals are also Kṛṣṇa's children, then if you want something to eat . . . At the cost of its father the animal is living on the grass. So I have no right to kill him. He is my brother. He is living by God's grace. God has given some food—God has given him grass. God has given you grain. The animal does not take the grain, he takes the skin only. God has ordered in that way, that "Here is grain. You take the grain and you let the animal take the skin. And live peacefully." Why you are going to eat the animals? This is God consciousness. *And because we are not in God consciousness, clear, therefore we are thinking, "The animals are meant for my eating." And the animal is thinking in another way. I am thinking "Indian," and you are thinking "African"—because there is no God consciousness. And as soon as we come to God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : At that time you can see all living entities are parts and parcel of God, you are God's . . . Godbrothers. *That is the position at the stage of brahma*-bhūtaḥ stage, when you understand yourself, what you are. When you understand that you are not African, when I understand I am not Indian, when I understand that I am not this body, I am not this mind, I am pure soul, then that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Because the spiritual spark is brahma . *Now our concept of life is this body, material concept of life, jīva*-bhūta : I have become this African, I have become Indian, or I have become this dog, I have become this cat, I have become this king. Like that. This is jīva-bhūta . Just like you have got white shirt, you have got black coat, he has got blue coat and so on. But we are not concerned with the coats and shirt. We are concerned with as human being, as spirit soul. That is perfect stage . . . that is pure stage. When one is devoid of all designations . . . these are all designations—"I am African," "I am Indian," "I am European," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are all designations. So when we become free from all designations, then we are pure, and in that pure state we can understand what is God. So God is pure, and when you become pure you can understand what is God. So we have to adopt this purificatory method. That is all. Then you will come to that stage. Guest: And "Kṛṣṇa" is another name . . . can one translate the word "Kṛṣṇa" with another name of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be. God has many qualities. God is full of all qualities, so you select one quality, and you name God in that way. Kṛṣṇa is all*-perfect because He comprehends all ideas, all at once. Therefore this is the perfect name of God. Just like God is called Govardhana-dhārī. Because He has the quality to lift the Govardhana Hill, He is called Govardhana-dhārī. God is called Nandanandana—the son of Mahārāja Nanda. So what is that reason? The reason is that He appeared as son of Nanda Mahārāja, therefore He is called Nandanandana. So all the names of God, they are defined according to His qualities. But He has got all the qualities. So any name which is indicating to the quality of God, that is God's name. But this name "Kṛṣṇa" is prime, because it includes all the qualities. Therefore "Kṛṣṇa" is the original name. Suppose you name one God's name. Have you got any idea of God's name? Do you know any name of God? Guest: Mungu. Prabhupāda: Mungu. What is the meaning of this Mungu? Guest: "God." *Prabhupāda: God is addressed Mungu Just like Kṛṣṇa name has meaning—all*-attractive. So what is this word meaning of Mungu? Brahmānanda: Literal meaning. Prabhupāda: Literal meaning. Guest: Literal meaning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: When there is Mungu, that means the almighty God. Prabhupāda: That's it. So because God has got all power, therefore you call Mungu. This is God's name. That is all right. God has all power. He is almighty, all power. Therefore if Mungu means "almighty," then it is God's name. Devotee: Jaya . Guest: Now you say we don't die, we go . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't die is what you are saying. Then why do we have to get this changing of bodies? Prabhupāda: That is another question. This is nice question. Actually, we don't require to change bodies. We don't require. But we are put into certain conditions that we have to change our body. That is material life. In the material life, in the material existence, we have to change bodies, because we have got different desires, different consciousness. Now why there is fight between one nation to another nation, one body to another's body? Because they have got different consciousness. Is it not? I have got a consciousness, you have got another consciousness. Therefore I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, and ultimately we fight. Similarly, because we have now come to this material world for enjoying this material world, under different consciousness we are given different bodies. God is so kind, "All right; please enjoy." Just like a tiger, he wants to enjoy fresh blood immediately. So God has given, "All right, you take this body. You can enjoy." So God is very kind. As we want to enjoy differently, He gives us different bodies. Therefore we have to withdraw all these desires. We have to simply desire God, or Kṛṣṇa. Then you get godly body. That's all. Guest: Has that been proved? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: How? How is it proved that people don't die and . . .? Prabhupāda: That I already have said, that you have changed your childhood body. There is no . . . that body is gone. You cannot find out where is that body, but you know that you were a child in a different body. Therefore you are eternal, although your body is gone. Guest: But from my childhood to where I am at the moment, I changed when I was seeing almost. But then . . . Prabhupāda: Your body is no longer existing, but still you are seeing; therefore you are eternal. Guest: But the most surprising thing is the change that comes all of a sudden to an individual, and then that body is . . . Prabhupāda: That is just by law. You do not know the law, how it is changing, how it is transforming—that is your ignorance. But it is taking place, that's a fact. Because you are ignorant of certain process, that is not your knowledge. You should know how it is being changed. Similarly, just like you are in now this shirt and coat, when you go at home, then . . . (indistinct) . . . like this, now you are in this apartment and you go another apartment, does that mean that you are finished? You are somewhere. Similarly, when you give up this body you'll take another body. One may not know what kind of body he has taken, but he has taken a body. Exactly just like if you go from this apartment room, it is a fact that you have gone to another apartment. But I may not know to which apartment you have gone. But this is a fact, that you must have gone to another apartment. Guest (2): Unless one has got a total spiritual knowledge, or say . . . Prabhupāda: This is not very advanced knowledge. You are in the apartment of a small body, now you are in different body. Guest: It is just like when we were children, or say in that form, what clothes we were putting on we cannot recall now, because we have changed so many times. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you were a child, that is a fact. Similarly, you may not recall what you were in your previous body, but you were. That is a fact. Guest: If I go back to another question: You were saying, sir, what do you call it, the world, about five thousand years ago, the world was one. All people were ruled by one king . . . Prabhupāda: That you can understand from history, *Mahābhārata* . The history is there. There is a history called by the name *Mahābhārata* . Mahā means greater; bhārat means this planet. That you can understand from that book. There is a history; there is *Purāṇas* . You can understand. As you understand history by reading history, similarly you can understand all these things by reading all these books. Guest: If I could try to depart a little, because I am confused a little bit by the Bible or by this religion about God or . . . Prabhupāda: That is your selection. But Bible may be two thousand years old, but before two thousand years, what was the situation you cannot say. You cannot say that before two thousand years there was no existence . . . (indistinct) . . . that you cannot say. So if the human society was still there, so what was their religion, what they were doing? There must be some history. And that history is *Mahābhārata* . Guest: Are we classified by that . . . (aside) What is it called? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa Guest: . . . Kṛṣṇa, when this has started? Prabhupāda: But it is never started. Kṛṣṇa is always, just like the sun is always. Guest: The world was there . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can say: "Since the material world was started, this classification started." The material world means it has got a date of starting. But before this starting of material world, the spiritual world was there. Just like you are now constructing African state, but that does not mean Africa did not exist before your construction work. Africa was still existing before your independence, before your calling this name or that name. Guest: And what is the purpose of man living in this world? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Because he wanted to enjoy. There are so many species of life in your country: there are tigers, there are lions, there are elephants—and you are there, we are here. We have got different purposes. I have come here with a different purpose. I have come also to Africa, but my purpose is different. And the lion is also here in Africa, but his purpose is different. Guest: I think I have to put my question in a different way. Prabhupāda: Because you have got a certain type of desire, you are sent here. Guest: But let's say from the God's point of view, what is the purpose of man to live in this world? Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to live here. God is so kind. Just like a father, his one son is living there, and his one son has left home, but father does not like it. Father is saying: "You are doing this, I don't like it." This is happening. Similarly, you are all sons of God. You liked it, "All right," so the father, "You do it. Enjoy it." Guest: But is it the will of God that man should live in this world in this way? Prabhupāda: No. God does not say that, "You live in this world." God comes here, rather, to call you back to home: "Don't live in this world. You are always suffering. Please come to Me." God does not like that you should be here. Guest: But even the rich people are dying, they are not suffering. What sort of suffering are you referring to? Prabhupāda: Your idea is that rich people does not suffer? Guest: Rich people? Prabhupāda: Your idea is that rich people do not suffer? Guest: Well, that's what I'm asking. Prabhupāda: No, everyone suffers. Here, the rich or poor, or the animal or the man or the demigod or the . . . everyone suffers. Guest (2): Suffering could be different . . . Prabhupāda: Suffering is the meaning of this material world. Guest: I see. Prabhupāda: You may suffer in one way, I may suffer in another way, but nobody is free from suffering. That's a fact. Guest: Well I'm referring to the common suffering by the most people, when . . . Prabhupāda: The common suffering is birth, death, old age and disease. The animal is suffering from this, you are suffering from this, I am suffering from this, he is suffering from this—birth, death, old age and disease. When these four problems can be solved by scientific advancement, then you have gained something. But that is not possible. You cannot stop birth, you cannot stop death, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. Guest: That is in everything . . . (indistinct) . . . any life. Prabhupāda: That is real suffering. It may be manifested in different way, just like you have got some disease, but symptoms are different. Sometimes you think that, "My . . . I am feeling headache," sometime feeling pain somewhere. But disease is the one. Similarly, here the material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. So these four miserable conditions are manifested in different ways. So when you come . . . when you become purified from this material consciousness, then you become again to your original position, eternal position, na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20), never dies, never takes birth. Śyāmasundara: There is a state free from this suffering? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are free from all these things. You become purified. Guest: But still when you become, say, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what I understand, that suppose we feel as if we are this coat, if we realize Him, and we feel happiness . . . (indistinct) . . . everything, but still our body, physical body, it still remains old or it grows old. Prabhupāda: That's fine. But you are not this body. Guest: That we understand. Prabhupāda: You are not growing old. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you are identifying with this body, you are thinking, "I am African," "I am American," "I am Indian . . ." Guest: And everything goes wrong. Prabhupāda: Everything will be . . . if you are completely in understanding that "I am not this body," then you are no longer African or born Indian, no more Hindu, no more Muslim; *you are spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi —"I am Brahma." And as soon as you come to that state, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā : immediately becomes joyful. That is required. We are searching after joy. (aside) Aiya . So that is required: to be purified. As soon as you are purified, free from all designations . . . at the present moment the disease is I am feeling, I am identifying with my designation. That is my disease. I am thinking, "I am Indian"; somebody is thinking that he is Hindu; *somebody is thinking that he is European, somebody African, Asian. But these are all designations. So actually when we become designation*-free, that is called brahma-bhūta stage. And that is the stage of ānanda . Ānanda , or pleasure. Ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). *Every living entity or God is ānanda*-maya . Just like you see Kṛṣṇa's picture is ānanda-maya : He is enjoying. Here is the picture. He is enjoying. He is playing flute with the company of Śrīmatī Rādhārani. He is enjoying. He is young man. This is the real form of God— ānanda-maya . God hasn't got to till the ground for eating or make any business or any profession. So you can get also the same position along with God. You can go to Kṛṣṇa also, dance with Him, enjoy with Him. Ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt . By nature God and the living entities are enjoying, joyful. *So unless you come to that position of joyfulness . . . you must know that if you are diseased, you cannot enjoy life. If you are suffering from fever, I may offer you very nice, palatable dishes—you cannot enjoy it. Similarly, so long you are not in that ānanda*-maya position, you cannot enjoy life. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . The highest standard of happiness can be enjoyed by your spiritual senses, not by these blunt material senses. So you have to be purified from this blunt material consci . . . that you can feel. Just like when you are freed from feverish condition, you can enjoy these same foodstuffs so nice, "Ah, now I will enjoy." So here we are not enjoying. We are trying to enjoy, because we have got the enjoying spirit, but due to our diseased condition we are not enjoying. Everything is detestful, confused, frustrated. But we are by nature joyful—therefore we are trying to see, "Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment?" But I am keeping myself in diseased condition. How he can enjoy? Guest: That's true. Prabhupāda: So one has to be freed from the diseased condition, and then he can enjoy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—to make people free from the diseased condition of life. Guest: But I think you'll still allow me to say that I haven't got, well, clear answer to the question I was aiming to ask you. See, the thing is that—taking the fact the God is great, and He can do anything that He wants, now, my question would be: we see that we are going in this world, we die, and we come back through reincarnation and all these things, and when you are here we have got different, er . . . we are not all equal, some are rich, some are poor . . . Prabhupāda: Because of this diseased condition of life. Guest: Now my real question is this: God could see that there is no question of a source to be born into this world, material, and all these things, and so if He did not do that . . . God is present in the . . . (indistinct) . . . human being process and all these things. What is the purpose of God? Not making us live that we are . . . Prabhupāda: The purpose of God is that He enjoys. Guest: And suppose I am not enjoying? Prabhupāda: But you do not. You do not like. Just like God says: But you do not do that. Guest: Does it mean that there is no enjoyment . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, God wants that you enjoy. But He says, just like the father says the son that, "Why are you suffering? Come to me. I shall give you all protection." But the son does not do it. So what the father will do? Śyāmasundara: In other words, there's free will. Prabhupāda: Yes. God can do it by force, but He does not do it, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? He has given you free will. Or God is free, therefore you are part and parcel of God; therefore you have got free will. And if you are killed with that free will, then what is your value? Then you become a stone. Guest: And then is it true that some people are born lucky and some are born unlucky? Prabhupāda: "Lucky" means just like here we are sitting so many: somebody's income is hundred, somebody's is a thousand, somebody's is lakh . He has made his fortune. That is there. God has nothing to do with that. He has worked hard, he has got. That's all. Just like you, African nation, now you are trying to develop your country so you be also as rich as the Europeans and others. That will depend on your work. So these varieties of work will not solve your material question: birth, death, old age and disease. You will never be happy. That is the position. You may be as rich as the Americans or the Europeans, but that does not mean that you will be free from all disturbances. Therefore in our philosophy these are simply waste of time. Just like the British Empire was created—the Africans were being ruled by the Britisher as India was being ruled by the Britisher. They thought, "We have created very nice situation." But our view: they simply wasted their time. Where is that British Empire? Lord Clive is standing now . . . (aside) What is that road? Śyāmasundara: St. James Park. Prabhupāda: St. James Park. There is a stone statue. But he might have taken the birth as a dog. What this statue will help him? Nothing. But that is all: attraction. "Let me become a big statue in the park." (laughter) And that is called māyā . Guest: We know that all the God has got no beginning and no end. What is the beginning of mankind? Prabhupāda: What is the beginning of mankind? Guest: (indistinct) . . . take my own self. Prabhupāda: Yes. Beginning is the same. Creation, when this material world was created, your body was also created. Guest: And what is my beginning? Prabhupāda: That you may know. I cannot say. Devotee: Could be anything. (laughter) Guest: But you were existing. Devotee: Could be any form. Prabhupāda: And what business I have got to "What is the beginning?" Guest: Yes, I am asking myself, because I don't know what was my beginning. Prabhupāda: Beginning . . . in the beginning you have got some body. There are 8,400,000 species of life, body. So you have taken your beginning in any form of these bodies, and you are enjoying this material world. Guest: Then how many incarnations do I need to take . . . *Prabhupāda: There is no need. Unless you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this process will go on unlimitedly. And if you want to stop this repeated birth and death, then you understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "One who understands Me really, he only does not take birth again after quitting this body." Then where does he go? Is he finished? No. Mām eti : "He comes to Me." So you have to finish this business of repeated birth and death in millions and trillions of species of life by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by understanding Kṛṣṇa. Then your life is perfect. Otherwise you are spoiling your life. Guest: If by understanding Kṛṣṇa then I don't need to be born again, is it true that those people, or these beings, who are angels are the ones who have understood Kṛṣṇa, or what? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Śyāmasundara: Angels? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not angels? They have got their spiritual form, and they enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, mām eti : "He comes to Me." Then he enjoys with Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa is playing with His cowherd boys, His gopīs and so many. He has got His paraphernalia. Guest: And what work do they do, these angels? What work do they do? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): What work do angels do? Prabhupāda: Angels are like you. They are little enjoying, but better. Just like Europeans. They may be enjoying a better material life, in the nice dress, or nice form. That's all. They are like that. But it is not that they are free from birth, death, old age and disease. Śyāmasundara: He was asking that when we become liberated from . . . when we go to Kṛṣṇa, do we become angels? Prabhupāda: The angel is just like here, a beautiful man is called angel, but that does not mean he does not die or he does not suffer. Guest (3): "Angels" in the accepted sense of the term are something superior to mankind. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are superior. Many. In other planetary system there are many superior beings. They are living ten thousands of years. Just like you are living for hundred of years, and the ant is living, say, four hours. So you are superior to the ant. Guest (3): But that is not the eternal form? Prabhupāda: No. Either you die after hundred years or hundred millions of years, you die. That is not eternal life. Brahma dies, you cannot calculate even his one day. *Sahasra*-yuga —forty-three lakhs , forty-three hundreds of years . . . hundred thousands of years, they are multiplied by one thousand. That becomes Brahma's twelve hours. Then add another twelve hours, that becomes Brahma's one day. Similarly, thirty days; similarly twelve months. In this way he lives also hundred years, but his hundred years and your hundred years, different. But he also dies. He also dies. Guest: Now one time you were calling this word "die." You are talking about the body changing. Prabhupāda: "Die" means change of body. Guest: Is it His will that we all mimic Kṛṣṇa . . . we call it Kṛṣṇa? Is it His will that we die or we have that change, or we even have existed? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the will of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: And why? Prabhupāda: Why? Because you wanted it. That I have already said. You wanted to become an ant; Kṛṣṇa has given you the body of ant. Guest: Is He not kind? Prabhupāda: Huh? He is kind. Because you wanted, and He gives it. He is very kind. Guest: No, but if this is His will, to bring the disease upon man . . . Prabhupāda: No. You wanted a life which is full of these miserable condition—birth, death, old age and disease. Guest: And is He going to change everybody, I mean, through death? Prabhupāda: Not death. Death is not the solution. The solution is you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yo jānāti tattvaṁ (BG 4.9)—one who knows Kṛṣṇa. To know Kṛṣṇa, that is solution. Death—everyone is dying. Guest: But is He going . . . well . . . will mankind get finished in the world? Prabhupāda: That is not possible, because everybody is not becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore . . . Guest: There could be many who desire to live here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Many. Everyone has right to. Otherwise why we are preaching Kṛṣṇa . . . to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness and they are not becoming? Why? They want to live here and become kicked by this miserable condition of life. That is their desire. We are speaking everyone that, "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Your all problems are solved." But they do not do it. What Kṛṣṇa will do? Guest: So let me say then that by understanding Kṛṣṇa as the cause of Godhead, the same type of saying in the . . . well, say similar saying in the Christianity, that those who are . . . Prabhupāda: So we don't say that Christianity or Hinduity. We say try to understand God. You understand it through Christianity or through Hinduity or any nonsense thing. You try to understand. And if you can understand, then we take that process of religion first class. It doesn't matter whether you understand God through Muhammadanism or Christianism or Hinduism or Buddhism. It doesn't matter. You try to understand God. And if you have understood God through your process of religiosity, then your religion is first class. Otherwise you have simply wasted your time. Just like so many businessmen there are. Somebody is doing some kind of business, another body is doing another kind of business—but the aim of business is to earn some money. Then if one has not earned money, and he has done business, then what is the use? You may do any business, but you earn money— phalena paricīyate —and you have become rich, then I can say: "You are successful businessman." It does not mean that you have to do this business or that business. Any way you do business, you earn some money, then you are successful. That is material calculation. Similarly, you accept any religion—it does not matter—but you understand what is God. If you do not understand, then you are wasting your time under the stamp of so many religions. And if you are serious to understand God, then you should take such kind of religion which helps you to understand God. That is your business. Guest: The day before, you said about eating meat or killing animals. Now is it then wrong to . . . eating meat? Or if it is wrong, is there any particular meat or particular animal that is prohibited to be eaten? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are some creation of God, so you have got your own food. The tiger has got his own food. If you offer a tiger, a lion, a nice plate of fruits and vegetables, he won't touch it. Why? Because he has been allotted a certain type of food. Similarly, you have got a certain type of food to eat. If you violate the rule, then you disgrace God's regulation, and you become rejected, criminal. Guest: This means that the all animal has a . . . Prabhupāda: Your business . . . human being's business is to understand God, to become . . . to realize himself as His servant of God. So your business is to accept eating what God desires. Because just like our position, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we eat something which is taken by, accepted by, Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ " (BG 9.26), vegetables, fruits. *So we offer Kṛṣṇa grains, fruits, vegetables, and we take it. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me meat," then we shall offer Him meat and take it. But because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot take anything which is not eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our vow. So we have no quarrel with vegetarians. But if you want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, you must take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Guest: Another question . . . *Prabhupāda: Another thing is that if you are God conscious, if you know that every living entity is God's son . . . God says, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). He is the father of all living entities. Then you will see that, "Every living entity is my brother. How can I cut throat of my brother?" That is called consciousness. If you are really God conscious, if you think that God is the father of all living entities, how you can say that He is not father of the cats and the dogs and the cows and the . . . He is father of everyone. He is in different dress. Because you are in different dress, in black dress, is it the right of the white man to cut your throat? No. The God conscious . . . as soon as people become God conscious, "Oh, he may be in black dress, I may be in white dress—but he is also son of God, I am also son of God. He is my brother." This is God conscious. This is lacking. Therefore I am treating somebody lower than me and somebody higher than me—due to want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is lacking. I have got many Africans my students, of course American Negroes. They are equally living, chanting, dancing with these white boys. They have forgotten that "He is black and he is white," because they are not in the platform of this bodily concept of life. They are mixing. There are so many young girls, they are mixing, but there is no sex . . . (indistinct) So this is training, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything comes to perfect. And as soon as we speak from the platform of bodily concept of life, there will be no adjustment. It is impossible. Forget it. You may have United Nation and other things, but the controversy and the differences will go on. It is not possible. This is the only solution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just try to understand, those who are intelligent. Political, social, religious, cultural—all solution is included in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply you have to try to understand it, how it is so. That's all. Guest: And what is the minimum qualification? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest: What? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That is the name of, "Almighty" all the time. Prabhupāda: Not "Almighty"; simply Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on the street and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, just as we do. These boys, you see how they are chanting—Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Do it. What is the difficulty? You can do it and begin immediately the process. But you will not do it. What can I do? The process is not at all difficult. Anyone can take to it. But you won't do it. That is the determination. So what can be done? Śyāmasundara: Can we have some kīrtana , Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is very simple and can be accepted by anyone. But they will not accept it. What can be done? Guest (2): Main thing is because they do not know it. They don't know it. Not convinced by . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say come to class; try to understand. Then you will do it. Guest: Yes. A further question then: The fault is this. The questions might be based on their rules, you know, how they know about spiritual knowledge. So that's why sometimes we have to ask you some further questions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You are welcome. You are welcome to ask questions. Guest: Taking the first, that we all live according to God's will, and again we find if you try to tell others, say we Africans, if we try to speak with our friends and try to introduce another understanding of God as presented apart from what we have understood it from Christianity point of view . . . Prabhupāda: Don't go any point of view. Try to understand God philosophically. Don't be designated. Again you become designated. Guest: My question was this now: what answer could you give to a person who asks you that what wrong a person might have done to make him be born deformed, right from his mother's stomach, say? He didn't get accident during his other life, then was born deformed . . . (indistinct) . . . of the sort. *Prabhupāda: Desire. Desire. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . At the time of death, what you are desiring, you get the body next. Guest: I think there is nobody who can desire to be crippled, so that they will be born again as a cripple. Prabhupāda: Cripple may be due to father and mother's diseased condition. That is all right. Guest: Suppose there was no disease? Prabhupāda: Suppose there was . . . naturally, then nobody comes crippled. There are rare circumstances where the child is born crippled. Guest: Why does this disease have the tendency to have its effect on the child? Prabhupāda: Because the child gets the body from the father and mother. Guest: And who suffers? Not the parents. Prabhupāda: Therefore that can be understood that a white man's child is white, and a black man's child is black, because due to his body. Guest: If one is . . . if one died and is born again, do you mean that he has lived in this world before? Prabhupāda: Well, you may live in this world, in other world. There are so many worlds. Guest: But does one know where he lived in the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. This world is made of this matter. So anyone who lives, he lives in the matter. Either I live in the water or in the sky or on the land. They are all matter: earth, water, air, fire. Everywhere you live, you live in the matter. Guest: I mean does one experience the change? Prabhupāda: No, no. He forgets. He forgets. That is another gift of God. Suppose one has taken the birth of a hog, and last birth he was a king. If he remembers that, "I was king," then his life will be horrible. Therefore he forgets. Guest: But what does it mean? Prabhupāda: Yes, God gives him this forgetfulness. Guest: You mean Kṛṣṇa has got a store of lives? When religious people come back to the world as animals or . . . Prabhupāda: They become according to their desire: animal or man or demigod or . . . there are 8,400,000 species of life. So as he desires, he gets the body. Guest: But has He got a store, to keep all these lives? Prabhupāda: No. The store is this matter. Your desire develops this body. Just like if you have got store of rice, dhal , butter, ghee , you can prepare so many foods. So the store is these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. And from this store you makes different bodies. That's all. Guest (2): Do you develop immediately your material body, or material for leaves? Or you stay for some time . . . Prabhupāda: It takes a process. It takes a process. When you desire something at the time of death, so you are transferred to the semina of the father, similar father, and he injects the semina in the womb of the mother, and the mother supplies the material, she develops the body. That is the process. Your desire. When you desire a type of condition to take birth either as European or African or a cat or a dog or a human being or demigod, that is your desire. Guest (2): Swāmījī, how far does actions comes into effect? Prabhupāda: That is your desire. If you desire to have a body, so according to the body, you act. The body means your action. Guest (2): Some people say that suppose somebody is doing, I mean, is committing sins and all this, killing others, or giving pains to others, this and that way, then when he takes next birth depends upon his present actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Your desire . . . at the time of death you get a desire, a mental condition, according to the acts you have done throughout your whole life. Guest (2): Because desire can be a different thing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, not different. Generally you desire as you are accustomed to desire. Generally you desire. And similarly, if you become accustomed to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will desire Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: So according to the explanation, your explanation, there is a conclusive evidence that man has not started from a particular soul, which was at that time . . . (indistinct) . . . man is started from an unknown place. Prabhupāda: Mind is flickering. So you change your mind, you change your body. Guest: And where did this man come from? Because it is very funny. Everything that lives . . . Prabhupāda: How you know where everything comes from? Guest: . . . must have a beginning and an end. Prabhupāda: The things are there, and they are all coming from God. That's all. You should understand like that. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming from God. Guest: But I'm driving at . . . how did God deal with the formacies of the first person? How did He construct the first person? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: How did Kṛṣṇa create the persons, person? Guest: What was in the beginning. He says . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning was Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is the beginning of everything. Guest: Yes. But how did He get man into the world? Prabhupāda: How did he get . . .? Devotee: Man. Human beings. Guest: Were there human beings before, or what was in the form before human beings? Some people said that we were from . . . Prabhupāda: No. Always the 8,400,000 species of life are there. As soon as creation is there, the 8,400,000 species of life also created, according to the . . . the living entity, they are in this created . . . in this material world, since time immemorial. So one creation is not the only one creation. Creation is . . . the material world is, it is created, and again it is vanquished. Everything. Guest: Five things were existing first, could we say? Prabhupāda: No. Nothing existed. Nothing existed. These . . . existed . . . simply existing God. God was there. Then from His energy, so many things came. Guest: We can say that . . . say this book . . . Prabhupāda: I am the author of this book. I existed, so I have written this book. Not that it has come into existence. Guest: Then God must be very wonderful! Prabhupāda: He is certainly He's wonderful, otherwise how He is God? Guest: Because we are using the shape from time to time, and these formacies, and we are failing to know how He has brought man into the world. Prabhupāda: God's . . . you mean it is a form? (aside) What is his question? Guest (2): He says that God must be wonderful because we cannot understand His form, because sometimes we think in this way. Prabhupāda: Why we cannot understand? God, when God says: "Here I am," why you cannot understand? Guest: Well I don't understand Him, because He hasn't revealed this to man when He created us. This is where my problem is, you see. Because we come from the mother, we are born and die. Prabhupāda: You are part and parcel of God. Just like the sun: as soon as the sun is there, the sunshine is there. The sunshine is not created in another time. Try to understand this. Guest: Created. Prabhupāda: Sunshine is not created. As soon as there is sun, there is sunshine. That means sunshine is always with the sun. So you are part and parcel of God. God is existing everlastingly. You are also existing everlastingly. But this sunshine, when it is covered by cloud, it becomes dark. Similarly, when you are covered by maya , you forget God. That is a fact. Otherwise you are existing with God always. Therefore you have no birth and death, originally, as spirit soul. Your birth and death is due to this covering of matter. When you are covered by certain type of body, you think, "I am this African." Again when you are covered by some other body, you think, "I am this." You are thinking like that, but you are always different from this body. You are existing with God, but you have forgotten. Forgetting God, you think you are African, I think, "I am Indian," he is thinking European. That you have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: When I met the scientists last, they gave me a very perplexing idea. Prabhupāda: What do they know? First of all, what do they know? Why he shall not give perplexing ideas? Guest: They gave me a perplexing idea, because they told me man came from the waters. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Wherefrom the water came? Guest: Man developed it from . . . Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the water came? Guest: Water? That was made by God. Prabhupāda: Then God . . . it comes to God. What is the use of the scientist? Why don't you go to God directly? Guest: I am talking in terms of the origin of man, what they idea . . . Prabhupāda: That may be. That may be. So first there was ether. Creation, process of creation, is first there was ether, and then there was air, then there was fire, then there was water, then there was earth. This is the process of creation. Guest: Let me ask another question. I asked it before. You said that one is in, something, in and out, within and without. Which one of these is found more valuable by Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): He says, by Kṛṣṇa, the one who is inside or the one who is without? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is without and within. Guest: No, I mean to me, if I am within and without. Prabhupāda: Within you are real, your real self, spirit. Therefore within, you are important. Brahmānanda: We are within . . . Guest: Yes. Brahmānanda: . . . but Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is within and without. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is within and without. He is both. He is Absolute. He is Absolute; therefore He has no within and without. We are relative. We are now in the material world; therefore there is within and without. And when you become simply spirit soul, then there is no within and without. Guest: And is there a time that the soul has to stay in the spiritual world . . . Prabhupāda: So long we have got the desire to enjoy this material world, yes, we remain here. Guest: But what I mean is when we die. Prabhupāda: You die with your desire. That does not mean end of material life. You take another body—according to your desire. Guest: But my question is this, how long do we stay before we come back again? Prabhupāda: As soon as you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: There is no specific time . . . Guest (2): No. His question is this, suppose we die. Now the soul, the soul doesn't take another birth? Prabhupāda: He has to take birth. Guest (2): He has to take birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long he is desiring, he is dying with some desire, so he has to take birth. Guest: If he has no desire, then . . . Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. He has no desire means that he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (2): But then after some time if he desires again, then he can come back? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: But is there any period that one has to stay in the spiritual world because he's born? Brahmānanda: (aside) We need to close the curtains, because the insects are coming in. The insects are attracted by the light. (discussion about closing curtains) *Prabhupāda: Desireless— sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ (CC Madhya 19.170). When you become desireless, that is your freedom. Desireless means not to desire to lord it over the material world. Now we are desiring how to lord it over the material world. Somebody tries to be a very big businessman, somebody is trying to be a minister, somebody is trying to be this and that. Always they are being conducted by the desire. When that desires will be purified, that "I shall simply serve God, or Kṛṣṇa," then you are purified. Otherwise you'll have to take that particular type of body to fulfill your desire. Guest (2): I see the point, you know. I am . . . I am in such, I mean, going to ask again the question: Now when . . . Prabhupāda: (devotee enters and Prabhupāda acknowledges) All right. Wait. I am coming. Our philosophy begins higher up, because physical training of the body, but we say: "You are not this body." Guest (2): That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. How physical training of the body will help you? It will help you, just to concentrate the mind. Nothing more than that. So what is your last question? Guest: When you decided to pay us a visit, I believe you knew that you are coming to meet different minds. In other words, I believe this way, and you believe the other way around. Now what is your intention? Is it to teach us primarily knowledge of these all . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore there is training. We have got a different mind, like a child has got a different mind, but the teacher trains him to a certain type of thinking. He wants to play. The child wants to play, but the teacher trains him to study. The mind is changed. The child's mind, when he comes to his school, he's always thinking of playing. But the teacher gradually trains him to read, and he learns A*-B-C-D and other books, and he becomes educated. So you may be of different mind, but if you are trained up, you'll take to education and you pass the examination. That's all. You have to agree to take the training. That's all. Then everything will be all right. That is called initiation. You voluntarily accept a person who will teach you. That is required. That is the Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to be trained up in the transcendental science, one must accept a bona fide teacher. Guest: But is it . . . should we be correct if we say the name Kṛṣṇa is the name that God is known to us? *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, I have already explained, Kṛṣṇa is the name of God. Because Kṛṣṇa, this very word suggests "all*-attractive." If God is not all-attractive, then how He is God? If God is attractive to a certain class of men or certain class of living entity, then how He can be God? Therefore this is the perfect name of God—"all-attractive." Guest: Otherwise He has got thousands of names. Prabhupāda: Thousands of names. God has thousands and millions of names, according to His quality. So He has got unlimited quality; *therefore He has got unlimited names. But this is the perfect name, because it comprehends all the qualities—"all*-attractive." (pause) So we shall . . . later on. Guest: We can do the kīrtanas and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) (end) Conversation -- September 23, 1971, Nairobi (Introduction) Evening. September 23rd. Continuation of questions by African intelligence) Prabhupāda: . . . yesterday? Hmm? Śyāmasundara: (to guest) . . . yesterday you asked a question. Do you remember? "What is our beginning?" Is that it? "Why are we existing?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that question? Śyāmasundara: (to guest) You ask. *Prabhupāda: That I have already answered, that there is no beginning, because we are part and parcel of God. God is ever*-existing; *therefore His parts and parcels are also ever*-existing. There is no beginning. The . . . we are taking into account of beginning because we have got this material body. The material body has beginning, just like this material body is taken into account when it is born. But the spirit soul is ever-existing. The beginning is, means, the beginning of this material body. The spirit soul has no beginning, no end. Just like in this present life you can realize that, as I explained yesterday, that you had a body of babyhood, then you had a body of boyhood, now you have got a body of youthhood. The body is changing, but you are the same. You can remember when you were playing with other children in your childish body. The same you, who is still existing in this body, he was in that childhood body. Similarly, when you get old, old means your body gets old. Just like I have got. I am old man; I can remember my childhood, I can remember my youthhood. *So this soul is existing, but the body is changing. Therefore this soul existed before getting this body, and soul continue to exist after annihilation of this body. Is it clear? Therefore the soul is ever*-existing—there is no beginning, no end. The end and beginning is calculated in terms of this body, material body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated there that this change of body is going on, so when this body will be changed, tathā dehāntara-prāptir ( BG 2.13): āntaram , another. After giving up this body, the soul gets another body, dehāntaram . Dhīras tatra na muhyati : those who are sober, those who are educated, intelligent, they do not bewilder. They know that this soul has now left this body and it has gone to another body. Just like if I leave this apartment, any one of you will understand that I have gone to another apartment. Does not . . . because I have left this apartment, it does not mean that I am no longer existing. This is the position of the soul. We can experiment, or verify, this knowledge even in this life. The same example: I was existing in my childhood body, I was existing in my boyhood body, I was existing in my youthhood body. The body is changing, but I am there. So I will exist when this body is changing. Is there any difficulty to understand? Guest: (indistinct) . . . so one who then exists when the body is dead . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: He is asking if God still exists. Prabhupāda: Exists in exactly the same way. When your childhood body is no longer, how you are existing? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Well, after all, at the present moment you haven't got your childhood body. Similarly, when you will not have this body, why not another body? What is the difficulty? You have got experience in this life that you were existing in your body when it was baby. Just like this child: when he will grow up, the father, mother will not cry or lament, "Oh, where is my son? Where is my son?" He knows that "My son has got another body, but he is existing." Therefore the very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra. Dhīra means those who are sober, cool*-headed. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . *Exactly the same example, that this so many children there are, so when they will grow up the mother will not lament. The mother knows that, "My child is there—the body has changed." Another example can be given that if somebody has seen a child, say a one*-year-old child, and he is absent . . . it is my practical experience—one of my Godbrother, he left home when his child was one year old, and then after twenty-five or thirty years, his boy came to see him—he could not recognize him. Why? There is change of body. One had to introduce his son, "This is your son." "Oh!" (laughter) (laughs) Similarly, we are changing bodies, but the same son he could not recognize. There were many instances. Just like there is a story of Sohrab Rostam. You know? The father killed his boy. They did not know they are father and son, and they fought, and when the boy was killed, then his father knew, "Oh, he is my son!" (aside) Aiye , aiye , bhaite (Come in, have a seat) The body is changing, but the soul is there. Why Rostam lamented for killing his child? Because he could not recognize that "He was my child. I could not . . ." because he was long, long away from home. So he killed his child. This is very simple fact; *try to understand. This is the first beginning of spiritual education. Unless one understands that spirit soul is everlasting, nityaḥśāśvato 'yaṁ , na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre . . . (BG 2.20) That is the description in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that the spirit soul is eternal; *it does not annihilate after the annihilation of this body. And this spirit soul has no beginning. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. As God is ever*-existing, similarly, the spirit soul is ever-existing. Just like as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. *The example of the spirit soul is like the molecular parts in the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of so many atomic shining particles. This is natural. They are different. The sun*-shining particles, they are different. But because they are combined together . . . everything is atomic combination—in water also; in land also—similarly, the sunshine is combination of molecules, shining molecular parts. So as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. Similarly, as God is existing, the part and parcel of God, shining particles, spirit souls, they are also existing. They are also existing. So clear this part. Any one of you, first of all clear this part. That is the first stage for advancing in spiritual education. What is the difficulty in understanding? Guest: The only difficulty . . . I, when I die, when I die and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You don't die. That is my proposition. Guest: My form dies. Prabhupāda: Form, yes! Guest: Eh . . . Prabhupāda: Just like if you change this dress. Guest: Now the soul will be given to somebody else, probably. Is that what you say? Śyāmasundara: The soul will be given to somebody else? After using this body, the soul is given to somebody else? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody else . . . that I have already explained: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa, jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). According to your karma , according to your pure desire— karma means desire—at the time of your death, if your desire will create a situation, mental situation. Just like a businessman, always thinking of his business, a thief is always planning how to steal; a professor is always thinking how to make a solution of the mathematic problem. Everyone has got different consciousness. So at the time of death, the consciousness created by you by your present activities will carry you to similar bodies. The example is given, just like air flowing through a rose garden, it carries very nice flavor. Similarly, the air passing through filthy place, it carries very bad smell. Is it not? Eh? Similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego is very subtle, subtler than the air. It carries a certain consciousness, and that creates another body. The soul is carried by that consciousness and put into the womb of a particular type of mother through the semina of the father, and the soul grows body in the womb of the mother. Just like a tiger grows the tiger body, a man grows a man's body, the hog grows the hog's body. The body is grown in the mother's body, and when it is complete it comes out and becomes this body. Therefore this human form of life is a chance to understand his real position. In other lives other than human form of life, they are coming by nature's law, by evolution, transmigration—evolution, Darwin's theory of evolution. But the process of evolution are just like there is evolution in human life. There are 4,000 species of human life. They are 8,400,000 species of different forms of life, so other than human beings, there are 8,000,000 forms, and in the human form of life there are 4,000 human species of life. Therefore we find so many varieties; the two bodies will never coincide exactly, the different forms of life. So when one comes to the human form of life, never mind whether he is highly advanced civilized life or uncivilized life, the human form life has got a special privilege to understand his position. It doesn't matter whether he is European or American or Indian or brahmin or śūdra —these are of course bodily differentiation—but the human consciousness is there. Therefore if we utilize this human consciousness and try to understand our constitutional position, "What I am?" and if I can understand that I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God, then my life is perfect. So this understanding, this education, is not hampered. It is not that only the Indian brahmins will be able to understand and not the Africans will be able to . . . able to understand. No. Everyone will be able to, because that human consciousness is there. So my request to you African people is that you are now a growing nation; you try to grow from the solid basic principles of life, understanding, that spiritual understanding. Then your life will be very much successful; you will be an example in the world. At the present moment people are degrading, degrading in this sense: that instead of understanding his spiritual basis of life, they are understanding on the material . . . (indistinct) . . . which is known. He is not this body, but we are trying to adjust things on this bodily concept of life. The United Nations, they are trying to adjust things, but the basic mistake is there, that all the people are simply assembled there, they are in bodily concept of life, therefore they cannot make any solution. And actually that has happened. They are trying for so many years, but because they are in bodily concept of life, according to Bhāgavat they are all asses: *Persons, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . . . kuṇape : this is a bag of three elements, kapha , pitta , vāyu . According to Āyurveda , this body is developed on three material principles: kapha , pitta . . . pitta , vāyu , air. Kapha , pitta , vāyu . The Āyurvedic treatment is on these three principles. Their method of treatment is they can feel the pulse, and by the beating of the pulse they can understand how these three elements are working. And on that principle immediately there are formulas in the Āyurveda that if the pulse is beating like this, then the position of the body is like this. So they will enquire from you the symptoms, and if you say "Yes," immediately they will prescribe medicine. That is Āyurvedic medicine. So this body, you may not understand what is kapha , pitta , vāyu , but we can understand it very easily that if you dissect this body you will find some mucus, some blood, some muscles, some bones and so on. Does it mean that I am a combination of bones, muscles, blood, urine and stool? As such intelligence is coming from bones and biles and urine and stool? No. Therefore anyone who is accepting this body as the self is an ass. Can you combine intelligence by combining the stool, urine and blood and bones and biles and mucus? Can you make a human intelligence? Is it possible? Guest: No, I don't think. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. They are scientists, but if you analyze this body you will find all these things. So if these biles and the bones and the stool and the urine and blood can be found outside also, so if you combine them and produce an intelligence like a great scientist or great . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not possible. Therefore Bhāgavat says, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13): if we accept this combination of these three dhātus as self, then we are nothing but ass. *Therefore the first spiritual understanding is that we should try to understand that, "I am not this body." That is Vedic education: ahaṁ brahmāsmi , just to understand that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I am Brahma." And when you come to that understanding, then you actually become happy: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati, brahma*-bhūtaḥ (BG 18.54). When you come to that understanding of spirit soul, then there is no more lamenting and no more hankering. We are embarrassed by two things—what we haven't got we are simply hankering after it. Just like you African people or Indian people, they hankered after independence. They got independence—India has got independence—but where is the happiness? It is simply . . . (indistinct) . . . simply hankering. So, so long you shall be in bodily concept of life, these two things—hankering and lamenting: hankering after something which we do not possess, and lamenting after something which you have lost. *So as soon as you come to the spiritual understanding, there is no more hankering and lamenting. This is the science. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : at that time one can see all people, all living entities, equally—universal brotherhood. That is the real platform. So they are trying to establish the universal platform . . . brotherhood on the platform of these asses' understanding: "I am this body." But how the asses can make universal brotherhood? Is it possible? No. They cannot do. Asses are asses. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ. Kharaḥ means asses. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape . First of all, first education should be that . . . therefore our students formerly were sent to gurukula to have this spiritual understanding, brahmacārī that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." So where is the soul's activity? Perhaps throughout the whole world the activity of soul can be seen in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: no bodily activity. This boy, Brahmānanda Swami, his father has got very lucrative manufacturing concern. He is manufacturing the plastic boxes, very profitable business. But he has left . . . his eldest son, very beloved son, pet son, but he has left. Why? Because he has come to the spiritual understanding. He has understood that, "I have nothing to do with this material engagement." So unless people come to the spiritual understanding, there is no question of United Nation. It is simply bluff, or impossible. It is not possible. The first education is to know yourself, what you are: ahaṁ brahmāsmi , "I am the spirit soul. I am not this body." So it is clear that you are existing, your body is changing. Similarly, when this body will be changed, you will exist. What is the difficulty in understanding this simple fact? I am existing after changing so many bodies in this life—I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man, so I am now an old man—so when I give up this body, why shall I not exist? What is the difficulty to understand? This is first understanding. Śyāmasundara: If my real identity is spirit soul, what do I look like? What do I really look like? Prabhupāda: That you can understand by an analogy. You look like with two hands and two heads, er, two legs and one head. Unless you have got a head, you have got two hands, you have got two legs, how this body has developed with hands and legs? This body is called dress. Just like if you go to a tailor, he immediately measures your hands and legs and makes your coat and shirt. Similarly, unless you have got hands and legs and head, how this head and legs and hands have come out? Is it very difficult to understand what is your form? You can understand your form by the form of your dress. If this body is dress, then from the form of the dress you can understand your whole form. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. But very small? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. That is also described, that is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Ānantyāya : many, innumerable, unlimited number. Sa ānantyāya kalpate . These are Vedic injunctions. As you have got a spiritual body, very small, similarly the Personality of Godhead, He has got a spiritual body. (aside) You are going? Brahmānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All right. So there's no difficulty . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . to understand your form. You are not formless. That cannot be. Śyāmasundara: So this spirit spark, this very small spark, has form? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Hah. Prabhupāda: That spirit spark is in the microbic germ and in the elephant also. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: They have got different bodies, but the same spirit soul is there. Guest: Now which one of these two, body and spirit, makes probably good or bad activities? Is it the bodies or souls? Prabhupāda: Good or bad activities, there you have to follow. Just like in your state there is law book, and the law book it is said: "You do not do this. You do this." If you're doing . . . just like you are marking in your railway department, so there are . . . what do you call? Regulative books? Guest: Regulations. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Regulations. Prabhupāda: Regulation books. So if you follow the regulation, that is good. If you don't follow the regulation, that is bad. That is the standard of good and bad. So as you have got in the railway department some regulative principles, so why not in the big, gigantic universal state some principles which is given by God? *Therefore in the Bhāgavat it is stated, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītaṁ (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the regulative principles given by God. You cannot manufacture religion. Religion means regulative principles given by God—that is religion. Mr. Patel, is that all right? "The regulative principles given by God is religion." Is there any defect in the definition? Guest: I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Just like you have got regulative principles given by your railway authorities, is it not? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the regulative principles which are given by God, that is called religion. Guest: Which are these? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Which are these? Prabhupāda: That you find from the religious book. Just like the Christian religion books, the regulative principles is given, Ten Commandments: "Thou shall not kill." But if you are killing, then you are not Christian. You are violent, you're becoming sinful. Guest: Is this also, I mean, a material given in Kṛṣṇa's book or philosophy? Prabhupāda: In any book or philosophy. We are not bringing . . . religion means the regulative principles given by God. That is religion. Any religion you take—Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion—there are regulative principles. So if you follow the regulative principles, then you are following the, I mean to say, orders of God, then you are religious. So religious . . . different types of religions are created according to time, circumstances and people. Just like in Christian religion the first commandment is "Thou shall not killing." "Thou shall not kill," that means it was preached among certain classes of men who were engaged in matters of killing. Is it not? Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why it is commanded, "Thou shall not kill"? So there are different classes of men; therefore we find different types of religion. Where there are men very highly advanced, who have nothing to do with killing, their instruction is different. Their instruction is: "Just try to understand that you are spirit soul, you're not this matter." And one who cannot understand this principle, the primary moral principles are taught, "Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not . . . (indistinct) . . ." "Thou shall not . . ." So this is also religious principle; *that is also religious principle. Just like in pocket dictionary, this is called also dictionary, and the Webster's International Dictionary is a very big volume—that is also dictionary. But that dictionary is meant for a class of men and this dictionary is meant for another class of men. But both of them are dictionaries. Similarly, the different types of religious system is due to different types of men. But when you actually come to spiritual understanding, then you have to understand yourself, self*-realization: that you are not body, you are not matter—you are spirit soul. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all just try to put some question. Let us try to understand this. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) Weren't you asking also that which of these two creates good and bad activities—the body or the soul? Guest: What I don't understand, actually, is that whether it is the body which makes bad activities or good activities, or is it the soul itself which decides to make these good activities or bad activities? Prabhupāda: The body is the instrument. Just like if I want to drink this water, so this tongue is the instrument to taste it. And when I taste this water, my thirst is immediately gone. So tongue is the instrument for tasting this water. Similarly, if I want . . . if I desire some particular type of enjoyment, Kṛṣṇa, or God, gives me a type of instrumental body, and I shall enjoy. The body is the instrument. The Sanskrit word is called karam . Karam . Karam means doing. Karaṇeṇa. Karaṇeṇa means by the instrument, by the bodily instrument. So you are given. God is so kind that if I want, if I desire to enjoy something . . . I shall give you another example. You find that the hog, it eats, it eats stool. But it has got a different type of mouth. A tiger has got different type of mouth; *a human being has got a different type of mouth—so different instrumental body. That body is offered by superior management, daiva*-netreṇa. Daiva means superior, or godly; netreṇa , "by supervision." You are not the maker of your body. Is that right? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Your body is made different, my body is made different, his body is different. Therefore I am not the maker of the body. I can desire that I want to enjoy this type of facility, and God gives you a type of body to enjoy that facility. Guest: So should one believe then that one is born a thief, is born a murderer, is born good? The soul, is he so envious, born all these way? Prabhupāda: The soul is always good, but, just like the example is, just like fire and the sparks of the fire: fire is also fire, and the small sparks of the fire, they are also fire. Is it not? Fire . . . you have seen sparks of fire? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Are they not fire? Guest: No, not. Prabhupāda: But sometimes they fall out of the fire, and when it is out of the fire, it is no longer fire; it is extinguished. Is it not? You have seen in so many fireplace a phut! phut! There are so many sparks. And as soon as the spark out of the fire it is extinguished. A minute before it was fire, but as soon as it falls down, separated from the fire, it is no longer fire. It is fire, but the potency of fire, illumination is gone. Similarly . . . (aside) Come on. Similarly, we are also fire, but as soon as we have separated from God, our that fire quality, illuminative quality, is lost, the spiritual illuminative quality. But it can be revived if that spark, that particle of coal or carbon, if it is again put into the fire it will be fire. It will become fire. So by our desire to lord it over the material nature we have come in this material world, and God has given us facilities, that "You enjoy this material world to your best capacity." And we are doing that. That is hard struggle for existence. But we are not happy. Guest: Even if as you say that you have . . . I have a soul, and after having a soul like Russian, American and Dutch, now why didn't we have, I mean, all these different, different minds, or divisions . . . varieties and divisions . . . Prabhupāda: Different minds, that the constitution of mind. Just like my . . . you are sitting here, but others, they left. The mind dictated, "Oh, what is the use of sitting?" They cannot utilize the situation. So that is the business of the mind: accepting and rejecting. We sometimes accept something which we like, and we sometimes reject if we do not like. That is the way of mind. Mind's constitutional position is like that: accepting and rejecting. And that we are doing. We are accepting so many things and rejecting again. This acceptance and rejection is going on perpetually, being controlled by the mind. But when you become controller of the mind, then your life is successful. That is called in Sanskrit word svāmī , gosvāmī . At the present moment we are being controlled by the senses and the mind, and when you become actually the controller of the mind and senses . . . just like a gentleman has got good business, and he has given all power to the manager. The manager has become so powerful that he is trying to control over the master. But if the master becomes strong and controls over the manager, then it is nice. And if the master becomes indolent and is controlled by the manager, then it is dangerous. So at the present moment in our material existence we are being controlled by the manager—mind. Guest: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that you can make your mind friend and enemy. If you can train your mind, it becomes your friend so that you can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become liberated. And if you train your mind in such a way that it becomes your enemy, it drags you to the hell. Therefore the yoga system is an attempt to control over the mind. Yoga indriya-saṁyama (BG 4.27). Yoga means to control over the mind and senses. That is yoga . *By bodily exercise there is process, mechanical process, to control over the body and the senses, because our this tribulation, this condition, material condition, is due to my mind. I am desiring in different way. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ (SB 7.5.30). Adānta , adānta means uncontrolled; go, go means indriya . Therefore gosvāmī . Go means senses, one who has become the master of the senses. He is called gosvāmī or svāmī . The sannyāsī is called svāmī because he is supposed to have control over his mind and senses. *Because we are being driven to the hellish condition: adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ. Tamisraṁ means in the darkness of material body; *adānta , adānta means uncontrolled. At the present moment I am so . . . I am put under the control of the mind. I cannot control it. Therefore the mind is dragging me to the darkest region of this material existence. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ , punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām . And what I am doing? Repeating the same thing—chewing the chewed, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. So if we study all these statements in the Vedic literature then we come to the light. These are the facts. So human life is meant for this purpose—understanding. It is not meant for imitating or being carried off by the propensities, like the animals. The animals have no other business than how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sense enjoyment and how to defend. That is animal life. Animals are very much busy, "Where is eating? Where I shall eat? Where I shall . . .? Where I can stay? So how can I defend? How can I mate? How can I have sex life?" These are the complete occupation of the mind and senses of the animals. But in the human form of life there must be something extra; *therefore we find in human society there is some attempt for understanding God, and that is called religion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The Vedas are giving instruction. But what is the purpose of Vedas ? The purpose of Vedas is to understand God, athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.1), the Vedānta-sūtra , first verse. The human body should be utilized properly. It is a chance, otherwise, which glides down again into the circle. If we remain in the circle . . . just like this morning I was explaining, there is a circle; it begins from here. So you are advancing, you are advancing, but if you remain in the same circle, that means advancing means again come to the same point. *So by evolutionary process, from aquatics to plant life, to plant life to insect life, from insect life to bird's life, from bird's life to animal life, from animal life to human life, from uncivilized life to civilized life—this is called progress. But if the progress is in the same line, then again you become animal, punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām , again repeating, chewing the chewed. Again you become aquatics, again you become trees, again you become insects. This is going on. *So this is a chance. Human form of life is a chance to get out of this circle of repetition of birth and death, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya (BG 7.29). This is human life: to get out of the circle. We are advancing—that's all right—advancing the same. The circle means advancing the same. Just like in the world, around the world, if you go eastward, eastward, eastward, again you come to the west. That is not advancing, that is simply taking labor. Advancing means how to get out of this repetition of birth and death. That is advancing. Guest: I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: He has a question. Guest: I have a question. It has been said by others anyway, and excuse me to mention other religions, but when one is becoming Christian, the aim, after all, you be going in heaven, or if he is bad he will be probably in hell. Now this is the aim or . . . (indistinct) . . . of getting to . . . becoming a good Christian. What is the idea of Kṛṣṇa's philosophy? Śyāmasundara: (explaining) What is the idea of Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Just as the Christians believe that you go to heaven or hell after this life, what is the idea in Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes, the same philosophy. Kṛṣṇa says: "Come to Me," we take it as heaven. But if you do not go to Kṛṣṇa, then go to hell. The same thing I was explaining, that this human form of life is the point where you can go to hell or heaven. If you actually make progress, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), Kṛṣṇa says that, "After giving up this body you don't come again to this material existence, but you come to Me." Material existence means repetition of birth and death. So that is hell. And if you go back to home, back to Godhead, just like, then you'll get free from this repetition of birth and death. Because the Christian idea—either you go to hell or to heaven—that is not bad, that is all right. It is your choice, either you remain in the cycle of birth and death or you get out of it, go back to Godhead. That we are preaching, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there is no difference. It may be in different words, but there is no difference. It is the fact that this human form of life is a chance to get out of this birth and death or going gliding down to hellish life. Now you may have a very nice body, but what is your next life? You do not know. Therefore you have to know, "Now I have got this human form of body, I have got higher consciousness to understand, so I should understand what is my heaven and what is my hell—how I go to hell and how I go to heaven." So that statement is nice, the Christian, but is it said that either you go to hell . . . Guest: Or heaven. Prabhupāda: Or heaven. That's nice. Guest (2): Swāmījī, there's another thing, according to him, or what I understand also, that they said that heaven is somewhere up and hell is somewhere down, like that. Prabhupāda: That is also . . . Guest (2): But according to what you have said just now, we can take it also this way, isn't it, that suppose we, we just become with Kṛṣṇa by our thinking our thoughts even at present, and the pleasures we get, can that be heaven? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Because . . . Prabhupāda: Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they are not in this material world. Just like we are—we are not in Kenya; we are with Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are in Vṛndāvana. Guest (2): We are in heaven, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): And those who are suffering, those who haven't got ideas of Kṛṣṇa, or say those who are having some sort of . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, or God, is all*-pervading, so as soon as you take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are in Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : *Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ ca vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena , "unadulterated bhakti-yoga ." So one who is engaged in unadulterated bhakti-yoga — avyabhicāreṇa means unadulterated, pure bhakti-yoga —such persons, māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya sevate . Sevate means offering service. So that person, guṇān samatītyaitān . . . *Samatītya means completely being liberated from these three modes of material nature—goodness, passion and ignorance. Then what is his position? Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate : he is in the transcendental platform of spiritual understanding. As soon as one becomes in the transcendental platform of brahma , then his signs are that he is no longer lamenting and no longer hankering, and he is equal to everyone: Such person is eligible to enter into devotional service, or after these stages, one is elevated to the devotional service. And what is the effect of devotional service? "He understands Me by this devotional service," bhaktyā . It doesn't say by knowledge, by speculation, by philosophical speculation, or by karma or by jñāna or by yoga , but He says particularly bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . What kind of understanding? Yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ , "as I am actually." *So if you want to understand God, what He is actually, then you have to understand Him through bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . And when he understands fully, tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā , "after understanding Me fully in full knowledge," viśate tad*-anantaram , "he enters in the spiritual world." And as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, that is your normal life. If you don't enter into the spiritual life, if you remain in the material life, then you will have to accept one body after another, go on, continuing. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate : once he appears and again he disappears. And that is called saṁsāra , or repetition of birth and death. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving persons a real light, so that he can stop this repetition of birth and death and can go back to home, back to Godhead. Śyāmasundara: You said that God cannot be approached except through bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What does that mean, bhakti ? Prabhupāda: Bhakti means devotion. There are nine kinds of bhakti : This śravaṇaṁ . . . just like you are patiently hearing, this is bhakti . If you don't do anything—if you simply patiently hear and try to understand—your life is successful. You don't require any education. God has given you these ears, but you must hear from the real person. If you hear from others . . . because without bhaktyā , nobody can give you. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . Unless you become bhakta , you cannot understand God. And if you do not understand God, then what is the use of hearing from you? Therefore so many nonsense are coming. They have no information of God; there is no benefit. But because these boys, these European boys and the American boys, are hearing from the right source, they are getting immediately the profit. Because God cannot be understood without bhakti . So people hear from a pure bhakta , then you understand God. It doesn't matter what is your stage, but if you simply give patient hearing, śravaṇaṁ , then kīrtanaṁ . And as soon as you . . . just like these boys, they have heard—now they have come out for kīrtanaṁ , for glorifying the Lord. There he is the son of a businessman, and I told him that, "Take the business of Mr. Sharma." He denied. (laughter) He denied. He has no more taste any more. Just see, a young boy, a businessman's son, an American boy, a rich man's son. Why? Bhakti pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). This is the test of bhakti , that he has no more any interest. Viraktir anyatra syāt : immediately there will be detestful, "What is this nonsense?" Just like a hungry man: if you give him food he will eat, but when his hunger is satisfied he will say: "No more. No, I don't want." So bhakti is like that, true bhakti , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . If you understand God then you say: "Oh, no more I am interested in the material . . ." This is going on. Just like there is the case of Dhruva Mahārāja. Dhruva Mahārāja, he was very much eager to have the empire of his father, and he wanted, he wanted to please God to get this benediction. But when by his penance and austerities he saw God, he said: "Oh, I am fully satisfied. I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42; *Hari*-bhakti-sudhodaya 7.28): "My dear Lord, I am completely satisfied." Spiritual understanding means complete satisfaction. You come to a stage where you become completely satisfied. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : there is no more hankering, no more lamenting, no more this. But if you do not educate people to the spiritual understanding, this hankering and lamentation will continue. I give you one example, very practical example: just like our Indian people came to Africa that, "We go to Africa; *there is very good field of business." They are hankering. And now there are some inconveniences, they are lamenting. Their input ever improved, their hankering is fulfilled, but now they are lamenting that, "We have to leave because we are not citizen." Also they have riches, they have everything—so once hankering, and then lamenting, and more lamenting then hankering. (laughs) This is going on. Just like pendulum, tock*-tock-tock-tock . (door opens) Therefore Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Aiye . . . that, "Don't remain in this platform of hankering and lamenting. Come to a platform where there will be no more hankering and lamenting." So that is the business of human form of life: to stop this business of hankering and lamenting. The material life means the hankering and lamenting—once hankering and then lamenting. (pause) (aside to guest) Wherefrom you are coming? Devotee (2): We met this gentleman today . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): . . . at a real estate agent's office. Prabhupāda: I see. So you invited him. Devotee (2): Yes. Guest (3): First time . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. You try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy. Lord Caitanya's mission was that in every part, in every corner of the world this philosophy must be spread. So we are trying to spread this philosophy. You take advantage of it; try to understand it and then take it. That is our mission. Guest: Just I have got a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: Taking into account that we are not these bodies but a soul, what is the . . . what do we understand or say when we dream? I might dream now about probably . . . (indistinct) . . . what can we learn from that, as far as the soul is concerned? Śyāmasundara: Dreaming. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: What is dreaming? How does that relate to the soul? Prabhupāda: Dreaming is hallucination. You see? It is the business of the mind. The mind is creating some other body. Just like you are thinking that you have got a body flying in the sky. So even in dream you forget that you have got real body or another body, which is lying on the bed. So it is a scientific fact—the mind creates by different desires, different types of body—that's a fact—and we forget the previous body. Just as dream, when you are dreaming, you forget that you are lying on the bed, you are active in a different way. So similarly, we had our past body, but we have forgotten it, as soon as . . . death means forgetfulness. We forget our past, everything—that is death. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is death. When dreaming we are also forgetting this body, but because it is not death we are coming back again this body, and in early in the morning we rise up, we catch up our duties, "Oh, we have to do this, I have to go there," and so on. But at night when dreaming you forget everything. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So this dreaming is another sample of death. Guest: Sample of death? Prabhupāda: Death. And as you are dreaming at night, as this is night dream, this our material life is day dream. It is also dream. Because what we create in the dream, that does not exist. Is it not a fact? Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: It exists for a few minutes only. So this dream also exists for a few years, that's all. This is also dream, it is simply for few years. But the who is dreaming, that is spirit soul. So we have to understand and come to that spiritual platform. That is your real business—not dreaming, either night or day. That is not your business. *Just try to understand. As dreaming at night is for a few minutes—five minutes, ten minutes or half an hour utmost, then it breaks—everything is lost—similarly, this material life is also dreaming for years, say for fifty or sixty or say hundred years, any, everything, mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Mṛtyuḥ means taking away everything what you have created by dreaming. *As soon as this body is changed, you forget everything, that I was Mr. Such*-and-such, I was African, I was American, I was this or that, black or white—everything forgotten, finished. So this is also dreaming. And as in dreaming sometimes we see the tiger has attacked me at night, or a goat has come and is crashing me, and so many things, and crying—sometimes it happens. But as there is no goats, no tiger, still you dreaming that there is goat, there is tiger, similarly in this way, in this life also, we are thinking, "He is my enemy; he is my friend," this is also dreaming. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nobody is your enemy; nobody is your friend. We have created by dreaming. So we have to get out of this dreaming at night and day and come to the Kṛṣṇa platform. Then our life is successful. Guest: I have got another question. You said that man has got a mind that is higher than animals; that is why a man tries to think more about God. Then why is it possible that man should be born, say, as a dog in the next life or something of the sort? Okay, so he has passed to this level of animal and has come to, I mean, the soul has come to the human society . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . what is the purpose of him going back to the animal kingdom? Prabhupāda: Because if you . . . if you live like animals, then you go to animals again. If you live like man, then you keep yourself man. And if you think like God, then you go to God. That is your business. (aside) Read the verse of this. So if you simply live a life like animal, then you go to the animal kingdom. If you prepare your life like human being, you remain here in a human society. If you prepare your life godly, you go to God. What is the difficulty? So that is the best benefit, you can prepare your life godly and go back to Godhead. This is a chance only. Just like you were in school: if you educate yourself nicely, in future you become very happy; and if you spoil your time, don't take education, then you are a loafer. *So this human form of life is a chance—either you remain as human society or you go back to Godhead or you go back to animals. That is your business. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthā (BG 14.18): they are elevated who are in the modes of goodness. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ : those who are in the modes of passion, they remain here. Jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā , adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ : and those who make their character jaghanya , most abominable, they go to the animals. What is the difficulty to understand? *It is not stereotype. The soul is described in the Vedic literature as sarva*-gā : he can go anywhere. He can go anywhere. Anywhere means he can go up, he can go down, or he can remain as he is, according to his work. Just like even in this life I can become illiterate, I can educate . . . I can become educated, if I try for that. The chance is there. The government is giving you a chance to everyone, but according to his own desires one is going to the prison house, one is becoming the high court judge. As it is possible in this life, similarly next life also, the same thing. You can elevate yourself to godly position, and you can stay in position what you are, and you can degrade yourself. Guest: I have got another question. If it is possible for the human soul to remain in the body of an animal, does that mean that the souls are all the same, whether it is created as life in an animal body or in a human being body? Does it mean the souls are the same? Śyāmasundara: All souls are the same? Prabhupāda: Yes. All souls are the same. Just like you are soul—you are in a black body; he is a soul, he is in a white body; I am Indian, I am in a different body; but the soul is the same. It is called dress, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). The body is dress. Because you are in white shirt and because he is in blue jersey, it does not mean you are different. You are the same. Similarly, we may have different bodies—a tiger may have different body and the godly man, the saintly man, may have different body—but the soul is the same. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *Vidyā*-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇa . According to Vedic civilization the brahmin is highly learned, vidyā-vinaya , and very gentle. He is considered to be the highest in the human society, the brahmin , vidyā-vinaya-sampanne . If we fall, he does not make any distinction. That is paṇḍita . That is real learned man. Guest: I have got another question. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: In the material form we have got a big man, small man, big animals and small animals . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, the spiritual form, there is no such thing. Guest: There's no big soul and small souls? Śyāmasundara: No big soul, no small soul—all the same size? Prabhupāda: Yes, the big soul there is: big soul is God. Guest: And apart from God? *Prabhupāda: And small soul we are. Both of them, we are souls. The big soul is God. Just like you and me, we are small souls, so we are dominating over this small body, but God, being big soul, He is dominating over everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi , sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). *Kṣetra*-jña. Kṣetra-jña means the body, one who knows the body. Just like I, I am soul—I know that this is my hand, this is my leg. This is called kṣetra-jña. Kṣetra means this body, and jña means one who knows. So I know everything of my body—not everything practically, but I know when I feel pain or pleasure I can know. But I cannot know what is your pain and pleasure. Therefore you are the master of your body, I am the master of my body. But Kṛṣṇa says: *"But I am also kṣetra*-jñaṁ . I am also present in every body." That is Supersoul, or big soul. *So just like there are two souls: big soul and a small soul. The small souls we are, and big soul is God. Big means all*-pervading. God knows what you are thinking, what you are feeling; but I cannot know what you're thinking, what you are feeling. Therefore I am small soul and God is the big soul. Just like I may be proprietor of this house, and you may be proprietor of that house, but the state is proprietor of everything—so there is big proprietor, the king. Similarly we are soul, God is soul, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Cetanā means living; nitya means eternal. We are all living and eternal. God is also living and eternal, but eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān , but that one maintains all the small. So God has provided food for everyone, all living entities. There are hundreds and thousands of living entities other than human beings. They have no business, they have no profession, but they have no economic problem. You may have never seen that a bird has died fasting or without food, or elephant has died without food. The elephant eats at a time hundred pounds, but he has got eating arrangement by God. The ant is eating only one grain, and it has got also arrangement. So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān : that one God, big soul, He is maintaining all living entities. These are the Vedic injunction. And actually we are being maintained by God. He is supplying rain. From rain there is grain, and you are eating grain—therefore you are living. Guest: I have got another question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: If I am not wrong, I think I am most like a chimpanzee and gorillas. They are considered as the . . . Prabhupāda: They are also supplied food by God. Because I have heard that here in Africa there are gorillas, and where they live there is a kind of tree, and the fruits of that tree is harder than the, I mean to say, iron bullet. (laughter) Yes. The fruits of that tree, the nut, so hard that you cannot break it by hammering. And the gorillas take it, and they chew it, "Very nice!" (laughter) So who has supplied these nuts there where gorillas live? Perhaps you know it, the gorillas in your country, and how in the book that they are supplied with these fruits. Who is supplying the fruits? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: That is God. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kāmān means all things I want. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying, God is supplying. We require sufficient water, so there are oceans, there are seas, stocked, and the water is salty so that it may not decompose. And the sun is engaged to evaporate the water and make it cloud and distribute all over the globe. And it is stored on the mountain, just like tank, and it is coming down like pipe, rivers. Every element is there. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ (ISO 1): everything is being controlled by God. Because the arrangement is complete, you see. It requires excessive amount of water. So just see: therefore the water portion is three fourths. Immense water supply, immense air supply, immense light supply, immense food supply—simply you are mismanaging. The birds, bees, animals, they never feel any scarcity of food. That day I was showing the bird was dancing, the monkey—they are jumping from one tree to another, enough food. They have no problems. *Brahmānanda: Except for the monkey*-eating birds. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Therefore that problem must be there; *otherwise how you will understand that this is a miserable place? However you may be very expert in making adjustments to your food supply and everything is there, still there will be trouble. That is called saṁsāra*-dāvāna . You cannot be happy here. Whatever you make arrangements you will feel unhappy, unless you come to your senses. This is God. Guest: I have got another question. What is the difference between a wisdom and knowledge, say as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: What is the difference between what? Guest: Difference between wisdom . . . Guest (3): Wisdom and . . . Guest: . . . knowledge, as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned? Śyāmasundara: What is the difference between wisdom and knowledge? Prabhupāda: Wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference. Guest: And which . . . Prabhupāda: Knowledge is wisdom; wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference. Guest: Which comes first? Prabhupāda: Which comes first? It is already existing. Because you are living, there is knowledge. Wisdom you can say is material knowledge, that's all. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But wisdom is also knowledge. Just like after experiencing much experience you become very wise. So wisdom you can say is material knowledge. So this is wisdom: to understand that "I am spirit soul. I am part and parcel of God; therefore my duty is to surrender unto God. He is big soul, I am small soul—He is providing me; therefore it is my duty to take shelter of Him." This is wisdom. "After many, many births of cultivating knowledge, when one actually becomes wise, He surrenders unto Me." To understand God is everything—that kind of great soul is very rare. So? Brahmānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: This will be a little bit outside our discussion. I understand that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains in India, there is a valley where the souls of the saints normally meet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Brahmānanda: He says that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains there is a valley where the saints meet. Guest: The souls of the . . . Devotee (2): The souls . . . Guest: . . . the martyrs and the saints . . . Prabhupāda: No saintly person will eat meat. Devotee (2): No, no. Where they will meet, they will congregate together. The souls of the saintly persons will congregate. You understand—it is a place in the Himalayas where the souls of the saintly persons congregate. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That can be possible by the Himalayas. Here it can be possible if you mix together in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are all good souls—then it would be possible. A saintly person does not mean that he has got something extraordinary. That extraordinary is this wisdom to understand God. That is saintly person. Sa mahātmā , vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti : one who knows that God is everything, God is the original cause of everything, he is saintly person. Śyāmasundara: This way. *Prabhupāda: He is sa*-mahātmā . Everything. And what is the business of mahātmā ? Mahātmā means he is under the spiritual nature, daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ . And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya : he has no more business except serving Kṛṣṇa. He does not want anything more. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha , daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty . To keep oneself under the protection of spiritual nature means he becomes liberated; he has no other aim. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha , daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ . Guest: I have got another question. This is, or is not so . . . I read in a certain book that a . . . say first of all taking into consideration that life . . . (indistinct) . . . in other planets apart from theirs . . . (indistinct) . . . I read in a certain book that these people, they normally visit earth . . . (indistinct) . . . whether it is true or not I don't know, but I have heard it . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . residents of those, that planet, they can fly, and they can go from one planet to another. Just like siddha*-loka . By mystic perfection in yoga you can do that also. Aṇimā , laghimā siddhi —you become light. Guest: Now if this, erm, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is He above, you know, the other idols, you worship them, the cows? Is He above them? Śyāmasundara: Is Lord Kṛṣṇa above all other forms of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the Supreme God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . there is, erm, it would appear that there is another God above Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then He's not supreme. If He is supreme, there cannot be any other God superior to Him. Guest: In India there are so many gods worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: Not many. God is one. Guest: Some people worship them. Prabhupāda: God means . . . of course, God, God means controller. The controller, everyone offers to the controller, some sort of controller. Just like Mr. Patel, he is controlling his business; he has got many men working under him. You may be an official; so many men may be working under you. I am also a human being, so many of my disciples they are working under me. So if God means controller, then everyone is controller, then everyone is God. But the thing is that we are not supreme controller. I am controlling my disciples, but if your government says that, "You can't preach here. You go away," I will go. I cannot deny it. Therefore although I am controller, I am not supreme controller. Similarly, Mr. Patel may be controller in his business—hundreds of men working under him—but he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who finds that he is controller, but he is controlled by somebody else. You take anyone—even your president—he is also controlled by somebody. So nobody is supreme controller. When it comes to a point who is not controlled by anyone, that is God. That is called supreme controller. He is controlling everybody, but He is not controlled by anyone. There's a test. If somebody comes before you and he says that, "I am God," you test him, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone. If you are controlled by somebody else, then you are not God." But people do not know what is the nature of God. This is the simple nature. If some rascal comes that, "I am God," so test him that, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone, then you are God; otherwise rascal." That is going on. Every day there is coming out a God. What kind of God he is? We don't accept such rascal as God. God is Kṛṣṇa, because He is not controlled by anybody. That is God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, He was never controlled by anyone, but He controlled everyone. That is God. Guest: So, erm, this word . . . Prabhupāda: God is the supreme controller. That is the small definition. Guest: So Kṛṣṇa means God. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. He is supreme controller. *Guest: All*-attractive . . . (indistinct) . . . coming from God . . . Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa is God. Guest: God. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is another name of God. Prabhupāda: You try to . . . (indistinct) . . . another name of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means black. Guest: Black? Prabhupāda: Black, yes. As you are black, similarly Kṛṣṇa is also black, but that does not mean any black man is God. Guest (2): Swāmījī, can some light be thrown on this thinking? Most of the people over here, they think that when Indians are showing their respect to the cows, some think that they, when they go to the temple, the cows idols are there, they throw milk and all this so many things on there, people think that we are really worshiping them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): So how far the ISKCON thinking is that when we pray to the gorakpur idols, some . . . (indistinct) . . . cow worship . . . *Prabhupāda: Because therefore you have to learn from your spiritual master. You cannot speculate. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you are asking me, you maybe have to learn all these things from your spiritual master. Vedic civilization, those who are following Vedic civilization, they worship cows. That is necessary. The cow produces miracle food, milk. So if you want to have good brain, then you have to take milk. Guest (2): Good brain? Prabhupāda: If you don't want to remain dull, then you have to take milk. Guest (2): Milk. *Prabhupāda: Therefore cow protection is necessary. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ , brāhmaṇa-karma svabhāva-jam . . . er, vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Those who are mercantile people, their business, according to Vedic . . . kṛṣi-go , agriculture. They should be engaged in agriculture and go-rakṣya , and protection of the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya and vāṇijyaṁ , and trade. That is three kinds of occupation. *So go*-rakṣya is the duty of the mercantile people, because without milk and grains, how you can live very decently? Therefore cows' . . . cow protection, go-rakṣya , not tiger- rakṣya . That is not mentioned. Go-rakṣya . There are many other animals—why they are particular about go, cows? That is significant. Because unless we have got sufficient milk supply, you cannot have nourishing food and you cannot develop good brain. Therefore it is necessary. Guest (2): Most essential; an essential animal. Therefore I . . . more respect with me. *Prabhupāda: In the prayers of Kṛṣṇa it is said, namo brahmaṇya*-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 1.19.65). Why especially the cow's name is there? When Kṛṣṇa, when He was present on this planet, He remained as a cowherds boy in His childhood. He gave protection to the cows. So it is the essential part of civilization. Guest: He protect the . . . all animals? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: He protected all animals. Brahmānanda: Are you asking did He protect all animals? The question is did He protect all animals, or just cows? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Jagaddhitāya . Guest: All the . . . Prabhupāda: All the animals, the whole world. But first preferences is to the cows and the brāhmins . Because without brahminical culture and sufficient supply of milk, that is not human civilization. Guest: In worshiping cows, do you think that there is nothing wrong about it, because Lord Kṛṣṇa does not consider it wrong to worship the cow? Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa does not consider it wrong to worship the cow? Prabhupāda: No, He personally worshiped cow. He showed the example. Guest (2): He used to take them for grazing, even. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So the actual, the actual doctrine is that you will not kill a cow? Devotee (2): The question was would we kill a cow? Guest: Yes. Devotee (2): Would we kill a cow? Prabhupāda: Who? Devotee (2): Would we? Prabhupāda: "We" means? Guest: Kṛṣṇa followers. Devotee (2): Would the devotees of Kṛṣṇa kill a cow? Prabhupāda: Who? No devotees of Kṛṣṇa would kill cow. Devotee (2): A devotee of Kṛṣṇa would not kill a cow. Prabhupāda: No, they would kill nobody. Kṛṣṇa's devotee would not kill even an ant, what to speak of cow. Cow is most important. Guest: Then would it be possible for . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa doctrine . . . (indistinct) . . . influence the government not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave them to God, or leave them to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What was that? Guest: Could you . . . Devotee (2): Would it be possible to influence the government . . . Guest: Yeah. Devotee (2): . . . not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave it to Kṛṣṇa, to leave it to God, to punish those? Prabhupāda: Well, at the present moment, no government is perfect. But no government is allowed to kill a cow. That's a fact. Why the government kills cows? Guest (2): If the people accept the proposal . . . (indistinct) . . . and if they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if . . . Prabhupāda: They won't kill a cow. Guest: They won't kill. Guest (2): There is no automatically . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We want that you become all Kṛṣṇa conscious and stop this slaughterhouse. Guest: You think that, he asked, not to kill a cow, is it accepted everywhere in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (2): Is it accepted everywhere in India? Prabhupāda: India is also killing cow, because they have degraded. Brahmānanda: Cow killing is going on also in India. Guest (2): No, it is not so much . . . Prabhupāda: No, they're making business, government. Guest: Hmm, by killing cows? Please tell me . . . (indistinct) Devotee (3): (whispers) Take prasādam . Guest: For their milk, yeah? Prabhupāda: In India there was government, when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was going on his tour, he saw that one man was attempting to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are trying, attempting to kill a cow in my kingdom." That was by cow protection. (aside) I am not going to. Keep it there and if I want, I require . . . Devotee (2): Keep it in the room. Woman devotee: Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: Even we get history during Muhammadan rule there was no slaughterhouse. There was no slaughterhouse. The Muhammadans ruled over India for eight hundred years, but there was not a single slaughterhouse. The slaughterhouse was introduced by the British government. Guest: In India? Prabhupāda: In India. The Muhammadans sometimes used to kill cow, but that was in the masjid during their Bakrid ceremony. Not daily. That also very secretly. The Muhammadans king, er, emperor, he knew that it would hurt the Hindu sentiment. He did not allow publicly. It was the creation of the British government to encourage, and our leaders, they were made in London, and they advocated, "Yes. Whatever is introduced by Britishers is all right." (laughter) Guest: I would like to ask another question. The Muhammadans . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): He says that other religions have their books. Which book does Kṛṣṇa have? Śyāmasundara: Ah, he thinks that Kṛṣṇa dreamed of this religion, or it came to Him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): He says that the Muhammadans are having a book like . . . Guest (4): The Koran was founded by the Bible. Prabhupāda: Oh! Guest: It was written from the Bible. What book . . . what is the foundation of Kṛṣṇa religion . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): He says that Muhammadans, they translated the Bible and then they made the Koran as their holy book, from where they take their all the source of their knowledge and all these things, inspiration. Now the people, the Kṛṣṇa conscious people, from what book do they get their source of inspiration from, which book or . . . Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the Bible got their inspiration? First of all let me know. As you say that the Muhammadan Koran was taken from Bible. Is it not? Anyway, you say. So wherefrom the Bible was taken? Guest (2): From where is the Bible? Guest: The Bible as we read was founded by prophets. Prabhupāda: Huh? As the Koran has a history, the Bible has a history also. Guest: So in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that history? What is that history? Wherefrom the Bible was inspired? Guest: (indistinct) . . . the disciples, the disciples . . . (indistinct) . . . performance of God . . . (indistinct) . . . different times . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So similarly, the Koran has been taken from Bible, and the Bible is from the disciples of God . . . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . then what is the wrong in the Koran? Guest: No, we wanted to know whether there was . . . (indistinct) . . . how was this thing founded? Where did He get His things from? Prabhupāda: Religion . . . the original religion is founded by God. Guest: But what is the root of it? Prabhupāda: God is the root of it, because God's parts and parcels have come to the material world to enjoy. So God has given that, "All right, you have come here to enjoy. You enjoy in this way, then you will in due course of time, you will again come back to Me." Guest: So God spoke to what religion? Prabhupāda: Eh? What? Whom He spoke, that is different thing. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is the principle. Śyāmasundara: He says, did God speak through Lord Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: No, no. Speak through Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is God himself. Not through, but He is God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . God. Devotee (2): No, He is God. Guest: Oh, He's God, God Himself. Prabhupāda: That's it. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God. Guest: It means that anything that is blessed, anything that is attractive, that is our own God . . . (indistinct) . . . then Kṛṣṇa has got thousands of ladies . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): Something good or something nice. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda has not said that. Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: The question was that it was said that God has many names; He is unlimited. So the question was, well, does it mean that one can just have any name, and that becomes a name of God? One can make up any name? Prabhupāda: "Any name" means must have some meaning. Guest: (indistinct) . . . say if there's something very good. Say you make a watch, which is . . . Prabhupāda: Not any name is God, but God has many names. Try to understand this. Guest: Because according to . . . Prabhupāda: God is unlimited, so He has got unlimited names. But not that any name is God. Guest (4): That is true. Prabhupāda: Try to understand this. Guest (2): Just like sun . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Say sun, sun, it was in our language we call it sūrya . Somebody might be calling it something else, but it is the same thing, how one calls. Prabhupāda: Either you call sun, or sūrya , the object is the same. Guest (2): The object is the same. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, any name which clarifies God, that is God's name. There is Kṛṣṇa, "all*-attractive." If this "all-attractive" name is applicable to God, then it is God's name. Also, kṛṣṇa means "black"; *that is another meaning. But if God is not all*-attractive, then how He can be God? Guest: (indistinct) . . . which is attractive, to meet God, love God . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . if you give Him a name which is attractive? Prabhupāda: It is not attractive, but any . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . the sunshine is not enough. Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness? Brahmānanda: Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness? *Prabhupāda: Well, unless one is holy, how he can be all*-attractive? Unholy, how he can be attractive? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Is a rogue attractive? Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Is a thief attractive? Guest: Something is there, but it won't last. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . a thief is attractive by his personality, but not by his heart. Guest (2): So he is not fully attractive. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But still, you cannot worship a thief. Guest: No, I don't think I can do it. *Prabhupāda: A thief may be attractive to a certain person, but he is not all*-attractive. One who is thief, he can appreciate a big thief. (laughter) That is another thief. But a thief is not all-attractive. Then if a thief . . . if somebody says: "One thief is coming to your home at night," oh, he becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . to your house. Devotee (3): But Kṛṣṇa can become a thief and be attractive. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa is so qualified. Just like the moon. There are spots in the moon—nobody considers about the spots. Everyone takes moon, "Oh, here is moon." Nobody considers. Eko 'si doṣāya, guni sanga parte nirvadyati . Kṛṣṇa has no fault. Even we take it as fault, one who has got many qualities, a little fault even there is, it is not taken account of. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). *Just like the sun: the sun is absorbing water from seas and oceans, and he is also absorbing water from your urine. So nobody is taking account, "Oh, sun is taking water from the urinal." (laughter) Immediately it can purify. By sun's touch the urine becomes pure. Even there is something faulty, by Kṛṣṇa's touch it becomes purified. That is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is all*-attractive. The same example: the sun is absorbing water from the urinal. Is sun polluted? Can you say: "Oh, the sun has taken water from urine, so it has become polluted"? Can you say that? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya . Therefore anyone who is very powerful, he has no fault. Even if you find some fault in him, there is no fault actually. But even if you think that it is fault, it is not taken. Sūrya , by absorbing urine, it is making purified that place. But if you say: "Oh, the sun is evaporating urine—it has become polluted," that is your shortness of understanding. That sūrya is purifying that place, very, very . . . (indistinct) Guest: How do they appear? . . . (indistinct) . . . came into this world? Brahmānanda: How long ago did Kṛṣṇa come into this world? Prabhupāda: Five thousand years. Guest: Five hundred years. Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Guest: Five thousand years. Prabhupāda: Five thousands of years. Guest: So two thousand years . . . Prabhupāda: Three thousand B.C. Guest: Three thousand B.C. Now if . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa attending the school or any society before He became a God? Brahmānanda: Did Kṛṣṇa attend any school or any society before He became a God? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: He was born. Prabhupāda: He was God from His childhood, from His babyhood. Guest: He was born. Prabhupāda: Since He was born. Guest: Like Jesus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: He is like Jesus? Prabhupāda: But I don't think Jesus was Christ from the very beginning. He was given the title when he was perfect. Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: He was given the title of Christ when he was perfect. Guest: When he was baptized. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: When he was baptized? Prabhupāda: Well, I don't know much about Jesus Christ. Guest: But how it is that Lord Kṛṣṇa exists now? Prabhupāda: Now first of all we are speaking of the philosophy of God. When you understand the philosophy of God, then you can question. Guest: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 23, 1971, Nairobi (Introduction) Evening. September 23rd. Continuation of questions by African intelligence) Prabhupāda: . . . yesterday? Hmm? Śyāmasundara: (to guest) . . . yesterday you asked a question. Do you remember? "What is our beginning?" Is that it? "Why are we existing?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that question? Śyāmasundara: (to guest) You ask. *Prabhupāda: That I have already answered, that there is no beginning, because we are part and parcel of God. God is ever*-existing; *therefore His parts and parcels are also ever*-existing. There is no beginning. The . . . we are taking into account of beginning because we have got this material body. The material body has beginning, just like this material body is taken into account when it is born. But the spirit soul is ever-existing. The beginning is, means, the beginning of this material body. The spirit soul has no beginning, no end. Just like in this present life you can realize that, as I explained yesterday, that you had a body of babyhood, then you had a body of boyhood, now you have got a body of youthhood. The body is changing, but you are the same. You can remember when you were playing with other children in your childish body. The same you, who is still existing in this body, he was in that childhood body. Similarly, when you get old, old means your body gets old. Just like I have got. I am old man; I can remember my childhood, I can remember my youthhood. *So this soul is existing, but the body is changing. Therefore this soul existed before getting this body, and soul continue to exist after annihilation of this body. Is it clear? Therefore the soul is ever*-existing—there is no beginning, no end. The end and beginning is calculated in terms of this body, material body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated there that this change of body is going on, so when this body will be changed, tathā dehāntara-prāptir ( BG 2.13): āntaram , another. After giving up this body, the soul gets another body, dehāntaram . Dhīras tatra na muhyati : those who are sober, those who are educated, intelligent, they do not bewilder. They know that this soul has now left this body and it has gone to another body. Just like if I leave this apartment, any one of you will understand that I have gone to another apartment. Does not . . . because I have left this apartment, it does not mean that I am no longer existing. This is the position of the soul. We can experiment, or verify, this knowledge even in this life. The same example: I was existing in my childhood body, I was existing in my boyhood body, I was existing in my youthhood body. The body is changing, but I am there. So I will exist when this body is changing. Is there any difficulty to understand? Guest: (indistinct) . . . so one who then exists when the body is dead . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: He is asking if God still exists. Prabhupāda: Exists in exactly the same way. When your childhood body is no longer, how you are existing? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Well, after all, at the present moment you haven't got your childhood body. Similarly, when you will not have this body, why not another body? What is the difficulty? You have got experience in this life that you were existing in your body when it was baby. Just like this child: when he will grow up, the father, mother will not cry or lament, "Oh, where is my son? Where is my son?" He knows that "My son has got another body, but he is existing." Therefore the very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra. Dhīra means those who are sober, cool*-headed. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . *Exactly the same example, that this so many children there are, so when they will grow up the mother will not lament. The mother knows that, "My child is there—the body has changed." Another example can be given that if somebody has seen a child, say a one*-year-old child, and he is absent . . . it is my practical experience—one of my Godbrother, he left home when his child was one year old, and then after twenty-five or thirty years, his boy came to see him—he could not recognize him. Why? There is change of body. One had to introduce his son, "This is your son." "Oh!" (laughter) (laughs) Similarly, we are changing bodies, but the same son he could not recognize. There were many instances. Just like there is a story of Sohrab Rostam. You know? The father killed his boy. They did not know they are father and son, and they fought, and when the boy was killed, then his father knew, "Oh, he is my son!" (aside) Aiye , aiye , bhaite (Come in, have a seat) The body is changing, but the soul is there. Why Rostam lamented for killing his child? Because he could not recognize that "He was my child. I could not . . ." because he was long, long away from home. So he killed his child. This is very simple fact; *try to understand. This is the first beginning of spiritual education. Unless one understands that spirit soul is everlasting, nityaḥśāśvato 'yaṁ , na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre . . . (BG 2.20) That is the description in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that the spirit soul is eternal; *it does not annihilate after the annihilation of this body. And this spirit soul has no beginning. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. As God is ever*-existing, similarly, the spirit soul is ever-existing. Just like as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. *The example of the spirit soul is like the molecular parts in the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of so many atomic shining particles. This is natural. They are different. The sun*-shining particles, they are different. But because they are combined together . . . everything is atomic combination—in water also; in land also—similarly, the sunshine is combination of molecules, shining molecular parts. So as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. Similarly, as God is existing, the part and parcel of God, shining particles, spirit souls, they are also existing. They are also existing. So clear this part. Any one of you, first of all clear this part. That is the first stage for advancing in spiritual education. What is the difficulty in understanding? Guest: The only difficulty . . . I, when I die, when I die and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You don't die. That is my proposition. Guest: My form dies. Prabhupāda: Form, yes! Guest: Eh . . . Prabhupāda: Just like if you change this dress. Guest: Now the soul will be given to somebody else, probably. Is that what you say? Śyāmasundara: The soul will be given to somebody else? After using this body, the soul is given to somebody else? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody else . . . that I have already explained: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa, jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). According to your karma , according to your pure desire— karma means desire—at the time of your death, if your desire will create a situation, mental situation. Just like a businessman, always thinking of his business, a thief is always planning how to steal; a professor is always thinking how to make a solution of the mathematic problem. Everyone has got different consciousness. So at the time of death, the consciousness created by you by your present activities will carry you to similar bodies. The example is given, just like air flowing through a rose garden, it carries very nice flavor. Similarly, the air passing through filthy place, it carries very bad smell. Is it not? Eh? Similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego is very subtle, subtler than the air. It carries a certain consciousness, and that creates another body. The soul is carried by that consciousness and put into the womb of a particular type of mother through the semina of the father, and the soul grows body in the womb of the mother. Just like a tiger grows the tiger body, a man grows a man's body, the hog grows the hog's body. The body is grown in the mother's body, and when it is complete it comes out and becomes this body. Therefore this human form of life is a chance to understand his real position. In other lives other than human form of life, they are coming by nature's law, by evolution, transmigration—evolution, Darwin's theory of evolution. But the process of evolution are just like there is evolution in human life. There are 4,000 species of human life. They are 8,400,000 species of different forms of life, so other than human beings, there are 8,000,000 forms, and in the human form of life there are 4,000 human species of life. Therefore we find so many varieties; the two bodies will never coincide exactly, the different forms of life. So when one comes to the human form of life, never mind whether he is highly advanced civilized life or uncivilized life, the human form life has got a special privilege to understand his position. It doesn't matter whether he is European or American or Indian or brahmin or śūdra —these are of course bodily differentiation—but the human consciousness is there. Therefore if we utilize this human consciousness and try to understand our constitutional position, "What I am?" and if I can understand that I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God, then my life is perfect. So this understanding, this education, is not hampered. It is not that only the Indian brahmins will be able to understand and not the Africans will be able to . . . able to understand. No. Everyone will be able to, because that human consciousness is there. So my request to you African people is that you are now a growing nation; you try to grow from the solid basic principles of life, understanding, that spiritual understanding. Then your life will be very much successful; you will be an example in the world. At the present moment people are degrading, degrading in this sense: that instead of understanding his spiritual basis of life, they are understanding on the material . . . (indistinct) . . . which is known. He is not this body, but we are trying to adjust things on this bodily concept of life. The United Nations, they are trying to adjust things, but the basic mistake is there, that all the people are simply assembled there, they are in bodily concept of life, therefore they cannot make any solution. And actually that has happened. They are trying for so many years, but because they are in bodily concept of life, according to Bhāgavat they are all asses: *Persons, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . . . kuṇape : this is a bag of three elements, kapha , pitta , vāyu . According to Āyurveda , this body is developed on three material principles: kapha , pitta . . . pitta , vāyu , air. Kapha , pitta , vāyu . The Āyurvedic treatment is on these three principles. Their method of treatment is they can feel the pulse, and by the beating of the pulse they can understand how these three elements are working. And on that principle immediately there are formulas in the Āyurveda that if the pulse is beating like this, then the position of the body is like this. So they will enquire from you the symptoms, and if you say "Yes," immediately they will prescribe medicine. That is Āyurvedic medicine. So this body, you may not understand what is kapha , pitta , vāyu , but we can understand it very easily that if you dissect this body you will find some mucus, some blood, some muscles, some bones and so on. Does it mean that I am a combination of bones, muscles, blood, urine and stool? As such intelligence is coming from bones and biles and urine and stool? No. Therefore anyone who is accepting this body as the self is an ass. Can you combine intelligence by combining the stool, urine and blood and bones and biles and mucus? Can you make a human intelligence? Is it possible? Guest: No, I don't think. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. They are scientists, but if you analyze this body you will find all these things. So if these biles and the bones and the stool and the urine and blood can be found outside also, so if you combine them and produce an intelligence like a great scientist or great . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not possible. Therefore Bhāgavat says, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13): if we accept this combination of these three dhātus as self, then we are nothing but ass. *Therefore the first spiritual understanding is that we should try to understand that, "I am not this body." That is Vedic education: ahaṁ brahmāsmi , just to understand that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I am Brahma." And when you come to that understanding, then you actually become happy: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati, brahma*-bhūtaḥ (BG 18.54). When you come to that understanding of spirit soul, then there is no more lamenting and no more hankering. We are embarrassed by two things—what we haven't got we are simply hankering after it. Just like you African people or Indian people, they hankered after independence. They got independence—India has got independence—but where is the happiness? It is simply . . . (indistinct) . . . simply hankering. So, so long you shall be in bodily concept of life, these two things—hankering and lamenting: hankering after something which we do not possess, and lamenting after something which you have lost. *So as soon as you come to the spiritual understanding, there is no more hankering and lamenting. This is the science. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : at that time one can see all people, all living entities, equally—universal brotherhood. That is the real platform. So they are trying to establish the universal platform . . . brotherhood on the platform of these asses' understanding: "I am this body." But how the asses can make universal brotherhood? Is it possible? No. They cannot do. Asses are asses. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ. Kharaḥ means asses. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape . First of all, first education should be that . . . therefore our students formerly were sent to gurukula to have this spiritual understanding, brahmacārī that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." So where is the soul's activity? Perhaps throughout the whole world the activity of soul can be seen in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: no bodily activity. This boy, Brahmānanda Swami, his father has got very lucrative manufacturing concern. He is manufacturing the plastic boxes, very profitable business. But he has left . . . his eldest son, very beloved son, pet son, but he has left. Why? Because he has come to the spiritual understanding. He has understood that, "I have nothing to do with this material engagement." So unless people come to the spiritual understanding, there is no question of United Nation. It is simply bluff, or impossible. It is not possible. The first education is to know yourself, what you are: ahaṁ brahmāsmi , "I am the spirit soul. I am not this body." So it is clear that you are existing, your body is changing. Similarly, when this body will be changed, you will exist. What is the difficulty in understanding this simple fact? I am existing after changing so many bodies in this life—I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man, so I am now an old man—so when I give up this body, why shall I not exist? What is the difficulty to understand? This is first understanding. Śyāmasundara: If my real identity is spirit soul, what do I look like? What do I really look like? Prabhupāda: That you can understand by an analogy. You look like with two hands and two heads, er, two legs and one head. Unless you have got a head, you have got two hands, you have got two legs, how this body has developed with hands and legs? This body is called dress. Just like if you go to a tailor, he immediately measures your hands and legs and makes your coat and shirt. Similarly, unless you have got hands and legs and head, how this head and legs and hands have come out? Is it very difficult to understand what is your form? You can understand your form by the form of your dress. If this body is dress, then from the form of the dress you can understand your whole form. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. But very small? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. That is also described, that is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Ānantyāya : many, innumerable, unlimited number. Sa ānantyāya kalpate . These are Vedic injunctions. As you have got a spiritual body, very small, similarly the Personality of Godhead, He has got a spiritual body. (aside) You are going? Brahmānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All right. So there's no difficulty . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . to understand your form. You are not formless. That cannot be. Śyāmasundara: So this spirit spark, this very small spark, has form? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Hah. Prabhupāda: That spirit spark is in the microbic germ and in the elephant also. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: They have got different bodies, but the same spirit soul is there. Guest: Now which one of these two, body and spirit, makes probably good or bad activities? Is it the bodies or souls? Prabhupāda: Good or bad activities, there you have to follow. Just like in your state there is law book, and the law book it is said: "You do not do this. You do this." If you're doing . . . just like you are marking in your railway department, so there are . . . what do you call? Regulative books? Guest: Regulations. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Regulations. Prabhupāda: Regulation books. So if you follow the regulation, that is good. If you don't follow the regulation, that is bad. That is the standard of good and bad. So as you have got in the railway department some regulative principles, so why not in the big, gigantic universal state some principles which is given by God? *Therefore in the Bhāgavat it is stated, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītaṁ (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the regulative principles given by God. You cannot manufacture religion. Religion means regulative principles given by God—that is religion. Mr. Patel, is that all right? "The regulative principles given by God is religion." Is there any defect in the definition? Guest: I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Just like you have got regulative principles given by your railway authorities, is it not? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the regulative principles which are given by God, that is called religion. Guest: Which are these? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Which are these? Prabhupāda: That you find from the religious book. Just like the Christian religion books, the regulative principles is given, Ten Commandments: "Thou shall not kill." But if you are killing, then you are not Christian. You are violent, you're becoming sinful. Guest: Is this also, I mean, a material given in Kṛṣṇa's book or philosophy? Prabhupāda: In any book or philosophy. We are not bringing . . . religion means the regulative principles given by God. That is religion. Any religion you take—Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion—there are regulative principles. So if you follow the regulative principles, then you are following the, I mean to say, orders of God, then you are religious. So religious . . . different types of religions are created according to time, circumstances and people. Just like in Christian religion the first commandment is "Thou shall not killing." "Thou shall not kill," that means it was preached among certain classes of men who were engaged in matters of killing. Is it not? Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why it is commanded, "Thou shall not kill"? So there are different classes of men; therefore we find different types of religion. Where there are men very highly advanced, who have nothing to do with killing, their instruction is different. Their instruction is: "Just try to understand that you are spirit soul, you're not this matter." And one who cannot understand this principle, the primary moral principles are taught, "Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not . . . (indistinct) . . ." "Thou shall not . . ." So this is also religious principle; *that is also religious principle. Just like in pocket dictionary, this is called also dictionary, and the Webster's International Dictionary is a very big volume—that is also dictionary. But that dictionary is meant for a class of men and this dictionary is meant for another class of men. But both of them are dictionaries. Similarly, the different types of religious system is due to different types of men. But when you actually come to spiritual understanding, then you have to understand yourself, self*-realization: that you are not body, you are not matter—you are spirit soul. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all just try to put some question. Let us try to understand this. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) Weren't you asking also that which of these two creates good and bad activities—the body or the soul? Guest: What I don't understand, actually, is that whether it is the body which makes bad activities or good activities, or is it the soul itself which decides to make these good activities or bad activities? Prabhupāda: The body is the instrument. Just like if I want to drink this water, so this tongue is the instrument to taste it. And when I taste this water, my thirst is immediately gone. So tongue is the instrument for tasting this water. Similarly, if I want . . . if I desire some particular type of enjoyment, Kṛṣṇa, or God, gives me a type of instrumental body, and I shall enjoy. The body is the instrument. The Sanskrit word is called karam . Karam . Karam means doing. Karaṇeṇa. Karaṇeṇa means by the instrument, by the bodily instrument. So you are given. God is so kind that if I want, if I desire to enjoy something . . . I shall give you another example. You find that the hog, it eats, it eats stool. But it has got a different type of mouth. A tiger has got different type of mouth; *a human being has got a different type of mouth—so different instrumental body. That body is offered by superior management, daiva*-netreṇa. Daiva means superior, or godly; netreṇa , "by supervision." You are not the maker of your body. Is that right? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Your body is made different, my body is made different, his body is different. Therefore I am not the maker of the body. I can desire that I want to enjoy this type of facility, and God gives you a type of body to enjoy that facility. Guest: So should one believe then that one is born a thief, is born a murderer, is born good? The soul, is he so envious, born all these way? Prabhupāda: The soul is always good, but, just like the example is, just like fire and the sparks of the fire: fire is also fire, and the small sparks of the fire, they are also fire. Is it not? Fire . . . you have seen sparks of fire? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Are they not fire? Guest: No, not. Prabhupāda: But sometimes they fall out of the fire, and when it is out of the fire, it is no longer fire; it is extinguished. Is it not? You have seen in so many fireplace a phut! phut! There are so many sparks. And as soon as the spark out of the fire it is extinguished. A minute before it was fire, but as soon as it falls down, separated from the fire, it is no longer fire. It is fire, but the potency of fire, illumination is gone. Similarly . . . (aside) Come on. Similarly, we are also fire, but as soon as we have separated from God, our that fire quality, illuminative quality, is lost, the spiritual illuminative quality. But it can be revived if that spark, that particle of coal or carbon, if it is again put into the fire it will be fire. It will become fire. So by our desire to lord it over the material nature we have come in this material world, and God has given us facilities, that "You enjoy this material world to your best capacity." And we are doing that. That is hard struggle for existence. But we are not happy. Guest: Even if as you say that you have . . . I have a soul, and after having a soul like Russian, American and Dutch, now why didn't we have, I mean, all these different, different minds, or divisions . . . varieties and divisions . . . Prabhupāda: Different minds, that the constitution of mind. Just like my . . . you are sitting here, but others, they left. The mind dictated, "Oh, what is the use of sitting?" They cannot utilize the situation. So that is the business of the mind: accepting and rejecting. We sometimes accept something which we like, and we sometimes reject if we do not like. That is the way of mind. Mind's constitutional position is like that: accepting and rejecting. And that we are doing. We are accepting so many things and rejecting again. This acceptance and rejection is going on perpetually, being controlled by the mind. But when you become controller of the mind, then your life is successful. That is called in Sanskrit word svāmī , gosvāmī . At the present moment we are being controlled by the senses and the mind, and when you become actually the controller of the mind and senses . . . just like a gentleman has got good business, and he has given all power to the manager. The manager has become so powerful that he is trying to control over the master. But if the master becomes strong and controls over the manager, then it is nice. And if the master becomes indolent and is controlled by the manager, then it is dangerous. So at the present moment in our material existence we are being controlled by the manager—mind. Guest: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that you can make your mind friend and enemy. If you can train your mind, it becomes your friend so that you can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become liberated. And if you train your mind in such a way that it becomes your enemy, it drags you to the hell. Therefore the yoga system is an attempt to control over the mind. Yoga indriya-saṁyama (BG 4.27). Yoga means to control over the mind and senses. That is yoga . *By bodily exercise there is process, mechanical process, to control over the body and the senses, because our this tribulation, this condition, material condition, is due to my mind. I am desiring in different way. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ (SB 7.5.30). Adānta , adānta means uncontrolled; go, go means indriya . Therefore gosvāmī . Go means senses, one who has become the master of the senses. He is called gosvāmī or svāmī . The sannyāsī is called svāmī because he is supposed to have control over his mind and senses. *Because we are being driven to the hellish condition: adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ. Tamisraṁ means in the darkness of material body; *adānta , adānta means uncontrolled. At the present moment I am so . . . I am put under the control of the mind. I cannot control it. Therefore the mind is dragging me to the darkest region of this material existence. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ , punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām . And what I am doing? Repeating the same thing—chewing the chewed, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. So if we study all these statements in the Vedic literature then we come to the light. These are the facts. So human life is meant for this purpose—understanding. It is not meant for imitating or being carried off by the propensities, like the animals. The animals have no other business than how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sense enjoyment and how to defend. That is animal life. Animals are very much busy, "Where is eating? Where I shall eat? Where I shall . . .? Where I can stay? So how can I defend? How can I mate? How can I have sex life?" These are the complete occupation of the mind and senses of the animals. But in the human form of life there must be something extra; *therefore we find in human society there is some attempt for understanding God, and that is called religion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The Vedas are giving instruction. But what is the purpose of Vedas ? The purpose of Vedas is to understand God, athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.1), the Vedānta-sūtra , first verse. The human body should be utilized properly. It is a chance, otherwise, which glides down again into the circle. If we remain in the circle . . . just like this morning I was explaining, there is a circle; it begins from here. So you are advancing, you are advancing, but if you remain in the same circle, that means advancing means again come to the same point. *So by evolutionary process, from aquatics to plant life, to plant life to insect life, from insect life to bird's life, from bird's life to animal life, from animal life to human life, from uncivilized life to civilized life—this is called progress. But if the progress is in the same line, then again you become animal, punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām , again repeating, chewing the chewed. Again you become aquatics, again you become trees, again you become insects. This is going on. *So this is a chance. Human form of life is a chance to get out of this circle of repetition of birth and death, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya (BG 7.29). This is human life: to get out of the circle. We are advancing—that's all right—advancing the same. The circle means advancing the same. Just like in the world, around the world, if you go eastward, eastward, eastward, again you come to the west. That is not advancing, that is simply taking labor. Advancing means how to get out of this repetition of birth and death. That is advancing. Guest: I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: He has a question. Guest: I have a question. It has been said by others anyway, and excuse me to mention other religions, but when one is becoming Christian, the aim, after all, you be going in heaven, or if he is bad he will be probably in hell. Now this is the aim or . . . (indistinct) . . . of getting to . . . becoming a good Christian. What is the idea of Kṛṣṇa's philosophy? Śyāmasundara: (explaining) What is the idea of Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Just as the Christians believe that you go to heaven or hell after this life, what is the idea in Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes, the same philosophy. Kṛṣṇa says: "Come to Me," we take it as heaven. But if you do not go to Kṛṣṇa, then go to hell. The same thing I was explaining, that this human form of life is the point where you can go to hell or heaven. If you actually make progress, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), Kṛṣṇa says that, "After giving up this body you don't come again to this material existence, but you come to Me." Material existence means repetition of birth and death. So that is hell. And if you go back to home, back to Godhead, just like, then you'll get free from this repetition of birth and death. Because the Christian idea—either you go to hell or to heaven—that is not bad, that is all right. It is your choice, either you remain in the cycle of birth and death or you get out of it, go back to Godhead. That we are preaching, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there is no difference. It may be in different words, but there is no difference. It is the fact that this human form of life is a chance to get out of this birth and death or going gliding down to hellish life. Now you may have a very nice body, but what is your next life? You do not know. Therefore you have to know, "Now I have got this human form of body, I have got higher consciousness to understand, so I should understand what is my heaven and what is my hell—how I go to hell and how I go to heaven." So that statement is nice, the Christian, but is it said that either you go to hell . . . Guest: Or heaven. Prabhupāda: Or heaven. That's nice. Guest (2): Swāmījī, there's another thing, according to him, or what I understand also, that they said that heaven is somewhere up and hell is somewhere down, like that. Prabhupāda: That is also . . . Guest (2): But according to what you have said just now, we can take it also this way, isn't it, that suppose we, we just become with Kṛṣṇa by our thinking our thoughts even at present, and the pleasures we get, can that be heaven? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Because . . . Prabhupāda: Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they are not in this material world. Just like we are—we are not in Kenya; we are with Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are in Vṛndāvana. Guest (2): We are in heaven, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): And those who are suffering, those who haven't got ideas of Kṛṣṇa, or say those who are having some sort of . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, or God, is all*-pervading, so as soon as you take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are in Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : *Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ ca vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena , "unadulterated bhakti-yoga ." So one who is engaged in unadulterated bhakti-yoga — avyabhicāreṇa means unadulterated, pure bhakti-yoga —such persons, māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya sevate . Sevate means offering service. So that person, guṇān samatītyaitān . . . *Samatītya means completely being liberated from these three modes of material nature—goodness, passion and ignorance. Then what is his position? Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate : he is in the transcendental platform of spiritual understanding. As soon as one becomes in the transcendental platform of brahma , then his signs are that he is no longer lamenting and no longer hankering, and he is equal to everyone: Such person is eligible to enter into devotional service, or after these stages, one is elevated to the devotional service. And what is the effect of devotional service? "He understands Me by this devotional service," bhaktyā . It doesn't say by knowledge, by speculation, by philosophical speculation, or by karma or by jñāna or by yoga , but He says particularly bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . What kind of understanding? Yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ , "as I am actually." *So if you want to understand God, what He is actually, then you have to understand Him through bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . And when he understands fully, tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā , "after understanding Me fully in full knowledge," viśate tad*-anantaram , "he enters in the spiritual world." And as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, that is your normal life. If you don't enter into the spiritual life, if you remain in the material life, then you will have to accept one body after another, go on, continuing. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate : once he appears and again he disappears. And that is called saṁsāra , or repetition of birth and death. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving persons a real light, so that he can stop this repetition of birth and death and can go back to home, back to Godhead. Śyāmasundara: You said that God cannot be approached except through bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What does that mean, bhakti ? Prabhupāda: Bhakti means devotion. There are nine kinds of bhakti : This śravaṇaṁ . . . just like you are patiently hearing, this is bhakti . If you don't do anything—if you simply patiently hear and try to understand—your life is successful. You don't require any education. God has given you these ears, but you must hear from the real person. If you hear from others . . . because without bhaktyā , nobody can give you. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . Unless you become bhakta , you cannot understand God. And if you do not understand God, then what is the use of hearing from you? Therefore so many nonsense are coming. They have no information of God; there is no benefit. But because these boys, these European boys and the American boys, are hearing from the right source, they are getting immediately the profit. Because God cannot be understood without bhakti . So people hear from a pure bhakta , then you understand God. It doesn't matter what is your stage, but if you simply give patient hearing, śravaṇaṁ , then kīrtanaṁ . And as soon as you . . . just like these boys, they have heard—now they have come out for kīrtanaṁ , for glorifying the Lord. There he is the son of a businessman, and I told him that, "Take the business of Mr. Sharma." He denied. (laughter) He denied. He has no more taste any more. Just see, a young boy, a businessman's son, an American boy, a rich man's son. Why? Bhakti pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). This is the test of bhakti , that he has no more any interest. Viraktir anyatra syāt : immediately there will be detestful, "What is this nonsense?" Just like a hungry man: if you give him food he will eat, but when his hunger is satisfied he will say: "No more. No, I don't want." So bhakti is like that, true bhakti , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . If you understand God then you say: "Oh, no more I am interested in the material . . ." This is going on. Just like there is the case of Dhruva Mahārāja. Dhruva Mahārāja, he was very much eager to have the empire of his father, and he wanted, he wanted to please God to get this benediction. But when by his penance and austerities he saw God, he said: "Oh, I am fully satisfied. I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42; *Hari*-bhakti-sudhodaya 7.28): "My dear Lord, I am completely satisfied." Spiritual understanding means complete satisfaction. You come to a stage where you become completely satisfied. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : there is no more hankering, no more lamenting, no more this. But if you do not educate people to the spiritual understanding, this hankering and lamentation will continue. I give you one example, very practical example: just like our Indian people came to Africa that, "We go to Africa; *there is very good field of business." They are hankering. And now there are some inconveniences, they are lamenting. Their input ever improved, their hankering is fulfilled, but now they are lamenting that, "We have to leave because we are not citizen." Also they have riches, they have everything—so once hankering, and then lamenting, and more lamenting then hankering. (laughs) This is going on. Just like pendulum, tock*-tock-tock-tock . (door opens) Therefore Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Aiye . . . that, "Don't remain in this platform of hankering and lamenting. Come to a platform where there will be no more hankering and lamenting." So that is the business of human form of life: to stop this business of hankering and lamenting. The material life means the hankering and lamenting—once hankering and then lamenting. (pause) (aside to guest) Wherefrom you are coming? Devotee (2): We met this gentleman today . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): . . . at a real estate agent's office. Prabhupāda: I see. So you invited him. Devotee (2): Yes. Guest (3): First time . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. You try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy. Lord Caitanya's mission was that in every part, in every corner of the world this philosophy must be spread. So we are trying to spread this philosophy. You take advantage of it; try to understand it and then take it. That is our mission. Guest: Just I have got a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: Taking into account that we are not these bodies but a soul, what is the . . . what do we understand or say when we dream? I might dream now about probably . . . (indistinct) . . . what can we learn from that, as far as the soul is concerned? Śyāmasundara: Dreaming. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: What is dreaming? How does that relate to the soul? Prabhupāda: Dreaming is hallucination. You see? It is the business of the mind. The mind is creating some other body. Just like you are thinking that you have got a body flying in the sky. So even in dream you forget that you have got real body or another body, which is lying on the bed. So it is a scientific fact—the mind creates by different desires, different types of body—that's a fact—and we forget the previous body. Just as dream, when you are dreaming, you forget that you are lying on the bed, you are active in a different way. So similarly, we had our past body, but we have forgotten it, as soon as . . . death means forgetfulness. We forget our past, everything—that is death. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is death. When dreaming we are also forgetting this body, but because it is not death we are coming back again this body, and in early in the morning we rise up, we catch up our duties, "Oh, we have to do this, I have to go there," and so on. But at night when dreaming you forget everything. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So this dreaming is another sample of death. Guest: Sample of death? Prabhupāda: Death. And as you are dreaming at night, as this is night dream, this our material life is day dream. It is also dream. Because what we create in the dream, that does not exist. Is it not a fact? Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: It exists for a few minutes only. So this dream also exists for a few years, that's all. This is also dream, it is simply for few years. But the who is dreaming, that is spirit soul. So we have to understand and come to that spiritual platform. That is your real business—not dreaming, either night or day. That is not your business. *Just try to understand. As dreaming at night is for a few minutes—five minutes, ten minutes or half an hour utmost, then it breaks—everything is lost—similarly, this material life is also dreaming for years, say for fifty or sixty or say hundred years, any, everything, mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Mṛtyuḥ means taking away everything what you have created by dreaming. *As soon as this body is changed, you forget everything, that I was Mr. Such*-and-such, I was African, I was American, I was this or that, black or white—everything forgotten, finished. So this is also dreaming. And as in dreaming sometimes we see the tiger has attacked me at night, or a goat has come and is crashing me, and so many things, and crying—sometimes it happens. But as there is no goats, no tiger, still you dreaming that there is goat, there is tiger, similarly in this way, in this life also, we are thinking, "He is my enemy; he is my friend," this is also dreaming. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nobody is your enemy; nobody is your friend. We have created by dreaming. So we have to get out of this dreaming at night and day and come to the Kṛṣṇa platform. Then our life is successful. Guest: I have got another question. You said that man has got a mind that is higher than animals; that is why a man tries to think more about God. Then why is it possible that man should be born, say, as a dog in the next life or something of the sort? Okay, so he has passed to this level of animal and has come to, I mean, the soul has come to the human society . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . what is the purpose of him going back to the animal kingdom? Prabhupāda: Because if you . . . if you live like animals, then you go to animals again. If you live like man, then you keep yourself man. And if you think like God, then you go to God. That is your business. (aside) Read the verse of this. So if you simply live a life like animal, then you go to the animal kingdom. If you prepare your life like human being, you remain here in a human society. If you prepare your life godly, you go to God. What is the difficulty? So that is the best benefit, you can prepare your life godly and go back to Godhead. This is a chance only. Just like you were in school: if you educate yourself nicely, in future you become very happy; and if you spoil your time, don't take education, then you are a loafer. *So this human form of life is a chance—either you remain as human society or you go back to Godhead or you go back to animals. That is your business. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthā (BG 14.18): they are elevated who are in the modes of goodness. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ : those who are in the modes of passion, they remain here. Jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā , adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ : and those who make their character jaghanya , most abominable, they go to the animals. What is the difficulty to understand? *It is not stereotype. The soul is described in the Vedic literature as sarva*-gā : he can go anywhere. He can go anywhere. Anywhere means he can go up, he can go down, or he can remain as he is, according to his work. Just like even in this life I can become illiterate, I can educate . . . I can become educated, if I try for that. The chance is there. The government is giving you a chance to everyone, but according to his own desires one is going to the prison house, one is becoming the high court judge. As it is possible in this life, similarly next life also, the same thing. You can elevate yourself to godly position, and you can stay in position what you are, and you can degrade yourself. Guest: I have got another question. If it is possible for the human soul to remain in the body of an animal, does that mean that the souls are all the same, whether it is created as life in an animal body or in a human being body? Does it mean the souls are the same? Śyāmasundara: All souls are the same? Prabhupāda: Yes. All souls are the same. Just like you are soul—you are in a black body; he is a soul, he is in a white body; I am Indian, I am in a different body; but the soul is the same. It is called dress, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). The body is dress. Because you are in white shirt and because he is in blue jersey, it does not mean you are different. You are the same. Similarly, we may have different bodies—a tiger may have different body and the godly man, the saintly man, may have different body—but the soul is the same. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *Vidyā*-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇa . According to Vedic civilization the brahmin is highly learned, vidyā-vinaya , and very gentle. He is considered to be the highest in the human society, the brahmin , vidyā-vinaya-sampanne . If we fall, he does not make any distinction. That is paṇḍita . That is real learned man. Guest: I have got another question. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: In the material form we have got a big man, small man, big animals and small animals . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, the spiritual form, there is no such thing. Guest: There's no big soul and small souls? Śyāmasundara: No big soul, no small soul—all the same size? Prabhupāda: Yes, the big soul there is: big soul is God. Guest: And apart from God? *Prabhupāda: And small soul we are. Both of them, we are souls. The big soul is God. Just like you and me, we are small souls, so we are dominating over this small body, but God, being big soul, He is dominating over everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi , sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). *Kṣetra*-jña. Kṣetra-jña means the body, one who knows the body. Just like I, I am soul—I know that this is my hand, this is my leg. This is called kṣetra-jña. Kṣetra means this body, and jña means one who knows. So I know everything of my body—not everything practically, but I know when I feel pain or pleasure I can know. But I cannot know what is your pain and pleasure. Therefore you are the master of your body, I am the master of my body. But Kṛṣṇa says: *"But I am also kṣetra*-jñaṁ . I am also present in every body." That is Supersoul, or big soul. *So just like there are two souls: big soul and a small soul. The small souls we are, and big soul is God. Big means all*-pervading. God knows what you are thinking, what you are feeling; but I cannot know what you're thinking, what you are feeling. Therefore I am small soul and God is the big soul. Just like I may be proprietor of this house, and you may be proprietor of that house, but the state is proprietor of everything—so there is big proprietor, the king. Similarly we are soul, God is soul, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Cetanā means living; nitya means eternal. We are all living and eternal. God is also living and eternal, but eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān , but that one maintains all the small. So God has provided food for everyone, all living entities. There are hundreds and thousands of living entities other than human beings. They have no business, they have no profession, but they have no economic problem. You may have never seen that a bird has died fasting or without food, or elephant has died without food. The elephant eats at a time hundred pounds, but he has got eating arrangement by God. The ant is eating only one grain, and it has got also arrangement. So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān : that one God, big soul, He is maintaining all living entities. These are the Vedic injunction. And actually we are being maintained by God. He is supplying rain. From rain there is grain, and you are eating grain—therefore you are living. Guest: I have got another question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: If I am not wrong, I think I am most like a chimpanzee and gorillas. They are considered as the . . . Prabhupāda: They are also supplied food by God. Because I have heard that here in Africa there are gorillas, and where they live there is a kind of tree, and the fruits of that tree is harder than the, I mean to say, iron bullet. (laughter) Yes. The fruits of that tree, the nut, so hard that you cannot break it by hammering. And the gorillas take it, and they chew it, "Very nice!" (laughter) So who has supplied these nuts there where gorillas live? Perhaps you know it, the gorillas in your country, and how in the book that they are supplied with these fruits. Who is supplying the fruits? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: That is God. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kāmān means all things I want. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying, God is supplying. We require sufficient water, so there are oceans, there are seas, stocked, and the water is salty so that it may not decompose. And the sun is engaged to evaporate the water and make it cloud and distribute all over the globe. And it is stored on the mountain, just like tank, and it is coming down like pipe, rivers. Every element is there. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ (ISO 1): everything is being controlled by God. Because the arrangement is complete, you see. It requires excessive amount of water. So just see: therefore the water portion is three fourths. Immense water supply, immense air supply, immense light supply, immense food supply—simply you are mismanaging. The birds, bees, animals, they never feel any scarcity of food. That day I was showing the bird was dancing, the monkey—they are jumping from one tree to another, enough food. They have no problems. *Brahmānanda: Except for the monkey*-eating birds. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Therefore that problem must be there; *otherwise how you will understand that this is a miserable place? However you may be very expert in making adjustments to your food supply and everything is there, still there will be trouble. That is called saṁsāra*-dāvāna . You cannot be happy here. Whatever you make arrangements you will feel unhappy, unless you come to your senses. This is God. Guest: I have got another question. What is the difference between a wisdom and knowledge, say as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: What is the difference between what? Guest: Difference between wisdom . . . Guest (3): Wisdom and . . . Guest: . . . knowledge, as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned? Śyāmasundara: What is the difference between wisdom and knowledge? Prabhupāda: Wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference. Guest: And which . . . Prabhupāda: Knowledge is wisdom; wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference. Guest: Which comes first? Prabhupāda: Which comes first? It is already existing. Because you are living, there is knowledge. Wisdom you can say is material knowledge, that's all. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But wisdom is also knowledge. Just like after experiencing much experience you become very wise. So wisdom you can say is material knowledge. So this is wisdom: to understand that "I am spirit soul. I am part and parcel of God; therefore my duty is to surrender unto God. He is big soul, I am small soul—He is providing me; therefore it is my duty to take shelter of Him." This is wisdom. "After many, many births of cultivating knowledge, when one actually becomes wise, He surrenders unto Me." To understand God is everything—that kind of great soul is very rare. So? Brahmānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: This will be a little bit outside our discussion. I understand that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains in India, there is a valley where the souls of the saints normally meet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Brahmānanda: He says that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains there is a valley where the saints meet. Guest: The souls of the . . . Devotee (2): The souls . . . Guest: . . . the martyrs and the saints . . . Prabhupāda: No saintly person will eat meat. Devotee (2): No, no. Where they will meet, they will congregate together. The souls of the saintly persons will congregate. You understand—it is a place in the Himalayas where the souls of the saintly persons congregate. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That can be possible by the Himalayas. Here it can be possible if you mix together in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are all good souls—then it would be possible. A saintly person does not mean that he has got something extraordinary. That extraordinary is this wisdom to understand God. That is saintly person. Sa mahātmā , vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti : one who knows that God is everything, God is the original cause of everything, he is saintly person. Śyāmasundara: This way. *Prabhupāda: He is sa*-mahātmā . Everything. And what is the business of mahātmā ? Mahātmā means he is under the spiritual nature, daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ . And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya : he has no more business except serving Kṛṣṇa. He does not want anything more. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha , daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty . To keep oneself under the protection of spiritual nature means he becomes liberated; he has no other aim. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha , daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ . Guest: I have got another question. This is, or is not so . . . I read in a certain book that a . . . say first of all taking into consideration that life . . . (indistinct) . . . in other planets apart from theirs . . . (indistinct) . . . I read in a certain book that these people, they normally visit earth . . . (indistinct) . . . whether it is true or not I don't know, but I have heard it . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . residents of those, that planet, they can fly, and they can go from one planet to another. Just like siddha*-loka . By mystic perfection in yoga you can do that also. Aṇimā , laghimā siddhi —you become light. Guest: Now if this, erm, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is He above, you know, the other idols, you worship them, the cows? Is He above them? Śyāmasundara: Is Lord Kṛṣṇa above all other forms of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the Supreme God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . there is, erm, it would appear that there is another God above Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then He's not supreme. If He is supreme, there cannot be any other God superior to Him. Guest: In India there are so many gods worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: Not many. God is one. Guest: Some people worship them. Prabhupāda: God means . . . of course, God, God means controller. The controller, everyone offers to the controller, some sort of controller. Just like Mr. Patel, he is controlling his business; he has got many men working under him. You may be an official; so many men may be working under you. I am also a human being, so many of my disciples they are working under me. So if God means controller, then everyone is controller, then everyone is God. But the thing is that we are not supreme controller. I am controlling my disciples, but if your government says that, "You can't preach here. You go away," I will go. I cannot deny it. Therefore although I am controller, I am not supreme controller. Similarly, Mr. Patel may be controller in his business—hundreds of men working under him—but he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who finds that he is controller, but he is controlled by somebody else. You take anyone—even your president—he is also controlled by somebody. So nobody is supreme controller. When it comes to a point who is not controlled by anyone, that is God. That is called supreme controller. He is controlling everybody, but He is not controlled by anyone. There's a test. If somebody comes before you and he says that, "I am God," you test him, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone. If you are controlled by somebody else, then you are not God." But people do not know what is the nature of God. This is the simple nature. If some rascal comes that, "I am God," so test him that, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone, then you are God; otherwise rascal." That is going on. Every day there is coming out a God. What kind of God he is? We don't accept such rascal as God. God is Kṛṣṇa, because He is not controlled by anybody. That is God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, He was never controlled by anyone, but He controlled everyone. That is God. Guest: So, erm, this word . . . Prabhupāda: God is the supreme controller. That is the small definition. Guest: So Kṛṣṇa means God. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. He is supreme controller. *Guest: All*-attractive . . . (indistinct) . . . coming from God . . . Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa is God. Guest: God. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is another name of God. Prabhupāda: You try to . . . (indistinct) . . . another name of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means black. Guest: Black? Prabhupāda: Black, yes. As you are black, similarly Kṛṣṇa is also black, but that does not mean any black man is God. Guest (2): Swāmījī, can some light be thrown on this thinking? Most of the people over here, they think that when Indians are showing their respect to the cows, some think that they, when they go to the temple, the cows idols are there, they throw milk and all this so many things on there, people think that we are really worshiping them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): So how far the ISKCON thinking is that when we pray to the gorakpur idols, some . . . (indistinct) . . . cow worship . . . *Prabhupāda: Because therefore you have to learn from your spiritual master. You cannot speculate. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you are asking me, you maybe have to learn all these things from your spiritual master. Vedic civilization, those who are following Vedic civilization, they worship cows. That is necessary. The cow produces miracle food, milk. So if you want to have good brain, then you have to take milk. Guest (2): Good brain? Prabhupāda: If you don't want to remain dull, then you have to take milk. Guest (2): Milk. *Prabhupāda: Therefore cow protection is necessary. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ , brāhmaṇa-karma svabhāva-jam . . . er, vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Those who are mercantile people, their business, according to Vedic . . . kṛṣi-go , agriculture. They should be engaged in agriculture and go-rakṣya , and protection of the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya and vāṇijyaṁ , and trade. That is three kinds of occupation. *So go*-rakṣya is the duty of the mercantile people, because without milk and grains, how you can live very decently? Therefore cows' . . . cow protection, go-rakṣya , not tiger- rakṣya . That is not mentioned. Go-rakṣya . There are many other animals—why they are particular about go, cows? That is significant. Because unless we have got sufficient milk supply, you cannot have nourishing food and you cannot develop good brain. Therefore it is necessary. Guest (2): Most essential; an essential animal. Therefore I . . . more respect with me. *Prabhupāda: In the prayers of Kṛṣṇa it is said, namo brahmaṇya*-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 1.19.65). Why especially the cow's name is there? When Kṛṣṇa, when He was present on this planet, He remained as a cowherds boy in His childhood. He gave protection to the cows. So it is the essential part of civilization. Guest: He protect the . . . all animals? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: He protected all animals. Brahmānanda: Are you asking did He protect all animals? The question is did He protect all animals, or just cows? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Jagaddhitāya . Guest: All the . . . Prabhupāda: All the animals, the whole world. But first preferences is to the cows and the brāhmins . Because without brahminical culture and sufficient supply of milk, that is not human civilization. Guest: In worshiping cows, do you think that there is nothing wrong about it, because Lord Kṛṣṇa does not consider it wrong to worship the cow? Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa does not consider it wrong to worship the cow? Prabhupāda: No, He personally worshiped cow. He showed the example. Guest (2): He used to take them for grazing, even. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So the actual, the actual doctrine is that you will not kill a cow? Devotee (2): The question was would we kill a cow? Guest: Yes. Devotee (2): Would we kill a cow? Prabhupāda: Who? Devotee (2): Would we? Prabhupāda: "We" means? Guest: Kṛṣṇa followers. Devotee (2): Would the devotees of Kṛṣṇa kill a cow? Prabhupāda: Who? No devotees of Kṛṣṇa would kill cow. Devotee (2): A devotee of Kṛṣṇa would not kill a cow. Prabhupāda: No, they would kill nobody. Kṛṣṇa's devotee would not kill even an ant, what to speak of cow. Cow is most important. Guest: Then would it be possible for . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa doctrine . . . (indistinct) . . . influence the government not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave them to God, or leave them to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What was that? Guest: Could you . . . Devotee (2): Would it be possible to influence the government . . . Guest: Yeah. Devotee (2): . . . not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave it to Kṛṣṇa, to leave it to God, to punish those? Prabhupāda: Well, at the present moment, no government is perfect. But no government is allowed to kill a cow. That's a fact. Why the government kills cows? Guest (2): If the people accept the proposal . . . (indistinct) . . . and if they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if . . . Prabhupāda: They won't kill a cow. Guest: They won't kill. Guest (2): There is no automatically . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We want that you become all Kṛṣṇa conscious and stop this slaughterhouse. Guest: You think that, he asked, not to kill a cow, is it accepted everywhere in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (2): Is it accepted everywhere in India? Prabhupāda: India is also killing cow, because they have degraded. Brahmānanda: Cow killing is going on also in India. Guest (2): No, it is not so much . . . Prabhupāda: No, they're making business, government. Guest: Hmm, by killing cows? Please tell me . . . (indistinct) Devotee (3): (whispers) Take prasādam . Guest: For their milk, yeah? Prabhupāda: In India there was government, when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was going on his tour, he saw that one man was attempting to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are trying, attempting to kill a cow in my kingdom." That was by cow protection. (aside) I am not going to. Keep it there and if I want, I require . . . Devotee (2): Keep it in the room. Woman devotee: Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: Even we get history during Muhammadan rule there was no slaughterhouse. There was no slaughterhouse. The Muhammadans ruled over India for eight hundred years, but there was not a single slaughterhouse. The slaughterhouse was introduced by the British government. Guest: In India? Prabhupāda: In India. The Muhammadans sometimes used to kill cow, but that was in the masjid during their Bakrid ceremony. Not daily. That also very secretly. The Muhammadans king, er, emperor, he knew that it would hurt the Hindu sentiment. He did not allow publicly. It was the creation of the British government to encourage, and our leaders, they were made in London, and they advocated, "Yes. Whatever is introduced by Britishers is all right." (laughter) Guest: I would like to ask another question. The Muhammadans . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): He says that other religions have their books. Which book does Kṛṣṇa have? Śyāmasundara: Ah, he thinks that Kṛṣṇa dreamed of this religion, or it came to Him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): He says that the Muhammadans are having a book like . . . Guest (4): The Koran was founded by the Bible. Prabhupāda: Oh! Guest: It was written from the Bible. What book . . . what is the foundation of Kṛṣṇa religion . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): He says that Muhammadans, they translated the Bible and then they made the Koran as their holy book, from where they take their all the source of their knowledge and all these things, inspiration. Now the people, the Kṛṣṇa conscious people, from what book do they get their source of inspiration from, which book or . . . Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the Bible got their inspiration? First of all let me know. As you say that the Muhammadan Koran was taken from Bible. Is it not? Anyway, you say. So wherefrom the Bible was taken? Guest (2): From where is the Bible? Guest: The Bible as we read was founded by prophets. Prabhupāda: Huh? As the Koran has a history, the Bible has a history also. Guest: So in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that history? What is that history? Wherefrom the Bible was inspired? Guest: (indistinct) . . . the disciples, the disciples . . . (indistinct) . . . performance of God . . . (indistinct) . . . different times . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So similarly, the Koran has been taken from Bible, and the Bible is from the disciples of God . . . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . then what is the wrong in the Koran? Guest: No, we wanted to know whether there was . . . (indistinct) . . . how was this thing founded? Where did He get His things from? Prabhupāda: Religion . . . the original religion is founded by God. Guest: But what is the root of it? Prabhupāda: God is the root of it, because God's parts and parcels have come to the material world to enjoy. So God has given that, "All right, you have come here to enjoy. You enjoy in this way, then you will in due course of time, you will again come back to Me." Guest: So God spoke to what religion? Prabhupāda: Eh? What? Whom He spoke, that is different thing. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is the principle. Śyāmasundara: He says, did God speak through Lord Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: No, no. Speak through Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is God himself. Not through, but He is God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . God. Devotee (2): No, He is God. Guest: Oh, He's God, God Himself. Prabhupāda: That's it. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God. Guest: It means that anything that is blessed, anything that is attractive, that is our own God . . . (indistinct) . . . then Kṛṣṇa has got thousands of ladies . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): Something good or something nice. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda has not said that. Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: The question was that it was said that God has many names; He is unlimited. So the question was, well, does it mean that one can just have any name, and that becomes a name of God? One can make up any name? Prabhupāda: "Any name" means must have some meaning. Guest: (indistinct) . . . say if there's something very good. Say you make a watch, which is . . . Prabhupāda: Not any name is God, but God has many names. Try to understand this. Guest: Because according to . . . Prabhupāda: God is unlimited, so He has got unlimited names. But not that any name is God. Guest (4): That is true. Prabhupāda: Try to understand this. Guest (2): Just like sun . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Say sun, sun, it was in our language we call it sūrya . Somebody might be calling it something else, but it is the same thing, how one calls. Prabhupāda: Either you call sun, or sūrya , the object is the same. Guest (2): The object is the same. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, any name which clarifies God, that is God's name. There is Kṛṣṇa, "all*-attractive." If this "all-attractive" name is applicable to God, then it is God's name. Also, kṛṣṇa means "black"; *that is another meaning. But if God is not all*-attractive, then how He can be God? Guest: (indistinct) . . . which is attractive, to meet God, love God . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . if you give Him a name which is attractive? Prabhupāda: It is not attractive, but any . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . the sunshine is not enough. Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness? Brahmānanda: Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness? *Prabhupāda: Well, unless one is holy, how he can be all*-attractive? Unholy, how he can be attractive? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Is a rogue attractive? Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Is a thief attractive? Guest: Something is there, but it won't last. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . a thief is attractive by his personality, but not by his heart. Guest (2): So he is not fully attractive. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But still, you cannot worship a thief. Guest: No, I don't think I can do it. *Prabhupāda: A thief may be attractive to a certain person, but he is not all*-attractive. One who is thief, he can appreciate a big thief. (laughter) That is another thief. But a thief is not all-attractive. Then if a thief . . . if somebody says: "One thief is coming to your home at night," oh, he becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . to your house. Devotee (3): But Kṛṣṇa can become a thief and be attractive. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa is so qualified. Just like the moon. There are spots in the moon—nobody considers about the spots. Everyone takes moon, "Oh, here is moon." Nobody considers. Eko 'si doṣāya, guni sanga parte nirvadyati . Kṛṣṇa has no fault. Even we take it as fault, one who has got many qualities, a little fault even there is, it is not taken account of. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). *Just like the sun: the sun is absorbing water from seas and oceans, and he is also absorbing water from your urine. So nobody is taking account, "Oh, sun is taking water from the urinal." (laughter) Immediately it can purify. By sun's touch the urine becomes pure. Even there is something faulty, by Kṛṣṇa's touch it becomes purified. That is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is all*-attractive. The same example: the sun is absorbing water from the urinal. Is sun polluted? Can you say: "Oh, the sun has taken water from urine, so it has become polluted"? Can you say that? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya . Therefore anyone who is very powerful, he has no fault. Even if you find some fault in him, there is no fault actually. But even if you think that it is fault, it is not taken. Sūrya , by absorbing urine, it is making purified that place. But if you say: "Oh, the sun is evaporating urine—it has become polluted," that is your shortness of understanding. That sūrya is purifying that place, very, very . . . (indistinct) Guest: How do they appear? . . . (indistinct) . . . came into this world? Brahmānanda: How long ago did Kṛṣṇa come into this world? Prabhupāda: Five thousand years. Guest: Five hundred years. Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Guest: Five thousand years. Prabhupāda: Five thousands of years. Guest: So two thousand years . . . Prabhupāda: Three thousand B.C. Guest: Three thousand B.C. Now if . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa attending the school or any society before He became a God? Brahmānanda: Did Kṛṣṇa attend any school or any society before He became a God? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: He was born. Prabhupāda: He was God from His childhood, from His babyhood. Guest: He was born. Prabhupāda: Since He was born. Guest: Like Jesus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: He is like Jesus? Prabhupāda: But I don't think Jesus was Christ from the very beginning. He was given the title when he was perfect. Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: He was given the title of Christ when he was perfect. Guest: When he was baptized. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: When he was baptized? Prabhupāda: Well, I don't know much about Jesus Christ. Guest: But how it is that Lord Kṛṣṇa exists now? Prabhupāda: Now first of all we are speaking of the philosophy of God. When you understand the philosophy of God, then you can question. Guest: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 24, 1971, Nairobi Guest: Is there any necessity of being seated in the position we are now here? That must be a simple question for them, if one doesn't know how to act, because . . . Prabhupāda: Is there necessity . . .? Śyāmasundara: To be . . . as we sitting in this manner. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Śyāmasundara: To be situated . . . (indistinct) Guest: Before I . . . Prabhupāda: Sit in certain posture? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: There is necessity to sit down in a certain posture? You ask like this? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . Guest: So there's no rules governing that? Prabhupāda: No. You sit like a gentleman, that's all. Guest: I see. When we are going to live today in the present world, we are having people who are having . . . I mean, we, we are told adultery is bad. Isn't it? Śyāmasundara: Adultery? Guest: That for me, adultery. Śyāmasundara: Adultery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Adultery is . . . Brahmānanda: Adultery—is that sex out of marriage? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And we are also told by . . . other people mention from the world that you should never divorce except on the account of adultery. Those are two questions. Third question is the present birth control that is being practiced, if it is good—to practice birth control as far as the Kṛṣṇa society is concerned. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa society prohibits illicit sex. Illicit sex. Guest: Illicit sex. Yes. *Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi ( BG 7.11). Kāma , lust, sex desire. Kṛṣṇa says that sex desire, which is not against the religious principles. "That I am." Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi . *How to realize Kṛṣṇa? In the every step of life you can realize God, provided you practice it. That is called bhakti*-yoga , that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8), "I am the taste of the water." So everyone drinks water and feels satisfaction. When he is thirsty and he drinks water, he becomes satisfied with the taste of the water. So Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste." So how one can say that, "I do not know God. I have not seen God. I have no experience of God"? God says: "Here is, I am." *Similarly, He says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8): "I am the shining of the sun, of the moon." So who has not seen the shining of the sun or the moon? Everyone has seen. So how do they say that, "Can you show me God?" Why don't you see God here? Why don't you see God in the taste of water? Why don't you see God in the sun shining. Why don't you see God in moonshine? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11): the lust, in the lust desire, there is also God. So what is that? What kind of lust? Dharmāviruddho : which is not against religious principles. *So this sex life is not denied, because eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is the necessity of the body. You cannot stop it. So there is concession that you can have sex life only for begetting children—for no other purpose. If you use sex life for any other purpose, that is against religious principles. There are other rules and regulations—that you can have sex with your wife five days after menstrual period, and if she is pregnant, then you cannot have sex life. So if you have sex life more than this, that is against religious principles. And if you become against religious principles, then you become sinful. And if you become sinful, then you cannot make progress towards God*-realization. *Because sinful man cannot make progress in God*-realization. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished his business in sinful activities, janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām —that simply they are engaged in pious activities—such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā , becomes delivered from all dualities, and dvandva-moha , bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ , then become perfect devotee. *So all these restrictions—illicit sex life, gambling, meat*-eating, intoxication—are prohibited just to give you protection from sinful life. Because if you remain sinful, then you cannot make progress in God-realization. Therefore these restrictions are there, no adultery. In one word, no illicit sex. Even if you have sex life with your wife beyond that limit—only once in a month after menstrual period, five days—that is also illicit sex. Illicit sex. So because the basic principle is that if you become more and more materially attached, then you cannot become free from this material bondage. Our present problem is that we are bound up by the material laws, guṇamayī māyā . We are strictly bound up. Just like even in your ordinary dealings, suppose if you eat more, oh, then immediately there will be indigestion. Suppose salt—salt is very important item for our eating—but if salt is put more in the vegetable, you cannot take it. And if there is no salt, oh, you cannot take it, oh "Give a little salt." So we have to take salt exactly to the amount which is necessity, nothing more, nothing less. That is nature's law. So if you violate nature's law, then you become immediately entrapped. Therefore these things are prohibited if you really require liberation. But people do not understand that, "I am in a very miserable condition of life." That is māyā . Just like Mr. Patel was complaining of so many things, "I am in a miserable condition of life." So we are entrapped by these material laws, and beyond this material life there is another life. That you do not know. And human life is meant for becoming prepared to go back to that life, because we are eternal. Guest: Eternal life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternal life. We are eternal, but at the present moment we have no eternal life. Guest: What is that eternal life? Would you . . . (indistinct) . . . for me? Prabhupāda: Eternal life means that there is no birth, death, disease and old age. That is eternal life. Guest: When is that going to be? Prabhupāda: When you come to the spiritual platform, that is possible. Guest: Is there any eternal life, other life, than the one we have at the moment . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. Guest: . . . which is more supernatural? Prabhupāda: Yes. Supernatural. Yes. That is . . . Guest: Will that be in a gathering of people where people would be living together? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are many people. Here in this non*-eternal life only a fragmental portion of the living entities—fragmental portion. All the living entities within this universe . . . this is one universe. There are unlimited, innumerable universes. *Just like you will see innumerable planets within this one universe, similarly, there are innumerable universes—innumerable suns, moons and other planets—and all of them combined together, that is the one*-fourth manifestation of God creation. That is stated: ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42). *Guest: So this is the conclusive evidence that there will be . . . the so*-called, the system of faith that is God, who brings men to the world, is it? And then you go to the new world? Is that what it means? The supernatural life for which I think one would not attain in the present world . . . Prabhupāda: As you are combination . . . just try to understand. You are combination of matter and spirit. You are talking with me. You are thinking that you are talking with your tongue or with your intelligence, with your brain, but one thing is there. As soon as that spirit soul is gone from you, the tongue will remain there, the brain substance will remain there, but no more talking. If you are thinking that the tongue is talking, the brain is talking, that is mistake. The soul is talking through the instrument of the tongue and brain. So these instruments are material; *therefore they are temporary. Anything material is temporary. The material law is that anything is born and manufactured at a certain date, it remains for some time, then there are some by*-products, then there is deterioration, then it is finished. This is the material world. So you have got a body, material body, which is born at a certain date. It will continue to a certain date. It will expand, it will give some by-products, then it will be old or deteriorate, and then it will be finished. And I am identifying with this body; therefore I am thinking that I am also finished with this body. But I am not finished. *Guest: So life is the by*-product of an individual? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guest: So it means life is a by*-product . . . Prabhupāda: Life is . . . at present moment we have got a short duration of life to fulfill a certain program. That's all. That is called karma . And when this body is finished, then you begin another chapter. That chapter may be very good or very bad, because good and bad, both things are there in the material world. There are 8,400,000's forms of life. Just like we are a human being, but your form of life is different from his form of life; his form of life is different from his form of life. Why? Because according to my desire and karma I have got a particular type of body. Similarly, in this life also, according to the particular type of work and mentality and everything, you will get another body. But all these lives are temporary—for a few years. That is our material condition. Everyone likes to have a permanent settlement; that is inner dictation. But nature will not allow. That is nature's law. Therefore the solution of problems means how to get out of the clutches of the material laws and come to the spiritual platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). So we are giving people the clue to understand the value of this life and prepare oneself in this life, so that next life we can get permanent life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: That is why one should do good things. Prabhupāda: Yes, definitely. If you want to be cured . . . just like if you are diseased, if you want to be cured, the physician gives you prescription, something do's and something do not's—"Do not this," and "Do this"—if you are serious about curing a disease. Similarly, if you want to cure your this material disease—material disease means birth, death, old age and disease—then you have to accept some regulative life, some do's and some do not's. Just like we are prescribing, very simple, these students, that "You chant sixteen rounds; *that's minimum—at least sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa." It is not difficult. And you do not, don't have illicit sex life, don't have intoxication, don't have meat*-eating, don't do gambling. So these are the five regulative . . . four regulative principles, and chant. Very simple. Anyone can do it. So these boys and girls, they are Europeans, Americans; from their birth they are habituated to these habits. But they have stopped, and they are not unhappy. So our program is only very simple, but improvement is very quick and evident—that you can see. What do you think, Mr. Patel? The improvement, the world is astonished. The Americans are asking them, "Are you Americans?" They could not imagine. Even the government, they are asking, "How you have stopped intoxication? We are spending so much money for stopping intoxication, LSD." But they have given up. As soon as they come to be initiated, entering. I say: "Stop this," immediately they stop. How they can stop? Guest: But there are people who don't take the intoxicants, neither do they smoke, neither do they do all sort of bad things, but still they follow . . . (indistinct) . . . no sex—that they follow. Where do those people stand? Prabhupāda: You see, I said there are some do not's and several do's—so they are following both. The do's they are also following. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . That will give you protection. Simply negating will not do. Just like a child, if you say: "Don't play," now, he can stop for some time, but if you don't give him some engagement and education then he will create mischief. Similarly, simply do not's will not help. You have to accept do's also, then your life will be successful. They have accepted more do not's than the do's. So anyone who takes up this training and then he becomes purified, and as soon as he becomes purified he will successfully goes back to home, back to Godhead. You have to change your body, that's a fact, or you have to die. So after death we have got a program: home, very nice home. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): one does not come back to take birth in this material world. Then where does he go? As the atheist philosopher says, that after the destruction of this body, is everything finished? No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti : "He comes to Me." Guest: Is it that all material things has got a beginning and an end, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Now, it means our world is material, so . . . finish Prabhupāda: Yes, this world will all finish. Guest: Everything will eventually end. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And where shall we be, all the living creatures, then? Prabhupāda: At that time? Guest: The material world is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikām (BG 9.7). Just like you are, when you are dead, your body is dead, then where do you live? You get another body. But not that immediately you get another body. Guest: Immediately. Prabhupāda: No, no. After end of this body you get another body. Guest: After how long? Prabhupāda: Therefore I said after how long, how? So the intermediate period you live somewhere—that you live in the womb of your mother, next body. Death means seven months, dreaming. That is death. Guest: Ah. I have proof that there is a country called America already, and I have proof there is place known as India, because some patients have gone to India and back here. So they are mean the truth, to us, India. Americans have gone to America and Britain—to Britain, the United Kingdom—and they have already come back here to confirm to us that there is such a place called . . . (indistinct) . . . has it ever been proved by any people . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many, many times. Guest: . . . that people are given new bodies and they come to the world and live? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. Therefore you accept the statement of the authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter in Bhagavad*-gītā , you'll see, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This system of yoga , first of all I explained to the sun-god." *So Arjuna inquired that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are born with me, You are contemporary, of the same age. How can I believe that You instructed this yoga system to the sun*-god that lives in the some millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered that "Both you and Me had many births, many births, but you have forgotten—I remember." That is the difference between God and ordinary humans. We may forget, but God does not forget, or very highly elevated devotees of God, they also do not forget. So we get information from such persons: God, Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva, Asita—many. There are many. We get information from them. Just like you get any information. Suppose people are going to the moon planet. You read in the papers, "The American scientists, they have gone to the moon planet." So you believe it. Is it not? But you did not go there personally; how do you believe it? Guest: Because they have been there and they can tell. Prabhupāda: Therefore. Kṛṣṇa is personally telling, Nārada is personally telling. Where have got experience. Guest: Kṛṣṇa died in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . nobody dies. You do not die, I do not die, Kṛṣṇa do not die—nobody dies. But you don't remember; Kṛṣṇa remembers. That's all. Guest: He died, and then He was born again. Prabhupāda: Nobody dies. Why do you say "die"? I say nobody dies. Guest: What happens? Prabhupāda: Change body. Nobody dies. First of all try to understand this. Just like if you change your this coat. Does it mean that you die? You may appear next day with another coat. You do not die. Just like in this life you had a body of childhood body, you had the body like a boy, you had a body like a . . . so you remember all these things, but "Yes, I had this body." So that body has gone, but you are still there. Guest: How many times does one die? How many times does one . . .? Prabhupāda: Unless he goes back to . . . unless he becomes liberated, goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has to die, take birth, repeatedly. Guest: So you can go . . . do you know the Christians? Prabhupāda: Don't bring in Christian and Hindu. Talk of philosophy. We are talking of philosophy. Guest: No, you see, it is a fact that I am dragging up, when I say: "Do you know them?" I know that you've heard of them, even if you have never associated with them. But they say that there is a place called the paradise. I never seen the place, nobody has ever seen the place. Prabhupāda: So how do they say? Guest: They say the world will end. Prabhupāda: Therefore how do they say? Guest: Unless people will be taken somewhere else. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How do they say? How . . .? You believe them? Guest: They say it. Prabhupāda: But they say, but you believe them? Guest: Well, that was the only form of worshiping that we had. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If it is stated in Christian religion like that, where do they take the authority for such statement? Guest: Where do they get . . .? Prabhupāda: Just like, the same instance, just like you believe that the Americans or the Russians went to this moon planet. So how do you believe it? Guest: I believe because somebody went there and back. Prabhupāda: That somebody you have not met. That is a scientist, it is stated in the paper. That means by the statement of the paper you believe it, because you take the paper as authority. Is it not? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: You did not go, but you read in the paper, and you take the authority of the paper; therefore you believe it. Guest: I believe through the paper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, we believe from the *Vedas* . Guest: Now we also believe in this through the paper. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You believe through the papers; we believe through the Vedic knowledge. Devotee: *Vedas* . Brahmānanda: Scripture Devotee: Veda . Guest: Faith. Devotee: No, no. Veda . Prabhupāda: Veda , the original book of knowledge. Veda means the original book of knowledge. *Mr. Patel: Have you seen this Vedic House? Vedic House, next to Barclays Bank? There is a Vedic House, v-e-d-i-c, Vedic House. It is from that word, you know, v-e-d*-a . Veda means knowledge. Guest: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: There is authoritative Vedas that is coming, time immemorial, and the system of Vedic civilization is that if it is stated in the Vedas , we accept it. That is truth. Śruti*-pramāṇa . It is called śruti . Vedas another name is śruti . Śruti . So śruti-pramāṇa . Whenever we require any evidence, if it is stated in the Vedas . . . that example I have given several times, those who are followers of Vedas , just like cow dung. Cow dung. You understand cow dung? Guest: Cow dan? Prabhupāda: Cow dung! Devotee: (translates) Guest: Cow dung. Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the stool of an animal. In the *Vedas* you will find that if you touch the stool of an animal, you become impure. Immediately you should wash. The Hindus, the Vedic followers, they do it—as soon as they touch even his own stool, goes to the toilet. And because the stool is already there in the belly, in the abdomen, but as soon as it comes out I become impure. That is Vedic system. You cannot argue. The stool is already there in the abdomen, and if it has come out, so how I become impure? But *Vedas* say: "Yes, you become impure. You immediately take your bath and wash your cloth." So the Vedic Indians, they are following. Similarly, again the Veda says that if you touch the stool of the cow you become pure. Now you can argue, "How is that? Once you said that if you touch the stool of an animal—human being is also animal—you become impure. Then how you say that cow dung is pure? It is speculative contradiction." But all Hindus, they take cow dung as pure. In the morning they'll bring cow dung and put with water and smear all over the houses, and you will find practically it starts . . . mopping with cow dung is there, even if it is very filthy place, immediately you will find refreshing. Immediately. In the village they haven't got big houses like this. They have got, I mean to say, huts, but the cleanliness is with cow dung. Is it not? Devotee: True, yes. Prabhupāda: So this cow dung is the stool of an animal. You can argue that "When I touch my own stool I become impure, now you say the stool of an animal, cow, that is pure?" That's a fact. We can see practically. Therefore if you want to make research, you can go on, but if you take directly knowledge from *Vedas* you save time. You get the thing immediately. That is Vedic knowledge. Therefore the Vedic civilization is that whatever I say, if it is confirmed by the Vedic statement, then my word is perfect. I don't require to make research. That is the Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda , Danur Veda , Yajur Veda , so many *Vedas* . *Vedas* mean knowledge, perfect knowledge. Therefore Vedic followers. What is that? Vedic House? *Mr. Patel: It's the property of Ārya*-samāj . Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the word is Vedic. So Vedic knowledge is perfect. But unfortunately we interpret Vedic knowledge. That is nonsense. If we interpret, then what is the authority of *Vedas* ? If you want to take Vedic version by checking with your imperfect knowledge or senses, then that Vedic knowledge becomes subservient to your test. That is nonsense. Therefore we, we do not change a single word. We take it as it is. That is accepted. The same example: *Vedas* says the cow dung is pure—we take it immediately, without any argument. We don't argue. What is the use of argument? It is confirmed. Vedic knowledge is perfect, whatever knowledge is given there, that is perfect, so why shall I argue? If I argue, then where is the perfection? If Vedic knowledge is depending on my test, then where is the authority? I am an imperfect person, and if *Vedas* have to be accepted by my imperfect test, then what is the authority of *Vedas* ? Guest: But then, Swāmījī, those who are ignorant, to them the question should be raised. *Prabhupāda: The ignorant . . . Veda is for the ignorant. Because we are ignorant, therefore we have to take shelter of the Vedic knowledge. That is Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you go to school, you take the assistance of a teacher and become educated. Similarly, you have to take the knowledge, Vedic knowledge, from the real person who has learned Vedas by the disciplic succession. That is the way. You cannot interpret. Just like we are preaching. What we are preaching? The same way, the Vedic knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says— Bhagavad*-gītā is Vedic knowledge—so Kṛṣṇa says: So what is our business? Our business is to speak the same thing. We are teaching, or propagating, asking people that, "You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." *So we have no difficulty. But because we are speaking the same truth as it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it has become successful. That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I have not manufactured anything. What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Everyone knows Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I am preaching them properly, it has became success. Just see. Within four and five years it has spread all over the world. So only technique is that I am not adulterating it. That is my credit. That's all. And what is that credit? It is very easy. Kṛṣṇa says: I say to my disciples, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Just surrender, and your life is successful," and they are doing that. There is nothing difficult, simply you have to take as it is. That is the authority of *Vedas* . As soon as you interpret, you become rascal, immediately. Then there is no effect. *Just like if a doctor says: "Take this medicine in such*-and-such dose," and if you say: "No, let me add something," it will not be effective. The same way, just like I have said, you can take salt in such proportion. You cannot take more, you cannot take less. This is Vedic knowledge. You cannot interpret a single word. You have to take it as it is; then it will be effective. And it is practically being done. I am very careful not to adulterate, and that it is effective. *They are also following my instruction as it is in the Vedas . Kṛṣṇa says, yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So these four pillars of pāpaṁ , sinful life, I say: "Don't do this," then they are following. I say: "Chant", the Veda says: I say: "Oh, you must chant. It is the injunction." That is the relationship between the spiritual master, ācārya , and the disciple. Ācārya must know what is there in the Vedic śāstra , and he personally accept it and teach to his disciples. If that is done, the work is done. So if the ācārya is adulterated, if the student is adulterated, then it will not take place. So strictly, no other version—then you will find it effective, immediately. Just like a woman and man, sexual intercourse. If the man is powerful, he has got real strength, there is pregnancy. And if the woman is not . . . (indistinct) . . . there is pregnancy. Similarly, if the student and the master is pure and his instruction is pure, then there will be effect. There is no jugglery or magic. They say: "Swāmījī, you have done magic," but I have not done anything magic. My magic is that I am presenting things as it is, and they are being accepted as it is, and it is being effective. There is no secret; it is open secret. Simply you have to take strictly, according to the principles. Then it will be effective. Guest: And therefore there is no question about the result? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: And therefore there will be no question . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Vedic knowledge. In Āyurveda , Āyurveda also, that I have . . . (indistinct) . . . studied, the system is that their basic principle of treatment is three elements: kapha , pitta , vāyu . The . . . within this body, these things are working. When they are working in parallel line, in order, there is no disease; there cannot be any disease—neutral state. *As soon as kapha , pitta , vāyu becomes increased, one's balance, then there are diseases. So that can be understood, that their only technique is to study this pulse*-beating. Therefore symptoms. If the pulse is beating like this, then it is due to increase of kapha; if the pulse is beating like this . . . that is their science. *So even in these days if you go to an experienced Āyurvedic physician, he will take half an hour at least to study how your pulse is beating. Nari*-jña it is called. And immediately he gives the pulse-beating to a formula. The formula: if the pulse is beating like this, then this is the disease, and this is the symptom. So immediately, according to that formula, he asks, "Do you get the symptom?" "Yes." "Do you get this? You do not like this?" "Yes." That is kapha . And immediately medicine is ready. For this symptom, this medicine give him. That is Āyurvedic system. *So in Āyurvedic system there is no experiment, there is no dissection, you see? There is no irregularities or blind . . . (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) . . . experiment. Simply external. There is no big studies. And here, how the matter is simplified—simply you try to study the pulse*-beating, and the symptoms are stated in this . . . similarly, you are doing this. *But we understand from the Vedic knowledge that anyone who is sinfully attracted, he cannot have any God*-realization. So how do you make him . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda says, striyaḥ sūnā pāna dyūta yatrā pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Sinful life means these four things: illicit sex-life, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā . *These four kinds of sinful life is the pillars of all sinful life, and if you make a study that all sinful activities are going on on these four pillars: illicit sex life, gambling, meat*-eating and intoxication. When you become too much intoxicated, habituated to intoxicants, you don't, I mean to say, fear to become a thief, steal others' property. More and more you become implicated. The beginning is these things. So if you avoid these, then your sinful life is stopped, and as soon as your sinful life is stopped, you can realize God, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So we have got very simple formula in the Vedic knowledge. People should simply agree to accept this; then their life is successful. That's all. But they do not agree, what can I do? So our business is . . . Guest: The difficulty . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: They recall their difficulty. Prabhupāda: There is nothing difficult. Guest: Those who are . . . *Prabhupāda: Then what they have got, this birth by . . . (indistinct) . . . you are thinking "difficult", what is difficult? But giving up meat*-eating, what is the difficulty? Guest: Some of the rules are rather difficult, you know. *Prabhupāda: It is thinking. Because that is māyā . You are thinking difficult. It is not at all difficult. How these boys, they gave up? Illicit sex*-life was their life, in Europe and America, from the very childhood. How they are giving up? Guest: Something for them, you know, the hidden pleasures, in taking . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you like you can give it up. That's possible. And that giving up, that status you can maintain if you do the do's. Chant—that will protect you. Both things. So the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . (aside) Aiye . . . is very simple, very, very simple, and there is no difficulty at all. Simply one must agree. (aside) Aiye . Guest: It is true. But to start with . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the process, sat*-saṅga . Therefore we are opening centers. You come to our association, like these boys. First of all they are not asked that, "You have to do this." No. If I ask, how they will do? No. If they come, that is also very nice process. If you simply come—you don't do this, simply go on hearing—you will be God conscious. But you do not come, you see? People are not coming. That means they have no meaning left. Guest: No, they don't want to do away with their old . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then if you need . . . if you don't want to do something, that is another thing. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: Out of many thousands and millions of people, one becomes interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not an ordinary thing. It is difficult, very difficult, but one intelligent person, although he knows it is very difficult: "Why not try?" And that is intelligence. What is the difficulty? Are they starving because they are not eating meat? We are giving them better food— kachorī , lucī , sandeśa , sweet balls, samosā and khicuṛi (devotees laugh)—anyone who comes, "Oh, it is very nice!" What is the loss there? Now here is a brahmacārī , here is a gṛhastha , here is a sannyāsa . According to suitability you can remain a brahmacārī or you can become a sannyāsa or you remain a gṛhastha . There is no such that "You have to become a sannyāsī ." No. You remain a gṛhastha , but don't spoil your life. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , you follow the rules and regulations of gṛhastha life, you become perfect. So for everyone there is chance, and it is not that . . . because according to Vedic system there are four castes: brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and lower than the śūdras , pañcama . So it is not prohibited for anyone. I mean anyone can take—the brāhmin can take, the śūdra can take, the others who are less than śūdra , they can take. So the door is open for everyone. The matter is very simple. Simply you have to take it and become successful in your life. And the knowledge is perfect, from the *Vedas* , now it is up to you. You take it or don't take it, that is your business. So I am requesting you, you remain interested; instead of arguing continually, you please take to this business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda . Is that very difficult? Guest: Not necessarily. One can try. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: We are inviting come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dance and take prasādam . That is also difficult, then what can be done? They are chanting, dancing—that's a pleasure—and after that, taking prasādam , that is another pleasure. That is also difficult, then what can be done? Guest: That's why there is no suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then you must suffer. That is a fact. If there is dancing in the ball*-dance hall, thousands of people will go. But this dancing, nobody will come. That is māyā . Māyā dictates, "Oh, why you are going there? There is ball dance. Dance there." So we have to little protect ourselves from the dictation of māyā . That will also give strength. Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 4.11): if you become a little strong and determined, "No, no, I shall not go to the ball dance, I shall go to the Kṛṣṇa conscious dance," then your life is successful. That much determination you must have. That is up to you. And we are distributing this knowledge free. Such topmost knowledge, we are distributing free, don't charge. What is the loss? Suppose I ask you: "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds," it is very easy. So if you chant sixteen rounds Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , what is your loss? But if there is gain, why don't you take it? There is a story that an old woman was dying, and her son said: "Mother, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So when they were repeating, "Mother, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so she becomes disgusted, "Why? I cannot say so many words." "I cannot say so many words . . ." Guest: That she is already saying. Prabhupāda: . . . but not "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You see? There are four words only, Hare, Kṛṣṇa; two words. "Oh, I cannot say all in all." This is our position. We can waste our time in so many ways, but if I say to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, you'll disagree: "Oh, I cannot do it." This is our misfortune. So we have to become a little strong: "Yes, I must. I must." Then . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your loss? So that is our requirement, that: Very simple method. They will try to press the nose, to make the head down and make yoga , and he becomes God within six months—these cheating, these rascals are very . . . (indistinct) . . . and simple thing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, they will not accept. What can be done? And the result is there. They are Americans; *what they want? That is a country of dollars. Earn ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty*-five dollars—so that is nothing in this country. Daily they can spend, even in one hour, they are so rich. Anyone can earn thousands of rupees in our Indian exchange. *Just like their lowest guarantee, four hundred dollars. So four hundred dollars in Indian exchange, four thousand rupees. So one who is making four thousand rupees per month, he is a rich man. And in America that is the lowest, that is the lowest, for the poorest man. And they are earning fifty thousand, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand. So money is nothing. *So they have got enough money, they have got enough women, they have got enough wine, enough slaughterhouse—but they are disgusted. Now the young boys and girls, they have become hippies, frustration. They think that there is no life. So if we imitate only on these four principles—enough woman, enough intoxication, enough meat*-eating, enough gambling—you pay, because you have already paid. It is a fact. Now it has become a problem; so many young men, they have become hippies, they are not working at all. You see? The government, without finding any other jobs, they have created this Vietnam—they are killing the boys. That's all. The Vietnam show is for killing these poor boys, that's all. They call draft, "Come on you go to war." But, they cannot check; they have no means. And here is the means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Therefore they are taking. So you are growing nation. If you grow like the Americans and Europeans you will never be happy. You take this culture, you will be happy. That is the open secret. Nobody has become happy with this material advancement. So we do not check material advancement, but we simply want to change the consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like Arjuna, he was not stopped fighting. That is material. But his consciousness was changed. We wanted that. We do in that way. You do material advancement, but change your consciousness. That is our movement. Do not stop. Arjuna . . . Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna, "Oh, you take sannyāsa and go to the Himalaya and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." No. That is not our program. You do. You are Professor. You remain engaged in your occupational duties but be Kṛṣṇa conscious, sve karmaṇa , by your duty. Then you will get saṁsiddhiṁ , the highest perfection. He never said that "You stop your business, stop your profession, and go to Himalaya." No. He simply says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then all the kind . . . (indistinct) . . . picture, where it was? Śyāmasundara: New Yorker Magazine ? Prabhupāda: Somewhere else. One old gentleman and old lady, the old lady requesting her husband: "Chant, chant, chant," and the old man is saying, "Can't, can't, can't." (laughter) This is the position. We are simply asking people, "Chant, chant, chant," and they are replying, "Can't, can't, can't." This is the rascaldom. If you simply say: "Yes, yes, yes," then everything, the whole thing will be saved. But they will not take it. They will say: "Can't, can't, can't." Guest: Swāmījī, what sort of power is in chanting the name, because . . . Prabhupāda: We associate with God. Guest: . . . but is it not that if you follow these actions, that is much more strong. Prabhupāda: What is that action? You are fools, rascals—what is your action? Now who is stronger? What is your action? What is the value of your action? Just like these children: what is the value of their action? They are simply to be protected from doing mischievous activities. If you are in knowledge . . . if you do not know the value of your life, what is the value of your activities? Guest: There could be majority, the mass of people who might be chanting the name, but if they don't know what they are chanting for, then . . . Prabhupāda: That they will know everything. They are simply chanting— sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Do you mean to say they are fools because they are chanting? Guest: No, but they are educated; they know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Educated or not educated, you may not . . . even one is not educated, he has no other business. That is the effect. *Vedas* says. Then you have to go to the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3): if you know the Supreme Absolute Truth, then everything becomes revealed to you. We are challenging so many philosophers, so many scientists. Does it mean that I was a student of science? No. But we can challenge, because the knowledge is revealed. Just like I told . . . (indistinct) . . . some reporter came to me, asked me: "Swāmījī, what is your opinion about this moon planet going?" I said, "It is simply waste of time and nonsense." I asked them, "Shall I speak plain, or shall I flatter you?" They said, "No, we speak plain." I said: "It is simply a waste of time and nonsense." So I'm not a scientist; *how could I say? How could I say? On the Vedic knowledge. Vedic version is, and Bhagavad*-gītā you will see: The moon planet is considered one of the planets of the demigods, so you have to become a devotee of that demigod or cultivate that knowledge. You hear, then you will get the body to be transferred in that planet. You cannot go in this body. Now how you can refute this argument? We get knowledge that unless they have trained themselves how to go to the moon planet, they cannot go. We take it. So therefore how much they may . . . how hard they may try to go there, they cannot go. How can I say? On the Vedic strength. We are not trained up. Just like one can see, suppose one African is trying to go to India or, say, UK. So if I see that he has not passport, he has not got passport and visa, then I can immediately, "No, you cannot go." There is no necessity of knowledge how I say. I say: "Because he has no passport and visa, he cannot go." Similarly, from the Vedic knowledge we understand unless one becomes a devotee of that particular type of demigod, he cannot go. Therefore we can say: "You cannot go." However they may try with this machine, that is not possible. This is perfect knowledge. I am not a scientist; I am not criticizing the scientific process. But because I know that the Veda says that they cannot go, I say: "You cannot go." *Now Veda says they cannot go, now we challenge. And so let the scientist come and prove. That is Vedic knowledge. Let them go. Now they are silent. By making so much false propaganda, now they are silent. They cannot go in this way, machine. You cannot go to America by force, by your machine. You have to take the visa, immigration visa. So how can you go to the moon planet? We get from the Vedic knowledge that in moon planet one gets ten thousand of years' life. And that planet is very cold. They drink soma*-rasa . They . . . all the Vedic scriptures. So on the Vedic scriptural strength we can challenge anyone. Therefore the Vedic knowledge says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati : if you simply understand the Absolute Truth, then you become . . . you know everything. Guest: Do you think that they have ever been to the moon now? Prabhupāda: Never! I challenge them. This is simply all propaganda. If they had been, then what they have gained? Why they do not go and make some business there? Guest: At the moment . . . Prabhupāda: They have brought some rocks and sand, that's all. Why they say there is no life? If the planet is there, we find that in experience that even within the earth there is living entity, within the water there is living entity, in the air there is living entity. And what moon planet has done there is no living entity? What is your answer? Although they have got some sands and rocks, the sands and rocks are there, and there is no living entity? How it is possible? By experience we see here, sands and rocks are there, but there are living entities; and there you have got sands and rocks but there is no living entities. First of all answer this challenge. And we get information from Vedic literature that there are demigods, they are very highly elevated, intellectual persons, they live for ten thousands of years. And these people say there is no life. Therefore we don't believe it. First of all show within your experience. Go anywhere—even in the desert there is living entity. (aside) What you are thinking? Devotee: I think that we should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . for distribution. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: For me go to the . . . (indistinct) . . . so there are many reasons, you see. If you study, if you accept the Vedic conclusion, you save so much time, so much time, and you get the right information. And that is perfection. So chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means associating with God directly. *So we are associating with God, then we become purified. Just like if you associate with fire you become warm, gradually, this is the example. You put one iron rod in the fire, it is warmer and warmer and warmer, and then it is red*-hot, and when it is red-hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch that iron rod anywhere, it will burn. Similarly, if you associate with God, then you become godly, you become purified. And the matter is so simple. The Vedic śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer . . . three times stating, "It is this, it is this, it is this." If you follow the Vedic instruction you will get success, without arguing. And what is the difficulty there? Guest: There's no difficulty. Prabhupāda: Then why there is argument? Why not try it? Such a simple method that even a child can do. If this child is asked: "You chant," she will chant directly. Such a yoga system that can be accepted by child even. And the Vedic knowledge says: "There is no other way, no other way, no other way." Why not take it? Why this obstinacy? That is our misfortune. Our program is very simple: come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dance with us. Even if you don't dance, take little prasādam , go away. Why there is so much objection to this? We don't ask anything, that "You pay here fifty dollars, and press your nose and make your hand and do that, so many." So what is the difficulty? We don't charge anything. Just try the method . . . (indistinct) . . . boli . Why there is objection? Just so you answer this, that why there is objection? This simple method, this sublime method, why there is objection? Guest: Can I tell you what I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Because there are so many institutions, there are so many sects, so many religious, I mean, erm . . . Prabhupāda: But here there is no religion, there is no sect. We call Indian, we call European, American, African, brahmin , kṣatriya , śūdra . At least here there is no sect. Why you are bringing "sects"? Guest: No, but at the moment . . . Prabhupāda: There may be so many rascals; that is another thing. Here there is no rascaldom. Here is taught that anyone, you are welcome. Where is the question of "sects" or "religion"? Guest: No, not over here, but I am telling . . . Prabhupāda: Don't bring in so many things. But why you are . . . Guest: Unless they are convinced or unless they see why . . . Prabhupāda: What are the convictions? What is the conviction? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the necessity of convictions? Guest: No, but there might be a ṛṣi . . . (indistinct) . . . there might be so many people telling them . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is misfortune only, that's all. Guest: They'll know the difference how the real faith, the real . . . Prabhupāda: The difference is already there, but they are rascals; *they do not know. It is stated very clear in the Vedic knowledge, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that: *Those who worship other demigods, they are rascals, hṛta*-jñānāḥ . That is clearly stated. So if you want to remain rascal, how I can be faulted? Hṛta-jñānāḥ . Because what does it mean, hṛta-jñānāḥ ? You know the Sanskrit? Guest: Little bit *Prabhupāda: Yes, hṛta*-jñānāḥ means one who has lost his intelligence. That means he's a rascal. This is clearly stated: *Even if you get result, results from the demigods, it is antava : it will be finished. It will be finished. Tad bhavaty al . . . therefore people who are alpa*-medhasām , less intelligent, they are satisfied with some temporary purpose, that's all. Now there is a . . . it is going on, Navaratri, Durgā. That's all right. Durgā will pay, dhanaṁ dehi vimukti bharyam dehi yaśo dehi rūpaṁ. All right, Goddess Durgā gives you. But how long you will enjoy this? *As soon as your body is finished, your beautiful wife, your money, your friend, everything's finished. Therefore, alpa*-medhasām : less intelligent. Their brain substance is very small, therefore they are after these things. The problem is eternal life. These are all clearly stated. But you don't accept the Vedas . That is the difficulty. Guest: Because they have not been preached in the true sense. Prabhupāda: If you want to remain here preaching, they are not coming; they are accepting. Guest: They will come. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. We have come out to preach. Guest: People will come . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . once they know. Because now they have become, what you call, they have reached to the saturated point. They have saturated. So many beggars . . . *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata*-dharma is the beginning. In the Bhāgavata it is stated, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). You read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Anything is that is going on in the name of religion, but it is simply cheating, that is thrown out. That also you cannot do properly at the present moment. Deva-pūjā , pūjayā , yajña , described in the śāstras , you cannot do. That is also simply humbug. There are so many rules and regulations for performing yajña; you cannot . . . therefore it is said: You cannot do it properly. Suppose you perform yajña . So where is the pure ghee , and so many tons? So what is the use of putting three . . . (indistinct) . . . of ghee and performing yajña ? People are so . . . because they want to be cheated, and they are cheated by the cheaters. That is the position. They want to be cheated. What can be done? If the cheaters see there is a very good market of being cheated, they will come: "Yes, I am God. I will make you God," and this and that. So these things should be stopped, and it should be taken: Any . . . (indistinct) . . . simple thing. (break) (indistinct Hindi) *Whatever your religion is, that's all right. By performing it very nicely, if you do not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, it is simply waste of time. Yes. Yes. So if you go, kindly help us. (break) . . . interpretation, so many ways, yet they are speaking nonsense. And therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Somebody says it is yogic bhakar , somebody it is jñānic bhakar , this bhakar , that bhakar . Guest: And then they become difficult to follow which one to follow, and so they become so much confused. So they are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. People, people should know that . . . they should be little intelligent. Therefore without being intelligent you cannot make progress. Ignorance is the cause of all difficulties. So Bhagavad*-gītā , if you have read Bhagavad-gītā , it is said there that Bhagavad-gītā is being preached to Arjuna, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I am teaching this Bhagavad-gītā again. *Although I taught this philosophy to the sun*-god so many millions of years ago, again I am teaching the same to you." "Why? To me? There are so many others." He says: "No," bhakto 'si , "because you are My devotee." Now how one can understand Bhagavad-gītā who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: What right you have got? He means to preach this philosophy to the devotees. How the non*-devotees, they can understand? They do not understand Bhagavad-gītā , still they write commentary. Suppose I am a preacher of spiritual subject matter, and Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a goldsmith. So if I write on a book on goldsmith, what is the value of this book? Is there any value? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for devotee. Why the other rascals write on commentation? Simply waste their time and mislead others. This is going on. Guest: The same thing has happened here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere it is happening, the whole world over. We are touring all over the world, simply people are being cheated. And they want to be cheated. Guest: And now if you bring truth in front of them, still they will say that . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . what can be done? (break) Guest: . . . thinking that people will come here, we might have to go to them, you know, expecting them here. Prabhupāda: Well, we can do any way . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 24, 1971, Nairobi Guest: Is there any necessity of being seated in the position we are now here? That must be a simple question for them, if one doesn't know how to act, because . . . Prabhupāda: Is there necessity . . .? Śyāmasundara: To be . . . as we sitting in this manner. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Śyāmasundara: To be situated . . . (indistinct) Guest: Before I . . . Prabhupāda: Sit in certain posture? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: There is necessity to sit down in a certain posture? You ask like this? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . Guest: So there's no rules governing that? Prabhupāda: No. You sit like a gentleman, that's all. Guest: I see. When we are going to live today in the present world, we are having people who are having . . . I mean, we, we are told adultery is bad. Isn't it? Śyāmasundara: Adultery? Guest: That for me, adultery. Śyāmasundara: Adultery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Adultery is . . . Brahmānanda: Adultery—is that sex out of marriage? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And we are also told by . . . other people mention from the world that you should never divorce except on the account of adultery. Those are two questions. Third question is the present birth control that is being practiced, if it is good—to practice birth control as far as the Kṛṣṇa society is concerned. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa society prohibits illicit sex. Illicit sex. Guest: Illicit sex. Yes. *Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi ( BG 7.11). Kāma , lust, sex desire. Kṛṣṇa says that sex desire, which is not against the religious principles. "That I am." Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi . *How to realize Kṛṣṇa? In the every step of life you can realize God, provided you practice it. That is called bhakti*-yoga , that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8), "I am the taste of the water." So everyone drinks water and feels satisfaction. When he is thirsty and he drinks water, he becomes satisfied with the taste of the water. So Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste." So how one can say that, "I do not know God. I have not seen God. I have no experience of God"? God says: "Here is, I am." *Similarly, He says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8): "I am the shining of the sun, of the moon." So who has not seen the shining of the sun or the moon? Everyone has seen. So how do they say that, "Can you show me God?" Why don't you see God here? Why don't you see God in the taste of water? Why don't you see God in the sun shining. Why don't you see God in moonshine? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11): the lust, in the lust desire, there is also God. So what is that? What kind of lust? Dharmāviruddho : which is not against religious principles. *So this sex life is not denied, because eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is the necessity of the body. You cannot stop it. So there is concession that you can have sex life only for begetting children—for no other purpose. If you use sex life for any other purpose, that is against religious principles. There are other rules and regulations—that you can have sex with your wife five days after menstrual period, and if she is pregnant, then you cannot have sex life. So if you have sex life more than this, that is against religious principles. And if you become against religious principles, then you become sinful. And if you become sinful, then you cannot make progress towards God*-realization. *Because sinful man cannot make progress in God*-realization. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished his business in sinful activities, janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām —that simply they are engaged in pious activities—such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā , becomes delivered from all dualities, and dvandva-moha , bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ , then become perfect devotee. *So all these restrictions—illicit sex life, gambling, meat*-eating, intoxication—are prohibited just to give you protection from sinful life. Because if you remain sinful, then you cannot make progress in God-realization. Therefore these restrictions are there, no adultery. In one word, no illicit sex. Even if you have sex life with your wife beyond that limit—only once in a month after menstrual period, five days—that is also illicit sex. Illicit sex. So because the basic principle is that if you become more and more materially attached, then you cannot become free from this material bondage. Our present problem is that we are bound up by the material laws, guṇamayī māyā . We are strictly bound up. Just like even in your ordinary dealings, suppose if you eat more, oh, then immediately there will be indigestion. Suppose salt—salt is very important item for our eating—but if salt is put more in the vegetable, you cannot take it. And if there is no salt, oh, you cannot take it, oh "Give a little salt." So we have to take salt exactly to the amount which is necessity, nothing more, nothing less. That is nature's law. So if you violate nature's law, then you become immediately entrapped. Therefore these things are prohibited if you really require liberation. But people do not understand that, "I am in a very miserable condition of life." That is māyā . Just like Mr. Patel was complaining of so many things, "I am in a miserable condition of life." So we are entrapped by these material laws, and beyond this material life there is another life. That you do not know. And human life is meant for becoming prepared to go back to that life, because we are eternal. Guest: Eternal life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternal life. We are eternal, but at the present moment we have no eternal life. Guest: What is that eternal life? Would you . . . (indistinct) . . . for me? Prabhupāda: Eternal life means that there is no birth, death, disease and old age. That is eternal life. Guest: When is that going to be? Prabhupāda: When you come to the spiritual platform, that is possible. Guest: Is there any eternal life, other life, than the one we have at the moment . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. Guest: . . . which is more supernatural? Prabhupāda: Yes. Supernatural. Yes. That is . . . Guest: Will that be in a gathering of people where people would be living together? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are many people. Here in this non*-eternal life only a fragmental portion of the living entities—fragmental portion. All the living entities within this universe . . . this is one universe. There are unlimited, innumerable universes. *Just like you will see innumerable planets within this one universe, similarly, there are innumerable universes—innumerable suns, moons and other planets—and all of them combined together, that is the one*-fourth manifestation of God creation. That is stated: ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42). *Guest: So this is the conclusive evidence that there will be . . . the so*-called, the system of faith that is God, who brings men to the world, is it? And then you go to the new world? Is that what it means? The supernatural life for which I think one would not attain in the present world . . . Prabhupāda: As you are combination . . . just try to understand. You are combination of matter and spirit. You are talking with me. You are thinking that you are talking with your tongue or with your intelligence, with your brain, but one thing is there. As soon as that spirit soul is gone from you, the tongue will remain there, the brain substance will remain there, but no more talking. If you are thinking that the tongue is talking, the brain is talking, that is mistake. The soul is talking through the instrument of the tongue and brain. So these instruments are material; *therefore they are temporary. Anything material is temporary. The material law is that anything is born and manufactured at a certain date, it remains for some time, then there are some by*-products, then there is deterioration, then it is finished. This is the material world. So you have got a body, material body, which is born at a certain date. It will continue to a certain date. It will expand, it will give some by-products, then it will be old or deteriorate, and then it will be finished. And I am identifying with this body; therefore I am thinking that I am also finished with this body. But I am not finished. *Guest: So life is the by*-product of an individual? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guest: So it means life is a by*-product . . . Prabhupāda: Life is . . . at present moment we have got a short duration of life to fulfill a certain program. That's all. That is called karma . And when this body is finished, then you begin another chapter. That chapter may be very good or very bad, because good and bad, both things are there in the material world. There are 8,400,000's forms of life. Just like we are a human being, but your form of life is different from his form of life; his form of life is different from his form of life. Why? Because according to my desire and karma I have got a particular type of body. Similarly, in this life also, according to the particular type of work and mentality and everything, you will get another body. But all these lives are temporary—for a few years. That is our material condition. Everyone likes to have a permanent settlement; that is inner dictation. But nature will not allow. That is nature's law. Therefore the solution of problems means how to get out of the clutches of the material laws and come to the spiritual platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). So we are giving people the clue to understand the value of this life and prepare oneself in this life, so that next life we can get permanent life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: That is why one should do good things. Prabhupāda: Yes, definitely. If you want to be cured . . . just like if you are diseased, if you want to be cured, the physician gives you prescription, something do's and something do not's—"Do not this," and "Do this"—if you are serious about curing a disease. Similarly, if you want to cure your this material disease—material disease means birth, death, old age and disease—then you have to accept some regulative life, some do's and some do not's. Just like we are prescribing, very simple, these students, that "You chant sixteen rounds; *that's minimum—at least sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa." It is not difficult. And you do not, don't have illicit sex life, don't have intoxication, don't have meat*-eating, don't do gambling. So these are the five regulative . . . four regulative principles, and chant. Very simple. Anyone can do it. So these boys and girls, they are Europeans, Americans; from their birth they are habituated to these habits. But they have stopped, and they are not unhappy. So our program is only very simple, but improvement is very quick and evident—that you can see. What do you think, Mr. Patel? The improvement, the world is astonished. The Americans are asking them, "Are you Americans?" They could not imagine. Even the government, they are asking, "How you have stopped intoxication? We are spending so much money for stopping intoxication, LSD." But they have given up. As soon as they come to be initiated, entering. I say: "Stop this," immediately they stop. How they can stop? Guest: But there are people who don't take the intoxicants, neither do they smoke, neither do they do all sort of bad things, but still they follow . . . (indistinct) . . . no sex—that they follow. Where do those people stand? Prabhupāda: You see, I said there are some do not's and several do's—so they are following both. The do's they are also following. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . That will give you protection. Simply negating will not do. Just like a child, if you say: "Don't play," now, he can stop for some time, but if you don't give him some engagement and education then he will create mischief. Similarly, simply do not's will not help. You have to accept do's also, then your life will be successful. They have accepted more do not's than the do's. So anyone who takes up this training and then he becomes purified, and as soon as he becomes purified he will successfully goes back to home, back to Godhead. You have to change your body, that's a fact, or you have to die. So after death we have got a program: home, very nice home. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): one does not come back to take birth in this material world. Then where does he go? As the atheist philosopher says, that after the destruction of this body, is everything finished? No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti : "He comes to Me." Guest: Is it that all material things has got a beginning and an end, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Now, it means our world is material, so . . . finish Prabhupāda: Yes, this world will all finish. Guest: Everything will eventually end. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And where shall we be, all the living creatures, then? Prabhupāda: At that time? Guest: The material world is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikām (BG 9.7). Just like you are, when you are dead, your body is dead, then where do you live? You get another body. But not that immediately you get another body. Guest: Immediately. Prabhupāda: No, no. After end of this body you get another body. Guest: After how long? Prabhupāda: Therefore I said after how long, how? So the intermediate period you live somewhere—that you live in the womb of your mother, next body. Death means seven months, dreaming. That is death. Guest: Ah. I have proof that there is a country called America already, and I have proof there is place known as India, because some patients have gone to India and back here. So they are mean the truth, to us, India. Americans have gone to America and Britain—to Britain, the United Kingdom—and they have already come back here to confirm to us that there is such a place called . . . (indistinct) . . . has it ever been proved by any people . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many, many times. Guest: . . . that people are given new bodies and they come to the world and live? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. Therefore you accept the statement of the authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter in Bhagavad*-gītā , you'll see, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This system of yoga , first of all I explained to the sun-god." *So Arjuna inquired that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are born with me, You are contemporary, of the same age. How can I believe that You instructed this yoga system to the sun*-god that lives in the some millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered that "Both you and Me had many births, many births, but you have forgotten—I remember." That is the difference between God and ordinary humans. We may forget, but God does not forget, or very highly elevated devotees of God, they also do not forget. So we get information from such persons: God, Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva, Asita—many. There are many. We get information from them. Just like you get any information. Suppose people are going to the moon planet. You read in the papers, "The American scientists, they have gone to the moon planet." So you believe it. Is it not? But you did not go there personally; how do you believe it? Guest: Because they have been there and they can tell. Prabhupāda: Therefore. Kṛṣṇa is personally telling, Nārada is personally telling. Where have got experience. Guest: Kṛṣṇa died in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . nobody dies. You do not die, I do not die, Kṛṣṇa do not die—nobody dies. But you don't remember; Kṛṣṇa remembers. That's all. Guest: He died, and then He was born again. Prabhupāda: Nobody dies. Why do you say "die"? I say nobody dies. Guest: What happens? Prabhupāda: Change body. Nobody dies. First of all try to understand this. Just like if you change your this coat. Does it mean that you die? You may appear next day with another coat. You do not die. Just like in this life you had a body of childhood body, you had the body like a boy, you had a body like a . . . so you remember all these things, but "Yes, I had this body." So that body has gone, but you are still there. Guest: How many times does one die? How many times does one . . .? Prabhupāda: Unless he goes back to . . . unless he becomes liberated, goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has to die, take birth, repeatedly. Guest: So you can go . . . do you know the Christians? Prabhupāda: Don't bring in Christian and Hindu. Talk of philosophy. We are talking of philosophy. Guest: No, you see, it is a fact that I am dragging up, when I say: "Do you know them?" I know that you've heard of them, even if you have never associated with them. But they say that there is a place called the paradise. I never seen the place, nobody has ever seen the place. Prabhupāda: So how do they say? Guest: They say the world will end. Prabhupāda: Therefore how do they say? Guest: Unless people will be taken somewhere else. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How do they say? How . . .? You believe them? Guest: They say it. Prabhupāda: But they say, but you believe them? Guest: Well, that was the only form of worshiping that we had. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If it is stated in Christian religion like that, where do they take the authority for such statement? Guest: Where do they get . . .? Prabhupāda: Just like, the same instance, just like you believe that the Americans or the Russians went to this moon planet. So how do you believe it? Guest: I believe because somebody went there and back. Prabhupāda: That somebody you have not met. That is a scientist, it is stated in the paper. That means by the statement of the paper you believe it, because you take the paper as authority. Is it not? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: You did not go, but you read in the paper, and you take the authority of the paper; therefore you believe it. Guest: I believe through the paper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, we believe from the *Vedas* . Guest: Now we also believe in this through the paper. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You believe through the papers; we believe through the Vedic knowledge. Devotee: *Vedas* . Brahmānanda: Scripture Devotee: Veda . Guest: Faith. Devotee: No, no. Veda . Prabhupāda: Veda , the original book of knowledge. Veda means the original book of knowledge. *Mr. Patel: Have you seen this Vedic House? Vedic House, next to Barclays Bank? There is a Vedic House, v-e-d-i-c, Vedic House. It is from that word, you know, v-e-d*-a . Veda means knowledge. Guest: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: There is authoritative Vedas that is coming, time immemorial, and the system of Vedic civilization is that if it is stated in the Vedas , we accept it. That is truth. Śruti*-pramāṇa . It is called śruti . Vedas another name is śruti . Śruti . So śruti-pramāṇa . Whenever we require any evidence, if it is stated in the Vedas . . . that example I have given several times, those who are followers of Vedas , just like cow dung. Cow dung. You understand cow dung? Guest: Cow dan? Prabhupāda: Cow dung! Devotee: (translates) Guest: Cow dung. Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the stool of an animal. In the *Vedas* you will find that if you touch the stool of an animal, you become impure. Immediately you should wash. The Hindus, the Vedic followers, they do it—as soon as they touch even his own stool, goes to the toilet. And because the stool is already there in the belly, in the abdomen, but as soon as it comes out I become impure. That is Vedic system. You cannot argue. The stool is already there in the abdomen, and if it has come out, so how I become impure? But *Vedas* say: "Yes, you become impure. You immediately take your bath and wash your cloth." So the Vedic Indians, they are following. Similarly, again the Veda says that if you touch the stool of the cow you become pure. Now you can argue, "How is that? Once you said that if you touch the stool of an animal—human being is also animal—you become impure. Then how you say that cow dung is pure? It is speculative contradiction." But all Hindus, they take cow dung as pure. In the morning they'll bring cow dung and put with water and smear all over the houses, and you will find practically it starts . . . mopping with cow dung is there, even if it is very filthy place, immediately you will find refreshing. Immediately. In the village they haven't got big houses like this. They have got, I mean to say, huts, but the cleanliness is with cow dung. Is it not? Devotee: True, yes. Prabhupāda: So this cow dung is the stool of an animal. You can argue that "When I touch my own stool I become impure, now you say the stool of an animal, cow, that is pure?" That's a fact. We can see practically. Therefore if you want to make research, you can go on, but if you take directly knowledge from *Vedas* you save time. You get the thing immediately. That is Vedic knowledge. Therefore the Vedic civilization is that whatever I say, if it is confirmed by the Vedic statement, then my word is perfect. I don't require to make research. That is the Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda , Danur Veda , Yajur Veda , so many *Vedas* . *Vedas* mean knowledge, perfect knowledge. Therefore Vedic followers. What is that? Vedic House? *Mr. Patel: It's the property of Ārya*-samāj . Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the word is Vedic. So Vedic knowledge is perfect. But unfortunately we interpret Vedic knowledge. That is nonsense. If we interpret, then what is the authority of *Vedas* ? If you want to take Vedic version by checking with your imperfect knowledge or senses, then that Vedic knowledge becomes subservient to your test. That is nonsense. Therefore we, we do not change a single word. We take it as it is. That is accepted. The same example: *Vedas* says the cow dung is pure—we take it immediately, without any argument. We don't argue. What is the use of argument? It is confirmed. Vedic knowledge is perfect, whatever knowledge is given there, that is perfect, so why shall I argue? If I argue, then where is the perfection? If Vedic knowledge is depending on my test, then where is the authority? I am an imperfect person, and if *Vedas* have to be accepted by my imperfect test, then what is the authority of *Vedas* ? Guest: But then, Swāmījī, those who are ignorant, to them the question should be raised. *Prabhupāda: The ignorant . . . Veda is for the ignorant. Because we are ignorant, therefore we have to take shelter of the Vedic knowledge. That is Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you go to school, you take the assistance of a teacher and become educated. Similarly, you have to take the knowledge, Vedic knowledge, from the real person who has learned Vedas by the disciplic succession. That is the way. You cannot interpret. Just like we are preaching. What we are preaching? The same way, the Vedic knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says— Bhagavad*-gītā is Vedic knowledge—so Kṛṣṇa says: So what is our business? Our business is to speak the same thing. We are teaching, or propagating, asking people that, "You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." *So we have no difficulty. But because we are speaking the same truth as it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it has become successful. That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I have not manufactured anything. What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Everyone knows Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I am preaching them properly, it has became success. Just see. Within four and five years it has spread all over the world. So only technique is that I am not adulterating it. That is my credit. That's all. And what is that credit? It is very easy. Kṛṣṇa says: I say to my disciples, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Just surrender, and your life is successful," and they are doing that. There is nothing difficult, simply you have to take as it is. That is the authority of *Vedas* . As soon as you interpret, you become rascal, immediately. Then there is no effect. *Just like if a doctor says: "Take this medicine in such*-and-such dose," and if you say: "No, let me add something," it will not be effective. The same way, just like I have said, you can take salt in such proportion. You cannot take more, you cannot take less. This is Vedic knowledge. You cannot interpret a single word. You have to take it as it is; then it will be effective. And it is practically being done. I am very careful not to adulterate, and that it is effective. *They are also following my instruction as it is in the Vedas . Kṛṣṇa says, yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So these four pillars of pāpaṁ , sinful life, I say: "Don't do this," then they are following. I say: "Chant", the Veda says: I say: "Oh, you must chant. It is the injunction." That is the relationship between the spiritual master, ācārya , and the disciple. Ācārya must know what is there in the Vedic śāstra , and he personally accept it and teach to his disciples. If that is done, the work is done. So if the ācārya is adulterated, if the student is adulterated, then it will not take place. So strictly, no other version—then you will find it effective, immediately. Just like a woman and man, sexual intercourse. If the man is powerful, he has got real strength, there is pregnancy. And if the woman is not . . . (indistinct) . . . there is pregnancy. Similarly, if the student and the master is pure and his instruction is pure, then there will be effect. There is no jugglery or magic. They say: "Swāmījī, you have done magic," but I have not done anything magic. My magic is that I am presenting things as it is, and they are being accepted as it is, and it is being effective. There is no secret; it is open secret. Simply you have to take strictly, according to the principles. Then it will be effective. Guest: And therefore there is no question about the result? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: And therefore there will be no question . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Vedic knowledge. In Āyurveda , Āyurveda also, that I have . . . (indistinct) . . . studied, the system is that their basic principle of treatment is three elements: kapha , pitta , vāyu . The . . . within this body, these things are working. When they are working in parallel line, in order, there is no disease; there cannot be any disease—neutral state. *As soon as kapha , pitta , vāyu becomes increased, one's balance, then there are diseases. So that can be understood, that their only technique is to study this pulse*-beating. Therefore symptoms. If the pulse is beating like this, then it is due to increase of kapha; if the pulse is beating like this . . . that is their science. *So even in these days if you go to an experienced Āyurvedic physician, he will take half an hour at least to study how your pulse is beating. Nari*-jña it is called. And immediately he gives the pulse-beating to a formula. The formula: if the pulse is beating like this, then this is the disease, and this is the symptom. So immediately, according to that formula, he asks, "Do you get the symptom?" "Yes." "Do you get this? You do not like this?" "Yes." That is kapha . And immediately medicine is ready. For this symptom, this medicine give him. That is Āyurvedic system. *So in Āyurvedic system there is no experiment, there is no dissection, you see? There is no irregularities or blind . . . (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) . . . experiment. Simply external. There is no big studies. And here, how the matter is simplified—simply you try to study the pulse*-beating, and the symptoms are stated in this . . . similarly, you are doing this. *But we understand from the Vedic knowledge that anyone who is sinfully attracted, he cannot have any God*-realization. So how do you make him . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda says, striyaḥ sūnā pāna dyūta yatrā pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Sinful life means these four things: illicit sex-life, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā . *These four kinds of sinful life is the pillars of all sinful life, and if you make a study that all sinful activities are going on on these four pillars: illicit sex life, gambling, meat*-eating and intoxication. When you become too much intoxicated, habituated to intoxicants, you don't, I mean to say, fear to become a thief, steal others' property. More and more you become implicated. The beginning is these things. So if you avoid these, then your sinful life is stopped, and as soon as your sinful life is stopped, you can realize God, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So we have got very simple formula in the Vedic knowledge. People should simply agree to accept this; then their life is successful. That's all. But they do not agree, what can I do? So our business is . . . Guest: The difficulty . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: They recall their difficulty. Prabhupāda: There is nothing difficult. Guest: Those who are . . . *Prabhupāda: Then what they have got, this birth by . . . (indistinct) . . . you are thinking "difficult", what is difficult? But giving up meat*-eating, what is the difficulty? Guest: Some of the rules are rather difficult, you know. *Prabhupāda: It is thinking. Because that is māyā . You are thinking difficult. It is not at all difficult. How these boys, they gave up? Illicit sex*-life was their life, in Europe and America, from the very childhood. How they are giving up? Guest: Something for them, you know, the hidden pleasures, in taking . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you like you can give it up. That's possible. And that giving up, that status you can maintain if you do the do's. Chant—that will protect you. Both things. So the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . (aside) Aiye . . . is very simple, very, very simple, and there is no difficulty at all. Simply one must agree. (aside) Aiye . Guest: It is true. But to start with . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the process, sat*-saṅga . Therefore we are opening centers. You come to our association, like these boys. First of all they are not asked that, "You have to do this." No. If I ask, how they will do? No. If they come, that is also very nice process. If you simply come—you don't do this, simply go on hearing—you will be God conscious. But you do not come, you see? People are not coming. That means they have no meaning left. Guest: No, they don't want to do away with their old . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then if you need . . . if you don't want to do something, that is another thing. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: Out of many thousands and millions of people, one becomes interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not an ordinary thing. It is difficult, very difficult, but one intelligent person, although he knows it is very difficult: "Why not try?" And that is intelligence. What is the difficulty? Are they starving because they are not eating meat? We are giving them better food— kachorī , lucī , sandeśa , sweet balls, samosā and khicuṛi (devotees laugh)—anyone who comes, "Oh, it is very nice!" What is the loss there? Now here is a brahmacārī , here is a gṛhastha , here is a sannyāsa . According to suitability you can remain a brahmacārī or you can become a sannyāsa or you remain a gṛhastha . There is no such that "You have to become a sannyāsī ." No. You remain a gṛhastha , but don't spoil your life. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , you follow the rules and regulations of gṛhastha life, you become perfect. So for everyone there is chance, and it is not that . . . because according to Vedic system there are four castes: brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and lower than the śūdras , pañcama . So it is not prohibited for anyone. I mean anyone can take—the brāhmin can take, the śūdra can take, the others who are less than śūdra , they can take. So the door is open for everyone. The matter is very simple. Simply you have to take it and become successful in your life. And the knowledge is perfect, from the *Vedas* , now it is up to you. You take it or don't take it, that is your business. So I am requesting you, you remain interested; instead of arguing continually, you please take to this business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda . Is that very difficult? Guest: Not necessarily. One can try. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: We are inviting come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dance and take prasādam . That is also difficult, then what can be done? They are chanting, dancing—that's a pleasure—and after that, taking prasādam , that is another pleasure. That is also difficult, then what can be done? Guest: That's why there is no suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then you must suffer. That is a fact. If there is dancing in the ball*-dance hall, thousands of people will go. But this dancing, nobody will come. That is māyā . Māyā dictates, "Oh, why you are going there? There is ball dance. Dance there." So we have to little protect ourselves from the dictation of māyā . That will also give strength. Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 4.11): if you become a little strong and determined, "No, no, I shall not go to the ball dance, I shall go to the Kṛṣṇa conscious dance," then your life is successful. That much determination you must have. That is up to you. And we are distributing this knowledge free. Such topmost knowledge, we are distributing free, don't charge. What is the loss? Suppose I ask you: "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds," it is very easy. So if you chant sixteen rounds Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , what is your loss? But if there is gain, why don't you take it? There is a story that an old woman was dying, and her son said: "Mother, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So when they were repeating, "Mother, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so she becomes disgusted, "Why? I cannot say so many words." "I cannot say so many words . . ." Guest: That she is already saying. Prabhupāda: . . . but not "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You see? There are four words only, Hare, Kṛṣṇa; two words. "Oh, I cannot say all in all." This is our position. We can waste our time in so many ways, but if I say to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, you'll disagree: "Oh, I cannot do it." This is our misfortune. So we have to become a little strong: "Yes, I must. I must." Then . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your loss? So that is our requirement, that: Very simple method. They will try to press the nose, to make the head down and make yoga , and he becomes God within six months—these cheating, these rascals are very . . . (indistinct) . . . and simple thing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, they will not accept. What can be done? And the result is there. They are Americans; *what they want? That is a country of dollars. Earn ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty*-five dollars—so that is nothing in this country. Daily they can spend, even in one hour, they are so rich. Anyone can earn thousands of rupees in our Indian exchange. *Just like their lowest guarantee, four hundred dollars. So four hundred dollars in Indian exchange, four thousand rupees. So one who is making four thousand rupees per month, he is a rich man. And in America that is the lowest, that is the lowest, for the poorest man. And they are earning fifty thousand, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand. So money is nothing. *So they have got enough money, they have got enough women, they have got enough wine, enough slaughterhouse—but they are disgusted. Now the young boys and girls, they have become hippies, frustration. They think that there is no life. So if we imitate only on these four principles—enough woman, enough intoxication, enough meat*-eating, enough gambling—you pay, because you have already paid. It is a fact. Now it has become a problem; so many young men, they have become hippies, they are not working at all. You see? The government, without finding any other jobs, they have created this Vietnam—they are killing the boys. That's all. The Vietnam show is for killing these poor boys, that's all. They call draft, "Come on you go to war." But, they cannot check; they have no means. And here is the means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Therefore they are taking. So you are growing nation. If you grow like the Americans and Europeans you will never be happy. You take this culture, you will be happy. That is the open secret. Nobody has become happy with this material advancement. So we do not check material advancement, but we simply want to change the consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like Arjuna, he was not stopped fighting. That is material. But his consciousness was changed. We wanted that. We do in that way. You do material advancement, but change your consciousness. That is our movement. Do not stop. Arjuna . . . Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna, "Oh, you take sannyāsa and go to the Himalaya and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." No. That is not our program. You do. You are Professor. You remain engaged in your occupational duties but be Kṛṣṇa conscious, sve karmaṇa , by your duty. Then you will get saṁsiddhiṁ , the highest perfection. He never said that "You stop your business, stop your profession, and go to Himalaya." No. He simply says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then all the kind . . . (indistinct) . . . picture, where it was? Śyāmasundara: New Yorker Magazine ? Prabhupāda: Somewhere else. One old gentleman and old lady, the old lady requesting her husband: "Chant, chant, chant," and the old man is saying, "Can't, can't, can't." (laughter) This is the position. We are simply asking people, "Chant, chant, chant," and they are replying, "Can't, can't, can't." This is the rascaldom. If you simply say: "Yes, yes, yes," then everything, the whole thing will be saved. But they will not take it. They will say: "Can't, can't, can't." Guest: Swāmījī, what sort of power is in chanting the name, because . . . Prabhupāda: We associate with God. Guest: . . . but is it not that if you follow these actions, that is much more strong. Prabhupāda: What is that action? You are fools, rascals—what is your action? Now who is stronger? What is your action? What is the value of your action? Just like these children: what is the value of their action? They are simply to be protected from doing mischievous activities. If you are in knowledge . . . if you do not know the value of your life, what is the value of your activities? Guest: There could be majority, the mass of people who might be chanting the name, but if they don't know what they are chanting for, then . . . Prabhupāda: That they will know everything. They are simply chanting— sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Do you mean to say they are fools because they are chanting? Guest: No, but they are educated; they know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Educated or not educated, you may not . . . even one is not educated, he has no other business. That is the effect. *Vedas* says. Then you have to go to the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3): if you know the Supreme Absolute Truth, then everything becomes revealed to you. We are challenging so many philosophers, so many scientists. Does it mean that I was a student of science? No. But we can challenge, because the knowledge is revealed. Just like I told . . . (indistinct) . . . some reporter came to me, asked me: "Swāmījī, what is your opinion about this moon planet going?" I said, "It is simply waste of time and nonsense." I asked them, "Shall I speak plain, or shall I flatter you?" They said, "No, we speak plain." I said: "It is simply a waste of time and nonsense." So I'm not a scientist; *how could I say? How could I say? On the Vedic knowledge. Vedic version is, and Bhagavad*-gītā you will see: The moon planet is considered one of the planets of the demigods, so you have to become a devotee of that demigod or cultivate that knowledge. You hear, then you will get the body to be transferred in that planet. You cannot go in this body. Now how you can refute this argument? We get knowledge that unless they have trained themselves how to go to the moon planet, they cannot go. We take it. So therefore how much they may . . . how hard they may try to go there, they cannot go. How can I say? On the Vedic strength. We are not trained up. Just like one can see, suppose one African is trying to go to India or, say, UK. So if I see that he has not passport, he has not got passport and visa, then I can immediately, "No, you cannot go." There is no necessity of knowledge how I say. I say: "Because he has no passport and visa, he cannot go." Similarly, from the Vedic knowledge we understand unless one becomes a devotee of that particular type of demigod, he cannot go. Therefore we can say: "You cannot go." However they may try with this machine, that is not possible. This is perfect knowledge. I am not a scientist; I am not criticizing the scientific process. But because I know that the Veda says that they cannot go, I say: "You cannot go." *Now Veda says they cannot go, now we challenge. And so let the scientist come and prove. That is Vedic knowledge. Let them go. Now they are silent. By making so much false propaganda, now they are silent. They cannot go in this way, machine. You cannot go to America by force, by your machine. You have to take the visa, immigration visa. So how can you go to the moon planet? We get from the Vedic knowledge that in moon planet one gets ten thousand of years' life. And that planet is very cold. They drink soma*-rasa . They . . . all the Vedic scriptures. So on the Vedic scriptural strength we can challenge anyone. Therefore the Vedic knowledge says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati : if you simply understand the Absolute Truth, then you become . . . you know everything. Guest: Do you think that they have ever been to the moon now? Prabhupāda: Never! I challenge them. This is simply all propaganda. If they had been, then what they have gained? Why they do not go and make some business there? Guest: At the moment . . . Prabhupāda: They have brought some rocks and sand, that's all. Why they say there is no life? If the planet is there, we find that in experience that even within the earth there is living entity, within the water there is living entity, in the air there is living entity. And what moon planet has done there is no living entity? What is your answer? Although they have got some sands and rocks, the sands and rocks are there, and there is no living entity? How it is possible? By experience we see here, sands and rocks are there, but there are living entities; and there you have got sands and rocks but there is no living entities. First of all answer this challenge. And we get information from Vedic literature that there are demigods, they are very highly elevated, intellectual persons, they live for ten thousands of years. And these people say there is no life. Therefore we don't believe it. First of all show within your experience. Go anywhere—even in the desert there is living entity. (aside) What you are thinking? Devotee: I think that we should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . for distribution. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: For me go to the . . . (indistinct) . . . so there are many reasons, you see. If you study, if you accept the Vedic conclusion, you save so much time, so much time, and you get the right information. And that is perfection. So chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means associating with God directly. *So we are associating with God, then we become purified. Just like if you associate with fire you become warm, gradually, this is the example. You put one iron rod in the fire, it is warmer and warmer and warmer, and then it is red*-hot, and when it is red-hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch that iron rod anywhere, it will burn. Similarly, if you associate with God, then you become godly, you become purified. And the matter is so simple. The Vedic śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer . . . three times stating, "It is this, it is this, it is this." If you follow the Vedic instruction you will get success, without arguing. And what is the difficulty there? Guest: There's no difficulty. Prabhupāda: Then why there is argument? Why not try it? Such a simple method that even a child can do. If this child is asked: "You chant," she will chant directly. Such a yoga system that can be accepted by child even. And the Vedic knowledge says: "There is no other way, no other way, no other way." Why not take it? Why this obstinacy? That is our misfortune. Our program is very simple: come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dance with us. Even if you don't dance, take little prasādam , go away. Why there is so much objection to this? We don't ask anything, that "You pay here fifty dollars, and press your nose and make your hand and do that, so many." So what is the difficulty? We don't charge anything. Just try the method . . . (indistinct) . . . boli . Why there is objection? Just so you answer this, that why there is objection? This simple method, this sublime method, why there is objection? Guest: Can I tell you what I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Because there are so many institutions, there are so many sects, so many religious, I mean, erm . . . Prabhupāda: But here there is no religion, there is no sect. We call Indian, we call European, American, African, brahmin , kṣatriya , śūdra . At least here there is no sect. Why you are bringing "sects"? Guest: No, but at the moment . . . Prabhupāda: There may be so many rascals; that is another thing. Here there is no rascaldom. Here is taught that anyone, you are welcome. Where is the question of "sects" or "religion"? Guest: No, not over here, but I am telling . . . Prabhupāda: Don't bring in so many things. But why you are . . . Guest: Unless they are convinced or unless they see why . . . Prabhupāda: What are the convictions? What is the conviction? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the necessity of convictions? Guest: No, but there might be a ṛṣi . . . (indistinct) . . . there might be so many people telling them . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is misfortune only, that's all. Guest: They'll know the difference how the real faith, the real . . . Prabhupāda: The difference is already there, but they are rascals; *they do not know. It is stated very clear in the Vedic knowledge, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that: *Those who worship other demigods, they are rascals, hṛta*-jñānāḥ . That is clearly stated. So if you want to remain rascal, how I can be faulted? Hṛta-jñānāḥ . Because what does it mean, hṛta-jñānāḥ ? You know the Sanskrit? Guest: Little bit *Prabhupāda: Yes, hṛta*-jñānāḥ means one who has lost his intelligence. That means he's a rascal. This is clearly stated: *Even if you get result, results from the demigods, it is antava : it will be finished. It will be finished. Tad bhavaty al . . . therefore people who are alpa*-medhasām , less intelligent, they are satisfied with some temporary purpose, that's all. Now there is a . . . it is going on, Navaratri, Durgā. That's all right. Durgā will pay, dhanaṁ dehi vimukti bharyam dehi yaśo dehi rūpaṁ. All right, Goddess Durgā gives you. But how long you will enjoy this? *As soon as your body is finished, your beautiful wife, your money, your friend, everything's finished. Therefore, alpa*-medhasām : less intelligent. Their brain substance is very small, therefore they are after these things. The problem is eternal life. These are all clearly stated. But you don't accept the Vedas . That is the difficulty. Guest: Because they have not been preached in the true sense. Prabhupāda: If you want to remain here preaching, they are not coming; they are accepting. Guest: They will come. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. We have come out to preach. Guest: People will come . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . once they know. Because now they have become, what you call, they have reached to the saturated point. They have saturated. So many beggars . . . *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata*-dharma is the beginning. In the Bhāgavata it is stated, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). You read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Anything is that is going on in the name of religion, but it is simply cheating, that is thrown out. That also you cannot do properly at the present moment. Deva-pūjā , pūjayā , yajña , described in the śāstras , you cannot do. That is also simply humbug. There are so many rules and regulations for performing yajña; you cannot . . . therefore it is said: You cannot do it properly. Suppose you perform yajña . So where is the pure ghee , and so many tons? So what is the use of putting three . . . (indistinct) . . . of ghee and performing yajña ? People are so . . . because they want to be cheated, and they are cheated by the cheaters. That is the position. They want to be cheated. What can be done? If the cheaters see there is a very good market of being cheated, they will come: "Yes, I am God. I will make you God," and this and that. So these things should be stopped, and it should be taken: Any . . . (indistinct) . . . simple thing. (break) (indistinct Hindi) *Whatever your religion is, that's all right. By performing it very nicely, if you do not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, it is simply waste of time. Yes. Yes. So if you go, kindly help us. (break) . . . interpretation, so many ways, yet they are speaking nonsense. And therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Somebody says it is yogic bhakar , somebody it is jñānic bhakar , this bhakar , that bhakar . Guest: And then they become difficult to follow which one to follow, and so they become so much confused. So they are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. People, people should know that . . . they should be little intelligent. Therefore without being intelligent you cannot make progress. Ignorance is the cause of all difficulties. So Bhagavad*-gītā , if you have read Bhagavad-gītā , it is said there that Bhagavad-gītā is being preached to Arjuna, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I am teaching this Bhagavad-gītā again. *Although I taught this philosophy to the sun*-god so many millions of years ago, again I am teaching the same to you." "Why? To me? There are so many others." He says: "No," bhakto 'si , "because you are My devotee." Now how one can understand Bhagavad-gītā who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: What right you have got? He means to preach this philosophy to the devotees. How the non*-devotees, they can understand? They do not understand Bhagavad-gītā , still they write commentary. Suppose I am a preacher of spiritual subject matter, and Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a goldsmith. So if I write on a book on goldsmith, what is the value of this book? Is there any value? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for devotee. Why the other rascals write on commentation? Simply waste their time and mislead others. This is going on. Guest: The same thing has happened here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere it is happening, the whole world over. We are touring all over the world, simply people are being cheated. And they want to be cheated. Guest: And now if you bring truth in front of them, still they will say that . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . what can be done? (break) Guest: . . . thinking that people will come here, we might have to go to them, you know, expecting them here. Prabhupāda: Well, we can do any way . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: This kīrtana will go on nicely. So only you have got only mṛdaṅga ? Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think more are coming from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Means? (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śyāmasundara called me. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. At least four khols you have to have. Four khols and sixteen men, that is party. Yes. And one leading singer and one dancer. That makes complete party. Twenty, twenty*-two men. So where is Śyāmasundara? Devotee: I didn't find him. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: I didn't find him anywhere. Prabhupāda: He is not here? Lady devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Resting? He went to bed very late last night? Hmm. Lady devotee: He just wanted to finish that . . . (indistinct) . . . he was trying to finish the Māyāpur thing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that's all right.Then he may not come. So you can speak some discussion from our books? You can see, he is very great speaker, Viṣala prabhu. Viṣala: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣala: I cannot speak. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. *Viṣala: I've been reading the Brahma*-saṁhitā , and uh, by His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, and he mentions that to receive the mercy of . . . Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one has to be free of all mundane desires, and also he has to receive the grace of God at the same time. So it's all . . . it's like the son, he mentions . . . He doesn't know how wealthy his father is, but by the grace of his father, he says: "My dear son, I have a lot of money and I . . . you will be in my will, and you will have this all, and I will give you all these instructions." So similarly, by finally, gradually becoming free of all mundane desires and completely being influenced by the cit potency, by the superior cognitive energy of Lord Kṛṣṇa, one will receive the mercy of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. But the most important thing is to receive the mercy of the spiritual master, because only by the guru's mercy can one be blessed by God. So that means we have to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Next? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's been reading your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam every morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've been reading Śrīla . . . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes, read. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I get a copy of that? Prabhupāda: So here is a microphone. You did not know? Śrīmatī has brought two microphones. Śyāmasundara: Oh, Uher's? Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. Gurudas: There's tapes also. Devotee (2): Wonderful. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: Tapes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Devotee (2): See if it works? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whenever somebody comes from there, something must be brought, because these things are not available. (break) . . . Indian, you cannot excel in mechanical knowledge than the Europeans, American. That is not possible. We will always remain hundred years back. Everyone has got some special talent given by God. We should cooperate. That's it. Just like the hand can work in this way. We cannot walk with hands. That is the business of the hand. Similarly, I cannot cut the papers with leg. So all living entities are endowed with special . . . we should cooperate. The hand and leg should cooperate for maintaining the whole body. Similarly, everyone should use his talent for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Not compete with one another. That is mistake. No (laughs). Śyāmasundara: (unwrapping package) It's not the microphone. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I don't think it's the microphone. (break) So should we send these . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . I wrote. They never reply. Śyāmasundara: It's such a big company, they . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know what kind of big company, and their publication we do not get in India. Why? . . . (indistinct) . . . publication, several . . . (indistinct) . . . we cannot get in Macmillan Company. Sometimes somebody inquires, they reply that, "We have not published this book." Just see. Yes. They have no information. Lady devotee: We can show that one copy of that letter, and what can they do to us? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee: If they try to stop us from printing, we can show them the copy of that letter that says they do not publish, and then what can they do? We have a copy of . . . Prabhupāda: I think we can publish all books here, because the agreement is made in USA. It has nothing to do within India. Indian law is different. Śyāmasundara: I think it's a world copyright, or else we could publish in Japan also. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I think this is a world copyright, or else we would be able to publish in Japan, in . . . Prabhupāda: So Japan is out of world? Śyāmasundara: It's out of US. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: It's out of the USA. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Like India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: I think their copyright . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Śyāmasundara: . . . is binding around the world. Prabhupāda: If they want to publish, let them publish. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I offered them that, "We are going to publish." So there was no reply. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: They did not comment and . . . Śyāmasundara: You already offered. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we go chant our rounds now? Prabhupāda: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) (break) Prabhupada: (indistinct Hindi) . . . bhai ji bhi aye the . . . (indistinct) . . . (brother had also come . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian Guest: Uski behen bhi ayi thi Los Angeles se, humare bade bhai hai na apse Calcutta me mile the . . . (break) . . . to ab apki agya ho (break) (His sister had also come from Los Angeles, my elder brother who met you in Calcutta . . . (break) . . . if your grace permits (break)) Prabhupada: (indistinct Hindi) . . . but one thing is that, all right, he can go as my relative, because as visitor if he goes, then he cannot be admitted in school. Lalaji: That's right. Prabhupāda: But if he goes as my unmarried grandson . . . Lalaji: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . then he can get. So that will be done. Ye tum pas kar lo, tumko le jayenge. (You pass this then I will take you.) So your sons are very good sons. I have got all blessings for them. Ab tum kab bhul ho gaya, humko malum nahi. (When did you become bad, I don't know.) Lalaji: Mai to apka ekmatra ladka hu, apka sabhi koi. (I am your only son, all your . . .) you have so many grandsons, but I am the one erratic son, bad son. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lalaji: Wo ap meri thodi si ek problem solve kar dijiye Prabhupāda (Please solve just one of my problems Prabhupāda,) then I will come. Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Lalaji: Yehi material problems hai thodi, ladkiyon ki shadi hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ap jante hai Hindu samaj. (These material problems like getting my daughters married . . . (indistinct) . . . you know how Hindu Community works.) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, hum to . . . (No, no, I . . .) I never told you that you give up your family life, but in family life you just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lalaji: Wo to mai karta hu Prabhupāda thoda bohot, mai karta hu. (That I do a little bit, Prabhupāda, I do.) Prabhupāda: Thoda bohot nahi, full. Ab tumhara ye pita hai na tum iske pita ho, bolo? (Not a little bit, it has to be done full (laughs). Is he your father or are you his father, tell?) Lalaji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yehi hai. Tumhara kya ray hai? Ye tumhara pitaji ye hi pita hai ki tumhara pitaji inka pita hai? (What is your opinion? Is he your father or are you his father, tell?) There, there was a similar case in Lord Caitanya's time. The son became first a great devotee. So when the father came, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then . . . (indistinct) . . . then the father said, "No. He is my father." (laughs). To kya subject matter hai tumhara, BMA? (So what subject matter are you studying, BMA?) Lalajis Son: BMA, general arts . . . (indistinct) . . . politics and economics, Hindi, English Prabhupāda: Political Economics and? Lalajis Son: Hindi aur English. (Hindi and English.) Prabhupāda: Hindi aur . . . (Hindi and . . .) Lalajis Son: Che subjects hai. (Six subjects are there.) Prabhupāda: That's nice. So their work is proposed to . . . Lalaji: I think he should go there to study something, earn some money. That's all. Ap kahe to mai bhi chala jata hu. (If you say then I can also go.) Prabhupāda: Huh? *Lalaji: Ap kahe to, apki agya ho to Nandini ko prasad*-vasad banane ke liye waha . . . (indistinct) . . . lekin jaise ki ap uchit samjhe. (If you say, if you permit it then I can also help Nandini with cooking the prasad . . . (indistinct) . . . but whatever you feel is right.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, nahi abhi . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, not now . . . (indistinct) . . .) Lalaji: Mujhe Bharat bhumi se bohot prem hai. (I love the land of India a lot.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: Mujhe Bharat bhumi se prem bohot hai. (I really love the land of India.) Prabhupāda: Congress man hai na. (You are a Congress Party member that is why.) Lalaji: (laughs) Ap jante hai jivika uparjana ke liye Congress me kam karta hu, ye to ap shuru se hi jante the. (You already know that I work for the Congress just to earn my living.) *Prabhupāda: To usme shastra me usko zyada credit nahi diya gaya. (So the scriptures haven't given much credit to this.) Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13). Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . Ye jo nationalism hai, ye bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . . (This nationalism, this bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . .) the conception of worshiping the land, bhauma . Bhauma means land, bhūmi . Ijya , ijya means worshipable. So one who thinks that bhauma , bhūmi , anything made of bhūmi , earth, worshipable . . . Lalaji: I don't call it worshipable, Prabhupāda, but I have more . . . (indistinct) . . . with this land, because . . . Prabhupāda: Kitna land parivartan hua ye bhi to malum hona chahiye. Aj ye dus pachas baras idhar ye land me hai, iske pehle kaun land me tha iska koi pata bhi hai. (How many times the land has changed that should also be known. Now for the past ten or fifty years we are in this land but previous to that who knows we were in which land.) This is all illusion. This jananī janma bhūmi , huh? Devotee: I'm going for Gurudāsa. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā . This ijya*-dhīḥ , to worship the land of birth, but bhārata-bhūmi has special, it is pūjyā . . . Lalaji: That is my contention. Prabhupāda: Not, not as nationality. Lalaji: Not as nationality. There are more . . . Prabhupāda: But the land where Lord Kṛṣṇa came, Lord Rāma came, Lord Caitanya came, that land is certainly worshipable. That is another thing. In that way . . . Lalaji: In that way I was saying that more essential that we talk more of spiritualism here. I don't know whether they talk it in other countries or not. But we do here more of it. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Other countries all they have got high respect for India as spiritual land. But we are killing, our present government and so*-called leaders, killing that state. This is regrettable. They could hold this Bhārata-varṣa to the topmost summit all over the India if after Independence they would have organizedly preached Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedic culture. That is my mission. Now, whatever you may think of Bhārata-varṣa, outside, India is known as a poor . . . poorest country, because our ministers go there to beg. Lalaji: Prabhupāda, you have said that, really good, what I read this morning, that if . . . yudha . . . comes, we have to fight. Did you say to the people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They asked me, I said. Lalaji: That's what we want to hear now, you know. Prabhupāda: So these messages are very nice? (laughs) Devotee (3): What did you say to them, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What was the language? Lalaji: Language was when the war comes, Kṛṣṇa also said . . . asked Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: If it's a just war, you have to fight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: So that if it's a just war, we are going to fight. And the war is coming, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Why should we be afraid of fighting? Lalaji: We are not afraid of fighting. *Prabhupāda: We never . . . the Bhagavad*-gītā never says that when enemy attacks, you become nonviolent. No, no. Never says. Rather, Gandhi said that, "Yes, I shall . . ." Somebody asked Gandhiji that "If in your presence your wife or your daughter is ravaged, what you will do?" That question was there, actually. But he said that, "I shall nonviolence upon . . ." Lalaji: No, no, no Prabhupāda. Then he said: "I'll hit him back." On that condition. He said: "If that comes all right, hit him back." Prabhupāda: He said that. Lalaji: He said: "If a duṣṭa does that to you, you hit him back." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our policy. Our ātatāyinaḥ , the śastra , ātatāyinaḥ . Ātatāyinaḥ means a person who usurps my property. Lalaji: A tyrant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: A tyrant, ātatāyinaḥ . Prabhupāda: Aggressor, aggressor. Lalaji: Aggressor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: Ātatāyinaḥ . Prabhupāda: Who sets fire in my home and who wants to kill me, they're called ātatāyinaḥ . So they should be immediately killed. There's no question of nonviolent. And if the Vaiṣṇava is insulted, he should be killed immediately. That is also . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who advised that we should be humbler than the grass, but practically when Nityānanda Prabhu was insulted, He immediately wanted to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. So these messages . . . Lalaji: This has touched people. Prabhupāda: Hah, hah. *Lalaji: This is what they're worried about. Did you know last time there were these signals practicing black*-out and all that sort of thing? So now whole country is full of it. Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra's father, Daśaratha Maharaja, about him it is written, samūla vartham nava dhṛt ariṁśca. There are many qualification. Out of that, one qualification was samula avartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca. Enemy would come, then he will uproot the whole generation. Samula vartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca . Lalaji: After the festival, Prabhupāda, are you going to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am thinking of. I have not gone for many years. Lalaji: Your room is very well kept there. I have been to that place myself. Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalaji: We have seen that your room is kept well. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa is keeping? So I can go and live in my rooms. The difficulty is that whenever I go, at least another half*-a-dozen, one dozen will go. Lalaji: Naturally. Devotee: The entourage. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) So what shall I do? Therefore, otherwise I liked Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, but . . . Lalaji: We can find a place for them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: We can just go and arrange it if you allow us. Prabhupāda: Ah. Lalaji: If few days earlier we go while the festival is on, we can arrange for your place for you and for devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: . . . to stay. I can do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Lalaji: I'm going a couple of days earlier, anyway. Prabhupāda: All right. Kya nam tumhara? (What is your name?) Lalaji: Rohit. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: Rohit. Prabhupāda: Rohit, yes, I remember. Lalaji: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Rohit. Rohit was the son of . . . Lalaji: Hariścandra. Prabhupāda: Hariścandra, yes. And daughters? Lalaji: Daughters, they will be bringing with them this evening also, the two daughters. Prabhupāda: Oh. So how old they are? Lalaji: One is about seventeen. Prabhupāda: One I think came yesterday. Lalaji: Yesterday the two younger ones came. Of the two elder ones, we'll bring this evening. They are eighteen . . . seventeen, eighteen. Prabhupāda: So . . . Lalaji: One is studying to be . . . Prabhupāda: You are trying to find out some groom? Not yet. Lalaji: Not yet. I have not done anything. Prabhupāda: I think you can get them married if you find out good boy. Lalaji: Ap se ashirvad . . . (Your blessings . . .) Prabhupāda: Working. Lalaji: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Good health and working. Never mind rich or poor. Lalaji: No, no I am myself poor, why should I . . . (indistinct) . . . for a rich . . . Prabhupāda: You should see that he is good health and working. That's all. Not idle. So in your community I . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: This kīrtana will go on nicely. So only you have got only mṛdaṅga ? Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think more are coming from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Means? (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śyāmasundara called me. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. At least four khols you have to have. Four khols and sixteen men, that is party. Yes. And one leading singer and one dancer. That makes complete party. Twenty, twenty*-two men. So where is Śyāmasundara? Devotee: I didn't find him. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: I didn't find him anywhere. Prabhupāda: He is not here? Lady devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Resting? He went to bed very late last night? Hmm. Lady devotee: He just wanted to finish that . . . (indistinct) . . . he was trying to finish the Māyāpur thing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that's all right.Then he may not come. So you can speak some discussion from our books? You can see, he is very great speaker, Viṣala prabhu. Viṣala: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣala: I cannot speak. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. *Viṣala: I've been reading the Brahma*-saṁhitā , and uh, by His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, and he mentions that to receive the mercy of . . . Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one has to be free of all mundane desires, and also he has to receive the grace of God at the same time. So it's all . . . it's like the son, he mentions . . . He doesn't know how wealthy his father is, but by the grace of his father, he says: "My dear son, I have a lot of money and I . . . you will be in my will, and you will have this all, and I will give you all these instructions." So similarly, by finally, gradually becoming free of all mundane desires and completely being influenced by the cit potency, by the superior cognitive energy of Lord Kṛṣṇa, one will receive the mercy of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. But the most important thing is to receive the mercy of the spiritual master, because only by the guru's mercy can one be blessed by God. So that means we have to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Next? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's been reading your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam every morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've been reading Śrīla . . . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes, read. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I get a copy of that? Prabhupāda: So here is a microphone. You did not know? Śrīmatī has brought two microphones. Śyāmasundara: Oh, Uher's? Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. Gurudas: There's tapes also. Devotee (2): Wonderful. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: Tapes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Devotee (2): See if it works? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whenever somebody comes from there, something must be brought, because these things are not available. (break) . . . Indian, you cannot excel in mechanical knowledge than the Europeans, American. That is not possible. We will always remain hundred years back. Everyone has got some special talent given by God. We should cooperate. That's it. Just like the hand can work in this way. We cannot walk with hands. That is the business of the hand. Similarly, I cannot cut the papers with leg. So all living entities are endowed with special . . . we should cooperate. The hand and leg should cooperate for maintaining the whole body. Similarly, everyone should use his talent for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Not compete with one another. That is mistake. No (laughs). Śyāmasundara: (unwrapping package) It's not the microphone. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I don't think it's the microphone. (break) So should we send these . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . I wrote. They never reply. Śyāmasundara: It's such a big company, they . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know what kind of big company, and their publication we do not get in India. Why? . . . (indistinct) . . . publication, several . . . (indistinct) . . . we cannot get in Macmillan Company. Sometimes somebody inquires, they reply that, "We have not published this book." Just see. Yes. They have no information. Lady devotee: We can show that one copy of that letter, and what can they do to us? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee: If they try to stop us from printing, we can show them the copy of that letter that says they do not publish, and then what can they do? We have a copy of . . . Prabhupāda: I think we can publish all books here, because the agreement is made in USA. It has nothing to do within India. Indian law is different. Śyāmasundara: I think it's a world copyright, or else we could publish in Japan also. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I think this is a world copyright, or else we would be able to publish in Japan, in . . . Prabhupāda: So Japan is out of world? Śyāmasundara: It's out of US. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: It's out of the USA. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Like India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: I think their copyright . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Śyāmasundara: . . . is binding around the world. Prabhupāda: If they want to publish, let them publish. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I offered them that, "We are going to publish." So there was no reply. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: They did not comment and . . . Śyāmasundara: You already offered. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we go chant our rounds now? Prabhupāda: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) (break) Prabhupada: (indistinct Hindi) . . . bhai ji bhi aye the . . . (indistinct) . . . (brother had also come . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian Guest: Uski behen bhi ayi thi Los Angeles se, humare bade bhai hai na apse Calcutta me mile the . . . (break) . . . to ab apki agya ho (break) (His sister had also come from Los Angeles, my elder brother who met you in Calcutta . . . (break) . . . if your grace permits (break)) Prabhupada: (indistinct Hindi) . . . but one thing is that, all right, he can go as my relative, because as visitor if he goes, then he cannot be admitted in school. Lalaji: That's right. Prabhupāda: But if he goes as my unmarried grandson . . . Lalaji: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . then he can get. So that will be done. Ye tum pas kar lo, tumko le jayenge. (You pass this then I will take you.) So your sons are very good sons. I have got all blessings for them. Ab tum kab bhul ho gaya, humko malum nahi. (When did you become bad, I don't know.) Lalaji: Mai to apka ekmatra ladka hu, apka sabhi koi. (I am your only son, all your . . .) you have so many grandsons, but I am the one erratic son, bad son. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lalaji: Wo ap meri thodi si ek problem solve kar dijiye Prabhupāda (Please solve just one of my problems Prabhupāda,) then I will come. Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Lalaji: Yehi material problems hai thodi, ladkiyon ki shadi hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ap jante hai Hindu samaj. (These material problems like getting my daughters married . . . (indistinct) . . . you know how Hindu Community works.) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, hum to . . . (No, no, I . . .) I never told you that you give up your family life, but in family life you just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lalaji: Wo to mai karta hu Prabhupāda thoda bohot, mai karta hu. (That I do a little bit, Prabhupāda, I do.) Prabhupāda: Thoda bohot nahi, full. Ab tumhara ye pita hai na tum iske pita ho, bolo? (Not a little bit, it has to be done full (laughs). Is he your father or are you his father, tell?) Lalaji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yehi hai. Tumhara kya ray hai? Ye tumhara pitaji ye hi pita hai ki tumhara pitaji inka pita hai? (What is your opinion? Is he your father or are you his father, tell?) There, there was a similar case in Lord Caitanya's time. The son became first a great devotee. So when the father came, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then . . . (indistinct) . . . then the father said, "No. He is my father." (laughs). To kya subject matter hai tumhara, BMA? (So what subject matter are you studying, BMA?) Lalajis Son: BMA, general arts . . . (indistinct) . . . politics and economics, Hindi, English Prabhupāda: Political Economics and? Lalajis Son: Hindi aur English. (Hindi and English.) Prabhupāda: Hindi aur . . . (Hindi and . . .) Lalajis Son: Che subjects hai. (Six subjects are there.) Prabhupāda: That's nice. So their work is proposed to . . . Lalaji: I think he should go there to study something, earn some money. That's all. Ap kahe to mai bhi chala jata hu. (If you say then I can also go.) Prabhupāda: Huh? *Lalaji: Ap kahe to, apki agya ho to Nandini ko prasad*-vasad banane ke liye waha . . . (indistinct) . . . lekin jaise ki ap uchit samjhe. (If you say, if you permit it then I can also help Nandini with cooking the prasad . . . (indistinct) . . . but whatever you feel is right.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, nahi abhi . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, not now . . . (indistinct) . . .) Lalaji: Mujhe Bharat bhumi se bohot prem hai. (I love the land of India a lot.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: Mujhe Bharat bhumi se prem bohot hai. (I really love the land of India.) Prabhupāda: Congress man hai na. (You are a Congress Party member that is why.) Lalaji: (laughs) Ap jante hai jivika uparjana ke liye Congress me kam karta hu, ye to ap shuru se hi jante the. (You already know that I work for the Congress just to earn my living.) *Prabhupāda: To usme shastra me usko zyada credit nahi diya gaya. (So the scriptures haven't given much credit to this.) Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13). Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . Ye jo nationalism hai, ye bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . . (This nationalism, this bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . .) the conception of worshiping the land, bhauma . Bhauma means land, bhūmi . Ijya , ijya means worshipable. So one who thinks that bhauma , bhūmi , anything made of bhūmi , earth, worshipable . . . Lalaji: I don't call it worshipable, Prabhupāda, but I have more . . . (indistinct) . . . with this land, because . . . Prabhupāda: Kitna land parivartan hua ye bhi to malum hona chahiye. Aj ye dus pachas baras idhar ye land me hai, iske pehle kaun land me tha iska koi pata bhi hai. (How many times the land has changed that should also be known. Now for the past ten or fifty years we are in this land but previous to that who knows we were in which land.) This is all illusion. This jananī janma bhūmi , huh? Devotee: I'm going for Gurudāsa. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā . This ijya*-dhīḥ , to worship the land of birth, but bhārata-bhūmi has special, it is pūjyā . . . Lalaji: That is my contention. Prabhupāda: Not, not as nationality. Lalaji: Not as nationality. There are more . . . Prabhupāda: But the land where Lord Kṛṣṇa came, Lord Rāma came, Lord Caitanya came, that land is certainly worshipable. That is another thing. In that way . . . Lalaji: In that way I was saying that more essential that we talk more of spiritualism here. I don't know whether they talk it in other countries or not. But we do here more of it. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Other countries all they have got high respect for India as spiritual land. But we are killing, our present government and so*-called leaders, killing that state. This is regrettable. They could hold this Bhārata-varṣa to the topmost summit all over the India if after Independence they would have organizedly preached Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedic culture. That is my mission. Now, whatever you may think of Bhārata-varṣa, outside, India is known as a poor . . . poorest country, because our ministers go there to beg. Lalaji: Prabhupāda, you have said that, really good, what I read this morning, that if . . . yudha . . . comes, we have to fight. Did you say to the people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They asked me, I said. Lalaji: That's what we want to hear now, you know. Prabhupāda: So these messages are very nice? (laughs) Devotee (3): What did you say to them, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What was the language? Lalaji: Language was when the war comes, Kṛṣṇa also said . . . asked Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: If it's a just war, you have to fight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: So that if it's a just war, we are going to fight. And the war is coming, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Why should we be afraid of fighting? Lalaji: We are not afraid of fighting. *Prabhupāda: We never . . . the Bhagavad*-gītā never says that when enemy attacks, you become nonviolent. No, no. Never says. Rather, Gandhi said that, "Yes, I shall . . ." Somebody asked Gandhiji that "If in your presence your wife or your daughter is ravaged, what you will do?" That question was there, actually. But he said that, "I shall nonviolence upon . . ." Lalaji: No, no, no Prabhupāda. Then he said: "I'll hit him back." On that condition. He said: "If that comes all right, hit him back." Prabhupāda: He said that. Lalaji: He said: "If a duṣṭa does that to you, you hit him back." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our policy. Our ātatāyinaḥ , the śastra , ātatāyinaḥ . Ātatāyinaḥ means a person who usurps my property. Lalaji: A tyrant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: A tyrant, ātatāyinaḥ . Prabhupāda: Aggressor, aggressor. Lalaji: Aggressor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: Ātatāyinaḥ . Prabhupāda: Who sets fire in my home and who wants to kill me, they're called ātatāyinaḥ . So they should be immediately killed. There's no question of nonviolent. And if the Vaiṣṇava is insulted, he should be killed immediately. That is also . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who advised that we should be humbler than the grass, but practically when Nityānanda Prabhu was insulted, He immediately wanted to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. So these messages . . . Lalaji: This has touched people. Prabhupāda: Hah, hah. *Lalaji: This is what they're worried about. Did you know last time there were these signals practicing black*-out and all that sort of thing? So now whole country is full of it. Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra's father, Daśaratha Maharaja, about him it is written, samūla vartham nava dhṛt ariṁśca. There are many qualification. Out of that, one qualification was samula avartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca. Enemy would come, then he will uproot the whole generation. Samula vartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca . Lalaji: After the festival, Prabhupāda, are you going to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am thinking of. I have not gone for many years. Lalaji: Your room is very well kept there. I have been to that place myself. Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalaji: We have seen that your room is kept well. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa is keeping? So I can go and live in my rooms. The difficulty is that whenever I go, at least another half*-a-dozen, one dozen will go. Lalaji: Naturally. Devotee: The entourage. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) So what shall I do? Therefore, otherwise I liked Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, but . . . Lalaji: We can find a place for them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: We can just go and arrange it if you allow us. Prabhupāda: Ah. Lalaji: If few days earlier we go while the festival is on, we can arrange for your place for you and for devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: . . . to stay. I can do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Lalaji: I'm going a couple of days earlier, anyway. Prabhupāda: All right. Kya nam tumhara? (What is your name?) Lalaji: Rohit. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: Rohit. Prabhupāda: Rohit, yes, I remember. Lalaji: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Rohit. Rohit was the son of . . . Lalaji: Hariścandra. Prabhupāda: Hariścandra, yes. And daughters? Lalaji: Daughters, they will be bringing with them this evening also, the two daughters. Prabhupāda: Oh. So how old they are? Lalaji: One is about seventeen. Prabhupāda: One I think came yesterday. Lalaji: Yesterday the two younger ones came. Of the two elder ones, we'll bring this evening. They are eighteen . . . seventeen, eighteen. Prabhupāda: So . . . Lalaji: One is studying to be . . . Prabhupāda: You are trying to find out some groom? Not yet. Lalaji: Not yet. I have not done anything. Prabhupāda: I think you can get them married if you find out good boy. Lalaji: Ap se ashirvad . . . (Your blessings . . .) Prabhupāda: Working. Lalaji: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Good health and working. Never mind rich or poor. Lalaji: No, no I am myself poor, why should I . . . (indistinct) . . . for a rich . . . Prabhupāda: You should see that he is good health and working. That's all. Not idle. So in your community I . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- November 11, 1971, Delhi here): (this page was renamed and can be found ( kīrtana in background) Mauritius man: Hmm. I think U.P. Prabhupāda: U.P. Mauritius man: Yeah, the majority of the people from Mauritius are of Indian origin. Prabhupāda: That's good. *Mauritius man: And Bhagavad*-gītā is always there. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Mauritius man: And all. Prabhupāda: I see. (break) Mauritius man: . . . your blessings on Mauritius some time? Prabhupāda: Yes, welcome. You arrange, we shall go. I'm going to Africa . . . Mauritius man: Ah. *Prabhupāda: . . . by the twenty*-third. So if you can arrange, we can go. Mauritius man: All right, I'd be delighted to. Prabhupāda: How far it is from Nairobi? Mauritius man: From? Prabhupāda: Nairobi. How far it is? Mauritius man: Ah. About two hours' flight. Prabhupāda: Two hours? Mauritius man: Yes, only. Very close. Prabhupāda: About 1,000 miles? Mauritius man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not very far. Mauritius man: Yes, not far. If you keep in touch with me, we shall try to see the . . . who looks after the program of Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: He is in charge of Africa. Mauritius man: I see. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda Swami. Mauritius man: I see, very good. Prabhupāda: He's American. *Mauritius man: Ah*-hah. Prabhupāda: But he has taken to the mission for preaching in Africa. (break) . . . (indistinct) Mauritius man: Yes, I find them very devoted and loyal. Prabhupāda: Indians are not very forward. Mauritius man: Very good. Prabhupāda: (to someone entering) Aiye! Aiye! (Please come. Please come.) Mauritius man: How many of . . . (break) Indian man: I'm a Hindu. Mauritius man: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man: I'm a Hindu . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: I was teaching in a . . . (indistinct) . . . temple in South India, from India . . . (indistinct) . . . face to face. Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man: (indistinct) . . . I been living for the last nineteen years in this district . . . (indistinct) . . . Holy Village . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . Prabhupāda: Holy Village? Indian man: Holy Village. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: Bombay, I mean he passed away in 1956, Bengali. Disciple of Svāmī . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm a freedom fighter and a journalist. (Hindi) And then I've been a journalist . . . (indistinct) . . . now I'm representative of the . . . (indistinct) . . . to start a home center like an āśrama for aged freedom fighters. This Maṭha . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: For aged and for freedom fighters, to start. They are given the pension of . . . (indistinct) . . . and to give them more. Not only . . . these Christians, they have started . . . I mean, Christians have laid the foundation stone for aged (indistict) and the government. There are so many, I mean in Bombay also there are so many also aged . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Let me take blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa also, Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Mandir . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's blessings are everywhere. (break) Indian man: . . . open. Prabhupāda: But nobody is prepared to take it. Kṛṣṇa says: "Just take shelter of Me and I will protect you from the reactions of all sinful life." Because here in the material world everyone is sinful—and there is reaction. He gives assurance that "I will give you protection from the reactions of sinful life. Just surrender unto Me." But nobody is doing it. Indian man: Swāmījī, your blessings that I will surrender. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Your kindly blessings that I surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means this, that "Kṛṣṇa, so long I was forgotten that missing You. Now I have gotten from this day I surrender unto You. Whatever You like, You can do it." That's all. Indian man: Swāmījī, I will request you to kindly give me that feeling of dedication and surrender. Bless me to have that feeling. Prabhupāda: It does not require—you simply . . . (indistinct) . . . let him come. Anyone wants to come, let him come. Just like one man has fallen in the well, and he's crying, "Please get me . . . get me out. Somebody please get some rope. Just catch it, I'll take it." Then where is the question now of getting a blessing? Here is the blessing: take it. But if you don't catch, or if you say that "Give me the strength to catch," this is not very good argument. Here is the rope; you catch it. That's all. But nobody is prepared to do that. Otherwise, the solution is there. Indian man: The situation is the guru is the one who catches? *Prabhupāda: The guru is speaking . . . guru is speaking: "Here is a bag of million dollars. Take it," then if you take . . . why don't you take it? If you don't take it, then how you can get rich? Kṛṣṇa says that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo , but nobody is taking it. These European and American boys, they are taking it up and they are advancing. But if you are not prepared to take, how you will advance? It is a plea, that "You give me your grace so that I can catch this . . . that goal of devotion," is that right? I'm already offering you the rope, you catch it. That is the difficulty. These people, they have taken it, they have surrendered, they are making progress. It is not very difficult. Just see how they are dancing in esctasy. These European boys and girls, they are in ecstasy. There is a girl, her father is a very rich man in Chicago—that is a big businessman—and she is with us. She is married; she has got husband. I get them married. Indian man: That's good. Prabhupāda: This is the first time in history that a sannyāsī is taking part in marriage making. Mauritius man: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What can be done? I have to. I cannot allow them to live as friends, you know. That is not. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Europe and America the boys and girls live as friends. I don't allow. They must get married. Kṛṣṇa can protect you from all the past sinful activities, but if you again commit, that is not good. So the illicit sex is sinful activity. As soon as you surrender, Kṛṣṇa excuses you from your past habits. But you don't commit again. That is our . . . just like one is insolvent, so in insolvency the court hears his excuse: "All right, but don't take any more debt." Mauritius man: That is the one. Indian man: At the end of that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if he takes debt, that is criminal if he is insolvent person. Just like in the court if he takes again debt, that will be criminal. The court says that, "You are unable to pay. All right, your former debts are all . . ." Indian man: Squashed up. Prabhupāda: ". . . cleared . . ." Indian man: Cleared of insolvency. Prabhupāda: ". . . burnt up. But don't take again." Our is like that. Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, whatever sinful activities are done, I clear, but don't do again." That is required. One must be determined that, "Whatever I have done, that's all right, that is being excused, but no more doing." And if we think that "Now I have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa and I will go on committing all sinful activities, and He'll excuse . . ." Eh? Like the Christian people say . . . Indian man: Ah. Prabhupāda: . . . that, "Our religion is very good because Jesus Christ suffered for all our sins, so we can go on committing our sinful life, and Jesus Christ will suffer." That is not very good proposal. Jesus Christ has once, for all, he has sacrificed his life for the sins of others, and if you make a contract that, "You go on suffering for us, and we will go on committing sin," that is not a very good proposition. *Indian man: Selfish motive. Self*-interest. *Prabhupāda: In the Vedic scriptures it is said, nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ (Bhakti-sandarbhaḥ 173), that this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa means you become free from all sinful activities. But it does not mean that you again commit sinful activities and you think that "I will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and it will be counteracted." Once you are forgiven, twice you are excused, but not for the third time. It's like in criminal court also. The magistrate, if the criminal says: "Sir, I did not know what was my . . . (indistinct) . . ." "All right, excused. Don't do it again." But if he every time says, that will not . . . (indistinct) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, people are kept in ignorance. The enlightenment is there, Bhagavad*-gītā , but they are not taking it. They are not taking it. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, everything is there. You can become very happy, this life, next life and so on. They do not know how to become happy. They want to become happy in their own way. It is entangling them, and people are suggesting, "Yes, you can execute your religious principle in your own way." How it is that? That's where they go to it. You cannot execute law in your own way. You must accept the laws of the state and execute it properly . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ( kīrtana concludes) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 11, 1971, Delhi here): (this page was renamed and can be found ( kīrtana in background) Mauritius man: Hmm. I think U.P. Prabhupāda: U.P. Mauritius man: Yeah, the majority of the people from Mauritius are of Indian origin. Prabhupāda: That's good. *Mauritius man: And Bhagavad*-gītā is always there. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Mauritius man: And all. Prabhupāda: I see. (break) Mauritius man: . . . your blessings on Mauritius some time? Prabhupāda: Yes, welcome. You arrange, we shall go. I'm going to Africa . . . Mauritius man: Ah. *Prabhupāda: . . . by the twenty*-third. So if you can arrange, we can go. Mauritius man: All right, I'd be delighted to. Prabhupāda: How far it is from Nairobi? Mauritius man: From? Prabhupāda: Nairobi. How far it is? Mauritius man: Ah. About two hours' flight. Prabhupāda: Two hours? Mauritius man: Yes, only. Very close. Prabhupāda: About 1,000 miles? Mauritius man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not very far. Mauritius man: Yes, not far. If you keep in touch with me, we shall try to see the . . . who looks after the program of Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: He is in charge of Africa. Mauritius man: I see. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda Swami. Mauritius man: I see, very good. Prabhupāda: He's American. *Mauritius man: Ah*-hah. Prabhupāda: But he has taken to the mission for preaching in Africa. (break) . . . (indistinct) Mauritius man: Yes, I find them very devoted and loyal. Prabhupāda: Indians are not very forward. Mauritius man: Very good. Prabhupāda: (to someone entering) Aiye! Aiye! (Please come. Please come.) Mauritius man: How many of . . . (break) Indian man: I'm a Hindu. Mauritius man: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man: I'm a Hindu . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: I was teaching in a . . . (indistinct) . . . temple in South India, from India . . . (indistinct) . . . face to face. Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man: (indistinct) . . . I been living for the last nineteen years in this district . . . (indistinct) . . . Holy Village . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . Prabhupāda: Holy Village? Indian man: Holy Village. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: Bombay, I mean he passed away in 1956, Bengali. Disciple of Svāmī . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm a freedom fighter and a journalist. (Hindi) And then I've been a journalist . . . (indistinct) . . . now I'm representative of the . . . (indistinct) . . . to start a home center like an āśrama for aged freedom fighters. This Maṭha . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: For aged and for freedom fighters, to start. They are given the pension of . . . (indistinct) . . . and to give them more. Not only . . . these Christians, they have started . . . I mean, Christians have laid the foundation stone for aged (indistict) and the government. There are so many, I mean in Bombay also there are so many also aged . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Let me take blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa also, Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Mandir . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's blessings are everywhere. (break) Indian man: . . . open. Prabhupāda: But nobody is prepared to take it. Kṛṣṇa says: "Just take shelter of Me and I will protect you from the reactions of all sinful life." Because here in the material world everyone is sinful—and there is reaction. He gives assurance that "I will give you protection from the reactions of sinful life. Just surrender unto Me." But nobody is doing it. Indian man: Swāmījī, your blessings that I will surrender. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Your kindly blessings that I surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means this, that "Kṛṣṇa, so long I was forgotten that missing You. Now I have gotten from this day I surrender unto You. Whatever You like, You can do it." That's all. Indian man: Swāmījī, I will request you to kindly give me that feeling of dedication and surrender. Bless me to have that feeling. Prabhupāda: It does not require—you simply . . . (indistinct) . . . let him come. Anyone wants to come, let him come. Just like one man has fallen in the well, and he's crying, "Please get me . . . get me out. Somebody please get some rope. Just catch it, I'll take it." Then where is the question now of getting a blessing? Here is the blessing: take it. But if you don't catch, or if you say that "Give me the strength to catch," this is not very good argument. Here is the rope; you catch it. That's all. But nobody is prepared to do that. Otherwise, the solution is there. Indian man: The situation is the guru is the one who catches? *Prabhupāda: The guru is speaking . . . guru is speaking: "Here is a bag of million dollars. Take it," then if you take . . . why don't you take it? If you don't take it, then how you can get rich? Kṛṣṇa says that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo , but nobody is taking it. These European and American boys, they are taking it up and they are advancing. But if you are not prepared to take, how you will advance? It is a plea, that "You give me your grace so that I can catch this . . . that goal of devotion," is that right? I'm already offering you the rope, you catch it. That is the difficulty. These people, they have taken it, they have surrendered, they are making progress. It is not very difficult. Just see how they are dancing in esctasy. These European boys and girls, they are in ecstasy. There is a girl, her father is a very rich man in Chicago—that is a big businessman—and she is with us. She is married; she has got husband. I get them married. Indian man: That's good. Prabhupāda: This is the first time in history that a sannyāsī is taking part in marriage making. Mauritius man: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What can be done? I have to. I cannot allow them to live as friends, you know. That is not. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Europe and America the boys and girls live as friends. I don't allow. They must get married. Kṛṣṇa can protect you from all the past sinful activities, but if you again commit, that is not good. So the illicit sex is sinful activity. As soon as you surrender, Kṛṣṇa excuses you from your past habits. But you don't commit again. That is our . . . just like one is insolvent, so in insolvency the court hears his excuse: "All right, but don't take any more debt." Mauritius man: That is the one. Indian man: At the end of that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if he takes debt, that is criminal if he is insolvent person. Just like in the court if he takes again debt, that will be criminal. The court says that, "You are unable to pay. All right, your former debts are all . . ." Indian man: Squashed up. Prabhupāda: ". . . cleared . . ." Indian man: Cleared of insolvency. Prabhupāda: ". . . burnt up. But don't take again." Our is like that. Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, whatever sinful activities are done, I clear, but don't do again." That is required. One must be determined that, "Whatever I have done, that's all right, that is being excused, but no more doing." And if we think that "Now I have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa and I will go on committing all sinful activities, and He'll excuse . . ." Eh? Like the Christian people say . . . Indian man: Ah. Prabhupāda: . . . that, "Our religion is very good because Jesus Christ suffered for all our sins, so we can go on committing our sinful life, and Jesus Christ will suffer." That is not very good proposal. Jesus Christ has once, for all, he has sacrificed his life for the sins of others, and if you make a contract that, "You go on suffering for us, and we will go on committing sin," that is not a very good proposition. *Indian man: Selfish motive. Self*-interest. *Prabhupāda: In the Vedic scriptures it is said, nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ (Bhakti-sandarbhaḥ 173), that this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa means you become free from all sinful activities. But it does not mean that you again commit sinful activities and you think that "I will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and it will be counteracted." Once you are forgiven, twice you are excused, but not for the third time. It's like in criminal court also. The magistrate, if the criminal says: "Sir, I did not know what was my . . . (indistinct) . . ." "All right, excused. Don't do it again." But if he every time says, that will not . . . (indistinct) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, people are kept in ignorance. The enlightenment is there, Bhagavad*-gītā , but they are not taking it. They are not taking it. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, everything is there. You can become very happy, this life, next life and so on. They do not know how to become happy. They want to become happy in their own way. It is entangling them, and people are suggesting, "Yes, you can execute your religious principle in your own way." How it is that? That's where they go to it. You cannot execute law in your own way. You must accept the laws of the state and execute it properly . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ( kīrtana concludes) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 12, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: The height has been confusing. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: ..but I asked whether there is ventilation he said, "no." The . . . (indistinct) . . . did not know . . . hoping (break) cheap relief, now they've got a chance (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . it requires some strength in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . again . . . (indistinct) . . . in this way print and selling books and stocking books you will get rich and it will be propagation of the mission and the saṅkīrtana movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but whether we are prepared and . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy print books and . . . (indistinct) . . . and make that awarding salaries . . . (indistinct) . . . burden . . . (indistinct) . . . books . . . (indistinct) . . . talking, simply talk of philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . and the Deity room upstairs. They are not interested in the Deities, they are interested in philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . make this propaganda clear . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (break) we don't require much . . . (indistinct) . . . downstairs make a lecture room office and for men . . . (indistinct) . . . Women . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they take care of the Deities and then the downstairs the meeting room . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . not for money or credit it to me, no . . . (indistinct) . . . and you sell them and get the whole money and make cheap edition, make cheap edition. . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Yes in rich man's house they have library with books every place, and chairs. Prabhupāda: And lamps. And go there and sit down on the floor . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: (laughs) even the devotees were having difficulty, I mean Birla . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . this is the verse . . . (indistinct) . . . preach . . . (indistinct) . . . because this is also . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: This is what we need. That's a very good idea. All over India. Prabhupāda: Bombay we will have more Diety worship. Everywhere . . . here also Deity worship must go on. Guru Dasa: The idea of book selling and distributing that I am speaking of. Not the polit . . . not for this quarter but the idea of printing cheap editions and distributing on a wide scale is a very good way to preach. Prabhupāda: Schools and colleges it is recommended that this should be read by the college students. Guru Dasa: And we will get devotees, many devotees. Prabhupāda: As soon as they read our books they will come. Guru Dasa: Especially high school. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru Dasa: Especially in high school. Prabhupāda: High school, college and government officers. Somehow or another induce them to read our books. We open some . . . (indistinct) . . . (break). Any sane man will read our books you will find. Because this writing was not . . . (indistinct) . . . even . . . (indistinct) . . . the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . simply making business and cheating . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not our pride but actually . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody can say authoritatively about God that would be, nobody else. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nobody . . . nobody has clear idea . . . actually . . . (indistinct) . . . unnecessary joined. Guru Dasa: All the books are . . . is completely abstractions, the books you can see that about spiritual life from other people they are completely abstract. There is nothing clear. Prabhupāda: No. Guru Dasa: Nothing clear. Prabhupāda: No. Because they have no clear idea. Vague idea. Guru Dasa: And people will . . . foolish men will accept it, "Oh he knows so much." Because I don't understand but why not let them understand something. You've seen some of the type of books that? Prabhupāda: I don't ask, but to see I don't ask them. Guru Dasa: Completely abstract. Prabhupāda: They will speak of highly post. "Formally I was not so advanced." Still I've never liked to read this Ramakrishna kind of book or Rabindra Tagore . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gandhi's literature. I don't . . . (indistinct) . . . that was my . . . (indistinct) . . . special protection . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: One night in Bombay. When many our students are attracted to look at another book. I tell them the story that one night in Bombay someone gave you a set of his books and you used them as plates for sweets. And handed them back to the devotees. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . there is only a few books *Bhāgavatam* . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Hmm . . . (break) Prabhupāda: I was thinking of leading a saṅkīrtana party provided I get some. At least half a dozen educated . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Village to village. Prabhupāda: Or you can make . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) intelligent class of people but the Indians they do not come to take it. They come . . . (indistinct) . . . mostly. Make some profit. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So did you talk with Ramānanda? Guru Dasa: I sent a telegram and I followed up with a letter, explaining. (break) Prabhupāda: One bus . . . bus . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Minibus. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru Dasa: Minibus. Prabhupāda: Minibus. Don't stop Then he can . . . (indistinct) . . . travel all over India. With our own. India is not so cold. Brahmānanda: No. We can have tent. Prabhupāda: Tents yes. Brahmānanda: Prepare our own prasāda , distribute. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . also and in the evening kīrtana . Guru Dasa: Kīrtana . Prabhupāda: . . . and you will have no expenditure you will go to village and village as you like.. Guru Dasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If you prepare well. Guru Dasa: Definitely. Prabhupāda: Some supplies, milk, rice, wheat, vegetables, ghee. Cook nicely eat and invite . . . (indistinct) . . . many citizens if they like they will come and . . . (indistinct) . . . and kīrtana . Marvelous . . . and they have already heard about us and when they hear that we are coming . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: They said they will go from village to village ahead of us. Prabhupāda: Only thing is four men should go ahead, one village to bring on . . . (indistinct) . . . another some men another village he must hand out special leaflets. Or second batch of tents arranged . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And this man goes next. They go next. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: In this way you make nice preparation. Every day new village or a new students. And when . . . (indistinct) . . . take their men travel to the center and go on with saṅkīrtana . . . we have got Hindi books Gita Press we don't require to publish. Gita Press is called Bhāgavata dharma but they are sometimes talking nonsense. Still in the village whenever there is question of Bhāgavata class, oh hundreds and thousands people. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands of them. (break) there are many temples (break) in the western countries . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Yes the travelling parties. Prabhupāda: We have to fight with these demons, we have . . . (indistinct) Brahmānanda: We had that program in Africa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Brahmānanda: We would go from town to town to town. They would arrange in advance for us and we would just. We didn't even know where we were going, we'd just go. And then we would find out who was in the next town and the next town. Prabhupāda: Already prepared. Brahmānanda: Yes and we didn't have to worry about any. Because they would give us all accommodations. Prabhupāda: The Africans? Brahmānanda: No no the Indians, they would give us accommodations booked. We would arrange programs for both Africans and Indians. For the Indians we would arrange either in some big man's house or in some temple and for the Africans (break) halls, they have these halls . . . social halls where they meet. And we did every village and we never had a . . . spend anything. Our food was . . . everyone . . . everything was taken care of. And we collected tons of money, distributed tons of books. Prabhupāda: Then go on with that. That we need. Guru Dasa: Did somebody went ahead or not? Brahmānanda: No they would telephone ahead and they would arrange. They would always know the people in the next town who to contact. Prabhupāda: I see. They like it . . . (break) half Indians half . . . (indistinct) . . . but there is no good preacher even . . . (break) Brahmānanda: Yes, it is very cold. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru Dasa: Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . because it is made of earth better arrangement (break) well, new well water . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . forest. Brahmānanda: In Māyāpura that's where I discovered that in the morning the well water is warm and in the daytime the well water is cold, it is so nice. Not that when you take a bath in the morning the water is very warm. Prabhupāda: Like underneath the tree during winter it is warm and during summer it is cold. I have seen practically in London in Regent's Park there is a small lake. Everything in it . . . what's it called? It becomes . . . ice, the water, what's it called? Brahmānanda: Frozen. Prabhupāda: Frozen, yes. The water is frozen but in parts when there is a tree above the water that wasn't frozen. I marked it, that means it gives warmth. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Except that part everything is frozen but the . . . underneath the tree it is not. Guru Dasa: Yes. Brahmānanda: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This I have marked whilst walking. Other parts the seagulls, seagulls? Guru Dasa: Seagulls. Prabhupāda: They are walking. Brahmānanda: But not in that part? Prabhupāda: That part . . . it's solid for swimming. Guru Dasa: Yes. Yes, the children they used to also walk and where it gets near the tree they could not walk, the ice would become thin so you don't walk. Prabhupāda: That means it is warm. During in winter season underneath the tree you can get warm. Therefore under . . . to live underneath the tree is safe both seasons. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And rainy season also, the storm, the rain will not keep. The leaves will cover it and give you shelter. In a great storm if you remain underneath the tree you don't feel anything. The tree will do like this (laughs) you remain safe and then if the tree falls down. Generally it does not but sometimes an old tree will displace. So any amount of wind or storm may go on if you are under the tree you don't feel anything. And if a small canopy underneath the tree will protect you from rain and there rain with full strength cannot, everything falls on the leaves tuk, tak, tuk, tak. On a small canopy . . . nature's way of giving protection not only to the birds, towards the human beings. In Africa when I saw they prepare regular cottage up upon the hill. Brahmānanda: Yes . . . well when we were in Florida, Gargamuni Svāmī, Viṣṇujana Svāmī and myself we were sometimes staying in a house in a tree. Prabhupāda: Was it comfortable? Brahmānanda: Well it was a little small. (laughs) But it was nice. Prabhupāda: At night? Brahmānanda: We would sleep there. Prabhupāda: No animals. Brahmānanda: No no one would come. Prabhupāda: Even that animals, tigers cannot get up. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Snakes may get up. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Snake or, or other wild animals. Guru Dasa: If leave a kerosene lamp and they won't come. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is light they won't. Guru Dasa: Very comfortable living in a tree. Simply you make a platform, tie it on, you don't even have to nail, on the branches. Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice . . . and passing urine and stool that is also not difficult. Brahmānanda: (laughs) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 12, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: The height has been confusing. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: ..but I asked whether there is ventilation he said, "no." The . . . (indistinct) . . . did not know . . . hoping (break) cheap relief, now they've got a chance (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . it requires some strength in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . again . . . (indistinct) . . . in this way print and selling books and stocking books you will get rich and it will be propagation of the mission and the saṅkīrtana movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but whether we are prepared and . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy print books and . . . (indistinct) . . . and make that awarding salaries . . . (indistinct) . . . burden . . . (indistinct) . . . books . . . (indistinct) . . . talking, simply talk of philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . and the Deity room upstairs. They are not interested in the Deities, they are interested in philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . make this propaganda clear . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (break) we don't require much . . . (indistinct) . . . downstairs make a lecture room office and for men . . . (indistinct) . . . Women . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they take care of the Deities and then the downstairs the meeting room . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . not for money or credit it to me, no . . . (indistinct) . . . and you sell them and get the whole money and make cheap edition, make cheap edition. . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Yes in rich man's house they have library with books every place, and chairs. Prabhupāda: And lamps. And go there and sit down on the floor . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: (laughs) even the devotees were having difficulty, I mean Birla . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . this is the verse . . . (indistinct) . . . preach . . . (indistinct) . . . because this is also . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: This is what we need. That's a very good idea. All over India. Prabhupāda: Bombay we will have more Diety worship. Everywhere . . . here also Deity worship must go on. Guru Dasa: The idea of book selling and distributing that I am speaking of. Not the polit . . . not for this quarter but the idea of printing cheap editions and distributing on a wide scale is a very good way to preach. Prabhupāda: Schools and colleges it is recommended that this should be read by the college students. Guru Dasa: And we will get devotees, many devotees. Prabhupāda: As soon as they read our books they will come. Guru Dasa: Especially high school. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru Dasa: Especially in high school. Prabhupāda: High school, college and government officers. Somehow or another induce them to read our books. We open some . . . (indistinct) . . . (break). Any sane man will read our books you will find. Because this writing was not . . . (indistinct) . . . even . . . (indistinct) . . . the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . simply making business and cheating . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not our pride but actually . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody can say authoritatively about God that would be, nobody else. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nobody . . . nobody has clear idea . . . actually . . . (indistinct) . . . unnecessary joined. Guru Dasa: All the books are . . . is completely abstractions, the books you can see that about spiritual life from other people they are completely abstract. There is nothing clear. Prabhupāda: No. Guru Dasa: Nothing clear. Prabhupāda: No. Because they have no clear idea. Vague idea. Guru Dasa: And people will . . . foolish men will accept it, "Oh he knows so much." Because I don't understand but why not let them understand something. You've seen some of the type of books that? Prabhupāda: I don't ask, but to see I don't ask them. Guru Dasa: Completely abstract. Prabhupāda: They will speak of highly post. "Formally I was not so advanced." Still I've never liked to read this Ramakrishna kind of book or Rabindra Tagore . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gandhi's literature. I don't . . . (indistinct) . . . that was my . . . (indistinct) . . . special protection . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: One night in Bombay. When many our students are attracted to look at another book. I tell them the story that one night in Bombay someone gave you a set of his books and you used them as plates for sweets. And handed them back to the devotees. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . there is only a few books *Bhāgavatam* . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Hmm . . . (break) Prabhupāda: I was thinking of leading a saṅkīrtana party provided I get some. At least half a dozen educated . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Village to village. Prabhupāda: Or you can make . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) intelligent class of people but the Indians they do not come to take it. They come . . . (indistinct) . . . mostly. Make some profit. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So did you talk with Ramānanda? Guru Dasa: I sent a telegram and I followed up with a letter, explaining. (break) Prabhupāda: One bus . . . bus . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Minibus. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru Dasa: Minibus. Prabhupāda: Minibus. Don't stop Then he can . . . (indistinct) . . . travel all over India. With our own. India is not so cold. Brahmānanda: No. We can have tent. Prabhupāda: Tents yes. Brahmānanda: Prepare our own prasāda , distribute. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . also and in the evening kīrtana . Guru Dasa: Kīrtana . Prabhupāda: . . . and you will have no expenditure you will go to village and village as you like.. Guru Dasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If you prepare well. Guru Dasa: Definitely. Prabhupāda: Some supplies, milk, rice, wheat, vegetables, ghee. Cook nicely eat and invite . . . (indistinct) . . . many citizens if they like they will come and . . . (indistinct) . . . and kīrtana . Marvelous . . . and they have already heard about us and when they hear that we are coming . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: They said they will go from village to village ahead of us. Prabhupāda: Only thing is four men should go ahead, one village to bring on . . . (indistinct) . . . another some men another village he must hand out special leaflets. Or second batch of tents arranged . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And this man goes next. They go next. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: In this way you make nice preparation. Every day new village or a new students. And when . . . (indistinct) . . . take their men travel to the center and go on with saṅkīrtana . . . we have got Hindi books Gita Press we don't require to publish. Gita Press is called Bhāgavata dharma but they are sometimes talking nonsense. Still in the village whenever there is question of Bhāgavata class, oh hundreds and thousands people. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands of them. (break) there are many temples (break) in the western countries . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Yes the travelling parties. Prabhupāda: We have to fight with these demons, we have . . . (indistinct) Brahmānanda: We had that program in Africa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Brahmānanda: We would go from town to town to town. They would arrange in advance for us and we would just. We didn't even know where we were going, we'd just go. And then we would find out who was in the next town and the next town. Prabhupāda: Already prepared. Brahmānanda: Yes and we didn't have to worry about any. Because they would give us all accommodations. Prabhupāda: The Africans? Brahmānanda: No no the Indians, they would give us accommodations booked. We would arrange programs for both Africans and Indians. For the Indians we would arrange either in some big man's house or in some temple and for the Africans (break) halls, they have these halls . . . social halls where they meet. And we did every village and we never had a . . . spend anything. Our food was . . . everyone . . . everything was taken care of. And we collected tons of money, distributed tons of books. Prabhupāda: Then go on with that. That we need. Guru Dasa: Did somebody went ahead or not? Brahmānanda: No they would telephone ahead and they would arrange. They would always know the people in the next town who to contact. Prabhupāda: I see. They like it . . . (break) half Indians half . . . (indistinct) . . . but there is no good preacher even . . . (break) Brahmānanda: Yes, it is very cold. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru Dasa: Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . because it is made of earth better arrangement (break) well, new well water . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . forest. Brahmānanda: In Māyāpura that's where I discovered that in the morning the well water is warm and in the daytime the well water is cold, it is so nice. Not that when you take a bath in the morning the water is very warm. Prabhupāda: Like underneath the tree during winter it is warm and during summer it is cold. I have seen practically in London in Regent's Park there is a small lake. Everything in it . . . what's it called? It becomes . . . ice, the water, what's it called? Brahmānanda: Frozen. Prabhupāda: Frozen, yes. The water is frozen but in parts when there is a tree above the water that wasn't frozen. I marked it, that means it gives warmth. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Except that part everything is frozen but the . . . underneath the tree it is not. Guru Dasa: Yes. Brahmānanda: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This I have marked whilst walking. Other parts the seagulls, seagulls? Guru Dasa: Seagulls. Prabhupāda: They are walking. Brahmānanda: But not in that part? Prabhupāda: That part . . . it's solid for swimming. Guru Dasa: Yes. Yes, the children they used to also walk and where it gets near the tree they could not walk, the ice would become thin so you don't walk. Prabhupāda: That means it is warm. During in winter season underneath the tree you can get warm. Therefore under . . . to live underneath the tree is safe both seasons. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And rainy season also, the storm, the rain will not keep. The leaves will cover it and give you shelter. In a great storm if you remain underneath the tree you don't feel anything. The tree will do like this (laughs) you remain safe and then if the tree falls down. Generally it does not but sometimes an old tree will displace. So any amount of wind or storm may go on if you are under the tree you don't feel anything. And if a small canopy underneath the tree will protect you from rain and there rain with full strength cannot, everything falls on the leaves tuk, tak, tuk, tak. On a small canopy . . . nature's way of giving protection not only to the birds, towards the human beings. In Africa when I saw they prepare regular cottage up upon the hill. Brahmānanda: Yes . . . well when we were in Florida, Gargamuni Svāmī, Viṣṇujana Svāmī and myself we were sometimes staying in a house in a tree. Prabhupāda: Was it comfortable? Brahmānanda: Well it was a little small. (laughs) But it was nice. Prabhupāda: At night? Brahmānanda: We would sleep there. Prabhupāda: No animals. Brahmānanda: No no one would come. Prabhupāda: Even that animals, tigers cannot get up. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Snakes may get up. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Snake or, or other wild animals. Guru Dasa: If leave a kerosene lamp and they won't come. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is light they won't. Guru Dasa: Very comfortable living in a tree. Simply you make a platform, tie it on, you don't even have to nail, on the branches. Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice . . . and passing urine and stool that is also not difficult. Brahmānanda: (laughs) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 25, 1971, Delhi Dr. Singh: . . . śarīra . *Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke ( SB 10.84.13) . . . (indistinct) . . . everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs , I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to *Vedas* . But all the . . . anywhere we go, material . . . these people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. *Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away. Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the *Upaniṣads* , when they talk of this path . . . (indistinct) . . . yoga agni mayam shariram . Nahi, unko kehna tha. (No, this is what he meant to say.) So if you . . . what does that mean? Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam . Dr. Singh: Yoga agni māyām śarīraram . *Prabhupāda: Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . Dr. Singh: Coming now. This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Cinmaya , cinmaya-śarīra we have got. In the Padma Purāṇa , the length and breadth of this cinmaya-śarīra is given—one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Dr. Singh: This is my wife. Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you? Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. Star one English friend of ours who is out . . . who is . . . Prabhupāda: (to lady) So why are you sitting down? Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that: (indistinct) . . . because here everyone is puffed up. Dr. Singh: Ahaṅkāra . *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā . (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the Bible also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find. Devotee: Inherit the earth. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth." *Prabhupāda: So this is . . . because our puffed*-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore brahma-bhūtaḥ , those who are self-realized, they are prasannātmā . Any condition of life they are happy, jolly. Dr. Singh: So Swāmījī, if er . . . if Īśa is everywhere, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), then surely He is in the body also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of of em, of em . . . care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to . . . the body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given (up) everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything. Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Prabhupāda: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). *Dr. Singh: (chuckles) They simply take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died. Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: (laughs) Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright*-faced. *Dr. Singh: Bright*-faced. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: Ujjwala*-mukha . *Prabhupāda: Yes, ujjwala*-mukha . And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that, "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in . . . gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that, "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that. Another priest, Christian priest, in New York . . . in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that, "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to . . . Dr. Singh: Would you have . . . (indistinct) . . .? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with. Prabhupāda: One glass of water will be fine. Dr. Singh: Pani de dijiye, unko de dijiye. (Give it to him, give it to him.) Only water? Only water, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: We can take. What is it? Dr. Singh: Inko do, jo bhi inko dena ho. (Give it to him, whatever you have.) Prabhupāda: Kya chiz hai? (What is this?) Dr. Singh: Kuch hai, ye anna jaisa hai. (aside) Ye rehne do, ye kyu . . . (indistinct) . . . unki habit nahi. (It is similar to rice. (aside) Just leave it, why did you . . . not in his habit.) We have made a truly sattvic bhojana today, so there is no problem. Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya . (Dr. Singh laughs) Rājarṣi . Dr. Singh: Rajarshi to kya hai lekin ye Raghuvamsha ka hai avashya. (I don't know if I am a rājarṣi or not, but surely we are from Raghuvaṁśa.) *Prabhupāda: Nahi, ap hi ka hai. (No, you definitely belong to their lineage.) Your generation are kṣatriya . Actually we give stress in our civilization, brahmin and kṣatriya . Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Yehi to hum log ka durbhagya ho gaya. (This is our great misfortune.) We have lost our kṣatriyas , we have lost our . . . Dr. Singh: Kshatra bal nahi raha, kshatra dharma nahi raha. ( Kṣatriyas don't possess any prowess now, nor do they have the kṣatriya religiosity.) Prabhupāda: To isliye . . . (That's why . . .) the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms. Dr. Singh: And also the . . . Prabhupāda: And the brahmins the head. Dr. Singh: But in the *Upaniṣads* , as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember? Indian man: Fourth Chapter of *Gītā* . . . (indistinct) . . . Fourth Chapter of *Gītā* . . . (indistinct) . . . the knowledge is being handed over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Handed down. *Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect. Dr. Singh: Sretaketu also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity. Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine. Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: I want to revive brahminism , kṣatriya*-ism . Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma . Dharma means this classification dharma . There are two kinds of dharmas . One, material dharma , and another, spiritual dharma . Actually, dharma means spiritual. *But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma , we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). *Dr. Singh: Guṇa*-karma vibhādayo . Prabhupāda: So the brahmin's dharma , the kṣatriya's dharma , the vaiśya's dharma and the śūdra's dharma . Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be . . . he must have the knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas . *Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That . . . that is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas . Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā . The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva , raja , tama guṇa . And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya , nirguṇa . Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ . Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: So two sides we are trying to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is on the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division— brahmin , kṣatriya , vaisya , śūdra . Those who are purely in goodness, they are brahmin . Next to that, passion, kṣatriya . And next to that, vaiśya , mixture. And next to that, śūdra . And next to that, caṇḍāla . Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have for example . . . he's got to have his . . . he's got to have knowledge of the dharma . He's got to have the capacity to act . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: . . . of the kṣatriya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and Nipuṇāta . . . (perfect skills . . .) for example, and service. Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that, that . . . Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age? Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if, if you are a kṣatriya , you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field. Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally, which is equally (laughs) hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact. Prabhupāda: Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there . . . someone must be there manager. So this, this division of the society . . . Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head. Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is wanted. Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be in brahmin or either you may be kṣatriya , either you may be vaiśya or śūdra , it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ . Vibhāgaśa is accepted, varna āśrama . Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya . Now everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya , you remain brahmin , you remain śūdra , it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya . He was a fighter; *he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said: "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was . . . he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not . . . I am . . ." Yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . *Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-sammūḍha-cetāḥ . *Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad*-gītā . So he remained a kṣatriya . But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya , brahmin , kṣatriya . It doesn't matter. Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied. Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by . . . by connecting. *Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). So we are parts and . . . if we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy. Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma . Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body . . . suppose I want to scratch here; *a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased. Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life? Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take . . . just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . that is the definition of bhakti . Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ , that is bhakti . Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he must have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification? Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification . . . love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification? *Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170): when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated, "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ , that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are? Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) śivo 'ham, śivo . . . Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty? *Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am śivo 'ham , or brahmāsmi , or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. Tat*-paratvena nirmalam . *When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti . So therefore bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti , and this is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, then there is already division: an intelligent class of men, the administrator. Just like not all, everyone, is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I'll not interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of man, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or home minister, he has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore that is required. Then, hah . . . tejaḥ . First, first these administrators must be tejasvī . . . īśvara bhāva . . . dānam yūdhe cāpy apalāyanam (BG 18.43). Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch, and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya . The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained, as in business we give training. *Similarly, those who are going to take up, take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brahmins , the śāstra , sādhu-śāstra*-guru . And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there; simply the training is not there. Therefore there is chaos. Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there. Prabhupāda: No, not so. Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Singh: If you read Chanakya niti and all. Prabhupāda: Chanakya niti , it is of course about some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we have . . . we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed. Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war. *Prabhupāda: That, that's all right. Er, er . . . recorded means. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world . . . because India, or Bhārata*-varṣa , means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. *This, this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa . Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa . Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata . . . you know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa . And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this first to last, then gradually . . . why? The culture was lost. The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he is desiring, "With this sword I shall kill you." So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā . Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem? (break) These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: *Another, in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : *We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore we created all these things. Who, whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ : "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni , he can come to Me." That, what is not the duty of those who are elevated as brahmin and kṣatriya , to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni , he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *But that we did not do. We simply hated. Now one, at the . . . during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the . . . (indistinct) . . . put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Now, whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only . . . Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world? Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united? Dr. Singh: But should one teach the world to become united . . . (indistinct) . . . with Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . ." Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later. Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after? Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the first priority? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Singh: First priority is to try . . . (break) . . . function. Prabhupāda: What, what do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you. Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brahmin class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is a intelligent class of men? Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work. Prabhupāda: Everyone is working. Dr. Singh: They can do . . . they can be very good worker. Prabhupāda: When your brain . . . brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work. Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone. Dr. Singh: They can fight also. Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that, "Here is a enemy," so hand immediately raised. Brain gives direction that, "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya . And the belly supplies food in that, vaiśya . And the legs, śūdra , carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be a intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. *So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate , he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). *That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. Ya eṣāṁ ātma*-bhuvam īśvaram na bhajanty abhijānanti sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 11.5.3) sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ . Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brahmin , kṣatriyas , they have fallen down. Brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , everyone. Sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ . Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy? *Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. Even this a material ecstacy . . . that ecstacy, spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā , when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Singh: I don't know whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight. Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it . . . (indistinct) . . . you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought. Prabhupāda: That everything was done by Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Singh: When He went as a duta (messenger). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; *it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad*-gītā . And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that, "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin (BG 11.33). So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative. Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Arjuna. Prabhupāda: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book. Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Dr. Singh: This one? Oh! Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture. Śyāmasundara: Your secretary gave it to us. Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books. Prabhupāda: So some of the points some of the points . . . what was the points? Śyāmasundara: The . . . that every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we are doing. Dr. Singh: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmins only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmins. Dr. Singh: All brāhmaṇas . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) *Prabhupāda: It was not? Now we are creating brahmins from America, from Australia. Is it not re*-creation of . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism. Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation. Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brahmins , kṣatriyas —especially brahmin —from every community. Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kīrtana tonight? What is the program, or do we . . . Śyāmasundara: As you wish. Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes, kīrtana . Dr. Singh: Shall I, before dinner, before food. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement. Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Yes. We can answer any philosophy. Devotee: We have a . . . Prabhupāda: Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ , kecit . . . there is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . Just like there is fog—if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way . . . *Dr. Singh: Anti*-pollution. Prabhupāda: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal. (aside) All right, have some kīrtana . I think in 1925 I went to Kashmir. Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: What is your birthday? Dr. Singh: '31, 1931. (laughs) Prabhupāda: And your father's? Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away. Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896. Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? (to Mālatī) What do you want? A piece of paper? Devotee: She wants to write the words of the mantra on a piece of paper. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa? (indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words) Write. Write. Give her. (break) Mālatī: . . . photographs from India of the actual . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: . . . Harrison. So our devotees, they . . . (indistinct) . . . that singer of the Beatles. Prabhupāda: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars. Dr. Singh: Did he? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . "Words from Apple." Prabhupāda: This boy contacted, Śyāmasundara . . . (indistinct) . . . find out. Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . (reading) "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, Nam bade bade sundar apne chune hai. (You have selected very beautiful big big names.) (laughs), Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti? Mālatī: No, she's on her way. Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralī dāsa . . . Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all of them work for this movement. Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure. Śyāmasundara: In the beginning of this chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . you talked about men who lead . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). That is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is scientific. Our śreṣṭha jan (those who are leading us) has gone to hell. How the people will come to . . . (indistinct) . . . they don't care for God. Godless existence . . . (indistinct) . . . by the grace of Kṛṣṇa we are . . . humanity . . . trying to be . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . difficult to do but I, one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya. Prabhupāda: I said that our government should give me facility for . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha though I am not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: what I am not. Dr. Singh: (laughs) a cadre, a cadre . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What, what fault I have? Dr. Singh: (laughs) Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India. Prabhupāda: Does he, does he move better than me or less? Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time—he's based in India. Prabhupāda: Because he has no followers. (laughter) Nobody will give him place. Dr. Singh: Even I can give him . . . (indistinct) . . . I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses. Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses. Prabhupāda: So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified? Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it? Prabhupāda: Not a single farthing. Why this . . . Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress. Prabhupāda: Rather they, they, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away." Dr. Singh: Do they say that? Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know, but that is their minor point. Immediately that . . . (indistinct) . . . said . . . what is that? "No foreigner can stay there?" Śyāmasundara: In Nadia. Prabhupāda: Nadia. I do not know whether it is there. So we are being indirectly disturbed. Dr. Singh: That must be because this, got trouble there, and the foreigners . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But what must they . . . they should, government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. It's so unfortunate. Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets come. (laughs) They are always respected more abroad. Mālatī: But the point is, we are . . . he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country. Prabhupāda: Recently one paper has remarked that, "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that. Dr. Singh: Here? Prabhupāda: No. Where it is? Mālatī: Boston. Prabhupāda: Boston. Also in Buffalo. Mālatī: Buffalo, yes. Śyāmasundara: He was speaking in reference to the Pope. The Pope didn't acknowledge your letter to him. Dr. Singh: Did it or did? Śyāmasundara: Did not. Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? (laughs) Prabhupāda: I may not think that, but I wanted to see. He is a head of a very great religion, so I want to bring cooperation, I offered my cooperation and he sided me, so I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age different means and everything. Handicap. Still I am . . . *Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian*-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples? Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians. Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from . . . Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside." Dr. Singh: That is the . . . I think you're quite right, due to that is what they do. Prabhupāda: They have learned everything. Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not? *Prabhupāda: Sab janta Lawrence. (The all*-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence . . . *Dr. Singh: (laughs) Sab janta Lawrence. (The all*-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) Prabhupāda: Wo sab janta hai. (He knows everything.) Dr. Singh: (laughs) Pani tray le ao. (Please bring the tray of water.) Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence. Sab kuch janta hai. (They know everything.) Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ek hi shiksha nayi baatein khatam ho jati hai. (The same old conceptions finish any scope for advanced understanding.) Prabhupāda: That is true. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why the boys . . . (indistinct) . . . Europe. Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly. Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are mūḍhas . Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Mūḍha , they are rascals. Dr. Singh: (indistinct Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called, "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the *Bhāgavatam* ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian woman: See these two little things standing here. Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back. *Dr. Singh: Achha . . . he got them back, Guru*-dakṣiṇā . The guru asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can . . ." "Oh, yes." Guru-dakṣiṇā . That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master. Malatī: Sāndīpani Muni has . . . Dr. Singh: Sāndīpani. Malatī: He had sons? Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give guru*-dakṣiṇā . Whatever he wants, you must give. Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Fantastic story. Prabhupāda: That, "Give your finger just to keep the . . . (indistinct) . . ." Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya . That is very unfair. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that, "He is a śūdra . He'll miss it." Dr. Singh: So therefore he . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Dronachariya. *Prabhupāda: Exactly. Just like śūdra . In Western countries, they are all śūdras . They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for . . . (indistinct) . . . simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra . And brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , especially kṣatriya , as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu*-yajña . Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, may I know, what is called, Bhīṣmadeva, the śūdras should be given money so that can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. Bandorer golay muktor mala. (The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace.) Dr. Singh: So they call . . . Prabhupāda: The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī. Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . gave Sita Devi gave, gave her . . . "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, chasa, a cultivator, what does he know about the taste of the liquor? These are very instructive. Śyāmasundara: The cultivator? Prabhupāda: Cultivator . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor. Prabhupāda: If you give him a bottle of John Walker . . . Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? "What is it?" English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker . . ."? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa: *That is perfection. For Kṛṣṇa. Dedicate life for Kṛṣṇa. So, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ (SB 10.14.3): keep in your position, but serve for Kṛṣṇa. That Mr. Pante is also very nice boy . . . many talking . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much. He believes us, he does sūrya*-namaskāra and things of that nature. Prabhupāda: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot. Dr. Singh: Why can he not? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him. Prabhupāda: So anyway, give us some place in London. Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely. Śyāmasundara: That letter did you se . . . which address did you send that to? Dr. Singh: I don't really know, but I've sent it. You . . . when are you going? Who is going? None of you are going. Śyāmasundara: We're not going. I was thinking, though, if you have a carbon copy, we could send it to my Godbrothers who are going to meet with him. Dr. Singh: Today is already the 26th . . . 25th . . . 26th. What is it today? Gurudāsa: Tomorrow's the 26th. Śyāmasundara: The meeting's on the 30th. Dr. Singh: It will never get there. It will take . . . (indistinct) English woman: Sometimes the letters only take three days. Sometimes they take a week. Malatī: Five days or a week. Prabhupāda: Generally takes three days by aeroplane. Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans. Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night. Dr. Singh: You have a temple? Śyāmasundara: Oh, a very big temple. Mālatī: But it's not . . . every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny. Prabhupāda: Next time when you go to London . . . Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center. Śyāmasundara: Every city. Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And our men are . . . (indistinct) . . . actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now? Prabhupāda: At least three months. Dr. Singh: Three months. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. I came last year . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Seventy. Dr. Singh: Seventy. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so I went back again to Los Angeles in . . . (indistinct) . . . in June. Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles. Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow? Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have, I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow. Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square. *Śyāmasundara: Ratha*-yātrā, saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: You have been in Moscow? Dr. Singh: Yes. Prabhupāda: I was staying in that National Hotel. Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- November 25, 1971, Delhi Dr. Singh: . . . śarīra . *Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke ( SB 10.84.13) . . . (indistinct) . . . everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs , I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to *Vedas* . But all the . . . anywhere we go, material . . . these people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. *Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away. Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the *Upaniṣads* , when they talk of this path . . . (indistinct) . . . yoga agni mayam shariram . Nahi, unko kehna tha. (No, this is what he meant to say.) So if you . . . what does that mean? Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam . Dr. Singh: Yoga agni māyām śarīraram . *Prabhupāda: Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . Dr. Singh: Coming now. This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Cinmaya , cinmaya-śarīra we have got. In the Padma Purāṇa , the length and breadth of this cinmaya-śarīra is given—one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Dr. Singh: This is my wife. Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you? Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. Star one English friend of ours who is out . . . who is . . . Prabhupāda: (to lady) So why are you sitting down? Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that: (indistinct) . . . because here everyone is puffed up. Dr. Singh: Ahaṅkāra . *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā . (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the Bible also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find. Devotee: Inherit the earth. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth." *Prabhupāda: So this is . . . because our puffed*-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore brahma-bhūtaḥ , those who are self-realized, they are prasannātmā . Any condition of life they are happy, jolly. Dr. Singh: So Swāmījī, if er . . . if Īśa is everywhere, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), then surely He is in the body also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of of em, of em . . . care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to . . . the body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given (up) everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything. Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Prabhupāda: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). *Dr. Singh: (chuckles) They simply take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died. Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: (laughs) Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright*-faced. *Dr. Singh: Bright*-faced. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: Ujjwala*-mukha . *Prabhupāda: Yes, ujjwala*-mukha . And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that, "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in . . . gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that, "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that. Another priest, Christian priest, in New York . . . in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that, "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to . . . Dr. Singh: Would you have . . . (indistinct) . . .? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with. Prabhupāda: One glass of water will be fine. Dr. Singh: Pani de dijiye, unko de dijiye. (Give it to him, give it to him.) Only water? Only water, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: We can take. What is it? Dr. Singh: Inko do, jo bhi inko dena ho. (Give it to him, whatever you have.) Prabhupāda: Kya chiz hai? (What is this?) Dr. Singh: Kuch hai, ye anna jaisa hai. (aside) Ye rehne do, ye kyu . . . (indistinct) . . . unki habit nahi. (It is similar to rice. (aside) Just leave it, why did you . . . not in his habit.) We have made a truly sattvic bhojana today, so there is no problem. Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya . (Dr. Singh laughs) Rājarṣi . Dr. Singh: Rajarshi to kya hai lekin ye Raghuvamsha ka hai avashya. (I don't know if I am a rājarṣi or not, but surely we are from Raghuvaṁśa.) *Prabhupāda: Nahi, ap hi ka hai. (No, you definitely belong to their lineage.) Your generation are kṣatriya . Actually we give stress in our civilization, brahmin and kṣatriya . Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Yehi to hum log ka durbhagya ho gaya. (This is our great misfortune.) We have lost our kṣatriyas , we have lost our . . . Dr. Singh: Kshatra bal nahi raha, kshatra dharma nahi raha. ( Kṣatriyas don't possess any prowess now, nor do they have the kṣatriya religiosity.) Prabhupāda: To isliye . . . (That's why . . .) the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms. Dr. Singh: And also the . . . Prabhupāda: And the brahmins the head. Dr. Singh: But in the *Upaniṣads* , as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember? Indian man: Fourth Chapter of *Gītā* . . . (indistinct) . . . Fourth Chapter of *Gītā* . . . (indistinct) . . . the knowledge is being handed over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Handed down. *Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect. Dr. Singh: Sretaketu also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity. Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine. Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: I want to revive brahminism , kṣatriya*-ism . Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma . Dharma means this classification dharma . There are two kinds of dharmas . One, material dharma , and another, spiritual dharma . Actually, dharma means spiritual. *But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma , we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). *Dr. Singh: Guṇa*-karma vibhādayo . Prabhupāda: So the brahmin's dharma , the kṣatriya's dharma , the vaiśya's dharma and the śūdra's dharma . Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be . . . he must have the knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas . *Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That . . . that is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas . Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā . The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva , raja , tama guṇa . And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya , nirguṇa . Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ . Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: So two sides we are trying to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is on the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division— brahmin , kṣatriya , vaisya , śūdra . Those who are purely in goodness, they are brahmin . Next to that, passion, kṣatriya . And next to that, vaiśya , mixture. And next to that, śūdra . And next to that, caṇḍāla . Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have for example . . . he's got to have his . . . he's got to have knowledge of the dharma . He's got to have the capacity to act . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: . . . of the kṣatriya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and Nipuṇāta . . . (perfect skills . . .) for example, and service. Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that, that . . . Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age? Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if, if you are a kṣatriya , you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field. Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally, which is equally (laughs) hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact. Prabhupāda: Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there . . . someone must be there manager. So this, this division of the society . . . Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head. Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is wanted. Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be in brahmin or either you may be kṣatriya , either you may be vaiśya or śūdra , it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ . Vibhāgaśa is accepted, varna āśrama . Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya . Now everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya , you remain brahmin , you remain śūdra , it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya . He was a fighter; *he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said: "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was . . . he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not . . . I am . . ." Yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . *Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-sammūḍha-cetāḥ . *Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad*-gītā . So he remained a kṣatriya . But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya , brahmin , kṣatriya . It doesn't matter. Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied. Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by . . . by connecting. *Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). So we are parts and . . . if we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy. Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma . Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body . . . suppose I want to scratch here; *a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased. Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life? Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take . . . just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . that is the definition of bhakti . Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ , that is bhakti . Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he must have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification? Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification . . . love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification? *Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170): when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated, "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ , that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are? Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) śivo 'ham, śivo . . . Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty? *Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am śivo 'ham , or brahmāsmi , or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. Tat*-paratvena nirmalam . *When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti . So therefore bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti , and this is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, then there is already division: an intelligent class of men, the administrator. Just like not all, everyone, is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I'll not interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of man, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or home minister, he has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore that is required. Then, hah . . . tejaḥ . First, first these administrators must be tejasvī . . . īśvara bhāva . . . dānam yūdhe cāpy apalāyanam (BG 18.43). Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch, and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya . The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained, as in business we give training. *Similarly, those who are going to take up, take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brahmins , the śāstra , sādhu-śāstra*-guru . And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there; simply the training is not there. Therefore there is chaos. Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there. Prabhupāda: No, not so. Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Singh: If you read Chanakya niti and all. Prabhupāda: Chanakya niti , it is of course about some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we have . . . we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed. Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war. *Prabhupāda: That, that's all right. Er, er . . . recorded means. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world . . . because India, or Bhārata*-varṣa , means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. *This, this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa . Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa . Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata . . . you know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa . And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this first to last, then gradually . . . why? The culture was lost. The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he is desiring, "With this sword I shall kill you." So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā . Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem? (break) These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: *Another, in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : *We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore we created all these things. Who, whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ : "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni , he can come to Me." That, what is not the duty of those who are elevated as brahmin and kṣatriya , to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni , he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *But that we did not do. We simply hated. Now one, at the . . . during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the . . . (indistinct) . . . put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Now, whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only . . . Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world? Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united? Dr. Singh: But should one teach the world to become united . . . (indistinct) . . . with Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . ." Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later. Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after? Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the first priority? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Singh: First priority is to try . . . (break) . . . function. Prabhupāda: What, what do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you. Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brahmin class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is a intelligent class of men? Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work. Prabhupāda: Everyone is working. Dr. Singh: They can do . . . they can be very good worker. Prabhupāda: When your brain . . . brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work. Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone. Dr. Singh: They can fight also. Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that, "Here is a enemy," so hand immediately raised. Brain gives direction that, "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya . And the belly supplies food in that, vaiśya . And the legs, śūdra , carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be a intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. *So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate , he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). *That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. Ya eṣāṁ ātma*-bhuvam īśvaram na bhajanty abhijānanti sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 11.5.3) sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ . Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brahmin , kṣatriyas , they have fallen down. Brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , everyone. Sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ . Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy? *Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. Even this a material ecstacy . . . that ecstacy, spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā , when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Singh: I don't know whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight. Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it . . . (indistinct) . . . you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought. Prabhupāda: That everything was done by Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Singh: When He went as a duta (messenger). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; *it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad*-gītā . And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that, "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin (BG 11.33). So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative. Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Arjuna. Prabhupāda: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book. Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Dr. Singh: This one? Oh! Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture. Śyāmasundara: Your secretary gave it to us. Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books. Prabhupāda: So some of the points some of the points . . . what was the points? Śyāmasundara: The . . . that every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we are doing. Dr. Singh: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmins only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmins. Dr. Singh: All brāhmaṇas . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) *Prabhupāda: It was not? Now we are creating brahmins from America, from Australia. Is it not re*-creation of . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism. Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation. Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brahmins , kṣatriyas —especially brahmin —from every community. Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kīrtana tonight? What is the program, or do we . . . Śyāmasundara: As you wish. Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes, kīrtana . Dr. Singh: Shall I, before dinner, before food. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement. Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Yes. We can answer any philosophy. Devotee: We have a . . . Prabhupāda: Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ , kecit . . . there is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . Just like there is fog—if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way . . . *Dr. Singh: Anti*-pollution. Prabhupāda: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal. (aside) All right, have some kīrtana . I think in 1925 I went to Kashmir. Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: What is your birthday? Dr. Singh: '31, 1931. (laughs) Prabhupāda: And your father's? Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away. Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896. Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? (to Mālatī) What do you want? A piece of paper? Devotee: She wants to write the words of the mantra on a piece of paper. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa? (indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words) Write. Write. Give her. (break) Mālatī: . . . photographs from India of the actual . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: . . . Harrison. So our devotees, they . . . (indistinct) . . . that singer of the Beatles. Prabhupāda: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars. Dr. Singh: Did he? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . "Words from Apple." Prabhupāda: This boy contacted, Śyāmasundara . . . (indistinct) . . . find out. Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . (reading) "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, Nam bade bade sundar apne chune hai. (You have selected very beautiful big big names.) (laughs), Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti? Mālatī: No, she's on her way. Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralī dāsa . . . Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all of them work for this movement. Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure. Śyāmasundara: In the beginning of this chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . you talked about men who lead . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). That is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is scientific. Our śreṣṭha jan (those who are leading us) has gone to hell. How the people will come to . . . (indistinct) . . . they don't care for God. Godless existence . . . (indistinct) . . . by the grace of Kṛṣṇa we are . . . humanity . . . trying to be . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . difficult to do but I, one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya. Prabhupāda: I said that our government should give me facility for . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha though I am not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: what I am not. Dr. Singh: (laughs) a cadre, a cadre . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What, what fault I have? Dr. Singh: (laughs) Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India. Prabhupāda: Does he, does he move better than me or less? Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time—he's based in India. Prabhupāda: Because he has no followers. (laughter) Nobody will give him place. Dr. Singh: Even I can give him . . . (indistinct) . . . I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses. Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses. Prabhupāda: So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified? Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it? Prabhupāda: Not a single farthing. Why this . . . Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress. Prabhupāda: Rather they, they, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away." Dr. Singh: Do they say that? Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know, but that is their minor point. Immediately that . . . (indistinct) . . . said . . . what is that? "No foreigner can stay there?" Śyāmasundara: In Nadia. Prabhupāda: Nadia. I do not know whether it is there. So we are being indirectly disturbed. Dr. Singh: That must be because this, got trouble there, and the foreigners . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But what must they . . . they should, government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. It's so unfortunate. Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets come. (laughs) They are always respected more abroad. Mālatī: But the point is, we are . . . he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country. Prabhupāda: Recently one paper has remarked that, "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that. Dr. Singh: Here? Prabhupāda: No. Where it is? Mālatī: Boston. Prabhupāda: Boston. Also in Buffalo. Mālatī: Buffalo, yes. Śyāmasundara: He was speaking in reference to the Pope. The Pope didn't acknowledge your letter to him. Dr. Singh: Did it or did? Śyāmasundara: Did not. Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? (laughs) Prabhupāda: I may not think that, but I wanted to see. He is a head of a very great religion, so I want to bring cooperation, I offered my cooperation and he sided me, so I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age different means and everything. Handicap. Still I am . . . *Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian*-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples? Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians. Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from . . . Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside." Dr. Singh: That is the . . . I think you're quite right, due to that is what they do. Prabhupāda: They have learned everything. Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not? *Prabhupāda: Sab janta Lawrence. (The all*-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence . . . *Dr. Singh: (laughs) Sab janta Lawrence. (The all*-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) Prabhupāda: Wo sab janta hai. (He knows everything.) Dr. Singh: (laughs) Pani tray le ao. (Please bring the tray of water.) Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence. Sab kuch janta hai. (They know everything.) Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ek hi shiksha nayi baatein khatam ho jati hai. (The same old conceptions finish any scope for advanced understanding.) Prabhupāda: That is true. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why the boys . . . (indistinct) . . . Europe. Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly. Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are mūḍhas . Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Mūḍha , they are rascals. Dr. Singh: (indistinct Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called, "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the *Bhāgavatam* ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian woman: See these two little things standing here. Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back. *Dr. Singh: Achha . . . he got them back, Guru*-dakṣiṇā . The guru asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can . . ." "Oh, yes." Guru-dakṣiṇā . That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master. Malatī: Sāndīpani Muni has . . . Dr. Singh: Sāndīpani. Malatī: He had sons? Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give guru*-dakṣiṇā . Whatever he wants, you must give. Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Fantastic story. Prabhupāda: That, "Give your finger just to keep the . . . (indistinct) . . ." Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya . That is very unfair. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that, "He is a śūdra . He'll miss it." Dr. Singh: So therefore he . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Dronachariya. *Prabhupāda: Exactly. Just like śūdra . In Western countries, they are all śūdras . They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for . . . (indistinct) . . . simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra . And brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , especially kṣatriya , as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu*-yajña . Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, may I know, what is called, Bhīṣmadeva, the śūdras should be given money so that can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. Bandorer golay muktor mala. (The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace.) Dr. Singh: So they call . . . Prabhupāda: The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī. Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . gave Sita Devi gave, gave her . . . "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, chasa, a cultivator, what does he know about the taste of the liquor? These are very instructive. Śyāmasundara: The cultivator? Prabhupāda: Cultivator . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor. Prabhupāda: If you give him a bottle of John Walker . . . Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? "What is it?" English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker . . ."? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa: *That is perfection. For Kṛṣṇa. Dedicate life for Kṛṣṇa. So, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ (SB 10.14.3): keep in your position, but serve for Kṛṣṇa. That Mr. Pante is also very nice boy . . . many talking . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much. He believes us, he does sūrya*-namaskāra and things of that nature. Prabhupāda: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot. Dr. Singh: Why can he not? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him. Prabhupāda: So anyway, give us some place in London. Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely. Śyāmasundara: That letter did you se . . . which address did you send that to? Dr. Singh: I don't really know, but I've sent it. You . . . when are you going? Who is going? None of you are going. Śyāmasundara: We're not going. I was thinking, though, if you have a carbon copy, we could send it to my Godbrothers who are going to meet with him. Dr. Singh: Today is already the 26th . . . 25th . . . 26th. What is it today? Gurudāsa: Tomorrow's the 26th. Śyāmasundara: The meeting's on the 30th. Dr. Singh: It will never get there. It will take . . . (indistinct) English woman: Sometimes the letters only take three days. Sometimes they take a week. Malatī: Five days or a week. Prabhupāda: Generally takes three days by aeroplane. Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans. Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night. Dr. Singh: You have a temple? Śyāmasundara: Oh, a very big temple. Mālatī: But it's not . . . every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny. Prabhupāda: Next time when you go to London . . . Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center. Śyāmasundara: Every city. Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And our men are . . . (indistinct) . . . actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now? Prabhupāda: At least three months. Dr. Singh: Three months. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. I came last year . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Seventy. Dr. Singh: Seventy. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so I went back again to Los Angeles in . . . (indistinct) . . . in June. Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles. Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow? Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have, I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow. Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square. *Śyāmasundara: Ratha*-yātrā, saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: You have been in Moscow? Dr. Singh: Yes. Prabhupāda: I was staying in that National Hotel. Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 3, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: Aayiye, aayiye. Baitho, idhar baitho. (Please come. Sit down, sit here.) Guest: Nahi, theek hai ji. (No, it's alright.) (break) Devotee: He has been very helpful on . . . (indistinct) . . . program. Viṣala: Your Divine Grace . . . (indistinct) . . . as long as one is seeking out a bona fide . . . unless one is seeking out a bona fide representative of God, is it true that he has no discrimination? Prabhupāda: Yes. . . . (indistinct) Viṣala: He has no discrimination? Devotee: Yes. No discrimination. Prabhupāda: No. He must find out a bona fide representative of God. He must be. If you go to purchase something in the market, we must use our senses to find out. Why not use our . . . (indistinct) . . .? Viṣala: (indistinct) . . . I was thinking that what it means is if anyone does not have a bona fide representative of God, is it true that he doesn’t have the discrimination, who is unfortunate enough not to have a bona fide representative of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you get bona fide representative, spiritual master, and if you follow instructions by him, your advance is guaranteed. Yasya prasādad bhāgavata (Śrī Gurv*-aṣṭaka 8). So bona fide spiritual master means if he is satisfied, then Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then you are successful. Because after all, we have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa comes Himself; *He leaves His instruction, the Bhagavad*-gītā . He sends His representatives, He comes as a devotee. He is trying to take us back to home, back to Godhead, in so many ways. You have to take opportunity. That is His . . . Guest: So if Your Holiness has time, I would like to . . . if Your Holiness . . . (indistinct) . . . I can come to take Your Holiness, Gurudāsa and others, tomorrow in the morning. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning? What time? Guest: Any time that is convenient. (end of underneath conversation) Devotee (2): This tendency, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . this tendency of material enviousness, this is also a serious impediment in spiritual life—to become envious of our Godbrothers? Or spiritual . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: This enviousness. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is aparādha , greatest offense. That offense may kill your consciousness. That is the first offense, to become envious. The first offense. (break) Kṛṣṇa never tolerates enviousness of a devotee. He can tolerate enviousness of Kṛṣṇa, but He can never tolerate enviousness of a devotee. Woman devotee: We have no proper behavior if we are envious of one another, because we are independent of one another. We are dependent on Kṛṣṇa, but we're not dependent on any other living entity . . . (indistinct) . . . it doesn't mean . . . we should not be envious of one another . . . (indistinct) . . . we should cooperate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cooperate. Therefore we are addressing another devotee as prabhu . Prabhu means "master." So if a devotee, if I think, "You are my prabhu ," and if we think, "I am your master," then where is? . . . (indistinct) . . . enviousness. But we think, "I am master." We think we are master. No. Master must be . . . (indistinct) . . . just like Pakistan and India, both of them are thinking master, "I am master"—therefore fighting. But Vaikuṇṭha policy is not master: I am servant, I am your servant. Just to . . . (break) . . . and if you think, "No, I am your servant," why should I order you? But if I think, "I am master, I shall order you." But the man who receives order, he thinks that "Why shall I take order? I am master." You see? So we should not try to become master; we should become servant and teach others how an ideal servant can serve. That is Vaiṣṇava. If I want to become master, then that is material. Everyone is material, wanting to become master. There is dissension, enviousness. But the Vaikuṇṭha party is quite different. Here, if you advance more than me, I become envious: "Oh." But in Vaikuṇṭha party there is competition: if you advance, then I should say: "Oh, how nice he is. He is able to serve Kṛṣṇa so nicely. I could not do so, so I must follow him." This is Vaikuṇṭha. In the material world it is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. Oh, let me cut him." This is material. *So we have to be trained not as master—as servant. That is perfect. Gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ ( CC Madhya 13.80): servant of the servant of the servant of the servant. Material world: master of the master of the master of the master. And ultimately, "I am God." (devotees laugh) This is the general experience. This is another material thing. When he says that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , that is another māyā . So māyā is working in so many different ways. The only escape is to catch Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, hold tightly. ( kīrtana ) We have to . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 3, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: Aayiye, aayiye. Baitho, idhar baitho. (Please come. Sit down, sit here.) Guest: Nahi, theek hai ji. (No, it's alright.) (break) Devotee: He has been very helpful on . . . (indistinct) . . . program. Viṣala: Your Divine Grace . . . (indistinct) . . . as long as one is seeking out a bona fide . . . unless one is seeking out a bona fide representative of God, is it true that he has no discrimination? Prabhupāda: Yes. . . . (indistinct) Viṣala: He has no discrimination? Devotee: Yes. No discrimination. Prabhupāda: No. He must find out a bona fide representative of God. He must be. If you go to purchase something in the market, we must use our senses to find out. Why not use our . . . (indistinct) . . .? Viṣala: (indistinct) . . . I was thinking that what it means is if anyone does not have a bona fide representative of God, is it true that he doesn’t have the discrimination, who is unfortunate enough not to have a bona fide representative of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you get bona fide representative, spiritual master, and if you follow instructions by him, your advance is guaranteed. Yasya prasādad bhāgavata (Śrī Gurv*-aṣṭaka 8). So bona fide spiritual master means if he is satisfied, then Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then you are successful. Because after all, we have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa comes Himself; *He leaves His instruction, the Bhagavad*-gītā . He sends His representatives, He comes as a devotee. He is trying to take us back to home, back to Godhead, in so many ways. You have to take opportunity. That is His . . . Guest: So if Your Holiness has time, I would like to . . . if Your Holiness . . . (indistinct) . . . I can come to take Your Holiness, Gurudāsa and others, tomorrow in the morning. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning? What time? Guest: Any time that is convenient. (end of underneath conversation) Devotee (2): This tendency, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . this tendency of material enviousness, this is also a serious impediment in spiritual life—to become envious of our Godbrothers? Or spiritual . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: This enviousness. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is aparādha , greatest offense. That offense may kill your consciousness. That is the first offense, to become envious. The first offense. (break) Kṛṣṇa never tolerates enviousness of a devotee. He can tolerate enviousness of Kṛṣṇa, but He can never tolerate enviousness of a devotee. Woman devotee: We have no proper behavior if we are envious of one another, because we are independent of one another. We are dependent on Kṛṣṇa, but we're not dependent on any other living entity . . . (indistinct) . . . it doesn't mean . . . we should not be envious of one another . . . (indistinct) . . . we should cooperate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cooperate. Therefore we are addressing another devotee as prabhu . Prabhu means "master." So if a devotee, if I think, "You are my prabhu ," and if we think, "I am your master," then where is? . . . (indistinct) . . . enviousness. But we think, "I am master." We think we are master. No. Master must be . . . (indistinct) . . . just like Pakistan and India, both of them are thinking master, "I am master"—therefore fighting. But Vaikuṇṭha policy is not master: I am servant, I am your servant. Just to . . . (break) . . . and if you think, "No, I am your servant," why should I order you? But if I think, "I am master, I shall order you." But the man who receives order, he thinks that "Why shall I take order? I am master." You see? So we should not try to become master; we should become servant and teach others how an ideal servant can serve. That is Vaiṣṇava. If I want to become master, then that is material. Everyone is material, wanting to become master. There is dissension, enviousness. But the Vaikuṇṭha party is quite different. Here, if you advance more than me, I become envious: "Oh." But in Vaikuṇṭha party there is competition: if you advance, then I should say: "Oh, how nice he is. He is able to serve Kṛṣṇa so nicely. I could not do so, so I must follow him." This is Vaikuṇṭha. In the material world it is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. Oh, let me cut him." This is material. *So we have to be trained not as master—as servant. That is perfect. Gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ ( CC Madhya 13.80): servant of the servant of the servant of the servant. Material world: master of the master of the master of the master. And ultimately, "I am God." (devotees laugh) This is the general experience. This is another material thing. When he says that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , that is another māyā . So māyā is working in so many different ways. The only escape is to catch Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, hold tightly. ( kīrtana ) We have to . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 4, 1971, Delhi *Prabhupāda: These, they do not leave the control. They sell things, and they catch some leaders, they take loan from them, and they take it, and eighty percent for themselves and twenty percent for so on. This is going on, the so*-called independent country. In India also, that is being done. America is loaning, and these, ah, those who are in charge of the government, they're spending money in their way . . . (break) . . . purchasing weapons from them. Actually, the development, and these Britishers and Americans, they're constantly engaging Pakistan in fighting spirit and supplying them ammunition and supplying here. Their business is going on, taking loan from them and paying to them, and they remain debtor perpetually. You give me money, purchase from me, and in books you are debtor. I take your money by supplying some goods. So my money comes back, and you remain a debtor in the book, perpetually. (guest laughs) Is it not? Guest: Yes. Eighty percent rupee belong to the States, United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. Guest: The public did the dee . . . the date, 3-04-80. The interest is calculated every fortnight. So though it is two or three percent, but it works out about eighteen percent in a year. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: Oh. *Guest: You see, it's a sort of, I don't know how to call it. It's . . . not only compound interest, but super*-compound interest. Every fifteen days or a month something is added to the capital. So things are . . . but I think Kṛṣṇa consciousness is better for them as well as for us. (laughs). So I will take leave and come tomorrow at four o'clock. Hmm? Dalmiyaji . . . dalmiyaji has been here? Jai Dayal Dalmiyaji? Gurudāsa: Not recently. Guest: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Not recently. Prabhupāda: I have come just yesterday night, last night. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Give him that prasādam . Guest: I'll come . . . Prabhupāda: All right. Guest: Kṛṣṇa . . . how many of you . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . our activities. But . . . (break) *Gurudāsa: Even the security governments know us. One time there was this Mr. Fugarty from Florida. Remember, Mahā*-puruṣa went to see him? First Dayā . . . Prabhupāda: Fugarty, yes, I know. Gurudāsa: Dayānanda and Nandarāṇī went, and they knew him? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Fugarty. Yes. Gurudāsa: So he came to London, and he wanted to meet with us. But he didn't know our address, so he looked in the Central Intelligence files, and they had our address, and he came to see us. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was interested in our . . . Gurudāsa: He was cryptologist, code . . . code breaker, for the government. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurudāsa: When secret codes would come in, he would decode them by formula. That was his job. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Devotee: Yes. Gurudāsa: Just like Sans . . . (break) . . . so he was doing that job. (break) Prabhupāda: But . . . do it . . . (indistinct) . . . with enthusiasm. In this way simply this advertisement goes out, village to village. And at least, you become popular in the world. Gurudāsa: Nagarādi grāma . Prabhupāda: Nagarādi grāma . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should leave at least one devotee in each village. Gurudāsa: If there was time . . . Prabhupāda: But difficulty is you do not know the local language. Gurudāsa: Hmm. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was here, there was one language? Because the . . . Prabhupāda: No, this Hare Kṛṣṇa language will be understood by everyone. There was one language, Sanskrit, amongst the learned. Still, amongst the learned gentlemen you can speak in English. Similarly, in India the pand . . . learned class language was Sanskrit, all over India. Anywhere you go you can talk with them, Sanskrit. Gurudāsa: Hah. Prabhupāda: We are not . . . learned circles, they are not concerned with the mass of people. They meet with learned circles. When learned circles meet, everyone comes. *Gurudāsa: There was that nice story, that one person was coming to defeat one of the associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu—it was Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. So his disciples, he said: "If they want me to leave, I will leave." So his disciples posed as a cobbler and a betel*-seller, and when they came to . . . a potter and a betel-seller. When they came to buy betel they spoke Sanskrit. And they thought, "Oh, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is teaching the common betel-seller Sanskrit, then how can we compare with this?" It's a very nice story. (break) Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Then give another one. Gurudāsa: Paṇḍita Nārāyaṇa dāsa came? Prabhupāda: And whatever things we require, you give him a list and they'll supply. So if you cook, that's all right; otherwise they have got their cooks. So take that advantage. You talked with Nārāyaṇa dāsa? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But at that time he did not give us some facility. Gurudāsa: At that time he was sick in bed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurudāsa: Blood pressure, high. So he said: "Arrange with these other people, then I will come and see that it is all right." Prabhupāda: Oh. So when he came, he was informed that I had left. So somebody said: "No, he's upstairs," and he came to see me. (Gurudāsa laughs) He's my old friend. He knows me. Gurudāsa: He eh . . . he was on the League of Devotees? Yes? Prabhupāda: Not League of, but he knew me when I was there. Wherever my books were published, he came to purchase one. Gurudāsa: I spoke to them about putting some books in that shelf, they said yes. Prabhupāda: Not shelf, they purchase. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ask them to purchase. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa dāsa's son? Gurudāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's the secretary . . . (break) . . . but they are putting . . . (break) . . . yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham ( SB 7.9.45). People are not being taught the value of life. They only understand that polished hogs' life is to be . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . I have said that they're all sinful. Indirectly I have said. Factually. These, all the gosāis and bābājīs , they're actually sinful. And some of them are . . . those who are sincere, they're surprised, that "We are so long in Vṛndāvana, we cannot have saṅkīrtana like that. What is the reason?" They're searching. I told them, "You do not follow the rules and regulation." First of all I told them that, "You have no bona fide guru ." Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Or you're not bona fide student. There must be some defect. Anandamayi's men also came to invite me. Gurudāsa: This morning I met mātājī in Kamala Nagar. Prabhupāda: Oh, she's there? Gurudāsa: She was there, yes. Prabhupāda: She's . . . she has got some party for saṅkīrtana . Gurudāsa: Yes. She was in Calcutta, she told me. Prabhupāda: She has become something, incarnation, like that. That is his proposal. And she cries. Gurudāsa: She is not . . . (break) Prabhupāda: She is simply exploiting some women's sentiments, by giving them some deity and crying. And woman, they're simple. This way, she wanted to captivate donors. I know that. She has got some foolish woman, innocent woman. I say foolish, innocent. And naturally their husbands become inclined. Gurudāsa: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Actually she has no . . . she is not a preacher. She is a sentimental so*-called religionist among some women, and naturally their husbands . . . and she has no objection. Whatever you do, it doesn't matter. Therefore she is getting some followers, and posing herself as . . . she's opening hospital. That means she has no asset. Gurudāsa: True. Prabhupāda: We are going without opening hospital and school, rather challenging . . . (Gurudāsa laughs) . . . and diminishing everything, decrying. We do not agree with anyone, and still people like us. Is it not? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our first proposition is that, "You do not know anything." (Gurudāsa laughs) (laughs) And still they agree to come to us. Gurudāsa: Yes, Delhi is very successful. People were asking, asking, asking. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Walking in the morning, and someone came to me, "Ah, we thought that somewhere you have gone." When we have got regular center here, they should come. Gurudāsa: I mean they were asking questions like, "Who am I?" And er . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 4, 1971, Delhi *Prabhupāda: These, they do not leave the control. They sell things, and they catch some leaders, they take loan from them, and they take it, and eighty percent for themselves and twenty percent for so on. This is going on, the so*-called independent country. In India also, that is being done. America is loaning, and these, ah, those who are in charge of the government, they're spending money in their way . . . (break) . . . purchasing weapons from them. Actually, the development, and these Britishers and Americans, they're constantly engaging Pakistan in fighting spirit and supplying them ammunition and supplying here. Their business is going on, taking loan from them and paying to them, and they remain debtor perpetually. You give me money, purchase from me, and in books you are debtor. I take your money by supplying some goods. So my money comes back, and you remain a debtor in the book, perpetually. (guest laughs) Is it not? Guest: Yes. Eighty percent rupee belong to the States, United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. Guest: The public did the dee . . . the date, 3-04-80. The interest is calculated every fortnight. So though it is two or three percent, but it works out about eighteen percent in a year. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: Oh. *Guest: You see, it's a sort of, I don't know how to call it. It's . . . not only compound interest, but super*-compound interest. Every fifteen days or a month something is added to the capital. So things are . . . but I think Kṛṣṇa consciousness is better for them as well as for us. (laughs). So I will take leave and come tomorrow at four o'clock. Hmm? Dalmiyaji . . . dalmiyaji has been here? Jai Dayal Dalmiyaji? Gurudāsa: Not recently. Guest: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Not recently. Prabhupāda: I have come just yesterday night, last night. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Give him that prasādam . Guest: I'll come . . . Prabhupāda: All right. Guest: Kṛṣṇa . . . how many of you . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . our activities. But . . . (break) *Gurudāsa: Even the security governments know us. One time there was this Mr. Fugarty from Florida. Remember, Mahā*-puruṣa went to see him? First Dayā . . . Prabhupāda: Fugarty, yes, I know. Gurudāsa: Dayānanda and Nandarāṇī went, and they knew him? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Fugarty. Yes. Gurudāsa: So he came to London, and he wanted to meet with us. But he didn't know our address, so he looked in the Central Intelligence files, and they had our address, and he came to see us. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was interested in our . . . Gurudāsa: He was cryptologist, code . . . code breaker, for the government. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurudāsa: When secret codes would come in, he would decode them by formula. That was his job. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Devotee: Yes. Gurudāsa: Just like Sans . . . (break) . . . so he was doing that job. (break) Prabhupāda: But . . . do it . . . (indistinct) . . . with enthusiasm. In this way simply this advertisement goes out, village to village. And at least, you become popular in the world. Gurudāsa: Nagarādi grāma . Prabhupāda: Nagarādi grāma . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should leave at least one devotee in each village. Gurudāsa: If there was time . . . Prabhupāda: But difficulty is you do not know the local language. Gurudāsa: Hmm. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was here, there was one language? Because the . . . Prabhupāda: No, this Hare Kṛṣṇa language will be understood by everyone. There was one language, Sanskrit, amongst the learned. Still, amongst the learned gentlemen you can speak in English. Similarly, in India the pand . . . learned class language was Sanskrit, all over India. Anywhere you go you can talk with them, Sanskrit. Gurudāsa: Hah. Prabhupāda: We are not . . . learned circles, they are not concerned with the mass of people. They meet with learned circles. When learned circles meet, everyone comes. *Gurudāsa: There was that nice story, that one person was coming to defeat one of the associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu—it was Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. So his disciples, he said: "If they want me to leave, I will leave." So his disciples posed as a cobbler and a betel*-seller, and when they came to . . . a potter and a betel-seller. When they came to buy betel they spoke Sanskrit. And they thought, "Oh, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is teaching the common betel-seller Sanskrit, then how can we compare with this?" It's a very nice story. (break) Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Then give another one. Gurudāsa: Paṇḍita Nārāyaṇa dāsa came? Prabhupāda: And whatever things we require, you give him a list and they'll supply. So if you cook, that's all right; otherwise they have got their cooks. So take that advantage. You talked with Nārāyaṇa dāsa? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But at that time he did not give us some facility. Gurudāsa: At that time he was sick in bed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurudāsa: Blood pressure, high. So he said: "Arrange with these other people, then I will come and see that it is all right." Prabhupāda: Oh. So when he came, he was informed that I had left. So somebody said: "No, he's upstairs," and he came to see me. (Gurudāsa laughs) He's my old friend. He knows me. Gurudāsa: He eh . . . he was on the League of Devotees? Yes? Prabhupāda: Not League of, but he knew me when I was there. Wherever my books were published, he came to purchase one. Gurudāsa: I spoke to them about putting some books in that shelf, they said yes. Prabhupāda: Not shelf, they purchase. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ask them to purchase. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa dāsa's son? Gurudāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's the secretary . . . (break) . . . but they are putting . . . (break) . . . yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham ( SB 7.9.45). People are not being taught the value of life. They only understand that polished hogs' life is to be . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . I have said that they're all sinful. Indirectly I have said. Factually. These, all the gosāis and bābājīs , they're actually sinful. And some of them are . . . those who are sincere, they're surprised, that "We are so long in Vṛndāvana, we cannot have saṅkīrtana like that. What is the reason?" They're searching. I told them, "You do not follow the rules and regulation." First of all I told them that, "You have no bona fide guru ." Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Or you're not bona fide student. There must be some defect. Anandamayi's men also came to invite me. Gurudāsa: This morning I met mātājī in Kamala Nagar. Prabhupāda: Oh, she's there? Gurudāsa: She was there, yes. Prabhupāda: She's . . . she has got some party for saṅkīrtana . Gurudāsa: Yes. She was in Calcutta, she told me. Prabhupāda: She has become something, incarnation, like that. That is his proposal. And she cries. Gurudāsa: She is not . . . (break) Prabhupāda: She is simply exploiting some women's sentiments, by giving them some deity and crying. And woman, they're simple. This way, she wanted to captivate donors. I know that. She has got some foolish woman, innocent woman. I say foolish, innocent. And naturally their husbands become inclined. Gurudāsa: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Actually she has no . . . she is not a preacher. She is a sentimental so*-called religionist among some women, and naturally their husbands . . . and she has no objection. Whatever you do, it doesn't matter. Therefore she is getting some followers, and posing herself as . . . she's opening hospital. That means she has no asset. Gurudāsa: True. Prabhupāda: We are going without opening hospital and school, rather challenging . . . (Gurudāsa laughs) . . . and diminishing everything, decrying. We do not agree with anyone, and still people like us. Is it not? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our first proposition is that, "You do not know anything." (Gurudāsa laughs) (laughs) And still they agree to come to us. Gurudāsa: Yes, Delhi is very successful. People were asking, asking, asking. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Walking in the morning, and someone came to me, "Ah, we thought that somewhere you have gone." When we have got regular center here, they should come. Gurudāsa: I mean they were asking questions like, "Who am I?" And er . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 5, 1971, Delhi *Prabhupāda: . . . just like Arjuna said: "Yes." In the beginning he said: "No," then after learning Bhagavad*-gītā he said: "Yes." So we have to learn to say: "Yes" to Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Then you will be all right. If you say: "No," then it is māyā . But you have got the liberty to say: "Yes" or "No." . . . (indistinct) . . . if we say: "No," then it is our misfortune. If we say: "Yes," it is our fortune. *Icchā*-dveṣa. What is that verse? Sarge yānti parantapa . You have got icchā and dveṣa —two things there. Icchā means either you have desire for sense gratification or you can desire to serve Kṛṣṇa. And dveṣa means averse. You may not like to serve Kṛṣṇa, or you may not like to serve māyā . So we have come here to this material world by two propensities, icchā and dveṣa . Icchā , we wanted to enjoy this material world; and dveṣa , we try to avoid Kṛṣṇa. You see? (break) In this way you have come to this material world. Just like this Pakistan and Hindustan, fighting. Icchā . Icchā is that "I shall enjoy this land." So they're fighting. They do not know that after all, this land does not belong to any one of us; it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Why should we fight? Better you . . . let us be satisfied with whatever Kṛṣṇa has given. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore they are fighting. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa has made everything complete. *This planet is complete because it is created by Kṛṣṇa. So there cannot be any scarcity, any want. Everything is there. But we are desiring. Such simple dveṣa*-samutthena . Dveṣa . We want to enjoy more, therefore I envy you. This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called material . . . (indistinct) *And we are being carried by this different types of desire, and we are getting different types of bodies. Kṛṣṇa is kind, Lord. Oh, whatever we desire—He supplies it, "All right." Like . . . but ultimately He says sarva*-guhyatamaṁ (BG 18.64): "The most confidential part of knowledge I have given to you. Give up all this nonsense and surrender unto Me." So that is all. (cut) (end) Conversation -- December 5, 1971, Delhi *Prabhupāda: . . . just like Arjuna said: "Yes." In the beginning he said: "No," then after learning Bhagavad*-gītā he said: "Yes." So we have to learn to say: "Yes" to Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Then you will be all right. If you say: "No," then it is māyā . But you have got the liberty to say: "Yes" or "No." . . . (indistinct) . . . if we say: "No," then it is our misfortune. If we say: "Yes," it is our fortune. *Icchā*-dveṣa. What is that verse? Sarge yānti parantapa . You have got icchā and dveṣa —two things there. Icchā means either you have desire for sense gratification or you can desire to serve Kṛṣṇa. And dveṣa means averse. You may not like to serve Kṛṣṇa, or you may not like to serve māyā . So we have come here to this material world by two propensities, icchā and dveṣa . Icchā , we wanted to enjoy this material world; and dveṣa , we try to avoid Kṛṣṇa. You see? (break) In this way you have come to this material world. Just like this Pakistan and Hindustan, fighting. Icchā . Icchā is that "I shall enjoy this land." So they're fighting. They do not know that after all, this land does not belong to any one of us; it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Why should we fight? Better you . . . let us be satisfied with whatever Kṛṣṇa has given. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore they are fighting. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa has made everything complete. *This planet is complete because it is created by Kṛṣṇa. So there cannot be any scarcity, any want. Everything is there. But we are desiring. Such simple dveṣa*-samutthena . Dveṣa . We want to enjoy more, therefore I envy you. This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called material . . . (indistinct) *And we are being carried by this different types of desire, and we are getting different types of bodies. Kṛṣṇa is kind, Lord. Oh, whatever we desire—He supplies it, "All right." Like . . . but ultimately He says sarva*-guhyatamaṁ (BG 18.64): "The most confidential part of knowledge I have given to you. Give up all this nonsense and surrender unto Me." So that is all. (cut) (end) Conversation -- December 6, 1971, Delhi (Incomplete recording) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . do not try to understand by your rascaldom arguments. It's not possible, therefore it is acintya —take the version as it is stated in the *Vedas* . That is our position. *Pañca*-draviḍa: You also give the example about the frog in the well. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: And the scientists they have in some way they have measured what a frog sees. And they say that a frog cannot . . . the frog sees only movement. Like a frog's eyes are equipped that they can see the movement of a fly. If a fly goes past it's eye it sees that movement it catches the fly but anything larger than the movement of the fly a frog cannot see. Prabhupāda: Ah, suppose you are a frog then how you can understand God? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Cannot even understand man. Prabhupāda: Yes, so you are no better than a frog. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Everything is limited, this is my family, this is my country, this is my nation, so you cannot see anything more than there. Or you can see utmost this is your planet and beyond that you cannot see. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Even though . . . or even if you understand it, that is not possible. If you're individual but there are millions of universes you do not. What is going on in that universe. You do not know even what is going on in other planets. Just like you are seeing the planet sun god as sun planet. But you do not know how with such temperatures the living entities can live there. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But they live, Huh? They live. Why? What. Where is the difficulty to understand? Suppose if the sun planet is fire, this fire, so fire is one of the material elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo ( BG 7.4), analaḥ means fire. So bhūmir means that you see there are living entities on the lake, āpaḥ —water there are living entities in water. So why not living entities in the fire? This is also material. *Pañca*-draviḍa: When the, when the . . . Prabhupāda: And if you say that, "In fire everybody can live." No. Nobody can live you cannot say, it must be suitable for the fire, just like the fish live in the water. The body is suitable, similarly if you get a suitable body to live in the fire you can live. This is scientific, how you can conclude that there cannot be any living entities? Living entity identity is spiritual. Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi , nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23), living entity it is not burned. Neither it is moistened, neither is it dried up but this material action does not affect, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 4.3.16). This puruṣaḥ the living entity has nothing to do, it never mixes with the material element it is only body encagement. So if somebody has got earthly encagement, somebody has got waterly encagement, why not a fire encagement? Airy encagement. Ether, ethereal encagement they are different matters only. So these rascals they do not understand, we have to preach them. This is science, nature. This is understanding. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Sometimes we have experienced that some people are able to call spirits from the dead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: They are able to talk to people who have passed away they . . . Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense, we don't believe in this. *Pañca*-draviḍa: They cannot come. Prabhupāda: You won't find this anywhere in śāstras . *Pañca*-draviḍa: But the śāstras speak of ghosts. Prabhupāda: Ghost is another thing it has got no body. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But sometimes these mediums. Prabhupāda: He's subtle body, he's got subtle body not this gross body. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Sometimes these mediums they are able to contact ghosts and carry on conversations. Prabhupāda: So what is there? Very important. *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, but I was wondering is there anybody who has this power to be able to see the living entities in fire? Is there anybody in this world. Prabhupāda: What is the use if even you see? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hm. Prabhupāda: Simply knowing is sufficient, just like you see the water there is a living entity, everyone knows it. What more you want to know? And what benefit you will derive? *Pañca*-draviḍa: No benefit. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Pañca*-draviḍa: Just curious. *Prabhupāda: Every, sarva*-gataḥ (BG 2.24). The living entity can live anywhere either in the fire, or the air, the earth, or water, anywhere, sarva-gataḥ . Therefore it is known as the senses. How it is possible that you can see that the other living entities. The fish is living in the water but you cannot live. And the fish cannot live on the land that is the nature's creation a particular type of body lives in a particular place. What is the difficulty? The pig can eat stool but you cannot eat, so there are different varieties of living entities with varieties of material ingredients. And by God's arrangement and nature's arrangement they are there, so much you can do, what else you can do? Your power of knowledge is limited, how it is known, how it is living, how it is possible that is not difficult that is not possible. Neither you can know it, it is not possible. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But these things are known to the yogī's ? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Is a yogī able to perceive these things? Prabhupāda: Yes to some extent, just like we know to some extent, they know to some extent, everybody knows to some extent. (break). This knowledge you can take from any conversation . . . (indistinct) . . . all our senses are imperfect. The yogī can be able to know at once but your senses. It is not possible. It's an awkward condition, just like a pilot his knowledge is little more than you. He knows how to fly in the sky but that does not mean he has become perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . perfect knowledge. He may be a little advanced than you but that does not mean that he is perfect. (break) Degrees of knowledge, standard of knowledge, just like animals knowledge, dogs knowledge and your knowledge that is different. So your knowledge and the scientists knowledge that is different. That does not mean because one is advanced little than your knowledge he has become God. That is not, or he can show some magic therefore he has . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody can show better magic than God. This is Kṛṣṇa says: You know this verse? You have to read. These are better than knowledge. Devotee: What is the verse? Prabhupāda: Read it. Acyutānanda: "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." *Prabhupāda: Simply taking shelter of breathing of Mahā*-Viṣṇu all these big big Brahmās they live. So just imagine what He is. And Brahmā's life age you cannot, you cannot calculate one minute even. And all these Brahmās live only during the breathing period of Viṣṇu. When Viṣṇu breathes . . . (indistinct) . . . all the Brahmās come out and when He inhales all the Brahmā's go in. (break) . . . that they cannot understand the simple things. They are thinking always (break) Western civil. (break) then somebody picks up hundreds of thousands of . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not good. We are chanting to satisfy Kṛṣṇa not for economy. Gurudasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This should be the principle. Gurudasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If . . . it is just like music, that somebody is performing musical performances and it is . . . (indistinct) Gurudasa: I, I . . . Prabhupāda: I mean it is a defect. It is, the kīrtana is performed for satisfying Kṛṣṇa not for satisfying the public. This should be always remembered. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: One should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra in certain ecstasy so that immediately his connection with Kṛṣṇa is made. Not that I am chanting something nice music, so hearing my music the public will be satisfied. This is wrong conception. (break) It's for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Gurudasa: Hmm. It's not public sense gratification. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) what . . . (indistinct) . . . charges for a one page, go. Gurudasa: I'll find out. Prabhupāda: Yes these kind of advertisements are . . . therefore I say if you put this poster very high it will be on view. Gurudasa: Hmm. (break) yes. Prabhupāda: That is workers department. Know about the head. Gurudasa: Hmm. This Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: They will find out all these pitfalls, that is their business. Bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . crime they will find out what is the source of this. What is . . . (indistinct) . . . but Brahmā is called Dumbhi. Gurudasa: Dumbhi. Prabhupāda: Where is Dumbhi? This is the difference. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This class of men they have simply to find out God. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: All classes of living entities that is . . . (indistinct) . . . sadjana gunam sankirt .Those who are helpless men they see only what is required is nice cottage and those who are lower class of men they simply find cottage. The example is given (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . find that verse (break). Gurudasa: I already told him. Was it yesterday? Devotee: He knew it. Last night they knew that you. That it wasn't right. Prabhupāda: All this is done for musical performance. Devotee: Yes. (break) (end) Conversation -- December 6, 1971, Delhi (Incomplete recording) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . do not try to understand by your rascaldom arguments. It's not possible, therefore it is acintya —take the version as it is stated in the *Vedas* . That is our position. *Pañca*-draviḍa: You also give the example about the frog in the well. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: And the scientists they have in some way they have measured what a frog sees. And they say that a frog cannot . . . the frog sees only movement. Like a frog's eyes are equipped that they can see the movement of a fly. If a fly goes past it's eye it sees that movement it catches the fly but anything larger than the movement of the fly a frog cannot see. Prabhupāda: Ah, suppose you are a frog then how you can understand God? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Cannot even understand man. Prabhupāda: Yes, so you are no better than a frog. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Everything is limited, this is my family, this is my country, this is my nation, so you cannot see anything more than there. Or you can see utmost this is your planet and beyond that you cannot see. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Even though . . . or even if you understand it, that is not possible. If you're individual but there are millions of universes you do not. What is going on in that universe. You do not know even what is going on in other planets. Just like you are seeing the planet sun god as sun planet. But you do not know how with such temperatures the living entities can live there. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But they live, Huh? They live. Why? What. Where is the difficulty to understand? Suppose if the sun planet is fire, this fire, so fire is one of the material elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo ( BG 7.4), analaḥ means fire. So bhūmir means that you see there are living entities on the lake, āpaḥ —water there are living entities in water. So why not living entities in the fire? This is also material. *Pañca*-draviḍa: When the, when the . . . Prabhupāda: And if you say that, "In fire everybody can live." No. Nobody can live you cannot say, it must be suitable for the fire, just like the fish live in the water. The body is suitable, similarly if you get a suitable body to live in the fire you can live. This is scientific, how you can conclude that there cannot be any living entities? Living entity identity is spiritual. Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi , nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23), living entity it is not burned. Neither it is moistened, neither is it dried up but this material action does not affect, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 4.3.16). This puruṣaḥ the living entity has nothing to do, it never mixes with the material element it is only body encagement. So if somebody has got earthly encagement, somebody has got waterly encagement, why not a fire encagement? Airy encagement. Ether, ethereal encagement they are different matters only. So these rascals they do not understand, we have to preach them. This is science, nature. This is understanding. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Sometimes we have experienced that some people are able to call spirits from the dead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: They are able to talk to people who have passed away they . . . Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense, we don't believe in this. *Pañca*-draviḍa: They cannot come. Prabhupāda: You won't find this anywhere in śāstras . *Pañca*-draviḍa: But the śāstras speak of ghosts. Prabhupāda: Ghost is another thing it has got no body. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But sometimes these mediums. Prabhupāda: He's subtle body, he's got subtle body not this gross body. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Sometimes these mediums they are able to contact ghosts and carry on conversations. Prabhupāda: So what is there? Very important. *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, but I was wondering is there anybody who has this power to be able to see the living entities in fire? Is there anybody in this world. Prabhupāda: What is the use if even you see? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hm. Prabhupāda: Simply knowing is sufficient, just like you see the water there is a living entity, everyone knows it. What more you want to know? And what benefit you will derive? *Pañca*-draviḍa: No benefit. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Pañca*-draviḍa: Just curious. *Prabhupāda: Every, sarva*-gataḥ (BG 2.24). The living entity can live anywhere either in the fire, or the air, the earth, or water, anywhere, sarva-gataḥ . Therefore it is known as the senses. How it is possible that you can see that the other living entities. The fish is living in the water but you cannot live. And the fish cannot live on the land that is the nature's creation a particular type of body lives in a particular place. What is the difficulty? The pig can eat stool but you cannot eat, so there are different varieties of living entities with varieties of material ingredients. And by God's arrangement and nature's arrangement they are there, so much you can do, what else you can do? Your power of knowledge is limited, how it is known, how it is living, how it is possible that is not difficult that is not possible. Neither you can know it, it is not possible. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But these things are known to the yogī's ? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Is a yogī able to perceive these things? Prabhupāda: Yes to some extent, just like we know to some extent, they know to some extent, everybody knows to some extent. (break). This knowledge you can take from any conversation . . . (indistinct) . . . all our senses are imperfect. The yogī can be able to know at once but your senses. It is not possible. It's an awkward condition, just like a pilot his knowledge is little more than you. He knows how to fly in the sky but that does not mean he has become perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . perfect knowledge. He may be a little advanced than you but that does not mean that he is perfect. (break) Degrees of knowledge, standard of knowledge, just like animals knowledge, dogs knowledge and your knowledge that is different. So your knowledge and the scientists knowledge that is different. That does not mean because one is advanced little than your knowledge he has become God. That is not, or he can show some magic therefore he has . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody can show better magic than God. This is Kṛṣṇa says: You know this verse? You have to read. These are better than knowledge. Devotee: What is the verse? Prabhupāda: Read it. Acyutānanda: "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." *Prabhupāda: Simply taking shelter of breathing of Mahā*-Viṣṇu all these big big Brahmās they live. So just imagine what He is. And Brahmā's life age you cannot, you cannot calculate one minute even. And all these Brahmās live only during the breathing period of Viṣṇu. When Viṣṇu breathes . . . (indistinct) . . . all the Brahmās come out and when He inhales all the Brahmā's go in. (break) . . . that they cannot understand the simple things. They are thinking always (break) Western civil. (break) then somebody picks up hundreds of thousands of . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not good. We are chanting to satisfy Kṛṣṇa not for economy. Gurudasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This should be the principle. Gurudasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If . . . it is just like music, that somebody is performing musical performances and it is . . . (indistinct) Gurudasa: I, I . . . Prabhupāda: I mean it is a defect. It is, the kīrtana is performed for satisfying Kṛṣṇa not for satisfying the public. This should be always remembered. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: One should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra in certain ecstasy so that immediately his connection with Kṛṣṇa is made. Not that I am chanting something nice music, so hearing my music the public will be satisfied. This is wrong conception. (break) It's for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Gurudasa: Hmm. It's not public sense gratification. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) what . . . (indistinct) . . . charges for a one page, go. Gurudasa: I'll find out. Prabhupāda: Yes these kind of advertisements are . . . therefore I say if you put this poster very high it will be on view. Gurudasa: Hmm. (break) yes. Prabhupāda: That is workers department. Know about the head. Gurudasa: Hmm. This Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: They will find out all these pitfalls, that is their business. Bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . crime they will find out what is the source of this. What is . . . (indistinct) . . . but Brahmā is called Dumbhi. Gurudasa: Dumbhi. Prabhupāda: Where is Dumbhi? This is the difference. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This class of men they have simply to find out God. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: All classes of living entities that is . . . (indistinct) . . . sadjana gunam sankirt .Those who are helpless men they see only what is required is nice cottage and those who are lower class of men they simply find cottage. The example is given (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . find that verse (break). Gurudasa: I already told him. Was it yesterday? Devotee: He knew it. Last night they knew that you. That it wasn't right. Prabhupāda: All this is done for musical performance. Devotee: Yes. (break) (end) Conversation -- December 12, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: Hear and narrate. So, whatever you have heard, you can speak. (break) So in your country also they do not like this organized Christian religion. The difficulty is that either Hindu religion or Christian religion, religion is one. So what is that one religion nobody knows perfectly, and it was not presented, because they did not know what is religion. They are simply sticking to a particular kind of faith. Faith can be changed, faith can be given up, but real religion, that cannot be given up. It may be perverted. Real religion is to render service to the Supreme Lord. That cannot be changed. We are serving. If not to the Lord, we are serving māyā . But my that characteristic to serve is continued. So religion is presented simply on formulas and stereotyped ideas, but actual religion is this surrender. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ( SB 1.2.6). Bhakti means serving. Bhaja sevayā. Sevayā means serving. So religion means to serve the Supreme Lord. That is religion. Anything which has no such idea, that is not religion. Then again (you) have different types of religion, how far they are making progress with . . . on that ultimate goal, serving Kṛṣṇa? The more we advance, the more you become perfect, our real religious life becomes manifested. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *We say this is real religion. So what others have to say on this point? We say this is real religion. Bhāgavatam says . . . Bhāgavatam say, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2), "All cheating type of religion is thrown away." The cheating type of religion means which does not teach people how to serve the Lord. That is cheating. They take advantage of the religious feeling. They say: "I am God" or "I am everything". You serve me, you give your money unto me, I shall give you some material benefit, atonement. You have made your confess; you are sinful. Give me some money and you are excused." In this way religion is being perverted. Therefore, people are educated, (they) say: "What is this, religion?" They are becoming disgusted. But real religion is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness—surrender to Kṛṣṇa and you will become happy. So if we say that this is the real religion, is there anything wrong there? What possible protest they can offer when I say this is the religion? Śyāmasundara: Sometimes the Christians, they say that "According to our scriptures, that Christ is the only way. And unless one is worshiping God through Christ, that is heathenism." Prabhupāda: So what Christ teaches? Let us see what Christ teaches, then we can understand whether only through Christ we can . . . what is his teaching? Lady devotee (1): His first teaching is that "Love the Lord thy God with all they heart, with all thy might, with all thy . . . (indistinct) . . ." Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: He is also saying that, "I have no will but to do the will of my father, who has sent me," and that, "Everything I am saying is not my words but are the words of Him . . . (indistinct) . . ." Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That's nice. But they do not follow, and still they say they are Christians. They do not follow. Christ is all right. According to the time, according to the country, according to the atmosphere, he's all right, but the followers, they reject. Lady devotee (1): The followers try to make everyone fear God. Their whole aim is to make everyone so much afraid. They always try to instill fear in everyone that they speak to. "You are going to burn in hell." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the principle of eternal hell that is used to make people surrender: fear of eternal hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady devotee (1): Fear of God. *Prabhupāda: According to time . . . deśa*-kāla-pātra . That kind of forceful does not act very nicely. One should know the science, but the class of men to whom Jesus Christ said, they are not very much advanced. Under the circumstances, the fearfulness of hell is quite appropriate for them. *Actually, one who does not go back to home, back to Godhead, he is put into the hellish condition of life. That is fearful. But we are so blunt that we do not take care. It is fearful. Just like Prahlāda Maharaja said that, "Nṛsiṁha*-deva, I am not afraid of Your this fierceful feature, Narasiṁha, but I am very much afraid of this materialistic way of life." Saṁsāra. Saṁsāra means this material world. So it is actually very fearful. The whole atmosphere is fearful. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). To make adjustment, you have to accept something fearful. Just like this fight, "In future there may be some adjustment so that people may live peacefully. Therefore, we have to fight." This is also . . . the method is itself fearful. *To gain a position where there will be no fear, we have to accept a fearful method. So in the material world, whatever we think, they are not very happy proposition, that everything is fear. Karma*-kāṇḍīya , they have to go . . . undergo so many hardship, then they get something profit. People are working so hard to get some profit. In the material world everything is fearful, hard-working. So in the Bible it is said that hell or . . .? Devotee: Hell or . . .? Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is it? Hell, you were speaking something of hell? Devotee: Eternal hell. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Eternal hell? Prabhupāda: Eternal hell. Huh? What is that? Devotee: Everlasting hell. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that, so far as I remember, Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says that at the time of judgment . . . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Judgment, the judgment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a judgment . . . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: You rise from the grave in the time you are judged. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, all of the souls then rise for judgment, and accordingly they either go to heaven or to hell. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Or into an intermediate stage, where they can gradually go up to heaven. Limbo, I think. Lady devotee (2): The ultimate desire of a Christian is to be with Jesus, is to go to be with him. That is their ultimate desire. Not necessarily to be with the Father, but to be with Jesus. Gurudas: What do they do with him? Lady devotee (2): By leading the Christian life. Gurudas: I mean when they go to him, what do they do? Lady devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Gurudas: See, the idea is that you could not remember perfectly 'cause the taste is gone, the līlā is death mostly. But it isn't death; the basics are there, but they're teaching death. And so any intelligent person says: "I want to go to Jesus," but then what do I do? If it is everlasting hell, then heaven must be also everlasting, but what do we do? And if it's void, then it will not keep the people interested; therefore people are leaving religion. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good reason. There is no hope; better go to hell. (laughter) At least there is something. Never mind. Yes, hopelessness is not good. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Actually, that is their philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I've heard people say exactly that, is that, "All the things I want to do are for the people that are going to hell, therefore I want to go to hell. Why should I go anywhere else?" By drinking, smoking, etc . . . that's what they want. Prabhupāda: There was a story, the priest was describing about the hell, so they did not respond. But when he said: "There is no newspaper," then, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) Other conditions—that it is dark, there is very moist, and so many things described. But they were miners; they know that these things are happening daily. So what is the wrong in the hell? Then he stressed, "There is no newspaper." Then they will, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) So according to one's taste, the hellish conditions should described. *Gurudas: And according to one's taste the heavenly condition can be described also, because Kṛṣṇa is all*-attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems that just like a mother, when she is training her young child, because the child is very young and not yet very advanced in intelligence sometimes, the mother uses the method of fear to train her child. So similarly, according to the consciousness of the people, the doctrine of love of God has to sometimes be preached with a little element of fear so that they'll accept it. Prabhupāda: That creation of fearfulness may be sometimes, not fact; but fearfulness is there according to our actions. That everyone has got experience. Just like if you steal, then you go to jail. It is a fact. It is not a creation of fearfulness; it is a fact. If you contaminate some disease, then the typhoid or any other disease, you contaminate. So there is suffering, and that is really fearfulness; that is not a false creation. So sometimes there are false creation, but actually for our misdeeds we have to suffer. That's a fact. Panchadravida: I think if there is so much fear being preached in Christianity . . . originally the Old Testament was the testament of the vengeful God and the New Testament was supposed to be the love of Christ. So if there is so much fear being preached, it would seem to be a reflection of individual consciousness more than the religion. They are preaching so much fear, it would seem to stem from their own activities, that maybe they do have this fear, rather than the true reflection of the religion that Christ was teaching. He was supposedly . . . (indistinct) . . . to take up, he said, the sins of his disciples and to help them lead the nice life and lead them back. He said . . . he referred to them as his flock. So he was taking a role of a protector. And yet the Christians you speak to, they talk about hanging you over hell by a thin thread that can be burnt away at any second. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He said the Christians . . . (break) Prabhupāda: But generally the Christians, they are very much confident that, "All our sinful actions, that have been absorbed by Lord Jesus Christ, so we can do anything." *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they say the Christian religion is very good. "Very good" means that Lord Jesus Christ has taken contract for absorbing all their sins, and they go on committing. Is that not idea in the Christian religion? Devotee: Yes. Lady devotee (1): They say all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, Prabhupāda, that in Seattle you had me lecture on a newspaper clipping that in New Jersey they had opened up one home for alcoholic priests. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Five thousand . . . five thousand priests, they are suffering from alcoholic . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Plus here in India we see that the sādhus , they are taking gañjā . Prabhupāda: Gañjā , yes. Not sādhus; *rogues. Sādhu's description is there— bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk. Fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro. Even one is found that his habits are not to the standard, but if he has unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and engaged in His service, then he is sādhu . These sādhus with long hairs and gañjā smoking, they have no idea what is the ultimate goal. And those who come from Western countries, naturally they find out these are the sādhus , and they imitate. Hippies, they do like that, imitation. They do not know what is the philosophy, what is religion, what is sādhu . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: The American hippies actually are following these sādhus . Certain persons, like Allen Ginsberg, have brought back impression that this is what the sādhus . . . Prabhupāda: But they do not know that they are not sādhus , they are rogues. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Sādhu means devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is sādhu . *Devotee: We are also opening up homes for habituated japa*-mālā users, who are also intoxicated, but in a spiritual way. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That is required. (laughter) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: The spiritual master, his duty is to take all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, and I've heard it said that he doesn't leave until he has taken all his disciples back. What is the position of Lord Jesus when so many people are following him but not doing . . . not in a position to go back to home, back to Godhead? Is he responsible for all of these people, who are attempting to serve him? Prabhupāda: That is nice question. What is that? Repeat it again. Devotee: Because the guru is responsible for taking all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, I was wondering what was the position of Lord Jesus Christ, because so many people for so many years have been attempting to follow his teachings, many of them sincere, but not getting proper instructions. I was wondering if he is responsible for all of these people who are attempting to serve him. *Prabhupāda: But one thing is, we sing daily, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . You have to please your spiritual master. But yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi , if you displease your spiritual master, then you are nowhere. How do you adjust these things? It does not mean that because you have made somebody spiritual master, you displease him, at the same time he takes responsibility. Is it very nice? Devotee: Many times . . . Prabhupāda: If you please him, then he is responsible. Yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi . If you displease him then you are nowhere. So, if you take it in this way that, "My spiritual master has taken responsibility so whatever nonsense I do, it doesn't matter . . ." The Christians are thinking like that, that: "Jesus Christ has taken contract for all our sinful activities, so we can do anything, whatever we like." But that is not the fact. If one takes responsibility for you, you must abide by his order. Otherwise how is that, that he simply takes responsibility and you don't abide by his order? It is reciprocal. But the Christians are thinking, "Because we have taken to Christian religion, now we are safe. We can do anything we like, and Lord Jesus Christ will compensate. He'll be every time crucified and we can go on doing all nonsense." Is it not? Then? That's not a very good idea. *This is, as Viśvanātha Cakravartī said, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . If you please your spiritual master, then God will be pleased. If you don't please him, then you are nowhere. So first of all you please Jesus Christ—that is reasonable—then he takes the responsibility. If you disobey Jesus Christ in every step, where is his responsibility? That is a misconception. Devotee: There are some Christians who are actually sincere, and they feel as though they are doing the proper thing, but they are just misled by the fact that there is no paramparā system from Lord Jesus, that the churches are teaching the wrong thing. But they are sincere. If Kṛṣṇa will direct them . . . (indistinct) . . . the proper authority? Prabhupāda: Yes. If they are actually following strictly the principles of Jesus Christ, then sometimes when he meets some pure devotee, he will accept. The groundwork will be nice for accepting further advancement. Just like Jesus Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." So if anyone follows this principle—"No, I shall not kill"—then he becomes purified. But who is that Christian who is not killing? So where is follow? Amongst the Christians, the more killing process is going on very strongly. So who is a Christian? In that, if you disobey the first principle of Christianity, then where is your Christianity? Why you falsely claim that you are a Christian? "Thou shall not covet." What is that next? Devotee: "Thou shalt not kill." (break) Devotee: "Honor thy mother and father?" Devotee: There is one about no adulteration. Prabhupāda: Yes. So adulteration is going on, killing is going on. So many disobedience to Christian principles. So where is the possibility of becoming a Christian? Gurudas: "Honor thy mother and father" is not being respected. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: "Honor thy mother and father" is not being respected. Prabhupāda: Not . . . so many things. So, if you do not follow the principles of Christianity, simply by stamping yourself as Christian, will that do? So why Jesus Christ will be responsible for you, simply by stamping yourself that, "I am Christian"? Is that very reasonable proposal? *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Lord Jesus himself never claimed that he would be responsible. As a matter of fact, he would heal certain persons who by their karma were blind, or lame, some disease, even dead, he would bring them back to life, so many things. And then when he healed them, he invariably said after, he said: "Now go thou and sin no more, lest the worst thing befall you." And he has been saved by Jesus personally, yet Jesus is saying: "Lest the worst thing befall you." How can worst thing befall you if everything he does then is all right? So that means Jesus does not take that responsibility. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why he should be responsible? If you are not a Christian, why he should be responsible? Now here he says that, "Now you have sinned, full reaction I have washed, don't do it again." *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But they are going to the church, confessing every week, and doing the same thing. Who is a Christian, first of all find out; then Jesus Christ will take responsibility. Devotee: They are gambling and eating flesh right in the churches, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I mean to say, if you don't follow the Christian principles, how you can claim yourself to become a Christian and how you can ask Jesus Christ to take responsibility for you? These are misleading, therefore people are coming disgusted. Otherwise, Christian religion is all right. It teaches love of Godhead, teaches to become moral, it teaches to love people. That's nice. These are good principles. Viṣāla: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says: "Thou shalt not kill", and the Christians say: "Yes, thou shalt not kill, but you can kill animals." . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Where it is written that, "Thou shall not kill animals"? "Thou shall not kill." "Thou shall not kill" means you shall not kill anything. (break) Devotee: . . . because Jesus ate fish. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He said: "The fish can say: 'It's not what goes in your mouth, its what comes out of your mouth that's important.' " Gurudas: Because Jesus ate fish. Prabhupāda: Jesus said? Gurudas: He said that the . . . (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . allowed. Gurudas: But if there's no vegetables, you have to eat something. Śyāmasundara: I read an article once that said . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that one has to eat. And whatever you eat, that is coming out of some living entity, even if you eat vegetables. The vegetable has also life, the tree, the plant. So the real explanation is that you take which is offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is nice philosophy. Killing you have to do. Either you kill vegetable or animal, killing you have to do. Therefore our proposition is that you take the prasādam of Kṛṣṇa, so if killing is bad, then the responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . *So this is the method. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ mucyante sarva kilbiṣaiḥ. Suppose you don't kill animal, but you kill vegetables, but still you are responsible. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is preparing food for his personal eating, he's eating all sinful activities. It may be vegetables or animals, it doesn't matter. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpā. So this is the best formula. But therefore, for cruel people, those who are accustomed to killing, for them this is best advice, "Thou shall not kill". Next stage— prasādam . First of all let them stop. Generally, what is meant by killing . . . actually, vegetarians, they do not kill, because if you take fruit from the tree, the tree is not killed. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: You take grains, just like paddy or wheat. These plants, after producing the fruit, the grain, automatically they die. You are not killing. So those who are taking fruits, vegetable, grains, they are not actually killing. You take the milk . . . what is milk? Milk is transformation of the blood. So cow's milk means cow's blood, but still the cow is not killed. Cow's blood is nutritious, accepting this theory. Karnish , karnish it is called? Cow's blood? What is the meaning of karnish ? But by nature's way she is delivering you the blood, which is nutritious according to your science—but why you should kill her? *So any circumstances, the direct killing is not approved by any śāstra , any religion. Jīva hiṁsā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, niṣiddhācāra jīva*-hiṁsā (CC Madhya 19.159). So jiva hiṁsā , violence upon other animals, that is against Vaiṣṇava principle. You cannot be violent. You cannot kill. Lady devotee (2): "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the Ten Commandments, which is much older than Jesus' teachings. Moses delivered the Ten Commandments to the people of Israel thousands of years before Jesus appeared. So they knew all of this before Jesus. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): They lived by the Ten Commandments, or were expected to, way before Jesus appeared. The Ten Commandments are Moses' . . . it's Moses' teachings. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: They were all very much meat-eaters, though. In the time of Moses all the laws of kashruth , how to sanitary slaughter, which is supposedly given by God, these were all for meat-eating. Gurudas: That came after the Book of Mishnah (a Talmudic book, considered to be the cornerstone of Judaism). Mishnah recommends vegetarian. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Really? Gurudas: And also Lord Jesus says that if there is unnecessary killing of animal that, "By my hand you shall be slain." In Genesis. He is stating, "Yes, one may kill, but if there is unnecessary killing, by my hand you shall be slain." In Genesis. Lady devotee (1): Also, in Genesis is says that, "The fruits and the herbs of the land shall be your meat." It's describing how man should live, and it says: "The fruits and herbs of the land shall be your meat." *Prabhupāda: Yes, they were meat*-eaters, so Jesus Christ replies that fruit should be your meat. Devotee: The whole key is that . . . (indistinct) . . . Jesus in one of his first meetings said that, "Disregard everything that has been taught in the past and listen to me." He speaks so many things, and he does not lay out so many basic principles about the eating of flesh, having illicit sex connections and so many things. He speaks just slightly touching the subject. He doesn't really give any basic principles. So they always say: "Well, it's okay to do this, it's okay to do that, because Jesus said: 'Forget everything that was said in the past.' " That's their basic principle. Lady devotee (1): And he also said: "I've not come to change the law." He did not come to change the law. Devotee: That's just their standpoint . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't mean to argue. Śyāmasundara: The knowledge that we have of Jesus was not direct, but it was written down up to a hundred or two hundred years later in another language, called Aramaic, and scholars recently have discovered that wherever Jesus refers to fish, distributing fish, that that word actually refers to a type of sea plant that grows in the Sea of Galilee, which they make a type of bread out of. And it's not really fish but a type of vegetarian bread. This is what I read in an article. So, we don't have . . . (laughter) Lady devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a fish on Lakṣmī's hand yesterday. The Deities in the temple, where Lakṣmī had her hand up like this, there was a fish here across her hand. What is this? Prabhupāda: That is a mark. Mark. Lady devotee: It's an auspicious sign. Prabhupāda: Not actual fish. Lady devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not that Lakṣmījī eats fish. (laughter) There are many other marks also. Lady devotee: So it's an auspicious mark. Would it be better if we gave up the eating of vegetables, then? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Lady devotee: Would it be better if we gave up eating vegetables? *Prabhupāda: You cannot eat anything except kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Even if we eat vegetables, that is also sin. Bhagavad-gītā clearly says, bhuñjate te agham pāpā , ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). If you prepare very nice pure foodstuff for eating yourself, then still you are eating sins. You have to prepare anything very nicely, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, then you take. Then you will be free from all sin. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo . Even there is sin . . . sin there must be. Just like you are cooking, you are taking water from the jug, there are so many germs you are killing. The killing responsibility is there. In the higher sense: "Thou shall not kill" means you have to take the prasādam of Kṛṣṇa. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, even you do ordinary killing, vegetable killing, you are killing so many germs. So in higher sense, if you take this principle of Bible, "Thou shall not kill," that means you must eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam , otherwise you will be killing. In whichever you do, it will be killing. So our process is perfect: take kṛṣṇa-prasādam . Hmm? Viśākhā: What happens to the jīva souls who were fruits and vegetables that were offered to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is jīva also. I say that even vegetable you are killing, but that killing responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We are killing for Kṛṣṇa. Suppose in the vegetable there is life, but we are preparing food for Kṛṣṇa. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: I think she wanted to know what happens to the soul. Supposing that a plant, we are killing the plant and offering in prasādam to Kṛṣṇa. The jīva soul who is living in the plant, what happens to him? Prabhupāda: Because he is killed for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, so he gets immediately liberation. Lady devotee: This is a very sinful life they're living, unless we offer everything to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Not anything. Kṛṣṇa, whatever says, you . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). You can offer these things which is asked by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Do they just get liberation, or do they go directly to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: They go to Kṛṣṇa, or do they only get liberation? Do they go to Goloka Vṛndāvana? Devotee: What kind of liberation? Prabhupāda: Well, liberation not always means that he goes directly. In the lower stage, liberation means to come out of the lower stage to the human form of body. Then he gets chance for directly serving Kṛṣṇa, then real liberation takes . . . (break) Guest: . . . and I would like to invite . . . Prabhupāda: All right. (cut) (end) Conversation -- December 12, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: Hear and narrate. So, whatever you have heard, you can speak. (break) So in your country also they do not like this organized Christian religion. The difficulty is that either Hindu religion or Christian religion, religion is one. So what is that one religion nobody knows perfectly, and it was not presented, because they did not know what is religion. They are simply sticking to a particular kind of faith. Faith can be changed, faith can be given up, but real religion, that cannot be given up. It may be perverted. Real religion is to render service to the Supreme Lord. That cannot be changed. We are serving. If not to the Lord, we are serving māyā . But my that characteristic to serve is continued. So religion is presented simply on formulas and stereotyped ideas, but actual religion is this surrender. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ( SB 1.2.6). Bhakti means serving. Bhaja sevayā. Sevayā means serving. So religion means to serve the Supreme Lord. That is religion. Anything which has no such idea, that is not religion. Then again (you) have different types of religion, how far they are making progress with . . . on that ultimate goal, serving Kṛṣṇa? The more we advance, the more you become perfect, our real religious life becomes manifested. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *We say this is real religion. So what others have to say on this point? We say this is real religion. Bhāgavatam says . . . Bhāgavatam say, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2), "All cheating type of religion is thrown away." The cheating type of religion means which does not teach people how to serve the Lord. That is cheating. They take advantage of the religious feeling. They say: "I am God" or "I am everything". You serve me, you give your money unto me, I shall give you some material benefit, atonement. You have made your confess; you are sinful. Give me some money and you are excused." In this way religion is being perverted. Therefore, people are educated, (they) say: "What is this, religion?" They are becoming disgusted. But real religion is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness—surrender to Kṛṣṇa and you will become happy. So if we say that this is the real religion, is there anything wrong there? What possible protest they can offer when I say this is the religion? Śyāmasundara: Sometimes the Christians, they say that "According to our scriptures, that Christ is the only way. And unless one is worshiping God through Christ, that is heathenism." Prabhupāda: So what Christ teaches? Let us see what Christ teaches, then we can understand whether only through Christ we can . . . what is his teaching? Lady devotee (1): His first teaching is that "Love the Lord thy God with all they heart, with all thy might, with all thy . . . (indistinct) . . ." Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: He is also saying that, "I have no will but to do the will of my father, who has sent me," and that, "Everything I am saying is not my words but are the words of Him . . . (indistinct) . . ." Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That's nice. But they do not follow, and still they say they are Christians. They do not follow. Christ is all right. According to the time, according to the country, according to the atmosphere, he's all right, but the followers, they reject. Lady devotee (1): The followers try to make everyone fear God. Their whole aim is to make everyone so much afraid. They always try to instill fear in everyone that they speak to. "You are going to burn in hell." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the principle of eternal hell that is used to make people surrender: fear of eternal hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady devotee (1): Fear of God. *Prabhupāda: According to time . . . deśa*-kāla-pātra . That kind of forceful does not act very nicely. One should know the science, but the class of men to whom Jesus Christ said, they are not very much advanced. Under the circumstances, the fearfulness of hell is quite appropriate for them. *Actually, one who does not go back to home, back to Godhead, he is put into the hellish condition of life. That is fearful. But we are so blunt that we do not take care. It is fearful. Just like Prahlāda Maharaja said that, "Nṛsiṁha*-deva, I am not afraid of Your this fierceful feature, Narasiṁha, but I am very much afraid of this materialistic way of life." Saṁsāra. Saṁsāra means this material world. So it is actually very fearful. The whole atmosphere is fearful. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). To make adjustment, you have to accept something fearful. Just like this fight, "In future there may be some adjustment so that people may live peacefully. Therefore, we have to fight." This is also . . . the method is itself fearful. *To gain a position where there will be no fear, we have to accept a fearful method. So in the material world, whatever we think, they are not very happy proposition, that everything is fear. Karma*-kāṇḍīya , they have to go . . . undergo so many hardship, then they get something profit. People are working so hard to get some profit. In the material world everything is fearful, hard-working. So in the Bible it is said that hell or . . .? Devotee: Hell or . . .? Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is it? Hell, you were speaking something of hell? Devotee: Eternal hell. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Eternal hell? Prabhupāda: Eternal hell. Huh? What is that? Devotee: Everlasting hell. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that, so far as I remember, Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says that at the time of judgment . . . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Judgment, the judgment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a judgment . . . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: You rise from the grave in the time you are judged. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, all of the souls then rise for judgment, and accordingly they either go to heaven or to hell. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Or into an intermediate stage, where they can gradually go up to heaven. Limbo, I think. Lady devotee (2): The ultimate desire of a Christian is to be with Jesus, is to go to be with him. That is their ultimate desire. Not necessarily to be with the Father, but to be with Jesus. Gurudas: What do they do with him? Lady devotee (2): By leading the Christian life. Gurudas: I mean when they go to him, what do they do? Lady devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Gurudas: See, the idea is that you could not remember perfectly 'cause the taste is gone, the līlā is death mostly. But it isn't death; the basics are there, but they're teaching death. And so any intelligent person says: "I want to go to Jesus," but then what do I do? If it is everlasting hell, then heaven must be also everlasting, but what do we do? And if it's void, then it will not keep the people interested; therefore people are leaving religion. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good reason. There is no hope; better go to hell. (laughter) At least there is something. Never mind. Yes, hopelessness is not good. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Actually, that is their philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I've heard people say exactly that, is that, "All the things I want to do are for the people that are going to hell, therefore I want to go to hell. Why should I go anywhere else?" By drinking, smoking, etc . . . that's what they want. Prabhupāda: There was a story, the priest was describing about the hell, so they did not respond. But when he said: "There is no newspaper," then, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) Other conditions—that it is dark, there is very moist, and so many things described. But they were miners; they know that these things are happening daily. So what is the wrong in the hell? Then he stressed, "There is no newspaper." Then they will, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) So according to one's taste, the hellish conditions should described. *Gurudas: And according to one's taste the heavenly condition can be described also, because Kṛṣṇa is all*-attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems that just like a mother, when she is training her young child, because the child is very young and not yet very advanced in intelligence sometimes, the mother uses the method of fear to train her child. So similarly, according to the consciousness of the people, the doctrine of love of God has to sometimes be preached with a little element of fear so that they'll accept it. Prabhupāda: That creation of fearfulness may be sometimes, not fact; but fearfulness is there according to our actions. That everyone has got experience. Just like if you steal, then you go to jail. It is a fact. It is not a creation of fearfulness; it is a fact. If you contaminate some disease, then the typhoid or any other disease, you contaminate. So there is suffering, and that is really fearfulness; that is not a false creation. So sometimes there are false creation, but actually for our misdeeds we have to suffer. That's a fact. Panchadravida: I think if there is so much fear being preached in Christianity . . . originally the Old Testament was the testament of the vengeful God and the New Testament was supposed to be the love of Christ. So if there is so much fear being preached, it would seem to be a reflection of individual consciousness more than the religion. They are preaching so much fear, it would seem to stem from their own activities, that maybe they do have this fear, rather than the true reflection of the religion that Christ was teaching. He was supposedly . . . (indistinct) . . . to take up, he said, the sins of his disciples and to help them lead the nice life and lead them back. He said . . . he referred to them as his flock. So he was taking a role of a protector. And yet the Christians you speak to, they talk about hanging you over hell by a thin thread that can be burnt away at any second. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He said the Christians . . . (break) Prabhupāda: But generally the Christians, they are very much confident that, "All our sinful actions, that have been absorbed by Lord Jesus Christ, so we can do anything." *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they say the Christian religion is very good. "Very good" means that Lord Jesus Christ has taken contract for absorbing all their sins, and they go on committing. Is that not idea in the Christian religion? Devotee: Yes. Lady devotee (1): They say all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, Prabhupāda, that in Seattle you had me lecture on a newspaper clipping that in New Jersey they had opened up one home for alcoholic priests. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Five thousand . . . five thousand priests, they are suffering from alcoholic . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Plus here in India we see that the sādhus , they are taking gañjā . Prabhupāda: Gañjā , yes. Not sādhus; *rogues. Sādhu's description is there— bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk. Fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro. Even one is found that his habits are not to the standard, but if he has unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and engaged in His service, then he is sādhu . These sādhus with long hairs and gañjā smoking, they have no idea what is the ultimate goal. And those who come from Western countries, naturally they find out these are the sādhus , and they imitate. Hippies, they do like that, imitation. They do not know what is the philosophy, what is religion, what is sādhu . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: The American hippies actually are following these sādhus . Certain persons, like Allen Ginsberg, have brought back impression that this is what the sādhus . . . Prabhupāda: But they do not know that they are not sādhus , they are rogues. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Sādhu means devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is sādhu . *Devotee: We are also opening up homes for habituated japa*-mālā users, who are also intoxicated, but in a spiritual way. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That is required. (laughter) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: The spiritual master, his duty is to take all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, and I've heard it said that he doesn't leave until he has taken all his disciples back. What is the position of Lord Jesus when so many people are following him but not doing . . . not in a position to go back to home, back to Godhead? Is he responsible for all of these people, who are attempting to serve him? Prabhupāda: That is nice question. What is that? Repeat it again. Devotee: Because the guru is responsible for taking all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, I was wondering what was the position of Lord Jesus Christ, because so many people for so many years have been attempting to follow his teachings, many of them sincere, but not getting proper instructions. I was wondering if he is responsible for all of these people who are attempting to serve him. *Prabhupāda: But one thing is, we sing daily, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . You have to please your spiritual master. But yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi , if you displease your spiritual master, then you are nowhere. How do you adjust these things? It does not mean that because you have made somebody spiritual master, you displease him, at the same time he takes responsibility. Is it very nice? Devotee: Many times . . . Prabhupāda: If you please him, then he is responsible. Yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi . If you displease him then you are nowhere. So, if you take it in this way that, "My spiritual master has taken responsibility so whatever nonsense I do, it doesn't matter . . ." The Christians are thinking like that, that: "Jesus Christ has taken contract for all our sinful activities, so we can do anything, whatever we like." But that is not the fact. If one takes responsibility for you, you must abide by his order. Otherwise how is that, that he simply takes responsibility and you don't abide by his order? It is reciprocal. But the Christians are thinking, "Because we have taken to Christian religion, now we are safe. We can do anything we like, and Lord Jesus Christ will compensate. He'll be every time crucified and we can go on doing all nonsense." Is it not? Then? That's not a very good idea. *This is, as Viśvanātha Cakravartī said, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . If you please your spiritual master, then God will be pleased. If you don't please him, then you are nowhere. So first of all you please Jesus Christ—that is reasonable—then he takes the responsibility. If you disobey Jesus Christ in every step, where is his responsibility? That is a misconception. Devotee: There are some Christians who are actually sincere, and they feel as though they are doing the proper thing, but they are just misled by the fact that there is no paramparā system from Lord Jesus, that the churches are teaching the wrong thing. But they are sincere. If Kṛṣṇa will direct them . . . (indistinct) . . . the proper authority? Prabhupāda: Yes. If they are actually following strictly the principles of Jesus Christ, then sometimes when he meets some pure devotee, he will accept. The groundwork will be nice for accepting further advancement. Just like Jesus Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." So if anyone follows this principle—"No, I shall not kill"—then he becomes purified. But who is that Christian who is not killing? So where is follow? Amongst the Christians, the more killing process is going on very strongly. So who is a Christian? In that, if you disobey the first principle of Christianity, then where is your Christianity? Why you falsely claim that you are a Christian? "Thou shall not covet." What is that next? Devotee: "Thou shalt not kill." (break) Devotee: "Honor thy mother and father?" Devotee: There is one about no adulteration. Prabhupāda: Yes. So adulteration is going on, killing is going on. So many disobedience to Christian principles. So where is the possibility of becoming a Christian? Gurudas: "Honor thy mother and father" is not being respected. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: "Honor thy mother and father" is not being respected. Prabhupāda: Not . . . so many things. So, if you do not follow the principles of Christianity, simply by stamping yourself as Christian, will that do? So why Jesus Christ will be responsible for you, simply by stamping yourself that, "I am Christian"? Is that very reasonable proposal? *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Lord Jesus himself never claimed that he would be responsible. As a matter of fact, he would heal certain persons who by their karma were blind, or lame, some disease, even dead, he would bring them back to life, so many things. And then when he healed them, he invariably said after, he said: "Now go thou and sin no more, lest the worst thing befall you." And he has been saved by Jesus personally, yet Jesus is saying: "Lest the worst thing befall you." How can worst thing befall you if everything he does then is all right? So that means Jesus does not take that responsibility. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why he should be responsible? If you are not a Christian, why he should be responsible? Now here he says that, "Now you have sinned, full reaction I have washed, don't do it again." *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But they are going to the church, confessing every week, and doing the same thing. Who is a Christian, first of all find out; then Jesus Christ will take responsibility. Devotee: They are gambling and eating flesh right in the churches, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I mean to say, if you don't follow the Christian principles, how you can claim yourself to become a Christian and how you can ask Jesus Christ to take responsibility for you? These are misleading, therefore people are coming disgusted. Otherwise, Christian religion is all right. It teaches love of Godhead, teaches to become moral, it teaches to love people. That's nice. These are good principles. Viṣāla: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says: "Thou shalt not kill", and the Christians say: "Yes, thou shalt not kill, but you can kill animals." . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Where it is written that, "Thou shall not kill animals"? "Thou shall not kill." "Thou shall not kill" means you shall not kill anything. (break) Devotee: . . . because Jesus ate fish. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He said: "The fish can say: 'It's not what goes in your mouth, its what comes out of your mouth that's important.' " Gurudas: Because Jesus ate fish. Prabhupāda: Jesus said? Gurudas: He said that the . . . (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . allowed. Gurudas: But if there's no vegetables, you have to eat something. Śyāmasundara: I read an article once that said . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that one has to eat. And whatever you eat, that is coming out of some living entity, even if you eat vegetables. The vegetable has also life, the tree, the plant. So the real explanation is that you take which is offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is nice philosophy. Killing you have to do. Either you kill vegetable or animal, killing you have to do. Therefore our proposition is that you take the prasādam of Kṛṣṇa, so if killing is bad, then the responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . *So this is the method. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ mucyante sarva kilbiṣaiḥ. Suppose you don't kill animal, but you kill vegetables, but still you are responsible. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is preparing food for his personal eating, he's eating all sinful activities. It may be vegetables or animals, it doesn't matter. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpā. So this is the best formula. But therefore, for cruel people, those who are accustomed to killing, for them this is best advice, "Thou shall not kill". Next stage— prasādam . First of all let them stop. Generally, what is meant by killing . . . actually, vegetarians, they do not kill, because if you take fruit from the tree, the tree is not killed. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: You take grains, just like paddy or wheat. These plants, after producing the fruit, the grain, automatically they die. You are not killing. So those who are taking fruits, vegetable, grains, they are not actually killing. You take the milk . . . what is milk? Milk is transformation of the blood. So cow's milk means cow's blood, but still the cow is not killed. Cow's blood is nutritious, accepting this theory. Karnish , karnish it is called? Cow's blood? What is the meaning of karnish ? But by nature's way she is delivering you the blood, which is nutritious according to your science—but why you should kill her? *So any circumstances, the direct killing is not approved by any śāstra , any religion. Jīva hiṁsā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, niṣiddhācāra jīva*-hiṁsā (CC Madhya 19.159). So jiva hiṁsā , violence upon other animals, that is against Vaiṣṇava principle. You cannot be violent. You cannot kill. Lady devotee (2): "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the Ten Commandments, which is much older than Jesus' teachings. Moses delivered the Ten Commandments to the people of Israel thousands of years before Jesus appeared. So they knew all of this before Jesus. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): They lived by the Ten Commandments, or were expected to, way before Jesus appeared. The Ten Commandments are Moses' . . . it's Moses' teachings. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: They were all very much meat-eaters, though. In the time of Moses all the laws of kashruth , how to sanitary slaughter, which is supposedly given by God, these were all for meat-eating. Gurudas: That came after the Book of Mishnah (a Talmudic book, considered to be the cornerstone of Judaism). Mishnah recommends vegetarian. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Really? Gurudas: And also Lord Jesus says that if there is unnecessary killing of animal that, "By my hand you shall be slain." In Genesis. He is stating, "Yes, one may kill, but if there is unnecessary killing, by my hand you shall be slain." In Genesis. Lady devotee (1): Also, in Genesis is says that, "The fruits and the herbs of the land shall be your meat." It's describing how man should live, and it says: "The fruits and herbs of the land shall be your meat." *Prabhupāda: Yes, they were meat*-eaters, so Jesus Christ replies that fruit should be your meat. Devotee: The whole key is that . . . (indistinct) . . . Jesus in one of his first meetings said that, "Disregard everything that has been taught in the past and listen to me." He speaks so many things, and he does not lay out so many basic principles about the eating of flesh, having illicit sex connections and so many things. He speaks just slightly touching the subject. He doesn't really give any basic principles. So they always say: "Well, it's okay to do this, it's okay to do that, because Jesus said: 'Forget everything that was said in the past.' " That's their basic principle. Lady devotee (1): And he also said: "I've not come to change the law." He did not come to change the law. Devotee: That's just their standpoint . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't mean to argue. Śyāmasundara: The knowledge that we have of Jesus was not direct, but it was written down up to a hundred or two hundred years later in another language, called Aramaic, and scholars recently have discovered that wherever Jesus refers to fish, distributing fish, that that word actually refers to a type of sea plant that grows in the Sea of Galilee, which they make a type of bread out of. And it's not really fish but a type of vegetarian bread. This is what I read in an article. So, we don't have . . . (laughter) Lady devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a fish on Lakṣmī's hand yesterday. The Deities in the temple, where Lakṣmī had her hand up like this, there was a fish here across her hand. What is this? Prabhupāda: That is a mark. Mark. Lady devotee: It's an auspicious sign. Prabhupāda: Not actual fish. Lady devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not that Lakṣmījī eats fish. (laughter) There are many other marks also. Lady devotee: So it's an auspicious mark. Would it be better if we gave up the eating of vegetables, then? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Lady devotee: Would it be better if we gave up eating vegetables? *Prabhupāda: You cannot eat anything except kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Even if we eat vegetables, that is also sin. Bhagavad-gītā clearly says, bhuñjate te agham pāpā , ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). If you prepare very nice pure foodstuff for eating yourself, then still you are eating sins. You have to prepare anything very nicely, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, then you take. Then you will be free from all sin. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo . Even there is sin . . . sin there must be. Just like you are cooking, you are taking water from the jug, there are so many germs you are killing. The killing responsibility is there. In the higher sense: "Thou shall not kill" means you have to take the prasādam of Kṛṣṇa. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, even you do ordinary killing, vegetable killing, you are killing so many germs. So in higher sense, if you take this principle of Bible, "Thou shall not kill," that means you must eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam , otherwise you will be killing. In whichever you do, it will be killing. So our process is perfect: take kṛṣṇa-prasādam . Hmm? Viśākhā: What happens to the jīva souls who were fruits and vegetables that were offered to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is jīva also. I say that even vegetable you are killing, but that killing responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We are killing for Kṛṣṇa. Suppose in the vegetable there is life, but we are preparing food for Kṛṣṇa. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: I think she wanted to know what happens to the soul. Supposing that a plant, we are killing the plant and offering in prasādam to Kṛṣṇa. The jīva soul who is living in the plant, what happens to him? Prabhupāda: Because he is killed for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, so he gets immediately liberation. Lady devotee: This is a very sinful life they're living, unless we offer everything to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Not anything. Kṛṣṇa, whatever says, you . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). You can offer these things which is asked by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Do they just get liberation, or do they go directly to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: They go to Kṛṣṇa, or do they only get liberation? Do they go to Goloka Vṛndāvana? Devotee: What kind of liberation? Prabhupāda: Well, liberation not always means that he goes directly. In the lower stage, liberation means to come out of the lower stage to the human form of body. Then he gets chance for directly serving Kṛṣṇa, then real liberation takes . . . (break) Guest: . . . and I would like to invite . . . Prabhupāda: All right. (cut) (end) Conversation -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur (poor audio) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . unpopularity. There was monarchy. The kings were very responsible. Therefore the kings were known as rājarṣi. Rājarṣi, rāja ṛṣi . Rājarṣi , this is compound word . . . (indistinct) . . . king supervising the administration of the state, still his character was just like a ṛṣi , a saintly person, great sage. That was the qualification of the king. Therefore . . . Also Vedic civilization, even up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the government was monarchy. At the present moment, practically all monarchical state is abolished. Even there is some monarchy . . . formerly . . . (indistinct) . . . just like in England, the Queen, she is powerless. Actually, the Queen has no power. People have taken away the power. *Here also there is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, Jaipur. Actually, they are the owner of the state, Jaipur state, the old state, at least five hundred years old, this state . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the kingdom of Mahārāja Mansingh, former Mansingh, who was commander*-in-chief of Emperor Akbar . . . (indistinct) . . . but now they have no power. The people have taken away the power. *But according to Vedic civilization, this people's government is not sanctioned. Democracy. Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali*-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, so he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. *But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama*-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to be śūdras . So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power. We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested . . . formality. So they put their manifesto before the election that, "We shall serve you in this way and that way," but because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power . . . Just like recently there was fight between two political parties, and represented by two big men, Vishvanath Das and Hare Krishna Mahatattva. Both of them learned men, lawyers, but they are fighting like cats and dogs. So formerly, therefore, there was no such thing as democracy. A king, there must be one king responsible. But he was guided by the ministers and learned brāhmaṇas , sages. There was a body to guide him, to train him. Therefore, the monarchical government was perfect. Now here is a story of Vena Mahārāja. His father was a very . . . (indistinct) . . . it is usual, very nice king. But his son, this Vena, born of a bad mother, he was not good. He was killing unnecessarily animals, even men, because he was prince. So he would play with his friends, and if there is any fault on the part of his friends, he will at once kill. And because he was prince, son of the king, nobody could take any step. So the king was very much perturbed within his mind how to train this boy to become future king. But he was not successful. He was not successful. Therefore, being too much depressed and disgusted, he left home. He left home, let the things take place as it is. So: So purohita . It appears . . . purohita means the priestly order. In Europe also, this same Vedic civilization was everywhere. In the Middle Age, the priestly class used to control the king. Was it not? And the King John or . . . that he protested against the priestly order, and he inaugurated the Protestant Christianity from England. Devotee: Henry. *Prabhupāda: Henry. Henry, yes. So he revolted, not being controlled, revolted against being controlled by the priestly order. Here also we see, purohita amātya*-suhṛd-gaṇādayaḥ . When the king left, then the priestly order, purohita—purohita means priestly order, amātya, amātya means ministers; *and suhṛd*-gaṇādayaḥ , suhṛt means those who are willing welfare of the state—they became very much aggrieved that the king has left. So they were afraid of some political convulsion. So although the son was worthless, so they decided that "Let us make him king. Otherwise, without king, how the state can go on?" So: *Because there was no king, so people became always like . . . almost like animals. Paśu*-sāmyatām. Paśu means animal, and sāmyatām means equal. So when there is a political, I mean to say, less strong political situation, not very strong government, at that time a class of men take advantage. Just like in Calcutta. Because the government was very lenient, not very strong, a demonic class of men took advantage of it, and they began to create atrocities and fearfulness in Calcutta city. We have seen, practically people are not going out after evening, they are always staying in fearful state. Nobody knows whether he will come back home again when he goes out of his home on the street. People are so much disturbed. So in the absence of strong king, these people take advantage and create disturbances. That is always there. *So that happened. The people became paśu*-sāmyatām . Therefore, the sages called a meeting of all respectable ministers and saintly persons and Brāhmiṇs and decided, "Let us make this boy king." So he was enthroned. But because he was demonic, he was very strong. So as soon as he became king, all the bad elements of the state, they stopped their nefarious activity. Śrutvā nṛpāsana-gataṁ venam atyugra-śāsanam . They knew that, "This king is very strong, and for any little criminal action, he will strike very severely." So the bad elements, they subsided. Ivākhavaḥ . Just like on the rats, they understand that the snake is there, so (chuckles) they go inside the ground and they disappear. Sometimes rats, everyone knows, everywhere, as soon as the house is very old, there are many rats. *And as soon as there are rats, the serpent will come, the snake will come. So to keep the rats, that is also very dangerous. So one after another, the nature's arrangement is there. So the example is given that nililyur dasyavaḥ sadyaḥ sarpa*-trastā ivākhavaḥ . In this way, when he became very much powerful, he began to neglect the orders of the great sages, Brāhmiṇs and respectable gentlemen. He became very much upstart. So he became so strong that when he was travelling in the state, everyone was trembling. So very strong king. In this way, when he becomes too much powerful, then he began to preach atheism. And that is the way. The rākṣasī , the demonic way is that. If a demon becomes powerful—just like nowadays it is going on—some way or other if somebody becomes powerful, he doesn't care for the śāstric injunction or religion or God. They don't care for it. Just like there are many instances, Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, like that. So he also became like that. Then he began to order: By bugle announcement. In your country, I do not know, maybe. It is here in India still existing that if some public announcement has to be done, one takes a drum or bugle, he stands in one place and bugles or beats the drum. People then gathered, they announce something that, "This will be done. This is the order of the king or the state." Is there any such system in your country? Śyāmasundara: Formerly there was. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Formerly there was. A town crier. Prabhupāda: Trumpeting. Śyāmasundara: They call it town crier. Prabhupāda: Town crier. Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: He would go around and announce. Prabhupāda: Yes, the town crier. So the town crier began to preach that, "No more any sacrifice or yajña . Stop all this nonsense. (chuckles) No more Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ." (chuckles) Yes, they . . . just like in Russia we are afraid, of China, yes, they will immediately arrest. So this declaration was there, public. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na : no charity, no more charity. Just like government at the present moment, they are allowing charity still, but most of the portion of the income they take away by income tax, so that one may not have any power to give in charity. So at the present moment, the government does not declare that charity is illegal, but that time is coming very soon, very soon. As soon as there will be Communist government . . . our Indira Gandhi is cooperating with the Russian, and as soon as she is under the control of the Russian, gradually Communism will be introduced. People are afraid of this attempt by Indira Gandhi. *So anyway, these such things were existing formerly also, but they were not very common affair. Sometimes after many, many years, if a bad king would come . . . throughout the history, at least in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , we find this one king only, Vena, who declared the sacrifice, charity, illegal. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na dātavyaṁ na hotavyaṁ dvijāḥ kvacit (SB 4.14.6), by the Brāhmiṇs . Just like the other day it was published in the paper that this India spiritual, this is a myth. They are also declaring. Iti nyavārayad dharmaṁ . So execution of religious principle was forbidden, nyavārayat. Bherī-ghoṣeṇa. Bherī means bugle, by bugle, sarvaśaḥ , everywhere. So all the great sages and saintly person, Brāhmiṇs , they assembled together and began to consider, "Now what to be done? This rascal king has declared like this and making things hellish. What to do?" *This is the problem of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that people are becoming more and more godless. And one may think that unnecessarily we have taken this responsibility to make them God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see. There was no need to make this propaganda all over the world. But actually, the saintly persons have concern. Just like the other day I told you, Prahlāda Mahārāja was concerned that these rascals, for temporary so*-called . . . (break) . . . people are engaged unnecessarily to work very hard day and night, the capitalist, the worker. Big, big factory, iron factory, in so many factories, unnecessarily. So Prahlāda Mahārāja was concerned. He was living—his father was a demon—in the demonic state. *So this is natural. If one saintly person do not be disturbed by people's unhappiness, he is not saintly person. He is not saintly person. If he is simply satisfied that, "I have got a temple, I am getting good income. Let me eat and sleep . . ." No. My Guru Mahārāja condemned this process. He said that to earn livelihood by showing some temple and collecting money and eat and sleep, better to become a sweeper in the street and earn his livelihood instead of earning livelihood in this so*-called spiritual way. So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achara, taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. As in your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. Just see. They're getting money. *So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy*-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, and eat and sleep, and if possible drink also . . ." But of course, we are restricting. But naturally when become . . . when one man becomes idle, "Idle brain is the devil's workshop." So if he can get . . . just like rich man's son, they become. Everyone has got experience in every country. When he has no difficulty to get money, then what he will do? He will simply drink or invent some means of intoxication, naked dance. This is the . . . *So they became very much perturbed. Venasyāvekṣya durvṛttasya viceṣṭitam, vimṛśya loka*-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma . . . kṛpāya , they were very much compassionate. They cannot see. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī . Therefore, Vaiṣṇava is always unhappy by seeing others' unhappiness. They know how they are going to hell. Just like any gentleman will be aggrieved when they pass on the Bowery Street, seeing their fallen condition. So if any gentleman can become unhappy by seeing such condition of people, what to speak of saintly persons, who are supposed to be responsible for spiritual uplift . . . Devotee: Ahhhh! Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: A monkey. No one is guarding. They are probably taking . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somebody must be there. So monkeys, they are now taking advantage that, "These people have got some eatables." Therefore Darwin's theory is from monkey. That's a fact. From the monkey, cow and lion, the next birth is human life. *So vimṛśya loka*-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma satriṇaḥ , they began to discuss how to mitigate the troubles of the people. They began to discuss that aho ubhayataḥ prāptaṁ lokasya vyasanaṁ mahat : people, they are now disturbed both ways. One way, the king is a rascal. Another way is that taking advantage of the bad king, the thieves and rogues, they are also very powerful. So just see how the saintly persons become compassionate with the people, that they are both ways. *Actually, at the present moment, people are disturbed by unnecessary taxes, at the same time, bad elements. So without proper king, without nice state, everyone is unhappy. And that is going on nowadays. In the Kali*-yuga it will go on, continue, and more and more people will be unhappy. "If people are disturbed in this way, both ways, from the state side and from the rogue side, then how they will live peacefully?" Just like we sometimes say that if the politicians and the statesmen they are so irresponsible, fighting amongst themselves to capture the power, where is the time for them to think of people's welfare? They cannot. It is not possible. The same thing happened there. Tato api āsīd bhayaṁ tu adya kathaṁ syāt svasti dehinām. Svasti means peacefulness, dehinām , of the embodied living entities, dehinām . *Nirūpitaḥ prajā*-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ . So Vena, here it is mentioned, sunīthā-garbha-sambhavaḥ . His mother's name was Sunīthā . She was also daughter of a very bad king, and she inherited the father's quality. And the son also inherited the mother's quality. This is also true. The son inherits mother's quality, and the daughter inherits father's quality. *So because the grandfather of Vena Mahārāja was a bad man, his daughter, means Sunīthā , the mother of Vena, she became bad. And naturally her son, Vena, she (he) became bad. The father was very nice, good king. But because the mother was not good, the son became bad. Here is the evidence. Sunīthā*-garbha-sambhavaḥ . Sunīthā. His mother's name was Sunīthā. Because he was born in the womb of Sunīthā, a bad woman, therefore, he . . . nirūpitaḥ prajā-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ : he has been elected as the king to protect the citizens. Instead of protecting, he is disturbing. Now there is another saintly compassion: "Never mind he has done so much mischievous activities, this king; still it is our duty to go to him and give him good advice, so that all these disturbances may be stopped and people will become happy." Just mark this point that formerly the government could not be irresponsible, because the saintly person, they are always thinking welfare of the people in general. Mark this point. So therefore, a saintly person duty is to protect the prajā , the citizen, in a system so that they may become happy both materially and spiritually. This is one of the duty of the saintly person. Not that, "Let me go to Himalaya and press my nose, and I become liberated." This is not saintly person. This is not saintly person. You see? Saintly person means they should be interested with the public welfare, real public welfare. And public welfare means every citizens should be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then they will be happy, both materially and spiritually. My point is that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not selfish movement. It is the most philanthropic movement. But people, in the name of philanthropic movement, generally, because they are not actually saintly persons, they collect money and live. *Just like we can say frankly that the Ramakrishna Mission, they are collecting money, huge money, from your country, here also, to mitigate the sufferings of the poor people, daridra*-nārāyaṇa seva . But actually you see that how many poverty-stricken people are there in India. And if you go to the Ramakrishna Mission, you will see all the svāmīs , they are living in royal order. You see? This is going on. But people are still fool that . . . but your American people now, they are questioning. That one svāmī , Nikhilananda, he told me personally that the American people now questioning that, "You collect money for feeding the poor, but when we go to India, we see so many people lying down on the street." So they are questioning. Naturally there will be question. So . . . (someone enters) Ohhh, Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chuckles) So our Jaipur party is becoming stronger and stronger. So what news from Delhi? (end) Conversation -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur (poor audio) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . unpopularity. There was monarchy. The kings were very responsible. Therefore the kings were known as rājarṣi. Rājarṣi, rāja ṛṣi . Rājarṣi , this is compound word . . . (indistinct) . . . king supervising the administration of the state, still his character was just like a ṛṣi , a saintly person, great sage. That was the qualification of the king. Therefore . . . Also Vedic civilization, even up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the government was monarchy. At the present moment, practically all monarchical state is abolished. Even there is some monarchy . . . formerly . . . (indistinct) . . . just like in England, the Queen, she is powerless. Actually, the Queen has no power. People have taken away the power. *Here also there is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, Jaipur. Actually, they are the owner of the state, Jaipur state, the old state, at least five hundred years old, this state . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the kingdom of Mahārāja Mansingh, former Mansingh, who was commander*-in-chief of Emperor Akbar . . . (indistinct) . . . but now they have no power. The people have taken away the power. *But according to Vedic civilization, this people's government is not sanctioned. Democracy. Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali*-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, so he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. *But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama*-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to be śūdras . So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power. We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested . . . formality. So they put their manifesto before the election that, "We shall serve you in this way and that way," but because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power . . . Just like recently there was fight between two political parties, and represented by two big men, Vishvanath Das and Hare Krishna Mahatattva. Both of them learned men, lawyers, but they are fighting like cats and dogs. So formerly, therefore, there was no such thing as democracy. A king, there must be one king responsible. But he was guided by the ministers and learned brāhmaṇas , sages. There was a body to guide him, to train him. Therefore, the monarchical government was perfect. Now here is a story of Vena Mahārāja. His father was a very . . . (indistinct) . . . it is usual, very nice king. But his son, this Vena, born of a bad mother, he was not good. He was killing unnecessarily animals, even men, because he was prince. So he would play with his friends, and if there is any fault on the part of his friends, he will at once kill. And because he was prince, son of the king, nobody could take any step. So the king was very much perturbed within his mind how to train this boy to become future king. But he was not successful. He was not successful. Therefore, being too much depressed and disgusted, he left home. He left home, let the things take place as it is. So: So purohita . It appears . . . purohita means the priestly order. In Europe also, this same Vedic civilization was everywhere. In the Middle Age, the priestly class used to control the king. Was it not? And the King John or . . . that he protested against the priestly order, and he inaugurated the Protestant Christianity from England. Devotee: Henry. *Prabhupāda: Henry. Henry, yes. So he revolted, not being controlled, revolted against being controlled by the priestly order. Here also we see, purohita amātya*-suhṛd-gaṇādayaḥ . When the king left, then the priestly order, purohita—purohita means priestly order, amātya, amātya means ministers; *and suhṛd*-gaṇādayaḥ , suhṛt means those who are willing welfare of the state—they became very much aggrieved that the king has left. So they were afraid of some political convulsion. So although the son was worthless, so they decided that "Let us make him king. Otherwise, without king, how the state can go on?" So: *Because there was no king, so people became always like . . . almost like animals. Paśu*-sāmyatām. Paśu means animal, and sāmyatām means equal. So when there is a political, I mean to say, less strong political situation, not very strong government, at that time a class of men take advantage. Just like in Calcutta. Because the government was very lenient, not very strong, a demonic class of men took advantage of it, and they began to create atrocities and fearfulness in Calcutta city. We have seen, practically people are not going out after evening, they are always staying in fearful state. Nobody knows whether he will come back home again when he goes out of his home on the street. People are so much disturbed. So in the absence of strong king, these people take advantage and create disturbances. That is always there. *So that happened. The people became paśu*-sāmyatām . Therefore, the sages called a meeting of all respectable ministers and saintly persons and Brāhmiṇs and decided, "Let us make this boy king." So he was enthroned. But because he was demonic, he was very strong. So as soon as he became king, all the bad elements of the state, they stopped their nefarious activity. Śrutvā nṛpāsana-gataṁ venam atyugra-śāsanam . They knew that, "This king is very strong, and for any little criminal action, he will strike very severely." So the bad elements, they subsided. Ivākhavaḥ . Just like on the rats, they understand that the snake is there, so (chuckles) they go inside the ground and they disappear. Sometimes rats, everyone knows, everywhere, as soon as the house is very old, there are many rats. *And as soon as there are rats, the serpent will come, the snake will come. So to keep the rats, that is also very dangerous. So one after another, the nature's arrangement is there. So the example is given that nililyur dasyavaḥ sadyaḥ sarpa*-trastā ivākhavaḥ . In this way, when he became very much powerful, he began to neglect the orders of the great sages, Brāhmiṇs and respectable gentlemen. He became very much upstart. So he became so strong that when he was travelling in the state, everyone was trembling. So very strong king. In this way, when he becomes too much powerful, then he began to preach atheism. And that is the way. The rākṣasī , the demonic way is that. If a demon becomes powerful—just like nowadays it is going on—some way or other if somebody becomes powerful, he doesn't care for the śāstric injunction or religion or God. They don't care for it. Just like there are many instances, Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, like that. So he also became like that. Then he began to order: By bugle announcement. In your country, I do not know, maybe. It is here in India still existing that if some public announcement has to be done, one takes a drum or bugle, he stands in one place and bugles or beats the drum. People then gathered, they announce something that, "This will be done. This is the order of the king or the state." Is there any such system in your country? Śyāmasundara: Formerly there was. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Formerly there was. A town crier. Prabhupāda: Trumpeting. Śyāmasundara: They call it town crier. Prabhupāda: Town crier. Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: He would go around and announce. Prabhupāda: Yes, the town crier. So the town crier began to preach that, "No more any sacrifice or yajña . Stop all this nonsense. (chuckles) No more Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ." (chuckles) Yes, they . . . just like in Russia we are afraid, of China, yes, they will immediately arrest. So this declaration was there, public. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na : no charity, no more charity. Just like government at the present moment, they are allowing charity still, but most of the portion of the income they take away by income tax, so that one may not have any power to give in charity. So at the present moment, the government does not declare that charity is illegal, but that time is coming very soon, very soon. As soon as there will be Communist government . . . our Indira Gandhi is cooperating with the Russian, and as soon as she is under the control of the Russian, gradually Communism will be introduced. People are afraid of this attempt by Indira Gandhi. *So anyway, these such things were existing formerly also, but they were not very common affair. Sometimes after many, many years, if a bad king would come . . . throughout the history, at least in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , we find this one king only, Vena, who declared the sacrifice, charity, illegal. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na dātavyaṁ na hotavyaṁ dvijāḥ kvacit (SB 4.14.6), by the Brāhmiṇs . Just like the other day it was published in the paper that this India spiritual, this is a myth. They are also declaring. Iti nyavārayad dharmaṁ . So execution of religious principle was forbidden, nyavārayat. Bherī-ghoṣeṇa. Bherī means bugle, by bugle, sarvaśaḥ , everywhere. So all the great sages and saintly person, Brāhmiṇs , they assembled together and began to consider, "Now what to be done? This rascal king has declared like this and making things hellish. What to do?" *This is the problem of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that people are becoming more and more godless. And one may think that unnecessarily we have taken this responsibility to make them God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see. There was no need to make this propaganda all over the world. But actually, the saintly persons have concern. Just like the other day I told you, Prahlāda Mahārāja was concerned that these rascals, for temporary so*-called . . . (break) . . . people are engaged unnecessarily to work very hard day and night, the capitalist, the worker. Big, big factory, iron factory, in so many factories, unnecessarily. So Prahlāda Mahārāja was concerned. He was living—his father was a demon—in the demonic state. *So this is natural. If one saintly person do not be disturbed by people's unhappiness, he is not saintly person. He is not saintly person. If he is simply satisfied that, "I have got a temple, I am getting good income. Let me eat and sleep . . ." No. My Guru Mahārāja condemned this process. He said that to earn livelihood by showing some temple and collecting money and eat and sleep, better to become a sweeper in the street and earn his livelihood instead of earning livelihood in this so*-called spiritual way. So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achara, taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. As in your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. Just see. They're getting money. *So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy*-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, and eat and sleep, and if possible drink also . . ." But of course, we are restricting. But naturally when become . . . when one man becomes idle, "Idle brain is the devil's workshop." So if he can get . . . just like rich man's son, they become. Everyone has got experience in every country. When he has no difficulty to get money, then what he will do? He will simply drink or invent some means of intoxication, naked dance. This is the . . . *So they became very much perturbed. Venasyāvekṣya durvṛttasya viceṣṭitam, vimṛśya loka*-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma . . . kṛpāya , they were very much compassionate. They cannot see. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī . Therefore, Vaiṣṇava is always unhappy by seeing others' unhappiness. They know how they are going to hell. Just like any gentleman will be aggrieved when they pass on the Bowery Street, seeing their fallen condition. So if any gentleman can become unhappy by seeing such condition of people, what to speak of saintly persons, who are supposed to be responsible for spiritual uplift . . . Devotee: Ahhhh! Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: A monkey. No one is guarding. They are probably taking . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somebody must be there. So monkeys, they are now taking advantage that, "These people have got some eatables." Therefore Darwin's theory is from monkey. That's a fact. From the monkey, cow and lion, the next birth is human life. *So vimṛśya loka*-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma satriṇaḥ , they began to discuss how to mitigate the troubles of the people. They began to discuss that aho ubhayataḥ prāptaṁ lokasya vyasanaṁ mahat : people, they are now disturbed both ways. One way, the king is a rascal. Another way is that taking advantage of the bad king, the thieves and rogues, they are also very powerful. So just see how the saintly persons become compassionate with the people, that they are both ways. *Actually, at the present moment, people are disturbed by unnecessary taxes, at the same time, bad elements. So without proper king, without nice state, everyone is unhappy. And that is going on nowadays. In the Kali*-yuga it will go on, continue, and more and more people will be unhappy. "If people are disturbed in this way, both ways, from the state side and from the rogue side, then how they will live peacefully?" Just like we sometimes say that if the politicians and the statesmen they are so irresponsible, fighting amongst themselves to capture the power, where is the time for them to think of people's welfare? They cannot. It is not possible. The same thing happened there. Tato api āsīd bhayaṁ tu adya kathaṁ syāt svasti dehinām. Svasti means peacefulness, dehinām , of the embodied living entities, dehinām . *Nirūpitaḥ prajā*-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ . So Vena, here it is mentioned, sunīthā-garbha-sambhavaḥ . His mother's name was Sunīthā . She was also daughter of a very bad king, and she inherited the father's quality. And the son also inherited the mother's quality. This is also true. The son inherits mother's quality, and the daughter inherits father's quality. *So because the grandfather of Vena Mahārāja was a bad man, his daughter, means Sunīthā , the mother of Vena, she became bad. And naturally her son, Vena, she (he) became bad. The father was very nice, good king. But because the mother was not good, the son became bad. Here is the evidence. Sunīthā*-garbha-sambhavaḥ . Sunīthā. His mother's name was Sunīthā. Because he was born in the womb of Sunīthā, a bad woman, therefore, he . . . nirūpitaḥ prajā-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ : he has been elected as the king to protect the citizens. Instead of protecting, he is disturbing. Now there is another saintly compassion: "Never mind he has done so much mischievous activities, this king; still it is our duty to go to him and give him good advice, so that all these disturbances may be stopped and people will become happy." Just mark this point that formerly the government could not be irresponsible, because the saintly person, they are always thinking welfare of the people in general. Mark this point. So therefore, a saintly person duty is to protect the prajā , the citizen, in a system so that they may become happy both materially and spiritually. This is one of the duty of the saintly person. Not that, "Let me go to Himalaya and press my nose, and I become liberated." This is not saintly person. This is not saintly person. You see? Saintly person means they should be interested with the public welfare, real public welfare. And public welfare means every citizens should be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then they will be happy, both materially and spiritually. My point is that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not selfish movement. It is the most philanthropic movement. But people, in the name of philanthropic movement, generally, because they are not actually saintly persons, they collect money and live. *Just like we can say frankly that the Ramakrishna Mission, they are collecting money, huge money, from your country, here also, to mitigate the sufferings of the poor people, daridra*-nārāyaṇa seva . But actually you see that how many poverty-stricken people are there in India. And if you go to the Ramakrishna Mission, you will see all the svāmīs , they are living in royal order. You see? This is going on. But people are still fool that . . . but your American people now, they are questioning. That one svāmī , Nikhilananda, he told me personally that the American people now questioning that, "You collect money for feeding the poor, but when we go to India, we see so many people lying down on the street." So they are questioning. Naturally there will be question. So . . . (someone enters) Ohhh, Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chuckles) So our Jaipur party is becoming stronger and stronger. So what news from Delhi? (end) Conversation -- January 19, 1972, Jaipur (Conversation on SB 1.5.11) Prabhupāda: . . . these people or this revolution is meant for killing the sinful resultant action of the people. This revolution. Janatā agha. Agha means resultant action of sinful life. So janatā agha viplavaḥ. Viplavaḥ means revolution. This very word is used. *Such revolutionary literature, even they are not properly composed, yasmin prati-ślokam abaddham , not according to the grammatical rules and other rhetorical rules, but the, I mean to say, thoughts and the effects of such revolutionary literature is required. Not the grammatical. The so*-called rascals, they are concerned with the grammatical. But those who are actually worker, they are concerned with the thoughts. What is the thought is there? Therefore, it is said that: If there is simply the attempt is there how to glorify the Supreme Lord. That is a fact. It doesn't matter whether it is written in correct language or incorrect language. It doesn't matter. If the whole thought is targeted to glorify the Supreme Lord, then nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'nkitāni yat gṛṇanti gāyanti śṛṇvanti sādhavaḥ . Then those who are actually sādhu , even in spite of all these defects, because the only attempt is to glorify the Lord, then those who are sādhu , those who are devotee, they hear it. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti . Not only hear, they chant also the same thing. And not only chant, but gṛṇanti , they apply in their actual life. This is the Bhāgavata śloka . Is it clear now? Yes. *Tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo . If the thought is revolutionary for transcendental realization, even it is not properly composed from grammatical and literary point of view, because the attempt is there for glorifying the Supreme Lord, all devotee, all great sages, saintly persons, sādhavaḥ, gṛṇanti , they accept. Yes. Gṛṇanti śṛṇvanti , hear with attention, and gāyanti , and chant also. This is the principle. The only center is whether it is meant for awakening God consciousness. That is the central point, not the language. But it does not mean that it should not be correctly written. Correctly or incorrectly, if it is spoken by realized soul, that is important. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti . Some way or other, if the attempt is to glorify the Supreme Lord. *Otherwise, if the attempt is to kill the Supreme Lord . . . just like Dr. Radhakrishnan: what is the value of such erudition? A rascal. That is called vāk*-cāturyam , jugglery of words. It has no value. Anyone who is trying to present . . . just like Aurabindo, he has no idea what is Kṛṣṇa, and writing so many nonsense things. Vivekananda, he has no idea. Dr. Radhakrishnan. Rabindranath Tagore, he has no idea what is God, but he is writing Gītāñjali. That should be tested by life. Caitanya Mahāprabhu speaking, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya : He behaves Himself perfectly, and then teaches how to become a devotee. He is mad after Kṛṣṇa; He is falling down in the sea. You see? So that is wanted. And the Bhāgavata also says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir . . . (SB 1.2.6), how one has increased his devotion and love for Kṛṣṇa, that is the test of it. Not these formalities. *Another place Kṛṣṇa says, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). Even sudurācāraḥ , even not well behaved, but unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , he is sādhu . Don't consider about his misbehaviors. That is not consideration. That will be corrected. Because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, gradually those things, those defects will be corrected. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31): he will become very soon a great religious soul because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa. So in the beginning if there is some defect, we should not consider that. We have to see how much his love for Kṛṣṇa has increased. That is the test. Not the formalities. That is the test: how much he has sacrificed for Kṛṣṇa, how much he is prepared to sacrifice for Kṛṣṇa. If one takes Kṛṣṇa for making business, that is different thing. That is not devotion. Śālagrāma . . . My Guru Maharaja used to say, śālagrām diye badam bhanga . Just like you have seen śālagrāma . So if somebody takes that and breaks peanuts, so there is no devotion. It is a show. During . . . attracting the visitors, it is nicely decorated, but in their absence, take it and you will have stone. So all this, mostly the temple show is going on like that. They have made it a show of business. The devotees will come and pay something, and I may have devotion or not devotion, it doesn't . . . one should be bahyābhyantaraḥ śuciḥ (Garuḍa Purāṇa), inside and outside perfect. And then, against this: *Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśaḥ . You can present a literature very perfect from literary point of view, from metaphor and poetical, rhetorical, very perfectly written, citra-padam , attractive by language. Na yad vacaś citra-padam . Such kind of literature, if there is no description of the glories of the Lord, na tad vacaś citra-padam . . . just like there are so many sex literature, very attractive, it is selling like anything. But we are not interested in those rascal literature. Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham : such literature is considered as the place of enjoyment of the crows. *Vāyasam means crow. The crow take enjoyment in the garbage. You have seen? They won't go in a nice place. They will come all together. Just like vultures, they come together to take pleasure in a corpse, dead body. But a white swan, rāja*-haṁsa , he goes to a place where there is nice water, lilies and lotus and nice trees. You have seen that St. James's Park? Yes. They will find out such nice place. They won't go to imitate the crows. The crows-like people will take pleasure in such nonsense literature, sex literature, or any such literature. So many nonsense literatures nowadays they are having good sale. *Because people are becoming crows*-like, they have no high idea, they have no sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *naturally they will take. Just like hippies, they have become all bad taste, crows*-like. So we have to become swans, rāja-haṁsa, paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). Then you can understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you remain crows, then you cannot; that is not possible. *So by nature's example we have to see if crows*-like and swans-like, pigeons-like, birds of the same feather. "Birds of the same feather flock together," is it not? So you have to change your feather, then he will be pleased. If you keep your feather the crows-like, then you cannot mix with the swans. That is not possible. This is the test. There are classes of men like crows, and there are classes of men like swans. So we are preparing our devotee . . . (aside) What is that? Devotee (1): Is anybody watching? Devotee (2): No . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means swanlike. They should be like swans. Their behavior should be like swans. They should live in cleansed place, at refreshing place. So as soon as somebody will come to the temple, he will be . . . (aside) You have some papers I shall show? *Śyāmasundara: I just wanted to check and see if there's somebody here. It's Nanda*-kumāra. *Prabhupāda: So keep this principle in view, that you have to become swan, not crows. They say that everyone, every religion is all the same. This is all nonsense. Not same. In Bhagavad*-gītā there are different types of religion, sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika . And our this . . . if you take it as religion, this is transcendental. Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo (SB 1.2.6). Paraḥ means transcendental. It is not ordinary, aparaḥ . In aparaḥ dharma , the materialistic dharma , there are ritualistic ceremonies how to make one perfect for accepting transcendental religion. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is directly putting oneself in the transcendental. That is the special . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (aside) Why don't you close it? *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta say, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya (CC Madhya 22.62). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is to be supposed that you have finished all other types of religion. My Guru Maharaja used to cite one example that one's friend was sitting on the high-court judge's bench. *So he was speaking to another, "Oh, that Panchu was playing with us naked. He is sitting on the high*-court judge's bench. Oh, how he was playing with us naked? How he is seated in the high-court bench?" "Yes, I have seen. You have seen actually he is sitting." "Oh, then he must not be getting salary. He must not be getting salary." You see? So this is the argument. Familiarity breeds contempt. So he cannot believe that he has become a high-court judge. He thinks that "I am a rascal, fool, and my friend, how he can become high-court judge? He must not be getting salary." *But is that very good argument, such a high*-court judge is seated there without any salary? This argument is . . . that is enviousness. Nirmatsaratā . That is the habit of the conditioned soul. So if one . . . (break) Prabhupāda: There is another example, just one sees the moon "oh,"everyone says it is very beautiful, I spite upon it (makes spitting sound) so what is that spite? Devotees: (laugh) Prabhupāda: He falls on his face. Devotees: (laugh) Prabhupāda: The moon is far away, the moon is far away from him but he spites and it falls upon him. Devotees: (laugh) *Prabhupāda: So when a person becomes envious of a great person then he spites and the spite falls upon him . . . and he is far away. And the High Court judge one may accept him that he's not getting salary but he will get his salary, that's all. So parama . . . this bhāgavata*-dharma is for the parama-nirmatsarāṇām those who are not envious. These people are envious they have no personal capacity but they are very much expert to become envious of a person who is capable. *These are crows like, vulture like, tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo . So our this movement is not liked by these men, those who are habituated to spite upon the moon. They do not like us because it is hampering . . . it is revolutionary . . . it is hampering their business, that you will have to face but you have to go steady, you can do it . . . just like Gauracand Gosvāmī, you see? What he is? *But he is sitting there as sevite*-gosvāmī . The same things are going on like that everywhere. He has no education, he has no spiritual life, habituated to all bad habits, all cliques, all cheating everything but he is the head sevite , this is going on. They have no respect for Vaiṣṇavas, so everywhere you find such things. Devotee: And everybody knows it but nobody actually wants to do anything. So many people that know it in Vṛndāvana, we talk to them but they don’t want to do anything . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Devotee: Yes everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Devotee: They can see it. First time I visited, I was speaking, I wasn’t saying anything I was just watching and he took out a cigarette, what is this a Svāmī smoking? Devotee: You used to give the example, "Oh he is an important man, he is an important man," but his child says: "He is not important he's my father." Prabhupāda: Yes there is the English word, "Familiarity breeds contempt." If an important man is familiar, so he doesn’t think that he is very important, that is nature. So now you can disperse, the time is spent. (end) Conversation -- January 19, 1972, Jaipur (Conversation on SB 1.5.11) Prabhupāda: . . . these people or this revolution is meant for killing the sinful resultant action of the people. This revolution. Janatā agha. Agha means resultant action of sinful life. So janatā agha viplavaḥ. Viplavaḥ means revolution. This very word is used. *Such revolutionary literature, even they are not properly composed, yasmin prati-ślokam abaddham , not according to the grammatical rules and other rhetorical rules, but the, I mean to say, thoughts and the effects of such revolutionary literature is required. Not the grammatical. The so*-called rascals, they are concerned with the grammatical. But those who are actually worker, they are concerned with the thoughts. What is the thought is there? Therefore, it is said that: If there is simply the attempt is there how to glorify the Supreme Lord. That is a fact. It doesn't matter whether it is written in correct language or incorrect language. It doesn't matter. If the whole thought is targeted to glorify the Supreme Lord, then nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'nkitāni yat gṛṇanti gāyanti śṛṇvanti sādhavaḥ . Then those who are actually sādhu , even in spite of all these defects, because the only attempt is to glorify the Lord, then those who are sādhu , those who are devotee, they hear it. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti . Not only hear, they chant also the same thing. And not only chant, but gṛṇanti , they apply in their actual life. This is the Bhāgavata śloka . Is it clear now? Yes. *Tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo . If the thought is revolutionary for transcendental realization, even it is not properly composed from grammatical and literary point of view, because the attempt is there for glorifying the Supreme Lord, all devotee, all great sages, saintly persons, sādhavaḥ, gṛṇanti , they accept. Yes. Gṛṇanti śṛṇvanti , hear with attention, and gāyanti , and chant also. This is the principle. The only center is whether it is meant for awakening God consciousness. That is the central point, not the language. But it does not mean that it should not be correctly written. Correctly or incorrectly, if it is spoken by realized soul, that is important. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti . Some way or other, if the attempt is to glorify the Supreme Lord. *Otherwise, if the attempt is to kill the Supreme Lord . . . just like Dr. Radhakrishnan: what is the value of such erudition? A rascal. That is called vāk*-cāturyam , jugglery of words. It has no value. Anyone who is trying to present . . . just like Aurabindo, he has no idea what is Kṛṣṇa, and writing so many nonsense things. Vivekananda, he has no idea. Dr. Radhakrishnan. Rabindranath Tagore, he has no idea what is God, but he is writing Gītāñjali. That should be tested by life. Caitanya Mahāprabhu speaking, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya : He behaves Himself perfectly, and then teaches how to become a devotee. He is mad after Kṛṣṇa; He is falling down in the sea. You see? So that is wanted. And the Bhāgavata also says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir . . . (SB 1.2.6), how one has increased his devotion and love for Kṛṣṇa, that is the test of it. Not these formalities. *Another place Kṛṣṇa says, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). Even sudurācāraḥ , even not well behaved, but unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , he is sādhu . Don't consider about his misbehaviors. That is not consideration. That will be corrected. Because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, gradually those things, those defects will be corrected. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31): he will become very soon a great religious soul because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa. So in the beginning if there is some defect, we should not consider that. We have to see how much his love for Kṛṣṇa has increased. That is the test. Not the formalities. That is the test: how much he has sacrificed for Kṛṣṇa, how much he is prepared to sacrifice for Kṛṣṇa. If one takes Kṛṣṇa for making business, that is different thing. That is not devotion. Śālagrāma . . . My Guru Maharaja used to say, śālagrām diye badam bhanga . Just like you have seen śālagrāma . So if somebody takes that and breaks peanuts, so there is no devotion. It is a show. During . . . attracting the visitors, it is nicely decorated, but in their absence, take it and you will have stone. So all this, mostly the temple show is going on like that. They have made it a show of business. The devotees will come and pay something, and I may have devotion or not devotion, it doesn't . . . one should be bahyābhyantaraḥ śuciḥ (Garuḍa Purāṇa), inside and outside perfect. And then, against this: *Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśaḥ . You can present a literature very perfect from literary point of view, from metaphor and poetical, rhetorical, very perfectly written, citra-padam , attractive by language. Na yad vacaś citra-padam . Such kind of literature, if there is no description of the glories of the Lord, na tad vacaś citra-padam . . . just like there are so many sex literature, very attractive, it is selling like anything. But we are not interested in those rascal literature. Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham : such literature is considered as the place of enjoyment of the crows. *Vāyasam means crow. The crow take enjoyment in the garbage. You have seen? They won't go in a nice place. They will come all together. Just like vultures, they come together to take pleasure in a corpse, dead body. But a white swan, rāja*-haṁsa , he goes to a place where there is nice water, lilies and lotus and nice trees. You have seen that St. James's Park? Yes. They will find out such nice place. They won't go to imitate the crows. The crows-like people will take pleasure in such nonsense literature, sex literature, or any such literature. So many nonsense literatures nowadays they are having good sale. *Because people are becoming crows*-like, they have no high idea, they have no sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *naturally they will take. Just like hippies, they have become all bad taste, crows*-like. So we have to become swans, rāja-haṁsa, paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). Then you can understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you remain crows, then you cannot; that is not possible. *So by nature's example we have to see if crows*-like and swans-like, pigeons-like, birds of the same feather. "Birds of the same feather flock together," is it not? So you have to change your feather, then he will be pleased. If you keep your feather the crows-like, then you cannot mix with the swans. That is not possible. This is the test. There are classes of men like crows, and there are classes of men like swans. So we are preparing our devotee . . . (aside) What is that? Devotee (1): Is anybody watching? Devotee (2): No . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means swanlike. They should be like swans. Their behavior should be like swans. They should live in cleansed place, at refreshing place. So as soon as somebody will come to the temple, he will be . . . (aside) You have some papers I shall show? *Śyāmasundara: I just wanted to check and see if there's somebody here. It's Nanda*-kumāra. *Prabhupāda: So keep this principle in view, that you have to become swan, not crows. They say that everyone, every religion is all the same. This is all nonsense. Not same. In Bhagavad*-gītā there are different types of religion, sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika . And our this . . . if you take it as religion, this is transcendental. Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo (SB 1.2.6). Paraḥ means transcendental. It is not ordinary, aparaḥ . In aparaḥ dharma , the materialistic dharma , there are ritualistic ceremonies how to make one perfect for accepting transcendental religion. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is directly putting oneself in the transcendental. That is the special . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (aside) Why don't you close it? *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta say, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya (CC Madhya 22.62). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is to be supposed that you have finished all other types of religion. My Guru Maharaja used to cite one example that one's friend was sitting on the high-court judge's bench. *So he was speaking to another, "Oh, that Panchu was playing with us naked. He is sitting on the high*-court judge's bench. Oh, how he was playing with us naked? How he is seated in the high-court bench?" "Yes, I have seen. You have seen actually he is sitting." "Oh, then he must not be getting salary. He must not be getting salary." You see? So this is the argument. Familiarity breeds contempt. So he cannot believe that he has become a high-court judge. He thinks that "I am a rascal, fool, and my friend, how he can become high-court judge? He must not be getting salary." *But is that very good argument, such a high*-court judge is seated there without any salary? This argument is . . . that is enviousness. Nirmatsaratā . That is the habit of the conditioned soul. So if one . . . (break) Prabhupāda: There is another example, just one sees the moon "oh,"everyone says it is very beautiful, I spite upon it (makes spitting sound) so what is that spite? Devotees: (laugh) Prabhupāda: He falls on his face. Devotees: (laugh) Prabhupāda: The moon is far away, the moon is far away from him but he spites and it falls upon him. Devotees: (laugh) *Prabhupāda: So when a person becomes envious of a great person then he spites and the spite falls upon him . . . and he is far away. And the High Court judge one may accept him that he's not getting salary but he will get his salary, that's all. So parama . . . this bhāgavata*-dharma is for the parama-nirmatsarāṇām those who are not envious. These people are envious they have no personal capacity but they are very much expert to become envious of a person who is capable. *These are crows like, vulture like, tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo . So our this movement is not liked by these men, those who are habituated to spite upon the moon. They do not like us because it is hampering . . . it is revolutionary . . . it is hampering their business, that you will have to face but you have to go steady, you can do it . . . just like Gauracand Gosvāmī, you see? What he is? *But he is sitting there as sevite*-gosvāmī . The same things are going on like that everywhere. He has no education, he has no spiritual life, habituated to all bad habits, all cliques, all cheating everything but he is the head sevite , this is going on. They have no respect for Vaiṣṇavas, so everywhere you find such things. Devotee: And everybody knows it but nobody actually wants to do anything. So many people that know it in Vṛndāvana, we talk to them but they don’t want to do anything . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Devotee: Yes everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Devotee: They can see it. First time I visited, I was speaking, I wasn’t saying anything I was just watching and he took out a cigarette, what is this a Svāmī smoking? Devotee: You used to give the example, "Oh he is an important man, he is an important man," but his child says: "He is not important he's my father." Prabhupāda: Yes there is the English word, "Familiarity breeds contempt." If an important man is familiar, so he doesn’t think that he is very important, that is nature. So now you can disperse, the time is spent. (end) Conversation Hindi -- February 6, 1972, Bombay Prabhupāda: Conversation Hindi -- February 6, 1972, Bombay Prabhupāda: Conversation -- February 12, 1972, Madras Devotee: . . . by practicing . . . (indistinct) . . . (Tamil) Rajaji: (Tamil) Śyāmasundara: Where you are sitting? Rajaji: I am sitting here, so that I might give my right ear to you all. I haven't seen you before. Śyāmasundara: I'm Śyāmasundara. Rajaji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your seat. Rajaji: Very good, Where is my seat? Prabhupāda: You can take it, this seat. Rajaji: (indistinct) . . . the camera should have operated on your beautiful sārī . It's very good. Who is the chief of your group? You or he? Prabhupāda: (laughter) As you like. Rajaji: He holds a big stick, so I'm asking. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda is the chief. He has given me the stick. Rajaji: Where is my negro friend? He has not come? Prabhupāda: Oh, he is not come. There was no place in the car. There are many negroes. Rajaji: (aside) Sit closer. You belong to this place? No. What place you belong to? (Tamil with Mr. Sharma) It's a pretty long stick . . . (indistinct) . . . let me have a look at it first. It's wrapped in cloth. Oh, I see. Madhudviṣa: It is four bamboos. Rajaji: Huh? *Madhudviṣa: It is called tri*-daṇḍi. Tridaṇḍi . Rajaji: Tridaṇḍa . Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Tridaṇḍa . Prabhupāda: This is Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava. Rajaji: Are there three sticks in it? Madhudviṣa: No, there are three pieces—one, two, three. There is four sticks wrapped here. Rajaji: You have taken sannyāsa ? Madhudviṣa: Our Guru Maha . . . Prabhupāda has given me sannyāsa . Rajaji: Sannyāsa . Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Then only you can hold it. Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Yes, yes. Sit down, sit down. I will make the camera come out. (laughter) Can you take a photograph? Devotee: Huh? Rajaji: Photo? No, you can't. Guest (2): I can't, no . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Maybe he's too close. That's why it won't turn out. *Rajaji: Very well. I was told you were seventy*-six. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rajaji: You don't look like that. I think that's not correct age. Probably you are fifty*-six. (laughter) How many of you here . . .? How many are you here . . .? Will you sit nearer here? Girirāja: I . . . this is your good ear? Rajaji: Yes. This is my good ear. Yes. Girirāja: I'll sit on the white bench. Rajaji: You can sit here. Prabhupāda: Then you can sit down . . . Rajaji: How many are you here in Madras? Girirāja: About fifteen are here in Madras now. Rajaji: Fifteen or fifty? Girirāja: Fifteen. *Prabhupāda: One*-five. *Rajaji: One*-five. Girirāja: Yes. Rajaji: How many are women and how many are men? Girirāja: Two women and one child woman. Rajaji: Three? The rest are boys? Young men. Girirāja: Yes. *Rajaji: From seventy*-six downwards. (laughter) Girirāja: Yes. Rajaji: You belong to West Bengal, I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: West Bengal. Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Rajaji: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Great and famous place. Looked after . . . Prabhupāda: Where you were governor also. Rajaji: Looked after very badly. Very badly. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Lalaji was governor in West Bengal. Rajaji: How you have . . . yes. I was called governor for some time there. I liked the place when I was there. They were all very kind. They had settled down after a lot of rioting and death, and all that, they had settled down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: They were all very good to me. They looked upon me as a . . . an impartial man, which is a very great compliment in our country. Now you have undertaken a very great task. I am not competent to discuss or comment on it. Prabhupāda: No, I think you are the best man to comment upon it. Rajaji: True. Still, I am not presumptuous enough to comment on one who has actually taken up the work. That is the difference between thinking and doing. Thinking is easy. Doing requires inspiration, and you have taken it up. *Prabhupāda: I was thinking of taking up this task long, long ago. I wrote one letter to Mahatma Gandhi that, "You have got influence all over the world, and you are acknowledged a man of spiritual understanding. Now you have got svarāj , you better retire and take up this preaching of Bhagavad*-gītā all over the world." *Rajaji: He was doing if from the beginning—not exclusively that, but applying the Bhagavad*-gītā to everything that he was doing. He was doing it really. But you are referring to concentrated, exclusive . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . teaching of the doctrines a way of life described in . . . Prabhupāda: Sometimes I requested Dr. Radhakrishnan also . . . Rajaji: Huh? *Prabhupāda: . . . when he was vice*-president. Rajaji: Radhakrishnan? Nowhere in comparison with Gandhi. Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Rajaji: Radhakrishnan, highly intellectual, good man, but he was more of a . . . there was no inspiration he gave. Prabhupāda: No, no. Rajaji: God seems to have decided to spare him (laughs) from that, from hard work. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Rajaji: He was very happy, and he was very good and I love . . . I have great love for him, and he was a very just man. He was a teacher of . . . Prabhupāda: In Calcutta he was a professor. *Rajaji: . . . politics, not of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Now, would you allow me to think aloud . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . in the matter you have taken up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: First of all, they are scattered all over the world, your Society. Scattered all over the world. They do not live together anywhere. Prabhupāda: No. I have got different centers. Rajaji: You have. Prabhupāda: Yes. In different cities. Rajaji: And they live together there? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got devotees in each center not less than twenty*-five, and up to two hundred. Rajaji: I see. Oh, as big as that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Now, taking up my thoughts on the crude difficulties of management. First of all there is the very crude necessity of getting money to run these institutions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: And that means . . . Prabhupāda: I may inform you, in this connection . . . Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: . . . that we are spending at the present moment seventy to eighty thousand dollars per month. Rajaji: That's right. So whatever the exact amount may be, it's likely to be a big amount, and that means befriending people who will be prepared to part with the money . . . *Prabhupāda: Hard*-earned money. Rajaji: . . . the money that they worship. Eh? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Money god is greater than Brahma and Śiva and Viṣṇu, just about, unfortunately. The people have made an idol of gold and silver and letter of paper, paper meaning the promises of government . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . which are never kept. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I was going to say, it is a fraud. Rajaji: Fraud. Prabhupāda: Māyā . Rajaji: But that is . . . Prabhupāda: It is māyā . I give you piece of paper, and you think one thousand rupees. This is māyā . Rajaji: Yes. You see it depends on the credit to the man who gives the promise. Paper is mainly the document of credit. Governments have till now kept their credit, but now they have learned to disregard their promises also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: So that is one of the main troubles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: But I think any religious movement like yours, people think they can buy up the grace of God by giving some money. Right? So you won't find any difficulty in getting money, because there is air of sin in the world, and the sinful people think they can compromise by giving money. Let them give. Prabhupāda: That is also good. Rajaji: Let them give. That . . . but that is the smallest point. Another point is, I suppose in each institution, in each center, there are men as well as woman . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . and they live together. Prabhupāda: Not together. Woman's section is different. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: Women's section is different. Rajaji: Different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: It's very important . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . because all religious organizations have floundered on scandal, and you will have to be very careful about that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: This is what an old man has a right to tell you. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, from the very beginning, because in Western countries the boys and girls, they intermingle very freely. Rajaji: Oh, yes, we know all that. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Rajaji: We know for a fact. Prabhupāda: . . . and therefore I, as far as possible, I get them married. Rajaji: Yes. But that doesn't prevent permissive culture. It acts as a sort of guarantee (Prabhupāda laughs), as a sort of insurance against scandal. But scandals do come out. Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is a . . . Rajaji: So you are left with, that is another crude problem . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . that you have to take great care about. The traditional life of separate living is safer for organization. So all right to have men and are married and then in family they can mix. There is no difficulty. But when you start the separate organization, against which people are ready to manufacture stories, then you will have to be much more careful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: So that is one comment I make as an old man. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are very valuable. Yes. Rajaji: That is a wise thing from an old man. That's one thing. Then these are minor matters. On the philosophy of action which you have taken . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . of converting the people to Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Consciousness. Rajaji: . . . to worship of Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . I wonder whether you will place more importance, I ask my friend, Mr . . . uh . . . Prabhupāda: Girirāja. Rajaji: . . . Girirāja, whether it is the *Gītā* that you may stress on or the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: *Gītā* is the preliminary study of *Bhāgavatam* . *Rajaji: True, but in Bhāgavatam there is lots of danger, so far as Śrī Kṛṣṇa goes. The Bhāgavatam , so far as it relates to the other incarnations of Mahā*-Viṣṇu its self, different, but so far as Śrī Kṛṣṇa goes, it deals with a chapter of His life which can mislead people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are very cautious. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: That we are very cautious. Rajaji: You will have to be very cautious. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was discussing this point . . . Rajaji: Generally, generally people begin to think, "I am Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: Ah, that is nonsense. Rajaji: ". . . God." That is what happens. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rajaji: Now, that is a danger. But so far as the Gītā-ācārya's teachings, who is a different person . . . there's no reference to early life in Vyāsa's Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā is simply about an ācārya . Occasionally He says "I am īśvara ," but He's an ācārya primarily. I need not . . . I am not trying to sermonize to you, but I'm trying to explain what I feel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Very difficult doctrine of detachment. The Gītā-ācārya says sannyāsa is difficult, and you are likely to become a hypocrite if you, if you . . . Prabhupāda: Mithyācāraḥ sa ucyate ( BG 3.6). Rajaji: . . . if you prematurely take sannyāsa . Therefore try and compromise the principles of sannyāsa , that is to say of renunciation, with worldly action, and, I mean, performance of duty, by performing the duties without caring for the results. That is the renunciation He has preached, I have understood. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: The Gītā-ācārya that . . . (indistinct) . . . will confirm, I have no doubt. But the question which I put to Girirāja was whether it would not have been better if you work from inside rather than make yourself a separate cult and organization. Separate organization, once you form it, becomes like a person who is born. He gets his attachment, his ego, his everything. So the separate organization, like Mr. Banu, becomes an ego. He is fond of his own attachments, of his own interest, and so the organization must be looked after. The organization should succeed . . . the organization should succeed better than other organizations. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . among organizations. So all the egotistic weaknesses apply to organizations also. Therefore I was wondering whether it would not, if you had convinced that your mission was to spread the Gītā-ācārya's teachings as to how to act with detachment and with faith in the grace of God, where you go wrong, could not be having better done without making yourself separate. Prabhupāda: No. The thing is, when there is detachment, there must be another attachment. Rajaji: Yes. To God. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is required. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: That is required. Just like . . . Rajaji: Yes. Attachment to . . . there is a Tamil, Kurul. You have heard of the name Kurul, Thiruvalluvar—it is classic, Tamil classic—makes this point very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: If you wish to live without detachment, attach yourself to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: That will be the . . . Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Rajaji: Eh? Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate . Rajaji: Yes. Prabhupāda: After getting good attachment, one gives up the inferior attachment. Rajaji: Right. That will better right. The attachment should be to God. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Rajaji: Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, as I will call Him. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rajaji: Attachment should be to Govinda, not to an organization. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Govinda is absolute. Govinda and Govinda's organization, the same. Govinda is absolute. Rajaji: I don't want to discuss it, I told you. I'm not competent to discuss. I'm just telling you what I think. Prabhupāda: No. I'm also answering this point. Just like Kṛṣṇa, His name, His form, His pastimes, His entourage, they are all the same. Otherwise, what is the benefit of chanting Kṛṣṇa's name? Suppose I am thirsty just now. If I simply chant the name of water, "water," I'll not be satisfied. Water is required, actual substance. But when we chant "Kṛṣṇa," if Kṛṣṇa name is different from Kṛṣṇa, then you . . . (end) Conversation -- February 12, 1972, Madras Devotee: . . . by practicing . . . (indistinct) . . . (Tamil) Rajaji: (Tamil) Śyāmasundara: Where you are sitting? Rajaji: I am sitting here, so that I might give my right ear to you all. I haven't seen you before. Śyāmasundara: I'm Śyāmasundara. Rajaji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your seat. Rajaji: Very good, Where is my seat? Prabhupāda: You can take it, this seat. Rajaji: (indistinct) . . . the camera should have operated on your beautiful sārī . It's very good. Who is the chief of your group? You or he? Prabhupāda: (laughter) As you like. Rajaji: He holds a big stick, so I'm asking. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda is the chief. He has given me the stick. Rajaji: Where is my negro friend? He has not come? Prabhupāda: Oh, he is not come. There was no place in the car. There are many negroes. Rajaji: (aside) Sit closer. You belong to this place? No. What place you belong to? (Tamil with Mr. Sharma) It's a pretty long stick . . . (indistinct) . . . let me have a look at it first. It's wrapped in cloth. Oh, I see. Madhudviṣa: It is four bamboos. Rajaji: Huh? *Madhudviṣa: It is called tri*-daṇḍi. Tridaṇḍi . Rajaji: Tridaṇḍa . Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Tridaṇḍa . Prabhupāda: This is Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava. Rajaji: Are there three sticks in it? Madhudviṣa: No, there are three pieces—one, two, three. There is four sticks wrapped here. Rajaji: You have taken sannyāsa ? Madhudviṣa: Our Guru Maha . . . Prabhupāda has given me sannyāsa . Rajaji: Sannyāsa . Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Then only you can hold it. Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Yes, yes. Sit down, sit down. I will make the camera come out. (laughter) Can you take a photograph? Devotee: Huh? Rajaji: Photo? No, you can't. Guest (2): I can't, no . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Maybe he's too close. That's why it won't turn out. *Rajaji: Very well. I was told you were seventy*-six. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rajaji: You don't look like that. I think that's not correct age. Probably you are fifty*-six. (laughter) How many of you here . . .? How many are you here . . .? Will you sit nearer here? Girirāja: I . . . this is your good ear? Rajaji: Yes. This is my good ear. Yes. Girirāja: I'll sit on the white bench. Rajaji: You can sit here. Prabhupāda: Then you can sit down . . . Rajaji: How many are you here in Madras? Girirāja: About fifteen are here in Madras now. Rajaji: Fifteen or fifty? Girirāja: Fifteen. *Prabhupāda: One*-five. *Rajaji: One*-five. Girirāja: Yes. Rajaji: How many are women and how many are men? Girirāja: Two women and one child woman. Rajaji: Three? The rest are boys? Young men. Girirāja: Yes. *Rajaji: From seventy*-six downwards. (laughter) Girirāja: Yes. Rajaji: You belong to West Bengal, I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: West Bengal. Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Rajaji: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Great and famous place. Looked after . . . Prabhupāda: Where you were governor also. Rajaji: Looked after very badly. Very badly. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Lalaji was governor in West Bengal. Rajaji: How you have . . . yes. I was called governor for some time there. I liked the place when I was there. They were all very kind. They had settled down after a lot of rioting and death, and all that, they had settled down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: They were all very good to me. They looked upon me as a . . . an impartial man, which is a very great compliment in our country. Now you have undertaken a very great task. I am not competent to discuss or comment on it. Prabhupāda: No, I think you are the best man to comment upon it. Rajaji: True. Still, I am not presumptuous enough to comment on one who has actually taken up the work. That is the difference between thinking and doing. Thinking is easy. Doing requires inspiration, and you have taken it up. *Prabhupāda: I was thinking of taking up this task long, long ago. I wrote one letter to Mahatma Gandhi that, "You have got influence all over the world, and you are acknowledged a man of spiritual understanding. Now you have got svarāj , you better retire and take up this preaching of Bhagavad*-gītā all over the world." *Rajaji: He was doing if from the beginning—not exclusively that, but applying the Bhagavad*-gītā to everything that he was doing. He was doing it really. But you are referring to concentrated, exclusive . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . teaching of the doctrines a way of life described in . . . Prabhupāda: Sometimes I requested Dr. Radhakrishnan also . . . Rajaji: Huh? *Prabhupāda: . . . when he was vice*-president. Rajaji: Radhakrishnan? Nowhere in comparison with Gandhi. Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Rajaji: Radhakrishnan, highly intellectual, good man, but he was more of a . . . there was no inspiration he gave. Prabhupāda: No, no. Rajaji: God seems to have decided to spare him (laughs) from that, from hard work. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Rajaji: He was very happy, and he was very good and I love . . . I have great love for him, and he was a very just man. He was a teacher of . . . Prabhupāda: In Calcutta he was a professor. *Rajaji: . . . politics, not of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Now, would you allow me to think aloud . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . in the matter you have taken up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: First of all, they are scattered all over the world, your Society. Scattered all over the world. They do not live together anywhere. Prabhupāda: No. I have got different centers. Rajaji: You have. Prabhupāda: Yes. In different cities. Rajaji: And they live together there? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got devotees in each center not less than twenty*-five, and up to two hundred. Rajaji: I see. Oh, as big as that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Now, taking up my thoughts on the crude difficulties of management. First of all there is the very crude necessity of getting money to run these institutions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: And that means . . . Prabhupāda: I may inform you, in this connection . . . Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: . . . that we are spending at the present moment seventy to eighty thousand dollars per month. Rajaji: That's right. So whatever the exact amount may be, it's likely to be a big amount, and that means befriending people who will be prepared to part with the money . . . *Prabhupāda: Hard*-earned money. Rajaji: . . . the money that they worship. Eh? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Money god is greater than Brahma and Śiva and Viṣṇu, just about, unfortunately. The people have made an idol of gold and silver and letter of paper, paper meaning the promises of government . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . which are never kept. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I was going to say, it is a fraud. Rajaji: Fraud. Prabhupāda: Māyā . Rajaji: But that is . . . Prabhupāda: It is māyā . I give you piece of paper, and you think one thousand rupees. This is māyā . Rajaji: Yes. You see it depends on the credit to the man who gives the promise. Paper is mainly the document of credit. Governments have till now kept their credit, but now they have learned to disregard their promises also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: So that is one of the main troubles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: But I think any religious movement like yours, people think they can buy up the grace of God by giving some money. Right? So you won't find any difficulty in getting money, because there is air of sin in the world, and the sinful people think they can compromise by giving money. Let them give. Prabhupāda: That is also good. Rajaji: Let them give. That . . . but that is the smallest point. Another point is, I suppose in each institution, in each center, there are men as well as woman . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . and they live together. Prabhupāda: Not together. Woman's section is different. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: Women's section is different. Rajaji: Different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: It's very important . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . because all religious organizations have floundered on scandal, and you will have to be very careful about that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: This is what an old man has a right to tell you. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, from the very beginning, because in Western countries the boys and girls, they intermingle very freely. Rajaji: Oh, yes, we know all that. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Rajaji: We know for a fact. Prabhupāda: . . . and therefore I, as far as possible, I get them married. Rajaji: Yes. But that doesn't prevent permissive culture. It acts as a sort of guarantee (Prabhupāda laughs), as a sort of insurance against scandal. But scandals do come out. Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is a . . . Rajaji: So you are left with, that is another crude problem . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . that you have to take great care about. The traditional life of separate living is safer for organization. So all right to have men and are married and then in family they can mix. There is no difficulty. But when you start the separate organization, against which people are ready to manufacture stories, then you will have to be much more careful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: So that is one comment I make as an old man. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are very valuable. Yes. Rajaji: That is a wise thing from an old man. That's one thing. Then these are minor matters. On the philosophy of action which you have taken . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . of converting the people to Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Consciousness. Rajaji: . . . to worship of Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . I wonder whether you will place more importance, I ask my friend, Mr . . . uh . . . Prabhupāda: Girirāja. Rajaji: . . . Girirāja, whether it is the *Gītā* that you may stress on or the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: *Gītā* is the preliminary study of *Bhāgavatam* . *Rajaji: True, but in Bhāgavatam there is lots of danger, so far as Śrī Kṛṣṇa goes. The Bhāgavatam , so far as it relates to the other incarnations of Mahā*-Viṣṇu its self, different, but so far as Śrī Kṛṣṇa goes, it deals with a chapter of His life which can mislead people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are very cautious. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: That we are very cautious. Rajaji: You will have to be very cautious. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was discussing this point . . . Rajaji: Generally, generally people begin to think, "I am Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: Ah, that is nonsense. Rajaji: ". . . God." That is what happens. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rajaji: Now, that is a danger. But so far as the Gītā-ācārya's teachings, who is a different person . . . there's no reference to early life in Vyāsa's Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā is simply about an ācārya . Occasionally He says "I am īśvara ," but He's an ācārya primarily. I need not . . . I am not trying to sermonize to you, but I'm trying to explain what I feel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Very difficult doctrine of detachment. The Gītā-ācārya says sannyāsa is difficult, and you are likely to become a hypocrite if you, if you . . . Prabhupāda: Mithyācāraḥ sa ucyate ( BG 3.6). Rajaji: . . . if you prematurely take sannyāsa . Therefore try and compromise the principles of sannyāsa , that is to say of renunciation, with worldly action, and, I mean, performance of duty, by performing the duties without caring for the results. That is the renunciation He has preached, I have understood. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: The Gītā-ācārya that . . . (indistinct) . . . will confirm, I have no doubt. But the question which I put to Girirāja was whether it would not have been better if you work from inside rather than make yourself a separate cult and organization. Separate organization, once you form it, becomes like a person who is born. He gets his attachment, his ego, his everything. So the separate organization, like Mr. Banu, becomes an ego. He is fond of his own attachments, of his own interest, and so the organization must be looked after. The organization should succeed . . . the organization should succeed better than other organizations. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . among organizations. So all the egotistic weaknesses apply to organizations also. Therefore I was wondering whether it would not, if you had convinced that your mission was to spread the Gītā-ācārya's teachings as to how to act with detachment and with faith in the grace of God, where you go wrong, could not be having better done without making yourself separate. Prabhupāda: No. The thing is, when there is detachment, there must be another attachment. Rajaji: Yes. To God. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is required. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: That is required. Just like . . . Rajaji: Yes. Attachment to . . . there is a Tamil, Kurul. You have heard of the name Kurul, Thiruvalluvar—it is classic, Tamil classic—makes this point very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: If you wish to live without detachment, attach yourself to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: That will be the . . . Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Rajaji: Eh? Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate . Rajaji: Yes. Prabhupāda: After getting good attachment, one gives up the inferior attachment. Rajaji: Right. That will better right. The attachment should be to God. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Rajaji: Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, as I will call Him. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rajaji: Attachment should be to Govinda, not to an organization. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Govinda is absolute. Govinda and Govinda's organization, the same. Govinda is absolute. Rajaji: I don't want to discuss it, I told you. I'm not competent to discuss. I'm just telling you what I think. Prabhupāda: No. I'm also answering this point. Just like Kṛṣṇa, His name, His form, His pastimes, His entourage, they are all the same. Otherwise, what is the benefit of chanting Kṛṣṇa's name? Suppose I am thirsty just now. If I simply chant the name of water, "water," I'll not be satisfied. Water is required, actual substance. But when we chant "Kṛṣṇa," if Kṛṣṇa name is different from Kṛṣṇa, then you . . . (end) Conversation -- February 15, 1972, Madras Prabhupāda: (reading) ". . . (indistinct) . . . from Him, his mind becomes totally associated with Him. His Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda in his discourse at the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sunday, said there was no rigid rules and regulations for chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, nor does it require formal education. While uttering the name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa one should focus the mind on the image and form of the Lord, His auspicious activities, His delightful sport, and His role as Gītā-ācārya ." *"Lord Caitanya, during His visit to a temple in South India, found a man scanning the pages of the Bhagavad*-gītā without seeming to read the verses, and inquiring, the same found that the person was illiterate, and yet he was turning the pages of the Gītā at the request of his master, because as he did so, he had a vision of Śrī Kṛṣṇa expounding spiritual knowledge to Arjuna on the Kurukṣetra battlefield. Thereupon Caitanya embraced him in all admiration for his devotion, sincere faith and guidance of the spiritual master as necessary for God realization." They give very nice article. You have seen it? Śyāmasundara: No. (pause) He doesn't give the receipt number. He says . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . all the educated men. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the, who is called, elite society appreciate, then ordinary people will always appreciate. Before my Guru Maharaja, and Bhaktisiddhānta's . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Lord Caitanya's cult was considered by the higher class as it is the business of the low*-class men. Even Vivekananda remarked that, "It is the religion of sex." Because they saw that the sahajiyās , they discussed this rāsa-līlā and have illicit connection with woman. So therefore they took it as the religion of sex. Vivekananda. But now . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . the bhakti marg was right now considered as the job of the elders. *Prabhupāda: These were the remark. And now we have to establish this, that this is the only way to reach God. You have to become scholar, philosopher, worker, practical behavior. And that is the fact. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)? You have to prove it. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2): "Except surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, anything, that is simply cheating," cheating, kaitavaḥ , cheating religion. This is challenged by God, cheating religion. We have to save people from the cheating type of religion, cheating type of guru, cheating type of dharma. It is so important movement. So this is very good time, this high-court judges. And yesterday also, I blessed before them what, vicāra . You marked? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.1). Vicāra means statement. "Just try to understand the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and give your judgement." This is not a sentimental, as people take it as a sentimental. No. Most scientific, logical. So how they like that slides? Girirāja: Very much. I think we may have a brief slide show tonight also. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got all the slides? Girirāja: We have many slides of paintings, of different activities . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . have no attachment. These are all nonsense. It cannot be poisoned. A living being, to become desireless, how you can? I am living. I am not a dead body. Desire should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Attachment should be for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have now attachment for sense gratification, desire for sense gratification. This has to be changed. Purification of desire, purification of attachment. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Eyes, because it is diseased, should not be plucked out. This is nonsense. Cure the eyes of the disease, then you will see things right. The Māyāvādī philosophy is pluck out the eyes. Buddha philosophy is make it zero. That is also same thing, plucking out. Our philosophy is, "No. Cure it." That is the difference. It is very simple. Which one is better, the eyes? Just like a man is suffering from disease, fever, and doctor gives him medicine—he dies. Then the patient's guardian says, "Sir, he is dead now. You have given some medicine, he is dead." "That's all right, fever is gone. Fever is gone. Never mind he is dead." (laughter) (laughs) These rascal philosophy statement is like that. Make zero. Make imperson. Then the difficulties of personality . . . because they have got very bad experience of personality here. He had to become minister, he has become king and this and that, householder, all botheration. So make imperson. Let go. That's all. Negation. Personality is giving us trouble, so make imperson. God must be imperson, because as soon as we have person, there is trouble. They have got experience. But the Buddha's philosophy is there and as soon as they . . . (indistinct) . . . make it zero, then there is no pains and pleasure. This body, because Buddha philosophy does not give any idea of soul—bodily concept. So body is combination of matter, so dismantle this combination. Just like you have got a skyscraper building, so you have to pay tax. Break it, make it zero, so no tax. This is philosophy. Do you follow it? You have got a very big building, so you have to pay tax. To save tax, break the building. No more taxes. No more pains and pleasure. No more anxiety. That is Buddha philosophy. That means these philosophers are called fools and rascal, less intelligent. Would you like this advice, that you have got a big building, just like in London there is a big building, and he has got a policy anyway that he does not allow any tenant? Largest building in London—to save tax. But his point is different. In Bengali there is adage that, corer upar rag kore, ghure bhat khao, (angered at the thief, turn around and eat rice)—that a man's utensils were stolen by a thief, so he became very angry, that thief has taken all my utensil. All right, I shall not purchase utensil. I shall take food on the floor. I shall take food on the floor. No more utensils. I shall not keep plates and utensil any more. I shall take food on the floor." This is philosophy. (break) *We don't believe in so*-called nonviolence, non attachment, zero. No. We believe in everything, if there is required violence, fight, "Yes, come on." Yes. Arjuna. No consideration, "The other side my grandfather, my father, or this or that. Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Kill them all." . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, at dead of night they went with Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa wants us. Oh, we don't care for all this social convention. Kick out. So let's go" (phone ringing) Prahlāda Mahārāja, Nṛsiṁha-deva killing his father, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is taking pleasure in killing my father. That's all right. (laughter) That I don't protest." He could have said, "My dear Lord, please do not kill my father." Immediately he would have been saved . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Could be Puri Maharaja. *Prabhupāda: Go, go, go. So that is our point. Bali Mahārāja, he saw that his so*-called Śukrācārya, caste goswāmī , is checking him to offer anything to Vāmanadev, "Oh, I don't like you. I reject you. I don't want a spiritual master like you, who is checking me for offering to Kṛṣṇa." This is a mahājana . Prahlāda Mahārāja became mahājana . gopīs became the topmost devotee. Why? For Kṛṣṇa. They neglected any social convention, this, that. "No. Kṛṣṇa must be satisfied." That is the most . . . that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) (telephone conversation) Hello. Who is there? Puri Mahārāja? Ah, daṇḍavats, daṇḍavats. Ta bhalo achen to? Cithi pan ni sejonyeito telegram dilam. Ta amra ta . . . ah . . . krpay hocche sob, ar apnake Mayapure yete hobe amar sange. Hya. Ar ye amader Nityananda prabhu, apni, apnar sob . . . huh? Hya . . . besh. (I hope you are doing well. Because you haven't received the letter, that's why again I sent a telegram. We . . . huh . . . everything is happening by mercy . . . and you have to go to Mayapur with me. Yes. Our Nityananda prabhu and you, all your . . . what? Hah . . . as you say.) (break) Śyāmasundara: So we, we should get tickets today . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Śyāmasundara: . . . for leaving on . . . Prabhupāda: On seventeenth. Śyāmasundara: . . . seventeenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Yes. We shall pay for his expenditure. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And Nityananda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Did he say anything about that Nit . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, Nityananda is coming today. Śyāmasundara: Good. Prabhupāda: I have asked . . . (indistinct) . . . he should also go. So now on seventeenth we must start. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Make arrangements like that. Śyāmasundara: Some party can go tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Rest on seventeenth. And we will see if there is airline connection. Prabhupāda: If airline is not possible, maybe will go by train or . . . (break) . . . preach like this. Mālatī: Haribol. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughing) Mālatī: Jaya. It was very good meeting. Prabhupāda: That for the fifty years they are here, nobody can find. Gaudīya Maṭha is known as Indian temple. That's all. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No preaching. Śyāmasundara: He's making publicity up there? Prabhupāda: Yes. He can take all these placards. Yes. We have got remaining placards? Śyāmasundara: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: Only is, point is, "Make it zero. And so long you are living, enjoy as you like, because afterwards you are going to be zero. There is no responsibility. So you gratify your senses to the fullest extent." That's all. Just like—I do not know—I have never hanged—but anyone who is going to be hanged, he is offered that, "Whatever you want, you can enjoy." Is that . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . fact? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So their philosophy, "You are going to be hanged. Now you can enjoy whatever you like." So this philosophy then. Because the Māyāvādī philosophy is impersonal, zero, therefore people don't care for sin. "Enjoy life. You shall finish." Gurudas: There's the story of a man who is being hanged, and they said: "You can have whatever you want." So he said: "Whatever I want?" So they said: "Yes." So he says: "I want ten more years life." Prabhupāda: We don't say whatever you want. You enjoy. Gratify your senses as much as you like. *Mālatī: Prabhupāda? What class of impersonalists are worshiping the Puruṣa*-sūkta ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mālatī: What class of impersonalists are worshiping the universal form? Prabhupāda: Well, universal form is not impersonal. That is personal. That is also manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Mālatī: But you say that . . . in one of your purports you are saying that the impersonalists are worshiping the universal form. Prabhupāda: They are advised. Śyāmasundara: Ah, advised to worship. Mālatī: They are advised to worship. Prabhupāda: Nobody is advised to . . . there is no worship for impersonalists. There is no . . . Mālatī: Oh. (pause) (end) Conversation -- February 15, 1972, Madras Prabhupāda: (reading) ". . . (indistinct) . . . from Him, his mind becomes totally associated with Him. His Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda in his discourse at the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sunday, said there was no rigid rules and regulations for chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, nor does it require formal education. While uttering the name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa one should focus the mind on the image and form of the Lord, His auspicious activities, His delightful sport, and His role as Gītā-ācārya ." *"Lord Caitanya, during His visit to a temple in South India, found a man scanning the pages of the Bhagavad*-gītā without seeming to read the verses, and inquiring, the same found that the person was illiterate, and yet he was turning the pages of the Gītā at the request of his master, because as he did so, he had a vision of Śrī Kṛṣṇa expounding spiritual knowledge to Arjuna on the Kurukṣetra battlefield. Thereupon Caitanya embraced him in all admiration for his devotion, sincere faith and guidance of the spiritual master as necessary for God realization." They give very nice article. You have seen it? Śyāmasundara: No. (pause) He doesn't give the receipt number. He says . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . all the educated men. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the, who is called, elite society appreciate, then ordinary people will always appreciate. Before my Guru Maharaja, and Bhaktisiddhānta's . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Lord Caitanya's cult was considered by the higher class as it is the business of the low*-class men. Even Vivekananda remarked that, "It is the religion of sex." Because they saw that the sahajiyās , they discussed this rāsa-līlā and have illicit connection with woman. So therefore they took it as the religion of sex. Vivekananda. But now . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . the bhakti marg was right now considered as the job of the elders. *Prabhupāda: These were the remark. And now we have to establish this, that this is the only way to reach God. You have to become scholar, philosopher, worker, practical behavior. And that is the fact. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)? You have to prove it. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2): "Except surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, anything, that is simply cheating," cheating, kaitavaḥ , cheating religion. This is challenged by God, cheating religion. We have to save people from the cheating type of religion, cheating type of guru, cheating type of dharma. It is so important movement. So this is very good time, this high-court judges. And yesterday also, I blessed before them what, vicāra . You marked? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.1). Vicāra means statement. "Just try to understand the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and give your judgement." This is not a sentimental, as people take it as a sentimental. No. Most scientific, logical. So how they like that slides? Girirāja: Very much. I think we may have a brief slide show tonight also. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got all the slides? Girirāja: We have many slides of paintings, of different activities . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . have no attachment. These are all nonsense. It cannot be poisoned. A living being, to become desireless, how you can? I am living. I am not a dead body. Desire should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Attachment should be for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have now attachment for sense gratification, desire for sense gratification. This has to be changed. Purification of desire, purification of attachment. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Eyes, because it is diseased, should not be plucked out. This is nonsense. Cure the eyes of the disease, then you will see things right. The Māyāvādī philosophy is pluck out the eyes. Buddha philosophy is make it zero. That is also same thing, plucking out. Our philosophy is, "No. Cure it." That is the difference. It is very simple. Which one is better, the eyes? Just like a man is suffering from disease, fever, and doctor gives him medicine—he dies. Then the patient's guardian says, "Sir, he is dead now. You have given some medicine, he is dead." "That's all right, fever is gone. Fever is gone. Never mind he is dead." (laughter) (laughs) These rascal philosophy statement is like that. Make zero. Make imperson. Then the difficulties of personality . . . because they have got very bad experience of personality here. He had to become minister, he has become king and this and that, householder, all botheration. So make imperson. Let go. That's all. Negation. Personality is giving us trouble, so make imperson. God must be imperson, because as soon as we have person, there is trouble. They have got experience. But the Buddha's philosophy is there and as soon as they . . . (indistinct) . . . make it zero, then there is no pains and pleasure. This body, because Buddha philosophy does not give any idea of soul—bodily concept. So body is combination of matter, so dismantle this combination. Just like you have got a skyscraper building, so you have to pay tax. Break it, make it zero, so no tax. This is philosophy. Do you follow it? You have got a very big building, so you have to pay tax. To save tax, break the building. No more taxes. No more pains and pleasure. No more anxiety. That is Buddha philosophy. That means these philosophers are called fools and rascal, less intelligent. Would you like this advice, that you have got a big building, just like in London there is a big building, and he has got a policy anyway that he does not allow any tenant? Largest building in London—to save tax. But his point is different. In Bengali there is adage that, corer upar rag kore, ghure bhat khao, (angered at the thief, turn around and eat rice)—that a man's utensils were stolen by a thief, so he became very angry, that thief has taken all my utensil. All right, I shall not purchase utensil. I shall take food on the floor. I shall take food on the floor. No more utensils. I shall not keep plates and utensil any more. I shall take food on the floor." This is philosophy. (break) *We don't believe in so*-called nonviolence, non attachment, zero. No. We believe in everything, if there is required violence, fight, "Yes, come on." Yes. Arjuna. No consideration, "The other side my grandfather, my father, or this or that. Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Kill them all." . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, at dead of night they went with Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa wants us. Oh, we don't care for all this social convention. Kick out. So let's go" (phone ringing) Prahlāda Mahārāja, Nṛsiṁha-deva killing his father, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is taking pleasure in killing my father. That's all right. (laughter) That I don't protest." He could have said, "My dear Lord, please do not kill my father." Immediately he would have been saved . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Could be Puri Maharaja. *Prabhupāda: Go, go, go. So that is our point. Bali Mahārāja, he saw that his so*-called Śukrācārya, caste goswāmī , is checking him to offer anything to Vāmanadev, "Oh, I don't like you. I reject you. I don't want a spiritual master like you, who is checking me for offering to Kṛṣṇa." This is a mahājana . Prahlāda Mahārāja became mahājana . gopīs became the topmost devotee. Why? For Kṛṣṇa. They neglected any social convention, this, that. "No. Kṛṣṇa must be satisfied." That is the most . . . that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) (telephone conversation) Hello. Who is there? Puri Mahārāja? Ah, daṇḍavats, daṇḍavats. Ta bhalo achen to? Cithi pan ni sejonyeito telegram dilam. Ta amra ta . . . ah . . . krpay hocche sob, ar apnake Mayapure yete hobe amar sange. Hya. Ar ye amader Nityananda prabhu, apni, apnar sob . . . huh? Hya . . . besh. (I hope you are doing well. Because you haven't received the letter, that's why again I sent a telegram. We . . . huh . . . everything is happening by mercy . . . and you have to go to Mayapur with me. Yes. Our Nityananda prabhu and you, all your . . . what? Hah . . . as you say.) (break) Śyāmasundara: So we, we should get tickets today . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Śyāmasundara: . . . for leaving on . . . Prabhupāda: On seventeenth. Śyāmasundara: . . . seventeenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Yes. We shall pay for his expenditure. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And Nityananda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Did he say anything about that Nit . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, Nityananda is coming today. Śyāmasundara: Good. Prabhupāda: I have asked . . . (indistinct) . . . he should also go. So now on seventeenth we must start. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Make arrangements like that. Śyāmasundara: Some party can go tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Rest on seventeenth. And we will see if there is airline connection. Prabhupāda: If airline is not possible, maybe will go by train or . . . (break) . . . preach like this. Mālatī: Haribol. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughing) Mālatī: Jaya. It was very good meeting. Prabhupāda: That for the fifty years they are here, nobody can find. Gaudīya Maṭha is known as Indian temple. That's all. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No preaching. Śyāmasundara: He's making publicity up there? Prabhupāda: Yes. He can take all these placards. Yes. We have got remaining placards? Śyāmasundara: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: Only is, point is, "Make it zero. And so long you are living, enjoy as you like, because afterwards you are going to be zero. There is no responsibility. So you gratify your senses to the fullest extent." That's all. Just like—I do not know—I have never hanged—but anyone who is going to be hanged, he is offered that, "Whatever you want, you can enjoy." Is that . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . fact? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So their philosophy, "You are going to be hanged. Now you can enjoy whatever you like." So this philosophy then. Because the Māyāvādī philosophy is impersonal, zero, therefore people don't care for sin. "Enjoy life. You shall finish." Gurudas: There's the story of a man who is being hanged, and they said: "You can have whatever you want." So he said: "Whatever I want?" So they said: "Yes." So he says: "I want ten more years life." Prabhupāda: We don't say whatever you want. You enjoy. Gratify your senses as much as you like. *Mālatī: Prabhupāda? What class of impersonalists are worshiping the Puruṣa*-sūkta ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mālatī: What class of impersonalists are worshiping the universal form? Prabhupāda: Well, universal form is not impersonal. That is personal. That is also manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Mālatī: But you say that . . . in one of your purports you are saying that the impersonalists are worshiping the universal form. Prabhupāda: They are advised. Śyāmasundara: Ah, advised to worship. Mālatī: They are advised to worship. Prabhupāda: Nobody is advised to . . . there is no worship for impersonalists. There is no . . . Mālatī: Oh. (pause) (end) Conversation Hindi -- February 16, 1972, Madras Prabhupāda: HINDI TRANSLATION प्रभुपाद: श्याम को सवेरे, आधा घंटा श्याम को, आधा घंटा सवेरे हरी नाम कीजिये, ये शास्त्र का निर्देश है; ये हमलोग का प्रचार का विषय है। हमलोग भी ये कहते हैं। निवेदन करता हूँ की हरी नाम जप कीजिये और लाभ उठाइये। बोलिये आपका कुछ प्रश्न है तो पूछिए। गेस्ट: ये की जो आम आदमी करता है, वो भगवान कहता ही है की आप इसको । प्रभुपाद: ये भी तो भगवान कहता है हरे कृष्णा बोलना। क्यों नहीं बोलते हैं? गेस्ट: नहीं नहीं। मैं आपके आंसर चाहता हूँ की जो आप करता हैं, वो तो भगवान कहता हैं। प्रभुपाद: वो जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट है वो ज़बरदस्ती जो कह दिया उसको काम कराता है। कहता है की नहीं? बोलिये गेस्ट: हाँ। प्रभुपाद: वो कराता है न वो कर रहा है। जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट का क्या ज़रुरत है उसको बोलता है ए तुम करो नहीं तो मारेंगे थप्पड़। वो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट कराता है न वो करता है अपना कर्म से? बोलिये, जवाब दीजिये। गेस्ट: मैं तो आपको फॉलो (नॉट क्लियर)। प्रभुपाद: नहीं, देखिये जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट खड़ा हो करके एक आदमी को बोलता है (नॉट क्लियर)। उसको कराता है न वो करता है? वो ऐसा कुछ काम किया है जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट को उससे कराना पड़ता है। गेस्ट: वो तो बात ठीक है। प्रभुपाद: वो ही बात है। आप कुछ काम ऐसे कीजिये जिसका फल स्वरुप आपको काम और कुछ करने पड़ेगा। वो भगवान कह रहा है, और भगवान का एजेंट कराता है। ये नही है की भगवान एक आदमी को बोलता है की तू चोरी कर और एक आदमी को बोलता है की तू साधु हो जा। ये बात नहीं है। जो चोरी किया था उसको बोलता है और तू चोरी कर और उसको पीटा जाये खूब अच्छी तरह से। गेस्ट: नहीं तो उसका कौन रेस्पोंसिबल हुआ जिस आदमी ने चोरी किया। प्रभुपाद: रेस्पोंसिबल तो वो ही हुआ जो चोरी किया था तभी तो उसको तोडना पड़ता है। जो चोरी नहीं किया उसको नहीं पड़ता है। Conversation Hindi -- February 16, 1972, Madras Prabhupāda: HINDI TRANSLATION प्रभुपाद: श्याम को सवेरे, आधा घंटा श्याम को, आधा घंटा सवेरे हरी नाम कीजिये, ये शास्त्र का निर्देश है; ये हमलोग का प्रचार का विषय है। हमलोग भी ये कहते हैं। निवेदन करता हूँ की हरी नाम जप कीजिये और लाभ उठाइये। बोलिये आपका कुछ प्रश्न है तो पूछिए। गेस्ट: ये की जो आम आदमी करता है, वो भगवान कहता ही है की आप इसको । प्रभुपाद: ये भी तो भगवान कहता है हरे कृष्णा बोलना। क्यों नहीं बोलते हैं? गेस्ट: नहीं नहीं। मैं आपके आंसर चाहता हूँ की जो आप करता हैं, वो तो भगवान कहता हैं। प्रभुपाद: वो जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट है वो ज़बरदस्ती जो कह दिया उसको काम कराता है। कहता है की नहीं? बोलिये गेस्ट: हाँ। प्रभुपाद: वो कराता है न वो कर रहा है। जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट का क्या ज़रुरत है उसको बोलता है ए तुम करो नहीं तो मारेंगे थप्पड़। वो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट कराता है न वो करता है अपना कर्म से? बोलिये, जवाब दीजिये। गेस्ट: मैं तो आपको फॉलो (नॉट क्लियर)। प्रभुपाद: नहीं, देखिये जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट खड़ा हो करके एक आदमी को बोलता है (नॉट क्लियर)। उसको कराता है न वो करता है? वो ऐसा कुछ काम किया है जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट को उससे कराना पड़ता है। गेस्ट: वो तो बात ठीक है। प्रभुपाद: वो ही बात है। आप कुछ काम ऐसे कीजिये जिसका फल स्वरुप आपको काम और कुछ करने पड़ेगा। वो भगवान कह रहा है, और भगवान का एजेंट कराता है। ये नही है की भगवान एक आदमी को बोलता है की तू चोरी कर और एक आदमी को बोलता है की तू साधु हो जा। ये बात नहीं है। जो चोरी किया था उसको बोलता है और तू चोरी कर और उसको पीटा जाये खूब अच्छी तरह से। गेस्ट: नहीं तो उसका कौन रेस्पोंसिबल हुआ जिस आदमी ने चोरी किया। प्रभुपाद: रेस्पोंसिबल तो वो ही हुआ जो चोरी किया था तभी तो उसको तोडना पड़ता है। जो चोरी नहीं किया उसको नहीं पड़ता है। Conversation 2 with Bob Cohen -- February 28, 1972, Mayapur Prabhupāda: You are feeling warm? Bob: Just tight. Prabhupāda: Too tight. Bob: I was cold before. (break) Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions. *Prabhupāda: No, that is my mission, that people should understand the science of God. Because I am convinced that it's a fact, that without again cooperating with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I give this example many times. Just like a screw from the machine fallen down, it has no value. The same screw, when it is again attached with the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Without God, as part*-and-parcel small screw, what is the value? No value. We should again come back to the position of becoming a screw. That is our mission. Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. Well, his reason for coming, he said, you may find humorous, was to come . . . he heard the hippies were in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: He heard that hippie . . . (break) . . . I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. And he had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he'll come back tomorrow to see devotees. But let me tell you. This is confusing. When he was young . . . Prabhupāda: He's Indian? He's Indian or . . .? Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well. When he was young, he said he worshiped Kālī every day very vigorously. But then the floods all came, and the floods came, and the people saw hardship. And now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn't think of what to say to him to add religion to his life, to add God to his life. He says . . . I asked him . . . He says: "After the hereafter," he says, after he dies, he said: "Maybe I'll become part of God, maybe not," he says, but he can't worry about it now. He says he's tried this religious experience, it didn't work. And one reason I ask this is when I go back to America a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kālī or other kinds of religion that they've experienced, doesn't work. And I don't know what to say to them to convince them that it's worth trying. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You do not try to convince him at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself. Bob: (laughs) Yes, yes. I did . . . I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out as he was leaving down the road I met him again and talked, "Come back," but . . . oh, I see. Prabhupāda: You first of all be convinced, and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success. Janma sārthaka kari . First make your life perfect, and then try to make others'. Preach. (break) Bob: The devotees have said to me that without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa all the time, you cannot be happy. Without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy. Prabhupāda: At times. Not always. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you be Kṛṣṇa conscious you'll feel always happy. Bob: Oh. (laughter) They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's fact. Just like if you are an animal of this land, and if you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in the water in any condition. When you're again taken up to the land, then you'll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are thrown. The same example: The machine part and parcel without the machine has no value. But when it is put again into the machine it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we must join Kṛṣṇa. So you can join immediately with Kṛṣṇa by your consciousness. Simply thinking that, "I am Kṛṣṇa's; Kṛṣṇa mine." That's all. Bob: What is that . . . Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine." Bob: Mind, yes. Prabhupāda: "Mine. My Kṛṣṇa." Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine. Kṛṣṇa is mine, and I am Kṛṣṇa's." That is our actual position. Bob: We are part of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, because everything is generated by the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And everything is energy of Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . tomorrow fasting. Yes. Bob: Tomorrow's fasting? Acyutānanda: Tomorrow we fast. Up until evening. Prabhupāda: Up to evening. Acyutānanda: Until the moon comes. Then we take ekādaśī or feast? Prabhupāda: You can feast. Acyutānanda: Feast. So we'll fast up until the rising of the moon and then take feast, full prasādam . (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it happens that one day out of the week all the other . . . all the shops close except for one. I've experienced in India that all the . . . (break) Bob: . . . the people coming and jumping on each other trying to get . . . afraid that the prasādam would finish before they got served. Prabhupāda: No, assure them that we can . . . "Don't be jumping. We shall supply you." What can be done? (break) . . . the place where we shall perform sacrifice, fire sacrifice, the tablet should be taken there and we shall worship. And then we place it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll carry the tablet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . to the sacrifice place. Prabhupāda: We shall place the in . . . what is called, paraphernalia? And then begin. So ten feet deep and six feet wide. So you have ordered for bricks and cement? (loudspeaker in background) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was speaking with Mr. Sanyal, and he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Sanyal he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks here, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: So try to find out. (break) Devotee: . . . think that acquiring the land, and the other . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Then you can talk. (break) (a devotee is speaking in Bengali over the loudspeaker and Prabhupāda mimics him) (laughter) Devotee: Mahāṁsa. Prabhupāda: Mahāṁsa? Who is speaking? Mahāṁsa speaking or . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Bob: For now? Is it just for now? Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have one question. What is the purpose of service minus devotion? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is not service, that is business. (laughter) Just like we have employed some contractor. That is not service; that is business. Is it not? Indian man: Certainly. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like sometimes they advertise, "Our customers are our master." Is it not? Sometimes advertise. So this is business, but it is a flowery language only that, "Our customers are our masters." Because nobody is a qualified customer unless he pays. Hmm? *But service is not like that. Service, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām (CC Antya 20.47): "Oh, You do whatever You like; still, You are my worshipable Lord." That is service. "I don't ask any return from You." That is service. When you expect some return, that is business. Devotee: Money. (pause) Prabhupāda: Very nice road. (break) Bob: I wish to ask you to advise me on how I can come to feel closer to God. I'll be leaving you soon, and I'm . . . with you . . . Prabhupāda: You have to purify. Bob: Somewhat. But let me say I come to the temple at times and then I leave, and I'm not sure how much I take with me. Prabhupāda: It will not take much time. Within six months you'll realize. But we have to follow the regulative principle. Then it will be all right. Just like these boys and girls are doing. Just see the girl, how she's chanting always. All our girls is . . . Bob: Yeah, I've seen. *Prabhupāda: They have no tendency for going to cinema or going to hotel. No. Everything all stopped. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ. Anartha means unnecessary things, all rubbish. Bob: I feel that when I go back, though . . . Prabhupāda: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Śuddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like if you don't cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you'll get. *Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body. No. Therefore, for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma*-saukhyaṁ anantam (SB 5.5.1). Unless you purify your existence, your hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible. Bob: When I go, I go back to my job in New York, I hope I'll become purer, but I'm sure that I won't become as pure as your devotees here. I don't see myself doing that. Prabhupāda: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning. Now they are pure. Similarly, you can become pure. Just like in your childhood age you were not educated; now you are educated. Bob: So what are the things that I may do? See, if when I go back I must . . . Prabhupāda: Where you go back? Bob: I'll be going back to Chaibasa, Bihar, and to my work there. Prabhupāda: What is there in Chaibasa? Bob: That's where I do my teaching. I live there with . . . Prabhupāda: So better do not teach. Because you do not know what to teach. Bob: I have . . . I'm actually, I'll be going . . . I don't like this so much, and I'll be returning to America in May. But while I'm here, this is my agreement to staying in India, that I . . . Prabhupāda: (referring to microphone) It will not stay. No, if you are serious, you can keep yourself pure anywhere. It doesn't matter whether you stay in America or India. But you must know how to keep yourself purified. That's all. Bob: You mean by following these principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I went to America. So either in America or in India, I am the same man. Bob: I have tried somewhat to follow since I met you the first time. Prabhupāda: That follow . . . you must strictly follow if you are serious. Bob: Maybe . . . okay, maybe what I say now is the most foolish of all I've said, but let me tell you how I feel. Prabhupāda: No, no, not foolish. I don't say foolish, but imperfect. Bob: Okay, imperfect. But let me tell you. I feel that right now I admire and respect your devotees, but I don't feel as if I'm part of them or even a great desire to be part of them. I feel that I just want to do what is right and come closer to God, and if I just go to a better life next time, I'd be satisfied. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Bob: Maybe that's just material clinging. Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu . But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. *Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma*-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam , "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many . . . so now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt . . . Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existentional body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body, there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not? Bob: Put the iron rod into fire . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become fire. Bob: Yes . . . Prabhupāda: Although iron rod. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this body, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, it will act as spiritual, although it is material body. The same example: iron rod, when it is red hot, it is not longer iron rod, although it is iron rod. You can catch it as iron rod, but touch anywhere, it will burn. It has got the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become spiritualized. You'll act spiritually. No more material demands. Bob: How do I do this? Prabhupāda: This process, as they are doing. You have seen. These boys are, our six boys, they are now initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant this beads. Very easy. Bob: Well, um, but . . . see, when I'm back in Bihar and following my lifestyle there, I . . . if I follow all these regulative principles . . . some I follow now, but not all. But if I follow all . . . Prabhupāda: "Some" means? Bob: Some . . . Prabhupāda: There are only four regulative principles. "Some" means three, or two? Bob: Two or three. Prabhupāda: So why not other one? Bob: No, no, I mean I follow one or two now. One or two now I follow. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why not the other three? What is the difficulty? Bob: Erm . . . Prabhupāda: Which one you follow? Bob: Which one I follow? I am almost vegetarian, but I eat eggs. Prabhupāda: That is also not fully. (laughs) Bob: No, not even fully. But since last time I've become vegetarian, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Vegetarian is no qualification. Bob: Not much. Prabhupāda: You see, vegetarian, the pigeon, pigeon is vegetarian. The monkey is vegetarian, but most rubbish creature. Bob: Well . . . Prabhupāda: A monkey is vegetarian, naked sannyāsī , lives in the forest—the most mischievous. Bob: I felt that it was a little bit of progress, because it was somewhat difficult at first, then easy, and I had returned to . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can stick to all regulative principles, provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Otherwise it is not possible. Bob: Yeah, but this is it. I have . . . when I'm back in Bihar and my friends may say . . . well, we're sitting in the evening, and there's nothing to do but fight mosquitoes, and they'll say: "How about smoking some marijuana?" And I say: "Sure, there's nothing else to do," and then I sit down and I enjoy myself for the evening. Now, we did this . . . we got carried away. We were doing it every day and realized we were hurting ourselves and stopped, but still, on occasion we do that . . . *Prabhupāda: You have to live with us. Then your friends will not ask you, "What about marijuana?" (Bob laughs) Keep the association of devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-ras . . . (SB 3.25.25). We are opening centers to give chance people to associate with us. Why we have taken so much land? Providing for those who are seriously desirous. They will come and live with us. Association is very influential. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ (BG 2.62). If you associate with drunkards, you become a drunkard. If you associate with sādhu , then you become sādhu . Śyāmasundara: He can come and stay with you in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He could come and stay in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can stay with us in Bombay. But here he wants friend, marijuana. That is the difficulty. Bob: Um, let me ask you about something else. Then maybe I'll come back to this, because I'm still . . . I find that I think of myself too much, and this way you can't think of God so much. One can't think of God. I think of myself in too many places. How can I forget about myself so I can concentrate on other more important things? Prabhupāda: As they have done. Bob: (laughs) You are saying to me that my path . . . I think what you're saying is my path to purity is to become a devotee. Prabhupāda: Do you hesitate? Bob: Well, I . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very difficult to become a devotee? Bob: For myself . . . it is . . . I don't feel so much the desire. I have . . . first the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, means giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have . . . Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material life? I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual? Bob: Material. Prabhupāda: Then how we give up material life? Bob: I think how I interpreted it was a desire for material gains. Prabhupāda: That is material life. Bob: You're working towards material gains, not giving up all material. Prabhupāda: Material life means when you desire to gratify your senses. That is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. Instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others' activities? We are using everything: table, chair, bed, this tape recorder, typewriter. So what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Ah . . . this I see. The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures that they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures. But see, I haven't . . . Prabhupāda: Spiritual kinds of pleasure means when you desire to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Just like example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. (break) Bob: Spiritual pleasure, then, is in pleasing God. Prabhupāda: Spiritual pleasure means pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Pleasing of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And material pleasure means pleasure of senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you try simply to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Bob: I had viewed this as . . . my thought of pleasing God was to do . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, don't manufacture your ways of pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose if I want to please you, then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture service. That is not pleasing you. Suppose if I want a glass of water. And if you manufacture that, "Swāmījī will be more pleased if I give a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I please you?" And what I order, if you do that, that will please me. Bob: And pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is . . . pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The devotee means who is always pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He has no other business. That is devotee. Bob: And, can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly, just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently. And once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. And maybe I don't chant properly. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has got process. You have to adopt the process. Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is when . . . more you become purified, you feel ecstasy. But this chanting process is purifying process. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this afternoon we were discussing about austerities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: About austerities. If you don't practice voluntarily austerities, then you must involuntarily practice some austerities. Prabhupāda: Yes, under the direction of spiritual master. You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master you have to carry out the order. That is austerity. Śyāmasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to. Prabhupāda: No, because . . . you have got . . . you have surrendered to a spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don't like, you have to do it, to please me. Even you don't like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says: "Today is fasting," so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (loudspeaker in background) Śyāmasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don't want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they're forced to austerities. Prabhupāda: That is forced austerity, that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . if you don't undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity, but man can accept austerity. (break) That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner's shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money, so he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore animal cannot undergo austerity. (indistinct discussion about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. Aiye, aiye, aiye . (break) Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and Kṛṣṇa sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That's all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities, chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? . . . (indistinct) . . . I see austerity—call my mother. Bob: What is that? *Prabhupāda: Suppose we have this nice foodstuff this mother has brought. So those who are not following austerities, they cannot expect. But because we are following austerity, Kṛṣṇa sends us nice thing. So we are not loser. When you become Kṛṣṇa*-ized, then you'll get more comfort than at the present moment. That's a fact. Bob: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulty. When, before taking sannyāsa , I was living in Delhi, these boys were taking care of me. Yes. So I had no difficulty, although I was living alone. Śyāmasundara: If you don't accept a spiritual discipline, then nature forces so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Māyā is imposing so many difficulties, but as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, no more imposition. Śyāmasundara: We are so foolish that we are always thinking, "In the future I'll be happy." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is māyā , illusion. That is a ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass, he'll go. The ass is thinking, "Let me go forward little, and I shall get the ass, er, grass." But it is . . . one feet distant it always remains. That is ass*-ism. (laughter) That is not . . . everyone is thinking, "Let me go a little forward, and I'll get it." (break) . . . get it, be very happy. (break) Bob: I, I thank you so much for . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm? (break) Don't talk l*-e-a-v-e, but talk l-i-v-e. Bob: I, I, I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But . . . Prabhupāda: Don't return. Bob: I should stay tomorrow, here. Prabhupāda: Stay here. Bob: You tell me to, I'll stay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're a very good boy. Bob: Okay. Thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: It is very simple. The living entities, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, they are in this material world. "Kṛṣṇa" means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes, everything. Bob: What was that last? Prabhupāda: Pastimes. Bob: Pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you speak of king, it means king's government, king's palace, king's queen, king's son, secretaries, military strength, everything. Is it not? Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Kṛṣṇa, means all energies of Kṛṣṇa. That is complete by saying "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa." Rādhā represents all the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, the living entities are also included, because the living entities are energies, different energy of Kṛṣṇa—superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that means material existence. The whole world is not serving Kṛṣṇa. They are serving Kṛṣṇa in a different way. They are serving Kṛṣṇa indirectly. Just like disobedient citizens, they serve the government indirectly. They have come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So in the prison house they're forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly, all the living entities here, they're godless. Either by ignorance or by his will, he doesn't like to accept the supremacy of God. Demonic. So we are trying to bring them in their original condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (break) Bob: I'd like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about, just medicine. I went to go . . . I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn't go in the water. Some felt I should, because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn't because I have a cold. And we were talking, and I don't understand. Some . . . devotees . . . do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past? Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Bob: But when one is . . . Prabhupāda: Any kind of distress we suffer, it is due to our impious activities in the past. Bob: But when one is removed from karmic influence . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Bob: . . . does he still get sick? Prabhupāda: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force. What is called physically, this . . .? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a devotee who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, even he's found that he's suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Bob: But what about a perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee? *Prabhupāda: Perfected soul means twenty*-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection. Transcendental position. Perfection means to be engaged in his original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , "Anyone who comes to Me, that is the . . ." Saṁsiddhiḥ labhate param. Saṁsiddhi . Perfection, complete perfection. Saṁsiddhi. Siddhi and saṁsiddhi . Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization. And saṁsiddhi means devotion, after Brahman realization. Bob: Could you just say that last thing again, please? Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi . Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sam means complete. Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And siddhi means perfection. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that one who goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has attained the complete perfection. So perfection means when one realizes that he's not this body, he's spirit soul. Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). That is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And saṁsiddhi means after Brahman realization, when one is engaged in devotional service. Therefore one who is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called saṁsiddhi . Bob: I, I, I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: This is a result of your past karma ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Prabhupāda: Yes, escapes. No more karma . For a devotee, no more karma reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee, and you . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, I don't consider I am the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! No! Prabhupāda: You are the best devotee. Bob: (laughter) Oh, no! But lets see, you say, what you say . . . it always, always seems right. Prabhupāda: Yes, but . . . Bob: So then you must be the best devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes, the thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, he comes to the second*-class devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sees there is no need of preaching; everyone is devotee. (Bob laughs) Yes. He sees no more nondevotee, all devotee. *Yaśodānandana: Uttama*-adhikārī ? *Prabhupāda: Uttama*-adhikārī . But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī: She does not see anyone nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī. Bob: Who is this? Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort. Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: Anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the best devotee. He's better than me." And Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse. That is best devotee. But it is not to be imitated, "I have become best devotee. Therefore I have stopped." That is . . . actually, that is a different stage. So even the best devotee . . . *Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually, ācārya , but he comes to the second stage. Īśvare tad*-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca (SB 11.2.46). He . . . he has the vision of dviṣat , somebody envious of God. But it is not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious to God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, he says that "I am lowest than the worm in the stool." Bob: Who was saying this? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . the author of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha (CC Adi 5.205). He's not making a show; he's feeling like that, that "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service; I am not engaged." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I would have been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa I would have died long ago. I am living, that is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." That is the vision of the best devotee. He's so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he sees, "Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God." That is best devotee. Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody's liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Not . . . what is that word? Prabhupāda: Imitate. Devotees: Imitate, imitate. Bob: Oh, ācchā, ācchā , I see. Imitate. (pause) (break) Śyāmasundara: . . . you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that . . . couldn't sometimes disease be that, due to that, caused by that? *Prabhupāda: You see, Kṛṣṇa says that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So Kṛṣṇa's so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not the easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he's not Kṛṣṇa, so sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu forbidden that "Don't make many śiṣyas , many disciples." But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we suffer. But that's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many disciple is a risky job unless he's able to assimilate all the sins. (pause) *(break) . . . patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That is . . . that idea is in Bible. Just like Jesus Christ take all the sinful reaction of all people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of spiritual master. Because he's Kṛṣṇa's representative, so Kṛṣṇa takes all responsibility. Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, apāpa*-viddham . He cannot be attacked by any sinful reaction. But a living entity may be subjected sometimes, because he's small. Big fire, small fire. On a small fire if you put some big things, (chuckling) then the fire itself may be extinguished. In the big fire, whatever you put, that's all right. Finished. The big fire can consume anything. Bob: So Christ's suffering was of that nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Was Christ's suffering this . . . Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that he took the sinful reaction of all the people, therefore he suffered. Bob: I see. Prabhupāda: He said . . . that is the Bible, that he has taken all the sinful reactions of the people and he sacrificed his life. But these Christian people, they have made it a law that, "Christ will suffer and we shall do all nonsense." Such great fools they are. They are . . . "Let Jesus Christ make contract for taking all our sinful reaction, and we will go on with all nonsense." That is their religion. This . . . they are not in sense that, "Christ is so magnanimous that he took all our sins, and he has suffered. We stop all these sins!" They have not come to that sense. They have taking it very easily: "Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we do all nonsense." Is it not? Bob: Yes. It is so. Prabhupāda: Yes. They should have been ashamed that, "Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us. Instead of . . . we are continuing the sinful activities still. He asked everyone, 'Thou shall not kill,' and we are indulging in killing." And "Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us, take all the sinful reaction." This is going on. (break) . . . should be very much cautious that, "For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer. So I'll not commit a pinch of sinful action." That is duty of the disciple. After initiation, his all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, the spiritual master has to suffer. They should be sympathetic for this that, "For my sinful activities my spiritual master will suffer." (break) . . . attacked with some disease, it is due to the sinful activities of the disciples. Exactly like Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on account of the sinful activities of others. (break) . . . forbidden, "Don't make many disciples." But we do, because we are preaching. "Never mind, let us suffer; still, we shall accept." (break) . . . question was that when I suffer it is due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? Bob: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is my misdeed, that I accept a disciple who is nonsense. That is my misdeed. Bob: This happens on occasion? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is sure to happen, because we are accepting so many men. But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious that, "My spiritual master saved me. I may not put him again into these suffering." (break) When the spiritual master is in suffering, Kṛṣṇa saves him. Kṛṣṇa thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Kṛṣṇa is there. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not due to karma . (break) The pain is there sometimes so that the disciples may know that "Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master is suffering." (break) Bob: . . . very well now. Prabhupāda: I'm always well. (break) . . . well in this sense: even there is suffering, I know Kṛṣṇa will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities. (break) Bob: But let us say, when I . . . in the town I live in I drink boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water? If I have been good enough not to get a disease, then I may drink any water. And if I have been not doing proper, then I shall get diseased . . . Prabhupāda: So boiled water is any water also. Boiled water is included within any water. Bob: But, you see, I drink that to prevent disease. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you are in the material world, what is physical law, you cannot neglect that. Just like if you go to a jungle, there is tiger. It is known that it will attack you. Why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long he has got some physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: "Oh, I have become a devotee. I challenge everything." That is foolishness. Anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ (Brs. 1.2.255). *Viṣaya, this physical necessities, the devotee is advised to accept the necessities of life without any attachment. Physical law is take the boiled water. But if boiled water is not available, does it mean he'll not drink water? If it is not available, you drink ordinary water. (break) We take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . But while in touring, in hotels, sometimes we have to take some food in the hotel. Does it mean, "Oh, I do not take any foodstuff from the hotel. I shall starve"? If I starve, then I'll be weak, I cannot preach. (break) Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality, in that . . . Prabhupāda: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, he was . . . in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya . Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Surprise Sometimes we fast. That does not mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast. Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in full. Bob: . . . taste for different things? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Kṛṣṇa. Suppose I like this thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "No. You cannot use it." Then they are sacrificed. It is for Kṛṣṇa's sake. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe . Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if Kṛṣṇa does not like it, he won't take. Bob: And how does he know which food Kṛṣṇa likes him to take? Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra . You have to know from Kṛṣṇa. When you . . . just like what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the law books. Is it not? Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa likes and not likes, you get from the śāstra . You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). *He says definitely. Positively He says that, "I like these things." So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take prasādam . Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Therefore all the gopīs, they're trying to push Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuñja*-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā . That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gopī . All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti . That is called prema , love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this." Bob: There is . . . some prasādam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasādas are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat. Prabhupāda: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, you should accept everything. You cannot make, "I like this. I do not like this." That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination, that means you have not appreciated what is prasāda . (pause) Devotee: What if there is someone . . . this . . . (static) . . . likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some prasādam . . . Prabhupāda: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, that's all right. Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasādam for Kṛṣṇa, but he does not make it so good, and it is . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Kṛṣṇa will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Kṛṣṇa banana. So he was so absorbed in thought, he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Kṛṣṇa was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that, "He's giving Me in the devotion." So Kṛṣṇa can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything. Devotee: But if the devotion is not there . . . like in India . . . Prabhupāda: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it. Devotee: In India, somebody said . . . Prabhupāda: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not . . . Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion, that out of . . . bhaktyā, tad aham aśnāmi. Bhaktyā upahṛtam , real thing is devotion, not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world, but He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhaktyā upahṛtam (BG 9.26): "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love." That is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand . . . therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a nondevotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion, that's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; *then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He's on the mental plane, so he has no good qualification. (break) The time? Śyāmasundara: Six o'clock. We leave in twenty minutes. *Devotee: Six*-thirty. (break) Prabhupāda: It is . . . question and answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the . . . Bob: I still have a question on the prasāda . *Prabhupāda: Sūta Gosvāmī says, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka*-maṅgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-maṅgalam , either by the question or by the answer. (break) Bob: I still have . . . do not understand so much about what you're telling me about the prasādam . But if you like, I'll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About prasādam . Prabhupāda: Prasādam is always prasādam . So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasādam . Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is also due to not appreciating. But Kṛṣṇa should be . . . the cook should have consideration that Kṛṣṇa must be offered first*-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Kṛṣṇa can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any prasādam , even it is spicy. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu gave his son poison, and he drunk it nectarean. So for the devotee, even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. And Pūtanā Rākṣasī, she also offered Kṛṣṇa poison, but Kṛṣṇa's so nice that, "She took Me as My mother." So He took the poison and delivered her. Kṛṣṇa does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side, he takes only the good side. (break) He wanted to make business with my Guru Mahārāja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that, "He has come forward to give me some service." So whatever he wanted, he gave him. Bob: Business with your . . . what was that? Business with who? Prabhupāda: That is, I am talking about my Guru Mahārāja. Bob: Oh, oh, I see. (break) . . . question on prasādam , if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasādam ? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything? Bob: Ohhh. Prabhupāda: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. (break) . . . point? Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: A perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee—I have got discrimination—why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate, digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are . . . because a devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura . So a devotee knows his position, and he's intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. (break) . . . it is posted? (break) (end) Conversation 2 with Bob Cohen -- February 28, 1972, Mayapur Prabhupāda: You are feeling warm? Bob: Just tight. Prabhupāda: Too tight. Bob: I was cold before. (break) Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions. *Prabhupāda: No, that is my mission, that people should understand the science of God. Because I am convinced that it's a fact, that without again cooperating with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I give this example many times. Just like a screw from the machine fallen down, it has no value. The same screw, when it is again attached with the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Without God, as part*-and-parcel small screw, what is the value? No value. We should again come back to the position of becoming a screw. That is our mission. Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. Well, his reason for coming, he said, you may find humorous, was to come . . . he heard the hippies were in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: He heard that hippie . . . (break) . . . I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. And he had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he'll come back tomorrow to see devotees. But let me tell you. This is confusing. When he was young . . . Prabhupāda: He's Indian? He's Indian or . . .? Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well. When he was young, he said he worshiped Kālī every day very vigorously. But then the floods all came, and the floods came, and the people saw hardship. And now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn't think of what to say to him to add religion to his life, to add God to his life. He says . . . I asked him . . . He says: "After the hereafter," he says, after he dies, he said: "Maybe I'll become part of God, maybe not," he says, but he can't worry about it now. He says he's tried this religious experience, it didn't work. And one reason I ask this is when I go back to America a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kālī or other kinds of religion that they've experienced, doesn't work. And I don't know what to say to them to convince them that it's worth trying. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You do not try to convince him at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself. Bob: (laughs) Yes, yes. I did . . . I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out as he was leaving down the road I met him again and talked, "Come back," but . . . oh, I see. Prabhupāda: You first of all be convinced, and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success. Janma sārthaka kari . First make your life perfect, and then try to make others'. Preach. (break) Bob: The devotees have said to me that without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa all the time, you cannot be happy. Without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy. Prabhupāda: At times. Not always. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you be Kṛṣṇa conscious you'll feel always happy. Bob: Oh. (laughter) They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's fact. Just like if you are an animal of this land, and if you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in the water in any condition. When you're again taken up to the land, then you'll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are thrown. The same example: The machine part and parcel without the machine has no value. But when it is put again into the machine it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we must join Kṛṣṇa. So you can join immediately with Kṛṣṇa by your consciousness. Simply thinking that, "I am Kṛṣṇa's; Kṛṣṇa mine." That's all. Bob: What is that . . . Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine." Bob: Mind, yes. Prabhupāda: "Mine. My Kṛṣṇa." Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine. Kṛṣṇa is mine, and I am Kṛṣṇa's." That is our actual position. Bob: We are part of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, because everything is generated by the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And everything is energy of Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . tomorrow fasting. Yes. Bob: Tomorrow's fasting? Acyutānanda: Tomorrow we fast. Up until evening. Prabhupāda: Up to evening. Acyutānanda: Until the moon comes. Then we take ekādaśī or feast? Prabhupāda: You can feast. Acyutānanda: Feast. So we'll fast up until the rising of the moon and then take feast, full prasādam . (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it happens that one day out of the week all the other . . . all the shops close except for one. I've experienced in India that all the . . . (break) Bob: . . . the people coming and jumping on each other trying to get . . . afraid that the prasādam would finish before they got served. Prabhupāda: No, assure them that we can . . . "Don't be jumping. We shall supply you." What can be done? (break) . . . the place where we shall perform sacrifice, fire sacrifice, the tablet should be taken there and we shall worship. And then we place it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll carry the tablet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . to the sacrifice place. Prabhupāda: We shall place the in . . . what is called, paraphernalia? And then begin. So ten feet deep and six feet wide. So you have ordered for bricks and cement? (loudspeaker in background) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was speaking with Mr. Sanyal, and he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Sanyal he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks here, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: So try to find out. (break) Devotee: . . . think that acquiring the land, and the other . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Then you can talk. (break) (a devotee is speaking in Bengali over the loudspeaker and Prabhupāda mimics him) (laughter) Devotee: Mahāṁsa. Prabhupāda: Mahāṁsa? Who is speaking? Mahāṁsa speaking or . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Bob: For now? Is it just for now? Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have one question. What is the purpose of service minus devotion? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is not service, that is business. (laughter) Just like we have employed some contractor. That is not service; that is business. Is it not? Indian man: Certainly. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like sometimes they advertise, "Our customers are our master." Is it not? Sometimes advertise. So this is business, but it is a flowery language only that, "Our customers are our masters." Because nobody is a qualified customer unless he pays. Hmm? *But service is not like that. Service, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām (CC Antya 20.47): "Oh, You do whatever You like; still, You are my worshipable Lord." That is service. "I don't ask any return from You." That is service. When you expect some return, that is business. Devotee: Money. (pause) Prabhupāda: Very nice road. (break) Bob: I wish to ask you to advise me on how I can come to feel closer to God. I'll be leaving you soon, and I'm . . . with you . . . Prabhupāda: You have to purify. Bob: Somewhat. But let me say I come to the temple at times and then I leave, and I'm not sure how much I take with me. Prabhupāda: It will not take much time. Within six months you'll realize. But we have to follow the regulative principle. Then it will be all right. Just like these boys and girls are doing. Just see the girl, how she's chanting always. All our girls is . . . Bob: Yeah, I've seen. *Prabhupāda: They have no tendency for going to cinema or going to hotel. No. Everything all stopped. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ. Anartha means unnecessary things, all rubbish. Bob: I feel that when I go back, though . . . Prabhupāda: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Śuddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like if you don't cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you'll get. *Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body. No. Therefore, for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma*-saukhyaṁ anantam (SB 5.5.1). Unless you purify your existence, your hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible. Bob: When I go, I go back to my job in New York, I hope I'll become purer, but I'm sure that I won't become as pure as your devotees here. I don't see myself doing that. Prabhupāda: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning. Now they are pure. Similarly, you can become pure. Just like in your childhood age you were not educated; now you are educated. Bob: So what are the things that I may do? See, if when I go back I must . . . Prabhupāda: Where you go back? Bob: I'll be going back to Chaibasa, Bihar, and to my work there. Prabhupāda: What is there in Chaibasa? Bob: That's where I do my teaching. I live there with . . . Prabhupāda: So better do not teach. Because you do not know what to teach. Bob: I have . . . I'm actually, I'll be going . . . I don't like this so much, and I'll be returning to America in May. But while I'm here, this is my agreement to staying in India, that I . . . Prabhupāda: (referring to microphone) It will not stay. No, if you are serious, you can keep yourself pure anywhere. It doesn't matter whether you stay in America or India. But you must know how to keep yourself purified. That's all. Bob: You mean by following these principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I went to America. So either in America or in India, I am the same man. Bob: I have tried somewhat to follow since I met you the first time. Prabhupāda: That follow . . . you must strictly follow if you are serious. Bob: Maybe . . . okay, maybe what I say now is the most foolish of all I've said, but let me tell you how I feel. Prabhupāda: No, no, not foolish. I don't say foolish, but imperfect. Bob: Okay, imperfect. But let me tell you. I feel that right now I admire and respect your devotees, but I don't feel as if I'm part of them or even a great desire to be part of them. I feel that I just want to do what is right and come closer to God, and if I just go to a better life next time, I'd be satisfied. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Bob: Maybe that's just material clinging. Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu . But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. *Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma*-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam , "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many . . . so now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt . . . Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existentional body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body, there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not? Bob: Put the iron rod into fire . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become fire. Bob: Yes . . . Prabhupāda: Although iron rod. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this body, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, it will act as spiritual, although it is material body. The same example: iron rod, when it is red hot, it is not longer iron rod, although it is iron rod. You can catch it as iron rod, but touch anywhere, it will burn. It has got the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become spiritualized. You'll act spiritually. No more material demands. Bob: How do I do this? Prabhupāda: This process, as they are doing. You have seen. These boys are, our six boys, they are now initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant this beads. Very easy. Bob: Well, um, but . . . see, when I'm back in Bihar and following my lifestyle there, I . . . if I follow all these regulative principles . . . some I follow now, but not all. But if I follow all . . . Prabhupāda: "Some" means? Bob: Some . . . Prabhupāda: There are only four regulative principles. "Some" means three, or two? Bob: Two or three. Prabhupāda: So why not other one? Bob: No, no, I mean I follow one or two now. One or two now I follow. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why not the other three? What is the difficulty? Bob: Erm . . . Prabhupāda: Which one you follow? Bob: Which one I follow? I am almost vegetarian, but I eat eggs. Prabhupāda: That is also not fully. (laughs) Bob: No, not even fully. But since last time I've become vegetarian, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Vegetarian is no qualification. Bob: Not much. Prabhupāda: You see, vegetarian, the pigeon, pigeon is vegetarian. The monkey is vegetarian, but most rubbish creature. Bob: Well . . . Prabhupāda: A monkey is vegetarian, naked sannyāsī , lives in the forest—the most mischievous. Bob: I felt that it was a little bit of progress, because it was somewhat difficult at first, then easy, and I had returned to . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can stick to all regulative principles, provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Otherwise it is not possible. Bob: Yeah, but this is it. I have . . . when I'm back in Bihar and my friends may say . . . well, we're sitting in the evening, and there's nothing to do but fight mosquitoes, and they'll say: "How about smoking some marijuana?" And I say: "Sure, there's nothing else to do," and then I sit down and I enjoy myself for the evening. Now, we did this . . . we got carried away. We were doing it every day and realized we were hurting ourselves and stopped, but still, on occasion we do that . . . *Prabhupāda: You have to live with us. Then your friends will not ask you, "What about marijuana?" (Bob laughs) Keep the association of devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-ras . . . (SB 3.25.25). We are opening centers to give chance people to associate with us. Why we have taken so much land? Providing for those who are seriously desirous. They will come and live with us. Association is very influential. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ (BG 2.62). If you associate with drunkards, you become a drunkard. If you associate with sādhu , then you become sādhu . Śyāmasundara: He can come and stay with you in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He could come and stay in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can stay with us in Bombay. But here he wants friend, marijuana. That is the difficulty. Bob: Um, let me ask you about something else. Then maybe I'll come back to this, because I'm still . . . I find that I think of myself too much, and this way you can't think of God so much. One can't think of God. I think of myself in too many places. How can I forget about myself so I can concentrate on other more important things? Prabhupāda: As they have done. Bob: (laughs) You are saying to me that my path . . . I think what you're saying is my path to purity is to become a devotee. Prabhupāda: Do you hesitate? Bob: Well, I . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very difficult to become a devotee? Bob: For myself . . . it is . . . I don't feel so much the desire. I have . . . first the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, means giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have . . . Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material life? I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual? Bob: Material. Prabhupāda: Then how we give up material life? Bob: I think how I interpreted it was a desire for material gains. Prabhupāda: That is material life. Bob: You're working towards material gains, not giving up all material. Prabhupāda: Material life means when you desire to gratify your senses. That is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. Instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others' activities? We are using everything: table, chair, bed, this tape recorder, typewriter. So what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Ah . . . this I see. The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures that they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures. But see, I haven't . . . Prabhupāda: Spiritual kinds of pleasure means when you desire to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Just like example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. (break) Bob: Spiritual pleasure, then, is in pleasing God. Prabhupāda: Spiritual pleasure means pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Pleasing of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And material pleasure means pleasure of senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you try simply to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Bob: I had viewed this as . . . my thought of pleasing God was to do . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, don't manufacture your ways of pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose if I want to please you, then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture service. That is not pleasing you. Suppose if I want a glass of water. And if you manufacture that, "Swāmījī will be more pleased if I give a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I please you?" And what I order, if you do that, that will please me. Bob: And pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is . . . pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The devotee means who is always pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He has no other business. That is devotee. Bob: And, can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly, just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently. And once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. And maybe I don't chant properly. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has got process. You have to adopt the process. Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is when . . . more you become purified, you feel ecstasy. But this chanting process is purifying process. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this afternoon we were discussing about austerities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: About austerities. If you don't practice voluntarily austerities, then you must involuntarily practice some austerities. Prabhupāda: Yes, under the direction of spiritual master. You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master you have to carry out the order. That is austerity. Śyāmasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to. Prabhupāda: No, because . . . you have got . . . you have surrendered to a spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don't like, you have to do it, to please me. Even you don't like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says: "Today is fasting," so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (loudspeaker in background) Śyāmasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don't want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they're forced to austerities. Prabhupāda: That is forced austerity, that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . if you don't undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity, but man can accept austerity. (break) That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner's shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money, so he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore animal cannot undergo austerity. (indistinct discussion about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. Aiye, aiye, aiye . (break) Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and Kṛṣṇa sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That's all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities, chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? . . . (indistinct) . . . I see austerity—call my mother. Bob: What is that? *Prabhupāda: Suppose we have this nice foodstuff this mother has brought. So those who are not following austerities, they cannot expect. But because we are following austerity, Kṛṣṇa sends us nice thing. So we are not loser. When you become Kṛṣṇa*-ized, then you'll get more comfort than at the present moment. That's a fact. Bob: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulty. When, before taking sannyāsa , I was living in Delhi, these boys were taking care of me. Yes. So I had no difficulty, although I was living alone. Śyāmasundara: If you don't accept a spiritual discipline, then nature forces so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Māyā is imposing so many difficulties, but as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, no more imposition. Śyāmasundara: We are so foolish that we are always thinking, "In the future I'll be happy." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is māyā , illusion. That is a ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass, he'll go. The ass is thinking, "Let me go forward little, and I shall get the ass, er, grass." But it is . . . one feet distant it always remains. That is ass*-ism. (laughter) That is not . . . everyone is thinking, "Let me go a little forward, and I'll get it." (break) . . . get it, be very happy. (break) Bob: I, I thank you so much for . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm? (break) Don't talk l*-e-a-v-e, but talk l-i-v-e. Bob: I, I, I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But . . . Prabhupāda: Don't return. Bob: I should stay tomorrow, here. Prabhupāda: Stay here. Bob: You tell me to, I'll stay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're a very good boy. Bob: Okay. Thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: It is very simple. The living entities, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, they are in this material world. "Kṛṣṇa" means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes, everything. Bob: What was that last? Prabhupāda: Pastimes. Bob: Pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you speak of king, it means king's government, king's palace, king's queen, king's son, secretaries, military strength, everything. Is it not? Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Kṛṣṇa, means all energies of Kṛṣṇa. That is complete by saying "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa." Rādhā represents all the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, the living entities are also included, because the living entities are energies, different energy of Kṛṣṇa—superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that means material existence. The whole world is not serving Kṛṣṇa. They are serving Kṛṣṇa in a different way. They are serving Kṛṣṇa indirectly. Just like disobedient citizens, they serve the government indirectly. They have come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So in the prison house they're forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly, all the living entities here, they're godless. Either by ignorance or by his will, he doesn't like to accept the supremacy of God. Demonic. So we are trying to bring them in their original condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (break) Bob: I'd like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about, just medicine. I went to go . . . I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn't go in the water. Some felt I should, because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn't because I have a cold. And we were talking, and I don't understand. Some . . . devotees . . . do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past? Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Bob: But when one is . . . Prabhupāda: Any kind of distress we suffer, it is due to our impious activities in the past. Bob: But when one is removed from karmic influence . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Bob: . . . does he still get sick? Prabhupāda: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force. What is called physically, this . . .? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a devotee who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, even he's found that he's suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Bob: But what about a perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee? *Prabhupāda: Perfected soul means twenty*-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection. Transcendental position. Perfection means to be engaged in his original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , "Anyone who comes to Me, that is the . . ." Saṁsiddhiḥ labhate param. Saṁsiddhi . Perfection, complete perfection. Saṁsiddhi. Siddhi and saṁsiddhi . Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization. And saṁsiddhi means devotion, after Brahman realization. Bob: Could you just say that last thing again, please? Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi . Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sam means complete. Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And siddhi means perfection. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that one who goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has attained the complete perfection. So perfection means when one realizes that he's not this body, he's spirit soul. Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). That is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And saṁsiddhi means after Brahman realization, when one is engaged in devotional service. Therefore one who is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called saṁsiddhi . Bob: I, I, I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: This is a result of your past karma ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Prabhupāda: Yes, escapes. No more karma . For a devotee, no more karma reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee, and you . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, I don't consider I am the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! No! Prabhupāda: You are the best devotee. Bob: (laughter) Oh, no! But lets see, you say, what you say . . . it always, always seems right. Prabhupāda: Yes, but . . . Bob: So then you must be the best devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes, the thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, he comes to the second*-class devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sees there is no need of preaching; everyone is devotee. (Bob laughs) Yes. He sees no more nondevotee, all devotee. *Yaśodānandana: Uttama*-adhikārī ? *Prabhupāda: Uttama*-adhikārī . But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī: She does not see anyone nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī. Bob: Who is this? Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort. Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: Anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the best devotee. He's better than me." And Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse. That is best devotee. But it is not to be imitated, "I have become best devotee. Therefore I have stopped." That is . . . actually, that is a different stage. So even the best devotee . . . *Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually, ācārya , but he comes to the second stage. Īśvare tad*-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca (SB 11.2.46). He . . . he has the vision of dviṣat , somebody envious of God. But it is not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious to God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, he says that "I am lowest than the worm in the stool." Bob: Who was saying this? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . the author of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha (CC Adi 5.205). He's not making a show; he's feeling like that, that "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service; I am not engaged." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I would have been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa I would have died long ago. I am living, that is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." That is the vision of the best devotee. He's so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he sees, "Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God." That is best devotee. Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody's liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Not . . . what is that word? Prabhupāda: Imitate. Devotees: Imitate, imitate. Bob: Oh, ācchā, ācchā , I see. Imitate. (pause) (break) Śyāmasundara: . . . you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that . . . couldn't sometimes disease be that, due to that, caused by that? *Prabhupāda: You see, Kṛṣṇa says that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So Kṛṣṇa's so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not the easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he's not Kṛṣṇa, so sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu forbidden that "Don't make many śiṣyas , many disciples." But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we suffer. But that's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many disciple is a risky job unless he's able to assimilate all the sins. (pause) *(break) . . . patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That is . . . that idea is in Bible. Just like Jesus Christ take all the sinful reaction of all people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of spiritual master. Because he's Kṛṣṇa's representative, so Kṛṣṇa takes all responsibility. Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, apāpa*-viddham . He cannot be attacked by any sinful reaction. But a living entity may be subjected sometimes, because he's small. Big fire, small fire. On a small fire if you put some big things, (chuckling) then the fire itself may be extinguished. In the big fire, whatever you put, that's all right. Finished. The big fire can consume anything. Bob: So Christ's suffering was of that nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Was Christ's suffering this . . . Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that he took the sinful reaction of all the people, therefore he suffered. Bob: I see. Prabhupāda: He said . . . that is the Bible, that he has taken all the sinful reactions of the people and he sacrificed his life. But these Christian people, they have made it a law that, "Christ will suffer and we shall do all nonsense." Such great fools they are. They are . . . "Let Jesus Christ make contract for taking all our sinful reaction, and we will go on with all nonsense." That is their religion. This . . . they are not in sense that, "Christ is so magnanimous that he took all our sins, and he has suffered. We stop all these sins!" They have not come to that sense. They have taking it very easily: "Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we do all nonsense." Is it not? Bob: Yes. It is so. Prabhupāda: Yes. They should have been ashamed that, "Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us. Instead of . . . we are continuing the sinful activities still. He asked everyone, 'Thou shall not kill,' and we are indulging in killing." And "Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us, take all the sinful reaction." This is going on. (break) . . . should be very much cautious that, "For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer. So I'll not commit a pinch of sinful action." That is duty of the disciple. After initiation, his all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, the spiritual master has to suffer. They should be sympathetic for this that, "For my sinful activities my spiritual master will suffer." (break) . . . attacked with some disease, it is due to the sinful activities of the disciples. Exactly like Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on account of the sinful activities of others. (break) . . . forbidden, "Don't make many disciples." But we do, because we are preaching. "Never mind, let us suffer; still, we shall accept." (break) . . . question was that when I suffer it is due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? Bob: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is my misdeed, that I accept a disciple who is nonsense. That is my misdeed. Bob: This happens on occasion? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is sure to happen, because we are accepting so many men. But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious that, "My spiritual master saved me. I may not put him again into these suffering." (break) When the spiritual master is in suffering, Kṛṣṇa saves him. Kṛṣṇa thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Kṛṣṇa is there. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not due to karma . (break) The pain is there sometimes so that the disciples may know that "Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master is suffering." (break) Bob: . . . very well now. Prabhupāda: I'm always well. (break) . . . well in this sense: even there is suffering, I know Kṛṣṇa will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities. (break) Bob: But let us say, when I . . . in the town I live in I drink boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water? If I have been good enough not to get a disease, then I may drink any water. And if I have been not doing proper, then I shall get diseased . . . Prabhupāda: So boiled water is any water also. Boiled water is included within any water. Bob: But, you see, I drink that to prevent disease. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you are in the material world, what is physical law, you cannot neglect that. Just like if you go to a jungle, there is tiger. It is known that it will attack you. Why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long he has got some physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: "Oh, I have become a devotee. I challenge everything." That is foolishness. Anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ (Brs. 1.2.255). *Viṣaya, this physical necessities, the devotee is advised to accept the necessities of life without any attachment. Physical law is take the boiled water. But if boiled water is not available, does it mean he'll not drink water? If it is not available, you drink ordinary water. (break) We take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . But while in touring, in hotels, sometimes we have to take some food in the hotel. Does it mean, "Oh, I do not take any foodstuff from the hotel. I shall starve"? If I starve, then I'll be weak, I cannot preach. (break) Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality, in that . . . Prabhupāda: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, he was . . . in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya . Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Surprise Sometimes we fast. That does not mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast. Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in full. Bob: . . . taste for different things? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Kṛṣṇa. Suppose I like this thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "No. You cannot use it." Then they are sacrificed. It is for Kṛṣṇa's sake. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe . Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if Kṛṣṇa does not like it, he won't take. Bob: And how does he know which food Kṛṣṇa likes him to take? Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra . You have to know from Kṛṣṇa. When you . . . just like what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the law books. Is it not? Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa likes and not likes, you get from the śāstra . You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). *He says definitely. Positively He says that, "I like these things." So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take prasādam . Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Therefore all the gopīs, they're trying to push Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuñja*-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā . That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gopī . All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti . That is called prema , love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this." Bob: There is . . . some prasādam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasādas are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat. Prabhupāda: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, you should accept everything. You cannot make, "I like this. I do not like this." That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination, that means you have not appreciated what is prasāda . (pause) Devotee: What if there is someone . . . this . . . (static) . . . likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some prasādam . . . Prabhupāda: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, that's all right. Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasādam for Kṛṣṇa, but he does not make it so good, and it is . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Kṛṣṇa will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Kṛṣṇa banana. So he was so absorbed in thought, he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Kṛṣṇa was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that, "He's giving Me in the devotion." So Kṛṣṇa can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything. Devotee: But if the devotion is not there . . . like in India . . . Prabhupāda: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it. Devotee: In India, somebody said . . . Prabhupāda: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not . . . Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion, that out of . . . bhaktyā, tad aham aśnāmi. Bhaktyā upahṛtam , real thing is devotion, not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world, but He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhaktyā upahṛtam (BG 9.26): "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love." That is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand . . . therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a nondevotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion, that's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; *then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He's on the mental plane, so he has no good qualification. (break) The time? Śyāmasundara: Six o'clock. We leave in twenty minutes. *Devotee: Six*-thirty. (break) Prabhupāda: It is . . . question and answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the . . . Bob: I still have a question on the prasāda . *Prabhupāda: Sūta Gosvāmī says, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka*-maṅgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-maṅgalam , either by the question or by the answer. (break) Bob: I still have . . . do not understand so much about what you're telling me about the prasādam . But if you like, I'll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About prasādam . Prabhupāda: Prasādam is always prasādam . So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasādam . Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is also due to not appreciating. But Kṛṣṇa should be . . . the cook should have consideration that Kṛṣṇa must be offered first*-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Kṛṣṇa can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any prasādam , even it is spicy. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu gave his son poison, and he drunk it nectarean. So for the devotee, even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. And Pūtanā Rākṣasī, she also offered Kṛṣṇa poison, but Kṛṣṇa's so nice that, "She took Me as My mother." So He took the poison and delivered her. Kṛṣṇa does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side, he takes only the good side. (break) He wanted to make business with my Guru Mahārāja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that, "He has come forward to give me some service." So whatever he wanted, he gave him. Bob: Business with your . . . what was that? Business with who? Prabhupāda: That is, I am talking about my Guru Mahārāja. Bob: Oh, oh, I see. (break) . . . question on prasādam , if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasādam ? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything? Bob: Ohhh. Prabhupāda: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. (break) . . . point? Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: A perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee—I have got discrimination—why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate, digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are . . . because a devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura . So a devotee knows his position, and he's intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. (break) . . . it is posted? (break) (end) Conversation 3 with Bob Cohen -- February 29, 1972, Mayapur Bob: . . . does one earn good karma ? *Prabhupāda: Good karma means what are prescribed in the Vedas . The . . . specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajña. Yajña means to act for satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said . . . (aside) So shall I stop the fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb. Bob: I have a sweater here, if you like. 01:05 (EW ) *Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajñas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajña is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law*-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma , and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma . Bad karma , you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma . So . . . (microphone sound) . . . some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma . You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. (aside) Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that? Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle. Prabhupāda: Ankle? Oh, there was some . . . (break) Bob: . . . who is not very aware of God, but . . . Prabhupāda: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal. Bob: What about the people in the . . . the innocent people? Prabhupāda: The animal is very innocent. You cut it's throat, it won't protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just . . . to become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura . So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent. Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is? Prabhupāda: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation—he's intelligent. If he does not know what he is . . . the animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he's body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he's not intelligent. Bob: What about a person who does . . . tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught, but he stays honest anyway. A person like that. Is that some kind of good karma ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, to become honest is also good karma . The how to become good man, they're described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: daivī sampad and asurī sampad . These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you become qualified with the daivī sampad , then daivī sampad vimokṣāya ( BG 16.5), then you'll be liberated. And nibandhāyāsurī matā : and if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you'll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They're so much ignorant. They do not know. Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean by liberation?" can you answer? And if I ask you, "What do you mean by entanglement?" can you answer? These words are there in the Vedic literature: liberation and entanglement. But at the present moment they do not know even what is liberation, what is entanglement. They're so ignorant and foolish, and still, they're proud of their advancement in knowledge. Can you answer what is liberation? You are a professor, teacher, but if I ask you, can you explain what is liberation? Bob: Umm . . . not adequately, because if I could explain, then I would be becoming liberated very fast. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast and slow liberation? (chuckles) There is no question of liberation. It is not . . . neither fast nor slow. You first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking, understanding fast and slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation? Bob: Umm . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking. You daily ask me; I am asking you today. Bob: Okay, yes. (laughs) I'll think for a moment. Śyāmasundara: Shall I turn this off, this fan? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's cool now. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, he'll do. Where is Nanda*-kumāra? He can do. (break) . . . is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is called mukti . So that mukti is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6): one should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing, because nobody knows what is his original position and how to act properly. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpam . People are generally acting differently. But they do not know what is differently and what is properly. So much ignorant are the modern population about their life. It is very, very awkward position. They do not know. (break) Bob: . . . who is honest? Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is honesty. How he can be honest? If you know what is honesty, then you can become honest. But you do not know what is honesty. What is honesty? First of all explain. Bob: Honesty is doing what you really feel is right. Prabhupāda: Then a thief is feeling that "I must steal to provide my children. It is right." Does it mean that he's honest? Everyone thinks. The butcher, he thinks, "It is my life. I must cut throat of the animals daily." Just like that, what is that, vyādha, vyādha . . . when Nārada Muni met him? Śyāmasundara: Oh, Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes, Mṛgāri. "Why you are killing in this way?" "Oh, it is my business. My father taught it." So he was honestly doing that. So feeling of honesty depends on different culture. A thief's culture is different. He thinks stealing is honesty. Bob: So what is honesty? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my question. (laughter) Real honesty is that you should not encroach upon others' property. This is honesty. Just like this is my table. If you want to take it away while going, is that honesty? No. So therefore the simple definition of honesty is that you should not encroach upon others' right. That is honesty. Bob: So somebody who is honest will be in the mode of goodness. Would that be correct? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Because mode of goodness means knowledge. So if you know, if you're well conversant that "This table does not belong to me; it belongs to Swāmījī," so you'll not try to take it away. Therefore one must know, be thoroughly well conversant—then he can be honest. Bob: So . . . now, you had said the mode of goodness was knowledge of God, but somebody may be honest without having very much knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bob: You know, without being honest, without thinking they're honest because it is God's wishes, they just feel like they ought to be honest. Prabhupāda: No. God wishes everyone should be honest. Why God should think otherwise? Bob: So you may follow God's wishes without knowing you are following God's wishes. Like somebody may be in the mode of . . . Prabhupāda: No. Without knowing following, that is absurd. Without knowing following, that is absurd. You must know that, "This is the I mean to . . . order of God." And if you follow that, then that is honesty. Bob: But somebody would not be honest without knowing God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is the supreme proprietor. Huh? See . . . God is the supreme proprietor and He's the supreme enjoyer and He's the supreme friend. That is the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If anyone knows these three things, then he is in full knowledge. These three things only—that God is the proprietor of everything, God is friend of everyone and God is the enjoyer of everything. Just like the same example, in your body . . . everyone knows in the body the stomach is the enjoyer—not the hands, legs, eyes, ears. They are simply to help the stomach. Eyes . . . the vulture goes seven miles up to see where is food for the stomach. Is it not? Bob: That's so. Prabhupāda: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Kṛṣṇa, God. He's the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer, or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body, they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere . . . He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. *But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yahya Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he'll not accept. He'll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things. And that is the cause of our trouble. But Bhagavad*-gītā , in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said: But we won't take this. We shall put forward so many false proprietor, false friends, false enjoyer, and they will fight one another. This is the situation of the world. If this education is given and people takes this knowledge, there is peace, śāntim ṛcchati . Immediately there is peace. This is knowledge. And if anyone follows this principle, he's honest. He does not claim, "It is mine." He everything knows it is Kṛṣṇa's, so therefore everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. That is honesty. If this pencil belongs to me, the etiquette is . . . just like my students sometimes do: "Can I use this pencil?" "Yes." This is etiquette. I say: "Yes, you can." Similarly, if I know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, without His permission I'll not use. That is honesty. And that is knowledge. *And one does not know, he's ignorant, he's foolish, and foolish man commits all criminality. All criminals, they're foolish men. Out of ignorance one commits law*-breaking. So ignorance is not bliss, but it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the difficulty, our. The whole world is enjoying ignorance, and when we say about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they do not very much appreciate. If I say: "Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, you are not proprietor," he'll not be very much satisfied. (laughs) Just see, ignorance is bliss. So it is my foolishness to say the real truth. Therefore this is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we are taking the risk to offend people because they'll think we are fools. If I say: "Birla, Mr. Birla, you are not proprietor, Kṛṣṇa is proprietor. So whatever money you have got, spend for Kṛṣṇa," he'll be angry. Mūrkha upadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). If you instruct a rascal, he'll be angry. Therefore we go as beggar: "My dear Mr. Birla, you are very rich man. I am sannyāsī , beggar. So I want to construct a temple. If you spare some money?" So he'll be, "Oh, here is a beggar. Give him some money." You see? (laughter) But if I say: "Mr. Birla, you have got millions of dollars at your disposal. That is Kṛṣṇa's money. Give it to me; I am Kṛṣṇa's servant." Oh, he will . . . (laughter) he'll not be very satisfied. Rather, if I go as a beggar, he would give something, and if I tell him the truth, he'll not give me a farthing. Therefore we take this beggar's dress. We are not beggar. We cheat him as beggar. We are not beggar. We are Kṛṣṇa's servant, we are not beggar. We don't want anything from anyone, because we know Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. Bob: Ahh. *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He'll not spare it. So we have to flatter, "Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper, hundred rupees. It is nothing. It is paper." (laughter) And he will, "Oh, yes, take. That's nice. That two*-paisa lozenges is very nice. It is sweet." So we have to do like that. Why? Because he'll go to hell taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Bob: And then he may not go to hell. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Kṛṣṇa, it will be accounted, "Oh, this man has given a farthing." This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti. Ajñāta-sukṛti means knowing pious activities er . . . doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to do, act very piously, without his knowledge. *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mahad*-vicalanaṁ nṟṇāṁ gṛhīṇāṁ dīna-cetasām (SB 10.8.4). Dīna-cetasām . They're very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons move just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is saintly person's duty. Bob: That is what? Prabhupāda: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing, from anyone. (break) Bob: I think of people I know who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. Bob: Oh, yeah. Are not very . . . are just slightly God conscious, but still these people are honest to the extent they don't take . . . they don't take from other people at all, and they try to be honest with other people. Will these . . . Prabhupāda: But he does not take from other people, but he takes from God. Bob: So these people are half good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: These people, then, are half good? Prabhupāda: Not half God. Bob: Half good, good. Prabhupāda: Not good. If he does not know this principle, that God is the proprietor . . . others' thing . . . what do you mean by others' thing? Bob: Like, people I'm thinking of, they're poor people who need money and food, but . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone needs money. Everyone needs. Who is not poor? Anyone find out. So many gentlemen sitting here. Who is not in need of food and money? You are also in need of money. So what do you distinguish poor and rich? Everyone needs. If that is your definition, if one needs money and food, everyone needs money and food. So everyone is poor. Bob: So, but, well, I was thinking of terms of just people who are relatively poor. Prabhupāda: No relatively. Relatively maybe. You are more hungry than me. But that does not mean you are not hungry or I am not hungry. I don't feel hungry now; that does not mean I do not feel hungry or I am not hungry. For the time being you may not be hungry. Tomorrow you'll be hungry. Bob: What I feel is that somehow these people that . . . everybody around them may be stealing, but they still stand up and don't steal. That these people somehow deserve something good to happen to them. Prabhupāda: But the man who is thinking that he's not stealing, he's also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever he's accepting, he's stealing. Bob: Is he less of a thief? Prabhupāda: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal? Bob: But maybe it isn't . . . if I know it is yours and I take it, I'm a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody's and I take it. Prabhupāda: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupāda: How do you take without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, "It must belong to somebody." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is "Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it," is it not stealing? Bob: It is stealing. Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he's caught, he's arrested and he's punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting . . . suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property? Bob: No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs, you are a thief. So you may think, "I'm honest," but factually you are thief. Guest: Tahole, ekebare jol . . . nadir jol ami grahan korlam. Seta to amar sampatti noy. Kintu ami seta tahole amar . . . ta grahan ami ki kore korte pari? (Now say I am taking water . . . taking water from the river, it is not my property, then on what basis . . . can I accept that?) Prabhupāda: Sei jonye Kṛṣṇa to bolche. (For this reason Kṛṣṇa is saying.) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). You must remember Kṛṣṇa that, "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. *Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities: "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa*-deva mūrti (CC Madhya 8.274). This is honesty. Guest: Prabhupāda bolechen Kṛṣṇai holo ekmatra bhokta, ar sob tar vrtta. (Prabhupāda has said that the only enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, the rest of us are His servant.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, ei kathata to bojhanor ache. (This is the thing we are trying to make people understand.) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber—these qualifications . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third*-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girirāja? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not dogmatism, this is fact. Guest: Mahanambrata ek khan "Sanatan Dharma" boi likhechen tate, Janmādy asya yato . . . satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1), ei satyaṁ bastu Kṛṣṇa na. (Mahanambrata has written a book called Sanatana Dharma , there he says that sloka , Janmādy asya yato . . . satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1), the satyaṁ here is not Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupāda: Chere den, baje lok sob, erom katha anen keno. (All rubbish people, kindly don't repeat their words.) Lady: Or yakhan, yekhane sekhane sekhate shuru kore dicche, sob . . . (According to time and place you should speak, all . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, na, oder principle, hat kali . . . ki ekta mantra oder. Hat Kali . . . (No no, their principle is hat Kali . . . some mantra is there . . . hat Kali . . .) (break) . . . you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty? Bob: In a way. In a way. Prabhupāda: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there no other way? Girirāja? Girirāja: No. Prabhupāda: Is there any alternative, to defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. "Any question?" Till now. And Kṛṣṇa gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, "Any question?" Bob: Now I . . . I have none. Prabhupāda: In London, we had . . . how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conwall Hall? Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Conway Hall. Prabhupāda: Conway Hall, yes. Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Prabhupāda: So after every meeting I was asking, "Any question?" Bob: Did you get many questions? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter) Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish? Prabhupāda: Foolish means who has no knowledge. Bob: No knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is foolish. Is it not foolish? Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I have one personal question, can I ask? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week, it was named "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals." Prabhupāda: Hmm. (chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty, and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness. Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask . . . Prabhupāda: Asking . . . before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They're regularly cruel to the animals, and they're making Society. Bob: Maybe this is . . . Prabhupāda: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, "Goodman and Company." A gang of thieves are giving signboard, "Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such signboard. Śyāmasundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman. (laughs) (break) Bob: . . . returning very soon. Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that a animal, when it is not properly nourished, that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Where is that, theory. Is it not? Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. They say: "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much . . ." That theory is coming in Communist country, that an old man, grandfather, is suffering; *better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation, they eat, make a festival by killing great*-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes. Śyāmasundara: They eat them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army, so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said: "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed. Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that, "Instead of suffering, just kill him." Girirāja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things, therefore you are sinful. Is it not? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Girirāja: But there are some things we're instructed to do . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Girirāja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which, even though we try to do, we cannot do perfectly yet. Prabhupāda: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is? Girirāja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to . . . *Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something, and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bhāgavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Kṛṣṇa excuses. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is said, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). By . . . due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit—habit is second nature—he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that that, "I have done this," and should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the māyā is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Kṛṣṇa excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that, "I am a devotee, I am chanting; therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified," that is the greatest offense . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation 3 with Bob Cohen -- February 29, 1972, Mayapur Bob: . . . does one earn good karma ? *Prabhupāda: Good karma means what are prescribed in the Vedas . The . . . specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajña. Yajña means to act for satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said . . . (aside) So shall I stop the fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb. Bob: I have a sweater here, if you like. 01:05 (EW ) *Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajñas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajña is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law*-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma , and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma . Bad karma , you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma . So . . . (microphone sound) . . . some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma . You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. (aside) Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that? Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle. Prabhupāda: Ankle? Oh, there was some . . . (break) Bob: . . . who is not very aware of God, but . . . Prabhupāda: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal. Bob: What about the people in the . . . the innocent people? Prabhupāda: The animal is very innocent. You cut it's throat, it won't protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just . . . to become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura . So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent. Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is? Prabhupāda: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation—he's intelligent. If he does not know what he is . . . the animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he's body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he's not intelligent. Bob: What about a person who does . . . tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught, but he stays honest anyway. A person like that. Is that some kind of good karma ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, to become honest is also good karma . The how to become good man, they're described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: daivī sampad and asurī sampad . These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you become qualified with the daivī sampad , then daivī sampad vimokṣāya ( BG 16.5), then you'll be liberated. And nibandhāyāsurī matā : and if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you'll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They're so much ignorant. They do not know. Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean by liberation?" can you answer? And if I ask you, "What do you mean by entanglement?" can you answer? These words are there in the Vedic literature: liberation and entanglement. But at the present moment they do not know even what is liberation, what is entanglement. They're so ignorant and foolish, and still, they're proud of their advancement in knowledge. Can you answer what is liberation? You are a professor, teacher, but if I ask you, can you explain what is liberation? Bob: Umm . . . not adequately, because if I could explain, then I would be becoming liberated very fast. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast and slow liberation? (chuckles) There is no question of liberation. It is not . . . neither fast nor slow. You first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking, understanding fast and slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation? Bob: Umm . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking. You daily ask me; I am asking you today. Bob: Okay, yes. (laughs) I'll think for a moment. Śyāmasundara: Shall I turn this off, this fan? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's cool now. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, he'll do. Where is Nanda*-kumāra? He can do. (break) . . . is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is called mukti . So that mukti is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6): one should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing, because nobody knows what is his original position and how to act properly. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpam . People are generally acting differently. But they do not know what is differently and what is properly. So much ignorant are the modern population about their life. It is very, very awkward position. They do not know. (break) Bob: . . . who is honest? Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is honesty. How he can be honest? If you know what is honesty, then you can become honest. But you do not know what is honesty. What is honesty? First of all explain. Bob: Honesty is doing what you really feel is right. Prabhupāda: Then a thief is feeling that "I must steal to provide my children. It is right." Does it mean that he's honest? Everyone thinks. The butcher, he thinks, "It is my life. I must cut throat of the animals daily." Just like that, what is that, vyādha, vyādha . . . when Nārada Muni met him? Śyāmasundara: Oh, Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes, Mṛgāri. "Why you are killing in this way?" "Oh, it is my business. My father taught it." So he was honestly doing that. So feeling of honesty depends on different culture. A thief's culture is different. He thinks stealing is honesty. Bob: So what is honesty? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my question. (laughter) Real honesty is that you should not encroach upon others' property. This is honesty. Just like this is my table. If you want to take it away while going, is that honesty? No. So therefore the simple definition of honesty is that you should not encroach upon others' right. That is honesty. Bob: So somebody who is honest will be in the mode of goodness. Would that be correct? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Because mode of goodness means knowledge. So if you know, if you're well conversant that "This table does not belong to me; it belongs to Swāmījī," so you'll not try to take it away. Therefore one must know, be thoroughly well conversant—then he can be honest. Bob: So . . . now, you had said the mode of goodness was knowledge of God, but somebody may be honest without having very much knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bob: You know, without being honest, without thinking they're honest because it is God's wishes, they just feel like they ought to be honest. Prabhupāda: No. God wishes everyone should be honest. Why God should think otherwise? Bob: So you may follow God's wishes without knowing you are following God's wishes. Like somebody may be in the mode of . . . Prabhupāda: No. Without knowing following, that is absurd. Without knowing following, that is absurd. You must know that, "This is the I mean to . . . order of God." And if you follow that, then that is honesty. Bob: But somebody would not be honest without knowing God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is the supreme proprietor. Huh? See . . . God is the supreme proprietor and He's the supreme enjoyer and He's the supreme friend. That is the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If anyone knows these three things, then he is in full knowledge. These three things only—that God is the proprietor of everything, God is friend of everyone and God is the enjoyer of everything. Just like the same example, in your body . . . everyone knows in the body the stomach is the enjoyer—not the hands, legs, eyes, ears. They are simply to help the stomach. Eyes . . . the vulture goes seven miles up to see where is food for the stomach. Is it not? Bob: That's so. Prabhupāda: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Kṛṣṇa, God. He's the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer, or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body, they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere . . . He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. *But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yahya Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he'll not accept. He'll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things. And that is the cause of our trouble. But Bhagavad*-gītā , in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said: But we won't take this. We shall put forward so many false proprietor, false friends, false enjoyer, and they will fight one another. This is the situation of the world. If this education is given and people takes this knowledge, there is peace, śāntim ṛcchati . Immediately there is peace. This is knowledge. And if anyone follows this principle, he's honest. He does not claim, "It is mine." He everything knows it is Kṛṣṇa's, so therefore everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. That is honesty. If this pencil belongs to me, the etiquette is . . . just like my students sometimes do: "Can I use this pencil?" "Yes." This is etiquette. I say: "Yes, you can." Similarly, if I know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, without His permission I'll not use. That is honesty. And that is knowledge. *And one does not know, he's ignorant, he's foolish, and foolish man commits all criminality. All criminals, they're foolish men. Out of ignorance one commits law*-breaking. So ignorance is not bliss, but it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the difficulty, our. The whole world is enjoying ignorance, and when we say about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they do not very much appreciate. If I say: "Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, you are not proprietor," he'll not be very much satisfied. (laughs) Just see, ignorance is bliss. So it is my foolishness to say the real truth. Therefore this is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we are taking the risk to offend people because they'll think we are fools. If I say: "Birla, Mr. Birla, you are not proprietor, Kṛṣṇa is proprietor. So whatever money you have got, spend for Kṛṣṇa," he'll be angry. Mūrkha upadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). If you instruct a rascal, he'll be angry. Therefore we go as beggar: "My dear Mr. Birla, you are very rich man. I am sannyāsī , beggar. So I want to construct a temple. If you spare some money?" So he'll be, "Oh, here is a beggar. Give him some money." You see? (laughter) But if I say: "Mr. Birla, you have got millions of dollars at your disposal. That is Kṛṣṇa's money. Give it to me; I am Kṛṣṇa's servant." Oh, he will . . . (laughter) he'll not be very satisfied. Rather, if I go as a beggar, he would give something, and if I tell him the truth, he'll not give me a farthing. Therefore we take this beggar's dress. We are not beggar. We cheat him as beggar. We are not beggar. We are Kṛṣṇa's servant, we are not beggar. We don't want anything from anyone, because we know Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. Bob: Ahh. *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He'll not spare it. So we have to flatter, "Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper, hundred rupees. It is nothing. It is paper." (laughter) And he will, "Oh, yes, take. That's nice. That two*-paisa lozenges is very nice. It is sweet." So we have to do like that. Why? Because he'll go to hell taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Bob: And then he may not go to hell. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Kṛṣṇa, it will be accounted, "Oh, this man has given a farthing." This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti. Ajñāta-sukṛti means knowing pious activities er . . . doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to do, act very piously, without his knowledge. *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mahad*-vicalanaṁ nṟṇāṁ gṛhīṇāṁ dīna-cetasām (SB 10.8.4). Dīna-cetasām . They're very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons move just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is saintly person's duty. Bob: That is what? Prabhupāda: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing, from anyone. (break) Bob: I think of people I know who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. Bob: Oh, yeah. Are not very . . . are just slightly God conscious, but still these people are honest to the extent they don't take . . . they don't take from other people at all, and they try to be honest with other people. Will these . . . Prabhupāda: But he does not take from other people, but he takes from God. Bob: So these people are half good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: These people, then, are half good? Prabhupāda: Not half God. Bob: Half good, good. Prabhupāda: Not good. If he does not know this principle, that God is the proprietor . . . others' thing . . . what do you mean by others' thing? Bob: Like, people I'm thinking of, they're poor people who need money and food, but . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone needs money. Everyone needs. Who is not poor? Anyone find out. So many gentlemen sitting here. Who is not in need of food and money? You are also in need of money. So what do you distinguish poor and rich? Everyone needs. If that is your definition, if one needs money and food, everyone needs money and food. So everyone is poor. Bob: So, but, well, I was thinking of terms of just people who are relatively poor. Prabhupāda: No relatively. Relatively maybe. You are more hungry than me. But that does not mean you are not hungry or I am not hungry. I don't feel hungry now; that does not mean I do not feel hungry or I am not hungry. For the time being you may not be hungry. Tomorrow you'll be hungry. Bob: What I feel is that somehow these people that . . . everybody around them may be stealing, but they still stand up and don't steal. That these people somehow deserve something good to happen to them. Prabhupāda: But the man who is thinking that he's not stealing, he's also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever he's accepting, he's stealing. Bob: Is he less of a thief? Prabhupāda: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal? Bob: But maybe it isn't . . . if I know it is yours and I take it, I'm a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody's and I take it. Prabhupāda: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupāda: How do you take without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, "It must belong to somebody." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is "Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it," is it not stealing? Bob: It is stealing. Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he's caught, he's arrested and he's punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting . . . suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property? Bob: No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs, you are a thief. So you may think, "I'm honest," but factually you are thief. Guest: Tahole, ekebare jol . . . nadir jol ami grahan korlam. Seta to amar sampatti noy. Kintu ami seta tahole amar . . . ta grahan ami ki kore korte pari? (Now say I am taking water . . . taking water from the river, it is not my property, then on what basis . . . can I accept that?) Prabhupāda: Sei jonye Kṛṣṇa to bolche. (For this reason Kṛṣṇa is saying.) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). You must remember Kṛṣṇa that, "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. *Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities: "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa*-deva mūrti (CC Madhya 8.274). This is honesty. Guest: Prabhupāda bolechen Kṛṣṇai holo ekmatra bhokta, ar sob tar vrtta. (Prabhupāda has said that the only enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, the rest of us are His servant.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, ei kathata to bojhanor ache. (This is the thing we are trying to make people understand.) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber—these qualifications . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third*-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girirāja? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not dogmatism, this is fact. Guest: Mahanambrata ek khan "Sanatan Dharma" boi likhechen tate, Janmādy asya yato . . . satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1), ei satyaṁ bastu Kṛṣṇa na. (Mahanambrata has written a book called Sanatana Dharma , there he says that sloka , Janmādy asya yato . . . satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1), the satyaṁ here is not Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupāda: Chere den, baje lok sob, erom katha anen keno. (All rubbish people, kindly don't repeat their words.) Lady: Or yakhan, yekhane sekhane sekhate shuru kore dicche, sob . . . (According to time and place you should speak, all . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, na, oder principle, hat kali . . . ki ekta mantra oder. Hat Kali . . . (No no, their principle is hat Kali . . . some mantra is there . . . hat Kali . . .) (break) . . . you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty? Bob: In a way. In a way. Prabhupāda: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there no other way? Girirāja? Girirāja: No. Prabhupāda: Is there any alternative, to defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. "Any question?" Till now. And Kṛṣṇa gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, "Any question?" Bob: Now I . . . I have none. Prabhupāda: In London, we had . . . how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conwall Hall? Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Conway Hall. Prabhupāda: Conway Hall, yes. Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Prabhupāda: So after every meeting I was asking, "Any question?" Bob: Did you get many questions? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter) Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish? Prabhupāda: Foolish means who has no knowledge. Bob: No knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is foolish. Is it not foolish? Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I have one personal question, can I ask? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week, it was named "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals." Prabhupāda: Hmm. (chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty, and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness. Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask . . . Prabhupāda: Asking . . . before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They're regularly cruel to the animals, and they're making Society. Bob: Maybe this is . . . Prabhupāda: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, "Goodman and Company." A gang of thieves are giving signboard, "Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such signboard. Śyāmasundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman. (laughs) (break) Bob: . . . returning very soon. Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that a animal, when it is not properly nourished, that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Where is that, theory. Is it not? Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. They say: "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much . . ." That theory is coming in Communist country, that an old man, grandfather, is suffering; *better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation, they eat, make a festival by killing great*-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes. Śyāmasundara: They eat them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army, so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said: "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed. Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that, "Instead of suffering, just kill him." Girirāja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things, therefore you are sinful. Is it not? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Girirāja: But there are some things we're instructed to do . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Girirāja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which, even though we try to do, we cannot do perfectly yet. Prabhupāda: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is? Girirāja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to . . . *Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something, and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bhāgavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Kṛṣṇa excuses. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is said, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). By . . . due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit—habit is second nature—he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that that, "I have done this," and should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the māyā is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Kṛṣṇa excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that, "I am a devotee, I am chanting; therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified," that is the greatest offense . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation with Lalita Prasad -- March 2, 1972, Birnagar Lalitā Prasāda: Accha. (Well) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ekbare ghure asi, eibar sob thik thak hobe. (Everything will be alright once I return from this trip.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . ami ki raibo . . . (can I be rest assured?) Prabhupāda: Hya, Hya niscintye. (Yes, yes surely.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . Amar boi dekhabo, hater lekha . . . ami dekhiye debo apnake (Will show you my book, written by hand . . . I will show you . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Kothay? Maa kothay? (Where's your mother?) Boy: Maa prasad pacchen. (She's taking prasada .) Prabhupāda: Prasad pacche. (Taking prasada ?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . ta, apni khub khusi hoben? (. . . so, you will be happy?) Prabhupāda: Khub. (A lot.) So, Bhavānanda is sleeping in the car? Śyāmasundara: Yes he is feeling sick. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Erakam, erakam onek . . . onek . . . (indistinct) . . . ache. (Like this, like this, there are many . . . many . . . (indistinct) . . . have.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ta to thakbe. (Yes, that'll be there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Seiguno apni . . . ami yodi koredi, egulo tobe to purna brahman hobe. Pratijaner mangal hobe . . . bokar moto bole debo . . . (These things you . . . if I do that, then one will get full Brahman. Everyone will be blessed . . . I will say like a fool . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Boy: Dadu, apnar bichnar cadar din to . . . (Grandfather, give your bedcover . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? (What?) Boy: Bed coverta den, dekhiye dite hobe . . . (Please give me your bedcover, it has to be shown . . .) 1:49 - 1:55 (audio repeats) Boy: Dadu , Your bed cover . . . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . oh, I see . . . what? *Boy: Show me which bed*-cover . . . *Boy: Please give me your bed*-cover, it have to be shown . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, accha. (Oh yes, oh yes . . .) (indistinct) (indistinct background talk) (audio disruption) Gurudas: . . . the United States. In 1938 cause Bhaktivinod Ṭhākura had said that he shouldn't go. He said I tried to disobey him. (indistinct Bengali conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . Amra ekhon yacchi. (We are leaving now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni yaben kibhabe . . . (How can you go now . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Eikhanete . . . amar kache sob . . . onek sob meyera asche . . . (indistinct) . . . bari kinbo ar apni sob dekhasuna korben. (Over here there was . . . many girls come and join my movement . . . (indistinct) . . . will buy a house and you will look after all these.) (conversation in the background) (break) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . kirtan . . . bari korle . . . (kirtana . . . built a house . . .) Śyāmasundara: You just got started on this? Jayapataka: (indistinct) . . . started already Lady: Amader baro baro shiksha . . . (We had big big teaching sessions . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Tumi ya shikhecho sob . . . (Whatever you've learned, everything . . .) Śyāmasundara: Let's just finish. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinod Thakura sikshaoto eki. (Teachings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura are also the same . . .) Lady: Tai, sei sob . . . (Yes, all that . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekta katha ache . . . (I have one thing to say . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Na bolleto hoy na . . . (It's not possible not to say it . . .) Prabhupāda: What? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct whispers) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . natun shiksha, alocana korbo (. . . new teachings, we will discuss later.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pore korbo . . . accha, tahole ami collum. (We'll discuss later . . . all right, I'll take leave . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Ami dekhabo . . . boi gulo thik ache? (I will show you ok?) Lady: Accha, dandavat. (All right, dandavat .) Prabhupāda: Dandavat . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dui din dhore ekhane thakben na? (Are you not going to stay here for two days?) Prabhupāda: Eibar ese thakbo. (Next time when I will come, I will stay.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . apni nije . . . eka. Dui din . . . (. . . all by yourself . . . alone for two days . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lady: Bolchi, guru paramparar katha . . . bujhte parchen? (Regarding guru parampara . . . are you getting?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady: Oi bhaktara guru paramparar kathar bisaye sei bolche . . . (A devotee mentioned about guru parampara . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (devotees talking) Prabhupāda: Hya . . . (Yes . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . Lady: Ki ki abasta sei hoyeche, seigulo bolche, sob janen ei gulo bolche . . . (He's narrating our plight and the situation . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (break) (indistinct talking) Prabhupāda: Sob thik thak kora yabe na? (We can settle everything?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Seto amar yete hobe. Ar Bombay yodi asen tahole to khub bhalo hoy. Bombay aste parbena? Take ami kharca debo sob. (Oh. Then I have to leave. If he can come to Bombay, then that will be good. Can't he come to Bombay? I can take care of the expenses.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . na, na, tara onek kharca diye geche. (. . . no no, they have given sufficient money for expenses.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . asharamer lokera bahu kharca diye niye geche. (People from ashram. Given enough for expenses.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (All right.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ar telegram karo Hrshikesh prabhuke . . . (and sent a telegram to Hrshikesh prabhu . . .) Prabhupāda: Tar sange na dekha hole ki kore kaj hobe? (Unless I meet him, how will the work get done?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hobe kaj (It will get done . . .) (indistinct Bengali) . . . Prabhupāda: Hya. Apni thakte . . . (Yes. While you are here . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tahole take telegram kore anao na. (Why don't you send a telegram and get him to come here.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Boy: Eito or chuti furiye geche. (His leave is over.) Prabhupāda: Huh. Boy: Asbe. (That he will come . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Seto America, asbe kar theke . . . chuti . . . (He has a job . . . his leave is . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ami Kolkata te . . . khub jor aat tarikh abdi thakbo. Sei lok se er bhetare asbe? (I will be in Calcutta . . . maximum till the 8th. Will he be able to come by then?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Boy: Oi maser aat tarikh? (The 8th of next month?) Prabhupāda: Na, ei maser. (No, this month.) Boy: Oh. Hya, hya er modhye. (Oh. Yes, yes, within this . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ei maser mane . . . aj, March maser dosra to . . . (This month means . . . today, is the 2nd of March . . .) Boy: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . accha, se yai koruk, ami to royechi ar Maharaj . . . bhayer ki ache? Ya hoy, kono cinta korbe na. Se ya bolbo tai korte hobe take. (All right, whatever he does, I am here and Mahārāja . . . what's to fear? Whatever will be, no need to worry. Whatever I will say, that he has to abide.) Prabhupāda: Accha . . . (All right . . .) (indistinct) Lady: . . . eikhane ei . . . ei . . . Uttam Thakurer mandir dekhechen? (Did you see the temple here built by Uttam Thakura?) Lalitā Prasāda: Uni bolchen sono . . . (indistinct) . . . uni bolchen ye, dakshin ko . . . (indistinct) . . . purba kore . . . (indistinct) . . . pechane hoye yabe. (Listen to what he's saying . . . (indistinct) . . . he's saying that the south . . . (indistinct) . . . east sided . . . (indistinct) . . . that will be back side.) Lady: Pub mukho mandirer mukh to . . . ta amader choto mandiroto purba mukha mandir royeche. (The temple is facing east . . . and our small temple is also east facing.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oito . . . (indistinct) . . . pase thaklei bhalo hoy . . . (That . . . (indistinct) . . . better if it stays beside . . .) Prabhupāda: Pase thaklei bhalo hoy . . . (Better if it stays beside . . .) Lady: Tahole uttar mukha hobe? (Then that will be north facing?) Prabhupāda: Uttar mukha uni bolchen hoy na. (He's saying that it must not face north. That's not the standard.) Lady: Uttar mukha konodin bari dite pare na . . . (A house is never should be north facing . . .) Prabhupāda: Dakshin mukha hoy ar purba mukha hoy. (It must either face south or east.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole, oi jami jaygay, ami boli kon jaygay mandirer kono portion ber kore . . . (indistict) . . . choto . . . (indistinct) . . . apnara baro kore mandir korben. (Then the land, I am saying that some portion, in the temple some portion have to be demarcated . . . (indistinct) . . . the small one . . . (indistinct) . . . all of you will build a big temple.) Prabhupāda: Na, na, ota baro mandire dhukiye dite hobe. (No, that has to be placed within the big temple.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Hya, sei. (Yes, That's right.) Prabhupāda: Baro mandir yeta hobe. Bhaktivinod Thakur . . . (The big temple. That will be made. Is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei paryanta kete, aro ucu kore . . . (By cutting this portion, by raising it more higher . . .) Lady: (indistinct) . . . ami bolchi ye, Prabhuke taratari sange kore ene mapa mapi thik kore, sthan thik kore rakhen . . . (I'm saying that let Prabhu quickly decide and demarcate the land . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dekhun, ami . . ami . . . (Look, I am . . . I'm . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pukurta khub bhalo kore pariskar kore . . . (The pond also has to be cleansed properly . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Na . . . (indistinct) . . . korito . . . (No . . . (indistinct) . . . all were done . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . badh tairi kore nice abdi korechi, nongra hoye gele ami ki korbo? (. . . by making a dam, I have cleaned up to the bottom, if it gets dirty, what can I do?) Prabhupāda: Oh, na . . . lokjon nai . . . lokjon to pahara . . . (Oh, that . . . there are no people . . . people need for guard . . .) Lady: Lokjoner abhab . . . pariskar . . . (There's a dearth of help . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Pahara . . . hoye yabe . . . (Guard . . . will happen . . .) Prabhupāda: Oita ekta bhalo park er moton kora hobe. (That will be made into a good park.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, kora yabe. Ar bolchi ye, khanik pore, amader eiye, ei jamir koler oi dikta. Decorate korun na bhalo kore. (Yes, that can be done. And what I'm saying is that after sometime, After this part of the land, on that side. Why don't you decorate it nicely.) Prabhupāda: Sob, bhalo bagan, age park ar or bhitare mandir. (All these. A good garden, a park and the temple within these.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ar baki gulo cas*-bas hok na. (And let there be farming in the rest of the land.) Lady: Prabhu, pratham ye paisa pathiyechilen, tar jonyeto golap bagan korechilen . . . (Prabhu, when he first got money, he made a rose garden with that . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . panera hajar taka diye . . . (with fifteen thousand rupees . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . cole gelo, ar sob mali, barojan mali theke phul bagane jal dito, se sob mali paliye gelo. Ar to eisob drabya, mulya hoye gelo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar se paisar abhab hoye gelo . . . (they left, and the gardeners Twelve gardeners. who were watering the flowers garden, ran away. And then everything became very expensive . . . (indistinct) . . . and there was a shortage of money . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . lokjan ra nao, nijera korte hoy. (not with outside people, it has to be done on our own.) Lady: Ar se malir abhabi pradhan. Ekhonto ekti jayga chilo, tao . . . (The main problem is a lack of a gardener. Earlier there was some space, that too . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Era yodi nijera keu, keu kaj karta, ati sundar gach tairi hoy tobe . . . (If they can do it by themselves then a beautiful plantation can be made but . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mali tali . . . kiram maine ney era? Malira? (How much salary do the gardeners take over here?) *Lady: Tin taka car ana daily nebe, eram abasta. Ekjan nebe ar . . . (Three rupees and twenty*-five paisa daily, this is the situation. One person will take and . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Bhalo mali cai? Sattor taka, nabbai taka khaoa para diye. Erakam cay . . . (It works out for a good gardener to seventy rupees, ninety rupees per month with food. They demand like this . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Jayapataka: Baro mali esche. (Renowned gardeners are there.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapataka: Kolkatar mali. (Gardeners from Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: The labour charge is three to four rupees every day. Lady: Eta sara phul bagan chilo. Foreigner sob golap, ki sundar sob phul, samasta . . . (All these here were flower gardens. Beautiful roses of foreign, also other beautiful flowers, all . . .) Prabhupāda: Take ektu bolbe ye, "tomar ye dena ache diye dicche tumi aso". (Tell him that, "all your debt will be paid off, you come back".) Acyutānanda: To pay off that gardeners debt. Prabhupāda: Well I have already promised him to pay all his debts but he, he said yes but he did not come. I am prepared to pay whatever his debt. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . (indistinct) . . . bujhte parcho? (Do you understand?) Prabhupāda: Yodi tini amar gaye, amar sangei thakto, taholei to katha . . . (If he stays in my village with me, then I can talk . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . maai karabe. Maai karabe age . . . ei maa ke . . . maa kane yabe? Harinamo colbe abar edikeo (Mother will arrange to make it. Mother will arrange . . . mother . . . where mother will go? Harinama will also continue and on the other side . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oiye society ta register korechilen to? (Did you register the society?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya . . (Yes . . .) (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Kagajta ache to? (Are the papers there?) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . originalta nei, ar ki cai? Debo . . . (except the original, do you need anything else? Will give . . .) (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Originalta dekha yabe to? (Can I see the original?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, original dekhato . . . (Yes, show him the original . . .) Devotee: Konta? (Which one?) Lalitā Prasāda: Oiye . . . khamer modhye . . . (That . . . may be inside the envelope . . .) Devotee: Baksa ta? (The box?) Lalitā Prasāda: Bakse ache? (Is it in the box?) Devotee: Govinda jabe. (Govinda knows.) Lalitā Prasāda: Namabi, amar kalke darkar . . . iye porbe, bar kore an. (Get those down, I need it tomorrow . . . he will read, take out and give.) Devotee: Koi er modhye to? (Into this?) Lalitā Prasāda: Dakde na, Govinda ke dak de. (Call Him. Call Govinda.) Devotee: Govinda Da. Edike asoto. (Govinda Da. (older brother) Please come here.) Govinda: Han. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amar iye ta de to Govinda . . . (Govinda please give me, my that . . .) (Indistinct conversation) Devotee: Cabi. Edike khola ache. (Key. Oh it's open from this side.) Lady: Durga thakurer yerakam, yebhabe ache ei maper bhetarei karate hobe to? (Will it be done like the same size, of our Durga deity?) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . hya, otei . . . (yes, that's the one . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Govinda: Hmm, hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Pechane, sesh bhage, pechan dike. Pack kar. Ekbar dekhiye dicche, original ta, original ta . . . oi trunk te original ta. (Backside, at the end, backside. See. Will show you. The original, the original . . . the original one is in the trunk.) (sound of trunk) *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ami dekhlum, eta yodi amar niye rakhi . . . amar bhaipo sob oi rakam . . . sob . . . (indistinct) . . . khoka abar nasta korbe . . . ar . . . ar amar, badha diye . . . Hari*-nam . . . boi chapay, badha diyeche . . . amake badha diyeche, aj ami ekti school khulte partum, amake tao badh diyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . jor kore beriye gelam . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane oder kache thakle kicchu korte dilo na . . . (indistinct) . . . Hari-nam . . . (I thought that, if I keep with me . . . my nephew's, all like that . . . (indistinct) . . . will destroy all . . . and my, my . . . hindered . . . the Hari-nam . . . book printing, they have opposed . . . they have opposed me, now I could open a school, but they have opposed me . . . (indistinct) . . . forcefully I came out . . . (indistinct) . . . because they will not let me do anything if I stay with them . . . (indistinct) . . . Hari-nam . . .) (indistinct Bengali) (break) (indistinct conversation) Lalitā Prasāda: Pele na. (Haven't you got it.) Prabhupāda: Don't keep there. There is tendency of falling down. Śyāmasundara: I'll just wash my hands then I'll sit it nicely. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali conversation) Devotee: . . . registration of company yar . . . (. . . registration of company . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, registration company. Eiye, eti. (Yes registration of company. Here, here it is.) *Devotee: . . . Bhaktivinode*-goṣṭhī. Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Eta nakal na asol ta? (Yes. Is it a duplicate or the original one?) Devotee: . . . registration. Lalitā Prasāda: Eiye . . . (Here . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Devotee: Eta ki? (What is this?) Lalitā Prasāda: Nao, emni khule niye yao. (Take this, open and take it off.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . goṣṭhī Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . gosthi holo, paribar . . . (what means by goṣṭhī , it is a family . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Ah. Family. Lalitā Prasāda: And who who will declare that . . . (indistinct) . . . a religious ceremony he will have Full power . . . he can do everything. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Śevite? Śyāmasundara: These are the Śevite? Lalitā Prasāda: Śrī Sevites. Lalitā Prasāda: Śevite has more importance than anybody . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Then there is the signature of the seven persons. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Rules and regulations? Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Śyāmasundara: . . . of Śrī Bhaktivinode*-goṣṭhī. Constitution. Constitution. This charitable religious literary association or society called Śrī Bhaktivinode-goṣṭhī is constituted and composed of seven members. Some of them paying subscription annually, and others for life paying subscriptions at a time. Including the Śevite of the Ulla Śrī Bhaktivinode Dvāras Mandir in the municipal town of Birnagar in the district of Nadia, West Bengal and the goṣṭhīpati of the society. All of whom will form the mem . . . Prabhupāda: Goṣṭhīpathi of the society . . . of Vṛndāvana? Gosthipati ke? (Who is goṣṭhīpati ?) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Gosthipati ami. (I am goṣṭhīpati .) Śyāmasundara: He's goṣṭhīpati . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: All of whom will form the managing executive committee and governing body, and will be eligible to become office bearers and will hold posts as - 1. President and Vice president. 2. Secretary and joint or assistant secretaries. 3. Treasurer and 4. Librarian, oh no. 5. Treasurer and librarian. 6. Accountant. 7. Auditor. 8. Manager. 9. Goṣṭhīpathi . 10. Sevite and his assistants to perform seva and pūjā of deities at the said Mandir . And will hold any other post or posts which will be created afterwards by the committee as under the rules. Subscription of life member shall be annually 300 rupees at a time. Lalitā Prasāda: Onader na bolle to, prastut hoy na. (If it's not specified, then they won't be ready.) Prabhupāda: Hmm Śyāmasundara: The subscription for ordinary member shall be rupees one per month or rupees 12 per annum. Prabhupāda: 300 for whom? Śyāmasundara: Life members. Prabhupāda: Hmm, life members. Śyāmasundara: At a time. Prabhupāda: Tahole, Oh . . . (Then, Oh . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . kore diyechi ami, tarpor public korche . . . ye, ya hok yoga yog kora hoyeche . . . se asbe . . . ami yato din bece achi . . . (I have added, then the public is doing . . . somehow, in whatever way, they will communicate . . . and come . . . but 'till the time I am living . . .) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Amarto sob nasta kore diyeche . . . onek larai korechi ami. Amader ekhane nasta korbe? Ar na. (My everything they have spoiled . . . I fought a lot. Will spoil everything here at our place? Not any more.) Śyāmasundara: These members will be solely and wholly in charge of the money. Gurudas: Who? Śyāmasundara: These members. Lalitā Prasāda: Those are . . . Śyāmasundara: Seven member. Lalitā Prasāda: Technical constitution.Technical constitution. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: Under laws of . . . (indistinct) . . . illegal. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Those are written according to the legal . . . Śyāmasundara: Legal code? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. These, these seven members? . . . (indistinct) . . . says these members. That is the seven members? . . . (indistinct) . . . says these members. That is the seven members? Lalitā Prasāda: Seven members regular members Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: They are always holding on this) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: And others, the others, lot's of members. Thousand and thousand members . . . (indistinct) . . . account what has gone wrong? (laughs) (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: It sounds like our constitution. Prabhupāda: It is the same. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhabo onake. (Will show him.) . . . (indistinct) Lady: Na, daber jal. (No, water of green coconut.) Lalitā Prasāda: Daber jal, khub bhalo lage. (Water of green coconut, that's good.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . in my own mind . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Ar debo? (Shall give more?) Prabhupāda: Aro ache? (Is there more?) Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Dao. (Give me.) Lalitā Prasāda: Only challenge, who will be secretary? And who will be the . . . (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, eita hate lekha . . . (Oh, this is written by hand . . .) this is handwritten? We shall try . . . (indistinct) Jayapataka: Yogapith kono katha ache? (Is there any writings on Yogapitha?) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, yogapith rakhte cai ni. Yogapith . . . apnader Guru chilo . . . (No, did not want to keep a Yogapitha. Yogapitha . . . your Guru was there . . .) Jayapataka: Sadananda Sukherkoli? Lalitā Prasāda: Sadananda sukherkoli . . . (indistinct) . . . ekdike chilo bengal . . . (at one side was Bengal . . .) govt. . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . amar bhaira sob oirakam apni janen to, sob anya rakam . . . age oigulo nasta kore ditei byasta. Ta ami oderke tyag korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . keno tumi . . . oke . . . ami sune eichi (you know the type of my brothers, they are different . . . they were eager to spoil these first. When I decided to leave them . . . (indistinct) . . . why you will . . . him . . . I listen to all these) . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . sob amar pac hajar boi nasta kore diyeche . . . curi kore niye geche . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (have spoiled five thousand books . . . they took away by stealing.) Five thousand. Invaluable. Finished. We will never get those stocks in the library. Kept five thousand books . . . again I purchased . . . and locked there . . . (indistinct) . . . you take book and go out. Śyāmasundara: Is library here? Devotee: Yes. We purchased the . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: And, and . . . (indistinct) . . . amar lekhapara nasta korarbar jonya ora . . . ora ekdom . . . (to destroy my reading and writings they are . . .) (Bengali conversation) Prabhupāda: Amar mone hoy . . . ye, amader ye society ache . . . (I think . . . just as we have our society . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ei bhabe . . . (Same way . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eki bhabe . . . (The same way . . .) Prabhupāda: Eki bhabe . . . (Same way . . .) Prabhupāda: To, apnader society amaderke . . . amader society ke, eta lease diye dik. (So, your society can give us, our society, a lease.) For development. Tahole, simple hoye yabe. Apnader ya management ache thak. Kintu ei jaygata, samasta develope korbar jonye, (Then, it will become simple. Let the management remain with you. But for the development of this place,) we hold the lease from you. Lalitā Prasāda: For how many years? Legal limit ache. (There are legal limits.) Prabhupāda: Legal limit, so 99 years. Lalitā Prasāda: 99 years. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kore den. Taholei sob amra arambha kore di. Apnader ya constitution thak. Amader constitution amader kache. Kintu eta lease, amra sob develop kori. Bas . . . (you do it. Then we can start. Let your constitution remain the same. We have our own constitution. Only on lease we will develop this place. That's all.) Simple fact. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole amader member der deke, decision kora yak. (That means now we have to convene a meeting of the members and make a decision.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Eito? (That's what you mean to say?) *Prabhupāda: Kore. Bas. Amader ekta lease kore den, ar amra arambha kore di kaj. Kaj ar ki hobe, mandir tairi hobe, bagan tairi hobe, park tairi hobe. Eisob dash*-panera jan ekhane thakbe. Apnader lok ache kirtan hobe . . . ei hobe, ar ki. (After doing that, that's all. You prepare the lease for us, and we can begin work. Then, the temple, garden and park can be built. Ten or fifteen people will come to stay here. You also have some people they will have kirtana . . . this is what will happen.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eito jinish . . . tai jonyeito hoyeche, naile onno kichur jonye hoyni to. (This place is there only for these things, not for anything else.) Prabhupāda: Onya kichur jonye hoyni to? (Does this happen for anything else?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekhane kau ke dhukte dini, kono . . . (indistinct) . . . aste dini. (I haven't allowed anyone to come here, any . . . (indistinct) . . . I haven't allowed.) Prabhupāda: Sutarang, (Therefore,) simple lease for so many years, with option to revive. Eram bhabe ekta khali lease kore den, bas hoye gelo. (Just make a lease like this, and it's done.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Ki bollen? (What did you say?) Prabhupāda: Eram ekta lease kore den. (Please make a lease.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Bas, ato gift korte hobena. Gift korar darkar nei. (That's all, you don't have to gift. There's no need for gift.) We don't want proprietorship, you give us lease. Lalitā Prasāda: Lease. Prabhupāda: For 99 years. For development, that's all. Tarpore amra sob kore nebo. Amader lok thakbe, apnader lok thakbe, seva, puja hobe. (After that we will do everything. Your people will be there, and our people will be there to render service and worship.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Er er er . . . ekla, ei paryanta ya, ta ghot te thakuk . . . (Alone, let it remain 'till this . . .) Prabhupāda: To thak. (Let it remain.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ar odik ya ache . . . (And on that side whatever is there . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, odik ta, oidikta amader lease kore dao. (Yes, that side, just give us lease for that side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Seram dharaner bod mais. (Here the boys are notorious.) Prabhupāda: Eta apnader . . . (This thing of yours . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eiye amaro icche tai. (It's not my wish also.) Prabhupāda: Thik. Eidikta apnader yeman ache thak, oi dikta amader diye din. (Very correct. Let this portion remain as it is, just give us that side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole ami kore yabo, era . . . (I am doing all these, they . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Bas, bas . . . (All right, all right . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Oidikta onek jami ache . . . oi . . oi kaj khana tumi karo. (On that side the quantity of land is more . . . that . . . on that side you start work.) Prabhupāda: Hya, oidikta amra grahan korbo. (Yes, that side we will take.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole apni, ama . . . amar . . . amar mate . . . mat tai. (So you also have the same opinion.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarikh asbe kobe. Lease kore dei. (When the date will come. Let me lease to you.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babuke giye bal ge. Kartik babu parbe ki? (Tell this to Kartik babu. Can Kartik babu do this?) Devotee: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babur to apnar sange dekha hoyni. (Kartik babu didn't meet with you yet.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babur sange dekha hoy ni. (Couldn't meet Kartik babu (Mr. Kartik). Kartik babu) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: Ek sange porechi college. (We study together at the same college.) Prabhupāda: Tahole to amader college, Scottish te to amra porechi. (It's our college then, we studied at Scottish.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Subhas Bose age . . . iye te porto . . . Presidency . . . (Subhas Bose studied there, in his Presidency . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Subhas to amar bhai, choto bhai, Janaki kakar chele. (Subhas is my brother, younger brother, the son of Janaki uncle.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) Janakipada ar Haripada, dui bhai. Ar Balaram chilo . . . (Janki Pada and Hari Pada, they are two brothers. And Balaram was . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Janaki Babu ki apnader atmiya hoten? (Was Janaki Babu a relative to your family?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei Madan Mohan Dutta holo relative, Kolkatar sabceye baro chilen Madan Mohan Dutta. (Madan Mohan Dutta was relative of ours, Madan Mohan Dutta was a great personality of Kolkata) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya, Madan Mohan Dutta nam sunechi. (Yes I heard about Madan Mohan Dutta.) Lalitā Prasāda: Madan Mohan Dutter . . . or nam (Madan Mohan Dutta's . . . his name . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: Tobe amar bhai hoy samparke, kaka (In relation they are my brother, uncle in fact . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Janaki Bose. Lalitā Prasāda: Hmm, Janaki Bose . . . Prabhupāda: Accha, Kartik Boser sange apnader . . . (Do you have any link with Kartik Bose . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Kar? Kartik Boser sathe . . . (Who? With Kartik Bose . . .) Prabhupāda: Dr. Kartik Bose . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Na, amader sange kono samparka nei. Ami kichu janine yodi kichu hoy, ami janine. Ami sob jani kintu se, amar jana kichu nei. (No, we don't have any relation with them. At least I don't know if there is any relation, I don't know. I have knowledge of all these, but I don't know anything about this.) Prabhupāda: Ami Kartik Boser laboratorir manager chilam. (I used to work as a manager in Kartik Bose's laboratory.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni bolechilen . . . (You told . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Uni amar babar khub bisesh bandhu. (He (Kartik Bose) was a very special friend of my father.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khub bha . . . Kartik Babu . . . amyao khub bhalobasten choto belay, ami yetam majhe majhe okhane. . . . (indistinct) . . . ar Khudiram Bose . . . (indistinct) . . . nam ke na jane. (Oh Kartik Babu . . . also loved me a lot in my childhood, I used to visit there occasionally . . . (indistinct) . . . Khudiram Bose, Kalindi Bose, they were known to people.) Prabhupāda: Oi Janaki Bose, Kartik Boser kache asto. Orao oi Harinavi Bose. Ora. (Janaki Bose used to visit Kartik Bose. They are the Bose family of Harinavi. They are.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hari Ballabh Boser choto bhai chilo Roy Bahadur. Ora Cuttacke government trader. (His younger brother was Hari Ballabh Bose who was awarded Roy Bahadur. They were Govt Traders in Cuttack.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Janaki Bose pratham government booking . . . (Yes, Janaki Bose's first Govt. booking . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oderto Elgin Roade bari. (Their home is at Elgin Road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Pare bolchi. Pare yog korchi ye, or Baruipure bari, Baruipur. (Will tell you later. They added it later that is, their home was at Baruipur, Baruipur.) Prabhupāda: Oh, Baruipur. Lalitā Prasāda: Baruipur . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kartik Bosero bari Baruipur. (Kartik Bose's home was also at Baruipur.) Lalitā Prasāda: Janaki . . . Janaki Boser kache giye ei kagaj gulon dekhiyechi, bollo ekhane rekhe dao ami kore debo. Manus . . . taka . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta o paisa nite gelo. (Once I had shown some of my work to Janaki Bose at his residence, he said ok you can leave it here, I will do rest of the things. Man . . . money . . . (indistinct) . . . so he went asking for money.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Paisa nite gelo. Ar ek dhamkani dadake . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). Ta eisob gulo dadar bisaye bollen, amito chele manus, ami ha kore sunlum. (laughs). Ami sobar ceye choto. Takhano khub illegal kichu janina, apnake tai ektu bolchi ami esob katha. (Went to ask for money. And elder brother received chastisement . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). My brother told me this. I was young then, I only listened silently. (laughs). As I was the youngest of all, I didn't have any idea regarding legal things, I am just casually saying all these things to you.) *Prabhupāda: Hya. Ar Allahabade oi Mittir ra chilo, seo apnader kuttumba. Karon Prabhupad Allahabade yakhan gechilen, amra se paichari kore, kore gappo kortam, Mittir der katha uni sob jijnes*-tijnes korchilen. (Yes. The Mittirs of Allahabad, I think they are also somehow related to your family. Because when Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura) visited Allahabad, we used to talk while strolling, and he was also asking about the Mittir family.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob, mane Kolkata sahare to amra chara keu chilo na . . . (Oh. I mean in Kolkata at that time there were not many people besides us . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, Hatkholar Duttara to . . . (The Dutta's of Hatkhola . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni yodi . . . apnaro puron lok ami ekshani ber kore debo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar oi Ghosh Babu. (Now if you . . . I can show you the older residents than you . . . (indistinct) . . . and that Ghosh Babu.) Prabhupāda: Kono rakame te, ekhon abar sob sangyog hoyeche. (Somehow or other now everyone got connected again.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami sob jani, ami giye Maitra da . . . aro bhabi, ke? kabe? Se mela din dekhinito, ke oi lokta? (I know all these, I went, Maitra da . . . I just think, who? When? As I have not seen them since long, who is this person? (laughs) (Ami besh bhabi. Apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . kothay thake? (I only think. Your . . . (indistinct) . . . where does he stay?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Amader bari chelo Harrison roade. (Our home was at Harrison Road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Harrison roade (Harrison Road) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oi ye Go . . . Gokul Gosvai chilo na? (That Gokul Gosvai was not?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, Gokul Gosvai. (Yes, Gokul Gosai.) Prabhupāda: Oi paray. (In that locality.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ar Biswa sahajagita korben . . . oi iye sarkar debe. Takhan ami choto chilem, or ceye choto. Sange, sange gelum . . . (indistinct) . . . onek lok chilo, segulo sob amake bhalobasto. (Yes, and Biswa will help us . . . Govt. will give. Then I was young, younger than him. So I go with him . . . (indistinct) . . . there were many people, all of them loved me.) Prabhupāda: Ke na bhalobasbe apnake? (Who will not love you?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ayaa? (What?) Prabhupāda: Ke apnake bhalobasbe na? (Who won't love you?) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . amake kato ador korto . . . (they used to care for me a lot . . .) Prabhupāda: Dekhte bhalo. Choto chele, sabai bhalobase. (You are good looking. Youngest son, everyone loves naturally.) (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, uni yekhanei yeten, amake niye yeten . . . Bhaktivinod yekhanei yeten . . . (Actually, He used to take me with him wherever he would go . . . wherever Bhaktivinoda would go . . .) Prabhupāda: Ami chelebelay khub dekhte bhalo chilen monei hocche, dekhei bojha yacche. (At your young age you were so good looking that anyone can understand by seeing you.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amake sob jaygay niye yeto erom kore . . . (He used to take me everywhere, like this . . .) Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami ki . . . (Will I . . .) Prabhupāda: Apnader sob bhairai sob dekhte bhalo. (All of your brothers are good looking.) Lalitā Prasāda: Nam, dak chilo na kichu, Bhaktivinod Thakurer. (But didn't have any name, fame of Bhaktivinoda Thakura.) Prabhupāda: Ei . . . ei Gosvai ti katdin royeche apnar kache? (How long this . . . this Gosvai (Vaisnava) is here with you?) Lalitā Prasāda: O ajke aat bachor amar kache thake. Oh saat bachore . . . (He is here for about eight years. His seven years . . .) Lady: Saat bachor bayose bari chere ache. (At the age of seven he came from home.) Lalitā Prasāda: Saat bachor bayose or baba chere diye gelo eikhane. (His father left him here at the age of seven.) Prabhupāda: Besh . . . besh calak chele. (Well . . . he is very clever boy.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, khub calak noy. (No, not that much clever.) Prabhupāda: Khub calak noy? Boka? (Not that much? A bit foolish?) Lalitā Prasāda: Brainta ektu defective ache. Amar kache theke khanikta hoyeche, kintu oi schoole yabar por abar . . . (His brain is a little defective. Some improvement happened after he stayed here with me, but once he began to go to school . . .) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . svikar korben na . . . (not going to accept it . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . abar kharap hoyeche, schoole yabar por kharap hoyeche. (again defective. After going to school he became defective.) Lady: Or maa'r oi eki . . . (His mother also has the same problem . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: A khub byasta amader anbar janya. (He is very eager to bring us here.) Lady: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Niscai. (Of course.) Prabhupāda: Apni bolchen boka, kintu amaderke anbar janya o byasta. (You are saying he is a fool, but he is very eager to bring us.) Lalitā Prasāda: O boka noy, ei samyandhe boka noy. (He is not a fool, at least not on these issues.) Prabhupāda: A samyandhe khub calak? (Very clever on such matters.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, kebol schooler pora, masterder bolbe, kichukshon pore, repeat korbe bhule yabe, ar ei fail hoye yabe. (Only the studies of school, teachers will scold. When they ask him questions, he will forget and eventually will fail the exam.) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mane, Fokre Bhatcarjee, thaki Hatkhola, falanite atta*-sota, bikrir name kac kala. (laughter) Ki tai naki? (Means all other aspects are fine but when it comes to the matter of study, he is like a green banana (very poor) (laughter) So, is it not the fact?) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Falanite atta*-sota, bikrr name kac kala. (Other aspects are good but in study, like a green banana.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun . . . ati choto bayase, oi Mayapur dvipe emon bhakti holo ye, Calcuttay ar yay ni. (See . . . in this young age, he got so much love for Māyāpur, for that he didn't return to Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Tato batei. (That's a fact.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Bap maa esche. Yei bolecchi bap*-maa esche, ek dor . . . ami kole kore niye giye jor . . . bichanay . . . jor kore bichanay bosiyechi . . . (Once his parents have come. As I told him that his parents have come, he ran away . . . I carried in lap and forcefully make him seat in the bed . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Or, Calcuttay or . . . Calcutta te khub influence or. (He has good influence in Calcutta. Very influential in Calcutta.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tahole . . . (Then . . .) now I require massages. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole, kalke kakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . uni . . . uni apnader communicate korbe. (Then, tomorrow which time . . . (indistinct) . . . he . . . he will communicate with you.) Śyāmasundara: Where would you like to take massage? In the sunshine? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: In the sun? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Ki bollo? (What he said?) Śyāmasundara: Massage. Prabhupāda will take massage. Lalitā Prasāda: Nice ache, bosbe. Ei ye sofa, massage korbe? (This sofa is low in height, so will you massage here?) Prabhupāda: A kore debe . . . (He will arrange . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Bichanay kore di? (Should I arrange a bed?) Prabhupāda: Thak bichanay na, madur pete dilei hobe. (Not in the bed, just lay a mat, it will be fine.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei roddure? Naki upare? (In the sunshine or upstairs?) Boy: Upare debo? Upare? Na ghare? (Where will we lay it, upstairs or in the room?) Prabhupāda: Opore keno, oi raddure. (Why upstairs, in the sun.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ghare? (In the room?) Prabhupāda: Na, ei raddure. (No, in the sunshine.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei rode? (Here, in the Sun?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Kasta hobe na? (Will it not be inconvenient?) Prabhupāda: Beshi raddur ki? (Is the sunshine too bright here?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ar Kasta hole, baire aso. (If you feel discomfort then come back.) Boy: Ghar khule dena. (I will open the room.) Prabhupāda: Ektu raddurei bhalo. (It is better in the Sun.) Lady: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, gharer chader opr niye ya na. Chader opor niye gele baro bhalo hoto. (Take them on the terrace. It would have been better on the terrace.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Chader oporer ghar besh bhalo. (In the terrace room, there it would be good.) Prabhupāda: Chade keno? Eito ekhane besh . . . (Why terrace, just here in this place is good . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ekhane ghaser opor besh naram hobe. (Here in the grass, it will be soft here.) Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, bichana kore dao. (Okay, put a bed here.) Prabhupāda: Na, ekta madur pete dilei hobe. (No, just a mat will be good.) Lady: Hya, oitaito choto ache . . . pata chilo. (Yes, that's a little small . . . already arranged.) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu sarser tel. (And a little mustard oil.) Lalitā Prasāda: Very good that you are keeping in your . . . (laughs) I am very glad. Na, apni bacar age, yatadin iye kore protect thaka yay . . . (indistinct) . . . oi dike niye ya to. (Yes, as long as you can be kept alive and protected . . . (indistinct) . . . take to that side.) Lady: Hya, oi Neem tala ta . . . (Yes, beneath that Neem tree . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei bolna. (Hey, tell him.) Lady: Neem tala ta. (Below the Neem tree.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khoka. Ei . . . ei khane dik. (Khoka. This . . . this side he can put.) Lady: Na, na oi Neem tala khub bhalo hobe. (No, no . . . beneath the Neem tree will be good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem tala? (Underneath the Neem tree?) Lady: Garir pase, Neem gach tar kahe, alpo raddur to . . .) (Beside the car, the Neem tree, the sunshine is a little less there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talay jabe? (Will it go beneath the Neem tree?) Lady: Hya, ei Hari. (Yes, hey Hari.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhna Hari. (Hari just see.) Lady: Gaborta sariye de to. (Clear the cow dung.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talay rakh. (Keep it beneath the Neem tree.) Lady: Neem talar gabor ta sariye dik, khub bhalo yayga. (Beneath the Neem tree, just clear the cow dung, it's a very good place.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talar gabar sara. Oi khane mat pete de, Neem talai bhalo. (Clear the cow dung beneath the Neem tree. Lay this mat there, beneath the Neem tree is actually good.) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu khani garam jal cai. (And a little bit of hot water is required.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Khule dilei holo, jal bhara ache. (Water is already stored, just open it.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, jal bharai ache . . . (Oh, water is stored . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh, eite garam hoy? Tahole to kono kathai nei. (Oh, this way it will be hot? That's fine.) Lady: Switch khule dilei hobe. (The switch is to be opened.) Lalitā Prasāda: Switch off kore de hya. (Switch off. Please turn the switch off.) Lady: Switch off. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Jal puro ache to? (The water is stored?) Boy: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Buro manuser janya byabasta rakhi. (Keep facilities for old people.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ami eikhane bolechi . . . (I have also told . . .) Prabhupāda: You also take bath? Devotees: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Then, kothay . . . (where . . .) Prabhupāda: Taken already. Gurudāsa: No. Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun, ei jaygay bollum . . . hatt. . . . gyan debe amake . . . (indistinct) . . . age mandire jal debo. Ekhon sei lokta . . . (indistinct) . . . choto kakar kache, se amar nam janta, oh oke age niye yan . . . (indistinct Bengali) (See, here I told . . . (indistinct) . . . first you go to the temple. Now that person . . . to my younger uncle, he knew my name . . .) Gurudāsa: That bathing ghat by Bhaktivinode's . . . Lady: Hya eikhane, Prabhu takhon aseni, ami pratham . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Yes here, Prabhu hasn't come 'till then, first I . . .) Devotee: Yeah, I'll show you the temple. Gurudāsa: All right. Devotee: I'll just take you to the . . . Lady: Ei Hari Das. (Hey Hari Das.) Hari Das: Ki? (What?) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: You know that I just did a round by the birth site. It was wonderful. Devotee: Around of . . . (indistinct) . . . of beads Gurudāsa: Beads. Now I'll do some film. Lady: Chele gulon ki dustu, dekhechen? Chele gulo dustu kato phal curi kore niye palacche. (Have you seen, the naughty boys are running away after stealing fruits.) Prabhupāda: Ki? (What?) Lalitā Prasāda: Chelegulo palacche. (The boys are fleeing.) *Lady: Chola*-tola jinis niye-tiye cole yacche. (Taking away chickpeas and other things.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amar chola sob curi korche . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Stealing all my chickpeas . . .) *Lady: Takhane ekdin ei, hariken, hariken, ami takhan eka, voger thala eiram niye harikenta hater bhetar dharbar o lok nai, ami to dhore upare yabo, bhog niteo hobe. Rattire eram kore. Tarpore, teler control hoye gelo, kerosen ar mele na. To mombati jvaliye chi. Mombati ke niye haoay baisak-jaista mase upore otha yay? To ki korbo, se mombati ba-hate dhore thala, bhoger thala eram kore niye yacchi, se bari te bolar lok o nei. Chat kore majh khane sirite, alota nive . . . mombati ta nive gelo, se cokhe ekta jol . . . thakur ami ki kore tomar ei thala ami niye yai, thakur tumi alor byabasta karo, amra to sudra jiv ki kore korbo? Amar, amar emon divya cokshu nai ye, ami niye yai, tai bole sei sirir pore bhoger thala niye amar cokhe jal ese gelo. Thik tar pore Prabhu aslo ar chay maser bhetarei . . . (Then one day, this hariken (lantern), I will show you, taking the bhoga plate like this, taking the hariken inside the arm. No one available to hold, if someone could hold the lantern to go upstairs, to take the bhoga . Like this at night time. Then one day Govt. controlled the fuel supply, kerosene was out of stock. So light up the candle. But what is the use of a candle in the high wind of April to May evening. What to do, by holding the candle in the left hand and the plate of bhoga in the other hand, I was going, no*-one was there to help. Then on the way in the stair the candle blew out. Tears came to my eyes, I said: "Oh my Lord how will I bring the bhoga plate to you now, please arrange for some light Lord. We are sudra jiva , how will I be able to do it? I don't have any divine vision that I can bring," while thinking like this, standing in the stair with the bhoga plate, tears came out from my eyes. The next year Prabhu came and within six months this . . .) Prabhupāda: Electric. Lady: Ei . . . ei, electric alo ese gelo . . . alor byabsta karo. Ta sei sange sange siri te alo deoa chilo, siri diye uthe . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Electric light came . . . arrange for light. There was some light in the stair, getting up the stair . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . be at home, bari. Kono lajja korben na, ya kichu lagbe bolben, tairi kore debo . . . (home. Don't feel shy, whatever you will ask anyone to do, they will do it.) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya . . . lajja kiser? (Oh yes, we won't feel shy.) Lalitā Prasāda: Be at home. . . be at home. Śyāmasundara: BH . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Be at home. Prabhupāda: Be at home. Śyāmasundara: be at home. Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: We're at home. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: We are at our father's house. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, apnara ekhane korle . . . very good park hobe. Ar ek khana gari dhuke yabe. Mone karun ei gaye only two hours, jor kore calale . . . (indistinct) . . . dui ghantay Calcutta pauche yaben. (If you could do it here . . . that would be a very good park. And cars also can be parked. From this village it will take only two hours, if you drive the car very fast . . . (indistinct) . . . in two hours time you will reach Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Besh. (Well.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekjan thakla ki na boye gelo. (It does not matter if one stays here or not.) Prabhupāda: Na, eikhane to amader antata dash jan lok thakbe, ar apnader lok ache. Anabarata utsab hobe, kirtan hobe, ei sob korbe. (Actually about ten of our people will be staying here, and your people are also there. There will be continuous festivals, kirtanas , all these will be.) Lalitā Prasāda: Beshi lok theke gele . . . (If many people stay . . .) *Lady: . . . ei ye badmais chele gulor ki abasta. Oi dekho, rekhe abar asche. Ekshoni niye yabe, oi ye aat*-dash ta, baro, baro atharo bayos, kuri bachorer chele gulo, ki atyacar kore . . . (just see the condition of these wicked boys. See, again they are coming. About eight to ten, grown up boys, eighteen to twenty years of age, they torture us a lot.) Prabhupāda: Ki niye geche? (What did they take away?) *Lady: Pacta dab gacher, ekta yodi thakurer bhog dite dey, ei dab kine ante hoy. Erakam abasta. Chata narkel gacher, ei dui bachor*-tin er modhye ektao thakur ke bhog dite dey na. (Amongst five of the coconut trees, we don't get even a single green coconut for offering bhoga to Lord, this green coconut we have to purchase, this is the condition. Six coconut trees there, within this two to three years not a single coconut we get to offer for bhoga to Lord.) Prabhupāda: Sob, bhadra loker chele sob cor hoye yacche . . . (Boy is from decent family has become a thief . . .) Lady: Ei sob, ar schooler chelera. (These are all, and some school boys are also there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sono, (Listen,) whole Bengal, whole. *Lady: Eikhane chola*-mator lagiyechi, dekhen ardhek chola sesh kore niye geche, gacher okhane gelei faka-faka. Mator guloto sobi niye geche. Sei alpo duto thakbe, rattire saat tar samay hariken dhare ami, duto gach, se tule niye geche. Rakhena . . . curi kore niye geche. Eiram abasta. (We did some chickpeas and yellow split peas plantation here, half of the chickpeas plants have been taken away, the land became empty. The yellow split peas have taken it all. There were few left. I went there at 7:00 pm at night with a hariken in my hand, and found that they have taken away those also. They never leave something for us . . . they steal always. This is the condition.) Lalitā Prasāda: Even a single, all bengal . . . (indistinct) . . . all are thieves, all are worse. Lady: Ei bel, bel ache bhalo . . . T(his wood apple, good wood apple . . . ) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Ei upadrabta bandha kara yacche na kichutei . . . (indistinct) . . . bera bhenge dhuke, oi kore dey. (These disturbances could not be stopped in any way. . . . (indistinct) . . . by breaking the border fence, and do this.) Prabhupāda: Sob yodi cor . . . thag bachte gao ujar. Tahole r ki kore ki hobe? (When everyone is a thief, you won't find an honest man in the village. Then how anything can happen.) Lady: Eito muskil. (That's the problem.) *Lalitā Prasāda: O niye kichu bhab bar nei, beshi lok hole, ora bhoy peye yabe. Yodi dash*-baro jan thake . . . (indistinct) . . . korlei ora paliye yabe. Cheler dal to . . . (No need to be worried, when there will be more people here, they will be afraid. When there will be ten to twelve people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will flee away. Just a group of young boys . . .) Devotee: Ektake dhore ene, yodi rakha yay ghare, baki sob palie yabe. (If any one of them can be caught and kept hold in a room, the rest of them will run away.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ami ekhone ekjon, dui*-ekjonke dhore anba ye, ei dol theke . . . ar amake keu manena. Oi pas diye lukiye, lukiye yay. Ami, ki ye bale, ei bol curi korbi chele? 'Tobe ektu na hoy korechi, schoole gechi, school kore gechi, schooler kaj baniyechi'. Ajke school name eschis, kothay school toder? (If I caught one or two of them from this group . . . but no one cares about me. They go from that side by hiding. If I ask, "Hey child tell me will you steal again?" They answer, "What happens if we have stolen a little thing, but we went to school, finished the classes, done our all home tasks." You came in the name of school, where is your school?) Prabhupāda: Kiser lekha para? Sob baje lekha para. (What education? All nonsense studies.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ar ekhoni shikhchena. (They are learning nothing.) Prabhupāda: Cor, cor sob. (Thieves, all are thieves.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekebarei shikhchena. (Not learning at all.) Prabhupāda: Cor, bodmais. Esob Hari bha . . . Hari bhajan na korle, Hari bhakti na kore hoyeche. (All thieves and rascals. When Hari bhajan and Hari bhakti are not done, all these things happen.) Lady: Hya, erom hoy. (Yes, such things happen.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā ( SB 5.18.12) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: There's a place under this . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (reading newspaper) Ajker kagaje. (In today's newspaper.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Today's paper. Bengali devotee: Today's paper. Devotee: Bengali? Bengali devotee: Hya, Yes. You can't read. Lalitā Prasāda: Ei juta baire niye ya. (Take these shoes outside.) Lady: Gamcha ki debo? (Should we give you a gamcha ?) Madan: Gamcha dao to. (Give me the gamcha .) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Gamcha debo? Ei Madan. (Should we give you a gamchha ? Hey Madan.) Madan: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ekta gamcha ber kore dao. (Please bring one gamcha and give it.) Madan: Konta debo? (Which one to give?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Russia, France ar Britain. Bharat, Pak sarasari alocana cay. (Russia, France and Britain. Wants a direct dialogue between India and Pakistan.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dupakshi? (Bilateral?) Bengali devotee: Dupakshi, hya dupakshi. (Bilateral, yes bilateral.) (break) A tide of discussion between India and Pakistan. Russia. Greece, France and Britain want. Jayapataka: Narikel tyal ache? (Do you have coconut oil?) Lalitā Prasāda: Narikel tel? (Coconut oil?) Jayapataka: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Ki ache maa . . . suneni. Maa, narkel tel. (Yes. Let me ask mother. Mother, coconut oil.) Jayapataka: Narkal tel . . . (The coconut oil . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, asun, (aside) bati kore dao. Dhele dile na? Maa ke balo na. (No, now use from this bowl. (aside) Please pour it, ask mother.) Bengali Devotee: Maa ke balo ekta bati . . . bati to chilo. Dekhi . . . (Ask mother to give a bowl . . . bowl was there. Let me check . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Jayapataka: Ei jinish kothay rakhbo? (Where should we keep these things?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? (What?) Boy: Dada, oder gharta khule de na. (Brother please open that room for them.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ei ghar khule dao na. Eikhane, (Yes, open that room please. In that room,) nobody will go. You keep the key. You keep the key. Lady: Ei ghar khule diye ay, khule diye ay . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Go and open the room) . . . (break) Śyāmasundara: Ah? Lalitā Prasāda: I get sun. Śyāmasundara: Sun. You are out for sun also? Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, I am leaving. Śyāmasundara: So you are leaving? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Okay. Lalitā Prasāda: I get sun . . . in the winter sun come, come . . . that way. Śyāmasundara: So you will move over and sit here? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. I always sit . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Ah . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: That room. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: You're staying? Lady: Oi roome. In that room.) Śyāmasundara: We will sit there? Lalitā Prasāda: Nah. Bengali devotee: The room is. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . go with them. Śyāmasundara: That's all right I don't need to go anywhere. Lalitā Prasāda: You go, go with them. Bengali Devotee: You come with me. Lalitā Prasāda: There is another room. Śyāmasundara: All right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: Okay. (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: We want to walk. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . go there. Śyāmasundara: Okay, all right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Okay. Lalitā Prasāda: A guest. Śyāmasundara: We'll go see. Thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: Ar Bhaktivinod Thakurer hater lekha asirbad (The handwriting of Bhaktivinoda Thakur, it's a blessing . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali). Jayapataka: Hya, amio porchi. (Yes, I too am reading.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapataka: Amio porchi. (I am also reading.) Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinod eke ar oi amader Prabhupad ke khub bhalo basten. Ar ini choto chele, sneha ektu beshi hoy chotor opor. (Bhaktivinoda used to love our Prabhupada and him (Lalita Prasada) very much. And he is the youngest son, affection naturally grows more on the youngest.) (break) He looks like his father also. Śyāmasundara: His mother appears very beautiful also in those photos. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Shining face. That man is reading the newspaper to him. He will rest. Every day he gets all the news. Prabhupāda: This is the system, old aristocratic. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: Every old man should engage a man to read news. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Spread it. Śyāmasundara: On the ground? Prabhupāda: Yes. Watch the bottle. It will be dry within 10 minutes by the time I take my. Yadubara: I shouldn't wring that should I? *Prabhupāda: No, simply make this. Here that's all spread. Spread it that is sufficient. Hari*-nāma hari-nāma . It will be dry in 10 minutes. Yes he knows, that's it. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yadubara: Easy way to iron. Śyāmasundara: These are old temples? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: These are very old temples? Prabhupāda: Yes. At least 200 years. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Always they have worshipped Viṣṇu in this temple? Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to worship goddess Kali. Śyāmasundara: Oh, is that boy some relation? Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Just a friend. Society. A good boy. Prabhupāda: I have given him the suggestion the whole thing is solved in one minute. He also agrees. Śyāmasundara: Lease. Prabhupāda: Lease. Śyāmasundara: 99 years. Prabhupāda: That's it. Śyāmasundara: Not for proprietorship for development. Prabhupāda: What is the use of proprietorship? Śyāmasundara: What do we care? (laughs) Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: 99 years, our life, your life, your grand . . . your son's life . . . we have to give some service so long the body is there, otherwise what shall I do with the property? Everything will remain here. Śyāmasundara: He knows that you are in a position to develop it until some. Prabhupāda: Yes, 99. So one bucket cold water and one bucket hot water and one soap. Śyāmasundara: One hot and one cold . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda is a good massager. Śyāmasundara: Yes. How big is the property here? Does it extend around some distance? Prabhupāda: 20 bigas . Śyāmasundara: 20 bigas , oh that is large. Gurudāsa: Has he agreed to your proposals Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So we should get? Draw up some papers or? Prabhupāda: He'll do it. Śyāmasundara: He'll do it. Very nice. (laughs) So before you leave India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: All these things finished. (break) I was, I always used to dream that you would take us to these places. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: So we require a few cars from America. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Devotee: Jeeps. Śyāmasundara: I think heavy Jeeps. Prabhupāda: That is. Śyāmasundara: Cars like that rough. Devotee: Like UNICEF Jeeps. Śyāmasundara: Or Land Rovers. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if there is bathroom? No? Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . and some more men also I think are required. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa they'll all come out. Gurudāsa: They won't come anyway. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: In Jagannath Purī also. (break) Devotee (2): In Jagannath Purī also. Gurudāsa: Dvārkādīśa, where the boats. Śyāmasundara: Where is Dvārakā dhāma . Devotee: Dvārakā dhāma . Gurudāsa: Dvārakā dhāma when we get some amphibious Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . and was purchased by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura at Rs.150. Acyutānanda: All of it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Per biga? Prabhupāda: No, the whole plot. Acyutānanda: (laughs) Prabhupāda: That was 20 bigas. Śyāmasundara: In Māyāpur that man from the Caitanya Math has bought . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: That's about Rs.10. Less than Rs.10. (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . who had some excess money in hand. (break). After producing they want cash in their hand. The capitalist will take, hold it for some time naturally the price will increase and they will sell it. That system is still going on but it is very dangerously made. People do not bring out the commodity they simply speculate, "I purchased from you, you purchase it from me," so the goods are there and transaction is going on. I sell to you, you sell to him, you sell so on and people do not get the goods. There is scarcity and it is lying somewhere and the speculation is going on. Śyāmasundara: Somewhere else. Prabhupāda: Yes. And because the goods are not coming the market is increasing, you see. This rogueism is going on and there are so many banks although I have no money. Suppose I want to purchase one lakh worth of grains. Somehow or other if I have Rs.20,000 the bank will give me 80,000. So the market is increasing, I'm not selling and when it is to my full satisfaction I sell, I pay the banks money and take a large huge profit. This is going on, in every commodity. Things are not coming out it has become gold exchange. But they will sell just at the beginning of the next season. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise they will be put into knots. (break) Śyāmasundara: No, no as long as you are here I'm not afraid. Prabhupāda: Ah, the population has decreased. Śyāmasundara: They have driven them away. Or killed them. Prabhupāda: When there is . . . just like you do not go to the forest . . . (indistinct) . . . infested with many animals. Similarly they also do not come to the human society and the bigger population. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This is the safe, bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syād (SB 11.2.37), for forgetting Kṛṣṇa all the living entities they are afraid of one another. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That's all. They have forgotten that Kṛṣṇa is the centre he is our father. So there is no fear but that they have forgotten. Now, īśād apetasya viparyayo 'smṛtiḥ , they have forgotten that we are brothers. Therefore fight, we have got equal rights to enjoy the father's property but no, I am taking more you are starving, this is going on. Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all these questions. If everyone has got the right to enjoy father's property why one should take more? This is the best idea of communism, these things are there in Bhāgavata . Bhāgavata says whatever there is in the sky, whatever there is on the land and whatever there is on the water they belong to the Supreme Lord. So every living entity has the right to enjoy it as it is allotted by the Lord. This is Bhāgavata's contribution. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. In other words if a man is born a King he is allowed to enjoy like a King? Prabhupāda: Yes King is to manage these affairs. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: That everything is property of God, you are all sons of God. So King's business is to see that nobody is encroaching upon other's property. Nobody is fighting and he equally distributes the produce, that is the King's duty. He has to see that whether brahmin's are executing their duty, kṣatriya's , vaiśyas according to our division, this is King's duty. To make him Kṛṣṇa conscious but King is simply interested with the tax. No education, so*-called King, then King is finished, now the people have taken in the name of people's government but it is an oligarch. *It is for the interests of a few men and all of them rogues and thieves just like Gandhi started indigenous manufacture. Buy sell car, manufacturing one's own cloth, now that became a show and the government started big big factories owned by capitalists. So Britishers were taking one rupee and eight annas per pair and they are now taking twenty*-one rupees eight annas. Twenty times increase, government does not say anything because they are getting tax in different ways, excise tax, sales tax, income tax and the tax is distributed amongst the government servants. People do not get any benefit. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: 20% from the tax collected, they distribute for the people's welfare and 80% they divided, divided by the governors, rastrapatis, secretaries and government servants—this is the position. One side the capitalist is exploiting and the government is taking tax from them and government means a few men they are enjoying, that's it. This is all over the world I can see, and they want that the people should be engaged in fighting in the name of nationalism and they will enjoy that's all. They have no good idea for the betterment of the position of the citizens. What we are doing every government should have done it—Kṛṣṇa consciousness but the rascals they simply plunder the citizens and enjoy. Wine women and flesh—this is the position. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . there are mlecchas and taking the dress of the King, killing the whole world. (break). Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . foundation, foundation age, foundation korte khub beshi deri korte hobe na, ekhane ek khana foundation korlei building hote parbe, kintu America . . . ei iye . . . Mayapure amar bisvas nei. Kondin ki hobe sunle, uriye debe sob (first foundation, you shouldn't be late to make foundation, just foundation for a single story structure will be ok to make the building, but in Māyāpur I don't have faith. It's full of uncertainty, they will blow away everything . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Mahaprabhu yakhan sannyas niye chilen. (Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa then.) Lalitā Prasāda: Mahaprabhur sannyaser chay bachor por . . . (Six years after Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . tai, sholo bachor ar panera bachor, kato? Sholo ar panera diye ekatrish bachor, takhan Mahaprabhu dakshiner dik ghure esche, ekatrish bachore, abar Shantipur chilo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (so here sixteen years and fifteen years, how much, total thirty one years, then Mahāprabhu returned from his trip to south india, at thirty one year, that time from Shantipur . . .) 12 lakhs of Nadia and all under the . . . (indistinct) . . . and you are putting a temple on that land or nice, (below,) that is river bed. That's why I suggest. Below you, take the site, active site. Tar modhye theke bili korte hobe. (Even then also, you have to distribute from there.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . start by . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Amar, amar, amar ya experience ache. (Mine, mine, mine experience is like this.) Prabhupāda: Otherwise there is meeting 4 o'clock? Śyāmasundara: Not today. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Not today tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Not tomorrow. The press reporter? Śyāmasundara: Oh is there a press meeting? Gurudāsa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: The press reporters from Navadvīpa will come. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: After four. So we must reach there by five, it will take 2 ½ hours. So by half past two we must get out. Lalitā Prasāda: Half past two to kam hoy, two er pore yaba yakhan darkar hoy. (Half past two is not sufficient, better to leave after two.) Prabhupāda: Let us . . . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Damodarer prasad dile . . . ekhon to amra ready. (What about Damodar's prasādam , we are ready now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eito hoye yabe. (aside) Ya na ekhan theke, cole ya . . . (It's almost done. (aside) You go from here, go away . . .) Śyāmasundara: So at about 2 o'clock I will begin working on the car and try to make that horn work. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Without horn, not possible? Śyāmasundara: No, well we can do that again. (laughs) Prabhupāda: What's wrong with that? Śyāmasundara: It's dangerous. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell, ringing a bell. Śyāmasundara: Dinner plate. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Hanging bell Ghanta. (Gong.) Śyāmasundara: No Prabhupāda's plate. You know plate? Brass plate. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Bell we use that. Śyāmasundara: Oh Yeah (laughs). Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Ding dong bell. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Gurudāsa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( Japa ) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) (break) (Prabhupāda's recording Bengali conversation) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Oh Hari Das . . . Oh Hari . . . Ki holo? (What's the status?) Hari: Hya, baba hocche. (It's underway.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog utheche? (Has the bhoga offerings done?) Hari: Hya, bhog uthbe ekhoni. (Yes, almost over. It will be taken out.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh Uthbe ekhoni. (All right. Oh will be taken out now. All right) . . . light lagche? Casma . . . (light is there, eyeglass . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, casma na . . . (No, no eyeglass . . .) (break) na amar casma ache. (I have my eyeglass.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, taito bolchi. Dan coktay ekdom dekhte paina, ba cokta alpo. (Yes, that's what I am telling. Right eye has no vision, left eye has little.) Sideways, side view . . . kaj sere ni . . . (can do my work . . .) Śyāmasundara: Only from the side? Lalitā Prasāda: All back. Śyāmasundara: Only from the side? Lalitā Prasāda: On, on that. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: This side. Śyāmasundara: Left side? Lalitā Prasāda: Left side . . . (indistinct) . . . for me heavy. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Ah . . . no eyeglasses? Lalitā Prasāda: Eyeglasses. I do use, but this is of, onto. Coming cataract. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Full of cataract. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: See here, I can swap. This you can check. This side I can see. *Śyāmasundara: Ah . . . one eye is better than no. A one*-eyed uncle is better than no uncle. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . this eye I had no view . . . (indistinct) . . . I want that operate. I want a doctor to test my eye. Well life is shortened that way. Life is shortened. Devotees: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: If I operate and remove the cataract life will be shortened. Gurudāsa: Oh yes, yes. Lalitā Prasāda: The affect on the whole system. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes that's a fact. Lalitā Prasāda: And even if I live for 100 years you, you, you have to die 40 years ago, or before . . . (indistinct) . . . any operation lessens the longevity of life. Gurudāsa: Yes yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Longevity. Gurudāsa: Longevity of life. Because then something else has to replace that . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Blood circulation stopped and there . . . (indistinct) . . . you are now young men When you will be old, you will understand the difficulty . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: The . . . (indistinct) . . . strengths are diminished. Diminished. Śyāmasundara: Hmm . . . but when you are speaking on religious subjects then your strength comes out? Lalitā Prasāda: Beg your pardon? Śyāmasundara: You said that when you are speaking on religious subjects then your strength comes out. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes, yes, yes. On religious, I don't see any difficulty. A strength of joy up heaven. God sends His, I don't know. Amra ei bar, ei bangaly korechilam, ei ye banglay korechilam . . . onek . . . (indistinct) . . . ek ekjan bole amra diye yabo . . . amra diye yabo . . . (indistinct) (laughs) . . . lokgulo dustu. (Once we did the Bengali version of it, did it in Bengali . . . many . . . (indistinct) . . . people said we will return you back . . . will return you back . . . (indistinct) (laughs) . . . naughty people.) The very people who sing the name of God and know what is holy. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: They're servants of māyā . Gurudāsa: Servants of māyā . Lalitā Prasāda: The illusory energy, I call. Illusory energy. Illusion. Gurudāsa: Yes illusion. Lalitā Prasāda: Illusory energy is māyās shakti . Illusory energy. Have you bed? Bedding? Śyāmasundara: Bedding? Yes they are in Māyāpur. Lalitā Prasāda: In Māyāpur in the early morning. Śyāmasundara: In our camp. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . another morning at Ganges. (gong sounds) Śyāmasundara: Yes we go bathing there. *Lalitā Prasāda: That was the original coast, 400 years ago, the original coast was . . . (indistinct) . . . jan*-nagar straight to the north, up to . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm . . . up to Gandhinagar. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Lalitā Prasāda: . . . jan*-nagar. And Ganga nagar it tries to, Took turn . . . and then it changed towards South. Towards East and then it goes a bit further, and that was the position which were once . . . 400 years ago, 500 years ago . . . (indistinct) . . . when Māyāpur was discovered again, Ṭhākura expressed. But again that stopped, the course have taken another way, by Ramchandrapur's other side, other end . . . (indistinct) . . . I have already written a small narratori how the Ganges shifted from one side to another . . . (indistinct) . . . about twenty miles Ganges shifted than there . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. 20 miles? Lalitā Prasāda: Bangladesh and Māyāpur. And there are 12 lakhs of people on the mainland where you are now building this thing. Śyāmasundara: Hmm? 12 lakhs ? Lalitā Prasāda: 12 lakhs . Now . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Biggest temple in Bengal. We are rising. Lalitā Prasāda: That will be. Śyāmasundara: Yes. One of the biggest in India. Lalitā Prasāda: And, that is declared. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Longest. Longest. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Tallest. Lalitā Prasāda: Longest. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: 200 feet in Bengal there is no higher than this. Jagannath temple near . . . (indistinct) . . . Jagannath Purī that is 108 feet high. Śyāmasundara: 180? Lalitā Prasāda: Twelve thousand, twelve thousand twenty eight, two hundred ten . . . (indistinct) . . . here, here in this picture. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: You know this? Gurudāsa: Yes in Orissa. Lalitā Prasāda: Orissa. Śyāmasundara: In San Francisco California we have New Jagannath Purī. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh yes. Śyāmasundara: In San Francisco. Lalitā Prasāda: At San Francisco. *Śyāmasundara: And we have every year a big Ratha*-yātrā. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes flyer I've seen. Śyāmasundara: You've seen picture? Lalitā Prasāda: I've seen a picture. *Śyāmasundara: (laughs) And in London also Ratha*-yātrā. Lalitā Prasāda: Very good. In London her Majesty should join the Ratha. I think there is a picture. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Candra eh? Śyāmasundara: I think we have now six temples in England. Lalitā Prasāda: Six? Śyāmasundara: Six temples in England. Lalitā Prasāda: One in eh? Śyāmasundara: London, Birmingham. Lalitā Prasāda: Birmingham. Śyāmasundara: Manchester. Lalitā Prasāda: Manchester. Śyāmasundara: Cardiff. Lalitā Prasāda: Cardiff. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Gurudāsa: Edinburgh. Śyāmasundara: Edinburgh. Lalitā Prasāda: Edinburgh? Śyāmasundara: Scotland and Dublin. Lalitā Prasāda: Edinburgh, Dublin? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Ireland and Scotland. Śyāmasundara: Yes Ireland and Scotland. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes all right . . . *Gurudāsa: (sings along with kīrtana in background) bhaja bhakata*-vatsala śrī-gaurahari . Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. In London there are two classes of men. One . . . (indistinct) . . . in Ireland and another . . . (indistinct) . . . Irish in England? Śyāmasundara: In London? Lalitā Prasāda: London, no Ireland. Śyāmasundara: Ireland. Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Ireland is something independent? Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Not under the British rule? Śyāmasundara: No. British have lost their rule everywhere. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes everywhere yes Americans have . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Because they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they will be saved, America. Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: America is now taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in America . . . Lalitā Prasāda: New York? Śyāmasundara: Everywhere. America is taking to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. Lalitā Prasāda: Simple. Śyāmasundara: Simple. Lalitā Prasāda: America . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: No. Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: In all the states? Śyāmasundara: All the big cities. Lalitā Prasāda: All the states? Śyāmasundara: over 60 temples in America. Established by Prabhupāda. Lalitā Prasāda: In the States, where the states? United States of America. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Every big city, one big big temple. Lalitā Prasāda: And everyday pūjā is done. Śyāmasundara: Throughout the day. Lalitā Prasāda: Worshiping done. Eh. Śyāmasundara: All through, starting. Maṅgala-ārati starts 4 o'clock. maṅgala-ārati , maṅgala-ārati 4 o'clock. Lalitā Prasāda: 4 o'clock. Śyāmasundara: Morning. Lalitā Prasāda: Morning. Śyāmasundara: Going up to sundara-ārati 9 o'clock at night. And throughout the day at least 10, 12 ārati. 10 or 12 times, prasādam is offered, ārati. Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog bhog . Śyāmasundara: Bhog . Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog . Oh, aloo bhajche? Bolna. (Hey, are they frying potatoes? Please tell me.) Bengali Devotee: Hya, aloo bhajche. (Yes frying potatoes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Yan na, yan na apnara. (You all can now go there, please go) . . . you go, yan . . . (please go.) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: You go, some of you go. Yan na. (Please go) . . . (indistinct) . . . opore, opore yan. (Upstairs, please go upstairs.) Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Mṛdaṅga. Get mṛdaṅga there . . . (indistinct) . . . mrdanga bajabar lok kam. (Not many mṛdaṅga players today.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ajke mṛdaṅga bajanor lok kam. (Not many mṛdaṅga players today.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kakhana kakhana dhile hoye yay. (Sometimes these get loosened.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, amader ekhane dheke ni. Tabe bajale khub bhalo, khub . . . (No, here we keep them covered. When they play, very good . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Bangladeshta baddo patan hoye geche. (Bangladesh has now degraded too much.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ek bare, ek bare, ek bare. (Yes, very true, very true, very true.) Prabhupāda: Ora rakshas hoye geche. (They have become like monsters.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sakale bole ami bhagavan . . . bhagavan kotha theke tumi . . . (indistinct) . . . bhagavan pabi kothyeke? . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Everybody says that I am God . . . how can you be God . . . (indistinct) . . . how will you get God . . .) Śyāmasundara: You don't eat? Lalitā Prasāda: By the grace of God. One may get some milk . . . (indistinct) . . . five years . . . they are bhaktas they can approach to Godhead. (indistinct) . . . (shouts) Ora ki korche? Ki korche? Son na. Ya, paliye ya. Ei . . . ei jalatan koris na. Bari ya. (laughs) Badarer dol. (What are they doing? What are they doing? Come here. Go, all get lost. Don't disturb us here. Go home. (laughs) All are monkeys.) They are like monkeys. Śyāmasundara: Monkeys? Lalitā Prasāda: These boys are like monkeys. (laughs) Ke Hari Das? Tariye diye ay na sob kota ke. (Is it Hari das? Just drive them all out.) Hari das: Cole geche. (They have gone.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, lock diye cole ay . . . (indistinct) . . . ora sob khabe, bel khabe, kul khabe, e khabe . . . (Yes, you come inside and close the gate. They will eat all the fruits, they will eat wood*-apple, berries, these and that . . .) *Prabhupāda: Am*-tam hole sob niye yay ora? (Mango and other fruits they take all?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, oi am tole. Ami sei jonye am gulo bikr kore di . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes, eat mangoes. That's why we sell the mangoes . . .) Prabhupāda: Ki sob lok hoye geche. (What people have become now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ta pore gelo amader kapal, oder yodi pore yay takhan amader loksan hobe, bhalo to hobe. Amra ki korbo . . . Raghaber jonye . . . (indistinct) . . . bajare . . . (indistinct) . . . Raghab sob jane . . . (indistinct) . . . amrai raksha korbo, apni byasta hoben na. Ami lok . . . lok lagiye raksha korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . am niye paliye yabe, kaca am niye . . . (indistinct) . . . hya sob karbo, kintu moteo sob kore na . . . (indistinct) . . . ki bolbo apnake, eikhane ek bachor hoyeche, ki abasta. Ami sudhu ei gram ti tairi korechi, Nagen babu cole yabar por dash bachor, amader hate chay bachor rakha chilo, ekti lok chilona ye raksha kore . . . (indistinct) . . . se amake jor eram kore haat dhore bolbe, apni age basun, ar ei chairman hon . . . (indistinct) . . . kore diye, bole apni ei raksha korun . . . (indistinct) . . . lok khepe gelo . . . dui hajar sai hoye gelo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (They said like that, now it's our luck. If taken like this, then we will suffer loss, otherwise it may be good. What can we do . . . for Raghab only . . . (indistinct) . . . in the market, Raghab knows it all . . . (indistinct) . . . said we will protect, you please don't worry. I will protect with my people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will flee with the unripe mangoes . . . (indistinct) . . . they say they will do, but actually they don't do all that is needed . . . (indistinct) . . . what to say to you, about the situation here since one year. I just helped to make this village, after leaving of Nagen babu, ten years back from today, six years we manage, no one was here to protect . . . (indistinct) . . . one day he caught my hand and said you please be the chairman . . . (indistinct) . . . after doing that, said now you protect this . . . people got agitated . . . two thousand signatures collected . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Dui hajar jan soi kore dile hoye gelo, municipality mitiye yak. (Two thousand signatures are done, let the municipality be dismantled.) Prabhupāda: Ki mitiye debe? (What to dismantle?) Lalitā Prasāda: Municipality. Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . municipality . . . (indistinct) Lady: Bhaktader ke prasad debo? (Should we serve prasadam to the devotees now?) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (to Lady) Maa onra bolechen, amra dutor age cole yabo. Prasad peye ektu jiriye . . . (They are saying that before 2:00 pm they will leave. After taking Prasadam little rest . . .) Lady: It's ready. Hoye geche to sob. Bhog uthe geche, ami pata ketechi. Oke bollam dhuye ene dite. (All are done. Offering bhoga is also done, I have cut the leaf, and ask him to wash.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . aj dekhen sei municipality royeche (. . . just see that the municipality is still there 'till this date.) Prabhupāda: Amra prasad peye ni. (Let us take prasadam .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Kato kasto korechi ei gulor jonya, onek kasto korechi ami. (Yes. I have taken a lot of trouble for that, a lot of trouble I have taken.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . let us go . . . call them. Śyāmasundara: We are going now? Prabhupāda: No. Then later. Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, era dujon naki khaben na, phal khaben. (Came to know that two people will not take lunch, they will be taking fruit instead.) Who are two? You will not . . . take lunch? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Some, some of . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh yes there is one boy he has jaundice. One boy. Lalitā Prasāda: Take fruit juice? Śyāmasundara: Only fruits, fruits, that's all. I think he takes. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . that is the difficulty. Śyāmasundara: At this time of year? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. However whatever I got, I have done it. Śyāmasundara: Ah. (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . you go. Śyāmasundara: All right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . break it, these are costly things very costly. Śyāmasundara: About Rs.1000. Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Rs.1000 Lalitā Prasāda: 1000, oh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . bad work there is. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work . . . Śyāmasundara: Where? Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work. Śyāmasundara: Bad work. Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work. Śyāmasundara: Bad work. Lalitā Prasāda: Work Śyāmasundara: Ah. (referring to bad workmanship in the house and advising to beware) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . earn the money. Śyāmasundara: Ah. But on good work, nothing. About one rupee. Lalitā Prasāda: Take it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Onara upare gechen, upar theke neme tarpore . . . (They have gone upstairs, after coming down . . .) Śyāmasundara: Oh, he will, I will. I would like to bring my wife and my child everybody in . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Everybody, who will be everybody? Śyāmasundara: Well maybe? How long it takes by train to come here? How long by train to come here? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. Two hours. Śyāmasundara: Two hours by train from Māyāpur, from Navadvīpa? Lalitā Prasāda: Navadvīpa by train . . . (indistinct) . . . 20 minutes. Śyāmasundara: 20 minutes? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . is five minutes. 10 miles from this place. Śyāmasundara: From here to Navadvīpa? *Lalitā Prasāda: Here to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. 10 miles. *Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa*-nagar? Ah. *Lalitā Prasāda: Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. Kṛṣṇa-nagar to Māyāpur is 8 miles. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . ah. I see in total 18 miles. Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . straight, Māyāpur. Śyāmasundara: Okay. Yeah. *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . not long distance . . . (indistinct) . . . you go to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar, then you go to launch ghat , then you go to Māyāpur . . . *Śyāmasundara: So from here there is train direct to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. Lalitā Prasāda: If you go . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah straight. Lalitā Prasāda: Straight, you make a straight line. Śyāmasundara: Yeah (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Dako. (Call them.) Bengali Devotee: Aschen, onara aahnik korchen, aste pabe na. (They will come, now they are doing prayers, can't come now.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Onara bisram korben. (They will take rest.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ke? (Who?) Bengali Devotee: Guru Mahārāja. Lalitā Prasāda: Kothay? (Where?) Bengali Devotee: Oi ghare. (In that room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon ghare? (Which room?) Bengali Devotee: Parar ghare. (Reading room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Parar ghare royeche? (Are they in the reading room now?) Bengali Devotee: Na, kheye deye tarpor . . . (No, after taking lunch they will . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Prasad pacchen. (Having prasadam .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Maharaj khacche? (Is Mahārāja eating?) Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Okay we will go. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (kīrtana in background) (indistinct) . . . ei, shon na, oder niye ay, oder basiye de, khabar hoye geche . . . (indistinct) . . . bujhli . . . (hey, bring them, make them sit there, food is ready . . . (indistinct) . . . have you understood . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lalitā Prasāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . what you want somebody comes? Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: You want . . . (indistinct) . . . comes? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . bhijiye niye asi. (You will . . . (indistinct) . . . let me bring it after soaking.) Lalitā Prasāda: Alpo kore niye ne, baire, bhijiye na, jal kharap hoye yabe, ekta mage kore niye dhuye dao, mage . . . mage dhuba, ek mag jal niye yaba, bujhle . . . (Take a little bit, outside, don't by putting it in the water, then water will become bad, take in a mug and wash it, mug . . . mug wash in the mug, go with a mug of water, understood . . .) (indistinct Bengali conversation) Bengali Devotee: Apnar khaoa hoye . . . onar khaoar age apnar khaoa hoye yabe . . . hm khub slow . . . (Your lunch will be over before him . . . hmm very slow . . .) (indistinct Bengali conversation) Bengali Devotee: Ei ye, apnar ei album theke onek photo kom kore dite hobe . . . mane album theke . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer. (Have to reduce some photos from your album . . . album . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei . . . ei bengal, photo ta niye aso . . . ki likhbe? . . . (indistinct) . . . lekho. (Please bring the photo of Bengal . . . what will you write? . . . (indistinct) . . . write.) (break) Gurudāsa: Passport? Lalitā Prasāda: Passport . . . in all the world. Gurudāsa: In what year? Lalitā Prasāda: 38. Gurudāsa: 38. Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: When I retired from service. Gurudāsa: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Just I asked my officer to give me a passport. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: It took me only five minutes. Gurudāsa: Five minutes? Lalitā Prasāda: Jawaharlal Nehru gave me a passport. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: He took 5 minutes, I offer you, six, there was six also to get passport and I only got it within two minutes, five minutes. The passport officer there assistant in charge, he was astonished, "How could he issue?" But you're officer is my officer. Gurudāsa: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Here find everywhere, oh. And he came . . . (indistinct) . . . to get the passport to a seat . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Jaya. Lalitā Prasāda: That passport is still with me. Little things . . . (indistinct) . . . I couldn't go very early. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: My health is permitting. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: I present you God's position (laughs) I got ill . . . sick. Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: So I haven't done that. Because my father that Bhaktivinoda told me, "You do not go out of India." Gurudāsa: Oh he told you? Lalitā Prasāda: Still I could go . . . (indistinct) . . . got the passport. Gurudāsa: Oh still that is . . . then you got ill. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes and his wish must be fulfilled. So I got a little. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: I couldn't move. Gurudāsa: Haribol. Lalitā Prasāda: Bhaktivinoda Thakur's wish, how can I disobey? Gurudāsa: Yes. Impossible. Lalitā Prasāda: Though I tried to do it. But. Gurudāsa: Impossible. Lalitā Prasāda: And his wish is on him. Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: And they have come and brought you. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes… Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . I rented, I rented just as . . . but (break) I rented, I rented . . . but in Bengali . . . Gurubandana . . . you don't do read Bengali otherwise I would have shown you . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: He very glad to see me. Number of issues . . . ora ekta kagaj ber korto . . . (they used to publish one paper . . .) issue, issue, second issue . . .ar baki ekti, sob complete ache, oi padya gulo (. . . rest all have complete, that poetry.) Prabhupāda: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Bangla, bangla padya, bhalo laglo? (Bengali, Bengali poetry, did you like it?) Prabhupāda: Besh sundar, ati sundar. (Very nice, excellent.) (break) Lalitā Prasāda: Onek bachor kore, ar noy . . . ei ye Uniso tirish sale, ekattiris sale, bujhlen? (For many years . . . in those days from 1930 or 31, do you know?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ekattiris sale. (Of the year 1931.) Prabhupāda: Ekattiris sal. Onek din age. (1931. Many days ago.) Lalitā Prasāda: Baba bar korto, ei kagaj khan ber korto. Takhan, dada bolle . . . dekhun . . . bolle amar kshati hocche, mejh di ke bollen. Ami bollam, tumi yodi erokom korbe . . . ami ki korbo cup kore lukiye roilum . . . (indistinct) . . . amar kshati hocche. Ami kshati korchi? Dao bandha kore dao . . . (indistinct) . . . elo sob kagaj patra niye . . . ya kichu niye cole gelo. Oi sob rekhe diyeche. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . sobta dini, namtao railo . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhono korto, ami korchi na, pacjan sange nei bole. Ar ami ek bachor ber korechi. Oder noa da bolle, lobhe amar kshati korchi. Ami bollam, ami kshati korlam dadar? Ami bhalo katha bolchi loke . . . kshatita ki korlam? Na loke ar paisa debe na oke. Paisa to ami cai na, yodi kshati hoy, ami kshati korbo na. Paisa . . . ami kshati korbo na. Kaj bandha, noile kaj . . . ajke ami likhle kato jinish beroto . . . (Father used to publish this paper. Then . . . brother said that I am incurring loss, he said this to my middle sister. I said if you say like this . . . I silently hid myself . . . (indistinct) . . . I am incurring loss. Is it me who is causing this loss, then close it . . . . (indistinct) . . . then they came and took away all the papers and documents. All were kept. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . didn't give the ownership, the name is also retained . . . (indistinct) . . . not starting it now as I don't have any companion, because I have no people. I published it for one year. Noa da (one of the elder brothers) said to them that I am causing him monetary loss by my greed. I said, am I causing loss to my elder brother. I was telling good words but people . . . . what loss did I incurred? That no one will pay him again. I didn't want money . . . I will not make a loss. Money . . . will not make any loss. Work stopped, but if I could have been writing then many things could be published today.) Prabhupāda: Ekhan oi amader sei Gosvami Maharaj din `kato caliyechen. (Now that Goswami Mahārāja ran for few days.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Yatai karun dekhun . . . thik yatai koruk, direct tar . . . Srila Bhaktivinod Thakurer mukh theke tar . . . (indistinct) . . . tar bhab bhangi, tar balbar iye . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhen ni. Ekhene . . . ei . . . oi saheb ra esechilo onno khub baro baro, chobi dui*-ek khana chilo na. Sei number, saat numbere, ogulo . . . baki gulo korechi, tin bachor korechi. Ei sob bhanga, dekhun, eikhane sob bhanga kicchu nei, ei darja, jalna parjanta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekta darja chilo na, ekta kori chilo na. Kori kine ene pariyechi. (Whatever you may do, hearing directly from . . . Srila BhaktiVinoda Thakura's mouth of his . . . (indistinct) . . . his emotions and bodily postures . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not seen that. Here . . . in this place . . . once some great Britishers have come and one or two pictures of them were there. All those and the other seven I rescued, did it for three years there. All broken, see, all are broken here, nothing intact, from this door to windows . . . (indistinct) . . . not a single door was there, no frame. I bought and fitted it.) Prabhupāda: Sob niye geche. (All taken away.) Lalitā Prasāda: Egulo sob bhanga . . . (indistinct) . . . chad pore geche, ekhene du manus garta, ek manus du manus garta . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpor ekhene baro, baro gach chilo, sei gach guloke fello erom kore, oi . . . oi beray giye daram kore porlo. Bat gach, Asathya gach. (These are all broken . . . (indistinct) . . . the roof collapsed, here big holes with the depth of about one to two men height . . . (indistinct) . . . then there were big big trees, those trees removed like in this way that, those fall down with a sound over the wall. Banyan tree, Peepal tree.) Prabhupāda: Eto baro gach. (Such big trees.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eto baro gach. Sei chobi . . . kothay ekhon ber korte parbo na . . . (indistinct) . . . ber kore rakhbo ek samay, dekhben kiram gach chilo oi gulo. Eguloy bahu taka kharca hoyeche, ei gulo uddhar korte, mandirke tairi korte. Ekta kac chilo na, kac ekhana chilo na, ekta jalna darja chilo na, sob fak, ekhaneo fak . . . (Such big trees. Picture . . . don't know where it is now . . . will find out sometime later, see yourself what type of trees were those. Huge amount of money spent to renovate and build the temple. Not a single piece of glass was there, nor door and windows, all open spaces here and there . . .) Prabhupāda: Onekdin khali porechilo. (It was abandoned for many days.) Lalitā Prasāda: Saat bachchar. Bagh thakto. (Seven years. Tigers used to stay.) Prabhupāda: Bagh thakto. (Tigers used to stay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ami onek bachchar korechi, kintu parisodh deoar lok chilo na. Apni bolechilen dekhben, amar baro ananda hocchilo, apnara yodi korben didha nei . . . (indistinct) . . . sarthak holo . . . (I worked very hard, but no one was there to reciprocate. I was feeling very glad when you were telling what you see, if you do something here then I have no hesitation . . . (indistinct) . . . would be successful.) Prabhupāda: Sotti, ar era sob dekhbe. (That's true, they will look after.) Lalitā Prasāda: Era yodi bangla sikhe, tahole to hobe. (It will be very good if they can learn Bengali.) Prabhupāda: Bangla sikhche, oi ye Acyutananda . . . (Learning Bengali, that Acyutananda . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Acyut khub sikhche. Acyut khub sikhche. (Acyut learned very nicely, Acyut learned very nicely.) Prabhupāda: Give me water, cold water. Lalitā Prasāda: Cold water. Oh. Hari Das. Hari. (Ah. Hari Das. Harii.) Hari: Aschi. (Coming.) Lalitā Prasāda: Cold water dao, thanda jal. (Give cold water. Cold water.) Śyāmasundara: Cold water? Lalitā Prasāda: Onek din dhore, bujhlen, ami ki korbo? Ami boka lok, cup kore pore thaki, ami . . . (For many days, you see, for many days . . . what should I do, I am a foolish man, just remain seated silently, I . . .) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . oi thik ache. Amaderke odik ta lease diye den . . . (That's appropriate. Just give us a lease for that side . . .) *Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, apni jagater loker eto upokar korchen, ye ami r parlum na, ami khali dui*-ek khan chele rekhechilam . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhaktivinoder katha uni sob guloi bole gelen, r baki yodi kichu thake amar mukhe sikhiyechen tai . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes, you are doing good for all the world, I couldn't refuse, I just kept two or three boys . . . (indistinct) . . . the teaching of Bhaktivinoda all were spread by him (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura), and remain part which were taught me, that . . .) taking notes (laugh) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . bollen tomader keu philosophy porbe. . . . (indistinct) . . . Stever . . . (indistinct) . . . amake dekhate parbe college? . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhalum . . . bollen . . . bollen nah, cheleta kichu sikheche bote, ta ei sampurna bangla ekhono bujhte pareni, kichu sikheche . . . (said who teaches you philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . Steve . . . (indistinct) . . . will you show me once in the college . . . so I showed him . . . then he said the man has learned something for sure but complete Bengali will not yet understand, have learnt something) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Edike kar photo eta? (Whose photo is this, here at this side?) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo amar photo, onek bachor ager, takhon choto chilam mota chilum. Dos bachor, egaro bachor ager . . . panero bachor ager kar photo. Tabe Bhaktivinod Thakurer chobi ei suit case rekhechi . . . (indistinct) . . . kalke . . . (It's my photo, many years ago, then my body was bulky. About ten*-eleven or fifteen years, many years ago. But I kept Bhaktivinoda Tahkura's photo here in this suitcase . . . (indistinct) . . . tomorrow . . .) Gurudāsa: You also photographed that portrait? Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: You also photographed that portrait? Lalitā Prasāda: Fo . . .? Gurudāsa: That famous photo. Lalitā Prasāda: Photo? Gurudāsa: You photograph that one? Lalitā Prasāda: You like photography? Gurudāsa: Acha, that one is famous all around the world. Lalitā Prasāda: All over the world. Gurudāsa: All over the world. Lalitā Prasāda: That photo was framed by me, originally. You saw in the album? Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: That was very photo. Gurudāsa: But this one especially. Yadubara: He has that on the album also. Gurudāsa: It is very famous . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Tinte camera enechilo bidesh theke. Ekta nilo Pradyutma, ar ekta nilo iye . . . Kasim Alir chele. (Received three cameras from foreign. One taken by Pradyutma, another taken by the son of . . . the son of Kasim Ali.) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Lalitā Prasāda: Tinte photographer . . . (indistinct) . . . ekta nile Pradyutma, ekta Kasim Alir chele, Mahindra . . . chele ekta kinle, ar ami ekta kinlum . . . (indistinct) . . . khub first class . . . (indistinct) . . . r sei camera diye onek gulo chobi tulechilum. (Three photographers . . . (indistinct) . . . Pradyutma took one, the son of Kasim Ali, Mahindra . . . son got one, and I got one . . . (indistinct) . . . very good, first class . . . with that camera I took many pictures.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: You can ask Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Prabhupāda? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . yato Kolkatar bhadralok chilo, sob ami . . . (indistinct) . . . niye gechilam, ye baba colegelen, ei amar dada achen . . . (indistinct) . . . collis taka kore bari bhara korlum oi Halsibagane . . . (indistinct) . . . Mayapur theke . . . (indistinct) . . . kole bose . . . (indistinct) . . . gari kore kore loker . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . whoever notable gentleman was there at Kolkata, everyone came . . . (indistinct) . . . took him, father passed away, my elder brother is here . . . (indistinct) . . . rented a house for 40 rupees at Halsibagan. From Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . by sitting on lap . . . (indistinct) . . . everyday people used to take him by their car . . .) Prabhupāda: Oi Mayapure? (At Māyāpur?) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ei Calcuttay, niye giye, sadharan lok, baroloker sathe alap korato. (No, at Calcutta, they used to take. Common people, got to know a few gentlemen.) Prabhupāda: Calcuttay kothay chilen takhon? (Where at Calcutta you used to stay then?) Lalitā Prasāda: Oi Halsibagane . . . bari korechilam bharay, collis taka bhara diye. (At Halsibagan . . . took a house with 40 rupees rent.) Prabhupāda: Konkhanta? (Which area?) Lalitā Prasāda: Halsibagan. Prabhupāda: Halsibagan, hya okhaneto amio gechi. (Halsibagan, Yes. I also used to go there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarpor sekhan theke, oi toiri holo . . . ogulo r deben na, ogulo r deben na, tahole ami r . . . (From there, that was built . . . don't give those things any more, don't give those things, then I will not be . . .) (laughs) Yadubara: Prabhupāda would you like to have a photo with Lalitā Prasāda? Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun esob amader private katha gulo . . . (Please don't keep these private talks of ours . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, na . . . osob katha amra chapbo keno. (No, no . . . we will not publish those talks.) Lalitā Prasāda: Thak na . . . (Let those be . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh apnader bhai bhai er katha, amra keno chapbo? Apnader bhai bhaier se ekta ghanista tar katha. Sekatha alada. (Those are the words between you brothers, why should we publish. Those were the talks between your brothers who were very close to each other. Those words are different.) Lalitā Prasāda: Se na, onya rakam ghanista ta . . . nijer duksha. (Not exactly, another type of closeness . . . my grief.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ye, bhai eromkam korlo na . . . . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Oh my brother you didn't do it . . .) Prabhupāda: Baro bhai ektu cote gelo, choto bhai ektu namra holo. Ei duniyar niyam. (The elder brother became a little angry and the younger brother had to be a little obliged. These are the norms of the whole world.) Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eigulo tader to kono anya katha na. O amra jani. (There's nothing more in this. That we know.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tabe ami Noa da ke tairi kore kore bolehilam sob bhabe . . . . . . (indistinct Bengali) (But I prepared Noa da (elder brother) in many ways . . .) Prabhupāda: Korechilen boleito eto baro holo. (It is because of his service he became so great.) Lalitā Prasāda: Onya bhaigulo kicchu sahayya kare na, ulte amake badha diyeche. (All the other brothers didn't help, rather they prevented me.) Prabhupāda: Orakam hoyechilo boleito, amrao sampakka hoyechilo, kichu seva korchi. (Because it so happened, we also got to have a relationship, rendering some service.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ulte aro, onya bhai bon gulo amake badha diyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . keno karis . . . keno karis? (On the contrary, all other brothers and sisters had opposed me . . . (indistinct) . . . why do you do, why . . . why you do that?) Prabhupāda: Hingsa, bhaiye bhaiye. (Envy amongst brothers.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami bollam na ami thakboi. Ami korbo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (I said, "No I will be there. I will do . . .") Prabhupāda: Huh?. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . kono jinis ami caina. (I don't want anything.) I don't require anything, Ei jonyei ami morechi (laughs), tarpor nije kato boi arambha korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . uni bandha korlen, ami nije arambha korlam (. . . for that reason I got finished (laughs), then I begun to do some books of my own . . . (indistinct) . . . he closed it down, I started my own.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . sit down here. No. Yadubara: I don't think he can move very well. Prabhupāda: No he cannot move, I can move. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Where shall I sit? Yadubara: It would be best if he could turn. I'm not sure if he can do that, and you could sit here. Prabhupāda: I will sit down here. Yadubara: Yeah, you could sit on the chair here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yadubara: And if he can turn a little, I can take the photo from there. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ar eiye apni, amake ekta subidhe dicchen, eo amar ekta bhagyer katha. (And that you are offering me a favour, that is also a good fortune for me.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Niscoi colbe. (Will surely do.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Take candid and portrait, that also. Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yadubara: Lalitā Prasāda, could you look this way? Prabhupāda: Bolche apni oi dikta ceye dekhben ektu. (They are asking you to look that way.) You should always address him Ṭhākura Mahārāja Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They don't know that's why . . . Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oder desheri cal hocche ei. Thakur dada keo nam dhore dake. (This is the norm of their country. They call their grandfathers also by name.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Very nice. Thank you very much. Lalitā Prasāda: Apnara eto kharac korben keno? . . . (indistinct) . . . keno amar jonye kharac korben? (Why have you spent so much money . . . why you spend so much?) Prabhupāda: Apnar bacbar jonye Koti taka kharac korleo, eo kichu noy. (To keep you alive, even spending millions of dollars is not sufficient.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami khub simple. Amar kicchu caina. Amar ekta duksha roibe, bhakti korle na, nam korle na. Naam koro . . . (I am a very simple person. I don't have any demand as such. My only lamentation is that I haven't got Bhakti , not chanted the Name. Chant the Name . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, era sob nam kore. (Yes, all of them chant the Name.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, hya era kore. Era onekshan dhore nam korchilo bose bose. (Yes, yes, they do. They were chanting for a long time sitting there.) Prabhupāda: Nam kore. (They chant.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . se amar mathay, mathay thakbe . . . (indistinct) . . . Kolkatar khabar niyechilem . . . (indistinct) . . . ei Ananda bajare, ei bar. (He is in my head, let Him remain in my head . . . (indistinct) . . . have enquired about Calcutta, this time, in Anada bajar.) Prabhupāda: Sakali bolche, Kolkatate Kirtan hoate Naxalies. (Everyone is saying that because of Kirtan performances at Calcutta, Naxalites) (break) . . . komeche . . . (go to reduce . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes) Prabhupāda: Naxalite amader sange neceche. (Naxalites even danced with us.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ke? (Who?) Prabhupāda: Naxalite. Oiye naxalite sob marche lok ke. (Naxalite. Those naxalites who are killing people.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ora nakshal. (They are all nakshal .) Prabhupāda: Hya, nakshal. (Yes nakshal .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, naxalites. (Yes naxalites.) Prabhupāda: Tara amader sange neceche, prasad peyechilo. (They have danced with us, took prasadam.) Lalitā Prasāda: Badmais, badmais sob. (Criminals, all criminals.) Prabhupāda: Sob badmais . . . (All criminals . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhalo hoye geche. (They become gentleman.) Prabhupāda: Bhalo hoye geche. (Become gentleman.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni khub upakar korlen desher. (You have done a great service to the country.) Prabhupāda: Sakali bolche Kirtan holo bolei theme geche. Sakale bolche. (Everyone is saying that because of the performance of kirtana this has stopped. Everyone is saying.) Lalitā Prasāda: Plague. Prabhupāda: Hya, plague er samay. Takhan ami . . . (Yes, during the time of the plague. Then I was . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Ami ek bachor . . . amar mone ache, ami takhan choto, ami necechi oi Nam Kirtane. (I was then one year old . . . I remember, although I was a kid then, I danced in the Nam kirtana .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ora elo . . . (indistinct) . . . babake bollum, ye baba ora eyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . ami yabo na. (whispers) Woodburn ke bolle tumi egulo karo. Yei galpo guli janento . . . (they came . . . (indistinct) . . . informed father that they have come . . . (indistinct) . . . I will not go. (whispers) and went to tell Woodburn that you do all these things. Are you aware of those incidents . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm, ke . . . (who . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Woodburn . . . mane Governor, Woodburn. (Woodburn . . . means Governor, Woodburn.) Prabhupāda: Accha, Woodburn. (Oh, Woodburn.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Woodburn ke balo giye, tumi yodi plague tarate cao, Hari*-nam na korle yabe na, Hari-nam ano byas . . . (Went and told Woodburn that if you wish to eradicate plague, Hari-nama must be performed, elst it won't go. Perform Hari-nama that's it . . .) Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: The car is ready or not? We shall have to go. Gurudāsa: I think Śyāmasundara is just finishing fixing. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oita khub colche. (That one is running well.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . bangalir mato temon kapor porbe, ekhon kapor porbar emon . . . (they will wear a sari like a Bengali, now they will wear a sari like . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, Meyera sari porche. (Yes, Ladies are wearing saris.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, tai to bolchi . . . (indistinct Bengali) (That's what I am saying . . .) Gurudāsa: Śyāmasundara prabhu. Yadubara: Śyāmasundara how long will it be? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (whisper) segulo sob dekhabo apnake . . . (indistinct) . . . oikhanei ache . . . (indistinct) . . . apnake kichu korte hobe na . . . (indistinct) . . . yodi car piece chay pich o rakhen, ta segulo amar theke yabe buro bayose. Oi gulo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . will show those all to you . . . (indistinct) . . . all are there . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't have to do anything . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you use 4 to 6 pieces, the things will remain, in this old age. Those . . .) *Prabhupāda: Apni ar baire*-taire yan na naki. (Seems that you don't go for outside work any more.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami uthte pari na, ami ekhan theke okhane uthte parina . . . (indistinct) . . . hamaguri diye yete hoy . . . (indistinct Bengali) (I can't get up even, I can't move here to there . . . (indistinct) . . . I am to crawl if I need to move . . .) Yadubara: He says five more minutes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Western . . . press. Yadubara: Na, na. (No, no.) (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Take one or two . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu thanda jal diye aso. (Please bring a little more cold water.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, Oh Hari. (Yes, Oh Hari.) Hari: Eito. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ene dao . . . jal dao . . . amar Hari achena sob pare . . . (Please bring . . . give water . . . my Hari can do everything . . .) (laughs) Prabhupāda: Amar . . . (My . . .) (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Apnar maa, meyeti khub . . . (Your, the mother and daughter are very . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Khub . . . (Very . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki holo re, jal dili ne? (What happened, you haven't given water?) Hari: Hm, dicchi. (Yes, giving.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao, thanda. Sabceye thanda jal niye aso, ene dao . . . mukhdiye khan, mukh diye khan . . . oder alada rakhbe, kicchu hobe na . . . apni or maa ke ektu jal dilen na, more jay yodi. Ektu jal deben na. onek upakar pabe . . . (indistinct) . . . thik katha. (Give, cold. Bring cold water, give here . . . you can touch your lips and drink, touch your lips and drink . . . they have separate water glass, there won't be any problem . . . will you give some water with your hand to his mother, she may die soon. Can't you give little water, she will be greatly benefitted . . . (indistinct) . . . that's correct.) Prabhupāda: Amar kache. (To me.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . banglar meye. (Bengal's daughter.) *Prabhupāda: Amar kache onek sob meye asche. Aj kal to meyeder sob biye hoy na. Ami mone korchi oke head kore tader ke sob siksha debo jonye ekhane anbo. (Many ladies are coming to me. Now*-a-days women don't get married. I am thinking that I will bring those ladies here for training and will make her as head of them.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . den, den pathiye den (. . . you can send.) Prabhupāda: Kimba ekhane yodi bari kori . . . (Or, if we can make a building here . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eto bhaloi hoy, ekhane thakbe. Takhan gaan bajna colbe . . . ananda hobe, Hari nama colbe . . . (indistinct Bengali) (It will be good, they can stay. Bhajan Kirtan will happen . . . all will be happy, Hari nama will be also chanted . . .) Prabhupāda: Ekta bari kore, oke head kore rekhe debo. (Will make a building and will keep her as head.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob katha sunbe . . . (indistinct) . . . beche thakle hoy, bayos holo besh. (She will abide by your words . . . (indistinct) . . . hope she will be alive, she has become old.) Prabhupāda: Beshi bayos to noy. (Not that old.) *Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) Bayes bahanna*-tippanna. (Age 52 to 53.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Lalitā Prasāda: Bayos hoyeche, rakhbar bayos nei ar, tabe nijer . . .(indistinct) . . . ciro yaouban to, oi jonya cehara ta . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (She has become old, she is no longer young . . .) (indistinct) . . . yakhan maa eschilen . . . (indistinct) (. . . then when mother came . . .) (laughs) Prabhupāda: Ta apnar bhai der madhye dujoni brahmacari ar na aro sob? (So amongst your brother's two are brahmacari or others as well?) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob na . . . (indistinct) . . . sej dar duti chele, bor dar . . . (Not all . . . (indistinct) . . . but one of my elder brother's two sons, and eldest brother's . . .) Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja and Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura both are from the very beginning strict brahmacārīs . Gurudāsa: Ohh. Śyāmasundara: (outside) Try it now. Lalitā Prasāda: From the age of six I was disgusted with meeting females. Gurudāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: That, that means from the past life you were a . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, past life chilem. Apnake bolchi bolben na) . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes, In a past life I was. Don't tell that one . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) . . . (indistinct) . . . cheleke niye asbi, niye elo . . . dam diye kine niye elo . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . bollo, amar gharta khule de . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . you bring your son, so he was brought . . . purchased with a price . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . told to open my room . . .) Prabhupāda: Kata diner janya . . . (For how many days . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Chay bachchar pare, chay bachchar. (Six years, after six years.) Prabhupāda: Chay bachchar. (Six years.) *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ye din gelen, sedin niye gelen . . . tei*-se March . . . (the day he went on that day only he took away . . . 23rd March . . .) Prabhupāda: Sei ghar tay apni cabi diye rekhechen. (That room you have kept locked.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sei ghare, cabi diye, ami yai ni . . . amar ek bhaipo ke diyechilum. Sei bhaipo ghar tay puja kore, amader bother korar kichu nei, kintu majhe majhe sei ghure . . . (indistinct) . . . ekdin bodh hoy giyechilo . . . dekhe ese . . . (indistinct) . . . ar se baro ghar . . . sekhane pancas jan lok easily boste parbe. (That room, after locking, I haven't gone . . . had given the keys to one of my nephews. He used that room for puja room, never bothered to intimate us. . . . (indistinct) . . . most probably they went there one day to see . . . (indistinct) . . . it's a big room . . . about 50 people can sit easily.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Lalitā Prasāda: Chabbis feet lamba, ar egaro feet caora. (26 feet long and 11 feet wide.) Prabhupāda: Khub baro ghar. (Very big room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei gharta maa diye gelo, uni yaoar pore . . . (indistinct) . . . kono din bhara cai ni . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Mother gave that room, after her passing . . . (indistinct) . . . we never asked for rent . . .) Prabhupāda: Ar or ghar to ekta ache. (And he has another room for him.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Prabhupāda: Apnar dadar, tar oto ekta ghar ache. (Your elder brother, he also has a room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tar choto ghar chilo, ektalay, sei ghare . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (He had a small room, on the first floor, in that room . . .) Prabhupāda: Besh korecho. (You have done good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sei onek yukti kore korechi . . . (indistinct) . . . ki korbo. Ei Mayapure . . . (indistinct) . . . map diye matir thakur yara duti ache ar duti kather thakur ache. Oi Bishnu Prya ar Lakshmi Prya. Lakshmi Prya matir thakur. Ar ekti . . . (indistinct) . . . ar Bishnu Prya kather. Lakshmi Prya . . . (indistinct) . . . matir. Erpor British ra eschilo . . . (indistinct) . . . Roy Bahadur . . . district engineer . . . (indistinct) . . . Sarkar. Yar bhai Kishori Sarkar chilo na. Se iyer jamai . . . Sirish Babu . . . (indistinct) . . .Sirish Babuder bhagni pati . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Did it after a lot of thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . what else can I do . . . (indistinct) . . . in Māyāpur . . . two Deities made of clay and two of wood. Bishnu Priya and Lakshmi Priya. Lakshmi Priya is made of clay. Another one . . . (indistinct) . . . and Bishnu Priya is of wood. Lakshmi Priya . . . is of clay. Britishers came once . . . Roy Bahadur . . . district engineer . . . Sarkar. Whose brother was Kishori Sarkar. He was the brother in law of Sirish Babu . . . the brother in law of Sirish Babu's family . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . se ar oi dujone, Mayapur amra . . . (indistinct) . . .chotobela amra sakole . . . (indistinct) . . . ta Sirish Babu ke yakhani kolakatay. . . . amar kono bhaike yodi guardian kore dile ami doure . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . he and other two, we together in Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . we were in our childhood then . . . (indistinct) . . . Sirish Babu, whenever he used to visit Calcutta . . . as a guardian for my brother's I used to rush . . .) Prabhupāda: Finished? Śyāmasundara: No. I need one small piece of wire. I wondered . . . Prabhupāda: Accha ektu tar ache? (Do you have a small piece of wire?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki tar? (What type of wire?) Bengali Devotee: Loha? (Iron wire?) Prabhupāda: Ye kono tar. (Any type of wire.) Śyāmasundara: Electric wire about this long. Lalitā Prasāda: (Bengali conversations with Prabhupāda and others) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? Ki? Ki? (What? What? What?) Bengali Devotee: Na, electric tar. (No, electric wire.) Lalitā Prasāda: Electric caire? (Asking for electric wire.) Bengali Devotee: Din. (Give this.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei dao. (Give, give it here.) Prabhupāda: Dao, dao. (Give, give.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao. Kete dao na okhan theke. (Give. Just cut it from here.) Bengali Devotee: Eito amar ghare ache. (I have in my room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao. Kete dao. Na hole darkar . . . (indistinct) . . . kete dao. Ek colour. Ami sob rakhi, (Give. Cut it and give. If required . . . (indistinct) . . . cut it and give. Single color. I keep almost everything,) I keep everything. . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Apnar abhab ki. (You have no scarcity.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami . . . sob, every . . . kon dike janina balun. (I . . . all, every . . . tell me something of which I don't have any idea about.) Śyāmasundara: (laughs) He's got everything. Lalitā Prasāda: Oi tare hobe? (Will that wire do?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes of course). Lalitā Prasāda: Yadi mota tar darkar hoy tao pabe. (If some thick wire is needed that too can be arranged.) Bengali Devotee: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: Amar, amar ei buro bayose . . . (My, in my old age . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha, duto rasta ache ki? Ekta rasta ei rasta ta to bhal na. Ei kaca rasta ta. (Are there two routes? In one route the roads are not good. It is unconstructed clay road.) Bengali Devotee: Konta? (Which one?) Prabhupāda: Amra eschilam ei kaca rasta diye. Ar kono rasta ache? Ekjan bollo ye, odik diye paka rasta. (We came by that unconstructed road. Is there any other route? Someone said that there is one asphalt road on that side.) Bengali Devotee: Se anek ghur hobe. (It will be a longer route.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, shunun. Ekhen theke Phule. (No, listen please. From here to Phule.) Prabhupāda: Phulia hya, Phule. (Phulia yes, Phule.) Lalitā Prasāda: Paka rasta. (Asphalt road.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekbare mise yabe. (Directly it will merge.) Prabhupāda: Seiti to bhalo hoy. (That will be better.) Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, apni eidike . . . (indistinct) . . . bridge paben. (Well, from here you will get . . . (indistinct) . . . bridge.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Ta apnar adh ganta beshi lagbe. Mile dash . . . bridge diye kuri minute lagbe. (That will take more than half an hour. After ten miles . . . by the bridge it will take 20 minutes.) Prabhupāda: Mile dasher. (About ten miles.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ta hok. Kintu paka rasta diye yabo. (Let it be but we will go by the asphalt road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Paka rasta diye yabe . . . apnake bolchi . . . oi libraryr pas diye beriye, oikhane giye, saman cole yabe, oi gate ta. (Go by asphalt road . . . I will tell you . . . go out beside the library, from there straight away it goes, that gate.) Prabhupāda: (to Bengali devotee) Tumi ektu baba ektu egiye debe . . . (You please physically guide us a little . . .) . Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, tui noy ektu egiye diye ay . . . (Well, you please go with them a little distance.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ektu egiye diye eso. (Yes, please come with us a little.) Lalitā Prasāda: Gate paryanta egiye diye ay. (Go with them up to the gate.) Bengali Devotee: Thik ache. (Okay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Gate par hoye gele, gari par hote dekhle . . . ebar gari par hole, tui bari cole asbi. Ar ese amake khabar dibi 'ora cole gelo', Hari re. Accha, oi korbe. Ei rasta diye yabe. (After crossing the gate, if you see a car has crossed . . . after the car has crossed, then you return. And after returning, give me news that, "They have gone." Hari, did you understand? Okay, he will do so. They will go by this route.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ami bolechi, Phulia diye. (Yes, I have said, via Phulia.) Lalitā Prasāda: Phulia yan, Phuliar ye gate ta ache . . . (Go to Phulia, the gate is there at Phulia . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . Shantipur. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, Shantipur diye . . . (indistinct) . . . ek bare Calcutta. (No, not from Shantipur . . . (indistinct) . . . straight to Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Na, Kolkata to yabo na. (We will not go to Calcutta.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kothay? (Where?) Prabhupāda: Amra ekhon Mayapure yabo. (We will go to Māyāpur now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Phulia diye ghure yaben. (Oh, you will go via Phulia then.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Phulia diye Shantipur diye. (Yes. Via Phulia and Shantipur.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khub bhalo hobe . . . (indistinct) . . . apni to egiye yaben. (It will be very good . . . (indistinct) . . . you are going ahead.) Prabhupāda: Hya, sei to. (Yes, that's what.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apnara keno ei rasta diye eschen . . . (Why have you come through this road . . .) Prabhupāda: Janina. (Not aware.) Lalitā Prasāda: Three miles kom ache. (You would have traveled three miles less.) Three, could have saved three miles, by coming direct from the Phulia. Paka road . . . pakka road (. . . Asphalt road . . .) Prabhupāda: Se to janena. (That they don't know.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tumi rasta ta ektu dekhiye dao Phulia diye. (You please show us up to the road, through Phulia.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Here is Phulia, here is Shantipur, here is Kṛṣṇa*-nagar . . . (indistinct) You have come here. Prabhupāda: Here, here. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: There you took turn and you come here . . . (indistinct) . . . you are come two, two, two or three mile saved, you could have easily saved. Prabhupāda: And road is also nice. 10 miles. Prabhupāda: And road also nice. Lalitā Prasāda: Road is nice. Lalitā Prasāda: Kacca road, ekhono pakka hoy ni. Amader, amader . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . unconstructed road, asphalting not yet done. Our, our . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekhono . . . (indistinct) . . . (Until now . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: Rasta ar kare ni. (Asphalting not done.) Lalitā Prasāda: Rasta r hoyni . . . ei Nineteen thirty sevene . . . yakhan iye eschilo . . . Anderson . . . takhan se bollo ami paka korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . ajo paka holo na, ei to Baruipur road . . . (indistinct) . . . ei road. (Have not laid asphalt . . . in 1937 . . . when he came . . . Anderson . . . he told me that I will construct the asphalt road . . . but until date it is not done, this Baruipur road . . . . (indistinct) . . . this road.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Yak, apni . . . tahole apni Nabadwipi yaben. (Whatever, you are here . . . that means you go up to Nabadwip only.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Yes, along with. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, tahole . . . (indistinct) . . . Ganga nadite . . . (indistinct) (Oh, then . . . (indistinct) . . . Ganges . . .) Prabhupāda: Ajke yabo na, kal yabo. (I will not go today, tomorrow I will.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya . . . (Yes . . .) (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Eder ghuriye niye ya to (You please go with them) . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Tahole to ektu dur hoye yay. (Then it will be quite far.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Phulia hoye aschilen. (You came via Phulia.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Phulia hoyei asa uchit, yanta na. (Yes, you had to come via Phulia, I did not know . . .) Bengali Devotee: Ekebare metalic . . . (Then metallic . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Phulia, Phulia . . . Phulia gate. Oi gate . . . (indistinct) . . . sei gater oikhane dhuke porlo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar apni ekhan diye yaben. (That gate . . . (indistinct) . . . enter near that gate . . . (indistinct) . . . and you go from here. Prabhupāda: Oh . . . jana nei to . . . (Oh . . . were not known . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni, apni Mayapur yaben? (You, will you go to Māyāpur?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: 1 hour lagbe. 15 miles. Katakshan, car minute, 1 hour. Ek ghantay pauche yaben. Apni namchilen kothay? (It will take about 1 hour. 15 miles. How long, 4 minutes, 1 hour. You will reach by 1 hour. Where will you stay?) Prabhupāda: Amra jayga kinechi. (We have purchased land.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon jayga? (Which place?) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . (That . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Na, na, na. (No, no, no.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole? (Then?) Prabhupāda: Amader Chaitanya . . . Yog pith ache na. (Our Caitanya . . . Yogapitha is there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Okhan theke der mile. (1.5 miles from there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Mane, amader Math er aspase. (Then, adjacent to our Matha.) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . between. Madhav Maharajer ar amader Yogpith . . . (That . . . between. Madhav Mahārāja's and our Yogapitha . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Madhav Maharajer . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Madav Mahārāja's . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, ato dure yete hoy na. Thik Yogpither khanik ta pore. (No, not that far. Just at a little distance from Yogapitha.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ei side . . . (this side . . .) Prabhupāda: Ei side. Ei side Madhav Maharajer parei amra . . . On this side. Madhav Mahārāja's Gaudiya Math is on this side. Lalitā Prasāda: Madhav Maharajer oi jayga diye par hon, oi khan diye par hon. (You cross over from Madhav Mahārāja's place, do you cross over from there?) Prabhupāda: Par hoi amra to edik diye yai. (We cross over from this side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon dik diye? (From which side?) Bengali Devotee: Bagulia hoye. (Via Bagulia.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bagulia hoye yan? Bridge er opor diye? (You go via Bagulia? Above the bridge?) Bengali Devotee: Na. (No.) direct. Prabhupāda: Direct. Lalitā Prasāda: Bridge? (Over the bridge?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole . . . (indistinct) . . . na. (Then not via . . . (indistinct) . . . no.) Prabhupāda: Na, na. (No, no.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh. Tahole to . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Then you go . . .) Prabhupāda: Par hote gele to . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (If you want to cross over then . . .) Bengali Devotee: Hya . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Yes . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh. Tai janye . . . (indistinct) . . . Mayapure. (Oh. That's why . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāpur.) *Bengali Devotee: Mayapur bod hoy tin*-car mile. (Māyāpur is probably 3 to 4 miles.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Car mile. Pakka. Ami hete gechi kato bar. Oi sandhya kaler dike yete hobe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes. 4 miles. Confirm. So many times I have gone by walking. You have to go in the evening if you go by walking . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Jagannath mandir ache. (Jagannatha temple is there.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ekhon ki hoyeche janina. Aj tin bachor yai ni ar dekhini . . . (don't know what the situation is now. I have not gone for three years, I have not seen.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) . . . Kanju ya byabhar kare (the way Kanju behaves) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Na hajam hobe na kintu. Niyeche hajam hobe na. Hajam hocche na. Sob thak kore felche. Sob nasta korche. (Taken but won't be able to digest. They have taken but will not be able to maintain. Digestion is not happening. They are making everything faulty. Destroying everything.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Maha visaya buddhi. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . sunechen to? (. . . have you heard that?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Bhaiyer sathe anyay, janen to? . . . (indistinct) . . . bhai ta. (He cheated on his brother, do you know about this? . . . (indistinct) . . . that brother.) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Badmais, janen na. (Don't you know his mischief?) . . . (indistinct) . . . or ye bou ta chilo . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (he had a wife . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . bou take nasta korlo (spoiled the wife) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya. Sunchi. (Yes. I heard.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarpore, o abar . . . (indistinct) . . . meye ke biye kore niye esche . . . (indistinct) . . . biye kori . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . chele barrister . . . (Then he again married . . . (indistinct) . . . daughter and come . . . (indistinct) . . . let me marry you . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). . . . (indistinct) . . . the son is barrister . . .) Prabhupāda: Osob matlab kore barrister, ukil koreche, eisob hat korbar janya. (They have made them barrister, lawyer with a gameplan to capture all of them in their control.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kato taka eikhan theke curi koreche, thakurer gayna curi kore, Mayapurer theke . . . (indistinct) . . . janen apni. . . . (indistinct) . . . Gaudiya Math . . . curi koreche. Kichu gayna bouer kache chilo, ache ekhon. Ar dui laksha taka aro curi kore jami bari korechilo . . . (indistinct) . . .ukil ra case korechilo. (Stole lots of money, the ornament of the Deities, from Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . do you know? . . . (indistinct) . . . Gaudiya Math . . . stole from there. Ornaments were with the wife, it is still there. He stole two lakhs more and made some land and properties . . . (indistinct) . . . lawyers have filed a case.) Prabhupāda: So let us go. Tahole amra uthi. (We are leaving now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Se ar bole ki korbo, osob baje katha to (What is the benefit of saying, those are all dirty words . . .). . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Or gun sob jani ami . . . (I know all his qualities quite well . . .) so. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, gharer katha sobi ami jani. (I know all the stories of our family.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami boli na. Apnake bolte pari, onya ke na. Era bojhen na bole bollam egulo. Na hole boltum na. (I won't reveal it. I can tell you only, not to others. Because these people (foreign devotees) will not be able to understand, that's why I could tell you. Otherwise I would not have told.) (laughs) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei, maa . . . maa ke balo era cole yabe. Ar maa ke khabar dao. (Hey, tell your mother they are going to leave. Inform your mother.) Bengali Devotee: Dicchi. (Okay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, maa ke balo. (Yes, tell mother once.) Prabhupāda: Where is Bhavānanda? Yadubara: He is sleeping. Lalitā Prasāda: Apni . . . (You . . .) Yadubara: I think he is a little bit sick. Lalitā Prasāda: Ami maa ke bolechi, yakhani era asbe, khub yanta korbe. O sob nijei kare. Ar amar katha sune, aro . . . (I have told my mother that whenever these people will come, she should take good care of you all. She does everything. Now after hearing me, she will do more . . .) Bengali Devotee: Onara berobe. (They will leave.) Lalitā Prasāda: Thik ache . . . khabar holo ajke? (Alright . . . was the food proper today?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Khabar, kheye tustu holo? (The food, are you satisfied after eating?) Bengali Devotee: Khub kheyechi. (We have taken too much.) Prabhupāda: Hya, khub kheyechi, khub bhalo. (Yes taken too much, very good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhagavaner payes to korte bollum, ke khabe na, tai payes korechi. (I was told to prepare sweet rice for the Lord, if anyone would like it. So the sweet rice was made.) Prabhupāda: Sob jinis eto sundar hoyeche. (Each and every item was very nice.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo Govinda bhoga cal. (Those were Govinda bhog rice.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo Govinda bhoga cal. (They were Govinda bhoga rice.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Govinda bhoga cal. (Yes, Govinda bhoga rice.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oigulo Murshidabad theke aniyechi. (I brought it from Murshidabad.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Murshidabad theke aniyechi (I have brought it from Murshidabad . . .). . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Murshidabad. Lalitā Prasāda: Sekhan theke aniyechi. (I have brought from there.) Prabhupāda: Murshidabad. (break) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . eke bollam, onek . . . (I told him, many) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . na purana lok to . . . (an old fellow here.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun babar ya hater lekha, khamer pase lukono chilo . . . (indistinct) . . . asche. (See, the handwriting of my father was hidden in an envelope . . . (indistinct) . . . came here.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . sei katha guloi amar asche (saying the same thing) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhechi ami. (I have seen.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Dekhun bhagavaner iccha sob, hobe ekdin . . . (Just see, everything is the will of the Lord, everything will happen on that day) . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Apnake ar ekta katha bolbo? (Should I tell you something?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (continue whispering) . . . (indistinct) . . . ami Kesta ke cai ne, Radha ke cai ne . . . ami cai Radha Krsner jiboner miloner ye lila ta . . . (I don't want Kṛṣṇa, nor do I want Radha . . . I want that the pastime of Radha Kṛṣṇa's meeting . . . this pastime . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . darkar. (. . . that is required.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Radharani . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Yakhani (Whenever) (whispers) . . . (indistinct) . . . amar anurodh (. . . my request.) Prabhupāda: Achha . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) . . . ami yat dur chance peyechi . . . (in so far that I got a chance . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dui jayga yabe . . . (will go in two places.) Bengali Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Han. (Yes.) . . . (indistinct) (break) (end) Conversation with Lalita Prasad -- March 2, 1972, Birnagar Lalitā Prasāda: Accha. (Well) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ekbare ghure asi, eibar sob thik thak hobe. (Everything will be alright once I return from this trip.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . ami ki raibo . . . (can I be rest assured?) Prabhupāda: Hya, Hya niscintye. (Yes, yes surely.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . Amar boi dekhabo, hater lekha . . . ami dekhiye debo apnake (Will show you my book, written by hand . . . I will show you . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Kothay? Maa kothay? (Where's your mother?) Boy: Maa prasad pacchen. (She's taking prasada .) Prabhupāda: Prasad pacche. (Taking prasada ?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . ta, apni khub khusi hoben? (. . . so, you will be happy?) Prabhupāda: Khub. (A lot.) So, Bhavānanda is sleeping in the car? Śyāmasundara: Yes he is feeling sick. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Erakam, erakam onek . . . onek . . . (indistinct) . . . ache. (Like this, like this, there are many . . . many . . . (indistinct) . . . have.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ta to thakbe. (Yes, that'll be there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Seiguno apni . . . ami yodi koredi, egulo tobe to purna brahman hobe. Pratijaner mangal hobe . . . bokar moto bole debo . . . (These things you . . . if I do that, then one will get full Brahman. Everyone will be blessed . . . I will say like a fool . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Boy: Dadu, apnar bichnar cadar din to . . . (Grandfather, give your bedcover . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? (What?) Boy: Bed coverta den, dekhiye dite hobe . . . (Please give me your bedcover, it has to be shown . . .) 1:49 - 1:55 (audio repeats) Boy: Dadu , Your bed cover . . . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . oh, I see . . . what? *Boy: Show me which bed*-cover . . . *Boy: Please give me your bed*-cover, it have to be shown . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, accha. (Oh yes, oh yes . . .) (indistinct) (indistinct background talk) (audio disruption) Gurudas: . . . the United States. In 1938 cause Bhaktivinod Ṭhākura had said that he shouldn't go. He said I tried to disobey him. (indistinct Bengali conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . Amra ekhon yacchi. (We are leaving now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni yaben kibhabe . . . (How can you go now . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Eikhanete . . . amar kache sob . . . onek sob meyera asche . . . (indistinct) . . . bari kinbo ar apni sob dekhasuna korben. (Over here there was . . . many girls come and join my movement . . . (indistinct) . . . will buy a house and you will look after all these.) (conversation in the background) (break) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . kirtan . . . bari korle . . . (kirtana . . . built a house . . .) Śyāmasundara: You just got started on this? Jayapataka: (indistinct) . . . started already Lady: Amader baro baro shiksha . . . (We had big big teaching sessions . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Tumi ya shikhecho sob . . . (Whatever you've learned, everything . . .) Śyāmasundara: Let's just finish. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinod Thakura sikshaoto eki. (Teachings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura are also the same . . .) Lady: Tai, sei sob . . . (Yes, all that . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekta katha ache . . . (I have one thing to say . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Na bolleto hoy na . . . (It's not possible not to say it . . .) Prabhupāda: What? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct whispers) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . natun shiksha, alocana korbo (. . . new teachings, we will discuss later.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pore korbo . . . accha, tahole ami collum. (We'll discuss later . . . all right, I'll take leave . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Ami dekhabo . . . boi gulo thik ache? (I will show you ok?) Lady: Accha, dandavat. (All right, dandavat .) Prabhupāda: Dandavat . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dui din dhore ekhane thakben na? (Are you not going to stay here for two days?) Prabhupāda: Eibar ese thakbo. (Next time when I will come, I will stay.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . apni nije . . . eka. Dui din . . . (. . . all by yourself . . . alone for two days . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lady: Bolchi, guru paramparar katha . . . bujhte parchen? (Regarding guru parampara . . . are you getting?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady: Oi bhaktara guru paramparar kathar bisaye sei bolche . . . (A devotee mentioned about guru parampara . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (devotees talking) Prabhupāda: Hya . . . (Yes . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . Lady: Ki ki abasta sei hoyeche, seigulo bolche, sob janen ei gulo bolche . . . (He's narrating our plight and the situation . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (break) (indistinct talking) Prabhupāda: Sob thik thak kora yabe na? (We can settle everything?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Seto amar yete hobe. Ar Bombay yodi asen tahole to khub bhalo hoy. Bombay aste parbena? Take ami kharca debo sob. (Oh. Then I have to leave. If he can come to Bombay, then that will be good. Can't he come to Bombay? I can take care of the expenses.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . na, na, tara onek kharca diye geche. (. . . no no, they have given sufficient money for expenses.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . asharamer lokera bahu kharca diye niye geche. (People from ashram. Given enough for expenses.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (All right.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ar telegram karo Hrshikesh prabhuke . . . (and sent a telegram to Hrshikesh prabhu . . .) Prabhupāda: Tar sange na dekha hole ki kore kaj hobe? (Unless I meet him, how will the work get done?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hobe kaj (It will get done . . .) (indistinct Bengali) . . . Prabhupāda: Hya. Apni thakte . . . (Yes. While you are here . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tahole take telegram kore anao na. (Why don't you send a telegram and get him to come here.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Boy: Eito or chuti furiye geche. (His leave is over.) Prabhupāda: Huh. Boy: Asbe. (That he will come . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Seto America, asbe kar theke . . . chuti . . . (He has a job . . . his leave is . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ami Kolkata te . . . khub jor aat tarikh abdi thakbo. Sei lok se er bhetare asbe? (I will be in Calcutta . . . maximum till the 8th. Will he be able to come by then?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Boy: Oi maser aat tarikh? (The 8th of next month?) Prabhupāda: Na, ei maser. (No, this month.) Boy: Oh. Hya, hya er modhye. (Oh. Yes, yes, within this . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ei maser mane . . . aj, March maser dosra to . . . (This month means . . . today, is the 2nd of March . . .) Boy: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . accha, se yai koruk, ami to royechi ar Maharaj . . . bhayer ki ache? Ya hoy, kono cinta korbe na. Se ya bolbo tai korte hobe take. (All right, whatever he does, I am here and Mahārāja . . . what's to fear? Whatever will be, no need to worry. Whatever I will say, that he has to abide.) Prabhupāda: Accha . . . (All right . . .) (indistinct) Lady: . . . eikhane ei . . . ei . . . Uttam Thakurer mandir dekhechen? (Did you see the temple here built by Uttam Thakura?) Lalitā Prasāda: Uni bolchen sono . . . (indistinct) . . . uni bolchen ye, dakshin ko . . . (indistinct) . . . purba kore . . . (indistinct) . . . pechane hoye yabe. (Listen to what he's saying . . . (indistinct) . . . he's saying that the south . . . (indistinct) . . . east sided . . . (indistinct) . . . that will be back side.) Lady: Pub mukho mandirer mukh to . . . ta amader choto mandiroto purba mukha mandir royeche. (The temple is facing east . . . and our small temple is also east facing.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oito . . . (indistinct) . . . pase thaklei bhalo hoy . . . (That . . . (indistinct) . . . better if it stays beside . . .) Prabhupāda: Pase thaklei bhalo hoy . . . (Better if it stays beside . . .) Lady: Tahole uttar mukha hobe? (Then that will be north facing?) Prabhupāda: Uttar mukha uni bolchen hoy na. (He's saying that it must not face north. That's not the standard.) Lady: Uttar mukha konodin bari dite pare na . . . (A house is never should be north facing . . .) Prabhupāda: Dakshin mukha hoy ar purba mukha hoy. (It must either face south or east.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole, oi jami jaygay, ami boli kon jaygay mandirer kono portion ber kore . . . (indistict) . . . choto . . . (indistinct) . . . apnara baro kore mandir korben. (Then the land, I am saying that some portion, in the temple some portion have to be demarcated . . . (indistinct) . . . the small one . . . (indistinct) . . . all of you will build a big temple.) Prabhupāda: Na, na, ota baro mandire dhukiye dite hobe. (No, that has to be placed within the big temple.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Hya, sei. (Yes, That's right.) Prabhupāda: Baro mandir yeta hobe. Bhaktivinod Thakur . . . (The big temple. That will be made. Is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei paryanta kete, aro ucu kore . . . (By cutting this portion, by raising it more higher . . .) Lady: (indistinct) . . . ami bolchi ye, Prabhuke taratari sange kore ene mapa mapi thik kore, sthan thik kore rakhen . . . (I'm saying that let Prabhu quickly decide and demarcate the land . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dekhun, ami . . ami . . . (Look, I am . . . I'm . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pukurta khub bhalo kore pariskar kore . . . (The pond also has to be cleansed properly . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Na . . . (indistinct) . . . korito . . . (No . . . (indistinct) . . . all were done . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . badh tairi kore nice abdi korechi, nongra hoye gele ami ki korbo? (. . . by making a dam, I have cleaned up to the bottom, if it gets dirty, what can I do?) Prabhupāda: Oh, na . . . lokjon nai . . . lokjon to pahara . . . (Oh, that . . . there are no people . . . people need for guard . . .) Lady: Lokjoner abhab . . . pariskar . . . (There's a dearth of help . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Pahara . . . hoye yabe . . . (Guard . . . will happen . . .) Prabhupāda: Oita ekta bhalo park er moton kora hobe. (That will be made into a good park.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, kora yabe. Ar bolchi ye, khanik pore, amader eiye, ei jamir koler oi dikta. Decorate korun na bhalo kore. (Yes, that can be done. And what I'm saying is that after sometime, After this part of the land, on that side. Why don't you decorate it nicely.) Prabhupāda: Sob, bhalo bagan, age park ar or bhitare mandir. (All these. A good garden, a park and the temple within these.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ar baki gulo cas*-bas hok na. (And let there be farming in the rest of the land.) Lady: Prabhu, pratham ye paisa pathiyechilen, tar jonyeto golap bagan korechilen . . . (Prabhu, when he first got money, he made a rose garden with that . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . panera hajar taka diye . . . (with fifteen thousand rupees . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . cole gelo, ar sob mali, barojan mali theke phul bagane jal dito, se sob mali paliye gelo. Ar to eisob drabya, mulya hoye gelo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar se paisar abhab hoye gelo . . . (they left, and the gardeners Twelve gardeners. who were watering the flowers garden, ran away. And then everything became very expensive . . . (indistinct) . . . and there was a shortage of money . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . lokjan ra nao, nijera korte hoy. (not with outside people, it has to be done on our own.) Lady: Ar se malir abhabi pradhan. Ekhonto ekti jayga chilo, tao . . . (The main problem is a lack of a gardener. Earlier there was some space, that too . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Era yodi nijera keu, keu kaj karta, ati sundar gach tairi hoy tobe . . . (If they can do it by themselves then a beautiful plantation can be made but . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mali tali . . . kiram maine ney era? Malira? (How much salary do the gardeners take over here?) *Lady: Tin taka car ana daily nebe, eram abasta. Ekjan nebe ar . . . (Three rupees and twenty*-five paisa daily, this is the situation. One person will take and . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Bhalo mali cai? Sattor taka, nabbai taka khaoa para diye. Erakam cay . . . (It works out for a good gardener to seventy rupees, ninety rupees per month with food. They demand like this . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Jayapataka: Baro mali esche. (Renowned gardeners are there.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapataka: Kolkatar mali. (Gardeners from Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: The labour charge is three to four rupees every day. Lady: Eta sara phul bagan chilo. Foreigner sob golap, ki sundar sob phul, samasta . . . (All these here were flower gardens. Beautiful roses of foreign, also other beautiful flowers, all . . .) Prabhupāda: Take ektu bolbe ye, "tomar ye dena ache diye dicche tumi aso". (Tell him that, "all your debt will be paid off, you come back".) Acyutānanda: To pay off that gardeners debt. Prabhupāda: Well I have already promised him to pay all his debts but he, he said yes but he did not come. I am prepared to pay whatever his debt. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . (indistinct) . . . bujhte parcho? (Do you understand?) Prabhupāda: Yodi tini amar gaye, amar sangei thakto, taholei to katha . . . (If he stays in my village with me, then I can talk . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . maai karabe. Maai karabe age . . . ei maa ke . . . maa kane yabe? Harinamo colbe abar edikeo (Mother will arrange to make it. Mother will arrange . . . mother . . . where mother will go? Harinama will also continue and on the other side . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oiye society ta register korechilen to? (Did you register the society?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya . . (Yes . . .) (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Kagajta ache to? (Are the papers there?) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . originalta nei, ar ki cai? Debo . . . (except the original, do you need anything else? Will give . . .) (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Originalta dekha yabe to? (Can I see the original?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, original dekhato . . . (Yes, show him the original . . .) Devotee: Konta? (Which one?) Lalitā Prasāda: Oiye . . . khamer modhye . . . (That . . . may be inside the envelope . . .) Devotee: Baksa ta? (The box?) Lalitā Prasāda: Bakse ache? (Is it in the box?) Devotee: Govinda jabe. (Govinda knows.) Lalitā Prasāda: Namabi, amar kalke darkar . . . iye porbe, bar kore an. (Get those down, I need it tomorrow . . . he will read, take out and give.) Devotee: Koi er modhye to? (Into this?) Lalitā Prasāda: Dakde na, Govinda ke dak de. (Call Him. Call Govinda.) Devotee: Govinda Da. Edike asoto. (Govinda Da. (older brother) Please come here.) Govinda: Han. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amar iye ta de to Govinda . . . (Govinda please give me, my that . . .) (Indistinct conversation) Devotee: Cabi. Edike khola ache. (Key. Oh it's open from this side.) Lady: Durga thakurer yerakam, yebhabe ache ei maper bhetarei karate hobe to? (Will it be done like the same size, of our Durga deity?) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . hya, otei . . . (yes, that's the one . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Govinda: Hmm, hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Pechane, sesh bhage, pechan dike. Pack kar. Ekbar dekhiye dicche, original ta, original ta . . . oi trunk te original ta. (Backside, at the end, backside. See. Will show you. The original, the original . . . the original one is in the trunk.) (sound of trunk) *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ami dekhlum, eta yodi amar niye rakhi . . . amar bhaipo sob oi rakam . . . sob . . . (indistinct) . . . khoka abar nasta korbe . . . ar . . . ar amar, badha diye . . . Hari*-nam . . . boi chapay, badha diyeche . . . amake badha diyeche, aj ami ekti school khulte partum, amake tao badh diyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . jor kore beriye gelam . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane oder kache thakle kicchu korte dilo na . . . (indistinct) . . . Hari-nam . . . (I thought that, if I keep with me . . . my nephew's, all like that . . . (indistinct) . . . will destroy all . . . and my, my . . . hindered . . . the Hari-nam . . . book printing, they have opposed . . . they have opposed me, now I could open a school, but they have opposed me . . . (indistinct) . . . forcefully I came out . . . (indistinct) . . . because they will not let me do anything if I stay with them . . . (indistinct) . . . Hari-nam . . .) (indistinct Bengali) (break) (indistinct conversation) Lalitā Prasāda: Pele na. (Haven't you got it.) Prabhupāda: Don't keep there. There is tendency of falling down. Śyāmasundara: I'll just wash my hands then I'll sit it nicely. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali conversation) Devotee: . . . registration of company yar . . . (. . . registration of company . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, registration company. Eiye, eti. (Yes registration of company. Here, here it is.) *Devotee: . . . Bhaktivinode*-goṣṭhī. Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Eta nakal na asol ta? (Yes. Is it a duplicate or the original one?) Devotee: . . . registration. Lalitā Prasāda: Eiye . . . (Here . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Devotee: Eta ki? (What is this?) Lalitā Prasāda: Nao, emni khule niye yao. (Take this, open and take it off.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . goṣṭhī Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . gosthi holo, paribar . . . (what means by goṣṭhī , it is a family . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Ah. Family. Lalitā Prasāda: And who who will declare that . . . (indistinct) . . . a religious ceremony he will have Full power . . . he can do everything. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Śevite? Śyāmasundara: These are the Śevite? Lalitā Prasāda: Śrī Sevites. Lalitā Prasāda: Śevite has more importance than anybody . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Then there is the signature of the seven persons. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Rules and regulations? Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Śyāmasundara: . . . of Śrī Bhaktivinode*-goṣṭhī. Constitution. Constitution. This charitable religious literary association or society called Śrī Bhaktivinode-goṣṭhī is constituted and composed of seven members. Some of them paying subscription annually, and others for life paying subscriptions at a time. Including the Śevite of the Ulla Śrī Bhaktivinode Dvāras Mandir in the municipal town of Birnagar in the district of Nadia, West Bengal and the goṣṭhīpati of the society. All of whom will form the mem . . . Prabhupāda: Goṣṭhīpathi of the society . . . of Vṛndāvana? Gosthipati ke? (Who is goṣṭhīpati ?) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Gosthipati ami. (I am goṣṭhīpati .) Śyāmasundara: He's goṣṭhīpati . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: All of whom will form the managing executive committee and governing body, and will be eligible to become office bearers and will hold posts as - 1. President and Vice president. 2. Secretary and joint or assistant secretaries. 3. Treasurer and 4. Librarian, oh no. 5. Treasurer and librarian. 6. Accountant. 7. Auditor. 8. Manager. 9. Goṣṭhīpathi . 10. Sevite and his assistants to perform seva and pūjā of deities at the said Mandir . And will hold any other post or posts which will be created afterwards by the committee as under the rules. Subscription of life member shall be annually 300 rupees at a time. Lalitā Prasāda: Onader na bolle to, prastut hoy na. (If it's not specified, then they won't be ready.) Prabhupāda: Hmm Śyāmasundara: The subscription for ordinary member shall be rupees one per month or rupees 12 per annum. Prabhupāda: 300 for whom? Śyāmasundara: Life members. Prabhupāda: Hmm, life members. Śyāmasundara: At a time. Prabhupāda: Tahole, Oh . . . (Then, Oh . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . kore diyechi ami, tarpor public korche . . . ye, ya hok yoga yog kora hoyeche . . . se asbe . . . ami yato din bece achi . . . (I have added, then the public is doing . . . somehow, in whatever way, they will communicate . . . and come . . . but 'till the time I am living . . .) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Amarto sob nasta kore diyeche . . . onek larai korechi ami. Amader ekhane nasta korbe? Ar na. (My everything they have spoiled . . . I fought a lot. Will spoil everything here at our place? Not any more.) Śyāmasundara: These members will be solely and wholly in charge of the money. Gurudas: Who? Śyāmasundara: These members. Lalitā Prasāda: Those are . . . Śyāmasundara: Seven member. Lalitā Prasāda: Technical constitution.Technical constitution. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: Under laws of . . . (indistinct) . . . illegal. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Those are written according to the legal . . . Śyāmasundara: Legal code? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. These, these seven members? . . . (indistinct) . . . says these members. That is the seven members? . . . (indistinct) . . . says these members. That is the seven members? Lalitā Prasāda: Seven members regular members Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: They are always holding on this) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: And others, the others, lot's of members. Thousand and thousand members . . . (indistinct) . . . account what has gone wrong? (laughs) (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: It sounds like our constitution. Prabhupāda: It is the same. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhabo onake. (Will show him.) . . . (indistinct) Lady: Na, daber jal. (No, water of green coconut.) Lalitā Prasāda: Daber jal, khub bhalo lage. (Water of green coconut, that's good.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . in my own mind . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Ar debo? (Shall give more?) Prabhupāda: Aro ache? (Is there more?) Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Dao. (Give me.) Lalitā Prasāda: Only challenge, who will be secretary? And who will be the . . . (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, eita hate lekha . . . (Oh, this is written by hand . . .) this is handwritten? We shall try . . . (indistinct) Jayapataka: Yogapith kono katha ache? (Is there any writings on Yogapitha?) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, yogapith rakhte cai ni. Yogapith . . . apnader Guru chilo . . . (No, did not want to keep a Yogapitha. Yogapitha . . . your Guru was there . . .) Jayapataka: Sadananda Sukherkoli? Lalitā Prasāda: Sadananda sukherkoli . . . (indistinct) . . . ekdike chilo bengal . . . (at one side was Bengal . . .) govt. . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . amar bhaira sob oirakam apni janen to, sob anya rakam . . . age oigulo nasta kore ditei byasta. Ta ami oderke tyag korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . keno tumi . . . oke . . . ami sune eichi (you know the type of my brothers, they are different . . . they were eager to spoil these first. When I decided to leave them . . . (indistinct) . . . why you will . . . him . . . I listen to all these) . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . sob amar pac hajar boi nasta kore diyeche . . . curi kore niye geche . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (have spoiled five thousand books . . . they took away by stealing.) Five thousand. Invaluable. Finished. We will never get those stocks in the library. Kept five thousand books . . . again I purchased . . . and locked there . . . (indistinct) . . . you take book and go out. Śyāmasundara: Is library here? Devotee: Yes. We purchased the . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: And, and . . . (indistinct) . . . amar lekhapara nasta korarbar jonya ora . . . ora ekdom . . . (to destroy my reading and writings they are . . .) (Bengali conversation) Prabhupāda: Amar mone hoy . . . ye, amader ye society ache . . . (I think . . . just as we have our society . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ei bhabe . . . (Same way . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eki bhabe . . . (The same way . . .) Prabhupāda: Eki bhabe . . . (Same way . . .) Prabhupāda: To, apnader society amaderke . . . amader society ke, eta lease diye dik. (So, your society can give us, our society, a lease.) For development. Tahole, simple hoye yabe. Apnader ya management ache thak. Kintu ei jaygata, samasta develope korbar jonye, (Then, it will become simple. Let the management remain with you. But for the development of this place,) we hold the lease from you. Lalitā Prasāda: For how many years? Legal limit ache. (There are legal limits.) Prabhupāda: Legal limit, so 99 years. Lalitā Prasāda: 99 years. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kore den. Taholei sob amra arambha kore di. Apnader ya constitution thak. Amader constitution amader kache. Kintu eta lease, amra sob develop kori. Bas . . . (you do it. Then we can start. Let your constitution remain the same. We have our own constitution. Only on lease we will develop this place. That's all.) Simple fact. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole amader member der deke, decision kora yak. (That means now we have to convene a meeting of the members and make a decision.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Eito? (That's what you mean to say?) *Prabhupāda: Kore. Bas. Amader ekta lease kore den, ar amra arambha kore di kaj. Kaj ar ki hobe, mandir tairi hobe, bagan tairi hobe, park tairi hobe. Eisob dash*-panera jan ekhane thakbe. Apnader lok ache kirtan hobe . . . ei hobe, ar ki. (After doing that, that's all. You prepare the lease for us, and we can begin work. Then, the temple, garden and park can be built. Ten or fifteen people will come to stay here. You also have some people they will have kirtana . . . this is what will happen.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eito jinish . . . tai jonyeito hoyeche, naile onno kichur jonye hoyni to. (This place is there only for these things, not for anything else.) Prabhupāda: Onya kichur jonye hoyni to? (Does this happen for anything else?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekhane kau ke dhukte dini, kono . . . (indistinct) . . . aste dini. (I haven't allowed anyone to come here, any . . . (indistinct) . . . I haven't allowed.) Prabhupāda: Sutarang, (Therefore,) simple lease for so many years, with option to revive. Eram bhabe ekta khali lease kore den, bas hoye gelo. (Just make a lease like this, and it's done.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Ki bollen? (What did you say?) Prabhupāda: Eram ekta lease kore den. (Please make a lease.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Bas, ato gift korte hobena. Gift korar darkar nei. (That's all, you don't have to gift. There's no need for gift.) We don't want proprietorship, you give us lease. Lalitā Prasāda: Lease. Prabhupāda: For 99 years. For development, that's all. Tarpore amra sob kore nebo. Amader lok thakbe, apnader lok thakbe, seva, puja hobe. (After that we will do everything. Your people will be there, and our people will be there to render service and worship.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Er er er . . . ekla, ei paryanta ya, ta ghot te thakuk . . . (Alone, let it remain 'till this . . .) Prabhupāda: To thak. (Let it remain.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ar odik ya ache . . . (And on that side whatever is there . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, odik ta, oidikta amader lease kore dao. (Yes, that side, just give us lease for that side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Seram dharaner bod mais. (Here the boys are notorious.) Prabhupāda: Eta apnader . . . (This thing of yours . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eiye amaro icche tai. (It's not my wish also.) Prabhupāda: Thik. Eidikta apnader yeman ache thak, oi dikta amader diye din. (Very correct. Let this portion remain as it is, just give us that side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole ami kore yabo, era . . . (I am doing all these, they . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Bas, bas . . . (All right, all right . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Oidikta onek jami ache . . . oi . . oi kaj khana tumi karo. (On that side the quantity of land is more . . . that . . . on that side you start work.) Prabhupāda: Hya, oidikta amra grahan korbo. (Yes, that side we will take.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole apni, ama . . . amar . . . amar mate . . . mat tai. (So you also have the same opinion.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarikh asbe kobe. Lease kore dei. (When the date will come. Let me lease to you.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babuke giye bal ge. Kartik babu parbe ki? (Tell this to Kartik babu. Can Kartik babu do this?) Devotee: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babur to apnar sange dekha hoyni. (Kartik babu didn't meet with you yet.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babur sange dekha hoy ni. (Couldn't meet Kartik babu (Mr. Kartik). Kartik babu) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: Ek sange porechi college. (We study together at the same college.) Prabhupāda: Tahole to amader college, Scottish te to amra porechi. (It's our college then, we studied at Scottish.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Subhas Bose age . . . iye te porto . . . Presidency . . . (Subhas Bose studied there, in his Presidency . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Subhas to amar bhai, choto bhai, Janaki kakar chele. (Subhas is my brother, younger brother, the son of Janaki uncle.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) Janakipada ar Haripada, dui bhai. Ar Balaram chilo . . . (Janki Pada and Hari Pada, they are two brothers. And Balaram was . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Janaki Babu ki apnader atmiya hoten? (Was Janaki Babu a relative to your family?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei Madan Mohan Dutta holo relative, Kolkatar sabceye baro chilen Madan Mohan Dutta. (Madan Mohan Dutta was relative of ours, Madan Mohan Dutta was a great personality of Kolkata) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya, Madan Mohan Dutta nam sunechi. (Yes I heard about Madan Mohan Dutta.) Lalitā Prasāda: Madan Mohan Dutter . . . or nam (Madan Mohan Dutta's . . . his name . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: Tobe amar bhai hoy samparke, kaka (In relation they are my brother, uncle in fact . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Janaki Bose. Lalitā Prasāda: Hmm, Janaki Bose . . . Prabhupāda: Accha, Kartik Boser sange apnader . . . (Do you have any link with Kartik Bose . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Kar? Kartik Boser sathe . . . (Who? With Kartik Bose . . .) Prabhupāda: Dr. Kartik Bose . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Na, amader sange kono samparka nei. Ami kichu janine yodi kichu hoy, ami janine. Ami sob jani kintu se, amar jana kichu nei. (No, we don't have any relation with them. At least I don't know if there is any relation, I don't know. I have knowledge of all these, but I don't know anything about this.) Prabhupāda: Ami Kartik Boser laboratorir manager chilam. (I used to work as a manager in Kartik Bose's laboratory.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni bolechilen . . . (You told . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Uni amar babar khub bisesh bandhu. (He (Kartik Bose) was a very special friend of my father.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khub bha . . . Kartik Babu . . . amyao khub bhalobasten choto belay, ami yetam majhe majhe okhane. . . . (indistinct) . . . ar Khudiram Bose . . . (indistinct) . . . nam ke na jane. (Oh Kartik Babu . . . also loved me a lot in my childhood, I used to visit there occasionally . . . (indistinct) . . . Khudiram Bose, Kalindi Bose, they were known to people.) Prabhupāda: Oi Janaki Bose, Kartik Boser kache asto. Orao oi Harinavi Bose. Ora. (Janaki Bose used to visit Kartik Bose. They are the Bose family of Harinavi. They are.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hari Ballabh Boser choto bhai chilo Roy Bahadur. Ora Cuttacke government trader. (His younger brother was Hari Ballabh Bose who was awarded Roy Bahadur. They were Govt Traders in Cuttack.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Janaki Bose pratham government booking . . . (Yes, Janaki Bose's first Govt. booking . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oderto Elgin Roade bari. (Their home is at Elgin Road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Pare bolchi. Pare yog korchi ye, or Baruipure bari, Baruipur. (Will tell you later. They added it later that is, their home was at Baruipur, Baruipur.) Prabhupāda: Oh, Baruipur. Lalitā Prasāda: Baruipur . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kartik Bosero bari Baruipur. (Kartik Bose's home was also at Baruipur.) Lalitā Prasāda: Janaki . . . Janaki Boser kache giye ei kagaj gulon dekhiyechi, bollo ekhane rekhe dao ami kore debo. Manus . . . taka . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta o paisa nite gelo. (Once I had shown some of my work to Janaki Bose at his residence, he said ok you can leave it here, I will do rest of the things. Man . . . money . . . (indistinct) . . . so he went asking for money.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Paisa nite gelo. Ar ek dhamkani dadake . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). Ta eisob gulo dadar bisaye bollen, amito chele manus, ami ha kore sunlum. (laughs). Ami sobar ceye choto. Takhano khub illegal kichu janina, apnake tai ektu bolchi ami esob katha. (Went to ask for money. And elder brother received chastisement . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). My brother told me this. I was young then, I only listened silently. (laughs). As I was the youngest of all, I didn't have any idea regarding legal things, I am just casually saying all these things to you.) *Prabhupāda: Hya. Ar Allahabade oi Mittir ra chilo, seo apnader kuttumba. Karon Prabhupad Allahabade yakhan gechilen, amra se paichari kore, kore gappo kortam, Mittir der katha uni sob jijnes*-tijnes korchilen. (Yes. The Mittirs of Allahabad, I think they are also somehow related to your family. Because when Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura) visited Allahabad, we used to talk while strolling, and he was also asking about the Mittir family.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob, mane Kolkata sahare to amra chara keu chilo na . . . (Oh. I mean in Kolkata at that time there were not many people besides us . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, Hatkholar Duttara to . . . (The Dutta's of Hatkhola . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni yodi . . . apnaro puron lok ami ekshani ber kore debo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar oi Ghosh Babu. (Now if you . . . I can show you the older residents than you . . . (indistinct) . . . and that Ghosh Babu.) Prabhupāda: Kono rakame te, ekhon abar sob sangyog hoyeche. (Somehow or other now everyone got connected again.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami sob jani, ami giye Maitra da . . . aro bhabi, ke? kabe? Se mela din dekhinito, ke oi lokta? (I know all these, I went, Maitra da . . . I just think, who? When? As I have not seen them since long, who is this person? (laughs) (Ami besh bhabi. Apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . kothay thake? (I only think. Your . . . (indistinct) . . . where does he stay?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Amader bari chelo Harrison roade. (Our home was at Harrison Road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Harrison roade (Harrison Road) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oi ye Go . . . Gokul Gosvai chilo na? (That Gokul Gosvai was not?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, Gokul Gosvai. (Yes, Gokul Gosai.) Prabhupāda: Oi paray. (In that locality.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ar Biswa sahajagita korben . . . oi iye sarkar debe. Takhan ami choto chilem, or ceye choto. Sange, sange gelum . . . (indistinct) . . . onek lok chilo, segulo sob amake bhalobasto. (Yes, and Biswa will help us . . . Govt. will give. Then I was young, younger than him. So I go with him . . . (indistinct) . . . there were many people, all of them loved me.) Prabhupāda: Ke na bhalobasbe apnake? (Who will not love you?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ayaa? (What?) Prabhupāda: Ke apnake bhalobasbe na? (Who won't love you?) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . amake kato ador korto . . . (they used to care for me a lot . . .) Prabhupāda: Dekhte bhalo. Choto chele, sabai bhalobase. (You are good looking. Youngest son, everyone loves naturally.) (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, uni yekhanei yeten, amake niye yeten . . . Bhaktivinod yekhanei yeten . . . (Actually, He used to take me with him wherever he would go . . . wherever Bhaktivinoda would go . . .) Prabhupāda: Ami chelebelay khub dekhte bhalo chilen monei hocche, dekhei bojha yacche. (At your young age you were so good looking that anyone can understand by seeing you.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amake sob jaygay niye yeto erom kore . . . (He used to take me everywhere, like this . . .) Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami ki . . . (Will I . . .) Prabhupāda: Apnader sob bhairai sob dekhte bhalo. (All of your brothers are good looking.) Lalitā Prasāda: Nam, dak chilo na kichu, Bhaktivinod Thakurer. (But didn't have any name, fame of Bhaktivinoda Thakura.) Prabhupāda: Ei . . . ei Gosvai ti katdin royeche apnar kache? (How long this . . . this Gosvai (Vaisnava) is here with you?) Lalitā Prasāda: O ajke aat bachor amar kache thake. Oh saat bachore . . . (He is here for about eight years. His seven years . . .) Lady: Saat bachor bayose bari chere ache. (At the age of seven he came from home.) Lalitā Prasāda: Saat bachor bayose or baba chere diye gelo eikhane. (His father left him here at the age of seven.) Prabhupāda: Besh . . . besh calak chele. (Well . . . he is very clever boy.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, khub calak noy. (No, not that much clever.) Prabhupāda: Khub calak noy? Boka? (Not that much? A bit foolish?) Lalitā Prasāda: Brainta ektu defective ache. Amar kache theke khanikta hoyeche, kintu oi schoole yabar por abar . . . (His brain is a little defective. Some improvement happened after he stayed here with me, but once he began to go to school . . .) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . svikar korben na . . . (not going to accept it . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . abar kharap hoyeche, schoole yabar por kharap hoyeche. (again defective. After going to school he became defective.) Lady: Or maa'r oi eki . . . (His mother also has the same problem . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: A khub byasta amader anbar janya. (He is very eager to bring us here.) Lady: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Niscai. (Of course.) Prabhupāda: Apni bolchen boka, kintu amaderke anbar janya o byasta. (You are saying he is a fool, but he is very eager to bring us.) Lalitā Prasāda: O boka noy, ei samyandhe boka noy. (He is not a fool, at least not on these issues.) Prabhupāda: A samyandhe khub calak? (Very clever on such matters.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, kebol schooler pora, masterder bolbe, kichukshon pore, repeat korbe bhule yabe, ar ei fail hoye yabe. (Only the studies of school, teachers will scold. When they ask him questions, he will forget and eventually will fail the exam.) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mane, Fokre Bhatcarjee, thaki Hatkhola, falanite atta*-sota, bikrir name kac kala. (laughter) Ki tai naki? (Means all other aspects are fine but when it comes to the matter of study, he is like a green banana (very poor) (laughter) So, is it not the fact?) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Falanite atta*-sota, bikrr name kac kala. (Other aspects are good but in study, like a green banana.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun . . . ati choto bayase, oi Mayapur dvipe emon bhakti holo ye, Calcuttay ar yay ni. (See . . . in this young age, he got so much love for Māyāpur, for that he didn't return to Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Tato batei. (That's a fact.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Bap maa esche. Yei bolecchi bap*-maa esche, ek dor . . . ami kole kore niye giye jor . . . bichanay . . . jor kore bichanay bosiyechi . . . (Once his parents have come. As I told him that his parents have come, he ran away . . . I carried in lap and forcefully make him seat in the bed . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Or, Calcuttay or . . . Calcutta te khub influence or. (He has good influence in Calcutta. Very influential in Calcutta.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tahole . . . (Then . . .) now I require massages. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole, kalke kakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . uni . . . uni apnader communicate korbe. (Then, tomorrow which time . . . (indistinct) . . . he . . . he will communicate with you.) Śyāmasundara: Where would you like to take massage? In the sunshine? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: In the sun? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Ki bollo? (What he said?) Śyāmasundara: Massage. Prabhupāda will take massage. Lalitā Prasāda: Nice ache, bosbe. Ei ye sofa, massage korbe? (This sofa is low in height, so will you massage here?) Prabhupāda: A kore debe . . . (He will arrange . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Bichanay kore di? (Should I arrange a bed?) Prabhupāda: Thak bichanay na, madur pete dilei hobe. (Not in the bed, just lay a mat, it will be fine.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei roddure? Naki upare? (In the sunshine or upstairs?) Boy: Upare debo? Upare? Na ghare? (Where will we lay it, upstairs or in the room?) Prabhupāda: Opore keno, oi raddure. (Why upstairs, in the sun.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ghare? (In the room?) Prabhupāda: Na, ei raddure. (No, in the sunshine.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei rode? (Here, in the Sun?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Kasta hobe na? (Will it not be inconvenient?) Prabhupāda: Beshi raddur ki? (Is the sunshine too bright here?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ar Kasta hole, baire aso. (If you feel discomfort then come back.) Boy: Ghar khule dena. (I will open the room.) Prabhupāda: Ektu raddurei bhalo. (It is better in the Sun.) Lady: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, gharer chader opr niye ya na. Chader opor niye gele baro bhalo hoto. (Take them on the terrace. It would have been better on the terrace.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Chader oporer ghar besh bhalo. (In the terrace room, there it would be good.) Prabhupāda: Chade keno? Eito ekhane besh . . . (Why terrace, just here in this place is good . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ekhane ghaser opor besh naram hobe. (Here in the grass, it will be soft here.) Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, bichana kore dao. (Okay, put a bed here.) Prabhupāda: Na, ekta madur pete dilei hobe. (No, just a mat will be good.) Lady: Hya, oitaito choto ache . . . pata chilo. (Yes, that's a little small . . . already arranged.) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu sarser tel. (And a little mustard oil.) Lalitā Prasāda: Very good that you are keeping in your . . . (laughs) I am very glad. Na, apni bacar age, yatadin iye kore protect thaka yay . . . (indistinct) . . . oi dike niye ya to. (Yes, as long as you can be kept alive and protected . . . (indistinct) . . . take to that side.) Lady: Hya, oi Neem tala ta . . . (Yes, beneath that Neem tree . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei bolna. (Hey, tell him.) Lady: Neem tala ta. (Below the Neem tree.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khoka. Ei . . . ei khane dik. (Khoka. This . . . this side he can put.) Lady: Na, na oi Neem tala khub bhalo hobe. (No, no . . . beneath the Neem tree will be good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem tala? (Underneath the Neem tree?) Lady: Garir pase, Neem gach tar kahe, alpo raddur to . . .) (Beside the car, the Neem tree, the sunshine is a little less there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talay jabe? (Will it go beneath the Neem tree?) Lady: Hya, ei Hari. (Yes, hey Hari.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhna Hari. (Hari just see.) Lady: Gaborta sariye de to. (Clear the cow dung.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talay rakh. (Keep it beneath the Neem tree.) Lady: Neem talar gabor ta sariye dik, khub bhalo yayga. (Beneath the Neem tree, just clear the cow dung, it's a very good place.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talar gabar sara. Oi khane mat pete de, Neem talai bhalo. (Clear the cow dung beneath the Neem tree. Lay this mat there, beneath the Neem tree is actually good.) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu khani garam jal cai. (And a little bit of hot water is required.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Khule dilei holo, jal bhara ache. (Water is already stored, just open it.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, jal bharai ache . . . (Oh, water is stored . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh, eite garam hoy? Tahole to kono kathai nei. (Oh, this way it will be hot? That's fine.) Lady: Switch khule dilei hobe. (The switch is to be opened.) Lalitā Prasāda: Switch off kore de hya. (Switch off. Please turn the switch off.) Lady: Switch off. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Jal puro ache to? (The water is stored?) Boy: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Buro manuser janya byabasta rakhi. (Keep facilities for old people.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ami eikhane bolechi . . . (I have also told . . .) Prabhupāda: You also take bath? Devotees: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Then, kothay . . . (where . . .) Prabhupāda: Taken already. Gurudāsa: No. Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun, ei jaygay bollum . . . hatt. . . . gyan debe amake . . . (indistinct) . . . age mandire jal debo. Ekhon sei lokta . . . (indistinct) . . . choto kakar kache, se amar nam janta, oh oke age niye yan . . . (indistinct Bengali) (See, here I told . . . (indistinct) . . . first you go to the temple. Now that person . . . to my younger uncle, he knew my name . . .) Gurudāsa: That bathing ghat by Bhaktivinode's . . . Lady: Hya eikhane, Prabhu takhon aseni, ami pratham . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Yes here, Prabhu hasn't come 'till then, first I . . .) Devotee: Yeah, I'll show you the temple. Gurudāsa: All right. Devotee: I'll just take you to the . . . Lady: Ei Hari Das. (Hey Hari Das.) Hari Das: Ki? (What?) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: You know that I just did a round by the birth site. It was wonderful. Devotee: Around of . . . (indistinct) . . . of beads Gurudāsa: Beads. Now I'll do some film. Lady: Chele gulon ki dustu, dekhechen? Chele gulo dustu kato phal curi kore niye palacche. (Have you seen, the naughty boys are running away after stealing fruits.) Prabhupāda: Ki? (What?) Lalitā Prasāda: Chelegulo palacche. (The boys are fleeing.) *Lady: Chola*-tola jinis niye-tiye cole yacche. (Taking away chickpeas and other things.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amar chola sob curi korche . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Stealing all my chickpeas . . .) *Lady: Takhane ekdin ei, hariken, hariken, ami takhan eka, voger thala eiram niye harikenta hater bhetar dharbar o lok nai, ami to dhore upare yabo, bhog niteo hobe. Rattire eram kore. Tarpore, teler control hoye gelo, kerosen ar mele na. To mombati jvaliye chi. Mombati ke niye haoay baisak-jaista mase upore otha yay? To ki korbo, se mombati ba-hate dhore thala, bhoger thala eram kore niye yacchi, se bari te bolar lok o nei. Chat kore majh khane sirite, alota nive . . . mombati ta nive gelo, se cokhe ekta jol . . . thakur ami ki kore tomar ei thala ami niye yai, thakur tumi alor byabasta karo, amra to sudra jiv ki kore korbo? Amar, amar emon divya cokshu nai ye, ami niye yai, tai bole sei sirir pore bhoger thala niye amar cokhe jal ese gelo. Thik tar pore Prabhu aslo ar chay maser bhetarei . . . (Then one day, this hariken (lantern), I will show you, taking the bhoga plate like this, taking the hariken inside the arm. No one available to hold, if someone could hold the lantern to go upstairs, to take the bhoga . Like this at night time. Then one day Govt. controlled the fuel supply, kerosene was out of stock. So light up the candle. But what is the use of a candle in the high wind of April to May evening. What to do, by holding the candle in the left hand and the plate of bhoga in the other hand, I was going, no*-one was there to help. Then on the way in the stair the candle blew out. Tears came to my eyes, I said: "Oh my Lord how will I bring the bhoga plate to you now, please arrange for some light Lord. We are sudra jiva , how will I be able to do it? I don't have any divine vision that I can bring," while thinking like this, standing in the stair with the bhoga plate, tears came out from my eyes. The next year Prabhu came and within six months this . . .) Prabhupāda: Electric. Lady: Ei . . . ei, electric alo ese gelo . . . alor byabsta karo. Ta sei sange sange siri te alo deoa chilo, siri diye uthe . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Electric light came . . . arrange for light. There was some light in the stair, getting up the stair . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . be at home, bari. Kono lajja korben na, ya kichu lagbe bolben, tairi kore debo . . . (home. Don't feel shy, whatever you will ask anyone to do, they will do it.) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya . . . lajja kiser? (Oh yes, we won't feel shy.) Lalitā Prasāda: Be at home. . . be at home. Śyāmasundara: BH . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Be at home. Prabhupāda: Be at home. Śyāmasundara: be at home. Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: We're at home. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: We are at our father's house. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, apnara ekhane korle . . . very good park hobe. Ar ek khana gari dhuke yabe. Mone karun ei gaye only two hours, jor kore calale . . . (indistinct) . . . dui ghantay Calcutta pauche yaben. (If you could do it here . . . that would be a very good park. And cars also can be parked. From this village it will take only two hours, if you drive the car very fast . . . (indistinct) . . . in two hours time you will reach Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Besh. (Well.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekjan thakla ki na boye gelo. (It does not matter if one stays here or not.) Prabhupāda: Na, eikhane to amader antata dash jan lok thakbe, ar apnader lok ache. Anabarata utsab hobe, kirtan hobe, ei sob korbe. (Actually about ten of our people will be staying here, and your people are also there. There will be continuous festivals, kirtanas , all these will be.) Lalitā Prasāda: Beshi lok theke gele . . . (If many people stay . . .) *Lady: . . . ei ye badmais chele gulor ki abasta. Oi dekho, rekhe abar asche. Ekshoni niye yabe, oi ye aat*-dash ta, baro, baro atharo bayos, kuri bachorer chele gulo, ki atyacar kore . . . (just see the condition of these wicked boys. See, again they are coming. About eight to ten, grown up boys, eighteen to twenty years of age, they torture us a lot.) Prabhupāda: Ki niye geche? (What did they take away?) *Lady: Pacta dab gacher, ekta yodi thakurer bhog dite dey, ei dab kine ante hoy. Erakam abasta. Chata narkel gacher, ei dui bachor*-tin er modhye ektao thakur ke bhog dite dey na. (Amongst five of the coconut trees, we don't get even a single green coconut for offering bhoga to Lord, this green coconut we have to purchase, this is the condition. Six coconut trees there, within this two to three years not a single coconut we get to offer for bhoga to Lord.) Prabhupāda: Sob, bhadra loker chele sob cor hoye yacche . . . (Boy is from decent family has become a thief . . .) Lady: Ei sob, ar schooler chelera. (These are all, and some school boys are also there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sono, (Listen,) whole Bengal, whole. *Lady: Eikhane chola*-mator lagiyechi, dekhen ardhek chola sesh kore niye geche, gacher okhane gelei faka-faka. Mator guloto sobi niye geche. Sei alpo duto thakbe, rattire saat tar samay hariken dhare ami, duto gach, se tule niye geche. Rakhena . . . curi kore niye geche. Eiram abasta. (We did some chickpeas and yellow split peas plantation here, half of the chickpeas plants have been taken away, the land became empty. The yellow split peas have taken it all. There were few left. I went there at 7:00 pm at night with a hariken in my hand, and found that they have taken away those also. They never leave something for us . . . they steal always. This is the condition.) Lalitā Prasāda: Even a single, all bengal . . . (indistinct) . . . all are thieves, all are worse. Lady: Ei bel, bel ache bhalo . . . T(his wood apple, good wood apple . . . ) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Ei upadrabta bandha kara yacche na kichutei . . . (indistinct) . . . bera bhenge dhuke, oi kore dey. (These disturbances could not be stopped in any way. . . . (indistinct) . . . by breaking the border fence, and do this.) Prabhupāda: Sob yodi cor . . . thag bachte gao ujar. Tahole r ki kore ki hobe? (When everyone is a thief, you won't find an honest man in the village. Then how anything can happen.) Lady: Eito muskil. (That's the problem.) *Lalitā Prasāda: O niye kichu bhab bar nei, beshi lok hole, ora bhoy peye yabe. Yodi dash*-baro jan thake . . . (indistinct) . . . korlei ora paliye yabe. Cheler dal to . . . (No need to be worried, when there will be more people here, they will be afraid. When there will be ten to twelve people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will flee away. Just a group of young boys . . .) Devotee: Ektake dhore ene, yodi rakha yay ghare, baki sob palie yabe. (If any one of them can be caught and kept hold in a room, the rest of them will run away.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ami ekhone ekjon, dui*-ekjonke dhore anba ye, ei dol theke . . . ar amake keu manena. Oi pas diye lukiye, lukiye yay. Ami, ki ye bale, ei bol curi korbi chele? 'Tobe ektu na hoy korechi, schoole gechi, school kore gechi, schooler kaj baniyechi'. Ajke school name eschis, kothay school toder? (If I caught one or two of them from this group . . . but no one cares about me. They go from that side by hiding. If I ask, "Hey child tell me will you steal again?" They answer, "What happens if we have stolen a little thing, but we went to school, finished the classes, done our all home tasks." You came in the name of school, where is your school?) Prabhupāda: Kiser lekha para? Sob baje lekha para. (What education? All nonsense studies.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ar ekhoni shikhchena. (They are learning nothing.) Prabhupāda: Cor, cor sob. (Thieves, all are thieves.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekebarei shikhchena. (Not learning at all.) Prabhupāda: Cor, bodmais. Esob Hari bha . . . Hari bhajan na korle, Hari bhakti na kore hoyeche. (All thieves and rascals. When Hari bhajan and Hari bhakti are not done, all these things happen.) Lady: Hya, erom hoy. (Yes, such things happen.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā ( SB 5.18.12) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: There's a place under this . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (reading newspaper) Ajker kagaje. (In today's newspaper.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Today's paper. Bengali devotee: Today's paper. Devotee: Bengali? Bengali devotee: Hya, Yes. You can't read. Lalitā Prasāda: Ei juta baire niye ya. (Take these shoes outside.) Lady: Gamcha ki debo? (Should we give you a gamcha ?) Madan: Gamcha dao to. (Give me the gamcha .) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Gamcha debo? Ei Madan. (Should we give you a gamchha ? Hey Madan.) Madan: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ekta gamcha ber kore dao. (Please bring one gamcha and give it.) Madan: Konta debo? (Which one to give?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Russia, France ar Britain. Bharat, Pak sarasari alocana cay. (Russia, France and Britain. Wants a direct dialogue between India and Pakistan.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dupakshi? (Bilateral?) Bengali devotee: Dupakshi, hya dupakshi. (Bilateral, yes bilateral.) (break) A tide of discussion between India and Pakistan. Russia. Greece, France and Britain want. Jayapataka: Narikel tyal ache? (Do you have coconut oil?) Lalitā Prasāda: Narikel tel? (Coconut oil?) Jayapataka: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Ki ache maa . . . suneni. Maa, narkel tel. (Yes. Let me ask mother. Mother, coconut oil.) Jayapataka: Narkal tel . . . (The coconut oil . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, asun, (aside) bati kore dao. Dhele dile na? Maa ke balo na. (No, now use from this bowl. (aside) Please pour it, ask mother.) Bengali Devotee: Maa ke balo ekta bati . . . bati to chilo. Dekhi . . . (Ask mother to give a bowl . . . bowl was there. Let me check . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Jayapataka: Ei jinish kothay rakhbo? (Where should we keep these things?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? (What?) Boy: Dada, oder gharta khule de na. (Brother please open that room for them.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ei ghar khule dao na. Eikhane, (Yes, open that room please. In that room,) nobody will go. You keep the key. You keep the key. Lady: Ei ghar khule diye ay, khule diye ay . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Go and open the room) . . . (break) Śyāmasundara: Ah? Lalitā Prasāda: I get sun. Śyāmasundara: Sun. You are out for sun also? Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, I am leaving. Śyāmasundara: So you are leaving? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Okay. Lalitā Prasāda: I get sun . . . in the winter sun come, come . . . that way. Śyāmasundara: So you will move over and sit here? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. I always sit . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Ah . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: That room. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: You're staying? Lady: Oi roome. In that room.) Śyāmasundara: We will sit there? Lalitā Prasāda: Nah. Bengali devotee: The room is. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . go with them. Śyāmasundara: That's all right I don't need to go anywhere. Lalitā Prasāda: You go, go with them. Bengali Devotee: You come with me. Lalitā Prasāda: There is another room. Śyāmasundara: All right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: Okay. (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: We want to walk. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . go there. Śyāmasundara: Okay, all right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Okay. Lalitā Prasāda: A guest. Śyāmasundara: We'll go see. Thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: Ar Bhaktivinod Thakurer hater lekha asirbad (The handwriting of Bhaktivinoda Thakur, it's a blessing . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali). Jayapataka: Hya, amio porchi. (Yes, I too am reading.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapataka: Amio porchi. (I am also reading.) Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinod eke ar oi amader Prabhupad ke khub bhalo basten. Ar ini choto chele, sneha ektu beshi hoy chotor opor. (Bhaktivinoda used to love our Prabhupada and him (Lalita Prasada) very much. And he is the youngest son, affection naturally grows more on the youngest.) (break) He looks like his father also. Śyāmasundara: His mother appears very beautiful also in those photos. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Shining face. That man is reading the newspaper to him. He will rest. Every day he gets all the news. Prabhupāda: This is the system, old aristocratic. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: Every old man should engage a man to read news. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Spread it. Śyāmasundara: On the ground? Prabhupāda: Yes. Watch the bottle. It will be dry within 10 minutes by the time I take my. Yadubara: I shouldn't wring that should I? *Prabhupāda: No, simply make this. Here that's all spread. Spread it that is sufficient. Hari*-nāma hari-nāma . It will be dry in 10 minutes. Yes he knows, that's it. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yadubara: Easy way to iron. Śyāmasundara: These are old temples? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: These are very old temples? Prabhupāda: Yes. At least 200 years. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Always they have worshipped Viṣṇu in this temple? Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to worship goddess Kali. Śyāmasundara: Oh, is that boy some relation? Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Just a friend. Society. A good boy. Prabhupāda: I have given him the suggestion the whole thing is solved in one minute. He also agrees. Śyāmasundara: Lease. Prabhupāda: Lease. Śyāmasundara: 99 years. Prabhupāda: That's it. Śyāmasundara: Not for proprietorship for development. Prabhupāda: What is the use of proprietorship? Śyāmasundara: What do we care? (laughs) Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: 99 years, our life, your life, your grand . . . your son's life . . . we have to give some service so long the body is there, otherwise what shall I do with the property? Everything will remain here. Śyāmasundara: He knows that you are in a position to develop it until some. Prabhupāda: Yes, 99. So one bucket cold water and one bucket hot water and one soap. Śyāmasundara: One hot and one cold . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda is a good massager. Śyāmasundara: Yes. How big is the property here? Does it extend around some distance? Prabhupāda: 20 bigas . Śyāmasundara: 20 bigas , oh that is large. Gurudāsa: Has he agreed to your proposals Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So we should get? Draw up some papers or? Prabhupāda: He'll do it. Śyāmasundara: He'll do it. Very nice. (laughs) So before you leave India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: All these things finished. (break) I was, I always used to dream that you would take us to these places. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: So we require a few cars from America. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Devotee: Jeeps. Śyāmasundara: I think heavy Jeeps. Prabhupāda: That is. Śyāmasundara: Cars like that rough. Devotee: Like UNICEF Jeeps. Śyāmasundara: Or Land Rovers. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if there is bathroom? No? Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . and some more men also I think are required. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa they'll all come out. Gurudāsa: They won't come anyway. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: In Jagannath Purī also. (break) Devotee (2): In Jagannath Purī also. Gurudāsa: Dvārkādīśa, where the boats. Śyāmasundara: Where is Dvārakā dhāma . Devotee: Dvārakā dhāma . Gurudāsa: Dvārakā dhāma when we get some amphibious Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . and was purchased by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura at Rs.150. Acyutānanda: All of it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Per biga? Prabhupāda: No, the whole plot. Acyutānanda: (laughs) Prabhupāda: That was 20 bigas. Śyāmasundara: In Māyāpur that man from the Caitanya Math has bought . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: That's about Rs.10. Less than Rs.10. (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . who had some excess money in hand. (break). After producing they want cash in their hand. The capitalist will take, hold it for some time naturally the price will increase and they will sell it. That system is still going on but it is very dangerously made. People do not bring out the commodity they simply speculate, "I purchased from you, you purchase it from me," so the goods are there and transaction is going on. I sell to you, you sell to him, you sell so on and people do not get the goods. There is scarcity and it is lying somewhere and the speculation is going on. Śyāmasundara: Somewhere else. Prabhupāda: Yes. And because the goods are not coming the market is increasing, you see. This rogueism is going on and there are so many banks although I have no money. Suppose I want to purchase one lakh worth of grains. Somehow or other if I have Rs.20,000 the bank will give me 80,000. So the market is increasing, I'm not selling and when it is to my full satisfaction I sell, I pay the banks money and take a large huge profit. This is going on, in every commodity. Things are not coming out it has become gold exchange. But they will sell just at the beginning of the next season. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise they will be put into knots. (break) Śyāmasundara: No, no as long as you are here I'm not afraid. Prabhupāda: Ah, the population has decreased. Śyāmasundara: They have driven them away. Or killed them. Prabhupāda: When there is . . . just like you do not go to the forest . . . (indistinct) . . . infested with many animals. Similarly they also do not come to the human society and the bigger population. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This is the safe, bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syād (SB 11.2.37), for forgetting Kṛṣṇa all the living entities they are afraid of one another. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That's all. They have forgotten that Kṛṣṇa is the centre he is our father. So there is no fear but that they have forgotten. Now, īśād apetasya viparyayo 'smṛtiḥ , they have forgotten that we are brothers. Therefore fight, we have got equal rights to enjoy the father's property but no, I am taking more you are starving, this is going on. Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all these questions. If everyone has got the right to enjoy father's property why one should take more? This is the best idea of communism, these things are there in Bhāgavata . Bhāgavata says whatever there is in the sky, whatever there is on the land and whatever there is on the water they belong to the Supreme Lord. So every living entity has the right to enjoy it as it is allotted by the Lord. This is Bhāgavata's contribution. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. In other words if a man is born a King he is allowed to enjoy like a King? Prabhupāda: Yes King is to manage these affairs. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: That everything is property of God, you are all sons of God. So King's business is to see that nobody is encroaching upon other's property. Nobody is fighting and he equally distributes the produce, that is the King's duty. He has to see that whether brahmin's are executing their duty, kṣatriya's , vaiśyas according to our division, this is King's duty. To make him Kṛṣṇa conscious but King is simply interested with the tax. No education, so*-called King, then King is finished, now the people have taken in the name of people's government but it is an oligarch. *It is for the interests of a few men and all of them rogues and thieves just like Gandhi started indigenous manufacture. Buy sell car, manufacturing one's own cloth, now that became a show and the government started big big factories owned by capitalists. So Britishers were taking one rupee and eight annas per pair and they are now taking twenty*-one rupees eight annas. Twenty times increase, government does not say anything because they are getting tax in different ways, excise tax, sales tax, income tax and the tax is distributed amongst the government servants. People do not get any benefit. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: 20% from the tax collected, they distribute for the people's welfare and 80% they divided, divided by the governors, rastrapatis, secretaries and government servants—this is the position. One side the capitalist is exploiting and the government is taking tax from them and government means a few men they are enjoying, that's it. This is all over the world I can see, and they want that the people should be engaged in fighting in the name of nationalism and they will enjoy that's all. They have no good idea for the betterment of the position of the citizens. What we are doing every government should have done it—Kṛṣṇa consciousness but the rascals they simply plunder the citizens and enjoy. Wine women and flesh—this is the position. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . there are mlecchas and taking the dress of the King, killing the whole world. (break). Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . foundation, foundation age, foundation korte khub beshi deri korte hobe na, ekhane ek khana foundation korlei building hote parbe, kintu America . . . ei iye . . . Mayapure amar bisvas nei. Kondin ki hobe sunle, uriye debe sob (first foundation, you shouldn't be late to make foundation, just foundation for a single story structure will be ok to make the building, but in Māyāpur I don't have faith. It's full of uncertainty, they will blow away everything . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Mahaprabhu yakhan sannyas niye chilen. (Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa then.) Lalitā Prasāda: Mahaprabhur sannyaser chay bachor por . . . (Six years after Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . tai, sholo bachor ar panera bachor, kato? Sholo ar panera diye ekatrish bachor, takhan Mahaprabhu dakshiner dik ghure esche, ekatrish bachore, abar Shantipur chilo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (so here sixteen years and fifteen years, how much, total thirty one years, then Mahāprabhu returned from his trip to south india, at thirty one year, that time from Shantipur . . .) 12 lakhs of Nadia and all under the . . . (indistinct) . . . and you are putting a temple on that land or nice, (below,) that is river bed. That's why I suggest. Below you, take the site, active site. Tar modhye theke bili korte hobe. (Even then also, you have to distribute from there.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . start by . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Amar, amar, amar ya experience ache. (Mine, mine, mine experience is like this.) Prabhupāda: Otherwise there is meeting 4 o'clock? Śyāmasundara: Not today. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Not today tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Not tomorrow. The press reporter? Śyāmasundara: Oh is there a press meeting? Gurudāsa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: The press reporters from Navadvīpa will come. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: After four. So we must reach there by five, it will take 2 ½ hours. So by half past two we must get out. Lalitā Prasāda: Half past two to kam hoy, two er pore yaba yakhan darkar hoy. (Half past two is not sufficient, better to leave after two.) Prabhupāda: Let us . . . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Damodarer prasad dile . . . ekhon to amra ready. (What about Damodar's prasādam , we are ready now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eito hoye yabe. (aside) Ya na ekhan theke, cole ya . . . (It's almost done. (aside) You go from here, go away . . .) Śyāmasundara: So at about 2 o'clock I will begin working on the car and try to make that horn work. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Without horn, not possible? Śyāmasundara: No, well we can do that again. (laughs) Prabhupāda: What's wrong with that? Śyāmasundara: It's dangerous. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell, ringing a bell. Śyāmasundara: Dinner plate. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Hanging bell Ghanta. (Gong.) Śyāmasundara: No Prabhupāda's plate. You know plate? Brass plate. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Bell we use that. Śyāmasundara: Oh Yeah (laughs). Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Ding dong bell. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Gurudāsa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( Japa ) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) (break) (Prabhupāda's recording Bengali conversation) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Oh Hari Das . . . Oh Hari . . . Ki holo? (What's the status?) Hari: Hya, baba hocche. (It's underway.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog utheche? (Has the bhoga offerings done?) Hari: Hya, bhog uthbe ekhoni. (Yes, almost over. It will be taken out.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh Uthbe ekhoni. (All right. Oh will be taken out now. All right) . . . light lagche? Casma . . . (light is there, eyeglass . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, casma na . . . (No, no eyeglass . . .) (break) na amar casma ache. (I have my eyeglass.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, taito bolchi. Dan coktay ekdom dekhte paina, ba cokta alpo. (Yes, that's what I am telling. Right eye has no vision, left eye has little.) Sideways, side view . . . kaj sere ni . . . (can do my work . . .) Śyāmasundara: Only from the side? Lalitā Prasāda: All back. Śyāmasundara: Only from the side? Lalitā Prasāda: On, on that. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: This side. Śyāmasundara: Left side? Lalitā Prasāda: Left side . . . (indistinct) . . . for me heavy. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Ah . . . no eyeglasses? Lalitā Prasāda: Eyeglasses. I do use, but this is of, onto. Coming cataract. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Full of cataract. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: See here, I can swap. This you can check. This side I can see. *Śyāmasundara: Ah . . . one eye is better than no. A one*-eyed uncle is better than no uncle. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . this eye I had no view . . . (indistinct) . . . I want that operate. I want a doctor to test my eye. Well life is shortened that way. Life is shortened. Devotees: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: If I operate and remove the cataract life will be shortened. Gurudāsa: Oh yes, yes. Lalitā Prasāda: The affect on the whole system. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes that's a fact. Lalitā Prasāda: And even if I live for 100 years you, you, you have to die 40 years ago, or before . . . (indistinct) . . . any operation lessens the longevity of life. Gurudāsa: Yes yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Longevity. Gurudāsa: Longevity of life. Because then something else has to replace that . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Blood circulation stopped and there . . . (indistinct) . . . you are now young men When you will be old, you will understand the difficulty . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: The . . . (indistinct) . . . strengths are diminished. Diminished. Śyāmasundara: Hmm . . . but when you are speaking on religious subjects then your strength comes out? Lalitā Prasāda: Beg your pardon? Śyāmasundara: You said that when you are speaking on religious subjects then your strength comes out. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes, yes, yes. On religious, I don't see any difficulty. A strength of joy up heaven. God sends His, I don't know. Amra ei bar, ei bangaly korechilam, ei ye banglay korechilam . . . onek . . . (indistinct) . . . ek ekjan bole amra diye yabo . . . amra diye yabo . . . (indistinct) (laughs) . . . lokgulo dustu. (Once we did the Bengali version of it, did it in Bengali . . . many . . . (indistinct) . . . people said we will return you back . . . will return you back . . . (indistinct) (laughs) . . . naughty people.) The very people who sing the name of God and know what is holy. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: They're servants of māyā . Gurudāsa: Servants of māyā . Lalitā Prasāda: The illusory energy, I call. Illusory energy. Illusion. Gurudāsa: Yes illusion. Lalitā Prasāda: Illusory energy is māyās shakti . Illusory energy. Have you bed? Bedding? Śyāmasundara: Bedding? Yes they are in Māyāpur. Lalitā Prasāda: In Māyāpur in the early morning. Śyāmasundara: In our camp. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . another morning at Ganges. (gong sounds) Śyāmasundara: Yes we go bathing there. *Lalitā Prasāda: That was the original coast, 400 years ago, the original coast was . . . (indistinct) . . . jan*-nagar straight to the north, up to . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm . . . up to Gandhinagar. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Lalitā Prasāda: . . . jan*-nagar. And Ganga nagar it tries to, Took turn . . . and then it changed towards South. Towards East and then it goes a bit further, and that was the position which were once . . . 400 years ago, 500 years ago . . . (indistinct) . . . when Māyāpur was discovered again, Ṭhākura expressed. But again that stopped, the course have taken another way, by Ramchandrapur's other side, other end . . . (indistinct) . . . I have already written a small narratori how the Ganges shifted from one side to another . . . (indistinct) . . . about twenty miles Ganges shifted than there . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. 20 miles? Lalitā Prasāda: Bangladesh and Māyāpur. And there are 12 lakhs of people on the mainland where you are now building this thing. Śyāmasundara: Hmm? 12 lakhs ? Lalitā Prasāda: 12 lakhs . Now . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Biggest temple in Bengal. We are rising. Lalitā Prasāda: That will be. Śyāmasundara: Yes. One of the biggest in India. Lalitā Prasāda: And, that is declared. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Longest. Longest. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Tallest. Lalitā Prasāda: Longest. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: 200 feet in Bengal there is no higher than this. Jagannath temple near . . . (indistinct) . . . Jagannath Purī that is 108 feet high. Śyāmasundara: 180? Lalitā Prasāda: Twelve thousand, twelve thousand twenty eight, two hundred ten . . . (indistinct) . . . here, here in this picture. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: You know this? Gurudāsa: Yes in Orissa. Lalitā Prasāda: Orissa. Śyāmasundara: In San Francisco California we have New Jagannath Purī. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh yes. Śyāmasundara: In San Francisco. Lalitā Prasāda: At San Francisco. *Śyāmasundara: And we have every year a big Ratha*-yātrā. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes flyer I've seen. Śyāmasundara: You've seen picture? Lalitā Prasāda: I've seen a picture. *Śyāmasundara: (laughs) And in London also Ratha*-yātrā. Lalitā Prasāda: Very good. In London her Majesty should join the Ratha. I think there is a picture. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Candra eh? Śyāmasundara: I think we have now six temples in England. Lalitā Prasāda: Six? Śyāmasundara: Six temples in England. Lalitā Prasāda: One in eh? Śyāmasundara: London, Birmingham. Lalitā Prasāda: Birmingham. Śyāmasundara: Manchester. Lalitā Prasāda: Manchester. Śyāmasundara: Cardiff. Lalitā Prasāda: Cardiff. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Gurudāsa: Edinburgh. Śyāmasundara: Edinburgh. Lalitā Prasāda: Edinburgh? Śyāmasundara: Scotland and Dublin. Lalitā Prasāda: Edinburgh, Dublin? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Ireland and Scotland. Śyāmasundara: Yes Ireland and Scotland. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes all right . . . *Gurudāsa: (sings along with kīrtana in background) bhaja bhakata*-vatsala śrī-gaurahari . Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. In London there are two classes of men. One . . . (indistinct) . . . in Ireland and another . . . (indistinct) . . . Irish in England? Śyāmasundara: In London? Lalitā Prasāda: London, no Ireland. Śyāmasundara: Ireland. Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Ireland is something independent? Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Not under the British rule? Śyāmasundara: No. British have lost their rule everywhere. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes everywhere yes Americans have . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Because they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they will be saved, America. Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: America is now taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in America . . . Lalitā Prasāda: New York? Śyāmasundara: Everywhere. America is taking to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. Lalitā Prasāda: Simple. Śyāmasundara: Simple. Lalitā Prasāda: America . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: No. Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: In all the states? Śyāmasundara: All the big cities. Lalitā Prasāda: All the states? Śyāmasundara: over 60 temples in America. Established by Prabhupāda. Lalitā Prasāda: In the States, where the states? United States of America. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Every big city, one big big temple. Lalitā Prasāda: And everyday pūjā is done. Śyāmasundara: Throughout the day. Lalitā Prasāda: Worshiping done. Eh. Śyāmasundara: All through, starting. Maṅgala-ārati starts 4 o'clock. maṅgala-ārati , maṅgala-ārati 4 o'clock. Lalitā Prasāda: 4 o'clock. Śyāmasundara: Morning. Lalitā Prasāda: Morning. Śyāmasundara: Going up to sundara-ārati 9 o'clock at night. And throughout the day at least 10, 12 ārati. 10 or 12 times, prasādam is offered, ārati. Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog bhog . Śyāmasundara: Bhog . Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog . Oh, aloo bhajche? Bolna. (Hey, are they frying potatoes? Please tell me.) Bengali Devotee: Hya, aloo bhajche. (Yes frying potatoes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Yan na, yan na apnara. (You all can now go there, please go) . . . you go, yan . . . (please go.) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: You go, some of you go. Yan na. (Please go) . . . (indistinct) . . . opore, opore yan. (Upstairs, please go upstairs.) Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Mṛdaṅga. Get mṛdaṅga there . . . (indistinct) . . . mrdanga bajabar lok kam. (Not many mṛdaṅga players today.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ajke mṛdaṅga bajanor lok kam. (Not many mṛdaṅga players today.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kakhana kakhana dhile hoye yay. (Sometimes these get loosened.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, amader ekhane dheke ni. Tabe bajale khub bhalo, khub . . . (No, here we keep them covered. When they play, very good . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Bangladeshta baddo patan hoye geche. (Bangladesh has now degraded too much.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ek bare, ek bare, ek bare. (Yes, very true, very true, very true.) Prabhupāda: Ora rakshas hoye geche. (They have become like monsters.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sakale bole ami bhagavan . . . bhagavan kotha theke tumi . . . (indistinct) . . . bhagavan pabi kothyeke? . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Everybody says that I am God . . . how can you be God . . . (indistinct) . . . how will you get God . . .) Śyāmasundara: You don't eat? Lalitā Prasāda: By the grace of God. One may get some milk . . . (indistinct) . . . five years . . . they are bhaktas they can approach to Godhead. (indistinct) . . . (shouts) Ora ki korche? Ki korche? Son na. Ya, paliye ya. Ei . . . ei jalatan koris na. Bari ya. (laughs) Badarer dol. (What are they doing? What are they doing? Come here. Go, all get lost. Don't disturb us here. Go home. (laughs) All are monkeys.) They are like monkeys. Śyāmasundara: Monkeys? Lalitā Prasāda: These boys are like monkeys. (laughs) Ke Hari Das? Tariye diye ay na sob kota ke. (Is it Hari das? Just drive them all out.) Hari das: Cole geche. (They have gone.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, lock diye cole ay . . . (indistinct) . . . ora sob khabe, bel khabe, kul khabe, e khabe . . . (Yes, you come inside and close the gate. They will eat all the fruits, they will eat wood*-apple, berries, these and that . . .) *Prabhupāda: Am*-tam hole sob niye yay ora? (Mango and other fruits they take all?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, oi am tole. Ami sei jonye am gulo bikr kore di . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes, eat mangoes. That's why we sell the mangoes . . .) Prabhupāda: Ki sob lok hoye geche. (What people have become now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ta pore gelo amader kapal, oder yodi pore yay takhan amader loksan hobe, bhalo to hobe. Amra ki korbo . . . Raghaber jonye . . . (indistinct) . . . bajare . . . (indistinct) . . . Raghab sob jane . . . (indistinct) . . . amrai raksha korbo, apni byasta hoben na. Ami lok . . . lok lagiye raksha korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . am niye paliye yabe, kaca am niye . . . (indistinct) . . . hya sob karbo, kintu moteo sob kore na . . . (indistinct) . . . ki bolbo apnake, eikhane ek bachor hoyeche, ki abasta. Ami sudhu ei gram ti tairi korechi, Nagen babu cole yabar por dash bachor, amader hate chay bachor rakha chilo, ekti lok chilona ye raksha kore . . . (indistinct) . . . se amake jor eram kore haat dhore bolbe, apni age basun, ar ei chairman hon . . . (indistinct) . . . kore diye, bole apni ei raksha korun . . . (indistinct) . . . lok khepe gelo . . . dui hajar sai hoye gelo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (They said like that, now it's our luck. If taken like this, then we will suffer loss, otherwise it may be good. What can we do . . . for Raghab only . . . (indistinct) . . . in the market, Raghab knows it all . . . (indistinct) . . . said we will protect, you please don't worry. I will protect with my people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will flee with the unripe mangoes . . . (indistinct) . . . they say they will do, but actually they don't do all that is needed . . . (indistinct) . . . what to say to you, about the situation here since one year. I just helped to make this village, after leaving of Nagen babu, ten years back from today, six years we manage, no one was here to protect . . . (indistinct) . . . one day he caught my hand and said you please be the chairman . . . (indistinct) . . . after doing that, said now you protect this . . . people got agitated . . . two thousand signatures collected . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Dui hajar jan soi kore dile hoye gelo, municipality mitiye yak. (Two thousand signatures are done, let the municipality be dismantled.) Prabhupāda: Ki mitiye debe? (What to dismantle?) Lalitā Prasāda: Municipality. Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . municipality . . . (indistinct) Lady: Bhaktader ke prasad debo? (Should we serve prasadam to the devotees now?) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (to Lady) Maa onra bolechen, amra dutor age cole yabo. Prasad peye ektu jiriye . . . (They are saying that before 2:00 pm they will leave. After taking Prasadam little rest . . .) Lady: It's ready. Hoye geche to sob. Bhog uthe geche, ami pata ketechi. Oke bollam dhuye ene dite. (All are done. Offering bhoga is also done, I have cut the leaf, and ask him to wash.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . aj dekhen sei municipality royeche (. . . just see that the municipality is still there 'till this date.) Prabhupāda: Amra prasad peye ni. (Let us take prasadam .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Kato kasto korechi ei gulor jonya, onek kasto korechi ami. (Yes. I have taken a lot of trouble for that, a lot of trouble I have taken.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . let us go . . . call them. Śyāmasundara: We are going now? Prabhupāda: No. Then later. Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, era dujon naki khaben na, phal khaben. (Came to know that two people will not take lunch, they will be taking fruit instead.) Who are two? You will not . . . take lunch? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Some, some of . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh yes there is one boy he has jaundice. One boy. Lalitā Prasāda: Take fruit juice? Śyāmasundara: Only fruits, fruits, that's all. I think he takes. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . that is the difficulty. Śyāmasundara: At this time of year? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. However whatever I got, I have done it. Śyāmasundara: Ah. (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . you go. Śyāmasundara: All right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . break it, these are costly things very costly. Śyāmasundara: About Rs.1000. Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Rs.1000 Lalitā Prasāda: 1000, oh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . bad work there is. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work . . . Śyāmasundara: Where? Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work. Śyāmasundara: Bad work. Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work. Śyāmasundara: Bad work. Lalitā Prasāda: Work Śyāmasundara: Ah. (referring to bad workmanship in the house and advising to beware) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . earn the money. Śyāmasundara: Ah. But on good work, nothing. About one rupee. Lalitā Prasāda: Take it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Onara upare gechen, upar theke neme tarpore . . . (They have gone upstairs, after coming down . . .) Śyāmasundara: Oh, he will, I will. I would like to bring my wife and my child everybody in . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Everybody, who will be everybody? Śyāmasundara: Well maybe? How long it takes by train to come here? How long by train to come here? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. Two hours. Śyāmasundara: Two hours by train from Māyāpur, from Navadvīpa? Lalitā Prasāda: Navadvīpa by train . . . (indistinct) . . . 20 minutes. Śyāmasundara: 20 minutes? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . is five minutes. 10 miles from this place. Śyāmasundara: From here to Navadvīpa? *Lalitā Prasāda: Here to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. 10 miles. *Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa*-nagar? Ah. *Lalitā Prasāda: Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. Kṛṣṇa-nagar to Māyāpur is 8 miles. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . ah. I see in total 18 miles. Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . straight, Māyāpur. Śyāmasundara: Okay. Yeah. *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . not long distance . . . (indistinct) . . . you go to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar, then you go to launch ghat , then you go to Māyāpur . . . *Śyāmasundara: So from here there is train direct to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. Lalitā Prasāda: If you go . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah straight. Lalitā Prasāda: Straight, you make a straight line. Śyāmasundara: Yeah (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Dako. (Call them.) Bengali Devotee: Aschen, onara aahnik korchen, aste pabe na. (They will come, now they are doing prayers, can't come now.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Onara bisram korben. (They will take rest.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ke? (Who?) Bengali Devotee: Guru Mahārāja. Lalitā Prasāda: Kothay? (Where?) Bengali Devotee: Oi ghare. (In that room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon ghare? (Which room?) Bengali Devotee: Parar ghare. (Reading room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Parar ghare royeche? (Are they in the reading room now?) Bengali Devotee: Na, kheye deye tarpor . . . (No, after taking lunch they will . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Prasad pacchen. (Having prasadam .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Maharaj khacche? (Is Mahārāja eating?) Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Okay we will go. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (kīrtana in background) (indistinct) . . . ei, shon na, oder niye ay, oder basiye de, khabar hoye geche . . . (indistinct) . . . bujhli . . . (hey, bring them, make them sit there, food is ready . . . (indistinct) . . . have you understood . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lalitā Prasāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . what you want somebody comes? Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: You want . . . (indistinct) . . . comes? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . bhijiye niye asi. (You will . . . (indistinct) . . . let me bring it after soaking.) Lalitā Prasāda: Alpo kore niye ne, baire, bhijiye na, jal kharap hoye yabe, ekta mage kore niye dhuye dao, mage . . . mage dhuba, ek mag jal niye yaba, bujhle . . . (Take a little bit, outside, don't by putting it in the water, then water will become bad, take in a mug and wash it, mug . . . mug wash in the mug, go with a mug of water, understood . . .) (indistinct Bengali conversation) Bengali Devotee: Apnar khaoa hoye . . . onar khaoar age apnar khaoa hoye yabe . . . hm khub slow . . . (Your lunch will be over before him . . . hmm very slow . . .) (indistinct Bengali conversation) Bengali Devotee: Ei ye, apnar ei album theke onek photo kom kore dite hobe . . . mane album theke . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer. (Have to reduce some photos from your album . . . album . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei . . . ei bengal, photo ta niye aso . . . ki likhbe? . . . (indistinct) . . . lekho. (Please bring the photo of Bengal . . . what will you write? . . . (indistinct) . . . write.) (break) Gurudāsa: Passport? Lalitā Prasāda: Passport . . . in all the world. Gurudāsa: In what year? Lalitā Prasāda: 38. Gurudāsa: 38. Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: When I retired from service. Gurudāsa: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Just I asked my officer to give me a passport. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: It took me only five minutes. Gurudāsa: Five minutes? Lalitā Prasāda: Jawaharlal Nehru gave me a passport. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: He took 5 minutes, I offer you, six, there was six also to get passport and I only got it within two minutes, five minutes. The passport officer there assistant in charge, he was astonished, "How could he issue?" But you're officer is my officer. Gurudāsa: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Here find everywhere, oh. And he came . . . (indistinct) . . . to get the passport to a seat . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Jaya. Lalitā Prasāda: That passport is still with me. Little things . . . (indistinct) . . . I couldn't go very early. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: My health is permitting. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: I present you God's position (laughs) I got ill . . . sick. Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: So I haven't done that. Because my father that Bhaktivinoda told me, "You do not go out of India." Gurudāsa: Oh he told you? Lalitā Prasāda: Still I could go . . . (indistinct) . . . got the passport. Gurudāsa: Oh still that is . . . then you got ill. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes and his wish must be fulfilled. So I got a little. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: I couldn't move. Gurudāsa: Haribol. Lalitā Prasāda: Bhaktivinoda Thakur's wish, how can I disobey? Gurudāsa: Yes. Impossible. Lalitā Prasāda: Though I tried to do it. But. Gurudāsa: Impossible. Lalitā Prasāda: And his wish is on him. Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: And they have come and brought you. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes… Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . I rented, I rented just as . . . but (break) I rented, I rented . . . but in Bengali . . . Gurubandana . . . you don't do read Bengali otherwise I would have shown you . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: He very glad to see me. Number of issues . . . ora ekta kagaj ber korto . . . (they used to publish one paper . . .) issue, issue, second issue . . .ar baki ekti, sob complete ache, oi padya gulo (. . . rest all have complete, that poetry.) Prabhupāda: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Bangla, bangla padya, bhalo laglo? (Bengali, Bengali poetry, did you like it?) Prabhupāda: Besh sundar, ati sundar. (Very nice, excellent.) (break) Lalitā Prasāda: Onek bachor kore, ar noy . . . ei ye Uniso tirish sale, ekattiris sale, bujhlen? (For many years . . . in those days from 1930 or 31, do you know?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ekattiris sale. (Of the year 1931.) Prabhupāda: Ekattiris sal. Onek din age. (1931. Many days ago.) Lalitā Prasāda: Baba bar korto, ei kagaj khan ber korto. Takhan, dada bolle . . . dekhun . . . bolle amar kshati hocche, mejh di ke bollen. Ami bollam, tumi yodi erokom korbe . . . ami ki korbo cup kore lukiye roilum . . . (indistinct) . . . amar kshati hocche. Ami kshati korchi? Dao bandha kore dao . . . (indistinct) . . . elo sob kagaj patra niye . . . ya kichu niye cole gelo. Oi sob rekhe diyeche. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . sobta dini, namtao railo . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhono korto, ami korchi na, pacjan sange nei bole. Ar ami ek bachor ber korechi. Oder noa da bolle, lobhe amar kshati korchi. Ami bollam, ami kshati korlam dadar? Ami bhalo katha bolchi loke . . . kshatita ki korlam? Na loke ar paisa debe na oke. Paisa to ami cai na, yodi kshati hoy, ami kshati korbo na. Paisa . . . ami kshati korbo na. Kaj bandha, noile kaj . . . ajke ami likhle kato jinish beroto . . . (Father used to publish this paper. Then . . . brother said that I am incurring loss, he said this to my middle sister. I said if you say like this . . . I silently hid myself . . . (indistinct) . . . I am incurring loss. Is it me who is causing this loss, then close it . . . . (indistinct) . . . then they came and took away all the papers and documents. All were kept. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . didn't give the ownership, the name is also retained . . . (indistinct) . . . not starting it now as I don't have any companion, because I have no people. I published it for one year. Noa da (one of the elder brothers) said to them that I am causing him monetary loss by my greed. I said, am I causing loss to my elder brother. I was telling good words but people . . . . what loss did I incurred? That no one will pay him again. I didn't want money . . . I will not make a loss. Money . . . will not make any loss. Work stopped, but if I could have been writing then many things could be published today.) Prabhupāda: Ekhan oi amader sei Gosvami Maharaj din `kato caliyechen. (Now that Goswami Mahārāja ran for few days.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Yatai karun dekhun . . . thik yatai koruk, direct tar . . . Srila Bhaktivinod Thakurer mukh theke tar . . . (indistinct) . . . tar bhab bhangi, tar balbar iye . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhen ni. Ekhene . . . ei . . . oi saheb ra esechilo onno khub baro baro, chobi dui*-ek khana chilo na. Sei number, saat numbere, ogulo . . . baki gulo korechi, tin bachor korechi. Ei sob bhanga, dekhun, eikhane sob bhanga kicchu nei, ei darja, jalna parjanta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekta darja chilo na, ekta kori chilo na. Kori kine ene pariyechi. (Whatever you may do, hearing directly from . . . Srila BhaktiVinoda Thakura's mouth of his . . . (indistinct) . . . his emotions and bodily postures . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not seen that. Here . . . in this place . . . once some great Britishers have come and one or two pictures of them were there. All those and the other seven I rescued, did it for three years there. All broken, see, all are broken here, nothing intact, from this door to windows . . . (indistinct) . . . not a single door was there, no frame. I bought and fitted it.) Prabhupāda: Sob niye geche. (All taken away.) Lalitā Prasāda: Egulo sob bhanga . . . (indistinct) . . . chad pore geche, ekhene du manus garta, ek manus du manus garta . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpor ekhene baro, baro gach chilo, sei gach guloke fello erom kore, oi . . . oi beray giye daram kore porlo. Bat gach, Asathya gach. (These are all broken . . . (indistinct) . . . the roof collapsed, here big holes with the depth of about one to two men height . . . (indistinct) . . . then there were big big trees, those trees removed like in this way that, those fall down with a sound over the wall. Banyan tree, Peepal tree.) Prabhupāda: Eto baro gach. (Such big trees.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eto baro gach. Sei chobi . . . kothay ekhon ber korte parbo na . . . (indistinct) . . . ber kore rakhbo ek samay, dekhben kiram gach chilo oi gulo. Eguloy bahu taka kharca hoyeche, ei gulo uddhar korte, mandirke tairi korte. Ekta kac chilo na, kac ekhana chilo na, ekta jalna darja chilo na, sob fak, ekhaneo fak . . . (Such big trees. Picture . . . don't know where it is now . . . will find out sometime later, see yourself what type of trees were those. Huge amount of money spent to renovate and build the temple. Not a single piece of glass was there, nor door and windows, all open spaces here and there . . .) Prabhupāda: Onekdin khali porechilo. (It was abandoned for many days.) Lalitā Prasāda: Saat bachchar. Bagh thakto. (Seven years. Tigers used to stay.) Prabhupāda: Bagh thakto. (Tigers used to stay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ami onek bachchar korechi, kintu parisodh deoar lok chilo na. Apni bolechilen dekhben, amar baro ananda hocchilo, apnara yodi korben didha nei . . . (indistinct) . . . sarthak holo . . . (I worked very hard, but no one was there to reciprocate. I was feeling very glad when you were telling what you see, if you do something here then I have no hesitation . . . (indistinct) . . . would be successful.) Prabhupāda: Sotti, ar era sob dekhbe. (That's true, they will look after.) Lalitā Prasāda: Era yodi bangla sikhe, tahole to hobe. (It will be very good if they can learn Bengali.) Prabhupāda: Bangla sikhche, oi ye Acyutananda . . . (Learning Bengali, that Acyutananda . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Acyut khub sikhche. Acyut khub sikhche. (Acyut learned very nicely, Acyut learned very nicely.) Prabhupāda: Give me water, cold water. Lalitā Prasāda: Cold water. Oh. Hari Das. Hari. (Ah. Hari Das. Harii.) Hari: Aschi. (Coming.) Lalitā Prasāda: Cold water dao, thanda jal. (Give cold water. Cold water.) Śyāmasundara: Cold water? Lalitā Prasāda: Onek din dhore, bujhlen, ami ki korbo? Ami boka lok, cup kore pore thaki, ami . . . (For many days, you see, for many days . . . what should I do, I am a foolish man, just remain seated silently, I . . .) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . oi thik ache. Amaderke odik ta lease diye den . . . (That's appropriate. Just give us a lease for that side . . .) *Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, apni jagater loker eto upokar korchen, ye ami r parlum na, ami khali dui*-ek khan chele rekhechilam . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhaktivinoder katha uni sob guloi bole gelen, r baki yodi kichu thake amar mukhe sikhiyechen tai . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes, you are doing good for all the world, I couldn't refuse, I just kept two or three boys . . . (indistinct) . . . the teaching of Bhaktivinoda all were spread by him (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura), and remain part which were taught me, that . . .) taking notes (laugh) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . bollen tomader keu philosophy porbe. . . . (indistinct) . . . Stever . . . (indistinct) . . . amake dekhate parbe college? . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhalum . . . bollen . . . bollen nah, cheleta kichu sikheche bote, ta ei sampurna bangla ekhono bujhte pareni, kichu sikheche . . . (said who teaches you philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . Steve . . . (indistinct) . . . will you show me once in the college . . . so I showed him . . . then he said the man has learned something for sure but complete Bengali will not yet understand, have learnt something) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Edike kar photo eta? (Whose photo is this, here at this side?) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo amar photo, onek bachor ager, takhon choto chilam mota chilum. Dos bachor, egaro bachor ager . . . panero bachor ager kar photo. Tabe Bhaktivinod Thakurer chobi ei suit case rekhechi . . . (indistinct) . . . kalke . . . (It's my photo, many years ago, then my body was bulky. About ten*-eleven or fifteen years, many years ago. But I kept Bhaktivinoda Tahkura's photo here in this suitcase . . . (indistinct) . . . tomorrow . . .) Gurudāsa: You also photographed that portrait? Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: You also photographed that portrait? Lalitā Prasāda: Fo . . .? Gurudāsa: That famous photo. Lalitā Prasāda: Photo? Gurudāsa: You photograph that one? Lalitā Prasāda: You like photography? Gurudāsa: Acha, that one is famous all around the world. Lalitā Prasāda: All over the world. Gurudāsa: All over the world. Lalitā Prasāda: That photo was framed by me, originally. You saw in the album? Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: That was very photo. Gurudāsa: But this one especially. Yadubara: He has that on the album also. Gurudāsa: It is very famous . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Tinte camera enechilo bidesh theke. Ekta nilo Pradyutma, ar ekta nilo iye . . . Kasim Alir chele. (Received three cameras from foreign. One taken by Pradyutma, another taken by the son of . . . the son of Kasim Ali.) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Lalitā Prasāda: Tinte photographer . . . (indistinct) . . . ekta nile Pradyutma, ekta Kasim Alir chele, Mahindra . . . chele ekta kinle, ar ami ekta kinlum . . . (indistinct) . . . khub first class . . . (indistinct) . . . r sei camera diye onek gulo chobi tulechilum. (Three photographers . . . (indistinct) . . . Pradyutma took one, the son of Kasim Ali, Mahindra . . . son got one, and I got one . . . (indistinct) . . . very good, first class . . . with that camera I took many pictures.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: You can ask Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Prabhupāda? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . yato Kolkatar bhadralok chilo, sob ami . . . (indistinct) . . . niye gechilam, ye baba colegelen, ei amar dada achen . . . (indistinct) . . . collis taka kore bari bhara korlum oi Halsibagane . . . (indistinct) . . . Mayapur theke . . . (indistinct) . . . kole bose . . . (indistinct) . . . gari kore kore loker . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . whoever notable gentleman was there at Kolkata, everyone came . . . (indistinct) . . . took him, father passed away, my elder brother is here . . . (indistinct) . . . rented a house for 40 rupees at Halsibagan. From Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . by sitting on lap . . . (indistinct) . . . everyday people used to take him by their car . . .) Prabhupāda: Oi Mayapure? (At Māyāpur?) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ei Calcuttay, niye giye, sadharan lok, baroloker sathe alap korato. (No, at Calcutta, they used to take. Common people, got to know a few gentlemen.) Prabhupāda: Calcuttay kothay chilen takhon? (Where at Calcutta you used to stay then?) Lalitā Prasāda: Oi Halsibagane . . . bari korechilam bharay, collis taka bhara diye. (At Halsibagan . . . took a house with 40 rupees rent.) Prabhupāda: Konkhanta? (Which area?) Lalitā Prasāda: Halsibagan. Prabhupāda: Halsibagan, hya okhaneto amio gechi. (Halsibagan, Yes. I also used to go there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarpor sekhan theke, oi toiri holo . . . ogulo r deben na, ogulo r deben na, tahole ami r . . . (From there, that was built . . . don't give those things any more, don't give those things, then I will not be . . .) (laughs) Yadubara: Prabhupāda would you like to have a photo with Lalitā Prasāda? Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun esob amader private katha gulo . . . (Please don't keep these private talks of ours . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, na . . . osob katha amra chapbo keno. (No, no . . . we will not publish those talks.) Lalitā Prasāda: Thak na . . . (Let those be . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh apnader bhai bhai er katha, amra keno chapbo? Apnader bhai bhaier se ekta ghanista tar katha. Sekatha alada. (Those are the words between you brothers, why should we publish. Those were the talks between your brothers who were very close to each other. Those words are different.) Lalitā Prasāda: Se na, onya rakam ghanista ta . . . nijer duksha. (Not exactly, another type of closeness . . . my grief.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ye, bhai eromkam korlo na . . . . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Oh my brother you didn't do it . . .) Prabhupāda: Baro bhai ektu cote gelo, choto bhai ektu namra holo. Ei duniyar niyam. (The elder brother became a little angry and the younger brother had to be a little obliged. These are the norms of the whole world.) Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eigulo tader to kono anya katha na. O amra jani. (There's nothing more in this. That we know.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tabe ami Noa da ke tairi kore kore bolehilam sob bhabe . . . . . . (indistinct Bengali) (But I prepared Noa da (elder brother) in many ways . . .) Prabhupāda: Korechilen boleito eto baro holo. (It is because of his service he became so great.) Lalitā Prasāda: Onya bhaigulo kicchu sahayya kare na, ulte amake badha diyeche. (All the other brothers didn't help, rather they prevented me.) Prabhupāda: Orakam hoyechilo boleito, amrao sampakka hoyechilo, kichu seva korchi. (Because it so happened, we also got to have a relationship, rendering some service.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ulte aro, onya bhai bon gulo amake badha diyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . keno karis . . . keno karis? (On the contrary, all other brothers and sisters had opposed me . . . (indistinct) . . . why do you do, why . . . why you do that?) Prabhupāda: Hingsa, bhaiye bhaiye. (Envy amongst brothers.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami bollam na ami thakboi. Ami korbo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (I said, "No I will be there. I will do . . .") Prabhupāda: Huh?. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . kono jinis ami caina. (I don't want anything.) I don't require anything, Ei jonyei ami morechi (laughs), tarpor nije kato boi arambha korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . uni bandha korlen, ami nije arambha korlam (. . . for that reason I got finished (laughs), then I begun to do some books of my own . . . (indistinct) . . . he closed it down, I started my own.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . sit down here. No. Yadubara: I don't think he can move very well. Prabhupāda: No he cannot move, I can move. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Where shall I sit? Yadubara: It would be best if he could turn. I'm not sure if he can do that, and you could sit here. Prabhupāda: I will sit down here. Yadubara: Yeah, you could sit on the chair here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yadubara: And if he can turn a little, I can take the photo from there. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ar eiye apni, amake ekta subidhe dicchen, eo amar ekta bhagyer katha. (And that you are offering me a favour, that is also a good fortune for me.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Niscoi colbe. (Will surely do.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Take candid and portrait, that also. Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yadubara: Lalitā Prasāda, could you look this way? Prabhupāda: Bolche apni oi dikta ceye dekhben ektu. (They are asking you to look that way.) You should always address him Ṭhākura Mahārāja Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They don't know that's why . . . Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oder desheri cal hocche ei. Thakur dada keo nam dhore dake. (This is the norm of their country. They call their grandfathers also by name.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Very nice. Thank you very much. Lalitā Prasāda: Apnara eto kharac korben keno? . . . (indistinct) . . . keno amar jonye kharac korben? (Why have you spent so much money . . . why you spend so much?) Prabhupāda: Apnar bacbar jonye Koti taka kharac korleo, eo kichu noy. (To keep you alive, even spending millions of dollars is not sufficient.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami khub simple. Amar kicchu caina. Amar ekta duksha roibe, bhakti korle na, nam korle na. Naam koro . . . (I am a very simple person. I don't have any demand as such. My only lamentation is that I haven't got Bhakti , not chanted the Name. Chant the Name . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, era sob nam kore. (Yes, all of them chant the Name.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, hya era kore. Era onekshan dhore nam korchilo bose bose. (Yes, yes, they do. They were chanting for a long time sitting there.) Prabhupāda: Nam kore. (They chant.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . se amar mathay, mathay thakbe . . . (indistinct) . . . Kolkatar khabar niyechilem . . . (indistinct) . . . ei Ananda bajare, ei bar. (He is in my head, let Him remain in my head . . . (indistinct) . . . have enquired about Calcutta, this time, in Anada bajar.) Prabhupāda: Sakali bolche, Kolkatate Kirtan hoate Naxalies. (Everyone is saying that because of Kirtan performances at Calcutta, Naxalites) (break) . . . komeche . . . (go to reduce . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes) Prabhupāda: Naxalite amader sange neceche. (Naxalites even danced with us.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ke? (Who?) Prabhupāda: Naxalite. Oiye naxalite sob marche lok ke. (Naxalite. Those naxalites who are killing people.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ora nakshal. (They are all nakshal .) Prabhupāda: Hya, nakshal. (Yes nakshal .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, naxalites. (Yes naxalites.) Prabhupāda: Tara amader sange neceche, prasad peyechilo. (They have danced with us, took prasadam.) Lalitā Prasāda: Badmais, badmais sob. (Criminals, all criminals.) Prabhupāda: Sob badmais . . . (All criminals . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhalo hoye geche. (They become gentleman.) Prabhupāda: Bhalo hoye geche. (Become gentleman.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni khub upakar korlen desher. (You have done a great service to the country.) Prabhupāda: Sakali bolche Kirtan holo bolei theme geche. Sakale bolche. (Everyone is saying that because of the performance of kirtana this has stopped. Everyone is saying.) Lalitā Prasāda: Plague. Prabhupāda: Hya, plague er samay. Takhan ami . . . (Yes, during the time of the plague. Then I was . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Ami ek bachor . . . amar mone ache, ami takhan choto, ami necechi oi Nam Kirtane. (I was then one year old . . . I remember, although I was a kid then, I danced in the Nam kirtana .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ora elo . . . (indistinct) . . . babake bollum, ye baba ora eyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . ami yabo na. (whispers) Woodburn ke bolle tumi egulo karo. Yei galpo guli janento . . . (they came . . . (indistinct) . . . informed father that they have come . . . (indistinct) . . . I will not go. (whispers) and went to tell Woodburn that you do all these things. Are you aware of those incidents . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm, ke . . . (who . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Woodburn . . . mane Governor, Woodburn. (Woodburn . . . means Governor, Woodburn.) Prabhupāda: Accha, Woodburn. (Oh, Woodburn.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Woodburn ke balo giye, tumi yodi plague tarate cao, Hari*-nam na korle yabe na, Hari-nam ano byas . . . (Went and told Woodburn that if you wish to eradicate plague, Hari-nama must be performed, elst it won't go. Perform Hari-nama that's it . . .) Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: The car is ready or not? We shall have to go. Gurudāsa: I think Śyāmasundara is just finishing fixing. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oita khub colche. (That one is running well.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . bangalir mato temon kapor porbe, ekhon kapor porbar emon . . . (they will wear a sari like a Bengali, now they will wear a sari like . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, Meyera sari porche. (Yes, Ladies are wearing saris.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, tai to bolchi . . . (indistinct Bengali) (That's what I am saying . . .) Gurudāsa: Śyāmasundara prabhu. Yadubara: Śyāmasundara how long will it be? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (whisper) segulo sob dekhabo apnake . . . (indistinct) . . . oikhanei ache . . . (indistinct) . . . apnake kichu korte hobe na . . . (indistinct) . . . yodi car piece chay pich o rakhen, ta segulo amar theke yabe buro bayose. Oi gulo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . will show those all to you . . . (indistinct) . . . all are there . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't have to do anything . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you use 4 to 6 pieces, the things will remain, in this old age. Those . . .) *Prabhupāda: Apni ar baire*-taire yan na naki. (Seems that you don't go for outside work any more.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami uthte pari na, ami ekhan theke okhane uthte parina . . . (indistinct) . . . hamaguri diye yete hoy . . . (indistinct Bengali) (I can't get up even, I can't move here to there . . . (indistinct) . . . I am to crawl if I need to move . . .) Yadubara: He says five more minutes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Western . . . press. Yadubara: Na, na. (No, no.) (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Take one or two . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu thanda jal diye aso. (Please bring a little more cold water.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, Oh Hari. (Yes, Oh Hari.) Hari: Eito. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ene dao . . . jal dao . . . amar Hari achena sob pare . . . (Please bring . . . give water . . . my Hari can do everything . . .) (laughs) Prabhupāda: Amar . . . (My . . .) (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Apnar maa, meyeti khub . . . (Your, the mother and daughter are very . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Khub . . . (Very . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki holo re, jal dili ne? (What happened, you haven't given water?) Hari: Hm, dicchi. (Yes, giving.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao, thanda. Sabceye thanda jal niye aso, ene dao . . . mukhdiye khan, mukh diye khan . . . oder alada rakhbe, kicchu hobe na . . . apni or maa ke ektu jal dilen na, more jay yodi. Ektu jal deben na. onek upakar pabe . . . (indistinct) . . . thik katha. (Give, cold. Bring cold water, give here . . . you can touch your lips and drink, touch your lips and drink . . . they have separate water glass, there won't be any problem . . . will you give some water with your hand to his mother, she may die soon. Can't you give little water, she will be greatly benefitted . . . (indistinct) . . . that's correct.) Prabhupāda: Amar kache. (To me.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . banglar meye. (Bengal's daughter.) *Prabhupāda: Amar kache onek sob meye asche. Aj kal to meyeder sob biye hoy na. Ami mone korchi oke head kore tader ke sob siksha debo jonye ekhane anbo. (Many ladies are coming to me. Now*-a-days women don't get married. I am thinking that I will bring those ladies here for training and will make her as head of them.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . den, den pathiye den (. . . you can send.) Prabhupāda: Kimba ekhane yodi bari kori . . . (Or, if we can make a building here . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eto bhaloi hoy, ekhane thakbe. Takhan gaan bajna colbe . . . ananda hobe, Hari nama colbe . . . (indistinct Bengali) (It will be good, they can stay. Bhajan Kirtan will happen . . . all will be happy, Hari nama will be also chanted . . .) Prabhupāda: Ekta bari kore, oke head kore rekhe debo. (Will make a building and will keep her as head.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob katha sunbe . . . (indistinct) . . . beche thakle hoy, bayos holo besh. (She will abide by your words . . . (indistinct) . . . hope she will be alive, she has become old.) Prabhupāda: Beshi bayos to noy. (Not that old.) *Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) Bayes bahanna*-tippanna. (Age 52 to 53.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Lalitā Prasāda: Bayos hoyeche, rakhbar bayos nei ar, tabe nijer . . .(indistinct) . . . ciro yaouban to, oi jonya cehara ta . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (She has become old, she is no longer young . . .) (indistinct) . . . yakhan maa eschilen . . . (indistinct) (. . . then when mother came . . .) (laughs) Prabhupāda: Ta apnar bhai der madhye dujoni brahmacari ar na aro sob? (So amongst your brother's two are brahmacari or others as well?) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob na . . . (indistinct) . . . sej dar duti chele, bor dar . . . (Not all . . . (indistinct) . . . but one of my elder brother's two sons, and eldest brother's . . .) Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja and Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura both are from the very beginning strict brahmacārīs . Gurudāsa: Ohh. Śyāmasundara: (outside) Try it now. Lalitā Prasāda: From the age of six I was disgusted with meeting females. Gurudāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: That, that means from the past life you were a . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, past life chilem. Apnake bolchi bolben na) . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes, In a past life I was. Don't tell that one . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) . . . (indistinct) . . . cheleke niye asbi, niye elo . . . dam diye kine niye elo . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . bollo, amar gharta khule de . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . you bring your son, so he was brought . . . purchased with a price . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . told to open my room . . .) Prabhupāda: Kata diner janya . . . (For how many days . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Chay bachchar pare, chay bachchar. (Six years, after six years.) Prabhupāda: Chay bachchar. (Six years.) *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ye din gelen, sedin niye gelen . . . tei*-se March . . . (the day he went on that day only he took away . . . 23rd March . . .) Prabhupāda: Sei ghar tay apni cabi diye rekhechen. (That room you have kept locked.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sei ghare, cabi diye, ami yai ni . . . amar ek bhaipo ke diyechilum. Sei bhaipo ghar tay puja kore, amader bother korar kichu nei, kintu majhe majhe sei ghure . . . (indistinct) . . . ekdin bodh hoy giyechilo . . . dekhe ese . . . (indistinct) . . . ar se baro ghar . . . sekhane pancas jan lok easily boste parbe. (That room, after locking, I haven't gone . . . had given the keys to one of my nephews. He used that room for puja room, never bothered to intimate us. . . . (indistinct) . . . most probably they went there one day to see . . . (indistinct) . . . it's a big room . . . about 50 people can sit easily.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Lalitā Prasāda: Chabbis feet lamba, ar egaro feet caora. (26 feet long and 11 feet wide.) Prabhupāda: Khub baro ghar. (Very big room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei gharta maa diye gelo, uni yaoar pore . . . (indistinct) . . . kono din bhara cai ni . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Mother gave that room, after her passing . . . (indistinct) . . . we never asked for rent . . .) Prabhupāda: Ar or ghar to ekta ache. (And he has another room for him.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Prabhupāda: Apnar dadar, tar oto ekta ghar ache. (Your elder brother, he also has a room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tar choto ghar chilo, ektalay, sei ghare . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (He had a small room, on the first floor, in that room . . .) Prabhupāda: Besh korecho. (You have done good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sei onek yukti kore korechi . . . (indistinct) . . . ki korbo. Ei Mayapure . . . (indistinct) . . . map diye matir thakur yara duti ache ar duti kather thakur ache. Oi Bishnu Prya ar Lakshmi Prya. Lakshmi Prya matir thakur. Ar ekti . . . (indistinct) . . . ar Bishnu Prya kather. Lakshmi Prya . . . (indistinct) . . . matir. Erpor British ra eschilo . . . (indistinct) . . . Roy Bahadur . . . district engineer . . . (indistinct) . . . Sarkar. Yar bhai Kishori Sarkar chilo na. Se iyer jamai . . . Sirish Babu . . . (indistinct) . . .Sirish Babuder bhagni pati . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Did it after a lot of thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . what else can I do . . . (indistinct) . . . in Māyāpur . . . two Deities made of clay and two of wood. Bishnu Priya and Lakshmi Priya. Lakshmi Priya is made of clay. Another one . . . (indistinct) . . . and Bishnu Priya is of wood. Lakshmi Priya . . . is of clay. Britishers came once . . . Roy Bahadur . . . district engineer . . . Sarkar. Whose brother was Kishori Sarkar. He was the brother in law of Sirish Babu . . . the brother in law of Sirish Babu's family . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . se ar oi dujone, Mayapur amra . . . (indistinct) . . .chotobela amra sakole . . . (indistinct) . . . ta Sirish Babu ke yakhani kolakatay. . . . amar kono bhaike yodi guardian kore dile ami doure . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . he and other two, we together in Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . we were in our childhood then . . . (indistinct) . . . Sirish Babu, whenever he used to visit Calcutta . . . as a guardian for my brother's I used to rush . . .) Prabhupāda: Finished? Śyāmasundara: No. I need one small piece of wire. I wondered . . . Prabhupāda: Accha ektu tar ache? (Do you have a small piece of wire?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki tar? (What type of wire?) Bengali Devotee: Loha? (Iron wire?) Prabhupāda: Ye kono tar. (Any type of wire.) Śyāmasundara: Electric wire about this long. Lalitā Prasāda: (Bengali conversations with Prabhupāda and others) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? Ki? Ki? (What? What? What?) Bengali Devotee: Na, electric tar. (No, electric wire.) Lalitā Prasāda: Electric caire? (Asking for electric wire.) Bengali Devotee: Din. (Give this.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei dao. (Give, give it here.) Prabhupāda: Dao, dao. (Give, give.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao. Kete dao na okhan theke. (Give. Just cut it from here.) Bengali Devotee: Eito amar ghare ache. (I have in my room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao. Kete dao. Na hole darkar . . . (indistinct) . . . kete dao. Ek colour. Ami sob rakhi, (Give. Cut it and give. If required . . . (indistinct) . . . cut it and give. Single color. I keep almost everything,) I keep everything. . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Apnar abhab ki. (You have no scarcity.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami . . . sob, every . . . kon dike janina balun. (I . . . all, every . . . tell me something of which I don't have any idea about.) Śyāmasundara: (laughs) He's got everything. Lalitā Prasāda: Oi tare hobe? (Will that wire do?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes of course). Lalitā Prasāda: Yadi mota tar darkar hoy tao pabe. (If some thick wire is needed that too can be arranged.) Bengali Devotee: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: Amar, amar ei buro bayose . . . (My, in my old age . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha, duto rasta ache ki? Ekta rasta ei rasta ta to bhal na. Ei kaca rasta ta. (Are there two routes? In one route the roads are not good. It is unconstructed clay road.) Bengali Devotee: Konta? (Which one?) Prabhupāda: Amra eschilam ei kaca rasta diye. Ar kono rasta ache? Ekjan bollo ye, odik diye paka rasta. (We came by that unconstructed road. Is there any other route? Someone said that there is one asphalt road on that side.) Bengali Devotee: Se anek ghur hobe. (It will be a longer route.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, shunun. Ekhen theke Phule. (No, listen please. From here to Phule.) Prabhupāda: Phulia hya, Phule. (Phulia yes, Phule.) Lalitā Prasāda: Paka rasta. (Asphalt road.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekbare mise yabe. (Directly it will merge.) Prabhupāda: Seiti to bhalo hoy. (That will be better.) Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, apni eidike . . . (indistinct) . . . bridge paben. (Well, from here you will get . . . (indistinct) . . . bridge.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Ta apnar adh ganta beshi lagbe. Mile dash . . . bridge diye kuri minute lagbe. (That will take more than half an hour. After ten miles . . . by the bridge it will take 20 minutes.) Prabhupāda: Mile dasher. (About ten miles.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ta hok. Kintu paka rasta diye yabo. (Let it be but we will go by the asphalt road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Paka rasta diye yabe . . . apnake bolchi . . . oi libraryr pas diye beriye, oikhane giye, saman cole yabe, oi gate ta. (Go by asphalt road . . . I will tell you . . . go out beside the library, from there straight away it goes, that gate.) Prabhupāda: (to Bengali devotee) Tumi ektu baba ektu egiye debe . . . (You please physically guide us a little . . .) . Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, tui noy ektu egiye diye ay . . . (Well, you please go with them a little distance.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ektu egiye diye eso. (Yes, please come with us a little.) Lalitā Prasāda: Gate paryanta egiye diye ay. (Go with them up to the gate.) Bengali Devotee: Thik ache. (Okay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Gate par hoye gele, gari par hote dekhle . . . ebar gari par hole, tui bari cole asbi. Ar ese amake khabar dibi 'ora cole gelo', Hari re. Accha, oi korbe. Ei rasta diye yabe. (After crossing the gate, if you see a car has crossed . . . after the car has crossed, then you return. And after returning, give me news that, "They have gone." Hari, did you understand? Okay, he will do so. They will go by this route.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ami bolechi, Phulia diye. (Yes, I have said, via Phulia.) Lalitā Prasāda: Phulia yan, Phuliar ye gate ta ache . . . (Go to Phulia, the gate is there at Phulia . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . Shantipur. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, Shantipur diye . . . (indistinct) . . . ek bare Calcutta. (No, not from Shantipur . . . (indistinct) . . . straight to Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Na, Kolkata to yabo na. (We will not go to Calcutta.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kothay? (Where?) Prabhupāda: Amra ekhon Mayapure yabo. (We will go to Māyāpur now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Phulia diye ghure yaben. (Oh, you will go via Phulia then.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Phulia diye Shantipur diye. (Yes. Via Phulia and Shantipur.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khub bhalo hobe . . . (indistinct) . . . apni to egiye yaben. (It will be very good . . . (indistinct) . . . you are going ahead.) Prabhupāda: Hya, sei to. (Yes, that's what.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apnara keno ei rasta diye eschen . . . (Why have you come through this road . . .) Prabhupāda: Janina. (Not aware.) Lalitā Prasāda: Three miles kom ache. (You would have traveled three miles less.) Three, could have saved three miles, by coming direct from the Phulia. Paka road . . . pakka road (. . . Asphalt road . . .) Prabhupāda: Se to janena. (That they don't know.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tumi rasta ta ektu dekhiye dao Phulia diye. (You please show us up to the road, through Phulia.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Here is Phulia, here is Shantipur, here is Kṛṣṇa*-nagar . . . (indistinct) You have come here. Prabhupāda: Here, here. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: There you took turn and you come here . . . (indistinct) . . . you are come two, two, two or three mile saved, you could have easily saved. Prabhupāda: And road is also nice. 10 miles. Prabhupāda: And road also nice. Lalitā Prasāda: Road is nice. Lalitā Prasāda: Kacca road, ekhono pakka hoy ni. Amader, amader . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . unconstructed road, asphalting not yet done. Our, our . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekhono . . . (indistinct) . . . (Until now . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: Rasta ar kare ni. (Asphalting not done.) Lalitā Prasāda: Rasta r hoyni . . . ei Nineteen thirty sevene . . . yakhan iye eschilo . . . Anderson . . . takhan se bollo ami paka korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . ajo paka holo na, ei to Baruipur road . . . (indistinct) . . . ei road. (Have not laid asphalt . . . in 1937 . . . when he came . . . Anderson . . . he told me that I will construct the asphalt road . . . but until date it is not done, this Baruipur road . . . . (indistinct) . . . this road.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Yak, apni . . . tahole apni Nabadwipi yaben. (Whatever, you are here . . . that means you go up to Nabadwip only.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Yes, along with. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, tahole . . . (indistinct) . . . Ganga nadite . . . (indistinct) (Oh, then . . . (indistinct) . . . Ganges . . .) Prabhupāda: Ajke yabo na, kal yabo. (I will not go today, tomorrow I will.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya . . . (Yes . . .) (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Eder ghuriye niye ya to (You please go with them) . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Tahole to ektu dur hoye yay. (Then it will be quite far.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Phulia hoye aschilen. (You came via Phulia.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Phulia hoyei asa uchit, yanta na. (Yes, you had to come via Phulia, I did not know . . .) Bengali Devotee: Ekebare metalic . . . (Then metallic . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Phulia, Phulia . . . Phulia gate. Oi gate . . . (indistinct) . . . sei gater oikhane dhuke porlo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar apni ekhan diye yaben. (That gate . . . (indistinct) . . . enter near that gate . . . (indistinct) . . . and you go from here. Prabhupāda: Oh . . . jana nei to . . . (Oh . . . were not known . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni, apni Mayapur yaben? (You, will you go to Māyāpur?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: 1 hour lagbe. 15 miles. Katakshan, car minute, 1 hour. Ek ghantay pauche yaben. Apni namchilen kothay? (It will take about 1 hour. 15 miles. How long, 4 minutes, 1 hour. You will reach by 1 hour. Where will you stay?) Prabhupāda: Amra jayga kinechi. (We have purchased land.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon jayga? (Which place?) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . (That . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Na, na, na. (No, no, no.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole? (Then?) Prabhupāda: Amader Chaitanya . . . Yog pith ache na. (Our Caitanya . . . Yogapitha is there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Okhan theke der mile. (1.5 miles from there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Mane, amader Math er aspase. (Then, adjacent to our Matha.) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . between. Madhav Maharajer ar amader Yogpith . . . (That . . . between. Madhav Mahārāja's and our Yogapitha . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Madhav Maharajer . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Madav Mahārāja's . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, ato dure yete hoy na. Thik Yogpither khanik ta pore. (No, not that far. Just at a little distance from Yogapitha.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ei side . . . (this side . . .) Prabhupāda: Ei side. Ei side Madhav Maharajer parei amra . . . On this side. Madhav Mahārāja's Gaudiya Math is on this side. Lalitā Prasāda: Madhav Maharajer oi jayga diye par hon, oi khan diye par hon. (You cross over from Madhav Mahārāja's place, do you cross over from there?) Prabhupāda: Par hoi amra to edik diye yai. (We cross over from this side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon dik diye? (From which side?) Bengali Devotee: Bagulia hoye. (Via Bagulia.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bagulia hoye yan? Bridge er opor diye? (You go via Bagulia? Above the bridge?) Bengali Devotee: Na. (No.) direct. Prabhupāda: Direct. Lalitā Prasāda: Bridge? (Over the bridge?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole . . . (indistinct) . . . na. (Then not via . . . (indistinct) . . . no.) Prabhupāda: Na, na. (No, no.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh. Tahole to . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Then you go . . .) Prabhupāda: Par hote gele to . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (If you want to cross over then . . .) Bengali Devotee: Hya . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Yes . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh. Tai janye . . . (indistinct) . . . Mayapure. (Oh. That's why . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāpur.) *Bengali Devotee: Mayapur bod hoy tin*-car mile. (Māyāpur is probably 3 to 4 miles.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Car mile. Pakka. Ami hete gechi kato bar. Oi sandhya kaler dike yete hobe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes. 4 miles. Confirm. So many times I have gone by walking. You have to go in the evening if you go by walking . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Jagannath mandir ache. (Jagannatha temple is there.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ekhon ki hoyeche janina. Aj tin bachor yai ni ar dekhini . . . (don't know what the situation is now. I have not gone for three years, I have not seen.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) . . . Kanju ya byabhar kare (the way Kanju behaves) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Na hajam hobe na kintu. Niyeche hajam hobe na. Hajam hocche na. Sob thak kore felche. Sob nasta korche. (Taken but won't be able to digest. They have taken but will not be able to maintain. Digestion is not happening. They are making everything faulty. Destroying everything.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Maha visaya buddhi. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . sunechen to? (. . . have you heard that?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Bhaiyer sathe anyay, janen to? . . . (indistinct) . . . bhai ta. (He cheated on his brother, do you know about this? . . . (indistinct) . . . that brother.) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Badmais, janen na. (Don't you know his mischief?) . . . (indistinct) . . . or ye bou ta chilo . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (he had a wife . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . bou take nasta korlo (spoiled the wife) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya. Sunchi. (Yes. I heard.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarpore, o abar . . . (indistinct) . . . meye ke biye kore niye esche . . . (indistinct) . . . biye kori . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . chele barrister . . . (Then he again married . . . (indistinct) . . . daughter and come . . . (indistinct) . . . let me marry you . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). . . . (indistinct) . . . the son is barrister . . .) Prabhupāda: Osob matlab kore barrister, ukil koreche, eisob hat korbar janya. (They have made them barrister, lawyer with a gameplan to capture all of them in their control.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kato taka eikhan theke curi koreche, thakurer gayna curi kore, Mayapurer theke . . . (indistinct) . . . janen apni. . . . (indistinct) . . . Gaudiya Math . . . curi koreche. Kichu gayna bouer kache chilo, ache ekhon. Ar dui laksha taka aro curi kore jami bari korechilo . . . (indistinct) . . .ukil ra case korechilo. (Stole lots of money, the ornament of the Deities, from Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . do you know? . . . (indistinct) . . . Gaudiya Math . . . stole from there. Ornaments were with the wife, it is still there. He stole two lakhs more and made some land and properties . . . (indistinct) . . . lawyers have filed a case.) Prabhupāda: So let us go. Tahole amra uthi. (We are leaving now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Se ar bole ki korbo, osob baje katha to (What is the benefit of saying, those are all dirty words . . .). . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Or gun sob jani ami . . . (I know all his qualities quite well . . .) so. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, gharer katha sobi ami jani. (I know all the stories of our family.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami boli na. Apnake bolte pari, onya ke na. Era bojhen na bole bollam egulo. Na hole boltum na. (I won't reveal it. I can tell you only, not to others. Because these people (foreign devotees) will not be able to understand, that's why I could tell you. Otherwise I would not have told.) (laughs) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei, maa . . . maa ke balo era cole yabe. Ar maa ke khabar dao. (Hey, tell your mother they are going to leave. Inform your mother.) Bengali Devotee: Dicchi. (Okay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, maa ke balo. (Yes, tell mother once.) Prabhupāda: Where is Bhavānanda? Yadubara: He is sleeping. Lalitā Prasāda: Apni . . . (You . . .) Yadubara: I think he is a little bit sick. Lalitā Prasāda: Ami maa ke bolechi, yakhani era asbe, khub yanta korbe. O sob nijei kare. Ar amar katha sune, aro . . . (I have told my mother that whenever these people will come, she should take good care of you all. She does everything. Now after hearing me, she will do more . . .) Bengali Devotee: Onara berobe. (They will leave.) Lalitā Prasāda: Thik ache . . . khabar holo ajke? (Alright . . . was the food proper today?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Khabar, kheye tustu holo? (The food, are you satisfied after eating?) Bengali Devotee: Khub kheyechi. (We have taken too much.) Prabhupāda: Hya, khub kheyechi, khub bhalo. (Yes taken too much, very good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhagavaner payes to korte bollum, ke khabe na, tai payes korechi. (I was told to prepare sweet rice for the Lord, if anyone would like it. So the sweet rice was made.) Prabhupāda: Sob jinis eto sundar hoyeche. (Each and every item was very nice.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo Govinda bhoga cal. (Those were Govinda bhog rice.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo Govinda bhoga cal. (They were Govinda bhoga rice.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Govinda bhoga cal. (Yes, Govinda bhoga rice.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oigulo Murshidabad theke aniyechi. (I brought it from Murshidabad.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Murshidabad theke aniyechi (I have brought it from Murshidabad . . .). . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Murshidabad. Lalitā Prasāda: Sekhan theke aniyechi. (I have brought from there.) Prabhupāda: Murshidabad. (break) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . eke bollam, onek . . . (I told him, many) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . na purana lok to . . . (an old fellow here.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun babar ya hater lekha, khamer pase lukono chilo . . . (indistinct) . . . asche. (See, the handwriting of my father was hidden in an envelope . . . (indistinct) . . . came here.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . sei katha guloi amar asche (saying the same thing) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhechi ami. (I have seen.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Dekhun bhagavaner iccha sob, hobe ekdin . . . (Just see, everything is the will of the Lord, everything will happen on that day) . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Apnake ar ekta katha bolbo? (Should I tell you something?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (continue whispering) . . . (indistinct) . . . ami Kesta ke cai ne, Radha ke cai ne . . . ami cai Radha Krsner jiboner miloner ye lila ta . . . (I don't want Kṛṣṇa, nor do I want Radha . . . I want that the pastime of Radha Kṛṣṇa's meeting . . . this pastime . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . darkar. (. . . that is required.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Radharani . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Yakhani (Whenever) (whispers) . . . (indistinct) . . . amar anurodh (. . . my request.) Prabhupāda: Achha . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) . . . ami yat dur chance peyechi . . . (in so far that I got a chance . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dui jayga yabe . . . (will go in two places.) Bengali Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Han. (Yes.) . . . (indistinct) (break) (end) Conversation -- April 17, 1972, Auckland Śyāmasundara: (introducing recording) Lecture in Prabhupāda's room. Confidential talks with his devotees on the evening of April 17th, 1972, in Auckland, New Zealand. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just find out . . . (indistinct) . . . talks . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to . . . (indistinct) Hanumān: They will travel back and forth. They will travel back and . . . they will stand. Now they are building huge spaceships, will be like a city, and they will install a city there, of spaceships, so many big, like a city, and then there will be . . . there will be little spaceship going back and forth. Prabhupāda: Utopian. (laughter) Utopian. Hanumān: But they still, they . . . they said that there was . . . there was something like that now. One was leaving this morning five o’clock to go there on the moon. One after another was leaving this morning to go there. Prabhupāda: That they have gone many times. It is not new thing. But they cannot stay there. They come back. Hanumān: They cannot stay here, either, very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hanumān: They cannot stay here very long, either. Prabhupāda: Still, they can stay here at least. But there it is . . . (indistinct) . . . so how they can live there? Hanumān: Well, they will bring everything from here, there. and then, then they can live there. (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: First of all to go there, two million miles away? Śyāmasundara: It is near nine, nine million miles. Prabhupāda: Nine million. So the gasoline taken from here nine million to come back. That is the problem. Hanumān: It is not exactly gasoline; it is solid. It is solid gasoline, Prabhupāda. It is solid, a kind of . . . very chemical . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Hanumān: . . . it is not exactly the same kind of chemical. And for a while also the Sputnik, they worked with the . . . the those . . . (indistinct) . . . in other words, they . . . Prabhupāda: So why the astronauts are taking so much trouble? Why don't they stay? And they do not take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to home? (laughter) What is the profit by doing such business, by bringing petrol from moon planet and use it here and drive motorcar? Why they are taking so much trouble? Hanumān: Because they are rascals. (laughter) Indian Guest: One more thing Swamiji . . . they say why there is no living entities, because if there are any living entities then there would be some changes on the surface of the moon. Because whenever there is the living entities, there would be something there, actively, and so the actual surface of the moon would be changed. But they don't see any changes there, if there is animals. They would do some kind of activities . . . Prabhupāda: There is no trees or . . . (indistinct) Indian Guest: Only a rock, plain rock. Prabhupāda: But here, so far we have already seen it, rock is reserve of living entities. Indian Guest: Yes. Hanumān: They say they have heard strange noise. Astronauts who go there, they say that they have heard very strange noise. Prabhupāda: From where the noise comes? Hanumān: They don't know, but they say it is full of noises, many kinds of noises. Indian Guest: They don't know what is the other half of the moon. We only have seen the half moon, but we cannot see the other side of the moon, and they cannot go there because it is completely dark there. It is completely dark there. Prabhupāda: Dark? Indian Guest: Dark, yes. There is no sunshine at all. Sunshine is only for one half of the moon. That we see from earth. And then that half remains, and that half is facing the sun all the time, while other half is completely out of sunshine. Prabhupāda: So what is this traveling light? Indian Guest: On the moon there is half… Prabhupāda: It is half, but what is . . . (indistinct)? Indian Guest: It is sunshine. Prabhupāda: Sunshine, that it is all right. But what is there in the moonshine? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that sunshine? That is not ordinary dust, because in ordinary dust, if there is sunshine it does not reflect. Indian Guest: No it does not. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Dust? Indian Guest: Yes, because they can see moonshine as dust from shining from the moon. Hanumān: Then they consider… when you are on the planet moon, they take a picture of the planet earth, and it is just like the moon. From here the moon looks just like the earth looks from the moon. Prabhupāda: Then the moonlight is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Indian Guest: They do . . . yes . . . (indistinct) . . . they can actually see . . . they can see Mars from here. Hanumān: They take picture . . . (indistinct) Indian Guest: Wherever they come from, suppose there is one flag, flag port. And if there is one . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see it. Similarly, the whole sky is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, but just the other part is dark, now how it can remain dark if the shining from the earth is going there? Indian Guest: Now what happens is that suppose there is a moon, and I mean to say there is sun, and the moon is going like that, see? So that is how it remains in light all the time. And the other half, it remains out of sunshine all the time. Prabhupāda: Every planet is rotating. Indian Guest: But moon is rotating in such a way that the half remains in sunshine; the other remains in dark all the time. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Indian Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Rotating means it must turn. Because sunshine is very great, and all other planets they are very small. So as soon as it is rotating, it must come to be face of the sunshine. Indian Guest: Because there are two reasons. There are two forces to the moon: one from the earth and the other from the sun. These two forces keep the moon in such a way that the half, only one half remains facing the sun, and the other half remains in the dark. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I don't believe all this nonsense. (laughter) This is unnatural. Every planet is rotating that is called orbit . . . (indistinct) . . . so how this moon can be different from other planets? Every planet is in the outer space. They have no support. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . it is rotating. So how the moon will be? Even sun is rotating. So what this moon has got that it has got different method? So everything to me, actually, it appears to be . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have not gone to the other side. Why? Why this is? Indian Guest: No. Darkness prevails. It is dark there, completely dark. Prabhupāda: So that means that part never comes to the sunshine? Indian Guest: No. Prabhupāda: So that is impractical. Sun is also rotating. So, sun also by rotating, it does not light that part? This is moon; it is not rotating. But sun is rotating, so why it does not shine the other part? Indian Guest: The sun is rotating with moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian Guest: Sun is rotating with moon . . . (indistinct) . . . light. Prabhupāda: The sun is rotating with all the planets? Indian Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: All the planets. Indian Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is another. The whole planetary system is . . . Indian Guest: Is rotating, yes. Prabhupāda: The center is the polestar. Indian Guest: That's it. Prabhupāda: So that is another rotating. Indian Guest: Yes. The moon is rotating around earth. But again, earth is rotating around the sun. So sun and moon are in . . . more than earth, they are both rotating around the sun, but again moon is rotating around earth too. And this moon, earth is rotating around sun. Prabhupāda: There are many other planets, they're also rotating. Indian Guest: Oh, yes. They are all rotating. Prabhupāda: All rotating. Moon is only small. Actually smaller than the earth. Indian Guest: No, no . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So you can go on speculating, but so far we are concerned—it is coming from śāstra —moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. The residents of that planet, they're all demigods. Indian Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So the demigods means they have got very, very long duration of life. They are more intelligent; their standard of living is so much better. So these things we have got information. If they describe the moon planet like that, it is very difficult to follow. Indian Guest: So this will happen sometimes, that, Swāmījī, that description in the śāstra and the reality, they . . . (indistinct) . . . what sometimes asks, and what we believe from the śāstra , is a contradiction to them. Prabhupāda: Contradictment to them, but we don't contradict. We take it as it is. And their contradiction has not proved their theory. They are talking about planets, so many things like that . . . (indistinct) . . . so it is very difficult to believe. Woman devotee: There was one program on television where they were presenting the theory of the scientists, and it was showing how the theories that they have on outer space every ten or twelve years are changing completely. And the whole program was a scientific program. So this is what you believe . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore they are nonsense. Woman devotee: They all contradicted each other, every one. Prabhupāda: Just see. Therefore how can we teach? If it changes, you cannot teach them. Then what is the value of their knowledge? Indian Guest: Oh, yes. It is changing all the time. They say that sun is rotating because . . . (indistinct) . . . all the time. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Indian Guest: That's a fact. Is it in śāstra , Swāmī? Prabhupāda: Everything is clear, will become clear. Indian Guest: Is it that śāstra somewhere? Prabhupāda: Because everything comes as a seed, then it becomes developed. That is the way of material things. Hanumān: So this planet also, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hanumān: It came out of a seed, and then it grows with all the . . . oh. Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Eight million. Hanumān: And this evolution process, is it different living entity among the 8,400,000 species who came, and gradually, until men came? Or man was always here? Prabhupāda: Man was always here. Hanumān: Man was always on this planet. Prabhupāda: May not be in this planet, but there was always. Because just like in New Zealand, there was no men . . . (indistinct) . . . the Europeans came later on. So it was not so full of life, but there was a class of men. All others, animals, were there, trees were there. Indian Guest: But so many . . . (indistinct) . . . have a high temperature of fifty million centigrade, and it does not remain in solid or liquid form. It becomes a gas, a vapor, completely. Now how . . .? Prabhupāda: Therefore gaseous body. Indian Guest: Gaseous body. That is what I mean; there must be some gaseous body. *Hanumān: And the scientists, they also say that in twenty*-five years from now, whatever they contrive to do they will not be able to feed all the people of this planet. They can try to . . . Prabhupāda: At the end of it, everything has changed; therefore they can speak. Hanumān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So they have got this loophole. They can speak any nonsense. They will adjust, "Oh, it has changed." That's all. Woman devotee: One time they believed that the world was flat. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: And the man was hanged who said it is round. That was their perfect knowledge. So we have to believe such perfect knowledge. When they say it has changed . . . their position. We cannot accept such knowledge. It changes every twenty*-five years. (break) But we see . . . (break) Indian Guest: . . . moon does not have its own light. It is a reflection of sunlight. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . and in the Bhagavad*-gītā it states, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī ( BG 10.21). Hanumān: Hmm, yes. Prabhupāda: So this moon planet is one of the stars, illuminated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are getting moonlight at night, but if the earth is also reflecting like that, what is the use of moonlight? Indian Guest: But earth is reflected on moonlight. But one of the reason is that the sky is pure dark region, but if any objects come in the sky, and if moonlight falls on that object, then you can see the object, and that is due to the reflection of light that we get from that object. You see, what happens, if moonlight does not fall on the sun, then you wouldn't be able to see the sun at all. If sunlight doesn't fall on the sun, then we would not be able to see sun at all. Similarly, if moonlight or sunlight does not fall on the earth, then they would not be able to see earth from the sun . . . earth from the moon. (break) Prabhupāda: We have to leave all this material world. Indian Guest: This is right. Prabhupāda: We are not going to take birth again in this material world, either in the moon planet or sun planet, or this planet, or that, within this universe. Not only this universe—there are millions of universes. Nowhere we're going to come. We are not interested. (laughs) Indian Guest: No. No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You see? So we're going to the spiritual world to have our eternal, blissful knowledge and life. That is our program. So what we will do with this teeny information of moon planet, this planet, that planet? We have got already some information, we are satisfied. That is all. But we're not going there. We are not interested. Why shall we go there? Indian Guest: No. Śyāmasundara: Are you talking about the three astronauts on their way there now? Yes. Hanumān: We don't want any petrol. We don't want to give our lives for some petrol. Prabhupāda: Why shall I find out petrol, when my petrol will be finished and I'll have to take a body like a dog or a cat? (laughter) They have no such knowledge. Hanumān: No, they don't. Prabhupāda: So finding out the petrol . . . when his personal petrol will be finished, he will have to accept the body of a dog. That's all. What he is going to do? First of all try to fill up your own personal petrol. Their personal petrol, it is sure to finish. That they don't care. So after finishing the personal petrol, if he is going to accept the body of a dog, then what is the use of finding petrol in moon planet? What is the answer for this, that how they are going to stop the petrol, which is going to finish after ten years or fifteen years? Where is the provision? Where is the atomic energy or petrol to keep yourself, to find out petrol in the moon planet? Where is that problem solved? By the time you find out petrol in moon planet, your petrol will be finished. (laughter) Then what you will do? Just see? Foolish attempt. Śyāmasundara: There is no possibility of petrol on the moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Moon planet there cannot be petrol. Prabhupāda: Unless, suppose they're making research, find out petrol on the moon planet. But say it takes forty to fifty years: by that time your personal petrol will be finished. You cannot move; you cannot stop all nonsense. Then what you will do? So long you have got petrol, you are talking all nonsense as scientist. But when this petrol will be finished, you will no longer be able to talk even, what to speak of finding out petrol in moon planet. Where is that problem is solved? They are not very much interested in this subject matter. Eh? After all, your petrol is limited. Suppose you can live fifty or sixty years—upmost hundred years. But the scientist, when his petrol is finished, he is kicked out on the street, many, many scientist. So why do they not find out petrol for himself, so that he may continue the research work? So why they're lacking this knowledge? What do you say? (break) Hanumān: (indistinct) . . . they have a . . . they have a capsule where they put people who die from a sickness, and they take all the blood out, and they put some chemical, and they say that maybe in fifty or twenty or one hundred years from now, when they will have find the medicine, they will wake them up. Prabhupāda: That is in future. That is in future. Hanumān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're trying to keep the person. Hanumān: They are trying to keep the body conserved in a machine for the time being. They pay one million dollars to be put in that machine, and the machine all day long takes all this chemical out and then of their body. So maybe in fifty years they will be able to wake them up to cure the disease that killed them. Śyāmasundara: They are frozen, too, aren’t they? Hanumān: Frozen. They are frozen. They call it frozen. Śyāmasundara: Freeze their bodies. Hanumān: And great scientists, great doctors, they do that. They pay one million dollars to go in that machine in the hope that one day they will be able to come back and enjoy. Prabhupāda: Do you want to go? (laughter) Hanumān: No. I want to serve your lotus feet. Prabhupāda: *Just like when a person becomes ghostly*-haunted, he talks all nonsense. Similarly, one who is under the influence of māyā , he also talks. So this machine has proved successful even for a single man or children? Indian Guest: Not yet. Hanumān: They haven't wakened anyone up now. (laughter) They're all still in the machine. (laughter) In five years . . . Woman devotee: So that all the people who paid the money will be dead also. Prabhupāda: People are paying money and going to the machine? Hanumān: One million dollars. Indian Guest: To be in the machine. Prabhupāda: To make experiment? Hanumān: No, to be . . . if you want the chance to be woken up one day, you have to have one million dollars to maintain the machine for the time you know, until they find to wake you up. Prabhupāda: So many men have gone, and they have died? Hanumān: Yes. Yes, many men. Prabhupāda: So after died, then what is the profit? *Śyāmasundara: No, they volunteer to be killed. They volunteer to be killed in a way, because they put them to sleep, then they withdraw all the blood from their veins and inject some chemicals, and then they freeze them, very quickly, quick*-freeze. Called quick-freeze. Then 240° below zero. And in order to maintain that condition, that temperature, for a hundred, two hundred years, it will cost a lot of money. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: So they require to pay so much in advance, just to maintain that low condition. Prabhupāda: So they are being stopped. Śyāmasundara: Yes, stopped. Prabhupāda: So after two hundred years they will come out? Śyāmasundara: They are hoping that they will be able to come out alive. Prabhupāda: At least for two hundred years he's dead. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit? Śyāmasundara: Because they have a disease. Most of them have a fatal disease that there is no cure for—like cancer or heart disease. They are hoping in two hundred years they will have a cure, so that when they wake up they will be cured of that disease and live so many more years. Prabhupāda: How foolish. After two hundred years he will come out again on this hope, he is staying one weekend—and dies. And the government is allowing this business? Hanumān: Science is . . . (indistinct) . . . very serious. (laughter) (end) Conversation -- April 17, 1972, Auckland Śyāmasundara: (introducing recording) Lecture in Prabhupāda's room. Confidential talks with his devotees on the evening of April 17th, 1972, in Auckland, New Zealand. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just find out . . . (indistinct) . . . talks . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to . . . (indistinct) Hanumān: They will travel back and forth. They will travel back and . . . they will stand. Now they are building huge spaceships, will be like a city, and they will install a city there, of spaceships, so many big, like a city, and then there will be . . . there will be little spaceship going back and forth. Prabhupāda: Utopian. (laughter) Utopian. Hanumān: But they still, they . . . they said that there was . . . there was something like that now. One was leaving this morning five o’clock to go there on the moon. One after another was leaving this morning to go there. Prabhupāda: That they have gone many times. It is not new thing. But they cannot stay there. They come back. Hanumān: They cannot stay here, either, very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hanumān: They cannot stay here very long, either. Prabhupāda: Still, they can stay here at least. But there it is . . . (indistinct) . . . so how they can live there? Hanumān: Well, they will bring everything from here, there. and then, then they can live there. (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: First of all to go there, two million miles away? Śyāmasundara: It is near nine, nine million miles. Prabhupāda: Nine million. So the gasoline taken from here nine million to come back. That is the problem. Hanumān: It is not exactly gasoline; it is solid. It is solid gasoline, Prabhupāda. It is solid, a kind of . . . very chemical . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Hanumān: . . . it is not exactly the same kind of chemical. And for a while also the Sputnik, they worked with the . . . the those . . . (indistinct) . . . in other words, they . . . Prabhupāda: So why the astronauts are taking so much trouble? Why don't they stay? And they do not take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to home? (laughter) What is the profit by doing such business, by bringing petrol from moon planet and use it here and drive motorcar? Why they are taking so much trouble? Hanumān: Because they are rascals. (laughter) Indian Guest: One more thing Swamiji . . . they say why there is no living entities, because if there are any living entities then there would be some changes on the surface of the moon. Because whenever there is the living entities, there would be something there, actively, and so the actual surface of the moon would be changed. But they don't see any changes there, if there is animals. They would do some kind of activities . . . Prabhupāda: There is no trees or . . . (indistinct) Indian Guest: Only a rock, plain rock. Prabhupāda: But here, so far we have already seen it, rock is reserve of living entities. Indian Guest: Yes. Hanumān: They say they have heard strange noise. Astronauts who go there, they say that they have heard very strange noise. Prabhupāda: From where the noise comes? Hanumān: They don't know, but they say it is full of noises, many kinds of noises. Indian Guest: They don't know what is the other half of the moon. We only have seen the half moon, but we cannot see the other side of the moon, and they cannot go there because it is completely dark there. It is completely dark there. Prabhupāda: Dark? Indian Guest: Dark, yes. There is no sunshine at all. Sunshine is only for one half of the moon. That we see from earth. And then that half remains, and that half is facing the sun all the time, while other half is completely out of sunshine. Prabhupāda: So what is this traveling light? Indian Guest: On the moon there is half… Prabhupāda: It is half, but what is . . . (indistinct)? Indian Guest: It is sunshine. Prabhupāda: Sunshine, that it is all right. But what is there in the moonshine? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that sunshine? That is not ordinary dust, because in ordinary dust, if there is sunshine it does not reflect. Indian Guest: No it does not. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Dust? Indian Guest: Yes, because they can see moonshine as dust from shining from the moon. Hanumān: Then they consider… when you are on the planet moon, they take a picture of the planet earth, and it is just like the moon. From here the moon looks just like the earth looks from the moon. Prabhupāda: Then the moonlight is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Indian Guest: They do . . . yes . . . (indistinct) . . . they can actually see . . . they can see Mars from here. Hanumān: They take picture . . . (indistinct) Indian Guest: Wherever they come from, suppose there is one flag, flag port. And if there is one . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see it. Similarly, the whole sky is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, but just the other part is dark, now how it can remain dark if the shining from the earth is going there? Indian Guest: Now what happens is that suppose there is a moon, and I mean to say there is sun, and the moon is going like that, see? So that is how it remains in light all the time. And the other half, it remains out of sunshine all the time. Prabhupāda: Every planet is rotating. Indian Guest: But moon is rotating in such a way that the half remains in sunshine; the other remains in dark all the time. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Indian Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Rotating means it must turn. Because sunshine is very great, and all other planets they are very small. So as soon as it is rotating, it must come to be face of the sunshine. Indian Guest: Because there are two reasons. There are two forces to the moon: one from the earth and the other from the sun. These two forces keep the moon in such a way that the half, only one half remains facing the sun, and the other half remains in the dark. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I don't believe all this nonsense. (laughter) This is unnatural. Every planet is rotating that is called orbit . . . (indistinct) . . . so how this moon can be different from other planets? Every planet is in the outer space. They have no support. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . it is rotating. So how the moon will be? Even sun is rotating. So what this moon has got that it has got different method? So everything to me, actually, it appears to be . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have not gone to the other side. Why? Why this is? Indian Guest: No. Darkness prevails. It is dark there, completely dark. Prabhupāda: So that means that part never comes to the sunshine? Indian Guest: No. Prabhupāda: So that is impractical. Sun is also rotating. So, sun also by rotating, it does not light that part? This is moon; it is not rotating. But sun is rotating, so why it does not shine the other part? Indian Guest: The sun is rotating with moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian Guest: Sun is rotating with moon . . . (indistinct) . . . light. Prabhupāda: The sun is rotating with all the planets? Indian Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: All the planets. Indian Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is another. The whole planetary system is . . . Indian Guest: Is rotating, yes. Prabhupāda: The center is the polestar. Indian Guest: That's it. Prabhupāda: So that is another rotating. Indian Guest: Yes. The moon is rotating around earth. But again, earth is rotating around the sun. So sun and moon are in . . . more than earth, they are both rotating around the sun, but again moon is rotating around earth too. And this moon, earth is rotating around sun. Prabhupāda: There are many other planets, they're also rotating. Indian Guest: Oh, yes. They are all rotating. Prabhupāda: All rotating. Moon is only small. Actually smaller than the earth. Indian Guest: No, no . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So you can go on speculating, but so far we are concerned—it is coming from śāstra —moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. The residents of that planet, they're all demigods. Indian Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So the demigods means they have got very, very long duration of life. They are more intelligent; their standard of living is so much better. So these things we have got information. If they describe the moon planet like that, it is very difficult to follow. Indian Guest: So this will happen sometimes, that, Swāmījī, that description in the śāstra and the reality, they . . . (indistinct) . . . what sometimes asks, and what we believe from the śāstra , is a contradiction to them. Prabhupāda: Contradictment to them, but we don't contradict. We take it as it is. And their contradiction has not proved their theory. They are talking about planets, so many things like that . . . (indistinct) . . . so it is very difficult to believe. Woman devotee: There was one program on television where they were presenting the theory of the scientists, and it was showing how the theories that they have on outer space every ten or twelve years are changing completely. And the whole program was a scientific program. So this is what you believe . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore they are nonsense. Woman devotee: They all contradicted each other, every one. Prabhupāda: Just see. Therefore how can we teach? If it changes, you cannot teach them. Then what is the value of their knowledge? Indian Guest: Oh, yes. It is changing all the time. They say that sun is rotating because . . . (indistinct) . . . all the time. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Indian Guest: That's a fact. Is it in śāstra , Swāmī? Prabhupāda: Everything is clear, will become clear. Indian Guest: Is it that śāstra somewhere? Prabhupāda: Because everything comes as a seed, then it becomes developed. That is the way of material things. Hanumān: So this planet also, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hanumān: It came out of a seed, and then it grows with all the . . . oh. Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Eight million. Hanumān: And this evolution process, is it different living entity among the 8,400,000 species who came, and gradually, until men came? Or man was always here? Prabhupāda: Man was always here. Hanumān: Man was always on this planet. Prabhupāda: May not be in this planet, but there was always. Because just like in New Zealand, there was no men . . . (indistinct) . . . the Europeans came later on. So it was not so full of life, but there was a class of men. All others, animals, were there, trees were there. Indian Guest: But so many . . . (indistinct) . . . have a high temperature of fifty million centigrade, and it does not remain in solid or liquid form. It becomes a gas, a vapor, completely. Now how . . .? Prabhupāda: Therefore gaseous body. Indian Guest: Gaseous body. That is what I mean; there must be some gaseous body. *Hanumān: And the scientists, they also say that in twenty*-five years from now, whatever they contrive to do they will not be able to feed all the people of this planet. They can try to . . . Prabhupāda: At the end of it, everything has changed; therefore they can speak. Hanumān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So they have got this loophole. They can speak any nonsense. They will adjust, "Oh, it has changed." That's all. Woman devotee: One time they believed that the world was flat. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: And the man was hanged who said it is round. That was their perfect knowledge. So we have to believe such perfect knowledge. When they say it has changed . . . their position. We cannot accept such knowledge. It changes every twenty*-five years. (break) But we see . . . (break) Indian Guest: . . . moon does not have its own light. It is a reflection of sunlight. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . and in the Bhagavad*-gītā it states, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī ( BG 10.21). Hanumān: Hmm, yes. Prabhupāda: So this moon planet is one of the stars, illuminated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are getting moonlight at night, but if the earth is also reflecting like that, what is the use of moonlight? Indian Guest: But earth is reflected on moonlight. But one of the reason is that the sky is pure dark region, but if any objects come in the sky, and if moonlight falls on that object, then you can see the object, and that is due to the reflection of light that we get from that object. You see, what happens, if moonlight does not fall on the sun, then you wouldn't be able to see the sun at all. If sunlight doesn't fall on the sun, then we would not be able to see sun at all. Similarly, if moonlight or sunlight does not fall on the earth, then they would not be able to see earth from the sun . . . earth from the moon. (break) Prabhupāda: We have to leave all this material world. Indian Guest: This is right. Prabhupāda: We are not going to take birth again in this material world, either in the moon planet or sun planet, or this planet, or that, within this universe. Not only this universe—there are millions of universes. Nowhere we're going to come. We are not interested. (laughs) Indian Guest: No. No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You see? So we're going to the spiritual world to have our eternal, blissful knowledge and life. That is our program. So what we will do with this teeny information of moon planet, this planet, that planet? We have got already some information, we are satisfied. That is all. But we're not going there. We are not interested. Why shall we go there? Indian Guest: No. Śyāmasundara: Are you talking about the three astronauts on their way there now? Yes. Hanumān: We don't want any petrol. We don't want to give our lives for some petrol. Prabhupāda: Why shall I find out petrol, when my petrol will be finished and I'll have to take a body like a dog or a cat? (laughter) They have no such knowledge. Hanumān: No, they don't. Prabhupāda: So finding out the petrol . . . when his personal petrol will be finished, he will have to accept the body of a dog. That's all. What he is going to do? First of all try to fill up your own personal petrol. Their personal petrol, it is sure to finish. That they don't care. So after finishing the personal petrol, if he is going to accept the body of a dog, then what is the use of finding petrol in moon planet? What is the answer for this, that how they are going to stop the petrol, which is going to finish after ten years or fifteen years? Where is the provision? Where is the atomic energy or petrol to keep yourself, to find out petrol in the moon planet? Where is that problem solved? By the time you find out petrol in moon planet, your petrol will be finished. (laughter) Then what you will do? Just see? Foolish attempt. Śyāmasundara: There is no possibility of petrol on the moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Moon planet there cannot be petrol. Prabhupāda: Unless, suppose they're making research, find out petrol on the moon planet. But say it takes forty to fifty years: by that time your personal petrol will be finished. You cannot move; you cannot stop all nonsense. Then what you will do? So long you have got petrol, you are talking all nonsense as scientist. But when this petrol will be finished, you will no longer be able to talk even, what to speak of finding out petrol in moon planet. Where is that problem is solved? They are not very much interested in this subject matter. Eh? After all, your petrol is limited. Suppose you can live fifty or sixty years—upmost hundred years. But the scientist, when his petrol is finished, he is kicked out on the street, many, many scientist. So why do they not find out petrol for himself, so that he may continue the research work? So why they're lacking this knowledge? What do you say? (break) Hanumān: (indistinct) . . . they have a . . . they have a capsule where they put people who die from a sickness, and they take all the blood out, and they put some chemical, and they say that maybe in fifty or twenty or one hundred years from now, when they will have find the medicine, they will wake them up. Prabhupāda: That is in future. That is in future. Hanumān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're trying to keep the person. Hanumān: They are trying to keep the body conserved in a machine for the time being. They pay one million dollars to be put in that machine, and the machine all day long takes all this chemical out and then of their body. So maybe in fifty years they will be able to wake them up to cure the disease that killed them. Śyāmasundara: They are frozen, too, aren’t they? Hanumān: Frozen. They are frozen. They call it frozen. Śyāmasundara: Freeze their bodies. Hanumān: And great scientists, great doctors, they do that. They pay one million dollars to go in that machine in the hope that one day they will be able to come back and enjoy. Prabhupāda: Do you want to go? (laughter) Hanumān: No. I want to serve your lotus feet. Prabhupāda: *Just like when a person becomes ghostly*-haunted, he talks all nonsense. Similarly, one who is under the influence of māyā , he also talks. So this machine has proved successful even for a single man or children? Indian Guest: Not yet. Hanumān: They haven't wakened anyone up now. (laughter) They're all still in the machine. (laughter) In five years . . . Woman devotee: So that all the people who paid the money will be dead also. Prabhupāda: People are paying money and going to the machine? Hanumān: One million dollars. Indian Guest: To be in the machine. Prabhupāda: To make experiment? Hanumān: No, to be . . . if you want the chance to be woken up one day, you have to have one million dollars to maintain the machine for the time you know, until they find to wake you up. Prabhupāda: So many men have gone, and they have died? Hanumān: Yes. Yes, many men. Prabhupāda: So after died, then what is the profit? *Śyāmasundara: No, they volunteer to be killed. They volunteer to be killed in a way, because they put them to sleep, then they withdraw all the blood from their veins and inject some chemicals, and then they freeze them, very quickly, quick*-freeze. Called quick-freeze. Then 240° below zero. And in order to maintain that condition, that temperature, for a hundred, two hundred years, it will cost a lot of money. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: So they require to pay so much in advance, just to maintain that low condition. Prabhupāda: So they are being stopped. Śyāmasundara: Yes, stopped. Prabhupāda: So after two hundred years they will come out? Śyāmasundara: They are hoping that they will be able to come out alive. Prabhupāda: At least for two hundred years he's dead. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit? Śyāmasundara: Because they have a disease. Most of them have a fatal disease that there is no cure for—like cancer or heart disease. They are hoping in two hundred years they will have a cure, so that when they wake up they will be cured of that disease and live so many more years. Prabhupāda: How foolish. After two hundred years he will come out again on this hope, he is staying one weekend—and dies. And the government is allowing this business? Hanumān: Science is . . . (indistinct) . . . very serious. (laughter) (end) Arrival and Interview -- April 19, 1972, Hong Kong *Prabhupāda: . . . gītā . Unfortunately, there are so many interpretations by so many unscrupulous persons, so*-called scholars and philosophers, that they have spoiled the precept of Bhagavad-gītā . So we are just trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is to the world, and I am very happy to inform you, you know, that all over the world, wherever I am going, I am preaching this philosophy, they are being accepted. So I am also very glad that in this distant place, Hong Kong, from India, you are training your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is a very good sign. Their life will be very happy. So continue this process, try to understand the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, try to help this movement. *I may refer in this connection that Subhas, you know Netajī, he organized his Indian National Army outside India, because in India he was unable to organize. The circumstances were so awkward, even Mahatma Gandhi would not allow him. That was his position. So you know very well how Subhas Chandra Bose came out of his country and organized the INA movement, and practically India's got independence due to Subhas Bose's INA movement, not Gandhi's non*-cooperation movement. That is a fact. *So India has to give something to the world, and that is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice it can solve all the problems of human society. So in India, even our Indians are prepared to help to propagate this movement all over the world. Our government is so nice that it will not allow. It will not allow. Not a single farthing is allowed to come out of India. So there are so many obstacles, but I am working in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement single*-handed, so it is very pleasing to me that you are taking so much interest. So continue to support this movement spread all over the world, and I am sure people will be benefited. Actually they are being benefited. All these boys from Europe and America, how they are making advancement in spiritual consciousness you have seen, one or two examples. There are many thousands, and they are accepting it very seriously. So this movement is very important movement, and it is India's gift, and I would request you all Indians present here to support this movement: This body, to make this body successful, this human form of body is meant for making our life success. Otherwise, if you remain like cats and dogs, that is not success. The success is: You may remain a Brāhmin, varṇāśrama, varṇa and āśrama , as I have already explained. Whatever you may be, you must be within this one category, either Brāhmin or Kṣatriya or Vaiśya or Śūdra or brahmacārī , gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī . In whichever classification you may remain, it doesn't matter, but try to see that your life is successful. *This is an instruction given by Sūta Gosvāmī to the great learned scholars in Naimiṣāraṇya, that ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā , "My dear learned Brahmins, dvija-śreṣṭhā . . ." All the members present there were highly learned Brahmins , so he gave this advice. "My dear dvija-śreṣṭhā , the best of the Brahmins," ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ . *There are divisions of social order or spiritual order, but one should try to see . . . (indistinct) . . . he must try to see that his life is successful. And what is that life is successful? Varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam : you have to see whether by your activities, by your behavior, by your actions Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. That is all. If you try to understand this only one point, that by your work Kṛṣṇa is satisfied . . . just like Arjuna satisfied Kṛṣṇa by fighting. Similarly, by your whatever occupation you are doing, if you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose, and we . . . you are already helping, and we shall be very glad if you cooperate and push this movement all over the world. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: What is that? Child: Prasāda . Prabhupāda: Prasāda . Thank you . . . keep it here. Very good boy. You take some prasāda first. Take it. Child: No, take little. Prabhupāda: All right. (laughter) You want prasāda ? Take it. (laughter) Oh, it is very nice, hmm. I shall eat, or you shall eat? Child: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh . . . (indistinct) Lady devotee: Samosās (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice prasāda . Child: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not . . . (indistinct) Lady devotee: Pakoras . Prabhupāda: They have not yet come? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they are putting the luggage . . . they do not stay on this floor . . . (indistinct) . . . some floors down. Prabhupāda: They have come? Śyāmasundara: They are loading the luggage now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they have come? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they have come . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): Mr. Mack. Prabhupāda: If there is any question you can ask, on the subject matter on which we . . . eh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . this gentleman, he takes care of the . . . (indistinct) . . . United States, and he has a present for you. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: This is Larry Mack. Prabhupāda: What is that? Oh. This is for sannyāsī , or for lady? (laughter) Devotee: It is for the health. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. I am very glad that you have trained, so many boys. Undo this. Hmm. Yes? Child: Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . a forest fire. What was the forest fire? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughter in background) Prabhupāda: Forest fire? It takes place automatically. Devotee: We read them Kṛṣṇa book and we ask them questions at the class. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Forest fire, nobody goes to set fire in the forest, but it takes place. Therefore this material world is compared with forest fire. However you may try to keep yourself in peace and tranquility by your dealings with one another, there will be misunderstanding, and both the parties will suffer. Just like we tried to become independent out of the hands of the Britishers, to live peacefully, but the Pakistan and the Hindustan is still going on and fighting. Formerly the fighting was not organized; somewhere in the cities in some quarters there was fight. Now it is organized fight with lethal weapons. This is the position of the world. The United Nation is trying to stop war, but the war is increasing. They could not stop the Vietnam War. It is going on for the last fifteen years. So this forest fire example is there: nobody wants to set fire in the forest, but automatically, by nature's way, this world is such that there will be fire in the forest, and all the living entities within the fire, they will suffer. Similarly, this whole material world is just like a forest fire. But if we take the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, then He will swallow up the fire. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: You have seen the picture, Kṛṣṇa is eating. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there will be forest fire always within your heart. Saṁsāra*-davanale, divā-niśi hiyā jvale (Gītāvalī). The heart will be burning always. Any big man or small man who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, his heart is always burning. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahaḥ (SB 7.5.5). This forest fire is like that. Nobody wants forest fire, but it takes place. *And this forest fire cannot be extinguished by your so*-called fire brigade for tubs of water. No. That is not possible. Suppose there is forest fire, eh? You cannot go with . . . you cannot go in the forest with the fire brigade or tubs of water. Then how it will be extinguished? It will be extinguished. There is a process. What is that? When there is rainfall. Rainfall from sky, that is not in your hands. Similarly, this world of forest fire can be extinguished when Kṛṣṇa's mercy will fall down from. Therefore the forest fire is going on, and we are trying to draw the cloud of Kṛṣṇa and pour water on it. That is our mission. Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: There is a man here from a radio station. He would like to have a short interview with you if possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have already spoken. (break) Have you taken it? Reporter: Yeah. Devotee: You have a question? Reporter: Could you explain the Hare Krishna movement briefly to our listeners? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is Hare and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. There are three words that make . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So this is a prayer addressing Harā. Harā, this word, Sanskrit word, when it is addressing, then it becomes Hare. So Harā means the energy of the Lord. *There are multi*-energies of the Supreme Lord. They are practically working everywhere. Just like fire, fire . . . in one place there is fire, but it is distributing the energy. Just like in one place there is sun planet, and the heat and light is being distributed. The heat and light is sun, at the same time not sun. So there is energy of the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. Those energies, spiritual energy and material energy, they are working. This Harā is the energy. We are addressing, "O the energy of the Lord." And Kṛṣṇa, "O Lord," Kṛṣṇa and Rāma, the Lord. So we are addressing the Lord and His energies to engage us in His service, "Please engage us in Your service." We are already in service, but that service is not giving us any happiness. So "Please engage us in Your service," that is the Hare Kṛṣṇa. And another advantage is God is absolute. There is no difference between His name and God. Just like here, there is difference. If you want water, simply "water, water" will not act. You must have the substance water, because it is relative world. But in the absolute world, Kṛṣṇa and His name, Kṛṣṇa the person, Supreme Person, and His name is the same. So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa we are associating with Kṛṣṇa, and as we are associating with Kṛṣṇa we are becoming purified. Therefore repeatedly chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, and you will be purified of your material existence; then your life will be successful. Reporter: One often hears about the difference between Western and Eastern philosophy and religion. Why do you think that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement attracted so many followers in the West? Prabhupāda: The Hare Kṛṣṇa is neither Western or Eastern. It is meant for human being. You see? This "Western," "Eastern," they are our own creation. God is neither Western or Eastern. God is God. So anyone who will chant God's name will benefit. That's all. There is no question of Western and Eastern. Reporter: How can Hare Kṛṣṇa help us solve our very difficult . . . Prabhupāda: Because if you are purified . . . the whole difficulty is that we are not purified. We are impure. Impure means we are thinking in bodily concept of life. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black," these are all designation of the body. We have to transcend the position of the body: We have to become nirmalam , purified pure soul. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . This understanding, when I shall come to the stage, "I am pure soul, Brahman." So this is a great science, but the summary, I can inform you, that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa you become purified. And as soon as you become purified, you become happy. That is it. You have to become purified. At the present moment we are not purified, we are all impure. But this process will help you to become purified. So if you become purified, you understand everything. Just like if you are in delirium out of strong fever, you cannot see things what they are, talk so many nonsense things. So similarly, we being enchanted by this material energy or this material body, we are identifying with this body and we are unhappy. As soon as we are purified—we understand that, "I am not this body; I am pure soul"—then my happiness is guaranteed. Reporter: Can we reach this stage of purification? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So many are reaching. Why not? You see these American boys and European boys, they have reached purification. They are, from the very beginning of their life, they were meat*-eaters and so many things. Illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling, they are daily affairs. But they have given up everything. Are they not purified? They are being purified from sinful activities, actually, simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . This is practical. Practical example. Thousands and thousands of boys and girls, they are becoming purified simply by following the rules and regulations. So this is practical. If you do, you also become purified. Anyone will do. There is no question of "East" or "West," "Hindu," "Muslim." We have got students from all camps. The Africans, they are also dancing, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We have got branches in Africa and Canada, in Europe, in America, in Australia. I am just coming from Australia. We have got two temples, one in Melbourne, one in Sydney, and just yesterday we established another temple, in New Zealand, Auckland. *So we have got ninety*-five centers all over the world, and each center you will find not less than twenty-five, up to two hundred students like this, like Bhūrijana Prabhu. They are very happily living. Bhūrijana's wife, she was a very famous actress, but she has given up everything. Now she is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you see. Thank you. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. *(devotees offer obeisances, sing Gurv*-aṣṭaka prayers) Very good. Come on, leader . . . (indistinct) . . . who is your leader? Students come here, leader. Who is your leader? Devotee: Lalu Suresh Deepak. Prabhupāda: Come on. Who is Lalu? Devotee: Lalu Suresh Deepak. Prabhupāda: Ah. Child: The leader. Prabhupāda: So come on. You take. Take. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haribol! Haribol! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Prabhupāda. Wow! Haribol! Haribol! Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ācchā . Thank you very much. ( kīrtana ) (break) (end) Arrival and Interview -- April 19, 1972, Hong Kong *Prabhupāda: . . . gītā . Unfortunately, there are so many interpretations by so many unscrupulous persons, so*-called scholars and philosophers, that they have spoiled the precept of Bhagavad-gītā . So we are just trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is to the world, and I am very happy to inform you, you know, that all over the world, wherever I am going, I am preaching this philosophy, they are being accepted. So I am also very glad that in this distant place, Hong Kong, from India, you are training your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is a very good sign. Their life will be very happy. So continue this process, try to understand the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, try to help this movement. *I may refer in this connection that Subhas, you know Netajī, he organized his Indian National Army outside India, because in India he was unable to organize. The circumstances were so awkward, even Mahatma Gandhi would not allow him. That was his position. So you know very well how Subhas Chandra Bose came out of his country and organized the INA movement, and practically India's got independence due to Subhas Bose's INA movement, not Gandhi's non*-cooperation movement. That is a fact. *So India has to give something to the world, and that is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice it can solve all the problems of human society. So in India, even our Indians are prepared to help to propagate this movement all over the world. Our government is so nice that it will not allow. It will not allow. Not a single farthing is allowed to come out of India. So there are so many obstacles, but I am working in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement single*-handed, so it is very pleasing to me that you are taking so much interest. So continue to support this movement spread all over the world, and I am sure people will be benefited. Actually they are being benefited. All these boys from Europe and America, how they are making advancement in spiritual consciousness you have seen, one or two examples. There are many thousands, and they are accepting it very seriously. So this movement is very important movement, and it is India's gift, and I would request you all Indians present here to support this movement: This body, to make this body successful, this human form of body is meant for making our life success. Otherwise, if you remain like cats and dogs, that is not success. The success is: You may remain a Brāhmin, varṇāśrama, varṇa and āśrama , as I have already explained. Whatever you may be, you must be within this one category, either Brāhmin or Kṣatriya or Vaiśya or Śūdra or brahmacārī , gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī . In whichever classification you may remain, it doesn't matter, but try to see that your life is successful. *This is an instruction given by Sūta Gosvāmī to the great learned scholars in Naimiṣāraṇya, that ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā , "My dear learned Brahmins, dvija-śreṣṭhā . . ." All the members present there were highly learned Brahmins , so he gave this advice. "My dear dvija-śreṣṭhā , the best of the Brahmins," ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ . *There are divisions of social order or spiritual order, but one should try to see . . . (indistinct) . . . he must try to see that his life is successful. And what is that life is successful? Varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam : you have to see whether by your activities, by your behavior, by your actions Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. That is all. If you try to understand this only one point, that by your work Kṛṣṇa is satisfied . . . just like Arjuna satisfied Kṛṣṇa by fighting. Similarly, by your whatever occupation you are doing, if you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose, and we . . . you are already helping, and we shall be very glad if you cooperate and push this movement all over the world. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: What is that? Child: Prasāda . Prabhupāda: Prasāda . Thank you . . . keep it here. Very good boy. You take some prasāda first. Take it. Child: No, take little. Prabhupāda: All right. (laughter) You want prasāda ? Take it. (laughter) Oh, it is very nice, hmm. I shall eat, or you shall eat? Child: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh . . . (indistinct) Lady devotee: Samosās (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice prasāda . Child: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not . . . (indistinct) Lady devotee: Pakoras . Prabhupāda: They have not yet come? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they are putting the luggage . . . they do not stay on this floor . . . (indistinct) . . . some floors down. Prabhupāda: They have come? Śyāmasundara: They are loading the luggage now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they have come? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they have come . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): Mr. Mack. Prabhupāda: If there is any question you can ask, on the subject matter on which we . . . eh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . this gentleman, he takes care of the . . . (indistinct) . . . United States, and he has a present for you. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: This is Larry Mack. Prabhupāda: What is that? Oh. This is for sannyāsī , or for lady? (laughter) Devotee: It is for the health. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. I am very glad that you have trained, so many boys. Undo this. Hmm. Yes? Child: Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . a forest fire. What was the forest fire? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughter in background) Prabhupāda: Forest fire? It takes place automatically. Devotee: We read them Kṛṣṇa book and we ask them questions at the class. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Forest fire, nobody goes to set fire in the forest, but it takes place. Therefore this material world is compared with forest fire. However you may try to keep yourself in peace and tranquility by your dealings with one another, there will be misunderstanding, and both the parties will suffer. Just like we tried to become independent out of the hands of the Britishers, to live peacefully, but the Pakistan and the Hindustan is still going on and fighting. Formerly the fighting was not organized; somewhere in the cities in some quarters there was fight. Now it is organized fight with lethal weapons. This is the position of the world. The United Nation is trying to stop war, but the war is increasing. They could not stop the Vietnam War. It is going on for the last fifteen years. So this forest fire example is there: nobody wants to set fire in the forest, but automatically, by nature's way, this world is such that there will be fire in the forest, and all the living entities within the fire, they will suffer. Similarly, this whole material world is just like a forest fire. But if we take the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, then He will swallow up the fire. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: You have seen the picture, Kṛṣṇa is eating. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there will be forest fire always within your heart. Saṁsāra*-davanale, divā-niśi hiyā jvale (Gītāvalī). The heart will be burning always. Any big man or small man who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, his heart is always burning. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahaḥ (SB 7.5.5). This forest fire is like that. Nobody wants forest fire, but it takes place. *And this forest fire cannot be extinguished by your so*-called fire brigade for tubs of water. No. That is not possible. Suppose there is forest fire, eh? You cannot go with . . . you cannot go in the forest with the fire brigade or tubs of water. Then how it will be extinguished? It will be extinguished. There is a process. What is that? When there is rainfall. Rainfall from sky, that is not in your hands. Similarly, this world of forest fire can be extinguished when Kṛṣṇa's mercy will fall down from. Therefore the forest fire is going on, and we are trying to draw the cloud of Kṛṣṇa and pour water on it. That is our mission. Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: There is a man here from a radio station. He would like to have a short interview with you if possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have already spoken. (break) Have you taken it? Reporter: Yeah. Devotee: You have a question? Reporter: Could you explain the Hare Krishna movement briefly to our listeners? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is Hare and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. There are three words that make . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So this is a prayer addressing Harā. Harā, this word, Sanskrit word, when it is addressing, then it becomes Hare. So Harā means the energy of the Lord. *There are multi*-energies of the Supreme Lord. They are practically working everywhere. Just like fire, fire . . . in one place there is fire, but it is distributing the energy. Just like in one place there is sun planet, and the heat and light is being distributed. The heat and light is sun, at the same time not sun. So there is energy of the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. Those energies, spiritual energy and material energy, they are working. This Harā is the energy. We are addressing, "O the energy of the Lord." And Kṛṣṇa, "O Lord," Kṛṣṇa and Rāma, the Lord. So we are addressing the Lord and His energies to engage us in His service, "Please engage us in Your service." We are already in service, but that service is not giving us any happiness. So "Please engage us in Your service," that is the Hare Kṛṣṇa. And another advantage is God is absolute. There is no difference between His name and God. Just like here, there is difference. If you want water, simply "water, water" will not act. You must have the substance water, because it is relative world. But in the absolute world, Kṛṣṇa and His name, Kṛṣṇa the person, Supreme Person, and His name is the same. So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa we are associating with Kṛṣṇa, and as we are associating with Kṛṣṇa we are becoming purified. Therefore repeatedly chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, and you will be purified of your material existence; then your life will be successful. Reporter: One often hears about the difference between Western and Eastern philosophy and religion. Why do you think that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement attracted so many followers in the West? Prabhupāda: The Hare Kṛṣṇa is neither Western or Eastern. It is meant for human being. You see? This "Western," "Eastern," they are our own creation. God is neither Western or Eastern. God is God. So anyone who will chant God's name will benefit. That's all. There is no question of Western and Eastern. Reporter: How can Hare Kṛṣṇa help us solve our very difficult . . . Prabhupāda: Because if you are purified . . . the whole difficulty is that we are not purified. We are impure. Impure means we are thinking in bodily concept of life. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black," these are all designation of the body. We have to transcend the position of the body: We have to become nirmalam , purified pure soul. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . This understanding, when I shall come to the stage, "I am pure soul, Brahman." So this is a great science, but the summary, I can inform you, that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa you become purified. And as soon as you become purified, you become happy. That is it. You have to become purified. At the present moment we are not purified, we are all impure. But this process will help you to become purified. So if you become purified, you understand everything. Just like if you are in delirium out of strong fever, you cannot see things what they are, talk so many nonsense things. So similarly, we being enchanted by this material energy or this material body, we are identifying with this body and we are unhappy. As soon as we are purified—we understand that, "I am not this body; I am pure soul"—then my happiness is guaranteed. Reporter: Can we reach this stage of purification? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So many are reaching. Why not? You see these American boys and European boys, they have reached purification. They are, from the very beginning of their life, they were meat*-eaters and so many things. Illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling, they are daily affairs. But they have given up everything. Are they not purified? They are being purified from sinful activities, actually, simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . This is practical. Practical example. Thousands and thousands of boys and girls, they are becoming purified simply by following the rules and regulations. So this is practical. If you do, you also become purified. Anyone will do. There is no question of "East" or "West," "Hindu," "Muslim." We have got students from all camps. The Africans, they are also dancing, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We have got branches in Africa and Canada, in Europe, in America, in Australia. I am just coming from Australia. We have got two temples, one in Melbourne, one in Sydney, and just yesterday we established another temple, in New Zealand, Auckland. *So we have got ninety*-five centers all over the world, and each center you will find not less than twenty-five, up to two hundred students like this, like Bhūrijana Prabhu. They are very happily living. Bhūrijana's wife, she was a very famous actress, but she has given up everything. Now she is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you see. Thank you. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. *(devotees offer obeisances, sing Gurv*-aṣṭaka prayers) Very good. Come on, leader . . . (indistinct) . . . who is your leader? Students come here, leader. Who is your leader? Devotee: Lalu Suresh Deepak. Prabhupāda: Come on. Who is Lalu? Devotee: Lalu Suresh Deepak. Prabhupāda: Ah. Child: The leader. Prabhupāda: So come on. You take. Take. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haribol! Haribol! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Prabhupāda. Wow! Haribol! Haribol! Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ācchā . Thank you very much. ( kīrtana ) (break) (end) Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 21, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: It will be finished in about sixty volumes, like the one already you have got coming? Karandhara: Sample. Yes. Five coming. They are printing five already. Prabhupāda: Five coming. So similarly, we have to reprint our First Canto. Karandhara: That's what they're printing now. First and Second Canto. Prabhupāda: First and Second Canto. So all the First Cantos? Karandhara: Yes. Three volumes. Prabhupāda: Three volumes. Karandhara: And two volumes of the Second Canto. Prabhupāda: Then third, fourth, fifth. And the Tenth Canto will be about . . . there are ninety chapters. Karandhara: Ninety. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are accommodating how many chapters? About six? Karandhara: It depends on the length of the chapters. Sometimes ten, sometimes six. Prabhupāda: So on the average, if you take eight chapters, then it comes to . . . Karandhara: Eight volumes. Prabhupāda: Eight volumes in the tenth chapter. Then Eleventh Canto, Twelfth Canto. So altogether it will be sixty volumes. One book, sixty volumes. Perhaps there is none in the world, one subject matter. (Japanese exclamations) So that I wish to contribute to the world, with the cooperation of Dai Nippon. Yes. It will be record contribution to the world thought. Karandhara: Already the first volume of the Third Canto and the First Volume of the Fourth Canto, they are ready to be printed. I have them in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. So now our Sanskrit editor is there, Pradyumna. Karandhara: The work will go much faster. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And if Hayagrīva also finishes, then I can give daily one chapter. Karandhara: Per day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Should be able to produce a volume at least every month. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the editors must be very expedient. Besides that, I think this Kṛṣṇa book, smaller edition, that will have very soon another repeat. Karandhara: At least ten million we will print in the Kṛṣṇa book pocket size. *Prabhupāda: And Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , Macmillan Company's, they have taken, and they are also printing yearly fifty thousand, or more than that. At least in Western countries there is no such thought of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is completely . . . that professor, what is his name? Karandhara: Dimock? Prabhupāda: Dimock. He has given very good appreciation. And gradually it will be printed in other languages: German, French, Spanish, Denmark, Holland . . . Karandhara: Danish. Prabhupāda: Danish, yes. And we are getting also Hindi layout from India. That Hindi magazine also will be printed. Gradually, other Indian languages. And Japanese and Chinese also. ( japa ) Karandhara: If Dai Nippon opens a liaison office in Los Angeles, then it will be very easy to work. The contract is for all the jobs. Prabhupāda: The officer will remain there, he will be final, or you have to consult with Mr. Ogata and . . .? Karandhara: Well, their liaison officer there, he will be able to . . . he will correspond with Tokyo. They will fix up estimates and confirmations. But it will make the communication better. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) So there are many Japanese vegetarian? Or he is only? Dai Nippon Rep: Lately it is quite increasing in Japan, yes. It became popular, because we have a lot of problems with pollution. We have a lot of social problem like pollution, traffic jam like anything. So people, in order to keep good health, vegetarian is very good for health. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vegetarian food is very nice. We can give you vegetable menu, three hundred items at least. Dai Nippon Rep: Three hundred? *Prabhupāda: Three hundred. Simply grains, fruits and butter, that's all, and sugar. You give us these four items and we give you three hundred items. Yes. There is a ceremony in India, annakūṭa , Govardhana*-pūjā. So in that ceremony, in each and every temple they prepare as many varieties as possible. Some of them prepare three thousand. Dai Nippon Rep: Three thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. For weeks they prepare. And the competition is the more items the temple prepares, he becomes . . . (break) . . . only. And distribution, prasāda distribution, free of charges. It was a very nice system, that nobody should remain hungry. That is the system. If there is any temple in any neighborhood, in that neighborhood nobody should remain hungry. The Vedic system is that in your house, a householder shall see that even a lizard in the house is not hungry. He must also be given food. Even there is a snake—nobody likes snake—but a Vedic householder has to call the snake and give him food. He also may not remain hungry. This is the . . . *And these things will be explained in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that anything, wherever it is—on land, on the air, sky, within the water, everywhere—God's kingdom; and all living entities, they are God's sons. So everyone has got the right to take advantage of his father's property. This is Bhāgavata communism. *The Communists are thinking in terms of their own country. But we, a devotee, we think in terms of all living entities, wherever he is, either in the sky or in the land or in the water. These things are explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Everything—politics, sociology, religion, philosophy, science, astronomy—everything is there in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And we should not take this movement as a religious movement. It is not religious movement. It is a movement for understanding knowledge. Veda . Veda means knowledge. So religion, according to English dictionary, is a kind of faith. Faith you can change. You have faith today in something; tomorrow you may change. So this is knowledge. Any human being must be interested with advancement of knowledge. So you are waiting to stop me? Photographer: No, sir . . . (indistinct) Sudāmā: He is waiting to have a very nice pose of Your Divine Grace. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So Veda . . . Veda means knowledge. So every human being should be interested for advancement of knowledge. So our movement is not a religious movement; it is a movement for advancement of knowledge. And this knowledge, God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is especially meant for this human body. Because knowledge cannot be given to animals. I cannot speak to the other . . . animals about knowledge, because they are imperfect. Their body is imperfect. They are not suitable for receiving knowledge. Only elementary knowledge for maintaining this body, they have got: where to secure food, where to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse and how to defend. These knowledges are there in animals also. So human being requires further knowledge. That is special prerogative, gift by God, by nature. Whatever you say. So we should utilize this human body for furtherance of knowledge. And the first important knowledge is that we should know that there is life after death. That is the basic principle of knowledge. Unfortunately, at the present moment, in no university there is any department of knowledge where this education is given where there is life after death. I am traveling all over the world. There is no such department. They have completely evaded or set aside, because they cannot make any solution whether there is . . . I talked with one Mr. Kotovsky, a Russian professor in Moscow. I was in Moscow. He said: "Swāmījī, there is no life after death." Just see. He's a big professor, and his knowledge is so imperfect that he says that there is no life after death. *So that is the position everywhere. Those who are teachers, they are with imperfect knowledge. The teachers in the universities, they are with imperfect knowledge. Now, life after death, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is very easily explained that just like a child has next life, boyhood; the boy has next life as youthhood; the youthhood has next life, the old age; so why not the old age next life? If we are passing through so many stages of life, from birth or from the womb of the mother, then what is the reason that one does not believe there is no life after death? Can you say, any one of you? What is the reason? You remember your boyhood body; I remember my youthhood body. So that body is no longer existing, but I am existing. I remember my childhood body. My babyhood body also I remember, particularly. When I was about six months old, I still remember very vividly, I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister, and she was knitting. I remember still. Dai Nippon Rep: Six months? Prabhupāda: Yes, six months. I remember when I was only about one year old, there was a great saṅkīrtana in our house, and I was . . . I also joined the dancing party. And I was seeing up to their knees, very small. So I remember those days. And then after that, I was a boy. I was very much fond of cycling. So many things. Yes. So many dangers, so many adventures. Now I am old man. So all those different stages of body, I remember. But these bodies are not existing. So similarly, I remember or forget, but I was in different types of body—that's a fact. So similarly, after leaving this body, I will have another body. That is natural conclusion. What is the difficulty? Why I shall conclude that after end of this body, there will be no body? Why I shall conclude like this? I have got experience that I have passed though so many different forms of body, but I am existing, although the bodies are not existing. Similarly, in my past life I must have had another body. But . . . that is the law of nature. We get from the book of knowledge that a living entity is injected through the father's semina to the mother's womb, and that that living entity develops a certain type of body. The mother supplies the ingredient. So according to the mother's body, the body is prepared. And when it is matured to come out, it comes out. This is very important part of knowledge. But there is no educational system to understand this important part of knowledge. So we are distributing not a system of religion, but a very important department of knowledge, which human society requires to understand. Don't take it that is a system of religion or faith. No. It is a important department of knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. ( japa ) Anything more you want? No. That's all right. (pause) Devotee: They want to know . . . they don't want to take any more of Prabhupāda's time . . . (indistinct) Karandhara: We can discuss outside. Prabhupāda: So I can go? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So thank you very much for your coming. Devotee: Thank you very much. (end) Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 21, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: It will be finished in about sixty volumes, like the one already you have got coming? Karandhara: Sample. Yes. Five coming. They are printing five already. Prabhupāda: Five coming. So similarly, we have to reprint our First Canto. Karandhara: That's what they're printing now. First and Second Canto. Prabhupāda: First and Second Canto. So all the First Cantos? Karandhara: Yes. Three volumes. Prabhupāda: Three volumes. Karandhara: And two volumes of the Second Canto. Prabhupāda: Then third, fourth, fifth. And the Tenth Canto will be about . . . there are ninety chapters. Karandhara: Ninety. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are accommodating how many chapters? About six? Karandhara: It depends on the length of the chapters. Sometimes ten, sometimes six. Prabhupāda: So on the average, if you take eight chapters, then it comes to . . . Karandhara: Eight volumes. Prabhupāda: Eight volumes in the tenth chapter. Then Eleventh Canto, Twelfth Canto. So altogether it will be sixty volumes. One book, sixty volumes. Perhaps there is none in the world, one subject matter. (Japanese exclamations) So that I wish to contribute to the world, with the cooperation of Dai Nippon. Yes. It will be record contribution to the world thought. Karandhara: Already the first volume of the Third Canto and the First Volume of the Fourth Canto, they are ready to be printed. I have them in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. So now our Sanskrit editor is there, Pradyumna. Karandhara: The work will go much faster. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And if Hayagrīva also finishes, then I can give daily one chapter. Karandhara: Per day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Should be able to produce a volume at least every month. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the editors must be very expedient. Besides that, I think this Kṛṣṇa book, smaller edition, that will have very soon another repeat. Karandhara: At least ten million we will print in the Kṛṣṇa book pocket size. *Prabhupāda: And Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , Macmillan Company's, they have taken, and they are also printing yearly fifty thousand, or more than that. At least in Western countries there is no such thought of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is completely . . . that professor, what is his name? Karandhara: Dimock? Prabhupāda: Dimock. He has given very good appreciation. And gradually it will be printed in other languages: German, French, Spanish, Denmark, Holland . . . Karandhara: Danish. Prabhupāda: Danish, yes. And we are getting also Hindi layout from India. That Hindi magazine also will be printed. Gradually, other Indian languages. And Japanese and Chinese also. ( japa ) Karandhara: If Dai Nippon opens a liaison office in Los Angeles, then it will be very easy to work. The contract is for all the jobs. Prabhupāda: The officer will remain there, he will be final, or you have to consult with Mr. Ogata and . . .? Karandhara: Well, their liaison officer there, he will be able to . . . he will correspond with Tokyo. They will fix up estimates and confirmations. But it will make the communication better. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) So there are many Japanese vegetarian? Or he is only? Dai Nippon Rep: Lately it is quite increasing in Japan, yes. It became popular, because we have a lot of problems with pollution. We have a lot of social problem like pollution, traffic jam like anything. So people, in order to keep good health, vegetarian is very good for health. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vegetarian food is very nice. We can give you vegetable menu, three hundred items at least. Dai Nippon Rep: Three hundred? *Prabhupāda: Three hundred. Simply grains, fruits and butter, that's all, and sugar. You give us these four items and we give you three hundred items. Yes. There is a ceremony in India, annakūṭa , Govardhana*-pūjā. So in that ceremony, in each and every temple they prepare as many varieties as possible. Some of them prepare three thousand. Dai Nippon Rep: Three thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. For weeks they prepare. And the competition is the more items the temple prepares, he becomes . . . (break) . . . only. And distribution, prasāda distribution, free of charges. It was a very nice system, that nobody should remain hungry. That is the system. If there is any temple in any neighborhood, in that neighborhood nobody should remain hungry. The Vedic system is that in your house, a householder shall see that even a lizard in the house is not hungry. He must also be given food. Even there is a snake—nobody likes snake—but a Vedic householder has to call the snake and give him food. He also may not remain hungry. This is the . . . *And these things will be explained in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that anything, wherever it is—on land, on the air, sky, within the water, everywhere—God's kingdom; and all living entities, they are God's sons. So everyone has got the right to take advantage of his father's property. This is Bhāgavata communism. *The Communists are thinking in terms of their own country. But we, a devotee, we think in terms of all living entities, wherever he is, either in the sky or in the land or in the water. These things are explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Everything—politics, sociology, religion, philosophy, science, astronomy—everything is there in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And we should not take this movement as a religious movement. It is not religious movement. It is a movement for understanding knowledge. Veda . Veda means knowledge. So religion, according to English dictionary, is a kind of faith. Faith you can change. You have faith today in something; tomorrow you may change. So this is knowledge. Any human being must be interested with advancement of knowledge. So you are waiting to stop me? Photographer: No, sir . . . (indistinct) Sudāmā: He is waiting to have a very nice pose of Your Divine Grace. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So Veda . . . Veda means knowledge. So every human being should be interested for advancement of knowledge. So our movement is not a religious movement; it is a movement for advancement of knowledge. And this knowledge, God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is especially meant for this human body. Because knowledge cannot be given to animals. I cannot speak to the other . . . animals about knowledge, because they are imperfect. Their body is imperfect. They are not suitable for receiving knowledge. Only elementary knowledge for maintaining this body, they have got: where to secure food, where to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse and how to defend. These knowledges are there in animals also. So human being requires further knowledge. That is special prerogative, gift by God, by nature. Whatever you say. So we should utilize this human body for furtherance of knowledge. And the first important knowledge is that we should know that there is life after death. That is the basic principle of knowledge. Unfortunately, at the present moment, in no university there is any department of knowledge where this education is given where there is life after death. I am traveling all over the world. There is no such department. They have completely evaded or set aside, because they cannot make any solution whether there is . . . I talked with one Mr. Kotovsky, a Russian professor in Moscow. I was in Moscow. He said: "Swāmījī, there is no life after death." Just see. He's a big professor, and his knowledge is so imperfect that he says that there is no life after death. *So that is the position everywhere. Those who are teachers, they are with imperfect knowledge. The teachers in the universities, they are with imperfect knowledge. Now, life after death, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is very easily explained that just like a child has next life, boyhood; the boy has next life as youthhood; the youthhood has next life, the old age; so why not the old age next life? If we are passing through so many stages of life, from birth or from the womb of the mother, then what is the reason that one does not believe there is no life after death? Can you say, any one of you? What is the reason? You remember your boyhood body; I remember my youthhood body. So that body is no longer existing, but I am existing. I remember my childhood body. My babyhood body also I remember, particularly. When I was about six months old, I still remember very vividly, I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister, and she was knitting. I remember still. Dai Nippon Rep: Six months? Prabhupāda: Yes, six months. I remember when I was only about one year old, there was a great saṅkīrtana in our house, and I was . . . I also joined the dancing party. And I was seeing up to their knees, very small. So I remember those days. And then after that, I was a boy. I was very much fond of cycling. So many things. Yes. So many dangers, so many adventures. Now I am old man. So all those different stages of body, I remember. But these bodies are not existing. So similarly, I remember or forget, but I was in different types of body—that's a fact. So similarly, after leaving this body, I will have another body. That is natural conclusion. What is the difficulty? Why I shall conclude that after end of this body, there will be no body? Why I shall conclude like this? I have got experience that I have passed though so many different forms of body, but I am existing, although the bodies are not existing. Similarly, in my past life I must have had another body. But . . . that is the law of nature. We get from the book of knowledge that a living entity is injected through the father's semina to the mother's womb, and that that living entity develops a certain type of body. The mother supplies the ingredient. So according to the mother's body, the body is prepared. And when it is matured to come out, it comes out. This is very important part of knowledge. But there is no educational system to understand this important part of knowledge. So we are distributing not a system of religion, but a very important department of knowledge, which human society requires to understand. Don't take it that is a system of religion or faith. No. It is a important department of knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. ( japa ) Anything more you want? No. That's all right. (pause) Devotee: They want to know . . . they don't want to take any more of Prabhupāda's time . . . (indistinct) Karandhara: We can discuss outside. Prabhupāda: So I can go? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So thank you very much for your coming. Devotee: Thank you very much. (end) Conversation -- May 5, 1972, Kyoto Pradyumna: (reading from dictionary) "Chance." It's a noun and adjective. "1. The way things fall out. Fortune, undesigned occurrence, opportunity, possibility, probability. Especially in plural, as 'the chances are against him.' Absence of design or discoverable cause. Course of events regarded as a power, fate. 'By chance': as it falls or fell out, without design. 'On the chance': in view of the possibility. 'Take one's chance': let things go as they may; consent to take what comes." Prabhupāda: So it can be adjusted with the meanings of chance and necessity. I want something; that is my necessity. And it will come by chance? Or I have to endeavor for it, and then I get it? Shall I depend on chance? I have a necessity for something. So should I wait for the chance? Śyāmasundara: We've always been taught, "No. You must work very hard toward . . ." Prabhupāda: So where is the waiting for chance? There is plan. If I have to work to get the thing, then it is plan. Pradyumna: If they follow their philosophy to the conclusion . . . they would have to be completely dependent, if they followed the philosophy to the conclusion. Prabhupāda: If the chance comes as soon as the necessity is there, then we have to admit immediately God. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yes. Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā we hear, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam ( BG 15.15), God is in everyone's heart, as Supersoul. Now, I am thinking of getting something. So God knows immediately that, "He wants to have this," so He gives me the necessary thing, which appear to me as chance without knowing God. The things are supplied by God because He is giving me all facilities to enjoy this material world to my heart's content by supplying all the ingredients. That is the material condition. So these foolish persons are taking as chance, but it is not chance. God is omnipotent. As soon as He understands that I want this, He gives me some facility so that I get it. So it is not chance. It is by arrangement of superior authority. But because they are atheist, they have no sense of God consciousness, they are taking as chance, that necessity creates that chance; automatically it is coming. Not automatically. Chance does not mean automatically. I cannot see something, but all of a sudden falls . . . just like I am hungry, I want some food. So Kṛṣṇa knows it that you want some . . . some way or other, the food comes to me. So it is the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa, but I see it is chance: "I was hungry, and by chance the food has come." That is my less intelligence. It is not chance; it is plan. Otherwise, you cannot adjust the meaning of chance in that way, that as soon as there is necessity, immediately the opportune chance comes before us. Śyāmasundara: They say: "Well, it's my luck," or "My bad luck." Prabhupāda: Yes. They say. So this "luck," as soon as you say, "luck" there must be somebody who is giving you the luck, good luck or bad luck. Śyāmasundara: One man may desire something very badly, and his whole life long he will not get it. He will always say: "Oh, I am so unlucky." Prabhupāda: Because he is not fit to get it, so God does not supply it. So we do not take anything as chance. We take everything as plan. But because God's omnipotency is so subtle, we cannot see how things happen. Therefore we say: "It is a chance, chance of physical arrangement." Just like in the airport, as soon I step on the door it becomes opened. It is not chance. A child will see it is a chance: "Oh, how it is? I wanted to go, and the door is already opened." He takes it a chance. That is poor fund of knowledge. There is arrangement, nice arrangement, electrical arrangement. So to a poor fund of knowledge it becomes a chance, and to the sober mind it is not chance; it is arranged by higher authority. Another opposite point is nobody wants to die. Why the chance of death comes? Nobody wants to die. If that argument is taken, necessity—I want to die, and the death comes—then it is applicable. But I do not want to die. Why death comes? There is no necessity of my death, but why the death comes? Then where this argument will be? Śyāmasundara: Oh, there's no necessity. There's no necessity for death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die. So why death comes? Śyāmasundara: But they will say that because it is physically worn out, finished, material is finished, then it will die. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is a question of chance and necessity. Nobody feels the necessity of death. Why death comes, unless it is planned? Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Their argument is that physical necessity creates a chance, and we take advantage of the chance. But here there is no necessity. Nobody wants to die, nobody wants disease. Why these chances are coming to us without any necessity? Śyāmasundara: If, for instance, in nature they saw a tree growing, they would say that by necessity this tree must die in order to replenish the soil so more trees can grow. Prabhupāda: Then there is plan. As soon as you say that more trees can grow, that means there is plan. You cannot say chance. Śyāmasundara: Nature can't be chance. If so many plants . . . *Prabhupāda: That plan is Kṛṣṇa's. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My plan, under My superintendence, the nature is working. The changes of the world is going on for that reason." Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate : "All these changes are taking place on account of My supervision." So there is no question of chance. It is all planned, planned by the Supreme, daiva netreṇa , by superior arrangement. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't necessity mean plan? Necessity? Prabhupāda: Necessity means for a foolish person like me, I want something. That is my necessity, and God supplies me. "Man proposes, God disposes." And that reception, or that my achievement, being without explained by me, I take it as a chance. Because I cannot explain it, therefore I take . . . just like the same example: the flower is fructifying. We are saying because we do not see how the working is going on. Śyāmasundara: Like you defined "miracle" like that before once. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nothing like miracle. Everything is done. But it is done so, I mean to say, subtle way that we cannot understand. We take it chance. The same example—just like a child steps before the door, it opens. He thinks, "Oh, by chance the door is opened." But it is not by chance. It is a plan. Śyāmasundara: By necessity. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Necessity you have to go, and it is already done. And as soon as you step on the floor, the door opens. So those who are less intelligent, they are taking it as chance that, "I came here. I wanted to go out. The door is by chance open." That is less intelligence. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So before the necessity, there is a plan. Previous to the necessity there is a plan. I see. Prabhupāda: No, before the necessity, whoever will feel necessity, the chance is there, the arrangement is there. He knows that . . . just like there may be hundreds and thousands of necessities, and for each necessity there is a planned performance. Śyāmasundara: There is that saying: "Where there is a will there is a way." Prabhupāda: But we . . . you can think of this willingness in different hundred and thousands of ways. That is known to God, and there is already plan. If somebody wills like that, the chance is given. This is plan. Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's right. Prabhupāda: Because God knows beyond this willing orbit, nobody can think of. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He thought that, "I can save myself by this way. I shall not die at night, in daytime, or I shall not die in the sky. I shall not die in the water. I shall not die on land. No man can kill me. No animal can kill me. No demigod can kill me." In this way he thought, "Oh." But still, keeping all the promises, he was made to die. So there is no such thing as chance without plan. Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of "necessity." It says that, "It is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action." Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be . . . God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. He thinks, "Oh, so . . ." (break) It is different types. (break) The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities. Bhūrijana: The difference is that the human living entities have higher intelligence because of their body. Prabhupāda: That is the question that, "Who has given you high intelligence and not to the rats and cats?" Pradyumna: You said in one place, "Man is the architect of his own happiness and distress." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is an axiomatic truth even by the modern man. Yes that, "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So as soon as there is work to make your fortune, then there must be a person to decide to give you a fortunate position. Just like in an establishment, so many men are working, but there is a president. He is considering the work file, "How this man has worked?" And he is being promoted, his salary is being increased; and somebody is degraded, no promotion, rather, transferred in some other place. So natural conclusion is when there are so many varieties of life in our presence, and they are, although in the same place, they haven't got the same facility, so there must be somebody who decides on this point. So how you can deny God? Our point is the Supreme Person, the president, who decides on this fact, He is God. What is the opposite answer? Pradyumna: They would say that you are in your position and they are in their position just by chance, just like . . . Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. This is sheer nonsense. There is nothing by chance. What is that chance? By chance one is becoming millionaire, and a chance, one is becoming cockroaches. What is that chance? Explain that chance. It is evasive. It is most foolish reply, "Chance." We have got this nice apartment. Is it by chance? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Bhūrijana: There's never an example of chance. Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. People are befooled by all this philosophy. Bhūrijana: Albert Einstein, he said that, "I cannot believe that the highest material principle is chance." He's a material scientist. He said: "I cannot believe." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Actually, if one is actually learned, scientific, he must admit. He must admit, unless he is a lunatic, rascal. He will say all these nonsense things, "Chance." Why chance? What is taking place within your practical experience by chance? If by prearrangement we would not come here, then who would care for it? Even on the street we could not lie down. Nobody allow. The police will arrest: "Who are these men?" How do you say chance? Everything is done by prearrangement. The chance is an explanation given by the rascals and fools. They are not sane men. There cannot be anything by chance. We got up on the train, and the train is running, and it is all chance? There is a huge management behind the train. Therefore we are comfortably seated, and we come to the destination right in the time. All these are chances? What is that . . .? He has written such a big book. What is his reason that chance? What reason he has given? I have not read. You have read? Pradyumna: No. Śyāmasundara: Well, necessity . . . necessity . . . Prabhupāda: Necessity means I arrange. There was a necessity to come to this city, so he arranged. So how it is chance? Śyāmasundara: They would . . . their answer is that there was a necessity to go to the city, so we would have tried hundreds of different ways to come here, and by chance, eventually we would have found the . . . Prabhupāda: No. We have not tried hundreds of others. There was a plan. Sudāmā: But even where does . . . in my mind, if I hear the word "chance," where does chance . . . how does chance come about, if there is such a thing? Prabhupāda: No. The rascal says that I am trying in so many ways; one of them by chance becomes favorable. But I am not working in so many ways. We had a plan, to come here, to preach. So according to that plan, we arranged with this man. And it is not chance; it is all prearranged. Where is that I am trying this way or that way? We are going to preach. There is a plan. So our men go before that, before my reaching there, and they make nice arrangement, nice apartment. Then they receive me. These are not chances. This is all prearranged, plan. Bhūrijana: They say that . . . but they don't acknowledge the plan. Prabhupāda: Why they don't acknowledge? Everything is being done by plan. The rascal who is speaking like that, he is educated by a plan, by his parents. And therefore he is able now to talk nonsense and get the Nobel Prize for talking all these rascals. His education was planned. Sudāmā: Just like his book was planned, so now he is given the Nobel Prize. He won't say: "By chance I won." Prabhupāda: Yes. His plan to misguide the people, that is a plan. Bhūrijana: They say that change is the principle. They say that change is the highest principle, and out of so many different changes . . . Prabhupāda: No. How the change takes place? *Bhūrijana: Change. Change. C*-h-a-n-g-e. Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old? What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledg, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? *We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is Brahminical qualification. A Brāhmin will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A Śūdra will accept, because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between Brāhmin and Śūdra . It is not a caste system. It is classi . . . guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali*-yuga everyone is Śūdra , so he does not know what is the actually Brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done? I am as good as he is, and why he should be called Brāhmin , he should be given greater facility?" *So actually it has happened so. A so*-called Brāhmin , caste Brāhmin , he is working his intelligence like Śūdra , and he is claiming, by birthright, Brāhmin . There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ . Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes Brāhmin . That is the injunction of the śāstra . Kṛṣṇa says, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ . You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a Brāhmin ? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga . He never said: "By birth." Never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ . "In this age, Kali-yuga, all Śūdras ." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the Śūdras . Śyāmasundara: Cheaply and at once? *Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that, "Mr. such*-and-such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten-cent-worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān (BG 9.25): "One who can . . . one can go to the demigods' planet by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān , as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me," mad yājino 'pi yānti mām . So they never worshiped Candra, and how they can go to the Candra planet, moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect; they become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest. Sudāmā: They have not gone. Prabhupāda: They have not gone. We have got our test. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see, even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simply planning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shall have defense from there." Simply bluffing. Simply bluffing. The Americans should go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsense proposal. What defense they will do from there? Is it not the proposal? Yes. Śyāmasundara: This morning you were saying that civilization means peace. So this is no civilization. Prabhupāda: This is no civilization. Bhūrijana: We must become convinced. Prabhupāda: Thing, so Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said: *Jaḍa*-vidyā , this material advancement, jaḍa vidyā , they are simply stumbling blocks for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The more one is enamored by this so-called material advancement, the more he is disqualified to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because time we have got limited. If we waste our time for so-called material advantages, then we spoil our time. We cannot utilize the time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is the necessity of human life. Therefore, in the history of India there is opulence, but that opulence is of different kind. By nature they used to enjoy life—enough jewels, enough gold, enough silk, enough food, enough metals. You see? By natural product. They could find where there is a big hill of gold only. These are there. And actually gold is found in some mine within the material arrangement. Why there should not be any hill of gold? As there are hills of stone and marble, why not gold? You do not know. Your utensils are only plastic, which is worth nothing. So that was their material advancement: gold, silver, jewels, corals, sapphire, diamond. Just see Kṛṣṇa's palace described. Not these rascal chairs, cushions, but with ivory, gold. And the cushion is as soft as the foam of milk. (laughter) These things are description there. And the rooms are bedecked with jewels. You don't require this electric light at night. And outside, these parijāta flowers. You have read all this? *Pradyumna: Mandara*-kuṇḍa. Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo, Kobe, in Japan . . . there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working, and they are living in this nice buildings. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not? Bhānu: It is true. Prabhupāda: Then where is your advancement? You supply everyone palatial building like this. Why they are living in the matchboxes? Why they are eating cats and dogs? One thing, if you don't believe in God, then you give them. But you cannot give. Then who has given them? Nobody wants to live in the matchbox. Why he is living in the matchbox and you are living in a nice house? Is it all a chance? He is not struggling? He is not making his plan that, "I shall also live," just like the Communists. But he could not. We went to Moscow. They have no nice building made by the Communist people. All big, big, old buildings that is made, constructed by Czar. Not a single building I saw which was constructed by the Communist government. Śyāmasundara: They all live in matchboxes too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: In Russia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you . . . even if you are able to give everyone nice building and nice motorcar . . . already a few motorcars you have got, there is scarcity of space, from practical point of view. Ninety*-nine percent of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motorcars, it has created problem—where to park the motorcar? How to supply petrol? Śyāmasundara: In America now practically everyone has a house and a car. But now the problem is no one wants to work. Prabhupāda: That's it. (laughs) Just see. And he is satisfied to remain as urchin, the hippies. Devotees: Yes. The sons. Prabhupāda: They feel pleasure to remain as an urchin. Sudāmā: As their father supplies them with money and motorcar. Pradyumna: He built this house, and this house had a very nice view over the whole place. But another man built another building here. And now the view is . . . right next to, he built this building. That's why this apartment is vacant. Śyāmasundara: No one will live here. The apartments are vacant. Sudāmā: He's losing money. Śyāmasundara: Someone has built in front of him. Pradyumna: He had view over whole city. This was the biggest building, I think, and he said he had view everywhere. Now someone built one right up, right next to him. Bhūrijana: In the United States, the most amazing thing is that everyone is envious. The general population is envious of the hippies because they all want to do that. The ones who are working so hard, they want to be the ones who are just getting fed and do nothing and enjoy sex. This is . . . but then when the hippies have it, they say bad things about them. Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not . . . Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all. Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification, and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising. Prabhupāda: That we have . . . we say in our śāstra that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs—better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. You see? Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately, "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification. Sudāmā: So better to become hog and dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hog . . . the hog has no restriction, mother, sister or anyone. You have seen? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: The child hog is raising on the body of the mother, although a child. They are so sexually inclined. Sometimes they are having sexual intercourse with the mother. So you take this facility. If you want better facility for sex life, just become hog. So nature is giving the facility: "All right, come on. You eat anything, without any discrimination. Here is stool. And you can have sex life without any discrimination, your mother or sister. Come on." Śyāmasundara: So the hippies have adopted that philosophy, hog philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They have sex life anywhere, anytime, anyone. Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many books, they are advocating that, "You can have sex life. It doesn't matter whether it is mother or sister or daughter. Why should be the restriction there? It is bodily necessity, that's all." They are advocating. There are so many books. You do not know? Huh? Sudāmā: Yes, there are. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are books. In India, what to speak of other, in India some European or American book was written on the theme that a man fell in love with his daughter. And that book is the greatest . . . highest selling book. What is that book? You know? Śyāmasundara: Lolita? There was one, Lolita it was called, about . . . Sudāmā: The same theme. Śyāmasundara: The same theme. Sudāmā: It was also very popular in America. *Śyāmasundara: One of the most popular books of all. Some man and a twelve*-year-old niece, nephew, daughter? *Pradyumna: Adopted daughter. Step*-daughter. Prabhupāda: Adopted daughter, niece, we have practically seen. I knew one man, Gupta. Gurudāsa met him in Delhi. So he was old man, about four years younger than me, very rich man. So I used to visit sometimes his house. He was friendly. So one day I saw one young girl. So I enquired, "Who is this young girl?" "No, she is my adopted daughter. I have no . . ." He had no daughters—all sons, grown up. "So I have no daughter, so I have adopted her as my daughter." I thought, "That's all right." Some day after, one day I went there, I saw that his wife was not there. So his wife has left home on some complaint. And then I understood that that man was implicated with that daughter. So the wife, under protest, has left. There are many rascals who open girls' schools with the contract with the head mistress that she will supply young girls. Convent school. This is going on. So all these greatness are terminating in sex life, and they are making arrangement, plan. And he says there is no plan. Even for his ordinary living he is making plan, and he says there is no plan. Śyāmasundara: So because they want better and better sex life, they have to compete and get better and better apartments. Because the nice girls will not go to the shabby apartment. They will only go to a nice apartment. Prabhupāda: Oh. Night girls. Śyāmasundara: Nice girls, nicer, more beautiful girls will only go to the most beautiful apartment. So there is competition. Sudāmā: Everyone is competing. Now the girls, they want handsome man, so man is trying to get his face fixed and buy new clothes and . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Trying to keep himself young. Sudāmā: Trying to keep himself young, yes. Bhūrijana: So we must propagate your message very loud. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūrijana: Very loud. We must sing Hare Kṛṣṇa very loud . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: . . . so everyone can hear. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 5, 1972, Kyoto Pradyumna: (reading from dictionary) "Chance." It's a noun and adjective. "1. The way things fall out. Fortune, undesigned occurrence, opportunity, possibility, probability. Especially in plural, as 'the chances are against him.' Absence of design or discoverable cause. Course of events regarded as a power, fate. 'By chance': as it falls or fell out, without design. 'On the chance': in view of the possibility. 'Take one's chance': let things go as they may; consent to take what comes." Prabhupāda: So it can be adjusted with the meanings of chance and necessity. I want something; that is my necessity. And it will come by chance? Or I have to endeavor for it, and then I get it? Shall I depend on chance? I have a necessity for something. So should I wait for the chance? Śyāmasundara: We've always been taught, "No. You must work very hard toward . . ." Prabhupāda: So where is the waiting for chance? There is plan. If I have to work to get the thing, then it is plan. Pradyumna: If they follow their philosophy to the conclusion . . . they would have to be completely dependent, if they followed the philosophy to the conclusion. Prabhupāda: If the chance comes as soon as the necessity is there, then we have to admit immediately God. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yes. Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā we hear, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam ( BG 15.15), God is in everyone's heart, as Supersoul. Now, I am thinking of getting something. So God knows immediately that, "He wants to have this," so He gives me the necessary thing, which appear to me as chance without knowing God. The things are supplied by God because He is giving me all facilities to enjoy this material world to my heart's content by supplying all the ingredients. That is the material condition. So these foolish persons are taking as chance, but it is not chance. God is omnipotent. As soon as He understands that I want this, He gives me some facility so that I get it. So it is not chance. It is by arrangement of superior authority. But because they are atheist, they have no sense of God consciousness, they are taking as chance, that necessity creates that chance; automatically it is coming. Not automatically. Chance does not mean automatically. I cannot see something, but all of a sudden falls . . . just like I am hungry, I want some food. So Kṛṣṇa knows it that you want some . . . some way or other, the food comes to me. So it is the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa, but I see it is chance: "I was hungry, and by chance the food has come." That is my less intelligence. It is not chance; it is plan. Otherwise, you cannot adjust the meaning of chance in that way, that as soon as there is necessity, immediately the opportune chance comes before us. Śyāmasundara: They say: "Well, it's my luck," or "My bad luck." Prabhupāda: Yes. They say. So this "luck," as soon as you say, "luck" there must be somebody who is giving you the luck, good luck or bad luck. Śyāmasundara: One man may desire something very badly, and his whole life long he will not get it. He will always say: "Oh, I am so unlucky." Prabhupāda: Because he is not fit to get it, so God does not supply it. So we do not take anything as chance. We take everything as plan. But because God's omnipotency is so subtle, we cannot see how things happen. Therefore we say: "It is a chance, chance of physical arrangement." Just like in the airport, as soon I step on the door it becomes opened. It is not chance. A child will see it is a chance: "Oh, how it is? I wanted to go, and the door is already opened." He takes it a chance. That is poor fund of knowledge. There is arrangement, nice arrangement, electrical arrangement. So to a poor fund of knowledge it becomes a chance, and to the sober mind it is not chance; it is arranged by higher authority. Another opposite point is nobody wants to die. Why the chance of death comes? Nobody wants to die. If that argument is taken, necessity—I want to die, and the death comes—then it is applicable. But I do not want to die. Why death comes? There is no necessity of my death, but why the death comes? Then where this argument will be? Śyāmasundara: Oh, there's no necessity. There's no necessity for death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die. So why death comes? Śyāmasundara: But they will say that because it is physically worn out, finished, material is finished, then it will die. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is a question of chance and necessity. Nobody feels the necessity of death. Why death comes, unless it is planned? Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Their argument is that physical necessity creates a chance, and we take advantage of the chance. But here there is no necessity. Nobody wants to die, nobody wants disease. Why these chances are coming to us without any necessity? Śyāmasundara: If, for instance, in nature they saw a tree growing, they would say that by necessity this tree must die in order to replenish the soil so more trees can grow. Prabhupāda: Then there is plan. As soon as you say that more trees can grow, that means there is plan. You cannot say chance. Śyāmasundara: Nature can't be chance. If so many plants . . . *Prabhupāda: That plan is Kṛṣṇa's. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My plan, under My superintendence, the nature is working. The changes of the world is going on for that reason." Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate : "All these changes are taking place on account of My supervision." So there is no question of chance. It is all planned, planned by the Supreme, daiva netreṇa , by superior arrangement. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't necessity mean plan? Necessity? Prabhupāda: Necessity means for a foolish person like me, I want something. That is my necessity, and God supplies me. "Man proposes, God disposes." And that reception, or that my achievement, being without explained by me, I take it as a chance. Because I cannot explain it, therefore I take . . . just like the same example: the flower is fructifying. We are saying because we do not see how the working is going on. Śyāmasundara: Like you defined "miracle" like that before once. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nothing like miracle. Everything is done. But it is done so, I mean to say, subtle way that we cannot understand. We take it chance. The same example—just like a child steps before the door, it opens. He thinks, "Oh, by chance the door is opened." But it is not by chance. It is a plan. Śyāmasundara: By necessity. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Necessity you have to go, and it is already done. And as soon as you step on the floor, the door opens. So those who are less intelligent, they are taking it as chance that, "I came here. I wanted to go out. The door is by chance open." That is less intelligence. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So before the necessity, there is a plan. Previous to the necessity there is a plan. I see. Prabhupāda: No, before the necessity, whoever will feel necessity, the chance is there, the arrangement is there. He knows that . . . just like there may be hundreds and thousands of necessities, and for each necessity there is a planned performance. Śyāmasundara: There is that saying: "Where there is a will there is a way." Prabhupāda: But we . . . you can think of this willingness in different hundred and thousands of ways. That is known to God, and there is already plan. If somebody wills like that, the chance is given. This is plan. Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's right. Prabhupāda: Because God knows beyond this willing orbit, nobody can think of. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He thought that, "I can save myself by this way. I shall not die at night, in daytime, or I shall not die in the sky. I shall not die in the water. I shall not die on land. No man can kill me. No animal can kill me. No demigod can kill me." In this way he thought, "Oh." But still, keeping all the promises, he was made to die. So there is no such thing as chance without plan. Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of "necessity." It says that, "It is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action." Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be . . . God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. He thinks, "Oh, so . . ." (break) It is different types. (break) The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities. Bhūrijana: The difference is that the human living entities have higher intelligence because of their body. Prabhupāda: That is the question that, "Who has given you high intelligence and not to the rats and cats?" Pradyumna: You said in one place, "Man is the architect of his own happiness and distress." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is an axiomatic truth even by the modern man. Yes that, "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So as soon as there is work to make your fortune, then there must be a person to decide to give you a fortunate position. Just like in an establishment, so many men are working, but there is a president. He is considering the work file, "How this man has worked?" And he is being promoted, his salary is being increased; and somebody is degraded, no promotion, rather, transferred in some other place. So natural conclusion is when there are so many varieties of life in our presence, and they are, although in the same place, they haven't got the same facility, so there must be somebody who decides on this point. So how you can deny God? Our point is the Supreme Person, the president, who decides on this fact, He is God. What is the opposite answer? Pradyumna: They would say that you are in your position and they are in their position just by chance, just like . . . Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. This is sheer nonsense. There is nothing by chance. What is that chance? By chance one is becoming millionaire, and a chance, one is becoming cockroaches. What is that chance? Explain that chance. It is evasive. It is most foolish reply, "Chance." We have got this nice apartment. Is it by chance? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Bhūrijana: There's never an example of chance. Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. People are befooled by all this philosophy. Bhūrijana: Albert Einstein, he said that, "I cannot believe that the highest material principle is chance." He's a material scientist. He said: "I cannot believe." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Actually, if one is actually learned, scientific, he must admit. He must admit, unless he is a lunatic, rascal. He will say all these nonsense things, "Chance." Why chance? What is taking place within your practical experience by chance? If by prearrangement we would not come here, then who would care for it? Even on the street we could not lie down. Nobody allow. The police will arrest: "Who are these men?" How do you say chance? Everything is done by prearrangement. The chance is an explanation given by the rascals and fools. They are not sane men. There cannot be anything by chance. We got up on the train, and the train is running, and it is all chance? There is a huge management behind the train. Therefore we are comfortably seated, and we come to the destination right in the time. All these are chances? What is that . . .? He has written such a big book. What is his reason that chance? What reason he has given? I have not read. You have read? Pradyumna: No. Śyāmasundara: Well, necessity . . . necessity . . . Prabhupāda: Necessity means I arrange. There was a necessity to come to this city, so he arranged. So how it is chance? Śyāmasundara: They would . . . their answer is that there was a necessity to go to the city, so we would have tried hundreds of different ways to come here, and by chance, eventually we would have found the . . . Prabhupāda: No. We have not tried hundreds of others. There was a plan. Sudāmā: But even where does . . . in my mind, if I hear the word "chance," where does chance . . . how does chance come about, if there is such a thing? Prabhupāda: No. The rascal says that I am trying in so many ways; one of them by chance becomes favorable. But I am not working in so many ways. We had a plan, to come here, to preach. So according to that plan, we arranged with this man. And it is not chance; it is all prearranged. Where is that I am trying this way or that way? We are going to preach. There is a plan. So our men go before that, before my reaching there, and they make nice arrangement, nice apartment. Then they receive me. These are not chances. This is all prearranged, plan. Bhūrijana: They say that . . . but they don't acknowledge the plan. Prabhupāda: Why they don't acknowledge? Everything is being done by plan. The rascal who is speaking like that, he is educated by a plan, by his parents. And therefore he is able now to talk nonsense and get the Nobel Prize for talking all these rascals. His education was planned. Sudāmā: Just like his book was planned, so now he is given the Nobel Prize. He won't say: "By chance I won." Prabhupāda: Yes. His plan to misguide the people, that is a plan. Bhūrijana: They say that change is the principle. They say that change is the highest principle, and out of so many different changes . . . Prabhupāda: No. How the change takes place? *Bhūrijana: Change. Change. C*-h-a-n-g-e. Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old? What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledg, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? *We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is Brahminical qualification. A Brāhmin will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A Śūdra will accept, because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between Brāhmin and Śūdra . It is not a caste system. It is classi . . . guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali*-yuga everyone is Śūdra , so he does not know what is the actually Brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done? I am as good as he is, and why he should be called Brāhmin , he should be given greater facility?" *So actually it has happened so. A so*-called Brāhmin , caste Brāhmin , he is working his intelligence like Śūdra , and he is claiming, by birthright, Brāhmin . There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ . Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes Brāhmin . That is the injunction of the śāstra . Kṛṣṇa says, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ . You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a Brāhmin ? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga . He never said: "By birth." Never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ . "In this age, Kali-yuga, all Śūdras ." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the Śūdras . Śyāmasundara: Cheaply and at once? *Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that, "Mr. such*-and-such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten-cent-worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān (BG 9.25): "One who can . . . one can go to the demigods' planet by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān , as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me," mad yājino 'pi yānti mām . So they never worshiped Candra, and how they can go to the Candra planet, moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect; they become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest. Sudāmā: They have not gone. Prabhupāda: They have not gone. We have got our test. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see, even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simply planning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shall have defense from there." Simply bluffing. Simply bluffing. The Americans should go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsense proposal. What defense they will do from there? Is it not the proposal? Yes. Śyāmasundara: This morning you were saying that civilization means peace. So this is no civilization. Prabhupāda: This is no civilization. Bhūrijana: We must become convinced. Prabhupāda: Thing, so Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said: *Jaḍa*-vidyā , this material advancement, jaḍa vidyā , they are simply stumbling blocks for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The more one is enamored by this so-called material advancement, the more he is disqualified to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because time we have got limited. If we waste our time for so-called material advantages, then we spoil our time. We cannot utilize the time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is the necessity of human life. Therefore, in the history of India there is opulence, but that opulence is of different kind. By nature they used to enjoy life—enough jewels, enough gold, enough silk, enough food, enough metals. You see? By natural product. They could find where there is a big hill of gold only. These are there. And actually gold is found in some mine within the material arrangement. Why there should not be any hill of gold? As there are hills of stone and marble, why not gold? You do not know. Your utensils are only plastic, which is worth nothing. So that was their material advancement: gold, silver, jewels, corals, sapphire, diamond. Just see Kṛṣṇa's palace described. Not these rascal chairs, cushions, but with ivory, gold. And the cushion is as soft as the foam of milk. (laughter) These things are description there. And the rooms are bedecked with jewels. You don't require this electric light at night. And outside, these parijāta flowers. You have read all this? *Pradyumna: Mandara*-kuṇḍa. Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo, Kobe, in Japan . . . there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working, and they are living in this nice buildings. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not? Bhānu: It is true. Prabhupāda: Then where is your advancement? You supply everyone palatial building like this. Why they are living in the matchboxes? Why they are eating cats and dogs? One thing, if you don't believe in God, then you give them. But you cannot give. Then who has given them? Nobody wants to live in the matchbox. Why he is living in the matchbox and you are living in a nice house? Is it all a chance? He is not struggling? He is not making his plan that, "I shall also live," just like the Communists. But he could not. We went to Moscow. They have no nice building made by the Communist people. All big, big, old buildings that is made, constructed by Czar. Not a single building I saw which was constructed by the Communist government. Śyāmasundara: They all live in matchboxes too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: In Russia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you . . . even if you are able to give everyone nice building and nice motorcar . . . already a few motorcars you have got, there is scarcity of space, from practical point of view. Ninety*-nine percent of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motorcars, it has created problem—where to park the motorcar? How to supply petrol? Śyāmasundara: In America now practically everyone has a house and a car. But now the problem is no one wants to work. Prabhupāda: That's it. (laughs) Just see. And he is satisfied to remain as urchin, the hippies. Devotees: Yes. The sons. Prabhupāda: They feel pleasure to remain as an urchin. Sudāmā: As their father supplies them with money and motorcar. Pradyumna: He built this house, and this house had a very nice view over the whole place. But another man built another building here. And now the view is . . . right next to, he built this building. That's why this apartment is vacant. Śyāmasundara: No one will live here. The apartments are vacant. Sudāmā: He's losing money. Śyāmasundara: Someone has built in front of him. Pradyumna: He had view over whole city. This was the biggest building, I think, and he said he had view everywhere. Now someone built one right up, right next to him. Bhūrijana: In the United States, the most amazing thing is that everyone is envious. The general population is envious of the hippies because they all want to do that. The ones who are working so hard, they want to be the ones who are just getting fed and do nothing and enjoy sex. This is . . . but then when the hippies have it, they say bad things about them. Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not . . . Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all. Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification, and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising. Prabhupāda: That we have . . . we say in our śāstra that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs—better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. You see? Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately, "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification. Sudāmā: So better to become hog and dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hog . . . the hog has no restriction, mother, sister or anyone. You have seen? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: The child hog is raising on the body of the mother, although a child. They are so sexually inclined. Sometimes they are having sexual intercourse with the mother. So you take this facility. If you want better facility for sex life, just become hog. So nature is giving the facility: "All right, come on. You eat anything, without any discrimination. Here is stool. And you can have sex life without any discrimination, your mother or sister. Come on." Śyāmasundara: So the hippies have adopted that philosophy, hog philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They have sex life anywhere, anytime, anyone. Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many books, they are advocating that, "You can have sex life. It doesn't matter whether it is mother or sister or daughter. Why should be the restriction there? It is bodily necessity, that's all." They are advocating. There are so many books. You do not know? Huh? Sudāmā: Yes, there are. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are books. In India, what to speak of other, in India some European or American book was written on the theme that a man fell in love with his daughter. And that book is the greatest . . . highest selling book. What is that book? You know? Śyāmasundara: Lolita? There was one, Lolita it was called, about . . . Sudāmā: The same theme. Śyāmasundara: The same theme. Sudāmā: It was also very popular in America. *Śyāmasundara: One of the most popular books of all. Some man and a twelve*-year-old niece, nephew, daughter? *Pradyumna: Adopted daughter. Step*-daughter. Prabhupāda: Adopted daughter, niece, we have practically seen. I knew one man, Gupta. Gurudāsa met him in Delhi. So he was old man, about four years younger than me, very rich man. So I used to visit sometimes his house. He was friendly. So one day I saw one young girl. So I enquired, "Who is this young girl?" "No, she is my adopted daughter. I have no . . ." He had no daughters—all sons, grown up. "So I have no daughter, so I have adopted her as my daughter." I thought, "That's all right." Some day after, one day I went there, I saw that his wife was not there. So his wife has left home on some complaint. And then I understood that that man was implicated with that daughter. So the wife, under protest, has left. There are many rascals who open girls' schools with the contract with the head mistress that she will supply young girls. Convent school. This is going on. So all these greatness are terminating in sex life, and they are making arrangement, plan. And he says there is no plan. Even for his ordinary living he is making plan, and he says there is no plan. Śyāmasundara: So because they want better and better sex life, they have to compete and get better and better apartments. Because the nice girls will not go to the shabby apartment. They will only go to a nice apartment. Prabhupāda: Oh. Night girls. Śyāmasundara: Nice girls, nicer, more beautiful girls will only go to the most beautiful apartment. So there is competition. Sudāmā: Everyone is competing. Now the girls, they want handsome man, so man is trying to get his face fixed and buy new clothes and . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Trying to keep himself young. Sudāmā: Trying to keep himself young, yes. Bhūrijana: So we must propagate your message very loud. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūrijana: Very loud. We must sing Hare Kṛṣṇa very loud . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: . . . so everyone can hear. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 12, 1972, Honolulu *Prabhupāda: . . . a giant demon who could, er, I mean to say—what is called?—draw, or shove, or push the earthly planet into the water of Garbhodaka Ocean. He is not an ordinary being. But although he was very strong, just like mountain, the example is given, the mountain is broken into pieces by the thunderbolt. Everything is there in nature’s law, and by Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement. Nature is not independent. Nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram ( BG 9.10). (This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.) We may not be amazed when there is a big thunderbolt falling on the mountain and breaking into pieces. This wonderful act is being done by nature, but behind the nature the order is of Kṛṣṇa. So whenever there is mention of an incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa, there is specific duty. This is the specific duty. This is not possible to be done. When Lord Rāmacandra, His specific duty was to kill Rāvaṇa and to construct a bridge over the ocean, this is not possible by ordinary man. Similarly, incarnation means something done which is not possible by anybody else. That is the test. So anyone, rascal, comes . . . but ordinarily, there . . . because people are so poor in knowledge that any magic shown, they think this is not ordinary thing: "I cannot do it." Little magical feats makes the incarnation. But not so . . . that is ordinary. If a magician can show something, and if another person exhibits the same talent, that does not mean he has become God. Suppose if one man can walk on the ocean—that is of course not very ordinary thing—but there are many big, big ships, they are also moving on the ocean. So that does not mean one has become God. Very extraordinary work. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . to pick up the whole earthly planet from the depths of Garbhodaka Ocean. There is other reason. So in this way, every day it is . . . our Bhāgavata is there, and the transliteration is there, word meaning is there—they should be read. Not that it is meant for simply selling. That we should also read. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: There are so many verses. We have taken so much pain to transliterate them, to give them word meanings and the purports, plus they must be instructed, discourses. Sanskrit, when pronounced, the vibration will create an atmosphere, nice atmosphere, Sanskrit. These are not ordinary Sanskrit; *they are mantras . Every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , they are Vedic mantras . The chanting of Vedic mantras has its effect. Just like chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has effect, similarly these mantras also chanted congregationally, it will have so much effect. So in the morning I think these classes should be held. (pause) (Prabhupāda sings) (SB 12.13.1) So, any questions? Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says here in the purport, "A similar disturbance was created formerly by the demons headed by Hiraṇyākṣa, and the earth was detached from its weightless condition and fell down into the Garbhodaka Ocean." "The great exploiter of the gold rush"? Prabhupāda: What is that "Gold rush"? Gold rush? Śyāmasundara: Gold rush means to exploit gold from the earth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are after gold. They created some disturbance. Hiraṇya means "gold," Hiraṇya*-akṣa : "Whose eyes are only on the gold": "Where is gold?" Hiraṇyakaśipu, there is no question of money and women, that’s all. They are demons. The whole world is now full of demons only. They are after money and women, that’s all. Woman does not mean this form of woman. A man also can become women. If the two parties, one party is trying to enjoy the other party, that is man and women. It does not mean the form of women and man. Just like nowadays, in your country, the homosex is also introduced. So people are becoming so much degraded—simply after money and women. Money and women. These are Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa. They will spoil the whole world. And they are spoiling. That is the business of the demons. And our business is to create Vaiṣṇavas in amongst the demons. In Vaikuṇṭha, sura-asura acutya . Sura and asura , both of them. That is Vaikuṇṭha world. Asura can also be taught. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). *These are asuras , very lowborn, less than the śūdrās, kirāta*-hūṇ . . . but they can be also reformed, śudhyanti . They can be reformed. That is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that just like Hiraṇyākṣa, mining, demons drilling for oil, disturbing the floating condition of the earth. What will the result be? Prabhupāda: The result will be destruction. Ultimately this material world will be destroyed. (aside) What is those? Two buildings? Devotee (2): Those are military radar. Prabhupāda: So there is no thunderbolt on the radar? Devotee (3): They put lightning rods. *Prabhupāda: Oh. There is lightning. So many ways, they are trying to save. But nature will not allow them to be saved. They must die. But the struggle for existence is that everyone is demon. The Vaiṣṇava, they do not attempt like that. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). *Dehāntara*-prāptir , another achievement or another body. So a Vaiṣṇava is not disturbed. They simply reserve the prerogative to become a devotee. Never mind—next life. Hundreds of lives there may be. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4): "Never mind, I will take My birth one after another." But the demons, they do not believe in God or God’s service or next life. These are the demons. They are thinking that this is the chance for sense enjoyment. Therefore they are trying to save in so many ways and engage the duration of life, as much as possible, varieties of sense gratification. This is demon. They don't know that after this body is finished, everything. So here is an opportunity to enjoy sense gratification. Therefore they are manufacturing so many varieties of sense gratification. They have no hope. And the Christian religion also says that they will go to hell or they will go to heaven. Destined. You have read Bible? Devotee: (4) No. Prabhupāda: So one is destined to go to heaven? Devotee: (4) They’re teaching that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (4) They’re teaching that. Prabhupāda: Ah. That one is destined? Then what is the use of taking to Jesus Christ if I am destined to go to hell? Govinda dāsī: You can be saved from going to hell. Prabhupāda: Hah. Then say that even though one is destined, he can be saved. That should be the philosophy. Śyāmasundara: He does. St. Paul does say that. He says it’s a mystery that although we are destined, still we can be saved. *Prabhupāda: That is reasonable. Taking to shelter of God or God’s son, one is saved. That is reasonable. But what is this philosophy that one is destined to go to hell, one is destined to go to heaven? This philosophy is not very nice. Just like we quoted one verse, kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda : these are destined to go to hell. But śudhyanti , by the association of pure devotees, they can be purified. Śudhyanti. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ, ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18). However sinful maybe, never mind what is the magnitude of the sinful activities, śudhyanti : he can be purified by the pure devotee. So that is real knowledge. And what is this, that one is destined to go to hell, destined to go to heaven? Śyāmasundara: (to another devotee) Do you have a Bible? Maybe you should bring it here. Prabhupāda: There are many. Aurobindo’s . . . Aurobindo’s philosophy is also like that: Once you get human form of life, then you don’t degrade. (laughter) Pradyumna: Hmm. Theosophists also think like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, theosophists. They are similar. Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . his point was that if someone was in third grade and they don’t pass, then they don’t go down to second grade, but they just stay in third grade, and they may go on to fourth. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: If he is in a grade in school, he is in the first, second and third year of school, but if he does not go on to fourth year, he just stays in third, but he does not go back to second. But I . . . whatever they . . . therefore I always say that if someone in school, he may not go on to fourth, but he may be so bad that he’s thrown out of school altogether, what to speak of going back to second. *Prabhupāda: That is his creation—his concoction, his creation. But Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāpti : transformation of another body. So another body may be in the second class or third class or any class. Dehāntara . Never says human body. Human body is guaranteed only for the yogīs , those who are trying to advance spiritually. Their next body is guaranteed, human being. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41). *But others, dehāntara*-prāpti , another transformation of body. And that is confirmed also, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke (BG 8.6): *At the time of death the mental condition will give you another body. There is proof also, just like Mahārāja Bharata. He was advancing in spiritual life—he left his kingdom—but at the time of death he was thinking of a deer, so he became a deer. Such an advanced . . . of course, he did not forget himself. Therefore he was speaking always amongst the saintly persons, their association. He was remembering that "I was King Bharata. Now I have assumed this body." But the nature’s process is that at the time of death, whatever you think, you get a body like that. So how is again guaranteed? It is guaranteed for yogīs . Either jñāna*-yogīs, haṭha-yogīs . . . (indistinct) . . . yogīs , Their whole life they devote, maybe impersonal Brahman, so he can be merged into the impersonal feature of the Lord. Paramātmā. The yogīs , all kinds of yogīs , they are guaranteed next life. And all these yogīs , after many, many such births, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), he becomes a devotee. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ : such saintly person is very rare. Brahmaṇi pasamāsana : taking shelter of the Supreme. (pause) So, Govinda dāsī, how are you feeling? All right? Govinda dāsī: Better. Resting nicely. (pause) Prabhupāda: Their bricks are not so . . . not so, not eleven inches. They are eight inches only. Śyāmasundara: Yes, eight inches. Prabhupāda: In India the bricks are eleven inches . . . (indistinct conversation) Devotee (1): The bricks are brought in by boat. Very expensive to build things here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is Americans who can develop such islands. Otherwise . . . Govinda dāsī: The other islands are not so developed. They’re very rural, very country. Except for a couple of cities, it’s all countryside and cows. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these are gardenias. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: These are gardenias. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation) Śyāmasundara: You have got ḍābs right there. Govinda dāsī: They don’t use the coconuts. They pay people to come and . . . (end) Conversation -- May 12, 1972, Honolulu *Prabhupāda: . . . a giant demon who could, er, I mean to say—what is called?—draw, or shove, or push the earthly planet into the water of Garbhodaka Ocean. He is not an ordinary being. But although he was very strong, just like mountain, the example is given, the mountain is broken into pieces by the thunderbolt. Everything is there in nature’s law, and by Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement. Nature is not independent. Nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram ( BG 9.10). (This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.) We may not be amazed when there is a big thunderbolt falling on the mountain and breaking into pieces. This wonderful act is being done by nature, but behind the nature the order is of Kṛṣṇa. So whenever there is mention of an incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa, there is specific duty. This is the specific duty. This is not possible to be done. When Lord Rāmacandra, His specific duty was to kill Rāvaṇa and to construct a bridge over the ocean, this is not possible by ordinary man. Similarly, incarnation means something done which is not possible by anybody else. That is the test. So anyone, rascal, comes . . . but ordinarily, there . . . because people are so poor in knowledge that any magic shown, they think this is not ordinary thing: "I cannot do it." Little magical feats makes the incarnation. But not so . . . that is ordinary. If a magician can show something, and if another person exhibits the same talent, that does not mean he has become God. Suppose if one man can walk on the ocean—that is of course not very ordinary thing—but there are many big, big ships, they are also moving on the ocean. So that does not mean one has become God. Very extraordinary work. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . to pick up the whole earthly planet from the depths of Garbhodaka Ocean. There is other reason. So in this way, every day it is . . . our Bhāgavata is there, and the transliteration is there, word meaning is there—they should be read. Not that it is meant for simply selling. That we should also read. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: There are so many verses. We have taken so much pain to transliterate them, to give them word meanings and the purports, plus they must be instructed, discourses. Sanskrit, when pronounced, the vibration will create an atmosphere, nice atmosphere, Sanskrit. These are not ordinary Sanskrit; *they are mantras . Every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , they are Vedic mantras . The chanting of Vedic mantras has its effect. Just like chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has effect, similarly these mantras also chanted congregationally, it will have so much effect. So in the morning I think these classes should be held. (pause) (Prabhupāda sings) (SB 12.13.1) So, any questions? Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says here in the purport, "A similar disturbance was created formerly by the demons headed by Hiraṇyākṣa, and the earth was detached from its weightless condition and fell down into the Garbhodaka Ocean." "The great exploiter of the gold rush"? Prabhupāda: What is that "Gold rush"? Gold rush? Śyāmasundara: Gold rush means to exploit gold from the earth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are after gold. They created some disturbance. Hiraṇya means "gold," Hiraṇya*-akṣa : "Whose eyes are only on the gold": "Where is gold?" Hiraṇyakaśipu, there is no question of money and women, that’s all. They are demons. The whole world is now full of demons only. They are after money and women, that’s all. Woman does not mean this form of woman. A man also can become women. If the two parties, one party is trying to enjoy the other party, that is man and women. It does not mean the form of women and man. Just like nowadays, in your country, the homosex is also introduced. So people are becoming so much degraded—simply after money and women. Money and women. These are Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa. They will spoil the whole world. And they are spoiling. That is the business of the demons. And our business is to create Vaiṣṇavas in amongst the demons. In Vaikuṇṭha, sura-asura acutya . Sura and asura , both of them. That is Vaikuṇṭha world. Asura can also be taught. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). *These are asuras , very lowborn, less than the śūdrās, kirāta*-hūṇ . . . but they can be also reformed, śudhyanti . They can be reformed. That is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that just like Hiraṇyākṣa, mining, demons drilling for oil, disturbing the floating condition of the earth. What will the result be? Prabhupāda: The result will be destruction. Ultimately this material world will be destroyed. (aside) What is those? Two buildings? Devotee (2): Those are military radar. Prabhupāda: So there is no thunderbolt on the radar? Devotee (3): They put lightning rods. *Prabhupāda: Oh. There is lightning. So many ways, they are trying to save. But nature will not allow them to be saved. They must die. But the struggle for existence is that everyone is demon. The Vaiṣṇava, they do not attempt like that. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). *Dehāntara*-prāptir , another achievement or another body. So a Vaiṣṇava is not disturbed. They simply reserve the prerogative to become a devotee. Never mind—next life. Hundreds of lives there may be. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4): "Never mind, I will take My birth one after another." But the demons, they do not believe in God or God’s service or next life. These are the demons. They are thinking that this is the chance for sense enjoyment. Therefore they are trying to save in so many ways and engage the duration of life, as much as possible, varieties of sense gratification. This is demon. They don't know that after this body is finished, everything. So here is an opportunity to enjoy sense gratification. Therefore they are manufacturing so many varieties of sense gratification. They have no hope. And the Christian religion also says that they will go to hell or they will go to heaven. Destined. You have read Bible? Devotee: (4) No. Prabhupāda: So one is destined to go to heaven? Devotee: (4) They’re teaching that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (4) They’re teaching that. Prabhupāda: Ah. That one is destined? Then what is the use of taking to Jesus Christ if I am destined to go to hell? Govinda dāsī: You can be saved from going to hell. Prabhupāda: Hah. Then say that even though one is destined, he can be saved. That should be the philosophy. Śyāmasundara: He does. St. Paul does say that. He says it’s a mystery that although we are destined, still we can be saved. *Prabhupāda: That is reasonable. Taking to shelter of God or God’s son, one is saved. That is reasonable. But what is this philosophy that one is destined to go to hell, one is destined to go to heaven? This philosophy is not very nice. Just like we quoted one verse, kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda : these are destined to go to hell. But śudhyanti , by the association of pure devotees, they can be purified. Śudhyanti. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ, ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18). However sinful maybe, never mind what is the magnitude of the sinful activities, śudhyanti : he can be purified by the pure devotee. So that is real knowledge. And what is this, that one is destined to go to hell, destined to go to heaven? Śyāmasundara: (to another devotee) Do you have a Bible? Maybe you should bring it here. Prabhupāda: There are many. Aurobindo’s . . . Aurobindo’s philosophy is also like that: Once you get human form of life, then you don’t degrade. (laughter) Pradyumna: Hmm. Theosophists also think like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, theosophists. They are similar. Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . his point was that if someone was in third grade and they don’t pass, then they don’t go down to second grade, but they just stay in third grade, and they may go on to fourth. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: If he is in a grade in school, he is in the first, second and third year of school, but if he does not go on to fourth year, he just stays in third, but he does not go back to second. But I . . . whatever they . . . therefore I always say that if someone in school, he may not go on to fourth, but he may be so bad that he’s thrown out of school altogether, what to speak of going back to second. *Prabhupāda: That is his creation—his concoction, his creation. But Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāpti : transformation of another body. So another body may be in the second class or third class or any class. Dehāntara . Never says human body. Human body is guaranteed only for the yogīs , those who are trying to advance spiritually. Their next body is guaranteed, human being. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41). *But others, dehāntara*-prāpti , another transformation of body. And that is confirmed also, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke (BG 8.6): *At the time of death the mental condition will give you another body. There is proof also, just like Mahārāja Bharata. He was advancing in spiritual life—he left his kingdom—but at the time of death he was thinking of a deer, so he became a deer. Such an advanced . . . of course, he did not forget himself. Therefore he was speaking always amongst the saintly persons, their association. He was remembering that "I was King Bharata. Now I have assumed this body." But the nature’s process is that at the time of death, whatever you think, you get a body like that. So how is again guaranteed? It is guaranteed for yogīs . Either jñāna*-yogīs, haṭha-yogīs . . . (indistinct) . . . yogīs , Their whole life they devote, maybe impersonal Brahman, so he can be merged into the impersonal feature of the Lord. Paramātmā. The yogīs , all kinds of yogīs , they are guaranteed next life. And all these yogīs , after many, many such births, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), he becomes a devotee. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ : such saintly person is very rare. Brahmaṇi pasamāsana : taking shelter of the Supreme. (pause) So, Govinda dāsī, how are you feeling? All right? Govinda dāsī: Better. Resting nicely. (pause) Prabhupāda: Their bricks are not so . . . not so, not eleven inches. They are eight inches only. Śyāmasundara: Yes, eight inches. Prabhupāda: In India the bricks are eleven inches . . . (indistinct conversation) Devotee (1): The bricks are brought in by boat. Very expensive to build things here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is Americans who can develop such islands. Otherwise . . . Govinda dāsī: The other islands are not so developed. They’re very rural, very country. Except for a couple of cities, it’s all countryside and cows. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these are gardenias. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: These are gardenias. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation) Śyāmasundara: You have got ḍābs right there. Govinda dāsī: They don’t use the coconuts. They pay people to come and . . . (end) Conversation on BG 6.11-14- Honolulu -- May 13, 1972 Prabhupāda: . . . and the cheaters come and cheat them . . . (indistinct) . . . here it is clearly stated: ( BG 6.11–12) *(To practice yoga , one should go to a secluded place and should lay kuśa *-grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth. The seat should neither be too high nor too low and should be situated in a sacred place. The yogī should then sit on it very firmly and should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses, purifying the heart and fixing the mind on one point.) *Supreme. The heart and the soul. Yoga is meant for that. Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ (BG 6.13). *That is come on, a straight line. Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ , neck. Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ : stand still. Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ diśaś cānavalokayan (BG 6.13): no, not even seeing any other thing. Praśāntātmā vigata-bhīr : and a happy attitude; *without any fear. Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ : con . . . fully celibacy, brahmacāri . *Vrata : not by name brahmacāri —by vow. No sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. Manaḥ saṁyamya mac-citto yukta āsīta mat-paraḥ (BG 6.14): *"In this way one should be engaged in meditation, thinking always of Me," mat*-paraḥ . *This is yoga . What is he has recommended? He can do whatever he likes. And haṭha*-yoga also, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , according to Kapila Muni, that is also yaṁa . Why? Immediately beginning, yaṁ, yaṁ, āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra , eh? Then samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . this means this man is cheating everyone. This man is cheating; *he does not know what is yoga . And because these Western rascals, they want to be cheated, they come and take money, and they think they are yogī . They are not yogī . Give them a challenge: quote these verses from Bhagavad*-gītā, Bhagavatam . One cannot manufacture a science out of his own brain. *Śyāmasundara: Is . . . didn’t you, er . . . I heard some quote from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam a while ago about . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also. Give me that . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: "In this age, men will come . . ." Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gaurasundara: Something about in Kali*-yuga, men will . . . men will follow bogus teachers or something? *Prabhupāda: That is Kali*-yuga. So . . . (indistinct) . . . is all right. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: "Let us follow all bogus, and then . . ." Just like the people say, they are testing to do these things. Why do it? Why you are forbidden? They are the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. But one has to avoid them. Śyāmasundara: Huh. Yes. Prabhupāda: That we are teaching. In the Sixth Canto, first chapter . . . Śyāmasundara: Which verse? Prabhupāda: Verse number 12. Verse number 11, 12, 13. Fourteen also. There are so many. How many we have got. Śyāmasundara: Is there one that mentions the four pillars of sinful activities? *Prabhupāda: Yes. These four pillars of sinful activities: yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhāḥ (SB 1.17.38). Śyāmasundara: Which verse is that? There’s one where the king . . . er . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is First Canto. Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . (pause) Govinda dāsī: ( japa ) Prabhupāda: *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Seventeenth Chapter. Śyāmasundara: First Canto, Seventeenth Chapter . . . *Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter, thirty*-eighth verse. Śyāmasundara: Thirtieth? *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-eight. *Śyāmasundara: Thirty*-eight. Prabhupāda: (SB 1.17.38) When he was asked to go out, he said: (SB 1.17.36) "You are asking me to go out, so let me know what shall I do, because everything belongs to you. You asked me to go out of your kingdom, but everywhere is still your kingdom. So let me know, where shall I go?" (SB 1.17.36–37) "If you just designate . . . (indistinct) . . ." (SB 1.17.37) "I can peacefully live there, abiding by your order." (SB 1.17.38) *When he was asked by Parīkṣit to get him places, whether dyūtaṁ pānaṁ striyaḥ sūnā yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). *Dyūta: "Where there is gambling, where there is drinking, where there is illicit sex, and where there is animal slaughter—go there." Yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhaḥ . These four kinds of sinful activities are going on. And this is the whole world. Gambling and drinking, illicit sex and slaughterhouse. The whole Western world especially . . . no, everyone. In India also the same thing—but still less. Śyāmasundara: Much less. Prabhupāda: Still less. Still they are ashamed. But here there is no shame—shameless. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (SB 1.17.39) (pause) Then he asked that, "It is very difficult for me to go to four places. Better give me one place where four things are there." (laughs) So: *Catur*-vidhaksa api etad ati danum deheti punar jāta-rūpam sauvarṇa . Then he gave him gold: "You take this gold, and one who possesses gold—all these four things are there." Śyāmasundara: (laughs) That's the whole key, because Maharishi is after money. Prabhupāda: That's all. Śyāmasundara: He can't get money unless he allows those things to go on. That can be the punch line in the whole letter. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (SB 1.17.40) So these five kind of sinful places are given by Parīkṣit Mahārāja to Kali. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: You can quote these ślokas . Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . make a copy. (indistinct conversation with Govinda dāsī) Govinda dāsī: You mean Prabhupāda’s? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: I don't know if I have it here, or if I have it in the . . . Prabhupāda: Well, you can get—all these ślokas . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Pradyumna: They want to get an English translation. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: I want to put it in English also, so people can read it. Pradyumna: From the first three volumes translation . . . Prabhupāda: I think I have translated it already. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Pradyumna: They want to get the volumes, the three volumes. They don't have it here. Not here. They’ll get it from the temple. Prabhupāda: It is in the first volume. Śyāmasundara: Yes. They had it at the temple, so . . . Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter means this may be in the third volume. Pradyumna: Third volume. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Third volume. Prabhupāda: These are already discussed. Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pradyumna: In one of those verses in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Prabhupāda: So all these GBC members, they must be well expert in explaining; otherwise what is the use of this writing, taking so much labor, books? They should go, preach, understand. And when there is difficulty, I am present. They are already explained. I am taking so much pain in writing books. If you don't read—if you simply make it for sale—then what is the use? Just these all rascals should be challenged vigorously. They are misleading the whole population, and blaspheming the Indian spiritual culture. People are depending so much on this culture for their upliftment, and they are blackmailing for money’s sake. People have to be . . . they want to be cheated, that's all right. But our business is to save them. Śyāmasundara: I thought you were saying that we shouldn't criticize these people in public. Prabhupāda: No, no. To criticize means . . . of course, when you are preaching, we have to show the real truth. And that is not criticizing. It is just like if you call a thief a thief. If you point out, "This man is thief," this is not criticizing. If I warn that "Don't mix with Gaurasundara; he is a thief," and suppose he is a thief, is it criticizing? We are saying that "This is the path of yoga system . . . (indistinct) . . ." Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Yeah . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to do this. Prabhupāda: "And this is not." So if we distinguish, "This man is thief and this man is not," then that is not criticism; that is speaking the truth. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Our mood should be objective then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It shouldn't be personal attack. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now he has mentioned that, so you should point out . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . generously, what is actual yoga . Śyāmasundara: Very objectively: "Here is the right path . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ". . . as enunciated by the authorities. This is his statement, so that you can see the difference." Prabhupāda: Anyway, criticize or not criticize, we have to give everything carefully. But our preaching must be to save the people from pitfalls. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Acyutānanda has done a great service. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: A great service, in Navadvīpa. And therefore he has been elected as secretary. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are appreciating. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, we shall preach. It is true that our authorities . . . always reading should be continually going on in our centers. These books, regularly should be discussed and preached: the ideal life of Kṛṣṇa, ideal gṛhastha , householder, what He is doing. Our gṛhastha is not condemned, but provided he is right gṛhastha . But Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. He is lying down there with Kṛṣṇa . . . they are lying down, and who can leave Kṛṣṇa? If one has got Kṛṣṇa . . . they know Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So they are embracing Kṛṣṇa. How much happy they are? Eh? Śyāmasundara: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: But still Kṛṣṇa gets out. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) As soon as the first cock is crowing. Prabhupāda: How much devoted, beautiful. They are select . . . spiritual, they are not material. Their bodies are not material bodies. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace a material woman. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: All these queens are spiritual. All the gopīs, they are spiritual. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rāsa-pratibhāvitābhis (Bs 5.37): and they are all made of ānanda-cinmaya-rāsa . So He is showing the life of a gṛhastha : early rising, giving in charity to the Brāhmiṇs , and living daily duty. Still, He has got children, getting children married somehow or another. So gṛhastha life is not bad—never bad. Kṛṣṇa is gṛhastha . Our worshipable Lord is gṛhastha . He’s not sannyāsa . Is it sannyāsa ? Why He should be? He is the supreme enjoyer, why He should be sannyāsa . . . sannyāsi ? Enjoyer . . . sannyāsī is not enjoyer. But His description is enjoyer. Now how enjoyer can be sannyāsī ? But He is still sannyāsī —renounced, everything. That is the point. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He has got so many enjoyable wives, but still, just at time, renouncing everything. Enjoyer, at the same time renouncer. Renouncement is also opulence. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. (*Viṣṇu Purāṇa* 6.5.47) He is enjoying, but He has no attachment for all these things—either for wife or children or this building or anything. At any moment He can give up. The gopīs, in a moment He gave up, went to Mathura. They began to cry and they wanted to stop the chariot, and so many things. He said, "Yes. Don't be agitated. I am coming, I am coming." Like that. And practically He never came back. He left at the age of 15, 16 years old, then He became engaged in fighting, being educated and marrying and becoming king and so on, so on. Once He came, Krsna and Balarama, once, when They had grandchildren. And once He came, Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma met the gopīs in Kurukṣetra, when they came—maybe I have mentioned already. When the cowherd boys went to see Him at Kurukṣetra battle, when they heard how "Kṛṣṇa, our friend, is fighting," they could see, "Oh?" (laughs) They were village cowherds men. They saw so many kings, so "We cannot enter." Śyāmasundara: Kurukṣetra . . . Prabhupāda: They could not forget Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Kurukṣetra is near Delhi somewhere? Prabhupāda: I . . . you were with me, no? When we were coming back from Amritsar. Syāmasundara: Yes. I saw . . . Prabhupāda: I showed you the Kurukṣetra station. Syāmasundara: Ah! Before Delhi somewhere. *Prabhupāda: Still the station is there. People go for pilgrimage. Kuru*-kṣetre dharma-kṣetre is proof. And they are commentating in that . . . actually, the name, still the name is continuing. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The station, actually station, people are going for pilgrimage. Śyāmasundara: Ah. *Prabhupāda: And they are commentating . . . (indistinct) . . . dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Śyāmasundara: In Vṛndāvana all the names are the same still—Gokula . . . Prabhupāda: Yamunā, Govardhana . . . Śyāmasundara: . . . and Varṣāṇā. Prabhupāda: Varṣāṇā name is recent. *Śyāmasundara: Ah, Nanda*-grāma . . *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-grāma is old. Śyāmasundara: Old. *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-grāma is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana, in the Vṛndāvana area, now they are divided. Rādhārāṇī was also born in Gokula. Śyāmasundara: Ah. They say She was born . . . Prabhupāda: No. Maternal, maternal uncle . . . Śyāmasundara: Her parents lived in Varṣāṇā? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the spirit of Acyutānanda life is being challenged by these so*-called avatāras . He has dragged also Ramakrishna. Explain. Also our Govinda dāsī has done that. *Gaurasundara: Yes, she has done it also. Siddha*-svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gaurasundara: Siddha*-svarūpa. Dragged him into our camp. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) He was dragged. He was holding one very big meeting, and I went with two girls, two brahmacāriṇīs , and read your letter in front of his whole seventy, one hundred people—the letter where you denounced him. And he was hanging his head. And about five days later he joined you, after he got your letter. You know that letter you wrote? Do you remember it? Prabhupāda: I do not remember. What is the letter? Govinda dāsī: You wrote a letter . . . Prabhupāda: I told him, "Let us sing. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: You remember? It was a letter saying that "My disciples don't wear long hair, and they follow these regulative principles." You remember? Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Śyāmasundara: You remember? I think you wrote it in Surat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And so . . . he . . . it was nice. We distributed copies to all of the crowd. And . . . and . . . and . . . Gaurasundara: What did he say? . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: No, he didn't say very much. He said: "Let me explain. Let me explain," or something like that. I think he was already thinking of surrendering to you. But the letter did it. Your letter did it. It was the final chop, you know, the final . . . Gaurasundara: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa said he had it planned for many months, but there was too much wrong . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they can . . . (indistinct) . . . back. He can join. Gaurasundara: (aside) You’re leaving at seven? Prabhupāda: So preaching means read our books; follow this. Reference immediately you should give, reference, where it is. Why you are asking me, when . . . (indistinct) . . . what I am doing alone, now you have to do twelve times; then it will spread. Then each one takes another twelve. Then there will be no space for these rascals to flourish. We have got our books now. Print and distribute and preach, and bring the sunlight and the cockroaches will go away. (laughs) (laughter) They cannot do any more any infection. In the sunlight there is no insects, no cockroaches. In the darkness there is glowworms. Have you seen glowworms? You have seen? "Oh, there is light? What is that light?" Govinda dāsī: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Glowworms. So their light like that. The small . . . (indistinct) . . . glowworms, bring sunlight, then they will automatically go away. Kṛṣṇa—sūrya*-sama; māyā haya andhakāra (CC Madhya 22.31). What is the English translation? Gaurasundara: "Kṛṣṇa is sunlight, and māyā is darkness." Prabhupāda: That’s all. Bring sunlight, and the darkness will automatically go. (devotees pay obeisances) (break) (end) Conversation on BG 6.11-14- Honolulu -- May 13, 1972 Prabhupāda: . . . and the cheaters come and cheat them . . . (indistinct) . . . here it is clearly stated: ( BG 6.11–12) *(To practice yoga , one should go to a secluded place and should lay kuśa *-grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth. The seat should neither be too high nor too low and should be situated in a sacred place. The yogī should then sit on it very firmly and should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses, purifying the heart and fixing the mind on one point.) *Supreme. The heart and the soul. Yoga is meant for that. Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ (BG 6.13). *That is come on, a straight line. Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ , neck. Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ : stand still. Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ diśaś cānavalokayan (BG 6.13): no, not even seeing any other thing. Praśāntātmā vigata-bhīr : and a happy attitude; *without any fear. Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ : con . . . fully celibacy, brahmacāri . *Vrata : not by name brahmacāri —by vow. No sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. Manaḥ saṁyamya mac-citto yukta āsīta mat-paraḥ (BG 6.14): *"In this way one should be engaged in meditation, thinking always of Me," mat*-paraḥ . *This is yoga . What is he has recommended? He can do whatever he likes. And haṭha*-yoga also, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , according to Kapila Muni, that is also yaṁa . Why? Immediately beginning, yaṁ, yaṁ, āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra , eh? Then samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . this means this man is cheating everyone. This man is cheating; *he does not know what is yoga . And because these Western rascals, they want to be cheated, they come and take money, and they think they are yogī . They are not yogī . Give them a challenge: quote these verses from Bhagavad*-gītā, Bhagavatam . One cannot manufacture a science out of his own brain. *Śyāmasundara: Is . . . didn’t you, er . . . I heard some quote from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam a while ago about . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also. Give me that . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: "In this age, men will come . . ." Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gaurasundara: Something about in Kali*-yuga, men will . . . men will follow bogus teachers or something? *Prabhupāda: That is Kali*-yuga. So . . . (indistinct) . . . is all right. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: "Let us follow all bogus, and then . . ." Just like the people say, they are testing to do these things. Why do it? Why you are forbidden? They are the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. But one has to avoid them. Śyāmasundara: Huh. Yes. Prabhupāda: That we are teaching. In the Sixth Canto, first chapter . . . Śyāmasundara: Which verse? Prabhupāda: Verse number 12. Verse number 11, 12, 13. Fourteen also. There are so many. How many we have got. Śyāmasundara: Is there one that mentions the four pillars of sinful activities? *Prabhupāda: Yes. These four pillars of sinful activities: yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhāḥ (SB 1.17.38). Śyāmasundara: Which verse is that? There’s one where the king . . . er . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is First Canto. Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . (pause) Govinda dāsī: ( japa ) Prabhupāda: *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Seventeenth Chapter. Śyāmasundara: First Canto, Seventeenth Chapter . . . *Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter, thirty*-eighth verse. Śyāmasundara: Thirtieth? *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-eight. *Śyāmasundara: Thirty*-eight. Prabhupāda: (SB 1.17.38) When he was asked to go out, he said: (SB 1.17.36) "You are asking me to go out, so let me know what shall I do, because everything belongs to you. You asked me to go out of your kingdom, but everywhere is still your kingdom. So let me know, where shall I go?" (SB 1.17.36–37) "If you just designate . . . (indistinct) . . ." (SB 1.17.37) "I can peacefully live there, abiding by your order." (SB 1.17.38) *When he was asked by Parīkṣit to get him places, whether dyūtaṁ pānaṁ striyaḥ sūnā yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). *Dyūta: "Where there is gambling, where there is drinking, where there is illicit sex, and where there is animal slaughter—go there." Yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhaḥ . These four kinds of sinful activities are going on. And this is the whole world. Gambling and drinking, illicit sex and slaughterhouse. The whole Western world especially . . . no, everyone. In India also the same thing—but still less. Śyāmasundara: Much less. Prabhupāda: Still less. Still they are ashamed. But here there is no shame—shameless. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (SB 1.17.39) (pause) Then he asked that, "It is very difficult for me to go to four places. Better give me one place where four things are there." (laughs) So: *Catur*-vidhaksa api etad ati danum deheti punar jāta-rūpam sauvarṇa . Then he gave him gold: "You take this gold, and one who possesses gold—all these four things are there." Śyāmasundara: (laughs) That's the whole key, because Maharishi is after money. Prabhupāda: That's all. Śyāmasundara: He can't get money unless he allows those things to go on. That can be the punch line in the whole letter. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (SB 1.17.40) So these five kind of sinful places are given by Parīkṣit Mahārāja to Kali. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: You can quote these ślokas . Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . make a copy. (indistinct conversation with Govinda dāsī) Govinda dāsī: You mean Prabhupāda’s? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: I don't know if I have it here, or if I have it in the . . . Prabhupāda: Well, you can get—all these ślokas . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Pradyumna: They want to get an English translation. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: I want to put it in English also, so people can read it. Pradyumna: From the first three volumes translation . . . Prabhupāda: I think I have translated it already. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Pradyumna: They want to get the volumes, the three volumes. They don't have it here. Not here. They’ll get it from the temple. Prabhupāda: It is in the first volume. Śyāmasundara: Yes. They had it at the temple, so . . . Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter means this may be in the third volume. Pradyumna: Third volume. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Third volume. Prabhupāda: These are already discussed. Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pradyumna: In one of those verses in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Prabhupāda: So all these GBC members, they must be well expert in explaining; otherwise what is the use of this writing, taking so much labor, books? They should go, preach, understand. And when there is difficulty, I am present. They are already explained. I am taking so much pain in writing books. If you don't read—if you simply make it for sale—then what is the use? Just these all rascals should be challenged vigorously. They are misleading the whole population, and blaspheming the Indian spiritual culture. People are depending so much on this culture for their upliftment, and they are blackmailing for money’s sake. People have to be . . . they want to be cheated, that's all right. But our business is to save them. Śyāmasundara: I thought you were saying that we shouldn't criticize these people in public. Prabhupāda: No, no. To criticize means . . . of course, when you are preaching, we have to show the real truth. And that is not criticizing. It is just like if you call a thief a thief. If you point out, "This man is thief," this is not criticizing. If I warn that "Don't mix with Gaurasundara; he is a thief," and suppose he is a thief, is it criticizing? We are saying that "This is the path of yoga system . . . (indistinct) . . ." Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Yeah . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to do this. Prabhupāda: "And this is not." So if we distinguish, "This man is thief and this man is not," then that is not criticism; that is speaking the truth. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Our mood should be objective then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It shouldn't be personal attack. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now he has mentioned that, so you should point out . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . generously, what is actual yoga . Śyāmasundara: Very objectively: "Here is the right path . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ". . . as enunciated by the authorities. This is his statement, so that you can see the difference." Prabhupāda: Anyway, criticize or not criticize, we have to give everything carefully. But our preaching must be to save the people from pitfalls. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Acyutānanda has done a great service. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: A great service, in Navadvīpa. And therefore he has been elected as secretary. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are appreciating. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, we shall preach. It is true that our authorities . . . always reading should be continually going on in our centers. These books, regularly should be discussed and preached: the ideal life of Kṛṣṇa, ideal gṛhastha , householder, what He is doing. Our gṛhastha is not condemned, but provided he is right gṛhastha . But Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. He is lying down there with Kṛṣṇa . . . they are lying down, and who can leave Kṛṣṇa? If one has got Kṛṣṇa . . . they know Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So they are embracing Kṛṣṇa. How much happy they are? Eh? Śyāmasundara: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: But still Kṛṣṇa gets out. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) As soon as the first cock is crowing. Prabhupāda: How much devoted, beautiful. They are select . . . spiritual, they are not material. Their bodies are not material bodies. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace a material woman. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: All these queens are spiritual. All the gopīs, they are spiritual. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rāsa-pratibhāvitābhis (Bs 5.37): and they are all made of ānanda-cinmaya-rāsa . So He is showing the life of a gṛhastha : early rising, giving in charity to the Brāhmiṇs , and living daily duty. Still, He has got children, getting children married somehow or another. So gṛhastha life is not bad—never bad. Kṛṣṇa is gṛhastha . Our worshipable Lord is gṛhastha . He’s not sannyāsa . Is it sannyāsa ? Why He should be? He is the supreme enjoyer, why He should be sannyāsa . . . sannyāsi ? Enjoyer . . . sannyāsī is not enjoyer. But His description is enjoyer. Now how enjoyer can be sannyāsī ? But He is still sannyāsī —renounced, everything. That is the point. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He has got so many enjoyable wives, but still, just at time, renouncing everything. Enjoyer, at the same time renouncer. Renouncement is also opulence. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. (*Viṣṇu Purāṇa* 6.5.47) He is enjoying, but He has no attachment for all these things—either for wife or children or this building or anything. At any moment He can give up. The gopīs, in a moment He gave up, went to Mathura. They began to cry and they wanted to stop the chariot, and so many things. He said, "Yes. Don't be agitated. I am coming, I am coming." Like that. And practically He never came back. He left at the age of 15, 16 years old, then He became engaged in fighting, being educated and marrying and becoming king and so on, so on. Once He came, Krsna and Balarama, once, when They had grandchildren. And once He came, Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma met the gopīs in Kurukṣetra, when they came—maybe I have mentioned already. When the cowherd boys went to see Him at Kurukṣetra battle, when they heard how "Kṛṣṇa, our friend, is fighting," they could see, "Oh?" (laughs) They were village cowherds men. They saw so many kings, so "We cannot enter." Śyāmasundara: Kurukṣetra . . . Prabhupāda: They could not forget Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Kurukṣetra is near Delhi somewhere? Prabhupāda: I . . . you were with me, no? When we were coming back from Amritsar. Syāmasundara: Yes. I saw . . . Prabhupāda: I showed you the Kurukṣetra station. Syāmasundara: Ah! Before Delhi somewhere. *Prabhupāda: Still the station is there. People go for pilgrimage. Kuru*-kṣetre dharma-kṣetre is proof. And they are commentating in that . . . actually, the name, still the name is continuing. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The station, actually station, people are going for pilgrimage. Śyāmasundara: Ah. *Prabhupāda: And they are commentating . . . (indistinct) . . . dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Śyāmasundara: In Vṛndāvana all the names are the same still—Gokula . . . Prabhupāda: Yamunā, Govardhana . . . Śyāmasundara: . . . and Varṣāṇā. Prabhupāda: Varṣāṇā name is recent. *Śyāmasundara: Ah, Nanda*-grāma . . *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-grāma is old. Śyāmasundara: Old. *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-grāma is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana, in the Vṛndāvana area, now they are divided. Rādhārāṇī was also born in Gokula. Śyāmasundara: Ah. They say She was born . . . Prabhupāda: No. Maternal, maternal uncle . . . Śyāmasundara: Her parents lived in Varṣāṇā? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the spirit of Acyutānanda life is being challenged by these so*-called avatāras . He has dragged also Ramakrishna. Explain. Also our Govinda dāsī has done that. *Gaurasundara: Yes, she has done it also. Siddha*-svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gaurasundara: Siddha*-svarūpa. Dragged him into our camp. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) He was dragged. He was holding one very big meeting, and I went with two girls, two brahmacāriṇīs , and read your letter in front of his whole seventy, one hundred people—the letter where you denounced him. And he was hanging his head. And about five days later he joined you, after he got your letter. You know that letter you wrote? Do you remember it? Prabhupāda: I do not remember. What is the letter? Govinda dāsī: You wrote a letter . . . Prabhupāda: I told him, "Let us sing. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: You remember? It was a letter saying that "My disciples don't wear long hair, and they follow these regulative principles." You remember? Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Śyāmasundara: You remember? I think you wrote it in Surat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And so . . . he . . . it was nice. We distributed copies to all of the crowd. And . . . and . . . and . . . Gaurasundara: What did he say? . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: No, he didn't say very much. He said: "Let me explain. Let me explain," or something like that. I think he was already thinking of surrendering to you. But the letter did it. Your letter did it. It was the final chop, you know, the final . . . Gaurasundara: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa said he had it planned for many months, but there was too much wrong . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they can . . . (indistinct) . . . back. He can join. Gaurasundara: (aside) You’re leaving at seven? Prabhupāda: So preaching means read our books; follow this. Reference immediately you should give, reference, where it is. Why you are asking me, when . . . (indistinct) . . . what I am doing alone, now you have to do twelve times; then it will spread. Then each one takes another twelve. Then there will be no space for these rascals to flourish. We have got our books now. Print and distribute and preach, and bring the sunlight and the cockroaches will go away. (laughs) (laughter) They cannot do any more any infection. In the sunlight there is no insects, no cockroaches. In the darkness there is glowworms. Have you seen glowworms? You have seen? "Oh, there is light? What is that light?" Govinda dāsī: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Glowworms. So their light like that. The small . . . (indistinct) . . . glowworms, bring sunlight, then they will automatically go away. Kṛṣṇa—sūrya*-sama; māyā haya andhakāra (CC Madhya 22.31). What is the English translation? Gaurasundara: "Kṛṣṇa is sunlight, and māyā is darkness." Prabhupāda: That’s all. Bring sunlight, and the darkness will automatically go. (devotees pay obeisances) (break) (end) Conversation -- May 14, 1972, Honolulu Govinda dāsī: ( japa ) (testing microphone) Stop. (indistinct background overtaping) (break) Gaurasundara: (reading letter from Acyutānanda) ". . . Swami, I will come to speak end quote. He invited me to Burdwan…"? Prabhupāda: Burdwan. Gaurasundara: ". . . Burdwan, and will give me an English Koran, and I will present him with a *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*. They are just ready for that." Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Gaurasundara: "If Your Divine Grace writes to them, they will be very much encouraged." That he gives the address. Prabhupāda: Ha. Yes, I shall write. Gaurasundara: "This will help the preaching in Bangladesh very much. Last week I paid my obeisances to Dāmodara Mahārāja and touched his feet." Prabhupāda: And that's nice. I am… And he is satisfied? Gaurasundara: "He was threatening all the local people that if they attend our functions he would call the police. I met him on the road, and he immediately started shouting. Then I started shouting, and then he left Māyāpura for two weeks . . ." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: ". . . in which time everybody came back to the meetings, and now 250 to 300 men are taking prasādam ." Prabhupāda: Ah, he was not satisfied. He touched his feet, but still… Gaurasundara: Even after he started shouting. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? Gaurasundara: (laughs) So Acyutānanda started shouting back. (laughs) And then he… Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, that Dāmodara Mahārāja. Nobody likes him. Gaurasundara: "And now there are 250 to 300 taking prasādam here every Saturday and Sunday." Prabhupāda: Very good. Gaurasundara: "Now we are friends again." Prabhupāda: Ah, Dāmodara. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ha. (laughs) Gaurasundara: "And I am afraid the man is mad." Prabhupāda: I guess he is mad. Gaurasundara: "He writes these very strange letters about Bengali history and trivia." Prabhupāda: His farce history. Gaurasundara: "Your servant, Acyutānanda Swami." Prabhupāda: I shall dictate all this. Gaurasundara: Yeah, we can do it in the morning. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Morning is best. Gaurasundara: Best time. Prabhupāda: So things are going nicely. Gaurasundara: In Māyāpura, very nice. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Gaurasundara: So when you go back there… Prabhupāda: Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura is in my favor. His men are giving little trouble. Gaurasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: This is the . . . Gaurasundara: And he doesn't want to . . . to offend his men. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Gaurasundara: So immediately you can fly from… When you go there you can go from this side to Calcutta and see how it is going on. Prabhupāda: So, we shall come again Hawaii? Gaurasundara: Yeah, Hawaii, Japan. Prabhupāda: Naturally. Gaurasundara: Australia. Prabhupāda: Hong Kong. Gaurasundara: (laughs) Hong Kong. New Zealand. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: His smile is very much revealing. Gaurasundara: (aside to Govinda dasi: You’d better start cooking) Prabhupāda: Not so many days. Two days, three days, like that. Gaurasundara: Hah. Instead of two weeks. Prabhupāda: So, short visit will encourage everybody. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we, our workers work hard and seriously and sincerely, this mission will, I mean, advance. There is no doubt about it. Because we are sincerely working. There is nothing bogus. Our Godbrothers have deliberately disobeyed my Guru Mahārāja. Gaurasundara: Ha. Prabhupāda: That is my charge against them. Deliberately. He never appointed an ācārya . First of all they appointed one ācārya , you see, and later on he proved to be a rascal. Devotee: Now they have several different ācāryas . Prabhupāda: Yes. That made the fracture, you see. Gaurasundara: Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: No. Purī, Purī, Purī—another of my Godbrothers. He was duplicate (sic) number one. He was saying something on mouth, and . . . Devotee: Hah. Prabhupāda: So he was appointed ācārya . Whatever he may be, Guru Mahārāja never designated any ācārya . And the Śrīdhara Mahārāja, he was the principal man to support him. Gaurasundara: Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: Ha. The Śrīdhara Swami from Bengal Maṭha. He made a great blunder, he and Professor Sanyal and Keśava Mahārāja. At that time he was, these three men supported, and he proved later on to be false. Actually this Tīrtha Mahārāja, he wanted to be ācārya . People did not like him, so they made another bad ācārya . (laughs) Why ācārya ? They should have continued the preaching work uncontaminated. What is the use of ācārya ? Sādhu will have come out automatically by working, but they did not. Propaganda. *Devotee: There is one group that accepts Bhakti*-saraṅga as ācārya also. Prabhupāda: So many. Devotee: They have a Maṭha right down the street from our Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: And they have a big marble plaque on the wall that says how he went on a tour, and he brought back his Australian disciple with him. *Syāmasundara: Lord Zetland and . . . it sounds from the plaque like he conquered the West. And he found his statue in Kensington Park, Kṛṣṇa*-mūrti. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Lord Zetland? Prabhupāda: Let us not criticize others. Let us go on with our own work. Make your progress steady, you see. Where is that Australian student? . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Someone told you about that in Māyāpura, and you said that you knew the story that he had simply met a man on a boat, (laughs) and he brought him back and pleaded with him, "Please stay for two weeks at our āśrama ." And he came and stayed for two weeks and went away. Prabhupāda: He was coming without any disciples. He made friendship, (laughs) canvassing that, "You stay with us." And he canvassed that, "I have brought such Australian student." Like that. (pause) Now Ramakrishna mission will understand that we are their enemy. (laughs) It will be good propaganda for all this nonsense. (pause) Yes. Take this spectacles and give them. Gaurasundara: Pradyumna? Pradyumna: Can you bring in the electric shaver and the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Prabhupāda’s . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hey Syāmasundara. I thought you guys were going to wait for me? I thought you were going to wait for me? Syāmasundara: Coming? Gaurasundara: Well I can't come right this minute. Why can't you wait a few minutes? Syāmasundara: Better go? Gaurasundara: Why not? (end) Conversation -- May 14, 1972, Honolulu Govinda dāsī: ( japa ) (testing microphone) Stop. (indistinct background overtaping) (break) Gaurasundara: (reading letter from Acyutānanda) ". . . Swami, I will come to speak end quote. He invited me to Burdwan…"? Prabhupāda: Burdwan. Gaurasundara: ". . . Burdwan, and will give me an English Koran, and I will present him with a *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*. They are just ready for that." Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Gaurasundara: "If Your Divine Grace writes to them, they will be very much encouraged." That he gives the address. Prabhupāda: Ha. Yes, I shall write. Gaurasundara: "This will help the preaching in Bangladesh very much. Last week I paid my obeisances to Dāmodara Mahārāja and touched his feet." Prabhupāda: And that's nice. I am… And he is satisfied? Gaurasundara: "He was threatening all the local people that if they attend our functions he would call the police. I met him on the road, and he immediately started shouting. Then I started shouting, and then he left Māyāpura for two weeks . . ." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: ". . . in which time everybody came back to the meetings, and now 250 to 300 men are taking prasādam ." Prabhupāda: Ah, he was not satisfied. He touched his feet, but still… Gaurasundara: Even after he started shouting. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? Gaurasundara: (laughs) So Acyutānanda started shouting back. (laughs) And then he… Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, that Dāmodara Mahārāja. Nobody likes him. Gaurasundara: "And now there are 250 to 300 taking prasādam here every Saturday and Sunday." Prabhupāda: Very good. Gaurasundara: "Now we are friends again." Prabhupāda: Ah, Dāmodara. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ha. (laughs) Gaurasundara: "And I am afraid the man is mad." Prabhupāda: I guess he is mad. Gaurasundara: "He writes these very strange letters about Bengali history and trivia." Prabhupāda: His farce history. Gaurasundara: "Your servant, Acyutānanda Swami." Prabhupāda: I shall dictate all this. Gaurasundara: Yeah, we can do it in the morning. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Morning is best. Gaurasundara: Best time. Prabhupāda: So things are going nicely. Gaurasundara: In Māyāpura, very nice. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Gaurasundara: So when you go back there… Prabhupāda: Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura is in my favor. His men are giving little trouble. Gaurasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: This is the . . . Gaurasundara: And he doesn't want to . . . to offend his men. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Gaurasundara: So immediately you can fly from… When you go there you can go from this side to Calcutta and see how it is going on. Prabhupāda: So, we shall come again Hawaii? Gaurasundara: Yeah, Hawaii, Japan. Prabhupāda: Naturally. Gaurasundara: Australia. Prabhupāda: Hong Kong. Gaurasundara: (laughs) Hong Kong. New Zealand. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: His smile is very much revealing. Gaurasundara: (aside to Govinda dasi: You’d better start cooking) Prabhupāda: Not so many days. Two days, three days, like that. Gaurasundara: Hah. Instead of two weeks. Prabhupāda: So, short visit will encourage everybody. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we, our workers work hard and seriously and sincerely, this mission will, I mean, advance. There is no doubt about it. Because we are sincerely working. There is nothing bogus. Our Godbrothers have deliberately disobeyed my Guru Mahārāja. Gaurasundara: Ha. Prabhupāda: That is my charge against them. Deliberately. He never appointed an ācārya . First of all they appointed one ācārya , you see, and later on he proved to be a rascal. Devotee: Now they have several different ācāryas . Prabhupāda: Yes. That made the fracture, you see. Gaurasundara: Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: No. Purī, Purī, Purī—another of my Godbrothers. He was duplicate (sic) number one. He was saying something on mouth, and . . . Devotee: Hah. Prabhupāda: So he was appointed ācārya . Whatever he may be, Guru Mahārāja never designated any ācārya . And the Śrīdhara Mahārāja, he was the principal man to support him. Gaurasundara: Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: Ha. The Śrīdhara Swami from Bengal Maṭha. He made a great blunder, he and Professor Sanyal and Keśava Mahārāja. At that time he was, these three men supported, and he proved later on to be false. Actually this Tīrtha Mahārāja, he wanted to be ācārya . People did not like him, so they made another bad ācārya . (laughs) Why ācārya ? They should have continued the preaching work uncontaminated. What is the use of ācārya ? Sādhu will have come out automatically by working, but they did not. Propaganda. *Devotee: There is one group that accepts Bhakti*-saraṅga as ācārya also. Prabhupāda: So many. Devotee: They have a Maṭha right down the street from our Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: And they have a big marble plaque on the wall that says how he went on a tour, and he brought back his Australian disciple with him. *Syāmasundara: Lord Zetland and . . . it sounds from the plaque like he conquered the West. And he found his statue in Kensington Park, Kṛṣṇa*-mūrti. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Lord Zetland? Prabhupāda: Let us not criticize others. Let us go on with our own work. Make your progress steady, you see. Where is that Australian student? . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Someone told you about that in Māyāpura, and you said that you knew the story that he had simply met a man on a boat, (laughs) and he brought him back and pleaded with him, "Please stay for two weeks at our āśrama ." And he came and stayed for two weeks and went away. Prabhupāda: He was coming without any disciples. He made friendship, (laughs) canvassing that, "You stay with us." And he canvassed that, "I have brought such Australian student." Like that. (pause) Now Ramakrishna mission will understand that we are their enemy. (laughs) It will be good propaganda for all this nonsense. (pause) Yes. Take this spectacles and give them. Gaurasundara: Pradyumna? Pradyumna: Can you bring in the electric shaver and the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Prabhupāda’s . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hey Syāmasundara. I thought you guys were going to wait for me? I thought you were going to wait for me? Syāmasundara: Coming? Gaurasundara: Well I can't come right this minute. Why can't you wait a few minutes? Syāmasundara: Better go? Gaurasundara: Why not? (end) Conversation -- May 26, 1972, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: . . . the crow and a peacock dance. Kāka*-mayur . There is a story. Do you know it? Do you know? The crow imitated a peacock. He got some tail feathers and put, (laughter) holding his head up, and began to . . . so that is imitation. *But if guru*-vaiṣṇava blesses, even a crow can become a peacock. That is the . . . there is vast ocean of difference between peacock and crow. Still, by guru-vaiṣṇava , a crow can become a peacock. Śyāmasundara: The other day I was hearing a tape, a philosophy tape, of you telling a story about a man who sawed himself off a limb. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He cut himself off the limb. The sages said: "Oh, you are such a great fool, you should marry the queen." Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: But I forgot the end part. After Sarasvatī, Goddess Sarasvatī, gave him knowledge, then what happened? I can’t remember. Prabhupāda: Then he is coming back. Śyāmasundara: After he was given knowledge . . . then how does the story go? *Prabhupāda: Then he returned to his wife. So he was knocking door. The wife was very, very sorry that, "My husband is such a fool." And he began to write. Asti*-vada viśeṣa . Asti-kaścid vāda viśeṣa . The wife was very great Sanskrit scholar . . . (indistinct) . . . "Yes. I will write book." Then he began to write. She was very happy. *Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ uttpaparam toya*-nidhi avagāhya . . . (indistinct) . . . description of Himalaya. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ . On the northern side of the earth there is a big hill, Himalaya. Toya-nidhi avagāhya . He's touching both side, great oceans, sthita pratijñāna eva mana gandha . He is standing just like the . . . what is it called, weighing rod, two sides? Śyāmasundara: Balance. Prabhupāda: Balance? What it is called? Rod? Śyāmasundara: I know what you mean. I know what you're saying. Scale. Prabhupāda: Scale, yes. Standing like a scale, keeping the two oceans as balance. So I think the Arctic region, the Arctic region, where there is big mountain, this is mentioned here. Not that Himalaya. Himalaya means "the resort of the snow." Hima, hima means "snow"; alaya . So, uttarasyaṁ diśi , North Pole. Śyāmasundara: There is huge mountain. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Huge means that. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ, toya*-nidhi. Toya-nidhi , that is Pacific Ocean and Atlantic Ocean. Avagāhya —touching; *sthita pratijñāna —of the earth, scale rod, and taking these are two scales. These are the description of the North Pole. That means he had full knowledge of the whole world situation. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa , these four words which was uttered to his wife, asti . . . with asti , he began Kumāra*-sambhava. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . And with the verb, with this word he wrote Raghu-vaṁśa . He wrote this Kumāra-sambhava . . . (indistinct) . . . and śakuntalā . These four works are very famous of Kālidāsa. So when he turned back to meet his wife, he uttered first four words: asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa : somebody who is a master of language. Because he (she) kicked him. The wife kicked him. So he was going to die, and Mother Sarasvatī appeared. She prayed . . . he prayed very feelingly, that "Mother Sarasvatī, you did not do me any favor, so I am so fool that I have been kicked by my wife, so I’ll suffer . . . (indistinct) . . ." So Mother Sarasvatī said, "What do you want?" "I want to be learned scholar." "Whatever you speak, that will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go back. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I give you blessing, whatever you will speak, that will be learned." Śyāmasundara: So those four words, what do they mean? Prabhupāda: The four words, when he came back, he was knocking the door. His wife come and said, "Who is that?" So he replied in Sanskrit, asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . So she was surprised at the words . . . (indistinct) . . . "I kicked him out; now he's speaking in Sanskrit. How is that?" Śyāmasundara: What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Oh, asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa : "Here is standing something, personified language." Śyāmasundara: Ohh. (laughs) Ah, that's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somebody who is personified language. So, "Are you speaking?" "Yes." Then he began to write books with the four words—four books. Śyāmasundara: And each book began with one word, with one of those four words? *Prabhupāda: Hmm. With asti he wrote Kumāra*-sambhava , birth of Kārtikeya. Kārtikeya is known as Kumara. So how Kārtikeya was born, the story is written with the . . . beginning with the word asti. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ . Śyāmasundara: Oh, Śiva and Pārvatī . . . Prabhupāda: Then with bhāg , this word, bhāga ta pratipattaye. Bhāga ta pratipattaye . Śyāmasundara: Asti bhāg . . . Prabhupāda: Asti kāscit . Śyāmasundara: Kāscit . Prabhupāda: Kaścid vāda viśeṣa . *Śyāmasundara: Kaścid vāda viśeṣa. Megha*-dūta . . . *Prabhupāda: Megha*-dūta, Śakuntalā and Kumāra-sambhava, Raghu-vaṁśa. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . So many scholars, paṇḍitas , poets are there in the mundane world, but they have no knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: Are these considered mundane poems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Grāmya*-kavi. Grāmya-kavi . They are called grāmya-kavi , mundane poet. We read in our I.A. I have Sanskrit up to I.A. In the B.A. I gave up Sanskrit and I took history of the world, economics and philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . history of England. Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember you used to tell us all of the history in London—kings, all the kings . . . Prabhupāda: In economics I read your president's book, Woodrow Wilson, State. Woodrow Wilson, State, his book. Śyāmasundara: Philosophy? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Philosophy we studied Dr. Stephen's Metaphysics and Psychology. Śyāmasundara: And now you’re commenting on all of them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, at that time we did not read all these things. But there was reference to Aristotle, Kant, Percival. Percival. And then one Milt? Śyāmasundara: Mill? Prabhupāda: Mill, Mill, yes. John Stuart Mill. Śyāmasundara: That was on one of the tapes that was lost. Maybe we'll have to do that one over again. Prabhupāda: John Stuart Mill was big name. Śyāmasundara: Yes. British. Prabhupāda: And Aristotle. (pause) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the nitya*-mukta , a person who it says in the Bhāgavatam sees the . . . (indistinct) . . . form, he sees the variegatedness of the material world . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): He sees . . . he thinks that . . . he doesn't . . . he thinks the variegatedness of the material world, that is just produced of illusion, nescience. The liberated soul . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is. We Vaiṣṇava philosopher, we don’t say false; we say temporary. Why we shall say God's creation is false? We don’t say that. Huh? Devotee (2): We're got exactly the verse . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī philosophy. No. Why shall I say creation of God is false? That is insult. If some Māyāvādī philosopher comes that, "Oh, you have created this Kṛṣṇa consciousness institution. It is all false," so what shall I think? "What a nonsense, that I have worked so hard, and after you say something . . . (indistinct) . . . he says false?" I’ll not be very much happy. Similarly, God's so nice creation, why shall I say false? And if He is true, why He shall create false? That theory we don’t accept. We say that it is temporary. Temporary, illusory. Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Means? (break) (end) Conversation -- May 26, 1972, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: . . . the crow and a peacock dance. Kāka*-mayur . There is a story. Do you know it? Do you know? The crow imitated a peacock. He got some tail feathers and put, (laughter) holding his head up, and began to . . . so that is imitation. *But if guru*-vaiṣṇava blesses, even a crow can become a peacock. That is the . . . there is vast ocean of difference between peacock and crow. Still, by guru-vaiṣṇava , a crow can become a peacock. Śyāmasundara: The other day I was hearing a tape, a philosophy tape, of you telling a story about a man who sawed himself off a limb. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He cut himself off the limb. The sages said: "Oh, you are such a great fool, you should marry the queen." Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: But I forgot the end part. After Sarasvatī, Goddess Sarasvatī, gave him knowledge, then what happened? I can’t remember. Prabhupāda: Then he is coming back. Śyāmasundara: After he was given knowledge . . . then how does the story go? *Prabhupāda: Then he returned to his wife. So he was knocking door. The wife was very, very sorry that, "My husband is such a fool." And he began to write. Asti*-vada viśeṣa . Asti-kaścid vāda viśeṣa . The wife was very great Sanskrit scholar . . . (indistinct) . . . "Yes. I will write book." Then he began to write. She was very happy. *Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ uttpaparam toya*-nidhi avagāhya . . . (indistinct) . . . description of Himalaya. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ . On the northern side of the earth there is a big hill, Himalaya. Toya-nidhi avagāhya . He's touching both side, great oceans, sthita pratijñāna eva mana gandha . He is standing just like the . . . what is it called, weighing rod, two sides? Śyāmasundara: Balance. Prabhupāda: Balance? What it is called? Rod? Śyāmasundara: I know what you mean. I know what you're saying. Scale. Prabhupāda: Scale, yes. Standing like a scale, keeping the two oceans as balance. So I think the Arctic region, the Arctic region, where there is big mountain, this is mentioned here. Not that Himalaya. Himalaya means "the resort of the snow." Hima, hima means "snow"; alaya . So, uttarasyaṁ diśi , North Pole. Śyāmasundara: There is huge mountain. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Huge means that. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ, toya*-nidhi. Toya-nidhi , that is Pacific Ocean and Atlantic Ocean. Avagāhya —touching; *sthita pratijñāna —of the earth, scale rod, and taking these are two scales. These are the description of the North Pole. That means he had full knowledge of the whole world situation. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa , these four words which was uttered to his wife, asti . . . with asti , he began Kumāra*-sambhava. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . And with the verb, with this word he wrote Raghu-vaṁśa . He wrote this Kumāra-sambhava . . . (indistinct) . . . and śakuntalā . These four works are very famous of Kālidāsa. So when he turned back to meet his wife, he uttered first four words: asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa : somebody who is a master of language. Because he (she) kicked him. The wife kicked him. So he was going to die, and Mother Sarasvatī appeared. She prayed . . . he prayed very feelingly, that "Mother Sarasvatī, you did not do me any favor, so I am so fool that I have been kicked by my wife, so I’ll suffer . . . (indistinct) . . ." So Mother Sarasvatī said, "What do you want?" "I want to be learned scholar." "Whatever you speak, that will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go back. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I give you blessing, whatever you will speak, that will be learned." Śyāmasundara: So those four words, what do they mean? Prabhupāda: The four words, when he came back, he was knocking the door. His wife come and said, "Who is that?" So he replied in Sanskrit, asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . So she was surprised at the words . . . (indistinct) . . . "I kicked him out; now he's speaking in Sanskrit. How is that?" Śyāmasundara: What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Oh, asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa : "Here is standing something, personified language." Śyāmasundara: Ohh. (laughs) Ah, that's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somebody who is personified language. So, "Are you speaking?" "Yes." Then he began to write books with the four words—four books. Śyāmasundara: And each book began with one word, with one of those four words? *Prabhupāda: Hmm. With asti he wrote Kumāra*-sambhava , birth of Kārtikeya. Kārtikeya is known as Kumara. So how Kārtikeya was born, the story is written with the . . . beginning with the word asti. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ . Śyāmasundara: Oh, Śiva and Pārvatī . . . Prabhupāda: Then with bhāg , this word, bhāga ta pratipattaye. Bhāga ta pratipattaye . Śyāmasundara: Asti bhāg . . . Prabhupāda: Asti kāscit . Śyāmasundara: Kāscit . Prabhupāda: Kaścid vāda viśeṣa . *Śyāmasundara: Kaścid vāda viśeṣa. Megha*-dūta . . . *Prabhupāda: Megha*-dūta, Śakuntalā and Kumāra-sambhava, Raghu-vaṁśa. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . So many scholars, paṇḍitas , poets are there in the mundane world, but they have no knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: Are these considered mundane poems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Grāmya*-kavi. Grāmya-kavi . They are called grāmya-kavi , mundane poet. We read in our I.A. I have Sanskrit up to I.A. In the B.A. I gave up Sanskrit and I took history of the world, economics and philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . history of England. Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember you used to tell us all of the history in London—kings, all the kings . . . Prabhupāda: In economics I read your president's book, Woodrow Wilson, State. Woodrow Wilson, State, his book. Śyāmasundara: Philosophy? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Philosophy we studied Dr. Stephen's Metaphysics and Psychology. Śyāmasundara: And now you’re commenting on all of them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, at that time we did not read all these things. But there was reference to Aristotle, Kant, Percival. Percival. And then one Milt? Śyāmasundara: Mill? Prabhupāda: Mill, Mill, yes. John Stuart Mill. Śyāmasundara: That was on one of the tapes that was lost. Maybe we'll have to do that one over again. Prabhupāda: John Stuart Mill was big name. Śyāmasundara: Yes. British. Prabhupāda: And Aristotle. (pause) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the nitya*-mukta , a person who it says in the Bhāgavatam sees the . . . (indistinct) . . . form, he sees the variegatedness of the material world . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): He sees . . . he thinks that . . . he doesn't . . . he thinks the variegatedness of the material world, that is just produced of illusion, nescience. The liberated soul . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is. We Vaiṣṇava philosopher, we don’t say false; we say temporary. Why we shall say God's creation is false? We don’t say that. Huh? Devotee (2): We're got exactly the verse . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī philosophy. No. Why shall I say creation of God is false? That is insult. If some Māyāvādī philosopher comes that, "Oh, you have created this Kṛṣṇa consciousness institution. It is all false," so what shall I think? "What a nonsense, that I have worked so hard, and after you say something . . . (indistinct) . . . he says false?" I’ll not be very much happy. Similarly, God's so nice creation, why shall I say false? And if He is true, why He shall create false? That theory we don’t accept. We say that it is temporary. Temporary, illusory. Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Means? (break) (end) Conversation Excerpt -- May 27, 1972, Los Angeles Girl: I didn't check. I just poured it in. Prabhupāda: You check after giving it? This is not... Girl: How can I distin...? Prabhupāda: How is that? Eh? Girl: I didn't know. Prabhupāda: Yes? Girl: It's my fault because I wasn't conscious of what I was doing. Prabhupāda: It is your fault but is it grievous fault that you put something instead of something? Girl: What can I do? Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: What can I do now? Prabhupāda: How it was done? What is that thing you put? Girl: Salt. Prabhupāda: Salt? Girl: Yes. It tastes like it. Prabhupāda: Tastes like. You know that it is..., that was salt? Girl: Well, I didn't know. Prabhupāda: So somebody responsible should be in charge. That way instead of salt something may be put. So many people cooking is going on. All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York Prabhupāda: Oh, Mr. Murti, I'm very glad to see you. Come here in front. How do you like this movement? Huh? Mr. Murti: (inaudible) Prabhupāda: Thank you. (chuckling) So any particular question? Rukmiṇī: On the picture today that you gave Jadurani a picture of Śrī Viṣṇu. There is a foot on His chest. We didn't know what that was... there was a little footprint. *Prabhupāda: There are some special marks on the chest of Viṣṇu by which in Vaikuṇṭha He is known that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise, in Vaikuṇṭha, everyone has got the same feature like Viṣṇu. Just like if President Johnson comes here as a gentleman, you'll not, nobody will recognize him whether he's president or not unless he shows his special mark. Is it not? All government officers, big officers, they have got within the coat one, some mark. So far I know. So similarly, in Vaikuṇṭha the inhabitants, they got svarūpa. Their form is exactly like Viṣṇu. There is no difference. When the Viṣṇudūta came to take Ajamila from the hands of Yamadūta. They were four*-handed with śankha-cakra-gadā-padma as Viṣṇu, the lotus flower, this disc, and the club, and the conchshell. There is no difference in the body. Simply by that special mark, some special hair on the chest and there is Bhṛgu, I mean to say, sole, sole, a mark of the feet of Bhṛgu Muni. So by some special marks one can recognize He is Viṣṇu. Otherwise, from bodily features and from dress and from ornaments, there is no distinction between Viṣṇu and His devotees in Vaikuṇṭha. They're all four-handed. Svarūpa sāyujya sālokya sārṣṭi. They have got equal, I mean to say, situation of prosperity, wealthy, equally, almost equally powerful. So practically there is no difference between Viṣṇu and Viṣṇu-bhakta. In Kṛṣṇaloka also. Only Kṛṣṇa is little blackish. Otherwise there is no... In the Kṛṣṇaloka they are two-handed, and Viṣṇuloka they are four-handed. All the Vaikuṇṭhas, the residents, they are four-handed. You want four-hand or two-hand? (laughter) Mr. Murti? What do you want? Four hands? Mr. Murti: Two hands more than Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. In this universe only Brahmā has got four hands. Nobody within this universe. And Viṣṇu also. In this brahmāṇḍa, in this universe, there is a planet where the ocean is of milk. Here, just like salted water. There are many oceans. Ocean of oil, ocean of ghee, ocean of milk. The ocean of oil, you have got experience in this planet. Within the earth you are getting some... Your civilization depending, your motor car civilization is depending on that ocean of oil. You are getting oil and lavishly spending it. Stock is supplied by God. Your material advancement will be finished if the stock is not supplied by the Lord. So these foolish men, they do not know. They think that "Without God we can live." Who has created the ocean of petroleum within the earth? Is it possible for human being? (laughter) Haṁsadūta: Someone has said that the dhotī, the dhotī that the brahmacārīs wear, is the dress that's worn in Vaikuṇṭha. Is that correct? *Prabhupāda: Just see Viṣṇu. He has no coat*-pant. Here is Viṣṇu. Or Kṛṣṇa, He has no dress. He is also bare body. Only Rādhārāṇī is covered. In India also, still, the covering of the body is only for woman, but men, this, practically one dhotī is sufficient. Sometimes laṅgota, the underwear. Laṅgota, underwear. What is that? *Nanda*-kiśora: Swami? What does Nanda-kiśora mean? *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-kiśora, kiśora means a boy. *Nanda*-kiśora: Boy? Prabhupāda: The transcendental boy of Nanda Mahārāja. Devotees: Oh! Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhusudana: How is the lotus a weapon? They're all weapons. All the symbols in Viṣṇu's hand, are, all the symbols in Viṣṇu's hand are weapons. How is the lotus a weapon? *Prabhupāda: Lotus is blessing. And that disc and club is for punishing. Viṣṇu has to see two ways because He's the Lord. So, as it is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Just like the state. State is meant for punishing the criminals and giving protection to the law-abiding citizen. Wherefrom this idea is taken? It is taken from Viṣṇu. Everything. Because He is the supreme maintainer. So everything is required for maintaining. So this gada, the club, and the disc is for punishing the disobedient, the demons, or those who are harassing devotees. To punish them the Viṣṇu-cakra is there. Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, he was harassed by Durvāsā Muni, and Viṣṇu-cakra punished him sufficiently. Mahārāja Durvāsā... Mahārāja Ambarīṣa was a great king, but a great devotee at the same time. Because he was kṣatriya and householder, Durvāsā Muni, he was envious. Durvāsā Muni was brāhmaṇa and a great yogi. So he could not tolerate that a householder king... King is supposed to be dealing in politics, economics. Therefore, according to social position, he is lesser than the brāhmaṇa because they are simply engaged in the matter of transcendental advancement of life. But a devotee is above the brāhmaṇas. That is the position of devotee. Here, the highest qualitative position is to be situated in the modes of goodness or to acquire the qualities of brāhmaṇa, in this material world. Truthfulness, controlling the senses, controlling the mind, simplicity and knowledge, faith in God, there are so many qualifications which makes a person as recognized brāhmaṇa. But a devotee, never mind whether he's brāhmaṇa or a caṇḍāla, he automatically develop all these qualities. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who has unflinching devotional faith in God, he has all the good qualities. I've several times narrated the story of that hunter. He was animal killer and he used to enjoy by killing the animal half. But when he became a devotee, he was not prepared to kill even an ant. Who taught him? Nobody taught him but he was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. So if you actually making progress in devotional service, you are constantly in touch with the purest. Kṛṣṇa is the purest. Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhama pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. "You are the paraṁ brahma, Supreme Brahman." Brahman, every living entity is Brahman but He is paraṁ brahma, the leader of the Brahman. Just like the president is the first citizen of the state. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also a living entity, but supreme living entity. Just like the first citizen. So similarly, every living entity is Brahman, but paraṁ brahma is one. That is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is confirmed, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Kṛṣṇa is... Everyone īśvara, more or less controller. Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, Indra, Varuṇa, Vāyu, Candra, Sūrya. There are so many. They're all demigods. Say, almost God. But they are not Supreme God. Supreme God is one. Sometimes people who do not know the purpose of Vedas, they say, "The Hindus are worshiper of many gods." That is nonsense. Actually those who are followers of Vedas, they worship Kṛṣṇa, only Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ. Ṛg mantra. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. What is the purpose of Vedas? To understand Kṛṣṇa. One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, his Vedānta philosophy is nonsense. However you may advertise that "I am Vedāntist," is a pakka nonsense. Because he has not attained the perfection of Vedic knowledge. The perfection of Vedic knowledge is to know Kṛṣṇa, and that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births. Jñānavān. Jñānavān means Vedāntist. Not... They have made it, that Vedāntist... Vedāntist, Vaiṣṇavas, they are also Vedāntist, but it has become a common sense, a common affair that the impersonalists, they are called Vedāntists. Because, due to Śaṅkarācārya's propaganda, they have made their position as Vedāntists. But common men, they do not know that the Vaiṣṇavas are the best Vedāntists. We shall discuss Vedānta here also. Vedānta... In Rāmānuja-bhāṣya there is... Perhaps you know, in your country. There is Rāmānuja-bhāṣya Vedānta. Madhvācārya, he has also written Vedānta-bhāṣya. Not only Śaṅkarācārya. But because the Vaiṣṇavas, they know bhāṣyam brahma-sūtrāṇām **. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the actual explanation of Vedānta. So therefore they take more interest in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam because that is the actual explanation of Vedānta. Just like in the Vedānta-sūtra, the, what is Brahman, Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The inquiry is, "What is Brahman, Absolute Truth?" The Vedānta-sūtra answers... The Vedānta-sūtra is made like that, questions and answers like that. So answer is janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything is emanating." He is the ultimate fountainhead of everything. Just now we tried to explain that the state functions protecting the good citizens and punishing the criminals. That should be the state business. Wherefrom this idea came? The law and... What is called? The law and order department or what is that? Devotee: Law and order. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the idea came to the human society unless it is there in the Absolute? How the idea comes? Therefore that law and order is Viṣṇu. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The idea of law and order came from Viṣṇu. How nicely explained. Janmādy asya. In two words, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Janma means creation, and ādi, ādi means first janma, then sthiti. Sthiti means staying, maintenance. And then dissolution. So three things. Yataḥ, from where these three things are happening. That means this world is being created from that source, it is being maintained by that source, and when it is annihilated it rests in that energy, the whole energy. Pralayaṁ yānti māmikam, Bhagavad*-gītā. When everything is dissolved, the energy is absorbed by the energetic. So that is Absolute Truth. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam explains that Absolute Truth. Janmādy asya yata anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is simply said that "The Absolute Truth is that which is the fountainhead of everything." Now if fountainhead of everything, then what the Absolute Truth's nature shall be like? That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The first thing is that janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The factor, the Absolute Truth from which everything is emanating, so that emanation includes indirect and direct manifestation. What is that indirect and direct manifestation? The direct manifestation is the spiritual world and the indirect manifestation is this material world. Indirect manifestation means it is simply a shadow of the spiritual world. Just like in the Bible also it is said the man is made after God. So you have got two hands, one head, two leg. So the mental speculation is said that these devotees, they create God according to their own feature. Because I am two-handed, and therefore I create God with two hands, Kṛṣṇa. But actually, the fact is not that. Actually, because Kṛṣṇa has got two hands and we have got an imitation body of Kṛṣṇa, therefore we have got two hands. Because this is imitation. That we know everything, everyone. This body will not stay. Therefore it has got janma. Janma means birth or creation at a certain period, and it stays, say, for fifty years or hundred years. Then dissolved, dissolution. Therefore it is imitation. Just like if you create a doll, clay doll, very nice beautiful girl. But it will... It is imitation. It is shadow of the real beautiful girl. It is created at some time and... So reality is there in the spiritual world. Therefore it is called janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The idea comes from there, but the impersonalists, due to their intelligence being very meager, they think that the Absolute Truth is without any variety, impersonal or void. They think that varieties are only in the material world, but actually, real varieties are there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, ūrdhva mūlam adhah-śākha. Adhah-śākham. Aśvatthaṁ prāhur avyayam. Aśvattha... This material creation, material manifestation is compared with a banyan tree whose root is upward. And that I have explained several times how the tree can be upwards root. That means it is reflection. Just like you stand on the riverside, the tree will be reflected on the river, on the water, as obverted. That means that is reflection. As soon as we say that this is a tree, the root of which is up, that means it is reflection. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they do not take account of the mathematical calculation, 380 degree. They are taking account of... 360 degree, the whole circle. They are taking account only 180 degree. And other 180 degree they're making void. But actually, the whole point is 360 degree. That is geomatrical calculation. If you simply know 180 degree, then the other 180 degree is unknown to you. So real life, real variety, real beauty, real knowledge, everything in reality is there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection. Therefore Bhāgavata explains that janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The Supreme Absolute Truth is cognizant, abhijñaḥ. Cognizant and svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means independent. In this way, the explanation of Brahma-sūtra is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yasmin paramahaṁsam ekaṁ paraṁ jñānam jñeyate. The knowledge of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is to be understood by the paramahaṁsa, the highest perfected man, paramahaṁsa. It is not ordinary thing. Devotee: Swamiji, if all things here are a reflection of what is perfect in the spiritual world, then shouldn't hate and frustration and despair and prejudice also appear in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Does it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Then isn't that... Aren't they bad? *Prabhupāda: But that frustration has no disappointment. (laughter) That is the beauty. Just like Lord Caitanya is manifesting that spiritual frustration. "Oh Kṛṣṇa, I could not see You." He's jumping on the sea in frustration. But that frustration is the highest perfection of love. Yes. Everything is there. But without inebriety. You are very intelligent boy. I thank you. Yes. Yes. There is frustration, but not this frustration. Yes. That frustration, I mean to say, enriches one's eagerness of love for Kṛṣṇa. Everything is there, but without inebriety. Everything is there. Yes. Now see, Viṣṇu? Of course, in Vaikuṇṭha*-jagat there is no violence. But Viṣṇu is taking the symbol of violence. Otherwise what is the meaning of this disc and club? So when He wants to be violent, He comes here as Nṛsiṁha-mūrti. (laughter) And He sends some of His devotees to play violence. That is Hiraṇyakaśipu. Because there the devotees are so much in accord with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu that there is no question of disagreement. But violence is when this disagree-ment, atheist. Therefore sometimes a devotee is deputed in this world to play as atheist, and Kṛṣṇa comes to kill him. To teach these people that "If you become atheist, then here is disc and club for you." But it is not possible to be displayed in the Vaikuṇṭha. Otherwise, if there is no the propensity of violence... Just like there is sometimes mock fight. A father is fighting in mock with a small child, and he has become defeated. But there is pleasure. So ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). The Lord is joyful. So there is joy in fighting also sometimes. So your question that everything is there, that is a fact. Everything is there. Otherwise if everything is not there, they cannot be manifested here because it is reflection. Just like in... Of course, this discovery is by the Vaiṣṇava, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Just like the love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, it is called parakiya. They are not married husband and wife. But Rādhārāṇī appears to be wife of some other gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa, from childhood, They were friends. So Radhārāṇī could not forget Kṛṣṇa. She used to come to Kṛṣṇa and stand like that. That's all. And He was playing. Kiśora-Kiśorī, They were boy and girl. But there is no inebriety. Just like here the boy and girls mix and there are so many abominable things. Distressful, which is binding their material bondage. So that friendship between boy and girl is there, but without inebriety. Kṛṣṇa had so many gopīs, girlfriend, but there was no contraceptive pills. (laughter) That is the beauty. Here, the so-called love is lust. And there, that is the highest. The same thing, obverted, perverted reflection. Just like in the original tree the topmost part has come down to the down. Similarly, in the spiritual world the highest, topmost level of love, parakiya... Parakiya means love not by marriage life, by friendship. That is there. But there is no such inebriety. It is pure. So perverted means the topmost thing has come down to the lowest. Here, this parakiya, loving other's wife or other's husband, is most abominable, adultery. Not allowed by society, not allowed by the state. But tendency is there. Even one is married, he wants to love another's wife. Or if the girl married (s)he wants to love another husband. Why? That is there. But without inebriety. That is the beauty. So everything is there, but here, that thing is reflected, pervertedly. Therefore misunderstood. There is so many other corollaries. You see? But you must know everything, that without being in the Absolute Truth there cannot be relative manifestation. This world is relative manifestation. So these things are not to be understood in the beginning, but as the questions came we discussed something. But you must know, as the Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is emanated from that Absolute Truth. That is the fountainhead of everything. We cannot manufacture anything. It is not possible. But this is shadow and that is reality. And in the shadow... Just like photograph. You find that everything in detail of your beautiful face in the photograph, but that is not reality. That's all. So you'll find everything in details, all... Or you can understand actual photograph, actual idea, actual notion of the spiritual world by scrutinizingly studying this material world. The impersonalists, they think that in the material varieties there are so many abominable inebrieties, therefore in the spiritual world all these things should be minus, void. That is their material calculation. They cannot think that in the spiritual world also there is love. Because here, in this world, the so-called love or lust is frustrated and followed by so many calamities that therefore they cannot conceive that in the spiritual world also there is love. Their idea, in one sense, is right, that how these nonsensical things can exist in the spiritual world? Therefore they make it altogether minus. No variety. Impersonal. That is less intelligence. They cannot understand that photograph is the reflection of the actual person. There is everything in detail. A movie. Actually, the same man is laughing, walking, dress, everything, but it is all false. That they cannot understand. Therefore the Vaiṣṇavas say they are less intelligent. The real understanding should be that if in the real person all these features are not present, how they can be reflected in the photograph? The Māyāvādī says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Brahman, the Absolute Truth, is real truth, and this world is mithyā. Then mithyā means it is a reflection or shadow. Mithyā does not mean that it has no existence. The shadow is also existence. Therefore Vaiṣṇava philosophers say that mithyā means temporary. Now you have got this body. This is temporary. That's the real understanding. And if I say it is mithyā, then if I kill you, then why I am punished? I can say, "Oh, it is mithyā, it is false. So what is their fault?" No. It is not mithyā. It is temporary. Not mithyā. Mithyā how can it be? Because it is reflection of the reality, therefore it cannot be mithyā. Then the reality becomes mithyā. Mithyā means not fact. The real explanation is that this is shadow. Shadow, but the reality is in the spiritual world, and that is indicated in the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The fountainhead of all emanation. That is Absolute Truth. Advaita: Swamiji, last night our window was broken. Was that māyā striking at us? Prabhupāda: Hm? Advaita: Last night my window was broken. Was that māyā striking? Prabhupāda: Yes. Advaita: Kids broke the window? Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā is always striking. Why do you take only a window? Why do you compact māyā in the window? He is without window, within the window. Māyā is not only, I mean to say, limited to a certain extent. The whole world is māyā. Jagan mithyā. The whole universe is māyā. Only that part is not māyā where the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is there. Devotees: Haribol. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: As soon as there was some slacking in Hare Kṛṣṇa the māyā struck. (laughs) Yes. Yes. Govinda dāsī: Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are asking at the last moment. You are very much careful about time. Govinda dāsī: Oh. I didn't know. Prabhupāda: No, you ask me. Govinda dāsī: No, I won't ask. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you ask. Yes. Yes. Govinda dāsī: Could you describe Kṛṣṇa's pastimes as cowboy whenever He goes out in the morning with the cowherds boys? Prabhupāda: Yes, you can... Because... Have you seen how the... You have no experience here in your country. Have you got any experience? But in India we have got experience how in the morning the cowboy takes some food from the mother and with the cows he goes to the field. The cows are let loose on the grazing ground. They are enjoying, and this cowboy is sometimes singing. The flute, Kṛṣṇa's flute is because He is cowboy. The cowboys still play in that flute. In India you'll find. Because the cows are let... They are doing their own work, and what this boy will do? They are playing. There are many cowherds boys, they are playing. Sometimes playing on flutes, sometimes sporting, sometimes eating. So Kṛṣṇa was exactly doing like that. All the cowboy friend went with Him. Kṛṣṇa was, of course, a very rich man's son. His father was very rich. So He used to take with Him very nice foodstuff, lugdoo, kacaurī. And other, His poor friends, they were taking capātīs, dry capātīs. (laughs) So they were enjoying, dividing, "Your food, my food, his food." And sometimes there was some trouble in the forest because Kamsa was after Kṛṣṇa to kill Him. He was sending his assistants. So some asura would come, Bakāsura, Aghāsura, and Kṛṣṇa would kill. And the boys would return and narrate the story to their mother. "Oh, my dear mother! Such and such thing happened and Kṛṣṇa killed it! Very..." (laughter) The mother will, "Oh, yes, our Kṛṣṇa is very wonderful!" (laughter) So Kṛṣṇa was their enjoyment. That's all. The mother is speaking of Kṛṣṇa, the boy is speaking of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore they did not know anything but Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa. Whenever there is some trouble, "Oh Kṛṣṇa." When there is fire, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa." That is the beauty of Vṛndāvana. Their mind is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. Not through philosophy. Not through understanding, but natural love. "Kṛṣṇa is our village boy, our relative, our friend, our lover, our master." Some way or other, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beauty. Therefore Śukadeva Gosvāmī is describing the playing of the boys. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You can take this. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (offer obeisances) (end) Room Conversation -- April 12, 1969, New York Brahmānanda: It's the capital. Gargamuni: Tallahassee. Prabhupāda: Miami is the capital. Brahmānanda: No. Miami is a big tourist city. Prabhupāda: Oh. Janārdana: It's all tourist, the whole place. Gargamuni: There's an Indian fellow in the San Francisco temple. He comes very often. He's a student, and his name is Vinode. Prabhupāda: Vinode. Gargamuni: Yes. And he helps us cook prasādam. And he cooks in the kitchen and oh, he says, "Kṛṣṇa is my only life." He says he was so happy to find a temple here. Prabhupāda: Very good. Gargamuni: He mentioned to me that he's married and that he has a child in India. And he asked, "Oh, were you married?" And I said, "No. My wife was taken away." And he came over and he hugged me. "Oh," he said, "you are so lucky." (laughter) He hugged me. He said, "Oh, you are so lucky." *Prabhupāda: (chuckling) There is a Tulasī das poetry, din ka ḍākinī rat ka bhāginī gargara bhāginī cuṣe. Bhāginī. Tulasī das had very good, beautiful wife, and he was very much attached to her. So the system is that after the girl is staying with her husband... Because young girls, very minor age, they were married, say, ten years, nine years, twelve years. But they're allowed to live with husband, say, after thirteen years or fourteen years, when she has attained puberty. So the system is six months father house and six months husband. In this way, going and coming. But when she is elderly she can remain continually with her ...but in the beginning... Because after all, she is girl, so she cannot tolerate the separation from father and mother. So six months here, six months... So Tulasī das, as soon as the, his father*-in-law will come to take his daughter, he won't allow. He won't allow. Brahmānanda: Oh, he's so attached. Prabhupāda: Yes. "She'll go later on. She'll go." So he went back. The father used to..., went back. In this way, several times. Then it was agreed that the girl would go there, father's house, and the father took the girl in the morning, and in the evening Tulasī dāsa went there. (laughs) His wife chastised, "You are so rascal fool that I have come this morning and you have, evening you are here? You have so much attachment for the skin?" Just like husband and wife talking. That struck him very badly, and he immediately left that place and went to... Left home for good. Yes. And that was the initiation that he took up writing about Rāma. That is Tulasī dāsa's life. Just being, I mean to say, hurt by the words of wife, that "I love her,"... Later on he understood, "Yes, she is right. So why should I be so much attached?" She uttered this (indistinct), "If you have got so much attachment for this skin and bone; *if you had so much attachment for Rāma then your life would have been different." So he took it seriously. "Why not attachment for Rāma?" So he became a great devotee of Rāma, Tulasī das. His book, Rāma*-carita-mānasa. "Thinking always of Rāma," that is his book. It is very famous book, and that is the only important literature in the Hindi language, Rāma-carita-mānasa. It is very popular in India. Village to village. Practically Gītā Press has flourished simply by selling the Rāma-carita-mānasa and Gītā. Gītā and Rāma-carita-mānasa. Two books. Millions of books they print and sell, this Rāma-carita-mānasa and Bhagavad-gītā. So he has written that din ka dakini. In the daytime she is just like what is called, witches. Witch? Witch? Brahmānanda: Witch, yes. Prabhupāda: Ḍākinī. And rat ka bhāginī. At night she is tigress. Devotee: She's what? Brahmānanda: Tigress. Prabhupāda: Tigress. At daytime she is witches. Witch or witches? Brahmānanda: Witch. Prabhupāda: Witch. And at night she is tigress. So that is the nature of woman. But the world is so made that everyone is keeping such tigress. (laughs heartily) Din ka ḍākinī rat ka bhāginī. (Hindi) Every moment she is sucking blood. She is such a dangerous tigress. Every moment sucking blood. But (Hindi) the people, the world, people of the world has gone so crazy that each one is keeping one tigress. (laughs) Brahmānanda: Right in the home. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Tulasī dāsa's remark. So in many passages of his poetry he has not done very justice to woman. And another poetry, he writes, dhol guṇār śūdra narī. Dhol guṇār śūdra narī ihe sab śaśan ke adhikārī.(?) Dhol guṇār paśu śūdra narī, ihe sab śaśan ke adhikārī. Dhol, dhol means drum, mṛdaṅga. Gunar, guṇār means... What is called English? A fool, fool. Illiterate fool, what is one word? Brahmānanda: Buffoon? Prabhupāda: Maybe buffoon. Buffoon is sometimes troublesome. But guṇār means he doesn't understand very nicely. Brahmānanda: Dullard. Prabhupāda: Dull, dull. Dhol guṇār, dhol means drum and guṇār means dull. Śūdra, and the laborer class. Three. Dhol, guṇār, śūdra, and paśu, household animals, just like cows, dogs. Brahmānanda: Pet. Prabhupāda: Pet, like that. Dhol guṇār śūdra paśu and narī. Nari means woman. (laughs) Just see. He has classified the narī amongst these class, dhol, guṇār, śūdra, paśu, narī. Ihe sab śaśan ke adhikārī. Sasan ke adhikārī means all these are subjected for punishment. And what about the guest? Govinda dāsī: Oh, the guest? It's coming. *Prabhupāda: So śaśan ke adhikārī means they should be punished. (laughs) Punished means, just like dhol, when the, I mean to say, sound is not very hard, dag*-dag, if you beat it on the border, then it comes to be nice tune. Similarly, paśu, animals, if you request, "My dear dog, please do not go there." Hut! (laughter) "No, my dear dog." Hut! This is the way.(?) Similarly, woman. If you become lenient, then she will be troublesome. So in India still, in villages, whenever there is some quarrel between husband wife, the husband beats and she is tamed. (laughs) In civilized society, "Oh, you have done this?" Immediately some criminal case. But in uncivilized society they don't care for court or civilized way of... Kicharī. (prasādam being served) Rayarama: Swamiji, Janārdana told me that from Vedic sources, you drew some conclusion that there are different universes visible? The stars are different universes? What is that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rayarama: So each star is a different universe. Prabhupāda: Begin, begin. (eating) Yes. Gargamuni, you distribute this purī. Gargamuni: Made some curry. (everyone eating for a long time) Prabhupāda: Everything hot. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Before Kṛṣṇa consciousness, was there any purī manufactured here? No. (laughs) Gargamuni: No. None of this. Brahmānanda: When I first came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I'd only been coming I think maybe two days to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then Mukunda had his wedding. Oh, that hooked me. Nice wedding and nice feasting. I was hooked. Rāyarāma: That was the day after our initiations. They initiated the night before. We had two days feasting. Devotee: I came into San Francisco looking for a spiritual teacher and I came to prasādam and I never left. Gargamuni: I think that's what hooked all of us. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva*-duhkhānāṁ hanir asyopajāyate. (pause) Thank you. Govinda dāsī has become very good housewife. Yes. (pause) Rāyarāma, come. Kṛṣṇa baṛo doyāmoy koribāre jihvā jay sva-prasād-anna dilo bhāi. No more. (end) Prabhupäda Listening to Recording of His Own Room Conversation with Students -- April 25, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: So if you have got any question, you can ask. Student (1): My question, that one child (inaudible)...Kṛṣṇa conscious... [Break] ...I don't know... Prabhupāda: I told you that I do not expect that everyone will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible. But if there is one moon in the sky, that is sufficient to eradicate the darkness. You don't require many stars. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ. If one man understands perfectly what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, he can do tremendous benefit to the other people. So you are all intelligent boys and girls. You try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy with all your reason or argument. But try to understand it seriously. Don't make it a farce. That is the object of life. Student (2): When you've got that... (inaudible) ...Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then you become unconscious, and then you become conscious, and then you become unconscious. And it extended like that, backwards and forwards, for five minutes. Is that Vedic? Prabhupāda: What is that? Unconscious? You are unconscious or you answer? Student (2): I have read and thought that... Prabhupāda: To become unconscious. Student (2): ...that God, the force who made everything and more in this (inaudible)..., in making this, (inaudible)...playing a game. And you play a game by playing hide and seek. The whole point of the game is that someone is hidden from you. Prabhupāda: There is nothing hide and seek here. It is all open. Yes? Student (2): Years ago, everyone was Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Everyone was...? When? Student (3): When? In the beginning. Student (2): If you sit down and you look very closely into his eyes, and you get closer and closer and closer and closer. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is their doubt? Student (2): You can go all the way, all the way, all the way, and what do you find? (laughter) Prabhupāda: You can find. I cannot find. Student (3): I wanted material world, being in spiritual consciousness is to get... Prabhupāda: Yes. We are trying that. Calling everyone, "Come and push your conscious." We are inviting everyone. There is no restriction. And it is very easy. Just try to dance and chant. That's all. In the treatment they are taking part. That child is taught something of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He'll be a very good child. So it is open to everyone. There is no restriction. Student (4): (inaudible) Prabhupāda: That I have explained, that changing our body, there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So after death, you enter in one of the bodies. Student (4): And what happens? Prabhupāda: As happens... As you enter the body, the happening is according to the body. Student (4): But does this go on and on indefinitely or does it stop? Do you just keep changing bodies indefinitely or does it end? Prabhupāda: Not indefinitely. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you haven't got to change this material body. You are transferred to the spiritual world. There is eternal body. Student (4): Oh. Does everyone go there or only some? *Prabhupāda: It is accepted that everyone goes. But if somehow you are stubborn to remain here, how one can help? (laughter) Just like the university is open for everyone. But somebody is stubborn to go to the prison department. So how the government can help? Government does not say that "Some selected people come to the university, and others go to the prison department." It is open for everyone, but it is the particular mentality*-one is going to the university; one is going to the prison house. That is your individual independence. That is your choice. Just like so many students, they have come here. Others have not come here. So everyone has got little independence. So everyone can go to the spiritual world if he likes. But if he does not like, he will remain here. That is his choice. Student (5): (inaudible)... Why do you butter, ...cheese ...? Prabhupāda: I do not know. No. We avoid. Student (5): (inaudible)...Is that part of the whole...? Prabhupāda: No. There is not part only, but we discourage killing. That is in the Bible also, "Thou shall not kill," but they are killing. What can be done? In the Bible, Ten Commandments, there is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. What shall be done? Student (6): Have you ever found what you believe to be your self? Have you ever found your inside, I mean, not physically or mental... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Student (6): What...? Prabhupāda: Yes! (laughter) Student (6): Could you tell us what you found. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I am prepared to tell you, and this center is open for telling you. Our books are there. It is not a paltry subject that you can understand immediately, but I can give you one instance. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Student (7): Do you use your body when you speak? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Student (7): Tell me. You said (inaudible)... that I am the soul that enters the body... (inaudible) *Prabhupāda: Yes. I change my body. Just like if I change this apartment, does it mean I shall stop speaking? Similarly, if I change this apartment of body, does it mean that I shall stop speaking? That's right. (laughter) All right. Let us now chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (The recording of the recording ends here*-tape is turned off) Prabhupāda: There is chanting? All right. There is chanting recorded? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Just see. (end) Room Conversation -- April 27, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: So we take account of past, present, future of this creation. When I say, "Some years ago I was there," that means within this creation. It does not go some years in your past creation. Do you follow what I say? Are you following what I am saying? Devotee (1) (woman): Yes. Prabhupāda: You are feeling all right? Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You did not go to the airport? Satsvarūpa: No. I gave the lecture that was cancelled at... Prabhupāda: Oh. Lecture? Satsvarūpa: You were supposed to give a lecture today, but because you gave a lecture last night in Buffalo, we cancelled it and I went instead. Prabhupāda: So you lectured there? That's nice. Now you have to lecture. I will have to retire. (chuckles) I want that all my students now should be prepared. Puruṣottama, you sit down. You are standing. You come here. Sit down. When, at present, when we speak of past, present, future, we refer to this particular creation of my body. Is it not? Similarly, "never return back." "Never return back" means... What is your question? I... missing point. Whose question it...? Yes. Devotee (1): What is the question? That if we've never been with Kṛṣṇa, if we've never been in Kṛṣṇaloka, then how is it that we start remembering His pastimes and His form? *Prabhupāda: You remember Kṛṣṇa's pastimes by hearing Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. You can hear Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. That you can remember. Devotee (1): But how can we remember if we've never known them before? Prabhupāda: How you can remember? Devotee (1): If we haven't known it. *Prabhupāda: You can know it by hearing from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Why we are citing so many scriptures, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā? Just to remember. Devotee (1): Just to remember? Prabhupāda: Something you forget, but I tell you repeatedly, you hear; you remember. Is it not? Here something you have forgotten completely, and I remind you constantly. Then don't you remember? Devotee (1): Yes. But I don't understand how is it that we forgot it... How can we remember... Prabhupāda: Forgot, you forgot. That is your nature. You forget so many things. You cannot remember what you were doing exactly at this time yesterday. Can you remember immediately? Forgetfulness is our nature. We are very minute; *therefore our..., we are subjected to the quality of forgetfulness. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was asking Kṛṣṇa that "How I can believe that you told this philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā to Vivasvān?" He said that "In... I, first of all, I told to Vivasvān." So in reply to that question, Kṛṣṇa said that "Both you and I had many, many births before, but you have forgotten; I remember." That is the difference between the Supreme Lord and ourself. He does not forget. He remembers everything, past, present, future, all, but we forget. That is the difference between God and living entity. We are subjected to forgetfulness. So we forget; *again, if it is reminded, we remind. That is our nature. So at the present moment we are forgetful of our eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And then, by good association, by constant chanting, hearing, remembering, we again revoke our old consciousness. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So forgetfulness is not wonderful. It is natural. We forget. But if we keep constant touch, we may not forget. Therefore this association of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, devotees, and constant repetition of the chanting, scripture, that will keep us intact without forgetting. Satataṁ kirtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. We have to continue this service constantly. Then we shall not forget. Forgetfulness is not wonderful. That is our nature. That is our nature. And that is the difference between ourself and God. God does not forget. We forget. We are claiming, some of us, foolishly claiming, that "I am God, but I forget." God does not forget. Therefore I am not God. Is that clear? That is the difference between living jīva and Śiva, God. He does not forget. In the Bhagavad-gītā He says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni: [Bg. 7.26] "I know everything of this present, past, future, everything." But we do not know. We have forgotten. In our daily life, in our childhood, so many things we did. We don't remember. But our parents may remember that as a child, that we did this. So forgetfulness is our nature. But if we keep constant touch with Kṛṣṇa, then He will give us remembrance. So sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fifteenth Chapter. Now you read Bhagavad-gītā very carefully. In our examination next January... Yes. From Bhagavad-gītā for title of bhakti-śāstrī. Now we have to make our organization regularly a spiritual institution so that we may be recognized, and our students may be freed from this draft board requisition. That I am... Next step is going on. [Break] Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Puruṣottama? Why don't you get that tape? Yes. Puruṣottama: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tasya samādhikaś ca dṛśyate. This is from Upaniṣad. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki*-jnana-bala-kriya ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. It is said that nobody is seeing... This is called research. You are accepting any nonsense as God, and they do not have any information from the..., that God means na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tasya samādhikaś ca dṛśyate: "God has nothing to do, no responsibility. Nobody is found greater than Him." So if this Vedic injunction is followed, if somebody is claiming, "I am God," we have to see whether he has nothing to do and whether nobody is greater than him. And these two tests will make him false immediately. He has to prove that nobody is greater than... Even contemporary... Suppose I am claiming I am God. So I have to show that at the present moment, throughout the whole world, apart from universe, nobody is greater than me. Then I am... Will these pretenders be able to show that nobody is greater than him? This is a simple test. And na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate: "And he has nothing to do." There are so many things to test who is God. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. Nobody shall be richer than him; nobody shall be stronger than him; nobody shall be wiser than him; *nobody shall be beautiful than him. So these things have to be tested, whether he is God. And simply if I claim, "Oh, I am God," there will... No testament? If I say, "I am President Nixon," will you accept it? If you don't accept it, even an ordinary President Nixon, without testing his credentials, how you will accept a false man as God without testing? You must know what is that test. Credential. He must present credential. Just like when some ambassador comes to a foreign country, there is a ceremony that that ambassador must be recognized by the governor or the governor*-general in that state, and he has to place his credentials, similarly, anybody is claiming as God, he has to place his credentials. And what is that credential? The test is there in the Upaniṣad, in the Bhagavad-gītā and so many, all literatures, Brahma-saṁhitā, Vedānta-sūtra, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam first it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. Svarāṭ, svarāṭ means fully independent. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. The Supreme Truth, fully independent. We are not fully independent. And just now, if I feel a little toothache, I will have to go to a doctor. So how can I claim that I am God? God's first qualification is fully independent, svarāṭ. Abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means fully cognizant of everything. What is that? Puruṣottama: Lugdoos. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All right. Take. Distribute little. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He is the Lord, but He has nothing to do. He is simply enjoying with His friends, with Radharani, with cowherds boy, with gopīs. That is greatness. He has nothing to think, "How to provide?" (chuckles) That is greatness. He is taking the cows as a sporting. You see? And when He was called for killing Kaṁsa, He left everything, renounced everything. Aiśvarya samagrasya yaśasaḥ... Everything in full, so much love, so much everything, but at once, in a moment, He renounced everything, went to..., left Vṛndāvana, and all these devotees, they began to cry for Kṛṣṇa for the rest of life. And whenever Kṛṣṇa was reminded, oh, He will say, "I am very soon coming. Don't worry. I am very soon coming." (chuckles) You see? Girl: Have took, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have taken. You take. You know how to make lugdoo? Himavatī is good. (chuckles) She learned many things about... We have got another nice girl in Buffalo. I have given her name... What is? Sadā? Pradyumna: Sadānandinī. Prabhupāda: A very nice girl. Yes. Always chanting and dancing and always jolly. (chuckling) Very nice girl. You know her? No. She has recently joined. She is good devotee, good worker, very nice. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Anyone who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness immediately becomes beautiful in every respect. [Break] Haṁsadūta: Puruṣottama. Prabhupāda: How many rose trees Jayānanda has... Puruṣottama: 108. Prabhupāda: 108. So at least 108 flowers we'll have daily. Yes. So it is very nice. Our Hawaii, tulasi grows very nice. Haṁsadūta: Hawaii. They have a new place? Prabhupāda: Yes, the place where now Govinda dāsī is staying, a very nice place, just on the seaside. And the house is two stories, entire house among the fig trees. There is nice arrangement. So you have any correspondence with her? Jadurāṇī: A little. Prabhupāda: So what does she say? *Jadurāṇī: She said the flowers weren't out yet, but that was months ago. We have some mail for you. One letter is from her with up*-to-date news. Prabhupāda: Oh. Some devotees are coming. And in Honolulu, two boys, they are also doing. In Hawaii there are two branches now. Yes. One at Honolulu, one at Kauai. Kauai. That island's name is Oahu. Hawaii has five islands' stretch, and this is called Oahu. Oahu island, one side, Honolulu, and one side... This island means hill. And the valley of the hills are utilized for residential purposes. So all sides, Pacific Ocean. And there is ample production of sugar cane and pineapple. I was chewing sugar cane as it is. Yes. And there is so many coconut trees, palm trees, and mango. In mango season they throw away mangos. So I have asked Govinda dāsī that "You make mango pulp and dry it and send it." So they are doing nice, husband and wife, Gaurasundara, yes, trying their best. I do not know whether they are working now. Himāvatī: Govinda dāsī is working. Prabhupāda: Working. She can work. She can earn $400 at least. Haṁsadūta: Typing? Prabhupāda: Yes. She is good typist. Haṁsadūta: We have one boy in Montreal. He says that he wants to go to Florida the first of May. His father is a real estate man. So he wants to get a job and then get a temple, and he wants someone to come there. He said me preferably. Prabhupāda: All right. This South, North Carolina, they are also doing... (laughs) Haṁsadūta: He wants to go to Palm Beach. Palm Beach is the richest place in the country. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and everything will be all right. And Buffalo is also doing nice. Oh, yes. The students are educated circle. They are taking interest, both the boys and girls. And three meetings I attended. Every meeting was full, two hundred boys and girls. They were dancing, chanting, asking very intelligent questions. And Rūpānuga is holding class. There will be some examination of the students. They accept papers. Yes. Some Indians are coming from long distance. One Indian gentleman, he came to see me from, what is that place? Ninety*-two miles away from Buffalo. Himāvatī: Did you see Nauvanī? Prabhupāda: Nauvanī is there. Yes. He is there still. He is also very good. He works very nice in the temple. Haṁsadūta: Every day. Prabhupāda: He's a very good man. Everyone who will come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become good man, even he's a bad man. That is the influence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair gunaiḥ tatra samāsate suraḥ. All godly qualities will develop in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the test. Now, our students, nobody can compare with their behavior, with their character, with their innocence. Everything nicer. So don't worry. Simply go on chanting. Everything will be all right. Don't worry. Jadurāṇī: Doesn't sound like you're concerned about temple affairs. Prabhupāda: No. It... That's all right. For the time being you don't touch. You chant and everything will be... Soon you will be in good health. Then you will again work. Yes. Śāradīyā, you are painting? No. All right, you finish your school. You are going to school? Śāradīyā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. You are painting? That's nice. You? That's nice. Practice painting nicely. We'll require so many pictures. We shall publish so many pictures, book. You are not painting. You have no time to paint. You have got enough engagement. So you can... So long you are here, you just show how to Deity worship, how you are doing that, and they will learn. Yes. She is doing that very nice. So you can, all of you, all girls, you take, her. See doing, how she is doing. Who is doing your temple worship? Haṁsadūta: Are you going to give some more instruction? Prabhupāda: No. This is... In this age temple worship is not recommended. Haṁsadūta: It's not recommended. But Deity worship is temple worship? *Prabhupāda: It is Deity worship. Because nobody can actually, very nicely perform, this age is not suitable. You see? Temple worship, the regulation, the engagement*-at least four, five men must always be engaged, always, twenty-four hours. Haṁsadūta: In the temple worship. In the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. We haven't got sufficient men, neither we can arrange such a way. Besides that, your previous culture, everything is completely different. So in this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu has..., this saṅkīrtana, Hare Kṛṣṇa, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. This is all round. But at the same time, if you can perform as far as possible, that's nice, Deity worship. In this age Deity worship is secondary. Saṅkīrtana is primary. Haṁsadūta: Does it matter who performs the Deity worship? Does it matter? I mean is it some particular person? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is called arcana*-siddhi. Haṁsadūta: Who should do it? I mean, in the temple who should do it? *Prabhupāda: No, everyone should do it. Yes, everyone should learn. Everyone should learn. Sometimes somebody is doing something, somebody is doing something. Yes, like that. Everyone should be expert in every respect, twenty*-six qualifications. (car noise outside) You have got car here? No. Nobody has got car amongst our disciples? Jadurāṇī: No. Himavatī: Do you need a car, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: No, because the temple is here, just in front. So what is the use of car? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, I found a place very likely for a new temple. And I've gone so far as... The lawyer even drew up a lease. So maybe tomorrow you could look at it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. What is the description? Satsvarūpa: Very excellent location, right downtown. The things wrong with it is that the temple area is no bigger than the temple area we have now, but the location is just the greatest. Second floor. Still, right downtown. Prabhupāda: Second floor. So what is the rent? *Satsvarūpa: Three hundred a month. But we can do it as long as... Presently, Patita*-pāvana is working and so am I, and sometimes the gopīs get some money. So we wouldn't have any problem as long as Patita-pāvana would continue to work. Prabhupāda: All right, Kṛṣṇa will solve the problems. But the space is not lesser than this temple? Satsvarūpa: Well, the temple room is maybe even smaller than the present temple room, but then there's another large, very large room for a kitchen and then another space where bunks could be for sleeping. So there's actually three different spaces. The thing is that the main temple hall is not too large. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That doesn't matter. You have to take saṅkīrtana party. That should be the main business. And the..., at least sixteen men, four mṛdaṅgas. Practice mṛdaṅga like that. And twelve cymbals, and one chanting and all others responding. Oh, it will be tremendous. Take some flags, "ISKCON, Hare Kṛṣṇa" flag, red flag. You see? And conchshell, mṛdaṅga. In New York they are doing now, and they also one day collected 240 dollars or something like that. What is that? Puruṣottama: 247. Prabhupāda: 247. You see? (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: I'll try in Montreal. We have new devotees now, lot of new boys. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, you will get devotees. You just begin saṅkīrtana party. You will get many devotees. You see? In Los Angeles, daily the devotees, new devotees, are coming, and very nice boys. We are now searching after a bigger place. Yes. That temple is not sufficient, although that is the biggest center of all our centers. It has got compound. It has got parking place. It has got two big halls, one big room, one big kitchen, and three, four, five small rooms. It is a nice situation, you see, just suitable for our purpose. And they decorate Jagannātha very nicely. Yes. So increase centers. And what is the name of the boy who went to... Nanda*-rūpa(?). He wants to open Toronto? Haṁsadūta: In Toronto. Toronto is a very good place to go. Prabhupāda: So let him open. Haṁsadūta: Let him go? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Okay. But not alone. He needs someone else, I think. He needs one more boy. I don't think by himself he can do it. Prabhupāda: That we shall arrange, somebody to go. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Maybe you remember Mr. Sini(?) in Montreal? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Well, he approached me just recently. He wants to open a store, Indian store and goods, and he wants the boys in the temple to work there. He wants to make some arrangement so the temple will get some money. Prabhupāda: He is very cunning man. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know. I don't trust him at all. Prabhupāda: He wants to utilize our men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Don't deal with him, right? That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: He wants a cheap, cheap price. [Break] I don't believe all these things they have... They have come here to beg, to make money. You see? Their mentality cannot be good. Haṁsadūta: I have a letter for you from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is a good boy. Haṁsadūta: Oh, he's very nice. Oh, he's getting so nice. He wants to come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because he is serving. Himavatī: He lives in our house now. Haṁsadūta: He lives with us now. You know we have another house, the whole house, and almost everyone now is a devotee there. And they're eating prasādam. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is very nice boy. You give him good protection, and he will turn very good help. Sevonmukhe... This Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be, I mean to say, appreciated only by service. There is no other, no other way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. You cannot catch Kṛṣṇa by any way, by your riches, by your beauty, by your..., because He excels everything. How you can make Him under your control? You can simply make Him under your control by service, like the gopīs did. Yes. What is this? Prasāda? Oh, I think I cannot take any. All right, I shall take some. Satsvarūpa: The devotees have prasādam over at the temple that's ready. Prabhupāda: Oh, they can take. They can go. [Break]... initiated, they are chanting mantras three times, oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ savitur vareṇyam? Yes. (devotees chanting japa) Haṁsadūta: What are they called? Prabhupāda: It costs not much with single... (Someone turns on tape of chanting) Oh, the... Middle. Middle. What is this? Tune? Tune? No, what is called? Satsvarūpa: Speed. Prabhupāda: Speed. Yes. That's all right. Oh, so many things. This is the rest of... Haṁsadūta: Conchshell. Prabhupāda: Is it broken? Haṁsadūta: A little bit. What is this for, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: This pancapātra. Haṁsadūta: What do you put in there? Ghee? Prabhupāda: No. Water. Ācamana. And what is this? Himāvatī: Look inside. Prabhupāda: Jagannātha? Himāvatī: Yes. (end) Conversation Before Lecture -- April 29, 1969, Brandeis University, Boston Miss Rose: It's not in good order Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Eh? Miss Rose: It's not in good order. Prabhupāda: Which order? Miss Rose: Well, my house where I live. Prabhupāda: No, no. I say that you purchase one house. Miss Rose: Participate in one house? Prabhupāda: Purchase. Devotee: Purchase. Buy. Miss Rose: Oh. Am I gonna dig gold? Prabhupāda: Oh, you have no money? Miss Rose: To buy a house? I wish I did. I'd take all of the disciples and put 'em all in one house. Prabhupāda: Yes. You just make one down payment, and they will pay monthly. Miss Rose: Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa will help you. Miss Rose: Kṛṣṇa! Candanācārya: Sell your car! Miss Rose: I've got a bad back. I can't walk. Candanācārya: Your car helps your back? Prabhupāda: Oh, your car is so nice. If I would have remained here, I would ask you to donate this car to the society. Miss Rose: Can never tell what I do for (Prabhupāda chuckling) all my sisters and my brothers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Miss Rose: These are all my sisters and brothers, Swamiji. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. certainly. So don't worry. Kṛṣṇa will give you better place. Satsvarūpa: That was a disappointment because we almost, almost had it. Prabhupāda: Yes. No question of disappointment. In Los Angeles, we had so many disappointments. At last, we got very nice place. Now we are after bigger place. Candanācārya: Tell Swamiji about the church we want to get. Miss Rose: The church...? Prabhupāda: Then that article has worked adversely? Satsvarūpa: Yeah. The real estate man said if it had only come out a week later, he said, "You'd be in." Prabhupāda: So publicity like this is not good for us, that people are thinking we are hippies. Miss Rose: Yes. That's true, Swamiji. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So then you should not give publicity. You must even in the beginning verify that we are not hippies. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is not for hippies. In many places this is a notion, that we are hippies. Devotee: Montreal. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Montreal too, the same thing. Miss Rose: Yes, but a lot of hippies have gone back to... They've went to Florida, Swamiji. Thousands of hippies went back to Florida. They left Boston. Prabhupāda: They are, most of them, in Hawaii also. Miss Rose: Oh, there's some in Hawaii too? Prabhupāda: Yes. Miss Rose: Oh. Candanācārya: Prabhupāda, I think he was worried because... [Break] Prabhupāda: ...all right. We don't hate hippies. We have nothing... But these people misunderstand. That is... That is another thing. We welcome everyone. We have no such distinction. Miss Rose: Oh, yes, yes. Everyone can come. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Miss Rose: Kṛṣṇa's good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Kṛṣṇa wants a better place for us. Miss Rose: Kṛṣṇa wants a better place. Prabhupāda: (laughing) And also it is a fact that many of our students have come from the hippies. Haṁsadūta: Almost all of them. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So they are our best candidates. So you can advertise that "We are not hippies, but we are converting many hippies to the sane condition of life." That's a fact. They are searching after something better, but they have no leader. Miss Rose: Yes, that's true. That's it. Prabhupāda: They have no leader. Now, if they come to us seriously, they get the right thing. But that is also their defect. When we propose, "Come and take this Kṛṣṇa," they don't want. They want that marijuana. Candanācārya: Prabhupāda, my mother had the idea of going to rich parents who are very anxious about their children who've become hippies and saying that this movement... Prabhupāda: So you should write article that "We are not hippies, but we are converting hippies to the sane condition. So father, mothers, who are anxious for their children, let them send their children to us. We take care." In this way you make impression in the public mind. Candanācārya: And also they make donations. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our New Vrindaban scheme is there. Let them help and send their children. We make just opposite number of hippies. Yes. Miss Rose: Swamiji, but that has to advertised in papers... Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? This is a service. You can do it. Miss Rose: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: You are acquainted with so many people. You are experienced. Miss Rose: But I mean so that people can read it. So they'll understand it's not hippies. Prabhupāda: Yes. You go to responsible men and see, that "This is a nice movement. Why don't you patronize it to save your country's from the hippies' falling down, confusion?" We are saving. Practically this society is giving the best service to your country. They should appreciate, but they should not misunderstand us. How we can be hippies? We completely... That is also said. How foolish man he is, that, er... In that article, Satsvarūpa, in that article, it is clearly stated that we are refusing all these things. How they conclude that we are hippies? Satsvarūpa: It wasn't a bad article. Prabhupāda: Oh! What a nonsense he is! Candanācārya: He is worried that hippies come to the ceremonies to see us. Prabhupāda: Oh. Candanācārya: I think that's why he's worried about hippies. Prabhupāda: Oh. Candanācārya: Because he saw photographs that audience was hippies. Prabhupāda: Oh. So that we cannot cancel: "These hippies are not admitted." No. We admit everyone. We cannot say that "Such and such person cannot enter into our temple." We cannot say. Everyone is welcome. Everyone is welcome. And, if they do not come, how they'll converted? Miss Rose: I think that the confusion is... Prabhupāda: We cannot say, just like, in some hotels, that "Such and such persons are not admitted." No. We cannot. We admit everyone. Our mission is to elevate persons from down state of life to the highest state of life. So everyone is in down state. Lord Jesus Christ also said that "You do not hate the sinners, but hate sin." Is not that, Lord Jesus Christ said? So hippies may be sinners. We raise them to the pious life. But we say, "Don't do this. Don't do this sinful act. Don't take intoxication. Don't do this. Don't do this." We hate sin, not the sinners. Actually. If we hate sinners, then where is the possibility of preaching? Miss Rose: If the hippies would come, come, come... Prabhupāda: Yes. Miss Rose: Then you can get them out of this hippie into Christian conscience. See. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Miss Rose: Yes. I can understand that. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All right. Kṛṣṇa will see. So you just give service to Kṛṣṇa, impressing people that these Kṛṣṇa conscious people are not hippies. Miss Rose: Oh, yes! I told a lot of people. You know, Swamiji, the first time when I heard about 95 Glenville Avenue, the first time, a woman told me that, she says, "You know," she says, "gypsies, we have neighbors, gypsies on the street." "Gypsies! I haven't seen any gypsies." Well, I put my shoes. I went downstairs. I went to the door and I start reading. I says, "This is spiritual. This is beautiful. This is spiritual." I forgot right away. So she came to the door, Jadurani. She came to the door and she said, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and she said, "Come in." I came in and she started talking to me and that's... I got started. So when I seen her, I said, "That's not gypsies. That's not gypsies." And I explained it to her. "Oh," she said, "I seen the curtains in the window," she said, "and I thought they were gypsies." "Oh, well," I explained it to her. "Oh," I says. I let her have it, there was no gypsies there. So she used to see me coming down to got to the temple. So nice, yeah? Do you like that place, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Which place? Miss Rose: Where the disciples are now, on Glenville Avenue? Or do you think that you need another place? Prabhupāda: No, sometimes the, some children disturb. They broke... Miss Rose: No. Oh, I know they broke the windows. I know that. You know, Swamiji, it's very hard to find apartments, and, Swamiji, they're very expensive. $125, $135, $145 dollars a month, the apartments are. See. Yeah. And they're very, very hard to find. And sometimes I want to get out of there myself. Because, I mean, there is so many... It's really turning out to be kind of a bad, a lot of children there. Prabhupāda: Let us see. As Kṛṣṇa desires. Begin kīrtana. Chant. (end) Room Conversation -- April 30, 1969, Boston *Prabhupāda: These four things, namely birth, death, old age, and disease will accompany you. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that mad-dhāma gatvā punar janma na vidyate. "If you reach My abode in the spiritual sky, then you'll have no more birth." So this male-female question is everywhere. The only difference is that in spiritual world there is no need of sex life, or there is no impelling sex life, although there is attraction between man and woman. That is... Just like Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. There is attraction, of Rādhā for Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa for Rādhā, but there is no sex life. So male-female, conception of male-female, as we have got here, there is concomitant factor of sex life, but that should not be exported to the spiritual world, that idea. There is also male-female, but there is no sex life attraction. That's all right. Yes? *Pradyumna: Swamiji, I read in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in the purport to the (inaudible) ...ślokas... And I saw in another book about sambandha, abhidheya, (inaudible) ... Could you explain that? *Prabhupāda: That is called prayojana. Everyone enters into contact or agreement with another. What is the idea? To achieve some profit. To get some profit. Similarly, we have got... (break*-kīrtana) (end) Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio Prabhupāda: Param Brahman. Param means the chief, param. Kīrtanānanda: Param Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Param Brahman. We are all Brahmans. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Every one of us, living entity, Brahman. But He is the chief Brahman. Just like you are all Americans, but your president is the chief American. Do you understand? So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the chief Brahman. You are all Brahman, but He is the chief Brahman. Is it clear? That's all right. [Break] ...that "This boy hears very nicely. He does not go away," the first impression he gave to other godbrothers. "So I shall make him disciple." These very words he said. Actually I did not follow him in the beginning. High philosophical speaking and I was a new boy. I could not follow him, but actually I was so much glad to hear him. That's all. So that was my qualification, whatever you may say. I was simply asking, "When Guru Mahārāja will speak? When he will speak? When?" And I will sit down and go on hearing, and I will understand or not understand-others will disperse*-I will not disperse. That he marked. Yes. First. There was first one instance. At that time I was not initiated. There was a circumambulation of whole Vṛndāvana. So although I was not initiated, I was one of the important members of the... So I thought, "Let me go. What these people are doing, circumambulating all over Vṛndāvana?" So I went to Mathurā. Then I went to the Vṛndāvana interior, which place was known as Kosi. So in that Koṣi one of my godbrothers declared that "Prabhupāda is going tomorrow back to Mathurā. So he will speak this evening. So anyone who wants to hear him, they can stay. And others may prepare to..." Sit down. Pradyumna: Two people just came. Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. Pradyumna: Can the boys downstairs bring them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were to go to see some other temple which is called Śeṣayī Temple. So although I was new man, I did not like to go to see the Śeṣayī Temple. I decided that "I shall hear." So at that time I was new, so all other, some of my important godbrothers, they were sitting like this, and I was sitting. At last, you see. But he knew that "This boy is new." Everyone has gone, all others except a few selected godbrothers. So he marked it that "This boy is interested to hear me." So hearing is very important. Hearing. Just like Arjuna heard from Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (People entering) [Break] ...because I was serious for hearing, and therefore now I am serious about kīrtanaṁ, means speaking, or preaching. Do you follow what I say? Yes. So one who is serious about hearing, he can become a future nice preacher. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ. Next stage is developed. That is development. If one has actually heard nicely, then he will speak nicely. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ. Then consciousness will automatically develop because when you speak or you hear, unless your mind is concentrated, your consciousness is right, you cannot rightly hear or speak. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam. And then the development, "How I shall serve Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is so loving. Kṛṣṇa is so great," that automatically comes. Not silent, but activity. Pāda-sevanam means that activity begins immediately. In this way last item is sarvātma-snapanaṁ. Sarvātma, ātma-samarpaṇam, sarvātma-samarpaṇam. Bali Mahārāja just like. Giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. Then, when Vamanadeva asked, "Now, Bali Mahārāja, you have lost everything. Still I have got another leg, another foot, to place." "Yes. There is one thing. It is my head. Come on." So everything is there, and Lord Vamanadeva: "Yes. You have now purchased Me. You have now purchased Me. So I shall remain your doorman here, standing always to give you protection." So Kṛṣṇa became purchased by him, and He remained his doorman. Just see His mercy. Dvārā. Dvārī. Dvāri means doorman. So by serving Kṛṣṇa, nobody is loser; *he is gainer. He is gainer permanently, eternally. We do not know what is the value of that gain now. Because we are materially covered, we think service means just like service in this world. This service is māyā. Nobody will be satisfied, nobody. You cannot satisfy, neither you will be satisfied. The best example is in your country, that your president, Mr. Kennedy, he gave you the best service, and the result was that you killed him. You or some of your member killed him. That means his service was not appreciated, although he gave his best service. So similarly, in the material world, whatever service you render, that is spoiling time. But you render service to Kṛṣṇa*-you will be satisfied, Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, and as Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, everyone will be satisfied. So take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness service by hearing, by speaking, by remembering, by giving actually service, by worshiping, by making friendship, and after all, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Now these new boys have come. Let them question and I shall answer. That will be nice. You have heard something about Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So wherefrom these men ...? (indistinct) Pradyumna: Bhurijana sent them. Bhurijana sent money for tickets to go to Columbus. Prabhupāda: He has sent the tickets? Pradyumna: Money. *Prabhupāda: Hm. So engage all yourselves in the service of Kṛṣṇa. It is very pleasing, and what is called encouraging, enlivening. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is frustration. That stage is coming to your country. Therefore the boys are becoming hippies. After too much material enjoyment, the next stage is*-that is natural-frustration. There is a good example in our country, one Mr. C.R. Das. He was a great leader, next to Gandhi, important political leader. So he was on the topmost of... He was lawyer, barrister. He was earning fifty thousand dollars monthly, very rich man. And he was making charity, and he was spending like thing (anything). He was drunkard number one, woman-hunter number one, and everything. Because he had money he could enjoy everything. But he was not happy. So one day he was sitting with his wife. Just like in the street, he was looking over. So his wife asked him-his name was Chittaranjan-"Chittaranjan, you are earning so much. You are spending. People are very much fond of you. You are a great leader. Why you always remain morose? What do you want to be? You have got now everything." So at that time one mendicant, a sannyāsī was passing. So Chittaranjan said, "I want to be like him. Then I will be happy. I don't want to enjoy. I want to beggar, to be beggar-like." You see? So that time is coming to your country. So these hippies, they are frustrating. They have given up everything. We can study their psychic movement. They are not satisfied. That is the main principle. That is natural, to accept adversity voluntarily, adversity. So this is frustration. But before reaching to that point of frustration, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you reach the real standard of happiness because everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. I shall give you another example. Suppose you have stolen something from somebody's house or some friends. You will not be happy, even possessing that thing, stolen property. But if someday you come to return that thing to that friend, you will be happy. What do you think, Hayagrīva? Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will feel relieved. So therefore the real thing is that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are artificially enjoying the stolen property. Therefore if you go on enjoying like that, then this frustration will come. But before coming to that frustration, if we return this property to Kṛṣṇa, then we become happy. So best thing is to return everything to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you will not be a loser. You will be gainer, just like Bali Mahārāja. Actually, if you think, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Nothing belongs to you. This is māyā. Kṛṣṇa's property you are thinking, "mine." Is this land of American belongs to you actually? It is stolen property. You have stolen from the Red Indians or from Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is, not you, everyone. Somebody is claiming, "This much my property," somebody is claiming, "This much my property," but this much or that much, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. It is stolen property. There is another example in Indian words, that hira cauri kiya abhicaurya, khira caurī kiyā abhicaura. Hira means diamond, and khīra means... What is that called? Cucumber, a small? So if somebody has stolen a cucumber from other's tree, so he is captured. And another man has stolen some diamond. He is also arrested. So from the police, both are thieves. If the man says, "Oh, what I have stolen? I have stolen a little cucumber. It is nothing, worth not even two cent or one cent. Why you are arresting me? He is thief. He has stolen a big diamond," no, in the eyes of law, he is also thief; *he is also thief. Everyone is thief. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is thief. He'll not be happy. The best thing is to return whatever he has possessed: "Kṛṣṇa, it is Yours. Take." Finish business. Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song... Now, everything we possess in mind. Actually we don't possess. Suppose I am possessing all this. As soon as I go from this body, all possession will remain here. I'll not take anything. So I don't possess. But in mind I am thinking, "Oh, this is mine. This is mine. Where is another box? Why it is not coming?" And possessing in mind. If I leave this body, either the box here or in the Chicago or anywhere else, what is the difference? There is no difference. But because I am possessing in the mind, "Oh, that box is mine," so I am asking, "Whether it is Chicago or it is here, it is there? Why it is not coming?" So possession in the mind. Actually you don't possess. Mānasa deha geha. So by that supposingly possessing, we have got our mind, we have got our body, then expansion of body, wife, children, family, society, country. In this way we possess so many things. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora: "Now whatever I possess, either in the mind or in the family or in the society or in the body*-whatever I have got, I surrender unto You, my dear Kṛṣṇa." Mānasa deha geha, yo kichu..., arpilun tuā pade nanda kiśora: "Nanda-kiśora, O the son of Nanda, I give unto You." Marobi rakhobi, yo icchā tohāra: "Now whatever You like, You can do, either you kill me or You protect me, as You like. You are the proprietor. You have right to do everything." This is surrender. This is full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible immediately. Therefore we have to practice. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. And if we die in that Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram... In the particular type of consciousness, when one gives up this body, then he is transferred into that position next life. So in this way, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if we are able, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ, by practicing always, constantly, that situation of consciousness, then next life, after giving up... Why next life? This life also. One person who is in always Kṛṣṇa's service this life or that life, he is with Kṛṣṇa. He is with Kṛṣṇa. Any person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. I may not understand, but Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. So you American boys and girls, you should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You'll be happy. Your position is to take up because you are on the top of the material happiness. Now you take it. You be saved. Otherwise this frustration is coming. That will come. Just like C.R. Das. He, out of that frustration, he gave up everything. He sacrificed his life for political. And what is the value of that sacrifice? You may become a great man of your country in the estimation of your people, but not in the estimation of Kṛṣṇa. You may become a great man in the estimation of your country, but in others' estimation, your enemy, "Oh, this man is dead. Now our enemy is finished. That's nice." So another side there is imperfection. Not everybody is satisfied by your service. But if you serve Kṛṣṇa, everybody is satisfied. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance, nobody will be dissatisfied. At least they will say, "Ah..." Just like in the paper, "The boys are very nice." You see? You have seen. Instead of not very sympathetic, they have remarked this, "Oh, these boys are very nice." At least, people will appreciate, "Oh, these boys are... These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice. They do not smoke. They do not drink. They have no illicit sex life. They do not kill for satisfy the tongue. They are satisfied with natural food. And their behavior is very good." Who will deny it? And the other asset they cannot estimate, that how much he is in contact with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. That, they have no estimating power, but at least they will appreciate these external features. One clergyman, when I was going to Hawaii, he was talking with me. He said, "Swamiji, I have seen your disciples have a very nice face, glowing face." And "Yes, certainly. They must be. They are making spiritual progress." So it is not difficult. It is very easy. If you take to this, you have everything sublime and your life becomes sublime. You haven't got to give up anything. The material needs are there, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is not disallowed, but adjusted for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot allow eating, mating, like animals, cats and dogs. No. That is not possible. You'll eat, you'll mate, but just like human being, civilized man. Then what is the distinction between animal and man if we behave like animals? Kṛṣṇa, God, is pure. So if you keep yourself in impure condition of life, then how you can make progress towards purity, highest perfection, purity? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. In the Tenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa that "You are the purest of all." If you are going to reach the purest of all, how you can remain impure? This tapasya... This voluntary restraint means tapasya. Tapasya, there is a Sanskrit word, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily restraining or accepting some suffering condition. That is not actually suffering condition. Just like a patient. A doctor says, "You cannot take it." So he has the desire to take it, but doctor says that "you cannot take it." Therefore he mentally thinks that "Doctor has restricted this. I am suffering." Actually he is curing, but he thinks that "I am suffering." And when he's cured, he sees, "Oh, doctor is good friend. He told me not to indulge in this. Now I have done it. I am now cured." So tapasya means voluntarily one has to accept some so-called suffering. That is required to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, voluntarily acceptance, some so-called suffering. Tapaḥ divyam. That suffering is for transcendental realization. That is good. Tapo divyaṁ yena sattvaṁ śuddhyet [SB 5.5.1]. Śuddhyet means your existence will be purified. And existence purified means you advance to real Guest (1): Would you say something about Christ and his relation to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Christ? Jesus Christ? Prabhupāda: Christ is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. You become like Christ, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Don't you understand Christ, that he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious? You don't understand it? Then you become like Christ, fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Madhumaṅgala: What does Madhumaṅgala mean? Prabhupāda: That is not very good question. Madhumaṅgala: (indistinct)...told me to ask. Prabhupāda: Madhumaṅgala, you have explained when I initiated. Madhumaṅgala was one of the friend of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest (2): What was Arjuna's relation to Kṛṣṇa, I mean, as concise as you can put it? Prabhupāda: Hm? Kīrtanānanda: What was Arjuna's relationship to Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Friendship. That is also... There are five kinds of relationship. Just like "God is great." That is simply feeling the greatness of God. Then, when he feels exactly how God is great, then naturally there will be an inclination to serve God. That is called servitude. First neutrality estimation... That is called śānta-rasa, neutral, no activity but simply appreciating, "God is great," simply appreciation. And then servitude. When the appreciation is complete, "Oh, why not serve God? He is so great. He is giving us so many things. Let me return something. Let me do some service of Him." Servitude. That is further development of the appreciation of the greatness of God. And then further development is friendship. Friendship means... Service means I ask you, "Please give me a glass of water." You give me. And friendship means you are thinking, "How my friend will be... Now he may be wanting a glass of water." So before asking me, if you give me, "I think you may require a glass of water," that is friendship. Friendship means feeling friend's welfare always. Suhṛt. Friendship is not simply chatting. Friendship means thinking, "How my friend will be happy?" This is friendship. Then that friendship, when further developed, that is parenthood. Just like parents, they have no other consideration. They want to see, "How my child will be happy always?" And further development is conjugal love, just like man and woman, male and female, that love. That love includes everything*-that appreciation of greatness, that servitude of service, the friendship, then maternal love, and further, offering everything for the lover. That is most perfectional stage of love. So in this way we have got five kinds of direct relationship, and there are seven kinds of indirect relationship. That is not on the platform of love. That is on the platform of enmity. Just like Kaṁsa. Kaṁsa was thinking of Kṛṣṇa as enemy, so he was also Kṛṣṇa conscious. He was thinking of how to kill Kṛṣṇa. So that is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but indirectly. So there are, indirect, seven rasas: ghastly, inimical, and sometimes seeing Kṛṣṇa, one laughs, derided... In so many ways there are many indirect... Without relationship nobody can remain. The seven kinds of relationship are indirect. And five kinds of relationship is direct. So we want to be situated in the direct relationship. Kīrtanānanda: All of the conditioned souls are in an indirect relationship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Everyone is in a relationship. Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be some relation. Without relationship one cannot exist because he is part and parcel. Just like persons in the prison house. They are not out of government. There is relationship with the government, but that is indirect. The criminals, they do not appreciate the service of the government. Government is bothered about his existence. Some extra... Instead of receiving some service from him to the state, the state has got to spend unnecessarily for him. That is a botheration. So those who are in indirect relationship with Kṛṣṇa, they are botheration. They are simply giving trouble to Kṛṣṇa, but there is relationship. Hayagrīva: Is the humorous direct or indirect? One in humor? *Prabhupāda: Humor, humor is practically in every direct relationship. And indirect also, there is humor. "I am thinking of you as enemy"*-that is also another type of humor. (Chuckles) Yes. Pradyumna: Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva souls also when they are... *Prabhupāda: Everything for jīva souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly. Jīva soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God," "There is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship. Anyone, so*-called spiritualist or transcendentalist, if he is claiming that "There is no God," "I am God," "There is voidness," these are all disturbing positions, different symptoms of this disease of māyā. It is disease. How one can think of, that he is God? That means he does not know what is God. If I say here that "I am President Nixon," would you accept it? Would you accept? Any one of you, if I say that "I am President Nixon," will you accept? Why? Why? Why? Why you do not accept me? I say, "I am President Nixon." Why do you not accept? Why? Woman: I would say you are if you say you are. Kīrtanānanda: You don't have the characteristics. Prabhupāda: No. That means you are not rascal. You are sane, that you do not accept me as President... That is one thing. At least you are not insane. So if I say, "God," and you accept, then how much insane you are. Just try to understand. How much insanity is there, one who is claiming that "I am God" and one who is accepting that he is God. This is insanity. Woman: Are we not all one? Prabhupāda: One is... That is different thing. You are not one with President Nixon? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then are you President Nixon? Woman: He's a human being. He's part of me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. He is American. He is human being. In so many qualities you are one. But you cannot claim for that, you are President Nixon. You should understand in that way. In so many respect, qualities, you are one with God, but that does not mean you are God. God is one. That means you have no complete understanding. Just like in spite of your becoming American or human being, you deny to identify yourself with President Nixon because you have full knowledge of President Nixon and yourself. And as soon as you say, "I am God," that means you have no full knowledge of God. You are insane. You do not know what is God. That very thing immediately asserts that you are unknown factor about God. God is said, "Great," but you are claiming that greatness. That means you do not know how great He is. A tiny factor, you are claiming that "I am God," without having that greatness. That means insane, insanity. The same way: if you claim that "I am President Nixon," that is insanity. Similarly, God is, how great He is, how much greater than President Nixon. You deny to become one with President Nixon, and you accept to be one with God? How much insane you are. Just try to understand. Yes? Child: How many arms does Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva have? Prabhupāda: That you shall know later on. Not now. *Janārdana: I've read in Bhagavad*-gītā that he who knows the self does not do action nor causes action to be done. So what is the soul's, the spirit soul's, relationship to actions performed both in material consciousness and in spiritual, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Material consciousness means forgetting God. When one forgets God, that is material consciousness. Material consciousness is called māyā. Actually one should not forget. But if he forgets somehow or other, that is material consciousness. Naturally nobody forgets his father and mother. But if, somehow or other, he forgets, that is a special circumstances and that is called māyā, illusion. Just like any one of you who are existing, you must have a father and mother. That is a fact. Without father and mother, your existence cannot be. Now, if you cannot say who is your father and mother, if you do not know, this forgetfulness, this is called māyā. Actually it should not happen, but somehow or other, if you are asked, "Who is your parents?" You cannot say. This is called māyā. But there must be some father and mother. Without father and mother, there cannot be an existence. You cannot deny that. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no father and mother." That is not possible. You may not know who is your father, mother. That is a different thing. But you cannot say, "Oh, I have no father, mother." So this denial, that "I don't believe in God," is a existence like that, one who has forgotten his father and mother. That is māyā, and that is material consciousness. Denying God in different way, "There is no God," that is also denial. "I don't believe in God"-that is also denial. "God is impersonal, void," anyway, whatever you say in that way, that is all insanity, māyā. Maya means insanity. Another meaning of māyā means insanity. Just like when a man becomes insane, that is false. It is expected that he should not be insane. By treatment he is brought again to his original consciousness. Similarly, māyā means insanity, forgetfulness of God. And by Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment he comes to the original consciousness. He becomes a cured man. Actually māyā means which has no existence. Māyā has no existence. But sometimes it is there. Just like the sky's cover. This covering is not reality. The reality is this sky, clear sky, but somehow it is now covered. You cannot see the clear sky. So there is temporary, temporary illusion. Now, if I see the cloud only and if I say, "Oh, there is no sun. There is no illumination," or "There is no clear sky," that is insanity. Because I cannot see-under certain circumstances, I deny it-that is my insanity. Therefore you have to approach to a man who knows that there is sunlight, there is sun, there is clear sky... If you go there... You require all this education, knowledge. By knowledge one transcends māyā, or material existence. What is the difference between ordinary man and Kṛṣṇa conscious man? They are also living in this world, in this apartment. Everything is being utilized like others. We are also eating, sleeping also. But what is the difference? Our difference*-that we accept that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa; others do not. That's all. That is māyā. Everything actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. He does not know. He thinks, "It belongs to me," or "This, my nation, this, my country, this, that," so many things. He is manufacturing. And we know the simple truth, that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So let everything be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yes. Kīrtanānanda: So we understand that in the material consciousness the living entity is being forced to act. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: His actions are quite automatic under the laws of material nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, action is there. Because you are living entity, you are active. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but they are being dictated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a man in fever talking nonsense. So that is due to fever. Kīrtanānanda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are the actions of the jīva similarly controlled by Kṛṣṇa's superior energy? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Kīrtanānanda: But everything is being controlled ultimately by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Either by inferior energy or superior energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kīrtanānanda: So his activities are never independent, either in Kṛṣṇa or... Prabhupāda: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence? So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by māyā always, and we are thinking, "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. And some intoxication, a voluntarily accept dependence of something māyā. That's all. Who is independent. Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is māyā. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent. That is material consciousness. Falsely. He is not independent, but he is thinking falsely, "I am independent." This is māyā. Just like in dream he is falsely thinking there is a tiger. There is no tiger, but he is actuated by this false impression, "Oh, tiger is eating me. It has attacked me. Save me." So this material existence means because he is insane, he is thinking there are so many problems, "The tiger is there. He is attacking me. This, that, so many enemies, friends...," creating so many things. But they are all false. But he is attacked by that false hallucination. That's all. This is māyā. Everyone is thinking, "Oh, there are so many problems I have to solve. I have to make this, that, this, so many." But he has no problem. He has no problem. His only problem is how to accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He says, "Yes, you accept Me. Simply chant Kṛṣṇa. I am yours. That's all." But my, I am so misfortunate that I cannot chant even. All problems solved simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches that "O Kṛṣṇa, You are so kind that You have come to Me in the sound vibration, word, 'Kṛṣṇa.' I can very easily chant, and You remain with Me. But I am so misfortunate that I have no attraction even for this." You say people, "You chant Kṛṣṇa; *you get everything." They will not believe it. If you say, "You press your nose. You pay me fifty dollars. I'll give you some nice mantra and this, that. You make your head like this, leg like this," "Oh," he'll say, "here is something." Something. "And this Swamiji says, 'Simply chant Kṛṣṇa.' Oh, what is this?" Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi durdaiva: "But I am so unfortunate that You have become so easily available in this age, but I am so unfortunate, I cannot accept it." So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness so easily being distributed, but they are so unfortunate, they cannot accept. Just see. And you give them bluff, you cheat them*-they will, "Ah, yes, welcome. Yes." They'll welcome it. And cheaters are always ready: "Oh, there are so many customers for being cheated. Let me take advantage of it." So my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "This world is the society of cheaters and cheated." The members are somebody are cheating, and somebody are cheated. The association of cheaters and cheated. So we want to save them from this society of cheaters and cheated. Janārdana: Prabhupāda, often when we'll be performing, doing some activity during our day, and so many things will go wrong, and we become frustrated... *Prabhupāda: Well, when one is a professional, there may be something wrong. That doesn't matter. But you try to discharge your duties, rightly, whatever you are prescribed to do. Then everything will come to the right point. Your only business is to follow the four principles of regulative life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa sixteen rounds. So there may be sometimes mistake. That will be corrected automatically. Because we are coming from a different platform, so it may be. And that is also said in the Bha... Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ: [Bg. 9.30] "If one is found doing mistake or doing something wrong, but because he is sticking to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is sādhu." Sādhu means a holy man. He is holy. He is not doing any wrong consciously. But due to habit... Suppose just like most of you were, in your former life, you were smoking or taking intoxication. But by some influence, if you sometimes take to it, yes, if you are conscious, "Oh, I have done wrong," but that is excused if you have done unconscious. But if you think that "Now I am Kṛṣṇa conscious. Whatever I do, it is right," then it is great sin. But accidentally it happens*-that is excused. Never mind. So accidental mistake is not dangerous. Willful mistake is dangerous. That we should be careful. We should be very careful always so that accidental mistakes also may not take place. But if it takes place, it is excused. *Devotee: Can haṭha*-yoga hinder or help Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or is it...? *Prabhupāda: Hinder. Yes. Because it is useless, simply wasting time. You cannot perform haṭha*-yoga in this age. You do not follow the rules and regulations. You are simply bluffed. Do you know what is the rules and regulations of haṭha-yoga factually? Devotee: Not actually. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to select a secluded place. Haṭha*-yoga is not practiced in assembly of so many men. Just you go to a haṭha-yoga class. There are hundreds of members practicing, and he is collecting money, five dollars per seat. And you are thinking, "I am practicing." That is useless waste of time and money. Haṭha-yoga is not practiced in that way. You have to practice in a secluded place, alone. Do you do that? Devotee: Yes. Not... No. I guess I don't. *Prabhupāda: It is very difficult in this age. Then you have to restrain yourself in so many things. Complete free from sex life. You have to eat under certain direction, you have to... So many things there are. These rules are not followed. Simply they have got some bodily gymnastic sitting posture. They are thinking, "I am practicing." No. That is one of the items. So all the items cannot be observed in this age. Therefore it is wasting. [Break] "...yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." This is the goal of yoga practice. So that is possible very easily by this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not by any other process. And the ultimate goal is here. One should be always abiding with God, worshiping Him, transcendental loving service, and intimately united with Him, intimately. This intimate unity means that five kinds of relationship. That is the perfection of yoga. When Kṛṣṇa has advised yoga practice, sāṅkhya*-yoga... You have Bhagavad-gītā? There is sāṅkhya-yoga. You'll find in the forty-seventh verse. This is the version. Devotee: There's no value in keeping the body fit through exercise? Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become very healthy. But does it mean that health is the perfection of life? Do you mean to say healthy life will not die, will not change his body? So health is required, but health is not the ultimate goal of life. Ultimate goal of life is here. Guest (3): Buddha taught very similar things to what the *Gītā* taught also, didn't he? Are there agreeances there, agreement in certain places what Buddha taught and what the *Gītā* teaches? Prabhupāda: Do you follow this Buddha? Guest (3): Uh, no. Prabhupāda: You simply talk of him? You practice Buddha if you appreciate him. You give up everything like Buddha and meditate. But that you will not do. Then what is the talking of, useless talking about this? Do something. Either you believe Buddha or Jesus Christ or Kṛṣṇa. Do something. Don't talk simply. Lord Buddha is very nice. He gave up his kingdom in youthful life. He was prince. He thought, "It is all nonsense. Let me meditate." Do like that. That is the disease. We won't do anything. We talk much of this, that, this, that. Do anything, but do it perfectly. "Jack of all trade, master of none." That is not good. Be master of something. It doesn't differ. Either you follow Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter much. But do it perfectly. That is our request. (end) Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio Allen Ginsberg: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: So, we will sing tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Allen Ginsberg: Is this your first visit here? Prabhupāda: The first visit, yes. Allen Ginsberg: You have the whole house. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are doing very nice. (indistinct) We have some meeting in the university, kīrtana. Our..., wherever we go kīrtana and speaking. You have seen our book, Lord Caitanya's Teaching? Allen Ginsberg: No. I haven't seen that. That's new. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: Is that...? Er, ISKCON published. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: So, you did... You..., printed where? Prabhupāda: Japan. Allen Ginsberg: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Japan. Allen Ginsberg: Printed in Japan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: Beautiful. It's very industrious. It's marvelous. Prabhupāda: Next book is coming, *Nectar of Devotion*. Allen Ginsberg: What will that be, your own writings? *Prabhupāda: No, it is the authorized translation of Rūpa Gosvāmī's book, Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Allen Ginsberg: Whose...? Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī, Lord Caitanya's principal disciple. Allen Ginsberg: Uhuh. Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī. There are six Gosvāmīs, direct disciples of Lord Caitanya. Er, not, six Gosvāmīs and three other confidential. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, our... About the six Gosvāmīs, Rūpa Gosvāmī is the principal. Allen Ginsberg: Rūpa Gos... *Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was finance minister in the government of Nawab Hussain Shah in Bengal. But when Lord Caitanya started His movement, he was captivated and he resigned his service, government service and joined Him. And he wrote immense literature, Gosvāmīs. And that Desai was talking that Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he says, rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti kabe hāma bujhaba se yugala-pīriti: conjugal love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, one can understand when they go through the literatures presented by these Gosvāmīs. So his first book is Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Devotion of, Nectar of Devotion. That is very authorized book. Quotation from various Vedic literature about Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and the different stages of relationship with Kṛṣṇa, śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, admiration. God is Great. This is also one stage, appreciating the greatness of God. Then further development, dāsya-rasa, willing to serve. Oh! God is so great, and I must serve service because everyone of us are serving somebody. So why not serve the Supreme? Nobody is free from service because we are constitutionally the servant. Either we become the servant of the Great or māyā. Just like in any condition of our lives, we have to abide by the laws of the state. If he says that we don't abide then come to prisonhouse. You will be forced. Similarly, māyā and Kṛṣṇa. If we don't abide by Kṛṣṇa, then come to māyā. He cannot be free. That is not our position. Freedom is frustration. Allen Ginsberg: Do you remember a man named Richard Alpert? Prabhupāda: Huh? Allen Ginsberg: Do you remember of a man named Richard Alpert? He used to work with Timothy Leary. Prabhupāda: Ah. Allen Ginsberg: In Harvard many years ago. And then he went to India and found a teacher, and is now a disciple of Hanumānji or a devotee of Hanumān. And he said that, we were talking about māyā and the present condition of America... Prabhupāda: Have some fruits? Allen Ginsberg: In a while. Well, we can talk as... Prabhupāda: Accha. Allen Ginsberg: Bite your food. I have that question I wanted to asked. Are you tired? Prabhupāda: No, no. I can talk with you whole night. (laughter) *Allen Ginsberg: So he said that his teacher in India told him that LSD was a Christ of the Kali*-yuga for Westerners. Prabhupāda: Christ? *Allen Ginsberg: of the Kali*-yuga for Westerners in that, as the Kali-yuga got more intense, as attachment got thicker and thicker, that also salvation would have to be easier and easier, and that... Prabhupāda: (aside:) (Bengali) Allen Ginsberg: Namaste. (to Indian lady) Prabhupāda: She is a Bengali lady recently come from London. Allen Ginsberg: Ahh! Prabhupāda: Lekha. (Bengali) Indian Lady: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Allen Ginsberg: So, as the Kali*-yuga became more intense and as attachment became deeper and more confusing... Prabhupāda: Attachment for? *Allen Ginsberg: ...that salvation would also have to become easier and easier in the Kali*-yuga. *Prabhupāda: That is very nice statement that in the Kali*-yuga salvation is very easier. That is the version of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, but that process is this kīrtana, not LSD. Allen Ginsberg: Well, it was... The reasoning there, was that for those who would only accept salvation in purely material form, in chemical form finally, and completely material form... Prabhupāda: Hmm. So where is the salvation when there is... Allen Ginsberg: ...that Kṛṣṇa had the humor to emerge as a pill. Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that any of these material forms... Allen Ginsberg: Yes? Prabhupāda: ...then where it is salvation? It is illusion. Allen Ginsberg: Well the subjective effect is to cut... Prabhupāda: No. Allen Ginsberg: ...attachment during the... *Prabhupāda: Well, if you have got attachments for something material, then where is the cut*-off attachment. LSD is a material chemical. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So if you have to take shelter of LSD then you take, I mean to say, help from the matters, so that is... How you can... How you are free from matter? Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective experience is, while in the state of intoxication of LSD, also realizing that LSD is a material pill, and that it does not really matter. Prabhupāda: So that is risky. That is risky. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Now so, if LSD is a material attachment, which it is I think, then is not the sound, śabda, also a material attachment? Prabhupāda: No, śabda is spiritual. Originally just like in Bible there is, "Let there be creation." This sound, this spiritual sound. Creation. Creation was not there. The sound produced the creation. Therefore, sound is originally spiritual and through the sound; *sound*-from sound, sky develops; from sky, air develop; from air, fire develop; fire, water develop; from water, land develop. Allen Ginsberg: Sound is the first element of creation? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Allen Ginsberg: What was the first sound, traditionally? *Prabhupāda: Vedic states, Oṁ. So at least we can understand from your Bible, that God said, "Let there be creation." So this is sound, and there is creation. God and His sound is non*-different, absolute. I say, "Mr. Ginsberg," this sound and I, a little difference, but God is non-different from His energy, nitya... How it is called? Śakti śaktimator abhedhaḥ. Śakti, energy and śakti-mat, the energetic. They are non-different. Just like fire and heat, they are non-different, but heat is not fire. You can not differentiate heat from fire, or fire from heat. But fire is not heat. Allen Ginsberg: Well the sounds, the sound kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: Yes, is non*-different from Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: ...is not different from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore, this sound kṛṣṇa... Allen Ginsberg: Under all circumstances? *Prabhupāda: Yes, all, all circumstances, but it is the question of my appreciation, or my realization. That will depend on my purity. Otherwise this Kṛṣṇa sound and Kṛṣṇa, non*-different. Therefore if we vibrate sound Kṛṣṇa, then I am immediately in contact with Kṛṣṇa, and if Kṛṣṇa is whole spirit, then immediately I become spiritualized. Just like if you touch electricity, immediately you're electrified. And the more you become electrified, more you become Kṛṣṇized. Kṛṣṇized. So when you are fully Kṛṣṇized, then you are in the Kṛṣṇa platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9], then fully Kṛṣṇized, no more comes back to this material existence. He remains with Kṛṣṇa. The impersonalists shall say merging. That is less intelligence. Merging does not mean losing individuality. Just like a green bird enters a green tree; it appears merging, but the bird has not lost his individuality. There is individuality. Similarly Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter, no, Second Chapter that I, you, adyam(?), I and all these people who have assembled; *it is not that they did not exist previously neither it is that they'll not exist. That means I, you, and all these persons, they were individual in the past. At the present we see it practically, and in future they'll remain individuals. And individually we are that, in our present existence, everyone of us individual. You have got your individual views, I have got my individual views. We agree on common platform, that is different thing, but we are individual. That is our nature. Therefore there is disagreement sometimes. So the individuality is never lost. But our proposition, bhakti*-mārga, is to keep individuality and agree with you. Allen Ginsberg: To keep...? Prabhupāda: And agree with you. Our surrender means we agree with Kṛṣṇa in everything, although we are individual. If Kṛṣṇa says you have to die, we die; *out of love. But we are individual, I can deny "Why shall I die?" That reality I have got. Just like Arjuna was asked, "Now I have taught you Bhagavad*-gītā, now whatever you like you do," yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63], "as you like." He doesn't touch the individuality. But Arjuna voluntarily surrendered: "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73], "yes, I shall do whatever You ask." He changed his decision. He decided not to fight, but he agreed, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This agreement, this is oneness. Not oneness does not mean mix up homogeneously. No, He keeps his individuality. Kṛṣṇa keeps his individuality, yathecchasi tathā kuru: "Now whatever you like you do." He says, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73], "I shall do what you say." So this is oneness. Not to lose individuality. Because we cannot lose our individuality. We are individually made originally. Kṛṣṇa is individual, we are individual, everyone is individual. Merging means merging in that total agreement. That is liberation. Total agreement without any disagreement. And that is the perfection: to keep individuality and agree with God in total agreement. That is perfection. And imperfection so long we are in rebelled condition that is material because one who has a slightest desire of disagreement with Kṛṣṇa, he cannot live there. There the only predominant figure is Kṛṣṇa. So one who is trained fully to agree with Kṛṣṇa, they are accepted as associates. Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ pradadyate: [Bg. 7.19] after many, many births of cultivating knowledge in spiritual life, a fully conversant, wise person surrenders unto Me. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante: after many, many births. How he surrenders? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] oh! Kṛṣṇa is everything. The Vedānta-sūtra gives hint, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], what is Brahmā, what is supreme? Athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahmān, the Supreme. The answer is Brahman is that or He who is the original source of everything. We have to find out who is the original source, so that requires wisdom. So when one is perfectly wise after many, many births, cultured, he sees, "Ah, here is the original, Kṛṣṇa," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19], that mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen, who has surrendered. So our... We are giving the shortcut process: what one has to attain after many, many births, we are simply saying is surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all. This is the greatest boon or, what is called, greatest reward or contribution to the human society. And if actually one is wise, then he'll take our word that if one has to come to this point after many, many births, that Kṛṣṇa is everything, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], to understand, why not accept it immediately? Allen Ginsberg: Do you take rebirth in human form literally? Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: As a... Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Allen Ginsberg: I just don't remember having been born before. Prabhupāda: You don't remember your childhood that does not mean you had no childhood. Do you remember when you were so small boy, what did you did? Allen Ginsberg: Certain things. Not very small, but there. Prabhupāda: Or when you were in your womb of your mother. Do you remember? Allen Ginsberg: No. Prabhupāda: Then, does it mean that you are not. Allen Ginsberg: No, it doesn't mean that I am not. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not remember, that is not reason. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but I have really never seen or heard any, anything but what I see in here now. What I see in here is what I can remember is what I can remember. I don't, I've never heard any reasonable or, or even drawing description of previous incarnations, or previous births. Prabhupāda: You have never heard? Allen Ginsberg: Of, I've never heard anything sensible sounding about it, anything that actually makes me think, "Ah, that must be." Prabhupāda: Is it not sensible? Allen Ginsberg: Not really, no. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Why not? Allen Ginsberg: Sensible, touchable. Prabhupāda: Now, suppose, not suppose, it's a fact: your body in the mother's womb in the first day. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Of the father, mother sex life, it comes just like the pea many diverse. So from the pea you have come to this point. So body is changing. So what is the astonishment if you change this body, again become, take another pea form. What is the difficulty to understand? Allen Ginsberg: Well, the difficulty to understand would be any permanent being; to understand that there is any permanent being or any continuity of any form of consciousness from one body to another. Prabhupāda: Then you have to consult. Therefore you have to take, just like when you can not understand something, we consult some great authority. Is it not? Allen Ginsberg: Not enough to make me dream of it at night, no. Not enough to make me love it. Words are not enough. That authority is not enough to make me love it. Prabhupāda: You don't accept authority? Allen Ginsberg: Not enough to love. Prabhupāda: No, love, apart from love. Allen Ginsberg: Not enough to... Prabhupāda: Consult. Allen Ginsberg: ...going to accept authority. It's just that... Prabhupāda: Consult, consult. Allen Ginsberg: I can't even understand an authority that says that I am there when I don't feel myself there. Prabhupāda: Well, suppose when you are in some legal trouble, you go to lawyer. You cannot understand. Why do you say you cannot understand? Where you have disease where do you go to a physician. You see? Authority you accept. Allen Ginsberg: In America we've had a great deal of difficulty with authority. Prabhupāda: No that is, that is... Allen Ginsberg: No, here is a special problem. Prabhupāda: That is, that is, I mean to say, misunderstanding. Authority we have to. The child has to accept authority. Always ask mother what is this father, what is this...? Why? That is the beginning: ask, ask, ask. That is the way of acquiring knowledge. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa... The Vedic injunction is there, if you want to understand that science, you must to go to guru. Allen Ginsberg: But do you understand your previous lives from the descriptions in authoritative texts, or from any introspective recollection... Prabhupāda: No, we have to corroborate. Allen Ginsberg: ...of your own? *Prabhupāda: Corroborate. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is said that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. One who could not finish this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he gets birth in two places, either in very rich family, or in a very pure brāhmaṇa family, brahminical cultured family. So from my life I experience, when I was very little child six or seven years old, I was very much fond of Kṛṣṇa. And I got the opportunity of this two things. Although my father was not very rich, but he was pure Vaiṣṇava. He was great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: I assume Calcutta. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta, and accidentally, I was born in a very rich family. You have seen that picture in my Calcutta, dancing. In that, there is a Kashi Mallik's family. Indian Woman: (Bengali) Kashi Malliker? *Prabhupāda: They are very aristocratic family. I do, I did not belong to that family, but I was born in that family, you see? And from the very beginning the Kashi Mallik, they have got nice Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple. So I was standing before the deity, and I was seeing, "Oh, He is Kṛṣṇa. Oh, people say He is dead. How he is dead?" Like that I was thinking. And then my, I asked my father, "Oh, I shall worship Kṛṣṇa, give me." So my father gave me Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, so I, whatever I was eating, I was offering them. So the statement of the śāstra and my practical experience corroborates. So we we have to take instance like that, you see? Sādhu śāstra guru vākya. We have to test everything from three positions: the spiritual master, scripture, and holy man. Scripture means, just like Bible. What is Bible? Scripture. Why the scripture? It is fully contains the instruction of sādhu, holy man, or spiritual master, Lord Jesus Christ, therefore is scripture. The scripture means the statement of liberated holy man. That is sādhu. Therefore, scripture should be tested through the holy man and spiritual master. Spiritual master should be tested through scripture and holy man, and holy man should be tested through spiritual master and scripture. Allen Ginsberg: What is the difference between holy man and spiritual master? Prabhupāda: No difference, but one has to test whether he is holy man. Then you have to, he has to corroborate with the statement of the scripture. Spiritual master is to be tested whether he is holy man, and whether there is corroboration in the statement of the scriptures. Sādhu śāstra guru vākya tinete koriya aikya. Just like the law court, the experienced lawyer's speaking and giving evidence. Sādhu-śāstra, and the judge is giving judgement, "Here is a statement, here is this lawbook." He has (indistinct). He also testing, the judge is also testing how the lawyer is speaking, and how it is corroborates to the lawbook. So similarly everything has to be tested in that way. The scripture should be consulted, and we should have to see whether it is corroborated. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. So we should not accept any man as spiritual master or holy man if he does not corroborate with the statement of the scripture. He's at once rejected. Allen Ginsberg: How shall we sing tomorrow. Have you thought of an arrangement of the program? Prabhupāda: As you like. Allen Ginsberg: As you like. At what time are we supposed to do it? Hayagrīva: Eight. Allen Ginsberg: In the hall? Hayagrīva: Hm. Allen Ginsberg: Is there a stage? Devotee: The stage has a..., there's a seat, there's a floor, and there's gradually little steps about six, seven steps and then the stage, where the platform, so on the steps people can sit also. Allen Ginsberg: Yes, the more the merrier. So how long will we go? Did you figure? Hayagrīva: Well, when, we have the auditorium till... Allen Ginsberg: How long? Hayagrīva: At least two and a half hours. Allen Ginsberg: Okay, let's go through the whole two and a half. Hayagrīva: Good, good. Prabhupāda: So, how do you feeling about chanting? Allen Ginsberg: I have been chanting steadily all along now although I enjoy it more and more. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Allen Ginsberg: Lately, Peter and I have been chanting together on stages, and lately we have been singing Rāghupati Rāghava Rājarāma. Is that part of your canon also? Prabhupāda: No. There is no harm, but this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is recommended in the scripture. Allen Ginsberg: The Hare Kṛṣṇa is the most pleasing of the chanting as far as I am concerned. Do we want to do that continuously, for as a complete? Prabhupāda: That's nice. Allen Ginsberg: Do you want to do that continuously or do you want any other like Gopāla or... Prabhupāda: I think this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra should be chanted. Allen Ginsberg: You see, we have two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: It'll be lecturing too though. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think in the beginning we should have kīrtana. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: And at the end we should have kīrtana. And in the middle we can speak, you can speak about Kṛṣṇa Conciousness. Allen Ginsberg: I think you'd better speak because you're more eloquent on it and also you understand in the language... Prabhupāda: I'll speak and you'll also speak. Allen Ginsberg: You might not like what I say. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No you say your experience, how you're experiencing. That's all. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Okay. Prabhupāda: Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ. You have got Kṛṣṇa's blessings upon you. You are not ordinary man. Allen Ginsberg: I'm not certain that I'm worthy of that, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But I know that you are not ordinary man. Allen Ginsberg: Well... I've only recently stopped smoking, by the way, finally. With that car crash, I quit smoking. But I haven't stopped eating meat. So what is the intelligence of meat? Prabhupāda: You remain with us at least for three months and you'll forget your... You remain with us for three months. (laughter) With your associates, you just come to Vṛndāvana. We shall live together. Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now? Prabhupāda: Huh? Allen Ginsberg: You have a farm now? Prabhupāda: Yes. And you'll forget everything. You'll be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Allen Ginsberg: We have a farm also now in upstate New York. There we have vegetarian table also in the farm. We have a cow, goats. But... Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed. Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think? Prabhupāda: Four acres. Allen Ginsberg: Maybe. Prabhupāda: That I am instructing Kīrtanānanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban. Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres? Kīrtanānanda: I hope so. Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head? Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota, which is flat, very fertile, very rich land. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Which province? Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking with a poet who also is a fellow sādhana, whose family is from that area for many generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself has 160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently 160 acres is not enough to support a farm economically because farming is done now in such large scale with machines. *Kīrtanānanda: You can use those machines if you want. If you want to live in the so*-called American style, that is so. But if you're willing to adopt the Vedic way of minimizing the material needs in order to pursue Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what does one need? He needs sufficient food to keep the body healthy and a place to lay down. So four acres is plenty. Allen Ginsberg: Where do you get the... How do you feed the cow, or would you? Kīrtanānanda: On four acres you can do it. Allen Ginsberg: You can get enough hay for a cow, for...? Prabhupāda: Fodder. Yes. We grow. Guest: On food, it depends on what part of the east? Allen Ginsberg: He's a farmer. Guest: Whereabouts? What part? Cause a cow has to have about three acres for grazing. Kīrtanānanda: So at most five acres. It's in that vicinity. Allen Ginsberg: See we are interested in this problem of minimizing. Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate. Allen Ginsberg: And doing organic farming and minimizing the effort and also the material demands. Kīrtanānanda: You can grow sufficient vegetables on a fraction of an acre. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. We had a big vegetable garden this year, too. I've been doing farming... Peter has been doing a great deal of farming. Hayagrīva: How are you tilling your land? Guest: We have a friend who comes out with a plow. Allen Ginsberg: You're doing it by hand? Kīrtanānanda: We just got a horse. Hayagrīva: We just got a horse. We had bad experience with a rotary tiller. We got rid of it. Kīrtanānanda: West Virginia. We gave it away. Allen Ginsberg: So we're also going through a coovy(?) āśrama for poets. A little farm for poets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming, agriculture, that is nice. There is a proverb: agriculture is the noblest profession. Is it not said? Agriculture is noblest, and Kṛṣṇa was farmer, His father. Allen Ginsberg: The cow. Prabhupāda: Cow, yes. And in Vedic literature you'll find, a man is... Richness of a man is estimated by the possession of grains and cows. Dhanyena dhanavān. If he has got sufficient quantity grain, then he's to be... Formerly, even still in India, when a daughter is offered to a family, they will go and see how many morais(?) there are. Grain stock. If he sees that he has five, six, big, big grain stock, then he can... "Oh, this is nice house." You see? "They can feed." So in India still, the arrangement is that every family has got at least two years grain in stock. You see? And cow at least one dozen. No economic problem. And actually, that is the fact. You keep cows and have sufficient grains, whole economic problem solved. Eating. And sleeping, you can take some wood and four pillars. Of course, in your country it is not... Allen Ginsberg: It's very cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. (laughing) India, all the year they are lying on the flat sky. Kīrtanānanda: But still, it is very simple. We also experimented with that. You can build a nice shelter very... for ten, fifteen dollars. Allen Ginsberg: Well, it depends. You see, where we are we're twenty below. Kīrtanānanda: Well, we have pretty near that in West Virginia. Allen Ginsberg: In Minnesota gets thirty, forty, sometimes, below. Kīrtanānanda: There has to have sufficient wood sawed up. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: Formerly, in Europe they were also living. Allen Ginsberg: Man lived this way for 20,000 years, 30,000 years until the 19th Century. *Prabhupāda: So we have to live that. Plain living, high thinking. The necessities of this bodily existence, that should be minimized and not unhealthy. Healthy. To keep oneself fit. But the time should be utilized*-develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, spiritual life. Then his whole problem is solved. Here is the big man. Allen Ginsberg: Young devotee. Kīrtanānanda: Haribol. Prabhupāda: How many rounds you chant? Child: All rounds. Prabhupāda: Only one round? Child: All round. Kīrtanānanda: All the way round. Woman: All the rounds. Prabhupāda: All the rounds? Oh, very nice. He's Mr. Dhari(?). Oh, you did not return? Indian Lady: (Bengali) Kīrtanānanda: (introducing:) Mr. Ginsberg. Allen Ginsberg: I'm saluting you like that. So... Indian Lady: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. Indian Lady: He's so good, because he was so good last time. Prabhupāda: Children very easily adopt it. So this is the perfect yoga system. No artificial education. Spontaneous response, dancing, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is the easiest method. So the greatest contribution to the human society. Do it. Allen Ginsberg: Well, so tomorrow we'll be doing it. So now, the next question I had in my mind is we'll be doing kīrtana, then language, speech. Then end with kīrtana. *Prabhupāda: That is also kīrtana. Kīrtana means kīrtayati. Glorifying. That is kīrtana. So either you sing musically or you speak devotionally, both of them are kīrtana. Just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he continually spoke to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is also state, śrī viṣṇu... śravaṇe parīkṣit, abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Vaiyasaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Sukadeva Gosvāmī, he became liberated simply by kīrtane. But what is that kīrtana? He never played musical way. He simply explained Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So this is also kīrtana. This is called saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayati. That is saṅkīrtana. Allen Ginsberg: The chanting is saṅkīrtana. Prabhupāda: Chanting, yes. Saṅkīrtana. Allen Ginsberg: Well, if we have two and one half hours... Hayagrīva: We have as long as we... Allen Ginsberg: How long a saṅkīrtana to begin with, do you think? Hayagrīva: The first one would last, what thirty minutes? Forty minutes? Thirty, forty minutes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Forty, forty*-five. At least, half an hour beginning. Allen Ginsberg: Okay. At least half an hour. Prabhupāda: Last also, half an hour. One hour. And? You have got time? Two hours? Hayagrīva: Oh, as long as you want. Nobody's going to be using that auditorium. Prabhupāda: Then make it one hour speaking and one hour kīrtana. Or one half hour kīrtana, one hour speaking. Allen Ginsberg: At least an hour of kīrtana, yes. Hayagrīva: I don't know how long we will keep a big audience there. That is to say, after the first hour they might start milling out. But if we keep half an audience, that would be nice. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, well, half will stay. Then the other thing is what tune to use in the kīrtanas? I use several tunes. Prabhupāda: That as you like. Allen Ginsberg: I would like to begin with the one I've been using. Is that all right? Or do you want to end with that? Or whatever we want. Hayagrīva: How can we get the people to join in? That's a big thing. We'd like to have the audience to join us. Allen Ginsberg: It's an audience seated out there, huh? Let me see. How many devotees will be there? Hayagrīva: Onstage? Kīrtanānanda: Everyone here. More from Buffalo. Allen Ginsberg: What I think might be a good idea is, would it be possible to have the devotees start on the stage, and then if it looks like the audience is not singing vivaciously enough, have the devotees go out and sing... Walk up and down singing? Prabhupāda: When the audience joins, that will be very nice. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Do you have a picture of the words written out for the audience? 'Cause if they've got that... Hayagrīva: Yes, we have that. Allen Ginsberg: The question I'm asking basically is, one question I'm asking is, would it be all right to use the tune I've been using at one point or another? Hayagrīva: Well, tomorrow night, if we can practice together, we can play together some... Pradyumna: We have four drums, cymbals, and a taṁburā. Hayagrīva: We can use yours and we can use ours. When we chant, it's easier for a large group to follow. It's very simple. First, we sing a couple of melodies. Then we can practice in a little while and see which one is (indistinct). Allen Ginsberg: Okay. Hayagrīva: I think once they get into the chanting, your melody might be a little difficult for them to follow. I'm not sure. Because it varies. There's variation there. Allen Ginsberg: The problem, though, is that I've never been able to swing with it before. That's why I haven't used it. So what I would suggest is... Okay. We'll practice it tomorrow. Hayagrīva: We can swing, I'm sure we can swing something. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. But whatever we do, we got to swing. Hayagrīva: That's for sure. But there've been... See what you think of various melodies. We play various melodies and see how we can come out. Another thing, do you want to have responsive chanting? Prabhupāda: Responsive chanting must be there. Allen Ginsberg: That would be interesting, yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise everyone will become tired and that will be chaotic. Response. That's nice. Then the audience will respond. Allen Ginsberg: We got into some responsive chanting last time. Kīrtanānanda: Why don't you lead? Prabhupāda: Huh? I can lead. Allen Ginsberg: That's a good idea. Prabhupāda: I can lead. Allen Ginsberg: That's a groovy idea. Hayagrīva: I think what we'll do is you lead the first chant, and then... Prabhupāda: Others will respond. Hayagrīva: And then Mr. Ginsberg can talk a little of his experiences, and then you talk. And then Mr. Ginsberg lead the second. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotee: Because Prabhupāda will be speaking for an hour, maybe Hayagrīva you can lead the first chant. You have a very nice voice too. Because he'll be speaking for an hour. Prabhupāda: If there is time he will also speak. Hayagrīva: Well, if he can lead the first I think that would be... The students would be... Allen Ginsberg: Yes. If he leads the first, will they be able to have responsive chanting too? Do you want responsive chanting when you lead? Hayagrīva: Oh yes. You'll lead, then we'll respond. Prabhupāda: If every one of our devotee will respond, naturally the audience also will respond. Hayagrīva: We'll have a microphone to make it easier for the audience. Prabhupāda: Then you also one of us. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nice microphone? Hayagrīva: There will be one, two, three, four, five microphones on stage. And I have one for around your neck, one for around your neck, and if you don't like that, there are stands. But the stands can be down here, can be up here. Allen Ginsberg: Can Peter get near one too? Can Peter get near a microphone? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: Okay. Well, that's a very good program then. What instrument, stage instruments, do you have? Do you have a harmonium? Hayagrīva: They're from Buffalo. Oh, we have... We have two harmoniums. Allen Ginsberg: I think we have our harmonium also. Hayagrīva: We have three harmoniums. Allen Ginsberg: Same pitch? Hayagrīva: We'll have to check that tomorrow. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Let's check the pitch of the harmoniums tomorrow. I've been learning to write music. My kavi guru was a poet named William Blake. Do you know Blake? Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, yes, I have heard his name. Allen Ginsberg: So I've been writing music. He's a lot like Kabir. Yes. Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji and Bankibehari in Vṛndāvana. Do you know them at all? Prabhupāda: Śrīmataji? Allen Ginsberg: Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji in Vṛndāvana, is a lady in Vṛndāvana who translates Kabir into English, compared him with Blake. Prabhupāda: No, she is different. I know one Mātājī. She came to see me from Vṛndāvana in Los Angeles. She's in London. Allen Ginsberg: So I have been learning to notate music, in..., singing songs by William Blake which I've written a little music to. So those are, in a way, my guru's songs. Prabhupāda: I can give you so many songs. (laughter) Just like he can read it. Allen Ginsberg: Are there many songs in there? Prabhupāda: Not there. There is diacritic mark. Can you read it? Allen Ginsberg: No. I don't think. *Prabhupāda: This, Nitāi*-pada... *Allen Ginsberg: Nitāi*-pada-kamala koṭi candra suśītala. Prabhupāda: Yes, you are reading. *Allen Ginsberg: Ye chāyāya jagata jurāya. Hena nitāi vine bhāi, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa pāite nāi... Prabhupāda: Dharo nitāi... Dṛḍha kori... You can read it. It is not difficult. *Allen Ginsberg: Se sambandha nāhi jār, bṛthā janma gelo tār. What meter is that in? Da*-da-da-da da-da-da, da-da-da-da... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Allen Ginsberg: Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā... Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg: Who wrote this? Prabhupāda: This is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, a great poet and devotee. Allen Ginsberg: Who? Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Allen Ginsberg: You've been writing many in... A beautiful notebook. Prabhupāda: This, I was supplied this dummy book, without printing. So I'm using it as notebook. (laughs) Allen Ginsberg: Would you like to hear one of the Blake songs? Prabhupāda: Blake song? Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not. Allen Ginsberg: (to Peter) Do you want to sing "Tears Up"? (singing:) Prabhupāda: He believes in spiritual body. That's nice. (laughter) Allen Ginsberg: It's a,... Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Allen Ginsberg: ...it's Blake's version. Prabhupāda: (to Hayagrīva) I think you wrote one article about this? Hayagrīva: Enlight... I think in one of the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness poetry, I mentioned Blake. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: Yes, he apparently fits into, in the West what is called the Gnostic tradition, which has similar ideas and similar bhakti attitudes to the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. Similar cosmography, cosmology. He was my teacher. Prabhupāda: He did not give much stress on this material body. Allen Ginsberg: No! At the end of his life, he didn't count on the material body. Prabhupāda: So, there is a spiritual concept of life in his poetry. Hayagrīva: Blake died on chanting. I don't know what he was chanting but he died singing. Allen Ginsberg: He died singing. Prabhupāda: Ahh. Hayagrīva: He died singing something. Allen Ginsberg: What of Blake's would in fit in, I wonder? "The Lamb?" "The Lamb" would fit. Oh, "The Chimneysweeper," yes, "The Chimneysweeper." (to Peter) Do you want to try that? Prabhupāda: Chimney sweeper? Allen Ginsberg: It's a song by Blake: "When my..." (to Peter) Do you need the words or, you can follow it without the words, yeah: Prabhupāda: Some of them. Allen Ginsberg: Well it's... The chimneysweeper is the little boy who has to go into a chimney to sweep out the soot. And the man who hired the chimneysweeper cut off all his hair, and he had beautiful hair, so his friend told him, "Never mind because when your hair is gone you know that the soot cannot spoil your pretty white hair." So if you have no hair you don't have to worry what will happen to your hair, which is a very Vaiṣṇava doctrine also. Devotee: Excuse me, Prabhupāda, it's five to eleven now. Allen Ginsberg: Ok. We'd better let everybody retire. Kīrtanānanda: Here, there's a little bit of food coming. Devotee: Ah, prasādam. Allen Ginsberg: Oh, it's a Gnostic doctrine, if it's not Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Come on. You come, Mr. Ginsberg, take. First of all, you take. You take. Allen Ginsberg: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Take more. Allen Ginsberg: I have something. (end) Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio Allen Ginsberg: It becomes more and more widespread and is more and more acceptable to people... Prabhupāda: A Bengali woman is here, that Lekha? She can come and you can give. Devotee: Prabhupāda, may I ask you one question? I know that (indistinct) here is an astrologer. I can do astrological charts. Do you consider that māyā? [break] Allen Ginsberg: I don't know how... It's difficult for me to conceive everybody in America... Prabhupāda: Nothing is accepted by everybody. *Allen Ginsberg: Or even a vast, vast, vast number of people living a Hindu*-language-based, Hindu-food-based, monastic life in America. Yes. And many of us, like, do you remember Gary Snyder, who is the Buddhist boy, I think we met in New York? Kīrtanānanda: San Francisco. Allen Ginsberg: In San Francisco, was it? Yes. ...have all been thinking what form of religious practice, what form of simple meditation exercises could be set forth in America that could be adopted by a great, great, great, great many people on a large scale. We haven't solved the problem. One thing I've noticed is that the Kṛṣṇa temples have spread and are firmly rooted and solidly based. There are a number of them now. So that really is a very solid root. So I think that will continue. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: But I'm wondering what future is there? What's the future of a religious observance so technical as this? So complicated as this? Requires so much sophistication in terms of diet, daily ritual, ārati, ekādaśī, all, the whole thing that you've been teaching, how far can that spread by it's very complexness... Prabhupāda: Yes. All are complex. The whole idea is to keep the devotees always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the program. Gradually, we shall introduce more and more so that he has no scope to go outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Allen Ginsberg: Well then the question is... *Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that we are trying to make people Kṛṣṇa conscious. So how he can remain twenty*-four hours Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is the program. Allen Ginsberg: Well, the orthodox Jews have a very heavy, complicated, moment by moment ritual daily existence in that, for that same purpose. It was to keep them conscious of their religious nature. And that has maintained a small group of Jews over the centuries as an integral unit, but has tended to disappear in the later generations now simply because modern life does not allow that much Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Jewish consciousness or religious consciousness and attention, act by act throughout the day. So my question is how far can total Kṛṣṇa devotion, act by act all day, spread? How many people can that encompass in a place like America? Or are you intending only to get a few devotees, like several hundred or a thousand who will be solid and permanent. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is my program. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible for everyone. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā we learn, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births one can come to this. So it is not possible that a mass of people, a large quantity of people will be able to grasp it. You see? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Another place it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. After many thousands of men, one may be interested how to liberate himself. And out of many such liberated persons, one may understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So understanding of Kṛṣṇa is not very easy thing. But Lord Caitanya is so munificent that He has given us a, I mean to say, easy process. (indistinct) Otherwise Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not easy. Because Kṛṣṇa is the last word of Absolute Truth. Generally, people are just like animals. Out of many such persons, one becomes interested in the scriptures. And out of many such persons, if they're attracted to the scriptures, they're attracted to the ritualistic ceremony for improving their economic condition. You see? Just like Christians, they go to... Not Christian, everyone. They take up religion with a motive that they may improve their economic position. Dharma, artha. Artha means money. And then why artha? Why you want money? Now, to satisfy senses. Kāma. Dharma, artha, kāma. And when one becomes frustrated in sense gratification, then liberation, to merge. These four things are going on. Dharma, artha, kāma. The Bhāgavata says that dharma is not meant for acquiring money. Money is not meant for satisfying senses. Sense gratification should be accepted simply to maintain this body. That's all. The real business is tattva-jijñāsā, to understand. The human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā naś ceha yat karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-pritir labho jīveta yāvatā [SB 1.2.10]. Kāmasya, sense gratification, does not mean you have to increase the volume of sense gratification. No. Jīveta yāvatā, you have to accept sense gratification so far as you can live very nicely. The real business is jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Every human being should be inquisitive to know the Absolute Truth. That is the real business of human life. So to come to that business, you won't find mass of people. It is not possible. You don't expect. Allen Ginsberg: Your plan here in America, then, is to set up centers so that those who are that concerned can pursue their studies and practice a ritual? Prabhupāda: My... Personally, I have no, I mean to say, ideal or ambition. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: But it is the mission of human life to come to that point. So at least there must be some center or institution who may give them this idea. It is not that everyone will come. Just like there are many educational department. I know in Calcutta in our boyhood age, at that time Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee was vice*-president. So he opened some classes in the university. In each class there were four or five professors, and at that time the professors' salary was 1300 dollar, 1400 dollar. And the fees were collected, at most thirty-six dollar per month. You see? But still the classes were to be maintained because the ideal must be there. So our mission is the intelligent persons of the world may know that this is not, simply seeking after sense gratification is not the aim of human life. Human life is meant by... Just like Bhāgavata says, jīvasya tattva-jijnasa. Vedānta says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The same thing. Bhāgavata is nothing but explanation of Vedānta. So Vedānta says that this human form of life is meant for inquiring about Brahman. Atha ataḥ. Now. Atha means now. Atha, hereafter. That means after passing through all animalistic way of life, when a man comes to the stage of civilized life, perfect civilized life, at that time his business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, what is the Absolute Truth. That is the whole Vedānta philosophy, "What is that Absolute Truth?" The same thing is explained in Bhāgavata, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsa. Jīvasya means all living entities. The main business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. So people, by education they are misled. Instead of getting them to the highest topmost stage, to the platform of inquiring about the Absolute, they are giving facilities how you can satisfy your senses nicely. Allen Ginsberg: O.K., but now in America there is a bankruptcy of sense satisfaction. Everybody agrees. Prabhupāda: Must be there. Must be there. Allen Ginsberg: Everybody agrees that our civilization has come to the end of its possibilities materially. So everybody understands that. It's in New York Times editorials as well as in the editorials of ISKCON journals. Both. And there is a population explosion as you've noted and as the middle class has noted. So everybody then is looking for an alternative to material extension. Prabhupāda: They should inquire about the Absolute Truth. Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my original question was: is the complicated ritual and the Sanskrit language... Prabhupāda: No, no. Now we are placing so many things in English language. Our all books are being published in English. Our magazine is in English. Allen Ginsberg: But the question is, is the mode of life that you are proposing adaptable to many, many, many people? Prabhupāda: That I say that is not for many, many people. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. But there are, there is a thirst by many, many people for an alternative answer. For a better alternative system. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if they are actually thirsty, if they are actually thirsty, then they can adopt this. What is the difficulty there? There is no difficulty. So many American boys they have already adopted. They are not feeling any difficulty. They are feeling relief. What is difficulty? In what point it is difficult? Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting you are chanting. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is all in Sanskrit. What difficulty you are feeling? Allen Ginsberg: I don't feel too much difficulty, except aesthetically I do feel a difficulty. Yes, there is. The difficulty I feel is that there should be some flower of the American language to communicate in rather than... Prabhupāda: Therefore we are seeking your help. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Well I haven't found a way, I still just stay chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Therefore why I have come to you? That is also my view. I have come to America with this view, that America is on the summit of material civilization. They are not poverty*-stricken. You see? And they are seeking after something. Therefore I have come, that "You take this, you'll be happy." That is my mission. And if the Americans take, then all other countries will take because America is leading at the present moment. So persons, exalted persons like you, you try to understand. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, anyone can chant. Even the child is trying. There is no difficulty. And so far what is our modes of living? Allen Ginsberg: Mere chanting without the practice of a philosophy and a daily ritual... *Prabhupāda: Philosophy is there. We are teaching Bhagavad*-gītā. We are talking on Bhāgavata philosophy, we are talking on Caitanya's philosophy. Allen Ginsberg: And you have a daily ritual. Prabhupāda: We are distributing papers. And... Everything is there. Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So my question then, as it was originally when you first asked me, what do I think... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Allen Ginsberg: Is the Caitanya*-Kṛṣṇa ritual, as you have it here in this house and in the other āśramas, is that something that a large mass of people can enter into? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Allen Ginsberg: In America? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have seen. All my students are Americans. So it has to be... And it is spreading. Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but what it requires is an adaptation of Indian dress and an adaptation... Prabhupāda: That is not very important. Allen Ginsberg: And an adaptation to Indian food. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian food... It is not Indian food. Are you not eating fruits? Allen Ginsberg: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Then that is Indian food? Do you mean to say it is Indian food? Allen Ginsberg: Well, the curries. *Prabhupāda: Curries you may boil only. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you have to take our taste. No. That is not the program, that to become Kṛṣṇa conscious you have to change your taste. No. We say from the Bhagavad*-gītā... Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. "Anyone who is offering Me with devotion these vegetables, fruits, flowers, milk, I accept that." But we are going to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are selecting foodstuff from this group. That you are all already accepting. Don't you take vegetables? Don't you take fruits? Don't you take grains? So where is the new item? Now, so far cooking, you can cook in your own taste. But the group must be this. Not meat. Because Kṛṣṇa does not say. That is our program. So you are already taking grains, you are eating fruits, you are drinking milk. So where is the difference? I don't find any difference. Allen Ginsberg: Well, I suppose not. You could say there is no difference because the food is basically the same materially. It's just a question of the style. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you take... Style may be different. That's all right. Besides that, to maintain your body and soul together, you require eating, you require sleeping, you require mating, you require defense. We don't say that you don't do this. Kṛṣṇa was... Arjuna was defending. Rather, he wanted to be nonviolent. "Oh, what is the use of fighting?" Kṛṣṇa said, "No. It is required. You should." So where is the difference? There is no difference. Simply we are adjusting things so that you may become happy. Any intelligent man will take it. We are not prohibiting, but we are adjusting. So there is no difficulty. Simply intelligent persons like you should try to understand and take it and administer because your country is wanting this. Allen Ginsberg: But there is a limit to how much the pronunciation of Kṛṣṇa will spread I think. There's a limit. *Prabhupāda: Hm? No limit. You can pronounce in any way Kṛṣṇa. K*-r-i-s-h-n-a. That's all. Any way. Niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. Allen Ginsberg: The limit is people's prejudice... Prabhupāda: So we don't say that why you are chanting Kṛṣṇa like this? We never say that. We simply say, please try to chant Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: Or let us say there would be a limit until the word Kṛṣṇa became as common in English as any other English word. Prabhupāda: It is already in the dictionary. It is already in the dictionary. All dictionaries you will find Kṛṣṇa. What do you want more? Allen Ginsberg: Something that will not disturb truckdrivers. Lady (Indian): They can say Christ, they can say Kṛṣṇa. It is same. Allen Ginsberg: That is true... True. But they don't say Christ. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now Krist... I have read one book, Aquarian... Kīrtanānanda: Aquarian Gospel? Prabhupāda: Gospel, yes. In there it is explained that Krist means love. Christ means love. And Kṛṣṇa also means love. So there from Kṛṣṇa this word Krist has come. And in India somebody says Kristha. Instead of Kṛṣṇa, they say Kristha. Allen Ginsberg: Where? *Prabhupāda: And in apa*-bhraṁśa, has come Kestha. Generally they talk, instead of pronouncing very nicely Kṛṣṇa... Somebody's name is Kṛṣṇachandra. "Hey, Kesthara." Allen Ginsberg: Where is this? Prabhupāda: In India everywhere. Kestha. So Kestha, Kristha or Kṛṣṇa, they're on the same group, aiming the same group. It is not difficult. Allen Ginsberg: Of course, Catholicism in the West operated in Latin. Prabhupāda: Huh? Allen Ginsberg: Catholicism in the West operated in Latin for centuries. *Prabhupāda: Latin is from Sanskrit. Yes. Latin is from Sanskrit. Professor Rowe and Webb of Presidency College in Calcutta, they have got a grammar. They have said the Sanskrit language is mother of all languages. They were big English scholar, professor, Mr. Rowe and Webb. We had to read their grammar in our childhood. They have said that Sanskrit language is the mother of all languages. And in the dictionary you'll find Indo-European language practically all from Sanskrit. The original word mātṛ-śabda*-the "mater," no? Allen Ginsberg: But the question I'm posing still is this. You accept the possibility of a series of Kṛṣṇa consciousness centers in the United States. Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided a man is not adversely inclined. Otherwise it is very simple. Allen Ginsberg: But what I'm wondering is how far beyond exclusive centers, how far beyond that can it go in the United States? How far beyond a special study cult centers can a Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement or any religious movement grow? 'Cause the need is for a large single unifying religious movement in America. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So here is Kṛṣṇa. All-attractive. You now find out... You can say, "Why I shall accept Kṛṣṇa?" You can say like that. Your first question is the unifying agent. I say here is Kṛṣṇa. Now we can analyze, "Why you shall accept Kṛṣṇa?" Then I shall reply, "Why you shall not?" What do you want, expect from the Supreme or the unifying, what do you expect? Everything is there in Kṛṣṇa. Opulence-Kṛṣṇa. Beauty-Kṛṣṇa. Wisdom-Kṛṣṇa. Renunciation-Kṛṣṇa. Strength-Kṛṣṇa. Everything in Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you want you'll find in Kṛṣṇa. That is the unifying center. That I will convince you. He is the unifying center actually. And Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ partha sarvaśaḥ. "Everyone is trying to come to Me. Everyone is trying to come to Me." Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. "But he's realizing Me in My different phases. But everyone is trying." So so far unifying religion is concerned there are three groups: impersonalists, personalists, and localized. Some are trying to understand the Absolute Truth in impersonal way. Some are... The yogis, the mental speculators, they are trying to understand the Absolute in impersonal, without any personal form. And the yogis, they are trying to find out Kṛṣṇa within their heart, meditation. And some are trying to find out the Absolute Truth in person by reciprocating love. So all these things are in Kṛṣṇa. And Bhāgavata says after explanation of that verse that it is the only business of human being to find out the Absolute Truth. Now, the next verse, the Absolute Truth is explained, analyzed, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. Now, Absolute Truth is always one. There is no... Absolute Truth cannot be two. Then it is relative truth. Absolute Truth means one. So the knowledge of the Absolute Truth is one. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas [SB 1.2.11]. Tattva-vidas means those who are in knowledge of the Absolute Truth, they say that Absolute Truth is one. But He's realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Brahman means impersonal, and Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So these are different stages. Just like the sun. The first experience of sun is this impersonal effulgence all over the sky. But that is not very important than the sun globe. Because it is from the sun globe the effulgence is coming. So anyone will understand that this sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. And if you approach the sun globe and if you penetrate into the sun, if you have got strength to go into the... Just like you are trying go to the moon planet. If you have got really scientific strength to go within the sun planet, then you'll find there is sun-god. That information we get from Bhagavad-gītā. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I told the sun*-god Vivasvān first." So therefore there is a person. And why not a person? Your imagination is not ultimate truth. We get information from Kṛṣṇa, there is a person, Vivasvān. So there is a person, he's sitting there. Person, globe, sun, sunshine. Which is important? Which is important? Allen Ginsberg: The person, the globe or the sunshine? Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: (laughs) I don't know. *Prabhupāda: Why you don't know? You cannot say them? Which of them? These three things are presenting. The sunshine, the sun globe, and within the sun globe, the sun*-god. Who is important? Allen Ginsberg: If we could apprehend it in terms of person, the person. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: But if we could apprehend it only in terms of the globe, then the globe. Prabhupāda: So that means your approach may be up to globe, but that is not finished. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is not finished. You have to go... That is... Upaniṣad says that, he's praying that "Please wind up Your effulgence so that I can see Your true face." The Upaniṣad says. You see in the Upaniṣad. And he's praying that "Please wind up Your this glaring effulgence so that I can see Your real face." So real face is there. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, brahmaṇo 'ham pratiṣṭhā. "This impersonal Brahman is standing on My existence." And Brahma-saṁhitā says that Allen Ginsberg: Yes, but I'm not even convinced. Prabhupāda: No. Allen Ginsberg: I mean, everything you say is beautiful, but... *Prabhupāda: No. You are very intelligent boy. Why not you are intelligent? You are recognized poet, you are popular poet. Why you... I take you are intelligent. You are first*-class intelligent. You are chanting. Allen Ginsberg: But that's almost a physical body movement, the chanting rather than a... *Prabhupāda: Maybe, but your intelligence is sufficient. That is... If that standard of intelligent men I get, that is my fortune. You see. Now, at least I request you, you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy. It is not sentiment. It is not bluffing. It is not a money*-making business that I give you some... Allen Ginsberg: No. Obviously not. *Prabhupāda: You see? You know from the very beginning. I came here single*-handed. I chanted. That's all. I never asked anybody money. Allen Ginsberg: That was never in question. Prabhupāda: So I never said that "I'll give you Kṛṣṇa consciousness or this..." No, I mean to say... So it is not bluff. It is purely scientific, transcendental science. So I want some American gentlemen to understand this. Allen Ginsberg: Well, Howard does. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we want many Howards. (laughs) Your country is so big. Allen Ginsberg: Actually, what I got into, you were saying so everything stands on "My," Kṛṣṇa's personality. And then there was a twist there: "But I am empty." Is that what you said before? Do you remember? Just about eight minutes ago you concluded the description of the sun and the... Prabhupāda: Sun globe, sun, and the sunshine. Kīrtanānanda: Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything is depending on Me and still I am not in them." Allen Ginsberg: Oh, oh. I guess that's where I... "Everything is depending on Me, yet I am not in them." Prabhupāda: "Everything is resting on Me. But I am not there." Just like this is Kṛṣṇa. Without Kṛṣṇa it has no existence. But it is not Kṛṣṇa. The pantheist will say "I... Everything is Kṛṣṇa, then I worship this." Allen Ginsberg: So who is Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: If He's not apprehensible by senses... *Prabhupāda: No. Why not senses? This is Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. But at the same time... This is the philosophy of Lord Caitanya. Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. That is very easy... Suppose this is gold. But this gold is not the gold mine. There is a difference. It is gold. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa, but still is different from Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat. Eka-sthānī sthitasyajñer jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā, parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat. The same example, that the sun. The sun is, sun-god is situated one place, but it is fiery. Blazing fire. Its heat and light is expanded. You see practically, the heat and light. So whatever this material existence is the sunlight, sunshine. Everything existing on sunshine. It is scientific. Your electricity, your this, that, whatever you take it is all sunshine. All these planets are moving, rotating on the sunshine. Heat. If heat is taken away immediately whole thing spoiled. Therefore everything is resting on the energy of the sunshine, but if you say that "Then let me find out the sun*-god in the sunshine," that you will have to go there. Hayagrīva: The Christians, I think they say, God is more than His creation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. This creation is only a part of manifestation of His energy. Insignificant. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā. Allen Ginsberg: Well, the chanting is easy. The chanting is easy. That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them do that. Don't come to the ritualistic performances. Let them chant as far as possible and see the result. This is the easiest method of transcendental realization. But if you recommend, oh, that will be accepted by many. And if we... Allen Ginsberg: No. You see, I recommend it quite a bit but it isn't accepted by very many. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no. Then I say, you are American. You are popular leader. You have got some voice. I am a foreigner. I have come new, and who cares for me? That is a different thing. Allen Ginsberg: Well, that's why I'm asking you very specifically cause I've been chanting for five years, six years. Since 1963, '64. Since the fall of 1963, I've been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa on this continent, beginning in Vancouver in July, 1963. And I am finding there is a limitation to how many people will join that chant. Or I have found a limitation. Part of the limitation is the fact that it is strange and new to people here. Prabhupāda: But there is no loss. Allen Ginsberg: As it becomes familiar, it might spread a little. Part of the limitation is just a natural resentment or resistance, people wanting a prayer in their own tongue, in their own language. I don't know... So that is, for the same reason an American Indian chant would not take hold or even a Latin chant would not take universal hold. Prabhupāda: Mantra, mantra means... Allen Ginsberg: So that many of us will say, "Is it possible to find an American mantra?" Prabhupāda: Mantra means the transcendental sound. You see. Just like oṁkāra. Allen Ginsberg: So you think the very nature of the sound... Okay, but now, oṁ is an absolutely natural sound from the throat to the mouth. And yet even oṁ, natural as it is, sounds foreign. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is a praṇāma. It is accepted. Allen Ginsberg: That also sounds foreign here. It's hard to get people to say auṁ even. 'Cause I tried in Chicago with auṁ and with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But there is no other alternative. Allen Ginsberg: Well, we haven't been able to think of one yet, I'll tell you that. Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune if they... Lady: (Bengali) Allen Ginsberg: Many people here have said, "What about 'God, God, God, God, God.' " But that doesn't have the right... Hayagrīva: No, that doesn't make it. Kīrtanānanda: You couldn't do it(?) that for five minutes. Allen Ginsberg: Well, you could almost do, "Amen, Amen." Hayagrīva: That's not English. Allen Ginsberg: Yes, that's not English. (laughter) But it's known in English. And maybe Kṛṣṇa could become as well known as God and Amen, or something like that. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is in English dictionary. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Now in the dictionary? Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: He infiltrated the dictionary. Hayagrīva: Although as an incarnation of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: English dictionary. Allen Ginsberg: Let's see what it says in the English dictionary. Hayagrīva: "Eighth incarnation of Viṣṇu." Lady: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Just see. Here is an intelligent statement. Yes. You can explain in English. Lady: I was saying that when the question of knowledge came and Western education was high tops, still it is, thousands of people from other countries like Africa, and India, and all the people, they deliberately learned from the beginning, from childhood, to speak. They started saying Mama and Papa and they're still coming to the higher education in these universities. And when the question comes of ultimate knowledge and the Western civilization doesn't want to take, only the word, just the word, so that is their limitation. They don't want to know. Allen Ginsberg: Okay. Partly the fear of that, is that the study of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become as bureaucratized in America as the examination system has made the study of higher Western knowledge in India. Lady: Yes. But the only difference is that that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is unlimited. It glorifies the Lord and it makes unlimited. But this education is just limited. See? Limited education other people can come and learn and take their language of their own mother tongue. Prabhupāda: Takes so much trouble. Simply for uttering one Kṛṣṇa they are not prepared to take little trouble? Lady: Liberation. The whole life, whole human life liberation. They don't take, they don't like to take because it is started in Indian language. Or it is not Indian language. Kṛṣṇa is not Indian language. Oṁ isn't Indian language. It's the ultimate God's name. Prabhupāda: Neither Kṛṣṇa says that He is Indian. Lady: He didn't say, "I am Indian." It's universal. It's not Indian. Oṁ is not Indian. Anybody who wants to know oṁ, how to say oṁ. See? Prabhupāda: So you have to accept little trouble to utter Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Allen Ginsberg: I'm willing. Prabhupāda: We have taken so much trouble for understanding English language. And simply for our transcendental understanding... Allen Ginsberg: It's next to Santa Claus in the dictionary. Lady: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is Santa Claus. He is everything. He gives everything. Prabhupāda: Very good. Allen Ginsberg: Have you seen that? Kṛṣṇa's next to Kris Kringle. Prabhupāda: What is the, what is the Kṛṣṇa? What does he say? Kīrtanānanda: "Eighth avatar of Viṣṇu. From Sanskrit Kṛṣṇa. The widespread form of Hindu worship." Hayagrīva: That's the usual. That's in all the dictionaries. Lady: Only the Indian people are lucky that still they are holding it tight. That's all. Now other people have forgotten. But it's all universal. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said in the Bhagavad*-gītā that "I am the father of everyone." Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. Not only human being. All animals, trees, plants. So Kṛṣṇa is universal. Allen Ginsberg: Now, for instance, in America many of the black people are tending toward Allah and toward Muhammadanism. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Somebody is inclined to some thing, somebody is inclined to some thing. That is going on, and it will go on till the end of the creation. (laughing) Allen Ginsberg: Yuga. Prabhupāda: But our process is that, you are searching after the center, here is the center. That is our proposal. Allen Ginsberg: But what do you do when different religious groups claim to be the center? What do you do when different religious groups... *Prabhupāda: No, we welcome every religion. We don't decry any religion. Our point is the love of Godhead. Or Kṛṣṇa is love, all*-attractive. So we want to be attracted by Kṛṣṇa. Just like a magnetic force and iron. Unless iron is rusty, it is automatically attracted by the magnetic force. Similarly, we are contaminated by material coverings. So we are trying to make it rustless so that immediately we shall be attracted. This is the program. Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive. That is a fact. And we are attracted. But being covered with this rust, we are, instead of being attracted by Kṛṣṇa, we are being attracted by māyā. This is our whole program. So our central program is how to love Kṛṣṇa, or how to love God. So we want to see... That is the Bhāgavata definition, that how much you have enhanced your love of God. You call Kṛṣṇa or something else, that doesn't matter. Phalena paricīyate. The result. Your religious principle, what is the result? Are you enhancing your love for God or dog? That we want to see. If you are enhancing your love for God, it is all right. We don't say anything. But if... People should learn how to love. That is the perfection of life. That we are teaching. Allen Ginsberg: If you're identifying love, however, with the sabda Kṛṣṇa, what of those people who identify love with the sabda Allah? *Prabhupāda: If that śabda, of course, identifies with God, we have no objection. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis. God has many names. God is attractive, His name is also attractive, because He's not different from His name. If you have got exactly the same attractive name, we have no objection. We simply say, "You chant God's name, holy name." Then you become purified. That is our program. We don't say that you change your Christianity. No. We don't say. If you have got a nice name, all-attractive name, in your scripture-don't manufacture but authorized-then you chant that. We simply request, "You chant." Allen Ginsberg: Well, then how would you adapt the Kṛṣṇa chanting to Christianity? By seeing Kṛṣṇa as Christ or Christ as Kṛṣṇa and sounding Christ's image in Kṛṣṇa's name? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Christ... Of course, this question was several times put to me. Christ says that "I am son of God." And Kṛṣṇa says "I am God." So there is no difference. Son of God and God, we respect everyone. If I respect your father, I respect you also. Do you mean to say if I disrespect your father, you'll be pleased upon me? No. That is our philosophy. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that I am servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. So if anyone loves Kṛṣṇa, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love Kṛṣṇa. If he says, "Why shall I love Kṛṣṇa? I shall love Jesus Christ," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus Christ? I shall love...", then he has also no knowledge. If one understands Kṛṣṇa, then he will understand Jesus Christ. If one understands Jesus Christ, you'll understand Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think that the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant could serve as an intermediary to link the religious tendencies of, both of Christianity and Muslim religions? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Any religion. Any religion. If he's serious about religion. If he takes the religion as a scapegoat, that is different thing. If he wants to understand religion and if he takes seriously to religion, then he will understand. We want serious persons. Now, according to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, religion means creation of the laws of God. Dharmaṁ tu sakṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Laws of God. Who will deny it? Who will deny it? Any religion, Christian, Muhammadan or any. Who can deny that religion is the laws of God? Simple explanation. If you ask what is meant by religion, religion is laws of God. That's all. And if you want to know what is God, that is also replied. "The original source of everything." So one should try to understand in this way. But if one wants to remain in his compact ideas and does not want to go further, then it is very difficult. He should be open-minded and appreciating. Then everything is all right. We say, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, it is not that you are necessarily to chant Kṛṣṇa, but if you have no suitable name, then chant Kṛṣṇa. Why do you make differentiate. Every name is the same. Allen Ginsberg: So if you have no other suitable name, chant Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chant Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: That's Caitanya's...? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Allen Ginsberg: Did He feel there were other suitable names? Did He feel or did He think that... Prabhupāda: Yes. He said many thousand millions names there are. But if you are serious about God, then... You may have many names by your friends, but any name will do. Allen Ginsberg: Okay. So the problem I was posing before is, which I leave open, I don't know. What is the most attractive and suitable name here in this material country? Prabhupāda: Now, take for example the Muhammadan name Allah. Allah means the greatest. So God is greatest. So that greatest conception is this Brahman conception. And so far Christian, I don't think they have got any particular name. They say God. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Lord, God. That is the basic one. Prabhupāda: Controller. God means controller. Is it not? Allen Ginsberg: What is the etymology of God? Do you know? Hayagrīva: I don't know. Prabhupāda: God is the equivalent of īśvara. Īśvara means controller. Allen Ginsberg: Then the Jews, which were my background, had a prohibition... Prabhupāda: Jehovah. Allen Ginsberg: They had Jehovah, but they had a prohibition of pronouncing the highest names. 'Cause they felt that God was imageless, and therefore should not be pronounced or painted. My background is I guess what would be impersonalist. Hayagrīva: The Jews are personalist. Allen Ginsberg: Well, what are they? Impersonalists or personalists? Lady: Impersonalists. They believe in just the Absolute. That's all. Prabhupāda: That was the difference in Jesus Christ. He was a personalist. Devotee: Hasidics are personal. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. They put their devotion into the rabbi or the guru. The ancient Hebrew... I guess you must know about that. The ancient Hebrew teaching was that the name of God should never be pronounced. Prabhupāda: Now we come to know... *Allen Ginsberg: J*-H-V-H. Prabhupāda: Anyway why God's name... Allen Ginsberg: Pictures should not be made. Pictures should not be made. Because it would limit God to human conception. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is in Muhammadan. That means God is not material. That is the idea. Because here the idea is when I make something image or picture, that is material. So there is a prohibition of accepting God as material. But if you go to a higher stage, then you'll understand that if God is everything then there is no material. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. If God is everything, then where is material? He is spiritual. Material means when you cannot understand God. That is material. Everything is sky. When it is covered by cloud we call it is cloudy. Similarly, cloud has no existence. It comes only to cover sometimes, but the sky is eternal. Similarly, God is eternal. When you are covered by some māyā, you cannot see, you cannot understand God, that is material. So any philosophy which does not help understanding God, that is material. That is material. Otherwise, there is no material. Where is material if God is everything? Sarvam khalv idam brahma. You see? Hayagrīva: All spirits. Prabhupāda: All spirit. All the sky. Everywhere is sky, but when it's covered it is called cloud. Similarly when God is covered by some nonsense ideas, then it is material. Otherwise, there is no material. Therefore those who are too much absorbed in materialistic way, there is a restriction but don't attempt. Because he will be to think that God's name is just like my son's name my daughter's name. Therefore that restriction. Ranadhir: I think when they worship, they're allowed to say God's name, it's just when they're not, when they're talking about Him outside the temple that they have to use different name. Hayagrīva: We've got to tune some harmoniums. Allen Ginsberg: Yes, we have to work on the music boxes. We have to start material preparations for the evening. Prabhupāda: That is not material. (laughter) We have no,... Allen Ginsberg: A śabda preparation. *Prabhupāda: Yes, śabda is originally spi..., śabda*-brahman. Allen Ginsberg: We have to find out if all the... Prabhupāda: Simply you have to understand that there is nothing material, everything is spiritual. That is required. So long you do not understand that everything is spiritual only, that is our defect. Allen Ginsberg: Well, then even sexuality is spiritual? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā: if you use sexuality for giving birth to nice child, not cats and dogs, that is spiritual. But people are using sexuality for other purposes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śāstra-viruddho(?), according to religious ritualistic way, if one, when one uses sex life that is (indistinct). That is, therefore in the, according to Vedic system, therefore, having sex life with wife, there is a great ceremony which is called garbhādhāna ceremony, and all the higher caste, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, śūdra, er vaiśyas especially, they are to observe ten kinds of reformative process. The first process is while giving birth to a child there is a great ceremony, garbhādhāna. So it is not a secret. To beget nice child, then there will be nice population, then there will be peace and prosperity. If you beget cats and dogs, how can you expect peace and prosperity? Living in the same dog society, cat society then there will be peace? No. Allen Ginsberg: I would rather dogs and cats being Kṛṣṇa's though. Prabhupāda: Hum? Allen Ginsberg: But if all matter is Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: That's all right, but when Kṛṣṇa is covered, when Kṛṣṇa is covered, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. The same example: cloud is sunshine, but it covers. What is the cloud? This is creation of the sunshine as these trees and everything is creation of sunshine. Cloud is also. Mind is also Kṛṣṇa's. In that sense Mind is also Kṛṣṇa, but it has a covering spirit. Lady: The element, its quality. Hayagrīva: It's a whole spirit but in certain circumstances we tend to forget this... Prabhupāda: Material energy that's said by Kṛṣṇa aparā, inferior energy. Bhūmir āpo, bhūmir āpo analo, prakṛtir me bhinnā aṣṭadhā. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā [Bg. 7.5]. So material energy is the covering energy, is also Kṛṣṇa. Just like police department is also government, but it is not very convenient because putting under police department. (laughter) That is also government department. For government the university department and the police are equally important. They are spending equally, are taking care of both the, but for us, "Oh, police department horrible." This man is under police department, police custody, and that man is in education. Lady: That's much better. *Prabhupāda: But when you go to the government state, they are equally important. They are distributing the finance everywhere. So similarly either you take material energy or spiritual energy or marginal energy, all energy of God's, Kṛṣṇa's, but they are acting differently. So, so far I am marginal energy, if I am under the control of the material energy, that is my misfortune. But if I am controlled by the spiritual energy, that is my fortune. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. They take shelter of the spiritual energy. They are mahātmā, and what is their symptom: bhajanty ananya manaso, simply engaged in devotional service. That, that is required. Devotees: Haribol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 13, 1969, Columbus, Ohio Prabhupāda: What is called? Lunatic, compact in thought. (chuckles) So Kṛṣṇa lover is also another kind of lunatic effect. Allen Ginsberg: Except that it would mean concentrating all my consciousness on the one single image of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Not image. Allen Ginsberg: Or the one single thought or name or feeling or awareness. *Prabhupāda: That we have got varieties of duties. Just like we are. You have seen all these boys. They are always engaged. Always engaged. Similarly, everywhere they are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa. We want extra time to work for Kṛṣṇa. The twenty*-four hours is not sufficient for us. Yes. Then we shall see that we are sleeping, wasting time. Gosvāmīs, they used to sleep for one half-hour only. That also sometimes forgot. Allen Ginsberg: To dream? *Prabhupāda: No. They were always engaged. Volumes of books they have written. When there is no writing, chanting, dancing, talking, and like that*-engaged in Kṛṣṇa always. That we have been taught by our Guru Mahārāja, twenty-four hours engagement with Kṛṣṇa. So māyā has no scope to enter in our mind. She always remains aloof: "Oh, here is fire. I cannot touch." Bhakti mukulitāñ... Bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā yadi bhagavan syād daivena phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ, muktir mukulitāñjaliḥ sevate 'smān. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, a great devotee, he executed devotional service for seven hundred years. He lived for seven hundred years in Vṛndāvana. That picture you have seen, Sūradāsa? Yes. Allen Ginsberg: Sūradāsa, the poet. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is known as Sūradāsa. Allen Ginsberg: Teacher of Tulasī Dāsa, or student of Tulasī Dāsa. Prabhupāda: He may be different, but Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, he was also blind. He made himself blind. You know the story of Bilvamaṅgala? Allen Ginsberg: No. *Prabhupāda: Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Kṛṣṇa. Not exactly, just previous, bhāva. It is called bhāva, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish, so according to the instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā, he was given birth to a nice brāhmaṇa family. (aside:) You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear. So very rich. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41], in that way. Rich family, at the same time, brāhmaṇa family. But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women, and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintāmaṇi. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that about that prostitute, Cintāmaṇi. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintāmaṇi, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura? Yes. So he asked his servants, "Give me some food. I shall go to Cintāmaṇi." So anyway, he performed... Did not perform. His mind was there. He took some nice foodstuff, and when he went, there was a big river, and it was raining heavily, and the river was flooded. So he thought, "How shall I go the other side?" So one dead body was floating. So he thought, "It is a log," and he took the help of the log and went the other side. And it was heavy raining. And then, when he reached that Cintāmaṇi's home, he saw the door is locked already. Blocked. So he jumped over the wall, taking the tail of a serpent, and when he reached inside, he knocked the door, and Cintāmaṇi was astonished. "How did you come? So heavy rain. You had to cross the river." He said everything, that "Oh, I cannot stay without you." So she was much inquisitive: "How did you come? How did you jump over this wall?" And so he showed everything, that there was a big snake, and so he thought it as rope and jumped it. And then, when he went to the riverside, he saw that was a dead body. So at that time Cintāmaṇi thought, "Oh, this man is so much addicted to me." So she told, "Oh, this much attraction if you would have with Kṛṣṇa, oh, how nice your life would have been." So immediately he came to his senses because he was lifted to that position in his previous life. So immediately he left and was going alone to Vṛndāvana. And on the way he saw another beautiful woman. So his business was to be attracted by woman. So he again became attracted. So he was following. So this woman, after entering, she told her husband, "Just see, this man is following from a distant place." So he asked him, "Oh, come on." He saw he is nice gentleman. He was a rich man, brāhmaṇa. "What is this?" He said plainly, "Oh, I have been attracted by your wife, by the beauty of your wife." "All right, come on. What is that?" You enjoy my wife. You are brāhmaṇa. You are..." So he was received well. And at night, when he was given place, then he asked that woman, "Mother, will you give me your hair pin?" He took the hair pin and pushed in the eyes: "Oh, these eyes are my enemy." Since then he became blind. And in that blindness he was worshiping Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa was coming to him. And he would not touch. He'll sing, dance, and He'll supply milk and go away. So this Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura wrote one book, Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta. It is very valuable book. That is very highly estimated, Lord Caitanya. Allen Ginsberg: What century is that? Prabhupāda: It is since seven hundred years... Guest (1) (Indian Woman): Fourteenth... Prabhupāda: Yes, fourteenth century. Allen Ginsberg: Bilda... How do you pronounce his name? Prabhupāda: No. Fourteenth century, not Bilvamaṅgala. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, some time before(?). Guest (1): Bilvamaṅgala. Allen Ginsberg: Bilvamaṅgala. Bilvamaṅgala. No, I didn't know the name. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many poets. He was great poet. If you read this Kṛṣṇa*-karṇāmṛta poetry, ah, you'll find... Guest (1): Vaiṣṇava, (Bengali) ...Vidyāpati, Candidāsa. Prabhupāda: Vidyāpati, Candidāsa, Jayadeva. Allen Ginsberg: Jayadeva, I know. Guest (1): Jayadeva is a great Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: There are many nice poets. Allen Ginsberg: I know some of the Baul poetry in English. Prabhupāda: You just try to read this Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura especially. Allen Ginsberg: Who? Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Allen Ginsberg: Nartham. Prabhupāda: There are many... Guest (1): Narottama. *Prabhupāda: That song you were reading last night, Nitāi pada kamala? That is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song. For the Vaiṣṇava, to become poet is another qualification. Vaiṣṇava has twenty*-six qualifications. I think it is written there. Allen Ginsberg: And one of them is to become poet also. Prabhupāda: Poet. He must be poet. All the Vaiṣṇavas, they are poet. Guest (1): Because they are so deep in love with God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Poetry comes out in deep love with something. Allen Ginsberg: Is that published somewhere? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Arjuna just typed it up, and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: You want to see? Allen Ginsberg: No, don't take it down. I'll look. On my way out I'll read. Prabhupāda: Hṛṣīkeśa, you can read loudly. We'll hear. *Hṛṣīkeśa: "Qualifications of devotee: 1) kind to everyone, 2) does not quarrel with anyone, 3) fixed in the Absolute Truth, 4) equal to everyone, 5) faultless, 6) charitable, 7) mild, 8) clean, 9) simple, 10) benevolent, 11) peaceful, 12) completely attached to Kṛṣṇa, 13) no material hankering, 14) meek, 15) steady, 16) self*-controlled, 17) does not eat more than required, 18) sane, 19) respectful..." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not insane. Hṛṣīkeśa: "...20) humble, 21) grave, 22) compassionate, 23) friendly, 24) poetic, 25) expert..." Prabhupāda: Poetic. Hṛṣīkeśa: "...25) expert, and 26) silent." Prabhupāda: These are the qualities. Allen Ginsberg: Whose list is that? Is that an old list or have you made that up for young Americans?" Prabhupāda: Yes. No, these are taken from authoritative śāstras. Yes. This is the test, whether you are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious or not. You have to test yourself, whether you are developing these qualities. This is for testing. Allen Ginsberg: I'm slowly developing all qualities except sanity. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Insanity for seeking Kṛṣṇa, that is required. Yes. Unless you become insane after Kṛṣṇa just like Lord Caitanya became... Yes. His worship is to become insane after Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: Is Kabir in the Vaiṣṇava tradition? Guest (1): He is mystic. Allen Ginsberg: So what tradition is he in, actually? Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist on the whole. He is impersonalist, whole, and he has got some Vaiṣṇava thought. That's all, perverted thoughts. Perverted thoughts. Allen Ginsberg: So who is the most perfect of the Vaiṣṇava poets? That would be Mīrā? Guest (1): Mīrā was a devotee. She was a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee means... Guest (1): Vaiṣṇava. She was, Mīrā, Kṛṣṇa devotee. Oh, her songs has called me. Allen Ginsberg: Have you used her songs here at all? Prabhupāda: Yes, in India it is very popular, Mīrā's song. Mostly they are written in Hindi, and some of them have been interpolated. But Mīrā was a devotee. She saw Rūpa Gosvāmī, a contemporary. She has written many poetry about Lord Caitanya. Allen Ginsberg: Oh, she was a contemporary of Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: Did they meet? *Prabhupāda: No. She appreciated that Lord Caitanya is Kṛṣṇa, and she has written one poetry, song, that "Now You have left aside Your flute, and You have taken the sannyāsī rod." In that way she has written nice poetry. "And where is Your hair and peacock feather? Now You are bald*-headed." In this way. So Mīrā appreciated. Her life is also very excellent. Her father gave her a small Kṛṣṇa doll to play, and she developed love for Kṛṣṇa as husband. So when she was married... She was princess, daughter of king, and she was married with another prince. Allen Ginsberg: What position does Anandamayi Ma have now? Prabhupāda: She is also impersonalist. Allen Ginsberg: She is impersonalist Prabhupāda: She is not a devotee. There are many impersonalists. They take advantage of... They say, "Caitanya's patha, Śaṅkara's maṭha," that "Follow the principle of Caitanya but ultimately take the conclusion of Śaṅkara." That means... Allen Ginsberg: Śiva. Prabhupāda: No. Śaṅkarācārya. Allen Ginsberg: Aha. What was the conclusion of Śaṅkarācārya? *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya's conclusion was to defeat Buddhism. They do not know it, but actually, when there was too much animal*-killing and people became almost atheist under the shadow of Vedic rituals, Lord Buddha appeared. He wanted to stop men from the sinful activities of killing unnecessarily under the plea of Vedas. So he invented that ahiṁsa, nonviolence. And... Because people will give evidence, "Oh, in the Vedas there is..." They are not following, actually, the Vedic rituals, but just like crooked lawyers take advantage of law books, similarly... Therefore, Lord Buddha said that "I do not follow Vedic rituals. I have nothing to do with Vedas. It is my own formula." So Jayadeva has written one prayer because the Vaiṣṇavas can understand how God is playing. So he writes, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ: "My dear Lord, now You have appeared as Lord Buddha. You are decrying the Vedic rituals." Śruti-jātaṁ. Śruti-jātaṁ means Vedic. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam: "You are so much compassionate to see poor animals being killed unnecessarily." Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare: "All glories to Jagadīśa. You have now assumed the form of Lord Buddha, and You are playing in pastimes." So Lord Buddha is accepted as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. In Bhāgavata also it is stated. He is accepted as the tenth incarnation. Allen Ginsberg: Ah. Who was nine? Prabhupāda: Nine was Baladeva. Baladeva, Kṛṣṇa's elder brother Balarāma. Allen Ginsberg: Then Buddha is one possible tenth. Prabhupāda: Not tenth. Buddha is ninth. Yes. Buddha is ninth. Baladeva is eighth. And the tenth is awaiting. Allen Ginsberg: Kalki. Prabhupāda: Kalki. Allen Ginsberg: Now, what is Kalki's nature? Prabhupāda: Kalki's nature, that is described in Bhāgavata. He will come just like a prince, royal dress with sword, and on horseback, simply killing, no preaching. All rascals killed. No more preaching. (laughing) That is the last. There will be no brain to understand what is God. Allen Ginsberg: There will be no brain to understand God? *Prabhupāda: They will be so dull, so dull. It requires brain to understand. Just like in the Bhāgavata it is said that evaṁ prasanna*-manaso [SB 1.2.20], "fully joyful," bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, "by practice of bhakti-yoga." Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ, mukta-saṅgasya: "and freed from all material contamination." He can understand God. Do you think God is so cheap thing, anyone will understand? Because they do not understand, they present something nonsense: "God is like this. God is like that. God is like that." And when God Himself comes, that "Here I am, Kṛṣṇa," they don't accept it. They'll create their own God. *Allen Ginsberg: So Kalki comes at the end of the Kali*-yuga? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Allen Ginsberg: And is Kalki connected with the Kali*-yuga cycle? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kalki, yes. *Allen Ginsberg: So He would come at the end of Kali*-yuga to end the yuga. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then Satya*-yuga will begin. Allen Ginsberg: Then what begins? *Prabhupāda: Satya*-yuga. Allen Ginsberg: Which is? *Prabhupāda: Satya*-yuga, the pious. Satya-yuga. People will be pious, truthful, long-living. Allen Ginsberg: Are those people that remain or whatever new creation comes out of the destruction? Prabhupāda: Some of them will remain, some of them. It will not completely extinguish. Some of them will remain, pious. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. All miscreants will be killed, and out of them, there must be some pious... They remain. Allen Ginsberg: Do you think of this in terms of a historical event that will occur in the lifetime of your disciples? Prabhupāda: No. This will happen at least 400,000's of years after, at least. So by that time... Allen Ginsberg: They will go down, down, down for 400,000 years? Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time my disciples will be with Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Devotees: Haribol! Prabhupāda: And those who will not follow them, they will see the fun, how they are being killed. (laughter) Allen Ginsberg: 400,000 years. Will people still be chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in 400,000... Prabhupāda: No. Hare Kṛṣṇa will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: Ah. So what will be left? Prabhupāda: Nothing. Left will be I'll kill you and eat you, and you shall kill me. You shall eat me. That will be left. Allen Ginsberg: After ten thousand years? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There will be no grain, no milk, no sugar, no fruit. So I have to eat you, and you will have to eat me. Full facility for meat*-eating. (laughter) Full facility. Kṛṣṇa is very kind. He'll give you facility: "All right. Why cows and calves? You take your own son. Yes. Eat nicely." Just like serpents, snakes, they eat their own offsprings, tigers. So this will happen. Allen Ginsberg: Kali eats her own... Prabhupāda: Yes. And there will be no brain to understand, no preacher, nothing else. Go. Go to, to the dog. And then Kṛṣṇa will come: "All right, let me kill you so that you are saved." So... Allen Ginsberg: But you see it as actually a historical thing of ten thousand years for the chanting, of the diminishing chanting of... Prabhupāda: Yes. These are... Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think more people will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or fewer? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. More people. Now it will increase. Allen Ginsberg: Until? Prabhupāda: Up to ten thousand years. Allen Ginsberg: And then? Prabhupāda: Then diminish. Allen Ginsberg: So what is the purpose of right now, a world increase... Prabhupāda: People will take advantage of this up to ten thousand years. Then they will... Allen Ginsberg: So this is like the last rope, the last gasp. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. So the sooner we take to shelter, shelter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is better. Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, according to Vedic theory, when did this yuga begin? According to this Vedic theory... Or... This is śāstra? Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: When did this yuga...? Prabhupāda: Begin from this Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He introduced five hundred years ago, and it will continue now. *Hayagrīva: Kali*-yuga. *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga has begun five thousand years ago. Allen Ginsberg: Began five thousand years ago. *Kīrtanānanda: But this wave within Kali*-yuga, in which Hare Kṛṣṇa increases and then diminishes, is about ten thousand years and that began five hundred years ago. *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga, the duration of life of Kali-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that, we have passed five thousand years. There is balance, 427,000's of years. Out of that, ten thousand years is nothing. Allen Ginsberg: Where is all this? Prabhupāda: Vedic literature. Allen Ginsberg: What...? Prabhupāda: *Padma Purāṇa*, *Purāṇas*. Allen Ginsberg: Bhāgavata Purāṇa. Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata Purāṇa. *Allen Ginsberg: Has the detailed analysis of what goes on within the Kali*-yuga? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. I'll read you sometimes. Allen Ginsberg: There are translations of that. There are some translations of that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Twelfth Canto, the Kali*-yuga descriptions are there. Allen Ginsberg: Twelfth Canto. *Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto. And you will find that all the descriptions are coming to be true. Just like there is one statement, svīkaram eva udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." Now that is being done. And lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dharaṇam: "People will think that he has become very beautiful by keeping bunch of hairs." That is coming true. These are written there. All things are there in Bhāgavata history. Allen Ginsberg: Well, in the Bhāgavata Purāṇa is there also provision for the Caitanya cult? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam [SB 11.5.32]. We have given that in that book, our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. That is the first quotation there. Allen Ginsberg: So it's on this quotation from Bhāgavata Purāṇa that Caitanya built His system? *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is program, already presented, and He came to execute the program. Just like our meeting is already programmed. I come and execute it. That's all. That was previous. Clearly it is said, " 'In the Kali*-yuga the Supreme Lord comes as one who always chants the holy name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself, whose complexion is yellow.' Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, Fifth Chapter, 32nd verse." Allen Ginsberg: It's in there. Prabhupāda: So we have accepted Lord Caitanya as Kṛṣṇa not fanatically. There are evidence in *Mahābhārata*, in *Upaniṣads*, in *Purāṇas*, in Bhāgavata, in all Vedic scripture. Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, within this period of ten thousand years, only those who hear Kṛṣṇa's name and worship Kṛṣṇa by chanting... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Allen Ginsberg: So only those who practice Kṛṣṇa chanting can attain mokṣa. Prabhupāda: They become immediately liberated and go back to home, back to Godhead. Allen Ginsberg: And everybody else gets involved deeper and deeper in the yuga. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. So if anyone believes in the śāstras, they should take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is intelligence, to take advantage of authorized scriptures. You'll find in the Bhāgavata, There is a history of Candragupta, and "The Yavanas will become kings." That means English occupation, Mohammedan occupation. Everything is there. And Buddha's appearance, kikaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati. Kikaṭeṣu means in the Bihar province in India. Bhaviṣyati. Because Bhāgavata Purāṇa was written five thousand years ago, and Lord Buddha appeared about 2,600 years ago. So therefore it is stated, bhaviṣyati: "In future, just in the beginning of Kali*-yuga, Lord will appear as Buddha. His mother's name will be Añjana, and his business will be to cheat the atheists." Allen Ginsberg: To cheat the atheists. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sammohāya sūra*-dviṣam [SB 1.3.24]. Sūra-dviṣam means atheists. Surat. Sura-dvisam means those who are envious of Lord's devotees. That means atheist. So to bewilder them. What is that bewildering? This atheist class, they became so much absorbed in this animal-killing, they forgot everything about God. So they said, "What is God? We don't mind." So Lord Buddha says, "Yes, there is no God." Lord's philosophy is: "There is no God. Void. There is no God. But what I say, you follow. Yes. That's all right." But he is God. Is it not cheating? Allen Ginsberg: Yes, except that he claims to be neither God nor not God. Prabhupāda: Huh? But he never said that "I am God." He said there is no God. Allen Ginsberg: No. He doesn't say there's no God either. He says... Prabhupāda: That's it. That's anyway. Allen Ginsberg: He says, all conceptions of the existence of the self, as well as all conceptions of the nonexistence of the self, as well as all conceptions of the existence of a supreme self, as well as all conceptions of the nonexistence of the supreme self are equally arbitrary, being only conceptions. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a jugglery of words. So his principle was that they did not believe in God. So still the Buddhists says, "You don't believe in God." So but they are worshiping God, Lord Buddha. There are so many temples. In the same way, as we worship. So this is transcendental cheating. Allen Ginsberg: Transcendental cheating. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Just like sometimes father has to cheat his child. That is not cheating. That is welfare. But apparently it (looks) likes cheating. A child is insistent on some point. "Yes, yes. You are all right. But you do this like this. Yes, you are very good boy." Like that. But Vaiṣṇava, in Vaiṣṇava literature, in Vedic literature, he is God. The godless worshiping God in a different way. If there is nothing, why they should worship Buddha even? Allen Ginsberg: They don't... Well, strictly speaking, one does not worship Buddha. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they have many big, big temples in Burma and Japan. Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. But the practice in the temples is like empty. Prabhupāda: Maybe. That is a little different. That's all. But the temple worship and God worship is there. Allen Ginsberg: In, like in Zen Buddhism and in... Prabhupāda: That is later invention. Originally Lord Buddha, the statue of Lord Buddha, worshiped all, all over... Allen Ginsberg: Originally there was no Buddha. There was a wheel for the doctrine, for the dharma. There was a wheel, and then for a parasol. Prabhupāda: We see from historical, archeological evidences, all over... Allen Ginsberg: Then, when the Europeans came to India... Prabhupāda: It is not the question, Europeans. *Allen Ginsberg: Then they made a statue of a human*-faced Buddha. Guest (1): No, no. Buddha's temple was much before then. (indistinct) Allen Ginsberg: What it had as a... *Guest (1): No. Buddha was a yuga*-pracāra. That is very old, old. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very old. Guest (1): Because I saw the date, the posture of Lord Buddha when he died in a place, in a village, and I saw Buddha 20 feet long, gold Buddha statue, just the way he lied when he was dead. Allen Ginsberg: Pari nirvāṇa, yes. *Guest (1): Pari nirvāṇa pose, exactly. Twenty*-two feet he was, long. And it was made just after his death. Allen Ginsberg: What I had understood is that like the Jews and the Muslims, the original first few centuries of Buddhist meditation made use of a wheel for the dharma, or a parasol, or a bo tree as the image of Buddha, as at Sanchi. But no, but no... Guest (1): So long Buddha was living. After that, when Buddha died, they started making his statue, I think. Prabhupāda: yes. That is the archeological evidence. Archeological evidence is that Buddha's statues were original. Allen Ginsberg: The museum at Mathurā, I think, had the earliest human statues of Buddha, which are Greek nature. Guest (1): Because Candragupta's style... (Bengali) And they had many temple... Prabhupāda: No, Buddha is worshiped by statue. That is historical. That is historical fact. And there are many temples in Burma, China, and in Japan, all these Buddhist countries. But these Buddhist temples began not exactly after Buddha's disappearance. At least, after one thousand years. That is a fact. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. That's much later. Prabhupāda: Yes, much later. Because when Buddhism was driven out of India, then in Japan, China, Burma, the Buddhism flourished. Yes. That is after, almost after one thousand years. Otherwise whole India was Buddhist, whole India. Sometimes the Jagannātha Temple... They interpret. Actually it is not. They say that is also Buddhist. Allen Ginsberg: Which? Prabhupāda: Jagannātha Temple. Allen Ginsberg: I think I told you I had darśana with Jagannātha. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have? Allen Ginsberg: Yes. I got inside the temple. I was silent and made believe I was a mad, a madman. I had long hair, and I had pyjamas, white khadi, khadi cloth. Prabhupāda: Just like some Punjabi. Allen Ginsberg: So I went inside. And when anybody came to ask me anything, because I was afraid of opening my mouth... Prabhupāda: There is no enemy of a dumb. Bhuvar śatru nyāya. Allen Ginsberg: So I just kept my mouth closed and got down on my knees and touched their feet. So they all thought that I was crazy, and so they kept away from me. (laughter) So I got inside. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So you had a nice view of Jagannātha? Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Allen Ginsberg: It was very beautiful. I was there about..., with Peter also, about a week, a week there. Prabhupāda: So you saw once or several times? Allen Ginsberg: One time. I was afraid to go in and out many times. I figured I got away with it once, and I didn't want to... Prabhupāda: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple. Guest (1): (Bengali) Jesus Christ was there. Prabhupāda: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly. Guest (1): Vidyāpati. Prabhupāda: And he was discussing philosophical talks with them. Allen Ginsberg: According to the Aquarian Gospel, Christ was in Jagannātha Purī? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And he saw Ratha*-yātrā, and there is, name of Kṛṣṇa is there. *Allen Ginsberg: Ratha*-yātrā. *Prabhupāda: Ratha*-yātrā, as we are performing, San Francisco. So Lord Jesus Christ saw. Allen Ginsberg: We went to Mathurā also. Prabhupāda: Ah, Mathurā. Yes. Allen Ginsberg: For several days. And Vṛndāvana for about a week. Prabhupāda: You stayed there, Vṛndāvana? Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, about a week. Prabhupāda: Oh. You have seen Vṛndāvana nicely. Allen Ginsberg: Well, we went from one temple to another, sang, sat by the river, went to the little garden where the tree is. Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. Allen Ginsberg: And met two bhakti devotees. The one I mentioned, Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji and Bankibihari. Prabhupāda: Bankibihari? Allen Ginsberg: Yes. They translate from Mīrābhai. Prabhupāda: Oh. English. *Allen Ginsberg: Into English. Good translations. Good translations. They were published in the Bhakti*-vidya-bhavan series. In that series. They have four or five books. Prabhupāda: Oh. They have five books they have written? Allen Ginsberg: One Sufis, Yogis, Saints, poets like Muktesvara. And then another of Mīrā. Two volumes of Mīrā with a life of Mīrā. And then one on the Kumbhamela, a book on the Kumbhamela. Prabhupāda: They are good scholars. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Good scholars. They know Blake also. They know English. Prabhupāda: Mataji? Allen Ginsberg: Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji. Guest (1): Mathurā, I think this Mātājī lives so(?). Allen Ginsberg: In India. Prabhupāda: No. She is not. She does not... Allen Ginsberg: But in Vṛndāvana. Guest (1): In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana(?). In which year you have been in Vṛndāvana? Allen Ginsberg: Which year? 1962. Prabhupāda: Oh. At that time I was there. Allen Ginsberg: We probably passed on the street. (laughs) You were there then? '62. Prabhupāda: I left Vṛndāvana 1965. From 1956 I am there, I was there. Allen Ginsberg: I would like to go and live for a while and to stay. I liked it when I was there. It would be a good place to live. Hayagrīva: You're going next year? Allen Ginsberg: I think pretty soon I'm going to be going back. Yeah. I have to stabilize the farm I'm on. Hayagrīva: Good luck. Allen Ginsberg: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio Prabhupāda: ...six or seven years old, my father was worshiping, so I wanted to imitate. I asked him that "Give me Deity." So he gave me. Allen Ginsberg: Did you wash them and play with them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Washed, changed dress. Allen Ginsberg: Fed them. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Allen Ginsberg: Do you still? Do you still wash them and feed them and play with them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now my disciples I have... (laughs) At home I was doing that. Allen Ginsberg: What are you reading? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. This is original Sanskrit. There are eight commentaries by big, big stalwart scholars. Allen Ginsberg: These are the commentaries? And this is the text? Prabhupāda: This is text. *Allen Ginsberg: What does the Sanskrit sound like? Is Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam to be chanted? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like... I will read some portion. (chants a few verses, "tasmai tubhyāṁ bhagavate vāsudevāya vedasi" to "vāsudevāya śantāya yadunām pataye namaḥ") Like this. Allen Ginsberg: It's certainly beautiful prosody. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, the Sanskrit poetry writing is very difficult. They have got rhetoric system. So many words should be first, so many words, second. You cannot deviate. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then the analogy and metaphor should be like that. Nothing should be twice repeated. So there is Sāhitya*-ratna in Sanskrit, Sāhitya-ratna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu defeated one great scholar simply by little mistake. Yes. Keśava Kāśmīrī. Keśava Kāśmīrī was great scholar, and Sanskrit great scholar means he must fluently speak in Sanskrit verses everything. Allen Ginsberg: Everything he says must be done in perfect Sanskrit verses? Prabhupāda: Oh, that is... Yes. That is Sanskrit scholar. Not in prose. He'll go on composing verses. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu at that time was sixteen years old boy, but He was very learned logician. So the Keśava Kāśmīrī, he was traveling all over India by, I mean to say, competing other paṇḍitas, other learned scholars. So he, everywhere he was victorious. So he came to Navadvīpa. And in those days Navadvīpa and Benares and Udipi and Kashmir, four, five places, were very scholarly. Allen Ginsberg: I have been to Birbhum. Prabhupāda: Birbhum. Allen Ginsberg: I've been through Birbhum, yes. Navadvīpa also. *Prabhupāda: So when he came to Navadvīpa, that was the... In all other places he was victorious. So all the Navadvīpa paṇḍitas, they conferred that "Nimāi Paṇḍita should be forwarded to talk with him. And if he is defeated by Nimāi Paṇḍita, then we'll become victorious because a boy has defeated him. But if Nimāi Paṇḍita becomes defeated, then we'll get another chance: 'No, you have defeated boy. Let us come.' " In this way they make. So Keśava Kāśmīrī was informed that first of all he'll have to talk with Nimāi Paṇḍita. So one day Nimāi Paṇḍita, boy Nimāi Paṇḍita, was talking with his disciples, students. And Keśava Kāśmīrī was strolling on the Ganges side. So he heard that this boy is Nimāi Paṇḍita. "Oh, I will have to talk with Him? He is a boy." So he went there, and when He was acquainted that Keśava Kāśmīrī..., "Oh, please come down, sit." So Nimāi Paṇḍita said that "I have heard that you are so learned scholar. Now we are on the Ganges side. You can chant the glorification of mother Ganges. She may hear and enjoy." So he was very learned scholar. Immediately he composed hundred verses, one hundred. And fluent, very fluently he went on. Then, out of that one hundred verses, in the sixty*-fourth verse there was some poetic discrepancies. The word was bhavānī-bhārtā. Bhavānī means the wife of Bhava. Lord Śiva is called Bhava. Lord Brahmā is called Aja, and Lord Śiva is called Bhava. Bhava means "from whom everything is born." Lord Śiva is the father of this Bhava. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "In the sixty-fourth verse you have stated, bhavānī-bhārtā. Bhavānī means the husband of... Bhavānī means the wife of Bhava, Lord Śiva. So it is known that she has husband. Then why you say bhārtā, again 'husband'?" He was learned scholar. He could understand, "Yes." Dvir-ukti-dośa. This is called dvir-ukti-dośa, repeating twice one thing. Dvir-ukti-dośa. That is dośa. Dośa means fault. Allen Ginsberg: Means? *Prabhupāda: Dośa. In Sanskrit word it is called dvir*-ukti-dośa. Dvi means two. Rukti means utterance. And dośa means fault. Allen Ginsberg: Fault. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Fault. Yes. So dvir*-ukti-dośa. So he was conscious. Then he said, "Well, I understand that you are a student of grammar. How do you detect this, this literary discrepancies?" "No. I am student. I am your student. I do not pose. I am not scholar, but I have heard this is told like that. From other scholars I have heard." "How could You remember? I cited one hundred verses and how do You remember the sixty-fourth verses?" "Oh, I can repeat the whole verses." Allen Ginsberg: (laughs) Uh huh. Prabhupāda: "How is that, that you can repeat? How is that?" "Oh, that is grace of mother Sarasvatī. Just like you can compose a hundred verses within a few minutes, I can, whatever you say, I can remember immediately." Formerly that was the system of understanding *Vedas*, śruti, simply by hearing. Once they hear from the spiritual master, they will remember. The memory was so sharp. Therefore this brahmacārī system is so nice. They can enhance their memorizing power, brahmacārī. Allen Ginsberg: Did Caitanya, did Lord Caitanya worship Sarasvatī? No. Prabhupāda: No. He was Vaiṣṇava. But every demigod is worshiped. It is not that one should neglect... Allen Ginsberg: Oh, respect. He respected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: I know one mantra in Bengali to Sarasvatī. Jaya jaya devī jaya jara sari, kuchuku viśori mukta vihārī vīra nandita pulake vihati bhagavati... (?) (etc) *Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. Sarasvatī*-stotra, yes. Students are supposed to offer stotras, students specially. Allen Ginsberg: So that's a mantra for students, for Sarasvatī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vidya, the goddess of learning, Sarasvatī. In our childhood we used to worship Sarasvatī: "Please, mother, give me pass this examination." That was our prayer. So other students, they laughed very loudly. They thought that "Caitanya has come out very victorious within a second." He said, "No. Stop." Then He stopped all these talkings, and... "So you are so... I have to talk with you. You are very learned." Ordinary formalities. Then he went away. And he was also great worshiper of mother Sarasvatī. Then he began to pray to Sarasvatī, "Mother Sarasvatī, by your grace I have become victorious in so many places. And what is this, that I am defeated by a boy who is a grammar student?" So he began to pray, and mother Sarasvatī informed her (him) that "He is God, my husband. So you speak means I speak. So how can I defeat my husband? That is not..." (knock at door) Come on. Come on. (someone enters) Yes, come. Yes. You can put there. (someone offers obeisances) Put there. All right. Put there. That's all. Very good. So then he further did not attempt to talk with Him. He went away, and the mother Sarasvatī advised him that "You surrender unto Him. That will be your nice role. Yes." So later on, he became a great devotee of Lord Caitanya, Keśava Kāśmīrī. Allen Ginsberg: Keśav... Prabhupāda: Keśava Kāśmīrī. Allen Ginsberg: Keśava Kāśmīrī, "Keśava from Kashmir." *Prabhupāda: Yes. His name was Paṇḍita Keśava, and because he belonged to Kasmir province. He was Nimbārka*-sampradāya Vaiṣṇava. There are four sampradāyas. The Vaiṣṇava devotees, they are coming one from Lord Brahmā, and one from Lakṣmī. They are called Śrī-sampradāya. And those who are coming from Brahmā, they are called Brahma-sampra... And one from Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is also great devotee. Out of twelve great authorities, Lord Śiva is one. Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, and Nārada. Svayaṁbhur nāradaḥ śaṁbhuḥ [SB 6.3.20]. Svayaṁbhuḥ means Lord Brahmā. Allen Ginsberg: Ah, Śaṁbhu. *Prabhupāda: Svayaṁbhuḥ. Svayaṁbhuḥ means "self*-born." Allen Ginsberg: Self? *Prabhupāda: "Self*-born." He is not born of ordinary mother and father. There was a lotus from the Viṣṇu, and in that lotus he was born. Therefore he is called Svayaṁbhuḥ, "self-born." *Allen Ginsberg: I knew a Naga sādhu in Menakanika Ghāṭa named Śaṁbhu*-bhakti Baba. Prabhupāda: Śaṁbhu is another name of Lord Śiva, Śaṁbhu. Svayaṁbhur nāradaḥ śaṁbhuḥ [SB 6.3.20]. He is called Svayaṁbhuḥ, and Śiva is called Śaṁbhu. Vaiṣṇavānām yathā śaṁbhuḥ. Svayaṁbhur nāradaḥ śaṁbhuḥ kumārāḥ kapilo manuḥ [SB 6.3.20]. Kumārāḥ. There is a sampradāya from Kumāra, four Kumāras, brahmacārīs. They were sons of Brahmā. When they were born, Lord Brahmā said that "You now make, marry and produce. We want population." In the creation, in the beginning. So they refused. "Oh, we are not going to marry. We shall remain brahmacārī, devotee." Then Lord Brahmā was angry. "Oh, you are refusing your father's order?" So from when he was angry, his eyes became red. From that, Śiva was born. Therefore his name is Rudra. Rudra means anger. So when Lord Śiva becomes angry, the whole thing is finished. Allen Ginsberg: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Svayaṁbhur nāradaḥ śaṁbhuḥ kumārāḥ kapilaḥ [SB 6.3.20]. Kapila, Lord Kapila, the propounder of Sāṅkhya philosophy, he is also accepted as incarnation of God, Kapila. And Manu. Manu, father of mankind, who has given the Manu*-saṁhitā, lawbook. In that law it is stated, na strīyāṁ svatantratam arhati: "Woman does not deserve independence." Manu has given this. Yes. This is Manu-smṛti. So Vedic culture means to follow the regulative principle. Allen Ginsberg: So from Manu to Keśava Kāśmīrī is... *Prabhupāda: No, no. I am speaking the original authorities. So this Kumāra*-sampradāya, he belonged, this Keśava Kāśmīrī, Kumāra-sampradāya. Now they are known as Rāmānuja, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, and Nimbārka. You have been in Vṛndāvana. You have seen the temple of Bankibihārī? Allen Ginsberg: No. I don't remember. I didn't know the names of the places I saw. Prabhupāda: But you have seen the temples? Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, I went through all the temples I could find. But I didn't know enough to know what stories were associated with the temples or what were the names. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, worship is the same, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Only Rāmānuja-sampradāya, they worship Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa because it is sampradāya from Lakṣmī, so they worship... Allen Ginsberg: Nārāyaṇa is another name for Śiva? Prabhupāda: No. Nārāyaṇa is Viṣṇu. That is Kṛṣṇa's expansion. Allen Ginsberg: According to Caitanya, Viṣṇu is an expansion of... Prabhupāda: Of Kṛṣṇa. Allen Ginsberg: Of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmādi*-mūrtiśu... In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated. Rāmādi-murttisu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatārān akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ. Kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ. Svayaṁ means the Supreme Person. Samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo. Parama means the Supreme; *pumān means the puruṣa, the male. God is male. God is not female. The conception of female God, that is not authorized. Paramaḥ pumān yo. So female is prakṛti, nature. Parasya śaktīr vividhaiva... Śaktī. So He has got many energies. The whole thing is manifested by energy, multi*-energies. Viṣṇu-śaktīḥ parā prokta [Cc. Madhya 6.154]. Viṣṇu, the energy of Viṣṇu, is transcendental, spiritual. Kṣetrajñākhya tathā para. As also this kṣetrajñā-śaktī, marginal potency, that is also transcendental, that is living entities. They are also transcendental. They are not material. Avidyā-karma-saṅga anya tṛtīya-śaktīr iśyate. Another śaktī, another energy, is there. That is avidyā, darkness. This is material energy. So living entity is originally spiritual, transcendental, as good as Kṛṣṇa's personal energy. But now they are covered by this material energy. Allen Ginsberg: How did the material covering begin? Prabhupāda: Begin? Allen Ginsberg: As the material shadow. How did we fall into that? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is very natural. Just like... (knock on door) Come on. Because jīva, although parā śaktī, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Kṛṣṇa... In the spiritual world Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, and all others, they are enjoyed. Predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, "The Lord is predominator. We have to serve." When this service attitude is impaired, that "Why serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not ourself?" that is māyā. Then he falls down in the material energy. There is no scope... Just like in the government system, there is no scope of freedom. You have to act according to government state laws. So long you are agreement, then you are free. If you disagree, then you are placed within the prison house. Similarly, jīva, independent, not fully independent, but they have got. Because part and part of God, therefore that independence quality is there. So when that independence quality is misused, then his place is in the material world. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāṅchā kare. When we forget Kṛṣṇa and try to lord it over something... And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. When we try to imitate His lordship, then our place is in the material world. We are given freedom, "All right, you lord it over here." So here every living entity is trying to lord it over, competition. I am trying individualwise, nationwise. Everyone is trying to lord it over. That is material existence. And when he comes to his senses, jñānavān, that "I am falsely trying to lord it over. Rather, I am becoming implicated with material energy," when he comes to that, then he surrenders. Then again his liberated life begins. That is the whole process of spiritual life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya māṁ ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Don't manufacture ways and means, falsely trying to lord it over. That will... You'll not be happy because you cannot lord it over the material nature. It is impossible. If we try to violate the government laws, is it possible for me? No. If I am to live as a citizen, it is not possible for me. Then I'll implicate more and more. This is crude example. Similarly, we are part and parcel of the Supreme. Just like there is a story, Udarendriyānām. Hitopadeśa. You heard the name of Hitopadeśa? Allen Ginsberg: No. *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu*-saha...(?) From Hitopadeśa, they say, Aesop's Fables was translated. Aesop's Fables. There are stories like that. One dog is speaking to another monkey, monkey is... Like that. Hitopadeśa. Allen Ginsberg: Jataka Tales. I know in the Buddhist, Jataka Tales. Prabhupāda: So there is a story, Udarendriyānām. Udara means this belly, and indriya, the senses, hands, legs, means. So all these senses, they conferred that "We are working day and night, and this rascal is eating simply. So we shall noncooperate. We shall not work." That's all right. Resolution was passed. So they stopped working. And next meeting they saw that "We are becoming weak. Why?" Allen Ginsberg: The hand wasn't bringing food to the mouth. Prabhupāda: Then they come to their senses. "Oh, we have to feed this rascal belly. Otherwise we become weak." Similarly... What is this position? These hands and legs are parts anbd parcels of the whole. Similarly, the whole Brahman, Absolute, we are all parts and parcels. So we shall cooperate in satisfying Him. Then automatically we become satisfied. If we noncooperate, then we suffer. Allen Ginsberg: Well, if you call Brahmā the Absolute, how do you make a distinction between Brahmā and Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: That I explained the other day, that the sunshine, the sun globe, and the sun*-god. Allen Ginsberg: Ah, yes. *Prabhupāda: Apparently the sunshine appears to be very, very big, but it is concentrated in sun globe. And when you enter the sun globe, it is concentrated in sun*-god. Allen Ginsberg: Where is the origin of this image of the sun? Where is the origin of this image of the sun? Is this a Vedic śāstric explanation? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is śāstric information. He is incarnation of Nārāyaṇa, Sūrya*-nārāyaṇa. He is powerful. He is driving in four horses. He has got chariot of four horses and very powerful. Yac cakṣur eśa savita. Savita, his name is Savita. The Gāyatrī mantra is oṁ bhur bhuvaḥ svāḥ tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi. That is worshiping the sun-god. Allen Ginsberg: Do you use Gāyatrī mantra also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: I know some of it. Oṁ bhur... Prabhupāda: Yes. Oṁ bhur bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi dhiyo yo naḥ pracodayāt. This Gāyatrī, this is called. *Allen Ginsberg: In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, "Among poetic meters, I am Gāyatrī." Prabhupāda: Yes. Gāyatrī is the origin of Vedic knowledge. Without Gāyatrī, nobody is accepted as competent to study. That is the beginning, spiritual master, dvija, second birth. First birth by the father and mother, second birth by the spiritual master, father, and mother, Gāyatrī. Allen Ginsberg: Do you teach Gāyatrī mantra to your disciples also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not in the beginning. When they are little advanced. Śyāma dasi: Prabhupāda, can you tell me what you want for prasādam today? Prabhupāda: Yes. The same. Śyāma dasi: Eggplant or string beans? Prabhupāda: Whatever you like. You give me four capātīs, little rice, and little vegetable. That's all. Don't put much butter, ghee. Yes. Śyāma dasi: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Old age, we cannot now digest too much butter. That creates air. Although at night I don't take anything. Once I eat. And in the morning I take little fruits. That's all. Hayagrīva: Mr. Ginsberg was telling me downstairs that the President is going to come to Ohio State. Allen Ginsberg: Nixon. Hayagrīva: Nixon? President Nixon? Allen Ginsberg: In one month for the graduation. Hayagrīva: He told the students to chant... Allen Ginsberg: Hare Kṛṣṇa to Nixon. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Hayagrīva: So that he would hear it when he was coming by. Prabhupāda: Very good. Allen Ginsberg: Well, I'll tell you my feeling was is I was thinking about it from a lot of different angles. I was thinking about it from a lot of different viewpoints. One is that there is a lot of resentment of the President and of the government here from the young people who are going to be sent to war or who don't like the war. There is likely to be conflict here when the President comes. One reason this place was picked for the President to come was that it is relatively..., many, many police around here, this part, police state, very heavy, so that it would be dangerous to show aggression and to show real conflict. But there is all that energy that wants to express itself, and basically peaceful energy. So what I suggested was that they greet him by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa as a way of manifesting... Prabhupāda: Very good. Very good suggestion. Yes. Allen Ginsberg: I think it will make sense, because now there are a lot of students who know the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So they might do it. Prabhupāda: Yes. When he is coming? Allen Ginsberg: One month from now. May, or is it June? Hayagrīva: Commencement. Allen Ginsberg: Commencement. The graduation. Prabhupāda: In some lecture he said that "I want to meet some religious heads." And so one of my girl students in San Francisco, she is very educated. She wrote one letter to Nixon. And I have got the copy, that "Swamiji is spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is being appreciated by the younger section. So Swamiji will be glad to see you if you make some appointment." But he never replied. Allen Ginsberg: Well, this university he chose because it's supposed to be typical of America. So if in this typical university the young people greet him by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then he may well invite you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No. I came here with this idea, that in America they are in need of these things, and they are wanting something substantial. So if some is given... Of course, I am doing my bit as far as possible. But if some organized things are done like government help or people help, then this movement can be pushed further nicely. Otherwise slowly it will go on, as Kṛṣṇa desires. Hayagrīva: Mr. Ginsberg said he also chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa for Robert Kennedy before he died. Allen Ginsberg: I think I told you about that, didn't I? Prabhupāda: Yes. You told me in San Francisco. Yes. *Allen Ginsberg: So he heard two rounds of it. Okay. I have to take a plane today to a Catholic college in New York State. I'll be going back to New York at one o'clock, so I have to go back and pack and say good*-bye to the students. It was a pleasure to see you here, lovely. So maybe we'll do it again in New York. Prabhupāda: Yes. Allen Ginsberg: I'll call. Thank you for your words and thank you for letting me join you. Prabhupāda: My... You are already chanting. But if we do together, it will be very nice. Allen Ginsberg: So let's do something together in New York City this summer. I'm free all summer, so it's at your convenience this time 'cause I'll be free. I don't have any dates or appointments. So if you just let me know maybe two weeks or somebody let me know a few weeks in advance, then I can come down from the farm, spend a day with you and then we chant. I'd be happy to do that. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give him that garland. (end) Meeting with Devotees -- June 9, 1969, New Vrindaban *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya [Cc. Ādi 5.142]. (baby making noises) (aside:) He will disturb. Īśvara. Īśvara means master or the controller. Actually only Kṛṣṇa is master. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, or incarnation of Viṣṇu, all of them are, in one sense, even Rādhārāṇī, all are servants. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya. So in that sense, in this New Vrindaban the master is Kṛṣṇa, and we are all servants. But there are division of duties of the servants, and they should discharge. Just like in our propagation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there are certain duties entrusted to certain devotee, and if he faithfully carries out that duty, that is his perfection. The spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa, and the duty allotted by him to a certain person, that should be his execution of spiritual duties. So this New Vrindaban, master is Kṛṣṇa. Now we should specifically divide duties amongst ourselves and discharge such duties faithfully. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, as you are growing up to now, the system and the prescription is very nicely being conducted. And this will help us more and more progress. So in this meeting I think we should allot different kinds of duties to different persons and execute. So you say something. [break] ...temple. I don't think it can take more than two hours. Kīrtanānanda: We are done ārati and kīrtana by seven o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then the respective duty can be discharged in two, three hours. That's all. Seven to ten. After taking your breakfast you work up to ten. Then you have got enough time. Kīrtanānanda: Time for what? *Prabhupāda: Everyone has to make his own routine work, and for chanting and reading and Bhagavad*-gītā he requires, say, two to three hours. So we have got twenty-four hours at our disposal. Out of that, six hours or seven hours for sleeping. So still you have got seventeen hours. And three hours devote for chanting and reading. Still you have got fourteen hours. Kīrtanānanda: But we devote at least five hours to ārati and kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Oh. Satyabhāmā: Another hour and a half or two hours to prasādam. Śyāma: Eating? Satyabhāmā: Yes. To eating prasādam. Prabhupāda: Two hours for eating? Paramānanda: Eating and taking rest. Satyabhāmā: Well, noon prasādam, morning prasādam, milk in the evening. Paramānanda: Morning and evening, half hour, noon, one hour. Hayagrīva: Bathing, bathing takes an hour. Prabhupāda: So you want to stop chanting and reading? Satyabhāmā: No. No. (laughs) Kīrtanānanda: We don't want to stop chanting. I don't want to. That's not the proposal. The proposal was... Satyabhāmā: Which comes first? If... The work seems to have to be done, but the... Prabhupāda: You can forego your sleeping and eating. Satyabhāmā: Haribol. *Prabhupāda: The Gosvāmīs were doing like that. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **. They were discharging their duties, and if sometimes they still could not finish the chanting, they would forego their eating and sleeping. Eating and sleeping, say, seven to nine hours. Then we have to sacrifice our sleeping and eating. Paramānanda: But the Gosvāmīs, they didn't swing axes all day, did they? Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) Paramānanda: They didn't do hard physical work. *Prabhupāda: No, they were writing books. So they were writing. You have to manage. You see? How can I suggest, "You can do this, you can do this"? Everyone has to do. Just like I do my work according to my own routine, you see, similarly, one has to... But if sometimes, by chance, you do not get any time for reading Bhagavad*-gītā, that does not harm very much because you are already engaged in Bhagavad-gītā. Any duty here in New Vrindaban... Just like Kṛṣṇa was inducing Arjuna to fight. That fighting was also within the program of this devotional service. Similarly, anything working within this New Vrindaban, that is also counted reading Bhagavad-gītā. So in some day if you don't find, read Bhagavad-gītā, but that chanting must be finished. That is very essential. Hayagrīva: Can one chant when working? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Chanting is the basic standing of our life. Kīrtanānanda: I think here, as I look at it, we're spending about five hours a day in ārati and kīrtana, which, I think, is really good because I think that is the heart of Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the life of Vṛndāvana. Kīrtanānanda: So I don't want to sacrifice that for anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be... Kīrtanānanda: That must be there. That's the heart. *Prabhupāda: You can forego even reading Bhagavad*-gītā, but that must be continued. Kīrtanānanda: But now, right now, of course, this is not time for pruning, but I'd like to prune to show people that we really have something. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: It would be nice for our community. It would be nice for the people who visit us so that they'd be able to see that "Ah, they're able to carry on with their gardening." Prabhupāda: No. You also require some fruits for your existence also. Kṛṣṇa will like it. Kīrtanānanda: Actually it will help morale if they just have a little better prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. And now we require some assistants, more assistants. Yes. So Kṛṣṇa will send. Kṛṣṇa will send gradually. You'll have more men here, and engage them. Devotee 1: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: Yes? Devotee 1: This couple who are staying here now with their child, are they going to stay? Kīrtanānanda: Not that I know of. Satyabhāmā: Yes. They want to go back to Athens and get their things and then come back here and stay. [break] Prabhupāda: ...in charge of that particular department? Why it, supervision? But casual supervision can be made. [break] Kīrtanānanda: ...after that? Or does that work better? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Prasādam is finished at two? Then up to four they are free. Or up to...? No. Kīrtanānanda: The way it works out, the afternoon, they never seem to get much done anyway. There's a lot of frustration. Because sometimes I have a feeling like it's a lot of time being wasted, but still it seems very difficult because you figure... Well, suppose prasādam were offered at two and you didn't finish up until about three. And then they rest until four. By the time they bathe and everything it's time to start getting ready for kīrtana. Hayagrīva: We finished ārati and kīrtana by six o'clock this morning. That means that the early morning prasādam must be ready at six o'clock so we finish by seven and then work from seven to eight to nine to ten to eleven to twelve to one to two. That's eight hours' hard work in the morning. And then the rest of the afternoon off. Kīrtanānanda: That's all right. Hayagrīva: But we should get at least eight hours' hard work in on the grounds. Satyabhāmā: Can the men do that, eight hours' hard work like that without a break? Hayagrīva: Sure. I could. Paramānanda: That is not enough time, though, in the afternoon for chanting. Hayagrīva: What do you mean? The whole afternoon... Prabhupāda: That is nice, that in the morning you work and after prasādam you are at ease, take rest or read or whatever you like. Hayagrīva: There's plenty of time. From two o'clock until bedtime. That's eight hours. From two to ten. You can't chant sixteen rounds in eight hours? Paramānanda: Well, I have to begin my duties with the cow at five o'clock. So we'll be finishing prasādam and rest at about four o'clock. That leaves me one hour, which is filled up with other odd chores. Hayagrīva: Well, then, if you have to take... You have an extra hour you have to work in the afternoon. You have an extra hour? Satyabhāmā: Two hours. Kīrtanānanda: Since you milk the cows in the evening like that, you could take an hour or so off early. That would be all right. Hayagrīva: Then you can take off at one. If you put in an hour in the afternoon with the cow, then take off an hour from one to two to chant. Satyabhāmā: Then we have from seven to eight. Kīrtanānanda: We'll try it that way. Hayagrīva: Sometimes we're so slow getting started in the morning. *Paramānanda: It's not enough time because..., that is, if the morning, the entire morning, is to be allotted to the major tasks. 'Cause the thing is, I find, that there are many, many time*-consuming little chores to be done, that without which New Vrindaban would be a mess. There are so many little tasks to be done. [break] Hayagrīva: I'm president. Prabhupāda: You are the president. And who is secretary? Hayagrīva: Śyāma dāsī is secretary. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hayagrīva: Śyāma dāsī. Prabhupāda: Śyāma dāsī, secretary. And who is treasurer? Hayagrīva: Hṛṣīkeśa. Prabhupāda: Hṛṣīkeśa. And what is Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja's position? Hayagrīva: He is maṭha commander? Devotee 1: Prime minister. Śyāma: Advisor. Advisor? Hayagrīva: General advisor, maṭha commander. Prabhupāda: The maṭha commander... Of course, so far the management of the New Vrindaban affairs is concerned, that is within maṭha commander's jurisdiction? Hayagrīva: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Maṭha commander means the, everything of that place under his command. Hayagrīva: That's not good. Then advisor is better. Advisor would be better. Prabhupāda: Advisor means his advice will be final? Hayagrīva: Advice final? That means the advice would be depending on the president. Prabhupāda: Confirmed by the president. So honorary advisor. Advice gratis? Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Chuckling) No. Another thing is that, as I suggested, that Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, being sannyāsī, he should be given the top post to give honor to the position of a sannyāsī. Otherwise in our society there is no meaning of a sannyāsī. Hayagrīva: So you want him to be president? Prabhupāda: I think he should be, like that. You become secretary, and Śyāma dāsī become assistant secretary. Of course, everything should be decided in a meeting, and president may be have as a casting vote, but the decision of the meeting will be actually the decision. Not that president autocracy, no. Or he may be president, you may be vice president and others, Śyāma dāsī, secretary, and treasurer he is. From sampradāya point of view, sannyāsī has to be given the top post. Do you think he will overrule you? (Laughs) Hayagrīva: Well, I have to make one request on that. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hayagrīva: That I not stay here. Prabhupāda: You do not stay here? Hayagrīva: Yes. I don't want to stay. Prabhupāda: Unless you become president? Hayagrīva: Unless I am in charge, I don't want to stay. I mean there are too many responsibilities that I've already assumed, and not to have the decisions as to what to do with the vehicles, what to do with this, what to do with that, I'd rather not have any part of it. Prabhupāda: No, anyone who can manage everything, he should be in charge of the whole thing. Hayagrīva: Well, factually he's in charge. Actually we very seldom have any disagreements on things. Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. Then you remain president. And let him become vice president. That will be all right? In case of your absence he will preside in the meeting. Will that be all right? Hayagrīva: No, that's all right as long as I have final decision in certain matters, as to what to do with my vehicles, what to do with this and what to do with that. Prabhupāda: No, you will hold meeting and decide in that meeting. If you form a committee, then whatever you do, something serious, you should consult the committee and do it. Hayagrīva: Well, you make the final decision. You can have anybody you want in charge here. I just make a request, personal request, that I not stay here. That's all. So I mean you can put anybody you want in charge. What I have given of the place is yours. I don't even care to have it. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is not a good proposal. Then where you want to stay? Hayagrīva: I'd like to go to India. Well, maybe I could travel with you. That would be nice. Prabhupāda: No. That is not good idea. You have started this New Vrindaban. You must finish it. So you must be in charge of this place. We have to do so many things. So... Hayagrīva: What about... Why can't two people be in charge? Why can't we both...? Prabhupāda: No. Then he will work as vice president? Or what do you want? Temple command? Hayagrīva: I don't know. The title doesn't make any difference. The title doesn't matter. It's just that we agree on basic issues which I think that we should agree on, not that an issue comes up, and I have one idea about, and he says, "No. I want it this way," and I can't do anything about it. For instance, say I don't want to cut down the tree there, and he says the tree must be cut down. That doesn't leave me anywhere. See? That leaves me to say, well... He can pull rank on me, which is something... I mean I'd just as soon not be involved. Prabhupāda: So you disagree in every point? Hayagrīva: Not every point. We don't often disagree. But I might want this tree to be left here. Prabhupāda: Or what you decide and he must disagree that? Whatever you decide and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja must disagree with that point? Is that the situation? Hayagrīva: That's not necessarily so. Prabhupāda: But suppose if Kīrtanānanda says, "Then I'll leave this place," then what will be the situation? As you say that "Unless I am in charge, I leave this place," similarly, if he says that "If I am not in charge, then I will leave this place," so would you like that he should leave this place? Hayagrīva: No. Prabhupāda: Then both of you are required. Then how you can say that "I'll leave this place," how he can say he'll leave? You must jointly work because both of you, you have started this New Vrindaban, and you have to work jointly. There may be sometimes disagreement, but you should settle up. Otherwise how you can make progress? He's a sannyāsī. He has got the right to travel. That is his business. He can go and preach. That is actually his business. His business is not to stay any place. Just like I am also; in this old age I am traveling, parivrājaka. So if you think that you can do without him, then he can travel and sometimes he may come here. Hayagrīva: Well, I think he's necessary here. Definitely we need him. Prabhupāda: So if his presence is necessary, then he is a sannyāsī; he should be given some responsible post. And if he is not necessary, then his main business is to go. Now, if I... I am getting older. If he travels all over the centers and sees as superintendent what things are going on, that will be also nice. And in my absence he can deliver speech and in that way he can get experience. Now he went to North Carolina. He did nicely. So... I know that both of you are required here to develop this center. Not that if you say, "I go," and if he says he goes, then this place, the advancement which is progressing, this will be stopped. It is now in the nascent stage. You should not neglect now. You should work conjointly. Hayagrīva: Well, what do you want to do, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have no preference at all. Kīrtanānanda: No. Hayagrīva: He says he has no preference at all. Prabhupāda: So... But you require his assistance also. Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I think... Then the difficulty is that you say that whatever you decide, he says no? Hayagrīva: If I don't want this tree to be cut down and he says, "Cut down the tree," does the tree get cut down? That's what I want to know. I say, "I want this tree to stay here." He says, "We want to burn it for firewood." Now does the tree stay or does it go? Prabhupāda: Well, if... This deposition is very difficult to solve. (laughing) You want to stay, and he wants to burn it. (laughing) Hayagrīva: Yes. I mean it will come down to something very basic like this, something very simple. Now you said that according to you it should be burned. According to you... If the president is in charge, then if he says to cut it down, it gets cut down. Prabhupāda: No. The committee. The majority decision will be... Hayagrīva: That's democracy. That's democracy. That's no good. Prabhupāda: Democracy? This is the age of... Hayagrīva: I thought you said we should have enlightened monarchy. Prabhupāda: No. Monarchy is out of date now. When you form a committee... But what can I say? If you disagree in that way, then... If you have to live together, you have to work together; if you disagree in that way, it will be a difficult job. Hayagrīva: Well, I don't care. I'll leave it up to you then. I'll leave it up to you. You can do what you want. Prabhupāda: No... You... My... I have explained. He is... As a sannyāsī, he should live everywhere temporarily just like I live temporarily. Aniketa. A sannyāsī should not have a permanent place. Anywhere he goes, temporary. So because you think that his service is required, then he should remain here. Otherwise, as he has accepted sannyāsa order, he should travel, go and preach. And especially nowadays, I cannot go everywhere. He can go, and he can recruit members. He can make propaganda of New Vrindaban to many persons, to the, I mean to say, foundations. As I have suggested, make pamphlet. So he can do outside work very nicely for developing Vṛndāvana. Hayagrīva: How much of his time do you think should be spent doing this? Prabhupāda: Which one? Hayagrīva: Preaching and traveling. Prabhupāda: He should always preach and travel. Always. There is immense field here. He should convince people that we are developing such centers. And you make a nice literature, picture. You go. He is educated. He is intelligent. He has studied our philosophy. He can go and speak. Hayagrīva: But he shouldn't stay here at all. Prabhupāda: No. He can come. He stay for some time and go, in that way. That... When he comes here you take his advice, what to do, and then you execute in that way. The final is yourself, whatever you do. He will come and... Now, for developing this center we must require so many things. So he can do the outside work. Hayagrīva: Well, I mean I don't care that much. If you want to put him in charge... Prabhupāda: That is... No. So far, if you ask my advice, he should do that work, outside propaganda, preaching. But as you say that his presence is required, therefore I say he may remain here. Otherwise, to remain here is not his duty as a sannyāsī. That is actually your duty, to organize the local management and everything. And his duty is outside work, preaching. He may have one assistant, and he can travel. He can educate your countrymen that "Here is a nice thing we are developing. Please come and cooperate." Invite him, and when he comes you receive him and give him good reception. In this way you have to make propaganda, outside and inside. Just like Kṛṣṇa is making outside and inside propaganda. Inside He is Supersoul; *outside He is spiritual master to reclaim these fallen souls. Similarly, we should also work outside*-inside. And for making outside propaganda, I think he will be the best man. Suppose if he goes to New York, stays for some time, sees respectable foundation and presidents and just to attract their attention this side... Similarly, if he goes Los Angeles, San Francisco, all other cities, Boston, and sees important men, makes propaganda that "We are doing this. Please come and help," that will be very nice. Arrange lectures from... Our local temples may arrange lectures, and he can impress people about the importance of this movement. Not only one, I require several such preachers now. Now we are improving. We are increasing our propaganda. We require several such assistants. So those who have decided to remain brahmacārī, some of them, those who are experienced, they can accept this sannyāsa order and preach. Outside propaganda is also required. Don't you think? Outside propaganda? Hayagrīva: Well, I don't know if it's that important. I think more important than that is that he develop the place. I mean actually I think that's good at the beginning, but there's still a degree... Prabhupāda: His outside work means developing this place, but not by remaining here. He may come, remain here. Say for three months he remains, and again he goes three months outside. Again he comes one month. Why three months? One month here, again goes out. Two months outside, again comes. He sees how things are going on. He can suggest, "You do like this. You can do like this." And you execute with your assistance. Will not that be nice? He gives your suggestion that "You should..." He can give yourself that "You burn this tree." But if you like, you can burn. Otherwise you don't burn. Kīrtanānanda: Haribol. Prabhupāda: But if he remains here, you say, "It must remain," he says, "It must be burned," and then there will be kalaha, quarrel. You see? Better you let him travel, and when he comes, if he gives his suggestion that "This tree should be burned," and now you decide whether it should be burned or should remain. And if he works outside, then we can very quickly develop because we get outside sympathy for developing this center. I think that should be the way. What it is bringing? Śyāma: Paper. *Prabhupāda: Some paper. (laughs) So inside*-outside work must be done. Bahyābhyantaram śuciḥ. You know that verse? Hayagrīva: Well, are you leaving the decision up to me or what? Are you leaving the decision up to me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Local management, your decision, yes. Hayagrīva: No, I mean whether he's to stay here or to travel or what. Prabhupāda: No. Your decision is all right, but now he can give some suggestion. Actually, when you are in charge of, your decision will be all right. But just like we make a plan. That is not one man's decision. That is the society's decision. Suppose if we want to construct a temple here. So in this way we have to cooperate. Otherwise how it can be developed? Hayagrīva: I'd rather not be totally in charge because it's too much work. I mean I don't want to be in that sense responsible for the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Then in your absence this secretary will do or this maṭha command will do. Hayagrīva: Beg pardon? Prabhupāda: Maṭha command will be Hṛṣīkeśa. Hayagrīva: Maṭha commander? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you want to stay here. You are not staying here? Hayagrīva: I'll be staying here ... Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Hayagrīva: ...permanently, temporarily at least, for a while. *Prabhupāda: Then? Why temporarily? You can... As gṛhastha, you can build a small house and stay with your wife and children. You remain the president of this center. That will be nice. Yes. As there are many*-in all centers there is one president-similarly, you remain president of this center. Hayagrīva: Well, what happens when I leave? Then if he's not here and I leave, what happens then? Prabhupāda: Then the maṭha command, secretary. Not with you, not that all, everyone, is leaving. You may leave sometimes. You want to go to your college, university, like that? Hayagrīva: Well, I'll be gone every week about half a week for the whole school year. So somebody has to be here to take charge for three days out of the... I'm at least gone three days at least. Prabhupāda: So then the Paramānanda is there, and he is there. They are not fools. They are also intelligent. They can manage. Hayagrīva: Well, whatever situation you want to set up. *Prabhupāda: No, no, I think this will be nice because if he does outside propaganda, that will help development of this center. You make nice, what is called? Prospectus? I gave you the idea, that what is the idea of this center and make plans and where we want to construct temple, the, what is called, design of the temple, and make nicely and put before the people, and they have already known that Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is going on. So there are so many rich people in our country. If somebody comes forward, we can make very nice progress very quickly. So we have to make some propaganda amongst them. Actually it is the nicest possible thing. Simply they have to be convinced. That's a fact. Nobody can challenge our sincerity and our purity in this world. Let anyone come, any so*-called society, yoga society, this society, this, that. The best thing we are presenting. There is no doubt about it. Now people has to know it, how to make it known. We have to go to the newspaper man, magazine man, to the foundations. So one responsible... One? Why one? Two, three men must move amongst them. And whenever required, if some big meeting is arranged, then I also go. People should know about our activities. We are not bogus thing. We are not that Maharshi Mahesh, that "I give you something private, and give me some money." We are not that. We have got philosophy. We have got programs. We have got authorities. So we must let people know the importance of this movement. What do you think, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? Kīrtanānanda: Haribol. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: Well, I think... Prabhupāda: You have to sometimes go also. Hayagrīva: Well, I think that until things are set in motion here... I don't know. Actually he does most of the supervision here, and things aren't in motion. I'm at a loss. I don't like to get people down and get them to do their job. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. In the meantime, you prepare the literature. You give me the literature. I'll get it printed somehow or other. You give me the synopsis. Both you consult, make a literature. And as soon as the literature is prepared, you will be out with that. And we have got so many centers. There is no difficulty of staying. He can stay in some center and go and see the important men there. He is educated. He is learned. He has known our philosophy. He can convince people. He can arrange a big meeting of respectable men. They must know what we are doing, the importance of this movement. And your people, your government, is anxious to have something tangible because there are already frustration in so many departments, in so many factions. So this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, will, I mean to say, smooth everything, pave everything. So they must know. And our process is very simple. We can introduce this process even in factories, even in anywhere, and we make peaceful everything. That is a fact. School, college, university, factory, everywhere. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is cleansing process. Everything is dirty. So we want to cleanse and make people peaceful and happy. That is our mission. We are not money-collecting mission, that "Give me your money, and let me enjoy." We are not that. Money, we have got much money. Kṛṣṇa is our... The whole money is Kṛṣṇa's. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Kṛṣṇa is so valuable, if one gets Kṛṣṇa, he wants no more anything. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "I am now satisfied. I don't want anything." Like Dhruva Mahārāja. So you are giving Kṛṣṇa so that people will be so happy he will say, "Oh, I don't want anything. Now I have got the thing." You are distributing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was adored by Rūpa Gosvāmī, "Oh, You are the most munificent incarnation. You are distributing Kṛṣṇa-prema." So we have taken that job. So people must know our importance. So outside propaganda is required. Don't you think it is required? Yes. So make literature. Make nice literature with picture, we get it printed, and then, in the meantime, you try to see things, how it can be managed. And let him move outside. As I am moving, he will move. And if some other boys who are determined to remain brahmacārī, not to marry...They can also take up. Brahmācari and sannyāsī is meant for moving. Yes. Gṛhastha cannot move because they have to earn. They have to maintain. But the brahmacārīs, they will go and beg contribution. A sannyāsī will make the situation favorable. Just like if now a little more, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known, if some brahmacārī goes, that "We come from the..." Just like in San Francisco it happened. One of our brahmacārīs was arrested. So when he was taken into police custody, the officer said, "Oh, he is Swami's man. Let him go. Let him go out." Yes. Actually happened so. Similarly, in New York also happened. They were arrested in the subways, and when they were taken in the police custody, he also, "Oh, they are doing nice work. Let them go." (chuckling) So we must make the situation-people will know that they are doing some good work. And when the brahmacārīs go there to beg some contribution, they will be glad: "Oh, yes, they are doing nice work." So we have to do outside propaganda. First of all you make this literature, as I suggested. That you have got. You consult, both together. You do it, and I shall get it printed, at least a few thousand, five thousand or ten thousand. And then Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will go to stay in every center for some days and make, see the important men and convince. That is necessary. Give me water. (wind blowing microphone) Hayagrīva: So when should this be started? Prabhupāda: As soon as the literature is prepared. Huh? Kīrtanānanda: In the meantime we'll work on something. Prabhupāda: Yes. You finish it and give me. I will get it printed, and then he goes. In the meantime you... So he remains as consultant. Your proposal, that you remain president, he is secretary, and treasurer, and he is consultant so long he is here and when he comes. Hayagrīva: So he can be... He'll be general supervisor? Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally when he comes, he becomes overhead everyone, when he comes, because he is a sannyāsī. Just like here, when I am present, you take all final decision from me, so that should be the honor of the sannyāsī. But he should actually... He is not in charge of this place. Just like in other centers the president, secretary, are in charge. Hayagrīva: So that's not called maṭha commander. That's called general supervisor. Prabhupāda: He will be, for the time being, the superintendent of the society. He will go everywhere and see and report me what, how things are going on. And then we are going to make a central committee gradually. Everything will be done. Let us work very seriously and sincerely. Everything will come out. Hayagrīva: So then Śyāma dāsī is our treasurer..., secretary. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is treasurer, Hṛṣīkeśa? Hayagrīva: He's treasurer and temple commander. Prabhupāda: No, what...? You president, she is secretary, and then? Treasurer? Hayagrīva: He could be also vice president or temple... Well, there has to be a second charge, another person in charge. Prabhupāda: That you select, who should be vice president. Hayagrīva: Temple commander. Prabhupāda: No. Because you president, you can select out of all the workers... Hayagrīva: Not many. Prabhupāda: ...who will be nicely representing you. That's your trust. Hṛṣīkeśa: There will be more workers. More will come. There are more people coming all the time, aren't they? Hayagrīva: Well, if they'll stay on a permanent basis. Devotee: Why not? It's such a nice place. Hayagrīva: Yes, but I mean all this time we only... We don't have... Not many on a permanent basis. Devotee: You won't be leaving until September. You won't be leaving until September? Hayagrīva: Well, I don't know. I may. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Kali*-yuga, everything should be managed by society. In Bhāgavata also. Yes. *Hayagrīva: Oh, democracy. In Kali*-yuga, democracy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Society. Body. Hayagrīva: This is not best. This is not best. You mention that in the books, that this is not very good. Prabhupāda: This is not very good in this sense... But at that time one man was so advanced that his order was perfect. Actually these kings like Mahārāja Parīkṣit and others, they were consulting learned brāhmaṇas, not that they were actually autocrat. No. They used to consult how the government should be conducted. Kīrtanānanda: They had a council of brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: Yes, council of brāhmaṇas. Yes. The brāhmaṇas, they are not politicians, but they would give from śāstra direction, "You are a king. You do like this." Kīrtanānanda: There were instances when the king wouldn't follow the brāhmaṇas, so they were thrown out, weren't they? Prabhupāda: Yes. There were such instances also. Just like Prthu Mahārāja. His father was dethroned. I think same thing was in England also, the knights. If they liked, they dethroned the king. Kīrtanānanda: Not exactly the knights. They were more... Prabhupāda: Noblemen. Yes. The knights are different? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Knights were fighting men. Satyabhāmā: They're warriors. Knights were like kṣatriya. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. And noblemen? Kīrtanānanda: They were the lords. They were... Satyabhāmā: There were no brāhmaṇas, though. (laughs) Śyāma: There were bishops. Kīrtanānanda: Not exactly brāhmaṇas. They were proprietors of large tracts of land, and they were responsible for giving protection to a certain number of people under them. Prabhupāda: Aristocrats. The same system the Britishers introduced in India also. They were called zamindari. [break] That is sannyāsī's business. Hayagrīva: I see somebody's going to get stuck with a lot of traveling tickets. Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will provide. That doesn't matter. You see? Hayagrīva: So I want to make certain that this is your... Prabhupāda: Sometimes I think that "I came here with no money, and now I am spending so much money in traveling." (laughter) Aeroplanes. As soon as I get on aeroplane, immediately two hundred dollars. And not only I am, my assistant also. So Kṛṣṇa will provide. That doesn't matter. Hayagrīva: This is the way, I mean, you want it. I don't quite understand... Prabhupāda: Yes. I think... No... You see, if we actually serious about developing this place, then we must do propaganda work outside also. Not only inside management, but outside also, we should draw the sympathy of the people. Don't you think it is necessary? Hayagrīva: It's necessary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: But my question was that I won't get any cooperation from people if they think that my being in charge here is a concession. You see? I won't get any cooperation from anyone. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is not concession. It's necessary. One man must be in charge of this place. So you don't think like that. Everyone will cooperate. Why not? It is Kṛṣṇa's. Nobody is actually the in*-charge. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. We are simply assisting Kṛṣṇa. In that spirit we shall work. Hayagrīva: Well, it's almost impossible to be in charge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. What do you think, Śyāma dāsī? Śyāma: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is in charge. Everyone should think that "I am acting to satisfy Kṛṣṇa." That's it. And you, immediately you make that literature for outside propaganda, the aims and objects of what we want to do and the plan, entire plan, where we want to... So long I am here, at least you make a plan, and I give you instructions where to construct which temple, the design of the temple, guesthouse. In this way you make a plan. Have you got an entire plan of this land? Kīrtanānanda: No. But I can get one. Prabhupāda: You get it. Then I give you direction and make it nicely, and you print it, nice paper. We have to make propaganda. *Hayagrīva: Well, in order to develop the place properly, we're going to need people who are dedicating themselves, not just fly*-by-night, people who come and stay for a week and then go. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will come. Hayagrīva: But we're going to need people who stay here permanently. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some people will... At least fifty men should live here permanently. That I shall arrange. Hayagrīva: Fifty. Prabhupāda: Fifty at least. Otherwise this big property, how it can be managed? At least fifty men. At least. It may go to two hundred. Kīrtanānanda: On this property? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Haribol. Prabhupāda: This whole property. We have to manage so many temples. Kīrtanānanda: The conservation people estimate that this land will support eighteen people. Hayagrīva: Well, that's materialists. Kīrtanānanda: Thirty people, I think. Hayagrīva: That's a materialistic calculation. Kīrtanānanda: So if you want one cow for every person, it would only support eighteen cows. Prabhupāda: Eighteen cows? The whole property? *Kīrtanānanda: If you want them to be self*-sufficient, you have to grow grain for them for the winter. Prabhupāda: All right. Let eighteen people first of all. Then we shall share, eighteen people. You see? Hayagrīva: One cow per person. We're all going to end up with the gout. Prabhupāda: No. They don't calculate one cow, one person. They calculate only cow. And that does not mean eighteen persons will only remain. Hayagrīva: I think a cow can do four or five people nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? No... I calculated, one cow per one person means the milk products he can sell, he can get other necessities of life in that way. Yes. And otherwise, one cow's milk, it can be shared by ten people at least. Hayagrīva: So eighteen cows, that's 180 people. I mean, could support that many people on the farm. Prabhupāda: Not support. Devotee: Give them milk. Hayagrīva: Oh, give them milk. Prabhupāda: Milk, yes. Milk products. Kīrtanānanda: I think you could keep fifty cows on this property if you bought your grain and hay from outside. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That we have to do. We cannot get everything. If we construct temple, we will require so many things. It is not possible to be self*-sufficient within this land. We have to get so many things outside. That means we have to get money from outside. Yes. Satyabhāmā: Can we put requests in the next news, next New Vrindaban newsletter, for people who, devotees who are interested that they should come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satyabhāmā: Because many people don't know that they can come, that there's any facility or that they are wanted here. Hayagrīva: Well, there is no facility. Prabhupāda: Now first of all... Satyabhāmā: The barn. Prabhupāda: ...repair that barn immediately so you can... At least ten people can live there. Satyabhāmā: If there were people here, then facilities could be built. But if there are no people... Prabhupāda: You'll get everything, men and money both. Hayagrīva: Have you any plans yet to go to England? Is anything definite? Prabhupāda: Yes. That plan is pending. But I have just now received letter from Mukunda that they are negotiating three houses. Out of that, one they must get. And if they invite me, then I shall go. That is already settled. But I don't wish to go unless they have got their own house. I have waited so long, so I don't wish to go as a third person. I must go... Just like I have come here definite, New Vrindaban, similarly, when they get nice temple I go and open it. Kīrtanānanda: Then it may be some time yet. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) And that Mataji, she has taken land. I don't like that idea. Some Hindus are supporting. I don't want a Hindu temple. Our constitution is different. We want everyone. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is for everyone. It is not a Hindu propaganda. People may not misunderstand. And actually, till now in our society there is not a single other Hindu than me. (laughter) Is that not? Is there any Hindu? Devotee: Sarvasva? Prabhupāda: Sarvasva, he is not living in the temple. Satyabhāmā: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, yes. Yes. Hayagrīva: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa? Where is he? Prabhupāda: He is in Montreal. Satyabhāmā: And Malvani. Malvani, the old man. Prabhupāda: Malvani, he is not disciple. Satyabhāmā: He's living in the house. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He is living, and he is doing service. He is almost disciple. Yes. He came to Buffalo and Boston. But I don't think he can follow the four principles. He is meat*-eater because his family eats meat. Kīrtanānanda: I've never been able to figure that out, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Kīrtanānanda: The Hindus, they think it is such a tremendous thing to give up meat*-eating, and here we have been raised with meat-eating, and we have no problem whatever. To us it is nothing to give up... Prabhupāda: No. There is no problem for Vaiṣṇava here in America. They are not trained. They are simply... Just like there are so many Christians. Practically they are not following. Similarly, these Hindus at the present moment, they are in name. Either Hindus, Muslim, or..., they are in name only. Kīrtanānanda: There's no real substance. Prabhupāda: No. Kīrtanānanda: When one starts tasting the real substance then there is no problem giving up any of the... Prabhupāda: Yes. When he gives importance to Kṛṣṇa he can sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is another state. That is not ordinary stage. That is transcendental state. Yes. Hayagrīva: You mentioned with the payments... Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that veda mukha mane..., veda viruddha kārya kare, veda mukhe mane: "They do everything against *Vedas*, but they say that 'We are following. We are followers of the Vedic religion.' " What is that? Hayagrīva: You said that with the payments, that the society can take up some of these? How would that be managed, and when would it be put into effect? Because there is a payment this August for five hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: So, we'll have to manage. You are making that document transferred to the Society? Hayagrīva: Yes. Prabhupāda: So give that and we shall manage. Devotee: It's twenty after six now. Shall we have kīrtanas? Prabhupāda: All right. All right. Let us... (end) Lord Caitanya Play Told to Tamäla Kåñëa -- August 4, 1969, Los Angeles Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The first thing about this... Can you tell me something about Lord Caitanya's birth, when He was born, what happened, what was it like, all about it. Prabhupāda: When He was...? Description of His birth? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we will have a scene showing the people chanting by the..." Prabhupāda: One scene you have to show that in the Ganges water people are taking bath, and there is on the sky beginning of the moon eclipse, lunar eclipse. And they are all chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and taking bath. And exactly at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared. This is one scene. And the appearance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu should be underneath a tree. Under this scene, this scene, one... Advaita Prabhu's wife, Śrīvāsa's wife, they were elderly, and all other women of the village, they immediately came with presentation. And some of the demigods, they also came, I mean to say, disguising themselves as ordinary men, with presentation. And His father got so many valuable presentations. And then again, some of the professional dancers, they came. So he distributed charity to them. In this way, that function... Try to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was Nārada there? Did Nārada Muni come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nārada Muni also came. You can show that. Yes. all the devatas, all the demigods came. Nārada Muni, Brahmā, Śiva. They came in disguise, and their wife, Savitri, and then Umā. Umā is the wife of Lord Śiva. In that way you can show so many demigods and their wives coming. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the women, when Lord Caitanya was a baby, how did they feel about Him? *Prabhupāda: The baby was on the lap of His mother, and they looked little far*-off, just to glance over the baby, not touching. Because newly born baby. So they saw from little distant. That's all. And the baby was very beautiful. He was golden complexion. And His grandfather was a great astrologer, His mother's father, Nīlāmbara Cakravartī. He immediately calculated His horoscope, constellation of the stars under which He was born. He calculated that "This boy will be a great reformer." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the position of astrology in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Astrology is a science. Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to do with astrology, but it is the general custom that as soon as a child is born the astrologers come. That is the Indian system, Vedic system. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya, He would cry so that He could hear them chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa to Him? Prabhupāda: Yes. That was not on that day, but when He was little grown up. As soon as He would cry, so the neighboring friends of His mother, all young girls would come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and He'll stop. Sometimes they would tease Him so that He may cry, and they'll see that He's crying, and they'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and He'll stop. Again tease. (laughs) So that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was preaching Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting by His childhood activities. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What are some of the things that He did when He was a little boy? Some tricks or things? Prabhupāda: Sometimes He would play with snakes. One day, when He was crawling in the courtyard... Indian house... As, just like here is compound outside. In Indian house there is courtyard inside. So He was crawling in the yard, and a snake came, a snake. And He began to play with the snake. The snake will do like this and crawling, and He would see it, He would strike. In this way the snake was playing and the mother became so much afraid. They cannot touch. If the snake bites... So they simply saw that the child is playing with the snake, and after some time the snake went away. And they took up the child, "Oh, God has saved this child, otherwise He would have been killed. Such a venomous, big snake." Govinda dāsī: It was a big snake? Very big? And was it Śeṣa? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. It may be understood that he was Śeṣa, but that was the incident. And another incident is that when He was just walking... So it is the system that small children, they are decorated with ornaments here, here, bangle, so many ornaments, here. So one thief saw that... He stole away the child. So he was seeking some secret place, lonely place, so that he can rob of... In this way seeking, seeking, he traveled, and at last he came just in front of the house, and he dropped the child, that "Somebody may see that I have taken this child. Then I'll be beaten, I will be caught." So out of fear he fled away. And the guardians, ladies, they were very much anxious, "Who has taken the child? He was with ornaments." But they saw that the child is there. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu enjoyed for some time on the shoulder of the thief. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Were they liberated souls? The thief? Prabhupāda: At least, after Caitanya Mahāprabhu's getting on their shoulders, (laughs) they must have been liberated. No flower? Bring some flower. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He would sometimes eat clay? Prabhupāda: Yes. That was when He was about three years old. So generally, for morning the children given nice sandeṣa, sweetmeat, and this puffed rice in a cane pot and He would eat. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu was eating clay. So His mother said, "Oh, why You are eating clay?" Then He said, "What is the difference between clay and this foodstuff? After all, everything is clay. It is produced from clay." This is criticizing the Māyāvādī philosophy that everything is one. So His mother said, "My dear boy, it is very nice, everything is clay. But when you have to use for practical purpose... For example, if you want to keep water, so you have to keep water on the clay pot, not on the clay. So this specific form of the clay is required." Then He said, "Mother, you have taught Me very nice philosophy. I shall not eat any more clay." Sometimes He would sit in some nasty place where pots, clay pots... In India still, the system is, for cooking purpose, for the Deity, every day a new clay pot should be used. In Jagannath temple still it is. No used pot can be accepted. So after using, the rejected pots are stacked in some place. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sitting on the rejected pots. So His mother said, "My dear boy, You are sitting in this nasty place. Why?" He said, "Well, how you can say this is nasty place? These pots are very pure." Hm? [break] Govinda: Tell him. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's all right. You know, we will need a harmonium. Should I wait till we get to India to purchase one? Prabhupāda: You haven't got in New York? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have one in New York temple. Los Angeles saṅkīrtana needs a harmonium, a good harmonium. Maybe... Prabhupāda: Can you spare hundred dollars? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right now... Prabhupāda: You get hundred dollars; then we shall get. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Wakim and Son?(?) Prabhupāda: No, from elsewhere. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More mṛdaṅgas. Prabhupāda: These boys, Acyutānanda, they do not write what they are doing, what they are not doing. I do not know whether they have made a plan to go away from the society and live independently. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like it is very difficult to go to India without you and still come back. It seems... Prabhupāda: No. When we go to India I shall go with you. Yes. We must go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We can go to Jagannātha Purī? Prabhupāda: Everywhere we shall go. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, what was the last thing? About the pot? Govinda dāsī: "Mother, these pots are very, are pure." Prabhupāda: He, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, taught that anything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, it is not impure. That was His purpose. "You should not treat these pots as impure. Ordinarily, when such pots are used for household purposes, that may be impure. But because in these pots prasādam were prepared, that is not impure." That was His... (pause) Govinda dāsī: I don't know what letters you want. Prabhupāda: There is one letter from... Let me see. Govinda dāsī: From Karandhara? Prabhupāda: No. We don't hear anything about, from Śivānanda. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Berlin? Kṛṣṇa dāsa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is he in Berlin yet? Is Kṛṣṇa dāsa in Berlin? Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa dāsa and that German boy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Uttamaśloka. Prabhupāda: Uttamaśloka. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can Uttamaśloka come with saṅkīrtana? Prabhupāda: When you go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we go to Berlin. Prabhupāda: (pause) Hm. Very good. So if we go, there will be good reception in Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will pay nice money to hear us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Labor of love. Prabhupāda: Yes. You love something and unnecessarily you labor. So religion means... This is religion, how to develop love of God. That is religion. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also there is a story in the *Bhāgavatam* about the girls; they were offering to Lord Śiva. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another feature of Lord Caitanya. He taught in that instruction that there is no need of worshiping demigods. The incident is that in India the unmarried girls, they are encouraged to worship Lord Śiva especially in the month of Vaiśākha, March*-April. And they will go to the Ganges side and prepare Śivaliṅga, and they'll... That means Śiva will be pleased upon them to offer a husband like Lord Śiva. Śiva is very peaceful and very great devotee and most powerful at the same time. So that is the ideal husband. So they brought worshipable paraphernalia for worshiping Śiva on the bank of the Ganges, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as naughty boy, approached them. "Oh, my dear sister, what you are doing? Oh, you have brought so many nice things. Give it to Me, and Lord Śiva will be very much pleased. Oh, you are worshiping Durga? She is My maidservant and Lord Śiva is a great devotee of Me. So you please offer Me all these things; they will be satisfied. You don't require to offer separately." By this, He wanted to instruct that worshiping the Supreme Lord is the appeasement of other demigods. You don't require to appease them separately. This instruction. Then some girls will hesitate. Then He will curse them that "You'll be married with an old man having seven children by his former wife." So they will be afraid, "Oh, maybe this boy is cursing..." Then out of fear they'll offer. Then He said, "Oh, you'll have a very nice young husband and you'll have seven children by him." In this way it was going on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya is always doing this on a planet in the material, some material universe? These girls... All of these pastimes are eternal pastimes. Prabhupāda: Hm? No. These are not eternal pastimes. They are instructive particularly for this planet. In the eternal Vaikuṇṭha, Lord Caitanya is engaged in chanting and dancing. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe you should, you must have your massage now. It's time. Prabhupāda: What is time? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is twenty*-five minutes to uh... Maybe we can do a little more. Twenty-five minutes to twelve. Maybe a tiny bit more. Prabhupāda: You can do, you can ask me for fifteen minutes more. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We also wish to show a scene of Lord Caitanya in school, learning. Some kind of incident about how nice a pupil He was so we can show people that He was the best student in the school. Prabhupāda: In India the system is in the school that the best student is appointed... What is called in English? The chief student is called "minor," or... "M," beginning. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Monitor. *Prabhupāda: Monitor, yes. Monitor. So He was monitor. That is the same. And He'll teach the students from grammar all Kṛṣṇa. Dhātu. Dhātu. There is subject matter. Dhātu means verb. So He will ex*-plain... dhātu means, when a dhātu is taken away a man is dead, and this dhātu is Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the life. Without Kṛṣṇa a man is dead." In this way He explained. Kṛṣṇa explanation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How old was He? Prabhupāda: I may say, eight or ten years old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that what we will try to do is have Birbhadra come with us and he will play Lord Caitanya as a boy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be nice. And he is a very intelligent boy. He'll pick up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are there any other, any other nice incidences between this time and when Lord Caitanya got married? Prabhupāda: In childhood there are many incidents. Another incident... That is a very important incident. When He was very small, crawling, so one brāhmaṇa came as their guest. And the brāhmaṇa, after preparing food, when he would offer to Kṛṣṇa, this boy, a child, crawling and take the prasāda and eat. And the brāhmaṇa will cry, "Oh, everything is spoiled. This boy, child has touched." Then His father would request him, "I should take care of Him. Please cook again and offer to Kṛṣṇa." He said, "It is too late now. I'll eat some fruits." "No. Please cook." So twice He spoiled in that way. Then it became night, so all the ladies, they went to sleep with the child and locked the door of the room. And at night at about eleven o'clock the brāhmaṇa, when he was offering to Kṛṣṇa, and the child came and took the prasādam. The brāhmaṇa again began to cry, "Oh, here again the child has come. How you are taking care?" And nobody heard him because everyone was sleeping. One letter is left here? Govinda dāsī: Ah, yes. I got that. I got that one out. It was from Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes. Keep that. So then He appeared as... No. As boy He talked with him that "You are asking Me to come and take, and I am taking, and you are... Why you are howling like that? What can I do? You are asking Me." Then He showed him that He is Kṛṣṇa Himself and warned him that "Don't disclose this fact. You are My devotee; therefore I disclose. So you were asking Me, so I came." Then the brāhmaṇa was so satisfied that "Kṛṣṇa is here," and he did not disclose. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe we will show Lord Caitanya's marriage? Is that nice to show? Prabhupāda: Yes. Marriage. Yes, that is nice. The Indian system, marriage, is that the bridegroom goes to the house of the bride with procession, band, nicely decorated. They'll go... And He'll be married with first Lakṣmīpriyā, the first wife. There will be fireworks in the marriage ceremony. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will be very nice in this... Prabhupāda: Yes. You can make band, fireworks, decoration, and feasting... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtana. Prabhupāda: So many ladies, like that. That scene, I shall direct how to do it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's father was not very rich man. So there was a big zamindar. He was devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So he had some affection for Caitanya. So when the marriage ceremony was being settled up, he said, "Oh, His marriage shall not be just like the brāhmaṇas' marriage." Brāhmaṇa's wife, they are poor; so there is no expenditure. Some way or other, his marriage is done. But especially kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas, oh, they spend lakhs of rupees in marriage. So he said that "His marriage will not take place just like the brāhmaṇas. His marriage will be royal marriage." So he spent all the money, and there was grand, everything grandeur. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then His wife, she died? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So His mother was feeling... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to East Bengal for teaching, and actually, the girl felt too much separation, and she died. And figuratively it is used that the separation took the form of a serpent and bitten her and she died. And when He came back His mother requested that "You should marry for the second time," and He agreed. And so next marriage was with Viṣṇupriyā. In the first marriage, Lakṣmīpriyā, He used to see her when she was bathing in the Ganges ghāṭa, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu desired that "I shall marry this girl." So His father sent one matchmaker. So when the matchmaker came to His mother that "Such and such brāhmaṇa..." I forget his name, but the name is there in the Caitanya*-Bhāgavata. "He desires that his daughter should be married with your son." And Śacīdevī said, "Oh, my son is not yet grown up. He's just a student. How He can be married?" So she practically denied. And the matchmaker was going back, not very satisfied. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was entering home. He saw the matchmaker and asked, "No, why did you come here?" "Yes, I came to propose Your marriage with such and such daughter, but Your mother is not willing." "Oh, mother is not willing? All right. You can go." Then when He came, entered home, He asked mother, "Mother, what did you do? That matchmaker was going very sorry. Why? What did you say?" The mother could understand that He is willing for the marriage. Then she called back the matchmaker. "Yes. I agree for the marriage." So the marriage ceremony... So Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave hint that "I want to marry that girl." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe we can do a nice scene with Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His friends' sojourn, I mean, they do have a nice time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can do... Prabhupāda: It is simply adjustment. You can make very nice scene. Everything can be done nice, provided we arrange for that. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Nara*-nārāyaṇa, he is very good at building scenery. He can do all of that very quickly. Prabhupāda: So you'll play in the stage or make studio? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better that we play either in a big area so we can be right in the middle of people. People will be all around. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That will be very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because then we include them. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the system. That is called jātrā in India. That is very good system. There is no stage, but by words and feelings everyone becomes absorbed, and chanting. So that will be very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We will have kīrtana, maybe seven to ten kīrtanas in the play, so everybody will be joining in. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they'll be asked to join. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even maybe when Lord Caitanya says to Nityānanda Prabhu and to... Prabhupāda: No, when singing is there, all the players and all the audience and everyone will sing. That will be very nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Even maybe Lord Caitanya says to Nityānanda Prabhu, "Go to all the people and tell them about Kṛṣṇa." So at that moment, we all, all the brahmacārīs, we go into the people and we talk. Then we come back and tell Lord Caitanya. We can preach too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's, it's fifteen. Prabhupāda: All right. Govinda dāsī: Stop now? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can you tell me something about Caitanya's initiation in Vaiṣṇava faith? When He was initiated? Prabhupāda: After His father's death it is the custom amongst the Hindus to offer oblations at Gayā. There is a temple, Viṣṇu temple. They offer prasādam. This is a Hindu custom. And with that prasādam the forefathers and the father is offered. So He went to perform that ceremony and by chance He met Īśvara Purī and He was initiated by Īśvara Purī. And after coming back from Gayā, He became very much emotional for Kṛṣṇa, and sometimes people thought that He has become crazy. So His mother treated with some oil. But learned devotees, they said that He has got devotional emotion. So His initiation was in Gayā, when He went to perform that ceremony. So you can show the Gayā temple or some temple. And He's offering oblations, He's meeting His spiritual master, he's initiating. In this way you can make it two, three scenes. And He became emotional chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa after initiation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The scenery will be very simple. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. That I know. That's all right. There is no need of scenery. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can do it by pantomime and gestures. Prabhupāda: That's alright. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That way, no matter where we are, people will understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He would swoon whenever He heard Kṛṣṇa's name? He would be swooning? Lord Caitanya would faint? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* that He revealed His heavenly powers to His associates. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was done in one day, saṅkīrtana. He asked His devotees after saṅkīrtana, "What do you want to eat?" So some of the devotees out of fun said that "We want mango." But that was not mango season. So He asked somebody, "All right. Bring some mango seed." So mango seed can be had in Bengal in everywhere because after eating mangoes they throw it, and gradually they become a small plant. So He brought some small plant mango and immediately sowed it on the courtyard, and immediately it became a big tree and full of mango. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That would be a nice time for us to distribute prasāda to all the people. Prabhupāda: Yes. If possible, mangoes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. From the tree. We'll have them hung on the tree and pick. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got nice ideas. You can do very nicely. Yes. This is required, creative ideas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe... About Lord Caitanya's civil disobedience. That is with the Kazi? His civil disobedience? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the Kazi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I read the introduction. There is a lot of material on it. Maybe some other things that we can... Prabhupāda: You can make scene that people, His disciples, are performing kīrtana and one scene you can make Kazi, Muslim magistrate, is sitting, and the brāhmaṇas, they come. "Sir, you are our protector. You are Kazi. You are magistrate. And this Nimāi Paṇḍita, young boy, He is creating so much disturbance." "What is that?" "He has begun this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is not our Hindu religion. He is chanting so loudly. Now this is the time God is sleeping. So He'll be disturbed. So the whole society will be vanquished if God becomes angry. So He'll be disturbed." So Kazi... After all, Hindus are complaining. So Kazi said, "All right, I am taking steps." So he sent some officers. And they were playing mṛdaṅga, and warned that "You cannot do this. You are disturbing here." That is going on still. Just like our Los Angeles, it is going on. In New York also, they complain to the Kazi, (laughs) police officer. But they could not do anything. So this complaint is going on since the inauguration of the saṅkīrtana movement. So Kazi first of all warned. Then He did not care. Then the police also came and broke the mṛdaṅgas forcibly. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "All right. We shall start thousands of men playing mṛdaṅga, and we shall go to the house of Kazi. Let us see what can he do." So He went with many followers, and many followers playing mṛdaṅga, and Kazi became afraid that "The people have become agitated." So he fled away. Then the people began to create disturbance in his garden. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Don't do this." Then Kazi came back, and Kazi was very submissive, and he said, "My dear Nimāi, You are in relationship my nephew." Because Hindus and Muslims in those days, although they had different religions, they had no animosity. They were living very friendly. So the Muslim elderly man will be said by the Hindus as Chāchā. And the Muslims they'll call Ṭhākura Mosai. Like that. Friendly terms. They will invite. In this way they were living. So the Kazi said that "Your grandfather, I call him Chāchā. He's elderly man. So Your mother is my sister. So You are my nephew. So do you think a nephew can be very angry upon his uncle?" And (chuckling) He said, "No, nephew must be obedient to the uncle. But do you think that uncle, when a nephew comes to his house, will not receive him?" "Oh yes. You are welcome. You are my nephew. You are my son." In this way the past incidences forgotten. Then they sat down. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, "My dear uncle, what is your religion that you are killing father and mother?" "Why killing father and mother?" "Oh, you are killing cow, your mother. You are drinking milk. And oxen, he produces grains for you in the field; so he is your father. The father earns for the children, so he is producing grains. And mother gives milk; so cow is giving milk. So how is your religion that the father mother killing?" Then he could understand that Caitanya is marking on the cow killing by the Mohammedans. Then he said, "Oh, this cow killing is also in your Hindu religion." Then He said, "How is that, Hindu religion cow killing?" "Oh, there is cow sacrifice." Then He said that cow sacrifice is not like this. Cow sacrifice is giving new life to the old cow. That is cow sacrifi... It is not killing. And because at the present moment the brāhmaṇas are not so qualified that they can give new life, therefore that sacrifice is now forbidden. He cited some verses from Vedic literature that cow sacrifice and horse sacrifice and to beget children by the younger brother of husband and sannyāsa, and offering oblations with meat, these things are forbidden. So that is past. This is... Now it has no significance. In this way, both of them were scholars. Then they compromised. Agreement was the Kazi gave order everyone of his descendants, that "Nobody will check this saṅkīrtana movement." So that order is being carried by their descendants still there in Nabadwip. The Kazi has got his tomb. He was a very big man. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He became a devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee means he was not converted, but he became very admirer of Caitanya and he ordered that "Caitanya can perform saṅkīrtana anywhere. Nobody shall check." So that order is still being carried out. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can do this in the dark with candles. Men playing drums, some people holding candles, marching to his house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it will look very... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe... Can we show him after Lord Caitanya (and) he talk, they both come out and everyone has kīrtana or is this not correct? Prabhupāda: No, you can do that. Kīrtana, that's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean the Kazi, he can be in the kīrtana? Prabhupāda: Yes. Out of jubilation, yes. That's all right. Govinda dāsī: Did he stop this cow killing thereafter? After talking with Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Prabhupāda: No. Because that is their religious ceremony. Caitanya simply criticized their process, but he replied that "In Your Vedic there is cow sacrifice." Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "That sacrifice is not killing. That's giving new life." So that much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhudvisa, he will play the Kazi. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhudvisa... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He will play the Kazi 'cause he is very... You see? So... So now, in the introduction it says Lord Caitanya was realizing how this sectarianism amongst all the religions was very bad, and so He decided to do away with all material... Well, He could not be... He was not material, but He decided to take sannyāsa at this time. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we can show His mother and His wife crying because He is taking sannyāsa. They see Him in His... Prabhupāda: No, no. He took sannyāsa by previous arrangement. One day He went away from home, accompanied by Murāri and Lord Nityānanda, and went to Katwa. There was one Māyāvādī sannyāsī, Keśava Bhāratī, and He took sannyāsa from him. And then He was, in emotion He was going to Vṛndāvana, but He was misled by Nityānanda, and He was brought to the home of Advaita, and Advaita arranged to bring His mother to see Him for the last. So His mother and many people from Nabadwip came to Sant... Advaita's house was in Santipur. So there was, for a few days, Caitanya Mahāprabhu stayed there, and saṅkīrtana and prasāda distribution was going on. And His mother feeling, feeling very well... But Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw that "My mother is not allowing Me to go. That is not good." So He requested, "Mother, I have taken sannyāsī. If I go on feasting like this with mother, what people will say? So you give Me permission to go." So mother said, "Yes, my dear boy. You have taken sannyāsī. But anyway You are happy. That is my happiness. But my only request is that You make Your headquarters at Jagannātha Purī. Because people from Nabadwip generally go there, so I shall get at least Your news. That is my last desire." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Yes. I shall make My headquarters in Purī." So people were coming and going. So His mother was getting news of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That was then last days. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after that incident, never met, either His mother... And there was no question of meeting with wife. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. So Jānakī, she can play the mother. She is... Prabhupāda: Yes. And you can show another scene that His wife, Viṣṇupriyā, she was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and one round finished, she counted it with one grain of rice. One round finished, one grain rice. So as many rounds finished, she'll eat only so much rice. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. He did that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He did that all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. That was... From 16 years till death she was doing that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought He sometimes would eat a room full of food? Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Didn't sometimes He eat a lot of food? Prabhupāda: Who? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes. And His mother would prepare nice dishes and offer to Viṣṇu and think, "Oh, this nice prasādam, I could offer my son Caitanya Mahāprabhu..., Nimāi, but He is..." She would cry. She was crying, "Oh, the boy is no longer here." Then, after some time, she would see the whole finished, whole prasādam. "What happened? I did not offer to Viṣṇu Deity? I simply brought the empty pot? Maybe." Then again she goes to the kitchen, and... "There is also nothing." Then again cook. "Perhaps I have forgotten to cook even, thinking of Caitanya." Then again she'll offer. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu sent news by some men that "Inform mother that one day she was thinking like that. So I went there. I ate everything, and she saw everything empty. She'll remember. Then again she cooked. And mother will feel happy. "Oh, then Nimāi came and did it. Oh, it is very nice." So this scene is very pathetic. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But how will we make... We will show Him take the food while her... How will we show this? How will we produce this? That she is sitting there, offering the food... Prabhupāda: No. You don't offer. Simply offering, and you'll simply play, "Where is the food?" That way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not real food. Prabhupāda: No. Or... Real food is not required. Simply that explain it. Or you can do one thing. You can offer real food. And since she will be in devotion, one may take the foodstuff and distribute to the audience and keep it. That will be also nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Maybe we can distribute prasāda twice in the play. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even just to... Maybe that plate we'll just give to a few people nearby. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...first speak in detail about Ṭhākura Haridāsa's disappearance. So tell me maybe how you want it to be performed. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ṭhākura Haridāsa was living in a cottage which was... Just like I am living here, and the garage site a little far off, Haridāsa was living a little distance. So when Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to go to the sea for taking bath, He every day, every morning He used to go to Haridāsa Ṭhākura and taking his informa..., "Haridāsa, what you are doing?" Because Haridāsa was Mohammedan by birth, so out of his meekness he did not go to the temple. But in those... Especially in those days they were very strict. They do not allow anyone except Hindus to enter the temple. Nowadays, of course, there is law. If somebody is, actually has come to the Hindu way of life, he's allowed. Our Jayagovinda and others were allowed to see Jagannātha temple. But in those days there were no such system and Haridāsa out of his own accord, he did not want to disturb But Lord Caitanya, God Himself, used to come to see him every day. So one day when Caitanya came, he looked little bit depressed. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, "Haridāsa, you do not look very well today. What is the matter?" "Sir, I'm not very feeling well. And because I do not feel well, I could not finished my chanting." He was chanting daily 300,000 times. "So I could not finish my chanting." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "All right. You are growing old. You may not follow the rules now strictly. You can make it later." Haridāsa Ṭhākura said, "No, Sir, so long my life is there I shall try to follow. When the life is over, that is different thing. But I have got one desire if You fulfill." "What is that?" "Now I can understand that You will also leave this world very soon. So I cannot tolerate that. So best thing is that before You'll go, I go. And my another request is that You shall stand before me, and I shall leave this body." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Oh, if that is your desire, that will be all right. That is not difficult." So next day, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu came, Haridāsa Ṭhākura said, "Sir, today I wish to leave. So You please stand before me." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu also could understand that he's leaving. So He asked His devotees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and in the presence of Caitanya Mahāprabhu he left. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu took this body, and Himself He went... He carried the body. He was very stout and strong. And He was dancing and... Then He went to the seaside, and He bathed the body, and in His own hands He buried Caitanya, uh, Haridāsa Ṭhākura's body within the sand. So that burial place is still there in Purī, Haridāsa Ṭhākura's samādhi. Then He personally went to the shopkeepers and begged prasādam. "You give Me some prasādam." All people gave Him so many things. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was so well*-known. So He asked all the devotees to take prasādam after the burial ceremony was over. In this way Haridāsa Ṭhākura's... Niryāna. This is called departure of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. That is stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I noticed that someone in the temple was reading a book, The Divine Name. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it talks about this. Should I look at that book or not at all? Prabhupāda: Which book? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's called The Divine Name. It is by one of your Godbrothers. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it all right to read it? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are some discrepancies, but it is, on the whole, it is nice. Yes. There is... Haridāsa Ṭhākura's niryāna is stated there? Yes. Rāghava Caitanya. Yes, he was my Godbrother. You have secured that book? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Upendra dāsa has it. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's good. That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a scene about Lord Caitanya embracing the leper Vasudeva. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a nice scene to perform? Prabhupāda: Yes. While He was traveling in South India, in a village that leper Vasudeva, he was coming to see Caitanya from a very distant place. And then when he came to see Him, Caitanya Mahāprabhu had already left. So he was so sorry and crying. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu came back and embraced him and he was cured. These are some of the miracles. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the introduction to the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, up until the age of 31 there is description, but then there is very little description from the age of 31 to Lord Caitanya's disappearance. Maybe you can tell me as much as you can of what happened... Prabhupāda: He left His home at the age of 24 years. Then He made His headquarter in Jagannātha Purī. For six years He traveled all over India. That means up to thirty years. And after that He remained in Jagannātha Purī for 18 years. He was chanting in the evening in the Jagannātha temple, and taking bath. And during this car festival all devotees, especially from Bengal, would go there and live there for four months. And after seeing the Rathayātrā ceremony, they will remain there for four months. Then they will come back. This was going on year after year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are there any nice stories you can tell me so that I can... See, I need some stories from that part of His life to show in the play how He... Some incidents, memorable, you know, that... Prabhupāda: There were not many. The Rathayātrā is very nice. He was chanting with a group of devotees, and while the car festival is going on. And sometimes car used to stop. It still stops. That is the fashion of Jagannātha. And nobody could, even an elephant could not draw it. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu will say, "All right, come on." So He would push it with His head and it will go on. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What did the people say when they saw that? *Prabhupāda: Then... That was... Caitanya Mahāprabhu already adored, He was. So, there is... Rathayātrā car festival, and Guṇḍicā*-mārjana. Guṇḍicā-mārjana. Before the Rathayātrā festival, the system is Jagannātha goes from the temple to another place about two miles away. There is a big temple there also which is called Jagannātha Aunt's(?) house, Mahiṣī badi. So He stays there for eight days. Just like we make program in San Francisco to reside on seaside. So that temple was to be washed. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do it by His personal supervision. So all the devotees... And He will check how much dust you have recovered, and then you shall be rewarded. Otherwise, it should be understood that you have not labored nicely. (chuckles) So He'll sweep over the whole temple nicely and wash the ceilings and walls and everything so clearly. And He'll see in this way if there is any sand. If there is, "Oh, it is not washed." That means He would engage everyone. Then after washing, then call for prasādam and distribute Himself. This is called Guṇḍicā-mārjana. Actually, whatever He was doing, they were washing, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa," chanting. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He used to eat a lot of food? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not always. But people used to present some foodstuffs. Especially when the devotees would come from Bengal side, somebody is bringing something, somebody is... Whatever Caitanya Mahāprabhu likes. And they will prepare the whole year nice foodstuffs. That is, what is called, preserved food. You can keep it for days together. So His personal assistant was Govinda, and everyone will, I mean to say, offer Govinda, "Please offer this food to Prabhu." And Govinda will keep. And everyone is anxious whether his goods are taken. So he was inquiring Govinda, "Has Mahāprabhu has taken my food?" What can he say? "Yes, yes, yes, yes." But it is stacked in the store. So one day Caitanya Mahāprabhu He said that... He was Godbrother also, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He could talk with Him freely. He was not disciple. So "Guru Mahārāja sent me to serve You, and now the result is that for You I have to speak only lies." "What is that? You are speaking lies for Me?" "Yes. Why not? What can I do?" "Now, what is the matter?" "Now, Your devotees give me so many things for eating and just lying stacked. And they inquire and I say 'Yes, yes. He has taken.' So this is my business, telling lie." So then Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "All right. Bring something. I shall eat." So he brought one bag and He ate everything. "Bring next." In this way the whole stack, about 100 men's foodstuff, He ate. Then He asked him, "Bring more." "Now the bags are lying only. If You want to eat, (chuckling) You can eat." "All right. Stop." So in half an hour, one hour, He ate all the 100 men's stock. You see. This is also another miracle. He finished the whole stock to save him from speaking lies. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are the kind of things that will be very nice to present. Those are the things that I would like to do, because people will... *Prabhupāda: Another incident during Purī... Rāmānanda Rāya, he was a great devotee. So his younger brother, he was engaged in government service, Mahārāja Pratāparudra's service. But he was a karmi and a rich man. So he misappropriated some money for sense gratification from the treasury. So this was... And he had some, what is called, competition, or rivalry, between the king's son and himself. The king's son did not like him, so he was trying to put him in some difficulty. This man... His name is... He's Rāmānanda Rāya's brother. His name is there. I can find out. So he found out some fault with him and informed his father that "Your such and such person has doing like this. He has misappropriated the money. I paid him so much money for purchasing horse, and he has purchased horse less price. He was charged so much." "Oh," the king said, "Oh, how is that? He cannot do that. Realize that money." So he got some clue. So he said that "You must pay. This is not the right price. The state cannot accept at high price this kind of horses." So he said, "All right. I shall sell somewhere and repay the price." Then there was some argument. He said, "Why you have charged so much for this horse? This is not a very good horse." He said, "Yes, it is good horse. My horse does not look like this." That man, that king's son was looking like this. So he criticized him, so he became more angry. Because you know, everyone, that a horse who looks down like this, that is bad(?) horse. Or looking like this, he's not first*-class horse. Do you know that? (laughter) Horse, like this, kat, kat, kat, kat, that is first-class horse. And if horse goes like this, that is not good horse. So he criticized him, and he became angry, and he complained to his father that he's not paying. Rather, he's criticizing me. And he said, "All right. Press him. He'll pay." So the... In those days the highest punishment was cange utthanā. Cange utthanā means a platform is made very high and swords are put in the, this way. And one man is thrown on the swords. That is called cange utthanā. So the arrangement was to punish him like that. So when the arrangement was made, everyone became frightened that "This man will be killed." So they presented the fact to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "He is Your devotee. He has served so much. Now he is in danger. If You kindly send some note to the king, he is also great admirer, then he may save his life." Caitanya Mahāprabhu refused, "Oh, he has misappropriated state's money, and you want Me to approach a pound-shilling man, king." He was not seeing even the king. "Oh, this is not possible for him. Let him be punished. He has taken money from the state. I don't wish to interfere." Then nobody could request him anything. So some way or other, the news approached the king, and the king was astonished, "Oh, why this arrangement was made for killing him? I never ordered. Stop him." Then he sent his special messenger, that, "Stop this and call him. What is the matter?" Then he said everything, that, "Your son, I could not pay his money. He wanted money, and he made this arrangement." So, "Why did you take money in this way? Do you think your salary is not sufficient to provide you? All right. Don't do this. All right, I excuse. And I increase your salary double. Don't do this again." So was he saved in his life, his salary was increased. And he was going to be killed. Although Caitanya Mahāprabhu never desired, but these things happened. So? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you can just tell me what you, the best way to have a nice scene of Jagāi and Mādhāi. *Prabhupāda: The first scene should be that Nityānanda Prabhu and Haridāsa Ṭhākura. They were ordered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu to go every day to, from one neighborhood to another and preach. So one day when they came out they saw at a distant place a crowd. So you have to make scene that a crowded place and these two brothers, Jagāi and Mādhāi, they have pickpocketed somebody and... Because they were debauches, so there was some howling and crowds. Yes. So Nityānanda Prabhu inquired, and people said that "These two brothers, they're born of a very respectable family, but they have now become debauches." So Nityānanda Prabhu, "Oh, they are so fallen? So best thing is to convert them first. Then Lord Caitanya's name will be glorious that He has delivered such rascals." So He went there to save. Then he said, "Who are you?" As soon as they came in, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, chanting, and these brothers said, "Oh, who are you?" "Oh, we are Nityānanda, and he is Haridāsa. We are preaching. You also join with us." So, "Oh get out! Hare Kṛṣṇa, your damn Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get out!" (chuckles) So Haridāsa Ṭhākura was old man, and he was afraid. But Nityānanda was young man so He fled away. Haridāsa Ṭhākura could not go so swift. He said, "My dear Nityānanda, I think today my life is at risk." So anyway, then after they were going away, the crowd dispersed and the brothers were talking. So one brother was talking to the other, "Jagāi, I think that these people very nicely sing. Don't you hear?" "Oh! You are going to be a saṅkīrtana man?" "No, no, no! I am not going to be saṅkīrtana man. Just I am talking about it." So this was their beginning appreciation. Then next day, again in the same place, Nityānanda came, and He requested, "My dear brothers, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So the Mādhāi, no Jagāi, Jagāi was so angry. They were drinking. So here you drink in bottles. They drink in earthen pot. So there was earthen pot. He hurled against His head and there was blood oozing out. So the other brother, Mādhāi said, "Oh, what you are doing? What you are doing? He's innocent." This news was reached to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very much angry. He came, "Bring My cakra. I shall kill these rascals immediately." He became so angry. Then Nityānanda Prabhu implored, "My dear brother, why You are very angry? They are the sample of this age. So if You become angry, then whom we are going to deliver? The whole population is full of like Jagāi and Mādhāi. So our preaching is for the most fallen. Why do You remember, why do You forget this? Don't be angry." Then both the brothers, they fell on the feet of Nityānanda. "Please forgive us. We have done wrong. You are so nice people. You are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa so innocent, and we are so..." This is the effect of seeing a pure devotee. Heart becomes soft. This is the association, effect of association. So they surrendered. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Yes, I will accept you. I don't care for your past deeds, but you have to agree that no more this nonsense." That means before initiation one might have done all nonsense things. That doesn't matter. That is not disqualification. But after initiation one should not. Then his life is changed immediately by this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. This is the instruction of Jagāi*-Mādhāi. So there were only two Jagāi-Mādhāis, but you'll meet hundreds of Jagāi-Mādhāis. So... But they can be delivered. There is no question that in their past life they had been sinful. Simply they have to agree that "No more this nonsense." Therefore I have kept these restrictions, these four restrictions. Anyone who adopts this life and initiated, and follows these restrictions, then he begins a new life. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can we show... We can't throw a pot at someone's head every night we perform this. It's not feasible to throw something at someone's head each time we do this. Prabhupāda: You do? No? No, no. You just make a...like this. That's all. And Nityānanda may be smearing his head and found some blood. In this way you can do like that. After all, it is show. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What we can do is make the two brothers maybe attack one of the visitors who are watching it. *Prabhupāda: Just like in play they keep some sponge with red color and somebody stabs, "Oohh!" and he squeezes. (laughter) In that way you can do it like that. After all, it is play. That's all. This is very important scene, Jagāi*-Mādhāi uddhara. Yes. You have to set very nicely. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. We'll go now. Prabhupāda: No. You just have ārati? Ārati? Govinda dāsī: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And that Kṛṣṇa*-kīrtana. This... Let them hear. (end) September Room Conversation -- September 9, 1969, Hamburg Prabhupāda: ...Prabhu, you understand English? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: You stay with your son? Woman: No. I am ...(unclear). *Prabhupāda: So why don't you stay here and join your son for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because your son is so good, you must be good. Because a son cannot be good unless the mother is good. Because son inherits the mother's quality. That is nature. This Hayagrīva's mother wrote me first one letter of congratulations, and she came also to see me in New Vrindaban, his father and mother. Especially his mother is very happy. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will produce good father and mother, and therefore they will have good children, and there will be no problem in the world. If everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Not everyone, even ten per cent people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will be no problem. Problem is created due to bad children. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Varṇa-saṅkara. So if there are good children, there is no problem. Even in this material world, everything will become happy. The basic principle of Vedic civilization is to create good children. All the rules and regulations, everything is there just to create good children. In the first chapter of Bhagavad-gītā these things are described very nicely by Arjuna. There are many purificatory processes to create a good child. A human being is not meant for creating offspring like cats and dogs. They must produce very good child. That is Vedic civilization. Good child means Kṛṣṇa conscious child. That's all. Yes. So we are trying to turn these children of the Western world, good children. And people should cooperate with us, this movement. We are taking care of the children, especially young boys and girls who are coming, and we are taking care of them very nicely. Sometimes we are getting them married also, to make their life very peaceful and intelligent and spiritually advanced and make a solution of life. So people should come forward to cooperate with this movement. How many children you have got? Two? Woman: Two boys. And other one. Prabhupāda: Other. He is eldest? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? Woman: The other one is in Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada? In Vancouver? No. Devotee: No. In Calgary. Prabhupāda: [break] ...making solution. Hayagrīva? You are biased. Hayagrīva: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: You suggest that "Here is another solution. Why we should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" No. There is no other. You have got any suggestion, any other method? No. Then why don't you take to it and preach? What is the difficulty? You don't like? [break] ...especially Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. That is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā-matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam na janma-koṭi sukṛtair labhyate. Very nice verse. He instructs that "If you can purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness from any market, any store, please immediately buy it." Then next question is "Then what is the price? What shall I have to pay for it?" And Rūpa Gosvāmī says, "Oh, the price is simply eagerness." Tatra laulyam... "Yes, I must have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the price. Laulyam, that eagerness is not achieved even after many, many births. That is the price. Therefore it requires a little intelligence. "Oh, such a valuable thing? I can purchase only by eagerness? Why not become eager immediately?" That is intelligence. You are German or Australian or... (end) Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst Prabhupāda: Would you like to record or not? George Harrison: Don't mind. Prabhupāda: Give this garland. Śyāmasundara: Haribol. George Harrison: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa's blessings. George Harrison: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a verse in Bhagavad*-gītā, *John Lennon: I've read bits of the Bhagavad*-gītā. I don't know which version it was. There's so many different translations. *Prabhupāda: There are different translations. Therefore I have given this edition, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. There are interpretations. In many translations they have got interpretations. Not only in other parts of the world, but in our own country also. Just like Mahatma Gandhi. He was a great man. He has also interpreted. But the point is interpretation where required. Now, here is a fountain pen box. Everyone knows this is a fountain pen box. But if I say, "No, this is something else." That is my interpretation. Is that very nice thing? (Chuckling) Similarly, interpretation is required when things are not understood clearly. If everybody can understand this box is a fountain pen box, where is the necessity of interpretation? This is the first thing. So Bhagavad-gītā is so clear. It is just like sunlight. Sunlight does not require any other lamp. For example, I'll give you, in the first verse, John Lennon: Have I been there? Prabhupāda: You have been there? John Lennon: Yes. Not to that place. Hrishikesh we went to. *Prabhupāda: Oh, Hrishikesh. Hrishikesh is also one of the pilgrimage. And there is similarly Kurukṣetra near Delhi. Still that place is there. And that is a place of pilgrimage from the Vedic times. In the Vedas also it is stated, kuru*-kṣetre dharmam yajayet. If you want to function in a religious ceremony, just go to Kurukṣetra. So it is a place of pilgrimage. Now the name is there. The adjective dharma-kṣetra, it is from Vedic age. Then the Pāṇḍavas and the Kauravas, they are historical persons. The history is there, Mahābhārata. Then where is the question of interpreting Kurukṣetra as "this body," and the Pāṇḍavas as "the senses"? Where do you get this opportunity to interpret? So these things are going on. But we object, "Why should you interpret in that way when the facts are there?" That means Bhagavad-gītā is very popular book. One has got his own philosophy. He wants to prove it through Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. There are so many interpretations, 664. Everyone thinks that "I can interpret in my own way." Why? Why this should be? We say, "No. You cannot interpret." Then what is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? The author of Bhagavad-gītā did not leave it for being interpreted by a third-class man. He is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord. He said everything clearly. Why an ordinary man should interpret His word? That is our objection. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. The MacMillan Company wanted to shorten. (Chuckling) Because they are merchants. They wanted to minimize. Otherwise the book was very big. They wanted to make it only four hundred. Therefore half of the ślokas was not nicely explained. But next time we are going to publish in large and revised edition of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. We must explain everything. So the Bhagavad-gītā is very, very high-class philosophy and theology. Social, political, science-everything is there. It is very nice. And everything is clear. It is explained by Kṛṣṇa. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That's all. We have not manufactured anything. Devotee: Come in. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. John Lennon: This is Don's wife Jill who lives here with us too. *Prabhupāda: Oh, very glad to see you. Be happy and make all others happy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. That is Vedic idea. Everyone be happy. That is the benediction. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says also the same thing, that let this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement be preached in every village, in every town of the world. People will be happy. That is His foretelling. So any missions, any high ideals, should be preached just to make everyone happy. Because in the material existence, there is no happiness. That is a fact. There cannot be any happiness. This place is not meant for happiness because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find the Lord Himself says this is a place, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It is a place of miseries, this material world. And aśāśvatam, and temporary. Everything is temporary. Even if you accept, "All right. Whatever miserable is there, I'll accept this," that is also, has no value. Even if you accept, nature will not allow you to accept it and remain there. Aśāśvatam. You have to leave. So Kṛṣṇa says, mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ: [Bg. 8.15] "If somebody comes to Me, then he hasn't got to return back to this miserable condition of life which is not only miserable but temporary." So we should understand that. Nature is so cruel. In America, President Kennedy, he was thought to be the most fortunate man, happy man, young man, was elected President, nice wife, children, honor all over the world-(snaps finger)-within a second, finished. Temporary. Now what is his condition? Where he is? If life is eternal, if living entity is eternal, where he has gone? What he is doing? Is he happy or he is distressed? Or he's born in America or China? Nobody can say. But it is a fact that as living entity, he's eternal, he's existing. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā philosophy. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. After destruction of this body the living entity is not destroyed. He is there. That we can understand. Just like in your childhood, you had a small body. That body is no more, but you are existing. So it is natural, when this body will not exist, I will exist in another body. It is not very difficult to understand. So this theory that body is eternal..., soul is eternal and body is temporary, that's a fact. Therefore this life, this present life, is meant for manufacturing the next body. That is Vedic knowledge. We are creating... Just like a boy. He is studying very nicely. So he's creating next body, a very educated young body. By education he can get nice job, nice place, nice position. So he's creating his next body. Similarly, we are creating our next body according to our karma. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You create a body so that you can come to Me." Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. The whole Vedic philosophy is that if you want to go to some planet-just like people are trying to go to moon planet. So you have to create a body like that. You cannot go in this body. They're attempting to go with this body. That will be failure. It will be not possible. In every planet the atmosphere, the..., everything is different. So you have to create a different body to go to a particular type of planet. There are millions and thousands of planets. Moon planet is one of them. Kṛṣṇa says, John Lennon: Which? This picture? *Gurudāsa: Rasa*-līlā dancing with the gopīs. That's the..., with Rādhā. Dancing with Rādhā. Pictures like that. John Lennon: Walls of the temple room? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we can go there. Join with Kṛṣṇa and dance happily without any botheration. Hayagrīva : Haribol. Prabhupāda: (laughs) We can have so many connection with Kṛṣṇa, as friend, as servant, as parents, as lover, whatever you like. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. You cultivate that consciousness, how you like Kṛṣṇa. He is prepared to accept you in that capacity. And that makes a solution of all problems. Here nothing is permanent, nothing is blissful, and nothing is full of knowledge. Here... This year we held examination on bhakti-śāstrī, and here is the answer of a girl, Himavati. She has written very nice. I have read it. So we are training these boys and girls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the Kṛṣṇa science. Anyone can take advantage of it. It is a very nice thing. So you also try to understand, and if it is nice, you take it up. You are after something very nice. Is my proposal unreasonable? (chuckles) You are all intelligent boys. Try to understand it. Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: And you have got a very good talent, music. Na vidyā sangīta uttamam. The Vedic mantras were all through music. Sāma Veda. Sāma Veda is full of music. Devotee : Begin any time. Prabhupāda: (singing slowly:) John Lennon: Following? Yoko Ono: We don't follow anything. We are just living. George Harrison: We've done meditation. Or I do my meditation. I have a mantra meditation. Prabhupāda: This is also mantra. John Lennon: It's not the song, though. George Harrison: No, no. It's chanting. John Lennon: We heard it from Maharishi. A mantra each. Prabhupāda: His mantra is not public. George Harrison: Not out loud. No. John Lennon: No. It's a secret. (laughs) Yoko Ono: If Hare Kṛṣṇa is such a strong, powerful mantra, is there any reason to chant anything else? For instance, you talked about songs and many different mantras. Is there any point in chanting other songs or mantra? *Prabhupāda: No, no. These mantras are also... But Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is specially recommended for this age. And the Vedic mantras, they are also chanted, I told you, with musical, tampura, and they sit down and chant. Nārada Muni, he's chanting always. So chanting through musical instruments, mantras, it is not new introduction. It is from time immemorial. And Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, especially in this age, that is recommended in many Vedic literature, Brahmanda Purāṇa, Kali*-santaraṇa Upaniṣad, Agni Purāṇa, like that. And apart from the statement in the Vedic literature, Lord Caitanya Himself, He preached this mantra. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... And people, public, followed Him. Yes. [break] So anything... Just like a scientist. When he discovers something, it becomes a public property. People may take advantage of it. Similarly, if mantra has got potency, all people should take advantage of it. Why it should be secret? George Harrison: All people can get the mantras that we have, but it's just they must get it from somebody else. We can't give it to them, but it is available for everybody. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mantra, if it is valuable, it is valuable for everybody. Why it should be for a particular person? John Lennon: If all mantras are... All mantras just the name of God. Whether it's a secret mantra or an open mantra, it's all the name of God. So it doesn't really make much difference, does it, which one you sing? *Prabhupāda: No. Just like in drug shop they sell all medicine for disease, curing disease. But still, you have to take doctor's prescription to take a particular type of medicine. They will not supply you. If you go to a drug shop and you say, "I am diseased. You give me any medicine," that is not... He'll ask you, "Where is your prescription?" So similarly, in this age, in Kali-yuga age, this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, is recommended in the śāstras, and great stalwart*-we consider Him the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He preached this. Therefore our principle is everyone should follow. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We should follow the footprints of great authorities. That is our business. The Vedic mantra says, tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ. If you simply try to argue and try to approach the Absolute, it is very difficult, simply by argument and reasoning, because our arguments and reason are limited because our senses are imperfect. [break] So tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ. And scriptures, there are different kinds of scriptures. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Philosophers, every philosopher has got a different opinion, and unless a philosopher defeats other philosopher, he cannot become a big philosopher. So therefore philosophical speculation also will not make a solution. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām. So it is very secret. Then how to get that secret thing? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You simply follow great personalities, how they have achieved success. So our, this Vaiṣṇava philosophy is to follow the great personality, just like Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya Mahāprabhu or ācāryas of His succession, to take shelter of authority and follow. That is recommended in Vedas, that you follow great authorities. That will take you to the ultimate goal. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. So... Kṛṣṇa also recommends in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. This science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness was understood by disciplic succession. Paramparā-prāptam. Imaṁ vivasvavate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: "My dear Arjuna, don't think that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness science I am speaking to you is something new. No." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "It is eternal, and first I spoke to sun-god." Vivasvate. Vivasvān manave prāhuḥ: "And Vivasvān said to his son, Manu." Manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt: "And Manu also transferred this knowledge to his son, Ikṣvāku." Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam: [Bg. 4.2] "In this way, by disciplic succession, it is coming on." Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa: "But in due course of time it is now broken. Therefore I am speaking to you again." So a mantra should be captured from the disciplic succession. According to Vedic injunction, sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te nisphala mataḥ: "If the mantra does not come through disciplic succession, then it will not be active." Viphala. Mantrās te viphalāḥ. Viphala means "will not produce result." Mantrās te viphalāḥ mataḥ. So mantra has to be received through the channel; *then it will act. Mantra cannot be manufactured. Mantra must be from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through disciplic succession, channel. It has to be captured in that way, and then it will act. Sampradāya*-vihīnā ye mantrās te nisphala mataḥ. So according to our Vaiṣṇava sampradāya, the mantra is coming down through four channels. One is coming through Lord Śiva, one is coming through goddess Lakṣmī. Not one, different. One thing is coming in different channel. One through the channel of Brahmā, one through the channel of Lord Śiva, one through the channel of Lakṣmī, and one through the channel of Kumaras. So they are called four sampradāyas. So one has to take mantra, either of these four sampradāyas. Then that mantra is active, and if we perform that mantra in that way, it will act. Sampradāya-vihīnā ye. And if one does not receive this mantra in either of these sampradāya, channels, then viphala, it will not act. It will not give fruit. Yoko Ono: If the mantra itself has such power, does it matter where you receive it, where you take it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is a fact. The example is given just like milk. Milk is nutritious. That's a fact. Everyone knows. But if the milk is touched through the tongue of a serpent, it is no more nutritious. It is poison. Yoko Ono: Well, milk is material. Prabhupāda: No, material. You want to understand through your material senses, we have to give... Yoko Ono: Well, no. I don't have, you don't have to tell me material senses. I mean mantra is not material. It should be something spiritual, and therefore nobody can spoil it, I don't think. I mean, I wonder if anybody can spoil something that is not material. Prabhupāda: But the thing is that if you don't receive the mantra through the proper channel, it may not be mantra. John Lennon: But how would you know, anyway? How are you able to tell, anyway? I mean, for any of your disciples or us or anybody that goes to any spiritual master, how are we to tell... Prabhupāda: Not any spiritual master. John Lennon: True master. How are we to tell one from the other? Prabhupāda: It is not that any spiritual master. Sampradāya. Sampradāya means a particular line of disciplic succession. John Lennon: But, you see, Maharishi said exactly the same thing about his mantra's coming from the Vedic, with seemingly as much authority as you, and he was probably right. So how... It's like having too many fruits on a plate, and you can't only eat two of them. Prabhupāda: No. If mantra is coming down in that way, then it is potency; the potency is there. John Lennon: But Hare Kṛṣṇa is the best one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yoko Ono: Well, if Hare Kṛṣṇa is the best one, what is the reason why we have to bother to even say anything else other than this one? Prabhupāda: You don't require to bother to say anything else. We say that Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient for one's perfection. George Harrison: Surely isn't it like flowers? If somebody may prefer roses and somebody may like carnations better... Isn't it really a matter for the devotee, that one person may find Hare Kṛṣṇa is more beneficial to his spiritual progress, and yet somebody else, some other mantra may be more beneficial? Isn't it like just a matter of taste? Like judging a flower. They're all flowers, but some people may like one better than the other. Prabhupāda: But still, there is distinction. The rose flower is considered better than simply a flower without any flavor. Yoko Ono: In that case I can't... Prabhupāda: Just try to understand this flower example. Yoko Ono: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is all right. You are attracted by some flower, I am attracted by some flower, but amongst the flowers there are distinctions. There are many flowers which has no flavor and many flower has flavor. Yoko Ono: Is that flower that has flavor better than... *Prabhupāda: So therefore attraction for any flower is not the solution of the question. That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Absolute. Anyone wants Him in any way, He also presents Himself in that way. Just like the same example. If you want a yellow flower, never mind whether there is any scent or any flavor or not, so that flower is there. It is for you. That's all. But if anyone wants rose flower, Kṛṣṇa gives him rose flower. But when you make a comparative study which one is better, then rose will be considered better. (chuckling) So ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. That means the Absolute is realized... Of course, varieties there are, but the original division of the Absolute is three: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Now, Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān is the same Absolute. Different names. The jñānis, or the empiric philosophers, they reach or they aim at Brahman, impersonal Brahman. The yogis, they, I mean to say, focus on the Supersoul, Paramātmā. And the devotees, they aim at Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, this Kṛṣṇa and the Supersoul and the impersonal Brahman, they are not different. They are light. They are not darkness. But in the light also, there is difference The example is given: just like sunlight, sun globe and the sun-god. Everywhere you find light. In the sunshine there is light. In sun globe there is light. And what to speak of the predominating deity in the sun-globe? He also must be light; otherwise wherefrom this light comes? So so far light is concerned, everywhere there. But you cannot say because sunshine has come through your window in your room, you cannot say the sun has come. That will be mistake. Sun is many, many miles away. But so far light is concerned, now there is question of degrees of light, intensity of light. So the degrees of spiritual realization in Brahman, degrees of spiritual realization in Paramātmā, and degrees of spiritual realization in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are different. Yoko Ono: But you said about if the milk goes through a serpent's mouth it will produce poison, and, for instance, George just told us about a week ago a very interesting story about a man who had a face of Christ, and in twenty years' time he had a face of Judah. And the Catholic Church and all those churches first probably had good words, and now it's deteriorating. Now, how would you decide, really, that brāhmaṇas are always in a pure state that you speak of, that they would never turn into serpents? Prabhupāda: That you have to become a serious student. Yoko Ono: Well, I mean, what do you mean by serious student? Maybe everybody, all of us are serious anyway. I mean, we're born serious or born, you know, unserious. Prabhupāda: Then you must know what is distinction between Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān, if you are serious student. Yoko Ono: But does it depend on knowledge? I mean, the final judgement that you make? Prabhupāda: Everything depends on knowledge. Without knowledge how can we make progress? Student means to acquire knowledge. Serious student means to acquire knowledge. Yoko Ono: But not always the knowledgeable one are the ones who... *Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot know completely. That is because our knowledge is very imperfect. But still, so far our knowledge is concerned, as far as possible, we should try to understand. Avāṅ mānasa gocaraḥ. This Absolute is so great and unlimited that it is not possible for us to know Him completely. That is not possible. Our senses does not allow. But as far as it is possible, because, after all, we are part and parcel of the Absolute, so all the qualities of the Absolute are there in us, but it is in minute quantity. So that minute quantity is also very great in comparison to material knowledge. Material knowledge is practically no knowledge. It is covered. But when one is liberated, liberated knowledge is certainly very, very great than material knowledge. So Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. These are the statements of Bhāgavata. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. It is... Śabdyate means sounded as Bhagavān, Paramātmā, and Brahman. Now, what are the difference or degrees of knowledge? Brahman knowledge, Paramātmā knowledge, and Bhagavān knowledge. The same thing. The knowledge of sunshine, the knowledge of sun globe, and the knowledge of this predominating deity in the sun globe. So knowledge of sunshine is not knowledge of the predominating deity of the sun globe. There is another example in this connection. Just like if you see one hill from a long*-distant place, first of all you see just like it is a cloud. Then, if you proceed further, you'll see something green. And if you enter into that hill you'll see, oh, there are so many varieties. There are animals, there are men, there are trees. But from the distant, you'll see just like a cloud. So although the same thing... Similarly, Absolute, when visioned from the Brahman point of view, it is just like cloud. Absolute when visioned as Paramātmā, it is just like something green. And Absolute when realized as the Supreme Person, it is just like you enter into the hill and see everything in detail. So although the focus is the same, the Brahmavādī and the Paramātmāvadī and the devotee's focus is the same, but due to their respective position the realization is different. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā you'll see, John Lennon: Yes. That's the one we've read. *Prabhupāda: So why he's taking Kṛṣṇa's book as authority? Bhagavad*-gītā is Kṛṣṇa's book. Everyone knows. Why he's taking Kṛṣṇa's book? George Harrison: Well, he didn't. He just translated it into English. Prabhupāda: Why? Unless he has got some respect for that book? John Lennon: But I've also read another, part of another translation by Yogananda, Paramahamsa Yogananda. Prabhupāda: Everyone will have to take Kṛṣṇa's book first to prove their authority. Yoko Ono: But, er... What... *Prabhupāda: Vivekananda has taken, Aurobindo has taken, Dr. Radhakrishnan has taken, Mahatma Gandhi... There are thousands and thousands. So why do they take Bhagavad*-gītā? George Harrison: So that we can read it in English. *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of English. It is the question of the thoughts. English it may be or Parsee it may be. That doesn't matter. Why do they take shelter of the thoughts of Bhagavad*-gītā unless they accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority? Why they quote from Bhagavad-gītā? So why not directly Bhagavad-gītā? If Bhagavad-gītā is the authority for everyone, why not Bhagavad-gita as it is? That is our proposition. *George Harrison: But Bhagavad*-gītā as it is is Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: No, we have made English. George Harrison: Yes, but they all make it English. John Lennon: But that must be also a translation, mustn't it? Whoever puts it into English. I mean... *Prabhupāda: So you also read any Bhagavad*-gītā translation only. You don't read the original. George Harrison: Well, which is the original? It's the same as the Bible. Prabhupāda: Original is there. Origin is Sanskrit. Yoko Ono: It's in Sanskrit, but we don't read Sanskrit. John Lennon: Yes, but it's pointless, me reading Sanskrit, because I don't understand Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to take translation. George Harrison: So then there's all, a hundred translations. John Lennon: And interpretations. George Harrison: Which is again like all the roses and all the different flowers. It's a matter of taste as to which one. Because everybody claims their version is the best. All the versions I've read, they all say... And sometimes I get something from one which I don't get from something else. Devotee: Did you ever read any without any commentary at all? Just straight? George Harrison: Just straight translation? Devotee: Without any commentary. George Harrison: Just the Sanskrit, you mean? Devotee: No. Just the translation. George Harrison: Well, that's really what they are, you know. They all have a translation. Some of them have a commentary as well, on top of that. But just again the translations, you know, it depends on who's translating as to what the translation is. Devotee: That's all right. So you have to go through an authority. Someone who's... John Lennon: But how do you know one authority from the other? George Harrison: The world is full of authorities, really, you know. (Prabhupāda chuckling) Yoko Ono: There's five hundred authorities, you know, who... John Lennon: I found that the best thing for myself is to take a little bit from here and a little bit from there and a little bit from there. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Yoko Ono: I mean, we're not just saying that. We want to ask your advice on that. In other words, what is your answer to that. Your saying there's five hundred versions. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā is seven hundred verses. Yoko Ono: All right, so seven hundred. I don't know. But what I mean is you use the word authority, saying why would he translate that into English without authority? Now, what is the authority and who has the authority? Prabhupāda: Authority is the original text. Yoko Ono: Yes, but everybody's translating from the original text, I'm sure you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yoko Ono: So what's the difference between one and the other? *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that sampradāya*-vihīnā ye mantrās te viphala mataḥ. If we then don't take from the disciplic succession of the authority... Just like Kṛṣṇa. Now, take for example. We have explained this in our introduction, that nobody is authority. Don't care. Kṛṣṇa is authority because Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. That you cannot deny. Can you deny that? Yoko Ono: Is Kṛṣṇa translated... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is authority. Kṛṣṇa is authority. Yoko Ono: Yes, all right. Did He translate it into English? Prabhupāda: Just hear me. Yoko Ono: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is authority, you accept? Yoko Ono: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is that all right? John Lennon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you see what Kṛṣṇa says. That is authority. Why should you hear anyone else? Now, what Kṛṣṇa has said, to understand that, that you have to search out if you are serious student. John Lennon: How do we know if somebody else, Yogananda, Maharsi, and all these different people that have translated it, how are we to tell that their version isn't Kṛṣṇa's word from your version? Prabhupāda: Therefore I say if you are serious student, then you study Sanskrit, original. John Lennon: Study Sanskrit? Oh, now you're talking. George Harrison: But Vivekananda said that books and rituals and dogmas and temples are secondary details, anyway. He said they're not the most important thing, anyway. You don't have to read the book in order to have the perception. Prabhupāda: Then why Vivekananda wrote so many books? (laughter) George Harrison: Well, it's the same as in the *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: No, no. He said there is no use of books. Then why he wrote so many books? George Harrison: But in Hrishikesh, when we meditated for a long time, one man got tired of meditation, and he thought... He made the excuse to read the *Gītā* so he could come out of meditation, and he opened the *Gītā* and it said, "Don't read books. Meditate." Prabhupāda: Who says? George Harrison: The *Gītā* said it. Prabhupāda: "Don't read books"? George Harrison: It said, "Don't read books. Meditate." Prabhupāda: Where? Yoko Ono: No, but you see, you... *Prabhupāda: He said, brahma*-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumadbhir viniścitaiḥ [Bg. 13.5]. He refers that "This scientific knowledge, the Absolute Truth, is explained very nicely in Brahma-sūtra, Vedānta-sūtra." He refers to the book. Another place Kṛṣṇa says, Yoko Ono: Then, in that sense, you see, for instance... I see the same pattern in what you have said. For instance, you said that Hare Kṛṣṇa is the most superpowerful word, and if that is true, then why do you bother to utter any other words? I mean, is it necessary? And why do you encourage us, saying that we're songwriters and all,... Prabhupāda: No... Yoko Ono: ...to write any song but Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is cleansing process. Yoko Ono: Yes. Prabhupāda: So actually one who chants Hare Kṛṣṇa regularly, he hasn't got to do anything. Actually it is the position. He doesn't require to read any book. Yoko Ono: Yes. Then why do you say that it's all right and all that? I mean is it a compromise or what? Prabhupāda: What is that? Yoko Ono: I mean the fact that we are doing songwriting and all that. It's a waste of time, isn't it? Without Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, not waste of time. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was chanting simply. Even He was criticized by great sannyāsīs that "You have taken sannyāsa. You do not read Vedānta. You are simply chanting and dancing." He was criticized. But the thing is, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu met such stalwart scholars, He was not lagging behind. Similarly, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. There is no doubt about it. But if somebody wants to understand this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra through philosophy, through study, through Vedānta, we are not lacking. We have got books. It is not that Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is insufficient, therefore we are recommending books. No. Not like that. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. But... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was chanting, but when there was a Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, when there was a Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, oh, He was ready to argue with him with Vedānta. So we should not be dumb. If somebody comes to argue with Vedānta philosophy, then we must be prepared. When we are preaching, there will be so many people, different types of people will come. Otherwise Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is sufficient. Sufficient. It does not require any education, any reading, anything. Simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and you get the highest perfection. That's a fact. Śyāmasundara: You were saying earlier today that we can also supplement our Kṛṣṇa consciousness while we're working, hammering the nails. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So chanting along with devotional service, performing our duties while concentrating on Kṛṣṇa, is also part of the process, isn't it? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything, any way. The whole idea is manāḥ kṛṣṇe niveṣayet. Mind should be fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is the process. Either you go through philosophy or through arguments or through chanting. Any way. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ [Bg. 6.47]. Of all kinds of yogis. In the... You might have read it. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. I think Maharsi has translated this Bhagavad-gītā, and in the sixth chapter...? You have read it? George Harrison: Oh, his translation of *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Sixth chapter, he's asking. George Harrison: Yes. I haven't read all of it. Part of it. *Prabhupāda: So in the sixth chapter, last verse, you'll find yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatena... You have got our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is here? No? How is that, you don't keep Bhagavad-gītā? You'll find it is clearly stated that all yogis, the one yogi whose mind is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa, he is first-class yogi. Yoginam api sarveṣāṁ. Sarveṣāṁ, of all yogis. There are different kinds of yogis. So yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata: "One whose mind is fixed up in Me," or Kṛṣṇa, āntarātmanā, "within the heart," śraddhāvān, "and is devotee," and bhajate, "and serves Me, oh," sa me yuktatamo mataḥ, "he is the first-class yogi." Tama. Tama means most, supermost. Yuktatamo. Yogi, better yogi and the supermost yogi. John Lennon: Whose is that little purple paperback *Gītā* that we all have? A light grey purple? Devotee : That's the one. John Lennon: Oh, that's the one? I've got that in my office. There's another one by that guy, that Spanish guy? (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: One thing that Prabhupāda was explaining, I think, that didn't quite get cleared up was how do we discern which translation of the *Gītā* is most authoritative. Well, he answered when he said that Kṛṣṇa is the authority. So we have to take it in a channel from Kṛṣṇa, and there are only four lines of disciplic succession that come from Kṛṣṇa. And of these, only one is existing now, or is it two? Yoko Ono: What do you mean by "channel"? Is it through hereditary or what? Śyāmasundara: Lines of disciplic succession. Yes, it's hereditary. Swamiji's spiritual master... *Prabhupāda: Just like channel you'll understand very easily. You send some money order to your friend. So from which channel he'll receive? He'll receive through the post office, not through any other channel. So if the postal peon delivers it, you are confident, "Yes, the money has come." So why you give the importance to the postal peon? Because he's representative of the post office. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original authority. So the Kṛṣṇa's representative is the authority. And who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Who is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So therefore the devotee of Kṛṣṇa is authority, at least of Bhagavad*-gītā. So you have to receive through the devotee of Kṛṣṇa about Bhagavad-gītā. One who does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, how he can preach Bhagavad-gītā? This is common sense. Jill: Will you excuse me? I must put my baby to bed. Good night. Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) Take some prasādam. Jill: Oh, thank you. John Lennon: Well, who says who's in the line of descent? You know, I mean, it's just like royalty. Who's who? (All talk at once) Yoko Ono: That's what I was talking about. John Lennon: I mean Yogananda claims... George Harrison: His guru's, guru's, guru's... John Lennon: All his guru's, guru's, guru's, gurus, like that. Maharsi claimed all his guru's guru's gurus went back. I mean, how are we to know? I mean, it's a matter of just deciding, you know. Prabhupāda: But Maharsi does not say anything about Kṛṣṇa. George Harrison: Doesn't he? No, his guru is the Śaṅkarācārya. John Lennon: Which is Śaṅkara's teaching? But they all talk about God, and Kṛṣṇa's just a name for God, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever he may be, he does not go up to Kṛṣṇa. (chuckles) George Harrison: Personality, anyway, of... John Lennon: Well, that's what he used to say in exactly the same way, about anybody else. *Prabhupāda: No, no. He cannot be because he does not speak about anything Kṛṣṇa. A peon comes, he does not know anything about post office*-what kind of peon he is? Yoko Ono: No, but his post office... He was talking about his post office. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot create post office. Post office one. Government post office. Yoko Ono: Yes, of course. I'm sure there's only one post office. Prabhupāda: You cannot create that he is... Somebody says, "I belong to another post office." Then he is at once unauthorized. (Everyone talking at once) Yoko Ono: No, no. He saying that his post office is the one post office. Devotee: Then why... Obviously not satisfied yet with what they found in (indistinct) that post office. Why have you come here, then? If you have been satisfied with that... You have to test. John Lennon: Yeah, we've gotta go around. Yoko never met Maharsi. We're asking advice of how to, you know, how to stop. You can go on forever. I know people that have been wandering around for years, seeking gurus and spiritual teachers. I mean it's doing them all quite well. Prabhupāda: Bring prasādam. John Lennon: I mean, we can only judge on a material level by looking at your disciples and looking at other peoples' disciples and looking at ourselves, you know. And, of course, if there's thirty disciples, seven of them look fairly spiritual, another ten look okay, and the others just look as though they're having trouble... You know. So there's no... Yoko Ono: It's the same thing. John Lennon: We still have to keep sifting through like sand to see whose got the best matter, or... Prabhupāda: Try to understand this, that regarding authority, you say that how to find out the authority. To answer this question, Kṛṣṇa is authority. There is no doubt. Because if Kṛṣṇa is an authority, Maharsi takes also Kṛṣṇa's book and Aurobindo takes Kṛṣṇa's book, Vivekananda takes Kṛṣṇa's book, Dr. Radhakrishnan takes Kṛṣṇa's book. So Kṛṣṇa is authority. Śaṅkarācārya also takes Kṛṣṇa's book. You know Śaṅkarācārya's commentary on Kṛṣṇa? And in that commentary he accepts, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28], sa bhagavān svayam kṛṣṇaḥ: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He accepts. You say that Maharsi accepts Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. George Harrison: Yes, but it's like the Bible which came... Prabhupāda: Now, don't go to Bible. We're talking of Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Just try to understand. Yoko Ono: Yes, but, you see, the religion is bringing out (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just see that Kṛṣṇa is the authority. He's accepted by everyone. You say Maharsi belongs to the Śaṅkara sampradāya. Śaṅkarācārya accepts Kṛṣṇa. Not as authority... He says, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He says this very word in his commentary. Gurudāsa: Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam. Prabhupāda: So authority means one who has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord. Then he is authority. Yoko Ono: Now, who said that? *Prabhupāda: Everyone says. All authorities. Śaṅkarācārya says. Rāmānujācārya says. Those who are really authorities, those disciplic succession is going on. In India, there are five sects. Actually two sects. Vaiṣṇava and Śaṅkara. So the Vaiṣṇava accept Kṛṣṇa as the authority, and Śaṅkara accepted Kṛṣṇa authority. There are no third sect. Practically, actually, there is one sect, the Vaiṣṇava. Anyway, later on, later ages, Śaṅkarācārya established his sect. But Śaṅkarācārya accepts that kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam: [SB 1.3.28] "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," in his writing. And at his last stage of his life he said, "You rascal fools, what you are dealing with? That will not save you." Bhaja govindam: "You just worship Kṛṣṇa." Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mūḍha*-mate. Mūḍha-mate means "You rascal." (laughter) John Lennon: Means what? Gurudāsa: "You rascal." Prabhupāda: "You rascal, just worship Kṛṣṇa and become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Govinda." Yoko Ono: But every sect says that... Prabhupāda: No, there is no question, "every sect." Kṛṣṇa is the center of every sect. If Kṛṣṇa is the center, then there is no question of every sect. Only Kṛṣṇa sect. John Lennon: Does Kṛṣṇa mean God? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means God, and God means Kṛṣṇa. John Lennon: So for the Bible or any other holy book, they all talk about one God, but they all have many ways of... Prabhupāda: That's all right. George Harrison: Personalities. John Lennon: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. John Lennon: It's still just the one Being everywhere, in all the books. But they all have... Why isn't Hare Kṛṣṇa or something similar in the Bible, then? I mean, that's the only other one I know because I was brought up with the Bible. Gurudāsa: It is. In the 150th Psalm it says, "Praise the Lord with every breath. Praise the Lord with drum and flute." John Lennon: But they haven't got very good tunes, you know. I mean, they haven't been passing on any good chants, have they? Mukunda: They don't have the aural disciplic succession with the Bible. It's broken. John Lennon: It's just a matter of archetype (?). I mean, would it be as effective to chant, "Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, Hail Lord Jesus"? Devotee: If you're sincere, sure. John Lennon: But it's a waste of time of doing it unsincerely, isn't it? Yoko Ono: Yeah, it depends on sincerity. Prabhupāda: No, no. Lord Jesus says that he is son of God. He's son of God. Yamunā: Your cab's here, Śyāmasundara. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What is that? You want to hear? Come on, sit down. So there is no difference. Lord Jesus Christ says that he is son of God. So there is no quarrel between God and God's son. So he says that "Love God," and Kṛṣṇa says, "Love Me." The same thing. (laughs) If you say that "You love me," and your wife says that "Love my husband," there is no difference of opinion. Yoko Ono: But about the knowledge, I'm a bit worried about it, if you have to, you know, learn Sanskrit and all that, and that's the only way to get enlightenment... I mean, what do you do about people who are not sort of skillful in learning languages and things like that? Would that not at all... I mean, I thought that it... John Lennon: It's translated, anyway. Prabhupāda: Translation is there. John Lennon: So you've got to take a risk. Yoko Ono: But he said, then why don't you go and... John Lennon: So then you've got to take the risk of reading a translated one. Gurudāsa: So you see many devotees of the authority, and then you decide which is the most sincere devotee. And just like in the ninth chapter He says, "You will come to Me." Now, if I asked you for a glass of water and you poured it on the wall, I'd think you were silly. But if you brought it to me, then I knew you were in knowledge, we were having a reciprocal relationship. Therefore, if the devotee is saying, "Worship Kṛṣṇa," and not putting so much of his own ideas in, but just saying, "Worship Kṛṣṇa," all throughout, as Swamiji does, then you can know he's a sincere devotee. Prabhupāda: No, no. One thing you try to understand. Why these people, if Kṛṣṇa is not the supreme authority, why they are taking Kṛṣṇa's book and translating? Why don't you try to understand? George Harrison: I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa isn't the Supreme. I believe that. Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean to say, even there are other sects, as you say, Maharsi. They accept also indirectly Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority. Because if we say Maharsi belongs to Śaṅkara sampradāya... George Harrison: Yeah, but we had a misunderstanding before about the translation of the Sanskrit *Gītā* into English, and I was saying that there's many versions, and I think we thought you were trying to say that your version, your translation, was the only authority and that the other translations... But we didn't really have understanding as to the identity of Kṛṣṇa. Room Conversation -- September 24, 1969, London Guest (1) (Indian man): When digging the pile? Prabhupāda: You are digging somewhere, and again make constructing somewhere, and then, after a time, you are leaving both and going away, shifting for another activity. Because you'll not be allowed to stay... Guest (1): The same place. Prabhupāda: ...same place. By nature's law you'll have to quit. Guest (1): Quit. Prabhupāda: Just like... What to speak of ordinary man. President Kennedy. Oh, how much labor he had to undergo to occupy that post, how much money he spent to become president. But he had to quit his family, his wife, his state, his post. So this is going on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. For sometimes we are engaged in this way; *then again we are annihilated. Again begin another life, enter into another mother's womb, construct another body, then come out, then again begin work, again the same thing, digging and piling, digging and piling, again going away. Is that very good business? This is the karmīs. Karmīs means worker, fruitive worker. They want some result for their work. They are called karmīs. So the karmīs are engaged in this way. (Doorbell rings) In Bhagavad*-gītā these karmīs have been described as rascals, mūḍha. Mūḍha. Because they do not know why they are digging, why they are piling and why they are leaving again everything. You can sit here, in the corner. I, I... Ask these boys, yes. This is the problem. The whole world is engaged very busy. Any city you go, they're very busy. The motor car is going this way, that way, and everywhere is constructing and so many things are going on. But if you put this question, "Why you are doing this business, digging somewhere and piling somewhere, again leaving the whole thing?"... (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. They have no answer. Guest (1): They might say it's a rotation. They just have to do it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): Do some work. Prabhupāda: But do you like to do that? Suppose you are making very nice arrangement in this apartment to live. And again, after, say, one hour you are asked, "Now quit this place." So are you not disgusted? Guest (1): Yes, I am interested. *Prabhupāda: So why this point is not coming? This is ignorance. Just like animals, they do not know why they are laboring so hard. Just an ass. An ass is piled with cloth, you know? In your India. But whose cloth, why he's so much bearing burden? For a little grass only? That he does not know. Therefore he's called ass. Ass is working so hard, but he's not, he does not know if the cloth does not belong to him, but he's piled up with... (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. ...tons of cloth and he's bearing. He's bearing. Therefore they have been... These karmīs who do not know for whom he's working, they have been described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mūḍha. Mūḍha means ass. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhaḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam aśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. These things are there; *in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find. Wherefore you are coming? Gurudāsa: Bury Place. Prabhupāda: So now people do not wish to consider also this point, that "If I am eternal, if I am changing my place, my dress, my occupation every fifty years or ten years or twelve years according to the dress..." The cats and dogs, they live for ten years. The cows live for twenty years, and the man lives for, say, hundred years. Trees lives for thousands years. But everyone has to change. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. As we have to change our old dress, similarly, this body has to be changed. And we are changing. Changing every moment. That is a fact. This boy will grow also some day like you, like me. This body will not stay. I had a body like this, say, fifty years ago or sixty years ago, but that body is now missing. I have got a different body. So everyone is changing body in this way. We do not know where that body gone, but ultimately also, we shall change, and we shall enter another body, and again we have to begin new set of work, leaving all aside. Suppose this life I was President Kennedy; *next life, even if I am born in America next door to President Kennedy's house, nobody will recognize me that "Here is your property. Come on. Enjoy." No. Property's gone. Again he has to make another property. This is going on. So the people do not think that "What I am doing? What I have gained? What is my ultimate aim of life?" This is missing. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍha duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam aśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. People are not very serious. They're so much in ignorance that they: "All right, let it happen, whatever may happen. We may enjoy life." But this is not very good position. One should be, at least in human form of life, one should be very sober, considerate (of) what is happening. So out of many fruitive workers like this, one becomes wise: "Why I am doing this?" This is wisdom. That is the platform of knowledge, to inquire that "What is my position? What I am? What is my aim of life?" That is the position of the jṇānī, persons who are wise. And one, when one is fully wise, then bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], after many, many births, when one becomes fully wise, bahunam janmanam ante jñānavān, when he's actually wise, jñānavān, then māṁ prapadyate, Kṛṣṇa says, "He comes and surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. But such person, such great soul, is very rare. Generally people are mūḍhas. So from mūḍhas we have to be elevated to the position of mahātmā. So mahātmā... And who is mahātmā? That is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Mahātmās, those who are great souls, they are not under the spell of this material energy. They are not attracted by these activities of piling and digging and leaving. They are interested with Kṛṣṇa, Vasudeva. That is mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg. 9.13]. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ. Bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. Their only business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is the highest perfection of life. If one is engaged in the business of satisfying Kṛṣṇa instead of satisfying himself... Most people, they are engaged in satisfying themselves. Everyone in this material world. The so-called politicians, they promise that "I shall give you so many things." But actually, he is trying to occupy the post for his satisfaction. These are all false promises. Why politicians? Even in our family life we maintain wife, children. Why? For my satisfaction. As soon as there is discrepancy in my satisfaction I divorce my wife. Or the wife sees that "This husband is useless." She also divorces. So everywhere, the whole material world is going on on the basis of sense satisfaction. So the sense satisfaction platform is called kāma, lust. And one has to elevate oneself from this sense satisfaction platform to the platform of satisfying Kṛṣṇa, service to Kṛṣṇa. (Aside:) Does he mind you? (?) So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to teach people how to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Yes? Any questions? Devotee girl: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yamunā: What does the śloka in Bhagavad*-gītā that says, action in inaction and inaction in action... Prabhupāda: Yes, inaction means we do not enjoy the result of your action. Jaya. Wherefrom? Gurudāsa: I don't know. *Prabhupāda: Where is the original stock? ISKCON Boston, or maybe tapes. [break] He's Kṛṣṇa. Ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya [Cc. Ādi 5.142]. (Hindi) [break] One God, Kṛṣṇa. One scripture, Bhagavad*-gītā. One mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa. And one engagement, Kṛṣṇa's service. That's all. (end) Discussion with Guests -- December 23, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: So we have got our class here. You can announce. [break] *Satsvarūpa: Swami Bhaktivedanta is speaking three times a week in Allston at the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple at least for the month of May. We've just begun the Bhagavad-gītā, First Chapter, first verse Monday and that will be resumed again next Monday because of Friday engagement at Boston College. So you're all invited to come and participate there. It's a very opulent little temple with lots of paintings and, of course, Swamiji. And at this temple every Sunday we have a love feast of very sumptuous Indian delicacies, and you're invited to that. Guest (1): At what time? Satsvarūpa: It's at noon every Sunday. Guest (1): Where is it? Satsvarūpa: The temple is in Allston. 95 Glenville Avenue. If you're taking the Boston College trolley you get off at Harvard and Commonwealth and it's one block up on Harvard. Glenville is parallel to Commonwealth. You can get there by bus also, to Union Square. Guest (1): What time are the class? *Satsvarūpa: The classes are at 7. We have some fliers to hand out to you. [break] Swami's there Monday, Wednesday, [break] ...next Monday. So this is a real class with real progress. We're studying Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. [break] I'm going to go around with a tambourine upside down for a collection. That will help us to keep this program going nicely in this area. Also, very important, the Swami will leave this area as soon as another city gives him something more attractive. Attractive means to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] Prabhupāda: That you have to test. Now I have given you this one formula. By following any guru or any principle, if you actually develop your love of God, then it is nice. Otherwise it is useless waste of time. That is the test. But they, so far I know, these yogis, they are themselves God. They say that everyone is God. And who is dog? So I think it is not very congenial. How everyone can be God? Then what is the meaning of God? Guest (1): (inaudible) Prabhupāda: If everyone is God then what is the meaning of God? You must give definition of God. If you do not, then you do not know what is God. Therefore you are asking... Guest (1): (inaudible) *Prabhupāda: So it is a great science. It is not bogus propaganda. And based on Bhagavad*-gītā and Vedic literatures. Not that it is imaginary. No. There is...(inaudible), realized persons. There is chance of...(inaudible). So if you are here now, take advantage of this great science. And we are prepared to submit... (many people talking) Guest (2) (Indian man): I want to love everyone. Prabhupāda: Then you... That is bogus. You cannot love everybody. If you love God, then you can love everybody. Because God is everything. So just like if you pour water on the root... Guest (2): If God is everything, then why don't you, not loving one by one? Why...? Prabhupāda: Yes. But you... That is... Just like if you love one tree, then you have to pour water on the root. Not that every leaf. If you want to maintain your body, then you have to supply foodstuff in the stomach. Not to your eyes. Not to your ear. When you get a nice cake, you don't put it here. You put it here. Why? That is the process. There are nine holes in your body. Why do you put in this hole? Guest (2): Yes, but... Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. Guest (2): Well, I agree with you, but... Prabhupāda: You have to follow the real process; then you'll get it. That is love.(?) Guest (2): You have to go to the root but in the meantime we don't ignore everything else. I mean... Prabhupāda: If you ignore the root and you take the leaf you simply spoil your time. Guest (2): No, but what I wanted to say is that why can't love of the God and love of matter go and rise up to...? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you love God, you love matter and God... Guest (2): Then you said that the technique, that you decide as to whether you are succeeding is, you'll find out whether a technique is the best or not when your love for God will increase and love for matter will decrease. Prabhupāda: No. In relationship with God... What is matter? Matter is another manifestation of God's energy. Just like if you love yourself, your body, then naturally you love your finger, the part of the body. Therefore God is the supreme whole. If you love God, then you can understand that I have to love everybody. Guest (3) (Indian man): What is God? Prabhupāda: What is God? God... Can you define God? Guest (3): No. Guest (2): I think the trouble is... God is this... Guest (3): Is God supposed to be energy or is God supposed to be... Prabhupāda: Energy is God's energy. Just like sun and sunshine. Sunshine is the energy of sun. Just try to understand. The energy, sunshine, and the sun is not different. But still if you are satisfied with the energy sunshine, it is not sun. Try to understand this philosophy. Guest (3): Are you saying that energy is God? God is energy? *Prabhupāda: Energy, being nondifferent from God, in one sense, it is God, but energy is not God at the same time. The same example. Just like sun and the sunshine. Sunshine is the energy of the sun, but sunshine, if it enters in your room, if you think that "Sun has entered into my room," that is wrong. But sunshine is not different from the sun. Similarly... That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagat avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni... [Bg. 9.4]. [break] "Everything is resting in Me." That means in His energy. But not that everything is God. Guest (3): It would appear that to claim that you can reach eternal bliss or I don't know what else you might call it, by just chanting, it seems to be too easy. *Prabhupāda: That is one process of self*-realization. There are different process of self-realization. For this age, when people are less intelligent, this process is right. Guest (2): ...what you are doing by chanting is kind of... Prabhupāda: You chant and you will understand. If you have no child, then how can you understand what is the labor of producing a child? Guest (3): But then it is like saying that if you haven't ever leaped into a well, you don't know what will happen to you if you leap into a well. Prabhupāda: First of all you do not know yourself. The first ignorance is that you are identifying yourself with this body, which you are not. First of all try to understand yourself, then you will understand what is God. You do not know yourself. Guest (3): But I am God, right? I am God. You are God too. Prabhupāda: You are dog. Guest (3): But you are me and I am you. We are both God. Right? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest (3): Why not? Prabhupāda: You are not God because God... You do not know what is the meaning of God. What do you mean by God? First of all define. Guest (3): Everything is God. Prabhupāda: If you apply that definition, then you are God. First of all define what is God. Guest (3): God is everything. God is it. Prabhupāda: That is not the definition. God is not everything. Guest (3): And it is God. It is all it. Prabhupāda: I say everything is God's energy. Everything is not God. Guest (3): Everything is not God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the same example I gave immediately that the sunshine and the sun. Sunshine is not different from the sun. Guest (2): How can the sun itself be different from it's energy? Sunshine is energy, sun is energy, and both of them... Prabhupāda: No. This is an example. Sunshine is also energy. Everything material is an energy of the Lord. That's all right. But I'm giving you the example that sunshine and the sun is one, but at the same time different, simultaneously. You cannot accept sunshine as the sun. Suppose you are in the sunshine, you cannot say that you are in the sun planet. Guest (3): But it's all the same. Prabhupāda: No. Why all the same? Why all the same? Guest (3): Of course. It's all the same. Sure. Prabhupāda: If you go to the sun, you... You cannot go. You have no imagination what is sun, although you see it. How can I say that sunshine and sun is all the same? Guest (3): No. You don't have to have imagination. You have to have insight. That's... That's... Prabhupāda: What is that insight? Do you think that sunshine and sun, they can be, is one? Guest (3): Everything is the same. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot say that, that the temperature of the sun and the temperature of the sunshine is the same. Guest (2): No. But just because you have two different kinds of energies, why do you have to differentiate them? Essentially what he was trying to say... Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. That is intelligence. One energy is acting as cooling, and the same energy is acting as heating. Why do you say it is heat and it is cool? Guest (3): It's all the same thing. Heat and cool is the same thing. Prabhupāda: Why do you say the same thing? It is not the same thing. Guest (2): Of course, it is the same thing. Guest (3): Everything is "it." It's all it. Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. Cold is cold, heat is heat. Only it is acting. You are talking on the material platform. You are not spiritual. You don't talk nonsense. (laughter) No. We have got enough time. Guest (3): I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just trying to understand, because from what I understand of it there is no difference between... Prabhupāda: Just try to understand... Guest (3): No wait. Wait. Just one moment. Cause and effect are all the same thing. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Guest (3): Yes. Sure. Devotee: What do you mean they're the same thing? Prabhupāda: This is cotton. The cause is cotton. Will you like to take cotton instead of the shirt? Guest (3): This is illusion. Prabhupāda: Not illusion. Guest (3): Sure. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by illusion? Don't talk nonsense. (laughter) If I gave you lump of cotton instead of this shirt, will you accept it? Guest (3): I'm sorry. I don't mean to argue. I am sorry. Prabhupāda: You are arguing? Guest (3): I don't mean to argue with you. Prabhupāda: No. If I say... Guest (3): I'm trying to understand something, but you... Prabhupāda: This is cotton. This is cotton. Everyone knows. But if I give you a lump... Guest (3): Do you know that? Do you know that for a fact? How do you know this is not illusion? How do you know that? Do we know anything for sure? Prabhupāda: What proof is that is illusion? Guest (3): No, no. Wait. The burden of the proof lies on you because I don't claim it is cotton. You claim it is cotton. So... Prabhupāda: How do you say it is not cotton. First of all prove it. Guest (3): Initially... Prabhupāda: No! First of all prove it that it is not cotton. Guest (3): No, no. One moment. You claim that it is cotton, therefore the burden of the proof lies on you inasmuch as you have to prove... Prabhupāda: Everyone will say it is cotton. Everyone will say it is cotton. That is proof. Everyone will accept this is cotton, made of cotton. Who will say this is not made of cotton? But if I give you a lump of cotton instead of shirt will you accept it? Guest (3): I apologize. I don't mean to argue with you. I'm just trying to... Prabhupāda: No, why not? Guest (1): You speak of God and matter and as matter being the thing which keeps us from seeing God. It seems to me it's something like pride and delusions, myself, and something like this, and ideas that I have. Prabhupāda: You may have ideas, but I don't agree with your idea. If... I say that anything take it material or spiritual they are different energy of God. Matter is not different from God as it is energy of God, but still matter is not God. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Just try to understand this point, that whatever we see, that is distribution of energy of God. But energy and the energetic is not the same. But they are same as...simultaneously same also because you cannot separate. Just like fire and heat. You cannot separate heat from fire but heat is not fire. Just try to understand this. Heat is not fire although heat and fire cannot be separated. Guest (1): But I don't think I'm thinking of myself as matter but I'm also not thinking of myself as... Prabhupāda: No. You are not matter. You are spirit. Your body is matter. You are also one of the energies. You are spiritual energy and your body is material energy. And because you are spiritual energy, therefore your intimate relationship with the spirit soul or the Supreme Soul... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. The body will change, but you, as spirit soul, you will not change. You are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Body being changed, that is not changed. That is eternal. So we have to pick up our eternal relationship with God. That is missing. Guest (1): I'd like to know how physical things that are done, as chanting or dancing or... Are there no...? If you consider , as having any importance. How do these physical things affect our spiritual understanding? Prabhupāda: Physical... Just like a milk preparation. You take large quantity of milk, you get diarrhea. But the same milk, if it is prepared into yogurt, if you take it, your diarrhea will be cured. So physical things, when treated spiritually, it cures physical disease. Guest (4) (Indian man): You said the approach to spiritual goal, through this way, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma. Okay. Now there is another philosophy which has been preached by Ramakrishna and Vivekananda: "The service of man is the service of God." Prabhupāda: And why not service of God service of man? Guest (4): No... Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. If service of man is service of God, why not service of God, service of man? Guest (4): Okay. It is one and the same thing because within man is within the soul, which is... Prabhupāda: So, one thing, suppose that service of God is service of man, then why should you go door to door serving ... If God is service of man, if you say service of man is service of God, then service of God is service of man. Guest (4): Okay. Fine. Prabhupāda: That's all. Now if by serving God I can serve whole humanity... Guest (4): That's good. Prabhupāda: That's good. But you, how many human beings you can serve? So my process is better. Guest (4): But I don't know what is God, but I know man within which God is present, a part of God is present. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That means we are, I mean to say for argument's sake. If God is everything... Guest (4): We are the parts of God. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now parts of God, just like your finger is part of your body. Suppose if you wash your finger, does it mean you are taking bath whole body? Guest (4): No, no, no, no. No. Prabhupāda: Then how we can serve the whole by serving the part? Guest (4): Well, because it is a problem today, and right now, we country... Prabhupāda: Your argument is that service of man is service of God. That is your point. I say that if service of man is service of God, then service of God is service of man. First of all you yes or no, you say it. Guest (4): It is one and the same but because I don't know God... Prabhupāda: Then we serve God. You serve men. That's all. Guest (4): I don't know God. That's why... Which is present and which is a philosophy. That's why... Prabhupāda: Now, philosophy,... Your argument is service of man is service of God. Guest (4): It is not my argument. It is argument of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Now you are representing Ramakrishna. You are representing Ramakrishna. That's all. I take it. Guest (4): Because I am also in doubt about... I want to know the truth. Prabhupāda: The truth is... The example I have given you, that service of the body means service of the stomach. Service of the body does not mean service of the finger. Guest (4): Service of the body means the service of part of God because body is an embodiment of the... Prabhupāda: Now, I'll give you the example. Suppose if you want to... Take the whole body. If you want to serve this body you must give food. So where to give the food? To the finger or to the stomach? Therefore God is the stomach. Supply food there and every part of the body will be full. Guest (4): Okay good. Stomach is the part of God. I don't say he's the whole of God. Part of God. Because... (several people are talking) Prabhupāda: All right. Car is waiting. Satsvarūpa: Come to the temple and ask any questions you have. Guest (4): Okay. Next time I go to Harvard I'll just get... Prabhupāda: Thank you. I thank you for your questions. Guest (4): Oh, okay, fine. I'll ask you again. (end) Discussion about New Vrindaban Gurukula -- December 24, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: ...form a committee from education in your... Hayagrīva: They have to be taught reading, and for this they have primers. Prabhupāda: Primary readings. Hayagrīva: And this is all right to use? Prabhupāda: Because we haven't got any books yet. Hayagrīva: What about taking the primers and changing the names of the people to people like Satyabhāmā and give them spiritual names. Would that be nice? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pradyumna: Hari*-nāmāmṛtam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: All right. Arithmetic should be taught? Prabhupāda: Arithmetic? Yes. That is necessary. Hayagrīva: What about any history? World history or American history or American literature or English literature? Prabhupāda: American history. That's all. They are Americans. They should learn American history. Don't bother much. Hayagrīva: Any Indian history? Prabhupāda: Indian history, that... Bhāgavata is all right. *Hayagrīva: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Prabhupāda: That Kurukṣetra battle. That's all. And there are many other stories in the *Bhāgavatam*. They are all historical. Hayagrīva: What about literatures? When they get older, of course. This would be for when they are older. *Prabhupāda: Literature, we have got so many. Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. Hayagrīva: Any English literature, American literature, English literature? Prabhupāda: Yes. Any... Some of the English literature, recognized. Hayagrīva: Any of the sciences at all? Prabhupāda: I don't think we require any science. What do you think? Hayagrīva: Biology? Kīrtanānanda: No. Hayagrīva: Geology, zoology, astronomy. *Prabhupāda: Biology, you can teach them the evolution of the species from Padma*-Purāṇa, 8,400,000's, one after another. Yes. Hayagrīva: What about astronomy? Anything like that? No. Okay. Any animal husbandry they can learn out there. Animal husbandry they will learn... Prabhupāda: That they will learn practically, cow keeping. Hayagrīva: At what age should they be taught to cook prasādam? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: At what age should they be taught to cook? Prabhupāda: After twelve years. Hayagrīva: After twelve. And you think they can be taught typing, for instance? A skill like typing and how to use typewriter? Prabhupāda: Does it require all? Well, just this knowledge is required. Kīrtanānanda: Whatever is practical. Hayagrīva: And the only other... Oh, how old should they be before Deity worship, they do Deity worship? Prabhupāda: Just after ten years. Hayagrīva: After ten years? Then they can do Deity worship? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hayagrīva: That's Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity worship. *Prabhupāda: Any Deity. Or worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Hayagrīva: Well, the boys are keeping Deities now, aren't they? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Hayagrīva: He said after ten. Prabhupāda: No, they are keeping as plaything now, not they are regularly worshiping. Kīrtanānanda: He means in the temple they can officiate, do ārati and things... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: Oh, I see. So from just very small they can keep Deities. Kīrtanānanda: Yes. As small as they want to. Hayagrīva: And you suggested... I have it written down somewhere. You suggested a certain number of hours for their school, about five hours or four hours a day. Prabhupāda: Three hours in the morning, two hours in the evening. That's all. Not at a stretch. Morning, evening. And in the noon they should take their prasādam, take little rest. Hayagrīva: Because our literatures are a little difficult to read... Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to make some suitable literature. *Hayagrīva: Something... When they can do that, then they can read Bhagavad*-gītā. They try a little, but it's very difficult to begin. Prabhupāda: No. Hayagrīva: They cannot begin. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Discussion with BTG Staff -- December 24, 1969, Boston *Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is composed of four different stages. The first stage is to understand the relationship with Godhead, or Kṛṣṇa. Because the conditioned souls at the present moment, they have forgotten self. They have forgotten their relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Actually the relationship is there, eternal, but under the influence of māyā he is thinking that "I am something of this material world," identifying himself with this body. So we have to awake them from that illusory existence, what he is not. The whole mistake of the modern status of life... I don't say modern civilization. This is coming up since the creation of this material world. Sometimes it is in greater degree and sometimes in lesser degree. In Satya-yuga the same condition, but in lesser degree. But in Kali-yuga the condition is in greater degree. So the first business is to awake the conditioned souls from their illusory position, that he is thinking, "I am this body and anything in relationship with this body is very important." Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. We speak of illusion, māyā. This is illusion, that "I am this body and anything in relation of this body..." I have got special relationship with certain woman, so I think, "She is my wife. I cannot do without her." Or another woman from whom I have taken birth, "She is my mother." Similarly father, similarly sons. In this way, country, society, at the most, humanity. That's all. But all these things are illusion because they are in bodily relationship. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Those who are passing on on this illusory condition of life, they are compared with the cows and the asses. So our first business is to wake up the general mass of people from this illusory condition of life. So Back to Godhead is specially meant for that purpose. We are pushing our Back to Godhead to the general mass of people to the first condition, first status of enlightenment. And then those who are becoming enlightened, coming forward, "Swamiji, or the society, please make me a member. Please initiate me," he is coming forward, understanding his position. So that is second stage, to train him how to awaken his, that dormant love of God. That is another stage, training. Sambandha abhidheya. Then, when he is actually in love of Godhead, then he can understand the higher status of loving exchange between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and the Vṛndāvana. This is third, third stage, yes. And the fourth stage is paramahaṁsa stage, who is always enjoying. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti... When one is completely merged in the ocean of love of Godhead, he will relish in any condition of life Kṛṣṇa, present. Kṛṣṇa present means, Kṛṣṇa present, His name present, His form present, His līlā present, His paraphernalia present. Everything. Kṛṣṇa is not alone. We are not impersonalist. As soon as we say, "Kṛṣṇa," Kṛṣṇa means with His name, fame, opulence, entourage, pastime, etc. So Back to Godhead generally deals in two stages of understanding, the, to awaken the relationship and to train them. Although our aim is... That is our aim, to come to the highest platform of loving exchange, but generally, we are dealing with the mass of people. Therefore our propaganda should be how to, by reasoning, by philosophy, by science, by argument, how to convince him that he is in illusory stage. These politicians, these scientists, these philosophers, they have no advanced knowledge except the human being. That's all. Their ultimate goal is that if they can do something, humanitarian work, welfare work to the... The Vivekananda, or the Aurobindo, or this, what is called, the Russell, or Romain Roland, and so many, they are coming. And the yogis, they are trying to be self-satisfied by meditation. But nobody is concerned with God, or Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is concerned. This is the position of the world. So under the circumstances, our first business is how to awaken people from this illusory condition, that he is thinking, "I am this body," or the most well*-being is taking care of this body or bodily relationships. So we have to take out from that illusory condition. So that should be the policy of our Back to Godhead. And the, so far the editors are concerned, they are supposed to know all these conclusions. Now we have got two editors, Hayagrīva and Satsvarūpa. I believe both of you know the conclusion which I am trying to push on within this movement. So you should work cooperatively in such a way that you don't deviate from the policy, and conjointly, consulting together, so that I may be relieved from petty minor things. But if there is some difficulty, I am at your service. Now what is the difficulty at the present moment? [break] Hayagrīva: So we want to discuss content first? I have a list. Do you have a list, Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I have a different list. Prabhupāda: And so far the article Hayagrīva written, it is very nice. It should be published. Yes. I have seen it. Satsvarūpa: That means that we can make reference to the gopīs. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is done. Gopīs are boycotted. Satsvarūpa: No, gopīs are not boycotted. Prabhupāda: The policy should be that the people may not understand gopīs like ordinary girls or like that. You should be careful to present the gopīs. It does not mean that "We shall not utter even the name of gopīs. We have taken vow to boycott the gopīs." No. They are our worshipable devotees. How we can avoid them? Satsvarūpa: What about writing down "kissing the lips of Kṛṣṇa"? *Prabhupāda: No. That we should avoid. That we should avoid. But that is not abominable. According to time and circumstances... That thing I have described. The fact is fact. Just like when I am describing Kṛṣṇa's līlā*-I writing Kṛṣṇa's life-so I cannot give up that portion of His life, when Kṛṣṇa is actually kissing the gopīs in rasa dance. Satsvarūpa: But that's in the books. Not in the public... Prabhupāda: Yes. So in such circumstances, of course, we can give. But as far as possible, very cautiously and very rarely we shall present. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life we see that in public He never discussed about Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs. That was very confidential discussion amongst His own circle, Rāya Rāmaṇanda, Svarūpa Dāmodara, like that. And He inquired... Even a learned scholar, He discussed about the philosophy, that Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. But when there was a great devotee like Rāmānanda Rāya, He relished gopīs', I mean to say, intimate behavior with Kṛṣṇa. So we should remember this, that public may misunderstand this. Therefore we have to present these things very cautiously, not very openly. They may misunderstand. But so far this article is concerned, that is nicely written. That is quite in order. So this should be published. Hayagrīva: There is nothing specificially objectionable? Prabhupāda: No, no. There is nothing. Hayagrīva: Our process thus far has been to halve up the material about 50-50. He takes half, and I'll take a half, and that seems to be working fairly nicely. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But first thing is that when you are in the post of editors, you are supposed to know. But whenever there is some difficulty, either you get it solved by consulting amongst yourselves, or if it is not possible, then refer to me. That's all. *Satsvarūpa: Oh. Then I have one question to ask you. What about quoting even Vaiṣṇava literature that you haven't translated, like the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or cantos that you haven't translated? That doesn't seem right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: Other translations than your own. What if we want to quote them in some article? Prabhupāda: Other translations means? *Satsvarūpa: Well, sometimes I see Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Śilavatī even wrote a book about Deity worship, and there's a long quote from Caitanya-caritāmṛta. I don't know if that's bona fide. I know that the literature is bona fide, but I don't know of any translation that's bona... *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? He has written a book? I have not seen it. *Satsvarūpa: No. I just mean that devotees, sometimes they write an article and they say, "As it says in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta," and they quote a book that they read by some scholar, very good Vaiṣṇava literature, but translated by somebody that may not be good. *Prabhupāda: No. Somebody... So far Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, that Navina-candra Rāya... You, mean to say that... Brahmānanda: That six volume set? That is all right? Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is translation. That is all right. Brahmānanda: That is the one which is in use, I believe. It's not anything, you know... *Prabhupāda: That is simply translation. But Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is now presented in our TLC. Actually that is our conclusion. And Navina Rāya's translation, there are sometimes little defects, but not very dangerous, not very dangerous. Hayagrīva: Should your... In the content, should we put in... How many articles can we put in by you? These are the most important contributions we have, and, say, would it be too much material to put in, say, an essay by you and maybe a lecture or... Prabhupāda: Or whatever it may be. That any article may not be more than two, three pages, printed. That will be nice. And if the number of articles are more, how many pages we are going to print? Hayagrīva: We're going to print more pages, aren't we? Brahmānanda: Well, there's some discuss... If we print it on our own press we can print it, we could add eight more pages, which would make it forty pages. But we may continue with Dai Nippon in Japan. So I don't know if we'll increase the pages. Prabhupāda: So by increasing the pages, what do we immediately get profit? Is there any special advantage we get? Satsvarūpa: More reading material. More reading material. The customer gets more for his money. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We should be businessmen. They should get less for their money. (laughter) We are to please Kṛṣṇa, not our customers. So if we are not increasing the price, then why should we increase the pages? Either we print in our own press or Japan, there is extra labor, extra energy. But we are not getting extra money. So there is no need. Satsvarūpa: But, Prabhupāda, the point was, can there be more than one article by yourself? Or only one... Prabhupāda: No. No. One. One. Everyone one, not more. One man's article, not more than two, either of mine or anyone. But so far our news is concerned... Hayagrīva: Not more than two or not more than one? Prabhupāda: No. Not more than one. Not more than one. Hayagrīva: You said two or three pages. Maybe four pages would be all...? Prabhupāda: Four pages, that's all. But not more than four pages. Hayagrīva: There was an excerpt from, I think, *Kṛṣṇa Book*... Prabhupāda: No. Whatever is done is done. Now you follow this policy, that one... Hayagrīva: What about excerpts from your books? Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, excerpt from my book or my article, the same thing. The same thing. So there is no difference. That is also my writing. And whatever you are writing, that is also my writing. So everything is all right. (laughter) Hayagrīva: It's all your vibration. Prabhupāda: Yes. But they should be divided into different names. (laughter) Just like... *Hayagrīva: I have though of doing Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī's Brahma*-saṁhitā. Do you think we could serialize it maybe in three or four Back to Godheads? Or could we print it ourselves in a little pamphlet? Or which do you think would be better? Prabhupāda: No, if you publish in Back to Godhead, then by portion, similarly, three, four pages. That's all, continually, Bhaktisiddhānta's... So when there will be articles sorted, first Guru Mahārāja's, Bhaktisiddhānta's, then mine. Like that. Yes. Hayagrīva: Yes. Do you think it would be a good... *Prabhupāda: If you write something, quotation, from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that should be first. Just like guru*-paramparā, when we offer our respect, first our own spiritual master, then his spiritual master, then his spiritual master. In this way. But when putting article, that should be the opposite. First Bhaktivinoda, then Bhaktisiddhānta, then my, then my disciples, like that. Kīrtanānanda: Why don't you write some purports to that? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Kīrtanānanda: To Bhaktisiddhānta's Brahma*-saṁhitā. It would be nice if you would write some purports to it. Prabhupāda: Purports? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Some of us have difficulty understanding Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if I get time... My time is very limited. So even there is difficulty, let them read over and over and again. Then they will understand. Why should we change it? Let it be presented as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī has given, and... Then don't give more than one or two pages at a time. Their brain will be puzzled. (laughter) Yes. When Guru Mahārāja was speaking, at least my brain was puzzled. (laughter) Even he would speak in Bengali, it was very difficult to understand. He was speaking from a very, very high platform. But I wanted to hear him. That's all. Even I did not understand it. That he appreciated, (laughs) that "This boy does not go away. He hears." Actually that was my position. In the beginning I could not understand what he was speaking, but I wanted to hear him. That's all. I was very much anxious to hear him. That he marked. And he was kindly pleased on me, that "He wants to hear. He does not go away." That was my policy, that "let me hear. Even I do not understand, let me hear." That's all. Yes. Actually I did not understand in the beginning what he was speaking. So Bhaktisiddhānta's writing is not very easy to understand. Yes. But we should try, read and read again, and simply that vibration will help us. That's all. It is transcendental vibration, not that everyone will understand. But if you simply give aural reception to the vibration, that will make him advanced, not exactly that anyone has to understand it. Yes. Just like a man is sleeping and somebody is calling him. In his sleeping condition he does not understand. By calling, calling, calling, he gets up because that vibration is there. Not that in his sleeping condition he is understanding what is this sound is coming. So similarly, we should give reception to the transcendental vibrations made by Kṛṣṇa and His bona fide representatives. That will make us awakened. Not that we understand everything. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, in editing, there are two different policies about using capitals. One is to use as few capitals as possible or to use many capitals, in grammar capitalized, or to use few. So sometimes your *Nectar of Devotion* has got very few capitals. When Balarāma is referred to as "he," there is no capital. But the other policy is to always put... Kṛṣṇa's Hands, capital H, Kṛṣṇa's Feet, capital F, Kṛṣṇa Who, capital W. Which is... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't follow that policy. That will not be very... Then... Satsvarūpa: The less capitals, the better? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think. What do you think? Hayagrīva: Well, I think, when referring to Kṛṣṇa, we should always have a capital "H." Prabhupāda: Especially. Yes. Especially for Kṛṣṇa, you can. Hayagrīva: And if we want to, for Rādhā, capital "S." Prabhupāda: But Balarāma is not different from Kṛṣṇa. Satsvarūpa: So He is capital "H." Hayagrīva: So He is capital "H." But then here we go. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. You limit to these three. That will do. Hayagrīva: Limit to those three. Prabhupāda: Or Viṣṇu. Yes. Viṣṇu. Hayagrīva: What about avatāras, in reference to Christ or Buddha? Prabhupāda: Buddha is capital used. Jesus Christ is capital used. Satsvarūpa: Yes. But he... Like "He." He means Buddha, "Who." Hayagrīva: No, "He." Prabhupāda: No. That you can use... Satsvarūpa: Small. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Then words like Kṛṣṇa's "pastimes," "entourage," His "will." Prabhupāda: No, small. Satsvarūpa: Small. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: The possessions of Kṛṣṇa, small. Prabhupāda: Small. Satsvarūpa: His hands and feet, small. Brahmānanda: Lotus feet? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Lotus flower? Prabhupāda: Yes. All small. Simply name. Stick to name. Hayagrīva: The pronoun, Kṛṣṇa, "who." The pronoun "who," that's not... Prabhupāda: No, no. Use small. Hayagrīva: Thank you. There's so many... That causes a headache for everyone. *Prabhupāda: No. It is better to make everything sound but slow. We want to create this position of Back to Godhead as very authorized representation of the science of God. In future people may refer to it, so we should very cautiously and very nicely do it. It is very important thing, Back to Godhead. If our movement is going to be recognized as scientific, God consciousness movement, then this Back to Godhead will be referred as authorized scripture. So therefore we have to prepare in such a way, nothing non*-conclusive can be introduced in this. That should be our policy. And actually it is the position of Back to Godhead. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, about glossaries, the glossary? I have prepared a glossary... Brahmānanda: It's for the books. Satsvarūpa: Oh. Well, this is... Prabhupāda: Glossary? Satsvarūpa: For the *Īśopaniṣad*. And Hayagrīva Prabhu thought that there was too much preaching in the definition. Like, say, in the definition of bhakti, I shouldn't say, "Bhakti is the highest form of yoga." Well, I don't know if... I'm not speaking your words, but to make it, not to preach more, but I thought that was right. Prabhupāda: Glossary should be short as possible. Satsvarūpa: Short as possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the same time carrying the meaning. Satsvarūpa: The conclusion of Vaiṣṇava philosophy. That's the absolute meaning. Prabhupāda: Yes. It should not be describing the definition. That is not glossary. Glossary should be explained in gist, but the meaning should be carried. *Hayagrīva: Well, can we use, for instance, the glossary to your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam printed in India, can we use that as a model for...? Is that...? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Hayagrīva: You have a glossary at the end of the first volume. Is that the type of glossary...? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given glossary. You can follow that principle. Yes. And at the end of each book, glossary, index, will carry weight. Hayagrīva: Well, that was fairly terse if I remember, though. That was fairly terse. I mean very short, brief. Definitions were very... Prabhupāda: One thing may appear to be very simple and to other, terse, but you do your own duty. Another thing: where is the Bhagavad-gītā with my full translation and synonyms? Where is that manuscript? Hayagrīva: I have... There are several existing manuscripts. I have... The manuscript I went over is in Columbus. Prabhupāda: Whole? Hayagrīva: The total manuscript is there. Prabhupāda: So we have to prepare for next publication, revised and enlarged, giving in the same process: original verse, transliteration, synonyms, and translation, and purport. Hayagrīva: English synonyms. Pradyumna was preparing... Pradyumna: I've already started that, the first chapter. *Prabhupāda: Our first printing will be this, what is name? Nectar of Devotion. And then, if possible, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, revised and enlarged. Satsvarūpa: *Īśopaniṣad* is even before *Nectar of Devotion*. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Īśopaniṣad*. That is already... And then *Bhāgavatam*. Then *Bhāgavatam*. And so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, Kṛṣṇa we shall print after this *Nectar of Devotion* in our press if it is printed. But if I get some money, contribution, from George Harrison, then I may get it printed immediately from Japan. Yes. Devotee: Haribol. Brahmānanda: Jayadvaita Prabhu says that... *Jayadvaita: There's another manuscript of Bhagavad*-gītā also in New York, the original. Prabhupāda: Oh. You have got? Jayadvaita: Yes. It's in New York except for the first two chapters. Everything else is there. Prabhupāda: So first two chapters might be with Janārdana. But you have got the whole thing, Hayagrīva. Hayagrīva: Yes. That has been... I have gone over that, the one I have. The one that is in New York, no one has gone over that. Jayadvaita: Some of it has been edited by Rāyarāma, but you can see around it and go to the original behind it. Prabhupāda: So whatever is lacking, you ask me. I will supply you. Hayagrīva: Well, I have nothing lacking. But I would like to see that version. Jayadvaita: That's with a dictaphone. So it's... *Hayagrīva: I would like to see that in going over mine. I'll have to go over it chapter by chapter. But I will compare the version I have with that version, and... I know the translations themselves, they were somewhat changed in Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is as it came out in Macmillan. Did you like those translations? Prabhupāda: Whichever is better, you think. That's all. You can follow this Macmillan. Hayagrīva: That was the second... They're good. I think they're very good. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can follow that translation. Simply synonyms he can add, transliterations. Hayagrīva: And we have all the purports. We can include everything. Nothing will be deleted. Everything will be in there. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, I have a question and it applies only to me, but it's important. A year ago you wrote me in a letter when I was..., said the editing was going slow, to pay more attention to managing the temple. So... Prabhupāda: Yes. Managing, you, why don't you make this Giriraja as the temple manager? Satsvarūpa: But still... I've already done that. I've made him, but practically I'm still managing anyway. And I made Murāri manager, but still I'm... I don't spend much time in editing. People are always coming, and I'm running all over the place. I don't edit at all. It makes me sad. I don't... Prabhupāda: No, no. They must give relief to you. You can give them instruction, but the actual execution should be done... Pradyumna is there. He can also do. But anyone who is expert in management, he should be... Temple management should not be done directly by you. You can give him policy that "You do like this." That's all. Because you have got so many other things to do. Yes. So you create. If there is no expert manager, you create some manager. That is most important thing, to create. To become... (laughs) In our college there was one Mr. Kidd, professor of economics. He was always chastising us. We were student; he was our professor. "Oh, you cannot have independence. You cannot manage it. You cannot manage. You can work just like ass, but if some asses are given under you, you cannot work." He was talking like that. "So don't cry for independence. You are not yet nation." He was talking like that. So actually his experience was nice, that since the Britishers have gone away, the management of Indian government is not nice. They cannot manage. So he was experienced. He told. I sometimes remember that Professor Kidd told me like that. (laughs) So we have to create nice administrator. That is another function, you see? Every department, we shall create assistant, assistant. So that in case he is ill or he is sick, he cannot work, somebody must work for him. Brahmānanda: That is how we can expand also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some assistant always must be there, training of assistant. So far your editorial is concerned, you can train. Now Puruṣottama, he can also assist you. Similarly, Gaurasundara can assist you. Satsvarūpa: Jayadvaita is already... Prabhupāda: Ah, Jayadvaita. So in this way you should create assistant editors also. Hayagrīva: Then the process thus far we have, someone types off the dictaphone. Now, thus far you've been doing this? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Hayagrīva: Thus far Satsvarūpa... Prabhupāda: That dictaphone can be done in Detroit. That boy Bhagavān dāsa is here. He has offered service. Satsvarūpa: There's one thing... It seems to be easy, but it's very difficult to hear your voice. Prabhupāda: That will require practice. He may commit some mistake in the beginning, but when he is practiced, he will do the right thing. So that you cannot avoid. You cannot change my voice. Satsvarūpa: No. But I can hear it. I can understand it. Kīrtanānanda: Yes, but you can't go on forever, doing typing. Brahmānanda: We've learned, so someone else can. Satsvarūpa: So just now you've sent a Kṛṣṇa tape. Should I, rather than do that, give it to Bhagavān? Prabhupāda: No. First of all test him, who will do that. Test him here, whether he can understand. (break?) Hayagrīva: A tape recording of dictaphone. Jayadvaita: Yes. And you check the copies. Hayagrīva: And you can check the copies after. Why don't you do that? Make a tape recording, and then, when the manuscript comes back, you can check it off the tape recorder. I've done that before. Brahmānanda: I also have a dictaphone in New York, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is mine. Brahmānanda: No. I have another one also. I also can have tapes typed. Prabhupāda: So that can be distributed, tapes. Yes. In different centers they will have dictaphone and they'll do it. Satsvarūpa: And then send me the copy to edit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Hayagrīva: I have a dictaphone also, so they can also be sent to Śyāma dāsī. Satsvarūpa: Yeah. Hayagrīva: But before you send them, make a tape, make a recording of them so you can check them over if you want to check them over. 'Cause I don't have time to do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So taping, recording, that does not take much time. Hayagrīva: No. Somebody can do that for you. Prabhupāda: You can keep it and record. Yes. So manage in that way. We have to train so many things. So tactfully you have to do that. Hayagrīva: Then he does the first editing. After it's typed up off the dictaphone, Satsvarūpa does the first editing. Then I go over what he has gone over and check the manuscript... Prabhupāda: Yes. What you do, he goes. And what he does, you go. Then final. In this way. But the last editing should be checked twice. The dictaphone, then checked by him and then by you. Or checked by you and then by him. That's all. Hayagrīva: Yes. And Pradyumna does the Sanskrit after. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. That is printing department. Hayagrīva: And then Jayadvaita does the composing. Prabhupāda: Jayadvaita and others. Satsvarūpa: Pālikā and Arundhati. Prabhupāda: Now, I heard that you are composing fifty pages daily, altogether? Jayadvaita: No, not fifty pages. The manuscript pages, yesterday we composed about forty manuscript pages. Prabhupāda: Correct, all? Complete? Jayadvaita: Yes. The original... It's done twice. So those first pages, the first time, they'd already been done. Prabhupāda: No, no. These forty pages, they are complete? Jayadvaita: Yes. They are complete. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is encouraging. So even if you complete thirty pages daily, that will be very nice. Pradyumna: They'll get faster because Śyāma dāsī and Arundhati were just typing fourteen hours a day in Columbus and they were getting at least twenty manuscript pages done, and now it's... *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are the in*-charge of this composition. You or Jaya-govinda? Who is in charge of the composition? Jayadvaita: Mostly I am doing it. Prabhupāda: Accha. Then you get easily not less than thirty pages daily, complete. That will satisfy. Is that all right? Jayadvaita: That's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then our books are, biggest book, four hundred pages. So thirty pages daily means, what is that? Within fifteen days you can complete. Jayadvaita: Thirty manuscript pages, thirty book pages? Prabhupāda: Thirty book pages. No. Or what is the manuscript pages? I do not understand. Jayadvaita: When it's typed out, we've been doing about... Prabhupāda: I want complete for being photographed. Jayadvaita: Yes. Brahmānanda: When you say a page, do you mean a page... Jayadvaita: He means the typed copies. I've been doing forty of those... Brahmānanda: How many manuscript pages? Jayadvaita: That's what I mean. Forty of those pages. Forty pages like that. So *Nectar of Devotion* is about 580... Pradyumna: Forty of these. Prabhupāda: Oh. All right. These are forty pages. Such, say, in fifteen days how many pages? Satsvarūpa: 450. Prabhupāda: So you take up twenty days, one month for one book? Hayagrīva: I cannot edit much faster than forty pages a day. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't do it, I mean to say, so hastily. But do it slowly and surely. That will be nice. Yes. Brahmānanda: One book, one month. Prabhupāda: No, that you are printing, that "one book, one month" for the last six months. (laughs) That is in theory only. Actually it has not happened. Now do everything solidly so that at least in two months we finish one book. That's all. Is that all right? Jayadvaita: Yes. Prabhupāda: You say everything all right. (laughter) Anyway... Brahmānanda: Today, Pradyumna prabhu, you edited how many pages? Pradyumna: I didn't edit so many today. I edited fifty yesterday. Prabhupāda: So I think I want... I shall be very glad to see the *Nectar of Devotion* is finished before I leave this place and you begin some other book. Jayadvaita: The second part... We've finished the first part. We're now into the second part. Prabhupāda: Second part, which second part? Jayadvaita: Where the qualities of Kṛṣṇa are described. We've started that part of the book now. Pradyumna: How many pages, manuscript pages, composed? 250... Jayadvaita: 260 manuscript pages. Pradyumna: 260, out of 574, done. Jayadvaita: Almost half the book. Pradyumna: But it's going pretty fast. *Hayagrīva: You want me to do Nectar of Devotion and then Kṛṣṇa and then Bhagavad*-gītā, in that order? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So everything is all right, bṛhat*-mṛdaṅga department? Major saṅkīrtana party. They are going, saṅkīrtana parties in different cities. That is junior. But your, this party, it is senior. You are sitting one place; you have to work thousand times more than them. Yes. You have to edit in such a way. Where is that water? Brahmānanda: It's being offered, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right, all right. That's all... Satsvarūpa: I have a question from the art department. Prabhupāda: Art, yes. Satsvarūpa: Jadurānī asks are they going too slow? She wants to know are they going too slow. They have thirty pictures ready. Prabhupāda: One thing, that Jadurānī should have some assistants. She alone cannot do that. Satsvarūpa: Well, Prabhupāda, you used that word once before, assistant. So then when Jāhnavā saw that letter she said, "That means I should paint." So all that assistant meant was that they all painted. And Śāradīyā began to paint. I don't know what you mean by assistant. Prabhupāda: Assistant means that they should work under her direction. That is assistant. Satsvarūpa: And produce pictures side by side with her. Prabhupāda: Yes. I give some idea, sketch, and then under that sketch, instruction of Jadurānī, and... Satsvarūpa: So according to Jadurānī, only she, Muralīdhara, Devahūti, and Baradraj were good enough, that the other weren't good painters, Jāhnavā and Śāradīyā. But I don't know that. Prabhupāda: Then they may practice. They may be given to practice, not the actual work. So... But they are scattered in different places. Brahmānanda: Baradraj is coming to Boston. Prabhupāda: Baradraj is good. Yes. He can... If he likes, he can do much work. Satsvarūpa: And Muralīdhara is good and also produces. Devahūti is good, but doesn't produce. Prabhupāda: So Devahūti has gone. I would have talked with her. Brahmānanda: Yes. I don't have her address. Prabhupāda: Oh, she does not live in the temple. Brahmānanda: No. And she doesn't come often to the temple. I do not know her address, so I don't know how to... I will call up her daughter in Dematine(?). See if I can get her address and write her. *Kīrtanānanda: What about Mādhava*-lati? Prabhupāda: Yes. She is good painter. Kīrtanānanda: She's exhibiting a much nicer atti... She had a sari on today, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: She had a sari on today. Prabhupāda: Sari? Kīrtanānanda: Yes. She was wearing a sari at the temple. She looks very nice. Prabhupāda: No, she is nice. She is talented. Satsvarūpa: She could be an assistant painter. Prabhupāda: And why not somebody marry her? If somebody want to marry, then she will be all right. Brahmānanda: Nayanābhirāma wanted to marry her. Prabhupāda: Then why not ask and get her married? Yes. Then she will be fixed up. I think she requires to be married. Then she will be satisfied. Satsvarūpa: One more question from art was... Prabhupāda: She is here. I recommend that just ask her to get married. If she agrees, that, what is that boy? Brahmānanda: Nayanābhirāma. Prabhupāda: Let them marry and live here. Satsvarūpa: The other question was, is the subject matter, as they're being done, is there any criticism or should it be changed? The paintings that have been finished thus far, should they be changed in some way? *Prabhupāda: Then... These paintings are first*-class, these paintings. *Brahmānanda: Is that one first*-class there, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Satsvarūpa: What's the trouble? Prabhupāda: The trouble is that Kṛṣṇa's body is... Why it is made so big? Why the others, inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, smaller? Satsvarūpa: He's supposed to be up in the front. He's supposed to be in the front, and they're all behind Him. But it mustn't be done well enough. Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Do you think that is represented? Kṛṣṇa did not show His gigantic body. As He was, He lifted. Yes. Hayagrīva: He seems gigantic. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa could show His gigantic. Actually He expanded His gigantic body. Otherwise how He could lift? Kīrtanānanda: These are very nice. Prabhupāda: These things are... Yes. Brahmānanda: Do you like this one, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: This is also not bad, but... Kīrtanānanda: The calf looks like a dog. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Satsvarūpa: So they should be done over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all right. You see? So you can take some photograph like this picture. This is also... Kṛṣṇa is patting a cow. Satsvarūpa: That's a good one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: We should just reproduce that as it is? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? *Hayagrīva: Gurudāsa has some very excellent pictures from the archives taken from books that were printed several hundreds of years ago, Bhagavad*-gītā and some woodcuts of Nṛsiṁha, which would be considered quite artistic, but maybe we can send them to you to see if they meet your approval and maybe reproduce them. Prabhupāda: No, whatever card, form, we get, unless we have got arrangement for worship... Of course, we can keep, but our, any form, wooden or stone, that should be worshiped. Hayagrīva: These are photographs, these are pictures. Prabhupāda: Oh, pictures. Then it is all right. All right. It is all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes. That's all. Prabhupāda: That's all. So now distribute prasādam. First of all, chant once more Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation -- November 4, 1970, Bombay Prabhupāda: One of our relatives, long, long ago, he happened to be, as my grandmother..., my cousin's, oh, grandfather. He went to England in those old days and he became a parsiyas(?) doctor, very... When he came home the brāhmaṇas prescribed that "You went to England, so you have to make this prāyaścitta and this and so many prescriptions, and unless you follow the prāyaścitta you cannot live at home. Then your family will be extricated." So when these things were presented to him he said, "Then I am going out of home." His mother and father, everyone requested that... (Hindi) [break] *Haṁsadūta: "Patel Pola(?) of Chicago had observed that he was a construction worker doing a śūdra's work. It would not become necessary to allot the three lower castes to the foreign converts according to their professions. This will not be an easy task. Talking of profession reminds me of a still graver problem*-that of the occupation or profession of the white sādhus. If I am not mistaken, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would turn out legions of new white sādhus in the West whose only aim in life would be to propitiate their Lord Kṛṣṇa. They would be steeped in the bhakti-rasa and would not soil their hands with doing any work for such a mundane thing as earning a living." Prabhupāda: They are not doing anything. Actually they are not doing anything. They are preaching only. Guest (1) (Indian man): No, but he says that legions of sādhus, such white men, persons from West, become sādhus, then who will do this job of earning a living? *Prabhupāda: Why he is crying? If he is hungry, let him come here. We shall provide him. Why he is crying for that? What business he has got to cry, "What will they do?" What they will, that they know. Why he is crying? What is his business for crying for this future? If he is hungry, let him come and we shall provide him. This is not... That is a childish conception. "If everybody becomes sādhu, then what will be the nature of the society?" That is, never becomes. That never becomes. To become sādhu and to become a Vaiṣṇava is not so easy thing. These idle questions, why they publish? I do not know. This is idle question. It never becomes. Lord Kṛṣṇa personally says that "You simply surrender unto Me." How many have surrendered till now? Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that "You give up everything and surrender unto Me." So how many have done that? So this is a rascal question, "If everyone surrenders, then what will happen to the world?" But that will never happen. It is very difficult to surrender. That he does not know. (Hindi) It is not expected that everyone become sādhu. To become sādhu is not so easy thing, especially this nature of sādhu, pure. How many are there? We have given the prescription that "Give up this, give up this." How many have given up this? So that is not possible, but still, these nonsense questions are raised. Haṁsadūta: Should I go on? Prabhupāda: Hm. Haṁsadūta: "As in India, so in the West..." Prabhupāda: This class of question is answered..., no, criticized... (Hindi) There was a big market, because in the village there is haṭṭa every weekly. So in the village one old woman, she saw, "Oh, how I shall provide all these men at night? Where they will sleep? So many guests has come. What can I do?" She began to cry. So her son said, "Mother, you don't bother. They will go away." "No, no. How can I provide?" So in the evening he brought the mother: "Now see." So when she saw that, nobody is there. Theoretically, she began to cry, "Where shall I provide all, so many guests?" And this class of question is like that. Simply on theoretical they are asking. Haṁsadūta: It goes on. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: "As in India, so in the West the sādhus will have to live on alms given by others and will have to forego many of..." *Prabhupāda: He does not know what is sādhu. He is not sādhu. He is gṛhastha. I have got many professors, engineers. So they are Kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas. Are they not sādhus? The rascal does not know; that sādhu means beggar, he knows. Arjuna became a sādhu. He was a beggar? So he does not know what is sādhu. Sadhu's description is given, bhajate mām ananya... Guest (1): This particular letter is written by a woman. It is unnecessarily pushing the... Prabhupāda: So it should be replied properly, that "You do not know what is sādhu. You do not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do you bother yourself?" Just like one, this Jain paper has published that "Swami Bhaktivedantaji says that 'Kṛṣṇa is everything; Hinduism is nothing.' " So anyone who says Kṛṣṇa is everything, he is not Hindu. Just see. Such foolishness. Go on. Haṁsadūta: So... "The sādhus will have to live on alms given by others and will have to forego many of their luxurious personal needs. The coming years are therefore going to create for Uncle Sam a national problem of magnitude..." Prabhupāda: You, already problem. Haṁsadūta: "...the like of which he has not seen before." Prabhupāda: What...? What they are doing for the hippies? In U.S.A. they have thousands of hippies. They are doing nothing. That problem is already there. Go on. Haṁsadūta: "It will create a national problem of a magnitude the like of which he has not seen before. In fact, Western society is in for a great jolt. A. Karim Saikh.(?)" Then two more letters. Prabhupāda: But the old woman's crying. *Haṁsadūta: Do you want to hear the next letter? This is the second letter. "I do not see why you devoted two full pages to the article on 'Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa,' November 8th. Wearing a plain white sari, applying sandal paste on the forehead and wearing nose*-rings do not transform one. Churning milk gopī fashion is no way to attain spiritual bliss. The statements made by the devotees of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement reflect an attitude of escapism." Prabhupāda: Hm. Anyway, we are getting publicity. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) They're angry. "How can the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa purify the mind? It only closes it to everything else. Purity of the mind lies in knowing all evil and yet abstaining from it. The escapist attitude of the devotees of the movement is reflected in the reply of Adhikārī when he bypasses the question of India's poverty by giving irrelevant answers. The poverty of our country is known to all of us. I am not an atheist, but I find it difficult to digest the sentimentalism in the article." Prabhupāda: What is that sentimentalism? Haṁsadūta: I didn't read the article. That was in the... Which paper? I think this was in a Bombay paper. What paper is this? Guest (1): This is Times of India. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Guest (1): It is published from Bombay and Delhi both. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think in Bombay there was a large article. Prabhupāda: What about? Favorable or unfavorable? Haṁsadūta: It was an interview with the devotees, if I remember, with Gurudāsa. Guest (1): The article, original article, was quite favorable. It was all praiseworthy and all that. That is why these two letters say that author of that article is unnecessarily being sentimental and this and that. Rebatinandan: That was the Sunday edition of Times of India. Haṁsadūta: November 8th. Revatīnandan: The magazine section. Two page particle with nice pictures. You liked it very much. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, yes, yes. I remember. She is envious, that "Why two page advertisement, publicity has been..." That's all. Prabhupāda: Now, now, we have to serve the political, politicians. Eh? Because they cannot do, so they are asking us. Haṁsadūta: To do. Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense. So we have to help these rascal politicians. You write that, that "Do you mean to say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness means business is to serve the rascal politicians? We are going every country and when we find time we shall go to Pakistan." Guest (1): Not for vacating the aggression, but for... Prabhupāda: "Not for helping the politicians who are very much eager to join Pakistan. Our joining is different. Even in India we have got so many enemies like you who are criticizing Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So there are rascals everywhere, either in Pakistan or India. So we are not satisfy the rascals. We are meant for intelligent persons." Write that, like that. Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes? Then? Who is it? Anything more? Haṁsadūta: I think that's it. [break] Prabhupāda: But we have to do in such a way that I may not be in inconvenience. Take something. All right. Bring something; take one piece. That's all. Finished. You were drinking before? Devotee: Yes, I was... Prabhupāda: So you don't feel any inconvenience? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: That's nice. You were smoking also? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. Our students, they have very quickly given up the four principles of sinful activity. And that is actually surprising to all these so*-called sannyāsīs also. They are surprised. They cannot give up tea-drinking, smoking. Still, they are passing on as spiritually advanced. They are still servant of smoking and tea and they have become God. Just see the fun. "Nārāyaṇa." They address one another, "Nārāyaṇa. (laughter) You are Nārāyaṇa. I am Nārāyaṇa. There is no trouble because you are Nārāyaṇa." So begin. [break] Others not, your father. Child: My grandfather. Prabhupāda: So aśakti...? (end) Room Conversation -- November 7, 1970, Bombay Prabhupāda: These are also done within these five years. Guest (1): And that too, in the foreign countries, to establish that, it is... Guest (2): Yes, it's a wonderful thing. I was all the while imagining, imagining... Prabhupāda: So I went in U.S.A. without any sponsor. No, I... That is the... One gentleman sponsored for one month, one month only. Not even one month. I remained there only three weeks, and then I chalked out my plan. He was my friend's son, and my friend wrote him that "You sponsor Swamiji for one month." Guest (1): Some American gentleman? Prabhupāda: No, Indian, one gentleman from Agra. So his son immediately sent me, sponsoring. But still, the government objected that "We cannot allow you to go there because you are sponsored by an individual person." But I wanted to see chief controller of, what is called, foreign exchange, Mr. Rao. So he kindly accepted. "Yes, Swamiji, you can go." He fought. (?) Guest (2): That time it was very difficult. Passport I have got already. Prabhupāda: Passport, visa. Guest (2): Now, the difficulty is about visa only. Passport I have secured. He's cleared it for three years. Now it is easy to get a passport. I do possess. After getting the passport I wrote and corresponded with... *Prabhupāda: So there was no money with me and in an awkward position... My philosophy is completely different. I was to ask them to cease from four kinds of sinful activities, and they are habituated to these things. Illicit sex, and drinking, wine and intoxication and gambling*-these are their daily affairs. So I was thinking, "I have to stop this. Who will hear me?" But Kṛṣṇa... Everything became... Guest (1): May I ask one thing. How you chose this America to be your first...? *Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "You go and preach this cult amongst the English speaking public and specially in the western countries." So first of all I thought of London, where is London, but I had no money. So I got the opportunity for going U.S.A. free on the, on a trade ship by the Scindia Steam Navigation. They gave me their first*-class cabinet, the proprietor's cabinet. I was well carried. But first of all I went free on a steamship. I had no money, what to speak of aeroplane. So... What was your question? Guest (1): My question was that how you selected America to be your... Prabhupāda: Yes. So I got the opportunity to go to America because their ship goes to New York. So I accepted, "All right, we can see, either go to London or New York." New York is better place than London. Guest (1): There are number of Indians in New York. In New York, Indians are... Prabhupāda: No. In London there are many Indians. Guest (1): In London, they say, there are about twelve lakhs of Indians in London. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many Indians. In the street you will find it is just like ordinary Indian city. (Hindi) Guest (3): He's my old friend. *Guest (4): We both are coming from Horir(?), leaving Delhi after... We are interested in this Gītā*-jayantī Mahotsava, and we shall be more interested in you also. You are coming... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Guest (4): So this is (?) Kumar Sharma. He's an, a learned(?) man. He has brought this tape recorder. He has come to tape your interview. Last night we met Mr. Ja.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guest (4): And he has permitted us to take your interview for our paper. So if you don't mind we shall ask some questions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): And we'll finished before you go there. Prabhupāda: That's all right. No, my men will go. Even if I am a little late, it doesn't matter. So you go there and join at night. Then I will come in. Guest (4): (inaudible)... America from the last five, six years back and incorporated this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement there. That means to say that it is Kṛṣṇa alone, it is bhakti of Kṛṣṇa alone through which you can have God realization, and Kṛṣṇa alone... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. People are searching-"Where is God?"*-but they are missing Kṛṣṇa. That is the dilemma of the present society. Guest (4): You have written number of books also ...?...volumes are there. It is not only appealing to your eyes but to your heart and to your soul. By the very look of the book, our heart is..., rather, our soul is elated and we come into that state of mind. Huh? So after reading this, we don't know what stage will come? See how beautiful... Guest (5): Will they be answering in Hindi or English? Prabhupāda: Which one? Guest (5): This gentleman. You'll be answering in Hindi or English? Prabhupāda: As you like. Guest (5): They know Hindi. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (6): (Hindi) Guest (7): No, no. If you want to put questions in English, Swamiji will reply in English. If you want to put in Hindi, I hope... Yesterday I heard him in Hindi, I had the good fortune, and I can say with my understanding that he is equally past master in Hindi ...(laughter) Yesterday we had the good occasion and the good fortune of hearing him in Hindi as well. Disciples will speak English only. Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not speak. Guest (8): They probably don't know Hindi. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (7): And I will also give you one song, you see, so that you may know that ...as a memory for me of my great svami, for whom I was always thinking for the last more than six months. Guest (6): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) I was born a Vaiṣṇava family. My father was a great devotee. Naturally, he led me... Oh, I am speaking in Hindi, English. (Hindi) They are not attracted to the Hindu dharma. Guest (6): Then why they attracted to Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. These people, they are... (Hindi) But you are taking Kṛṣṇa as Hindu. That is your mistake. Kṛṣṇa is... Hindu ne. He is God. He is God. God Hindu ne, Mussulman ne, Christian ne, Parsi ne*-God is God. (Hindi) And I am also not interested to preach Hindu dharma. (Hindi) ...Kṛṣṇa dharma. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the only dharma. (Hindi) ...Kṛṣṇa literature. It is not a Hindu dharma literature. (Hindi) Guest (4): But then why the *Vedas* allow us to eat the meat of goat and other animals? *Prabhupāda: That is to restrict. Just like government opens liquor shop. That does not mean government is encouraging to drink. Those who are drunkard, going create disturbance, for them there is little concession, but they are responsible. If they become drunkard and causes some disturbance in the street, then he will be arrested by the police. He cannot say, "Oh, I have paid for the bottle." (Hindi) The bhakti is all*-inclusive. (Explains Brahman, Paramātmā, Bhagavān in Hindi) Brahmā-jñāna means, just like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun disc. But both of them are light. *Guest (9): The Brahma*-jñāna has got a limited jurisdiction. *Prabhupāda: It is these things that... This is the... just like ordinary...(Hindi) Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa bhūtaṁ... [Bs. 5.40]. (Hindi) Guest (9): Different stages? Are there different stages? *Prabhupāda: Different features. Just like Sūryaloka or Sūryadeva or Sūrya*-raśmi. (Hindi) Guest (9): I see. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Different stages. (Hindi) Guest (9): You have to try to come in second arya. (?) *Prabhupāda: Then second, paramātmā*-jñāna. Then bhagavad-jñāna. Guest (9): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) That is the pure bhakti. (Hindi) my family, my...so many responsibility, (Hindi). Guest (9): It is very difficult to give up. Prabhupāda: It is difficult, but there is way. Guest (9): There is some ceremony for that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi. (Hindi) I identify myself as Hindu, yes. Then they would not have accepted. They would have said, "We have got Christianity. Why should I accept your Hinduism?" (Hindi) Guest (9): This sort of distinction was not clear to us, but now, after hearing you this morning... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (9): ...and your ceremony... Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, if you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism? They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism and Mohammedanism; we are talking on the science of God. Guest (9): The true philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh, they have accepted, therefore: "Yes, here it is right conception." Yes. Guest (9): Go back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Back to Godhead. Guest (9): Go back to Godhead. (conversation among Indians about BTG's) Guest (9): I distributed what I got. Prabhupāda: No, I shall arrange to distribute. I am getting fifty thousand Back to Godheads. Fifty thousand. I shall distribute. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...(Hindi) We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian or Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of them. Kṛṣṇa says, claims, that "Every living entity is My part and parcel. I am the seed*-giving father." So therefore it has become successful. I never said that "You become a Hindu." "You accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy." What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God. Oh, that we have been confident. Guest (9): They are accepting God. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Even if they are puzzled. Although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India. Guest (9): We don't think that He belongs to particular place or... Prabhupāda: That's... They do not understand Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence. Guest (9): But you should be... *Prabhupāda: There is no question of "should be." When Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you protection," why "should be"? You don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says, ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣa [Bg. 18.66]. You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa's capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Guest (9): But in a part of one form... Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (9): To understand Kṛṣṇa... Guest (2): He means that is beyond his capacity, to understand Him. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am everything." Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable? Guest (9): No, believe Him as a you are a servant and serve Him. Or you believe that you are mother to Him. *Prabhupāda: No, that is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is different thing, another stage, more confidential. First of all there is surrender. First of all you enter this house or this room. Then you ask, "How can I serve you?" That is different. First of all there is no surrender, or without surrender, full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā*-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa [Bg. 7.27]. (Hindi) Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19], creation, that all the living entities who have come into this created world, they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they have given the chance, "All right, you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I will give you facilities. You want to become Brahmā? All right, you become Brahmā. And you want to become the worm of stool? I will give you the facility." So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing body. This is material world. Or when he comes back again, back to Godhead, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. Then you'll haven't got to come back. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. So we have to prepare for that position, how to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa and engage ourself in His service. Then the question of either as mother or friend or... That will be considered later on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is condition, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66], that "You surrender unto Me fully, giving up all your other engagements. Then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi. Mokṣa is there. For a Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is nothing, mokṣa, or liberation. He'll do it. He'll look after it. Guest (9): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Ready? All right. (end) Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: For young man, the more he sleeps, he is dead. He's a dead body. A child, if he overeats, if he overeats, then it is not bad for him. So anyone overeats, it is bad, specially for old man. And if child gets diarrhea, it is good for him. When a old man gets diarrhea, it is death for him. Child gets diarrhea means whatever poisons he has acquired he gets out. His health becomes renovated. And old man, if he gets diarrhea, he loses his vitality. Chele hange bastre guru hage mostre.(?) These are the para... What is called? Common sayings? Parables? Oh, it is the time. They are not yet ready? Haṁsadūta: No. If we get that house, Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: You can get. Haṁsadūta: We can get? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You have appealed to the king, and he is willing. Why can you not? What is the difficulty? Now it is your business how to induce, induce him. There is chance, ninety percent chance. Haṁsadūta: In which way will it be most helpful, in giving money personally or inducing others to give money? He will give money? Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise... Haṁsadūta: How much money? Prabhupāda: Ten lakhs. Haṁsadūta: Ten lakhs. They can give the full amount? *Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? This man... It is to be very carefully tackled. This king is going to die very soon. And as soon as the king dies, the queen's position is very precarious, almost finished. So if she becomes our president, she'll continue to keep her honor and prestige. That's a fact. She's a good lady. We have no objection to make her the president of the local center. And she is American. She will be able to tackle these American boys and girls with motherly affection. And we shall keep her always in good respect so that throughout her life she shall be honored all over as she was, as she was honored with her husband. This is a fact. So you have to convince her. And I think if the other ladies who are..., her daughter*-in-law and granddaughters, like that... Because her son is dead. He was the king. This old man being invalid, his son was king. And I think that middle-aged woman was there. You have marked this? She might be her daughter-in-law and the young girls might be grandchildren. One of them, one of the daughters, girl, was very beautiful. So it appears that she comes from the royal family. Rāja-kanyā King's daughters are very beautiful. That is fabulous in India, king's daughter, rāja-kanyā. In India if anybody gets a good dowry and a beautiful wife it is said, arddhe rajatva eka rāja-kanyā(?) Actually we have seen in..., when Devaki was married to Vasudeva, how much dowry. Can anyone imagine now? So many thousands of horses, chariots, elephants, maidservants, all decorated with gold ornaments. One cannot imagine even at the present moment. Therefore they talk of "legends." But actually such dowries were given when a king's daughter was married. Not only royal family, even in ordinary family still, those who are rich, they spend lots of money to be married, either son's marriage or daughter's. When one spends lots of money during the marriage of one's daughter and son he is considered to be really rich man. That is the proof that he is rich man. So we can begin. He cannot rise, this, what is called, Muktananada? That's all right. Where he is? Devotee: Muktananda, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. You come here. Girls may sit here. You can sit comfortably on this. (Devotees come in and sit down.) What is that? Kauśalyā: Her baby. Her child. Her son. *Prabhupāda: Oh. So we were talking of Ajamila, a brāhmaṇa resident of Kānyakubja, presently known as Kanauj. So, kānyakubje dvijaḥ kaścid asit patir..., asit kaścid dāsī*-patir ajāmilaḥ, nāmnā naṣṭa-sadācāro dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. That, what is known as, at the present, prostitute, they were know as dāsya, dāsī. (aside:) Don't make sound, "cut, cut." Silent. Dāsī... The kṣatriya kings also, when they married, with dowry many maidservants would follow the queen. That was the kṣatriya system. So Ajamila was the illegal husband of a prostitute, dāsī, dāsī-pati. Actually one should be husband of dharma-pati, religiously married, not a friend or a husband of illegal marriage. That is not allowed. Dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ nāmnā... Ajāmila nāmnā. His name was Ajāmila. Why the sound is in...? It is not possible to charge? "Cut, cut cut, cut." Naṣṭa-sadācāraḥ. Sadācāra means good behavior. Why good behavior was lost? Dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. Because he was associating with a prostitute, illegal sex. Therefore, anyone who wants to make progress in spiritual life, he must be sadācāra. His behavior must be very regulated. Asadācārī, unclean, nonregulated, cannot make any progress. If somebody says that "Whatever you like, you can do. There is no difference. You can imagine your own way..." This is going on nowadays. "Whatever you like, you can do. You can imagine your own way of self-realization." But that is not recommended in the Vedic literatures. One must be sadācāra. This is the beginning of sadācāra, to rise early in the morning, to cleanse, then chant, or chant the Vedic mantras or, simplified as in the present age, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, mahā-mantra. This is the beginning of sadācāra. So sadācāra means to become freed from sinful reaction. Unless one follows the regulative principles he cannot be freed. And unless one is fully freed from sinful reaction he cannot understand what is God. Those who are not in sadācāra, regulative principles, for them... Just like animals, they are not expected to follow any... Of course, by nature they follow regulative principles. Still, but human being, having advanced consciousness, so instead of using it properly, they misuse the advanced consciousness and thus they become lower than animals. The animals, for want of advanced consciousness, cannot follow any regulative principles. But by nature they have got some regulative principle. A human being, advanced consciousness, instead of using it for advance in spiritual life they use it for sense gratification and thus they become lower than the animals. So as soon as one becomes irregulated, without any sadācāra, then he doesn't care for any sinful activities for maintaining his body and soul together. He doesn't mind. Their philosophy is, what is called? "Existence is the first law of nature," or something like... *Guest (1): Self*-preservation. *Prabhupāda: Self-preservation. So self-preservation... They do not know what is self-preservation. That is another ignorance. They consider this body as the self. Their self-preservation means to keep this body. And that is also not possible. If you do not follow regulative principles, it is not possible to keep your body in good condition. That is also not possible. Those who do not follow the regulative principles, mostly they are diseased, some kind. We find in the medical, modern medical shop the customers are educated people. Mass of people, they are not customers in the medical shop. You'll find it. They are not so much diseased. In every gentleman's house, modern, you'll find so many bottles of medicine. But you won't find such medical bottles in any house of less educated persons. They are not so diseased. So this is one of the items. If you want to advance in spiritual life you must follow the regulative principles to rectify your mistakes in the past life and this present life. Without being freed from all contamination nobody can understand God. That is not possible. Bhagavad-gītā says, yeṣāṁ anta gataṁ pāpaṁ: "One who has become completely freed from all kinds of sinful reaction," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, "Persons who are engaged in pious activities only," te, "such person," te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā... [Bg. 7.28]. This life, the material life, is dvandva. Dvandva means fighting or quarreling. Every one of us has got nature for fighting with others unnecessarily. Even some people come here with a spirit of fighting with me. So this is called dvandva and moha. How this fighting spirit becomes developed? On account of illusion. What is that illusion? Accepting this body as self. So if one is contaminated by sinful activity-if he is in illusion, how he can..., illusion of accepting this body as self-what is the meaning of their self-realization? He's illusioned. He'll keep himself in all kinds of contaminated life, and artificially he thinks that by some kind of mystic meditation he'll be all right. This is going on. No. One must follow. Meditation, yogic meditation, is also possible when there is yama, niyama, āsana, praṇāyāma*-the eight principles of yoga system. And nobody follows the eight principles of yoga system and simply sitting down and meditating, that will not help. The first two steps are yama, niyama, then āsana, then praṇāyāma, then pratyāhāra, then dhyāna, then dhāraṇā, then samādhi. These are explained in the yogic śāstra or Bhagavad-gītā. So this man, although born of a brāhmaṇa father... Now, here it is said that naṣṭa-sadācāra. Although he is born of a brāhmaṇa father, his ācāra, his dealings for advancing in spiritual life...A brāhmaṇa is expected to be truthful, to be self-controlled, to be fully cognizant of spiritual life, practical application in life, jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, to have complete faith in the statement of the śāstras. That is... That is called āstikyam. We, according to our Vedic system, we do not accept any other system of religion because we consider them nāstika. That is the primary principle. Nāstika means one who does not believe in the Vedas. He is called nāstika. Not that he does not believe in God. One may believe in God, but one who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is called nāstika. Veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika. Lord Buddha, although he is accepted as incarnation of God, but because he defied the Vedic principles it is said, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātaṁ. Lord Buddha criticized the, I mean to say, sacrificial ceremonies because in the sacrificial ceremonies sometimes there is recommendation of killing an animal. But he was preaching nonviolence. So he criticized even the sacrifice in yajña. He criticized. Nindasi... But a Vaiṣṇava is praying, "My dear Lord, you are defying the Vedic principles." He knows why the Lord is now defying the Vedic principles; *therefore he is devotee. In spite of Lord Buddha's defying the Vedic principles, a devotee is offering him obeisances. Keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He knows the Lord, how He is playing, how He is bewildering the atheistic class of men. The atheistic class of men did not believe in God. Lord Buddha says, "Yes, you don't require to believe in God. There is no God. But you feel yourself that when you are attacked with violence you feel pain. Why should you offer to others?" Because his mission was to stop animal killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darṣita-paśu-ghātam. The Supreme Lord became too much compassionate when he saw that people are unnecessarily killing animals, as it is going on still. Instead of... At least those who are claiming Buddhist, they are killing animals. Bruce, is it not? Yes. But in the Buddhist religion there is no sanction for killing animals. Yes? Guest (2): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Muhammad, he also did not believe in the Vedic literature. But according to Vedic literature, anyone who does not believe in the Vedic literature, he is nāstika. Just like the Mohammedans, they say, "Anyone who does not believe in Koran, he is kafir." The Christians say, "Anyone who does not believe in the Bible, they are heathens." That is there everywhere. Similarly, Lord Caitanya said that veda na manīyā bauddha haila nāstika. He is giving the definition because we have to follow the great personalities, great ācāryas. That is our process. We do not make any research, or we do not make any statement made by us. We simply accept the injunctions given by great ācāryas. Ācāryopāsanam. That is the process of Vedic system. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One must approach a spiritual master and learn from him. So whatever spiritual master says, that is accepted. Sādhu guru śāstra vākya. Real evidence is, it must be stated in the scriptures, it must be explained by the spiritual master or saintly persons. That is evidence. *Guest (3): Śastra*-vākya-pramāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Śāstra-vākya-pramāṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-gītā is being interpreted in so many foolish ways because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, pañca-pāṇḍava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnanārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction. So here it is said that kānyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a brāhmaṇa family. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born a śūdra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of śūdra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is śūdra. We also generally say, gadāh, less intelligent. So brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their... Brāhmaṇa, first-class because his intelligence is first-class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second-class. Vaiśya, his intelligence is third-class. And śūdra means fourth-class. And less than śūdra, they are called pañcama, caṇḍāla. They are accepted as animals, those who are less than śūdras. This is the Vedic system. Now, here it is said that this Ajamila, dvija... Dvija means he was properly initiated, second birth. First birth by father, mother, is śūdra. Anyone, even if he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born brāhmaṇa, born brāhmaṇa. Still, one is born brāhmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁskāras. So our, this... Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-and four divisions of spiritual life-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa-they are known as āśrama. Anyone can understand āśrama. As soon as there is āśrama that means "Here some men, saintly persons, spiritually advanced persons, lives." That is āśrama. So that āśrama, when a student follows the regulative principles, he is supposed to be situated in brahmacārī āśrama. A householder living with family, husband, wife, children, if they are following strictly the regulative principles-gṛhastha āśrama. Similarly, retired life, if he is following the regulative principles-the vānaprastha āśrama. Similarly, a renounced life, sannyāsa, if he is following the regulative principles, that is sannyāsa āśrama. Not that imitating somebody, I put on a saffron dress and I become a sannyāsī and by begging I live. This has killed the whole Hindu society or the sanātana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles but for solution of economic problem they dress themselves. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress without any knowledge. So here also, although Ajamila was born of a brāhmaṇa father and he was strictly following the regulative principles of a brāhmaṇa-that will be stated-but he fell. He fell in love with a prostitute And therefore his characters were lost. Naṣṭa-sadācāraḥ. The reason is why? Dāsyāḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. Because he associated with a prostitute, therefore his all regulative principles became lost. And as soon as you are lost of regulative principles then you take to all kinds of sinful activities. The regulative principles will keep you on the standard of life. If you give it up, then immediately you fall down, māyā. So this man Ajamila, because he was durācāra, naṣṭa-sadācāra, lost of all regulative principles on account of associating with a prostitute, then, although he was born of a brāhmaṇa family, he became... His livelihood was juha(?), bandy-akṣaiḥ, cheating and stealing. Bandy-akṣaiḥ kaitavaiś cauryaiḥ. Cauryaiḥ means stealing. Garhitāṁ vṛttim āsthitaḥ. This kind of profession is garhitā. Garhitāṁ means... Hitā means beneficial. But this profession is garhitā because it is not beneficial. Ultimately he will be punished either by the king's law or by the God's law. I can escape the king's law by doing something which is abominable but I cannot escape God's law. That is not possible. Therefore, although he is thinking that "Now I am cheating this person," or "I am stealing and getting some profit," that is not good for him. Just like a man is killing some man, another man. So that is not good for him because as soon as he will be arrested he'll be hanged. So they think that "I am cheating the state, I am cheating God, and I can go on gratifying my senses by all these activities," but that is stated in the śāstra as garhitā. Garhitā means it is not beneficial for you." Na sādhu mānye yato ātmano 'yam. In another place it is said, "These kinds of activities, vikarma, is not good ultimately." Na sādhu mānye yato ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. Although ātmā, the self, is different from this body*-that is the first lesson in spiritual life-still, this body, although temporary, but as soon as you accept this material body you will have to suffer according to the body. If you get a dog's body you suffer according to that. If you get a man's body... Suffering will be there more or less as soon as you get this material body. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva said, na sādhu mānye: "You are acting abominable. It is not good because you are already suffering in this body." Otherwise why you are stealing? You are in want of money. You are suffering. Therefore necessity is now law. Therefore you are accepting. Even you know that stealing is bad, still, you are accepting it because that is a suffering. So for some of your activities in the past life you are now suffering, and if you go on, continuing committing this nonsense, then you will again, you will have to again accept a body and you'll suffer. Therefore garhitāṁ. There are so many things to know but these things are not discussed nowadays. Very cheap thing: "You can do whatever you like. You simply meditate and become God, that's all." So much cheating is going on everywhere, all over the w Guest (4): (Hindi) Yesterday I had a talk with Bhagavati Hema. Prabhupāda: Accha. Guest (4): She told me to come for an interview. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your interview is finished? Guest (4): I have got most of my queries and answers but they remain, some. Prabhupāda: So you can inquire. But sometimes wrong report is published. Guest (4): People releases wrong report. I am a responsible man, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes, but some irresponsible report is published in that paper, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami says that Kṛṣṇa is everything and nothing." That... Guest (4): The very reading was abominable. Prabhupāda: That's it. Guest: (unintelligible) Guest (4): I really couldn't believe it. *Prabhupāda: No, in the reading matter he said that, "He was trained by his father to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, to observe Rathayātrā, and he was taught mṛdaṅga." These are all true. But anyone who worships Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and who follows the Hindu ceremonies, Rathayātrā, how he can say that "Hinduism nothing"? Just see how rascaldom. This is contradiction. Guest (4): Mahārāja, there is reason for that. Because that paper, the owner of that press is a Jain. And the Jains have a natural antipathy towards the ...?... Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. So how biased man can report? So therefore we are avoiding reports. Guest (4): (Hindi?) Prabhupāda: No, tape may be. But he also taped, that man. But he has misrepresented. Guest (4): I should like to ask one question, sir. Prabhupāda: All right, you can ask. But kindly publish rightly. Don't... Guest (4): Yes, yes. Guest (5): (unintelligible) Prabhupāda: [break] Still you want to inquire from her? Guest (4): From the entire business. Prabhupāda: So you can inquire from me. In my presence, you can inquire from me. Because, after all, they are my students, they may not be able to reply thoroughly. So if you have got any inquiries you can ask from me. Guest (4): Yes. Yes. Mahārāja, I am a teacher of Sanskrit and English in one of the higher secondary schools here and I am very much interested... Prabhupāda: So you join us. Simply lip sympathy will not do. Just like these boys and girls, they have joined wholeheartedly. So I do not find any Indians. Guest (4): I am ready to join but for my family liabilities. Is there is some...? Prabhupāda: So you can join. You are family man, so it is not that we have no family men. We have got many family men. Now, they are all family. These girls, they have got a husband. And some of them, they are living separately. Just like one of my students, Professor Howard Wheeler. He is married man. He is living separately. Not separately. He is also conducting our, one establishment, New Vrindaban. So it is not that one has to live with us. He can live separately also, but his whole life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Guest (4): I would like to live with you and tour with you. Prabhupāda: So why not come and live and tour with me? Who forbids you? But it is not possible to pay anything for your family expenditure. That is difficulty. We cannot pay anything but you can live with your family. That responsibility you can take. But I cannot pay you. That's not possible. Because we are maintaining by collecting alms. In that case it is not possible to pay something. There is... [break] It is selling all over Europe. (Hindi) Guest (4): Mahārāja, could you employ me in some...? Prabhupāda: Yes, employ, I can employ in any way. But there is no payment. Guest (4): I am M.A. in English, M.A. in Hindi. I am trying to devote myself to this work... Prabhupāda: So please come. Guest (4): But for my family liabilities... Prabhupāda: What amount you want for your family, minimum? Guest (4): Five hundred a month. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Yes, you require five hundred. I know that. That is not much. To maintain a family nowadays five hundred rupees is not much but where is the money? How can I pay you? Guest (4): I would be a very good asset to your publications work. Prabhupāda: That I know. You are qualified, educated boy. You can do it. But one thing I can do, that you can live with your family just like they are living. That I can arrange. And whatever food we can provide you have to accept. We can... We can arrange for the education of your children also, everything. But we cannot pay anything. That is not possible. We can take charge of the husband and wife. We can take charge of your children. But it is not possible to pay. And besides that, when there is question of payment the service is not good because the payment means he is serving the money. He is not serving the cause. (tape of kīrtana plays for a second) Guest (4): His old mother listens to these chantings. [break] Prabhupāda: No, no, he has appeared to establish dharma. So what is the dharma according... *Guest (4): Śāstra*-dharma. Śāstra means Ārya-samājī-pratiṣṭhā... Prabhupāda: So what is that śāstra veda dharma? Guest (4): Vedic dharma. Prabhupāda: So what is that? Explain it practically. Guest (4): Yama, niyama, samādhi, dhyāna... Prabhupāda: No, that is the process. So what is the end of dharma? *Guest (4): Self*-realization. Prabhupāda: What is that self? Guest (4): That is to be realized. (laughter) Prabhupāda: This is going on. One has no idea what is dharma, what is the end, but he becomes, "Oh, I have appeared for establishing dharma." And when he is asked, "What is that dharma?" "It is to be realized." Then what you have realized that you are preaching dharma? Guest (4): Sadācāra... Prabhupāda: Sadācāra is the means. Sadācāra is not the end. Guest (4): Can I know as to what made these young people want to leave the affluent present society and join this... Prabhupāda: Because they are sincere, seeking after... Guest (4): Pardon, sir? *Prabhupāda: They are sincere, sincerely seeking after. Their material business is finished because they have enjoyed enough of material things. Now there is spiritual inquiry. That is natural. When our material necessities are complete, we enjoy, then next stage is spiritual hankering. And that is explained in the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. After finishing karma-kāṇḍīya life... Karma-kāṇḍīya life means you do pious activities and enjoy life. That is called karma-kāṇḍīya. So... But the fact is that even you get your birth in a very rich family, you cannot avoid the sufferings of this material nature. Just like yesterday we had an interview with Holkar(?), His Highness Holkar, the old gentleman. So he was a king. He has got very beautiful wife, very beautiful family, very palatial building, but he is not happy, we saw. So the foolish people, they do not know that in this material life there is no happiness. They hanker after these palatial buildings, the motor cars, the bank balance, and so on, so on. Therefore those who have enjoyed all these things but have not become happy, there is another inquiry: "How to become happy?" [break] ...say America, they have enjoyed material life. Their children have enjoyed material life to the fullest extent but they are not happy. Therefore they have come to this spiritual life. Guest (4): Last night in your learned discourse you said that you're supposed to found a temple in this city. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): But you preach the Vedic mārga. Don't you think that instead of building a temple, āśramas in this brahmacārī model would be... Prabhupāda: Yes. And without temple the brahmacārīs will be vyabhicāris. (laughter) Guest (4): That āśrama becomes a temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, that we... Wherever we have got a center we have got a temple and at the same time teaching. These two things must go parallel. If simply dry teachings go on and there is no temple worship, then gradually he will glide down to vyabhicāri instead of brahmacārī. Guest (4): Besides the chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and arousing(?) this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the people, what else are you doing to establish the way...? Prabhupāda: That you have seen this morning. We are teaching every day the śāstra. They are not simply chanting. Their chanting is based on understanding. Therefore they are sticking.(?) Guest (4): Mahārāja, the educational system of this country has so much deteriorated. I have been studying. I see young people of different colleges, boys and girls taking to LSD even in this city and doing to all sorts of nonsense. What is the best...? Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. As soon as there is indulgence in illicit sex life, all bad qualification will come. That I was explaining. Guest (4): And Mahārāja, what are your impressions of the youth of this country? Prabhupāda: I have no estimation of this country or that country. I know everywhere, because spiritual education is lacking, everywhere the boys and girls are fallen. Guest (4): Is secularism coming in way of spreading spiritual education? Prabhupāda: Secularism is a bogus thing. You see? That is an indulgence, "Whatever you like, you can do. Whatever religion you follow, that's all..." No. That is not good. The state should be responsible for the spiritual progress of the citizens. Now, especially in our country, we say it is Hindustan, Bhāratavarṣa. So we are not giving the bhāratīya or Hindu spiritual cultural education. So that's a great loss of the secular state. Guest (4): Do you think that the present democratic system will be able to impart a spiritual education? Prabhupāda: No. Guest (4): Then what system do you advocate? Prabhupāda: Of course, so far Vedic culture is concerned, they advocated monarchy because the one man's training, a good king guided by the brahminical culture, although it was autocratic sometimes, but because the king was very cultured there was no possibility of doing any harm to the citizens. But democracy means simply they are given the post by votes, and they may be all rascals. Then what they can think of good to the citizens? Guest (4): Mahārāja, don't you think that monarchy (unclear) Prabhupāda: No, that is also not possible. And therefore we are training people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And when the Kṛṣṇa conscious people will elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders there will be peace and prosperity. And now, because the minority is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they cannot elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders and therefore havoc is being played. Guest (4): Mahārāja, do you think the West is being Hinduized? Prabhupāda: The "Hinduized" is a sectarian view. We are not... Guest (4): I mean this, being brought up on sanātana culture. Prabhupāda: Vedic ways. Yes. You can... The perfect word is Vedic civilization. Guest (4): Vedic civilization. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is original civilization. Out of Vedic civilization there are so many outcome now, but if you go originally to the Vedic civilization, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find the word is vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. That means to follow the Vedic way of life means to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (5): (unclear) Prabhupāda: Yes, Vedic way means they are following principles, regulative principles. Guest (5): So what principle? *Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. That is a big principle. But it has been shortened, shortened in this age. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. In the Kali*-yuga you cannot reform the whole population by any other means except this harer nāma. Therefore we are introducing Hare Kṛṣṇa movement everywhere. Guest (4): Mahārāja, do the Western and Eastern societies respond differently to this call... Prabhupāda: No. You cannot say that. Two plus two equal to four everywhere, East and West. There is no difference, East and West. It is scientific. It is vijñaṇa. So when you call of, talk of science, there is no difference of understanding in the East and West. The same thing is understood. Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama*-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama. Guest (4): Where are they to be trained, then? How are they... Prabhupāda: That we are proposing. When we open a center we shall train anyone. It doesn't matter whether he is born in a śūdra family or brāhmaṇa family. Just like they are born in a different family other than brāhmaṇa but they are now brāhmaṇa because after being trained up. Guest (4): (Hindi) ...regard, you said that monarchy and democracy, both are systems which cannot help this cause. Then... Prabhupāda: No, why cannot help? If... Monarchy means the king was properly trained up. Similarly, in the democracy, if people are properly trained up, then they will vote for nice men and there will be nice government. Now, because the people are not trained, they are practically asses. The votes of the asses, what has the meaning? If the majority are asses, then one ass will be elected. That's all. So when the executive head is an ass what benefit he can do to the people? Guest (5): I see. Guest (4): Mahārāja, you said that you had been misrepresented in that report which appeared yesterday in one of the dailies of the cities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): How could you like to mend your statement? *Prabhupāda: My statements are clear there but he has mis*-stated in the heading with ulterior purpose. Guest (4): I think he has... Prabhupāda: Young men of cities, they may come to me and be trained up in the spiritual life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) So long you'll ask me to keep here, provided you are serious of taking training from me... Guest (4): I am very much serious. Prabhupāda: Then you are welcome. I am asking young men like you to come and join me. Guest (5): (unintelligible) Prabhupāda: Aiye. Yes. I am speaking in English because my students, they cannot understand Hindi. But if educated young boys like you come they will be also able to understand English, so there will be no difficulty. Guest (4): Thank you, Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Replay little. [break] Please try to understand the philosophy. Thank you. Yes. (Hindi) So you are welcome. You come. Live with us with your family. We take charge of you. But if you ask some salary, that is not possible. That is not possible. Guest (4): I have my sisters and mother and father to support. Prabhupāda: So let them come, all, and live with me. (Hindi) That's nice. (Hindi). That I can take. But if you want money, that is not possible. Guest (5): No, I don't want money. Prabhupāda: Then you come with your whole family. (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: Don't be dependent. Be dependent on Kṛṣṇa. To live here means to become dependent on Kṛṣṇa. That is there(?). You have to become dependent either to your master or to your boss or to your brother or to somebody else. But if you become dependent on Kṛṣṇa your whole problem is solved. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Don't consider about money. (Hindi) ...did not care for the family. For political emancipation they sacrificed so much. Guest (5): Perhaps they are the people, the older followers of... Prabhupāda: Not always these people. Not all. (Hindi) We have created this problem. (Hindi) [break] You'll get your bread, bara, and somebody will fill up your belly. (Hindi) It is not possible. (Hindi) Guest (6): Swamiji, suppose one wants to become life member... They can't pay whole money in one charge. They want to pay in installments. Prabhupāda: That's nice. We shall accept. Oh, yes. Guest (6): They told me that it is impossible for them to pay whole sum. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Let him pay by... Guest (6): They are ready to pay two or three installments. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is accepted. Please bring them. Guest (6): One man, that Bengali person, he is coming. He wants to become member but he is telling that "I am unable to pay whole..." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That doesn't matter. Let him pay by installments. Guest (6): I told him I will ask you, whether you are ready or not. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (6): He is coming daily, that man. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mr. Chakravarti or Chatterjee. Yes. Guest (6): Chatterjee. He is scared of people.(?) Prabhupāda: He is good boy. Yes. No. He had the cap on his head, sweater, cap and pant. Guest (6): Yesterday he was asking me to ask you. Prabhupāda: Where is my stick? Give me a glass of water. [break] Guest (6): I am ready to pay installments. Prabhupāda: Then there is no problem. You come and join me. If you want... Guest (6): Let me get degree. Prabhupāda: You get your degree. That's all right. Finish your education. If I'll be able to open a center, nice center, I shall call so many people, "Come and live with me and be trained up." I am just writing one advertisement. We shall have to publish it. Just read it. *Haṁsadūta: "Wanted: qualified brāhmaṇas for preaching Bhagavad*-gītā all over the world. (laughter) Candidates accepted without any discrimination of caste and creed. Apply ISKCON." Yamunā: Oh, ho, ho, Prabhupāda! *Haṁsadūta: "Life member can send any member of his family for being trained up as a qualified brāhmaṇa who can preach Bhagavad*-gītā as it is all over the world." You're going to put this in the newspaper? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Haṁsadūta: Oh, that will be nice. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: Oh, that's a wonderful notice, Prabhupāda. It's so wonderful. Prabhupāda: We have to preach all over the world. We require so many men, so many boys, girls, men we want. Haṁsadūta: I should send this to the GBC members... Haṁsadūta: ...in the West, and they should put ads in the paper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let us have application. Haṁsadūta: Should I copy it down? Prabhupāda: Yes, you take it. You take it. Type it. Himāvatī: Prabhupāda, in Calcutta Madhudviṣa advertised like that at one meeting, and the next day a man came... Prabhupāda: Only one man? Haṁsadūta: Two men came. Himāvatī: With his six children and his wife, they were prepared, "Let us live here. We will see." Prabhupāda: Yes. Himāvatī: And another old man that was so old that he was ready to die. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then you write, "Young men." No, even old man, there is no question. That we can test, whether he is able, he is a qualified brāhmaṇa. First of all he is qualified brāhmaṇa. Himāvatī: You were going to Peruda(?) that day, so we said, "When we return, then you come and join us." But when we returned they didn't come. They changed their mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. They cannot. They cannot. Only young men can join. Old men cannot join. (Hindi) Guest (6): Asoka Kumar. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I remember. So please, after finishing your education you come and join this great movement. They are joining Communist movement, this movement, that movement. Why not a real genuine movement for the welfare of the whole? Guest (6): I am not joining any... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say... Guest (6): I want to join... Prabhupāda: Generally they join. Generally they join. Guest (6): My brother also agrees to stay with you. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Guest (6): From today I am ready to join you. Prabhupāda: No, you finish your education. That will be a good qualification. Guest (6): Why not you are paying a visit in Lakhpur(?). There is a very big *Gītā* Mandir. Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is *Gītā* Mandir. Here there is also big *Gītā* Mandir. Guest (6): No, there... Here they have mixture of many gods. Not like that. There is only one *Gītā*, and all, the whole temple, belongs to *Gītā* and nothing else. Prabhupāda: So if they invite, I can go. Why don't you ask them to invite us? Then we can go immediately. Guest (6): Whole temple there is a pracāra(?) *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: But how many preachers they have produced? Guest (6): You must be knowing that Vidyananda, Swami Vidyananda. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's a great nonsense. Guest (6): Oh, no. Prabhupāda: I know. Guest (6): He has constructed that from Gujarat. He's a Gujārati. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (6): He constructed a temple there. Prabhupāda: I have seen in Ahmedabad his temple. He established one deity, a woman shape, and there is no Kṛṣṇa. "Gītā." "Gītā" means a woman. So I don't think he has full understanding of Gītā. He has money; *he has spent. That's all. But he does not understand Gītā. Gītā means unless one takes Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead he does not understand anything of Gītā. That is the test. He may advertise himself as scholar or this or that, but our only test is whether he accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the test. Is that person accepting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? He himself accepts that "I am God." Is it not? Therefore he's a foolish. He is squandering money, public money. That's all. That is his business. He might have some qualification to collect money, but he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (6): He's all (unclear). Prabhupāda: But I think he is dead. Guest (6): He is dead now or he... Sadhanananda is dead, Swami Sadhananda. *Prabhupāda: I know. So that is the test. That is the test. Therefore it is a revolutionary movement. Even so*-called followers of Gītā, they will be caught up by this movement as rascals. Because the real purpose of Gītā they do not know. Real purpose of Gītā is to know Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi madhava [Bg. 10.14]. And Arjuna says that "Whatever You have said, they're all right and I accept them in toto without any revision." So Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." One who does not understand Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Person, what he has read Gītā? He is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply has labored. That's all. That is the test. Don't you agree to this point? So anyone who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has no knowledge of Gītā. He immediately becomes foolish. That is our test. So Muktananda, what do you think? Muktananda: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the test, whether he has understood. In the Seventh Chapter, Guest (6): (unclear)... From the very day I saw this movement, I have intent only in Kṛṣṇa, not in any other movement. Prabhupāda: So that is our movement. Wherever we go, we find out sincere persons, immediately attract. Yes. But if he's not sincere, we cannot attract. If he's sincere, immediately attract. That is the value of this movement. All my students, they were attracted only because they were sincere. Anyone sincere in seeking after the Absolute Truth will be attracted. Guest (6): I am not getting ...(unclear) *Prabhupāda: Ekāgra. Ekāgra. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, therefore it is said. "One has to perform this bhakti*-yoga under My representative." Mad-āśrayaḥ. Guest (6): I am very grateful to you. *Prabhupāda: And there is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura*-Prārthanā. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tare tyāge: "One who takes āśraya, shelter of a devotee, Kṛṣṇa does not give him up. Kṛṣṇa accepts him." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ... **. Because if that person who is giving shelter, if he's pleased, Kṛṣṇa is immediately... If he recommends a fool, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, here is a devotee," Kṛṣṇa will accept immediately. It doesn't matter whether he's a fool or rascal. Because he is recommended by representative, he will be accepted. Yasya pra... This is the meaning of yasya prasādad bhagavat-pra... Without his recommendation there is no entry in Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Yasya-prasādad na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If he displeases Kṛṣṇa's representative he has no entrance to the Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, however learned he may be or whatever he may be. Immediately rejected. In a business office, suppose a secretary is there. A clerk does not accept the order of the secretary. Immediately he should be dismissed. In my personal experience, when I was young manager in a big chemical concern, one correspondent clerk, he disobeyed me. I reported to the head boss. He immediately came and he said, "Get out immediately from the office." And he wanted to plead in so many ways. Said, "No, I don't want. If you don't go out, then I shall call my doorman. He will forcibly get you out. Get out." I was sorry because this man is dismissed immediately, but he took. Disobedient... "Obedience is first discipline." So if Kṛṣṇa's representative is disobeyed-"Get out immediately." Kṛṣṇa is very strict. Guest (6): (unclear) ...From tomorrow he was not able to get (unclear) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. Yes. Therefore in our system Vaiṣṇavāparādha is the greatest offense, to commit offense at the lotus feet of a Vaiṣṇava, and spiritual master is to be considered the first Vaiṣṇava. If there is aparādha, that is great, greatest offense. That will spoil the whole spiritual life. These are stated in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. In Teachings of Lord Caitanya you'll find. Guest (6): In yesterday's paper I read that somebody donated some land to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. He has proposed to donate; not he has done. Where you learned this? Guest (6): In that (unclear) Prabhupāda: Yes, somebody has promised. Somebody has promised. *Guest (6): And it will (unclear) Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa mandir, I will possibly able to get (unclear) Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Guest (6): Swamiji, you are here still. Prabhupāda: But if somebody gives me land I may go on staying here. Guest (6): No, no, father and mother, they are forcing me to leave you all in my home. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Guest (6): It is nearby. Prabhupāda: Your father, mother, cannot come here? Guest (6): They want you to come. Revatīnandana: They've come here before. Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore *Prabhupāda: ...your devatā finished. But your relationship with Kṛṣṇa will never finish*-nityo nityānāṁ-because you are nitya, Kṛṣṇa is nitya. That relationship, we have to reestablish that relation. That is the function of the human body. If you are simply busy with this temporary nature, then you are losing time. The temporary relationship will... Just like I came here; *now, tomorrow I am going. So, say, for fortnight the relation was there. Now you'll have another relation. Similarly, after this body I do not know what relation, what father, mother, I will get and what relation will be established. What community will be established I do not know. And then I will forget. Now those who are Indian, but suppose in his last birth he was Chinaman. He has forgotten. Now he's fighting for India's cause. If the Chinaman is fighting for China's cause. This is disease. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. We are ready to serve all the dayitas(?), but eternal servitude is Kṛṣṇa. That we have to establish. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Then, after leaving this body, he has no more to accept this material body and create another society, another family, another relationship, another atmosphere. So because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, in Kṛṣṇa society, therefore we are dividing. Suppose one animal is born in India or in America. We don't take him as "my brother. He is also born in the same national." No. He kills it. He gives protection only to the animal with hands and legs, not to the animals who are four*-legged. Because he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore his knowledge is imperfect. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. We are fighting between the different religions because there is no Kṛṣṇa religion, no eternal religion, temporary religion. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu ," "I am Muslim." Therefore, to solve all the problems the Kṛṣṇa consciousness: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. Take to Kṛṣṇa; *everything will be solved. So they are reading Bhagavad*-gītā but they do not know this. Therefore we have to preach. For thirteen years they are attending this Bhagavad-gītā class or Gītā Bhavan, but nobody knows that this is the Gītā, this is the fact. Why? (Hindi) You tell me. So Bhagavad-gita As It Is we are presenting, as it is. Then it will be nice. If you understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you'll be profited. If you make your irrelevant commentaries, that "Kṛṣṇa means this, and Pāṇḍava means this, and the Kurukṣetra means another thing, another thing," volumes of books and years together lecturing, what is benefit? You do not know the principles. Simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Prabhupāda: You have heard about our philosophy? You have heard about our philosophy? Guest (1) (Indian man): Whatever I have read, but, you see, I don't believe what I have read. I believe only whatever I have talked to you, whatever you have said. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is another thing. But still, what is your conception of our philosophy? What is that teaching? Guest (1): Whose? My? Prabhupāda: No, as we are? Guest (1): No, I have understood what I have heard from you, what is your conception of God, I have not understood. *Prabhupāda: Our conception of God is that He is a transcendental person. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvara means Lord. The Supreme Lord is a person. As you are person, He is also person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānāṁ. He is the leader, and we are all led. Or He is the master; *we are the servitors. That is our self*-realization, to understand that "I am eternal servant of God." In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ: [Bg. 15.7] "Eternally all the living entities are My part and parcels." So as the part and parcel of anything is to serve the cause of the whole, similarly, all living entities, their only business is to serve the Supreme. That is all. Guest (1): Swamiji, I have understood that the...(indistinct)... if *Gītā* is written afterwards by Sanjaya, then... Prabhupāda: Then what? *Guest (1): Then just to prove... (indistinct) According to me, when Lord Kṛṣṇa... (indistinct) When the ātmā goes into the trance, the mind goes into the trance, and into the śuddha*-sattva, then he gets the vision of all, past, future, and present. *Prabhupāda: First thing that you said, that Bhagavad*-gītā was given in seven verses, and later on, Vyāsadeva has expanded. Now, suppose accepting that Vyāsadeva has expanded, do you find any difference between Vyāsadeva's explanation and the original seven verses? Guest (1): No. Of course, that is... (unintelligible) *Prabhupāda: Then, accepting even that Vyāsadeva has expanded, so there is no difference. Therefore, even if we take the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is presented by Vyāsadeva, so there is nothing to be said against it. Guest (1): Nothing. Prabhupāda: Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he gave us only eight verses, Śikṣāṣṭaka. But our Gosvāmīs, they have written volumes of books on that eight verses. But there is no difference of the writings of the Gosvāmīs and the original eight verses. That is not very important thing. Guest (1): One more, sir. Lord Kṛṣṇa has never asked Arjuna to sit and do bhajana. He said, uttiṣṭha mām anusmara yuddhya: [Bg. 8.7] "Get up and fight! And fight! And fight! That fight, that is your right." I'll fight. That is... Prabhupāda: Yes. So fight with whom? Guest (1): "Fight with your enemy." Prabhupāda: Who is your enemy? Guest (1): Even physical, bodily, whatever it is, whatever it is, but you must know who your enemies are. Your enemy may be my friend. (part indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's nice proposal. Unless you find an enemy, how you can fight? So of course, we do not say... We Vaiṣṇavas do not say that there is no need of fighting. We never say. When there is need of fighting we must fight. Rather, somebody in New York, some Goldsmith, he was that, "Why Kṛṣṇa is advising Arjuna to fight, to become violent?" So somebody protests like that. But there is no meaning of protesting against the action of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our view. So we Vaiṣṇavas, we are chanting. It does not mean that when there is need of fighting with avaiṣṇava we shall lack in strength. We can fight. One gentleman inquired from me that "Vaiṣṇavism makes one dull. He cannot act." And, "No. You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava." In the two fightings, great fighting, the *Rāmāyaṇa* and *Mahābhārata*, the hero was Hanuman and Arjuna, and they fought. Guest (1): They fought. Prabhupāda: Yes. And who can be better Vaiṣṇava than them? Guest (1): Nobody. Prabhupāda: So Vaiṣṇava does not mean he is dull. No. Guest (1): No, that is well proved. If there is need... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So our present fighting is atheism, against atheism. They say, "There is no God. God is dead. I am God. You are God." We are fighting against these principles. So our fighting is very strong. You don't think that we are keeping idly. I have come here to fight with these atheists, you see, and we go everywhere. We are fighting with atheists all over the world. So we are meeting so many opposing elements. You see? They say, "God is dead." In America, when I first went, they were popularizing theory that "God is dead." But they again accepted and: God is not dead, but He is here with Swamiji." They accepted. So these atheistic theories, that "Everyone is God," "I am God," "you are God," "God is dead," "there is no God," "God is not person"*-we are fighting against these principles. We say, "God is Kṛṣṇa. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. He is a person, and He is not dead." This is our preaching. Therefore it is a fight. Guest (1): He is not dead. He is not dead. Prabhupāda: How He can be dead? How you can think of like that, that God is dead? That is foolishness. Guest (1): If you say God is dead, that means you are... that is your own ignorance. Prabhupāda: So we are fighting against this ignorance, so many ignorance. And at the present moment so many theories and religious principles have sprung up unnecessarily. You see? But we are sticking to the principle that the only religion is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is real religion: surrender. Guest (1): Complete surrender. *Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. That is real religion. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityjya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These are Kṛṣṇa's words. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Prapadyate*-that is surrender. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. These words are there. Guest (1): I like only the last ślokas... (indistinct)... where Lord Kṛṣṇa analyzes and... (indistinct) ...but to bring your mind and ātmā together that process is called yoga. *Prabhupāda: But you know that Kṛṣṇa said, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatenāntarātmanā: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogis, one who is always thinking of Me within his mind, he is first-class." Do you accept this? Guest (1): Of all the yoginām? *Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: "Of all the yogis..." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. That is the last verse of the yoga chapter, sāṅkhya*-yoga chapter. Yoginām... When Arjuna said that "This practice of aṣṭāṅga-yoga is not possible for me." Guest (1): No, of course not. *Prabhupāda: No, he said. When he said like that, so Kṛṣṇa answered, "Yes, practice. If you practice, it can be possible. But still, anyone..." He summarized the whole yoga process, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: "Of all yogis, anyone who is thinking of Me always, he is the first*-class yogi." *Guest (1): That is karma*-yoga. *Prabhupāda: Why do you say karma*-yoga? Where you get this? *Guest (1): "Whatever you do." "Whatever you do." It is not written that you should do the aṣṭāṅga*-yoga. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that "Anyone who is always think..." Karma*-yogi also always thinks of Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Kṛṣṇa within his mind. Premāñjana-cchurita... That is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. This kind of practice of yoga can be done by an unalloyed devotee. Premāñjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is... That is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as ātmā, are you not? That's not correct. Mind is not ātmā. Guest (1): No, no, mind is not ātmā. No. The ātmā and mind, they come together, each other come. When your mind does not go from here to there... Prabhupāda: Yes, mind fixed up in ātmā. That's nice. But mind is not ātmā. Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupāda: Mind is matter, subtle matter. Guest (1): Certainly. That is the laws. Prabhupāda: Mind is kind of fume of the ātmā. So mind becomes, changes the color of the fume according to the state of the ātmā. If the ātmā is in pure state, then mind is pure. If the ātmā is impure state, the mind is impure. So we have taught all our disciples, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ [Bg. 9.14], always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ [Bg. 9.14]. Guest (1): Satataṁ kīrtayanto yo māṁ... *Prabhupāda: No. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ: "One who is always chanting about Me and endeavoring with great determination to reach Me, he is mahātmā." *Guest (1): As you have said, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu vā mad*-bhakteṣ... *Prabhupāda: Tiṣṭhāmi. That's it. Therefore a devotee's position is sublime. Kṛṣṇa comes as a devotee also. Actually this happened. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he happened to be a Mohammedan, Lord Caitanya's devotee. So in those days, five hundred years ago, there was some Hindu*-Muslim... Still that is going on. So he did not enter Jagannātha temple to create some disturbance. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also did not ask him that "You go to Jagannātha temple. Who can check you?" Of course, if Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered, he would have gone. Neither he wanted to go, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You must go." Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come to him. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. This is the practical. He came to the devotee where he was chanting. So instead of approaching God, if you chant, God will approach you. That is a fact, we see. Instead of Haridāsa Ṭhākura going to Jagannātha, Jagannātha Himself was coming to him. Every day Lord Caitanya would come and ask and sit down, "How you are feeling? What you are doing?" Then He would go to take bath in Samudra. Daily. It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... And when Haridāsa Ṭhākura expired, He personally took the body and cremated on the bank of the Samudra and he performed the funeral ceremony. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was so... And he was given the title nāmācārya, "authority of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." Very nice that you are cultivating this knowledge. It is very nice. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. This cultivation of spiritual knowledge means perfection of life. But people do not try for it. Therefore Gītā says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: "Out of many thousands of men, one may try to cultivate knowledge for spiritual advancement." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many such persons who are cultivating spiritual knowledge, hardly one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa." Guest (1): Very correct. To understand Him is a lot. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. To understand Kṛṣṇa... Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa, but still, to such an extent, if one can understand Him, then he immediately becomes liberated. Immediately. And not to speak of developing his love of Kṛṣṇa, simply by knowledge, by real knowledge, if one understands Kṛṣṇa, that is sufficient to make him liberated. And those who are devotees, for them liberation is very insignificant. Muktir mukulitāñjaliḥ sevate 'sman. *Guest (1): On the first day of this inauguration, and there were definitions about karma*-yoga. *Prabhupāda: Oh, the governor. (laughter) Just see. He is speaking of karma*-yoga. Slaughtering ten thousand cows, that is karma-yoga. This nonsense speaking of karma-yoga. Guest (1): So actually I shall present... Prabhupāda: The governor became little perturbed. He wanted to go immediately. You were present? And when the other men began to speak all hodgepodge... Guest (1): I like your one sentence that day. Whatever is according to the śāstras, that is correct. I agree to it. Nobody says that. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Guest (1): That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Karma done does not mean that you manufacture something and it becomes a karma. Guest (1): It is written, whatever, in śāstras. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): That is karma*-yoga. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just going to explain all this karma, vikarma, akarma. Guest (1): What does he know? (laughs) *Prabhupāda: In India, the land of sages, land of Kṛṣṇa, land of Lord Rāmacandra, land of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, without any restriction cow slaughter is going on. And they are speaking of karma*-yoga. Just see the fun. Guest (1): I don't know where this India is going to, the land of Kṛṣṇa is going to. Prabhupāda: Well... No, we should try our best. Guest (1): We have to fight these habits. It is our duty. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. So you are a military man. I request you to fight against this nonsense. Guest (1): Swami, I wish you could come sometime. I will gather section of some people. Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll go. I'll go. Where? Just fix up some time. Guest (1): Because I am very near to temple, only 100 yards. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That Takat? (?) Takat? Guest (1): No, not Takat. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see, oh. We are thinking of having a branch near that Takat, in that Takat colony. What is your idea? Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness center. Is that a good locality? Guest (1): I'll tell you. I'll fight Tukori(?). (indistinct)... Prabhupāda: All right. No, no. Think twice before doing. Haṁsadūta: Tuesday morning, December 15th? Guest (1): Tuesday morning? Morning, I have to go to a village somewhere. Prabhupāda: You give them after seven. Guest (1): Ah, no, whenever opportunity. Prabhupāda: All right, then make... Haṁsadūta: Evenings are all engaged. Prabhupāda: Oh, evenings are... But evenings up to which date? Tuesday? Guest (1): Up to the sixteenth. Prabhupāda: Up to the sixteenth? Then probably on the seventeenth we may go. Not fixed up, but there is chance. That is chance because we are thinking of an appointment with the prime minister in Delhi by the eighteenth, so if that is fixed up, then we have to start. Guest (1): (discusses date for engagement with Haṁsadūta) Prabhupāda: Is there any engagement, for...? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: When? Haṁsadūta: (discusses date for engagement with 1) Yamunā: Fifteenth is the appearance day of His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Prabhupāda: Fifteenth is the appearance date? ? Oh, then we have to perform. Haṁsadūta: What are we supposed to do? Fast? Prabhupāda: We shall fast up till twelve and then offer puṣpāñjali and then chant, as far as we can supply. Guest (1): So Tuesday afternoon from three to four. Prabhupāda: Yes. You write his name. Haṁsadūta: May I have your name? Guest (1): Major Ghun N. Susuy(?) Prabhupāda: You are Maharastrian. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Maharastrians, they are fighting nation. Haṁsadūta: Telephone? Prabhupāda: Telephone? Telephone? Guest (1): Telephone, no, I haven't got. Prabhupāda: Maharastrian spirit and Bengali spirit, almost... Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): (Hindi?) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. These boys also, from their childhood they are addicted to so many things. Gave up immediately. Guest (1): That's nice. *Prabhupāda: Immediately on my word they gave up. Meat*-eaters, they have been described by Canakya Pandit. Guest (1): Though we are kṣatriyas, but nobody takes meat in our house. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas are allowed to take meat by hunting, not by slaughterhouse. Not all, but some of them. Guest (1): When you can't get anything to eat, then only you can do that. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...not in my sannyāsa stage. Long ago accepted sannyāsa. Sometimes in 1945. Guest (1): Are you going there now this month? Prabhupāda: No, I can go everywhere if the arrangement... Aiye. Guest (1): (Hindi discussion with other Indians) Yamunā: Janaka Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Canakya, Canakya Pandit. He was a great politician and brāhmaṇa. Yamunā: Was he in Lord Caitanya's time? Prabhupāda: No, no. He was five thousand years..., not. Three thousand years. Haṁsadūta: He was a great devotee? Devotee: No. Haṁsadūta: No? Guest (1): He was politician. He was a mathematician. Prabhupāda: He was very learned scholar, brāhmaṇa, rigid brāhmaṇa. That's all. Guest (1): He was insulted once in boyhood by something of Mahātmānanda. Prabhupāda: Nanda. Guest (1): Then he took oath that "All right, today I turn my (indistinct) and one day I will dethrone you from here. Then you can call me (indistinct)," and he went away. (tells story) Haṁsadūta: Great determination. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: He was a great devotee? Prabhupāda: No. Yamunā: So he's not authority. Prabhupāda: No, no, he was not authority in the spiritual sense. He was a politician, moralist, politician. That's all. Worldly man. Haṁsadūta: How many people will be there? Guest (1): Swamiji, you were telling something? Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't find... [break] ...vanaṁ sattvaṁ na durjante, sattva vasanti, tad eva ca durjanas tu pade pade. This is another verse. Guest (1): (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: So we made some life member. Is there any possibility of getting, enrolling some life member? That...? Guest (1): Life member means...? Prabhupāda: Institution. We want some life members. Otherwise how we can conduct this institution? (indistinct) Through telegram? Or reply? Haṁsadūta: I think it was returned. Prabhupāda: Who sent? Haṁsadūta: Gita Bhavan Sect.(?), Gita Bhavan Marg, Indore. "Please reply definite arrival time, Surat. Very anxious. Janwal, care of (indistinct)." That's how he replied. Prabhupāda: So there we are already engaged. Cannot go Surat immediately. Let us follow that. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his version. Version. There is no cost. Simply (indistinct). Haṁsadūta: So what is the program there? Prabhupāda: Never mind. "Due to heavy engagement, cannot go Surat immediately. Letter follows." Devotee (2): Motorcycle...(indistinct) Prabhupāda: Are you sure, that motorcycle? Can? To go and come back here for attending meeting here? By train? How far it is? Haṁsadūta: About fifteen minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. That's all. Haṁsadūta: No, no, we won't take any prasādam today.(?) We are fasting till noon because it is the appearance day of our Guru Mahārāja's spiritual master. Yamunā: Disappearance. Haṁsadūta: Disappearance? Oh. We won't be taking anything at all. Nothing. Prabhupāda: Up to twelve we don't take. Fast. Guest (1): (indistinct) ...in my house? Prabhupāda: Whatever arrangement you do, that's all right. But if some of you members become our life members, that will be... Haṁsadūta: Have you seen our books? Would you like to see? Prabhupāda: So you can explain. [break] ...the footprints of liberated predecessors like Manu and others. So they are conditioned. Therefore their rules and regulations are not perfect. It cannot be perfect. *Haṁsadūta: Here is our monthly magazine, Back to Godhead. These are our... (indistinct) This is in Washington, D.C. This is in Berkeley, California. That magazine is being printed in six languages: Hindi, English, French, German, and Japanese, and Bengali. Bengali is not yet out, but it's coming. Then Prabhupāda started presenting these books while he was still in India. This book was published in 1965. This was printed in India, the First Canto of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. The First Canto comprises three volumes like this, the First Canto. And then the following Cantos are being printed by our own press in America in Boston, like this, chapter by chapter, so that people can take advantage of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and read it at their convenience instead of... Guest (1): (indistinct) *Haṁsadūta: And here, Kṛṣṇa Book, is the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda calls it, "Kṛṣṇa: The Supreme Personality of Godhead." And it's full of illustrations which are done by his American students. Just see how beautiful. There are eighty-four full color illustrations that show the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa. So the people in the western world and for the first time in the history of the world will get an idea of who God is, what He looks like, what He does, where He's residing. This is the Kṛṣṇa Book, in two volumes. This is volume number one and this is volume number two. This is just a blueprint. We haven't got a printed copy yet. Then Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, which you must be familiar with, in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya and there are also illustrations although they're not color. They're black and white. Guest (1): Śrī Tukārāma is disciple of Caitanya. Prabhupāda: He also went through in Maharastra by His chanting, (indistinct) *Haṁsadūta: And most important, Prabhupāda has presented Bhagavad*-gītā. He calls it "Bhagavad-gītā As It Is." He explains in the introduction that till now there's been so many Bhagavad-gitas printed in all languages and all of them are misrepresenting. They have not presented Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They are trying to present Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. They want to leave out the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā and put themselves forward. So Prabhupāda has presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is and therefore this movement has taken such hold because the real thing is being presented. This is in San Francisco, California. Then, the Nectar of Devotion, Rūpa Gosvāmī's book Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, also there. This book is the lawbook of devotional service. Īśopaniṣad, word for word translation, then the complete English translation and purport by His Divine Grace. So these books are (indistinct) bhakti-yoga (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa consciousness (indistinct) explaining the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we have so much literature. And in India we've introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four types of membership. One is life membership. Life membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free and if he happens to travel abroad or in India. We will have our branches. So that life membership fee is 1,111 rupees. And then we have donor membership. The donor member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And subscriber membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. Or there is membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way we're trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature. So in this way we can flood the whole world with Kṛṣṇa consciousness and then there'll be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Kṛṣṇa in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs. Guest (1): Swamiji, open a center here. Prabhupāda: I wish to. I wish to open a center. Guest (1): No, no, now? Prabhupāda: Not yet. Guest (1): And how many centers in India? Prabhupāda: Practically, three. *Guest (1): Swami, did you come across these Brahma*-kumaris? They preach something else. Prabhupāda: That is something else. Everyone knows it. *Guest (1): Once they... I was in ... So they were passing through, teaching some Kṛṣṇa or something, and their Bhagavad*-gita was something else. Prabhupāda: That is going on. [break] There may be musical performance but here it is by the pure devotees. That is different thing. Now, here don't you see in the *Gītā* Bhavan? When others perform kīrtana nobody takes part. And they cannot continue that kīrtana more than five minutes. But we can continue our kīrtana for five hours without any... Haṁsadūta: If we stayed there for five hours everyone would chant. (indistinct conversation) *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, mahāmantra they can also do, but it will not be effective because they are not pure. Here is the secret. We have... Our devotees, they are anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ [Brs. 1.1.11], they have no other business than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. They perform kīrtana to take something from Kṛṣṇa. Everyone goes to some dharma*-saṁsthāna just to take something. But our proposition is to give everything for Kṛṣṇa and that is far different. Haṁsadūta: Everyone is pleased with the devotees, everybody. Guest (2) (Indian man): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That when you do, I shall tell you. Now why do you waste your time in that way? That's all right, you are not doing so you have no business. Guest (2): (indistinct) Of course, I am not doing... (indistinct, several people talking at once.) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This is called vṛddha. This is called yoni. This is madhyama. This is anāvṛtta, and this is kaniṣṭha. (indistinct conversation) Stores are now closed? Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So he has gone to Calcutta. [break] Utsāhan, dhairyāt. Are you realizing the distinction between this association and others? Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty*-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you know that? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. Oh, it will not stay. Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall. Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay. Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the... Haṁsadūta: GBC? Prabhupāda: GBC. Haṁsadūta: (unintelligible) So many newspapers have come out within the last three or four years. Of course, most of them are hippie groups, but they have become... People are very anxious to read something from different angle of vision. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: They are tired of old newspapers. So if we present a newspaper with our angle of vision, Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: So immediately you write to the GBC members. Haṁsadūta: But the articles that will be in the newspaper, they will be exactly like other newspapers? Who will write them? Prabhupāda: No, articles... Daily newspaper means there must be news. News you can purchase from the news collecting company. They will supply it. At very cheap price they'll supply. And you take advertisement. Yes. You'll cover your expenses by getting advertisements and make sufficient profit. Newspaper starting is not a losing business provided you can organize. Just like ordinary newspaper, they give... In daily news... People want to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity. And those who are advertiser, they are simply concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue 100,000's of copies, then you can charge for each page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand dollars they will pay. Haṁsadūta: That means in each city we would we have to have our own local press. Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. You can arrange with any newspaper place. You simply supply your matter; they will print. Just like we are getting from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and supply them. Immediately, within two hours, everything is complete. Haṁsadūta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to another city. Prabhupāda: Well, from every city we can publish. Every city there is a newspaper place. Devotee (4): ...national, just like the national... Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big: Calcutta, and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta... Delhi is given importance due to capital; *otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President, it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay, is really important city in India, big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything*-Calcutta, and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But these Calcutta men, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Bannerjee made, Surendranath Bannerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Collier, he wanted to divide Bengal, made it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee... He is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called "Surrender-not." The spelling of the name, s-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy's house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase. Haṁsadūta: The government house? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. It is better than Buckingham Palace, such a big house. Haṁsadūta: Oh, the governor's house. The governor's house? Prabhupāda: Yes, governor's house. Haṁsadūta: It's surrounded just like a... Prabhupāda: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy's house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord Collier's policy was to bring one of the princes from England and make him king of India. Haṁsadūta: King of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Collier was very nice. Haṁsadūta: That never happened. *Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members... Just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so*-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy... I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" You cannot change his habits. Sva... Yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ. Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and bite the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be... Haṁsadūta: Canakya Pandit... I have see that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow... The crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man. "How great I am, a very beautiful bird." Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democrat party in America is the ass. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you... Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses. Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant and the Democratic party is ass, a donkey. Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote by asses? According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned brāhmaṇas and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; *whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his son was on the... Just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned but from his family, either his son or brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned brāhmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy... That Lord Collier studied that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so*-called states... Now the Congress government has killed them; *otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur(?) You saw? Yes. If you have saw... How nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko's house, a third*-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. And how third-class, low-grade. It is the sitting room and a naked picture has... How much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no (indistinct) education they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ. You know that story? "Again become mouse." Haṁsadūta: Oh yeah, I've heard that. *Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person: "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me?" "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of the... And when he became a tiger, he was... (snarling sound*-laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." You see? So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of the cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take-these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa-then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating, talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14], stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. [break] It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh? Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston. Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston. Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages. Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the... Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead. A lot of your articles were commenting about current events. Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Giriraja, you can do that? Giriraja: I could try. *Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you... Every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then you start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; *our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri..., come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brāhma-muhūrta, this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment. Haṁsadūta: I can tell everyone that wants a program to come at five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: If somebody wants a program, I can say "Come and see me at five o'clock." Because after they hear you and they have maṅgala-ārati, then they will be more thoughtful about our... Prabhupāda: Yes, tell them. Haṁsadūta: I think that's a good idea. Prabhupāda: You can say now, "If anyone wants to see us, please come at five o'clock, early in the morning." Then I shall see how much serious he is. Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudāsa suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi. Yamunā: It might be difficult to make arrangements, Guru Mahārāja. The place where Gurudāsa is presently staying is not equipped for ten people at present. We'll have to arrange. Prabhupāda: No, we can arrange in the Birla's house. He has a nice dharmaśāla. You know Birla's house? Yamunā: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten days. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So, who invited? Devotee (3): One of the people connected with the temple has associated with us in Delhi and (indistinct) has invited us. Prabhupāda: So first of all take information from the Pujari(?) in which train they have booked our seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamal Kṛṣṇa also, that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi Birla's dharmaśāla to accommodate us immediately. So their dharmaśāla. It is Birla's dharmaśāla. First of all we have to see how they have made our seats. Revatīnandana: So the residential place belongs to Mrs. Birla? Prabhupāda: No, it is a temple, very big temple. Haṁsadūta: So we should book seats for Delhi on which day? Prabhupāda: Seventeenth. Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth you want to leave? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth? Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth. Prabhupāda: No, day? Haṁsadūta: Today is Monday. Prabhupāda: Then? Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth is Thursday. Prabhupāda: Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday, seventeenth. Prabhupāda: So Thursday, before afternoon, we shall start. Devotee (3): You want to go by plane Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I am asking one ticket for plane. Devotee (3): You'll fly alone to Delhi? Yamunā: The Delhi airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask Gurudāsa to take me. For two hours I can sit down. It goes direct to Delhi from here. Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Devotee (3): But the same plane. Prabhupāda: Same plane. And you come, all, by train. Haṁsadūta: Will we open a bank account here? Will we open an account in Indore? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: This morning with Mr. Holi. Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudāsa, we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be arriving? Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa...? What is that Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday Prabhupāda: Oh, industrial house. Industrial house. Guest (2): It's called "Industry House." Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House Dhruva's full name, you know? Devotee (3): R.C. Prabhupāda: R.C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R.D. Birla, Industry House, Church Reclamation... Haṁsadūta: Bombay, West. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again. Giriraja: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Parliament is in session now? Yamunā: No. Out of session now. When it's in session then all of the politicians come from their castles and (indistinct) their most of the members of Parliament (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So when the Parliament begins? Yamunā: It will be (indistinct) It separates for about a month and then comes together. Prabhupāda: Aiye. Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this is the best time because he is not so preoccupied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that picture? There was picture you prepared. Devotee (3): (indistinct) picture with a letter (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. So... So how long you talked with the Prime Minister? Yamunā: Maybe ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So she took some interest? *Yamunā: She took a courteous interest. As I say, there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him she was pressed with other matters. A very personal friend of hers that Gurudāsa is now staying with told us that she was very impressed, her personal secretary was very impressed, and that she said-we have it on tape*-that she would like to see us again and she was sorry that she didn't realize that we had been waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have come earlier, she would have (indistinct) In that way (indistinct) some time in the future. Devotee (4): In (indistinct) we saw some yogi. *Prabhupāda: Pressing nose. Nose*-pressing philosophy. *Devotee (5): Haṭha*-yoga also. Yamunā: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So what was his philosophy? *Yamunā: You do some exercises and know God, be self*-realized. *Prabhupāda: You should have said to him, "Are you self*-realized?" Yamunā: I'm such a rascal, I didn't even try. Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God... Devotee (5): (indistinct) exercise and breathing (indistinct) some type of meditation performed. Yamunā: He's social swami, a very social swami. He's very polished in a material way. Devotees (5): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And smoking also? Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices. Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown swamis." Yamunā: His example of spiritual life is based on material prosperity. Prabhupāda: So why they should go to the yoga system? The science is more advanced. Before flying in the sky by a yogi he has to press his nose for so many years and the science has given us the airplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose? Yamunā: You explain that in *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use, wasting time? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) about when you walk on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing (indistinct) two cent yogi because for two cents he could have taken (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all. If that is the ultimate end of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so science has given them all opportunity. And the material science is so advanced, that all this yoga system is now almost accomplished because that is material only, material prosperity. Aiye. Yamunā: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and get fat. Flesh*-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-eaters. Māṁsa. The skin becomes increased for flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia? Russian beauty-big belly, fat. That... Yamunā: Germans are like that too. Germans. *Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fat. Also too much ghee also. That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just the Marwaris... (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is... In Āyur*-Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya-guṇa. There is a book, Dravya-guṇa. So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh-birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, "You Are What You Eat." Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian. Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health. Prabhupāda: Liver? Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health. Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations. Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything. Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended. Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take? Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can. Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw... Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is clear that without liver extract you shall die, you can take. Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of death it is recommended you may take anything to save your life. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even. Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant? Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara, immortal." That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today, or tomorrow, or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living. Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I just have one question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was calling the name of his youngest son. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: He was thinking but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him. Isn't that true? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling and Nārāyaṇa had to save him... Prabhupāda: But simply calling, "Nārāyaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes. Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural. Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is the remark of Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of Ṭhākura Haridāsa and the harlot. She began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good and simply by that association she began to chant or by previous association... Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. For three days, three days she associated. Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association; therefore she began to chant. Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason. Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. That is not. Himāvatī: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that.(?) Direct association with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Why previously? Himāvatī: We want to say that previously she had done some chanting. Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders. Himāvatī: You heard about that article? Prabhupāda: No. Himāvatī: That was the (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given it is not against the śāstra, but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect? *Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, and there are so many others. They are also reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must be fertile or receptive, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal. Revatīnandana: If the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed sprouts, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked. Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive again. Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to... That brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; *he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava*-bhakti. Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take (devotees offer obeisances) Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahmajyoti, that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky (indistinct) there's no shelter there so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body, but spirit, being restless can remain anywhere... Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge, and blissful life. So there is no bliss. Devotee (6): Yes. Just as we require shelter because we have the body... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, this living entity also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this association of Kṛṣṇa. So unless he gets that, he wants blissfulness, but*-there is some spiritual blissfulness; *he has no information*-he comes down again to this perverted blissfulness of this material world. Devotee (6): They don't take their pleasure in being there in the brahmajyoti? *Prabhupāda: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is not there, brahmajyoti is simply eternity, that's all. The same example can be given. Just like sunlight. There is only light. But on a planet the effect of the light is there*-there are so many trees, so many flowers, fruits. We, we want varieties of pleasure. Variety is the mother of... devotees: "Variety is the spice of life." Prabhupāda: Huh? Himāvatī: Spice of life. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living entities, life. We want variety. So this is the varietyless, no variety, one kind, sunlight. We require sunlight. We are so much anxious for sunlight. Not only sunlight. Revatīnandana: It must get very boring. It is very boring in the brahmajyoti? You get very bored? There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go? Prabhupāda: Bore? Haṁsadūta: Boring, dull. Prabhupāda: Yes. Himāvatī: But at first they are satisfied, aren't they, that they've achieved their goal? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They do not know. They are after brahmaṇanda, transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not that know, how real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect. Revatīnandana: When they want to come back, is it very easy for them to come back or have they got to...? Prabhupāda: No, they automatically come back because he is hankering after varieties. So that variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the material world. Just like so many sannyāsīs. Take Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedānta, which is liberation. He came again back to the hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedānta. Of course, he was not very much advanced. There are many. There is a... Sannyāsī is here. he's a Kārpātrī(?). He is very learned and other... He was formerly speaking on Vedānta and other... Now he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There are many. Revatīnandana: I have a hazy memory that one time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does enter into brahmajyoti, that he has to remain there for some long duration of time, a daytime of Brahmā or a lifetime of Brahmā. Is that correct? What is that duration? Prabhupāda: Not that. That is not like that. Revatīnandana: Not like that. Thank you. *Prabhupāda: But he feels inconvenience without varieties of life. The Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta*-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ: "Their intelligence is not clean." Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ: [SB 10.2.32] "Although they rise up to the brahmajyoti," patanty adho tataḥ, "they again come back." Haṁsadūta: And the nirvāṇa conception of life is just before Brahman? Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa conception is marginal position between brahmajyoti and this material world. Haṁsadūta: Just on the brink. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāraṇārṇava. Kāraṇārṇava. The Kāraṇa Ocean wherefrom the beginning of creation, material creation, that is nirvāṇa. Devotee (4): Virajā. Prabhupāda: Virajā, yes. Revatīnandana: Is it possible to go there? Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. Devotee (4): Arjuna went there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: What was Arjuna's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa took him to show His friend. He did not go alone. That he could not. No. (laughter) It was Kṛṣṇa's chariot. Revatīnandana: So he went to the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the use of making friendship with Kṛṣṇa if you cannot do so? There was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sill. He was so rich that... Every man has different circle in younger days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase house. He said that, "If people say, 'Oh, you are friend of Motilal Sill. You have no your own house?' what people will say about me? He must have his own house." He purchased house for him. He was very big man. And there are many incidences also like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago, say about hundred years ago. He would not see that any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a house in Calcutta. Another Kṛṣṇa's friend, Sudama also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own place, how it had happened, palatial buildings, garden. In Kṛṣṇa, you have not read Sudama? Give me water. Yamunā: (indistinct) mentions in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* that a devotee in attachment selects one of the Vṛndāvana..., the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. Does that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an eternal representative of Vṛndāvana? (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Let me... Yamunā: It says, "All inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. A devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful." Prabhupāda: Devotee... Devoted to the Vṛndāvana inhabitants. You don't directly think of yourself that "I shall see Kṛṣṇa as my son." Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have to follow the footsteps of Yasoda Ma. Yamunā: Yes. You've told me that before. Prabhupāda: Then it will be success. Revatīnandana: But you've said that you are always in Vṛndāvana, so we are following a Vṛndāvana inhabitant. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Yamunā: It says, "One should always remember the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja." Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kapoor(?) daughter? Devotee (4): Yes. Revatīnandana: Have we got an engagement this morning? Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: He asked if we have an engagement this morning. 8:30. Prabhupāda: Oh, Molpar(?), yes. They'll send car? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: How far it is? Haṁsadūta: It's supposed to be just in the neighborhood. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all. He was formerly prince. Revatīnandana: Of this area? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He had given (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the sign of princely opulence. Revatīnandana: He's the son of the man we saw last week? This Mahārāja? It's not his son? Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also old man. Haṁsadūta: I won't be going to that place because I'll be waiting for Mr. Homing. Prabhupāda: Homing is coming? Haṁsadūta: Yes. (indistinct) we'll open a bank account. Prabhupāda: That's it. *Haṁsadūta: We'll open a one*-sided account. Prabhupāda: Book fund account and one, International Society, checking account. (devotees offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that connection? Devotee (4): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The water? [break] Where is your son? (Hindi) This is material conception. (Hindi) (end) Room Conversation -- December 15, 1970, Surat Prabhupāda: You understand what is the meaning of Bhāgavata, this word, Bhāgavata? You understand? These are the common questions. If you do not understand this common question then how you can instruct others? Guest (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right but do not take the position of a teacher unless you have assimilated the whole thing. Simply by hearing others you may misunderstand, you may not present the real thing. Therefore I'm asking you... Guest (1): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (indistinct) but you must know. Another thing is that you must know Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam from a bhāgavata, whose life is bhāgavata. First of all you must know what is bhāgavata. What is bhāgavata? Can you give me idea what you have understood? Instead of going through the instruction, first of all let me understand what do you understand about this (indistinct) Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That is essential. So you cannot explain what is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You have read Bhāgavatam from the beginning? Dharma projjhita kaitavo atra. You have read? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? You have not read even the first verse and you are going to give instruction on *Bhāgavatam*? Your life should be bhāgavata. You should understand what is bhāgavata. Simply by (indistinct) words from others how can you accept? Guest (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? So I bless(?) you that you try to understand. Then you write. That is my request. (end) Room Conversation -- December 17, 1970, Surat Prabhupāda: That is the same... Guest (1) (Indian man): Māyāvādīs may die like that, imagining... (Hindi) Ara saba bhṛtya. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are after, inquiring after Brahmān, but nobody could give them. So they have got it. Now they are taking it. This is stage. (Hindi) That is the stage, sannyāsa stage. So these hippies, they are also giving up all work, that is sannyāsa, but there is no guide. There is no guide. And because they have no guide, therefore their intelligence is not being purified. Simply there is a propensity for renunciation, tyāga. But tyāga...(Hindi) After renunciation, what is the next stage, they do not know. That we are giving: "Yes, come here. Stand here." (laughs) Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Exactly. Prabhupāda: They are very successful. They are standing: "We don't want this." But they must stand. So they could not give the standing. But here is... Oh, here is standing. Therefore this movement is successful. They want some standing. And where is the standing? (Hindi) So unless you get a solid ground you cannot stand. You'll fall down. Guest (2) (Indian man): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Kirāṭa*-huṇāndhra-pulin... Huh? (Hindi) [break] ...obeisance to guru. Then his guru, then his guru, up to Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) ...paramparā system. You cannot directly approach God. That is useless. You have no power to approach God directly. That is not possible. Guru kṛṣṇa kṛpayā [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. (Hindi) Let them study this philosophy. We have got books, enough books. One cannot read all these books even throughout whole life. [break] Guest (2): I am going to... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You do actually work. Guest (2): So I can also accompany certain places like... Prabhupāda: You arrange. We can go there with all party. Now here in this part... You can get. This... Immediately we can go. From India... Guest (2): From India, yes. Prabhupāda: We can go to Indonesia. Guest (2): At the end of March we can go there. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You also come. Arrange like that. After finishing our program in Simla, let us go to Indonesia. You do it. Guest (2): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is a fact. At least at the present moment nobody can give better thing than what I am giving to the world. (Hindi) Guest (2): There are many things you can give us. I'll arrange the tour. Prabhupāda: You are present, a tourist program here? Guest (2): I was there. I... Prabhupāda: So this program... Guest (2): I wanted to join with the camp in the public but nobody was convenienced... Prabhupāda: No, you could have informed him. You could come to the pal... Anyway, next, next, tomorrow also we'll have. Guest (2): I no way want to disturb... Hamsadutta: No, you won't disturb. You'll enhance us. Guest (2): Tomorrow I'll come. *Prabhupāda: Where you are staying here? [break] ...actually inquisitive, he'll capture it. It is not the question of... Japan. [break] ...personal ambition. It is service to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. So we are canvassing. Guest (2): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That word, that brahma*-jijñāsā, that is the position of the whole world. Yes, that is the position. They have enough seen about this material nonsense. Now that is the position. They want to know what is this Brahman. *Guest (2): It is called Treta*-yuga. *Prabhupāda: No, this is not this yuga. This is called Kali*-yuga. But... Then it will come, Satya-yuga. And that is long, long after, 400,000's of years after. (laughs) Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat Prabhupāda: So your father has got personality. And why the ultimate Godhead is not a person? What is this philosophy? If God is father, He must be person. How you can prove God imperson? Eh? Haṁsadūta: Ah... Prabhupāda: He is puzzled. Devotee (1): I am puzzled. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Just try to understand this philosophy. If when I see practically my father has got head, his father has got head, his father has got head, head, head, head... Go on. And the ultimate father, why he has no head? What this poor person, gentleman, has done that he has no head? (laughter) This is... This nonsense theory is going on, that "God has no head. God has no legs. God has no hand." Imperson means He has no head, no leg, no... That means... And somebody says, "He is dead," and "void." Revatinandana: They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That's all. That is their business. Rākṣasa, asura, miscreants, rogues, fools, rascals*-that is their business. Envious. Because they are... If I say that "You have no eyes," that means indirectly I say that "You are blind." If I say that "You have no leg," indirectly I say, "You are lame." In this way, when I deny your senses, that means I am calling God by ill names that "You are blind. You are lame. You are headless. You are rascal," like that. And that is their prayer. Calling God by ill names, that is their prayer. What do you think, Girirāja? Girirāja: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say, "O my Lord, You have no leg, You have no hand, You have no eyes," that means, "You are blind, You are lame, You are headless," (laughter) "You have no sense"-"You are nonsense." So this is prayer. This is their prayer. So we have to fight vigorously with these rascal impersonalists and voidists. When I was talking, somebody left the meeting in the morning. Yes. That means he could not tolerate (laughs) all these designations*-rascal, miscreants, lowest of the mankind. Yes. Devotee (2): In this mantra of Śrī Upaniṣad, Mantra Twelve, Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Then why is it seen that they are making spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: No, they don't make any spiritual advancement. They come down. Don't you see this impersonalist, Vivekananda? He took sannyāsa; *he came to hospital*-making, came back. They are not advancing. They are coming back, falling down. While they have no engagement in devotional service, they say, "Oh, why you are finding God anywhere? Here is God, daridra-nārāyaṇa, these poor men." That's it. That is not advancement. They are coming down. Now, they come down and they defame Nārāyaṇa, that "Nārāyaṇa has become daridra." He has found Nārāyaṇa is daridra. Revatinandana: What is that word? *Prabhupāda: Daridra. Daridra means poor, poor. Daridra*-nārāyaṇa. This is manufactured word by Vivekananda. They are so proud that "When a beggar comes at your door, you should treat him as Nārāyaṇa, daridra." These are simply high-sounding words. What they are doing actually for the daridras? Revatinandana: So that is service in the mode of ignorance. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatinandana: That is service in the mode of ignorance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They cannot serve. All these welfare activities of the world, what they are serving? That I explained this morning. They are trying to give help to the poor, but the number of poor is increasing. They are trying to give medicine or relief to the suffering patients. The patients are increasing. Hospitals are increasing. But if our number of temples, Kṛṣṇa temples is increase, that is something sound. But they are increasing hospitals. What do you think? If we increase number of hospitals, does it mean that we are making progress? But they think that they are making progress. Just like in your country there is welfare department? The expenditure increasing. Revatinandana: Yes, (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That means the social structure is very bad. Otherwise, natural procedure is that everyone should be self*-independent. But why state has to give them help? That's not good. You may be... Just like a son may be very rich man's son, but if the father provides him only, then he's a useless son. Is it not? If the father has to provide him money for his maintenance, then that son is useless son. That is not a good certificate. Although you may be very much proud that "I am maintaining my so many sons," why you should maintain? Let them be self-supported. Yadubara: But what can the state do? Should the state just leave the people alone? *Prabhupāda: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self*-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization. Yadubara: But America is so far from that. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate: [Bg. 6.20-23] "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position, he is not agitated, he is not agitated, that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated." There is one instance. Not very long ago, say, about two hundred years ago there was a big zamindar. He was known as king in Krishnanagar. So he was charitably disposed. He went to a brāhmaṇa and asked him*-he was a great learned scholar-"Can I help you any way?" And the pandit replied, "No. I don't require your help. I am quite satisfied." "How you are satisfied?" "Oh, my, these students, they bring some rice. So my wife boils that, and I have got this tamarind tree. I take some leaves and prepare some juice out of it. That is sufficient." So he was satisfied. That's all. But he was a learned scholar. Similarly, Canakya Pandit... You have perhaps heard. He was the greatest politician. He was prime minister of India. He was living in a cottage and just giving instruction. So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient. And now in your country, oh, you have to attend office fifty miles off. And because you have to take this trouble, Kṛṣṇa has provided with car. You are thinking, "I am advanced." You don't think that "Although I have got car, I have to go fifty miles off from my home." This is illusion. You are thinking, "I am advanced. I am happy. I have got this car." This is illusion. Yes. Gaurasundara was going to maintain, and he drives fifty miles off, Honolulu. The poor fellow had to rise early in the morning. You see? And so much haste.(?) Therefore: "Gaurasundara, you better give up this job. Just depend on Kṛṣṇa." So he has given up. What is this? Fifty miles going by motorcycle or motor car, how much tedious it is. But still, they are satisfied that "We are advanced." And because they have many cars, therefore in your country always there is that (makes traffic noise), "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," wherever I go. Revatinandana: And more problems come after that. *Prabhupāda: Simply, wherever you go, (makes traffic noise) "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," and "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh." Up in the sky, "gonh, gonh, gonh, gonh," and in the street, "sonh, sonh..." And then, when digging, "gut*-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut-gut!" (laughter) Is it not? Don't you feel botheration. But they are thinking, "Oh, America is very much advanced in machine." And when there is that garbage tank? "Ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon-ghon!" (laughter) So many sounds are going on, always. Eh? Of course, you have got very nice city, nice roads everywhere. But this trouble... You have created so many troubles. And there are news that one lady was a patient. She became mad for the sounds. And I think they are thinking very seriously how to stop all these sounds. Is it not? Śyāmasundara: Especially they have these airplanes now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: They make such a tremendous sound that they break windows and everything else. *Prabhupāda: Now we are with Sambhu in Bombay. As soon as the aeroplane would come on top of the house it is just like thunderbolt. Yes. At least I was feeling like that. Vajrapa. You see? So this is called illusion. We are creating a civilization which is so much painful, but we are thinking that we are advanced. This is illusion. We are creating simply problems, and still, we are thinking that we are advanced. And Bhāgavata says that there is no problem. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then how I shall live? That, the answer, is tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like you don't aspire for miseries, but it comes upon you, it is forced upon you, similarly, happiness also will be forced upon you, whatever you are destined to receive. So don't try for happiness or discarding distress. That will go on. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which, without your trying, it will never be fulfilled. You have to voluntarily try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, revive it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You do it-because you have to do it. Kṛṣṇa can force you to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But He doesn't do that. He doesn't interfere with your independence. He says, "Do it." Therefore you have to try for it, not for other things. Other things, already there are. For the birds and beasts there is no problem for eating. Why your problem should be? Just like a prisoner. He has no problem for eating. The government supplies. He has only problem that he should not be criminal. That is his problem. He should try for that: "No more I shall become a criminal." That is the real activity. But he thinks... If in the prisonhouse you say, "What shall I eat?" no, eating is already there. Even you are a prisoner, the government has supplied his eating. Similarly, God has supplied everyone, cats and dogs, for eating. Why not for you? You have created your own problem. Real problem is how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that. Yadubara: These problems will take care of themselves if people develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Then there is no need to deal with the problem then. Prabhupāda: There is no problem. At least we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we have no problem for eating. Is it? Is there any problem? Haṁsadūta: There's problem. Eating too much! Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is practical. If you have any problem, you join us. You will have no problem for eating. That I can guarantee you. Wherever you go, you shall eat sumptuously. Yes. Devotee (3): Is it all right to finish rounds(?) in the temple when there's nothing to do? Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (3): This afternoon. Prabhupāda: Not afternoon. You have to do it in the morning when there is nothing. Guest (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (4): He danced on saṅkīrtana today. Prabhupāda: Perhaps in other engagement he cannot dance. Actually there is no problem. Why there should be problem? There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, human being are 400... Out of that, 80%, they are uncivilized. So all these living entities have no problem for eating. This 20% or 15% people who are called as civilized, they have problem. They have created problem. At least in India, say, hundred years before, there was no problem for eating, even for the śūdra class or any... No, there was no... The society was so made, there was no problem. Why fifty years? In 1933 or '36 in Vṛndāvana somebody wanted milk, some pilgrimage amongst ourselves. So went to a house. So, "Can you supply us some milk?" "Ah, how much you want?" So it was about ten pounds. So she supplied immediately, one woman, and when she was offered price, "Oh, why shall I take a price for ten or twenty pounds of milk? Oh, you can take it." That is my practical experience. Milk was so freely available. So simply we are creating problems by godless civilization. That is a fact. *Haṁsadūta: Once you said we are making solutions to self*-created problems, and we think it's advancement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: We've created a big thing and then make so many solutions. *Prabhupāda: Just like we just take example from your country. You are constructing so many highways, freeways. Still, there is problem. Still, even in the highways, sometimes blocked. Aiye. (Hindi) Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido [SB 1.5.18]. (Hindi) We do not dissuade persons to stop work. No. That is not our... You do your work, but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's it. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. Kṛṣṇa never stopped him from his occupation, but he was taught Kṛṣṇa conscious even in the battlefield. (Hindi*-break) You want to see? Yes. Where is that book? *Haṁsadūta: Here, Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Kiñcid adhīta. [break] ...a thousand pages of this size. This is four hundred pages, but that *Gītā* will be thousand pages. But we shall use very thin paper. Yes. It is available after some time. Guest (2): Where? Prabhupāda: In our center in India. Guest (2): Is this same? Prabhupāda: No, it is *Nectar of Devotion*. Where are our other books? Haṁsadūta: In my suitcase. Shall I bring them? *Prabhupāda: Yes, bring. [break] Kṛṣṇa, canvassing Himself, says, Kṛṣṇa, Himself canvassing, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up everything. Just surrender unto Me." How many do it? So we are canvassing on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. He personally said practically. So you don't expect that everyone will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is very difficult. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prahupada: So why not give everyone. Haṁsadūta: Everyone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Do you practice meditation in your center? Haṁsadūta: Our meditation consists of chanting the holy name of God. Or, in fact, we are always absorbed in meditating because whatever we do, we do on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. So our mind, which is the center of our activities, is always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa. The principle of meditation is to fix up our mind on Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me. Become My devotee. Bow down to Me. Worship Me. Give your love to Me. In this way, you will come to Me." So if we want to go to Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: That is the highest, topmost type of yoga. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gata āntarātmanā, śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo mataḥ: [Bg. 6.47] "Anyone," Kṛṣṇa says, "who is thinking of Me always within his heart, with devotion and love, he is the topmost yogi." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as soon as you chant Kṛṣṇa and hear it, immediately you think of. And the chanting is not done by any ordinary man. Unless one has love and devotion for Kṛṣṇa, he cannot chant. You just study with this verse. Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam, āntarātmanā: "Within, he is topmost." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are training people to become the topmost yogis. Guest (3): Do they have to practice every day? Prabhupāda: The practice is very simple. Anyone, when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, even child joins. Even a small child, he also claps and joins. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstras, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. In this age nobody can meditate actually. It is very difficult. Maybe one or two persons can meditate, but that is not for all. But here Kṛṣṇa conscious, the chanting, is so nice, that even a child can take part. It doesn't require that he should be educated, he should be rich or he should be enlightened, no. As he is, simply if he takes part in this... Even woman. We were chanting. There was some roaring. As soon as we begin chanting, it stopped. This is authorized. This is recommended. And this is practically being... Now in European and American countries, four or five years back... Guest (3): Chanting is mental concentration, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting and hearing, locked up. Mind is locked up. And because the Kṛṣṇa vibration is locked up, then Kṛṣṇa is locked up, because there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, absolute. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. Therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and His name, His form, His pastimes. Guest (3): What is the trance that... The meditation, trance enters. It is called... Prabhupāda: Trance is... The actual meditation means concentrate one's mind on Viṣṇu form. That is real meditation. But now they have, the impersonalists and voidists, they have manufactured so many things, but actual meditation means... Guest (3): Transcendental meditation. Trans...? Prabhupāda: Transcendental meditation. The transcendental meditation means to think of Lord Viṣṇu. Guest (3): These books will be available where? Prabhupāda: These books are... Now we have some custom difficulty. Books are lying in the port, but we have some custom clearance permission difficulty. Just this morning we have received news from Delhi. Now everything is complete. So now we shall get the books, say, within a fortnight. Guest (3): Within a fortnight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): In Surat, unable to permanently enter in Surat? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you give us some place, we'll immediately open. Just like in Indore we had been. Somebody has given us a land. Not only land, but they are going to prepare a temple also there. And the residential quarters, we shall arrange to construct. So this land is about 400,000 square feet. Guest (3): In Surat? Prabhupāda: No, in Indore. Yes. So if we get place, we can start. Our program is international. And it is not difficult for us. We can start a branch even underneath a tree. We begin... I began in New York like that. I was chanting underneath a tree in a park. Yes. Guest (4): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. To the members, not to the public. It is very difficult for import*-export, and sales tax, this, that, so many botherations government has created. Therefore our proposal is that... Thank you. We don't sell. No. Simply who becomes a member, we give him. You give us something, and whatever we have got, we give you. Business finished. Not finished, but business established. (laughs) Then if you read our books, if you inquire, then we get opportunity to explain. And our distribution of books means that is indirectly propagating our mission. Yes. So therefore we have adopted this way, that only to the members. That's all. We have printed that "These books are not for sale in India." Yes. Because the government machine is so implicated-sale tax, this tax, that tax... Guest (3): I want to put in India also.(?) They are for sale there.(?) Prabhupāda: Because there we have no difficulty. Haṁsadūta: There's difficulty with the authorities. Guest (3): Not in India. You can sell to Indians. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We are selling. Haṁsadūta: America, Japan. Guest (3): You can sell, but not in India. Prabhupāda: No, India, we can sell, but as soon as we sell, oh, there are so many impediments, this tax... We cannot trust.(?) That is next. When we see that we have got enough members, so this money which you pay for our membership, this will be utilized for starting press and reprinting books. Yes. But another difficulty is this class of high class printing you cannot have in India. No. You have seen our *Kṛṣṇa Book* and *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? Any books. Eh? Guest (3): In Bombay you can get. Prabhupāda: No. We took quotation from Times of India press about our, this Back to Godhead magazine. They quoted, "Two rupees, twelve annas," cost price. Now at what price we shall sell? Guest (3): This will be very costly. Prabhupāda: Very costly here. And even if we pay, this nature, this type of book, is very difficult to be printed in India, such nice paper, printing. Haṁsadūta: Even on U.S. standards, these books, although they retail for eight dollars each, they are worth at least twenty dollars. If you purchase a book of this quality... Generally art books come like this, with many color illustrations, and they charge twenty dollars. Prabhupāda: Here you have seen that letter? Five? Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it all right? Guest (4): Yes. Guest (5): I think it never comes here. Prabhupāda: Naturally, he wrote that, said, "I gave it to such and such." It will go like that. Yes? Why Overseas(?) should keep so much account? You do not know, whatever you take, and that is returned or not. No, whatever you take, you should see that it is returned. Now you are asking how much. What is that? You take and you ask him. Where is that small... What is called? Victoria?(?) You brought it back? You took from there but got it back? You got it back? You took from there one shirt, one dhotī, one victo...(?) Devotee (5): Yesterday I did. Prabhupāda: You got it? Devotee (5): No, I couldn't find it. Prabhupāda: You have to find there? After reminding me? After reminding you? Why do you not...? Whatever you give, you must see that it is returned. When I inquire where it is now, you say, "I shall see." There are so many clothings. How they can keep the account? You should know how much you have delivered and how much you have taken back. Who took? Find out. How it is struggle. Then? Let us prepare. Devotee (5): Kṛṣṇa's in control. Here are some letters. [break] Prabhupāda: ...I dictated yesterday. It is not yet sent out. (end) Room Conversation -- January 6, 1971, Calcutta Prabhupāda: Mosquito? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughter) Many, many? Without mosquito curtain you cannot sleep. Devotee (1): No, we can sleep. At Advaita Bhavan there's a fair amount of mosquitos at night, but there's not so many that you can't sleep without a mosquito coil burning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. [break] Devotee (2): The rats in Hawaii are not so big as the rats here. They're only about this big, the body. Prabhupāda: Every house there is rats? Devotee (2): Not every house, no. Prabhupāda: At least Advaita Bhavan has got. Devotee (2): They were some but they cleaned them out. They got rid of them. I'm not sure rats actually are poisoned. Devotee (3): (unintelligible) Devotee (2): We were getting a cow but we joined ISKCON just before we got the cow. We were going to get one for four hundred dollars. It was giving sixteen quarts a day and had a calf. Prabhupāda: Sixteen quarts? Devotee (2): A day, yes. There was a small calf also. Prabhupāda: There must be grazing ground for cows. Then there is no problem. Devotee (2): There was a grazing ground. The lawn must grow. Prabhupāda: What is that? Are they cutting? These are not important thing. (end) Room Conversation -- January 17, 1971, Allahabad Prabhupāda: Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, among the educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and... That is one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class. Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating. "Eat any... All Brahman, all Nārāyaṇa. You are Nārāyaṇa. Goat is Nārāyaṇa. So Nārāyaṇa is going in the belly of Nārāyaṇa. What is the wrong? One Nārāyaṇa is going, being absorbed by another Nārāyaṇa." But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger Nārāyaṇa. Haṁsadūta: They actually say that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: "One Nārāyaṇa is being absorbed by another." Prabhupāda: One respectable pleader in Allahabad, I said, "Why you are eating this?" We also find that he's a very religious man. So I inquired. He was just like our father; still, I inquired. He said, "No, what is the wrong there? Nārāyaṇa, Brahman. So one Brahman is going into the belly of another Brahman, Brahman being absorbed, brahmeti." So they have got so dangerous theory. But still, we shall not hesitate to kick on their face but because they are making a propaganda, it should be peaceful. But I become very much agitated with this nonsense because I know they are creating havoc. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on. (door closes) So many rascals. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Haṁsadūta: So yesterday we went to that place, that swami with the silver glasses and black beard that always gives his respect to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Well, he has become head swami of this temple, very big, very nice place. Prabhupāda: Very nice place? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Hodgepodge but very... Prabhupāda: They have. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Yes. A big marble statue of Buddha, very costly, and tiles from Japan. Prabhupāda: Tiles? Devotee (1): This temple is made by one American. Haṁsadūta: By an American? Devotee (1): I was told it was built by one American. I don't know who. Prabhupāda: So why not give us that place? Haṁsadūta: I don't think he's prepared to do that. Prabhupāda: They have residential quarters? They have made some residential quarter? Haṁsadūta: I didn't see any residential quarter. Mostly temple. Prabhupāda: Very big temple? Haṁsadūta: It's one big temple with different rooms. Very large, very nice. Prabhupāda: Better than this *Gītā* Bhavan? Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think it's better than *Gītā* Bhavan. Prabhupāda: It was simply attempted, not finished. Haṁsadūta: Not finished. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Oh, thank you. Why not spread those blankets? Then you can... They are being used? Haṁsadūta: There is a blanket in your room. Prabhupāda: Blanket or mattress. Haṁsadūta: They have blankets in their rooms. They left them in their rooms. Prabhupāda: Bring mattress and spread. (Hindi) Sit down. This is comfortable. Guest (1): In God's temple, what human wants? And what type of life he wants so that he can be happy? Prabhupāda: Not upon that. You spread separately. You have no bed sheet? Bed sheet you can spread. The human demand is happiness. Guest (1): Happiness, yes. But happiness means increase in which is already happy. It is... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, the thing is, what is that happiness? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya-grāhyam: [Bg. 6.21] "The absolute happiness or the perpetual happiness or the greatest happiness is that which is enjoyed by supernatural senses." *Guest (1): Would that be by all the senses*-mind, intelligence...? Prabhupāda: Yes, everything but in their supernatural, not in this condition. Guest (1): Not in this? Prabhupāda: Condition. Guest (1): You see, otherwise it is said that when a person is happy with the self, happy with others... Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Try to understand. He has got his senses. These senses are now covered with the coating of material conception of life. Therefore this sense pleasure is not complete or perfect. Just like everyone has got... Now, you have got your tongue. Now, the tongue, when it is coated you cannot taste the things. So the coating is māyā. Guest (1): What I was, missing me was in this degree, that just like here, people, why we are, we got the news in our senses, our mind sees or perceives... Prabhupāda: These are living, symptoms of living condition. Guest (1): Living condition. So, but we are not affected by air, which is most required and most special for our use. Because it is abundant, and it will be given to every person at all the times, in all circumstances, therefore we do not keep it under lock and key. Western countries, though they have... *Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of Western*-Eastern. Guest (1): No, I was speaking of materialism and spiritualism. I was talking on that point, that though we see, I mean, I don't say have made it, but yet because there is no what kind of life they want, or in our Eastern countries, because they are... *Prabhupāda: No, no. If you study the whole thing in that way*-Western-Eastern... There is no question of Western-Eastern. It is the question of the living entity. Guest (1): Yes, how to live in such a way where there is no dearth of thing as well as there is no continuing of that need that a man becomes lost? That is the... Prabhupāda: That is the point. Guest (1): That is the point. And for that, what kind of spiritual should we lead? *Prabhupāda: That is... That I am going to explain, that... That is one line: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya*-grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. This sukham ātyantikaṁ is being searched both by the Western, Eastern, everyone, even cats, dogs, everyone. But the cats and dogs, animals, they cannot adjust what is that ātyantikaṁ sukham. But human being can. So human being, there is no question of Eastern and Western. It is a question of degree only. But actually everyone is searching after that perpetual happiness. So it is a problem for everyone, and that problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): By? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the..., I mean to say, a rough scheme, rough estimation. Now, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve this problem, that is a detailed thing. But this is a fact. It is not the question of Eastern*-Western. It is the problem of all living entities. Guest (1): Yes, living entities. Human, actually we have. Prabhupāda: Not even human life, even animal life. There are 8,400,000s of different kinds of bodies. So this is a problem for everyone. Now in other species of life than the human form, they cannot solve. They have no power. But a human being can solve. Guest (1): Yes, they have got understanding. Prabhupāda: Yes. And that solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): What do you mean by that? Prabhupāda: That is a detailed question, "How it can be?" Guest (1): No, but are we satisfied with the past... Prabhupāda: You will be never satisfied without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): What I mean was it really or were we at that time...? Prabhupāda: Which time? What do you mean "that time"? Guest (1): That time means at the time of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Were we completely... Prabhupāda: At the time of Kṛṣṇa... You are taking simply the portion of the time when Kṛṣṇa was present. You are saying about that. But Kṛṣṇa is present always. Guest (1): Yes, but if you say that, in that way, then he gets because... *Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste in the water." Now, this taste in the water is perpetual. When Kṛṣṇa was physically present or Kṛṣṇa is not physically present, this is a perpetual fact. Is it not? Do you think the taste in the water was different when Kṛṣṇa was present and the taste of water is different now? Guest (1): No, it cannot be. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, He says, prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ: "I am the shining of the sun and the moon." In this way, if you study what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you'll find that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only solution for that highest perfectional stage of happiness. Guest (1): We are giving names; therefore we become confused because in our God incarnation... Prabhupāda: No, no. If there is name why you be confused? If your name is Mr. such and such but you do not know the name, that is the confusion. Guest (1): Because so many names have been given to these same things... Prabhupāda: But that is in the śāstra it is said, "There are so many names of God. Out of all of them, Kṛṣṇa is the principal." God's name is given... Just like Kṛṣṇa appeared as the son of Vasudeva; therefore He is called Vāsudeva. Kṛṣṇa played in Vṛndāvana as the son of Nanda Mahārāja and Yaśodā; *therefore He is called Yaśodā*-nandana. Kṛṣṇa acted as the driver, chariot driver Arjuna. Therefore He is known as Pārtha-sārathī. So His name... All these names are according to His different activities. So He has got unlimited activities, and therefore He has got unlimited names. So out of all these names, Kṛṣṇa is the supreme or the prime because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So God, if God is not all-attractive, He cannot be God. So one God is attractive for me, another God is attractive for... He is not supreme God. Guest (1): Reason we take the name of the God or anything is to achieve the supreme happiness or... *Prabhupāda: That supreme happiness is different thing. We are talking of God's name. First of all let us understand that God's name, we have different God's name according to God's activities. Madhusūdana. Because He killed the demon Madhu, therefore His name is Madhusūdana. Mādhava. Because He is the husband of goddess of fortune*-Ma means goddess of fortune-therefore He is Mādhava. All the names you analyze. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also the name of God because He is all-attractive. Now, how you can deny that God is not all-attractive? Is it possible? God is all-attractive. Can you deny this fact? *Guest (1): No, there is no denying, you see, because we only know that all*-attractiveness in Śyāmasundaram. *Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundaram... But the Śyāmasundaram means He is blackish, still, He is so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa*-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ [Bs. 5.30]. Kandarpa-koṭi. Cupid is supposed to be the most beautiful, but about Kṛṣṇa it is stated that: Guest (1): That is also charm in that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But still, He's still charming. Because it is all transcendental, we cannot compare the blackish cloud. It is simply given, an idea, that it is like blackish cloud. But immediately it is said, still, kandarpa*-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.30]. So God has many names, and according to your conception, you can have God's name also. But out of all those names, many thousands and unlimited different types of names, Kṛṣṇa is the principal name because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. You cannot say that God is not all-attractive. And if you use that sense, all-attractive, this is the word, Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): What I was... You see, I was trying to... Prabhupāda: Now, the difficulty is don't try to invent something about God. That is not good. Guest (1): No, not invention. Prabhupāda: No, you have to take the version of the śāstras; then it will be possible. If you invent something, try to speculate on something, it will not be successful. Guest (1): I'm not, you see... In the middle, I may be speculating or you see, trying to... Coming to the human aspect itself, now so many want happiness. Happiness is checked up because of... Prabhupāda: That material coating. Guest (1): Material things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Now, we want... Because this want is there... Want is made by own nature and there is no way throughout our... Now when we earning means there's so much contami..., mean, sea of... Prabhupāda: That is not happiness. Guest (1): I am just coming to that. I was... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, one point is that earning or begging-beg, borrow or steal*-that is not happiness. Because to acquire a standard of happiness you have to beg, you have to earn, or you have to steal, so that is not happiness. Guest (1): No. What I am saying is that as long as a man lives... Prabhupāda: But we are not talking of "as long as man lives." He lives eternally. Guest (1): Yes, it is eternal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): And it is eternal bondage there. Prabhupāda: No. Bondage for so long you are in this material bondage. Guest (1): In some form... Prabhupāda: No, first of all you have to understand in the spiritual... Guest (1): Yes, even there is spiritual form, one has to live in certain form, without which... Prabhupāda: That is natural form. That is not a conventional form. Just like you have dressed yourself with black coat. It is not your natural form. So material... Guest (1): Has spirit no want? Prabhupāda: Yes, no want. Guest (1): Without it, you see... Prabhupāda: Everything you desire, it is present immediately. Guest (1): You mean the spirit has got subtle form, though it may be exact form? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. Guest (1): Though mind has got no form outside but mind has a form. Prabhupāda: The spirit, he has a form. Guest (1): Intelligence is also accepting... Prabhupāda: These are different coating. Just like you have got your form, therefore your coat has got a form. Guest (1): No, I was thinking in this form. Prabhupāda: Don't think like that way. First of all you try to understand. Because you have got a form, your coat has got a form. You try to understand this. Guest (1): Yes, water, though may not have form, but it has got form. Prabhupāda: Why may not? You try to understand practically. You have got a form, therefore your shirt has got a form, your coat has got a form. Guest (1): That spirit has this form, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. So because originally you have got hand, your coat has got hand. Because originally you have got hand, your shirt has got hand. Therefore this form, the material form which you are seeing, it is coating only. Guest (1): Material form of what? Prabhupāda: You, me, everything. Guest (1): No, "me" means what? A spirit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): That is what I say. Any spirit will have certain form. Prabhupāda: Not certain form. He has got his original form. Guest (1): Original means all the... We are living from the eternal... Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternally you have got a form. Guest (1): From the eternal we have got certain form. Prabhupāda: That is material. Past certain form, that is material. But you have got an original spiritual form. Guest (1): Spiritual form is there but due to the bond man has taken this form. Prabhupāda: This form is being developed according to your mental condition. Guest (1): Mental conditions are due to want. Prabhupāda: Subtle form, subtle form. Guest (1): Those are again due to want. Prabhupāda: Due to want? Yes. Guest (1): All these forms are due to want. Prabhupāda: Want. That want because you are in the material condition. Guest (1): Every person in a material... Spirit in matter remains because both are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Guest (1): Now, as we have got a material form... Prabhupāda: Spirit has got no material form. Spirit has got spiritual form. Guest (1): Spiritual form but yet also it has got a material form. Prabhupāda: Because he has come... Just like you have accepted this kind of coat. I have got a different kind of coat. She has got a different kind of coat. Guest (1): Yes. According to that there is... Prabhupāda: Yes. So as I liked, so I have got shirt and coat. This is material. But originally, spiritual form is the same as you have got, I have got, she has got a form, everyone. That is original form. Guest (1): Now, our question... (indistinct) We try. Now, question of earning also, the definition is not here, being... Prabhupāda: The question of earning comes so long you have got this material form. But from the spiritual form there is no question of earning. Guest (1): In what way we will live in that spiritual form? *Prabhupāda: That you have to know. That you have to know. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That spiritual form means complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity. Guest (1): Turiya. Prabhupāda: Turiya, yes. Guest (1): In that turiya... Prabhupāda: This is turiya life, complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity. Guest (1): You see, because it is a creation of the world... (indistinct) And that means that matter is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Matter is always there. Guest (1): Ah. We want to live and enjoy, therefore this universe and all these things. Now, in what perfect form? Because everywhere, in everything, there is a best. Now how everything should take? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Guest (1): The universal form should come to the best. That is the point. Prabhupāda: Don't talk of universal form. First of all talk of your form. Try to understand your form. Then go universal. Guest (1): Am I separate from matter. Prabhupāda: You are not separate. Are you not separate? Then why you are talking with me? Are you not separate with me? Why you have come to inquire from me? Guest (1): No, no, because we... Prabhupāda: First of all try to... Are you not separate from me? Guest (1): In material way, yes. Prabhupāda: Any way. Any way, are you not separate from me? Guest (1): Yes, every drop is separate from one another. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Every individual person is separate from one another, every individual person. So how do you say they are one? Guest (1): Every individual is separate, but when we come in the prema... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Then every person, until it is the best... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...is just an object of...(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is possible. Even... Don't think that when that stage will come there will be no individuality. Guest (1): Individuality will be there. I do not say that it will not be there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): What I was saying was particular individual in a particular way. Therefore the shape of world is in today is off. But if every individual takes the destined way, which is good enough for every person, then all things can change at once. Prabhupāda: Now, why do you way that thinking will be stopped? Guest (1): I do not say, sir. I... Prabhupāda: So then you say who will think? Thinking will be there, individuality will be there, but there will be no disagreement. Guest (1): Individuality will be there for the self as well as for all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): That is what I mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Now, how that kind of living or what kind of religion is that, on that... Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the authorized Vedic literature. You cannot imagine. You cannot speculate. You have to learn from authority. Guest (1): Authority... Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose if you want to go to Germany. Now you have no idea how the German people live or their, how they are, what is their culture. So you have to learn. Here is a boy, German. You have to learn from him what kind of life there is. Similarly, there is a life like that. Now, what kind of life that is, we have to ask from a person who has realized that life. Guest (1): There are two things. I am still, I'm still... that we are raised upon this material life (indistinct) that may be available just like air. Air we do not keep the air under lock and key. There is no dearth of time, no dearth of energy, no dearth of resources. Only dearth is that we have no clear perspective (indistinct) we are under control. (indistinct) in the only because of our other and therefore we have become confused. So from Buddha's time we wanted there should be no sickness, old age, and death, etc. But it is continuing. There is no such country... Prabhupāda: But how do you respect these words of Lord Buddha, first thing is. Guest (1): No, I have got one thing, you see, that it is through the diffusion... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Lord Buddha, we have to accept him as an authority, Lord Buddha. Now, he gives you idea that no misery. So how do you accept these words of Lord Buddha? Guest (1): No, I do not because that was not..., has not come into... Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he was giving that hint in spiritual life, not in this life. Guest (1): Yes. So I wondered that if we can create, when we are free from this and we do not fight on the air. We fight on the things which are scarce. And why there is a scarcity? Because we are not (indistinct) people. Therefore there is a scarcity. If we think on that point and all this is clear, then, when there is no want of life of a material even, then only, every person rises himself from this material... Prabhupāda: First thing is... May I ask your name? Guest (1): Bateriya. Prabhupāda: Batel. Guest (1): Bateriya. Prabhupāda: Bateriya. You belong to this province? Guest (1): No, I came from Sindh, Karachi. Prabhupāda: Oh, Bateriya. So Mr. Bateriya, this process, this transcendental knowledge, super, superhuman knowledge, you cannot think first of all. You cannot think. You have to learn. Guest (1): To realize all these things. Prabhupāda: Realize after learning from the authority. Guest (1): Because you see, this question I have asked from 1939... There was a little problem in Karachi. I was very fond of my father. He died when I was only ten. I thought on, "What is this?" and all these things. "Why we are, humanity is suffering all these things?" It was this question in my mind and what other, I thought of these problems. This appeared as invisible, you see, and material, but to me, inside, it is, you see, a teaching because it was not taught for any individual or for any kind of... It is taught for all men beyond the world so that we can bring that kind of life... Prabhupāda: No, you are thinking from your side. Guest (1): Not from my..., as a particular person but as of the, our own humanity, as a spiritualist. Prabhupāda: The spiritual knowledge is called tat knowledge, tat, oṁ tat sat. Guest (1): Oṁ tat sat. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Oṁ tat sat. So the tat knowledge is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tad-viddhi. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Praṇipātena. You understand praṇipāta? Surrender. Guest (1): Surrender. Prabhupāda: So tad viddhi. If you want to understand that transcendental knowledge, then you have to accept this process, praṇipāta. Praṇipāta means surrender, and surrender means there must be somebody to whom you surrender. Guest (1): Whom you surrender, yes. Prabhupāda: There are two, not alone. So you cannot alone think of tat knowledge. You have to surrender to somebody. That is the process. Guest (1): There are eight kinds of getting the knowledge, means bhakti... Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is a process. Bhakti is not knowledge. That knowledge you acquire by your sense perception, and bhakti is the pure activities of the senses. Guest (1): No, surrender means bhakti. One surrenders to... Prabhupāda: No question of bhakti. That is the process. If you want to know about tat, then that is the process. You have to surrender. So long you will think that "I can think of, I have got power," you'll be failed. Guest (1): That consideration of "myself, I am thinking," that is not there. Prabhupāda: Then who is thinking? Guest (1): Thinking means... Prabhupāda: No, no, don't use abstract knowledge. As soon as you are thinking, you are thinking. Guest (1): No, that sometimes thinking, when you are listening inside you... Prabhupāda: Anyway, listening or thinking, these are different process of acquiring knowledge, but you are doing that. Guest (1): Yes, my outer form is doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): But inner form may be... Prabhupāda: What is that inner form? You are inner form. Your outer, your coat, is not thinking. Your shirt is not thinking. What you mean by outward, inward? Inward you are. Outward your coat and shirt. Do you think your coat and shirt is thinking? You are thinking. Guest (1): Yes, I am thinking, but, you see... Prabhupāda: There is no "but." You are thinking. Guest (1): I am thinking. One is at the lower level, and one is at the higher... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Either in the lower level or in the higher level, you are thinking. Guest (1): Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: And therefore, because you are thinking in the lower level, therefore your thinking is imperfect. So to be in higher level, you have to surrender to a higher personality. Guest (1): Higher wouldn't be better than that. Prabhupāda: Just like child is thinking something. His thinking is lower level. But when he inquires from his father, that is higher level. The same thinking is he, but one stage his thinking is lower level; in another stage his thinking is higher level. But thinking always, he. Guest (1): Yes, thinking is his always. Prabhupāda: Yes. So tat knowledge is higher level, and therefore you have to accept that tat knowledge from a higher level personality, not from by yourself, because you are in the lower level. Guest (1): No, how do we know lower level and higher level? Prabhupāda: Because you do not know, therefore you... Why you are thinking? Because you do not know. Guest (1): No, it is not that... Prabhupāda: Then there is no question of asking me. Then you think yourself. Guest (1): No, we were trying... Prabhupāda: First of all you try to understand the principle. Why you have come to ask me? Guest (1): Not ask but just... Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking on the lower level. Guest (1): No, no, to configure over it, not to ask or... Prabhupāda: Why configure? Configure does not mean that you have thought something in lower level; I have to confirm that. Guest (1): Not even that. We have all... Prabhupāda: Then, if you are thinking right, if you are thinking on the higher level, there is no question of coming to me. Guest (1): There is no question of coming or going. Just it was that... Prabhupāda: Anyway, inquiry. Guest (1): No, no, spiritual endeavor. There is no use in that. It may be in lower level or higher level. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is. There is. There is. Higher level, lower level, there is, as soon as there is thinking, feeling, and willing. These are the activities of the mind, and there is higher level, lower level, etc... Guest (1): In that we are missing the main twist out of whole thing. Prabhupāda: So main twist... But main you are not missing. The point is that if you continue to think on the lower level, then how you can reach to the higher level? Guest (1): What is the distinction between higher and lower? Prabhupāda: You do not know? A child is thinking. Guest (1): No, let us think of what is the highest thing. *Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the highest man. Yes. That is Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like Bhagavad-gītā says that tad viddhi: "You understand that transcendental knowledge by surrender." So if you do not surrender, there is no possibility. Guest (1): But I might have surrendered myself to my own... Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. You are thinking lower level, and how you can surrender to yourself? Then how you can get advance? Your surrender means to a superior person, as soon as you call surrender. And without this, there is no possibility. Guest (1): Many have... Prabhupāda: No "many." This is the general process. Guest (1): No, general process sometimes have failed. Prabhupāda: No, why fail? The schools are going on. Colleges are going on. Guest (1): Therefore they are fearing also... Prabhupāda: Still, they are not closed. Guest (1): Closed... Today they are coming to that. *Prabhupāda: That is another theory. But the process is, our Vedic process, tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "In order to understand tat knowledge one must approach a spiritual master." Gacchet. If you don't accept these principles, then how you can make progress? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. If you don't accept this principle, there is no possibility. Then you can go on thinking in your own way. There is no question of going to anyone. You make yourself perfect by thinking, as many others are doing, speculating. That is possible but never to the perfectional point. Guest (1): Perfectly, you see... What is the category of different perfection? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Guest (1): No, no, learn from whom? Prabhupāda: From the higher authority. Guest (1): So how we know? Prabhupāda: That is another thing, who is higher authority. That you have to search out. That you have to search out. Guest (1): We must understand what is higher person and what is lower and whether Buddha is correct or not. Prabhupāda: Now, higher authority... Suppose we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Guest (1): It is accepting. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Do you accept that? Guest (1): I mean, I am shown the form. You see... *Prabhupāda: There is no question of shown. Kṛṣṇa is accepted higher authority not only by us by big ācāryas like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, those who are guiding our Vedic life in India, Caitanya. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the highest authority. [break] Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nāsti: "There is no more higher authority than Me." Then, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, that is your business, but we accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority. Guest (1): So something is coming in that way because Kṛṣṇa, that was what He had said in a particular time or country... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Authority means..., it does not mean a time. Guest (1): No, for that time. Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try, try... Authority means... Guest (1): For the time. Prabhupāda: All the time. That is authority. Guest (1): No, but later, later many lights shining... Prabhupāda: (knock on door) Yes, open it. Anyway, to make cut short, to make cut short, so far we are concerned, we have declared, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness." Our process of propaganda is that Kṛṣṇa is the highest authority. That is our... You may take it that we are limited; that is your business. But we have taken this. Now, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, then there is no question of inquiring from us. Guest (1): What is the form, you see, I mean... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the form. Here is Kṛṣṇa's form. Guest (1): No, no, not that form. Prabhupāda: Then what form? Guest (1): What I mean is we are accepting anything to bring ourselves to certain destination which will satisfy us all. For that we are... Prabhupāda: Nothing can satisfy everyone. That is not possible. There is no such thing within this material world which can satisfy everyone. There is no such thing. Guest (1): Because we... Prabhupāda: No, no, because... There may be so many "because." But the fact is that there is nothing in this material world which can satisfy everyone. Guest (1): There can be a method which can... Prabhupāda: Maybe, but we do not know. Guest (1): Therefore beyond that, you see, I came... Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa. We accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme authority. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Who is accepting this? We have accepted. Some others may have accepted but you have not accepted. So therefore even Kṛṣṇa's injunction is not accepted by everyone, what to speak of others? So therefore you cannot find out within this material world anything which can satisfy everyone. That is not possible. Guest (1): We have not found that. Prabhupāda: You may think, but we have concluded that there is nothing, such thing, which can satisfy everyone. It is not possible. Guest (1): Until we hear all, we may do that... Prabhupāda: That may be an ideal, but we take Kṛṣṇa as the highest authority. Even Kṛṣṇa's words are not accepted. That's a fact. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So a few persons might have surrendered to Him. Even Kṛṣṇa was present, only the Pāṇḍavas and the inhabitants of the Vṛndāvana and Dvārakā, some of them understood that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. But many did not accept Him. Many insulted Him. Just like Śiśupāla insulted Him. So even Kṛṣṇa could not be accepted. Guest (1): Accept, I accept everyone. That is no question of accepting or... Prabhupāda: No, no, your... I have summarized that first of all you have come to inquire from us that our standard of knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as the standard of perfection of knowledge, then there is possibility of our talking. Otherwise simply waste of time. Why shall we waste our time? Our standard is Kṛṣṇa. If you are agreeable to accept the standard of Kṛṣṇa, then there is possibility. Just like here is a lawyer. He goes to the lawyer. He speaks, he pleads, on the standard of the lawbooks. If somebody comes, "No, no, I don't accept this," then there is no question of argument. Both the lawyers are arguing. The central point is the lawbook. So you must have a central point on which we shall talk. If you have no central point... Guest (1): Central point of happiness is there now. Prabhupāda: Yes, your point is happiness; *my point is happiness. That is all right. But what is that happiness? Just like the same example can be that two litigants, they have gone to the court. Their aim is justice. But how that justice can be had, that is an argument and on the point of law. Similarly, everyone's point is happiness. And what is that standard of happiness, that you have to take from some authority. That authority we accept, Kṛṣṇa. And if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then we cannot come to the conclusion what is happiness. So you will simply waste our time. Begin ārati. [break] You see? It was... Sometimes the light was coming, sometimes... That means they were adjusting. There was some meeting, adjusting. As soon as it is coming to the real point it was light. And as soon as not in the real point there is no light. So it is a science. Therefore the Vedas says, tad*-vijñānam It is a vijñāna. It is not a theoretical, whimsical... Guest (1): It is to be felt. Prabhupāda: Ah... Yes. It is to be learned, just like the electrician learns how to adjust the positive and negative wire, and as soon as it is rightly adjusted there is light. You cannot say, "No, no, why it shall be adjusted like this? It can be done like this." Oh, that will not give you light. You cannot speculate on the science. One plus... Two plus two equal to four. You cannot speculate, "Oh, can it not be three? Cannot be five?" No, that is not possible. You have to accept this two plus two equal to four. So the same example: so long it was not being adjusted to the right point, there was no light. So this adjustment... Suppose there is failure in my home. For this adjustment I have to call an experienced man. You may be a lawyer, you may be very nice thinker, but so far electricity is concerned, you have to call for a mistrī, who may not be learned like you but he knows the art, how to do it, expert. Similarly, such a vast subject to understand God, you do not require the help of an expert? Guest (1): I did not take that... Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't mean you. Anyone. Anyone. If for ordinary things we have to call for an expert, to understand God is it not necessary to approach an expert? What do you think, Manuel? Manuel: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: That is... Therefore the Vedas says, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ: "In order to know that transcendental science," sa gurum evābhigacchet, "he must go to a guru. He must approach." A guru means not bogus guru. One who knows expert. But one has to do that. There is no other alternative. That is the injunction of every Vedic śāstra. And this order is from the Kathopaniṣad. Then, on the Bhagavad-gītā the same thing is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Praṇipāta means surrender. Surrender where? Where to surrender? To a coolie? No, to a superior person, guru. Similarly, Bhāgavata says, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam: [SB 11.3.21] "One who is inquisitive to understand the spiritual science," tasmād, "therefore," guruṁ prapadyeta, "must surrender to a guru." Just our, this morning prayer is guru, beginning of life, beginning of day's work, first worshiping guru. *So in our, this Vedic way of life, to accept guru is essential. Even big, big ācārya... Even Kṛṣṇa, He accepted guru, Sandipani Muni. Lord Caitanya accepted guru, Īśvara Purī. They are perfect, but still, the ways They are showing because They are ācārya. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, taking the part of the ācārya, so he is also accepting, although the fact is as soon as went to, within a few days He learned everything. That is stated in our Kṛṣṇa Book. Within a few days He became expert warrior, expert magician, expert yogi, every..., so many things, all arts. But He learned from a guru. He is perfect Himself, Kṛṣṇa. He is called Yogesvara. He knows all the yoga process, but still, in order to teach us, because He is playing the part of a teacher, He shows us that you must learn from guru. "I am learning from guru." So any science, you cannot learn it automatically by yourself. No, that is not. Then we shall create so many mental speculators, so many things. That will be not a science. Even all scientists, they accept a formula from an authority: "law of gravitation." They accept it. Then their physical, so many things they discover. But accept one formula. Just like this formula is given by Sir Isaac Newton. So they accept guru. So from all practical point of view, the things which are unknown to us, we have to accept a guru, for things unknown to us. Now, there is another verse. Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jātaḥ. Abodha-jātaḥ. We are all born ignorant. Is it not? What do you think? Are we not born fools? Is it not? Guest (2): Jñānena... Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean to say, take our present position. You were born, I am born, he is born, everyone. Are we not born foolish? What do you think? Guest (2): The only sense is cry... *Prabhupāda: So many ways we do not know. There is some trouble, I am crying, child is crying, and the mother knows that, "He is suffering. Give..." Seeking the help of the mother. Then we are going to a school. The father is training, mother is training. Are you not born foolish? In the Bhāgavata says, abodha*-jātaḥ: "born foolish." Everyone is born rascal. So if he does not take help from the authorities how he can make progress? You have become lawyer by sitting at home? Guest (2): No, no, I take tests for many time. I look at books and I take test for one year, twelve, fourteen hours. *Prabhupāda: That is the process. So how can you deny to understand the supreme science*-you can do it independently? No, that is not possible. Therefore it is the verb, the form, gacchet. It is called vidhilinga. You know Sanskrit? Yes. This form of verb is... Perhaps you also know. Gacchet, kuryat, gadyat. These are vidhilinga. Vidhilinga means that is compulsory. Is it not? Guest (3): Yes. *Prabhupāda: He knows Sanskrit very well. Compulsory. Therefore it is said, gacchet*-compulsory. Tad-vijñānārtham... Tat, the transcendental knowledge, vijñāna, that is science. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva niścayate [MU 1.2.12]. Eva is niścayate. Eva means certainly. And again gacchet, "must go." Now, just like to be educated, one must be admitted in a school, must be. Now, what kind of school he has to select, that is another thing, but he must. That's a fact. Similarly, you have to accept a guru. Now, whom you will accept a guru, that is another thing. But you have to do it. That is the injunction of all śāstras. Vedic process is like that. This upanayana, the sacred thread, upanayana. Upa means near, and nayana means bringing. Anayanam, coming or going, like that, nayanam. So "to go near the spiritual master," upanayana. *Guest (3): Upanayana*-saṁskāra. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And that sacred thread is the certificate that he has accepted a spiritual master. That is our Vedic system, identity, thread, sacred thread. So the upana... The saṁskāra is called upanayana-saṁskāra. Upanayana means he has gone near the spiritual master. Therefore he is now dvija, second birth. When a person goes to the spiritual master, that is his second birth because he is born foolish. Take birth by the combination of father, mother-that is material birth*-that is a birth of ignorance, just like animals. The animals also take their birth in that way. There is no different process, the sex life. So what is the difference between animal and man? Therefore, upanayana, dvija. Guest: Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. *Prabhupāda: Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Unfortunately there is no saṁskāra at the present moment. So therefore they remain śūdra. A śūdra means fourth*-class. So how a fourth-class man can speculate on the science of God? *Guest (2): But śūdras are not allowed to upanayana*-saṁskāra. Prabhupāda: No. No, no, no. Now, don't take that way. One who does not take saṁskāra, he is śūdra, because janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born śūdra. But if one does not accept the saṁskāras, he remains a śūdra, not that śūdras are not allowed to take saṁskāra. Then how it is, that janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ? Guest (4): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There are many instances. But this very word, "by birth one is śūdra," so there is no discrimination that "You are not śūdra. I am not...," by birth, abodha*-jāto, because he is born foolish rascal. Now, by saṁskāra, by culture, by education, he becomes dvija, second birth. The practical example is these European and American students. They were doing all nonsense but since they have come to guru their life is reformed; *therefore they are dvija. Saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, veda*-paṭhet... Now, when he becomes dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas, not as a śūdra. When we say śūdra has no right to study Vedas, that means he will not be able to understand. Just like you became lawyer, but the condition is, unless you become graduate, unless you have graduated yourself, you cannot enter law college. That does not mean law is prohibited for anyone. It is open for everyone, but first of all you make yourself university graduate; then enter law. Similarly, everyone is śūdra. Guest (2): A particular standard of understanding should be qualified. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless he has got saṁskāra, he is enlightened by culture and knowledge, unless he has become dvija, then there is no authority for studying Vedas. Veda*-paṭhet. After one has become dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, and veda-paṭhed bhaved vipraḥ. Vipra. Then he becomes... Gradually increasing, from śūdra he comes to dvija, then vipra. And after being vipra, after studying all the Vedas, when he realizes Brahman, then he is brāhmaṇa. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that, gradual process, gradual process and to make him a qualified brāhmaṇa. And when he becomes brāhmaṇa, then he knows Brahman. Then he makes spiritual progress. Without... Therefore, without becoming brāhmaṇa nobody can make spiritual progress. That is the door of spiritual knowledge. Then he makes progress, makes progress. So after understanding Brahman knowledge, then he comes to Paramātmā knowledge, then he comes to Bhāgavata knowledge. Guest (4): Veda says, (Sanskrit) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bala*-mūrti-tejaḥ. So this is the scientific process. It is vijñāna. Tad-vijñānam. And in the Seventh Chapter in Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitaṁ. Jñānaṁ vijñāna-sahitaṁ. It is vijñāna. It is science. Guest (3): Jñāna means knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, no. Vijñāna is practical application. Guest (3): When you apply jñāna and... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is vijñāna. So jñāna knowledge, first knowledge, is what is God, what is God and what is my relation with Him. This is knowledge. Then you... When you act according to that knowledge, that is vijñāna. That is bhakti. When you understand fully well that "God is great, and I am a small minute part and parcels of God," and then you understand that the part and parcel's duty is to serve the whole... Is it not? Just like the finger is part and parcel of my body. Its duty is to serve the whole body. Similarly, if we accept, if we understand, that "I am part and parcel of God; *then my duty is to serve God." But people are being misled that he is thinking God himself. Although he is under so many restrictions and stricture of the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāṇi guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. He is so foolish and rascal that he is thinking, "I am independent." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā karta aham iti manyate. He is strictly under the stringent laws of material nature, but still, he is thinking falsely that "I am supreme. I am independent." So therefore surrender required, that "I am not supreme." That is knowledge. That is knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births of this speculation, when actually he becomes jñānavān, wise, then he surrenders." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. So unless we surrender, so long we think that "I am independent, I am God, I am Supreme," these are all illusions. What do you think? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: It is illusion, simply illusion. If I am God, how I have become so much dependent on the laws of material nature? Why I have accepted this body which I do not want? What kind of God I am? So the whole world is full of these ideas. So this movement is a revolutionary movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (5): (Hindi) What is the meaning of God. *Prabhupāda: He does not... He does not know what is meaning of God. He thinks that God is something plaything. Therefore he claimed that "I am God." He does not know what is God. Therefore God personally showing*-He's coming, Kṛṣṇa: "What is God, see." God is from very beginning God. Kṛṣṇa, from the birth He is God. He hasn't got to meditate. He hasn't got to go to the forest and..., to become God. He is God. Guest (5): God is made for, sir. Prabhupāda: Not "God is made." God is never made. God is God. Guest (5): But, sir, G means (Hindi?) *Prabhupāda: That is your speculation. G means this, O means this, this means this. That you can interpret in so many ways but God is God. God is great. Brahman. Brahman means great, Parabrahman, the greatest. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā? Guest (3): Before the birth of Lord Kṛṣṇa, was God existing? God exhibit temporally... *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn what is the birth of Kṛṣṇa. You do not know. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. You do not know what is the birth. You are thinking that He is, like ordinary man He has taken birth. Otherwise why does He say, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ? Nobody knows what is His birth? He thinks He's... Just like a child sees daily that the sun rises from the eastern side*-therefore eastern side is the father of sun. Is eastern side father of the sun? Sun is always there, but you see in the morning it is appearing from the eastern side. That's all. It is your angle of vision, not that sun is born, taking birth from the eastern side. Sun is always there in the sky. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is always there but to the foolish person it appears that He is born. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā. Ajo 'pi: "I have no birth." Ajaḥ. This very word is used. Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san. So how you can compare Kṛṣṇa's birth like ordinary birth? If anyone knows what is Kṛṣṇa's birth he becomes liberated. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that knowledge is not tattvataḥ knowledge, that Kṛṣṇa's birth. Kṛṣṇa's birth is every moment. Just like sun. Now here it is not sunshine but in another place the sunshine is rising. So is that the birth, or when the sun will rise here, that will be birth? Which will be the birth of sun? Guest (3): It will always be there. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already there but when you see, you see, you see that it is birth. The sunrise is already somewhere, and the sunset is also already somewhere but in your angle of vision there is no sun. That is going on. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's birth, every moment; Kṛṣṇa's disappearance, every moment; *Kṛṣṇa's existence, every moment. You have to learn that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, janma karma me divyam [Bg. 4.9], transcendental. Yo janati tattvataḥ. Anyone who knows it perfectly, in truth, he becomes liberated. If you have known Kṛṣṇa, then you are liberated. But Kṛṣṇa knowing is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. It is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa in truth. Then how one can understand? That is also stated: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Not by speculation of knowledge. Bhaktya. And what is that bhakti? Anyābhilaṣita-śunyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlānaṁ bhaktir uttama [Cc. Madhya 19.167][Brs. 1.1.11]. So these things you have to learn. Then there is possibility of knowledge, tad-vijñāna. The difficulty is at the present moment the theory that everyone can invent his way of understanding God. He can speculate. Therefore there is chaos. There is chaos. If you want to save yourself from this chaotic condition of life you must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our proposal. Give me that knife. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not so many. Begin. Aiye. [break] ...friend of Kṛṣṇa. How much exalted he is, a great warrior, and he has the right to talk with Kṛṣṇa on equal level. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as spiritual master. And he said, "The confusion which I have created, it is not possible for me to clear it. It is You only who can clear, I know. Therefore I accept You as spiritual master." Therefore it is required that one should know who can clear your confusion, and there you must surrender. (aside:) Anyone? Everyone. Come on. Not in the left hand. Don't give anything by left hand; don't take anything. That is a etiquette. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Yes. Guest (2): I'll look on here this morning.(?) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Oh, you haven't got. You have got? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (birds crying) The sunrise is declared. "Koo koo koo koo koo." Yes. Nature's way. They'll not sleep any more. Therefore anyone who sleeps after sunrise, he is a rascal. He's a rascal. Yes. A child at once, early in the morning, rise. That is nature. But we have created such a life that we have to break all the nature laws and therefore we suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante [Bg. 7.14]. And one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is free. He is rising early. He has surpassed the māyā. And those who are in māyā they are sleeping. And those who are not in māyā they are rising early in the morning. Is it not? Mām eva ye prapadyante: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes free from the māyā's contamination." Just see. There is maṅgala ārati. In Vṛndāvana just at four o'clock. You have heard? Yamunā: I was just thinking, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Immediately there is "dung, dung, dung, dung," all temples. Immediately. And people are running. Oh, they will gather all to the Deity, temple. Hundreds of people will go automatically. The same man who was living at home, a very degraded condition, as soon as he goes to Vṛndāvana he becomes habituated to all these things automatically. Automatically. Yes. The society, association, is very important. Yamunā: Those beautiful birds, the peacock birds also at this time, they are flying in trees and waking up now and make that sound. Oh, Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: So the society is very important thing. Any, anything, society... The businessmen, they have got their association, society, to improve. Therefore the standard of this International Society should be kept very carefully. Then who will come in touch with this society will be improved automatically by association. All right. Even in the bird society there are swans and there are crows, by nature, and the crows will never go to the swans, and the swans will never come to the crows. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Yes. Therefore society required. Unless you come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, how you can develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The same principle. Satāṁ prasaṅgān... Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathaḥ [SB 3.25.25]. Vīrya-saṁvidaḥ. It becomes very palatable, satāṁ prasaṅgāt, in the association of devotees, not otherwise. (end) Discussion with Indians -- January 18, 1971, Allahabad *Prabhupāda: ...a bona fide spiritual master. Bona fide spiritual master means who carries out the order of higher authorities. Otherwise he is not spiritual master. Anyone who manufactures his own process of religion, that is rascaldom. dharmāṁ tu sakṣād bhagavat*-praṇitam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like lawyer, representative of the law, means who carries the order of the supreme executive. He is lawyer. Similarly, a spiritual master means who carries the order of superior authority. We are carrying the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa taught this Bhagavad-gītā, and He has said that "Anyone who will preach this confidential message of Bhagavad-gītā, he is very dear to Me." Guest (1): (indistinct) ...and believers in Sai Baba and other we believe in an incorporeal God, nirākāra. So if Kṛṣṇa as Rāma or any other deity or devata, one who was definitely a superior ātman, no doubt about it, but Paramātman is all other religions' God, if something incorporeal is there, without referring to the... Prabhupāda: Who says, "incorporeal"? Who says? Guest (1): It is scripture. (?) Prabhupāda: No, no. Who says, "incorporeal"? *Guest (1): Śiva*-liṅga. You find it all over India, that, a summary of everything, that incorporeal form, jyotir-rūpa, incorporeal. Jyotir-liṅga, the Hindu svarūpa. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are bringing something else besides Bhagavad*-gītā. Just try to understand. We are preaching... This International Society for Krishna Consciousness, we are preaching... Guest (1): But you have to understand the relation between the two. *Prabhupāda: That's all... That we understand very nicely. It is not that I have to learn from you. We know it very well. But you should know that we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. So this jyotir-liṅga, all these theories, they are not in the Bhagavad-gītā. It may be in other literature, but we are particularly interested in preaching Bhagavad-gītā. Because Bhagavad-gītā is wrongly preached all over the world by nonsense commentation, we want to rectify it. Therefore our society is specially named "Krishna conscious." Guest (1): What is wrongly preached about *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: Wrong... Just like yesterday I went that *Gītā* Samītī. There is a lamp. Why there is a lamp instead of Kṛṣṇa? Why there is a lamp? Kṛṣṇa is a lamp? And it is Bhagavad... Guest (1): I don't know... Prabhupāda: You do not know. Therefore I say this is wrongly preaching. Why in the place of Kṛṣṇa there is a lamp? Does Kṛṣṇa say? Guest (1): Lamp has been with us for more than... In our mandira... Prabhupāda: That's all right. (Hindi?) Kṛṣṇa is also there. Guest (1): They must evolve with that idea because... *Prabhupāda: No, no. First thing is that when we speak of Bhagavad*-gītā, it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. So why there is no Kṛṣṇa photograph? Guest (1): They didn't put the picture. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That means you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Therefore your, this so*-called Gītā society is not bona fide. At least even in ordinary feature, suppose if there is political meeting, you keep Gandhi, this photo, Jawaharlal Nehru's photo because they are the political leaders. You are preaching Bhagavad-gītā, Gītā Samītī, and there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): There is little misunderstanding, that *Gītā* Jayantī is for... Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer me this question. Then you go to *Gītā* Jayantī. That, your Samītī is *Gītā* Samītī and there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Guest (1): We don't know about that one. Prabhupāda: You were not there present? Oh. That's not... I think you were present. Guest (2): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is misguided. Guest (2): I never gone there, never been there. *Prabhupāda: This is misguided. That's all. Now, "Gītā Bhavan," and they have invited me because we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā, and that was Gītā's Jayantī*-and the speaker of Gītā is not present? Therefore I say that there are so many places, here also. They are wrongly representing Bhagavad-gītā. So our position is to rectify that wrong propaganda of Bhagavad-gītā. Guest (2): What is that wrong propaganda? *Prabhupāda: That is one of the instance. There are many instances, many instances, many instances. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan. In the Ninth Chapter there is verse, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Where he gets this nonsense idea? Guest (1): No, that Vivekananda also has said. *Prabhupāda: They are all nonsense! Therefore I say they are all nonsense, who deviates from the original text of the Bhagavad*-gītā. Guest (2): Swamiji, by declaring other interpretation as nonsense... Prabhupāda: Yes! You cannot interpret! First of all if you cannot interpret. First of all my proposal, that you cannot interpret. Guest (2): We'll come to that, that you are not interpreting correctly, does not make me correct. I must be correct also to... Prabhupāda: I am correct so long I present the correct thing, so long I am... If I present Kṛṣṇa as it is, then I am correct. Guest (2): My solution, Swamiji, most respectfully, is how do you judge that "I am correct"? *Prabhupāda: Because I am presenting what Kṛṣṇa says. First of all you answer this: what is correct, the standard of correctness? You cannot create correctness. When Kṛṣṇa says this, man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You just surrender unto Me; become My bhakta," how you can say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is not nonsense? If I say, "Give me a glass of..." Hear me. If I say, "Give me a glass of water," if you say, "It is not to Swamiji," is that interpretation? Guest (1): I do not, and again I say... Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me. If I say, "Give me a glass of water," and you say, "It is not to Swamiji." Guest (1): (indistinct) ...what the Christ says, Mohammed says, everyone says, that... Prabhupāda: Let them surrender to Christ. But why don't you surrender to Kṛṣṇa? Guest (1): No, that is true, but... Prabhupāda: That is true, but you do not know how. Guest (1): No, you see, our... Even your... Even your way of thinking and your purpose is that Lord Kṛṣṇa should be Lord of the whole universe, so..., Prabhupāda: Yes, Lord Kṛṣṇa is lord, universe. Guest (1): Universe? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): So that is what you want to talk with me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): In that case, you will have to satisfy everybody. Prabhupāda: I am satisfying everybody. I am preaching that. But it is not possible... I am preaching in Europe. Christians, Mohammedans, Jews, they are surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. So I am doing my duty. Guest (1): If I would be permitted, I would very humbly submit that... Prabhupāda: You may not. You have not to surrender, you may bring some argument, but where I am preaching, they are surrendering. Guest (1): You are doing a very wonderful work, there is no doubt about it, but the thing is that... Prabhupāda: But you do not like that wonderful work. Guest (1): ...judging duty of what we are doing, this is somebody else and not we ourself. Prabhupāda: Now... What you... My point is that our society is clearly giving you the indication that we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Every society has taken... Prabhupāda: So that's all right. If you like this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, you are welcome. Otherwise you leave. Guest (1): We have come here... Prabhupāda: Because first of all see that you are... Guest (1): If you reject... Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't talk, all together. First of all you must know what is the truth. If your standard of truth is different and my standard of truth is different, then where is the use of talking nonsense? If you have any other truth than Kṛṣṇa, you be satisfied. Guest (1): Seeking knowledge... Prabhupāda: Seeking God is sufficient. If you take... First of all you know my position. Suppose... Guest (2): I understand your position and I have from the beginning said most respectfully. I beg to submit and what my submission is that, as a seeker of knowledge, I come to you. Now... Prabhupāda: No, no, that... Do you know what is the process of seeking knowledge? Do you know that? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer me. You are seeking knowledge... Guest (2): The thing is... Prabhupāda: No, you also hear me. First of all let me know what is the process of seeking knowledge. You cannot make your own process. Guest (2): The concepts have changed. You are making a change from the... *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all you know that I am speaking from Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says, tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Is it not? Tad viddhi praṇipātena. You have to surrender first of all. Guest (2): Surrender to whom? Prabhupāda: Anyone wherefrom you are seeking knowledge. Guest (2): Ah! Surrender and... Guest (1): You lose your identity. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to find out a person where you can surrender. Then you can ask and you can seek knowledge. Otherwise there is no... Simply waste of time. Why should you waste your time? Why shall I waste my time? Are you surrendered to me? If you are not surrendered to me... Guest (2): I, I... Prabhupāda: No, no. Stop this. Just try to understand. If you are not surrendered to me you have no right to ask me anything. Guest (2): Before one surrenders to somebody, he should be satisfied first with the questions... Prabhupāda: Therefore... Yes. So that, that... Now that satisfaction, I cannot satisfy for your whims. Guest (2): It is not a whim... Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that I am preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you talk on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you can ask me. Guest (1): Yesterday you said in our nice gathering, I remember, that we have to rise above body consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is in the *Gītā*. Guest (2): And we have to be soul conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Now, the idea of rising above body consciousness is to sell off the wild things, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, ahaṅkāra. Guest (2): Ahaṅkāra Guest (1): Now, that is one thing that is there in all scriptures. The *Gītā* also says that kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, ahaṅkāra must be checked. Now, if we move with that pride and arrogance that "We are the only correct calling. This is the only correct path," and that "You have to surrender from the beginning," now that only aggravates the pride in a person. Prabhupāda: Then what can I do? Kṛṣṇa says... If you talk, two, I cannot answer. You talk with me, one. Guest (2): No, we have talked with reasoning. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't talk, two. I cannot answer with all these reasons. Either you talk or then let him talk. Guest (2): I am talking. I am talking now. Prabhupāda: Then you talk. Let him talk. Guest (2): So we have to tear all these vices that are connected with our body. That is our purpose of getting into either bhakti, or nāma, bhāgavata or whatever it may be. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): But in that way, if you talk from that, another way of ahaṅkāra and pride, then things cannot go far. Things cannot go far. Prabhupāda: So shall I answer now? Now you stop; *I answer. Now Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So even though you have got so many sinful life, Kṛṣṇa assures that "If you surrender unto Me I shall give you protection from the reaction." Guest (2): That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa, yes. Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Surrender to Kṛṣṇa, not surrender to all who... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We are saying not "Surrender unto me." We say, always saying, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore the same word. I am not saying that "I have become Kṛṣṇa. I have become God. You surrender to me." We are preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So we are not speaking differently from Kṛṣṇa. You try to understand. We are saying... Suppose if I say, "Give me a glass of water," and if you say, "Oh, give Swamiji immediately a glass of ...," the same thing. Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa also says in *Gītā* that... *Prabhupāda: No, first of all you try to understand this, that Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ: [Bg. 18.66] "only unto Me." *Guest (3): "I am the only one." Sarva*-dharmān... Prabhupāda: Again you are speaking. I am talking with him. Again you are speaking. No, no. I cannot answer in that way. Let him talk. No, no. You stopped me. Let him talk. Otherwise it is not possible. You put some question; *he puts some question. It is not possible. Now Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now what do you say? He is very proud? Guest (2): He's entitled to be proud. If a person has said that... Prabhupāda: Yes? Guest (2): Let him say that, but it doesn't mean everybody will be able to follow. That doesn't mean that. Maybe He has said. Prabhupāda: But then He doesn't say. You say, "If you follow me." Now it is your discretion to follow Him or not to follow Him. Kṛṣṇa said this to Arjuna. That does not mean everyone of the world, like Arjuna, surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Anyone, if he says, even Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, it is not that everyone follows that. That independence you have got. But our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me," and we are imploring, we are begging persons, that "You please surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Now it is your discretion. Whether you surrender to Kṛṣṇa or Lord Śiva, that is your discretion. But our preaching method is we are trying to preach in the world, "Please surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That is our position. Guest (3): Sir, can I speak now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): With your permission, I believe in *Gītā*. I believe in this thing, that it is the Lord who says: Prabhupāda: Then you find... Guest (3): Kṛṣṇa was body incarnate. Prabhupāda: Then you mean to say that Kṛṣṇa contradicts. Guest (3): No, not Kṛṣṇa contradicts. Prabhupāda: Then why you bring this question? Guest (3): The *Gītā*, the *Gītā* is... Sir, if I may be permitted to continue? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): *Gītā* jñāna itself is given by Lord incorporeal, not to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, it is told, at the time the jñāna was given had a body which became divya Vedānta(?). Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your interpretation. Guest (3): That is exactly what... Prabhupāda: No, you say. Anyone who... Anyone... Whatever he says, he thinks like that, exact. That is another thing. But we know that Kṛṣṇa had no difference between His body and soul. He is absolute. Now, you are talking from the point of view that Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa's soul is different. Guest (3): Ah, no... In every body... Prabhupāda: That is not the fact. That is not the fact. Guest (1): Sir, Kṛṣṇa could not the two... Prabhupāda: No, no, you say, "could not," but we do not say like that. Now who will settle up this thing? You say, but I do not say. Guest (3): If you say, "This is not the body..." *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are to speak on the Bhagavad*-gītā. We are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that mām ekam. He never says that "to My soul." Guest (3): No. He says, "I am one." Prabhupāda: Therefore He is one, both body and soul, one. That is one. Guest (1): Swamiji, material aspect in your understanding, they are one? *Prabhupāda: Therefore He is nonmaterial. Therefore He has spoken... No, no, if you compare with Him ordinary man, then at once you become a mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. No, you say... This is the saying of Bhagavad*-gītā. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā manuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. (Hindi) "Because I have taken this human form of life, the rascals, they think I am a human being." It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā. *Guest (2): I think... As my understanding of this aspect is concerned, He says, "When I adopt this medium through which I give this jñāna, mūḍhā*-matī do not understand Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, mūḍhā*-matī, how to understand? Guest (2): "Cannot recognize Me." *Prabhupāda: Suppose I am mūḍhā*-matī, so how I am to understand? Guest (2): Yes, but Kṛṣṇa as a body form could be seen and could be recognized by people as such. So there was no question of not understanding him. Prabhupāda: Thing is that whatever I have understood about Kṛṣṇa I haven't got to learn from you. Guest (2): No, you don't have to learn from me. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest (2): But what you have to learn... Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking my own views. I have got my ācāryas, my teachers, Rāmānujācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya. So it is all right. It is all right. I have got so many authorities. What authority you have got? Guest (2): I am, myself, in my own senses... Prabhupāda: Now, you are not authority. Guest (2): I am not but my own... Prabhupāda: I am following so many authorities. Then... Then there is no question. Guest (2): I am only... Prabhupāda: You are yourself authority. Now, if you say my views are not correct, I may be incorrect but I am following the predecessor. I am taking... Guest (2): What is the difference there? Sir, I accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Hundred per cent, you are very correct in saying what you have just said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): I want to understand that point of view. That is why I have come. *Prabhupāda: But this is the point of understanding. That I have already told you, in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that if you want to understand, first of all you have to surrender. Guest (2): Surrender to whom? Not to the ācāryas but to the... Prabhupāda: First of all find out whom to surrender, then talk. Guest (2): ...supreme ācārya Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you think that you are not fit for my surrender, that's all right. But first of all you find out somebody where you can surrender; then talk. *Guest (1): To jñāna*-datta Himself. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. If you surrender and if you get jñāna*-datta, that is all right. So far we are concerned, if we do not surrender, if you do not surrender, then you simply waste our time, idle talk. This is not the process. Guest (1): You have to treat the person with... Guest (2): For seeking knowledge from him. Prabhupāda: But you are not seeking knowledge. You have come to challenge it. You have come to challenge. Guest (2): No, no, no... (several Indian men talk at once) Prabhupāda: Now, you are saying that Kṛṣṇa says that incorporeal. But Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who thinks that I am incorporeal, that he is a fool." Guest (1): Quite right. Lord Kṛṣṇa as such, if anybody calls Him incorporeal, he's a fool. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Because He has a body, He has taken birth from Devaki. And incorporeal does not... Prabhupāda: Therefore the Kṛṣṇa says that one has to understand that what is Kṛṣṇa's birth. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that tattvataḥ is not yo. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa actually, he becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Anyone simply who understands Kṛṣṇa, he becomes immediately liberated. If you understood Kṛṣṇa correctly, then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. Guest (2): It is what... Prabhupāda: No, that's all. Then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. I am for those who are conditioned, but you are liberated, so you have nothing to ask from me. Guest (4): Rest of us, we persons, go. Prabhupāda: Then you are liberated; you have nothing to go. If you are liberated, then you have nothing to seek, knowledge. Guest (5): Thank you for listening. Time and place. He's already said that. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are liberated, you have nothing to go anywhere because you know everything. Guest (2): May I again submit with the honor that you have bestowed on me of having said that I am already liberated according to the version of *Gītā*... Prabhupāda: If you have understood Kṛṣṇa, then you are liberated. Guest (2): I still feel... I still feel... Prabhupāda: Then you haven't got to seek knowledge. Guest (2): I still feel that... Prabhupāda: You be satisfied with yourself. You are liberated. Guest (5): That means those who are to follow you are not liberated. Prabhupāda: I am not follow... Er, I don't say, "Follow me." I say, "Follow Kṛṣṇa." Why...? Don't mistake that. I say... My vision is that Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." I say, "You and everyone, surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Guest (5): That you make wherever you are spreading, not... Prabhupāda: Well, that is my business. Where I am spreading or not, that is my business. But I am saying this, that Kṛṣṇa says you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." I say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Is there any difference? Guest (2): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Is it not according to *Gītā*? Is it not according to *Gītā*? If I say, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa"... Guest (5): ...if each and every person has an individual identity of (indistinct) soul above the body consciousness and unless you treat him as equal, there is little... *Prabhupāda: No, nobody... You cannot say... Even though they are equal, you can see equal but they are not equal. They are not equal. There are three guṇas, and in the Bhagavad*-gītā that is analyzed, that "These persons are in the sattva-guṇa, these persons are in the rajo-guṇa, these persons are in..." Guest (5): That is not personality of the ātmā, but the ātmā is everybody's soul. Prabhupāda: That's all... First of all we have... Guest (5): If you have potency to rise and go higher and higher... Prabhupāda: You are not on the ātmā stage; I am not in the ātmā stage. You are in the bodily stage. Guest (5): Both, body and soul, together... *Prabhupāda: Then if you are in the ātmā stage, then you have no argument with me. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Guest (5): But argument, you have admitted that... *Prabhupāda: No, there is no argument. That will stop. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Guest (5): It is on arguments get down... *Prabhupāda: No. If you are... Just see. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gita, that: Guest (3): That is the correct position. *Prabhupāda: That is correct position. But if you find that "Swamiji is not on the standard," that means you are not in the posit..., sama*-darśinaḥ even. Guest (3): You mean if a person commits a murder, a sinner... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very high stage. That is very high stage, sama*-darśinaḥ. Guest (3): No, no. If a person commits a murder, you are seeing... Prabhupāda: So why you see, you are seeing, "Commits murder?" Why don't you see that it is Kṛṣṇa is acting there? Why you say that "commits murder?" Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is getting the sin committed. *Prabhupāda: Sama*-darśinaḥ means you have no distinction what is sin and what is... *Guest (1): Sama*-darśinaḥ means to treat everyone as equal. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Sama darśinaḥ means there is no distinction between sin and virtue. That is sama*-darśinaḥ. As soon as you see, "This is virtue, and this is sin," it is not sama-darśinaḥ. *Guest (1): Virtue and sin become the same in sama*-darśinaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sama*-darśinaḥ. Guest (2): In other words, the sin does not remain sin any longer. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But he has no vision that "This is sin, and this is virtue." That is sama*-darśinaḥ. As soon as you make distinction, you are not sama-darśinaḥ. Guest (2): In another interpretation, in... *Prabhupāda: You may interpret in a different. Sama*-darśi, this is plain word. Sama-darśi means there is no difference, that's all. *Guest (2): But sama*-darśi equals sama-darśi. The sin and virtue are the same. *Prabhupāda: No, here... Yes, that is sama*-darśinaḥ because here it is said clearly, vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇa [Bg. 5.18]. A brāhmaṇa, learned brāhmaṇa, and vinaya, very humble... That is the sign of goodness. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne gavi hastini śunica. Śunica means dog. Now he is seeing a dog and a learned brāhmaṇa-same. Now, dog is supposed to be sinful, and this learned brāhmaṇa is supposed to be virtuous. Therefore his vision, the virtuous and the sinful, the same. That is sama-darśi. Guest (1): I think that they have made a many mistakes in writing of the ślokas. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now you are finding mistake with Vyāsa, so who can talk with you? Guest (2): No, but, but... Prabhupāda: Please excuse me. Please go out. Please go out. Don't trouble. You are finding faults with Vyāsa. Guest (4): We only want you to be understood here. *Prabhupāda: (shouting) I am not sama*-darśi! I don't say I'm sama-darśi! I don't say, sama-darśi. So you say sama-darśi. Sama-darśi. *Guest (2): You should be sama*-darśi. Prabhupāda: But I am not in that stage. I say because you don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are sinful. That is my darśana. *Guest (4): So then you should be also seeing as sama*-darśinaḥ. Prabhupāda: No, why shall I? I am not in that position. I am not within that... I am simply repeating the words of Kṛṣṇa. Guest (4): Then that... You came to... Even your... (?) *Prabhupāda: I am simply teaching the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. That is my point. I may be sama*-darśi, I may be not sama-darśi. *Guest (4): Not be, but you teach that we should worship the sama*-darśi. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. I don't say. Guest (4): Ah! You say, Kṛṣṇa says that... *Prabhupāda: But that does not mean that one has become sama*-darśinaḥ. That is... That is his... Guest (4): Then he is not following the guru. Prabhupāda: No. My position is simply repeating. That's all. My position is. Guest (2): So we want understanding more than mere tape recorder. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you may be tape... But that is my position because I have been authorized in that way, that "Anyone who preaches this confidential subject matter, he is My dear." So I have nothing to learn, what is sama*-darśi. I have my position... *Guest (4): No, blind following and open*-eyed following, I say it is all right. We can read the book. We can read the verses, translation, Hindi translation. But that is not understanding. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not understanding, I understand. But I am understanding from my teacher, just like I told you, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. There are so many stalwart teachers, practically whole Hindu community. Guest (6): But every successive teacher has added some interpretations of the knowledge, no? Prabhupāda: First of all let him be successor. Guest (4): You are the successor of somebody. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Guest (4): Yes. So you want to act something to get knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (4): And what is your contribution, then? That is what we are asking. What is sama*-darśi? Have you become sama-darśi? *Guest (6): You are teaching others to be sama*-darśi... *Prabhupāda: My sama*-darśi is that why only the Hindus shall know Kṛṣṇa? The world should know Kṛṣṇa. Guest (6): World should know also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): What exactly Kṛṣṇa was and what is His teachings? That is what... teachings. Prabhupāda: So if you... If the Hindus refuse to know, what can I do? If the Hindus refuse to know, then what can I do? Guest (6): There is no challenge to anyone. *Guest (3): This is a simple open*-hearted discussion that we should have learned something, though we are not in a position to make...(Indians talking together) *Haṁsadūta: But the process of knowing is... Kṛṣṇa says, "Just try to approach a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render him all kinds of service. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. And when you have thus learned the truth you will know that all living beings are My parts and parcels, that they are in Me and are Mine." So if one is not prepared to approach a spiritual master inquiringly, not challenging, but with inquiry and followed by submission or service... You must be prepared to act on the instructions of the spiritual master. If those two qualifications are not with you, then why approach anyone for anything? You will simply waste his time and your own time. This is Kṛṣṇa speaking in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "You just try to approach a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively. Render him all kinds of service. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Guest (2): There is a difference of day and night between blind following and his following. Haṁsadūta: That is not blind following. Submissive inquiry and then you have to be prepared to test. Just like the professor, the professor in a college. He says, "You inquire from me." "My dear professor, how is it?" He says, "It is like this. You simply do this homework." And you do it. You have to do it; otherwise you cannot get any mark. You cannot make any advancement in the class. If you simply say, "Oh, why, why, why...?" Guest (1): No, no, but... Haṁsadūta: That is submission. That is inquiry and submission, that the master is there and you say, "All right, I accept you as my master and I want to follow your instruction." And then in the end, when you have done the work, then you can say, "Oh, this master, yes, he is correct," or "No, he's a fool." Guest (6): You have caught up only one śloka. *Haṁsadūta: There is no other way. It is not possible. Every śloka in the Bhagavad*-gītā is as good as any other śloka because it is absolute. Guest (6): Let me say, tell you what submissive word means in relation of *Gītā*. Haṁsadūta: Yes, the perfect example given by Arjuna, the perfect disciple, is "Now I am confused about duty..." Guest (7): ...more than you or I. Haṁsadūta: Arjuna says to Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna says to Kṛṣṇa... What does he say? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. First let me know whether you want to submit or not? Guest (8): I do! Prabhupāda: First of all answer this question, whether you want to submit or not. Guest (6): We want to submit after understanding. *Haṁsadūta: Try to understand. The teaching of Bhagavad*-gītā, teaching of Bhagavad-gītā begins when Arjuna admits, when he admits that "Oh, now I see. Now I am confused about my duty. Now I am a soul surrendered unto You. You please instruct me." Guest (6): We don't want... We have not come here... (many Indians talking at once) Haṁsadūta: If you are not prepared to follow the example of Arjuna and submit yourself... Guest (2): Swami Bhaktivedanta has said... Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. Guest (2): When we are all... (several talking at once) *Haṁsadūta: One at a time. One at a time. Let me make my point, that Gītā begins... The reason Gītā has value is because Arjuna, he admits his ignorance. He says, "Now I am confused about my duty and I am a soul surrendered unto You. You please instruct me." That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā. And if, if we want to take, or if we want to get the benefit of Gītā, then we must follow the example of Arjuna, who is the perfect disciple, and Kṛṣṇa is the perfect master. And the first point is you must become submissive. Guest (2): We understand now what you mean, submissiveness. Haṁsadūta: So that same thing is there if you want to learn from a spiritual master, that you come with an attitude of submission and prepared to follow the instructions. But if you think, "Well, if I like the instruction, I may follow. And if I don't like, then let him go to hell," then what is the use of inquiry? Guest (2): No, no, no. We don't want Prabhupāda... Guest (1): That is not the idea. Submissiveness is the only lesson of *Gītā* Haṁsadūta: That is the only lesson. "You just give up all..." Prabhupāda: No, we cannot hear any more. That is the only lesson. That is the only example. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up all forms of religiousness and just surrender unto Me." Guest (2): You are taking one śloka... Haṁsadūta: Any śloka, any śloka. Prabhupāda: Neither you can give up this śloka. You cannot give up this śloka. Yes. So first of all you answer. See practical example. When Arjuna became confused, he said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "Now I am surrendered unto You. Please teach me." Unless you come to that point, there will be no teaching and there is no use of teaching. Guest (7): What time and what energy... Prabhupāda: That you have to see. You have to see. You have to see your time, when you are prepared to surrender. When you are prepared to surrender, as Arjuna said that "I am now confused and I surrender unto You." If you think that you are not confused, you cannot surrender, then there is no question of teaching. Guest (2): Surrender is first condition. "You must surrender" is the first condition. Haṁsadūta: Yes. (end) Room Conversation -- February 14, 1971, Gorakhpur Prabhupāda: ...my Guru Mahārāja was in his last days, these rascal doctors injected... Our, this Kuñjabihārī, Tīrtha Mahārāja brought so many big, big doctors. And he protested, "Why are you giving me injection?" He protested. He personally said, "Why are you giving me injection?" And if you bring a doctor, the rascals will not stop. "Oh, that is our treatment. We must try our best." They will plead like that. "To give more trouble to the patient, that is our business." Inventing new medicines means inventing new means of giving trouble. That's all. As soon as you ask them whether by injection the life is guaranteed, they will say, "No. There is no guarantee. Let us try, make experiment." Yes. In hospital, as soon as you get (microphone moving)... Whatever nonsense knowledge they have got, they make experiment, at the risk of other's life. Haṁsadūta: When Himāvatī broke her leg they wanted to operate. I said, "Oh, no, no chance. No operation." Then they immediately said, "Then maybe she'll never walk again." Prabhupāda: Just see. Haṁsadūta: So I said, "Well, how can we tell?" They said, "Well, there's no way to tell." I said, "Suppose we operate. Then it's guaranteed that everything will be all right?" They said, "No." But they thought they should do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. They canvass, they convince like that and make experiment. That is their business. They have no, I mean to say, assured idea. Simply experiment. All these hospitals, they are meant for making experiment. I think I have told you one story of my servant. Did I? Huh? Haṁsadūta: No. Please tell us the story. (laughter) Devotee (1): That's a symptom of the modern civilization, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Operation. That is... Demons are to be cheated like that. Simply operation. Simply operation. Bas. Devotee (2): Also they're trying to get money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Injection and operation. That is in their hands. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we try to avoid getting injections as much as possible? *Prabhupāda: That is my opinion. But as soon as you go to a medical man, especially in your country, first of all, you have to give blood, immediately. (laughter) One ounce of blood immediately. First business. And then other injection. Because I underwent so many medical examination, I have got experience. For my immigration. I think, three or four times I was under health examination, and blood*-taking, and injection. Of course, it is not very painful. That arrangement is there. But the business is like that, "First of all give your blood; then talk of other things." Better to die without a doctor. (laughter) That's the best principle. Don't call any doctor. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and die peacefully. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But what about when you're not going to die... What about when you have some problems that's not fatal. Then who would we call? Prabhupāda: Then go take injection. What can be done? (laughter) There is no alternative. Devotee (1): How long will you be feeling bad from the injection? Prabhupāda: If it remains simply for a while that is sufficient to kill you. There is no question of how long. Devotee (1): It's just that you don't look very... You don't look like your normal self. There's no... Prabhupāda: Sometimes they do business, simply water they inject. Yes. Simply water and take fee. They know there is no necessity of medicine; still, they will inject some water, distilled water, and take the fees. I have seen the doctors and some, I mean to say, ordinary man, illiterate. "What kind of treatment you want? Injection or medicine?" So naturally, he will say, "The best one. I want to..." "Then you have to take injection." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali*-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ [SB 10.14.58]. In every step there is danger. Mālatī: This lecture was recorded in Gorakhpur, U.P., India, on the evening of Feb. 14, 1970 (end) Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur Devotee: ...then why is any one activity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness better than another one? Why is any one way of serving Kṛṣṇa better than another? For example, with chanting of the sixteen rounds. Suppose that you've gone 23 hours of the day serving Kṛṣṇa in one way or another, and the last hour there is opportunity to finish your rounds and also opportunity to make a life member. So instead of chanting your sixteen rounds... Prabhupāda: But you cannot create your concoction! You have to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Then why... Prabhupāda: There is no question of why. It is the order of Kṛṣṇa's representative. You have to abide by that. You cannot say, "Why?" Then you are not fully surrendered, as soon as you say, "Why?" Surrender means there is no "Why?" It is ordered; it has to be done. That's all. As soon as there is "Why?", there is no surrender. The basic principle is misguided. We have to follow. Just like we have got tilaka. If you say, "Why this tilaka?" There is no question of "Why?" Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthā. We have been instructed by the ācāryas; we have to follow that. That is surrender. You cannot say, "Why?" Is that clear? As soon as there is "Why?", there is no surrender. Guest: But suppose one is engaged for his livelihood for eight hours, or ten hours for material purposes... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: How he will link with Kṛṣṇa during that period? *Prabhupāda: Well, you have got twenty*-four hours. For livelihood... Your livelihood, if also... That also should be for Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi. Yat karoṣi. That means whatever you do, your livelihood is also... Do it. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Livelihood, just like we are also living, we are also eating, you are also eating. So what is the difference? You mold your life in such a way that that working for your livelihood would be also Kṛṣṇa's service. Guest: That should not be for ours. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam, yat karoṣi. "Whatever you do, the result should be given to Me." Do for it. "Do for for Me." Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi dadāsi yat [Bg. 9.27]. So this requires training, how everything can be molded for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore guidance required, bona fide spiritual master required. Under his guidance, one has to do. Ādau gurvāśrayam. In order to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one has to first of all accept a bona fide spiritual master. Then everything will be done. He is representative of Kṛṣṇa, and to act under his direction means acting under Kṛṣṇa. He knows how to utilize your energy for service of Kṛṣṇa. Ādau gurvāśrayam sad-dharma-pṛcchat sādhu-mārgānugāmanam. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was prime minister. He had no information of Kṛṣṇa, but since he saw... Of course, Rūpa Gosvāmī is eternally Kṛṣṇa's companion, but superficially he was showing that he was a prime minister and he was engaged in Nawab's service. But when he met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he decided that "I shall retire from this service and act Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission." So what did he do? Whatever money he collected by his service*-it was huge amount-fifty percent he immediately spent for Kṛṣṇa. And fifty..., twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his emergency expenditure. So this division, fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa means the whole life he acted as a minister, that means he acted for Kṛṣṇa. Because the result is given to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Is it clear? But our business is... Suppose I am earning for my livelihood. Everyone is working for... Livelihood requires only six annas per day. But he is earning six thousand per day, and he says, "It is my livelihood." Is it not fact? Very, very... Many, many big businessmen, they are earning six thousand per month...per day. But actually, for his livelihood he requires six annas. Why he's earning six thousand? Then Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me." Yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. *Guest: In Adhyāya Two of Śrīmad Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa, in one place He has told that karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ma phaleṣu kadācana. But don't take the result. Guest: He has ordered for duty, "You must do whatever you are doing." *Prabhupāda: Yes. So that duty should be performed. Nobody... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna did his duty. He was a fighter. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is his excellence. Is it not? He was a fighter. His duty as a kṣatriya, his duty is to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, everyone can perform his duty. That is also enjoined in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Varṇa and āśrama. There are different kinds of duties. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got his particular type of duty, but how he is becoming perfect by performing his duty, that is to be seen whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Guest: How it can be judged that...? Prabhupāda: That by, through Kṛṣṇa's representative. He should certify, "Yes. Your duty is nicely peformed." Guest: How he may perfectly judge it? How the person will judge himself that I am doing...? Prabhupāda: No. He'll not judge. His spiritual master will judge. Kṛṣṇa's representative. He'll not judge. He will make mistake. Therefore, if one has accepted a bona fide spiritual master, that means he is in direct touch with Kṛṣṇa. Transparent media. He has to see Kṛṣṇa through the transparent medium of spiritual master. Therefore it is imperative, one has to accept a... Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreyaḥ uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. And what kind of guru? Śabde pare ca niṣṇataṁ brahmaṇy upāśamāśrayam. So this is a big science. One has to study. One has to understand. The things are there. There is no difficulty. Guest: Just you have told about liberation, and in Adhyāya Two Kṛṣṇa has told that jīrṇāni vaśtrāni vihāya... Prabhupāda: Aparāṇi. Navāṇī vaśtrāni aparāṇi, gṛhṇāty aparāṇi. Guest: Yes. According to that version, one, if the soul was there, soul was there before birth, and after death, soul is there, and again the soul is coming in a new shape. So the soul is going on always, changing one body to another body, then how the soul is liberated? How it will be... Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṇa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vāṇīshed, again you have to accept another. But as soon as you become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], then, after leaving this body, he does not come to this material world. He is immediately... Mam eti, he transfers. Similarly, he accepts spiritual body. Is it clear or not? You are accepting material body now, birth after birth. Is it not? That is transmigration. Sometimes you are accepting human body, sometimes you are accepting dog's body, sometimes you are accepting king's body, sometimes you are accepting somebody else. Is it not? Is it clear? Guest: But Kṛṣṇa has told Arjuna that... Prabhupāda: First of all, try to clear this. Now, you are accepting different types of body. Is it not a fact? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, you haven't got to accept a material body. You go directly to Kṛṣṇa and accept spiritual body. Then your life is eternal. Guest: Then again he will not get material...? Prabhupāda: No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. When you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no more accepting material body. Mām eti. And mām eti means whoever goes to Kṛṣṇa, he has as good a body as Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Guest: Then what does it mean when Kṛṣṇa has told Arjuna, in the battlefield that "Do you think either you or I were not there in the past? And you and I will not be...?" Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna existed. You are existing. You are eternal. You are simply changing body. So Kṛṣṇa is existing; you are also existing. What is the difficulty to understand this fact? Kṛṣṇa is existing and you are also existing. You are simply changing body, but Kṛṣṇa is not changing body. That is the difference. Guest: Soul will not merge into that light, Kṛṣṇa's light? Prabhupāda: What is that merging? You have got that brain, merging. Guest: I told that... You have told... Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is changing body. Why you are talking of merging? You are changing body, you are individual. I am changing body. I may change to a dog's body, you may change to a demigod's body. That is going on. According to one's karma, he is changing body. Now, when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, this change of body will take place also, but that body will be spiritual. So long you get material body, you have to change, one after another, one after another, one after another. Just like if you have a cheap thing, it goes wrong, you have to purchase another new thing. But if you purchase a real, nice thing it will go, continue for good. Similarly, so long you are getting this cheap body, material body, you have to change. And as soon as you get the most valuable body, spiritual body, there will be no more change. Why don't you understand like that? So that you have to get. That is very simple. Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. One who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, he thinks that somebody is greater than Kṛṣṇa. But anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa as he is, immediately he gets that permanent body. Simply by knowing Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Is it clear? Yes. So you have to do that. You have simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. The whole problem is solved. (Prabhupāda is pounding on the table, stressing points.) Guest: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You cannot concoct. (Hindi) Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa can be understood simply by devotional service. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktya mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. (Hindi) If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept this devotional service. You cannot propose any other alternative. It is useless. Don't spoil time. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktya mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. And that begins: first of all, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Whatever nonsense you have known, thrown away. Simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān. Forty millions of years ago what He did, He remembers. Therefore His maraṇa. His janma is different. (Hindi) He remembers. You do not remember. You sambhava(?), but you do not remember. Why don't you understand the difference between your activities and Kṛṣṇa's activities? That is wanted. Why do you think that "Kṛṣṇa is as good as I am"? Then you'll be able to understand Him. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. As soon as you think that "Kṛṣṇa is as good as I am," then you are mūḍha. "Because He has appeared as a human being, therfore He is as good a human being like me." That is the conclusion of the mūḍha, rascals. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍha mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) ...bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. [break] ...understands Kṛṣṇa as He is, then he's allowed to, "Come on. Enter." Not before that. Guest: What about the argument, not (indistinct), but India we see that every great saint personality has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, even Mahatma Gandhi? Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Guest: He was also taking his... Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't say like that. Surrender of Kṛṣṇa is different. Then you have to understand what is surrender. Mahatma never surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He surrendered to yourself; therefore you killed him. (Indian laughs) He surrendered to his countrymen, and his countrymen killed him. He was working for his countrymen. That's all. He never worked for Kṛṣṇa. Guest: But the *Gītā* was always with him. Prabhupāda: But, but, no but. You see from the action. Guest: I also read *Gītā*. What's the difference? I mean, Mahatma Gandhi... Devotee: What is charka? Prabhupāda: Yes, spinning. Because he was spinning daily. Just like you are chanting sixteen rounds, he was spinning sixteen rounds. (laughter) And he said frankly, "Are you spinning charka?" They said, "No sir." "Oh, then I am not going there. My god is charka." That is practical. We have got experience. And actually he was refusing. Just like we are insisting, "You must chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds," he was... There were so many charkas daily selling. People took it very seriously. We also took charka and that, what is called? Devotee: Handloom. Prabhupāda: Handloom. And there was very good business. So many charkas and that handloom was sold in the shops because everyone was purchasing and purchasing. And they were stacked and thrown away some time after. So... Because Mahatma Gandhi asked, everyone did. You see? So he also asked our maṭha people that "Are you spinning a charka?" They said, "No, sir." "Then I am not going." He refused the invitation. Does it mean he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa? He surrendered to charka. That's all. (laughter) And if you say, "Charka is also Kṛṣṇa," oh, there will be no more argument. (laughter) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Avatāra means avatāran. (Hindi) What is the meaning of descent? What is the meaning of descent? Coming down. Coming down. Yes. Guest: In the sense of quality or in the sense of form. Prabhupāda: The sense of form. Because your brain is congested with impersonalism, you cannot understand what is spiritual form. That is your defect. Guest: That is the trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) All hodgepodge things should be... Guest: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore... (Hindi) What is this intellect? It is ignorance. This is not intellect. It is ignorance. You are accepting something wrong. That is ignorance. Ignorance is jñānavān. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is knowledge. This is ignorance. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. And one who does not know Kṛṣṇa, he has no value of his knowledge. Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ [SB 7.5.31]. Knowledge, what is the target of knowledge? To go up to Viṣṇu, to understand. Tad viṣṇuṁ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti surayaḥ. Those who are actually intelligent, they are simply observing the Viṣṇu form. This is Vedic mantra. So unless you reach to that point, your knowledge has no value. It is ignorance. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. So long you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your knowledge is covered still. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Suppose for one who's not completely surrendered, how will he make choices? For example, suppose that there seem to be two different ways of serving Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: He should consult his spiritual master. Devotee: Suppose for example questions are arising in my mind and I think to myself, "Oh, this question is a foolish question, so I shouldn't waste the spiritual master's time." But on the other hand... Prabhupāda: No. Don't speculate. You should immediately refer the matter to your spiritual master. Devotee: Then I would be asking you questions all day long and you'd have no time to do anything else. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No. You are welcome. You are welcome. Devotee: Then how do you... Suppose, for example, last night. I was chanting, and then I thought to myself, "Oh, I'm not concentrating on the chanting any more. Now I should go to sleep." Then how... Prabhupāda: Therefore you are, we have prescribed rules for chanting. You must finish sixteen rounds, then go to sleep, whole day sleeping. You finish that sixteen rounds and sleep whole day. I have no objection. (laughter) Devotee: But then... Prabhupāda: There is no then. Don't talk nonsense. If you are so much addicted to sleeping, you simply chant sixteen rounds and whole day sleep. But don't take food also. (laughter) Don't get up taking prasādam. "Now I have to honor prasādam. Let me eat sumptuous, then again sleep more." Devotee: Is there some order of priority in service then? I mean, sixteen rounds is more important than anything else. And then following that, there's something else. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you cannot do anything else, you simply chant sixteen rounds, take prasādam, and sleep. (laughter) It is special prerogative for you. There is no then. This is, this is order for you. Devotee: In a situation where there's a choice between say chanting and reading. Is chanting a better activity than reading? Prabhupāda: Yes, chanting and reading is the same thing. Devotee: But is one better than the other? Prabhupāda: No better. That I explained. It is absolute. Either you chant or read, the same thing. But you have to fulfill the sixteen rounds. That's it. All right. Let us... (end) Room Conversation -- April 6, 1971, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...therefore they are coming to these things. Process of killing is different because in this age if you simply kill all the pāpīs, then there will be no more existence because everybody is pāpī. If you take sword and kill the pāpīs, then everybody will be finished. Of course, that will be done at the last stage of Kali*-yuga. But here the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is killing the pāpa-bīja. Pāpa-bīja means just like a man is a thief. He knows that "If I steal, according to śāstra, I'll be punished by God. Or there is no god. Then I'll be punished by the state, by the police." He knows that. And he sees also that one man who has committed theft, he is arrested and he is taken by the police. He has seen also. But still he does stealing. He knows either from the state point of view or śāstra point of view, and he sees practically. Still he does it. Why? Pāpa-bīja. In the heart the seed of committing sinful activities is there. So simply by seeing or knowing, it will not be killed. It has to be killed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. He should be purified from the heart he'll give up everything. So this killing process is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So this pāpa-bīja, the seed of sinful activities, is being killed. Otherwise, how people give up all the sinful activities? Because the pāpa-bīja, the original seed, is being killed away. You see practically. *Guest: Divine birth is not... There's no known being, super*-being, here to... Here you find Vietnam War, you find here Bangladesh, you find all suffering and they'll cry all around to God that "He will come and protect us," and there is no protection anywhere from this. Prabhupāda: Well, this kind of protection, crying at the time of danger, this is experienced from past history also. Just like in the last war in Germany. One German friend told me that naturally all the women went to the church for praying, "My Lord, save my husband. Save my brother." Because all men were in the front, only women were left. So they were praying that "My husband may come back. My brother may come back," or "My father may come back," but nobody came back, and they thought, "Oh, there is no God. Our all prayers are useless." They became atheist. Guest: Then that God should come. *Prabhupāda: So God is not your order*-supplier. Guest: They became atheist... *Prabhupāda: God is not your order*-supplier. You create war and pray to the church. Why you create war? Precaution is better than... Unless you Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you will... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. You will encroach upon other's property. That pāpa-bīja has to be killed. Now, after creating war... What is the use? After creating war by your own fault, if you go to the church and pray God, "Please save me," so who wanted you to create this war? They are creating their wars, and they are making God as order-supplier: "Now I have created war. Please stop it." Why? Did you do it by the sanction of God? So they must suffer. How can you make God as your order-supplier? You create something by your own fault and you ask God to come and save you. What is your answer? That is... That is, means, sva-karma-phala-bhuk. You have created something: you must suffer for that. You have created some disease: you must suffer it. Why you violated the law of nature and created your disease? Is it not a fact that when you eat, overeat, and you have got so many troubles in the stomach, then you must suffer for some time. You have created that disease. Guest: But (indistinct) women, children, they are different. (indistinct) After all, they have not done anything. Prabhupāda: Well, when there is war, that thing happens everywhere. But the persons who create war, they are responsible for it. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya. First of all we have to understand. Guest: What can I say? Then only when sādhus are attacked, then only...? *Prabhupāda: No, no. You quoted from Bhagavad*-gītā; *I am replying from Bhagavad*-gītā. You quoted from Bhagavad-gītā, so your answer should be given from the Bhagavad-gītā. You told me that Kṛṣṇa or God comes when there is such and such adharma, so what is adharma, what is dharma, who is sādhu-these things should be understood. But generally, this movement is to create sādhus. So you have to give time. You have to cooperate. This incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa and nāma, Kṛṣṇa's name, is the same. Abhinnatvaṁ nāma-naminoḥ: "There is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa." So you encourage this movement. You will see that there will be no more fighting. Kṛṣṇa has come. Welcome Kṛṣṇa. But if you noncooperate with Kṛṣṇa, then how you'll get happiness? Kṛṣṇa has already come by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You receive Him. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha [Bg. 3.21]. You are all respectable gentlemen. You accept it. Then others will follow. Tat tad evetaro janaḥ. And if leading personalities of the society, they reject it, then how Kṛṣṇa is welcome? How can you expect? (Hindi) Everyone should welcome this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Then actually there will be dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām. Everything will be done. Just like when Kṛṣṇa was personally present, how many received Him? Only the Pāṇḍavas and the gopīs and the Vṛndāvana-līlā is there. Nobody knew Him as Kṛṣṇa. In the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, how many knew Him that He was Kṛṣṇa? But everyone benefited. Everyone benefited. Everyone who died in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra, they got salvation. That is stated in Bhīṣma's teachings. So they got the benefit, but not that everyone understood Kṛṣṇa. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum... [Bg. 9.11]. Many... Even nowadays there are so many scholars... They want swamis. They do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Even nowadays, what to speak of then? Even at the present moment. They are reading Bhagavad-gītā, and they are trying to kill Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is their business, killing... Kaṁsa's business. Kaṁsa was trying killing Kṛṣṇa, always thinking, "how to kill Kṛṣṇa?" So so many Bhagavad-gītā commentators, scholars, their only business is how to drive away Kṛṣṇa from Bhagavad-gītā. That is their... They do not give on the personality of Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I have several times told you. Even scholars like Dr. Rādhā-Krishnan, he says like that, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, person." Why? Why this demonic attitude? How you can get help from Kṛṣṇa? That is... We are discussing now, daivī-sampāt and āsuri-sampāt. Āsuri-sampāt means to kill Kṛṣṇa. That's all, to wipe out Kṛṣṇa from Bhagavad-gītā and bring something else. Six hundred and sixty-four editions of Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. Prasāda. (end) Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow Prabhupāda: Modern sociology is targeting the state or the people as the owner of a certain state, but our Vedic conception is īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ: [Īśo mantra 1] "Everything is owned by Īśa, the Supreme Controller." Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: "What is given by Him, allotted to you, you enjoy that." Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam: "But we not encroach upon others' property." This is *Īśopaniṣad*, *Vedas*. And the same idea is explained in different *Purāṇas*. So the *Vedas* can give you... The other day I was reading in the, that paper, Moscow News, there was a congress, Communist congress, and the president declared that "We are ready to get others' experience to improve." So I think the Vedic concept of socialism or communism will much improve the idea of communism. Just like we are thinking in terms of human beings, the commu..., socialistic state, that "Nobody should starve. Everyone must have his food." And in the Vedic conception of gṛhastha, householder, it is recommended there that a householder shall see that even a lizard living in the room or even a snake living in that house should not starve. They should be also given food. And what to speak of others? The gṛhastha, before taking his lunch, he is recommended to stand on the road and declare that "If anybody is still hungry, please come. Food is ready." Then, if there is no response, then the proprietor of the household life, he takes his lunch. In this way there are so many good concept about this socialistic idea of communism. So I thought that these ideas might have been distributed to some of your thoughtful men. Therefore I was anxious to speak with you. *Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, you know, what is interesting... As it is here in our country, with our great interest in the history of old, old god, from this point of view our institute translated into Russian and published many, I may say, literary monuments of great Indian culture. I will have a pleasure to present you a copy of a booklet which was written here by me and my colleagues. It's account of Soviet studies of India. And here there is chapter, chapter second, "Studies of Ancient Indian Texts in the U.S.S.R..." You'll be interested to discover, we published not all but some, some in exceptions, Purāṇas. We published most of them, then some parts of Rāmāyaṇa, eight volumes in Russian, Mahābhārata... We have also second edition of Mahābhārata, translated by different people. Kabukare Artha-śāstra(?) also was translated in full and published. Manu*-smṛti also translated in full and published with Sanskrit commentaries. And such a great interest... I think that all these publications was sold in a week. Now quite completely out of stock, this... It was impossible to get them in book market after month, such a great interest among reading people here in Moscow and the U.S.S.R. towards ancient Indian culture. And from this point of view we published, I must say, a lot of things, a lot of things. *Prabhupāda: Now, amongst these Purāṇas, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is called the Mahā-purāṇa. *Prof. Kotovsky: Mahā*-purāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have translated in English the full, with the original Sanskrit text, its transliteration, an English equivalent for each word, then translation, and then purport, explanation of the verse. In this way there are 18,000's of verses in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. And the ācāryas, the great saintly sages who are the preachers of this Bhāgavatam throughout India, their opinion is that it is the ripened fruit of the Vedic desire tree. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ idam [SB 1.1.3]. And it is accepted by all, I mean, Indian scholars, and especially Lord Caitanya, He preached this Bhāgavata. So we have got that, complete in English translation. If you want to see some of them, we can show you. Prof. Kotovsky: It seems to me that in the Moscow and Leningrad libraries we have nearly all major texts of ancient Indian culture, beginning from *Vedas*, original text in Sanskrit. For instance, we have in Lenin Library nearly six or eight editions of... Prabhupāda: (Aside:) You have not brought any books? Eh? *Prof. Kotovsky: ...Manu*-smṛti. Prabhupāda: You have not brought any books? Bhāgavata? Prof. Kotovsky: Editions is there. Especially in Leningrad, you know, in Leningrad we have... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Kotovsky: ...about, Leningrad branch, Leningrad branch of our institute*-because institute was in Petorussia(?), founded in Leningrad-so in Leningrad now we have now a branch of our institute dealing mainly... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...with the history of Asiatic culture. We have a million...(Aside:) Thank you very much. Here is a sample account of our book. You will find here some account of what has been translated and what else is being done in the history of Indian philosophy, and now with this Indian philosophy, history of Indian religion, and now with this Indian..., what is Hinduism now, just now in India also. It is very simple account of... Prabhupāda: Hinduism is a very complex term. (laughs) Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes, Hinduism. It is not all... It is really... To my understanding it is not religion from European point of view. It is a really a way of life... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...religion, Indian, a way of philosophy, a way of life, a religion, everything... Prabhupāda: No, this Hinduism, Hindu, this word, is not a Sanskrit word. It is given by the Mohammedans. You know there is a river, Indus, which is..., Sanskrit name is Sindhu. Sindhu. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: These Mohammedans, they pronounce "S" as "H." "Hindus," "Hindus." Instead of "Sindus," they made it "Hindus." So Hindu is a term which is not found in the Sanskrit dictionary. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But it has come into use. Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra-these four varṇas*-and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama. Prof. Kotovsky: Varnāśrama. *Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā-perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā-there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ [Bg. 4.13]. It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India-everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma. [break] So have you seen this little, how we are translating this? You can see little. Original śloka, its transliteration, then its English equivalent, then translation, then purport, each and every verse is being done like that, whole Bhāgavatam Purāṇa. Prof. Kotovsky: But you know what is interesting to... It is the opinion of some European and old, old Russian scholars, this varṇāśrama system... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old sūtras, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society. And there is an opinion that this varṇāśrama system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... [break]...human estimations. (laughs) As many brains, as many estimations... Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. Prof. Kotovsky: ...about the duration of this period because unfortunately the old classic India we have not so much information. *Prabhupāda: But so far... So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad*-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions? Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama*-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation. Prof. Kotovsky: According to so many... You have just told that in any society there are four divisions, but the case is not so easy to distinguish. For instance, one can group, one can group, group together, different social classes and professional groups into four divisions in any society. There's no difficulty. Only difficulty, for instance, in socialist society of our country and a socialist society how can you distinguish productive group and workers? Prabhupāda: Just like you belong to the intelligent class of men. Prof. Kotovsky: Intelligent, yes, so... Prabhupāda: So this is a division. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, intelligent class, for instance, brāhmaṇas, if you can put together also with intelligentsia under the brāhmaṇas... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Then administrative staff... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...everywhere. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya. Prof. Kotovsky: From top to... From top to collective farm, for instance, is kṣatriyas. But who would be here vaiśya and who śūdra? That is the difficulty because all others will workers, workers, anywhere, factory workers, collective farm workers and so on. So from this point of view... Prabhupāda: From this point of view... Prof. Kotovsky: ...there is a great distinction, in my opinion, between socialist society and all societies preceding socialist because in a modern western society you can group all social professions, classes, for instance, practically, very conditionally, you know, at least you can, the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, kṣatriyas... Excuse me... Then this vaiśya, this productive class, is owners... Prabhupāda: That is... Prof. Kotovsky: ...of the means of production... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...these factory owners, for instance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: And the śūdras are workers, menial workers. But here you have no vaiśyas from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them kṣatriyas. And then śūdras, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class. *Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required*-for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state-doesn't matter-unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly. Prof. Kotovsky: Generally it seems to me that this old varṇāśrama system to some extent practiced the nature of division of labor in ancient society. So now division of labor among people in any society is much more complicated and sophisticated. So it would be very... Prabhupāda: Not complicated. Prof. Kotovsky: ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because... Prabhupāda: The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a brāhmaṇa, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be brāhmaṇa, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as brāhmaṇa. Therefore the Indian social order has disrupted. But our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are picking up from everywhere brāhmaṇas, everywhere, because the world needs the brain of a brāhmaṇa. Just like here, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, although he was a monarch, he had a body of learned sages and brāhmaṇas to consult, advisory body. It is not that the monarchs were independent. In the history it is found that some of the monarchs were not in order. They were dethroned by the brahminical advisory committee. Although the brāhmaṇas, they did not take part in politics, but they would give advice to the monarch how to, I mean to say, execute the royal function. Just like not, not very old, very, say, about... What is the age of, I mean to say, Asoka? Say about thousands of years ago. Prof. Kotovsky: As we call from our... In our terminology we call, in ancient and medieval India... Prabhupāda: Med... Yes. In medieval India. Prof. Kotovsky: ...and old and feudal India, you are right, this was very often. And from brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa, from brāhmaṇas the major part of height is(?) religious stuff (?) (rigid stock) in religious department(?). Even Mogul emperors, there were brāhmaṇas who advised modern Mogul emperors... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...in administration... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...and such like. *Prabhupāda: Our predecessor ācārya, Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was finance minister in the Mohammedan government. He was. When he resigned, the Nawab was not very satisfied, that "I cannot relieve you because you are my right hand man. If you resign all of a sudden in this way, then I shall arrest you." There is a long history. So that's a fact. The brāhmaṇas were kept. So the advisory committee of the king... Now, as I was going to speak, Candragupta, Candragupta, just the lastest Hindu king, Candragupta... Candragupta is the age of Alexander the Great because at that time, during Candragupta's..., little before Candragupta, Alexander the Great from Greece, they went to India and conquered some portion. So this Candragupta, when he became emperor, he had his prime minister, Canakya. Perhaps you heard this name, Canak... Ca*-na-kya. Prof. Kotovsky: Canakya. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was a great politician, brāhmaṇa. And under whose name in New Delhi all the foreign embassies, they are flocked together. Yes. It is called Canakya Purī. Prof. Kotovsky: Hm hm. Canakya Purī, yes, I know. *Prabhupāda: So this Canakya Paṇḍita was a great politician and brāhmaṇa. And as brāhmaṇa, he was vastly learned. He has got some moral instruction. They're very valuable, still going on. In India school children are taught. So this Canakya Paṇḍita, although he was prime minister, he maintained his brahminical spirit. He was not accepting any salary, yes, because for brāhmaṇas to accept salary, it is understood that he becomes a dog. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata. He can advise, but he cannot accept. So he was living in a cottage, but he was prime minister. So this brahminical culture, the brahminical brain, is the standard of Vedic civilization. Just like Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti... You do not know. You cannot trace out the history, when Manu-smṛti was written. But Manu-smṛti is considered so perfect that it is the Hindu law. The Hindus are governed by Manu-smṛti. There was no need of passing daily a new law by the legislative assembly to adjust this social order. You see? The law given by Manu was so perfect that it can be applicable for all the time. This is perfect. Tri-kāla-jñāḥ. The word is there, tri-kāla-jñāḥ, past, present, future. *Prof. Kotovsky: But... I am sorry to interrupt you, but originally, to my knowledge, original Indian society, when, in the second half of Indian society, when in Calcutta by order of British administration was codified, so*-called, you know, remember, "Jantu Law," they called, a big digest of Hindu law, there was a lot of change... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...called in. Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufactured another... *Prof. Kotovsky: And this, the actual Hindu law which was used by Hindus, they're quite different from original Manu*-smṛti. *Prabhupāda: No, they have now made changes. Just like our late Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. He made some Hindu code. He introduced in that Hindu code the right of divorcing husband and wife. But these were not in Manu*-saṁhitā. And, of course, they are changing. If you like, you can change. But the social order also not exactly the same as it was before. Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: And so many things. So they're changing. But before this modern age the whole Hindu society was being governed by Manu*-smṛti. Manu-smṛti, yeah. Prof. Kotovsky: In all periods in India... *Prabhupāda: Manu*-smṛti. Now they are changing so many. They... Strictly speaking, the modern Hindus, they are not strictly according to the Hindu scripture. Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: No. They are not... So our point is, we are not going to bring back the old type of Hindu society. It is not that. Our... Prof. Kotovsky: It is impossible. *Prabhupāda: It is impossible. Our idea is that best ideas from the original idea. Just like in the Bhāgavata there is a description of communistic idea, and it is being described to Mahārāja Yudhisthira. So if there is something good, good experience, why it should not be adopted? That is our point of view. And besides that, in the modern civilization they are missing one point: the aim of human life, scientifically. The aim of human life is self*-realization, ātmā-tattvam. It is said, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ yāvan na jijñāsa ātmā-tattvam. Unless the human society comes to the point of self-realization, whatever they are doing, they are being defeated, parābhava. I think you know this word, parābhava. Parābhava. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. So actually it is happening so. The modern society, human society, there is advancement, economic advancement, so many things, advancement. Still, in the matter of keeping peace and tranquility there is fight, individually, socially, politically, nationally. So if we think very cool-headed, then in spite of so much improvement in so many branches of knowledge, we are keeping the same mentality of quarreling. That is also visible in lower animal society. So our conclusion, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that this body, human body, it is not meant for working very hard for sense gratification. In the modern civilization the ultimate goal, aim, is sense gratification. That's all. Beyond that, they do not know anything more. They do not know what is next life. There is no department of knowledge or science, scientific department, to study what is there after life, after finishing this body. That is a great, I mean to say, department of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Dehe. Deha means this body. So there is a dehinaḥ who owns the body, dehi. So dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The dehi, the owner of the body, is within, and the body's changing from one form to another. The body of a child, baby, a certain type of form, it changes into another type of form when he's child, another type when boy, another type when he's young, another type, he's old. This is going on, but the owner of the body existing. Similarly, when this body will be completely changed, another body he will accept. So people do not understand this. As we are accepting different body even in this present life from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood... That's a fact. Everyone knows it. I was a child, but that childhood body is no more. I have got a different body. Similarly, what is the difficulty to understand: when this body will be no more, I'll have to accept another body? It is great science. Prof. Kotovsky: As you know, there is two ultimate, two quite, I may say, opposite approaches to this problem. One approach is slightly different by different religions but in the same time, any religion recognizes in such or such form the change... Prabhupāda: Take place. Prof. Kotovsky: Change of place of a spirit. Prabhupāda: Transmigration. Prof. Kotovsky: Called transmigration of spirit, etc. As in Christian religion and in Buddhism and Hindu religion... Prabhupāda: No, I'm not talking of religion, belief. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: I'm talking of science and philosophy. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is... Prof. Kotovsky: If we can... So science and philosophy. But another... Prabhupāda: One religion may accept. One may... That is not our purpose. We are talking on the point of that if the owner of the body is permanent in spite of different change of the body, then what is the difficulty to understand that when this body will be changed, the owner of the body will have another body? Prof. Kotovsky: But another approach is that there is no separate own..., there is no separate..., no two phenomena, owner of the body and body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: The body and owner of the body is the same. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Kotovsky: When body dies, the owner also dies. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Kotovsky: There is no separate... Prabhupāda: That... Why? Why there is no department of knowledge in university to study this fact scientifically? That is my proposition. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So that means they are lacking. It may be as you say, or it may be as I say, but there must be a department of knowledge, what is the... Now, recently one cardiologist, a doctor, he has accepted that there is soul, in Montreal and Toronto. I had some correspondence with him. So he is strongly in belief that there is soul. So that is another point of view, but we accept knowledge from authority. Authority. Just like this statement is given by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the authority by all the ācāryas, in Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is studied amongst the scholarly circle and philosophical circle still, all over the world. And this statement is given by Kṛṣṇa: Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So suppose we accept such statement without any argument. That is the way of Vedic understanding. Vedic understanding means you have to accept whatever is stated in the *Vedas* without any argument. Prof. Kotovsky: So forget about *Vedas*. Our approach is we don't believe in anything without argument. We can believe only on anything based on argument. Prabhupāda: Yes, that... Prof. Kotovsky: Here is the basic... Prabhupāda: No, no, that is allowed. Prof. Kotovsky: ...projecting (?). *Prabhupāda: That is allowed. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34], paripraśnena sevayā.Paripraṣna, argument, is allowed, but not with a challenging spirit. With a spirit to rightly understand. Praṇipātena paripraśnena. That... Argument is not denied. But so far Vedic statements are there, they are infallible, infallible, and the followers of the Vedas, they accept in that way. For example, just like cow dung. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is the stool of an animal. Now, the Vedic statement there is: "As soon as you touch the stool of any animal, you are impure. You have to purify yourself by taking bath." Even in your own stool... According to Hindu system, if you go to evacuate, after coming you have to take bath. Prof. Kotovsky: This is quite intact with modern medicine knowledge... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: ...that you must clean yourself. Prabhupāda: Now... Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: But another place it is stated that "Cow dung, although it is the stool of an animal, it is pure." Even if you apply in an impure place, you become purified. Now, this is superficially contradicting. In one place it is said that "The stool of an animal is impure. As soon as you touch, you have to be purified," and another place it is said that "Cow dung is pure." So according to our knowledge, it is contradictory. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Prabhupāda: But those who are followers of the *Vedas*, they are accepting. Is it not, cow dung, pure? Cow dung pure, it is not accepted by the followers of *Vedas*? Guest: That is. Prabhupāda: And if you analyze chemically, you'll find the cow dung contains all antiseptic properties. Prof. Kotovsky: This I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know, but there is a... Prof. Kotovsky: I have to test. This I do not know, but... Guest: Yes, one must try to realize it... Prabhupāda: Yes, that... That... One Dr. Ghosh, professor of medical college, Lal Mohan Ghosh, he... I was medically connected in my previous life. So that Lal Mohan Ghosh analyzed it, and, it is his statement, it is full of, I mean to say, antiseptic properties. So Vedic statements, even sometimes you find it is contradictory, but if you analyze scrutinizingly, you find it is correct. Prof. Kotovsky: But maybe... *Prabhupāda: There may be some exceptions, but, I mean to say, just like the cow dung is stool*-this is an exception-but why this exception is accepted, that if you scientifically examine, analyze, you find it is correct? Prof. Kotovsky: That is due to analyze. That's right. That's from common sense point of view. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, another, another instance is there. Just like conchshell. Conchshell is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic instruction, if you touch the bone of an animal, you become impure. You have to take bath. You become impure. But this conchshell is kept in the deity room because it's accepted as pure by the Vedas. So my point is that we accept Vedic laws in such a way, without argument, accept because it is stated in the Vedas, and that is the principle followed by scholars. If you can substantiate your statement by quoting from the Vedas, then it is accepted. You do not require to substantiate in other ways if you prove by Vedic quotation. Śruti*-pramāṇa. It is called śruti-pramāṇa. There are different kinds of pramāṇa, evidences. Just like in the legal court if you can give quotation from the law books, your statement is accepted, similarly, all statements which you give, if they are supported by śruti-pramāṇa... I think you know. The Vedas are known as Śrutis. Prof. Kotovsky: Hm hm. *Prabhupāda: Śruti*-smṛti-purāṇadi-pāñcarātriki-vidhiṁ vina [Brs. 1.2.101]. Anysystem we accept, it must be supported by the evidences of śruti-smṛti-purāṇadi-pāñcarātriki. Aikāntikī harer bhaktir utpātāyai... Anything which is not supported by śruti-smṛti... Just like Manu-smṛti. This is Smṛti. And Vedas are Śruti. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇadi pāñcarātriki-vi... [Brs. 1.2.101], aikāntikī harer bhaktir utpātāyaiva kalpate. Which is not evidence, which is not true by these pramāṇas, then it is disturbance. That is... Guest: But I mean to say one thing is, like in *Vedas*, whatever is written could have been proved like in a scientific way, today... Suppose there is a lab which is scientific. Whatever is said by that lab, that "This is truth," accepted without going to argue into the propriety of it... Suppose you have a scientific knowledge shop or a place, and if this workshop or this scientific institution states, "This is not good. This is not good," a general body accepts, take it for granted, "Yes, scientific body has said so. It is understood. It's..." Prof. Kotovsky: Hm. Yes. Prabhupāda: Personally he hasn't got to examine, himself. He takes the statement of an authority and believes him. Guest: Common person, a common man. *Prabhupāda: So Vedic authorities, authoritative statement, are accepted by the ācāryas. Just like India is governed by the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, and Śaṅkarācārya. They accept in that, and the followers accept them. The benefit is that whether cow dung is pure or impure, I do not waste my time, but because it is stated in the Vedas, I take it, so I save my time. Śruti*-pramāṇa. In that way there are different statements in the Vedas for sociology and politics and anything because Vedas means knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Vetti veda vido jñāne. Vid-dhātu, when it is used for knowledge, it is called Veda. Guest: But today, I think, the scientific knowledge people will not accept all this, what you are saying only. They would perhaps like to try it once more, and perhaps, after going through the process of examination of theirs, they accept it if it is true. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, well correct. As I have already said our approach, the approach of people today, new era of knowledge everywhere in the world... Guest: Try once more. Prof. Kotovsky: Try once more. You are right. And also nobody would believe in anything without argument. Prabhupāda: No, arguments are allowed. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, arguments. Nobody would believe because it was written in this or other script. Evidence, evidence and evidence has to be given to believe. And may I put one question to you? Have you many branches of your society everywhere? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Where is your main center, and where are the branches? Prabhupāda: Main center... Prof. Kotovsky: Of Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. *Prabhupāda: Of course, I have got about fifty*-five branches. *Prof. Kotovsky: Fifty*-five. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I have made my main center in Los Angeles. Prof. Kotovsky: Los Angeles? Prabhupāda: Los Angeles. Prof. Kotovsky: Because I brought a letter from western Germany, so I had an idea that is probably... Prabhupāda: No, that is a... There is a branch. Prof. Kotovsky: A branch. Prabhupāda: Germany branch, Kṛṣṇa dāsa. There is a branch. But my headquarter is in Los Angeles. And now, since I came to India, I am trying to make my headquarter in Māyāpur. That's the place, the birthsite, of Lord Caitanya. We have purchased land there. Prof. Kotovsky: In Māyāpur? Prabhupāda: Māyāpur. You have heard the name? Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, yes. Māyāpur is there. Prabhupāda: You have been in India? Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, six or seven times. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Prof. Kotovsky: I very there, to like it (indistinct). Prabhupāda: So you have been in Māyāpur, Lord Caitanya's birthsite? Prof. Kotovsky: No, Māyāpur... It's also called Māyāpuram. Prabhupāda: Māyāpuram, it is... That is in Madras side. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Mylapuram. Prof. Kotovsky: There's a Mylapuram, yes. Prabhupāda: Mylapuram. That is Madras city. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So where generally you stayed in India? Prof. Kotovsky: Myself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, I was run away in many places, about, in Delhi, in Delhi, in Rajastan, in Gujarat, Maharashtra, Bengal, Bihar... Prabhupāda: In Bengal where you stayed ? Prof. Kotovsky: In Bengal? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: I was in Calcutta, Shantiniketan... Prabhupāda: Shantiniketan. Prof. Kotovsky: ...Shantiniketan and in some town in 24 Parganas, in different small townships and villages also. Prabhupāda: Yes. I see. Prof. Kotovsky: Bengal. And by origin you are from...? Prabhupāda: Calcutta. Prof. Kotovsky: Calcutta. Ah, Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. My birth place is in Calcutta, yes. Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. Yes, unfortunately I haven't been to North Bengal. You have just visited Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Yes, Calcutta, Bombay and several places, Gorakhpur. Gorakhpur. Prof. Kotovsky: Oh. It's a very difficult situation in... Prabhupāda: Calcutta. Prof. Kotovsky: ...Bengal and Calcutta... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...because of influx of refugees from Bangladesh. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But we had our saṅkīrtana festival for ten days, and people participated very wonderfully. We... Our gathering was not less than thirty thousand people daily, and they are so much interested in hearing about our... Lecture things, we are lecturing from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. We are... Our preaching method is on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So people are responding from every part of the world, especially the American boys. They are especially interested. And England also, and Germany, and France. From here I shall go to Paris. There we have got center. What is the name of that place? Paris? Recently they have taken. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Prabhupāda: Recently they have changed the...? Śyāmasundara: Oh. In some suburb, Fontenay Rose, Fontenay aux Rose. Prof. Kotovsky: Ah, near Paris? Prabhupāda: Yes Prof. Kotovsky: In Fontaine Bleau? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They have taken a whole house, nice house. So our process is very simple. We ask our students to refrain from four prohibitive principles: no illi... Prof. Kotovsky: From? I'm sorry. From? Four? *Prabhupāda: Prohibitive. No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, meat or fish or eggs, no, and no gambling, and no intoxication, including cigarette, tea, coffee. These also we take as intoxicants. So these four principle one has to obey, and let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And by this process only, you'll find, how these boys and girls are improving quickly. Process is very simple. Besides that, we have got books, volumes of books, just like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. I have given them. Throughout all these years I have written so many books. And they have got ample stock for reading, the whole life. We have got four hundred pages', big, big books, about one dozen books: Kṛṣṇa in two parts, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in six parts, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, one part, Nectar of Devotion, one part. In this way I am... And these are... We are publishing every month one chapter, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, with this detailed information, giving a heading like this, "The First Step in God Realization." Here is also. The heading is: "Puruṣa-śukta Continued." Puruṣa-śukta is a Vedic stotram. So we are trying to push this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like in your country there is Lenin consciousness, similarly, it is also a different type of consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is also historical personality as much as Lenin is also historical personality. So His philosophy... Just like you are trying to understand his philosophy, we are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. In this way this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on. Prof. Kotovsky: And have you many participants... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Prof. Kotovsky: ...in these fifty*-five branches? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, more than three thousand, three thousand initiated. And outside admirers, there are many, many. And this means these three thousand who have accepted the principles, just like these boys. So there are fifty*-five branches. In each branch we are maintaining twenty-five to hundred students. So just imagine. Prof. Kotovsky: But does that mean the students, they abstain for normal West European universities their own, all their... How to explain it? Their... For instance, can a normal student from, for instance, from one of the best universities, who is attending lectures in normal way, etc., also be initiated and admitted to your community? Prabhupāda: No, both ways. Both ways. If you want to be initiated, you are welcome. If not, you come. Try to understand our philosophy. Read our books. There are so many books, magazines. And question, answer. Try to understand the philosophy. It is not that all of a sudden a student comes and becomes our disciple, no. They first of all come, associate, try to understand. Then... We do not canvass. When he voluntarily says that "I want to be your..." Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no canvassing. Prof. Kotovsky: No, yes. That's what I thought. But what I am most interested in... For instance, not a student but a young worker or a young son of a farmer, he would abstain from his old life and he would be initiated and join your community into a given center. How he would entertain himself? Prabhupāda: The thing is... I have alre... Prof. Kotovsky: In the sorts of day to day life... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Material life... Prabhupāda: Now, material life, it is... Prof. Kotovsky: Would he be paid to stay in that center? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty*-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya... Do you understand little Bengali? Prof. Kotovsky: No, but... Prabhupāda: As a vibration... Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru hāya. Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become... Prof. Kotovsky: Guru. Prabhupāda: ...the spiritual master. Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. But in generally, by creating brāhmaṇas from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script... Prabhupāda: No, I establish old, old scrip... I establish. Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the *Purāṇas*, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...is to be born inside it... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. No, no, no. Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major... Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry... Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas. *Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: [Bg. 4.13] "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late brāhmaṇas who tried to... *Prabhupāda: No, that, that has killed the Indian culture. You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bhāratavarṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And late, lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bhāratavarṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise this whole... According to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this, this whole planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was named Ilāvṛtavarṣa, but since the Emperor Bhārata ruled over this planet, it is called Bhāratavarṣa from Mahārāja Bhārata. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vedic culture, were existing... Now any religion you take, Christian religion, Mohammedan religion or Buddhist religion, they are, utmost, two thousand, three thousand old, years old. But this Vedic scripture, you cannot trace out where is the beginning, where is the beginning. It is therefore called sanātana, eternal. And this culture is for the whole human society. It is not a departmental religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change. Just like... You try to understand. Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā, He says: Prof. Kotovsky: To some extent you surrender. Prabhupāda: Yes, to, to the full extent. Just like you... Prof. Kotovsky: You are required to surrender to the society, for instance, to the whole people. *Prabhupāda: Yes, just... Whole people or the state or the king or the government, whatever you say*-this surrender must be there. It may be different. Prof. Kotovsky: I'm sorry. Only there's a difficulty. We can't agree that you have surrender to government or surrender to a king. There's a principle difference of surrender to a king, to a person, or surrender to a society. *Prabhupāda: No, that is... That is a change of color only. But the surrender is there. The principle of surrender is there. Either you surrender to monarchy, either you surrender to democracy or aristocracy or, what is called, dictatorship, you have to surrender. That's a fact. That's a fact. Without surrendering, our life is... There is no life. That is not possible. So we are educating persons to surrender to the Supreme wherefrom you get all protection. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], aham tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So surrender is there. Nobody can say, "Now I am not surrendering to anyone." There is not a single person. Difference is where he is surrendering, where he is surrendering. The ultimate surrendering objective is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After surrendering to so many things, birth after birth, when he's actually wise he surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: [Bg. 7.19] "Such kind of mahātmā is very rare." Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. But at the same time, it seems to me that surrender, surrender is to be accompanied with revolt. The history of mankind has proved but by only revolt against some kind of surrender... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...mankind has been developed from medieval age... Like French Revolution, it was revolt against surrender. But this revolt also was surrender itself to the rank and file of the people, their (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: But so it is not enough to put a full stop on surrender. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Kotovsky: Surrender is to be accompanied with revolt against surrender of other... Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the surrender will be full stop when the surrender is to Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Kotovsky: Ah ha ha, yes. Prabhupāda: That is full stop, no more surrendering. Guest: Final surrendering. Prabhupāda: Other surrender you have to change by revolution, but when you come to Kṛṣṇa, then it is sufficient. You are satisfied. Just like... I'll give you one example, that a child is crying, and people changing laps, "Oh, you are crying." It is not stopping. But as soon as the small baby comes to the lap of his mother, he stops: "Yes, full satisfied." Guest: Final satisfaction of... *Prabhupāda: So these changes, this surrendering, will go on in different categories. Actually all the surrenders-sum total is surrender to māyā. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayi mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So this surrender is going on, going on. It is the māyā's, māyāra vaibhava, paraphernalia of māyā, either you surrender to this or to that. But final surrender-mām eva ye prapadyante, māyām etāṁ taranti te*-the final surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then he is happy. Surrender will stay. His process of surrender is there, but this surrender keeps him quite satisfied, transcendental. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. And haven't you come across some hostile attitude to your teaching from orthodox Hindu, from orthodox brāhmaṇas in India itself. Prabhupāda: But rather, we have subdued them. Prof. Kotovsky: Ah, yes. Prabhupāda: Because we are... Any orthodox Hindu may come, but we have got our weapons, Vedic evidences. So nobody has come. But even Christian priest... Even Christian priests in America, they love me. They say that "These boys..., our boys... They are Americans. They are Christians. They are Jews. And these boys are so much after God, and we could not deliver them?" They're admitting. Their fathers, their parents, come to me. They also flatly offer their obeisances and say, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come. You are teaching God consciousness." So on the contrary, I have got reception from other countries. And India also, as you inquired of India, all other sects, they're admitting that before me many hundreds of swamis went there, but they could not convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness a single person. They are admiring that. And so far I am concerned, I don't take any credit, but I am confident that because I am presenting the Vedic knowledge as it is, without any adulteration, it is being effective. That is my contribution. Just like if you have got a right medicine and if you administer to a patient, you must be sure that he'll cure. Prof. Kotovsky: And how many disciples you have in India itself? From three thousand, how many members of your community you have in India itself? Prabhupāda: In India? Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Prabhupāda: And India, there are many Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, hundred thousands, millions. India, there is no question. There is not a single Hindu who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I understand, but this, especially, specifically... *Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava. This is called Vaiṣṇava cult. The Vaiṣṇavas, as far as you know*-you have been in India-there are many millions of Vaiṣṇavas. Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: Many millions of Vaiṣṇavas and... Just like this gentleman. He is a commander of the Air, India Air Lines. So he's not my disciple, but he's a Vaiṣṇava, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, in India millions and trillions there are, Kṛṣṇa conscious persons. And practically there is not a single... Even there are Mohammedan Kṛṣṇa conscious. In Allahabad University there is a Mohammedan professor. He's a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So this is natural. It is said in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is everywhere, in everyone's heart. It has to be awakened only by this process. That's all. It is there in your heart also. It is not that it is foreign to you. It is not that. Everyone's heart, there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By this process we have to awaken that. Śravaṇādi śuddha citte karaye udaya. Udaya. You know this word udaya. Just like sun rises. It is not that sun all of a sudden comes from somewhere. It is there, but it rises in the morning. Similarly, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is everywhere, but some way or other, it is now covered. By this process it is awakened and aroused, by association. Prof. Kotovsky: You came yesterday to Moscow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Have you seen something here in Moscow? Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Kotovsky: No? Not much? Prabhupāda: I am not very much interested for sightseeing. Prof. Kotovsky: But in any case, if you have come, you ought to go somewhere and to see something. Prabhupāda: I'm not... Prof. Kotovsky: 'Cause to stay in a hotel, old style hotel like National, is not interesting. Not many people to see. And you are leaving day after tomorrow? Prabhupāda: That is my program. Day after tomorrow... Prof. Kotovsky: From here you are going to...? Prabhupāda: Day after tomorrow or...? Śyāmasundara: Wednesday. Devotee:: Today is 22nd. We leave 25th, morning. Śyāmasundara: 25th. Devotee: Morning. Prof. Kotovsky: And you are leaving for United States or for Europe? Prabhupāda: Yes, for Europe. Prof. Kotovsky: For Europe. Ah, for Paris. *Prabhupāda: Paris. And we have got two ceremonies, very big ceremonies, in London and San Francisco, Ratha*-yatra, car festival. And, it is estimated, fifty thousand people are going to participate in the ceremony both in London and San Francisco. We are making arrangement, car festival. This car festival is observed in Jagannātha Purī. You have been in Jagannātha Purī? Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: From immemorial time, this festival... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Very, very old... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...Hindu tradition of this car festival. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Huge car. Prabhupāda: Huge car. Prof. Kotovsky: Very well parked(?)... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...that car, very interesting piece of car. Prabhupāda: That has been introduced in the Western countries, in London and San Francisco. And gradually, maybe, we will introduce in other countries also. Prof. Kotovsky: In London among Indian community... Prabhupāda: No, no. Prof. Kotovsky: ...among the different(?) peoples of Indian community. Prabhupāda: This is organized by the Englishmen and the Americans. Indian communities in London and San Francisco, they are trying to become sahib. You know the word sahib? Prof. Kotovsky: (laughs) Westernized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Westernized. Prof. Kotovsky: Modern process of Westernization is going on in the world. But Prof. Srinivas... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...with the very grace (indistinct) of some anthropologists at Delhi University... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Kotovsky: I agree with him that a very interesting... Two processes. The process of Westernization among brāhmaṇa mainly and upper castes and so*-called Sanskritization he calls the process of adopting some brāhmaṇa rituals, etc., by so-called low castes, even untouchables. Very interesting processes in India just now. Prabhupāda: Now one thing... The other day I was speaking to some... Where I was? In Bombay, I think, I was speaking some respectable gentlemen that "Kṛṣṇa says: Prof. Kotovsky: Thank you for taking interest in so many... Unfortunately I am leaving early tomorrow morning, quite early, to the South, and I won't be able to help you, but probably through your embassy you can meet some people from our... Prabhupāda: No, I am not interested. I came to see you especially... Prof. Kotovsky: Some people from Christian Orthodox Church may be interested to have some discussion. Prabhupāda: So if there is some discussion, I am prepared. It is, after all, for the whole human society, and it is being practically appreciated. So if there is possibility, I am, for two days I can meet some gentlemen. I can meet. Prof. Kotovsky: Well, if you can ask Mr. Natarajan from embassy, to perform... Prabhupāda: No, not, not in that way. If some of your assistant does it, then it is all right because, to tell you frankly, so far our Indian government is concerned, they are not very much interested with this movement. Yes. Their program is different. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, of course, Indian government program is more and more secular in general ideology, westernized. Prabhupāda: But of course, people are not very happier. One gentleman... He's in government service. I am speaking, in 19..., sometimes, 1950. He was in statistics department, Mr. Dal(?), Kashmiri gentleman. He was coming to me in Allahabad. He told me that "I went... I go to the villages, and the villagers say, 'Bābuji, angrej ko bahut (indistinct)?' " That was his statement. Guest: People... Prof. Kotovsky: Yeah, because every..., there are some kind of people in some administrative departments who... Prabhupāda: No, the difficulty is... *Prof. Kotovsky: ...are both masters(?) and ex*-British officers. Prabhupāda: ... the difficulty, that India is nowhere. They are trying to imitate, Westernize, but they are hundred years back. From materialistic point of view, technological point of view, they are hundred years back. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, that's right, but what to do for India? Prabhupāda: No. That not... Prof. Kotovsky: To improve the condition of life, to be Westernized is the major problem. Prabhupāda: That... But there is one thing that I am experiencing. India's the spiritual asset, if that is distributed, that will increase India's (indistinct). That is my... Because everywhere I go, still people adore India's spiritual culture. They are after India. And if they are properly distributed, the treasurehouse of Indian spiritual knowledge, then at least people outside India, they'll think that "We are getting something from India." Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, you are right in this sense to my mind that the Indian cultural heritage is to be made known everywhere. That's right. But from the..., in the same time, in what way this would benefit Indian training masters(?) themselves? Because they are sitting in India... Prabhupāda: No, India... Prof. Kotovsky: ...and they have nothing from spreading of Indian cultural heritage and etc. over the world. Indian villagers have to have fertilizers, tractors, etc... Prabhupāda: We do not object to that. There is no objection. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I don't think that you object. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Kotovsky: But at the same time, something has to be done in India itself. In what line, if you... One may call it Westernization from this introduction of technical revolution in all spheres of Indian life, in agriculture, industry, etc... Prof. Kotovsky: But at the same time, the final goal of any consciousness is to change society... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: ...to make a better society. That... Prabhupāda: That is automatically... Prof. Kotovsky: I am not very so happy to hear that your ultimate goal is not to disturb society as such because in modern society there are many things to be changed... Prabhupāda: That... Prof. Kotovsky: ...through some consciousness. Prabhupāda: That preliminary changes... Just like we prohibit, "Don't take intoxicants." Guest: To change... Not to change culture. Intoxication is not primarily (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So if he becomes, if he takes to these processes, then automatically... Guest: Transformation(indistinct) will take place automatically. *Prabhupāda: ...his whole life is changed. Yes. Because these four things-illicit sex life, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling*-they are very great impediments for social improvement. Guest: And that will automatically make his life simpler because a person who is not indulging in illicit sex life or intoxication and other things has to live a comparatively simpler life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Kotovsky: That's right. One will live much simpler life, agreed. But at the same time, would it change some complex things...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. oh, yes. Guest: No, no, it won't change the complex for simple reason that a person who's not indulging in this one and he's conscious, he'll be also concious to work hard competitively when he is quite sure that he cannot rob somebody if he wants his food, and he can't rob it. Prof. Kotovsky: But if you would, will have many, even many followers, how far this adaption of Kṛṣṇa consciousness by many American boys would affect the politics of their attitude, for instance, to such a bearing problem of America as Vietnam War? Guest: Correct. They'll never be the one who will ever advocate any war because they know this war itself is a wrong thing. Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say, "Avoid war." But unnecessary war is avoided. Just like Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to fight. It was necessary. It was necessary. Guest: To get rid of extra evil. *Prabhupāda: It was necessary. So nothing is avoided, but everything is utilized for proper purpose. Nothing is rejected. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe. This is fact, that Kṛṣṇa never advocated that "Let there be stop of war." No. When there is necessity, absolute necessity, there may be war but for their good purpose, not by the whims of the politicians, no. Prof. Kotovsky: Hm hm. That's right. So... Prabhupāda: So if you can arrange some program, it is all right. There are... It is all right. Śyāmasundara: Is there any possibility Swamiji could lecture at the institute itself in the next day or two? Prof. Kotovsky: I don't think because, you know, now it is vacation time. [break] Prabhupāda: "...Vedic Concept of Communism," "Knowledge by Authorized Tradition," and what was the other? Śyāmasundara: "Scientific Values of..." Prabhupāda: "Scientific Classless Society." This subject matter I wanted... Prof. Kotovsky: Have you put into writing these three subjects somewhere? Prabhupāda: I asked... Because I could not contact him, therefore I asked the ambassador. But unfortunately they said that "We did not receive any letter like that." So you can note down if you like. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, it is interesting to read also your text of your lectures. But it is not here? It is...? Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: No, it is *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. No? No, what is this? Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the Topmost Yoga System. Śyāmasundara: See, the Swamiji is only going to be here two more days, so if there's any possibility, people can take advantage to have him speak in public or in groups. Do you think it's possible? Prof. Kotovsky: It's... It's... I can't help because I am leaving tomorrow very early for the South, and I shall be here only on the 1st of July. Yes. So from this point it will be difficult, yes. Probably... My advice would be through an ambassador you can come in contact with this, our religious organization. That would be very interesting to have some lecture in group, lecture in group, and some discussion of all this. That would be... That would be very possible, a little. So he can come back if... I would say tomorrow, but I can't manage it myself, but..., as I am leaving at six, leaving, plane is leaving at 8:15 tomorrow morning. Prabhupāda: You mean to say that some ambassador's men should see you. Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, it seems to me that your ambassador's men can come in contact with special, our religious organizations and can organize for you both meetings and conferences. There's no difficulty for some men. That would be interesting. Prabhupāda: So you can say. We shall arrange. Prof. Kotovsky: Hm hm. That you can. That you can... (end) Darçana -- June 28, 1971, San Francisco (sounds of devotees entering, offering obeisances, chanting japa) Prabhupāda: Jayānanda, how are you? So you are married now? Eh? So where is your marriage presentation? Jayānanda: Pardon? Prabhupāda: When you are not married, you gave me five thousand dollars. Now you are married, you must give me now ten thousand, double. Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct) Where is your brother? Makhanlal: I think he is in London. Prabhupāda: What he is doing now? *Makhanlal: Building the Ratha*-yātrā carts. Prabhupāda: Ohh. Makhanlal: For the festival. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you are Nara*-nārāyaṇa's brother. (devotees enter and pay obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa, come on. Nara-nārāyaṇa is very nice boy. Everything is all right? Where is your center? Devotee (1): Tucson. Prabhupāda: Where? Devotee (2): Tucson, Arizona. Prabhupāda: (more devotees enter) Come on. How is Govinda dāsī? Devotee (3): She is improving. *Prabhupāda: Anyone shall (indistinct). (more devotees enter) Come on. Śyāmasundara inaugurated this Ratha*-yātrā here. You know? I advised him to perform Ratha-yātrā on a motorcar, and that was the first Ratha-yātrā. Then gradually it came to cart, now it is three. It is very nice. We are improving. More improve, more and more. Your prasādam this year, I think it is not sufficiently distributed. Why? Makhanlal: Not sufficient amount, you mean? Prabhupāda: Eh? Makhanlal: Not sufficient menu? Prabhupāda: Yes. Previous year... Anyone? Everyone you have got? All right. So this is the difference. I have been in Moscow. So there is... I couldn't find this. I could not eat fruit. Now your country, Kṛṣṇa has given so nice, so nice flowers, and so nice Vaiṣṇavas. And that country is very proud of advancing, but there is no fruit, there is no flower, there is no Vaiṣṇava, and there is no freedom. And this is the... They are proud. You see? "We are advanced." This is the... There is a story, one worshiper of Durgā... In Bengal, they worship Durgā Mātā. So it is a story, the Durgā Mātā, the Goddess Durgā is asking the devotee, "My dear boy, you are happy?" "Yes, mother, I am very happy. Simply two things wanting." "What is this?" "I have no food, I have no clothing." Just see. This is story, just try to understand, that "I am happy, but two things wanting: no food, no clothing." Is that happiness? No food, no clothing. Similarly, this Russian country, they are very much proud of advancement, but no food sufficient and no freedom. No food and no freedom, that's all. This is the sum and substance. *So in your country also that position may come. Now in America you are happy. Because the nature is changing, jagat. Jagat means which is changing. So before any further changes come, you spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over your country. You should utilize these fruits and flowers for Kṛṣṇa and be happy. Don't slip down. That is my request. Whatever I could do, I have done. Now it is up to you to spread this movement all over the world. Don't go away. There is some tendency, somebody. Therefore, I ask you, no. This is all nonsense. This is māyā's peeping, "Why you are working so hard for a sentiment, chanting and dancing? Come on, take to service and be happy with your wife and children." This is māyā. This is māyā. I did not ask my students to marry to become a lost child. I wanted to give them some facility, because you cannot do without wife. But now I am seeing that some of them are slipping away. This is not to be done, no. Every one of us as good as sannyāsī because we have sacrificed everything for Kṛṣṇa. Sannyāsī does not mean simply having no wife and children, he's a sannyāsī. No. Nothing to possess except Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsī. One should know that "I will have simply Kṛṣṇa, nothing more." Then he is sannyāsī. This mentality, that "I have nothing to serve, I have nobody to serve except Kṛṣṇa." But if you serve Kṛṣṇa, you will serve everyone. Just like I was teaching this Indian gentleman. The same process. If you pour water on the root of the tree, automatically the branches, the leaves, and the flowers are all served. If you put the foodstuff here, not here, not here, then automatically this is served. Although the foodstuff is here, automatically this is served, this is served, this is served, this is... Everybody is served. This is practical. If you serve Kṛṣṇa, then all service will be included. They are serving humanitarian and so on. Suppose I, I am Indian, I came to your country. Why I came to your country in this old age? That is service. To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's the best service. Without any distinction of caste, creed, country, color. No. Everyone should have Kṛṣṇa. This is the best service. Go everywhere, every part of the world, and give Kṛṣṇa. That is the best service you can do. And actually, they are now feeling, because they are Indians. Even in India, where there are so many devotees of Kṛṣṇa, but when they saw "These American devotees are so nice," thirty thousand people were coming daily. And what was our magic? This man was asking me, "Swamiji, what magic you have got?" I said, "I have got this magic that I don't tell lie. I don't make 'This rascal is God.' God is Kṛṣṇa. That is my magic. I don't bluff people. Here is God. See God, be with God, serve God. That's my business." Why God should be unseen? You see Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa says that "I am taste of the water," while you are drinking water, tasting, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as you see sunshine, moonshine, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." As soon as there is a nice flavor, "Oh, here is Kṛṣṇa." Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau. These are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Seventh Chapter. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Just turn to Seventh Chapter. Somebody come up to this. So it is very important movement. You take it very seriously and spread it. Seventh Chapter. Read it. Viṣṇujana: "O son of Kuntī [Arjuna], I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras. I am the sound in ether." Prabhupāda: Now, who is not drinking water? The taste of water is Kṛṣṇa, so who has not seen Kṛṣṇa? They say, "Can you show me God?" If you don't see God, then who will show you? Here is God. You are drinking water. Here is God, sunshine. Those who cannot see Kṛṣṇa is God... Because to see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality God, it requires many, many thousands of years tapasya to understand Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births, one can understand Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Out of many thousands of men, one may be interested how to make this life perfect. And those who actually attain perfection, out of many thousands of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job, easy job. So one who has understood "Here is Kṛṣṇa with Rādhārāṇī; *let me serve," that position is very exalted position. That is not ordinary position. But one who is unfortunate not to come to that position to understand Kṛṣṇa, for them Kṛṣṇa is giving the prescription you see here. You drink water, the taste, now just think, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." In this way, if you think of Kṛṣṇa in your daily activities, then one day you will be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Actually, Kṛṣṇa is everything because whatever... This table is also Kṛṣṇa because it is a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ mano khaṁ buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. What is the ingredient of this table? Earth, water, air, fire. Kṛṣṇa says, "That is My manifestation of My energy." Just like if the sun-god says, "I am everything of this matter," it is a fact, because through the sunshine everything is coming out. As soon as there is no sunshine, no more trees, no more foliage. Why? It is due to sunshine all these trees are existing. So if I say everything is sunshine, what is the wrong there? Because it is the sun's energy which is maintaining this material world. Similarly, it is Kṛṣṇa's energy that is manifesting everything. So if I say this is Kṛṣṇa, this is a fact. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Although everything is resting in Me, still I am not there." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. The Māyāvādī philosopher says that "If Kṛṣṇa is here, then why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa in the temple?" That is his rascaldom. If Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, why He is not in the temple? But they will be minus, make minus this: "Kṛṣṇa is not in the temple, Kṛṣṇa is only somewhere else, that's all." That is the... Kṛṣṇa says that "I am in the temple, not anywhere else, although everything I am." So these things the foolish rascal people do no understand. Try to make them understand and go on preaching. The sannyāsīs are meant for preaching and the GBC's are meant for managing. In this way do it. Now you give me relief*-I go on writing books, that's all. So Viṣṇujana Mahārāja, your preaching is going on nice? Viṣṇujana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī should be always preaching. Parivrājakācārya. Four stages of sannyāsa: kuṭīcaka, bahūdaka, parivrājaka, and paramahaṁsa. In the beginning... Because according to Vedic civilization everyone has to take sannyāsa at a certain age. So as a matter of routine if he takes sannyāsa... Just like this old man I was asking that "Now you have children grown up, why don't you take sannyāsa?" But he is hesitating. Nobody likes, because sannyāsa life is difficult. So first there is kuṭīcaka means he gives up the connection of the family life, takes sannyāsa officially, but he is not accustomed to maintain himself independently; *therefore, he goes out of the village and makes a cottage and lives there. And the foodstuff, the home supply, that is called kuṭīca. Kuṭī means cottage. Then when he is little practiced, then he says family members that "Don't bring foodstuffs. I shall go to every village man and ask something for my food. I shall depend on them, not on you." That is called bahūdaka. Bahū means many. Not accepting food from one place but from many. Then when he is prac... Because first problem is problem, when he is practiced, "Now Kṛṣṇa is giving us food, so why shall I remain in one place? Let me preach." That is called parivrājakācārya, when he is preaching. Parivrājaka. Parivrājaka means wandering all over. Then when he is experienced, when his preaching is done, he can sit down in one place. At that time, he can chant simply Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. And if he imitates from the very beginning, he will be spoiled, that's all. Because in the beginning, if I take Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it is (indistinct). (laughter) Don't do this. Always be busy. First stage, last stage. When one is paramahaṁsa just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, three hundred thousand times, no eating unless he finishes his chanting. No eating, no sleeping. That is another thing. "I shall eat so much, I shall sleep so much, and I shall do nothing, simply chanting." No. That is not recommended by my Guru Mahārāja. He says that you are cheating people. (Bengali) There is a song written by Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī: "What kind of Vaiṣṇava you are?" (Bengali) "Your chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in a secluded place," (Bengali) "is simply cheating." What do you know what you are chanting? First of all prepare yourself to come to the stage of perfect chanting. This is sevā. Always be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service: how to decorate the temple, how to invite people, giving the feast, write books, distribute books and knowledge. In this way don't sit idly. Always be engaged, always. Just like our Karandhara, he has taken so much responsibility. He is doing. I am very pleased. He is prepared to do the masonry work and building work and distribution of book, accounting. In this way, we shall be always busy. Find out some work. I have no work now. Of course, the sixteen rounds must be chanted hundred percent. Rest time, simply find out where is Kṛṣṇa's work. Why sixteen rounds? It only takes two hours, you have got twenty*-four hours. What you will do twenty-four hours? You cannot sleep more than six hours, seven hours, that's all. So two hours chanting and seven hours sleeping. Sleeping is a very important thing in your country, but reduce it. As much as you reduce sleeping and eating, you will become advanced. *That is the Gosvāmīs, nidrāhāra*-vihāra-vijitau, conquered over sleeping, eating, and mating. Because these three, four things āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithun..., these are material life. The spiritual life means reduction of these things. When it is nil, no more sleeping, no more eating, that is spiritual..., perfection of spiritual life. So we cannot make it nil so long this body is there, but our policy should be like that. Policy should be like that. We shall not eat more, we shall not sleep more, we shall not mate more. Those who are gṛhasthas, they can have sex life only for producing children, that's all, no more. And those who are sannyāsī, brahmacārī, they have no sex life, there is no question of sex life. Sex life is prohibited. But it is a concession for them who cannot live without sex life. That is married life. Otherwise, sex life is not very important thing. Just like there are brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they have no sex life. Therefore, this sannyāsa, to go out of home by force, that means to avoid sex life, sannyāsa. You see? I think those who have got children, they should take sannyāsa now and preach. That is my idea. Not (indistinct) idea, because all the great sages, they waited if they are married. Just like Kapila Muni..., Kardama, Kardama Muni. Kardama Muni, he was a great yogi. So he was thinking of marrying, so Kṛṣṇa sent him good wife, Devahūti, a king's daughter. So he thought, "I was thinking of marrying, so Kṛṣṇa has sent. All right, let me marry." But he made a condition to her father that "I can accept your daughter as my wife so long she has no children. As soon as she has children, I shall go away." So the father agreed, "Whatever you like, you can do. I'm just placing my wife in your custody." So the sannyāsī..., when there is a child of the wife, I think one can accept sannyāsa. But preaching is our most important business. People are suffering for want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So as representative of Kṛṣṇa, it is our duty to enlighten them, and we should accept all kinds of... But there is no difficulty. Where is the difficulty? I think we are living better than anyone in the world. (laughter) Where is the difficulty? Simply we have to be very sincere devotee of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Everything Kṛṣṇa will supply. Everything. So in that position, go on preaching. Don't be tottering. You have taken a great responsibility; go on executing it. Don't fight amongst yourselves for petty things. Go on, advance. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) Now we are going to have a great ceremony in India, Māyāpur. They have got... I have purchased one land. I took contribution 25,000 from Birla. I wanted 100,000, he gave me 25,000. That's all right. So with that money I purchased one land. So it is just to be developed. The foundation stone, cornerstone laying down. In India we require another..., altogether at least one hundred men, Americans. So contribute some men from each and every center. We have got fifty centers..., how many centers now? Viṣṇujana: Seventy, I heard. *Karandhara: Almost sixty, fifty*-eight. *Prabhupāda: So give one man from each center. It doesn't require that he is very advanced. Advancement will be done by training, by practical application in life. If you send from each center one man to India... If you can send more, that's all right. But at least one man. In India we have got many things to do. Because the business in India is important in this respect, that partly due to their subjugation by foreigners, their original culture has been killed. Just like in India, they did not know drinking tea, drinking wine, meat*-eating, illicit sex. They did not know. Even fifty, a hundred years before, they did not know. These Britishers, in order to control them, very silently introduced all these things. I know in our childhood, this drinking of tea was unknown to any family. Meat-eating, there was no question. Just like in my life, I do not know what is meat-eating, do not know womanizing(?) or illicit sex life, because we are trained in that way. So due to foreign domination, they were killed; *and after independence, these rascal leaders, they are killing it: "What is the wrong in meat*-eating? What is the wrong in drinking?" They are canvassing: "Eat chickens, eat eggs,." This is going on. So at the present moment there is great propaganda from the side of the government and others to kill India's original culture. So when Americans go there and preach and they see, "Oh, so nice Vaiṣṇava, so nice devotee and so pure," they will become attracted, because that is their original culture. At heart they want to do that, but by artificial means they are being forced to accept something else. So when they see these foreigners and Americans so... And government is not very favorable of my movement there, because it is natural when the Americans exhibit a nice, pure Vaiṣṇava, they come attracted. Just like Calcutta and Bombay, what was there? The same Deity was and saṅkīrtana was there and I was speaking say for a half an hour. But why these forty thousand, thirty thousand people were coming? They were coming to see, "Oh, how Americans have taken to this philosophy(?)." That is their surprise. They are giving credit only for that purpose. This man also. So there is good chance of preaching in India in this respect. We want some men to preach there. It will be great work. So I think in each center, from each center you can contribute one man, and some of you leaders may go. There are already, organize. People are very much attracted. They are wanting..., giving us money, they want to give us place, there is no scarcity of food, there is no question. But this Immigration Department, they will harass. But we have to manage somehow or other. We shall have to keep always at least 100 men in India. So how to do it? That we will consider and do it. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Now chalk out your plan how to preach nicely all over the world. So Viṣṇujana Maharaja, how many centers? Viṣṇujana: Just two. Prabhupāda: Two, that's all right. You have to do another eight. (laughter) Yes. That's nice. [break] Devotee (1): So do you want to give (indistinct) authorization to take sannyāsa as soon as possible? *Prabhupāda: That I tell you, not immediately. But our main business is preaching. Either do it as a gṛhastha or as sannyāsī, it does not matter. This is only formality. The real work is preaching. Just like Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha and Lord Caitanya was a sannyāsī, but He was taking lesson from Rāmānanda Rāya. This is Caitanya*-līlā. He is a sannyāsī and He is God Himself, He is taking lesson from a grhastha who is His disciple. So the real thing is preaching must go on sincerely. This gṛhastha, vānaprastha, these are material regulative principles. Real life is Kṛṣṇa's service. That we have to do, that's all. So whatever position is suitable for you, you accept. You remain as a gṛhastha, remain as sannyāsī, remain as brahmacārī as it becomes suitable for you, but preach. That is the main business. If you lacking in preaching and become a sannyāsī, what is the use of sannyāsa? Better... A gṛhastha is better. Just like I asked Gaurasundara to go to Hawaii. He was just a boy, but he did. Now there is center, nice. So I'm very glad. So you are also doing that. It doesn't matter whether gṛhastha. Karandhara is gṛhastha. But we have to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is our main criteria. So we have to see in what position I can serve better Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. Otherwise, either gṛhastha or sannyāsī, there's no difference. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, Preaching work is for the guru. So Kṛṣṇa... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says it doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or vānaprastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness and preaches, then he is guru. That's all. So we have to become like that. It doesn't matter what we are, but whether I am preaching nicely. That is required. But still there is some regulative principles like sannyāsī and brahmacārī will be like this, gṛhastha will be like this. That is the external. But the main business is preaching. So you have got good opportunity, you have got good name, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is being appreciated. So live very cautiously and preach very cautiously and seriously, then in this one life you will become successful, go back to home, back to Godhead. One life. You haven't got to wait for another life. If this life we work sincerely, then our business is finished. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is assured by Kṛṣṇa. "After giving up this body, he doesn't come to this material world." Then where does he go? Mām eti, "He comes to Me." This is said by Kṛṣṇa. Why shall we disbelieve? So serve this life very sincerely and go back to Kṛṣṇa immediately. That is intelligence. Why should you wait for another life? We do not know what life we can get. May not be possible. So we should be very responsible to this life in serving Kṛṣṇa. Make yourself successful. Don't waste a single moment. Every moment should be utilized to serve Kṛṣṇa. Always think, how I can serve Kṛṣṇa? The direction is already there. The work is sufficient. If you don't want to do, that is a different thing. There is sufficient work to do. If you cannot do anything, you can go and meet any man and request him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." What is the difficulty? You can request. That your endeavor to request him is your service. He may not chant. But if you request him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa..." If you cannot do anything, if you meet anyone in the street and say "Please... (end) Room Conversation -- June 29, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Some time must be taken, but unlimited time, unlimited expenditure, that's not good. Ten percent. You produce books. Take ten percent. You may have more than 1,500. You may have more than that. They were to send me one card. There are no letters from them? Karandhara: No. That's all that came, Prabhupāda. There were some more checks. I sent some to London. I sent two packages to London, two, two things to London. [break] Prabhupāda: So anyway, I was very much anxious to hear about Chidananda. So he has written me. He is not very bad. Karandhara: Well, he was in the hospital, and he got into a fight with the guard, I guess, and they arrested him for fighting and put him in jail for six months. Prabhupāda: Fighting? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: But he is weak. With whom he'll fight? Karandhara: Yes. It was actually very... We have a lawyer working on it to get a suspended sentence. We've got a lawyer who is trying to get him a suspended sentence because he was sick and he..., they had him taking drugs and he was weak and he had been in the hospital for four months. Why they should put him in jail? He just got a little irritable. Śyāmasundara: They mocked him. I think they mocked him for having this and finally he couldn't take any more, and he probably hit the guard, so they threw him in jail for six months. Karandhara: And in jail they won't give him anything to eat except... They won't give him a special diet, so all he can eat is just a little bit of vegetable. They have... On a plate they give him mostly meat and a little vegetable. They won't give him any extra vegetables. Prabhupāda: Yes? Where the jail is? Śyāmasundara: Which jail is it? Karandhara: County jail, Los Angeles County Jail. Prabhupāda: So we cannot send our prasāda there? Karandhara: No. They won't let anything in. You can't even send books there. They won't let him wear his beads. They won't let him have his beads or anything, or his sacred thread. They took it all away from him. Śyāmasundara: Can we go visit him? Karandhara: We can visit, yes. Visiting hours on Saturdays and Sundays. I went there the Saturday before last, before I came. Prabhupāda: So how is he here? Karandhara: Well, he's doing all right. He says he chants and he prays. Prabhupāda: Well, what can be done? Karandhara: We're trying to see the minister there and get some books in to him. If the minister will allow it, we can give him books. Otherwise they won't let him have any books. Prabhupāda: So you see or else why this poor fellow should be given unnecessary trouble. What is this? Huh? Dayānanda: Cardamom seed. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: What is the price of a closet? Karandhara: A closet? How big, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not very big. Karandhara: Maybe forty dollars. Prabhupāda: Steel? Karandhara: Oh, steel. Probably more than forty. Like a locker? A locker like this or a closet like this? Prabhupāda: Closet. Karandhara: Closet. Probably sixty or seventy dollars. Prabhupāda: I don't think it is much. Karandhara: We can get it. Six feet high? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: A wardrobe for clothes. Devotee: Like a chefferon(?) Karandhara: Made out of steel instead of wood? Prabhupāda: Steel is cheaper? Karandhara: No, steel is more. Wood is cheaper. Prabhupāda: So steel is, I think, nice. Karandhara: Okay. We'll look for one. Prabhupāda: And one stove. Karandhara: A small stove? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Two burners? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Okay. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Television Interview -- July 29, 1971, Gainesville Interviewer: As confirmed by all the Vedic scriptures and by the great sages in the disciplic succession, He has a body made of eternity, bliss, and all knowledge. God has infinite forms and expansions. But of all His forms, His original form, His transcendental form, is as a cowherd boy. A form which He reveals only to His most confidential devotees. So go the teachings of Kṛṣṇa as laid down in the Vedic literature. And of the sages in the disciplic succession, which I mentioned, one is our guest for this conversation today. He is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, foremost teacher in the West of the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, which, moreover, he teaches not only by word, but by example. He came to this country in 1965 on orders of his spiritual master. As a Kṛṣṇa disciple, he is the present human exponent of a line of succession going back five hundred years to the appearance in India of Lord Caitanya, and beyond that, to a time five thousand years ago when Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself was on this planet and His words were recorded. Welcome, sir. What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that every living being, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has got many expansion. That is called personal expansion and separated expansion. So separated expansions we are, we living entities. But although we are very intimately connected with Kṛṣṇa, somehow or other we are now separated by contact of material nature. So we have practically forgotten that we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Actually that is the fact. And because... Just like a rich man's son. Somehow or other, he has forgotten his father, and he's loitering in the street as a poor man. But actually that is not his position. He has forgotten simply. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to invoke that original consciousness that he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Why he should remain in this material world and suffer the threefold miseries? So we want to revive that original consciousness. The original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a man born of a lord's family, his title should be the lord's family. But unfortunately, forgetting his own home, he is accepting some menial title. So our whole Vedic literature is meant for that purpose, to revive his original consciousness. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Interviewer: You came, sir, to this country in 1965, as I said, on instructions or orders given you by your spiritual master. By the way, who was your spiritual master. Prabhupāda: My spiritual master was Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Paramahaṁsa Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Prabhupāda. Interviewer: Now in this line of succession that we were talking about earlier, this disciplic line of succession which goes way back, all the way back to Kṛṣṇa Himself, right, was your spiritual master the previous one before you? Prabhupāda: Yes. The disciplic succession is coming from Kṛṣṇa since 5,000 years. Interviewer: Is your spiritual master still alive? Prabhupāda: No. He has passed away in 1936. Interviewer: So you are at this particular time then the head in the world of this movement? Would that be correct? Prabhupāda: I have got many other Godbrothers, but I was particularly ordered to do this from the very beginning. So I am trying to please my spiritual master. That's all. Interviewer: Now you were sent to this country, to the United States of America. This is your territory. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: Hm. No. My territory, what he said, that "You go and speak this philosophy to the English knowing public." Interviewer: To the English speaking world. Prabhupāda: Yes. And especially the Western world. Yes. He told me like that. Interviewer: When you came, sir, to this country about 15, 16 years ago and started... Prabhupāda: No, no, not 15, 16 years. Interviewer: Five, six years ago. I beg your pardon. To this part of the world, you did not come to a part of the world where religion was lacking as such, you know. In the United States of America we have many religions, and I think people in this country like to believe, in great majority, that they are religious people, people who believe in God, who devote themselves to some form of religious expression. And I wonder what your thinking was. What do you think that you could add to the already living religious expression in this country by coming here and adding your own philosophy to it? Prabhupāda: Yes. When I first came to your country I was guest of an Indian friend at Butler. Interviewer: In Pennsylvania. Prabhupāda: Pennsylvania. Yes. So although it was a small county, I was very much engladdened there were so many churches. Interviewer: So many churches. Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many churches. And I spoke in many of the churches there. My host arranged for that. So it was not with that purpose, that I came here to defeat some religious process. That was not my purpose. Our mission is, Lord Caitanya's mission is, to teach everyone how to love God, that's all. Interviewer: But in what way, sir, may I ask, in what way did you think, and do you think right now, that the teaching of the love of God which you are doing, is different and perhaps better than the teachings of the love of God which already were being conducted in this country and have been conducted in the Western world for centuries? *Prabhupāda: That is fact. Because we are following the footsteps of Lord Caitanya. He is considered... He's accepted by us-according to the authority of Vedic literature*-He is personally Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Which Lord is that? Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. Interviewer: Oh yes. He is the one who came back five hundred years ago to India? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So he is Kṛṣṇa Himself, and He is teaching how to love Kṛṣṇa. Therfore His process is most authorized. Just like you are the expert in this establishment. If somebody is doing something, if you personally teach him, "Do like this," that is very authorized. So God consciousness, God Himself is teaching. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is God. He is speaking about Himself. And at last He says, "Just surrender unto Me. I take charge of you." But people misunderstand. So Lord Caitanya*-Kṛṣṇa again came as Lord Caitanya to teach people how to surrender. And because we are following the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, the method is so sublime that even foreigners who never knew Kṛṣṇa, they are surrendering. The method is so potent. So that was my purpose. We don't say that "This religion is better than this religion," or, "My process is better." We want to see by the result. In the Sanskrit there is a word, phalena paricīyate. A thing is judged by the result. Interviewer: A thing is just...? Prabhupāda: By the result. Interviewer: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: You can say, I can say my method is very nice. You can say your method is very nice, but we have to judge by the result. That is... Bhāgavata says that that process of religion is very good following which one becomes a lover of God. Interviewer: Yes. But of course, you know, your religion is not the only one which teaches this particular precept. Prabhupāda: That I am explaining, that it is not the only one. There may be many. But it is practically effective. Interviewer: Now let's say, in the part of the world where, if I'm understanding your philosophy and your history correctly, in the part of the world where this particular philosophy and this particular belief originated, which is in India, in the Eastern part of the world, at least as we look at it. Is it successful there? Do you have a large following over there? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Recently I was in India. I held two meetings continued for ten days everywhere, and 20 to 30 thousand people were attending daily. So India's position is that they are naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious, but at the present moment by the so*-called leaders, they want to replace this Kṛṣṇa consciousness into material consciousness. Interviewer: Is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness belief or philosophy compatible with the Hindu religion which... Prabhupāda: With any religion. Interviewer: Beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Any religion. Because God is one. It is the science of God. The "two plus two equal to four," it is understood by everyone. It is not that it is to be understood by the Christian, not by the Hindus. "Two plus two equal to four" is a fact for everyone. Similarly God is fact for everyone. Now how to love God. This is the only process. That is. Interviewer: Now do you claim then that your way of loving God is the way to love God? Prabhupāda: Yes. At least for this age. Interviewer: For this age? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Interviewer: You meant for Kali*-yuga? For the time that we live in right now? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the method is authorized. Kṛṣṇa prescribes this. Kṛṣṇa Himself as Lord Caitanya, He says that this is the only method for self*-realization or for God realization or to learn how to love God. He says. Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore it is authorized. And it is practically happening. Otherwise, these boys and girls, they are foreigners. They never knew Kṛṣṇa. Now I have got sixty centers and each center, they are on the average hundred devotees and they have dedicated their life. How it is happening unless it is authorized? Interviewer: Well, you know they say they never knew Kṛṣṇa, and you are, of course right. But different peoples name their Gods in different ways. You name your God Kṛṣṇa. In the Western world, many, many people name their God Jesus, Jesus Christ. There are other peoples in different parts of the world who have different names for the Gods which they pray to. Prabhupāda: Yes. that's all right. We say in that connection that if you have got a name which is actually referring to God, that will also do. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. So according to Vedic literature, kṛṣṇaś tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the... He has got many names. Thousands and millions of names. This is the original name. So Caitanya says not that you have to chant Kṛṣṇa, but if you have got actually a name for God, you can chant that. We are not asking you that you chant Kṛṣṇa. If you have got actually a name for God, then you can chant that. We are requesting that you chant God's holy name. Interviewer: But before... When you came here... Now you came here in the middle sixties, less than a decade ago. What was it? This is what I'm trying to find out from you. What was the motivating force behind your coming to the United States? Prabhupāda: That is already explained. That is already explained. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that this propaganda should be made all over the world and they will accept. So my Guru Mahārāja said that "You go and try to do this." So I came with this purpose. And it is happening. Interviewer: There must have been an element, though, of dissatisfaction then on your part, with the way God was being... Godhead was being professed in this part of the world before you came. Otherwise there would have been no sense in you coming here. Prabhupāda: Not this part. Every part. Every part of the world, practically everyone... There is very little interest in God. They have more interest in dog. Interviewer: You are in general, then, trying to increase the interest in God. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only interest we must have in human life. Interviewer: And you are not particularly interested in what particular name this God has. Prabhupāda: No. Our purpose, mission, is that people may become God conscious. And the process is in this age by chanting the holy name of God. If you have got any name for God which is actually name of God, then you'll be successful by chanting that name. Interviewer: The chanting of Kṛṣṇa's name, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, seems to play a very important role in the profession of your religious belief. Right? In fact, I think I will ask you and some of your followers who are sitting here with us tonight a little bit later to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: That probably would be a proper ending to this particular program. However, I'm still wondering, you know, about some of the aspects. In reading a little bit... I have not read much, of course, but in reading a little bit about your beliefs and your writings, your magazines, your publications... Prabhupāda: I may correct here that it is not my belief. Interviewer: Well, as you interpret it in your writings. Let me put it that way. It seems to me, sir, that there is a very high emphasis placed on the relationship between the individual and God. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Interviewer: Much more so than upon the... Prabhupāda: That is for everyone. Interviewer: Yes but more emphasis on that relationship than on the relationship between one individual and another individual. Am I right in that? Prabhupāda: No. We have to establish first of all our lost relationship with God. You see? Then we can understand what is the relationship between one individual to another. If the central point is missing, then there is practically no relationship. Just like you are American. Another is American. Both of you, you feel American nationally because the center is America. So unless you understand God, you cannot understand what I am, neither I can understand what you are. So we have to first of all reestablish our lost relationship with God; then we can establish, talk of universal brotherhood. Otherwise there will be discrimination. Just like in your country, or any country, the national... National means a man born in that land. Is it not? But they do not take the animals as national. Why they have no right to become national? That is imperfect knowledge. There is no God consciousness. Therefore they think only the man born in this land is national, not others. Interviewer: Yes. That is not necessarily based on the religious principles, of course, what you are talking about. Prabhupāda: No, that is a philosophical principle. Religion without philosophy is sentiment. Interviewer: Don't you think there are very good reasons for the existence of these rules and regulations in this respect? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rules and regulations must be established on philosophy. Otherwise it is sentiment, defective. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They should be combined, philosophy and religion. Then it will be perfect. Interviewer: I think that in this part of the world, in the Western world, at least, as much as I am aware of it, we do place a good deal of emphasis on religion and... Prabhupāda: Based on philosophy. Interviewer: Well, on religion... What I would like to highlight, what I would like to emphasize is that we place a good deal of emphasis on religion in the ways it gets one man to deal with another man. The ethic of religion. Now... Prabhupāda: No. Our point is not that. Interviewer: In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Prabhupāda: No, no. Our... We must clear. We are not concerned how one man deals with another man. Our point... Interviewer: As a part of your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Prabhupāda: No, no. Interviewer: This is not important? Prabhupāda: No. This is not important. Because we know as soon as one understands how to deal with God, he'll automatically deal with other men very nicely. Interviewer: But you know... Let's take the Christian religion for example. Prabhupāda: No, I do not wish... Interviewer: You know the ten commandments for example, there is a heavy emphasis in the ten commandments on the relationships between one human being and another. "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal." That sort of thing. Prabhupāda: But I say that Jesus Christ never said, he never meant, "Thou shall not kill," means only human being. Where is that evidence? Jesus Christ never said "Thou shall not kill means it means only human being." Thou shall not kill any animal. Interviewer: Any life. Prabhupāda: Any life. That is religion. Interviewer: It has never been interpreted that way. Prabhupāda: But you have interpreted different way, but he said "Thou shall not kill." He never said "Thou shall not kill amongst human being." Why do you interpret in that way? Interviewer: How would I recognize a true follower of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by his behavior? What would his traits be? What would his outward expressions be? Prabhupāda: Yes. His behavior, he's a perfect gentleman. That's all. You cannot find any fault in him. That is perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are prohibited not to eat meat. Interviewer: Not to eat meat? Prabhupāda: No. They are prohibited from illicit sex life. They are prohibited to intoxication. They do not smoke even, what to speak of other intoxications. And they are prohibited not to indulge in gambling. So if they can observe these four rules and regulations, they become perfect men. Simply. Interviewer: Or women I presume. Prabhupāda: Woman or man. Anyone. Interviewer: Men or women. There is place for women in the religion too isn't...? *Prabhupāda: Woman and man have got the same right. Just like we are getting married boys and girls. They're following the same principles. The same principles. So these are the four pillars of perfect life. And if we indulge in these things, illicit sex life, meat*-eating, and intoxication, and gambling, then they become the four pillars of sinful life. And If we take them away, then they become, the prohibited portion becomes the pillars of perfect life. Interviewer: Now I would like to ask you one more question and I would like to ask you to end the program by chanting your mantra of Hare Kṛṣṇa. One more question, though. In the six years that you have been in this country, in the United States, have you been encouraged or discouraged? (end) Room Conversation -- July 20, 1971, New York Devotee (1): And here is the... I found the tape, (indistinct) ask you to put it on. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) has come? Devotee (1): Yes, (indistinct) has come. Here is the foot pedal (indistinct) and earplug. Is there an outlet here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Devotee (2): There's an outlet there. Devotee (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Join? Devotee (1): Does this desk lamp work all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is two or one? Devotee (1): I think there's one, so that means I'll have to get an adaptor. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): This cord is not reaching well. You think perhaps it would be nice to keep it on the floor? (tapping sound) Not working. Prabhupāda: Oh, there is no bulb. Devotee (1): No bulb. Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you can set it here. I wanted that box covered, then I would have kept here. Devotee (1): All right, I'll (indistinct) cover. Light bulb (indistinct). (devotee enters) Prabhupāda: Yes. Pratyatoṣa. Do you know what is the pratyatoṣa? Prati, pratyatoṣa. Pratyatoṣa: What is the translation, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: He can satisfy everyone. Pratyatoṣa: Haribol. Prabhupāda: Yes. Only Kṛṣṇa consciousness person satisfies everyone, can claim this (indistinct). Pratyatoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Pratyatoṣa: I'd like to give you this. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Get that. *Pratyatoṣa: This here. It's my savings account, and there's a deposit slip in there, eleven hundred and thirty*-three dollars and thirty-four cents, and I would like to present it as a gift. Śyāmasundara: Ātreya Ṛṣi can take care of all this. Prabhupāda: What is this? Pratyatoṣa: It's a withdrawal slip. That's just... That's Ātreya Ṛṣi..., and Ātreya Ṛṣi can take care of the details of getting the money out of the account to do whatever you want with it. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) the amount, you can charge my account (indistinct). Pratyatoṣa: Originally we were planning on... Prabhupāda: That's all, it is all right. Devotee (1): This is a presentation from Mahāpuruṣa. It's a dollar and brāhmaṇa's thread. It's a humble presentation. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee (1): You're not going to be working this immediately? I want to get... Prabhupāda: No, no, if you want to join, join it. Devotee (1): I want to do it nicely, so it's not in your way. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): No, just later on I can do it. Prabhupāda: Why later on? Now. (indistinct) Pratyatoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just wanted to ask you about, I'd like to get you a tape recorder. I wanted to get a real, real nice one. And I was thinking of getting one that has four channels. You could record four channels simultaneously or you could record if you want to one channel at a time. Prabhupāda: Stanberg? Stanberg? Pratyatoṣa: Well, no, it's a Sony, it's a Sony Professional. Devotee (4): Eight track. It has eight track. Pratyatoṣa: It'll work anywhere in the world. Prabhupāda: Oh! Pratyatoṣa: Because the speed is electronically controlled, so you don't have to worry about the current, how many cycles per second. It'll work at different voltages, so it'll work anywhere in the world. And you could record your voice on one channel and karatālas on the other channel and mṛdaṅga on another channel, and you can mix them together at the end. Prabhupāda: It is very big? Pratyatoṣa: Well, I think this one probably might be kind of big. Prabhupāda: Can you carry it? Pratyatoṣa: Oh, sure. Sonys are actually pretty compact. You can tell by the size of the reels. But, see, there's four meters, so you could record four tracks, four channels simultaneously. Prabhupāda: And it's stereo? Pratyatoṣa: Stereo and quadraphonic. *Devotee (1): That means eight..., just like yours, four*-track, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This is eight track. Pratyatoṣa: No, this isn't eight track. Devotee (1): No? Pratyatoṣa: This is eight channel. You can only record in one direction when you use four channels. But you can also use it as a standard stereo and record in both directions. Prabhupāda: First of all this way, then this way. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, you can do that, or else you could use all four tracks at the same time and just record in one direction if you want all four channels. Prabhupāda: There are four microphones? Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, you can have four microphones at the same time. To make good stereo recordings of music, it's nice to have four channels, because then you can mix them together afterwards and you can make it perfect. Prabhupāda: It is Sony? Pratyatoṣa: See, these are really Kṛṣṇa's mercy. They have microphones, these are microphones. They're made in Sweden. They're really about the best line you can get, and they're very inexpensive. Prabhupāda: Why the sound is not... Pratyatoṣa: It's on very low now. This is very low. Prabhupāda: No, it comes one, two. Pratyatoṣa: It's on zero. Prabhupāda: It is zero. Then one it comes. (Sound of Prabhupāda's voice on tape recorder is heard.) Pratyatoṣa: That's all right. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Pratyatoṣa: It goes up to ten. Prabhupāda: I know that. *Pratyatoṣa: So this is what I planned on doing with the money, but then Bhavānanda and the GBC wondered about whether maybe the Book Fund or the around*-the-world trip would have higher priority. So that's why I just wanted to donate the money, so maybe after I'm gṛhastha I could get this for you. Prabhupāda: This money? Devotee (4): Yeah, he wanted to donate this money for a tape recorder. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, but... *Devotee (4): The GBC suggested that he give it just to your Book Fund or else to pay for the around*-the-world tour, to help pay for it. Pratyatoṣa: They thought that might have higher priority than... It's a project, I wanted to set up a library of all of your tapes and make them available to everybody and preserve them, and have them all indexed. Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted a tape recorder. Pratyatoṣa: Do you think this would fit your needs, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted. I wanted to purchase one Stanberg. Pratyatoṣa: Tanberg? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pratyatoṣa: Well, we have a Tanberg here that you can use. I had it in Detroit, remember? It's a very, very good machine, and I'm going to leave it here in New York because I have to go to Minneapolis for some training because of my job. I have a job as a computer programmer, so I have to go there for a while, but I'll be back in New York. But I'm going to show Gadādhara and Candanācārya how to use it so they can use it, and then you can use it during the daytime. It's a really good machine. Prabhupāda: So where is that machine? Pratyatoṣa: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Where is that machine? Pratyatoṣa: That's a Tanberg. Devotee (4): Now it's in the temple. I use it when Your Divine Grace is speaking. Prabhupāda: So where is that machine? Pratyatoṣa: It's in the temple room right now. It's connected to the P.A. system and a microphone. Prabhupāda: So you bring it and we will see. Pratyatoṣa: Okay. I have to leave tonight, but I'll instruct Gadādhara and Candanācārya how to use it while I'm gone. Prabhupāda: Tanberg machine is nice. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, it's a good machine. It's made in Norway. Prabhupāda: And that is not very costly also. Pratyatoṣa: No, I ordered it directly from Norway, saved quite a bit on it. Prabhupāda: What did you pay for it? *Pratyatoṣa: Two hundred and twenty*-five, and the list price at the time was five hundred and fifty. I got this before I came into the movement. Prabhupāda: So it is five hundred and fifty the same machine? *Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, that's what they charged in the United States, five hundred fifty, and I ordered it for two hundred and twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Pratyatoṣa: In Norway I got it, and then there's duty. Prabhupāda: The same machine? Pratyatoṣa: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: Then bring it, it is working. Then we can utilize this one for other things. Pratyatoṣa: OK, fine. But maybe someday then I can get this, do you think? Prabhupāda: Hm? Pratyatoṣa: Do you think someday we could use that machine? Prabhupāda: I do not know, but I have got experience Tanberg is very nice. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, they're very reliable. They're reliable machines. And also, my job is computer programming, and I think that computers could be used. Prabhupāda: Computer? Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, they could be used in many, many ways in the Society. Like one... I think the most important use it could be put to is for helping in transcribing and editing and composing. A computer can do composing automatically. Prabhupāda: Automatically? Pratyatoṣa: Sure. It's all automatic, because it's actually just a mechanical process, just getting the lines to come out even at the end and everything. Prabhupāda: You can learn that? Devotee (4): I already know computer programming, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (4): I learned it in high school, and I was working as a programmer. Prabhupāda: Then why not take a computer? Pratyatoṣa: Sure. And we can get a terminal. You can buy a computer terminal for about $600. Devotee (4): Oh, really? *Pratyatoṣa: And for $185 a month, we could have forty hours a week of computer time, eight hours a day. And they have courses, this company gives computerized courses that'll teach children how to read and how to do arithmetic through the terminal. And also, it has a fantastic editor. If you type in the text, and any mistakes you make, you can just type in a few instructions with a computer and it'll change them. Then after you get all the text the way you want it, it's stored on a magnetic disk at the computer. And then when you get it perfect*-you can change it a hundred times if you want-but when you get it perfect, then you just have the computer automatically type out the whole thing. Prabhupāda: You know how to do that? Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda, I got A's in that. Pratyatoṣa: These terminals have paper tape punches. You can the punch paper tape and then feed the paper tape into a machine called a photon machine, and you get out a perfectly composed page with... You can have any type size you want, you can have any type of, what do you call it, the face, the typeface, and it'll be perfect for publishing. It'll come right out of that. The whole process is automatic. Devotee (4): Those tapes can be kept, stored, all the tapes. Pratyatoṣa: Sure, they can be kept stored. And then... Oh, also, you get free storage with this for 300,000 characters, that's about 100 pages at least. Devotee (4): This is a wonderful idea, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't know why no one thought of this before. Pratyatoṣa: I'll leave this here, OK? I'll leave this here. Prabhupāda: All right, you read it. Pratyatoṣa: And this tells... This is the basis of the whole language. They have Fortran... Devotee (4): Honeywell machine? Pratyatoṣa: It's Honeywell, yeah. And see, this is educational. Devotee (4): What language...? Could we use Fortran to program this language? Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, there's four languages, there's the... Devotee (4): But what is best for programming Śrīla Prabhupāda's books? Fortran? Pratyatoṣa: No, there's an editor, it's called Edit, you see, and it's designed for editing text. Devotee (4): Similar to Fortran? Pratyatoṣa: Well, no, it's just a special language by itself, but it's real easy to learn. Devotee (4): Easy language? Pratyatoṣa: It's very easy. Devotee (4): See, I was mostly doing Fortran. I'm a little out of practice now. Pratyatoṣa: You could learn this like nothing. This is Edit. But you only have to type in the text once, just a rough, and that's it. No retyping is necessary from start to finish. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is wonderful. Get the books composed in no time, so fast, and paste it up. Pratyatoṣa: Sure. And the composers are available. *Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only that, but no paste*-up is required, because the pages will come out perfect, and it can just be photographed. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, right, the layout is almost eliminated. Composing is completely eliminated, and the editing is so easy and so fast that it'll be... The thing is, you'll be able to get a final copy that's really perfect, because it doesn't matter how many changes you make, it's so easy. Even if there's... You have one word you want to change, and it's just a minor change. Normally you might not want to do it because that means retyping the whole thing. But with this, it's no trouble, because the computer just types it out in no time. Devotee (4): I used to think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, "I wonder when the day is going to come when we're going to be able to use computers in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" and now maybe it's come. Composing can be eliminated, done automatically, and the layout can be done automatically because the pages will come out perfect. When they're typed out, they will come out perfect. Therefore, there is no need of layout. You simply photograph those pages. *Pratyatoṣa: With a photon machine, you can do a whole book. You could have a thousand*-page book done in one night. It would type the whole thing in one night. That's all you'd need is a (indistinct). Devotee (4): Those machines are fantastic. Pratyatoṣa: They're so fast. Devotee (4): They are fantastic. Pratyatoṣa: They turn out a page in a couple of seconds. Devotee (4): Electric brain. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah. Devotee (4): Big electric. Pratyatoṣa: And they're always perfect. There's no variation in the characters or anything like this. Prabhupāda: But as soon as an electronic is a little sick, the whole thing stops. Devotee (4): No, they're reliable machines. These are just... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotee (4): Yeah, that possibility is there. Prabhupāda: The brain goes bad, then it is very difficult to bring it into... Pratyatoṣa: Well, they have maintenance men on the spot all the time. It's very reliable. Prabhupāda: But I moving from one place to another. Pratyatoṣa: Well, they have... This Honeywell system is being combined into a nationwide network so that these computers are available in every major city in the United States right now, and they're going to be eventually all tied together. We can actually communicate with other temples through the system. Devotee (4): Why is Honeywell better than IBM for this? Pratyatoṣa: Well, because they just concentrated on this more. Devotee (4): On this editing program? *Pratyatoṣa: Oh, yeah, for the editing..., for our purposes, this is the best time*-sharing system. I've used almost every one. It's unbelievable. It's so fast, it's so reliable. I used that for months and months and it never... It wasn't..., maybe... I can't even remember a time when the thing wasn't working. It was always working. Devotee (4): So reliable. Prabhupāda: They charge $180 per month? Pratyatoṣa: $185 per month for 40 hours a week. Devotee (4): That means eight hours a day, five hours... Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, that's just a little over a dollar an hour for the computer time, and it's a really... Normally it would be about twelve hundred or thirteen hundred dollars a month, but because... See, there's another thing, you've got to... The time is only between 6:00 p.m. and 2:00 a.m., that's why it's less expensive. But that's a better time actually, because it's after hours and you get a faster response on the computer because there's hardly anybody on it. It's really good. And normally it's... Prabhupāda: What is the whole price? Pratyatoṣa: Well, the terminal would cost $700 for one that handled upper and lower case. You can get 132 characters across. Prabhupāda: $700 altogether? Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, $700... Devotee (4): Is that a rental? Pratyatoṣa: No, that's the purchase price. Rental would be about $85 a month. Devotee (4): In addition to the $185? Pratyatoṣa: In addition to the $185, yes. Devotee (4): Or else to purchase the machine for $700. Pratyatoṣa: But then if you purchase it, you either have to... Prabhupāda: If somebody pays $700 at a time, then? Pratyatoṣa: Well, that's for purchasing it. Then you have to maintain it yourself or else you have to hire somebody else to maintain it for you. But you could just lease it for about $85 a month, and the maintenance and paper and paper tape and supplies... Prabhupāda: You have to purchase for $700, then you have to pay maintenance service. Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, unless you can maintain yourself. I don't think they're too difficult to maintain. Teletype terminals are very reliable. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Maintenance is different. Either you maintain yourself or pay that. Pratyatoṣa: Correct. Devotee (4): The machine is like a typewriter. It's hooked up with a computer... By telephone cables? *Pratyatoṣa: Oh, yeah. You just dial over an ordinary telephone. You can use more than one time*-sharing service on the same terminal just by dialing different numbers. In Washington, D.C., I was using four different computers through the same terminal, just by dialing different numbers. And they can be thousands of miles away, it doesn't matter. In Minneapolis, I'm using a computer that's located in..., near Baltimore, near Washington, D.C. And it's just like... It doesn't matter how far away it is. Prabhupāda: You receive the phone call? Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, just by a phone call. Just by calling a local number, too, because they have lines already set up. Devotee (4): Like you were talking with that big (indistinct). Pratyatoṣa: I was communicating with a karmī friend of mine in Baltimore through the computer system. He was using the same computer. So that's another thing we could do, communications. And we could do a (indistinct)... Prabhupāda: We haven't got much communication with outside. Pratyatoṣa: We could communicate with all the temples through the... If another temple had a terminal on the same computer system, they could communicate, they could share common... Prabhupāda: What is the difference between this machine and that machine? *Pratyatoṣa: This one... This is only two channels, and this one's four channels. This one, the one that's shown, can take the large size professional reels, ten*-and-a-half inch. You can also get one of these with the ten-and-a-half inch, which is really an advantage to be able to use that, that size. Because you can purchase those in cases, professional lots, and then you can put them on smaller reels if you wanted to, just cut the tape for however size the recording is and put it on a smaller reel. Prabhupāda: So first of all you bring this Tanberg, then I shall see. Pratyatoṣa: I'll just leave all this here. (aside:) Take this, this is with the microphone. These are Kona(?) microphones. They're unbelievable, they're so good. You want to keep that? Devotee (4): I just want to see... I want to see the computer. Pratyatoṣa: OK. Devotee (4): (indistinct) Pratyatoṣa: OK. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, actually... Prabhupāda: What is the price of this machine? Pratyatoṣa: I'm not too sure, but it'd probably be about two hundred and fifty, something like that. The numbers usually sort of correspond to the price more or less. Prabhupāda: I found Tanberg better than Sony. Pratyatoṣa: The very expensive Sonys are good. The less expensive Sonys aren't very good because the motors aren't powerful enough. But like that real expensive Sony has three motors, and it's got..., it's all electronically controlled with solenoids, so that there's very few moving parts, and I think it would be a really good machine. Devotee (4): What is this? Pratyatoṣa: That's different from this. That's if you aren't getting this educational package, then you've got to pay all these rates. Some of these rates apply anyway. Devotee (4): All this rate business, you know about it. I just want to look at the program. What is this? Pratyatoṣa: That's a Dolby system for recording with less noise. That's for tape recorders. Devotee (4): Why don't you check that? I'll just keep this (indistinct). What's this? Pratyatoṣa: That's for the computer system. That's courses that are available over the computer. Devotee (4): Over the computer? Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, the computer teaches. Devotee (4): Oh, yeah. Just like these computers, you can learn the language. Pratyatoṣa: This is like a mechanical tutor. Devotee (4): But you can even learn this Edit language over the machine, right? Prabhupāda: Machine teach language? *Pratyatoṣa: There's a language called Teach, so we can write our own programs for teaching. We could write programs to teach Bhagavad*-gītā. We could have all the scriptures on computer programs. (end) Temple Press Conference -- August 5, 1971, London *Prabhupāda: It's Kṛṣṇa's mission to awaken man's original consciousness. At the present moment we have got designated consciousness. I am thinking "I am Indian," you are thinking Englishman, another is thinking American. But actually we are neither American nor Indian nor any that sort of designation. We are part and parcel of God. That is our real identification. If we come to that consciousness, then all the problems of the world will be solved. Now, due to our designated consciousness, we are thinking, "You are different from me, I am different from you," but if we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we shall know that we are one, the same spirit soul, maybe in different dress. That is the explanation given in Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like we are all human beings, gentlemen, ladies. Maybe in different dress, but our aims and objects are the one and the same. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purificatory process. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. To make people free from all designations. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. And in Kṛṣṇa consciousness they become purified. And when they're purified their activities by purified senses make them perfect. That is the ideal perfection of human life. And our process is also very simple. There is no need of becoming a great philosopher, scientist, or thoughtful man. Simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord we can immediately contact with the Lord, because the Lord as the person and His name and His quality are all absolute. So this is a great science. Unfortunately, there is no department of education for this science in any one of the so many universities. So we invite, therefore, all kinds of serious men for the welfare of the human society to understand this great movement and if possible take part in it and cooperate with us. That will solve all the problems of the world. That is the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā. Very authoritative book of knowledge. Most of you may know the name Bhagavad-gītā. So our movement is based on this Bhagavad-gītā, the authorized book of knowledge, and approved by big ācāryas in India, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Lord Caitanya. So you are all responsible representatives of papers. Try to understand this movement and ventilate it as far as possible for the good of the whole human society. That's all. Woman Interviewer: Yes, Your Grace, it seems to many people that there is probably more. There are probably more people in the world now who are seeking some kind of spiritual new light than probably ever before, or at least, there's more evidence of it. And I wonder if you agreed with that, and if so can you tell me why it is? Prabhupāda: Yes, That should be the natural hankering with us. Because we are spirit soul we cannot be happy in material atmosphere. Just like you take out the fish from the water, it cannot be happy on the land, similarly, if we are without spiritual consciousness we can never be happy. So people after advancement of scientific knowledge and economic development, they are not happy. They are becoming hippies. So the cause is that they're in search of spiritual life and this is the proper delivery, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. Woman Interviewer: Thank you. So presumably you would encourage this movement of more people to find a spiritual life. You... Prabhupāda: Yes, unless you take to this movement, you cannot be happy. That's a fact. Therefore we invite everyone to study, to understand this great movement. Woman Interviewer: What worries me slightly is that since the arrival in Britain some while ago of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a lot of... He was the first guru that most people ever heard of, and since then there have been a lot of people and a lot of gurus that have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. And one gets the feeling that sometimes they're not all as genuine as they ought to be, and I wondered whether you feel that it's right that you could perhaps issue a warning to people who are seeking some new spiritual life that they should take care to make sure they have a genuine guru to teach them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Interviewer: Do you feel there's a danger? *Prabhupāda: Of course, to search out guru is very nice. But if you want a cheap guru or if you want to be cheated, then there will be many cheater gurus. But if you are sincere, then you'll have sincere guru. People want to be cheated because they want everything very cheap. But just like we are asking people no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. So people think it is very difficult, it is botheration. And if somebody says, "No, you do. Whatever nonsense you like do. You simply take my mantra," they will like it. So the thing is that they want to be cheated; therefore cheaters come. They don't want to undergo some austerity. Human life is meant for austerity. But they are not prepared to undergo austerity. Suppose some cheaters come. They say, "Oh, no austerity. Whatever you like you do. You simply pay me and I'll give you some particular mantra, and you become God within six months." (Laughter) And that is going on. So you want to be, if people want to be cheated like that, the cheaters will come. Woman Interviewer: So do you think people should beware? Prabhupāda: They should be serious. Woman Interviewer: I mean if someone in all seriousness wishes to find the spiritual life and happens to finish up with the wrong guru, I mean should they beware? Prabhupāda: Yes. But... When ordinary education, to take ordinary education one has to devote so much time, labor, and understand, and if one is going to take spiritual life they must be serious. And how is that, they think that simply by some wonderful mantra within six months they become God? Why they want like that? That is... That means they want to be cheated. Woman Interviewer: And how would one tell that one had a genuine guru because one would be told to give up certain parts of...? Prabhupāda: That of course depends on the person who is really anxious for guru. Just like when you go to the market to purchase some thing, you test it whether it is genuine or not. Similarly, you have to test who is genuine. Woman Interviewer: How can you tell if you don't...? Prabhupāda: That requires little education, a little knowledge. Therefore we are opening so many centers, giving people opportunity to know what is genuine, what is not genuine. Woman Interviewer: How many followers have you got now throughout the world or can you not count...? Prabhupāda: Well, for any genuine thing the followers may be very little, and any rubbish thing, the followers may be many. Woman Interviewer: How many... I meant for the initiated followers, people who have... Prabhupāda: About three thousand we have got. Woman Interviewer: And is it growing all the time? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is growing very slowly. Because we have got so many restrictions. People do not like any restriction. Woman Interviewer: Yes. Where is the following the greatest? It is in America? Prabhupāda: In America, in Europe, and Canada, in Japan, Australia. And India there is millions, there is millions of this cult. Apart from India, in other countries they are small quantity. But in India there are millions and millions. Male Interviewer: Do you think your movement is the only way to come to know God? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: Do you think this movement is the only way to know God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Male Interviewer: So how do you have that assurance? *Prabhupāda: From the authorities, from God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Male Interviewer: But if somebody else was to say that God had told him something else, would you equally believe him? Śyāmasundara: It's not that we don't accept other religious processes. Prabhupāda: No, we believe other process. Just like there are steps. If you want to go to the topmost story, so you go by steps. So some of them have gone fifty steps, some of them have gone hundred steps, but to complete the required steps is 1,000 steps. Male Interviewer: And you've gone up the thousand have you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Interviewer: If any of us here this morning wish to become followers what would we have to give or give up? Prabhupāda: First of all one has to give up illicit sex life. Woman Interviewer: Does that include all sex life or...? Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman Interviewer: What is illicit? Prabhupāda: Illicit sex (is) without marriage, without any relation, sex life, that is illicit sex life. Woman Interviewer: So sex is allowed in marriage, but not outside. Prabhupāda: That is animal sex life. Just as animals, they have no relationship and have sex life. But human society there is restriction. In every country, in every religion there is a system of marriage. So without marriage, sex life is illicit sex life. Woman Interviewer: But sex is allowed within marriage. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Woman Interviewer: And what else would one have to give up for... Prabhupāda: One has to give up all kinds of intoxicants. Woman Interviewer: Is that drugs and spirits? Prabhupāda: Any kind of drug that intoxicates. Śyāmasundara: Even tea and... Prabhupāda: Even tea, cigarette. They are also intoxicants. Woman Interviewer: So that includes alcohol, marijuana, tea. Anything else? Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to give up animal food. All kinds of animal food. Meat, eggs, fish, like that. And one has to give up gambling. Woman Interviewer: Does one have to leave one's family? I think everybody lives in the temple, don't they? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Unless one gives up all these sinful activities one cannot be initiated. Woman Interviewer: So one should give up one's family as well? Prabhupāda: Family? Woman Interviewer: To be a for..., yes. Prabhupāda: Of course, family. We are not concerned with the family, we are concerned with the individual person. If one wants to be initiated in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement he has to give up all these sinful activities. Woman Interviewer: So you give up family as well. But what about... Śyāmasundara: No, no, you don't have to give up one's family. Woman Interviewer: But I mean supposing I wished to become an initiate. Wouldn't I have to come and live here? Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Woman Interviewer: Oh, I could stay at home? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Woman Interviewer: What about work, though? Does one have to give up one's job? Prabhupāda: You have to give up these bad habits and chant these beads, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That's all. Woman Interviewer: Would I have to give any financial support? Prabhupāda: No, that's your voluntary wish. If you give us, that's all right. Otherwise, we don't mind. Woman Interviewer: Sorry, I didn't understand. Prabhupāda: We do not want, depend on anyone's financial contributions. We depend on God, or Kṛṣṇa. Woman Interviewer: So I wouldn't have to give any money at all. Prabhupāda: No. Woman Interviewer: Is this one of the main things that distinguishes a genuine guru from a fake guru? Prabhupāda: Yes. A genuine guru is not a business man. Our... (end) Room Conversation Excerpt -- August 9, 1971, London Prabhupāda: Therefore His teachings, crude, teachings, cannot be now applied to the modern advanced educated people. That was suitable for those people. Now people have advanced in science, in philosophy. Now God consciousness ...and should be presented on the basis of science and philosophy. Otherwise people will not accept. *Guest: There's one philosophical point I would like you to elucidate. I haven't been able to quite understand, certainly the dualistic, incomprehensible... the dualistic*-nondualistic philosophy which sees at the same time Kṛṣṇa, as comprehending all of man, all of the world, everything, within the body, we might say, of Kṛṣṇa, And at the same time however, one sees the world as distinct from Kṛṣṇa, in other words, as māyā, and as illusion. And it is this, the dualistic, I would like to... If you could just explain to me the difference between the... I mean, how this fits in, the monistic or the idea of the unitary view that Kṛṣṇa is everything, all and in all. And then at the same time that the world, there is this world of illusion which is somehow distinct from Kṛṣṇa. Could you just explain this point to me? Prabhupāda: This is very easy to understand. Just like you are recording my speeches in the tape recorder. When you play back it will speak just like I am speaking, but I am not there. Is it not fact? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: It will appear now I am speaking from beyond this world. Somebody's hearing, here somebody's speaking. Again, when the record player will play... (end) Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London Revatīnandana: So their residence place is not very far away, and she was curious. She came over a few days ago to find out more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1) English lady: I've seen a few about the street. Prabhupāda: Where? Guest (1): We live down there, you see, and we've seen them several times in the street singing, and asked them what you're doing, really. Prabhupāda: You can keep it here. It may fall down. No. So do you know something about our movement? Guest (1): I've been told something about it, the other day. *Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We are preaching love of Godhead. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following. We simply want to see that he has love for God. Our bhāgavata*-dharma defines: that is first-class religion following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religion if by following that one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our... Guest (1): So you don't try to convert people from other religions. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): One can be Christian and... Prabhupāda: Anyway. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. Guest (1): Yes. So we're doing the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless. Guest (1): How does he know? Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see, whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there. Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression loving God or loving mammon. Prabhupāda: That says, or... Everyone says different way. Mammon or dog is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: Guest (1): We say Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that "Chant the holy name of God." If you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, Kṛṣṇa. We don't say Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): We see that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is... They are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult, that chant the holy name of God. That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement. "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done? Guest (1): Don't worry about that. Prabhupāda: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse. "No." Guest (1): When you chant, do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things? Prabhupāda: Other things? Guest (1): Well, many things require your concentration. Prabhupāda: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration. Guest (1): You see, two, two things... You can't... Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately. Guest (1): But you can't read or talk to someone. Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught... In our educational system they chant... What is that? That...? (Hindi) Pahara pahara.(?) Indian man: Pahara. Alphabet. A.I.E. Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing they learn. "A,B,C," like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." We did it in our childhood. One boy will chant like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." And we shall repeat. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." So repeating three times, I understand 2 plus 2 equal to 4. Guest (1): Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? Guest (1): It goes deeper and deeper? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart. If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names go to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart. Guest (1): I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer... Prabhupāda: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. It will always remain in your heart. Guest (1): Always going on. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. It remains in the heart. Not only my heart. Others' heart, they also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me. We... Last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka, they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain. Revatīnandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all. Revatīnandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a, almost like japa beads. Show him. Guest (1): You see, here. Revatīnandana: They're almost like japa mālā. Guest (1): We do it in some, together, in the orthodox church. And we take turns doing two hundred. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Guest (1): And... These are for counting. Prabhupāda: That is nice. We also do the same thing. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the wording? Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God..." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Guest (1): It's a little prayer. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Guest (1): And they also pray to the mother of God. Prabhupāda: Sinful? "We are sinful?" You say, "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like? Haṁsadūta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer. Guest (1): And you say it in your own language. Prabhupāda: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good. Guest (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the, by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God? Guest (1): The mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it? *Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of... So... That is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa*-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped, that "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya. "You are the most munificent of all incarnations because You are distributing love of God." Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne. "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer. Guest (1): Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name, and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent. Guest (1): What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different. Guest (1): Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed? Revatīnandana: What will the mind be doing? Haṁsadūta: While chanting. Revatīnandana: What should the mind be doing? Prabhupāda: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is, that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect. Guest (1): It's very difficult to think of God. *Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Guest (1): There's a lot more ...sins than just those four things. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities. Guest (1): If you're irritated with somebody. Prabhupāda: Hm? Revatīnandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin. Prabhupāda: No, that is... Guest (1): Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin. Prabhupāda: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this? Guest (1): Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian... Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh? Haṁsadūta: Animal. Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk, we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life. Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son? Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing. Prabhupāda: (people coming in) Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come... You can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years; *there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the... in Bhagavad*-gītā. (people sitting down) Why? You can come here, this side. Haṁsadūta: You can sit here. *Prabhupāda: Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ [Bg. 7.28]. One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. Devil citing scripture. A devīl cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he says that "Don't hear scriptures from the devīl." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam." If a devīl's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say, "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is devīl or angel. It doesn't matter." No. The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. You cannot bring the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a devīl. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle is āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so-called preaching. That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all conditions, if we, with faith and love we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified. Revatīnandana: That line, jaya sakal vipod bhaktivinod bolen jakhon o nām gāy. Prabhupāda: O nām gāy, yes. Revatīnandana: All obstacles will go away if you chant the holy name. *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā, there are four classes of men who deride at God and four classes of men who approaches God. Guest (1): People find it very difficult today... Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example. Three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained. Guest (1): For people outside. Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now. Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach. Guest (1): Well, you can't preach until you are purified. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, purification will go on. Suppose you are... Just like we are holding, what I... I began this propaganda in the Western countries. I was sitting in a park, Thompkinson's? What is that? Revatīnandana: Thompkins Square. Prabhupāda: Thompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare... For three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically, he started my European movement, he started first. Guest (2) Gentlemen: Have you been harassed in London at all? Prabhupāda: I don't think, but they are Londoners. They know better than me. Devotee: Yes, we have been harassed many times. We have been arrested and left from the prison about twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the night, and then we were far from that place to here. Devotee: When was that? Revatīnandana: The last time was a week ago. (laughs) Guest (2): Would you say that the Americans are generally less tolerant than Londoners to you or more tolerant? Revatīnandana: America or here? Guest (2): Yes. Which is the worse and which is the better? Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think. Devotee: More tolerant. (laughs) America is more tolerant. But they're not arresting now, you see, and wherever they go, they chant freely, but here almost every week we are arrested on the streets and harassed. Guest (2): Is it because possibly because you are less well known over here than in America? Revatīnandana: No. Because a very conservative legal system and obsolete laws, like that. Guest (1): What law can arrest you? Devotee: Well, we fought this out in the court here and the magistrate allowed that we can chant. There is no law who can stop chanting. But the police, authorities, they say, well, "You are obstructing the traffic." And under that we are arrested. Prabhupāda: They can find out anything. Devotee: An excuse. It's an excuse. Revatīnandana: "Blocking the traffic, disturbing the peace..." Haṁsadūta: Anyway, the original purpose of America was to have religious freedom. Therefore they left England. Revatīnandana: There is constitutional guarantee... Haṁsadūta: So they still have some respect for people who are trying to glorify God. Prabhupāda: In American in every court case, we win. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Well, we lost here several times. Devotee: Last, year, when we went to the police authorities for our procession here, and we wanted to make three rathas and the police officer, he was so envious, he said, "No. There is no law, we can put three rathas on the street." We said, "What is the harm? Won't you give us protection?" "So many people will be dying and killed under the ratha. If the ratha is so big and all that. People will be killed." I said, "They are big all over the world. This is for God consciousness." Prabhupāda: So many people are dying by motor accidents, but do they stop motor car? English guest: Do you think the situation will get better in London. Devotee: Yes. Guest (2): You do? Revatīnandana: Wherever there is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa going on, things will get better. Guest (2): Say, if the average London policeman, if he could be convinced to chant. Revatīnandana: Convinced? No. Some of them are less hostile, some of them more hostile, naturally. We can chant on one side of Oxford St., but we cannot chant on the other side of the street because there's two different police departments. It's like that. There is no hard and fast way to figure it out. You just have to try it and see. Devotee: One night at Picadilly Circus we were eight and four were arrested, and four other people, no, they let them go. So I said, "No, I was arrested." (laughter) When they went to the court, Prabhupāda, they got one pound five each... They were altogether eight, and four were arrested. They also doing the same offense. It is same offense. So he said, "All right, let them go." *Guest (2): Can I ask about your rate... about growth? How, can ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy*-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week? Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand. Guest (2): I'm talking about in Britain. Revatīnandana: Same thing. Yes, every few days somebody joins. Guest (2): Can you tell me how many of those actually stay? Haṁsadūta: Oh, 99% stay. Guest (2): And what is the figure likely to be? Five a week, ten a week? Prabhupāda: We don't keep any statistics, but actually the fact is that I started alone; now we are eight thousand. Guest (2): I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that... Haṁsadūta: Five years ago, Prabhupāda, he came to New York with these kartāls, and he began alone by sitting in a park underneath a tree chanting this very same Hare Kṛṣṇa, which you see the boys on Oxford St. chanting. And now there are eight thousand students all over the world, and approximately a hundred centers. At that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't even have a place for himself. But now he has a place in every major city. Guest (2): You used the word "student" here. You're referring to this as... Haṁsadūta: Yes, because it's an education. This is a spiritual education. Guest (2): This doesn't tie up with the figure that I've been given, though, 150. There must be more than that. Haṁsadūta: No, we're talking about around the world. Guest (2): But you would accept there's 150? Haṁsadūta: Yes, in England. Guest (2): No, five years ago. Prabhupāda: In 1966. Haṁsadūta: In 1966. Prabhupāda: No, England we started in 1968. Devotee: That 150 is those who have fully dedicated their life, but there are thousands who are followers and admirers who have not joined here. Prabhupāda: They are admirers. Devotee: They are admirers and they are... there are thousands of... Guest (1): Encouraging people to chant the name of God in their own religion. Revatīnandana: Yes. Guest (1): You don't have to change your religion. Like we are Christians. In the orthodox church, they say that (indistinct) Guest (2): To be a member you don't have to change your religion? Is this a fact? Guest (1): To be a member, here a member here, you do, don't you? Or do you? Revatīnandana: To live in this temple you have to take up fully our principles and take up our activities of preaching work and like that. But to practice these things outside, even in one's own religion, without changing the basis of his belief, he can simply devote himself to God in these ways. And if one is young and not so attached, he can take it up fully. He can take it up in part, or he can take it up... And religious system, there are names of God. You simply chant it. Guest (2): (indistinct) an associate member if you like. Guest (1): I've only just (indistinct) asking about it. Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member... Guest (2): If you're a member, you have to practice the whole thing obviously. [break] Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member of this movement. But some people have forgotten. Our movement is to remind them. Every living being is by nature a servant of God. Now people are forgetting. We want them to remember. We don't care for some difference of technique in worship. We want people to take up the business of chanting the names of God. Prabhupāda: Just as in the same family some of the sons have forgotten father and some of them remember, but both of them member of the same family. Because he has forgotten his father does not mean that he is not son. He still remains. So actually, everyone is a member of God's family. That is our vision. Not only human being, but animals also. We therefore consider animals also brothers. We don't support animal killing. Guest (1): (indistinct) in your four principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: We follow strictly these four principles. Just like this: no animal killing, no eating of animal foodstuff including meat, fish and eggs; don't take any kind of intoxicant, even tea, coffee. Guest (2): You're still on number one? Revatīnandana: No, that's number two. Guest (2): Let me get number one first. No animal killing, yes? Revatīnandana: And no animal slaughter, no taking of animal foodstuffs including meat, fish, or eggs. Guest (2): No animal foodstuff. Guest (1): Not milk. Revatīnandana: Milk we have, surely. We don't have to kill the animal to take the milk. Meat, fish and eggs we don't take. No intoxications of any kind. Guest (2): You're on number two now. Revatīnandana: Number two. No intoxication. That includes even tea, coffee, cigarettes, very strictly. No gambling. Guest (2): You're on three now. Revatīnandana: Number three, no gambling. And number four, no illicit sex life. That means no sex life whatsoever outside of marriage. And in marriage, sex life is to beget children and raise them to love God. So we follow these four principles very strictly. In this way we purify our lives and then we can develop spiritual emotion of love of God. Guest (2): Uh, let's look at the... I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, slaughter and no intoxicants. Revatīnandana: These are four "nos." Guest (2): Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat? Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts, all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs. Guest (2): Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth. Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasādam or Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's mercy. Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it. Guest (2): Have you any view on food that's been (indistinct) insects are killed, insecticide? Sort of thing? Haṁsadūta: No, our point is to get the nicest foodstuff available and prepare it nicely for Kṛṣṇa, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute it. That is the point. Guest (2): I quite appreciate with respect the clause on alcohol. I'm puzzled, though, why anything on cigarettes. I'm puzzled about tea and coffee frankly. Revatīnandana: Stimulants and depressants of all kinds, mild or strong, doesn't make any difference. You're taking a stimulant or a depressant, or a cigarette or a drink of coffee. It will agitate your mind with a chemical. Guest (2): So what can you drink? Revatīnandana: Milk, water, fruit juices, so many things. Haṁsadūta: If you don't get cigarettes, you won't die. If you don't get cigarettes... Guest (2): Oh no, no, I wouldn't question that. Haṁsadūta: That's the point. They are unnecessary, artificial. Guest (1): We're so used to tea and coffee. Guest (2): Gambling I understand. The attitude to sex and so on is really fundamental to the Catholic attitude, isn't it? Guest (1): But does the Catholic church allow tea? Guest (2): I was talking about basic, those who are involved in... Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life. Reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that... Therefore we use our energy in that direction. Guest (1): So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure. Guest (2): Can I ask... Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure. Revatīnandana: She made this observation, that this is not to stop our enjoying, but this is higher enjoyment. Guest (2): When you come into this movement, you come in from on the outside, in the material world and so on. Do you, as some monks do in monasteries, do you give all your wealth, all your possessions, everything, as it were, to the movement? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Why? Revatīnandana: Not necessarily. But generally yes. Because we're coming here to serve Kṛṣṇa and we understand that everything is Kṛṣṇa's. So whatever we come with is automatically Kṛṣṇa's, so we use it in His service. *Prabhupāda: Actually, we don't possess anything. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. What we possess, so*-called possession, that is illegal. Because I cannot possess your property. I can possess your property by stealing. Not by fair dealings. Guest (2): So it's a voluntary thing, really? Guest (1): I can possess it if you give it to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. So that is our philosophy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. Whatever God has given you, you possess. Don't try to possess other's property. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. Everything belongs to God, so whatever God gives me, you enjoy it. I take it. I don't encroach upon other's property. Guest (1): You use your own, responsibly. Prabhupāda: Yes. I should feel grateful. "Oh, God has given me this thing, so whatever utility is there, first of all I must offer to God." God has given me this grain to eat, so I must cook and first of all offer to God, and then I shall eat." This is feeling gratitude, grateful. Guest (1): Would you use, say, cars if it were given you? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: If someone gives us an automobile would we use it? Revatīnandana: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Revatīnandana: Just like this tape recorder. Prabhupāda: Because originally, everything is possession of God. Guest (1): If you had a big house, a rich house. You would use that? Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall turn into temple. Revatīnandana: Immediately. Prabhupāda: Immediately. (laughter) We are searching after. If you can give, it will be very much... Guest (1): To put beautiful things in it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherever we shall go, we cannot go without God. So if we get a palatial house, immediately make a very gorgeous, nice temple, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. That's all. We can utilize anything. Because everything is belonging to God. So as soon as we get something, we utilize it for God. That is our philosophy. Guest (1): Who controls, if one of the members becomes grasping, wants things for himself...? Prabhupāda: No, what... We are therefore teaching. We are therefore teaching. Members are gradually learning how to sacrifice for God. So when he is completely trained up, he knows that nothing belongs to Him. Everything belongs to God. Therefore, whatever he possesses, it must be utilized for God's purposes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. We take it for granted, and that is a fact. Everything belongs to God. God, whatever God has given me for my use, so I must use it, first of all expressing my gratitude to God, "O God, You are so kind that You have given me this. So first of all you taste it. Then I'll eat." This is our philosophy. Guest (1): What about pleasures like listening to music? Prabhupāda: Yes, we chant the glories of God. Guest (1): Could you listen to other peoples' music? Prabhupāda: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu. Chanting and hearing about God, that is music. Guest (1): Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that? Prabhupāda: Which one? Revatīnandana: Beethoven's symphony. He means classical Western music. They make some music. Prabhupāda: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection. Revatīnandana: But there may be no reference to God in it. Prabhupāda: No, then we don't hear. We reject. Guest (1): Inspired by God, given by God. Prabhupāda: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property. But do you like to go to the prisonhouse? We say everything belongs to government. We are not so liberal, that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prisonhouse." Guest (2): I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Guest (1): I take everything is good because it belongs to God, but you do choose, in fact, or you wouldn't choose to waste your time when you should be doing something else. Prabhupāda: But for God's cause we can go. Just like these boys are sometimes arrested and put into jail. That is God's cause. But they are not prepared to go to the jail by pickpocketing. That is not their mission. They are executing God's business and if somebody puts him into jail, "All right. It is God's desire. That's all." Revatīnandana: The point is that there must be direct connection with God. If God's name is there, if God's service is there, if God's form is there, then we are interested. Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe. Everything must be related with God. Guest (1): Well, if you're relaxing, if you need to relax, and you sit and listen to some music, it doesn't say praise God all the time, but in fact is, because it's beautiful. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept anything beautiful without God. Without God, everything is ugly to us. Everything ugly. Guest (1): So you have to bless it by offering it to God first. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Revatīnandana: Just like we have so many beautiful songs and melodies and everything. They're very nice. And we sing these songs. They are glorifying the Lord. And we enjoy like that. Music is there, everything is there, but because it is directly in the devotional service of God, therefore there is this bhakti, there is this devotion there. Devotion to God. Without that, everything becomes void. Tasteless. Guest (2): Can I get one point straight? Is the Beethoven symphony all right provided it is blessed as an object and a work of art. Is it then all right? Or is it not all right because it doesn't use religious themes? Haṁsadūta: Originally, music and art were employed only to glorify the Lord in the scripture and... *Prabhupāda: In Sāma*-veda, Sāma-veda. Haṁsadūta: Gradually, if you study our history, music history, God was left out. Just like you will see landscapes, and there's nothing in there about God. It was left out. But originally the landscape, there was some depiction of the activities of God or His representative. Guest (2): So a Beethoven symphony is not all right. Haṁsadūta: It's not a matter of Beethoven symphony. Art means to glorify God. If God is in the... Just like this picture. There is a mountain, there is sky, but what is the point there? The point is Kṛṣṇa. There's a book, but the point is the spiritual master. Here's a landscape, but the point is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): The original point I'm trying to get at... Haṁsadūta: If there is some music, you must hear something about God's activity. Guest (2): But suppose that was a beautiful landscape on its own, just the landscape, then it's worthless? Revatīnandana: Limited and temporary enjoyment only. Limited and temporary enjoyment. Guest (2): But you accept that the temporary enjoyment is there, would you? Revatīnandana: Yes. And limited and temporary. It's called capala sukha, flickering. *Prabhupāda: Now, even there was no God's picture, one who is God conscious, he can see in the natural scenery presentation, he can see, "Oh, how God is artistic. How he has manufactured this flower, how he has painted, how He has made this tree." So that is higher intelligence. That is higher intelligence. Because without God, there can be nothing existing. So one has to learn how to see God in everything. That is another thing. That is higher status. Yes. But in the lower status of God consciousness one is advised that you should not see anything without God. But in the higher status, there is nothing in the world which is without God. But we should not imitate the higher status of life in the lower status of our position. Otherwise, one who has learned about God, he can see God in this flower. Actually, how God's hand has worked out this nice flower. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā God says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. Just like I am drinking water. In the taste of the water I'll see God. God says, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste of the water." And actually, that taste cannot be created by man. The taste in the water, that is God's gift. So as soon as I taste the water, immediately I should remember, "Oh, here is God." Guest (1): So we believe that the holy spirit empowers artists and composers. And therefore we would say that a symphony was a creation of God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation... In everything there is hand of God. Therefore one who has learned to see everything in connection with God, he sees God everywhere, every moment. (knock) Yes? Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana cchurita [Bs. 5.38]. When one has developed love of God, he sees God everywhere, always. Because everything is creation of God; so he can find out, "Here is my Lord. Here is my Lord. Here is my Lord." That is the highest state of loving God. He cannot see anything without connection of God. Guest (1): It's a matter of attitude who created this (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (1): It's a matter of your attitude. *Prabhupāda: Not attitude. Development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial. But it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her, within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing. It was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Unless Kṛṣṇa was there within. Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. Guest (1): Do you believe you (indistinct) people, if they hear it? If they hear this? Prabhupāda: Yes. As they hear, they became purified, and that dormant consciousness becomes awakened. Yes. Awakened. That chance we are giving. We are chanting and others are hearing. By this process, chanting and hearing, both of us will be benefited, awakening our original God consciousness. Revatīnandana: At the stage of awakening, when you're waking up, when you're becoming cured of the diseased condition, you sometimes have to restrict your diet. Later on, when you are healthy, you can take all kinds of foodstuffs in the proper way. But while you're getting over a disease you have to restrict your diet. Therefore we hear things that are directly concerned with Kṛṣṇa's name, form, activities. Later on, then we'll be able to see God in a flower, God in everywhere. Otherwise we'll see the flower however we enjoy a flower because we're not at that healthy stage. So therefore there are regulations that we follow for curing the disease. That means for a little while we restrict the diet. Then when we're healthy... Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God. They are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he'll put it in the pocket. How... You see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but use is different. Guest (2): What's your view, if I may ask, on, for emotion in, of, an ideal, a Christian ideal and so on through the media. Will you use television and radio to condemn things like racial intolerance and the Vietnam War? Do you believe that you should become involved in these things? Could you issue a statement and say that the movement condemns so and so? Do you believe getting into anything in the world spectrum to comment on things? Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world, there's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination? Do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination? Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems. We take the... Just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain. Guest (1): You go down to the heart of the matter. Devotee: To the root cause. Guest (1): They're only symptoms. Prabhupāda: These are all different symptoms of the society's being materially diseased. Guest (1): Society isn't saved in a month by individuals, (indistinct) the reality in each person. It's more than an example. Devotee: Pour the water to the root cause and in every leaf it goes. Guest (2): So the answer is you do not comment on it? Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. If one is Godless, he cannot have any good qualities. Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. So one doctor who's less intelligent says, "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. Sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says, "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all... There are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is Godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they... With one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail. Guest (2): But you will not comment on the details themselves. Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work. Guest (1): Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment. To say that the whole of mankind is one and we're treating the disease in the human heart (indistinct) You can't do it by an overall (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. (indistinct) Guest (1): We condemn wars but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say, "God, stop this war." Revatīnandana: There's a saying, "charity begins at home." (end) Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London Prabhupāda: Simply we shall sell retail in our saṅkīrtana. Let them sell to the bookstore. We shall not sell a single copy to the bookstore, or wholesaler. We shall simply sell in our saṅkīrtana party. In this way arrange...[break] Śyāmasundara: ...weekend festivals from town to town? Prabhupāda: Town to town. What do you think this idea Huh? Continue engagement. And as many men may join us, we can accommodate them. Every country. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. I got this idea, one king, (indistinct), the grandson of Prthuraya, this Mahārāja Prithu, he performed so many yajñas that on the surface of the earth, there were only kuśa grass scattered. Yajña, they require kuśa grass. Kuśa grass. So all over the world it was simply scattered, after yajñas, I have given my comment in this. Similarly, we shall perform this saṅkīrtana yajña all over the world, town to town, town to town. Now we have got GBC all over the world. Let them organize. What they'll do? Organize yajña after yajña, yajña after yajña. So that as at the present moment even if we go somewhere, are known to: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" They say. The whole world will say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Either jokingly or serious, it doesn't matter. Let them joke, criticize them, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," still they will have the effect. Still they will have it. In the Nṛsiṁha Purāṇa there is an instance that a Mussulman was attacked by, what is called? Boar having... Parivrājakācārya: Tiger? Boar. A wild boar. Prabhupāda: A wild boar. So when the boar attacked him the Musselmans, when they do not like they say, "Haram. Haram." Condemn means haram. So when the boar attacked him he said haram. "Haram!" But it acted, ha rāma, and he got salvation. Do you follow what I say? A Mussulman said, 'ha ram. Ha ram He condemned. It is abominable. That is the meaning of Urdu, haram. But at the time of death, when the boar attacked him, he said, "Haram." So it acted ha rāma. Ha, he rāma. It acted, chanting the name of Rāma, Hare Rāma. He meant something else, but it acted as beneficial as chanting He rāma. So therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, either you chant seriously, or those who are criticizing us, jokingly, the effect will be same. So anyway let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you follow? Even they do not take it seriously, if they imitate, joke, still they'll be benefited . Parivrājakācārya: Should these be straight saṅkīrtana, no... Should these be... Prabhupāda: Well, they... As we install our Deity and chanting, dancing, offering ārati. This interests. Parivrājakācārya: Not electric guitars and all that. Prabhupāda: No, no. Parivrājakācārya: Good. Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Electric guitar, if it is, they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa only, nothing else, then it is all right. But as far as possible, simply mṛdaṅga and kartāl. But if GBC thinks that it attracts more people so they give contribution, that is a different thing. Otherwise there is no need. Parivrājakācārya: I think nothing can attract like mṛdaṅgas and karatālas. Prabhupāda: That is practical, we have seen. Parivrājakācārya: When we put guitars, it waters it down. It doesn't have the same effect. Prabhupāda: All GBC members should organize like that. Then everything will be all right. And sell books. Now you... What is the name? Maṇḍalībhadra, he is slow. So you translate. Haṁsadūta: Okay. Because there are others, they are competent. I have others, they are competent. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Simply you check that they are not writing nonsense. Haṁsadūta: Oh yes. That I can do. Prabhupāda: That's all. And print it and distribute. And another thing. If you can print yourself, it is all right, But if you want printing cost from the general book fund, then whatever you sell you deposit there. You deposit and take, deposit and take, deposit and take. Then when, even if you have no money you'll get money. And then you deposit. But if you spend it, then you cannot expect from the general book fund. Haṁsadūta: No, no. I'm already doing that with them. Prabhupāda: Jaya. *Haṁsadūta: Whatever they print for me, or whatever Bali prints for me, I pay him and I pay 100% mark*-up so that there can be some money. Prabhupāda: So in this way organize and distribute literature, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana yajña. Then our mission will be successful. Accha, here, they are coming, so we shall make a committee, London building fund committee. In that committee, Mr. Arnold and his wife... [break] ...nicely and organize responsibly. So that can be done provided they have got their own men. Why he's not training the Africans? He should train. Parivrājakācārya: He hasn't got very many Africans. I think only about two. Prabhupāda: Then suspend that installation. Parivrājakācārya: They haven't been making any devotees there. Prabhupāda: Then there is no... [break] ...and if we conquer our eating then we can conquer our sleeping also. Nidrāhāra vihārakādi vijitau **. [break] Don't make fuss. If you are serious, then it is all right. Otherwise, you are young men. If you again give up sannyāsa or you try to marry, it will be scandalous for our society. Don't do that. If you are steady... But so far report is you are not very steady. Do you admit this or not? Kulaśekhara: Yes. Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Then how you can take sannyāsa? It is a very great responsibility. [break] There is no need of taking sannyāsa. If you are sincere in preaching you can do in this dress. Where is the harm? Simply by changing, taking a rod, you'll not become God immediately. You have to work, steadily. What is there in sannyāsa? Do you mean to say taking a rod one becomes sannyāsa? Sannyāsa means you must be sacrificing everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma*-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī [Bg. 6.1]. Sa sannyāsī, he's sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti. You went to Israel but again came back. Why? What was the difficulty? Kulaśekhara: Well, there's no activity there Prabhupāda. I got attacked on the street. I got very sick and I was attacked on the street when I was on saṅkīrtana. Prabhupāda: Do you like to go to Africa? It is warm country. Kulaśekhara: Yes Prabhupāda. That would be nice. *Prabhupāda: So you can go. You can go. And you know Deity... [break] ...and if it is sufficiently left, then she doesn't require further. Otherwise add something. But she'll take after the husband. My mother was doing. Yes. The remnants of foodstuff left by the husband will be taken by the wife. That means if the husband does not eat, she'll not eat. So those things are now dream only. (laughs) Impossible. Just like small child, If he follows the father, catching the hand of the father, she is always safe, he is always safe. Now your so*-called independence has spoiled the social life. You know he was married. Where she is now? Kulaśekhara: Oh, she left. We haven't seen her since she left. I don't know where she is. Three years ago. When she left, Śrīla Prabhupāda, she took some drugs and... *Prabhupāda: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pāpi tāpi yata chilo harināme uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so*-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for māyā, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you. Śyāmasundara: Materialistic life is so bothersome. All the time some trouble. Prabhupāda: Just like in hog civilization. That's all. They are thinking that "We are very happy eating stool." But others know that what kind of happiness he is enjoying. Similarly these rascal karmis, materialists, they are thinking by... What is called? Kini...What is called? Naked skirt? Devotees: Miniskirt? Prabhupāda: Miniskirt, trying to show the private part and people will be attracted and she will be happy. This is regular prostitution. Regular prostitution. Still they are not getting husband. Even they walk naked... That will come. Say after fifty years it will come like that. Śyāmasundara: They are starting already some places, walking naked. Prabhupāda: And the law is you cannot marry more than one wife. The rascal lawgiver. So many women, there must be... One husband, at the present moment, must marry at least one dozen wives, otherwise they're going to hell. At least, she will know that "I have got a husband." Maybe the husband of twelve wives, but they are anxious to have a husband. That facility should be given to them. They are anxious. Parivrājakācārya: But they don't want to have any children. Prabhupāda: That is next program. Why not? Now we are having our wives, so many children. Los Angeles full of children. So natural way should be accepted. They require husband. The law is, "No. You cannot have more, you cannot marry one wife." The girls have become prostitute. That's all right. "The girls are becoming prostitute. That's all right. But you cannot marry more than one." What is this? Śyāmasundara: They have contraceptive pills even for young children. Kulaśekhara: One barrister, one of the top judges in England, a top man, top doctor, he said children should have sex life at fourteen. He said this in the newspaper two days ago. He said children at fourteen should be allowed to have sex life. He said this should be made legal. He's a top doctor or judge. Prabhupāda: Children? Śyāmasundara: Children should be allowed to have sex life at fourteen years old. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is psychological. They develop... Sex life, sex urge is there as soon as twelve years, thirteen years old, especially women. So therefore early marriage was sanctioned in India. Early marriage. Boy fifteen years, sixteen years, and girl twelve years. Not twelve years, ten years. I was married, my wife was eleven years. I was 22 years. She did not know what is sex, eleven years' girl. Because Indian girls, they have no such opportunity of mixing with others. But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system. Śyāmasundara: So they are not spoiled. Prabhupāda: No. And the psychology is the girl, after first menstruation, she enjoys sex life with a boy, she will never forget that boy. Her love for that boy is fixed up for good. This is woman's psychology. And she is allowed to have many, oh, she will never be chaste woman. These are the psychology. So these rascals, Westerners, they do not know and they are becoming philosopher, scientist, and politician, and spoiling the whole world. They can be saved only by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no other way. Otherwise they will lick up their skyscraper building and everything will go to hell. We have seen in New York, so many houses fall down. In New York. Yes. So many. Simply garbage. I have studied. Simply full of garbage. Nobody is going to take care. And the boys and girls loitering in the street as hippies. This is a very, very, bad sign. You see? No home, home neglected, no regular life. The whole nation will be spoiled. It is already spoiled. The poison is already there. Fire. Now it is increasing. Just like you set fire, it increases. So that fire is already there. Śyāmasundara: And the Russians and the Chinese, they are training to take over. They are marching, practicing war. Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: In Russia we noticed every day they're practicing for war, young people, marching. Prabhupāda: Mechanical. Śyāmasundara: Yes. In China too, marching, ready to take over. Kulaśekhara: When we were in New York, one boy... *Prabhupāda: No, there will be fight. That is the prediction of great politician. There will be war between these Communist and anti*-Communist. There are two parties now. The anti-Communist will be defeated. The Communists will come out victorious. Śyāmasundara: We don't want to fight. None of our boys want to fight. *Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa-māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday? Śyāmasundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum. Prabhupāda: Where is that? Śyāmasundara: Just down the street. Prabhupāda: He takes them. Śyāmasundara: I don't know. I guess he does. He's gone all day. Every day he's gone. He says it's too disturbing to work here, too crowded. Prabhupāda: That may be. Śyāmasundara: I think he's doing it by longhand, writing it out because he doesn't take a typewriter. Prabhupāda: So make arrangement, whatever thoughts are coming I am giving you. Ārati is finished? Śyāmasundara: In about two or three minutes. Five. You'll hear a conchshell. Prabhupāda: Everywhere this class must be there, morning evening class. Either it is festival or temple. If you go on simply festival, you don't require to start many centers. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Starting more centers is not necessary. Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: We have the big cities covered. If people want to go and join us they can go to the big city and join. Prabhupāda: Because opening center means so much responsibility. Śyāmasundara: So much. Land... Prabhupāda: So better open. Deity will be there. Just like Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is doing. Install the deity for one week. You know everything. You have done in Calcutta, Bombay and other. Same thing. You were in Allahabad also? Devotee: Yes, I was there. Prabhupāda: Allahabad, Gorakhpur. So same thing. And for persons spiritually inclined, for them this traveling is very good. Traveling means with this occupation. It is very good. You'll be more popular and there will be no difficulty, mind will be steady. Śyāmasundara: It takes away our attachment for everything materially. Prabhupāda: The Gosvāmīs, they did not stay underneath a tree for more than one night. So you decide; then you do the needful. Haṁsadūta: When should we arrange for Śivānanda's fire ceremony? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: We should have initiation too, first initiation. Haṁsadūta: Do it all the same. Śyāmasundara: Yes. So we'll consult Pradyumna and find a good time, calendar, on the... Prabhupāda: Any day. (end) Room Conversation -- August 17, 1971, London Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time. Śyāmasundara: What he was telling me was that the table itself has a jīva soul, that the table is a person. Prabhupāda: No no. Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking. 'Cause I said, "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question. Śyāmasundara: That's what completely threw me off. I thought, "Oh..." That means the table is a person, this is a person, this is a... Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. Then it is also proved that every jīva soul is individual. Although they are living combinedly, everything is individual. Revatīnandana: Well, doesn't... That's all right then. Now the... Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. He was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still, they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, they create... a small shining particles, combined together, molecules. So everything is combined spirit particles. Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us, everything. Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvam idam khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when they are covered, that is called material exis... Śyāmasundara: Each jīva is... Prabhupāda: Just as sunshine is not covered, it is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, there is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something, it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. That covering is also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. And then, by the same energy it is dissipated also. So the conclusion is living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material. Revatīnandana: But this, the body itself is sort of a manifestation of ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. When the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body. Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. Then I know that I am not this body. Now, the question is... Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance. Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction, between the nature of the soul and the nature of the body. Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya. Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. We distinguish matter and spirit. That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya bhedābheda tattva, inconceivable one and different, simultaneously. Śyāmasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It takes a small body made out of matter. Prabhupāda: But that body means ignorance. Śarīra avidyā jāla. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance. Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all these smaller cells. I organize them into my big body. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. You try to understand. Covered by something. The same example. The sunshine is there, it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally, the sunshine is everything. Is it clear? Śyāmasundara: So how do I create matter that is my body? How do I create... Prabhupāda: You are creating. You are creating actually. Śyāmasundara: By eating and... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair; *it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing*-I am growing, I am creating. But I do not know. That is ignorance. Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask... Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public. These are very higher understanding. For public should be, "This is matter, this is spirit." That's all. Revatīnandana: Yes, but one of the devotees asked me one time, "Why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernails continue to grow." Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Never grows. Revatīnandana: Huh? They just play like that. And observe. Prabhupāda: It decomposes. Revatīnandana: But they say hair continues to come out sometimes from dead bodies. Prabhupāda: Sometimes. Śyāmasundara: I think you said once ... You answered that sometimes the fan turns a little bit after the plug. Revatīnandana: Yes. Mechanism, bodily mechanism has pulled the plug. That's what I said. Some material mechanism is still functioning like a machine. Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe just like the fan is stopped, but still moving. Like that. Revatīnandana: So there are many different manifestations of energies. It is the oneness that they're all Kṛṣṇa's energies. But there is also diversities. Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya bhedābheda. You cannot clearly distinguish. It is one and different, at the same time. It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that. Śyāmasundara: Somehow or other, we create our own ignorance. *Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything is spirit but at the same time, not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4], "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that everything is in Kṛṣṇa? How Kṛṣṇa is not there? He says like that. Revatīnandana: Yes. He says because you can't see Him there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is matter. Śyāmasundara: I want to clear this up. Just like this table. It is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one... Prabhupāda: Atom. Millions of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa says, "I am within the atom." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there? Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as the jīva expansion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Not as plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also. Jīva is also plenary expansion. Revatīnandana: Plenary? I thought plenary means... *Prabhupāda: Not plenary. That is also expansion. It is called vibhinnāṁśa. Svāṁśa, vibhinnāṁśa. Viṣṇu*-tattva is svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. Both of them are part and parcel. Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So svāṁśa is plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And vibhinnāṁśa is part of plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom, it is vibhinnāṁśa. Prabhupāda: No. Both of them there. Revatīnandana: Both of them? In the atom. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone there. Prabhupāda: Whenever the Kṛṣṇa is there, the, everything must be there. (laughter) *Haṁsadūta: But in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it says that He is present in every atom in His complete fullness. Prabhupāda: This brain will not accommodate. But as soon as the king is there you must know the king is with his ministers, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there. Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya. Śyāmasundara: But this body of a table, it's not an individual personality is it? There's not one jīva soul in charge of this table. Revatīnandana: In other words the table itself is not a person, but within there are many persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that are in the... Prabhupāda: God is also there. Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa is there. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also... Everything is there. But actually, it is Kṛṣṇa, but we cannot see. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa but it appears it is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya*-bhedābheda. So unless we accept the thesis or philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Inconceivable. For us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable, acintya. But from theoretical or by logical conclusion, everything is one: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair I am. I am the hair, but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like that. This is called acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable. Revatīnandana: A related question also: just like there is at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction, then, between the spirit... Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear. Revatīnandana: I know. But still it's, not clear, but clear, there is some distinction, where a distinction... Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction. Revatīnandana: Yes, simultaneously. Prabhupāda: Simultaneous. Now, which one will we accept? Therefore inconceivable. Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Everything is related in Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Yes. But there's also, amongst the related things. There are related things because there is also diversity amongst them. Prabhupāda: Must be. Revatīnandana: That's right. In preaching, in the movement, that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living... Prabhupāda: But there is diversity. Why not? Revatīnandana: And the brahmajyoti. They are saying... Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul. And brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa. Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa. This is a function. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire. But still, heat is not fire. You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away. Revatīnandana: That's right. So the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is comparison, a small spiritual spark. That's all. We are spark. So long it does not develop a body... That body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. He wants to enjoy. So, so long he has forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter. Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other? Prabhupāda: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body. Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That follows? *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen. Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahmajyoti you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness. Śyāmasundara: So they become separated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: And Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the spiritual world, everything is composed of cintāmaṇi, just like here everything is composed of atoms. So suppose someone develops a spiritual form in the spiritual sky. That form, I mean, that cintāmaṇi, they are living entities also? Are they conscious entities or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy with Kṛṣṇa, is that an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency? Prabhupāda: That you consider. That we imagine. Haṁsadūta: That's why I'm asking. Or like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is right. They are spiritual molecules. Yes. Here also, spiritual molecules, but here it is called material because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Forgetfulness. They are covered by ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: The cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhinnāṁśa expansion. Correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But he's remembering. He is remembering, therefore he is... Prabhupāda: He may not remember. Revatīnandana: Well, he's with Kṛṣṇa, he loves Kṛṣṇa. Therefore... Prabhupāda: Just like when cowherds boy were playing, they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know. Revatīnandana: Yes, but they love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The love is there. When the love is there, that is spiritual. Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. That is not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They're not separated any more. Prabhupāda: That you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world, they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Revatīnandana: The thing that was bothering me when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti, if it is jīvas, that they're all fallen souls, then I thought... Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere. When Kṛṣṇa is forgotten, that is fallen. Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was just like in a room there is so many particles of light. Already inconceivable. And, then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable... Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Separated. Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position. Prabhupāda: They're not as fallen as those who are in this material. Revatīnandana: That's right. But still if they go there, they will sometimes come back here again. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not pure. They are not pure. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified. Revatīnandana: Are they less fallen because they are doing some service by lighting it up? *Prabhupāda: It is clearly stated: aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence, aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated. Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence. So they realize... *Prabhupāda: They think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says "No, it is not yet liberated." Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ. Still there is contamination. Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then... Prabhupāda: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantāya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting. Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes. (laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Revatīnandana: The more we understand, the more we can convince others. Prabhupāda: No. Better you understand this, that you cannot understand. This understanding is better. Revatīnandana: No, but what I said is that... Prabhupāda: That "I cannot understand," this understanding. Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up. Then just simply love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is real understanding, that "Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can, whatever is my, in my capacity." That is perfection. Revatīnandana: Yes. But still, we deal with this philosophy for... Prabhupāda: Yes. On the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says, we can understand that. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible. Revatīnandana: But even... Just like this book, this is for convincing people. This book is for convincing them to understand. Prabhupāda: No, still, we understand better than them. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big that He is understandable even by us, and what to, about these rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position, that "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him. And what, rascal, you can understand?" The attitude should be taken like that. Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says... Prabhupāda: That's it. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all. And we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense, people try to understand a thing without, by inspecting it. Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity. He has no capacity, still, he wants... And when he's caught that "You have no capacity," "No, I am trying. I am trying." He won't say that "I have no capacity." Śyāmasundara: Or "I will understand." Prabhupāda: "I will understand." Śyāmasundara: "In the future." Prabhupāda: Obstinacy. Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible. And then when we don't understand... *Prabhupāda: As far as we know from sādhu*-guru-śāstra. That's all. That is our understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yes. We can't extend it any further by our own... Prabhupāda: No. Don't try to extend also. Śyāmasundara: Like that business about the soul in the table. I just completely changed everything we've done so far. Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru, that is my life. That's all. Let me execute that." Revatīnandana: That was semantics. That was word usage. That's why we got confused. And now I can clear up the confusion I stirred up. Thank you very much. Haṁsadūta: But I have one more question Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: On the light. Haṁsadūta: In our world here, there are material scientists and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance... Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different. Haṁsadūta: I know. But I mean, there must be... Suppose, on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted in his prayers that people..."Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part, I say I never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? So even Brahmā cannot understand. What we? He says, "The other rascals may say." Where is that Brahma*-stotra? In the first part, find out. Haṁsadūta: No. It's in the Process of Creation isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no. In *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Where is that...? This is second part. I say always that... Śyāmasundara: Second part? Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. No, no. It is not in Volume Two. Revatīnandana: It's in Volume One, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys. When I went to Paris, they had gotten all confused. Someone was thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā is not a pure devotee, because... Prabhupāda: In one sense, not. In one sense. Revatīnandana: By his behavior sometimes... Prabhupāda: No, no, behavior... Because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire. Haṁsadūta: But at the same time, he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: But Brahmā, it does not mean Brahmā cannot be pure devotee. *Revatīnandana: Does he become a pure devotee? Otherwise how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma*-saṁhitā? Also he's the head of our disciplic succession. That's why I said, "No. He's a pure devotee." How can he be the head of our disciplic succession if he's not a pure devotee? *Haṁsadūta: He says, "My dear Lord, people may say that I am the master of all Vedic knowledge and I am supposed to be the creator of this universe. But it has been proved that I cannot understand Your personality, even though You are present before me just like a child. You are playing with Your boyfriends, calves and cows, which might imply that You do not even have sufficient education. You are appearing just like a village boy carrying Your food in Your hand and searching for Your calves, and yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, Your body is not material." He says, "Even though You are standing before me, I cannot..." Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He says, "Even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand." So people they think they understand it only when God is nowhere near. Prabhupāda: No, this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand; what we can understand? So without bothering ourself... Jñāne prayāsam. Jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. Namanta, give up this practice. Jñāne prayāsam udapasya namanta eva. Just become submissive. Submissive means that "We cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let us serve." That's all. And develop your dormant love. That is perfection. Haṁsadūta: Is that why Kṛṣṇa also says to Arjuna, He says, "What need is there of all this..." Prabhupāda: Hm? *Haṁsadūta: In the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything." *Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. (pause) Jñāne prayāsam udapasya namanta eva san*-mukharitaṁ bhavadīya-vārtāṁ jīvanti. [break] ...in temple you'll have to sleep. Yes. So also keep it in mind that unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center. Because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association, he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down. That which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he could not manage. There was debts and he became disgusted. You see. Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in Germany, I have, like for instance, in Munchen, in Munich... Prabhupāda: At least, must be two, three men; otherwise don't open. Haṁsadūta: Yes, there are two, three men, but I visit them regularly. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Visit. Keep them alive. "Simply because we have opened a center, the business is finished." No. You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution. Busy. That is alive. Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, so many Indian temples or churches, they think, "The church is there; everything is finished." No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale. Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. Everywhere we attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Come on. So how you were allowed to enter? Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty. Prabhupāda: Last time you had difficulty. Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was... Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news? Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there. Prabhupāda: Your health is all right? Śivānanda: My health is fine. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities. Śivānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudama was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (end) Conversation with Journalists -- August 18, 1971, London Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization. Guest: Not simply because of the increased population? Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolishness. Guest: That's foolish? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons. Guest: Oh, so someone, someone who's foolish... *Prabhupāda: No. Even the... Just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There are millions and trillions... There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, eight million species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being. Out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized, so*-called civilized population. Guest: And that's because, you would say that we have the wrong... Prabhupāda: No, I, I... We are believer in God. You see. So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population. But what is the question of demonic civilization. Journalist (1): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of the world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food... Journalist (1): And you think there's enough food. Prabhupāda: There is enough provisions. But we have made artificial divisions. "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy. Journalist (1): But the values of Western civilization have made that... Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial. "This is Africa, this is America, this is Europe..." Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities, not only human beings. Birds, animals, birds, beasts*-everyone. This is called spiritual, or transcendental, communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder would stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasādam. Journalist (1): That's a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization... Prabhupāda: Because... That is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: "Yow! Yow! Yow! Why you are coming? Why you have come?" Just like here. Here, everywhere. The immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming... Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as, so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is... Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to... Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like your English people. They were welcome. Lord Clive was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit and he is worshiped. That is Western civilization. Journalist (1): That's really what I was going to ask you. You must find life difficult preaching the values of brotherhood in a society... Prabhupāda: Natural brotherhood. Just like in a family, naturally, a father has got ten sons, they are brothers. But one son is intriguing how to take the whole property. That is going on. That is demonic. If every one of the father's sons thinks that "Father is one and father's property equally should be distributed." But no. One cunning son is simply intriguing how to occupy the whole estate for me. That is going on all over the world. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Journalist (1): By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: As soon as you are educated that God is one, Father is one, we are all sons, then the whole solution is made. Journalist (1): Because there's no need for any one person to have any more than anybody else. Prabhupāda: No. God has given everything. God has given everything, but if one party becoming demonically powerful, he occupies everything, the others suffer. Journalist (1): Yes. But the difficulty is, and that's a very optimistic view of human nature. Prabhupāda: That is civilization. Journalist (1): But, no... Prabhupāda: That is not optimist, that is proper civilization. Journalist (1): Some people might say, who weren't perhaps as convinced as you... Prabhupāda: Some people means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see? Journalist (1): He rejects. *Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool*-headed, that "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right. There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization. Journalist (1): Yes. I know you define that as civilization. It's just, I was trying to suggest that some societies, and indeed, some individual personalities, are avaricious seemingly by nature. How do you... Well, graft and greed and... Revatīnandana: Sometimes, that is their natural position. *Prabhupāda: It is a disease. Disease. Lust and greediness. There are three qualities in the world, material world. One is called sattva*-guṇa, one is called rajo-guṇa, another is called tamo-guṇa. Goodness. Rajo-guṇa is passion, and tamo-guṇa is darkness. So at the present moment these two guṇas, qualities, darkness and passion are prevalent. Goodness gone. Goodness gone. And the darkness and passion, the symptoms are greediness and lust. People are being educated to become greedy and lusty. That's all. Nobody is being educated to become good. So what is the use of these rascal universities? If they are producing greedy and lusty people, then what is the use of education? Vidyā dadāti namratā. Education means everyone should be gentleman. That is education. And if you produce lusty and greedy people there is no... This is animal education. The animals are lusty and greedy. [break] Journalist (1): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir? Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone? Journalist (1): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about... Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, kata caturānana, māri māri yāvatā.(?) There are so many Brahmās come also and they died. So this kind of empirical imperial, onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were...Just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay. Journalist (1): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way. Prabhupāda: If you cannot... if you remain demon then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become... There are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will... They will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way. Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst... Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization. Journalist (1): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly... Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not? Journalist (1): So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that? Journalist (1): Well nothing, but that... Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am Christian." What is the gain? Journalist (1): I've never been able to understand what the gain was either. Prabhupāda: Now just try to understand Christian religion is good, provided the followers of the Christian actually follow. But they are not following. They are not following. They are simply artificially stamping, "I am Christian." In the Christian religion the first order is thou shall not kill." But the Christians are very expert in killing. So who is Christian? First of all let me see. Their First Commandment is, Lord Jesus Christ, that "Thou shall not kill." Now, every one is killing and still he is Christian. So this kind of Christian religion, or Hindu religion, what will be the benefit? If you don't follow, simply you stamp yourself that "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim..." That is going on. Nobody is Christian. Nobody is Hindu. Nobody is Muslim. Everyone is demon. Everyone is demon. That is our proposal. There is no Christian, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim. That is our proposal. Journalist (1): Except people who have accepted the Kṛṣṇa consciousness presumably. That... Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. First of all, you were talking about the Christian religion. I say that Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion, there may be different religions, but what is the aim of religion? That you should understand. The aim of religion is to know God. If you profess some religion, but if I ask you what is God, if you cannot explain, then what is the use of your becoming religious? Journalist (1): Probably none. But people like to have, or seem to like to have a religion. Prabhupāda: They don't like. They don't like God. They don't like God. As soon as somebody speaks of God, "They say they are crazy." So actually there is no Christian, no Hindu, no Muslim. All demons. That's all. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: Well, become religious. If you are really Christian, that is all right. But you are not Christian because you are violating the orders of Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed his life and he says that he atoned for your sins, but you are not stopping your sinful life, and still you are claiming to be Christian. The fun is going on. Actually there is no Christian. Otherwise Christian religion is very nice religion. Yes. Journalist (1): Do you think that you can help large numbers of people in this country understand that... Prabhupāda: I can help everyone provided he takes my help. If you refuse my help, how can I help you? Journalist (1): No, I'm merely suggesting that you would... Prabhupāda: Yes, What is our...? I am helping. I am asking people to become God conscious. But if you refuse to become God conscious how can I help you? Journalist (1): But to become God conscious do you think they have to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, you become devotee of God. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then... You have got some idea of God? Or not? Journalist (1): You could accept the idea of God in another manner than your church? Prabhupāda: Suppose... We are giving Kṛṣṇa, presenting Kṛṣṇa, as God, and we are giving God's name, address, place, everything. Yes. (laughter) Don't laugh. It is serious. If you refuse to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God. Give me His the address, name and occupation. Can you give me? Journalist (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then you take from me. Why you are refusing? If you do not know then take it from me. And if you know better than me, you give it to me. You do not know; still, you will not accept. Then what is your position? That you don't want to know God. When I say, "Do you know what is God?" you say, "No." When I present God, you say, "Why shall I accept? It is your God." At least we have got some God. But you know, do not know what is God. So my position is better than you. Journalist (1): Well, if you accept. Again, it's a slight digression. Prabhupāda: No. You have no idea of God. You cannot give name, address, occupation of God. I can give. Journalist (1): Do you need to have a name and address and occupation for God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like when you come, I ask you what you are: "What is your name? What is your address? What is occupation?" This is the first introduction. If I do not know your name, address, occupation, then what is the use of talking with you? Journalist (1): Well, I would... Again, its a very interesting concept because often in Western civilization God is defined more as an idea than as a, something... Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. God is fact. God is a person like you and me. You can talk with Him, you can see Him. That is God. Not idea. We are talking with Kṛṣṇa. We are taking His instruction and abiding by His order. It is not an idea. It is fact. That is God. Journalist (1): That's a difficult thing for people... Prabhupāda: Not difficult thing. If you do not take it is difficult. If you accept, there is no difficulty. They are accepting. There is no difficulty. They have also belonged to Western country. They are happy. And ask him. Journalist (1): I don't dispute, but you said that they are... Prabhupāda: And they'll give you all information of God. Journalist (1): Yes. I'm not suggesting that they're not happy, nor that your followers aren't convinced that you're right. Prabhupāda: So you can become also happy, you can know also God provided you take. If you don't take how can I help? Journalist (1): What I'm suggesting is, I mean trying to suggest is that for a large number of people... Prabhupāda: Well, large number... Large number... When you speak of something good, you cannot expect many. Just like if you want to sell diamond, you cannot expect that the whole population of England will purchase it. When there is question of diamond, the customer also must be very rich. Similarly, to understand God is not so difficult, or, easy job. Only the fortunate, pious, nice people can understand God. Not ordinary... Journalist (1): And only get to work at it, find the time to try it. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But we are giving facilities to everyone to understand God. That is our mission. Journalist (1): But it does require a certain price for them to pay as individuals. Prabhupāda: No price. Simply to become sincere. Journalist (1): To sincerely try to find Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are sincerely anxious to know God, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. Tatra laulyam eka*-mūlyam. One must be very much anxious that "I must know God." Then God is revealed. There is no question of paying so much money. Our transaction in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no monetary transaction. I did not pay anything to them, neither they are paying to me. It is a question of understanding. Journalist (1): Yes. I'm only suggesting that you were saying already that only people who were kind or gentle perhaps would find it easy to start. There are obviously, as you were saying, lots of people who are not so kind or gentle and presumably would find it more difficult. Prabhupāda: No. They may not be gentle, but we are gentle. Please come to us and learn. They may not be gentle. We can create gentle, provided he follows. Journalist (1): Is that one single... Dhanañjaya: (background talk) Śrīla Prabhupāda, (indistinct) the BBC One, Radio. They're (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: You can also note*-this is common-talking of God. Journalist (1): One last question. Is there a single, simple stitch (?) that you could give to people who don't know anything about Kṛṣṇa consciousness to help them to understand it. Is there one simple, single... Prabhupāda: Very simple. God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. If God is proprietor, He must be enjoyer. And God is the supreme friend. Journalist (1): Thank you very much. How long're you going to be...? Prabhupāda: If you simply understand these three things. This is fact. Journalist (1): God is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. Journalist (1): Enjoyer. Prabhupāda: And God is the supreme friend. Now if you analyze... Now you cannot say that you are the proprietor of this land. Somebody else is. Just like the land was there before your birth, and the land will remain there after your death, so during your span of life you are simply claiming. "This is mine." But before you birth, after your death, it belongs to somebody else, the supreme proprietor. And because He is the supreme proprietor He is the supreme enjoyer. And He is the supreme friend in this way, that He is giving all necessities of life to everyone. Nobody can be better friend than God. Journalist (1): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: So these three things, if you try to understand that God is the proprietor, God is the supreme friend and God is the supreme enjoyer, then all problems solved. Journalist (1): Thank you. Journalist (2): May I come in another queue for BBC Radio 4, just to tell me in fact what is the purpose of your visit to London? Prabhupāda: To teach you these things, as we were just talking with your friend, that God is proprietor, God is friend of everyone and God is the supreme enjoyer. Journalist (2): I understand in fact that you are a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. What does this mean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist (2): Can you tell me what it means? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee of God. Journalist (2): . But what is the extent of your purity? Prabhupāda: What is that? Journalist (2): What do you mean by being pure? Does it mean that you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. I am seeing every moment. And if you want to see, I can show you. Journalist (2): Please do. Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not so easy. It is not so cheap that you want to see immediately, I can show you. You have to become student like him. Then you can see. Journalist (2): I would have to become a member of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Not only member, a student like him. There are many members they pay some money. But they are learning according to my direction. Journalist (2): Can you tell me what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: First of all you have understood this thing or not? If you want to see God, you have to become a student like him. Are you prepared to that? Journalist (2): I haven't got the opportunity to become a student. Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of seeing God. Don't talk of seeing God. God seeing is not so cheap. You talk about seeing God. If you want to see God, then you have (to) become a student how to see God. Journalist (2): Can I see God by becoming a Christian? Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was speaking. That if you are true Christian, you will see God. But who is true Christian, let me see first of all. Journalist (2): Have you got a particular mission for London? Prabhupāda: I have particular mission for the whole world? Why London? London is included in the world. Journalist (2): What is that mission? Prabhupāda: That mission is to make you understand what is God. You cannot say what is God. If I ask you, can you say what is God? Journalist (2): I can't. Can you? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn. Journalist (2): Can you say what is God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Therefore you have to become student. Journalist (2): Tell me what is God. Prabhupāda: First of all, you become a student, otherwise you'll not be understand... That I say God is the supreme enjoyer, God is the supreme proprietor. That I already told. Can you understand this? Can you refute this, that God is not the supreme proprietor? Journalist (2): What sort of people do you want? Prabhupāda: No, why you are going away? You are talking one thing and then going another thing. Journalist (2): I have to do, I'm afraid. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then I cannot waste my time. You question one thing. Make a solution. Journalist (2): What sort of people do you want to become students? Prabhupāda: Tell him, Bhagavān. Bhagavān: We want everyone to become our students. No one has a good understanding of what is God. Journalist (2): I can't get this on the microphone. Prabhupāda: You can take instruction from the students who are actually trying to understand God. Journalist (2): I read somewhere that possibly you wanted to convert people who were politicians and businessmen. Why? Prabhupāda: Who said? Where you have got this idea that I am trying to convert politicians? Where? Journalist (2): In a newspaper. Prabhupāda: Where is that newspaper? This is not a fact. You are telling something which is not a fact. Journalist (2): You want to convert everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone requires to understand God. Why politicians and newspapermen? Everyone. God is for everyone. Everyone requires... The human life is meant for understanding God. Why politicians and businessmen? Without knowing God, he cannot be happy, whatever he may be. Journalist (2): Do you think if people had a deeper understanding of God... a spiritual consciousness...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he will be happy. Journalist (2): Do you think it would solve the problems of... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Oh yes. Certainly. Journalist (2): Which problems? Prabhupāda: All problems. Whatever problems are there. Social, political, religious, cultural, everything. Journalist (2): The problems that exist in Ireland and India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. You simply give education to understand what is God. Then all problems will be solved. Journalist (2): .What about yourself? How long have you had this understanding and awareness of God? *Prabhupāda: How long you want? (laughter) I have had this under*-standing from my birth. My father was God conscious, he taught me how to become God conscious. Journalist (2): And you are in fact the spiritual leader of these students. What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Huh? Because I want to teach them what is God. If anyone is interested with God, I can teach him. Journalist (2): How long does it take? Prabhupāda: It takes one second. Journalist (2): Well, can we do it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You accept, surrender to God, then you become God conscious. Journalist (2): And what happens to me then? *Prabhupāda: Then you become happy. And the Bhagavad*-gītā says that God said that "You surrender unto Me. I give you protection from all sinful reaction." That is the statement of God. So if surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God, that "God, so long I was forgotten about You. Now I surrender unto You. You do whatever you like," everything is all right. Journalist (2): Thank you. Thank you for your time. [break] *Prabhupāda: We are simply presenting the fact that everything belongs to God. God is the supreme friend and God is the maintainer of everyone, everything, and He is the supreme enjoyer. These three things, if we understand, then the whole problem is solved. Now, I say that God is the proprietor. Now you refute. Those who will not accept, that "God is not proprietor, I am proprietor," this requires discussion. How you become proprietor? Bhagavad*-gītā says, God says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. I am not manufacturing this. It is stated in the śāstra. God is the supreme enjoyer. He is the proprietor. He should be enjoyer. Just like here, if I am the proprietor of a factory, so the profit should come to me, similarly, if God is the proprietor of everything then we cannot enjoy anything without the sanction of God. We therefore eat prasādam. We know that the fruit, flowers, or grains, or milk, whatever we are offering to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given us. You cannot manufacture these things, nice oranges, in factory. You cannot manufacture rice or wheat. Actually, God has given. That is God consciousness. Anything, even those who are eating animals, they cannot manufacture animals in the factory. That is also God's creation. So in the Vedas it is said, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, "That one supreme living being is supplying food or necessities of life to all living entities." That's a fact. He is the maintainer. He is the giver of food. We are simply handling. That's all. Everything. Even this house or your car, everything. The material ingredients are supplied by God. The intelligence is also given by God. So by God-given intelligence, by God-given ingredients, you are preparing something, and you are claiming that "It is mine." Why? Suppose if I give somebody intelligence, "You make this table like this," I give ingredients, I give him money, then after the table is manufactured, if the carpenter says, "It is mine," is that proper ? I have given you money, I have given you the wood, I have given you the intelligence, I have maintained you. How it belongs to you? So this is going on. Everything God's, and we are claiming "Mine." Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho 'yam [SB 5.5.8]. This is called illusion. I am not the proprietor, but I am thinking I am... This is called illusion. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to remove this illusion, to accept the real fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is nothing that is (indistinct) manufactured artificially. To come to your real position. Just like a madman has got in some consciousness. He's thinking so many crazy ways. That sort of consciousness will not help us. If we actually come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is our perfection. [break] God is the proprietor, God is the enjoyer, and God is the maintainer. Three things. So our, this movement is nothing new. It is oldest and authorized. So now if we can push on this movement, that is the greatest welfare activity in the human... (end) Room Conversation -- August 21, 1971, London Prabhupāda: Class must be. Without hearing, everything will be tainted. (knock on door) Yes? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, what do you think about the German translation work? I mean... Prabhupāda: It must go on. Haṁsadūta: I know it must go on. But isn't there some way to increase it, to make it go more quickly? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything should be done quickly. Because we do not know when we shall die. So everything, Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, should be done as quickly as possible. Haṁsadūta: I mean in that respect... see, everything must go through Maṇḍalībhadra's hands. Before it can be printed, everything has to go through his hands because he is the chief translator. But at the present moment it's going so slowly that... We haven't even been able to produce the magazine. Prabhupāda: So find out somebody else. Haṁsadūta: Well, that's my proposal. Or make a different arrangement. But one arrangement I proposed was to pay him some money. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I proposed that we pay him some money so that he can do it full time instead of... Prabhupāda: So yes, you can do. Haṁsadūta: Is that okay? Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a gṛhastha. If he needs some money... Haṁsadūta: Cause right now he's working full time, eight hours and day and still he's... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Haṁsadūta: So if that's okay. Prabhupāda: If he requires some money, give him. What can be done? That is not unusual. A gṛhastha, he requires some money. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I understand. I just wanted to know if it was acceptable. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why not acceptable? No. Yes. Yes. That's all right. Let him take. We are paying Hayagrīva also. What can be done? Haṁsadūta: And another thing I wanted to ask you about, Prabhupāda, is that Maṇḍalībhadra, he wants to make your literature perfect, which is natural because we want to make the nicest presentation. But the devotees are saying that the translation... For instance, this *Easy Journey to Other Planets*, has been in the process so long, it has so many times been reworked, that it's no longer palatable to them. They don't even read it. They'd rather have the English version. So I know that Your Divine Grace has said you have full faith in his ability to do the work... Prabhupāda: No, no. If you... you find out somebody else. He can also do. Haṁsadūta: Because my opinion is that he's becoming overworked, it's becoming strained, so much so that we're not even able to bring it to the printer because he insists on making every time more and more corrections. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) It never comes to perfection. Haṁsadūta: It never comes to perfection. It can, you know. For instance, this little booklet, *Easy Journey to Other Planets*, one of the things that has been holding it up is because the diacritic marks, to get the diacritic marks in there perfectly... We took it to a professional composer. Of course, they're not experienced, so they didn't, at first they didn't want to do it and then... At any rate, my opinion was first let us print it without the diacritic marks, and then the second edition make it with diacritic marks. Improve it by editions rather than wait until it's completely perfect before we put it on the market because... Prabhupāda: But if once it is made perfect, then it will be easier to print more and more. Haṁsadūta: That's true, but see, what has happened is the entire sum has been lost... Prabhupāda: He could not finish any one? Haṁsadūta: No, not even the magazine was finished. The magazine before this recent one, I put it together myself from old magazines. Prabhupāda: There are so many German students. They cannot do? Haṁsadūta: They can do, but the thing is that you have said that he is the chief and unless it goes through him, it can't be printed. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. No, no. No, no. *Haṁsadūta: Everything is bottle*-necked around him. Prabhupāda: Now, the important subject, he may do slowly, but... *Haṁsadūta: Like Bhagavad*-gītā or Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Others may be done by others. You print it. Even there is some mistake, that doesn't matter. *Haṁsadūta: Yes. And another thing I wanted to ask Your Divine Grace is this. This Bhagavad*-gītā, I would like to print it as it becomes finished chapter by chapter. Otherwise it will be a long time before we have a book. Prabhupāda: No, no, you can publish, chapter by chapter. Haṁsadūta: This is all right? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: Because these German people, they have to have books. Prabhupāda: No, no. You give them chapter by chapter. That's all. We should use our intelligence. You give something, full. So chapter by..., introduction, chapter by chapter, like that. And others may also translate, which is not very intelligent. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... So do like that. Haṁsadūta: Yes. [break] Pradyumna: They have some of our philosophy. [break] Bhagavān: ...who has finally approved it, to see if it was up to standard. Haṁsadūta: Well it reminds me of Janārdana. You know Janārdana was a big scholar and he was very intelligent, but he never produced very much. You remember Janārdana? So Maṇḍalībhadra is working full time. He never comes to the temple. Of course, he lives far away, but he never comes to the temple. And I know when a person doesn't come to the temple, it's very difficult for him to maintain, especially if he maintains a full time job. It has an imperceptible effect on your consciousness. And he also, you know, we sometimes, we don't see very much eye to eye. Like for instance, this coming Back to Godhead he wanted to produce, he wanted to put a picture of some of the... Like there's a picture in one of the old Back to Godheads of Vṛndāvana. So I said, "This picture is not good because Kṛṣṇa is not in this picture. There's no Kṛṣṇa. We must have..." Prabhupāda: Old Vṛndāvana? Haṁsadūta: Yes, some buildings. Like Jaya Govinda used to write those articles, you remember? He used to write articles... Prabhupāda: Comic? *Haṁsadūta: No, no, not comics. He would take some pictures of the scenery of Vṛndāvana, like the Yamunā or some of the temples, like Madana*-Mohana temple, like that. So I said, "We must have a picture of Kṛṣṇa or a devotee or Prabhupāda. It can't be without some activity, some form, because people will not understand what it is. It may be very nice for us." So I feel that he has to either associate more with the temple or he must be paid some money so that he can work full time and... Some change must be made. Prabhupāda: No you pay and... You pay him money, and he must come. Both things should be done. He must come. Haṁsadūta: Right. He should have a lot of association with devotees. Prabhupāda: Without association, it will be whim. Haṁsadūta: It's essential. Otherwise he'll become dry and... I mean that's what I fear. Prabhupāda: I shall write to him. Haṁsadūta: He may also come to visit you. Prabhupāda: Then I will advise. Haṁsadūta: He may. I don't know. He's also having a little, even though he's working, having a little money problem. And another thing I want to ask Your Divine Grace: We have not invited you to Germany because I thought that I didn't want to impose on your time because your time is very valuable, but if you'd like to come to Germany, we can arrange a program for you in Heidelburg, and there, Pradyumna says, there are some big professors there that are important. If you like to come there, it's not that... Prabhupāda: If you can arrange a meeting amongst the scholars. Haṁsadūta: Some scholars. Prabhupāda: But another thing is that I do not know German language. Pradyumna: They all speak English. Haṁsadūta: They generally speak English very well. Generally, they all know English. Prabhupāda: Then if some scholars' and philosophers' meeting is going on that will be nice. Haṁsadūta: Then I will try to do that. What about a meeting in the biggest hall of Heidelburg? Would you also be interested in that? Prabhupāda: But I will have to speak in English. Haṁsadūta: Yes. They know English. This city is especially English. They, practically everyone knows English. Very, very, many people from America are always there. Especially the younger people, they all know English. It's a center for... Pradyumna: It's the best German university. The most famous German university is there. Haṁsadūta: And Śivānanda. Shall Śivānanda come here to see you? He wants to know about his taking sannyāsa. He can either go to Paris and meet you there or he can come here. Prabhupāda: He cannot go to Paris? Haṁsadūta: He can go to Paris and meet you there. The Hamburg devotees will meet you in Paris. They will not come to the festival because it's very complicated for us to come here and expensive. So they will... And Śivānanda can also go to Paris or he can come here. Prabhupāda: If it is possible, come here, join this festival. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I'll let him know that. Devotee: Also the Olympic games are held in Germany this year. There will be people from all over the world. Prabhupāda: Games? Devotee: The Olympic games. Haṁsadūta: Sport. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Haṁsadūta: A big sport festival in Munchen. [break] And so we have some girls and they have asked us, they want to be married. What is our position? Prabhupāda: Be married legally first. Haṁsadūta: Legally. And they will be living outside the temple for sure. Is that correct, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: And with a job and like that. Prabhupāda: No, they can live in the temple... Haṁsadūta: But they will live separate . Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Then what is the use of getting married? (end) Room Conversation -- August 25, 1971, London Prabhupāda: ...not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion," Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport, or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that? Devotee: Yes, I've heard. *Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all, realize, then challenge. [break] Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the special distinction, that their life, human life must be based on dharma, religion. They have rejected dharma. That is another type of frustration because the so*-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. And therefore people become, revolted: "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink gāñjā. You have been Rādhā-Dāmodara temple? You have seen that Gosāi? Śyāmasundara: Is he still there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhā*-Dāmodara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to Rādhā-Dāmodara, managing. Api cet sudarācāraḥ. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. [break] ...should think that we have got to say so many things to the people. Huh? About this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute. Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them. *Prabhupāda: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so*-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all round, all included. Revatīnandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. That is Indian śaṅkha? That in your hand, bangle, white bangle. Woman: Ah, elephant? Prabhupāda: It is called śaṅkha. From conchshell, it is made from conchshell. Where you have purchased it? Woman: I'm afraid this is ivory. Prabhupāda: Ivory? Oh. There is similar made from conchshell. Woman: Yes, I had those in Allahabad. I was going there to... *Prabhupāda: Allahabad? Conch, from conchshell? It is especially used in Bengal. A woman... that is an auspicious sign that she is with her husband, to have conchshell bangle. Śaṅkha*-sari. A woman dressed śaṅkha and sari, śaṅkha-sari. They don't require any other ornament. One nice sari and śaṅkha. That is Indian conception of woman having husband. That is distinction between widow and a woman having husband. Widow will not accept sari. All finished. Vedic culture, widow should finish her life after having the husband. Saha-gamana. Satī. Yes. [break] ...have got enough to preach. People will like it. Devotee: Yes, I think so. Yes. I think we have enough. *Prabhupāda: They'll like. Enough ingredients to preach. Simply one has to become intelligent how to express. The, what is called, outlines of thought are already there. You read one line, you can speak half an hour. They are so full of meaning. Provided you can express the meanings. So we are not reading all the lines. We are going quickly from one śloka to another. Otherwise, if we explained each line of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam... Just like my Guru Mahārāja explained the first śloka for three months in Dacca. [break] ...after this verse, he explained for three months. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained ātmārāma-śloka in sixty-four ways. That is described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya. Sixty-four ways. Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained in nine ways. He did not touch on those nine ways. Setting aside those nine ways, personally He explained in sixty-four ways. Formerly such scholars were there, such religious persons were there. Therefore people were happy. What these rascals speak? Now there is Freud's philosophy and Darwin's theory. Revatīnandana: It's nice because here people will listen. In India they won't listen, and in America they can't listen. They're so degraded. (end) Room Conversation -- September 3, 1971, London Prabhupāda: ...colleges, universities, that will be very nice. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: I wrote you a while ago. I was working on a doctorate dissertation. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: A doctoral dissertation, a Ph.D. dissertation, that when I became a devotee I was studying religion... [Break] Prabhupāda: ...Hindu, or I may be a Christian, but the fact is that we are serving somebody. Either you be Hindu or Muslim or Christian or you may profess any religion, but you must be serving somebody. Is it not? So that serving is religion. Try to understand this. *Kīrtirāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I just wanted to say I found the name of that Council General. His name is A.K. Ray, R*-a-y. So do wish to do anything further with it? (end) Room Conversation -- December 10, 1971, New Delhi Prabhupāda: Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mäyäpura Śyāmasundara: ...1972 in Māyāpura. Conversations between Śrīla Prabhupāda and Bob, a Peace Corps worker, entitled "Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers." [break] (Devotees are singing prayers to Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva loudly over loudspeaker in background.) Prabhupāda: ...because he knows things as they are. Bob Cohen: (indistinct) ...knows things as they are. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: He hopes he knows things as they are. Prabhupāda: No, he's supposed to know. We approach to a scientist because he's supposed to know the things right. (A loudspeaker is playing very loudly in the background.) Let them make a little soft. [break] (laughter) Great relief. (laughter) Bob: I have felt that the loudspeakers were too loud all day. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: And I mentioned it to somebody. Prabhupāda: It is pinching. Bob: Yeah. It loses some maybe transcendentalism through the amplifier. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Ask them to make it softer. So scientist means one who knows things as they are. That is scientist. So Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] So just like your daughter, she was also... I was little older, so I was beating her like anything. (laughter) (pause) So Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. *Bob: All*-attractive. *Prabhupāda: All*-attractive. *Bob: All*-attractive. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless God becomes all*-attractive, how He can become God? (pause) A man is important when he's attractive. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupāda: So, God must be attractive and attractive for all. Therefore, if God has got any name, or if you want to give any name to God, only "Kṛṣṇa" can be given. Bob: But why only the name Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Because all*-attractive. Kṛṣṇa, this word, means all-attractive. Bob: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. God has no name, but by His quality we give His name. Bob: May He be called...? *Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is very beautiful, we call "beautiful." If a man is very intelligent, we call him "wise." So name is given according to the quality. Because God is all*-attractive, therefore the only name Kṛṣṇa can be applied to Him. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. *Bob: What about a name meaning "all*-powerful"? Prabhupāda: Yes. Attractive means... Unless you are powerful, how you can be attractive? (laughter) Acyutānanda: It includes everything. Prabhupāda: Includes everything. He must be very beautiful, He must be very wise, He must be very powerful, He must be very famous... Bob: Is Kṛṣṇa attractive to rascals? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was the greatest rascal also. Bob: How is this? Prabhupāda: (laughing) Because he was teasing always the gopīs. Śyāmasundara: Teasing? Prabhupāda: Yes. The Rādhārāṇī would go, because She was married and Kṛṣṇa will attack Her. And when She fall down, "Kṛṣṇa, don't torture Me in that way," She will fall down, and Kṛṣṇa will take the opportunity and kiss her. (Prabhupāda laughs) So from superficially, Rādhārāṇī was very pleased, but superficially Kṛṣṇa is a great, the greatest rascal. Unless rascaldom is not in Kṛṣṇa, how rascaldom is there, existence in the world? Because our formula of God is that He's the source of everything. Ask her not to talk. (Shouts at someone in Bengali) Katha kaibe nā! Katha kaibe nā. Unless rascaldom is not in Kṛṣṇa, how it can be manifest. Because He's the source of everything. But His rascaldom is so nice that everyone worships His rascaldom. Bob: But what about the rascals who are not so nice? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: What about... *Prabhupāda: No, rascaldom is not nice. But Kṛṣṇa is absolute God, therefore rascaldom is also good. Kṛṣṇa is all*-good. God is good. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Therefore, when He becomes a rascal, that is also good. That is Kṛṣṇa. Rascaldom is not good, but when it is practiced by Kṛṣṇa, because He's absolute good, that rascaldom is also good. That one has to understand. Bob: Are there some people who do not find Kṛṣṇa attractive? Prabhupāda: It is not the..., no question of some people. Kṛṣṇa cannot be compared with some people. He's God. Bob: No, do some people find Him not attractive? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: Do some people find Kṛṣṇa not attractive? Prabhupāda: No. Anyone will find Him... Some people must be of some kind. You cite any kind of people, he'll be attracted. Who's not attracted? Just place a man, example, that "This man or this living entity is not attracted to Kṛṣṇa." Just find out. Bob: Somebody who wishes to do things in life that he may feel are wrong, but he wishes to do to gain power or prestige or money... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: ...may find God unattractive. He may not find the God attractive, because God gives him guilt. Prabhupāda: No, not the God. Because he wants to be powerful, his attraction is to become powerful. A man wants to become powerful, or rich. Is that not? But nobody is richer than Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa is attractive to him. Bob: So if a rich, if a person who wants to become rich prays to Kṛṣṇa, will he become rich? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bob: He can become rich through this means. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is all*-powerful. If you pray to Kṛṣṇa to become rich, Kṛṣṇa will make you rich. Bob: But even if you do not live, even if you live an evil life you will still become rich? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: If somebody lives an evil life but prays to become rich, they may still become rich? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prays to Kṛṣṇa, that is not evil. Bob: All right, I... Oh, yeah. Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Somehow or other, he prays to Kṛṣṇa, so you cannot say that He's evil. Bob: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk [Bg. 9.30]. You have read it? Bob: Yeah. I think, the Sanskrit I don't know, but the English maybe I do. Is it "Even if the most evil man prays to Me..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: "...then he will be elevated." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Something like that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So as soon as he begins to pray to Kṛṣṇa, that is not evil. Therefore He is all*-attractive. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Why don't you cover? Devotee: I covered the outside with a cloth, I didn't want to disturb you; so I put thick cloth on the outside. Prabhupāda: You have covered? Devotee: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: Kaṁsa... You know Kṛṣṇa's life? Bob: Not, not much. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mother... (pause*-background noise is very loud) [break] ...the Vedas that the Absolute Truth or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the reservoir of all pleasure-raso vai saḥ. Everyone is hankering after something because he relishes some mellow in it. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Some mellow. Bob: Ah, some mellow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a man is drinking. Why he's drinking? He's getting some mellow out of that drinking. A man is hankering after money because by possessing money he gets a mellow out of it. Bob: What does mellow mean? Maybe I... Prabhupāda: What is mellow? Devotees: Taste, pleasure. Bob: Oh, O.K. Prabhupāda: Yes, pleasure. Pleasing taste. So *Vedas* say, raso vai saḥ. The exact Sanskrit translation of mellow is rasa. What is that? Mālatī: Eggplant fried. *Prabhupāda: Oh! (laughter) All*-attractive! All-attractive! You are becoming all-attractive! Mālatī: No. *Prabhupāda: Yes, No more, no more! No more attraction! (laughing) Where is your all*-attractive daughter? *Mālatī: She is in all*-attractive māyā. *Prabhupāda: Actually, she's all*-attractive. (chuckling) Everyone loves her. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa, the Reservoir of All Pleasure. Bob: This must be a new book. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Bob: Prabhupāda said tonight again, he said, "Kṛṣṇa is the greatest scientist." And he said (indistinct) more that I remembered, but I can't recall now. There was something else he said that stuck in my mind, I just can't recall it. Can you remind me? Śyāmasundara: How is Kṛṣṇa the greatest scientist? Prabhupāda: Because He knows everything. A scientist means one who knows a subject matter thoroughly. He's scientist. Kṛṣṇa, He knows everything. Bob: You said... I told you I teach science. You had said something about teaching, or teaching of science. Prabhupāda: Yes. Teaching, unless you have got perfect knowledge how you can teach? That is our proposition. Bob: Without perfect knowledge, though, you can teach what knowledge you have. Prabhupāda: No, that is cheating. That is not teaching, that is cheating. Just like the scientists said, "There was a chunk, and the creation took place, perhaps..." What is this? Simply cheating. It is not teaching, it is cheating. Bob: Let me say what else you said this morning that was interesting. I asked him about miracles, and Prabhupāda said that only a fool would believe in miracles because... Let us say you are a child and an adult lifts this table. That's a miracle. Or you're a chemist, and you combine acid and base and make smoke, an explosion or whatever. To somebody ignorant, that's a miracle. And for everything there's a process. And so when you see a miracle, it's just ignorance of the process. So that only a fool would believe in miracles, and, you correct me if I say wrong... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bob: ...that when Jesus came, the people then were somewhat more ignorant and needed miracles as aid. Was that... I wasn't sure if that's quite what you said. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Miracle means ignorant. Bob: I had asked this in relation to all the miracle men you hear about in India. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the highest miracle man. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is stated by Kuntī. Bob: Without perfect knowledge, can I not teach some things? For example, I may... Prabhupāda: You can teach up to that, which point you know. Bob: But should not claim to teach more than I know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is cheating. Yaśodānandana: In other words, you can't teach the truth... Prabhupāda: Huh? Yaśodānandana: ...you can't teach the truth with partial knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not possible by any human being. Because any human being, his senses are imperfect. So how he can teach perfect knowledge? Just like you see the sun like a disc. You have no means to approach the sun. If you say, "We can see the sun by telescope and this and that," that is also made by you. And you are imperfect, your instrument is imperfect. Because that telescope you can say that you are seeing, but that machine is made by you, and you are imperfect. How your machine can be perfect? Therefore your knowledge of the sun is imperfect. So you don't teach about sun unless you have got perfect. That is cheating. Bob: But what about to teach that it is supposed that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away? Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "it is supposed," it is not scientific. Bob: Yeah, but I think almost all of science, then, is not scientific. Because all science... (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is the point. Bob: Oh, I see. Is based on, you know, suppositions of this or that. So imperfect knowledge may be taught... Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: Imperfect... Prabhupāda: They're teaching imperfect. Just like they are advertising so much about moon. Do you think the knowledge is perfect. Bob: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Bob: What do you think is the proper duty of the teacher? Prabhupāda: No more. Huh? Bob: What is the proper duty of the teacher in society? Let's say a science teacher. What should he be doing in the classroom? Prabhupāda: Classroom, you should simply teach about Kṛṣṇa. Bob: He should not teach about... Prabhupāda: No, that will include everything. But his aim should be how to know Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Can a scientist teach the science of combining acid and alkaline and this kind of science with Kṛṣṇa as its object? Prabhupāda: How it can be? Bob: If you... When one studies science, one finds general tendencies of nature, and these general tendencies of nature point to a controlling force. Prabhupāda: That I was explaining the other day. Where? In Madras, or where? "Who has supplied these chemicals?" Śyāmasundara: Ah, in Madras. Prabhupāda: I asked one chemist that according to chemical formula, hydrogen and oxygen mixed, it becomes water. Is it not? Bob: That's true. Prabhupāda: Now, this vast water in the Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean, how much chemicals were required? Bob: How much? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Oh, I don't know. Prabhupāda: How many tons? Bob: Many. Prabhupāda: So who supplied it? Bob: This was supplied by God. Prabhupāda: Somebody must have supplied. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is... You can teach like that. Bob: And should one bother teaching that if you combine acid and alkaline... Prabhupāda: The same thing, the same thing, that now we have to..., that... There are so many effervescence. So, who is performing it? Who is supplying the acid and alkaline? (pause) Bob: So this comes from the same source as the water. Prabhupāda: Um hmm. Yes. Water you cannot manufacture unless you have got hydrogen and oxygen. So here is a vast... Not only this Atlantic or Pacific, there are millions of planets, and there are millions of Atlantic and Pacific oceans. So who created this water with hydrogen and oxygen, and how it was supplied? That is our question. Somebody must have supplied; otherwise how it came to existence? Bob: But should it also be taught how you make water from hydrogen and oxygen? The procedure of burning them together, should this also be taught? That if you burn hydrogen and oxygen together... Prabhupāda: That is secondary. Bob: Excuse me? *Prabhupāda: That is secondary. That is not very difficult. Just like this Mālatī made purī. So there is flour and there is ghee, and she made purī, but unless there is ghee and flour, where is the chance of making purī? (pause) In the Bhagavad*-gītā there is this, "Water, earth, air, fire, they are made of My energy." Bob: Made of, what is that? Prabhupāda: "My energy." Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: (Bengali?) What is your body. This external body, that is your energy. Do you know that? The body is made out of your own energy. Just like I am eating. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So I am creating some energy, and therefore my body is maintained. Bob: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: So therefore your body is made out of your energy. Bob: But when you eat the food, there is energy from the sun in the food... Prabhupāda: No, that... I am giving the example, I am creating some energy by digesting the food and that is maintaining my body. Therefore my body is maintained by my energy. If your energy supply is not proper, then your body becomes not in proper order. Therefore the conclusion is that your body is made out of your own energy. Similarly, why this big gigantic body, universes, is not made of Kṛṣṇa's energies? How can you deny? As your body is made out of your energy, similarly, the universal body must be made by somebody's energy. That is Kṛṣṇa. (pause) Bob: I have to think about that. I have to think about it to follow that. Prabhupāda: Why follow? It is a fact. (Bob laughs) Your hairs are growing daily. Why? Because you have got some energy. Bob: The energy I obtain from my food. Prabhupāda: Somehow or other, you have obtained that energy. And through that energy your hairs are growing. So if your body is manufactured by your energy, similarly, the whole gigantic manifestation is made of God's energy. It is a fact it is not your energy. Bob: Yeah. O.K. I see that. Śyāmasundara: Just like, aren't the planets in this universe the sun's energy, a product of the sun's energy? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But who produced the sun? That is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Because it is heat, and Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Analaḥ, analaḥ, heating. "That is My energy." The sun is representation of the heating energy of Kṛṣṇa. It is not your energy. You cannot say that "The sun is made by me." But somebody must have made. And Kṛṣṇa says. So we believe therefore Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are Kṛṣṇa*-ites. Bob: Kṛṣṇites. Prabhupāda: Yes. Our knowledge is perfect. You cannot say... If I say that "Heat is energy of Kṛṣṇa," you cannot defy it. Because it is not your energy. Just like in your body there is some certain extent of heat. Similarly... Heat is somebody's body's energy. And who is that body? That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, it is My energy." So my knowledge is perfect. Therefore I am the greatest scientist. Because I take the version of the greatest scientist, therefore I am greatest scientist. I may be fool personally, but because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist, I am greatest scientist. I have no difficulty. Bob: Excuse me? *Prabhupāda: I have no difficulty to become the greatest scientist. Because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist. (pause) [break] "This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego*-they are My eight separated energies." Bob: They're separate energies? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Separated. Prabhupāda: Separated. Separate, no? Just like this milk. What is this milk? The separated energy of the cow. Is it not? It is the manifestation of the separated energy of cow. *Śyāmasundara: Is it like a by*-product? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So what is the significance of this energy being separated from Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Separated means this is made out of the body of the cow, but is is not cow. That is separation. Bob: So this earth and all is made out of Kṛṣṇa, but is not Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: It is not Kṛṣṇa. Or you can say, Kṛṣṇa and not Kṛṣṇa simultaneously. That is our philosophy. One and different. You cannot say different because these things without Kṛṣṇa has no existence. At the same time you cannot say, "Then let me worship water. Why Kṛṣṇa?" That the pantheists, they say, that "Because everything is God, so whatever I take, that is God worship." The Rama*-Krishna Mission says like that. But that's wrong. *Bob: The Rama*-Krishna Mission says that? Prabhupāda: Yes. And the Māyāvādīs. "Because everything is made of God, therefore everything is God." That is their... But our philosophy is everything is God, but not God also. Bob: So what on earth is God? Is there anything on earth that is God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is made out of the energy of God. (pause) But (that) does not mean that anything you worship, you worship God. Bob: So what is on earth, though, is not māyā. It is... Prabhupāda: māyā means energy. Bob: It means energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. māyā, another meaning: illusion. So foolish persons, the energy is accepted as the energetic. That is māyā. Just like sunshine. Sunshine enters your room. Sunshine is the energy of the sun. But because the sunshine has entered in your room you cannot say the sun has entered. If sun enters, then your room and yourself, everything will be finished immediately. (laughter) You'll not have the leisure to understand that sun has entered. Is it not? Bob: It is so. *Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that sunshine is not sun. But without sun, where is the sunshine? So you cannot say sunshine is not sun. But at the same time it is not sun. It is sun and not sun, both. That is our philosophy. Acintya*-bhedābheda, inconceivable. In the material science you cannot conceive that a thing simultaneously positive and negative. That you cannot think. That is inconceivable energy. And because everything is Kṛṣṇa's energy, Kṛṣṇa can manifest Himself from any energy, and act. Therefore, when we worship Kṛṣṇa made of something of earth, water, or something like that, that is Kṛṣṇa, that is not Kṛṣṇ... You cannot say it is not Kṛṣṇa. When you worship this metal form of Kṛṣṇa, that is Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Because metal is energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is non-different from Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa's so powerful that He can present Himself fully in His energy. So this Deity worship is not heathenism. It is actually worshiping God, provided you know the process. Bob: If you know the process, then the Deity becomes Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not becomes, it (is) Kṛṣṇa. Bob: The Deity is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: But only if you know the process of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this electric wire is Kṛṣṇa..., er, is electricity. One who knows the process he can derive electricity out of it. Śyāmasundara: Otherwise it's just wire. Prabhupāda: That's all. Bob: So if I build a statue of Kṛṣṇa, it is not Kṛṣṇa. But if I, unless I know the process... Prabhupāda: No, it is Kṛṣṇa. But you have to know the process that it is Kṛṣṇa. It is Kṛṣṇa. Bob: It is not just earth and mud, it is Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: No, earth... Earth has no separate existence without Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "It's my energy." You cannot separate the energy and the energetic. It is not possible. You cannot separate heat from fire. But fire is different from the heat. And heat is different from the fire. You are taking heat, that does not mean you are touching fire. Fire, in spite of expanding heat, it keeps its identity. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa by His different energies creating everything, He remains Kṛṣṇa. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they think, "If Kṛṣṇa is everything, then Kṛṣṇa's separate identity is not there." That is material thinking. Just like drinking this milk, so little, little, when I finish, there is no more milk. It has gone to my belly. Kṛṣṇa is not like that. Because He's omnipotent, we are utilizing His energy continually, but still He's there, present. Just like a man begetting children unlimitedly, but the man is there. Crude example. But not that because he has produced hundreds of children, therefore he is finished. So similarly, God or Kṛṣṇa, in spite of His unlimited number of children, He's there. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam eva avaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa is never finished. [break] ...so powerful, therefore He is attractive. This is one side of the display of Kṛṣṇa's energies. Similarly, He has got unlimited energies. This study of Kṛṣṇa's energy is only one side, one portion only. So in this way if you go on studying Kṛṣṇa, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a bogus thing, that "maybe," "perhaps not." Absolutely. It is. Śyāmasundara: And the study itself is never finished. Prabhupāda: No. How can you? Kṛṣṇa has unlimited energy. [break] Bob: I've asked devotees about how they feel towards sex in their relations, and I under..., I see their way they feel, but I can't see myself acting the same way. See, I'll be getting married in this end of this summer. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: I'll be getting married the end of this summer, in September or August, when I return to America. And the devotees say that the householders only have sex to conceive a child. And I cannot picture myself at all in such a position, and... What kind of sex life can one lead, living in the material world? *Prabhupāda: The Vedic principle is that one should avoid sex life altogether. The whole Vedic principle is to get liberation from this material bondage. And there are different attachments for this material enjoyment, out of which sex life is the source of topmost enjoyment. The Bhāgavata says that this material world... Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī*-bhāvam etam [SB 5.5.8]. Means that a man is attached to woman and woman is attached to man. Not only human society, in animal society also. That attachment is the basic principle of material life. So, a woman is hankering or seeking after the association of a man, and a man is hankering or seeking the association of a woman. Just like we see the, all the fictions, novels, dramas, this cinema, or even ordinary advertisement, simply they depict the attachment between man and woman. Even in tailor's shop you'll find on the window some woman, some man. [break] So this attachment is already there. Bob: The attachment between man and woman. *Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause*-a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. [break] The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles. Sex life... It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that Bob: What is that again? *Prabhupāda: This attachment increases. The material attachment. The material attachment means "I am this body, and because I have got this body in a particular place, that is my country." And that is going on. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," this bodily... "This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country, society." So in this way the illusion becomes increased. So under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body according to his karma. So if he gets superior body, then that is also entanglement. Even if he goes to the heavenly planet, that is entanglement. And if he becomes cats and dogs, then his life's lost. A tree. There is every chance. So this science is not known in the world, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he's being entrapped in different types of body. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking from the bodily concept of life that "If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather, the other side..." So he was simply thinking on the basis of bodily concept of life. But when it was not solved he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Kṛṣṇa became his spiritual master He chastised him in the beginning. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg. 2.11], that "You are talking like learned man, but you are a fool number one because you are talking on the bodily concept of life." So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore the whole process is to reduce it to nil. Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Reduce it, just like a boy is trained up as a student up to twenty*-five years, restricting sex life. Brahmacārī. So, some of the boys they remain naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī. He, because he's given education, so if he becomes fully conversant he doesn't like to marry. But one who has not such restraint, he's allowed to marry. That is also restricted, that he cannot have sex life without being married. Therefore in the human society there is marriage, not in the animal society. But we are reducing human society gradually to animal society. We are forgetting marriage. That is also written in the śāstras. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. In the Kali-yuga there will be no marriage performances, but the boy and the girl, they'll simply agree to live together. Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetuḥ. And their relationship will exist on sexual power. If the man or the woman is deficient in sex life, then there is divorce. So on this philosophy... There are many western philosophers like Freud and others. They have written so many books. But according to Vedic culture, we are not interested. We are interested only for begetting children. That's all. Not to study the psychology of sex life. There is already psychology, pravṛtti, natural. Even if one does not read any philosophy, he'll be sexually inclined. There is no need of philosophizing sex life. Nobody is taught sex life in the school and the colleges, but everyone knows it, how to do it. (laughs) So pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. That is the general tendency. But education should be given to stop it. That is real education. (pause) Bob: That, for today, is a radical concept, for nowadays. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Presently, in America that's a radical concept. Prabhupāda: Well, in America there are so many things which requires thorough reformation. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. When I went to your country, so I saw these boys and girls, they're living like friends. I said that "You cannot live as friends; you must get yourself married." Bob: Many people see that even marriage is not sacred. So they find no desire to... Because people get married, and if things are not proper they get divorced so very easy... Prabhupāda: Yes, that also. Bob: ...that some people feel to get married is not meaningful. Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that marriage is not sacred. They think marriage is a legalized prostitution. They think like that, but marriage is not that. Even that Christian paper, what is that, "Watch...?" Śyāmasundara: Christian..."Watchtower?" Prabhupāda: "Watchtower." It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitution at a cost of heavy expenditure? Better not to have this." Śyāmasundara: You use that example of the cow and the market? Prabhupāda: Yes, when the milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? (laughter) It is a very abominable condition. In the western countries I have seen. Here also, in India, gradually it is coming to be so. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] ...movement is especially meant for making human life, reaching the real goal. Bob: The real goal? Prabhupāda: The real goal of life. Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So that is the real goal, to know God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back to home, back to Godhead. That is real goal of life. Just like the water coming from the sea as cloud falls down as rain and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again go to the sea. So we have come from God. Now we are embarrassed in this material life. Therefore the aim should be how to get out of this embarrassment and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is real goal of life. Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable. *Prabhupāda: No, some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Tattvataḥ means perfect. That perfect knowledge is being taught in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What your science says about the transmigration of the soul? Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, imperfect science. Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know. Bob: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: How the energy is diverted, how by different manipulation the energy is working differently. Just like electric energy, by different handling it is creating heater and it is creating cooler. Just opposite. But the same electric energy. So similarly, these energies, living energy, how it is being directed, which way it is going, how it is fructifying in the next life, so they do not know. They do not know. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is very simplified. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. You are covered by this dress, by this shirt. When this shirt is not workable you change it. Similarly, this body is just like shirt and coat, when it is no longer workable, we have to change. Bob: What is the "we" that has to change? What is constant between one life to the next? Prabhupāda: That is soul. That is soul, "I", what you are speaking, "you", what I am speaking, identification, ātmā, or soul. Bob: My soul is different than your soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are individual soul, I am individual soul. Bob: But you have removed yourself from karmic influences. If I was to remove myself from karmic influences, would our souls be the same or different? Prabhupāda: Soul is the same. Just like you are under certain conception of life at the present moment. Just like your these countrymen. They were under certain conception of life. But by training they have taken another conception of life. So the ultimate training is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is perfection. Bob: If two people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, is their soul the same? Prabhupāda: Soul is always the same. Bob: In each person. In each person is it the same? *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Soul, as spirit soul, pure soul, they are all equal. Even in animal. Therefore it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18], means those who are actually learned, they do not see the outward covering, either human being or animal. Bob: Oh, then they are all equal and the same, or just equal? Are they equal and the same, or are they just equal? Prabhupāda: No, equal and the same. Qualitatively and quantitatively. Śyāmasundara: I thought there was also a difference. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Isn't there also individuality and difference? Prabhupāda: Their individuality becomes different in accordance with the development of consciousness. Śyāmasundara: Oh. The soul before the development of consciousness... Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there is no difference. [break] Because their aim is at that time how to... [break] ...and that is nice. Bob: But they are the same because they are flowers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: In that sense. *Prabhupāda: Same. That is acintya*-bhedābheda philosophy. That everything is one and different simultaneously. Bob: Now, if I may ask another question on this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: The soul may be, I have considered, somewhat a part of God. But my soul I do not feel, but at times I think I feel God. It's... I'm here maybe, and you may say God is here. If the soul is inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God I mean, but a... Prabhupāda: Part of God. Bob: Yeah. Not to mean to say that I feel I am God, but to mean to say I feel that I am God... Prabhupāda: (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] Bob: I was asking Prabhupāda the meaning of the soul being part of God but I don't feel my soul, God in me. But God may be here, separate, separate from me. But should I be able to feel God inside me because my soul is a part of God? Prabhupāda: Yes, God is inside also. Bob: If I could feel God inside me, then I should be able to understand transmigration, I would think. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: If I could feel God inside me... Prabhupāda: Yes... Bob: ...feel this soul, then I should be... Prabhupāda: God is everywhere. God is inside and outside also. That is to be known. Bob: And how do you feel God inside you? *Prabhupāda: That is, of course, not in the beginning. But you have to know it from the śāstras by the Vedic information, as in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is there in everyone's heart. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is also said, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayā... Not only in my heart, God is also within the atom. So this is the first information. And then, by yogic process you have to realize it. Bob: Yogic process. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramātmā realization. Bob: Is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa such a yogic process for realizing this? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is also yoga, yogic process. Bob: What kind of yogic process must I do to find out, to feel this information, to feel the soul inside? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many different yogic processes, but for this age this process is very nice. Bob: Chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Through this I can feel not only God outside, but God inside? *Prabhupāda: You understand everything of God. How God is inside how God is outside, how God is working*-everything will be revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. By the service attitude God will reveal Himself. You cannot understand God by your endeavor. If God reveals. Just like when the sun is out of your sight you cannot see the sun by your torchlight or any light. Any amount of scientific method, you cannot see the sun at night. But in the morning you can see the sun automatically, without any torchlight. Similarly, you have to create a situation, you have to put yourself in a situation wherein God will reveal. Not that by your method you can ask God, "Please come. I will see." No, God is not your order carrier. Bob: You must please God for Him to reveal, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. Śyāmasundara: How do we know when God is pleased? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: How do we know when God is pleased, when we are pleasing God? Prabhupāda: When you see Him. (pause) Then you'll understand. Just like when you eat you needn't require to ask anybody whether you are feeling strength or your hunger is satisfied. If you eat, you understand that you are satisfied, you are feeling strength, you're feeling energy. It doesn't require to inquire anyone. Similarly, if actually, if you serve God, then you'll understand that "God is dictating me. God is, I am seeing God." Brahmānanda: Or God's representative. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: Or God's representative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Becomes easier. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to go through the God's representative. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. If you please God's representative, then automatically God becomes pleased. That is a... That you can directly see. Huh? Indian man: How to please God's representative? *Prabhupāda: You have to carry out his order. That's all. God's representative is guru. So he's asking you to do this, to do that. If you do that, that is pleasing. Yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If you displease him, then you are nowhere. Therefore we worship guru. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. A guru should be accepted as God. That is the injunction of all śāstras. Bob: The guru should be accepted as representative of God? Prabhupāda: Yes, guru is representative. Guru is the external manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: But different than, like the incarnations of Kṛṣṇa that come? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: In what way is the external manifestation of the guru different than the external manifestation of, let us say, Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya when They come to earth. *Prabhupāda: Guru is one, representative of Kṛṣṇa. So there are symptoms who is guru. The general symptoms are described in the Vedas. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. The first symptom is śrotriyam. Guru is in disciplic succession. One who has thoroughly heard about the Vedas through his spiritual master. This is general description. So another description is in the Bhāgavatam: Bob: Lord Caitanya, He was not a guru, He was different than guru? Prabhupāda: He's guru. Bob: Lord Caitanya, He was a different type of guru than you were? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guru cannot be different types. All gurus are of one type. Bob: But He was, was He also an incarnation at the same...? Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, but He is representing as guru. Bob: I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: And then. *Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa, as God, He demanded that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. But people misunderstood Him. Therefore Kṛṣṇa again came as guru and taught people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *Śyāmasundara: Doesn't He say in the Bhagavad*-gītā, "I am the spiritual master"? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Śyāmasundara: Doesn't Kṛṣṇa say "I am the spiritual master"? In Bhagavad*-gītā it says... *Prabhupāda: Yes, He's the original spiritual master. Because He has accepted spiritual master of Arjuna. So what is the difficulty? Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. "I am your disciple." So unless He's spiritual master, how Arjuna becomes His disciple? He's the original guru. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi*-kavaye, in the Bhāgavata. That He gave instruction about Vedas in the heart of Brahmā. So He's guru. Bob: Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, He's the original guru. Then His disciple Brahmā is guru. Then his disciple Nārada is guru. Then his disciple Vyāsa is guru. In this way there is guru*-paramparā. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam [Bg. 4.2], the transcendental knowledge is received through the disciplic succession. Bob: So a guru receives his knowledge through the succession, not directly from Kṛṣṇa. Do you receive some knowledge directly from Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa's direct instruction is there, Bhagavad*-gītā. Bob: I see, but... Prabhupāda: But you have to learn it through the disciplic succession; otherwise you'll misunderstand. Bob: But presently you do not receive information directly from Kṛṣṇa. It comes through the succession from the books? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no difference. Suppose if I say that this is a pencil. And if you say to him, "This is a pencil." And he says to another man, "This is a pencil." Then what is the difference between his instruction and my instruction? Bob: Kṛṣṇa's mercy allows you to know this now? *Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa's mercy you can take also, provided it is delivered as it is. Now, just like we are instructing people Bhagavad*-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now we are saying that "You give up everything, just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's instruction and our instruction. There is no deviation. So if you receive knowledge in that perfect way, then it is as god as receiving the instruction directly from Kṛṣṇa. But you don't change anything. Bob: When I pray faithfully and reverently, does Kṛṣṇa hear me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Directly? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: From me to Him? Prabhupāda: Because He's within your heart, He's always hearing you. When you are praying or not praying, you are doing some nonsense, He also hearing. And when you pray, that is very good, welcome. But even if you are doing some nonsense, He's hearing. Bob: Is praying louder than nonsense? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: To Kṛṣṇa's ear, is praying louder than nonsense talk. *Prabhupāda: No, He's all*-perfect. He can hear any temper, or any degree of saying. Even if you don't speak, even if you simply think, He can hear you. As soon as you think that "I shall do it," then He hears you. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Bob: But one should pray, is that so? That one should... Prabhupāda: That is his business. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: That is his business. Bob: Listening? Prabhupāda: Praying. Bob: Whose business? You mean... Prabhupāda: Every living entity's. That is the only business. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That is the statement of the *Vedas*. Bob: What does that mean? *Prabhupāda: He supplies everything. Everyone, actually He's supplying. He's supplying food to everyone. So He's father. So why should you not pray, "Father, give me this"? Just like in Christian Bible there is, "Father, give us our daily bread." That is good, they are accepting the Supreme Father. But grown*-up children, they should not ask from the father, but they should be prepared to serve the father. That is bhakti. Bob: My questions you solve so nicely. (Mild laughter) Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Bob: So, should I ask you another question now? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Bob: I have read that we are influenced by the different guṇas, passion, ignorance, ...[break] Prabhupāda: (Speaks to someone is Bengali) [break] Bob: I've read about there are three guṇas, passion, ignorance, and goodness, in life. And I was wishing that you could explain this somewhat, especially what is meant by the mode of ignorance and the mode of goodness. Prabhupāda: Goodness means you can understand things. Knowledge. You can know that there is God, that this world is created by Him, and so on, so on, so many things, actual things. The sun is this, the moon is this, perfect knowledge. Even not perfect, he has got some knowledge. That is goodness. And passion means he identifies with this material body. And he tries to gratify his senses only. That is passion. And ignorance means animal life. He does not know what is God, how to become happy, "why I am in this world." Just like you are taking one animal to the slaughterhouse, it will go. But a man will protest. So this is ignorance. The goat, it is to be killed after five minutes, but if you give him a morsel of grass he's happy, he's eating. Just like a child. You are planning to kill her or kill him, he is happy, he's laughing, because innocent. That is ignorance. Bob: This is... Being in these modes determines your karma, is that correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Determines your karma. *Prabhupāda: According to the association of the modes of nature your activities are being contaminated. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. A man gets higher birth or lower birth according to the association of the guṇa, or the modes of nature. Bob: So cheating and like that, what mode is that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: Cheating. Prabhupāda: Cheating is mixed up passion and ignorance. Just like one man cheats other. That means he wants to obtain something. He's passionate. But he commits some murder. He does not know that "I'll have to suffer for it." So it is a mixture of passion and ignorance. Bob: And what about when somebody helps another person? Prabhupāda: That is goodness. Bob: Why is that goodness? What intelligence is that? I mean, is,... This represents knowledge of what? You said that goodness is when you have knowledge, intelligence. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So helping another person... Prabhupāda: That means he's ignorant, you're trying to enlighten him. Bob: So giving intelligence... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is goodness. Bob: What about just giving assistance, like you give...? Prabhupāda: That is also goodness. Bob: To a beggar who has nothing you give alms. Prabhupāda: Um hmm. So that is goodness. But still... Just like in your Bowery Street, they give some charity, and immediately he purchases one bottle of wine and drinks and lie down flat. (laughter) So that is charity... That is not goodness, that is ignorance. Bob: That charity is ignorance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are three kinds of charities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. Goodness means charity where charity must be given. Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So if anyone gives charity to this movement, that is goodness. Because it is spreading God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is goodness. And if one gives charity for some return, that is passion. And if somebody gives in charity, he does not know what he's going to do, just like the Bowery man, that is ignorance. So our Vedic principle is, Kṛṣṇa says, that yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam. That "Give Me." There is no question of knowing what is going to happen. If Kṛṣṇa takes, that is the perfection of charity. Or anyone who is representative of Kṛṣṇa, he takes, that is perfection. Bob: And what kind of charity is it when you give to, food to somebody who is hungry? Prabhupāda: Well, that is also depends on goodness and passion and ignorance. That example I was giving, that a doctor has forbidden that "This patient should not take any solid food." But if you make charity, "Oh, he..." And he's asking "Give me some solid..." Sometime patient asks. And if you give him solid food, then you are not doing good to him. That is ignorance. Bob: Are the devotees beyond accumulating karma? Have they... Does a devotee, these devotees, do they feel karma? Do they work in these modes? Are they in the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: Are the devotees... *Prabhupāda: They are above goodness. Śuddha*-sattva. Devotees are not in this material world. They're in the spiritual world. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bob: This is a devotee who practices very faithful... Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: A devotee who is very faithful reaches this stage? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee, you can become devotee, as they have become. It is not difficult. Simply you have to engage yourself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. That's all. Bob: I wish to gain more knowledge of God and be able to feel God's presence more. The reason for this is because I feel life has little meaning without this. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you miss this human form of life, then it is a great loss. This is a chance given to the living entity to get out of the entanglement of material existence. Bob: As I feel now... Prabhupāda: (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] Bob: ...thankful that I've been able to... Prabhupāda: Yes, you can learn more and more. Bob: Now I still have my connections in home. Marriage is... I'm engaged and all this... *Prabhupāda: No, no. There are so many marriages. He is married. Marriage is no barrier. I told you, there are four different orders of social life: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So after brahmacārī, one can marry. But that is not obligatory. He may remain naiṣṭhika*-brahmacārī for whole life. But a brahmacārī can marry. So after marriage there is vānaprastha life. Means little aloof from family. Live-husband and wife-separately. That time there is no sex life. And then, when he's fully renounced, detached from the family life, he takes sannyāsa. Bob: Does somebody forget his wife completely then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Forgetting is not very difficult if you try to forget. That's all. Out of sight, out of mind. (laughter) Just like I have got my wife, children, my grandchildren, everything. But out of sight, out of mind. That's all. Therefore vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Everything is nicely arranged by the Vedic system. [break] Prabhupāda: You are feeling warm? Bob: Just tight. Prabhupāda: Too tight. Bob: I was cold before. [break] (Loudspeaker in background is very loud) Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions. Prabhupāda: No, that is my mission, that people should understand the science of God. Because I am convinced that it's a fact. That without again cooperating with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I give this example many times. Just like a screw from the machine fallen down, it has no value. The same screw, when it is again attached with the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Without God, as part and parcel small screw, what is the value? No value. We should again come back to the position of becoming a screw. That is our mission. Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. Well, his reason for coming he said, you may find humorous, was to come..., he heard the hippies were in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: He heard that hippie... [break] ...I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. And he had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he'll come back tomorrow to see devotees. But let me tell you. This is confusing. When he was young... Prabhupāda: He's Indian? Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well. When he was young, said he worshiped Kālī every day very vigorously. But then the floods all came, and the floods came, and the people saw hardship. But now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn't think of what to say to him to add religion to his life, to add God to his life. He says, "After the hereafter," he says, after he dies, "so maybe I'll become part of God, maybe not," he says, but he can't worry about it now. He says he's tried this religious experience; it didn't work. And one reason I ask this is when I go back to America a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kālī or other kinds of religion that they've experienced doesn't work. And I don't know what to say to them to convince them that it's worth trying. Prabhupāda: Hm. You do not try to convince him at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself. Bob: (laughs) Yes, yes. I did... I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out as he was leaving down the road I met him again and talked, "Come back," but... Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: You first of all be convinced and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success. Bob: The devotees have said to me that without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa all the time, you cannot be happy. Without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy. Prabhupāda: At times, not always. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you be Kṛṣṇa conscious you'll feel always happy. Bob: Oh. (laughter) They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's fact. Just like if you are an animal of this land and if you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in the water in any condition. When you're again taken up to the land, then you'll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are thrown. The same example. The machine part and parcel without the machine has no value. But when it is put again into the machine it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we must join Kṛṣṇa. So you can join immediately with Kṛṣṇa by your consciousness. Simply thinking that "I am Kṛṣṇa's, Kṛṣṇa's mine." That's all. Bob: What is that... Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine." Bob: Mind, yes. Prabhupāda: "Mine. My Kṛṣṇa." Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine, Kṛṣṇa is mine, and I am Kṛṣṇa's." That is our actual position. Bob: We are part of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Because everything is generated by the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And everything is energy of Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...tomorrow fasting. Bob: Tomorrow's fasting? Acyutānanda: Tomorrow we fast. Up until evening. Prabhupāda: Up to evening. Acyutānanda: Until the moon comes. Then we take ekādaśī or feast? Prabhupāda: You can feast. Feast. Acyutānanda: So we'll fast up until the rising of the moon and then take feast, full prasādam. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it happens that one day out of the week all the shops close except for one. I've experienced in India that all the... [break] Bob: ...the people coming and jumping on each other trying to get, afraid that the prasādam would finish before they got served. Prabhupāda: No, assure them that we can... "Don't be jumping. We shall supply you." What can be done? [break] ...the place where we shall perform sacrifice, fire sacrifice, the tablet should be taken there and we shall worship. And then we place it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll carry the tablet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To the sacrifice place. Prabhupāda: We shall place the in... what is called, paraphernalia? And then begin. So ten feet deep and six feet wide. So you have ordered for bricks and cement? (loudspeaker in background very loud) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was speaking with Mr. Sanyal and he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: So try to find out. [break] You can talk. [break] (A devotee is speaking in Bengali over the loudspeaker and Prabhupāda mimics him, everyone laughs.) Mahāṁsa? Who is speaking, Mahāṁsa speaking or Bardon? [break] Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have one question. What is the purpose of service minus devotion? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is not service; that is business. (laughter) Just like we have employed some contractor. That is not service; that is business. Is it not? Indian man: Certainly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like sometimes they advertise: "Our customers are our master." Is it not? Sometimes advertise. So this is business, but it is a flowery language only that "Our customers are our masters." Because nobody is a qualified customer unless he pays. Hmm? But service is not like that. Service, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām [Cc. Antya 20.47], "Oh, You do whatever You like; still, You are my worshipable Lord." That is service. "I don't ask any return from You." That is service. When you expect some return that is business. (pause) Very nice road. [break] Bob: I wish to ask you to advise me on how I can come to feel closer to God. I'll be leaving you soon, and I'm... With you... Prabhupāda: You have to purify. Bob: Somewhat, but let me say I come to the temple at times and then I leave, and I'm not sure how much I take with me. Prabhupāda: It will not take much time. Within six months you'll realize. But you have to follow the regulative principles. Then it will be auspicious. Just like these boys and girls are doing. Just see the girl, how she's chanting always. All our girls is... Bob: Yeah, I've seen... *Prabhupāda: They have no tendency for going to cinema or going to hotel, no. Everything all stopped. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ. Anartha means unnecessary things, all rubbish. Bob: I feel that when I go back, though... *Prabhupāda: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Śuddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like, if you don't cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you'll get. Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body, no. Therefore for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma*-saukhyaṁ tv anantam [SB 5.5.1]. Unless you purify your existence, you're hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible. Bob: When I go, I go back to my job in New York, I hope I'll become purer, but I'm sure that I won't become as pure as your devotees here. I don't see myself doing that. Prabhupāda: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning. Now they are pure. Similarly, you can become pure. Just like in your childhood age you were not educated; now you are educated. Bob: So what are the things that I may do? See, if when I go back I must... Prabhupāda: Where you go back? Bob: I'll be going back to Chaibasa, Behar, and to my work there. Prabhupāda: What is there in Chaibasa? Bob: That's where I do my teaching. I live there with... Prabhupāda: So better do not teach. Because you do not know what to teach. Bob: I have, I'm actually, I'll be going... I don't like this so much and I'll be returning to America in May. But while I'm here, this is my agreement to stay in India, that I... Prabhupāda: (Referring to microphone) It will not stay. No, if you are serious, you can keep yourself pure anywhere. It doesn't matter whether you stay in America or India. But you must know how to keep yourself purified. That's all. Bob: You mean by following these principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I went to America. So either in America or in India, I am the same man. Bob: I have tried somewhat to follow since I met you the first time. Prabhupāda: But follow... You must strictly follow if you are serious. Bob: Maybe... O.K., maybe what I say now is the most foolish of all I've said, but let me tell you how I feel. Prabhupāda: No, no, not foolish. I don't say foolish. But imperfect. Bob: O.K., imperfect. But let me tell you. I feel that right now I admire and respect your devotees, but I don't feel as if I'm part of them or even a great desire to be part of them. I feel that I just want to do what is right and come closer to God, and if I just go to a better life next time, I'd be satisfied. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Bob: Maybe that's just material clinging. *Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma*-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to his sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam, "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many... So now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt... Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existential body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not? Bob: Put the iron rod into fire... Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become fire. Bob: Yes... Prabhupāda: Although iron rod. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this body, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, it will act as spiritual, although it is material body. The same example. Iron rod, when it is red hot, it is not longer iron rod, although it is iron rod. You can catch it as iron rod, but touch anywhere it will burn. It has got the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become spiritualized. You'll act spiritually. No more material demands. Bob: How do I do this? Prabhupāda: This process, as they are doing. You have seen. These boys are, our six boys, they are now initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant this beads. Very easy. Bob: Well, um, but... See, when I'm back in Bihar and following my lifestyle there, I..., if I follow all these regulative principles... Some I follow now, but not all... But if I follow all... Prabhupāda: Some means? Bob: Some... Prabhupāda: There are only four regulative principles. Some means three, or two? Bob: Two or three. Prabhupāda: So why not other one? Bob: No, no, I mean I follow one or two now. One or two now I follow. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why not the other three? What is the difficulty? Bob: Umm... Prabhupāda: Which one you follow? Bob: Which one I follow? I am almost vegetarian, but I eat eggs. Prabhupāda: That is also not fully. (laughs) Bob: No, not even fully. But since last time I've become vegetarian, and... Prabhupāda: No, no, vegetarian is no qualification. Bob: Not much. Prabhupāda: You see, vegetarian, the pigeon is vegetarian. The monkey is vegetarian. But most rubbish creature. Bob: Well... Prabhupāda: A monkey is vegetarian, naked sannyāsī, lives in the forest, the most mischievous. Bob: I felt that it was a little bit of progress because it was somewhat difficult at first, then easy, and I had returned to... Prabhupāda: No, you can stick to all regulative principles provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Otherwise it is not possible. Bob: Yeah, but this is it. I have... When I'm back in Bihar and my friends may say... Well, we're sitting in the evening, and there's nothing to do but fight mosquitoes, and they'll say, "How about smoking some marijuana?" And I say, "Sure, there's nothing else to do," and then I sit down and I enjoy myself for the evening. Now, we did this... we got carried away, we were doing it every day and realized we were hurting ourselves and stopped, but still, on occasion we do that.... *Prabhupāda: You have to live with us. Then your friends will not ask you, "What about marijuana?" (Bob laughs) Keep the association of devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-ras... [SB 3.25.25]. We are opening centers to give chance people to associate with us. Why we have taken so much land? Providing for those who are seriously desirous. They will come and live with us. Association is very influential. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. If you associate with drunkards, you become a drunkard. If you associate with sādhu, then you become sādhu. Śyāmasundara: He can come and stay with you in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He could come and stay in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can stay with us in Bombay. But here he wants friend, marijuana. That is the difficulty. Bob: Um, let me ask you about something else. Then maybe I'll come back to this because I'm still... I find that I think of myself too much, and this way you can't think of God so much. One can't think of God. I think of myself in too many places. How can I forget about myself so I can concentrate on other more important things? Prabhupāda: As they have done. Bob: (laughs) You are saying to me that my path... I think what you're saying is my path to purity is to become a devotee. Prabhupāda: Do you hesitate? Bob: Well, I... Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to become a devotee? Bob: For myself... It is... I don't feel so much the desire. I have... First the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, means giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have... Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material life? I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual? Bob: Material. Prabhupāda: Then how we give up material life? Bob: I think how I interpreted it was a desire for material gains. Prabhupāda: That is material life. Bob: You're working towards material gains, not giving up all material. Prabhupāda: Material life means when you desire to gratify your senses, that is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. Instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others' activities? We are using everything: table, chair, bed, this tape recorder, typewriter. So what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Kṛṣṇa. Bob: This I see. The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures that they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures. But see, I haven't... Prabhupāda: Spiritual kinds of pleasure means when you desire to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Just like example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. [break] Bob: Spiritual pleasure, then, is pleasing God. Prabhupāda: Spiritual pleasure means pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And material pleasure means pleasure of senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you try simply to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Bob: I had viewed this as... My thought of pleasing God was to do... Prabhupāda: No, no, don't manufacture your ways of pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose if I want to please you, then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture service. That is not pleasing you. Suppose if I want a glass of water. And if you manufacture that "Swamiji will be more pleased if I give him a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I please you?" And what I order, if you do that, that will please me. Bob: And pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The devotee means who is always pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He has no other business. That is devotee. Bob: Can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly, just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently. And once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. And maybe I don't chant properly. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has got process. You have to adopt the process. Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is when... More you become purified, you feel ecstasy. But this chanting process is purifying process. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this afternoon we were discussing about austerities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: About austerities. If you don't practice voluntarily austerities, then you must involuntarily practice some austerities. Prabhupāda: Yes, under the direction of spiritual master. You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master you have to carry out the order. That is austerity. Śyāmasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to. Prabhupāda: No, because... You have got... You have surrendered to your spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don't like, you have to do it. To please me. Even you don't like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says, "Today is fasting," so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (Loudspeaker in background is very loud.) Śyāmasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don't want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they're forced to austerities. Prabhupāda: That is forced austerity; that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) ...if you don't undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo... Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity. But man can accept austerity. That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner's shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money. So he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore, animal cannot undergo austerity. (Someone else speaks inaudibly about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. [break] Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and Kṛṣṇa sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That's all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities? Chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? (indistinct) I see austerity, call my mother. Bob: What is that? Prabhupāda: Suppose we have this nice foodstuff this mother has brought. So those who are not following austerities, they cannot expect. But because we are following austerity, Kṛṣṇa sends us nice thing. So we are not loser. When you become Kṛṣṇized, then you'll get more comfort than at the present moment. That's a fact. I am living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulty. When, before taking sannyāsa, I was living in Delhi, these boys were taking care of me. Yes. So I had no difficulty, although I was living alone. Devotee: If you don't accept a spiritual discipline, then nature forces so many... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Śyāmasundara: We are so foolish that we are always thinking, "In the future I'll be happy." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is māyā, illusion. That is an ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass. He'll go. The ass is thinking, "Let me go forward little, and I shall get the ass, er, grass." But it is... One feet distant it always remains. That is ass*-ism. (laughter) That is not... Everyone is thinking, "Let me go a little forward, and I'll get it. [break] ...get it, be very happy." [break] Bob: I thank you so much for... *Prabhupāda: Hmm? [break] Don't talk l*-e-a-v-e. But talk l-i-v-e. Bob: I, I, I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But... Prabhupāda: Don't return. Bob: I should stay tomorrow, yes. Prabhupāda: Stay here. Bob: You tell me to, I'll stay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're a very good boy. Bob: O.K. Thank you. [break] Prabhupāda: It is very simple. The living entities forgetting Kṛṣṇa, they are in this material world. Kṛṣṇa means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes, everything. Bob: What was that last? Prabhupāda: Pastimes. Bob: Pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like, when you speak of king, it means king's government, king's palace, king's queen, king's son, secretaries, military strength, everything. Is it not? Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Kṛṣṇa (it) means all energies of Kṛṣṇa. That is complete by saying "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa." Rādhā represents all the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, the living entities are also included. Because the living entities are energies, different energies of Kṛṣṇa, superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that means material existence. The whole world is not serving Kṛṣṇa. They are serving Kṛṣṇa in a different way. they are serving Kṛṣṇa indirectly. Just like disobedient citizens, they serve the government indirectly. They have come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So in the prison house they're forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly, all the living entities here, they're godless. Either by ignorance or by his will, he doesn't like to accept the supremacy of God. Demonic. So we are trying to bring them in their original condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. [break] Bob: I'd like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about, just medicine. I went to go, I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn't go in the water. Some felt I should because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn't because I have a cold. And we were talking, and I don't understand. Some... Devotees, do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past? Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Bob: But when one is... Prabhupāda: Any kind of distress we suffer, it is due to our impious activities in the past. Bob: But when one is removed from karmic influence... Prabhupāda: Yes? Bob: ...does he still get sick? Prabhupāda: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force. What is called physically, this... Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a devotee who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, even he's found that he's suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Bob: But what about a perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee? *Prabhupāda: Perfected soul means twenty*-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection. Transcendental position. Perfection means to be engaged in his original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Anyone who comes to Me, that is the..." Saṁsiddhiḥ labhate param. Saṁsiddhi. Perfection, complete perfection. Saṁsiddhi. Siddhi and saṁsiddhi. Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization. And saṁsiddhi means devotion, after Brahman realization. Bob: Could you just say that last thing again please? Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sam means complete. Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And siddhi means perfection. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that one who goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has attained the complete perfection. So perfection means when one realizes that he's not this body, he's spirit soul. Brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. That is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And saṁsiddhi means after Brahman realization, when one is engaged in devotional service. Therefore, one who is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called saṁsiddhi. Bob: I, I, I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: This is a result of your past karma? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Prabhupāda: Yes, escapes. No more karma. For a devotee, no more karma reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee, and you... Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, I don't consider I am the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! No! Prabhupāda: You are the best devotee. Bob: (laughter) Oh, no! But see, you say, what you say..., it always, always seems right. Prabhupāda: Yes, but... Bob: So then you must be the best devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes, the thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, he comes to the second*-class devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sees there is no need of preaching; everyone is devotee. (Bob laughs) Yes. He sees no more nondevotee, all devotee. *Yaśodānandana: Uttama*-adhikārī? *Prabhupāda: Uttama*-adhikārī. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī. She does not see anyone nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī. Bob: Who is this? Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort. Bob: Ah. *Prabhupāda: Anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the best devotee. He's better than me." And Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse. That is best devotee. But it is not to be imitated, "I have become best devotee. Therefore I have stopped." That is... Actually, that is a different stage. So even the best devotee... Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually, ācārya, but he comes to the second stage. Īśvare tad*-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. He has the vision of dviṣat, somebody envious of God. But it is not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious to God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. He says that "I am lowest than the worm in the stool." Bob: Who was saying this? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... The author of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha [Cc. Ādi 5.205]. He's not making a show, he's feeling like that, that "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, I am not engaged." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I would have been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa I would have died long ago. I am living; that is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." That is the vision of the best devotee. He's so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he sees, "Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God." That is best devotee. Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody's liberation? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Not, what is that word? Prabhupāda: Imitate. Devotees: Imitate, imitate. Bob: Oh, ācchā, ācchā, I see. Imitate. (pause) [break] Śyāmasundara: ...you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that... Couldn't sometimes disease be that, due to that? Caused by that? *Prabhupāda: You see, Kṛṣṇa says that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. So Kṛṣṇa's so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he's not Kṛṣṇa, so sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu forbidden that "Don't make many śiṣyas, many disciples." But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we suffer. But that's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many disciple is a risky job unless he's able to assimilate all the sins. (pause) [break]... patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo. He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That is... That idea is in Bible. Just like Jesus Christ take all the sinful reaction of all people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of spiritual master. Because he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. So Kṛṣṇa takes all responsibility. Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, apāpa-viddham. He cannot be attacked by any sinful reaction. But a living entity may be subjected sometimes, because he's small. Big fire, small fire. On a small fire if you put some big things, (chuckling) then the fire itself may be extinguished. In the big fire, whatever you put, that's all right. Finished. The big fire can consume anything. Bob: So Christ's suffering was of that nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Was Christ's suffering this... Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that he took the sinful reaction of all the people, therefore he suffered. Bob: I see. Prabhupāda: He said... That is the Bible, that he has taken all the sinful reactions of the people and he sacrificed his life. But these Christian people, they have made it a law that "Christ will suffer and we shall do all nonsense." Such great fools they are. They are... "Let Jesus Christ make contract for taking all one sinful reaction, and we will go on with all nonsense." That is their religion. This... They are not in sense that "Christ is so magnanimous that he took all our sins and he has suffered... We stop all these sins!" They have not come to that sense. They have taking it very easily: "Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we do all nonsense." Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupāda: Yes. They should have been ashamed that "Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us. Instead of... We are continuing the sinful activities still. He asked everyone, 'Thou shall not kill,' and we are indulging in killing." And "Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us, take all the sinful reaction." This is going on. [break] ...should be very much cautious that "For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer. So I'll not commit a pinch of sinful action." That is the duty of the disciple. After initiation his all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, the spiritual master has to suffer. They should be sympathetic for this, that "For my sinful activities my spiritual master will suffer." [break] ...attacked with some disease it is due to the sinful activities of the disciples. Exactly like Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on account of the sinful activities of others. [break] ...forbidden, "Don't make many disciples." But we do because we are preaching. Never mind, let us suffer; still, we shall accept. [break]... question was that when I suffer it is due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? Bob: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is my misdeed, that I accept a disciple who is nonsense. That is my misdeed. Bob: This happens on occasion? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is sure to happen because we are accepting so many men. But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious. That "My spiritual master saved me. I may not put him again into these sufferings." [break] When the spiritual master is in suffering, Kṛṣṇa saves him. Kṛṣṇa thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Kṛṣṇa is there. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person... Prabhupāda: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes so that the disciples may know that "Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master is suffering." [break] Bob: ...very well now. Prabhupāda: I'm always well. [break] ...well in this sense, even there is suffering, I know Kṛṣṇa will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities. [break] Bob: But let us say, when I, in the town I live in I drink boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water? If I have been good enough not to get a disease, then I may drink any water. And if I have been not doing proper, then I shall get diseased... Prabhupāda: So boiled water is any water also. Boiled water is included within any water. Bob: But, you see, I drink that to prevent disease. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you are in the material world, what is physical laws, you cannot neglect that. Just like if you go to a jungle, there is tiger. It is known that it will attack you. Why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long he has got some physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: "Oh, I have become a devotee. I challenge everything." That is foolishness. Anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ. Viṣaya, these physical necessities, the devotee is advised to accept the necessities of life without any attachment. Physical law is take the boiled water, but if boiled water is not available, does it mean he'll not drink water? If it is not available, you drink ordinary water. [break] We take Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. But while in touring, in hotels sometimes we have to take some food in the hotel. Does it mean, "Oh, I do not take any foodstuff from the hotel, I shall starve"? If I starve, then I'll be weak, I cannot preach. [break] Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality in that... Prabhupāda: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya. Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have, thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Sometimes we fast, that does mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast. Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual ... Prabhupāda: Yes, in full. Bob: ...taste for different things? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Kṛṣṇa. Suppose I like this thing. Kṛṣṇa says, "No. You cannot use it." Then they are sacrificed. It is for Kṛṣṇa's sake. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe. Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if Kṛṣṇa does not like it, he won't take. Bob: And how does he know which food Kṛṣṇa likes him to take? *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. You have to know from Kṛṣṇa. When you... Just like, what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the lawbooks. Is it not? Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa likes and not likes, you get from the śāstra. You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. He says definitely. Positively He says, that "I like these things." So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take prasādam. Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Therefore all the gopīs, they're trying to push Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuñja*-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā **. That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gopī. All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa. Not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti. That is called prema, love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this." Bob: There is, some prasādam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasāda's are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat. Prabhupāda: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, you should accept everything. You cannot make, "I like this. I do not like this." That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination that means you have not appreciated what is prasāda. (pause) Devotee: What if there is someone... This... (Static)... likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some prasādam... Prabhupāda: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, that's all right. Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasādam for Kṛṣṇa, but he does not make it so good, and it is... Prabhupāda: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Kṛṣṇa will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Kṛṣṇa banana. So he was so absorbed in thought he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Kṛṣṇa was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that "He's giving Me in the devotion." So Kṛṣṇa can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything. Devotee: But the devotion is not there. Like in India... Prabhupāda: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it. Devotee: In India, somebody said... Prabhupāda: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not... Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion. That out of... Bhaktyā, tad aham aśnāmi. Bhaktyā upahṛtam, real thing is devotion. Not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world. But He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26], tad aham aśnāmi bhaktyā upahṛtam. "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love," that is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand... Therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a nondevotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion. That's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; *then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. He's on the mental plane. So he has no good qualification. [break] The time? Śyāmasundara: Six o'clock. Twenty more minutes, twenty minutes. [break] Prabhupāda: It is... Question and Answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the... Bob: I still have question on the prasāda. *Prabhupāda: Sūta Gosvāmī says, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka*-maṅgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ [SB 1.2.5]. Kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-maṅgalam, either by the question or by the answer. Bob: I still have..., do not understand so much about what you're telling me about the prasādam. But if you like I'll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About prasādam. Prabhupāda: Prasādam is always prasādam. So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasādam. Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is also due to ... not appreciate. But Kṛṣṇa should be... The cook should have consideration that Kṛṣṇa must be offered first*-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Kṛṣṇa can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any prasādam, even if it is spicy. [break] Hiraṇyakaśipu gave his son poison and he drank it nectarine. So for the devotee even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. [break] ...she also offered Kṛṣṇa poison, but Kṛṣṇa's so nice that "She took Me as My mother." So He took the poison and delivered her. Kṛṣṇa does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side; he takes only the good side. [break] He wanted to make business with my Guru Mahārāja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that "He has come forward to give me some service. So whatever he wanted he gave him." Bob: Business with you, what was that? Business with who? Prabhupāda: That is, I am talking about my Guru Mahārāja. Bob: Oh, oh, I see. [break] ...question on prasādam, if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasādam? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything? *Bob: Oh*-h. Prabhupāda: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. [break] ...point? Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee, I have got discrimination, why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate or digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are... A devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura. So a devotee knows his position and he's intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. [break] ...it is posted? The... Specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajña. Yajña means to act for satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said... So shall I stop this fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb. Bob: I have a sweater here if you like. *Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajñas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajña is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law*-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma, and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma. Bad karma, you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma. So... (microphone noise) ...some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma. You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that? Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle. Prabhupāda: Ankle? Oh, there was some... [break] Bob: ...who is not very aware of God, but... Prabhupāda: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal. Bob: What about the people in the...the innocent people? Prabhupāda: The animal is very innocent. You cut its throat, it won't protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just... To become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura. So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent. Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is? Prabhupāda: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation, he's intelligent. If he does not know what he is... The animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he's body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he's not intelligent. Bob: What about a person who does, tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught. But he stays honest anyway, a person like that. Is that some kind of good karma? *Prabhupāda: Yes, to become honest is also good karma. How to become good man, they're described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Daivī sampad and asurī sampad. These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if you become qualified with the daivī sampad, then daivī sampad vimokṣāya [Bg. 16.5], then you'll be liberated. And nibandhāyāsurī matā. And if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you'll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They're so much ignorant. They do not know... Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean by liberation?" Can you answer? And if I ask you, "What do you mean by entanglement?" Can you answer? These words are there in the Vedic literature. Liberation and entanglement. But at the present moment they do not know even what is liberation, what is entanglement. They're so ignorant and foolish, and still, they're proud of their advancement in knowledge. Can you answer what is liberation? You are a professor, teacher, but if I ask you, can you explain what is liberation? Bob: Not adequately because if I could explain, then I would be becoming liberated very fast. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast and slow liberation? (laughs) There is no question of liberation. It is neither fast nor slow. You first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking or understanding fast and slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation? Bob: Umm... Prabhupāda: I am asking. You daily ask me; I am asking you today. Bob: Okay, yes. (laughs) I'll think for a moment. Śyāmasundara: Shall I turn this off, this fan? It's cool now. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, he'll do. Where is Nanda Kumāra? He can do. [break] ...is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is called mukti. So that mukti is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. One should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing because nobody knows what is his original position. And how to act properly. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpam. People are generally acting differently. But they do not know what is differently and what is properly. So much ignorant are the modern population about their life. It is very, very awkward position. They do not know. Bob: [break] ...who is honest? Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is honesty. How he can be honest? If you know what is honesty, then you can become honest. But you do not know what is honesty. What is honesty? First of all explain. Bob: Honesty is doing what you really feel is right. Prabhupāda: Then a thief is feeling that "I must steal to provide my children. It is right." Does it mean that he's honest? Everyone thinks... The butcher, he thinks, "It is my life. I must cut throat of the animals daily." Just like that, what is that, vyādha, vyādha... When Nārada Muni met him? Devotee: Oh, Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes, Mṛgāri. "Why you are killing in this way?" "Oh, it is my business. My father taught it." So he was honestly doing that. So feeling of honesty depends on different culture. A thief's culture is different. He thinks stealing is honesty. Bob: So what is honesty? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my question. (laughter) Real honesty is that you should not encroach upon other's property. This is honesty. Just like this is my table. If you want to take it away while going, is that honesty? No. So therefore the simple definition of honesty is that you should not encroach upon other's right. That is honesty. Bob: So somebody who is honest will be in the mode of goodness. Would that be correct? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Because mode of goodness means knowledge. So if you know, if you're well conversant that "This table does not belong to me; it belongs to Swamiji," so you'll not try to take it away. Therefore one must know, be thoroughly well conversant; then he can be honest. Bob: So... Now, you had said the mode of goodness was knowledge of God, but somebody may be honest without having very much knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bob: You know, without being honest, without thinking they're honest because it is God's wishes, they just feel like they ought to be honest. Prabhupāda: No. God wishes everyone should be honest. Why God should think otherwise? Bob: So you may follow God's wishes without knowing you are following God's wishes. Like somebody may be in the mode of... Prabhupāda: No. Without knowing following, that is absurd. Without knowing following that is absurd. You must know that this is the order of God. And if you follow that, then that is honesty. Bob: But somebody would not be honest without knowing God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is the supreme proprietor. See... God is the supreme proprietor and He's the supreme enjoyer and He's the supreme friend. That is the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If anyone knows these three things, then he is in full knowledge. These three things only, that God is the proprietor of everything, God is friend of everyone, and God is the enjoyer of everything. Just like the same example, in your body... Everyone knows in the body the stomach is the enjoyer. Not the hands, legs, eyes, ears. They are simply to help the stomach. Eyes, the vulture goes seven miles up to see where is food for the stomach. Is it not? Bob: That's so. Prabhupāda: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Kṛṣṇa, God. He's the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer. Or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not? Bob: It is so. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere... He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yayha Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he'll not accept, he'll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things. And that is the cause of our trouble. But Bhagavad*-gītā, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said, Bob: Ahh. *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He'll not spare it. So we have to flatter, "Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper. Hundred rupees, it is nothing. It is paper." (laughter) And he will, "Oh, yes, take. That's nice. That two*-paise lozenges is very nice. It is sweet." So we have to do like that. Why? Because he'll go to hell taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Bob: And then he may not go to hell. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Kṛṣṇa it will be accounted, "Oh, this man has given a farthing." This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti. Ajñāta-sukṛti means doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to act very piously without his knowledge. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mahad-vicalanaṁ nṝṇāṁ gṛhīṇāṁ dīna-cetasām. Dīna-cetasām. They're very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons work(?) just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is saintly person's study. Bob: That is what? Prabhupāda: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing from anyone. [break] Bob: I think of people I know who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. Bob: Oh, yeah. Are not very, are just slightly God conscious, but still these people are honest to the extent they don't take, they don't take from other people at all and they try to be honest with other people. Will these... Prabhupāda: But he does not take from other people, but he takes from God. Bob: So these people are half good? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: These people then are half good? Prabhupāda: Not half God. Bob: Half good, good. Prabhupāda: Not good. If he does not know this principle, that God is the proprietor... Others' thing, what do you mean by others' thing? Bob: Like, people I'm thinking of, they're poor people who need money and food, but... Prabhupāda: Everyone needs money. Everyone needs. Who is not poor? Anyone find out. So many gentlemen sitting here. Who is not in need of food and money? You are also in need of money. So what do you distinguish poor and rich? Everyone needs. If that is your definition, if one needs money and food, everyone needs money and food. So everyone is poor. Bob: So, but, well, I was thinking of terms of just people who are relatively poor. Prabhupāda: No relatively. Relatively maybe. You are more hungry than me. But that does not mean you are not hungry or I am not hungry. I don't feel hungry now, that does not mean I do not feel hungry or I am not hungry. For the time being you may not be hungry. Tomorrow you'll be hungry. Bob: What I feel is that somehow these people that... Everybody around them may be stealing, but they still stand up and don't steal. That these people somehow deserve something good to happen to them. Prabhupāda: But the man who is thinking that he's not stealing, he's also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever he's accepting, he's stealing. Bob: Is he less of a thief? Prabhupāda: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal? Bob: But, maybe it isn't... If I know it is yours and I take it I'm a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody's and I take it. Prabhupāda: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupāda: How do you take it without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, "It must belong to somebody." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is "Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it." Is it not stealing? Bob: It is stealing. Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he's caught he's arrested and he's punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting... Suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property? Bob: No. *Prabhupāda: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs you are a thief. So you think, "I'm honest." But factually you are thief. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. You must remember Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities. "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa*-deva mūrti. This is honesty. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber, these qualifications. Therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girirāja? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is not dogmatism, this is fact. (Speaks to someone in Bengali) [break] ...you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty? Bob: In a way, in a way. Prabhupāda: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there another way? Girirāja? Girirāja: No. Prabhupāda: Is there any alternative? To defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. "Any question?" Till now. And Kṛṣṇa gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, "Any question?" Bob: Now...I have none. Prabhupāda: In London, we had, how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conway Hall? Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Conway Hall. Prabhupāda: Conway Hall, yes. Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Prabhupāda: So after every meeting I was asking, "Any question?" Bob: Did you get many questions? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter) Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish? Prabhupāda: Foolish means who has no knowledge. Bob: No knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is foolish. Is it not foolish? Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I have one personal question, can I ask? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week. It was named "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals." Prabhupāda: Hmm. (Chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness. Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask... Prabhupāda: Asking, before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They're regularly cruel to the animals, and they're making society. Bob: Maybe this is... Prabhupāda: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, "Goodman and Company." A gang of thieves are giving signboard, "Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such signboard. Śyāmasundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their philosophy is that the animal, when it is not properly nourished that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Like that, theory. Is it not? Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They say, "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much..." That theory is coming in communist country. That an old man, grandfather, is suffering. Better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation they eat, make a festival, by killing great*-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes. Śyāmasundara: They eat them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed. Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that "Instead of suffering, just kill him." Girirāja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things; therefore you are sinful. Is it not? Girirāja: Yes. (pause) But there are some things we're instructed to do... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Girirāja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which even though we try to do we cannot do perfectly yet. Prabhupāda: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is? Girirāja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to... *Prabhupāda: That is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bhāgavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Kṛṣṇa excuses. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is said, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk [Bg. 9.30]. By, due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit, habit is second nature, he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that, that "I have done this." And should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the māyā is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Kṛṣṇa excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that "I am a devotee, I am chanting. Therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified." That is the greatest offense. (end) *Room Conversation with John Griesser (later initiated as Yadubara Däsa) -*-March 10, 1972, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a brāhmaṇa will never accept a girl born into a śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) means family member is respectful. Your family consideration is very... During marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family traditions, then horoscope. The so*-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selects... No. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga(?) There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer will select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition. What is the tradition of the boy's father's family, mother's family, so many things they calculate, then the marriage settlement, "Yes." And the boy might not have seen the girl. There is no necessity of the boy seeing the girl or the girl seeing the boy. There is no necessity. After marriage, when the marriage ceremony is performed, then the boy and girl can see one another: "Oh, she is my wife." (laughter) "He is my husband." That. (aside) So. You can begin. Oh, this is another magazine, Earth. Yadubara: It's a new magazine, and this is the second issue out in America. It promised to be a very good magazine, and it hasn't turned out to be so. It's just another slick magazine. Prabhupāda: Well, unless magazines are reduced to such position, it will not be sold. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They want to make business... All these pictures are yours? No. Yadubara: No, just the ones on Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. Yadubara: ...I'm happy to say. Prabhupāda: So who will go to Hong Kong? (long silence, then two indistinct replies) Śyāmasundara: Shall we decide now, or shall we wait until tomorrow? Devotee: I met one man from Hong Kong yesterday, Dr. Bali, and he said he'd give us financial help in Hong Kong. I will go to see him this morning. (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also? Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also, the same men? The same two men will go to Singapore and Hong Kong. (devotees chant japa for several minutes) Do you think Revatīnandana could go? You said Revatīnandana should go? Prabhupāda: He can go. (japa continues) Are you getting some interest with our association? Yadubara: Yes, I am. I feel the effects of chanting very much. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yadubara: It's very pleasant. Prabhupāda: And if you have got any doubts, any questions, you can inquire. That is required. Yadubara: I have been asking questions of devotees. It's hard for me to comprehend some of the things in the scriptures. I just don't understand. Prabhupāda: No, apart from scripture, from your personal understanding you can place questions. People, generally, they have no idea of God. We are placing the factual God. That is very difficult to understand. Generally they think it is an idea, fiction. But we don't think like that. We have got clear conception of God. That is the difference between our Society and all any other religious groups. They have no clear idea of God. They simply say that there is God, God is great, but no clearer. Yadubara: I think a lot of other societies make compromises. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yadubara: Many other societies make compromises. Many other religious groups make compromises in their doctrine. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because they have no clear idea. They cannot push forward their concept. Just like the other day (indistinct) lady, she asked if Kṛṣṇa was a naughty boy. Yes, because He is God He must be naughty boy. Otherwise, wherefrom this idea of naughty boy comes if that quality is not in God? God is the origin of everything, creator of everything. So if He hasn't got this naughtiness in His person, then how this thing comes to be? That is the Vedānta version, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The Supreme Absolute Truth is that from which or from whom everything emanates. So wherefrom this naughtiness comes if it is not in the person of God? Wherefrom this stealing propensity comes if it is not in God? But because He is absolute, His stealing is also as good as his blessing. Mākhan*-cora. Kṛṣṇa is stealing butter, that is worshiped, mākhana, by the very name. Just like in another temple, Kṣīra-cora-gopīnātha. Gopīnātha is known as condensed milk thief, Kṣīra-cora. He is famous by the name cora, thief. But that cora and this cora, you cannot compare. He is famous as cora, or thief, but thousands of people go every day to worship that cora, that thief. And in the material, if one is known as thief, then thousands of people will beat him with shoes. (laughter) That is the difference. If you say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa was a thief, then I can become a thief," then your will be beating of shoes on your head, and Kṛṣṇa will be eternally worshiped because He is thief. That is the difference. That is Absolute. He will be worshiped as thief, and He will be worshiped as very honest. That is Absolute. (aside:) No, no, this (indistinct) is not good. I will take little fruit. *Kṛṣṇa is a woman*-hunter. That is the highest pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, rāsa-līlā. But here if a man becomes woman-hunter, he will be most abominable person. That is the mistake of the people: they consider Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā [Bg. 9.11]. They are rascals, fools, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. This sense has to be learned-Kṛṣṇa, how He is Absolute in all circumstance. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Just go and tell little lie to Droṇācārya." People will be surprised, how God is teaching somebody that "You go and tell this lie"? So they become bewildered. So one has to understand actually what is Kṛṣṇa's position in all circumstances. That requires intelligence. (aside:) What is this? Śyāmasundara: It's salt and pepper. *Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to learn how Kṛṣṇa is always God in any circumstance. And if he can understand this philosophy, then Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ ye jānāti tattvataḥ. "My activities, My birth, they are all transcendental. One who understands in truth," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], "after leaving this body, he no more comes to this material." That means we can be liberated simply by understanding His activities. All the qualities are described in the Nectar of Devotion. He has got sixty-four qualities. Unlimited qualities, but for our understanding, Rūpa Gosvāmī only discussed sixty-four. Just see, that lady was speaking that she speaks to thousands and thousands of people. How ignorant she is about God. She was inquiring, "Kṛṣṇa is not..." That means she cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. And she is leader, thousands of people she is speaking. What is the use of her speaking if she has no clear idea? This is going on. Useless speaking. In India also, so many fools, they are accepted as very perfect. Just like Gandhi, take Gandhi. Where was Gandhi? In spiritual consciousness, he is nothing. Nothing, no value. But if we say in the public, they will be angry, "Oh!" But actually there is no value, no spiritual value. He is known all over the world as a great spiritualist. He was a moralist, that's all. That is not a qualification for understanding God. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, "Any activities sanctioned in the revealed scriptures and aiming at the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are accepted by saintly teachers as the regulative principles of devotional service. If somebody regularly executes such service unto the Personality of Godhead under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master, then gradually he rises to the platform of serving in pure love of God." Prabhupāda: That nonviolence. Kṛṣṇa is number one violent. (chuckles) Number one. There is no limit of His violence. Just see. Yadubara: Don't you have... In the material world, sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right and sometimes use violence? Prabhupāda: Only satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa is right. All wrong. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, that is right. Otherwise everything wrong. Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India, and he felt they should be thrown out. Prabhupāda: Surat? Devotee: In Surat. Prabhupāda: Surat, what happened? One man questioned? Devotee: A man in Surat brought up the question of whether the British should be removed from India. Prabhupāda: British? I do not understand. What is his real question? Śyāmasundara: Should the British have been violently thrown out of India? Yadubara: But if somebody is stepping on you, then you should take action to remove those people. Prabhupāda: Yes, our position is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not for personal self. Ordinary world activities. Serving Kṛṣṇa and the result of such service is the same. In the material world, doing something and result of the doing is different. Our means and end is the same. Just like Kṛṣṇa advises Yudhiṣṭhira to speak lie to Droṇācārya. It is a means. The means is also Kṛṣṇa, and the end is also Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute. Absolute... We must have clear conception of what is the Absolute. In any circumstances, the quality of the Absolute remains the same. What was the question in Surat? Devotee: Whether the British should have been forcibly removed from India. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. That is clearly stated in the śāstras. If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money-so many list*-he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha. But in devotion, there is no karma-bandha. As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāva-manyeta karhicit [SB 11.17.27]. "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāva-manyeta karhicit, "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta, "Never be envious of the ācārya, thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān [SB 11.17.27]. Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya, he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya, he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent. But if he is criticized, then that man who criticizes, he becomes... Of course, he must be ācārya, not a bogus. Ordinary man cannot transgress the laws, but Kṛṣṇa and His representative, ācārya, might be sometimes seen that he has transgressed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān [SB 11.17.27]. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Vaiṣṇava ācārya, his activities is not understood even by the wisest man. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Ācārya, guru, he is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, being completely freed from all material affection. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Everything... Everyone has got some material desire to fulfill, but a guru or ācārya has no such business. That is the symptom of ācārya. He has no more any material business. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has finished all business of material satisfaction. That is the symptom of ācārya. And śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. And he has taken full bath in the ocean of transcendental (indistinct). Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21], one should surrender to such spiritual master. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, when he is actually serious about inquiring the transcendental subject matter. Otherwise there is no need of accepting guru or ācārya. He has no business. If one is not interested in the transcendental subject matter... Just like so many people come, they have no interest. Unnecessarily they talk and waste time. As soon as I asked that man that "If I say something, whether you will accept?" He said, "If I like it, then I shall accept." Then why come to waste my time to inquire from me? Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. When you go to inquire something from a person, you must fully surrender there, or you must find out a person where you can fully surrender. Otherwise, don't put any questions. Your waste of time, his waste of time. Because he will not accept. Suppose if you go to a physician, you are diseased, and the physician says, "All right, I shall give you medicine." And if you say, "Yes, I shall accept the medicine if I like it," then why do you go to that physician? What is the meaning? The physician, one physician doctor friend, long..., forty years ago, he prescribed one of my patent medicines. And the patient little protested because it is Indian-made. He was Eurasian. So as soon as he questioned, "What is this medicine, Indian-made?" "Yes, it is Indian-made. If you have no such faith, don't come to me." He flatly said, "Don't come to me." That should be the position of the physician or ācārya. If you go there, you should accept whatever he says. If you are in doubt, then don't go there. That is the position. It is freedom. It is not that you have to accept some ācārya particular by canvassing. No, you should be inspired that "Yes, here I can surrender, here I can gain something." Then surrender. In the spiritual science, there is no bluffing. Everything must be very clear-cut. Otherwise it will be not very satisfactory. [break] Hear this sound, ca-caw caw. (laughter) Because nobody takes this rooster. Yamunā: Oh, that's chicken? Oh. Prabhupāda: No, what is... Yamunā: Peacock? Prabhupāda: Peacock, yes. Yak, yak, like that. That sound he makes. Guru dāsa: And kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: We can hear kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana and bell in the temple, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong. This sound we will hear early in... (sound of rooster crowing in background) *Prabhupāda: In Hawaii, this disturbance is there. Always, ca*-caw, caw. (laughter) Devotee: There's not so much at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: There's not chickens at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: No, in neighborhood. In Hawaii, they are very much fond of. Some of them eat dogs also. Devotee: Yes, the Filipinos eat dogs. Prabhupāda: Filipino. Yadubara: Chinese also sometimes. *Prabhupāda: Dog*-eaters. Yadubara: Sometimes monkeys also. Prabhupāda: Monkey? Yadubara: Um hm. Monkey brain. It's very rare, but it's done. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Yadubara: Chinese. Prabhupāda: Chinese, they eat everything. (laughter) They eat rats also. Rats, snakes. They are caṇḍālas. Yadubara: They say Chinese are very practical and that they will make use of anything. *Prabhupāda: They eat man also. Yes. There was a case in Calcutta, they were eating man. They will call a hawker, "Come in, I shall purchase." And as soon as he enters, he never comes back. There were two hawkers. So one entered the house and other was waiting. But when he saw that he is not coming, he went to the police, that "My friend, he went but he is not coming." The police inquired and made a search, whole house, there were so many human bones, they're eating. Man*-eater. Man-eater, in Africa there are many. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: That is also. And they eat white man very... They like white. Yadubara: In the pot. Prabhupāda: They will mislead some white man and... In India also there is this class. In Assam side. They eat man. Man means they regularly sacrifice before the Goddess Durgā and eat. (indistinct), Rāvaṇa's brother. The Red Indians, they also eat in America. Do they not? Yamunā: They used to. There are no left anymore. Prabhupāda: "Used to" means who knows what they are doing now. Yamunā: The white men came and killed them. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they kill for eating. That is..., fighting or for taking possession, killing, that is everywhere. that is not extraordinary. But killing for eating a man, that is extraordinary. (chuckles) *Devotee: That's only in Kali*-yuga, yes, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Only in... Prabhupāda: No, no, all the yugas. More or less. (aside:) So when we shall have to go? Devotee: I'll just see if the car is here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...take away Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. The Japanese, they also eat everything? No. Devotee: Not now. Prabhupāda: Some of them? Devotee: In times of war, I think all people... Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but generally. *Devotee: No, they don't. In China, the island of Taiwan, the original inhabitants, they were known as man*-eaters. *Prabhupāda: Man*-eaters? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this Calcutta story is not a story, it is fact. Hm? Guru dāsa: I was asking Yamunā about the tape. Prabhupāda: Tape? Guru dāsa: About this tape recording. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not the question of "the Chinese are eating, I am not eating." It is a question that how many number of different types of body I got. It is not that I am talking of Chinaman eating man or dog. I may be in this form, next life. So, therefore, the problem is how to stop this transmigration of the soul. That is the problem. Not that because the Chinese man eats something else other than I eat, that does not mean that I am very much... [break] Therefore, we have to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to have next. That is human civilization. But they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. They do not believe in God. They do not believe in anything. Simply just like animals. This life*-eating, sleeping, mating-do it to your best capacity. That is Kali-yuga. They have no knowledge, neither they are interested to know. Mandāḥ. And even they become little interested of spiritual..., a hodgepodge, no clear idea. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo [SB 1.1.10]. And unfortunate, harassed in every field of life. And hy upadrutāḥ. And over and above everything, they are always disturbed by external enemies. This is the position of Kali-yuga. And this life shortened, duration of life. So how they can advance by following the regular Vedic process? It is not possible. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma [Ādi 17.21]. No car? Śyāmasundara: Not yet come. Prabhupāda: When? Śyāmasundara: He will ring as soon as it comes. He telephoned it is on its way. It should be here any moment. *Prabhupāda: They are so slow. They do not understand the spiritual value of life, and simply they are satisfied with something hodgepodge, that's all. The entire population of the present*-day world. Just like the hippies. There are so many hippies. They want something spiritual, but no clear... Something hodgepodge, that's all. Yadubara: Has this happened before, the material wealth that we have now? Has it happened in past ages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Technological advancement, scientific? *Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali*-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if in all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life. If we do not make our..., revive our lost relationship with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, then the human form of life means knowingly you are drinking poison. This Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they are Vedic songs written in plain Bengali language. *People are already mad, and the so*-called rascal leaders making them more and more mad. That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās [SB 7.5.31]. So-called scientists, so-called religious leaders, all rascals. If we say that all rascals, we are only intelligent, (laughter) they will not be very happy. But that will be fact, try to understand it. Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: They have no conception of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They just don't understand. Prabhupāda: Only intelligent person can understand. If you can understand, then you are intelligent. Are you understanding or not? Yadubara: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then why you are not understanding yet? We have given free scope. What is your reason of not understanding? Yadubara: I think I understand a little bit, gradually. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you understand little bit, that will give you great benefit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato. If you understand little, that means your door is open. Just like sometimes there is boil. If little mouth is open, that means that is the beginning of oozing out all the pus. It will gradually open, and that is the natural venue. Open and it will be cured. So little understanding is also very good. Then you will understand further. What you have understood now? Yadubara: What have I understood? I understand that the chant has potency, has some meaning for me. And I understand on the basis of what I've done before, on the basis of my experience, what I've seen around me, I've seen that conditions are not good. And I've seen the conditions in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are much better and the feeling is much better. Prabhupāda: That is very good sign. Yes. Yadubara: So I think it must have some worth. There must be something here. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can discuss with these boys and girls. Try to understand. Here there is nothing dogmatic. Even something appears to be dogmatic, it is not dogmatic. Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Hm? Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, if we just associate long enough, then it will act upon you. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if we open our heart, then open*-heartedly, then it will be nice. No reservation. And that open-heartedness means free from designation. That is open-heartedness. If I think, "Oh, I am American. Why shall I take this Indian philosophy?" Or if I think, "I am Christian. Why shall I take the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā?" then it will not work. One has to be free from these designations. Then it will be easy. I am... God is God, and I am also part and parcel of God, my relationship with God. So let me understand what is that relationship, what is God, what I am. That freedom, that open-heartedness will make it. But if I try to understand as Christian, as Englishman, as Japanese, as Indian, then it will be difficult. Many of our students joined, even initiated, but they could not make them free from these stereotyped ideas. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One must be free from the... Aiye aiye. So let us go. Take the box. [break] Devotee: I'll try and please you, but I don't think I can do such a nice job. Prabhupāda: I have seen the Sai's photo. From his photograph, it appears he has a guru. From his appearance, I can understand. Devotee: I feel that it is my duty to see that the devotees who are staying at the other temples are respectful and are following your wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Some things that Sai mentioned in that letter that I should answer, he asked about photographs, spiritual photographs. Prabhupāda: My photograph? Devotee: Yes, he said something about photographs, that the devotees had photographs of him and he didn't want them to have them if you didn't want them to. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not harmful. (break*-end) *Room Conversation with Gaurachand GosväméAt the Rädhä*-Dämodara Temple(Mostly Bengali)--March 11, 1972, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Where is Kṣīrodakaśāyī? So that... You want to go immediately? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Quarter to eleven I give the time to start from here to reach... Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Twenty past... Devotee: Ten fifteen. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Quarter past ten. Prabhupāda: So you want the check immediately? Kṣīrodakaśāyī: We have to buy the stamp, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, the check will not buy stamp; you have to take money. Kṣīrodakaśāyī: Yes, I will give the check to the man and then he will give me cash to..., before we go to Mathurā. (Prabhupāda converses in Bengali with guests) [break] (in car, horn honking:) Devotee: Actually he planned them very nicely. Śyāmasundara: Is he willing to give us the rooms? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: Oh, Prabhupāda. Śyāmasundara: We should take them, I think. Devotee: I don't (indistinct). Yamunā: We must take them, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: To ride on a car in Vṛndāvana. (chuckles) [break] (inside a building:) Price is fixed up at five thousand, then it comes to... Indian man: Minimum is five hundred rupees. Prabhupāda: Why five hundred? Sixty... *Indian man: Sixty*-five rupees per thousand for the stamp duty, then court fees, and then other (indistinct) solicitor charges or the (indistinct) charges. So the last time... [break] Prabhupāda: Yes. So... Indian man: Would you like to see the draft, Prabhupāda, first? Prabhupāda: Hm? Indian man: If you like it, then I can send that draft? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... I want... Indian man: You want to see the draft first? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is little to be changed, then... Indian man: But that is a rough draft I read last night. Guru dāsa: But we should include that section that says that the front part cannot be used for any commercial... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guru dāsa: That should be included. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is (indistinct) [break] Thousand rupees? Indian man: No, eight hundred. Put it eight hundred. Prabhupāda: Write eight hundred and sign, I will sign. [break] Indian man (2): A place for you, for a park, nice place for the ashram, on the parikrama path. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): Away from the town hustle and bustle and... Prabhupāda: What is their demand? Indian man (2): Which one? I showed him... I showed two places. Which one? Guru dāsa: The very large one right next to the road. The road curves like this. It is still part of that property. *Prabhupāda: You have not given that? Then change little. Not change*-we have got addition that that portion cannot be used... Indian man: Yes, I do the draft work before I put it (indistinct). Śyāmasundara: The name of that place was Parasurama. Indian man (2): Parasurama? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Indian man (2): I don't remember now, I made the inquiries just then and I have forgotten. And I told Suba(?) dāsa Bābājī the exact amount that they wanted and so on. I think it was... I don't quite remember, it was sixty thousand or what. For the smaller one it was perhaps forty thousand. Guru dāsa: And the bigger one was sixty thousand. Indian man (2): Bigger one was perhaps sixty thousand. I don't quite remember now. We didn't talk with the owner, you see, but the people residing there, they gave an idea. We didn't proceed further because Suba(?) dāsa Bābājī said unless Prabhupāda approves it, he would not seek further. So hopefully that price that they demand, they will come to talk and we talk with the owners themselves. Guru dāsa: Yes, but they're eager to sell that property, the owners? Where are the owners? Do you know? Indian man (2): None of the owners are here, but I'm told one Mr. Lodiya(?)... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Vṛndāvana*-dhāma. Indian man (2): Situated (indistinct). (laughs) There is something going on always, you know. (laughs) Just now there is a controversy going on. One Kṛṣṇa Caitanya dāsa Bābā has published a book, have you read that? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is from Rādhā*-kuṇḍa? Indian man (2): No, Prabhupāda, (indistinct). He has brought out a book which is (indistinct). Prabhupāda: What is that? *Indian man (2): He says that this Pañca*-tattva principle, we should recognize that this we have borrowed from Buddhism. And there is no mention of Pañca-tattva before Caitanya-caritāmṛta. *Prabhupāda: That means he defies Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. *Indian man (2): He defies Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, he defies Caitanya-caritāmṛta like anything, right and left, right and left. Prabhupāda: He is a demon. Indian man (2): Huh? Prabhupāda: Then he is a demon. *Indian man (2): But, you see, the trouble is he is well read, and he has tried to make a very good unchallengeable sort of a case, and I tell you that nobody from Vṛndāvana has yet been able to come out with a cogent reply. We have yet to find out an answer to two important question that he has raised: one, as to whether this principle of Pañca*-tattva has been mentioned anywhere in the works of the Gosvāmīs prior to Caitanya-caritāmṛta; and two, this (indistinct), whether this has also been mentioned anywhere before. Both these he says have been borrowed by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī. They have been introduced under the influence of Buddhism, prevalent so much. Prabhupāda: How he gives quotation from Buddhism? Indian man (2): No, he... Prabhupāda: But he says from Buddhism. Indian man (2): He draws comparisons. He traces the historical background, and then the conditions prevalent..., conditions prevalent particularly in Orissa at that time Vyāsarūpa(?) Gosvāmī lived. *Prabhupāda: One thing is that he says that it is from Buddhism. So where is the authoritative statement in the Buddhism about Pañca*-tattva? That he has not mentioned. Indian man (2): No. He has said in Buddhism you have the principle of pañca-śaktis. Prabhupāda: Śakti and tattva is not the same thing. Indian man (2): Well, yes. Prabhupāda: Śakti is part of tattva. *Indian man (2): But these Pañca*-tattvas... Prabhupāda: Śakti also can be taken as tattva. *Indian man (2): As tattva, yes. And these tattvas, Pañca*-tattvas, have been described as śaktis. These Pañca-tattvas also have been described as śakti. Prabhupāda: But Caitanya Mahaprabhu as śaktimān, and others... Indian man (2): As śakti. Prabhupāda: Not all śakti; *two Pañca*-tattva. Īśāvatāra, tat-prakāśa(?) avatāra, they are not śakti. They are all the śaktimān. Indian man (2): Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: And only śakti*-tattva, Gadādhara and Śrīvāsa. And other three, they are śaktimān-tattva. *Indian man (2): They are śaktimān*-tattva. *Prabhupāda: Pañca*-tattvātmakaṁ kṛṣṇaṁ bhakta... *Indian man (2): That śloka is from Svarūpa Dāmodara, his kavaca, which he says nobody has ever seen. So it was very safe for Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja to quote the authority of this kavaca because it is nonexistent. And that is his only authority for the Pañca*-tattva principle. A mention has also been made of this in Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā, but he says that is not an authoritative work, that that doesn't really... Prabhupāda: That means whatever he says, that is authority. Indian man (2): No, but you see, he argues it out. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): He argues it out. Prabhupāda: Argue, that's all right. But this... Indian man (2): The trend is that, whatever he says. *Prabhupāda: Gaura*-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā all the ācāryas have accepted. *Indian man (2): But there is a trend now not to accept it. You see, Rādhā*-Govindanātha does not accept it. Rādhā-Govindanātha in his big work, he has..., he has not... *Prabhupāda: This Rādhā*-Govindanātha, there was some protest against him. He has not accepted Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana also as authority. Indian man (2): He has not accepted. This point also he has raised, this man. Prabhupāda: So this difference of opinion may be there, but he is also one of the..., what is called? Differentiate? This gentleman who has... Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa Caitanya dāsa. Prabhupāda: So differences are there, there will be always. So how one's opinion should be taken as... Indian man (2): Yes. No, but you see, this kind of writing does create sort of a... It does give rise to... Prabhupāda: So Vṛndāvana is the breeding ground for such things. Indian man (2): No, it's not Vṛndāvana. That man doesn't live here, he lives in Calcutta. The book was brought here. It was sent by him to some people, and one copy was directed to me also. Five copies were sent here, and I have the honor to be the recipient of one of them. (laughs) Prabhupāda: How big it is? Indian man (2): A small thing, small thing, about eighty, ninety pages. So I was just going through it, I have been, and I will call a gentleman at two o'clock today with whom I shall discuss the matter. He belongs to that party. Prabhupāda: Which party? Indian man (2): The author. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): The author, author's party. Prabhupāda: Author's party. They have got a party here? Indian man (2): No party here, but this gentleman has given the foreword. He is the author of Ṭhākura Haridāsa, that big volume. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (2): Rama-(indistinct) dāsa. A foreword in his name has appeared in this book, which he says he never gave. He never gave that foreword, but his name was given. And he has also published this in paper, and the author of that book has not challenged it so far. So his hands seem to be... Prabhupāda: What he is, the author? Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa Caitanya dāsa. Prabhupāda: No, what he is, is he professor or what? Indian man (2): No, he's not a professor. He's just a sadak(?), you see, interested in reading and writing. Guru dāsa: So if he will put the name on any foreword, then he can also create any theory. If that man did not give the foreword and he has put the name, he will create any theory. Indian man (2): Yes, of course, that's what he is up to, that's what he is up to. Guru dāsa: And if someone doubts that, then they're not strong followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Indian man (2): Yes. That is a great thing against him. Guru dāsa: How can you doubt the authority? Indian man (2): I think he has got certain preconceptions in his mind and, you see, he just tries to prove them by collecting all sorts of data that will just fit into his point of view. Prabhupāda: Just like Gandhi wanted to prove nonviolence from *Gītā*. Indian man (2): From *Gītā*. No, not like that. I would say like Brindarkara(?) wanted to prove that the..., that Kṛṣṇa story and Kṛṣṇa religion had been borrowed from West, you see, and they are a copy of Christ religion. Mandakara has done that.(end) *Room Conversation Vaiñëava Calendar Description -*-March 11, 1972, Våndävana Devotee: On the calendar here it has 14th of September Advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, the 13th September, worship of Śrī Vāmanadeva. Fifteenth of September Viśvarūpa festival. Prabhupāda: Yes, 15th September, Viśvarūpa. Devotee: Fourteenth of September, Prabhupāda: No, 15th September. Devotee:Yeah, Visvarupa, but 14th of September advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda. Prabhupāda: No, that should be 13th. Devotee: Thirteenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura 13th, and 14th Ananta Caturdaśī and Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So, this 14th September should be observed fasting, whole day. Devotee: Fourteenth is the advent of or the demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Yes Devotee: The death, I mean the disappearance Prabhupāda: Yes, but not for demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but because that is Ananta Caturdaśī Vrata, the, generally the fasting is observed till evening, up to 5 o'clock. The next day, Viśvarūpa Mahotsava, feasting. Devotee: On the 13th of September, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda's Appearance is there any special observance? *Prabhupāda: No, special observance means to discuss about the life and works of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, thats all. Then 26th September, Ekādaśī. Then 10th October, Vijayā*-daśamī, appearance date of Śrīla Madhvācārya, and the victory day of Lord Rāmacandra. So there is no fasting, but in the evening we should celebrate some feasting and discuss about the life and works of Śrī Madhvācārya as well as Rāmāyaṇa incidents where Rāma and Rāvaṇa fought. Devotee: Thank you Prabhupāda. (end) Room Conversation -- March 12, 1972, Våndävana Prabhupāda: There is a book, perhaps you might have read, Aquarian Gospel. So in that book I have read there is a Greek word, Christo. Christo... Sometimes we don't say Kṛṣṇa, we say Kṛṣṭa. Dr. Kapoor: Kṛṣṭa, yes, in Bengali particularly. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Christo word means "anointed." Kṛṣṇa's face is anointed. And love also. And this Christ title was given to Jesus on account of his love for God. So on the whole, the conclusion is Kṛṣṇa or Christo means "love of Godhead." *Dr. Kapoor: No, Mandakara(?) has tried to argue that the entire Kṛṣṇa religion of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata has been borrowed from the West. Yamunā: How is this possible? Dr. Kapoor: Eh? Yamunā: How does he do that chronologically? How is that possible? It's impossible to do that. Dr. Kapoor: There was some exchange, some people came from Greece here, and just... Guru dāsa: But the Greek civilization was not developed five thousand years ago. Yamunā: It wasn't even developed. Dr. Kapoor: But he doesn't take it so back as five thousand years. Guru dāsa: So anybody can say anything. (guest laughs) Prabhupāda: Our authorities, they accept Mandakara(?) is not as good as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya. We... Nobody can give credit to Mandakara more than these ācāryas or Caitanya. So how his proposition can be accepted? Dr. Kapoor: So he was knighted, you see, by the British government. *Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. (guest laughs) Just like Nehru bribed one Mukerjee, Rādhā*-kuṇḍa Mukerjee, doctor, to write book where he has supported cow slaughter. Dr. Kapoor: He supported. Hmm, hmm. Guru dāsa: If I was the Western government and you handed the most perfect knowledge to me, I would knight you also, in the name of myself. Certainly I would knight you. *Prabhupāda: So Rādhā*-kuṇḍa Mukerjee, he has supported cow slaughter. He was given a post, made a parliament member first of all. So this poor man, five hundred rupees per month, he accepted. Then he induced that "You take more money, write like this." So if you pay money... British government's whole policy was that if the Indians are kept strict Hindus, it is next to impossible to govern them. So therefore they adopted this policy. They changed the whole policy how the Hindu will think everything mentioned in the śāstra is nonsense. They have trained up, and Nehru is the first-class trainee. Everything mentioned in the śāstra, the Arya-samaj, they also wrote Saptartha (indistinct), so many. And Dr. Radhakrishnan also. All the scholars, they would never mention any śāstra more than once within one thousand years. That means... Dr. Kapoor: Otherwise they would not be scholars. Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise they will not be scholars. Guru dāsa: At any rate, where it came from is... Prabhupāda: Because according to Darwin's theory, your forefather was monkey. So their theory is that long before there were monkeys only. How such high philosophical thoughts could come? Dr. Kapoor: It is true that in England there were only monkeys there. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: On this theory, all their philosophy is going on. So if they give credit that Indians were so high scholars and philosophers, then the whole theory is spoiled. Because brain is developing, and the background of brain was monkey. So how such philosophical highly moral scholarly work can be done? And this is going on. If Bhāgavata is accepted as we accept that five thousand years ago it was written, then their whole civilization becomes topsy*-turvy. Dr. Kapoor: About the Bhāgavata also he says that there is the mention of Buddha in Bhāgavata and many descendants of Buddha who lived... *Prabhupāda: The Buddhists, they don't accept that verse. Kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati, buddho nāmnāñjana*-sutaḥ. They do not accept. About Buddha, in Hindu literature, Vedic literature, there is mention, bhaviśyati, feature(?). That is insult to them. Therefore, they do not accept this verse. Neither we say Buddha is incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra. They do not accept this. They think it is insult. Dr. Kapoor: Insulting them. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Hindu gods... But in one Buddha temple, I have seen in Penang, there is Viṣṇu*-mūrti. Yes, four hundred years old. That is a Buddhist temple. Guru dāsa: Dr. Chandra has found many. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru dāsa: Dr. Chandra has found many Viṣṇu*-mūrtis in Buddhist temples. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: Especially in Malaysia. Prabhupāda: Malaysia. Yamunā: Especially in Malaysia, so many. Prabhupāda: Malaysia, I speak of Malaysia, Penang is in Malaysia. Dr. Chandra (indistinct). Guru dāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So they worship Viṣṇu. And Buddha...Buddha*-dharma is an offshoot of the Vedic religion. That is the proof, they worship Viṣṇu. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā. Guru dāsa: But to this man, he says that's the proof that Vaiṣṇava is an offshoot of Buddhism, that Viṣṇu is in the Buddhist temple. He can say that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: This Caitanya who has written this book can say that since Viṣṇu is in the Buddhist temple that this proves that Viṣṇu is an offshoot of Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Yes, he can say like that. But the offshoot he cannot say. Viṣṇu is long, long ago mentioned, Buddha is later. Buddha can be from Viṣṇu, but Viṣṇu cannot be from Buddha. *Guru dāsa: So how do they speak of that chronologically? They don't accept that Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam as five thousand years old? Dr. Kapoor: No. [break] This bundle... Śyāmasundara: No, those are documents. Dr. Kapoor: Documents? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, photocopies. Dr. Kapoor: You promised to give me a photo of Prabhupāda. Guru dāsa: I'll give you one. *Prabhupāda: If you have got any colored photo, you can give him. So we have now increased eighty*-seven. *Śyāmasundara: More, ninety*-two. *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-two? Dr. Kapoor: Ah, you don't know yourself. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually Kapoorji, I do not know how things are going like this. I tell you frankly. I have no credit. But things are going on like this. It is something like*-of course, I am not comparing exactly-just like Kṛṣṇa could not understand about His potency and, therefore He became Rādhārāṇī's feature to understand Himself. So... Of course, I... This is a comparison. Things are taking very wonderfully. Very wonderfully. Just see these boys and girls, how seriously they have taken. Dr. Kapoor: Oh, yes, there is no doubt about their earnestness, and people have...This is just what strikes people. How can these people be so sincere and so earnest? Prabhupāda: So I simply... Dr. Kapoor: They are beating Indians. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: I simply advise them that you regularly chant the sixteen rounds. Not more, you cannot make... You cannot imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura. But there must be one saṅkhyā. Saṅkhyā*-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna. They are observing that and the regulative principles: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. And they are following other instructions, so they are wonderfully. *Dr. Kapoor: You know Dalmiaji's daughter*-in-law, the wife of Viṣṇu Hari Dalmia... Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu Hari went to see me in London, perhaps with his wife. Dr. Kapoor: Accha. She told me, she said the movement is all right but they are so strict, such strict rules and regulations are being imposed upon these people, how long will they be able to follow them? Prabhupāda: That is a surprise. Dr. Kapoor: This is bound to fail, she said. I say it will succeed just because of this. (laughter) The rules and regulations imposed upon them are like strong fences put around them to keep māyā away, you see? Yamunā: They want relgiosity watered down. *Prabhupāda: Actually, because they are following strictly, māyā cannot touch them. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sa siddhim [Bg. 16.23]. Kṛṣṇa says vidhi. Bhakti-vidhi. Must be followed. (aside:) This is cut piece? Cut piece from the book cover? No. It is original photo? Guru dāsa: A copy. Prabhupāda: Copy. *Dr. Kapoor: It is fine. [break] (laughs) But now I changed so there is a Radha*-Kṛṣṇa photo in the background which is cut. Prabhupāda: You can give some of that. It is not very nice. Yamunā: We need the nice ones. Guru dāsa: We don't have any others. Yamunā: We didn't bring so many things with us, but we'll give him very nice. *Prabhupāda: Here Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa photo is cut, it's not good. You have got any in your photo... Śyāmasundara: Not color. Prabhupāda: May not be color. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: Give me afterwards, there is no hurry. And what about those photos you took in town that day? That lady inquires from me every time I go there. Yamunā: Which one? Dr. Kapoor: Mahāprabhu's photo, Maha(indistinct)? Guru dāsa: Kṣīrodakaśāyī has those negatives. Dr. Kapoor: Huh? Guru dāsa: I think Kṣīrodakaśāyī has those negatives. I'll inquire. Kṣīrodakaśāyī? Dr. Kapoor: He has? Guru dāsa: He has those negatives. I'll inquire where they are. Dr. Kapoor: If you give me the negatives, I will get them developed. Devotee: You want to take massage now, Srila Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: So give some prasādam. Dr. Kapoor: You are observing Ekādaśī today? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: Ekādaśī today? Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī? (indistinct) Dr. Kapoor: So you are going for that piece of land, that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: Garden? Prabhupāda: Yes. You like that piece of land? Dr. Kapoor: I like it. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nice. Two sides...three sides road. Dr. Kapoor: Three sides road? Prabhupāda: Yes. Three sides road, and good locality. Dr. Kapoor: This one is all right, of course. This land that you have purchased is very well suited. But that orchard, you see. Prabhupāda: Orchard, yes. That you can inquire. Dr. Kapoor: If you want to expand afterwards... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: ...this piece of land may not be sufficient. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Kapoor: And that may not be available afterwards. So if you can go in for it just now... Prabhupāda: Yes. So what actually he wants? Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) must have told you? Guru dāsa: He mentioned that he thought sixty thousand, but he was not positive. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: He was not sure, but they both said sixty thousand, but they were not sure. Dr. Kapoor: (laughs) Since both of us say sixty thousand, I think you can get in touch. Guru dāsa: But that is very nice plot. And it is about two times as large as Mr. Dalmia's land, and Mr. Dalmia was asking fifty thousand. Dr. Kapoor: No, he has purchased it for fifty thousand. Sixty thousand is his entire cost, including expenses and everything. I asked him, he told me. Sixty thousand. So from that point, that land is cheap. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: You have more extensive buildings on it than Dalmia's. Guru dāsa: What about the adjoining land, it is also available? Dr. Kapoor: Which one? Guru dāsa: There is some adjoining land behind... Dr. Kapoor: Adjoining which... Guru dāsa: That sixty thousand... Prabhupāda: Bon Maharaja bought this land very cheap. Dr. Kapoor: Oh, yes. He got it for nothing. Prabhupāda: Only thirty thousand? Dr. Kapoor: No, even less, I think. About ten thousand. But he... Prabhupāda: He had to spend much money. Dr. Kapoor: He got it... It was requisitioned for the college, you see. It was requisitioned. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana University, Vaiṣṇava (indistinct). It was acquired by the government. Dr. Kapoor: Acquired by the government. That's how he got it cheap. And then he had to go into litigation. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Much litigation, and he was in danger. Dr. Kapoor: He was in danger. Śyāmasundara: Still it's not finished. Prabhupāda: Not yet finished. Dr. Kapoor: Not yet finished? That litigation is still going on? Śyāmasundara: No, I mean the building. Dr. Kapoor: Building huh. The construction is going on? Prabhupāda: Now he is getting money. Dr. Kapoor: Now he is getting money. The institution has been recognized by the government. Prabhupāda: He is not here. I inquired. Dr. Kapoor: Perhaps not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: He's gone to Delhi? Dr. Kapoor: He was trying to force me... Guru dāsa: Bombay, I think. Dr. Kapoor: ...force the professorship of his college upon me. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: When I came here after my retirement... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I know that. [break] If you want, you can come sometime to European countries to our different branches. Dr. Kapoor: Why you make me leave Vṛndāvana now? (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, because you have got some background, so you can have very good chance to speak in big institution. Dr. Kapoor: That's all right. Prabhupāda: And if our movement is supported in that way, that will be nice. *Dr. Kapoor: I was out from Vṛndāvana for about a month*-and-a-half, that I told you. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. That was also painful. Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) hell. Although I was with my children, you see, small kiddies, lovely people, you see. And still, you see, I didn't like to stay with them. Prabhupāda: That I can understand. Dr. Kapoor: I came away. And as I was coming to Vṛndāvana, you see, I think it was by way of punishment, you see, for being..., for remaining outside Vṛndāvana for such a long period that the strange thing happened, you see. And Rādhārāṇī made me undergo a prāyaścitta before I came back. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: A what? Dr. Kapoor: You see, what happened was, it was the... Prabhupāda: Prāyaścitta. Intonation, what do you call? Dr. Kapoor: No. Prabhupāda: Prāyaścitta, what is the exact English? Dr. Kapoor: Penance. Devotee: Atonement. Prabhupāda: Atonement. Dr. Kapoor: Atonement, yes. Prabhupāda: Atonement. Dr. Kapoor: Atonement. So I was made to undergo atonement, you see. (chuckles) I was coming to Mathurā. I had to drop down some (indistinct) at Mathurā, and I had a trunk and bedding with me. [break] (Hindi), a big volume, about one thousand pages, that he had given to me for revision. So that thing was there, there was one... Prabhupāda: Bengali? Dr. Kapoor: Hindi. Prabhupāda: Hindi. Dr. Kapoor: Hindi. One more manuscript. And, of course, there was some jewelry also because my son has been recently married, you see, and there was some jewelry also. That was not so material as this manuscript. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: So I went to the station master, he failed to do anything. Then I ran back to the train. [break] (end) Conversation with Author -- April 1, 1972, Sydney Prabhupāda: And if still people are unhappy with this movement, then what can be done? (pause) Author: So you say that you encourage anybody who disagrees with aspects of your philosophy to argue with you? Prabhupāda: No. We invite everyone, "Please come and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So if one disagrees, why he will come? Author: But don't you suggest that if somebody feels that they can find fault in your philosophy... Prabhupāda: Then let him explain what is that fault. Then we can reply. But without fault, if they make some, what is called? Pradyumna: Complaint? Prabhupāda: Complaints, that is very difficult thing. What is our fault? Please tell me? Author: Then sir, I want to ask you about, well... It seems this book is impracticable without the kind of material I want. Now, I don't want to adopt an uncompromising position at all, but I am convinced that you misunderstand my motivations. I don't know how to persuade you that my motivations are good ones, and so therefore I am in a corner, in a cul de sac. Now, the material that I must have in this book is sufficient to be able to persuade people that they are reading about something which is true. That means, for example, that I... *Prabhupāda: So, that books we have already published. To convince people that this is nice movement, we have got dozens of books, and they are selling nicely. Practically we are standing by the sales of our books and literature. How to convince people that this is a nice movement*-we are ourselves publishing. You cannot publish better book than what we have done. We know the interest. Author: Sir, I am not seeking to persuade people that it is a nice movement. I am seeking to describe it as it is. Prabhupāda: No, no, describe, but you cannot describe better than us. Is it not a fact? Author: Sir, Back to Godhead and the other books are not... Prabhupāda: Because we know our business, therefore we are describing our facts very nicely. You are outsider. Author: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you cannot place our, I mean to say, pros and cons so nicely. Author: Sir, I think we are talking about two different things. I think you... Prabhupāda: You wanted little history of this movement? I have given you. That you can create. Yes. How the movement is going on, you can... But we cannot spoil our time in that way, that I describe the biography of a person. Author: Right. Prabhupāda: In our books there is no biography of anyone. The biography is not that you... We are interested in the philosophy. The philosophy, vijñāna. It is called vijñāna, science. If you want to know what is the science of this movement, we can spare day and night to convince you. But these are superficials. First of all we say that "I am not, we are not this body." So why we shall be interested with the history of this body? Author: Sir, I, with respect, I am now talking about offering some information about the movement, not on the movement's behalf and not for the movement's benefit, but to the general public. Now, among this information, a substantial proportion of this information will be about the movement's philosophy. I shall make an earnest, and I think... Prabhupāda: That is nice. Author: I shall make an earnest and I think intelligent effort to understand and then to communicate the movement's philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Author: But I can assure you that it's also necessary to communicate something of the rather superficial aspects of the movement, which, I think I agree with you, are much less important than the philosophy. But it is also necessary to communicate these. Prabhupāda: Now, our simple philosophy is that we are spirit soul. We are eternal. You are eternal. I am eternal. Everyone is eternal. We are changing our body, transmigrating from one body to another. And that means repetition of birth and death, but we are eternal. Why we are in such botheration of repetition of birth and death? Not only that, sometimes in some species of life, may be very high position, sometimes in low position. Suppose somebody is American, and the next life, if he becomes a tree, if he becomes a dog... He may become a demigod also. There is possibility. Just like in future you may be a... [break] ...understand this movement thoroughly and take it seriously. It is for good welfare, for very good welfare. Now, in Europe, America, here also, so many frustrated young boys, they are coming to be practically of no value to the country. In America I see thousands of hippies, they are doing nothing. So what is the future of the country? If the flowers of the country, young boys, they do not take interest in anything, in administration, in industry, then what is the future? From economic point of view I have studied that America, for want of sufficient workers, they are importing goods from Japan. This is not very good sign. Why such a big country, American country, why they should import? But they are obliged to import. They have no workers. Japan's 75% business is done in America. We are not impractical. Because there are so many workers, but they refuse... In Central Park, it is full of rubbish things always. You go. It is a garbage. Why? There is no worker. And on the other side we see so many young men. They are not working, simply idling time. So they do not tackle the real problem. The future is not very hopeful if things go on like this. So many young boys, they are doing nothing. What is the percentage of hippies now in America? A very good percent. All the school colleges. Here also in the university... Devotee: All the university students. Prabhupāda: They are all hippies. So what do we expect? They are taking education, and then, after taking education, they don't do anything. This is a problem. And so many illicit children, and the government has to supply them food, and the welfare, what is called? That welfare department? Devotee: Social security, welfare. Prabhupāda: Security. No, social welfare, that the girls are getting illicit children and the government has to supply food for them. Nobody is taking care of the girls, of the children. And government has to take. The responsibility is increasing, so many things, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will solve all the questions. It is such a nice movement. It is a boon. So you study from that point of view and prepare your journal. Therefore I am talking so many things. This is good material for your writing, practical. *Author: Sir, when somebody joins your movement, when they first come to see your movement, what presents itself to them*-men with shaven heads and saffron-colored robes who dance in the street and who sing songs, strange songs-these are strange aspects. And in themselves they are not especially significant to an understanding of the philosophy, are they? Prabhupāda: No, this is... This chanting and dancing is for mass of people, but when you want to discuss philosophy, we have got volumes of books. Yes. Both things we have got. We are attracting both the intelligent class of men and the mass of people, even the children. Author: Now, sir, I think you agree that when... If you agree that this is the first thing that people generally see of your movement, then surely, if I am to write a book in which I am to describe the movement, it is necessary for me to describe some of the... Prabhupāda: But if he is actually, anyone wants to see, so he should see our books also, magazines also. Why does he not see? We, our, send our boys in the streets with books. If you are not liking this saffron dress and dancing, why don't you read the books? Author: No. I don't think you take my point. What I am saying is that... Let us imagine that the reader who picks up the book, this book that I am going to write, I hope, is very much like a person who sees the devotees dancing in the street, because he is seeing something for the first time. Now, it's necessary, surely, to describe the external and superficial features. Prabhupāda: It is not superficial. This dancing is spiritual ecstasy. Otherwise it is not a dog's dance. You see? Any gentleman, if I ask you, "Please dance on this footpath," will you agree? It is not that dancing. You don't compare with that dancing. It is not dog's dance. They chant, they feel, they dance. That is another thing. You try to understand it. If they are coming from respectable families... Now, here is a boy. He is a professor. So if I ask him, "Please go and dance on the footpath," will he agree? A professor will agree? But when a professor dances, there is something. You should understand. Author: Sir, I'm not saying that the dancing is meaningless. I was saying that when one sees people dancing, that doesn't mean anything. Prabhupāda: That does not mean to you. Author: That's what I mean. Prabhupāda: But it means to them. Author: Yes. No. I'm not saying that it's meaningless. I'm saying that it appears to be meaningless in the same way that one should wonder why he has his head shaven and why he wears those clothes. If one doesn't understand, these things are... Prabhupāda: At least, they can take by shaving head means it cleans, cleanses. The head is not overburdened with unnecessary... (laughter) We want clear brain, and that is the system, Vedic system. All learned scholars, they cleanse head. Cleanse head. Yes. And at least we get relief. A little hair growing is also burdensome. We cleanse. So it is personal convenience. So that is not the point of preaching. Author: No. But, sir, I see... I don't... I think it would be very difficult to explain the meaning of having a bald head, and by saying somebody's got a bald head, the reason for this is, there seems to be some cleanliness and so on, and to explain why people wear clothes like this. It's impossible surely to explain the reasons for these things without describing them in the first place. Prabhupāda: Explain... Any group of men, they have got a particular type of dress, the military dress, the police dress. So people can understand that "Here is a police." Similarly, by this dress they will chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" immediately. That is our experience. As soon as they will see these people, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and if they will criticize our, anything, we want that people see us and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That we want. Simply by seeing us they will remember Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is great advancement. Indirectly that is our propaganda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (aside) Your business is finished at sundown. Devotee: Not too much yet but... Prabhupāda: When it will finish? Devotee: Tonight it will be finished. Author: I must start off from the beginning for the person who reads the book, and the beginning for the person who reads the book is: here are these people wearing these strange clothes and doing these strange things. Now, why? Now, that's what I've got to do in the book. And in order to do this it's necessary to describe some of these physical characteristics. And my reason for doing this is, in order to define what is relevant, it's necessary also to define what is irrelevant. That's pure logic. Devotee: But Prabhupāda wants that you should have the highest understanding, not just looking at it from their point of view, but if you present it from our point of view, then it can gain the realest, greatest understanding. Author: Well, with respect, I think that can only, we can only consider that question in practice. When I actually write the material, you'll have to... Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say, why there is objection if they are dressed in a particular way? Author: Oh, I'm not objecting to it at all. In fact, it's one of the most reasons why I'm most strongly in favor of the Hare Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: So they are Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they dress in a particular way. That is the answer. That's all. Author: I don't mind. Sir, I don't mind how they dress. I don't mind how anybody dresses. I don't mind at all. I happen to dress conservatively, other people dress less conservatively, and you people dress in saffron robes. It's not an... Prabhupāda: Then what is your real question about the dress and shaven head. Author: For most people... *Devotee: One thing I think I understand is that he is saying that many people come and become interested in our movement by seeing us. Or by*-not understanding anything of what we are doing-but by visual, by the mundane, seemingly, aspects. And in his book, I think what he is saying is he wants to present it in a way that will attract that sort of person, whereas most people will not pick up the book and read it because it's a book on Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy, but because they are interested in the outward aspect of things, if it contains that to some degree, then they will pick it up and then he can present both and give them some knowledge also of what we are doing in our philosophy. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Upendra: By putting a label, poison, a label, nectar on a bottle of poison. (laughter) They will take. They will think he is giving them what they are interested in, even though it may be superficial. But once there, then he can present the philosophy as well. I think that's what he's saying. Author: Yes, well, I'm not trying to... Because I am not an adherent of... I'm not a Hare Kṛṣṇa movement member. That is obvious. And because I am not a member of the movement, I am therefore not trying to do precisely what you gentlemen are saying, but I'll not try to package an unwholesome product like poison...(laughter) Yes, I appreciate that. But what I am trying to do is to describe what is. Now this requires an exercise of the imagination. If you imagine somebody who is outside, as each of you people were at one stage, you came to understand what this movement was by a gradual process. Now I, in a book of about a hundred pages, am going to trace that process, not in the way you did it, but in a slightly different way. But the things that strikes one immediately are these external, superficial characteristics. And then one he comes to appreciate rather more important things. And it's just a question of stating these in that way. Now in order to understand the highest possible things, it surely is necessary to state the superficial things as well, the less important things. It seems to me to be clearly... Upendra: What Prabhupāda is speaking tonight is very important and it might appear that he is not understanding you but he is actually speaking to you, like you said, necessary (indistinct) so that if you can assimilate everything Prabhupāda is saying tonight, you'll be able to write the book much more clearly. You might think that he is not understanding you, but he is speaking the most important part. Author: I am not (indistinct) his understanding. I think he is worried about my understanding, which is why he is... Right. Well, I appreciate this, but I am trying to convince him that I am going to try to say accurately what your philosophy is. And in this I'll have to rely on your help, because I can't do it otherwise. Prabhupāda: I have already explained our philosophy. Author: I'm sorry, not explain. Describe, I think, is a rather better word. *Prabhupāda: That philosophy, if you want to know more, then we can speak more. But that is the outlines of the philosophy, that people, without knowledge of his identification, they are misled, being misled. And that is very risky. Risky means that you have got this opportunity of understanding your position and get out of the difficulties of birth, death, old age, and disease. If you do not properly use this opportunity and again you become cats and dogs, then are you not misled? So present civilization is misleading. They are concerned with a few years enjoyment, so*-called enjoyment. Suppose you are Australian or American. You have got very nice status in your country, good house, good facility, good money, and that's all right. But after your death, when you have to quit this subtle atmosphere, then after your death what is happening to you, you are not concerned to know? If you are eternal, if you are eternal, then suppose you have got this shirt and coat. When it is torn down, when it is old enough, you have to give it up. Then you have to purchase another shirt and coat. So are you not prepared for that, "What kind of shirt and coat I shall have?" Author: No, I'm not. Prabhupāda: You are not? That is a very good intelligence? You go naked? Author: No. It's not very wise, provided one assumes that one is going to have another. Prabhupāda: No. Everyone thinks like that. Suppose I have to purchase one coat. I consult my pocket, "What kind of shirt I shall purchase?" Everyone knows. But if you say you are not interested, that is different thing. But any man who is going to purchase a new shirt and coat, he considers before going to the tailor's house, what kind of shirt he will have, what kind of coat. Everyone thinks. That is natural. You cannot deny it. Whether it will be suitable, whether it will be comfortable. So many things, everyone considers. And then he goes to a storehouse and orders, "Give me this kind of coat, this kind of shirt." Why you can say that nobody is interested in that? Everyone is interested. Author: No, I didn't say nobody was. I didn't say that nobody was. *Prabhupāda: That is the natural inclination. So if you are eternal, if your life is not for these ten, twenty, or hundred years-you are going to have another span of life*-are you not interested to know what kind of life you are going to get? Author: Well, I don't believe that I shall. But then I don't think that... Prabhupāda: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. You have to accept another body after this body, just like you have already accepted. Your childhood body was there, and that is gone. You accepted another body. Similarly, now you have got another body. A few years after, you will get another body. So you are accepting bodies one after another. That is a fact. So you have to accept another body after this. So what kind of body I am going to get? Is this not the point of consideration? But there is no education on this point. But that's a fact. We have accepted already so many bodies. And natural conclusion is that I must accept another body. But what kind of body. Now you can select. There are 8,400,000 forms of body. So these questions are not discussed at all, but they are very important factors. That is philosophy. But modern civilization they neglect: "I don't mind what kind of body I shall get next life." So those who are intelligent, if they think that "Why shall I neglect this fact? I am not going to accept a body like a tree or a dog. If I accept a body, I must have a body very nice." One may not (be) interested in this fact, but others may be interested. So if others are interested, why this chance should be denied? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The temple is calling on the phone. They want to know if you are coming to that... *Prabhupāda: No. No. It is too late. Just like there is higher studies in science, in so many departments of knowledge. It is not that mass of people is interested in Ph.D. degree. But if one is interested in Ph.D. degree, therefore government provides him: "Yes, in university, you come." That is the real facility. So if anyone is interested to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why it should be denied? Why this should be obstructed because I do not like it? In big, big universities, maybe in higher studies, there may be one student, and for that one student they are maintaining four professors. Each professor is paid two thousand dollars. Is it not a fact? What do you think, you professor. Is it not a fact? Some department of knowledge is maintained, even it is not paying. Is it not? There are so many departments simply for research work because the government knows it is important thing. It may not be for the mass of people, but at least one, two intelligent class of men, he pays, qualified: "Let them have this opportunity." So this is like that. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not for ordinary man, but it is very important movement. Those who are interested, why they should be denied? It should be maintained. We cannot expect everyone can give up all these bad habits, illicit sex, illicit meat*-eating, or drink, or intoxication, gambling. That is not expected. But if one wants to be for higher status of life, why he should be denied? This is not a bad thing. Why the city fathers are thinking that this should be stopped? All right, let us now... So my appeal to you, that you are journalist; you at least study this, our movement, and present very nicely. That is my request. Author: Well, thank you very much for... Prabhupāda: Yes, thank you. Stop that. (end) Room Conversation -- April 1, 1972, Sydney Pradyumna: "Chance." It's a noun and adjective. "1. The way things fall out. Fortune, undesigned occurrence, opportunity, possibility, probability. Especially in plural, as 'the chances are against him.' Absence of design or discoverable cause. Course of events regarded as a power, fate. 'By chance': as it falls or fell out; without design. 'On the chance': in view of the possibility. 'Take one's chance': let things go as they may. Consent to take what comes." Prabhupāda: So it can be adjusted with the meanings of chance and necessity. I want something; that is my necessity. And it will come by chance? Or I have to endeavor for it, and then I get it? Shall I depend on chance? I have a necessity for something. So should I wait for the chance? Śyāmasundara: We've always been taught, "No. You must work very hard toward..." Prabhupāda: So where is the waiting for chance? There is plan. If I have to work, to get the thing, then it is plan. Pradyumna: If they follow their philosophy to the conclusion, they would have to be completely dependent, if they followed the philosophy to the conclusion. Prabhupāda: If the chance comes as soon as the necessity is there, then we have to admit immediately God. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Oh. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā we hear, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam that God is in everyone's heart as Supersoul. Now, I am thinking of getting something. So God knows immediately that "He wants to have this," so He gives me the necessary thing which appears to me as chance, without knowing God. The things are supplied by God because He is giving me all facilities to enjoy this material world to my heart's content by supplying all the ingredients. That is the material condition. So these foolish persons are taking as chance, but it is not chance. God is omnipotent. As soon as He understands that I want this, He gives me some facility so that I get it. So it is not chance. It is by arrangement of superior authority. But because they are atheists, they have no sense of God consciousness, they are taking as chance, that necessity creates that chance; automatically it is coming. Not automatically. Chance does not mean automatically. I cannot see something, but all of a sudden falls... Just like I am hungry, I want some food. So Kṛṣṇa knows it that you want some... Some way or other, the food comes to me. So it is the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa, but I see it is chance: "I was hungry and by chance the food has come." That is my less intelligence. It is not chance; it is plain. Otherwise you cannot adjust the meaning of chance in that way, that as soon as there is necessity, immediately the opportune chance comes before us. Śyāmasundara: They say, "Well, it's my luck," or "My bad luck." Prabhupāda: Yes. They say. So this "luck," as soon as you say, "luck" there must be somebody who is giving you the luck, good luck or bad luck. Śyāmasundara: One man may desire something very badly, and his whole life long he will not get it. He will always say, "I am so unlucky." Prabhupāda: Because he is not fit to get it, so God does not supply it. So we do not take anything as chance. We take everything as plan. But because God's omnipotency is so subtle, we cannot see how things happen. Therefore we say "It is a chance, chance of physical arrangement." Just like in the airport, as soon as I step on the door it becomes opened. It is not chance. A child will see it is a chance: "Oh, how it is? I wanted to go and the door is already open." He takes it a chance. That is poor fund of knowledge. There is arrangement, nice arrangement, electrical arrangement. So to a poor fund of knowledge it becomes a chance, and to the sober mind it is not chance; *it is arranged by higher authority. Another opposite point is nobody wants to die. Why the chance of death comes? Nobody wants to die. If that argument is taken, necessity*-I want to die, and the death comes-then it is applicable. But I do not want to die. Why death comes? There is no necessity of my death, but why the death comes? Then where this argument will be? Śyāmasundara: Oh, there's no necessity. There's no necessity for death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die. So why death comes? Śyāmasundara: But they will say that because it is physically worn out, finished, material is finished, then it will die. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is a question of chance and necessity. Nobody feels the necessity of death. Why death comes unless it is planned? Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Their argument is that physical necessity creates a chance, and we take advantage of the chance. But here there is no necessity. Nobody wants to die, nobody wants disease. Why these chances are coming to us without any necessity? Śyāmasundara: If, for instance, in nature they saw a tree growing, they would say that by necessity this tree must die in order to replenish the soil so more trees can grow. Prabhupāda: Then there is plan. As soon as you say that more trees can grow, that means there is plan. You cannot say chance. Śyāmasundara: Nature can't be chance. If so many plants... *Prabhupāda: That plan is Kṛṣṇa's. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My plan, under My superintendence, the nature is working. The changes of the world is going on for that reason." Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate: "All these changes are taking place on account of My supervision." So there is no question of chance. It is all planned, planned by the Supreme, daiva netreṇa, by superior arrangement. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't necessity mean plan? Prabhupāda: Necessity means for a foolish person like me, I want something. That is my necessity and God supplies me. "Man proposes, God disposes." And that reception, or that, my achievement, being without explained by me, I take it as a chance. Because I cannot explain it, therefore I take... Just like the same example: the flower is fructifying. We are saying because we do not see how the working is going on. Śyāmasundara: Like you defined miracle like that before once. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nothing like miracle. Everything is done. But it is done so subtle way that we cannot understand. We take it chance. The same example: just like a child steps before the door; it opens. He thinks, "Oh, by chance the door is opened." But it is not by chance. It is a plan. Śyāmasundara: By necessity. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Necessity you have to go and it is already done. And as soon as you step on the floor, the door opens. So those who are less intelligent, they are taking it as chance that "I came here. I wanted to go out. The door is by chance open." That is less intelligence. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So before the necessity there is a plan. Previous to the necessity there is a plan. I see. Prabhupāda: No, before the necessity, whoever we feel necessity, the chance is there. The arrangement is there. He knows that... Just like there may be hundreds and thousands of necessities, and for each necessity there is a planned performance. Śyāmasundara: There is that saying, "Where there is a will there is a way." Prabhupāda: But we... You can think of this willingness in different hundred and thousands of ways. That is known to God, and there is already plan. If somebody wills like that, the chance is given. This is plan. Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's right. Prabhupāda: Because God knows beyond this willing orbit, nobody can think of. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He thought that "I can save myself by this way. I shall not die night, in daytime, or I shall not die in the sky. I shall not die in the water. I shall not die on land. No man can kill me. No animal can kill me. No demigod can kill me." In this way he thought, "Oh." But still, keeping all the promises, he was made to die. So there is no such thing as chance without plan. Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of necessity. It says that it is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action. Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be... God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. [break] The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities. Bhūrijana: The difference is that the human living entities have higher intelligence because of their body. Prabhupāda: That is the question, that "Who has given you high intelligence and not to the rats and cats?" Pradyumna: You said in one place, "Man is the architect of his own happiness and distress." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is an axiomatic truth even by the modern man. Yes, that "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So as soon as there is work to make your fortune, then there must be a person to decide to give you a fortunate position. Just like in an establishment, so many men are working, but there is a president. He is considering the work file, "How this man has worked?" And he is being promoted, his salary is being increased, and somebody is degraded, no promotion, rather, transferred in some other place. So natural conclusion is when there are so many varieties of life in our presence and they are, although in the same place, they haven't got the same facility, so there must be somebody who decides on this point. So how you can deny God? Our point is the Supreme Person, the president, who decides on this fact, He is God. What is the opposite answer? Pradyumna: They would say that you are in your position and they are in their position just by chance, just like... Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. This is sheer nonsense. There is nothing by chance. What is that chance? By chance one is becoming millionaire, and a chance, one is becoming cockroaches. What is that chance? Explain that chance. It is evasive. It is most foolish reply, "Chance." We have got this nice apartment. Is it by chance? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Bhūrijana: There's never an example of chance. Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. People are befooled by all this philosophy. Bhūrijana: Albert Einstein, he said that "I cannot believe that the highest material principle is chance." He's a material scientist. He said, "I cannot believe..." Pradyumna: No. Śyāmasundara: Well, necessity... Prabhupāda: Necessity means I arrange. There was a necessity to come to this city, so he arranged. So how it is chance? Śyāmasundara: Their answer is that there was a necessity to go to the city, so we would have tried hundreds of different ways to come here, and by chance, eventually we would have found... Prabhupāda: No. We have not tried hundreds of others. There was a plan. Sudāmā: But even where does... In my mind, if I hear the word chance, where does chance, how does chance come about, if there is such a thing? Prabhupāda: No. The rascal says that I am trying in so many ways; one of them by chance becomes... But I am not working in so many ways. We had a plan, to come here, to preach. So according to that plan, we arranged with this man, and it is not chance. It is all prearranged. Where is that I am trying this way or that way? We are going to preach. There is a plan. So our men go before my reaching there and they make nice arrangement, nice apartment. Then they receive me. These are not chances. This is all prearranged plan. Bhūrijana: They say that... But they don't acknowledge the plan. Prabhupāda: Why they don't acknowledge? Everything is being done by plan. The rascal who is speaking like that, he is educated by a plan, by his parents. And therefore he is able now to talk nonsense and get the Nobel Prize, for talking all these rascals. His education was planned. Sudāmā: Just like his book was planned, so now he is given the Nobel Prize. He won't say, "By chance I won." Prabhupāda: Yes. His plan to misguide the people, that is a plan. Bhūrijana: They say that change is the principle. They say that change is the highest principle and out of so many different changes... Prabhupāda: No. How the change takes place? *Bhūrijana: Change. Change. C*-h-a-n-g-e. Śyāmasundara: Cheaply and at once? *Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that "Mr. such and such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten cent worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān: [Bg. 9.25] "One who can... One can go to the demigods planets by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān, as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me." Mad yājino 'pi yānti mām. So they never worshiped Chandra, and how they can go to the Chandra planet, or moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect. They become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest. Sudāmā: They have not gone. Prabhupāda: They have not gone. We have got our tests. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see, even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simply planning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shall have defense from there." Simply bluffing, simply bluffing. The Americans will go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsense proposals. What defense they will do from there? Is it not the proposal? Yes. Śyāmasundara: This morning you were saying that civilization means peace. So this is not civilization. Prabhupāda: This is no civilization. Bhūrijana: We must become convinced. [break] *Pradyumna: Mandara*-kuṇḍa. Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo Kobe, in Japan there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working and they are living in this nice building. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not? Bhānu: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then where is your advancement? You supply everyone palatial building like this. Why they are living in the matchboxes? Why they are eating cats and dogs? One thing, if you don't believe in God, then you give them. But you cannot give. Then who has given them? Nobody wants to live in the matchbox. Why he is living in the matchbox and you are living in a nice house? Is it all a chance? He is not struggling? He is not making his plan that "I shall also live." Just like the Communists. But he could not. We went to Moscow. They have no nice building made by the Communist people. All big, big, old buildings that is made, constructed by Czar. Not a single building I saw which was constructed by the Communist government. Śyāmasundara: They all live in matchboxes too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: In Russia? Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you... Even if you are able to give everyone nice buildings and nice motor car... Already a few motor cars you have got, there is scarcity of space. From practical point of view. 99% of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motor cars, it has created problem. Where to park the motor car? How to supply petrol. Śyāmasundara: In America now practically everyone has a house and a car. But now the problem is no one wants to work. Prabhupāda: That's it. (laughs) Just see. And he is satisfied to remain as urchin, the hippies. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: They feel pleasure to remain as an urchin. Sudāmā: As their father supplies them with money and motor car. Pradyumna: He built this house, and this house had a very nice view over the whole place. But another man built another building here. And now the view is... Right next to, he built this building. That's why this apartment is vacant. Śyāmasundara: No one will live here. The apartments are vacant. Sudāmā: He's losing money. Śyāmasundara: Someone has built in front of him. Pradyumna: He had view over whole city. This was the biggest building, I think, and he said he had view everywhere. Now someone built one right up, right next to him. Bhūrijana: In the United States, the most amazing thing is that everyone is envious. The general population is envious of the hippies because they all want to do that. The ones who are working so hard, they want to be the ones who are just getting fed and do nothing and enjoy sex. But then when the hippies have it, they say bad things about them. Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not... Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all. Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising. Prabhupāda: We say in our śāstras that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs, better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification. Sudāmā: So better to become and hog and dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hog... The hog has no restriction, mother, sister or anyone. You have seen? The child hog is raising on the body of the mother, although a child. They are so sexually inclined. Sometimes they are having sexual intercourse with the mother. So you take this facility. If you want better facility for sex life, just become hog. So nature is giving the facility. "All right, come on. You eat anything without discrimination. Here is stool. And you can have sex life without any discrimination, your mother or sister. Come on." Śyāmasundara: So the hippies have adopted that philosophy, hog philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They have sex life anywhere, anytime, anyone. Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many books. They are advocating that "You can have sex life. It doesn't matter whether it is mother or sister or daughter. Why should be restriction there? It is bodily necessity. That's all." They are advocating. There are so many books. You do not know? Huh? Sudāmā: Yes, there are. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are books. In India, what to speak of other, in India some European or American book was written on the theme that a man fell in love with his daughter. And that book is the greatest, highest selling book. What is that book? You know? Śyāmasundara: Lolita? There was one, Lolita it was called, about... Sudāmā: The same theme. Śyāmasundara: The same theme. Sudāmā: It was also very popular in America. Śyāmasundara: One of the most popular books of all. Some man and a twelve year old niece, nephew, daughter? *Pradyumna: Adopted daughter. Step*-daughter. Prabhupāda: Adopted daughter, niece, we have practically seen. I knew one man, Gupta. Guru dāsa met him in Delhi. So he was old man, about four years younger than me, very rich man. So I used to visit sometimes his house. He was friendly. So one day I saw one young girl. So I enquired, "Who is this young girl?" "No, she is my adopted daughter. I have no..." He had no daughters, all sons, grown up. "So I have no daughter, so I have adopted her as my daughter." I thought, "That's all right." Some day after, one day I went there. I saw that his wife was not there. So his wife has left home on some complaint. And then I understood that that man was implicated with that daughter. So the wife, under protest, has left. There are many rascals who open girls' schools with the contract with the head mistress that she will supply young girls. Convent school. This is going on. So all these greatness are terminating in sex life and they are making arrangement, plan, and he says there is no plan. Even for his ordinary living he is making plan, and he says there is no plan. Śyāmasundara: So because they want better and better sex life, they have to compete and get better and better apartments. Because the nice girls will not go to the shabby apartments. They will only go to a nice apartments. Prabhupāda: Oh. Night girls. Śyāmasundara: Nice girls, nicer, more beautiful girls will only go to the most beautiful apartment. So there is competition. Sudāmā: Everyone is competing. Now the girls, they want handsome man, so man is trying to get his face fixed and buy new clothes. Prabhupāda: Trying to keep himself young. Sudāmā: Trying to keep himself young, yes. Bhūrijana: So we must propagate your message very loud. Very loud. We must sing Hare Kṛṣṇa very loud so everyone can hear. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne *Prabhupāda: You are all individuals. Every one of us is individual. So how you conceive of merging? Suppose, just like we are here*-one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. How we can merge? You just study philosophy. We are here, eight persons. How we can merge into one? Have you got any idea how we can merge? These eight persons, how we can merge into one? Impersonalist: To realize our selves. Prabhupāda: Well, if suppose you have realized, now, how to merge? Impersonalist: In realization there is that. In realization there is merging. *Prabhupāda: This realization... Now, there are five fingers*-one, two, three, four, five. How they can merge into one? Impersonalist: By realizing this. Prabhupāda: Huh? Impersonalist: By realizing this. *Prabhupāda: No. These are five fingers*-one, two, three, four, five. So these... There are different, five fingers. How they can merge into one? What is the process? Impersonalist: The name of the process. Upendra: The name of the process? Prabhupāda: No, no. Name or not name, how these five fingers can become merged into one? Tell me. Just like here is thing. All the five fingers capture it; *it becomes one. Although they are five-one, two, three, four, five*-they are one. Impersonalist: Becomes one. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If the interest is one*-to capture this-then it is one. That means to... You cannot lose your individuality. But if your interest is one, then you merge into. Do you understand? Just like you are all Australian. Why you are all Australian? Or you are all individual. How you become all Australian, merge into the Australian conception? Because as Australian, you have one interest. So individuality cannot be killed. That is not possible. You are all individual. But when you make your interest one, then you merge into that thing. Each one of us, an individual person... What is your ideal, you all three? You are three persons. What is your philosophy, ideal? Vegetarian? Impersonalist: Meditation and action. Upendra: Meditation and action. Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever you do, you do all together. That is merging. But you are all individual. Your personality is different from his. His personality different from him. He is from you. But because you have got one interest, therefore you one. Just like we. We are so many individuals. But our interest is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are one. Try to understand what is merging into one. You are all individual. Nobody can be... It is not something material. We are all spirit soul, so we are all individual. But if our interest becomes one, then we merge into one. This is oneness. Try to understand this oneness. Oneness does not mean void, no. Oneness means when our interest becomes one; that is oneness. Real oneness means to be interested in Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Other oneness will not stand. Just like you are now in one. As soon as your interest little becomes different, you become separated. So that is... There is quite possibility. Because you are all individual, there is quite possibility of disagreeing with another individual person. There is quite possibility. So oneness does not mean that you lose your individuality. Oneness means you keep your individuality, but you take the same interest. Then it is oneness. It is not possible that you lose your individuality. That is not possible. You are individual eternally. Do you understand this? You have got anything to say about this oneness? Do you differ? Just like the sunlight. The sunlight, physically, they are very small, shining, molecular, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Particles? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Very small, atom-like. They are combined together. It looks that it is one, sunshine. But they are mixture of molecular parts, very small. They are all shining. This is scientific. But it looks one. Even water, that also, small molecular parts. Everything. This matter*-a small molecular atom. So everything is combination of several molecular, atomic parts. That's all. You are also atomic spirit. So all the atomic spirit, when they are together, that is called brahmajyo... (loud noise) This... This cannot be stopped? This nonsense bombing? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is very much disturbing. Impersonalist: Who is Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Now answer who is Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme individual, supreme person. And we all take our individual, our individualities, from Him. Just like the gold ring that you are wearing, perhaps, takes its individual existence from the mine of gold. It's a very small particle of the mine, and you can't say that it is not the same as the mine. It is the same as the mine 'cause it is gold. But it is very tiny, molecular, atomic. Whereas the mine of gold is, for practical purposes, unlimited, and... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Come on. Śyāmasundara: ...the whole. So Kṛṣṇa, He is the source of our individual nature also. We are... We exist as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Because He has personality, we have personality. Just like you have a piece of gold. The ring has a certain color and weight and characteristics of gold, the metal. You find the same qualities in the mine. So we have the same qualities as Kṛṣṇa has because He..., we are parts and parcels of Him. Impersonalist: Then is it necessary to see Kṛṣṇa in the form that is depicted in the pictures, or can one see Kṛṣṇa in other forms? *Śyāmasundara: Yes, one can see Kṛṣṇa on three different levels of realization. The one level is this impersonal brahmajyoti*-merging level. That is called the elementary step, the first step towards God realization. And then the second step is when one realizes that God is isolated or localized within his heart, and this is the stage the great yogis and mystics attain. They are able to control their travel and attain other certain mystic powers. And then the highest step of self-realization is when one realizes God is the supreme person and meets Him face to face and spends his eternal life in the association of God in a personal relationship. There are five different kinds of personal relationships one can have with God: as His friend, as His father or His parent, or as His servant, like that, or as His lover. So if one, if one comes to this stage of realization, that "I am part and parcel of God," that "God is a person; therefore I am a person, and I remain person eternally," then he gets fixed up in his final, original, constitutional position, relationship, and there is no more higher place to go. So... And in this relationship, he understands that "Because God is very great and I am very small, then my position is to serve God." So I engage in a personal serving relationship, with a personal serving mode. In this way I'm always satisfied. I'm always relating with God, in everything I do, serving Him with everything I have. And this is where the spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa because he engages us in serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like there may be some big man and you want to enter into his service and meet this big man, but you have no qualification. But if this big man has a friend who is also your friend, this friend can introduce you and engage you somehow in this big man's service. This is the duty of the spiritual master. He accepts a disciple to make sure and guarantee that that disciple will meet God face to face, if he follows his orders. Prabhupāda: Now answer, question, try to understand. What he has explained, have you understood? Impersonalist: I think so. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is also individual, you are also individual, but He is the head. Just like in our group we are all individual, but I am the head, similarly, there are innumerable individual souls, all over the universe, and the head individual soul is Kṛṣṇa. Impersonalist: Can Kṛṣṇa be called by any other name? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means... Kṛṣṇa's name is given according to His office. Just like a person at home, he is "father," and in the court he is "my lord," the same man. Same man, high*-court judge, his wife is calling him by name, "John." His son is calling the same man, "father." His brother is calling the same man, "brother." And the same man, when he goes to the court, he is called "my lord." So these names are in connection with his service. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So He can have many millions of names. Because He is unlimited, He has got unlimited business also. So He can be called according to that name, according to that business. But this name, Kṛṣṇa, is the best because Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. Impersonalist: Means? *Prabhupāda: All*-attractive. Just like the same man; he is attracting his son; he is attracting his wife; he is attracting his servant; *he is attracting in the court his client. So many ways he is attracting. Therefore somebody is calling him "father," somebody "husband," somebody this, somebody this. So if there is one name, that is Kṛṣṇa, "All*-attractive." He attracts all. This is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. And if God is not all-attractive, then how He can be God? Impersonalist: What is the meaning of Rāma? Prabhupāda: Rāma. Rāma is enjoyer. Ramante yogino 'nante. Yogīs, they want eternal enjoyment. Here in this material world you can enjoy something for some few minutes or few hours, but if you want eternal enjoyment, ramaṇa, then Rāma, that is Rāma. [break] Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. Neither by reading so many books because each book is written in a different way. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you consult philosophers, then everyone will give you a different opinion. Impersonalist: They could be saying the same thing, even though they are saying different things. Prabhupāda: Maybe same thing, but you will be puzzled by the different opinion. Therefore you have to take the path of great personalities. So we are following Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya chanted this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are following, and we are getting result. That's all. We don't manufacture our own way because we are imperfect. We cannot manufacture. That will not be beneficial. Impersonalist: Why is it that this mahāmantra is so attractive to Western countries and not particularly... Prabhupāda: Because it is the thing required. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstra. Because it is recommended that... What is recommended in the śāstra, spoken in the śāstra, that is perfect. There is no mistake. Therefore it is being accepted. Anywhere we are going, beginning from old man to child, everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is recommended. Our intelligence should be applied there, that what is recommended in the Vedas, that is perfect. There are so many instances. Just like cow dung. You know cow dung? Stool of the cow? So according to Vedic principle, if you touch stool of an animal you become impure. Even my stool, I pass in the WC, and immediately I wash and become purified. Oh, this is my stool, personal, and what to speak of other stool? So stool is impure. But the Vedas say that the stool of cow is pure. So if you argue that "Cow is an animal. So animal stool is impure. How the cow stool can become pure?" that is puzzling, but because it is said by the..., ordered by the Vedas, it is fact. You analyze cow stool; *you find all antiseptic matter. So therefore we accept the Vedic injunction as truth. We haven't got to make research. We save time. So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it*-fact. That's all. Śruti. Śruti-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. Pramāṇam means evidence. According to Indian system... There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That's all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the lawbook, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the śāstra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact. In the Bhāgavata it is already stated, lavaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. Keśa means hair. To keep long, long hair will be the practice of people because they will think by keeping long hair they look very beautiful. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Five thousand years this prediction is there: "In this Kali-yuga people will keep long hair, and..., because that will be appreciated, that a man keeping long hair is very beautiful." So that is happening. Just see. Five thousand years ago, that was written, and that is happening. There are so many things. That is called śāstra. It is truth for all the days-past, present, future. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. These things are stated. "Husband and wife will keep together so long their sex power is strong. Otherwise they will divorce." This is written. Svīkāram eva hi udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." According to Vedic system, marriage is a long program. The father of the girl and the boy first of all select. Then their horoscope should be consulted, how they will mix together, and then the family, then personal qualification, so many things... Then dowry... After all this consideration, when everything is satisfactory, then the father and mother of both sides will agree, and they will be married. That is marriage. Now, at the present moment in Kali-yuga, it is said, svīkāram eva hy udvahe. Boys and girls will loiter in the street and two of them, as they agree, "Yes, we will live together." That's all. Bas. This is stated. And that is happening. So this is called śāstra. Five thousand years ago, what was predicted, that is now happening. Therefore we give so much stress on the śāstra that it is perfect. There is no mistake. If you write one book, I write one book, because we are imperfect, it is all imperfect. Impersonalist: What about Buddha? Would you say that he is good? Śyāmasundara: Buddha, Lord Buddha. *Prabhupāda: Yes. About Lord Buddha is also mentioned in the śāstra that Lord Buddha will appear in Gayā Pradesh, in the province of Gayā, and his business will be to cheat the atheists. That is described. Now, how he is cheating? He is the incarnation of God, but he is preaching amongst people who don't believe in God. So he is cheating in this way, that "Yes, there is no God. You hear me." But he is God. The people amongst whom he is preaching, they don't believe in God, but they accept Lord Buddha. But he is God. So by cheating, he is making others to worship God. God is there. But superficially they think, "We don't believe in God. We believe in Lord Buddha." And Lord Buddha is God. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said that his business will be cheat the atheist class of men. Sura*-dviṣām. Sammohita-sura-dviṣām. Sammohita means bewilder. But his philosophy is that to make the people sinless. Ahiṁsā. "Don't kill." That is the greatest sin. So he is propagating that "Let these people be saved from the greatest sinful activities." Lord Buddha appeared... He also appeared in India. Why? He was also Hindu. He was kṣatriya, king. He promulgated this philosophy, ahiṁsā, when there was unnecessary killing of animals. According to Vedas, animal can be killed in sacrifice. That also to give a new life. But people misinterpreted and they began to kill animals like anything with the evidence of..., "In the Vedas animal killing is sanctioned." So Lord Buddha appeared, just being compassionate to the poor animals. Sadaya-hṛdaya-darśita-paśu-ghātam. Sadaya. He became very compassionate, that "All these poor animals are being killed unnecessarily." So he promulgamated a new type of religion-ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. "Don't commit violence. If I pinch your body, you feel pain. You should not pinch others." That is his religion. So, but, he... Because others, they will argue, "Oh, in the Vedas..." As I told you, that Vedas is the evidence, so "Here is... Animal killing is ordered. How you are stopping it?" Therefore he said, "I don't care for your Vedas." And because he did not care for the Vedas, therefore in India, later on, nobody accepted Buddha philosophy. Therefore Buddha philosophy has gone outside India-China, Burma, Japan-because here in India they are very strong in the standing of Vedas. Śaṅkarācārya established that "This Buddha philosophy is non-Vedic. It cannot be accepted." That was Śaṅkarācārya's propaganda. So by the propaganda of Śaṅkarācārya the Buddhism were driven away. There are so many things that one has to study. So Lord Buddha, we accept him as the incarnation of God. And his name is mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. And his business is also mentioned: sammohitaṁ sura-dviṣām. His business is to cheat the atheist class of men. That cheating is not cheating. It is for the good. Just like the father sometimes cheats the small child. You see? So that does not mean father is cheater. "Well, he has got some business to do that. That's all." So when I say Lord Buddha cheated, we don't mean that Lord Buddha was a cheater like ordinary man. No. He had to accept some means to lead them to God worship. He is God. So all the Buddhists... I have seen in Japan. Their temple is as good as Hindu temple. They have got Lord Buddha's statue. They offer lamps, and they sit down. They read Buddha philosophy. It is exactly Hindu temple. Impersonalist: And what is predicted for this age? *Prabhupāda: This side is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra*-not only this side, all over the world. That is prediction of Lord Caitanya: "In every village, every town of the world, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra will be chanted." That is the beginning. Impersonalist: What events are to occur in this age? What events will occur in this age, according to the prediction? Prabhupāda: They are accepting. Wherever we go, they accept. If one is serious about understanding God, they will accept. If he is not serious, superficial, that is different thing. Impersonalist: So this will become the next age. This is to take place in this age or this is the transition between two ages? *Prabhupāda: This is the process. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they will be God*-realized. Just like these boys. Four years ago they did not know what is meant by Kṛṣṇa. So now they are so perfect. Of course, we cannot be perfect anyway, but they are far, far better than any Kṛṣṇa-bhakta in the world. Even Indians, they say, "Oh, they are better than us." And what is the process? Simply they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is practical. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra they are becoming God-realized. Even last night we had meeting with the Christian fathers. They very much appreciated. And in Boston one Christian priest issued literature, that "These boys, they are our boys. They are so mad after God, but we could not do." So this is... Why they have become so? Simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So anyone chants will get this status. This is practical. Not only... In anywhere. We have got many Chinese, many Japanese, Africans, and Canadians and Europeans, and Australia also, we have got many Australian boys. So wherever we are chanting, it is being effective. The real purpose is to realize God. So that is being done. So we have to accept the method recommended for a particular age and time. Then we become successful. [break] ...likes you? Vipada(?). No. Upendra: These two boys, they are coming all the time and chanting, these two boys. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen these boys. You are from China? Malaysian Boy: No, Malaysia. Prabhupāda: Malaysian. Oh. Malaysians, they are originally from China. *Malaysian Boy: Yes. There's one Lalitā*-Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Lalitā*-Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Upendra: He went to Malaysia. He is going to university here, and he went back home, looking all over for the devotees, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, couldn't find them. He was looking all over for them. Then he came back here for study. *Prabhupāda: They do not issue the visa. The difficulty is. What can be done? Now you... Lalitā*-Kṛṣṇa, his name is Lalitā-Kṛṣṇa? He is now initiated. He is pukka devotee. He is chanting, dancing, like anything, in ecstasy. He is a very good boy. Where he is now? Śyāmasundara: Juhu. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Oh, he is very intelligent. So if some of you become devotees, then you can start this movement there in Malaysia. It is a very nice movement. It is the movement for the present day, for human peace and love. So if... Every one of you should study the philosophy, try to understand it and spread it. That is good for you and good for others. (end) Room Conversation -- April 18, 1972, Hong Kong Prabhupāda: ...Bangladesh. That is his vision. Bhūrijana: Bharatratna. The name of the paper is Bharatratna. Prabhupāda: Not the Bharatratna. Another daily paper. Bhūrijana: South China Morning Paper. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So the article is nice. So one thing is that we are simply interested for a temporary object, but we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We do not die. We simply change bodies. Just like these children, they are changing bodies from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to youthhood, the changing bodies. The final change is called death. That means, final change means, giving up this body, we accept again another babyhood body, again begin. This is going on. And this is called māyār bośe, jāccho bhese. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. We are being washed away by the waves of māyā. We are forced to accept a certain type of body, again give it up, again forced to, under 8,400,000 species of life. We do not know, next life what kind of body we are going to get. People should be careful about this. But they are simply interested with this short duration of life, say fifty years or hundred years. But they do not... There is no education, there is no university, that "Everyone is eternal. He should not be engaged only the changing phases of life. One should be interested in the eternal interest of life." This is our mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I'll request you all, ladies and gentlemen present here. Sindhis are generally opulent and religious also, I know. Formerly, when some of our Godbrothers were going to preach in Karachi, they received very well. Now it is Pakistan. Otherwise all Sindhis, they have a special reception for saintly persons. They are religious persons. So you are all here. I think you should open a very nice center for preaching this gospel. And we have no discrimination. We accept anyone because we do not see the outward body. Just a gentleman is not interested with the outward dress, he is interested with the person he talks. Similarly, we are interested to see every person as spirit soul. Paṇḍitaḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Paṇḍita means learned. Sama-darśinaḥ. Bhūrijana: This is it. Prabhupāda: Only one room. Bhūrijana: And this little room in the back. *Prabhupāda: That's very natural. It is costly here. But these children and their parents also very much interested. So I think you should have a nice institution here to train the children in this country. And after their education, they may take to any line of livelihood. That doesn't matter. But the foundation... Just like in our Vedic system, first of all brahmacārī. That brahmacārī system is very nice. Even Kṛṣṇa, God Himself, He has nothing to learn. He is abhijñā. In the Vedas He is described as abhijñā: He knows everything. But just to teach us, He also became a brahmacārī in the Gurukula. Lord Rāmacandra, He also accepted a guru, Vasiṣṭha. So that is our Vedic system. Anybody may be anything, but the process is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to learn the value of life, spiritual value of life, one must go to a guru. Tad vijñānārtham. In order to understand the spiritual value of life one must go to a guru. Gurum evābhigacchet. What is that guru? Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: "He is well learned in Vedic literature," and brahma-niṣṭham, "and firm faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead." These are the two qualifications of guru. He must know all the Vedic conclusions, śrotriyam, not that he has to read, but he must hear from the authoritative sources. Just like Arjuna is hearing from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the most authoritative personality. So similarly, everyone has to hear either from Kṛṣṇa or from His bona fide representative. That is śrotriyam. And the result will be that after becoming student of such bona fide guru, one will be firmly fixed up in God consciousness. That is the result, firmly fixed up. Now, these boys from foreign countries, according to our geographical arrangement, they are foreigners. But we don't see anything foreign. We see every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa and everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So we have no such distinction. But still, from materialistic point of view, these boys and girls, they, three or four years ago they did not know what is this word Kṛṣṇa. But now they are so perfectly devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and nobody can deviate them. If somebody says that "You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and take..." Now here is Śyāmasundara. His father is very, very rich man, young man. He is always canvassing him that-he is only son*-that "You come, do business. You take millions of dollars, whatever you like." He is not going. There are many like that. They cannot give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And you know our Jagatāriṇī, wife of Bhūrijana, she was a theatrical girl and earning millions of dollars, but she has given up everything. You have seen his wife, you all, Bhūrijana's wife? She is a nice girl, educated, qualified. But she is satisfied. I asked her to go and marry Bhūrijana. She never saw her (him). She never saw her (him), what kind of husband she is going to accept. But simply on my word, she came, and she came from Los Angeles to Japan and got married. Similarly I am asking one girl. She is a French girl, Mandākinī. So I am asking her to go to Russia and marry one boy. She has never seen. So they obey in such a way. The Western boys and girls, they want to see and behave before marrying. But they are so obedient that without any consideration... Because marriage or no marriage, that is not their consideration. The only consideration is how to please Kṛṣṇa and his representative. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya-pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Bhakti-latā-bīja. Bhakti is just like a creeper, and the seed of that creeper can be obtained by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. That is Vedic injunction. Bhūrijana: Kīrtana. Prabhupāda: All right. Bhūrijana: But we are leaving today. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] ...many are Indian. Guest (2) Australian: Chinese. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They are tolerant? Guest (2): They come from China. The kīrtana is something they know.(indistinct) They like it because it's very bright. Prabhupāda: Who has made the picture, this painting? Guest (2): It's Australian. Your servants in Australia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice picture. Who has done? What is his name? Śyāmasundara: Vaibhavī? Prabhupāda: Vaibhavī? Oh. (indistinct) This is very fine. Bhūrijana: When you were in Sydney last time, not this time, these were the pictures that they used, these two over here. And then they sent them to us. Devotee: Guru Mahārāja is very attractive. Prabhupāda: So have kīrtana, yes. [break] Śyāmasundara: We have one hour extra because they've moved up... [break] Prabhupāda: From? Guest (1): Bombay. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Guest (1): The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has started in the United States. Why did it start in the United States, rather than India? *Prabhupāda: Because the United States, they are our best customer. A businessman goes to a place... Just like you have come here. Why you have come here? Wherever there is best possibility of doing your business, there you must go. I went to United States because I know these people are not poverty-stricken. And our Indian people, they are now, they have been trained to think like that*-they are poverty-stricken. Actually, they are not poverty-stricken, but the leaders have educated them that, "You are all poverty-stricken." This is India's position. So far I knew that it would not be successful in India. The government will not help. The public is educated in a different way. They are after technology. So and "familiarity breeds contempt." They say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? It is known to us since a long time. What effect it will have?" Many Indian students in foreign countries, they say, "Swamiji, what will this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement benefit us? We want technology." So that is the mentality of the Indians at the present moment. They have lost everything and therefore they are beggars. They have lost their own culture and therefore they are beggars. So I thought it wise that I shall go to a country where there is no poverty. They will learn. They have enough. For material enjoyment, they have got enough. The material enjoyment means money and woman. That is, in America, it is lying on the street. As much as you like, you can take. But they are disgusted with this material enjoyment. Therefore they are coming as hippies. They are coming from very rich family. Their fathers, their grandfathers, are very rich. At least they belong to the richest nation. But they are not satisfied. They are not satisfied. That is the natural sequence. The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. When one has satisfied his senses sufficiently, he is no longer interested in sense gratification. Perhaps you know C.R. Das, the name of C.R. Das in Calcutta. In those days, fifty years ago he was earning fifty thousand rupees per month, but he was not satisfied. And one day he and his wife were sitting together and the wife questioned, "Why do you look so morose? You have got everything at your command. Everyone respects you. You have got money. Everything you have got, education, popularity. Still, why you are unhappy?" So he simply, by chance he saw one mendicant was passing on the street, a sādhu beggar. So he said, "I want to become like him." He said, "I want to be a mendicant like him." So there are many instances in our history. Just like Bhārata Mahārāja. He was young man, twenty-four years old, and emperor of the whole planet, young wife, king, everything. He left everything. Bhārata Mahārāja passed long, long ago. Buddha, Lord Buddha, he was also prince and very young, and he was surrounded with dancing girls. But as soon as he came out on the street, he saw one old man. "What is this?" "This is old man. Everyone has to become old like this." So he became immediately converted to a saintly person. "I must go and meditate and realize myself. Why shall I become old?" [break] I accept a new opportunities to preach it from everything. That is my philosophy. And it has become successful. If I had taken this position from India... I was trying. In India also, I tried. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are very respectable man, and people like you. You preach Bhagavad-gītā. You stand with your photograph. There is Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you preach Bhagavad-gītā? Now politics is finished. You have got independence." But this politics is so sweet to these politicians, that until he was killed, he could not give up politics, until he was killed. He was advocating non-violence, but he was forced to die by violence. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. He was forced to accept partition of India. He was so much baffled, but still, he would not give up politics until he was killed. On the day of his death, in the morning, because he had so many letters, so many secretaries, so he said, "I am very much useless. I want to die." He said like that. And actually, in the evening he was killed. He was thinking that "My next solace is only death," because he could understand, "I have created simply problems. No problem I have solved. I have simply created problem." He was a sane man. He could understand it. So similarly, everyone is creating simply problems, without solving... This United Nations, what they are doing for the last twenty years? Simply creating problems. So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no question of solving problems. That's a fact. Any sane man, any philosopher, any scientist may come. I shall convince him. Guest (1): How many disciples do you now have, sir, in the U.S.? Prabhupāda: You cannot expect many disciples, but still, there are two thousand. Because I have got so many conditions and the fact is so difficult to understand, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, they have forgotten God, and I am trying to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is a very difficult job. I have to shed my blood three tons before I make one convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my experience. I have to talk with him, especially these Europeans and Americans. They do not accept anything so blindly. They try to... I am always being questioned, even in my tooth(?) Question, question, question. That's nice. Inquisitive, they want to know. So I give them answers. I have got four secretaries always with me. They are giving answers. So to become Kṛṣṇa... Especially in Europe and America, when I make this condition that you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have intoxication, you cannot meat eat, er, you cannot eat meat, you cannot have gambling... This is their daily affair. This is their life. Even Lord Zetland refused, "Oh, we cannot give up these things." So I am controlling them in this way. Still, they are coming. So it is very difficult job. Still, there are many thousands, and they are so sincere that if I ask them that... This boy is going to Red China. I am sending him. You see? So I have asked them, "You go there. You go there." They go even at the risk of life. Yes. It is the duty of the Indians to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but they are preaching very nicely. I am training these foreigners. They are doing this duty. It is the duty of the Indians. It is their culture. But they are satisfied only... If one young man gets a nice wife and a little bit of money, oh, he says, "My life is successful." Therefore I went away. I approached many gentlemen. "Please, you have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall make him a real brāhmaṇa." "Swamiji, (Hindi)." He does not know the value. Therefore I left India, hopeless. And Kṛṣṇa has given me chance, very good chance. Now they are appreciating. When I go to India they become surprised, "Swamiji, how you have done this thing?" This is the reason. Guest (1): Your home base is in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. My headquarter is in Los Angeles. Now we have made very big headquarter in Bombay, Juhu. Twenty thousand square yards. We are constructing a very nice temple there. And similarly, we have got another headquarter at, by pīṭha, in Lord Caitanya's birthsite, Navadvīpa. There also we are constructing very big temple. It is eleven bighās. What is a bighā? About four acres. Guest (1): What about England? London. How is your movement doing? *Prabhupāda: Yes, London is very... There is also. We have got very nice temple near British Museum, 7 Bury Place. And all Europeans, they come to see our temple from Germany, from France. Because we have been advertised in cooperation with the Beatles. The Beatles, Beatles, the George Harrison. You do not know his name? He is very famous man. Yes. So we have produced some records in cooperation with George Harrison's organization. So because the records are produced through George Harrison, we have got a very, very big sale. You see? And that has advertised Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Temple, London. So people come to see what is this Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, out of... Because London, every day, thousands of visitors come in London. They have got visitors buses also, charge nominal. So London is still important. From all parts of the world people come. So anyone who comes, they come to see our temple. Guest (1): When you say, sir, you were advertised with the Beatles, do you have any connection with the Maharishi? Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): No. What do you think of the Maharishi? *Prabhupāda: Why shall I speak of others? Then people will be angry. Better not to touch this point. [break] At least, my position in foreign countries is far better than any swami's, up to date. Vivekananda went there in America about eighty years ago, 1893. So Ramakrishna Mission has got about four or five centers, say, within ten in America. But I have got my centers in America and Europe, forty centers, and so many students. In Ramakrishna Mission you won't find so many American boys as followers, but we have got thousands of followers, all young men, young girls. So that is my hope, that even if I die*-I am seventy-six now-these boys will conduct this movement. I am sure. Guest (1): Where were you born? Prabhupāda: I was born in Calcutta, 1896. Guest (1): And what did you do? Prabhupāda: Yes. I was ordinary man. That's all. Guest (1): Did you work? Prabhupāda: Yes. I worked as a manager of a chemical concern in my family life. I have got my family also, my wife and children, my grandchildren, in Calcutta. But I have nothing to do with them. Guest (1): And when did you start on...? Prabhupāda: Yes. In 1960 practically, I left home. Guest (1): You left Calcutta? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Say, for last twenty*-two years. Guest (1): And where did you go when you left Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. I retired in Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana you know? Guest (1): Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So there I began to write books, and then when three books were finished I started for America. And there also I wrote many books, dozens of books. You have seen our books. Our *Kṛṣṇa Book* is selling like anything in Europe and America. We are practically maintaining ourself by selling books. We have got our book sale all over the world, about twenty to 25,000 rupees daily and we have to spend seven to eight lakhs of rupees monthly. In Los Angeles alone we spend $20,000 per month. In New York we spend $10,000 per month. Guest (1): Doing what? How do you spend it? *Prabhupāda: We have to maintain our establishment, the temple, the Deity, so many devotees. In each center we have got at least twenty*-five devotees. At the most two hundred devotees. So their living costs, everything, by some way or other, Kṛṣṇa is giving us. But we have no fixed income; neither we have any bank balance. Guest (1): In the minds of some people the sudden attraction of Western youth to Eastern religions... *Prabhupāda: No. It is not Eastern. That is a wrong conception. God is for everybody. Eastern people, when I speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "What is this Kṛṣṇa? We know Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn from Swamiji?" "Familiarity breeds contempt." But in the Western countries when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, they see the philosophy. They see the science and become attracted. We, in the very beginning, we neglect: "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Otherwise there is no question of Western or Eastern. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Kṛṣṇa is neither Western, neither Eastern. But Eastern, our, especially Indians, they have learned to reject. That is their education: immediately reject it. This is their new culture, to reject everything. At least Jawaharlal Nehru began like that, "Anything Indian is bad. Everything London*-made is good." That was his philosophy. And if one European would go to see him, immediately admission. And if an Indian goes to see him, three days he has to wait. So Jawaharlal made this impression, that "Everything Indian is bad, and anything made in London..." Because he was made in London. He was educated in London. So everything nice. Although in my household life I was doing some business in connection. I had to see Jawaharlal Nehru. So when he was common man, I went to his house. I saw it is completely Europeanized, although he is in khādi. So his father, he hated Indian medicine. You see? Motilal Nehru. A doctor, his family physician, he told me. I was doing medicine business. So I introduced one preparation, pulti(?). That was in a clay pot, anti-floristan(?) So doctor said personally, "If I prescribe your pul, jagal-pulti(?), that Motilal Nehru says, 'Doctor, in case of medicine, please do not prescribe Indian.' " You see? So this is our mentality. We have got all foreign mentality, but still, we are claiming that we have become independent. Not indepen... We are culturally conquered by the materialistic advancement of foreign countries. We have lost our own culture. This is our position. Guest (1): Thank you so much. I'm sure... *Prabhupāda: So many Indian swamis, they requested me to dress myself with coat*-pants. I never agreed. You see all my pictures. They are all foreign pictures. So I never (indistinct) this dress also. Why shall I take to coat-pant? What is use? Now my students, they are giving up coat-pant. And girls, they are taking to saris. There is now good demand for saris in Europe and America. Bhūrijana: They were even telling me that here, that I should wear like a diplomat's clothes instead of dhotīs. They don't... They were ashamed. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall go now? *Śyāmasundara: It's seven*-thirty. (end) Room Conversation -- April 20, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: So what prasāda you have prepared? Cintāmaṇi: Um, Kārttikeya Prabhu? Prabhupāda: Kārttikeya Prabhu, where is Kārttikeya? (laughter) So all right. Then... Devotee (1): There's some rasagullās and some fruit. We have some fruit, and vegetables. Prabhupāda: I wanted some samosā. Devotees: Ah. Prabhupāda: Sudāmā Prabhu, can you prepare it? Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So do it. Śyāmasundara: You've got a nice little house down here. Just perfect. Your own house. Little kitchen is there too. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Isn't there a kitchen down there? Prabhupāda: There is no kitchen? Śyāmasundara: A little one. Prabhupāda: All right. We can prepare kicharī. So Karandhara Prabhu, how do you like this place? Karandhara: It's nice Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is for, I mean to say, spiritual advancement is nice place. Devotee (1): Today for the first time in many years it is the nicest. Prabhupāda: Yes. What did he say? Trivikrama: He said because you are here, Prabhupāda, it is very nice. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No. You have reached here last night? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is like our New Vrindaban. Eh? Devotee (1): It is better. Prabhupāda: You had been in New Vrindaban. But there are other residential quarters also. Hm? Trivikrama: There is one rented motel for you Prabhupāda. There's a section of a small motel. He has rented. Prabhupāda: Oh. Who has rented? Trivikrama: Just very close. Śyāmasundara: Sudāmā. Prabhupāda: Sudāmā. Śyāmasundara: He rented one nice little cottage for Your Divine Grace. And a little cottage next door for the servants. Karandhara: Here are some gifts from the devotees in L.A. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is this? Something sweet? Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You open it. Open it. What is this? Karandhara: That is sandalwood pulp. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is that? Devotee (1): You're not thirsty? It's water. Prabhupāda: Keep it. Mrs. Jollet.(?) Oh, so many letters. Śyāmasundara: Checks. These are checks, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's nice. When you bring checks, I am very glad. (chuckles) So how much you have deposited? Karandhara: In which account? Prabhupāda: My account. Karandhara: Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa was writing that he wanted that... I have saved up for Māyāpura thirty thousand. But he said to send it there. So I have been waiting. He wrote a letter and said to send the money there. So I wrote him and told him he has to have him and Jayapatākā sign a requisition, I think. I instructed... Prabhupāda: No... What is that? Devotee (1): Lugdu. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is this? Some picture? Trivikrama: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ten thousand was transferred from my account. So that has been replaced or not? Karandhara: I have it. I didn't put it in the account because I thought you wanted me to send it to Māyāpura. But I haven't sent it yet. I still have it in another account. Śyāmasundara: You just informed Tamāla that from now on we would send only books, that we would prefer to send books from this side and let them sell them. Prabhupāda: No. The thing is that you were collecting something for Māyāpura account? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So how much it has come? Karandhara: Thirty thousand. Prabhupāda: Thirty thousand. Śyāmasundara: Separate from books? Karandhara: Yes. Śyāmasundara: That's separate from books. Prabhupāda: So this ten thousand was given from my account. So this has to be replaced. And then, whatever you have got for Māyāpura account, that is to be transferred. That was a trial business. So we took from bank ten thousand worth. So that is done. Now you transfer the ten thousand to my account, and balance you keep ready for transferring. That also I will advise you how to do. Besides that, out of the 33,000, you deposited eighteen thousand? Karandhara: No. 18,600. Prabhupāda: Six hundred. Karandhara: I still owe fifteen thousand. Prabhupāda: That money is not yet done. Karandhara: By June. Prabhupāda: Oh. By June. All right. We shall talk further. What is this? So Los Angeles is... Everything is all right? Karandhara: Yes Prabhupāda. Those are all... All the different envelopes are from the different departments, Spiritual Sky, Mail Order, Iskcon Media. Prabhupāda: So you keep it in this envelope. Then I shall see. Śyāmasundara: They have purchased $8,000 worth of equipment for recording your voice. Prabhupāda: Oh. That will be very nice. So I can give lectures daily? No. What is the arrangement? Karandhara: Yes. As soon as you come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're going to shoot the first TV show. Śyāmasundara: You have a video tape machine here? Prabhupāda: Now, if I explain some of... Just like I explain one verse. In this way, if I do explain one verse, do you think it will be all right? No. Śyāmasundara: Each day explain one verse. Prabhupāda: Each day or as you like. Or what is your program? Karandhara: Well, as far as this recording, we have a studio right there in the temple. You could record... Prabhupāda: You distribute that prasādam, little, everyone. Devotee (1): This lugdu? Prabhupāda: Yes. I will also take little. Distribute. What is your program? Karandhara: Well, we thought we could do both because we have a recording studio for sound. So you can come into the recording studio and record as much as you wanted, all day long. The shooting for the TV show... We worked out a program of shooting each week forty minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh, you take more. Why little, little? Give more. Give me also little more. Trivikrama: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Mm. It is very nice. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda distributes mercy to the world. Prabhupāda: Who has made it? Karandhara: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is good cook? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mm. He has made nice. Sudāmā: Shall I save one for later for you? Prabhupāda: No. No saving. (laughter) Give me immediately. (laughter) Give them. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda? Your Divine Grace? I have a question. I was always under impression or understanding from your teachings, that one never eats in front of the Deities. Can you please explain that? Cause I understand you are pure devotee. Śyāmasundara: He says that he always understood that one should not eat in front of the Deity. What is the difference? Prabhupāda: Difference is generally we should not eat before the Deity. But there is another injunction, prasādaḥ prāptir mātreṇa bhoktavyaḥ. As soon as we get prasāda you should immediately eat (laughter. Sound of Prabhupāda eating prasāda.) Take this. So we shall have to go there? Śyāmasundara: Yes. We can go now. Here is some water. You can wash out the window. It's dirt below. Prabhupāda: Everyone got? Everyone? No, I shall go there. (end) Room Conversations -- April 22, 1972, Japan Prabhupāda: ...count how you got this. Sudāmā: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa sent these from Los Angeles three years ago. Cintāmaṇi: They're staying in closet. (?) Prabhupāda: So who will paint? Sudāmā: Cintāmaṇi will paint. Prabhupāda: So take note. So eyes are all right. Eyes are all right. It is all right. Simply you have to, all the hairs to make black up to the...It is all right? Cintāmaṇi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then His hands should be red. Cintāmaṇi: What about this? She's holding? Prabhupāda: She holds the sari, skirt. Give me some cloth. Sudāmā: Some cloth. Prabhupāda: Like this. Cintāmaṇi: Oh. Prabhupāda: This is the... Do it. And this hand is betel nut. Cintāmaṇi: Betel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cintāmaṇi: What color should it be? Prabhupāda: Green. Cintāmaṇi: Green. Prabhupāda: Yes. Green. Green. In dancing mood, She is offering a betel nut to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is dancing and playing with flute. So this should be white and red. These are petals. It should be red. And this should be white. And a little black line. Is that all right? Then this. They should be all red. And the nails should be white, nails. Cintāmaṇi: Also... Prabhupāda: Hands red and nails, yes, you can make white. You can... Go on. So any other? Cintāmaṇi: I made wigs, but maybe they are too long. Prabhupāda: What is that? Cintāmaṇi: I made hair. But I don't know how long it should be. Prabhupāda: That you can see Kṛṣṇa's picture. Cintāmaṇi: Picture of Kṛṣṇa? Is His hair curly? Prabhupāda: Yes. Curling, (indistinct) black. Cintāmaṇi: Is this too long? Prabhupāda: Too long. This is also too long. Cintāmaṇi: Too long. How long should it be? Prabhupāda: It should not come below, Rādhārāṇī, the waist. Cintāmaṇi: Oh. And Kṛṣṇa's? Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa's should be up to the neck. Cintāmaṇi: Thank you. Kṛṣṇa wears tilaka like we do? Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhārāṇī only red spot. Sudāmā: We have some... Prabhupāda: Any other questions? Sudāmā: Yes. Bhānu: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Since we are going to have three altars, then we should also have three different plates, a different plate for each altar? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is already known to you. Bhānu knows very well. You have seen in Los Angeles. Why three plates? If you can spare more plates for each, that will be nice. Just like one for Rādhā and for Kṛṣṇa, one for Jagannātha, one for Balarāma, one for Subhadrā, one for guru, one for Gaurāṅga, Pañca*-tattva, five. If you can increase, you can manage, that is nice. Otherwise one plate to guru is sufficient. If you cannot spare. If you can spare, you can increase as many plates as you can. Otherwise one plate to guru is sufficient. Devotee: On ekādaśī, we can offer the Deity grains? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. But not guru. Ekādaśī observed by jīva*-tattva, not by Viṣṇu-tattva. We are fasting for clearing our material disease, but Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Caitanya Mahāprabhu also may not be offered grains because He is playing the part of a devotee. Only Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Jagannātha can be offered grains. Otherwise, Guru-Gaurāṅga, no. And the prasādam should not be taken by anyone. It should be kept for next day. What is that? Cintāmaṇi: I tried to make a flute for Kṛṣṇa because He doesn't have a flute. Is that okay? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: We will order one flute from India. Prabhupāda: Why India? You can get it here. Any goldsmith can do. Bhānu: In the morning the Deity should be woken up not before five? The Deities should be woken up at five in the morning? Some temples it is 4:30, some temples five. Prabhupāda: Just one and a half hours before sunrise. If the sunrise varies, then the waking time also should vary. Sudāmā: So according to season, we should... Prabhupāda: The rule is that one and a half hours before sunrise. So that you have to make, when the sunrise, then just one and a half hour before, maṅgala-ārati. Sudāmā: So that's when the ārati begins, when the curtains are opened and we start offering. Prabhupāda: Hm? Sudāmā: One and a half hours before sunrise is when the ārati begins. Then you wake them up before. Prabhupāda: No, no. Just waking, ārati begins. And you can offer something. Bhānu: We should offer the plate after the ārati? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: After. Devotee: Is it all right for the Deities' hair to show? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: Sometimes, at some temples, the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities, sometimes Their hair shows. Prabhupāda: Shows? Devotee: Yes. Like Rādhārāṇī's hair is down in front. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. That is for beauty, as it is possible. Better keep it that side. Just like Rādhārāṇī's hair... There is picture. That gopīs, they have got their hair that side. Rādhārāṇī is also one of the gopīs, but she is the dearmost gopī. That's all. Otherwise, she is also gopī. Then? What else? Sudāmā: Bhānu had a question about something. Bhānu: Does evening ārati vary according to the sunset? Or it is just... Prabhupāda: No. Sunset. Sudāmā: And how many full āratis should we perform, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Three main: maṅgala-ārati, bhoga-ārati and sandhya-ārati. These are main. Then you can offer śayana-ārati before going to bed. śayana-ārati. And these four, and dhūpa-ārati just after lighting, or before lighting. Then, after rest in afternoon, dhūpa-ārati. After dressing, dhūpa-ārati. So two, three dhūpa-ārati, and three, four full āratis. Three must be, and four also, four, full āratis. And dhūpa-ārati at least three, four. In this way. Bhānu: The full ārati will be in the morning, maṅgala-ārati, there will be the noon ārati, supposed to be one in the evening. When should the other full ārati be? Prabhupāda: When the Deities are going to bed. Before going to bed. Yes. śayana-ārati, it is called śayana-ārati. Sundara-ārati, bhoga-ārati, maṅgala-ārati. You write down. Maṅgala-ārati early in the morning, bhoga-ārati at noon, offering prasādam, then sundara-ārati just after half an hour or one hour sunset, then śayana-ārati. Pradyumna: One hour after sunset? Prabhupāda: Yes. One hour or half an hour. It must be dark. Pradyumna: Oh, the śayana-ārati. Prabhupāda: No. Sundara-ārati. Sundara-ārati must be as soon as it is dark. And then śayana-ārati. Śayana-ārati. Śayana means going to bed. Pradyumna: What time should the śayana... The time? Prabhupāda: Afternoon. Bhānu: Should the Deities be offered grains for breakfast? Prabhupāda: No. Grains...Grains only bhoga-ārati and at night... Purī also grain. It is also grain. And during daytime, cāpāṭī, rice, dahl, like that. Breakfast, fruits, milk, sweets, breakfast. And early, maṅgala-ārati, condensed milk. And breakfast, butter, sugar candy, casein. You are calling Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. You must offer Him nice things. Not a poor man gets like Him. He's the richest man. If a poor man can be supplied so many things, how the rich man should be offered? And as far as possible, distribute prasādam. [break] People should be called. Sudāmā: So we should take the Deity prasādam and our prasādam and go to all the houses? *Prabhupāda: No no. You invite them, that "Anyone, you are welcome. Take prasādam." We can announce. Then you can judge how many people are coming daily. You should announce that "Anyone can come and take prasādam at noon." It is the duty of a gṛhastha to loudly cry, "If anyone is hungry, please come. We have got still food." That is the duty of a gṛhastha. If one does not come, then the chief of the house, he takes prasāda. If somebody says, "I am hungry," so he should offer his own food. "You eat." This is duty of gṛhastha. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanti. Those who are cooking for themselves, they are simply eating sinful things. That's all. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma*-kāraṇāt [Bg. 3.13]. So hospitality is one of the duties of the householder. Atithi. Atithi means guest without any information. That is called atithi. Tithi means date. So if I go to your house, I inform you that "Such and such date I am coming there." But atithi, he does not inform you, all of a sudden comes. So you should have to receive him. That is called atithi. Pāntha. People are moving... Formerly, if some of the walkers in the street, suppose he has become hungry, so he enters anyone's house. So "I am hungry sir. Give me something to eat." He'll immediately, "Take." Pāntha-bhāga. There is a stock of foodstuff which is called pāntha-bhāga. If somebody comes all of a sudden, he should take. Pradyumna: The temple should always have some prasādam there? Prabhupāda: Temple must have. Even ordinary gṛhastha. That is Vedic civilization, not that we cook for ourself, for my husband, for my wife and children, eat it sumptuously and go to bed. No. Even gṛhastha, he should be always prepared to receive guest. Yes. And even a guest comes, your enemy, you should receive him in such a nice way that he will forget that you are all enemies. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Vedic civilization, not that "Beware of dog. Please don't enter here. You are forbidden to come here. And if you come, I shall shoot you." Sometimes they do that. This is not human civilization. It is cats' and dogs' civilization. So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? If I am like cats and dogs, I cannot criticize others as cats and dogs. I must be first of all human being. Then I shall teach others how to become human being. I must become first of all devotee. Then I shall request others to become devotee. Āpani ācari jīve śikhāilā bhakti. First behave yourself perfectly; *then teach others to become perfect. That is preacher. Now we are selling The Process of Creation but if I do not know what is the process of creation, we do not read, if you go to sell some book, then if he says, "What is the process of creation? You explain," and if you say, "All right, let me consult my book..." Kuto gata vedyaḥ para*-hasta-gataṁ dhānam. Para-hasta-gataṁ dhānam means, "I have got enough wealth." "Where it is?" "It is in other hands. It is not in my possession, in others' possession." This kind of possessing wealth has no value. Similarly, when somebody asks you some question, if you say, "Let me consult my book," that knowledge has no value. "Let me consult my book." So all these books are there. You see one śloka studying, knowing. It takes one hour. So there are millions of ślokas. How much you have to study. So these things are to be noted. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means perfection, all round perfection. Then people will much appreciate. There is no doubt about it. And we can go anywhere, everywhere, because we are pure. We are giving the right thing. So is there any artist here who can draw? You can? Cintāmaṇi: Little bit. Prabhupāda: So can you make a rough sketch just of this building and in front a temple with arches. I will take and give you photograph. You have got those photographs, Śyāmasundara? Śyāmasundara: You haven't given me yet. Prabhupāda: Second set of photographs that was taken? Śyāmasundara: Oh, oh, of the temple. Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can make drawing. Cintāmaṇi: Make a sketch of this end... Prabhupāda: Yes. And in front a temple, high arches, big temple. I will give you the photo. Where is the photo? Śyāmasundara: I have negatives. I have to get some photos made. Prabhupāda: No, you got some photos made? Śyāmasundara: That other boy in Sydney, Śyāmalālānanda, he has. Prabhupāda: Anyone takes, but he sleeps. He doesn't deliver. I wanted to send immediately to Bombay. Śyāmasundara: Bombay has a set of photos in the temple. Sudāmā: If you have the negative, we can get them developed while we're at Dai Nippon, thirty minutes. If we take negative today, we can get them developed very quickly at Dai Nippon while we are waiting. Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. You take it. Śyāmasundara: Get several sets. Prabhupāda: So when we have to go to Dai Nippon? Sudāmā: The car will come around noon, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So send Nanda Kumāra to give me massage. I will be ready. Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we set the date of installation for the third, next Wednesday, beginning from 4:30 in the afternoon. Prabhupāda: 4:30? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. Sudāmā: And is there any special thing we should make, prepare for the installation? I think the other... This one boy Steven is taking initiation on that day. Prabhupāda: So that will be nice. Bhānu: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it all right to offer the Deity condensed milk that is already condensed? Prabhupāda: Hm? No. Call... Where is Nanda Kumāra? I shall take massage. (end) Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: ..."Necessity and Chance"? Pradyumna: "Chance and Necessity." *Prabhupāda: That is whole theory of the atheist class men. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Aparaspara... Aparaspara... Just like one man and woman unites all of a sudden and there is pregnancy. This is chance. Pradyumna: By sex desire alone the world is created by... *Prabhupāda: Sex. Yes. Kim anyat kāma*-haitukam. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam: "Except sex desire, where is the other cause of creation?" That is atheistic theory. Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. So all of a sudden two opposite parties become sexually inclined, and by chance there is pregnancy and there is production. This is their theory. There is no plan. It is like this. Because they are creating like that, there is no plan. Then why there is...? Therefore they say, "It is legalized prostitution, marriage. There is no need of marriage." Pradyumna: Oh. Prabhupāda: "Why should we go under legal?" Pradyumna: Why should there be a plan when it comes... *Prabhupāda: This is... This is their atheistic theory. But our Vedic civilization is putrārthe kriyate bhārya putra*-piṇḍa-prayojanam. Prayojanam. Piṇḍa, piṇḍa-dāna, offering piṇḍa by the son, is necessity, puṇyena narakāt trāyate, because the son delivers the forefathers from the hellish condition of life. There are so many plans, and they say, "Oh, there is no plan." Ignorance. We say that there is necessity of a putra, or a son. Therefore to have a son, a wife is necessary. Therefore wife is accepted. This is a plan. But they say that it is... "Whenever you feel, just like cats and dogs, sexually inclined, have sex." That's all. Where is plan? This is difference between atheist and theist. They have no plan. Sex desire is necessity of the body we have, and all of a sudden there is pregnancy. Avoid. Try to avoid pregnancy by contraceptive. Or if it takes place by chance, that's all right. There is no question of plan. These rubbish theories are going on and they are getting Nobel Prize. They are educated. They are philosopher. John Lennon is a philosopher. You see? This is going on. Ginsberg is a big man. George Harrison is a big man. You see? Eraṇḍāpi dhūmyate(?). When there is no tree, that, what is called? Castor tree, castor. Eraṇḍa. It doesn't become higher than this. "Oh, here is a big tree. Here is a big tree." Where there is no tree, that tree is big tree. So when the world is finished of all intelligent men, George Harrison is big man, that Ginsberg is big man, John Lennon is big man. According to Vedic civilization they are fourth-class men. This dramatic art was being done by a professional fourth-class man. Nāṭaka, māgadha. Just like Kṛṣṇa was taking bath with His friends, and there were some professional musicians. They were playing music. And after taking bath, all the clothes were given to them. *Prabhupāda: ...so many assistants. Similarly, God can expand Himself for different... So Lord Buddha appeared to stop animal killing. Keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. This is Sanskrit. Lord Kṛṣṇa, Keśava, He was very much compassionate on the poor animals. "And now you have appeared as Lord Buddha," buddha-śarīra, "taking the body of Lord Buddha." Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. He was so much compassionate by seeing unnecessarily animal sacrifice. When there was too much animal sacrifice in India, Lord Buddha appeared. And in the Vedas there is recommendation for animal sacrifice in some sacrificial ceremony, not ordinarily. And that sacrifice is meant for testing the power of chanting mantra. An animal would be put into the fire, and it would come again with renewed life. In this way, there is recommendation in the Vedas that some animals... But people misunderstood it. People began to sacrifice, rather, slaughter. At that time Lord Buddha appeared. So we worship Lord Buddha as Kṛṣṇa. You are all Buddhists? Dai Nippon representative: I am Buddhist. Prabhupāda: So Buddhist religion I think animal sacrifice is prohibited, or what? Animal killing? What your religion says about animal killing. Stop or not? Dai Nippon representative: In Buddhism, in my religion, originally it was, prohibited, but now, (laughs) somewhat changed. Prabhupāda: So you come to again to the original. Yes. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are teaching no animal killing, no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication. All my students, they are strictly following these principles all over the world. They are American, Europeans. So I have got students all over the world. Some of them from Christian, Buddhist also. I have got Japanese, Chinese, my students. Perhaps you have seen one of my students. His name is Bhānu. Formerly what was his name? Sudāmā: Bruce Enimoto. Prabhupāda: Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dai Nippon representative: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. (two men speak in Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: In our religion also, the priests are vegetarian, but it is not for all. Prabhupāda: Only priests? Only priests? Dai Nippon representative: Priesthood. Priesthood. (Japanese) It has somewhat changed now. *Prabhupāda: We are all priests because we are preaching. All my students and myself, we are preaching. We are on the priestly level. So our philosophy is ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Everyone has got some professional or occupational duty. Just like you are printer. We are preachers. Somebody is something else. Everyone has got different occupational duty. So our philosophy is that it doesn't matter what business you are doing, but see that your life is successful. That is our philosophy. And how our life can become successful? Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. If you can preach Lord Buddha or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter. I have already explained Lord Buddha is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. So if Lord Buddha is satisfied, then your life is successful. It doesn't matter what you are doing, but by your action Lord Buddha must be satisfied. Just like your assistants. Their business is to satisfy you. Whatever they may do, it doesn't matter. If you are satisfied, their business is successful. Japanese devotee: Your Divine Grace? I would like to explain the background between your activities and (indistinct) (Japanese) Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: After I asked Mr. Karandhara if he would like your organization to publish more and more books, he said yes, and in order to improve our service... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dai Nippon representative: In order to makes ourselves better, you know... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is success. Dai Nippon representative: And Mr. Karandhara give us suggestion that Dai Nippon would open a liaison office in Los Angeles in order to save time and in order to make a good communication. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dai Nippon representative: And our president would like to hear of your opinion or comment on that suggestion. Prabhupāda: So how do you think, that suggestion. What is your idea? Dai Nippon representative: (Japanese) He would like to see our liaison office in Los Angeles... (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Karandhara, you speak. Karandhara: Mr. Sumoto(?) and I already spoke at length about this and we came to the conclusion(?) that it would save us so much time in our communication. In that way we could expedite all of our work. So we were hoping... We were very enthusiastic about the idea of opening an office there. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Dai Nippon representative: (indistinct) The details were discussed already. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: Divine Grace, please allow that we are, we getting to the businesslike (laughter) conversation but... Prabhupāda: One thing I shall request you, that our missionary activities, we are not exactly businessmen. You see? Our only idea is these books are published for missionary activities. So exactly we are not business power. So I will request your chairman that even sometimes you find something, discrepancies, you don't mind it, because we are not strictly businessmen. Yes. But we are very sincere. We shall reciprocate very sincerely. But sometimes we are not strictly like businessmen. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: What Mr. Tajima(?) would like to tell you, that he is also businessman. So our talking is getting to be businesslike. So please allow him. But if we send one liaison officer in Los Angeles, we need some expenditure over there. You see? So we, Mr. Tajima(?) expects you to increase the publishing of your books more and more. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes. That we shall do, certainly. That is certain. We are very much enthusiastic to see more publication, more publication. We take this publication work as big drum. You know with clay drum? So this is big drum. When we play drum, it is resounded within some quarters. But this drum is going from country to country. So it is bigger drum. (Japanese) Karandhara: Printing of the books is our most, one of our most important activities. And if you will study our, the society, ISKCON society, you will see that it is growing very fast, more and more growing now all over the world. The publishing of our books is growing also. Just like last year we had so many jobs, this year so many jobs. Next year at least twice as many jobs again. Your work will continue to increase more and more. (Japanese) *Prabhupāda: I have explained Kṛṣṇa, as good as Lord Buddha. (Japanese) You don't go to India to see the birth place of Lord Buddha? You do not go? In Kapila*-vastu. Kapila-vastu, on the valley of Himalaya. Lord Buddha was prince. Dai Nippon representative: Yes. Yes. He was. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many Buddhists pilgrims, they go to see. And there is one stūpa, stūpa. Buddhist stūpa. What do you call in Japanese, that dome? Dai Nippon representative: Dome, yes. Prabhupāda: So Sāketa(?)in Madhya Pradesh. So that is considered... Buddhist pilgrims, they go. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: I understand that Buddhists can eat pork only. Prabhupāda: But originally, Mr. Chairman said that they did not. Originally it is prohibited. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: Originally Buddha did like to eat pork. Prabhupāda: Buddha? Dai Nippon representative: He ate pork, and then he became sick and died. Prabhupāda: But in our India... Of course, Lord Buddha was kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas were allowed to eat meat by hunting. Dai Nippon representative: Hunting. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king*-the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service. (Japanese) *Dai Nippon representative: Year and a half ago, Mr. Tajima, he lose his son, twenty*-eight years old. Prabhupāda: Yes, I heard. In some accident? Dai Nippon representative: By traffic accident. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dai Nippon representative: And since then Mr. Tajima has been very sad... Prabhupāda: Religious. Dai Nippon representative: ...because of his loving son was dead. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was the eldest son? *Dai Nippon representative: Twenty*-eight years. He was youngest son (indistinct). And so how do you think about death from Kṛṣṇa? How do you value death? How he can relieved from such sadness? Prabhupāda: What is that? Karandhara: He's asking how can he be relieved from such sadness when his son has died? How do we evaluate death? Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So our program is that, as I have already explained, the success of everything depends how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. So if you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then whatever you want, He will give you, benedict. I will give you one instance. It is stated in *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Kṛṣṇa was a student of Sāndīpani Muni. So when Kṛṣṇa finished His education, it is the system that the disciple gives some, I mean to say, reward, presentation to the spiritual master, because he has educated. So the disciple requests his spiritual master, "Now I have finished my education. I am going home." Formerly the student used to live with the spiritual master. "So how can I serve you?" So at that time the spiritual master, whatever he wants, the disciple will supply. So in the case of Kṛṣṇa, the teacher knew that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So when Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma asked his teacher, "How can I satisfy you?" so they requested, "My dear boys, I lost my child very young. If you kindly bring them, then I shall be very much pleased." So Kṛṣṇa went underneath the sea and brought his son back. This incident is there. So my point is that whatever you want, Kṛṣṇa will give you. You try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (Japanese) Prabhupāda: (aside:) What is this? Japanese tea? I see. Water? Cold water. Ice water. So you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, and you will be blessed and your son will be blessed. You pray to Kṛṣṇa. Wherever he may be, he will be happy. You believe in incarnation, next birth? Next birth? Karandhara: Reincarnation? Prabhupāda: Reincarnation? Yes. So your son, he must have taken some body somewhere. So if you pray to Kṛṣṇa, wherever he may be, he will be happy. He will be happy. How many sons? Dai Nippon representative: This is my only son now. Prabhupāda: Be blessed. He is youngest. He was oldest? Dai Nippon representative: No. My younger brother also died. My younger brother. Prabhupāda: Oh, your younger brother. Oh, you are eldest. Dai Nippon representative: He is my son. Prabhupāda: Yes, I can understand. How many sons you have got? Dai Nippon representative: Three. Prabhupāda: Three. That is nice. And daughters? Dai Nippon representative: Two boy and one daughter. Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone gives Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ..." Patram means leaf. Puṣpam means flower. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ. Phalam, phalam means fruit. And toyam means water. So if anyone gives with faith and love to Kṛṣṇa patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, He eats and drinks. And if Kṛṣṇa eats and drinks our offering, then our life is successful. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: Divine Grace? Meija Tajima(?) was vegetarian too. From eighteen years old up to twenty years, for two years he did eat only vegetables. Prabhupāda: So now? Dai Nippon representative: No. (laughter) Since Mr. Tajima lost his son, he has been reluctant to eat beef or meat. He doesn't like meat. Prabhupāda: We have got so many nice vegetable preparations. We prepare from milk casein with nice preparations. If you want some of our assistants will teach you. So I think instead of eating meat, if you eat that preparation, it is tasting almost like meat, but it is strictly milk preparation. That is as much nutritious also, full of vitamins. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: Even you catch cold, you don't go to, you don't consult with doctor, medical doctor. Prabhupāda: Yes. We avoid doctor's bill. Yes. As far as possible. And we, because we are vegetarian, hardly we get sick. If you take strictly vegetarian food, you will avoid so many doctor's bills. Yes. Because our constitution is meant for eating vegetables. Just like this teeth. This is not meant for eating meat. It is meant for eating fruits, vegetables, grains. Our constitution is made like that. In India still 80% population [break] ...grains, milk products, vegetables, fruits, and sugar. You can make hundreds of nice palatable dishes. Sometimes we invite Mr. Tajima. You accept our invitation. You'll see. The other day I invited your assistant. (Japanese) Dai Nippon representative: There are some special vegetables for the Buddhists also. Vegetable meat. Prabhupāda: Vegetable meat? Dai Nippon representative: Vegetable meat for Buddhists. Prabhupāda: Oh, vegetable meat. Yes. Yes, Buddhist, I know that. They are strictly vegetarian, those who are strict followers. So now we have to go to some train? Karandhara: Are there any other points? Dai Nippon representative: (indistinct) Karandhara: Yes. (indistinct) ...on this point. Is there any...? Dai Nippon representative: Yes, well, at present also, (indistinct) we are going to open our liaison office in Los Angeles. Karandhara: Yes. Have you heard from Mr. Oyage yet? (indistinct) Dai Nippon representative: Yes. I think he has to come in Sunday. So to be... Karandhara: Yes, he's probably meeting with Jayatīrtha. (indistinct) Dai Nippon representative: Other ways we are quite satisfied. Karandhara: Oh. Thank you. We are also very satisfied. Prabhupāda: You started this business? I am asking your father. (Japanese) *Dai Nippon representative: This factory(?) is going to have ninety*-seventh year anniversary. And Mr. Tajima has been working for this company since... Prabhupāda: What is his age? *Dai Nippon representative: ...twenty*-seven years old, for forty-three years. Prabhupāda: He is in connection. So by God's grace he is a successful businessman. Nice. So I take your permission. (end) Conversation in car -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: Almost they have become Europeanized. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: In every respect. Sudāmā: The president seemed very interested, somewhat, in our philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hm. He's a nice gentleman. (pause) They are still satisfied in wooden house? Sudāmā: The Japanese people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Practically our sales are improving only for their printing. Their printing is very attractive, I think. Sudāmā: Very much so. Prabhupāda: Oh. You must admit that. *Sudāmā: Yes. The attracting cover of a Back to Godhead magazine, done so nicely, and the presentation and the devotees there*-a man is just inclined, "Yes, let me see. Let me see what it's about." [break] (new sequence-Prabhupāda sings hari hari biphale in the car) Prabhupāda: We say that in whatever occupation you may be, try to find out some time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our preaching. So it will help you. At least you will get, even if you are attached to the material activities, you will get next birth a human body, rich family, another chance, or Vaiṣṇava family. That is also great benefit. Even there is no salvation, but he gets opportunity again. (sings another line) So Karandhara Prabhu, what advantage you will get by opening their office there? Karandhara: Well, all of the communications can be done with the liaison officer. He'll have a telex, so I won't have to wait for two weeks to get a letter back. I'll just speak with him, and he can telex. And we can save the money we're spending now on telex. And sometimes it's hard, sometimes it's hard for them to understand my English and it's hard for me to understand their English. It takes a little elaboration. So if there's a person there to speak with and he can speak with them in Japanese and with me in English, it's simpler. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, there will be a great many advantages, but they have to expend for that service. They will expect some more business. That will... We think we shall be able to give him. Karandhara: Also they should be able to... There's no reason why they can't find lots of business there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Karandhara: They will probably be able to find lots of other business. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Oh yes. Therefore they are... Not that they are coming for our business. Sudāmā: Right. Because they are businessmen, they have intelligent mind to use. Prabhupāda: They are... This is only starting. Otherwise they'll have enough business. Karandhara: We've introduced them... Mr. Oyage, he's in Los Angeles now. We've introduced him to a big printing agent. So he may make some more business also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They will get. Automatically they will get. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. (sings hari hari biphale) Is it far? Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Some new devotees are joining us in our all centers? Karandhara: Yes. Not so many as before, but the ones that are coming are much more fixed up. Before some would... Ten would come and seven would leave. But now they don't come so much, but when they come, they stay. Prabhupāda: They stay. (sings softly) The students dress like policemen? Sudāmā: Yes. They all wear uniform. Karandhara: Right now there are twelve brahmacārīs in Los Angeles who are getting ready to go to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Karandhara: They'll be going on about the 5th of May, the 6th of May. I think also the same number in New York are preparing to go. Prabhupāda: Now we have got enough place. Yes. Very nice place, Vṛndāvana. And we are expected to get another place at Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's birth place. Oh, that is very nice place also. (end) Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: It will be finished in about sixty volumes, like the one already you have got coming? Karandhara: Sample. Yes. Five coming. They are printing five already. Prabhupāda: Five coming. So similarly, we have to reprint our First Canto. Karandhara: That's what they're printing now. First and Second Canto. Prabhupāda: First and Second Canto. So all the First Cantos? Karandhara: Yes. Three volumes. Prabhupāda: Three volumes. Karandhara: And two volumes of the Second Canto. Prabhupāda: Then third, fourth, fifth. And the Tenth Canto will be about... There are ninety chapters. Karandhara: Ninety. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are accommodating how many chapters? About six? Karandhara: It depends on the length of the chapters. Sometimes ten, sometimes six. Prabhupāda: So on the average, if you take eight chapters, then it comes to... Karandhara: Eight volumes. Prabhupāda: Eight volumes in the Tenth Canto. Then Eleventh Canto, Twelfth Canto. So altogether it will be sixty volumes. One book, sixty volumes. Perhaps there is none in the world, one subject matter. So that I wish to contribute to the world, with the cooperation of Dai Nippon. Yes. It will be record contribution to the world thought. Karandhara: Already the first volume of the Third Canto and the First Volume of the Fourth Canto, they are ready to be printed. I have them in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. So now our Sanskrit editor is there, Pradyumna. Karandhara: The work will go much faster. Prabhupāda: Hm. And if Hayagrīva also finishes, then I can give daily one chapter. Karandhara: Per day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Should be able to produce a volume at least every month. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the editors must be very expedient. Besides that, I think this *Kṛṣṇa Book*, smaller edition, that will have very soon another reprint. Karandhara: At least ten million we will print in the *Kṛṣṇa Book* pocket size. *Prabhupāda: And Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, Macmillan Company's. They have taken. And they are also printing yearly fifty thousand or more than that. At least in Western countries there is no such thought of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is completely... That professor, what is his name? Karandhara: Dimmock? Prabhupāda: Dimmock. He has given very good appreciation. And gradually it will be printed in other languages. German, French, Spanish, Denmark, Holland... Karandhara: Danish. Prabhupāda: Danish, yes. And we are getting also Hindi layout from India. That Hindi magazine also will be printed. Gradually other Indian languages. And Japanese and Chinese also. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... Karandhara: If Dai Nippon opens a liaison office in Los Angeles, then it will be very easy to work. The contract is for all the jobs. Prabhupāda: The officer who will remain there, he will be final or you have to consult with Mr. Ogata(?) and...? Karandhara: Well, their liaison officer there, he will correspond with Tokyo. They will fix up estimates and confirmations. But it will make the communication better. Prabhupāda: (chants japa) So there are many Japanese vegetarian? Or he is only. Dai Nippon Representative: Lately it is quite increasing in Japan, yes, becoming popular, because we have a lot of problems with pollution. We have a lot of social problem like pollution, traffic jam. So people, in order to keep good health, vegetarian is very good for health. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vegetarian food is very nice. We can give you vegetable menu, three hundred items at least. Dai Nippon representative: Three hundred? *Prabhupāda: Three hundred. Simply grains, fruits, and butter, that's all, and sugar. You give us these four items and we give you three hundred items. Yes. There is a ceremony in India, annakūṭa, Govardhana*-pūjā. So in that ceremony, in each and every temple they prepare as many varieties as possible. Some of them prepare three thousand. Dai Nippon representative: Three thousand. *Prabhupāda: Yes. For weeks they prepare. And the competition is the more items the temple prepares, he becomes... [break] And distribution, prasāda distribution, free of charges. It was a very nice system that nobody should remain hungry. That is the system. If there is any temple in any neighborhood, in that neighborhood nobody should remain hungry. The Vedic system is that in your house, a householder shall see that even a lizard in the house is not hungry. He must also be given food. Even there is a snake*-nobody likes snake-but a Vedic householder has to call the snake and give him food. He also may not remain hungry. This is the... And these things will be explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that anything, wherever it is, on land, on the air, sky, within the water, everywhere, God's kingdom; *and all living entities, they are God's sons. So everyone has got the right to take advantage of his father's property. This is Bhāgavata communism. The communists are thinking in terms of their own country. But we, a devotee, we think in terms of all living entities, wherever he is, either in the sky or in the land or in the water. These things are explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Everything, politics, sociology, religion, philosophy, science, astronomy-everything is there in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And we should not take this movement as a religious movement. It is not religious movement. It is a movement for understanding knowledge. Veda. Veda means knowledge. So religion, according to English dictionary, is a kind of faith. Faith you can change. You have faith today in something. Tomorrow you may change. So this is knowledge. Any human being must be interested with advancement of knowledge. So you are waiting to stop me? Photographer: No, sir. (indistinct) Sudāmā: He is waiting to have a very nice pose of Your Divine Grace. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So Veda, Veda means knowledge. So every human being should be interested for advancement of knowledge. So our movement is not a religious movement. It is a movement for advancement of knowledge. And this knowledge, God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is especially meant for this human body. Because knowledge cannot be given to animals. I cannot speak to the other animals about knowledge because they are imperfect. Their body is imperfect. They are not suitable for receiving knowledge. Only elementary knowledge for maintaining this body, they have got: where to secure food, where to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse, and how to defend. These knowledges are there in animals also. So human being requires further knowledge. That is special prerogative, gift by God, by nature. Whatever you say. So we should utilize this human body for furtherance of knowledge. And the first important knowledge is that we should know that there is life after death. That is the basic principle of knowledge. Unfortunately at the present moment, in no university there is any department of knowledge where this education is given where there is life after death. I am traveling all over the world. There is no such department. They have completely evaded or set aside because they cannot make any solution whether there is... I talked with one Mr. Kotovsky, a Russian professor in Moscow. I was in Moscow. He said, "Swamiji, there is no life after death." Just see. He's a big professor and his knowledge is so imperfect that he says that there is no life after death. So that is the position everywhere. Those who are teachers, they are with imperfect knowledge. The teachers in the universities, they are with imperfect knowledge. Now, life after death, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is very easily explained that just like a child has next life, boyhood. The boy has next life as youthhood. The youthhood has next life, the old age. So why not the old age next life? If we are passing through so many stages of life from birth or from the womb of the mother, then what is the reason that one does not believe there is no life after death? Can you say, any one of you? What is the reason? You remember your boyhood body; *I remember my youthhood body. So that body is no longer existing, but I am existing. I remember my childhood body. My babyhood body also, I remember, particularly. When I was about six months old, I still remember very vividly, I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister, and she was knitting. I remember still. Yes, six months. I remember when I was only about one year old, there was a great saṅkīrtana in our house and I also joined the dancing party. And I was seeing up to their knees, very small. So I remember those days. And then after that, I was a boy. I was very much fond of cycling. So many things. Yes. So many dangers, so many adventures. Now I am old man. So all those different stages of body, I remember. But these bodies are not existing. So similarly, I remember or forget, but I was in different types of body*-that's a fact. So similarly, after leaving this body, I will have another body. That is natural conclusion. What is the difficulty? Why I shall conclude that after end of this body? (end) Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney Śyāmasundara: There's no alternative. (end) Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: So, fix up the zone. Śyāmasundara: Well, we pretty much fixed it up, except... Prabhupāda: So write, write. Take, take some paper. Here is paper. Here. Śyāmasundara: I think that, that the Southeast Asia... Prabhupāda: Take this, take this map. First of all find out the zone, what will be the zone. Śyāmasundara: The Southeast Asia and Australia we'll join in one zone. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: The Southeast Asia and Australia if that were one zone, it would be alright. Prabhupāda: Make it. Śyāmasundara: It wouldn't be too difficult. Prabhupāda: So write, write that. What one, two, three. What is the one zone, zone number one? Śyāmasundara: Eastern U.S. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Oh, you mean before? Prabhupāda: No before, and now. Śyāmasundara: Alright, Southeast Asia, Australia. Prabhupāda: That is one? Śyāmasundara: That is one yeah, if everyone is agreeable. Prabhupāda: They agree, everyone will agree. It is not a question. (laughter) First of all make the zone. Whatever I'll say, he'll agree. That is not the problem. First of all make up zone. Śyāmasundara: Alright. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Hong Kong, North and South Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, (indistinct), Australia, New Zealand, Fiji Islands, Samoa, and Tahiti. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Tahiti. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Make that one zone. Then next zone? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all divide the whole world. It doesn't matter who goes where but... Devotee: India, Pakistan, (indistinct discussion), Bangladesh, (indistinct) China. Then we have the Mediterranean zone. Prabhupāda: China, China goes to the... Devotee: Southeast Asia? Śyāmasundara: Far east. Prabhupāda: Where is Japan? Devotee: It is more north. Prabhupāda: No, no what is the name? Devotee: And Korea... Prabhupāda: What we are naming? Far east? Devotee: One zone we'll call Japan, we'll call it far east. Prabhupāda: So, China is nearer to Japan. Is it not? Devotee: Well it's very big. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: China is very big. It could be even more because it touches... Prabhupāda: China is big, but we have no center (indistinct). Devotee: Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: So Hong Kong under which zone? Śyāmasundara: Well, it's very close to Manila and Manila is in part of Southeast Asia, Australia. Prabhupāda: So Hong Kong is already zone? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Devotee: (indistinct*-devotees entering and exiting room) Devotee: Previously Hong Kong was part of Southeast Asia. Prabhupāda: Now? Devotee: Still. We linked China with Hong Kong and put it with Southeast Asia. Peking, Peking is much closer to Japan. Prabhupāda: Divide the whole world into twelve parts. That is first. *Devotee: (indistinct*-devotees converse in background for some time on map and countries) Prabhupāda: Africa is one. *Devotee: Yes. (indistinct*-more background discussion on map and countries) *Prabhupāda: Gradually this GBC, they can take assistants to help them. (indistinct) One change, Toronto, just see (indistinct) not be necessary. Take care (indistinct*-more background discussion on map and countries). Devotee: Twelve zones. Prabhupāda: Twelve zones means? Devotees: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Whole world? Let me see. (reading) Southeast Asia, Australia, Japan, Korea, (indistinct), India, Central Asia, Mediterranean, Germany, Africa, South America, British Isles, Eastern Europe, Central Europe, Western Europe, (indistinct). So now you have to specifically mention Mediterranean means this. Similarly, all these center(?) should be specifically mentioned this. Devotee: I was waiting till Śyāmasundara Prabhu came back. Prabhupāda: Now so far division made by (indistinct), we are present. I'll represent him, that's all. And who else? Devotee: Sudāmā Maharaja. Prabhupāda: Eh? That was I'll represent. So... Devotee: Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara. He has been already agreed. Girirāja also. Those who are absent, I've written them. Now, so far Hayagrīva Prabhu is concerned, he has resigned from this. And he'll concentrate on editorial work. And Kīrtanānanda will become the president of New Vrindaban. So, that question is solved. Now, how the New Vrindaban will be managed, that we shall decide. Devotee: We talked about that this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So Hayagriva Prabhu is exit from GBC. And now others? Sudāmā is there. So one exit and one new one, Girirāja is there. And, how many of you are now existing actually? Devotee: There is seven here. Prabhupāda: Seven here, eight here including Śyāmasundara. So who are those four? One Sudāmā. Devotee: He is here. Prabhupāda: Ah. Hamsaduta? Devotee: Madhuvisa. Prabhupāda: Madhuvisa is new, from the old. Devotee: Oh. Rūpānuga: Kṛṣṇa Dāsa. Prabhupāda: Eh? So he is out. Devotee: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Tamal Kṛṣṇa is out. Kṛṣṇa Dāsa is out. Hayagrīva is out. So out of twelve, three out. So who are the nine? Devotee: Sudāmā and... Prabhupāda: Eight present here. Devotee: Haṁsaduta. Rūpānuga: Seven present including Hayagrīva. So... Devotee: There's eight present and Hayagrīva's out so that makes seven. Prabhupāda: You are three and three, six and seven. Oh, seven. So seven, Hayagrīva and present, eight, and three out. So who is the next nine? Devotee: Haṁsaduta and Sudāmā. Prabhupāda: Oh, Sudāmā. That is alright. Then, alright. Now three out. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are Hayagrīva Prabhu and Kṛṣṇa Dāsa Prabhu. Then? Devotee: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. So out of the three we are adding Brahmānanda, Girirāja and Madhudviṣa. Devotee: What about Gaurasundara? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (indistinct) America. Prabhupāda: Oh, Gaurasundara. So, Girirāja, Brahmānanda and Madhudviṣa we want to maintain. Then... (door opens and closes) Three candidates, four, new? *Rūpānuga: Because originally Bali*-mardana had a zone but now he's with ISKCON Press so actually he doesn't have a zone any more. Prabhupāda: Oh. He has... So you are also out. (laughter) Devotee: It's really a difficult problem. Prabhupāda: Ah, no problem. GBC means now they should tour very extensive. That is the first principle, the GBC. Not sit down (in) one place and pass resolution. No, they must be active. They must act like me. As I am old man, I am traveling all over the world. Now to give me relief, the GBC members... I shall expand into twelve more so that they can exactly work like me. Gradually they will be initiators. At least first initiation. You must make advance. That is my motive. So, in that way I want to divide it in twelve zones. And we have to make more propaganda throughout the whole world. Now if you think that the world is so big, twelve members are insufficient, then you can increase more than that and make the zone similarly divided. It is world affair after all. Devotee: Srila Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Devotee: The reason why we have thirteen here is because Bali*-mardana, he is actually at the Press, he doesn't actually have a zone at this time. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: So Madhudviṣa is taking my zone. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: So only keep thirteen GBC at this point? Will Bali*-mardana stay at the Press and be considered GBC? *Prabhupāda: But, he is not going to travel, Bali*-mardana? Devotee: No. Devotee: Unless he can find a substitute to manage the Press. (indistinct). Prabhupāda: First point is the GBC member must be extensively traveling. Devotee: What about my position, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Now, everyone's position will be considered. This is the first thing, extensively traveling. *Devotee: So, the positions of Bali*-mardana and Karandhara, they have to remain stationary so much. We have to consider that... *Prabhupāda: No, stationary one thing is that the Bali*-mardana, especially Karandhara, he has got already extensive field locally. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He has to manage so many things. So extensively touring means for the mission expanding, that is the point. Simply touring is not required, but doing something substantial to increase the interest of the society. That is the point. So, Karandhara has got many department supervisors(?), so he can be given to work, and sometimes go away (indistinct). So, his position is like that. And similarly Bali*-mardana's position is there. He can be also if he has got many engagements, many departments managed there. So he may not tour but our only aim is that one must take multi-responsibilities. *Śyāmasundara: Why not Bali*-mardana tour sometimes to check on the foreign literatures, French, German, see how they are going on and inspect the foreign literature field. Devotee: (indistinct) planning to take speaking engagements in the colleges. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotees: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So we shall increase. You can increase the number. So according to vacant position, how many, it may be fifteen? Devotee: Thirteen. Prabhupāda: Why not fifteen, make fifteen? Devotee: We are thinking of (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: We are thinking of (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Or anyone, you can do. Then you have to reorganize the zones, fifteen zones. Rūpānuga: This is much better if we're actually expanding. *Prabhupāda: Yes, we must expand, we must expand. Now the framework of expansion is done by me, but this, they should be solidified. Just like your skyscraper building. The framework is done then they are made nicely air*-conditioned and covered by glass (indistinct). It makes a nice house. Similarly, so far the framework is done. I have done with your help. Now we have to push this movement. It is very important movement. It is not a farce. It is actually for the benefit of the human society. They are kept in darkness about God. And we are delivering God, "Here is God." So that must be pushed. What is your opinion? Devotee: Jaya! Prabhupāda: They are kept in darkness about God. Somebody is speaking, saying "God is dead." Some is (saying), "God is impersonal. There is not God. I am God, you are God," all this nonsense. Here is God. We have to push this. What do you think, Hayagrīva Prabhu? So, Hayagrīva Prabhu is taking charge of pushing this movement by help in editorial work. So that is most important because we are distributing books. Our writing will be gospel. Devotee: (indistinct). Prabhupāda: We have to edit in such a way, present our literature in such a way that it will be gospel truth. Devotee: Oh! *Prabhupāda: Authorized. That people will refer to our books. So we have to very cautiously print our literatures. It is not ordinary literature, fiction, or something, story. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhāgavata. They are not ordinary. literature. Without any four defects of human frailties. Bhrama, pramāda, vipralipsa, also... We are following those literatures. So our writing should be so authorized that in future one may not find any fault, contradiction. We shall have to, cautiously. The ideas are given there now... In future of course, it requires that we shall increase (indistinct). But for the present, we have to push on this movement with positive, I mean to say, conviction, that here is God. God is neither dead, nor every one of you is God, nor is He imperson. God is a person and we give you His name, address, father's name, activities. Here is God. So, we have to (indistinct). So if you have got any doubt about it, then you cannot do it. If you have got any doubt that whether Kṛṣṇa is positive God or (indistinct) then you cannot do it. That is the first qualification. If you are yourself not convinced, how you can convince others? This is our propaganda. This is our mission. (indistinct). Whether you are all convinced on this point? That here is positive God. What is your opinion? So far I am concerned, I have no opinion, convinced. (laughter). Therefore, I am pushing on. It is a fact. I am pushing on because I am pushing on fact, not fiction. That much I am personally convinced. Whenever there is somebody says, "You believe". "No, I don't believe, it is fact." Any press reporter, that press reporter. Devotee: Hm. *Prabhupāda: It is not the question I believe and don't believe, it is a fact. God is there*-you believe or not believe-but God must be there. Your believing, not believing, it doesn't matter. If I don't believe there is no president, it does not mean there will be no president. There must be president. I do not know who is president. (indistinct) So people are in misconception that there is no God, God is dead, I am God, you are God, God is not person, so many God theories. But we have no theory, we have got a positive presentation, "Here is God." With that conviction we have to push on. So you must be prepared in that way. There will be so many questions, so many opposing elements. You have to face them by your arguments, by your knowledge. This is required. At least we must have faith in that way. We have to push on. This is the fact. We are Brahmā sampradāya, Lord Brahmā's sampradāya. So, Brahmā sampradāya, Lord Brahmā is giving. Just like last evening we were reading about Brahmā's thought. He is posing, "Yes, here is, You are God." Although He was child, "He appears to be a child, but You are God." That is Brahmā (indistinct). He is giving support on that point. So if you follow Brahmā then there is no question, here is God. And he writes in his saṁhitā, Kīrtanānanda: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That is the point. Our advancement means the more we meet opposing elements, "Oh, that is alright." Therefore preacher is the best devotee because he is a soldier. Just like government gives all importance to the fighting soldier. When there is war, all comforts for the soldier first, then the civil people. There was no butter in Germany, there was no butter. But the soldiers were profusely supplied with butter. And sometimes when the enemy attacks, they throw it away and go away and go to another shelter and still there is butter. That my Godbrother (indistinct) when he first came to India I asked him that, "I heard that you German people are very robust, stout and strong, why you are so thin and weak?" So he replied me in this way that, "In my childhood when I was eight years old weekly I was getting butter for (indistinct)". Everything was controlled, even for children. But the soldiers, there was no control. So that is, my point is, that those who are soldiers, fighting on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, they are brave soldiers. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Nobody is dearer than him who is in the process of preaching this Bhagavad-gītā." So, in order to become very dear to Kṛṣṇa... Actually that is the position. So we must preach in that way-by our literature, by our magazine, by our books, by our speech, by our arrangements. Of course, very peacefully, we are not very (indistinct), becoming violent (indistinct). But by argument, by words, by our methods, by our preaching, we have to convince. So selected fifteen men, not twelve (indistinct). It may increase more. Now we have got very many centers, but the duty is very responsible. So as, so far the center is concerned, the local president is (indistinct) man. The GBC can supervise that things are going on. The first management is that each and every member in the temple is chanting sixteen rounds regularly and following the regulations, that's all. Otherwise we have no... That is our spiritual strength. That must be executed. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, such exalted personality, such advanced, still he is numerical counting even up to the point of his death. Therefore he was given the nāmācārya, because so rigid (indistinct). Even at the time of his death, Lord Caitanya requested, "Now you can minimize." "No sir, I cannot minimize." And what is the number? 300,000. These are the examples. (indistinct ) Sometimes... But the regulation is that if one day you cannot finish, you have to finish on the next day. But sixteen rounds is not very large number, the lowest. The lowest in India is twenty-five(?). Here sixteen rounds, twenty-five, not even twenty-five. So the president, local president, must see that the members are chanting. So this way the institution will be managed, then it will make progress. That is our spiritual strength*-to observe the regulative principles and at least chant sixteen rounds. Then you do other things. This is the biggest institution of spiritual activities so everyone of us should be spiritually strong. Otherwise, superficially if we want to manage, it will not be possible. (indistinct). Devotee: Which one? Prabhupāda: Sun Times? Devotee: Los Angeles Times. Prabhupāda: Maybe. They are not (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are serious. They have got, they have got (indistinct). Our seriousness will be proved when our books and (indistinct) around thinking men, scholars. Similarly, we should introduce our (indistinct) colleges and universities. This is our program. So I have got my program now, (indistinct). So so far, Vṛndāvana question is concerned, there is, it is solved. Now you make, utilize, and place yourself in the world (indistinct) I want. Devotee: There are two more GBC appointments that have been made, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are already. Now extra. Now we are increasing to fifteen. Śyāmasundara: Practically, there is not much... To divide Europe into another zone. Prabhupāda: No, for the time being you can do it like that. So three has already entered and three has already gone. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa has gone, Hayagrīva has gone, and Kṛṣṇa Dāsa has gone. And we are introducing three: Brahmānanda, Girirāja, and Madhudviṣa. Devotees: Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara. Devotee: So shall we keep the number at thirteen, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Make it, make it (maybe?). Devotee: Thirteen is... Prabhupāda: Or you can make it out to fifteen, I have no objection. Devotee: Your Guru Mahārāja wanted twelve originally? Prabhupāda: He wanted, but he was manage Gauḍīya Maṭha. We are managing the whole world. Guru Mahārāja (indistinct) less intelligent than (indistinct). Śyāmasundara: We can divide it up into smaller and smaller parts. Prabhupāda: What you do now, this is my manifest plan, you... And so far Vṛndāvana is concerned, now there are three properties, so ideally one should keep (give?) his own property. Is that all right? (indistinct). Devotee: That leased property. Prabhupāda: Leased property. So I am not concerned. (indistinct) I want that you should live very peacefully and concentrate your mind for (indistinct). And we are not disturbed with these arrangements. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will be (indistinct), then that problem is solved. Now you make divided zones and work (indistinct). I want to (indistinct). That's all right. Devotee: Do you want us to make more zones now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: You make ourself. Because thirteen, you are making now thirteen. You make thirteen. *Devotee: No, actually there's twelve, and Bali*-mardana is staying at the press and he is going to travel around. We want to increase and make more... *Prabhupāda: That's all right, that's all right. Bali*-mardana will be stagnant. Śyāmasundara: He can oversee some foreign... *Prabhupāda: Yes, he has this book department. Book department and... They may move according to convenience, Bali*-mardana and Karandhara. He has got also very responsibility, with this department, that department. He has to purchase small houses. So big brain (indistinct). So similarly, you also think on the books. Everyone take big responsibility. Then we have to serve this mission. The people are foolish, they have forgotten God. We are delivering them. Best service. And without God, it is all useless, zero, all this civilization. Zero. Whatever they are making advancement, it is all zero. And nonsense. But actually it is. Now the priestly order supporting homosex. I was surprised. They are going to pass resolution for getting married between man to man. The human society has come down to such a degraded position. It is astonishing. When I heard from Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja there is a big conference for passing this resolution. In India still, if there somebody hears about homosex (makes sound of breathing out). Homosex is there but nobody will support publicly. (indistinct) People are going down and this is the subject matter for priestly order? It may be subject matter for the legislator, priestly order, they are discussing for one week. Just imagine. Phalena paricīyate, one has to study by the result. Not that superficially you show that "We are very much advanced." Phalena, what is the result? Phalena paricīyate, your, that is in English word also, end justifies the means. The end is this (indistinct) "We are going to support homosex." Getting married. There are many cases the priestly order has actually got married. I read it in that paper, Watch, what is called? Devotees: Watchtower. *Prabhupāda: Watchtower. They have complained(?). So we have nothing to (indistinct) them. The world is degrading to the lowest status, even less than animal. The animal also do not support homosex. They have never sex life between male to male. They are less than animal. People are becoming less than animal. This is all due to godlessness. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā [SB 5.18.12], godless civilization cannot have any good qualities. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano rathena asato dhāvato... They simply go to the untruth by mental speculation. (end) Conversation -- May 28, 1972, Los Angeles Girl: I didn't check. I just poured it in. Prabhupāda: You check after giving it? This is not . . . Girl: How can I distin . . .? Prabhupāda: How is that? Eh? Girl: I didn't know. Prabhupāda: Yes? Girl: It's my fault because I wasn't conscious of what I was doing. Prabhupāda: It is your fault but is it grievous fault that you put something instead of something? Girl: What can I do? Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: What can I do now? Prabhupāda: How it was done? What is that thing you put? Girl: Salt. Prabhupāda: Salt? Girl: Yes. It tastes like it. Prabhupāda: Tastes like. You know that it is . . . that was salt? Girl: Well, I didn't know. Prabhupāda: So somebody responsible should be in charge. That way instead of salt something may be put. So many people cooking is going on. All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- May 28, 1972, Los Angeles Girl: I didn't check. I just poured it in. Prabhupāda: You check after giving it? This is not . . . Girl: How can I distin . . .? Prabhupāda: How is that? Eh? Girl: I didn't know. Prabhupāda: Yes? Girl: It's my fault because I wasn't conscious of what I was doing. Prabhupāda: It is your fault but is it grievous fault that you put something instead of something? Girl: What can I do? Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: What can I do now? Prabhupāda: How it was done? What is that thing you put? Girl: Salt. Prabhupāda: Salt? Girl: Yes. It tastes like it. Prabhupāda: Tastes like. You know that it is . . . that was salt? Girl: Well, I didn't know. Prabhupāda: So somebody responsible should be in charge. That way instead of salt something may be put. So many people cooking is going on. All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- June 4, 1972, Mexico (conversation with Martin, a Marine Biologist) Prabhupāda: Marine biologist. How many forms of fishes are there within the ocean? I know. I know. (laughter) Martin: That is why I'm here. *Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousands of different forms of aquatics. Nine hundred thousands. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāni (Padma Purāṇa). Jalajā means species of living beings born in the water. They are nine hundred thousand. How many you have got experience in your biology? Martin: I studied one. Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: I studied one. Prabhupāda: One only? Martin: One. (laughs) I, I concentrated on one. I learned of some of the . . . (indistinct) . . . (sound of thunder), maybe a thousand. Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousand. Exact number. (aside) Bring that socket. Pradyumna: Oh, this? *Śyāmasundara: That two*-way. It's on top of the desk. *Prabhupāda: Jalajā nava*-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . And two millions of trees and plants, botany, botanical. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati , kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā. Insects, there are eleven hundred thousands forms. Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā . Then, pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam . From insect, they become flies and birds. Pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam , one million. Then from birds, the beasts come, four-legged, triṁśal-lakṣāṇi : three million species of beasts. *Then from beasts, the human form comes—either from monkey or from lion or from cows. Out of these three . . . sattva*-guṇa , rajo-guṇa , tamo-guṇa . Those who are coming through rajo-guṇa , their last birth before human form of birth is lion. And those who are coming in the form ignorance, Darwin's father-in-law, (laughs) monkey, and ignorance. And those who are coming in goodness, their last form of birth is cow. So this is our scientific information from the *Vedas* . We haven't got to make a research. Everything is there. That is Vedic knowledge. They have got already everything written there. The astronomy, everything is written there, simply you have to calculate. Astrology, we say simply mathematical calculation: if the moon is in this position and the other stars is in this position, then the effect will be like this and the result will be like this. Like that. So you haven't got to make search or research. It is already there. Similarly, this Darwin's theory is there in two lines: Asati , asati means eighty; *catura means four. Eighty and four lakṣāṇi , lakhs , 100,000. Eighty*-four hundred thousand, that means 8,400,000. Aśītiṁ caturāṁs caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu . Jīva means living entity; *jāti means species. Jīva*-jātiṣu. Brahmadbhiḥ : the living entity is wandering, or transmigrating, from aquatics to trees, plants, then insect, then birds, then beasts. In this way, the last is human form of life. Brahmadbhiḥ . Brahmadbhiḥ , wandering. Puruṣair prāptaṁ , last he is getting mānuṣaṁ jiva . . . janma-paryāyāt , by the evolution of birth. Now this form is for understanding Govinda, God. The other forms, they cannot. So if in this form the living entity does not contact Govinda . . . contacting Govinda means surrendering unto Govinda. As Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate ( BG 7.19). So after many, many, many millions of births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That is our program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Martin: So there's something higher than human form? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The demigods, deva , deva*-tiryaṅ-narādiṣu (SB 1.2.34). Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings. Martin: Primitive cavemen? Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: Primitive cavemen? Prabhupāda: No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts. Other than. Martin: Oh, I see. (sound of thunder) Prabhupāda: But this human form of life is better than demigods' life, because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods." Is it not? Martin: The Indians thought. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Because they were better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then you get chunks. *That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in*-charge of that department is a demigod. Creation, Brahmā; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Śiva. Martin: How is the human life better than that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: How is human life better than the demigod? *Prabhupāda: Better than in this way, that just like here also in this mat . . . on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're proud, puffed*-up for material opulence: "Uh. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us enjoy, drink." *That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle*-class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very higher standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget. Not forget; they are servant. Just like government servant does not mean a devotee. So they are devotee, officially devotee. *They, they offer their obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. Śiva*-viriñci-nutam (SB 11.5.33), worship by Lord Śiva or Lord Brahmā, but their devotion is conditional because they're posted in such high post, so they may remain in their post. In this way, exchange. But in the human society you'll find devotees, there is no question of exchange; it is simply love. (sound of thunder) Martin: These demigods are what we call angels? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So how does science fit in with all of this? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Let him speak. Martin: This is why I'm here. I know science . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? So he can . . . Martin: I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling. Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: It's just the empty one half of the world. Prabhupāda: Scientist business is he can become a great devotee. Just like: (aside) You sit down. Why you don't sit down, like that. *Yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. Idam hi puṁsa , sviṣṭasya . . . tapa . . . sūktasya tapasaḥ . If you are scientist, scientist means you are learned, learned scholar. You know; you've heard from the books so many things. So your duty will be that whatever you have learned, you try to explain all these scientific research work as qualification of the Supreme Lord. Any scientific law, just like law of gravity . . . (aside) You are following? Devotee: Si , si . *Prabhupāda: Law of gravity . . . the big, big planets are floating in the air. Now you can explain how it is floating. The hint is already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that He enters. Viṣṭabhyā idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42), dharayani aham ojasam that, "I enter into this universe, and by My prowess they are floating." These hints are there. Now you are a scientist; if you are actually devotee, then you try to explain from your scientific explanation that this floating is possible because God has entered within it. That is your duty. And because you're scientist, your explanation from the scientific point of view, how God has entered, how He is acting, that will be very well received by the public. So that will be great service. Actually that is the fact. It is already stated there that, "I enter." We can understand. Yes. We believe. I'll explain. Just like that balloon. What is that gas? Hydrogen gas? Martin: Helium. Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: Helium gas. Prabhupāda: Helium gas. So helium gas has entered within the balloon, and it is floating. (laughter) So if the helium gas can float, cannot God float? If helium gas has so much power, the God is less than helium gas or He is more than helium gas? So what is the difficulty to understand? God says: "I enter." So similarly, the helium gas enters and it makes possible that it floats. So where is the difficulty to understand? I see in my eyes. So He can become big helium gas. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): "I am the taste of the water." Water is important. We are drinking water for the taste. That taste is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, if you explain this law of gravitation which we have discovered is Kṛṣṇa, prove it by your scientific knowledge, that will be your service. Actually that is the fact. That is the fact. But you have to explain, just like I have given you this example. This is scientific. As you can float a balloon by creating helium gas, so there must be some gas like that; Kṛṣṇa enters into each and every planet or universe and it floats, that's all. They, not only the planets are floating, the universes are also floating. So you accept this theory or not? If not, clearly explain. Martin: I, I, I cannot reject it. Prabhupāda: That's . . . Martin: Because you know more about it than I do. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Martin: You are obviously a wise man. *Prabhupāda: That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ (BG 4.34). Those who are tattva-darśiḥ , those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them—that is direction in the Bhagavad-gītā —not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, tattva-darśiḥ . Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender, then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient. *Just I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can . . . if you give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take . . . drink water, because there is peculiar taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst*-quenching taste is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). *There is no need of seeing Kṛṣṇa. You can perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . You can argue, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I do not see Kṛṣṇa. How can I . . ." Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water, you know that taste is Myself." So you can see or perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa's giving hints, "You worship Me like that." And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye to eye, but He can be perceived, anubhavānanda . What is that word? Parasya . . .? Pradyumna: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ . Devotee: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Parasyānubhavātmanam. Anubhavātmanaḥ . So at the present moment we can understand God by anubhava : "Here is God." The hint is given God . . . by God that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya , that "I am the taste of water." You cannot create this taste. You can make water, hydrogen*-oxygen mixing, but you cannot create the taste so that that water may be taken. Is it possible? Martin: It is possible to make water, and I rely on you to say that it is not possible to make the taste. Prabhupāda: That . . . just like from perspiration we are also creating water, but nobody is going to drink that water. Nobody is coming to lick my body, "Here is water." (laughter) That is not possible. Śyāmasundara: Even if they mix hydrogen and oxygen and get water, still, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the chemical comes? Such vast seawater, so where you got so much chemical? Then the next question, that "Who supplies the chemicals?" Martin: I've been there before. They all come down the same . . . they all come to the same place. You said that it is possible to see God eye to eye. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Martin: How can this be done? Prabhupāda: You have to be qualified. Martin: How can you be qualified? *Prabhupāda: This is the process going on in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You become devotee, you follow the rules and regulations, the prescribed method, you'll see God. You'll see constantly, twenty*-four hours. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti , premāñjana cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). If you have developed such devotion and love for God, then you will see always God. Just like if you have got a child whom you very much love, you'll see the child always in front of you. Always. It is due to love. So similarly, you have to develop love for Kṛṣṇa and you'll see Him. He can be seen by love, not by your method. He is not under any method, but He is under love. So you have to develop love, and then you'll see. (aside) There is no flavor? Is it any flavor? Martin: It's very faint. Śyāmasundara: Mexican incense. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Christian incense. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so all science of God is described in Bhagavad*-gītā. Śyāmasundara: This morning you said that Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist because . . . because He is a scientist, then we can have our science, as a reflection Prabhupāda: Yes. The, ah . . . do you accept it He is the original scientist? Martin: I can accept the fact that Kṛṣṇa, being God, created everything which science studies now. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. That is the fact. That is the fact. So despite my becoming a scientist, I am a subordinate scientist. Our . . . my scientific research is going on under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Because the experiment which you are making in the laboratory, the ingredients, they are produced from Kṛṣṇa. The mind with which you are working, that is produced by Kṛṣṇa. And the direction, you are receiving from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you prepare something, that is Kṛṣṇa's production. Kṛṣṇa is indirect cause and you are direct cause. (aside to Śyāmasundara) The other day while coming on the plane you told me that they are trying to make copy of the brain of . . . Śyāmasundara: Einstein. Prabhupāda: Einstein. So still, if you can copy, even if you can copy, you are not the original scientist, because that brain of Einstein is already created. So original creation is God's. So you can imitate. So you are imitator scientist. (break) Is it not? Martin: It's true. Prabhupāda: Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a Xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men. If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind the professor has died. We create another person like." That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all, it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy, a Xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you have the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain. That you haven't got. You are trying to take Xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their . . . the shape is made after the bird. The original shape, bird, is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that? That is not possible. Then what is your credit? Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest. Śyāmasundara: And our big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane. Prabhupāda: That's it. You cannot create a male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Third millions. And again third millions, another million, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies. He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. Sa asṛjata , sa īkṣata . These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic, one television button you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening you see. So if it is materially possible . . . it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain. So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, param . Therefore He is called parampuruṣa , parameśvara . Parama means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Kṛṣṇa. But His brain is different. Just like you are scientist, your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which has no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than his—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone's and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God. How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best strength. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is God. Martin: But how can I know with my inferior brain . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: . . . who has the best brain? Prabhupāda: That you can understand. Just like you are a scientist brain. You can do something which I cannot do. That much I must accept that you have got better brain. What is the difficulty? Martin: But . . . how can I know? Prabhupāda: You can know directly that, "He is doing better than me." What is the difficulty? I can see . . . just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us." Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act. So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me." Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding. *And the Vedas also advises that, "Go to a better man," śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), "one who heard better, and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and brahma . . . as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa," brahma-niṣṭham . These are the qualification of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things have to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master. Martin: But there are many spiritual masters in the world. Each says what you say. *Prabhupāda: Each says, but you have to judge. Just like when you go to purchase a two*-shillings'-worth goods, you go to different stores. Everyone says: "Oh, my thing is very nice." But you have to judge which one is best. That depends on you. If you are a fool, then somebody will cheat you. And if you are not a fool, then you will know . . . just like these rascals, they call themselves God. Such a fools can cheat another fool only. But one who knows what is God, he'll not accept it. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, he'll not accept him as God. He'll immediately compare, "What you have done like Kṛṣṇa or better than Kṛṣṇa then I shall accept you God? We have already our God, Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove that you are better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." That he cannot, so why I shall accept him God? Why shall I accept him spiritual master? That depends on your intelligence. If you are less intelligent, then you'll be cheated by this false God. So everyone has got intelligence, individuality, power of understanding, so you should try to use them, and then you can understand. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) I'd like to ask what do the scientists explain is the origin of life. Do they have any explanation how life is caused? Martin: Oh, the scientists concern themselves with the process, not the reason. They, right now, scientists are spending a tremendous amount of time duplicating this process, trying to be able to produce life in the laboratory. This now, they are saying that thus they will be able to say that this is how life started in the beginning of the world. It does not take . . . scientists don't concern themselves with why life started, just how, what method. Śyāmasundara: What do they think, how it started? Martin: Oh, they think life started by the effect of the atmosphere . . . Prabhupāda: Then the atmosphere is the cause. Now the next question is, "Who created the atmosphere?" (break) Martin: This doesn't . . . this is why I feel science . . . I do not feel . . . Prabhupāda: They have not found out the ultimate cause. They take a process which is going in the middle way, therefore their science is imperfect. But our science is perfect. We have found out the ultimate cause. The cause of all causes. Therefore our science is perfect. We have found out the cause of all causes. But the material scientists, they simply can look to the process, how it is working. Just like a child sees the machine, how it is working, but he cannot know who has produced the machine. Therefore we see the child scientist. (laughter) Not better scientist. Śyāmasundara: What is the definition of science? Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Perfect knowledge. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Martin: I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know what is the meaning of science? Martin: No, I don't. Prabhupāda: Then why you call science? How do you call, "This is scientific"? Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen. *Prabhupāda: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ (BG 7.10). The seed of this rose tree is Kṛṣṇa. All kinds of seeds are Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, from one seed you'll find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. Another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or varieties of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Kṛṣṇa. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory a seed of . . . what is that tree? Śyāmasundara: Banyan? Banyan tree? Prabhupāda: Banyan tree. A small seed, very small. It contains the potency of a big banyan tree. You cannot create such seed. You create something, just like you are creating vitamin tablets. You are proposing that "No more eating required. You simply take some vitamin tablet." Is it not? Similarly, you create some tablet and sow it in the earth and big banyan tree comes. Then I will accept you. (laughter) Martin: You, you say that . . . (break) . . . who created this knowledge that this flower and the banyan tree is Kṛṣṇa. What place in the divine scheme do such great names as Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad have? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha, we accept him as incarnation, as expansion of Kṛṣṇa. He's Kṛṣṇa working as Buddha, Lord Buddha. Keśava dhṛta buddha śarīra (Daśāvatāra*-stotra 9). He has accepted body of Buddha. That is our conception of Lord Buddha. Martin: And Jesus Christ and Muhammad? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Martin: They were all the reincarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: I see. *Prabhupāda: Yad yad vibhūti . . . any, anyone who is showing some extraordinary power, he is supposed to be incarnation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ mama tejo 'ṁśa*-sambhavam (BG 10.41). The brilliant energy. He represents the brilliant energy of Kṛṣṇa. And the energy is not different from the energetic. (aside) Hmm. What is that? Śyāmasundara: I just said that this is a very good sound track of your speaking—this chanting and rainfall (there is a kīrtana in the background). Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: Can a true devotee come face to face with God through the teachings of Buddha, the teachings of Christ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Teachings of Christ, teachings of Buddha, they were meant for a particular type of men. Generally it is meant for everyone, but especially for a particular type of men. Just like Lord Buddha, he preached ahiṁsā . They were a particular type of men. Lord Jesus Christ also preached a particular type of men. "Thou shall not kill," that means they were killing. Is it not? If I say: "Thou shall not steal," that means you are thief, you are stealing. So a kind of preaching amongst the thieves and a kind of teaching among the philosophers must be different. That is the difference. Lord Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, Lord Jesus Christ was Kṛṣṇa incarnation, but they were preaching to a different type of people. Therefore you'll find difference of Lord Jesus Christ teaching, Buddha's teaching, Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa's teaching also there, which is already Buddha's teaching. But more than that, because the persons amongst whom He was teaching, they were far, far elevated than the thieves and the rogues. That is the difference. Just like I am pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, I am doing so many things which my . . . sometimes my Godbrothers, out of envious, criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, they'll simply criticize, "How he is acting." Find out some fault. Just like Lord Buddha was criticized by the Vedic brahmins , "Oh, you are stopping animal sacrifice? *It is already in the Vedas . Because it is sacrifice, the animal is also sacrificed, so how you can stop animal sacrifice?" But Lord Buddha, nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam (Daśāvatāra-stotra 9). Śruti-jātam . In the Vedas there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, but he began to deride. So his business was to deride the Vedic principles, that "I don't care for these Vedas ." Therefore Buddha religion was not accepted in India. He criticized. He criticized the Vedic principles. In the Vedic principles there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, and he criticized, "This is not good. Don't do this." Therefore it is criticism. Vedic injunction should be accepted as it is. You cannot criticize. Then there is no Vedic authority. So therefore he defied Vedic authorities. As such he was not accepted, strictly followers of the *Vedas* . But he has got a different purpose. *The ordinary man cannot understand. But one who is devotee, he knows that why he has done this. Therefore they offer their obeisances, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . A devotee does not accept the philosophy of Buddha but accepts him as incarnation of Lord Kṛṣṇa and offers obeisances. This is our position. We offer obeisances to Lord Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . This is our study of knowledge. (pause) Śyāmasundara: What class of men did Lord Caitanya teach among? Prabhupāda: Those who accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Śyāmasundara: Preached among the devotees. *Prabhupāda: His preaching begins from surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Kṛṣṇa upadeśa is that Kṛṣṇa is asking everyone to surrender unto Him. So one who has surrendered unto Kṛṣṇa, he can understand Lord Caitanya's teaching. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). He begins His teachings from the point when one accepts that "I am the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śyāmasundara: This chanting process is directed to everyone, or just those who . . . Prabhupāda: No, everyone. By chanting he'll come to this point. When his heart will be cleansed, then he will come to this point to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We initiate a person, not that he is already on that standard, but we are educated him . . . educating him by the process to come to that standard. Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyāsa ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyāsa initiation? It doesn't necessarily mean he's a controller of senses, is that right? Gradually he may rise up to the standard Prabhupāda: Yes. No. A sannyāsī is already qualified. Then we are . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsa . The first beginning is chanting. If he follows the regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, that is his qualification. And by that process, he'll come to the point of full surrender. And then we give him the second initiation. And when he's actually engaged in the service of the Lord heart and soul, then we give him sannyāsa . Śyāmasundara: Do you have any more questions? Martin: No, no. You've more than filled my cup. Prabhupāda: What is that? Martin: You have filled my cup. More than filled. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) Śyāmasundara: I have one question I wanted to ask you. In Hawaii you said that the ocean was necessary in order to make the rain fall on the land, as a reservoir for fresh water, and that the salt was there to preserve the water from becoming bad. Prabhupāda: So? Śyāmasundara: So such huge body of water is required? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The oceans cover how much of the earth? *Martin: Three*-fifths. *Śyāmasundara: Three*-fifths of the earth's surface is ocean. So that much is required to water two-fifths land? Prabhupāda: No. The ocean is gradually . . . the water is required. Water is required. In our India, if somebody spends extravagantly, so it is compared with water: "Oh, you are spending like water." (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 4, 1972, Mexico (conversation with Martin, a Marine Biologist) Prabhupāda: Marine biologist. How many forms of fishes are there within the ocean? I know. I know. (laughter) Martin: That is why I'm here. *Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousands of different forms of aquatics. Nine hundred thousands. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāni (Padma Purāṇa). Jalajā means species of living beings born in the water. They are nine hundred thousand. How many you have got experience in your biology? Martin: I studied one. Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: I studied one. Prabhupāda: One only? Martin: One. (laughs) I, I concentrated on one. I learned of some of the . . . (indistinct) . . . (sound of thunder), maybe a thousand. Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousand. Exact number. (aside) Bring that socket. Pradyumna: Oh, this? *Śyāmasundara: That two*-way. It's on top of the desk. *Prabhupāda: Jalajā nava*-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . And two millions of trees and plants, botany, botanical. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati , kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā. Insects, there are eleven hundred thousands forms. Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā . Then, pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam . From insect, they become flies and birds. Pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam , one million. Then from birds, the beasts come, four-legged, triṁśal-lakṣāṇi : three million species of beasts. *Then from beasts, the human form comes—either from monkey or from lion or from cows. Out of these three . . . sattva*-guṇa , rajo-guṇa , tamo-guṇa . Those who are coming through rajo-guṇa , their last birth before human form of birth is lion. And those who are coming in the form ignorance, Darwin's father-in-law, (laughs) monkey, and ignorance. And those who are coming in goodness, their last form of birth is cow. So this is our scientific information from the *Vedas* . We haven't got to make a research. Everything is there. That is Vedic knowledge. They have got already everything written there. The astronomy, everything is written there, simply you have to calculate. Astrology, we say simply mathematical calculation: if the moon is in this position and the other stars is in this position, then the effect will be like this and the result will be like this. Like that. So you haven't got to make search or research. It is already there. Similarly, this Darwin's theory is there in two lines: Asati , asati means eighty; *catura means four. Eighty and four lakṣāṇi , lakhs , 100,000. Eighty*-four hundred thousand, that means 8,400,000. Aśītiṁ caturāṁs caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu . Jīva means living entity; *jāti means species. Jīva*-jātiṣu. Brahmadbhiḥ : the living entity is wandering, or transmigrating, from aquatics to trees, plants, then insect, then birds, then beasts. In this way, the last is human form of life. Brahmadbhiḥ . Brahmadbhiḥ , wandering. Puruṣair prāptaṁ , last he is getting mānuṣaṁ jiva . . . janma-paryāyāt , by the evolution of birth. Now this form is for understanding Govinda, God. The other forms, they cannot. So if in this form the living entity does not contact Govinda . . . contacting Govinda means surrendering unto Govinda. As Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate ( BG 7.19). So after many, many, many millions of births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That is our program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Martin: So there's something higher than human form? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The demigods, deva , deva*-tiryaṅ-narādiṣu (SB 1.2.34). Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings. Martin: Primitive cavemen? Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: Primitive cavemen? Prabhupāda: No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts. Other than. Martin: Oh, I see. (sound of thunder) Prabhupāda: But this human form of life is better than demigods' life, because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods." Is it not? Martin: The Indians thought. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Because they were better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then you get chunks. *That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in*-charge of that department is a demigod. Creation, Brahmā; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Śiva. Martin: How is the human life better than that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: How is human life better than the demigod? *Prabhupāda: Better than in this way, that just like here also in this mat . . . on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're proud, puffed*-up for material opulence: "Uh. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us enjoy, drink." *That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle*-class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very higher standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget. Not forget; they are servant. Just like government servant does not mean a devotee. So they are devotee, officially devotee. *They, they offer their obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. Śiva*-viriñci-nutam (SB 11.5.33), worship by Lord Śiva or Lord Brahmā, but their devotion is conditional because they're posted in such high post, so they may remain in their post. In this way, exchange. But in the human society you'll find devotees, there is no question of exchange; it is simply love. (sound of thunder) Martin: These demigods are what we call angels? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So how does science fit in with all of this? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Let him speak. Martin: This is why I'm here. I know science . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? So he can . . . Martin: I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling. Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: It's just the empty one half of the world. Prabhupāda: Scientist business is he can become a great devotee. Just like: (aside) You sit down. Why you don't sit down, like that. *Yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. Idam hi puṁsa , sviṣṭasya . . . tapa . . . sūktasya tapasaḥ . If you are scientist, scientist means you are learned, learned scholar. You know; you've heard from the books so many things. So your duty will be that whatever you have learned, you try to explain all these scientific research work as qualification of the Supreme Lord. Any scientific law, just like law of gravity . . . (aside) You are following? Devotee: Si , si . *Prabhupāda: Law of gravity . . . the big, big planets are floating in the air. Now you can explain how it is floating. The hint is already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that He enters. Viṣṭabhyā idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42), dharayani aham ojasam that, "I enter into this universe, and by My prowess they are floating." These hints are there. Now you are a scientist; if you are actually devotee, then you try to explain from your scientific explanation that this floating is possible because God has entered within it. That is your duty. And because you're scientist, your explanation from the scientific point of view, how God has entered, how He is acting, that will be very well received by the public. So that will be great service. Actually that is the fact. It is already stated there that, "I enter." We can understand. Yes. We believe. I'll explain. Just like that balloon. What is that gas? Hydrogen gas? Martin: Helium. Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: Helium gas. Prabhupāda: Helium gas. So helium gas has entered within the balloon, and it is floating. (laughter) So if the helium gas can float, cannot God float? If helium gas has so much power, the God is less than helium gas or He is more than helium gas? So what is the difficulty to understand? God says: "I enter." So similarly, the helium gas enters and it makes possible that it floats. So where is the difficulty to understand? I see in my eyes. So He can become big helium gas. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): "I am the taste of the water." Water is important. We are drinking water for the taste. That taste is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, if you explain this law of gravitation which we have discovered is Kṛṣṇa, prove it by your scientific knowledge, that will be your service. Actually that is the fact. That is the fact. But you have to explain, just like I have given you this example. This is scientific. As you can float a balloon by creating helium gas, so there must be some gas like that; Kṛṣṇa enters into each and every planet or universe and it floats, that's all. They, not only the planets are floating, the universes are also floating. So you accept this theory or not? If not, clearly explain. Martin: I, I, I cannot reject it. Prabhupāda: That's . . . Martin: Because you know more about it than I do. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Martin: You are obviously a wise man. *Prabhupāda: That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ (BG 4.34). Those who are tattva-darśiḥ , those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them—that is direction in the Bhagavad-gītā —not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, tattva-darśiḥ . Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender, then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient. *Just I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can . . . if you give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take . . . drink water, because there is peculiar taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst*-quenching taste is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). *There is no need of seeing Kṛṣṇa. You can perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . You can argue, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I do not see Kṛṣṇa. How can I . . ." Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water, you know that taste is Myself." So you can see or perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa's giving hints, "You worship Me like that." And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye to eye, but He can be perceived, anubhavānanda . What is that word? Parasya . . .? Pradyumna: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ . Devotee: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Parasyānubhavātmanam. Anubhavātmanaḥ . So at the present moment we can understand God by anubhava : "Here is God." The hint is given God . . . by God that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya , that "I am the taste of water." You cannot create this taste. You can make water, hydrogen*-oxygen mixing, but you cannot create the taste so that that water may be taken. Is it possible? Martin: It is possible to make water, and I rely on you to say that it is not possible to make the taste. Prabhupāda: That . . . just like from perspiration we are also creating water, but nobody is going to drink that water. Nobody is coming to lick my body, "Here is water." (laughter) That is not possible. Śyāmasundara: Even if they mix hydrogen and oxygen and get water, still, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the chemical comes? Such vast seawater, so where you got so much chemical? Then the next question, that "Who supplies the chemicals?" Martin: I've been there before. They all come down the same . . . they all come to the same place. You said that it is possible to see God eye to eye. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Martin: How can this be done? Prabhupāda: You have to be qualified. Martin: How can you be qualified? *Prabhupāda: This is the process going on in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You become devotee, you follow the rules and regulations, the prescribed method, you'll see God. You'll see constantly, twenty*-four hours. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti , premāñjana cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). If you have developed such devotion and love for God, then you will see always God. Just like if you have got a child whom you very much love, you'll see the child always in front of you. Always. It is due to love. So similarly, you have to develop love for Kṛṣṇa and you'll see Him. He can be seen by love, not by your method. He is not under any method, but He is under love. So you have to develop love, and then you'll see. (aside) There is no flavor? Is it any flavor? Martin: It's very faint. Śyāmasundara: Mexican incense. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Christian incense. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so all science of God is described in Bhagavad*-gītā. Śyāmasundara: This morning you said that Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist because . . . because He is a scientist, then we can have our science, as a reflection Prabhupāda: Yes. The, ah . . . do you accept it He is the original scientist? Martin: I can accept the fact that Kṛṣṇa, being God, created everything which science studies now. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. That is the fact. That is the fact. So despite my becoming a scientist, I am a subordinate scientist. Our . . . my scientific research is going on under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Because the experiment which you are making in the laboratory, the ingredients, they are produced from Kṛṣṇa. The mind with which you are working, that is produced by Kṛṣṇa. And the direction, you are receiving from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you prepare something, that is Kṛṣṇa's production. Kṛṣṇa is indirect cause and you are direct cause. (aside to Śyāmasundara) The other day while coming on the plane you told me that they are trying to make copy of the brain of . . . Śyāmasundara: Einstein. Prabhupāda: Einstein. So still, if you can copy, even if you can copy, you are not the original scientist, because that brain of Einstein is already created. So original creation is God's. So you can imitate. So you are imitator scientist. (break) Is it not? Martin: It's true. Prabhupāda: Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a Xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men. If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind the professor has died. We create another person like." That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all, it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy, a Xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you have the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain. That you haven't got. You are trying to take Xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their . . . the shape is made after the bird. The original shape, bird, is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that? That is not possible. Then what is your credit? Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest. Śyāmasundara: And our big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane. Prabhupāda: That's it. You cannot create a male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Third millions. And again third millions, another million, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies. He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. Sa asṛjata , sa īkṣata . These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic, one television button you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening you see. So if it is materially possible . . . it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain. So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, param . Therefore He is called parampuruṣa , parameśvara . Parama means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Kṛṣṇa. But His brain is different. Just like you are scientist, your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which has no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than his—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone's and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God. How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best strength. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is God. Martin: But how can I know with my inferior brain . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: . . . who has the best brain? Prabhupāda: That you can understand. Just like you are a scientist brain. You can do something which I cannot do. That much I must accept that you have got better brain. What is the difficulty? Martin: But . . . how can I know? Prabhupāda: You can know directly that, "He is doing better than me." What is the difficulty? I can see . . . just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us." Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act. So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me." Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding. *And the Vedas also advises that, "Go to a better man," śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), "one who heard better, and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and brahma . . . as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa," brahma-niṣṭham . These are the qualification of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things have to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master. Martin: But there are many spiritual masters in the world. Each says what you say. *Prabhupāda: Each says, but you have to judge. Just like when you go to purchase a two*-shillings'-worth goods, you go to different stores. Everyone says: "Oh, my thing is very nice." But you have to judge which one is best. That depends on you. If you are a fool, then somebody will cheat you. And if you are not a fool, then you will know . . . just like these rascals, they call themselves God. Such a fools can cheat another fool only. But one who knows what is God, he'll not accept it. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, he'll not accept him as God. He'll immediately compare, "What you have done like Kṛṣṇa or better than Kṛṣṇa then I shall accept you God? We have already our God, Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove that you are better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." That he cannot, so why I shall accept him God? Why shall I accept him spiritual master? That depends on your intelligence. If you are less intelligent, then you'll be cheated by this false God. So everyone has got intelligence, individuality, power of understanding, so you should try to use them, and then you can understand. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) I'd like to ask what do the scientists explain is the origin of life. Do they have any explanation how life is caused? Martin: Oh, the scientists concern themselves with the process, not the reason. They, right now, scientists are spending a tremendous amount of time duplicating this process, trying to be able to produce life in the laboratory. This now, they are saying that thus they will be able to say that this is how life started in the beginning of the world. It does not take . . . scientists don't concern themselves with why life started, just how, what method. Śyāmasundara: What do they think, how it started? Martin: Oh, they think life started by the effect of the atmosphere . . . Prabhupāda: Then the atmosphere is the cause. Now the next question is, "Who created the atmosphere?" (break) Martin: This doesn't . . . this is why I feel science . . . I do not feel . . . Prabhupāda: They have not found out the ultimate cause. They take a process which is going in the middle way, therefore their science is imperfect. But our science is perfect. We have found out the ultimate cause. The cause of all causes. Therefore our science is perfect. We have found out the cause of all causes. But the material scientists, they simply can look to the process, how it is working. Just like a child sees the machine, how it is working, but he cannot know who has produced the machine. Therefore we see the child scientist. (laughter) Not better scientist. Śyāmasundara: What is the definition of science? Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Perfect knowledge. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Martin: I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know what is the meaning of science? Martin: No, I don't. Prabhupāda: Then why you call science? How do you call, "This is scientific"? Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen. *Prabhupāda: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ (BG 7.10). The seed of this rose tree is Kṛṣṇa. All kinds of seeds are Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, from one seed you'll find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. Another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or varieties of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Kṛṣṇa. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory a seed of . . . what is that tree? Śyāmasundara: Banyan? Banyan tree? Prabhupāda: Banyan tree. A small seed, very small. It contains the potency of a big banyan tree. You cannot create such seed. You create something, just like you are creating vitamin tablets. You are proposing that "No more eating required. You simply take some vitamin tablet." Is it not? Similarly, you create some tablet and sow it in the earth and big banyan tree comes. Then I will accept you. (laughter) Martin: You, you say that . . . (break) . . . who created this knowledge that this flower and the banyan tree is Kṛṣṇa. What place in the divine scheme do such great names as Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad have? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha, we accept him as incarnation, as expansion of Kṛṣṇa. He's Kṛṣṇa working as Buddha, Lord Buddha. Keśava dhṛta buddha śarīra (Daśāvatāra*-stotra 9). He has accepted body of Buddha. That is our conception of Lord Buddha. Martin: And Jesus Christ and Muhammad? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Martin: They were all the reincarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: I see. *Prabhupāda: Yad yad vibhūti . . . any, anyone who is showing some extraordinary power, he is supposed to be incarnation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ mama tejo 'ṁśa*-sambhavam (BG 10.41). The brilliant energy. He represents the brilliant energy of Kṛṣṇa. And the energy is not different from the energetic. (aside) Hmm. What is that? Śyāmasundara: I just said that this is a very good sound track of your speaking—this chanting and rainfall (there is a kīrtana in the background). Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: Can a true devotee come face to face with God through the teachings of Buddha, the teachings of Christ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Teachings of Christ, teachings of Buddha, they were meant for a particular type of men. Generally it is meant for everyone, but especially for a particular type of men. Just like Lord Buddha, he preached ahiṁsā . They were a particular type of men. Lord Jesus Christ also preached a particular type of men. "Thou shall not kill," that means they were killing. Is it not? If I say: "Thou shall not steal," that means you are thief, you are stealing. So a kind of preaching amongst the thieves and a kind of teaching among the philosophers must be different. That is the difference. Lord Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, Lord Jesus Christ was Kṛṣṇa incarnation, but they were preaching to a different type of people. Therefore you'll find difference of Lord Jesus Christ teaching, Buddha's teaching, Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa's teaching also there, which is already Buddha's teaching. But more than that, because the persons amongst whom He was teaching, they were far, far elevated than the thieves and the rogues. That is the difference. Just like I am pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, I am doing so many things which my . . . sometimes my Godbrothers, out of envious, criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, they'll simply criticize, "How he is acting." Find out some fault. Just like Lord Buddha was criticized by the Vedic brahmins , "Oh, you are stopping animal sacrifice? *It is already in the Vedas . Because it is sacrifice, the animal is also sacrificed, so how you can stop animal sacrifice?" But Lord Buddha, nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam (Daśāvatāra-stotra 9). Śruti-jātam . In the Vedas there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, but he began to deride. So his business was to deride the Vedic principles, that "I don't care for these Vedas ." Therefore Buddha religion was not accepted in India. He criticized. He criticized the Vedic principles. In the Vedic principles there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, and he criticized, "This is not good. Don't do this." Therefore it is criticism. Vedic injunction should be accepted as it is. You cannot criticize. Then there is no Vedic authority. So therefore he defied Vedic authorities. As such he was not accepted, strictly followers of the *Vedas* . But he has got a different purpose. *The ordinary man cannot understand. But one who is devotee, he knows that why he has done this. Therefore they offer their obeisances, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . A devotee does not accept the philosophy of Buddha but accepts him as incarnation of Lord Kṛṣṇa and offers obeisances. This is our position. We offer obeisances to Lord Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . This is our study of knowledge. (pause) Śyāmasundara: What class of men did Lord Caitanya teach among? Prabhupāda: Those who accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Śyāmasundara: Preached among the devotees. *Prabhupāda: His preaching begins from surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Kṛṣṇa upadeśa is that Kṛṣṇa is asking everyone to surrender unto Him. So one who has surrendered unto Kṛṣṇa, he can understand Lord Caitanya's teaching. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). He begins His teachings from the point when one accepts that "I am the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śyāmasundara: This chanting process is directed to everyone, or just those who . . . Prabhupāda: No, everyone. By chanting he'll come to this point. When his heart will be cleansed, then he will come to this point to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We initiate a person, not that he is already on that standard, but we are educated him . . . educating him by the process to come to that standard. Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyāsa ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyāsa initiation? It doesn't necessarily mean he's a controller of senses, is that right? Gradually he may rise up to the standard Prabhupāda: Yes. No. A sannyāsī is already qualified. Then we are . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsa . The first beginning is chanting. If he follows the regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, that is his qualification. And by that process, he'll come to the point of full surrender. And then we give him the second initiation. And when he's actually engaged in the service of the Lord heart and soul, then we give him sannyāsa . Śyāmasundara: Do you have any more questions? Martin: No, no. You've more than filled my cup. Prabhupāda: What is that? Martin: You have filled my cup. More than filled. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) Śyāmasundara: I have one question I wanted to ask you. In Hawaii you said that the ocean was necessary in order to make the rain fall on the land, as a reservoir for fresh water, and that the salt was there to preserve the water from becoming bad. Prabhupāda: So? Śyāmasundara: So such huge body of water is required? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The oceans cover how much of the earth? *Martin: Three*-fifths. *Śyāmasundara: Three*-fifths of the earth's surface is ocean. So that much is required to water two-fifths land? Prabhupāda: No. The ocean is gradually . . . the water is required. Water is required. In our India, if somebody spends extravagantly, so it is compared with water: "Oh, you are spending like water." (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 14, 1972, Los Angeles (conversation with musician John Fahey) John Fahey: I think I made twelve in total. Twelve that I know of. Two that aren't out. Prabhupāda: What you play? Marilyn: I just, er, um, I cook. Prabhupāda: Hmm. John Fahey: Oh, I saw you play the dulcimer. Marilyn: I play the dulcimer. Prabhupāda: What's that? Marilyn: Dulcimer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dulcimer. Karandhara: What's that? Marilyn: It has strings, four strings, and it's shaped like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, just like tambura. Karandhara: Tambura. Prabhupāda: Like tambura. Devotee: It's more like a vina . . . (indistinct) (break) Prabhupāda: So you understand our philosophy? John Fahey: I don't know if I understand it, I'm reading it. Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is your philosophy? John Fahey: I don't know. Prabhupāda: No philosophy of life? Why you are living? John Fahey: I don't know. I was just born. Prabhupāda: Born—everyone is born. Cats and dogs are also born. They also live, they also die. So if we live like that—"I was born. Let me live somewhere, and die"—then what is the difference? John Fahey: None. Prabhupāda: No. There is difference. That one should understand. There is difference. A man should not live like cats and dogs, because he has got a mission. John Fahey: Mission? Prabhupāda: Mission. That mission is God realization. Cats and dogs cannot do it; human being can do it. Therefore in any civilized human society, there is a type of religion. May be Christianism or Muhammadanism or Hinduism or Buddhism—there is. But you cannot find this religious system in the animals life. That is the difference. If you give up this religious consciousness, or God consciousness, then we are as good as cats and dogs. That is the only difference. You go anywhere, any part of the world, civilized human being, they have got a system, which you may call religion or philosophy, to understand God. That prerogative is specially for the human being. But if you do not care for that special prerogative, then you are as good as animal. What is the difference between animal and human being unless he has got some method of understanding God? The animal eats, and we also eat. The animals sleep, we also sleep. The animal have sex intercourse; we have got also. They are also afraid of something; we are also afraid of something. Then where is the difference? John Fahey: About God, you know. Prabhupāda: But that is the difference. A human being can understand what is God, what is my relationship with God, what is my duty in that relationship, what is my aim of life, where I shall go after death, wherefrom I have come. These questions must be there in human form of life; otherwise we are still in the animal kingdom. Marilyn: Do the animals have no consciousness of God? Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: Do the animals have no consciousness of God? Prabhupāda: They have no God consciousness. They do not know what is God. Marilyn: Somehow I always thought that . . . Prabhupāda: Just like children, they do not know what is government. They are satisfied with their eating, sleeping, playing, that's life. They have no other concern. But when one is grown up, he knows what is government. He has to abide by the state laws. Now you are grown up, if you violate the law "Keep to the right," you'll be criminal. But a child, if he violates the law, animal violates the law, he has no . . . But if a adult person violates the law, he'll be criminal. You cannot say: "I'm free." No. Law will not excuse. But if a children commits something . . . suppose you, if you take something from my table, it is for you criminal. But if a child takes something from my table, it is not criminal. In your country especially, if you enter my house or room without permission, that is criminal. Is it not? Trespass. John Fahey: Yes. Prabhupāda: But a child or dog enters, that is not trespassing. A child or a dog or cat, they enter without any permission. Therefore this animal kingdom and the human being, there is difference. By the evolutionary process we come to the human form of life. When we were animals . . . we were animals also. You are passing through 8,400,000 forms of life—from aquatic to plants, trees, then insect, then flies, then birds, then beast, then uncivilized human being, jungle, then come to this Āryan form, civilized form of human being. So it is obtained after many, many transmigration. And if we do not understand the responsibility . . . just like in an establishment one man, he is promoted. His first joins as a doorkeeper, then he is gradually he is given promotion; he may come to the post of the manager. Just like in bank it so happens, they must go through all the different stages of service. So when he becomes manager, if he does not know the responsibility, then again he comes to the lowest position; again he has to strive for going up. So if we forget our responsibility and become like cats and dogs, then we are going back again to take the forms of cats and dogs. This is a great science. Nobody is very serious to understand this science, but the science is there. We are . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people about this science. They're neglecting this science. That means they are violating the prerogative of the chance, of the facility of human being. After all, you have to die; you cannot check it. But if you die like cats and dogs, then our life is spoiled, and if you die like a human being, then our life is perfect. Everyone will die, but one who dies like a human being by understanding what is God, what is my relationship with Him, how I have acted in relationship with God, then our life is perfect. (pause) So, you like this philosophy or not? Marilyn: Somehow I always thought that people should be more like animals, because animals only, ah, only take what they need . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you become like animal? Marilyn: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Why you are dressing yourself? Why don't you wander like animal, naked? Marilyn: No. But animals still have their own communities, and they only take what they need to eat, and they only eat when they need to eat. Prabhupāda: Now the philosophy is how to become animal? This is the philosophy nowadays? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Today's people sometimes, Prabhupāda, she's thinking, are worse than animal, because . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. If their philosophy is to become animal then they must be worse than animal, because actually they are not animal. Marilyn: That's what I mean. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Prabhupāda: If the ultimate goal is to become animal, so that is artificial. So a human being desiring to become animal must be worse than animal, because animal has got some . . . Marilyn: Has got some . . . Prabhupāda: . . . routine work. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because, ah . . . Prabhupāda: Just like cats and dogs: they have sexual desire in certain period of the year. But a man, although he is trying to be animal, but he has no restriction. He has sexual desire anytime. Therefore he is worse than animal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Man eats and kills everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The animals kill just their own quota. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So therefore, if a man wants to become animal, he becomes worse than animal. A tiger, a tiger eats meat, and he has got equipments in his body—it is called, nails, teeth—immediately pounce upon any animal and kills and eat. But a man cannot do that; but his teeth is different, he has no nails; therefore he has to kill animal in different way, by slaughterhouse. So he is worse than animal. You kill one animal for your eating purpose, this is one thing, but if you keep slaughterhouse for business, again more dangerous. Therefore for a human being to try to become animal is worse than the animals and because . . . just like you are now grown up. If you imitate that, "I want to become child, so I enter anyone's house," the law will not allow you. And if you say that, "My philosophy is to become a child, therefore I enter this man's house," the law will say: "All right, first of all you'll be punished." (laughter) You cannot say that. Because you are grown up, you cannot act as a child. Similarly, because you are human being, if you act as an animal you'll be responsible for your act, and you'll be punished if you do something wrong. You cannot say: "No, I have made my philosophy to become a child." That may be your personal philosophy, but law will not allow you. Ignorance is no excuse. (long pause) It has become a philosophy now to become like animal. Karandhara: They say "Back to nature." Prabhupāda: "Back to nature" means first of all your nature is different from others' nature. An animal can lie down anywhere on the street. Can you do that? So how can man go back to nature like that? A dog lying down on the street . . . here, of course, every dog has got a master. In India there are many dogs, though some got master, so they are eating anywhere or lying. But you cannot do so. If you lie down on the street at night, perhaps you'll be arrested. Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Neither you can do so. You must have an apartment. Maybe less costly apartment, but because you are human being you must have an apartment. So how you can go to the nature? Even the ṛṣis used to live in the jungle, they had a cottage, not like animals. They had hermitage cottage to live. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī's picture. You have seen? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they left their luxuriant residence as ministers. But when they went to Vṛndāvana, they had a cottage. Karandhara: I think the impulse is more or less a reaction to their alienation for material life. They feel so alienated from artificial material life that they think maybe, that simply more . . . they think animalistic would be more desirable. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The inclination may be right, but the spiritual education is lacking. They don't have the teacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Education. Prabhupāda: That is the defect of modern education. *John Fahey: Well, they go to college, and so this is where the idea started. It got bigger and bigger and bigger, and now it's out of control. It's terrible. It's all*-pervasive, to live like animal. I suppose I live like that, animal. I don't particularly want too or like too. I don't kill animals. Karandhara: Vegetarian? John Fahey: Now, yeah. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Karandhara: Vegetarian. Prabhupāda: Well, vegetarians are not animal. (laughter) In India, you'll still you'll find, ninety percent of the population, they're vegetarians, strictly. Always been. They're quite healthy; they're working. Rather vegetarians are human being. Because vegetable, that food is meant for human beings. That is natural. For a human being to become nonvegetarian is unnatural. And to become vegetarian, that is natural. So if you give up your natural tendencies as human being and take artificially the way of life of an animal, that is not natural. In human society the . . . however uncivilized human being, there is the process of covering this private part. Even in jungles they cover with the bark of tree. Why? That is the human. But animal in the jungle, they do not cover. They can go. The same jungle—I don't speak of the city life—even in jungle life, the aborigines, still they have got some cover. Now they are becoming naked, natural life, nudism. Huh? That John Lennon, he has a picture in his sitting room, standing naked. This is madness. That is not natural life. If you go against your natural life, that is madness. Just like a madman walks on the street naked. So these are . . . so our mission is to advise everyone, educate everyone to become exactly like human being. That you can become by understanding God. The books, educational institutions, are meant for human being, for knowledge. All the books, all over the world, they are not meant for cats and dogs. They are meant for human being. The schools, colleges, universities, institutions, they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. So we must take advantage of these books, institution, knowledge, teachers. That is real human life. Just like your . . . guitar? Karandhara: Guitar, yes. Prabhupāda: That is for human being, art, not for the cats and dogs. So how you can go to animal life? That is not possible. (break) How do you know your father? John Fahey: Well, I met him. Prabhupāda: Huh? John Fahey: I met him. I grew up with him. Prabhupāda: How do you know your real father? Karandhara: How do you know he is your father, who you met? John Fahey: He just told me. Prabhupāda: Who told you? John Fahey: My father. Prabhupāda: Somebody told you. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The mother told you, or somebody told you. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And you accepted it. Similarly, about God you have to take information from somebody who is authorized to tell you about God. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Everything is known, can be known, from authorized source of knowledge. A child does not know what is this. He asks father, "Father, what is this?" The father explains, "My dear boy, this is Dictaphone. When I speak, it records." Child knowledge, he sees. That is the way of knowledge. If you do not know God, you must approach a person who knows God. Then you know. There is no difficulty. John Fahey: But I went to church, and I still don't know. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He went to church and he could not find out. Prabhupāda: That may be. John Fahey: They told, but I didn't feel it. Prabhupāda: That may be, but you may be cheated, that is another thing. Suppose you ask something from somebody. If he cheats you, that may be your mistake or his, but the process is the same; you cannot avoid that. If you want to know God, then you have to go to a person who knows God. You might have gone to a person who does not know. That is another thing. You went to a wrong person. But actually if you want to know God, you must have to go to a person who knows God. That you have to search out. That requires intelligence. But you cannot give up the idea. Because you have been cheated, "I could not get information," therefore you cannot give up that business. You have to find out somebody else. But because you say: "I have been cheated. I could not get the right information. I stop this business," that is not allowed. You must. Therefore, according to Vedic order it is said, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must (go) to a person to understand that science of God. You must go to a guru or a man who knows. Guru means who is more intelligent. Guru means weight, heavy, heavier, that heavier in knowledge. So you have to find out a person who is heavier than you, not ordinary. Must go. Not that may go or may not go. No. Must go. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. *And what is the symptom of guru ? Śrotriyaṁ . Means he has heard about God from his superior, his guru . Śrotriyaṁ . And how can I know that he has heard from his superior about God? He might say that "Yes, I have heard," but what symptoms I shall . . .? Brahmā*-niṣṭham. Brahmā-niṣṭham means that he has become a complete devotee of God, result. Just like a man, a physician. A physician means he has attended the medical college, passed the examination, and the result is that he's practicing as a physician. Not only passing will do, but he's actually passing and he's actually practicing and he's curing patients. Therefore you find out a physician, "Here is a physician." It is not difficult. *So guru means one who knows God. How can I know that he knows God? Because he's making others to know God. Where is the difficulty? But if you go to a person who does not know God, that is your fault. If you go to a physician who is not actually physician, a store*-keeper, then that is your fault. You must have the intelligence who is a physician. *That much intelligence you have got. You see a signboard, Dr. Such*-and-such M.D., medical practitioners. Now you go there and you see there are patients waiting for him, for his treatment, he's giving medicine and they are being cured. Then where is the difficulty to find out a physician? There is no difficulty. So if one is serious to be cured of the disease, he must go to a physician. If he does not go to the physician, how he can be cured? Just like you have learned the guitar playing. Do you learn it alone or learn it from somebody? John Fahey: Mainly by myself. Prabhupāda: Huh? John Fahey: Mainly alone. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have followed somebody at least, standard. John Fahey: Oh, yeah, people I heard. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the way of learning what is God. The main business is that one must know God. It is not that because I approach some person and he did not know, he could not give me the right knowledge of God, then I give up this idea of knowing God. No. That will not . . . that is not good for human life. Then you remain animal. I might have been cheated or I might not have approached the proper person, but that does not mean I can stop that idea. That is not . . . In another place it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One who is actually inquisitive to understand the highest benefit of life, he must approach a guru . Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. Jijñāsu means inquisitive. Śreya —the highest benefit of life. Uttamam —highest. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ (SB 11.3.21). What is the qualification of such a person? Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ : he is completely well versed in the transcendental science. And what is the symptom that he is well versed? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam : he has taken shelter of Brahma or Kṛṣṇa or God, upāsanā , finishing all material desires. These two things: he is a devotee, but he has no more material desires. He must be well versed in the science, he must be a devotee, and he has no attraction for material things. These three things if you can find, then he's perfect guru . Everything is there in the śāstra ; and therefore books should be consulted. If you have no books, those who are discussing books, you should approach them, you should hear them. Just like we are holding class morning, evening. People can come here, take advantage what we are speaking, then gradually they can understand. But we cannot avoid that. That is not good idea. If I say that, "I went to church. I was not very much enlightened; therefore I give up this attempt," oh, that is not good. John Fahey: Oh, I didn't give it up. I'm still looking. Karandhara: He comes for ārātrika . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Karandhara: He takes prasāda . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Very good. You also come? Marilyn: I just got here a little while ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: I just got here a few days ago, but I've been twice. We'll be here Friday or Saturday or so. I chanted on the street. Prabhupāda: You chanted? Marilyn: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Saṅkīrtana party. Prabhupāda: Very good. John Fahey: We want to get some cymbals. Cymbals. Marilyn: Cymbals. We sang Hare Kṛṣṇa on the airplane. Prabhupāda: You're chanting on the airplane? John Fahey: Yeah, it was fun. Prabhupāda: You can chant anywhere. There is no restriction. There is no special rules and regulation. You can chant anywhere convenient. Whenever you find it convenient, you can chant. John Fahey: We were singing Hare Kṛṣṇa, so . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Go on singing. (laughter) Yes. Go on singing, and everything will be revealed within yourself, it is so nice. Marilyn: It's a comforting feeling. Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: It's a comforting feeling just from the whole repetition. Prabhupāda: Yes. So go on chanting, then everything will be all right. John Fahey: Can we get some cymbals? Prabhupāda: Whenever you find opportunity, you come and join with us. John Fahey: Can we get some cymbals? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. John Fahey: I don't know where to get them. Prabhupāda: (aside) You don't have any cymbal for selling? Karandhara: Not at the moment. Prabhupāda: So, you can keep some stocked. Karandhara: Yes. We've been waiting for shipment. They haven't arrived. Prabhupāda: You can give him loan. He's anxious. You can give him this small one. You take this. John Fahey: Thank you. (sound of karatālas ) Prabhupāda: I'll show you how to do it. Like this. (loud playing of karatālas ) One, two, three; one, two, three. (showing how to play karatālas ) It is not difficult. You are musician. Just play on meter: one, two, three; one, two, three. John Fahey: Thank you. Prabhupāda: For everything you have to learn from a guru. (laughter) Even for how to play. (more laughing) John Fahey: Like that? Prabhupāda: Yes: one, two, three. (more playing of karatālas ) John Fahey: Boy, those are nice bells, I mean cymbals. (playing more) Oh, boy. Thank you. Prabhupāda: So sit down together whenever you find time, one, two, three, play, and Hare Kṛṣṇa chant. John Fahey: Okay. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Prabhupāda! John Fahey: Thank you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Thank you. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: What is your name? John Fahey: John Fahey. Prabhupāda: John. Karandhara: John. Prabhupāda: Your name? Marilyn: Marilyn. Prabhupāda: What is? Marilyn: Marilyn. Karandhara: Marilyn. (cut) (end) Conversation A -- June 14, 1972, Los Angeles (conversation with musician John Fahey) John Fahey: I think I made twelve in total. Twelve that I know of. Two that aren't out. Prabhupāda: What you play? Marilyn: I just, er, um, I cook. Prabhupāda: Hmm. John Fahey: Oh, I saw you play the dulcimer. Marilyn: I play the dulcimer. Prabhupāda: What's that? Marilyn: Dulcimer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dulcimer. Karandhara: What's that? Marilyn: It has strings, four strings, and it's shaped like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, just like tambura. Karandhara: Tambura. Prabhupāda: Like tambura. Devotee: It's more like a vina . . . (indistinct) (break) Prabhupāda: So you understand our philosophy? John Fahey: I don't know if I understand it, I'm reading it. Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is your philosophy? John Fahey: I don't know. Prabhupāda: No philosophy of life? Why you are living? John Fahey: I don't know. I was just born. Prabhupāda: Born—everyone is born. Cats and dogs are also born. They also live, they also die. So if we live like that—"I was born. Let me live somewhere, and die"—then what is the difference? John Fahey: None. Prabhupāda: No. There is difference. That one should understand. There is difference. A man should not live like cats and dogs, because he has got a mission. John Fahey: Mission? Prabhupāda: Mission. That mission is God realization. Cats and dogs cannot do it; human being can do it. Therefore in any civilized human society, there is a type of religion. May be Christianism or Muhammadanism or Hinduism or Buddhism—there is. But you cannot find this religious system in the animals life. That is the difference. If you give up this religious consciousness, or God consciousness, then we are as good as cats and dogs. That is the only difference. You go anywhere, any part of the world, civilized human being, they have got a system, which you may call religion or philosophy, to understand God. That prerogative is specially for the human being. But if you do not care for that special prerogative, then you are as good as animal. What is the difference between animal and human being unless he has got some method of understanding God? The animal eats, and we also eat. The animals sleep, we also sleep. The animal have sex intercourse; we have got also. They are also afraid of something; we are also afraid of something. Then where is the difference? John Fahey: About God, you know. Prabhupāda: But that is the difference. A human being can understand what is God, what is my relationship with God, what is my duty in that relationship, what is my aim of life, where I shall go after death, wherefrom I have come. These questions must be there in human form of life; otherwise we are still in the animal kingdom. Marilyn: Do the animals have no consciousness of God? Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: Do the animals have no consciousness of God? Prabhupāda: They have no God consciousness. They do not know what is God. Marilyn: Somehow I always thought that . . . Prabhupāda: Just like children, they do not know what is government. They are satisfied with their eating, sleeping, playing, that's life. They have no other concern. But when one is grown up, he knows what is government. He has to abide by the state laws. Now you are grown up, if you violate the law "Keep to the right," you'll be criminal. But a child, if he violates the law, animal violates the law, he has no . . . But if a adult person violates the law, he'll be criminal. You cannot say: "I'm free." No. Law will not excuse. But if a children commits something . . . suppose you, if you take something from my table, it is for you criminal. But if a child takes something from my table, it is not criminal. In your country especially, if you enter my house or room without permission, that is criminal. Is it not? Trespass. John Fahey: Yes. Prabhupāda: But a child or dog enters, that is not trespassing. A child or a dog or cat, they enter without any permission. Therefore this animal kingdom and the human being, there is difference. By the evolutionary process we come to the human form of life. When we were animals . . . we were animals also. You are passing through 8,400,000 forms of life—from aquatic to plants, trees, then insect, then flies, then birds, then beast, then uncivilized human being, jungle, then come to this Āryan form, civilized form of human being. So it is obtained after many, many transmigration. And if we do not understand the responsibility . . . just like in an establishment one man, he is promoted. His first joins as a doorkeeper, then he is gradually he is given promotion; he may come to the post of the manager. Just like in bank it so happens, they must go through all the different stages of service. So when he becomes manager, if he does not know the responsibility, then again he comes to the lowest position; again he has to strive for going up. So if we forget our responsibility and become like cats and dogs, then we are going back again to take the forms of cats and dogs. This is a great science. Nobody is very serious to understand this science, but the science is there. We are . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people about this science. They're neglecting this science. That means they are violating the prerogative of the chance, of the facility of human being. After all, you have to die; you cannot check it. But if you die like cats and dogs, then our life is spoiled, and if you die like a human being, then our life is perfect. Everyone will die, but one who dies like a human being by understanding what is God, what is my relationship with Him, how I have acted in relationship with God, then our life is perfect. (pause) So, you like this philosophy or not? Marilyn: Somehow I always thought that people should be more like animals, because animals only, ah, only take what they need . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you become like animal? Marilyn: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Why you are dressing yourself? Why don't you wander like animal, naked? Marilyn: No. But animals still have their own communities, and they only take what they need to eat, and they only eat when they need to eat. Prabhupāda: Now the philosophy is how to become animal? This is the philosophy nowadays? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Today's people sometimes, Prabhupāda, she's thinking, are worse than animal, because . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. If their philosophy is to become animal then they must be worse than animal, because actually they are not animal. Marilyn: That's what I mean. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Prabhupāda: If the ultimate goal is to become animal, so that is artificial. So a human being desiring to become animal must be worse than animal, because animal has got some . . . Marilyn: Has got some . . . Prabhupāda: . . . routine work. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because, ah . . . Prabhupāda: Just like cats and dogs: they have sexual desire in certain period of the year. But a man, although he is trying to be animal, but he has no restriction. He has sexual desire anytime. Therefore he is worse than animal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Man eats and kills everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The animals kill just their own quota. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So therefore, if a man wants to become animal, he becomes worse than animal. A tiger, a tiger eats meat, and he has got equipments in his body—it is called, nails, teeth—immediately pounce upon any animal and kills and eat. But a man cannot do that; but his teeth is different, he has no nails; therefore he has to kill animal in different way, by slaughterhouse. So he is worse than animal. You kill one animal for your eating purpose, this is one thing, but if you keep slaughterhouse for business, again more dangerous. Therefore for a human being to try to become animal is worse than the animals and because . . . just like you are now grown up. If you imitate that, "I want to become child, so I enter anyone's house," the law will not allow you. And if you say that, "My philosophy is to become a child, therefore I enter this man's house," the law will say: "All right, first of all you'll be punished." (laughter) You cannot say that. Because you are grown up, you cannot act as a child. Similarly, because you are human being, if you act as an animal you'll be responsible for your act, and you'll be punished if you do something wrong. You cannot say: "No, I have made my philosophy to become a child." That may be your personal philosophy, but law will not allow you. Ignorance is no excuse. (long pause) It has become a philosophy now to become like animal. Karandhara: They say "Back to nature." Prabhupāda: "Back to nature" means first of all your nature is different from others' nature. An animal can lie down anywhere on the street. Can you do that? So how can man go back to nature like that? A dog lying down on the street . . . here, of course, every dog has got a master. In India there are many dogs, though some got master, so they are eating anywhere or lying. But you cannot do so. If you lie down on the street at night, perhaps you'll be arrested. Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Neither you can do so. You must have an apartment. Maybe less costly apartment, but because you are human being you must have an apartment. So how you can go to the nature? Even the ṛṣis used to live in the jungle, they had a cottage, not like animals. They had hermitage cottage to live. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī's picture. You have seen? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they left their luxuriant residence as ministers. But when they went to Vṛndāvana, they had a cottage. Karandhara: I think the impulse is more or less a reaction to their alienation for material life. They feel so alienated from artificial material life that they think maybe, that simply more . . . they think animalistic would be more desirable. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The inclination may be right, but the spiritual education is lacking. They don't have the teacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Education. Prabhupāda: That is the defect of modern education. *John Fahey: Well, they go to college, and so this is where the idea started. It got bigger and bigger and bigger, and now it's out of control. It's terrible. It's all*-pervasive, to live like animal. I suppose I live like that, animal. I don't particularly want too or like too. I don't kill animals. Karandhara: Vegetarian? John Fahey: Now, yeah. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Karandhara: Vegetarian. Prabhupāda: Well, vegetarians are not animal. (laughter) In India, you'll still you'll find, ninety percent of the population, they're vegetarians, strictly. Always been. They're quite healthy; they're working. Rather vegetarians are human being. Because vegetable, that food is meant for human beings. That is natural. For a human being to become nonvegetarian is unnatural. And to become vegetarian, that is natural. So if you give up your natural tendencies as human being and take artificially the way of life of an animal, that is not natural. In human society the . . . however uncivilized human being, there is the process of covering this private part. Even in jungles they cover with the bark of tree. Why? That is the human. But animal in the jungle, they do not cover. They can go. The same jungle—I don't speak of the city life—even in jungle life, the aborigines, still they have got some cover. Now they are becoming naked, natural life, nudism. Huh? That John Lennon, he has a picture in his sitting room, standing naked. This is madness. That is not natural life. If you go against your natural life, that is madness. Just like a madman walks on the street naked. So these are . . . so our mission is to advise everyone, educate everyone to become exactly like human being. That you can become by understanding God. The books, educational institutions, are meant for human being, for knowledge. All the books, all over the world, they are not meant for cats and dogs. They are meant for human being. The schools, colleges, universities, institutions, they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. So we must take advantage of these books, institution, knowledge, teachers. That is real human life. Just like your . . . guitar? Karandhara: Guitar, yes. Prabhupāda: That is for human being, art, not for the cats and dogs. So how you can go to animal life? That is not possible. (break) How do you know your father? John Fahey: Well, I met him. Prabhupāda: Huh? John Fahey: I met him. I grew up with him. Prabhupāda: How do you know your real father? Karandhara: How do you know he is your father, who you met? John Fahey: He just told me. Prabhupāda: Who told you? John Fahey: My father. Prabhupāda: Somebody told you. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The mother told you, or somebody told you. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And you accepted it. Similarly, about God you have to take information from somebody who is authorized to tell you about God. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Everything is known, can be known, from authorized source of knowledge. A child does not know what is this. He asks father, "Father, what is this?" The father explains, "My dear boy, this is Dictaphone. When I speak, it records." Child knowledge, he sees. That is the way of knowledge. If you do not know God, you must approach a person who knows God. Then you know. There is no difficulty. John Fahey: But I went to church, and I still don't know. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He went to church and he could not find out. Prabhupāda: That may be. John Fahey: They told, but I didn't feel it. Prabhupāda: That may be, but you may be cheated, that is another thing. Suppose you ask something from somebody. If he cheats you, that may be your mistake or his, but the process is the same; you cannot avoid that. If you want to know God, then you have to go to a person who knows God. You might have gone to a person who does not know. That is another thing. You went to a wrong person. But actually if you want to know God, you must have to go to a person who knows God. That you have to search out. That requires intelligence. But you cannot give up the idea. Because you have been cheated, "I could not get information," therefore you cannot give up that business. You have to find out somebody else. But because you say: "I have been cheated. I could not get the right information. I stop this business," that is not allowed. You must. Therefore, according to Vedic order it is said, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must (go) to a person to understand that science of God. You must go to a guru or a man who knows. Guru means who is more intelligent. Guru means weight, heavy, heavier, that heavier in knowledge. So you have to find out a person who is heavier than you, not ordinary. Must go. Not that may go or may not go. No. Must go. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. *And what is the symptom of guru ? Śrotriyaṁ . Means he has heard about God from his superior, his guru . Śrotriyaṁ . And how can I know that he has heard from his superior about God? He might say that "Yes, I have heard," but what symptoms I shall . . .? Brahmā*-niṣṭham. Brahmā-niṣṭham means that he has become a complete devotee of God, result. Just like a man, a physician. A physician means he has attended the medical college, passed the examination, and the result is that he's practicing as a physician. Not only passing will do, but he's actually passing and he's actually practicing and he's curing patients. Therefore you find out a physician, "Here is a physician." It is not difficult. *So guru means one who knows God. How can I know that he knows God? Because he's making others to know God. Where is the difficulty? But if you go to a person who does not know God, that is your fault. If you go to a physician who is not actually physician, a store*-keeper, then that is your fault. You must have the intelligence who is a physician. *That much intelligence you have got. You see a signboard, Dr. Such*-and-such M.D., medical practitioners. Now you go there and you see there are patients waiting for him, for his treatment, he's giving medicine and they are being cured. Then where is the difficulty to find out a physician? There is no difficulty. So if one is serious to be cured of the disease, he must go to a physician. If he does not go to the physician, how he can be cured? Just like you have learned the guitar playing. Do you learn it alone or learn it from somebody? John Fahey: Mainly by myself. Prabhupāda: Huh? John Fahey: Mainly alone. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have followed somebody at least, standard. John Fahey: Oh, yeah, people I heard. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the way of learning what is God. The main business is that one must know God. It is not that because I approach some person and he did not know, he could not give me the right knowledge of God, then I give up this idea of knowing God. No. That will not . . . that is not good for human life. Then you remain animal. I might have been cheated or I might not have approached the proper person, but that does not mean I can stop that idea. That is not . . . In another place it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One who is actually inquisitive to understand the highest benefit of life, he must approach a guru . Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. Jijñāsu means inquisitive. Śreya —the highest benefit of life. Uttamam —highest. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ (SB 11.3.21). What is the qualification of such a person? Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ : he is completely well versed in the transcendental science. And what is the symptom that he is well versed? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam : he has taken shelter of Brahma or Kṛṣṇa or God, upāsanā , finishing all material desires. These two things: he is a devotee, but he has no more material desires. He must be well versed in the science, he must be a devotee, and he has no attraction for material things. These three things if you can find, then he's perfect guru . Everything is there in the śāstra ; and therefore books should be consulted. If you have no books, those who are discussing books, you should approach them, you should hear them. Just like we are holding class morning, evening. People can come here, take advantage what we are speaking, then gradually they can understand. But we cannot avoid that. That is not good idea. If I say that, "I went to church. I was not very much enlightened; therefore I give up this attempt," oh, that is not good. John Fahey: Oh, I didn't give it up. I'm still looking. Karandhara: He comes for ārātrika . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Karandhara: He takes prasāda . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Very good. You also come? Marilyn: I just got here a little while ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: I just got here a few days ago, but I've been twice. We'll be here Friday or Saturday or so. I chanted on the street. Prabhupāda: You chanted? Marilyn: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Saṅkīrtana party. Prabhupāda: Very good. John Fahey: We want to get some cymbals. Cymbals. Marilyn: Cymbals. We sang Hare Kṛṣṇa on the airplane. Prabhupāda: You're chanting on the airplane? John Fahey: Yeah, it was fun. Prabhupāda: You can chant anywhere. There is no restriction. There is no special rules and regulation. You can chant anywhere convenient. Whenever you find it convenient, you can chant. John Fahey: We were singing Hare Kṛṣṇa, so . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Go on singing. (laughter) Yes. Go on singing, and everything will be revealed within yourself, it is so nice. Marilyn: It's a comforting feeling. Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: It's a comforting feeling just from the whole repetition. Prabhupāda: Yes. So go on chanting, then everything will be all right. John Fahey: Can we get some cymbals? Prabhupāda: Whenever you find opportunity, you come and join with us. John Fahey: Can we get some cymbals? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. John Fahey: I don't know where to get them. Prabhupāda: (aside) You don't have any cymbal for selling? Karandhara: Not at the moment. Prabhupāda: So, you can keep some stocked. Karandhara: Yes. We've been waiting for shipment. They haven't arrived. Prabhupāda: You can give him loan. He's anxious. You can give him this small one. You take this. John Fahey: Thank you. (sound of karatālas ) Prabhupāda: I'll show you how to do it. Like this. (loud playing of karatālas ) One, two, three; one, two, three. (showing how to play karatālas ) It is not difficult. You are musician. Just play on meter: one, two, three; one, two, three. John Fahey: Thank you. Prabhupāda: For everything you have to learn from a guru. (laughter) Even for how to play. (more laughing) John Fahey: Like that? Prabhupāda: Yes: one, two, three. (more playing of karatālas ) John Fahey: Boy, those are nice bells, I mean cymbals. (playing more) Oh, boy. Thank you. Prabhupāda: So sit down together whenever you find time, one, two, three, play, and Hare Kṛṣṇa chant. John Fahey: Okay. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Prabhupāda! John Fahey: Thank you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Thank you. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: What is your name? John Fahey: John Fahey. Prabhupāda: John. Karandhara: John. Prabhupāda: Your name? Marilyn: Marilyn. Prabhupāda: What is? Marilyn: Marilyn. Karandhara: Marilyn. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 15, 1972, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: . . . past misdeeds, and this man cuts your hand, he creates another misdeed. In this way we become bound up by one deed after another. Karma*-bandhanaḥ . Śyāmasundara: So by this tampering of bodies they’ll become more and more entangled. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. First of all whether that . . . will be able to do so . . . (indistinct) . . . and even they are able too . . . Śyāmasundara: They’ve already done some . . . made some progress like that. Prabhupāda: What is that progress? They cannot create even an ant. Śyāmasundara: No, like changing the chromosomes and gene structures they’ve mutated bodies. Just like there was a . . . few years back there was a drug called Thalidomide, which was given widely to pregnant women. It was supposed to help them, but it turns out that it mutated many babies. It changed the cell structure in the womb, and they all came out without any limbs—born without arms and legs. Prabhupāda: That much harm they can do. That's all. Without arms and legs they would come? Śyāmasundara: It was a mistake. They created some drug which made babies being born without arms and legs. So they will be able to change bodies, that's . . . Prabhupāda: But change bodies cannot, because we have several times explained, that after sex the two kinds of secretion, they mix and emulsify, and it forms into a body like a pea. Then the pea grows. Now by medicinal process you can stop growing the hands and legs. Devotee: Yet they have mistaken whatever was supposed to grow that they would grow, they would take up the next step. So if an arm was supposed to grow that day, and she took that Thalidomide, the arm wouldn’t grow. The next day the process would continue to grow. So something would be missing from that day that the medicine was taken. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the growing condition . . . just like a seed is fructifying, but if you add something it may not fructify. Śyāmasundara: What they’re trying to do now is, in a tube, a glass tube, they recreate the conditions of sex life. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. What is the credit there? Why they are foolishly trying that? That is my proposal. Śyāmasundara: Well, their just simply curiosity . . . Prabhupāda: Suppose if they can create a living entity within a test tube, what is the credit there? There are so many living entities. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond natural law. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond . . . Śyāmasundara: The only use ultimately would be destructive. They’ll be able to ruin everything. Prabhupāda: And that they’re doing. They’re expert in doing it. Devotee: They can’t help it. How can they help it? Prabhupāda: They’ll create more chaos, that's all. Śyāmasundara: Even if they create fifty Einsteins. Einstein invented . . . Prabhupāda: If you . . . even if they create . . . what Einstein has done? Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb. Prabhupāda: What is the gift of Einstein? Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb. Prabhupāda: The atom bomb? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Einstein is worshiped because he has given atom bomb? That's all? Śyāmasundara: One of the things that they’re trying to do now that the space administration has spent millions of dollars already, they’re trying to create a cross between an animal and a man, which will have a human brain and an animal body composed of different types of animals, so that he can survive on other planets. Prabhupāda: So our Nṛsiṁhadeva is half, nṛsiṁha : half man. (laughter) So what is the credit there? We have already got. We worship. Anyway, we are not going to give any credit to these rascals. Śyāmasundara: No, let them do it first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever they propose, we have already got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we say, Prabhupāda, that all these efforts are due to the perverted nature? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Māyā . This is called māyā . They forget their real business, and they apply their brain in some nonsense activity. Childish. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But their nonsense is imitation of some kind of Absolute. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Their nonsense is an imitation, a perversion . . . Prabhupāda: Imitation is that the Absolute has got creative power, and they have got the creative power, they’re using it pervertedly. That's all. That creative power . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: From where do they get these ideas? Prabhupāda: This creative power . . . the ideas, any, a child can have, many ideas. Ideas, that's not going to be . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t there a perfect form of these ideas in the spiritual world, which originally these perversions came from? *Prabhupāda: The perversion came from the idea. I have already explained. In the spiritual world the creative power is there. They can create anything they like. That, that is . . . that what they create, that is all*-blissful and pleasurable. And there . . . this creative power here is used, whatever they create, that creates misery. That's all. That is the difference. Because it is perverted. It is perverted. It's like perverted, you can understand in this way. *Just like a tree is standing on a bank of a river. Now the top of the tree is reflected down. Just like in Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with the gopīs. That is parakīya*-rasa. The atmosphere is that the gopīs belong . . . they are wives of other, but they have come to Kṛṣṇa. This parakīya-rasa . *Parakīya*-rasa means enjoyment with others' husband or others' wife. This is called parakīya-rasa. Sakhya means "married," and parakīya means "extra." There, this parakīya-rasa is the supreme. And here, this parakīya-rasa is the most abominable. The parakīya-rasa is there, but here it is abominable, and there it is supreme. Śyāmasundara: The top becomes the bottom. Prabhupāda: And the bottom becomes the top. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Similiarly, can we conclude that, for example, that if they have cars here or if they have bicycles here, or if they have any kind of facilities . . . Prabhupāda: No. Bicycle we have created, eh? Bicycles we have created, so the real thing is that we have got the creative power. As you are creating simply to become entangled. That creative power is being misused, and you are becoming more and more entangled. That is the problem. Now when there is question of creative power, there may be so many things created. The basic principle is creative power. You . . . not that because by my concocted creative power I’ve manufactured bicycle, there must be a bicycle. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: Not that. Śyāmasundara: They have other vehicles, the chariots . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. The chariots are nice thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t the bicycle a perversion of that chariot? In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Perversion it is, because you are . . . your ideas are perverted, you are creating some perversion which is useless there. They don’t create anything which has no bliss and knowledge. Here, everything is created under ignorance and . . . misgivings? Misunderstandings. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are . . . (indistinct) . . . inquisitive of change, by nature. The real scientists, of course, they’re completely under the control of the real consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . but in their thinking, they think that whatever they do is done by themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . being is controlling . . . from . . . a change of consciousness. From spiritual consciousness, they change it into material consciousness, so things become worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What about the . . . what is curiosity? What is that feeling of curiosity? Prabhupāda: Curiosity is inquisitiveness, "What is that? What is that?" Śyāmasundara: Is that present in the spiritual world also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Even there is, the answer is already there. Śyāmasundara: Even the answer is there, still there's curiosity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And then the original curiosity is the curiosity to know Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So what I’m trying to say . . . Prabhupāda: Original curiosity—everything in relation with Kṛṣṇa. Here also we’re inquisitive to know the material nature, and that is also Kṛṣṇa. But that is the external energy of the Lord. But they are the internal energy. Śyāmasundara: So they can go on forever and never find . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Illusory. Śyāmasundara: More and more complex. Prabhupāda: That is sung by one Vaiṣṇava poet: Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi. Ikṣu. Ikṣu , sugarcane, eh, and a stick is like sugarcane. So they’re chewing the stick, not the sugarcane. (laughter) Both looks the rod, pole. But here the unfortunate, they’re trying to get juice from a rod. They have no information of the sugarcane. That is also like rod. It is perverted reflection of that rod, and they're trying to chew it and get juice out of it. That is their rascaldom. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . if you . . . perverted rod you chew, thinking it that it is sugarcane, then where is the sweetness? Where is the sweetness? You are chewing a rod, and you are trying to get sweetness out of it. How it will be possible? That is a different thing. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . very good . . . that is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Śyāmasundara: There seems to be . . . Prabhupāda: And just like the snake is very cold, you know? Śyāmasundara: Cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Body is very cold. So one is very heated, and he takes the snake to become cold, and the snake bites—finished. It is like that: taking cooling effect from the body of the snake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we say that your wanting cooling effect is all right, but your going to the wrong source, that's the mistake. In other words, the curiosity is all right, the idea is all right . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That creative force is there, so use that creative force for satisfying Kṛṣṇa. Then you’ll get credit. But here they’re using the creative force for satisfying their senses. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They’re going to the snake. Prabhupāda: Yes, senses. Therefore they’re suffering. There is the mistake. The creative force, the chemical knowledge, chemist or physist, they advance the creative . . . now they should use it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like chemist or a physist, by chemical statement they may prove that it is Kṛṣṇa, the original. Then that creative force will be . . . Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā . Here we also, we discover so many things by tapasya . It is also tapasya , that "These people are dying; we are going to do like that." That is tapasya . So they’re discovering something after many years' researches—that is called tapasya. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya , education; sviṣṭasya , gentle behavior. Sūktasya . All good things. Intelligence, charity—these are all good things, tapasya . Hmm? But how these things will be successful? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito : by kavi , by great sages, saintly persons, they have decided that by all these creative forces, you try to describe the Supreme Lord. Śyāmasundara: Describe. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The scientists can describe. A . . . (indistinct) . . . man, he's describing the Supreme Lord by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But a scientist, by his chemical research, by physical research, as they're doing, he, instead of getting a life in the test tube, nonsensical, if they make research and find out, the so*-called scientists and physists and chemists can understand through chemistry, by physics, Kṛṣṇa, that will be . . . perfect . . . they're researching, they're trying to find out the life within the test tube, but why not find out Kṛṣṇa? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is that possible, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not possible? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, I thought that the only way possible is through approaching guru and śāstra . Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything has to be learned by approaching guru , because guru is giving. I’m guru , I’m giving you instruction. But by your chemical knowledge you try to explain Kṛṣṇa. By your physical knowledge you to try to explain Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything. This chemistry, physics, mechanics, everything, that is manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's different energies. So when you have captured the energy, that through the energy go to the energetic, that will be success. That is nice. Śyāmasundara: You mean just . . . Prabhupāda: Then your learning of chemistry, physics and mechanics and whatever you are talking of, that will be required. But they are misusing, which is implausible. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But how could they, by . . . Prabhupāda: How could they, that is different thing. The instruction is that if you are researching something by your chemical knowledge, and if you’re trying to establish something, so instead of that nonsense thing, you try to find out Kṛṣṇa by your chemical knowledge. Chemical knowledge you can find out Kṛṣṇa. Why not? Śyāmasundara: Just like he was saying that there are four atoms that are the cause of everything: hydrogen, nitrogen . . .? Those four. So try to find out how those four are coming from Kṛṣṇa's energies. Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). This is chemistry. Is it not? Rasa , the liquid taste in water. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am." So now this water is the composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Now find out hydrogen, oxygen—Kṛṣṇa. Make this research. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But first he has to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa conscious is very, very high position. But if one wants to make his life successful . . . so here's chemist; this is a hint that this taste, the nice taste of water, is Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove it by chemical arrangement, or that experiment. Now Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the shining of the moon and the sun." Now you find out by physical experiment. This shining, there is a source. Now, the sun is the source, the moon is the source. Now try to find out wherefrom the sun came, who created the sun. Śyāmasundara: They’re still mystified that the sun can create so much energy and never be diminished. Prabhupāda: Yes. So who, who manufactured this item, sun? They also say sun is composed of these chemicals. So instead of trying to analyze this composition of the sun, find out wherefrom all these chemicals came, who manufactured. As soon as we say "chemical," it has to be manufactured by somebody. This research, that will make his chemical knowledge, physical knowledge, perfect. But if he wants to create something from globule, then it is a waste of his energy and misleading people. That he cannot. Śyāmasundara: They say that the chemicals came out of energy, came from sound . . . ah, vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes, the energy. So that energy must be coming . . . the electric energy is coming from the powerhouse. So you have to find out wherefrom these energies are coming. I have got some stock energy by which I can lift this, is it not? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, wherefrom the energy is coming, the lifting and moving and everything? That is real research. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, I understood that man could find about the properties of things and how they’re related to God, but he could not connect to God with the ordinary process. The only way to connect was through hearing and submitting. So . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. At least one should be intelligent to understand that wherefrom the energy is coming. The answer is in Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). So our proposition is, Kṛṣṇa conscious, we know that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all things. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. Now, one who has become chemist and physist, he can prove this, that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all. Then his knowledge of chemistry, physics, is perfect. But the people want to know through the modern science. So if one is real scientist, let him prove that yes, this energy is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: (to Svarūpa Dāmodara) It's your job. What is your field of science? Chemistry? What kind? Organic? Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Prove it, this rasa is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ : physics. "The shining, I am that." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya , prabhāsmi . . . śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu (BG 7.8). "This sound in the sky, that I am." Then prove by physics and chemistry. That is wanted. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . Not to propose some nonsense things: "In future we shall do this and that." Śyāmasundara: I was just looking at this picture. They have created this machine through so much labor and thousands . . . and hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to hook it up to this lamb, this unborn lamb, like an umbilical cord. So they have created an artificial mother, so to speak, for this animal. Prabhupāda: What is the use? They are such a fool. What is the use? The mother is already . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. The mother's standing there. The mother's in the pasture, right? Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense, spending money. Mūḍhā . Mūḍhā . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda is . . . *Prabhupāda: Yayā sammohito jīva ātmānaṁ tri*-guṇātmakam manute anarthaṁ (SB 1.7.5). Anarthaṁ . Anarthaṁ , useless things, any ways. Śyāmasundara: They get some . . . it seems . . . Prabhupāda: Already there is mother, and they’re spending millions of dollars to create an artificial mother. Just see. Śyāmasundara: There seems to be a natural propensity for man to enjoy putting two things together and watching them. A satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: That was creative. The creative force. Creative force. So God is creating. He has got the creative force, multi*-energies. So just like a child, a small child, a baby, he also take another baby, doll baby. It is like that. I mean it has no value. (laughter) It has no value. (laughs) It is like that. Śyāmasundara: We’re playing with dolls. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And taking it seriously. Prabhupāda: Sometimes in your country, small children, they cook. They have got small utensils. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. My sister's son, when he was young, they’re cooking with a lamp, (laughs) and a small piece of dough, purī , and I was the guest. (laughter) (laughs) It is not cooked; simply dipped in the ghee . And I was to eat. Eh? Hot purī! It is like that. And it's nothing but enjoying. "Mother is cooking, so we shall cook." It is like that. God is creating. Lamp. "Ah, we shall create." Then that much credit, that's all. Childish. Śyāmasundara: Childish. Prabhupāda: Yes, childish playing. And foolish person, foolish man like me, he is eating that purī . (laughter) You see? So, these things are childish, and they’re enjoyed by the rascals and fools. That's all. It has no value. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists think that knowledge is given on by Kṛṣṇa, and whatever we do is for Kṛṣṇa. So they’re all trying to make something that they think that they are doing, they think that they are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, they must see that by doing that, that Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is it . . . that should be. Yes, we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa, but whether by that thing Kṛṣṇa is pleased, that is to be seen. That is bhakti . Otherwise, you cannot do without Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. The ingredients are Kṛṣṇa. The intelligence is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your hand is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your leg is given by Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa. But the credit is by doing something, when you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then you will be successful. You cannot go within the boundary of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Just like the same thing: the children are playing mock purīs . So that is within this jurisdiction of the parents. They’re not independent. They want to play, "Mother, give me this little dough, I shall . . ." "All right, take it." "Give me little ghee ," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "That's it." So it is not without the jurisdiction of the parents. But if by making the purī the mother and father or the guardian is satisfied, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is childish. Śyāmasundara: They please the parents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise it is childish. That's all. No value. Śyāmasundara: But why is there pleasure in creating something, in making? Prabhupāda: Pleasure in him, not to others. This creation will not please anyone else except that rascal. Śyāmasundara: Yes, but what is that in the act of creating something, say, even I’m a rascal, if I create something nice like this, how do I . . . why do I get pleasure from doing that? What is that pleasure? Prabhupāda: Pleasure? Śyāmasundara: By making something, creating something . . . Prabhupāda: Because you are active. You are living being, you are active. So by activity means you are living. That is pleasure. Śyāmasundara: If I create something like a poem or a picture, why do I get pleasure from that act, that activity? Prabhupāda: Because you have got senses. So your senses are satisfied that you have created something. By that sense satisfaction you are thinking you are satisfied. Śyāmasundara: Ohhh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is temporary it's not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, sense satisfaction. Śyāmasundara: Oh, by recreating with our hands what our brain conceives . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, it is your sense pleasure, that's all. That is material. Śyāmasundara: Ah. It is part of the false ego . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . to think, "I am creating this." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when you instruct that the scientists should use their science to discover Kṛṣṇa, could we, as your students, acquire scientific knowledge also . . . Prabhupāda: No. You don’t require to acquire scientific . . . whatever knowledge you have got, with that knowledge you try to please Kṛṣṇa. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: The main business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Now, because I am saying the scientist may do this for pleasing, that doesn’t mean that you have to become a scientist and then please Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you have got, please Kṛṣṇa. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For example, I have got a little knowledge of psychology. Prabhupāda: So you do that. Do that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I can prove . . . (indistinct) . . . that, that man has scientifically . . . that man has a spirit, and that spirit is intelligent . . . Prabhupāda: Do that. Do that. That will be great contribution. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, can’t we study things like this in these classes as well? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, your aim is to prove the existence of Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. That is nice. That is the meaning of this verse I . . . *Uttamaśloka*-guṇānuvarṇanam . Psychology, how it is working by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's energy—if you can describe, that will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I think we will discuss one contemporary psychologist named B. F. Skinner. His basic theory is that everything is mechanical, that our psychology is a product of our conditioning. So we can tomorrow discuss that. I don’t have any other questions about science. (aside to devotees) Perhaps do you have any questions . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is modern Śrīla Prabhupāda. What is modern scientist . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is materially contaminated. Why the scientist? Everyone. Any living entity who is in this material world, he is contaminated. Everyone. Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair . You know this verse? Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair . Where is Pradyumna? You find out the verse from the index. Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair . Śyāmasundara: Tribhi . . . *Prabhupāda: . . . guṇa*-mayair bhāvair. *Śyāmasundara: "T*-r-e" or "i"? *Prabhupāda: "i." Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair . Find out the verse. Devotee: Trividya ? Traividya ? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair. Tribhir . T-r-i-b-i-h . (devotees look for verse) (indistinct comments) Pradyumna: The translation: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: This is the verse. What is purport? Pradyumna: "The whole world is enchanted by three modes of the material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered." "By nature, living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmins . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas . Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life." "However, these designations are not permanent. I may either be a brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmin , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men, deluded by these three modes of nature, do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead." "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." *Prabhupāda: So without being Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is in ignorance. And in ignorance, whatever you say, that is all loose talks. That's all. It has no value. Basic standing is ignorance. Not only the scientist—not only the so*-called scientist—everyone. They’re illusioned. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this, in this . . . most common people believe in so*-called scientific findings of scientists, because they think that science is going to change their fate—they’re going to make a nice house, science discovers something, it will give them . . . (indistinct) . . . very nice things. So all the scientists, the so-called modern scientists, they are, if they change a little bit their consciousness to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they can understand the condition of people thinking that scientists are going in the right direction, they are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the scientist turn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the face of the world will be changed. Because: The leading personalities, if they do something, others will follow. That we want. You become a big great scientist, at the same time devotee, then people will follow. If we say something by hearing from you, that is secondary knowledge. But if you say directly you have got sound footing of scientific knowledge, that will be nicely followed by others. Whatever we say, we say on the strength of Kṛṣṇa's statement: "Kṛṣṇa says this," "Oh, yes." Just like Kṛṣṇa says: "Everything emanates from Me." Now if a scientist says in scientific language that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa, that will be followed by many persons. What is that verse? (pause) You have found? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ? Pradyumna: (Prabhupāda says along with him) "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: People are misled because the leaders are misleaders. Therefore just like this man: he is talking all nonsense, he's a rascal number one. Now, in the name of scientific words, this or that, people will be misled. That's all. Śyāmasundara: The leaders are giving him millions of dollars for research. Prabhupāda: Yes. Misleaders. So when I talked "misleaders" in that . . . (indistinct) . . . they were doing like that. (gestures) I told them they are all misleaders. They were silent; they could not challenge me, because they know they are misleaders. How they can challenge? They know their position that, "We are nothing." They are simply bluffing people, that's all. Just like a man who is a thief. If you challenge him, "You are a thief," he will hesitate to say "No." Right? And as soon as he remains silent, that means he's thief. If he is not thief, he will immediately say: "You rascal, why you are calling me thief? What I have done? Give me proof." That will be answer. But if he remains silent, that means he is thief. Maunaṁśamyati lakṣaṇam . If one remains after challenge silent, that means he says "Yes." The silent means "Yes." Śyāmasundara: So if we challenge the scientist and they cannot answer us . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: If we challenge the scientists and they cannot reply . . . Prabhupāda: They will reply, foolishly, "Yes, we are trying to find out. We shall do in future." This evasive reply. That is not reply. Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is they have no basis; they don’t know where everything came from . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. That is their defect. Śyāmasundara: They don’t know how it started. They don’t know where it's going. They just observe a little piece of it, and they say that, "This is what we are doing." (pause) Prabhupāda: Therefore knowledge means janmādyasya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), to find out the original cause. That is knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Original cause. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Brahmā says: "Here is original: sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam " (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ . Śyāmasundara: Once you said that science means to know everything about something. Everything about something. So practically there is no science. They don’t know. "Maybe," "Could be," "Perhaps." Prabhupāda: Yes, science means everything about. That is science. Now we know that. "Something" means Kṛṣṇa. And so far we understand from the śāstra , we can explain everything. Śyāmasundara: But they can’t explain anything about what they’re working with. It's all theories. Prabhupāda: Law of gravitation: the apple falls down. They find out, discover law of gravitation. But why the apple falls here—now find out this way, not that way. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: They say that the earth, the center of the earth, is iron, is mostly iron, and that makes magnetic field around the earth so that everything is drawn toward the center. Prabhupāda: But the tree grows in this way. What is that force? Śyāmasundara: It's trying to resist gravity. Growing means to grow against gravity. Prabhupāda: But why doesn’t it grow this way? The tree is growing this way. Why not this way? Śyāmasundara: Sometimes, if it is trying to get the sunlight . . . Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . (break) Śyāmasundara: . . . the law of least resistance. Prabhupāda: So change it. Grow it this way. Śyāmasundara: If they have to get the light, to the light, sometimes they grow like this. Prabhupāda: Then there is "if." Then is beyond your control. When you say: "if," then it is beyond your control. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. And nature is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore ultimate controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now they have manufactured this aeroplane, and the design is just like bird. They cannot make any other design and fly. The two wings must be there. Now fly your airplane without any wings. So all these Xerox copy, that's all. That is their credit—copying. And they are taking, by copying, the same childish play. By preparing something nonsense, you can make another nonsense. They are taking it, "Mother, I have done this. Mother I have done this." Mother says: "Yes, dance, dance, dance like monkey." (laughter) Mother knows what that is. This is going on. Śyāmasundara: So even make a little airplane out of paper and throw it, they think . . . Prabhupāda: Relative. According to my knowledge I throw it, that's all. And his knowledge is mechanical. But he does not know how many big, big aeroplanes and planets are floating in the air. That is creation of God. That aeroplane, so much mechanical element, and as soon as there is a big wind, "Fasten your belt." (laughter) When there is danger, "Fasten your belt." But this big lump of matter, earth, so much, I mean, bluster and so much air and wind, but we do not feel any trembling. But it is actually blowing. That's a fact. Śyāmasundara: Two thousand miles, around? Prabhupāda: And moving at one thousand miles per hour. They cannot understand. This is perfection. God never says: "Now a big blast is coming: fasten your belt. Fasten your belt." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Perfect arrangement . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam idaṁ. This is pūrṇam , perfect, complete. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate . Why it is perfect? Because He is perfect. He is perfect. He is not . . . pūrṇam udacyate. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya : that perfect is so perfect, many millions of planets are created by His perfect energy, and still He remains the same. Not that He is finished, His energy is finished. No. He still remains perfect. That is perfection. Here in the material world, however perfect you may be, you go on conserving, retaining your energy, then you’ll . . . (indistinct) . . . I'll be old, I’ll become again finished. But that energy is never finished. The example is given, the touchstone. The touchstone, you go on touching iron, it becomes gold. But the touchstone's energy remains the same. Śyāmasundara: The magnet is like that, too, isn’t it? The magnet? It can touch so many pieces of iron, and they will all become magnetized, but the magnet remains the same magnetic. Prabhupāda: Its power . . . (indistinct) . . . or touchstone. Anyway, they are the material things only. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa. Take the sun. How much energy and heat is coming for millions and millions of years. Where is the loss? Śyāmasundara: No loss. *Prabhupāda: This is material. You create something small. They have created this clock, one*-year winding, and we have to wind it three times a day, although it is . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: What is that? They say once a year? Prabhupāda: Once a year winding. And we have to take care of it three times a day. (laughter) This is nonsense. Imperfect. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when Kṛṣṇa came, why did He break some of these rules? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Why did He break some of His own rules? Prabhupāda: Because He is God. Yes. He must do that. Otherwise how He is God? If He is under the rules and regulation, then He's man, He is a human being. Should break it. That is His body. If He cannot break, then He is under the laws, the laws are not under Him. So breaking the law is Kṛṣṇa's qualification. His qualification. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does . . . the end of the life of Brahmā, part of, could be also explained like natural laws? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like end of your life, similarly Brahmā's end of life, what is the difficulty to understand? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then everything else would all of a sudden stop in the material world? Prabhupāda: That we shall see . . . at the end of Brahmā's life. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: If we're here. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 15, 1972, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: . . . past misdeeds, and this man cuts your hand, he creates another misdeed. In this way we become bound up by one deed after another. Karma*-bandhanaḥ . Śyāmasundara: So by this tampering of bodies they’ll become more and more entangled. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. First of all whether that . . . will be able to do so . . . (indistinct) . . . and even they are able too . . . Śyāmasundara: They’ve already done some . . . made some progress like that. Prabhupāda: What is that progress? They cannot create even an ant. Śyāmasundara: No, like changing the chromosomes and gene structures they’ve mutated bodies. Just like there was a . . . few years back there was a drug called Thalidomide, which was given widely to pregnant women. It was supposed to help them, but it turns out that it mutated many babies. It changed the cell structure in the womb, and they all came out without any limbs—born without arms and legs. Prabhupāda: That much harm they can do. That's all. Without arms and legs they would come? Śyāmasundara: It was a mistake. They created some drug which made babies being born without arms and legs. So they will be able to change bodies, that's . . . Prabhupāda: But change bodies cannot, because we have several times explained, that after sex the two kinds of secretion, they mix and emulsify, and it forms into a body like a pea. Then the pea grows. Now by medicinal process you can stop growing the hands and legs. Devotee: Yet they have mistaken whatever was supposed to grow that they would grow, they would take up the next step. So if an arm was supposed to grow that day, and she took that Thalidomide, the arm wouldn’t grow. The next day the process would continue to grow. So something would be missing from that day that the medicine was taken. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the growing condition . . . just like a seed is fructifying, but if you add something it may not fructify. Śyāmasundara: What they’re trying to do now is, in a tube, a glass tube, they recreate the conditions of sex life. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. What is the credit there? Why they are foolishly trying that? That is my proposal. Śyāmasundara: Well, their just simply curiosity . . . Prabhupāda: Suppose if they can create a living entity within a test tube, what is the credit there? There are so many living entities. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond natural law. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond . . . Śyāmasundara: The only use ultimately would be destructive. They’ll be able to ruin everything. Prabhupāda: And that they’re doing. They’re expert in doing it. Devotee: They can’t help it. How can they help it? Prabhupāda: They’ll create more chaos, that's all. Śyāmasundara: Even if they create fifty Einsteins. Einstein invented . . . Prabhupāda: If you . . . even if they create . . . what Einstein has done? Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb. Prabhupāda: What is the gift of Einstein? Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb. Prabhupāda: The atom bomb? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Einstein is worshiped because he has given atom bomb? That's all? Śyāmasundara: One of the things that they’re trying to do now that the space administration has spent millions of dollars already, they’re trying to create a cross between an animal and a man, which will have a human brain and an animal body composed of different types of animals, so that he can survive on other planets. Prabhupāda: So our Nṛsiṁhadeva is half, nṛsiṁha : half man. (laughter) So what is the credit there? We have already got. We worship. Anyway, we are not going to give any credit to these rascals. Śyāmasundara: No, let them do it first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever they propose, we have already got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we say, Prabhupāda, that all these efforts are due to the perverted nature? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Māyā . This is called māyā . They forget their real business, and they apply their brain in some nonsense activity. Childish. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But their nonsense is imitation of some kind of Absolute. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Their nonsense is an imitation, a perversion . . . Prabhupāda: Imitation is that the Absolute has got creative power, and they have got the creative power, they’re using it pervertedly. That's all. That creative power . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: From where do they get these ideas? Prabhupāda: This creative power . . . the ideas, any, a child can have, many ideas. Ideas, that's not going to be . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t there a perfect form of these ideas in the spiritual world, which originally these perversions came from? *Prabhupāda: The perversion came from the idea. I have already explained. In the spiritual world the creative power is there. They can create anything they like. That, that is . . . that what they create, that is all*-blissful and pleasurable. And there . . . this creative power here is used, whatever they create, that creates misery. That's all. That is the difference. Because it is perverted. It is perverted. It's like perverted, you can understand in this way. *Just like a tree is standing on a bank of a river. Now the top of the tree is reflected down. Just like in Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with the gopīs. That is parakīya*-rasa. The atmosphere is that the gopīs belong . . . they are wives of other, but they have come to Kṛṣṇa. This parakīya-rasa . *Parakīya*-rasa means enjoyment with others' husband or others' wife. This is called parakīya-rasa. Sakhya means "married," and parakīya means "extra." There, this parakīya-rasa is the supreme. And here, this parakīya-rasa is the most abominable. The parakīya-rasa is there, but here it is abominable, and there it is supreme. Śyāmasundara: The top becomes the bottom. Prabhupāda: And the bottom becomes the top. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Similiarly, can we conclude that, for example, that if they have cars here or if they have bicycles here, or if they have any kind of facilities . . . Prabhupāda: No. Bicycle we have created, eh? Bicycles we have created, so the real thing is that we have got the creative power. As you are creating simply to become entangled. That creative power is being misused, and you are becoming more and more entangled. That is the problem. Now when there is question of creative power, there may be so many things created. The basic principle is creative power. You . . . not that because by my concocted creative power I’ve manufactured bicycle, there must be a bicycle. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: Not that. Śyāmasundara: They have other vehicles, the chariots . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. The chariots are nice thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t the bicycle a perversion of that chariot? In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Perversion it is, because you are . . . your ideas are perverted, you are creating some perversion which is useless there. They don’t create anything which has no bliss and knowledge. Here, everything is created under ignorance and . . . misgivings? Misunderstandings. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are . . . (indistinct) . . . inquisitive of change, by nature. The real scientists, of course, they’re completely under the control of the real consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . but in their thinking, they think that whatever they do is done by themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . being is controlling . . . from . . . a change of consciousness. From spiritual consciousness, they change it into material consciousness, so things become worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What about the . . . what is curiosity? What is that feeling of curiosity? Prabhupāda: Curiosity is inquisitiveness, "What is that? What is that?" Śyāmasundara: Is that present in the spiritual world also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Even there is, the answer is already there. Śyāmasundara: Even the answer is there, still there's curiosity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And then the original curiosity is the curiosity to know Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So what I’m trying to say . . . Prabhupāda: Original curiosity—everything in relation with Kṛṣṇa. Here also we’re inquisitive to know the material nature, and that is also Kṛṣṇa. But that is the external energy of the Lord. But they are the internal energy. Śyāmasundara: So they can go on forever and never find . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Illusory. Śyāmasundara: More and more complex. Prabhupāda: That is sung by one Vaiṣṇava poet: Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi. Ikṣu. Ikṣu , sugarcane, eh, and a stick is like sugarcane. So they’re chewing the stick, not the sugarcane. (laughter) Both looks the rod, pole. But here the unfortunate, they’re trying to get juice from a rod. They have no information of the sugarcane. That is also like rod. It is perverted reflection of that rod, and they're trying to chew it and get juice out of it. That is their rascaldom. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . if you . . . perverted rod you chew, thinking it that it is sugarcane, then where is the sweetness? Where is the sweetness? You are chewing a rod, and you are trying to get sweetness out of it. How it will be possible? That is a different thing. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . very good . . . that is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Śyāmasundara: There seems to be . . . Prabhupāda: And just like the snake is very cold, you know? Śyāmasundara: Cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Body is very cold. So one is very heated, and he takes the snake to become cold, and the snake bites—finished. It is like that: taking cooling effect from the body of the snake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we say that your wanting cooling effect is all right, but your going to the wrong source, that's the mistake. In other words, the curiosity is all right, the idea is all right . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That creative force is there, so use that creative force for satisfying Kṛṣṇa. Then you’ll get credit. But here they’re using the creative force for satisfying their senses. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They’re going to the snake. Prabhupāda: Yes, senses. Therefore they’re suffering. There is the mistake. The creative force, the chemical knowledge, chemist or physist, they advance the creative . . . now they should use it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like chemist or a physist, by chemical statement they may prove that it is Kṛṣṇa, the original. Then that creative force will be . . . Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā . Here we also, we discover so many things by tapasya . It is also tapasya , that "These people are dying; we are going to do like that." That is tapasya . So they’re discovering something after many years' researches—that is called tapasya. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya , education; sviṣṭasya , gentle behavior. Sūktasya . All good things. Intelligence, charity—these are all good things, tapasya . Hmm? But how these things will be successful? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito : by kavi , by great sages, saintly persons, they have decided that by all these creative forces, you try to describe the Supreme Lord. Śyāmasundara: Describe. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The scientists can describe. A . . . (indistinct) . . . man, he's describing the Supreme Lord by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But a scientist, by his chemical research, by physical research, as they're doing, he, instead of getting a life in the test tube, nonsensical, if they make research and find out, the so*-called scientists and physists and chemists can understand through chemistry, by physics, Kṛṣṇa, that will be . . . perfect . . . they're researching, they're trying to find out the life within the test tube, but why not find out Kṛṣṇa? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is that possible, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not possible? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, I thought that the only way possible is through approaching guru and śāstra . Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything has to be learned by approaching guru , because guru is giving. I’m guru , I’m giving you instruction. But by your chemical knowledge you try to explain Kṛṣṇa. By your physical knowledge you to try to explain Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything. This chemistry, physics, mechanics, everything, that is manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's different energies. So when you have captured the energy, that through the energy go to the energetic, that will be success. That is nice. Śyāmasundara: You mean just . . . Prabhupāda: Then your learning of chemistry, physics and mechanics and whatever you are talking of, that will be required. But they are misusing, which is implausible. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But how could they, by . . . Prabhupāda: How could they, that is different thing. The instruction is that if you are researching something by your chemical knowledge, and if you’re trying to establish something, so instead of that nonsense thing, you try to find out Kṛṣṇa by your chemical knowledge. Chemical knowledge you can find out Kṛṣṇa. Why not? Śyāmasundara: Just like he was saying that there are four atoms that are the cause of everything: hydrogen, nitrogen . . .? Those four. So try to find out how those four are coming from Kṛṣṇa's energies. Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). This is chemistry. Is it not? Rasa , the liquid taste in water. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am." So now this water is the composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Now find out hydrogen, oxygen—Kṛṣṇa. Make this research. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But first he has to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa conscious is very, very high position. But if one wants to make his life successful . . . so here's chemist; this is a hint that this taste, the nice taste of water, is Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove it by chemical arrangement, or that experiment. Now Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the shining of the moon and the sun." Now you find out by physical experiment. This shining, there is a source. Now, the sun is the source, the moon is the source. Now try to find out wherefrom the sun came, who created the sun. Śyāmasundara: They’re still mystified that the sun can create so much energy and never be diminished. Prabhupāda: Yes. So who, who manufactured this item, sun? They also say sun is composed of these chemicals. So instead of trying to analyze this composition of the sun, find out wherefrom all these chemicals came, who manufactured. As soon as we say "chemical," it has to be manufactured by somebody. This research, that will make his chemical knowledge, physical knowledge, perfect. But if he wants to create something from globule, then it is a waste of his energy and misleading people. That he cannot. Śyāmasundara: They say that the chemicals came out of energy, came from sound . . . ah, vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes, the energy. So that energy must be coming . . . the electric energy is coming from the powerhouse. So you have to find out wherefrom these energies are coming. I have got some stock energy by which I can lift this, is it not? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, wherefrom the energy is coming, the lifting and moving and everything? That is real research. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, I understood that man could find about the properties of things and how they’re related to God, but he could not connect to God with the ordinary process. The only way to connect was through hearing and submitting. So . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. At least one should be intelligent to understand that wherefrom the energy is coming. The answer is in Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). So our proposition is, Kṛṣṇa conscious, we know that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all things. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. Now, one who has become chemist and physist, he can prove this, that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all. Then his knowledge of chemistry, physics, is perfect. But the people want to know through the modern science. So if one is real scientist, let him prove that yes, this energy is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: (to Svarūpa Dāmodara) It's your job. What is your field of science? Chemistry? What kind? Organic? Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Prove it, this rasa is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ : physics. "The shining, I am that." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya , prabhāsmi . . . śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu (BG 7.8). "This sound in the sky, that I am." Then prove by physics and chemistry. That is wanted. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . Not to propose some nonsense things: "In future we shall do this and that." Śyāmasundara: I was just looking at this picture. They have created this machine through so much labor and thousands . . . and hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to hook it up to this lamb, this unborn lamb, like an umbilical cord. So they have created an artificial mother, so to speak, for this animal. Prabhupāda: What is the use? They are such a fool. What is the use? The mother is already . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. The mother's standing there. The mother's in the pasture, right? Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense, spending money. Mūḍhā . Mūḍhā . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda is . . . *Prabhupāda: Yayā sammohito jīva ātmānaṁ tri*-guṇātmakam manute anarthaṁ (SB 1.7.5). Anarthaṁ . Anarthaṁ , useless things, any ways. Śyāmasundara: They get some . . . it seems . . . Prabhupāda: Already there is mother, and they’re spending millions of dollars to create an artificial mother. Just see. Śyāmasundara: There seems to be a natural propensity for man to enjoy putting two things together and watching them. A satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: That was creative. The creative force. Creative force. So God is creating. He has got the creative force, multi*-energies. So just like a child, a small child, a baby, he also take another baby, doll baby. It is like that. I mean it has no value. (laughter) It has no value. (laughs) It is like that. Śyāmasundara: We’re playing with dolls. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And taking it seriously. Prabhupāda: Sometimes in your country, small children, they cook. They have got small utensils. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. My sister's son, when he was young, they’re cooking with a lamp, (laughs) and a small piece of dough, purī , and I was the guest. (laughter) (laughs) It is not cooked; simply dipped in the ghee . And I was to eat. Eh? Hot purī! It is like that. And it's nothing but enjoying. "Mother is cooking, so we shall cook." It is like that. God is creating. Lamp. "Ah, we shall create." Then that much credit, that's all. Childish. Śyāmasundara: Childish. Prabhupāda: Yes, childish playing. And foolish person, foolish man like me, he is eating that purī . (laughter) You see? So, these things are childish, and they’re enjoyed by the rascals and fools. That's all. It has no value. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists think that knowledge is given on by Kṛṣṇa, and whatever we do is for Kṛṣṇa. So they’re all trying to make something that they think that they are doing, they think that they are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, they must see that by doing that, that Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is it . . . that should be. Yes, we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa, but whether by that thing Kṛṣṇa is pleased, that is to be seen. That is bhakti . Otherwise, you cannot do without Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. The ingredients are Kṛṣṇa. The intelligence is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your hand is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your leg is given by Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa. But the credit is by doing something, when you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then you will be successful. You cannot go within the boundary of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Just like the same thing: the children are playing mock purīs . So that is within this jurisdiction of the parents. They’re not independent. They want to play, "Mother, give me this little dough, I shall . . ." "All right, take it." "Give me little ghee ," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "That's it." So it is not without the jurisdiction of the parents. But if by making the purī the mother and father or the guardian is satisfied, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is childish. Śyāmasundara: They please the parents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise it is childish. That's all. No value. Śyāmasundara: But why is there pleasure in creating something, in making? Prabhupāda: Pleasure in him, not to others. This creation will not please anyone else except that rascal. Śyāmasundara: Yes, but what is that in the act of creating something, say, even I’m a rascal, if I create something nice like this, how do I . . . why do I get pleasure from doing that? What is that pleasure? Prabhupāda: Pleasure? Śyāmasundara: By making something, creating something . . . Prabhupāda: Because you are active. You are living being, you are active. So by activity means you are living. That is pleasure. Śyāmasundara: If I create something like a poem or a picture, why do I get pleasure from that act, that activity? Prabhupāda: Because you have got senses. So your senses are satisfied that you have created something. By that sense satisfaction you are thinking you are satisfied. Śyāmasundara: Ohhh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is temporary it's not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, sense satisfaction. Śyāmasundara: Oh, by recreating with our hands what our brain conceives . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, it is your sense pleasure, that's all. That is material. Śyāmasundara: Ah. It is part of the false ego . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . to think, "I am creating this." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when you instruct that the scientists should use their science to discover Kṛṣṇa, could we, as your students, acquire scientific knowledge also . . . Prabhupāda: No. You don’t require to acquire scientific . . . whatever knowledge you have got, with that knowledge you try to please Kṛṣṇa. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: The main business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Now, because I am saying the scientist may do this for pleasing, that doesn’t mean that you have to become a scientist and then please Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you have got, please Kṛṣṇa. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For example, I have got a little knowledge of psychology. Prabhupāda: So you do that. Do that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I can prove . . . (indistinct) . . . that, that man has scientifically . . . that man has a spirit, and that spirit is intelligent . . . Prabhupāda: Do that. Do that. That will be great contribution. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, can’t we study things like this in these classes as well? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, your aim is to prove the existence of Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. That is nice. That is the meaning of this verse I . . . *Uttamaśloka*-guṇānuvarṇanam . Psychology, how it is working by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's energy—if you can describe, that will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I think we will discuss one contemporary psychologist named B. F. Skinner. His basic theory is that everything is mechanical, that our psychology is a product of our conditioning. So we can tomorrow discuss that. I don’t have any other questions about science. (aside to devotees) Perhaps do you have any questions . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is modern Śrīla Prabhupāda. What is modern scientist . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is materially contaminated. Why the scientist? Everyone. Any living entity who is in this material world, he is contaminated. Everyone. Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair . You know this verse? Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair . Where is Pradyumna? You find out the verse from the index. Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair . Śyāmasundara: Tribhi . . . *Prabhupāda: . . . guṇa*-mayair bhāvair. *Śyāmasundara: "T*-r-e" or "i"? *Prabhupāda: "i." Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair . Find out the verse. Devotee: Trividya ? Traividya ? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair. Tribhir . T-r-i-b-i-h . (devotees look for verse) (indistinct comments) Pradyumna: The translation: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: This is the verse. What is purport? Pradyumna: "The whole world is enchanted by three modes of the material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered." "By nature, living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmins . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas . Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life." "However, these designations are not permanent. I may either be a brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmin , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men, deluded by these three modes of nature, do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead." "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." *Prabhupāda: So without being Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is in ignorance. And in ignorance, whatever you say, that is all loose talks. That's all. It has no value. Basic standing is ignorance. Not only the scientist—not only the so*-called scientist—everyone. They’re illusioned. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this, in this . . . most common people believe in so*-called scientific findings of scientists, because they think that science is going to change their fate—they’re going to make a nice house, science discovers something, it will give them . . . (indistinct) . . . very nice things. So all the scientists, the so-called modern scientists, they are, if they change a little bit their consciousness to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they can understand the condition of people thinking that scientists are going in the right direction, they are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the scientist turn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the face of the world will be changed. Because: The leading personalities, if they do something, others will follow. That we want. You become a big great scientist, at the same time devotee, then people will follow. If we say something by hearing from you, that is secondary knowledge. But if you say directly you have got sound footing of scientific knowledge, that will be nicely followed by others. Whatever we say, we say on the strength of Kṛṣṇa's statement: "Kṛṣṇa says this," "Oh, yes." Just like Kṛṣṇa says: "Everything emanates from Me." Now if a scientist says in scientific language that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa, that will be followed by many persons. What is that verse? (pause) You have found? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ? Pradyumna: (Prabhupāda says along with him) "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: People are misled because the leaders are misleaders. Therefore just like this man: he is talking all nonsense, he's a rascal number one. Now, in the name of scientific words, this or that, people will be misled. That's all. Śyāmasundara: The leaders are giving him millions of dollars for research. Prabhupāda: Yes. Misleaders. So when I talked "misleaders" in that . . . (indistinct) . . . they were doing like that. (gestures) I told them they are all misleaders. They were silent; they could not challenge me, because they know they are misleaders. How they can challenge? They know their position that, "We are nothing." They are simply bluffing people, that's all. Just like a man who is a thief. If you challenge him, "You are a thief," he will hesitate to say "No." Right? And as soon as he remains silent, that means he's thief. If he is not thief, he will immediately say: "You rascal, why you are calling me thief? What I have done? Give me proof." That will be answer. But if he remains silent, that means he is thief. Maunaṁśamyati lakṣaṇam . If one remains after challenge silent, that means he says "Yes." The silent means "Yes." Śyāmasundara: So if we challenge the scientist and they cannot answer us . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: If we challenge the scientists and they cannot reply . . . Prabhupāda: They will reply, foolishly, "Yes, we are trying to find out. We shall do in future." This evasive reply. That is not reply. Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is they have no basis; they don’t know where everything came from . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. That is their defect. Śyāmasundara: They don’t know how it started. They don’t know where it's going. They just observe a little piece of it, and they say that, "This is what we are doing." (pause) Prabhupāda: Therefore knowledge means janmādyasya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), to find out the original cause. That is knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Original cause. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Brahmā says: "Here is original: sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam " (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ . Śyāmasundara: Once you said that science means to know everything about something. Everything about something. So practically there is no science. They don’t know. "Maybe," "Could be," "Perhaps." Prabhupāda: Yes, science means everything about. That is science. Now we know that. "Something" means Kṛṣṇa. And so far we understand from the śāstra , we can explain everything. Śyāmasundara: But they can’t explain anything about what they’re working with. It's all theories. Prabhupāda: Law of gravitation: the apple falls down. They find out, discover law of gravitation. But why the apple falls here—now find out this way, not that way. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: They say that the earth, the center of the earth, is iron, is mostly iron, and that makes magnetic field around the earth so that everything is drawn toward the center. Prabhupāda: But the tree grows in this way. What is that force? Śyāmasundara: It's trying to resist gravity. Growing means to grow against gravity. Prabhupāda: But why doesn’t it grow this way? The tree is growing this way. Why not this way? Śyāmasundara: Sometimes, if it is trying to get the sunlight . . . Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . (break) Śyāmasundara: . . . the law of least resistance. Prabhupāda: So change it. Grow it this way. Śyāmasundara: If they have to get the light, to the light, sometimes they grow like this. Prabhupāda: Then there is "if." Then is beyond your control. When you say: "if," then it is beyond your control. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. And nature is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore ultimate controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now they have manufactured this aeroplane, and the design is just like bird. They cannot make any other design and fly. The two wings must be there. Now fly your airplane without any wings. So all these Xerox copy, that's all. That is their credit—copying. And they are taking, by copying, the same childish play. By preparing something nonsense, you can make another nonsense. They are taking it, "Mother, I have done this. Mother I have done this." Mother says: "Yes, dance, dance, dance like monkey." (laughter) Mother knows what that is. This is going on. Śyāmasundara: So even make a little airplane out of paper and throw it, they think . . . Prabhupāda: Relative. According to my knowledge I throw it, that's all. And his knowledge is mechanical. But he does not know how many big, big aeroplanes and planets are floating in the air. That is creation of God. That aeroplane, so much mechanical element, and as soon as there is a big wind, "Fasten your belt." (laughter) When there is danger, "Fasten your belt." But this big lump of matter, earth, so much, I mean, bluster and so much air and wind, but we do not feel any trembling. But it is actually blowing. That's a fact. Śyāmasundara: Two thousand miles, around? Prabhupāda: And moving at one thousand miles per hour. They cannot understand. This is perfection. God never says: "Now a big blast is coming: fasten your belt. Fasten your belt." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Perfect arrangement . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam idaṁ. This is pūrṇam , perfect, complete. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate . Why it is perfect? Because He is perfect. He is perfect. He is not . . . pūrṇam udacyate. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya : that perfect is so perfect, many millions of planets are created by His perfect energy, and still He remains the same. Not that He is finished, His energy is finished. No. He still remains perfect. That is perfection. Here in the material world, however perfect you may be, you go on conserving, retaining your energy, then you’ll . . . (indistinct) . . . I'll be old, I’ll become again finished. But that energy is never finished. The example is given, the touchstone. The touchstone, you go on touching iron, it becomes gold. But the touchstone's energy remains the same. Śyāmasundara: The magnet is like that, too, isn’t it? The magnet? It can touch so many pieces of iron, and they will all become magnetized, but the magnet remains the same magnetic. Prabhupāda: Its power . . . (indistinct) . . . or touchstone. Anyway, they are the material things only. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa. Take the sun. How much energy and heat is coming for millions and millions of years. Where is the loss? Śyāmasundara: No loss. *Prabhupāda: This is material. You create something small. They have created this clock, one*-year winding, and we have to wind it three times a day, although it is . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: What is that? They say once a year? Prabhupāda: Once a year winding. And we have to take care of it three times a day. (laughter) This is nonsense. Imperfect. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when Kṛṣṇa came, why did He break some of these rules? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Why did He break some of His own rules? Prabhupāda: Because He is God. Yes. He must do that. Otherwise how He is God? If He is under the rules and regulation, then He's man, He is a human being. Should break it. That is His body. If He cannot break, then He is under the laws, the laws are not under Him. So breaking the law is Kṛṣṇa's qualification. His qualification. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does . . . the end of the life of Brahmā, part of, could be also explained like natural laws? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like end of your life, similarly Brahmā's end of life, what is the difficulty to understand? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then everything else would all of a sudden stop in the material world? Prabhupāda: That we shall see . . . at the end of Brahmā's life. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: If we're here. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 18, 1972, Los Angeles Śyāmasundara: Mr. Sarda has some relatives in London, and he was . . . the relatives were trying to force the girls to go to Nairobi, and they still, they did not want to go. So they ran away to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They went to Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have gone to Bombay? Śyāmasundara: Yes. So they are living in our temple in Bombay. The two girls. And this father wants them to come home for some reason. They don't want to come home. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I did not know all these things. Śyāmasundara: It's not very important. He can send a letter. So many . . . if you try to involve yourself with so many of these things . . . (laughs) There are so many things like this going on all over the world, and if you try to deal with all of them . . . Prabhupāda: So why they have gone to Bombay? Śyāmasundara: Because their parents were sending agents to force them to go off to Nairobi. So they had to escape. They wanted to go to India. Prabhupāda: So what is their objection to go to Nairobi? Śyāmasundara: They just don't . . . they want be . . . remain devotees. They say their father eats meat, and they violate all the principles, and they force them to stay away from the temple. Prabhupāda: Father eats meat? Śyāmasundara: They think that their parents will try to force them from coming to the temple. Prabhupāda: But how we can advise them not . . . to disobey their father? Śyāmasundara: No. I told Dhanañjaya that if his father . . . their father wants, then they should go to Nairobi. He called me to ask advice, and I said then they should go if their father and mother insist. And he said, "But they don't want to go. What can I do? I can't force them to go." So they ran away. They ran away to Bombay. I just found out maybe two days ago, and now they are in Bombay. That's what one girl said, who has just come from London. She said that they ran to Bombay. Prabhupāda: But they have gone to Bombay, that's all right. But his father is our . . . (indistinct) . . . if he wants that their daughters should come back, they should help. Śyāmasundara: So I asked him, "If you want to talk with me, I will relay the message, much easier," and he said: "No, no, no. Well, I want to talk to Prabhupāda." I said: "Well, can't you send a wire or a letter?" And then he . . . there was a long pause, and then the line went "click." (pause) Karandhara and I were just talking, and you know they want . . . these girls want to start that temple in Mexico, northern Mexico. But if so many things are happening as a result of too much expansion, why should we take more risk? Prabhupāda: No, that will remain for the time. Śyāmasundara: Don't open any more centers for a while. There are devotees together. (pause) You want to have philosophy class? *Prabhupāda: Mm*-hm. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) All right. (aside about someone on the phone call) Oh, okay phone call. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, that boy Pravīṇa*-candra has got those two books that you asked for. You want I should get them, the books on Indian philosophy? Should I get them? (pause) He also got one additional one. These are the two you asked for. Here is the additional one that he found. (pause) (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 18, 1972, Los Angeles Śyāmasundara: Mr. Sarda has some relatives in London, and he was . . . the relatives were trying to force the girls to go to Nairobi, and they still, they did not want to go. So they ran away to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They went to Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have gone to Bombay? Śyāmasundara: Yes. So they are living in our temple in Bombay. The two girls. And this father wants them to come home for some reason. They don't want to come home. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I did not know all these things. Śyāmasundara: It's not very important. He can send a letter. So many . . . if you try to involve yourself with so many of these things . . . (laughs) There are so many things like this going on all over the world, and if you try to deal with all of them . . . Prabhupāda: So why they have gone to Bombay? Śyāmasundara: Because their parents were sending agents to force them to go off to Nairobi. So they had to escape. They wanted to go to India. Prabhupāda: So what is their objection to go to Nairobi? Śyāmasundara: They just don't . . . they want be . . . remain devotees. They say their father eats meat, and they violate all the principles, and they force them to stay away from the temple. Prabhupāda: Father eats meat? Śyāmasundara: They think that their parents will try to force them from coming to the temple. Prabhupāda: But how we can advise them not . . . to disobey their father? Śyāmasundara: No. I told Dhanañjaya that if his father . . . their father wants, then they should go to Nairobi. He called me to ask advice, and I said then they should go if their father and mother insist. And he said, "But they don't want to go. What can I do? I can't force them to go." So they ran away. They ran away to Bombay. I just found out maybe two days ago, and now they are in Bombay. That's what one girl said, who has just come from London. She said that they ran to Bombay. Prabhupāda: But they have gone to Bombay, that's all right. But his father is our . . . (indistinct) . . . if he wants that their daughters should come back, they should help. Śyāmasundara: So I asked him, "If you want to talk with me, I will relay the message, much easier," and he said: "No, no, no. Well, I want to talk to Prabhupāda." I said: "Well, can't you send a wire or a letter?" And then he . . . there was a long pause, and then the line went "click." (pause) Karandhara and I were just talking, and you know they want . . . these girls want to start that temple in Mexico, northern Mexico. But if so many things are happening as a result of too much expansion, why should we take more risk? Prabhupāda: No, that will remain for the time. Śyāmasundara: Don't open any more centers for a while. There are devotees together. (pause) You want to have philosophy class? *Prabhupāda: Mm*-hm. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) All right. (aside about someone on the phone call) Oh, okay phone call. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, that boy Pravīṇa*-candra has got those two books that you asked for. You want I should get them, the books on Indian philosophy? Should I get them? (pause) He also got one additional one. These are the two you asked for. Here is the additional one that he found. (pause) (cut) (end) Conversation Excerpt -- June 21, 1972, Los Angeles Pradyumna: ...name of the Lord is identical with the Lord Himself. Prabhupāda: What is that great rascal says that Kṛṣṇa... Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is the chief of the tribe that lived in Central India. Prabhupāda: Just see, and he's passing on as a great scholar, such a rascal. Devotee: He had 10,000 ah, subjects. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, all of them become nullified and this rascal comes forward to defy all the ācāryas and push some new theory. Just see. This is going on. (Sanskrit) In the Varāha Purāṇa it is stated that some of the rākṣasas, they will take advantage of Kali*-yuga and take birth in brāhmaṇa families, so he is one of them, this rākṣasa. And now he is suffering for that. Greatest calamity, you see? And according to Vedic injunction, the king if he levies tax from the subjects who are sinful, then he has to partake of the sinful action and he'll have to suffer. So, this rascal became the president of India, it is the position of king and on the (indistinct) of him he supported the slaughterhouses and levied taxes and he took high salary, enjoyed it. Now he is suffering the effect, sinful effect. Now in his living condition he has lost his brain. He, practically dead but living condition, it is very precarious condition. One is living actually but his brain is not acting, worse than a madman. So, this is the result of the rākṣasa statement. Yes, go on. (end) Conversation -- June 24, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . to serve the Supreme Lord. America has got special advantage for serving the Supreme, and by the grace of the Lord you have got everything. Man's first necessity is arrange for eating, sleeping. Of course, there is nothing is to be arranged, everything is arranged already. But still, due to our ignorance, we are anxious for what we shall eat, where shall I sleep, how my sense gratification will be done, how my country will be defended. *Just like this morning we have seen in newspaper that eastern part of the country is inundated. So you cannot defend by nature's onslaught. When there is nature, you cannot defend. At any time within a moment, the whole thing can be finished. Nature is so strong. Just like here the Pacific Ocean is. One big wave six*-stories high, it can immediately over-flood. And to raise a wave of six-story high from Pacific Ocean is nothing. It can be done at any moment. And a six-stories-high wave, if it is coming the Los Angeles side, where you shall remain? Everything will be finished. So nature is so strong, you cannot defend. Although we call the word "defend". Defend, you can defend against mosquito or bugs, that's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Not against the onslaught of nature, that is not possible. So you can defend yourself from the onslaught of the nature by surrendering to God. Otherwise there is no way. So people should learn this art, how to surrender to God, then every protection is there. So, other countries they may plead, just like in India, people were completely dependent on God. Now they have learned to defend themselves by so*-called science, economic development, but the ultimate protector is God. Without His sanction, nobody can defend. You try for defense, you try or not try, if you are not defended, protected by God, nobody can protect you. This is nature's law. So by nature's law it is so made that everything is there complete. So we can depend on God and do little work and get our economic development complete. Anywhere, any part of the world you go, a little . . . you can produce very easily little grains, fruits, and if you have got cows, milk, your economic problem is solved. But if you want high roads, three dozen motorcars, three dozen slaughterhouse, six dozen naked club, that is different thing. That is different thing. But for your living condition, by God's arrangement, everything is complete. You haven’t got to endeavor, little endeavor. Just like you have to eat. The eatables should be there, you have to simply exert like this, that's all. Similarly, all things are there by God's arrangement, eatables. You simply exert this much, that's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you become God conscious, all your problems will be solved and you’ll be happy. All problems are solved automatically. Just like the animals, less than human being, whose intelligence is less than human being, they have no problem. Eating problem, they have no problem. They rise early in the morning (makes sounds like birds), the birds, and anywhere they go there are little fruits, they eat, that's all. And eating sleeping, they sleep nicely on the branches at night, very cool air. And sometimes when they lay eggs, they prepare a little nest, they put on the eggs say for two months. And when the, what is called, cubs? Devotees: Chicks. Little birds. Prabhupāda: Ah, little birds they have grown up, they have learned how to fly, they have no connection with home, finished. When the female bird is pregnant, they create some nest to lay eggs. At that time, they collect the sticks and do it nicely for their purpose. No use of skyscraper building. (laughter) Similarly, we can also build nice cottage. There are so many woods. Anywhere you can cut some tree and have nice cottage, till the ground, get grains and keep cows, gives milk, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is nature's arrangement. But we want to violate nature's law. Therefore, 50,000 men are being killed in auto motor accident in your country because you have got the largest number of cars. You must die, 50,000 a year. That is another nature's law. You are creating so many roads, flyways, one after another, one after another, one after another, still 50,000 men are being killed, is it not? So the more you want to be artificially happy, the more you create problem. This is law of nature. But we don’t discourage the material advancement, we don’t discourage. But we simply request that whatever you do, you be God conscious. Then you will be happy. This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . you do, you build nice house. Just like we are having this temple, 24 hours program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that does not mean we are lying down on the street. We are also having nice apartment, we are using this dictaphone, this telephone, electric fan, everything, but for the purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other purpose. We are 24 hours engaged, all our men, simply for Kṛṣṇa's business. Similarly, whole thing, whole business, factory, anything that we have created for our comfortable life, they can be all engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then there will be happiness really. Now in spite of so much advancement in material comforts, there are so many frustrated youths. They are lying down on the street, on the beach, without any sufficient clothing. They think this is natural. I say, therefore, to my countrymen that you say that your country, or India, is poverty stricken so many men are lying on the street, they have no shelter, no food. But I am in a country, America, where is food supply more than necessities, why they are lying down on the beach? Just see. They have no want, there is no scarcity, and still they are like wretches. And the university, Hawaii University, all the students just like urchins, no nice dress. Everyone has come to become hippies. Why? They haven’t want. They have got nice fathers, rich father, rich grandfather, rich country, nice university building, but they are becoming frustrated, dressing like urchins, poverty stricken, artificially. Why? *So, therefore, our protection . . . the father does not want that his son or daughter should be so wretchedly dressed. But they dress . . . I have seen in Beverly Hills the hippies coming out from very respectable houses, must be his father very rich, having nice motorcar, but that torn dress. So this is the position, that if one is neglected by God, so despite all possession, he will be poverty stricken. Just like you are a rich man, your son is sick. You have engaged the first*-class physician, first-class medicine, and still he dies. What is the reason? From scientific point of view you are giving all first-class help, but why the child dies? That means these things are not only the cause of the child's protection, there is something else. That something else is God. Until His sanction, nobody can be happy, nobody can be peaceful. This is the law of nature. So artificially by materially, we cannot make ourselves happy. Then we shall find out happiness in that way. The hippies are finding out, lying down on the street, wretched dress, no regulative principles. They are thinking they are happy than their father. So in that way, everyone has got his own standard of happiness. That is one kind of happiness, but real happiness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. That is real happiness. *Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam ( BG 6.21), in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, the real happiness is uncovered by this material encagement. Now our happiness is covered. Take for example, you cannot enjoy sex happiness covered, but when it is not covered, that is happiness. Similarly, our present happiness is covered because we are covered by this material encagement. When we are uncovered of this material encagement, then real happiness is there. Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam. That atīndriyam means super-consciousness, and super-consciousness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is very simple. *Now we are working for our own sense gratification, everyone is working. When you work for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, that is super*-consciousness. It is not very difficult. A child is whimsically thinking of his own happiness, but the father, who loves the child, he's working whole day and night to see how the child will be happy. His happiness is there. He wants to see his children nicely grown up, nicely fed, that is his happiness. But child is thinking that by eating dirt, I shall be happy. He is eating dirt. So our happiness, real happiness will be felt when we serve Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *You can . . . just like here in my room there is Kṛṣṇa's picture, we have given it a small, nice place to sit down, offering something to eat. This consciousness. Actually whatever we are offering we are eating our self, but the consciousness is that Kṛṣṇa is eating. This is wanted. Kṛṣṇa is not hungry. If we offer to Kṛṣṇa, He is self*-sufficient, God, He doesn’t require anything because His things we are eating. These fruits and flowers, it is not manufactured by me, it is manufactured by God, we are enjoying. So what is the harm if we simply admit, "Sir, it is your thing. You first take, then we shall take." How much nice this consciousness. To acknowledge His grace, His mercy. You cannot manufacture this flower, it is manufactured by Kṛṣṇa, by His intelligence. So why not offer first to Kṛṣṇa, then you take it. Or by the side of Kṛṣṇa, we put the flowers by the side of Kṛṣṇa and we see Kṛṣṇa beautiful, more beautiful with the flowers, His creation. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So everyone can do it, where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? So you American people, you are intelligent, you are not poverty stricken. So you take this, try to understand, you take this and be happy. Why you are becoming hippies? Be happies. So we have come to give you something, not to bluff you that I give you some special mantra , give me my fees and I go away. It is not like that. It is something tangible we are giving. And those who are accepting, they are becoming happy. You have seen our temple, our temple? As soon as you go, you will feel some spiritual advancement immediately. (aside) So, it is better than dāl . Devotee: Oh, shall I bring this everyday then? Prabhupāda: Hm. You have seen our books? Guest (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Kṛṣṇa . . . Guest (1): I have most of them. Prabhupāda: Read these books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follow the regulative principles, be happy, individually or collectively. Great saintly persons in India, they would sit down underneath a tree and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , read these books, and they will forget their big post of ministership. That Rūpa Goswami, Sanātana Goswami, they were ministers in the government service. And they went to Vṛndāvana and lived underneath a tree, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading and writing books, that's all. Guest (2): How do you know which is the best path to follow? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (2): How do you know which the best path to follow? Prabhupāda: By practical experience. Atreya Ṛṣi: Best path. Prabhupāda: Best path. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the best path, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because people are becoming happy. From hippies they are becoming happies now. Therefore, it is the best path. They were confused, frustrated, now they have got hopes of life. Thousands of boys and girls, they are admitting that, "You have given us a life." Ask any of the students, they will admit. That is the best path. Guest (2): It is so confusing. Prabhupāda: Confusing for those who do not understand. But if he tries to understand with little cool brain, it is not confusing. The simple thing is to understand that we are under the laws of nature. Just like there is flood. Not only flood, another news was there, some, what is that? High jet, high . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: Highjack, highjack. Prabhupāda: Highjack. He has taken 500 thousand, 502 thousands of dollars by threatening the government. So this kind of miseries by highjack, it is called adhibautic . And the flood is called adhidaivic . Besides that, there is another misery which is called adhiatmic . Adhiatmic means due to your personal body and mind. Adhibautic means miseries offered by others. And Adhidaivic means miseries which is offered by nature. So these three kinds of miserable condition of life is always there. If there is no highjacks, then there is headache, mental anxiety. If there is no natural disturbance, there is highjack department, disturbance. *So either of these three, either three or two or one must be there always. This is your position. But it means you are controlled by the laws of nature. But these laws of nature is also controlled by somebody. Because as soon as you call "law", there must be somebody law*-giver or law controller. Just like in the state there is department of law and order and there is departmental head also, director of law and order. Similarly, the laws of nature are very strong, stringent, but there is a controller of. The scientists admit that they simply study the laws of nature but they do not know who has made these laws of nature. But we can say who is the maker of these laws, law of nature. That is the difference. Scientists, they are also trying, material science, to make you happy by different discoveries, inventions. But they have failed because they do not know, they are trying to overcome the laws of nature, that much. But they do not know who is the maker of the laws of nature. We know that we are suffering by the stringent laws of nature but if we surrender to the maker of the laws of nature, then there is relief. Just like a man by law, state law, he is ordered to be hanged, but he takes shelter of the supreme executive, president or the king, he can excuse. He can excuse from, for being hanged. Nobody can. The high court judge or the governor or so many, there are others who are executing the laws, they cannot excuse. By law he must be hanged. But if he appeals for king's mercy or the president's mercy and the president becomes merciful, he may be saved. Similarly, the laws of nature are very stringent, you cannot be saved. But if you take shelter of the person who makes the laws of nature, you will be saved. That is the best path. Is it not? Atreya Ṛṣi: What other alternatives do you see? Prabhupāda: You cannot get out of the laws of nature, that is not possible. (pause) And surrender to God, Kṛṣṇa, is also very easy. We have got this bag and chanting these beads, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. There is no expenditure, there is no loss. What is the cost of these beads, they are very inexpensive. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: You can chant. Atreya Ṛṣi: Isn’t Kṛṣṇa the purpose of all paths? Prabhupāda: Hm? Atreya Ṛṣi: Isn’t Kṛṣṇa the purpose of all other paths ultimately? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the objective. Atreya Ṛṣi: Every path? Prabhupāda: Somebody knows Kṛṣṇa, somebody does not know. Just as child crying for mother cannot express. He has no language, but he is crying for mother. One who knows, he brings the child or brings the mother together and there is happiness. The experienced man knows the child is crying for mother so calls the mother, or the child is taken to the mother and there is happiness. Although the child does not express, "I want mother", but he knows. Similarly, those who are expert, they know everyone is wanting Kṛṣṇa, but he does not know, he cannot express due to his ignorance. So: One who is experienced, he tries to combine Kṛṣṇa and the other. And actually he becomes happy as soon as he will come in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Is that alright? Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, you know or not know, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either being requested by us or by your conscience, you will be happy. Somehow or other if you touch the fire, it will act. So we are bringing everyone, trying to bring everyone, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And someone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is happy. Guest (2): What's the difference between chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and other forms of meditation? Prabhupāda: What is that other forms of meditation, I must know. Atreya Ṛṣi: Such as? Guest (2): Such as Transcendental Meditation. Prabhupāda: What is that, explain? Guest (2): Repetition of a mantra . Prabhupāda: So we are also repeating mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Atreya Ṛṣi: But what does the mantra say? Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from. We are, this is mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difference? Guest (2): I don’t know. *Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The only difference is that the so*-called Transcendental Meditation is a special mantra , a special mantra ? Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not scientific. Science is not special for you, science is for everyone. Just like this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is for everyone. It is not special for any person, person, and secret. This is bluff. If there is something good in connection with God, that is open secret. That cannot be secret. God's sunlight is open for everyone. It is not that only rich man will get the sunlight who can pay for it. Sunlight is free and open to everyone. That is God's grace. Similarly, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is open for everyone, it is God's grace. This mantra should be meditated, then there will be perfection. Other things are bluff. That is the difference. One is genuine, and the other is bluff. That is the difference. You wanted to know the difference. The difference is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is genuine and any other thing, that is bluff, cheating, that's all. This is the difference. One is genuine, and the other is bluff. Why it is genuine and what is that bluff? That bluff, some especially for a person. That is not God's gift. God's gift is open to everyone without any charge. The example I have already given, the sunlight. Sunlight is not meant for the rich, the richer section of the city. It is open to the ocean also. Just like pouring of rain from God's gift, the cloud, open to everyone. The land requires raining for being moist, but the water does not require, but the rain is there also. It is so sufficient. It is on the hill also. Hill does not require rain. On the hill there is no production, nobody is going to produce grains, neither on the water. But it is so sufficient and liberal that it is on the water, on the hill, besides on the land. That is God's gift. God's gift is not for a particular person, individual. Atreya Ṛṣi: This Hare Kṛṣṇa is not only for one person, it is so free we’re offering it on the streets. Prabhupāda: Even for the children, they are taking part. The children also dance. The small children, not even one year, when there will be chanting, on the lap of the mother they are . . . every day we see. It doesn’t require any education, natural. Soul's function. As soon as there is soul, it will act, immediately. That is the difference. This is also meditation. Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, could you explain how soul acts to the mantra ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Atreya Ṛṣi: How the soul acts to the sound vibration? Prabhupāda: Because it is spiritual vibration and soul is spirit, so at once it is attracted on the same level, same platform. (pause) Guest (2): How do you meditate, how . . .? Do you just say, do you just sit and say Hare Kṛṣṇa, or do you do it all the time? Prabhupāda: You have not seen our class in the morning? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: You come and you see how we do it, meditate. Practically you will see how our meditation is going on. Come between seven and eight, you will find in the morning. Devotee (2): Earlier also we are chanting japa . Prabhupāda: Early also. If not early, you can come between seven and eight. Give them a little prasāda . Devotee (2): There is some for them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Would you like me to get some for them? There is some saved for them. Atreya Ṛṣi: There is some saved. Devotee (2): Also I’ll show Terry Stevens your books also. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): I’ll show him your books also. Prabhupāda: So. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (1): I should have spoken sooner, I suppose, but I didn’t know if I should. How does Lord Jesus fit in, that was my main problem all along, because I'm so strongly Catholic and yet I’ve been drawn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness too, and I can't seem to reconcile them. I’ve talked to the devotees and yet I can't get them completely set . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: She would like to know how Lord Jesus would fit into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Lord Jesus says that you love God. We love God, that's all. Guest (1): Yes, but there are such different rules in the two. Prabhupāda: That is not very important thing. Actually if you have learned to love God, that is wanted. (break) . . . by Lord Jesus Christ is different from the standard of our perception of lord of God, love of Godhead. Love of Godhead is one. God is one and how to love Him, that is also one. Now, we have to see by the result. *Just like two physicians are there. One physician is over*-crowded, another physician is counting the contents of his table. So people go to that physician who is curing very quickly, but both of them are physician. One may be very experienced, another may be not very experienced. But somehow or other one is crowded, another is not crowded. Similarly, both Christian religion or this Vedic religion is instructing people love of Godhead. Now you have to see where is the best result. That's it. Then you judge yourself. But we want that you love God. Either by this method or that method, the method is nothing. End justifies the means. If the end is that actually you have developed your love of God, then the means which you have adopted, that is alright. And if the end is not very good, then the means is also not good. So you have to judge yourself whether you are developing love for God or love for dog. Then you can judge. Why you are asking me? Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me? You can judge. Guest (1): Oh. Well, because I have been very confused for the last eight months. Prabhupāda: Why should you be confused? If you really want to love God, so you can test yourself whether I'm increasing my love of God or increasing love of dog. People are generally in love of dog, especially in your country. Everyone has got a pet dog. And we are preaching not dog, but God, that is the difference. So you have to test yourself whether I am loving God or loving dog. That's all. And our point of view is that you love God, never mind whatever the means, whether Christian means or Jewish means or any means, Hindu means, Muslim means, it doesn’t matter. You love God, that's all. Somehow or other you come to that point. That is our missionary activities. We are teaching, "Love God". Guest (1): Yes, but what confuses me is some of them . . . well, no, I shouldn’t put it that way. To love God in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you have to chant and follow the four regulative principles and then have association, which practically means living in a temple. Well, I'm from Fresno and there is no temple, so it's very difficult. Prabhupāda: So why don’t you come to the temple? Live near the temple. Guest (1): (laughs) I tried that. Prabhupāda: You live near the temple if you cannot live with us. Guest (1): Uh huh. Prabhupāda: Take an apartment near the temple, join temple service, and you will learn everything automatically. You live fortnight with us, you will love God. Fortnight, give a try, fortnight. Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fortnight one, fifteen days. You live with us, and you will learn how to love God. Guest (1): I did that, your Grace, for three weeks I did. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very easy. Just like to love God is not difficult because that is natural. Just like father and the son or mother and the son, the love is already there, fixed up. The son may forget, but the mother does not forget. But as soon as the mother and son comes together, the original love revives immediately. *Similarly, love of Godhead is natural. So by somehow or other you come near God, then you again love God. That is the purpose of temple. There is God, Radha*-Kṛṣṇa, living. We are giving Him everything, we are dressing Him, we are bathing Him, cleansing, we are praying, we are offering obeisances, in this way, the original love of God awakens. By this process. "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer Me your obeisances, and you become God conscious." Very easy. It doesn't require much education, Ph.D. title, nothing. So you can try for a fortnight here. If you like, you can live with us. Or you come. Now give them little prasāda . Devotee: Jaya , Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 24, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . to serve the Supreme Lord. America has got special advantage for serving the Supreme, and by the grace of the Lord you have got everything. Man's first necessity is arrange for eating, sleeping. Of course, there is nothing is to be arranged, everything is arranged already. But still, due to our ignorance, we are anxious for what we shall eat, where shall I sleep, how my sense gratification will be done, how my country will be defended. *Just like this morning we have seen in newspaper that eastern part of the country is inundated. So you cannot defend by nature's onslaught. When there is nature, you cannot defend. At any time within a moment, the whole thing can be finished. Nature is so strong. Just like here the Pacific Ocean is. One big wave six*-stories high, it can immediately over-flood. And to raise a wave of six-story high from Pacific Ocean is nothing. It can be done at any moment. And a six-stories-high wave, if it is coming the Los Angeles side, where you shall remain? Everything will be finished. So nature is so strong, you cannot defend. Although we call the word "defend". Defend, you can defend against mosquito or bugs, that's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Not against the onslaught of nature, that is not possible. So you can defend yourself from the onslaught of the nature by surrendering to God. Otherwise there is no way. So people should learn this art, how to surrender to God, then every protection is there. So, other countries they may plead, just like in India, people were completely dependent on God. Now they have learned to defend themselves by so*-called science, economic development, but the ultimate protector is God. Without His sanction, nobody can defend. You try for defense, you try or not try, if you are not defended, protected by God, nobody can protect you. This is nature's law. So by nature's law it is so made that everything is there complete. So we can depend on God and do little work and get our economic development complete. Anywhere, any part of the world you go, a little . . . you can produce very easily little grains, fruits, and if you have got cows, milk, your economic problem is solved. But if you want high roads, three dozen motorcars, three dozen slaughterhouse, six dozen naked club, that is different thing. That is different thing. But for your living condition, by God's arrangement, everything is complete. You haven’t got to endeavor, little endeavor. Just like you have to eat. The eatables should be there, you have to simply exert like this, that's all. Similarly, all things are there by God's arrangement, eatables. You simply exert this much, that's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you become God conscious, all your problems will be solved and you’ll be happy. All problems are solved automatically. Just like the animals, less than human being, whose intelligence is less than human being, they have no problem. Eating problem, they have no problem. They rise early in the morning (makes sounds like birds), the birds, and anywhere they go there are little fruits, they eat, that's all. And eating sleeping, they sleep nicely on the branches at night, very cool air. And sometimes when they lay eggs, they prepare a little nest, they put on the eggs say for two months. And when the, what is called, cubs? Devotees: Chicks. Little birds. Prabhupāda: Ah, little birds they have grown up, they have learned how to fly, they have no connection with home, finished. When the female bird is pregnant, they create some nest to lay eggs. At that time, they collect the sticks and do it nicely for their purpose. No use of skyscraper building. (laughter) Similarly, we can also build nice cottage. There are so many woods. Anywhere you can cut some tree and have nice cottage, till the ground, get grains and keep cows, gives milk, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is nature's arrangement. But we want to violate nature's law. Therefore, 50,000 men are being killed in auto motor accident in your country because you have got the largest number of cars. You must die, 50,000 a year. That is another nature's law. You are creating so many roads, flyways, one after another, one after another, one after another, still 50,000 men are being killed, is it not? So the more you want to be artificially happy, the more you create problem. This is law of nature. But we don’t discourage the material advancement, we don’t discourage. But we simply request that whatever you do, you be God conscious. Then you will be happy. This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . you do, you build nice house. Just like we are having this temple, 24 hours program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that does not mean we are lying down on the street. We are also having nice apartment, we are using this dictaphone, this telephone, electric fan, everything, but for the purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other purpose. We are 24 hours engaged, all our men, simply for Kṛṣṇa's business. Similarly, whole thing, whole business, factory, anything that we have created for our comfortable life, they can be all engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then there will be happiness really. Now in spite of so much advancement in material comforts, there are so many frustrated youths. They are lying down on the street, on the beach, without any sufficient clothing. They think this is natural. I say, therefore, to my countrymen that you say that your country, or India, is poverty stricken so many men are lying on the street, they have no shelter, no food. But I am in a country, America, where is food supply more than necessities, why they are lying down on the beach? Just see. They have no want, there is no scarcity, and still they are like wretches. And the university, Hawaii University, all the students just like urchins, no nice dress. Everyone has come to become hippies. Why? They haven’t want. They have got nice fathers, rich father, rich grandfather, rich country, nice university building, but they are becoming frustrated, dressing like urchins, poverty stricken, artificially. Why? *So, therefore, our protection . . . the father does not want that his son or daughter should be so wretchedly dressed. But they dress . . . I have seen in Beverly Hills the hippies coming out from very respectable houses, must be his father very rich, having nice motorcar, but that torn dress. So this is the position, that if one is neglected by God, so despite all possession, he will be poverty stricken. Just like you are a rich man, your son is sick. You have engaged the first*-class physician, first-class medicine, and still he dies. What is the reason? From scientific point of view you are giving all first-class help, but why the child dies? That means these things are not only the cause of the child's protection, there is something else. That something else is God. Until His sanction, nobody can be happy, nobody can be peaceful. This is the law of nature. So artificially by materially, we cannot make ourselves happy. Then we shall find out happiness in that way. The hippies are finding out, lying down on the street, wretched dress, no regulative principles. They are thinking they are happy than their father. So in that way, everyone has got his own standard of happiness. That is one kind of happiness, but real happiness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. That is real happiness. *Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam ( BG 6.21), in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, the real happiness is uncovered by this material encagement. Now our happiness is covered. Take for example, you cannot enjoy sex happiness covered, but when it is not covered, that is happiness. Similarly, our present happiness is covered because we are covered by this material encagement. When we are uncovered of this material encagement, then real happiness is there. Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam. That atīndriyam means super-consciousness, and super-consciousness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is very simple. *Now we are working for our own sense gratification, everyone is working. When you work for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, that is super*-consciousness. It is not very difficult. A child is whimsically thinking of his own happiness, but the father, who loves the child, he's working whole day and night to see how the child will be happy. His happiness is there. He wants to see his children nicely grown up, nicely fed, that is his happiness. But child is thinking that by eating dirt, I shall be happy. He is eating dirt. So our happiness, real happiness will be felt when we serve Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *You can . . . just like here in my room there is Kṛṣṇa's picture, we have given it a small, nice place to sit down, offering something to eat. This consciousness. Actually whatever we are offering we are eating our self, but the consciousness is that Kṛṣṇa is eating. This is wanted. Kṛṣṇa is not hungry. If we offer to Kṛṣṇa, He is self*-sufficient, God, He doesn’t require anything because His things we are eating. These fruits and flowers, it is not manufactured by me, it is manufactured by God, we are enjoying. So what is the harm if we simply admit, "Sir, it is your thing. You first take, then we shall take." How much nice this consciousness. To acknowledge His grace, His mercy. You cannot manufacture this flower, it is manufactured by Kṛṣṇa, by His intelligence. So why not offer first to Kṛṣṇa, then you take it. Or by the side of Kṛṣṇa, we put the flowers by the side of Kṛṣṇa and we see Kṛṣṇa beautiful, more beautiful with the flowers, His creation. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So everyone can do it, where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? So you American people, you are intelligent, you are not poverty stricken. So you take this, try to understand, you take this and be happy. Why you are becoming hippies? Be happies. So we have come to give you something, not to bluff you that I give you some special mantra , give me my fees and I go away. It is not like that. It is something tangible we are giving. And those who are accepting, they are becoming happy. You have seen our temple, our temple? As soon as you go, you will feel some spiritual advancement immediately. (aside) So, it is better than dāl . Devotee: Oh, shall I bring this everyday then? Prabhupāda: Hm. You have seen our books? Guest (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Kṛṣṇa . . . Guest (1): I have most of them. Prabhupāda: Read these books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follow the regulative principles, be happy, individually or collectively. Great saintly persons in India, they would sit down underneath a tree and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , read these books, and they will forget their big post of ministership. That Rūpa Goswami, Sanātana Goswami, they were ministers in the government service. And they went to Vṛndāvana and lived underneath a tree, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading and writing books, that's all. Guest (2): How do you know which is the best path to follow? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (2): How do you know which the best path to follow? Prabhupāda: By practical experience. Atreya Ṛṣi: Best path. Prabhupāda: Best path. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the best path, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because people are becoming happy. From hippies they are becoming happies now. Therefore, it is the best path. They were confused, frustrated, now they have got hopes of life. Thousands of boys and girls, they are admitting that, "You have given us a life." Ask any of the students, they will admit. That is the best path. Guest (2): It is so confusing. Prabhupāda: Confusing for those who do not understand. But if he tries to understand with little cool brain, it is not confusing. The simple thing is to understand that we are under the laws of nature. Just like there is flood. Not only flood, another news was there, some, what is that? High jet, high . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: Highjack, highjack. Prabhupāda: Highjack. He has taken 500 thousand, 502 thousands of dollars by threatening the government. So this kind of miseries by highjack, it is called adhibautic . And the flood is called adhidaivic . Besides that, there is another misery which is called adhiatmic . Adhiatmic means due to your personal body and mind. Adhibautic means miseries offered by others. And Adhidaivic means miseries which is offered by nature. So these three kinds of miserable condition of life is always there. If there is no highjacks, then there is headache, mental anxiety. If there is no natural disturbance, there is highjack department, disturbance. *So either of these three, either three or two or one must be there always. This is your position. But it means you are controlled by the laws of nature. But these laws of nature is also controlled by somebody. Because as soon as you call "law", there must be somebody law*-giver or law controller. Just like in the state there is department of law and order and there is departmental head also, director of law and order. Similarly, the laws of nature are very strong, stringent, but there is a controller of. The scientists admit that they simply study the laws of nature but they do not know who has made these laws of nature. But we can say who is the maker of these laws, law of nature. That is the difference. Scientists, they are also trying, material science, to make you happy by different discoveries, inventions. But they have failed because they do not know, they are trying to overcome the laws of nature, that much. But they do not know who is the maker of the laws of nature. We know that we are suffering by the stringent laws of nature but if we surrender to the maker of the laws of nature, then there is relief. Just like a man by law, state law, he is ordered to be hanged, but he takes shelter of the supreme executive, president or the king, he can excuse. He can excuse from, for being hanged. Nobody can. The high court judge or the governor or so many, there are others who are executing the laws, they cannot excuse. By law he must be hanged. But if he appeals for king's mercy or the president's mercy and the president becomes merciful, he may be saved. Similarly, the laws of nature are very stringent, you cannot be saved. But if you take shelter of the person who makes the laws of nature, you will be saved. That is the best path. Is it not? Atreya Ṛṣi: What other alternatives do you see? Prabhupāda: You cannot get out of the laws of nature, that is not possible. (pause) And surrender to God, Kṛṣṇa, is also very easy. We have got this bag and chanting these beads, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. There is no expenditure, there is no loss. What is the cost of these beads, they are very inexpensive. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: You can chant. Atreya Ṛṣi: Isn’t Kṛṣṇa the purpose of all paths? Prabhupāda: Hm? Atreya Ṛṣi: Isn’t Kṛṣṇa the purpose of all other paths ultimately? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the objective. Atreya Ṛṣi: Every path? Prabhupāda: Somebody knows Kṛṣṇa, somebody does not know. Just as child crying for mother cannot express. He has no language, but he is crying for mother. One who knows, he brings the child or brings the mother together and there is happiness. The experienced man knows the child is crying for mother so calls the mother, or the child is taken to the mother and there is happiness. Although the child does not express, "I want mother", but he knows. Similarly, those who are expert, they know everyone is wanting Kṛṣṇa, but he does not know, he cannot express due to his ignorance. So: One who is experienced, he tries to combine Kṛṣṇa and the other. And actually he becomes happy as soon as he will come in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Is that alright? Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, you know or not know, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either being requested by us or by your conscience, you will be happy. Somehow or other if you touch the fire, it will act. So we are bringing everyone, trying to bring everyone, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And someone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is happy. Guest (2): What's the difference between chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and other forms of meditation? Prabhupāda: What is that other forms of meditation, I must know. Atreya Ṛṣi: Such as? Guest (2): Such as Transcendental Meditation. Prabhupāda: What is that, explain? Guest (2): Repetition of a mantra . Prabhupāda: So we are also repeating mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Atreya Ṛṣi: But what does the mantra say? Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from. We are, this is mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difference? Guest (2): I don’t know. *Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The only difference is that the so*-called Transcendental Meditation is a special mantra , a special mantra ? Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not scientific. Science is not special for you, science is for everyone. Just like this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is for everyone. It is not special for any person, person, and secret. This is bluff. If there is something good in connection with God, that is open secret. That cannot be secret. God's sunlight is open for everyone. It is not that only rich man will get the sunlight who can pay for it. Sunlight is free and open to everyone. That is God's grace. Similarly, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is open for everyone, it is God's grace. This mantra should be meditated, then there will be perfection. Other things are bluff. That is the difference. One is genuine, and the other is bluff. That is the difference. You wanted to know the difference. The difference is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is genuine and any other thing, that is bluff, cheating, that's all. This is the difference. One is genuine, and the other is bluff. Why it is genuine and what is that bluff? That bluff, some especially for a person. That is not God's gift. God's gift is open to everyone without any charge. The example I have already given, the sunlight. Sunlight is not meant for the rich, the richer section of the city. It is open to the ocean also. Just like pouring of rain from God's gift, the cloud, open to everyone. The land requires raining for being moist, but the water does not require, but the rain is there also. It is so sufficient. It is on the hill also. Hill does not require rain. On the hill there is no production, nobody is going to produce grains, neither on the water. But it is so sufficient and liberal that it is on the water, on the hill, besides on the land. That is God's gift. God's gift is not for a particular person, individual. Atreya Ṛṣi: This Hare Kṛṣṇa is not only for one person, it is so free we’re offering it on the streets. Prabhupāda: Even for the children, they are taking part. The children also dance. The small children, not even one year, when there will be chanting, on the lap of the mother they are . . . every day we see. It doesn’t require any education, natural. Soul's function. As soon as there is soul, it will act, immediately. That is the difference. This is also meditation. Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, could you explain how soul acts to the mantra ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Atreya Ṛṣi: How the soul acts to the sound vibration? Prabhupāda: Because it is spiritual vibration and soul is spirit, so at once it is attracted on the same level, same platform. (pause) Guest (2): How do you meditate, how . . .? Do you just say, do you just sit and say Hare Kṛṣṇa, or do you do it all the time? Prabhupāda: You have not seen our class in the morning? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: You come and you see how we do it, meditate. Practically you will see how our meditation is going on. Come between seven and eight, you will find in the morning. Devotee (2): Earlier also we are chanting japa . Prabhupāda: Early also. If not early, you can come between seven and eight. Give them a little prasāda . Devotee (2): There is some for them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Would you like me to get some for them? There is some saved for them. Atreya Ṛṣi: There is some saved. Devotee (2): Also I’ll show Terry Stevens your books also. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): I’ll show him your books also. Prabhupāda: So. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (1): I should have spoken sooner, I suppose, but I didn’t know if I should. How does Lord Jesus fit in, that was my main problem all along, because I'm so strongly Catholic and yet I’ve been drawn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness too, and I can't seem to reconcile them. I’ve talked to the devotees and yet I can't get them completely set . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: She would like to know how Lord Jesus would fit into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Lord Jesus says that you love God. We love God, that's all. Guest (1): Yes, but there are such different rules in the two. Prabhupāda: That is not very important thing. Actually if you have learned to love God, that is wanted. (break) . . . by Lord Jesus Christ is different from the standard of our perception of lord of God, love of Godhead. Love of Godhead is one. God is one and how to love Him, that is also one. Now, we have to see by the result. *Just like two physicians are there. One physician is over*-crowded, another physician is counting the contents of his table. So people go to that physician who is curing very quickly, but both of them are physician. One may be very experienced, another may be not very experienced. But somehow or other one is crowded, another is not crowded. Similarly, both Christian religion or this Vedic religion is instructing people love of Godhead. Now you have to see where is the best result. That's it. Then you judge yourself. But we want that you love God. Either by this method or that method, the method is nothing. End justifies the means. If the end is that actually you have developed your love of God, then the means which you have adopted, that is alright. And if the end is not very good, then the means is also not good. So you have to judge yourself whether you are developing love for God or love for dog. Then you can judge. Why you are asking me? Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me? You can judge. Guest (1): Oh. Well, because I have been very confused for the last eight months. Prabhupāda: Why should you be confused? If you really want to love God, so you can test yourself whether I'm increasing my love of God or increasing love of dog. People are generally in love of dog, especially in your country. Everyone has got a pet dog. And we are preaching not dog, but God, that is the difference. So you have to test yourself whether I am loving God or loving dog. That's all. And our point of view is that you love God, never mind whatever the means, whether Christian means or Jewish means or any means, Hindu means, Muslim means, it doesn’t matter. You love God, that's all. Somehow or other you come to that point. That is our missionary activities. We are teaching, "Love God". Guest (1): Yes, but what confuses me is some of them . . . well, no, I shouldn’t put it that way. To love God in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you have to chant and follow the four regulative principles and then have association, which practically means living in a temple. Well, I'm from Fresno and there is no temple, so it's very difficult. Prabhupāda: So why don’t you come to the temple? Live near the temple. Guest (1): (laughs) I tried that. Prabhupāda: You live near the temple if you cannot live with us. Guest (1): Uh huh. Prabhupāda: Take an apartment near the temple, join temple service, and you will learn everything automatically. You live fortnight with us, you will love God. Fortnight, give a try, fortnight. Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fortnight one, fifteen days. You live with us, and you will learn how to love God. Guest (1): I did that, your Grace, for three weeks I did. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very easy. Just like to love God is not difficult because that is natural. Just like father and the son or mother and the son, the love is already there, fixed up. The son may forget, but the mother does not forget. But as soon as the mother and son comes together, the original love revives immediately. *Similarly, love of Godhead is natural. So by somehow or other you come near God, then you again love God. That is the purpose of temple. There is God, Radha*-Kṛṣṇa, living. We are giving Him everything, we are dressing Him, we are bathing Him, cleansing, we are praying, we are offering obeisances, in this way, the original love of God awakens. By this process. "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer Me your obeisances, and you become God conscious." Very easy. It doesn't require much education, Ph.D. title, nothing. So you can try for a fortnight here. If you like, you can live with us. Or you come. Now give them little prasāda . Devotee: Jaya , Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 25, 1972, Los Angeles (garden conversation) Devotee (1): Is there any questions? Atreya Ṛṣi: I have a question. Kaṁsa's attitude, he's a demon, and when a daughter is born, he first changes his mind. Throughout this story Kaṁsa changes his mind several times back and forth. *Similarly, Vasudeva, when Kaṁsa is favorable towards him, and also Yaśodā, they both change and excuse their brother and brother*-in-law. How is this similarity, the change of attitude? Prabhupāda: Who ex . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: They excused Kaṁsa. (break) . . . they forgave him when Kaṁsa decided not to kill the daughter. Prabhupāda: No? Atreya Ṛṣi: The devotee . . . Prabhupāda: He, he killed the daughter. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the daughter slipped up there in the sky. (break) He could not kill the daughter. He attempted, but he could not. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, was Kaṁsa . . . was he aware all of this time that he was a devotee? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Was he aware this entire time that he was a devotee? He said that . . . I remember reading that he was a devotee. Prabhupāda: Whatever he might be, nobody remembers what he was in his past life. Lady devotee: Is the girl child, is that Subhadrā? Devotee (1): Talk louder. Lady devotee: Is the girl child, is that Subhadrā? Devotee (1): Was the girl child . . .? Devotee: (explaining) The female child, was that Subhadrā? Prabhupāda: No, Durgā. She was Bhadrā, not Subhadrā. Bhadrā is material energy, and Subhadrā is spiritual energy. Devotee (3): Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons and shorten their duration of life? Devotee (1): Can you say it louder? Devotee (3): Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons and shorten the duration of life? Atreya Ṛṣi: (explaining) Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons? Prabhupāda: Answer. You answer. Answer this question, anyone. Devotee (4): The glories, all of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, they are such that . . . Prabhupāda: His question is different. Devotee (4): What is it? Devotee (3): Why did the demons come and harass the saintly persons and shorten their life? Devotee (4): Which . . . in what relationship? Where . . . I'm not sure what it means . . . Devotee (3): The demons were sent by Kaṁsa to harass the saintly persons. Devotee (4): Yes, that's their purpose. Devotee (3): Why? Devotee (4): That . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: This material world, there are demons, and then there are saintly persons. This is the nature of the material world. And Kṛṣṇa comes. The demons want to forget Kṛṣṇa, and that's their job. Prabhupāda: Demons means who harass saintly persons. That is the definition of demon. Demons means one who harasses saintly persons and who does not believe in God. This is the definition of demon. So there is a class of men always who do not like saintly persons and do not believe in God. So they are demons. *Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke daiva āsura ( BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , asura; *demon and demigod. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayaḥ . Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are called demigods, and those who are opposite number, they are called demons. The whole world is full of demons; still there are little percent of them are devotees. Otherwise the material world is full of demons. Devotee: (in background) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to saṅkīrtana . Come join the saṅkīrtana party. Devotee (3): The demons' business is to harass the devotees? They do nothing else? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): The demons, they do nothing else except harass the devotees? Prabhupāda: Demons means who harasses devotee. That is demon. Anyone who harasses devotee, he is demon. Devotee (5): Is Rohiṇī also a wife of Vasudeva? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Atreya Ṛṣi: (explaining) Is Rohiṇī a wife of Vasudeva? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Atreya Ṛṣi: She is. Prabhupāda: So, Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and Subhadrā—there are different mothers, father one. Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, since the birth of Kṛṣṇa, in the past few thousand years there are many stories about different people, in Greek story, in literature, even the birth of Moses, which exemplify in some way or another stories of Kṛṣṇa. Is there any relation? Prabhupāda: There is . . . they have taken all these stories from *Purāṇas* . After all, these system, Greek civilization, they are within three thousand years. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's time is five thousand years. So there is possibility of taking these stories from Kṛṣṇa's life. The word Kristo is there in Greek dictionary. Kristo . And the meaning is "anointed face" or something like that. So Kṛṣṇa was known. And from Kristo the word Christ has come. That is explained in that Aquarian Gospel . So it appears that Kṛṣṇa was known. Formerly, all over the world the Vedic system was current. So Kṛṣṇa was known. Devotee: Prabhupāda, before Lord Caitanya, for instance from the period after Kṛṣṇa's birth up until the appearance of Lord Caitanya, what was, ah, what was the bona fide method for, ah . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . is current. Vedic . . . (indistinct) . . . is not new. Caitanya Mahāprabhu re*-introduced it with new vigor, that's all. Otherwise it is not new introduction. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ . Find out. Devotee (1): "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: So the chanting is long before Kṛṣṇa appeared. Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . all around. Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it again. It is not a new thing. Devotee: So up until Lord Caitanya it wasn't very widely known. Is that . . .? Prabhupāda: It was known, but He specifically propagated. The ācārya never introduce anything new. It is already there. But according to time, they take up the . . . just like doctor. A doctor, medical practitioner, he knows many medicines, but for a particular type of patient, he prescribes a medicine. It is not that the new medicine is invented for him. It is already there in the stock. But the experienced physician knows what kind of medicine will be suitable for this patient, so he gives that. It is like that. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). There is no other alternative. That means there are other alternatives, but they are not active. So all these methods are already there, but this chanting method is especially suitable for this time. That is the special introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Lady devotee (2): When did Nārada Muni come with the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra to this planet? And how is that . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): When Nārada Muni came to this planet and introduced the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: I said there is no question of introduction. It is already there. Lady devotee (2): It's always . . . Prabhupāda: Always there. Just like in the . . . (break) Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ (BG 9.14). So when Kṛṣṇa says satataṁ , satataṁ means always. What is the meaning of satataṁ ? Devotee (1): "Always." Prabhupāda: Always. Just like the sun is always there in the sky, but it appears in the morning. It is not that morning creates the sun. The sun is already there. You'll see in the morning, that's all. Lady devotee (2): So Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , is it new to us as living entities? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): Is it new to us as living entities? Prabhupāda: New? No. Lady devotee (2): So we have known it always. Prabhupāda: It is always existing, that I've explained. Nothing is new. Atreya Ṛṣi: For us as well, we knew it? We knew the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: That is up to you. How can I say it? (laughs) So many things there are. Whether you knew or not knew, I cannot say. (chuckles) Lady devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Vasudeva was talking to Nanda Mahārāja, he said we're like seaweed. We come together . . . they come together in the ocean, and then we become separated after a while. So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness sometimes it is said that we are packed up tight in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these other devo . . . Prabhupāda: That example is for material world. In the material world . . . just like we are assembled here. Every one of us had our father, mother, family, but where are those families? Just like my family is in India, your family somewhere else. So we are scattered. So that example is given. Just like in the river some straws gather together, again another wave comes and it is all scattered. We are similarly, in the ocean of time, we are simply gathering and sometimes dispersing, that's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: In *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* there is a very beautiful example: "As by the sweet will of the player the playthings are put together and again dispersed . . ." Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. Atreya Ṛṣi: ". . . again by the sweet will of the Lord . . ." Prabhupāda: Nothing is settled up here in this material world. But spiritual world everything is settled up. (Prabhupāda says something indistinct about the water in a fountain) Devotee (1): There is no circulation. There should be some sort of pump to circulate the water filter it. It's just stagnant, just sitting there. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is very much like Muslim countries. In the Muslim countries they keep some water, because Hazrat Muhammad said that if water is this long or this wide, it's clean. So they do not understand. They keep that much water in their homes and they think it's clean, and they always bathe in it, and it stinks, it smells. But they still think it is clean, because Muhammad said that much water is clean, purifying. Like in every home in Iran, in the Muslim countries, they have a little water like this which is green and smelly, and they go and drink it. Prabhupāda: Rotten water, they drink? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, because in the Koran Muhammad says that . . . because in Arabia there was no water, so Muhammad explained that if you come across some water which is this big, you should take a bath; it's cleansing. Because the Arabs used to take no bath. So Muhammad encouraged taking baths and cleanliness to his disciples. But now today's disciples don't understand that. There is plenty of water, but they keep some water in their home like that just to take bath. And it smells, but they wouldn't . . . they would consider nonbelievers dirty. If you come to their home, they would want you to wash in there first, if you don't believe in . . . (laughter) Lady devotee (2): Prabhupada many Kṛṣṇa's have the same type of attitude towards religion. How is it that we can right thing to do . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Answer. Devotee (1): What is their attitude? Devotee: (in background) Haribol , prabhus . Lady devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . they think they are following Christianity. They think they are following the teachings of Christ, but they really aren't. They really don't even know what the teachings of Christ are. Atreya Ṛṣi: So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Then they're not Christians. Lady devotee (2): Yes, but they say, you know that, "I'm already Christian. I already have my religion, so how is it . . . (indistinct) . . ." Devotee (1): Let them know that we're not against their religion and that we're not, not Christians. Tell them, "Yes, that's good. But your love of God can always increase, you know." Atreya Ṛṣi: The fact is . . . Devotee (1): You only scare them away by making them think that we're another team, you know. There's no set . . . there's no set way you're gonna do it. You've got to just use your intelligence with each case. Each person's different. But just don't scare them. Try to get them to come, you know, eat prasādam . (laughs) Atreya Ṛṣi: But factually we are the only Christians. They are not Christian, because they do not . . . Devotee (1): That's what we have to understand. Atreya Ṛṣi: And we have to show them. Devotee (1): We have to actually understand that they are not actually Christians. If we think that they are Christians, see, then we're falling into their illusion. They're thinking that they are Christians, but actually . . . the real meaning of Christian means one who is serving God. He's christened; he's a medium. Prabhupāda: Christian, according to that Aquarian Gospel , Christian means Kristoian. Real Christian means Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇian. Not Christian but Kṛṣṇian. They are Christian, real Christian. Actually Christian is a diverted word from Kṛṣṇian . This is the fact. The Kṛṣṇian by perverted form is Christian . There is authority in the Aquarian Gospel. Actually we are . . . the original word is Kṛṣṇian or Kristian . Kristoian or Kristo . The word is coming. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Christ has come from the word Kristo , and Kristo is a perverted word of Kṛṣṇa . So actually the word is coming from Kristo , and Kristo is Kṛṣṇa . Even in India still, Kṛṣṇa, one's name is Kṛṣṇa, he is called Kristo. My younger brother was named Kṛṣṇa. So we were calling him Kristo, Kristo. That is common. So from Kristo , Christ has come. Christo . From Kristo—Christo ; from Christo —Christian. Devotee (1): Under the heading of Christian there are still the two classes of men, demons and devotees. So anyone who is actually sincere about learning to love God, if we simply present Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them they'll take it, eventually. And if they are a demon, then they won't take it. Then we must avoid them. If somebody is so demoniac that when we preach to them they won't accept, then we just have to move on. But if someone is really sincerely trying to follow Lord Jesus, then there won't be anything he can do but come. Atreya Ṛṣi: Lord Caitanya and Śrīla Prabhupāda are so merciful that they have picked up many demons, made devotees. Devotee: Also possible, but . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when Vasudeva, ah, carried child Kṛṣṇa to Mother Yaśodā's house, why didn't he make recognized to Mother Yaśodā about the change of the child, the two children? Prabhupāda: She was sleeping. (laughter) He (she) did not know. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Your answer is there. (laughter) It is stated that out of child labor she was fatigued, and she was sleeping. So simply changed. Sometimes in hospital they change. You know that? In hospital many babies are born. So doctors take bribe, they change, male child into female. One who has given male child, and by trick they change. Devotee: Is that in India or America, or where? Prabhupāda: In India. In America maybe. I do not know. So this male child, female child changing is a long practice. It was the desire of Kṛṣṇa to come to Yaśodā. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! Prabhupāda: It is the supreme arrangement. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! Prabhupāda: Childhood pastime of all parents, it is very pleasing. So Mother Yaśodā was fortunate that she could enjoy the childhood pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, whereas Devakī, although Kṛṣṇa was her real son, she could not enjoy. Therefore Mother Yaśodā is considered more fortunate than Devakī. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! (end) Conversation -- June 25, 1972, Los Angeles (garden conversation) Devotee (1): Is there any questions? Atreya Ṛṣi: I have a question. Kaṁsa's attitude, he's a demon, and when a daughter is born, he first changes his mind. Throughout this story Kaṁsa changes his mind several times back and forth. *Similarly, Vasudeva, when Kaṁsa is favorable towards him, and also Yaśodā, they both change and excuse their brother and brother*-in-law. How is this similarity, the change of attitude? Prabhupāda: Who ex . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: They excused Kaṁsa. (break) . . . they forgave him when Kaṁsa decided not to kill the daughter. Prabhupāda: No? Atreya Ṛṣi: The devotee . . . Prabhupāda: He, he killed the daughter. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the daughter slipped up there in the sky. (break) He could not kill the daughter. He attempted, but he could not. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, was Kaṁsa . . . was he aware all of this time that he was a devotee? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Was he aware this entire time that he was a devotee? He said that . . . I remember reading that he was a devotee. Prabhupāda: Whatever he might be, nobody remembers what he was in his past life. Lady devotee: Is the girl child, is that Subhadrā? Devotee (1): Talk louder. Lady devotee: Is the girl child, is that Subhadrā? Devotee (1): Was the girl child . . .? Devotee: (explaining) The female child, was that Subhadrā? Prabhupāda: No, Durgā. She was Bhadrā, not Subhadrā. Bhadrā is material energy, and Subhadrā is spiritual energy. Devotee (3): Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons and shorten their duration of life? Devotee (1): Can you say it louder? Devotee (3): Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons and shorten the duration of life? Atreya Ṛṣi: (explaining) Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons? Prabhupāda: Answer. You answer. Answer this question, anyone. Devotee (4): The glories, all of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, they are such that . . . Prabhupāda: His question is different. Devotee (4): What is it? Devotee (3): Why did the demons come and harass the saintly persons and shorten their life? Devotee (4): Which . . . in what relationship? Where . . . I'm not sure what it means . . . Devotee (3): The demons were sent by Kaṁsa to harass the saintly persons. Devotee (4): Yes, that's their purpose. Devotee (3): Why? Devotee (4): That . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: This material world, there are demons, and then there are saintly persons. This is the nature of the material world. And Kṛṣṇa comes. The demons want to forget Kṛṣṇa, and that's their job. Prabhupāda: Demons means who harass saintly persons. That is the definition of demon. Demons means one who harasses saintly persons and who does not believe in God. This is the definition of demon. So there is a class of men always who do not like saintly persons and do not believe in God. So they are demons. *Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke daiva āsura ( BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , asura; *demon and demigod. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayaḥ . Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are called demigods, and those who are opposite number, they are called demons. The whole world is full of demons; still there are little percent of them are devotees. Otherwise the material world is full of demons. Devotee: (in background) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to saṅkīrtana . Come join the saṅkīrtana party. Devotee (3): The demons' business is to harass the devotees? They do nothing else? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): The demons, they do nothing else except harass the devotees? Prabhupāda: Demons means who harasses devotee. That is demon. Anyone who harasses devotee, he is demon. Devotee (5): Is Rohiṇī also a wife of Vasudeva? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Atreya Ṛṣi: (explaining) Is Rohiṇī a wife of Vasudeva? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Atreya Ṛṣi: She is. Prabhupāda: So, Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and Subhadrā—there are different mothers, father one. Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, since the birth of Kṛṣṇa, in the past few thousand years there are many stories about different people, in Greek story, in literature, even the birth of Moses, which exemplify in some way or another stories of Kṛṣṇa. Is there any relation? Prabhupāda: There is . . . they have taken all these stories from *Purāṇas* . After all, these system, Greek civilization, they are within three thousand years. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's time is five thousand years. So there is possibility of taking these stories from Kṛṣṇa's life. The word Kristo is there in Greek dictionary. Kristo . And the meaning is "anointed face" or something like that. So Kṛṣṇa was known. And from Kristo the word Christ has come. That is explained in that Aquarian Gospel . So it appears that Kṛṣṇa was known. Formerly, all over the world the Vedic system was current. So Kṛṣṇa was known. Devotee: Prabhupāda, before Lord Caitanya, for instance from the period after Kṛṣṇa's birth up until the appearance of Lord Caitanya, what was, ah, what was the bona fide method for, ah . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . is current. Vedic . . . (indistinct) . . . is not new. Caitanya Mahāprabhu re*-introduced it with new vigor, that's all. Otherwise it is not new introduction. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ . Find out. Devotee (1): "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: So the chanting is long before Kṛṣṇa appeared. Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . all around. Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it again. It is not a new thing. Devotee: So up until Lord Caitanya it wasn't very widely known. Is that . . .? Prabhupāda: It was known, but He specifically propagated. The ācārya never introduce anything new. It is already there. But according to time, they take up the . . . just like doctor. A doctor, medical practitioner, he knows many medicines, but for a particular type of patient, he prescribes a medicine. It is not that the new medicine is invented for him. It is already there in the stock. But the experienced physician knows what kind of medicine will be suitable for this patient, so he gives that. It is like that. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). There is no other alternative. That means there are other alternatives, but they are not active. So all these methods are already there, but this chanting method is especially suitable for this time. That is the special introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Lady devotee (2): When did Nārada Muni come with the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra to this planet? And how is that . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): When Nārada Muni came to this planet and introduced the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: I said there is no question of introduction. It is already there. Lady devotee (2): It's always . . . Prabhupāda: Always there. Just like in the . . . (break) Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ (BG 9.14). So when Kṛṣṇa says satataṁ , satataṁ means always. What is the meaning of satataṁ ? Devotee (1): "Always." Prabhupāda: Always. Just like the sun is always there in the sky, but it appears in the morning. It is not that morning creates the sun. The sun is already there. You'll see in the morning, that's all. Lady devotee (2): So Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , is it new to us as living entities? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): Is it new to us as living entities? Prabhupāda: New? No. Lady devotee (2): So we have known it always. Prabhupāda: It is always existing, that I've explained. Nothing is new. Atreya Ṛṣi: For us as well, we knew it? We knew the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: That is up to you. How can I say it? (laughs) So many things there are. Whether you knew or not knew, I cannot say. (chuckles) Lady devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Vasudeva was talking to Nanda Mahārāja, he said we're like seaweed. We come together . . . they come together in the ocean, and then we become separated after a while. So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness sometimes it is said that we are packed up tight in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these other devo . . . Prabhupāda: That example is for material world. In the material world . . . just like we are assembled here. Every one of us had our father, mother, family, but where are those families? Just like my family is in India, your family somewhere else. So we are scattered. So that example is given. Just like in the river some straws gather together, again another wave comes and it is all scattered. We are similarly, in the ocean of time, we are simply gathering and sometimes dispersing, that's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: In *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* there is a very beautiful example: "As by the sweet will of the player the playthings are put together and again dispersed . . ." Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. Atreya Ṛṣi: ". . . again by the sweet will of the Lord . . ." Prabhupāda: Nothing is settled up here in this material world. But spiritual world everything is settled up. (Prabhupāda says something indistinct about the water in a fountain) Devotee (1): There is no circulation. There should be some sort of pump to circulate the water filter it. It's just stagnant, just sitting there. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is very much like Muslim countries. In the Muslim countries they keep some water, because Hazrat Muhammad said that if water is this long or this wide, it's clean. So they do not understand. They keep that much water in their homes and they think it's clean, and they always bathe in it, and it stinks, it smells. But they still think it is clean, because Muhammad said that much water is clean, purifying. Like in every home in Iran, in the Muslim countries, they have a little water like this which is green and smelly, and they go and drink it. Prabhupāda: Rotten water, they drink? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, because in the Koran Muhammad says that . . . because in Arabia there was no water, so Muhammad explained that if you come across some water which is this big, you should take a bath; it's cleansing. Because the Arabs used to take no bath. So Muhammad encouraged taking baths and cleanliness to his disciples. But now today's disciples don't understand that. There is plenty of water, but they keep some water in their home like that just to take bath. And it smells, but they wouldn't . . . they would consider nonbelievers dirty. If you come to their home, they would want you to wash in there first, if you don't believe in . . . (laughter) Lady devotee (2): Prabhupada many Kṛṣṇa's have the same type of attitude towards religion. How is it that we can right thing to do . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Answer. Devotee (1): What is their attitude? Devotee: (in background) Haribol , prabhus . Lady devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . they think they are following Christianity. They think they are following the teachings of Christ, but they really aren't. They really don't even know what the teachings of Christ are. Atreya Ṛṣi: So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Then they're not Christians. Lady devotee (2): Yes, but they say, you know that, "I'm already Christian. I already have my religion, so how is it . . . (indistinct) . . ." Devotee (1): Let them know that we're not against their religion and that we're not, not Christians. Tell them, "Yes, that's good. But your love of God can always increase, you know." Atreya Ṛṣi: The fact is . . . Devotee (1): You only scare them away by making them think that we're another team, you know. There's no set . . . there's no set way you're gonna do it. You've got to just use your intelligence with each case. Each person's different. But just don't scare them. Try to get them to come, you know, eat prasādam . (laughs) Atreya Ṛṣi: But factually we are the only Christians. They are not Christian, because they do not . . . Devotee (1): That's what we have to understand. Atreya Ṛṣi: And we have to show them. Devotee (1): We have to actually understand that they are not actually Christians. If we think that they are Christians, see, then we're falling into their illusion. They're thinking that they are Christians, but actually . . . the real meaning of Christian means one who is serving God. He's christened; he's a medium. Prabhupāda: Christian, according to that Aquarian Gospel , Christian means Kristoian. Real Christian means Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇian. Not Christian but Kṛṣṇian. They are Christian, real Christian. Actually Christian is a diverted word from Kṛṣṇian . This is the fact. The Kṛṣṇian by perverted form is Christian . There is authority in the Aquarian Gospel. Actually we are . . . the original word is Kṛṣṇian or Kristian . Kristoian or Kristo . The word is coming. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Christ has come from the word Kristo , and Kristo is a perverted word of Kṛṣṇa . So actually the word is coming from Kristo , and Kristo is Kṛṣṇa . Even in India still, Kṛṣṇa, one's name is Kṛṣṇa, he is called Kristo. My younger brother was named Kṛṣṇa. So we were calling him Kristo, Kristo. That is common. So from Kristo , Christ has come. Christo . From Kristo—Christo ; from Christo —Christian. Devotee (1): Under the heading of Christian there are still the two classes of men, demons and devotees. So anyone who is actually sincere about learning to love God, if we simply present Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them they'll take it, eventually. And if they are a demon, then they won't take it. Then we must avoid them. If somebody is so demoniac that when we preach to them they won't accept, then we just have to move on. But if someone is really sincerely trying to follow Lord Jesus, then there won't be anything he can do but come. Atreya Ṛṣi: Lord Caitanya and Śrīla Prabhupāda are so merciful that they have picked up many demons, made devotees. Devotee: Also possible, but . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when Vasudeva, ah, carried child Kṛṣṇa to Mother Yaśodā's house, why didn't he make recognized to Mother Yaśodā about the change of the child, the two children? Prabhupāda: She was sleeping. (laughter) He (she) did not know. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Your answer is there. (laughter) It is stated that out of child labor she was fatigued, and she was sleeping. So simply changed. Sometimes in hospital they change. You know that? In hospital many babies are born. So doctors take bribe, they change, male child into female. One who has given male child, and by trick they change. Devotee: Is that in India or America, or where? Prabhupāda: In India. In America maybe. I do not know. So this male child, female child changing is a long practice. It was the desire of Kṛṣṇa to come to Yaśodā. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! Prabhupāda: It is the supreme arrangement. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! Prabhupāda: Childhood pastime of all parents, it is very pleasing. So Mother Yaśodā was fortunate that she could enjoy the childhood pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, whereas Devakī, although Kṛṣṇa was her real son, she could not enjoy. Therefore Mother Yaśodā is considered more fortunate than Devakī. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! (end) Conversation -- June 26, 1972, Los Angeles (garden conversation with Professor Kulshrestha) Prabhupāda: . . . achedyam . These are the . . . achedya , can be cut into pieces . . . (indistinct) . . . cannot be burned. Now the physist, chemist, they have got experience, everything burns, everything is melted; therefore it is metaphysical. What is metaphysical? What is the meaning of "meta"? Devotee: "Under." Prabhupāda: Huh? Metaphysics. Atreya Ṛṣi: Is it "above"? Prabhupāda: Physics and metaphysics. What is this "meta"? Atreya Ṛṣi: Beyond physics. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate . Scientists, physists, philosophers, after all, they will die. So knowledge of physics and chemistry cannot save you. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya says bhaja govindaṁ : "Just become devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa." *Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi ( BG 18.66). There are many instances, great saintly persons have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lord Caitanya says, "Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Yāre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). So we should have to follow the big personalities. Why should we hesitate? *(pause) By this carriage where Tulasī*-devī goes? Devotee (1): I don't know. Devotee (2): They take her into the temple. Prabhupāda: Within the . . . Devotee (1): Into the temple? (pause) Prabhupāda: Scientists are also becoming interested. Here is a statement. Śyāmasundara: Yes, he told me two scientists want to come to see you, but they can't come tomorrow night, and the next night you'll be gone. Prabhupāda: What about the other scientists who came? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I didn't see them. Devotee (1): I think American scientists would be easier to talk to. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, these are American scientists, physists. Devotee (1): I think Americans scientists will be easier to talk to. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): ‘Cause they don't think they know anything about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They are untouched. Our Indian, they are touched and polluted. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: But most of them, most of the scientists, people in the universities and schools, they are exposed to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have not been . . . they have not direct contact with devotees, but they have seen the devotees and so on, in most . . . so they ask me, "How do I call these people? 'Hare Kṛṣṇa' or . . .?" I say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa." They have seen our devotees come in the schools and campuses, chanting. *Prabhupāda: Tulasī*-devī's growing nicely in this park. As soon as there is sincere devotion, Tulasī will grow. In your . . . (indistinct) . . . wonderful, Tulasī, due to Govinda dāsī's devotion. Simply for that tulasī plant I want to remain. It is so nice. They have grown anywhere else, or simply there? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: In the other islands we also have big. In Maui we have four that are . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: . . . big. Prabhupāda: It will sanctify the whole place. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How big was that? Devotee (1): Six feet tall. Five and a half, six feet tall, five feet wide. Prabhupāda: That is in Hawaii, er, here? Devotee (1): Maui? Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Honolulu. Honolulu. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: The ones in Honolulu are almost that big. Their trunks are like this big. The trunks. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How many years? Prabhupāda: About three years. Two years, not more than that. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: In the beginning there was . . . hard, trouble. There are so many. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're in the ground outside. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Some madman cut them down, the big ones? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: He cut a few, but he couldn't kill them. He cut a few, cut some limbs. They moved out. Those neighbors have finally left. They're lucky. They almost . . . (break) Prabhupāda: How long you are here? Professor Kulshrestha: I came here September, Swāmījī, and . . . Prabhupāda: Last September? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What you are doing? Professor Kulshrestha: I've come for some research work here. Prabhupāda: Oh. ( japa ) Kṛṣṇa is very kind He has come here. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Kṛṣṇa's very kind, and you are here. You have got His blessings here. Prabhupāda: Here is Tulasī. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the sacred plant. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) (break) . . . saba mithyā . This is Bengali. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-nāma . . . you understand Bengali? Professor Kulshrestha: Very well, Swāmījī. Very well, yes. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇa*-nāma karo bhāi āra saba mithyā , palāibe patha naya ya mache kichu . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Take to Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Don't neglect. Anything else, that is all nonsense. This is the only essence of life. If you want to avoid it, then Yamarāja, the superintendent of death, will not excuse. Palāibe patha naya. What is your subject matter of research? Professor Kulshrestha: My subject matter of research is Indians, see, their emigration from India and the assimilation various countries, you see. And message of India, which is spreading around the world. Prabhupāda: So you are taking an interest in our . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, Swāmījī. I've been here quite frequently. And I've been actually waiting for you to come. And as Lord Kṛṣṇa wills, you see . . . well, yesterday one of your disciples went to my place of his own, you see, and told me of it, you see? It is Lord who wished to see and who desired it to see. Prabhupāda: So you are deputed by government? Professor Kulshrestha: No. You see, I am a retired professor from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Professor Kulshrestha: And on my own, you see. Prabhupāda: Government is not interested. Professor Kulshrestha: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . they're assimilating this culture very nicely. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. I want to talk to you for some time on this topic, actually. Prabhupāda: You can talk now. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Kulshrestha: 'Cause I have worked, you see, from 1949 to 1952. I was a professor in the University of London, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Then, you see, that was almost the beginning of my career. You know some . . . (indistinct) . . . was there in the university. And I was working in the university at the time. And well . . . Prabhupāda: London University, when you were there? Professor Kulshrestha: '49 to '52. Prabhupāda: Oh. We have got our temple near London University. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Seven Bury Place. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: London University, that is Russell district? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Russell Street, yes. Russell Square, Russell Street. Prabhupāda: There is a Square, Bedford? Professor Kulshrestha: Bedford Square, yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: Another Square, Boomsbury? Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury. Professor Kulshrestha: Bloomsbury, yes. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. And the museum . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: The museum is just one block after. Professor Kulshrestha: I see. Prabhupāda: Bury Place, then you must know. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So in the beginning of . . . what is that street? Śyāmasundara: Montague Street? Prabhupāda: No, no. That main street . . . Śyāmasundara: Oxford Street? Prabhupāda: Oxford that side. Bloomsbury . . . Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury Way. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury, huh? Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury Way. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. Bloomsbury. From Bloomsbury, Bury Place is there on the corner, exactly on the corner in the beginning. It is a very important place. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, it is a very thick of the town area. Thick of the town area. Prabhupāda: So all Indians, Englishmen, they come to our temple. Yes Professor Kulshrestha: You have brought the wonderful message in the wonderful way, you see. Really. And what do you need is further expansion. The message should spread out. Prabhupāda: It is spreading. These boys are spreading. Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, they're working very hard. Yes, yes, yes. They're working very hard. Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: They're all qualified. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. And I have, believe, seen some of the books now you are mentioned, but you are mentioned Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters. You see? They often mention you "Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters," you see, "those who are recite Hare Kṛṣṇa," like that. Prabhupāda: We have published so many books. Big books. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know. No, English authors, other authors have mentioned it, you see, when they talk about American society, when they talk of those society, religions, and various groups in the society, they talk of you as Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters. Prabhupāda: They say sometimes: "Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: What do they say? Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, all this crazy . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, it is a great message, you know. It is a great blessing, great message. Prabhupāda: Aye. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmījī has served, you see, mankind that way, you see. Prabhupāda: What about you? It is the message of Lord Caitanya . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know, I know. Prabhupāda: . . . He says paropakāra . He says: So actually we Indians, we have got a privilege for paropakāra , for doing paropakāra . We have got the privilege. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's word, that anyone who has taken birth as a human being in Bhāratavarṣa, he can fructify, he can make his life successful, fruitful, and do welfare activities for others. That means those who are Indians, they have got the advantage of Vedic culture, so they should assimilate this Vedic culture in life and go outside and spread this. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But we have neglected. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. That is what I was going to say, you see, this is message for all. And how many . . . Prabhupāda: People are so anxious to receive this message . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and our people, our government, callous. This is the misfortune. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our leaders, they don't care. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They say: "Throw away these Vedic knowledge in the water." I have heard, lecturing. Professor Kulshrestha: And they're having the trouble, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: They must have. Professor Kulshrestha: They're having trouble so deep. They're having troubles. Prabhupāda: Still India's so much fallen condition, still people are hankering after India's message. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have received letter from Cox and Kings… Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the traveling . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That many travelers, they're very much inquisitive to know about India's spiritual message, whether we can take care of them. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They've written us. And they are preparing . . . we are constructing a temple in Vṛndāvana, in Māyāpura, in Bombay also to receive these tourists and give them . . . we are giving here also the same thing. So we are arranging, but we are not getting full support, either from government. Public, Indians, they are giving little support, but they cannot send their money. This government has got a cultural department . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that they'll send some dancers. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Guest: We have to pay the taxes . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: We have to pay the taxes if we belong to religious group, and we don't have to pay if we belong to the national group. There are the taxes like that. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, taxes, yes. Guest: If you donate any money to a religion, then you have to pay taxes. But if you pay, donate any money to a national activity, then you need not to pay any taxes for that. Professor Kulshrestha: Either for religions not national? (laughter) Guest: Just religion is like, that because Nehru was a nonreligious person at that time. Seventeen years. He didn't believe in God. Prabhupāda: But this is not a religion, this is a culture. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Professor Kulshrestha: And what is culture? Culture has the full . . . (indistinct) . . . aspect, and religion is the most important one. Prabhupāda: Our culture, our Vedic culture, is on religion, on God consciousness, everything. The whole social structure, political structure, philosophical structure, scientific structure, everything is aiming on Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūraya . Viṣṇu, God. And in the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it is said: *So our cultural aim, Vedic cultural aim, is tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ . How to satisfy Him. But they do not know about Viṣṇu. They have forgotten Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ (SB 7.5.31). *Our self*-interest is there in Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ . These foolish men, they do not know. Durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are uselessly hoping that they will be able to adjust things by material advancement. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: That is their mistake. So*-called scientists, so-called religion that, "We shall make you happy. We are discovering now new methods, new interpretation." That will not . . . that will not help. Professor Kulshrestha: The rate of those persons who are having blood pressure and such diseases, Swāmījī, is rising like anything in America. Why? Because they are going away from God, you see. Prabhupāda: Anxiety. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, anxiety. Prabhupāda: Blood pressure is a disease of . . .? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Just anxiety. Prabhupāda: And anxiety is the material disease. Professor Kulshrestha: That's right. Prabhupāda: That is not new; it is always. Prahlāda Mahārāja explained this disease to his father. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: He asked from his son, "What you have learned, best thing, explain." So he said: This is samudvigna , anxiety. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, Prahlāda Mahārāja said: "In my opinion," tat sādhu manye "I think that this is the best thing." What is that? That "These people who are materially entrapped, they are full of anxieties." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: "So, for them it is better," hitva andha*-kūpaṁ . . . hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ. Just like one is fallen in the blind well, so this so-called materialistic way of life is just like one man fallen in the blind well. So one should give it up and take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. That is first class. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is preaching people, educating people, that "You take to Kṛṣṇa and everything will be solved." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is our message. Professor Kulshrestha: "Leave everything, come to My repose." Prabhupāda: There is no question of leaving. We cannot leave. Professor Kulshrestha: Leave is dedicate. Prabhupāda: Dedicate, yes. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that is the meaning. Prabhupāda: That, ah, this philosophy I was explaining this morning, that we don't leave anything. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like Māyāvādī philosophers, they are completely disinterested in material things. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . But we don't say mithyā . Why should we say mithyā ? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is God's creation. God is truth. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So He will create truth. Prabhupāda: So how . . . pūrṇasya . . . pūrṇat pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So it is not useless. So therefore we are utilizing everything for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa*-sambandha (Brs. 1.2.255). We dovetail everything in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is our philosophy. We don't say this is false. This is not false. How it can be false? It may be temporary— anitya , not false. We exactly use the word anitya . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anitya means temporary. This body is antavata . It is to be finished, exhausted, not inexhausted. But it is not false. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmījī, I get the feeling sometimes, after living here for so many months, that you can have a lot of money from this country, that's a fact, you see. The whole thing is you are so busy, you have got so many bases to look after, the entire universe, that sort of thing is yours . . . Prabhupāda: Universe is mine? Nobody cares for me. (laughs) Professor Kulshrestha: No, obviously I was joking, Swāmījī. They all remember you like anything. Prabhupāda: That is their kindness. But universe is Kṛṣṇa's, and we are Kṛṣṇa's servant, therefore we have right to say that it is our. (laughter) Īśāvāsyam . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem. Prabhupāda: Huh? Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem in America. Prabhupāda: No, we have no money problem. Actually we have no money problem. We are spending in all our branches about seventy hundred thousand dollars. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: That means in Indian exchange that is seven lakhs . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: And money is coming. We have no fixed income. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are depending on selling of the books, incense. There is no certainty. But we are maintaining. In this building we have to spend about . . . how many thousand dollars? Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month, about six thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: No, more than that. Śyāmasundara: Here it's ten. Prabhupāda: Ten thousand dollars. Similarly in New York. So all our branches are very expensive. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: This boy came to us, he contributed $38,000—whatever he had. So through somehow or other . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . coming. After all, money is Kṛṣṇa's. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Lakṣmī. Lakṣmī is Nārāyaṇa's property. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: When Nārāyaṇa is there, Lakṣmī must be there. Because Lakṣmī is not unfaithful. She cannot live alone. Rather, those who are materialistic persons, they are trying to capture Lakṣmī without Nārāyaṇa. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So it is cañcalā . (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is. Just like Rāvaṇa captured Lakṣmī. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Defied Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, and captured Lakṣmī. He thought, "I don't care for Nārāyaṇa; I care for Lakṣmī." The result was that he became vanquished. Life, property and everything—sons, daughters, all family. *So that is going to happen. If they do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the whole world will be finished like Rāvaṇa. That's a fact. The atom bomb is there already. So they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, otherwise they will be finished. Their so*-called science will not save. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What science will save? There was inundation in the eastern part. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similar things—the Pacific Ocean can finish all this California in a second. How the science can protect? Professor Kulshrestha: Science has got more means for destruction, I believe. Prabhupāda: They can use, that's all. Professor Kulshrestha: And what is destruction? Changing for. Prabhupāda: (sounds of lecture over loudspeaker) What is that? Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Broadcasting it over the speakers. Devotee (2): Right now? (laughter) Professor Kulshrestha: Competition. Prabhupāda: Our students are now speaking. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Some universities are . . . what is that? Don't stop that. Devotee: I am just going to have to turn the speaker down here; no one can hear. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . in the temple listening. Hare Kṛṣṇa? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The other day one scientist came. What is his name? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor of science. So he was speaking very, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Bombastically? (laughter) Prabhupāda: And after all, he admitted that we are controlled by the laws of nature. As laws . . . there must some controller of the laws of nature. That the scientists do not know. We said: "Yes, we know." That is the difference. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that's right. That's right. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. So our conclusion was that they do not know, but we know. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Everyone will admit that he is controlled by the laws of nature. Nobody can deny it. Now as soon as we speak of laws, there must be there, somebody, law*-giver. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Law cannot spring up automatically. As soon as there is law, there must be some law*-giver. And that information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *"Under My direction the laws of nature are working." In the Brahma*-saṁhitā also there is: *Durga is not working independently. She is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord. Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā mayādhyakṣeṇa : "Under My superintendence." So for us it is not difficult; we accepted Kṛṣṇa, and it is acting for practical purposes. Therefore, we are more than scientist. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They do not know who is behind these laws of nature, but we know. You may disagree; that is a different thing. But as we say: "We know," it is working practically. And you do not know, neither you have any program to know, neither you can . . . Professor Kulshrestha: That's right. Prabhupāda: Neither you have got the capacity to know. That is not possible. You cannot know. You are . . . just like a person who is suffering from some disease, he cannot diagnose himself. He cannot find out what is the cause of the disease. He must go to a physician who is not diseased. Even a medical man when he falls sick, he entrusts himself in the care of another physician. He does not treat himself. Therefore if you are under the clutches of māyā , you cannot understand what is beyond māyā . That is not possible. Māyā will not allow you to understand. Just like if you want to enter in a big man's house, there are so many doorkeepers. So you cannot go by force to see the proprietor. You have to remain under the control of the doorkeepers. They will not allow you unless you are submissive. Māyā will not allow. So this method, speculative method, to know the Supreme, will not be successful. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmī, these scientist don't know what is nature also. Ask them what is nature, and they can't tell you what is nature. They can't define nature, you see. Prabhupāda: What is . . . what is their definition? Here is a scientist. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nature . . . we also think nature is controlled by some supernatural power. Of course, there is somebody behind nature who is controlling the necessary self. Professor Kulshrestha: No, what is nature they can't see. What is nature. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nature is the energy of the Lord. Professor Kulshrestha: Those scientists who don't believe in God, you see. One scientist I met, to say, he asked me, "Can you give me empirical evidence of God?" I said: "You don't need one." He said: "No, I need to believe." I said: "The entire world is empirical evidence," you see? "You see a flower, you see a plant, you see a man, you see a . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is just evidence of God," you see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Kulshrestha: He said to say evidence of nature. I said: "Define me nature," you see. He said he couldn't define nature, you see. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving the chances . . . (aside) You have got the wood? You have brought the wood? Those who cannot understand what is God, Kṛṣṇa is giving them instances how one can understand God in their own ways. He said: "I am the taste in the water." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Now, you are scientist, you know how to create water. But the taste you cannot create. That is not possible. Now He says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ : "I am the light of the sun . . ." (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 26, 1972, Los Angeles (garden conversation with Professor Kulshrestha) Prabhupāda: . . . achedyam . These are the . . . achedya , can be cut into pieces . . . (indistinct) . . . cannot be burned. Now the physist, chemist, they have got experience, everything burns, everything is melted; therefore it is metaphysical. What is metaphysical? What is the meaning of "meta"? Devotee: "Under." Prabhupāda: Huh? Metaphysics. Atreya Ṛṣi: Is it "above"? Prabhupāda: Physics and metaphysics. What is this "meta"? Atreya Ṛṣi: Beyond physics. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate . Scientists, physists, philosophers, after all, they will die. So knowledge of physics and chemistry cannot save you. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya says bhaja govindaṁ : "Just become devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa." *Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi ( BG 18.66). There are many instances, great saintly persons have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lord Caitanya says, "Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Yāre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). So we should have to follow the big personalities. Why should we hesitate? *(pause) By this carriage where Tulasī*-devī goes? Devotee (1): I don't know. Devotee (2): They take her into the temple. Prabhupāda: Within the . . . Devotee (1): Into the temple? (pause) Prabhupāda: Scientists are also becoming interested. Here is a statement. Śyāmasundara: Yes, he told me two scientists want to come to see you, but they can't come tomorrow night, and the next night you'll be gone. Prabhupāda: What about the other scientists who came? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I didn't see them. Devotee (1): I think American scientists would be easier to talk to. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, these are American scientists, physists. Devotee (1): I think Americans scientists will be easier to talk to. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): ‘Cause they don't think they know anything about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They are untouched. Our Indian, they are touched and polluted. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: But most of them, most of the scientists, people in the universities and schools, they are exposed to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have not been . . . they have not direct contact with devotees, but they have seen the devotees and so on, in most . . . so they ask me, "How do I call these people? 'Hare Kṛṣṇa' or . . .?" I say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa." They have seen our devotees come in the schools and campuses, chanting. *Prabhupāda: Tulasī*-devī's growing nicely in this park. As soon as there is sincere devotion, Tulasī will grow. In your . . . (indistinct) . . . wonderful, Tulasī, due to Govinda dāsī's devotion. Simply for that tulasī plant I want to remain. It is so nice. They have grown anywhere else, or simply there? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: In the other islands we also have big. In Maui we have four that are . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: . . . big. Prabhupāda: It will sanctify the whole place. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How big was that? Devotee (1): Six feet tall. Five and a half, six feet tall, five feet wide. Prabhupāda: That is in Hawaii, er, here? Devotee (1): Maui? Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Honolulu. Honolulu. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: The ones in Honolulu are almost that big. Their trunks are like this big. The trunks. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How many years? Prabhupāda: About three years. Two years, not more than that. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: In the beginning there was . . . hard, trouble. There are so many. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're in the ground outside. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Some madman cut them down, the big ones? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: He cut a few, but he couldn't kill them. He cut a few, cut some limbs. They moved out. Those neighbors have finally left. They're lucky. They almost . . . (break) Prabhupāda: How long you are here? Professor Kulshrestha: I came here September, Swāmījī, and . . . Prabhupāda: Last September? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What you are doing? Professor Kulshrestha: I've come for some research work here. Prabhupāda: Oh. ( japa ) Kṛṣṇa is very kind He has come here. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Kṛṣṇa's very kind, and you are here. You have got His blessings here. Prabhupāda: Here is Tulasī. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the sacred plant. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) (break) . . . saba mithyā . This is Bengali. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-nāma . . . you understand Bengali? Professor Kulshrestha: Very well, Swāmījī. Very well, yes. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇa*-nāma karo bhāi āra saba mithyā , palāibe patha naya ya mache kichu . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Take to Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Don't neglect. Anything else, that is all nonsense. This is the only essence of life. If you want to avoid it, then Yamarāja, the superintendent of death, will not excuse. Palāibe patha naya. What is your subject matter of research? Professor Kulshrestha: My subject matter of research is Indians, see, their emigration from India and the assimilation various countries, you see. And message of India, which is spreading around the world. Prabhupāda: So you are taking an interest in our . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, Swāmījī. I've been here quite frequently. And I've been actually waiting for you to come. And as Lord Kṛṣṇa wills, you see . . . well, yesterday one of your disciples went to my place of his own, you see, and told me of it, you see? It is Lord who wished to see and who desired it to see. Prabhupāda: So you are deputed by government? Professor Kulshrestha: No. You see, I am a retired professor from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Professor Kulshrestha: And on my own, you see. Prabhupāda: Government is not interested. Professor Kulshrestha: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . they're assimilating this culture very nicely. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. I want to talk to you for some time on this topic, actually. Prabhupāda: You can talk now. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Kulshrestha: 'Cause I have worked, you see, from 1949 to 1952. I was a professor in the University of London, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Then, you see, that was almost the beginning of my career. You know some . . . (indistinct) . . . was there in the university. And I was working in the university at the time. And well . . . Prabhupāda: London University, when you were there? Professor Kulshrestha: '49 to '52. Prabhupāda: Oh. We have got our temple near London University. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Seven Bury Place. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: London University, that is Russell district? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Russell Street, yes. Russell Square, Russell Street. Prabhupāda: There is a Square, Bedford? Professor Kulshrestha: Bedford Square, yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: Another Square, Boomsbury? Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury. Professor Kulshrestha: Bloomsbury, yes. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. And the museum . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: The museum is just one block after. Professor Kulshrestha: I see. Prabhupāda: Bury Place, then you must know. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So in the beginning of . . . what is that street? Śyāmasundara: Montague Street? Prabhupāda: No, no. That main street . . . Śyāmasundara: Oxford Street? Prabhupāda: Oxford that side. Bloomsbury . . . Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury Way. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury, huh? Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury Way. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. Bloomsbury. From Bloomsbury, Bury Place is there on the corner, exactly on the corner in the beginning. It is a very important place. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, it is a very thick of the town area. Thick of the town area. Prabhupāda: So all Indians, Englishmen, they come to our temple. Yes Professor Kulshrestha: You have brought the wonderful message in the wonderful way, you see. Really. And what do you need is further expansion. The message should spread out. Prabhupāda: It is spreading. These boys are spreading. Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, they're working very hard. Yes, yes, yes. They're working very hard. Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: They're all qualified. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. And I have, believe, seen some of the books now you are mentioned, but you are mentioned Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters. You see? They often mention you "Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters," you see, "those who are recite Hare Kṛṣṇa," like that. Prabhupāda: We have published so many books. Big books. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know. No, English authors, other authors have mentioned it, you see, when they talk about American society, when they talk of those society, religions, and various groups in the society, they talk of you as Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters. Prabhupāda: They say sometimes: "Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: What do they say? Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, all this crazy . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, it is a great message, you know. It is a great blessing, great message. Prabhupāda: Aye. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmījī has served, you see, mankind that way, you see. Prabhupāda: What about you? It is the message of Lord Caitanya . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know, I know. Prabhupāda: . . . He says paropakāra . He says: So actually we Indians, we have got a privilege for paropakāra , for doing paropakāra . We have got the privilege. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's word, that anyone who has taken birth as a human being in Bhāratavarṣa, he can fructify, he can make his life successful, fruitful, and do welfare activities for others. That means those who are Indians, they have got the advantage of Vedic culture, so they should assimilate this Vedic culture in life and go outside and spread this. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But we have neglected. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. That is what I was going to say, you see, this is message for all. And how many . . . Prabhupāda: People are so anxious to receive this message . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and our people, our government, callous. This is the misfortune. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our leaders, they don't care. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They say: "Throw away these Vedic knowledge in the water." I have heard, lecturing. Professor Kulshrestha: And they're having the trouble, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: They must have. Professor Kulshrestha: They're having trouble so deep. They're having troubles. Prabhupāda: Still India's so much fallen condition, still people are hankering after India's message. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have received letter from Cox and Kings… Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the traveling . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That many travelers, they're very much inquisitive to know about India's spiritual message, whether we can take care of them. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They've written us. And they are preparing . . . we are constructing a temple in Vṛndāvana, in Māyāpura, in Bombay also to receive these tourists and give them . . . we are giving here also the same thing. So we are arranging, but we are not getting full support, either from government. Public, Indians, they are giving little support, but they cannot send their money. This government has got a cultural department . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that they'll send some dancers. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Guest: We have to pay the taxes . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: We have to pay the taxes if we belong to religious group, and we don't have to pay if we belong to the national group. There are the taxes like that. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, taxes, yes. Guest: If you donate any money to a religion, then you have to pay taxes. But if you pay, donate any money to a national activity, then you need not to pay any taxes for that. Professor Kulshrestha: Either for religions not national? (laughter) Guest: Just religion is like, that because Nehru was a nonreligious person at that time. Seventeen years. He didn't believe in God. Prabhupāda: But this is not a religion, this is a culture. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Professor Kulshrestha: And what is culture? Culture has the full . . . (indistinct) . . . aspect, and religion is the most important one. Prabhupāda: Our culture, our Vedic culture, is on religion, on God consciousness, everything. The whole social structure, political structure, philosophical structure, scientific structure, everything is aiming on Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūraya . Viṣṇu, God. And in the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it is said: *So our cultural aim, Vedic cultural aim, is tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ . How to satisfy Him. But they do not know about Viṣṇu. They have forgotten Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ (SB 7.5.31). *Our self*-interest is there in Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ . These foolish men, they do not know. Durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are uselessly hoping that they will be able to adjust things by material advancement. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: That is their mistake. So*-called scientists, so-called religion that, "We shall make you happy. We are discovering now new methods, new interpretation." That will not . . . that will not help. Professor Kulshrestha: The rate of those persons who are having blood pressure and such diseases, Swāmījī, is rising like anything in America. Why? Because they are going away from God, you see. Prabhupāda: Anxiety. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, anxiety. Prabhupāda: Blood pressure is a disease of . . .? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Just anxiety. Prabhupāda: And anxiety is the material disease. Professor Kulshrestha: That's right. Prabhupāda: That is not new; it is always. Prahlāda Mahārāja explained this disease to his father. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: He asked from his son, "What you have learned, best thing, explain." So he said: This is samudvigna , anxiety. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, Prahlāda Mahārāja said: "In my opinion," tat sādhu manye "I think that this is the best thing." What is that? That "These people who are materially entrapped, they are full of anxieties." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: "So, for them it is better," hitva andha*-kūpaṁ . . . hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ. Just like one is fallen in the blind well, so this so-called materialistic way of life is just like one man fallen in the blind well. So one should give it up and take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. That is first class. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is preaching people, educating people, that "You take to Kṛṣṇa and everything will be solved." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is our message. Professor Kulshrestha: "Leave everything, come to My repose." Prabhupāda: There is no question of leaving. We cannot leave. Professor Kulshrestha: Leave is dedicate. Prabhupāda: Dedicate, yes. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that is the meaning. Prabhupāda: That, ah, this philosophy I was explaining this morning, that we don't leave anything. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like Māyāvādī philosophers, they are completely disinterested in material things. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . But we don't say mithyā . Why should we say mithyā ? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is God's creation. God is truth. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So He will create truth. Prabhupāda: So how . . . pūrṇasya . . . pūrṇat pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So it is not useless. So therefore we are utilizing everything for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa*-sambandha (Brs. 1.2.255). We dovetail everything in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is our philosophy. We don't say this is false. This is not false. How it can be false? It may be temporary— anitya , not false. We exactly use the word anitya . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anitya means temporary. This body is antavata . It is to be finished, exhausted, not inexhausted. But it is not false. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmījī, I get the feeling sometimes, after living here for so many months, that you can have a lot of money from this country, that's a fact, you see. The whole thing is you are so busy, you have got so many bases to look after, the entire universe, that sort of thing is yours . . . Prabhupāda: Universe is mine? Nobody cares for me. (laughs) Professor Kulshrestha: No, obviously I was joking, Swāmījī. They all remember you like anything. Prabhupāda: That is their kindness. But universe is Kṛṣṇa's, and we are Kṛṣṇa's servant, therefore we have right to say that it is our. (laughter) Īśāvāsyam . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem. Prabhupāda: Huh? Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem in America. Prabhupāda: No, we have no money problem. Actually we have no money problem. We are spending in all our branches about seventy hundred thousand dollars. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: That means in Indian exchange that is seven lakhs . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: And money is coming. We have no fixed income. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are depending on selling of the books, incense. There is no certainty. But we are maintaining. In this building we have to spend about . . . how many thousand dollars? Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month, about six thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: No, more than that. Śyāmasundara: Here it's ten. Prabhupāda: Ten thousand dollars. Similarly in New York. So all our branches are very expensive. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: This boy came to us, he contributed $38,000—whatever he had. So through somehow or other . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . coming. After all, money is Kṛṣṇa's. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Lakṣmī. Lakṣmī is Nārāyaṇa's property. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: When Nārāyaṇa is there, Lakṣmī must be there. Because Lakṣmī is not unfaithful. She cannot live alone. Rather, those who are materialistic persons, they are trying to capture Lakṣmī without Nārāyaṇa. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So it is cañcalā . (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is. Just like Rāvaṇa captured Lakṣmī. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Defied Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, and captured Lakṣmī. He thought, "I don't care for Nārāyaṇa; I care for Lakṣmī." The result was that he became vanquished. Life, property and everything—sons, daughters, all family. *So that is going to happen. If they do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the whole world will be finished like Rāvaṇa. That's a fact. The atom bomb is there already. So they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, otherwise they will be finished. Their so*-called science will not save. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What science will save? There was inundation in the eastern part. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similar things—the Pacific Ocean can finish all this California in a second. How the science can protect? Professor Kulshrestha: Science has got more means for destruction, I believe. Prabhupāda: They can use, that's all. Professor Kulshrestha: And what is destruction? Changing for. Prabhupāda: (sounds of lecture over loudspeaker) What is that? Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Broadcasting it over the speakers. Devotee (2): Right now? (laughter) Professor Kulshrestha: Competition. Prabhupāda: Our students are now speaking. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Some universities are . . . what is that? Don't stop that. Devotee: I am just going to have to turn the speaker down here; no one can hear. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . in the temple listening. Hare Kṛṣṇa? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The other day one scientist came. What is his name? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor of science. So he was speaking very, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Bombastically? (laughter) Prabhupāda: And after all, he admitted that we are controlled by the laws of nature. As laws . . . there must some controller of the laws of nature. That the scientists do not know. We said: "Yes, we know." That is the difference. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that's right. That's right. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. So our conclusion was that they do not know, but we know. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Everyone will admit that he is controlled by the laws of nature. Nobody can deny it. Now as soon as we speak of laws, there must be there, somebody, law*-giver. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Law cannot spring up automatically. As soon as there is law, there must be some law*-giver. And that information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *"Under My direction the laws of nature are working." In the Brahma*-saṁhitā also there is: *Durga is not working independently. She is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord. Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā mayādhyakṣeṇa : "Under My superintendence." So for us it is not difficult; we accepted Kṛṣṇa, and it is acting for practical purposes. Therefore, we are more than scientist. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They do not know who is behind these laws of nature, but we know. You may disagree; that is a different thing. But as we say: "We know," it is working practically. And you do not know, neither you have any program to know, neither you can . . . Professor Kulshrestha: That's right. Prabhupāda: Neither you have got the capacity to know. That is not possible. You cannot know. You are . . . just like a person who is suffering from some disease, he cannot diagnose himself. He cannot find out what is the cause of the disease. He must go to a physician who is not diseased. Even a medical man when he falls sick, he entrusts himself in the care of another physician. He does not treat himself. Therefore if you are under the clutches of māyā , you cannot understand what is beyond māyā . That is not possible. Māyā will not allow you to understand. Just like if you want to enter in a big man's house, there are so many doorkeepers. So you cannot go by force to see the proprietor. You have to remain under the control of the doorkeepers. They will not allow you unless you are submissive. Māyā will not allow. So this method, speculative method, to know the Supreme, will not be successful. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmī, these scientist don't know what is nature also. Ask them what is nature, and they can't tell you what is nature. They can't define nature, you see. Prabhupāda: What is . . . what is their definition? Here is a scientist. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nature . . . we also think nature is controlled by some supernatural power. Of course, there is somebody behind nature who is controlling the necessary self. Professor Kulshrestha: No, what is nature they can't see. What is nature. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nature is the energy of the Lord. Professor Kulshrestha: Those scientists who don't believe in God, you see. One scientist I met, to say, he asked me, "Can you give me empirical evidence of God?" I said: "You don't need one." He said: "No, I need to believe." I said: "The entire world is empirical evidence," you see? "You see a flower, you see a plant, you see a man, you see a . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is just evidence of God," you see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Kulshrestha: He said to say evidence of nature. I said: "Define me nature," you see. He said he couldn't define nature, you see. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving the chances . . . (aside) You have got the wood? You have brought the wood? Those who cannot understand what is God, Kṛṣṇa is giving them instances how one can understand God in their own ways. He said: "I am the taste in the water." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Now, you are scientist, you know how to create water. But the taste you cannot create. That is not possible. Now He says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ : "I am the light of the sun . . ." (cut) (end) Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego Prabhupāda: You cannot say that I have got a different faith. I do not care for the laws of God. If it is a law... Just like, for example, here in the state, if you kill somebody, then you have to pay for it with your life. So if that is the law in your state, why a similar law in broader sense is not there in the courts of God, law..., law of God? You can avoid the arrest by the police and punishment by the state law by tricks, but you cannot avoid by tricks the law of God. That is not possible. If you violate the law of God, then you will be punished. If you violate the law..., just like if you touch fire your hand will be burned, so this law you cannot violate. Either you are Christian or Hindu or Muslim, if you touch fire, the law of God is that it will burn. So it will not care for you whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Christian. So law of God is applicable to everyone. Either you are Hindu or Muslim or Christian or you have got this faith or that faith, doesn't matter. So we have got such a God whose laws are equally respectable. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Universal. Prabhupāda: Universal. We present such God. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Moreover, we present a God that is lovable. Prabhupāda: Lovable, yes. Practical. Anyone who comes in touch with Him, he becomes a lover of..., immediately. How you can say that is not God? You have to prove that He is not God. That you cannot. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How many qualifications does a spiritual master have in terms of being a spiritual master? Prabhupāda: One qualification: he is a devotee of God. That's all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Also is he designated? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does he have to be designated by the former spiritual master? He has to be devotee... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...surrendered and designated. That is..., identifies disciplic succession: both surrender and designation. Prabhupāda: And by the result. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the result of activity. Prabhupāda: So far designation is concerned, the spiritual master authorizes every one of his disciple. But it is up to the disciple to carry out the order, able to carry out or not. It is not that spiritual master is partial, he designates one and rejects other. He may do that. If the other is not qualified, he can do that. But actually his intention is not like that. He wants that each and every one of his disciple become as powerful as he is or more than that. That is his desire. Just like father wants every son to be as qualified or more qualified than the father. But it is up to the student or to the son to raise himself to that standard. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: If you are incapable of raising yourself to the standard of becoming spiritual master, that is not your spiritual master's fault, that is your fault. He wants, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128], By My order, every one of you become a guru. If one cannot carry out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then how he can become a guru? The first qualification is that he must be able to carry out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then he becomes guru. So that carrying out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu depends on one's personal capacity. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā. Acceptance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as Kṛṣṇa, that is there in the śāstra, in the *Upaniṣads*, in *Mahābhārata*, in Bhāgavata. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How are the references made? Prabhupāda: Hm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: What references are given, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: You will find all this in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, references from Upaniṣads, from Bhāgavata. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that I am Kṛṣṇa. But the devotees, you know Sanātana Gosvāmī, corroborated. You know that? You have read that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: So sādhu śāstra guru vākya. So we have to accept the authority of śāstra, guru, and sādhu. So those who are sādhu, they accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The guru in the..., they accept. And śāstra, there is acceptance. So, therefore, it is confirmed. Not only He, any avatāra, he must be confirmed by these three sources: sādhu, śāstra, guru. I accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu because my Guru Mahārāja accepted. He accepted Caitanya Mahāprabhu as Kṛṣṇa; his Guru Mahārāja accepted. And the śāstra is there. When guru says that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa, he quotes śāstra. The śāstra, guru, and those who are actually devotees, sādhu, they also accept. This is the evidence. Devotee (1) (woman): Prabhupāda, is Lord Caitanya always carrying on saṅkīrtana in the spiritual world? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the father of the saṅkīrtana movement. Saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. This is the statement in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This Lord, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, is worshiped by saṅkīrtana yajña, and those who are intelligent, sumedhasaḥ, sharp brain, they worship this Lord by saṅkīrtana. This is the statement in the Bhāgavata. And, therefore, we worship Him with saṅkīrtana. This picture, He is being worshiped by saṅkīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti [SB 11.5.32]. And they are all big men Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, Śrīvāsa, and others, followers. That is the proof. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam, He is fair complexioned, but He is always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam iti, He is describing the science of Kṛṣṇa. These are the statement, and He is doing exactly the same thing. His accepting sannyāsa order is also mentioned in the śāstra. So everything we have to accept through three channels: sādhu, śāstra, guru. Saintly person, they you should accept; guru you should accept; and it must be mentioned in the śāstra. Guru cannot manufacture something. He must quote from the śāstra and then tell to his disciple. So disciple, as soon as he receives a message from guru corroborated by the śāstra, then he should take it as fact. This is the way. Why there should be any more doubt? What is your argument? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no argument, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's just the conditioning of the mind, the trouble of the mind. Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. Manodhara. Manodhara means those who are conditioned by the mind, their statement is not accepted according to our philosophy. Because he has no value. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have to be cured. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They have to be cured. Prabhupāda: Yes. Crazy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So a crazy man's statement is not accepted. Child's statement, crazy man's statement, unauthorized person's statement, blind man's statement, we cannot accept. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A woman's statement? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: A woman's... *Prabhupāda: If a woman is perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Just like Jāhnavā*-devī, Lord Nityānanda's wife, she was ācārya. She was ācārya. She was controlling the whole Vaiṣṇava community. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lord Nityānanda? *Prabhupāda: Wife. Jāhnavā*-devī. She was controlling the whole Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava community. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you have references about that in any of your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: I don't think. But there are many ācāryas. Maybe somewhere I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be ācārya. Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jāhnavā*-devī was accepted as, but she did not declare. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Women today..., there is a very popular topic amongst women. They speak of liberation. And their desire to be liberated is sane, but they do not understand. And they object very strongly... I've spoken to some of these so*-called liberated women, and they object strongly to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they think we discriminate against women. So I have been taking advantage of opportunities to describe to them that the only means to liberation for men and woman is through Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not make any discrimination. Kṛṣṇa does not make. Whatever difference is there, it is bodily difference. But as soul, there is equality. So whatever difference we make, that is bodily difference. So when one is above the bodily concept of life, there is no difference. Why woman? Even cats and dogs. Woman is human being. Even cats and dogs, they have got the same spirit soul. So a learned scholar will see from the spiritual platform. Then there is equality. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. This woman liberation movement, they speak like that, but they try to control every man with their body, they try to control their mind. And I told them, when you stop doing that, you're liberated. And they talk, they talk all the time, but they're still playing woman games. Devotee (2): They want to be men in women's bodies. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): They want to be men in women's bodies. They want to control, they want to be the president of the company, they want to wear pants, and they don't want to have children. This is basically their idea. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But they want to control with their bodies, with their physical attraction. They want to use that too. Prabhupāda: That is material. It has no spiritual significance. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, I've heard that every one of us who are in the movement now has had some association with Lord Caitanya (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Is it so? Prabhupāda: Yes. He's associating with Lord Caitanya just now. Devotee (2): Yes, now. But in some other life, this is what is... Prabhupāda: In other life may not, but he is associating at the present. That's a fact. Ātreya Ṛṣi: When you first came, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a lot of people probably presented you arguments such as If you call the movement God consciousness you'll be more successful. If you not wear tilaka and do not shave your head and do not wear robes and do not go on saṅkīrtana, you will be more successful. And people still tell us things like this, that You tell us the philosophy, we like the philosophy, but why do you go on saṅkīrtana? So what were some of the arguments you presented to these type of people? *Prabhupāda: This is the same argument, ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya [Cc. Ādi-līlā 5.176]. You cut the mouth of the chicken because it eats, it is expensive, and keep the back side because it lays down egg. You see? Intelligent man said, I am getting every day one egg. So that side, the back side, is very good. But this side is expensive, eats. Cut it. So he does not know, he is such a foolish, that if I cut the head, then the egg-giving business will also stop. Similarly, if you accept this philosophy, then you must accept this also. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that is difference... Prabhupāda: If you don't accept this kīrtana, then it will prove that you don't accept the philosophy. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. That's the difference between Your Divine Grace and all these other bhogis. They make it according to the taste of the people. They change. That's why this movement is so solid: no compromise. Prabhupāda: No. Why compromise? My Guru Mahārāja never made any compromise. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Compromise means you have some material attachment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, compromise means you don't want real business but you want some money by cheating and by bluffing. That's all. That is compromise. If I aim... Just like this Mahesh Yogi is doing: Yes, God has given you senses, why should you not enjoy? You simply enjoy. You simply give me thirty*-five dollars, I'll give you a special mantra. And here, Allen Ginsberg told me, Swamiji, you are very conservative. I said that I am the most lenient. I'm not conservative. You are conservative. You cannot give up your bad habits. I am very liberal and accepting everyone. But you are... Because you are conservative, you cannot give up your bad habits; therefore you deny to come to my camp. I am very liberal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A Vaiṣṇava is conservative with Kṛṣṇa and liberal with everybody else. Prabhupāda: That is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily catching something. That is conservative. If you try to protect your life, will anyone say You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you, and you want to keep your life? Is that conservatism? Do you think? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. *Prabhupāda: And if the murderer thinks that You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you and you did not allow. That is not conservative. That is self*-preservation, that is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily you catch some rules and regulation without any meaning or without any utility. That is conservative. In Sanskrit it is called niyamāgraha. (end) *Prabhupāda: So the Indians who are outside India, they have got a special duty. So far our economic condition is concerned, as I explained yesterday, that one is destined to certain material comforts and discomforts, according to his body*-already he has got. So either you stay in India or you stay in America, the bodily comforts or sense gratification, that will be achieved either in India or America. What you are destined to achieve, you will have it because as soon as your body is manufactured, your standard of comfort and discomfort is also manufactured. In Bengal there is a proverb that yethā deoyā bhange, kapāla yābe saṅge(?): "Wherever you go, your fortune will go with you." Fortune and misfortune, that will also go with you. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said one thing, that "Any Indian, any man who has taken birth on the soil of Bhāratavarṣa, India, he has got a special duty. And that duty is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Guest (1) (Indian man): Obviously, they have got some other work, this, that. *Prabhupāda: Hm. But anyway, because you are living in this country, you must have some friends. Whenever you talk with your friends, you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste your time in other ways. That will be beneficial for you and for your friends. And before talking about Kṛṣṇa, you should know about Kṛṣṇa. And you can know about Kṛṣṇa very easily by understanding Bhagavad*-gītā. So read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. Try to understand it and you can distribute it. That is a great service to Kṛṣṇa, to your personal self, and to the person you are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. And four principles of impious life, as it is accepted by our Vedic followers, namely, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. That will give you strength and over and above that, if you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... You can chant. It is not difficult. There is no loss. You can chant. That will give you spiritual strength. And in this way try to become spiritually powerful and serve Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter. Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the proprietor everywhere. So if you be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so wherever you may be, you'll be with Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you remain with Kṛṣṇa, you are not living within this material world. You are living in the spiritual world. So, especially I request Indians, as it is ordered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra: [Cc. Ādi 9.41] "Anyone who has taken birth on the holy land of Bhāratavarṣa, India," janma sārthaka kari, "just make your life successful by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and preach it." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. So if you take it you'll be happy, your neighbors will be happy, the world will be happy. And Kṛṣṇa-kathā means to present Kṛṣṇa as He is. Don't misinterpret by us..., just like some rascals do. Even a great scholar known all over the world practically in scholarly circle, he has practically vilified Kṛṣṇa by his so-called scholarship. Now he's suffering. He has lost himself, we have practically seen. So that is a great offense, to vilify saintly persons or God. That's great offense. So read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, present it as it is. Then your life is successful. Now, if you have got any question we can discuss. *Guest (2) (Indian man): Swamiji, the four principles you were telling about, are they for purposes of just other*-worldliness or is it for material gains in this world or what? Prabhupāda: No. We belong to the other world actually. We spirit soul, we belong to the spiritual world. Just like fish belongs to the water. Fish does not belong to the land. So if the fish is brought from the water to the land, it cannot be comfortable at any stage. It will die. Similarly you are Brahman, part and parcel of Brahman, particle of Brahman. So unless you return to Brahman, you cannot be happy. Guest (2): But if we look at the world as it is today we'll find that people who are the most powerful in this world are those who... Prabhupāda: Who is powerful? First of all let us see who is powerful. Guest (2): Like United States, like Soviet Union. There is no other power in this world who can... Prabhupāda: What do you mean by powerful? Then President Nixon is not afraid of anything, do you think? Guest (2): He personally may not, may be afraid of something, but as a country, yes, it's very powerful. The whole world is afraid of them. Prabhupāda: Well, President Nixon means this country. Why he went to China? Why he went to Russia? He's also afraid. If there is war there will be great calamity. So everyone is afraid. Everyone is under the control of the laws of nature. Everyone is hungry. So actually nobody's powerful in this material world. Even if he's powerful, it is for temporary. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Churchills and others came and gone. There was powerful British Empire, powerful Roman Empire. So nobody's powerful. That's a wrong idea. In due course of time everything will be kicked out and finished. That is the law of nature. Guest (2): Yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that it seems to me that if you carefully look at the world history during the past... Prabhupāda: World history is that history repeats itself. Everything comes into existence and then vanquished. Guest (2): No, that's not what I mean. What I meant is that during the past two thousand years, whoever was very powerful was who was doing all these four things which we are, which you are suggesting that we should give up, you see. Prabhupāda: But I say that my challenge is nobody's powerful. That is my challenge. Guest (2): I mean... Prabhupāda: You mean, but that is not the fact. Guest (2): It's a fact, I mean, when they are powerful they rule the whole earth. Prabhupāda: Where is your Hitler? Where is your Mussolini? Where is Napoleon? Guest (2): Yes, Hitler is gone, but then we have that U.S., you see. If tomorrow U.S. goes, maybe there will be Soviet Union. Prabhupāda: So that means everyone will come into power for some days; then it will be finished. That's all. Guest (2): Yeah, but all the people who are getting into the power are people who are having these four vices, you know, and... Prabhupāda: Therefore their power is finished. If you become sinful, then your power will not exist. Just like Rāvaṇa became powerful. He was so powerful that he dared to take away Sītā. But he also became vanquished. That is the history. Guest (2): Yes but people say that... Prabhupāda: People say, that is other... You see the fact. Nobody is powerful; *nobody can exist here. For the temporary, say for some years, you may be so*-called powerful but it is not powerful. We are concerned with eternal life. We are not interested in the so-called power for a few days. That is not our aim. Guest (2): Yes, but if we say that everything is destined, like the moment your body is manufactured and... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (2): ...everything is destined, then we are probably as well destined to be Kṛṣṇa conscious or to be non*-Kṛṣṇa conscious, you know. Prabhupāda: No. That destiny can change. Śāstra says... Destined means so far you're... Suppose you are to get, say, one thousand dollars per month. That you'll get. You try for it or don't try for it, you'll get. Therefore we should not waste our time for getting one thousand dollars. We should utilize the time for developing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is our philosophy. Devotee (3): Twenty in San Diego. *Prabhupāda: Twenty. And about two hundred somewhere. And in America you know the expenditure. We are living in the best part of the city. But we have no source of income. We take some books, some incense, but there is no guarantee that it will be sold. So it is not a book of technology, general demand*-Kṛṣṇa book. So if somebody's kindly interested in Kṛṣṇa, he'll purchase. So we are living in this way, depending on Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's supplying all necessities. We have got seventy thousand dollar expenditure per month. So this is practical. We don't try for getting any job or any business. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. But our main business is to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness and follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are... There is no problem for us. To collect seventy thousand dollars and spend every month, do you think is very easy job? A big government is concerned, or a big company, to collect seventy thousand dollars and distribute it again. It is a big problem. So how... We are increasing our centers. Practically every month, two, one, two. And we have got huge expenditure. But Kṛṣṇa is supplying. So we should see the example, be confident, depend on Kṛṣṇa and then everything is all right. Kṛṣṇa is powerful. He's omnipresent. He knows better than me. Our business is to satisfy Him. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So we are preaching this, that "You take to Kṛṣṇa. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa said. The same thing we are saying. We are not manufacturing it. Why should we manufacture? The words are already there. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We simply... Just like I have come to your place. What am I speaking? I am speaking that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious." We don't talk of any economic problem, political problem. We don't talk. Guest (2): How can you separate out economics, politics... *Prabhupāda: There is no separation. Kṛṣṇa is the all*-inclusive. Economic problem means eating, sleeping, mating or getting some money. So we are getting money. I have already given you account. Guest (2): Yes, but... No. As far as ISKCON is concerned, maybe that is true. But supposing if you take an individual devotee, see, who is married and has a family and all that... He cannot... *Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there*-everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Guest (2): What are the kṣatriyas of this order supposed to doing now? Prabhupāda: They are taking to politics. Yes. Guest (2): Whom are they fighting? Whom are they going to fight? Prabhupāda: No, some of our members, they are standing for election in the government. Election. And we hope one day some of our men will become President. That is kṣatriya's business, to take part in administration. Guest (2): No fighter? No fighting? They are not going to fight? They're not going to become warriors, not like the real kṣatriyas. Prabhupāda: Well, when you take part in politics you have to fight. (laughter) Yes. Guest (2): I don't mean that. I mean muṣṭi fighting. Prabhupāda: Well, if required, muṣṭi fight will be there. Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. He was Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (2): Yes. But what I'm basically asking is what are these kṣatriyas going to fight with? Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya fought... Why don't you take the case of Arjuna? He was a kṣatriya. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Yes, but in those days, you see, there is some kind of a clear cut... Prabhupāda: Those days or in these days, the same principles are there. Kṣatriyas should fight for Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection of life. Guest (2): Okay. Then the question is whom shall we fight now? Okay, supposing we are all... Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes. Guest (2): Fight in a real..., sword, fight with swords? *Prabhupāda: The demons. Demons. Demons. Just like Lord Rāmacandra fought with the demons, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa conscious person will fight with the demons. That is already there. Demons and demigod always fight. Devāsura*-yuddha, you know? That is history. We don't say that fighting should be stopped. We don't say that. We don't say that becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, nonviolence. That is bogus. In Delhi when there was not..., declaration of war between Pakistan and India, press representative came: "Swamiji, what is your opinion about this fight?" I said, "You must fight." And it was published in the paper. It gave some agitation. They were glad. I said, "You must fight." And that was published in big letters in... So we are not that kind of sādhu and Vaiṣṇava, that we don't take care of practical things. When there is need of fight, we shall fight. *Guest (2): Yes but if that is the case, you see, then the Muslim Mullah, or whatever you may call, says, "Fight all non*-Muslims." Prabhupāda: Well, Muslim... It is not the question of Muslims and Hindus. When there is right cause for fighting... Guest (2): But what I mean is a Muslim Mullah can say all non... Prabhupāda: Well, why you are making...? We are talking of philosophy. That is applicable to the Muslim or to the Hindus or everyone. When there is right cause of fight, one must fight. This is philosophy. Guest (2): Yes but what is the basis on which you decide whether a cause is right or wrong? There should be a common basis. You see. Prabhupāda: Just like aggressor. Aggressor. Just like you are living in this room. If somebody enters your room and attacks your wife, you must fight. You immediately kill him. That is the law. This is fight. You cannot see your wife being insulted before you. You must fight. You must kill him. That is the law. Aggressor. Guest (2): Does this apply to the brāhmaṇas? Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important. Guest (2): How do you define a brāhmaṇa? Prabhupāda: The brain. Guest (2): That is for a man, but... Prabhupāda: That is for everything. The brain of the society should be brāhmaṇa. Guest (2): By brain what do you mean? Prabhupāda: What do you mean, that you learn. You come to our school. Then you learn. You cannot learn everything in one minute. Guest (2): (laughs) No. Prabhupāda: Then you just hear. Don't make yourself laughing stock. Guest (2): No, what I mean is brāhmaṇa means by birth or by action or... Prabhupāda: No, no. Not by birth. By action. Guest (2): By action only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): You don't recognize brāhmaṇas by birth, then. Prabhupāda: No no. Then how they are becoming brāhmaṇas? They are not by birth brāhmaṇa? Why don't you see yourself? They are brāhmaṇa. Guest (2): So if there is a brāhmaṇa by birth, if he doesn't... Prabhupāda: No, there is no brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not sanctioned by the śāstra. Guest (2): Oh, I see. So there is no real brāhmaṇa by birth. Prabhupāda: No. There is no... That is not sanctioned by the śāstra. That is artificial. Guest (2): I see. So according to you... Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means by quality. He must have the brahminical quality, then he's brāhmaṇa. Guest (2): So under these principles then, there are no brāhmaṇas in India, really, then. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the... Not only... Guest (2): Not all the brāhmaṇas who are supposed to be brāhmaṇas. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We... Our... This philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to the Bhagavad*-gītā and Bhāgavata, we don't accept brāhmaṇa by birth. We accept brāhmaṇa by quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Quality and work. Guest (2): What are your qualifications for a śūdra? *Prabhupāda: Śūdra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is śūdra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a śūdra. A brāhmaṇa never serves anyone, a kṣatriya never serves anyone, a vaiśya never serves anyone. A śūdra... Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva*-jam [Bg. 18.44]. They want some service: "Give me some money, sir. I am helpless." "All right, you work like this." That is śūdra. Guest (2): So in other words, all dependent employees, they're all śūdras. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of the śāstra. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ: "In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra." Guest (2): : So only those who have independent means, then, would come in the... Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa. Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra. Guest (2): What about intermarriage between all the castes? *Prabhupāda: Well, intermarriage, that has introduced according to the social system. But so far we are concerned, we are allowing intermarriage from any country, any... If he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, we help him marry. There are so many intermarriages in our society. So try to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it so that there will be oneness*-one God, one scripture, one nation, one religion-according to Vedic injunction. Not that we are manufacturing something. That is the Vedic injunction. Guest (2): What is the speciality of Vedic injunction compared to Hebrew scriptures? *Prabhupāda: Vedic injunction is, the ultimate goal of human life, to go back to home, back to Godhead. That's all. This is not... As... I have already explained that this is not our home, material world. We are spirit soul. Our real home is spiritual world. So in the lives, different species of life, 8,400,000's of species of life, they cannot understand it, that we are spirit soul, our home is in the spiritual world. They cannot understand it. That opportunity is available in this human form of life. Therefore if we don't take advantage of this information and prepare ourself accordingly, then we are losing the opportunity. Tad api aphala*-janma. Anāśrita govinda-caraṇa-dvayam.(?) Guest (2): But how does this differ from the Hebrew scriptures? Hebrews also say the same thing, you know, that you have fallen down from the heaven and go back... *Prabhupāda: But Hebrew... Hebrew, Indian, there are... The aims is the same*-back to home, back to Godhead. The process may be different. The process may be different. Just like everyone wants some money. Without money he cannot exist. The process may be different, how he's earning money. Similarly, every religion, the aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Now the process may be different according to country, time, climate, men. That is another thing. But the... The same example. Either you are businessman or in service or working, craftsman, the aim is you require some money. Without money you cannot exist. This is crude example. Similarly, the aim is we are part and parcel of God. We... Unless we go back to home, back to Godhead, there cannot be any peace. That understanding is possible to develop in this human form of life, not in the animal form of life. Therefore every human being should take advantage of this human form of life and develop this idea of going back to home, back to Godhead. Either you do it through Hebrew religion or Christian religion or Hindu religion, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If your aim is... Just like at the present moment people want money. If he gets money it doesn't matter in which way he gets the money. Money we must have. Similarly, the aim should be fulfilled. Either you fulfill it through the Hebrew or through Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan, it doesn't matter. But if the aim is missed, then you miss everything. That is the definition in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, Guest (2): But in order to really get any interest in any of these things, you should really believe that... Prabhupāda: It is not a question of believe. It is question of fact. Guest (2): ...that there is another world and that you go there or you come back and all. This is a belief, isn't it? Prabhupāda: It is not belief. It is a fact. One who does not know, he thinks it is belief. That is ignorance. Guest (2): So how do we... Prabhupāda: You have to learn it. You have to become student. How do you expect to learn it for nothing? Guest (2): Learn what? Learn that there is... *Prabhupāda: That is the process, Vedic process. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāniḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. You have to learn. Just you learn so many things from teacher, similarly, these things also you have to learn. Guest (2): In other words, this question of there being another world, it could be actually learned. There is no belief in word in that. Prabhupāda: It is a fact. Guest (2): You could actually find out, experience yourself that there is another world. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Just like you have come to America. (laughter) Yes, similarly. Guest (2): So you are saying there is a process by which you can see the other world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Guest (2): Does this take a whole lifetime to learn? Prabhupāda: It takes only one minute. (laughter) If you are serious. If you are not serious, it will not be understood, even millions of years. That is the fact. Guest (2): I see. It's so simple, then. Prabhupāda: If you are serious, then it is a one minute's business. And if you are not serious, it is not fulfilled in millions of years. That is the... Guest (2): I see. Devotee: What determines, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one is serious or one is not serious? What makes one... *Prabhupāda: Well, this seriousness comes after many, many births. It is also not so easy. Rūpa Gosvāmī says, tatra laulyam api mūlyam ekalaṁ janma*-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. He wrote a verse, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "The kṛṣṇa-bhakti, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this thing, if you can purchase somewhere, just immediately purchase it." Kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatām: "Just purchase." Yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. First of all, if you want to purchase, the things must be available. Yadi kuto. Therefore kuto 'pi, "If it is available, immediately purchase." Then next question is, "What is the value? What is the price I have to pay?" Then he said, tatra laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam, "Simply your serious eagerness to have it. That is the price." "Oh, that I can have very easily." "No." Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate: "That laulyam, that seriousness, is not obtained after thousands of years' pious activities." It is so difficult. Janma-koṭi-sukṛtair na labhyate. People are acting piously, but that kind of seriousness is not available even after executing pious activities for thousands of lives. So that seriousness is also very difficult, to become very serious that "In this life I shall finish my business and go home, back to home, back to Godhead." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Kṛṣṇa says, "After many, many births, when actually one becomes in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Guest (2): Are we all part of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are part. Yes, we are part of Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): If we are all part of Kṛṣṇa, then what does it matter whether we really worry about becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious or not? We already are part of Kṛṣṇa, so whether we are conscious or not, we are there, you know, and it really doesn't need any effort at all. Prabhupāda: Then you are part of human society. Then why you are trying to improve your position? Devotee: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Why you are trying? Guest (2): To be more powerful. Prabhupāda: Just see. You do not know. You have forgotten the power, part of Kṛṣṇa. What is the function of part of Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking you are part of this material world. That is the difficulty. Guest (2): Yes, but that is what Kṛṣṇa gave me, though. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... You have taken it. Guest (2): The moment my body is manufactured... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Kṛṣṇa says that. Guest (2): Yes, that is provided He gives me that... Prabhupāda: Not "provided." There is no "provided." Kṛṣṇa says this. This is Kṛṣṇa's order, that "You give up all nonsense. Simply surrender unto Me." That is your business. But you are thinking, "No, I am part of this world. I must work in this world. I must have this. I must have that." That is your thinking. Kṛṣṇa's order is, "Simply surrender unto Me." That's all. But you are thinking, "How can I surrender?" And that is your business. If you do not surrender, then you go. See to your own business. So whatever you are creating, you are creating by yourself. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So you are creating your fortune and misfortune, both. Kṛṣṇa is giving you facilities. "All right, you want this? All right, take this." Guest (2): How does this tie in with the other thing, saying that if you are destined to get something, you will get it. But now you are saying, "If you want it you'll get it." These two seem to be contradictory. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... Not contradiction. You have created your destiny. You have got a certain type of body. So you must enjoy and suffer. And again, if you want something, you'll be offered another body. What is the difficulty to understand? Now you wanted something; you have got a particular type of body. You finish it. Now you want something more, you'll be... "Give me another type of body." Similarly, if you want Kṛṣṇa, you'll be given a type of body where you can go to Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): I see. So you are saying that if you ask for something now, you may not immediately get it. You may get it in another birth. Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. Just like these children. If he says, "Give me one boy." Is it possible? He has to wait. (laughter) Suppose a girl is married. If the girl says, "Give me immediately boy," is it possible? When she's married there will be. Wait. Guest (2): Maybe somebody like Kuntī can do that. Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is not Kuntī. So let us go. (end) Morning Walk -- June 29, 1972, San Diego Ātreya Ṛṣi: San Diego is very close to the border of Mexico, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...the cemetery of dog, one becomes dog. Yes, that is stated. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yānti bhūtāni bhūtejyā. "The worshiper of this bhūta goes to the bhūta." Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. "And those who are worshiper of Me, they come to Me." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: A good reason. If you worship Kṛṣṇa, go to Kṛṣṇa. If you worship the dog, you go to dog. Devotee (1): Māyāvādīs, they say you can worship anything and it is all the same? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): Do the Māyāvādīs say you can worship anything and it is all the same? Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) That is their nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says different thing, but they have manufactured their own way. Is that a temple? Devotee (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's a nice gold dome. Prabhupāda: It appears as church. It is a church? Devotee (1): Yes. I do not know what kind. Christian church. [break] Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa has endowed California with a lot of natural beauty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All year around there is nice flowers and green. Devotee (1): Sunshine. Prabhupāda: And you know how to utilize them. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa has given you this land. Now utilize it and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be heaven. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We could have an idea like you have in India on the beach for rich people to come and learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a very beautiful spot. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Like Bombay. Such an idea, it would be very nice here for all the rich, artists, intelligent people, everybody to come and rest and learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Let them learn there and implement the idea here. The whole city, whole country will be glorified. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. We need to have more cow protection. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: On the West Coast, it would be very nice if we had some cow protection. Prabhupāda: These people must stop this cow killing, the greatest sin. They should divert their tendency for happiness differently than by killing and drinking. Devotee (1): They are thinking they cannot live without eating cows. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): They think they cannot live without eating cows. Prabhupāda: They do not know. We can teach them how to get better vitaminous foodstuff from cow's milk. Yes. Let the cow live, and she supplies her blood in the form of milk, and you take vitaminous foodstuff from milk. That is civilization. Milk is also cow's blood. But take this blood in a humanely way, not by killing. Milk is nothing but blood of cow. Suppose if you kill one cow, you get blood how much, how many pounds? Devotee (1): Some number? Prabhupāda: No, just guess, how many pounds blood you can get? Devotee (1): Fifty pounds? Prabhupāda: Fifty pounds. But if you keep the cows, you get thirty pounds daily. This is intelligence. Instead of getting once fifty pounds and finished, why don't you get it daily thirty pounds? Devotee (1): Because they're lusty. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have to set the example, Prabhupāda, through your mercy. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is foolishness. Just like one has got some money, he utilizes his money and gets daily some income. And if he wants to spend all at once, that is foolishness. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now they think they are smart. They think they can mass produce animals and mass kill them. Prabhupāda: Mass killing? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mass killing. That is... They have factories where they can produce thousands of animals very quickly. Quickly they inject certain vitamins and so on in the animal so that they become fat very fast for mass killing. Prabhupāda: How they can produce thousands of animals? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're producing animals in the laboratories, not with... They're not producing, they are utilizing nature's way, but they don't let the animals see the green and the grass or the outside. They keep them in the barn and just keep feeding them. Prabhupāda: I don't think it is possible. It is simply imagination. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's the cows which are producing each other, it's not the man that is producing. But they artificially try to make them fat fast. Prabhupāda: And what is the harm if they live? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Excuse me, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: There is enough grass. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, yes. Devotee (1): This is a nice park. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Someday we will put on a nice Hare Kṛṣṇa festival here in this park. Prabhupāda: We shall park here, no? Devotee (1): Yes? Prabhupāda: What do you say? Devotee (1): If you would like. Prabhupāda: Anywhere. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is a long drive, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It just goes very scenic drive. Prabhupāda: You go. Devotee (1): We could walk for some time, walk along the beach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Then we can drive. Prabhupāda: Yes. (exits car) Devotee (1): Someday by Kṛṣṇa's grace we'll put a big festival right here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. When there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is no longer material. That is spiritual. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Those of us who have been blessed by your teachings, we still are conditioned to forget Kṛṣṇa. It's very painful when we forget. I know myself, I am still a rascal. It's very difficult when I forget. [break] Prabhupāda: It is your duty to give protection. Devotee (1): When he was very small, he came back from the temple one Sunday chanting and dancing, and finally we went to see what it was. (end) Morning Walk -- June 30, 1972, San Diego Prabhupāda: ...the brain of Einstein. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Brain of who? Devotee (1): Einstein? Prabhupāda: Einstein. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, the way they're doing it is through the genetic, yes. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they are trying... Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...to make a xerox copy. So why not the original? Devotee (1): What is that? Prabhupāda: Explain to him. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Why not the original? Prabhupāda: Yes. The scientists, they are trying to make a xerox copy of Professor Einstein. So why not the original? Hm? What is their answer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They cannot keep the original alive. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right, but let them make one original. Devotee (1): They can't even begin. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): They can't even make a cell. Prabhupāda: Then what is their credit? Devotee (1): They have made a computer. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (1): They have made a computer, but it takes a human being to program the computer. Prabhupāda: So what is their credit? If you simply copy something, that is not credit. The credit should go to the original. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientists admit that there is nothing new that they can make. Everything is the manipulation of the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Then the thing is that as they are individual person trying to do something wonderful, the individual person who has already done all this wonderful, how much credit He deserves. If by simply copying you want to take so much credit that you will defy the existence of God, you are so fool, rascal, then how much credit should be given to the original person who has made all these things existing. What is their answer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They simply don't care. Devotee (1): Like that man said last night, "We will do it." Prabhupāda: You will do, that's all right, you will do it, but it is already there. What is your credit, you will do it? It is already there, then what is your credit? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They choose to ignore it. Prabhupāda: Even if you do that, the already one who has done it, why don't you give Him credit? Devotee (1): Yeah, instead of being envious. Prabhupāda: Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān [Bg. 16.19], they are envious, rascal. Envious means rascal. That is material quality. And spiritual quality means to praise good quality. "Oh, you are so nice, you have got so good quality." That is spiritual. And enviousness, "Oh, this man is surpassing me. All right, I..." Devotee (1): Cut him down. Prabhupāda: That's right. This is material. Matsaratā. This is explained in Bhāgavata as matsaratā. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaḥ vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Devotee (1): Last night you said that that man's claim was like a poor man saying, "Yes, I'll become a millionaire." Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): "Someday I'll become a millionaire." Prabhupāda: And he wants the respect of a millionaire immediately, with future tense. Just see. "You give me the respect of a millionaire. I shall become in future a millionaire." What is this nonsense? First of all you become millionaire, then ask the respect. They want the credit beforehand. Trust no future, however pleasant. Why shall I believe you? Devotee (1): There's a lake over there. There's a pond, we can walk down there. Prabhupāda: Oh, bridge we are not going to cross? All right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Every time they find something new they should be glorifying Krsna. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Krsna consciousness. Devotee (2): (aside) What's in there? Devotee (1): Peaches. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's all there. Devotee (1): These are all peach trees. Prabhupāda: Oh. You have made this nice park, but with the help of God, who has created all these trees. You cannot do that. This means that you try to help or cooperate with God, then your credit is all right. Just like God has created this tree, and you are cooperating to make it nicely trimmed, make this path, this is cooperation. You take this much credit. But the first credit given to God, who has created this tree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does this remind you of Vṛndāvana, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is this like Vṛndāvana? *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana is different. This is man*-made. Devotee (2): Is this like Dvārakā, when Krsna was living in Dvārakā, they had... Prabhupāda: Yes, Dvārakā, yes. Vṛndāvana trees are all full of fruits and flowers. These are for fuel, these trees. Devotee (1): For fuel. Prabhupāda: That's all. For burning. There is no fruits and flowers. [break] Devotee (1): ...come on shore and get drunk and make trouble. They have their own police. Prabhupāda: Military has their own police. Devotee (1): Yeah. Prabhupāda: They are so pious and advanced in civilization, the students require police. The dean has publicly requested police, and still they are very much proud of advancement. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The police steals too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Especially in New York. *Prabhupāda: And police also requires another police. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All these Indians coming to this country to benefit, maybe we should go to India to take care of Vṛndāvana and all these other lands. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, this movement is there. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Will we be someday in charge of those? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, we are already in charge. You simply take charge. Your appointment is already there; simply go and take charge over. Devotee (1): No one else can even dispute it. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Room Conversation -- June 30, 1972, San Diego (Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with guests) Devotee (1): This is mung dahl for you, Your Divine Grace. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is it split? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee (1): Split yellow mung. Devotee (2): No, I think this is urad dahl. [break] Prabhupāda: ...big squash thrown away decomposes. So the outer skin has become dry. Nobody cares for it. It is lying down, the outer cover of the squash, and one dried bamboo. You have seen, you know bamboo? Pile cut, it is also lying somewhere. And a piece of wire. Devotee (2): Wire. Prabhupāda: Wire, that is also lying somewhere. Nobody cares. But one gentleman, he collected all these three things and prepared a string instrument. He joined the bamboo with the dry cover of squash and fitted the string and it began to ting, ting, ting. It is called ektara. There is instrument in India it is called ektara. The example is that so many things individually lying useless. But if somebody knows how to combine them, it becomes an instrument, very sweet. Very sweet to hear. Similarly, in this world, so many things are lying dead and frustrated. But if they are combined together by an expert, it becomes useful. So although this world is dead body, when there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it becomes enlivened. That is our movement. We are trying to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything dead within this world. (Prabhupāda drinks) Now just see all these ingredients, strawberry and..., what is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Orange juice. Prabhupāda: Orange and honey... Devotee (2): Peach. Prabhupāda: ...and peach, they are natural products from the jungle. Nobody goes to manufacture, automatically comes out. But when they are combined together, it is nectarean. None of them is manufactured by man, either this honey or the strawberry or the pineapple. Given by God. So in every step, you can perceive the hands of God. Every step. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This nice taste you cannot create by any chemical combination. It is not possible. Because God's hand is there, it has become so tasteful drink. Man cannot make. This flower, man cannot make. This fruit... Nothing man can make. This nice flower stick, how nicely it is made. So everything you can perceive the hands of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When you perceive the hands of God, presence of God, presence of the energy of God, then you become happy. That is the way of happiness. In every step of life, you feel the hands of God. We are teaching..., this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means how to perceive, realize presence of God in everything. So there will be no disappointment. (to guests:) Take more? Go on eating. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything there is. Actually that is a fact. People are so foolish. They are not trained up to understand the presence of God in everything. So we are training that status of life to perceive presence of God in everything. In everything. (pause) This is called peach? Śyāmasundara: Um hm. Like those trees we saw on the walk this morning. Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: We saw some peach trees, small ones. Prabhupāda: This is also peach? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. No peaches in India? Prabhupāda: Not so big. It is very nice. These fruits are there in India. What is called? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Cherries. Prabhupāda: Cherry. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have sour cherries too? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sour cherries? It's sour. Prabhupāda: It is sour? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is some kind of cherries which is very sour, for cooking. Śyāmasundara: Those are sweet. Ātreya Ṛṣi: These are sweet. Prabhupāda: They become bigger more? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: What are those biggers? Śyāmasundara: Plums. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There's strawberries. Śyāmasundara: They're plums. Looks like a cherry. Devotee (3): And these are avocado. Prabhupāda: Fat. Vegetable fat? It is fatty. These fruits are meant for offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam. Flowers, leaves, fruits He wants. So these are Kṛṣṇa's food. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. (devotee enters) What is your problem of life? Devotee (3): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Why miserable? Devotee (3): We never get satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is good sign, because then you will be searching after the source of satisfaction. The source of satisfaction is Kṛṣṇa. Śānti. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati [Bg. 5.29]. When you know Kṛṣṇa as the friend of everyone, at that time you get satisfaction. How nice. Everything is so nice. Devotee (4): Just see how bright this... Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (4): ...how bright these flowers are. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this beauty, nice flower, nice leaves, everything comes? Wherefrom? So I shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: The television show is at seven? Bhakta dāsa: Yes, seven o'clock. Would you still like to go for a drive and see some of the city? The car is all ready. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Take more. Come to our temple daily in the morning at seven. Are you coming there? Guest: Yes. I was staying at the Detroit temple with Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: I was helping the band a little bit. And I came to see you, and I was wondering what I should do to serve you. I should go back to Detroit? Prabhupāda: Or you can remain here also, anywhere. We have got temple in Los Angeles. Have you been in Los Angeles? Guest: No. *Prabhupāda: So come to Los Angeles and stay there for some time. I am going to Los Angeles tomorrow, so you can come. Live with us and you will be happy. We can guarantee you will be happy. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Vedic mission is sarve sukhino bhavantu: everyone be happy. This is our mission. And we know how to become happy. That is our credit. We know. How to become happy we know. Therefore, you can inform others also how to become happy. Happiness is our birthright. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Living entity is ānandamaya, full of happiness, but they have fallen in a different condition. Therefore unhappy. Different condition. Just like fish taken out of the water and put into the land, a different condition, and it is throbbing, flapping, unhappy. Take it, put it in the water again, and it will be happy. That's it. Guest: I don't want to take too much of your time up. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1972, San Diego Prabhupāda: . . . so decomposes. So the outer skin has become dry. Nobody cares for it. It is lying down, the outer cover of the squash, and one dried bamboo. You have seen? You know bamboo? Part cut, it is also lying somewhere. And a piece of wear. Śyāmasundara: Wire. Prabhupāda: Wire, that is also lying somewhere. Nobody cares. But one gentleman, he collected all these three things and prepared a string instrument. He joined the bamboo with the dry cover of squash and fitted the string, and it began to ting , ting , ting . It is called ektara . There is instrument, in India it is called ektara . The example is that so many things individually lying useless, but if somebody knows how to combine them, it becomes an instrument, very sweet, very sweet to hear. Similarly, in this world, so many things are lying dead and frustrated . . . but if they are combined together by an expert, it becomes useful. So although this world is dead body, when there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it becomes enlivened. That is our movement. We are trying to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything dead within this world. (Prabhupāda drinks) Now just see all these ingredients—strawberry and . . . what is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Orange juice. Prabhupāda: Orange and honey . . . Devotee (1): Peach. Prabhupāda: . . . and peach, they are natural products from the jungle. Nobody goes to manufacture; automatically comes out. But when they are combined together, it is nectarine. None of them is manufactured by man, either this honey or the strawberry or the pineapple. Given by God. So in every step you can perceive the hands of God. Every step. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This nice taste you cannot create by any chemical combination. It is not possible. Because God's hand is there, it has become so tasteful drink. Man cannot make. This flower, man cannot make. This fruit . . . nothing man can make. This nice flower stick, how nicely it is made. So everything you can perceive the hands of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When you perceive the hands of God, presence of God, presence of the energy of God, then you become happy. That is the way of happiness. In every step of life you feel the hands of God. We are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means how to perceive, realize, presence of God in everything. So there will be no disappointment. (aside) Take more. Go on eating. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam ( ISO 1). Everything there is. Actually that is a fact. People are so foolish. They are not trained up to understand the presence of God in everything. So we are training that status of life, to perceive presence of God in everything. In everything. (pause) This is called peach? *Śyāmasundara: Um*-hm. Like those trees we saw on the walk this morning. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: We saw some peach trees, small ones. Prabhupāda: This is also peach? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. No peaches in India? Prabhupāda: Not so big. It is very nice. These fruits are there in India. What is called? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Cherries. Prabhupāda: Cherry. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have sour cherries too? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sour cherries? It's sour. Prabhupāda: It is sour? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is some kind of cherries which is very sour, for cooking. Śyāmasundara: Those are sweet. Ātreya Ṛṣi: These are sweet. Prabhupāda: They become bigger more? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: What are those biggers? Śyāmasundara: Plums. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There's strawberries. Śyāmasundara: They're plums. Looks like a cherry. And these are avocado. Prabhupāda: Fat. Vegetable fat? It is fatty. These fruits are meant for offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam . Flowers, leaves, fruits He wants. So these are Kṛṣṇa's food. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). What is your problem of life? Devotee (2): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Why miserable? Devotee (2): We never get satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is good sign, because then you will be searching after the source of satisfaction. The source of satisfaction is Kṛṣṇa. Śānti. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29). When you know Kṛṣṇa as the friend of everyone, at that time you get satisfaction. How nice. Everything is so nice. Śyāmasundara: Just see how bright this . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . how bright these flowers are. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this beauty, nice flavor, nice leaves, everything comes? Wherefrom? (pause) So I shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: The television show is at seven? Viṣṇujana: Yes, seven o'clock. Would you still like to go for a drive and see some of the city? The car is all ready. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Take more. Come to our temple daily in the morning at seven. Are you coming there? Guest: Yes. I was staying at the Detroit temple with Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: I was helping the band a little bit. And I came to see you, and I was wondering what I should do to serve you. I should go back to Detroit? Prabhupāda: Or you can remain here also, anywhere. We have got temple in Los Angeles. Have you been in Los Angeles? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: So come to Los Angeles and stay there for some time. I am going to Los Angeles tomorrow, so you can come. Live with us and you will be happy. We can guarantee you will be happy. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Vedic mission is sarve sukhino bhavantu , everyone be happy. This is our mission. And we know how to become happy. That is our credit. *We know. How to become happy, we know. Therefore, you can inform others also how to become happy. Happiness is our birthright. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Living entity is ānandamaya , full of happiness, but they have fallen in a different condition. Therefore unhappy. Different condition. Just like fish taken out of the water and put into the land, a different condition, and it is throbbing, flapping, unhappy. Take it, put it in the water again, and it will be happy. That's it. (pause) Guest: I don't want to take too much of your time up. Prabhupāda: Thank you very . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1972, San Diego Prabhupāda: . . . so decomposes. So the outer skin has become dry. Nobody cares for it. It is lying down, the outer cover of the squash, and one dried bamboo. You have seen? You know bamboo? Part cut, it is also lying somewhere. And a piece of wear. Śyāmasundara: Wire. Prabhupāda: Wire, that is also lying somewhere. Nobody cares. But one gentleman, he collected all these three things and prepared a string instrument. He joined the bamboo with the dry cover of squash and fitted the string, and it began to ting , ting , ting . It is called ektara . There is instrument, in India it is called ektara . The example is that so many things individually lying useless, but if somebody knows how to combine them, it becomes an instrument, very sweet, very sweet to hear. Similarly, in this world, so many things are lying dead and frustrated . . . but if they are combined together by an expert, it becomes useful. So although this world is dead body, when there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it becomes enlivened. That is our movement. We are trying to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything dead within this world. (Prabhupāda drinks) Now just see all these ingredients—strawberry and . . . what is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Orange juice. Prabhupāda: Orange and honey . . . Devotee (1): Peach. Prabhupāda: . . . and peach, they are natural products from the jungle. Nobody goes to manufacture; automatically comes out. But when they are combined together, it is nectarine. None of them is manufactured by man, either this honey or the strawberry or the pineapple. Given by God. So in every step you can perceive the hands of God. Every step. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This nice taste you cannot create by any chemical combination. It is not possible. Because God's hand is there, it has become so tasteful drink. Man cannot make. This flower, man cannot make. This fruit . . . nothing man can make. This nice flower stick, how nicely it is made. So everything you can perceive the hands of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When you perceive the hands of God, presence of God, presence of the energy of God, then you become happy. That is the way of happiness. In every step of life you feel the hands of God. We are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means how to perceive, realize, presence of God in everything. So there will be no disappointment. (aside) Take more. Go on eating. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam ( ISO 1). Everything there is. Actually that is a fact. People are so foolish. They are not trained up to understand the presence of God in everything. So we are training that status of life, to perceive presence of God in everything. In everything. (pause) This is called peach? *Śyāmasundara: Um*-hm. Like those trees we saw on the walk this morning. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: We saw some peach trees, small ones. Prabhupāda: This is also peach? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. No peaches in India? Prabhupāda: Not so big. It is very nice. These fruits are there in India. What is called? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Cherries. Prabhupāda: Cherry. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have sour cherries too? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sour cherries? It's sour. Prabhupāda: It is sour? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is some kind of cherries which is very sour, for cooking. Śyāmasundara: Those are sweet. Ātreya Ṛṣi: These are sweet. Prabhupāda: They become bigger more? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: What are those biggers? Śyāmasundara: Plums. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There's strawberries. Śyāmasundara: They're plums. Looks like a cherry. And these are avocado. Prabhupāda: Fat. Vegetable fat? It is fatty. These fruits are meant for offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam . Flowers, leaves, fruits He wants. So these are Kṛṣṇa's food. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). What is your problem of life? Devotee (2): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Why miserable? Devotee (2): We never get satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is good sign, because then you will be searching after the source of satisfaction. The source of satisfaction is Kṛṣṇa. Śānti. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29). When you know Kṛṣṇa as the friend of everyone, at that time you get satisfaction. How nice. Everything is so nice. Śyāmasundara: Just see how bright this . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . how bright these flowers are. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this beauty, nice flavor, nice leaves, everything comes? Wherefrom? (pause) So I shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: The television show is at seven? Viṣṇujana: Yes, seven o'clock. Would you still like to go for a drive and see some of the city? The car is all ready. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Take more. Come to our temple daily in the morning at seven. Are you coming there? Guest: Yes. I was staying at the Detroit temple with Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: I was helping the band a little bit. And I came to see you, and I was wondering what I should do to serve you. I should go back to Detroit? Prabhupāda: Or you can remain here also, anywhere. We have got temple in Los Angeles. Have you been in Los Angeles? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: So come to Los Angeles and stay there for some time. I am going to Los Angeles tomorrow, so you can come. Live with us and you will be happy. We can guarantee you will be happy. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Vedic mission is sarve sukhino bhavantu , everyone be happy. This is our mission. And we know how to become happy. That is our credit. *We know. How to become happy, we know. Therefore, you can inform others also how to become happy. Happiness is our birthright. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Living entity is ānandamaya , full of happiness, but they have fallen in a different condition. Therefore unhappy. Different condition. Just like fish taken out of the water and put into the land, a different condition, and it is throbbing, flapping, unhappy. Take it, put it in the water again, and it will be happy. That's it. (pause) Guest: I don't want to take too much of your time up. Prabhupāda: Thank you very . . . (cut) (end) Conversation and Interview -- July 3, 1972, New York Go to video: Guest (1): Yes, I guess it would be hard to define in terms of a search. Man's . . . man's search for something divine. I'd . . . I'd define it in terms of, of a search for the divine. I've been studying Russian Elders in the Orthodox Church. Perhaps that's a tradition that you're familiar with in some way. They seem to have found the divine. I guess that's religion too. It seems to me both are, but perhaps you have a better definition than that? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you are searching with some hope, what is that hope? Why you are searching? When you are missing something, then there is a question of searching for that missing point. You said religion means searching after the divine. So that means you are missing the divine. Is it not? Guest (1): That's right. Prabhupāda: Now, the next question will be, What do you mean by this "divine"? Guest (1): Oh, I'm not . . . I'm not sure, Your Grace. Prabhupāda: The other day we were talking with some scientist. We came to this conclusion, that the scientist, big scientist, they are simply observing the laws of nature. Because the laws of nature are very stringent. For example, there is death. Everyone will die. So nobody can check death. However great scientist he may be, he cannot stop death. By laws of nature one is becoming old. By your scientific advancement you can stop first of all. So the science means they are trying to overcome the stringent laws of nature, but so far . . . not so far—even in the past, in the human history, they could not. In the present also they are unable. They say in future they will be able. But how we can believe in future? Because in the past they could not; in the present also they are unable, how they can overcome the laws of nature in the future? History repeats. Same failure there is . . . (indistinct) Therefore the divine means, as we define, the divine means the controller of the laws of nature. Laws of nature there is, and everyone is under the laws of nature. Nobody can overcome the laws of nature. Just like state laws: Every citizen is bound to abide by the state law. He cannot overcome it. *If . . . if he overcomes it, then, or violates it, the violation of law, and he becomes punishable. Similarly, the laws of nature means laws of God. Just like your president is the giver of your state law. Similarly, as soon as we say laws of nature, there must be giver of them. In our śāstra , in Vedic literature, it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam ( SB 6.3.19). Dharma , religion, means the codes given by God, and we have to abide by those laws. When you do not abide by those laws, then we violate the laws of nature, of God, and we become punishable. Now, who is that person, or the authority, who is giving that law, who is controlling that law? That is divine search. But that divine search can(not) be completed by the speculation of our imperfect senses. Our senses are imperfect, therefore whatever knowledge we gather by speculating our imperfect senses, that is imperfect. Just like the sun. The sun is very big, bigger, fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, but with our imperfect eyes we see just like a disk. If we remain satisfied with this imperfect knowledge, then we remain in darkness. We have to know the sun from the astronomer. They have calculated. They know. In this way knowledge, perfect knowledge, can be attained—when it is received through the perfect knower, not by speculation. That speculation means I shall speculate with limited mind and imperfect senses. *So however carefully or expertly I manage with the instruments, they are themselves imperfect. Therefore Vedic śāstra says that to understand the divine you must have divine mercy. You must possess. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja*-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi jānāti tattvaṁ (SB 10.14.29). One can understand the truth by the grace of . . . so searching after divine means we must search after the grace of the divine. Just like a very big man, just like President Nixon. So I am speculating that President Nixon is like that, like that, like this, his function is like that, he eats like this, he sleeps like this. That is speculation. But if I hear directly from President Nixon or his representative, very confidential representative, then it is perfect knowledge. I cannot speculate to know about President Nixon by my imperfect senses. I must know about President Nixon when he speaks personally about himself or his personal associate speaks about. That is the way. Guest (1): If our senses are imperfect, then with what sense do we perceive the divine that underlies these laws of nature? Prabhupāda: That our senses are imperfect means, just like I have given the example, I can see the sun, but I do not see the sun perfectly. I have got the power to see the sun, but I do not know how big is the sun. That power I haven't got. In that way my senses are imperfect. So when I see the sun and hear about him from a perfect person who knows about the sun, then my knowledge becomes perfect, although I have got imperfect senses. Just like I cannot understand President Nixon by my speculation, but when President speaks about him I can understand, although I have got imperfect senses. This is the process. Imperfect in this way: that our senses cannot approach to the ultimate point by speculation. Guest (1): Well I agree with that, but I still . . . the perfect person that is going to speak to me is God? Is that . . . Prabhupāda: That, that we'll have to find, find later on. First of all the principle should be accepted that unless we hear from the perfect person, our knowledge is imperfect. First of all you have to agree to this point. Therefore you are going to schools, colleges, universities, because at home who could learn everything? So why you are going to school, colleges and universities? That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that in order to know that perfect knowledge, one has to approach the proper person, who is known as guru . Guest (1): That's what I was getting at. Reporter: (aside) Could I ask a couple of questions now? Devotee: Please. Yes. Reporter: Swāmī, please, I don't want to interrupt. I want to try and ask you a few questions . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm with . . . (indistinct) . . . Swāmī, what do you think accounts for the . . . your popularity, popularity of the . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement sweeping America? Prabhupāda: Because it is not due to my personality. I am presenting the truth as it is. It will appeal. Just like if you prepare some foodstuff with nice ingredients, it will be appealing to everyone, and if you prepare something obnoxious, it may be appealing to a certain section, not to all. Reporter: What can appreciation of Kṛṣṇa do for the Americans like this? Prabhupāda: That, that I have repeatedly said, that you Americans, you are . . . you have already the grace of the Lord. According to our Vedic formula, when a man is born in rich family he is understood to be possessing the grace of the Lord. So you Americans, you have got sufficient riches; you are sons of rich men. So this is the grace of God, janma aiśvarya , to take birth in a high family, to possess riches; janmaiśvarya śruta (SB 1.8.26), to become learned scholar. Just like you are going to the moon planet. Your scientific knowledge is advanced. And śrī , śrī means beauty. So you are beautiful also. So considering all these four points, it is to be understood that you are in favorable condition . . . favorable consideration of the Absolute Truth, Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, then all your these material opulences plus Kṛṣṇa consciousness makes your life perfect. Reporter: Do you foresee that the devotees will grow in numbers in this country? Prabhupāda: There is possibility. Otherwise, why these young men are coming? That I can say: there is good possibility. But we have no facility. Just like government is spending to stop the LSD intoxication millions of dollars. But our students, as soon as they come, they become my students, I simply order them, "No intoxication." So what to speak of LSD, they do not take tea, they do not take coffee, they do not smoke. But government will not help us. That is the difficulty. Reporter: Do you seek government help? Prabhupāda: Yes. If I get government help, I can give protection to these confused, frustrated youth. I have no proper house to accommodate them, to feed them. With great difficulty I am pushing on this movement. So if the government comes forward—this means a little facility—I can turn the face of your country, immediately. There will be no problem. Reporter: What can you cure? What can you make better? *Prabhupāda: This is the cure: I am making good character. Don't you see their face? Some of them were hippies, frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright*-faced, serious character. They don't have any illicit sex. They don't eat meat. They don't have any intoxication. They don't indulge in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how you can expect good citizen? That is not possible. Their character must reform. So we have taken from the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity, God conscious. Don't you appreciate it? Reporter: Will they be able to function in a society as working individuals? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing prohibited. Simply you have to change your consciousness, that's all. We are also eating; we are also sleeping. Many of our students are householders, they have sex. So there is . . . nothing is prohibited, but regulated for higher achievement. That is our program. Reporter: Have you asked the government for money? President Nixon? Prabhupāda: No. What is the use of asking? Who will give me? Why shall I be refused? If you think this . . . this movement is serious, good, then you come forward. I cannot approach the government and the government says no. I don't think it is good for the government. Reporter: Do you see yourself, then, as the savior of American youth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. It is saved already. Why? It is not future; it is present, practical. Reporter: Thank you very much Your Holiness. Good luck. Thank you. Prabhupāda: So religion, very simple—I am talking with that man over there—religion means the laws of God. Simple definition. And one who follows the laws of God, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian, whether he is Hindu, whether he is Muslim. It doesn't matter. Take, for example, your Christian religion. Lord Jesus Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." But I think cent percent of the Christian people, they are very much engaged in killing. So there are, I mean, disobeying the laws of God. Don't you think? What is . . . what is the value? Then if you disobey the laws of God, then what is your religion? It is simply show. God says, or God's representative, God's son Jesus Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," but the whole Christian world, the killing art is very much favored. Maintaining slaughterhouse, shooting in sports, and creating . . . (indistinct) . . . and so many things, simply killing. And any film shown, when it is killing film as is very popular. Shooting film is very popular. I see in your park the soldiers killing. This, this park I was passing. What is that park? Devotee: Prospect Park. Prabhupāda: Prospect Park. There is big gate, because there is a killing picture. Devotee: Yes. Praising the soldiers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Praising the soldiers. Prabhupāda: So, in this way . . . of course, soldiers killing and ordinary killing is not the same, but my point is that . . . that God gives you the law that you shall not kill. Now if . . . if you are violating that law, then how you can become religious? That is my question. Guest (1): Grace is . . . is nonviolence, nonkilling. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): That is part of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): What's the future of that in . . . in India today? Prabhupāda: That, not only in India. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not meant for India or America. Of course, I am deputed by my Guru Mahārāja to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the Western world. That is his grace. He wanted that Western people, who are intelligent, they should learn what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So my mission is for the Western country, but it is not meant for any particular country, nation. It is meant for every living entity. Now, there are many unfortunate living entities and there are many fortunate living entities. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in America or Western country, only the fortunate persons they are coming. But if few of them come and understand, then by their example and behavior, the whole population will be benefited. It is not expected that cent percent population will be able to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But by the examples of the few, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). Just like you'll find in our temple it is always crowded to the fullest extent. We require a more spacious home. But not all of them our initiated student. Out of them, say ten percent may be our initiated student. But still, people are coming to see. They are following. Gradually they will also become student. So it is a very important movement, scientific movement. I therefore request learned scholars like you, government, scientist, philosopher, they should study. For them we have written so many books. Not only that. It is not that we are simply chanting and dancing. If you are philosopher, if you are scholar, if you are scientist, we can give you proof in a scientific way, in a philosophical way, scholarly way; therefore these books are there. So my only request is that all the leaders of the society, they should come forward, study this movement and take to it. That will be beneficial. We don't ask blindly, just like one follows some faith or type of religion blindly, and after some times they give it up. No. We say, our predecessor Lord Caitanya says, caitanyer dayār kathā karaha vicara (CC Adi 8.15). You just put your judgment about the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and if you do that . . . (aside) Come on . . . then you will find wonder in this movement. (aside) So you put little ice. Ice. Bring little ice. Hare Kṛṣṇa, come on. Yes. Thank you very much. (aside) So you accept this definition of religion, that religion means the law given by God. Simple point. Have you got any objection, or do you accept it? Guest (1): I accept that. I think religion is what you're doing. I think it's . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): I think religion is what I see right here. Prabhupāda: Right religion. Guest (1): I think it's great. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Yes. (laughter). Yes. So, what is our business with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . (aside) This child will disturb. Our this movement is that we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa. If I love Kṛṣṇa, or God, then naturally I will be obedient to the laws of God. Is it not? Just like these, my students, when, say four or five years ago, I came here, I had no student. I was loitering in the street. Nobody was caring for me. Now I have got hundreds and thousands of student. They can do whatever I order. So I did not pay them anything, neither I brought any money from India, but they are executing my order simply out of love. Is it not a fact? Because they have developed a love for me . . . the reason may be whatever it may be, but unless they have developed love for me, how they can execute my order without any personal profit? Therefore this is first thing required, that religion means to abide by the orders of God. Simple thing. And this obedience to the laws of God will be automatically performed if everyone loves his dormant love for God. We have taken this science. We are teaching everyone how to love God. If he thinks that, "I have learned to love God through some particular religion," we have no objection. Either he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim, or whatever he may be, if by executing the religious principles which he is professing he has developed his love of God, then we have nothing to preach to him. The result is there. But because we don't find the love of God is there, that we are putting a simple formula that "Here is the way." By utilizing or by accepting that way, he will very quickly love God. So if we—if we are convinced that to love God is religion, and that is our main business in the human form of life, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the genuine scientific movement. Everyone should take it. This is the position. But if somebody thinks that "My aim of life is different. I don't care for God," that is a different case. But our philosophy is, this human life is especially meant for developing that God consciousness or to know the art how to love God. Because the animals, they cannot. *I cannot preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy amongst the animals, because their consciousness is not so developed. But still, my movement is so perfect that I can do well even to the cats and dogs—by offering prasāda , by giving him chance to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . This vibration is transcendental. When it is chanted, it is good for everyone, all living entities. Therefore we go to the street and chant, so that everyone can hear the transcendental vibration. *So if it is accepted that religion means the law of God . . . is that accepted? Now we have to study what are the special laws of God and what is the nature of God. That is divine search. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand the nature of God, that He is the supreme father. Is there any objection? God is the supreme father. I think in Christian religion also they accept. Is it not? *Now, the supreme father says that all living entities, not only these human being or the civilized human being but even the animals, the trees, plants, the insects, birds, beasts, fishes or other aquatics—any living entity, even a small insect . . . living entity means who has got that vital force of moving. Some of them are not moving also, just like trees. They do not move, but still they are living entity. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand that all living entities, irrespective of bodily feature, they are sons of God. What do you think of this conception? Guest (1): I think it's probably . . . I think it's probably a better and more universal . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): . . . notion of life than . . . than you have in the somewhat more man*-centered Western philosophy of . . . Prabhupāda: That is defective. Guest (1): The problem, of course, is that you don't want man to somehow get lost in it all, but still I, yeah, where I am, I think that you would say . . . to agree with what you say . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . the universalism of it's very appealing. *Prabhupāda: No, we are not manufacturing this idea. That it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ (BG 14.4): in every species of life, whatever forms are there. And besides that, we take this body as dress. Just like your white shirt is not you. You are different from the white shirt. Similarly, one may have a body white or black, but he, as spirit soul, is different from the body. We are taking account of the person who is possessing the dress—not the dress, but the person. Just like I am talking with you, I am not talking with your shirt. I don't look to your shirt, whether you have put on a white shirt or black shirt. That is not my concern. I am concerned with you as a living being. This is our philosophy. We don't take account of the outward shirt and coat. This body, this gross body, is just like coat, and within this gross body there is subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. Within the subtle body, the spirit soul is there, and we are trying to deliver the spirit soul from these two kinds of entanglement, subtle and gross. That is our aim. The national movement or religious movement, that is more or less on the basis of the outward dress. One is Christian because he is born by a Christian father. Is it not? One is American because he is born on the land of America. We say that you are neither Christian nor American, Hindu, Muslim or Indian. You are servant of God eternally. Try to understand this fact, and make your life in that way. Then your life is successful. This is our . . . simple. Now what is your comment on this statement? Guest (1): I, uh, I'm enjoying everything you're saying, and I, I, I think maybe I should listen to some other questions now, to . . . Prabhupāda: So you are agreed to this? Guest (1): I, yeah, I like it. I like it. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Half*-agree. Half-agree. You "like" means half-agree. That's nice. Something is better than nothing. If it is half-agreed, that is better than at all not agreed, because . . . so what is the reaction of this statement of other boys and girls present here? You can tell? Devotee: I think that Prabhupāda solved all problems amongst all the people . . . (indistinct) . . . spirit soul. Guest (1): Are all spirit souls alike, or are they different? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): Are spirit souls alike, or are they different? *Prabhupāda: Alike. (laughter) The dress is different, the spirit soul is the same. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ. A learned, really learned man, he sees everyone on the same level, because he sees to the spirit, and he is giving that a learned Brāhmin , a dog, an elephant, a low-born, everyone is on the same category of spirit soul. That is the vision of a learned scholar. He does not make any discrimination that, "Here is a dog" or "Here is a very learned scholar." His vision is, the dog is also entangled by this body and a learned scholar is also entangled by this body, but both the dog and the learned scholar, both of them are spirit soul. That is actual vision. The same example: that I am talking with you, not with your dress. I am not very much concerned with your white dress or black dress. I am concerned with you as person. Similarly, we are concerned with the soul, not with the outward body. That is our position. Yes? *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our fully developed state in the spiritual sky, are we still one ten*-thousandth the size of a tip of a hair like we are now in conditioned state? *Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there, that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. *We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten*-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly, when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. *This body you will have to give up—today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. We have to give it up. The Bhagavad*-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti , "He comes to Me." So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant. Similarly, if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must develop our dormant spiritual qualities, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is the training period for going back to home, back to Godhead. So . . . but after giving up this body or after this time's death, others who are dying, they do not know what next life they are getting. They, although they are proud of education, but they do not discuss what is the constitutional position of the soul, how he is transferring from one body to another, how it is to be done. This science is unknown to the modern education. Is it not? They do not know. They simply speculate. That is the defect of modern educational system. And actually, everyone is seeking for spiritual emancipation. Therefore in your country, in spite of so many big, big universities, you are producing hippies, hopeless population. Am I saying right or not? Your are university teacher. I have seen in so many universities. Guest (1): I like my students. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): I like my students. I think they're on the right track. Prabhupāda: No. You like your students, I like your students more, because I do not wish to see them in such frustrated condition. That is my mission. I want to make them happy. So I want to give them this information of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that they may get back life. I have received thousands of letter, those who have come to this life from frustration, how they are feeling obliged to me. (break) Hmm? Guest (2): Prabhupāda? You said in, in the past lecture that, uh, for one who wants to take up bhakti , the work that you're engaged in does not stop. This has been a source of confusion for myself, maybe other people. Could you sort of delineate what it meant by this? Devotee (1): He said that when you take up bhakti , the work does not stop. So he's confused. (video start): Prabhupāda: No. Bhakti . . . therefore we are defining bhakti . Definition of bhakti , it means, That is bhakti . Try to understand what is bhakti . You are following me? Or you come here? You come forward? You come forward? Try to understand what is bhakti . Bhakti means we have no other desire than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti . Just like Arjuna. Arjuna satisfied Kṛṣṇa by fighting, and he became a bhakta . In the battlefield Arjuna was hesitating, that "What is the use of killing my own . . . own men, my family men, my brothers, my nephews, my grandfather?" all on the other side. And he was to fight with them, fight with them and to kill them. So he was hesitating. He was a warrior, a very great warrior. He knew that, "I fight, I shall kill them. Although they have come to fight with me, they do not know, but I know. They are my men, so why shall I fight with them? Let them enjoy. I don't want." That was Arjuna's feeling. *But after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā , when he came to the understanding it is his duty to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, so he sacrificed his own conviction that he would not kill this men. He satisfied Kṛṣṇa, by the same art. He was a warrior. So he did not change his position. *After reading (hearing) Bhagavad*-gītā , he did not become a Vedāntist or went away to Himalaya for yoga practice, and gave up the fighting, battlefield. No. He did not change. But he changed his consciousness. That is wanted. Our, at the present moment our consciousness is that we are working for our own sense gratification. When this consciousness will be changed, that we have to work for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, then our life is perfect. You haven't got to change your work or position. But when you understand that you'll have to work not for your personal sense gratification, but for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, that is success of life. But there is no question of changing your position. Changing your consciousness—that is success. Guest (2): Can I ask another question? Prabhupāda: First of all, this is clear? Guest (2): It's very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta does not mean that he'll have to change everything. No. He hasn't got to change anything. Simply he has to change his consciousness. That's all. This is bhakti —change, change his consciousness in favor of Kṛṣṇa. I am acting now, "I like this, to do." This is our position. "I like. I like to eat like this. I like to sleep like this." So present position, material position, means my liking, and spiritual position means Kṛṣṇa's liking. That's all. I agree to the Kṛṣṇa's like. Material position means I . . . I simply want to satisfy my liking. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to change this mentality, my liking, but to accept the principle of satisfying Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Can you get that light on. The other light. So bhakti means to act according to Kṛṣṇa's liking. Is it clear? Guest (2): It's clear. Prabhupāda: It does not mean change of place, change of occupation. Change of mentality. That's all Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . we're engaged in some occupation that Kṛṣṇa does not like? Devotee (1): What if you're engaged in some occupation which Kṛṣṇa does not like? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the Kṛṣṇa's representative: what He likes, what He does not like. Guest (3): We should accordingly give it up immediately? *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to accept spiritual master. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8). If the spiritual master is pleased, then you know Kṛṣṇa is pleased. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if spiritual master is displeased, then you know that Kṛṣṇa is displeased. You cannot be in contact with Kṛṣṇa at the present moment, in the beginning; therefore you require the help of Kṛṣṇa's representative to learn whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or Kṛṣṇa is not pleased. But your business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Guest (4): I'm not living in the temple now. I'm working and I'm married. So what should my activities be like? Prabhupāda: You should make your home a temple. What is the difference between temple and home? This is a temple. Next house is a house. This is also made of brick and stone; that is also made of brick and stone. But it is called temple, because here the business is Kṛṣṇa; and that is called house, because there is no Kṛṣṇa business. So if you make your house Kṛṣṇa business, then that is also temple. You do the same thing as the members here are doing—in your apartment, in your house, with your wife and children. You earn independently, spend independently; so do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then your house is temple. That, that we want. Here the temple means we are simply giving example how to live. So this example can be followed everywhere. *Every house can be turned into a temple. Here everything is Kṛṣṇa*-centered. Similarly, if at . . . in your home, you make Kṛṣṇa center, not you center, then your home is also a temple. (pause) Yes? Woman guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I understand Kṛṣṇa as being Supreme Controller of all activities that happen in this material world . . . Prabhupāda: I do not follow. I do not follow. Either you hear . . . Devotee (1): "I understand Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme Controller of all activities in the material world." Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman guest: . . . and so how can Kṛṣṇa allow animal slaughter and other such māyā's activities, to take place under His control? Devotee (1): "How can Kṛṣṇa allow animal slaughter and other activities of māyā ?" Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not allow animal slaughter. Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the father of every living entity." Just like father, he has got ten sons: some of them are like animals. But those who are advanced in knowledge, if such sons request the father that, "My other brothers are useless. Let us kill them and eat," will the father agree? Will the father say: "Yes, my . . . these sons are useless. You kill them and eat"? Will the father say? Woman guest: No. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has no sanction for animal killing. We are doing, violating the laws of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are becoming entangled in sinful activities. We are doing that. Kṛṣṇa does not sanction. Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā : These are the qualities to be developed. You cannot be violent. You cannot kill animals. This is violation of God's law. Just like in Bible it is stated, "Thou shall not kill." So those who are killing, they are violating the laws of God and become, I mean to say, liable to be punished, criminals. But, Kṛṣṇa does not say. The governments does not say that you kill your fellow man. If you kill, then you will be hanged. The government says. But when you kill your fellow man, it is your responsibility; it is not government's responsibility. Similarly, when you kill another fellow human being, that is your responsibility. It is not Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. (pause) Yes. Guest (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard different procedures for acquiring a name, Kṛṣṇa conscious name. What is the procedure now? . . . (indistinct) . . . has it changed and so forth ? Prabhupāda: Our procedure—we are asking everybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . That simple thing will help you in every respect. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually you will be enlightened in all other subject. And you will do it yourself. Make association with devotees. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . This is our procedure. *Guest (6): In your books you claim that we're in the Kali*-yuga age. Is the Kali-yuga age coming to a close now? *Prabhupāda: No. It will continue for another 427,000's of years. The age of Kali*-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that we have passed only 5,000 years. The balance is 427,000's of years. And it will become, the condition of society, world, will be worse. *Not better, but worse. In the last stage of Kali*-yuga there will be no food grains, no milk, no fruits. So very horrible time. People will kill their own children and eat just like animals. So the last stage of Kali-yuga it will be like that. So before coming to that stage, better to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to Kṛṣṇa. That is our position. We don't wish to wait for the worst thing. The worse things are already happening; and it will be still more worse. So instead of waiting up to that time, better be perfect by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our position. (pause) Yes? Devotee (2): As a devotee now that's in the temple, is it good consciousness, do you think, that Kṛṣṇa may be presenting many opportunities to serve, but I would prefer to do a particular thing that I like best, rather than consulting the authorities as to what should be done? Prabhupāda: Yes, what we are doing, you see; you do it. What should be done, that we are practically doing. You do the same thing. We are talking of Kṛṣṇa from so many books, we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, we are chanting of Kṛṣṇa, we are eating Kṛṣṇa's prasāda . Our whole day and night is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. This is to be done. Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Guest (3): Yes. I have some of them. Nitāi dāsa at Columbia, he sees that we are well supplied. Devotee (1): We have a college program there, Columbia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Nitāi is running. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. (pause) You can give these . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (to tape) Paul Valliere here. P. A. U. L. V. A. L. L. I. E. R. E Columbia University. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Jaya . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . just have a clean place like this which I am talking, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read all these books and try to inform your audience about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty. We can open a center anywhere, and anywhere will be pleased to hear about Kṛṣṇa. So it is not a difficult task. Simply the worker must be sincere; then everything is all right. Just like I came to your country alone. I had no friend. I was sitting alone on the Tompkinsons Square Park and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gradually they came. So similarly you can do. What is the difficulty? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . in Harlem three weeks ago. I wrote you a letter, but he didn't get it, telling all the things a lot of people are coming, people chanting in the streets . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. This process is already there. Simply we have to execute, that's all. It is not difficult, and it is not limited to any certain neighborhood or any kind of population. No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Devotee (3): As far as . . . there are two temples which are going to be in Harlem, for . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): There is two new temples being started; one in Harlem, and there is another one. The one in Harlem has authority. In other words, a qualified individual to, you know, carry out the prescribed activities that are supposed to be performed in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness temple. And the question was, was basically for this new temple that is being started, some authority to be recommended for that particular temple, to give a basic, you know, foundation in bringing, you know, the temple up to brahminical standards. Prabhupāda: This is a branch of ISKCON? That is authority. Devotee (3): Right. In other words, someone who, you know, is just like a temple president? Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you select amongst yourself. Who is more competent, elect him as president. Everywhere one must be leader. That you select your leader. As you select your President, similarly, you select your president in this connection. Devotee (3): So that would be bona fide, by, you know . . . (indistinct) . . . making. Prabhupāda: That, that man which is initiated. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The selected man must be initiated. Devotee (3): Right. Jaya . Jaya. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . excuse me 1:08:43 Prabhupada (SM Prabhupāda) I was wondering about that at the moment in several of our temples, we have . . . (indistinct) . . . city of Chicago. I was wondering, if in checking with the temple president, if it is his decision . . . Prabhupāda: To select a president means there must be discipline. Without obedience . . . without discipline, they cannot be obedience. Devotee (4): What I meant to ask was, what if the president at the other temple that I'm at now . . . (indistinct) . . . my services I'm more needed there. Prabhupāda: President is spiritual master's representative, that's all. Spiritual master is not present . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore one man is selected as president to look after the business on behalf of the spiritual master. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This Godbrother is in another temple, in Midwest, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And he says, "If my president says to stay and engage, should I leave and come to start this in Harlem?" Or should he stay in his present temple in Midwest? Prabhupāda: That you consider with the GBC member. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Consult GBC with this. Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, in . . . (indistinct) . . . only one of us was initiated at the time. And it is good to have initiated devotees to go in . . . go at the temple, to open . . . Prabhupāda: At least the president must be initiated. Devotee (4): So there is only one of us. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Two. Devotee (5): Two. Devotee: Three. There or four. Devotee (6): Me and . . . (indistinct) . . . are helping out one chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . and now one woman is giving her house, anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . so we are going to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The president may be initiated and start immediately. Maybe Ātreya Ṛṣi . . .? Devotee (6): He is initiated. Prabhupāda: Eh? He is initiated. Devotee (6): I'm initiated. I can be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Begin like that. Or some others who are qualified they can be also initiated. Qualification is that he must follow the regulative principles. That is the qualification. Yes? Devotee (7): I came to New York from Detroit, with recommendation from Bhāgavata dāsa . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (7): . . . to be initiated, I have my letter with me… Prabhupāda: So you will be initiated, that's nice. So anyone or any one of you, when you agree to follow the regulative principles, and if you are recommended by our men, then you can also be initiated. It is not difficult. Initiation is formality. First of all you have to decide whether you will abide by the rules and regulation and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is your consideration. You have to think yourself whether you are going to take seriously this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is your decision. Initiation is formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. So if you have understood the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, and if you have decided that you will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously and preach the philosophy to others, that is your initiation. My touching is simply formality. It is your determination that is initiation. Devotee (4): Like there was some difficulty that arrived in Cleveland temple with some of the . . . lacks in devotees there. Prabhupāda: Well, that is just due to lack of knowledge. You see? But after all, we are trained up in a different way. So these things will go on as you make progress. We should not be solving problems. Suppose . . . Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has instructed that we should be a little tolerant. Suppose if somebody treats you not properly because you have got a different skin. It is his ignorance, and it is your also ignorance when you feeling insulted. You should know that, "He has insulted my skin, not to me." Suppose if I say: "Why you have taken this blue shirt?" So I may say like that, but it is not very important to. You may take it blue shirt or a white shirt, it doesn't matter. You are eternally Kṛṣṇa's servant. If you keep that consciousness you won't feel insulted. This is socially going on in the material world; sometimes we cannot check it. So these are to happen; therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . (CC Adi 17.31). If you are to do business, then we have to learn how to tolerate. Devotee (4): So not only here in New York, but in the near future would it be all right to, to, ah, to be able to establish something in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Try. By that way you will be able to serve Kṛṣṇa very rightly and as soon as you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, your life is successful. That's all. Woman devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can we please you the most? Ātreya Ṛṣi: How can she please you most? (laughter) Prabhupāda: How do you want to please me? Woman devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will please me. Always, twenty*-four hours chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma. There is no expenditure. So Kṛṣṇa has given you the tongue, you utilize the tongue, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That will please me. Is that all right? (end) Conversation and Interview -- July 3, 1972, New York Go to video: Guest (1): Yes, I guess it would be hard to define in terms of a search. Man's . . . man's search for something divine. I'd . . . I'd define it in terms of, of a search for the divine. I've been studying Russian Elders in the Orthodox Church. Perhaps that's a tradition that you're familiar with in some way. They seem to have found the divine. I guess that's religion too. It seems to me both are, but perhaps you have a better definition than that? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you are searching with some hope, what is that hope? Why you are searching? When you are missing something, then there is a question of searching for that missing point. You said religion means searching after the divine. So that means you are missing the divine. Is it not? Guest (1): That's right. Prabhupāda: Now, the next question will be, What do you mean by this "divine"? Guest (1): Oh, I'm not . . . I'm not sure, Your Grace. Prabhupāda: The other day we were talking with some scientist. We came to this conclusion, that the scientist, big scientist, they are simply observing the laws of nature. Because the laws of nature are very stringent. For example, there is death. Everyone will die. So nobody can check death. However great scientist he may be, he cannot stop death. By laws of nature one is becoming old. By your scientific advancement you can stop first of all. So the science means they are trying to overcome the stringent laws of nature, but so far . . . not so far—even in the past, in the human history, they could not. In the present also they are unable. They say in future they will be able. But how we can believe in future? Because in the past they could not; in the present also they are unable, how they can overcome the laws of nature in the future? History repeats. Same failure there is . . . (indistinct) Therefore the divine means, as we define, the divine means the controller of the laws of nature. Laws of nature there is, and everyone is under the laws of nature. Nobody can overcome the laws of nature. Just like state laws: Every citizen is bound to abide by the state law. He cannot overcome it. *If . . . if he overcomes it, then, or violates it, the violation of law, and he becomes punishable. Similarly, the laws of nature means laws of God. Just like your president is the giver of your state law. Similarly, as soon as we say laws of nature, there must be giver of them. In our śāstra , in Vedic literature, it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam ( SB 6.3.19). Dharma , religion, means the codes given by God, and we have to abide by those laws. When you do not abide by those laws, then we violate the laws of nature, of God, and we become punishable. Now, who is that person, or the authority, who is giving that law, who is controlling that law? That is divine search. But that divine search can(not) be completed by the speculation of our imperfect senses. Our senses are imperfect, therefore whatever knowledge we gather by speculating our imperfect senses, that is imperfect. Just like the sun. The sun is very big, bigger, fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, but with our imperfect eyes we see just like a disk. If we remain satisfied with this imperfect knowledge, then we remain in darkness. We have to know the sun from the astronomer. They have calculated. They know. In this way knowledge, perfect knowledge, can be attained—when it is received through the perfect knower, not by speculation. That speculation means I shall speculate with limited mind and imperfect senses. *So however carefully or expertly I manage with the instruments, they are themselves imperfect. Therefore Vedic śāstra says that to understand the divine you must have divine mercy. You must possess. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja*-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi jānāti tattvaṁ (SB 10.14.29). One can understand the truth by the grace of . . . so searching after divine means we must search after the grace of the divine. Just like a very big man, just like President Nixon. So I am speculating that President Nixon is like that, like that, like this, his function is like that, he eats like this, he sleeps like this. That is speculation. But if I hear directly from President Nixon or his representative, very confidential representative, then it is perfect knowledge. I cannot speculate to know about President Nixon by my imperfect senses. I must know about President Nixon when he speaks personally about himself or his personal associate speaks about. That is the way. Guest (1): If our senses are imperfect, then with what sense do we perceive the divine that underlies these laws of nature? Prabhupāda: That our senses are imperfect means, just like I have given the example, I can see the sun, but I do not see the sun perfectly. I have got the power to see the sun, but I do not know how big is the sun. That power I haven't got. In that way my senses are imperfect. So when I see the sun and hear about him from a perfect person who knows about the sun, then my knowledge becomes perfect, although I have got imperfect senses. Just like I cannot understand President Nixon by my speculation, but when President speaks about him I can understand, although I have got imperfect senses. This is the process. Imperfect in this way: that our senses cannot approach to the ultimate point by speculation. Guest (1): Well I agree with that, but I still . . . the perfect person that is going to speak to me is God? Is that . . . Prabhupāda: That, that we'll have to find, find later on. First of all the principle should be accepted that unless we hear from the perfect person, our knowledge is imperfect. First of all you have to agree to this point. Therefore you are going to schools, colleges, universities, because at home who could learn everything? So why you are going to school, colleges and universities? That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that in order to know that perfect knowledge, one has to approach the proper person, who is known as guru . Guest (1): That's what I was getting at. Reporter: (aside) Could I ask a couple of questions now? Devotee: Please. Yes. Reporter: Swāmī, please, I don't want to interrupt. I want to try and ask you a few questions . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm with . . . (indistinct) . . . Swāmī, what do you think accounts for the . . . your popularity, popularity of the . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement sweeping America? Prabhupāda: Because it is not due to my personality. I am presenting the truth as it is. It will appeal. Just like if you prepare some foodstuff with nice ingredients, it will be appealing to everyone, and if you prepare something obnoxious, it may be appealing to a certain section, not to all. Reporter: What can appreciation of Kṛṣṇa do for the Americans like this? Prabhupāda: That, that I have repeatedly said, that you Americans, you are . . . you have already the grace of the Lord. According to our Vedic formula, when a man is born in rich family he is understood to be possessing the grace of the Lord. So you Americans, you have got sufficient riches; you are sons of rich men. So this is the grace of God, janma aiśvarya , to take birth in a high family, to possess riches; janmaiśvarya śruta (SB 1.8.26), to become learned scholar. Just like you are going to the moon planet. Your scientific knowledge is advanced. And śrī , śrī means beauty. So you are beautiful also. So considering all these four points, it is to be understood that you are in favorable condition . . . favorable consideration of the Absolute Truth, Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, then all your these material opulences plus Kṛṣṇa consciousness makes your life perfect. Reporter: Do you foresee that the devotees will grow in numbers in this country? Prabhupāda: There is possibility. Otherwise, why these young men are coming? That I can say: there is good possibility. But we have no facility. Just like government is spending to stop the LSD intoxication millions of dollars. But our students, as soon as they come, they become my students, I simply order them, "No intoxication." So what to speak of LSD, they do not take tea, they do not take coffee, they do not smoke. But government will not help us. That is the difficulty. Reporter: Do you seek government help? Prabhupāda: Yes. If I get government help, I can give protection to these confused, frustrated youth. I have no proper house to accommodate them, to feed them. With great difficulty I am pushing on this movement. So if the government comes forward—this means a little facility—I can turn the face of your country, immediately. There will be no problem. Reporter: What can you cure? What can you make better? *Prabhupāda: This is the cure: I am making good character. Don't you see their face? Some of them were hippies, frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright*-faced, serious character. They don't have any illicit sex. They don't eat meat. They don't have any intoxication. They don't indulge in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how you can expect good citizen? That is not possible. Their character must reform. So we have taken from the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity, God conscious. Don't you appreciate it? Reporter: Will they be able to function in a society as working individuals? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing prohibited. Simply you have to change your consciousness, that's all. We are also eating; we are also sleeping. Many of our students are householders, they have sex. So there is . . . nothing is prohibited, but regulated for higher achievement. That is our program. Reporter: Have you asked the government for money? President Nixon? Prabhupāda: No. What is the use of asking? Who will give me? Why shall I be refused? If you think this . . . this movement is serious, good, then you come forward. I cannot approach the government and the government says no. I don't think it is good for the government. Reporter: Do you see yourself, then, as the savior of American youth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. It is saved already. Why? It is not future; it is present, practical. Reporter: Thank you very much Your Holiness. Good luck. Thank you. Prabhupāda: So religion, very simple—I am talking with that man over there—religion means the laws of God. Simple definition. And one who follows the laws of God, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian, whether he is Hindu, whether he is Muslim. It doesn't matter. Take, for example, your Christian religion. Lord Jesus Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." But I think cent percent of the Christian people, they are very much engaged in killing. So there are, I mean, disobeying the laws of God. Don't you think? What is . . . what is the value? Then if you disobey the laws of God, then what is your religion? It is simply show. God says, or God's representative, God's son Jesus Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," but the whole Christian world, the killing art is very much favored. Maintaining slaughterhouse, shooting in sports, and creating . . . (indistinct) . . . and so many things, simply killing. And any film shown, when it is killing film as is very popular. Shooting film is very popular. I see in your park the soldiers killing. This, this park I was passing. What is that park? Devotee: Prospect Park. Prabhupāda: Prospect Park. There is big gate, because there is a killing picture. Devotee: Yes. Praising the soldiers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Praising the soldiers. Prabhupāda: So, in this way . . . of course, soldiers killing and ordinary killing is not the same, but my point is that . . . that God gives you the law that you shall not kill. Now if . . . if you are violating that law, then how you can become religious? That is my question. Guest (1): Grace is . . . is nonviolence, nonkilling. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): That is part of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): What's the future of that in . . . in India today? Prabhupāda: That, not only in India. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not meant for India or America. Of course, I am deputed by my Guru Mahārāja to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the Western world. That is his grace. He wanted that Western people, who are intelligent, they should learn what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So my mission is for the Western country, but it is not meant for any particular country, nation. It is meant for every living entity. Now, there are many unfortunate living entities and there are many fortunate living entities. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in America or Western country, only the fortunate persons they are coming. But if few of them come and understand, then by their example and behavior, the whole population will be benefited. It is not expected that cent percent population will be able to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But by the examples of the few, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). Just like you'll find in our temple it is always crowded to the fullest extent. We require a more spacious home. But not all of them our initiated student. Out of them, say ten percent may be our initiated student. But still, people are coming to see. They are following. Gradually they will also become student. So it is a very important movement, scientific movement. I therefore request learned scholars like you, government, scientist, philosopher, they should study. For them we have written so many books. Not only that. It is not that we are simply chanting and dancing. If you are philosopher, if you are scholar, if you are scientist, we can give you proof in a scientific way, in a philosophical way, scholarly way; therefore these books are there. So my only request is that all the leaders of the society, they should come forward, study this movement and take to it. That will be beneficial. We don't ask blindly, just like one follows some faith or type of religion blindly, and after some times they give it up. No. We say, our predecessor Lord Caitanya says, caitanyer dayār kathā karaha vicara (CC Adi 8.15). You just put your judgment about the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and if you do that . . . (aside) Come on . . . then you will find wonder in this movement. (aside) So you put little ice. Ice. Bring little ice. Hare Kṛṣṇa, come on. Yes. Thank you very much. (aside) So you accept this definition of religion, that religion means the law given by God. Simple point. Have you got any objection, or do you accept it? Guest (1): I accept that. I think religion is what you're doing. I think it's . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): I think religion is what I see right here. Prabhupāda: Right religion. Guest (1): I think it's great. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Yes. (laughter). Yes. So, what is our business with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . (aside) This child will disturb. Our this movement is that we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa. If I love Kṛṣṇa, or God, then naturally I will be obedient to the laws of God. Is it not? Just like these, my students, when, say four or five years ago, I came here, I had no student. I was loitering in the street. Nobody was caring for me. Now I have got hundreds and thousands of student. They can do whatever I order. So I did not pay them anything, neither I brought any money from India, but they are executing my order simply out of love. Is it not a fact? Because they have developed a love for me . . . the reason may be whatever it may be, but unless they have developed love for me, how they can execute my order without any personal profit? Therefore this is first thing required, that religion means to abide by the orders of God. Simple thing. And this obedience to the laws of God will be automatically performed if everyone loves his dormant love for God. We have taken this science. We are teaching everyone how to love God. If he thinks that, "I have learned to love God through some particular religion," we have no objection. Either he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim, or whatever he may be, if by executing the religious principles which he is professing he has developed his love of God, then we have nothing to preach to him. The result is there. But because we don't find the love of God is there, that we are putting a simple formula that "Here is the way." By utilizing or by accepting that way, he will very quickly love God. So if we—if we are convinced that to love God is religion, and that is our main business in the human form of life, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the genuine scientific movement. Everyone should take it. This is the position. But if somebody thinks that "My aim of life is different. I don't care for God," that is a different case. But our philosophy is, this human life is especially meant for developing that God consciousness or to know the art how to love God. Because the animals, they cannot. *I cannot preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy amongst the animals, because their consciousness is not so developed. But still, my movement is so perfect that I can do well even to the cats and dogs—by offering prasāda , by giving him chance to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . This vibration is transcendental. When it is chanted, it is good for everyone, all living entities. Therefore we go to the street and chant, so that everyone can hear the transcendental vibration. *So if it is accepted that religion means the law of God . . . is that accepted? Now we have to study what are the special laws of God and what is the nature of God. That is divine search. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand the nature of God, that He is the supreme father. Is there any objection? God is the supreme father. I think in Christian religion also they accept. Is it not? *Now, the supreme father says that all living entities, not only these human being or the civilized human being but even the animals, the trees, plants, the insects, birds, beasts, fishes or other aquatics—any living entity, even a small insect . . . living entity means who has got that vital force of moving. Some of them are not moving also, just like trees. They do not move, but still they are living entity. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand that all living entities, irrespective of bodily feature, they are sons of God. What do you think of this conception? Guest (1): I think it's probably . . . I think it's probably a better and more universal . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): . . . notion of life than . . . than you have in the somewhat more man*-centered Western philosophy of . . . Prabhupāda: That is defective. Guest (1): The problem, of course, is that you don't want man to somehow get lost in it all, but still I, yeah, where I am, I think that you would say . . . to agree with what you say . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . the universalism of it's very appealing. *Prabhupāda: No, we are not manufacturing this idea. That it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ (BG 14.4): in every species of life, whatever forms are there. And besides that, we take this body as dress. Just like your white shirt is not you. You are different from the white shirt. Similarly, one may have a body white or black, but he, as spirit soul, is different from the body. We are taking account of the person who is possessing the dress—not the dress, but the person. Just like I am talking with you, I am not talking with your shirt. I don't look to your shirt, whether you have put on a white shirt or black shirt. That is not my concern. I am concerned with you as a living being. This is our philosophy. We don't take account of the outward shirt and coat. This body, this gross body, is just like coat, and within this gross body there is subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. Within the subtle body, the spirit soul is there, and we are trying to deliver the spirit soul from these two kinds of entanglement, subtle and gross. That is our aim. The national movement or religious movement, that is more or less on the basis of the outward dress. One is Christian because he is born by a Christian father. Is it not? One is American because he is born on the land of America. We say that you are neither Christian nor American, Hindu, Muslim or Indian. You are servant of God eternally. Try to understand this fact, and make your life in that way. Then your life is successful. This is our . . . simple. Now what is your comment on this statement? Guest (1): I, uh, I'm enjoying everything you're saying, and I, I, I think maybe I should listen to some other questions now, to . . . Prabhupāda: So you are agreed to this? Guest (1): I, yeah, I like it. I like it. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Half*-agree. Half-agree. You "like" means half-agree. That's nice. Something is better than nothing. If it is half-agreed, that is better than at all not agreed, because . . . so what is the reaction of this statement of other boys and girls present here? You can tell? Devotee: I think that Prabhupāda solved all problems amongst all the people . . . (indistinct) . . . spirit soul. Guest (1): Are all spirit souls alike, or are they different? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): Are spirit souls alike, or are they different? *Prabhupāda: Alike. (laughter) The dress is different, the spirit soul is the same. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ. A learned, really learned man, he sees everyone on the same level, because he sees to the spirit, and he is giving that a learned Brāhmin , a dog, an elephant, a low-born, everyone is on the same category of spirit soul. That is the vision of a learned scholar. He does not make any discrimination that, "Here is a dog" or "Here is a very learned scholar." His vision is, the dog is also entangled by this body and a learned scholar is also entangled by this body, but both the dog and the learned scholar, both of them are spirit soul. That is actual vision. The same example: that I am talking with you, not with your dress. I am not very much concerned with your white dress or black dress. I am concerned with you as person. Similarly, we are concerned with the soul, not with the outward body. That is our position. Yes? *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our fully developed state in the spiritual sky, are we still one ten*-thousandth the size of a tip of a hair like we are now in conditioned state? *Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there, that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. *We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten*-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly, when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. *This body you will have to give up—today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. We have to give it up. The Bhagavad*-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti , "He comes to Me." So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant. Similarly, if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must develop our dormant spiritual qualities, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is the training period for going back to home, back to Godhead. So . . . but after giving up this body or after this time's death, others who are dying, they do not know what next life they are getting. They, although they are proud of education, but they do not discuss what is the constitutional position of the soul, how he is transferring from one body to another, how it is to be done. This science is unknown to the modern education. Is it not? They do not know. They simply speculate. That is the defect of modern educational system. And actually, everyone is seeking for spiritual emancipation. Therefore in your country, in spite of so many big, big universities, you are producing hippies, hopeless population. Am I saying right or not? Your are university teacher. I have seen in so many universities. Guest (1): I like my students. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): I like my students. I think they're on the right track. Prabhupāda: No. You like your students, I like your students more, because I do not wish to see them in such frustrated condition. That is my mission. I want to make them happy. So I want to give them this information of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that they may get back life. I have received thousands of letter, those who have come to this life from frustration, how they are feeling obliged to me. (break) Hmm? Guest (2): Prabhupāda? You said in, in the past lecture that, uh, for one who wants to take up bhakti , the work that you're engaged in does not stop. This has been a source of confusion for myself, maybe other people. Could you sort of delineate what it meant by this? Devotee (1): He said that when you take up bhakti , the work does not stop. So he's confused. (video start): Prabhupāda: No. Bhakti . . . therefore we are defining bhakti . Definition of bhakti , it means, That is bhakti . Try to understand what is bhakti . You are following me? Or you come here? You come forward? You come forward? Try to understand what is bhakti . Bhakti means we have no other desire than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti . Just like Arjuna. Arjuna satisfied Kṛṣṇa by fighting, and he became a bhakta . In the battlefield Arjuna was hesitating, that "What is the use of killing my own . . . own men, my family men, my brothers, my nephews, my grandfather?" all on the other side. And he was to fight with them, fight with them and to kill them. So he was hesitating. He was a warrior, a very great warrior. He knew that, "I fight, I shall kill them. Although they have come to fight with me, they do not know, but I know. They are my men, so why shall I fight with them? Let them enjoy. I don't want." That was Arjuna's feeling. *But after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā , when he came to the understanding it is his duty to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, so he sacrificed his own conviction that he would not kill this men. He satisfied Kṛṣṇa, by the same art. He was a warrior. So he did not change his position. *After reading (hearing) Bhagavad*-gītā , he did not become a Vedāntist or went away to Himalaya for yoga practice, and gave up the fighting, battlefield. No. He did not change. But he changed his consciousness. That is wanted. Our, at the present moment our consciousness is that we are working for our own sense gratification. When this consciousness will be changed, that we have to work for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, then our life is perfect. You haven't got to change your work or position. But when you understand that you'll have to work not for your personal sense gratification, but for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, that is success of life. But there is no question of changing your position. Changing your consciousness—that is success. Guest (2): Can I ask another question? Prabhupāda: First of all, this is clear? Guest (2): It's very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta does not mean that he'll have to change everything. No. He hasn't got to change anything. Simply he has to change his consciousness. That's all. This is bhakti —change, change his consciousness in favor of Kṛṣṇa. I am acting now, "I like this, to do." This is our position. "I like. I like to eat like this. I like to sleep like this." So present position, material position, means my liking, and spiritual position means Kṛṣṇa's liking. That's all. I agree to the Kṛṣṇa's like. Material position means I . . . I simply want to satisfy my liking. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to change this mentality, my liking, but to accept the principle of satisfying Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Can you get that light on. The other light. So bhakti means to act according to Kṛṣṇa's liking. Is it clear? Guest (2): It's clear. Prabhupāda: It does not mean change of place, change of occupation. Change of mentality. That's all Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . we're engaged in some occupation that Kṛṣṇa does not like? Devotee (1): What if you're engaged in some occupation which Kṛṣṇa does not like? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the Kṛṣṇa's representative: what He likes, what He does not like. Guest (3): We should accordingly give it up immediately? *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to accept spiritual master. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8). If the spiritual master is pleased, then you know Kṛṣṇa is pleased. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if spiritual master is displeased, then you know that Kṛṣṇa is displeased. You cannot be in contact with Kṛṣṇa at the present moment, in the beginning; therefore you require the help of Kṛṣṇa's representative to learn whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or Kṛṣṇa is not pleased. But your business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Guest (4): I'm not living in the temple now. I'm working and I'm married. So what should my activities be like? Prabhupāda: You should make your home a temple. What is the difference between temple and home? This is a temple. Next house is a house. This is also made of brick and stone; that is also made of brick and stone. But it is called temple, because here the business is Kṛṣṇa; and that is called house, because there is no Kṛṣṇa business. So if you make your house Kṛṣṇa business, then that is also temple. You do the same thing as the members here are doing—in your apartment, in your house, with your wife and children. You earn independently, spend independently; so do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then your house is temple. That, that we want. Here the temple means we are simply giving example how to live. So this example can be followed everywhere. *Every house can be turned into a temple. Here everything is Kṛṣṇa*-centered. Similarly, if at . . . in your home, you make Kṛṣṇa center, not you center, then your home is also a temple. (pause) Yes? Woman guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I understand Kṛṣṇa as being Supreme Controller of all activities that happen in this material world . . . Prabhupāda: I do not follow. I do not follow. Either you hear . . . Devotee (1): "I understand Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme Controller of all activities in the material world." Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman guest: . . . and so how can Kṛṣṇa allow animal slaughter and other such māyā's activities, to take place under His control? Devotee (1): "How can Kṛṣṇa allow animal slaughter and other activities of māyā ?" Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not allow animal slaughter. Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the father of every living entity." Just like father, he has got ten sons: some of them are like animals. But those who are advanced in knowledge, if such sons request the father that, "My other brothers are useless. Let us kill them and eat," will the father agree? Will the father say: "Yes, my . . . these sons are useless. You kill them and eat"? Will the father say? Woman guest: No. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has no sanction for animal killing. We are doing, violating the laws of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are becoming entangled in sinful activities. We are doing that. Kṛṣṇa does not sanction. Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā : These are the qualities to be developed. You cannot be violent. You cannot kill animals. This is violation of God's law. Just like in Bible it is stated, "Thou shall not kill." So those who are killing, they are violating the laws of God and become, I mean to say, liable to be punished, criminals. But, Kṛṣṇa does not say. The governments does not say that you kill your fellow man. If you kill, then you will be hanged. The government says. But when you kill your fellow man, it is your responsibility; it is not government's responsibility. Similarly, when you kill another fellow human being, that is your responsibility. It is not Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. (pause) Yes. Guest (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard different procedures for acquiring a name, Kṛṣṇa conscious name. What is the procedure now? . . . (indistinct) . . . has it changed and so forth ? Prabhupāda: Our procedure—we are asking everybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . That simple thing will help you in every respect. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually you will be enlightened in all other subject. And you will do it yourself. Make association with devotees. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . This is our procedure. *Guest (6): In your books you claim that we're in the Kali*-yuga age. Is the Kali-yuga age coming to a close now? *Prabhupāda: No. It will continue for another 427,000's of years. The age of Kali*-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that we have passed only 5,000 years. The balance is 427,000's of years. And it will become, the condition of society, world, will be worse. *Not better, but worse. In the last stage of Kali*-yuga there will be no food grains, no milk, no fruits. So very horrible time. People will kill their own children and eat just like animals. So the last stage of Kali-yuga it will be like that. So before coming to that stage, better to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to Kṛṣṇa. That is our position. We don't wish to wait for the worst thing. The worse things are already happening; and it will be still more worse. So instead of waiting up to that time, better be perfect by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our position. (pause) Yes? Devotee (2): As a devotee now that's in the temple, is it good consciousness, do you think, that Kṛṣṇa may be presenting many opportunities to serve, but I would prefer to do a particular thing that I like best, rather than consulting the authorities as to what should be done? Prabhupāda: Yes, what we are doing, you see; you do it. What should be done, that we are practically doing. You do the same thing. We are talking of Kṛṣṇa from so many books, we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, we are chanting of Kṛṣṇa, we are eating Kṛṣṇa's prasāda . Our whole day and night is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. This is to be done. Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Guest (3): Yes. I have some of them. Nitāi dāsa at Columbia, he sees that we are well supplied. Devotee (1): We have a college program there, Columbia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Nitāi is running. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. (pause) You can give these . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (to tape) Paul Valliere here. P. A. U. L. V. A. L. L. I. E. R. E Columbia University. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Jaya . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . just have a clean place like this which I am talking, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read all these books and try to inform your audience about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty. We can open a center anywhere, and anywhere will be pleased to hear about Kṛṣṇa. So it is not a difficult task. Simply the worker must be sincere; then everything is all right. Just like I came to your country alone. I had no friend. I was sitting alone on the Tompkinsons Square Park and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gradually they came. So similarly you can do. What is the difficulty? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . in Harlem three weeks ago. I wrote you a letter, but he didn't get it, telling all the things a lot of people are coming, people chanting in the streets . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. This process is already there. Simply we have to execute, that's all. It is not difficult, and it is not limited to any certain neighborhood or any kind of population. No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Devotee (3): As far as . . . there are two temples which are going to be in Harlem, for . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): There is two new temples being started; one in Harlem, and there is another one. The one in Harlem has authority. In other words, a qualified individual to, you know, carry out the prescribed activities that are supposed to be performed in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness temple. And the question was, was basically for this new temple that is being started, some authority to be recommended for that particular temple, to give a basic, you know, foundation in bringing, you know, the temple up to brahminical standards. Prabhupāda: This is a branch of ISKCON? That is authority. Devotee (3): Right. In other words, someone who, you know, is just like a temple president? Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you select amongst yourself. Who is more competent, elect him as president. Everywhere one must be leader. That you select your leader. As you select your President, similarly, you select your president in this connection. Devotee (3): So that would be bona fide, by, you know . . . (indistinct) . . . making. Prabhupāda: That, that man which is initiated. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The selected man must be initiated. Devotee (3): Right. Jaya . Jaya. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . excuse me 1:08:43 Prabhupada (SM Prabhupāda) I was wondering about that at the moment in several of our temples, we have . . . (indistinct) . . . city of Chicago. I was wondering, if in checking with the temple president, if it is his decision . . . Prabhupāda: To select a president means there must be discipline. Without obedience . . . without discipline, they cannot be obedience. Devotee (4): What I meant to ask was, what if the president at the other temple that I'm at now . . . (indistinct) . . . my services I'm more needed there. Prabhupāda: President is spiritual master's representative, that's all. Spiritual master is not present . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore one man is selected as president to look after the business on behalf of the spiritual master. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This Godbrother is in another temple, in Midwest, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And he says, "If my president says to stay and engage, should I leave and come to start this in Harlem?" Or should he stay in his present temple in Midwest? Prabhupāda: That you consider with the GBC member. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Consult GBC with this. Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, in . . . (indistinct) . . . only one of us was initiated at the time. And it is good to have initiated devotees to go in . . . go at the temple, to open . . . Prabhupāda: At least the president must be initiated. Devotee (4): So there is only one of us. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Two. Devotee (5): Two. Devotee: Three. There or four. Devotee (6): Me and . . . (indistinct) . . . are helping out one chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . and now one woman is giving her house, anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . so we are going to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The president may be initiated and start immediately. Maybe Ātreya Ṛṣi . . .? Devotee (6): He is initiated. Prabhupāda: Eh? He is initiated. Devotee (6): I'm initiated. I can be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Begin like that. Or some others who are qualified they can be also initiated. Qualification is that he must follow the regulative principles. That is the qualification. Yes? Devotee (7): I came to New York from Detroit, with recommendation from Bhāgavata dāsa . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (7): . . . to be initiated, I have my letter with me… Prabhupāda: So you will be initiated, that's nice. So anyone or any one of you, when you agree to follow the regulative principles, and if you are recommended by our men, then you can also be initiated. It is not difficult. Initiation is formality. First of all you have to decide whether you will abide by the rules and regulation and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is your consideration. You have to think yourself whether you are going to take seriously this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is your decision. Initiation is formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. So if you have understood the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, and if you have decided that you will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously and preach the philosophy to others, that is your initiation. My touching is simply formality. It is your determination that is initiation. Devotee (4): Like there was some difficulty that arrived in Cleveland temple with some of the . . . lacks in devotees there. Prabhupāda: Well, that is just due to lack of knowledge. You see? But after all, we are trained up in a different way. So these things will go on as you make progress. We should not be solving problems. Suppose . . . Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has instructed that we should be a little tolerant. Suppose if somebody treats you not properly because you have got a different skin. It is his ignorance, and it is your also ignorance when you feeling insulted. You should know that, "He has insulted my skin, not to me." Suppose if I say: "Why you have taken this blue shirt?" So I may say like that, but it is not very important to. You may take it blue shirt or a white shirt, it doesn't matter. You are eternally Kṛṣṇa's servant. If you keep that consciousness you won't feel insulted. This is socially going on in the material world; sometimes we cannot check it. So these are to happen; therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . (CC Adi 17.31). If you are to do business, then we have to learn how to tolerate. Devotee (4): So not only here in New York, but in the near future would it be all right to, to, ah, to be able to establish something in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Try. By that way you will be able to serve Kṛṣṇa very rightly and as soon as you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, your life is successful. That's all. Woman devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can we please you the most? Ātreya Ṛṣi: How can she please you most? (laughter) Prabhupāda: How do you want to please me? Woman devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will please me. Always, twenty*-four hours chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma. There is no expenditure. So Kṛṣṇa has given you the tongue, you utilize the tongue, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That will please me. Is that all right? (end) Room Conversation -- July 4, 1972, New York Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara is transcribing your talks with me in Māyāpur. Bob Cohen: I received your very kind letter about a week ago. *Prabhupāda: Now, you are very intelligent boy. You can try to understand this philosophy. It is very important. And try to preach. For sense gratification people are wasting so much time, but they do not..., they're not responsible what is going to happen next life. But there is next life. Foolish people, they are ignorant, but there is next life, and this life is preparation for next life. That they do not know. The modern education, universities, they're completely in darkness about this simple knowledge. We are changing body every moment-that's a medical science*-and after changing this body, we'll have to accept another body. How we are going to accept that body, what kind of body, this can be also known. Just like one is being educated, when he passes his examination, one can understand that he's going to be engineer or a medical practitioner. Similarly, in this life you can prepare yourself to become something next life. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Can we decide what we want to be in our next life? Prabhupāda: Yes, you can decide. Just like we have decided next life we are going to Kṛṣṇa. This is our decision: back to home, back to Godhead. Just like you become educated, after decision that you are going to be engineer, you are going to be medical practitioner, and in that objective you prepare yourself, educate yourself. Similarly, you can decide what you are going to do next life. If you don't decide, then material nature will decide. Just like a boy who is not nicely educated, without any future objective, the government will decide. If he's a criminal, then government will decide, "Go to jail," and if he's nicely educated, the government will decide, "You take this job." So everything is like that. We have got our future life, and if we don't prepare what is that future life, then we are like animals. The animals, they do not know. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Well how can I know if I wasn't Kṛṣṇa conscious in my last life... Prabhupāda: Huh? *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: If I... How can I know if I wasn't Kṛṣṇa conscious in my last life? Prabhupāda: Therefore you are given the chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Could I have been in my last life? Prabhupāda: You may not be. It doesn't matter. But you can become, take advantage of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Ātreya Ṛṣi: She's asking if it was possible in her last life she was a Kṛṣṇa's devotee, in her last life, and come back again? If you're a Kṛṣṇa's devotee coming back again. In your last... *Prabhupāda: When one is perfectly Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he may not come, but if there is little deficiency, then there is possibility of coming back. But even though there is deficiency, he comes back to nice family, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. (aside:) What is this? Human intelligence can decide for future. That is human intelligence. The animal cannot decide. We have got that discriminating power developed, "I shall do this, I will be benefited. If I do this, I shall not be benefited." This is there in human life. So we have to use it properly. We should know what is our goal of life and decide in that way. That is human intelligence. What is that? *Bali*-mardana: This is a photograph we've received of your Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bali*-mardana: Yadubara, I think he has sent many from the family collection of Lalitā Prasāda. The painters... Prabhupāda: So keep it and frame it, and keep it in my room. *Bali*-mardana: Should the painters, should they paint such uh, this type of pictures? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not. *Bali*-mardana: And they can distribute to the centers? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not all family members. *Bali*-mardana: Just... Prabhupāda: Simply Guru Mahārāja. *Bali*-mardana: All right. What about this of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Oh, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, but not that all family. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Have you ever seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: You have? Prabhupāda: Daily. Every moment. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: But not in the material..., not in the material body? Prabhupāda: Huh? No in... He has no material body. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Well in the temple here they have pictures of Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: That is not material. You are seeing material... *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Uh huh. Prabhupāda: ...because you have got material eyes. Because your, you have got your material eyes, you cannot see the spiritual form. Therefore He kindly appears to be in a material body so that you can see. This is the point. Because He has kindly made Himself just fit for your seeing, that does not mean He is..., that He has material body. Just like President Nixon, if he kindly comes to your house, it does not mean that his position and your position is the same. It is his kindness, out of love, he may come to your house, but that does not mean he is on the same level with you. Similarly, because we cannot see with our present eyes what is Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa appears before us as painting, as made of stone, as made of wood. And Kṛṣṇa is not different from these paintings and wood because everything is Kṛṣṇa. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: After we die, what happens to our spirit? Prabhupāda: You get another body. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Immediately? Prabhupāda: Yes. After your, just like you change your apartment, you fix up your apartment first, then you leave this and go there. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: But we won't, we won't know it. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: We wouldn't know it. Prabhupāda: Yes, you'll know it, provided you are qualified; otherwise nature will arrange for it. Those who know, they know what is there, but those who do not know, then nature will arrange. You do not know means you have not prepared your life, so accidentally, at the time of death, your mentality will create another body and nature will supply you. *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: I'm chanting. What does chanting do? Prabhupāda: That you can ask these boys. They will instruct you. Bob Cohen: Could you tell me what is the difference between, uh.... Kṛṣṇa controls everything, so how, how does Kṛṣṇa control a nondevotee? Prabhupāda: By māyā. By having... Just like government controls everything. A criminal is controlled by the police department. Bob Cohen: And how does Kṛṣṇa control a devotee? Prabhupāda: Just like you control your beloved. Just like you have got a beloved child. So you control him, for his benefit. If he's going to touch fire, you immediately say to him, "No, no, my dear child, don't touch it." So a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, devotee, he is never misled, because Kṛṣṇa is always guiding him, whereas those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they're in charge of māyā, and māyā will do the needful, as you have seen(?). Bob Cohen: Is is preset when we're born, the time that we'll die? Prabhupāda: Hm? Bob Cohen: Is the time that I'm going to die, and everybody going to die, is this preset before they're born? Do I have, when I'm born, do I have a certain given lifespan? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And he cannot change that? Prabhupāda: No. He cannot change, but Kṛṣṇa can change. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If he commits suicide, if somebody commits suicide, that is also preset? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not preset. That you can do, because you have got little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide. It is unnatural. So, because we have got independence, we can go from nature to unnature, and we shall be prepared for that. Just like a prisoner cannot go out of the prisonhouse naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away. Then he becomes again criminal, for farther (indistinct). Naturally, the prisoners cannot go out of the prisonhouse. Somehow or other, he manages to go out. That means he becomes again criminal. He will be again arrested, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more. So naturally we cannot violate the destiny, but if we do it, then we suffer(?). But our destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa when we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we do not do, but Kṛṣṇa will do. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: [Bg. 18.66] "I shall give you protection." So that change takes place for my protection by Kṛṣṇa. There are two stages: nondevotee and devotee. The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and devotee is under the direct control of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a big man. In the office there are many employees, they are controlled by different departmental superintendent. But the small man at home is controlling his children directly. The controller, he is controller both in the office and factory and home, but at home he is controller directly; *outside home he is controller indirectly. But he is controller always. Similarly, God is controller always. When one becomes devotee, he is controlled directly by God. When he is nondevotee, he is controlled by His agent, māyā. But he has to be controlled. Just like every citizen of America is controlled by the government. When he's all right, his civil department controls him. When he's not all right, then the criminal department controls him. But he cannot say that "I am not controlled." That is not possible. If somebody says, "I am not controlled," he is not sane. He is crazy. Everyone is controlled. So either you be controlled directly by God or you be controlled by his agency. Being controlled by māyā, you spoil your life. That means you remain in the material existence, one after another. You simply change your body. But if you give yourself to be controlled by God, then after this body you go back to home, back to Godhead. Then your life is successful. You cannot be without being controlled. That is not possible. Therefore one who is intelligent, he puts himself under the control of God directly. That is intelligence. And that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many births of struggling, or speculation, one surrenders unto Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarva..., "Kṛṣṇa, You are everything. So I am.... Accept me. I am now fully surrendered unto You, and You control me." Because I am controlled. So, so long I am being controlled by these rascals, so there is no benefit. I'm controlled. I have been controlled by my senses. So under the control of the senses, I have served family, so-called family, society, country, nation, up to serving the dog, but nothing has given me the satisfaction. Therefore now I have got sense, good sense. I put myself under Your power. Instead of being controlled by dog, let me be controlled by God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have not seen, man, how he is controlled by a dog, in the street? The dog stops, passes stool. "Yes, I stand.'' Is it not? He's passing stool, his urine, and the master is thinking, "I am master," but he's being controlled. That is māyā. He has become servant of dog, but he is thinking that "I am master of dog.'' This is māyā. This is māyā. So unless one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, one cannot understand. We can understand that this rascal is being controlled by this dog, but he's thinking that he is the master. We can understand. What do you think? Does he not become controlled by the dog? Bob Cohen: It's very true. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob Cohen: That, it's very true. *Prabhupāda: But he's thinking that "I am master of the dog." A family man, he's controlled by his wife, by his children, by his servant, by everyone, but he's thinking, "I am master." President Nixon is thinking that he's master of his country, but he's controlled. At once he can be dismissed by the public, his servant. And he gets that position, placing himself that "I'll give you very good service. I shall be your first*-class servant.'' Therefore people vote, "All right, you become president.'' And he's advertising, "Re-elect me. Re-elect me.'' That means he is servant. But he's thinking, "I am master.'' That is the position. Māyā. One who is controlled by māyā, he's thinking himself master, but he's servant. And a devotee, he'll never think himself, "I am master." "I am servant.'' That is the difference between māyā and not māyā. He at least knows that "I am never master. I am always servant." But these rascals, they think that they are master when actually they are servant. That is the difference. That is the difference. When a servant is thinking, "I am master," that is called illusion. And when a servant thinks "I am servant," that is not illusion; that is mukti. That is liberation. Because he is not controlled by a false thought. Try to think about this subject matter. A devotee is never controlled by a false thought. He knows his position. Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti, liberation, means to be situated in his own constitutional position. That is called mukti, liberation. I am servant, so if I know that "I am servant," that is my liberation. And I am servant; if I think "I am master," that is his bondage. That is the difference between conditioned life and liberated life. So these Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee, they're always thinking that they are servants of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore all, they are all liberated. They haven't got to endeavor for liberation. They are already liberated, because they are situated in their constitutional position. They're not artificially thinking that "I am master." Otherwise everyone is thinking, "I am master.'' Everyone is thinking. That is illusion. You cannot be master in any stage of your life. You must have to remain servant. That is your position. But when one thinks artificially that he is master, that is his conditioned life. And when one voluntarily surrenders to the supreme master, that is his liberated life. The devotee hasn't got to try for liberation separately. As soon as he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative, he is liberated. Bob Cohen: Prabhupāda, people that engage in religions, like these Jesus freaks and other people, they claim that Jesus is guiding them. Can this be so? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they're not taking the guidance. Just like the Christians. Jesus guiding him, "Thou shalt not kill," but they're killing. Where is the Jesus guidance? Simply by saying, "I am guided by Jesus Christ," will do? "But I don't care for his words." Is that guidance? So nobody is being guided by Jesus Christ. They're falsely claiming. It is very hard to find out a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ's guidance is open there, but nobody is caring for him. They have taken Jesus Christ as contractor to take up their sins. That is their philosophy. They commit all kinds of sins, and poor Jesus Christ will be responsible. That is their religion. Therefore they say, "We have got very good religion. For all our sinful activities, Jesus Christ will die.'' Very good religion. They have no sympathy for Jesus Christ. "Once he has died for our sins, why should we commit again sins? Such a great life has been sacrificed for our sins.'' That is guided by Jesus Christ. But if you take it otherwise-"We shall go on committing all sins, and Jesus Christ has made contract that he'll nullify all my sins. Simply I go to the church and confess, and come back and again do all nonsense''*-do you think it is very goodly intelligence? Bob Cohen: No. Prabhupāda: That you... Actually one is guided by Jesus Christ, he'll get liberation, certainly. But it is very hard to find out a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ. Bob Cohen: What I think about is the Jesus freaks, the..., these people that, young people that have joined this Jesus movement, and they read the Bible very often, and they try to... Prabhupāda: But to read the Bible, but violate the Bible injunction, injunction. How they can kill if they are following the Bible? Bob Cohen: I asked one. They said..., he said he claimed that Jesus was also eating meat in the Bible. But I don't know. Prabhupāda: But that's all right. He, he may eat anything. He's powerful. But he has ordered, "Thou shalt not kill.'' You must stop killing. He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. You cannot compare with Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate Jesus Christ. You shall have to abide by his order. That is your position. Then you are guided by Jesus Christ. That is actually obedience. You cannot imitate. That is explained in Bhāgavata, that those who are īśvara, those who are empowered, they will do anything, but we cannot imitate. We have to abide by his order. "What he says to me, that I will do.'' You cannot imitate. If you say that "Jesus Christ ate meat,'' admitting that, in what condition he ate meat, if you do not know, then Jesus Christ is contradicting his statement. He's eating himself meat, and he's advising others not to kill. Do you think Jesus Christ is contradicting? Bob Cohen: No. Prabhupāda: He cannot do that. That, that is real faith in Jesus, that he cannot do that. So "Why he has eaten meat, he knows, but he has asked me not to kill. I have to follow it.'' That is real Christianity. You are not Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate. He has sacrificed his life for God. Can you do that? So why you (indistinct) imitate Jesus Christ? You are imitating Jesus Christ for eating meat. Why not imitate Jesus Christ, sacrifice your life for spreading God consciousness? What do you think, Kīrtanānanda? Devotee: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you preach, you can say all these things with so-called Christians. So what you are doing for God? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya [SB 10.33.29]. Just like sun. The sun is absorbing urine. Can you drink urine? If you want to imitate sun, "Oh, here is sun absorbing urine. Let me drink urine,'' can you? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. He is powerful. He can do everything. Therefore we cannot imitate Him. We have to simply abide by His order. That is real Christian. You cannot imitate powerful man. That is wrong. Just like in our Vedic literature there was a poison ocean. So what.... People became puzzled what to do with this*-this demigod. Then Lord Śiva said, "All right. I'll drink it.'' So he drank the whole poison ocean and kept it in his throat, nīlakaṇṭha. Now, you drink poison? Not the ocean. You drink one cup. So how you can imitate Lord Śiva? Lord Śiva never advised that we drink poison. So you have to abide by the advice, not by imitating, "Oh, Lord Śiva...'' Just like this LSD and marijuana, they say sometimes, "Lord Śiva used to smoke gāñjā.'' They say like that. But Lord Śiva drank the whole poison ocean. Can you do that? Lord Śiva's instruction should be taken. He says, "The best worship is to worship Viṣṇu,'' viṣṇu ārādhanaṁ param. When Śiva was asked by Pārvatī that "What method of worship is first-class?'' Then he said, "The first-class worship is worshiping Lord Viṣṇu.'' Viṣṇu ārādhanaṁ param. Tasmāt parataraṁ devi tadīyānām ārādhanam. He said the Viṣṇu worship is the best. There are many demigods, but he recommended, "Viṣṇu worship is the best.'' And the better than Viṣṇu worship is to worship Vaiṣṇava. Tadīyānām ārādhanam. Tadīyā means His servant, or one who is, or what is in relationship with Him. Just like we are worshiping this plant, Tulasī. We are not worshiping all plants, but because this Tulasī has very intimate connection with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, therefore we are worshiping. Tadīyānām ārādhanam. Similarly, anything who is intimately related with Kṛṣṇa, worship of that thing is better than worship of Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. Bob Cohen: Why is that? Prabhupāda: Hm? Bob Cohen: Why is that? Worshiping.... ? Prabhupāda: Because, because Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Just like if you have a dog, and some friends come and pats your dog, you become pleased. You become pleased, "Ah, he is my good friend.'' We see all (indistinct) come on, that some friend comes and friend's dog, the friend's (indistinct) "My, you have got a nice dog," your friend says. (laughter) Come on. (conversation in Hindi with Indian guests from Bombay for some minutes) *Bhakti*-devī dāsī: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Devotee: So Prabhupāda, you'll be leaving in about ten minutes. In ten minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes. I am ready. I can go. Kīrtanānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda's always ready. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: You're always ready. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have taken that, all bags and baggages, that's all right. I am ready. What is that Cleveland? Kīrtanānanda: That's, I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's a group in Cleveland, Ohio. Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: There is a colored lady who is leading a group, and they're dressing in dhotīs and saris, and uh, they're doing some... Prabhupāda: So you just train them. Kīrtanānanda: They're doing some disturbance to the temple there. And they are here. They've come to New York. Prabhupāda: Ah, so, what do they want? Kīrtanānanda: They want to see you. Prabhupāda: Why? He is not my student. So the GBC unders may see and do the needful. All affairs, how can I see everyone? Kīrtanānanda: No. You..., I don't think you should. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kīrtanānanda: You asked me what they wanted. Prabhupāda: Everyone wants, but how can I see everyone? (aside:) Give it to Śyāmasundara. Kīrtanānanda: So you will come for Janmāṣṭamī. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kīrtanānanda: Without fail. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nanda*-kumāra. Ask Nanda-kumāra. You have taken everything? Packed? *Nanda*-kumāra: Almost finished. I have about five or ten minutes left. Prabhupāda: Oh. So where is the key of the almirah? *Nanda*-kumāra: Uh, it's on the key ring. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got one? *Nanda*-kumāra: No. That turned out that that other key was the same make of key, but it didn't fit the slot. There was only one key. Prabhupāda: All right. Then where is the pen? *Nanda*-kumāra: That Gopāla Kṛṣṇa gave you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Nanda*-kumāra: I have that packed in your suitcase. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, preach.... Everyone is (indistinct). That Christian, "Oh what..., what Christian you are? You are disobeying the orders of Jesus Christ, and you (indistinct) a Christian." This is going on. We don't say that because you are Christian you cannot love God. We simply say that you are not following. If you follow, then you can learn also how to love God. I never said. So many questions are there. "By following Jesus(?), yes, we can attain perfection." Yes? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, which would you like to take? Prabhupāda: Any one will do. Devotee: So shall I take your passport now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: And health card? Prabhupāda: Yes. So here is my passport, and here is my health cards. Is that all right? Devotee: Yes. Śyāmasundara: This we have to turn in when leaving the country. *Bali*-mardana: Prabhupāda, can I offer you a fresh garland? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Thank you. It is too fresh. Devotee: Huh? Prabhupāda: Too fresh (laughter). Water. *Bali*-mardana: Oh, I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now, you can take this. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you can take this. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. Where is Viṣṇujana? He can take this. Devotee: Viṣṇujana Swami. Prabhupāda: And if you can distribute among the others? Where is my, that wrapper? Yes. So the Deity is open? *Bali*-mardana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So I'll go and see the Deity, and from that door I shall get out. *Bali*-mardana: I see. I'll arrange. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Ready? Devotee: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So ask them to keep my one cloth out; otherwise I may require in this at least one sweater, one wrapper. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So is that our version about Christianity is all right? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Wonderful, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh, where is Christian? Simply by saying that "I am Christian..." Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is no Christian. Prabhupāda: There is no Christian. Otherwise there is no difference between Christianity and our philosophy. They're Christian; we're Krishnian. And Christ comes from the word Kṛṣṭa. So if they actually follow the commandments given by Lord Jesus Christ, the world will change, immediately. Devotee: Is that so... Prabhupāda: Unnecessarily, false argument. Even Jesus Christ ate meat, you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, our best, I have found that the best argument is, you practice. Proof. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I shall go? No. Devotee: A few minutes, I think, 'cause they are still packing. Prabhupāda: All right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of these religions have produced a sannyāsī. Prabhupāda: Hm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: None of them. A person who is detatched from material life. Jayādvaita: I was reading in the Bible... *Prabhupāda: Therefore I refused this Bhāgavata reader. He wants to come here, and no, we don't want these professional men. We want men who have sacrificed their life for God. We want such men, not professional. The so*-called priests, they are professional. They are earning money. That's all. Just see, they, how the karmīs are earning money by their business, and it has become a business. Everywhere, religion has become a business. Devotee: They perform some charity, that's all. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: They just perform some char... Prabhupāda: What charity they can do? We also, a "loophole," that's all. We are making charity. Jayādvaita: I was reading in their book, the Bible... Prabhupāda: And they're playing, gambling. Devotee: Yes. In the church. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotees: Bingo. Prabhupāda: Bingo. Jayādvaita: I was reading, they prescribe..., the book prescribes all our principles. Prabhupāda: And five hundred, five hundred priests are in hospital for, for their drinking habit. Five hundred or five thousand? You know that? Yes. Brahmānanda gave me a cutting from newspaper, that five hundred or five thousand priests are in the hospital to cure of their drinking habit. Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand? Prabhupāda: Huh? Kīrtanānanda: Probably five thousand. (indistinct) five hundred. Prabhupāda: Huh? They're drinking, they're eating meat, they're gambling and they are having illicit sex, and they are preaching. And we say, "First of all stop these things, then claim yourself to be religious, or God conscious." You cannot indulge in all these things. (aside:) Oh, you have kept my one cloth outside? Devotee: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's outside. Prabhupāda: Because I may require in the.... So, we don't want to enter into arguments, but we must know, but if somebody comes to argument, we have to say. What can be done? We say that "You follow Christianity in perfect order, you'll be benefited." That we say. Our test is whether you're advancing in God consciousness. That is our test. You follow Christianity or Muhammadanism, anything you follow, we don't mind. Whether you are developing your God consciousness, love for God, that is our test. But if your process has failed, then you can try this. And you'll see, in our process within so short time, how they are becoming God conscious. You have to admit. And they admit also. Viṣṇujana: They're not getting any young priests. Prabhupāda: Huh? Viṣṇujana: They're not getting young priests. Only this movement is getting young priests. Prabhupāda: Yes. Very young. Just from the womb of the mother. (laughter) Yes? Devotee: (indistinct) go Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm ready. (break*-conversation in car) That building is Empire Building? Devotee: Yes. Empire State Building. Devotee (2): These are now world's biggest, these buildings here, those big square ones. (World Trade Center buildings). Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): They're much taller than the Empire State Building. [break] Devotee: It's called... *Bali*-mardana: ...your flight. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bali*-mardana: Luggage is arriving a little bit later, different flight. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bali*-mardana: There was not time to get it on the plane. Prabhupāda: But, uh, tickets? *Bali*-mardana: He has the tickets. Prabhupāda: I can give you that also. (japa) (end) Room Conversation -- July 5, 1972, London Prabhupāda: You understand what is Kesav? Kesav is saffron. Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: You know saffron? When you prepare milk from Swamiji, you bought ginger powder, put a little, and little saffron. Devotee: Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: And sugar, and heat it, and keep it some time, and then properly mix it, and then not very cold or anything. Little how you'll give it to him and that will improve his digestion. Because this (indistinct) won't be there, due to itch. (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Our example, gosāi, gosvāmī all the gosvāmīs, let me speak in English. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: The gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, they're nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **. Sumati Morarjee: Hm. *Prabhupāda: Nidrā āhāra vihāra, nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca rādhā-kṛṣṇa-padāravinda-bhajanānandena mattālikau. Āhāra nidrā vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was, at that time, 500 years ago, his father's income was 12 lakhs of rupees. Sumati Morarjee: I know Jīva Gosvāmī, Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, or Rūpa, Sanātana. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana was minister, minister. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. And that you know, those other two also, what is their name? They were also very high up. Prabhupāda: Rāmānanda Rāya? Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Rāmānanda Rāya. Prabhupāda: He was governor. Sumati Morarjee: And Ācārya? Prabhupāda: Yeah, Bhaṭṭa, Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sumati Morarjee: Hm. Prabhupāda: You have read in my books, *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, also Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, Caitanya's life, and all that, it is written by (indistinct) brahmacārī. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: I have read that. Prabhupāda: Ah, (Hindi) Sumati Morarjee: (Hindi) Devotee: We stayed in his āśrama in (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Ah, so... Devotee: ...brahmacārī's āśrama. Sumati Morarjee: (Hindi exchanges with Śrīla Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, show him... Devotee: *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Prabhupāda: Our latest can be (indistinct). All the books. You have got this book? Sumati Morarjee: No. (Hindi exchanges) Prabhupāda: ...very strong heart attack in N.Y., I fell down, heart attack. (Hindi exchanges) Therefore I am asking them. So, some gentlemen here, they say that you try, money will be raised here. It will be not difficult. So I'm asking that find out some place. Sumati Morarjee: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Three million pounds. Sumati Morarjee: Pounds. Devotee: Two and a half million pounds. Prabhupāda: Still it is open. Devotee: No, no, it's (indistinct) to the business man. We, we offered one and a half million pounds, and it went to the business man for two and a half million pounds. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: They asked 3 million. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: They asked for 3 million pounds, and they got two and a half million for it. (indistinct) half million pounds. Devotee (2): It's just around the corner. Devotee: It's a very nice place, but I couldn't... Devotee (2): So Mataji, if some of these books she hasn't got, we can give her. She's a life member. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, just now I am. Prabhupāda: She is life, she is life after life. (laughter) She is life after life member. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, but, I'll talk to this ah, Girirāja in Bombay, about becoming the patron myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: I said let us see. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) We, let us form a trustee, and you become president of the trust. (laughter) You become the president of the trustee, and do the needful. Sumati Morarjee: You know, just now that your... Prabhupāda: So, whether you agree to this or not? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately, make her the president of the trustee, or Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: No, you see. Prabhupāda: Girirāja is also very nice boy. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, everyday he is there, because he says I want you. Prabhupāda: You liked him? Sumati Morarjee: He's a good man. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Sumati Morarjee: I want your advice. So first day I called him, he came. I said, you I don't want. Where is that Śyāmasundara? (laughter) . Prabhupāda: His father is very rich man. Sumati Morarjee: Is he? Prabhupāda: His father is a very big lawyer, and mother, father, both came to me Calcutta. Mother, after all mother, she was crying, that give me back my boy (laughter) . You can take away your boy. So anyway, they are very good gentlemen. So, but he has he's graduate in psychology. He's learned. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, he's a very nice man. So I asked him just now, I'm running a school. I said you come and, uh, give lecture, mean some stories... Prabhupāda: Why don't you give some fruits? Sumati Morarjee: ...to the children. No, I will take this, you give me a piece of paper, can you? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll take this for the children. Devotee: Isn't there some prasāda also, that's still out there in the... Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Immediately, write one letter to Girirāja that, uh, I suggest some names for becoming trustee, or you can suggest some of the life members you know. Sumati Morarjee: I know so many, but.... (Hindi exchanges) Prabhupāda: ...maybe Paris. Maybe Nairobi. Then either Los Angeles or to India. Sumati Morarjee: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi), because whatever that Māyāpur.... You have been in Nava, Navadvīpa? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have been to Navadvīpa, Māyāpur, Śāntipura, then that Katwa, all those places I have visited. Prabhupāda: So, Māyāpur we are constructing a big temple. And Vṛndāvana also. So, for maintenance of the temple perpetually, I want to purchase some property in Los Angeles, because here, Los Angeles, property gets nice income. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: Los Angeles. Sumati Morarjee: Good income? *Prabhupāda: Yes, because any ordinary room is about a hundred twenty*-five dollars. So a hundred twenty-five dollars in our Indian exchange is about thousand rupees. So, thousand rupees, two rooms, who will pay in India? Sumati Morarjee: No, nobody will pay. Prabhupāda: (laughter) No one will pay. So then therefore I thought that to purchase one, two house, so that as Vṛndāvana property, because I am maintaining now the whole institution by begging. But when Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa deities are there, there is no income. Sumati Morarjee: No, there won't be any ... both places... Prabhupāda: In Bombay we can go to you..."Mataji we have no more money, please give me some." Sumati Morarjee: No, that is different, but these things... Prabhupāda: Yes, so, but Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa I want to make some provision. So I'm negotiating for that. This is one business. So Bombay.... (Hindi exchanges) Huh? Sumati Morarjee: Of course, you won't get so much rent for London properties. They're also very much appreciated. Prabhupāda: London property is very costly. Sumati Morarjee: Oh very costly, but they're day by day, appreciating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: Doubled, in one year it's doubled. Sumati Morarjee: No, no. 40 percent has gone up in a year's time, on one property. Prabhupāda: Because the Indians are coming. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, they'll (indistinct) all the property. Prabhupāda: (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: And started taking all the shops. All the cinema theatres. Prabhupāda: And London is practically no Indian. Sumati Morarjee: I always say that I see more Indians in London than (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (Hindi exchanges) Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so much prasāda. Devotee: Oh, we have prepared just a little for you. Sumati Morarjee: All right. I'll say you can send it back, because the children are at home. Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Sumati Morarjee: I'll take, send you back your results. Did he give you (indistinct). Prabhupāda: So he'll give you some paper, you'll wrap it. Devotee: Here's a bag... Sumati Morarjee: So, now what, what is your problem? Ah, this is better. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) This boy, he's president of, of my Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: So what does he want? Prabhupāda: He wants to give me some car. (Hindi exchanges) Sumati Morarjee: So ask, you write to me a letter in Bombay, India address. There's such and such car, so when is the ship due in Detroit. And then I will let you know, finding out the whole (indistinct), because UK office doesn't know the movement of the American ships. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: It's only Bombay who, which knows. So you write me in a letter to Bombay. Prabhupāda: When everything is settled up. Sumati Morarjee: When you are settled, when is the ship due, and we want to send. So, there won't be any trouble in port? Prabhupāda: That he'll clear up. Sumati Morarjee: You better clear first. Devotee: Yeah... Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise what happens. Devotee: Kṣīrodakaśāyī knows. Sumati Morarjee: Government of India doesn't allow any import of car in India, otherwise (indistinct). Prabhupāda: His, his admission is that I am the guru of the Americans. I have no car. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: I know. But if, how, you have to take either through the American embassy permission or government of India's permission is needed. Devotee: Yes, but Prabhupāda is an alien registered as living in the United States, so he can take his personal car. Prabhupāda: I am immigrant, I am immigrant, and I think I heard that one who has lived in America more than three years, he can take. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes you can bring car. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is the law, I think. Sumati Morarjee: So you can find out all this from India office. Yes. Devotee: Yeah, Gurudāsa can do that. Sumati Morarjee: And then will give you in Indian High Commission all details. Prabhupāda: Another, another is that we get some incense imported from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: I know. So what is that incense? Devotee: Punks, punks. Prabhupāda: Punks. Devotee: Just a rink. Sumati Morarjee: Can you show me. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Show me some. Prabhupāda: Show, show, spiritual... Sumati Morarjee: I know, we also use that incense, but uh, I don't know the name of it. Prabhupāda: So, kindly get them carried from Hong Kong to Los Angeles. Sumati Morarjee: So let us see. Devotee: They're punks, without any scent, and then it... Sumati Morarjee: I know it (indistinct). Devotee: And when they come here, then they dip them into oil and make a scent. Prabhupāda: Anyway... Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You get from Hong Kong... Sumati Morarjee: And take where? Prabhupāda: Huh? Take to Los Angeles. That is a ... Sumati Morarjee: No, but one thing, if it is brought to Bombay, via Hong Kong, then we can send it to Los Angeles, by ship. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: By ship we can send it. Prabhupāda: Your ship does not go to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Sometimes it goes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: So, at that time it is handed over to Hong Kong ship. It will be delivered in Bombay. Then we reship it to Hong Kong, to Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Is that on a regular basis, that it goes to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, mostly. I'll let you know, because that service is also Bombay. These people, they don't know. So you can write one letter for this car, and another letter for this. So they're not intermixed. Prabhupāda: Yes, all right. Scindia Steam Navigation meant for carrying Kṛṣṇa conscious.... (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That was written in the beginning. Sumati Morarjee: Ah (laughter) Prabhupāda: I think it was done by, at your expense. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That small pamphlet. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Scindia Steam Navigation Company carries Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to western countries. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. She's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. In her office, there is Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is our especially, our worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and they belong to Bhāratia Community. They're all Vaiṣṇava. The whole, I have to say, Viṣṇu Svāmī Sampradāya, or Vallabha Ācārya. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, Vallabhācārya. Prabhupāda: They're guru. Sumati Morarjee: Vallabhācārya is our guru. *Prabhupāda: So, they, they're originally all Vaiṣṇava family. All Vaiṣṇava family, Bāla*-Kṛṣṇa. They are worship of Bāla-Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Devotee: I have that Gujarati Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we're printing the Gujarati Back to Godhead. Sumati Morarjee: What? Let me, what is it? Prabhupāda: We have got some, giving, give her that. Sumati Morarjee: This is from (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes, we get from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: Hong Kong. Why, is it good? Prabhupāda: No, it is not good. It is wrong. That we sent it... Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: ...different, in different way. Devotee: They dip it into oils. Prabhupāda: Scented Oil. That's... Sumati Morarjee: Ah, and then it becomes... Devotee: They're known as firelighters, because sometimes thy used them for lighting fireworks. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Oh, I know now, I understand. So you can present, tell me. Yes, this is (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: So you, you have started? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have started. Devotee: It's printed in Bombay. Sumati Morarjee: Where. Devotee: In Bombay. Prabhupāda: Recently. Devotee: This is the first one. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, because I have not seen it. Devotee: This is the first issue. Prabhupāda: This is the first issue. They have sent one copy. Yes. Sumati Morarjee: So, Swamiji, can I take this? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you can take. Sumati Morarjee: So you must, you (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ah yes, here (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: And this also, so I will always remember that I've been in London to meet Swamiji, my, Swamiji's godson. Devotee: And you also (indistinct), board of trustees. Prabhupāda: You president, you give her this garland. Sumati Morarjee: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: But did you put 'round Swamiji's head? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Then I can take prasāda garland of Swamiji. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee 2: Jaya, haribol. Prabhupāda: You consider Śrīmate Morarji as mother of the Institution (laughter) . Devotee: And you're our father (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Because, you see today, then Swamiji was in so much trouble, I still remember. He wrote to me some letter from America, that I am sitting in the Central Park, all alone (laughter). Devotee: Daddy can't be alone. You've got so many students, you have no time... Prabhupāda: I was going to your agent's office, Battery... Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Battery Place. Prabhupāda: Seventeen Battery Place. Sumati Morarjee: Yeah, seventeen Battery Place. Prabhupāda: So I was asking him, "find out when Scindia Navigation is going back.'' He said such and such date. All right. Then I thought, Let me stay another month, what I can do. then again I was going. He said such and such date. All right. Then I thought, let me stay another month, what I can do. Then again I was going... Sumati Morarjee: To find out. Prabhupāda: Find out (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know. Prabhupāda: ...so he said, "Swamiji, you are coming to find out but you are not going back, what is?'' (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know, there was one old man, now he has died, who used to look after all service in that office. So he wrote to me, that "this Swamiji wants to come, what to do?'' I said, "Yes, whenever he wants to..." Prabhupāda: I got return ticket. Sumati Morarjee: "Yes, so you send him back, if he wants to come, but see that a good captain is on the ship." Then, uh, then (indistinct) came to Bombay, then Swami doesn't come. I said, "Now he won't come'' (Śrīla Prabhupāda laughs) And also give me Swamiji, that Gujarati... Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, yes. *Devotee: Remember you were asking me just a few days ago about Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I (indistinct). I heard Swamiji, you know, came to my house to read. Rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: That is supposed to be the... Prabhupāda: Now, when I shall go to Juhu, I shall regularly begin all Bhāgavata. Sumati Morarjee: I want to hear, Swami. Prabhupāda: Yes, all Bhāgavata. *Sumati Morarjee: And you know, rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya is really the pañca-prāṇa of Bhāgavata, otherwise it is all right. There is nothing important. That is the real soul of the Bhāgavata, the rāsa-pañca-adhyāya. Prabhupāda: You have got duplicate copies of this? Sumati Morarjee: Have you got? Otherwise don't give me. Devotee: Yes, I have some copies I brought. Prabhupāda: All right, then (indistinct) Sumati Morarjee: He has come from there? Devotee: Myself? I just came from Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: Detroit. And this Swamiji from where. Guest: I'm staying here, in London. Sumati Morarjee: No, but you come from where? Prabhupāda: He's from America. Guest: From California. Sumati Morarjee: All from California? Devotee: He travels around England and preaches in all the villages, small towns. Sumati Morarjee: Where's that? Devotee: Here, in England, Scotland. Guest: I also met you in Bombay once. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have seen you in Bombay. And what about you? Devotee: I'm Scottish. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, because you look... Prabhupāda: In Edinborough we have got a temple. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nice temple Sumati Morarjee: This Swamiji's from there. Devotee: This place has sent a Muslim, Pakistani family. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so you have come from Pakistan. Devotee: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Which side? Devotee: Lahore (indistinct) Sumati Morarjee: I've been to Lahore. We had a very big office in Karachi. I've been to (indistinct) so many time. Next to, you know the (indistinct), the office area. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of Pakistan now? Sumati Morarjee: Today that Bhutto is come and gone. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: You know he has left for today for Pakistan back. He came to see the Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Here? Sumati Morarjee: No, our Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Oh, our Prime Minister. Sumati Morarjee: And they were both (indistinct) for four days, five days, and then they discussed various thing, and now they have come to an understanding that everything must be mutually done, and with the (indistinct), and they have to be... Prabhupāda: So, what is the use of keeping Pakistan? Let it, let, let, let them have another. Sumati Morarjee: I know, I know, but what about this Bangladesh also, you'll have to. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: Do something, because I met so many people from Bangladesh they were completely subverting our culture. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: That's, we're going there next month. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. I think you remember him. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, very well. Devotee: He's got his visa now, he's taking a party there, to Bangladesh. Sumati Morarjee: Very good, but I hope they put, don't put you somewhere. That's not a very... Prabhupāda: Ah, reliable, I say. You have your office in Dacca? Sumati Morarjee: Huh? Prabhupāda: Dacca? No? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, our office used to be. We had property. We have lost about twenty*-six lakhs of rupees with both sides of Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Oh, you had to close your office? Sumati Morarjee: We had our own (indistinct), our own house in Chittagong, then our offices, then (indistinct), and our manager he was interned, and we (indistinct) in Karachi also. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: We had big property in Karachi. Prabhupāda: So, so they cannot return. Sumati Morarjee: They're not returning anything. With great difficulty. I put up a fight with the British to get back my ship with that interned one passenger. Prabhupāda: Yes, that scrap I saw when I was going. Sumati Morarjee: Yes. Prabhupāda: We met on the way. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: And that ship was returned. Sumati Morarjee: That was returned. So that I put pressure on the British. That's how we got back the ships. Otherwise we would have lost those two ships. Prabhupāda: They're very uncultured. Sumati Morarjee: Very, very uncultured. And he came to see the Prime Minister, he brought all his sons, all his daughters, whole family he brought, to Bhutto. Because Bhutto, he is from Junagar, I know him. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is Gujarati? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, he is Gujarati Muhammedan. He is from Junagar. His father... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) was also. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, (indistinct) was from Junagar, Bombay, but this Bhutto 'till he went away, he was in Junagar. His father, son was Bhutto, was the (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just see. Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) brought up in United, he was in Bombay all these, he's educated in Bombay. Devotee: Juna, Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Junagar. Prabhupāda: No, no, Junagar is a city. Sumati Morarjee: You know in Saurastra. Prabhupāda: Saurastra. Devotee: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: There, he was born, bred, educated. He is from Bombay and Junagar, Saurastra. Like (indistinct), (indistinct) last time before Pakistan came to my house, we were old friends, so he came to my house, so I... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) was older than you. Sumati Morarjee: Oh? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, he was a (indistinct) Sumati Morarjee: I know, and he was a communist member before. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Home (rule) and all that. He was the man. So I knew him some many years. So he came to see me, and I talked to him, at that time, you know, his position had become very bad. so he said that I started talking to him English, he said why do you talk to me in English? You talk to me in Kachi. We have common language. I thought you forgotten. He said (indistinct) at that time (Śrīla Prabhupāda laughs). And after that, you know, he, this movement of Pakistan, and India became very strong and he went away. Prabhupāda: He was, he was paid for that running on the League of... Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Prabhupāda: This all Englishmen subscribes. Sumati Morarjee: Because you know is the policy divide and rule. Prabhupāda: Yes, that was it. (indistinct) was made. Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise, nobody will do anything. So, I won't take your time Swamiji. Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down. Sumati Morarjee: Because you are tired, oldly. I'm going to preserve this mālā. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: I put it, give it to my daughter. She is very fond of roses. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes Sumati Morarjee: Oh yes, she's crazy... Prabhupāda: How old is she now? Sumati Morarjee: She's ten. Today I'll, starting today in the afternoon, I remembered so much that I wish Swamiji was here, she gave a Manipuri dance recital in our office, and became Rādhā. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Sumati Morarjee: You know, aṣṭa nāyaka. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Sumati Morarjee: So the eighth nāyaka she became. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: Rādhā getting angry with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So there are other ones also. Sumati Morarjee: Hum? Prabhupāda: Other girls? Sumati Morarjee: No, she was alone, but the offices, we wanted to see. So I said all right, we had tape, so she does dance on that, and the other one is (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Acchā. Sumati Morarjee: Two things she did. So I remembered so much. Prabhupāda: Just see how this girl is being trained. So similarly you are teaching our students, small children, we have ordinary school at Dallas, to, because these boys and girls they're having children, they're being trained up. We are creating a new generation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: I tell you, we have got a very good Manipuri teacher. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: Last year I was in Manipura, I took this girl with me, my (indistinct), and I stayed there eight days went to Govinda's temple and all these places. Prabhupāda: I, we cannot pay, we have no money. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. If these girls come to my school. I will teach them this dance. Prabhupāda: Where is your school? Sumati Morarjee: Oh, just opposite to you, my house. Devotee: (indistinct) to the temple, Juhu. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Sumati Morarjee: This small girl, whatever you have got, they can come twice or four or four times, three times a week. This Manipuri girl comes. Prabhupāda: No, we are opening here in America, one school for training small children to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, so I told Swamiji. This Girirāja to come to our school, and tell them all my political stories, and tell them make them (indistinct) and all that. I hope he has started. Devotee: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is your name? Sumati Morarjee: His name is Mr.Girish Joshi. He is from Dacca. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, in future, in Joshi family Lord Kṛṣṇa will appear as Kalki. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so here is Joshi. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is named there in the Bhāgavata, Viṣṇu Joshi. The father's name of Kalki is Viṣṇu Joshi, and He'll appear in Śambhala, Śambhala. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know that. Temple. Prabhupāda: Heh? Sumati Morarjee: In, near Purī, there is a place, I forget the name, and in that they're building a temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: When Kalki avatāra, they've built a very big, huge big temple, when Kalki, without any (indistinct). When Kalki avatāra takes place, Jagannāthaji will come there, from the Purī temple, and they will be worshiped... Prabhupāda: But that is after four lakhs of years. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I don't know that, (indistinct) (laughter) I, this time, I asked, I said Jagannāthaji has got, then, No, when the Kalki avatāra takes place, there is a Śambhala town somewhere near, small village, and... *Prabhupāda: So you'll not remain here after Ratha*-yātrā. *Sumati Morarjee: No, I have my company's Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: At home. Prabhupāda: I see. Sumati Morarjee: So I today only wrote a very big letter what to do, how to do, I'll go there. Prabhupāda: At Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, my house. Prabhupāda: I see. *Sumati Morarjee: So (indistinct) Ratha*-yātrā. My (indistinct) must be waiting. Prabhupāda: It is taken outside, No. Sumati Morarjee: No, inside, in the house. Prabhupāda: Within the compound. That's right. *Sumati Morarjee: Here I have seen Ratha*-yātrā, the first time in (indistinct). I had no idea. That day I arrived (laughter) . So I said, "What is all this?". There were so many people and all animal and all that, what is coming? So then I saw Ratha, I said, "This is Ratha-yātrā", near this place. Devotee: Marble Arch? Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. I was passing Marble Arch, I (indistinct). I saw all the people. I said what, then I found out, I thought... Prabhupāda: In San Francisco, we hold, very gorgeous. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Three rathas. Sumati Morarjee: I have seen those pictures. *Prabhupāda: Three rathas, and thousands of.... oh, they're very much, I mean, enthused to take prasādam and dance. So this year they asked me to come here. Therefore I have come to see the Ratha*-yātrā, how they... Sumati Morarjee: But, ah, you will be here in October? Prabhupāda: Ah, maybe. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, if you are here, you, you must write to me about Swamiji's program. Devotee: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: So if you are here, I'll be here by 6th, 7th of October, because 10th is my meeting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: In London. So I will take your.... Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Jaya, jaya, Sumatiji ki jaya. All glories to Sumatiji (laughter) . Sumati Morarjee: All glories to Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: (Hindi) So you write to me about this Hong Kong. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And for you becoming the president of the Trustee, I shall write to Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you write to Girirāja, and we will discuss ourselves. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: So much. Prabhupāda: Yes, take it. She can take whole... Sumati Morarjee: I'll take and then... Prabhupāda: She'll return the pot. Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Jaya! Go with, go with, take this, take this, help her. No, he'll help her... Devotee: Do you know how old she is Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Maybe over sixty. Devotee: She's very much alive, so much alive. *Prabhupāda: Her father was one the richest men in Bombay, and her husband, her father*-in-law also one of the richest men. There're coming from very rich family in Bombay. And she's so intelligent that Scindia Steam Navigation Company, very big company. It is a semi-government, and she's the managing director. All the big, big officers respecting as mother, carries out her order. And she's great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, but she does not take leave with her husband (laughter). Hm? The husband and wife, not very agreement. Yes. Devotee: Her husband is alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. They live separate building. That mean, that they live separate building, separate (indistinct), she looks one department of business, and he looks another department. That child, adopted. She has no, own child. Devotee: Oh. Devotee (2): So, perhaps she's ship the punks, and the vehicle. Prabhupāda: And the car also. And I've asked her to become the president of the trustee for construction of Bombay. She has agreed. Devotee: What will the business of the trustees be? Prabhupāda: Heh? Devotee: What will their business be as trustees? Prabhupāda: To raise fund. Devotee: Hm? *Prabhupāda: Raise fund. We approach these person for raising fund, that's all. Not for taking any lesson from them. ...Now, to have a temple here, we shall hold a meeting on the Indian gentlemen to raise the fund. You find out some place, immediately, so that while I am remaining, by performing Bhāgavata*-saptāha, I'm influencing the Indian rich men here, they can purchase.... She will also contribute for.... October, July, August, September, October. So the negotiation will go on for at least three month, in the meantime she will come. She will also contribute. I have already given her hint. She agrees. So let us find out some nice place. Devotee: You won't be here that long Śrīla Prabhupāda. You're going to be leaving on the 20th, and... Prabhupāda: No, I may come back. Devotee: You may come back? Prabhupāda: Yes, finish the business. Devotee: Would you like myself or Haṁsadūta to stay here and help with this building? Prabhupāda: Yes, all together. Devotee: I was thinking of going to Paris, but I'll stay for a while and help here. Prabhupāda: Paris is not far off. You can go and come. Devotee: Go and come. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Devotee: Yeah! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Instead of becoming empty, it is better too crowded. Our building, in the morning it was, there was no place to bow down. It was just match box packed up. Devotee: Yeah, that's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: That is because all the devotees are here from all the temples, but still... Prabhupāda: Could not (indistinct). That is good. And it is always like that. Devotee: No. Devotee (2): Well, like I say, all the devotees are here from all the temples in England, so Edinborough and Manchester, they're all here too, but always it is crowded, and uh, on Sunday's it's no good at all because so many people come, they can't even come in to see the Deities, you know. They can't fit all in the temple, and uh, and we don't advertise the Sunday feast. If we advertise the Sunday feast, we couldn't get them in the whole building. So we can't even advertise. So therefore they don't even mention it, people still come, and we can't fit them all in the building. And we're hoping that it would get so full that Kṛṣṇa will see and he'll give us a place quickly. Prabhupāda: Give her some position, and she's very influential, rich. But everyone wants some post, that is natural. Therefore I told, offered her the presidency of Bombay Trust. To raise the fund. In Bombay we have got very nice place. The best place of anywhere. And it is so nice in summertime, you'll find in paradise. So many coconut trees. You have seen? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: And we are, Nara*-nārāyaṇa has been engaged to make it a nice garden. All vacant land, we are getting nice garden, and the owner of the land, he has given me the best facility. First of all, the land is worth minimum 30,000,000 rupees. Devotee: Thirty lakhs? Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs. But he has given me for fourteen lakhs. And that's also by instrument, in three years, or four years, without any interest... Devotee: Who is that man? Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair. Mrs. Nair. She is, she is also very nice devotee. So every year four lakhs of rupees, in three years, or four years, fourteen lakhs, without any interest. So we have got good facility. And in Vṛndāvana, some gentleman has given us the land. Devotee: Is the land in Vṛndāvana, is it in the city? Is it on the outside of Vṛndāvana, or is it in the city? Prabhupāda: No, it is just in front of Bon Mahārāja's college. Devotee: It's in Rāman Reti. Prabhupāda: (laughter) Best place in Vṛndāvana. All (indistinct). And we have got potential. There are so many buildings, they are not being properly utilized. If we want to, you can purchase the whole area. Devotee: How is the Gauḍīya... *Prabhupāda: Now you have got enough place in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa, in Bombay. There will be no difficulty if you go by thousands to India. You can live very comfortable. So you can go, purchase, you can go and come back. We saw that foreigners, they visit, and gradually, there will be unity between the so*-called Hindu, Muslim, all Kṛṣṇa's servant. This is the idea behind Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't believe in this skin disease. (end) Conversation with Sumati Morarjee -- July 11, 1972, London Sumati Morarjee: Kaise ho ap aj aye? Hume pata hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mujhe abhi bola inhone ke ap aj ane wale hai. Ap aj ane wale hai. Ye London me hi hai. (How are you, have you come today? I knew it . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me just now that you are going to come today. He is in London.) Prabhupāda: Accha, bohot khushi hui. Juhu to apka hi hai. (Okay. I am very happy to see you. Anyway Juhu belongs to you only.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha ji. Mai usko bulati hu na, apka waha Giriraj hai usko. To abhi duble kaise ho gaye? (Yes. I call him, your Giriraja who stays there. So how did you become so lean?) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . kha nahi sakte. Old liver ho gaya. Hajam nahi hota. (. . . (indistinct) . . . can't eat anything. The liver has become old. Digestion isn't functioning.) Sumati Morarjee: Kyu? To kya khate ho? Dusre kuch khate nahi?) (Why? So what do you eat then? Don't you eat anything else?) Prabhupāda: Zyada thoda fruit khate hai. Dusra khane se hajam nahi hota. Dudh pite hai. Dudh bhi thik hajam nahi hota. Gas ho jata hai. Wahi thoda bohot fruit . . . (I eat some fruits. Any other thing is not digestible for me. I drink milk but I cannot digest even that properly. Gas formation takes place. Little bit of fruits, that's all . . .) Sumati Morarjee: Ha wo to hai abhi. Nahi, bohot nahi hoga abhi. Gas ho jata hai. To ap dudh me wo kyu nahi dalte ho? (That is true. You can't digest too much milk. Gas formation takes place. So why don't you add something in your milk?) Prabhupāda: Kya? Kya? (What? What?) Dry powder or . . . ? Thoda sa. Jaisa pau, der pau. Accha. (Little bit. One glass, one and a half glasses.) Sumati Morarjee: Ek tukda adarak ka. Jab dudh garam karne ko rakhe to usko barikh karke ekdum . . . wo koi bhi, yaha nahi milta to dry. To usme thoda dalke ap shakkar dalte ho? Thodi si shakkar dalke usko garam karo. Aur usme apni ye masale jo haldi nahi ati nahi to kesar. Do me se ek. Wo dalke, aur thoda garam karke aur dhak rakho phir aisa bohot kuchalke aur phir chahiye to ap piyo sadharan garam. Ha bas ek glass dudh hoga . . . glass me kitna, ek chota sa yaha chimchi rehti hai na. Wo ye lete hai rai bhi. Nahi, mustard ke liye. Bas ek choti si chimchi andar ye daliye adarak, wo sukha powder aur thoda sa ye daliye kesar aur usko accha garam karke thodi . . . (One piece of ginger. When you put the milk for boiling, cut it into very fine pieces . . . anything will do, if it is not available here then dry powder can be used. So after adding it in milk, do you add sugar? Add a little bit of sugar and heat it. Then there are spices like turmeric or saffron. Any one between the two. Add it, then heat the milk and cover it, then you can crush it very nicely and drink the milk at a normal temperature. One glass of milk will do . . . how much, only one small spoon that we have. That we use to take mustard. Add one small spoon of ginger, that dry powder and saffron, then heat it nicely.) Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) You understand what is kesar? Kesar is saffron. Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: You know saffron? When you prepare milk from Swāmījī, you got dry ginger powder, put a little, and little saffron. Śyāmasundara: Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: And sugar. And heat it, and keep it some time, and then properly mix it, and then . . . not very cold or anything. Little hot you'll give it to him, and that will improve his digestion. Because this sort of gas trouble won't be there, due to age, with this. Prabhupāda: Our example, gosāi , gosvāmī , all the gosvāmīs . . . let me speak in English. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: The gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, they're nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . Sumati Morarjee: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Nidrā āhāra vihāra . Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca rādhā-kṛṣṇa-padāravinda-bhajanānandena mattālikau . Āhāra nidrā . Ye sab ahara nidra, ye sab chod diya. Vijita. Jaya kar liya. Usko jaya nahi kar sakte. (They gave up this sleeping and eating. Vijita. They conquered it. It is not possible to conquer.) Āhāra nidrā . . . vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau . The Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was, at that time, five hundred years ago, his father's income was twelve lakhs of rupees. Sumati Morarjee: I know Jīva Gosvāmī, Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, or Rūpa, Sanātana. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana was minister, minister. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. And that you know, those other two also, what is their name? They were also very high up. Prabhupāda: Rāmānanda Rāya? Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Rāmānanda Rāya. Prabhupāda: He was governor. Sumati Morarjee: And Ācārya ? Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaṭṭa . . . Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sumati Morarjee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: You have read in my books, *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, the whole Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Caitanya's life, and all that, it is written by Prabhodatta brahmacārī. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: I have read that. Prabhupāda: Ah, Hindi. Sumati Morarjee: Hindi. Revatīnandana: We stayed in his āśrama in Allahabad . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, so . . . Devotee: . . . Prabhodatta brahmacārī's āśrama . *Sumati Morarjee: To ap ye uska translation kar rahe hai? Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ka? (So are you translating it? Of Caitanya-caritāmṛta ?) Prabhupāda: Kiska? Cai . . . to hai. (Which one? Cai . . . that is there already.) *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Show him. Śyāmasundara: TLC. Prabhupāda: Our latest books can be shown. All the books. You have got this book? Sumati Morarjee: No. Swāmījī ap ne to bohot kiya hai. Abhi ap chale mat jana, pura kam karna. Kyu apne jo kiya hai na aisa dusra jaldi nahi karega. Ye badi se apki niche murti bohot sundar hai. Bohot. Us din mai arti me ai thi. (Swāmījī, you have done a lot. Just don't leave right now, complete the mission first. This is because no one can do what you have done in such a short time. The big Deity downstairs is very beautiful. I came for ārtī that day.) (Śyāmasundara explains about books to gentleman in background) *Prabhupāda: Apka Baba, Ma ka ashirvad hai. Ap log sab bata dijiye. Nahi humara Bombay ka murti bhi bohot sundar hai. Bohot sundar. To ap log sab mil karke sab mandir*-vandir banaiye. (The blessings of my parents are with me. You all can tell. Our Deities in Bombay are also very beautiful. Very beautiful. So you all cooperatively build the temple.) Sumati Morarjee: Bohot sundar. Wo to ban raha hai par ap chale mat jana. Kyu ki wo to aisa hai na ap to sant ho. Humari bat alag hai. Hum log to yaha duniya me phase huye hai. Ap sant ho.To sant ki bat to alag hai. (Very beautiful. That is already under construction but you don't go away. Because you are a saint. Our case is different. We are trapped in this material world. You are a saint. So a saint is completely different.) Prabhupāda: Nahi ap to sant ka sevika hai. Ap to pehle humko ane to diya tha tabhi to hua tha. Apke pas maine pahucha jo ap humko jane dijiye to ap bohot anand se humko diya tha jane ko. (No, but I am a servant of that saint. You only allowed me to come here so this has happened. When I approached you for allowing me to go, then you joyfully gave me the permission.) Sumati Morarjee: Wo alag bat hai Swāmījī. Par aisa hai na ke jo ap kar sakte ho . . . khari bat. Us din bolti thi . . . arrey mere ko to badi chinta ho gayi thi ap gaye jab. Maine to ek accha brahman kula Captain hoga uska . . . Captain Pandia us din aya tha wo? Abhi aya tha mere ko milke. Ha, bohot sajjan. Banaras ke hai na, Gita. To abhi ayi thi mere pas. (That is a different thing. But the thing is what you can do . . . perfectly true. I was saying that day . . . I was extremely worried when you left. I thought that a nice brahmin Captain would be . . . didn't Captain Pandia come that day? He came to meet me recently. Yes, a great gentleman. He is from Banaras, *Gītā* . She also came to meet me.) Prabhupāda: Wo Pandia khub . . . Pandia aur unko patni. Ladki, wo bohot . . . Gita. (Pandia was extremely . . . Pandia and his wife. His daughter, she was very . . . *Gītā* .) She is very nice. And she is a good astrologer. Sumati Morarjee: O mere ko nahi malum. (Oh, I do not know.) *Prabhupāda: That little girl, young girl, she saw my palm, and she said: "Swāmījī, if you can surpass seventy*-one years, then you will live hundred years." (laughter) And on seventy-first year I was . . . Sumati Morarjee: . . . (indistinct) . . . bohot accha hai. Ap ka movement bohot accha chalega. Ye to bohot acchi bat boli hai. (. . . (indistinct) . . . that is very nice. Your movement will continue very nicely. This is a very nice thing that she has said.) I know. Ap bohot bimar ho gaye the. Ha bohot gaya tha parishram. (You were extremely sick. Yes, a lot of hard work had to be done.) Prabhupāda: Bohot bimar ho gaya tha. Wo to death hi tha. Wo to khali Bhagavan bacha liya . . . (I was extremely sick. It was factually death. By God's grace I was saved . . .) very strong heart attack in New York. I fell down, heart attack. Parishram bohot hua tha. Din rat parishram kiya. To ab idhar lekin jagah nahi hai. Jagah, ye place bada important hai. Important hai, baki accommodation . . . (a lot of hard work had to be done. I toiled day and night. But we don't have sufficient space here. This place is very important. It is important but accommodation . . .) we have no sufficient accommodation. Sumati Morarjee: Nahi, accha nahi hai. Maine wahi us din dekha to inko bola ki jagah. Bohot accha hai. (No, it is not good. I told them that day about the lack of space. The location is very good.) Hall is very small. Prabhupāda: To idhar bhi ek mandir banana hai accha. (So, a nice temple has to be built here.) Therefore I am asking them. So, some gentlemen here, they say that, "You try, money will be raised here. It will be not difficult." So I'm asking that find out some place. Sumati Morarjee: To kaha ap dhundhoge? Wo apka ye cathedral ka kya hua? (Where are you going to search? What happened to that cathedral?) Prabhupāda: Three hundred million dollars . . . ah, three hundred million pounds? Sumati Morarjee: Pounds. Śyāmasundara: What did he say? Dhanañjaya: What is this? Prabhupāda: That, er . . . Dhanañjaya: Kingsway Hall? Two and a half million pounds. Sumati Morarjee: Kingsway House. Śyāmasundara: Two and a half million pounds. Kingsway Hall. Prabhupāda: Still it is open. Dhanañjaya: No, no. It's gone to a businessman. We, we offered one and a half million pounds, and it went to the businessman for two and a half million pounds. Prabhupāda: Ah. Revatīnandana: They asked three million. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: They asked for three million pounds, and they got two and a half million for it . . . (indistinct) . . . half million pounds. Śyāmasundara: It's just around the corner. Revatīnandana: It's a very nice place, but I couldn't imagine . . . Sumati Morarjee: To yaha mil sakta hai aisa jagah? (So, can you find such a place here?) Prabhupāda: Ha mil sakta hai. Jagah bohot hai. Wo church bhi hai par rupaya kaha hai humare pas. Rupaya to jo kuch thoda dhukta hai, kitab chapa deta hu. (Yes, we can find it. There is plenty available. There is that church also but where is the money? Whatever money comes, I print books with that.) Sumati Morarjee: Wo to ap bohot bada kam kar rahe ho. (This is a very great work you are doing.) Revatīnandana: So Mātājī's . . . if some of these books she hasn't got, we can give her. She's our Life Member. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, just now I am. Prabhupāda: She is life . . . she is life after life. (laughter) She is life after life member. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, but I'll talk to this, ah, Girirāja in Bombay about becoming the patron myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: I said, "Let us see." Prabhupāda: We . . . let us form a trustee, and you become the president of the Trust. (laughter) You become the president of the trustee, and do the needful. Sumati Morarjee: You know, just now that your . . . Prabhupāda: So, whether you agree to this or not? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately make her the president of the trustee, or Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: No, you see. Prabhupāda: Girirāja is also very nice boy. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, everyday he is there, because he says: "I want you . . ." Prabhupāda: You like him? Sumati Morarjee: He's a good man. Prabhupāda: Very good. Sumati Morarjee: "I want your advice." So first day I called him, he came. I said: "You I don't want. Where is that Śyāmasundara?" (laughter) Prabhupāda: His father is very rich man. Sumati Morarjee: Is he? Prabhupāda: His father is a very big lawyer, and mother, father, both came to me Calcutta. Mother, after all mother, she was crying, that "Give me back my boy." (laughter) So I, "You can take away your boy." So anyway, they are very good gentlemen. So . . . but he has . . . he's graduate in psychology. He's learned. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, he's a very nice man. So I asked him just now, I'm running a school. I said: "You come and, uh, give lecture," mean some stories . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you give some fruits? Sumati Morarjee: . . . to the children. No, I will take this. You give me a piece of paper, can you? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll take this for the children. Dhanañjaya: Isn't there some prasāda also, that's still out there in the . . . Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you give me . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Immediately write one letter to Girirāja that, uh, I'll suggest some names for becoming trustee, or you can suggest some of the Life Members you know. Sumati Morarjee: I know so many, but . . . ap suggest kariye. Ap Bombay kabhi ane wale ho? Abhi ap kitna din rahoge? Accha Swāmījī ap yaha kitna din . . . (you suggest. When are you coming to Bombay? How many days are you going to stay here? Okay Swāmījī, how many days . . .) *Prabhupāda: Bombay thoda idhar ka kam dekh*-dakh ke jayenge. Ap dekhiye na, humko ghumne dijjiye. Jaisa ap ne pehle force lagaya na. Starting apne to diya, to humko ghumne dijiye. (I will go to Bombay after checking out the work here. You look after it and let me keep touring. Just like you put an effort in the beginning. You made the start so let me go on a tour.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha to ap yaha kitne din theherne wale ho? Bas. Phir. October me ap kaha hoge? (Okay, so how many days are you going to stay here? That's all. Then. Where are you going to be in October?) Prabhupāda: Jaise ek mahina. (Around one month.) Paris. Maybe Nairobi. Then either Los Angeles or to India. October me to zarur India me jayenge. Udhar Los Angeles me ek makan kharidna hai. (In October, I will surely go to India. We have to buy an apartment in Los Angeles.) Because whatever that Māyāpur . . . you have been in Nava . . . Navadvīpa? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have been to Navadvīpa, Māyāpur, Śāntipura, then that Katwa. All those places I have visited. Prabhupāda: So Māyāpur we are constructing a big temple. And Vṛndāvana also. So, for maintenance of the temple perpetually, I want to purchase some property in Los Angeles, because here, Los Angeles, property gets nice income. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: Los Angeles. Indian man: Good income? Prabhupāda: Yes, because any ordinary room is about a $125. So $125 in our Indian exchange is about thousand rupees. So, thousand rupees, two rooms, who will pay in India? Sumati Morarjee: No. Nobody will pay. Prabhupāda: (laughter) Nobody will pay. So then therefore I thought that to purchase one, two house, so that as Vṛndāvana property . . . because I am maintaining now the whole institution by begging. But when Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa deities are there, there is no income. Sumati Morarjee: No, there won't be any. Both places . . . Prabhupāda: In Bombay we can go to you, "Mātājī, we have no money. Please give me some." Sumati Morarjee: No, that is different, but these things . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so, but Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa I want to make some provision. So I'm negotiating for that. This is one business. So Bombay . . . Bombay ke liye to ap hi . . . (For Bombay, you yourself are . . .) huh? Sumati Morarjee: Of course, you won't get so much rent for London properties. They're also very much appreciated. Prabhupāda: London property is very costly. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, very costly, but they're day by day appreciating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Doubled. In one year it's doubled. Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Forty percent has gone up in a year's time, on one property. Prabhupāda: Because the Indians are coming. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, they'll take all the property. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Sumati Morarjee: And started taking all the shops. All the cinema theaters. Prabhupāda: And London is practically now Indian. Sumati Morarjee: I always say that I see more Indians in London than really the people who are . . . Prabhupāda: Ye idhar bhi ap khada hoke khatiye, ek mandir accha banaiye na. Nahi, ye public hai interesting. Ap thoda din thehriye na toh idhar bhi ho jayega. Dus tarikh ke bad. Accha. (So you stay here and work hard, build one nice temple. No, the public is interested. If you stay here then the work will be done. After tenth. Okay.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha wo to hoga. Abhi to mere ko to jane ka hai aur mai October ke dus tarikh ko yaha ane wali hu. Nahi, dus me to mera meeting hai. To do char din pehle mai aungi. October char pach ko. To ap kabhi jane wale ho Swāmījī? (Yes, that will be done. Now, I have to go and I will be coming here on 10th October. No, on the tenth I have a meeting. I will come two to four days earlier. October 4th or 5th. So when are you going to leave Swāmījī?) Oh, so much prasāda . Dhanañjaya: Oh, we have prepared just a little for you. Sumati Morarjee: All right. I'll take and send it back, because the children are at home. Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Sumati Morarjee: I'll take, send you back your vessels. Did he give you last time? Prabhupāda: So if you have got some paper, you wrap it. Śyāmasundara: Here's a bag. Sumati Morarjee: So now, what . . . what is your problem? Ah, this is better. Prabhupāda: Ek ap hukum kar dijiye. Ki ek . . . (You issue an order. That one . . .) this boy, he's president of . . . of my Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: So what does he want? Prabhupāda: He wants to give me some car. To usko dispatch karne ka bandobast kar do. Ha, Detroit me. To idhar bhejna hai, phir apka jahaj me. Nahi, India me. (So make some arrangement to dispatch it. Yes, in Detroit. So it will be sent here, then on your ship. No, in India.) *Sumati Morarjee: Ha, wo . . . kaha Detroit me? Kaha bhejega, yaha? (Yes, that . . . where, in Detroit? Where will he send it, here?) So ask . . . you write to me a letter in Bombay, Scindia address, that such*-and-such car, so when is the ship due in Detroit. And then I will let you know, finding out the whole detail. Because UK office doesn't know the movement of the American ships. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: It's only Bombay who . . . which knows. So you write me in a letter to Bombay. Prabhupāda: When everything is settled up. Sumati Morarjee: When you are settled, when is the ship due, and we want to send. So there won't be any trouble in port? Prabhupāda: That he'll clear up. Sumati Morarjee: You better clear first. Śyāmasundara: Yeah . . . Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise what happens. Śyāmasundara: Kṣīrodakaśāyī knows. Sumati Morarjee: Government of India doesn't allow any import of car in India; otherwise you will come . . . Prabhupāda: His, his admission is that I am the guru of the Americans. I have no car. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: I know. But if, how, you have to take either through the American Embassy permission or government of India's permission is needed. Śyāmasundara: Yes, but Prabhupāda is an alien registered as living in the United States, so he can take his personal car. Prabhupāda: I am immigrant. I am immigrant, and I think I heard that one who has lived in America more than three years, he can take. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, you can bring car. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is the law, I think. Sumati Morarjee: So you can find out all this from India office. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, Gurudāsa can do that. Sumati Morarjee: And then will give you in Indian High Commission all details. Prabhupāda: Another, another is that we get some incense imported from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: I know. So what is that incense? Śyāmasundara: Punks. Punks. Prabhupāda: Punks. Śyāmasundara: Just a punk. Sumati Morarjee: Can you show me? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Show me some. Prabhupāda: Show, show, Spiritual Sky. Sumati Morarjee: I know, we also use that incense, but, uh, I don't know the name of it. Prabhupāda: So kindly get them carried from Hong Kong to Los Angeles. Sumati Morarjee: So let us see. Śyāmasundara: They're punks, without any scent, and then it . . . Sumati Morarjee: I know it . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: And when they come here, then they dip them into oil and make a scent. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Sumati Morarjee: That's why I . . . Prabhupāda: You get from Hong Kong . . . Sumati Morarjee: And take where? Prabhupāda: Huh? Take to Los Angeles. That is a . . . Sumati Morarjee: No, but one thing, if it is brought to Bombay via Hong Kong, then we can send it to Los Angeles by ship. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: By ship we can send it. Prabhupāda: Your ship does not go to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Sometimes it goes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: So, at that time it is handed over to Hong Kong ship. It will be delivered in Bombay. Then we reship it to Hong Kong . . . to Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Is that on a regular basis, that it goes to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, mostly. I'll let you know, because that service is also Bombay. These people, they don't know. So you can write one letter for this car, and another letter for this, so they're not intermixed. Prabhupāda: Yes, all right. Scindia Steam Navigation meant for carrying Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Everytime we carry. Prabhupāda: That was written in the beginning. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I think it was done by . . . at your expense. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That small pamphlet. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Scindia Steam Navigation Company carries Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to Western countries. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. She's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. In her office there is Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: These Gujaratis are especially, worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and they belong to Bhāratia community. They're all Vaiṣṇava. The whole, I have to say, Viṣṇu Svāmī Sampradāya, or Vallabha Ācārya Sampradāya. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, Vallabhācārya. Prabhupāda: Their guru . Sumati Morarjee: Vallabhācārya is our guru . *Prabhupāda: So, they, they're originally all Vaiṣṇava family. All Vaiṣṇava family. Bāla*-Kṛṣṇa. They are worship of Bāla-Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Śyāmasundara: I have that Gujarati Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we're printing the Gujarati Back to Godhead. Sumati Morarjee: What? Let me, what is it? Prabhupāda: We have got some . . . giving, give her that. Sumati Morarjee: This is from where you get? Prabhupāda: Yes, we get from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: Hong Kong. Why, is it good? *Prabhupāda: No, it is not good. It is raw. That we re*-scent it . . . Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: . . . different, in different way. Bhagavān: They dip it into oils. Prabhupāda: Scented oil. That's . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, and then it becomes . . . Dhanañjaya: They're known as firelighters, because sometimes they use them for lighting fireworks. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Oh, I know now. I understand. So you can present, tell me. Yes, this is Dvārakādīśa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvārakādīśa to apka hai. (Dvārakādīśa belongs to you only.) Sumati Morarjee: So you, you have started? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have started. Śyāmasundara: It's printed in Bombay. Sumati Morarjee: Where? Śyāmasundara: In Bombay. Prabhupāda: Recently. Śyāmasundara: This is the first one. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, because I have not seen it. Śyāmasundara: This is the first issue. Prabhupāda: This is the first issue. They have sent one copy. (knock on door) Yes? Sumati Morarjee: So, Swāmījī, can I take this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can take. Sumati Morarjee: So you must, you . . . initials. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, here. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: And this also, so I will always remember that I've been in London to meet Swāmījī, my . . . Swāmījī's godson. Dhanañjaya: And you're also president now, board of trustees. Prabhupāda: You, president, you give her this garland. Sumati Morarjee: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: But did you put it round Swāmījī's head? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Then I can take prasāda garland of Swāmījī. Dhanañjaya: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: Jaya. Haribol . Prabhupāda: You consider Śrīmati Morarji as the mother of the Institution. (laughter) Dhanañjaya: And you're our father. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Because, you see, today, then Swāmījī was in so much trouble, I still remember. He wrote to me some letter from America that, "I am sitting in the Central Park, all alone." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Daddy can't be alone. You've got so many students, you have no time to be alone. Prabhupāda: I was going to your agent's office, Battery . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Battery Place. Prabhupāda: Seventeen Battery Place. Sumati Morarjee: Yeah, 17 Battery Place. Prabhupāda: So I was asking him, "Find out when Scindia Navigation is going back." He said such and such date. "All right." Then I thought, "Let me stay another month, what I can do." Then again I was going . . . Sumati Morarjee: To find out. Prabhupāda: Find out. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know . . . Prabhupāda: . . . so he said: "Swāmījī, you are coming to find out, but you are not going back. What is?" (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know, there was one old man, now he has retired, who used to look after all service in that office. So he wrote to me that, "This Swāmījī wants to come. What to do?" I said: "Yes, whenever he wants to come." Prabhupāda: No, I got return ticket. Sumati Morarjee: "Yes, so you send him back, if he wants to come. But see that a good captain is on the ship." Then, uh, then . . . once he . . . came to Bombay, said: "Swāmī doesn't come." I said: "Now he won't come." (Prabhupāda laughs) And also give me, Swāmījī, that Gujarati . . . so I'll preserve all this. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, yes. *Dhanañjaya: Remember you were asking me just a few days ago about Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I was. I heard Swāmījī, you know, came to my house to read. Rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: From Bhāgavata . That is supposed to be the . . . Prabhupāda: Now, when I shall go to Juhu, I shall regularly begin all Bhāgavata . Sumati Morarjee: I want to hear, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: Yes, all Bhāgavata . *Sumati Morarjee: And you know, rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya is really the pañca-prāṇa of Bhāgavata; *otherwise it is all right. There is nothing important. That is the real soul of the Bhāgavata , this rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya . Prabhupāda: (to devotee) You have got duplicate copies of this? Sumati Morarjee: Have you got? Otherwise don't give me. Bhagavān: Yes, I have some copies I brought. Prabhupāda: All right, then that's all right. Sumati Morarjee: He has come from where? Bhagavān: Myself? I just came from Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: Detroit. And this Swāmījī from where? Revatīnandana: I'm staying here, in London. Sumati Morarjee: No, but you come from where? Prabhupāda: He's from America. Revatīnandana: From California. Sumati Morarjee: All from California? Śyāmasundara: He travels around England and preaches in all the villages, small towns. Sumati Morarjee: Where's that? Śyāmasundara: Here, in England, Scotland. Revatīnandana: I also met you in Bombay once. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have seen you in Bombay. And what about you? Dhanañjaya: I'm Scottish. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, because you look . . . Prabhupāda: In Edinburgh we have got a temple. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nice temple Sumati Morarjee: This Swāmījī's from there. Śyāmasundara: This boy is son of a Muslim family, Pakistani family. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so you have come from Pakistan. Devotee: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Which side? Devotee: Lahore, West Pakistan. Sumati Morarjee: I have been to Lahore. We had a very big office in Karachi. I've been to Karachi so many time. Next to, you know, the . . . (indistinct) . . . the office area. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of Pakistan now? Sumati Morarjee: Today that Bhutto is come and gone. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: You know he has left for today for Pakistan back. He came to see the Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Here? Sumati Morarjee: No, our Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Oh, our Prime Minister. Sumati Morarjee: And they were both met in Simla for four days, five days, and then they discussed various thing, and now they have come to an understanding that everything must be mutually done, and with the good faith, and they have to be . . . Prabhupāda: So, what is the use of keeping Pakistan? Let it, let, let, let them have another. Sumati Morarjee: I know, I know. But what about this Bangladesh also? You'll have to . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: . . . do something. Because I met so many people from Bangladesh, they were completely forgotten our culture. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: That's . . . we're going there next month, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. I think you remember him. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, very well. Śyāmasundara: He's got his visa now. He's taking a party there, to Bangladesh. Sumati Morarjee: Very good, but I hope they put . . . don't put you somewhere. That's not a very . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, reliable, I say. You have your office in Dacca? Sumati Morarjee: Huh? Prabhupāda: Dacca? No? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, our office used to be. We had property. We have lost about twenty*-six lakhs of rupees with both sides of Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Oh, you had to close your office? Sumati Morarjee: We had our own . . . (indistinct) . . . our own house in Chittagong, then our offices, then . . . (indistinct) . . . and our manager he was interned, and we turn a lot of them . . . in Karachi also. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: We had big properties in Karachi. Prabhupāda: So, so they cannot return? Sumati Morarjee: They're not returning anything. With great difficulty. I put up a fight with the British to get back my ship with that interned one passenger. Prabhupāda: Yes, that ship I saw when I was going. Sumati Morarjee: Yes. Prabhupāda: We met on the way. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: And that ship was returned. Sumati Morarjee: That was returned. So that I put pressure on the British here. That's how we got back the ships. Otherwise we would have lost those two ships. Prabhupāda: They're very uncultured. Sumati Morarjee: Very, very uncultured. And he came to see the Prime Minister, he brought all his sons, all his daughters, whole family he brought, to our . . . (indistinct) . . . because Bhutto, he is from Junagadh. I know him. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is a Gujarati? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, he is Gujarati Muhammadan. He is from Junagadh. His father . . . Prabhupāda: Jinnah was also. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, Jinnah was from Karachi, Bombay, but this Bhutto 'till he went away, he was in Junagadh. His father, son was Bhutto, was the Mayor of Junagadh. Prabhupāda: Just see. Sumati Morarjee: He was brought up in Junagadh. He was in Bombay all these . . . he's educated in Bombay. Śyāmasundara: Juna, Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Junagadh. Prabhupāda: No, no, Junagadh is a city. Sumati Morarjee: You know, in Saurashtra. Prabhupāda: Saurashtra. Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: There, he was born, bred, educated. He is from Bombay and Junagadh, Saurashtra. Like Jinnah. Jinnah, last time before Pakistan, came to my house, we were old friends, so he came to my house, so I . . . Prabhupāda: Jinnah was older than you? Sumati Morarjee: Oh? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, he was of Gandhi's age. Sumati Morarjee: I know. And he was a Communist member before. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Home Rule and all that. He was the man. So I knew him some many years. So he came to see me, and I talked to him. At that time, you know, his position had become very bad. So he said that . . . I started talking to him in English, he said: "Why do you talk to me in English? You talk to me in Kachchhi. We have common language." I said: "I thought you forgotten." He said: "How can I forget my mother tongue?" (Prabhupāda laughs). And after that, you know, he . . . this movement of Pakistan, and India became very strong and he went away. Prabhupāda: He was . . . he was paid for that running on the League of . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Prabhupāda: This all Englishmen subscribes. Sumati Morarjee: Because you know is the policy, "Divide and rule." Prabhupāda: Yes, that was it. Jinnah was made. Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise, nobody will do anything. So, I won't take your time Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down. Sumati Morarjee: Because you are tired, old. I'm going to preserve this mālā. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: I put it, give it to my daughter. She is very fond of roses. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, yes, she's crazy . . . Prabhupāda: How old she is now? Sumati Morarjee: She's ten. Today I'll . . . starting today in the afternoon, I remembered so much that I wish Swāmījī was here, she gave a Manipuri dance recital in our office and became Rādhā. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Sumati Morarjee: You know, aṣṭa nāyaka. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Sumati Morarjee: So the eighth nāyaka she became. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: Rādhā getting angry with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So there are other girls also. Sumati Morarjee: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Other girls? *Sumati Morarjee: No, she was alone, but the offices, we wanted to see. So I said: "All right." We had tape, so she danced on that, and the other one is Mākhan*-chori. Prabhupāda: Acchā . Sumati Morarjee: Two things she did. So I remembered so much. Prabhupāda: Just see how this girl is being trained. So similarly, we are teaching our students, small children . . . we have opened a school at Dallas, to . . . because these boys and girls, they're having children, they're being trained up. We are creating a new generation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: I tell you, we have got a very good Manipuri teacher. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: Last year I was in Manipura, I took this girl with me, my little girl, and I stayed there eight days, went to Govinda's temple and all these places. Prabhupāda: I, we cannot pay—we have no money. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. If these girls come to my school, I will teach them this dance. Prabhupāda: Where is your school? Sumati Morarjee: Oh, just opposite to you, my house. Devotee: Next to the temple, Juhu. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Sumati Morarjee: These small girls, whatever you have got, they can come twice or four or four times, three times a week. This Manipuri girl comes. Prabhupāda: No, we are opening here in America one school for training small children to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, so I told, Swāmījī, this Girirāja to come to our school, and tell them all mythological stories, and tell them . . . make them do some bhajana and all that. I hope he has started. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Ap (You.) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: What is your name? Sumati Morarjee: His name is Mr. Girish Joshi. He is from Dakore. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: Dakore Ji's temple. Prabhupāda: Now, in future, in Joshi family, Lord Kṛṣṇa will appear as Kalki. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so here is Joshi. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is named there in the Bhāgavata , Viṣṇu Joshi. The father's name of Kalki is Viṣṇu Joshi, and He will appear in Śambhala. Śambhala. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know that. They have built a temple. Prabhupāda: Hah? Sumati Morarjee: In . . . near Purī, there is a place, I forget the name, and in that they're building a temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: When Kalki avatāra . . . they've built a very big . . . huge, big temple. When Kalki . . . without any image. When Kalki avatāra takes place, Jagannāthajī will come there, from the Purī temple, and They will be worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: But that is after four lakhs of years. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I don't know that. Building a temple. (laughter) I, this time, I asked, I said, "Who's building all these temples?" They said: "It is for Jagannāthajī." I said: "Jagannāthajī has past." They said: "No, when the Kalki avatāra takes place." There is a Śambhala town somewhere near, small village, and . . . *Prabhupāda: So you'll not remain here upto Ratha*-yātrā. *Sumati Morarjee: No, I have my Ṭhākurjī's Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: At home. Prabhupāda: I see. Sumati Morarjee: So I today only wrote a very big letter what to do, how to do. I'll go there. Prabhupāda: At Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, my house. Prabhupāda: I see. *Sumati Morarjee: So . . . (indistinct) . . . Ratha*-yātrā. My Ṭhākurjī must be waiting. Prabhupāda: It is taken outside? No. Sumati Morarjee: No, inside. In the house. Prabhupāda: Within the compound. That's right. *Sumati Morarjee: Here I have seen Ratha*-yātrā, the first time in . . . when these people came here. I had no idea. That day I arrived. (laughter) So I said: "What is all this?" There were so many people and all hari-bolo and all that. "What is happerning?" So then I saw Ratha, I said: "This is Ratha-yātrā," near this place. Devotees: Marble Arch? Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. I was passing Marble Arch, Hyde Park corner. I saw all the people. I said, "What . . ." Then I found out. I thought . . . Prabhupāda: In San Francisco we hold, very gorgeous. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Three rathas. Sumati Morarjee: I have seen those pictures. *Prabhupāda: Three rathas, and thousands of . . . oh, they're very much, I mean to say, enthused to take prasādam and dance. So this year they asked me to come here. Therefore I have come to see the Ratha*-yātrā, how they . . . Sumati Morarjee: But, ah, you will be here in October? Prabhupāda: Ah, maybe. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, if you are here, you, you must write to me about Swāmījī's program. Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: So if you are here, I'll be here by 6th, 7th of October, because 10th is my meeting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: In London. So I will take your leave, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Jaya . Sumatijī ki jaya . All glories to Sumatijī. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: All glories to Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Ap utha lijiye. (You pick up.) So you write to me about this Hong Kong. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And for you becoming the president of the Trustee, I shall write to Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you write to Girirāja, and we will discuss ourselves. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: So much. Prabhupāda: Yes, take it. She can take whole . . . Sumati Morarjee: I'll take and then . . . Prabhupāda: She'll return the pot. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll send all the bati (utensils) and everything, including handkerchief. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Jaya! Go with. Go with. Take this. Take this. Help her. No, no, he will help you. (Sumati Morarjee leaves) Revatīnandana: Do you know how old she is, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Maybe over sixty. Revatīnandana: She's very much alive. So much alive. *Prabhupāda: Her father was one the richest men in Bombay, and her husband . . . her father*-in-law also one of the richest men. They're coming from very rich family in Bombay. And she's so intelligent. That Scindia Steam Navigation Company, very big company. It is a semi-government, and she's the managing director. All the big, big officers respecting as mother, carries out her order. And she's great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, but she does not agree with her husband. (laughter) Hmm? The husband and wife, not very agreement. Yes. Revatīnandana: Her husband is alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. They live separate building. They meet, but they live separate building, separate establishment. She looks one department of business, and he looks another department. That child, adopted. She has no own child. Revatīnandana: Oh. Bhagavān: So perhaps she'll ship the punks, and the vehicle. Prabhupāda: And the car also. And I've asked her to become the president of the trustee for construction of Bombay. She has agreed. Revatīnandana: What will the business of the trustees be? Prabhupāda: Hah? Revatīnandana: What will their business be as trustees? Prabhupāda: To raise fund. Revatīnandana: Hmm? *Prabhupāda: Raise fund. That's all. We approach these person for raising fund, that's all. Not for taking any lesson from them. Now, to have a temple here, we shall hold a meeting on the Indian gentlemen to raise the fund. You find out some place, immediately, so that while I am remaining, by performing Bhāgavata*-saptāha , I'm influencing the Indian rich men here; they can purchase. She will also contribute for October. July, August, September, October. So the negotiation will go on for at least three month; in the meantime, she will come. She will also contribute. I have already given her hint and she agrees. So let us find out some nice place. Bhagavān: You won't be here that long, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You're going to be leaving on the 20th, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, I may come back. Bhagavān: You may come back? Prabhupāda: Yes, finish the business. Bhagavān: Would you like myself or Haṁsadūta to stay here and help with this building? Prabhupāda: Yes, all together. Bhagavān: I was thinking of going to Paris, but I'll stay for a while and help here. Prabhupāda: Paris is not far off. You can go and come. Bhagavān: Go and come. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Bhagavān: Yeah! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Instead of becoming empty, it is better crowded. Our building, in the morning it was . . . there was no place to bow down. It was just matchbox packed up. Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That is because all the devotees are here from all the temples. But still . . . Prabhupāda: Could not sit even. That is good. And it is always like that? Devotee: No. Revatīnandana: Well, like I say, all the devotees are here from all the temples in England, so Edinburgh and Manchester, they're all here too. But always it is crowded, and, uh, on Sundays it's no good at all, because so many people come, they can't even come in to see the Deities, you know. They can't fit all in the temple. And, uh, and we don't advertise the Sunday feast. If we advertise the Sunday feast, we couldn't get them in the whole building. So we can't even advertise. So therefore they don't even mention it, people still come, and we can't fit them all in the building. And we're hoping that it would get so full that Kṛṣṇa will see and He'll give us a place quickly. Prabhupāda: Give her some position. And she's very influential, rich. But everyone wants some post. That is natural. Therefore I told . . . offered her the presidency of Bombay Trust, to raise the fund. In Bombay we have got very nice place. The best place of anywhere. And it is so nice in summertime, you'll find in paradise. So many coconut trees. You have seen? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: And we are . . . Nara*-nārāyaṇa has been engaged to make it a nice garden. All vacant land, we are getting nice garden, and the owner of the land, he has given me the best facility. First of all, the land is worth minimum thirty hundred thousands rupees. Revatīnandana: Thirty lakhs? Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs. But he has given me for fourteen lakhs. And that's also by installment, in three years, er, four years, without any interest . . . Devotee: Who is that man? Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair. Mrs. Nair. She is . . . she is also very nice devotee. So every year four lakhs of rupees, in three years, er, four years, fourteen lakhs , without any interest. So we have got good facility. And in Vṛndāvana, some gentleman has given us the land. Revatīnandana: Is the land in Vṛndāvana, is it in the city? Is it on the outside of Vṛndāvana, or is it right in the city? Prabhupāda: No, it is just in front of Bon Mahārāja's college. Śyāmasundara: It's in Rāman Reti. Prabhupāda: (laughter) The best place in Vṛndāvana. All aristocratic quality. And we have got potency. There are so many buildings, they are not being properly utilized. If we want to, you can purchase the whole area. Revatīnandana: How is the Gauḍīya . . . *Prabhupāda: Now you have got enough place in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa, in Bombay. There will be no difficulty if you go by thousands to India. You can live very comfortable. So you can go, batches by go—you can go and come back. So that foreigners, they visit, and gradually there will be unity between the so*-called Hindu, Muslim—all Kṛṣṇa's servant. This is the idea behind Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't believe in this skin disease. (cut) (end) Conversation with Sumati Morarjee -- July 11, 1972, London Sumati Morarjee: Kaise ho ap aj aye? Hume pata hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mujhe abhi bola inhone ke ap aj ane wale hai. Ap aj ane wale hai. Ye London me hi hai. (How are you, have you come today? I knew it . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me just now that you are going to come today. He is in London.) Prabhupāda: Accha, bohot khushi hui. Juhu to apka hi hai. (Okay. I am very happy to see you. Anyway Juhu belongs to you only.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha ji. Mai usko bulati hu na, apka waha Giriraj hai usko. To abhi duble kaise ho gaye? (Yes. I call him, your Giriraja who stays there. So how did you become so lean?) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . kha nahi sakte. Old liver ho gaya. Hajam nahi hota. (. . . (indistinct) . . . can't eat anything. The liver has become old. Digestion isn't functioning.) Sumati Morarjee: Kyu? To kya khate ho? Dusre kuch khate nahi?) (Why? So what do you eat then? Don't you eat anything else?) Prabhupāda: Zyada thoda fruit khate hai. Dusra khane se hajam nahi hota. Dudh pite hai. Dudh bhi thik hajam nahi hota. Gas ho jata hai. Wahi thoda bohot fruit . . . (I eat some fruits. Any other thing is not digestible for me. I drink milk but I cannot digest even that properly. Gas formation takes place. Little bit of fruits, that's all . . .) Sumati Morarjee: Ha wo to hai abhi. Nahi, bohot nahi hoga abhi. Gas ho jata hai. To ap dudh me wo kyu nahi dalte ho? (That is true. You can't digest too much milk. Gas formation takes place. So why don't you add something in your milk?) Prabhupāda: Kya? Kya? (What? What?) Dry powder or . . . ? Thoda sa. Jaisa pau, der pau. Accha. (Little bit. One glass, one and a half glasses.) Sumati Morarjee: Ek tukda adarak ka. Jab dudh garam karne ko rakhe to usko barikh karke ekdum . . . wo koi bhi, yaha nahi milta to dry. To usme thoda dalke ap shakkar dalte ho? Thodi si shakkar dalke usko garam karo. Aur usme apni ye masale jo haldi nahi ati nahi to kesar. Do me se ek. Wo dalke, aur thoda garam karke aur dhak rakho phir aisa bohot kuchalke aur phir chahiye to ap piyo sadharan garam. Ha bas ek glass dudh hoga . . . glass me kitna, ek chota sa yaha chimchi rehti hai na. Wo ye lete hai rai bhi. Nahi, mustard ke liye. Bas ek choti si chimchi andar ye daliye adarak, wo sukha powder aur thoda sa ye daliye kesar aur usko accha garam karke thodi . . . (One piece of ginger. When you put the milk for boiling, cut it into very fine pieces . . . anything will do, if it is not available here then dry powder can be used. So after adding it in milk, do you add sugar? Add a little bit of sugar and heat it. Then there are spices like turmeric or saffron. Any one between the two. Add it, then heat the milk and cover it, then you can crush it very nicely and drink the milk at a normal temperature. One glass of milk will do . . . how much, only one small spoon that we have. That we use to take mustard. Add one small spoon of ginger, that dry powder and saffron, then heat it nicely.) Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) You understand what is kesar? Kesar is saffron. Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: You know saffron? When you prepare milk from Swāmījī, you got dry ginger powder, put a little, and little saffron. Śyāmasundara: Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: And sugar. And heat it, and keep it some time, and then properly mix it, and then . . . not very cold or anything. Little hot you'll give it to him, and that will improve his digestion. Because this sort of gas trouble won't be there, due to age, with this. Prabhupāda: Our example, gosāi , gosvāmī , all the gosvāmīs . . . let me speak in English. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: The gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, they're nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . Sumati Morarjee: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Nidrā āhāra vihāra . Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca rādhā-kṛṣṇa-padāravinda-bhajanānandena mattālikau . Āhāra nidrā . Ye sab ahara nidra, ye sab chod diya. Vijita. Jaya kar liya. Usko jaya nahi kar sakte. (They gave up this sleeping and eating. Vijita. They conquered it. It is not possible to conquer.) Āhāra nidrā . . . vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau . The Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was, at that time, five hundred years ago, his father's income was twelve lakhs of rupees. Sumati Morarjee: I know Jīva Gosvāmī, Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, or Rūpa, Sanātana. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana was minister, minister. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. And that you know, those other two also, what is their name? They were also very high up. Prabhupāda: Rāmānanda Rāya? Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Rāmānanda Rāya. Prabhupāda: He was governor. Sumati Morarjee: And Ācārya ? Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaṭṭa . . . Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sumati Morarjee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: You have read in my books, *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, the whole Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Caitanya's life, and all that, it is written by Prabhodatta brahmacārī. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: I have read that. Prabhupāda: Ah, Hindi. Sumati Morarjee: Hindi. Revatīnandana: We stayed in his āśrama in Allahabad . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, so . . . Devotee: . . . Prabhodatta brahmacārī's āśrama . *Sumati Morarjee: To ap ye uska translation kar rahe hai? Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ka? (So are you translating it? Of Caitanya-caritāmṛta ?) Prabhupāda: Kiska? Cai . . . to hai. (Which one? Cai . . . that is there already.) *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Show him. Śyāmasundara: TLC. Prabhupāda: Our latest books can be shown. All the books. You have got this book? Sumati Morarjee: No. Swāmījī ap ne to bohot kiya hai. Abhi ap chale mat jana, pura kam karna. Kyu apne jo kiya hai na aisa dusra jaldi nahi karega. Ye badi se apki niche murti bohot sundar hai. Bohot. Us din mai arti me ai thi. (Swāmījī, you have done a lot. Just don't leave right now, complete the mission first. This is because no one can do what you have done in such a short time. The big Deity downstairs is very beautiful. I came for ārtī that day.) (Śyāmasundara explains about books to gentleman in background) *Prabhupāda: Apka Baba, Ma ka ashirvad hai. Ap log sab bata dijiye. Nahi humara Bombay ka murti bhi bohot sundar hai. Bohot sundar. To ap log sab mil karke sab mandir*-vandir banaiye. (The blessings of my parents are with me. You all can tell. Our Deities in Bombay are also very beautiful. Very beautiful. So you all cooperatively build the temple.) Sumati Morarjee: Bohot sundar. Wo to ban raha hai par ap chale mat jana. Kyu ki wo to aisa hai na ap to sant ho. Humari bat alag hai. Hum log to yaha duniya me phase huye hai. Ap sant ho.To sant ki bat to alag hai. (Very beautiful. That is already under construction but you don't go away. Because you are a saint. Our case is different. We are trapped in this material world. You are a saint. So a saint is completely different.) Prabhupāda: Nahi ap to sant ka sevika hai. Ap to pehle humko ane to diya tha tabhi to hua tha. Apke pas maine pahucha jo ap humko jane dijiye to ap bohot anand se humko diya tha jane ko. (No, but I am a servant of that saint. You only allowed me to come here so this has happened. When I approached you for allowing me to go, then you joyfully gave me the permission.) Sumati Morarjee: Wo alag bat hai Swāmījī. Par aisa hai na ke jo ap kar sakte ho . . . khari bat. Us din bolti thi . . . arrey mere ko to badi chinta ho gayi thi ap gaye jab. Maine to ek accha brahman kula Captain hoga uska . . . Captain Pandia us din aya tha wo? Abhi aya tha mere ko milke. Ha, bohot sajjan. Banaras ke hai na, Gita. To abhi ayi thi mere pas. (That is a different thing. But the thing is what you can do . . . perfectly true. I was saying that day . . . I was extremely worried when you left. I thought that a nice brahmin Captain would be . . . didn't Captain Pandia come that day? He came to meet me recently. Yes, a great gentleman. He is from Banaras, *Gītā* . She also came to meet me.) Prabhupāda: Wo Pandia khub . . . Pandia aur unko patni. Ladki, wo bohot . . . Gita. (Pandia was extremely . . . Pandia and his wife. His daughter, she was very . . . *Gītā* .) She is very nice. And she is a good astrologer. Sumati Morarjee: O mere ko nahi malum. (Oh, I do not know.) *Prabhupāda: That little girl, young girl, she saw my palm, and she said: "Swāmījī, if you can surpass seventy*-one years, then you will live hundred years." (laughter) And on seventy-first year I was . . . Sumati Morarjee: . . . (indistinct) . . . bohot accha hai. Ap ka movement bohot accha chalega. Ye to bohot acchi bat boli hai. (. . . (indistinct) . . . that is very nice. Your movement will continue very nicely. This is a very nice thing that she has said.) I know. Ap bohot bimar ho gaye the. Ha bohot gaya tha parishram. (You were extremely sick. Yes, a lot of hard work had to be done.) Prabhupāda: Bohot bimar ho gaya tha. Wo to death hi tha. Wo to khali Bhagavan bacha liya . . . (I was extremely sick. It was factually death. By God's grace I was saved . . .) very strong heart attack in New York. I fell down, heart attack. Parishram bohot hua tha. Din rat parishram kiya. To ab idhar lekin jagah nahi hai. Jagah, ye place bada important hai. Important hai, baki accommodation . . . (a lot of hard work had to be done. I toiled day and night. But we don't have sufficient space here. This place is very important. It is important but accommodation . . .) we have no sufficient accommodation. Sumati Morarjee: Nahi, accha nahi hai. Maine wahi us din dekha to inko bola ki jagah. Bohot accha hai. (No, it is not good. I told them that day about the lack of space. The location is very good.) Hall is very small. Prabhupāda: To idhar bhi ek mandir banana hai accha. (So, a nice temple has to be built here.) Therefore I am asking them. So, some gentlemen here, they say that, "You try, money will be raised here. It will be not difficult." So I'm asking that find out some place. Sumati Morarjee: To kaha ap dhundhoge? Wo apka ye cathedral ka kya hua? (Where are you going to search? What happened to that cathedral?) Prabhupāda: Three hundred million dollars . . . ah, three hundred million pounds? Sumati Morarjee: Pounds. Śyāmasundara: What did he say? Dhanañjaya: What is this? Prabhupāda: That, er . . . Dhanañjaya: Kingsway Hall? Two and a half million pounds. Sumati Morarjee: Kingsway House. Śyāmasundara: Two and a half million pounds. Kingsway Hall. Prabhupāda: Still it is open. Dhanañjaya: No, no. It's gone to a businessman. We, we offered one and a half million pounds, and it went to the businessman for two and a half million pounds. Prabhupāda: Ah. Revatīnandana: They asked three million. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: They asked for three million pounds, and they got two and a half million for it . . . (indistinct) . . . half million pounds. Śyāmasundara: It's just around the corner. Revatīnandana: It's a very nice place, but I couldn't imagine . . . Sumati Morarjee: To yaha mil sakta hai aisa jagah? (So, can you find such a place here?) Prabhupāda: Ha mil sakta hai. Jagah bohot hai. Wo church bhi hai par rupaya kaha hai humare pas. Rupaya to jo kuch thoda dhukta hai, kitab chapa deta hu. (Yes, we can find it. There is plenty available. There is that church also but where is the money? Whatever money comes, I print books with that.) Sumati Morarjee: Wo to ap bohot bada kam kar rahe ho. (This is a very great work you are doing.) Revatīnandana: So Mātājī's . . . if some of these books she hasn't got, we can give her. She's our Life Member. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, just now I am. Prabhupāda: She is life . . . she is life after life. (laughter) She is life after life member. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, but I'll talk to this, ah, Girirāja in Bombay about becoming the patron myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: I said, "Let us see." Prabhupāda: We . . . let us form a trustee, and you become the president of the Trust. (laughter) You become the president of the trustee, and do the needful. Sumati Morarjee: You know, just now that your . . . Prabhupāda: So, whether you agree to this or not? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately make her the president of the trustee, or Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: No, you see. Prabhupāda: Girirāja is also very nice boy. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, everyday he is there, because he says: "I want you . . ." Prabhupāda: You like him? Sumati Morarjee: He's a good man. Prabhupāda: Very good. Sumati Morarjee: "I want your advice." So first day I called him, he came. I said: "You I don't want. Where is that Śyāmasundara?" (laughter) Prabhupāda: His father is very rich man. Sumati Morarjee: Is he? Prabhupāda: His father is a very big lawyer, and mother, father, both came to me Calcutta. Mother, after all mother, she was crying, that "Give me back my boy." (laughter) So I, "You can take away your boy." So anyway, they are very good gentlemen. So . . . but he has . . . he's graduate in psychology. He's learned. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, he's a very nice man. So I asked him just now, I'm running a school. I said: "You come and, uh, give lecture," mean some stories . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you give some fruits? Sumati Morarjee: . . . to the children. No, I will take this. You give me a piece of paper, can you? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll take this for the children. Dhanañjaya: Isn't there some prasāda also, that's still out there in the . . . Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you give me . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Immediately write one letter to Girirāja that, uh, I'll suggest some names for becoming trustee, or you can suggest some of the Life Members you know. Sumati Morarjee: I know so many, but . . . ap suggest kariye. Ap Bombay kabhi ane wale ho? Abhi ap kitna din rahoge? Accha Swāmījī ap yaha kitna din . . . (you suggest. When are you coming to Bombay? How many days are you going to stay here? Okay Swāmījī, how many days . . .) *Prabhupāda: Bombay thoda idhar ka kam dekh*-dakh ke jayenge. Ap dekhiye na, humko ghumne dijjiye. Jaisa ap ne pehle force lagaya na. Starting apne to diya, to humko ghumne dijiye. (I will go to Bombay after checking out the work here. You look after it and let me keep touring. Just like you put an effort in the beginning. You made the start so let me go on a tour.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha to ap yaha kitne din theherne wale ho? Bas. Phir. October me ap kaha hoge? (Okay, so how many days are you going to stay here? That's all. Then. Where are you going to be in October?) Prabhupāda: Jaise ek mahina. (Around one month.) Paris. Maybe Nairobi. Then either Los Angeles or to India. October me to zarur India me jayenge. Udhar Los Angeles me ek makan kharidna hai. (In October, I will surely go to India. We have to buy an apartment in Los Angeles.) Because whatever that Māyāpur . . . you have been in Nava . . . Navadvīpa? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have been to Navadvīpa, Māyāpur, Śāntipura, then that Katwa. All those places I have visited. Prabhupāda: So Māyāpur we are constructing a big temple. And Vṛndāvana also. So, for maintenance of the temple perpetually, I want to purchase some property in Los Angeles, because here, Los Angeles, property gets nice income. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: Los Angeles. Indian man: Good income? Prabhupāda: Yes, because any ordinary room is about a $125. So $125 in our Indian exchange is about thousand rupees. So, thousand rupees, two rooms, who will pay in India? Sumati Morarjee: No. Nobody will pay. Prabhupāda: (laughter) Nobody will pay. So then therefore I thought that to purchase one, two house, so that as Vṛndāvana property . . . because I am maintaining now the whole institution by begging. But when Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa deities are there, there is no income. Sumati Morarjee: No, there won't be any. Both places . . . Prabhupāda: In Bombay we can go to you, "Mātājī, we have no money. Please give me some." Sumati Morarjee: No, that is different, but these things . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so, but Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa I want to make some provision. So I'm negotiating for that. This is one business. So Bombay . . . Bombay ke liye to ap hi . . . (For Bombay, you yourself are . . .) huh? Sumati Morarjee: Of course, you won't get so much rent for London properties. They're also very much appreciated. Prabhupāda: London property is very costly. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, very costly, but they're day by day appreciating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Doubled. In one year it's doubled. Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Forty percent has gone up in a year's time, on one property. Prabhupāda: Because the Indians are coming. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, they'll take all the property. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Sumati Morarjee: And started taking all the shops. All the cinema theaters. Prabhupāda: And London is practically now Indian. Sumati Morarjee: I always say that I see more Indians in London than really the people who are . . . Prabhupāda: Ye idhar bhi ap khada hoke khatiye, ek mandir accha banaiye na. Nahi, ye public hai interesting. Ap thoda din thehriye na toh idhar bhi ho jayega. Dus tarikh ke bad. Accha. (So you stay here and work hard, build one nice temple. No, the public is interested. If you stay here then the work will be done. After tenth. Okay.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha wo to hoga. Abhi to mere ko to jane ka hai aur mai October ke dus tarikh ko yaha ane wali hu. Nahi, dus me to mera meeting hai. To do char din pehle mai aungi. October char pach ko. To ap kabhi jane wale ho Swāmījī? (Yes, that will be done. Now, I have to go and I will be coming here on 10th October. No, on the tenth I have a meeting. I will come two to four days earlier. October 4th or 5th. So when are you going to leave Swāmījī?) Oh, so much prasāda . Dhanañjaya: Oh, we have prepared just a little for you. Sumati Morarjee: All right. I'll take and send it back, because the children are at home. Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Sumati Morarjee: I'll take, send you back your vessels. Did he give you last time? Prabhupāda: So if you have got some paper, you wrap it. Śyāmasundara: Here's a bag. Sumati Morarjee: So now, what . . . what is your problem? Ah, this is better. Prabhupāda: Ek ap hukum kar dijiye. Ki ek . . . (You issue an order. That one . . .) this boy, he's president of . . . of my Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: So what does he want? Prabhupāda: He wants to give me some car. To usko dispatch karne ka bandobast kar do. Ha, Detroit me. To idhar bhejna hai, phir apka jahaj me. Nahi, India me. (So make some arrangement to dispatch it. Yes, in Detroit. So it will be sent here, then on your ship. No, in India.) *Sumati Morarjee: Ha, wo . . . kaha Detroit me? Kaha bhejega, yaha? (Yes, that . . . where, in Detroit? Where will he send it, here?) So ask . . . you write to me a letter in Bombay, Scindia address, that such*-and-such car, so when is the ship due in Detroit. And then I will let you know, finding out the whole detail. Because UK office doesn't know the movement of the American ships. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: It's only Bombay who . . . which knows. So you write me in a letter to Bombay. Prabhupāda: When everything is settled up. Sumati Morarjee: When you are settled, when is the ship due, and we want to send. So there won't be any trouble in port? Prabhupāda: That he'll clear up. Sumati Morarjee: You better clear first. Śyāmasundara: Yeah . . . Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise what happens. Śyāmasundara: Kṣīrodakaśāyī knows. Sumati Morarjee: Government of India doesn't allow any import of car in India; otherwise you will come . . . Prabhupāda: His, his admission is that I am the guru of the Americans. I have no car. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: I know. But if, how, you have to take either through the American Embassy permission or government of India's permission is needed. Śyāmasundara: Yes, but Prabhupāda is an alien registered as living in the United States, so he can take his personal car. Prabhupāda: I am immigrant. I am immigrant, and I think I heard that one who has lived in America more than three years, he can take. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, you can bring car. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is the law, I think. Sumati Morarjee: So you can find out all this from India office. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, Gurudāsa can do that. Sumati Morarjee: And then will give you in Indian High Commission all details. Prabhupāda: Another, another is that we get some incense imported from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: I know. So what is that incense? Śyāmasundara: Punks. Punks. Prabhupāda: Punks. Śyāmasundara: Just a punk. Sumati Morarjee: Can you show me? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Show me some. Prabhupāda: Show, show, Spiritual Sky. Sumati Morarjee: I know, we also use that incense, but, uh, I don't know the name of it. Prabhupāda: So kindly get them carried from Hong Kong to Los Angeles. Sumati Morarjee: So let us see. Śyāmasundara: They're punks, without any scent, and then it . . . Sumati Morarjee: I know it . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: And when they come here, then they dip them into oil and make a scent. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Sumati Morarjee: That's why I . . . Prabhupāda: You get from Hong Kong . . . Sumati Morarjee: And take where? Prabhupāda: Huh? Take to Los Angeles. That is a . . . Sumati Morarjee: No, but one thing, if it is brought to Bombay via Hong Kong, then we can send it to Los Angeles by ship. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: By ship we can send it. Prabhupāda: Your ship does not go to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Sometimes it goes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: So, at that time it is handed over to Hong Kong ship. It will be delivered in Bombay. Then we reship it to Hong Kong . . . to Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Is that on a regular basis, that it goes to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, mostly. I'll let you know, because that service is also Bombay. These people, they don't know. So you can write one letter for this car, and another letter for this, so they're not intermixed. Prabhupāda: Yes, all right. Scindia Steam Navigation meant for carrying Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Everytime we carry. Prabhupāda: That was written in the beginning. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I think it was done by . . . at your expense. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That small pamphlet. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Scindia Steam Navigation Company carries Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to Western countries. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. She's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. In her office there is Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: These Gujaratis are especially, worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and they belong to Bhāratia community. They're all Vaiṣṇava. The whole, I have to say, Viṣṇu Svāmī Sampradāya, or Vallabha Ācārya Sampradāya. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, Vallabhācārya. Prabhupāda: Their guru . Sumati Morarjee: Vallabhācārya is our guru . *Prabhupāda: So, they, they're originally all Vaiṣṇava family. All Vaiṣṇava family. Bāla*-Kṛṣṇa. They are worship of Bāla-Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Śyāmasundara: I have that Gujarati Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we're printing the Gujarati Back to Godhead. Sumati Morarjee: What? Let me, what is it? Prabhupāda: We have got some . . . giving, give her that. Sumati Morarjee: This is from where you get? Prabhupāda: Yes, we get from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: Hong Kong. Why, is it good? *Prabhupāda: No, it is not good. It is raw. That we re*-scent it . . . Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: . . . different, in different way. Bhagavān: They dip it into oils. Prabhupāda: Scented oil. That's . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, and then it becomes . . . Dhanañjaya: They're known as firelighters, because sometimes they use them for lighting fireworks. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Oh, I know now. I understand. So you can present, tell me. Yes, this is Dvārakādīśa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvārakādīśa to apka hai. (Dvārakādīśa belongs to you only.) Sumati Morarjee: So you, you have started? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have started. Śyāmasundara: It's printed in Bombay. Sumati Morarjee: Where? Śyāmasundara: In Bombay. Prabhupāda: Recently. Śyāmasundara: This is the first one. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, because I have not seen it. Śyāmasundara: This is the first issue. Prabhupāda: This is the first issue. They have sent one copy. (knock on door) Yes? Sumati Morarjee: So, Swāmījī, can I take this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can take. Sumati Morarjee: So you must, you . . . initials. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, here. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: And this also, so I will always remember that I've been in London to meet Swāmījī, my . . . Swāmījī's godson. Dhanañjaya: And you're also president now, board of trustees. Prabhupāda: You, president, you give her this garland. Sumati Morarjee: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: But did you put it round Swāmījī's head? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Then I can take prasāda garland of Swāmījī. Dhanañjaya: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: Jaya. Haribol . Prabhupāda: You consider Śrīmati Morarji as the mother of the Institution. (laughter) Dhanañjaya: And you're our father. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Because, you see, today, then Swāmījī was in so much trouble, I still remember. He wrote to me some letter from America that, "I am sitting in the Central Park, all alone." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Daddy can't be alone. You've got so many students, you have no time to be alone. Prabhupāda: I was going to your agent's office, Battery . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Battery Place. Prabhupāda: Seventeen Battery Place. Sumati Morarjee: Yeah, 17 Battery Place. Prabhupāda: So I was asking him, "Find out when Scindia Navigation is going back." He said such and such date. "All right." Then I thought, "Let me stay another month, what I can do." Then again I was going . . . Sumati Morarjee: To find out. Prabhupāda: Find out. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know . . . Prabhupāda: . . . so he said: "Swāmījī, you are coming to find out, but you are not going back. What is?" (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know, there was one old man, now he has retired, who used to look after all service in that office. So he wrote to me that, "This Swāmījī wants to come. What to do?" I said: "Yes, whenever he wants to come." Prabhupāda: No, I got return ticket. Sumati Morarjee: "Yes, so you send him back, if he wants to come. But see that a good captain is on the ship." Then, uh, then . . . once he . . . came to Bombay, said: "Swāmī doesn't come." I said: "Now he won't come." (Prabhupāda laughs) And also give me, Swāmījī, that Gujarati . . . so I'll preserve all this. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, yes. *Dhanañjaya: Remember you were asking me just a few days ago about Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I was. I heard Swāmījī, you know, came to my house to read. Rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: From Bhāgavata . That is supposed to be the . . . Prabhupāda: Now, when I shall go to Juhu, I shall regularly begin all Bhāgavata . Sumati Morarjee: I want to hear, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: Yes, all Bhāgavata . *Sumati Morarjee: And you know, rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya is really the pañca-prāṇa of Bhāgavata; *otherwise it is all right. There is nothing important. That is the real soul of the Bhāgavata , this rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya . Prabhupāda: (to devotee) You have got duplicate copies of this? Sumati Morarjee: Have you got? Otherwise don't give me. Bhagavān: Yes, I have some copies I brought. Prabhupāda: All right, then that's all right. Sumati Morarjee: He has come from where? Bhagavān: Myself? I just came from Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: Detroit. And this Swāmījī from where? Revatīnandana: I'm staying here, in London. Sumati Morarjee: No, but you come from where? Prabhupāda: He's from America. Revatīnandana: From California. Sumati Morarjee: All from California? Śyāmasundara: He travels around England and preaches in all the villages, small towns. Sumati Morarjee: Where's that? Śyāmasundara: Here, in England, Scotland. Revatīnandana: I also met you in Bombay once. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have seen you in Bombay. And what about you? Dhanañjaya: I'm Scottish. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, because you look . . . Prabhupāda: In Edinburgh we have got a temple. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nice temple Sumati Morarjee: This Swāmījī's from there. Śyāmasundara: This boy is son of a Muslim family, Pakistani family. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so you have come from Pakistan. Devotee: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Which side? Devotee: Lahore, West Pakistan. Sumati Morarjee: I have been to Lahore. We had a very big office in Karachi. I've been to Karachi so many time. Next to, you know, the . . . (indistinct) . . . the office area. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of Pakistan now? Sumati Morarjee: Today that Bhutto is come and gone. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: You know he has left for today for Pakistan back. He came to see the Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Here? Sumati Morarjee: No, our Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Oh, our Prime Minister. Sumati Morarjee: And they were both met in Simla for four days, five days, and then they discussed various thing, and now they have come to an understanding that everything must be mutually done, and with the good faith, and they have to be . . . Prabhupāda: So, what is the use of keeping Pakistan? Let it, let, let, let them have another. Sumati Morarjee: I know, I know. But what about this Bangladesh also? You'll have to . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: . . . do something. Because I met so many people from Bangladesh, they were completely forgotten our culture. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: That's . . . we're going there next month, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. I think you remember him. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, very well. Śyāmasundara: He's got his visa now. He's taking a party there, to Bangladesh. Sumati Morarjee: Very good, but I hope they put . . . don't put you somewhere. That's not a very . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, reliable, I say. You have your office in Dacca? Sumati Morarjee: Huh? Prabhupāda: Dacca? No? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, our office used to be. We had property. We have lost about twenty*-six lakhs of rupees with both sides of Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Oh, you had to close your office? Sumati Morarjee: We had our own . . . (indistinct) . . . our own house in Chittagong, then our offices, then . . . (indistinct) . . . and our manager he was interned, and we turn a lot of them . . . in Karachi also. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: We had big properties in Karachi. Prabhupāda: So, so they cannot return? Sumati Morarjee: They're not returning anything. With great difficulty. I put up a fight with the British to get back my ship with that interned one passenger. Prabhupāda: Yes, that ship I saw when I was going. Sumati Morarjee: Yes. Prabhupāda: We met on the way. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: And that ship was returned. Sumati Morarjee: That was returned. So that I put pressure on the British here. That's how we got back the ships. Otherwise we would have lost those two ships. Prabhupāda: They're very uncultured. Sumati Morarjee: Very, very uncultured. And he came to see the Prime Minister, he brought all his sons, all his daughters, whole family he brought, to our . . . (indistinct) . . . because Bhutto, he is from Junagadh. I know him. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is a Gujarati? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, he is Gujarati Muhammadan. He is from Junagadh. His father . . . Prabhupāda: Jinnah was also. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, Jinnah was from Karachi, Bombay, but this Bhutto 'till he went away, he was in Junagadh. His father, son was Bhutto, was the Mayor of Junagadh. Prabhupāda: Just see. Sumati Morarjee: He was brought up in Junagadh. He was in Bombay all these . . . he's educated in Bombay. Śyāmasundara: Juna, Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Junagadh. Prabhupāda: No, no, Junagadh is a city. Sumati Morarjee: You know, in Saurashtra. Prabhupāda: Saurashtra. Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: There, he was born, bred, educated. He is from Bombay and Junagadh, Saurashtra. Like Jinnah. Jinnah, last time before Pakistan, came to my house, we were old friends, so he came to my house, so I . . . Prabhupāda: Jinnah was older than you? Sumati Morarjee: Oh? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, he was of Gandhi's age. Sumati Morarjee: I know. And he was a Communist member before. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Home Rule and all that. He was the man. So I knew him some many years. So he came to see me, and I talked to him. At that time, you know, his position had become very bad. So he said that . . . I started talking to him in English, he said: "Why do you talk to me in English? You talk to me in Kachchhi. We have common language." I said: "I thought you forgotten." He said: "How can I forget my mother tongue?" (Prabhupāda laughs). And after that, you know, he . . . this movement of Pakistan, and India became very strong and he went away. Prabhupāda: He was . . . he was paid for that running on the League of . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Prabhupāda: This all Englishmen subscribes. Sumati Morarjee: Because you know is the policy, "Divide and rule." Prabhupāda: Yes, that was it. Jinnah was made. Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise, nobody will do anything. So, I won't take your time Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down. Sumati Morarjee: Because you are tired, old. I'm going to preserve this mālā. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: I put it, give it to my daughter. She is very fond of roses. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, yes, she's crazy . . . Prabhupāda: How old she is now? Sumati Morarjee: She's ten. Today I'll . . . starting today in the afternoon, I remembered so much that I wish Swāmījī was here, she gave a Manipuri dance recital in our office and became Rādhā. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Sumati Morarjee: You know, aṣṭa nāyaka. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Sumati Morarjee: So the eighth nāyaka she became. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: Rādhā getting angry with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So there are other girls also. Sumati Morarjee: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Other girls? *Sumati Morarjee: No, she was alone, but the offices, we wanted to see. So I said: "All right." We had tape, so she danced on that, and the other one is Mākhan*-chori. Prabhupāda: Acchā . Sumati Morarjee: Two things she did. So I remembered so much. Prabhupāda: Just see how this girl is being trained. So similarly, we are teaching our students, small children . . . we have opened a school at Dallas, to . . . because these boys and girls, they're having children, they're being trained up. We are creating a new generation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: I tell you, we have got a very good Manipuri teacher. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: Last year I was in Manipura, I took this girl with me, my little girl, and I stayed there eight days, went to Govinda's temple and all these places. Prabhupāda: I, we cannot pay—we have no money. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. If these girls come to my school, I will teach them this dance. Prabhupāda: Where is your school? Sumati Morarjee: Oh, just opposite to you, my house. Devotee: Next to the temple, Juhu. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Sumati Morarjee: These small girls, whatever you have got, they can come twice or four or four times, three times a week. This Manipuri girl comes. Prabhupāda: No, we are opening here in America one school for training small children to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, so I told, Swāmījī, this Girirāja to come to our school, and tell them all mythological stories, and tell them . . . make them do some bhajana and all that. I hope he has started. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Ap (You.) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: What is your name? Sumati Morarjee: His name is Mr. Girish Joshi. He is from Dakore. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: Dakore Ji's temple. Prabhupāda: Now, in future, in Joshi family, Lord Kṛṣṇa will appear as Kalki. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so here is Joshi. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is named there in the Bhāgavata , Viṣṇu Joshi. The father's name of Kalki is Viṣṇu Joshi, and He will appear in Śambhala. Śambhala. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know that. They have built a temple. Prabhupāda: Hah? Sumati Morarjee: In . . . near Purī, there is a place, I forget the name, and in that they're building a temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: When Kalki avatāra . . . they've built a very big . . . huge, big temple. When Kalki . . . without any image. When Kalki avatāra takes place, Jagannāthajī will come there, from the Purī temple, and They will be worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: But that is after four lakhs of years. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I don't know that. Building a temple. (laughter) I, this time, I asked, I said, "Who's building all these temples?" They said: "It is for Jagannāthajī." I said: "Jagannāthajī has past." They said: "No, when the Kalki avatāra takes place." There is a Śambhala town somewhere near, small village, and . . . *Prabhupāda: So you'll not remain here upto Ratha*-yātrā. *Sumati Morarjee: No, I have my Ṭhākurjī's Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: At home. Prabhupāda: I see. Sumati Morarjee: So I today only wrote a very big letter what to do, how to do. I'll go there. Prabhupāda: At Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, my house. Prabhupāda: I see. *Sumati Morarjee: So . . . (indistinct) . . . Ratha*-yātrā. My Ṭhākurjī must be waiting. Prabhupāda: It is taken outside? No. Sumati Morarjee: No, inside. In the house. Prabhupāda: Within the compound. That's right. *Sumati Morarjee: Here I have seen Ratha*-yātrā, the first time in . . . when these people came here. I had no idea. That day I arrived. (laughter) So I said: "What is all this?" There were so many people and all hari-bolo and all that. "What is happerning?" So then I saw Ratha, I said: "This is Ratha-yātrā," near this place. Devotees: Marble Arch? Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. I was passing Marble Arch, Hyde Park corner. I saw all the people. I said, "What . . ." Then I found out. I thought . . . Prabhupāda: In San Francisco we hold, very gorgeous. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Three rathas. Sumati Morarjee: I have seen those pictures. *Prabhupāda: Three rathas, and thousands of . . . oh, they're very much, I mean to say, enthused to take prasādam and dance. So this year they asked me to come here. Therefore I have come to see the Ratha*-yātrā, how they . . . Sumati Morarjee: But, ah, you will be here in October? Prabhupāda: Ah, maybe. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, if you are here, you, you must write to me about Swāmījī's program. Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: So if you are here, I'll be here by 6th, 7th of October, because 10th is my meeting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: In London. So I will take your leave, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Jaya . Sumatijī ki jaya . All glories to Sumatijī. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: All glories to Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Ap utha lijiye. (You pick up.) So you write to me about this Hong Kong. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And for you becoming the president of the Trustee, I shall write to Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you write to Girirāja, and we will discuss ourselves. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: So much. Prabhupāda: Yes, take it. She can take whole . . . Sumati Morarjee: I'll take and then . . . Prabhupāda: She'll return the pot. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll send all the bati (utensils) and everything, including handkerchief. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Jaya! Go with. Go with. Take this. Take this. Help her. No, no, he will help you. (Sumati Morarjee leaves) Revatīnandana: Do you know how old she is, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Maybe over sixty. Revatīnandana: She's very much alive. So much alive. *Prabhupāda: Her father was one the richest men in Bombay, and her husband . . . her father*-in-law also one of the richest men. They're coming from very rich family in Bombay. And she's so intelligent. That Scindia Steam Navigation Company, very big company. It is a semi-government, and she's the managing director. All the big, big officers respecting as mother, carries out her order. And she's great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, but she does not agree with her husband. (laughter) Hmm? The husband and wife, not very agreement. Yes. Revatīnandana: Her husband is alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. They live separate building. They meet, but they live separate building, separate establishment. She looks one department of business, and he looks another department. That child, adopted. She has no own child. Revatīnandana: Oh. Bhagavān: So perhaps she'll ship the punks, and the vehicle. Prabhupāda: And the car also. And I've asked her to become the president of the trustee for construction of Bombay. She has agreed. Revatīnandana: What will the business of the trustees be? Prabhupāda: Hah? Revatīnandana: What will their business be as trustees? Prabhupāda: To raise fund. Revatīnandana: Hmm? *Prabhupāda: Raise fund. That's all. We approach these person for raising fund, that's all. Not for taking any lesson from them. Now, to have a temple here, we shall hold a meeting on the Indian gentlemen to raise the fund. You find out some place, immediately, so that while I am remaining, by performing Bhāgavata*-saptāha , I'm influencing the Indian rich men here; they can purchase. She will also contribute for October. July, August, September, October. So the negotiation will go on for at least three month; in the meantime, she will come. She will also contribute. I have already given her hint and she agrees. So let us find out some nice place. Bhagavān: You won't be here that long, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You're going to be leaving on the 20th, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, I may come back. Bhagavān: You may come back? Prabhupāda: Yes, finish the business. Bhagavān: Would you like myself or Haṁsadūta to stay here and help with this building? Prabhupāda: Yes, all together. Bhagavān: I was thinking of going to Paris, but I'll stay for a while and help here. Prabhupāda: Paris is not far off. You can go and come. Bhagavān: Go and come. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Bhagavān: Yeah! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Instead of becoming empty, it is better crowded. Our building, in the morning it was . . . there was no place to bow down. It was just matchbox packed up. Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That is because all the devotees are here from all the temples. But still . . . Prabhupāda: Could not sit even. That is good. And it is always like that? Devotee: No. Revatīnandana: Well, like I say, all the devotees are here from all the temples in England, so Edinburgh and Manchester, they're all here too. But always it is crowded, and, uh, on Sundays it's no good at all, because so many people come, they can't even come in to see the Deities, you know. They can't fit all in the temple. And, uh, and we don't advertise the Sunday feast. If we advertise the Sunday feast, we couldn't get them in the whole building. So we can't even advertise. So therefore they don't even mention it, people still come, and we can't fit them all in the building. And we're hoping that it would get so full that Kṛṣṇa will see and He'll give us a place quickly. Prabhupāda: Give her some position. And she's very influential, rich. But everyone wants some post. That is natural. Therefore I told . . . offered her the presidency of Bombay Trust, to raise the fund. In Bombay we have got very nice place. The best place of anywhere. And it is so nice in summertime, you'll find in paradise. So many coconut trees. You have seen? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: And we are . . . Nara*-nārāyaṇa has been engaged to make it a nice garden. All vacant land, we are getting nice garden, and the owner of the land, he has given me the best facility. First of all, the land is worth minimum thirty hundred thousands rupees. Revatīnandana: Thirty lakhs? Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs. But he has given me for fourteen lakhs. And that's also by installment, in three years, er, four years, without any interest . . . Devotee: Who is that man? Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair. Mrs. Nair. She is . . . she is also very nice devotee. So every year four lakhs of rupees, in three years, er, four years, fourteen lakhs , without any interest. So we have got good facility. And in Vṛndāvana, some gentleman has given us the land. Revatīnandana: Is the land in Vṛndāvana, is it in the city? Is it on the outside of Vṛndāvana, or is it right in the city? Prabhupāda: No, it is just in front of Bon Mahārāja's college. Śyāmasundara: It's in Rāman Reti. Prabhupāda: (laughter) The best place in Vṛndāvana. All aristocratic quality. And we have got potency. There are so many buildings, they are not being properly utilized. If we want to, you can purchase the whole area. Revatīnandana: How is the Gauḍīya . . . *Prabhupāda: Now you have got enough place in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa, in Bombay. There will be no difficulty if you go by thousands to India. You can live very comfortable. So you can go, batches by go—you can go and come back. So that foreigners, they visit, and gradually there will be unity between the so*-called Hindu, Muslim—all Kṛṣṇa's servant. This is the idea behind Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't believe in this skin disease. (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 17, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . ruler was a Hindu, the population were the Muhammadans. In Hyderabad the ruler was a Muhammadan and the population was Hindu. Now these Pakistanis, they say, "Now that is Muhammadan ruler. We shall occupy that." And Kashmir, Hindu ruler, the Hindustanis they said, "We shall occupy that." Just see how they created fighting. (laughs) Just see. So the Kashmir ruler, the Dr. Karan Singh's father, he, according to the British direction . . . British direction was that he can join any party: it is actually, but we don't interfere. He immediately surrendered to the Hindustanis, and the Pakistanis attacked Kashmir: "It is a Muhammadan country. We shall take it." So the ruler, he surrendered. So it was perfectly in order, because the British have gave . . . (indistinct) . . . selection. So when there was fight was going on, the Mountbatten, (laughs) Lord Mountbatten—he is still living—somehow or other he induced Jawaharlal to put the matter in the United Nations. So still it is not settled up, you see, but his duty was, "So why shall I go to the United Nations? The arrangement was that the ruler can select. He has selected already. Why should I go to them?" In so many way the things are implicated. I am talking on the platform of politician. So all these, I mean to say, Indian politicians, they were defeated by British politicians. (laughter) That's a fact. And actually British politicians, they are very trained up. Guest: Prabhupāda, please excuse me. Prabhupāda: Alright. Guest: I . . . I’ll see you tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So don't manufacture duty. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Duty is already there. Take it up and be happy. Guest: Okay. Prabhupāda: That's all. (laughs) Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: We are doing that. How we say: "Here is duty"? We may be very . . . not very much learned, but we take the simple thing, that's all. Our duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirmed it, my Guru Mahārāja confirmed it . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we be unnecessarily very learned man? Eh? There is a Bengali proverb, uthi chala kel balai derhi : "If one is too much intelligent, he should be hanged." (laughter) (laughs) Over*-intelligent. Kṛṣṇa may give me the good intelligence that whatever I have been able to do or what I am going to, let me be fixed up in my faith in Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I don't want anything. Why shall I create my duty? Duty is already there. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that in the world there is no problem, no scarcity. The only problem is that the people are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the problem. *But actually that is the fact. So our policy is that let people become Kṛṣṇa conscious—all problems solved. That is our culture. Caitanya caritāmṛta says, ye jana kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is first*-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sei baḍa catura ( CC Antya 4.67). Where is this word in the Caitanya caritāmṛta ? Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is very intelligent. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . the Caitanya caritāmṛta . Prabhupāda: Eh? It may not be. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sei baḍa catura. So we are taking this slogan. We are requesting that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious—you shall be the most intelligent person. Where is my difficulty? Śyāmasundara: Where is what? Prabhupāda: Where is my difficulty? Śyāmasundara: Difficulty. Prabhupāda: I have no difficulty. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have no difficulty. I have got so many direction from my predecessors. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, you defeated every Western philosophers, without any trouble at all. Prabhupāda: So actually if you follow, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), authorized persons, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. The difficulty is that we are misled by unauthorized persons. That is the difficulty. Guest (2): Your Grace, when I leave here tonight, may I consider myself a disciple of yours? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are good boy. I shall accept you. Take this prasādam . Guest (2): Jaya . Thank you. Śyāmasundara: So before going, you can have a ceremony? Prabhupāda: Mmm, he is a nice boy. Śyāmasundara: You will be going either Wednesday or Thursday—I am not sure yet. I am waiting for the tickets from Paris. We will come back. Prabhupāda: We will come back after a week or so. You also consider. I have explained my philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . you are intelligent boy. Guest (2): I shall be at the Commonwealth Centre tomorrow night, of course. And may I leave . . . will you contact me? Śyāmasundara: Sure. Dhanañjaya is the president of the temple, local president, so he will be constantly in touch with you. Prabhupāda: Our method is simple, our philosophy is simple. But if somebody brings intricate philosophy, we could answer. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda has just finished a book . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) We are not so simple that others will befool us. We are not so simple. Śyāmasundara: From Socrates up to Heidegger, Heisenberg, up to the latest philosophers, he has defeated them systematically, one by one. Ten months he worked on it. Incredible. (laughs) Every argument, possible argument. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. We failed big, big doctors, scientists. There was one Dr. Staal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he was a Sanskrit scholar or something. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit scholar. Dhanañjaya: Members of the Mensa Society? Śyāmasundara: Because they have no authority, no previous authority . . . Prabhupāda: No standard authority. Śyāmasundara: Mental speculators. Prabhupāda: Another philosopher is coming on the nineteenth. Śyāmasundara: Yes, that would be very interesting . . . (laughs) I forget his name. He is the leader of the spiritualist church in England. I don’t know his name . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): What is he coming here for? To . . . Śyāmasundara: Just to engage in a kind of a debate actually, just an exchange of views, dialogue. (laughs) Last session we had was with a geneticist in San . . . Los Angeles. In the world of genetics he is trying to find out how to create life out of chemicals. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Let us capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, that's all. (laughs) He will give us protection. That's right. Kṛṣṇa knows how to kill demons. Eh? Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? The horse demon, He controlled him by pushing His hand on the mouth, you see. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) A horse can be controlled by his mouth very easily. *Prabhupāda: Only mouth, that's all. Very easily. He simply pushed His hand, and when He pushed His hand, by His power he, the horse, began to feel the hand as hot iron. You see? Kṛṣṇa is all*-powerful. He can do that. Eh? Otherwise there is no meaning of His being all-powerful. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God, not . . . Even by His activities He is not ordinary. He had to meet so many dangers before He was accepted God. From childhood, when He was baby, just three months old, He had to struggle. He had to struggle with His position as God. And those who are claiming, "I am God," let these rascals establish his position that he is God. Then we accept that. You find out that picture of Kṛṣṇa, how He is controlling the horse, eh? Keśī. Śyāmasundara: It's here at the back. It's right at the back. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: It is in the first part. Dhanañjaya: Kṛṣṇa is so merciful that He puts Himself into so many difficult situations. Prabhupāda: And His friends are saying: "How Kṛṣṇa is doing?" (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Small friends. And they will come home and they will say to the . . . "Oh, mother, Kṛṣṇa did like this." "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa is so wonderful. Oh!" That is all. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: "May be some demigod, Kṛṣṇa." They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. They loved simply Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Neither they care whether Kṛṣṇa is God or demigod or . . . "He is our beloved," that's all. So simply if we develop our love for Kṛṣṇa, then everything will come to . . . (indistinct) . . . simply we have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of devotion. Otherwise it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa does not know Himself what He is. Guest (2): And we learn to love Kṛṣṇa by . . . Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Guest (2): . . . chanting the mantra . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): . . . the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): . . . and following the regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Simple thing. And there is dormant love for Kṛṣṇa. Simply we have to clear, that's all. Nitya*-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa's love is there, eternally. Otherwise how these European and American boys loving Kṛṣṇa? Śyāmasundara: Would you like to take rest now? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Guest (2): Thank you. (obeisances) (break) (end) Conversation -- July 17, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . ruler was a Hindu, the population were the Muhammadans. In Hyderabad the ruler was a Muhammadan and the population was Hindu. Now these Pakistanis, they say, "Now that is Muhammadan ruler. We shall occupy that." And Kashmir, Hindu ruler, the Hindustanis they said, "We shall occupy that." Just see how they created fighting. (laughs) Just see. So the Kashmir ruler, the Dr. Karan Singh's father, he, according to the British direction . . . British direction was that he can join any party: it is actually, but we don't interfere. He immediately surrendered to the Hindustanis, and the Pakistanis attacked Kashmir: "It is a Muhammadan country. We shall take it." So the ruler, he surrendered. So it was perfectly in order, because the British have gave . . . (indistinct) . . . selection. So when there was fight was going on, the Mountbatten, (laughs) Lord Mountbatten—he is still living—somehow or other he induced Jawaharlal to put the matter in the United Nations. So still it is not settled up, you see, but his duty was, "So why shall I go to the United Nations? The arrangement was that the ruler can select. He has selected already. Why should I go to them?" In so many way the things are implicated. I am talking on the platform of politician. So all these, I mean to say, Indian politicians, they were defeated by British politicians. (laughter) That's a fact. And actually British politicians, they are very trained up. Guest: Prabhupāda, please excuse me. Prabhupāda: Alright. Guest: I . . . I’ll see you tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So don't manufacture duty. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Duty is already there. Take it up and be happy. Guest: Okay. Prabhupāda: That's all. (laughs) Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: We are doing that. How we say: "Here is duty"? We may be very . . . not very much learned, but we take the simple thing, that's all. Our duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirmed it, my Guru Mahārāja confirmed it . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we be unnecessarily very learned man? Eh? There is a Bengali proverb, uthi chala kel balai derhi : "If one is too much intelligent, he should be hanged." (laughter) (laughs) Over*-intelligent. Kṛṣṇa may give me the good intelligence that whatever I have been able to do or what I am going to, let me be fixed up in my faith in Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I don't want anything. Why shall I create my duty? Duty is already there. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that in the world there is no problem, no scarcity. The only problem is that the people are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the problem. *But actually that is the fact. So our policy is that let people become Kṛṣṇa conscious—all problems solved. That is our culture. Caitanya caritāmṛta says, ye jana kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is first*-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sei baḍa catura ( CC Antya 4.67). Where is this word in the Caitanya caritāmṛta ? Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is very intelligent. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . the Caitanya caritāmṛta . Prabhupāda: Eh? It may not be. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sei baḍa catura. So we are taking this slogan. We are requesting that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious—you shall be the most intelligent person. Where is my difficulty? Śyāmasundara: Where is what? Prabhupāda: Where is my difficulty? Śyāmasundara: Difficulty. Prabhupāda: I have no difficulty. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have no difficulty. I have got so many direction from my predecessors. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, you defeated every Western philosophers, without any trouble at all. Prabhupāda: So actually if you follow, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), authorized persons, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. The difficulty is that we are misled by unauthorized persons. That is the difficulty. Guest (2): Your Grace, when I leave here tonight, may I consider myself a disciple of yours? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are good boy. I shall accept you. Take this prasādam . Guest (2): Jaya . Thank you. Śyāmasundara: So before going, you can have a ceremony? Prabhupāda: Mmm, he is a nice boy. Śyāmasundara: You will be going either Wednesday or Thursday—I am not sure yet. I am waiting for the tickets from Paris. We will come back. Prabhupāda: We will come back after a week or so. You also consider. I have explained my philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . you are intelligent boy. Guest (2): I shall be at the Commonwealth Centre tomorrow night, of course. And may I leave . . . will you contact me? Śyāmasundara: Sure. Dhanañjaya is the president of the temple, local president, so he will be constantly in touch with you. Prabhupāda: Our method is simple, our philosophy is simple. But if somebody brings intricate philosophy, we could answer. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda has just finished a book . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) We are not so simple that others will befool us. We are not so simple. Śyāmasundara: From Socrates up to Heidegger, Heisenberg, up to the latest philosophers, he has defeated them systematically, one by one. Ten months he worked on it. Incredible. (laughs) Every argument, possible argument. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. We failed big, big doctors, scientists. There was one Dr. Staal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he was a Sanskrit scholar or something. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit scholar. Dhanañjaya: Members of the Mensa Society? Śyāmasundara: Because they have no authority, no previous authority . . . Prabhupāda: No standard authority. Śyāmasundara: Mental speculators. Prabhupāda: Another philosopher is coming on the nineteenth. Śyāmasundara: Yes, that would be very interesting . . . (laughs) I forget his name. He is the leader of the spiritualist church in England. I don’t know his name . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): What is he coming here for? To . . . Śyāmasundara: Just to engage in a kind of a debate actually, just an exchange of views, dialogue. (laughs) Last session we had was with a geneticist in San . . . Los Angeles. In the world of genetics he is trying to find out how to create life out of chemicals. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Let us capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, that's all. (laughs) He will give us protection. That's right. Kṛṣṇa knows how to kill demons. Eh? Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? The horse demon, He controlled him by pushing His hand on the mouth, you see. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) A horse can be controlled by his mouth very easily. *Prabhupāda: Only mouth, that's all. Very easily. He simply pushed His hand, and when He pushed His hand, by His power he, the horse, began to feel the hand as hot iron. You see? Kṛṣṇa is all*-powerful. He can do that. Eh? Otherwise there is no meaning of His being all-powerful. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God, not . . . Even by His activities He is not ordinary. He had to meet so many dangers before He was accepted God. From childhood, when He was baby, just three months old, He had to struggle. He had to struggle with His position as God. And those who are claiming, "I am God," let these rascals establish his position that he is God. Then we accept that. You find out that picture of Kṛṣṇa, how He is controlling the horse, eh? Keśī. Śyāmasundara: It's here at the back. It's right at the back. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: It is in the first part. Dhanañjaya: Kṛṣṇa is so merciful that He puts Himself into so many difficult situations. Prabhupāda: And His friends are saying: "How Kṛṣṇa is doing?" (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Small friends. And they will come home and they will say to the . . . "Oh, mother, Kṛṣṇa did like this." "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa is so wonderful. Oh!" That is all. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: "May be some demigod, Kṛṣṇa." They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. They loved simply Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Neither they care whether Kṛṣṇa is God or demigod or . . . "He is our beloved," that's all. So simply if we develop our love for Kṛṣṇa, then everything will come to . . . (indistinct) . . . simply we have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of devotion. Otherwise it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa does not know Himself what He is. Guest (2): And we learn to love Kṛṣṇa by . . . Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Guest (2): . . . chanting the mantra . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): . . . the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): . . . and following the regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Simple thing. And there is dormant love for Kṛṣṇa. Simply we have to clear, that's all. Nitya*-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa's love is there, eternally. Otherwise how these European and American boys loving Kṛṣṇa? Śyāmasundara: Would you like to take rest now? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Guest (2): Thank you. (obeisances) (break) (end) Interview -- July 20, 1972, Paris Devotee: Yes. I think this gentleman would like to have some interview with Śrīla Prabhupāda. Would you like to translate? Frenchman: (translated) ...great spiritual master, kindly present yourself to the listeners to (indistinct). Prabhupāda: I have already explained what is our mission, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Already I have explained to some extent and if he wants some particular answer he can ask me. Devotee: He would like to know who you are, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and how old you are. *Prabhupāda: I am now seventy*-seven. Frenchman: (translated) For how long are you at the head of this movement? Prabhupāda: For the last five years. Frenchman: Can you please describe the dress in which you are clothed. Prabhupāda: You can ask about some philosophy. Dress, (how) people will benefit knowing about my dress. Instead of wasting time in that way, I can ask you why you are in dress... That's not very important thing. Devotee (2): Anyone can answer those questions. Frenchman: What do you think of the future? Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: Of the future. Prabhupāda: Future you can guess... (indistinct) ...taking and it is spread all over the world. Devotee: He's asking about your childhood, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: He's like to know something about your childhood. Prabhupāda: I was (indistinct) ...a devotee (indistinct) ...my childhood. My father was a devotee and he trained me.... Frenchman: Are you happy? (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: What do you think? What do you think? I'm happy or unhappy? (indistinct microphone is faulty) ...this wrong conception should be... (indistinct) We should know our real identity. Then everything will be all right. We are going on in the wrong concept of life. Therefore people are not happy. So (indistinct) ...spiritual master... (indistinct) If people accept... (indistinct) They'll be happy. Frenchman: (indistinct) ...history of many masters and many great teachers such as Jesus Christ and many others... (indistinct) ...come to... (indistinct) ...message. (indistinct) ...today on the same level. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because from God's side there is always an attempt to make the people right. As soon as they're wrongly directed, some messenger comes like Jesus Christ or Buddha or, before Him, Lord Kṛṣṇa. So what we are preaching that is not new. It is God consciousness. And all the great messiahs they came. But the thing is that people are changing in their different education mentalities. So we have to present things in such a way that intelligent person can accept the old teachings in the western countries. Like Lord Jesus Christ... Either they're not being followed or they're not properly understood because in London I saw hundreds of churches are vacant. That means that it's so practical that people have no more interest in Christianity or the Christian people could not convince them of the spiritual necessity of life. Many churches are for sale. That's not a good sign. That means people have lost interest in spiritual life but fortunately the younger generation, they are taking to this spiritual movement. Devotee: He asks: Lord Jesus Christ, when he came, brought a message of hope, peace and confidence, not only in this life but also the future life, life after death. He asks if Your Divine Grace would like to speak about (indistinct) your speaking. Prabhupāda: So we are giving a message by which everyone can be happy in this life and next life also. Generally all religious sects they do not believe in the next life. Or even they believe they have no clear idea of the next life. Frenchman: What is the present hope of the human society even beyond death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Human society is... Human life is an opportunity to stop all the problems of material life. So if he does not do so, if he does not understand or take to this business how to solve all the problems of life, then he's missing the opportunity. We are giving very nice idea what is next life, how we can elevate to the topmost spiritual planet, how we can live eternally, peacefully, with full knowledge. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for all these purpose. Frenchman: In society, the consumer society, (indistinct) miseries, what is the message you can bring people even in this day? *Prabhupāda: Yes. By accepting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they will be moralists, they will be religionists, they will be first*-class (indistinct), first-class politician, everything perfect by accepting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Frenchman: We have heard from not such a great master who has (indistinct) ...highest spiritual principles, (indistinct) ...like socialism and spiritual communism, he'd like to know exactly what this means. *Prabhupāda: Spiritual communism means that these so*-called communists they are concerned with the limited thing. Just like the communists in Russia or China, they are thinking of their country main only. They are not thinking of others. Or they're thinking only they human beings, not of the animals. But our spiritual comm... Communist means that we take care, not only of the human being, but of the animals also. We don't think that the human being is only our own community. We think every living is within the community, center being God. Just like spiritual our communism means... Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community. The idea is nobody should starve. I have to see whether the leader is also given proper food. Just like people generally save foodstuff from the attack of other animals. But spiritual communism... [break] We ought to make them happy. We want to see everyone is happy. That is our mission. Actually all our students who are presently working with us they are feeling happiness... (indistinct) So everyone will be happy if they take to this movement. We want to see that everyone is happy. That is our mission. We don't want to exploit others. Devotee: He asks specifically, in the Christian society (indistinct) already has a culture of... (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...that's (indistinct) culture. Nobody's actually Christian. Devotee: ...he wants to know when you elect someone into a social office... (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is our Vedic civilization that their life should be (indistinct). Devotee: ...how a man such as yourself, in such a high position and such hierarchy was able to leave all this in order to bring this message to others? *Prabhupāda: No. It's not to be... Life is divided into four parts: brahmacārī, student, gṛhastha, householder, vānaprastha, retired life and sannyāsa. Everyone should follow this principle. First of all, as brahmacārī student he should learn sufficiently what is the value of life. Then, when he's a householder, he should live properly with husband, wife and children*-properly. Then, after retired life, giving the responsibility of household life to grown-up children, he should take lessons from saintly persons. (indistinct) Then at the end he should take sannyāsa. Whatever knowledge he has gathered he must distribute by traveling from one place to another. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone should come out. Not that they should remain at home and drink and sleep for the whole life. This is Vedic civilization. Devotee: Do you think, in a world so much caught up in material way of things... (indistinct) ...be able to penetrate? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is penetrating. Just like here in France, in your country, how these young men they are taking part unless it is penetrating? Devotee: He says thank you very, very much. (indistinct) ...very much trouble before meeting you... (indistinct) Thank you very much for the few minutes you've afforded to us. (indistinct) ...for a long journey. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Frenchman: Merci. Devotees: Jaya! (end) Conversation -- July 25, 1972, Paris *Prabhupāda: . . . by the size of the ocean they will be finished. But in the spiritual world the ānanda , the ocean of bliss, it increases. Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanaṁ ( CC Antya 20.12). Vardhanaṁ means it increases. So . . . (indistinct) . . . in the blissful . . . (indistinct) . . . the more . . . (indistinct) . . . you will never be feeling tired. That is the difference between material pleasure and . . . (indistinct) . . . so I am very glad, when I installed this Deity, that place was not to my satisfaction, and it remained not very good . . . (indistinct) . . . I was little . . . (indistinct) . . . that these boys and girls . . . (indistinct) . . . serve you, you kindly dictate . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa will help you, buddhi-yogaṁ. The Australia is one of their colony, but there is no satisfaction. We have seen—we have got our temple in London—not that people are very happy. Even in London we have seen that Bedford Park, I was going every day for morning walk, but there also men were sleeping on the bench, without sufficient cover. So I used to show my students, "Why this man belong to British nation, who has got the British Empire background, why he is unhappy?" (aside) What is that sound, can it be stopped? Yes. Devotee: This is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So we should deeply study this fact, that people are struggling very hard, expanding themselves for achieving riches and wealth, but they're not satisfied. That's a fact. Even British Empire could not satisfy them—more extension, more extension, more extension. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire. But this desire for sense gratification is so strong that if you go on pouring butter on fire it will never be satisfied; *it will blaze more and more. (break) If one takes the lotus feet of Gaurāṅga as the ut . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . he immediately understands the essence of devotional service. We therefore first of all offer our prayers to śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda . Therefore Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura sings: *Anyone who has accepted the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya as everything—all the riches and all wealth—immediately he enters in the kingdom of devotional service. He tastes without taste. Now so many of our European and American boys and girls, they are sticking to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Unless they are tasting something blissful, how they can stick to these principles? Our . . . (break) . . . person like Lord Zetland . . . (break) . . . no gambling, no meat*-eating and no intoxication. He . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) ( kīrtana ) (break) (end) Conversation -- July 25, 1972, Paris *Prabhupāda: . . . by the size of the ocean they will be finished. But in the spiritual world the ānanda , the ocean of bliss, it increases. Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanaṁ ( CC Antya 20.12). Vardhanaṁ means it increases. So . . . (indistinct) . . . in the blissful . . . (indistinct) . . . the more . . . (indistinct) . . . you will never be feeling tired. That is the difference between material pleasure and . . . (indistinct) . . . so I am very glad, when I installed this Deity, that place was not to my satisfaction, and it remained not very good . . . (indistinct) . . . I was little . . . (indistinct) . . . that these boys and girls . . . (indistinct) . . . serve you, you kindly dictate . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa will help you, buddhi-yogaṁ. The Australia is one of their colony, but there is no satisfaction. We have seen—we have got our temple in London—not that people are very happy. Even in London we have seen that Bedford Park, I was going every day for morning walk, but there also men were sleeping on the bench, without sufficient cover. So I used to show my students, "Why this man belong to British nation, who has got the British Empire background, why he is unhappy?" (aside) What is that sound, can it be stopped? Yes. Devotee: This is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So we should deeply study this fact, that people are struggling very hard, expanding themselves for achieving riches and wealth, but they're not satisfied. That's a fact. Even British Empire could not satisfy them—more extension, more extension, more extension. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire. But this desire for sense gratification is so strong that if you go on pouring butter on fire it will never be satisfied; *it will blaze more and more. (break) If one takes the lotus feet of Gaurāṅga as the ut . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . he immediately understands the essence of devotional service. We therefore first of all offer our prayers to śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda . Therefore Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura sings: *Anyone who has accepted the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya as everything—all the riches and all wealth—immediately he enters in the kingdom of devotional service. He tastes without taste. Now so many of our European and American boys and girls, they are sticking to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Unless they are tasting something blissful, how they can stick to these principles? Our . . . (break) . . . person like Lord Zetland . . . (break) . . . no gambling, no meat*-eating and no intoxication. He . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) ( kīrtana ) (break) (end) Room Conversation and Interview with Ian Polsen -- July 31, 1972, London Devotee: No. Conversation -- August 1, 1972, London Prabhupāda: ". . . American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that." Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Did you have some places to see, Dhanañjaya, for Prabhupāda to see in the next day or two? Dhanañjaya: There's this one big church building we have seen . . . Prabhupāda: You have got? Tell me. Dhanañjaya: . . . in Hammersmith, and I thought he could see next week, Monday or Tuesday. Prabhupāda: Where is Himavatī? Haṁsadūta: She's . . . Prabhupāda: Heh? Haṁsadūta: I think she's upstairs in the . . . Prabhupāda: Call her. Prabhupāda: Ah bring. Come on. Śyāmasundara: There is one very large church . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: . . . to see on Monday. Prabhupāda: In Monday. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Not before. Prabhupāda: Why not before? Dhanañjaya: Well, we can arrange for this week also for sure. Śyāmasundara: Try to do as soon as possible. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Dhanañjaya: It's in Hammersmith. Hammersmith. Prabhupāda: Hm. How far? Dhanañjaya: From here its about five miles, four or five miles. Śyāmasundara: It's, ah, towards the airport. Prabhupāda: Towards the airport. So not bad. Śyāmasundara: Not bad. No, it's still downtown. Dhanañjaya: It's on the motorway. It's very near to the motorway, that motorway coming from the airport into central London. Prabhupāda: So why not see earlier? Have you got any description? Dhanañjaya: Well, we can't see it earlier because it belongs to the Methodist Church, and their committee members are meeting in another city, in Manchester, for a week. They have their . . . a big congress meeting there. So they don't come back until the end of this week. Śyāmasundara: So we can't see it while they're meeting? Dhanañjaya: Well we could see it from the outside. The caretaker should be there. Actually, we went there one day, Mr. Aran and Niṣkala and myself. Prabhupāda: Well, what is the description? Dhanañjaya: It's very nice. It's something like, ah, something like the size of this temple, but bigger. Śyāmasundara: Bigger than Los Angeles? Dhanañjaya: And also it has a steeple. Prabhupāda: Bigger, bigger. What is the price? Dhanañjaya: Oh, more than £250,000, £250,000. Śyāmasundara: Quarter of a million pounds. Two lakhs of pounds. Devotee: So that's six million dollars? Dhanañjaya: No, one million. One million dollars. Prabhupāda: You have got? Śyāmasundara: No, it's not a million dollars. It's only 600,000. Devotee: Six hundred thousand dollars. Dhanañjaya: Well they said between 250,000 and 350,000 pounds. Śyāmasundara: Oh, the money, the money won't be as important as the place. If we get the place, we can get the money, I think. Dhanañjaya: But still there is a congregation. It's not available immediately. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: There's a congregation there still. Revatīnandana: You have no idea when it would be available? Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I will go out, some of the others will go out, we'll find some places to look at for you. I have some friends, we'll all go see them. Prabhupāda: So what do you think of this Dr. Sar? As he speaks, it is all right, do you think? Śyāmasundara: Is he trustworthy? Prabhupāda: He speaks more than what he is? Dhanañjaya: Yes, he speaks more than what he is. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: Yes. I, I, I never liked him very much. I, I don't know what his motive is, you know. I don't think his motive is strictly devotional, you know? Dhanañjaya: He approached me, and he said . . . I was talking about Life Members to him, saying: "Why shouldn't it be one hundred pounds? This is a good price for Life Members." And he said: "Well, £51, this is the value of one thousand one hundred and eight rupees." He said: "I am prepared to give £51." Then he said: "Actually, I have given already more than £51. I have given Kṛṣṇa's jewelry, so why you don't make me Life Member?" And I said, "But you have been asked." And he said: "But I have given at least . . ." Śyāmasundara: Why not make him Life Member. He's given all the jewelry. Prabhupāda: But Is he a very influential man? Dhanañjaya: What's the definition of influential man? Prabhupāda: Oh he's not very . . . he talks? Dhanañjaya: He talks a bit about his community, but he's not produced anything from his community. Nothing. He's produced some money for the jewelry which is very nice. Śyāmasundara: His personal money. Personal money? Dhanañjaya: Not just personal money, no. Śyāmasundara: He's raised it. Prabhupāda: Do you think he can help us raising fund? Dhanañjaya: He can help, but I don't think he can raise thousands and thousands and thousands. See, personally he has no money. He told me he has no money. He's simply at his job, he gets so much money. Prabhupāda: And he's working somewhere? Dhanañjaya: Yes, he's working. He's in Oxford Street, very near. Prabhupāda: And he says that he's M.A., Ph.D.? Is he? So? He says so. Dhanañjaya: Yes, he's a graduate. Śyāmasundara: He's a doctor, a Ph.D.? Dhanañjaya: But still not so influential it seems. Prabhupāda: Neither reliable. Is he reliable? Dhanañjaya: Well, he's said so many times, "I can help, I can help." But still he's not produced anything positive. Prabhupāda: This carpet was donated by him? Dhanañjaya: Yes, this rug. Śyāmasundara: This? This has been here for years. In the beginning he did, I guess. Mukunda would know him. *Prabhupāda: So you can ask Nanda*-kumāra to give me milk in that way. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Or you can ask Himavatī. What is your formula? Revatīnandana: Ginger powder and a little bit of saffron and sugar. Heat it up for a while, and then afterwards mix thoroughly and serve like that. It's good for digestion. *Prabhupāda: You give Nanda*-kumāra, because he will give. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Kiran, tomar khobor ki? Cholche . . . kon mondire thako tumi? (Kiran, how are you? Everything's fine . . . which temple do you stay in?) Man: Ami Birmingham e chilam. Ta Birmingham mondir ta bondho kore dewa hoyeche. Tai ekhane . . . (indistinct) . . . sankirtan party niye jacche . . . (indistinct) . . . Birmingham ar Cardiff . . . (indistinct) . . . mondir . . . (I was in Birmingham. The temple in Birmingham has been closed down. So here . . . (indistinct) . . . going with the sankīrtan party . . . (indistinct) . . . to Birmingham and Cardiff . . . (indistinct) . . . temples . . .) Prabhupāda: Ekhon ekhanei acho? (Are you staying here right now?) Man: Ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Śyāmasundara: She was very happy, Sumati Morarji. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: She went away very happy. Prabhupāda: Everyone will be happy when you are Kṛṣṇa devotee. You see? She's seeing Kṛṣṇa's so many devotees. That is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. Devotee (2): She said she wanted to see the Deities before leaving. Prabhupāda: And she saw? Revatīnandana: Two months ago she came here for most of the āratik āratrika ceremony. The devotees came out to say goodbye to her, and she said, "Go back and do āratrika ." Prabhupāda: She can influence the whole Bombay, she's so . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, she knows everyone. Dhanañjaya: We need a president like her for the board of trustees for London also. Has she had any assistance? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She is doing her best. She is nice. Śyāmasundara: When is Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . going to come? Dhanañjaya: He's going to drive Prabhupāda to Kensington tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow? Dhanañjaya: Or Friday. Śyāmasundara: He can't come before? He should come . . . Revatīnandana: He comes almost every night, actually. Śyāmasundara: Next time he comes, have him come . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And the Joshi is the manager here? Śyāmasundara: That's her manager here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, then he's the one who should know everything. She said she would carry everything for us practically around the world . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . on her boats. We have many mṛdaṅgas , everything in India sent. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Calcutta. From Calcutta, their ship starts for all over the world. So simply . . . but Calcutta manager is rascal. Calcutta manager, that is difficult. Śyāmasundara: Why not we send . . . why don't we send a hundred or two hundred mṛdaṅgas to America and Europe, big shipments, sometime? We could really use them down through the years. Prabhupāda: But I know that Calcutta manager, he is a . . . haramzyada . . . (rascal . . .) (laughs) Revatīnandana: They won't become . . . they have many . . . all the big men in the Calcutta House, they won't become Life Members. None of them. I approached them. None of them will become Life Members. Prabhupāda: Calcutta House? Revatīnandana: That Calcutta Scindia office. There's several big men. The one I remember is Mr. Trivedi. I don't know if he's the head man. Prabhupāda: Trivedi. Revatīnandana: Yeah. I talked to him, but he will not become a Life Member. He wouldn't even give that much rupees. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They are not very highly paid. Within thousand. In Japan also. High salary is in your country. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Unexpected fabulous. (chuckles) Just like that boy who came to see me yesterday. He's Engineer. Śyāmasundara: Gopal. Prabhupāda: He's getting $900. That means our ten thousand rupees. Gopal is also not getting. I asked Gopal to continue his service and give $400 per month. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Each month. That's good. Very good. Prabhupāda: So here we shall give you books, cost price only, and you sell books by profit only and spend for building. Dhanañjaya: Traveling Saṅkīrtana Party is very strong here. There's some very nice boys here . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: They go out and they simply distribute, and just like I think in San Francisco, Keśava's . . . he began it here. They just go out with literature and simply to distribute literature, you know, in that way. Prabhupāda: So Keśava is feeling not well there, he can come here. Śyāmasundara: He wanted to. He wanted to bring his party here. Prabhupāda: Do that. Let him do that. Write him. Revatīnandana: But actually he may improve it even more. They are already a good group. They are doing all right. Prabhupāda: Very expert. Not only good, very expert. Dhanañjaya: They're averaging sixty, seventy pounds a day. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Sixty, seventy pounds a day they're collecting. Prabhupāda: You are not collecting so much? Dhanañjaya: What's that? Prabhupāda: You are not collecting so much? Dhanañjaya: Here in the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Well, we are collecting, on Oxford Street, we're collecting about forty, fifty pounds a day, and on traveling saṅkīrtana , sixty, seventy pounds, because they're doing it for more hours. So altogether we're over a hundred pounds a day. Prabhupāda: Now your GBC here. He has come. Now he make it hundred pounds daily. How to do it, he knows. Dhanañjaya: But, but already there is one hundred pounds daily coming. Two hundred pounds, then. Prabhupāda: And his best friend is George. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: I'm going to see him tomorrow. Is he in town? Prabhupāda: He can alone make . . . purchase a good temple. George alone can purchase. Śyāmasundara: He says George is in New York. Devotee: . . . (indistinct conversation) Śyāmasundara: When is he back? Devotee: About a week . . . (indistinct) Dhanañjaya: Oh, he may be with Mr. Ravi Patel. I think we saw him at the airport. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He's a printer, and he came in the van with you from the airport. He's a very nice man. He's doing a lot of printing for us. He says he has so many thousands of rupees in Bombay and in Madras from his printing. And he also wants to offer his services. I think he will come tomorrow to see you. Prabhupāda: Let him print our books, in Bombay. Dhanañjaya: He said he wanted to offer his services here for this temple somehow or other by getting money from advertising purposes. He's the director of some company that's just been started. It's called Golden Products. They make all kinds of consumer goods, shampoos and soap powders, so many things like that, for household use. And he wanted to use his symbol, Golden Products, with this Society. This is his idea. Prabhupāda: Golden powder? Dhanañjaya: Golden Products. Prabhupāda: In our Society? No. Dhanañjaya: I told him. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Devotee: Who is he? Dhanañjaya: He went to the airport today. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a boy. Dhanañjaya: His other idea was . . . he said he was working for Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba. He said in India he had raised so many thousands of lakhs of rupees by making posters. They are impersonal posters, so much nonsense on them, but they sold like lottery tickets. In this way he printed them and made so much money. Prabhupāda: I mean, he cannot suggest. We cannot accept anyone's suggestion. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. Devotee: That's proven to be too . . . too horrible. Devotee (2): Yes, to always. Śyāmasundara: I saw Mr. . . . who was that? What's that man's name who made our first record in New York? Devotee: Kallman. Śyāmasundara: Ah, I saw Mr. Kallman at the airport when you arrived in New York at that meeting, press meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Śyāmasundara: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, why did he not see me? Śyāmasundara: He didn't come. He was a little embarrassed, I think. Prabhupāda: He must be embarrassed. He's a thief. (laughter) Dishonest man never becomes happy. He did not pay me anything as royalty for the record. Devotee: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: He's still selling it, too. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He's still selling that record. Still making money Prabhupāda: Yes. Must be selling, and taking advantage of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Haṁsadūta: That's a nice record. Devotee (3): Is that Govinda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: That's a very nice record. Everyone is appreciating. Prabhupāda: But I heard that rascal always play my record and hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: At least he's benefiting somehow. I saw him in Bombay also, one day in the market of Madhubhag, Madhubhag temple? He was buying beads for his store in New York. Prabhupāda: He's selling beads, record, on our account. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: He was being cheated himself, in Bombay. He was being cheated like anything. He was paying one rupee for one strand of beads, those poor quality beads. (pause) Do you have a car? Prabhupāda: Now you can arrange for the car? Devotee: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi is going to be working on it, too, to raise funds. *Prabhupāda: So, at least two first*-class car must go to India. Śyāmasundara: Cadillac? Prabhupāda: Any. They must recognize, "Here the American guru is going." (laughter) Devotee: Have to get Cadillac. Prabhupāda: (laughter) If the American guru has no car, he's walking on the street, that is disgrace for you. Is it not? (laughs) And they criticize, "Oh, what kind of guru you are, you are walking on the street? You are American guru ?" Śyāmasundara: I was thinking if each devotee in the United States went out . . . Prabhupāda: You write on the car, "The Spiritual Master of USA." (laughter) And people will see, "Oh, here is the spiritual . . ." (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Should we do that? "Spiritual Master of USA"? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is . . .? Why not? (laughter) Śyāmasundara: It's a fact. If each of your devotees collected five dollars one day, that's $5,000. More. More than $5,000. Prabhupāda: That you . . . and soon as you issue letter, that will come. It is not very difficult. And she will carry. Make arrangement with the government so next time when I go to India, I sit on the car. That's all. Devotee: And Gurudasa . . . actually, we'd better do it soon, because it takes two or three months. Prabhupāda: Yes, so you can do. Devotee: We can talk about the details later. Prabhupāda: That I am immigrant here, I've stayed since 1965. The embassy, everyone, knows. So I can take my cars, that there is a law. So in this way take permission from the government, and you get the car, and I go and drive it. That's all. Devotee: You'll take this car with you, Prabhupāda, wherever you go? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: You will take this car with you wherever you go? Prabhupāda: As far as possible. People will see, "The spiritual master of USA is going there." Śyāmasundara: Supposing you want to go to Bombay. You can fly to Bombay and someone can drive the car there. And then when you're in Bombay, you can drive it in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, you can go from Calcutta to Agra, nice road. And from Agra to Bombay. Śyāmasundara: How many days? Two days? Prabhupāda: No, no. One day, two days. Yes. Even if it runs fifty mile per hour, so from morning, early morning to noon, say six hours if we run, it's three hundred miles in the morning and three hundred miles in the evening, and stay at night. And then the next day three hundred miles, three hundred . . . six hundred miles. Twelve hundred miles means anywhere you go from Calcutta to Bombay, Calcutta to Madras, Calcutta to Delhi, within twelve hundred miles. Within two days from anywhere to anywhere you can go. India's length and breadth is not so wide as in your country. You have got . . . that is also not good road, in your . . . but in Calcutta, to Calcutta–Bombay, Madras, Delhi, there are good roads. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Good roads. So we can go by road. Devotee: So begin campaigning right away, collecting funds for the vehicle. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (to Śyāmasundara) And you are a good driver. (laughter) Eighty miles. You once went eighty miles, his father's car. His father gave a very nice car for my riding. His father, mother, sister met me in Portland. Very nice gentleman, mother nice, sister very beautiful. Śyāmasundara: But silent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I have written to her some letters, but silence. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They are not very happy that you are in this movement; not in the family, naturally. They think, "Our lost child." (laughter) They cannot appreciate that, "My child is lost for better purpose." That is the case. Revatīnandana: Actually, I wanted to ask you about something like that. When I took sannyāsa in Calcutta, some time afterward, I used to correspond with my parents. So I sent them a letter explaining what was sannyāsa , I had taken sannyāsa , and that I didn't want to hear so much more about nieces, nephews, things like that that I have in that family. I said: "If you want to talk, now we should talk about Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So I didn't hear anything from them for about six months. But just the other day I received a letter . . . Prabhupāda: Then don't. Now you have taken sannyāsa , you don't. Revatīnandana: I shouldn't do it at all. Prabhupāda: No. Revatīnandana: But she's quite intelligent. She's asking . . . Prabhupāda: Your mother? Revatīnandana: Yeah . . . all about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. She has the *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Your mother, your mother must be intelligent because you are intelligent. Your mother must be intelligent. Without mother being intelligent, no intelligent son comes out. A son inherits the quality of mother, and the daughter inherits the quality of father. This is natural. Revatīnandana: So the letter is so . . . she's told me, she says: "Two reasons I want to hear from you: one, I want to know how you are," that's the body. She says also, "I'm interested in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement," because she's noticed that the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: That is mother's anxiety. You see all this? Revatīnandana: So I should not respond? Prabhupāda: Hmm, you can send news: "Mother, I'm all right." That's all. Revatīnandana: That's all right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't worry. No. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was sending news to His mother. Revatīnandana: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Although He never went to mother. Revatīnandana: It's hard for the family, because my mother's brother is Viṣṇujana Mahārāja's father, right? So they also figure they have lost one son. They don't hear from him at all, and now she doesn't hear from me at all. So the whole family is very miserable. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hmm. But they have lost for the better. Revatīnandana: Yes, but they don't understand that. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Lost not in vain. They will be benefited. They will be benefited. You are giving the best service to the family. What about your mother, Himavatī? Himavatī: I never hear from her anymore. Prabhupāda: Huh? Himavatī: I never hear from her anymore. Prabhupāda: She's also not very happy? Himavatī: No. I don't think she's very happy with me. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyway, you serve Kṛṣṇa and then your mother will be best served. Kṛṣṇa will favor all the family members of a devotee. You have seen from Prahlāda Maharaja's statement. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that anyone coming to become His devotee, He takes care of the family of the devotee—spiritually, for their emancipation. *That is natural. Just like government. If somebody dies in the war field, the government takes care of the whole family. Similarly, if the government has so much sense, do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is nonsense? He also takes care of the family of the devotee. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22). Where is Nanda-kumāra, Pradyumna? *Śyāmasundara: Pradyumna's been studying all day. Ah . . . Nanda*-kumāra may be . . . is he there in the room? Prabhupāda: No, I don't want. Maybe sleeping? Devotee: He is tired. Prabhupāda: Not very tired. What was it? Devotee: Pradyumna didn't take rest last night, I don't think. *Prabhupāda: Pradyumna . . . Nanda*-kumāra was sleeping. Śyāmasundara: Charlie Chaplin kept us up all night. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Charlie Chaplin kept us up all night. (laughs) Charlie Chaplin film. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was nice. (laughter) He is really funny man. (laughs) He has got originality. All his comic play has got some originality. That is the beauty. How he invented! (laughs) I think that character, when he was a drunkard, he's a great friend. (laughs) When he's not drunkard, "Who is this man?" (laughs) He's grave, as rich man. *And as drunkard, "You'll pay him. You are my friend, life*-long friend. Whatever you want, you take." (laughs) So these characters he's painting, it's very good intelligence. And he made him friend when he was going to commit suicide. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he stopped him. Prabhupāda: He stopped him. Accidentally he stopped. (laughs) Not willingly. Śyāmasundara: Yes. He tried to pull him up from the water, and he went in himself. (laughing) Prabhupāda: It is very nice, funny man, with intelligence. And before him there was another, Mr. Max Linder. Śyāmasundara: Max Linder. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was also very funny Englishman. In our childhood we used to enjoy their play, Max Linder and Chaplin, ah, Charlie Chaplin. Haṁsadūta: They were showing them in India? Prabhupāda: Uh? Yes. Max Linder, I remember, he was sitting in a park. (laughter) You know? Revatīnandana: No. I don't know anything about it. Prabhupāda: He was sitting in a park, so that English dress, that tail coat? What is called? Śyāmasundara: Coattails, yeah. Prabhupāda: So the tail was hanging, so some naughty boy, they fixed up nails, you see? So when he got up, the whole tail gone, you see? But he could not understand. He went to the ball dance. So he was dancing, so everyone's seeing to his tail, in this way. So he thought, "What is the matter?" He went to the mirror and he saw, "Oh, my tail is lost." (laughs) *Then he came again in the ball dance and he was pushing everyone, just to show. And everyone asking, "What is this? What is this?" "Oh, you do not know? This is latest fashion. This is latest fashion." Then all of them cut the tails. I think he had taken the idea, laṅguli*-hīna śṛgala (Hitopadeśa). This is Sanskrit story, that laṅguli-hīna śṛgala , or monkey, he lost his tail, and he began to advertise, "This is the latest fashion." *So that ball*-dancing without tail, that was, I remember, it is very laughing. They say that Charlie Chaplin is the student of Max Linder. He learned this funny play from Max Linder. So I knew Charlie Chaplin is a Englishman. Haṁsadūta: Yes, he is. Prabhupāda: He is Englishman. Haṁsadūta: He went to America and then he made all these films. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He went to America and he made a lot of money there. Indian man: As far as I know, Prabhupāda, he was Jew, but he used to live in east of London, or south of London. There is an autobiography about it. Prabhupāda: Max Linder, ah, Charlie Chaplin? Yes. He was a London man. Śyāmasundara: But that movie was filmed in Los Angeles, the one we saw last night. In Hollywood. All the palm trees and the mountains behind. Indian man: One of his elder sons, he's still living in Hampstead Heath. He has got the house in Hampstead Heath. Prabhupāda: Oh, his eldest son. And where he is, Charlie Chaplin? Devotee: In America. Prabhupāda: In America? Devotee: He's lives in Switzerland. Indian man: No, no, he lives in the Europe somewhere. Switzerland, most . . . sometimes coming in Hampstead Heath. Devotee: Geneva. I think Geneva. Prabhupāda: He has got big family? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: You said that he's producing still child? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, he produced last year, or two years ago. Indian man: He married again. Haṁsadūta: It was in Life magazine. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) Haṁsadūta: It's already about 10:30. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees leave) Prabhupāda: So ask Pradyumna if he wants to give. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . viṣaya chāḍiyā . Oh, yes, then it is . . . (indistinct) . . . viṣaya chāḍiyā , se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari , parama karuṇa , pahū dui jana (Gaura*-Nityānander Dayā 2). But even if we do speculation business and do it for Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. Śyāmasundara: Not so high a class. Prabhupāda: We are doing little business because gṛhasthas , they require money. All right, do some incense, this, that. That's all. Not very big business. If one is expert like Arjuna or Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, that is different thing. Just like this Advaita, he was given in Press. Now he sees that, "I can work anywhere else, I can get money. Why should I waste my time?" He neglected. That means viṣaya attracted him. He thought, "I am qualified man. Why should I waste my time with this Press?" Therefore he gone to hell. He sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and now he's getting some money he's satisfied. He's thinking that he has become a big man. Śyāmasundara: Ātreya Ṛṣi went to see them in New York the last day, but they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: Both . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: They are getting money from other karmīs , so why they should come? They are thinking that "As family man we must make money." Ato gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair , huh? House, land, children, friends, money for increasing their illusion. Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Then entanglement. Finish. *He does not know that he is being finished, and he's thinking that, "I am making profit." Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jāta. This rascal, he's being defeated. He does not know. He got the chance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And he is attracted by little pounds, dollar. (pause) But his wife is good, Balai Dāsī. She is coming. Śyāmasundara: Yes, she came to maṅgala-ārati. Prabhupāda: She comes, and she said: "Then we live separately," Advaita. He (she) doesn't like. He's such a rascal. Such a nice, good, beautiful wife, and he's neglecting. Milk, here they take cold milk, and they. No. Milk should be hot, and it should be taken little, little. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is the way of taking milk. And this masalā , it has made taste good. In India, especially in Northern India, Punjab, they will take at night milk, invariably. No other things. They, all businessmen, the Marwari Gujaratis, they'll take food before evening, and then again they work. *Then after ten they will come home and take little milk and go. (pause) So fund*-raising committee maybe established in Bombay, making her the president of the Trust. Then Giriraja will have no difficulty. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They will contribute. And if she canvasses, she can collect lakhs . Śyāmasundara: But one thing is, if Giriraja takes advantage and begins preaching in her school daily . . . she's invited him, open invitation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it will be pleased. Śyāmasundara: Then when she'll see her students improve, and she'll give us all the help. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got land, many people will contribute materials. Materials . . . if we get materials from many big, big merchants . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, like, ah, Tarachand. Prabhupāda: Cement, iron, they will . . . "All right. Give it." Goods, anyone will give. Śyāmasundara: Tarachand Gupta, I think his name is. Prabhupāda: He is also our Life Member. He is nice. Śyāmasundara: Iron merchant. Prabhupāda: He wanted to invite me one day. He met me on the path. Do you remember? Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: He's one of the richest men. Śyāmasundara: Yes. I think when you go back there the next year, or next autumn . . . Prabhupāda: Now we have created some impression that we are doing something nice. Even Keating is also impressed. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. We're not wandering from village to village anymore. We're settled. Prabhupāda: No. Even we wander from village to village, people are being impressed that we are doing something good. Actually it is so. I tell you it is so. One who cannot understand it, he is a fool. Actually we are doing the best work, God consciousness. And actually it is a fact: simply for want of God consciousness they are suffering. That's all. There is no other reason. The only reason is this. Just like this morning I said that, "God is the proprietor. Why you are claiming proprietor? You may be manager, not proprietor." Actually, that is our position. Just like I am head of this institution, but I am not dealing as proprietor. I am dealing as manager, head. Is it not? Śyāmasundara: This is the only society where Kṛṣṇa is the owner of everything. Prabhupāda: And all my assistants, they are also working in that capacity. If I would have been proprietor, then they would not have been interested. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I would have collected the money and used for my sense gratification. Then nobody would help me. Śyāmasundara: I think the English milk is better than American milk, isn't it? Prabhupāda: I think so. This is from Holland. Śyāmasundara: Oh. There's some famous islands between England and Holland called the Jersey Islands. There's special milk comes from Jersey. Jersey milk, the best. Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision—their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why . . . they ask, "What is your specialness?" and "Just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are . . ." (aside) Oh, there is no water. "You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. So if you take, others will take." That is my aim. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter) That is, they are afraid. Because the Britishers, they kept Indian culture suppressed so long because . . . (break) . . . amongst the Kṣatriya , kings, in special cases. Not for public. Among the Kṣatriyas . And among the Vaiśyas , one day in a year, on Diwali to try one's luck. One day they will bet. Not amongst the Brāhmins or the Śūdras . Śūdras have no money to gamble, and Brāhmins prohibited. The Kṣatriyas , they are also allowed in special cases, and Vaiśyas were allowed to engage in gambling one day in a year. That means restricted. Śyāmasundara: Boy, that system of dharma . . . we can start discussing it tomorrow in our philosophy class. It's just so perfect. Everything is . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whole plan is perfect. Śyāmasundara: But the British systematically broke it down. Prabhupāda: Because Lord Macaulay gave them in this study, they said that if you keep the Indians in their original culture, then they cannot be broken. Gandhi took that state: noncooperation. Don't cooperate with them. And then kill them. Śyāmasundara: This man who wrote this book made an interesting comment. He said that after . . . or before the First World War, when the British were entering the First World War, they got the . . . they made a promise to the Indians that, "If you help us fight this war, then we will give you freedom afterwards." Prabhupāda: They did not. Śyāmasundara: They helped, but they didn't give them freedom. So Gandhi or the others, they took that Azad . "They have broken their promise, so now we can break our cooperation, noncooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. They actually expanded their empire they only won the two war by Indian cooperation. Therefore these big men like Attlee, when they thought that, "India is going out of our hand," so don't dream of our empire. Forget it. They voluntarily quit it. Śyāmasundara: The whole thing. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now they are not, those Englishmen, as they were in Victoria days all. Nobody cares for you. Śyāmasundara: You'll see the last remnants at that Commonwealth Club, I think, engagement. No more, no one cares. Prabhupāda: Commonwealth is in name. (pause) Śyāmasundara: Still, there is something about London. Everyone likes to come here. There's so many . . . there's not enough hotel rooms even. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: There's not even enough hotel rooms to accommodate so many tourists who come here to London. Prabhupāda: London is still famous. People outside, they have got very high idea about London. Śyāmasundara: Civilized. Very civilized city. Prabhupāda: Why civilized? Do you think it is especially civilized? Śyāmasundara: Well, a lot more than America, anyway. By comparison it seems civilized, in the sense there is not so much violence. There's not . . . people are honest, upright, moral, a little more. Prabhupāda: In America general life is becoming wretched. Śyāmasundara: Wretched. Police don't even carry guns here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: Policemen don't even carry guns in Britain, but in America every policeman's got at least one gun. Prabhupāda: The Englishmen . . . I've studied Englishmen. They consider America is still (un)civilized. They say like that. They, in making up. Śyāmasundara: Still uncivilized, yeah. *Prabhupāda: But here also hippy*-ism growing. Śyāmasundara: They've lost that old aristocracy civilization. Losing it fast. (pause) *Prabhupāda: So write Girirāja immediately a letter, that she has agreed to become the president of the Trust. You make a Trust body for fund*-raising, and our best Life Members, and Sumati Morarji, and make her the president of the Trust. You remain the secretary, and other also, as treasurer also. One or two of her own men. Śyāmasundara: Just a small number. Not a big Trust. Prabhupāda: Hmm. In this way you raise fund. Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, he should start utilizing her invitation to teach in the school sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, and she'll cooperate. And write letter for permission for carrying our motorcar and incense. Śyāmasundara: Yes, and inform Gurudāsa . . . Prabhupāda: She has already agreed that, ah, what is called? Punks? The punks sent to Calcutta, and from there they carry to Los Angeles. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. I'm wondering why they can't take them directly. Prabhupāda: Directly not very many ships come to Hong Kong. Śyāmasundara: Oh, from Hong Kong that way, that direction, they don't come. They come on their way back. I see. Yeah, they take Chinese goods from Hong Kong to India. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They take Chinese goods from Hong Kong to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: There's not many from Hong Kong to America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore she said send to the . . . India. Take information. Śyāmasundara: Transfer to another boat. That will save them a thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's a thousand dollar contribution. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. And as it grows, it will increase. Prabhupāda: And send them a Gujarati papers, our magazine, distribution amongst their workers. Very satisfying, they will be satisfy. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Tell that to Girirāja? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Hundred, two hundred magazines. Prabhupāda: Not hundred. Say fifty, for distribution amongst his officers. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: So that everyone will be satisfied. Śyāmasundara: I think Kṣīrodakśāyī has the information on that car business. Because he once inquired and got papers. He may have them here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So make arrangement, at least two cars, nice cars. Śyāmasundara: One car, one van? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: One car and one van? Prabhupāda: Van? What is the use of van? Śyāmasundara: Well, they can carry many people, that's the thing, like a saṅkīrtana party. Prabhupāda: Saṅkīrtana may be six men. They can go in car. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: And better for carrying our luggage, add in the car some small . . . Śyāmasundara: Trailer. Prabhupāda: . . . trailer, yes, two . . . two wheel. Oh, it will go. Devotee: The advantage of the van is that they can sleep in it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The advantage of a van is that it can be used for sleeping purposes also. Prabhupāda: Sleeping purpose in India, tropical country, if you carry camp, if you want to sleep somewhere you just immediately set up a camp and pass night very comfortably. And you go on the field passing stool. Just catch up some watery place. (laughter) Then you can cook, you can take bath, you can wash your dishes, then put up on the trailer and go on. Śyāmasundara: Mostly we'll be going to big . . . Prabhupāda: Or if you can send one van also, two cars and one van. Śyāmasundara: Mostly we'll be going to bigger cities anyway. The roads between big cities are all right. But if we go places . . . Prabhupāda: Work sincerely and everything will be supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Now take . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 1, 1972, London Prabhupāda: ". . . American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that." Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Did you have some places to see, Dhanañjaya, for Prabhupāda to see in the next day or two? Dhanañjaya: There's this one big church building we have seen . . . Prabhupāda: You have got? Tell me. Dhanañjaya: . . . in Hammersmith, and I thought he could see next week, Monday or Tuesday. Prabhupāda: Where is Himavatī? Haṁsadūta: She's . . . Prabhupāda: Heh? Haṁsadūta: I think she's upstairs in the . . . Prabhupāda: Call her. Prabhupāda: Ah bring. Come on. Śyāmasundara: There is one very large church . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: . . . to see on Monday. Prabhupāda: In Monday. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Not before. Prabhupāda: Why not before? Dhanañjaya: Well, we can arrange for this week also for sure. Śyāmasundara: Try to do as soon as possible. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Dhanañjaya: It's in Hammersmith. Hammersmith. Prabhupāda: Hm. How far? Dhanañjaya: From here its about five miles, four or five miles. Śyāmasundara: It's, ah, towards the airport. Prabhupāda: Towards the airport. So not bad. Śyāmasundara: Not bad. No, it's still downtown. Dhanañjaya: It's on the motorway. It's very near to the motorway, that motorway coming from the airport into central London. Prabhupāda: So why not see earlier? Have you got any description? Dhanañjaya: Well, we can't see it earlier because it belongs to the Methodist Church, and their committee members are meeting in another city, in Manchester, for a week. They have their . . . a big congress meeting there. So they don't come back until the end of this week. Śyāmasundara: So we can't see it while they're meeting? Dhanañjaya: Well we could see it from the outside. The caretaker should be there. Actually, we went there one day, Mr. Aran and Niṣkala and myself. Prabhupāda: Well, what is the description? Dhanañjaya: It's very nice. It's something like, ah, something like the size of this temple, but bigger. Śyāmasundara: Bigger than Los Angeles? Dhanañjaya: And also it has a steeple. Prabhupāda: Bigger, bigger. What is the price? Dhanañjaya: Oh, more than £250,000, £250,000. Śyāmasundara: Quarter of a million pounds. Two lakhs of pounds. Devotee: So that's six million dollars? Dhanañjaya: No, one million. One million dollars. Prabhupāda: You have got? Śyāmasundara: No, it's not a million dollars. It's only 600,000. Devotee: Six hundred thousand dollars. Dhanañjaya: Well they said between 250,000 and 350,000 pounds. Śyāmasundara: Oh, the money, the money won't be as important as the place. If we get the place, we can get the money, I think. Dhanañjaya: But still there is a congregation. It's not available immediately. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: There's a congregation there still. Revatīnandana: You have no idea when it would be available? Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I will go out, some of the others will go out, we'll find some places to look at for you. I have some friends, we'll all go see them. Prabhupāda: So what do you think of this Dr. Sar? As he speaks, it is all right, do you think? Śyāmasundara: Is he trustworthy? Prabhupāda: He speaks more than what he is? Dhanañjaya: Yes, he speaks more than what he is. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: Yes. I, I, I never liked him very much. I, I don't know what his motive is, you know. I don't think his motive is strictly devotional, you know? Dhanañjaya: He approached me, and he said . . . I was talking about Life Members to him, saying: "Why shouldn't it be one hundred pounds? This is a good price for Life Members." And he said: "Well, £51, this is the value of one thousand one hundred and eight rupees." He said: "I am prepared to give £51." Then he said: "Actually, I have given already more than £51. I have given Kṛṣṇa's jewelry, so why you don't make me Life Member?" And I said, "But you have been asked." And he said: "But I have given at least . . ." Śyāmasundara: Why not make him Life Member. He's given all the jewelry. Prabhupāda: But Is he a very influential man? Dhanañjaya: What's the definition of influential man? Prabhupāda: Oh he's not very . . . he talks? Dhanañjaya: He talks a bit about his community, but he's not produced anything from his community. Nothing. He's produced some money for the jewelry which is very nice. Śyāmasundara: His personal money. Personal money? Dhanañjaya: Not just personal money, no. Śyāmasundara: He's raised it. Prabhupāda: Do you think he can help us raising fund? Dhanañjaya: He can help, but I don't think he can raise thousands and thousands and thousands. See, personally he has no money. He told me he has no money. He's simply at his job, he gets so much money. Prabhupāda: And he's working somewhere? Dhanañjaya: Yes, he's working. He's in Oxford Street, very near. Prabhupāda: And he says that he's M.A., Ph.D.? Is he? So? He says so. Dhanañjaya: Yes, he's a graduate. Śyāmasundara: He's a doctor, a Ph.D.? Dhanañjaya: But still not so influential it seems. Prabhupāda: Neither reliable. Is he reliable? Dhanañjaya: Well, he's said so many times, "I can help, I can help." But still he's not produced anything positive. Prabhupāda: This carpet was donated by him? Dhanañjaya: Yes, this rug. Śyāmasundara: This? This has been here for years. In the beginning he did, I guess. Mukunda would know him. *Prabhupāda: So you can ask Nanda*-kumāra to give me milk in that way. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Or you can ask Himavatī. What is your formula? Revatīnandana: Ginger powder and a little bit of saffron and sugar. Heat it up for a while, and then afterwards mix thoroughly and serve like that. It's good for digestion. *Prabhupāda: You give Nanda*-kumāra, because he will give. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Kiran, tomar khobor ki? Cholche . . . kon mondire thako tumi? (Kiran, how are you? Everything's fine . . . which temple do you stay in?) Man: Ami Birmingham e chilam. Ta Birmingham mondir ta bondho kore dewa hoyeche. Tai ekhane . . . (indistinct) . . . sankirtan party niye jacche . . . (indistinct) . . . Birmingham ar Cardiff . . . (indistinct) . . . mondir . . . (I was in Birmingham. The temple in Birmingham has been closed down. So here . . . (indistinct) . . . going with the sankīrtan party . . . (indistinct) . . . to Birmingham and Cardiff . . . (indistinct) . . . temples . . .) Prabhupāda: Ekhon ekhanei acho? (Are you staying here right now?) Man: Ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Śyāmasundara: She was very happy, Sumati Morarji. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: She went away very happy. Prabhupāda: Everyone will be happy when you are Kṛṣṇa devotee. You see? She's seeing Kṛṣṇa's so many devotees. That is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. Devotee (2): She said she wanted to see the Deities before leaving. Prabhupāda: And she saw? Revatīnandana: Two months ago she came here for most of the āratik āratrika ceremony. The devotees came out to say goodbye to her, and she said, "Go back and do āratrika ." Prabhupāda: She can influence the whole Bombay, she's so . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, she knows everyone. Dhanañjaya: We need a president like her for the board of trustees for London also. Has she had any assistance? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She is doing her best. She is nice. Śyāmasundara: When is Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . going to come? Dhanañjaya: He's going to drive Prabhupāda to Kensington tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow? Dhanañjaya: Or Friday. Śyāmasundara: He can't come before? He should come . . . Revatīnandana: He comes almost every night, actually. Śyāmasundara: Next time he comes, have him come . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And the Joshi is the manager here? Śyāmasundara: That's her manager here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, then he's the one who should know everything. She said she would carry everything for us practically around the world . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . on her boats. We have many mṛdaṅgas , everything in India sent. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Calcutta. From Calcutta, their ship starts for all over the world. So simply . . . but Calcutta manager is rascal. Calcutta manager, that is difficult. Śyāmasundara: Why not we send . . . why don't we send a hundred or two hundred mṛdaṅgas to America and Europe, big shipments, sometime? We could really use them down through the years. Prabhupāda: But I know that Calcutta manager, he is a . . . haramzyada . . . (rascal . . .) (laughs) Revatīnandana: They won't become . . . they have many . . . all the big men in the Calcutta House, they won't become Life Members. None of them. I approached them. None of them will become Life Members. Prabhupāda: Calcutta House? Revatīnandana: That Calcutta Scindia office. There's several big men. The one I remember is Mr. Trivedi. I don't know if he's the head man. Prabhupāda: Trivedi. Revatīnandana: Yeah. I talked to him, but he will not become a Life Member. He wouldn't even give that much rupees. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They are not very highly paid. Within thousand. In Japan also. High salary is in your country. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Unexpected fabulous. (chuckles) Just like that boy who came to see me yesterday. He's Engineer. Śyāmasundara: Gopal. Prabhupāda: He's getting $900. That means our ten thousand rupees. Gopal is also not getting. I asked Gopal to continue his service and give $400 per month. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Each month. That's good. Very good. Prabhupāda: So here we shall give you books, cost price only, and you sell books by profit only and spend for building. Dhanañjaya: Traveling Saṅkīrtana Party is very strong here. There's some very nice boys here . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: They go out and they simply distribute, and just like I think in San Francisco, Keśava's . . . he began it here. They just go out with literature and simply to distribute literature, you know, in that way. Prabhupāda: So Keśava is feeling not well there, he can come here. Śyāmasundara: He wanted to. He wanted to bring his party here. Prabhupāda: Do that. Let him do that. Write him. Revatīnandana: But actually he may improve it even more. They are already a good group. They are doing all right. Prabhupāda: Very expert. Not only good, very expert. Dhanañjaya: They're averaging sixty, seventy pounds a day. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Sixty, seventy pounds a day they're collecting. Prabhupāda: You are not collecting so much? Dhanañjaya: What's that? Prabhupāda: You are not collecting so much? Dhanañjaya: Here in the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Well, we are collecting, on Oxford Street, we're collecting about forty, fifty pounds a day, and on traveling saṅkīrtana , sixty, seventy pounds, because they're doing it for more hours. So altogether we're over a hundred pounds a day. Prabhupāda: Now your GBC here. He has come. Now he make it hundred pounds daily. How to do it, he knows. Dhanañjaya: But, but already there is one hundred pounds daily coming. Two hundred pounds, then. Prabhupāda: And his best friend is George. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: I'm going to see him tomorrow. Is he in town? Prabhupāda: He can alone make . . . purchase a good temple. George alone can purchase. Śyāmasundara: He says George is in New York. Devotee: . . . (indistinct conversation) Śyāmasundara: When is he back? Devotee: About a week . . . (indistinct) Dhanañjaya: Oh, he may be with Mr. Ravi Patel. I think we saw him at the airport. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He's a printer, and he came in the van with you from the airport. He's a very nice man. He's doing a lot of printing for us. He says he has so many thousands of rupees in Bombay and in Madras from his printing. And he also wants to offer his services. I think he will come tomorrow to see you. Prabhupāda: Let him print our books, in Bombay. Dhanañjaya: He said he wanted to offer his services here for this temple somehow or other by getting money from advertising purposes. He's the director of some company that's just been started. It's called Golden Products. They make all kinds of consumer goods, shampoos and soap powders, so many things like that, for household use. And he wanted to use his symbol, Golden Products, with this Society. This is his idea. Prabhupāda: Golden powder? Dhanañjaya: Golden Products. Prabhupāda: In our Society? No. Dhanañjaya: I told him. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Devotee: Who is he? Dhanañjaya: He went to the airport today. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a boy. Dhanañjaya: His other idea was . . . he said he was working for Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba. He said in India he had raised so many thousands of lakhs of rupees by making posters. They are impersonal posters, so much nonsense on them, but they sold like lottery tickets. In this way he printed them and made so much money. Prabhupāda: I mean, he cannot suggest. We cannot accept anyone's suggestion. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. Devotee: That's proven to be too . . . too horrible. Devotee (2): Yes, to always. Śyāmasundara: I saw Mr. . . . who was that? What's that man's name who made our first record in New York? Devotee: Kallman. Śyāmasundara: Ah, I saw Mr. Kallman at the airport when you arrived in New York at that meeting, press meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Śyāmasundara: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, why did he not see me? Śyāmasundara: He didn't come. He was a little embarrassed, I think. Prabhupāda: He must be embarrassed. He's a thief. (laughter) Dishonest man never becomes happy. He did not pay me anything as royalty for the record. Devotee: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: He's still selling it, too. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He's still selling that record. Still making money Prabhupāda: Yes. Must be selling, and taking advantage of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Haṁsadūta: That's a nice record. Devotee (3): Is that Govinda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: That's a very nice record. Everyone is appreciating. Prabhupāda: But I heard that rascal always play my record and hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: At least he's benefiting somehow. I saw him in Bombay also, one day in the market of Madhubhag, Madhubhag temple? He was buying beads for his store in New York. Prabhupāda: He's selling beads, record, on our account. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: He was being cheated himself, in Bombay. He was being cheated like anything. He was paying one rupee for one strand of beads, those poor quality beads. (pause) Do you have a car? Prabhupāda: Now you can arrange for the car? Devotee: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi is going to be working on it, too, to raise funds. *Prabhupāda: So, at least two first*-class car must go to India. Śyāmasundara: Cadillac? Prabhupāda: Any. They must recognize, "Here the American guru is going." (laughter) Devotee: Have to get Cadillac. Prabhupāda: (laughter) If the American guru has no car, he's walking on the street, that is disgrace for you. Is it not? (laughs) And they criticize, "Oh, what kind of guru you are, you are walking on the street? You are American guru ?" Śyāmasundara: I was thinking if each devotee in the United States went out . . . Prabhupāda: You write on the car, "The Spiritual Master of USA." (laughter) And people will see, "Oh, here is the spiritual . . ." (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Should we do that? "Spiritual Master of USA"? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is . . .? Why not? (laughter) Śyāmasundara: It's a fact. If each of your devotees collected five dollars one day, that's $5,000. More. More than $5,000. Prabhupāda: That you . . . and soon as you issue letter, that will come. It is not very difficult. And she will carry. Make arrangement with the government so next time when I go to India, I sit on the car. That's all. Devotee: And Gurudasa . . . actually, we'd better do it soon, because it takes two or three months. Prabhupāda: Yes, so you can do. Devotee: We can talk about the details later. Prabhupāda: That I am immigrant here, I've stayed since 1965. The embassy, everyone, knows. So I can take my cars, that there is a law. So in this way take permission from the government, and you get the car, and I go and drive it. That's all. Devotee: You'll take this car with you, Prabhupāda, wherever you go? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: You will take this car with you wherever you go? Prabhupāda: As far as possible. People will see, "The spiritual master of USA is going there." Śyāmasundara: Supposing you want to go to Bombay. You can fly to Bombay and someone can drive the car there. And then when you're in Bombay, you can drive it in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, you can go from Calcutta to Agra, nice road. And from Agra to Bombay. Śyāmasundara: How many days? Two days? Prabhupāda: No, no. One day, two days. Yes. Even if it runs fifty mile per hour, so from morning, early morning to noon, say six hours if we run, it's three hundred miles in the morning and three hundred miles in the evening, and stay at night. And then the next day three hundred miles, three hundred . . . six hundred miles. Twelve hundred miles means anywhere you go from Calcutta to Bombay, Calcutta to Madras, Calcutta to Delhi, within twelve hundred miles. Within two days from anywhere to anywhere you can go. India's length and breadth is not so wide as in your country. You have got . . . that is also not good road, in your . . . but in Calcutta, to Calcutta–Bombay, Madras, Delhi, there are good roads. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Good roads. So we can go by road. Devotee: So begin campaigning right away, collecting funds for the vehicle. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (to Śyāmasundara) And you are a good driver. (laughter) Eighty miles. You once went eighty miles, his father's car. His father gave a very nice car for my riding. His father, mother, sister met me in Portland. Very nice gentleman, mother nice, sister very beautiful. Śyāmasundara: But silent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I have written to her some letters, but silence. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They are not very happy that you are in this movement; not in the family, naturally. They think, "Our lost child." (laughter) They cannot appreciate that, "My child is lost for better purpose." That is the case. Revatīnandana: Actually, I wanted to ask you about something like that. When I took sannyāsa in Calcutta, some time afterward, I used to correspond with my parents. So I sent them a letter explaining what was sannyāsa , I had taken sannyāsa , and that I didn't want to hear so much more about nieces, nephews, things like that that I have in that family. I said: "If you want to talk, now we should talk about Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So I didn't hear anything from them for about six months. But just the other day I received a letter . . . Prabhupāda: Then don't. Now you have taken sannyāsa , you don't. Revatīnandana: I shouldn't do it at all. Prabhupāda: No. Revatīnandana: But she's quite intelligent. She's asking . . . Prabhupāda: Your mother? Revatīnandana: Yeah . . . all about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. She has the *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Your mother, your mother must be intelligent because you are intelligent. Your mother must be intelligent. Without mother being intelligent, no intelligent son comes out. A son inherits the quality of mother, and the daughter inherits the quality of father. This is natural. Revatīnandana: So the letter is so . . . she's told me, she says: "Two reasons I want to hear from you: one, I want to know how you are," that's the body. She says also, "I'm interested in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement," because she's noticed that the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: That is mother's anxiety. You see all this? Revatīnandana: So I should not respond? Prabhupāda: Hmm, you can send news: "Mother, I'm all right." That's all. Revatīnandana: That's all right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't worry. No. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was sending news to His mother. Revatīnandana: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Although He never went to mother. Revatīnandana: It's hard for the family, because my mother's brother is Viṣṇujana Mahārāja's father, right? So they also figure they have lost one son. They don't hear from him at all, and now she doesn't hear from me at all. So the whole family is very miserable. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hmm. But they have lost for the better. Revatīnandana: Yes, but they don't understand that. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Lost not in vain. They will be benefited. They will be benefited. You are giving the best service to the family. What about your mother, Himavatī? Himavatī: I never hear from her anymore. Prabhupāda: Huh? Himavatī: I never hear from her anymore. Prabhupāda: She's also not very happy? Himavatī: No. I don't think she's very happy with me. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyway, you serve Kṛṣṇa and then your mother will be best served. Kṛṣṇa will favor all the family members of a devotee. You have seen from Prahlāda Maharaja's statement. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that anyone coming to become His devotee, He takes care of the family of the devotee—spiritually, for their emancipation. *That is natural. Just like government. If somebody dies in the war field, the government takes care of the whole family. Similarly, if the government has so much sense, do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is nonsense? He also takes care of the family of the devotee. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22). Where is Nanda-kumāra, Pradyumna? *Śyāmasundara: Pradyumna's been studying all day. Ah . . . Nanda*-kumāra may be . . . is he there in the room? Prabhupāda: No, I don't want. Maybe sleeping? Devotee: He is tired. Prabhupāda: Not very tired. What was it? Devotee: Pradyumna didn't take rest last night, I don't think. *Prabhupāda: Pradyumna . . . Nanda*-kumāra was sleeping. Śyāmasundara: Charlie Chaplin kept us up all night. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Charlie Chaplin kept us up all night. (laughs) Charlie Chaplin film. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was nice. (laughter) He is really funny man. (laughs) He has got originality. All his comic play has got some originality. That is the beauty. How he invented! (laughs) I think that character, when he was a drunkard, he's a great friend. (laughs) When he's not drunkard, "Who is this man?" (laughs) He's grave, as rich man. *And as drunkard, "You'll pay him. You are my friend, life*-long friend. Whatever you want, you take." (laughs) So these characters he's painting, it's very good intelligence. And he made him friend when he was going to commit suicide. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he stopped him. Prabhupāda: He stopped him. Accidentally he stopped. (laughs) Not willingly. Śyāmasundara: Yes. He tried to pull him up from the water, and he went in himself. (laughing) Prabhupāda: It is very nice, funny man, with intelligence. And before him there was another, Mr. Max Linder. Śyāmasundara: Max Linder. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was also very funny Englishman. In our childhood we used to enjoy their play, Max Linder and Chaplin, ah, Charlie Chaplin. Haṁsadūta: They were showing them in India? Prabhupāda: Uh? Yes. Max Linder, I remember, he was sitting in a park. (laughter) You know? Revatīnandana: No. I don't know anything about it. Prabhupāda: He was sitting in a park, so that English dress, that tail coat? What is called? Śyāmasundara: Coattails, yeah. Prabhupāda: So the tail was hanging, so some naughty boy, they fixed up nails, you see? So when he got up, the whole tail gone, you see? But he could not understand. He went to the ball dance. So he was dancing, so everyone's seeing to his tail, in this way. So he thought, "What is the matter?" He went to the mirror and he saw, "Oh, my tail is lost." (laughs) *Then he came again in the ball dance and he was pushing everyone, just to show. And everyone asking, "What is this? What is this?" "Oh, you do not know? This is latest fashion. This is latest fashion." Then all of them cut the tails. I think he had taken the idea, laṅguli*-hīna śṛgala (Hitopadeśa). This is Sanskrit story, that laṅguli-hīna śṛgala , or monkey, he lost his tail, and he began to advertise, "This is the latest fashion." *So that ball*-dancing without tail, that was, I remember, it is very laughing. They say that Charlie Chaplin is the student of Max Linder. He learned this funny play from Max Linder. So I knew Charlie Chaplin is a Englishman. Haṁsadūta: Yes, he is. Prabhupāda: He is Englishman. Haṁsadūta: He went to America and then he made all these films. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He went to America and he made a lot of money there. Indian man: As far as I know, Prabhupāda, he was Jew, but he used to live in east of London, or south of London. There is an autobiography about it. Prabhupāda: Max Linder, ah, Charlie Chaplin? Yes. He was a London man. Śyāmasundara: But that movie was filmed in Los Angeles, the one we saw last night. In Hollywood. All the palm trees and the mountains behind. Indian man: One of his elder sons, he's still living in Hampstead Heath. He has got the house in Hampstead Heath. Prabhupāda: Oh, his eldest son. And where he is, Charlie Chaplin? Devotee: In America. Prabhupāda: In America? Devotee: He's lives in Switzerland. Indian man: No, no, he lives in the Europe somewhere. Switzerland, most . . . sometimes coming in Hampstead Heath. Devotee: Geneva. I think Geneva. Prabhupāda: He has got big family? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: You said that he's producing still child? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, he produced last year, or two years ago. Indian man: He married again. Haṁsadūta: It was in Life magazine. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) Haṁsadūta: It's already about 10:30. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees leave) Prabhupāda: So ask Pradyumna if he wants to give. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . viṣaya chāḍiyā . Oh, yes, then it is . . . (indistinct) . . . viṣaya chāḍiyā , se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari , parama karuṇa , pahū dui jana (Gaura*-Nityānander Dayā 2). But even if we do speculation business and do it for Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. Śyāmasundara: Not so high a class. Prabhupāda: We are doing little business because gṛhasthas , they require money. All right, do some incense, this, that. That's all. Not very big business. If one is expert like Arjuna or Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, that is different thing. Just like this Advaita, he was given in Press. Now he sees that, "I can work anywhere else, I can get money. Why should I waste my time?" He neglected. That means viṣaya attracted him. He thought, "I am qualified man. Why should I waste my time with this Press?" Therefore he gone to hell. He sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and now he's getting some money he's satisfied. He's thinking that he has become a big man. Śyāmasundara: Ātreya Ṛṣi went to see them in New York the last day, but they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: Both . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: They are getting money from other karmīs , so why they should come? They are thinking that "As family man we must make money." Ato gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair , huh? House, land, children, friends, money for increasing their illusion. Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Then entanglement. Finish. *He does not know that he is being finished, and he's thinking that, "I am making profit." Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jāta. This rascal, he's being defeated. He does not know. He got the chance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And he is attracted by little pounds, dollar. (pause) But his wife is good, Balai Dāsī. She is coming. Śyāmasundara: Yes, she came to maṅgala-ārati. Prabhupāda: She comes, and she said: "Then we live separately," Advaita. He (she) doesn't like. He's such a rascal. Such a nice, good, beautiful wife, and he's neglecting. Milk, here they take cold milk, and they. No. Milk should be hot, and it should be taken little, little. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is the way of taking milk. And this masalā , it has made taste good. In India, especially in Northern India, Punjab, they will take at night milk, invariably. No other things. They, all businessmen, the Marwari Gujaratis, they'll take food before evening, and then again they work. *Then after ten they will come home and take little milk and go. (pause) So fund*-raising committee maybe established in Bombay, making her the president of the Trust. Then Giriraja will have no difficulty. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They will contribute. And if she canvasses, she can collect lakhs . Śyāmasundara: But one thing is, if Giriraja takes advantage and begins preaching in her school daily . . . she's invited him, open invitation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it will be pleased. Śyāmasundara: Then when she'll see her students improve, and she'll give us all the help. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got land, many people will contribute materials. Materials . . . if we get materials from many big, big merchants . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, like, ah, Tarachand. Prabhupāda: Cement, iron, they will . . . "All right. Give it." Goods, anyone will give. Śyāmasundara: Tarachand Gupta, I think his name is. Prabhupāda: He is also our Life Member. He is nice. Śyāmasundara: Iron merchant. Prabhupāda: He wanted to invite me one day. He met me on the path. Do you remember? Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: He's one of the richest men. Śyāmasundara: Yes. I think when you go back there the next year, or next autumn . . . Prabhupāda: Now we have created some impression that we are doing something nice. Even Keating is also impressed. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. We're not wandering from village to village anymore. We're settled. Prabhupāda: No. Even we wander from village to village, people are being impressed that we are doing something good. Actually it is so. I tell you it is so. One who cannot understand it, he is a fool. Actually we are doing the best work, God consciousness. And actually it is a fact: simply for want of God consciousness they are suffering. That's all. There is no other reason. The only reason is this. Just like this morning I said that, "God is the proprietor. Why you are claiming proprietor? You may be manager, not proprietor." Actually, that is our position. Just like I am head of this institution, but I am not dealing as proprietor. I am dealing as manager, head. Is it not? Śyāmasundara: This is the only society where Kṛṣṇa is the owner of everything. Prabhupāda: And all my assistants, they are also working in that capacity. If I would have been proprietor, then they would not have been interested. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I would have collected the money and used for my sense gratification. Then nobody would help me. Śyāmasundara: I think the English milk is better than American milk, isn't it? Prabhupāda: I think so. This is from Holland. Śyāmasundara: Oh. There's some famous islands between England and Holland called the Jersey Islands. There's special milk comes from Jersey. Jersey milk, the best. Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision—their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why . . . they ask, "What is your specialness?" and "Just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are . . ." (aside) Oh, there is no water. "You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. So if you take, others will take." That is my aim. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter) That is, they are afraid. Because the Britishers, they kept Indian culture suppressed so long because . . . (break) . . . amongst the Kṣatriya , kings, in special cases. Not for public. Among the Kṣatriyas . And among the Vaiśyas , one day in a year, on Diwali to try one's luck. One day they will bet. Not amongst the Brāhmins or the Śūdras . Śūdras have no money to gamble, and Brāhmins prohibited. The Kṣatriyas , they are also allowed in special cases, and Vaiśyas were allowed to engage in gambling one day in a year. That means restricted. Śyāmasundara: Boy, that system of dharma . . . we can start discussing it tomorrow in our philosophy class. It's just so perfect. Everything is . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whole plan is perfect. Śyāmasundara: But the British systematically broke it down. Prabhupāda: Because Lord Macaulay gave them in this study, they said that if you keep the Indians in their original culture, then they cannot be broken. Gandhi took that state: noncooperation. Don't cooperate with them. And then kill them. Śyāmasundara: This man who wrote this book made an interesting comment. He said that after . . . or before the First World War, when the British were entering the First World War, they got the . . . they made a promise to the Indians that, "If you help us fight this war, then we will give you freedom afterwards." Prabhupāda: They did not. Śyāmasundara: They helped, but they didn't give them freedom. So Gandhi or the others, they took that Azad . "They have broken their promise, so now we can break our cooperation, noncooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. They actually expanded their empire they only won the two war by Indian cooperation. Therefore these big men like Attlee, when they thought that, "India is going out of our hand," so don't dream of our empire. Forget it. They voluntarily quit it. Śyāmasundara: The whole thing. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now they are not, those Englishmen, as they were in Victoria days all. Nobody cares for you. Śyāmasundara: You'll see the last remnants at that Commonwealth Club, I think, engagement. No more, no one cares. Prabhupāda: Commonwealth is in name. (pause) Śyāmasundara: Still, there is something about London. Everyone likes to come here. There's so many . . . there's not enough hotel rooms even. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: There's not even enough hotel rooms to accommodate so many tourists who come here to London. Prabhupāda: London is still famous. People outside, they have got very high idea about London. Śyāmasundara: Civilized. Very civilized city. Prabhupāda: Why civilized? Do you think it is especially civilized? Śyāmasundara: Well, a lot more than America, anyway. By comparison it seems civilized, in the sense there is not so much violence. There's not . . . people are honest, upright, moral, a little more. Prabhupāda: In America general life is becoming wretched. Śyāmasundara: Wretched. Police don't even carry guns here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: Policemen don't even carry guns in Britain, but in America every policeman's got at least one gun. Prabhupāda: The Englishmen . . . I've studied Englishmen. They consider America is still (un)civilized. They say like that. They, in making up. Śyāmasundara: Still uncivilized, yeah. *Prabhupāda: But here also hippy*-ism growing. Śyāmasundara: They've lost that old aristocracy civilization. Losing it fast. (pause) *Prabhupāda: So write Girirāja immediately a letter, that she has agreed to become the president of the Trust. You make a Trust body for fund*-raising, and our best Life Members, and Sumati Morarji, and make her the president of the Trust. You remain the secretary, and other also, as treasurer also. One or two of her own men. Śyāmasundara: Just a small number. Not a big Trust. Prabhupāda: Hmm. In this way you raise fund. Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, he should start utilizing her invitation to teach in the school sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, and she'll cooperate. And write letter for permission for carrying our motorcar and incense. Śyāmasundara: Yes, and inform Gurudāsa . . . Prabhupāda: She has already agreed that, ah, what is called? Punks? The punks sent to Calcutta, and from there they carry to Los Angeles. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. I'm wondering why they can't take them directly. Prabhupāda: Directly not very many ships come to Hong Kong. Śyāmasundara: Oh, from Hong Kong that way, that direction, they don't come. They come on their way back. I see. Yeah, they take Chinese goods from Hong Kong to India. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They take Chinese goods from Hong Kong to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: There's not many from Hong Kong to America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore she said send to the . . . India. Take information. Śyāmasundara: Transfer to another boat. That will save them a thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's a thousand dollar contribution. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. And as it grows, it will increase. Prabhupāda: And send them a Gujarati papers, our magazine, distribution amongst their workers. Very satisfying, they will be satisfy. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Tell that to Girirāja? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Hundred, two hundred magazines. Prabhupāda: Not hundred. Say fifty, for distribution amongst his officers. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: So that everyone will be satisfied. Śyāmasundara: I think Kṣīrodakśāyī has the information on that car business. Because he once inquired and got papers. He may have them here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So make arrangement, at least two cars, nice cars. Śyāmasundara: One car, one van? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: One car and one van? Prabhupāda: Van? What is the use of van? Śyāmasundara: Well, they can carry many people, that's the thing, like a saṅkīrtana party. Prabhupāda: Saṅkīrtana may be six men. They can go in car. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: And better for carrying our luggage, add in the car some small . . . Śyāmasundara: Trailer. Prabhupāda: . . . trailer, yes, two . . . two wheel. Oh, it will go. Devotee: The advantage of the van is that they can sleep in it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The advantage of a van is that it can be used for sleeping purposes also. Prabhupāda: Sleeping purpose in India, tropical country, if you carry camp, if you want to sleep somewhere you just immediately set up a camp and pass night very comfortably. And you go on the field passing stool. Just catch up some watery place. (laughter) Then you can cook, you can take bath, you can wash your dishes, then put up on the trailer and go on. Śyāmasundara: Mostly we'll be going to big . . . Prabhupāda: Or if you can send one van also, two cars and one van. Śyāmasundara: Mostly we'll be going to bigger cities anyway. The roads between big cities are all right. But if we go places . . . Prabhupāda: Work sincerely and everything will be supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Now take . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 2, 1972, London (Conversation and interview with Ian Polsen) Prabhupāda: . . . and if we repeat that, what is our fault? (laughter) Kyu ji? (What did you say?) Caturbhuja. Isme humara dosh kya hai? (What is our fault with this?) We say Kṛṣṇa said that, "He is a rascal who does not surrender unto Me." (laughs) Kṛṣṇa has chastised in so many places. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . . . (indistinct) . . . ( BG 16.19). "Those who are envious, like that, I put them in the darkest region of hellish condition." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says like that. Another place He says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): "A person who is rascal, he considers Me as ordinary human being." (break) Ian Polsen: . . . to surrender. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Ian Polsen: And you said that prostrate . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughs) Very nice. Ian Polsen: And I have come to ask Your Grace because I cannot make spiritual progress without the grace of the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You will make progress. Your attitude is very nice. This is the asset. Hmm. Ian Polsen: My next question is . . . Prabhupāda: Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: The . . . (aside) You are feeling uncomfortable? (aside) You can give him some seat. He is not accustomed. Ian Polsen: No, thank you. I can sit here. Prabhupāda: (laughs) The . . . our present conditional life is rebellious. We have rebelled against the authority of Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord. It is very simple thing. Just like a person, a citizen, if he becomes rebellious, then he is arrested and put into custody, and his life becomes conditioned; he has no freedom. Similarly, as soon as we are rebellious to the authority of the Supreme Lord, we are captured by māyā —that is also an energy of Kṛṣṇa—and we become conditioned. So this is our position. So in this conditional life we can never be happy. That's a fact. So we have to transcend this conditional life and again become engaged in our constitutional position. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now our consciousness is polluted. We are thinking different way. Just like a madman thinks that . . . sometimes he says: "I am the king." He stands sometimes in the midst of the road: "Stop. I order you!" Does it not? Madman. (laughs) Nobody cares for him, but he says . . . thinks like that. Similarly, under the spell of this illusory energy, we are thinking differently. Somebody, I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking "Englishman," he is thinking "American." I am thinking, "I am proprietor of this"; I am thinking, "I am the master of this." So many ways. These things are all madman's proposition, that's all. So this madness can go when we actually surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then we can understand things as they are. So we are training our students in that way. If anyone is serious, then he can make his life successful, even during this span of life. So I'm very glad that you have got this attitude. So it is very simple thing. Hmm? There is a Bengali verse: *Just like a person ghostly*-haunted, he speaks so many nonsense, up to somebody's declaring, "I am God." First of all, "I am this; I am that. I am this; I am that. I want to become this. I want to become this." And when he is frustrated with everything, then he says, "I am God." That is also another illusion. How you can become God? So, insanity. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means sanity. That's all. So to come to that position of sanity, Lord Caitanya has given us very simple method: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If anyone sincerely chants without any offense, then his life is successful. So what is your name? Ian Polsen: Ian Polsen. Prabhupāda: Polsen. Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside) So you . . . you can talk with Mr. Polsen and give him instruction. Ian Polsen: Thank you, Your Grace. Before I go, Your Grace, I am employed in government service. Is it your wish that I resign? Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say like that. The thing is that you serve Kṛṣṇa. Our predecessors, the ācāryas , they are also government servant, but they resigned when they decided to preach this cult. If you have desire to preach this cult, then that is different. Otherwise, as a gentleman you can remain in your position, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and follow the rules and regulation. That we recommend. Ian Polsen: Your Grace, how many times do you recommend that I chant on my beads? How many rounds? Prabhupāda: We recommend minimum sixteen rounds. Ian Polsen: Minimum sixteen rounds, every day. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, you can chant twenty*-four hours. Minimum sixteen rounds. Ian Polsen: Is it true that if I follow the regulative principles, the four, that I will be able to chant without offense? Prabhupāda: Yes. But, ah . . . you are married? No. Ian Polsen: No. Prabhupāda: No family man? No. So best thing would have been to live with us and work, give contribution as much as possible for running on this missionary work. But the thing is, we have no place to . . . Śyāmasundara: We haven't got a very nice place. Prabhupāda: Otherwise I would have asked you to live with us and work. Śyāmasundara: We're trying to get a nice place, with bigger facilities. Now they're sleeping in the hallways practically. Prabhupāda: You have got your own apartment? Ian Polsen: I've just transferred down from Edinburgh on Friday for the first time. So I have not found a place yet. I'm staying in a hotel for the time being. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he used to be a shepherd in France. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Kulaśekhara: He used to be a shepherd three years ago. He lived as a shepherd for some years. And, ah, he was with a Muslim man who was telling him about sac*-cid-ānanda , explaining to him about the philosophy of sac-cid and ānanda , about the soul and the spirit. So, in explained—that's when I first met him—he said: "I may appear to you that I'm a businessman, but also I've been living as a shepherd." Prabhupāda: So you can read our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . You have got? Ian Polsen: Yes, I have got Caitanya's teachings. I have . . . Prabhupāda: *Nectar of Devotion* . . . Ian Polsen: I have *Nectar of Devotion*. *Prabhupāda: . . . Teachings of Lord Caitanya , Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. *Ian Polsen: I have Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: In this way, study seriously these books. Ian Polsen: May I speak, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: There is a magazine called Studies in Comparative Religion which is published in this country, which I feel . . . Prabhupāda: That will not help you. Ian Polsen: No, but the reason why I mention it is that I think it is a magazine that Your Grace might contribute to, to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because it's based on three principles: principles of a traditional religion, the principles of spiritual guidance from a spiritual master, and the invocation of the name of God. There is great similarity there, and I think that the few people who read that magazine could be reached through the magazine. Prabhupāda: What is the name? Ian Polsen: It is called Studies in Comparative Religion . And I could leave the . . . I have no interest in this magazine except that I subscribe to it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Comparative religion, from our point of view, that there cannot be many religion. Cannot be many religion. Religion means . . . we define religion as the law given by God. So we understand from Bhagavad*-gītā that God says, Kṛṣṇa says, that man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your obeisances unto Me." So any religion who has no conception of God, how he can think of God? If I think of something, that something must be known to me; *otherwise how can I think of it? If I imagine something, that is not God. My imagination of God is . . . God is not a thing to be imagined by me. He is a concrete thing. Therefore according to our philosophy, any so*-called religion which has no conception of God, that is not religion; that is simply mental speculation. We accept religion means the law given by God. But if you do not know what is God, what is His law, then where is religion? *Therefore in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said that all types of pseudo religion is rejected. You can ask any religious man, "What is your conception of God?" he cannot give any clear conception. So far we are concerned, we can immediately give conception of God—His name, His address, everything. That is the difference. Therefore strictly speaking, we do not accept any system of religion as bona fide. They are all rejected. That is not religion. They do not know what is God. What is that religion? Strictly speaking, that is not religion. But if we speak publicly, they will be angry. So this comparative study of religion, we don't believe in it, because there is no religion. Where is the scope of comparative study? Śyāmasundara: Nothing can compare. Prabhupāda: There is no religion. Strictly speaking, simply some dogmas, maybe some moral principle. That is another thing. But moral principle we have to transcend. We don't say that don't follow moral principle. But even they do not follow the moral principles. Then what is the . . . where is the religion? Just like Christian religion, it is said that, "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. So nobody's . . . factually, religion means conception of God and the words of God, following the words. Just like good citizen means he knows what is the government and what is the law of government. He is following. Similarly, religious person means he must know what is God and what is the words . . . what are the words of God. So our principle is that we follow the words of God. God says . . . God says that, "Always think of Me." So who can object to this, if he's seriously about religion? Why one should not think of God always? God says that, "You think of Me." But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of? We have got God, Kṛṣṇa, here. We can think of His form. *We are busy in His service. We are not only thinking, we are trying to become His devotee. We are serving, trying to serve Him—rising early in the morning, offering maṅgala-āratrika , then prayers, then reading His message, trying to apply in our life as far as possible. We are not perfect, but we are trying to follow the instruction of God. This is our life. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakta mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. So you have studied that magazine. Can you give me any idea, what do you think about religion? What is religion? *Ian Polsen: Religion to me means more now that I have come in contact with Kṛṣṇa consciousness than it did before. It means self*-realization. It means realization of my relationship with the Supreme. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ian Polsen: It is to understand that, and to realize it to the limit of my intelligence. Prabhupāda: Say . . . so first of all you have to realize what you are, then you can understand what is your relationship with God. And according to that relationship with God, when you act, that is religion. That is religion. Ian Polsen: And one needs guidance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. First of all we have to know ourselves. To know ourselves means self*-realization: "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." Then what is this spirit soul? Naturally, part and parcel of God. Therefore as spirit soul my duty is to serve God. That is religion, plain thing. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It is serving me. That is healthy condition. If there is any pain—"Oh, this finger I cannot scratch. I'm feeling pain"—that is irreligion. So long the part and parcel of my body, the finger, cannot serve me, it is not normal condition. So every living being is part and parcel of God. So long he's unable to serve God, that is his material condition. But as soon as he's engaged actually in the service of God, that is his real, liberated position. Same example: If the finger is diseased, it cannot serve. But when it is serving . . . (indistinct) . . . that is his healthy condition. Similarly, we living entities, we are part and parcel of God. When we are not engaged in the service of the Lord, or God . . . everyone is engaged to some service. Somebody's serving his family, somebody's serving himself, somebody's serving his government, somebody's serving so many things. And somebody's serving even cats and dogs. So these are all mad condition. So when he turns to God . . . service he must give. Nobody can say: "I'm not serving anybody." That is not possible. You must be serving somebody. Just like you are serving government, he is serving some office, because service is our nature. So we are not happy, because the service is misplaced. When the service is rightly placed, then it is our normal condition. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that: "You surrender unto Me." That is real liberated condition. So our mission is serving God. In this way, that people are suffering on account of their godless life. Just see. So we are making propaganda that, "Serve God, then you will be happy." We know why he's suffering. The same example: The finger in diseased condition cannot serve me. It has to be treated when there is some pain. Suppose this, the nail, so I apply some medicine, cure it so that it can serve. So the whole world is suffering because he's not fit to serve God. So if he becomes fit to serve God, then all the suffering will be gone. The same example again: When the finger is fit to serve, that means it has no disease. And so long it is diseased, there is pain, it cannot serve. Śyāmasundara: It suffers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: And it suffers. Prabhupāda: It is suffering. When it is not serving, therefore it is suffering, and when it is serving, there is no suffering. Two things. There cannot be three thing. This is very scientific. It is not imagination. The finger is not serving me means it is diseased. It is suffering. So they're not accepting this process. We say that you are suffering because you're not serving God. You serve God, your sufferings will be gone. Do you think our philosophy is all right, or not? Ian Polsen: I accept it completely. Yes. Śyāmasundara: I think he has been also well educated. He understands the truth. Kulaśekhara: Did you go to ārati ? Ian Polsen: No. Prabhupāda: Hmm. As soon as you are engaged in the service of the Lord, we are in healthy condition—there is no suffering. Just like these boys, they did not know Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, two years or three years ago. But since they have been engaged in the service of, they are feeling very nice, healthy. Everyone is asking me, "Why so many young men are attracted by this movement?" (laughs) They think it is movement. No. They have taken the real occupation—serving Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are receptive. When one is normally situated, naturally he feels happy and he's healthy. When in the diseased condition, he cannot be happy. When the disease is gone, in healthy condition, naturally you'll be happy. Indian man: Prabhupāda, is it to say it is a way of life or an aim of life? Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man: Way of life or aim of life? Prabhupāda: The aim is that you must get free from your diseased condition. That should be the aim. It is not the way of life. You must get free yourself from the diseased condition. That is not a way of life, that is a must. If you want to be free from diseased condition, you must treat yourself properly. The treating is . . . Treatment is you surrender unto God and take to His service. This is simple. You are suffering, that's a fact. Everyone knows. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody can say: "No, I am not suffering." Is there anybody? The body is meant for suffering, this material body. But because they do not approach the real physician, they think that they have got a material body, and that material body means there are senses, the sense gratification will give him satisfaction. Therefore he's simply after sense gratification, that's all. That is not treatment. That is still more complication. Śyāmasundara: Aggravates the disease. Prabhupāda: That's all. People after sense gratification. A diseased man who cannot digest, if he thinks that, "I shall eat this, I shall eat that, I shall eat that," but actually he cannot digest. Eating this or that, how it will help him? (laughs) If you have lost your digesting powers, then if you change, "I shall eat this, I shall eat that," that will not help you. So the modern civilized man, he has lost the point how he can be happy. He is simply changing the program of sense gratification. That's all. Ian Polsen: Becoming more and more desperate. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break) We have no objection. We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that's all. That is our mission. You are forget . . . (break) You understand little Bengali? Guest: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: *After forgetting Kṛṣṇa, one wants to lord it over the material nature, but he becomes . . . (break) Especially in the Western world—everywhere—attracting sex life. Mini*-skirt, so that the other party may be attracted. So many means and ways, they want to avoid the after-result of sex life, contraceptive. *The center is sex life. They are giving up everything, the hippies, but sex is there. That they cannot give up. You see? So*-called giving up, but they cannot give the real central point. *So this is māyā . He's captured by this one idea, mithuna. Mithuna. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Everyone is attracted by this sex life. We are trying to use this sex life in different way. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇa-bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They're becoming diseased in so many ways. Sex life, indulgence of sex life, means you will become diseased, so many disease. That is a medical fact. So this movement is very scientific movement, authorized. Anyone who will take to it seriously surely will be cured of this material disease and be happy. Ian Polsen: Your Grace, you said I needn't give up my job, but may I look forward to the time when I may give up my job? Prabhupāda: You come morning, evening; you come. As far as possible associate with us and try to give some service. Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: Suppose you are getting some money. We have no money. If you try to serve, that will . . . sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). This line is service. The more you render service, the more you become enlightened. If you simply philosophize, theorize, you'll get no benefit. You must render service. Ian Polsen: May I join the kīrtana in the streets over the weekend? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, whenever you get opportunity, kīrtana . Yes. Very nice. Ian Polsen: Dressed as I am? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ian Polsen: Dressed as I am? Prabhupāda: Why not? Dress is not very essential. Ian Polsen: There is another question, Your Grace. I wear leather shoes, and I know they come from animals . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: . . . which have been slaughtered for this. Should I stop wearing leather shoes? Prabhupāda: Well, that also you can continue. That is not . . . just like we are using so many things made of skin. But as far as possible, you avoid. There are many shoes without skin, nowadays they are available. First of all try to understand the philosophy. It is very nice attitude that you are . . . (pause) What salary you are getting, government service? Ian Polsen: I've just been promoted. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: I've just been promoted to deal with Value Added Tax, and I will go up from 1,400 pounds a year to 1,700 or 1,800 pounds a year. I'm not sure of my new salary, because I'm starting on Monday. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That means our 150 pounds per month? Ian Polsen: Less the tax. Prabhupāda: Less the tax. *Śyāmasundara: About 4,500 a year, dollars, I think. Thirty*-six hundred? (other devotees calculate) Ian Polsen: Do you deal in percentages? Prabhupāda: Anything can be . . . which can be engaged in the service of the Lord should not be given up. This is our philosophy. Should not be given up. We don't say: "Oh, money is material. I do not touch. My hand becomes turned up." No. (laughs) We don't say all these nonsense philosophy. We know the money, lakṣmī , is Kṛṣṇa's property, so it should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Why it should . . . money we should not touch? Money is Kṛṣṇa's. It must be touched and it should be used for Kṛṣṇa. We don't try to . . . forget that pseudo renouncement. What I have got I shall renounce? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. *Our renouncement means we renounce our personal sense gratification, that's all. That is renouncement. Materialism means personal sense gratification, and spiritual life means no personal sense gratification—all Kṛṣṇa's gratification. That's all. The same teaching by Bhagavad*-gītā. Arjuna was thinking in terms of personal sense gratification: "I shall not fight. It is not good to kill my kinsmen, my brother." That was his personal sense gratification. From ordinary point of view people will say: "How Kṛṣṇa is . . . Arjuna is nice, that he's giving up his claim, and nonviolent." *But this philosophy Kṛṣṇa immediately kicked out. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam (BG 2.2): "Oh, why you are talking nonsense like this?" That was His answer. (laughs) And next He said, aśocyān anvaśocas tvam prajñā*-vādāṁś ca (BG 2.11), "You are talking just like a very learned man, but this kind of lamentation is not done by any learned man. That means you are fool number one." (laughter) *So after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he agreed to fight: "Yes. I shall fight." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now people will say, "Oh, fighting, killing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Yes, Kṛṣṇa wants it. To . . . therefore our business is not in the estimation of this material world to become a good man. Our estimation is how Kṛṣṇa will accept me as good man, that's all. We don't care for this world. Just like gopīs, they left their husband, they left their father, went to Kṛṣṇa. What is this philosophy? They wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not their father, brother. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "This is the highest worship." Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū*-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-manjusa). There is no greater, or topmost sample of worship than the gopīs did. Because their only purpose was to serve Kṛṣṇa, unalloyed, without being disturbed by any other consideration. That is highest perfection—how to serve Kṛṣṇa. How Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. *So at the present moment the best service to render for Kṛṣṇa is that . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . when I speak of Kṛṣṇa, means God, the Supreme Lord. The whole rascal world, they have given up God consciousness. They have become rascal. Therefore to teach them about Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the best service at the present moment. Because the whole world—the so*-called politician, so-called scientist, so-called philosopher—they're all rascals. They have forgotten God. We, we call them directly, they're all rascals, mūḍhā , duṣkṛtina mūḍhā . All sinful, all rascals, because they have no information of God, Kṛṣṇa. Ask any scientist, "Do you know anything about Kṛṣṇa?" "Oh, what is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? This is all foolish, humbug." They will say like that. And he's passing as great scientist. He's fool number one, but he's passing as great scientist. (laughter) Hah! Our Śyāmasundara's daughter, little daughter, she preaches, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" If somebody says: "No, I do not," "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." (laughter) Actually that is nice preaching. Śyāmasundara: The scientist's in California. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientists comes to us. We say: "You are rascal number one." And he agrees. (laughter) Hah! I call him by rascal, fool, demon, and at last he agrees, "Yes." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Still they went away happy. Prabhupāda: This is actual fact. One who does not know about God, what is the value of his knowledge? Ian Polsen: What you say about scientists is also true of Western philosophers . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Ian Polsen: . . . who consider . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is temporary. Suppose a scientist has discovered this nice lamp. So I give him credit, but I can do without this lamp. It is not very necessary. (laughter) Indian man: The modern science is medicine. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: Medical science. Prabhupāda: What medical science? Can they stop disease? What is the value? If they can stop disease then I can accept that they know something. What is their . . . Śyāmasundara: In India the doctors, simply by feeling your pulse they know everything that's wrong with you. Prabhupāda: No. Even that. No physician can stop disease. He can suggest, "This is very nice medicine," but my problem is, "Why shall I become diseased?" That is my problem. Ian Polsen: They only treat the symptoms, not the cause. Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, you can give me some medicine; for the time being I am cured and again I fall diseased. You cannot stop disease. Suppose you have got a very nice coat. That's all right. But one has got not so nice coat, so what is the difference? Śyāmasundara: Coat. *Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so*-called scientific improvement, nice medicine . . . nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall . . . I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that? Ian Polsen: That's true. Indian: That's the hardest part of the whole . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like your British Empire. You are British? Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: British Empire, when there was British Empire, when they were getting money from all parts of the world, some way or other they constructed so many big, big buildings. Now their income is not so big, and now it is difficult to maintain it. We can see practically that you have got so nice buildings in London, but it is not being properly maintained. You haven't got sufficient means now to maintain them. Therefore it was . . . British Empire was for the time being that prosperity. Now to keep up your prestige you are concerned in so many ways. So anything you do in this material world, that is temporary. So many Roman Empire, Moghul Empire, British Empire, Hitler Empire—they came and gone. But my real problem is that I am eternal, so what I am doing for my eternal life? That is real. Temporarily I may become very rich or poor; it doesn't matter. But people are being taught, "Oh, you are poor? You become rich." That's all. Just like our India trying to imitate the Western world. But they do not see that in the Western world, in America, in Europe, why these young boys, they are rejecting this materialistic way of life? These boys have come to me because they have rejected. They don't like. Just like you are coming. Why you are surrendering to me? Because you are not satisfied. *So our Indians, they do not see that, "These men, they . . . they have already everything. Why they are rejecting it?" All facility. Because this will not give us real happiness. We are spirit soul. We cannot be happy simply by material opulence. That is not possible. This is Vedic civilization: how people will be happy. They can be happy simply by self*-realization, spiritual realization, because he is spirit. Material advancement will never make us happy. That's a fact. People have not become happy. In India they say that we neglected this material side therefore. But actually that's not the fact. They have lost their own spiritual culture, therefore they are not . . . but still, whatever little spiritual culture they have got, still they are happier than others, if I make comparative study. In India still in village you'll find a man of practically no income, but he has got his happy home, good wife, a cottage, little bread, but he is happy. *You see? Here I see they have no home, no family life. Even ordinary necessities of life—means eating, sleeping, sex life and defense . . . they have no fixed*-up eating. In America, in the Bowery street, lying down on the street, drinking. You see? So many. Here also in your country, day and night. In India they are lying, suppose they are poverty stricken, lying on the street. Now why you are lying on the street? When I go to the park I see so many there. Our philosophy is that there is no necessity of wasting time for economic development. Be satisfied whatever Kṛṣṇa has given you. That's all right. Be satisfied according to your position, save time, and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the verdict of the śāstra . Because your happiness and distress is already fixed up. According to the body you have got it. You cannot change that. You cannot change that. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I may be wrong here, but Lord Kṛṣṇa has given human being brain, mind . . . Prabhupāda: But misuse it. Indian man: No, if we use it properly. Prabhupāda: But he does not know. That is . . . therefore we call these rascal. Why we are calling these scientists, philosophers, politician rascal? Because they have got brain, but they're misusing. Therefore they have been called duṣkṛtinaḥ . You have got brain; you can utilize it for smuggling and you can utilize it also how to understand Kṛṣṇa. The same brain. Indian man: But the development of mankind . . . Prabhupāda: Development . . . if you become miscreants by utilizing your better brain, then what is the use? You are going to hell. This brain has no meaning. MIsuse of brain. Brain means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is brain. Indian man: Yes. Perform his duty. Prabhupāda: He does not know what is his duty. He talks of so many big, big things, duty. But if I ask, "What is your duty?" he cannot explain. So these things will not help. Simply . . . Indian man: Every man in this world, every being in this world have got a duty, performance, object . . . Prabhupāda: But first of all say what is your duty. Indian man: Duty of the soul. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is your duty? If I ask you: "What is your duty?" what is your answer? Indian man: Lead a good life, develop soul, and, ah, be honest, sincere to people, and, ah . . . Prabhupāda: These are simply words, but you cannot say what is your duty. Indian man: To serve, Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So, why don't you do that? (laughter) That is real duty, yes. Indian man: So we agree. *Prabhupāda: We are teaching that it is your . . . this your duty. Our so*-called material duties as we have done, "This is my duty," that is called dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "You give up your all nonsense duty." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Śyāmasundara: Give up your duty. Prabhupāda: Give up your all nonsense duty. Kṛṣṇa says. So your first duty is to give up your nonsense duty. (laughter) That is your first duty. That "You have concocted so many duties, but please give up all these ideas," that is your first duty. Everyone has manufactured his duty. Just like in our country all the leaders, they thought, "It is my duty," and every other country also, "take to politics." Huh? But people did not become happy. Rather, they were so unhappy that a great leader like Gandhi was killed. But he thought, "I am doing my duty." But why he was killed? Indian man: T’is inevitable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: It was inevitable. Someway or other he has to be . . . Prabhupāda: But inevitable means . . . inevitable, that's all right, but as you are speaking of duty, so Gandhi was working his duty, but other man killed him. He thought that, "You are not doing your duty." Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So who is the judge of what is your duty? What I may think is my duty, someone else may think it's his duty—it's not my duty. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. So what is the duty? Dhanañjaya: The duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real duty. But people do not know that. They are manufacturing their duty. A big man like Gandhi, he also manufactured his duty, but he does not know what is the duty. He never preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore he does not know his duty. *Śyāmasundara: He said that the message of Bhagavad*-gītā is nonviolence. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Opposite. Whatever message it is . . . he was supposed to be a very good scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā. His photograph is with the Bhagavad-gītā. But he did not speak a single word that, "You become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." He talked so many nonsense. All others . . . the real Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." *Nobody says, neither Tilak, Gandhi, this Ramakrishna, this Aurobindo. Nobody says that. He's made purposefully avoiding his duty. And these rascals are going as dutiful. His duty was to say as Kṛṣṇa says, if he is actually student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Here is Kṛṣṇa saying that you surrender, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We are doing that duty. We are not speaking something nonsense. *We are speaking, "Here Kṛṣṇa says surrender. You surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Simple thing. We don't manufacture duty. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to say people, "Here Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). You become His devotee, you always think of Him, you offer Him obeisances." Our simple duty. Indian man: Prabhupāda, yes, that's the way, but we ". . . (indistinct) . . . that is, to love Thy creation." We cannot see Kṛṣṇa straightaway. But human beings, the medium to love His creation. Prabhupāda: You are also talking. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." If say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," what is the difficulty? Indian man: No difficulties. Prabhupāda: Then why are you manufacturing words? Why don't you go in the simple way? Why you are manufacturing in your own way? This is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." You serve Kṛṣṇa, speak to people, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." It is simple. Why you are manufacturing words? That is the disease. The Gandhi did like that. Tilak did like that. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 2, 1972, London (Conversation and interview with Ian Polsen) Prabhupāda: . . . and if we repeat that, what is our fault? (laughter) Kyu ji? (What did you say?) Caturbhuja. Isme humara dosh kya hai? (What is our fault with this?) We say Kṛṣṇa said that, "He is a rascal who does not surrender unto Me." (laughs) Kṛṣṇa has chastised in so many places. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . . . (indistinct) . . . ( BG 16.19). "Those who are envious, like that, I put them in the darkest region of hellish condition." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says like that. Another place He says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): "A person who is rascal, he considers Me as ordinary human being." (break) Ian Polsen: . . . to surrender. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Ian Polsen: And you said that prostrate . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughs) Very nice. Ian Polsen: And I have come to ask Your Grace because I cannot make spiritual progress without the grace of the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You will make progress. Your attitude is very nice. This is the asset. Hmm. Ian Polsen: My next question is . . . Prabhupāda: Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: The . . . (aside) You are feeling uncomfortable? (aside) You can give him some seat. He is not accustomed. Ian Polsen: No, thank you. I can sit here. Prabhupāda: (laughs) The . . . our present conditional life is rebellious. We have rebelled against the authority of Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord. It is very simple thing. Just like a person, a citizen, if he becomes rebellious, then he is arrested and put into custody, and his life becomes conditioned; he has no freedom. Similarly, as soon as we are rebellious to the authority of the Supreme Lord, we are captured by māyā —that is also an energy of Kṛṣṇa—and we become conditioned. So this is our position. So in this conditional life we can never be happy. That's a fact. So we have to transcend this conditional life and again become engaged in our constitutional position. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now our consciousness is polluted. We are thinking different way. Just like a madman thinks that . . . sometimes he says: "I am the king." He stands sometimes in the midst of the road: "Stop. I order you!" Does it not? Madman. (laughs) Nobody cares for him, but he says . . . thinks like that. Similarly, under the spell of this illusory energy, we are thinking differently. Somebody, I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking "Englishman," he is thinking "American." I am thinking, "I am proprietor of this"; I am thinking, "I am the master of this." So many ways. These things are all madman's proposition, that's all. So this madness can go when we actually surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then we can understand things as they are. So we are training our students in that way. If anyone is serious, then he can make his life successful, even during this span of life. So I'm very glad that you have got this attitude. So it is very simple thing. Hmm? There is a Bengali verse: *Just like a person ghostly*-haunted, he speaks so many nonsense, up to somebody's declaring, "I am God." First of all, "I am this; I am that. I am this; I am that. I want to become this. I want to become this." And when he is frustrated with everything, then he says, "I am God." That is also another illusion. How you can become God? So, insanity. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means sanity. That's all. So to come to that position of sanity, Lord Caitanya has given us very simple method: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If anyone sincerely chants without any offense, then his life is successful. So what is your name? Ian Polsen: Ian Polsen. Prabhupāda: Polsen. Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside) So you . . . you can talk with Mr. Polsen and give him instruction. Ian Polsen: Thank you, Your Grace. Before I go, Your Grace, I am employed in government service. Is it your wish that I resign? Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say like that. The thing is that you serve Kṛṣṇa. Our predecessors, the ācāryas , they are also government servant, but they resigned when they decided to preach this cult. If you have desire to preach this cult, then that is different. Otherwise, as a gentleman you can remain in your position, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and follow the rules and regulation. That we recommend. Ian Polsen: Your Grace, how many times do you recommend that I chant on my beads? How many rounds? Prabhupāda: We recommend minimum sixteen rounds. Ian Polsen: Minimum sixteen rounds, every day. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, you can chant twenty*-four hours. Minimum sixteen rounds. Ian Polsen: Is it true that if I follow the regulative principles, the four, that I will be able to chant without offense? Prabhupāda: Yes. But, ah . . . you are married? No. Ian Polsen: No. Prabhupāda: No family man? No. So best thing would have been to live with us and work, give contribution as much as possible for running on this missionary work. But the thing is, we have no place to . . . Śyāmasundara: We haven't got a very nice place. Prabhupāda: Otherwise I would have asked you to live with us and work. Śyāmasundara: We're trying to get a nice place, with bigger facilities. Now they're sleeping in the hallways practically. Prabhupāda: You have got your own apartment? Ian Polsen: I've just transferred down from Edinburgh on Friday for the first time. So I have not found a place yet. I'm staying in a hotel for the time being. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he used to be a shepherd in France. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Kulaśekhara: He used to be a shepherd three years ago. He lived as a shepherd for some years. And, ah, he was with a Muslim man who was telling him about sac*-cid-ānanda , explaining to him about the philosophy of sac-cid and ānanda , about the soul and the spirit. So, in explained—that's when I first met him—he said: "I may appear to you that I'm a businessman, but also I've been living as a shepherd." Prabhupāda: So you can read our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . You have got? Ian Polsen: Yes, I have got Caitanya's teachings. I have . . . Prabhupāda: *Nectar of Devotion* . . . Ian Polsen: I have *Nectar of Devotion*. *Prabhupāda: . . . Teachings of Lord Caitanya , Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. *Ian Polsen: I have Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: In this way, study seriously these books. Ian Polsen: May I speak, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: There is a magazine called Studies in Comparative Religion which is published in this country, which I feel . . . Prabhupāda: That will not help you. Ian Polsen: No, but the reason why I mention it is that I think it is a magazine that Your Grace might contribute to, to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because it's based on three principles: principles of a traditional religion, the principles of spiritual guidance from a spiritual master, and the invocation of the name of God. There is great similarity there, and I think that the few people who read that magazine could be reached through the magazine. Prabhupāda: What is the name? Ian Polsen: It is called Studies in Comparative Religion . And I could leave the . . . I have no interest in this magazine except that I subscribe to it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Comparative religion, from our point of view, that there cannot be many religion. Cannot be many religion. Religion means . . . we define religion as the law given by God. So we understand from Bhagavad*-gītā that God says, Kṛṣṇa says, that man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your obeisances unto Me." So any religion who has no conception of God, how he can think of God? If I think of something, that something must be known to me; *otherwise how can I think of it? If I imagine something, that is not God. My imagination of God is . . . God is not a thing to be imagined by me. He is a concrete thing. Therefore according to our philosophy, any so*-called religion which has no conception of God, that is not religion; that is simply mental speculation. We accept religion means the law given by God. But if you do not know what is God, what is His law, then where is religion? *Therefore in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said that all types of pseudo religion is rejected. You can ask any religious man, "What is your conception of God?" he cannot give any clear conception. So far we are concerned, we can immediately give conception of God—His name, His address, everything. That is the difference. Therefore strictly speaking, we do not accept any system of religion as bona fide. They are all rejected. That is not religion. They do not know what is God. What is that religion? Strictly speaking, that is not religion. But if we speak publicly, they will be angry. So this comparative study of religion, we don't believe in it, because there is no religion. Where is the scope of comparative study? Śyāmasundara: Nothing can compare. Prabhupāda: There is no religion. Strictly speaking, simply some dogmas, maybe some moral principle. That is another thing. But moral principle we have to transcend. We don't say that don't follow moral principle. But even they do not follow the moral principles. Then what is the . . . where is the religion? Just like Christian religion, it is said that, "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. So nobody's . . . factually, religion means conception of God and the words of God, following the words. Just like good citizen means he knows what is the government and what is the law of government. He is following. Similarly, religious person means he must know what is God and what is the words . . . what are the words of God. So our principle is that we follow the words of God. God says . . . God says that, "Always think of Me." So who can object to this, if he's seriously about religion? Why one should not think of God always? God says that, "You think of Me." But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of? We have got God, Kṛṣṇa, here. We can think of His form. *We are busy in His service. We are not only thinking, we are trying to become His devotee. We are serving, trying to serve Him—rising early in the morning, offering maṅgala-āratrika , then prayers, then reading His message, trying to apply in our life as far as possible. We are not perfect, but we are trying to follow the instruction of God. This is our life. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakta mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. So you have studied that magazine. Can you give me any idea, what do you think about religion? What is religion? *Ian Polsen: Religion to me means more now that I have come in contact with Kṛṣṇa consciousness than it did before. It means self*-realization. It means realization of my relationship with the Supreme. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ian Polsen: It is to understand that, and to realize it to the limit of my intelligence. Prabhupāda: Say . . . so first of all you have to realize what you are, then you can understand what is your relationship with God. And according to that relationship with God, when you act, that is religion. That is religion. Ian Polsen: And one needs guidance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. First of all we have to know ourselves. To know ourselves means self*-realization: "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." Then what is this spirit soul? Naturally, part and parcel of God. Therefore as spirit soul my duty is to serve God. That is religion, plain thing. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It is serving me. That is healthy condition. If there is any pain—"Oh, this finger I cannot scratch. I'm feeling pain"—that is irreligion. So long the part and parcel of my body, the finger, cannot serve me, it is not normal condition. So every living being is part and parcel of God. So long he's unable to serve God, that is his material condition. But as soon as he's engaged actually in the service of God, that is his real, liberated position. Same example: If the finger is diseased, it cannot serve. But when it is serving . . . (indistinct) . . . that is his healthy condition. Similarly, we living entities, we are part and parcel of God. When we are not engaged in the service of the Lord, or God . . . everyone is engaged to some service. Somebody's serving his family, somebody's serving himself, somebody's serving his government, somebody's serving so many things. And somebody's serving even cats and dogs. So these are all mad condition. So when he turns to God . . . service he must give. Nobody can say: "I'm not serving anybody." That is not possible. You must be serving somebody. Just like you are serving government, he is serving some office, because service is our nature. So we are not happy, because the service is misplaced. When the service is rightly placed, then it is our normal condition. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that: "You surrender unto Me." That is real liberated condition. So our mission is serving God. In this way, that people are suffering on account of their godless life. Just see. So we are making propaganda that, "Serve God, then you will be happy." We know why he's suffering. The same example: The finger in diseased condition cannot serve me. It has to be treated when there is some pain. Suppose this, the nail, so I apply some medicine, cure it so that it can serve. So the whole world is suffering because he's not fit to serve God. So if he becomes fit to serve God, then all the suffering will be gone. The same example again: When the finger is fit to serve, that means it has no disease. And so long it is diseased, there is pain, it cannot serve. Śyāmasundara: It suffers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: And it suffers. Prabhupāda: It is suffering. When it is not serving, therefore it is suffering, and when it is serving, there is no suffering. Two things. There cannot be three thing. This is very scientific. It is not imagination. The finger is not serving me means it is diseased. It is suffering. So they're not accepting this process. We say that you are suffering because you're not serving God. You serve God, your sufferings will be gone. Do you think our philosophy is all right, or not? Ian Polsen: I accept it completely. Yes. Śyāmasundara: I think he has been also well educated. He understands the truth. Kulaśekhara: Did you go to ārati ? Ian Polsen: No. Prabhupāda: Hmm. As soon as you are engaged in the service of the Lord, we are in healthy condition—there is no suffering. Just like these boys, they did not know Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, two years or three years ago. But since they have been engaged in the service of, they are feeling very nice, healthy. Everyone is asking me, "Why so many young men are attracted by this movement?" (laughs) They think it is movement. No. They have taken the real occupation—serving Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are receptive. When one is normally situated, naturally he feels happy and he's healthy. When in the diseased condition, he cannot be happy. When the disease is gone, in healthy condition, naturally you'll be happy. Indian man: Prabhupāda, is it to say it is a way of life or an aim of life? Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man: Way of life or aim of life? Prabhupāda: The aim is that you must get free from your diseased condition. That should be the aim. It is not the way of life. You must get free yourself from the diseased condition. That is not a way of life, that is a must. If you want to be free from diseased condition, you must treat yourself properly. The treating is . . . Treatment is you surrender unto God and take to His service. This is simple. You are suffering, that's a fact. Everyone knows. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody can say: "No, I am not suffering." Is there anybody? The body is meant for suffering, this material body. But because they do not approach the real physician, they think that they have got a material body, and that material body means there are senses, the sense gratification will give him satisfaction. Therefore he's simply after sense gratification, that's all. That is not treatment. That is still more complication. Śyāmasundara: Aggravates the disease. Prabhupāda: That's all. People after sense gratification. A diseased man who cannot digest, if he thinks that, "I shall eat this, I shall eat that, I shall eat that," but actually he cannot digest. Eating this or that, how it will help him? (laughs) If you have lost your digesting powers, then if you change, "I shall eat this, I shall eat that," that will not help you. So the modern civilized man, he has lost the point how he can be happy. He is simply changing the program of sense gratification. That's all. Ian Polsen: Becoming more and more desperate. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break) We have no objection. We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that's all. That is our mission. You are forget . . . (break) You understand little Bengali? Guest: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: *After forgetting Kṛṣṇa, one wants to lord it over the material nature, but he becomes . . . (break) Especially in the Western world—everywhere—attracting sex life. Mini*-skirt, so that the other party may be attracted. So many means and ways, they want to avoid the after-result of sex life, contraceptive. *The center is sex life. They are giving up everything, the hippies, but sex is there. That they cannot give up. You see? So*-called giving up, but they cannot give the real central point. *So this is māyā . He's captured by this one idea, mithuna. Mithuna. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Everyone is attracted by this sex life. We are trying to use this sex life in different way. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇa-bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They're becoming diseased in so many ways. Sex life, indulgence of sex life, means you will become diseased, so many disease. That is a medical fact. So this movement is very scientific movement, authorized. Anyone who will take to it seriously surely will be cured of this material disease and be happy. Ian Polsen: Your Grace, you said I needn't give up my job, but may I look forward to the time when I may give up my job? Prabhupāda: You come morning, evening; you come. As far as possible associate with us and try to give some service. Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: Suppose you are getting some money. We have no money. If you try to serve, that will . . . sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). This line is service. The more you render service, the more you become enlightened. If you simply philosophize, theorize, you'll get no benefit. You must render service. Ian Polsen: May I join the kīrtana in the streets over the weekend? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, whenever you get opportunity, kīrtana . Yes. Very nice. Ian Polsen: Dressed as I am? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ian Polsen: Dressed as I am? Prabhupāda: Why not? Dress is not very essential. Ian Polsen: There is another question, Your Grace. I wear leather shoes, and I know they come from animals . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: . . . which have been slaughtered for this. Should I stop wearing leather shoes? Prabhupāda: Well, that also you can continue. That is not . . . just like we are using so many things made of skin. But as far as possible, you avoid. There are many shoes without skin, nowadays they are available. First of all try to understand the philosophy. It is very nice attitude that you are . . . (pause) What salary you are getting, government service? Ian Polsen: I've just been promoted. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: I've just been promoted to deal with Value Added Tax, and I will go up from 1,400 pounds a year to 1,700 or 1,800 pounds a year. I'm not sure of my new salary, because I'm starting on Monday. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That means our 150 pounds per month? Ian Polsen: Less the tax. Prabhupāda: Less the tax. *Śyāmasundara: About 4,500 a year, dollars, I think. Thirty*-six hundred? (other devotees calculate) Ian Polsen: Do you deal in percentages? Prabhupāda: Anything can be . . . which can be engaged in the service of the Lord should not be given up. This is our philosophy. Should not be given up. We don't say: "Oh, money is material. I do not touch. My hand becomes turned up." No. (laughs) We don't say all these nonsense philosophy. We know the money, lakṣmī , is Kṛṣṇa's property, so it should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Why it should . . . money we should not touch? Money is Kṛṣṇa's. It must be touched and it should be used for Kṛṣṇa. We don't try to . . . forget that pseudo renouncement. What I have got I shall renounce? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. *Our renouncement means we renounce our personal sense gratification, that's all. That is renouncement. Materialism means personal sense gratification, and spiritual life means no personal sense gratification—all Kṛṣṇa's gratification. That's all. The same teaching by Bhagavad*-gītā. Arjuna was thinking in terms of personal sense gratification: "I shall not fight. It is not good to kill my kinsmen, my brother." That was his personal sense gratification. From ordinary point of view people will say: "How Kṛṣṇa is . . . Arjuna is nice, that he's giving up his claim, and nonviolent." *But this philosophy Kṛṣṇa immediately kicked out. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam (BG 2.2): "Oh, why you are talking nonsense like this?" That was His answer. (laughs) And next He said, aśocyān anvaśocas tvam prajñā*-vādāṁś ca (BG 2.11), "You are talking just like a very learned man, but this kind of lamentation is not done by any learned man. That means you are fool number one." (laughter) *So after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he agreed to fight: "Yes. I shall fight." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now people will say, "Oh, fighting, killing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Yes, Kṛṣṇa wants it. To . . . therefore our business is not in the estimation of this material world to become a good man. Our estimation is how Kṛṣṇa will accept me as good man, that's all. We don't care for this world. Just like gopīs, they left their husband, they left their father, went to Kṛṣṇa. What is this philosophy? They wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not their father, brother. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "This is the highest worship." Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū*-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-manjusa). There is no greater, or topmost sample of worship than the gopīs did. Because their only purpose was to serve Kṛṣṇa, unalloyed, without being disturbed by any other consideration. That is highest perfection—how to serve Kṛṣṇa. How Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. *So at the present moment the best service to render for Kṛṣṇa is that . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . when I speak of Kṛṣṇa, means God, the Supreme Lord. The whole rascal world, they have given up God consciousness. They have become rascal. Therefore to teach them about Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the best service at the present moment. Because the whole world—the so*-called politician, so-called scientist, so-called philosopher—they're all rascals. They have forgotten God. We, we call them directly, they're all rascals, mūḍhā , duṣkṛtina mūḍhā . All sinful, all rascals, because they have no information of God, Kṛṣṇa. Ask any scientist, "Do you know anything about Kṛṣṇa?" "Oh, what is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? This is all foolish, humbug." They will say like that. And he's passing as great scientist. He's fool number one, but he's passing as great scientist. (laughter) Hah! Our Śyāmasundara's daughter, little daughter, she preaches, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" If somebody says: "No, I do not," "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." (laughter) Actually that is nice preaching. Śyāmasundara: The scientist's in California. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientists comes to us. We say: "You are rascal number one." And he agrees. (laughter) Hah! I call him by rascal, fool, demon, and at last he agrees, "Yes." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Still they went away happy. Prabhupāda: This is actual fact. One who does not know about God, what is the value of his knowledge? Ian Polsen: What you say about scientists is also true of Western philosophers . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Ian Polsen: . . . who consider . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is temporary. Suppose a scientist has discovered this nice lamp. So I give him credit, but I can do without this lamp. It is not very necessary. (laughter) Indian man: The modern science is medicine. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: Medical science. Prabhupāda: What medical science? Can they stop disease? What is the value? If they can stop disease then I can accept that they know something. What is their . . . Śyāmasundara: In India the doctors, simply by feeling your pulse they know everything that's wrong with you. Prabhupāda: No. Even that. No physician can stop disease. He can suggest, "This is very nice medicine," but my problem is, "Why shall I become diseased?" That is my problem. Ian Polsen: They only treat the symptoms, not the cause. Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, you can give me some medicine; for the time being I am cured and again I fall diseased. You cannot stop disease. Suppose you have got a very nice coat. That's all right. But one has got not so nice coat, so what is the difference? Śyāmasundara: Coat. *Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so*-called scientific improvement, nice medicine . . . nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall . . . I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that? Ian Polsen: That's true. Indian: That's the hardest part of the whole . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like your British Empire. You are British? Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: British Empire, when there was British Empire, when they were getting money from all parts of the world, some way or other they constructed so many big, big buildings. Now their income is not so big, and now it is difficult to maintain it. We can see practically that you have got so nice buildings in London, but it is not being properly maintained. You haven't got sufficient means now to maintain them. Therefore it was . . . British Empire was for the time being that prosperity. Now to keep up your prestige you are concerned in so many ways. So anything you do in this material world, that is temporary. So many Roman Empire, Moghul Empire, British Empire, Hitler Empire—they came and gone. But my real problem is that I am eternal, so what I am doing for my eternal life? That is real. Temporarily I may become very rich or poor; it doesn't matter. But people are being taught, "Oh, you are poor? You become rich." That's all. Just like our India trying to imitate the Western world. But they do not see that in the Western world, in America, in Europe, why these young boys, they are rejecting this materialistic way of life? These boys have come to me because they have rejected. They don't like. Just like you are coming. Why you are surrendering to me? Because you are not satisfied. *So our Indians, they do not see that, "These men, they . . . they have already everything. Why they are rejecting it?" All facility. Because this will not give us real happiness. We are spirit soul. We cannot be happy simply by material opulence. That is not possible. This is Vedic civilization: how people will be happy. They can be happy simply by self*-realization, spiritual realization, because he is spirit. Material advancement will never make us happy. That's a fact. People have not become happy. In India they say that we neglected this material side therefore. But actually that's not the fact. They have lost their own spiritual culture, therefore they are not . . . but still, whatever little spiritual culture they have got, still they are happier than others, if I make comparative study. In India still in village you'll find a man of practically no income, but he has got his happy home, good wife, a cottage, little bread, but he is happy. *You see? Here I see they have no home, no family life. Even ordinary necessities of life—means eating, sleeping, sex life and defense . . . they have no fixed*-up eating. In America, in the Bowery street, lying down on the street, drinking. You see? So many. Here also in your country, day and night. In India they are lying, suppose they are poverty stricken, lying on the street. Now why you are lying on the street? When I go to the park I see so many there. Our philosophy is that there is no necessity of wasting time for economic development. Be satisfied whatever Kṛṣṇa has given you. That's all right. Be satisfied according to your position, save time, and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the verdict of the śāstra . Because your happiness and distress is already fixed up. According to the body you have got it. You cannot change that. You cannot change that. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I may be wrong here, but Lord Kṛṣṇa has given human being brain, mind . . . Prabhupāda: But misuse it. Indian man: No, if we use it properly. Prabhupāda: But he does not know. That is . . . therefore we call these rascal. Why we are calling these scientists, philosophers, politician rascal? Because they have got brain, but they're misusing. Therefore they have been called duṣkṛtinaḥ . You have got brain; you can utilize it for smuggling and you can utilize it also how to understand Kṛṣṇa. The same brain. Indian man: But the development of mankind . . . Prabhupāda: Development . . . if you become miscreants by utilizing your better brain, then what is the use? You are going to hell. This brain has no meaning. MIsuse of brain. Brain means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is brain. Indian man: Yes. Perform his duty. Prabhupāda: He does not know what is his duty. He talks of so many big, big things, duty. But if I ask, "What is your duty?" he cannot explain. So these things will not help. Simply . . . Indian man: Every man in this world, every being in this world have got a duty, performance, object . . . Prabhupāda: But first of all say what is your duty. Indian man: Duty of the soul. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is your duty? If I ask you: "What is your duty?" what is your answer? Indian man: Lead a good life, develop soul, and, ah, be honest, sincere to people, and, ah . . . Prabhupāda: These are simply words, but you cannot say what is your duty. Indian man: To serve, Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So, why don't you do that? (laughter) That is real duty, yes. Indian man: So we agree. *Prabhupāda: We are teaching that it is your . . . this your duty. Our so*-called material duties as we have done, "This is my duty," that is called dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "You give up your all nonsense duty." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Śyāmasundara: Give up your duty. Prabhupāda: Give up your all nonsense duty. Kṛṣṇa says. So your first duty is to give up your nonsense duty. (laughter) That is your first duty. That "You have concocted so many duties, but please give up all these ideas," that is your first duty. Everyone has manufactured his duty. Just like in our country all the leaders, they thought, "It is my duty," and every other country also, "take to politics." Huh? But people did not become happy. Rather, they were so unhappy that a great leader like Gandhi was killed. But he thought, "I am doing my duty." But why he was killed? Indian man: T’is inevitable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: It was inevitable. Someway or other he has to be . . . Prabhupāda: But inevitable means . . . inevitable, that's all right, but as you are speaking of duty, so Gandhi was working his duty, but other man killed him. He thought that, "You are not doing your duty." Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So who is the judge of what is your duty? What I may think is my duty, someone else may think it's his duty—it's not my duty. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. So what is the duty? Dhanañjaya: The duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real duty. But people do not know that. They are manufacturing their duty. A big man like Gandhi, he also manufactured his duty, but he does not know what is the duty. He never preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore he does not know his duty. *Śyāmasundara: He said that the message of Bhagavad*-gītā is nonviolence. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Opposite. Whatever message it is . . . he was supposed to be a very good scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā. His photograph is with the Bhagavad-gītā. But he did not speak a single word that, "You become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." He talked so many nonsense. All others . . . the real Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." *Nobody says, neither Tilak, Gandhi, this Ramakrishna, this Aurobindo. Nobody says that. He's made purposefully avoiding his duty. And these rascals are going as dutiful. His duty was to say as Kṛṣṇa says, if he is actually student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Here is Kṛṣṇa saying that you surrender, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We are doing that duty. We are not speaking something nonsense. *We are speaking, "Here Kṛṣṇa says surrender. You surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Simple thing. We don't manufacture duty. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to say people, "Here Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). You become His devotee, you always think of Him, you offer Him obeisances." Our simple duty. Indian man: Prabhupāda, yes, that's the way, but we ". . . (indistinct) . . . that is, to love Thy creation." We cannot see Kṛṣṇa straightaway. But human beings, the medium to love His creation. Prabhupāda: You are also talking. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." If say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," what is the difficulty? Indian man: No difficulties. Prabhupāda: Then why are you manufacturing words? Why don't you go in the simple way? Why you are manufacturing in your own way? This is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." You serve Kṛṣṇa, speak to people, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." It is simple. Why you are manufacturing words? That is the disease. The Gandhi did like that. Tilak did like that. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa, not Kṛṣṇa's money. (laughter) That is taken by Rāvaṇa. (laughter) Just like Sītā belonged to Rāma, but it was taken by Rāma, er . . . Rāvaṇa. And that is . . . and Hanumān become perplexed. So we are perplexed that Rāma . . . Sītā has been taken by Rāvaṇa, and so we are trying to rescue her. *And that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Sītā-Lakṣmījī, eh? Rāmacandra*-Lord Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. So Rāvaṇa thought that, "Let me make profit taking away Sītā." The result was that he became vanquished with everything. He could not get the favor of Sītā, but the whole family, whole kingdom became vanquished. So this policy is being followed at the present moment. Everybody is interested with Sītā, not with Rāma. You see? But the foolish people do not know that without Rāma you cannot keep Sītā. You see? That is happening. When you go to ask for some money in India, they give us one thousand, two thousand. And when there is war within Pakistan and Hindustan, somebody is giving fifty lakhs , somebody is giving hundred lakhs . And what is being used? Namo "bombayah" namaḥ. "Bombayah." *So if you don't spend for Rāma, then you will have to spend for bomb, that's all. You cannot keep the money. That is the way of nature. That, "I want to keep money"—that is illusion. You cannot keep. It will be spoiled. If you don't spend for Kṛṣṇa, then it will be spoiled for some other purpose. Therefore so long as we have got money, let us spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is real savings. That is real savings. There is a verse, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer ( SB 1.5.17). That verse is very nice. Hmm? Where is it? *Dhanañjaya: Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (break) *Evaṁ tāvat tat karma*-karmādi anartha-hetutva taṁ vihāya harer līlāiva bandhaniya tam . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary) Nārada Muni is advising that if one gives up his prescribed duty, sva-dharmaṁ . . . tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ. Sva-dharmaṁ means occupation. According to Vedic thought, occupation means brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra—guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now we have got somebody is businessman, somebody is lawyer, somebody is engineer, somebody is something. So somehow or other, everybody has got some prescribed duty or occupation. *So here it is advised, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann : even one gives up his prescribed duty and takes shelter of Hari, Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann. Now if one executes devotional service after taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, that is all right—but even if he falls down, and in immature stage, the Bhagavat says, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ : "What is the loss there?" Just try to understand. Even if he falls down . . . because there are so many strict rules and regulation. If one follows the rules and regulation, and the devotional . . . avyabhicāreṇa bhakti . So even if he becomes avyabhicāreṇa , broken, and he may be not successful in one life, but Nārada Muni says—this is the word of Nārada Muni—says: "Then what is the loss there?" *But if one is engaged in his occupational duty very perfectly but he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then what is his gain? This is the question. Ko vārtha āpto : what does he gain, abhajatāṁ , if he is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, sva*-dharmataḥ , but he is fixed up in his prescribed duties? So we have to understand this important verse, that we may be very faithfully discharging our duties as a family man, as a community man, as a nationalist, as a businessman or this or that perfectly, but if we do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no gain—it is simply waste of time. This is the verdict. On the other hand, one gives up the occupational duties, prescribed duties, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even if he does not advance perfectly—if he falls down—there is no loss. Here this man sticking to his prescribed duty does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no gain. On the other hand, a man gives up his prescribed duty, takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness but does not make it perfect—falls down—he has no loss. Try to understand. So Śrīdhara Svāmī remarks on this, nānusvadharma tyāgena bhajana bhakti paripakena yadi kṛtārtho bhavet tadā na kadācit cintā . All right, one has given up his prescribed duty and he is engaged in devotional service. That's very nice; there is no question. But yadi punar apakva eva mriyate . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary). There is no anartha , no anartha . There is no anartha ; still he is gainer. The thing is that this man who has given up his prescribed duties and taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even he falls down, whatever percentage he has executed, it goes with him, whereas in ordinary work, suppose you are a businessman, you have accumulated millions of dollars in the bank—when you go, the money remains in the bank; *you go empty*-handed. Śyāmasundara: Death duties . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have worked so hard for this millions of dollars—it is all lost. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham (BG 10.34): "I am death, and as death I take away everything." *So the purport is that whether I accumulate millions of dollars, and at the time of my death it remains in the bank and I go empty*-handed, and according to my karma I take another birth, may be human being or cats and dogs—that is a different thing—but whatever I have accumulated here, that remains here—it does not go with me. *But this devotional service, whatever you have executed, even if it is not fulfilled cent percent, even it is ten percent or fifteen percent, that ten percent, fifteen percent or fifty percent goes with you, and next life you get a chance for begin either from fifty*-one percent or sixteen percent, as you have . . . But all other material assets, that you cannot take. Therefore the conclusion is that so long we have got some strength, intelligence, money, it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that it will go with us. Indian guest: Swami, could you explain in simple words what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Explain what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Indian guest: Yes, in simple . . . Prabhupāda: You explain, Revatīnandana Mahārāja. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to understand first of all that I am not this body; that this body is born, this body dies, but I am not this body. I am an eternal spirit, jīvātmā , and I am living in this body. Then when this body is finished, I will go out of this body. And whatever is my desire at death, whatever is my work in this life, I will get another body in that condition. It will go on like this. *But the solution how to get the eternal soul out of the cycle of birth and death is to understand that the spirit soul, the jīvātmā , is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. In the Fourth Chapter of Kṛṣṇa's Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "When you have seen the truth, you will see that all these living beings are My parts and parcels. They are in Me, and they are Mine." (BG 4.35) And Kṛṣṇa says that these part and parcels are all eternal. They are eternal entities; they are actually associates of Kṛṣṇa. We have forgotten this. Now to revive my relationship with Kṛṣṇa, the part and parcel serves the whole. Just like the part of the hand . . . the part of the body is the hand. The hand must take foods and must put the foodstuff to the mouth and into the stomach; then the hand is nourished. If the hand tries to enjoy the food separately, that will be frustration, there will be no benefit. But the part and parcel, the hand, must serve the whole body. Similarly, we part and parcel entities are, by nature, we are servants of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are serving boss, country, family, and if we have nothing else to serve we serve a dog or a cat. But we are always a servant. Service is part of our nature. That is the thing you cannot change. We are all servants. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that I am not anymore serving on this bodily platform but I am serving as a spirit, and the spirit is meant to serve God, to serve Kṛṣṇa. *So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become conscious that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. It's His energies. I am part of His energies. Therefore every energy should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. My business is to offer it. This is called bhakti*-yoga . This is what we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one understands, begins to act on that principle, then he is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The result is that he purifies his existence. Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman, Supreme Spirit. When you link with Kṛṣṇa you are purified, and you realize, "I am spirit soul," and even before quitting this body you are seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere in that pure state. Then automatically in that state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even this body is dying . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "One who is always fixed his mind on Me can know and remember Me even at the time of death." (Bg 8.5) And thus you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa—that is your desire, for Kṛṣṇa—you take birth in His eternal abode, which is called Vaikuṇṭha, or actually Goloka Vṛndāvana. So to . . . Prabhupāda: Indian guest: Where to fix our attention then these days? To "fix the attention in Me" means . . . what does He means by "Me"? Prabhupāda: What do you mean? What do you mean? Indian guest: That . . . at the time of death. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "Me"? Indian guest: "Me" means . . . at this junction, there is nothing. Prabhupāda: If I say: "Give me a glass of water," what do I mean by this? Indian guest: Yes. Do you mean this body? I don't think you mean that body. There is something else in me, so for the bodily person, if it is not explained properly . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore, bodily person, this education is being imparted, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul." Now, at this present moment, when I speak in my bodily concept of life, "Give me a glass of water," that water is needed for my body. Indian guest: The soul is not to be seen, so what can a man, by dying, fix his attention or ātmā , in what? It is not to be seen. And nirākāra , there is a God, we cannot see it. So could it be made clear in worldly words to which a man, by dying . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot see . . . you cannot see so many things. That does not mean that things are not existing. You cannot see what is beyond this wall. Indian guest: So . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Your seeing power is very defective. So this is not a argument, that because you cannot see, there is no soul. That is not good argument. You cannot see beyond this wall. That does not mean there is nothing beyond this wall. *Your seeing power is defective. So you cannot see so many things—but you can hear. Just like beyond this wall, who knows? He can say: "Beyond this wall there is another house, belongs to Mr. Such*-and-such." He can say. So you can understand what is beyond this wall by hearing, not by seeing. Similarly, you see there is no soul, but you can hear from Kṛṣṇa there is soul. Kṛṣṇa says: So you have to hear from Kṛṣṇa. Why do you believe on your seeing power? You are so defective, and still you are believing on your seeing power. Your argument is, "I cannot see." But what is the value of your seeing? Why don't you consider in that way? Indian guest: There are so many arguments . . . Prabhupāda: Your seeing is worthless. First of all you have to admit that. You cannot say, "Because I do not see, there is no existence." This is not argument. Indian guest: I am not arguing. I am trying to understand it, because I have . . . I want to understand it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now you understand that I say that just like nobody sees where is the soul. Birth, one can perceive—that is the education. Just like a man dies, his relatives cry, "Oh, my father gone. My father gone." Why your father is dying? See your father. You have seen your father, this body. Why you are crying? What is your answer? You have seen all along this body is your father. Why you are crying, "My father is gone, my father is gone"? Why? Indian guest: That is why I ask—that is it cannot be seen . . . Prabhupāda: That means that you have not seen your father, so long you have . . . Indian guest: You have to be fixed up, fix the attention while dying. That is my question . . . Indian guest (2): Can I answer, Swami? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: Yes, you can answer. *Indian guest (2): For us, Kṛṣṇa is not just airy. His personality is as real as you and I are real. So when the attention is to be fixed, it is to be fixed on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa Himself—Kṛṣṇa with physical body, Kṛṣṇa as you see in the temple down below, Kṛṣṇa as described by Bhagavad*-gītā and described by Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Indian guest (2): Fix the attention on Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. *Indian guest (2): . . . Kṛṣṇa in His personalized form, and you will never go wrong. So while dying, fix your attention on Kṛṣṇa. And you can only do it if throughout your life if Kṛṣṇa's name is on your tongue. If for twenty*-four hours if you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, at the time of your death, His name will automatically come. Prabhupāda: His name and He are not different. Indian guest (2): He and His name, Swāmījī has taught us, not different. For any other thing, the object and its name are different. But for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's name is the same thing as Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: There is one more question, Swāmījī . . . (indistinct) . . . in *Gītā* it is said several times that ye bhajanti tattve. Tattve. What does it mean? How can you explain tattve ? Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . T*-a-t-t-v-e. I just want only to understand this. I don't want to ask you a question. I tell you very frankly. I want to ask a question to understand when in twenty-fourth verse of Ninth Chapter, which says: Tattven . . . this example, tattven ? Prabhupāda: Tattvena . Tattvena means "in truth." Tattvena means "in truth." In truth, what is actually Kṛṣṇa, that is called tattvena . So that can be understood, Kṛṣṇa explains: *That tattvena you can understand by bhakti . Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . So you have to take to the bhakti*-yoga; then you will understand what is tattvena . Indian guest (3): Why? Indian guest: If one is ignorant, what is the way of reaching that stage, when he can understand . . .? *Prabhupāda: Yes. First thing is śraddhā . Just like you are asking question: śraddhā , faith. Just like anyone who is coming to us, he has got some little faith. But that is the beginning— ādau śraddhā. Śraddhā means, "It is very nice. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice. Let us try to understand what it is." This is called śraddhā . Then next stage is ādau śraddhā tato sādhu*-saṅgo (CC Madhya 23.14), Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). *Then next stage, if you are serious about this, to understand kṛṣṇa*-tattvena , then you must associate with persons who are actually kṛṣṇa-bhakta. Just like if you want to learn some business, you go to the association of that business society. You see? First of all you are interested, "I learn this business. I want to learn this business." All right, then you go to the society, stock exchange society, this society, banker's society, all this—you learn. *First of all this intention: śraddhā . Then sādhu*-saṅga. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgo. Sat-saṅga . Then bhajana-kriyā. Then as they are executing devotional service—they are rising early in the morning, having mangala-ārati , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , reading books, taking prasāda , going to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness—these are called bhajana-kriyā . Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt : then things which are blocking you to understand kṛṣṇa-tattvena , that will be finished. That means anartha . Just like we prohibit our students not to have illicit sex; not to drink or any intoxication, up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; *no meat*-eating. *So these are within the bhajana*-kriyā. Early rising early in the morning, offering mangala-ārati —giving up all this nonsense habit. These are bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā , anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha means which you do not require. Just like without smoking, without drinking tea or liquor, you won't die; you have simply practiced to by bad association. *Similarly, by good association you can give it up. Just like these European, American boys, they were habituated to all these bad habits—but now they have given up. This is called anartha*-nivṛttiḥ . Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ , after that, tato niṣṭhā. Nisthā means firm faith. This firm faith is on the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa-tattvena. Otherwise you cannot have firm faith. *So you have to pass through so many stages, then you can come to the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa*-tattvena. Niṣṭhā . Tato niṣṭhā. Athāsaktis : then attachment. Athāsaktis tato bhāva : then ecstasy. Then you will get love of Kṛṣṇa. Any sādhaka who is actually trying to love God, these are the stages, kramaḥ . So you have to go through the kramaḥ pantha . Theoretically understanding will not help you. You have to take to practical life. Indian guest: Thank you very much . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is tattvena . Indian guest (4): May I ask you? Some of the students come from India, Bangladesh, and all places. So I generally come to the temple sometimes, and the other boys laugh at me that, "You come to the court of the temple," and so on. Because "You are a student, so you should worship goddess of learning." Prabhupāda: Who advises you? Indian guest (4): No, the Hindu religions. Prabhupāda: Who is that gentleman? Indian guest (4): There are goddess . . . Prabhupāda: Who is the leader of that Hindu religion? If you hear some nonsense, then that is a different thing. He is a nonsense who advise you like that. So you have to reject all this nonsense proposals. Indian guest (4): So you think that we shouldn't worship the goddess of learning? That Sarasvatī is . . . *Prabhupāda: No, if you are simply satisfied with goddess . . . learning, you can worship goddess of learning. But what your learning will do? That will not save you from the material, I mean to say, tribulations. There are so many learned scholar. Does it mean that he is not subject to birth, death, disease and old age? You become learned, but if you do not become so learned as to understand God, then what is the value of your learning? Ultimately, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : That means learning is not finished—it is still imperfect knowledge, jñānavān —unless he comes and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just like goddess of learning . . . this is a long story; it will take time. The goddess of learning, Keśava Bhāratī . . . she advised Keśava Bhāratī to . . . (break) Rather, the man who comes to the sunshine, he becomes disinfected. You follow what I said? Indian lady guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone is infected with some sinful life, so if he comes to the temple, the temple is not affected by his infection. Rather, the infected man becomes purified, sterilized. Indian lady guest: And what is a man's duty, should he do if his family is averse to Kṛṣṇa and if he wants to follow Kṛṣṇa's way? What should he do? Should he leave his family? Prabhupāda: Let him follow the Kṛṣṇa's way, that's all. That is his duty. Indian lady guest: Do his duty. Prabhupāda: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and what Kṛṣṇa says, do. That's all. That's your duty. *(break) . . . loko 'yam*-karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not work on account of Kṛṣṇa, then you become bound up by the resultant action of your karma , bad or good. Indian lady guest: Each one, Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian lady guest: Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be. Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Does Kṛṣṇa put you where He wants you to be? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa arrange for your situation in life, as if He wants it, so He makes you go there? Prabhupāda: Still I do not follow. Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . wherever Kṛṣṇa wants us to be, that is where we are. Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Our position in life is because Kṛṣṇa desires it. Prabhupāda: First you desire. I desire to become such and such, Kṛṣṇa helps me, "All right, you become such and such." Man proposes, God disposes. So if I want to become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa makes you a devotee. If you want to become a demon, Kṛṣṇa makes you a demon. So when you become a demon, He gives you facility how to act as a demon. And when you become a devotee, He gives you facility how to become a devotee. Kṛṣṇa is very kind, as you want, He also gives you facility. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). But Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up all this nonsense habit of becoming demon. You just surrender unto Me." That's Kṛṣṇa's desire. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. But we don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we surrender to our senses. Mind . . . my mind wants to do something, I do it. That's all. I don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our suffering. Just like a small child, if he obeys the order of the parents, he is happy. If he does not do so, that is another thing. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is our supreme father. If we obey Kṛṣṇa, then we are happy. If we don't obey, then you are unhappy. Is there any difficulty to understand? It is very plain thing. (break) . . . ask for them to fight, Kṛṣṇa arranged for the battle. Arjuna said: "No, I shall not fight. I shall not kill my brother and nephews on the other side." That is Arjuna's manufacturing; that is not Kṛṣṇa's manufacturing. Kṛṣṇa wanted that on the battlefield all the demons should be assembled and they should be killed. That was Kṛṣṇa's desire. *But Arjuna said: "No, they are my kinsmen. They are my brother, grandfather, nephews and son*-in-laws and so on, so on. I cannot kill." Therefore he was given lesson on Bhagavad-gītā , and he was asked at the end, "What you want to do?" Then Arjuna said: "Yes, I shall do what You are asking, that's all." That is finished, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). *This is spiritual life. We want to do something whimsically. Kṛṣṇa says something else. If we accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are perfect, and if you go on doing something whimsically, then you are suffering. But we prefer to act whimsically according to our dictation of the senses. We do not take the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our fall*-down. So our this movement is to teach people how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We are practically trying to be obedient to Kṛṣṇa, and we are preaching others also to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. Simple thing. And how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa? That is also stated: *You come to the temple, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, offer your obeisances, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto : "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says: "Just become My devotee, offer your obeisances to Me, and your coming back to Me is guaranteed." That's all. Very simple thing. If anyone wants to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is very simple. This is the formula; anyone can accept it. If not, if he wants to understand through philosophy, science, everything, there are books, three dozen books he can read. So where is Kṣīrodakśāyī? He wants to . . . Śyāmasundara: The meeting starts at seven, so he isn't here yet. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Śyāmasundara: I don't think he is here yet. It is only twenty*-five past six. *Prabhupāda: Seven? Half*-past seven? *Śyāmasundara: No, the meeting starts at seven. Now it is twenty*-five past six. Prabhupāda: Six. Oh. That's fine. Śyāmasundara: Would you like to rest or take anything before? Prabhupāda: No, no. It's all right. English guest: Your Grace? Must your chanting always be audible? I ask this, because I was chanting in the train. The train makes a noise. Now, I am surrounded by people. Prabhupāda: No? English guest: I can chant audibly? Prabhupāda: Audible . . . if you chant even silently, it is also audible. You have to turn your attention, is it not? English guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Audible, if you don't make any sound, still it is audible. Śyāmasundara: We hear it. English guest: Would it be a good thing to chant audibly on a train full of people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? They will also hear. They will be benefited. Yes. Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do that. What to speak of human being, even animals, the insect, trees, if they hear, they will be benefited. It is so nice. (aside as guests enter) Aiye. Ācchā. (Please come. Okay.) Jaya . Whoever hears, he will be benefited. Just like sunshine—anyone comes in the sunshine, he will be benefited. Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . some people hears it . . . why do some people hear (break) . . . (indistinct) . . .? Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Some people do not like when they hear the mantra . Why is that? *Prabhupāda: They are unfortunate, narādhama . That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This is the description: miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind. This is their title. *Anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he comes to either of these groups—miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind—I mean to say, taken all knowledge. All these descriptions are there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *So anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can very easily estimate their value on this group: miscreants, rascals, lowest of the mankind, and robbed of the knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Maybe they have some academic degrees, but actual knowledge has been taken away by māyā—māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This is their position. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Don't think it very sectarian, but it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no good qualification. He cannot have. Śyāmasundara: Today I had a discussion with a Jewish man in the doctor's office. He said that Christ said in the Bible that . . . he was talking to someone, and he said that, "The beggars . . . don't think you are any better than the beggar or the prostitute." And he wanted to know what the meaning of this was. So I pointed that same thing out, that unless you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, you have no good qualities, whether you are a rich man or a beggar or anything. Prabhupāda: Narādhamāḥ . Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . if Kṛṣṇa knew the ending of the war, why did Arjuna have to fight and kill? Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa is not nonviolent, bogus nonviolent. When there is necessity of fight, there must be fight. Kṛṣṇa has got two mission: *He is calm and merciful to the devotees, and He has to kill the nondevotees. But because He is absolute, either He loves or kills, the effect is the same. That is absolute. Therefore God is good, all*-good. In any circumstances He is good. Even if He kills, the person who is killed, he immediately gets salvation, mukti . English guest: Your Grace, in The *Nectar of Devotion* , in the Introduction, there was an account of Lord Caitanya and a disciple of His, and while he was in the presence of Lord Caitanya, he cast a lustful glance at a woman, and Lord Caitanya rejected him. And afterwards His disciples came to Him and said: "Please forgive this disciple." And Lord Caitanya said: "You may go and forgive him and go and live with him, and I will stay alone." Afterwards, the young man committed suicide, and when Lord Caitanya, who knows everything, said: "It is good. It is very good," this makes me very afraid of committing, in a moment of forgetfulness, a mistake like this. Prabhupāda: The thing is that Lord Caitanya did not like hypocrisy. One should not . . . one should be very much alert against becoming a hypocrite. So this Choṭa Haridāsa, he proved to be a hypocrite. Therefore He was so strict. English guest: What became of him after he committed suicide? Prabhupāda: He went to Vaikuṇṭha. English guest: Went to? Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was Lord Caitanya's associate. English guest: I see. Prabhupāda: He, by mistake, he fallen down. Caitanya Mahāprabhu punished him. But that does not mean he would not go to Vaikuṇṭha. He would go. Just like father punishes his son, that does not mean he is not admitted in the home. So that was an exemplary punishment for the hypocrites, because this Choṭa Haridāsa was in renounced order of life. So for a person who has renounced this world, so even glancing over a woman with lust is also not allowed. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha s devotee, He was very kind. But gṛhastha is not hypocrite. Anyone who has got wife, it is understood he has sex life; so there is no hypocrisy. So one who poses himself, "I am sannyāsī , I am this, I am that," and within heart he is thinking of woman, that is hypocrisy. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not like. English guest: That story is there as a warning for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. For anyone. If you have desire to enjoy, then don't become a sannyāsī , brahmacārī . You become a married man, live peacefully with wife and children. That is allowed. English guest: I see. Prabhupāda: But don't become a hypocrite and live like a brahmacārī and think of women. This hypocrisy is like that. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's stricture. That "Why you are a hypocrisy?" In spiritual life hypocrisy is the worst qualification. Yes. There are four āśramas—brahmacārī āśrama , gṛhastha āśrama , vānaprastha āśrama , sannyāsa āśrama . So you gradually accept the āśramas and prepare yourself for the final . . . (indistinct) But if you stay in one āśrama , you don't become hypocrite in relationship to that āśrama . You do it perfectly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's majority of devotees were gṛhasthas , householder. He was Himself householder. He married twice. But that does not mean when He took sannyāsa He would see His wife. No. That is not allowed. Indian lady guest: I thought that when you commit suicide you deny yourself to Vaikuṇṭha. Is that correct? . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: (explaining) She said if a person commits suicide, he is denied . . . Prabhupāda: Not ordinary person. Just like a person playing in the theatrical stage, he commits suicide, but next moment he goes at home. (laughter) But on the stage he commits suicide. So when Kṛṣṇa comes along with His associates to preach something, so they play like ordinary man, but they are not ordinary men. *All associates of God, they are not ordinary men. Nitya*-siddha : they are eternally perfect. They are eternally perfect. But because God comes to teach us, so His associates also. Just like all the Kṛṣṇa's wifes were kidnapped when Kṛṣṇa departed. Arjuna was bringing them, and they were forcibly taken away by some ruffians. But the purpose was that they came to associate with Kṛṣṇa, so long Kṛṣṇa is here; then they also went to their respective planets. This song is sung by Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura: Śyāmasundara: I'll see if Kṣīrodakśāyī is there downstairs? Prabhupāda: Hmm yes. Let them come. (break) . . . such. That means you are all gentlemen. (laughter) But not a single gentleman. It is to be supposed everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . that means they are not a single gentleman. Aiye . . . (indistinct) . . . (Come . . . (indistinct) . . .) (aside to devotee) You can bring one notebook so that all the gentlemen present, they can leave their names and addresses. (break) . . . movement there is a great potency. Do you realize or not? Indian guest: Of course we do. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is great potency, everywhere. So why not combinedly push on this movement? That is my request. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35). Eh? The Bible society, the Christian missionaries, they spend crores of rupees, but here, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, by one man's attempt it has come to such an extent. Why not combine? What is your opinion about this? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Prāṇa , artha , buddhir , vācā . Śyāmasundara: Should I give a short summary of the activities around the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: In the last year or so it has become increasingly apparent, especially in the West, to all people who have an eye out for these things, that this particular spiritual movement is coming to the forefront of all other spiritual movements in the whole world at this time. It will be the religion of the future, so to speak, especially among the young people. *Of all the movements that have begun in the 50's, 60's, 70's, this movement stands out as the one that is progressing more rapidly and more deep*-rootedly than any other in the whole world, so far as spiritual culture is concerned. We saw on our last world tour, all the way from Africa to India to Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Hawaii . . . everywhere we have got our centers . . . Prabhupāda: Even in Moscow. Śyāmasundara: Even in Moscow we have a half a dozen devotees, Russian boys, who have given up everything . . . Prabhupāda: They are very much suppressed by the government; otherwise the young men are very much eager to take. Śyāmasundara: Despite all difficulties they are chanting sixteen rounds a day, they have stopped eating meat in a country which is practically impossible to find any fruits and vegetables, and gradually our devotees are working there. So everywhere we have been, we have seen this revolution taking place. Beyond any doubt now it comes out that this movement is growing in proportions that no one would have believed a few years back, but which now must be recognized by every intelligent man to be the most powerful force of its kind in the whole world today, because it is genuine, it is authoritative, it is scientific, it is not sentimental or fashionable, but Prabhupāda has made no compromise, any trends of the modern times. He is simply presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is, and because of this is that it is having effect, which has now proven itself all over the world. *So we have seen now there are over a hundred centers, each center like this one. You can go from one center to the next, and you will find the same things going on—the same ārati , the same kīrtana , the same prasāda being served, the same rising early at three*-thirty, four o'clock, the same cleanliness, the same standard is being maintained in a hundred different places around the world, without any formal organization. This is a great . . . industrialists marvel as how Prabhupāda has been able to organize in five years' time a worldwide organization with one hundred branches in which everything is going on smoothly and expansively in every center. So we understand this is because the sincerity of the devotees, and Prabhupāda has been able to instill the philosophy, Vedic philosophy, so that we follow it, and . . . Prabhupāda: Mr. Parik knows how in London it was humbly bigger; they had no place. Now gradually how . . . Mr. Parik: Yes. Within five years' time by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and by your efforts, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: It has got great potency. Now let us have a nice center in London. That is my proposal. Śyāmasundara: London is the world's center. *Prabhupāda: First*-class center. This so important city, and we have no first-class center. Why? There are so many Indians, so many oppos . . . even other . . . those who are opposite, it is open to everyone. We don't make such distinction, that "Hindu," "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Parsi." No. Everyone is welcome. So people are accepting. Now let us have . . . this place is very small. Let us have a very big state temple. What is the difficulty? Mr. Parik: There is more poten . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa, not Kṛṣṇa's money. (laughter) That is taken by Rāvaṇa. (laughter) Just like Sītā belonged to Rāma, but it was taken by Rāma, er . . . Rāvaṇa. And that is . . . and Hanumān become perplexed. So we are perplexed that Rāma . . . Sītā has been taken by Rāvaṇa, and so we are trying to rescue her. *And that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Sītā-Lakṣmījī, eh? Rāmacandra*-Lord Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. So Rāvaṇa thought that, "Let me make profit taking away Sītā." The result was that he became vanquished with everything. He could not get the favor of Sītā, but the whole family, whole kingdom became vanquished. So this policy is being followed at the present moment. Everybody is interested with Sītā, not with Rāma. You see? But the foolish people do not know that without Rāma you cannot keep Sītā. You see? That is happening. When you go to ask for some money in India, they give us one thousand, two thousand. And when there is war within Pakistan and Hindustan, somebody is giving fifty lakhs , somebody is giving hundred lakhs . And what is being used? Namo "bombayah" namaḥ. "Bombayah." *So if you don't spend for Rāma, then you will have to spend for bomb, that's all. You cannot keep the money. That is the way of nature. That, "I want to keep money"—that is illusion. You cannot keep. It will be spoiled. If you don't spend for Kṛṣṇa, then it will be spoiled for some other purpose. Therefore so long as we have got money, let us spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is real savings. That is real savings. There is a verse, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer ( SB 1.5.17). That verse is very nice. Hmm? Where is it? *Dhanañjaya: Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (break) *Evaṁ tāvat tat karma*-karmādi anartha-hetutva taṁ vihāya harer līlāiva bandhaniya tam . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary) Nārada Muni is advising that if one gives up his prescribed duty, sva-dharmaṁ . . . tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ. Sva-dharmaṁ means occupation. According to Vedic thought, occupation means brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra—guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now we have got somebody is businessman, somebody is lawyer, somebody is engineer, somebody is something. So somehow or other, everybody has got some prescribed duty or occupation. *So here it is advised, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann : even one gives up his prescribed duty and takes shelter of Hari, Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann. Now if one executes devotional service after taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, that is all right—but even if he falls down, and in immature stage, the Bhagavat says, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ : "What is the loss there?" Just try to understand. Even if he falls down . . . because there are so many strict rules and regulation. If one follows the rules and regulation, and the devotional . . . avyabhicāreṇa bhakti . So even if he becomes avyabhicāreṇa , broken, and he may be not successful in one life, but Nārada Muni says—this is the word of Nārada Muni—says: "Then what is the loss there?" *But if one is engaged in his occupational duty very perfectly but he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then what is his gain? This is the question. Ko vārtha āpto : what does he gain, abhajatāṁ , if he is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, sva*-dharmataḥ , but he is fixed up in his prescribed duties? So we have to understand this important verse, that we may be very faithfully discharging our duties as a family man, as a community man, as a nationalist, as a businessman or this or that perfectly, but if we do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no gain—it is simply waste of time. This is the verdict. On the other hand, one gives up the occupational duties, prescribed duties, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even if he does not advance perfectly—if he falls down—there is no loss. Here this man sticking to his prescribed duty does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no gain. On the other hand, a man gives up his prescribed duty, takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness but does not make it perfect—falls down—he has no loss. Try to understand. So Śrīdhara Svāmī remarks on this, nānusvadharma tyāgena bhajana bhakti paripakena yadi kṛtārtho bhavet tadā na kadācit cintā . All right, one has given up his prescribed duty and he is engaged in devotional service. That's very nice; there is no question. But yadi punar apakva eva mriyate . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary). There is no anartha , no anartha . There is no anartha ; still he is gainer. The thing is that this man who has given up his prescribed duties and taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even he falls down, whatever percentage he has executed, it goes with him, whereas in ordinary work, suppose you are a businessman, you have accumulated millions of dollars in the bank—when you go, the money remains in the bank; *you go empty*-handed. Śyāmasundara: Death duties . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have worked so hard for this millions of dollars—it is all lost. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham (BG 10.34): "I am death, and as death I take away everything." *So the purport is that whether I accumulate millions of dollars, and at the time of my death it remains in the bank and I go empty*-handed, and according to my karma I take another birth, may be human being or cats and dogs—that is a different thing—but whatever I have accumulated here, that remains here—it does not go with me. *But this devotional service, whatever you have executed, even if it is not fulfilled cent percent, even it is ten percent or fifteen percent, that ten percent, fifteen percent or fifty percent goes with you, and next life you get a chance for begin either from fifty*-one percent or sixteen percent, as you have . . . But all other material assets, that you cannot take. Therefore the conclusion is that so long we have got some strength, intelligence, money, it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that it will go with us. Indian guest: Swami, could you explain in simple words what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Explain what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Indian guest: Yes, in simple . . . Prabhupāda: You explain, Revatīnandana Mahārāja. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to understand first of all that I am not this body; that this body is born, this body dies, but I am not this body. I am an eternal spirit, jīvātmā , and I am living in this body. Then when this body is finished, I will go out of this body. And whatever is my desire at death, whatever is my work in this life, I will get another body in that condition. It will go on like this. *But the solution how to get the eternal soul out of the cycle of birth and death is to understand that the spirit soul, the jīvātmā , is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. In the Fourth Chapter of Kṛṣṇa's Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "When you have seen the truth, you will see that all these living beings are My parts and parcels. They are in Me, and they are Mine." (BG 4.35) And Kṛṣṇa says that these part and parcels are all eternal. They are eternal entities; they are actually associates of Kṛṣṇa. We have forgotten this. Now to revive my relationship with Kṛṣṇa, the part and parcel serves the whole. Just like the part of the hand . . . the part of the body is the hand. The hand must take foods and must put the foodstuff to the mouth and into the stomach; then the hand is nourished. If the hand tries to enjoy the food separately, that will be frustration, there will be no benefit. But the part and parcel, the hand, must serve the whole body. Similarly, we part and parcel entities are, by nature, we are servants of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are serving boss, country, family, and if we have nothing else to serve we serve a dog or a cat. But we are always a servant. Service is part of our nature. That is the thing you cannot change. We are all servants. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that I am not anymore serving on this bodily platform but I am serving as a spirit, and the spirit is meant to serve God, to serve Kṛṣṇa. *So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become conscious that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. It's His energies. I am part of His energies. Therefore every energy should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. My business is to offer it. This is called bhakti*-yoga . This is what we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one understands, begins to act on that principle, then he is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The result is that he purifies his existence. Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman, Supreme Spirit. When you link with Kṛṣṇa you are purified, and you realize, "I am spirit soul," and even before quitting this body you are seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere in that pure state. Then automatically in that state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even this body is dying . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "One who is always fixed his mind on Me can know and remember Me even at the time of death." (Bg 8.5) And thus you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa—that is your desire, for Kṛṣṇa—you take birth in His eternal abode, which is called Vaikuṇṭha, or actually Goloka Vṛndāvana. So to . . . Prabhupāda: Indian guest: Where to fix our attention then these days? To "fix the attention in Me" means . . . what does He means by "Me"? Prabhupāda: What do you mean? What do you mean? Indian guest: That . . . at the time of death. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "Me"? Indian guest: "Me" means . . . at this junction, there is nothing. Prabhupāda: If I say: "Give me a glass of water," what do I mean by this? Indian guest: Yes. Do you mean this body? I don't think you mean that body. There is something else in me, so for the bodily person, if it is not explained properly . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore, bodily person, this education is being imparted, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul." Now, at this present moment, when I speak in my bodily concept of life, "Give me a glass of water," that water is needed for my body. Indian guest: The soul is not to be seen, so what can a man, by dying, fix his attention or ātmā , in what? It is not to be seen. And nirākāra , there is a God, we cannot see it. So could it be made clear in worldly words to which a man, by dying . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot see . . . you cannot see so many things. That does not mean that things are not existing. You cannot see what is beyond this wall. Indian guest: So . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Your seeing power is very defective. So this is not a argument, that because you cannot see, there is no soul. That is not good argument. You cannot see beyond this wall. That does not mean there is nothing beyond this wall. *Your seeing power is defective. So you cannot see so many things—but you can hear. Just like beyond this wall, who knows? He can say: "Beyond this wall there is another house, belongs to Mr. Such*-and-such." He can say. So you can understand what is beyond this wall by hearing, not by seeing. Similarly, you see there is no soul, but you can hear from Kṛṣṇa there is soul. Kṛṣṇa says: So you have to hear from Kṛṣṇa. Why do you believe on your seeing power? You are so defective, and still you are believing on your seeing power. Your argument is, "I cannot see." But what is the value of your seeing? Why don't you consider in that way? Indian guest: There are so many arguments . . . Prabhupāda: Your seeing is worthless. First of all you have to admit that. You cannot say, "Because I do not see, there is no existence." This is not argument. Indian guest: I am not arguing. I am trying to understand it, because I have . . . I want to understand it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now you understand that I say that just like nobody sees where is the soul. Birth, one can perceive—that is the education. Just like a man dies, his relatives cry, "Oh, my father gone. My father gone." Why your father is dying? See your father. You have seen your father, this body. Why you are crying? What is your answer? You have seen all along this body is your father. Why you are crying, "My father is gone, my father is gone"? Why? Indian guest: That is why I ask—that is it cannot be seen . . . Prabhupāda: That means that you have not seen your father, so long you have . . . Indian guest: You have to be fixed up, fix the attention while dying. That is my question . . . Indian guest (2): Can I answer, Swami? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: Yes, you can answer. *Indian guest (2): For us, Kṛṣṇa is not just airy. His personality is as real as you and I are real. So when the attention is to be fixed, it is to be fixed on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa Himself—Kṛṣṇa with physical body, Kṛṣṇa as you see in the temple down below, Kṛṣṇa as described by Bhagavad*-gītā and described by Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Indian guest (2): Fix the attention on Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. *Indian guest (2): . . . Kṛṣṇa in His personalized form, and you will never go wrong. So while dying, fix your attention on Kṛṣṇa. And you can only do it if throughout your life if Kṛṣṇa's name is on your tongue. If for twenty*-four hours if you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, at the time of your death, His name will automatically come. Prabhupāda: His name and He are not different. Indian guest (2): He and His name, Swāmījī has taught us, not different. For any other thing, the object and its name are different. But for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's name is the same thing as Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: There is one more question, Swāmījī . . . (indistinct) . . . in *Gītā* it is said several times that ye bhajanti tattve. Tattve. What does it mean? How can you explain tattve ? Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . T*-a-t-t-v-e. I just want only to understand this. I don't want to ask you a question. I tell you very frankly. I want to ask a question to understand when in twenty-fourth verse of Ninth Chapter, which says: Tattven . . . this example, tattven ? Prabhupāda: Tattvena . Tattvena means "in truth." Tattvena means "in truth." In truth, what is actually Kṛṣṇa, that is called tattvena . So that can be understood, Kṛṣṇa explains: *That tattvena you can understand by bhakti . Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . So you have to take to the bhakti*-yoga; then you will understand what is tattvena . Indian guest (3): Why? Indian guest: If one is ignorant, what is the way of reaching that stage, when he can understand . . .? *Prabhupāda: Yes. First thing is śraddhā . Just like you are asking question: śraddhā , faith. Just like anyone who is coming to us, he has got some little faith. But that is the beginning— ādau śraddhā. Śraddhā means, "It is very nice. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice. Let us try to understand what it is." This is called śraddhā . Then next stage is ādau śraddhā tato sādhu*-saṅgo (CC Madhya 23.14), Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). *Then next stage, if you are serious about this, to understand kṛṣṇa*-tattvena , then you must associate with persons who are actually kṛṣṇa-bhakta. Just like if you want to learn some business, you go to the association of that business society. You see? First of all you are interested, "I learn this business. I want to learn this business." All right, then you go to the society, stock exchange society, this society, banker's society, all this—you learn. *First of all this intention: śraddhā . Then sādhu*-saṅga. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgo. Sat-saṅga . Then bhajana-kriyā. Then as they are executing devotional service—they are rising early in the morning, having mangala-ārati , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , reading books, taking prasāda , going to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness—these are called bhajana-kriyā . Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt : then things which are blocking you to understand kṛṣṇa-tattvena , that will be finished. That means anartha . Just like we prohibit our students not to have illicit sex; not to drink or any intoxication, up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; *no meat*-eating. *So these are within the bhajana*-kriyā. Early rising early in the morning, offering mangala-ārati —giving up all this nonsense habit. These are bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā , anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha means which you do not require. Just like without smoking, without drinking tea or liquor, you won't die; you have simply practiced to by bad association. *Similarly, by good association you can give it up. Just like these European, American boys, they were habituated to all these bad habits—but now they have given up. This is called anartha*-nivṛttiḥ . Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ , after that, tato niṣṭhā. Nisthā means firm faith. This firm faith is on the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa-tattvena. Otherwise you cannot have firm faith. *So you have to pass through so many stages, then you can come to the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa*-tattvena. Niṣṭhā . Tato niṣṭhā. Athāsaktis : then attachment. Athāsaktis tato bhāva : then ecstasy. Then you will get love of Kṛṣṇa. Any sādhaka who is actually trying to love God, these are the stages, kramaḥ . So you have to go through the kramaḥ pantha . Theoretically understanding will not help you. You have to take to practical life. Indian guest: Thank you very much . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is tattvena . Indian guest (4): May I ask you? Some of the students come from India, Bangladesh, and all places. So I generally come to the temple sometimes, and the other boys laugh at me that, "You come to the court of the temple," and so on. Because "You are a student, so you should worship goddess of learning." Prabhupāda: Who advises you? Indian guest (4): No, the Hindu religions. Prabhupāda: Who is that gentleman? Indian guest (4): There are goddess . . . Prabhupāda: Who is the leader of that Hindu religion? If you hear some nonsense, then that is a different thing. He is a nonsense who advise you like that. So you have to reject all this nonsense proposals. Indian guest (4): So you think that we shouldn't worship the goddess of learning? That Sarasvatī is . . . *Prabhupāda: No, if you are simply satisfied with goddess . . . learning, you can worship goddess of learning. But what your learning will do? That will not save you from the material, I mean to say, tribulations. There are so many learned scholar. Does it mean that he is not subject to birth, death, disease and old age? You become learned, but if you do not become so learned as to understand God, then what is the value of your learning? Ultimately, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : That means learning is not finished—it is still imperfect knowledge, jñānavān —unless he comes and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just like goddess of learning . . . this is a long story; it will take time. The goddess of learning, Keśava Bhāratī . . . she advised Keśava Bhāratī to . . . (break) Rather, the man who comes to the sunshine, he becomes disinfected. You follow what I said? Indian lady guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone is infected with some sinful life, so if he comes to the temple, the temple is not affected by his infection. Rather, the infected man becomes purified, sterilized. Indian lady guest: And what is a man's duty, should he do if his family is averse to Kṛṣṇa and if he wants to follow Kṛṣṇa's way? What should he do? Should he leave his family? Prabhupāda: Let him follow the Kṛṣṇa's way, that's all. That is his duty. Indian lady guest: Do his duty. Prabhupāda: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and what Kṛṣṇa says, do. That's all. That's your duty. *(break) . . . loko 'yam*-karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not work on account of Kṛṣṇa, then you become bound up by the resultant action of your karma , bad or good. Indian lady guest: Each one, Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian lady guest: Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be. Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Does Kṛṣṇa put you where He wants you to be? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa arrange for your situation in life, as if He wants it, so He makes you go there? Prabhupāda: Still I do not follow. Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . wherever Kṛṣṇa wants us to be, that is where we are. Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Our position in life is because Kṛṣṇa desires it. Prabhupāda: First you desire. I desire to become such and such, Kṛṣṇa helps me, "All right, you become such and such." Man proposes, God disposes. So if I want to become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa makes you a devotee. If you want to become a demon, Kṛṣṇa makes you a demon. So when you become a demon, He gives you facility how to act as a demon. And when you become a devotee, He gives you facility how to become a devotee. Kṛṣṇa is very kind, as you want, He also gives you facility. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). But Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up all this nonsense habit of becoming demon. You just surrender unto Me." That's Kṛṣṇa's desire. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. But we don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we surrender to our senses. Mind . . . my mind wants to do something, I do it. That's all. I don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our suffering. Just like a small child, if he obeys the order of the parents, he is happy. If he does not do so, that is another thing. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is our supreme father. If we obey Kṛṣṇa, then we are happy. If we don't obey, then you are unhappy. Is there any difficulty to understand? It is very plain thing. (break) . . . ask for them to fight, Kṛṣṇa arranged for the battle. Arjuna said: "No, I shall not fight. I shall not kill my brother and nephews on the other side." That is Arjuna's manufacturing; that is not Kṛṣṇa's manufacturing. Kṛṣṇa wanted that on the battlefield all the demons should be assembled and they should be killed. That was Kṛṣṇa's desire. *But Arjuna said: "No, they are my kinsmen. They are my brother, grandfather, nephews and son*-in-laws and so on, so on. I cannot kill." Therefore he was given lesson on Bhagavad-gītā , and he was asked at the end, "What you want to do?" Then Arjuna said: "Yes, I shall do what You are asking, that's all." That is finished, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). *This is spiritual life. We want to do something whimsically. Kṛṣṇa says something else. If we accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are perfect, and if you go on doing something whimsically, then you are suffering. But we prefer to act whimsically according to our dictation of the senses. We do not take the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our fall*-down. So our this movement is to teach people how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We are practically trying to be obedient to Kṛṣṇa, and we are preaching others also to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. Simple thing. And how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa? That is also stated: *You come to the temple, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, offer your obeisances, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto : "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says: "Just become My devotee, offer your obeisances to Me, and your coming back to Me is guaranteed." That's all. Very simple thing. If anyone wants to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is very simple. This is the formula; anyone can accept it. If not, if he wants to understand through philosophy, science, everything, there are books, three dozen books he can read. So where is Kṣīrodakśāyī? He wants to . . . Śyāmasundara: The meeting starts at seven, so he isn't here yet. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Śyāmasundara: I don't think he is here yet. It is only twenty*-five past six. *Prabhupāda: Seven? Half*-past seven? *Śyāmasundara: No, the meeting starts at seven. Now it is twenty*-five past six. Prabhupāda: Six. Oh. That's fine. Śyāmasundara: Would you like to rest or take anything before? Prabhupāda: No, no. It's all right. English guest: Your Grace? Must your chanting always be audible? I ask this, because I was chanting in the train. The train makes a noise. Now, I am surrounded by people. Prabhupāda: No? English guest: I can chant audibly? Prabhupāda: Audible . . . if you chant even silently, it is also audible. You have to turn your attention, is it not? English guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Audible, if you don't make any sound, still it is audible. Śyāmasundara: We hear it. English guest: Would it be a good thing to chant audibly on a train full of people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? They will also hear. They will be benefited. Yes. Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do that. What to speak of human being, even animals, the insect, trees, if they hear, they will be benefited. It is so nice. (aside as guests enter) Aiye. Ācchā. (Please come. Okay.) Jaya . Whoever hears, he will be benefited. Just like sunshine—anyone comes in the sunshine, he will be benefited. Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . some people hears it . . . why do some people hear (break) . . . (indistinct) . . .? Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Some people do not like when they hear the mantra . Why is that? *Prabhupāda: They are unfortunate, narādhama . That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This is the description: miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind. This is their title. *Anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he comes to either of these groups—miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind—I mean to say, taken all knowledge. All these descriptions are there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *So anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can very easily estimate their value on this group: miscreants, rascals, lowest of the mankind, and robbed of the knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Maybe they have some academic degrees, but actual knowledge has been taken away by māyā—māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This is their position. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Don't think it very sectarian, but it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no good qualification. He cannot have. Śyāmasundara: Today I had a discussion with a Jewish man in the doctor's office. He said that Christ said in the Bible that . . . he was talking to someone, and he said that, "The beggars . . . don't think you are any better than the beggar or the prostitute." And he wanted to know what the meaning of this was. So I pointed that same thing out, that unless you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, you have no good qualities, whether you are a rich man or a beggar or anything. Prabhupāda: Narādhamāḥ . Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . if Kṛṣṇa knew the ending of the war, why did Arjuna have to fight and kill? Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa is not nonviolent, bogus nonviolent. When there is necessity of fight, there must be fight. Kṛṣṇa has got two mission: *He is calm and merciful to the devotees, and He has to kill the nondevotees. But because He is absolute, either He loves or kills, the effect is the same. That is absolute. Therefore God is good, all*-good. In any circumstances He is good. Even if He kills, the person who is killed, he immediately gets salvation, mukti . English guest: Your Grace, in The *Nectar of Devotion* , in the Introduction, there was an account of Lord Caitanya and a disciple of His, and while he was in the presence of Lord Caitanya, he cast a lustful glance at a woman, and Lord Caitanya rejected him. And afterwards His disciples came to Him and said: "Please forgive this disciple." And Lord Caitanya said: "You may go and forgive him and go and live with him, and I will stay alone." Afterwards, the young man committed suicide, and when Lord Caitanya, who knows everything, said: "It is good. It is very good," this makes me very afraid of committing, in a moment of forgetfulness, a mistake like this. Prabhupāda: The thing is that Lord Caitanya did not like hypocrisy. One should not . . . one should be very much alert against becoming a hypocrite. So this Choṭa Haridāsa, he proved to be a hypocrite. Therefore He was so strict. English guest: What became of him after he committed suicide? Prabhupāda: He went to Vaikuṇṭha. English guest: Went to? Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was Lord Caitanya's associate. English guest: I see. Prabhupāda: He, by mistake, he fallen down. Caitanya Mahāprabhu punished him. But that does not mean he would not go to Vaikuṇṭha. He would go. Just like father punishes his son, that does not mean he is not admitted in the home. So that was an exemplary punishment for the hypocrites, because this Choṭa Haridāsa was in renounced order of life. So for a person who has renounced this world, so even glancing over a woman with lust is also not allowed. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha s devotee, He was very kind. But gṛhastha is not hypocrite. Anyone who has got wife, it is understood he has sex life; so there is no hypocrisy. So one who poses himself, "I am sannyāsī , I am this, I am that," and within heart he is thinking of woman, that is hypocrisy. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not like. English guest: That story is there as a warning for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. For anyone. If you have desire to enjoy, then don't become a sannyāsī , brahmacārī . You become a married man, live peacefully with wife and children. That is allowed. English guest: I see. Prabhupāda: But don't become a hypocrite and live like a brahmacārī and think of women. This hypocrisy is like that. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's stricture. That "Why you are a hypocrisy?" In spiritual life hypocrisy is the worst qualification. Yes. There are four āśramas—brahmacārī āśrama , gṛhastha āśrama , vānaprastha āśrama , sannyāsa āśrama . So you gradually accept the āśramas and prepare yourself for the final . . . (indistinct) But if you stay in one āśrama , you don't become hypocrite in relationship to that āśrama . You do it perfectly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's majority of devotees were gṛhasthas , householder. He was Himself householder. He married twice. But that does not mean when He took sannyāsa He would see His wife. No. That is not allowed. Indian lady guest: I thought that when you commit suicide you deny yourself to Vaikuṇṭha. Is that correct? . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: (explaining) She said if a person commits suicide, he is denied . . . Prabhupāda: Not ordinary person. Just like a person playing in the theatrical stage, he commits suicide, but next moment he goes at home. (laughter) But on the stage he commits suicide. So when Kṛṣṇa comes along with His associates to preach something, so they play like ordinary man, but they are not ordinary men. *All associates of God, they are not ordinary men. Nitya*-siddha : they are eternally perfect. They are eternally perfect. But because God comes to teach us, so His associates also. Just like all the Kṛṣṇa's wifes were kidnapped when Kṛṣṇa departed. Arjuna was bringing them, and they were forcibly taken away by some ruffians. But the purpose was that they came to associate with Kṛṣṇa, so long Kṛṣṇa is here; then they also went to their respective planets. This song is sung by Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura: Śyāmasundara: I'll see if Kṣīrodakśāyī is there downstairs? Prabhupāda: Hmm yes. Let them come. (break) . . . such. That means you are all gentlemen. (laughter) But not a single gentleman. It is to be supposed everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . that means they are not a single gentleman. Aiye . . . (indistinct) . . . (Come . . . (indistinct) . . .) (aside to devotee) You can bring one notebook so that all the gentlemen present, they can leave their names and addresses. (break) . . . movement there is a great potency. Do you realize or not? Indian guest: Of course we do. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is great potency, everywhere. So why not combinedly push on this movement? That is my request. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35). Eh? The Bible society, the Christian missionaries, they spend crores of rupees, but here, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, by one man's attempt it has come to such an extent. Why not combine? What is your opinion about this? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Prāṇa , artha , buddhir , vācā . Śyāmasundara: Should I give a short summary of the activities around the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: In the last year or so it has become increasingly apparent, especially in the West, to all people who have an eye out for these things, that this particular spiritual movement is coming to the forefront of all other spiritual movements in the whole world at this time. It will be the religion of the future, so to speak, especially among the young people. *Of all the movements that have begun in the 50's, 60's, 70's, this movement stands out as the one that is progressing more rapidly and more deep*-rootedly than any other in the whole world, so far as spiritual culture is concerned. We saw on our last world tour, all the way from Africa to India to Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Hawaii . . . everywhere we have got our centers . . . Prabhupāda: Even in Moscow. Śyāmasundara: Even in Moscow we have a half a dozen devotees, Russian boys, who have given up everything . . . Prabhupāda: They are very much suppressed by the government; otherwise the young men are very much eager to take. Śyāmasundara: Despite all difficulties they are chanting sixteen rounds a day, they have stopped eating meat in a country which is practically impossible to find any fruits and vegetables, and gradually our devotees are working there. So everywhere we have been, we have seen this revolution taking place. Beyond any doubt now it comes out that this movement is growing in proportions that no one would have believed a few years back, but which now must be recognized by every intelligent man to be the most powerful force of its kind in the whole world today, because it is genuine, it is authoritative, it is scientific, it is not sentimental or fashionable, but Prabhupāda has made no compromise, any trends of the modern times. He is simply presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is, and because of this is that it is having effect, which has now proven itself all over the world. *So we have seen now there are over a hundred centers, each center like this one. You can go from one center to the next, and you will find the same things going on—the same ārati , the same kīrtana , the same prasāda being served, the same rising early at three*-thirty, four o'clock, the same cleanliness, the same standard is being maintained in a hundred different places around the world, without any formal organization. This is a great . . . industrialists marvel as how Prabhupāda has been able to organize in five years' time a worldwide organization with one hundred branches in which everything is going on smoothly and expansively in every center. So we understand this is because the sincerity of the devotees, and Prabhupāda has been able to instill the philosophy, Vedic philosophy, so that we follow it, and . . . Prabhupāda: Mr. Parik knows how in London it was humbly bigger; they had no place. Now gradually how . . . Mr. Parik: Yes. Within five years' time by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and by your efforts, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: It has got great potency. Now let us have a nice center in London. That is my proposal. Śyāmasundara: London is the world's center. *Prabhupāda: First*-class center. This so important city, and we have no first-class center. Why? There are so many Indians, so many oppos . . . even other . . . those who are opposite, it is open to everyone. We don't make such distinction, that "Hindu," "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Parsi." No. Everyone is welcome. So people are accepting. Now let us have . . . this place is very small. Let us have a very big state temple. What is the difficulty? Mr. Parik: There is more poten . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 8, 1972, London Prabhupāda: Read our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . You will get so many ideas of preaching about Caitanya. (break) . . . analysis of the social structure of human society. People do not know it, how to make this social structure. There must be brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra . Simply one class, śūdra class, laborer class, will not make perfect. Guest: You can see it yourself. It's perfectly true. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: This country, at the moment my lord . . . with everyone trying to be equal, it just doesn't work. Prabhupāda: No. How you can make it work? You require a head and tail also. We cannot make head and tail equal. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Simply head will not do, simply tail will not do. We require head and tail both. Then it will be beautiful. So it is actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is solution of all problems. Thinking, thoughtful men should come forward, study it, and try to introduce it in the human society. Otherwise, this piling of bricks and stones will not help. Guest: There is so much wickedness in the world, my lord, I fear that if you try to force anything good, it will be rejected every time. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. (pause) How long I spoke? Śyāmasundara: Nearly one hour. About fifty minutes. Guest: Fantastic. Prabhupāda: So practically there was no question that upstart boy only (laughing). Made some question that had no value. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: And the reply was appropriate. Śyāmasundara: Very. He said that he was hearing blasphemy and this and that, so he got what he deserved. Prabhupāda: Blasphemy? Śyāmasundara: He said, yes, he said he had . . . that he thought you were blaspheming God. Prabhupāda: Blasphemy, why? Śyāmasundara: Who knows? According to the Christian point of view, he said. Guest: I wonder what sort of Christian he was. Devotee (1): No Christian. Guest: No, this is it. That is the whole point, isn't it. Devotee (1): Christian by name, and demon by activities. Guest: Yeah. There's a . . . there's two sects in London which fascinate me. I mean, one is called The Pillar of Fire Society, and nobody's ever been able to find out what they mean. And the other is the Limited . . . *The Plymouth Brethren, and they're so . . . the Inner Circle of The Plymouth Brethren. You have to be born into this. This seems to be so stupid. They're so tight, so tight*-reined on, on, on their thinking that, that man could have come from that type of thing. Devotee (1): He didn't seem actually very intelligent. Just, just someone who likes to argue. Revatīnandana Swami hit him with such an answer, he wasn't able to say anything. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Every district has got a town hall, in London. Śyāmasundara: Yes, every small suburb or borough of London, they have a town hall. Actually, we could go from one town hall to the next. Prabhupāda: Here is one town hall. Śyāmasundara: Holborne Town Hall. There's St. Pancras Town Hall, Camden Town Hall. Devotee (2): All big like that? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. All nice. Guest: But quite recently most of the, of the boroughs, for instance, take Kensington . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: . . . Kensington and Chelsea became one, so that you now have four town halls, in effect, within Kensington. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: And the same is with Marylebone. We've got Marylebone, Paddington, Westminster, all part of the Westminster City Council. This was the last Labour government we had. Prabhupāda: This is Camden Town? Śyāmasundara: This is Camden Town. We're right on the border. There is Holborne just across the street. And West . . . no, Westminster over there across the street. Guest: I had to take Dhanañjaya to see that garden I pointed out to you all, on top of the roof. It's a beautiful garden, on the roof. Śyāmasundara: Across the road from the . . . Guest: Yes, from the, across the road from the Town Hall. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: With waterfalls, there's a stream, bridge over it, ducks, dolls . . . Prabhupāda: On the roof? Guest: On the roof my Lord. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Guest: Dhanañjaya refused to believe it, and so I had to take him up there to see if he approved of it for you to have a look at it. Prabhupāda: It is not sold? Guest: Dhanañjaya saw it. Śyāmasundara: And now it's for sale . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . isn't it? Guest: Yes, it is. Yes, but it's far too much. Prabhupāda: So why not go and see? Śyāmasundara: Thirty million pounds. (laughter) Devotee (2): It's a church? Guest: No, no. It's a, opposite Derry & Toms department store. Very big one. Śyāmasundara: A little bit out of our range. (pause) Guest: What do you think of the idea of a central hall, my lord, ten million? Prabhupāda: Well, my admission is we must have the best house. Guest: Well, that's the best one going . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . in London at the moment. Prabhupāda: But it is up to the members of the London temple to secure the money. Śyāmasundara: That one is ten million pounds. Prabhupāda: Why ten million? Twenty million. Any. But we have to work for it. Too much ambition is not good. Guest: Oh no. Prabhupāda: But must be a very nice temple. You try; Kṛṣṇa will help. We have no power. But it is now necessary that we must change to a better place. That it is too much crowded, suffocating. Guest: Sometimes I think the only place you can get to stand downstairs is . . . is on people's heads. It's packed to capacity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we will require immediately. (knock at door) Yes. (female voice in background) Come in. Śyāmasundara: One thing is, I heard this place in Hammersmith will also be occupied for some time. Guest: Well, no. It, it will depend on a purchase. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: And then, uh, they'll have to move out. In the meantime, I don't think they themselves know . . . Prabhupāda: So . . . Guest: . . . if they're going to sell it. Prabhupāda: . . . did you sell some book? Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Devotee (2): Many people are looking at the Bhagavad*-gītā this evening, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Many, many. They like the pictures. *Prabhupāda: There is no such Bhagavad*-gītā in the English language, or any language. *Devotee (2): I'm already arranging with the Collier*-Macmillan that when Bhagavad-gītā comes to England, there will be a big publicity drive . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): . . . for the book, uh, reception of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Are they going to print it here, or print it in the US and bring it on the boat? Devotee (2): Bring it over on the boat. Śyāmasundara: How many copies? *Devotee (2): Many, many. Actually, Collier*-Macmillan, they will distribute them to the bookshops, and that will be very good for us. Śyāmasundara: You do have to give them a little push. Devotee (2): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: We have got our basic principle of Vedic knowledge, so there is no comparison with our edition with any other. Theirs, mental spec . . . how long they will speculate? (pause) (break) Devotee (2): You looked very beautiful this evening. Prabhupāda: I looked? Devotee (2): Yes. (laughter) Guest: It's a beautiful setting. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: In there. It was a very nice hall, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śyāmasundara: We . . . we should have our Bhāgavata*-saptāha in a nice hall like that. Then we could have . . . how much a night? Devotee (2): This one twenty pounds. *Śyāmasundara: They provided . . . (indistinct) . . . they provided all the sound equipment? (indistinct exchange) That's part of the twenty pounds? Twenty*-four pounds extra? Devotee (2): Four pounds. Śyāmasundara: Four pounds extra. That hall was twenty pounds for one night, plus four pounds for the sound equipment. They provided everything. Prabhupāda: Makes a surplus. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: Then how the Bhāgavata*-saptāha ? Śyāmasundara: Well their ad . . . their advertising was done mainly on the street, Oxford Street. They didn't approach the Hindi . . . Hindu communities directly. Isn't that it? Devotee (2): Yes. Śyāmasundara: They handed out leaflets, but mostly to English pedestrians on Oxford Street. Devotee (2): The next engagement will be mainly for Indians, next week. Prabhupāda: On the . . . Devotee (2): Seventeenth. Prabhupāda: . . . seventeenth. Guest: That is the Commonwealth Institute. Prabhupāda: Now go and take rest. (break) . . . this, that a man is dead, soul has gone out. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now after few hours millions of germs are coming out. They were not visible when the body was not dead. Now where they were? Revatīnandana: They were within the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, in everything there is living entity. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. But . . . Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time. Śyāmasundara: What, what he was telling me was that this table itself has a jīva soul, as if the table . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Śyāmasundara: . . . is a person. Oh. Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking when I said: "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question. Śyāmasundara: That's what completely threw me off. I thought, oh . . . Revatīnandana: That, that threw us all. Śyāmasundara: That means the table is a person, this is a person . . . Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. That it, it is also proof that every jīva soul is individual, although they are living combinedly. Everything is individual. Revatīnandana: Well that's . . . that's all right then. Now if the . . . Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. We . . . he was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, that small shining particles combine together. Revatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Molecules. So everything is the combined spirit particles. Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us. Everything. Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when that covered, that is called material. Śyāmasundara: Each, each jīva is . . . Prabhupāda: That the sunshine is now covered is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, that is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Revatīnandana: Is that covering . . . Prabhupāda: That covering also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that by the same energy it is disappeared, uncovered. Śyāmasundara: How, how is . . . Prabhupāda: So, the conclusion is, living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material. Revatīnandana: But this, the, the body itself . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . is sort of a, then is a manifestation of ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the . . . Prabhupāda: When this . . . Revatīnandana: . . . then when we see this . . . Prabhupāda: . . . when the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body. Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then, and then I know that I am not this body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. The question is . . . Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance. Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction between the nature of the soul . . . Prabhupāda: Then . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and the nature of the body. Prabhupāda: . . . that, that distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya . Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which distinguish matter and spirit. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva : inconceivable one and different, simultaneously. Śyāmasundara: When you . . . when you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a small living entity, or is a living entity with a small body, that each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Takes a small body made out of matter. Prabhupāda: That, that body means ignorant. Śyāmasundara: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Śarīra avidyā*-jāl . This body is nothing but a network of ignorance. Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all of these smaller cells, I organize them into my big body? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. So try to understand. Covered by something. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The same example, that the sunshine is there; it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally the sunshine is everything. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Is it clear? Śyāmasundara: So how do . . . how do, how do I create the matter . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . that is my body? How do I create the . . . Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are creating. You are creating actually. Śyāmasundara: By eating and . . .? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair, it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing. I am growing. I am creating. They do not know. That is ignorance. Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask us . . . then they ask us . . . Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public. Revatīnandana: Yeah, I know, but then just like somebody . . . Prabhupāda: These are very higher understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: For public should be, "This is matter; this is spirit." That's all. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Revatīnandana: That's right. But one, one of the devotees asked me one time why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernail continues to grow. Prabhupāda: It is nonsense. Never grows. Revatīnandana: Huh? They display like that. They have observed. Prabhupāda: It decomposes. Revatīnandana: But they say the hair continues to come out sometimes from the dead bodies. Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . Śyāmasundara: You, I think you said once, in answer to that, that sometimes the fan turns a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . little bit after the plug's pulled. Revatīnandana: Yeah, it's a mechanism, bodily mechanism is . . . (indistinct) . . . that's what I said. That some mech . . . material mechanism is still functioning, like a machine. Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe, just like the fan is stopped, but is still moving. Like that. Revatīnandana: Then . . . so that among the different manifestations of energies, it'd be oneness that they are all Kṛṣṇa's energies, but there is also diversities . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya*-bhedābheda. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You cannot clearly distinct. Bheda . It is one and different, at the same time. Revatīnandana: I have been under . . . Prabhupāda: It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that. Śyāmasundara: Some, somehow or other we create our own ignorance, even . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything spirit, but at the same time not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni ( BG 9.4), "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that? Everything is in Kṛṣṇa, so how Kṛṣṇa is not there? He said that. Revatīnandana: Yeah. You said because you can't see Him there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is matter. Śyāmasundara: That just . . . just I want to clear this up. Just like this table is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one . . . Prabhupāda: Atom, millions of atom. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says: "I am within the matter." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there? Śyāmasundara: Right. Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as a jīva expansion . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . not as plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also, jīva is also plenary expansion. Revatīnandana: Plenary? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I thought plenary means full expansion? Prabhupāda: Not plenary, that, that is also expansion. It is called vibhināṁśa . Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then . . . *Prabhupāda: Svāṁśa , vibhināṁśa. Viṣṇu*-tattva is svāṁśa. And vibhināṁśa , both of them are part and parcel. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the svāṁśa is plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And vibhināṁśa is part of plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom is as vibhināṁśa . Prabhupāda: No, both of them there. Revatīnandana: Both of them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: In the atom? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone. That, that . . . Prabhupāda: When, whenever that Kṛṣṇa is there the everything must be there. (laughter) *Haṁsadūta: Then in, in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it says that He's present in every atom in His complete fullness. Prabhupāda: That they . . . this brain will not accommodate. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But as soon as the King is there, you must know the King is with his minister, secretaries, everything. How you can say the King is alone there? Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya . Śyāmasundara: But this, this body of a table, there is not, it's not an individual personality, is it? Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: It's not one jīva soul that . . . in charge of this table? Revatīnandana: The table itself is not a person . . . Prabhupāda: No, not . . . Revatīnandana: . . . but within there are many persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that, are in there. Prabhupāda: God is also there. Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa's there. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But actually it is Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: But we cannot see. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ . . . idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa, but it appears is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya bhedābheda . So unless we accept the thesis and philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different . . . incon . . . for us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable. Acintya . But from theoretical, or by logical conclusion, everything is one, Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Revatīnandana: There's . . . I'd read . . . Prabhupāda: Another, another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair. I am, I am the hair . . . Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like. Revatīnandana: Mmm. Prabhupāda: This is called acintya bhedābheda , inconceivable. Revatīnandana: So that . . . there's a related thing, question, also there's . . . just like there is at, at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction then between these . . . Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear. Revatīnandana: I, I know, but, but still it, not clear, but clearly there is some distinction. Where the distinction is . . . Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction. Revatīnandana: Yes. Simultaneously. Prabhupāda: Simultaneously. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Now, which one we . . . which one accept? Therefore inconceivable. Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They're both . . . everything is related, in Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But there's also, amongst the related things, they are related things because there is also diversity amongst them. Prabhupāda: Hmm. There must be. Revatīnandana: That's right. Now, that is, in preaching in the movement that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living entities . . . Prabhupāda: That there is diversity why not. Revatīnandana: . . . and the brahmajyoti . They are saying . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul, and brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: There is . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the point. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but still, heat is not fire. Revatīnandana: So that . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away. Revatīnandana: That's right. So the, the, the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities? Prabhupāda: Yes. Is comparison a small spiritual spark, that's all. We are spark. Revatīnandana: Am I . . . Prabhupāda: So long he does not develop a body . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He wants to enjoy. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, so long he is forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter. Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. That he is spirit, spiritual identity, already. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: But as you are developing material body, similarly, you can develop spiritual body. Revatīnandana: You know you . . . you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the, the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti , he is considered still fallen . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . still fallen. That means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls. You see my question? If, if I go there, I am a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti , I am still fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. That follows? *Prabhupāda: Now, that, that is explained in, in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vibhināṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhināṁśa . You can call it fallen. Revatīnandana: But we usually . . . Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . be separated? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: . . . think of fallen as being forgetful. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also forgetful. That if you are in the brahmajyoti you are forgetful, still. Revatīnandana: But it, it . . . *Prabhupāda: Because, because that, because you are fallen, it is stated in the śāstra , anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Anādṛta . That they, they, they do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So did they become separated? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Now when, when he . . . Haṁsadūta: And that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when, in the spiritual world everything is composed of cintāmaṇi , cin . . . cintāmaṇi . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spiritual. Haṁsadūta: . . . so, just like here everything is composed of atoms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So, so suppose someone develops their spiritual form in the spiritual sky, that form, I mean that cintāmaṇi , they are living entities also? Are they . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: . . . conscious entities or, or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy, with Kṛṣṇa, is that an, an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency, or the . . . Prabhupāda: That you consider. Haṁsadūta: Huh? Prabhupāda: That we imagine. Haṁsadūta: I, I, I don't . . . that's what I'm asking for. Or is it, or, but like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is like . . . it is like that, that spiritual molecules. Haṁsadūta: Ohhh. Prabhupāda: Here also spiritual molecules, but here it is called material, because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Forgetful. Śyāmasundara: They, they are covered by ignorance. Revatīnandana: Now the cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhināṁśa expansion . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But he is remembering. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: He is remembering; therefore he is . . . Prabhupāda: He may not remember. Revatīnandana: Well, he is with Kṛṣṇa, he loves Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is . . . Prabhupāda: Just like a, when they, when cowherd boys playing, that they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know. Revatīnandana: Yeah. But they love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The love is there. Revatīnandana: So we will not say they are then . . . Prabhupāda: So when the love is there, that is spiritual. Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That is not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They're not separated in any way. Revatīnandana: So . . . Prabhupāda: That, that should be . . . you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Revatīnandana: The, the thing that was bothering me, when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti , if it is jīvas , that they, they are all fallen souls, and I thought so many . . . Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere when Kṛṣṇa is forgotten. That is fallen. Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was then that just like in the room there's so many particles of light, already inconceivable, and then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable it was making my head spin. Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Separated. Separated. Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position. Prabhupāda: But not as fallen as those who are in this material. Revatīnandana: That's right, but still if they go there, they'll sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . come back . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . here again. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, now, they are not pure. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: They are not pure. Devotee: Oh. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhāgavata : aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified. Revatīnandana: Are they, are they less fallen because they are doing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . some service? Prabhupāda: Whether, it is clearly stated . . . Revatīnandana: By lighting it up? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence. Aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated, still con . . . Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence, yes. So they're realizing . . . *Prabhupāda: That they, they, they think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says no, it is not yet liberated. Aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Still there is contamination. Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. That there they also, to some extent, they are also fallen. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then you see . . . Prabhupāda: Ananta . Revatīnandana: . . . most souls . . . Prabhupāda: You can . . . you cannot, you cannot say how many. Ananta. Saḥ anantāya kalpanā. Ananta means unlimited number. You, you . . . there is no question of counting. Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya . Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's so great. Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya , inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is, that is perfection. That's all. You, you can not understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Yes. (laughter) He is so . . . (laughing) And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Jaya . Prabhupāda: That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Śyāmasundara: So what to speak of us. Revatīnandana: But the more we understand, the more we can convince . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: . . . others. Prabhupāda: No. That better you understand this, that you cannot understand. Haṁsadūta: The more we understand . . . Prabhupāda: This understanding is better. Revatīnandana: No, but why I said this is that, that . . . Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: . . . that, that, don't, don't . . . Prabhupāda: That I cannot understand. (laughing) This understanding. Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up, and then just simply . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is real understanding, that Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can. Whatever is my . . . my capacity. And that is perfection. Revatīnandana: Yes. But still we deal with this philosophy for . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, on the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says we can understand, then, that's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible. Revatīnandana: But in this life, just like this book, this is for convincing people. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: This book is for convincing men to understand . . . Prabhupāda: Now, still, we understand better than them. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big, that is understandable even by us, and what to, about these here rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position that, "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him, and what, rascal, you can understand?" (laughter) The attitude should be taken like that. Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says. Prabhupāda: That's it. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all, and, and we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense people try to understand a thing without . . . by, by inspecting it. Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He has no capacity, still he wants and, and when, and when he is caught, that you have no capacity, "No, I am trying, I am trying." Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He won't say that, "I have no capacity." Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Or "I will understand." Prabhupāda: "I will understand," that he will say. Śyāmasundara: "In the future, someday I will." Prabhupāda: Obstinacy. Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible, and then when we don't understand . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and then when we don't understand, that's . . . Prabhupāda: As far as we know from sādhu , guru , śāstra . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. That is our understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Can't extend it any further . . . Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: . . . on our own. Prabhupāda: Don't try to extend on it. Revatīnandana: No. Devotee: Yes. Like that business . . . Revatīnandana: That was speculation. Śyāmasundara: . . . about the soul and the table. It just completely changed everything we've learned so far. Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru , that is my life, that's all. Let me execute that." Revatīnandana: That was . . . that was semantics. That was, that was word usage. That's why we got confused. And that's . . . so now I can clear up the confusion. Thank you very much. All glories to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Haṁsadūta: Uhh, I have one more question, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (aside) On the light. Haṁsadūta: There are in, in our world here, there are material scientists, and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance . . . Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different. Haṁsadūta: I know, but I mean there must be, suppose on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted, in his prayer, that people . . . "Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part I say I have never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So even Brahmā cannot understand, why . . . what we? He said the other rascals may say . . . uh? Where is that Brahmā prayer? In the first part? Find out. *Śyāmasundara: Brahma*-samhitā. Haṁsadūta: No, that's in the, uh, "Process of Creation," isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no. In Kṛṣṇa book. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa One . Prabhupāda: Now, where is that? Śyāmasundara: Right here. Prabhupāda: This is second part. I see always that volume. Śyāmasundara: Second part? There, there's . . . Volume Two is there. Prabhupāda: No. Volume Two, yes. Śyāmasundara: It's here. Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. That . . . no, no, it is not in Volume Two. Revatīnandana: No, it's in Volume One. Haṁsadūta: In Volume One. Revatīnandana: Volume One, in . . . at, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Revatīnandana: There was . . . when I went to Paris they had gotten all confused. Some were thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā, is not a pure devotee, because . . . Prabhupāda: In one sense not, he is not pure devotee. Revatīnandana: Well, by his behavior sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: Not that behavior . . . (indistinct) . . . because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire. Haṁsadūta: But, but is he still, Prabhupāda . . .? Revatīnandana: Isn't he pure? That, that he said . . . Haṁsadūta: But at the same time he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, as he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Prabhupāda: But Brahmā, it does not mean Brahmā cannot be pure devotee. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Does he become a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Revatīnandana: Otherwise, how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma*-samhitā ? Śyāmasundara: Someone's bringing . . . Revatīnandana: That's what I said. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Someone is bringing one. A first volume. Revatīnandana: Also, he's the head of our disciplic succession, and I couldn't figure out, that's why I said: "No, he's a pure devotee. How can he be the head of our disciplic succession, he's not a pure devotee?" Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Bon Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: And Bhavānanda's letter. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This big one, from Bhavānanda's. Prabhupāda: Oh, open it. Where is that gone? Where has taken it? Śyāmasundara: Where? What? Prabhupāda: That knife. Śyāmasundara: There it is. Prabhupāda: Open that Brahmā's prayer. Śyāmasundara: (opening letter) Bhavānanda special. (laughing) Revatīnandana: Chitpur . . . *Prabhupāda: (announcing) Calcutta First Annual Holy Ratha*-yātrā Mahotsava. Revatīnandana: Says Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing. Śyāmasundara: That's not it. Revatīnandana: That's in north Calcutta, huh? Prabhupāda: Ah. Revatīnandana: Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road? Śyāmasundara: Chitpur, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing. Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's in north Calcutta. Devotee: Nine, twelve. Revatīnandana: Oh, here we go. Śyāmasundara: At three p.m. *Prabhupāda: Ah*-hah, is big? Śyāmasundara: First five days' program, maṅgala-ārati . (laughs) Six days of prasāda distribution, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam discourse, slideshows, art, drama, saṅkīrtana , harināma kīrtana . Revatīnandana: What's that show . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, with plan also given. Revatīnandana: Ohh. Śyāmasundara: Sandhyā ārati. Revatīnandana: Oh, they're gonna begin . . . Śyāmasundara: Plus . . . Revatīnandana: . . . they're gonna begin . . . oh, it's long. It's a long route. They're gonna go from Mahatma Gandhi Road down Chitpur Road to Park Street . . . Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and from Park Street all the way to the temple. Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting at the temple. Oh, yeah. Revatīnandana: Starting at the temple? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Revatīnandana: Oh, I see, at the temple. Śyāmasundara: Starting at the temple, instead of Mahatma Gandhi. Revatīnandana: Street, Park Street. Oh, they're going on Chowringhee Road. Prabhupāda: So they are doing something. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, really. That, that'll stand out all over Calcutta. Prabhupāda: You can, you can hang this picture somewhere, permanently. Śyāmasundara: Here in . . . right here in . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. People will see. Śyāmasundara: Oh, downstairs. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are in Calcutta also. Śyāmasundara: Oh, okay, in the hall. We can put it in . . . Prabhupāda: Now you can paste in a board. Śyāmasundara: On a board? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, outside. Prabhupāda: Anywhere, you can take it. But in Calcutta you should also have. Revatīnandana: And the devotees will love to see this. Prabhupāda: Ah. What is the letter? *Śyāmasundara: It says: "Please . . . enclosed please find the Ratha*-yātrā poster. It would appear that it is going to be very successful, and we are expecting a large crowd at the Rādhā-Govinda temple. The program will run from Wednesday the twelfth to Sunday the sixteenth. Each evening we will have a special . . . " (break) *Haṁsadūta: ". . . hand, and searching for Your calves. And yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma*-samhitā , Your body is not material." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: He says: "Even though You're standing before me, I can't . . ." so who . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He says: ". . . even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand You." So people they, they think they understand it, only God is nowhere near. (laughing with Prabhupāda) *Śyāmasundara: "As I said in my Brahma*-samhitā ." (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand, what we can understand? So without burdening ourself, jñāne prayāsam . To . . . jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. No one . . . Give up this practice, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva (SB 10.14.3). Just become submissive. Submission means that we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, simply just serve, that's all, and develop your dormant love. That is perfect. Haṁsadūta: You say . . . is that why Kṛṣṇa also says to Arjuna, He says: "What need is there of all this, uh . . ." Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Haṁsadūta: In, in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything." *Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva san*-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām jīvanti (SB 10.14.3). Śyāmasundara: I see that they've got a telephone in Māyāpur now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: They, they have a telephone in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Oh! Śyāmasundara: Svarupa Ganj 31. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That . . . that is wanted. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs with Prabhupāda) There's actually a telephone there. Prabhupāda: So many American brains are there, if they do not do like that, then what is the use? Have you seen the letter heading then? Śyāmasundara: Oh, it has a little on the side, Māyāpur Center. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the same, Calcutta. *Śyāmasundara: Mm*-hm. Prabhupāda: Ah, Māyāpur Center. Sridhama Māyāpur, District Nadia, Phone Svarupa Ganj 31. Śyāmasundara: You can actually telephone them someday. Yeah, if you manage to get through. Prabhupāda: Construct big, big temples, and keep it alive—by kīrtana , by book distribution, by distribution prasāda . "And now we have got big temple, let us eat prasāda and sleep. (laughing) Then temple, will also sleep. That's all." Now we should also keep it in mind, unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center, because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down, that which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he, he could not manage. There was debts, and he became disgusted. You see? Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in, in Germany I have . . . I have for instance in Munchen, in Munich, and in . . . Prabhupāda: There at least must be two, three men. Otherwise don't open. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, there are two or three men, but I visit them regularly. You know I . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You just living . . . keep them alive. Haṁsadūta: That's right, yeah. Prabhupāda: Simply because you have opened a center the business is finished, no. Haṁsadūta: No. I go. We go there . . . Prabhupāda: You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution, saṅkīr . . . busy. That is alive. Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, there are so many Indian temples or churches, they think the church is there, everything is finished. No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale. Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. We . . . we would . . . we would . . . everywhere it's like that. We attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And then more come and come. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Come on. So how you were allowed to enter? Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty. Prabhupāda: Ah. Last time you had difficulty. Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was . . . Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news? Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there. Prabhupāda: Your health is all right? Śivānanda: My health is fine. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities. Yes. Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudāmā was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 8, 1972, London Prabhupāda: Read our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . You will get so many ideas of preaching about Caitanya. (break) . . . analysis of the social structure of human society. People do not know it, how to make this social structure. There must be brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra . Simply one class, śūdra class, laborer class, will not make perfect. Guest: You can see it yourself. It's perfectly true. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: This country, at the moment my lord . . . with everyone trying to be equal, it just doesn't work. Prabhupāda: No. How you can make it work? You require a head and tail also. We cannot make head and tail equal. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Simply head will not do, simply tail will not do. We require head and tail both. Then it will be beautiful. So it is actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is solution of all problems. Thinking, thoughtful men should come forward, study it, and try to introduce it in the human society. Otherwise, this piling of bricks and stones will not help. Guest: There is so much wickedness in the world, my lord, I fear that if you try to force anything good, it will be rejected every time. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. (pause) How long I spoke? Śyāmasundara: Nearly one hour. About fifty minutes. Guest: Fantastic. Prabhupāda: So practically there was no question that upstart boy only (laughing). Made some question that had no value. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: And the reply was appropriate. Śyāmasundara: Very. He said that he was hearing blasphemy and this and that, so he got what he deserved. Prabhupāda: Blasphemy? Śyāmasundara: He said, yes, he said he had . . . that he thought you were blaspheming God. Prabhupāda: Blasphemy, why? Śyāmasundara: Who knows? According to the Christian point of view, he said. Guest: I wonder what sort of Christian he was. Devotee (1): No Christian. Guest: No, this is it. That is the whole point, isn't it. Devotee (1): Christian by name, and demon by activities. Guest: Yeah. There's a . . . there's two sects in London which fascinate me. I mean, one is called The Pillar of Fire Society, and nobody's ever been able to find out what they mean. And the other is the Limited . . . *The Plymouth Brethren, and they're so . . . the Inner Circle of The Plymouth Brethren. You have to be born into this. This seems to be so stupid. They're so tight, so tight*-reined on, on, on their thinking that, that man could have come from that type of thing. Devotee (1): He didn't seem actually very intelligent. Just, just someone who likes to argue. Revatīnandana Swami hit him with such an answer, he wasn't able to say anything. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Every district has got a town hall, in London. Śyāmasundara: Yes, every small suburb or borough of London, they have a town hall. Actually, we could go from one town hall to the next. Prabhupāda: Here is one town hall. Śyāmasundara: Holborne Town Hall. There's St. Pancras Town Hall, Camden Town Hall. Devotee (2): All big like that? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. All nice. Guest: But quite recently most of the, of the boroughs, for instance, take Kensington . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: . . . Kensington and Chelsea became one, so that you now have four town halls, in effect, within Kensington. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: And the same is with Marylebone. We've got Marylebone, Paddington, Westminster, all part of the Westminster City Council. This was the last Labour government we had. Prabhupāda: This is Camden Town? Śyāmasundara: This is Camden Town. We're right on the border. There is Holborne just across the street. And West . . . no, Westminster over there across the street. Guest: I had to take Dhanañjaya to see that garden I pointed out to you all, on top of the roof. It's a beautiful garden, on the roof. Śyāmasundara: Across the road from the . . . Guest: Yes, from the, across the road from the Town Hall. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: With waterfalls, there's a stream, bridge over it, ducks, dolls . . . Prabhupāda: On the roof? Guest: On the roof my Lord. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Guest: Dhanañjaya refused to believe it, and so I had to take him up there to see if he approved of it for you to have a look at it. Prabhupāda: It is not sold? Guest: Dhanañjaya saw it. Śyāmasundara: And now it's for sale . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . isn't it? Guest: Yes, it is. Yes, but it's far too much. Prabhupāda: So why not go and see? Śyāmasundara: Thirty million pounds. (laughter) Devotee (2): It's a church? Guest: No, no. It's a, opposite Derry & Toms department store. Very big one. Śyāmasundara: A little bit out of our range. (pause) Guest: What do you think of the idea of a central hall, my lord, ten million? Prabhupāda: Well, my admission is we must have the best house. Guest: Well, that's the best one going . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . in London at the moment. Prabhupāda: But it is up to the members of the London temple to secure the money. Śyāmasundara: That one is ten million pounds. Prabhupāda: Why ten million? Twenty million. Any. But we have to work for it. Too much ambition is not good. Guest: Oh no. Prabhupāda: But must be a very nice temple. You try; Kṛṣṇa will help. We have no power. But it is now necessary that we must change to a better place. That it is too much crowded, suffocating. Guest: Sometimes I think the only place you can get to stand downstairs is . . . is on people's heads. It's packed to capacity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we will require immediately. (knock at door) Yes. (female voice in background) Come in. Śyāmasundara: One thing is, I heard this place in Hammersmith will also be occupied for some time. Guest: Well, no. It, it will depend on a purchase. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: And then, uh, they'll have to move out. In the meantime, I don't think they themselves know . . . Prabhupāda: So . . . Guest: . . . if they're going to sell it. Prabhupāda: . . . did you sell some book? Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Devotee (2): Many people are looking at the Bhagavad*-gītā this evening, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Many, many. They like the pictures. *Prabhupāda: There is no such Bhagavad*-gītā in the English language, or any language. *Devotee (2): I'm already arranging with the Collier*-Macmillan that when Bhagavad-gītā comes to England, there will be a big publicity drive . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): . . . for the book, uh, reception of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Are they going to print it here, or print it in the US and bring it on the boat? Devotee (2): Bring it over on the boat. Śyāmasundara: How many copies? *Devotee (2): Many, many. Actually, Collier*-Macmillan, they will distribute them to the bookshops, and that will be very good for us. Śyāmasundara: You do have to give them a little push. Devotee (2): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: We have got our basic principle of Vedic knowledge, so there is no comparison with our edition with any other. Theirs, mental spec . . . how long they will speculate? (pause) (break) Devotee (2): You looked very beautiful this evening. Prabhupāda: I looked? Devotee (2): Yes. (laughter) Guest: It's a beautiful setting. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: In there. It was a very nice hall, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śyāmasundara: We . . . we should have our Bhāgavata*-saptāha in a nice hall like that. Then we could have . . . how much a night? Devotee (2): This one twenty pounds. *Śyāmasundara: They provided . . . (indistinct) . . . they provided all the sound equipment? (indistinct exchange) That's part of the twenty pounds? Twenty*-four pounds extra? Devotee (2): Four pounds. Śyāmasundara: Four pounds extra. That hall was twenty pounds for one night, plus four pounds for the sound equipment. They provided everything. Prabhupāda: Makes a surplus. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: Then how the Bhāgavata*-saptāha ? Śyāmasundara: Well their ad . . . their advertising was done mainly on the street, Oxford Street. They didn't approach the Hindi . . . Hindu communities directly. Isn't that it? Devotee (2): Yes. Śyāmasundara: They handed out leaflets, but mostly to English pedestrians on Oxford Street. Devotee (2): The next engagement will be mainly for Indians, next week. Prabhupāda: On the . . . Devotee (2): Seventeenth. Prabhupāda: . . . seventeenth. Guest: That is the Commonwealth Institute. Prabhupāda: Now go and take rest. (break) . . . this, that a man is dead, soul has gone out. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now after few hours millions of germs are coming out. They were not visible when the body was not dead. Now where they were? Revatīnandana: They were within the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, in everything there is living entity. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. But . . . Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time. Śyāmasundara: What, what he was telling me was that this table itself has a jīva soul, as if the table . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Śyāmasundara: . . . is a person. Oh. Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking when I said: "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question. Śyāmasundara: That's what completely threw me off. I thought, oh . . . Revatīnandana: That, that threw us all. Śyāmasundara: That means the table is a person, this is a person . . . Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. That it, it is also proof that every jīva soul is individual, although they are living combinedly. Everything is individual. Revatīnandana: Well that's . . . that's all right then. Now if the . . . Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. We . . . he was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, that small shining particles combine together. Revatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Molecules. So everything is the combined spirit particles. Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us. Everything. Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when that covered, that is called material. Śyāmasundara: Each, each jīva is . . . Prabhupāda: That the sunshine is now covered is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, that is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Revatīnandana: Is that covering . . . Prabhupāda: That covering also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that by the same energy it is disappeared, uncovered. Śyāmasundara: How, how is . . . Prabhupāda: So, the conclusion is, living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material. Revatīnandana: But this, the, the body itself . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . is sort of a, then is a manifestation of ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the . . . Prabhupāda: When this . . . Revatīnandana: . . . then when we see this . . . Prabhupāda: . . . when the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body. Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then, and then I know that I am not this body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. The question is . . . Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance. Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction between the nature of the soul . . . Prabhupāda: Then . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and the nature of the body. Prabhupāda: . . . that, that distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya . Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which distinguish matter and spirit. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva : inconceivable one and different, simultaneously. Śyāmasundara: When you . . . when you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a small living entity, or is a living entity with a small body, that each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Takes a small body made out of matter. Prabhupāda: That, that body means ignorant. Śyāmasundara: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Śarīra avidyā*-jāl . This body is nothing but a network of ignorance. Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all of these smaller cells, I organize them into my big body? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. So try to understand. Covered by something. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The same example, that the sunshine is there; it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally the sunshine is everything. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Is it clear? Śyāmasundara: So how do . . . how do, how do I create the matter . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . that is my body? How do I create the . . . Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are creating. You are creating actually. Śyāmasundara: By eating and . . .? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair, it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing. I am growing. I am creating. They do not know. That is ignorance. Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask us . . . then they ask us . . . Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public. Revatīnandana: Yeah, I know, but then just like somebody . . . Prabhupāda: These are very higher understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: For public should be, "This is matter; this is spirit." That's all. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Revatīnandana: That's right. But one, one of the devotees asked me one time why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernail continues to grow. Prabhupāda: It is nonsense. Never grows. Revatīnandana: Huh? They display like that. They have observed. Prabhupāda: It decomposes. Revatīnandana: But they say the hair continues to come out sometimes from the dead bodies. Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . Śyāmasundara: You, I think you said once, in answer to that, that sometimes the fan turns a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . little bit after the plug's pulled. Revatīnandana: Yeah, it's a mechanism, bodily mechanism is . . . (indistinct) . . . that's what I said. That some mech . . . material mechanism is still functioning, like a machine. Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe, just like the fan is stopped, but is still moving. Like that. Revatīnandana: Then . . . so that among the different manifestations of energies, it'd be oneness that they are all Kṛṣṇa's energies, but there is also diversities . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya*-bhedābheda. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You cannot clearly distinct. Bheda . It is one and different, at the same time. Revatīnandana: I have been under . . . Prabhupāda: It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that. Śyāmasundara: Some, somehow or other we create our own ignorance, even . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything spirit, but at the same time not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni ( BG 9.4), "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that? Everything is in Kṛṣṇa, so how Kṛṣṇa is not there? He said that. Revatīnandana: Yeah. You said because you can't see Him there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is matter. Śyāmasundara: That just . . . just I want to clear this up. Just like this table is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one . . . Prabhupāda: Atom, millions of atom. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says: "I am within the matter." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there? Śyāmasundara: Right. Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as a jīva expansion . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . not as plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also, jīva is also plenary expansion. Revatīnandana: Plenary? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I thought plenary means full expansion? Prabhupāda: Not plenary, that, that is also expansion. It is called vibhināṁśa . Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then . . . *Prabhupāda: Svāṁśa , vibhināṁśa. Viṣṇu*-tattva is svāṁśa. And vibhināṁśa , both of them are part and parcel. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the svāṁśa is plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And vibhināṁśa is part of plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom is as vibhināṁśa . Prabhupāda: No, both of them there. Revatīnandana: Both of them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: In the atom? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone. That, that . . . Prabhupāda: When, whenever that Kṛṣṇa is there the everything must be there. (laughter) *Haṁsadūta: Then in, in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it says that He's present in every atom in His complete fullness. Prabhupāda: That they . . . this brain will not accommodate. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But as soon as the King is there, you must know the King is with his minister, secretaries, everything. How you can say the King is alone there? Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya . Śyāmasundara: But this, this body of a table, there is not, it's not an individual personality, is it? Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: It's not one jīva soul that . . . in charge of this table? Revatīnandana: The table itself is not a person . . . Prabhupāda: No, not . . . Revatīnandana: . . . but within there are many persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that, are in there. Prabhupāda: God is also there. Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa's there. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But actually it is Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: But we cannot see. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ . . . idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa, but it appears is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya bhedābheda . So unless we accept the thesis and philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different . . . incon . . . for us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable. Acintya . But from theoretical, or by logical conclusion, everything is one, Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Revatīnandana: There's . . . I'd read . . . Prabhupāda: Another, another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair. I am, I am the hair . . . Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like. Revatīnandana: Mmm. Prabhupāda: This is called acintya bhedābheda , inconceivable. Revatīnandana: So that . . . there's a related thing, question, also there's . . . just like there is at, at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction then between these . . . Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear. Revatīnandana: I, I know, but, but still it, not clear, but clearly there is some distinction. Where the distinction is . . . Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction. Revatīnandana: Yes. Simultaneously. Prabhupāda: Simultaneously. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Now, which one we . . . which one accept? Therefore inconceivable. Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They're both . . . everything is related, in Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But there's also, amongst the related things, they are related things because there is also diversity amongst them. Prabhupāda: Hmm. There must be. Revatīnandana: That's right. Now, that is, in preaching in the movement that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living entities . . . Prabhupāda: That there is diversity why not. Revatīnandana: . . . and the brahmajyoti . They are saying . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul, and brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: There is . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the point. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but still, heat is not fire. Revatīnandana: So that . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away. Revatīnandana: That's right. So the, the, the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities? Prabhupāda: Yes. Is comparison a small spiritual spark, that's all. We are spark. Revatīnandana: Am I . . . Prabhupāda: So long he does not develop a body . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He wants to enjoy. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, so long he is forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter. Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. That he is spirit, spiritual identity, already. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: But as you are developing material body, similarly, you can develop spiritual body. Revatīnandana: You know you . . . you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the, the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti , he is considered still fallen . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . still fallen. That means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls. You see my question? If, if I go there, I am a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti , I am still fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. That follows? *Prabhupāda: Now, that, that is explained in, in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vibhināṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhināṁśa . You can call it fallen. Revatīnandana: But we usually . . . Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . be separated? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: . . . think of fallen as being forgetful. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also forgetful. That if you are in the brahmajyoti you are forgetful, still. Revatīnandana: But it, it . . . *Prabhupāda: Because, because that, because you are fallen, it is stated in the śāstra , anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Anādṛta . That they, they, they do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So did they become separated? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Now when, when he . . . Haṁsadūta: And that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when, in the spiritual world everything is composed of cintāmaṇi , cin . . . cintāmaṇi . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spiritual. Haṁsadūta: . . . so, just like here everything is composed of atoms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So, so suppose someone develops their spiritual form in the spiritual sky, that form, I mean that cintāmaṇi , they are living entities also? Are they . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: . . . conscious entities or, or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy, with Kṛṣṇa, is that an, an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency, or the . . . Prabhupāda: That you consider. Haṁsadūta: Huh? Prabhupāda: That we imagine. Haṁsadūta: I, I, I don't . . . that's what I'm asking for. Or is it, or, but like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is like . . . it is like that, that spiritual molecules. Haṁsadūta: Ohhh. Prabhupāda: Here also spiritual molecules, but here it is called material, because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Forgetful. Śyāmasundara: They, they are covered by ignorance. Revatīnandana: Now the cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhināṁśa expansion . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But he is remembering. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: He is remembering; therefore he is . . . Prabhupāda: He may not remember. Revatīnandana: Well, he is with Kṛṣṇa, he loves Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is . . . Prabhupāda: Just like a, when they, when cowherd boys playing, that they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know. Revatīnandana: Yeah. But they love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The love is there. Revatīnandana: So we will not say they are then . . . Prabhupāda: So when the love is there, that is spiritual. Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That is not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They're not separated in any way. Revatīnandana: So . . . Prabhupāda: That, that should be . . . you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Revatīnandana: The, the thing that was bothering me, when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti , if it is jīvas , that they, they are all fallen souls, and I thought so many . . . Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere when Kṛṣṇa is forgotten. That is fallen. Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was then that just like in the room there's so many particles of light, already inconceivable, and then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable it was making my head spin. Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Separated. Separated. Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position. Prabhupāda: But not as fallen as those who are in this material. Revatīnandana: That's right, but still if they go there, they'll sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . come back . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . here again. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, now, they are not pure. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: They are not pure. Devotee: Oh. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhāgavata : aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified. Revatīnandana: Are they, are they less fallen because they are doing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . some service? Prabhupāda: Whether, it is clearly stated . . . Revatīnandana: By lighting it up? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence. Aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated, still con . . . Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence, yes. So they're realizing . . . *Prabhupāda: That they, they, they think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says no, it is not yet liberated. Aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Still there is contamination. Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. That there they also, to some extent, they are also fallen. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then you see . . . Prabhupāda: Ananta . Revatīnandana: . . . most souls . . . Prabhupāda: You can . . . you cannot, you cannot say how many. Ananta. Saḥ anantāya kalpanā. Ananta means unlimited number. You, you . . . there is no question of counting. Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya . Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's so great. Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya , inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is, that is perfection. That's all. You, you can not understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Yes. (laughter) He is so . . . (laughing) And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Jaya . Prabhupāda: That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Śyāmasundara: So what to speak of us. Revatīnandana: But the more we understand, the more we can convince . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: . . . others. Prabhupāda: No. That better you understand this, that you cannot understand. Haṁsadūta: The more we understand . . . Prabhupāda: This understanding is better. Revatīnandana: No, but why I said this is that, that . . . Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: . . . that, that, don't, don't . . . Prabhupāda: That I cannot understand. (laughing) This understanding. Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up, and then just simply . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is real understanding, that Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can. Whatever is my . . . my capacity. And that is perfection. Revatīnandana: Yes. But still we deal with this philosophy for . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, on the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says we can understand, then, that's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible. Revatīnandana: But in this life, just like this book, this is for convincing people. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: This book is for convincing men to understand . . . Prabhupāda: Now, still, we understand better than them. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big, that is understandable even by us, and what to, about these here rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position that, "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him, and what, rascal, you can understand?" (laughter) The attitude should be taken like that. Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says. Prabhupāda: That's it. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all, and, and we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense people try to understand a thing without . . . by, by inspecting it. Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He has no capacity, still he wants and, and when, and when he is caught, that you have no capacity, "No, I am trying, I am trying." Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He won't say that, "I have no capacity." Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Or "I will understand." Prabhupāda: "I will understand," that he will say. Śyāmasundara: "In the future, someday I will." Prabhupāda: Obstinacy. Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible, and then when we don't understand . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and then when we don't understand, that's . . . Prabhupāda: As far as we know from sādhu , guru , śāstra . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. That is our understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Can't extend it any further . . . Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: . . . on our own. Prabhupāda: Don't try to extend on it. Revatīnandana: No. Devotee: Yes. Like that business . . . Revatīnandana: That was speculation. Śyāmasundara: . . . about the soul and the table. It just completely changed everything we've learned so far. Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru , that is my life, that's all. Let me execute that." Revatīnandana: That was . . . that was semantics. That was, that was word usage. That's why we got confused. And that's . . . so now I can clear up the confusion. Thank you very much. All glories to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Haṁsadūta: Uhh, I have one more question, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (aside) On the light. Haṁsadūta: There are in, in our world here, there are material scientists, and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance . . . Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different. Haṁsadūta: I know, but I mean there must be, suppose on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted, in his prayer, that people . . . "Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part I say I have never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So even Brahmā cannot understand, why . . . what we? He said the other rascals may say . . . uh? Where is that Brahmā prayer? In the first part? Find out. *Śyāmasundara: Brahma*-samhitā. Haṁsadūta: No, that's in the, uh, "Process of Creation," isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no. In Kṛṣṇa book. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa One . Prabhupāda: Now, where is that? Śyāmasundara: Right here. Prabhupāda: This is second part. I see always that volume. Śyāmasundara: Second part? There, there's . . . Volume Two is there. Prabhupāda: No. Volume Two, yes. Śyāmasundara: It's here. Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. That . . . no, no, it is not in Volume Two. Revatīnandana: No, it's in Volume One. Haṁsadūta: In Volume One. Revatīnandana: Volume One, in . . . at, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Revatīnandana: There was . . . when I went to Paris they had gotten all confused. Some were thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā, is not a pure devotee, because . . . Prabhupāda: In one sense not, he is not pure devotee. Revatīnandana: Well, by his behavior sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: Not that behavior . . . (indistinct) . . . because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire. Haṁsadūta: But, but is he still, Prabhupāda . . .? Revatīnandana: Isn't he pure? That, that he said . . . Haṁsadūta: But at the same time he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, as he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Prabhupāda: But Brahmā, it does not mean Brahmā cannot be pure devotee. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Does he become a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Revatīnandana: Otherwise, how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma*-samhitā ? Śyāmasundara: Someone's bringing . . . Revatīnandana: That's what I said. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Someone is bringing one. A first volume. Revatīnandana: Also, he's the head of our disciplic succession, and I couldn't figure out, that's why I said: "No, he's a pure devotee. How can he be the head of our disciplic succession, he's not a pure devotee?" Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Bon Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: And Bhavānanda's letter. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This big one, from Bhavānanda's. Prabhupāda: Oh, open it. Where is that gone? Where has taken it? Śyāmasundara: Where? What? Prabhupāda: That knife. Śyāmasundara: There it is. Prabhupāda: Open that Brahmā's prayer. Śyāmasundara: (opening letter) Bhavānanda special. (laughing) Revatīnandana: Chitpur . . . *Prabhupāda: (announcing) Calcutta First Annual Holy Ratha*-yātrā Mahotsava. Revatīnandana: Says Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing. Śyāmasundara: That's not it. Revatīnandana: That's in north Calcutta, huh? Prabhupāda: Ah. Revatīnandana: Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road? Śyāmasundara: Chitpur, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing. Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's in north Calcutta. Devotee: Nine, twelve. Revatīnandana: Oh, here we go. Śyāmasundara: At three p.m. *Prabhupāda: Ah*-hah, is big? Śyāmasundara: First five days' program, maṅgala-ārati . (laughs) Six days of prasāda distribution, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam discourse, slideshows, art, drama, saṅkīrtana , harināma kīrtana . Revatīnandana: What's that show . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, with plan also given. Revatīnandana: Ohh. Śyāmasundara: Sandhyā ārati. Revatīnandana: Oh, they're gonna begin . . . Śyāmasundara: Plus . . . Revatīnandana: . . . they're gonna begin . . . oh, it's long. It's a long route. They're gonna go from Mahatma Gandhi Road down Chitpur Road to Park Street . . . Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and from Park Street all the way to the temple. Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting at the temple. Oh, yeah. Revatīnandana: Starting at the temple? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Revatīnandana: Oh, I see, at the temple. Śyāmasundara: Starting at the temple, instead of Mahatma Gandhi. Revatīnandana: Street, Park Street. Oh, they're going on Chowringhee Road. Prabhupāda: So they are doing something. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, really. That, that'll stand out all over Calcutta. Prabhupāda: You can, you can hang this picture somewhere, permanently. Śyāmasundara: Here in . . . right here in . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. People will see. Śyāmasundara: Oh, downstairs. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are in Calcutta also. Śyāmasundara: Oh, okay, in the hall. We can put it in . . . Prabhupāda: Now you can paste in a board. Śyāmasundara: On a board? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, outside. Prabhupāda: Anywhere, you can take it. But in Calcutta you should also have. Revatīnandana: And the devotees will love to see this. Prabhupāda: Ah. What is the letter? *Śyāmasundara: It says: "Please . . . enclosed please find the Ratha*-yātrā poster. It would appear that it is going to be very successful, and we are expecting a large crowd at the Rādhā-Govinda temple. The program will run from Wednesday the twelfth to Sunday the sixteenth. Each evening we will have a special . . . " (break) *Haṁsadūta: ". . . hand, and searching for Your calves. And yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma*-samhitā , Your body is not material." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: He says: "Even though You're standing before me, I can't . . ." so who . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He says: ". . . even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand You." So people they, they think they understand it, only God is nowhere near. (laughing with Prabhupāda) *Śyāmasundara: "As I said in my Brahma*-samhitā ." (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand, what we can understand? So without burdening ourself, jñāne prayāsam . To . . . jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. No one . . . Give up this practice, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva (SB 10.14.3). Just become submissive. Submission means that we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, simply just serve, that's all, and develop your dormant love. That is perfect. Haṁsadūta: You say . . . is that why Kṛṣṇa also says to Arjuna, He says: "What need is there of all this, uh . . ." Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Haṁsadūta: In, in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything." *Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva san*-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām jīvanti (SB 10.14.3). Śyāmasundara: I see that they've got a telephone in Māyāpur now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: They, they have a telephone in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Oh! Śyāmasundara: Svarupa Ganj 31. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That . . . that is wanted. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs with Prabhupāda) There's actually a telephone there. Prabhupāda: So many American brains are there, if they do not do like that, then what is the use? Have you seen the letter heading then? Śyāmasundara: Oh, it has a little on the side, Māyāpur Center. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the same, Calcutta. *Śyāmasundara: Mm*-hm. Prabhupāda: Ah, Māyāpur Center. Sridhama Māyāpur, District Nadia, Phone Svarupa Ganj 31. Śyāmasundara: You can actually telephone them someday. Yeah, if you manage to get through. Prabhupāda: Construct big, big temples, and keep it alive—by kīrtana , by book distribution, by distribution prasāda . "And now we have got big temple, let us eat prasāda and sleep. (laughing) Then temple, will also sleep. That's all." Now we should also keep it in mind, unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center, because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down, that which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he, he could not manage. There was debts, and he became disgusted. You see? Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in, in Germany I have . . . I have for instance in Munchen, in Munich, and in . . . Prabhupāda: There at least must be two, three men. Otherwise don't open. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, there are two or three men, but I visit them regularly. You know I . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You just living . . . keep them alive. Haṁsadūta: That's right, yeah. Prabhupāda: Simply because you have opened a center the business is finished, no. Haṁsadūta: No. I go. We go there . . . Prabhupāda: You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution, saṅkīr . . . busy. That is alive. Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, there are so many Indian temples or churches, they think the church is there, everything is finished. No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale. Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. We . . . we would . . . we would . . . everywhere it's like that. We attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And then more come and come. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Come on. So how you were allowed to enter? Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty. Prabhupāda: Ah. Last time you had difficulty. Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was . . . Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news? Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there. Prabhupāda: Your health is all right? Śivānanda: My health is fine. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities. Yes. Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudāmā was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 9, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . instructed, people must know. Then morality, spiritual education, will develop. But if the basic principle is wrong, then everything you have built upon it is wrong. But at the present moment the basic principle of knowledge is this ignorance, that everyone is thinking, "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman." Guest: Hmm. Hmm. Sectionalism. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this . . . first of all one should know that I am neither American nor Englishman nor Indian. I am spirit soul. Then further education can be possible. So we teach from the Bhagavad*-gītā this principle first, the basic principle of spiritual education, to understand that one is not this body, he is different from the . . . actually, everyone can experience if he is a little intelligent. Just like dead man: a dead man is lying, and his relatives crying, "Oh, my father is gone, father is gone, father is gone . . ." So from argumentative point of view I can say: "Why you are crying? Your father is lying here." "No, no, my father is gone." Then you have not seen your father. You have seen this body. So this body is not your father. You have to admit. Therefore, the person whom you saw, the body, that was all based on ignorance. That is going on. Guest: Even Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) got on to this one when she said: "Man is not material; he is spiritual." Even she found that out. Prabhupāda: He's spiritual. Guest (2): It was not very original, after all. Guest: It wasn't. I mean, none of these things are. They have all been said before. Prabhupāda: So we are, first of all, trying to educate people that, "You are not this body." Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: When you understand this principle, that he is not body, then further education on spiritual will begin. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if I am under the concept of this body, then whole structure is wrong. Everything is wrong. The basic principle is wrong. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if I wanted to do some good to you, and I take your shirt or coat and cleanse it very nicely, and you are hungry, I don't give you any food, is that service? Simply by cleansing the coat? You are not this coat or shirt. You are different from the coat and the shirt. I don't care for you, but I take care of your shirt and coat, is that very good service? Intelligent service? Suppose a man is fallen in the water. One man says: "I will save him," and he jumps in and takes out his coat and shirt and comes out, "I have saved this man." Is that saving? So the whole world is going on to save the coat and shirt, that's all. They do not know what is within the coat and shirt, and they are taking pride, "Oh, I have saved. Here is the coat and shirt." The whole basic principle is wrong. Guest: Of course. Hmm. Prabhupāda: So unless one understands that he is not this coat and shirt, he is beyond this, there is no question of spiritual education or advancement of knowledge. It is all false. Guest: The basis of spiritual education is certainly that man should see himself not as matter but as, as spirit . . . I would entirely agree with you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required. That is at the present moment required, because the whole world is going on under this wrong impression. Guest: Is there not a danger, though, in giving young people the idea that . . . Prabhupāda: This idea . . . Guest: . . . there is too much emphasis on personalization of God . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Guest: . . . in the pictures of . . . Prabhupāda: . . . no question of God in the beginning. We don't say about God. First of all you try to understand yourself, that you are not this body. We shall talk about God later on. We don't talk about God. Try to understand what you are. Are you this body, or something beyond this body? Then God understanding is far off; not in the beginning. Guest: I think what I am getting at is when young people in the West see a picture such as that, or a . . . Prabhupāda: But apart from this picture . . . Guest: They get an association . . . Prabhupāda: Apart from this, sir, when you talk of philosophy, you don't accept this picture. That's it. This is our ultimate. But in the beginning we speak of this philosophy, that you are not this body, and anything you have constructed on the concept of this body will be failure, because it is temporary. The body is temporary, therefore whatever you construct on this bodily concept of life, they are temporary. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ ( BG 2.18). This is the . . . this body is destructible, but the soul within the body, that is eternal. Guest: Well, that is the basis of all philosophy . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . and cannot be refuted. Prabhupāda: Antavanta ime . . . Guest (2): You see it as another West. Do you see my concern that a lot of young people . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Read it. Devotee: Antavanta ime . . . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just hear. Just hear this. Guest: (indistinct) . . . understanding of the movement . . . Devotee: This is the verse, "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." Prabhupāda: Antavanta ime dehā. Devotee: Oh. Prabhupāda: (to devotee) First of all hear, and then open. Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . papers the initial impact, in the best tradition of the advertising world because in terms of the product . . . first, first its very . . . (indistinct) . . . it has interest, and the second thing about the product, it leaves you into loop of it. So in this version . . . (break) Devotee: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore fight, O descendant of Bharata." Prabhupāda: This is destructible. But the principle within this body, that is not destructible. *This Bhagavad*-gītā is the first book of spiritual understanding. Apart from understanding of God, that is different. First of all, let everyone understand this principle, that he is not this body. Then others, understanding, will follow easily. Otherwise it is entangled. Mixing. *Guest: When it comes to studying the Bhagavad*-gītā , this is within the scope of your acolytes who have got the time and the stimulus to do this. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is reading. Guest: But, ah . . . Prabhupāda: We have got class, daily. Daily. Guest: And how you are able to reach a wider public with these ideas in a more condensed form? Are you . . . *Prabhupāda: He is opening schools. Bhagavad*-gītā , we shall send so many teachers. That is not difficult. We are not getting support, sufficient; *otherwise we can help everyone. As soon as you talk of Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it, "Oh, it is some Hindu God." Like that. Reject it. Biased. What can be done? But actually this is the knowledge. Everyone is standing on a false platform, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. But the platform is false, basically. Revatīnandana: So far the young people go, the minute we can get to them, they are immediately very interested. Guest: Hmm. *Revatīnandana: They like to know what is in this Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: The other day we went to see a school . . . Guest: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The small children, oh, they inquired very diligently. What about the questions they said? Guest: Hmm. Devotee: They were asking questions, ah, that, ah . . . this is young children, ten, eight, thirteen, fourteen, seventeen, ah . . . Prabhupāda: Within twelve years. They were all young, very young. Devotee: The ask questions like, "If the human being is the most advanced species of life, then why is it that the human culture is in so much trouble, confused, whereas the animals, or lesser species, are living in peace?" Prabhupāda: Very intelligent question. Devotee: All, every question was . . . Prabhupāda: That means the whole human civilization is challenged, that we have advanced human civilization, but we are less than animal. We cannot live even peacefully. Devotee: After the program . . . Prabhupāda: This is a very nice question. Guest (3): The answer is, we have much to learn from animals. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, we take animals lower than human being. But what you have done better than the animals? This is the question. We claim that we are master of the animals, but you are less than animal. How one who is less than animal, he can master over the animal? Guest: Well, there is a lot of talk of ecology, isn't it, these days, and pollution, but I think we haven't realized the wider interpretation of these terms . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, the thing is that time is now ripe when actual spiritual education should be given. If not to all . . . spiritual education is not meant for all. Just like, according to Bhagavad*-gītā and our Vedic civilization, there are four classes of men: the brāhmin , the kṣatriya , the vaiśya and the śūdra . The brāhmin means the most intellectual person—morally, spiritually and everything, scientifically, philosophically. That is a class. Next class the politicians, administrators, taking charge of the state, how to protect you. Ah, kṣatriya . *Kṣatriya means one who defends you from being hurt. Enemy is coming to hurt you, and king is giving you protection. They are called kṣatriyas . This is the meaning of kṣatriya . Brāhmin means one who knows the Absolute Truth. This brāhmin , kṣatriya and the vaiśya . Vaiśya means productive, pounds*-shillings-pence. Because they are mercantile class. And śūdra , ordinary worker. So this education . . . now these four classes of men should cooperate. Just like in my body there is brain, there is hand, there is belly and there is leg. Importance of leg is not so serious as the head. The importance of hand is not so serious as the head. You can cut your hand, you live. But if I cut your head, then you cannot live. But when we cooperate, the head is as important as the leg. If there is no leg, simply head, then you are imperfect. The four classes of men are there by nature. They should cooperate. But at the present moment the intellectual class of men, they are spoiling their energy in a different way. Therefore they should be . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 9, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . instructed, people must know. Then morality, spiritual education, will develop. But if the basic principle is wrong, then everything you have built upon it is wrong. But at the present moment the basic principle of knowledge is this ignorance, that everyone is thinking, "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman." Guest: Hmm. Hmm. Sectionalism. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this . . . first of all one should know that I am neither American nor Englishman nor Indian. I am spirit soul. Then further education can be possible. So we teach from the Bhagavad*-gītā this principle first, the basic principle of spiritual education, to understand that one is not this body, he is different from the . . . actually, everyone can experience if he is a little intelligent. Just like dead man: a dead man is lying, and his relatives crying, "Oh, my father is gone, father is gone, father is gone . . ." So from argumentative point of view I can say: "Why you are crying? Your father is lying here." "No, no, my father is gone." Then you have not seen your father. You have seen this body. So this body is not your father. You have to admit. Therefore, the person whom you saw, the body, that was all based on ignorance. That is going on. Guest: Even Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) got on to this one when she said: "Man is not material; he is spiritual." Even she found that out. Prabhupāda: He's spiritual. Guest (2): It was not very original, after all. Guest: It wasn't. I mean, none of these things are. They have all been said before. Prabhupāda: So we are, first of all, trying to educate people that, "You are not this body." Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: When you understand this principle, that he is not body, then further education on spiritual will begin. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if I am under the concept of this body, then whole structure is wrong. Everything is wrong. The basic principle is wrong. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if I wanted to do some good to you, and I take your shirt or coat and cleanse it very nicely, and you are hungry, I don't give you any food, is that service? Simply by cleansing the coat? You are not this coat or shirt. You are different from the coat and the shirt. I don't care for you, but I take care of your shirt and coat, is that very good service? Intelligent service? Suppose a man is fallen in the water. One man says: "I will save him," and he jumps in and takes out his coat and shirt and comes out, "I have saved this man." Is that saving? So the whole world is going on to save the coat and shirt, that's all. They do not know what is within the coat and shirt, and they are taking pride, "Oh, I have saved. Here is the coat and shirt." The whole basic principle is wrong. Guest: Of course. Hmm. Prabhupāda: So unless one understands that he is not this coat and shirt, he is beyond this, there is no question of spiritual education or advancement of knowledge. It is all false. Guest: The basis of spiritual education is certainly that man should see himself not as matter but as, as spirit . . . I would entirely agree with you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required. That is at the present moment required, because the whole world is going on under this wrong impression. Guest: Is there not a danger, though, in giving young people the idea that . . . Prabhupāda: This idea . . . Guest: . . . there is too much emphasis on personalization of God . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Guest: . . . in the pictures of . . . Prabhupāda: . . . no question of God in the beginning. We don't say about God. First of all you try to understand yourself, that you are not this body. We shall talk about God later on. We don't talk about God. Try to understand what you are. Are you this body, or something beyond this body? Then God understanding is far off; not in the beginning. Guest: I think what I am getting at is when young people in the West see a picture such as that, or a . . . Prabhupāda: But apart from this picture . . . Guest: They get an association . . . Prabhupāda: Apart from this, sir, when you talk of philosophy, you don't accept this picture. That's it. This is our ultimate. But in the beginning we speak of this philosophy, that you are not this body, and anything you have constructed on the concept of this body will be failure, because it is temporary. The body is temporary, therefore whatever you construct on this bodily concept of life, they are temporary. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ ( BG 2.18). This is the . . . this body is destructible, but the soul within the body, that is eternal. Guest: Well, that is the basis of all philosophy . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . and cannot be refuted. Prabhupāda: Antavanta ime . . . Guest (2): You see it as another West. Do you see my concern that a lot of young people . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Read it. Devotee: Antavanta ime . . . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just hear. Just hear this. Guest: (indistinct) . . . understanding of the movement . . . Devotee: This is the verse, "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." Prabhupāda: Antavanta ime dehā. Devotee: Oh. Prabhupāda: (to devotee) First of all hear, and then open. Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . papers the initial impact, in the best tradition of the advertising world because in terms of the product . . . first, first its very . . . (indistinct) . . . it has interest, and the second thing about the product, it leaves you into loop of it. So in this version . . . (break) Devotee: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore fight, O descendant of Bharata." Prabhupāda: This is destructible. But the principle within this body, that is not destructible. *This Bhagavad*-gītā is the first book of spiritual understanding. Apart from understanding of God, that is different. First of all, let everyone understand this principle, that he is not this body. Then others, understanding, will follow easily. Otherwise it is entangled. Mixing. *Guest: When it comes to studying the Bhagavad*-gītā , this is within the scope of your acolytes who have got the time and the stimulus to do this. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is reading. Guest: But, ah . . . Prabhupāda: We have got class, daily. Daily. Guest: And how you are able to reach a wider public with these ideas in a more condensed form? Are you . . . *Prabhupāda: He is opening schools. Bhagavad*-gītā , we shall send so many teachers. That is not difficult. We are not getting support, sufficient; *otherwise we can help everyone. As soon as you talk of Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it, "Oh, it is some Hindu God." Like that. Reject it. Biased. What can be done? But actually this is the knowledge. Everyone is standing on a false platform, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. But the platform is false, basically. Revatīnandana: So far the young people go, the minute we can get to them, they are immediately very interested. Guest: Hmm. *Revatīnandana: They like to know what is in this Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: The other day we went to see a school . . . Guest: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The small children, oh, they inquired very diligently. What about the questions they said? Guest: Hmm. Devotee: They were asking questions, ah, that, ah . . . this is young children, ten, eight, thirteen, fourteen, seventeen, ah . . . Prabhupāda: Within twelve years. They were all young, very young. Devotee: The ask questions like, "If the human being is the most advanced species of life, then why is it that the human culture is in so much trouble, confused, whereas the animals, or lesser species, are living in peace?" Prabhupāda: Very intelligent question. Devotee: All, every question was . . . Prabhupāda: That means the whole human civilization is challenged, that we have advanced human civilization, but we are less than animal. We cannot live even peacefully. Devotee: After the program . . . Prabhupāda: This is a very nice question. Guest (3): The answer is, we have much to learn from animals. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, we take animals lower than human being. But what you have done better than the animals? This is the question. We claim that we are master of the animals, but you are less than animal. How one who is less than animal, he can master over the animal? Guest: Well, there is a lot of talk of ecology, isn't it, these days, and pollution, but I think we haven't realized the wider interpretation of these terms . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, the thing is that time is now ripe when actual spiritual education should be given. If not to all . . . spiritual education is not meant for all. Just like, according to Bhagavad*-gītā and our Vedic civilization, there are four classes of men: the brāhmin , the kṣatriya , the vaiśya and the śūdra . The brāhmin means the most intellectual person—morally, spiritually and everything, scientifically, philosophically. That is a class. Next class the politicians, administrators, taking charge of the state, how to protect you. Ah, kṣatriya . *Kṣatriya means one who defends you from being hurt. Enemy is coming to hurt you, and king is giving you protection. They are called kṣatriyas . This is the meaning of kṣatriya . Brāhmin means one who knows the Absolute Truth. This brāhmin , kṣatriya and the vaiśya . Vaiśya means productive, pounds*-shillings-pence. Because they are mercantile class. And śūdra , ordinary worker. So this education . . . now these four classes of men should cooperate. Just like in my body there is brain, there is hand, there is belly and there is leg. Importance of leg is not so serious as the head. The importance of hand is not so serious as the head. You can cut your hand, you live. But if I cut your head, then you cannot live. But when we cooperate, the head is as important as the leg. If there is no leg, simply head, then you are imperfect. The four classes of men are there by nature. They should cooperate. But at the present moment the intellectual class of men, they are spoiling their energy in a different way. Therefore they should be . . . (break) (end) Interview -- August 11, 1972, London Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization. Journalist (1): Not simply because of the increased population? Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolish. Journalist (1): That's foolish? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons. Journalist (1): Oh, so someone . . . someone who's foolish . . . Prabhupāda: No. Even there is . . . just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There, there are millions and trillions . . . *There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, 8,000,000 species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being, out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized . . . so*-called civilized population. Journalist (1): And that's because, you would say, that we have the wrong . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I, I . . . we, we, we are all, we are are believer in God. You see? So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population, but it is the question of demonic civilization. Journalist (2): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That, and then demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of this world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food . . . Journalist (2): And you think there's enough food . . . Prabhupāda: There is enough so far as . . . (indistinct) . . . but we have made artificial division, "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy is everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy. Journalist (2): But the values of Western civilization have made that . . . Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial: "This is Africa," "This is America," "This is Europe . . ." Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got, have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities—not only human beings; birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, transcendental communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder should stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasāda . Journalist (1): That's a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization . . . Prabhupāda: Because . . . that is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: " Yow ! Yow ! Yow ! Why you are coming? Why you are coming?" Just like here—here, everywhere—the immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming . . . Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as . . . so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is . . . Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like you English people. They were welcome. Lord Christ was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit. And he is worshiped. That is Western civilization. Journalist (2): That's really what I was going to ask you. You must find life difficult, preaching the values of brotherhood in a society . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Natural brotherhood. Just like in a family, naturally, a father has got ten sons, they are brothers. But one son is intriguing how to take the whole property. Yes. That is going on. That is demonic. If every one of the father's sons thinks that, "Father is one, and father's property equally should be distributed . . ." But no. One cunning son is simply intriguing, "How to occupy the whole estate for me." Yes. That is going on all over the world. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Journalist (1): By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you are educated that God is one, Father is one, we are all sons, then the whole solution is made. Journalist (2): Because there's no need for any one person to have any more than anybody else. Prabhupāda: No. God has given everything. God has given everything, but if one party, becoming demonically powerful, he occupies everything, the others suffer. Journalist (2): Yes. But the difficulty is . . . and that's a very optimistic view of human nature. Prabhupāda: That is civilization. Journalist (2): But, no . . . Prabhupāda: That is not optimist; that is proper civilization. Journalist (2): Some people might say, who weren't perhaps as convinced as you . . . Prabhupāda: "Some people" means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see? Journalist (1): He rejects. *Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool*-headed that, "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this, if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right. There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so much excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization. Journalist (2): Yes. I know you define that as civilization. But I was trying to suggest that some societies, and indeed some individual personalities, are avaricious, seemingly by nature. How do you . . . well, graft and greed and . . . Revatīnandana: Sometimes that is their natural position. Journalist (2): (indistinct) . . . disease. *Prabhupāda: It is a disease. Yes. Disease. Lust and greediness. There are three qualities in the world, material world. One is called sattva*-guṇa , one is called rajo-guṇa , another is called tamo-guṇa . Goodness. Rajo-guṇa is passion, and tamo-guṇa is darkness. So at the present moment these two guṇas , qualities, darkness and passion, are prevalent. Goodness gone. Goodness. And the darkness and passion, the symptoms are greediness and lust. People are being educated to become greedy and lusty. Yes. That's all. Nobody is being educated to become good. So what is the use of these rascal universities? If they are producing greedy and lusty people, then what is the use of education? Vidyā dadāti namratā . Education means everyone should be gentleman. That is education. And if you produce lusty and greedy people, there is no . . . this is animal education. The animals are lusty and greedy. (break) . . . (indistinct) Journalist (2): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir? Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone? Journalist (2): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about . . . Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire, and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, koto caturānana , mari mari jāota (Śrīla Vidyāpati). There are so many Brahmās come also, and they die. So this kind of empirical, imperial onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were . . . just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay. Journalist (2): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way. Prabhupāda: If you cannot . . . if you remain demon, then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become . . . there are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will . . . they will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way. Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst . . . Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization. Journalist (2): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not? Journalist (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that, then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that? Journalist (2): Well nothing, but that . . . Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," what is the gain? Journalist (2): I've never been able to understand what the gain was either. Prabhupāda: Now just try to understand: Christian religion is good, provided the followers of the Christian are actually following. But they are not following. They are not following. They are simply artificially stamping, "I am Christian." In the Christian religion the first order is "Thou shall not kill." But the Christians are very expert in killing. So who is Christian? First of all let me see. Their First Commandment is, Lord Jesus Christ, that "Thou shall not kill." Now, everyone is killing, and still he is Christian. So this kind of Christian religion or Hindu religion, what will be the benefit? If you don't follow, simply you stamp yourself that, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim . . ." That is going on. Nobody is Christian. Nobody is Hindu. Nobody is Muslim. Everyone is demon. Everyone is demon! That is our proposal. There is no Christian, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim. That is our proposal. Journalist (1): Except people who have accepted the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, presumably. That . . . Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. First of all, you were talking about the Christian religion. I say that Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion, there may be different religions, but what is the aim of religion? That you should understand. The aim of religion is to know God. If you profess some religion, but if I ask you what is God, if you cannot explain, then what is the use of your becoming religious? Journalist (2): Probably none. But people like to have, or seem to like to have, a religion. Prabhupāda: They don't like. They don't like God. They don't like God. As soon as somebody speaks of God, they say: "They are crazy." So actually there is no Christian, no Hindu, no Muslim. All demons. That's all. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: Well, become religious. If you are really Christian, that is all right. But you are not Christian, because you are violating the orders of Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed his life, and he says that he atoned for your sins, but you are not stopping your sinful life, and still you are claiming to be Christian. The fun is going on. Yes. Actually there is no Christian. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice religion. Yes. Journalist (2): Do you think that you can help large numbers of people in this country understand that . . . Prabhupāda: I can help everyone, provided he takes my help. If you refuse my help, how can I help you? Journalist (2): No, I'm merely suggesting that you would . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. What is our . . .? I am helping. I am asking people to become God conscious. But if you refuse to become God conscious, how can I help you? Journalist (2): But to become God conscious, do you think they have to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No. You become devotee of God. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then . . . you have got some idea of God? Journalist (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Or not? Journalist (1): You could accept the idea of God in another manner than your Church? Prabhupāda: Suppose . . . we are giving Kṛṣṇa, presenting Kṛṣṇa, as God, and we are giving God's name, address, place, everything. Yes. Yes. (laughter) Don't laugh; it is serious. If you refuse to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God, give me His address, name and occupation. Can you give me? Journalist (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? You take from me. Why you are refusing? If you do not know, then take it from me. And if you know better than me, you give it to me. You do not know; still you will not accept. Then what is your position? That you don't want to know God. Journalist (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When I say: "Do you know what is God?" you say: "No." When I present God, you say: "Why shall I accept? It is your God." At least we have got some God. But you know . . . do not know what is God. So my position is better than you. Journalist (2): Well, if you accept. Again, it's a slight digression. Prabhupāda: No. You have no idea of God. You cannot give name, address, occupation of God. I can give. Journalist (2): Do you need to have a name and address and occupation for God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like when you come, I ask you what you are: "What is your name? What is your address? What is occupation?" This is the first introduction. If I do not know your name, address, occupation, then what is the use of talking with you? Journalist (2): Well, I would . . . again, it's a very interesting concept, because often in Western civilization God is defined more as an idea than as a . . . something . . . Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. God is fact. God is a person like you and me. You can talk with Him, you can see Him. That is God. Not idea. We are talking with Kṛṣṇa. We are taking His instruction and abiding by His order. It is not an idea; it is fact! That is God. Journalist (2): That's a difficult thing for people . . . Prabhupāda: Not difficult thing. If you do not take, it is difficult. If you accept, there is no difficulty. They are accepting. There is no difficulty. They have also belonged to Western country. They are happy. And ask him. Journalist (2): I don't dispute that they are, but you said that they are . . . Prabhupāda: I am saying we'll give you all information of God. Journalist (2): Yes. I'm not suggesting that they're not happy, nor that your followers aren't convinced that you're right. Prabhupāda: So you can become also happy, you can know also God—provided you take. If you don't take, how can I help? Journalist (2): What I'm suggesting is, I mean trying to suggest is that for a large number of people . . . Prabhupāda: Well, large number . . . large number . . . when, when you speak of something good, you cannot expect many. Just like if you want to sell diamond, you cannot expect that the whole population of England will purchase it. When there is question of diamond, the customer also must be very rich. Similarly, to understand God is not so difficult or . . . easy job. Only the fortunate, pious, nice people can understand God. Not ordinary. Journalist (2): And only get to work at it, find the time to try it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But we are giving facilities to everyone to understand God. That is our mission. (knock on door) Journalist (2): But it does require a certain price for them to pay as individuals. Prabhupāda: No price. Simply to become sincere. Journalist (2): To sincerely try to find Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are sincerely anxious to know God, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. Tatra laulyam eka*-mūlyam. One must be very much anxious that, "I must know God." Then God is revealed. There is no question of paying so much money. Our transaction in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no monetary transaction. I did not pay anything to them, neither they are paying to me. It is a question of understanding. Journalist (2): Yes. I'm only suggesting that you were saying already that only people who were kind or gentle perhaps would find it easy to start. There are obviously, as you were saying, lots of people who are not so kind or gentle, and presumably would find it more difficult. Prabhupāda: No. They may not be gentle, but we are gentle. Please come to us and learn. They may not be gentle. We can create gentle, provided he follows. Journalist (2): Is that one single . . . Dhanañjaya: (background talk) Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . the BBC One, Radio. They're . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can also note—this is common, talking of God. Journalist (2): One last question. Is there a single, simple . . . (indistinct) . . . that you could give to people who don't know anything about Kṛṣṇa consciousness to help them to understand it? Is there one simple, single . . . Prabhupāda: Very simple: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. If God is proprietor, He must be enjoyer. And God is the supreme friend. Journalist (2): Thank you very much. How long're you going to be . . .? Prabhupāda: If you simply understand these three things. This is fact. Journalist (2): God is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. Journalist (2): Enjoyer. Prabhupāda: And God is the supreme friend. Now if you analyze . . . now you cannot say that you are the proprietor of this land. Somebody else is. Just like the land was there before your birth, and the land will remain there after your death, so during your span of life you are simply claiming, "This is mine." But before your birth, after your death, it belongs to somebody else, the supreme proprietor. And because He is the supreme proprietor, He is the supreme enjoyer. And He is the supreme friend in this way, that He is giving all necessities of life to everyone. Nobody can be better friend than God. Journalist (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: So these three things, if you try to understand—that God is the proprietor, God is the supreme friend and God is the supreme enjoyer, then all problems solved. Journalist (2): Thank you. Journalist (3): May I come in another queue for BBC Radio 4, just to tell me in fact what is the purpose of your visit to London? Prabhupāda: To teach you these things, as we were just talking with your friend, that God is proprietor, God is friend of everyone and God is the supreme enjoyer. Journalist (3): I understand in fact that you are a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. What does this mean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist (3): Can you tell me what it means? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Devotee of God. Journalist (3): But what is the extent of your purity? Prabhupāda: What is that? Journalist (3): What how . . . how, what do you mean by being pure? Does it mean that you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. I am seeing every moment. And if you want to see, I can show you. (laughter) Journalist (3): Please do. Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not so easy. It is not so cheap that you want to see, immediately I can show you. You have to become student like him. Then you can see. Journalist (3): I would have to become a member of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Not only member; a student like him. There are many members, they pay some money. But they are learning according to my direction. Journalist (3): Can you tell me what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: First of all you have understood this thing or not? If you want to see God, you have to become a student like him. Are you prepared to that? Journalist (3): I haven't got the opportunity to become a student. Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of seeing God. Don't talk of seeing God. God seeing is not so cheap. You talk about seeing God. If you want to see God, then you have (to) become a student how to see God. Journalist (3): Can I see God by becoming a Christian, Christian? Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was speaking, that if you are true Christian, you will see God. But who is true Christian let me see first of all. Journalist (3): Have you got a particular mission for London? Prabhupāda: I have particular mission for the whole world. Why London? London is included in the world. Journalist (3): What is that mission? Prabhupāda: That mission is to make you understand what is God. You cannot say what is God. If I ask you, can you say what is God? Journalist (3): I can't. Can you? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn. Journalist (3): Can you say what is God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Therefore you have to become student. Journalist (3): Tell me what is God. Prabhupāda: First of all, you become a student; otherwise you'll not be understand . . . that I say: "God is the supreme enjoyer, God is the supreme proprietor." That I have already told. Can you understand this? Can you refute this, that God is not the supreme proprietor? Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want? Prabhupāda: No, why you are going away? You are talking one thing and then going another thing. Journalist (3): I have to go, I'm afraid. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then I cannot waste my time. You question one thing. Make a solution. Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want to become students? Prabhupāda: Tell him, Bhagavān. Bhagavān: We want everyone to become our students. No one has a good understanding of what is God. Journalist (3): I can't get this on the microphone. Prabhupāda: You can take instruction from the students who are actually trying to understand God. Journalist (3): I read somewhere that possibly you wanted to convert people who were politicians and businessmen. Why? Prabhupāda: Who said? Where you have got this idea that I am trying to convert politicians? Where? Journalist (3): Well, I read it somewhere. In a newspaper. Prabhupāda: Where is that newspaper? This is not a fact. You are telling something which is not a fact. Journalist (3): You want to convert everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone requires to understand God. Why politicians and newspapermen? Everyone. God is for everyone. Everyone requires . . . the human life is meant for understanding God. Why politicians and businessmen? Without knowing God, he cannot be happy, whatever he may be. Journalist (3): Do you think if people had a deeper understanding of God, a spiritual consciousness . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he will be happy. Journalist (3): Do you think it would solve the problems of . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Certainly. Journalist (3): Which problems? Prabhupāda: All problems. Whatever problems you have got. Social, political, religious, cultural, everything. Journalist (3): The problems that exist in Ireland and India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. You simply give education to understand what is God, then all problems will be solved. Journalist (3): What about yourself? How long have you had this understanding and awareness of God? Prabhupāda: How long you want? (laughter) I have had this understanding from my birth. My father was God conscious; he taught me how to become God conscious. Journalist (3): And you are in fact the spiritual leader of these students. What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Huh? Because I want to teach them what is God. If anyone is interested with God, I can teach him. Journalist (3): How long does it take? Prabhupāda: It takes one second. Journalist (3): Well, can we do it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You accept, surrender to God, then you become God conscious. Journalist (3): And what happens to me then? *Prabhupāda: Then you become happy. And the Bhagavad*-gītā says that God said that, "You surrender unto Me, I give you protection from all sinful reaction." That is the statement of God. So if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God that, "God, so long I was forgotten about You. Now I surrender unto You. You do whatever You like," everything is all right. Journalist (3): Thank you. Thank you for your time. (break) Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: We are simply presenting the fact that everything belongs to God. God is the supreme friend and God is the maintainer of everyone, everything, and He is the supreme enjoyer. These three things if we understand, then the whole problem is solved. Now, I say that God is the proprietor. Now you refute. Those who will not accept, that "God is not proprietor, I am the proprietor," this requires discussion. How you become proprietor? *Bhagavad*-gītā says, God says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). I am not manufacturing this. It is stated in the śāstra . God is the supreme enjoyer. He is the proprietor. He should be enjoyer. Just like here, if I am the proprietor of a factory, so the profit should come to me; similarly, if God is the proprietor of everything, then we cannot enjoy anything without the sanction of God. We therefore eat prasāda . We know that the fruit, flowers or grains or milk, whatever we are offering to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given us. You cannot manufacture these things, nice oranges, in factory. You cannot manufacture rice or wheat. Actually, God has given. That is God consciousness. Anything, even those who are eating animals, they cannot manufacture animals in the factory. That is also God's creation. *So in the Vedas it is said, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), "That one supreme living being is supplying food or necessities of life to all living entities." That's a fact. He is the maintainer. He is the giver of food. We are simply handling. That's all. Everything. Even this house or your car, everything, the material ingredients are supplied by God. The intelligence is also given by God. So by God*-given intelligence, by God-given ingredients, you are preparing something, and you are claiming that, "It is mine." Why? Suppose if I give somebody intelligence, "You make this table like this," I give ingredients, I give him money, then after the table is manufactured, if the carpenter says: "It is mine," is that proper? "Sir, I have given you money, I have given you the wood, I have given you the intelligence, I have maintained you. How it belongs to you?" So this is going on. Everything God's, and we are claiming "mine." Ahaṁ mameti , janasya moho 'yam (SB 5.5.8). This is called illusion. I am not the proprietor, but I am thinking I am. This is called illusion. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to remove this illusion, to accept the real fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is nothing that we . . . (indistinct) . . . manufactured artificially. To come to your real position. Just like a madman has got in some consciousness, he's thinking so many crazy ways. That sort of consciousness will not help us. If we actually come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is our perfection. (break) God is the proprietor, God is the enjoyer and God is the maintainer. Three things. So our this movement is nothing new. It is oldest and authorized. So now if we can push on this movement, that is the greatest welfare activity in the human . . . (break) (end) Interview -- August 11, 1972, London Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization. Journalist (1): Not simply because of the increased population? Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolish. Journalist (1): That's foolish? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons. Journalist (1): Oh, so someone . . . someone who's foolish . . . Prabhupāda: No. Even there is . . . just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There, there are millions and trillions . . . *There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, 8,000,000 species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being, out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized . . . so*-called civilized population. Journalist (1): And that's because, you would say, that we have the wrong . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I, I . . . we, we, we are all, we are are believer in God. You see? So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population, but it is the question of demonic civilization. Journalist (2): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That, and then demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of this world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food . . . Journalist (2): And you think there's enough food . . . Prabhupāda: There is enough so far as . . . (indistinct) . . . but we have made artificial division, "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy is everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy. Journalist (2): But the values of Western civilization have made that . . . Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial: "This is Africa," "This is America," "This is Europe . . ." Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got, have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities—not only human beings; birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, transcendental communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder should stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasāda . Journalist (1): That's a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization . . . Prabhupāda: Because . . . that is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: " Yow ! Yow ! Yow ! Why you are coming? Why you are coming?" Just like here—here, everywhere—the immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming . . . Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as . . . so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is . . . Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like you English people. They were welcome. Lord Christ was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit. And he is worshiped. That is Western civilization. Journalist (2): That's really what I was going to ask you. You must find life difficult, preaching the values of brotherhood in a society . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Natural brotherhood. Just like in a family, naturally, a father has got ten sons, they are brothers. But one son is intriguing how to take the whole property. Yes. That is going on. That is demonic. If every one of the father's sons thinks that, "Father is one, and father's property equally should be distributed . . ." But no. One cunning son is simply intriguing, "How to occupy the whole estate for me." Yes. That is going on all over the world. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Journalist (1): By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you are educated that God is one, Father is one, we are all sons, then the whole solution is made. Journalist (2): Because there's no need for any one person to have any more than anybody else. Prabhupāda: No. God has given everything. God has given everything, but if one party, becoming demonically powerful, he occupies everything, the others suffer. Journalist (2): Yes. But the difficulty is . . . and that's a very optimistic view of human nature. Prabhupāda: That is civilization. Journalist (2): But, no . . . Prabhupāda: That is not optimist; that is proper civilization. Journalist (2): Some people might say, who weren't perhaps as convinced as you . . . Prabhupāda: "Some people" means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see? Journalist (1): He rejects. *Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool*-headed that, "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this, if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right. There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so much excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization. Journalist (2): Yes. I know you define that as civilization. But I was trying to suggest that some societies, and indeed some individual personalities, are avaricious, seemingly by nature. How do you . . . well, graft and greed and . . . Revatīnandana: Sometimes that is their natural position. Journalist (2): (indistinct) . . . disease. *Prabhupāda: It is a disease. Yes. Disease. Lust and greediness. There are three qualities in the world, material world. One is called sattva*-guṇa , one is called rajo-guṇa , another is called tamo-guṇa . Goodness. Rajo-guṇa is passion, and tamo-guṇa is darkness. So at the present moment these two guṇas , qualities, darkness and passion, are prevalent. Goodness gone. Goodness. And the darkness and passion, the symptoms are greediness and lust. People are being educated to become greedy and lusty. Yes. That's all. Nobody is being educated to become good. So what is the use of these rascal universities? If they are producing greedy and lusty people, then what is the use of education? Vidyā dadāti namratā . Education means everyone should be gentleman. That is education. And if you produce lusty and greedy people, there is no . . . this is animal education. The animals are lusty and greedy. (break) . . . (indistinct) Journalist (2): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir? Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone? Journalist (2): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about . . . Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire, and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, koto caturānana , mari mari jāota (Śrīla Vidyāpati). There are so many Brahmās come also, and they die. So this kind of empirical, imperial onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were . . . just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay. Journalist (2): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way. Prabhupāda: If you cannot . . . if you remain demon, then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become . . . there are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will . . . they will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way. Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst . . . Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization. Journalist (2): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not? Journalist (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that, then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that? Journalist (2): Well nothing, but that . . . Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," what is the gain? Journalist (2): I've never been able to understand what the gain was either. Prabhupāda: Now just try to understand: Christian religion is good, provided the followers of the Christian are actually following. But they are not following. They are not following. They are simply artificially stamping, "I am Christian." In the Christian religion the first order is "Thou shall not kill." But the Christians are very expert in killing. So who is Christian? First of all let me see. Their First Commandment is, Lord Jesus Christ, that "Thou shall not kill." Now, everyone is killing, and still he is Christian. So this kind of Christian religion or Hindu religion, what will be the benefit? If you don't follow, simply you stamp yourself that, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim . . ." That is going on. Nobody is Christian. Nobody is Hindu. Nobody is Muslim. Everyone is demon. Everyone is demon! That is our proposal. There is no Christian, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim. That is our proposal. Journalist (1): Except people who have accepted the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, presumably. That . . . Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. First of all, you were talking about the Christian religion. I say that Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion, there may be different religions, but what is the aim of religion? That you should understand. The aim of religion is to know God. If you profess some religion, but if I ask you what is God, if you cannot explain, then what is the use of your becoming religious? Journalist (2): Probably none. But people like to have, or seem to like to have, a religion. Prabhupāda: They don't like. They don't like God. They don't like God. As soon as somebody speaks of God, they say: "They are crazy." So actually there is no Christian, no Hindu, no Muslim. All demons. That's all. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: Well, become religious. If you are really Christian, that is all right. But you are not Christian, because you are violating the orders of Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed his life, and he says that he atoned for your sins, but you are not stopping your sinful life, and still you are claiming to be Christian. The fun is going on. Yes. Actually there is no Christian. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice religion. Yes. Journalist (2): Do you think that you can help large numbers of people in this country understand that . . . Prabhupāda: I can help everyone, provided he takes my help. If you refuse my help, how can I help you? Journalist (2): No, I'm merely suggesting that you would . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. What is our . . .? I am helping. I am asking people to become God conscious. But if you refuse to become God conscious, how can I help you? Journalist (2): But to become God conscious, do you think they have to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No. You become devotee of God. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then . . . you have got some idea of God? Journalist (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Or not? Journalist (1): You could accept the idea of God in another manner than your Church? Prabhupāda: Suppose . . . we are giving Kṛṣṇa, presenting Kṛṣṇa, as God, and we are giving God's name, address, place, everything. Yes. Yes. (laughter) Don't laugh; it is serious. If you refuse to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God, give me His address, name and occupation. Can you give me? Journalist (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? You take from me. Why you are refusing? If you do not know, then take it from me. And if you know better than me, you give it to me. You do not know; still you will not accept. Then what is your position? That you don't want to know God. Journalist (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When I say: "Do you know what is God?" you say: "No." When I present God, you say: "Why shall I accept? It is your God." At least we have got some God. But you know . . . do not know what is God. So my position is better than you. Journalist (2): Well, if you accept. Again, it's a slight digression. Prabhupāda: No. You have no idea of God. You cannot give name, address, occupation of God. I can give. Journalist (2): Do you need to have a name and address and occupation for God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like when you come, I ask you what you are: "What is your name? What is your address? What is occupation?" This is the first introduction. If I do not know your name, address, occupation, then what is the use of talking with you? Journalist (2): Well, I would . . . again, it's a very interesting concept, because often in Western civilization God is defined more as an idea than as a . . . something . . . Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. God is fact. God is a person like you and me. You can talk with Him, you can see Him. That is God. Not idea. We are talking with Kṛṣṇa. We are taking His instruction and abiding by His order. It is not an idea; it is fact! That is God. Journalist (2): That's a difficult thing for people . . . Prabhupāda: Not difficult thing. If you do not take, it is difficult. If you accept, there is no difficulty. They are accepting. There is no difficulty. They have also belonged to Western country. They are happy. And ask him. Journalist (2): I don't dispute that they are, but you said that they are . . . Prabhupāda: I am saying we'll give you all information of God. Journalist (2): Yes. I'm not suggesting that they're not happy, nor that your followers aren't convinced that you're right. Prabhupāda: So you can become also happy, you can know also God—provided you take. If you don't take, how can I help? Journalist (2): What I'm suggesting is, I mean trying to suggest is that for a large number of people . . . Prabhupāda: Well, large number . . . large number . . . when, when you speak of something good, you cannot expect many. Just like if you want to sell diamond, you cannot expect that the whole population of England will purchase it. When there is question of diamond, the customer also must be very rich. Similarly, to understand God is not so difficult or . . . easy job. Only the fortunate, pious, nice people can understand God. Not ordinary. Journalist (2): And only get to work at it, find the time to try it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But we are giving facilities to everyone to understand God. That is our mission. (knock on door) Journalist (2): But it does require a certain price for them to pay as individuals. Prabhupāda: No price. Simply to become sincere. Journalist (2): To sincerely try to find Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are sincerely anxious to know God, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. Tatra laulyam eka*-mūlyam. One must be very much anxious that, "I must know God." Then God is revealed. There is no question of paying so much money. Our transaction in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no monetary transaction. I did not pay anything to them, neither they are paying to me. It is a question of understanding. Journalist (2): Yes. I'm only suggesting that you were saying already that only people who were kind or gentle perhaps would find it easy to start. There are obviously, as you were saying, lots of people who are not so kind or gentle, and presumably would find it more difficult. Prabhupāda: No. They may not be gentle, but we are gentle. Please come to us and learn. They may not be gentle. We can create gentle, provided he follows. Journalist (2): Is that one single . . . Dhanañjaya: (background talk) Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . the BBC One, Radio. They're . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can also note—this is common, talking of God. Journalist (2): One last question. Is there a single, simple . . . (indistinct) . . . that you could give to people who don't know anything about Kṛṣṇa consciousness to help them to understand it? Is there one simple, single . . . Prabhupāda: Very simple: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. If God is proprietor, He must be enjoyer. And God is the supreme friend. Journalist (2): Thank you very much. How long're you going to be . . .? Prabhupāda: If you simply understand these three things. This is fact. Journalist (2): God is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. Journalist (2): Enjoyer. Prabhupāda: And God is the supreme friend. Now if you analyze . . . now you cannot say that you are the proprietor of this land. Somebody else is. Just like the land was there before your birth, and the land will remain there after your death, so during your span of life you are simply claiming, "This is mine." But before your birth, after your death, it belongs to somebody else, the supreme proprietor. And because He is the supreme proprietor, He is the supreme enjoyer. And He is the supreme friend in this way, that He is giving all necessities of life to everyone. Nobody can be better friend than God. Journalist (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: So these three things, if you try to understand—that God is the proprietor, God is the supreme friend and God is the supreme enjoyer, then all problems solved. Journalist (2): Thank you. Journalist (3): May I come in another queue for BBC Radio 4, just to tell me in fact what is the purpose of your visit to London? Prabhupāda: To teach you these things, as we were just talking with your friend, that God is proprietor, God is friend of everyone and God is the supreme enjoyer. Journalist (3): I understand in fact that you are a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. What does this mean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist (3): Can you tell me what it means? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Devotee of God. Journalist (3): But what is the extent of your purity? Prabhupāda: What is that? Journalist (3): What how . . . how, what do you mean by being pure? Does it mean that you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. I am seeing every moment. And if you want to see, I can show you. (laughter) Journalist (3): Please do. Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not so easy. It is not so cheap that you want to see, immediately I can show you. You have to become student like him. Then you can see. Journalist (3): I would have to become a member of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Not only member; a student like him. There are many members, they pay some money. But they are learning according to my direction. Journalist (3): Can you tell me what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: First of all you have understood this thing or not? If you want to see God, you have to become a student like him. Are you prepared to that? Journalist (3): I haven't got the opportunity to become a student. Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of seeing God. Don't talk of seeing God. God seeing is not so cheap. You talk about seeing God. If you want to see God, then you have (to) become a student how to see God. Journalist (3): Can I see God by becoming a Christian, Christian? Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was speaking, that if you are true Christian, you will see God. But who is true Christian let me see first of all. Journalist (3): Have you got a particular mission for London? Prabhupāda: I have particular mission for the whole world. Why London? London is included in the world. Journalist (3): What is that mission? Prabhupāda: That mission is to make you understand what is God. You cannot say what is God. If I ask you, can you say what is God? Journalist (3): I can't. Can you? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn. Journalist (3): Can you say what is God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Therefore you have to become student. Journalist (3): Tell me what is God. Prabhupāda: First of all, you become a student; otherwise you'll not be understand . . . that I say: "God is the supreme enjoyer, God is the supreme proprietor." That I have already told. Can you understand this? Can you refute this, that God is not the supreme proprietor? Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want? Prabhupāda: No, why you are going away? You are talking one thing and then going another thing. Journalist (3): I have to go, I'm afraid. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then I cannot waste my time. You question one thing. Make a solution. Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want to become students? Prabhupāda: Tell him, Bhagavān. Bhagavān: We want everyone to become our students. No one has a good understanding of what is God. Journalist (3): I can't get this on the microphone. Prabhupāda: You can take instruction from the students who are actually trying to understand God. Journalist (3): I read somewhere that possibly you wanted to convert people who were politicians and businessmen. Why? Prabhupāda: Who said? Where you have got this idea that I am trying to convert politicians? Where? Journalist (3): Well, I read it somewhere. In a newspaper. Prabhupāda: Where is that newspaper? This is not a fact. You are telling something which is not a fact. Journalist (3): You want to convert everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone requires to understand God. Why politicians and newspapermen? Everyone. God is for everyone. Everyone requires . . . the human life is meant for understanding God. Why politicians and businessmen? Without knowing God, he cannot be happy, whatever he may be. Journalist (3): Do you think if people had a deeper understanding of God, a spiritual consciousness . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he will be happy. Journalist (3): Do you think it would solve the problems of . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Certainly. Journalist (3): Which problems? Prabhupāda: All problems. Whatever problems you have got. Social, political, religious, cultural, everything. Journalist (3): The problems that exist in Ireland and India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. You simply give education to understand what is God, then all problems will be solved. Journalist (3): What about yourself? How long have you had this understanding and awareness of God? Prabhupāda: How long you want? (laughter) I have had this understanding from my birth. My father was God conscious; he taught me how to become God conscious. Journalist (3): And you are in fact the spiritual leader of these students. What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Huh? Because I want to teach them what is God. If anyone is interested with God, I can teach him. Journalist (3): How long does it take? Prabhupāda: It takes one second. Journalist (3): Well, can we do it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You accept, surrender to God, then you become God conscious. Journalist (3): And what happens to me then? *Prabhupāda: Then you become happy. And the Bhagavad*-gītā says that God said that, "You surrender unto Me, I give you protection from all sinful reaction." That is the statement of God. So if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God that, "God, so long I was forgotten about You. Now I surrender unto You. You do whatever You like," everything is all right. Journalist (3): Thank you. Thank you for your time. (break) Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: We are simply presenting the fact that everything belongs to God. God is the supreme friend and God is the maintainer of everyone, everything, and He is the supreme enjoyer. These three things if we understand, then the whole problem is solved. Now, I say that God is the proprietor. Now you refute. Those who will not accept, that "God is not proprietor, I am the proprietor," this requires discussion. How you become proprietor? *Bhagavad*-gītā says, God says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). I am not manufacturing this. It is stated in the śāstra . God is the supreme enjoyer. He is the proprietor. He should be enjoyer. Just like here, if I am the proprietor of a factory, so the profit should come to me; similarly, if God is the proprietor of everything, then we cannot enjoy anything without the sanction of God. We therefore eat prasāda . We know that the fruit, flowers or grains or milk, whatever we are offering to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given us. You cannot manufacture these things, nice oranges, in factory. You cannot manufacture rice or wheat. Actually, God has given. That is God consciousness. Anything, even those who are eating animals, they cannot manufacture animals in the factory. That is also God's creation. *So in the Vedas it is said, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), "That one supreme living being is supplying food or necessities of life to all living entities." That's a fact. He is the maintainer. He is the giver of food. We are simply handling. That's all. Everything. Even this house or your car, everything, the material ingredients are supplied by God. The intelligence is also given by God. So by God*-given intelligence, by God-given ingredients, you are preparing something, and you are claiming that, "It is mine." Why? Suppose if I give somebody intelligence, "You make this table like this," I give ingredients, I give him money, then after the table is manufactured, if the carpenter says: "It is mine," is that proper? "Sir, I have given you money, I have given you the wood, I have given you the intelligence, I have maintained you. How it belongs to you?" So this is going on. Everything God's, and we are claiming "mine." Ahaṁ mameti , janasya moho 'yam (SB 5.5.8). This is called illusion. I am not the proprietor, but I am thinking I am. This is called illusion. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to remove this illusion, to accept the real fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is nothing that we . . . (indistinct) . . . manufactured artificially. To come to your real position. Just like a madman has got in some consciousness, he's thinking so many crazy ways. That sort of consciousness will not help us. If we actually come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is our perfection. (break) God is the proprietor, God is the enjoyer and God is the maintainer. Three things. So our this movement is nothing new. It is oldest and authorized. So now if we can push on this movement, that is the greatest welfare activity in the human . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 12, 1972, London *Prabhupāda: . . . all*-round. Not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion." Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic . . . less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that? Devotee: Yes, I've heard. Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all realize, then challenge. *(break) Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ (Hitopadeśa). That is the special distinction, that their life, human life, must be based on dharma , religion. They have rejected dharma . That is another type of frustration, because the so*-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. *And therefore people become . . . revolted, "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people, they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink gāñjā . You have been Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple? Hamsadutta: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen that gosāi ? Hamsadutta: Is he still there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhā*-Dāmodara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to Rādhā-Dāmodara, managing. Api cet su-durācāro ( BG 9.30). ( japa ) (break) . . . should think that we have got to say so many things to the people, huh, about this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute. Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them. *Prabhupāda: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so*-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—all round, all included. Revatīnandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. (aside) That is Indian śaṅkha ? Woman: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That in your hand, bangle, white bangle. Woman: Ah, elephant? Prabhupāda: It is called śaṅkha . It is called śaṅkha . From conchshell. It is made from conchshell. Where you have purchased it? Woman: I'm afraid this is ivory. Prabhupāda: Ivory? Oh. There is similar made from conchshell. Woman: Yes, I had those in Allahabad. I was going there to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Allahabad? Conch, from conchshell? It is especially used in Bengal. Woman: Yes *Prabhupāda: A woman . . . that is an auspicious sign that she is with her husband, to have conchshell bangle. Śaṅkha*-sārī . A woman dressed śaṅkha and sārī , śaṅkha-sārī . They don't require any other ornament. One nice sārī and śaṅkha . That is Indian conception of woman having husband. *That is distinction between widow and a woman having husband. Widow will not accept sārī . All finished. Vedic culture, widow should finish her life after having the husband. Saha*-gamana. Satī . Yes. (break) . . . have got enough to preach. People will like it. Devotee: Yes, I think so. Yes. I think we have enough. *Prabhupāda: They'll like. Enough ingredients to preach. Simply one has to become intelligent how to express. The, what is called, outlines of thought are already there. You read one line, you can speak half an hour. They are so full of meaning—provided you can express the meanings. So we are not reading all the lines. We are going quickly from one śloka to another. Otherwise, if we explained each line of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Just like my Guru Mahārāja explained the first śloka for three months in Dhaka. *(break) . . . after this verse, he explained for three months. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained ātmārāma-śloka in sixty*-four ways. That is described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya . Sixty-four ways. *Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained in nine ways. He did not touch on those nine ways. Setting aside those nine ways, personally He explained in sixty*-four ways. Formerly such scholars were there, such religious persons were there. Therefore people were happy. What these rascals speak? Now there is Freud's philosophy and Darwin's theory. Revatīnandana: It's nice, because here people will listen. In India they won't listen, and in America they can't listen; they're so degraded. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 12, 1972, London *Prabhupāda: . . . all*-round. Not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion." Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic . . . less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that? Devotee: Yes, I've heard. Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all realize, then challenge. *(break) Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ (Hitopadeśa). That is the special distinction, that their life, human life, must be based on dharma , religion. They have rejected dharma . That is another type of frustration, because the so*-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. *And therefore people become . . . revolted, "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people, they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink gāñjā . You have been Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple? Hamsadutta: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen that gosāi ? Hamsadutta: Is he still there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhā*-Dāmodara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to Rādhā-Dāmodara, managing. Api cet su-durācāro ( BG 9.30). ( japa ) (break) . . . should think that we have got to say so many things to the people, huh, about this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute. Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them. *Prabhupāda: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so*-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—all round, all included. Revatīnandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. (aside) That is Indian śaṅkha ? Woman: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That in your hand, bangle, white bangle. Woman: Ah, elephant? Prabhupāda: It is called śaṅkha . It is called śaṅkha . From conchshell. It is made from conchshell. Where you have purchased it? Woman: I'm afraid this is ivory. Prabhupāda: Ivory? Oh. There is similar made from conchshell. Woman: Yes, I had those in Allahabad. I was going there to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Allahabad? Conch, from conchshell? It is especially used in Bengal. Woman: Yes *Prabhupāda: A woman . . . that is an auspicious sign that she is with her husband, to have conchshell bangle. Śaṅkha*-sārī . A woman dressed śaṅkha and sārī , śaṅkha-sārī . They don't require any other ornament. One nice sārī and śaṅkha . That is Indian conception of woman having husband. *That is distinction between widow and a woman having husband. Widow will not accept sārī . All finished. Vedic culture, widow should finish her life after having the husband. Saha*-gamana. Satī . Yes. (break) . . . have got enough to preach. People will like it. Devotee: Yes, I think so. Yes. I think we have enough. *Prabhupāda: They'll like. Enough ingredients to preach. Simply one has to become intelligent how to express. The, what is called, outlines of thought are already there. You read one line, you can speak half an hour. They are so full of meaning—provided you can express the meanings. So we are not reading all the lines. We are going quickly from one śloka to another. Otherwise, if we explained each line of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Just like my Guru Mahārāja explained the first śloka for three months in Dhaka. *(break) . . . after this verse, he explained for three months. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained ātmārāma-śloka in sixty*-four ways. That is described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya . Sixty-four ways. *Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained in nine ways. He did not touch on those nine ways. Setting aside those nine ways, personally He explained in sixty*-four ways. Formerly such scholars were there, such religious persons were there. Therefore people were happy. What these rascals speak? Now there is Freud's philosophy and Darwin's theory. Revatīnandana: It's nice, because here people will listen. In India they won't listen, and in America they can't listen; they're so degraded. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 13, 1972, London Revatīnandana: So their residence place is not very far away, and she was curious. She came over a few days ago to find out more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sister Mary: I've seen a few about the street. Prabhupāda: Where? Sister Mary: We live down there, you see, and we've seen them several times in the street singing, and asked them what you're doing, really. Prabhupāda: (aside) You can keep it here. It may fall down. No. So do you know something about our movement? Sister Mary: I've been told something about it, the other day. Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We . . . we are preaching love of God. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following; we simply want to see that he has love for God. *Our bhāgavata*-dharma defines that that is first-class religion, following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ( SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion if, by following that, one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our . . . Sister Mary: So you don't try to convert people from other religions? Prabhupāda: No. Sister Mary: One can be Christian and . . . Prabhupāda: Any way. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. Sister Mary: Yes. So we're doing the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless. Sister Mary: How does he know? Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there. Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression, "Loving God or loving Mammon." Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression "Love God or love Mammon." Prabhupāda: That says, or . . . everyone says different way. "Mammon" or "dog" is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: Yugāyitaṁ , "Every moment is just like twelve years," cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam , "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam , śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ , "Oh, I find everything is vacant," govinda viraheṇa me , "without God, without . . ." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like Lord Jesus Christ: he never advised to . . . for economic development, for industrial development or this and that, so many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that, "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is the test. So we say that you follow any religious path—that doesn't matter—we want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one . . . a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another—because his aim is education. So if one is serious about loving God, then it doesn't matter in which way he learns that art. It doesn't matter. He won't discriminate, "Oh, I must learn this art from this university." No. Any university. It doesn't matter. So our principle is that we are teaching love of God. So actually, those who are after God, they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is in America, in Russia, in Africa or Canada. It doesn't matter. They are coming. And the method is simple: chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name, you chant. We preach this. We don't say that you chant "Kṛṣṇa." If you have got any name, God's name, then chant that. Sister Mary: We say Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said: "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that, "Chant the holy name of God." And if you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, "Kṛṣṇa." We don't say Kṛṣṇa. *Lord Caitanya says in each and every name of God . . . there are many names of God. But in each and every name of God, the full potency of God is there. So . . . and there is no hard*-and-fast rule for chanting the holy name of God. Anywhere, at anytime, anyone, in any circumstances, he can chant. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: "My Lord, You are so merciful that in this age . . ." Why . . .? Not in this age; every age. "You are always in full potency in Your name. And I can associate with You simply by chanting Your holy name. But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that." A simple thing, to chant the name. God has become so kind, "You simply chant My name." But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that. Now, these people are being taught . . . they have got this bead bag. I have also got. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Now where is the loss? If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the loss? And where is the want of time? They are walking on the street, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare." I am sitting here, and now I'm talking with you. As soon as I finish talking, I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? But ask people to chant the holy name of God, he won't accept. Unfortunate. And such simple thing. He hasn't got to go to church, to temple, or to go to hell or heaven. In whatever condition he is, he can chant holy name of God. But they're so unfortunate, they won't accept this theory. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā . "So God is so merciful, but I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant His holy name." There is no charges, there is no fee, there is no loss. If there is some gain, why not try for it? And the gain is there. That you practically see. Because these boys from Europe, America and other places, they were . . . I do not wish to discuss. (laughter) But just see the process now. Not the process one has . . . other has to calculate. Then calculate themself. Yes. There is so much profit. Sister Mary: We see that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is a sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is . . . they are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult that, "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that, "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement: "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done? Sister Mary: Not to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Hey? Sister Mary: Don't worry about that. Prabhupāda: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse: "No." Sister Mary: When you chant, Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: . . . do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things? Prabhupāda: Other things? Sister Mary: Well, many things require your concentration. Prabhupāda: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration. Sister Mary: You see, two . . . two things . . . you can't just . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately. Sister Mary: But you can't read or talk to someone. Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught . . . in our educational system they chant . . . what is that? That . . .? Pahara pahara. *Indian man: Pahara . Alphabet, a*-i-e. (indistinct commenting) Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing, they learn, "a, b, c," like that. "Two plus two equal to four." We did it in our childhood. One boy chants like that, "Two plus two equal to four." And we shall repeat, "Two plus two equal to four." So repeating three times, I understand two plus two equal to four. Sister Mary: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? Sister Mary: It goes deeper and deeper? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart? If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names goes to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart. Sister Mary: I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer . . . Prabhupāda: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. Sister Mary: In the heart. Prabhupāda: It will always remain in your heart. Sister Mary: Always going on. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. It remains in your heart. Not only my heart; others' heart. They also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not in my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me . . . we . . . last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka , they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain. Revatīnandana: In Manchester there's a big park . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously, it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all. Revatīnandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a . . . almost like japa beads. Show him. Sister Mary: You see, here. Revatīnandana: They're almost like japa mālā. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Sister Mary: We do it in some . . . together, even in the Orthodox Church. And we take turns doing two hundred. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sister Mary: And . . . these are for counting. Prabhupāda: That is nice. We also do the same thing. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sister Mary: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the wording? Sister Mary: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God . . ." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Sister Mary: It's a little prayer. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sister Mary: And they also pray to the mother of God. Prabhupāda: Sinful? "We are sinful"? Revatīnandana: Hm? Prabhupāda: You say "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like? Haṁsadūta: "Have mercy . . ." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Haṁsadūta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer. Prabhupāda: Oh! Sister Mary: And you say it in your own language. There are many people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the . . . by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God? Sister Mary: Well, mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it? *Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of . . . so . . . that is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa*-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped that, "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya : "You are the most munificent of all incarnation because You are distributing love of God," kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne : "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer. Sister Mary: Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent. Sister Mary: What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different. Sister Mary: Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed, doesn't it? Revatīnandana: What will the mind be doing? Haṁsadūta: While chanting. Revatīnandana: What should the mind be doing? Prabhupāda: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is . . . that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect. Sister Mary: It's very difficult to think of God. *Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible. Sister Mary: There's a lot more sins than just those four things. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities. Sister Mary: If you're irritated with somebody . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin. Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . Sister Mary: Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin. Prabhupāda: Irritated . . . if your mind is in peace . . . if you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter) Dog unnecessarily will talk: " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk—sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this? Sister Mary: Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian . . . Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh? Haṁsadūta: Animal. Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life? Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son? Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing. (guests enter) *Prabhupāda: Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come . . . you can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years, there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the . . . (indistinct) . . . stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Why? You can come here, this side. Haṁsadūta: You can sit here. *Prabhupāda: Yeṣāṁ anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. "Devil citing scripture." A devil cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ācārya , Sanātana Gosvāmī, he says that, "Don't hear scriptures from the devil." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa). "If a devil's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say: "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is devil or angel. It doesn't matter," No! The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue, of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. You cannot drink the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. *So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a devil. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle is, āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya . He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so*-called preaching? That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all condition, if we, with faith and love, we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified. *Revatīnandana: That line, jāya sakal'bipod bhaktivinod bolen jakhon o nām gāy (Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Bol 3). Prabhupāda: O nām gāy , yes. Revatīnandana: All obstacles will go away if you chant the holy name? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā , there are four classes of men who deride at God and four classes of men who approaches God. Atheist class of men, who are always engaged in sinful activities and therefore fools, they don't believe in the next life. Therefore they are fools. There is next life. They say: "Oh, we don't care for next life. Let us do whatever we like." That is a foolish proposition. Because there is next life. Just like a man, he becomes irresponsible. He says: "I don't care for government or law. I can do whatever I like." That means he's risking his life. As soon as he'll be arrested, he'll be punished. Therefore he's mūḍha , rascal. *Anyone who is defying the kingdom of God, he's a rascal. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Narādhamāḥ is lowest of the mankind. God consciousness is meant for human beings, and if a person defies God, then he's the lowest of the mankind. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : his knowledge has been plundered by the illusory energy. He may be academically a very big title holder, but if he's not God conscious, then his knowledge has been taken away. Real knowledge has been taken away. Asuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. These are the symptoms of the atheist class of men. So on the whole, at the present moment, God consciousness must be spread if actually they want peace and prosperity. And those who are in charge of religion . . . religion means God consciousness. Everyone should combine to spread God consciousness. That is the immediate necessity at the present moment. Sister Mary: People find it very difficult today . . . Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example: three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained. Sister Mary: For people outside. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sister Mary: For people outside. Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now. Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal, fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach. Sister Mary: Well, you can't have any . . . (indistinct) . . . until you are purified. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Purification will go on. Suppose you are . . . just like we are holding, what I . . . I began this propaganda in the Western countries, I was sitting in a park, Tompkinsons? What is that? Revatīnandana: Tompkins Square. Prabhupāda: Tompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare . . . for three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically he started my European movement. He started first. Guest: Have you been harassed in London at all? Prabhupāda: I don't think, but these are Londoners; they know better than me. Devotee: Yes, we have been harassed many times. We have been arrested and left from the prison about twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the night, and then we were far from that place to here. Guest: When was that? Revatīnandana: The last time was a week ago. (laughs) Guest: Would you say that the Americans are generally less tolerant than Londoners to you or more tolerant? Revatīnandana: America or here? Guest: Yes. Which is the worst and which is the better? Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think. Devotee: More tolerant. (laughs) America is more tolerant. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Guest: America is more tolerant? Devotee: But they're not arresting now, you see, and wherever they go, they chant freely. But here, almost every week we are arrested on the streets and harassed. Guest: Is it because . . . possibly because you are less well known over here than in America? Revatīnandana: No. Because a very conservative legal system and obsolete laws, like that. Sister Mary: What law can arrest you? Devotee: Well, we fought this out in the court here, and the magistrate allowed that we can chant. There is no law who can stop the chanting. But the police, authorities, they say: "Well, you are obstructing the traffic." And under that we are arrested. Prabhupāda: They can find out anything. Devotee: An excuse. It's an excuse . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: "Blocking the traffic," "Disturbing the peace . . ." Devotee: They simply come and arrest, and that is . . . Haṁsadūta: Anyway, the original purpose of America was to have religious freedom. Therefore they left England. Revatīnandana: There is constitutional guarantee . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . the point. Haṁsadūta: So they still have some respect for people who are trying to glorify God. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In America, in every court case we win. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Well, we lost here several times. Devotee: Last year, when we went to the police authorities for our procession here, and we wanted to make three rathas , and the police officer, he was so envious, he said: "No. There is no law we can put three rathas on the street." We said: "What is the harm? Won't you give us protection?" "So many people will be dying and killed under the ratha . If the ratha is so big and all that, people will be killed." I said: "They are big all over the world. This is for God consciousness." Prabhupāda: So many people are dying by motor accidents, but do they stop motorcar? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Guest: Do you think the situation will get better in London. Devotee: Yes. Guest: You do? Revatīnandana: Wherever there is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa going on, things will get better. Guest: Say, if the average London policeman, if he could be convinced to chant. *Revatīnandana: Convinced? No. Some of them are less hostile, some of them more hostile, naturally. We can chant on one side of Oxford Street, but we cannot chant on the other side of the street because there's two different police departments. It's like that. There is no hard*-and-fast way to figure it out. You just have to try it and see. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: One night at Piccadilly Circus we were eight, and four were arrested, and four other people, no, they let them go. So I said: "No, I was arrested." (laughter) When they went to the court, Prabhupāda, they got one pound fine each . . . they were altogether eight, and four were arrested. They also doing the same offense. It is same offense. So he said, "All right, let them go." *Guest: Can I ask about your . . . (indistinct) . . . about growth? . . . (indistinct) . . . recruiting, I suppose. How . . . can I ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy*-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week? Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand. (laughter) Guest: I'm talking about in Britain. Revatīnandana: Same thing. Yes, every few days somebody joins. Guest: Can you tell me how many of those actually stay? *Haṁsadūta: Oh, ninety*-nine percent stay. Guest: And what is the figure likely to be? Five a week? Ten a week? Prabhupāda: We don't keep any statistic, but actually, the fact is that I started alone; now we are eight thousand. Guest: I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that. Eight thousand who are . . . Haṁsadūta: Five years ago, Prabhupāda, he came to New York with some . . . these karatālas , and he began alone by sitting in a park underneath a tree chanting this very same Hare Kṛṣṇa, which you see the boys on Oxford Street chanting. And now there are eight thousand students all over the world, and approximately a hundred centers. At that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't even have a place for himself. But now he has a place in every major city. Guest: You used the word "student" here. You're referring to this as . . . yourself as student . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, because it's an education. This is a spiritual education. Guest: This doesn't tie up with the figure that I've been given, though, 150. There must be more than that. Haṁsadūta: No, we're talking about around the world. Guest: But you would accept there's 150? Haṁsadūta: Yes, in England. Guest: No, five years ago. Prabhupāda: In 1966. Haṁsadūta: In 1966. Sister Mary: Seventy centers on six continents. Prabhupāda: No, England we started in 1968. Devotee: That 150 is those who have fully dedicated their life, but there are thousands who are followers and admirers who have not joined here. Prabhupāda: They are admirers. Devotee: They are admirers, and they are . . . there are thousands of . . . but they all come . . . (indistinct) Sister Mary: But it's encouraging people to chant the name of God in their own religion. Revatīnandana: Yes. Sister Mary: You don't have to change your religion. Like we are Christians. In the Orthodox Church, they say that . . . (indistinct) Guest: To be a member you don't have to change your religion? Is this a fact? Sister Mary: To be a member here, a member here, you do, don't you? Or do you? Revatīnandana: To live in this temple you have to take up fully our principles and take up our activities of preaching work and like that. But to practice these things outside, even in one's own religion, without changing the basis of his belief, he can simply devote himself to God in these ways. And if one is young and not so attached, he can take it up fully. And if not, he can take it up in part, or he can take it up . . . in any religious system there are names of God. You simply chant it. Guest: (indistinct) . . . Sister Mary's an associate member, if you like. Sister Mary: Oh, I'm only just asking about it. Guest: I didn't mean you personally, I meant . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Everybody's a member . . . Guest: If you're a member, you have to practice the whole thing, or accept that, obviously. But what you're saying is if you're . . . Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member of this movement. But some people have forgotten. Our movement is to remind them. Every living being is by nature a servant of God. Now people are forgetting. We want them to remember. We don't care for some difference of technique in worship. We want people to take up the business of chanting the names of God. Prabhupāda: Just as in the same family some of the sons have forgotten God . . . huh . . . father and some of them remember, but both of them member of the same family. Because he has forgotten his father does not mean that he is not son. He still remains. So actually, everyone is a member of God's family. That is our vision. Not only human being, but animals also. We therefore consider animals also brothers. We don't support animal killing. Sister Mary: It shows in your four principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: We follow strictly these four principles. Just like this—no animal killing, no eating of animal foodstuffs, including meat, fish and eggs; don't take any kind of intoxicant, even tea, coffee. Guest: You're still on number one? Revatīnandana: No, that's number two. Guest: Let me get number one first. No animal killing, yes? Revatīnandana: No animal slaughter, no taking of animal foodstuffs, including meat, fish or eggs. Guest: No animal foodstuff. Sister Mary: Not milk. Revatīnandana: Milk we have, surely. We don't have to kill the animal to take the milk. Meat, fish and eggs we don't take. No intoxications of any kind. Guest: You're on number two now. Revatīnandana: Number two. No intoxication. That includes even tea, coffee, cigarettes, very strictly. No gambling. Guest: You're on three now. Revatīnandana: Number three, no gambling. And number four, no illicit sex life. That means no sex life whatsoever outside of marriage. And in marriage, sex life is to beget children and raise them to love God. So we follow these four principles very strictly. In this way we purify our lives, and then we can develop spiritual emotion of love of God. Guest: Uh, let's look at the . . . I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, etc., and no intoxicants. Revatīnandana: These are four "no's." Guest: Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat? Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts—all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs. Guest: Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth. Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasāda , or Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Guest: I'm sorry? Prabhupāda: Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it. Guest: Have you any view on food that's been . . . (indistinct) . . . preservatives, insecticide, sort of thing? Haṁsadūta: No, our point is to get the nicest foodstuff available and prepare it nicely for Kṛṣṇa, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute it. Guest: Ah ah ah. Haṁsadūta: That is the point. Guest: Right. Now . . . Sister Mary: We've received it from God, a part of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: I quite appreciate with respect the clause on alcohol. I'm puzzled, though, why anything on cigarettes. I'm puzzled about tea and coffee, frankly. Revatīnandana: Stimulants and depressants of all kinds—mild or strong—doesn't make any difference. You're taking a stimulant or a depressant, or a cigarette or a drink of coffee, it will agitate your mind with a chemical. Guest: So what can you drink? Revatīnandana: Milk, water, fruit juices, so many things. Haṁsadūta: If you don't get cigarettes, you won't die. If you don't get cigarettes . . . (indistinct) Guest: Oh, no, no. I wouldn't question that. Haṁsadūta: That's the point. They are unnecessary, artificial. Sister Mary: We're so used to tea and coffee. Guest: Yes. Sister Mary: We don't count them as . . . (indistinct) . . . any more, but they are. Guest: Huh huh huh. Gambling I understand. Broadly speaking, the attitude to sex and so on is really fundamentally the Catholic attitude, isn't it? Sister Mary: Except the Catholic church allows tea. Guest: I was talking about basic, those who are involved in . . . Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body, is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life—reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that . . . therefore we use our energy in that direction. Sister Mary: So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure. Guest: Can I ask . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure. Yes. Revatīnandana: She made this nice observation, that this is not to stop our enjoying, but this is higher enjoyment. Guest: Yeah. Revatīnandana: You see what I mean? Guest: May I ask how a lot of you . . . (indistinct) . . . when you come into this movement, you come in from on the outside, in the material world and so on, do you, as some monks do in monasteries, do you give all your wealth, all your possessions, everything, as it were, to the movement? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Why? Revatīnandana: Not necessarily. But generally yes. Because we're coming here to serve Kṛṣṇa, and we understand that everything is Kṛṣṇa's. So whatever we come with is automatically Kṛṣṇa's, so we use it in His service. *Prabhupāda: Actually, we don't possess anything. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. What we possess, so*-called possession, that is illegal. Because I cannot possess your property. I can possess your property by stealing, not by fair dealings. Guest: So it's a voluntary thing, really? Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: I can possess it if you give it to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. So that is our philosophy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). Whatever God has given you, you possess. Don't try to possess others' property. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam . Everything belongs to God, so whatever God gives me, "You enjoy it," I take it. I don't encroach upon others' property. Sister Mary: You use your own responsible. Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: You use your own, responsible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I should feel grateful: "Oh, God has given me this thing, so whatever utility is there, first of all I must offer to God." "God has given me this grain to eat, so I must cook and first of all offer to God, and then I shall eat." This is feeling gratitude, grateful. Sister Mary: Would you use, say, cars if you were given one? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: If someone gives us an automobile, would we use it? Revatīnandana: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Revatīnandana: Just like this tape recorder. Prabhupāda: Because originally, everything is possession of God. Sister Mary: If you had a big house, a rich house, you would use that? Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall turn into temple. Revatīnandana: Immediately. Prabhupāda: Immediately. (laughter) We are searching after. If you can give, it will be very much . . . Sister Mary: To put beautiful things in it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherever we shall go, we cannot go without God. So if we get a palatial house, immediately make a very gorgeous, nice temple, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. That's all. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . very beautiful . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We can utilize anything, because everything is belonging to God. So as soon as we get something, we utilize it for God. That is our philosophy. Sister Mary: Who controls . . . if one of the members becomes grasping, wants things for himself . . .? Prabhupāda: No, what . . . we are therefore teaching. We are therefore teaching. Members are gradually learning how to sacrifice for God. So when he is completely trained up, he knows that nothing belongs to him; everything belongs to God. Therefore whatever he possesses, it must be utilized for God's purposes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. We take it for granted, and that is a fact. Everything belongs to God. God, whatever God has given me for my use, so I must use it, first of all expressing my gratitude to God, "O God, You are so kind that You have given me this. So first of all You taste it. Then I'll eat." This is our philosophy. Sister Mary: What about pleasures like listening to music? Prabhupāda: Yes, we chant the glories of God. Sister Mary: Could you listen to other peoples' music? Prabhupāda: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu (SB 7.5.23). Chanting and hearing about God, that is music. Sister Mary: Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that? Prabhupāda: Which one? Revatīnandana: Beethoven's symphony. That means classical Western music. They make some music. Prabhupāda: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection. Revatīnandana: But there may be no reference to God in it. Prabhupāda: No, then we don't hear. We reject. Sister Mary: Inspired by God, given by God. Prabhupāda: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property, but do you like to go to the prison house? We say: "Oh, everything belongs to government." We are not so liberal that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prison house." Guest: I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Sister Mary: I said everything is good because it belongs to God, but you do choose, in fact, or you wouldn't choose to waste your time when you should be doing something else. Prabhupāda: But for God's cause we can go. Just like these boys are sometimes arrested and put into jail. That is God's cause. But they are not prepared to go to the jail by pickpocketing. That is not their mission. They are executing God's business, and if somebody puts him into jail, "All right. It is God's desire. That's all." Revatīnandana: The point is that there must be direct connection with God. If God's name is there, if God's service is there, if God's form is there, then we are interested. Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe (Brs 1.2.255). Everything must be related with God. Sister Mary: Well, if you're relaxing, if you need to relax, and you sit and listen to some music, it doesn't say "Praise God" all the time, but in fact is, because it's beautiful. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept anything beautiful without God. Without God, everything is ugly to us. Everything ugly. Sister Mary: So you have to bless it by offering it to God first. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Revatīnandana: Just like we have so many beautiful songs and melodies and everything. They're very nice. And we sing these songs. They are glorifying the Lord. And we enjoy like that. Music is there, everything is there, but because it is directly in the devotional service of God, therefore there is this bhakti , there is this devotion there, devotion to God. Without that, everything becomes void, tasteless. Guest: Can I get one point straight? . . . (indistinct) . . . is the Beethoven symphony all right provided it is blessed as an object and a work of art? Is it then all right? Or is it not all right because it doesn't use religious themes? Haṁsadūta: Originally, music and art were employed only to glorify the Lord in the scripture and . . . *Prabhupāda: In Sāma*-veda , Sāma-veda . Haṁsadūta: Gradually, if you study art history, music history, God was left out. Just like you will see landscapes, and there's nothing in there about God. It was left out. But originally the landscape, there was some depiction of the activities of God or His representative. Guest: So a Beethoven symphony is not all right. Haṁsadūta: It's not a matter of Beethoven symphony. Art means to glorify God. If God is in the . . . just like this picture. There is a mountain, there is sky, but what is the point there? The point is Kṛṣṇa. He has a point. There's a book, but the point is the spiritual master. Here's a landscape, but the point is Kṛṣṇa. Guest: The original point I'm trying to get at . . . Haṁsadūta: If there is some music, you must hear something about God's activity. Guest: But suppose that was a beautiful landscape on its own, just the landscape, then it's worthless? Revatīnandana: Limited and temporary enjoyment only. Limited and temporary enjoyment. Guest: But you accept that the temporary enjoyment is there, would you? *Revatīnandana: Yes. And limited and temporary. It's called capala*-sukha , flickering. Prabhupāda: Now, even there was no God's picture, one who is God conscious, he can see in the natural scenery presentation, he can see, "Oh, how God is artistic. How He has manufactured this flower, how He has painted, how He has made this tree." So that is higher intelligence. That is higher intelligence. Because without God, there can be nothing existing. So one has to learn how to see God in everything. That is another thing. That is higher status. Yes. But in the lower status of God consciousness one is advised that you should not see anything without God. But in the higher status, there is nothing in the world which is without God. *But we should not imitate the higher status of life in the lower status of our position. Otherwise, one who has learned about God, he can see God in this flower—actually how God's hand has worked out this nice flower. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā God says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). Just like I am drinking water. In the taste of the water I'll see God. God says, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste of the water." And actually, that taste cannot be created by man. The taste in the water, that is God's gift. So as soon as I taste the water, immediately I should remember, "Oh, here is God." Sister Mary: So we believe that the Holy Spirit empowers artists and composers. And therefore we would say that a symphony was a creation of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation . . . in everything there is hand of God. Therefore one who has learned to see everything in connection with God, he sees God everywhere, every moment. (knock) Yes? *Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana cchurita (Bs. 5.38). When one has developed love of God, he sees God everywhere, always. Because everything is creation of God, so he can find out, "Here is my Lord," "Here is my Lord," "Here is my Lord." That is the highest state of loving God. He cannot see anything without connection of God. Sister Mary: It's a matter of attitude who created these things. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Sister Mary: It's a matter of your attitude. Prabhupāda: Not attitude; development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial, but it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her . . . within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing; *it was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, unless Kṛṣṇa was there within? Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. Sister Mary: Do you believe you're drawing it out from people, if they hear it? If they hear this? Prabhupāda: Yes. As they hear, they became purified, and that dormant consciousness becomes awakened. Yes. Awakened. That chance we are giving. We are chanting, and others are hearing. By this process, chanting and hearing, both of us will be benefited, awakening our original God consciousness. Revatīnandana: At the stage of awakening, when you're waking up, when you're becoming cured of the diseased condition, you sometimes have to restrict your diet. Later on, when you are healthy, you can take all kinds of foodstuffs in the proper way. But while you're getting over a disease you have to restrict your diet. Therefore we hear things that are directly concerned with Kṛṣṇa's name, form, activities. Later on, then we'll be able to see God in a flower, God in everywhere. Otherwise we'll see the flower however we enjoy a flower, because we're not at that healthy stage. So therefore there are regulations that we follow for curing the disease. That means for a little while we restrict the diet. Then when we're healthy . . . Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God; they are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he puts it in the pocket. How . . . you see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but the use is different. Guest: What's your view, if I may ask, on . . . for emotion in . . . of an ideal, a Christian ideal and so on, through the media? Will you use television and radio to condemn things like racial intolerance and the Vietnam War? Do you believe that you should become involved in these things? Could you issue a statement and say that the movement condemns so and so? Do you believe getting into anything in the world spectrum to comment on things? Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Revatīnandana: His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world. There's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination . . . do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination? Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems; we take the . . . just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain. Sister Mary: You go down to the heart of the matter. Devotee: To the root cause. Sister Mary: They're only symptoms. Prabhupāda: These are all different symptoms of the society's being materially diseased. Sister Mary: Society isn't saved in a month by individuals . . . (indistinct) . . . the reality in each person. It's more than an example. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . pour the water to the root cause and in every leaf it goes. Guest: So the answer is you do not comment on it. Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā (SB 5.18.12). If one is godless, he cannot have any good qualities. Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. Right? So one doctor who's less intelligent says: "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. The sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says: "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all . . . there are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective, and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully, because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they . . . with one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail. Guest: But you will not comment on the details themselves. Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work. Sister Mary: Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment? To say that the whole of mankind is one, and we're treating the disease in the human heart, and this is . . . (indistinct) . . . man to man? You can't do it by an overall sitting on a post. Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. I just wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Sister Mary: We condemn wars, but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say: "God, stop this war." Revatīnandana: There's a saying: "Charity begins at home." (break) (end) Conversation -- August 13, 1972, London Revatīnandana: So their residence place is not very far away, and she was curious. She came over a few days ago to find out more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sister Mary: I've seen a few about the street. Prabhupāda: Where? Sister Mary: We live down there, you see, and we've seen them several times in the street singing, and asked them what you're doing, really. Prabhupāda: (aside) You can keep it here. It may fall down. No. So do you know something about our movement? Sister Mary: I've been told something about it, the other day. Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We . . . we are preaching love of God. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following; we simply want to see that he has love for God. *Our bhāgavata*-dharma defines that that is first-class religion, following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ( SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion if, by following that, one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our . . . Sister Mary: So you don't try to convert people from other religions? Prabhupāda: No. Sister Mary: One can be Christian and . . . Prabhupāda: Any way. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. Sister Mary: Yes. So we're doing the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless. Sister Mary: How does he know? Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there. Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression, "Loving God or loving Mammon." Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression "Love God or love Mammon." Prabhupāda: That says, or . . . everyone says different way. "Mammon" or "dog" is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: Yugāyitaṁ , "Every moment is just like twelve years," cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam , "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam , śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ , "Oh, I find everything is vacant," govinda viraheṇa me , "without God, without . . ." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like Lord Jesus Christ: he never advised to . . . for economic development, for industrial development or this and that, so many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that, "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is the test. So we say that you follow any religious path—that doesn't matter—we want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one . . . a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another—because his aim is education. So if one is serious about loving God, then it doesn't matter in which way he learns that art. It doesn't matter. He won't discriminate, "Oh, I must learn this art from this university." No. Any university. It doesn't matter. So our principle is that we are teaching love of God. So actually, those who are after God, they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is in America, in Russia, in Africa or Canada. It doesn't matter. They are coming. And the method is simple: chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name, you chant. We preach this. We don't say that you chant "Kṛṣṇa." If you have got any name, God's name, then chant that. Sister Mary: We say Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said: "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that, "Chant the holy name of God." And if you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, "Kṛṣṇa." We don't say Kṛṣṇa. *Lord Caitanya says in each and every name of God . . . there are many names of God. But in each and every name of God, the full potency of God is there. So . . . and there is no hard*-and-fast rule for chanting the holy name of God. Anywhere, at anytime, anyone, in any circumstances, he can chant. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: "My Lord, You are so merciful that in this age . . ." Why . . .? Not in this age; every age. "You are always in full potency in Your name. And I can associate with You simply by chanting Your holy name. But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that." A simple thing, to chant the name. God has become so kind, "You simply chant My name." But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that. Now, these people are being taught . . . they have got this bead bag. I have also got. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Now where is the loss? If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the loss? And where is the want of time? They are walking on the street, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare." I am sitting here, and now I'm talking with you. As soon as I finish talking, I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? But ask people to chant the holy name of God, he won't accept. Unfortunate. And such simple thing. He hasn't got to go to church, to temple, or to go to hell or heaven. In whatever condition he is, he can chant holy name of God. But they're so unfortunate, they won't accept this theory. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā . "So God is so merciful, but I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant His holy name." There is no charges, there is no fee, there is no loss. If there is some gain, why not try for it? And the gain is there. That you practically see. Because these boys from Europe, America and other places, they were . . . I do not wish to discuss. (laughter) But just see the process now. Not the process one has . . . other has to calculate. Then calculate themself. Yes. There is so much profit. Sister Mary: We see that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is a sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is . . . they are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult that, "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that, "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement: "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done? Sister Mary: Not to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Hey? Sister Mary: Don't worry about that. Prabhupāda: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse: "No." Sister Mary: When you chant, Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: . . . do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things? Prabhupāda: Other things? Sister Mary: Well, many things require your concentration. Prabhupāda: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration. Sister Mary: You see, two . . . two things . . . you can't just . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately. Sister Mary: But you can't read or talk to someone. Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught . . . in our educational system they chant . . . what is that? That . . .? Pahara pahara. *Indian man: Pahara . Alphabet, a*-i-e. (indistinct commenting) Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing, they learn, "a, b, c," like that. "Two plus two equal to four." We did it in our childhood. One boy chants like that, "Two plus two equal to four." And we shall repeat, "Two plus two equal to four." So repeating three times, I understand two plus two equal to four. Sister Mary: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? Sister Mary: It goes deeper and deeper? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart? If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names goes to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart. Sister Mary: I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer . . . Prabhupāda: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. Sister Mary: In the heart. Prabhupāda: It will always remain in your heart. Sister Mary: Always going on. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. It remains in your heart. Not only my heart; others' heart. They also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not in my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me . . . we . . . last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka , they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain. Revatīnandana: In Manchester there's a big park . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously, it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all. Revatīnandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a . . . almost like japa beads. Show him. Sister Mary: You see, here. Revatīnandana: They're almost like japa mālā. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Sister Mary: We do it in some . . . together, even in the Orthodox Church. And we take turns doing two hundred. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sister Mary: And . . . these are for counting. Prabhupāda: That is nice. We also do the same thing. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sister Mary: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the wording? Sister Mary: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God . . ." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Sister Mary: It's a little prayer. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sister Mary: And they also pray to the mother of God. Prabhupāda: Sinful? "We are sinful"? Revatīnandana: Hm? Prabhupāda: You say "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like? Haṁsadūta: "Have mercy . . ." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Haṁsadūta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer. Prabhupāda: Oh! Sister Mary: And you say it in your own language. There are many people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the . . . by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God? Sister Mary: Well, mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it? *Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of . . . so . . . that is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa*-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped that, "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya : "You are the most munificent of all incarnation because You are distributing love of God," kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne : "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer. Sister Mary: Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent. Sister Mary: What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different. Sister Mary: Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed, doesn't it? Revatīnandana: What will the mind be doing? Haṁsadūta: While chanting. Revatīnandana: What should the mind be doing? Prabhupāda: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is . . . that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect. Sister Mary: It's very difficult to think of God. *Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible. Sister Mary: There's a lot more sins than just those four things. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities. Sister Mary: If you're irritated with somebody . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin. Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . Sister Mary: Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin. Prabhupāda: Irritated . . . if your mind is in peace . . . if you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter) Dog unnecessarily will talk: " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk—sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this? Sister Mary: Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian . . . Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh? Haṁsadūta: Animal. Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life? Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son? Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing. (guests enter) *Prabhupāda: Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come . . . you can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years, there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the . . . (indistinct) . . . stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Why? You can come here, this side. Haṁsadūta: You can sit here. *Prabhupāda: Yeṣāṁ anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. "Devil citing scripture." A devil cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ācārya , Sanātana Gosvāmī, he says that, "Don't hear scriptures from the devil." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa). "If a devil's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say: "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is devil or angel. It doesn't matter," No! The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue, of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. You cannot drink the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. *So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a devil. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle is, āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya . He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so*-called preaching? That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all condition, if we, with faith and love, we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified. *Revatīnandana: That line, jāya sakal'bipod bhaktivinod bolen jakhon o nām gāy (Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Bol 3). Prabhupāda: O nām gāy , yes. Revatīnandana: All obstacles will go away if you chant the holy name? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā , there are four classes of men who deride at God and four classes of men who approaches God. Atheist class of men, who are always engaged in sinful activities and therefore fools, they don't believe in the next life. Therefore they are fools. There is next life. They say: "Oh, we don't care for next life. Let us do whatever we like." That is a foolish proposition. Because there is next life. Just like a man, he becomes irresponsible. He says: "I don't care for government or law. I can do whatever I like." That means he's risking his life. As soon as he'll be arrested, he'll be punished. Therefore he's mūḍha , rascal. *Anyone who is defying the kingdom of God, he's a rascal. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Narādhamāḥ is lowest of the mankind. God consciousness is meant for human beings, and if a person defies God, then he's the lowest of the mankind. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : his knowledge has been plundered by the illusory energy. He may be academically a very big title holder, but if he's not God conscious, then his knowledge has been taken away. Real knowledge has been taken away. Asuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. These are the symptoms of the atheist class of men. So on the whole, at the present moment, God consciousness must be spread if actually they want peace and prosperity. And those who are in charge of religion . . . religion means God consciousness. Everyone should combine to spread God consciousness. That is the immediate necessity at the present moment. Sister Mary: People find it very difficult today . . . Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example: three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained. Sister Mary: For people outside. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sister Mary: For people outside. Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now. Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal, fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach. Sister Mary: Well, you can't have any . . . (indistinct) . . . until you are purified. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Purification will go on. Suppose you are . . . just like we are holding, what I . . . I began this propaganda in the Western countries, I was sitting in a park, Tompkinsons? What is that? Revatīnandana: Tompkins Square. Prabhupāda: Tompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare . . . for three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically he started my European movement. He started first. Guest: Have you been harassed in London at all? Prabhupāda: I don't think, but these are Londoners; they know better than me. Devotee: Yes, we have been harassed many times. We have been arrested and left from the prison about twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the night, and then we were far from that place to here. Guest: When was that? Revatīnandana: The last time was a week ago. (laughs) Guest: Would you say that the Americans are generally less tolerant than Londoners to you or more tolerant? Revatīnandana: America or here? Guest: Yes. Which is the worst and which is the better? Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think. Devotee: More tolerant. (laughs) America is more tolerant. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Guest: America is more tolerant? Devotee: But they're not arresting now, you see, and wherever they go, they chant freely. But here, almost every week we are arrested on the streets and harassed. Guest: Is it because . . . possibly because you are less well known over here than in America? Revatīnandana: No. Because a very conservative legal system and obsolete laws, like that. Sister Mary: What law can arrest you? Devotee: Well, we fought this out in the court here, and the magistrate allowed that we can chant. There is no law who can stop the chanting. But the police, authorities, they say: "Well, you are obstructing the traffic." And under that we are arrested. Prabhupāda: They can find out anything. Devotee: An excuse. It's an excuse . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: "Blocking the traffic," "Disturbing the peace . . ." Devotee: They simply come and arrest, and that is . . . Haṁsadūta: Anyway, the original purpose of America was to have religious freedom. Therefore they left England. Revatīnandana: There is constitutional guarantee . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . the point. Haṁsadūta: So they still have some respect for people who are trying to glorify God. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In America, in every court case we win. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Well, we lost here several times. Devotee: Last year, when we went to the police authorities for our procession here, and we wanted to make three rathas , and the police officer, he was so envious, he said: "No. There is no law we can put three rathas on the street." We said: "What is the harm? Won't you give us protection?" "So many people will be dying and killed under the ratha . If the ratha is so big and all that, people will be killed." I said: "They are big all over the world. This is for God consciousness." Prabhupāda: So many people are dying by motor accidents, but do they stop motorcar? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Guest: Do you think the situation will get better in London. Devotee: Yes. Guest: You do? Revatīnandana: Wherever there is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa going on, things will get better. Guest: Say, if the average London policeman, if he could be convinced to chant. *Revatīnandana: Convinced? No. Some of them are less hostile, some of them more hostile, naturally. We can chant on one side of Oxford Street, but we cannot chant on the other side of the street because there's two different police departments. It's like that. There is no hard*-and-fast way to figure it out. You just have to try it and see. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: One night at Piccadilly Circus we were eight, and four were arrested, and four other people, no, they let them go. So I said: "No, I was arrested." (laughter) When they went to the court, Prabhupāda, they got one pound fine each . . . they were altogether eight, and four were arrested. They also doing the same offense. It is same offense. So he said, "All right, let them go." *Guest: Can I ask about your . . . (indistinct) . . . about growth? . . . (indistinct) . . . recruiting, I suppose. How . . . can I ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy*-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week? Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand. (laughter) Guest: I'm talking about in Britain. Revatīnandana: Same thing. Yes, every few days somebody joins. Guest: Can you tell me how many of those actually stay? *Haṁsadūta: Oh, ninety*-nine percent stay. Guest: And what is the figure likely to be? Five a week? Ten a week? Prabhupāda: We don't keep any statistic, but actually, the fact is that I started alone; now we are eight thousand. Guest: I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that. Eight thousand who are . . . Haṁsadūta: Five years ago, Prabhupāda, he came to New York with some . . . these karatālas , and he began alone by sitting in a park underneath a tree chanting this very same Hare Kṛṣṇa, which you see the boys on Oxford Street chanting. And now there are eight thousand students all over the world, and approximately a hundred centers. At that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't even have a place for himself. But now he has a place in every major city. Guest: You used the word "student" here. You're referring to this as . . . yourself as student . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, because it's an education. This is a spiritual education. Guest: This doesn't tie up with the figure that I've been given, though, 150. There must be more than that. Haṁsadūta: No, we're talking about around the world. Guest: But you would accept there's 150? Haṁsadūta: Yes, in England. Guest: No, five years ago. Prabhupāda: In 1966. Haṁsadūta: In 1966. Sister Mary: Seventy centers on six continents. Prabhupāda: No, England we started in 1968. Devotee: That 150 is those who have fully dedicated their life, but there are thousands who are followers and admirers who have not joined here. Prabhupāda: They are admirers. Devotee: They are admirers, and they are . . . there are thousands of . . . but they all come . . . (indistinct) Sister Mary: But it's encouraging people to chant the name of God in their own religion. Revatīnandana: Yes. Sister Mary: You don't have to change your religion. Like we are Christians. In the Orthodox Church, they say that . . . (indistinct) Guest: To be a member you don't have to change your religion? Is this a fact? Sister Mary: To be a member here, a member here, you do, don't you? Or do you? Revatīnandana: To live in this temple you have to take up fully our principles and take up our activities of preaching work and like that. But to practice these things outside, even in one's own religion, without changing the basis of his belief, he can simply devote himself to God in these ways. And if one is young and not so attached, he can take it up fully. And if not, he can take it up in part, or he can take it up . . . in any religious system there are names of God. You simply chant it. Guest: (indistinct) . . . Sister Mary's an associate member, if you like. Sister Mary: Oh, I'm only just asking about it. Guest: I didn't mean you personally, I meant . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Everybody's a member . . . Guest: If you're a member, you have to practice the whole thing, or accept that, obviously. But what you're saying is if you're . . . Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member of this movement. But some people have forgotten. Our movement is to remind them. Every living being is by nature a servant of God. Now people are forgetting. We want them to remember. We don't care for some difference of technique in worship. We want people to take up the business of chanting the names of God. Prabhupāda: Just as in the same family some of the sons have forgotten God . . . huh . . . father and some of them remember, but both of them member of the same family. Because he has forgotten his father does not mean that he is not son. He still remains. So actually, everyone is a member of God's family. That is our vision. Not only human being, but animals also. We therefore consider animals also brothers. We don't support animal killing. Sister Mary: It shows in your four principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: We follow strictly these four principles. Just like this—no animal killing, no eating of animal foodstuffs, including meat, fish and eggs; don't take any kind of intoxicant, even tea, coffee. Guest: You're still on number one? Revatīnandana: No, that's number two. Guest: Let me get number one first. No animal killing, yes? Revatīnandana: No animal slaughter, no taking of animal foodstuffs, including meat, fish or eggs. Guest: No animal foodstuff. Sister Mary: Not milk. Revatīnandana: Milk we have, surely. We don't have to kill the animal to take the milk. Meat, fish and eggs we don't take. No intoxications of any kind. Guest: You're on number two now. Revatīnandana: Number two. No intoxication. That includes even tea, coffee, cigarettes, very strictly. No gambling. Guest: You're on three now. Revatīnandana: Number three, no gambling. And number four, no illicit sex life. That means no sex life whatsoever outside of marriage. And in marriage, sex life is to beget children and raise them to love God. So we follow these four principles very strictly. In this way we purify our lives, and then we can develop spiritual emotion of love of God. Guest: Uh, let's look at the . . . I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, etc., and no intoxicants. Revatīnandana: These are four "no's." Guest: Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat? Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts—all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs. Guest: Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth. Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasāda , or Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Guest: I'm sorry? Prabhupāda: Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it. Guest: Have you any view on food that's been . . . (indistinct) . . . preservatives, insecticide, sort of thing? Haṁsadūta: No, our point is to get the nicest foodstuff available and prepare it nicely for Kṛṣṇa, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute it. Guest: Ah ah ah. Haṁsadūta: That is the point. Guest: Right. Now . . . Sister Mary: We've received it from God, a part of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: I quite appreciate with respect the clause on alcohol. I'm puzzled, though, why anything on cigarettes. I'm puzzled about tea and coffee, frankly. Revatīnandana: Stimulants and depressants of all kinds—mild or strong—doesn't make any difference. You're taking a stimulant or a depressant, or a cigarette or a drink of coffee, it will agitate your mind with a chemical. Guest: So what can you drink? Revatīnandana: Milk, water, fruit juices, so many things. Haṁsadūta: If you don't get cigarettes, you won't die. If you don't get cigarettes . . . (indistinct) Guest: Oh, no, no. I wouldn't question that. Haṁsadūta: That's the point. They are unnecessary, artificial. Sister Mary: We're so used to tea and coffee. Guest: Yes. Sister Mary: We don't count them as . . . (indistinct) . . . any more, but they are. Guest: Huh huh huh. Gambling I understand. Broadly speaking, the attitude to sex and so on is really fundamentally the Catholic attitude, isn't it? Sister Mary: Except the Catholic church allows tea. Guest: I was talking about basic, those who are involved in . . . Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body, is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life—reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that . . . therefore we use our energy in that direction. Sister Mary: So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure. Guest: Can I ask . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure. Yes. Revatīnandana: She made this nice observation, that this is not to stop our enjoying, but this is higher enjoyment. Guest: Yeah. Revatīnandana: You see what I mean? Guest: May I ask how a lot of you . . . (indistinct) . . . when you come into this movement, you come in from on the outside, in the material world and so on, do you, as some monks do in monasteries, do you give all your wealth, all your possessions, everything, as it were, to the movement? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Why? Revatīnandana: Not necessarily. But generally yes. Because we're coming here to serve Kṛṣṇa, and we understand that everything is Kṛṣṇa's. So whatever we come with is automatically Kṛṣṇa's, so we use it in His service. *Prabhupāda: Actually, we don't possess anything. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. What we possess, so*-called possession, that is illegal. Because I cannot possess your property. I can possess your property by stealing, not by fair dealings. Guest: So it's a voluntary thing, really? Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: I can possess it if you give it to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. So that is our philosophy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). Whatever God has given you, you possess. Don't try to possess others' property. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam . Everything belongs to God, so whatever God gives me, "You enjoy it," I take it. I don't encroach upon others' property. Sister Mary: You use your own responsible. Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: You use your own, responsible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I should feel grateful: "Oh, God has given me this thing, so whatever utility is there, first of all I must offer to God." "God has given me this grain to eat, so I must cook and first of all offer to God, and then I shall eat." This is feeling gratitude, grateful. Sister Mary: Would you use, say, cars if you were given one? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: If someone gives us an automobile, would we use it? Revatīnandana: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Revatīnandana: Just like this tape recorder. Prabhupāda: Because originally, everything is possession of God. Sister Mary: If you had a big house, a rich house, you would use that? Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall turn into temple. Revatīnandana: Immediately. Prabhupāda: Immediately. (laughter) We are searching after. If you can give, it will be very much . . . Sister Mary: To put beautiful things in it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherever we shall go, we cannot go without God. So if we get a palatial house, immediately make a very gorgeous, nice temple, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. That's all. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . very beautiful . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We can utilize anything, because everything is belonging to God. So as soon as we get something, we utilize it for God. That is our philosophy. Sister Mary: Who controls . . . if one of the members becomes grasping, wants things for himself . . .? Prabhupāda: No, what . . . we are therefore teaching. We are therefore teaching. Members are gradually learning how to sacrifice for God. So when he is completely trained up, he knows that nothing belongs to him; everything belongs to God. Therefore whatever he possesses, it must be utilized for God's purposes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. We take it for granted, and that is a fact. Everything belongs to God. God, whatever God has given me for my use, so I must use it, first of all expressing my gratitude to God, "O God, You are so kind that You have given me this. So first of all You taste it. Then I'll eat." This is our philosophy. Sister Mary: What about pleasures like listening to music? Prabhupāda: Yes, we chant the glories of God. Sister Mary: Could you listen to other peoples' music? Prabhupāda: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu (SB 7.5.23). Chanting and hearing about God, that is music. Sister Mary: Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that? Prabhupāda: Which one? Revatīnandana: Beethoven's symphony. That means classical Western music. They make some music. Prabhupāda: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection. Revatīnandana: But there may be no reference to God in it. Prabhupāda: No, then we don't hear. We reject. Sister Mary: Inspired by God, given by God. Prabhupāda: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property, but do you like to go to the prison house? We say: "Oh, everything belongs to government." We are not so liberal that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prison house." Guest: I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Sister Mary: I said everything is good because it belongs to God, but you do choose, in fact, or you wouldn't choose to waste your time when you should be doing something else. Prabhupāda: But for God's cause we can go. Just like these boys are sometimes arrested and put into jail. That is God's cause. But they are not prepared to go to the jail by pickpocketing. That is not their mission. They are executing God's business, and if somebody puts him into jail, "All right. It is God's desire. That's all." Revatīnandana: The point is that there must be direct connection with God. If God's name is there, if God's service is there, if God's form is there, then we are interested. Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe (Brs 1.2.255). Everything must be related with God. Sister Mary: Well, if you're relaxing, if you need to relax, and you sit and listen to some music, it doesn't say "Praise God" all the time, but in fact is, because it's beautiful. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept anything beautiful without God. Without God, everything is ugly to us. Everything ugly. Sister Mary: So you have to bless it by offering it to God first. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Revatīnandana: Just like we have so many beautiful songs and melodies and everything. They're very nice. And we sing these songs. They are glorifying the Lord. And we enjoy like that. Music is there, everything is there, but because it is directly in the devotional service of God, therefore there is this bhakti , there is this devotion there, devotion to God. Without that, everything becomes void, tasteless. Guest: Can I get one point straight? . . . (indistinct) . . . is the Beethoven symphony all right provided it is blessed as an object and a work of art? Is it then all right? Or is it not all right because it doesn't use religious themes? Haṁsadūta: Originally, music and art were employed only to glorify the Lord in the scripture and . . . *Prabhupāda: In Sāma*-veda , Sāma-veda . Haṁsadūta: Gradually, if you study art history, music history, God was left out. Just like you will see landscapes, and there's nothing in there about God. It was left out. But originally the landscape, there was some depiction of the activities of God or His representative. Guest: So a Beethoven symphony is not all right. Haṁsadūta: It's not a matter of Beethoven symphony. Art means to glorify God. If God is in the . . . just like this picture. There is a mountain, there is sky, but what is the point there? The point is Kṛṣṇa. He has a point. There's a book, but the point is the spiritual master. Here's a landscape, but the point is Kṛṣṇa. Guest: The original point I'm trying to get at . . . Haṁsadūta: If there is some music, you must hear something about God's activity. Guest: But suppose that was a beautiful landscape on its own, just the landscape, then it's worthless? Revatīnandana: Limited and temporary enjoyment only. Limited and temporary enjoyment. Guest: But you accept that the temporary enjoyment is there, would you? *Revatīnandana: Yes. And limited and temporary. It's called capala*-sukha , flickering. Prabhupāda: Now, even there was no God's picture, one who is God conscious, he can see in the natural scenery presentation, he can see, "Oh, how God is artistic. How He has manufactured this flower, how He has painted, how He has made this tree." So that is higher intelligence. That is higher intelligence. Because without God, there can be nothing existing. So one has to learn how to see God in everything. That is another thing. That is higher status. Yes. But in the lower status of God consciousness one is advised that you should not see anything without God. But in the higher status, there is nothing in the world which is without God. *But we should not imitate the higher status of life in the lower status of our position. Otherwise, one who has learned about God, he can see God in this flower—actually how God's hand has worked out this nice flower. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā God says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). Just like I am drinking water. In the taste of the water I'll see God. God says, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste of the water." And actually, that taste cannot be created by man. The taste in the water, that is God's gift. So as soon as I taste the water, immediately I should remember, "Oh, here is God." Sister Mary: So we believe that the Holy Spirit empowers artists and composers. And therefore we would say that a symphony was a creation of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation . . . in everything there is hand of God. Therefore one who has learned to see everything in connection with God, he sees God everywhere, every moment. (knock) Yes? *Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana cchurita (Bs. 5.38). When one has developed love of God, he sees God everywhere, always. Because everything is creation of God, so he can find out, "Here is my Lord," "Here is my Lord," "Here is my Lord." That is the highest state of loving God. He cannot see anything without connection of God. Sister Mary: It's a matter of attitude who created these things. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Sister Mary: It's a matter of your attitude. Prabhupāda: Not attitude; development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial, but it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her . . . within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing; *it was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, unless Kṛṣṇa was there within? Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. Sister Mary: Do you believe you're drawing it out from people, if they hear it? If they hear this? Prabhupāda: Yes. As they hear, they became purified, and that dormant consciousness becomes awakened. Yes. Awakened. That chance we are giving. We are chanting, and others are hearing. By this process, chanting and hearing, both of us will be benefited, awakening our original God consciousness. Revatīnandana: At the stage of awakening, when you're waking up, when you're becoming cured of the diseased condition, you sometimes have to restrict your diet. Later on, when you are healthy, you can take all kinds of foodstuffs in the proper way. But while you're getting over a disease you have to restrict your diet. Therefore we hear things that are directly concerned with Kṛṣṇa's name, form, activities. Later on, then we'll be able to see God in a flower, God in everywhere. Otherwise we'll see the flower however we enjoy a flower, because we're not at that healthy stage. So therefore there are regulations that we follow for curing the disease. That means for a little while we restrict the diet. Then when we're healthy . . . Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God; they are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he puts it in the pocket. How . . . you see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but the use is different. Guest: What's your view, if I may ask, on . . . for emotion in . . . of an ideal, a Christian ideal and so on, through the media? Will you use television and radio to condemn things like racial intolerance and the Vietnam War? Do you believe that you should become involved in these things? Could you issue a statement and say that the movement condemns so and so? Do you believe getting into anything in the world spectrum to comment on things? Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Revatīnandana: His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world. There's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination . . . do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination? Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems; we take the . . . just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain. Sister Mary: You go down to the heart of the matter. Devotee: To the root cause. Sister Mary: They're only symptoms. Prabhupāda: These are all different symptoms of the society's being materially diseased. Sister Mary: Society isn't saved in a month by individuals . . . (indistinct) . . . the reality in each person. It's more than an example. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . pour the water to the root cause and in every leaf it goes. Guest: So the answer is you do not comment on it. Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā (SB 5.18.12). If one is godless, he cannot have any good qualities. Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. Right? So one doctor who's less intelligent says: "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. The sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says: "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all . . . there are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective, and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully, because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they . . . with one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail. Guest: But you will not comment on the details themselves. Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work. Sister Mary: Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment? To say that the whole of mankind is one, and we're treating the disease in the human heart, and this is . . . (indistinct) . . . man to man? You can't do it by an overall sitting on a post. Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. I just wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Sister Mary: We condemn wars, but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say: "God, stop this war." Revatīnandana: There's a saying: "Charity begins at home." (break) (end) Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban Prabhupāda: When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. Everyone has some vague idea of God, but no clear idea. Therefore God descends to show what He is. If we speculate on God, someone will think one thing and another person will think another. This is the result of speculation. But if God Himself comes and shows Himself as He is and speaks about Himself, that is perfect knowledge. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading that message. God Himself is speaking about Himself: "I am like this; I am like this; My form is like this; My activities are like this; *My address is this and that*-if you like you can come back to Me. This is the situation. Everyone can come to Me." All this information is there in Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. In Bhagavad-gītā God speaks about Himself and presents Himself as He is. We have simply to take that information; then we can understand God. As soon as we understand God, we can go home immediately. It is a very simple thing. God says: *John Nordheimer: Prabhupāda, it's been thirty*-five years since you were given this mission by your spiritual master to bring the word of Kṛṣṇa to the West. A lot has happened in the world over that period of time. The world has... *Prabhupāda: That is nothing. That period of time is relative. As human beings, we live for some time*-say for a hundred years-but there are demigods who can live for millions of years. And an ant will live for only a few hours. So this is relative. But time is eternal, and what is happening in so-called human history has no consideration from the viewpoint of eternal time. That is all relative. If there is some catastrophe in ant society, the ants may be very much concerned, but human society does not take any notice of it. Similarly, if a catastrophe occurs in human society, the demigods, who are higher than us, do not consider it. Some birds or cats or dogs may be fighting, and for them it may be a catastrophe, but for us it is nothing. This is the relative world, and we should know that what has happened in this world is not worthy of consideration in terms of universal affairs. Things are coming and going like seasonal changes. Arjuna put this question to Kṛṣṇa: "This is a catastrophe! I have to kill my own men." Although Arjuna believed this to be a catastrophe, Kṛṣṇa likened it to seasonal changes. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. "O son of Kuntī, the non-permanent appearance of happiness and distress and their disappearance in due course are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons." In the winter season water is not very pleasant, but in the summer it is very pleasing. What then, is the condition of water? Is it pleasing or not? The water is the same, but in touch with our skin it becomes pleasing or not according to the climatic circumstances. Just because the summer is hot, should I give up cooking? Work must be done. Similarly, just because water is cold in the winter, should I give up my bath? No. These things may come and go, but we have to do our duty. Our duty is Kṛṣṇa consciousness; that is our philosophy, and that is an actual fact. These seasonal changes may come and go in life; *sometimes they may please us, and sometimes they may pinch us, but our duty in human life is to understand God. We shouldn't care for all these catastrophes that come and go. We should have no concern, for their nature is like that*-sometimes pleasing and sometimes not pleasing. Despite all this, we have to do our duty, understand God. John Nordheimer: What about the future? Is it possible to bring more people into Kṛṣṇa consciousness? To expand? Prabhupāda: Of course there are good men and bad men, and good men are taking to this movement because it is a good movement. "Good" means not having illicit sex, not eating meat, not indulging in intoxication, and not indulging in gambling. If anyone observes these four principles, he is considered a good man, and if he does not observe them, he is a bad man. So good men will take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and bad men will not. We give distinct rules on how to become good, for if one does not become good, how can he understand God, who is all good? First we must become good men; then we can understand God. God is all good, and if we don't become good we cannot understand Him. That's all. It's up to us to make the choice. The past, present and future are open for everyone. There is no restriction; *no one says, "This class of men shall be good, and this class of men shall be bad." Anyone can become good. If we educate a child nicely, he becomes good, but if we train him foolishly, he becomes a rascal. It is the duty of the government, of the father and of the teachers to make everyone good. If the government is bad, if the father is bad, and the society is bad*-how can the child be good? Everywhere the government, father and society are bad; and therefore we are producing bad men, and therefore there is no peace and prosperity. John Nordheimer: What about the men who surround you? Prabhupāda: They're all good men. John Nordheimer: They are good men who were raised in a bad society. Prabhupāda: No, they were raised in a bad society, but they have chosen to become good. John Nordheimer: Is that preordained, or is it by free choice? Prabhupāda: Free choice. What is preordained? You are here of your free choice. If you like, you can sit down and talk with me, and if you don't like, then you can go. That is your free choice. Free choice makes destiny; *if I act in goodness, then my future is good. And if I act badly, my future is bad. That is destiny. Man is the architect of his own destiny. If you are educated, your future is nice, and if you remain foolish, then your future is bad. Future destiny depends on present action. This life is an opportunity to make the next life, and if we behave like human beings, then in our next life we will go back home, back to Godhead. But if we behave like animals, then in the next life we will take animal bodies. That's all. All this is very nicely described in Bhagavad*-gītā. The conclusion is that human beings are meant for understanding God, but if we waste our time understanding dog, and if we become attached to dog, then we will become dogs in our next life. And if we are attached to God, we become like God, in our next life. The choice is ours. John Nordheimer: Why does all this exist? Why the challenge in the first place? Why māyā? Prabhupāda: Māyā means that you are unfortunate. Here it is light, and there it is darkness. If I tell you to come from the darkness into the light and if you don't come, that is your misfortune. māyā is there, and God is there. If you want to remain in māyā, then how can you be saved? I can help you by saying, "Don't remain in darkness. Please come out into the light." But if you say, "No, I shall remain here," then how can I save you? You have your choice. God is there, and māyā is there. If you take to māyā you remain in māyā. What can I do, and what can God do? That is your choice. John Nordheimer: Who created māyā, man or God? Prabhupāda: The government may create a prisonhouse, but why do you go there? Does the government invite you there? No, you become a criminal and go there. The prisonhouse is there and the university is there. Why do some people go to prison rather than the university? The government is not partial to people; *it does not say, "You live in this university and be educated, and you go to the prison and live there." It is in the individual's choice. Similarly, God has created so many things, but it is our duty to follow God's instructions. God says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Just give up all nonsense and surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection." That is God's declaration. Why don't you take to that? God is all powerful, and He may create so many things for some purpose, but why don't you follow God's instructions? God says, "Surrender unto Me," so why not surrender? Why surrender to māyā? That is the individual's choice. Another example: the government does not want the youth to become hippies, but they are abandoning a wealthy life just to lie down in the street. In London I've seen many boys lying on the street. Why? We Indians may lie on the street because we are poor, but they are not poor, nor the Americans. Why has some of the younger generation accepted this way of life? You have enough food, enough house, enough money, facilities, machines-everything. Why are they accepting this kind of life? John Nordheimer: They reject what they see. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they are coming from respectable fathers, from a respectable nation. Why are they rejecting this mode of civilization? John Nordheimer: They don't really find it respectable. Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone has his choice. That you have to accept. Why do you forget it? God has given us everything, and now it is up to us to make our choice. So God is good, and if we follow His instructions, we become good. John Nordheimer: What problems do you have in making His word, His instructions reach the ears of everyone in the world? Prabhupāda: We are not preaching our own words; we are preaching God's words. Now it is up to you to make your choice. God says to give up all engagements and just surrender unto Him. God says: John Nordheimer: What is the role of women in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: There is no distinction between men and women. John Nordheimer: I keep hearing about certain propensities women have that would separate them from propensities men have. Prabhupāda: Well, it is still man's duty to become the husband and woman's duty to become the wife; so these propensities are there. But all this can be adjusted. I have many students and am getting them married, and they are living peacefully and advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that everyone is brahmacārī. We have many gṛhasthas and children. In this way the propensities of the women and those of the man are adjusted. A man wants a woman, and a woman wants a man, so we say, "All right, take it. Live peacefully, but don't change partners." We don't allow divorce; once they're married there is no separation. Nor do we allow boys and girls to live together as friends. If a man wants a woman and a woman wants a man, they should become united by marriage, live peacefully and advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our proposal. In this way all facilities are there in this movement. Our program is to make people become godly, and everyone should help us. Every sane man should help this movement for the good of society. John Nordheimer: What about the United States government? Prabhupāda: Yes, it should come forward. My students here are all United States citizens. I have not imported them from India. They are Americans, and they are in difficulty. So why shouldn't the government come forward? Their character is being formed, and they are becoming God conscious by participating in this movement. The government is spending millions of dollars to stop LSD and other drug intoxication, but my students are giving up everything simply by following my word. So why isn't the government coming forward to help me? John Nordheimer: They don't care about the people, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But don't they want good for their own men? I am stopping American boys and girls from taking LSD and other drugs, and the government is spending millions of dollars to do this. It is only practical that they come forward to support this movement. John Nordheimer: Understanding is needed, for I know some of the misconceptions that exist about your movement. Prabhupāda: Are the misconceptions cleared? John Nordheimer: I hope so. *Prabhupāda: Yes, we invite everyone to come here to listen to our philosophy, take prasādam and sing and dance with us. This program is very nice. We do not make distinctions in human society. We do not say that we shall serve the Indians and not the Americans or the Americans and not the Africans. We are going everywhere with this movement. We take all human beings to be part and parcel of God. Not only human beings, but every living entity*-animals also. John Nordheimer: How many followers do you have? John Nordheimer: (laughing) It's already been suggested that we (the New York Times) are not divinely inspired. At any rate, this book- Prabhupāda: If one gets a diamond, he possesses something valuable. But in this civilization you are simply making plastic plates and plastic cups. Indeed, in Japan I have seen pasteboard homes. And everyone is thinking that he is advanced. Formerly people used to have golden and silver utensils, but now they have plastic ones, and still they are very proud to be so materially advanced. What is your position? You have a bunch of paper and think, "I am a millionaire." What is the value of that paper? Is that not cheating? However, if we possess gold or diamonds worth a million dollars, that is actual wealth. But we are educated in such a way that we think we are millionaires by paper only. As soon as there is some catastrophe, millions of such dollars could not buy bread. This actually happened in Germany; millions of marks could not purchase one piece of bread. All this is going on in the name of advancement of civilization, and the real purpose of life, God consciousness, is missing. So every thoughtful man should come forward to understand this movement and take it seriously. Why are the people being misled? We just have to try to understand this philosophy, the basic principles of God consciousness. John Nordheimer: Can you really expect to change the whole society? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. The change is up to you; it is your choice. If everyone becomes God conscious, the world becomes the kingdom of God. John Nordheimer: Many people have tried to change the world, but we see that they have failed. Many people have tried to see God, but they do not succeed. Prabhupāda: That is because their purpose is not strong. That is due to māyā, forgetfulness. Just like darkness and light; if your light is strong, there is no darkness. But if you have no light, or if your light is not very strong, there is darkness. This is the principle: If you want to drive away darkness, you must bring light. That is the only medicine. You don't have to make a separate endeavor to drive away darkness. As soon as you bring light, darkness will go. The motto of our magazine Back To Godhead is: "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." This is also the Vedic Disciple: Prabhupāda, its time for Bhāgavata Dharma. Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata Dharma is already finished here. (laughter) You go and speak. (turning to interviewer) At least write in your paper that we are not sentimentalists. We have a large philosophic background. Thank you. John Nordheimer: Thank you. (leaves) (end) Conversation -- September 9, 1972, Pittsburgh Yaśomatīnandana: We got garlanded every block, so many garlands were there it was hard to redistribute again. Devotee: If you need help. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many people live in Surat, approximately? Yaśomatīnandana: Seven, seven I mean (break) . . . five . . . but it is getting bigger and its bigger than Baroda. It's larger than Baroda in population. Prabhupāda: . . . so it is bigger than in population? Than Baroda. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And I like that river. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that river? Yaśomatīnandana: Tāpi. Prabhupāda: Tāpi Yaśomatīnandana: Tāpi. Tāpi. Prabhupāda: Very nice river. Yaśomatīnandana: It's very nice river. Prabhupāda: By the riverside there are so many lands. Yaśomatīnandana: Uhu, yea, but the thing is that Prabhupāda that this river is sometimes very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Ah, over flooding? *Yaśomatīnandana: Now I think, I don’t think it will over flood because they have got so many projects, dams and things like that but it used to over*-flood very often. Every five or six years . . . (indistinct) . . . but that over flooding would affect the whole city, so it doesn’t matt . . . head out the other bank of the city . . . that the waters would rush into the whole city and. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many miles away from Bombay? Yaśomatīnandana: 150. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: 150 miles? Yaśomatīnandana: 150 miles. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's far. Yaśomatīnandana: Surat is developing also, in other ways also like aerodromic industries. Prabhupāda: It is a rich city. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes . . . actually. Prabhupāda: We went to Bardoli. Yaśomatīnandana: Bardoli? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, my, actually my native place belongs to Chaltan. It is only 5 miles from Bardoli. Prabhupāda: Bardoli is also very nice place. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes . . . I have always felt that the people of Surat district have . . . (indistinct) . . . than most of the people, you know I have seen . . . they have been very friendly and simple mostly. Prabhupāda: I think that in Gujarat there are two or three cities, Baroda, Surat, Ahmadābād. Is that? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes these are the three major cities . . . Rājkot, Dvārakā, Porbandar, Jāmnagar . . . but they are not very big cities . . . in Śaurāṣṭra. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are a lot of Gujarati's here in this country. Prabhupāda: Oh yea, all over over. Yaśomatīnandana: Now all over . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Gujaratis and Sindhis first, first Sindhis. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then Gujaratis, then Punjabis and then all others. Bengalis . . . (indistinct) . . . Sindhis they can go any part of the world. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, they have become more adventurous now. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not all . . . but all are allowed. There are. Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Therefore they are very rich communities. Yaśomatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Next to Sindhi, I think Gujarati. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next Punjabi. Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sindhi's and Gujarati's they go mostly for business. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Punjabis they go. Part, part . . . partly for business partly for working. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Have you ever been to London ghettos? London Indian ghettos? Near London. They say they are living very bad, in London, near London. Prabhupāda: Yes, London there are many Indians, although they are in London they live like Indians. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, very similar. In Russell Square there is one hostel called, " Indian Students Hostel ". Prabhupāda: You have been in London? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And there, (laughter) Oh, we stayed about, about a couple of nights called, " Indian Students Hostel ". That is for transit passengers who just stopped by in London for a couple of days, and then. So we stayed there for. And we were served the . . . all the our Indian reception. Prabhupāda: Oh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was very nice. Yaśomatīnandana: But. Prabhupāda: There are many Indian hostels, many. Yaśomatīnandana: It is so surprising, that I met a girl in . . . who was married to an Indian boy. She stayed there for 17 years, and she did not know a word of English. She was. Prabhupāda: Yes there are many. Yaśomatīnandana: So. Prabhupāda: I know one Maharashtrian lady she is running one hotel for the last 22 years, no 22 years was in 1968, must be 25 years. She invited me I went to her house, she is running one Maharashtrian hotel. She does not know English, she does not know. A little, little." . . . "Yes . . . yes no, very good." That's all. (laughter). Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, excuse me what would you like for lunch? Prabhupāda: Dal and capātīs , would be nice. Devotee: You will be going back to India soon? Yaśomatīnandana: Uh? (laughter) if Prabhupāda wants me to go . . . I want to work for a while so that I can have enough money, to start. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes get some money. Devotee: If he needs a sannyāsī , I will go. Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: To Surat? Prabhupāda: We require many men. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands to make this propaganda all over the world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Unlimited number we want. It is so important moment. Any number of men we cannot imagine. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should take over the world . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amader desher brahmana gulo shobai bole Sharma ar baki gulo shob Singh. Ek jon ache Nagalok. Oi pahade. Ota mane shob Christian hoye geche karon oi missionary onek gulo ashe. Assam e ar amader oi . . . (indistinct) . . . districte. (The brāhmaṇas in our land have the title, Sharma and others have the title Singh. There is also one Nagalok, in the hills. They have all become Christians because many missionaries used to visit there. In Assam, in our . . . (indistinct) . . . district.) Prabhupāda: Tar mane . . . taderke ghenna koreche. Tomader jat. (That means . . . they had been treated with disgust. By your people.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amader mane Swami khub bodo mistake hoye geche. Bodo mane . . . ( Swāmī , we have made a big mistake actually. By big I mean . . .) Prabhupāda: Tader ghenna koreche . . . (indistinct) . . . Vaishnava der kriparthe (They had been treated with disgust . . . (indistinct) . . . Vaiśnava's mercy) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: There was a mistake in our dealing with the our leaders. They did not even allowed to come to the house, such a mistake. So they became all Christians. Prabhupāda: No, they may not be allowed to enter the house but why they should not be elevated? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. This was a mistake done by the . . . our leaders. Yaśomatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard that in south India the Christian missionaries, even the brāhmins are converted into Christians and how, you know, that the Christian priest would go into the house of a brāhmin and put a block of bread into his well and then the brāhmin would be debarred from his caste because the brāhmins were, you know. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . also. Yaśomatīnandana: So that is why he was forced to accept Christianity because he would not have any position in his camp. (cut) (end) Conversation -- September 9, 1972, Pittsburgh Yaśomatīnandana: We got garlanded every block, so many garlands were there it was hard to redistribute again. Devotee: If you need help. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many people live in Surat, approximately? Yaśomatīnandana: Seven, seven I mean (break) . . . five . . . but it is getting bigger and its bigger than Baroda. It's larger than Baroda in population. Prabhupāda: . . . so it is bigger than in population? Than Baroda. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And I like that river. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that river? Yaśomatīnandana: Tāpi. Prabhupāda: Tāpi Yaśomatīnandana: Tāpi. Tāpi. Prabhupāda: Very nice river. Yaśomatīnandana: It's very nice river. Prabhupāda: By the riverside there are so many lands. Yaśomatīnandana: Uhu, yea, but the thing is that Prabhupāda that this river is sometimes very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Ah, over flooding? *Yaśomatīnandana: Now I think, I don’t think it will over flood because they have got so many projects, dams and things like that but it used to over*-flood very often. Every five or six years . . . (indistinct) . . . but that over flooding would affect the whole city, so it doesn’t matt . . . head out the other bank of the city . . . that the waters would rush into the whole city and. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many miles away from Bombay? Yaśomatīnandana: 150. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: 150 miles? Yaśomatīnandana: 150 miles. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's far. Yaśomatīnandana: Surat is developing also, in other ways also like aerodromic industries. Prabhupāda: It is a rich city. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes . . . actually. Prabhupāda: We went to Bardoli. Yaśomatīnandana: Bardoli? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, my, actually my native place belongs to Chaltan. It is only 5 miles from Bardoli. Prabhupāda: Bardoli is also very nice place. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes . . . I have always felt that the people of Surat district have . . . (indistinct) . . . than most of the people, you know I have seen . . . they have been very friendly and simple mostly. Prabhupāda: I think that in Gujarat there are two or three cities, Baroda, Surat, Ahmadābād. Is that? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes these are the three major cities . . . Rājkot, Dvārakā, Porbandar, Jāmnagar . . . but they are not very big cities . . . in Śaurāṣṭra. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are a lot of Gujarati's here in this country. Prabhupāda: Oh yea, all over over. Yaśomatīnandana: Now all over . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Gujaratis and Sindhis first, first Sindhis. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then Gujaratis, then Punjabis and then all others. Bengalis . . . (indistinct) . . . Sindhis they can go any part of the world. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, they have become more adventurous now. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not all . . . but all are allowed. There are. Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Therefore they are very rich communities. Yaśomatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Next to Sindhi, I think Gujarati. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next Punjabi. Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sindhi's and Gujarati's they go mostly for business. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Punjabis they go. Part, part . . . partly for business partly for working. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Have you ever been to London ghettos? London Indian ghettos? Near London. They say they are living very bad, in London, near London. Prabhupāda: Yes, London there are many Indians, although they are in London they live like Indians. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, very similar. In Russell Square there is one hostel called, " Indian Students Hostel ". Prabhupāda: You have been in London? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And there, (laughter) Oh, we stayed about, about a couple of nights called, " Indian Students Hostel ". That is for transit passengers who just stopped by in London for a couple of days, and then. So we stayed there for. And we were served the . . . all the our Indian reception. Prabhupāda: Oh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was very nice. Yaśomatīnandana: But. Prabhupāda: There are many Indian hostels, many. Yaśomatīnandana: It is so surprising, that I met a girl in . . . who was married to an Indian boy. She stayed there for 17 years, and she did not know a word of English. She was. Prabhupāda: Yes there are many. Yaśomatīnandana: So. Prabhupāda: I know one Maharashtrian lady she is running one hotel for the last 22 years, no 22 years was in 1968, must be 25 years. She invited me I went to her house, she is running one Maharashtrian hotel. She does not know English, she does not know. A little, little." . . . "Yes . . . yes no, very good." That's all. (laughter). Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, excuse me what would you like for lunch? Prabhupāda: Dal and capātīs , would be nice. Devotee: You will be going back to India soon? Yaśomatīnandana: Uh? (laughter) if Prabhupāda wants me to go . . . I want to work for a while so that I can have enough money, to start. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes get some money. Devotee: If he needs a sannyāsī , I will go. Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: To Surat? Prabhupāda: We require many men. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands to make this propaganda all over the world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Unlimited number we want. It is so important moment. Any number of men we cannot imagine. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should take over the world . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amader desher brahmana gulo shobai bole Sharma ar baki gulo shob Singh. Ek jon ache Nagalok. Oi pahade. Ota mane shob Christian hoye geche karon oi missionary onek gulo ashe. Assam e ar amader oi . . . (indistinct) . . . districte. (The brāhmaṇas in our land have the title, Sharma and others have the title Singh. There is also one Nagalok, in the hills. They have all become Christians because many missionaries used to visit there. In Assam, in our . . . (indistinct) . . . district.) Prabhupāda: Tar mane . . . taderke ghenna koreche. Tomader jat. (That means . . . they had been treated with disgust. By your people.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amader mane Swami khub bodo mistake hoye geche. Bodo mane . . . ( Swāmī , we have made a big mistake actually. By big I mean . . .) Prabhupāda: Tader ghenna koreche . . . (indistinct) . . . Vaishnava der kriparthe (They had been treated with disgust . . . (indistinct) . . . Vaiśnava's mercy) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: There was a mistake in our dealing with the our leaders. They did not even allowed to come to the house, such a mistake. So they became all Christians. Prabhupāda: No, they may not be allowed to enter the house but why they should not be elevated? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. This was a mistake done by the . . . our leaders. Yaśomatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard that in south India the Christian missionaries, even the brāhmins are converted into Christians and how, you know, that the Christian priest would go into the house of a brāhmin and put a block of bread into his well and then the brāhmin would be debarred from his caste because the brāhmins were, you know. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . also. Yaśomatīnandana: So that is why he was forced to accept Christianity because he would not have any position in his camp. (cut) (end) Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is Guest (1): Jodhpur, Rajasthan. Prabhupāda: Jodhpur, Rajasthan. She is your wife? You are from also Rajasthan? Woman: Jodhpur. Prabhupāda: Jodhpur? Same place. We had been in Jaipur. Great function we had. (Hindi) In whatever profession you are, you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your professional talent. Then your... Bhagavān is not stereotyped, that Bhagavān becomes... Just like Bhīṣma. He was great devotee, and in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra Bhīṣma was piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa by arrows and Kṛṣṇa was feeling very nice. So it is not that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied simply by throwing rose flower. Sometimes a devotee throws arrow and Kṛṣṇa becomes satisfied. So we can satisfy Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. Kṛṣṇa is varied. He is not stereotyped. But we must know the art how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then our life is successful. Guest (1): How can we realize Kṛṣṇa is satisfied? Prabhupāda: Yes, you'll realize when you satisfy actually. You have to take direction. Just like you are engineer or business administrator. You learn the art from a teacher, and then you can know how you are satisfying your master. Just like if you eat, then you can understand that "how we are being satisfied." You haven't got to ask anybody, "Am I satisfied?" If you are eating, then you'll be satisfied. Similarly, if you serve Kṛṣṇa according to the superior direction, then you'll understand that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. First of all you have to learn how to satisfy, and then, reciprocally, you'll be aware that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied with you by the result. *Guest (2): Swamiji, Kṛṣṇa says in Gītā that "Do your duty without, unmindful of result." But when we do our duties, or so*-called normal karmas, we are always aware of the result. Like when you do a job you're aware that you're getting a check every two weeks and so on. Similarly, even the small things in our life, we are always first looking for the result as a matter of, I mean, these worldly people we are. Prabhupāda: The result is... Here there is no check. Just like these boys, these American boys, European boys. They have seen enough checks and they can pay enough checks. But they are not after checks. They are after Kṛṣṇa's service. Guest (2): Does it mean that we should leave the work and we should not work and... *Prabhupāda: No. That I have explained. You work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is called "Don't see to the result." Kṛpaṇa, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. Kṛpaṇa. There are two classes of men. One is kṛpaṇa, and one is brāhmaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, they want his sense satisfaction, and brāhmaṇa, they want Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. Satisfaction must be there but when you want your satisfaction, that is kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. He wants to enjoy the result. That is the whole world. Material world means everyone wants his sense satisfaction, but the same way, when you'll satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, then you become brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava. The result must be there. If you work, there must be some result, bad or good. But if you want to enjoy, yourself, then you are kṛpaṇa. And if the result is enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, then you are brāhmaṇa. Result must be there. Any work you do, there must be some result, and that is also described in the... Yajñārthāt karma. Yajña means Viṣṇu. For His sake one should work. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. If you work not for yajña, for your sense gratification, then you become bound up by the result of the karma, good or bad. So if we work for Kṛṣṇa, if the result is given to Kṛṣṇa, that is our perfection. Otherwise, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ*-we remain kṛpaṇa. Guest (2): No, that is what my question is, how to do that. I mean, how in our day to day life... *Prabhupāda: That I have explained. Just like Arjuna, who was a fighter, warrior, means he fought for Kṛṣṇa. For himself, he was hesitating. He put all these questions that "If I kill my brothers, then their wives will be widow, and they will be prostitutes and there will be varṇa*-saṅkara, and then there will be no piṇḍa-dāna and then the whole nation will go to hell," in this way, as he could think. But he was not thinking in terms of Kṛṣṇa. He was thinking in terms of his own benefit, "whether I shall go to hell or heaven." That was his contemplation. Therefore he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā he agreed to Kṛṣṇa's proposal. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā: [Bg. 18.73] "Now my illusion is gone. I have got my real consciousness, so I shall fight." So the fighting was Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when he was trying to become nonviolent, very benevolent to the family, he was chastised by Kṛṣṇa. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādām: [Bg. 2.11] "You are talking like a very learned man but you are fool." So this is our position. We may talk very learned, scholarly, but if we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we are subjected to the chastisement. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg. 2.11]. So this is the position. So nothing is bad if it is engaged for the service of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, however good it may be in the estimation of material conception, it is the cause of bondage, good or bad. It doesn't matter. So you have to learn the art, how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That art you have to learn. Then your life is perfect. Guest (2): You are saying that man shouldn't have bondage? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is under bondage, good or bad. Guest (2): But is good bondage good? *Prabhupāda: Good bondage, but it is bondage, after all. If you are prisoner, first*-class prisoner or third-class prisoner, you are prisoner. Guest (2): But doesn't bondage give the incentive to live? Prabhupāda: No, bondage gives bondage. If you do not know how to get out of the bondage, then you will be more and more in bondage. Guest (2): But if you don't have any bondage, then... Prabhupāda: No, everyone is in bondage. Guest (2): No, I mean, suppose idealistically... Prabhupāda: What idealistic? Guest (2): Hypothetical case that... *Prabhupāda: No, nothing hypothetical. Your bondage... Bondage means that birth, death, old age and disease. This is bondage. We are all living entities, part and parcel of God. We are spirit soul. So this is not our business, birth, death, old age and disease. So bondage means so long you'll get this material body you are under this bondage: birth, death, old age, and disease. Because you are very rich man, getting good salary, it does not mean that you will not die, or disease will not attack you. This is bondage. First of all try to understand what is bondage. Bondage and freedom. Bondage means to be subjected to the condition of this material body. That is called bondage. The body may be elephant's body or tiger's body or Brahmā's body or ant's body, but that is bondage. Because as soon as you get a material body you are under this bondage of birth, death, old age and disease. So your problem is how to get out of this bondage, not that to accept the bondage*-just like I am bound up by iron shackles-"Let me be bound up by golden shackles." So that is bondage. The people do not know. They are satisfied when they are bound up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance. He feels satisfied when he is locked up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance. Guest (2): Nonmaterial bondage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bondage means material. In spiritual life there is no bondage. Guest (2): How about love between people? Just like this... Is that bondage also? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also bondage. Suppose you love your countrymen. So you want to remain a faithful national, so you will get your birth again in this country or that country, as you like. (doorbell rings) So either you get your birth in India or in America, it doesn't matter. You are bound up by the laws of nature. It is not that Americans do not die, only Indians die. Everyone dies. So that is also bondage. Guest (1): How about love towards relatives? They say, "Love your parents," or "Love your wife and children." Isn't that also bondage? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Does that mean you should not love your parents? Prabhupāda: No, there is no love in the material world. You love somebody with some personal interest. So that is not love. Everyone loves. To be frank enough, a wife loves husband so long he is nicely earning, and the husband loves the wife so long she is beautiful. That's all. This is the love. It is not love. It is lust. Love is different thing. Guest (1): How about serving the parents? Prabhupāda: First of all you try to understand one point. Don't jump like that. The same thing is applicable to parents and everything. There is no love in this world. That is illusion. Guest (2): Is it like service to parents without expecting anything from them because they have raised you, they have...? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your duty. Guest (2): Yes, duty. Prabhupāda: That's your duty. Just like to... I do not say that don't love your wife and don't love your parents. But I am just explaining the real situation. *Guest (2): I may be forgiven for diverting from the topic here. In Twelfth Chapter when Lord says, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ... [Bg. 15.7]. Prabhupāda: That is Fifteenth Chapter. Guest (2): Fifteenth, yes. What is the difference between the jīva and soul? Is it good to learn the differences and understand the depth of these things? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you do not learn, then you are darkness. Just like mamaivāṁśo. Just like your finger is the part of your body, similarly, you are part of the body of Kṛṣṇa. Now you have to learn. If you are part, just like finger is the part of my body... What is the duty of the finger? Guest (2): To serve body. *Prabhupāda: That's all. The finger, so long it is serving my body like this, like this, it is in real condition, real, healthy condition. And if it is painful*-it cannot serve-then it is not in healthy condition. So therefore any living entity who is not serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not in healthy condition. He is in māyā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is in māyā. That is, Kṛṣṇa says, *Guest (2): Just now you said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This śaraṇaṁ vraja, could you just enlighten... *Prabhupāda: Śaraṇaṁ vraja*-you just surrender. Whatever you say... Guest (2): In daily life, I mean, like our practical life, how śaraṇāgati could be...? Prabhupāda: Yes, śaraṇāgati. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was hesitating to fight but when he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he fought. Guest (2): He was lucky. Lord Kṛṣṇa was right there with him. *Prabhupāda: So Lord Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there. That is Lord Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Lord Kṛṣṇa and His instruction. He is absolute. Just like these boys. They are serving Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa is not present. Lord Kṛṣṇa is present but you do not know how He is present. Lord Kṛṣṇa is present by His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa. This Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa is not different. That you do not know. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa is gone, but Kṛṣṇa is present by His instruction, by His name, by His form, by His quality, by His pastime, because He is absolute. Kṛṣṇa is never absent. Simply we have to see, we have to make our eyes to see Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is always present. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Those who are saintly person, they are seeing twenty-four hours, every minute, Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. How? Premāñjana-cchurita. When there is love of Kṛṣṇa. Just like ordinarily, if you love somebody, you will find him everywhere. So you have to develop your love for Kṛṣṇa; *then Kṛṣṇa will be seen. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Just like sun. You cannot see sun at night, but when sun becomes revealed before you you can see sun and yourself and the whole world. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa will reveal, being pleased with your service and love, you will see Kṛṣṇa, you will see yourself, you will see the whole world. So simply you have to... Just like one man is suffering from cataract. So by surgical operation make the eyes free from the cataract disease*-he will see everything. Similarly, the cataract of your present eyes, material eyes, can be, I mean to say, relieved by Kṛṣṇa prema. Then you will see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, premā pum-artho mahān. If anything has to be achieved within this world, that is Kṛṣṇa prema. That we should engage our life, how to achieve Kṛṣṇa prema. But we are not interested in Kṛṣṇa prema. So that is illusion. Human life is meant for achieving that stage, Kṛṣṇa prema, love of Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful. Guest (2): What is this greatness, that, to know the divinity when Lord Kṛṣṇa says that "Those who know that I am divine and..." Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. How... What is the real meaning of knowing it, I mean. I read it ten times... *Prabhupāda: That is also: tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. You find out somebody who can instruct you. But you find out*-praṇipāta. You surrender, not with challenge. And sevā. And then you ask him and you know it. But if you have no praṇipāta, no sevā, simply challenging spirit, you'll never know it. That is not the process. If you want to know, then you must find out somebody where you can surrender. And you must... Surrender means you must render service to him, and then you can ask him and he'll give you. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. That is the process. If you are serious to know, then you find out somebody where you can surrender. Because Kṛṣṇa also wants surrender, so you have to surrender to His representative. Then you will know. Guest (2): And can one not directly surrender to Kṛṣṇa through his own feelings and heart and...? *Prabhupāda: No. No, that is not the process. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches, gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. He wants to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the process. If you want to know Kṛṣṇa directly it is not possible. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]? And how you can approach Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): Chanting His names, surrendering to Him, feeling love for Him, doing service. Is that not or would that not take one person to...? *Prabhupāda: No, that is not the way. Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. You have to accept the paramparā, disciplic succession. That is a challenge, that "I don't want to surrender anyone." Guest (2): No, not challenge... I'm not saying... I mean, I'm not... *Prabhupāda: No, it is not possible. Kṛṣṇa accepted Himself a guru. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted a guru. They are God Himself. So how you can accept: "I can approach Kṛṣṇa without guru"? Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā. Kṛṣṇa... When actually you want Kṛṣṇa seriously*-you do not know who is guru-then Kṛṣṇa will give you a guru. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He was advised by his mother that "If you go to the forest you can see God." So he went there. But when he was very serious, then Kṛṣṇa sent him Nārada Muni. So if you are actually serious about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa will send you some of His representative and he will take charge of you. That is the process. If you do not find a guru, that means Kṛṣṇa is not yet pleased, either you are not serious. Just like when you become serious of studying any subject matter, you find out some college, some institution. You cannot purchase the books and read at home and become expert engineer, expert, no. That is not the process. Therefore the Vedic knowledge is called śruti. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. So we have to hear by paramparā system. You attend the lectures of a professor because he has heard. He has listened the same instruction from his professor. You don't go to a professor who has never gone to school and college. Do you go there? So this knowledge... As material knowledge is received by paramparā, similarly, spiritual knowledge is received also by paramparā. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. By paramparā system. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa: "Because the paramparā was lost, therefore the science was lost. Therefore I shall again say the same system to you." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "I am trying to speak to you because you are My devotee. You are very dear friend." So similarly, one has to become a dear friend of Kṛṣṇa and devotee of Kṛṣṇa before he can understand what Kṛṣṇa says. You see? There are so many Bhagavad-gītā editions in all the countries. So many big, big scholars presented Bhagavad-gītā. There was not a single person converted to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Do you agree to this point? Before this movement not a single person... Now there hundreds and thousands are coming because the Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is, not with adulteration. Now our Bhagavad-gītā As It Is... Have you brought book? Pradyumna: No. *Prabhupāda: This is published by Macmillan. It is eleven hundred pages. They printed in July fifty thousand copies. That is finished. Now they are going to print second edition. Since 1968 they are publishing our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, and every year they are getting one edition. From the beginning... I think this is the fifth or sixth edition and their business manager, trades manager's report is that this Bhagavad-gītā is increasing sale, others' dwindling, because it is presented as it is. We present Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." We present Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." We teach people, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. We say, "You become Kṛṣṇa bhakta. You offer worship to Kṛṣṇa." We don't change anything. And therefore people are accepting. Adulteration, how long it will go on? You know very well. You are from Delhi. There is a Punjabi halwai (?), in the Chowry Bazaar. You know that? Guest (4): No, I have heard about it. *Prabhupāda: Because he sells, I mean to say, confectionery made of pure ghee you'll find always hundreds of customers waiting. And there are many dalda ghee shop not so crowded. Some cheap men are going there. So anything you present pure, there will be automatic customer. And that is being proved. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is, and He is being accepted everywhere, all over the world. But as soon as you make adulteration Kṛṣṇa, manufacture your concoction-"Kṛṣṇa means this, Kurukṣetra means this," all nonsense talk*-immediately lost. Why should we do that, adulteration? There is no business adulterating. So many scholars, so many swamis, they have simply presented adulterated. Just like even Mahatma Gandhi says, "The Kurukṣetra means this body." And where he got this meaning? Where is the dictionary meaning? You should speak something which must be authorized. Where is the dictionary where Kurukṣetra is explained as this body? And Kurukṣetra station is still existing. People are going to Kurukṣetra for religious performances. Kuru-kṣetre dharma-kṣetre. Why should I interpret Kurukṣetra, "the body"? This is going on. So that will not be effective. It may be effective, a few person, somebody's admirer. But it will not go far above that. But if you present as it is, it will be accepted by any real inquirer. Guest (2): *Gītā* Press, Gorakhpur, has those publications. I have one of them. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gītā* Press has got different versions also. Guest (2): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Gītā Press also tried to preach Gītā since forty, forty years. But Bhagavad*-gītā was, published by Gītā Press, was not in the Western countries. And we published this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is in 1968. It is now all over the world. And the Macmillan Company, the biggest publisher of the world, they are taking interest. Not only this book. For this book they are taking gradually all our books. So our point is: present Kṛṣṇa as it is. That is real Indian culture. Don't present Kṛṣṇa adulterated. Your country will be glorified. The whole world will accept that India has got something to give. You are simply now beggar. So I have come to this country not to beg, but to give. That is my mission. And they are feeling, "Yes, we are getting something substantial." Guest (3): There is one question which many people have asked. You don't have to answer them but sometimes they say, "Why is it that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is so popular in this country, has so many centers, and not that many centers in India where Lord Kṛṣṇa...?" Prabhupāda: He does not know. He is a foolish man. In India there are millions of centers. He does not know that. Simply if you go to Vṛndāvana you'll find five thousand temples. He does not know. He speaks nonsense. He speaks nonsense. The man who has spoken like that, he is a nonsense. He does not know what is the condition of India. Mass India, every person knows Kṛṣṇa. Every person is a temple of Kṛṣṇa. He does not know. He has spoken nonsense. Guest (3): He has seen the book and from where the centers are listed, that's all. He is... *Prabhupāda: No, we have got center in Bombay. No, I have... My personal centers are not there. But just like Gītā Press. They are also publishing Bhagavad*-gītā, millions of copies every month, and that is being distributed in India. So why does he say, "Indians, they do not know"? That is foolishness. Every Indian knows what is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): You're talking about the center, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (3): Yeah, they look at this point of view because they think if that's the only movement which he associated with Lord Kṛṣṇa, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is almost in every home in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Janmāṣṭamī, Kṛṣṇa's birthday, is observed by every Indian still, although artificially they are being checked not to take to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is presented by government in so many bad way. You see? In government there is a paper. It is called "Indian Culture," something. In that paper Kṛṣṇa is depicted as a bil boy. (?) Guest (3): What? Prabhupāda: Bil boy means just like black, Negro. And He is worshiped. Such a rascal. Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, and for Kṛṣṇa worship so many Vedic literature, and government is presenting Him as bil boy. Just see what kind of government we have got. Guest (2): Is that right? It is surprise to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. You'll find they have got paper, "Indian Culture," or... Yes. One Mr. Ananda, he has written that nonsense article. Guest (3): Of course, I have seen before 1963, before I came to this country. Prabhupāda: So government is presenting Kṛṣṇa like that. Dr. Radhakrishnan has spoken like that. Yes. What he has spoken? Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa was an aboriginal chief, tribal chief. *Prabhupāda: Such poor fund of knowledge, he is advertised as great scholar. He has no knowledge, and he writes Bhagavad*-gītā. And now he is... For this offense he is now dead body. He cannot recognize any man, like this. He cannot say, "I am hungry." His daughter is always attending, giving some food, sitting idly. Just... What is the month? Śyāmasundara: In Madras? We were there in February. Prabhupāda: Yes. February. Yes. I was there. I saw him. I saw Mr. Raja Gopala Acarya with him. So he is a dead body, living dead body. Guest (2): Raja Gopala Acarya has also written a lot of books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not lot of. Some books he has written. So our request is to the Indians especially that we have got something to give to the world. Simply don't beg. Give something. Then you will be honored. You cannot compete with them by technology, by learning here. That is not possible. If you can give them something, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (2): How far is saṁskāra powerful like...? *Prabhupāda: Well, saṁskāra you can change in a second. Saṁskāra may be powerful. (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa assures you, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He will give you protection. Saṁskāra means you did some sinful activities and you are suffering. But He gives you protection. Sarva-pāpebhyo. Then what is the meaning of saṁskāra? You can change your saṁskāra immediately by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Why you are so much concerned with saṁskāra? He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ... [Bg. 18.66], ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... The saṁskāra as effects of sinful activities, that is troublesome. So He gives you protection. Mā śucaḥ, "Don't worry." Why don't you take this? You don't want to change your saṁskāra, and who can help you? That is a different thing. You don't want to change. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is ready to give you all help. How their saṁskāra is changed? From the very beginning of their life they are addicted to these principles: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. How they have changed? They don't touch it. How it has become possible? Guest (2): I believe they were great yogīs in their past lives. Prabhupāda: And why you not? Guest (2): I don't know that. Prabhupāda: Because you don't surrender. That is the fact. If you surrender, you become also great yogī. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Don't be sorry. Indians, generally they say, "Oh, we know everything about Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn?" Yes. When they go to some Indian, they say like that. What do they say? Śyāmasundara: "We know all these things." Guest (2): I don't say I know everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that Madrasi gentleman? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chiwari? Dr. Chiwari? Prabhupāda: Yes. In your... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Krishnamurti. *Prabhupāda: Ah. They think, "Oh, what we have to learn from them about Kṛṣṇa? We are all*-knowing." (Hindi) And you were speaking, some of your Madras colleagues. They come here and immediately they learn how to eat meat. (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Before they came they were not eating meat, but when they come here they normally, they buy it, they cook it, and they not only just... They buy, themselves, and they do everything. Prabhupāda: London... (Hindi) Practically cent percent Indians, they eat meat. *Guest (4): Swamiji, what is the role of meat*-eating in... *Prabhupāda: Meat*-eater means sinners. He cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Guest (4): Well, where is it...? *Prabhupāda: It is said in the śāstra, striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ dyūtaṁ yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhāḥ: "Four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex life, striyaḥ; sūnā, the animal slaughter; pānam, intoxication; dyūtam, gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. So you have to break these pillars of sinful life. Then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. They have broken. On my word they have broken the first four pillars and therefore they are advanced. Guest (4): I have had several people ask my why I don't eat meat and why Indians, some Indians don't eat meat. And I could not give them a convincing answer. *Prabhupāda: But that is there. It is stated in the śāstra. These are four sinful activities. [break] ...upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ. You have to take knowledge from tattva-darśī, jñānī, not from some people, nonsense. What is the value of some people? Guest (5): How to identify a true learned man? *Prabhupāda: That you have to become a learned man. If you are a fool, how you can understand who is learned man? You have to become a learned man. Is it not? Otherwise you will be cheated. Anyone will come-"I am learned man. I am God"*-and you will be cheated, if you do not know what is God, what is learned man. So first of all you have to become learned man. Then you will understand who is learned man. *Guest (2): But to become learned, you go to so*-called learned people, and you go to so-called learned people. How do you know that those so-called learned are... Prabhupāda: That has spoiled our Indian culture. That has spoiled our Indian culture. Everyone become learned man; everyone become a spiritualist. That's another... So best thing is to... Why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa as the most learned man? That will save you. Everyone accepts Him, all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Lord Caitanya. So why don't you accept Kṛṣṇa? Why you're searching after learned man? Here is the best learned man. Simple truth. If you simply argue, that is a different thing. But if you want really learned man, Kṛṣṇa is here. Take Kṛṣṇa as He is; then you learn everything. So I shall go now. What is the time? *Satsvarūpa: It's eight*-thirty now. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...fruits... Just accept Kṛṣṇa, the most learned man. Follow His teaching. Your life is perfect. And practically you see. They have accepted Kṛṣṇa the supreme teacher, and how their life is becoming perfect. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Unless one is very, very intelligent he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. As Kṛṣṇa is very cunning, intelligent, so His devotee is also very cunning and intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births' struggling, when he actually becomes wise, jñānavān," māṁ prapadyate, "he surrenders to Me." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: [Bg. 7.19] "That mahātmā is very rare to be found." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ, bhajanty ananya*-manaso jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam [Bg. 9.13]. This is mahātmā. This is description of mahātmā. Guest (2): Why... When you said ananya, is there a conflict between a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa when he chants Lord Rāma's name...? *Prabhupāda: Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Kṛṣṇa means Viṣṇu*-tattva. So Viṣṇu-tattva has many forms. So any Viṣṇu form will do. Śyāmasundara: Do you have another small table? Guest (2): Yes. Śyāmasundara: Or else we can take this one. *Satsvarūpa: So please come to the temple tomorrow, to take darśana. I know everyone works or is busy, but try to come at least in the evening and see this. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying, the name is not different than Kṛṣṇa. We chant on our big japa beads. The holy name is the same as Kṛṣṇa is in His form or in the picture or the same as His philosophy. And so these Deity forms, we don't consider them as marble Deities but as Kṛṣṇa Himself. People misunderstand. They think this is idol worship, that we are worshiping some idol, bowing down to idols. Same with the food, they don't understand. We offer food to the Deity. But Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that "If you offer Me a little fruit or a leaf or water..." Prabhupāda: So Śyāmasundara, you can invite all these gentlemen tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: He is doing that now. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Satsvarūpa: So that is actually Kṛṣṇa Himself within the Deity and He accepts the food by our prayers. So just by His seeing, by His glancing... Try to come and see all these things. And every Sunday we have a festival there. Every evening we have classes on Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. And as long as we students repeat what Śrīla Prabhupāda said, they have the same potency. We don't try to make something up that our guru didn't teach us. We just try to present his teachings. Guest (2): That's good. Please take it and then we're going to distribute it to everybody. This is Sister Lucille Perry. She has been to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Come here. Lucille: It was a short trip... Prabhupāda: You had been in India? Lucille: Yes, sir. I missed you by one or two days. I went to Bombay, and I was staying at Swami Muktananda's, and it said you would be there. The next two days you were going to be there for about a week. And since you have to have permission to leave, I said, "Well, that's why I had gone to India." Prabhupāda: The Bombay, you have seen our place? Lucille: No, sir. Prabhupāda: We have got our place in Juhu. Lucille: You know Prajāpati in Boston? Satsvarūpa: Prajāpati, the president of Boston temple. He's a Dallas boy. He's from Dallas. Lucille: His name was Chandra but (indistinct) Guest (2): Is he in Dallas? (several people talking, prasāda being served) Prabhupāda: What is that? Milk? So many nice preparations given by Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I eat meat? Where is the necessity? Human being must discriminate what he shall eat. If you say, "Everything is food," then stool is also food for the hog. But the food for the human being must be different from the hog. Guest (2): Is it our duty to convince everybody and to argue with people and say, "Now..." Because most of the people would argue for, "Where is your protein?" "Needs his protein," and you know, when they talk in terms of body consciousness rather than Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It's very hard to argue with that. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have argued. All these European boys, I had to argue with them. (laughter) Lucille: (indistinct) in Bombay and the first thing he did was argue with me. Prabhupāda: Big, big swamis, they are advocating, "Eat meat." Guest (2): Is that right? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ramakrishna Mission, they eat meat. Guest (2): I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Lucille: I don't know about the swamis, but I know a lot of the Vedāntists do. Guest (2): That's news to me. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vivekananda says, "What is that, meat*-eating?" Kṛṣṇa says, makes division... Guest (2): Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was the incarnation of Lord Rāma and Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: That is to Vivekananda, not to others. Guest (2): Was he not realized? Prabhupāda: That is another question. Don't bring controversial. If you have got Kṛṣṇa, what is the use of Ramakrishna? When you have got Kṛṣṇa original, why should you go to Ramakrishna? A shopkeeper says, "This is the same medicine, sir, but it is very cheap." But a real customer says, "No, I want the original. I don't want this imitation. Give me the original." Accepting Ramakrishna as incarnation, so why shall I go to incarnation when I have got Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): Like you said, guru you know. We go through... Prabhupāda: There is paramparā. So there is symptoms of guru not that everyone becomes guru. These are controversial points. We don't want this. Why don't you give the ladies first, these ladies? (Hindi) Yes. I am old man. Old men, children, ladies, they must be first supplied. That's... Guest (2): First (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Our Indian etiquette is that, first brāhmaṇas, then woman, children, then others. Lucille: In Mexico too, the older people. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are coming from Mexico? Lucille: No, I have... Prabhupāda: We have got our temple in Mexico City. What is the address of our temple? Śyāmasundara: It's near Chapultepec Park. Lucille: I hope to go visit my grandmother. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mexico is very nice city. I have gone there. Guest (2): Being a brāhmaṇa by birth, does it mean anything? Prabhupāda: No, they are not born of brāhmaṇa father. Now they are brāhmaṇas. Guest (2): But you were saying about brāhmaṇas, so I... *Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means qualified brāhmaṇas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brāhmaṇa? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows? Śyāmasundara: All over Texas. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): Fort Worth. Śyāmasundara: Where we went to that television show today, that was Fort Worth. That's another city. They have more slaughterhouses. Guest (2): I had some arguments about this. Some people won't eat cow. They say, "It's not Indian cow, so we can eat it." (laughs) All kinds of intelligent arguments. Prabhupāda: Indian people say like that? Guest (2): Some of them, not all. It's not said, anybody. It's just argument of people that... Even Americans. People, they say, "We are not killing your sacred cow because your sacred cow is in your country." It was long ago, I remember. During lunch break we had some argument. Prabhupāda: Then what are these? American cows? Guest (2): Yes. They said, "Our cows are not holy." *Prabhupāda: Apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. They are blind. They do not know about self. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Everyone is born fool. So fool's activities means defeat. So human life, although born fool, they should have knowledge. Without knowledge all their activities are defeat of life, parābhava. So long he is not inquisitive to understand what is his self, whatever he is doing, it is simply for his defeat, parābhava. *Guest (2): One thing I have been thinking for years together, but I could never understand it. In Bhagavad*-gītā when Lord Kṛṣṇa..., Arjuna asks a question, kena prayukto 'yaṁ pāpaṁ carati pūruṣaḥ. Lord Kṛṣṇa says, kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. The kāma... Where is the beginning of this kāma? *Prabhupāda: Rajo*-guṇa. That is stated, rajo-guṇa. (Hindi) Rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Therefore you have to come to the sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa, to come to the sattva-guṇa, you have to sāttvika vikāra (Hindi)... They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. That is sattva-guṇa. Satyaṁ śaucam. Guest (2): Guṇa... (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Guṇa, develop. They are... They are developing these brahminical qualifications, coming to sattva*-guṇa. From rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, they are coming to sattva-guṇa. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Rajas-tamaḥ, these qualities are manifested by lust and greediness. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. When one's heart will not be disturbed by these two qualities, tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, then he will be situated in sattva-guṇa. Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he becomes satisfied. At that time he becomes jolly. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ, bhagavat-tattva-vijñānaṁ mukta-saṅgasya jāyate [SB 1.2.20]. When he becomes jolly, being situated in sattva-guṇa, at that time he can understand what is bhagavat-tattva, what is the Absolute Truth, not in the rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. That is not possible. That is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, *Guest (2): The problem is most of the time we spend our life in rajo*-guṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): The problem is most of the time... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (2): ...life goes in rajo*-guṇa. *Prabhupāda: Tamo*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa. *Guest (2): Tamo and rajo*-guṇa. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: Do you want us to distribute this? Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is special water from the Ganges if you want to drink some. Prabhupāda: I have taken it, little. That's all. (pause) Harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) So tomorrow you are all invited. Please come. You are also invited. Śyāmasundara: A special ceremony tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Can we get one picture of the group? Prabhupāda: Yes, sit down. No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (2): Why don't you all move and please stand... (Hindi) Can some of them stand over that side? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Why don't you... You could come on this side and ladies over there. You people have to sit on your knees. I am sorry. I think I'll take one group, some people, and then do some other. (Some time passes.) Prabhupāda: So it is a happy meeting? Guest (6): Yes, Mahārāja is converting (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Please come tomorrow. (Hindi) What time you have given them, any time? Satsvarūpa: Yes. The ceremony is in the morning but if they can't make it, all day long we'll be distributing prasādam. Come and see the Deities. Prabhupāda: Yes, any time you can convince him to come. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Guest (6): Thank you. (Hindi) (end) Conversation -- September 12, 1972, Dallas (conversation about teaching children) Child: "A" that's a long "a". Prabhupāda: "O" "a" Child: "O" "a" Prabhupāda: Got it? Child: Yea I was learning it before with the Sanskrit teacher. Prabhupāda: Now you do not know? Child: I know some of them now, "a" "a" Prabhupāda: Then write. Child: Here? It doesn’t . . . Prabhupāda: You're . . . (indistinct) . . . just write here. "ta". By moving his hand, when it is perfect the next. So you should practice for two three hours daily and similarly each and every student should be . . . (indistinct) . . . and the class will go on for three hours. Unless he's perfect in writing the next letter should not be taught. This is the process. So you will have to fill up this and see it to teacher, show it to the teacher whether it is perfect or not. This is the way, similarly ABCD, 1 2 3, everything should be written and you must know this is 1, this is 2, and at the end of the class they should chant. Just like two multiplied by two equal to four, chant it. Everybody: Two multiplied by two is equal to four. Prabhupāda: Two multiplied by three equal to six. Everybody: Two multiplied by three equal to six. Prabhupāda: Two multiplied by four equal to eight. Everybody: Two multiplied by four equal to eight. Child: Eight. Prabhupāda: Like that, up to 10. Two into two, two into three, two into four, they should learn, immediately they will say. So that when they multiply by practice immediately two into two is four. At the end of the class this should be, chant for half an hour. Chanting, multiplications. Practice it, similarly daily two, three pages every each student should write and the teacher should see whether it is right and sign, yes it is all right. The next lesson, the next lesson, they should learn ABCD, and the Sanskrit, this a , ā , i , ī , u , ū , ṛ , ṟ , ḷ , e , ai , o , au , ka , kha , ga , gha , it is all there written. What is the difficulty? Is that all right? So use the Sanskrit, who is teaching you? Who is teaching English eh? Who is teaching English the same way. If somebody will teach mathematics, who will teach maths. Eh? That's all right. So one teaches English one teaches Sanskrit and one teaches mathematics. Each student should be taught and practised. So as I have called him and I can call another and another and another and another and 10 students I can take a lesson. Any another, one finishes he goes, he . . . (indistinct) . . . some exercise, engage in exercise for two hours three hours, so in this way. Is that all right? Devotee: Yes. He has a question to ask. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He has a question to ask. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): The others when they are. Prabhupāda: Come here, not from backside. Devotee (2): The other children, while, while one child is teaching the other children will, how will they be engaged? Devotee: Practice. Devotee (2): But how? Prabhupāda: Practice. Devotee (2): How? All the other children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): In other words you will be teaching one child at a time. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (2): And then the others they are also practising during this time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he has been given lesson, he’ll go on practising, the next student comes, practising, other practising others. Mātājī: He is asking me while the first one is being taught. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mātājī: The others should practice what they have already learned? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Devotee (2): And . . . (indistinct) . . . children will they be in the same class as the older children? Prabhupāda: No, suppose he has learned a , ā , so he is elder so he can be given i , ī , u , ū , further instruction. The others should be given the beginning instruction. Devotee: So for instance, everybody takes Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone should. Devotee: Everyone take Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be taught Sanskrit, everyone should be taught English. Give him lessons and let him practice. Let another come, give him lesson and then practically . . . Devotee: The younger children they are just learning the ABC and the others are learning further. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: The older ones. Prabhupāda: Yes. So everyone will be engaged. Devotee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Simply one teachers is taking care of 10, that's all. Devotee (2): In the English class you would like it if the older students studied your books and learned all the vocabulary and all the . . . how to. At the same time understand your books. Is that how you would have the English class? Prabhupāda: No. They must have first, first reading books some passive reading. Just like A N D and, that's effective, all of a sudden if you give big words, they must know select A N D and, A N D and, A C T act, like that. A B act, A C act, A D and A T at, like that, that involves A and another alphabet, A B act, A C act in this way let them practice to compound syllable that A C T act, A double D add, A P apt, in this way. What is that? *Mātājī: Previously we had the children writing purports to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam lectures in the morning, the older children. They know how to write but their vocabulary has to be increased, so we’ve been taking vocabulary . . . I’ve been giving vocabulary words, 20, 25 vocabulary and they have been using it in their purports. We are encouraging them in reading and writing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right but they must know how to make syllables. The first book of reading they should be given, just like ABCD. Devotee: Yeah primary. Prabhupāda: Try to form words from, ABCD. That's all, I don’t think immediately our books, will not be suitable. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: They can hear or after hearing they can write in their own words. But unless they know how to setup letters, how they’ll write? So this first lesson should be given all in Sanskrit. English. Mātājī: Each student's progress is individual. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): No matter what age. Prabhupāda: No. That doesn’t matter, whatever he learns he must learn it positively. Not that because he has advanced in age therefore he should be advanced. No. He should be given chance, it doesn’t matter what is the age. But everyone should be engaged, children they should be given exercise. The teachers should, so that they are not idly sitting or talking. If they are therefore playing no, in the classroom no play. They must be engaged in reading or writing. Devotee: Stick, each one carries a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes and you must have stick. Devotee (2): What is that? Devotee: A big stick Prabhupāda: Yes, two sticks can be used. One for head and one for hands. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Those who are too naughty on the head. I tell you, anyone who is very naughty, on the head. And one who is less naughty on the hand. So do good. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: And the stick is for the teacher. If the teacher cannot teach nicely then I shall. Everybody: (laughter) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: How much time shall we give the boys to run and jump in the park? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Should they have time to run and jump in the park every day? And how much? Prabhupāda: Say one hour. Devotee: One hour. Devotee (4): That's our own park too. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Our park. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can play, jump, chant Hare Krishna, dance. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Play like cowherds boy for one hour. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So they should be engaged three hours in the morning. When class begins? Mātājī: 9.15. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: 9.15. Prabhupāda: 9.15 to a half past 12, in the morning and in the evening from 3 to 6. They must have, they must have enough engagement in class. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I would like to . . . saṅkīrtana activities, for the children? Prabhupāda: No. They may perform for saṅkīrtana here, it is temple, they can dance. They should not go outside. That is their waste of time. Devotee (3): Yea. Prabhupāda: So they should not. Devotee: See too many. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: See too many others. Prabhupāda: No no. They should not go outside. They should have their saṅkīrtana in the . . . according to our ārati and especially one hour jumping and playing in the park. Devotee (2): Should they attend all the adult classes, all the adult scripture classes, as well? Prabhupāda: They will not like to. Devotee (2): When the teachers. Prabhupāda: But they can join the chanting and dancing, at all the chanting and dancing. They can sit down, they may hear and join the chanting and dancing. Not . . . they can join adult class but they may not create disturbance. Mātājī: Some of the girls are getting attracted to dressing their Deities and attending to their Deities, bathing. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: Most of the girls are attracted to . . . Prabhupāda: That is extra, not in the school, not in the school. Mātājī: But they can do that. Prabhupāda: They can do, extra. They can paint pictures or do that, extra. But they must give their . . . everyday they must be prepared to do their lessons nicely. It is not that they’re not like to look . . . (indistinct) . . . you give them task, you write 10 pages like this. They must present 10 pages, not that they wasted time dressing the Deities and did not like that. No. That 10 pages must be presented otherwise they will be broken . . . (indistinct) . . . restricting, I tell you break their heads, there is no need of keeping such heads. Child 2: Huh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mātājī: (laughs). Prabhupāda: Strictly they must present 10 pages, daily, otherwise break their heads, I tell you. So? You all remember if you don’t do your tasks daily nicely your heads will be broken. Devotee: So listen boys, Śrīla Prabhupāda is talking. Prabhupāda: And they should be must be strictly disciplined. They cannot make any howling bowling within the class. They must be engaged, three hours in the morning. Devotee: They must sit properly and . . . Prabhupāda: Sit properly or not that doesn’t matter . . . there, sit there . . . but they must work properly. Devotee: Work. Devotee (2): The little children they become very restless sometimes when they sit for a long time. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): The little children they become very restless. Prabhupāda: That will take time, you will have to teach them, to sit nicely. Three hours they can sit. They cannot be restless, they must work three hours. Otherwise how they will be trained up? Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we engage the children when we are chanting japa in the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): They are playing when we chant japa they play, how can we engage them? Early morning when we chant japa . Prabhupāda: You can, can ask them, if not let them play. After attending our maṅgala-ārati , they should be given to eat something, prasādam , little little. Always they play there is no harm, you chant but they must attend their class regularly. Is that alright? Follow this, so I’ll come again tomorrow and see how . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Jaya . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 12, 1972, Dallas (conversation about teaching children) Child: "A" that's a long "a". Prabhupāda: "O" "a" Child: "O" "a" Prabhupāda: Got it? Child: Yea I was learning it before with the Sanskrit teacher. Prabhupāda: Now you do not know? Child: I know some of them now, "a" "a" Prabhupāda: Then write. Child: Here? It doesn’t . . . Prabhupāda: You're . . . (indistinct) . . . just write here. "ta". By moving his hand, when it is perfect the next. So you should practice for two three hours daily and similarly each and every student should be . . . (indistinct) . . . and the class will go on for three hours. Unless he's perfect in writing the next letter should not be taught. This is the process. So you will have to fill up this and see it to teacher, show it to the teacher whether it is perfect or not. This is the way, similarly ABCD, 1 2 3, everything should be written and you must know this is 1, this is 2, and at the end of the class they should chant. Just like two multiplied by two equal to four, chant it. Everybody: Two multiplied by two is equal to four. Prabhupāda: Two multiplied by three equal to six. Everybody: Two multiplied by three equal to six. Prabhupāda: Two multiplied by four equal to eight. Everybody: Two multiplied by four equal to eight. Child: Eight. Prabhupāda: Like that, up to 10. Two into two, two into three, two into four, they should learn, immediately they will say. So that when they multiply by practice immediately two into two is four. At the end of the class this should be, chant for half an hour. Chanting, multiplications. Practice it, similarly daily two, three pages every each student should write and the teacher should see whether it is right and sign, yes it is all right. The next lesson, the next lesson, they should learn ABCD, and the Sanskrit, this a , ā , i , ī , u , ū , ṛ , ṟ , ḷ , e , ai , o , au , ka , kha , ga , gha , it is all there written. What is the difficulty? Is that all right? So use the Sanskrit, who is teaching you? Who is teaching English eh? Who is teaching English the same way. If somebody will teach mathematics, who will teach maths. Eh? That's all right. So one teaches English one teaches Sanskrit and one teaches mathematics. Each student should be taught and practised. So as I have called him and I can call another and another and another and another and 10 students I can take a lesson. Any another, one finishes he goes, he . . . (indistinct) . . . some exercise, engage in exercise for two hours three hours, so in this way. Is that all right? Devotee: Yes. He has a question to ask. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He has a question to ask. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): The others when they are. Prabhupāda: Come here, not from backside. Devotee (2): The other children, while, while one child is teaching the other children will, how will they be engaged? Devotee: Practice. Devotee (2): But how? Prabhupāda: Practice. Devotee (2): How? All the other children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): In other words you will be teaching one child at a time. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (2): And then the others they are also practising during this time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he has been given lesson, he’ll go on practising, the next student comes, practising, other practising others. Mātājī: He is asking me while the first one is being taught. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mātājī: The others should practice what they have already learned? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Devotee (2): And . . . (indistinct) . . . children will they be in the same class as the older children? Prabhupāda: No, suppose he has learned a , ā , so he is elder so he can be given i , ī , u , ū , further instruction. The others should be given the beginning instruction. Devotee: So for instance, everybody takes Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone should. Devotee: Everyone take Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be taught Sanskrit, everyone should be taught English. Give him lessons and let him practice. Let another come, give him lesson and then practically . . . Devotee: The younger children they are just learning the ABC and the others are learning further. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: The older ones. Prabhupāda: Yes. So everyone will be engaged. Devotee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Simply one teachers is taking care of 10, that's all. Devotee (2): In the English class you would like it if the older students studied your books and learned all the vocabulary and all the . . . how to. At the same time understand your books. Is that how you would have the English class? Prabhupāda: No. They must have first, first reading books some passive reading. Just like A N D and, that's effective, all of a sudden if you give big words, they must know select A N D and, A N D and, A C T act, like that. A B act, A C act, A D and A T at, like that, that involves A and another alphabet, A B act, A C act in this way let them practice to compound syllable that A C T act, A double D add, A P apt, in this way. What is that? *Mātājī: Previously we had the children writing purports to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam lectures in the morning, the older children. They know how to write but their vocabulary has to be increased, so we’ve been taking vocabulary . . . I’ve been giving vocabulary words, 20, 25 vocabulary and they have been using it in their purports. We are encouraging them in reading and writing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right but they must know how to make syllables. The first book of reading they should be given, just like ABCD. Devotee: Yeah primary. Prabhupāda: Try to form words from, ABCD. That's all, I don’t think immediately our books, will not be suitable. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: They can hear or after hearing they can write in their own words. But unless they know how to setup letters, how they’ll write? So this first lesson should be given all in Sanskrit. English. Mātājī: Each student's progress is individual. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): No matter what age. Prabhupāda: No. That doesn’t matter, whatever he learns he must learn it positively. Not that because he has advanced in age therefore he should be advanced. No. He should be given chance, it doesn’t matter what is the age. But everyone should be engaged, children they should be given exercise. The teachers should, so that they are not idly sitting or talking. If they are therefore playing no, in the classroom no play. They must be engaged in reading or writing. Devotee: Stick, each one carries a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes and you must have stick. Devotee (2): What is that? Devotee: A big stick Prabhupāda: Yes, two sticks can be used. One for head and one for hands. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Those who are too naughty on the head. I tell you, anyone who is very naughty, on the head. And one who is less naughty on the hand. So do good. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: And the stick is for the teacher. If the teacher cannot teach nicely then I shall. Everybody: (laughter) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: How much time shall we give the boys to run and jump in the park? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Should they have time to run and jump in the park every day? And how much? Prabhupāda: Say one hour. Devotee: One hour. Devotee (4): That's our own park too. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Our park. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can play, jump, chant Hare Krishna, dance. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Play like cowherds boy for one hour. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So they should be engaged three hours in the morning. When class begins? Mātājī: 9.15. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: 9.15. Prabhupāda: 9.15 to a half past 12, in the morning and in the evening from 3 to 6. They must have, they must have enough engagement in class. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I would like to . . . saṅkīrtana activities, for the children? Prabhupāda: No. They may perform for saṅkīrtana here, it is temple, they can dance. They should not go outside. That is their waste of time. Devotee (3): Yea. Prabhupāda: So they should not. Devotee: See too many. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: See too many others. Prabhupāda: No no. They should not go outside. They should have their saṅkīrtana in the . . . according to our ārati and especially one hour jumping and playing in the park. Devotee (2): Should they attend all the adult classes, all the adult scripture classes, as well? Prabhupāda: They will not like to. Devotee (2): When the teachers. Prabhupāda: But they can join the chanting and dancing, at all the chanting and dancing. They can sit down, they may hear and join the chanting and dancing. Not . . . they can join adult class but they may not create disturbance. Mātājī: Some of the girls are getting attracted to dressing their Deities and attending to their Deities, bathing. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: Most of the girls are attracted to . . . Prabhupāda: That is extra, not in the school, not in the school. Mātājī: But they can do that. Prabhupāda: They can do, extra. They can paint pictures or do that, extra. But they must give their . . . everyday they must be prepared to do their lessons nicely. It is not that they’re not like to look . . . (indistinct) . . . you give them task, you write 10 pages like this. They must present 10 pages, not that they wasted time dressing the Deities and did not like that. No. That 10 pages must be presented otherwise they will be broken . . . (indistinct) . . . restricting, I tell you break their heads, there is no need of keeping such heads. Child 2: Huh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mātājī: (laughs). Prabhupāda: Strictly they must present 10 pages, daily, otherwise break their heads, I tell you. So? You all remember if you don’t do your tasks daily nicely your heads will be broken. Devotee: So listen boys, Śrīla Prabhupāda is talking. Prabhupāda: And they should be must be strictly disciplined. They cannot make any howling bowling within the class. They must be engaged, three hours in the morning. Devotee: They must sit properly and . . . Prabhupāda: Sit properly or not that doesn’t matter . . . there, sit there . . . but they must work properly. Devotee: Work. Devotee (2): The little children they become very restless sometimes when they sit for a long time. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): The little children they become very restless. Prabhupāda: That will take time, you will have to teach them, to sit nicely. Three hours they can sit. They cannot be restless, they must work three hours. Otherwise how they will be trained up? Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we engage the children when we are chanting japa in the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): They are playing when we chant japa they play, how can we engage them? Early morning when we chant japa . Prabhupāda: You can, can ask them, if not let them play. After attending our maṅgala-ārati , they should be given to eat something, prasādam , little little. Always they play there is no harm, you chant but they must attend their class regularly. Is that alright? Follow this, so I’ll come again tomorrow and see how . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Jaya . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 13, 1972, Dallas *Prabhupāda: God and we living entities all of us are persons, individual persons . . . (indistinct) . . . so all of us living entities person*-to-person, God is the supreme person and the living entities are, just like in a family the head of the family is the father. He is the head all others, the wife, the children, the servants, they are all subordinate. Similarly God the supreme father he's the principal head of the entire family and all others subordinate, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The singular number person God is supplying the necessities of all others. This is Vedic knowledge, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān , the *Upaniṣads* . So our bhakta philosophy is we are all individuals. God is individual and we are all individuals we live together and along with the supreme person we also enjoy. Just like the gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest perfection. To keep your individuality and dance with the supreme individual person, association. So? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: . . . discipline them in that way. Indian Mātājī: Discipline . . . Prabhupāda: I don’t want to that way . . . (indistinct) Indian Mātājī: No but like in this case. like many time it happens we go on repeating the same, we don’t want . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How to do it? It's material . . . so far as you know in our childhood our teacher used to keep our skin . . . Indian Mātājī: Right, but in Vedic system we don’t have that. Parents all we are forced with spanking they had a very big spat over that. Parents don’t want their children to be spanked from the school, from the school as well as from home . . . (indistinct) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . found out how to control them otherwise how they will be able to manage? (aside) Carefully . . . oh! Indian Mātājī: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Twist her ear? Prabhupāda: They must be conscious that if I do not obey that there will be punishment. That much impression . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: As far as the constant conduct, you know that we can hit and also to instruct them in proper worship of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Now that worship they will do automatically when they will worship, let them come in the temple . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in the class they come and instead of worship they run around and play, fight with one another. Devotee (2): Fight with each other in front of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): Fight each other in front of the Deities. Prabhupāda: So children must be . . . must be very obedient and respectful to the Deities. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should only the devotees, like we have three teachers for each group, or 15 teachers to discipline them. Prabhupāda: Three teachers there is sufficient if you want to keep 300 teachers then I have no objection but three teachers is sufficient. Satsvarūpa: And those three should be the only ones involved with the stick, hitting with a stick none of the other devotees. Prabhupāda: No already three is sufficient. *Satsvarūpa: Concerning, like you have indicated in past letters that association with the children should be only first*-class devotees. What about when . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 13, 1972, Dallas *Prabhupāda: God and we living entities all of us are persons, individual persons . . . (indistinct) . . . so all of us living entities person*-to-person, God is the supreme person and the living entities are, just like in a family the head of the family is the father. He is the head all others, the wife, the children, the servants, they are all subordinate. Similarly God the supreme father he's the principal head of the entire family and all others subordinate, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The singular number person God is supplying the necessities of all others. This is Vedic knowledge, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān , the *Upaniṣads* . So our bhakta philosophy is we are all individuals. God is individual and we are all individuals we live together and along with the supreme person we also enjoy. Just like the gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest perfection. To keep your individuality and dance with the supreme individual person, association. So? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: . . . discipline them in that way. Indian Mātājī: Discipline . . . Prabhupāda: I don’t want to that way . . . (indistinct) Indian Mātājī: No but like in this case. like many time it happens we go on repeating the same, we don’t want . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How to do it? It's material . . . so far as you know in our childhood our teacher used to keep our skin . . . Indian Mātājī: Right, but in Vedic system we don’t have that. Parents all we are forced with spanking they had a very big spat over that. Parents don’t want their children to be spanked from the school, from the school as well as from home . . . (indistinct) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . found out how to control them otherwise how they will be able to manage? (aside) Carefully . . . oh! Indian Mātājī: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Twist her ear? Prabhupāda: They must be conscious that if I do not obey that there will be punishment. That much impression . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: As far as the constant conduct, you know that we can hit and also to instruct them in proper worship of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Now that worship they will do automatically when they will worship, let them come in the temple . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in the class they come and instead of worship they run around and play, fight with one another. Devotee (2): Fight with each other in front of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): Fight each other in front of the Deities. Prabhupāda: So children must be . . . must be very obedient and respectful to the Deities. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should only the devotees, like we have three teachers for each group, or 15 teachers to discipline them. Prabhupāda: Three teachers there is sufficient if you want to keep 300 teachers then I have no objection but three teachers is sufficient. Satsvarūpa: And those three should be the only ones involved with the stick, hitting with a stick none of the other devotees. Prabhupāda: No already three is sufficient. *Satsvarūpa: Concerning, like you have indicated in past letters that association with the children should be only first*-class devotees. What about when . . . (break) (end) Manasa Deha Geha and Purport -- September 22, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (Playing the harmonium, singing the musical notes ṣa, ṛ, gā, ma, pa, dha, ni , low and high, high and low etc. Instructing Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa) Ei shat ta practice korte hobe. (You have to practice these seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct Bengali) . . . it's ṣa. ṛ . Prabhupāda: ṣa, ṛ, gā, ma, pa, dha, ni, ṣa . Now you can play mṛdaṅga? Devotee: He called me . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Plays the harmonium, low and high, high and low etc) Ei shat ta practice koro. (You practice these seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Accha (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Ek, dui, teen, char, panch choy, shat. Abar ek, dui, teen, char, panch choy, shat. (One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Again one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct Bengali) . . . three, four, five, six, seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Four, five, six, seven. So. Ṣa , ṛ , gā , ma , pa , dha , ni . ṣa Prabhupāda: All right. Kṛṣṇa dāsa can play mṛdaṅga ? You can play? Kṛṣṇa dāsa: Yes I can play unless someone else . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Plays the harmonium) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (plays the harmonium) ( Karatālas join in). Stop! (slows the tempo slightly) . . . (returns to the first verse, 1st line followed by 2nd sings 3 times) (returns to the second verse) (returns to the first verse) *(sings kīṭa*-janma hau twice followed by the rest of the first line then followed by 2nd line, then 1st followed by 2nd) (1st followed by 2nd) (1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) (1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) (returns to the first verse, 1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) How many minutes? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I don’t know I left my watch. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I left the stopwatch down in my office. We will find it when we listen and play it back. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I have a real quartz watch. (break) Prabhupāda: deho , geho , jo kichu mor. Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor. This is a song sung by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākur. He is teaching the process of full surrender. Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . First of all, he is surrendering the mind, because mind is the origin of all kinds of speculations; and surrendering, rendering devotional service means first controlling the mind. Therefore he says mānasa , means "mind," then deha : "senses." Śarīra . Deha means this body; body means senses. So, if we surrender the mind unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the senses also become surrendered. *Then, "my home." Deha , geho . Geho means home. Jo kichu mor . Our all possessions are comprising these three things: mind, body and our home. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura proposes to surrender everything. Arpilū tuwā pade , nanda*-kiśor. *Nanda*-kiśor is Kṛṣṇa. So, "I am surrendering my mind, my body and my home unto You." *Now, sampade vipade , jīvane*-maraṇe : "Either I am in happiness or I am in distress, either I am in living condition or I am dead." *Dāy mama gelā , tuwā o*-pada baraṇe :" Now I am relieved. I am feeling relief because I have surrendered unto You everything." *Mārobi rākhobi*-jo icchā tohārā : "Now it is up to You whether You like to keep me or You want to kill me; that depends on You." *Nitya*-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā : "You have got every right to do whatever You think right in relation with Your servant. I am Your eternal servant." Janmāobi moe icchā jadi tor : "If you so desire"—because a devotee goes back to Home, goes back to Godhead—therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura proposes, "If You like that I shall again take birth, it doesn't matter." *Bhakta*-gṛhe jani janma hau mor : "That's only request is that if I have to take my birth, please kindly give me the chance of taking my birth in a devotee's house." *Kīṭa*-janma hau jathā tuwā dās : "I don't mind if I am born as an insect, but I must be in the house of a devotee." *Bahir mukha brahma*-janme nāhi āś : "I do not like nondevotee life. Even if I am born as a Lord Brahmā. I want to remain with the devotees." *Bhukti*-mukti-spṛhā vihīna je bhakta : "I want such devotee who doesn't care for material happiness or spiritual liberation." Labhaite tāko saṅga anurakta : "I simply desire to be associated with such pure devotees." Janaka jananī , dayita , tanay : "Now, henceforward You are my father, You are my brother, You are my daughter, You are my son, You are my Lord, You are my spiritual master, You are my husband, everything You are." Bhakativinoda kohe , śuno kāna : "My Lord, Kāna—Kṛṣṇa, You are the Lover of Rādhārānī, but You are my life and soul, kindly give me protection." . . . So you will play there? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I’ll play it in your room . . . (indistinct) . . . stopwatches . . . when I find the right cable. Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes but it has to be finer. (break) Prabhupāda: mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Deha , deha ? Prabhupāda: Deha , deha . deha , geha *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Deha , geha ? Prabhupāda: Ah..g e h a, mānasa , deha , geha . *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes, mānasa , deha , geha . Prabhupāda: Yes . . . your wife has come here? No? Pradyumna: No. I would have brought her except I didn’t know if the . . . (indistinct) . . . here. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ah Pradyumna . . . (indistinct) . . . did not come? . . . (indistinct) . . . and another thing you remember I sent one article to Madras. Pradyumna: Nāgarāja Rao. You never received a reply, I don’t think. Prabhupāda: Ah, you sent it by registered post? Pradyumna: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So, you can remind him that on such and such day we sent one article written like this. We have not received any acknowledgement. So if you have published kindly send us one copy. If you have not published then. You can return us the article. Devotee (3): I’m here now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): I’m here to learn. Prabhupāda: So stay here for some days, yes. That will be nice. Devotee (3): Is it possible that I may speak to you about on certain matters? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes. Devotee (3): I mean when you have the time. My wife also sent you, when you were in India she made you a bead bag. She sent you did you ever receive it? Prabhupāda: In India? Devotee (3): Yes she sent it to India. To Africa first and then they sent it to India, she wanted to know. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Devotee (3): She wants to know if you got it? Prabhupāda: So many beads come. Devotee (3): Hm. Śrutakīrti: So many bead bags (laughs). Prabhupāda: So, oh yes! I received one bead bag, yes. Devotee (3): From Sweden? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Devotee (3): That's nice, she wanted to know if . . . Prabhupāda: (sings) Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . (break) (end) Manasa Deha Geha and Purport -- September 22, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (Playing the harmonium, singing the musical notes ṣa, ṛ, gā, ma, pa, dha, ni , low and high, high and low etc. Instructing Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa) Ei shat ta practice korte hobe. (You have to practice these seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct Bengali) . . . it's ṣa. ṛ . Prabhupāda: ṣa, ṛ, gā, ma, pa, dha, ni, ṣa . Now you can play mṛdaṅga? Devotee: He called me . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Plays the harmonium, low and high, high and low etc) Ei shat ta practice koro. (You practice these seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Accha (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Ek, dui, teen, char, panch choy, shat. Abar ek, dui, teen, char, panch choy, shat. (One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Again one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct Bengali) . . . three, four, five, six, seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Four, five, six, seven. So. Ṣa , ṛ , gā , ma , pa , dha , ni . ṣa Prabhupāda: All right. Kṛṣṇa dāsa can play mṛdaṅga ? You can play? Kṛṣṇa dāsa: Yes I can play unless someone else . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Plays the harmonium) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (plays the harmonium) ( Karatālas join in). Stop! (slows the tempo slightly) . . . (returns to the first verse, 1st line followed by 2nd sings 3 times) (returns to the second verse) (returns to the first verse) *(sings kīṭa*-janma hau twice followed by the rest of the first line then followed by 2nd line, then 1st followed by 2nd) (1st followed by 2nd) (1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) (1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) (returns to the first verse, 1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) How many minutes? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I don’t know I left my watch. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I left the stopwatch down in my office. We will find it when we listen and play it back. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I have a real quartz watch. (break) Prabhupāda: deho , geho , jo kichu mor. Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor. This is a song sung by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākur. He is teaching the process of full surrender. Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . First of all, he is surrendering the mind, because mind is the origin of all kinds of speculations; and surrendering, rendering devotional service means first controlling the mind. Therefore he says mānasa , means "mind," then deha : "senses." Śarīra . Deha means this body; body means senses. So, if we surrender the mind unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the senses also become surrendered. *Then, "my home." Deha , geho . Geho means home. Jo kichu mor . Our all possessions are comprising these three things: mind, body and our home. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura proposes to surrender everything. Arpilū tuwā pade , nanda*-kiśor. *Nanda*-kiśor is Kṛṣṇa. So, "I am surrendering my mind, my body and my home unto You." *Now, sampade vipade , jīvane*-maraṇe : "Either I am in happiness or I am in distress, either I am in living condition or I am dead." *Dāy mama gelā , tuwā o*-pada baraṇe :" Now I am relieved. I am feeling relief because I have surrendered unto You everything." *Mārobi rākhobi*-jo icchā tohārā : "Now it is up to You whether You like to keep me or You want to kill me; that depends on You." *Nitya*-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā : "You have got every right to do whatever You think right in relation with Your servant. I am Your eternal servant." Janmāobi moe icchā jadi tor : "If you so desire"—because a devotee goes back to Home, goes back to Godhead—therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura proposes, "If You like that I shall again take birth, it doesn't matter." *Bhakta*-gṛhe jani janma hau mor : "That's only request is that if I have to take my birth, please kindly give me the chance of taking my birth in a devotee's house." *Kīṭa*-janma hau jathā tuwā dās : "I don't mind if I am born as an insect, but I must be in the house of a devotee." *Bahir mukha brahma*-janme nāhi āś : "I do not like nondevotee life. Even if I am born as a Lord Brahmā. I want to remain with the devotees." *Bhukti*-mukti-spṛhā vihīna je bhakta : "I want such devotee who doesn't care for material happiness or spiritual liberation." Labhaite tāko saṅga anurakta : "I simply desire to be associated with such pure devotees." Janaka jananī , dayita , tanay : "Now, henceforward You are my father, You are my brother, You are my daughter, You are my son, You are my Lord, You are my spiritual master, You are my husband, everything You are." Bhakativinoda kohe , śuno kāna : "My Lord, Kāna—Kṛṣṇa, You are the Lover of Rādhārānī, but You are my life and soul, kindly give me protection." . . . So you will play there? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I’ll play it in your room . . . (indistinct) . . . stopwatches . . . when I find the right cable. Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes but it has to be finer. (break) Prabhupāda: mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Deha , deha ? Prabhupāda: Deha , deha . deha , geha *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Deha , geha ? Prabhupāda: Ah..g e h a, mānasa , deha , geha . *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes, mānasa , deha , geha . Prabhupāda: Yes . . . your wife has come here? No? Pradyumna: No. I would have brought her except I didn’t know if the . . . (indistinct) . . . here. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ah Pradyumna . . . (indistinct) . . . did not come? . . . (indistinct) . . . and another thing you remember I sent one article to Madras. Pradyumna: Nāgarāja Rao. You never received a reply, I don’t think. Prabhupāda: Ah, you sent it by registered post? Pradyumna: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So, you can remind him that on such and such day we sent one article written like this. We have not received any acknowledgement. So if you have published kindly send us one copy. If you have not published then. You can return us the article. Devotee (3): I’m here now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): I’m here to learn. Prabhupāda: So stay here for some days, yes. That will be nice. Devotee (3): Is it possible that I may speak to you about on certain matters? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes. Devotee (3): I mean when you have the time. My wife also sent you, when you were in India she made you a bead bag. She sent you did you ever receive it? Prabhupāda: In India? Devotee (3): Yes she sent it to India. To Africa first and then they sent it to India, she wanted to know. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Devotee (3): She wants to know if you got it? Prabhupāda: So many beads come. Devotee (3): Hm. Śrutakīrti: So many bead bags (laughs). Prabhupāda: So, oh yes! I received one bead bag, yes. Devotee (3): From Sweden? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Devotee (3): That's nice, she wanted to know if . . . Prabhupāda: (sings) Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . (break) (end) Nitai Guna Mani Amara -- September 23, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (singing with harmonium) (break) play like this… (plays mṛdaṅga ) Can you play like this . . . (plays mṛdaṅga , vocalises beat) All right. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . it takes me a long time. (harmonium, mṛdaṅga , karatālas playing) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . again. Prabhupāda: This is not good. Devotee: Alright I think . . . (indistinct) (harmonium, mṛdaṅga , karatālas playing) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Do you want to play . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Would you like to play mṛdaṅga over later? (break) Prabhupāda: Play? (background discussion) Prabhupāda: You can play karatālas very softly, little. (sings bhajan ) Prabhupāda: Let us see, by playing mṛdaṅga how it comes. (discussion amongst devotees) (break) ( mṛdaṅga and karatālas playing) (discussion about recording) ( mṛdaṅga and karatālas playing) (end) Nitai Guna Mani Amara -- September 23, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (singing with harmonium) (break) play like this… (plays mṛdaṅga ) Can you play like this . . . (plays mṛdaṅga , vocalises beat) All right. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . it takes me a long time. (harmonium, mṛdaṅga , karatālas playing) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . again. Prabhupāda: This is not good. Devotee: Alright I think . . . (indistinct) (harmonium, mṛdaṅga , karatālas playing) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Do you want to play . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Would you like to play mṛdaṅga over later? (break) Prabhupāda: Play? (background discussion) Prabhupāda: You can play karatālas very softly, little. (sings bhajan ) Prabhupāda: Let us see, by playing mṛdaṅga how it comes. (discussion amongst devotees) (break) ( mṛdaṅga and karatālas playing) (discussion about recording) ( mṛdaṅga and karatālas playing) (end) Nitai Guna Mani Amara and Purport -- September 24, 1972, Los Angeles (harmonium) Prabhupāda: So you are beginning from here? Devotee: Yes Prabhupāda: Play like this. ( taṁburā tuning) . . . (indistinct) You cannot play. There. Play it nicely. (chants 3 times) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (break) Try to play mṛdaṅga . Karāndhara: Yes. Karatālas are in the room? Prabhupāda: Yes. ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) (tapping sound) One two three. Devotee: One? Prabhupāda: One two three. Yes. So. Permanent, you follow? ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ). One two three, then one two, one two and three. ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) That's not good . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Simply one two . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) Yes. (break) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) (break) ( mṛdaṅga plays, then karatālas ) Well that's all right. Devotee: I just don’t get it. Devotees: (laughter) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . from inside they bring . . . (indistinct) . . . a small child and he cannot restrain? A small . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nature's way. Take care of the child immediately. When boys are spoiled? Simply by bad association, that's all. The world is so much polluted any innocent child can be polluted. That is going on everywhere all over the world. The whole world is polluted even the best child is polluted. When? As soon as he goes to school and meets his friends, finished. The schools, colleges are slaughterhouses. (break) (purport) *Nitāi guṇa*-maṇi āmār nitāi guṇa-maṇi —this is a song sung by Locana Dāsa Ṭhākura, almost a contemporary of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has got many books on the life and precepts of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he is saying that Lord Nityānanda is full of good qualities, guṇa-maṇi . *Guṇa*-maṇi means the jewel of all qualities. So nitāi guṇa-maṇi āmār nitāi guṇa-maṇi . He is repeatedly uttering that Lord Nityānanda is the reservoir of all good qualities. Āniyā premera vanyā bhāsāilo avanī . And on account of His spiritual qualities, he inundated the whole world by the flood of love of God. It is by His kindness people can feel what is love of God. Premer vanyā loiyā nitāi āilā gauḍa-deśe . When Caitanya Mahāprabhu left home and took sannyas , He made His headquarter at Jagannātha Purī. So after His accepting the sannyas order, when He left His home and country Lord Nityānanda Prabhu also accompanied Him up to Jagannātha Purī. *So after a few days, Lord Caitanya requested Him that, "If both of us remain here, then who will preach in Bengal?" Bengal is known as gauḍa*-deśe. So under the order of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He brought from Him the flood of love of Godhead and He distributed in the whole of Bengal, gauḍa-deśe . And in that flood of love of God, all devotees became drowned. Only those who were not devotees, they could not drown but they were floating, dīna hīna bāche . But so far Nityānanda Prabhu is concerned, He does not make any discrimination between devotees and nondevotees. Dīna hīna patita pāmara nāhi bāche. Poor or rich or enlightened or foolish, everyone could take the instruction of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and become drowned in the ocean of love of Godhead. Such love of Godhead is brahmār durlabha . Even Lord Brahmā, who is the supreme teacher within this universe, he also cannot relish. But by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Mahāprabhu, this love of Godhead was distributed to everyone without any discrimination. *So ābaddha karuṇā*-sindhu , it was just like a big ocean blocked all sides. Ocean of love of Godhead is a big ocean, but it was not inundated. So Nityānanda Prabhu cut a canal from the ocean, and He brought the canal in every door. Ghare ghare bule prema-amiyāra bān . The flood of the nectar of love of Godhead was thus distributed in each and every home in Bengal. Actually still Bengal is overwhelmed when there is talk of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Prabhu. Locan bole , now the author is speaking on his behalf that anyone who does not take the advantage given by Lord Nityānanda Prabhu, so in his opinion he thinks that such a person knowingly is committing suicide. (end) Nitai Guna Mani Amara and Purport -- September 24, 1972, Los Angeles (harmonium) Prabhupāda: So you are beginning from here? Devotee: Yes Prabhupāda: Play like this. ( taṁburā tuning) . . . (indistinct) You cannot play. There. Play it nicely. (chants 3 times) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (break) Try to play mṛdaṅga . Karāndhara: Yes. Karatālas are in the room? Prabhupāda: Yes. ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) (tapping sound) One two three. Devotee: One? Prabhupāda: One two three. Yes. So. Permanent, you follow? ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ). One two three, then one two, one two and three. ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) That's not good . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Simply one two . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) Yes. (break) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) (break) ( mṛdaṅga plays, then karatālas ) Well that's all right. Devotee: I just don’t get it. Devotees: (laughter) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . from inside they bring . . . (indistinct) . . . a small child and he cannot restrain? A small . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nature's way. Take care of the child immediately. When boys are spoiled? Simply by bad association, that's all. The world is so much polluted any innocent child can be polluted. That is going on everywhere all over the world. The whole world is polluted even the best child is polluted. When? As soon as he goes to school and meets his friends, finished. The schools, colleges are slaughterhouses. (break) (purport) *Nitāi guṇa*-maṇi āmār nitāi guṇa-maṇi —this is a song sung by Locana Dāsa Ṭhākura, almost a contemporary of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has got many books on the life and precepts of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he is saying that Lord Nityānanda is full of good qualities, guṇa-maṇi . *Guṇa*-maṇi means the jewel of all qualities. So nitāi guṇa-maṇi āmār nitāi guṇa-maṇi . He is repeatedly uttering that Lord Nityānanda is the reservoir of all good qualities. Āniyā premera vanyā bhāsāilo avanī . And on account of His spiritual qualities, he inundated the whole world by the flood of love of God. It is by His kindness people can feel what is love of God. Premer vanyā loiyā nitāi āilā gauḍa-deśe . When Caitanya Mahāprabhu left home and took sannyas , He made His headquarter at Jagannātha Purī. So after His accepting the sannyas order, when He left His home and country Lord Nityānanda Prabhu also accompanied Him up to Jagannātha Purī. *So after a few days, Lord Caitanya requested Him that, "If both of us remain here, then who will preach in Bengal?" Bengal is known as gauḍa*-deśe. So under the order of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He brought from Him the flood of love of Godhead and He distributed in the whole of Bengal, gauḍa-deśe . And in that flood of love of God, all devotees became drowned. Only those who were not devotees, they could not drown but they were floating, dīna hīna bāche . But so far Nityānanda Prabhu is concerned, He does not make any discrimination between devotees and nondevotees. Dīna hīna patita pāmara nāhi bāche. Poor or rich or enlightened or foolish, everyone could take the instruction of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and become drowned in the ocean of love of Godhead. Such love of Godhead is brahmār durlabha . Even Lord Brahmā, who is the supreme teacher within this universe, he also cannot relish. But by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Mahāprabhu, this love of Godhead was distributed to everyone without any discrimination. *So ābaddha karuṇā*-sindhu , it was just like a big ocean blocked all sides. Ocean of love of Godhead is a big ocean, but it was not inundated. So Nityānanda Prabhu cut a canal from the ocean, and He brought the canal in every door. Ghare ghare bule prema-amiyāra bān . The flood of the nectar of love of Godhead was thus distributed in each and every home in Bengal. Actually still Bengal is overwhelmed when there is talk of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Prabhu. Locan bole , now the author is speaking on his behalf that anyone who does not take the advantage given by Lord Nityānanda Prabhu, so in his opinion he thinks that such a person knowingly is committing suicide. (end) Jaya Radhe Jaya Krsna -- September 25, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: I can sit here . . . book? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes, you can hold the book so that you don’t have to turn . . . (break) (harmonium) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . apartment . . . (indistinct) (harmonium) Prabhupāda: Bring those small books. (break) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So I hope you have got another. (harmonium) Sing? Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (plays mṛdaṅga then karatālas ) (plays mṛdaṅga ) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: . . . (indistinct) (plays mṛdaṅga then karatālas ) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . I didn’t get the time . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I didn’t start the watch in time either time. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Jaya Radhe Jaya Krsna -- September 25, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: I can sit here . . . book? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes, you can hold the book so that you don’t have to turn . . . (break) (harmonium) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . apartment . . . (indistinct) (harmonium) Prabhupāda: Bring those small books. (break) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So I hope you have got another. (harmonium) Sing? Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (plays mṛdaṅga then karatālas ) (plays mṛdaṅga ) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: . . . (indistinct) (plays mṛdaṅga then karatālas ) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . I didn’t get the time . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I didn’t start the watch in time either time. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Anadi Karama Phale and Purport -- September 26, 1972, Los Angeles *(Because of my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen into an ocean of nescience. I cannot find any means to get out of this great ocean, which is indeed like an ocean of poison. We are trying to be happy through sense enjoyment, but actually that so*-called enjoyment is like food that is too hot and causes burning in the heart. I feel a burning sensation constantly, day and night, and thus my mind cannot find satisfaction.) Prabhupāda: You don’t go with me. You simply in one meter, ting ting ting ting . When I go fast you may not go fast. Devotee: So just . . . shall I not hit four string lightly . . . a longer like that? Prabhupāda: Yes that's all. There this meter . . . (indistinct) . . . any condition this meter is nice . . . yes. (indistinct conversation) ( mṛdaṅga ) (break) (harmonium) Prabhupāda: If this air is not let out then the handle will go back. But they do not know it. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Stalls it? Prabhupāda: Immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . without pressing the button. Therefore we spoil the harmonium, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Does it wreck the reeds? Or does it . . . cause the (break) Prabhupāda: Due to the manufacturing process. Structure. ( mṛdaṅga ) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) ( karatālas ) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas ) Prabhupāda: So I need to explain. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Think you want to do it here? Prabhupāda: No I can do it. Purport to Anādi Karama Phale from Gītāvalī by Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura - Gold Series CD 7 Track 4: *Anādi karama*-phale. Anādi karama-phale pori' bhavārṇava-jale taribāre nā dekhi upāya . This is a song sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, depicting the picture of the conditioned soul. It is said here, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is speaking, taking himself as one of the ordinary human being, that due to my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen in this ocean of nescience, and I do not find any means of coming out of this great ocean. It is just like the ocean of poison, e viṣaya-halāhale , divā-niśi hiyā jvale. *As, if anyone takes some pungent food, it burns the heart, similarly, as we are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, actually, it is just becoming the opposite, a cause of burning our heart. E viṣaya*-halāhale , divā-niśi hiyā jvale , that burning sensation is going on twenty-four hours, day and night. Mana kabhu sukha nāhi pāya , and on account of this my mind is not at all in satisfaction. *Āśā*-pāśa-śata-śata kleśa dey abirata , I am always making plan, hundreds and thousands, how I shall become happy, but actually all of them giving me trouble, pains, twenty-four hours. Pravṛtti-ūrmira tāhe khelā , it is exactly like the waves of the ocean, always dashing one another that is my position. *Kāma*-krodha-ādi caya , bāṭapāre dey bhaya , besides that, there are so many thieves and rogues. Especially they are six in number, namely lust, anger, envy, illusion, and so many ways, they are always present, and I am afraid of them. Abasāna hoilo āsi' belā , in this way, my life is becoming advanced, or I am coming to the point of end. *Jñāna*-karma ṭhaga dui , more pratāriyā loi , although this is my position, still, two kinds of activities, namely mental speculation and fruitive activities, they are cheating me. Jñāna-karma ṭhaga , ṭhaga means cheater. There are jñāna-karma ṭhaga dui , more pratāriyā loi , they are misleading me, and abaśeṣe fele sindhu-jale , after misleading me, they bring me on the seashore and pushes me down within the sea. *E heno samaye bandhu tumi kṛṣṇa kṛpā*-sindhu , under the circumstance, my dear Kṛṣṇa, you are the only friend, tumi kṛṣṇa kṛpā-sindhu. Kṛpā kori' tolo more bale , now I have no strength to get out of this ocean of nescience, so I request, I pray unto Your lotus feet, that by Your strength, You kindly pick me up. Patita-kiṅkare dhari' pāda-padma-dhūli kori' , after all, I am your eternal servant. So, somehow or other, I am fallen in this ocean, you kindly pick me up, and fix me as one of the dust of Your lotus feet. *Deho bhaktivinoda āśraya , Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura entreats, that "Kindly give me shelter on Your lotus feet." Āmi tava nitya*-dāsa , actually I am Your eternal servant. Bhuliyā māyāra pāś , somehow or other I forgot You, and I am now fallen in the network of māyā . Baddha ho'ye āchi doyāmoy , my dear Lord, I have been entangled in this way. Kindly save me. (end CD version): *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Five minutes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Anadi Karama Phale and Purport -- September 26, 1972, Los Angeles *(Because of my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen into an ocean of nescience. I cannot find any means to get out of this great ocean, which is indeed like an ocean of poison. We are trying to be happy through sense enjoyment, but actually that so*-called enjoyment is like food that is too hot and causes burning in the heart. I feel a burning sensation constantly, day and night, and thus my mind cannot find satisfaction.) Prabhupāda: You don’t go with me. You simply in one meter, ting ting ting ting . When I go fast you may not go fast. Devotee: So just . . . shall I not hit four string lightly . . . a longer like that? Prabhupāda: Yes that's all. There this meter . . . (indistinct) . . . any condition this meter is nice . . . yes. (indistinct conversation) ( mṛdaṅga ) (break) (harmonium) Prabhupāda: If this air is not let out then the handle will go back. But they do not know it. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Stalls it? Prabhupāda: Immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . without pressing the button. Therefore we spoil the harmonium, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Does it wreck the reeds? Or does it . . . cause the (break) Prabhupāda: Due to the manufacturing process. Structure. ( mṛdaṅga ) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) ( karatālas ) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas ) Prabhupāda: So I need to explain. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Think you want to do it here? Prabhupāda: No I can do it. Purport to Anādi Karama Phale from Gītāvalī by Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura - Gold Series CD 7 Track 4: *Anādi karama*-phale. Anādi karama-phale pori' bhavārṇava-jale taribāre nā dekhi upāya . This is a song sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, depicting the picture of the conditioned soul. It is said here, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is speaking, taking himself as one of the ordinary human being, that due to my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen in this ocean of nescience, and I do not find any means of coming out of this great ocean. It is just like the ocean of poison, e viṣaya-halāhale , divā-niśi hiyā jvale. *As, if anyone takes some pungent food, it burns the heart, similarly, as we are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, actually, it is just becoming the opposite, a cause of burning our heart. E viṣaya*-halāhale , divā-niśi hiyā jvale , that burning sensation is going on twenty-four hours, day and night. Mana kabhu sukha nāhi pāya , and on account of this my mind is not at all in satisfaction. *Āśā*-pāśa-śata-śata kleśa dey abirata , I am always making plan, hundreds and thousands, how I shall become happy, but actually all of them giving me trouble, pains, twenty-four hours. Pravṛtti-ūrmira tāhe khelā , it is exactly like the waves of the ocean, always dashing one another that is my position. *Kāma*-krodha-ādi caya , bāṭapāre dey bhaya , besides that, there are so many thieves and rogues. Especially they are six in number, namely lust, anger, envy, illusion, and so many ways, they are always present, and I am afraid of them. Abasāna hoilo āsi' belā , in this way, my life is becoming advanced, or I am coming to the point of end. *Jñāna*-karma ṭhaga dui , more pratāriyā loi , although this is my position, still, two kinds of activities, namely mental speculation and fruitive activities, they are cheating me. Jñāna-karma ṭhaga , ṭhaga means cheater. There are jñāna-karma ṭhaga dui , more pratāriyā loi , they are misleading me, and abaśeṣe fele sindhu-jale , after misleading me, they bring me on the seashore and pushes me down within the sea. *E heno samaye bandhu tumi kṛṣṇa kṛpā*-sindhu , under the circumstance, my dear Kṛṣṇa, you are the only friend, tumi kṛṣṇa kṛpā-sindhu. Kṛpā kori' tolo more bale , now I have no strength to get out of this ocean of nescience, so I request, I pray unto Your lotus feet, that by Your strength, You kindly pick me up. Patita-kiṅkare dhari' pāda-padma-dhūli kori' , after all, I am your eternal servant. So, somehow or other, I am fallen in this ocean, you kindly pick me up, and fix me as one of the dust of Your lotus feet. *Deho bhaktivinoda āśraya , Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura entreats, that "Kindly give me shelter on Your lotus feet." Āmi tava nitya*-dāsa , actually I am Your eternal servant. Bhuliyā māyāra pāś , somehow or other I forgot You, and I am now fallen in the network of māyā . Baddha ho'ye āchi doyāmoy , my dear Lord, I have been entangled in this way. Kindly save me. (end CD version): *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Five minutes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) *Suddha*-bhakata-carana-renu and Purport -- September 27, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda: How many minutes? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Ah. 14 minutes 45 seconds. I started the watch right when we began playing about a minute before you actually began singing. (break) (harmonium) ( mṛdaṅga tunes up) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) Prabhupāda: Sing only harmonium. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: You don’t hear anything else? Prabhupāda: No. ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) *Prabhupāda: Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu bhajana-anukūla . . . *Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu , bhajana-anukūla. This is a song, sung by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura in pursuance of Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Prahlāda Mahārāja has recommended, eh. Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim ( SB 7.5.32) "One cannot have pure devotional attachment to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord." Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim , spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ , "By touching the lotus feet of a pure devotee means immediately all misconceptions of life becomes eradicated." *Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim , spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad*-arthaḥ , mahīyasāṁ pāda-rajo-'bhiṣekaṁ. Mahīyasām , "Those who are great souls, great devotees who accept the dust of their lotus feet." Niṣkiñcanānāṁ na vṛṇīta yāvat , "Unless one comes to that point it is very different to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Actually it is not possible, one cannot make any advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness unless he accepts the dust of the lotus feet of the pure devotees. So Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura says that "The dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotees is very favourable for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." *Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu , bhajana-anukūla , "It is very favourable." Bhakata-sevā parama-siddhi prema-latikāra mūla , "the love of Godhead is always compared with a creeper as the creeper in the garden takes the shelter of another big tree." Similarly when we approach a pure devotee and engage ourselves in the service of that pure devotee that is our shelter exactly like the creeper takes shelter of a big tree. *Prema*-latikāra , prema-latikāra , "The creeper of love stands in that position." Mādhava-tithi "And after that following the instructions of the pure devotee," means mādhava-tithi. Just like Ekādaśī. Ekādaśī is called mādhava-tithi or Janmāṣṭamī any festival in connection with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called mādhava-tithi. *Mādhava*-tithi bhakti-jananī , "If we observe the performance of mādhava-tithi then that becomes the mother of our devotional service." Bhakti-jananī jetane pālana kori , "One has to observe this mādhava-tithi very carefully." *Kṛṣṇa*-basati basati boli' parama ādare bori , "And kṛṣṇa-basati , or Kṛṣṇa's place just like Vṛndāvana, Mathurā, Dvārakā they are famous as being Kṛṣṇa's favourites, so to live in such holy place one should be very much hankering after, kṛṣṇa-basati ." *Gaur āmāra je*-saba sthāne koralo bhramaṇa raṅge , "Similarly Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu has travelled many places in India, ye-saba sthāne . So one should be very much eager to see those places." Gaur āmāra , je-saba sthāne koralo bhramaṇa raṅge , "Wherever he has travelled." *Se*-saba sthāna , heribo āmi praṇayi-bhakata-saṅge , "I want to see those places which in company with a pure devotee." If ordinarily anyone goes to such places he will see only the street and the trees and the cars and the, but the same place when it is visited along with a devotee it has got a different effect. *Mṛdaṅga*-bādya śunite mana abasara sadā jāce , "I wish to hear the sound vibration of mṛdaṅga , kohl , it is very pleasing to me." *Gaura*-bihita kīrtana śuni'ānande hṛdoya nāce , "And when I hear some song which is approved by the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahāprabhu then my heart dances with that song." *Jugala*-mūrti dekhiyā mora parama-ānanda hoya , the deities there, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, when I see. I feel transcendental pleasure. *Prasāda*-sebā korite hoya sakala prapañca jaya , "And when I take, respect the prasādam offered to Kṛṣṇa then I think that I am becoming liberated," actually it is so. The more we eat ordinary foodstuff we become entangled. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ (BG 3.13). "One who eats prasādam he becomes free from all contamination of life." Whereas one who cooks for himself, generally people do so, generally the mass of people they purchase things, so many uneatable things, meats, fish eggs along with vegetables also. But they eat only sins, sinful life there but if you eat prasādam you become free from sin and if you do not eat prasādam you cook ordinary things for your eating then you become entangled instead. *Je*-dina gṛhe bhajana dekhi gṛhete goloka bhāya , "Whenever I see at home there is worship of the Lord I think the, my household life is as good as Vaikuṇṭha." *Caraṇa*-sīdhu dekhiyā gaṅgāsukha nā sīmā pāya , "And whenever I see the Ganges," because the Ganges is emanating from the toe's of Lord Viṣṇu "therefore I become highly pleased, ecstatic by seeing the Ganges River." *Tulasī dekhi' jurāya prāṇa , "And similarly whenever I see the Tulasī plant." Mādhava*-toṣaṇī jāni' , "Because I know that by offering Tulasī—Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased therefore as soon as I see a Tulasī plant I become very much ecstatic." *Gaura*-priya śāka-sevane jīvana sārthaka māni , "Similarly when I eat śāka ," green vegetable which is very dear to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "I feel that my life is now successful." *Bhakativinoda kṛṣṇa*-bhajane anakūla pāya jāhā , Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura, Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura says that, "Whatever I feel favourable in the matter of executing my devotional service unto the Supreme Lord every day." *Prati*-dibase parama-sukhe swīkāra koroye tāhā , "I accept all of them every day with great pleasure." *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Nine, nine minutes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. 14 and 9. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Almost 15. Yes. Prabhupāda: Almost 24. (break) (end) *Suddha*-bhakata-carana-renu and Purport -- September 27, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda: How many minutes? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Ah. 14 minutes 45 seconds. I started the watch right when we began playing about a minute before you actually began singing. (break) (harmonium) ( mṛdaṅga tunes up) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) Prabhupāda: Sing only harmonium. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: You don’t hear anything else? Prabhupāda: No. ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) *Prabhupāda: Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu bhajana-anukūla . . . *Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu , bhajana-anukūla. This is a song, sung by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura in pursuance of Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Prahlāda Mahārāja has recommended, eh. Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim ( SB 7.5.32) "One cannot have pure devotional attachment to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord." Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim , spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ , "By touching the lotus feet of a pure devotee means immediately all misconceptions of life becomes eradicated." *Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim , spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad*-arthaḥ , mahīyasāṁ pāda-rajo-'bhiṣekaṁ. Mahīyasām , "Those who are great souls, great devotees who accept the dust of their lotus feet." Niṣkiñcanānāṁ na vṛṇīta yāvat , "Unless one comes to that point it is very different to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Actually it is not possible, one cannot make any advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness unless he accepts the dust of the lotus feet of the pure devotees. So Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura says that "The dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotees is very favourable for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." *Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu , bhajana-anukūla , "It is very favourable." Bhakata-sevā parama-siddhi prema-latikāra mūla , "the love of Godhead is always compared with a creeper as the creeper in the garden takes the shelter of another big tree." Similarly when we approach a pure devotee and engage ourselves in the service of that pure devotee that is our shelter exactly like the creeper takes shelter of a big tree. *Prema*-latikāra , prema-latikāra , "The creeper of love stands in that position." Mādhava-tithi "And after that following the instructions of the pure devotee," means mādhava-tithi. Just like Ekādaśī. Ekādaśī is called mādhava-tithi or Janmāṣṭamī any festival in connection with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called mādhava-tithi. *Mādhava*-tithi bhakti-jananī , "If we observe the performance of mādhava-tithi then that becomes the mother of our devotional service." Bhakti-jananī jetane pālana kori , "One has to observe this mādhava-tithi very carefully." *Kṛṣṇa*-basati basati boli' parama ādare bori , "And kṛṣṇa-basati , or Kṛṣṇa's place just like Vṛndāvana, Mathurā, Dvārakā they are famous as being Kṛṣṇa's favourites, so to live in such holy place one should be very much hankering after, kṛṣṇa-basati ." *Gaur āmāra je*-saba sthāne koralo bhramaṇa raṅge , "Similarly Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu has travelled many places in India, ye-saba sthāne . So one should be very much eager to see those places." Gaur āmāra , je-saba sthāne koralo bhramaṇa raṅge , "Wherever he has travelled." *Se*-saba sthāna , heribo āmi praṇayi-bhakata-saṅge , "I want to see those places which in company with a pure devotee." If ordinarily anyone goes to such places he will see only the street and the trees and the cars and the, but the same place when it is visited along with a devotee it has got a different effect. *Mṛdaṅga*-bādya śunite mana abasara sadā jāce , "I wish to hear the sound vibration of mṛdaṅga , kohl , it is very pleasing to me." *Gaura*-bihita kīrtana śuni'ānande hṛdoya nāce , "And when I hear some song which is approved by the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahāprabhu then my heart dances with that song." *Jugala*-mūrti dekhiyā mora parama-ānanda hoya , the deities there, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, when I see. I feel transcendental pleasure. *Prasāda*-sebā korite hoya sakala prapañca jaya , "And when I take, respect the prasādam offered to Kṛṣṇa then I think that I am becoming liberated," actually it is so. The more we eat ordinary foodstuff we become entangled. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ (BG 3.13). "One who eats prasādam he becomes free from all contamination of life." Whereas one who cooks for himself, generally people do so, generally the mass of people they purchase things, so many uneatable things, meats, fish eggs along with vegetables also. But they eat only sins, sinful life there but if you eat prasādam you become free from sin and if you do not eat prasādam you cook ordinary things for your eating then you become entangled instead. *Je*-dina gṛhe bhajana dekhi gṛhete goloka bhāya , "Whenever I see at home there is worship of the Lord I think the, my household life is as good as Vaikuṇṭha." *Caraṇa*-sīdhu dekhiyā gaṅgāsukha nā sīmā pāya , "And whenever I see the Ganges," because the Ganges is emanating from the toe's of Lord Viṣṇu "therefore I become highly pleased, ecstatic by seeing the Ganges River." *Tulasī dekhi' jurāya prāṇa , "And similarly whenever I see the Tulasī plant." Mādhava*-toṣaṇī jāni' , "Because I know that by offering Tulasī—Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased therefore as soon as I see a Tulasī plant I become very much ecstatic." *Gaura*-priya śāka-sevane jīvana sārthaka māni , "Similarly when I eat śāka ," green vegetable which is very dear to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "I feel that my life is now successful." *Bhakativinoda kṛṣṇa*-bhajane anakūla pāya jāhā , Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura, Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura says that, "Whatever I feel favourable in the matter of executing my devotional service unto the Supreme Lord every day." *Prati*-dibase parama-sukhe swīkāra koroye tāhā , "I accept all of them every day with great pleasure." *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Nine, nine minutes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. 14 and 9. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Almost 15. Yes. Prabhupāda: Almost 24. (break) (end) Conversation -- September 29, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Ajke ar hobe na. (Not today.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Eh? Prabhupāda: Ajke ar hocche na. (Not happening today.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh! ajke hobe na! oh accha. (Oh? Not happening today? Oh well.) Prabhupāda: Oh simply warning? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just warning. Prabhupāda: Ah acha . Hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak, hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak , hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak . (door opens) Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda something about the tickets. We have those around the world tickets, we have round the world tickets and those tickets have a certain amount of. Have an itinerary. The itinerary is that we go from . . . Prabhupāda: That you understand, I cannot remember. Pradyumna: Well eh, there's just one thing, that Karāndhara wanted me to ask about. That the tickets are going to be ah, $1900 apiece. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: And Karāndhara just wanted you to know that the money is coming out of the book fund. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask Karāndhara to see me. Yes . . . that is the . . . called tactics. If the teachers are rascals themselves then there won't be any fight. There should be . . . (indistinct) . . . you know the tigers in the circus? Karāndhara: Yes. They pull out the whip but they never hit the tiger. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karāndhara: They never hit the tiger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karāndhara: They just crack the whip. Prabhupāda: The tiger is so afraid simply by seeing that—he shuddered. Summarily it is not used. Simply in the hand. That is tactic. So if a tiger can be trained in that way, an animal, a ferocious animal and they cannot train the children? It needs a good teacher Children will cry they will fight but you have to create. Teachers . . . (indistinct) . . . TAK! TAK! TAK! Immediately they stop. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: I have seen it . . . in our childhood I remember two teachers, we were so afraid we would going 50 miles away to avoid. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: It is . . . (indistinct) . . . even though . . . (indistinct) . . . "What is Bhagavān doing he has had so many accidents." It was going in the . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately transferred. He created such an atmosphere simply by seeing, all the children cried. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even in the . . . (indistinct) . . . we have some afraid—some type of fearness with the professors also . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't have any. Prabhupāda: Well that is required or deviance is the first form . . . (pause) So you have . . . recording department has not paid me. Karāndhara: Not paid? Prabhupāda: Not paid and so what is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I mean about the credit? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes its royalties. We pay from the records that sold. Prabhupāda: And when it will be sold? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Well the first record will be ready in about a week. Karāndhara: They are bringing it . . . (indistinct) . . . did they get more work done on it? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There was, there was a contract between a teacher and his students, law students. So the students says: "Sir I have no money I shall pay you when I practical." . . . (indistinct) . . . so he says: "all right." So after learning the law, so he was not going to the court . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) So this proposal is like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Making recording, there is no sales . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no sales, so when there is sales I'll pay . . . (indistinct) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: It is common standard practice in the recording . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: So when the sale is made the artist. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Artist don't usually get paid . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Artist do not get paid? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: No. Karāndhara: Sometimes they get advancement but goes against our future development . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes. So you can practice it. Then the teacher did one practise he found a suitable criminal. Karāndhara: He . . . (indistinct) . . . in the court. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karāndhara: He . . . (indistinct) . . . in the court. Prabhupāda: Yes. So. Karāndhara: No respect for him. *Prabhupāda: He wanted defence so then he said finally, "My Lord either you let him pay you know now he is practising." This is called tit*-for-tat. Karāndhara: Tit for tat? *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . tit*-for-tat. The student was also clever but the teacher was also more clever. All right. (Devotee's leave offering their obeisances) Prabhupāda: Turn it off? Devotee: No it's . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation -- September 29, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Ajke ar hobe na. (Not today.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Eh? Prabhupāda: Ajke ar hocche na. (Not happening today.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh! ajke hobe na! oh accha. (Oh? Not happening today? Oh well.) Prabhupāda: Oh simply warning? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just warning. Prabhupāda: Ah acha . Hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak, hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak , hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak . (door opens) Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda something about the tickets. We have those around the world tickets, we have round the world tickets and those tickets have a certain amount of. Have an itinerary. The itinerary is that we go from . . . Prabhupāda: That you understand, I cannot remember. Pradyumna: Well eh, there's just one thing, that Karāndhara wanted me to ask about. That the tickets are going to be ah, $1900 apiece. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: And Karāndhara just wanted you to know that the money is coming out of the book fund. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask Karāndhara to see me. Yes . . . that is the . . . called tactics. If the teachers are rascals themselves then there won't be any fight. There should be . . . (indistinct) . . . you know the tigers in the circus? Karāndhara: Yes. They pull out the whip but they never hit the tiger. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karāndhara: They never hit the tiger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karāndhara: They just crack the whip. Prabhupāda: The tiger is so afraid simply by seeing that—he shuddered. Summarily it is not used. Simply in the hand. That is tactic. So if a tiger can be trained in that way, an animal, a ferocious animal and they cannot train the children? It needs a good teacher Children will cry they will fight but you have to create. Teachers . . . (indistinct) . . . TAK! TAK! TAK! Immediately they stop. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: I have seen it . . . in our childhood I remember two teachers, we were so afraid we would going 50 miles away to avoid. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: It is . . . (indistinct) . . . even though . . . (indistinct) . . . "What is Bhagavān doing he has had so many accidents." It was going in the . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately transferred. He created such an atmosphere simply by seeing, all the children cried. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even in the . . . (indistinct) . . . we have some afraid—some type of fearness with the professors also . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't have any. Prabhupāda: Well that is required or deviance is the first form . . . (pause) So you have . . . recording department has not paid me. Karāndhara: Not paid? Prabhupāda: Not paid and so what is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I mean about the credit? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes its royalties. We pay from the records that sold. Prabhupāda: And when it will be sold? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Well the first record will be ready in about a week. Karāndhara: They are bringing it . . . (indistinct) . . . did they get more work done on it? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There was, there was a contract between a teacher and his students, law students. So the students says: "Sir I have no money I shall pay you when I practical." . . . (indistinct) . . . so he says: "all right." So after learning the law, so he was not going to the court . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) So this proposal is like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Making recording, there is no sales . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no sales, so when there is sales I'll pay . . . (indistinct) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: It is common standard practice in the recording . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: So when the sale is made the artist. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Artist don't usually get paid . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Artist do not get paid? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: No. Karāndhara: Sometimes they get advancement but goes against our future development . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes. So you can practice it. Then the teacher did one practise he found a suitable criminal. Karāndhara: He . . . (indistinct) . . . in the court. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karāndhara: He . . . (indistinct) . . . in the court. Prabhupāda: Yes. So. Karāndhara: No respect for him. *Prabhupāda: He wanted defence so then he said finally, "My Lord either you let him pay you know now he is practising." This is called tit*-for-tat. Karāndhara: Tit for tat? *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . tit*-for-tat. The student was also clever but the teacher was also more clever. All right. (Devotee's leave offering their obeisances) Prabhupāda: Turn it off? Devotee: No it's . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Morning Walks -- October 1-3, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Easygoing, that is actual real life. But that easygoing, you must come to that stage. If you come to a healthy stage, then when you eat you can digest nicely. But unhealthy stage, if you eat, how you will digest? Therefore, you have to cure your disease first of all. Then you eat, it will be digested. So in the material condition, nothing can be (indistinct). Therefore, how it is called conditioned life? Jayatīrtha: We're bound up by so many conditions. Prabhupāda: Ah, the conditions. So first of all you come out of the conditioned life. Just like we are trying to go to other planets with so many machines, so many mechanical arrangements. But if you have got spiritual body, you can go anywhere. Anywhere you can go. As Nārada Muni is going, traveling, any planet he likes he is going. That freedom is there, but that is in spiritual body. So you come to the spiritual body first, then you get all freedom. Whatever you like, you can do. Whatever you desire, you can get. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda gives the example like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it might look like poison at the beginning, but at the end it will be nectar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And so they..., they're reversing that, these people who... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. What is appearing as poison in the beginning, that will prove nectar at the end. [break] Even ordinary dealings. Just like I have given one watch to Śyāmasundara, that Omega. So I paid him... One hundred dollars has been spent to make it correct time, but it is not. Everyone, "Yes, I will make it repaired." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just repairing? Prabhupāda: Repairing, four, five dollars, six dollars, and it is the same. And it is going on for the last one year. Jayatīrtha: Like automobiles, automobiles are built to break down in four or five years at the most so that you'll have to go and buy a new one. That's the way they build them. They could make them stronger, stronger parts, stronger engines, but they don't, so that in four or five years they'll break down and you'll have to come back and buy a new one. *Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Even in ordinary dealings, people will cheat you. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. (Sanskrit) Everyone is cheating. Even in ordinary talking, they will tell so many lies. [break] They live nicely in fresh air, in open air, trees, and talking about their business and they are happy. They have no problems for eating, sleeping, mating, nothing. Everything is there. And we are claiming civilized. We are dealing with science to improve conditions, the rascals they are becoming more and more degraded. They have no science, they have no laboratory, they have no university. How they are living peacefully? So it is... If this life is better or this life of cheating and imperfectness, full of anxieties, this life is better. Which life is better? Jayatīrtha: The animals, they are living by the arrangement of nature, they live according to their nature. Whereas the human beings... Prabhupāda: They have no anxiety. Jayatīrtha: ...perform prohibited activities and requirements and are living actually against their own nature. So the animal's life in that sense is better. At least they're not performing any sinful activities. Prabhupāda: That I explained last time, that they are simply misusing their advancement, and they are satisfied when they have got a motorcar instead of bullock cart. That's all. They think, "Now I am advanced. We had bullock cart, now we have got motorcar with three hundred thousand parts. And every part will give me trouble as soon as it is (indistinct)," (chuckles) and that is advancement. As soon as one part is broken, the bullock cart is called for. They get a bullock cart to carry this motorcar. [break] Everyone is servant. Therefore, we teach our students to address "prabhu." "I am your servant, you are my master, prabhu." That is the meaning of prabhu. Prabhu means master. And Prabhupāda means supreme master. That is the meaning. Jayatīrtha: In this country there's a saying that everyone should be their own master. That's the philosophy. It's called individualism. Prabhupāda: Own master... He does not know how to become own master. That he does not know. He speaks only. Now, what is their explanation to become own master? How they explain? Explain. Jayatīrtha: The idea is that they want to be... to determine their own destiny. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayatīrtha: They want to determine their own destiny. They think if they work very hard, they'll be able to build up their environment... (noise of plane taking off). Prabhupāda: This is not explanation. Own master means master of the senses. Jayatīrtha: That they don't know. Prabhupāda: Actually, everyone is servant of the senses at the present moment. So one has to become the master of the senses. That is called svāmī. Svāmī means master. Gosvāmī means master of the senses, the same thing. So everyone is servant of the senses. Everyone is acting being dictated by the senses. "Oh, it is very nice. Let me see." The eyes dictate what we see. What is time now? Jayatīrtha: Five after seven. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: Five minutes after seven. [break] (In car:) *Devotee (1): We were given a ride by some young people, a couple, and they were..., this was in Bakersfield, California. They said that a mahārāja of Guru Maharaj*-ji, a mahātmā, they called him a mahātmā, a disciple follower of this fourteen-year-old so-called avatāra, is in Bakersfield, and he's staying there. Prabhupāda: Where he is now? *Devotee (1): He's supposed to still be in Bakersfield after Guru Maharaj*-ji, but this mahātmā is his follower. But they were very anxious to follow in his way because Guru Maharaj-ji is supposed to give direct perception of God. It's described that he will show you light. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Yes. They said when you meet him, he can show you light. He's giving direct understanding of God in this way, this light. When I tried to ask them to understand some Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they simply refused to listen. They had no desire to hear about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They said, "What your spiritual master has to offer? What can you offer except just some scriptures?" They had no respect for the śāstra. So many young people are following this. Jayatīrtha: Everyone wants instant realization. Prabhupāda: Outlaws will say like that. "What education you have got? You have simply studied some lawbook." Outlaws will say like that. They will simply sell some book, "Now we are better that you. Without studying we have written." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they are called demons. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are called demons because... [break] Prabhupāda: (indistinct) here? Jayatīrtha: Yes, they're in Hollywood. I've never seen it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: They have a place in Hollywood. I've never seen it, but I know people who have gone there. They become like a fad, like Maharishi. Two years ago he was very big, thousands of people were coming. Prabhupāda: Who? *Jayatīrtha: This Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He was very big. He was in the newspapers and thousands of people came and paid thirty*-five dollars, took initiation. But now you don't hear anything about him. So this man will come, make a big show, make some money, but in two years he'll just be a memory. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Why does he not come again? He has gone forever. Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have said that whenever there is Kṛṣṇa there will be success everywhere, all the time. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: When there is Kṛṣṇa, there will be success everywhere. Prabhupāda: That is the real success. (indistinct) There are so many places I see the sign for. Jayatīrtha: Yes, they are one of the biggest corporations in the United States. Prabhupāda: Accha? Jayatīrtha: They're one of the biggest corporations in the United States. They have a..., at least one or two thousand of those, I think more than two thousand. Devotee (1): They're all across the country. Kentucky Fried Chicken. Colonel Sanders. Prabhupāda: Many thousands of chickens are being killed. Jayatīrtha: Oh, millions of chickens. Devotee (1): Millions every day. *Jayatīrtha: Just like this MacDonald's hamburger stands, they have a sign in front of their hamburger stands-they have also several thousand hamburger stands*-the sign says, "Over ten billion hamburgers served." Their company has served ten billion hamburgers. [break] (Outside walking:) Prabhupāda: America? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. He told me he was very pleased to see Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he said he will start chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. He said he will go to Laguna Beach temple and he said he will try out chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayatīrtha: He told me that he could see that this knowledge wasn't theoretical, that it was realized knowledge. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: He told me that. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jayatīrtha: That the knowledge that you have isn't theoretical but it's realized. He was very much impressed by that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He liked the prasādam so much that I made another plate and he finished that. Then after that he took the..., he finished the... What is that preparation from eggplant? Devotee (2): The vegetable, he really liked that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he finished all plate, he liked so much. He said, "What is this?" Prabhupāda: Gradually try to convince him and let him read our books. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are in the same floor. He works on the physics side, I am in chemistry side, but we are in the same floor, fourth floor of the building. No, he is on the third floor. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that prove the existence of Kṛṣṇa by the science of physics, your knowledge. So he asked me, how am I going to prove the existence of Kṛṣṇa by chemistry? Prabhupāda: That requires your knowledge. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he agreed the existence of supreme brain. We were talking about the talk between Einstein, Heisenberg, and some of the famous so*-called physicists in nuclear field. So there was a conversation between Einstein and this Heisenberg, and Paul Durad(?), and (?), these are mostly (?) scientists, they are mostly Nobel Laureates. They were discussing, and without Einstein, these people they were talking, "Why Einstein is all the time talking about God?" Then this Heisenberg, he was not like Einstein. Einstein himself, he believed that there is a brain behind, supreme brain of God. And some of them, specifically this one, young Durad(?), he is also a scientist, he was very young, he was only twenty-five years old. So he said, "Einstein is all the time talking about God." This Durad(?) is completely opposite to this Einstein. So they were discussing about why Einstein is thinking about God all the time. And so... But ultimately they said, most of them agreed that there is a supreme being who is making all these physical laws, natural laws. It's already in the universe, but they are trying to discover it. So most of them agree except this Durad(?). So in the same line, (?) told me that yes, we agree that all the physical laws is already there. If somebody doesn't make it, then how can it exist? So he said he is thinking also in that line that there is someone, some brain, some supreme brain who is making all these physical laws. Otherwise there cannot be physical laws if there is not someone. He was saying that he started thinking in that line too. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) He makes everything, but He is not attached. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...how do you know that guru is qualified, spiritual master is qualified? Then I said everything is written in the śāstras, so we have to follow according to the injunctions written in the śāstras. So all the qualifications of a pure devotee, of a bona fide guru, is written there. Just like you are a professor of physics in the university. Before you came, you had some qualification, degree of doctors. And then there is a committee to decide you whether you are qualified for the post. So it is selected by a committee of members and then they interview and then they find out your qualifications. If they find that you are qualified for the post, so you are selected as a professor. It's like that in the spiritual field also. There are revealed scriptures and there everything is written what will be the qualification of a guru and then how to choose a bona fide one. So everything is written, you should follow the injunctions of the revealed scriptures accordingly. Prabhupāda: Committee is his spiritual master, he orders that you do this. Jayatīrtha: The test is to see how much one is actually following the orders of his spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: Listening to another so*-called guru, everywhere we go, especially in Los Angeles, they always talk of other gurus. They always talk of spiritual knowledge, but they don't find out what the real test is. Prabhupāda: What is your answer? Rāmeśvara: So we show them our books and say that these are the real scriptures, real quality. The (indistinct) have to be the quality of the spiritual knowledge. Prabhupāda: How do you explain? You are realized or not? (indistinct) Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, when you say that this is the knowledge that's been realized... Prabhupāda: What is that? Why don't you explain? (indistinct) That means they do not know. Devotee (2): One who is developing in spiritual life is becoming detached from material things. These persons who are following other gurus are attached to material things. They're still smoking, having sex life, drinking. Jayatīrtha: It's difficult to (indistinct) detached to material things. One should be attached to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That attachment will become. That is the special (indistinct). You cannot be completely detached. If you be detachment from something, you must be attached to something. Otherwise you have no perception(?). So you should be detached from matter and attached to Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (2): The devotee is always offering devotional service to the Supreme Personality. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (inaudible). Simply by knowledge... Knowledge you must have, but simply theoretical knowledge... Practical manifestation that he's a great devotee. Whenever there is any doubt or question, he will prove by the evidences of śāstra. Jayatīrtha: ...was saying last night to our scientist friend, than Kṛṣṇa is the perfect teacher. The spiritual master is simply repeating perfectly what Kṛṣṇa is saying. So if Kṛṣṇa is saying, "Surrender to Me," then the spiritual master is saying, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: So in this way, the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa are in complete agreement. Prabhupāda: Thus he becomes the (indistinct) of Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: The other teachers, they don't talk... Prabhupāda: When is Ekādaśī? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ekādaśī? Rāmeśvara: Tuesday is Ekādaśī. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tuesday, tomorrow? Rāmeśvara: Our calendar says Tuesday. It's obvious when they talk about their teachers that they never talk of service to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, they have no realization. Our relationship is service. So one who is not engaged in the service of the Supreme, he has no realization. Whatever little realization he has got, that is called śānta*-rasa. Jayatīrtha: Dāsya realization is (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Dāsya*-rasa. (indistinct) [break] ...practical devotee, he cannot become (indistinct). Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) what you were speaking about yesterday, that if someone claims to be a teacher but he doesn't actually have real knowledge, then he's simply cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: There's nothing practical that they say. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: They say nothing practical. *Prabhupāda: That means they do not follow any practical. That is their rascaldom. Nothing practical means they do not know what is the practical realization of God. That is their ignorance. And still they are claiming to be teachers. That is cheating. Just like these so*-called scientists, they are theorizing, but they cannot practically prove. Therefore, their knowledge is imperfect. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Jñānavān, the wise, after many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when he surrenders, that is practical. Simply knowledge is useless, theoretical. When he practically surrenders, that is end of knowledge. That is perfection. Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is stated. You don't read Bhagavad*-gītā? You don't read? Rāmeśvara: In class we have, every evening. *Prabhupāda: So in the Tenth Chapter it is said, teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. Do you know this verse? Bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. "One who is engaged in devotional service with love and faith," buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi, "I give him intelligence." That is stated. Satata-yuktānām, "Twenty-four hours engaged with love and faith in My service, I give him intelligence, not to others." That is the qualification. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi te yena mām upayānti. What kind of intelligence? By which one can come back to home, back to Godhead. Not for material enjoyment, or bluffing or cheating. Not that intelligence. That intelligence also given by Him, indirectly. "If you want to cheat, all right, I will give you how to cheat others." That is material. In the material world, we can cheat. In the spiritual world, there is no question of cheating. Jayatīrtha: The intelligence by which we can come to Kṛṣṇa is a special kind of intelligence. Prabhupāda: That is perfect intelligence. Therefore we say Kṛṣṇa is the perfect teacher. In the Fifteenth Chapter, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "I am sitting in everyone's heart. All intelligence, memory, is coming from Me, and forgetfulness also is caused by Me." So He is the supreme controller in every respect. Jayatīrtha: Why are some people remembering and some people are forgetting Him? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayatīrtha: If Kṛṣṇa is the source of both remembrance and forgetfulness... *Prabhupāda: Yes. When Kṛṣṇa sees that "Here is a rascal, so let him forget Me." So He will give him intelligence so that he can forget Kṛṣṇa for good. Not for good*-at least for some time. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the desire of the individual soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. "As one surrenders unto Me, according to that." Real process is surrender. So if you surrender with some reservation, with some ulterior motive, then Kṛṣṇa will give you proportionately intelligence. When you are cent percent without any reservation surrender, then you get all facility, all help from Kṛṣṇa, without asking... Just like a small child, he is fully surrendered unto the parent. The parent looks after all the necessities. He doesn't ask anything. That is wanted. Jayatīrtha: [break] ...the six principles of surrender in devotional service. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very important. What is the time? Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) minutes to seven. One of the six principles is that our interest must be the same in that we can't have any separate interest outside of the interest of the Lord. So that... Prabhupāda: That is surrender. You have no personal interest. Jayatīrtha: That would be another test of the spiritual master, is that if he has some interest outside of Kṛṣṇa's interest, then we can understand that he isn't surrendered. Prabhupāda: Anyone. All these rascals come as guru. They say, "I am Kṛṣṇa." Therefore, he has got his own interest. That is immediately disqualification, that he is a rascal. Kick him in his face, as soon as he says. Jayatīrtha: If a person is surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, he won't take over Kṛṣṇa's post. Prabhupāda: That's it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa one gets this bona fide spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always merciful. He comes Himself also and demands surrender, but we do not do that. That we cannot do. Jayatīrtha: As you were saying last night, if we had no independence, then there wouldn't be any question of... We'd be just like dull matter. There'd be no difference. So we have that independence. Prabhupāda: By our misuse of independence, we do not surrender. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender!" Jayatīrtha: The spiritual master teaches how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: And it's done by surrendering to the teachings of the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Then whatever he teaches is perfect, because to the surrendered soul Kṛṣṇa gives the intelligence. So when he speaks, he speaks perfectly because Kṛṣṇa is dictating, "You do this, you speak like this." *Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says to Sanātana Gosvāmī that spiritual life starts by accepting..., the moment the disciple accepts a spiritual master. And then he follows the instruction that... *Prabhupāda: Ādau gurvāśrayam, ādau first to accept a spiritual master. Sad*-dharma pṛcchā. Then inquiries. Sādhu mārgānugamanam. These are stated in our Nectar of Devotion. Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm? *Jayatīrtha: She is a 40*-years-old lady, her name is Lucille. She is very much actually convinced of our philosophy and is devoted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but the only thing is, because she comes conditioned from a previous life, can't give up, has a very hard time giving up smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee. She's been trying for about nine months to give up these things, (indistinct) but she can't do it. Still she is desirous of initiation. So I don't know what to (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. You must at least promise that he gives [break] And if we promise that (indistinct). But after initiation if she smokes, that's not good. Jayatīrtha: Yes. (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: So if someone is sincere, we want them to follow devotional principles. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. If you have the determination, Kṛṣṇa will help. If she is determined that "Even if I die, I shall not smoke," then Kṛṣṇa will help her. And if she thinks, "So I'll not do it. If Kṛṣṇa likes, He will help me." (indistinct) Just like (indistinct). He has prepared some nice foodstuff. So he says, "If Kṛṣṇa comes, I will give Him; otherwise I shall eat." (laughter) "And if Kṛṣṇa is very hungry, He will come." So this alternative proposal is not accepted. "If Kṛṣṇa comes, I will offer Him this. Otherwise I shall eat." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is personal motivation. Prabhupāda: This is not surrender. Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa is not attracted by the foodstuff; He's attracted by the devotion. Prabhupāda: Devotion, yes. For Kṛṣṇa we can offer (indistinct). [break] Jayatīrtha: You will go from London to Bombay? Prabhupāda: If need be. (indistinct) [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is dark. Prabhupāda: It's getting darker and darker. (indistinct) So we will have to change our plan. [break] (indistinct) ...and they are also making dog show. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I came here, I was walking and I saw big house and the restaurants. So I didn't know what... So I asked somebody, "Oh, this is just (indistinct)." And afterward I found out it was some food made out of... Devotee (2): Meat. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But I thought in the other sense that it may be dog's meat(?) [break] neighbour(?) from Poona, he was also from Calcutta, (indistinct) to me, he came little later than I, he thought... One day he came to me and he said he took a hamburger in the restaurant. He said that hamburger is not made out of beef. He said it is made out of ham. So he said he had hamburger. He came to me and he said. I said, "So you have taken beef?" So he said "No, it is not. It is ham." Prabhupāda: Now many Indians are taking beef. Most. In London, all Indians they take beef. The school children, they take beef. Jayatīrtha: They don't remember their culture. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When they come here, they change everything, most of them. Devotee (2): I run into many Indian people, many young boys going to school, on saṅkīrtana, on holidays. They don't want to try to understand Bhāgavata philosophy. Prabhupāda: Indian student? Devotee (2): Some students, they are going colleges for higher learning. *Prabhupāda: He was inquiring that why we ask no meat*-eating. They (indistinct) that why we ask no meat-eating. That Dr. Bernhard, he was asking. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Benford?. *Prabhupāda: Benford. [break] ...before me never dared to ask people to stop meat*-eating. Rather, they learned how to eat meat. Vivekananda was eighty years ago, he came. He learned how to eat meat. Instead of teaching Vedānta, he learned how to eat meat. Jayatīrtha: In the Vedānta Society temple in Santa Barbara, they were offering chicken soup... Prabhupāda: Prasādam. Jayatīrtha: ...to the Goddess Kālī an offering, and then they were distributing it as prasādam. Prabhupāda: In the name of Vedānta. Jayatīrtha: Vedānta means the goal of knowledge, but they are making an end of knowledge. Keśava went to Santa Barbara last night to finish up some last minute business he had there, but now he's back and he is resting. Prabhupāda: So he is prepared to go to London? Jayatīrtha: He seems anxious to go, yes. Prabhupāda: That's good. Why Śyāmasundara does not return? Jayatīrtha: He's here. He's also asleep. He came in the middle of the night, two or three o'clock in the morning. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) is in charge of our traveling saṅkīrtana party, so he's back here for a few days. They're going around to all the fairs, state fairs, county fairs, and distributing literature. He's had very great success Prabhupāda: Indians are coming in Europe and America to learn technology, but next generation will come here to learn spiritual science, to seek brāhmaṇas. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there's no doubt about it. They will learn technology the coming years, and when they become frustrated again, then they will again learn the spiritual science. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: A lot of times when the Indian people come to our temple, they remark like that, that they've never seen such a temple and devotees. Prabhupāda: There is no temple in India. As we are maintaining our temple, there is no such temple in India. There are temple, they are neglected. Just like here, the churches are neglected. [break] ...demons, and here we are manufacturing demigods. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I read in the news that in the next five*-year plan, they are planning to spend about thirty-two billion rupees for education, the greatest for ten years. They said that there were so many mistakes for the last ten years in introducing the basic education that everybody said there is no success. So they are planning another thirty-two billion rupees from 1974 onwards. Prabhupāda: What education? To eat meat and beef. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That education. And no restriction of sex even amongst the leaders. Jayatīrtha: And all advanced contraceptive methods. *Prabhupāda: This Jawaharlal(?) was implicated with his sister, and some say with his daughter also, and he was the prime minister. This is their position. In our Indian system, education is mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu: every woman except your own wife, all mothers. That is education. Mātrā svasrā duhitrā vā [SB 9.19.17]. Either your mother or sister or daughter, you don't live together alone. These are education. And they're freely advocating sex life. What is the (indistinct) difference? In India they're doing, so many leaders. (indistinct), it can be done. The leaders are speaking while doing that. No discrimination, just like hog. No discrimination. [break] *Jayatīrtha: ...in Īśopaniṣad that modern*-day educational system means culturing avidyā. Prabhupāda: Yes, avidyā. Jayatīrtha: So they're spending so much, so many billions of rupees, simply to culture ignorance. Prabhupāda: Making rogues and guṇḍās and hippies, that's all. The science is manufacturing atom bomb, and philanthropy is becoming hippies. This is the result of education. They are manufacturing compounds, strong contraceptive method, infallible contraceptive method. Suffering only. What is the time now? Jayatīrtha: (?) minutes to seven. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this propensity will increase in this Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...so many riots by the students at the university there that the shopkeepers in the local area are suing the State because the windows have been broken so many times and so much merchandise has been stolen by the students, they think the State should pay them back. Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. The State must be responsible. What the State reply? Jayatīrtha: Well, they're having to litigate in court over it. The State doesn't want to do it. So this university there is one of the most famous universities in the whole country. They spend so many millions of dollars to maintain it nicely. [break] (dog barking) ...changing their bodies in particular ways to make them look (indistinct). Prabhupāda: When you do not take care of God, you must take care of dog. (laughter) (end) Amara Jivana with Purport -- October 2, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: The name of the song, the microphone stopped working . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . what was the name of the song Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata. (tuning mṛdaṅga ) . . . (indistinct) (plays mṛdaṅga , karatālas ) Prabhupāda: So you will play? Devotee: Yes I will play. Prabhupāda: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata. (Audio from the CD version of the purport): Āmāra Jīvana, 'The Way of Refuge' from Śaraṇāgati by Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura - Gold Series CD 8 Track 3: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata nāhiko puṇyera leśa . This is a song sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in Vaiṣṇava humbleness. A Vaiṣṇava is always meek and humble. So he is describing the life of the people in general, taking himself to be one of them. The people in general are like the description given here. He says that, "My life is always engaged in sinful activities, and if you try to find out, you will not find even a trace of pious activities. Only full of sinful activities. And I am always inclined to give trouble to other living entities. That is my business. I want to see that others are suffering, and I enjoy." *Nija sukha lāgi' pāpe nāhi ḍori. "For my personal sense gratification, I do not care for any sinful activities. That means I accept any kind of sinful activity if it is satisfactory to my senses." Dayā*-hīna swārtha-paro. "I am not at all merciful, and only I see to my personal interest." *Para*-sukhe duḥkhī. "As such, when others are suffering I become very happy, and always talking lies," sadā mithyā-bhāṣī . "Even for ordinary things I am accustomed to speak lies." Para-duḥkha sukha-karo. "And if one is suffering, that is very pleasant to me." Aśeṣa kāmanā hṛdi mājhe mora. "I have got lots of desire within my heart, and I am always angry and falsely prestigious, always puffed up with false pride." *Mada*-matta sadā viṣaye mohita. "I am captivated in subject matters of sense gratification, and almost I am crazy." Hiṁsā-garva vibhūṣaṇa. "My ornaments are enviousness and false pride." Nidralāsya hata sukārje birata. "I am subdued, or I am conquered by sleep and laziness," sukārje birata , "and I am always averse to pious activities," akārje udyogīāmi , "and I am very enthusiastic to perform impious activities." *Pratiṣṭha lāgiyāśāṭhya-ācaraṇa , "I always cheat others for my prestige." Lobha*-hata sadā kāmī , "I am conquered by greediness and always lusty." E heno durjana saj-jana-barjita , "So I am so fallen, and I have no association of devotees." Aparādhi , "Offender," nirantara , "always." *Śubha*-kārja-śūnya , "In my life, there is not a beat of auspicious activities," sadānartha manāḥ , "and my mind is always attracted by something mischievous." Nānā duḥkhe jara jara . "Therefore at the fag end of my life, I am almost invalid by all such sufferings." *Bārdhakye ekhona upāya*-vihīna , "In my old age I have no other alternative now," tā 'te dīna akiñcana , "therefore by force, I have now become very humble and meek." Bhaktivinoda prabhura caraṇe , "Thus Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is offering his statement of life's activities at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord." (end) Amara Jivana with Purport -- October 2, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: The name of the song, the microphone stopped working . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . what was the name of the song Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata. (tuning mṛdaṅga ) . . . (indistinct) (plays mṛdaṅga , karatālas ) Prabhupāda: So you will play? Devotee: Yes I will play. Prabhupāda: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata. (Audio from the CD version of the purport): Āmāra Jīvana, 'The Way of Refuge' from Śaraṇāgati by Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura - Gold Series CD 8 Track 3: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata nāhiko puṇyera leśa . This is a song sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in Vaiṣṇava humbleness. A Vaiṣṇava is always meek and humble. So he is describing the life of the people in general, taking himself to be one of them. The people in general are like the description given here. He says that, "My life is always engaged in sinful activities, and if you try to find out, you will not find even a trace of pious activities. Only full of sinful activities. And I am always inclined to give trouble to other living entities. That is my business. I want to see that others are suffering, and I enjoy." *Nija sukha lāgi' pāpe nāhi ḍori. "For my personal sense gratification, I do not care for any sinful activities. That means I accept any kind of sinful activity if it is satisfactory to my senses." Dayā*-hīna swārtha-paro. "I am not at all merciful, and only I see to my personal interest." *Para*-sukhe duḥkhī. "As such, when others are suffering I become very happy, and always talking lies," sadā mithyā-bhāṣī . "Even for ordinary things I am accustomed to speak lies." Para-duḥkha sukha-karo. "And if one is suffering, that is very pleasant to me." Aśeṣa kāmanā hṛdi mājhe mora. "I have got lots of desire within my heart, and I am always angry and falsely prestigious, always puffed up with false pride." *Mada*-matta sadā viṣaye mohita. "I am captivated in subject matters of sense gratification, and almost I am crazy." Hiṁsā-garva vibhūṣaṇa. "My ornaments are enviousness and false pride." Nidralāsya hata sukārje birata. "I am subdued, or I am conquered by sleep and laziness," sukārje birata , "and I am always averse to pious activities," akārje udyogīāmi , "and I am very enthusiastic to perform impious activities." *Pratiṣṭha lāgiyāśāṭhya-ācaraṇa , "I always cheat others for my prestige." Lobha*-hata sadā kāmī , "I am conquered by greediness and always lusty." E heno durjana saj-jana-barjita , "So I am so fallen, and I have no association of devotees." Aparādhi , "Offender," nirantara , "always." *Śubha*-kārja-śūnya , "In my life, there is not a beat of auspicious activities," sadānartha manāḥ , "and my mind is always attracted by something mischievous." Nānā duḥkhe jara jara . "Therefore at the fag end of my life, I am almost invalid by all such sufferings." *Bārdhakye ekhona upāya*-vihīna , "In my old age I have no other alternative now," tā 'te dīna akiñcana , "therefore by force, I have now become very humble and meek." Bhaktivinoda prabhura caraṇe , "Thus Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is offering his statement of life's activities at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord." (end) Conversation -- October 3, 1972, Los Angeles (noisy recording) Prabhupāda: Where is Śyāmasundara? He's not here. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He's downstairs packing . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? *Guest: I haven't read any of them . . . (indistinct) . . . various Bhagavad*-gītā's , but not ah . . . I haven't read any. Prabhupāda: Show our books. *Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā , Teachings of Lord Caitanya . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Devotee: This is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: My picture is backside. *Devotee: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . this is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Śrīla Prabhupāda and published in 1960. Guest: Who founded the Society? Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Pradyumna: The *Nectar of Devotion* , this tells about psychological aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: (indistinct) . . . psychological . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: Tells about the symptoms of devotional service . . . (indistinct) . . . the symptoms of having a pure relationship with God. Guest: Could you, could you not . . . (indistinct) . . . this whether or not you have a pure relationship with God. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): (background) Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Guest: You showed me. *Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book . . . (indistinct) . . . an essential part of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with 18,000 versus, where the Bhagavad-gītā leaves off. This is the essential part . . . (indistinct) . . . sublime knowledge . . . (indistinct) . . . tells directly about Kṛṣṇa, where He lives . . . (indistinct) . . . who His associates are, what His activities are. Guest: This is very beautiful. So many stories. Prabhupāda: Ah. Stor . . . philosophy and life, of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That's nice . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Stories . . . (indistinct) *Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . is the elementary book for spiritual life . . . (indistinct) . . . get into the science of God with Kṛṣṇa's instruction . . . (indistinct) . . . engaged in devotional service and be liberated and this Bhāgavatam it starts where Bhagavad-gītā leaves off. *Bhagavad*-gītā begins and then the Bhāgavatam starts where the Bhagavad-gītā leaves off with the last instruction it goes on to expand and develop devotional service. Just the pure side of devotional service. Up to this point of Kṛṣṇa Book . Kṛṣṇa Book is the full realisation of who the Personality of Godhead is. Guest: Hm. The *Kṛṣṇa Book* is a synthesis of what? *Pradyumna: You see, it is a combination of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Do you have classes? Prabhupāda: There are daily classes. At six, quarter past six in the morning. Guest: How do you, do you see people or do you mostly speak with priests? Prabhupāda: No, we speak to our students. But outside, there are many outsiders that come. Guest: When one of the . . . when one of the . . . when one of the people here are feeling, ah . . . not in touch with themselves or the world . . . out of grasp, out of tune with nature. Is it God after or is . . . an elevation of the spirit away from the body and away from that problem and you go into that problem and then you work on it or. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: I'm curious as to whether you . . . when there is a problem and the principal players around me with the person in society then and the way that person feels about themselves in society. Do you help that person by transcending that plane by going above it and becoming more in tune with em . . . Prabhupāda: No we speak on the transcendental platform not on the bodily or mental or intellectual platform. We speak directly on the spiritual platform. Do you distinguish between mind and body mind intellect, and spirit? Do you have any such distinction? Different platform. What do you care for? Sensual? Then above that mental platform above that intellectual platform above that spiritual platform. Guest: And do you go in those steps in the training or in the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes these are the four platforms. Body, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur ( BG 3.42). First of all our direct perception is on the sensual platform by sense perception. Just like seeing directly and seeing directly this special. And then I am seeing by hearing from others. These two visions are different, a child is seeing this machine and a mechanic who has heard about this machine he's seeing differently. And then one actually mechanic is thinking to improve it and that is another vision. So even on the material platform there are three visions and above all these material, means bodily . . . material mean sensual, mental and intellectual. Above that there is the spiritual platform, so we speak on the spiritual platform. Guest: And if someone who is having problems on another platform, say at the physical platform . . . Prabhupāda: Then he can be treated physically. Guest: Do you treat him physically? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No. Okay. Prabhupāda: We, we take it that if spiritually one is sound then intellectually mentally and physically he will be sound. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is our proposition. Just like if you have got a $100 then you have got $50, $10 and $25, that includes, but if you are got $10 then you haven't got $100. But if you have $100 then you have automatically $10, so we train our students spiritually, just like for spiritual understanding they have to rise early in the morning, they have to take bath. They have to take Kṛṣṇa prasādam they are forbidden to take so many things, so in this way automatically their physical hygienic problem is solved. We don't pay very much doctor's fees, I'm here for the last seven years, I did not pay doctor's fees, mostly our students they haven't got to consult for their physical disease. Mostly they are immune from disease. So actually your body is healthy in sound bodily . . . I mean to say health, mental, I mean to say what's it called? Fixity, everything is there because the spirit soul is there, because the spirit soul is there your body looks healthy, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from the body it will immediately begin to decompose, is it not? Guest: The body will in the end. Prabhupāda: The . . . within your body you are—the spirit soul, I am the spirit soul so as soon as I the spirit soul, you the spirit soul go— leave this body immediately the body begins to decompose. Guest (2): How do you feed the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: That I shall say, first of all because the spirit soul is there you are healthy. You take out the spirit soul, immediately your this lump of matter begins to decompose. Dead body and living body this is the distinction so long the spirit soul is there it is called living body, as soon as the spirit soul is not there it is called dead body. Dead body means it has begun decomposition, therefore the conclusion should be that so long the spirit is there . . . as long as the spirit is there so long the mind and body is in sound condition. You see? Therefore if you keep yourself always spiritually fit then you will keep mentally and intellectually and bodily fit. Now so far the spirit soul is concerned. You have no conception of spirit soul? Guest: Some conception. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: Ah . . . em . . . my words don't do very well ah . . . in essence that inexpressible ah . . . ineffable . . . ah . . . Prabhupāda: But that is negation. That is not experimental. Guest: That essence of me which is the same as of you and everyone. Prabhupāda: No, perception of the spirit soul, the spirit soul is existing within your body. I am enquiring whether you agree to this or not? Guest (2): You're asked us whether we agree that it exists within our body, ah . . . as I conceive of it, I am not used to thinking in terms of . . . the terms that you've derived, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No we accept, unless we accept or accept means unless we perceive and know it there is no question of spiritual education if I cannot understand what is that spirit soul then where is spiritual education and that is the basic principle of spiritual education. Guest: I thought that I understood what you meant but I'm not sure now but what I feel when you talk about the spirit soul is that part of me that I feel most when I am not using my physical senses and I am not contemplating talking. Prabhupāda: No, physical senses are working due to spiritual presence, you are moving your hand because the spirit soul is within you, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from this body it is simply a lump of matter. Guest (2): The matter is separate from the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Does the spirit soul . . . is my spirit soul any different from anyone else's spirit soul? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest: Yeah. I can understand that. Prabhupāda: The vital force, the moving force that is in you and that is in me that is in ant that is in elephant that is everywhere. Guest (2): Is it in the matter? Is it in the decomposed matter? Is it in the wood? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Is it in our bodies after we are dead? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are dead, "you" spirit gone but other spirit is there. Guest: But are the cords the same? Prabhupāda: There are innumerable individual spirit souls. Guest: Individual spirit soul's? Prabhupāda: You are individual, I am individual, he's . . . everyone. Guest (2): And there is not a cord spirit soul that is the same with all of them? Prabhupāda: The quality is the same, the quality is the same. Just like you are human being, I am a human being, you have got your two hands I have got my two hands, you have got legs I have got legs, but still you are different, that is individuality. Because we agreed to have two hands two legs one head that does not mean we agree on everything. Guest: But at the basis at the essence our spirit soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Is there any difference? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No. Okay. Prabhupāda: No. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: What happens when someone comes to . . . ah hear and they are caught up or having a problem in say a physical or mental plane and can't understand the spiritual plane how do you tie them into that so they can transcend the problem? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If one comes to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform then there is no more any problem bodily mentally or. Guest: But what I am, what I'm curious about is how you tie someone into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: We have got our process. Guest: It's not. Prabhupāda: We have got our process. We . . . Guest (2): A healing process? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): A healing process? Healing. *Prabhupāda: Healing. Yes it is healing process. It is healing process, just like you also heal by some psycho*-theist process similarly we also heal by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Guest: Could you say a bit about that process? Prabhupāda: Yes this chanting Hare Krishna, mantra . Just like there is a process of snakebite, have you seen a snake charmer? In India we have got still, if one is bitten by a snake he is unconscious by chanting the mantra you will gradually come to consciousness. So this is material, similarly we are spirit soul we are now—everyone of us—either psychologically, mentally or bodily, we are all diseased, all diseased. So by this chanting process he comes to his consciousness and all this material, bodily mental intellectual diseases are cured. Guest (2): It would seem that someone would have to be on a certain mind for that to be of assistance. Prabhupāda: No, we create that situation, simply by chanting. We are chanting and he joins in chanting, all our students do that. Then he becomes cured, mentally intellectually and bodily. Guest (2): See we meet people who would not do that, they seek healing from other individuals more than from themselves and what they can bring up by concentration by chanting. They seek assistance more from outside than from within by chanting and they are not used to looking within or delving within by chanting. Prabhupāda: No we have got so many students and simply by chanting they are cured. Mental, bodily and intellectually, we have so many students, you can talk any one of them. Guest: After going through the process to get their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then would the students stay in the movement as far as like at the temple, in the temple or would they go out into the community and . . . and do regular jobs and that type of thing? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many professions, he is . . . he is a Dr. of chemistry. He is doing his job but he is a Kṛṣṇa conscious and there is many professors, many workers. It is not that one has to live in the temple, no. He can live outside. But he keeps his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But within the society it is easier because association has got some influence. Guest: It's easier to stay with the discipline. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Guest (2): Do you teach ah, control over the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): In relation over the body. Prabhupāda: Yes, as we say no meat eating, no intoxicants, no illicit sex, no gambling, there are so many no's. And so many yes so they have to do that. Do's and do not's, that is control. Do this and do not do this, so this is control. Guest (2): You mentioned . . . Prabhupāda: The . . . our students do not even smoke, do not drink tea coffee nothing. They do not go to cinema, no club, no restaurant. Guest: No what? Prabhupāda: Restaurant. We have no such expenditure and probably no doctors bill. So at least we save so much expenditure. Guest (2): You said: "no illicit sex," what is permissible sex? Prabhupāda: Permissible sex means married wife. One must be married and with married wife he can have sex once in a month after the menstrual period and when the wife is pregnant no more sex life. This is control. If he wants sex life he can have another wife but not to the pregnant wife. Therefore we allow but not in your country but in India polygamy is allowed. One man can marry more than one wife but he cannot have sex life with the wife more than once in a month and that is stopped when she is pregnant. This is control of sex and . . . (indistinct) . . . against this that is illicit sex. Guest (2): Which . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Even with your wife when she is pregnant if you have sex that is illicit sex. Guest (2): Do you conceive of punishment? Prabhupāda: Punishment it will be already there automatically by nature's way . . . Guest: Are women and . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as you violate nature's law you will be punished. Suppose you are eating, if you eat a little more you will be punished. That is nature's law. If you have more sex life then you become impotent. That is nature's punishment is there . . . And if you indulge in all these prohibited things then you will never understand what is spiritual consciousness. That is the greatest punishment. If you do not understand what is spiritual life you remain as an animal, that is the greatest punishment, because animal cannot understand what is spiritual life. So in spite of getting the chance of a human form of body if we keep ourselves like animals, is it not the greatest punishment? If I cannot improve as a human being, I remain on the animal platform, is it not the greatest punishment? So if you do not follow these principles then we cannot understand what is spiritual life, that means we remain animal. Guest: Is there an endpoint to the growth process? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Is there an end point? Prabhupāda: Yes as soon as you understand God then your knowledge is perfect. If you do not understand what is God then your knowledge is imperfect. The animals cannot be educated about God, a human being can be educated what is God therefore there are so many books, literatures, scriptures in the human society so if you don't take advantage of this human life to understand God then you remain animal. Guest: Have you seen people who have understood God and who have ah . . . who have been in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that have been regressed or gone back into the other platforms? Prabhupāda: That one can go because there is relapse, you become released from disease and again there may be relapse. Guest: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Any disease, you are for the time being, being cured but again you infect so you became again diseased, that is possible, but if you keep yourself quite fit always there is no fall down. Guest: So then . . . sort of in essence the path to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is. Prabhupāda: Is to understand God. Guest: To understand God and to do what is most natural, to follow the natural laws. Prabhupāda: The essence is to know God and to love Him, that is our propaganda. The human life is meant for understanding God and love Him. Guest: I can follow easily what you're saying as far as the discipline and the path to your Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to do the what . . . what is the most natural . . . and that overeating overindulging in anything, sex . . . anything is not natural but what I don't understand is how it is decided what is most natural? *In other words if I am ah . . . if I go back to the point about sex because it is a concrete easy thing to talk about and for instance is it . . . is it just natural to have sex twice a month than once a month? It seems like the cut*-off point is where I would have problems mostly accepting what is the most natural. Prabhupāda: The . . . first of all the basic principle of understanding is that I am spirit soul. I am not this body and because I have accepted this body I have to accept so many bodily troubles . . . (truck sound) Guest: So many what? Prabhupāda: Bodily troubles. Guest: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: The treatment is required body mind, because we have got this body and mind. So my problem is why I have contacted this body and mind? Guest: Why you have? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I go to treatment for my body because I have got this body . . . but if I don't possess this body then there is no question of treatment. Guest: I missed the last bit. If you don't have this body then . . .? Prabhupāda: Our proposition is as I have already told, spirit soul is different from this body. Somehow or other the spirit soul has contacted this material body and all our troubles are due to this material body, therefore this material body is my problem. Guest: Since the spirit soul in the body are different . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . can the body come up with a disease that is completely separated from the spirit soul. In other words could someone on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness get a physical disease of their bodies? Prabhupāda: The body is subjected to physical disease, how can you avoid it? But if you know, just like two men are sitting in a car, very nice car, somehow or other the car is damaged the man who possesses the car he is most afflicted and the other man he is not afflicted. Although they are both of them are sitting in the same car, why it is? You are psychologist you can understand. Guest: Well certainly only from a physical sense, from the, the. Prabhupāda: This is physical. Guest: Yeah the . . . Prabhupāda: Both you and me are sitting in the same car. Guest: Right but even if the owner was at that time . . . if he was away from his body . . . if he was . . . Prabhupāda: No not away, even within the car both of them are within the car. Now the car is damaged the owner is afflicted, he is concerned but the friend is not concerned. What is the cause? Guest: The possession. Prabhupāda: Yes this man is absorbed in possession, "Oh my car is gone," and because he has got the sense of possession he is not affected. Therefore the body is different from the soul when he comes to the consciousness of not possession then there is no trouble. Guest: So someone who has trust in the consciousness may come down with a bodily illness but they won't be afflicted by it . . . em spiritual. Prabhupāda: Yes afflicted, suppose a man who knows perfectly well that I am not this car, "All right the car is a damaged I'll look some money, it doesn't matter." That is one thing. And another one is too much absorbed, "Oh my car is gone, my life is gone," this is the position. One who is absorbed he is more afflicted, one who is not absorbed he knows that, "I am not this body", he is not afflicted. So it is a question of consciousness, one who is too much bodily conscious he is afflicted, otherwise one who is not bodily conscious he will not be afflicted, "Oh it has come into effect, that's all . . . it doesn't matter let me do my duty Hare Krishna and chant." This is the position, it is a question of development of that consciousness. Guest: If someone comes in and they are preoccupied mentally with what would be a . . . a bad thought or something that keeps. Prabhupāda: Bad thought cannot come to him because if he is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa thought . . . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . then there is no bad thought, there is no scope of bad thought. Because you can think of one subject matter at a time so if you are 24 hours absorbed in Kṛṣṇa thoughts then there is no question of bad thoughts. Guest: So if someone comes in and admittedly when they first come in they are preoccupied by a bad thought, for say two hours. Prabhupāda: Yes that is cured. Guest: Then just by . . . by getting away from it, not by expressing the thought and getting away from it but by not expressing the thought and getting away from it? Prabhupāda: No the same thing, a man comes to our society with bad thoughts. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: But by chanting chanting chanting he becomes relieved of this burden. Guest: Oh but he doesn't talk about the bad thought to anyone in the . . . Prabhupāda: He may talk or not talk it doesn't matter but it goes away. Guest (2): One thing I don't quite understand, you, you and the people around you often seek to involve and to proselytise, strangers, new people, why is that? Prabhupāda: You also proselytise, when a mad man goes to you, you turn him into sane man. Is it not proselytising? Guest (2): Yes, if he comes to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Your people go out to other people. Prabhupāda: We are better friends, you do not go, we are better friends. You charge fees, we canvass so we are better than you. Guest (2): Do you. Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. Guest (2): Am well. Prabhupāda: Don't avoid this question. You charge, we don't charge, we go to the diseased man and canvass, so we are better man than you. Guest (2): What if he says no to you? Prabhupāda: Well anyone can say no, any canvassing. Suppose this is nice foodstuff, here is fruit the fruit man is canvassing, "Here is nice mango," that does not mean everyone will take. The mango is nice. Because one does not take that doesn't mean the mango goes bad. It is his misfortune that he could not take a nice mango. Guest (2): I was just thinking what you were just saying about charging and how our . . . Prabhupāda: No you . . . but charging of course that is your profession but we are not professional we distribute free. We distribute such exalted thing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we distribute free. Guest (2): I think it seems that there is a . . . there is a giving . . . there is something that is given by the person to you when he joins you and takes your ideas. He gives you his time, he gives you what. Prabhupāda: He gives everything. Guest (2): . . . they have. Prabhupāda: He gives everything. Guest (2): Eventually . . . Prabhupāda: Just like these boys they have given everything. So how do they give everything? We don't charge, we don't ask but they give everything. So do you think they are all fools and rascals? That they are giving everything for Kṛṣṇa. What is your idea? Guest (2): They may do what they wish if that is what they want. Prabhupāda: You, you examine each of our students they are not fools and rascals and why do they give everything for Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): They want to. Prabhupāda: Yes that is natural to give everything to Kṛṣṇa that is sane condition without this insane condition . . . just like if you take something from my table, the sane condition is if you return it . . . the sane condition . . . suppose somebody takes this box in his pocket without my knowledge he will be in tribulation, "Oh I have taken this without his knowledge what will he say," so many things but he will be cured from all this trouble when he returns it. Similarly everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything belongs to God, nothing belongs to me even this body. Therefore everything offering to Kṛṣṇa is the same condition . . . so when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they return everything what they received from Kṛṣṇa, this is sanity. Others are thieves they enjoy other's property and claiming my property. Just like, take for example your country, USA. Is it actually your country, your place? Do you think? 200 years ago it did not belong to you it belonged to the Red Indians and now you are claiming your country. Why? Maybe after 200 years it may go to others. So where is your country? Suppose we are sitting here say for half an hour or one hour does it belong to you, this room? If you claim, "now I have sat here for one hour it is my room," is that claim is all right? Guest: That is, that is all right, what still bothers me is not that the sanity is giving everything to God or giving your life to God which I . . . Prabhupāda: God has given you the life. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: God has given you the body, God has given you the mind, God has given you wealth, everything. So therefore everything belongs to God to come to this consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Yeah. I thin . . . what bothers me is that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . other consciousness is also . . . the path of giving everything to God or indeed giving everything to God or the spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: No we are talking of the philosophy. Guest: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: We're talking now. Guest: But whether Kṛṣṇa consciousness versus other consciousness in other ways of achieving the same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Actually by philosophical study you have to understand that everything belongs to God. Guest: Which is basic to the philosophy of many religions and ways of understanding God. Prabhupāda: Yes that is the original philosophy that is, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), "Everything belongs to God." We also belong to God, we are children of God therefore we have the right to use God's property but not more than what you require. Guest: But not more than. Prabhupāda: But not more than what you require. Guest: Yeah what you require. Prabhupāda: Now you're God's sons, I am God's son, he is God's son and everything God's property, so you enjoyed your father's property, I enjoy but when you encroach on my property I take more you starve or I take you starve my starve—that is irreligious. If we accept that everything belongs to God, we are sons of God every one of us, even animals, insects, birds bees trees they are all sons of God. So God's property, we are sons of God we have got the right to use but not more than what you require, then it is nice. That is God consciousness. Guest: I would certainly agree with that but again my own conflict is whether the Kṛṣṇa consciousness versus other consciousness is . . . Prabhupāda: Other consciousness is partial and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is full. Just like other consciousness is. Guest: Other consciousness partial. Prabhupāda: Just like American national consciousness but that is partial but when you speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is complete. Guest: How is it more complete than . . . than Hinduism? Prabhupāda: We are talking of God there is no Hindu or Christian. God is for everyone for Hindu Christian for everyone. God is neither Hindu nor Christian. (break) . . . and love God it doesn't matter whether you're Christian or Hindu or Muslim or this or that. Guest: (indistinct) . . . thank you for seeing us. Guest (2): Thank you for talking to us. Prabhupāda: (aside) give them prasadam . You have got your cards? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Give them some. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some? . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever you like . . . Thank you very much. Guest: Thank you. Guest (2): Thank you. Guest: Hare Krishna. (break) (pause) Prabhupāda: This psychiatric . . . I have never seen a patient cured by a scientist. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: I . . . (indistinct) . . . more than that. I think scientists are better than psychiatrists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) they do something good, psychiatrists they just take money from the fools. Prabhupāda: There are many patients who regularly attend psychiatrists. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially in this country, generally it's a married couples they take their problems so the psychiatrists they just take money from these . . . people. Devotee: Very large . . . (indistinct) . . . very expensive. Prabhupāda: So no lunch today . . . (indistinct) . . . 4 o'clock. Devotee: That strawberry, did you have the strawberry? Prabhupāda: Yes very nice. Devotee: That was nice? That will keep for a long time, we can have some more of that. Very simple. (break) (end) Conversation -- October 3, 1972, Los Angeles (noisy recording) Prabhupāda: Where is Śyāmasundara? He's not here. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He's downstairs packing . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? *Guest: I haven't read any of them . . . (indistinct) . . . various Bhagavad*-gītā's , but not ah . . . I haven't read any. Prabhupāda: Show our books. *Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā , Teachings of Lord Caitanya . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Devotee: This is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: My picture is backside. *Devotee: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . this is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Śrīla Prabhupāda and published in 1960. Guest: Who founded the Society? Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Pradyumna: The *Nectar of Devotion* , this tells about psychological aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: (indistinct) . . . psychological . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: Tells about the symptoms of devotional service . . . (indistinct) . . . the symptoms of having a pure relationship with God. Guest: Could you, could you not . . . (indistinct) . . . this whether or not you have a pure relationship with God. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): (background) Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Guest: You showed me. *Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book . . . (indistinct) . . . an essential part of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with 18,000 versus, where the Bhagavad-gītā leaves off. This is the essential part . . . (indistinct) . . . sublime knowledge . . . (indistinct) . . . tells directly about Kṛṣṇa, where He lives . . . (indistinct) . . . who His associates are, what His activities are. Guest: This is very beautiful. So many stories. Prabhupāda: Ah. Stor . . . philosophy and life, of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That's nice . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Stories . . . (indistinct) *Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . is the elementary book for spiritual life . . . (indistinct) . . . get into the science of God with Kṛṣṇa's instruction . . . (indistinct) . . . engaged in devotional service and be liberated and this Bhāgavatam it starts where Bhagavad-gītā leaves off. *Bhagavad*-gītā begins and then the Bhāgavatam starts where the Bhagavad-gītā leaves off with the last instruction it goes on to expand and develop devotional service. Just the pure side of devotional service. Up to this point of Kṛṣṇa Book . Kṛṣṇa Book is the full realisation of who the Personality of Godhead is. Guest: Hm. The *Kṛṣṇa Book* is a synthesis of what? *Pradyumna: You see, it is a combination of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Do you have classes? Prabhupāda: There are daily classes. At six, quarter past six in the morning. Guest: How do you, do you see people or do you mostly speak with priests? Prabhupāda: No, we speak to our students. But outside, there are many outsiders that come. Guest: When one of the . . . when one of the . . . when one of the people here are feeling, ah . . . not in touch with themselves or the world . . . out of grasp, out of tune with nature. Is it God after or is . . . an elevation of the spirit away from the body and away from that problem and you go into that problem and then you work on it or. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: I'm curious as to whether you . . . when there is a problem and the principal players around me with the person in society then and the way that person feels about themselves in society. Do you help that person by transcending that plane by going above it and becoming more in tune with em . . . Prabhupāda: No we speak on the transcendental platform not on the bodily or mental or intellectual platform. We speak directly on the spiritual platform. Do you distinguish between mind and body mind intellect, and spirit? Do you have any such distinction? Different platform. What do you care for? Sensual? Then above that mental platform above that intellectual platform above that spiritual platform. Guest: And do you go in those steps in the training or in the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes these are the four platforms. Body, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur ( BG 3.42). First of all our direct perception is on the sensual platform by sense perception. Just like seeing directly and seeing directly this special. And then I am seeing by hearing from others. These two visions are different, a child is seeing this machine and a mechanic who has heard about this machine he's seeing differently. And then one actually mechanic is thinking to improve it and that is another vision. So even on the material platform there are three visions and above all these material, means bodily . . . material mean sensual, mental and intellectual. Above that there is the spiritual platform, so we speak on the spiritual platform. Guest: And if someone who is having problems on another platform, say at the physical platform . . . Prabhupāda: Then he can be treated physically. Guest: Do you treat him physically? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No. Okay. Prabhupāda: We, we take it that if spiritually one is sound then intellectually mentally and physically he will be sound. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is our proposition. Just like if you have got a $100 then you have got $50, $10 and $25, that includes, but if you are got $10 then you haven't got $100. But if you have $100 then you have automatically $10, so we train our students spiritually, just like for spiritual understanding they have to rise early in the morning, they have to take bath. They have to take Kṛṣṇa prasādam they are forbidden to take so many things, so in this way automatically their physical hygienic problem is solved. We don't pay very much doctor's fees, I'm here for the last seven years, I did not pay doctor's fees, mostly our students they haven't got to consult for their physical disease. Mostly they are immune from disease. So actually your body is healthy in sound bodily . . . I mean to say health, mental, I mean to say what's it called? Fixity, everything is there because the spirit soul is there, because the spirit soul is there your body looks healthy, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from the body it will immediately begin to decompose, is it not? Guest: The body will in the end. Prabhupāda: The . . . within your body you are—the spirit soul, I am the spirit soul so as soon as I the spirit soul, you the spirit soul go— leave this body immediately the body begins to decompose. Guest (2): How do you feed the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: That I shall say, first of all because the spirit soul is there you are healthy. You take out the spirit soul, immediately your this lump of matter begins to decompose. Dead body and living body this is the distinction so long the spirit soul is there it is called living body, as soon as the spirit soul is not there it is called dead body. Dead body means it has begun decomposition, therefore the conclusion should be that so long the spirit is there . . . as long as the spirit is there so long the mind and body is in sound condition. You see? Therefore if you keep yourself always spiritually fit then you will keep mentally and intellectually and bodily fit. Now so far the spirit soul is concerned. You have no conception of spirit soul? Guest: Some conception. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: Ah . . . em . . . my words don't do very well ah . . . in essence that inexpressible ah . . . ineffable . . . ah . . . Prabhupāda: But that is negation. That is not experimental. Guest: That essence of me which is the same as of you and everyone. Prabhupāda: No, perception of the spirit soul, the spirit soul is existing within your body. I am enquiring whether you agree to this or not? Guest (2): You're asked us whether we agree that it exists within our body, ah . . . as I conceive of it, I am not used to thinking in terms of . . . the terms that you've derived, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No we accept, unless we accept or accept means unless we perceive and know it there is no question of spiritual education if I cannot understand what is that spirit soul then where is spiritual education and that is the basic principle of spiritual education. Guest: I thought that I understood what you meant but I'm not sure now but what I feel when you talk about the spirit soul is that part of me that I feel most when I am not using my physical senses and I am not contemplating talking. Prabhupāda: No, physical senses are working due to spiritual presence, you are moving your hand because the spirit soul is within you, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from this body it is simply a lump of matter. Guest (2): The matter is separate from the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Does the spirit soul . . . is my spirit soul any different from anyone else's spirit soul? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest: Yeah. I can understand that. Prabhupāda: The vital force, the moving force that is in you and that is in me that is in ant that is in elephant that is everywhere. Guest (2): Is it in the matter? Is it in the decomposed matter? Is it in the wood? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Is it in our bodies after we are dead? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are dead, "you" spirit gone but other spirit is there. Guest: But are the cords the same? Prabhupāda: There are innumerable individual spirit souls. Guest: Individual spirit soul's? Prabhupāda: You are individual, I am individual, he's . . . everyone. Guest (2): And there is not a cord spirit soul that is the same with all of them? Prabhupāda: The quality is the same, the quality is the same. Just like you are human being, I am a human being, you have got your two hands I have got my two hands, you have got legs I have got legs, but still you are different, that is individuality. Because we agreed to have two hands two legs one head that does not mean we agree on everything. Guest: But at the basis at the essence our spirit soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Is there any difference? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No. Okay. Prabhupāda: No. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: What happens when someone comes to . . . ah hear and they are caught up or having a problem in say a physical or mental plane and can't understand the spiritual plane how do you tie them into that so they can transcend the problem? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If one comes to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform then there is no more any problem bodily mentally or. Guest: But what I am, what I'm curious about is how you tie someone into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: We have got our process. Guest: It's not. Prabhupāda: We have got our process. We . . . Guest (2): A healing process? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): A healing process? Healing. *Prabhupāda: Healing. Yes it is healing process. It is healing process, just like you also heal by some psycho*-theist process similarly we also heal by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Guest: Could you say a bit about that process? Prabhupāda: Yes this chanting Hare Krishna, mantra . Just like there is a process of snakebite, have you seen a snake charmer? In India we have got still, if one is bitten by a snake he is unconscious by chanting the mantra you will gradually come to consciousness. So this is material, similarly we are spirit soul we are now—everyone of us—either psychologically, mentally or bodily, we are all diseased, all diseased. So by this chanting process he comes to his consciousness and all this material, bodily mental intellectual diseases are cured. Guest (2): It would seem that someone would have to be on a certain mind for that to be of assistance. Prabhupāda: No, we create that situation, simply by chanting. We are chanting and he joins in chanting, all our students do that. Then he becomes cured, mentally intellectually and bodily. Guest (2): See we meet people who would not do that, they seek healing from other individuals more than from themselves and what they can bring up by concentration by chanting. They seek assistance more from outside than from within by chanting and they are not used to looking within or delving within by chanting. Prabhupāda: No we have got so many students and simply by chanting they are cured. Mental, bodily and intellectually, we have so many students, you can talk any one of them. Guest: After going through the process to get their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then would the students stay in the movement as far as like at the temple, in the temple or would they go out into the community and . . . and do regular jobs and that type of thing? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many professions, he is . . . he is a Dr. of chemistry. He is doing his job but he is a Kṛṣṇa conscious and there is many professors, many workers. It is not that one has to live in the temple, no. He can live outside. But he keeps his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But within the society it is easier because association has got some influence. Guest: It's easier to stay with the discipline. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Guest (2): Do you teach ah, control over the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): In relation over the body. Prabhupāda: Yes, as we say no meat eating, no intoxicants, no illicit sex, no gambling, there are so many no's. And so many yes so they have to do that. Do's and do not's, that is control. Do this and do not do this, so this is control. Guest (2): You mentioned . . . Prabhupāda: The . . . our students do not even smoke, do not drink tea coffee nothing. They do not go to cinema, no club, no restaurant. Guest: No what? Prabhupāda: Restaurant. We have no such expenditure and probably no doctors bill. So at least we save so much expenditure. Guest (2): You said: "no illicit sex," what is permissible sex? Prabhupāda: Permissible sex means married wife. One must be married and with married wife he can have sex once in a month after the menstrual period and when the wife is pregnant no more sex life. This is control. If he wants sex life he can have another wife but not to the pregnant wife. Therefore we allow but not in your country but in India polygamy is allowed. One man can marry more than one wife but he cannot have sex life with the wife more than once in a month and that is stopped when she is pregnant. This is control of sex and . . . (indistinct) . . . against this that is illicit sex. Guest (2): Which . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Even with your wife when she is pregnant if you have sex that is illicit sex. Guest (2): Do you conceive of punishment? Prabhupāda: Punishment it will be already there automatically by nature's way . . . Guest: Are women and . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as you violate nature's law you will be punished. Suppose you are eating, if you eat a little more you will be punished. That is nature's law. If you have more sex life then you become impotent. That is nature's punishment is there . . . And if you indulge in all these prohibited things then you will never understand what is spiritual consciousness. That is the greatest punishment. If you do not understand what is spiritual life you remain as an animal, that is the greatest punishment, because animal cannot understand what is spiritual life. So in spite of getting the chance of a human form of body if we keep ourselves like animals, is it not the greatest punishment? If I cannot improve as a human being, I remain on the animal platform, is it not the greatest punishment? So if you do not follow these principles then we cannot understand what is spiritual life, that means we remain animal. Guest: Is there an endpoint to the growth process? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Is there an end point? Prabhupāda: Yes as soon as you understand God then your knowledge is perfect. If you do not understand what is God then your knowledge is imperfect. The animals cannot be educated about God, a human being can be educated what is God therefore there are so many books, literatures, scriptures in the human society so if you don't take advantage of this human life to understand God then you remain animal. Guest: Have you seen people who have understood God and who have ah . . . who have been in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that have been regressed or gone back into the other platforms? Prabhupāda: That one can go because there is relapse, you become released from disease and again there may be relapse. Guest: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Any disease, you are for the time being, being cured but again you infect so you became again diseased, that is possible, but if you keep yourself quite fit always there is no fall down. Guest: So then . . . sort of in essence the path to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is. Prabhupāda: Is to understand God. Guest: To understand God and to do what is most natural, to follow the natural laws. Prabhupāda: The essence is to know God and to love Him, that is our propaganda. The human life is meant for understanding God and love Him. Guest: I can follow easily what you're saying as far as the discipline and the path to your Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to do the what . . . what is the most natural . . . and that overeating overindulging in anything, sex . . . anything is not natural but what I don't understand is how it is decided what is most natural? *In other words if I am ah . . . if I go back to the point about sex because it is a concrete easy thing to talk about and for instance is it . . . is it just natural to have sex twice a month than once a month? It seems like the cut*-off point is where I would have problems mostly accepting what is the most natural. Prabhupāda: The . . . first of all the basic principle of understanding is that I am spirit soul. I am not this body and because I have accepted this body I have to accept so many bodily troubles . . . (truck sound) Guest: So many what? Prabhupāda: Bodily troubles. Guest: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: The treatment is required body mind, because we have got this body and mind. So my problem is why I have contacted this body and mind? Guest: Why you have? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I go to treatment for my body because I have got this body . . . but if I don't possess this body then there is no question of treatment. Guest: I missed the last bit. If you don't have this body then . . .? Prabhupāda: Our proposition is as I have already told, spirit soul is different from this body. Somehow or other the spirit soul has contacted this material body and all our troubles are due to this material body, therefore this material body is my problem. Guest: Since the spirit soul in the body are different . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . can the body come up with a disease that is completely separated from the spirit soul. In other words could someone on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness get a physical disease of their bodies? Prabhupāda: The body is subjected to physical disease, how can you avoid it? But if you know, just like two men are sitting in a car, very nice car, somehow or other the car is damaged the man who possesses the car he is most afflicted and the other man he is not afflicted. Although they are both of them are sitting in the same car, why it is? You are psychologist you can understand. Guest: Well certainly only from a physical sense, from the, the. Prabhupāda: This is physical. Guest: Yeah the . . . Prabhupāda: Both you and me are sitting in the same car. Guest: Right but even if the owner was at that time . . . if he was away from his body . . . if he was . . . Prabhupāda: No not away, even within the car both of them are within the car. Now the car is damaged the owner is afflicted, he is concerned but the friend is not concerned. What is the cause? Guest: The possession. Prabhupāda: Yes this man is absorbed in possession, "Oh my car is gone," and because he has got the sense of possession he is not affected. Therefore the body is different from the soul when he comes to the consciousness of not possession then there is no trouble. Guest: So someone who has trust in the consciousness may come down with a bodily illness but they won't be afflicted by it . . . em spiritual. Prabhupāda: Yes afflicted, suppose a man who knows perfectly well that I am not this car, "All right the car is a damaged I'll look some money, it doesn't matter." That is one thing. And another one is too much absorbed, "Oh my car is gone, my life is gone," this is the position. One who is absorbed he is more afflicted, one who is not absorbed he knows that, "I am not this body", he is not afflicted. So it is a question of consciousness, one who is too much bodily conscious he is afflicted, otherwise one who is not bodily conscious he will not be afflicted, "Oh it has come into effect, that's all . . . it doesn't matter let me do my duty Hare Krishna and chant." This is the position, it is a question of development of that consciousness. Guest: If someone comes in and they are preoccupied mentally with what would be a . . . a bad thought or something that keeps. Prabhupāda: Bad thought cannot come to him because if he is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa thought . . . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . then there is no bad thought, there is no scope of bad thought. Because you can think of one subject matter at a time so if you are 24 hours absorbed in Kṛṣṇa thoughts then there is no question of bad thoughts. Guest: So if someone comes in and admittedly when they first come in they are preoccupied by a bad thought, for say two hours. Prabhupāda: Yes that is cured. Guest: Then just by . . . by getting away from it, not by expressing the thought and getting away from it but by not expressing the thought and getting away from it? Prabhupāda: No the same thing, a man comes to our society with bad thoughts. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: But by chanting chanting chanting he becomes relieved of this burden. Guest: Oh but he doesn't talk about the bad thought to anyone in the . . . Prabhupāda: He may talk or not talk it doesn't matter but it goes away. Guest (2): One thing I don't quite understand, you, you and the people around you often seek to involve and to proselytise, strangers, new people, why is that? Prabhupāda: You also proselytise, when a mad man goes to you, you turn him into sane man. Is it not proselytising? Guest (2): Yes, if he comes to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Your people go out to other people. Prabhupāda: We are better friends, you do not go, we are better friends. You charge fees, we canvass so we are better than you. Guest (2): Do you. Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. Guest (2): Am well. Prabhupāda: Don't avoid this question. You charge, we don't charge, we go to the diseased man and canvass, so we are better man than you. Guest (2): What if he says no to you? Prabhupāda: Well anyone can say no, any canvassing. Suppose this is nice foodstuff, here is fruit the fruit man is canvassing, "Here is nice mango," that does not mean everyone will take. The mango is nice. Because one does not take that doesn't mean the mango goes bad. It is his misfortune that he could not take a nice mango. Guest (2): I was just thinking what you were just saying about charging and how our . . . Prabhupāda: No you . . . but charging of course that is your profession but we are not professional we distribute free. We distribute such exalted thing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we distribute free. Guest (2): I think it seems that there is a . . . there is a giving . . . there is something that is given by the person to you when he joins you and takes your ideas. He gives you his time, he gives you what. Prabhupāda: He gives everything. Guest (2): . . . they have. Prabhupāda: He gives everything. Guest (2): Eventually . . . Prabhupāda: Just like these boys they have given everything. So how do they give everything? We don't charge, we don't ask but they give everything. So do you think they are all fools and rascals? That they are giving everything for Kṛṣṇa. What is your idea? Guest (2): They may do what they wish if that is what they want. Prabhupāda: You, you examine each of our students they are not fools and rascals and why do they give everything for Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): They want to. Prabhupāda: Yes that is natural to give everything to Kṛṣṇa that is sane condition without this insane condition . . . just like if you take something from my table, the sane condition is if you return it . . . the sane condition . . . suppose somebody takes this box in his pocket without my knowledge he will be in tribulation, "Oh I have taken this without his knowledge what will he say," so many things but he will be cured from all this trouble when he returns it. Similarly everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything belongs to God, nothing belongs to me even this body. Therefore everything offering to Kṛṣṇa is the same condition . . . so when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they return everything what they received from Kṛṣṇa, this is sanity. Others are thieves they enjoy other's property and claiming my property. Just like, take for example your country, USA. Is it actually your country, your place? Do you think? 200 years ago it did not belong to you it belonged to the Red Indians and now you are claiming your country. Why? Maybe after 200 years it may go to others. So where is your country? Suppose we are sitting here say for half an hour or one hour does it belong to you, this room? If you claim, "now I have sat here for one hour it is my room," is that claim is all right? Guest: That is, that is all right, what still bothers me is not that the sanity is giving everything to God or giving your life to God which I . . . Prabhupāda: God has given you the life. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: God has given you the body, God has given you the mind, God has given you wealth, everything. So therefore everything belongs to God to come to this consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Yeah. I thin . . . what bothers me is that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . other consciousness is also . . . the path of giving everything to God or indeed giving everything to God or the spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: No we are talking of the philosophy. Guest: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: We're talking now. Guest: But whether Kṛṣṇa consciousness versus other consciousness in other ways of achieving the same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Actually by philosophical study you have to understand that everything belongs to God. Guest: Which is basic to the philosophy of many religions and ways of understanding God. Prabhupāda: Yes that is the original philosophy that is, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), "Everything belongs to God." We also belong to God, we are children of God therefore we have the right to use God's property but not more than what you require. Guest: But not more than. Prabhupāda: But not more than what you require. Guest: Yeah what you require. Prabhupāda: Now you're God's sons, I am God's son, he is God's son and everything God's property, so you enjoyed your father's property, I enjoy but when you encroach on my property I take more you starve or I take you starve my starve—that is irreligious. If we accept that everything belongs to God, we are sons of God every one of us, even animals, insects, birds bees trees they are all sons of God. So God's property, we are sons of God we have got the right to use but not more than what you require, then it is nice. That is God consciousness. Guest: I would certainly agree with that but again my own conflict is whether the Kṛṣṇa consciousness versus other consciousness is . . . Prabhupāda: Other consciousness is partial and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is full. Just like other consciousness is. Guest: Other consciousness partial. Prabhupāda: Just like American national consciousness but that is partial but when you speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is complete. Guest: How is it more complete than . . . than Hinduism? Prabhupāda: We are talking of God there is no Hindu or Christian. God is for everyone for Hindu Christian for everyone. God is neither Hindu nor Christian. (break) . . . and love God it doesn't matter whether you're Christian or Hindu or Muslim or this or that. Guest: (indistinct) . . . thank you for seeing us. Guest (2): Thank you for talking to us. Prabhupāda: (aside) give them prasadam . You have got your cards? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Give them some. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some? . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever you like . . . Thank you very much. Guest: Thank you. Guest (2): Thank you. Guest: Hare Krishna. (break) (pause) Prabhupāda: This psychiatric . . . I have never seen a patient cured by a scientist. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: I . . . (indistinct) . . . more than that. I think scientists are better than psychiatrists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) they do something good, psychiatrists they just take money from the fools. Prabhupāda: There are many patients who regularly attend psychiatrists. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially in this country, generally it's a married couples they take their problems so the psychiatrists they just take money from these . . . people. Devotee: Very large . . . (indistinct) . . . very expensive. Prabhupāda: So no lunch today . . . (indistinct) . . . 4 o'clock. Devotee: That strawberry, did you have the strawberry? Prabhupāda: Yes very nice. Devotee: That was nice? That will keep for a long time, we can have some more of that. Very simple. (break) (end) Arrival -- October 5, 1972, Berkeley Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . for your participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Do not take this movement as any sectari . . . (break) It is a scientific, philosophical, cultural movement. People at the present moment they have forgotten themselves, the modern civilisation is based on, on the bodily concept of life. But actually we are not this body, we are spirit soul part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. As Lord is spirit the complete whole spirit, we are part and parcel of God but we are covered by subtle and gross body or matter. As such, we have forgotten our identification and on the bodily concept of life we are thinking, "I am American, I am Indian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian." But actually we are all part and parcel of God, we have to come to that consciousness. *This consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. Unless we come to that platform there is no question of peace and prosperity. Just like a madman unless he is cured from his madness he cannot be happy there is no question of peace and prosperity. The disease must be cured. Similarly, this bodily concept of life is a material disease. So, our movement, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new hobby or something introduced new. It is very old. It was spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā 5,000 years ago and before that also this philosophy was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to the sun god and if we take that calculation it comes to some 40 millions of years ago. So it is not a new thing, it is the oldest cultural thing God consciousness. I am part and parcel of God, you are part and parcel of God. So our duty is to revive our original activity and then go back to home back to Godhead. This is the sum and substance of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and anyone can perform it, it is very easy. The preliminary method is to chant the holy name of God. You can chant if you have got any name of God you can chant that. Not that you have to chant Hare Krishna if you have got any other name you can chant. By chanting the holy name of God gradually your dirty things within the heart will be cleansed and you will see properly your constitutional position and then you will act accordingly and then your life will be happy and prosperous. This is the sum and substance of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to preach this culture all over the world not only by this chanting Hare Krishna mantra but those who are philosophers, scientists they can read our books. We have got 60 volumes of books like this to make people understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So, don’t think that it is a sentimental movement if one is very highly educated, advanced in science and philosophy they can understand this movement by reading this book. Otherwise it is very simple, chant Hare Krishna mantra and gradually you understand the whole thing. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya glories jagat guru! (Offer obeisances) Chandanācārya: If the press has any questions? Press (1): (indistinct) . . . I have a question . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning. Can I ask you what is the meaning of the chant? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Chanting means vibrating sound. God is present everywhere so when you chant the holy name of God. These vibrations, this sound vibration is God, so immediately contact with God. Press (1): Thank you. Press (2): Was your trip here a special trip or just a regular trip? Prabhupāda: No, I am going all around the world at least twice in a year. In 1967 I came here, after that several times I have came here. Press (2): You say the Kṛṣṇa was 5000 years ago, the information that I’ve received that the chant which you are using now giving the name of God and I understand the *Vedas* (airport loudspeaker) . . . (indistinct) . . . the information you give. You say it came 5000 years ago, has a man been here longer than that. Has he been practising religion longer than that? Prabhupāda: Well, it existed since millions of years. Press (2): Have they practising the religion before Hare Krishna? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Wherever there is civilised man there must be religion. Press (2): How does one judge . . . (indistinct) . . . is that correct . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: By the history, by the history, by understanding, by studying history, by studying philosophy, by studying science one can understand. One has to become very intelligent, foolish men cannot understand. But you must be very intelligent then you will understand. Press (2): I understood that you say that you are part and parcel. I don’t quite understand what you mean part and parcel of consciousness does that mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of shining particles. Similarly the sun is God and the sunshine particles are living entities. So the sunshine particles are also heat and light and the sun is also heat and light but the small molecules and particles they are very small but the sun is very big. Similarly qualitatively we are one as God is, but God is great, we are very small. Press (2): Okay then if I understand that then when a person dies or leaves hod flesh and soul then. Then he does not necessarily die? Prabhupāda: No. The soul is eternal and God is eternal. The soul is eternal but because we have contact with this material body we are changing body. Just like you change your dress, similarly the soul changes dress and because we do not know what is soul we think that this man is dead. Actually he has not died he is simply changing from one gross body to another gross body that is all. Press (2): He changes to another form at the time . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you will find 8,400,000 forms of life because there are changes from one form to another. Just like here in this meeting you are represented by different dresses. Similarly all these living entities they are represented in different forms but within the form there is spirit soul that is part and parcel of God. Press (2): The man would be interchangeable with animal, or the trees or whatever? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. According to karma , you are given the chance in a human form of body developed consciousness to understand God but if you do not understand God, if you understand dog then you become dog. Otherwise you become God. Press (2): Thank you. ( kīrtana ) (devotees repeat responsively) Leader: namas te sārasvate deve. Devotees: Prabhupāda! *Leader: gaura*-vāṇī-pracāriṇe Devotees: Prabhupāda! Leader: nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi.. Devotees: Prabhupāda! *Leader: pāścātya*-deśa-tāriṇe Devotees: Prabhupāda. Leader: (devotees repeat responsively three times) *Prabhupāda: ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to you Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Offering of obeisances) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Chandanācārya: Would you like a little prasādam ? Śrīla Prabhupāda: That's alright. Devotee: Thank you for saṅkīrtana Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Devotee: Jaya . (end) Arrival -- October 5, 1972, Berkeley Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . for your participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Do not take this movement as any sectari . . . (break) It is a scientific, philosophical, cultural movement. People at the present moment they have forgotten themselves, the modern civilisation is based on, on the bodily concept of life. But actually we are not this body, we are spirit soul part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. As Lord is spirit the complete whole spirit, we are part and parcel of God but we are covered by subtle and gross body or matter. As such, we have forgotten our identification and on the bodily concept of life we are thinking, "I am American, I am Indian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian." But actually we are all part and parcel of God, we have to come to that consciousness. *This consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. Unless we come to that platform there is no question of peace and prosperity. Just like a madman unless he is cured from his madness he cannot be happy there is no question of peace and prosperity. The disease must be cured. Similarly, this bodily concept of life is a material disease. So, our movement, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new hobby or something introduced new. It is very old. It was spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā 5,000 years ago and before that also this philosophy was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to the sun god and if we take that calculation it comes to some 40 millions of years ago. So it is not a new thing, it is the oldest cultural thing God consciousness. I am part and parcel of God, you are part and parcel of God. So our duty is to revive our original activity and then go back to home back to Godhead. This is the sum and substance of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and anyone can perform it, it is very easy. The preliminary method is to chant the holy name of God. You can chant if you have got any name of God you can chant that. Not that you have to chant Hare Krishna if you have got any other name you can chant. By chanting the holy name of God gradually your dirty things within the heart will be cleansed and you will see properly your constitutional position and then you will act accordingly and then your life will be happy and prosperous. This is the sum and substance of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to preach this culture all over the world not only by this chanting Hare Krishna mantra but those who are philosophers, scientists they can read our books. We have got 60 volumes of books like this to make people understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So, don’t think that it is a sentimental movement if one is very highly educated, advanced in science and philosophy they can understand this movement by reading this book. Otherwise it is very simple, chant Hare Krishna mantra and gradually you understand the whole thing. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya glories jagat guru! (Offer obeisances) Chandanācārya: If the press has any questions? Press (1): (indistinct) . . . I have a question . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning. Can I ask you what is the meaning of the chant? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Chanting means vibrating sound. God is present everywhere so when you chant the holy name of God. These vibrations, this sound vibration is God, so immediately contact with God. Press (1): Thank you. Press (2): Was your trip here a special trip or just a regular trip? Prabhupāda: No, I am going all around the world at least twice in a year. In 1967 I came here, after that several times I have came here. Press (2): You say the Kṛṣṇa was 5000 years ago, the information that I’ve received that the chant which you are using now giving the name of God and I understand the *Vedas* (airport loudspeaker) . . . (indistinct) . . . the information you give. You say it came 5000 years ago, has a man been here longer than that. Has he been practising religion longer than that? Prabhupāda: Well, it existed since millions of years. Press (2): Have they practising the religion before Hare Krishna? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Wherever there is civilised man there must be religion. Press (2): How does one judge . . . (indistinct) . . . is that correct . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: By the history, by the history, by understanding, by studying history, by studying philosophy, by studying science one can understand. One has to become very intelligent, foolish men cannot understand. But you must be very intelligent then you will understand. Press (2): I understood that you say that you are part and parcel. I don’t quite understand what you mean part and parcel of consciousness does that mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of shining particles. Similarly the sun is God and the sunshine particles are living entities. So the sunshine particles are also heat and light and the sun is also heat and light but the small molecules and particles they are very small but the sun is very big. Similarly qualitatively we are one as God is, but God is great, we are very small. Press (2): Okay then if I understand that then when a person dies or leaves hod flesh and soul then. Then he does not necessarily die? Prabhupāda: No. The soul is eternal and God is eternal. The soul is eternal but because we have contact with this material body we are changing body. Just like you change your dress, similarly the soul changes dress and because we do not know what is soul we think that this man is dead. Actually he has not died he is simply changing from one gross body to another gross body that is all. Press (2): He changes to another form at the time . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you will find 8,400,000 forms of life because there are changes from one form to another. Just like here in this meeting you are represented by different dresses. Similarly all these living entities they are represented in different forms but within the form there is spirit soul that is part and parcel of God. Press (2): The man would be interchangeable with animal, or the trees or whatever? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. According to karma , you are given the chance in a human form of body developed consciousness to understand God but if you do not understand God, if you understand dog then you become dog. Otherwise you become God. Press (2): Thank you. ( kīrtana ) (devotees repeat responsively) Leader: namas te sārasvate deve. Devotees: Prabhupāda! *Leader: gaura*-vāṇī-pracāriṇe Devotees: Prabhupāda! Leader: nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi.. Devotees: Prabhupāda! *Leader: pāścātya*-deśa-tāriṇe Devotees: Prabhupāda. Leader: (devotees repeat responsively three times) *Prabhupāda: ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to you Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Offering of obeisances) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Chandanācārya: Would you like a little prasādam ? Śrīla Prabhupāda: That's alright. Devotee: Thank you for saṅkīrtana Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Devotee: Jaya . (end) Conversation -- October 6, 1972, Berkeley *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . then why you are so much proud of seeing? Therefore Vedānta*-sūtra says, śāstra-cakṣuṣā we have to see through perfect book of knowledge. Not this eyes . . . so our proposition is that Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead the knowledge He has given us is perfect and if we follow this perfect knowledge then everything will be perfect. That is our position. Guest: Svāmī I have a question. You said that quoting the scriptures that in this world all governments are evil. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: You said quoting the scriptures that in this world all men being like śūdras all governments are evil. Are some governments worse than others? Is the communism. Prabhupāda: No all governments even communism. What is that? It's says the same. Guest: What about. Prabhupāda: Voting, voting, so some fools are voting, so what is the value? The process is voting but who is voting? All rascals and fools. That's all. Guest: But some parties like the Jana Sangh. Prabhupāda: No. Guest: They say they are more religious. Prabhupāda: They may say, everyone will say: "My party is very perfect," but we don't accept. Everyone can say, everyone will say that, "I am perfect." But we have got a test because at the present age the politicians are selected by votes. The public is fool and rascals so what they will select? *So therefore either communism or this capitalism, or this ism or that ism it simply requires the names of . . . the same thing that's all. Vedic culture plan is a King, the executive head should be the representative of God. He must be so perfect that he should be. Therefore a King is offered the same respect as to God. Therefore in Sanskrit language it is called naradeva —God in the human form of life, he should be so perfect. And everything is described in our, these literatures. Bhāgavata , how perfect King is working. Just like in India they say, "Ram*-raj." Because Lord Rāmacandra was a perfect King . . . so in English language also you say, "Kingdom of God," but we want kingdom of God without God. So God is perfect and anyone who follows perfect God, he also becomes perfect. So therefore if there is God consciousness in the people in general, then they can select a person nice . . . then there will be good government. Guest (2): Svāmī, if all men are like śūdras then we are all śūdras . Prabhupāda: Yes because there is no education, training. Guest: Then how can there be Svāmīs? Prabhupāda: Well he is not śūdra , he is master. Svāmī means master and śūdra means servant. Svāmī, actually Svāmī means who is master and śūdra means servant you should understand what is Svāmī and master means master of the senses. Just like we are teaching our students to become Svāmī. How? No illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat eating, no gambling. So they are being trained to become master because everyone is servant of these principles. So Svāmī does not mean śūdra , a śūdra cannot become Svāmī because śūdra is a servant. Servant means servant of the senses. Now these boys are being trained to become master they do not even smoke they do not drink tea, they do not drink coffee. At least they have become masters of these things and gradually they will become master more and more. If you can control your tongue then you can control your belly and then you control your genitals a straight line. If you cannot control your tongue how you can become master of the senses. Therefore in the śāstra it is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). "God realisation is possible when one engages his senses, especially the tongue." Now it will be surprising when you hear that by controlling the tongue we can realise God. But that is a fact. Therefore we are teaching controlling the tongue, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . The controlling business begins from the tongue. Therefore these things are prohibited. Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. And although one who is already conversant with this controlling he is not a śūdra he is a Svāmī. Guest (3): We are at the present time in a real reality in regard, spirit souls we are fragments of the Godhead of Kṛṣṇa God. Our goal in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to encourage eventually to this Godhead and at the present time we are recognisably in a state of māyā here and are being governed by the three states, three states of matter. What was the reason according to you why man has lost this perfection in the beginning? In other words it would seem to me that if in this pristine stage when we would be as it were with Kṛṣṇa why would we ever want to depart at all. Prabhupāda: It means. Guest (3): Departing and getting involved. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): In this māyā the illusory matter. Prabhupāda: It is not very difficult just like one falls victim of some disease and again by treatment he can recover from the disease and these Europeans and American boys they are becoming recovered, by the disease, illicit sex, meat eating, gambling, intoxication. So they fell victim to these similarly we have got little independence we can fall down and we can raise ourselves up, become elevated. So it is to be understood that as by desiring to be elevated we become free from all these unwanted things, similarly by desiring we fell down. And by desiring I can elevate similarly, so it is to be understood that by desiring I fell down. So desire is there, so I can fall down, I can raise myself and that requires association. So your question is how we fell down? Because you desired it. Now when I desired, how I desired? Then you have to trace out the whole history but you are eternal when it has begun it is very difficult to find but it is a fact because you desired to Lord it over the material nature we have fallen down. Here everyone is trying to Lord it over that is the tendency, this is material life. *I'm trying to Lord it over, you're trying also to Lord it over then there is competition, then fight. There is no submission. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's instruction He says: "You nonsense first of all submit," sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja ( BG 18.66). That is the beginning because everyone is puffed up he has no submission. So that is the difficulty. We become puffed up we want to imitate God. Now one so and so is denying God we are thinking that by inventing something we are saying: "What is the use of God?" What the scientists say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He's a scientist. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They said God didn't create the universe. Scientists discovered the physical rules governing these laws of motion of the planetary motions and therefore they say God is not necessary to ah. To investigate for the wellbeing of the human being so therefore God is not necessary. Prabhupāda: Is that a very scientific proposal? God created now we are trying to know the laws therefore there is no necessity of God. Is that very sound proposal? What do you think? Guest (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes thank you. It is called demoniac love . . . yes? Guest (4): Is it possible for a member of the śūdra class . . . caste to become a brāhmin ? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Just like any ordinary man can be educated and he can become a doctor or a scientist or a Doctor of philosophy. Guest (4): So there is a kind of democratisation. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, guṇa*-karma, karma means by action. Just like you are educated nicely as a chemist when you act as a chemist then you are well educated. If you simply know chemistry and do not act then you are not a chemist. *So one should be trained up and at the same time will act then we will accept. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , your question, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ born in sinful life, pāpa-yonayaḥ lower class, low born pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo śūdrās tathāvaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Even women, śūdras , vaiśyas if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he goes. *So there is no bar, there is no hindrance everyone can take it up it is open to everyone. So everyone should be given the chance to become a perfect brāhmin —that is brahminical culture—that is Vedic culture. Because the human life is a chance to understand God in the lower animal life there is no such chance. A dog cannot be educated to understand God but a man can be. So if this human life is misused in the matter of animal propensities then it is a great loss. His propensities for understanding God should be aroused that is real education, āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām. Eating sleeping sexual life and defence this is common to the animals and the human beings. This special significance of human life that he can understand God, the animal cannot. So if a human being is not given chance to understand God then he remains animal. So there is no such chance in the University education and there is no department of knowledge to understand God. You know so. Guest (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda can you explain how we can become more Kṛṣṇa conscious? Without wearing a dhoti and shaving our heads? Prabhupāda: Well, dhotis these are not very important things. Guest (5): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are taking it I never said that you take dhoti . You can remain in your coat and pants that . . . what is that? But naturally they have simplified the methodology they can lie down on the floor they don't require any furniture they don't require any costly dress. Any dress will satisfy them any simple food will satisfy them. The process is we should decrease our artificial material necessities of life and save time to understand God that is the value of life. By gorgeously dressing you do not become a big man by knowledge you become a big man. Guest (6): Svāmī, in the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a governing board committee and you have as the Svāmī are directing this board and presidents of temples. Do you think this is a good organisation for a country? Prabhupāda: What bad you think? What is the bad in it? Guest (6): (laughs) Prabhupāda: If it is not bad then it is good. Guest (6): So there should be a Svāmī rather than a president as head of the Centre? Prabhupāda: Well, I explained Svāmī means the master of the senses. If one becomes president and remains a servant of the senses what is the value? What is the value? He may become president to the fools but he is a servant of the senses that's all. So my request is that you are all leading personalities of the society kindly try to understand the value of our movement and cooperate that is the. It is a very good scientific movement authorised and very simple also . . . And even a child can take part in it. Actually when we chant and dance in our temple many small children about three or four years, they also do it. They also offer obeisances, offer flowers and that is not going in vain. There from the very beginning of their life they are getting the association of good father, mother, devotees they are not eating anything which is prohibited. So it is acceptable even by a child. There is no need of having advanced education anyone can, striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyās. Anyone. Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, these are uncivilised. Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā (BG 9.33) and what to speak of brāhmins those whose background is pious life. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā , anyone can take up, there is no difficulty. *Guest (7): Svāmī, I understand that in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgwat that there is a part of it called the Uddhava-gītā which is supposed to be the essence of it. Can you tell us a little bit about that thing? *Prabhupāda: Brahmā was talking with Kṛṣṇa as Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa was replying. Similarly Uddhava was asking and Kṛṣṇa was replying. Therefore that portion of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is called Uddhava-gītā and this portion of Mahābhārata is called Arjuna-gītā. Gītā means song so the song sung by the Supreme Lord. So the Supreme Lord was teaching Uddhava how to execute devotional service. *That is pure, here in the Arjuna*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is teachings so many things, karma , jñāna , yoga and at last bhakti also but in Uddhava-gītā there is simply instruction of devotion. There is no other affair, karma , jñāna , yoga . Karma means fruitive activities as we are ordinarily engaged, we work and get some remuneration that is called karma . Jñāna means when one understand that what I'm getting by this process and working and getting so many benefits. What is the actual ultimate goal of my life? That is jñāna . Karma jñāna and yoga —is a little higher, the find out the absolute truth and bhakti means to know the absolute truth and our relationship with Him and actually be engaged in His service that is called bhakti . . . yes? *Guest (8): Svāmī . . . the 14*-year-old boy Guru Mahārāji. Prabhupāda: Well I do not . . . (indistinct) . . . he can understand I do not. Guest (8): Can I ask you a question. Prabhupāda: So far that I have heard he says that there is no need of books. So you are all educationists without books what is his knowledge? He does not recognise books, what does he say? Devotee: He says: "You can do away with books." Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do away with books. So you can understand his value. There is no use of arguing. If somebody of you says that, "I have never attended school or college, I am now a scientist." So would it be appropriate? *Śāstra*-cakṣusā , knowledge has to be received through books but the books must be perfect but you cannot say that, "Without books I have become perfect." That is not possible. Guest (8): He claims to be an avatāra . Prabhupāda: We you can also refute that, that is. But who is accepting it. What is the meaning of avatāra , do you know? Guest (8): I'm asking you a question. Prabhupāda: If you are asking then he is a fool. That's my . . . Devotee: (laughs) Guest (9): Do you consider yourself an interpreter of scriptures rather than a source of new revelations? Prabhupāda: No I'm not an interpreter of God given revelations I'm speaking as it is said that's all. Guest (9): How? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that he is God. *"I am the origin of everything." Then the Vedānta*-sūtra says that, "the absolute truth means the origin of everything." So . . . and Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the origin of everything by great stalwarts. Brahmā in the Brahma-saṁhitā he says: "The cause of all causes." So we have to follow these authoritative statements in the śāstra . . . (indistinct) Guest (10): So . . . (indistinct) . . . have been a Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without Lord Caitanya? *Prabhupāda: Yes Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was there since the 5,000 years when Kṛṣṇa appeared. In the battlefield of Kurukṣetra where he instructed Bhagavad*-gītā . Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it very nicely. Just like we have introduced this movement in your country it does not mean that it did not exist before. It was existing . . . so is there any other question? Yes? Guest (11): Do you see the Kṛṣṇa movement coming out in any different form in Western culture? As it was in India . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No it is not different form. The form is the same Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "You give up all other engagements and just surrender unto Me." These people are taking that principle, they are giving up all other engagements and surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, this is not nothing new it is the same old story. *Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). "You always think of me," man-manā , "you become my devotee," mad-bhakto, mad-yājī , "you worship me," and you offer your obeisances unto me. So we are teaching this point the same thing. We always think of Kṛṣṇa, They are doing that. And they are worshipping Kṛṣṇa in the temple. You have seen our temple in San Francisco? We have got a temple. So many temples, in Los Angeles. Everywhere we will be very much pleased to see our temple activities. So they are becoming devotees, they are worshipping, they are offering obeisances so where is the new thing? It is all ordered by Kṛṣṇa, there is nothing. We are doing that and we are preaching that, there is no difference between our preaching and this, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere ṛṣi . We have to do first of all then we can preach otherwise what is the meaning of preaching? Guest (12): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how big is your movement and how fast is it growing? *Prabhupāda: That you can calculate. I came here in nineteen hundred and sixty*-five then I started this movement. In one year I could not do anything, I had no place. I started this movement in nineteen hundred and sixty-six in July. Then I came ill then I returned back in 1967 June. Then again I came back in 1968. So we are trying to push on this movement we have got over 100 branches all over the world and many thousands of disciples like these dedicated. We have published about 20 books like this and we are selling books, on the sales proceeds we are living. We have no other income. All our expenditure throughout the whole society—at least $70,000 per month. And these are the samples of the students you can talk with them, you can see. There is no hide and seek, so you can judge . . . Host: Thank you very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna. (Sound of rearranging the furniture) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh yes, chant . . . (indistinct) . . . chanting. (laughs) Chant Hare Krishna. You have no karatālas ? There please chant with the clapping. Devotee: *Prabhupāda: ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to Śrī Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga. Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Offering of obeisances) *Chandanācārya: His Divine Grace is going to be speaking again tomorrow night in San Francisco at the "Hall of Flowers" at 8 pm. Golden gate park, 9th Avenue . . . (indistinct) . . . Sunday night here in Berkeley at the Martin Luther King Auditorium 7.30 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . you're all welcome. And Saturday and Sunday morning at our temple in San Francisco at 7 am there will be Bhāgavata class. Teachings from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Hare Krishna (break) (end) Conversation -- October 6, 1972, Berkeley *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . then why you are so much proud of seeing? Therefore Vedānta*-sūtra says, śāstra-cakṣuṣā we have to see through perfect book of knowledge. Not this eyes . . . so our proposition is that Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead the knowledge He has given us is perfect and if we follow this perfect knowledge then everything will be perfect. That is our position. Guest: Svāmī I have a question. You said that quoting the scriptures that in this world all governments are evil. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: You said quoting the scriptures that in this world all men being like śūdras all governments are evil. Are some governments worse than others? Is the communism. Prabhupāda: No all governments even communism. What is that? It's says the same. Guest: What about. Prabhupāda: Voting, voting, so some fools are voting, so what is the value? The process is voting but who is voting? All rascals and fools. That's all. Guest: But some parties like the Jana Sangh. Prabhupāda: No. Guest: They say they are more religious. Prabhupāda: They may say, everyone will say: "My party is very perfect," but we don't accept. Everyone can say, everyone will say that, "I am perfect." But we have got a test because at the present age the politicians are selected by votes. The public is fool and rascals so what they will select? *So therefore either communism or this capitalism, or this ism or that ism it simply requires the names of . . . the same thing that's all. Vedic culture plan is a King, the executive head should be the representative of God. He must be so perfect that he should be. Therefore a King is offered the same respect as to God. Therefore in Sanskrit language it is called naradeva —God in the human form of life, he should be so perfect. And everything is described in our, these literatures. Bhāgavata , how perfect King is working. Just like in India they say, "Ram*-raj." Because Lord Rāmacandra was a perfect King . . . so in English language also you say, "Kingdom of God," but we want kingdom of God without God. So God is perfect and anyone who follows perfect God, he also becomes perfect. So therefore if there is God consciousness in the people in general, then they can select a person nice . . . then there will be good government. Guest (2): Svāmī, if all men are like śūdras then we are all śūdras . Prabhupāda: Yes because there is no education, training. Guest: Then how can there be Svāmīs? Prabhupāda: Well he is not śūdra , he is master. Svāmī means master and śūdra means servant. Svāmī, actually Svāmī means who is master and śūdra means servant you should understand what is Svāmī and master means master of the senses. Just like we are teaching our students to become Svāmī. How? No illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat eating, no gambling. So they are being trained to become master because everyone is servant of these principles. So Svāmī does not mean śūdra , a śūdra cannot become Svāmī because śūdra is a servant. Servant means servant of the senses. Now these boys are being trained to become master they do not even smoke they do not drink tea, they do not drink coffee. At least they have become masters of these things and gradually they will become master more and more. If you can control your tongue then you can control your belly and then you control your genitals a straight line. If you cannot control your tongue how you can become master of the senses. Therefore in the śāstra it is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). "God realisation is possible when one engages his senses, especially the tongue." Now it will be surprising when you hear that by controlling the tongue we can realise God. But that is a fact. Therefore we are teaching controlling the tongue, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . The controlling business begins from the tongue. Therefore these things are prohibited. Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. And although one who is already conversant with this controlling he is not a śūdra he is a Svāmī. Guest (3): We are at the present time in a real reality in regard, spirit souls we are fragments of the Godhead of Kṛṣṇa God. Our goal in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to encourage eventually to this Godhead and at the present time we are recognisably in a state of māyā here and are being governed by the three states, three states of matter. What was the reason according to you why man has lost this perfection in the beginning? In other words it would seem to me that if in this pristine stage when we would be as it were with Kṛṣṇa why would we ever want to depart at all. Prabhupāda: It means. Guest (3): Departing and getting involved. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): In this māyā the illusory matter. Prabhupāda: It is not very difficult just like one falls victim of some disease and again by treatment he can recover from the disease and these Europeans and American boys they are becoming recovered, by the disease, illicit sex, meat eating, gambling, intoxication. So they fell victim to these similarly we have got little independence we can fall down and we can raise ourselves up, become elevated. So it is to be understood that as by desiring to be elevated we become free from all these unwanted things, similarly by desiring we fell down. And by desiring I can elevate similarly, so it is to be understood that by desiring I fell down. So desire is there, so I can fall down, I can raise myself and that requires association. So your question is how we fell down? Because you desired it. Now when I desired, how I desired? Then you have to trace out the whole history but you are eternal when it has begun it is very difficult to find but it is a fact because you desired to Lord it over the material nature we have fallen down. Here everyone is trying to Lord it over that is the tendency, this is material life. *I'm trying to Lord it over, you're trying also to Lord it over then there is competition, then fight. There is no submission. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's instruction He says: "You nonsense first of all submit," sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja ( BG 18.66). That is the beginning because everyone is puffed up he has no submission. So that is the difficulty. We become puffed up we want to imitate God. Now one so and so is denying God we are thinking that by inventing something we are saying: "What is the use of God?" What the scientists say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He's a scientist. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They said God didn't create the universe. Scientists discovered the physical rules governing these laws of motion of the planetary motions and therefore they say God is not necessary to ah. To investigate for the wellbeing of the human being so therefore God is not necessary. Prabhupāda: Is that a very scientific proposal? God created now we are trying to know the laws therefore there is no necessity of God. Is that very sound proposal? What do you think? Guest (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes thank you. It is called demoniac love . . . yes? Guest (4): Is it possible for a member of the śūdra class . . . caste to become a brāhmin ? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Just like any ordinary man can be educated and he can become a doctor or a scientist or a Doctor of philosophy. Guest (4): So there is a kind of democratisation. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, guṇa*-karma, karma means by action. Just like you are educated nicely as a chemist when you act as a chemist then you are well educated. If you simply know chemistry and do not act then you are not a chemist. *So one should be trained up and at the same time will act then we will accept. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , your question, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ born in sinful life, pāpa-yonayaḥ lower class, low born pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo śūdrās tathāvaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Even women, śūdras , vaiśyas if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he goes. *So there is no bar, there is no hindrance everyone can take it up it is open to everyone. So everyone should be given the chance to become a perfect brāhmin —that is brahminical culture—that is Vedic culture. Because the human life is a chance to understand God in the lower animal life there is no such chance. A dog cannot be educated to understand God but a man can be. So if this human life is misused in the matter of animal propensities then it is a great loss. His propensities for understanding God should be aroused that is real education, āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām. Eating sleeping sexual life and defence this is common to the animals and the human beings. This special significance of human life that he can understand God, the animal cannot. So if a human being is not given chance to understand God then he remains animal. So there is no such chance in the University education and there is no department of knowledge to understand God. You know so. Guest (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda can you explain how we can become more Kṛṣṇa conscious? Without wearing a dhoti and shaving our heads? Prabhupāda: Well, dhotis these are not very important things. Guest (5): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are taking it I never said that you take dhoti . You can remain in your coat and pants that . . . what is that? But naturally they have simplified the methodology they can lie down on the floor they don't require any furniture they don't require any costly dress. Any dress will satisfy them any simple food will satisfy them. The process is we should decrease our artificial material necessities of life and save time to understand God that is the value of life. By gorgeously dressing you do not become a big man by knowledge you become a big man. Guest (6): Svāmī, in the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a governing board committee and you have as the Svāmī are directing this board and presidents of temples. Do you think this is a good organisation for a country? Prabhupāda: What bad you think? What is the bad in it? Guest (6): (laughs) Prabhupāda: If it is not bad then it is good. Guest (6): So there should be a Svāmī rather than a president as head of the Centre? Prabhupāda: Well, I explained Svāmī means the master of the senses. If one becomes president and remains a servant of the senses what is the value? What is the value? He may become president to the fools but he is a servant of the senses that's all. So my request is that you are all leading personalities of the society kindly try to understand the value of our movement and cooperate that is the. It is a very good scientific movement authorised and very simple also . . . And even a child can take part in it. Actually when we chant and dance in our temple many small children about three or four years, they also do it. They also offer obeisances, offer flowers and that is not going in vain. There from the very beginning of their life they are getting the association of good father, mother, devotees they are not eating anything which is prohibited. So it is acceptable even by a child. There is no need of having advanced education anyone can, striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyās. Anyone. Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, these are uncivilised. Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā (BG 9.33) and what to speak of brāhmins those whose background is pious life. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā , anyone can take up, there is no difficulty. *Guest (7): Svāmī, I understand that in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgwat that there is a part of it called the Uddhava-gītā which is supposed to be the essence of it. Can you tell us a little bit about that thing? *Prabhupāda: Brahmā was talking with Kṛṣṇa as Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa was replying. Similarly Uddhava was asking and Kṛṣṇa was replying. Therefore that portion of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is called Uddhava-gītā and this portion of Mahābhārata is called Arjuna-gītā. Gītā means song so the song sung by the Supreme Lord. So the Supreme Lord was teaching Uddhava how to execute devotional service. *That is pure, here in the Arjuna*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is teachings so many things, karma , jñāna , yoga and at last bhakti also but in Uddhava-gītā there is simply instruction of devotion. There is no other affair, karma , jñāna , yoga . Karma means fruitive activities as we are ordinarily engaged, we work and get some remuneration that is called karma . Jñāna means when one understand that what I'm getting by this process and working and getting so many benefits. What is the actual ultimate goal of my life? That is jñāna . Karma jñāna and yoga —is a little higher, the find out the absolute truth and bhakti means to know the absolute truth and our relationship with Him and actually be engaged in His service that is called bhakti . . . yes? *Guest (8): Svāmī . . . the 14*-year-old boy Guru Mahārāji. Prabhupāda: Well I do not . . . (indistinct) . . . he can understand I do not. Guest (8): Can I ask you a question. Prabhupāda: So far that I have heard he says that there is no need of books. So you are all educationists without books what is his knowledge? He does not recognise books, what does he say? Devotee: He says: "You can do away with books." Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do away with books. So you can understand his value. There is no use of arguing. If somebody of you says that, "I have never attended school or college, I am now a scientist." So would it be appropriate? *Śāstra*-cakṣusā , knowledge has to be received through books but the books must be perfect but you cannot say that, "Without books I have become perfect." That is not possible. Guest (8): He claims to be an avatāra . Prabhupāda: We you can also refute that, that is. But who is accepting it. What is the meaning of avatāra , do you know? Guest (8): I'm asking you a question. Prabhupāda: If you are asking then he is a fool. That's my . . . Devotee: (laughs) Guest (9): Do you consider yourself an interpreter of scriptures rather than a source of new revelations? Prabhupāda: No I'm not an interpreter of God given revelations I'm speaking as it is said that's all. Guest (9): How? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that he is God. *"I am the origin of everything." Then the Vedānta*-sūtra says that, "the absolute truth means the origin of everything." So . . . and Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the origin of everything by great stalwarts. Brahmā in the Brahma-saṁhitā he says: "The cause of all causes." So we have to follow these authoritative statements in the śāstra . . . (indistinct) Guest (10): So . . . (indistinct) . . . have been a Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without Lord Caitanya? *Prabhupāda: Yes Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was there since the 5,000 years when Kṛṣṇa appeared. In the battlefield of Kurukṣetra where he instructed Bhagavad*-gītā . Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it very nicely. Just like we have introduced this movement in your country it does not mean that it did not exist before. It was existing . . . so is there any other question? Yes? Guest (11): Do you see the Kṛṣṇa movement coming out in any different form in Western culture? As it was in India . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No it is not different form. The form is the same Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "You give up all other engagements and just surrender unto Me." These people are taking that principle, they are giving up all other engagements and surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, this is not nothing new it is the same old story. *Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). "You always think of me," man-manā , "you become my devotee," mad-bhakto, mad-yājī , "you worship me," and you offer your obeisances unto me. So we are teaching this point the same thing. We always think of Kṛṣṇa, They are doing that. And they are worshipping Kṛṣṇa in the temple. You have seen our temple in San Francisco? We have got a temple. So many temples, in Los Angeles. Everywhere we will be very much pleased to see our temple activities. So they are becoming devotees, they are worshipping, they are offering obeisances so where is the new thing? It is all ordered by Kṛṣṇa, there is nothing. We are doing that and we are preaching that, there is no difference between our preaching and this, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere ṛṣi . We have to do first of all then we can preach otherwise what is the meaning of preaching? Guest (12): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how big is your movement and how fast is it growing? *Prabhupāda: That you can calculate. I came here in nineteen hundred and sixty*-five then I started this movement. In one year I could not do anything, I had no place. I started this movement in nineteen hundred and sixty-six in July. Then I came ill then I returned back in 1967 June. Then again I came back in 1968. So we are trying to push on this movement we have got over 100 branches all over the world and many thousands of disciples like these dedicated. We have published about 20 books like this and we are selling books, on the sales proceeds we are living. We have no other income. All our expenditure throughout the whole society—at least $70,000 per month. And these are the samples of the students you can talk with them, you can see. There is no hide and seek, so you can judge . . . Host: Thank you very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna. (Sound of rearranging the furniture) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh yes, chant . . . (indistinct) . . . chanting. (laughs) Chant Hare Krishna. You have no karatālas ? There please chant with the clapping. Devotee: *Prabhupāda: ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to Śrī Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga. Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Offering of obeisances) *Chandanācārya: His Divine Grace is going to be speaking again tomorrow night in San Francisco at the "Hall of Flowers" at 8 pm. Golden gate park, 9th Avenue . . . (indistinct) . . . Sunday night here in Berkeley at the Martin Luther King Auditorium 7.30 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . you're all welcome. And Saturday and Sunday morning at our temple in San Francisco at 7 am there will be Bhāgavata class. Teachings from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Hare Krishna (break) (end) Room Conversation with Kenneth Keating, U.S. Ambassador to India -- October 14, 1972, New Delhi Prabhupāda: ...body, and the body is considered as the dress, and the person who is dressed, that is within. Ambassador Keating: Both the human and the animals? Prabhupāda: Just so. Spirit soul individual. He is passing through the evolutionary process. Evolutionary process means as he is desiring, nature is supplying a particular type of body. Mrs. Keating: That's very interesting. I believe in the transmigration of the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a fact. Mrs. Keating: It's very interesting. *Prabhupāda: It is a fact. Just like this child is transmigrating from one body, one kind of body to another body. So in the same way, when I give up this body I transmigrate to another body. This is the science. Unfortunately, there is no university, no education, no culture of this great science. Therefore according to Bhāgavatam, the knowledge is imperfect. The knowledge which are imparting from universities, they are not perfect knowledge. And this human form of body is the opportunity to understand the position of the soul and how he is transmigrating from one body to another, what is happening next. In this way, in this human form of body, we can understand this science, science of soul. Unfortunately, no education is there to understand this science. So in other words, it may be taken that the modern civilization is killing the prerogative of the human being. He has got a chance to understand himself and to stop. He can stop this repetition of birth and death. He can remain in a spiritual form in the spiritual kingdom or with God, but these things are unknown to him, because there is no discussion in any university or any institution of knowledge. Although the Vedic literature gives us ample information of this*-in the the Bhagavad-gītā, that is the preliminary study of all Vedic literature-but there is no chance for the people to understand. This is the defect of the modern civilization. Therefore it is necessary. And actually, because there is no sufficient knowledge of the position, I see the American boys and girls, although they are coming out very rich and respectable family, they are turning to hippies. In spite of your arrangement for very big, big university, they are becoming frustrated. They are no longer satisfied to live materially opulent like their fathers and grandfathers. In other countries also, the same symptoms are there. Just like in India, the Naxalites. So that is another form of confusion. In your country the confusion state is a different kind. Another type is another confusion. In China also there is another type of confusion. In Russia also there is another type of confusion. So the present position of the human society is very dangerous because everyone is feeling dissatisfaction for confusion. Ambassador: Any way how to make any progress, or have you any representation, for instance, in Russia? Prabhupāda: Russia... Last time when I went to Europe I visited Russia. I was invited by one Professor Kotovsky. Perhaps you know him. Ambassador: No, I don't. Prabhupāda: Ah. A very nice gentleman. Indology. He is charge of the Indological department. Russia has got very good respect for Indian culture. Ambassador: Yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: They have very good respect. So that.... [break] Ambassador: ...have much, they don't believe in God. Prabhupāda: They do not know the (indistinct). Mrs. Keating: Do you have many Indian followers? Many Indian followers as well as foreign? Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so far Indians are concerned, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mrs. Keating: May I ask the significance of the markings? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is a sign that we are Vaiṣṇava, devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Ambassador: You all have that. Mrs. Keating: And the bag, is that, is that... Prabhupāda: That is our chanting. Mrs. Keating: Oh. Prabhupāda: We are chanting always the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. These have got special significance because Kṛṣṇa is absolute. There is no difference between Him and His name. Here, just like this milk substance and the milk name is different. If I want to take milk, simply if I go on chanting "milk" and "milk," that will not satisfy. I must have the substance milk. But in the spiritual world the Absolute has no differentiation between His name, ...between His name, between His quality, form, entourage. They are the same. So this chanting of holy name means that directly associating with Kṛṣṇa. Directly associating with Kṛṣṇa. Ambassador: It's a constant reminder to yourselves of the... Prabhupāda: ...of my relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is it. Ambassador: Oh, that's very... I'm very much impressed with the sincerity of these American... Prabhupāda: As soon as one understands this science, he would accept immediately. Śyāmasundara: The one thing that impresses us and causes us to be sincere is that we recognize Kṛṣṇa consciousness not on a sentimental level but philosophically, and because it's very practical. It's not only the philosophy is there but also the practice of the philosophy. So we realize the results of the philosophy, actually, in our lives. So this convinces us absolutely, because the philosophy works. There's no flaw. Guru dāsa: Śyāmasundara was..., had a scholarship to big college for philosophy, and he was studying philosophical sciences, but he could not apply them. This was the reason for his frustration, searching. Now we found something we can apply in our practical everyday life. And not only ourselves, but people who, having families in the United States, etc., they wanted to apply philosophy. And that's the strength of this movement. We can apply it. Ambassador: I sort of forgot..., I don't know what I asked you, where you joined the movement. Devotee: In California. Ambassador: In California. In uh...? Devotee: Los Angeles, California. Ambassador: Los Angeles. Devotee: I met the devotees there about three years ago. Ambassador: Ahah. Devotee: ...and stayed in the... Prabhupāda: He was in the Navy of your country. Ambassador: Oh, he was in the Navy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: Isn't that interesting. Śyāmasundara: We've got a lot of Vietnam veterans too, join up. Ambassador: Really. *Śyāmasundara: One boy in London, he was on his way back from Vietnam, and he was completely shattered, and he found refuge in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He was a machine*-gunner. Ambassador: Where are you living? Śyāmasundara: Well, we've been living in London last two years. Ambassador: But here you're all living in the Delhi area, but you're going down to... What's the name of that place south of here? Guru dāsa: Vṛndāvana? Ambassador: Yeah. Guru dāsa: We went. Ambassador: Oh, you went? Guru dāsa: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Where? Guru dāsa: They inquired about our Vṛndāvana trip. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: That's where Kṛṣṇa was born. Ambassador: Oh. Mrs. Keating: Where is that? Ambassador: Ninety miles south of here. Prabhupāda: Yes, ninety miles. Guru dāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke to the Russians that the principle, our philosophy is the same, and that's service. You are serving Lenin and we are serving Kṛṣṇa. So by expounding upon the philosophy, then when you see that it's more intelligent to put his service toward God than one man. Like that. Prabhupāda: Our, this is a fact, that everyone is serving somebody superior. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nobody can say that I am not serving anybody. Is it possible? Ambassador: You're serving God. Prabhupāda: I am serving, you are serving your state. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone is serving. Nobody can say that I am not serving anybody. It is not possible. Mrs. Keating: But we serve God first. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mrs. Keating: We serve God first. Prabhupāda: God or anything, we have to serve. Mrs. Keating: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is our constitutional position. Just like eating and drinking. You may eat something, I may eat something, but eating is essential. You cannot say that I don't eat. That is not possible. Eating, sleeping, mating, defending*-these are the bodily necessities. Similarly, the soul's necessity is to serve someone. Either you serve your country or your society or your family or your community, or at least if you nothing to serve, then you keep a dog and serve it. (laughter) Mrs. Keating: Or what? Śyāmasundara: A dog. Mrs. Keating: Oh, a dog, yeah. Prabhupāda: Therefore, the conclusion is that I have to serve. This is our position. Do you admit? Mrs. Keating: Yes. Prabhupāda: Suppose I say that I don't serve. That is not possible. That being our constitutional position then, just like my finger, it is serving, always, sometimes doing like that, sometimes doing like that, sometimes doing like that. The finger's business is to serve. As part and parcel of my body, the finger's business is to serve the whole body. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Our essential business is to serve God. How do you find this argument? Do you refute this argument? Mrs. Keating: You serve and you share. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mrs. Keating: You serve... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Keating: ...and you share. Prabhupāda: Yes. By serving I share. Just like this milk. The hand helps me, brings it here. I drink, and as soon I drank, the benefit is shared by all the parts of body. Is it not? Ambassador: That's true. Prabhupāda: You do not require to pass the milk through the finger, then with the toes. No. Simply put the tea, tea or milk, within, and every part of the body is satisfied. Just like you pour water in the root of the tree. The energy immediately, I mean to say, distributed to the leaves, to the tree, to the flowers, to the fruits, everything, immediately. Similarly, there must be something which is the root of everything. That is God. The Vedānta philosophy says God means the origin, the source of everything. That is God. Now you can imagine how that source should be. That is also explained. But God, or the Absolute Truth, is that, is the original source of everything. Ambassador: Are you acquainted with Swami Ranganathanandaji? You have met him? Prabhupāda: I am not very much well known to him, but sometimes I met him. Ambassador: He was in here, and I asked him the definition, his definition of God, and he described, he thought a minute and said, "Well, I would say God in the thread which links one good person to another.'' I thought that was an interesting definition. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ambassador: I thought that was a very interesting definition. *Prabhupāda: No. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Ambassador: Hm. *Prabhupāda: Sūtre maṇi*-gaṇā iva. Just like you have got pearl necklace, and if it is woven in a thread. So all the pearls, they are resting on that thread. There is no question of good or bad. Everything is resting in God. There is no question of good or bad. Not that all good men simply rest on that thread. Whatever we see within our experience, everything is resting on God. There is another verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: [Bg. 9.4] "In the impersonal form, I am spread all over the manifestation, cosmic manifestation, and everything is resting on Me, but it is not necessarily I am in everything.'' That is the statement there. The definition of God, first of all, if you take this definition, as the root of everything, as the source of everything, however you like. It is the definition given by the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] the origin or birth or emanation of everything. Now you take anything and find out where is the original cause, then you come to God. Take anything on this table. Your self, your body. Everything you take, if you go on searching, searching, searching, what is, where is the origin, then you come to God. That is the perfect definition of God, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] the origin or source of everything. What do you think? Ambassador: Oh, I'm very impressed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: The last... *Prabhupāda: This is the right... Another definition is God, God is all*-attractive. Now, if you try to understand what is this attractiveness, just like your American country is very opulent, very attractive. If a man is very rich in the society, he is attractive. Then if a man is very strong, then he is attractive. If a man is very famous, he is attractive. If a man-man or woman-if a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. If a man is in the renounced order, he is attractive. If a man is very wise, he is attractive. These six features are attractive features. Now, these attractive features, every one of us have to some extent. Just like you are ambassador, representative of USA, so you are attractive. So this attractiveness you have got. Sometimes I have also got. Somebody comes to me, "Let me see this Swami speak," you see. So this attractiveness everyone possesses. But God means who has got all the attractiveness in full. That is God. You may be very rich, but you cannot say that "I am the richest person in the world." That is not possible. But God can say "I am the richest person in the whole creation." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He says, "I am the proprietor of everything.'' Just like in America, before the Europeans migrated to America, the land was there. It belonged to somebody. Now you are claiming you are proprietor. Say after five hundred years or something somebody may come. The land is there, we come here for the time being and claim "It is my property.'' But actually who is the proprietor? Actually God is the proprietor. Therefore anything produced out of the land, that is also property of God. Just like if you have got a gold mine in your country. So I am not.... India will not go to claim that "It is my property." It is your property, because it is produced with your land. So if the whole land, whole sky, whole air, whole light, everything belongs to God, then where is your proprietorship? It is stated, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ buddhiḥ mano eva [Bg. 7.4]. Now, nobody can say "The sky is my property," but there must be some proprietor of the sky. What do you think? If everything has got a proprietor, everything is made of these five elements-sky, water, air, earth.... Śyāmasundara: Fire. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Fire. Prabhupāda: Fire, mind, intelligence, ego. These eight elements. Kṛṣṇa says that "They are my energies." The things which are made by Kṛṣṇa's energy, how you can claim your property? Suppose a carpenter comes, you give him money to prepare some chair. The money is your energy. Now when the chair is prepared, he cannot claim that "I have prepared this chair. It is my property." No. It has been made with my energy; *therefore it is my property. So if you make analysis of this whole cosmic situation you will find that everything is made out of the energy of God. Then how you can claim that "I am proprietor"? This is false. This is called māyā. Just like we have seen in Calcutta when there was a (indistinct) during the transition state. Britishers are going on. There was a great Hindu*-Muslim riot. Now they fought, Hindus and Muslims, and they died. After death, they're lying piles of dead body. No more Hindu and Muslim. It is simply lump of matter. But because they got a type of body, a type of mental situation, consciousness, they fought with one another, and then after death, no more claiming "Hindu" and "Muslim." This is called illusion. "I am American,'' "I am Indian,'' "I am Hindu,'' "I am Muslim,'' "I am this,'' "I am that''-these are all designation. Really what I am? I am pure soul, part and parcel of God. That is my identity. So people should be taught this science. As soon as one understands his constitutional position, his actual situation, then he says, "Oh, I am not this. I was struggling so hard under some misidentification." Ambassador: Is there a movement to get this philosophy or science propagated in the colleges? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are trying, but we... Ambassador: That's your program. *Prabhupāda: ...we have no patronization, so whatever I have done, single*-handed, and these boys help me a little. I did not get any help, either from my government or your government. But it is such a great science, such a great philosophy. Śyāmasundara: They're starting to appreciate it. Many of the universities we have a course, in America. Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct). Ambassador: You do have a course. Śyāmasundara: Yes, Berkeley, Southern California. Prabhupāda: We have got books. I have brought along books for you. Ambassador: Oh! Oh! Prabhupāda: Big, big books. Dozens of books like that. Here is another book. Mrs. Keating: Now I know why I feel at one with nature, because I love the land very much too, and the land belongs to God. Now I feel at one with the land. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mrs. Keating: That's why I feel at one with the land. Because the land belongs to God. Prabhupāda: No. All lands belong to God. Mrs. Keating: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why do you think particular land? Ambassador: She worships the land. Mrs. Keating: I feel at one with... I feel, I felt an affinity to the land, to nature. I feel a close affinity to the land. Ambassador: Isn't that a lovely book His Divine Grace brought me? Mrs. Keating: Oh my! *Guru dāsa: There's sixty*-four paintings in... Ambassador: Yeah, I sought to achieve those paintings. Lovely. Mrs. Keating: Oh, that's wonderful. Ambassador: Now, Your Divine Grace, when did you... Did you from boyhood enter this movement, or... Prabhupāda: Yes. My father was a great devotee. Ambassador: I see. Prabhupāda: So from the very childhood I was trained up. Ambassador: I see. Prabhupāda: Then it was very much adjusted after meeting my spiritual master. But the ideas were impregnated and I was trained up from my childhood. That was a great opportunity that I got a very good.... I have dedicated this book to my father. Ambassador: Oh! Oh, yes. Guru dāsa: "To my father, Gour Mohan De." Ambassador: Yeah, it's nice. Śyāmasundara: We met Prabhupāda's sister in Calcutta. She is also a great devotee. Ambassador: Oh, really! Śyāmasundara: And she was lamenting that she has eight sons, eight sons, but none of them are devotees, and her brother has so many hundreds of sons, real sons. Ambassador: Oh. Mrs. Keating: Who is this? Ambassador: His sister. Mrs. Keating: Oh. Ambassador: The sister of who, of uh, His Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: My sister, my sister. Mrs. Keating: Oh, your sister. Prabhupāda: Material sister. Ambassador: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: She is my Godsister also. Ambassador: She uh, she's uh... Śyāmasundara: She's also a devotee. Ambassador: Devotee, but none of her children? Prabhupāda: Why? She has got eight children. Ambassador: No, but I mean they are not devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not so much. Śyāmasundara: And the father of one of our Godbrothers from America, Mr. Teton, he's from Chicago, he was there with Girirāja, and she was saying to him, his sister was saying to him, "You're so fortunate that your son is a devotee.'' He's a very wealthy attorney in Chicago, and his only son is a devotee, but he is somewhat, from material point of view, he was somewhat confused. So she said, "You should be very happy that your son is a devotee. I have eight sons, and they are not like your son." Guru dāsa: You met Girirāja. He came last time to the city. Ambassador: Oh, yes. I remember. Yes, yes. Guru dāsa: He's from Chicago. Ambassador: That's right. Now he, uh, he has a wife here? No? He's not married? Prabhupāda: No, he's not. Ambassador: But your wife is here? Śyāmasundara: Yes, she's here in India. Ambassador: It's a lovely little girl, and so well behaved. She must have already had a part of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our little girls at that age don't behave so well, usually. But she is so quiet and sweet. Śyāmasundara: Her only education has been from Prabhupāda. Ambassador and Guest: Really! Śyāmasundara: Completely. She doesn't know anything but Kṛṣṇa and... Mrs. Keating: Really. Ambassador: How old is she? Śyāmasundara: Three. Ambassador: Three. Mrs. Keating: But she doesn't tell me her name. (child giggles) Prabhupāda: This is bad reputation. Śyāmasundara: Why don't you chant for her? Ambassador: Could you chant? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She can chant. Sarasvatī prabhu, chant little. Śyāmasundara: Swamiji wants you to chant. Prabhupāda: Come on, come here. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on. Mrs. Keating: She's shy, like all children. Prabhupāda: She dances very nice, chants very nice. And very rhythmically. Mrs. Keating: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: One thing that has so much gone to, into our hearts is the fact that this philosophy and this way of life is eternal and nonsectarian. It applies to all people of all different races, different ages. Prabhupāda: That is my experience, you see. I have preached this cult everywhere, and everywhere it has been received well. Ambassador: Well that's a philosophy that mother Anne here believes in. All, all, all religions are... Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what do you mean by religion? Mrs. Keating: What? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by religion? Mrs. Keating: Oh, religion. Well, I'm more of an eclectic. I believe in, in the best of all religions. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mrs. Keating: I believe in the best of all religions. Prabhupāda: What is that? Mrs. Keating: The highest. Ambassador: He asked what you mean by religion. You mean an organized...? Mrs. Keating: Oh, no. I don't mean anything organized. Śyāmasundara: No. What... Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all, principle of religion. What is the principle of religion? Mrs. Keating: Well I think it comes from within, inside. I think we are at one with God and I am a reflection of God. I am an idea of God. That's what I believe. Prabhupāda: That is very nice. Idea of God means whatever you have got, God has got the same idea. Is it not? Mrs. Keating: Huh? Prabhupāda: You mean to say like that? Mrs. Keating: Ah huh. Prabhupāda: Or you are a sample of God. Mrs. Keating: Yes. Prabhupāda: A small sample of God. Just like you take a drop of ocean water and you taste it, then you can understand immediately the whole ocean is salty. Similarly, if you analyze your characteristic, then the same characteristic is there in God. Just like you want to love someone. Everyone wants to love someone. Therefore it can be concluded that God has got the propensity to love. Mrs. Keating: Yes. God is love. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if God is love... Mrs. Keating: Spirit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means love, so when you want to love somebody and somebody wants to love you, the both of us must be a person. Mrs. Keating: Both must be...? Prabhupāda: Person. You don't love the air. You love your husband. He is a person. And he loves you, you are a person. Therefore God must be person. This conclusion. Because I am person, I am a sample of God, so God must be person. What do you think? Without God being person, how we can reciprocate love? Ambassador: Uh, Your Divine Grace, I'm sorry, but I have an Ambassador waiting, and I have to move from the sublime to the mundane. I'd like to continue this, but he has this appointment and I have to... But I appreciate very much your coming in and... Prabhupāda: Now, I am also coming to the mundane point of view. The next time I want, when I go and come back to USA, I wish to see the President, if you can help me? Ambassador: Well I, I can write a letter, but uh, I've had, let me, don't let me discourage you, but let me tell you that I've had at least a dozen religious leaders from India request the same thing, and none of them have gotten to see the President. Prabhupāda: But one thing is... Ambassador: But I'll be glad to try to help. Prabhupāda: So, the things are, such an important philosophy, important movement is going unnoticed. You are busy to help the whole world so that peace will come, people may be happy, but instead of being happy, your country are becoming hippie. Mrs. Keating: (laughing) Happy to hippie. Ambassador: That's right. Prabhupāda: So there is some defect, and here is a chance to rectify that defect. Here is a chance. I can argue with any scientist, any philosopher, that this is the only remedy to save people from frustration. This is the only remedy. Why it should go unnoticed by your country, such a great, who are willing to help others, willing to help. You started the United Nations in your country for that. Let us do something tangible, scientific, that people will be happy. Ambassador: Oh, I think the, what this young man says is very encouraging, that some of this is now being slowly inculcated in our colleges and universities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Of all the movements, religious movements from India that have gone there, this one has shown the most potency of all, by far... Ambassador: Yes. Śyāmasundara: There's been nothing like this movement ever before in the United States or in the world. And its potency proves the philosophy. If something is potent it automatically grows. Ambassador: Yes, that's true. Guru dāsa: We want also to be encouraged by our brothers and friends. Ambassador: Yes, well that's right, and I'm so grateful to you for that lovely book. That's a beautiful book. I'll keep it out here on my table. Maybe I will send... You know, I had a young man here that was having trouble to extend his visa, and the government said to him, "What are you here for?'' He said, "I am here to find myself.'' They said I should have sent... He's a hippie... Mrs. Keating: This would be perfect. Ambassador: So I said, they said when they were in last time, you should have sent him to us, which I would do again, because it's... Guru dāsa: Then that hippie will become happy. Mrs. Keating: Will become happy, yes. Ambassador: Well, Your Divine Grace, thank you very much for stopping to see us. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Ambassador: Very nice of you. And nice to see you. Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ambassador: Give my regards to your wife. Bye. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Śyāmasundara: Say good*-bye, Sarasvatī. Mrs. Keating: Where can you be reached? Anyplace? Prabhupāda: My American headquarters. Mrs. Keating: The American... Prabhupāda: Yes, American headquarters. Ambassador: Is it in there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mrs. Keating: Oh, fine, fine. Yes. *Śyāmasundara: Today we received a telegram. Macmillan Company has just agreed to print Prabhupāda's Bhagavad*-gītā. Ambassador: Oh, really! *Śyāmasundara: Thirty*-five thousand copies. Ambassador: Oh! Mrs. Keating: Oh, that's marvellous. It's a very good... Ambassador: I used to be the attorney for the Macmillan Company. Prabhupāda: Yes, here is, here is my headquarters address. Ambassador: I see. In Los Angeles. Mrs. Keating: Oh, good. Fine. Prabhupāda: That is my Press address. Śyāmasundara: This was received today. Ambassador: "Macmillan enthusiastic. Commitment letter sent to you. 30,000 paper, 10,000 hard." Śyāmasundara: Forty thousand. Mrs. Keating: Excellent. Ambassador: Forty thousand. Mrs. Keating: Forty thousand. That's wonderful. Ambassador: That's great. Mrs. Keating: Really, and it's a fine company. Prabhupāda: Yes, fine. Mrs. Keating: It's very good. Śyāmasundara: Ambassador Keating was the attorney for Macmillan. Prabhupāda: Oh! Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ambassador: So I... Very nice to see you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Ambassador: And I appreciate your calling. Śyāmasundara: Thank you very much. (end) Morning Walk -- October 15, 1972, Våndävana Śyāmasundara: Did Vāsudeva carry Kṛṣṇa across the Yamunā? Indian man: Yes. Śyāmasundara: But their home was somewhere, other place. Indian man: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Their... The other Gokula was somewhere else. Indian man: The Kṛṣṇa was carried through old Gokula. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Indian man: Old Gokula. Śyāmasundara: Not at this place. Indian man: Not at this place. But for those whom..., for those people who are in, this is the real Gokula. (indistinct), but I think the old Gokula is that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...it is available? Devotee (1): Some boxes. Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man (2): Boxes, oh, you leave it there. Devotee: Huh? [break] Prabhupāda: Gokula, Hari bol. That does not cooperate with the modern... Indian man: No. It must have changed completely. [break] (kīrtana) Śyāmasundara: ...tell us a little bit about the temple as we move? Prabhupāda: Yes. This temple was constructed by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, one of the first disciples of Lord Caitanya, and this is Narottama Samādhi. Here is Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī entombed, and here is Rūpa Gosvāmī entombed. Later on, several other devotees, they are not entombed like them. Flowers from their body, they were placed. It is called Puṣpa Samādhi. But here, the original bodies. Devotee (1): Ah. This is Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja's body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Original bodies. Prabhupāda: And that side, the original body of Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī. [break] Śyāmasundara: ...a well? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the original well. *Passer*-by: (Hindi to Prabhupāda) Devotee (1): Did the Gosvāmīs drink from this well, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is... This well water is used for cooking, for... [break] Devotee (1): And Jīva Gosvāmī and Rūpa, they drank from this well? *Prabhupāda: (Hindi with passers*-by) This is the place for dining. The Gosvāmīs, they used to dine here, this room. Devotee (1): Is this building four or five hundred years old? This very room? Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh, yes! Devotee (1): This is the original building? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not less than four hundred and fifty years. Śyāmasundara: And they used to meet here daily? Prabhupāda: Yes. They, all the Gosvāmīs, used to sit down there. And Rūpa Gosvāmī's bhajana, he was dancing here, and after his passing away, he was entombed there. But that tomb is Lokanātha Gosvāmī. He is also one of the important Gosvāmīs. Śyāmasundara: Rūpa Gosvāmī. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi with passers*-by) Śyāmasundara: Could you tell us any stories about Rūpa Gosvāmī while we are sitting here, or any... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Rūpa Gosvāmī was a minister. So after retirement he, under the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he came to Vṛndāvana. Indian man: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī. So formerly they were living under trees. That I have already described in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Later on, when Jīva Gosvāmī constructed this temple, he is nephew and disciple, at that time Rūpa Gosvāmī also, he lived with his disciple. Actually, this temple belongs to Jīva Gosvāmī, and Rūpa Gosvāmī's temple is at... Śyāmasundara: We saw it. Prabhupāda: ...Govindajī. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: And Sanātana Gosvāmī's temple is at Madana-Mohana. But when Jīva Gosvāmī was here, naturally*-they were elder uncle-so lived together, and because they, all of them lived here, so other Gosvāmīs, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, all of them used to meet here. And Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī used to live (indistinct), and all other Gosvāmīs used to be here. And this is explained, Rūpa Gosvāmī bhajana, that chant (indistinct). Indian man: (Hindi with Prabhupāda) Śyāmasundara: Are those rooms you live in, were they formerly inhabited by the Gosvāmīs, Jīva or Rūpa Gosvāmī, those rooms you have now? Prabhupāda: These rooms? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: These came after that time. Prabhupāda: This is..., rooms were existing, but they used to sit down here. Devotee (1): Was Vṛndāvana mostly...? *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) In this place, all the six Gosvāmīs used to sit down and read Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Śyāmasundara: And, and did... Indian man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: At that time Vṛndāvana was existing as a village or mostly open area? Prabhupāda: Formerly, before Lord Caitanya's coming here, this was open fields. Nothing... Śyāmasundara: So everything has been built up. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So after the Gosvāmīs came here, practically, all this Vṛndāvana city has developed. Before that, it was open fields. (Hindi) You developed this photo here in India also? Devotee (1): Ah, some of it. Indian man: At least mine and Swamiji. Prabhupāda: You send some copies here. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You can take one photograph alone. Have you got (indistinct). Śyāmasundara: This man here. This man. Devotee: Where? Śyāmasundara: Right here. Is he one of your old friends? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: He lives in the... Prabhupāda: In this temple. Śyāmasundara: He lives in this temple. This, where the... Prabhupāda: He has left his (indistinct). [break] *Śyāmasundara: Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu was written here, in this place? Indian man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Imlitala. Śyāmasundara: Imlitala? (indistinct) The car is not here? Indian man: No, he's just coming the... Gargamuni: It's just a very brief walk. Śyāmasundara: We can walk. Gargamuni: It's very brief walk. *Śyāmasundara: Is that, is that Mahā*-rāsa place on the way? Gargamuni: It's, yes, it's more or less, Sevakunj. Śyāmasundara: Is it, is it, er, should we.... [break] When we go to Bombay, I think. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Devotee (2): The place where mahā*-rāsa took place? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (2): So it is of no significance to us then? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: This... Words and films. Indian man: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) New York, San Francisco, Los Angles, Chicago, Boston, Buffalo, Montreal. Sixty*-six all over the world. Indian man: (Hindi with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: Oh. Give immediately, on the (indistinct). Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Give immediately. And you come to the Imlitala. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian man: (Hindi) (referring to Sarasvatī) Don't eat that She is licking the... Śyāmasundara: What, coins? Indian man: No. Licking the (indistinct) also. Prabhupāda: Oh, how you have come here? Indian man (3): (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This is a new edition? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, all the dogs are coming. (dogs barking) Is the driver here? There's the driver. Should we walk, or... Prabhupāda: (Hindi with guest) [break] ...and how it is concerned, we can get many. The thing is, will he get his (indistinct). Śyāmasundara: Hm. I've been thinking a lot about it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I'm thinking that if we developed a very large center here, like a headquarters, it would have worldwide impact. Prabhupāda: Uh. Śyāmasundara: Because, just like a throwing a rock in the pond, first of all the devotees of India would all be coming... Prabhupāda: Uh. Śyāmasundara: ...and it would revitalize the spiritual life of India from this point, and then the whole world would come to Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: So, now next thing, what to do? *Śyāmasundara: I was thinking perhaps I would like to devote a lot of time to raising funds for such a project*-in the United States, England. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Manage. Prabhupāda: Manage? There's no scarcity of funds. Śyāmasundara: Yes. If we built the most magnificent temple and center here, which was full of spiritual life, day and night hundreds of devotees would be there having kīrtana, and all the devotees of Vṛndāvana would come. They're simply astounded by our kīrtana when they come to our house. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: What's this? This is another temple? Imlitala? Devotee(2): Imlitala. Śyāmasundara: Oh, this is not the entrance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: (Hindi) Indian man (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Jaya. Indian: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayo Mahārāja. Śyāmasundara: That is your Guru Mahārāja, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: That is a mūrti of Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Ah! Śyāmasundara: Aaah. Prabhupāda: Not like (indistinct). (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: (to daughter) Sarasvatī, who is that? Prabhupāda: (Hindi with Indian man) Śyāmasundara: What is the history of this temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (to Indian man) You say. Indian: You would like to say in English? Śyāmasundara: Ah, yes. Indian: Not in Hindi. Śyāmasundara: If you can speak English, please. *Indian: This is an old place, Vṛndāvana. Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu came here and sat under this tree nearly five hundred years back. He sat under this tree and meditated: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, until midday. Several days He chanted His name and came here and sat. This tree is the old tree of Dvāpara*-yuga. Under this tree, Rādhikā and Kṛṣṇa both met once. This is written in Param-Gita(?) For this reason Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu came here with this reason. He came here and sat under this tree and recited the name Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. When He sat here once, one Vaiṣṇava, name Kṛṣṇadāsa, name Kṛṣṇadāsa, he saw, at night, he dreamt of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and became mad to see Him, and he crossed the Yamunā River, Keśīghāṭa, and gradually came here and saw the glorious silhouette of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he made his obeisance to His feet, and Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu touch him, and he became mad with Kṛṣṇa-prema, and then Mahāprabhu, from this place, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu came, went to Rādhā-kuṇḍa, but displayed the name of this before that time. *Prabhupāda: He went to Rādhā*-kuṇḍa? *Indian: Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. He went there and asked the old gentlemen of that place that "Where is Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Śyāma-kuṇḍa?'' But none of them (indistinct) Rādhā-kuṇḍa. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, discovery of Rādhā*-kuṇḍa. Śyāmasundara: From this place He went there. *Guest: Yes, He went there, Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, Śyāma-kuṇḍa place. Ariṣṭa-grāma.(?) Ariṣṭāsura(?) was (indistinct), killed there by (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa. So He went there and asked the old people in there, but nobody can say that where is Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Śyāma-kuṇḍa. After that Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself said to the field, that "This is Rādhā-kuṇḍa and this is Śyāma-kuṇḍa," and that this place was low place. There's some water there. He lifted the waters (indistinct) and said that "These two places are Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Śyāma-kuṇḍa." In this way, Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Śyāma-kuṇḍa were discovered there. After that He went to Sola, Solakṣetra(?), and because and Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu came here, so after His visit here He went to (indistinct), and Rūpa and Sanātana first came here. And after, following them, all the Vaiṣṇavas came to Vṛndāvana, and gradually Vṛndāvana was discovered (indistinct), and places and important places which..., holy places of this Vṛndāvana and Vraja-maṇḍala was discovered by the followers of Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, (indistinct). They both discovered all the places (indistinct), holy places of Vṛndāvana. In this way, this place was discovered. Nobody knew this place. Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself came here, sat under this tree because under this tree, Kṛṣṇa and Rādhikā met. (Hindi) Once, at the time of rāsa, how They met here once at the time of rāsa, Śrīmate Rādhā, Rādhikā felt that "I am not be able..." Prabhupāda: "Able to walk." He carried..." Indian: "I'm not really (indistinct)." So He left rāsa and went out. Śrī Kṛṣṇa saw that there is no Rādhikā, every, all the gopīs were still, Rādhikā not there, so He left all them and went out and began to search Her. But through roaming about Vṛndāvana He did not caught Her, and after became very regretted. He sat under this tree, and Rādhikā afterwards came here and met Him. In this way, Rādhā Kṛṣṇa (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: (Hindi with Indian) Guru*-Gaurāṅga, then Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Where is my stick? Devotee (2): Stick? Just here. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Accha. If you want to take photo, you can take. Indian: If you wish, you can take photo. Prabhupāda: Is it ready? Film is ready? Where is he? He has gone? Śyāmasundara: You can take photos of the Deities if you like. Devotee (1): He has gone to the other side. Prabhupāda: All right. Śyāmasundara: The, the movie camera. Devotee: It's really dark. Śyāmasundara: Oh, it's dark. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: This is Yamunā River? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is branch of. Śyāmasundara: Branch of Yamunā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian: You come this place. Come this way. Devotee: Where is the main Yamunā? Prabhupāda: Main Yamunā is (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: It's very strong.... Indian: (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Thousands of years old. Indian: This is (indistinct) place of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: This is a ghāṭa? Prabhupāda: This was formerly a ghāṭa. (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: Oh. There's Yamunā out there, is it not? Indian: (Hindi) Here is the footprint of Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śyāmasundara: Accha. Indian: He stepped here. Big! Śyāmasundara: It's very large, large. *Prabhupāda: (to passer*-by) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Devotee: Jaya. Śyāmasundara: Lord Caitanya was very tall, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Child: Hari bol! Prabhupāda: Hari bol! (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: Who is that? Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī. He is one of my eldest Godbrothers. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: He also went to London. Yes. I sometimes speak that he talked with Lord Zetland. Śyāmasundara: Aha. But he left no followers there? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: When Kṛṣṇa used to come here, was His home in Gokula at that time, or Mathurā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And He used to come here for herding the cows? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): But He did not live here. Śyāmasundara: Was there any palace here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Was there any palace here of His parents? Prabhupāda: They say there is a (indistinct) (Hindi) Huh? [break] Śyāmasundara: Everyone wants some prasāda. Prabhupāda: [break] ...some small feast. Indian: (Hindi) Śyāmasundara: Sarasvatī. Prabhupāda: (Hindi with Indians) Śyāmasundara: I should stay here with Subala Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I should stay here with Subala Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: As you like it. Śyāmasundara: What is that? Prabhupāda: We shall talk. Śyāmasundara: Oh. (end) Introduction Speech By Dr. Kapoor and Conversation -- October 15, 1972, Våndävana *Dr. Kapoor: ...here at Rādhā*-Dāmodara. After his long tour of the world in which he got passed the message of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the different karmas, to the different nationalities of the world. This return back to homeland of Śrīla Prabhupāda, is particularly significant, because this time he comes back with a host of his western disciples. This signifies to me the meeting of the East and the West, or at least the beginning of such a meeting. This signifies the victory of spiritualism over materialism, of good over evil. This is really a rare moment in history, for for the first time in the history of the world, for the first time at least living memory, Vaiṣṇavism, the message of Vaiṣṇavism, the message of Mahāprabhu, the message of devotion and of pure devotion has been carried to the west and carried so successfully. I am sure that historians of the future will have a lot to say about Prabhupāda and his movement, and they will be even envious of us for living in a time when this movement was begun and for participating in it. I have a secret realization that at this moment, while we are welcoming Prabhupāda, Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, whose samādhis signify their eternal presence in the sacred precincts of this temple, are also joining us in welcoming Prabhupāda, and they are showering their choicest blessings upon him. I can hear them saying, "Long live Prabhupāda, long live Prabhupāda." I am sure as a result of their presence, Prabhupāda will live long for many, many more years, to broadcast the message of Caitanya Mahāprabhu all the world over and inspire us to inspire us with a special zeal in our hearts. And I am sure as a result of their blessings he will rise always, from glory(?). I have also a secret realization that Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī and Jīva Gosvāmī are not only showering their blessings upon Prabhupāda but also upon the western disciples of Prabhupāda that have come along with him and saying that in the process will be realized (?) the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and surely and steadily advance on the path of peace, happiness, and divine grace. *Prabhupāda: So blessings of Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor. He is a Vaiṣṇava. Although by age he is my younger brother, we are Godbrothers, and for the last forty years perhaps, since he was a student at Allahabad and I was doing some business there, we are known to each other. So his association is a great blessing for us. But this reception is actually not my reception. It is the reception of my foreign students. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that His message should be broadcast all over the world, in every village and every town, and my Guru Mahārāja attempted. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura distributed his literature. I think, in 1896, he sent his first book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and I saw in McGill University that book. And I do not know. That was the year of my birth also, 1896. So somehow or other, later on, I came in contact with Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja in 1922, and he immediately asked me that "Why don't you go to the foreign countries and preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's blessings." So I was little surprised. Especially at that time, I was very young man and I was newly married. I got one son also. So it was my mistake that I did not take up the words of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja immediately. I thought that "I am now married. Let me settle down." Perhaps if I would have joined from 1922, by the blessings of Guru Mahārāja, I could do more preaching work. Anyway, it is better late than never. After my retirement, I was living in the Keśī-ghāṭa, Nāthagrāma(?) Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple. But this Gosāijī, Gauracanda Gosāijī, he asked me, "Why don't you come here?" So I left that place. I came here. And with some arrangement, I took this room. But I was always thinking that "Guru Mahārāja asked me, and he asked also some of my other God-brothers, but up till now, nothing has been done. So let me try, at least, at the fag end of my life." So I left Vṛndāvana in 1970 and went to New York. Uh, not. 1965. At the age of 70 years. But for one year I had no place to live. I took some of my books, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, printed here, up to three parts, First Canto. And I was personally selling these books to the book sellers and to the persons any way. With great difficulty I was pulling on. And New York is a very expensive city, a great city, a great forest. (laughs) And I am poor man. So then it is a long history. Then I began chanting in the Tompkinson Square, and I think, in the first day this boy, Acyutānanda Mahārāja now, he and another boy, Brahmānanda Mahārāja, he is also preaching in Africa, these two boys danced, and this photograph was published in the New York Times with great details. That was the first encouragement. And after chanting in the park, many young men and girls used to come to my apartment and my meeting place. In this way I started, first in New York, then in San Francisco, then Montreal, then Boston. In this way, now we have got about one hundred branches all over the world, forty branches in America. Big, big cities, Australia, I mean to say, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Boston. What is that? Other cities? San Francisco. Devotees: Dallas. Prabhupāda: Dallas. Dallas we have got very nice temple. Detroit. I thought that our temple, Los Angeles temple, is the best. But this year I went to Dallas. Oh, it is better than Los Angeles. (laughter) It is so nice. Now we are trying to purchase the Berkshire palace in England. Yes. That was being occupied by the Duke of Windsor. I don't think whether I have got, received one letter from. No. So the price is 500,000 dollars. Dr. Kapoor: 500,000 dollars? Prabhupāda: Yes. $500,000 means five crores according to Indian rate. Dr. Kapoor: (laughing) Fabulous. *Prabhupāda: So I had no money, (laughter). But one nice boy-his name is known all over the world, George Harrison*-he has promised to give me loan. Dr. Kapoor: Kṛṣṇa has all the money. Prabhupāda: Yes. So actually, we are spending not less than seven lakhs of rupees per month throughout the whole our institution. But by the grace of God, Kṛṣṇa, we are selling our books very nicely. Dr. Kapoor: That's very encouraging. That's most encouraging. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are selling our books, average, at the rate of 25,000 rupees per day. Dr. Kapoor: Ah. That is unbelievable, I must... Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are selling magazines, books, and especially our *Nectar of Devotion* is selling like hotcakes. (laughter) *Nectar of Devotion*. So Kṛṣṇa is encouraging. There is no scarcity. And I am traveling throughout the world at least twice in a year. And each time we have to spend... Now we purchased $20,000 ticket for four persons. $20,000. $20,000 means how much in Indian exchange? $20,000 to ten times. Dr. Kapoor: 200... Prabhupāda: 200,000. That means two lakhs. So our expenditure is going like that. Keep books. And we print at least ten thousand books, fifty thousand books. Our Kṛṣṇa Trilogy. Have you got here, Kṛṣṇa Trilogy? You have seen? Dr. Kapoor: No. Prabhupāda: Show him that book, Kṛṣṇa Trilogy. That is selling. That is now recommended in some of the colleges as textbook. *Nectar of Devotion* is also recommended as a textbook in the Temple University, Pittsburgh. (indistinct) Dr. Kapoor: Ācchā, very good. That's very good. Students are accepting in all earnestness. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Accepting. Accepting. No. This is Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Dr. Kapoor: This also, I haven't seen yet. *Prabhupāda: Oh. This is Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. This is being published by MacMillan Co. They printed in the last half month of August, fifty thousand. That is now finished, now going to second edition. Dr. Kapoor: Ah. Kṛṣṇa is working wonders. Prabhupāda: So, what is this? Devotee: Trilogy is not at this place. I think we have it here. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, whichever book we are publishing, that is being accepted. And people inquire when they go for saṅkīrtana in big, big cities, they inquire, "Have you got this book? Have you got this book?" Yes. And we are receiving mail orders, at least twenty mail orders. And this time I was surprised. They have taken a godown in Los Angeles. This is bigger than the Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, so big. Only for stocking books and incense. We are manufacturing incense. That I suggested. Sometimes I went to Ramakrishna mission and I saw they are selling incense. So I suggested that "Why don't you..." So I gave them idea how to manufacture. Because I have... Dr. Kapoor: You have the background. Prabhupāda: I can give them. They are asking me about my pain liniment and the eczema ointment. (laughter) I can give them. I can give them. *Dr. Kapoor: You can tell them you are now selling Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti. Prabhupāda: But I warned them that "Do not become too much business." (laughter) yāvad arthaḥ prayojana. You require some money. So you are selling this incense and books. Kṛṣṇa is giving us sufficiently. If you divert your attention, I can give the whole pharmacopeia because I have got good experience to manufacture. So in this way Kṛṣṇa is meeting our expenses, the expenses. And not only that. These American young boys, they are fully cooperating. These boys and girls. Where is that girl, Śāradīyā? Here is nice girl. You see. And where is your husband? Oh. Oh, why you are so skinny? Śāradīyā: Prabhupāda, he just got over jaundice. In Bombay. Devotee: In Bombay he had jaundice. Prabhupāda: Oh. So give him sugar candy water. Bring in the morning. You know sugar candy? The sugar candy... Soak sugar candy at night in a glass, and the first business in the morning you should take that glass of water, sugar candy. Śāradīyā: He is doing all that now. Prabhupāda: Ah. And he should not take at all ghee. No fatty preparation. And if it is possible, secure papaya, raw papaya, green, and boil it in the... These are the medicine for jaundice. He is inside this room? He has come back? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, so you have come to Vṛndāvana, and just go on with bhajana, Rūpa Gosvāmī's place, and we are trying to construct a temple. Dr. Kapoor: Yes. You are very lucky in almost getting I think that big building on the bank of the Yamunā. (indistinct) Kuṭir. It's a huge thing. A huge thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. (conversation in Hindi for a few minutes) Rādhārāṇī asked him that he must do. She is also pakka baniya. (laughter) Without the order of Rādhārāṇī,... He has got... But when he says Rādhārāṇī, Rādhārāṇī is asking, then he cannot refuse. Thank you very much. Ācchā? So prasādam. Give them prasādam. Is there any prasādam? Gurudāsa: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So distribute. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Everyone: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (some conversation in Hindi) tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. (Hindi) Mām eti. Immediately. I have given them this idea that senses, finer than the senses is the mind, and finer than the mind is intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is the soul. So the speed of soul one can imagine by comparing the speed of the mind. The speed of the mind... You are sitting here. You can go immediately by the speed of mind, immediately twenty thousand miles or fifty thousand miles. But the soul is still finer. So how speedily we can go. That's a fact. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. Because according to śāstra, we can understand that when it is settled up where the spirit soul is going to take birth... It is very shortly settled up, and then immediately he is transferred to the semina of the father. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. This is in the Bhāgavata. According to his karma and by the consideration of superior authority, the spirit soul is immediately transferred in the semina of the male, father. And he injects in the womb of the woman. And the two secretion emulsified, it becomes just like a pea, and that pea grows. And then nine holes are coming out, and they become eyes, ears, like that. But Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā deham. So after giving up this body, one is immediately transferred to another material body. But tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. He does not take any more in the material body. Then immediately he comes, mām eti. So how speedily he can go. Because he has to go through the universe and the covering of the universe. The covering of the universe. There are also earth, water, air, fire, ten times. One element ten times more than the other element. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Arjuna, by the help of Kṛṣṇa, penetrated the walls of this universe, and he went to see Kāraṇodakśāyī Viṣṇu. And he returned. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he saw Kāraṇodakśāyī Viṣṇu. So penetrating this huge space and then covering, huge covering, and immediately he goes to Goloka Vṛndāvana, mām eti. Dr. Kapoor: I think the journey is so, fast because it is not in time. Time is transcended. *Prabhupāda: Time has nothing to do. That is stated in the Second Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that time has no influence there. Dr. Kapoor: Neither day nor night. Prabhupāda: No, there is no such thing. Dr. Kapoor: Modern conception of speed is within the sphere of time. But our journey transcends time. Naturally it has to be faster than any journey you can imagine. Prabhupāda: No. We speak from the śāstra. There is no question of imagination. We speak from śāstra. So we have explained, tried to explain these things in *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. And people are taking it very nicely. It is sold very quickly, very quickly. [break] I would like to see you that you are living in palaces. Yaśodānandana: We want to put Kṛṣṇa in palace. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you the opportunity, you Americans. Now you are taking Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will be the most opulent nation of the world. Lakṣmī*-Nārāyaṇa both. You have got Lakṣmī, but if you take Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī will be permanent. Lakṣmī will not go. And if you reject Nārāyaṇa, then Lakṣmī will stay for some time. That is Cañcalā. Her name is Cañcalā. The British empire has failed, the Roman Empire has failed, the so many empires, the Mogul empire has failed, because they wanted Lakṣmī, not Nārāyaṇa. If you take Nārāyaṇa, your Lakṣmī will stay. Just try to convince your countrymen, just like President Nixon. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that I was dictated to go to America, because Kṛṣṇa wants that you should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa wants. So you have taken. Now spread. It will be grand success. And there are so many candidates, very nice. All right, go on, take... (end) Conversation A -- October 24, 1972, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: Now in Vṛndāvana here is one temple . . . there is likely that they cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose everything is in our hand. How to manage? Therefore accepting the main temple, you have to . . . how to manage. This is between ourself. Suppose if Bharatpur Mahārāja after some time . . . (indistinct) . . . in this temple also, I am making the important decisions. (break) . . . is not in favor of Indian parties. So if they also come in our hands, it has to be . . . (indistinct) Now, supposing you have got three, then how you to manage? Simply taking over is no good. Because they are giving, means they cannot manage. That property is very valuable property, Bharatpur place. So they are thinking of giving it over to us because it is not being managed. Their position is here. So up to now we are strong. But if our, what is called, cooperation becomes slack, then our temple also the same thing will be. That, the . . . (indistinct) . . . that I am staying here for the last ten or twelve years and paying, but the property belongs to the Deity. And there are several sevaites. Sometimes somebody starts noting that you neglect; sometimes somebody takes money in other. So what is my position? . . . (indistinct) . . . the renter may decide what is my position. Actually, in terms of the renter, I am tenant for these two rooms, and that also . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . for some place it becomes difficult. Find out that man's name . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, I have got many . . . (indistinct) . . . but it is sentiment. We have established . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose we beget the management for the whole . . . (indistinct) . . .? How we shall manage? Gurudāsa: Not only how, but who. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Not how, as well as who. Because how is not . . . (break) Prabhupāda: The mouse are afraid of cats. So they held a meeting . . . (indistinct) . . . then the resolution was passed that, "Let there be a bell in the neck of the cat fixed up, so that when he is coming, the bell will ring, and we shall know, 'Now he is coming.' " Immediately it was passed. The first resolution was passed. Then how to bell? Who will go to bell? (laughs) *Because anyone who will go to bell the cat, he will be devoured. So the plan*-making that "This will be managed like this," there is a resolution, bells, fixing of a bell. Now go in and fix up the bell. Gurudāsa: It seems that Bhavānanda Prabhu is the best manager. Prabhupāda: No, manager anyone can become, but manpower . . . we have no Indian members chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gurudāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how much men we shall import? And whether it is feasible by importing men to manage this facility? Gurudāsa: Now there are . . . there seems to be a surplus of men in Bombay, from all the reports I've gotten. So some could come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: But . . . Prabhupāda: If we remain here and attract foreigners to come . . . Gurudāsa: The manpower will come from them. Prabhupāda: Not only visitors . . . (indistinct) . . . those who are spiritually inclined. In that way we may get opportunity. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The another point is that when we manage these things, there are many guṇḍās in Vṛndāvana; they will try to create some trouble. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . you were present? This boy was fighting with one man. You were not present? Gurudāsa: No. What time was it? Prabhupāda: When the minister came. Gurudāsa: No. I was not here at that time. Prabhupāda: Sometimes it becomes quarrel. (break) (end) Conversation A -- October 24, 1972, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: Now in Vṛndāvana here is one temple . . . there is likely that they cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose everything is in our hand. How to manage? Therefore accepting the main temple, you have to . . . how to manage. This is between ourself. Suppose if Bharatpur Mahārāja after some time . . . (indistinct) . . . in this temple also, I am making the important decisions. (break) . . . is not in favor of Indian parties. So if they also come in our hands, it has to be . . . (indistinct) Now, supposing you have got three, then how you to manage? Simply taking over is no good. Because they are giving, means they cannot manage. That property is very valuable property, Bharatpur place. So they are thinking of giving it over to us because it is not being managed. Their position is here. So up to now we are strong. But if our, what is called, cooperation becomes slack, then our temple also the same thing will be. That, the . . . (indistinct) . . . that I am staying here for the last ten or twelve years and paying, but the property belongs to the Deity. And there are several sevaites. Sometimes somebody starts noting that you neglect; sometimes somebody takes money in other. So what is my position? . . . (indistinct) . . . the renter may decide what is my position. Actually, in terms of the renter, I am tenant for these two rooms, and that also . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . for some place it becomes difficult. Find out that man's name . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, I have got many . . . (indistinct) . . . but it is sentiment. We have established . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose we beget the management for the whole . . . (indistinct) . . .? How we shall manage? Gurudāsa: Not only how, but who. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Not how, as well as who. Because how is not . . . (break) Prabhupāda: The mouse are afraid of cats. So they held a meeting . . . (indistinct) . . . then the resolution was passed that, "Let there be a bell in the neck of the cat fixed up, so that when he is coming, the bell will ring, and we shall know, 'Now he is coming.' " Immediately it was passed. The first resolution was passed. Then how to bell? Who will go to bell? (laughs) *Because anyone who will go to bell the cat, he will be devoured. So the plan*-making that "This will be managed like this," there is a resolution, bells, fixing of a bell. Now go in and fix up the bell. Gurudāsa: It seems that Bhavānanda Prabhu is the best manager. Prabhupāda: No, manager anyone can become, but manpower . . . we have no Indian members chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gurudāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how much men we shall import? And whether it is feasible by importing men to manage this facility? Gurudāsa: Now there are . . . there seems to be a surplus of men in Bombay, from all the reports I've gotten. So some could come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: But . . . Prabhupāda: If we remain here and attract foreigners to come . . . Gurudāsa: The manpower will come from them. Prabhupāda: Not only visitors . . . (indistinct) . . . those who are spiritually inclined. In that way we may get opportunity. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The another point is that when we manage these things, there are many guṇḍās in Vṛndāvana; they will try to create some trouble. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . you were present? This boy was fighting with one man. You were not present? Gurudāsa: No. What time was it? Prabhupāda: When the minister came. Gurudāsa: No. I was not here at that time. Prabhupāda: Sometimes it becomes quarrel. (break) (end) Conversation A -- October 25, 1972, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: You have not met? Gurudāsa: Yes, I have met him. At Janmāṣṭamī two years ago at New Vrindavan. *Pañca*-draviḍa: He is coming in on the third shift, I think. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: They will . . . Girirāja and Bhavānanda and them, they will probably be in the third shift, depending on how the land deal goes, whether it is settled by then. Prabhupāda: It must be settled. Not whether. Therefore I have asked so many people to go there. It must be settled. *Pañca*-draviḍa: The last situation I had heard was that everybody was agreeable, that Nair himself was agreeable and that everything was proceeding, but it was in the hands of the Municipality, and that was going so slow, and that Nair himself, he is saying so many dubious things on the outside, but in complete agreement once you step into a room with him. So we are not so much sure. It's more or less in the hands of the Municipality, but who knows what is going on behind the table. Something like that. (break) Prabhupāda: Take a little breakfast? Gurudāsa: They said you wanted to see me? Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh, about that typing. Gurudāsa: Ācchā . (break) Prabhupāda: Oh, you have secured that house in London. Gurudāsa: Oh, jaya! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Berkshire Palace. Devotee (1): Berkshire Palace, very impressive. Gurudāsa: Duke of Windsor's castle. Devotee (1): He's the king there, right? The queen's husband. Prabhupāda: He was to be the king, but he rejected for that one common girl. So the ministry asked him that, "You have to give up this girl or you have to give up your throne." So he preferred to give up his throne. And the present queen's father, his second brother, he was made king, King George VI. Otherwise, this Duke of Windsor . . . when he refused to become the king, he became the Duke of Windsor and he was given this Berkshire Palace. Gurudāsa: He also is the one who has the Windsor Palace? Prabhupāda: No, Windsor Palace is the queens. That is some seasonal residence. This Buckingham Palace is office. Actually, for residential palace, the Windsor Palace. Windsor Palace? Gurudāsa: Windsor, yes. Prabhupāda: That palace we see in passing. Gurudāsa: Yes, large palace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Windsor. Prabhupāda: Berkshire Palace is also nearby. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is nearer to John's Tittenhurst. What is that? Gurudāsa: Tittenhurst Park. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Park. (to Sarasvatī) Come on, come on. Come on. So Sarasvatī devī, we have got good news, your father is coming tomorrow. It is all right? Śyāmasundara is coming tomorrow. You like? Gurudāsa: She says she has four fathers and mothers. Prabhupāda: Four fathers? Gurudāsa: And mothers. Devotee (1): Who are they? Sarasvatī: (indistinct) . . . (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: Four fathers and four mothers? Sarasvatī: Four fathers and . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara is coming tomorrow. Sarasvatī: I told her. Prabhupāda: You have told her? Sarasvatī: I told her that she's . . . Śyāmasundara is coming very soon. Prabhupāda: Ohhhh, that's nice. (break) . . . men Monday? Acyutānanda: We can send them, but they won't go. Prabhupāda: So if you can make somebody agree, then he is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow. Acyutānanda: But no one will agree to leave you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Acyutānanda: Letter from the press, regarding my songbook. Prabhupāda: Oh. Acyutānanda: So I don't know what to do. Nobody would like to go, to leave you. We would like to go, but we wouldn't want to miss your classes. Gurudāsa: That is so. Prabhupāda: So you can make one condition, that if you return us, we can go at eight or nine, but you must return us by four. Then we can go. Make this condition. Instead of saying no, make some condition. Acyutānanda: It's the 29th? Gurudāsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: And he's coming tomorrow? Prabhupāda: I have asked him to come day after tomorrow. He comes generally at about ten. Acyutānanda: But I heard that last year we went and it was not a very big function. (break) I wrote that letter to this Lalitānanda about this Jāhnavī . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Acyutānanda: Jāhnavī*-sampradāya. *Prabhupāda: Jāhnavī*-sampradāya? Oh, yes, yes. Acyutānanda: So they don't want to put it in Back to Godhead because I used the word "infantile, naive, undereducated and incompetent," and that's considered most ungentlemanly. Devotee (2): They do not like publishing . . . (indistinct) . . . articles. Acyutānanda: But Prabhupāda says fools and rascals and . . . Devotee (2): I have written so many articles in the past two years, and one has been published in two years. Prabhupāda: For Back to Godhead ? Devotee (2): Back to Godhead , yes. They say no one can understand them. *Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . from Subala dāsa Mahārāja that they have received his letter on September 16th and I have requested Karandhara to send him one Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Devotee (2): Karandhara has already said no. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: Boi ta kothay pelen? (Where have you got the book?) Guest: . . . Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Mahārāja. Prabhupada: Oh, ta amake dekhaben. (Oh, then you show it to me.) (break) Prabhupada: . . . janmasthan. (. . . birthplace.) Guest: . . . pashe. (. . . near it.) Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: . . . pashe (. . . near it.) Prabhupada: Accha. (Okay.) Guest: Ek sho panch number . . . (At number 105 . . .) (break) (end) Conversation A -- October 25, 1972, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: You have not met? Gurudāsa: Yes, I have met him. At Janmāṣṭamī two years ago at New Vrindavan. *Pañca*-draviḍa: He is coming in on the third shift, I think. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: They will . . . Girirāja and Bhavānanda and them, they will probably be in the third shift, depending on how the land deal goes, whether it is settled by then. Prabhupāda: It must be settled. Not whether. Therefore I have asked so many people to go there. It must be settled. *Pañca*-draviḍa: The last situation I had heard was that everybody was agreeable, that Nair himself was agreeable and that everything was proceeding, but it was in the hands of the Municipality, and that was going so slow, and that Nair himself, he is saying so many dubious things on the outside, but in complete agreement once you step into a room with him. So we are not so much sure. It's more or less in the hands of the Municipality, but who knows what is going on behind the table. Something like that. (break) Prabhupāda: Take a little breakfast? Gurudāsa: They said you wanted to see me? Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh, about that typing. Gurudāsa: Ācchā . (break) Prabhupāda: Oh, you have secured that house in London. Gurudāsa: Oh, jaya! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Berkshire Palace. Devotee (1): Berkshire Palace, very impressive. Gurudāsa: Duke of Windsor's castle. Devotee (1): He's the king there, right? The queen's husband. Prabhupāda: He was to be the king, but he rejected for that one common girl. So the ministry asked him that, "You have to give up this girl or you have to give up your throne." So he preferred to give up his throne. And the present queen's father, his second brother, he was made king, King George VI. Otherwise, this Duke of Windsor . . . when he refused to become the king, he became the Duke of Windsor and he was given this Berkshire Palace. Gurudāsa: He also is the one who has the Windsor Palace? Prabhupāda: No, Windsor Palace is the queens. That is some seasonal residence. This Buckingham Palace is office. Actually, for residential palace, the Windsor Palace. Windsor Palace? Gurudāsa: Windsor, yes. Prabhupāda: That palace we see in passing. Gurudāsa: Yes, large palace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Windsor. Prabhupāda: Berkshire Palace is also nearby. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is nearer to John's Tittenhurst. What is that? Gurudāsa: Tittenhurst Park. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Park. (to Sarasvatī) Come on, come on. Come on. So Sarasvatī devī, we have got good news, your father is coming tomorrow. It is all right? Śyāmasundara is coming tomorrow. You like? Gurudāsa: She says she has four fathers and mothers. Prabhupāda: Four fathers? Gurudāsa: And mothers. Devotee (1): Who are they? Sarasvatī: (indistinct) . . . (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: Four fathers and four mothers? Sarasvatī: Four fathers and . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara is coming tomorrow. Sarasvatī: I told her. Prabhupāda: You have told her? Sarasvatī: I told her that she's . . . Śyāmasundara is coming very soon. Prabhupāda: Ohhhh, that's nice. (break) . . . men Monday? Acyutānanda: We can send them, but they won't go. Prabhupāda: So if you can make somebody agree, then he is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow. Acyutānanda: But no one will agree to leave you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Acyutānanda: Letter from the press, regarding my songbook. Prabhupāda: Oh. Acyutānanda: So I don't know what to do. Nobody would like to go, to leave you. We would like to go, but we wouldn't want to miss your classes. Gurudāsa: That is so. Prabhupāda: So you can make one condition, that if you return us, we can go at eight or nine, but you must return us by four. Then we can go. Make this condition. Instead of saying no, make some condition. Acyutānanda: It's the 29th? Gurudāsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: And he's coming tomorrow? Prabhupāda: I have asked him to come day after tomorrow. He comes generally at about ten. Acyutānanda: But I heard that last year we went and it was not a very big function. (break) I wrote that letter to this Lalitānanda about this Jāhnavī . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Acyutānanda: Jāhnavī*-sampradāya. *Prabhupāda: Jāhnavī*-sampradāya? Oh, yes, yes. Acyutānanda: So they don't want to put it in Back to Godhead because I used the word "infantile, naive, undereducated and incompetent," and that's considered most ungentlemanly. Devotee (2): They do not like publishing . . . (indistinct) . . . articles. Acyutānanda: But Prabhupāda says fools and rascals and . . . Devotee (2): I have written so many articles in the past two years, and one has been published in two years. Prabhupāda: For Back to Godhead ? Devotee (2): Back to Godhead , yes. They say no one can understand them. *Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . from Subala dāsa Mahārāja that they have received his letter on September 16th and I have requested Karandhara to send him one Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Devotee (2): Karandhara has already said no. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: Boi ta kothay pelen? (Where have you got the book?) Guest: . . . Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Mahārāja. Prabhupada: Oh, ta amake dekhaben. (Oh, then you show it to me.) (break) Prabhupada: . . . janmasthan. (. . . birthplace.) Guest: . . . pashe. (. . . near it.) Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: . . . pashe (. . . near it.) Prabhupada: Accha. (Okay.) Guest: Ek sho panch number . . . (At number 105 . . .) (break) (end) Room Conversation -- October 27, 1972, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: So these people, the sahajiyās, they have become dogs and hogs. Now after this life, (indistinct). For their sinful activities they have become dogs and hogs. Now unconsciously as dogs and hogs they are taking advantage of the Vṛndāvana land. Now they... Now they will become pure devotees. Just like we see in the life of Bharata Mahārāja. So much austerity, and because a little attachment for the deer, the next life he was (indistinct). Yamala*-arjuna, they became trees. But on account of staying in Vṛndāvana, next life (indistinct). So we should be intelligent. Why should we take another chance of becoming hogs and dogs? But that requires intelligence. Ultimately they will be delivered, but it will be delayed by becoming hogs and dogs once(?). Gurudāsa: Acyutānanda Mahārāja said that he has heard that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī has said that these turtles in Vṛndāvana were previously caste gosvāmīs. Prabhupāda: Yes. So... Gurudāsa: It's a result of trying to cheat māyā then? Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: It's a result of trying to... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... They are showing that "We are gosvāmī," but doing all nonsense. This is cheating. Like this man, he is thinking that "Somehow or other I will get his money through Dāmodara, and I shall drink and everything (indistinct)." It is not cheating? Gosvāmī means one who has full control over the senses. That is gosvāmī. But he is taking the title of gosvāmī but he has no control over his senses. That is cheating. So you cannot cheat that way, Kṛṣṇa or māyā. Whatever little success I have got, I have tried always not to cheat Kṛṣṇa or māyā. That's all. Gurudāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise Bon Mahārāja was deputed, but he wanted to cheat. He thought that "I shall go to England and become. When I come back, I shall advertise myself, 'I have preached in this way and that way and that way' and exploit." Just like Vivekananda. They are all cheaters. Vivekananda had no knowledge even to..., knowledge to give. He was such a rascal. And he went to America and he picked up three women, that's all. That is his achievement. One Sister Nigrita(?), his private secretary, that's all. This is all cheating. If you do not know... They go for wine and women, that's all. All these swamis they are going now these days. Saccidananda, that long*-haired man, he is also being sued for something. Who was telling me? Gurudāsa: That Devasa(?) boy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this cheating process is going on. But you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa or māyā, that is not possible. It is gosvāmī, that is (indistinct) Don't make compromise that somehow or other just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everything will be done. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Duratyayā. It is very difficult to surmount the laws of nature. So how is that achieved? Just like laws of nature are so strict, if you eat more, immediately you get indigestion. So how you can cheat? You can experience. Nature's law is working. Therefore, to become brāhmaṇa means satyam. You know the meaning of satyam? Satyam means truth. The first quality is he is truthful. Satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam āstikyaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. The beginning is satyam. Generally the people in pilgrimages like Vṛndāvana, they have taken this religiousness as a profession to earn money, just like other businessmen do. That is cheating. Generally they do so. In Los Angeles they are keeping the standard given by ourself. At every āratik in early morning, at least 150 men. Even though I am not present, by system, by kīrtana, dancing, offering Deity worship nicely (indistinct). So we have to maintain the standard very strictly. Otherwise it will again become Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple and Bharatpur Mahārāja (indistinct). You will have to find out some customer to sell it. What is the use of starting temple if you do not do it properly? Why should you waste your energy? Better travel and preach. Don't take the risk of starting big, big temple. As soon as the energy is gone, there will be trouble. That Govindajī's temple, that man lost everything because he was cheating. If this man is also cheating, then he will also. Our Tīrtha Mahārāja is cheating, then what is his...? He got so many things but he could not do anything. Now he is after these buildings, that's all. Otherwise, what is his credit? He is not a good preacher. He was at the head of Caitanya Maṭha. How much duty was..., heavy duty he had to preach. But he has no preaching capacity. (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Preaching gives that spiritual energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one must be qualified to preach. If he is a cheater, how he can preach? Gurudāsa: If he's preaching, the qualification will come. Prabhupāda: Yes. If he is sincere, then his capacity will increase. Otherwise, if he wants to cheat, then it will decrease. Gurudāsa: So what is the purpose for very large temples in India? Just for the... *Prabhupāda: Just to attract people to give them spiritual inspiration. That is the purpose of temple. Not that you think that "People will come and give me money and I shall eat and sleep very nicely." Then it will gradually become Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple or any other temple. Bharatpur Mahārāja's house. Gurudāsa: I'm thinking that if we're endeavoring with as much energy to preach and have a modest temple that everyone's energy will be increased, our devotees' and the outsiders'. Prabhupāda: That is the basic principle. If you lose your energy, then it is everything is lost. And to keep the energy intact, you must be very strict in following the principles. Gurudāsa: Subala Mahārāja was joking with me that I am wanting to preach but instead I am just thinking of steel and cement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Subala Mahārāja was joking with me that I am wanting to preach, but instead I am thinking about steel and cement and bricks. *Prabhupāda: No. If that steel, cement, and bricks are meant for preaching, then it is all right. But if there is difficulty, then sometimes we become absorbed in steel*-cement. Steel-cement is not bad, provided it is meant for preaching. That is also spiritual. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgya. But because we are materialistic, sometimes steel and cement attracts us more than Kṛṣṇa. So this Bombay affair is giving me a little depression. Because so highly thought of, now these people they do not want to stay there. Just like this Mahaṁsa, Dinanātha, they do not wish to return. Something has to be done. Gurudāsa: Actually it is not only one or two isolated cases. Prabhupāda: There are many. I have studied all of them. Gurudāsa: If it was one or two isolated cases, one can think maybe it is personal difficulty, but it is many cases. Prabhupāda: No, this is due to mismanagement. It is due to mismanagement. Proper leader. (end) Conversation -- November 1, 1972, Vrndavana Acyutānanda: Gauracandra Gosvāmī is telling Prabhupāda that ah, that it started raining just so that the kīrtana would happen in front of Dāmodara and then it stopped raining so that we could go back into the samādhi grounds. Actually he was just trying to get us out of the front courtyard. Prabhupāda said: "Wherever there is . . . whenever there is kīrtana it is in front of Lord Dāmodara." Ānandamoya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I would like to ask you if it is possible to receive initiation from you. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that question? Devotee: Again? Louder. Ānandamoya: I would like to ask you if it is possible if you can give me initiation? Prabhupāda: Initiation. Devotee: Initiation. Ānandamoya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming? Ānandamoya: I have been six months in Calcutta, my home is in France and I met some members of the society some of the disciples in Bihar. I was touring in India with . . . (indistinct) . . . for one year about and fortunately I met some members there near . . . (indistinct) . . . Madhura. Madhuriya . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Madhupur. Ānandamoya: Madhupur. Guru Kṛipa: Madhuroy. Prabhupāda: Madurai. Guru Kṛipa: It was a large pandal function. Prabhupāda: He has come with you? Guru Kṛipa: Yes we met him there. (break) Yaśodānandana: . . . with us to Cuttack and Māyāpura. And he lived for three. He tried for some time then he followed all the principles and regulations for the last six months and he shaved up his head after a few days and he has been keeping on regularly doing preaching outside every day. Prabhupāda: So you recommend him? Gurudasa: Yes we recommend him. Yaśodānandana: (indistinct) . . . serious. Prabhupāda: Then . . . (indistinct) Gurudasa: Bhavānanda has also recommended him. Yaśodānandana: Also . . . (indistinct) . . . has been initiated by Your Divine Grace a few months ago or a year ago and I think he's very much fit for brāhmin . . . (indistinct) . . . Gāyatrī. Prabhupāda: So where is he? Yaśodānandana: A tall boy, Pāñcajanya very tall, tall boy, Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: he's the tall boy Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: very serious . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah where he is now? Yaśodānandana: He is now (break) Mahāṁsa: Can you tell us something about the philosophy of . . . is there any difference in the philosophies of the four sampradāyas ? *Prabhupāda: Not very. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has summarised all the Vaiṣṇava philosophies in acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva . Simultaneously one and difference. Some of the philosophers they say māyā and Kṛṣṇa they are different. Some of them says māyā although different is attached with . . . is Kṛṣṇa's . . . *Māyā is Kṛṣṇa's energy therefore different and non*-different. Śuddha-advaita, dvaita-advaita, viśiṣṭa-advaita , Madhvācārya dvaita-vāda. Then Rāmānujācārya viśiṣṭa-advaita , Nimbārka dvaita-advaita , in this way there are . . . practically all of them are worshippers of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. There is not very much difference but little distinction. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has summarised all of them acintya-bhedābheda-tattva —inconceivable one and different simultaneously. Māyā is different from Kṛṣṇa at the same time not different from Kṛṣṇa. Because māyā has no separate existence, therefore not different from Kṛṣṇa. But māyā when she plays differently . . . different from Kṛṣṇa. Just like jail department is the criminal department of the government. Therefore this department is not different from the government but that does not mean the government is criminal. This is the way to understand it. Criminal department is not different from government but that does not mean government is criminal. Similarly māyā is not different from Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is under māyā . Mahāṁsa: He is controlling māyā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got connection with māyā as controller and we have got connection with māyā as controlled, Mahāṁsa: Controlled. *Prabhupāda: . . . that is the difference. In the broader sense nothing is different from Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na ( cā ) haṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4) "Everything is resting on Me but I am not there." *The same example, the criminal department he is resting on the government but the government is not criminal. This is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva , simultaneously one and different—inconceivable by us. That viśiṣṭādvaita , Rāmānujācārya, he says that, "God māyā and the jīva all together are the absolute truth." That is called viśiṣṭādvaita . *Mahāṁsa: That is the Rāmānujācārya*-sampradāya? *Prabhupāda: Yes Rāmānuja. And Madhvācārya dvaita*-vāda , "God is different from jīvas and māyā ," that is dvaita-vāda . And someone dvaita-advaita , different and non-different like acintya-bhedābheda . In this way different ācāryas have explained the same thing in a very explicit way according to their . . . but all of them are Vaiṣṇava philosophy. *Acyutānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are all these sampradāyas still bona*-fide at the present time? Prabhupāda: No some of them . . . (indistinct) . . . now Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas there are many Māyāvādīs. (laughs) There are many Māyāvādīs, this Bābājīs they are almost Māyāvādīs. Sahajiyās. Pañcadraviḍa: In the Bhāgavata it is said that, "Just as the birds fly in the air according to their capacity so the great sages may explain the absolute truth according to their realisation." So is this why the different ācāryas they explain different concepts? Prabhupāda: Not different concepts, in different ways. Pañcadraviḍa: Is it because of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It can be understandable that I have already explained. That the viśiṣṭādvaita, māyā jīva and Kṛṣṇa are taken together, they are one. Diversity in unity, they are all one but there is diversity. The University department, the criminal department, the judicial department there are so many departments of the government but altogether they are one. This is viśiṣṭādvaita . (break) the Vedic literature say, eko brahma dvitīya nāsti , "There is only one Brahma." sarvaṁ hy etad brahma (Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad 2), "Everything is Brahma." It is not difficult to understand that this is also government but government is not there. Not that because that if you say this criminal department is also government, that does not mean that the whole governments are criminal. Government is not at all criminal they have nothing to do with the criminality but the department is government. What do you think? How do you adjust? Pañcadraviḍa: Well Mahāprabhu he has explained it. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pañcadraviḍa: Very clearly. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the government maintains the criminal department it should not be understood that government is under criminal department, because Kṛṣṇa maintains māyā that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is under . . . māyāṁ ca tad*-apāśrayām ( SB 1.7.4). Vyāsadeva saw māyā and Kṛṣṇa together. The māyā is the backside, apāśrayām. Adharma, adharma —irreligiosity is described as the backside of Kṛṣṇa. As I have got my backside, dharma , adharma . The front side of Kṛṣṇa is called dharma , the backside of Kṛṣṇa is adharma . That means adharma is also there in Kṛṣṇa and then . . . because adharma is also maintained by Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is not adharma . *(break) Kṛṣṇa is not adharma the Māyāvādīs philosophers say: "There is no difference between māyā and Kṛṣṇa." There is so many different philosophical opinions but we take Caitanya Mahāprabhu's conclusion: acintya*-bhedābheda , simultaneously one and different. Because māyā is maintained by Kṛṣṇa therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and māyā , but still Kṛṣṇa is not under māyā . What is the difficulty to understand? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda when . . . Prabhupāda: Another example can be given that now there is darkness but the sun is also there, within this universe the sun is there and the darkness is there but sun is not under darkness. At the present moment the darkness is there and the sun is also there. This darkness means absence of sun so it is relative with sun because there is no sun it is darkness. Therefore the darkness is dependent on sun. The sun is not dependent on the darkness, because there is some barrier, some obstacles, for passing the sunlight on this earth. This earth is now dark, so the darkness has no independent existence. In other words because the sunlight is checked therefore there is darkness. So darkness is not important neither darkness, this darkness can cover the sun. Otherwise darkness is also there and sun is also there but sun is not affected by darkness. We are affected a portion of the fractional part of Kṛṣṇa's body part and parcel, is covered by darkness. They are under material conditions but Kṛṣṇa is never under material conditions. The Māyāvādī philosophers will say: "Because Kṛṣṇa has come before us". (door opens) (aside) What is that? Indian Devotee: (indistinct Hindi) (break) Prabhupāda: "Because Kṛṣṇa has come here therefore He is also in darkness," that is Māyāvādī philosophy. Suppose the governor goes to inspect the jail the business of governor is also prison, because he has come into the jail. So what is the difference between him and them? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11), immediately he is already mūḍhāḥ and he becomes more mūḍhāḥ . He does not know, just like Dr. Radhakrishna says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa but something within Kṛṣṇa." Because he thinks that Kṛṣṇa is just like us. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa and still he dares to write comment on Kṛṣṇa's saying. He becomes more mūḍhāḥ , instead of becoming enlightened he becomes mūḍhāḥ . Without knowing Kṛṣṇa he describes Kṛṣṇa. So we should not take, what is Kṛṣṇa from such mūḍhāḥ . . . (indistinct) . . . Sanātana Gosvāmī has forbidden—not to hear from the avaiṣṇava who does not know Kṛṣṇa. " Avaiṣṇava cannot describe Kṛṣṇa. Not . . . or neither by his description one can understand Kṛṣṇa." Yaśodānandana: What about that Ramakrishna? When I was in South India I met many people they seemed to place so much faith upon him. But seeing this philosophy that they are propounding it is not so much sound. This Ramakrishna, what is the fate of such kind of person? What is the actual fate? Destination? Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna? Yaśodānandana: Hm. Prabhupāda: Mission? Yaśodānandana: Hm. Prabhupāda: So if you go to a quock . Devotees: (laugh) . . . (indistinct) Guru Kṛipa: Quack? (laugher) Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune there are many doctors but . . . if you still go to a quack. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? That is your misfortune, why do you go to a quack? If there are so many doctors. (laughter) Yaśodānandana: He has misled so many people. Prabhupāda: Everyone, misleading is there already but why should you be misled? Yaśodānandana: I am not misled. Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the person who is misled. And his question is, "What is the value of this." You are misled, he is misleader, what to talk about this? And if we talk and if we tell the truth then people will be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Hitopadeśa 3.4), "You cannot pacify a rascal by giving good instruction. He will be more angry. Better avoid." Gurudasa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudasa: You said: "By his description he cannot be understood." Do you mean by adhokṣaja ? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudasa: You said: "By his description he cannot be understood." Prabhupāda: By his description. Gurudasa: You were just saying that. Prabhupāda: Adhokṣaja means you cannot describe, by your sense perception. We describe that this is a thing, we can describe this is white this is . . . solid, this is just like, so many things we can say by seeing by tasting. Kṛṣṇa is not like that, therefore His name is Adhokṣaja . Because you can describe this things material because it is material, but Kṛṣṇa is not material, therefore by our material senses we cannot describe. Whatever we are describing about Kṛṣṇa we are describing from Kṛṣṇa. Not that by our knowledge we are describing—therefore He is Adhokṣaja . He cannot be described by my blunt senses. That is not. We describe Kṛṣṇa as He describes Himself. We don't describe by our sense perception. We say Kṛṣṇa is the supreme because we understand from Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme."Now argument may be that everyone can say: "I am supreme." Then everyone should be accepted by his word, no. It must be confirmed by the ācāryas that is paramparā system. Kṛṣṇa says: "Supreme" and Kṛṣṇa is confirmed as supreme by Vyāsadeva, by Nārada, by the ācāryas , by Caitanya so we are poor fellow we understand in this way. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says "I am supreme," and He is accepted by our predecessor ācāryas so where is the difficulty? Hm? Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I raise a question? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: In the fourth chapter in the fifth Canto it explains about Vyāsadeva's appearance and it says that when Vyāsa appeared there was an interchange of the millennium where the third millennium appeared before the second, ah and I never understood that. *Prabhupāda: Dvāpara . dvāparānte , dvāparānte means in the beginning of the Dvāpara*-yuga. Dvāparānte . . . (indistinct) Devotee: It says that, that ah, there was an interchange of the millennium's. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: Where the third millennium appeared before the second millennium. Prabhupāda: Hm . . . yes. Devotee: When Vyāsa made his appearance. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . dvāpara means the second millennium, and tretā means the third millennium. So in the beginning of dvāpara He appeared, ante. The example is given, just like the tree begins from the root and the top of the tree is called top—but actually there is no top, the top is the root. So it is beginning from there, in this way there are some descriptions. (aside) How long it will remain so? No light? (break) *Devotee: . . . the founder of Raghu*-vaṁśa so I just wanted to. I was wondering, you know we chant this prayer from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, rāma rāghava, rāma rāghava . Prabhupāda: Rāma rāghava. Devotee: Rāma rāghava, rāma rāghava. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Devotee: That rāghava does that mean raghu*-vaṁśa. raghu dynasty? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāghava, raghu from raghu rāghava comes. Devotee: So which end Balarāma or Lord Rāmacandra? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Is that prayer to Balarāma or is it to Lord Rāmacandra? The Rāma of the raghu ? Prabhupāda: No when you say rāma rāghava , means Lord Rāmacandra. Therefore it is said rāma rāghava. Devotee: rāma rāghava Acyutānanda: In Hyderabad that was a conjecture that Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. Prabhupāda: Ah. (aside) Why don't you open that? Eh? Hm? Acyutānanda: That Hare Rāma does it mean Rādhā Ramana or does it mean Balarāma? Prabhupāda: No. Rāma. Hare Rāma. Rāma means—who enjoys, enjoyer, ramante. Ramante yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani iti rāma (Cc Madhya 9.29). Rāma means Ramaṇa also—enjoyer. Rāma means Lord Rāmacandra, Rāma means Balarāma so different positions we can accept. Different. Devotee: Also someone . . . *Prabhupāda: You say Rādhā*-Ramaṇa. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You can say Rādhā*-Rāma—the same meaning. Rādhā-Ramaṇa or Rādhā-Rāma now if even Lord Rāma can come Rādhā. *Acyutānanda: Many people say that Rādhārānī does not appear in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, there is no mention. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. (break) I once heard you explain to somebody where this is mentioned exactly. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ārādhyate, anayārādhyate , when the gopīs saw that Kṛṣṇa had been separated with Rādhārānī then they understood that She worships Kṛṣṇa more than anyone. So the gopī who worships Kṛṣṇa, satisfies Kṛṣṇa more than others that is Rādhārānī. Ārādhate, ārādhyate it is Rādhā, Rādhā, ārādhyate . Devotee: Hmm . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So the gopī who worships Rādhārānī more than the other gopīs he sees Rādhārānī. So why, how can you say that there is no mention of Rādhārānī? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have to follow. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not some of the people, we follow the Gosvāmīs the ācāryas . (whispering) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about three months I wrote to you about a man who wanted to donate some land to us in Bihar? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: About 25 acres. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: He's just written to me again today about that. He says: "My dear Śrī Swamiji, I received your letter dated the 21st of September 1972 along with the documents enclosed there with. I send you my constitution rules, regulations, memorandum of association . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: . . . tax exemptions form. I will be extremely happy to donate land for construction of the temple, its upkeep and devotional activities of your society. The government of Bihar has in the meanwhile promulgated an ordinance banning transfer of lands. I however hope that the difficulties created by this ordinance through Lord Kṛṣṇa's grace can be overcome. The land can be transferred with the permission of the collector Sahabad but some one on behalf of the society will have to approach him for this commission. I would be obliged if you could send me a list of life members of the society. Could you also send me a copy of the latest annual statement of income and expenditures of your . . . of the society. This will enable me to have some idea of the society's financial position and it's activities. Yours in the service of the Lord, L. Dayal." Prabhupāda: First of all find out man, who is managing there? Devotee: That is the problem. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can have many lands like that . . . 25 acres of land? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We can accept land anywhere provided we have got bona*-fide preachers. That is our mission, we can start a centre anywhere provided we can preach. That is our mission, it is not our mission to own some land. What we shall do with the land? Devotee: The land would simply be for farming and earning some income . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Anyway. Income is not our mission, our mission is to preach. Income is required to maintain, so suppose we get some land we must be a preaching centre there. Even we do farm we cannot avoid our preaching work. Devotee: This land is situated by a small village it is not a populated area. Prabhupāda: It may be. It may not be a populated here . . . area, but we must have a centre so that people may come there. Devotee: Yes he wants a small temple there so that the local people may come and benefit by the temple activities. Prabhupāda: Therefore we require a preacher. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: At least one two preachers. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then we . . . so who is prepared to go there? And then preach you do not know the language. How you will preach? They won't be able to understand English. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you will preach? First of all find out a preacher, 1, 2, 3, 4 preachers that's it. Then we can manage. Otherwise what is the use of taking land? Preaching must be there, or are you going to plough on that land? (laughter) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is the use? Acyutānanda: Jayapatāka. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Jayapatāka Mahārāja has been there. *Prabhupāda: Jayapatāka . . . (indistinct) . . . side*-by-side he is supervising the building construction and at the same time . . . that's nice. But he has not gone there to plough. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is not his business. Acyutānanda: Somebody said Jayapatāka Ali. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughs) who said? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Tamal Kṛṣṇa Goswami. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Ali ? *Acyutānanda: Because all the Mohammedan's there, there name is Ali. And there the culture is agriculturalist. So he is ploughing next to them side*-by-side. So Tamal Kṛṣṇa Goswami said Jayapatāka Ali. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Alī means the gopī . Acyutānanda: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Then Tamal Kṛṣṇa has blessed him to become one of the gopīs. (laughter) Acyutānanda: Yeah. *Gurudasa: Alī*-Kṛṣṇa like Kāliya-Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yeah. Yaśodānandana: What is the diff . . . *Prabhupāda: Jaya rādhā*-mādhava . . . Acyutānanda: One of the Mohammedan farmers there . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: . . . was describing how he met Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. He used to walk into the Mohammedan village and he said when he was a little boy he patted him on the head. Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī patted him on the head. And he said that, "Wherever Bhaktisiddhānta used to sit down it seemed like the whole scenery was centred around him. He was so magnificent." He was telling. He tied up his cloth like a sannyāsī and he showed how he used to walk into the village. "He wouldn't look at anything directly but he would be looking at a distance," he was explaining. Pañcadraviḍa: I understand they liked him very much because he would even take water from the hands of Mohammedan's . . . Prabhupāda: But what is their attitude towards our men? Acyutānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Acyutānanda: In fact this Mohammedan's father owned the land which is on Śrīvāsa-āṅgan and he gave it to Bhaktisiddhānta free because they had lots of land at that time. So he gave it to Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda: So they are coming and taking prasādam ? Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Both men and women? Acyutānanda: Yes. They say Hare Kṛṣṇa to us. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. That is our mission chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam and go home. (laughter) Prabhupāda: . . . and if you like you can stay with us, as you like. Acyutānanda: Ah. Devotee: It is very sublime. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: It is very sublime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Before starting this movement I was always thinking that their Communist Party, there are so many political parties and we cannot form any party? Our method is so nice: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa dance and take prasādam . What is the difficulty in forming a party? Hare Kṛṣṇa party, so now it has come in formation to expand this formation. Please come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa dance and take prasādam . What is the difficulty? And gradually when he is settled up he will understand the philosophy whatever . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning he will not understand. What is that, a mouse? Devotees: A mouse. Yaśodānandana: It sat under your feet then she went away. (laughter) *Pañcadraviḍa: How does a mahā*-bhāgavata see this kind of a mouse? Prabhupāda: A living entity. Pañcadraviḍa: As a part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh yes and actually it is so. He has got a different dress only. Suppose there are many gentlemen we don't see the dress you see so many gentlemen that is all. Don't discriminate them because one has got different dress from another. Is it not? *Similarly, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) paṇḍitāḥ who is learned he sees everyone is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel but he is playing differently, just like an actor on the stage by different dress playing . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise they are one. Mahāṁsa: When the part and parcel is acting very much in ignorance and suppose like for example it is trying to take away your prasādam or it is trying to bite you or something like that then . . . Prabhupāda: You take care. Pañcadraviḍa: You can defend? Prabhupāda: That's all. But you must see that he is part and parcel. Just like your child suppose he is doing something mischief do you discard him? You take care of him. And you take care that the child may not commit any mischief. That is your duty but you cannot say, "Because this child is creating some disturbance cut his throat." You cannot say that. Mahāṁsa: Whew. So if there are mosquitoes who are troubling. Prabhupāda: Same way. Mahāṁsa: Same . . . Prabhupāda: If there is mosquitoes you have a mosquito carton but you cannot kill them. That is the principal. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyone, you take precautions you have got human brain, you take precaution that they may not create mischief. But they by nature they have got a body of like that—but because they have a different body you cannot kill them. Although it is said when one is an aggressor, you can kill. But these animals although they aggress they have no intelligence. The same example, a child is committing mischief. Because it has no intelligence and because it has no intelligence therefore you cannot kill. That should be our position, these animals even ferocious animals, they are all different parts and parcels of God Kṛṣṇa, you should see like that. But because they are under different . . . if you look they are all divine. So if you know them that they are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa but behave with them differently as far as possible not by killing. Killing means, he has been given a body to undergo the imprisonment for certain time if you kill then you prolong the time he has to again accept that body. You become criminal therefore because you are checking in his business. By nature's way he has been engaged in a certain type of business if you kill, he is not killed but he has to take another body. Therefore you are checking his progress, just like you cannot interfere with anyone prisoner that is criminal. *So many laws of nature, laws of God they are so fine that imperceptibly we are committing so many sinful activities but if you keep yourself surrendered to Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness Kṛṣṇa protects you but you become subjected to criminality, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣya (BG 18.66). *Suppose you are walking on the street you are killing so many animals, but a devotee he is protected by Kṛṣṇa who is non*-devotee is becoming subjected to that criminal action--killing. That is the difference. You are killing also, an ordinary man also killing but you are killing not knowingly, you are going on Kṛṣṇa's business for preaching. So you are killing but because you are going to Kṛṣṇa's business Kṛṣṇa is protecting you from the sinful reaction. That is the difference, but the sinful reaction is there, either the devotee or non-devotee. But the devotee willingly does not do any sinful activity. If there is some sinful activity in the course of his business then he is protected by Kṛṣṇa, that is the difference. Therefore the conclusion is to save oneself from all kinds of nonsense sinful activities one must become Kṛṣṇa consciousness otherwise he is subject to criminality. This is the conclusion. Unless you become Kṛṣṇa conscious he is subject to so many criminal activities he suffers. Even knowingly or unknowingly. So, kṛṣṇa nāma koro bhai ar sab miche, palai bar path nai Yama ache piche. (Oh brother, please chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, there is no escape as Yamarāja is waiting behind.) Yamarāja is noting down, "Ah he has done . . . (indistinct) . . . sinful activities you have to punished." You do not know, just like the police takes note of your car, next day you have to go to the court, "Oh I did not know." And it happened. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So we have no other alternative than to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, otherwise you will be foiled by police actions so many ways, so many times. Tell them frankly. Mahāṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That if you don’t become Kṛṣṇa conscious then your life is doomed. However you may be learned and very scholarly, palai bar path nai Yama ache piche. (There is no escape as Yamarāja is waiting behind.) He is noting down. Devotee: One might say a devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Neither you can commit sinful activities because Kṛṣṇa is . . . Devotee: Sin. Yes. Prabhupāda: No that is also another sin. *Devotee: Aparādha to the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you protection for your criminal activities which are being done in the course of executing Kṛṣṇa's order or unknowingly, that is not your fault. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving protection. *But if you think, "Let me do something criminal for my sense gratification Kṛṣṇa is there he will protect me," oh that is the greatest criminality. Namno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ , that is not excused. Mahāṁsa: Sometimes a devotee falls into māyā , does Kṛṣṇa protect him then? Prabhupāda: Yes. He'll protect. If he is actually . . . but if he is cheating Kṛṣṇa. Mahāṁsa: Knowingly? Prabhupāda: Knowingly, he is going to some sinful activities and he is cheating his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, "Oh I'm going to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then that is cheating, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa that is not possible, that is not possible. Mahāṁsa: He is only cheating himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu he wanted to cheat Kṛṣṇa he'll not die, but he cheated himself. He forgot to ask for one benediction that, "I shall not die on the lap of Hiraṇya." (laughter) Devotee: Nṛsiṁhadeva. Prabhupāda: Err . . . Nṛsiṁhadeva. That he forgot. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa made him forgetful, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca . (BG 15.15) While he was speaking playing tricks, Kṛṣṇa played a trick, that he forgot to ask for this benediction, apohanaṁ ca. So this is the explanation, people ask that how Kṛṣṇa makes one forgetful? He has got some business to make him forgetful. It is not without purpose, just like Hiraṇyakaśipu was forgetful to ask this benediction that, "I shall not die even on the lap of Nṛsiṁhadeva." That how you can do? There are so many tricks of Kṛṣṇa and how many you can remember? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Is not possible. Mahāṁsa: (indistinct) . . . on the hand or anywhere I heard. Prabhupāda: But these rascals they think that, "We are more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa." Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is illusion. He is never more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is his position. But he thinks that he is more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is illusion. He thinks that by this way I shall play a trick with Kṛṣṇa but that is impossible. You cannot play a trick with Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. You cannot, you must be very clean and open to Kṛṣṇa's sincere servant that is our business, then all protection will be there. Devotee: What if someone wants to do service to Kṛṣṇa but is it okay for me to do this service if I must exploit my Godbrother? There's no need . . . does it matter if I hurt my Godbrother, if Kṛṣṇa is protecting me, there will not be any reaction? Prabhupāda: Well how can you exploit your Godbrother? He is also engaged in some Kṛṣṇa's business, so how can you exploit? Your Godbrother is not an ordinary human being, he is also serving the Lord. How you can exploit another servitor for your advancement? That is sense gratification. There is no question of exploiting, as soon as there is question of exploiting that is sense gratification. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as exploitation, simply cooperation and appreciation. That is spiritual world. Instead of exploitation there should be exaltation. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: "Oh my Godbrother is so nice, he is doing so much service." This is not envy, in the material world if somebody does something more than oneself, he is envious. "Oh he is doing nice." There is no enviousness there is open acceptance so, "My Godbrother or this devotee is so nice, he is doing so nicely how he can do it?" That is appreciation and exaltation, that is Vaikuṇṭha world. You cannot become envious. Mahāṁsa: Is there also competition in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mahāṁsa: Competition? Prabhupāda: Yes competition just like here, "Oh . . . (indistinct) . . . this devotee has advanced so much I cannot do, let me follow his footsteps so then I can do." That's not competition. Asun. Kothay chilen etodin? (Please come. Where had you been all these days?) (break) Indian man: . . . asustha. (sick.) Prabhupāda: Buro hoye asche. Sharir sob . . . bolchena. (Getting old. The body is . . . not telling that.) Indian man: Oh. Prabhupāda: Khali Rupa gosvamir mato ekta choto kapar porlei rupanuga hoy na. (You don't become Rupanuga just by wearing a short cloth like Rupa Goswami.) Indian man: Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Tader ye samasta katha seguli sob mante hoy. (You need to follow their instructions.) Indian man: Mante hoy. (Yes, I need to follow.) Prabhupāda: Tobe rupanuga hoy. (Then you become Rupanuga.) Indian man: . . . (indistinct Bengali) (break) Prabhupāda: Er chobi ache. (I have his photo.) (break) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Besh bhalo. (Very good.) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Eije . . . ei Philippine er dol. (The group from the Philippines.) Indian man: Huh. Prabhupāda: Era juto sob . . . tin mile . . . chere esche . . . ora. (All the shoes . . . three miles . . . left here . . . it's they.) Indian man: Tomar meye . . . (indistinct) . . . Yamuna athaba Mahaprabhu. (Your daughter . . . (indistinct) . . . Yamuna or Mahaprabhu.) Prabhupāda: Huh. Indian man: Yamunar oi par tay sabai khub sundar sundar. (On the other side of Yamuna all their faces are beautiful) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Sakole sundar. (Everyone is beautiful.) (break) Prabhupāda: Sometime maybe. Gurudasa: Alternating current. Prabhupāda: Neh. Gurudasa: Alternating on and off. Indian man: Prabhupader photo (The photo of Prabhupāda) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: What? Indian Devotee: Photo, photo. Of Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Have you got any photograph of my Guru Mahārāja? Indian Devotee: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Galpo ache, yes no very good. Janen? (Do you know there is a story—yes, no, very good?) Indian Devotee: Han. Prabhupāda: Janen? Galpo? (You know the story?) Indian Devotee: Han? Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. Indian Devotee: (laughs) (laughter) Indian Devotee: Asun, basun, plet anun, glass anun. (Please come sit here. Bring some plates, bring glasses.) (break) Prabhupāda: I shall speak in both Hindi and Bengali. Ekjan khansana, se deshe yabe. (One butler, he was to go to his village home.) One servant of the European . . . he was to go to home, so. Tar ekta badli dite hobe, sei chakar ra sob bodli dito na? (He was to make one substitute ready who will work in his place during his leave.) So he has to give one man to represent him to work. So he says that, "How can I work for you?" Ami tomar jaygate ki kore kaj korbo? Amito engreji janina. (How can I work in your place? I don't know English.) “I will teach you, I will teach you English don’t bother.” Ami shikhiye debo. (I will teach you.) "Now what is that?" Tinte katha sekhabo. (You just learn three words.) "Just learn three words." "What is that?" Ki? (What?) "Yes, no, very good." (laughter) Devotee: Very simple. Indian Devotee: Yes, no, very good. Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. Sir yeta bolbe tumi "yes" bolbe. Tarpor ya bolbe "no". Tarpor ya bolbe "very good". (Whatever sir will ask, just reply "Yes". After that, whatever he replies you say "No". After that, whatever he says you reply "Very good") So he taught him three words that, “When you’re master will say something first you say: 'Yes' ". Khali "yes". (Only "Yes".) Tarpor yodi kichu bole, bolbe "no". Tarpore yodi . . . (If he says something more, then you say: "No", even after that.) . . . "And if he again speaks something then say: 'Very good' ". So he learned three words, yes no very good. So after, o yakhan cole geche. Ekdin saheber ghar theke kichu jinish khuje pacche na. (so when that person went on leave, one day his boss was searching for something in his room.) He was missing something so he asked the servant, "Where is my that thing, you have taken?" "Yes" (laughter) Eke jijnes korlo yei, ami ei jinishta dekhte pacchina tumi niyecho ki? Se bollo "yes". Mane to janena. (He asked him, "I couldn't find that thing, have you taken that?" He replied "Yes." He doesn't know the meaning.) Yes. He does not know, "Now if you have taken it then return it here". "No". (laughter) Yodi niye thako niye aso ekhane rakho. "No". (If you have taken that then bring it here. " No".) "Then I’m giving you to the Police." "Very good." (laughter) So when the Police came. Yakhan Police elo, takhon se . . . eta ki? Takhan bollo yao tumi er sange. To eto katha chilo na. Amito cakri korte eschilam. (When the Police came, he thought," What is this?" They said go with the Police now, and he was thinking this was not supposed to happen, so I came here to do my service.) I came here to serve now am going to the Police. So, yes no very good. (laughter) Formally when the Britishers came here they required assistance they could not bring so many Britishers. They had to manage office so any man, simply, "Yes, no, very good," he would get a service. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 1, 1972, Vrndavana Acyutānanda: Gauracandra Gosvāmī is telling Prabhupāda that ah, that it started raining just so that the kīrtana would happen in front of Dāmodara and then it stopped raining so that we could go back into the samādhi grounds. Actually he was just trying to get us out of the front courtyard. Prabhupāda said: "Wherever there is . . . whenever there is kīrtana it is in front of Lord Dāmodara." Ānandamoya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I would like to ask you if it is possible to receive initiation from you. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that question? Devotee: Again? Louder. Ānandamoya: I would like to ask you if it is possible if you can give me initiation? Prabhupāda: Initiation. Devotee: Initiation. Ānandamoya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming? Ānandamoya: I have been six months in Calcutta, my home is in France and I met some members of the society some of the disciples in Bihar. I was touring in India with . . . (indistinct) . . . for one year about and fortunately I met some members there near . . . (indistinct) . . . Madhura. Madhuriya . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Madhupur. Ānandamoya: Madhupur. Guru Kṛipa: Madhuroy. Prabhupāda: Madurai. Guru Kṛipa: It was a large pandal function. Prabhupāda: He has come with you? Guru Kṛipa: Yes we met him there. (break) Yaśodānandana: . . . with us to Cuttack and Māyāpura. And he lived for three. He tried for some time then he followed all the principles and regulations for the last six months and he shaved up his head after a few days and he has been keeping on regularly doing preaching outside every day. Prabhupāda: So you recommend him? Gurudasa: Yes we recommend him. Yaśodānandana: (indistinct) . . . serious. Prabhupāda: Then . . . (indistinct) Gurudasa: Bhavānanda has also recommended him. Yaśodānandana: Also . . . (indistinct) . . . has been initiated by Your Divine Grace a few months ago or a year ago and I think he's very much fit for brāhmin . . . (indistinct) . . . Gāyatrī. Prabhupāda: So where is he? Yaśodānandana: A tall boy, Pāñcajanya very tall, tall boy, Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: he's the tall boy Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: very serious . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah where he is now? Yaśodānandana: He is now (break) Mahāṁsa: Can you tell us something about the philosophy of . . . is there any difference in the philosophies of the four sampradāyas ? *Prabhupāda: Not very. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has summarised all the Vaiṣṇava philosophies in acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva . Simultaneously one and difference. Some of the philosophers they say māyā and Kṛṣṇa they are different. Some of them says māyā although different is attached with . . . is Kṛṣṇa's . . . *Māyā is Kṛṣṇa's energy therefore different and non*-different. Śuddha-advaita, dvaita-advaita, viśiṣṭa-advaita , Madhvācārya dvaita-vāda. Then Rāmānujācārya viśiṣṭa-advaita , Nimbārka dvaita-advaita , in this way there are . . . practically all of them are worshippers of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. There is not very much difference but little distinction. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has summarised all of them acintya-bhedābheda-tattva —inconceivable one and different simultaneously. Māyā is different from Kṛṣṇa at the same time not different from Kṛṣṇa. Because māyā has no separate existence, therefore not different from Kṛṣṇa. But māyā when she plays differently . . . different from Kṛṣṇa. Just like jail department is the criminal department of the government. Therefore this department is not different from the government but that does not mean the government is criminal. This is the way to understand it. Criminal department is not different from government but that does not mean government is criminal. Similarly māyā is not different from Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is under māyā . Mahāṁsa: He is controlling māyā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got connection with māyā as controller and we have got connection with māyā as controlled, Mahāṁsa: Controlled. *Prabhupāda: . . . that is the difference. In the broader sense nothing is different from Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na ( cā ) haṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4) "Everything is resting on Me but I am not there." *The same example, the criminal department he is resting on the government but the government is not criminal. This is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva , simultaneously one and different—inconceivable by us. That viśiṣṭādvaita , Rāmānujācārya, he says that, "God māyā and the jīva all together are the absolute truth." That is called viśiṣṭādvaita . *Mahāṁsa: That is the Rāmānujācārya*-sampradāya? *Prabhupāda: Yes Rāmānuja. And Madhvācārya dvaita*-vāda , "God is different from jīvas and māyā ," that is dvaita-vāda . And someone dvaita-advaita , different and non-different like acintya-bhedābheda . In this way different ācāryas have explained the same thing in a very explicit way according to their . . . but all of them are Vaiṣṇava philosophy. *Acyutānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are all these sampradāyas still bona*-fide at the present time? Prabhupāda: No some of them . . . (indistinct) . . . now Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas there are many Māyāvādīs. (laughs) There are many Māyāvādīs, this Bābājīs they are almost Māyāvādīs. Sahajiyās. Pañcadraviḍa: In the Bhāgavata it is said that, "Just as the birds fly in the air according to their capacity so the great sages may explain the absolute truth according to their realisation." So is this why the different ācāryas they explain different concepts? Prabhupāda: Not different concepts, in different ways. Pañcadraviḍa: Is it because of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It can be understandable that I have already explained. That the viśiṣṭādvaita, māyā jīva and Kṛṣṇa are taken together, they are one. Diversity in unity, they are all one but there is diversity. The University department, the criminal department, the judicial department there are so many departments of the government but altogether they are one. This is viśiṣṭādvaita . (break) the Vedic literature say, eko brahma dvitīya nāsti , "There is only one Brahma." sarvaṁ hy etad brahma (Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad 2), "Everything is Brahma." It is not difficult to understand that this is also government but government is not there. Not that because that if you say this criminal department is also government, that does not mean that the whole governments are criminal. Government is not at all criminal they have nothing to do with the criminality but the department is government. What do you think? How do you adjust? Pañcadraviḍa: Well Mahāprabhu he has explained it. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pañcadraviḍa: Very clearly. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the government maintains the criminal department it should not be understood that government is under criminal department, because Kṛṣṇa maintains māyā that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is under . . . māyāṁ ca tad*-apāśrayām ( SB 1.7.4). Vyāsadeva saw māyā and Kṛṣṇa together. The māyā is the backside, apāśrayām. Adharma, adharma —irreligiosity is described as the backside of Kṛṣṇa. As I have got my backside, dharma , adharma . The front side of Kṛṣṇa is called dharma , the backside of Kṛṣṇa is adharma . That means adharma is also there in Kṛṣṇa and then . . . because adharma is also maintained by Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is not adharma . *(break) Kṛṣṇa is not adharma the Māyāvādīs philosophers say: "There is no difference between māyā and Kṛṣṇa." There is so many different philosophical opinions but we take Caitanya Mahāprabhu's conclusion: acintya*-bhedābheda , simultaneously one and different. Because māyā is maintained by Kṛṣṇa therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and māyā , but still Kṛṣṇa is not under māyā . What is the difficulty to understand? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda when . . . Prabhupāda: Another example can be given that now there is darkness but the sun is also there, within this universe the sun is there and the darkness is there but sun is not under darkness. At the present moment the darkness is there and the sun is also there. This darkness means absence of sun so it is relative with sun because there is no sun it is darkness. Therefore the darkness is dependent on sun. The sun is not dependent on the darkness, because there is some barrier, some obstacles, for passing the sunlight on this earth. This earth is now dark, so the darkness has no independent existence. In other words because the sunlight is checked therefore there is darkness. So darkness is not important neither darkness, this darkness can cover the sun. Otherwise darkness is also there and sun is also there but sun is not affected by darkness. We are affected a portion of the fractional part of Kṛṣṇa's body part and parcel, is covered by darkness. They are under material conditions but Kṛṣṇa is never under material conditions. The Māyāvādī philosophers will say: "Because Kṛṣṇa has come before us". (door opens) (aside) What is that? Indian Devotee: (indistinct Hindi) (break) Prabhupāda: "Because Kṛṣṇa has come here therefore He is also in darkness," that is Māyāvādī philosophy. Suppose the governor goes to inspect the jail the business of governor is also prison, because he has come into the jail. So what is the difference between him and them? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11), immediately he is already mūḍhāḥ and he becomes more mūḍhāḥ . He does not know, just like Dr. Radhakrishna says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa but something within Kṛṣṇa." Because he thinks that Kṛṣṇa is just like us. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa and still he dares to write comment on Kṛṣṇa's saying. He becomes more mūḍhāḥ , instead of becoming enlightened he becomes mūḍhāḥ . Without knowing Kṛṣṇa he describes Kṛṣṇa. So we should not take, what is Kṛṣṇa from such mūḍhāḥ . . . (indistinct) . . . Sanātana Gosvāmī has forbidden—not to hear from the avaiṣṇava who does not know Kṛṣṇa. " Avaiṣṇava cannot describe Kṛṣṇa. Not . . . or neither by his description one can understand Kṛṣṇa." Yaśodānandana: What about that Ramakrishna? When I was in South India I met many people they seemed to place so much faith upon him. But seeing this philosophy that they are propounding it is not so much sound. This Ramakrishna, what is the fate of such kind of person? What is the actual fate? Destination? Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna? Yaśodānandana: Hm. Prabhupāda: Mission? Yaśodānandana: Hm. Prabhupāda: So if you go to a quock . Devotees: (laugh) . . . (indistinct) Guru Kṛipa: Quack? (laugher) Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune there are many doctors but . . . if you still go to a quack. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? That is your misfortune, why do you go to a quack? If there are so many doctors. (laughter) Yaśodānandana: He has misled so many people. Prabhupāda: Everyone, misleading is there already but why should you be misled? Yaśodānandana: I am not misled. Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the person who is misled. And his question is, "What is the value of this." You are misled, he is misleader, what to talk about this? And if we talk and if we tell the truth then people will be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Hitopadeśa 3.4), "You cannot pacify a rascal by giving good instruction. He will be more angry. Better avoid." Gurudasa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudasa: You said: "By his description he cannot be understood." Do you mean by adhokṣaja ? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudasa: You said: "By his description he cannot be understood." Prabhupāda: By his description. Gurudasa: You were just saying that. Prabhupāda: Adhokṣaja means you cannot describe, by your sense perception. We describe that this is a thing, we can describe this is white this is . . . solid, this is just like, so many things we can say by seeing by tasting. Kṛṣṇa is not like that, therefore His name is Adhokṣaja . Because you can describe this things material because it is material, but Kṛṣṇa is not material, therefore by our material senses we cannot describe. Whatever we are describing about Kṛṣṇa we are describing from Kṛṣṇa. Not that by our knowledge we are describing—therefore He is Adhokṣaja . He cannot be described by my blunt senses. That is not. We describe Kṛṣṇa as He describes Himself. We don't describe by our sense perception. We say Kṛṣṇa is the supreme because we understand from Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme."Now argument may be that everyone can say: "I am supreme." Then everyone should be accepted by his word, no. It must be confirmed by the ācāryas that is paramparā system. Kṛṣṇa says: "Supreme" and Kṛṣṇa is confirmed as supreme by Vyāsadeva, by Nārada, by the ācāryas , by Caitanya so we are poor fellow we understand in this way. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says "I am supreme," and He is accepted by our predecessor ācāryas so where is the difficulty? Hm? Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I raise a question? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: In the fourth chapter in the fifth Canto it explains about Vyāsadeva's appearance and it says that when Vyāsa appeared there was an interchange of the millennium where the third millennium appeared before the second, ah and I never understood that. *Prabhupāda: Dvāpara . dvāparānte , dvāparānte means in the beginning of the Dvāpara*-yuga. Dvāparānte . . . (indistinct) Devotee: It says that, that ah, there was an interchange of the millennium's. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: Where the third millennium appeared before the second millennium. Prabhupāda: Hm . . . yes. Devotee: When Vyāsa made his appearance. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . dvāpara means the second millennium, and tretā means the third millennium. So in the beginning of dvāpara He appeared, ante. The example is given, just like the tree begins from the root and the top of the tree is called top—but actually there is no top, the top is the root. So it is beginning from there, in this way there are some descriptions. (aside) How long it will remain so? No light? (break) *Devotee: . . . the founder of Raghu*-vaṁśa so I just wanted to. I was wondering, you know we chant this prayer from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, rāma rāghava, rāma rāghava . Prabhupāda: Rāma rāghava. Devotee: Rāma rāghava, rāma rāghava. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Devotee: That rāghava does that mean raghu*-vaṁśa. raghu dynasty? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāghava, raghu from raghu rāghava comes. Devotee: So which end Balarāma or Lord Rāmacandra? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Is that prayer to Balarāma or is it to Lord Rāmacandra? The Rāma of the raghu ? Prabhupāda: No when you say rāma rāghava , means Lord Rāmacandra. Therefore it is said rāma rāghava. Devotee: rāma rāghava Acyutānanda: In Hyderabad that was a conjecture that Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. Prabhupāda: Ah. (aside) Why don't you open that? Eh? Hm? Acyutānanda: That Hare Rāma does it mean Rādhā Ramana or does it mean Balarāma? Prabhupāda: No. Rāma. Hare Rāma. Rāma means—who enjoys, enjoyer, ramante. Ramante yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani iti rāma (Cc Madhya 9.29). Rāma means Ramaṇa also—enjoyer. Rāma means Lord Rāmacandra, Rāma means Balarāma so different positions we can accept. Different. Devotee: Also someone . . . *Prabhupāda: You say Rādhā*-Ramaṇa. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You can say Rādhā*-Rāma—the same meaning. Rādhā-Ramaṇa or Rādhā-Rāma now if even Lord Rāma can come Rādhā. *Acyutānanda: Many people say that Rādhārānī does not appear in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, there is no mention. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. (break) I once heard you explain to somebody where this is mentioned exactly. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ārādhyate, anayārādhyate , when the gopīs saw that Kṛṣṇa had been separated with Rādhārānī then they understood that She worships Kṛṣṇa more than anyone. So the gopī who worships Kṛṣṇa, satisfies Kṛṣṇa more than others that is Rādhārānī. Ārādhate, ārādhyate it is Rādhā, Rādhā, ārādhyate . Devotee: Hmm . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So the gopī who worships Rādhārānī more than the other gopīs he sees Rādhārānī. So why, how can you say that there is no mention of Rādhārānī? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have to follow. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not some of the people, we follow the Gosvāmīs the ācāryas . (whispering) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about three months I wrote to you about a man who wanted to donate some land to us in Bihar? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: About 25 acres. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: He's just written to me again today about that. He says: "My dear Śrī Swamiji, I received your letter dated the 21st of September 1972 along with the documents enclosed there with. I send you my constitution rules, regulations, memorandum of association . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: . . . tax exemptions form. I will be extremely happy to donate land for construction of the temple, its upkeep and devotional activities of your society. The government of Bihar has in the meanwhile promulgated an ordinance banning transfer of lands. I however hope that the difficulties created by this ordinance through Lord Kṛṣṇa's grace can be overcome. The land can be transferred with the permission of the collector Sahabad but some one on behalf of the society will have to approach him for this commission. I would be obliged if you could send me a list of life members of the society. Could you also send me a copy of the latest annual statement of income and expenditures of your . . . of the society. This will enable me to have some idea of the society's financial position and it's activities. Yours in the service of the Lord, L. Dayal." Prabhupāda: First of all find out man, who is managing there? Devotee: That is the problem. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can have many lands like that . . . 25 acres of land? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We can accept land anywhere provided we have got bona*-fide preachers. That is our mission, we can start a centre anywhere provided we can preach. That is our mission, it is not our mission to own some land. What we shall do with the land? Devotee: The land would simply be for farming and earning some income . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Anyway. Income is not our mission, our mission is to preach. Income is required to maintain, so suppose we get some land we must be a preaching centre there. Even we do farm we cannot avoid our preaching work. Devotee: This land is situated by a small village it is not a populated area. Prabhupāda: It may be. It may not be a populated here . . . area, but we must have a centre so that people may come there. Devotee: Yes he wants a small temple there so that the local people may come and benefit by the temple activities. Prabhupāda: Therefore we require a preacher. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: At least one two preachers. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then we . . . so who is prepared to go there? And then preach you do not know the language. How you will preach? They won't be able to understand English. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you will preach? First of all find out a preacher, 1, 2, 3, 4 preachers that's it. Then we can manage. Otherwise what is the use of taking land? Preaching must be there, or are you going to plough on that land? (laughter) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is the use? Acyutānanda: Jayapatāka. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Jayapatāka Mahārāja has been there. *Prabhupāda: Jayapatāka . . . (indistinct) . . . side*-by-side he is supervising the building construction and at the same time . . . that's nice. But he has not gone there to plough. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is not his business. Acyutānanda: Somebody said Jayapatāka Ali. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughs) who said? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Tamal Kṛṣṇa Goswami. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Ali ? *Acyutānanda: Because all the Mohammedan's there, there name is Ali. And there the culture is agriculturalist. So he is ploughing next to them side*-by-side. So Tamal Kṛṣṇa Goswami said Jayapatāka Ali. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Alī means the gopī . Acyutānanda: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Then Tamal Kṛṣṇa has blessed him to become one of the gopīs. (laughter) Acyutānanda: Yeah. *Gurudasa: Alī*-Kṛṣṇa like Kāliya-Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yeah. Yaśodānandana: What is the diff . . . *Prabhupāda: Jaya rādhā*-mādhava . . . Acyutānanda: One of the Mohammedan farmers there . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: . . . was describing how he met Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. He used to walk into the Mohammedan village and he said when he was a little boy he patted him on the head. Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī patted him on the head. And he said that, "Wherever Bhaktisiddhānta used to sit down it seemed like the whole scenery was centred around him. He was so magnificent." He was telling. He tied up his cloth like a sannyāsī and he showed how he used to walk into the village. "He wouldn't look at anything directly but he would be looking at a distance," he was explaining. Pañcadraviḍa: I understand they liked him very much because he would even take water from the hands of Mohammedan's . . . Prabhupāda: But what is their attitude towards our men? Acyutānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Acyutānanda: In fact this Mohammedan's father owned the land which is on Śrīvāsa-āṅgan and he gave it to Bhaktisiddhānta free because they had lots of land at that time. So he gave it to Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda: So they are coming and taking prasādam ? Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Both men and women? Acyutānanda: Yes. They say Hare Kṛṣṇa to us. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. That is our mission chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam and go home. (laughter) Prabhupāda: . . . and if you like you can stay with us, as you like. Acyutānanda: Ah. Devotee: It is very sublime. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: It is very sublime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Before starting this movement I was always thinking that their Communist Party, there are so many political parties and we cannot form any party? Our method is so nice: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa dance and take prasādam . What is the difficulty in forming a party? Hare Kṛṣṇa party, so now it has come in formation to expand this formation. Please come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa dance and take prasādam . What is the difficulty? And gradually when he is settled up he will understand the philosophy whatever . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning he will not understand. What is that, a mouse? Devotees: A mouse. Yaśodānandana: It sat under your feet then she went away. (laughter) *Pañcadraviḍa: How does a mahā*-bhāgavata see this kind of a mouse? Prabhupāda: A living entity. Pañcadraviḍa: As a part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh yes and actually it is so. He has got a different dress only. Suppose there are many gentlemen we don't see the dress you see so many gentlemen that is all. Don't discriminate them because one has got different dress from another. Is it not? *Similarly, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) paṇḍitāḥ who is learned he sees everyone is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel but he is playing differently, just like an actor on the stage by different dress playing . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise they are one. Mahāṁsa: When the part and parcel is acting very much in ignorance and suppose like for example it is trying to take away your prasādam or it is trying to bite you or something like that then . . . Prabhupāda: You take care. Pañcadraviḍa: You can defend? Prabhupāda: That's all. But you must see that he is part and parcel. Just like your child suppose he is doing something mischief do you discard him? You take care of him. And you take care that the child may not commit any mischief. That is your duty but you cannot say, "Because this child is creating some disturbance cut his throat." You cannot say that. Mahāṁsa: Whew. So if there are mosquitoes who are troubling. Prabhupāda: Same way. Mahāṁsa: Same . . . Prabhupāda: If there is mosquitoes you have a mosquito carton but you cannot kill them. That is the principal. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyone, you take precautions you have got human brain, you take precaution that they may not create mischief. But they by nature they have got a body of like that—but because they have a different body you cannot kill them. Although it is said when one is an aggressor, you can kill. But these animals although they aggress they have no intelligence. The same example, a child is committing mischief. Because it has no intelligence and because it has no intelligence therefore you cannot kill. That should be our position, these animals even ferocious animals, they are all different parts and parcels of God Kṛṣṇa, you should see like that. But because they are under different . . . if you look they are all divine. So if you know them that they are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa but behave with them differently as far as possible not by killing. Killing means, he has been given a body to undergo the imprisonment for certain time if you kill then you prolong the time he has to again accept that body. You become criminal therefore because you are checking in his business. By nature's way he has been engaged in a certain type of business if you kill, he is not killed but he has to take another body. Therefore you are checking his progress, just like you cannot interfere with anyone prisoner that is criminal. *So many laws of nature, laws of God they are so fine that imperceptibly we are committing so many sinful activities but if you keep yourself surrendered to Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness Kṛṣṇa protects you but you become subjected to criminality, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣya (BG 18.66). *Suppose you are walking on the street you are killing so many animals, but a devotee he is protected by Kṛṣṇa who is non*-devotee is becoming subjected to that criminal action--killing. That is the difference. You are killing also, an ordinary man also killing but you are killing not knowingly, you are going on Kṛṣṇa's business for preaching. So you are killing but because you are going to Kṛṣṇa's business Kṛṣṇa is protecting you from the sinful reaction. That is the difference, but the sinful reaction is there, either the devotee or non-devotee. But the devotee willingly does not do any sinful activity. If there is some sinful activity in the course of his business then he is protected by Kṛṣṇa, that is the difference. Therefore the conclusion is to save oneself from all kinds of nonsense sinful activities one must become Kṛṣṇa consciousness otherwise he is subject to criminality. This is the conclusion. Unless you become Kṛṣṇa conscious he is subject to so many criminal activities he suffers. Even knowingly or unknowingly. So, kṛṣṇa nāma koro bhai ar sab miche, palai bar path nai Yama ache piche. (Oh brother, please chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, there is no escape as Yamarāja is waiting behind.) Yamarāja is noting down, "Ah he has done . . . (indistinct) . . . sinful activities you have to punished." You do not know, just like the police takes note of your car, next day you have to go to the court, "Oh I did not know." And it happened. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So we have no other alternative than to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, otherwise you will be foiled by police actions so many ways, so many times. Tell them frankly. Mahāṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That if you don’t become Kṛṣṇa conscious then your life is doomed. However you may be learned and very scholarly, palai bar path nai Yama ache piche. (There is no escape as Yamarāja is waiting behind.) He is noting down. Devotee: One might say a devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Neither you can commit sinful activities because Kṛṣṇa is . . . Devotee: Sin. Yes. Prabhupāda: No that is also another sin. *Devotee: Aparādha to the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you protection for your criminal activities which are being done in the course of executing Kṛṣṇa's order or unknowingly, that is not your fault. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving protection. *But if you think, "Let me do something criminal for my sense gratification Kṛṣṇa is there he will protect me," oh that is the greatest criminality. Namno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ , that is not excused. Mahāṁsa: Sometimes a devotee falls into māyā , does Kṛṣṇa protect him then? Prabhupāda: Yes. He'll protect. If he is actually . . . but if he is cheating Kṛṣṇa. Mahāṁsa: Knowingly? Prabhupāda: Knowingly, he is going to some sinful activities and he is cheating his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, "Oh I'm going to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then that is cheating, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa that is not possible, that is not possible. Mahāṁsa: He is only cheating himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu he wanted to cheat Kṛṣṇa he'll not die, but he cheated himself. He forgot to ask for one benediction that, "I shall not die on the lap of Hiraṇya." (laughter) Devotee: Nṛsiṁhadeva. Prabhupāda: Err . . . Nṛsiṁhadeva. That he forgot. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa made him forgetful, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca . (BG 15.15) While he was speaking playing tricks, Kṛṣṇa played a trick, that he forgot to ask for this benediction, apohanaṁ ca. So this is the explanation, people ask that how Kṛṣṇa makes one forgetful? He has got some business to make him forgetful. It is not without purpose, just like Hiraṇyakaśipu was forgetful to ask this benediction that, "I shall not die even on the lap of Nṛsiṁhadeva." That how you can do? There are so many tricks of Kṛṣṇa and how many you can remember? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Is not possible. Mahāṁsa: (indistinct) . . . on the hand or anywhere I heard. Prabhupāda: But these rascals they think that, "We are more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa." Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is illusion. He is never more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is his position. But he thinks that he is more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is illusion. He thinks that by this way I shall play a trick with Kṛṣṇa but that is impossible. You cannot play a trick with Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. You cannot, you must be very clean and open to Kṛṣṇa's sincere servant that is our business, then all protection will be there. Devotee: What if someone wants to do service to Kṛṣṇa but is it okay for me to do this service if I must exploit my Godbrother? There's no need . . . does it matter if I hurt my Godbrother, if Kṛṣṇa is protecting me, there will not be any reaction? Prabhupāda: Well how can you exploit your Godbrother? He is also engaged in some Kṛṣṇa's business, so how can you exploit? Your Godbrother is not an ordinary human being, he is also serving the Lord. How you can exploit another servitor for your advancement? That is sense gratification. There is no question of exploiting, as soon as there is question of exploiting that is sense gratification. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as exploitation, simply cooperation and appreciation. That is spiritual world. Instead of exploitation there should be exaltation. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: "Oh my Godbrother is so nice, he is doing so much service." This is not envy, in the material world if somebody does something more than oneself, he is envious. "Oh he is doing nice." There is no enviousness there is open acceptance so, "My Godbrother or this devotee is so nice, he is doing so nicely how he can do it?" That is appreciation and exaltation, that is Vaikuṇṭha world. You cannot become envious. Mahāṁsa: Is there also competition in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mahāṁsa: Competition? Prabhupāda: Yes competition just like here, "Oh . . . (indistinct) . . . this devotee has advanced so much I cannot do, let me follow his footsteps so then I can do." That's not competition. Asun. Kothay chilen etodin? (Please come. Where had you been all these days?) (break) Indian man: . . . asustha. (sick.) Prabhupāda: Buro hoye asche. Sharir sob . . . bolchena. (Getting old. The body is . . . not telling that.) Indian man: Oh. Prabhupāda: Khali Rupa gosvamir mato ekta choto kapar porlei rupanuga hoy na. (You don't become Rupanuga just by wearing a short cloth like Rupa Goswami.) Indian man: Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Tader ye samasta katha seguli sob mante hoy. (You need to follow their instructions.) Indian man: Mante hoy. (Yes, I need to follow.) Prabhupāda: Tobe rupanuga hoy. (Then you become Rupanuga.) Indian man: . . . (indistinct Bengali) (break) Prabhupāda: Er chobi ache. (I have his photo.) (break) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Besh bhalo. (Very good.) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Eije . . . ei Philippine er dol. (The group from the Philippines.) Indian man: Huh. Prabhupāda: Era juto sob . . . tin mile . . . chere esche . . . ora. (All the shoes . . . three miles . . . left here . . . it's they.) Indian man: Tomar meye . . . (indistinct) . . . Yamuna athaba Mahaprabhu. (Your daughter . . . (indistinct) . . . Yamuna or Mahaprabhu.) Prabhupāda: Huh. Indian man: Yamunar oi par tay sabai khub sundar sundar. (On the other side of Yamuna all their faces are beautiful) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Sakole sundar. (Everyone is beautiful.) (break) Prabhupāda: Sometime maybe. Gurudasa: Alternating current. Prabhupāda: Neh. Gurudasa: Alternating on and off. Indian man: Prabhupader photo (The photo of Prabhupāda) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: What? Indian Devotee: Photo, photo. Of Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Have you got any photograph of my Guru Mahārāja? Indian Devotee: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Galpo ache, yes no very good. Janen? (Do you know there is a story—yes, no, very good?) Indian Devotee: Han. Prabhupāda: Janen? Galpo? (You know the story?) Indian Devotee: Han? Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. Indian Devotee: (laughs) (laughter) Indian Devotee: Asun, basun, plet anun, glass anun. (Please come sit here. Bring some plates, bring glasses.) (break) Prabhupāda: I shall speak in both Hindi and Bengali. Ekjan khansana, se deshe yabe. (One butler, he was to go to his village home.) One servant of the European . . . he was to go to home, so. Tar ekta badli dite hobe, sei chakar ra sob bodli dito na? (He was to make one substitute ready who will work in his place during his leave.) So he has to give one man to represent him to work. So he says that, "How can I work for you?" Ami tomar jaygate ki kore kaj korbo? Amito engreji janina. (How can I work in your place? I don't know English.) “I will teach you, I will teach you English don’t bother.” Ami shikhiye debo. (I will teach you.) "Now what is that?" Tinte katha sekhabo. (You just learn three words.) "Just learn three words." "What is that?" Ki? (What?) "Yes, no, very good." (laughter) Devotee: Very simple. Indian Devotee: Yes, no, very good. Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. Sir yeta bolbe tumi "yes" bolbe. Tarpor ya bolbe "no". Tarpor ya bolbe "very good". (Whatever sir will ask, just reply "Yes". After that, whatever he replies you say "No". After that, whatever he says you reply "Very good") So he taught him three words that, “When you’re master will say something first you say: 'Yes' ". Khali "yes". (Only "Yes".) Tarpor yodi kichu bole, bolbe "no". Tarpore yodi . . . (If he says something more, then you say: "No", even after that.) . . . "And if he again speaks something then say: 'Very good' ". So he learned three words, yes no very good. So after, o yakhan cole geche. Ekdin saheber ghar theke kichu jinish khuje pacche na. (so when that person went on leave, one day his boss was searching for something in his room.) He was missing something so he asked the servant, "Where is my that thing, you have taken?" "Yes" (laughter) Eke jijnes korlo yei, ami ei jinishta dekhte pacchina tumi niyecho ki? Se bollo "yes". Mane to janena. (He asked him, "I couldn't find that thing, have you taken that?" He replied "Yes." He doesn't know the meaning.) Yes. He does not know, "Now if you have taken it then return it here". "No". (laughter) Yodi niye thako niye aso ekhane rakho. "No". (If you have taken that then bring it here. " No".) "Then I’m giving you to the Police." "Very good." (laughter) So when the Police came. Yakhan Police elo, takhon se . . . eta ki? Takhan bollo yao tumi er sange. To eto katha chilo na. Amito cakri korte eschilam. (When the Police came, he thought," What is this?" They said go with the Police now, and he was thinking this was not supposed to happen, so I came here to do my service.) I came here to serve now am going to the Police. So, yes no very good. (laughter) Formally when the Britishers came here they required assistance they could not bring so many Britishers. They had to manage office so any man, simply, "Yes, no, very good," he would get a service. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 7, 1972, Vrndavana Guru dāsa: (indistinct) . . . was that there discussion important? Prabhupāda: Very important. Guru dāsa: Section of Bhāgavata was it there. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . that is the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . of Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata never becomes old, nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā ( SB 1.2.18) . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru dāsa: (indistinct) . . . companion of the first three chapters is it not? The second question . . . Prabhupāda: So you're going Agra? Guru dāsa: No. Prabhupāda: When Dr. Kapoor phones . . . Guru dāsa: Hm. Prabhupāda: . . . tomorrow at 1 o'clock in the temple room. Guru dāsa: So he is coming here. Prabhupāda: Here, sitting here sit down. Come here . . . (break) what is the position of that palace? Any word from them? Acyutānanda: I think . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: Of course the king is the king . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . but he is very very generous. Prabhupāda: Flatter him . . . (indistinct) . . . flatter him . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Next time. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: So but it's a Trust, his all the properties now are now in the name of a Trust. The other members of the trust would like some. Someone has told us that to give them they mentioned something sometimes 15,000 and sometimes 25,000. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: But its not clear whether that would be the whole amount of money that will have to happen I think that if you give them some money to satisfy them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . can pay very much . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . decorate the deities . . . (indistinct) . . . the temples or . . . (indistinct) . . . I have got . . . (indistinct) . . . to make first*-class exhibition it's already there. I have to take care of that, we shall paint very nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . very attractive painting . . . (indistinct) . . . to decorate. So . . . (indistinct) . . . if they want something . . . (indistinct) . . . 50,000, 70,000 then . . . (indistinct) . . . you can pay it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: They also want two or three rooms in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh no that cannot do. We welcome but you cannot usurp. Guru dāsa: He said that when he is not there we can use this, those rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: But . . . (indistinct) . . . he won't. Prabhupāda: But one thing is that clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . deserve? That is not . . . (indistinct) . . . at all. Acyutānanda: You mean that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can accommodate there but with a little gravity. That is not clearly . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . room this land and . . . (indistinct) . . . for us. Prabhupāda: We can accommodate them but he gives us donation. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And to satisfy the . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is inevitable. Now we can now . . . whenever he comes we can provide four rooms, whenever he comes, this much . . . (indistinct) . . . but if we have allocated this four rooms . . . (indistinct) . . . always reserved for rooms. Acyutānanda: We can use them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: Whenever you come when you have left? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Whenever . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We shall pay. Whenever they come we shall have good facilities . . . (indistinct) . . . then if they decide then we can make additions and alterations that's our program. So we better not spend so much money there . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . residential quarters . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately decorate . . . (indistinct) . . . with a nice garden . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . and for our devotee's . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If they somehow or other . . . (indistinct) . . . that . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja has come . . . (indistinct) . . . acknowledged . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Would it be . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: If he wants to go to London we have there. Got now residential building, everywhere he wants to go . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign country. Los Angeles, New York, in Dallas. Oh Dallas we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . better than Los Angeles. You have not seen. . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) You have not seen house . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Guru dāsa: Wouldn't it be better with 26 2nd Ave. These lectures give me a feeling of those days. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: These lectures we're all sitting just yourself and devotees. Prabhupāda: In the beginning they were the first students. Acyutānanda, Brahmānanda . . . (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva, Kīrtanānanda, later on Bhavānanda. I think . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna was from the beginning? Bhavananda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pradyumna . . . (indistinct) . . . and our Hansadutta. Acyutānanda: When did Hayagrīva come? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. He got a son. Guru dāsa: Samba . . . (indistinct) . . . if the King travels to London he will want some spending money there. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . spending money? . . . (indistinct) . . . he can spend . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he likes. You cannot give him . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not possible. Guru dāsa: If that is what he wants. Prabhupāda: That . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise . . . (indistinct) . . . meat eating and drinking and gambling with a few lakhs then he can go to some hotel . . . (indistinct) . . . temple . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: He once . . . (indistinct) . . . mentioned . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Once he had mentioned that he wants to help him opening a foreign bank account. Prabhupāda: Immediately we shall help, immediately. Guru dāsa: But then he may want some contribution from our side for his palace? If he asks what should we offer? Prabhupāda: Minimum because we have to spend so much. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but nominal we can . . . but whatever he asks I can pay. Nominal. Guru dāsa: Because his nominal, he mentioned nominal 25 lakhs at one time. So what do . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That we need direction. Immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your idea? Acyutānanda: Idea of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Or . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Well 25,000 . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you want that you can give him $2,500. Immediately in any foreign country, either in England or New York or anywhere. I shall immediately send . . . (indistinct) . . . that will be very nice immediately we can open an account so that if we can show some bank balance then there will be no difficulty of going. Guru dāsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: A round trip ticket to America costs $1100. (break) Prabhupāda: I'll take care of that, first of all take care of this. He can be educated if he likes otherwise he can remain in London' or he can remain in New York' or in London village. Any big city he wants there will be no charge for his boarding and lodging. Everything will be free and if he wants to be educated that also we can arrange. Acyutānanda: The Mahārāja would like . . . (indistinct) . . . religious. Prabhupāda: Ah. Prabhupāda: He was trained up . . . (indistinct) . . . if he is prepared . . . (indistinct) . . . going there. He will be trained up. Eh? We can teach him Sanskrit also. In Dallas we are teaching Sanskrit, Sanskrit and English what is the age of the boy? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . 17? Prabhupāda: Then we can teach him Sanskrit and English. So let him donate without . . . (indistinct) . . . and we will take care of it. Let us make our programme nicely, we shall welcome him. Devotee: I would like to . . . when we go up to Māyāpura . . . (indistinct) . . . I would like to ask the Mahārāja to come and see you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That would be very nice. Devotee: I don't think that you should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That we don't know (break). So instead of going to Agra you can go to Haripur. Guru dāsa: I go on the 18th, departure. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: The car is expected. Acyutānanda: The car is expected and if it doesn't come then I will not be able to go to Broadwood until after Delhi because the . . . (indistinct) . . . is not . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the difficulty. Prabhupāda: Their name, fame, tradition will remain the same. Guru dāsa: We've been through that thing he said I am not interested. Acyutānanda: He said he wanted money. Guru dāsa: Yes. His son and his money. Prabhupāda: Let him take care of his son . . . (indistinct) . . . take Rs.10,000 if he wants. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . this mṛdaṅga is very nicely done. Devotee: Oh they are from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom? Devotee: Dinanatha . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the time? Devotee: 10:30. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . send more to Dallas . . . (indistinct) When I was living at that Keśī Ghat that . . . (indistinct) . . . settlement from that time I was looking. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . I was appreciating . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: You were doing that then what is the future? What are you looking at now? Prabhupāda: Gopal was prepared to give me that house for 10,000, but at that time I had no money. Guru dāsa: Inside it is nice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Inside it is nice. Gopal. But small. Prabhupāda: Oh. If he agrees then you give him 10,000 . . . but at that time no money. And we can decorate the garden very nicely. Guru dāsa: The garden has more area than it appears from where we saw it. Prabhupāda: Yes I can understand. The situation is very . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . (break) father and mother. He has spring cleaned everything (indistinct) jīva va maro va —those who are devotees for them death or life the same thing. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . now everyone is śūdra (laughs) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no discrimination . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. But they . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No just guess how many . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Then there will be a whole meeting Acyutānanda: (indistinct conversation with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Ah that's nice (indistinct) (break) All right . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) Guru dāsa: So? Indian man: We can't say anything openly even if they are convinced so we can say anything openly because he . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody can rest or say anything about it. Nobody can proof it. Guru dāsa: But my point is that Prabhupāda: The government has a strong hand in that movement the pulse . . . (indistinct) . . . very strong. Acyutānanda: Very strong. Very strong. Prabhupāda: But. That everyone. Indian man: Everyone . . . (indistinct) . . . have you come in touch? Prabhupāda: I have met one. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita Eh? Avidyaṁ jīvanaṁśūnyaṁ diśaḥśūnyā abāndhavāḥ . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) it is said there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . every alternate year . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: A front. Prabhupāda: It becomes a front . . . but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the solution of all problems. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: For want of bhoktāram (break) Fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: (Sounds like a tape playing). As soon as one becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . no material possessions . . . (indistinct) . . . unless one is free from all material attachments one cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . niṣkiñcana . . . (indistinct) . . . material . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says . . . (indistinct) . . . niṣkiñcana . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who accepts only Kṛṣṇa as the supreme proprietor and enjoyer . . . (indistinct) . . . the material world is such that everyone is thinking that I am the enjoyer. So there is competition . . . (indistinct) . . . working. Everyone is taking advantage of . . . (indistinct) . . . and everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to enjoy to his best capacity . . . (indistinct) . . . gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (Padyāvalī 63) servant of the servant of the servant. Guru dāsa: One or two . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? (break) Acyutānanda: And they stayed in . . . (indistinct) . . . house. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . (break) and immediately they began to talk to me . . . (indistinct) . . . and for three hours . . . (indistinct) . . . criticizing Māyāvād . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . and a picture that he painted, a picture of the divine rasa the divine līlā . . . (indistinct) . . . not that I . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): No. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . so I was going to go over there at night I didn't have it with me. So Prabhupāda was afterwards suggesting and a few days later he was invited . . . (indistinct) . . . he was guest for 20 days. And there I found . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Eh? No the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's Māyāvādī. Indian man: Māyāvādī . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) strange experience. Prabhupāda: You wrote your thesis on Caitanya? Indian man: Yes. I wrote and then I came in contact with these people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Indian man: (indistinct) . . . psychologist . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . psychologist. Prabhupāda: They are also converted more than psychologist. Indian man: More than that. Guru dāsa: We were deceived by psychiatrists. Indian man: (laughs) *Guru dāsa: There was one psychiatrist in London who was very well*-known and he was coming to the temple. So then Prabhupāda came and I said to him, "You come now and see him." And he said to his wife, "I'm going to see my Caitanya." Indian man: (laughs) Prabhupāda: There is another kind of philosopher I forgot, there is a group in London. The head of that group. Guru dāsa: Mensa. Prabhupāda: Mensa. Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. First of all one of their followers he talked with me and . . . (indistinct) . . . chief. I told them, "You are simply mental speculators." Indian man: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Mental speculators. (laughter) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the bathroom floor. (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) bathroom floor (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: Beginning from Socrates . . . (indistinct) . . . Plato and later on Darwin, Marx, Freud like that. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I gathered that . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Ah. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . they are taking me home now and I enjoyed my stay. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 7, 1972, Vrndavana Guru dāsa: (indistinct) . . . was that there discussion important? Prabhupāda: Very important. Guru dāsa: Section of Bhāgavata was it there. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . that is the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . of Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata never becomes old, nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā ( SB 1.2.18) . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru dāsa: (indistinct) . . . companion of the first three chapters is it not? The second question . . . Prabhupāda: So you're going Agra? Guru dāsa: No. Prabhupāda: When Dr. Kapoor phones . . . Guru dāsa: Hm. Prabhupāda: . . . tomorrow at 1 o'clock in the temple room. Guru dāsa: So he is coming here. Prabhupāda: Here, sitting here sit down. Come here . . . (break) what is the position of that palace? Any word from them? Acyutānanda: I think . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: Of course the king is the king . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . but he is very very generous. Prabhupāda: Flatter him . . . (indistinct) . . . flatter him . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Next time. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: So but it's a Trust, his all the properties now are now in the name of a Trust. The other members of the trust would like some. Someone has told us that to give them they mentioned something sometimes 15,000 and sometimes 25,000. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: But its not clear whether that would be the whole amount of money that will have to happen I think that if you give them some money to satisfy them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . can pay very much . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . decorate the deities . . . (indistinct) . . . the temples or . . . (indistinct) . . . I have got . . . (indistinct) . . . to make first*-class exhibition it's already there. I have to take care of that, we shall paint very nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . very attractive painting . . . (indistinct) . . . to decorate. So . . . (indistinct) . . . if they want something . . . (indistinct) . . . 50,000, 70,000 then . . . (indistinct) . . . you can pay it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: They also want two or three rooms in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh no that cannot do. We welcome but you cannot usurp. Guru dāsa: He said that when he is not there we can use this, those rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: But . . . (indistinct) . . . he won't. Prabhupāda: But one thing is that clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . deserve? That is not . . . (indistinct) . . . at all. Acyutānanda: You mean that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can accommodate there but with a little gravity. That is not clearly . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . room this land and . . . (indistinct) . . . for us. Prabhupāda: We can accommodate them but he gives us donation. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And to satisfy the . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is inevitable. Now we can now . . . whenever he comes we can provide four rooms, whenever he comes, this much . . . (indistinct) . . . but if we have allocated this four rooms . . . (indistinct) . . . always reserved for rooms. Acyutānanda: We can use them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: Whenever you come when you have left? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Whenever . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We shall pay. Whenever they come we shall have good facilities . . . (indistinct) . . . then if they decide then we can make additions and alterations that's our program. So we better not spend so much money there . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . residential quarters . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately decorate . . . (indistinct) . . . with a nice garden . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . and for our devotee's . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If they somehow or other . . . (indistinct) . . . that . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja has come . . . (indistinct) . . . acknowledged . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Would it be . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: If he wants to go to London we have there. Got now residential building, everywhere he wants to go . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign country. Los Angeles, New York, in Dallas. Oh Dallas we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . better than Los Angeles. You have not seen. . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) You have not seen house . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Guru dāsa: Wouldn't it be better with 26 2nd Ave. These lectures give me a feeling of those days. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: These lectures we're all sitting just yourself and devotees. Prabhupāda: In the beginning they were the first students. Acyutānanda, Brahmānanda . . . (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva, Kīrtanānanda, later on Bhavānanda. I think . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna was from the beginning? Bhavananda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pradyumna . . . (indistinct) . . . and our Hansadutta. Acyutānanda: When did Hayagrīva come? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. He got a son. Guru dāsa: Samba . . . (indistinct) . . . if the King travels to London he will want some spending money there. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . spending money? . . . (indistinct) . . . he can spend . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he likes. You cannot give him . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not possible. Guru dāsa: If that is what he wants. Prabhupāda: That . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise . . . (indistinct) . . . meat eating and drinking and gambling with a few lakhs then he can go to some hotel . . . (indistinct) . . . temple . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: He once . . . (indistinct) . . . mentioned . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Once he had mentioned that he wants to help him opening a foreign bank account. Prabhupāda: Immediately we shall help, immediately. Guru dāsa: But then he may want some contribution from our side for his palace? If he asks what should we offer? Prabhupāda: Minimum because we have to spend so much. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but nominal we can . . . but whatever he asks I can pay. Nominal. Guru dāsa: Because his nominal, he mentioned nominal 25 lakhs at one time. So what do . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That we need direction. Immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your idea? Acyutānanda: Idea of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Or . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Well 25,000 . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you want that you can give him $2,500. Immediately in any foreign country, either in England or New York or anywhere. I shall immediately send . . . (indistinct) . . . that will be very nice immediately we can open an account so that if we can show some bank balance then there will be no difficulty of going. Guru dāsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: A round trip ticket to America costs $1100. (break) Prabhupāda: I'll take care of that, first of all take care of this. He can be educated if he likes otherwise he can remain in London' or he can remain in New York' or in London village. Any big city he wants there will be no charge for his boarding and lodging. Everything will be free and if he wants to be educated that also we can arrange. Acyutānanda: The Mahārāja would like . . . (indistinct) . . . religious. Prabhupāda: Ah. Prabhupāda: He was trained up . . . (indistinct) . . . if he is prepared . . . (indistinct) . . . going there. He will be trained up. Eh? We can teach him Sanskrit also. In Dallas we are teaching Sanskrit, Sanskrit and English what is the age of the boy? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . 17? Prabhupāda: Then we can teach him Sanskrit and English. So let him donate without . . . (indistinct) . . . and we will take care of it. Let us make our programme nicely, we shall welcome him. Devotee: I would like to . . . when we go up to Māyāpura . . . (indistinct) . . . I would like to ask the Mahārāja to come and see you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That would be very nice. Devotee: I don't think that you should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That we don't know (break). So instead of going to Agra you can go to Haripur. Guru dāsa: I go on the 18th, departure. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: The car is expected. Acyutānanda: The car is expected and if it doesn't come then I will not be able to go to Broadwood until after Delhi because the . . . (indistinct) . . . is not . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the difficulty. Prabhupāda: Their name, fame, tradition will remain the same. Guru dāsa: We've been through that thing he said I am not interested. Acyutānanda: He said he wanted money. Guru dāsa: Yes. His son and his money. Prabhupāda: Let him take care of his son . . . (indistinct) . . . take Rs.10,000 if he wants. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . this mṛdaṅga is very nicely done. Devotee: Oh they are from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom? Devotee: Dinanatha . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the time? Devotee: 10:30. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . send more to Dallas . . . (indistinct) When I was living at that Keśī Ghat that . . . (indistinct) . . . settlement from that time I was looking. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . I was appreciating . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: You were doing that then what is the future? What are you looking at now? Prabhupāda: Gopal was prepared to give me that house for 10,000, but at that time I had no money. Guru dāsa: Inside it is nice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Inside it is nice. Gopal. But small. Prabhupāda: Oh. If he agrees then you give him 10,000 . . . but at that time no money. And we can decorate the garden very nicely. Guru dāsa: The garden has more area than it appears from where we saw it. Prabhupāda: Yes I can understand. The situation is very . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . (break) father and mother. He has spring cleaned everything (indistinct) jīva va maro va —those who are devotees for them death or life the same thing. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . now everyone is śūdra (laughs) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no discrimination . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. But they . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No just guess how many . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Then there will be a whole meeting Acyutānanda: (indistinct conversation with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Ah that's nice (indistinct) (break) All right . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) Guru dāsa: So? Indian man: We can't say anything openly even if they are convinced so we can say anything openly because he . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody can rest or say anything about it. Nobody can proof it. Guru dāsa: But my point is that Prabhupāda: The government has a strong hand in that movement the pulse . . . (indistinct) . . . very strong. Acyutānanda: Very strong. Very strong. Prabhupāda: But. That everyone. Indian man: Everyone . . . (indistinct) . . . have you come in touch? Prabhupāda: I have met one. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita Eh? Avidyaṁ jīvanaṁśūnyaṁ diśaḥśūnyā abāndhavāḥ . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) it is said there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . every alternate year . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: A front. Prabhupāda: It becomes a front . . . but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the solution of all problems. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: For want of bhoktāram (break) Fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: (Sounds like a tape playing). As soon as one becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . no material possessions . . . (indistinct) . . . unless one is free from all material attachments one cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . niṣkiñcana . . . (indistinct) . . . material . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says . . . (indistinct) . . . niṣkiñcana . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who accepts only Kṛṣṇa as the supreme proprietor and enjoyer . . . (indistinct) . . . the material world is such that everyone is thinking that I am the enjoyer. So there is competition . . . (indistinct) . . . working. Everyone is taking advantage of . . . (indistinct) . . . and everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to enjoy to his best capacity . . . (indistinct) . . . gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (Padyāvalī 63) servant of the servant of the servant. Guru dāsa: One or two . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? (break) Acyutānanda: And they stayed in . . . (indistinct) . . . house. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . (break) and immediately they began to talk to me . . . (indistinct) . . . and for three hours . . . (indistinct) . . . criticizing Māyāvād . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . and a picture that he painted, a picture of the divine rasa the divine līlā . . . (indistinct) . . . not that I . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): No. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . so I was going to go over there at night I didn't have it with me. So Prabhupāda was afterwards suggesting and a few days later he was invited . . . (indistinct) . . . he was guest for 20 days. And there I found . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Eh? No the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's Māyāvādī. Indian man: Māyāvādī . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) strange experience. Prabhupāda: You wrote your thesis on Caitanya? Indian man: Yes. I wrote and then I came in contact with these people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Indian man: (indistinct) . . . psychologist . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . psychologist. Prabhupāda: They are also converted more than psychologist. Indian man: More than that. Guru dāsa: We were deceived by psychiatrists. Indian man: (laughs) *Guru dāsa: There was one psychiatrist in London who was very well*-known and he was coming to the temple. So then Prabhupāda came and I said to him, "You come now and see him." And he said to his wife, "I'm going to see my Caitanya." Indian man: (laughs) Prabhupāda: There is another kind of philosopher I forgot, there is a group in London. The head of that group. Guru dāsa: Mensa. Prabhupāda: Mensa. Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. First of all one of their followers he talked with me and . . . (indistinct) . . . chief. I told them, "You are simply mental speculators." Indian man: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Mental speculators. (laughter) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the bathroom floor. (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) bathroom floor (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: Beginning from Socrates . . . (indistinct) . . . Plato and later on Darwin, Marx, Freud like that. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I gathered that . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Ah. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . they are taking me home now and I enjoyed my stay. (break) (end) Conversation Hindi -- December 10, 1972, Ahmedabad Prabhupāda: Conversation Hindi -- December 10, 1972, Ahmedabad Prabhupāda: Conversation -- December 27, 1972, Bombay Prabhupāda: They think that, "Now I have become this position, it will continue." But how long it will continue? They do not care for this. The Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja was asked by Dharmarāja, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world?" He explained that: Every moment millions of people are dying. Śeṣāḥ sthāvaram icchanti . But those who are not dying, he's thinking that, "I will not die. I will stay in my this position. Therefore I don't care for anything." This is most wonderful. Everyone is thinking that "I shall continue." He forgets that at any moment he'll be kicked out. That he does not know. So long he lives, he thinks, "It is my permanent position." That is mistake, the greatest mistake. Everyone is thinking. That is the most wonderful thing. Nobody thinks that, "I'll have to die, I'll have to take another body, I'll have to change the whole atmosphere, and what I am preparing for that?" Nobody thinks. This is the defect of the civilization. Indian lady: That must be due to māyā ? *Prabhupāda: Huh? This is māyā , illusion. He's thinking that, "This is my permanent position." Any moment you can be finished. That he does not take seriously. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : You have become confident that you are happy, but do you consider janma, mṛtyu, jarā, vyādhi ? What you have done for this? Can you stop death? Can you stop birth? Can you stop disease? Can you stop old age? Then, what you have made solution? If these miserable condition of life are there, then what is the value of your scientific advancement? *This is the essence of material life, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to stop this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . That is conclusion. How scientific movement it is. People should try to understand solution of the all problems. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti . No more birth. If there is no more birth, there is no more death, because death is for him who takes birth. One who does not take birth, that is deathless. There is no question. *People should know this most important scientific movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either by following our principles or, if he wants to understand, there are so many books. It is not a blind, sentimental movement. Vimukta*-māninaḥ . It is not like that. Vimukta-māninaḥ . Just like this morning, one gentleman came. He is thinking that "I am doing so great service." Indian guests: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. But when he was tested, he is nothing, zero. Just see. But he is thinking that, "I am doing." (break) . . . with fire, the fire will act, even you do not know that it is fire. This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti . He does not know that he is making little progress in spiritual life. *He does not know. But it is. Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma koṭibhiḥ sukṛti. Sukṛtino 'rjuna , this sukṛti will act some next, some after life. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā it is said: Sukṛtino . It is sukṛti . He does not know. But when the sukṛti is accumulated, then in one life he'll become devotee. So somehow or other if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are benefited. You are benefited. Because you have captured the real path. Real path. *Become sādhu . If anyone seriously takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately he becomes a sādhu. Sadhavaḥ sādhu*-bhūṣaṇām (SB 3.25.21). He's samyag vyavasito. He has actually come to the real path of life. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? This morning we were discussing from Bhagavad*-gītā , and we were saying that in our bodies there are so many living entities, billions and billions of living entities, each with a spirit soul. Not only Supersoul, but spirit soul. But we, I, the spirit soul, myself, I am controlling over all of these other living entities. Prabhupāda: You are not controlling. You are amongst them, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, maybe amongst them, but maybe the strongest of them. Prabhupāda: Not strongest, you are one of them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not strongest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I have was that at the time of death, when I leave this body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . they don't leave this body, do they? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they come out. As soon as the body is decomposed, they come out. Therefore the rascal theory that death means the living ingredient is missing, it is no more there, so that argument cannot be forwarded, because unless the living ingredients are there in the body, how these living entities are coming out? How it is possible? And this proves that the man, that the living entity which . . . who has left this body, he is individual. Although the facilities for generating life is there, but he is not coming; therefore he is individual. He has gone. Just like if I go from this room, you remain. That means I am individual, you are also individual. We are sitting together. I go away. So that does not mean you are also going out with me. Indian lady: And the soul takes rebirth? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. I go from this room, I go to another room. That is rebirth. When I go from this room, everyone will understand that, "Swāmījī has gone to the other room." Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Therefore, one who is sober, he is not astonished. One who is rascal, he can, "Oh, Swāmījī's gone." So what is gone? (laughter) Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Therefore, those who are dhīra , sober, he is not bewildered. "That's all right. He has left this body. He has got another body. That's all." Indian lady: Immediately after death one gets rebirth? Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately. Immediately he enters in the womb of another mother, according to his karma . Indian lady: For all human beings? *Prabhupāda: According to karma . It is not guaranteed that he'll be human being. He may go to a hog's mother's womb if his activities are like that. Therefore this is foolishness. He is thinking, "Now I am very secure. I have got this position, I have got this bank balance, I have got this house." He does not know by his activities he may be forced to enter in the womb of a hog's mother and come out as a hog. That he does not know. This science is not taught. But this is a fact. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir . It is not said that he is going to have again human body. Dehāntara: another body. Another body means there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So one has to accept any one of them according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva . . . just like we have got this apartment. Now you have arranged . . . superior authority has arranged that, "Prabhupāda, you come to this apartment." If it was not available, I might have gone to some slum. If it was not possible to come to this nice apartment, then I have to go somewhere. Somewhere I have to take shelter. Then I will accept, "All right. This slum is all right." But these rascals, they do not understand that I am in this apartment, nice apartment, and next I may have to accept apartment in the slum. That is . . . he is fixed up, "Oh, I am so happy." Where is your happiness? At any moment you will be kicked out, and if you do not make arrangement for better room, better apartment, then you are lost. Apartment you have to accept, but where is that apartment? That is . . . *Therefore it is said, yānti deva*-vratā devān . If you are deva-vratā , then you go to the higher planets, the moon planet, heavenly planet, your apartment is there. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ : if you are karma-kāṇḍīya , then you go to the Pitṛloka apartment. Bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni : if you are not so advanced, then you remain here somewhere. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām : and if you prepare yourself to go back to home, back to . . . you can go. So why should you waste my time going to another slum? Why not back to home, back to Godhead? This is intelligence. This is intelligence. Otherwise all fools. They do not know where they are going. While living in this apartment I am asking him that find out some other, because I have to get out. (laughs) That is intelligence. And when the one month is finished, he says: "Get out please," then? Then I will have to accept no better than a slum. This is human life. This is consciousness, that I will have to leave this apartment and I have to accept another apartment. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma. So what kind of apartment I am going to get? That is also stated: You can select. If you want to go to the apartment of demigods, you can go there. Just prepare yourself for the rent and money. This is human life. But they are just like animals, simply just like the cats and dogs. They do not know what is going to happen next life. They have no understanding. This rascal civilization is like that: just working hard like animals, like asses, and they are thinking, "My position is very secure."And one day nature says: "Please give up this position. Get out. Please get out." "No, no, I have got this . . ." "No, no sir. You will now get out. Please get out immediately." This is foolishness. Mūḍhā . They do not know what is the objective of life. And they are very much advanced in education, in science, in business. Andhā yathāndhair . . . they do not know where he's going. Just like andhā . The blind man, he does not know where he is going, and he is becoming leader. He does not know where he is going, and he is leading other. You see? *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not andhās , not blind. They are giving right direction, "You do this, you will go to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa here says, just see, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām : "You come to Me." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). It is the direction. Why don't you take it, you rascal? Why you are hovering in mental concoction? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are giving the right direction. We are the . . . suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ , we are the best friends of the human society. Best friend. They may not understand it, but we are the best friend. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ. *We are friends of all living entities—not only human society, but all society. We are feeling, "Why there should be so much animal killing?" No rascal is feeling. No rascal is feeling. We are feeling because we are suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ. We are friend of every living entity. We are feeling. We are crying, "Oh, this poor animal is taken to the slaughterhouse." We felt. These rascals, the leaders, they will not feel. They are so rascal, and they are leaders. That is the cause of all distresses of this material world: the rascals are taking leadership. They do not know how to lead. Kṛṣṇa is coming, personally showing, "This is the way." He is giving leading. But people will not accept it. So unfortunate. Personally He is giving leadership; nobody will accept that. What that . . . (indistinct) . . . speaking? That . . . who told me? You. What is the . . . did he speak? Girirāja: That "Kṛṣṇa is not Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: They say: "Kṛṣṇa is not Kṛṣṇa." That's it. Then what He is? He says: "I am Kṛṣṇa"; Vyāsadeva says: "He is Kṛṣṇa"; Nārada says: "He is Kṛṣṇa"; Rāmānujācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa"; Lord Caitanya says: "He is Kṛṣṇa." And he has become so great, greater than Vyāsadeva, Nārada and Rāmānujācārya. He says: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not . . ." Just see the foolishness. This is the foolishness. Simply wastes time. His uncle has written one book, Ranguparnata . Simply has wasted time, that's all. We can understand from the book, from the preacher of the book, it was printed three hundred years ago and stock is lying there. *And our book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , and others, we just printed 50,000, it is all sold, second days. From the preacher of the book we can understand. We are getting reports from outside India, every center says five times increased book-selling. And what they have made profit in New York? $240,000? Śyāmasundara: $245,000 in six months. Prabhupāda: Therefore I went to America. (laughter) Because I know there is intelligent man. Here they are all foolish. Being downtrodden for thousands of years under foreign subjugation, they have lost everything. Nonsense. Out . . . everything! I tried to start this movement from here. I was disappointed. *Therefore, I decided I shall go to America. They have lost everything—their culture, their civilization, their religion, their mode of living. Simply because it is a great culture, still we find some gentlemen because it is coming out of their heritage. Because a great family, a person belong to a great family, although he becomes poverty*-stricken, he cannot give up his family style. That is India's position. Because it belongs to a great civilization, still lingering. Otherwise they have given up. *Indian civilization they have given everything. The government has given everything. All these leaders, they have given everything. Otherwise, how cow slaughtering is going on in India? How it is going on? They have lost everything, all sense of civilization. How is it possible in India, cow slaughtering? This Bhārata*-varṣa, puṇya-bhūmi . They have become so rascals. And this so-called president, they are giving . . . taking high salaries and giving sanction for cow slaughter. That Dr. Radhakrishnan, yes I have seen, last year. And he is scholar. If he would have a little sense of religious life, he would not accept. "What I am going to take, accept this position? My salary will be drawn by cow slaughtering, and I will have to accept this position?" No. "Let the cows be slaughtered, let the people go to hell, I don't mind. Get me my salary, that's all." Leader. "My comfortable position." But he does not know that he will be kicked out, and he is being kicked out; nobody will know where he has gone. *So this is called ignorance. Paśyati jñāna*-cakṣusā. One has to see through the jñāna-cakṣusā. There in Western countries they were not trained up since centuries, so their position may be different. But in India, where this culture, Vedic culture, the people have fallen so much, how much regrettable it is. So it is a very important, great movement. Therefore, I invite all intelligent men to come and join and give relief to the suffering humanity. It is not ordinary movement. That is the best service: to raise them, their help in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Best service. One gentleman came, Mr. Bose? He came from Chicago? Devotee: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Yes, Philadelphia. He is there for the last fifty years? Devotee: Fifty years. Prabhupāda: So, Indian gentleman, Mr. Bose. So he was appreciating, "Swāmījī, you are giving . . ." He is an American, I mean to say, a permanent American resident. So he knows—he is educated—what is the position, that in spite of so much comforts of material life, they cannot sleep, they require tranquilizer tablet. So we were giving this new kind of formula, he was very much appreciating. Actually this is the position. In spite of . . . there is no scarcity. In America, there is no question of scarcity. Enough food, enough apartment, enough money, everything is enough. But they still require tranquilizer tablet. Just see. Thousands of thousands of tablets are sold daily. Is it not? What do you think? (aside to Śyāmasundara) Your father also takes? Yes. (laughter) Śyāmasundara's father, he is very rich man, good lawyer, he has got enough money, four motorcars, good wife, but tranquilizer he takes. He said: "My father requires this sleeping." Śyāmasundara: Every night he must take, or he will not sleep. Prabhupāda: Of course, he may be sorry his only son is lost. (laughter) He has left home, father, mother. Sisters also, they are . . . that is America. Śyāmasundara: Everyone loses their children in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Beautiful children. The sister, when first she came, I thought some doll is coming. So beautiful, nice. (laughter) In London she first met me from Germany. So beautiful, nice girl. She wanted to join us? Śyāmasundara: She's having problems. She's thinking of joining us. Prabhupāda: Another sister, she married thrice? Śyāmasundara: Fourth time just recently. Prabhupāda: Four times. *Śyāmasundara: She's twenty*-eight. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-eight years old; *in the meantime she has married four times. So this is going on. (someone at door) So Sarasvatī*-devī is engaged for opening door? That's nice. Yamuna: (indistinct) . . . says that . . . (indistinct) . . . is in the white zone. Nobody here has a car. Śyāmasundara: Car? (break) *Prabhupāda: By God's grace, you American boys, you are taking it. You take this movement very seriously. Preach it. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Your life will be successful, and people will be happy. Para*-upakāra . It was enjoined by Caitanya Mahaprabhu: So Indians, they are coming very slowly, but you preach on behalf of me. Of course, I am Indian also. (laughter) Indian lady: That is going on saṁskāras also. Saṁskāra . Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra you can make. I went to America because Guru Mahārāja ordered me, although I was old, seventy years old. But I thought it wise, "Let me try in this old age." But because I had no other motive, therefore it has become successful. I did not go there to earn money or bluff people or cheat them. I went to go . . . I went to give them something. That was my motive. Kārtikeya, you take this movement seriously. You are nice boy. Kārtikeya: Am I not taking? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, you have taken that much. I am encouraging more, more. Both husband and wife. Kārtikeya: My children are taking. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good child. The spirit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be pushed for the benefit of the whole world. People are realizing. Now that Dr. Singal came. So he secured some advertisement. He went to twenty places. Out of nineteen people gladly accepted, "Yes." One man is stubborn, he said: "No, we are not going to contribute anything religious." That . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He is thinking that he is secure, in his spot. (pause) All right. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haribol. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 27, 1972, Bombay Prabhupāda: They think that, "Now I have become this position, it will continue." But how long it will continue? They do not care for this. The Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja was asked by Dharmarāja, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world?" He explained that: Every moment millions of people are dying. Śeṣāḥ sthāvaram icchanti . But those who are not dying, he's thinking that, "I will not die. I will stay in my this position. Therefore I don't care for anything." This is most wonderful. Everyone is thinking that "I shall continue." He forgets that at any moment he'll be kicked out. That he does not know. So long he lives, he thinks, "It is my permanent position." That is mistake, the greatest mistake. Everyone is thinking. That is the most wonderful thing. Nobody thinks that, "I'll have to die, I'll have to take another body, I'll have to change the whole atmosphere, and what I am preparing for that?" Nobody thinks. This is the defect of the civilization. Indian lady: That must be due to māyā ? *Prabhupāda: Huh? This is māyā , illusion. He's thinking that, "This is my permanent position." Any moment you can be finished. That he does not take seriously. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : You have become confident that you are happy, but do you consider janma, mṛtyu, jarā, vyādhi ? What you have done for this? Can you stop death? Can you stop birth? Can you stop disease? Can you stop old age? Then, what you have made solution? If these miserable condition of life are there, then what is the value of your scientific advancement? *This is the essence of material life, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to stop this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . That is conclusion. How scientific movement it is. People should try to understand solution of the all problems. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti . No more birth. If there is no more birth, there is no more death, because death is for him who takes birth. One who does not take birth, that is deathless. There is no question. *People should know this most important scientific movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either by following our principles or, if he wants to understand, there are so many books. It is not a blind, sentimental movement. Vimukta*-māninaḥ . It is not like that. Vimukta-māninaḥ . Just like this morning, one gentleman came. He is thinking that "I am doing so great service." Indian guests: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. But when he was tested, he is nothing, zero. Just see. But he is thinking that, "I am doing." (break) . . . with fire, the fire will act, even you do not know that it is fire. This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti . He does not know that he is making little progress in spiritual life. *He does not know. But it is. Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma koṭibhiḥ sukṛti. Sukṛtino 'rjuna , this sukṛti will act some next, some after life. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā it is said: Sukṛtino . It is sukṛti . He does not know. But when the sukṛti is accumulated, then in one life he'll become devotee. So somehow or other if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are benefited. You are benefited. Because you have captured the real path. Real path. *Become sādhu . If anyone seriously takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately he becomes a sādhu. Sadhavaḥ sādhu*-bhūṣaṇām (SB 3.25.21). He's samyag vyavasito. He has actually come to the real path of life. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? This morning we were discussing from Bhagavad*-gītā , and we were saying that in our bodies there are so many living entities, billions and billions of living entities, each with a spirit soul. Not only Supersoul, but spirit soul. But we, I, the spirit soul, myself, I am controlling over all of these other living entities. Prabhupāda: You are not controlling. You are amongst them, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, maybe amongst them, but maybe the strongest of them. Prabhupāda: Not strongest, you are one of them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not strongest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I have was that at the time of death, when I leave this body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . they don't leave this body, do they? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they come out. As soon as the body is decomposed, they come out. Therefore the rascal theory that death means the living ingredient is missing, it is no more there, so that argument cannot be forwarded, because unless the living ingredients are there in the body, how these living entities are coming out? How it is possible? And this proves that the man, that the living entity which . . . who has left this body, he is individual. Although the facilities for generating life is there, but he is not coming; therefore he is individual. He has gone. Just like if I go from this room, you remain. That means I am individual, you are also individual. We are sitting together. I go away. So that does not mean you are also going out with me. Indian lady: And the soul takes rebirth? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. I go from this room, I go to another room. That is rebirth. When I go from this room, everyone will understand that, "Swāmījī has gone to the other room." Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Therefore, one who is sober, he is not astonished. One who is rascal, he can, "Oh, Swāmījī's gone." So what is gone? (laughter) Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Therefore, those who are dhīra , sober, he is not bewildered. "That's all right. He has left this body. He has got another body. That's all." Indian lady: Immediately after death one gets rebirth? Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately. Immediately he enters in the womb of another mother, according to his karma . Indian lady: For all human beings? *Prabhupāda: According to karma . It is not guaranteed that he'll be human being. He may go to a hog's mother's womb if his activities are like that. Therefore this is foolishness. He is thinking, "Now I am very secure. I have got this position, I have got this bank balance, I have got this house." He does not know by his activities he may be forced to enter in the womb of a hog's mother and come out as a hog. That he does not know. This science is not taught. But this is a fact. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir . It is not said that he is going to have again human body. Dehāntara: another body. Another body means there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So one has to accept any one of them according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva . . . just like we have got this apartment. Now you have arranged . . . superior authority has arranged that, "Prabhupāda, you come to this apartment." If it was not available, I might have gone to some slum. If it was not possible to come to this nice apartment, then I have to go somewhere. Somewhere I have to take shelter. Then I will accept, "All right. This slum is all right." But these rascals, they do not understand that I am in this apartment, nice apartment, and next I may have to accept apartment in the slum. That is . . . he is fixed up, "Oh, I am so happy." Where is your happiness? At any moment you will be kicked out, and if you do not make arrangement for better room, better apartment, then you are lost. Apartment you have to accept, but where is that apartment? That is . . . *Therefore it is said, yānti deva*-vratā devān . If you are deva-vratā , then you go to the higher planets, the moon planet, heavenly planet, your apartment is there. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ : if you are karma-kāṇḍīya , then you go to the Pitṛloka apartment. Bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni : if you are not so advanced, then you remain here somewhere. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām : and if you prepare yourself to go back to home, back to . . . you can go. So why should you waste my time going to another slum? Why not back to home, back to Godhead? This is intelligence. This is intelligence. Otherwise all fools. They do not know where they are going. While living in this apartment I am asking him that find out some other, because I have to get out. (laughs) That is intelligence. And when the one month is finished, he says: "Get out please," then? Then I will have to accept no better than a slum. This is human life. This is consciousness, that I will have to leave this apartment and I have to accept another apartment. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma. So what kind of apartment I am going to get? That is also stated: You can select. If you want to go to the apartment of demigods, you can go there. Just prepare yourself for the rent and money. This is human life. But they are just like animals, simply just like the cats and dogs. They do not know what is going to happen next life. They have no understanding. This rascal civilization is like that: just working hard like animals, like asses, and they are thinking, "My position is very secure."And one day nature says: "Please give up this position. Get out. Please get out." "No, no, I have got this . . ." "No, no sir. You will now get out. Please get out immediately." This is foolishness. Mūḍhā . They do not know what is the objective of life. And they are very much advanced in education, in science, in business. Andhā yathāndhair . . . they do not know where he's going. Just like andhā . The blind man, he does not know where he is going, and he is becoming leader. He does not know where he is going, and he is leading other. You see? *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not andhās , not blind. They are giving right direction, "You do this, you will go to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa here says, just see, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām : "You come to Me." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). It is the direction. Why don't you take it, you rascal? Why you are hovering in mental concoction? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are giving the right direction. We are the . . . suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ , we are the best friends of the human society. Best friend. They may not understand it, but we are the best friend. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ. *We are friends of all living entities—not only human society, but all society. We are feeling, "Why there should be so much animal killing?" No rascal is feeling. No rascal is feeling. We are feeling because we are suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ. We are friend of every living entity. We are feeling. We are crying, "Oh, this poor animal is taken to the slaughterhouse." We felt. These rascals, the leaders, they will not feel. They are so rascal, and they are leaders. That is the cause of all distresses of this material world: the rascals are taking leadership. They do not know how to lead. Kṛṣṇa is coming, personally showing, "This is the way." He is giving leading. But people will not accept it. So unfortunate. Personally He is giving leadership; nobody will accept that. What that . . . (indistinct) . . . speaking? That . . . who told me? You. What is the . . . did he speak? Girirāja: That "Kṛṣṇa is not Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: They say: "Kṛṣṇa is not Kṛṣṇa." That's it. Then what He is? He says: "I am Kṛṣṇa"; Vyāsadeva says: "He is Kṛṣṇa"; Nārada says: "He is Kṛṣṇa"; Rāmānujācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa"; Lord Caitanya says: "He is Kṛṣṇa." And he has become so great, greater than Vyāsadeva, Nārada and Rāmānujācārya. He says: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not . . ." Just see the foolishness. This is the foolishness. Simply wastes time. His uncle has written one book, Ranguparnata . Simply has wasted time, that's all. We can understand from the book, from the preacher of the book, it was printed three hundred years ago and stock is lying there. *And our book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , and others, we just printed 50,000, it is all sold, second days. From the preacher of the book we can understand. We are getting reports from outside India, every center says five times increased book-selling. And what they have made profit in New York? $240,000? Śyāmasundara: $245,000 in six months. Prabhupāda: Therefore I went to America. (laughter) Because I know there is intelligent man. Here they are all foolish. Being downtrodden for thousands of years under foreign subjugation, they have lost everything. Nonsense. Out . . . everything! I tried to start this movement from here. I was disappointed. *Therefore, I decided I shall go to America. They have lost everything—their culture, their civilization, their religion, their mode of living. Simply because it is a great culture, still we find some gentlemen because it is coming out of their heritage. Because a great family, a person belong to a great family, although he becomes poverty*-stricken, he cannot give up his family style. That is India's position. Because it belongs to a great civilization, still lingering. Otherwise they have given up. *Indian civilization they have given everything. The government has given everything. All these leaders, they have given everything. Otherwise, how cow slaughtering is going on in India? How it is going on? They have lost everything, all sense of civilization. How is it possible in India, cow slaughtering? This Bhārata*-varṣa, puṇya-bhūmi . They have become so rascals. And this so-called president, they are giving . . . taking high salaries and giving sanction for cow slaughter. That Dr. Radhakrishnan, yes I have seen, last year. And he is scholar. If he would have a little sense of religious life, he would not accept. "What I am going to take, accept this position? My salary will be drawn by cow slaughtering, and I will have to accept this position?" No. "Let the cows be slaughtered, let the people go to hell, I don't mind. Get me my salary, that's all." Leader. "My comfortable position." But he does not know that he will be kicked out, and he is being kicked out; nobody will know where he has gone. *So this is called ignorance. Paśyati jñāna*-cakṣusā. One has to see through the jñāna-cakṣusā. There in Western countries they were not trained up since centuries, so their position may be different. But in India, where this culture, Vedic culture, the people have fallen so much, how much regrettable it is. So it is a very important, great movement. Therefore, I invite all intelligent men to come and join and give relief to the suffering humanity. It is not ordinary movement. That is the best service: to raise them, their help in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Best service. One gentleman came, Mr. Bose? He came from Chicago? Devotee: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Yes, Philadelphia. He is there for the last fifty years? Devotee: Fifty years. Prabhupāda: So, Indian gentleman, Mr. Bose. So he was appreciating, "Swāmījī, you are giving . . ." He is an American, I mean to say, a permanent American resident. So he knows—he is educated—what is the position, that in spite of so much comforts of material life, they cannot sleep, they require tranquilizer tablet. So we were giving this new kind of formula, he was very much appreciating. Actually this is the position. In spite of . . . there is no scarcity. In America, there is no question of scarcity. Enough food, enough apartment, enough money, everything is enough. But they still require tranquilizer tablet. Just see. Thousands of thousands of tablets are sold daily. Is it not? What do you think? (aside to Śyāmasundara) Your father also takes? Yes. (laughter) Śyāmasundara's father, he is very rich man, good lawyer, he has got enough money, four motorcars, good wife, but tranquilizer he takes. He said: "My father requires this sleeping." Śyāmasundara: Every night he must take, or he will not sleep. Prabhupāda: Of course, he may be sorry his only son is lost. (laughter) He has left home, father, mother. Sisters also, they are . . . that is America. Śyāmasundara: Everyone loses their children in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Beautiful children. The sister, when first she came, I thought some doll is coming. So beautiful, nice. (laughter) In London she first met me from Germany. So beautiful, nice girl. She wanted to join us? Śyāmasundara: She's having problems. She's thinking of joining us. Prabhupāda: Another sister, she married thrice? Śyāmasundara: Fourth time just recently. Prabhupāda: Four times. *Śyāmasundara: She's twenty*-eight. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-eight years old; *in the meantime she has married four times. So this is going on. (someone at door) So Sarasvatī*-devī is engaged for opening door? That's nice. Yamuna: (indistinct) . . . says that . . . (indistinct) . . . is in the white zone. Nobody here has a car. Śyāmasundara: Car? (break) *Prabhupāda: By God's grace, you American boys, you are taking it. You take this movement very seriously. Preach it. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Your life will be successful, and people will be happy. Para*-upakāra . It was enjoined by Caitanya Mahaprabhu: So Indians, they are coming very slowly, but you preach on behalf of me. Of course, I am Indian also. (laughter) Indian lady: That is going on saṁskāras also. Saṁskāra . Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra you can make. I went to America because Guru Mahārāja ordered me, although I was old, seventy years old. But I thought it wise, "Let me try in this old age." But because I had no other motive, therefore it has become successful. I did not go there to earn money or bluff people or cheat them. I went to go . . . I went to give them something. That was my motive. Kārtikeya, you take this movement seriously. You are nice boy. Kārtikeya: Am I not taking? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, you have taken that much. I am encouraging more, more. Both husband and wife. Kārtikeya: My children are taking. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good child. The spirit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be pushed for the benefit of the whole world. People are realizing. Now that Dr. Singal came. So he secured some advertisement. He went to twenty places. Out of nineteen people gladly accepted, "Yes." One man is stubborn, he said: "No, we are not going to contribute anything religious." That . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He is thinking that he is secure, in his spot. (pause) All right. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haribol. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 30, 1972, Bombay *Prabhupāda: First of all you should know that I am not this body. Just like I am not this apartment, similarly, I am not this body. So my body is changing according to my karma . Just like according to my capacity to pay rent, my apartment is changing. Not that because I have come to the first*-class apartment, and it is guaranteed that I shall continue. *If I cannot pay rent, I cannot . . . then I have to leave it, and I have to accept, what is called, hut, because I cannot pay more. So similarly, according to our karma we are getting different types of body. That Darwin theory cannot explain, because it is missing the real factor, as it is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that idaṁ śarīraṁ kṣetram ( BG 13.3). And one who knows this kṣetra is kṣetrajña . *So, any question regarding this subject matter? (break) Not that simply go on reading the Bhagavad*-gītā . Do not try to understand by analysis. Then we shall be benefited, if we want to study Bhagavad-gītā . Not that I am giving my own interpretation and misleading all the people. No. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), a blind man is leading other blind man. One nonsense is leading another nonsense. It has no meaning. *This is science. Bhagavat*-tattva-jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One who knows Kṛṣṇa factually, he is guru . Not that anyone simply he has got some knowledge of A-B-C-D, he becomes a commentator on Bhagavad-gītā . No. That will not help us. Any question? Attika prabhu, no question? You have no question? Indian lady: You explain very nicely, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: You have any question? No? All right. Acchā . Thank you very much. Devotee: All glories to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Every Indian, especially he has mentioned: In no other part of the world this knowledge is known. It is the duty of the Indians to understand everything perfectly and distribute this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. They have no such books; neither they can explain. That . . . that fool is driving and may come out, that's all. That is not explanation. *So it is the prerogative of India, because in India there are so many sages, saintly person, they have left their knowledge, and one can make his life perfect and distribute this knowledge. This is the duty of India. Bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra. Manuṣya. Not the cats and dogs. Manuṣya , means human being. But all human being, now at the present moment they are cats and dogs. They have no knowledge. And their leaders, simply cats and dogs. That is the position. So any sensible man will take this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and try to assimilate and make his life perfect and distribute all over the world. That is wanted. That is the need of the present day. Indian man: Swāmījī, with so many saints in India and . . . (indistinct) . . . so good, how did we come to this stage? Prabhupāda: First of all, you do not know who is saint. That is your difficulty. You say: "So many saints," but there is no saint at all. Do you know what is saint? You say: "So many saints," so what is the saint? What is your understanding of saint? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, if I say: "So many rich men," so I must know who is rich man. If I say simply "so many" without knowing what is rich man, that is not perfect. Who is a saint, first of all? Indian lady: They claim that they are saints. Prabhupāda: They claim . . . everyone can claim, "I am saint." But you must know who is a saint. Everyone will claim that, "I am rich man." But there must be a standard of rich man, who is rich man. At least we understand that one who has got a nice bungalow, nice car, a few servants, a nice bank balance, then you can say: "Yes, it is rich man." But if I do not know who is rich man, then what is the use of speaking "so many"? First of all you must know who is a saint. How you know it? Saint, the exact meaning of saint is sādhu. Sādhu. Is it not? Indian lady: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find who is a sādhu. Sādhu , Kṛṣṇa explains that: Who is mahātmā ? Not that by stamping one becomes mahātmā . First of all know who is mahātmā , who is sādhu. Mahātmā , in another place: This is mahātmā . These are the description of mahātmā . If I say, people may be angry. If I say the politician is not a mahātmā , then people will be angry. But see the standard definition of mahātmā . Standard definition of mahātmā , Kṛṣṇa says: *You can stamp anyone as mahātmā , but sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ . That is mahātmā . What is his business? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti : "Kṛṣṇa is everything," and he surrenders, he is mahātmā . One who is constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. So you must know first of all who is a sādhu; *whether he's devoted to Kṛṣṇa, devoted to God. But these rascals, so*-called saints, say that, "I am God." He's a rascal. He's not a sādhu . He's not saintly person; he is a demon. So we are accepting demons as mahātmā and sādhu; therefore it has fallen down. Because we are accepting the rascals, demons as sādhu and mahātmā , therefore you have fallen down. This is the reason. *We do not know who is mahātmā and sādhu . Everyone is preaching, "Why you are finding out God? Why you are going to temple? The Gods are all loitering in the street, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. " And you are accepting, "Oh, so nice sādhu ." But you do not know. He is a demon, and you are accepting as sādhu . That is the cause of falldown. Mahātmā , sādhu , has been described, the supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa: Tuṣyanti ca ramanti ca (BG 10.9). Their only business is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Not that "Cut down the Supreme Lord, kill the Supreme Lord, and I become Supreme Lord," falsely, and cheat the innocent people. The cheaters we are accepting, that "Here is a god, here is mahātmā , here is sādhu ." Therefore it is falldown. Cheaters. Demons. Rascals. That is the cause of falldown. *Mahātmā is he that, bhajanty ananya*-manaso mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). He is under the control of daivī prakṛti , not this material nature' spiritual nature. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya-manaso : Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. He is mahātmā . We are creating all mahātmās , not demons, rascals. That is our business, Kṛṣṇa conciousness. As you are importing powdered milk from America, now you have to import all mahātmās from America. (laughter) It is a fact. Yes. Now there is no milk. So barrels and barrels of powdered milk is coming from America. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is milk? All finished. I think three, four years ago, when I first went I had some correspondence with my friend. So I wrote this very word that, "Now India is finished this milk and so many things, they have to import from foreign countries. Now you have to import brahmins and mahātmās from foreign countries." Because I tried to make this mahātmā in this country, but still they are not prepared. They are not prepared. But these boys, these American, European boys, they are prepared. Their order . . . carry my orders as I say. They are habituated to so many bad habits; I said: "Give up," they give up. So one must know, our Indian boys, they are not coming. They know that, "We know Kṛṣṇa, everything. Now let us learn technology." They are not even prepared to become mahātmā . Otherwise, everyone can become mahātmā . These are . . . how to become a mahātmā ? The knowledge is there, the system is there, but nobody is interested. Just like two young men came here, they saw, "Ah, what is this ārati ?" They went away. *There is no interest. They will go to cinema, to become cinema actor. That is the progress. And the so*-called mahātmās and sādhus say: "Yes, you can do whatever you like. Yes." They have no courage to say that, "You don't do this." Then he will lose all customer. Just see. He is a durātmā , he wants some money, "You do whatever nonsense you like, you simply give me my money, that's all." They are publicly preaching, "Yes, you can do anything. Oh, why not sense enjoyment? God has given you the senses, you enjoy." That Mahesh Yogi, he was speaking in this way, "Why the sense . . . the senses should be controlled? You have got . . . God has given you senses, you must enjoy." This is his philosophy. Vivekananda's philosophy: yata mata tata patha , "Whatever mata you have got, that's all right." Mahatma Gandhi was approached, "Mahatmaji, why don't you ask the Muslims to stop this cow killing?" "No, how can I do? This is their religion." Now see. If you are nonviolent, if by . . . in the name of religion somebody says: "It is my religion," how can you allow it? If you want to introduce nonviolence, religion or no religion, must stop it. Somebody will go on killing that, "My religion is to cut throat." "Yes, you can go on, yes, because it is your religion." What kind of mahātmā ? They are advertising . . . the government is advertising nonviolence, and ten thousand or forty thousand cows are being killed. What is this nonviolence? We are so misled, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā , and we are accepting these rascals and fools and rogues and demons as sādhus, mahātmās , leaders, and we are gone to hell. This is the fact. Indian man (2): So what is the solution to it? How to know . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): How for the average man to know that and not carried by it? The average man is just led to it. Prabhupāda: Yes, the average man is . . . now we are preaching this cult, but why they are not coming? You have kindly come, but maybe tomorrow you may not come. They're not eager to understand. They want to be misled. They want to be cheated. That is their progression. They don't want the truth. Because if he wants the truth, then his life will be spoiled. Indian lady: Restriction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He is living an untruth. The whole world is living on meat*-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling. And we are restricting, "No, you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have meat-eating, you cannot indulge in intoxication." So how many people will come? "Oh, Swāmījī is very conservative," they say: "Swāmījī is very conservative, primitive. We are now advanced. We must eat three plates of meat and two bottles of wine. That is advancement of civilization." What is this nonsense talking? Yes. Some of my students left, "Oh, Swāmījī is not allowing even the primary necessities of life." That is the primary necessities of life. Rāyarāma left for this purpose. So we cannot make any compromise. We don't make compromise. Therefore, although we are preaching all over the world, our principles are very strict. Anyone who comes seriously, "You cannot do this." Generally you can come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , that's all right. But if you want to become my disciple, then you have to give up all these bad habits. One who agrees, then I accept him as disciple. If I would say, "Yes, you can do. God has given you senses; you go now, enjoy your senses and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then I would have gotten millions and trillions. I don't allow that, such kind of nonsense. All right. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guests: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation -- December 30, 1972, Bombay *Prabhupāda: First of all you should know that I am not this body. Just like I am not this apartment, similarly, I am not this body. So my body is changing according to my karma . Just like according to my capacity to pay rent, my apartment is changing. Not that because I have come to the first*-class apartment, and it is guaranteed that I shall continue. *If I cannot pay rent, I cannot . . . then I have to leave it, and I have to accept, what is called, hut, because I cannot pay more. So similarly, according to our karma we are getting different types of body. That Darwin theory cannot explain, because it is missing the real factor, as it is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that idaṁ śarīraṁ kṣetram ( BG 13.3). And one who knows this kṣetra is kṣetrajña . *So, any question regarding this subject matter? (break) Not that simply go on reading the Bhagavad*-gītā . Do not try to understand by analysis. Then we shall be benefited, if we want to study Bhagavad-gītā . Not that I am giving my own interpretation and misleading all the people. No. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), a blind man is leading other blind man. One nonsense is leading another nonsense. It has no meaning. *This is science. Bhagavat*-tattva-jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One who knows Kṛṣṇa factually, he is guru . Not that anyone simply he has got some knowledge of A-B-C-D, he becomes a commentator on Bhagavad-gītā . No. That will not help us. Any question? Attika prabhu, no question? You have no question? Indian lady: You explain very nicely, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: You have any question? No? All right. Acchā . Thank you very much. Devotee: All glories to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Every Indian, especially he has mentioned: In no other part of the world this knowledge is known. It is the duty of the Indians to understand everything perfectly and distribute this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. They have no such books; neither they can explain. That . . . that fool is driving and may come out, that's all. That is not explanation. *So it is the prerogative of India, because in India there are so many sages, saintly person, they have left their knowledge, and one can make his life perfect and distribute this knowledge. This is the duty of India. Bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra. Manuṣya. Not the cats and dogs. Manuṣya , means human being. But all human being, now at the present moment they are cats and dogs. They have no knowledge. And their leaders, simply cats and dogs. That is the position. So any sensible man will take this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and try to assimilate and make his life perfect and distribute all over the world. That is wanted. That is the need of the present day. Indian man: Swāmījī, with so many saints in India and . . . (indistinct) . . . so good, how did we come to this stage? Prabhupāda: First of all, you do not know who is saint. That is your difficulty. You say: "So many saints," but there is no saint at all. Do you know what is saint? You say: "So many saints," so what is the saint? What is your understanding of saint? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, if I say: "So many rich men," so I must know who is rich man. If I say simply "so many" without knowing what is rich man, that is not perfect. Who is a saint, first of all? Indian lady: They claim that they are saints. Prabhupāda: They claim . . . everyone can claim, "I am saint." But you must know who is a saint. Everyone will claim that, "I am rich man." But there must be a standard of rich man, who is rich man. At least we understand that one who has got a nice bungalow, nice car, a few servants, a nice bank balance, then you can say: "Yes, it is rich man." But if I do not know who is rich man, then what is the use of speaking "so many"? First of all you must know who is a saint. How you know it? Saint, the exact meaning of saint is sādhu. Sādhu. Is it not? Indian lady: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find who is a sādhu. Sādhu , Kṛṣṇa explains that: Who is mahātmā ? Not that by stamping one becomes mahātmā . First of all know who is mahātmā , who is sādhu. Mahātmā , in another place: This is mahātmā . These are the description of mahātmā . If I say, people may be angry. If I say the politician is not a mahātmā , then people will be angry. But see the standard definition of mahātmā . Standard definition of mahātmā , Kṛṣṇa says: *You can stamp anyone as mahātmā , but sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ . That is mahātmā . What is his business? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti : "Kṛṣṇa is everything," and he surrenders, he is mahātmā . One who is constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. So you must know first of all who is a sādhu; *whether he's devoted to Kṛṣṇa, devoted to God. But these rascals, so*-called saints, say that, "I am God." He's a rascal. He's not a sādhu . He's not saintly person; he is a demon. So we are accepting demons as mahātmā and sādhu; therefore it has fallen down. Because we are accepting the rascals, demons as sādhu and mahātmā , therefore you have fallen down. This is the reason. *We do not know who is mahātmā and sādhu . Everyone is preaching, "Why you are finding out God? Why you are going to temple? The Gods are all loitering in the street, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. " And you are accepting, "Oh, so nice sādhu ." But you do not know. He is a demon, and you are accepting as sādhu . That is the cause of falldown. Mahātmā , sādhu , has been described, the supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa: Tuṣyanti ca ramanti ca (BG 10.9). Their only business is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Not that "Cut down the Supreme Lord, kill the Supreme Lord, and I become Supreme Lord," falsely, and cheat the innocent people. The cheaters we are accepting, that "Here is a god, here is mahātmā , here is sādhu ." Therefore it is falldown. Cheaters. Demons. Rascals. That is the cause of falldown. *Mahātmā is he that, bhajanty ananya*-manaso mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). He is under the control of daivī prakṛti , not this material nature' spiritual nature. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya-manaso : Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. He is mahātmā . We are creating all mahātmās , not demons, rascals. That is our business, Kṛṣṇa conciousness. As you are importing powdered milk from America, now you have to import all mahātmās from America. (laughter) It is a fact. Yes. Now there is no milk. So barrels and barrels of powdered milk is coming from America. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is milk? All finished. I think three, four years ago, when I first went I had some correspondence with my friend. So I wrote this very word that, "Now India is finished this milk and so many things, they have to import from foreign countries. Now you have to import brahmins and mahātmās from foreign countries." Because I tried to make this mahātmā in this country, but still they are not prepared. They are not prepared. But these boys, these American, European boys, they are prepared. Their order . . . carry my orders as I say. They are habituated to so many bad habits; I said: "Give up," they give up. So one must know, our Indian boys, they are not coming. They know that, "We know Kṛṣṇa, everything. Now let us learn technology." They are not even prepared to become mahātmā . Otherwise, everyone can become mahātmā . These are . . . how to become a mahātmā ? The knowledge is there, the system is there, but nobody is interested. Just like two young men came here, they saw, "Ah, what is this ārati ?" They went away. *There is no interest. They will go to cinema, to become cinema actor. That is the progress. And the so*-called mahātmās and sādhus say: "Yes, you can do whatever you like. Yes." They have no courage to say that, "You don't do this." Then he will lose all customer. Just see. He is a durātmā , he wants some money, "You do whatever nonsense you like, you simply give me my money, that's all." They are publicly preaching, "Yes, you can do anything. Oh, why not sense enjoyment? God has given you the senses, you enjoy." That Mahesh Yogi, he was speaking in this way, "Why the sense . . . the senses should be controlled? You have got . . . God has given you senses, you must enjoy." This is his philosophy. Vivekananda's philosophy: yata mata tata patha , "Whatever mata you have got, that's all right." Mahatma Gandhi was approached, "Mahatmaji, why don't you ask the Muslims to stop this cow killing?" "No, how can I do? This is their religion." Now see. If you are nonviolent, if by . . . in the name of religion somebody says: "It is my religion," how can you allow it? If you want to introduce nonviolence, religion or no religion, must stop it. Somebody will go on killing that, "My religion is to cut throat." "Yes, you can go on, yes, because it is your religion." What kind of mahātmā ? They are advertising . . . the government is advertising nonviolence, and ten thousand or forty thousand cows are being killed. What is this nonviolence? We are so misled, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā , and we are accepting these rascals and fools and rogues and demons as sādhus, mahātmās , leaders, and we are gone to hell. This is the fact. Indian man (2): So what is the solution to it? How to know . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): How for the average man to know that and not carried by it? The average man is just led to it. Prabhupāda: Yes, the average man is . . . now we are preaching this cult, but why they are not coming? You have kindly come, but maybe tomorrow you may not come. They're not eager to understand. They want to be misled. They want to be cheated. That is their progression. They don't want the truth. Because if he wants the truth, then his life will be spoiled. Indian lady: Restriction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He is living an untruth. The whole world is living on meat*-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling. And we are restricting, "No, you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have meat-eating, you cannot indulge in intoxication." So how many people will come? "Oh, Swāmījī is very conservative," they say: "Swāmījī is very conservative, primitive. We are now advanced. We must eat three plates of meat and two bottles of wine. That is advancement of civilization." What is this nonsense talking? Yes. Some of my students left, "Oh, Swāmījī is not allowing even the primary necessities of life." That is the primary necessities of life. Rāyarāma left for this purpose. So we cannot make any compromise. We don't make compromise. Therefore, although we are preaching all over the world, our principles are very strict. Anyone who comes seriously, "You cannot do this." Generally you can come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , that's all right. But if you want to become my disciple, then you have to give up all these bad habits. One who agrees, then I accept him as disciple. If I would say, "Yes, you can do. God has given you senses; you go now, enjoy your senses and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then I would have gotten millions and trillions. I don't allow that, such kind of nonsense. All right. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guests: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Room Conversation -- February 25, 1973, Jakarta *Devotee: ...mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat*-parāyanaḥ. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee: Again? Prabhupāda: Yes, go on, read the purport. Devotee: "Translation: Engage your mind always in thinking of Me. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you'll come to Me." Prabhupāda: So this is the process. Says, "Always think of Me." (speaks Hindi to guest for some minutes) This is the translation. Read the purport. Purport. Devotee: "Purport: In this verse it is clearly indicated that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only means of being delivered from the clutches of this contaminated material world. Sometimes unscrupulous commentators distort the meaning of what is clearly stated here: that all devotional service should be offered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Unfortunately, unscrupulous commentators divert the mind of the reader to that which is not at all feasible. Such commentators do not know that there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's mind and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not an ordinary human being. He's Absolute Truth. His body..." *Prabhupāda: Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has explained this verse... When Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he comments, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says man-manā, "Always think of Me." And he, out of his so-called nonsense scholarship, he says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." (Hindi) *Guest (1) Indian man: He's impersonalist. I read that Bhagavad*-gītā in school. Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense. He's a nonsense. Now he's suffering. I saw him last year in Madras. He has lost his brain. He's suffering now. You cannot ask him whether he's hungry or whether he wants some... Only his daughter is attending and here he cannot understand who is standing before him. He cannot speak. Like that. (Hindi) He has committed so much offenses under the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi for some minutes) ...very meritorious. I think you cannot understand Hindi. Devotee: He speaks English. Prabhupāda: Ah. So you can understand English then. So (Sanskrit). Duṣkṛtinaḥ means... kṛtiḥ means meritorious, very meritorious. But duṣkṛtiḥ. Whatever merit he has got... Nowadays at the present moment the civilization is so mad that everyone as human being... Any human being he has got some merit because he is not cat and dog. He's a man. As a man he has got brain, better than the cats and dogs. That's a fact. And actually they're doing so many things. Just like this picture. It is a very meritorious workmanship. So everyone can do some meritorious workmanship. But when that workmanship is diverted to, for the use of sinful activities... Just like one man is very meritorious, he's planning to form a party how to plunder. This requires merit. Without merit you cannot form a party. But the merit is being used for plundering, for harassing, for so many other sinful activities. So that is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there but the merit is being misused for sinful activities. Therefore duṣkṛtiḥ. Just like modern scientist. It is meritorious that they have discovered the atomic bomb. The merit is used for killing. If you just use your merit so that man may live; that they're dying. Everyone is dying. So you have discovered a bomb which will accelerate death. Death, everyone is going to die. So if you manufacture something which will actually help my death, is that very meritorious? If you discover something that will stop my death, that is meritorious. But everyone is dying and you have discovered some machine so that you can die quickly. What is the merit? But people are appreciating, "Oh, this is meritorious." This is called duṣkṛtiḥ. Duṣkṛtiḥ, mean one has got merit, it is being spoiled for doing something wrong. This is called duṣkṛtiḥ. So such people, duṣkṛtinaḥ, who, one who is using the merit for sinful activities, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15] and rascal. Rascal means denying the existence of God. He's a rascal. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he's a rascal. Rascal means poor fund of knowledge. Everything... Suppose this is a country, Indonesia, nicely being managed; the roads are there; *the policemen there, they're directing... Just yesterday we were trying to enter in a one way, policeman directs. So this symptom says that there is a good government. So any sane man, he'll see the cosmic manifestation*-that the sun is rising exactly in time; the moon is rising exactly in time; the seasons are changing; *the seas is in its position. Just like the Pacific Ocean at any moment it can overflow at any place. But it does not do so. You walk... I was walking in Los Angeles just about three feet away from the sea. So I was explaining to my students, "Now, I am just three feet away from the sea and the sea is so vast. At any second it can overflood us. But why you are confident the sea will not come here?" Because we know, by God's order, although the sea, the ocean, is so big, it cannot violate the order of God. That you are big, that's all right. But you cannot come beyond this line. So these things are being managed. And there is no God? What a nonsense. If things are... Just like when you pass through a house, sometimes if you don't see*-the house is not properly taken care of, or there is no light in front of the house, there are so many garbages, we immediately say, "Oh, there is no man in this house." And as soon as you see house is very nicely kept, there is light and the garden is kept, we understand there is a man. So this is common sense. If things are going on, everything is going on so nicely, how you can say there is no management, there is no brain? How you can say? What is this nonsense? How you can say there is no God? Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. These are the rascal, atheist proposition, asatyam. There is no proof in it. Zero. From zero it has come. Just see nonsense. Does anything come out of zero? You assemble zero, many millions of zero in one place, but still it is zero. Do you think that if you make zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, million times, has it any value? How do they conclude from zero such a management, cosmic manifestation has come? The flower is coming out nicely in its own way. The tree is coming. Human being is coming. Everything is in order. And there is no management. How much rascaldom. Just see. So these atheist class, they're rascals, mūḍhāḥ, third-class men without any knowledge. Na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ. I've already explained. Using the merit for sinful activities, they're called duṣkṛtiḥ. And mūḍhāḥ, these rascals, who cannot understand how the management is going on, mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Narādhamāḥ means... Nara means human being. Adhama means the lowest, because the lowest of the mankind. The highest of the mankind means who has the knowledge of the Supreme. He's called highest, brāhmaṇa. Brahma-jānāti, one who knows Brahman. He's called highest. And the lowest means that he has got this body, human form of body, but he is acting like animal. Just like cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is God. So any person who is not understanding, or trying to understand what is God, he's the lowest of the mankind. Because in the human form of life, it is the chance to understand what is God, but he's misusing it. He's using this body just like cats and dogs. They eat, sleep, have sex intercourse, and die. So these things are there. But if somebody argues that you are saying lowest of the mankind but we see so many Dr. Radhakrishnans, they also do not admit. Therefore the word is used, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They appear to be very highly learned scholars but their real knowledge has been taken by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Āsuri- bhāva. Why he can remain so? Because āsuri-bhāva, there is no God. That is their determination. There is no God. Therefore their merit is being misused, they have become the lowest of the mankind. They have become the Fool No. 1 and all that so-called education, academics, knowledge has been taken away by māyā. This is... So we test only whether he's a devotee of God. If he's not a devotee of God then we take either of these: he must be the rascal, or lowest of the mankind, or simply using the merit for sinful activities, or his knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Immediately, we have no difficulty to understand what class of man he is. The test is whether he has got any sense of understanding God. If not then he comes to this group. It is not very difficult to study man, what he is. We have got the formula in the Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) Devotee: Your explanation you've just given was so clear, Prabhupāda. We can easily see. It's so clear. *Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Yes, this is the explanation. There is no second explanation. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. This is the only explanation. What explanation can you... Who can give another explanation? There is no second explanation. Bhagavad*-bhakti-hīnasya jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ, aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. It's like if you decorate the dead body. It may be pleasing to some relatives of the dead body, otherwise what is the value of it? Others will think, "What a foolish man, he is, that decorating the dea..." Suppose if there is dead body and you're decorating (indistinct) flower. That may be your sentiment because the dead body belongs to your father or mother, like that. It is pleasing to you, but actually what is the value? So similarly, this human civilization is meant for understanding God. If that sense is lacking then it is simply decoration of the dead body. That's all. There is no value. Guest (1) Indian man: This gentleman doesn't understand English. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] *Guest (1): He's nice devotee of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. I remember many years ago, I met him in Surbaya. He used to preach on Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, but in Sindi language. Prabhupāda: Very good. Guest (2) Indian man: Of course we do not have good translation in Sindi language as your translation. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): He's nice devotee. (Hindi) nice dedication (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Guest (1): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: So we have explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā everything very nicely. (Hindi conversation for some minutes) ...the Eighteenth Chapter you'll find out, 65, 67 (indistinct). Find out. Devotee: Eighteenth Chapter, 65 through 67. Prabhupāda: Don't find? (indistinct). Yes, here is it. [break] *Devotee: Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad*-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati, bhaktiṁ mayi parāṁ kṛtvā mām evaiṣyaty asaṁśayaḥ [Bg 18.68]. "Translation: For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me." *Prabhupāda: "Anyone who explains this devotional service, as explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, is guaranteed to come back to Me." That means the preacher of this Bhagavad-gītā is guaranteed to go back to home, back to Godhead. What is the purport? Prabhupāda: Next verse. *Devotee: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya*-kṛttamaḥ, bhavitā na ca me tasmād anyaḥ priyataro bhuvi [Bg. 18.69]. "There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he. Nor will there ever be one more dear." Prabhupāda: Those who are preachers. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: These are the (indistinct). (Hindi) If you want to be very intimately related... You're already related, but intimately... then this is the process. (Hindi) This is the real (Hindi) This is the real (Hindi) Your brother*-in-law did not come? Eh? (Hindi conversation for some minutes) (end) Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta *Prabhupāda: Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha*-vratānām adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], teṣāṁ viṣṭhābhyāṁ vikraman visad to...(?). (hums softly) What is your philosophy of life? Devotee: Philosophy of life. Guest (1): What do you mean? Prabhupāda: Philosophy means why you are working, why you are living, what is the purpose. Guest (1): We are working for (indistinct), I have been working also. We just follow the same tradition. Prabhupāda: Still there must some why. Why your forefathers they work and they die? So do you think that is the only philosophy, to work and die? That is being done by the animals also. They work and die. Guest (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is another thing. First thing is, why you are working? What is the purpose of working? If the purpose of working is to work hard and then die, finished, then where is the difference between the animals and the men? They are also working. They are dying, too. Cats, dogs, hogs. Then after some time they die without knowing the purpose of life. Then where is the difference between cats, dogs, hogs and (indistinct) human beings. This question does not arise in the modern civilization. And one is thinking, "Yes, it is the same." But they're lying on the street, we're lying on a very nice apartment, bedstead. This is our profit. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it will take about a half hour to get the puffed rice. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then you give me, little fruit or... Devotee: Fruits? Prabhupāda: You have got that sliced? Bread sliced? No. Devotee: Slices of bread, I have them here. Prabhupāda: The last one. Devotee: The one we made last was a good one. Guest (1): What bread is that? Prabhupāda: (Hindi) In Bombay it is very... Somebody told me that he made at his home. They do it at home. Devotee: I think it's called rice. Prabhupāda: Rice, yes. In Bengali we call muḍi. It is very popular, staple food for ordinary, everyone. In Bengal village, it is very popular because they're rice eaters. From rice they make this puffed rice. So they taking it in the morning. Puffed rice, mixed with molasses and cheese. It makes very good combination. Similarly... Puffed rice must be there, and fruits, like mango, banana, little molasses, and cheese mixed together. It is very nice. (indistinct) This jackfruit... Puffed rice is the vehicle for eating all this. Or if these things are not available, then mix with ghee, little and salt, pepper and, what is called? Cucumber. Guest (1): Cucumber.... Prabhupāda: Khīrā, khīrā. You know khīrā? Guest (1): No, I have been only once to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest (1): Puffed rice, what is it called? Prabhupāda: In Bombay it is called kumula. Guest (1): Kumula. Prabhupāda: You are in a different world. Guest (1): Yes. Is it Bengali food though? In Bombay also? Prabhupāda: Yes. This puffed rice is used all provinces, all provinces, especially in Bombay and Bengal. I think everywhere, in Madras, U.P. In U.P. it is called bajiya, chaval chana bajiya. Guest (1): Channa we have. Prabhupāda: No. Channa. That is called chaval. Puffed rice means chaval. From grains we have got varieties of foods. Grains, fruits, vegetables, milk, sugar, you can make at least four hundred, five hundred varieties. Guest (1): From rice. Prabhupāda: No. From grains. Guest (1): From grains. Prabhupāda: In the Marwari community is, that is called... channa, channa. Channa and ghee, they can make varieties of preparations. Channa powder, chick pea flour, besan, besan. You know besan? Yes. From besan they make so many varieties. Besan, ghee and sugar. Guest (1): Puffed rice, how to cook it? Prabhupāda: Puffed rice itself is cooked food. Guest (1): It's cooked food. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rice, puffed, fused. Not fused, puffed. No, it is not boiled. Guest (1): We get it... Prabhupāda: It's a rough quality rice. It is not made from fine quality rice. Guest (1): Unpolished. Prabhupāda: Unpolished, rough quality rice. It is washed nicely, then mixed with little salt, then it is fried, then it is... They know the temper, fried, then they get it out. In Bengal they make. My mother used to do it. Then on sand bath, hot sand you put this prepared hot rice and puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, it becomes puffed. And then you take it out. And then mesh it, to get out of the sand. Then you cook it. It is cooked in sand bath, hot sand. All this bujiya, bujiya, grains. In India there is professional maker. You... They have got hot sand always ready. You take some grains, and then you put in the hot sand and put, put, put, put, put, put, then they mesh it, return it (indistinct). Devotee: Big bread. Guest (1): Cāpāṭi? Prabhupāda: No. Cāpāṭi is different. Punjabis... Guest (1): Papad. Prabhupāda: No, not papad. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Take papad. Not now, at lunchtime. (Hindi) So you can come at night? Devotee: (offers obeisances to Śrīla Prabhupāda) [break] Devotee: Very soon the man from department of religion will be coming. Guest (1): Minister of religion. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Shall we go there so that we can sit comfortably. Devotee: Well there're the same amount of chairs whether we're here or there. Prabhupāda: No, there are no more chairs. (indistinct) Devotee: Yes, I guess that's best. Prabhupāda: People are coming, so will you kindly take the trouble to, inside sitting? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, thank you very much. (to guest:) You don't take charge of that. *Devotee: We will take that. [break] Yes. This is Mr. Ivy Mastram and he is in charge of the Hindu and Buddhist Department of the Department of Religion. And this is his next*-in-command, director-general, Mr. G. Puja. He was educated in India also. Prabhupāda: Oh, really. Which city? Guest (2): Benares (indistinct) University. Prabhupāda: Oh, Benares University. Devotee: Actually, they have arranged by giving a letter, that we can stay in the country. They simply say, "We do not object," and then the immigration gives us a good visa. They especially like your books. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. You have read some of my books? Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: They are not my books. I am simply translating. They are written by Vyāsadeva, the original Vedic scholar. So there are now many secular states. Our Vedic idea of secular state is the government must be responsible of proper execution of religious system. It doesn't matter whether one is Hindu or one is Christian, one is Mohammedan or Buddhist. It doesn't matter. But it is a government duty to see that one who is professing as Hindu whether he's executing the Hindu principles of religion properly. That is government. Just like government gives license to so many businesses. One man is selling liquor, wine, government issues license. So the government inspector, excise inspector, goes and sees that the man is doing business according to the license. Government should not be callous that "You may go on with your so-called religion, we don't care for it." No. That is not government. Government's duty is to see, just like for example, Christians, their commandment, first commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." It is the government's duty to see that anyone who is professing Christian, "Why he's killing?" Immediately he should be punished that "You are professing as Christian and you are killing." This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā paramaṁ buddhiḥ. The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn't matter. The process should be quest of God. What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we... what we are? What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science. In the Vedānta-sūtra, it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, what is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? If simply eating, sleeping, and sex life, and defend is the business of human life, then these things are there in the animal life also. They also eat. They also sleep. They have also sex life, and they also defend according to their capacity. We defend with atomic bomb and they defend their own nails and claws. The different spirit is there. So that is not the aim of human life. The aim of human life-this opportunity's given by nature to have a human form of life-is to understand God. Nobody can deny-unless he is a crazy fellow*-the existence of God. That is not possible. There must be. I may know it or not know it, it doesn't matter. Therefore religion means to understand God and to awaken your dormant love for God. This is religion. Now there may be difference of process, according to country, time, people. Therefore, it is the duty of the government, it is the duty of the government... Hare Kṛṣṇa (someone enters). Formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising that their citizens were properly executing religious culture. That was government's duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So now government is callous about religion. I'm very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise. What is your function in this department? Guest 2: Excuse me, my English is very poor. I would like Mr. Kunti to translate, Indonesian. (Indonesian) Devotee: He would like to have him translate English to Indonesian. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): He is the director of the (indistinct) of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of (indistinct) expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions (indistinct) Christians, because we have also in charge for the Christianity, we have also in charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in charge for the Catholic and we have also in charge for other... Prabhupāda: Very good idea. This is very nice. Guest (2): So because we have so many in the prosecuting of their religions, there might be, the people between many religions (indistinct). So the government have to lead the people how (indistinct), to supply also, in the (indistinct) of their materials for readings, and facilities for their, prosecuting their religions. This is the actual (indistinct) department. Prabhupāda: So this is the idea which I was explaining that... Guest (2): (Indonesian) As a matter of fact, also that we are looking from the Hindu and Buddhist religions' point of view, how to get (indistinct) this department, especially because we are feeling of lacking of materials because no of our books actually here, written in ancient Indonesian language, which are translated from Sanskrit (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ancient English...? Guest (2): Ancient Indonesian language. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. *Guest (2): And now actually, most of the Sanskrit texts also, are not available anymore. Of course we have some few can be available from (indistinct) and that is why actually, to develop this new religions, as well as the Buddhist religion, which have a lack of material for reading. Now the government also tried to rewrite into Indonesian bhāṣā, and as one of the aspects, for example, that Bhagavad*-gītā has been translated into Indonesian. Prabhupāda: Mmmm. *Guest (2): Which we are expecting that this Bhagavad*-gītā should be read by English (indistinct) and also, matter of fact, most of English readers can understand and they have the ideas of the Mahābhārata, and Rāmāyaṇa, and the essence of the Bhagavad-gītā. Now the problems, at least the department has (indistinct) facing difficulties to supply materials that are actually needed by the people, is we are lacking of materials. So how, actually we have to solve this problem actually. We are actually, from the government point of view always looking and how we can try to get international relationships between various countries to solve the problems. As the same case also how to educate Indonesian peoples to study more about the Hinduism in order they can teach the Hinduism because in our country religious instruction is compulsory in our, any institution. So we felt, actually in our lack of material as well as lack of institution to develop this Hindu religions. And I, from our government actually, we are expected your visit here that it will be beneficial, both for our side, from the government point of view, and as well as for here and as well in your country. Prabhupāda: So I think your problems can be solved if you kindly cooperate with us. Guest (2): Yes. That's why we are looking for... because... Prabhupāda: We can give you correct idea of religious principles as well as our philosophy. Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Religious idea without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They should be combined. Religious idea supported by philosophy. Then it is correct. And philosophy without religious idea is simply mental speculation. They should be combined. That combination of religious idea and philosophy, you'll find in the Bhagavad*-gītā, provided you accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. If you interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, then you'll miss the point. Just like in our country, in India, Bhagavad-gītā has been interpreted in so different ways that people are now bewildered. They do not know what is actually Bhagavad-gītā. Take, for example... Just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. I think you know Sanskrit. Samavetā yuyutsavaḥ māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva kim akurvata sañjaya [Bg. 1.1]. Even a great leader, political leader, he has interpreted kurukṣetra as this body. So where is the dictionary where kurukṣetra means this body? But because he's a big political leader that gītā is going on. Kurukṣetra means this body. Pāṇḍava means the five senses. In this way [break] ...they cannot (indistinct) I may tell you frankly. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and how he can prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā? Then he has to drag some interpretation out of his own way. But because he's a big leader the people are misled. Similarly, all... at present moment in India the Bhagavad-gītā has becoming a plaything that anyone can interpret in his own way and do all nonsense. But I'll request you, because you are so much interested, and you have already approved Bhagavad-gītā, you have translated. Amongst the leading personalities, you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and spread it, it will have immediate effect. That is already experimented. Just like in western countries, before me, hundreds and thousands, swamis and yogis went there. But not a single person could understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, and what is Kṛṣṇa. Now hundreds and thousands of these boys in Europe, America, Canada, Africa, everywhere, Australia, everywhere, they are now become devotees... So they're intelligent persons, they're coming from rich family. Why they have taken seriously? Because they have understood Bhagavad-gītā nicely. So I request that God is neither Indonesian, neither Indian, neither African, God is God. And He claims that all living entities, in any form... The form is superficial. The form is taken as dress. Just like you are dressed in a different way, I am dressed in a different way. But we are not talking to the dress, we are talking to the man who is putting on the dress. Similarly, this bodily distinction is material. But spiritually we are all one. There is no question of becoming Indian or Indonesian or African or Asian or this or that. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You know. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śvapāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Because paṇḍita does not see the outward dress, paṇḍita sees the inside, who is putting on the dress. Therefore, without misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā, or being misled by so-called big, big leaders, if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it will be very nice, beneficial to everyone. That is my, not opinion, but is the fact. Things should be taken as it is. Call a spade a spade. Now, interpretation is required when things are not clear. When things are not very clear, not easily understood... There is example in Sanskrit grammar, gaṅgāyāṁ ghoṣa bali(?). The neighborhood of ghoṣa family is on the Ganges. Now, on the Ganges-Ganges is water-how there can be a village? Now, here interpretation required. When the matter is [break] ...on the water but on the bank of the Ganges. So when the meaning is not clear, then you can interpret. But when the meaning is clear... Just like Bhagavad-gītā: dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. Now Kurukṣetra is still there, in..., about 90 miles away from Delhi. Perhaps you have been there. The station is there, Kurukṣetra. Now how one can interpret that kurukṣetra means this body? This is going on. In spite of clear understanding, they interpret in their own way so that they have got their own philosophy, they want to support. This is going on. So if you kindly avoid this misleading interpretation, and if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you get the science of God, science of religion, which is applicable either to Indonesian or Indian or African or American, everyone. The science is appreciated everywhere. Two plus two equal to four, this mathematical science is applicable everywhere. It doesn't matter whether one is a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā is the science of religion, science of God. So if you take this book seriously, and try to spread this knowledge among your countrymen, I think you'll be very much benefited. And it can be... We are preaching that. We are the, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for one God, one scripture, one mantra, like that, for all people of the world. And we are happy that people are accepting it in that way, very nicely. And it is very easy. It is very easy. So Mr. Director he has read Bhagavad-gītā? Guest (2): Yes. He has read it. Prabhupāda: Very good. *Guest (2): And I think many Indonesian people, actually have read this Bhagavad*-gītā because we have translated that Bhagavad-gītā in 1966. *Prabhupāda: I see. Very nice. So have you read our, this Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You like it? Guest (2): (indistinct) because when I was in India (indistinct). Prabhupāda;: So religion must be there. Without religion the human society is animal society. There must be religion. And religion means to know God. That is religion. What is your explanation of religion? Guest (2): Actually (indistinct) religion has to be defined as (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that (indistinct) Guest (2): : (indistinct) to understand religion is (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: : Yes. They must be the same. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the course, or the laws given by God. Just like law means the law given by the state. I cannot manufacture law. The citizen cannot manufacture law. The law is manufactured by the legislative assembly of the government. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. Now we have to understand who is God, and what is His order, and how it is applicable to everyone. That is the system of religion. We cannot whimsically give some rituals as religion. The principle of religion is to obey the orders of God. Therefore the first principle is to know who is God. Unless I know what is God, then how I can know what is His order? So in the Bhagavad-gītā, the religion is given that-(Aside:) you are feeling sleepy, you can go*-the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is religion. We have manufactured so many types of religion, and here God says that "You give up your manufactured religion. You just surrender unto Me." This is religion. Religion means to surrender. A good citizen means to surrender to the government law. Similarly, a religious person means who has surrendered to God. Nowadays it has become a regrettable fashion that everyone is God, when we surrender to one. And this false prestige that "I am God. I haven't got to surrender to anyone. I am God. What surrender?" This atheism is going on and spoiling the whole human society. God has become so cheap. Any nonsense can claim, "I am God." That is the defect of the modern society. There is a great necessity to understand God. If everyone is God then where is the necessity of religion? If everyone is president then where is the necessity of lawmaking? So this is going on. This is very unfortunate situation. What is your idea? Guest (2): (indistinct) that in our Hindu text, for example, that when it's expressed ahaṁ brahmāsmi, so... Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi is the Vedic version, that is all right. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi means, "I am spirit. I am not this body." So 'ham means, "I am the same quality as God." But they are misinterpretation: So 'ham means, "I am God." This is nonsense. This is going on. Guest (2): That's misleading. *Prabhupāda: Misleading. People have become nonsense. (conversation between the two Indonesian guests) You have published Bhagavad*-gītā with commentary or simple translation? Guest (2): With commentaries. Prabhupāda: So whose commentary you have followed? Guest (2): We try to take from various books and we try, at first we have to understand clearly their positions, then we put them in a simple way that everybody can understand it clearly. Only the part that's very difficult to (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Now here, Bhagavad*-gītā, in the Fourth Chapter it is said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. You can open to the Fourth Chapter. Guest (2): (Indonesian) but according to our opinions that religion is something that true living. Prabhupāda: Something? Guest (2): Something that we should live truly. Prabhupāda: True living. Yes. True, just like good citizens... Guest (2): That's right. Prabhupāda: Good citizenship means living under the direction of the government. That is good citizenship. Similarly, human life means to live nicely under the direction of God. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. But the human life, (pause) That first verse: imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt [Bg. 4.1]. So what is your explanation of this verse? Guest (2): You want to explain this into er... Do you want to explain this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt [Bg. 4.1]. Guest (2): Yes. This actually is explaining the origins of the law, ancient law, that's obeyed by the man. It's the law given from the Vedic literature... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Yes. Kṛṣṇa (indistinct) and coming to Ikṣvāku and... Prabhupāda: Yes, that (indistinct) means, that means this knowledge should be received from the authority. Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like... Guest (2): So actually they have acquired it from one source. *Prabhupāda: Yes. One link. So that is being deviated. What Kṛṣṇa said to Vivasvān, to the sun*-god now everyone is speaking in his own way, not in that way. Guest (2): That's right. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is deviated. The Bhagavad*-gītā, the Chapter, Fourth Chapter explains that you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation. You must follow the instruction of the original speaker of Bhagavad-gītā. The original speaker is Kṛṣṇa. So what Kṛṣṇa says, they have to follow it. Then it is Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise if you interpret it in a different way then it is not Bhagavad-gītā. Now, what Kṛṣṇa says we have to understand it philosophically, ethically, scientifically, any way, any angle of vision. That is, that you can do. But you cannot change the version of Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot change. Just like Dr. Rādhākrishnan, in the Ninth Chapter when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Dr. Rādhākrishnan says "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." But Kṛṣṇa person says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "You just always think of Me." And he's deviating his readers, "Not to Kṛṣṇa." How much harm he's doing. This is going on. Why? It is said, Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "Just think of Me. Just become my devotee." What right he has got to say that here it is not to Kṛṣṇa? This is going on. So if we interpret in that nonsense way then we shall not be able to understand Bhagavad-gītā. We shall miss this point. Science does not mean that you have to change according to your whims. Two plus two equal to four. You cannot make it five or three. That is not possible. Then it is not science. No longer the scientific value of this two plus two remains. We follow that principle, and that is the only principle. So if you're actually serious about Bhagavad-gītā, I do not know what is your commentary. I request you, "Try to follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Don't interpret in your own way. Then it will be (indistinct)." Everyone has got (indistinct) all over the world. Therefore we are selling this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is very nicely. Our publisher's MacMillan Co. and their trades managers report is that our Bhagavad-gītā is increasing daily, sales, other decreasing. That is the report, and in October they published 50,000 copies, it is already finished. Now they have to plan it for the second edition. People are very much now, eager to read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So, imitating us, somebody's, another (chuckles) man, he said "Bhagavad-gītā As It Was." (laughs with everyone) Like that. So that will not harm our cause. Guest (2): (Indonesian) One thing Mr. (indistinct) would like to answer from you, that, according to different view, objective reply, the object of this (indistinct) life, the objective of our religion is to be prosperous in this world and hereafter. Prabhupāda: No. This is (indistinct) Prosperous. That is also stated, how you can become prosperous. That... Guest (2): The problems work like this... Prabhupāda: No. That is also stated... Guest (2): Whether this question also... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is there... Guest (2): This what it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find this verse. (Aside:) Find out. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. This is the śānti, prosperity. They are... Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer. I am the sole proprietor of everything." Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. Sarva-loka, not only of this planet, but other planets also. Loka. Loka means planet, sarva-lokam. So bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "I am the best, I mean to say, well-wisher friend of everyone." Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. If one understands these three things only, that God is the Supreme Enjoyer. We are not enjoyer. But God is Enjoyer. That God is the Proprietor of everything. Not we are proprietor. We are subordinate. In the Vedas also, it is stated, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The description of God is like that He's eternal amongst the eternals. We are also eternal, the living entities. And God is also eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ... cetana, He's the vital living force among all living forces. We are all living forces and He's the chief living force. Then what is the distinction between this singular number, nitya, and the plural number, nityas? The distinction is that that singular number, nitya, is maintaining this plural number, nityas. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is the distinction. Otherwise God is also a living entity like us, like one of us. But he's the chief. Just like father and children. Father is the chief man in the family and he's providing all necessities to life for the children, for the wife (indistinct). Although the father is also living entity and the children are also living entities, but the father is providing the children, and the children are being provided by the father. So this is the understanding. Unless we understand this, there cannot be any peace. That is the Vedic version. Anyone who understands this, he gets peace. Otherwise there's no possibility of peace. If I think that I am the proprietor, if I think that I am the enjoyer, or, in other words, I am God, then you'll never get peace. That is not possible. That is a false. If one of the children thinks that I am the independent, then naturally father will say, "All right, if you're independent, do your own business." This is an example. So if you want peace then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, you have to learn these three things. It is not very difficult. To accept God as the Supreme Enjoyer, and God as the sole proprietor of everything, and He's the best friend of everyone. Then you have peace. Anyone can appreciate this. Anyone can adopt this principle and he'll be in peace. And so long one will falsely think that "I am God. I am enjoyer, I am this, I am that." Then he'll suffer. False notion will never make him happy. He must come to the true, factual idea. Now you can examine that Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer." Now let us understand this one fact, how Kṛṣṇa's the enjoyer. Now suppose here is some banana fruits. Who has created this banana fruit? You are not manufacturer, I am not manufacturer. Somebody has created. We accept God has created and that's a fact. Then who should be the enjoyer? I shall be enjoyer or God shall be enjoyer? Anything you create, you become the enjoyer. Anything I create, I become the enjoyer. So if God has created this banana fruit, then who should be enjoyer? God or I? Guest (2): God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So our business is, we should offer this banana to God. "So it is Your creation, it is Your thing. First of all You taste it, then we take it." Then you become in peace. And if you falsely think that "I have created this banana tree. I have worked so hard. Now the fruit is there. Now I am the enjoyer." Then you are mistaken. Then next statement is, bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheś... [Bg. 5.29], "I am the proprietor of everything in the world." Now, beginning of this world, Bhūmi, land, this land, they're claiming this land Indonesian, this land American, this land Indian. But has the Indonesians or the Africans or the Indians created this land? Who has created this land? Guest (2): God. *Prabhupāda: Then He must be proprietor. But we are falsely claiming that, "I am the proprietor." So how you can be in peace? Suppose you steal something, somebody's property, and falsely claim, "I am proprietor," you'll never be peace because it is not your thing. You have stolen it. So in this way, if you... philosophy can be studied that God is the Supreme Proprietor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ [Īśo mantra 1]. You can simply use what is given to you. You cannot claim other's property. Just like in animal life, animal life, they do not claim that "This is my country." The birds, they do not claim, but they live very peacefully. There are crows, there are spa... What is called? So many birds, they live anywhere, everywhere, but they do not claim, "Oh, this is my country. This is my place." They do not claim. Therefore they are free to move everywhere. So we have created a situation, Godless situation, therefore we are not in peace. So therefore, if you want peace, you must accept God, first of all. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati [Bg. 5.29], this is the way of śānti. You cannot create your śānti in your own way. That is not possible. Just like the citizens, if they create their own way of śānti, there cannot be peace. If they abide by the orders of the government, by the laws of the government, there will be peace. This is crude example. Similarly, if you do not accept God in the center as the Supreme Proprietor and the Supreme Enjoyer and the Supreme Friend, then there is no peace. This is the problem, I have given in the... What is that? You read it? *Devotee: Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati [Bg. 5.29]. "Translation: The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, obtain peace from the pangs of material miseries." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Devotee: "The conditioned souls in the clutches of the illusory energy are all anxious to attain peace in the material world. They do not know the formula for peace which is explained in this part of the Bhagavad*-gītā. The greatest peace formula is simply this. Lord Kṛṣṇa is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon. No one is greater than He. He is greater than the greatest of the demigods, Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā. In the Vedas the Supreme Lord is described as param īśvarānāṁ paramaṁ maheśvaram. Under the spell of illusion, living entities are trying to be lords of all they survey. But actually they are dominated by the material energy of the Lord. The Lord is the master of material nature and the conditioned souls are under the stringent rules of material nature." Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Lord is the master of material nature, and we are conditioned by the material nature and still we are claiming, "I am God." Then? *Devotee: "Unless one understands these bare facts it is not possible to achieve peace in the world, either individually or collectively. This is the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Predominator and all living entities, including the great demigods, are His subordinates. One can attain perfect peace only in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the Fifth Chapter is the practical explanation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, generally known as karma*-yoga. The question of mental speculation as to how karma-yoga can bring liberation is answered herewith. To work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to work with the complete knowledge that the Lord is the predominator. Such work is not different from transcendental knowledge. Direct Kṛṣṇa consciousness is bhakti-yoga. and jñāna-yoga is the path leading to bhakti-yoga. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to work in full knowledge of one's relationship with the Supreme Absolute and the perfection of this consciousness is full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa or Supreme Personality of Godhead. A pure soul is the eternal servant of God as His fragmental part and parcel. He comes into contact with māyā, illusion, due to the desire to lord it over māyā. And that is the cause of his many sufferings. As long as he is in contact with matter he has to execute work in terms of material necessities. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, brings one into spiritual life even while he is in the jurisdiction of matter, for it is an arousing of spiritual existence by practice in the material world. The more one is advanced, the more he is free from the clutches of matter. The Lord is not partial toward anyone. Everything depends on ones practical performance of duties in an effort to control the senses and conquer the influence of desire and anger. And attaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness by controlling the above mentioned passions, one remains factually in the transcendental stage of brahma-nirvāṇa. The eight-fold yoga mysticism is automatically practiced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness because the ultimate purpose is served. There's a gradual process of elevation in the practice of yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, dhāraṇā, dhyāna, and samādhi. But these only preface perfection by devotional service which alone can award peace to the human being. It is the highest perfection of life." *Prabhupāda: Therefore in another place, it is stated, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19], "After many, many births, when actually becomes wise, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate, he surrenders unto Me." That is the perfection of knowledge. So this is... The Bhagavad*-gītā is the only source of scientific knowledge of God and our relationship with God. I am very glad that you are already very serious about understanding Bhagavad-gītā. But I request you only that try to... and understand Bhagavad-gītā without any, our man-made interpretation. That will be my request. Guest (2): What is one thing that I would like to... Prabhupāda: And we are always ready to help you in this. Guest (2): Yes, thank you for this. What I wanted, that if you will be able to help us... Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes. Guest (2): ...in establishing, for example, that *Gītā* meeting for some... Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Guest (2): (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practically preaching the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. And it is coming fruitful. It is coming very fruitful. Prabhupāda: Please translate. *Guest (2): He said, as a matter of fact, this Hindu religion in Indonesia, actually, most of them practicing Bhagavad*-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā has been a part of their life, but as a matter of fact, because in practicing this Bhagavad-gītā, not all (indistinct) has been practiced but only part by part which is very necessary for the adjustment with the condition in Indonesia. Some of them, of course, they can memorizing the verses for their benefit in their practices. (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So we are always prepared to help you, anytime you require our help. (indistinct) ...try, we shall very much try to explain Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Guest (2): Thank you. (end) Room Conversation -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta *Prabhupāda: Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya. Devotee: Yaḥ tasya... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Y*-a-... Yaḥ śāstra. Devotee: I've got y-... (pause) I don't think... Prabhupāda: There is no yaḥ? *Devotee: There's yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānām. *Prabhupāda: That is yā, yā. That is y-ā, yā niśā, y-ā. Y*-a-ḥ, *Devotee: Y*-a-ḥ, yaḥ. Prabhupāda: Then śāstra. Devotee: Yaḥ śāstra vidhim... Prabhupāda: Ha! Devotee: Sixteen, verse 23. Prabhupāda: Utsṛjya, vidhim utsṛjya, yes. Find out that. *Devotee: Chapter Sixteen, verse twenty*-three. Yaḥ śāstra vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sa siddhim avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim [Bg. 16.23]. Prabhupāda: Translation. Translation, read. Devotee: "He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims, attains neither perfection nor happiness nor the supreme destination." Prabhupāda: That's it. (Hindi) ...bogus, bogus. This is statement of Kṛṣṇa. Can you give us the statement of Kṛṣṇa? I'll accept some foolish statement. So Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He's also giving reference to the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra. He can say anything, everything, He's God Himself, still He gives reference to the śāstra. So anyone who's speaking against the injunction of the śāstra, (indistinct). There is another verse, find out, tasmād śāstra pramāṇaṁ te, tasmād, (indistinct). Devotee: Tasmād. Prabhupāda: Śāstra. (pause) Tasmād śāstra... Devotee: I see, tasmād sarveṣu kāleṣu. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In the same Sixteenth Chapter, you will find, this verse, tasmād. (indistinct) *Devotee: It says t*-a-s-m-ā-c, tasmāc... *Prabhupāda: It is really tasmād, it has become c, and by sandhi. Tasmāc*-chāstra. *Devotee: Word*-by-word it is tasmād. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: But together (indistinct). Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...the real word is tasmād. (indistinct) translation? Devotee: "Translation: One should understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations one should act so that he may gradually be elevated." *Prabhupāda: They have manufactured different types of religions (indistinct). All these Radhaswami, (indistinct), Jains, Sikhs, they have manufactured... (indistinct) And our Vedic regulations (indistinct) Just like such a great personality as Buddha, simply he said that I do not follow the Vedic principles. (indistinct) That Buddhism could not flourish, although Buddhism began from India. (indistinct) He started this Buddha but because he did... Simply he said that I do not accept your Vedas, immediately... Such a great personality (indistinct) So anyone who does not follow the śāstra, the essence of śāstra is (indistinct) So anyone who studies Bhagavad*-gītā minutely, (indistinct). These European, American boys, because they're strictly following the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, (indistinct). Only thing is they're following (indistinct) śāstra. (indistinct) ...waste of time, śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Simply wasting time. (indistinct) Prayer has failed all over the world because they are neglecting the (indistinct). Nobody goes to church. Churches, churches are now being sold. In London, have you been in London? There are hundreds and thousands of churches, they're simply (indistinct), nobody goes there. Not only in England, in America also. In America still, they are going on, because there are (indistinct) churches, but in England I will say, it is (indistinct). Very, very nice, you have been to (indistinct)? (indistinct) ...so excellent church, there is one flaw, very big church, well constructed. Now the church authority, desiring that the somebody, he's imagining (indistinct), he's imagining that this is such a nice church so our... Government has sent somebody to take this church, he's thinking Americans may take... No, why Americans will be interested to take the church, as it is... But he's thinking... That means he wants to dismantle the church. But church now will not allow. He's finding out some customer who will take the church (indistinct). So their headquarter land is very valuable. So if the land is vacated, then you may have a little church and other land he can utilize for himself. That is his proposition. And so far purchasing the church, there may be, but others will purchase the church for dismantling and making a nice skyscraper building. They do not want actually. Church now will not allow. We say that we shall not dismantle the church, we shall utilize it as temple. We says... Crazy idea (indistinct). But my point is that church is so excellent, huge amount of money has been spent, and nobody...? (pause) (Hindi) So I chastised them, fools and rascals in meeting, but they did not protest. They accepted my chastisement. Devotee: Oh, you mean yesterday. Oh, that. Prabhupāda: Not yesterday. Today also. Devotee: Tonight. (pause) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee: I had... No one spoke to me. Prabhupāda: But they offer respect. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: We are not (indistinct), otherwise would not have... Devotee: Yes. They must have accepted. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (end) Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta *Devotee: This Bhagavad*-gītā translated into Indonesian. (pause) Prabhupāda: So will you explain me in English some of the Fourth, Fourth Chapter. Scholar: This what you got in it? What you got? Fourth Chapter. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter? Scholar: About yoga has been taught by Vivasvān, and Vivasvān taught to Manu, and Manu taught to Ikṣvāku. Prabhupāda: So only the translation is there? Scholar: Yes. Translation and some explanations. Prabhupāda: What is that explanation? *Scholar: He said that Vivasvān is the personification of Sūrya, the sun*-god. He was the first man created by Brahmā and he learns yoga from (indistinct) himself. And then we..., Vivasvān taught yoga to Manu, who is the creator of the law, and of institutions. Just explaining only the, who is Ikṣvāku, who is Vivasvān, and so on. There's no philosophical explanation. Just word by word explanations. Because of course if you compare... *Prabhupāda: But er... He said that indirectly, in the Bhagavad*-gītā, the original verse can you read? Original verse? Scholar: Śrī Bhagavān uvāca: imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Prabhupāda: Yes. This Bhagavān uvāca. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: The Personality of Godhead said. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, "I spoke this." He says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham. So Kṛṣṇa says, Bhagavān says that "I spoke". But the translation is that the Brahmā spoke. Scholar: No. Śrī Bhagavān spoke... Śrī Bhagavān spoke that... Prabhupāda: Śrī Bhagavān spoke. But you told me Brahmā. Scholar: No. Śrī Bhagavān spoke, telling people, telling Arjuna that yoga has been taught by God to Vivasvān. Prabhupāda: God, God, "By Me." He said that "I taught." Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: But where the translation that God said Brahmā... Bhagavān said that this was spoken by Brahmā. Scholar: By him, no, explanations... Prabhupāda: No, not explanations. First in the translations. Scholar: In the translations. Mentions "I", "I," mentioned. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Scholar: Yes. It's mentioned there. Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, that Bhagavān said that "I spoke." Is that? Scholar: Bhagavān said that yoga has been taught by Me to Vivasvān. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Scholar: Yes. And then Vivasvān taught it to Manu and so on. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is nice translation. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you had explained... Scholar: ...that Vivasvān is the personification of Sūrya and he is the first man... Prabhupāda: What do you mean by personification? Scholar: As the embodiment of Sūrya. So Sūrya is supposed to be... Prabhupāda: No. He says that "I spoke to Sūrya, Vivasvān." Vivasvān. Scholar: Vivasvān. Yes. Prabhupāda: So Vivasvān is a person. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Vivasvān is a person, not the personification. What is the translation, explanation given? Scholar: Vivasvān, in Indonesian is, Vivasvān (Indonesian) is supposed to be... Prabhupāda: Now what he has translated. Devotee: "The Blessed Lord said, 'I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun god, Vivasvān. Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu, in turn, instructed it to Ikṣvāku.' " Prabhupāda: Now what is the explanation? *Scholar: Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad*-gītā traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the royal order, the king of all planets. This science is especially meant for the perfection of the inhabitants, and therefore, the royal order should understand it in order to be able to rule the citizens and protect them from material bondage to lust. Human life is meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture and devotion. In other words, the executive heads of all states are intended to spread the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that the people may take advantage of this great science and pursue a successful path, utilizing the opportunity of the human form of life... *Prabhupāda: This Vivasvān is the original person of the kṣatriya family, Sūrya*-vaṁśa. *Scholar: Sūrya*-vaṁśa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? Devotee: Does he mention Vivasvān here? Should I read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Scholar: The sun is the king of the planets and the sun god (at present of the name Vivasvān) rules... Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the president or the predominating person, his name is given, Vivasvān. Scholar: He's a person. He's a man. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Scholar: From Sūrya*-vaṁśa. *Prabhupāda: Not from Sūrya*-vaṁśa. He's the origin of Sūrya-vaṁśa. *Scholar: Origin of Sūrya*-vaṁśa. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Scholar: A thing about the Bhagavad*-gītā also mentioned here, in the second verse. It's mentioned also that the Bhagavad-gītā is the oldest yoga. It's the oldest... Prabhupāda: No, the thing is... The explanation: Vivasvān is personification of Sūrya. No. He's person. Scholar: Person. I see. Yes. Person and ... Prabhupāda: His name is Vivasvān. Scholar: I see. Prabhupāda: The predominating deity in the sun planet, his name is Vivasvān. Scholar: Vivasvān, yes. And he's supposed to be the originator of... *Prabhupāda: He's the original person for the... There are two kinds of kṣatriyas. One coming from the sun*-god, and the other is coming from the moon god, candra-vaṁśa, sūrya-vaṁśa. Scholar: That's a very good correction for us. (Indonesian) Prabhupāda: Personification means he... From the explanation it appears that actually there is no person. Scholar: Yes. Originally there was person. Prabhupāda: Not was, is, is still. Scholar: Is still. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their life is long duration. Scholar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: There are kings, son of the Manu, they lived for eight, eleven arbuda years. One arbuda years means ten crores. One crore means ten millions. Ten million. So ten million years makes one crore. Such eleven crore years... There is history (indistinct) one of the Manus, he reigned over for eleven arbuda years. One arbuda means ten millions of years. So Vivasvān, Vivasvān he's living for so many years. Just like Brahmā's age is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You find out the verse, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. What is the Chapter? Devotee: Chapter 8, 17. Prabhupāda: Chapter 8, 17th verse. *Devotee: Sahasra*-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. Prabhupāda: Now what is the translation? Devotee: "By human calculations..." Prabhupāda: No, no, I want to know this (indistinct). Scholar: He who knows that the day of Brahmā is thousand yuga and that the night of Brahmā is also 5,000 yugas is he who knows the truth of day and night. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the explanation? Scholar: The explanation is that, according to the traditions that Brahmā, the day or the night of Brahmā's is one thousand yuga. Prabhupāda: What is that yuga? Scholar: It's mentioned in Chapter 4, 8. Four, verse eight. Yuga is eighths, one yuga is, it's written here a hundred years. One yuga is one eighths between the one incarnations to another incarnations. Prabhupāda: But he has not given actual calculation of the years. Scholar: The years, he mentioned here. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Scholar: Only the yuga of..., Kṛta*-yuga is four thousand years. And Tretā-yuga is three thousand years. Prabhupāda: No. *Scholar: Dvāpara*-yuga is two thousand years, and Kali-yuga is one thousand years. Prabhupāda: One thousand years? (laughs) We have already passed five thousand years. Scholar: Wait. Oh. There is one thousand years, god's years. If it is human years it is four million three thousand, three hundred twenty thousand years. Prabhupāda: Total. There is... Scholar: Four millions and... Prabhupāda: That is the total yuga. Scholar: Yes, in human years. Prabhupāda: Human calculation. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Indonesian Scholar: : Four million three thous... four, three, two... *Prabhupāda: About forty*-three. About forty-three hundred thousands of years. *Scholar: Forty*-three. Prabhupāda: Hundred thousands of years. That makes it yuga. Scholar: Yuga, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Brahmā's daytime is such forty three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand. Scholar: One thousand. *Prabhupāda: Forty*-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand. So forty-three hundred thousand... That forty three, five zeros, and again three zeros. Then how... what it comes? *Scholar: Forty*-three millions. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Forty*-three, five zero, upon forty-three, add eight zeros. Then what it comes to? Scholar: Ah. Prabhupāda: Eh? Scholar: (Indonesian) Billion. Four billions of years, four billion years. Prabhupāda: Four billion years is twelve hours of Brahmā's life. Scholar: Just one day only. Prabhupāda: One day only. Similarly one night. Then one day. Scholar: Eight billion years one day of Brahmā. Prabhupāda;: Yes. So that is the calculation. Scholar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So things are very complicated, and people should understand very rightly. They are, they are frog philosophy. Frog philos... We say frog philosophy. Frog philosophy means that a frog who lives in the well, he has got experience of water, three cubic feet. And if he's given to understand that there is Atlantic Ocean, it is very difficult for him to understand. So on the whole, it is... But it is not very completely explained. And our point is this, or at least it will give some idea of the Bhagavad*-gītā to the people. Scholar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But still it has to be expanded, has to be more explicitly ex..., advertised. So our point is this, that we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad*-gītā. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we are spreading the knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā. So this is a world-wide organization and you know something about us, about this movement. So this part of the world, this is Southeast Asia? Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Southeast Asia. Why not combine it, join together, and scientifically preach this cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People will be very glad to accept it. *Scholar: What is the place of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam here, in this movement? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Scholar: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Just like before learning any literature, one has to read the first book, ABCD. The Bhagavad-gītā is the ABCD. It is just beginning of understanding of what is God. ABC. When one has passed the entrance examination, then he gets the opportunity of studying Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the Bhagavad-gītā the last instruction is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is explaining Himself, and at last He says that you surrender unto me. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So if one has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, then He's admitted in the college of studying Bhāgavata. Before that he has no place. Just like without passing entrance examination, nobody's admitted in the college course. Similarly, without understanding Bhagavad-gītā perfectly well, one cannot understand what is Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata is the graduate study. So this Vedānta-sūtra, the Vedānta-sūtra is the summarized study of all Vedic knowledge. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the explanation of Vedānta-sūtra. So people are in darkness about this great knowledge and the science of God, all over the world. They are misled. They're being misled. Misled in this way, that this human form of life is specially meant for understanding God. The animals are not very (indistinct), but the present leaders they're keeping all the human being in the animal condition of life. Their chance of becoming conscious about God is being sacrificed, being misled, by so-called economic development, plans. All this economic development means, they're meant for this bodily comforts. Any department of knowledge at the present moment, they're simply aiming at giving some artificial comfort to this body. But these rascals, they do not care to know that however I keep this body comfortably, I'll have to give it up. And after giving up this body, what is my next position, they do not know. They do not know. This is darkness. This is darkness. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to give enlightenment to the people at large, to understand the values of life. Not to live like animals, eating, sleeping, sex life and dying. This is animal life. This is the best humanitarian welfare activities: to make people understand scientifically what he is, what is God, what is our relationship with God. So the Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of this science. So this should be presented very scientifically. One who knows perfectly well about this Bhagavad-gītā. These are the (indistinct) crucial point. That one... Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. There's so many very touch(?) point. If they are not very, explained nicely people will remain in darkness. Scholar: But we think in the present day, Indonesia's, we think about harmonizing spiritual and material aspects of life, this our... *Prabhupāda: No. No. Harmonize means... First of all you must know what is harmonization. Harmonization means that this material life means bodily concept of life. This is material life. "I am this body." Generally people think like that: "I am Indonesian." "I am American." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." And they take care of the country where he's born. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijyadhīḥ, but this conception, bodily conception of life, has made the whole human society like cats and dogs. "It is my land. It is my..." Just like a dog. As soon as another dog comes. "Bark, bark, bark, bark. Why you have come here? Why you have come here." So this, this kind of harmonization is dog civilization. Scholar: Well I think it's the... *Prabhupāda: No. No. No. You cannot... First of all you have to understand what is spiritual value of life. Then you can harmonize. If you do not know what is spiritual life, then what you can harmonize? That is the teaching of Bhagavad*-gītā. In the beginning, when Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru, then He began to explain about the value of life. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam [Bg. 2.13], find out this verse. It's in the Second Chapter. Which verse? Devotee: Two, thirteen. Prabhupāda: Second Chapter, thirteenth verse. Find out. Read it. *Scholar: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tattva na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Prabhupāda: Translation. Scholar: "After using this body, from childhood to youth and to old age and afterwards changes into another body. He who is wise, will not be, will not be disturbed." Prabhupāda: Now, here is the indication that after death we have to accept another body. Is it not? Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, what kind of body you are going to accept? There are 8,400,000 varieties of bodies. Is it not? Do you know that? Scholar: No, we don't know that. (indistinct) varieties of bodies. Prabhupāda: There are forms of body in the water, in the land, so many trees, plants and there are so many insects, reptiles. Then birds, then there are beasts, then there are human being. So there are 8,400,000 forms of body. Here it is indicated that after giving up this body, the soul is going to accept another body. Now the human civilization, is it not duty of the human society to know what kind of body I am going to accept? *Scholar: No, I think it's up to God and karma*-kāṇḍa. *Prabhupāda: So then they must know what is karma*-phala. This is a fact. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. But they are..., do not know how to execute karma. They're doing all kinds of sinful activities. So, suppose after this body, on account of my sinful activities, I am going to become a rat or cat or snake or a tree, then what is the use of my so much, how you'd say, jumping over nationalism and this ism and that. If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my, this so-called nationality at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? What is that education? You are darkness, nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life. Scholar: At least we can start from living moral life. *Prabhupāda: But they're not living, they're not living. They are doing all kinds of sinful activities, they are drinking, they are having illicit sex, they're gambling, they're killing animals. Very sin... Everyone is engaged in these things. Maybe few percentage people are not engaged. But the throughout the whole world they're implicated in these four kinds of sinful activities. How you can expect that he's going to have next body very nice? No. That is not possible if you believe in karma. According to karma... Just like here in the human society there is law that if you kill a man, you should be also killed. Similarly, in God's laws so the same law is there. Māṁ sa, māṁsa. If I eat an animal then he will have the chance to eat me next life. This is karma. Who is caring for all these things? Who is caring? Nobody's caring. They're slaughtering animals like anything. So this kind of adjustment will not help. They must know scientifically what is the value of life. They must take information from authorized scriptures. Then the human society will be profitable. Otherwise no. Just like there is next life, a boy is educated to have good education so that in the next life-means when he's young man*-he will be happy. He's preparing for the next life. The boy is being educated. That means he's preparing for the next youthful life. Youthful life is meant for preparation for the next old age life. Then what we are preparing now for the next body? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: Scholar: I think it's also according to the society. First we have to learn and after we come to the stage of sannyāsī, only then we are... Prabhupāda: It is no question of sannyāsa, sannyāsa you take or not take, you must be in knowledge what is your next life. Scholar: But if the...? Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say we shall keep ourself in darkness about our next life? Is that your philosophy? Scholar: Well I think we have to start from... We give a child educations and then gṛhastha, and vānaprastha,... Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a, different stages. But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that what is this meaning of gṛhastha, and vānaprastha, and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is the meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know, that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate of life. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: If he does not know, if he is in darkness for the next life, then what is the meaning of this gṛhastha and vānaprastha and this...? Scholar: We believe in the stage of life so we prepare from childhood and after ... *Prabhupāda: Yes, not only we, but everyone should prepare from the childhood. This is... This Bhagavad*-gītā is not meant for a particular class of men. It is meant for the human society. So this education should be spread all over the world to save them from pitfalls of a life of darkness. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do not mean that the Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindus, or for the Indians, or for the Indonesians. No, no, it is meant for everyone. They should know the science. Scholar: Are there Christian also, or Muslim also joining this... Prabhupāda: What's this? Can't you see? There are many Christians, many... Scholar: Do they have to be Hindus first? Prabhupāda: Well, why you are stressing to become Hindu and Christian? It is that education for understanding the values of life. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Hindu, Muslim. Any intelligent man will take it. Suppose if you want to be a great mathematician does it mean that you must be a Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan? Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion... *Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions-the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division*-all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being. Scholar: This divisions only in Hindus? Prabhupāda: No, this division is meant for everyone. Scholar: Mohammedans also accept this divisions? *Scholar: Yes. They're accepting. If you don't accept any scientific truth that is your business. That is your business. If you say*-two plus two equal to four-"No I don't accept." That is your business. But two plus two equal to four, that is a fact everywhere. Now how these boys have accepted? Now they have got sacred thread, they have become brāhmaṇa. Scholar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And they're acting actually as brāhmaṇa. There are many Mohammedans also. You came from Mohammedan. So it is the process of presenting the perfect educational system. Then everyone will accept. Any intelligent man will accept. It is a science. So you have to push this scientific movement throughout the whole world. That is our program. It is not a so*-called Hindu cult or a Indian cult. No. It is science to be accepted by everyone if he at all wants to, I mean to say, purify or make his life perfect. Otherwise, he's in darkness. He does not know what he's going to accept another body. He has to accept another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. It does not say that this kind of body, dehāntaram, another body. Not..., it is up to you to select what kind of body I am going to accept. I am going to become a cat or dog or a demigod or a big man or a... They do not know yet. This science is unknown to the whole world. We are trying to push on this scientific movement. This is our position. So if you want to cooperate with this scientific movement, then we are prepared. But if you have some other idea, that is different thing. But if we take it seriously as a scientific movement, then we are prepared to cooperate. And if (you) should do, simply formality will not help us. *Scholar: I think we think our stage has not yet come to that level because Bhagavad*-gītā only, still very few understand it. Prabhupāda: People are in darkness. You mean to say when you said that we have not come to that stage, that means that you want to remain in darkness? Does it mean? You don't want to take this light. You have not come to this stage. Does it mean you want to remain in darkness? Scholar: Well, not really. But step by step we have to enlighten ourselves. Prabhupāda: But step by step... You have to know it. Step by step is there. First of all you have to fix up that we have, this is the goal. Then we get step by step. But if you don't accept the principle, then you remain in darkness. Scholar: I think the principle is the same but by the way to perform... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Your principle is to teach the principles of Bhagavad*-gītā, then you have to take the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. If you want to read Bhagavad-gītā but you remain in other atmosphere then it will not help. It is simply waste of time. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ janayati [SB 1.2.7], therefore Bhagavad-gītā is also there. I'm talking to the most confidential part of this knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. What is that? Find out. The Eighteenth Chapter. I think sixty-three verse. What is that verse sixty-three? Devotee: Iti te jñānam ākhyātam, "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge." *Prabhupāda: Before that verse. Sarva*-guhyatamam. Ah, yes, yes. Sixty-three. Just open to sixty-three. *Scholar: Sixty*-three. Prabhupāda: Read it. [break] Scholar: (indistinct) probably do... Prabhupāda: Whatever you like. Scholar: Whatever you like. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you like. That independence is there always. But he has... Just like we are speaking. This is the aim of life. Now if you like then take, you'll not take*-that depends on your independence. So that independence is all... Before that independence is there, therefore we are sometimes degrading from this human life to cats' and dogs' life. So it is the duty of the human society to save the human being to degrade, from becoming again cats and dogs, or to elevate him higher and higher. Does it mean that we are, we shall be satisfied with our present stage of life without knowing what we are going to accept? Is that very nice proposal? Or we shall try to elevate the human society, that is higher. Scholar: Our aim is the same, to elevate the human being, but... Prabhupāda: But then you have to accept the means. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If you do not accept the means, simply expecting that our aim is the same, will not act. You have to accept the means. That means, it is explained in the next verse, sixty*-four, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. What is that? Sixty-four? *Scholar: Sixty*-four, sarva-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva*-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ śṛṇu me paramaṁ vacaḥ, iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. Then sixty-five, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Scholar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So one has to become... If one is actually eager and serious for fulfilling the aim of human life then he has to take to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness*-man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So one has to become, if one is actually eager and serious for fulfilling the aim of human life, then he has to take to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiṣyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me [Bg. 18.65]. So if you do not teach this lesson to the human society then he will remain in the darkness. This is the purport. This is the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. Scholar: Mām here means Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Scholar: Or Brahmā. Prabhupāda: Why you bring Brahmā? Then you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Scholar: We are asking. Prabhupāda: Why you are asking? Because you do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Scholar: (indistinct) here. Prabhupāda: You are asking because you do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Scholar: Because it's mentioned here. *Prabhupāda: Oh. He says mām. He says everything mām, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mām eva, everything mām, "I". So why you should bring Brahmā? Kṛṣṇa says everything "I". You are asking about Kṛṣṇa. That means you do not understand Kṛṣṇa. But it is clearly said mām, Kṛṣṇa. We have, therefore, given the name "Kṛṣṇa consciousness", nothing else, neither Brahmā consciousness, nor God consciousness. "Kṛṣṇa consciousness." The whole concentration is to Kṛṣṇa. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the fact. *Scholar: The explanation here is that from this śloka to the seventy*-two... Prabhupāda: Hm? Scholar: From this śloka... Prabhupāda: Which this śloka? *Scholar: From sixty*-four. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Scholar: To seventy*-two. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Scholar: Kṛṣṇa gains or speaks as a guru, guru-śiṣya*-samudbhava. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is the original guru, (indistinct) guru for everyone. Scholar: So here is as a guru. Prabhupāda: Guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore guru will also teach to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Scholar: From this movement what has been, what is the plan, and what is the... *Prabhupāda: Everyone should become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the plan. That is the whole plan. That is stated. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Just like this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, this is man-manā, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. This Kṛṣṇa chanting means thinking of Kṛṣṇa, immediately, man-manā. Mad-bhaktaḥ, there is in the temple, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa deity, they are worshiping. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, they are regularly, according to the rules and regulations from morning to up to ten, there is worshiping method. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], offer your obeisances. Then you come back to Me. That is perfection. They do not know where they are going, whether they are going to be cats and dogs. But here by this process you go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore this should be adopted. Why should you spoil your energy to become cats and dogs? This is... Scholar: It's time for real life. *Prabhupāda: That is real life. That is real life, to go back to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you do not know where you are going. After all, you're preparing for something next. But your energy is being spoiled because do not know. But if you become kṛṣṇa*-yājī, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, is it very difficult? Man-manā. You think of Kṛṣṇa, you worship Kṛṣṇa, you are going to the temple, you're offering some prayers. That's all right. What is the difficulty if you offer the prayer to Kṛṣṇa? You have to do the same thing in a systematic way. Then mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25], then you go back to Kṛṣṇa. Next life is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. *Scholar: Well, I think the Bhagavad*-gītā also mentions that many ways lead to God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Many ways, that is all right. But the best way He suggests who comes back to Me. (chuckles) Many ways, there may be. You can go to hell, that is also another way. Therefore He says in the sixty-..., seven, sarva dharmān pari... "I have already suggested many ways. You give up, kick up all these ways. You simply surrender unto Me." That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So intelligent man should take it. And still if he likes many ways let him do that. Let him go to hell. Who can check it? Yānti deva vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ... [Bg. 9.25]. He has suggested. You can go to the higher planetary system, you can remain here, you can become cats, you can become dogs, you can become bhūta, ghost. You can become anything you like, but if you become mad*-yājī, if you become a devotee of Me, then you come to me. Now it is up to..., our position to make choice whether he is going to be a ghost, or become, going to become the associates of Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct)? *Scholar: What is His Divine Grace idea about Kali*-yuga? *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga means degraded age. Scholar: It's the time for that. Prabhupāda: Degradation. Scholar: It's the time for that. Prabhupāda: Yes. It has begun for the last 5,000 years. It's going on. Scholar: And how long it will be? *Prabhupāda: And it will remain for another 427,000's of years. The whole duration is 432,000's of years, out of which we have passed only 5,000 years. That means the balance is 427,000 years. So at the end, people will forget everything about God. There are descriptions of the Kali*-yuga. So if we again come back to Kali-yuga, it is not very good for us. The symptoms have already begun. So actually, we must do something by which people may derive some benefit. Simply for formalities there is no value. And that, things are already mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have to simply follow the program, then life will be perfect. (Hindi) Fruit. Give them this prasādam, this fruit. Scholar: How long this movement has been started? Prabhupāda: This movement started from since 5,000 years, since Kṛṣṇa appeared. We have not start... manufactured this movement. We are just pushing on the same movement, rightly, that's all. We can say how long this movement has been started rightly. Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Prasādam means little. The others may come, what will be such and such, again you have to bring, till somebody comes. Devotee: We'll be going shortly. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if somebody comes, again you have to go, bring back. People are not come here to fill up their bellies. (laughs) Little prasāda, that will satisfy. Only one piece. Scholar: This movement started all over the world now. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Scholar: How many countries for instance? Prabhupāda: Whole world. Especially in America. America, Europe. From here we are going New Zealand, Australia. Scholar: Are they in Arabic countries also? *Prabhupāda: Arabic countries also, our men from (indistinct) that is an Arabic country. We send to Pakistan also, but due to this war, the American Embassy, they asked us to (indistinct). We are going again, Bangladesh. We have got Russia and we are negotiating with China also. So because you are here, you have taken the importance of Bhagavad*-gītā, why not do it rightly and propagate nicely. That is our proposition. Scholar: We will think about it. Prabhupāda: Yes, Think about it. Prabhupāda: When you have to go? Devotee: (indistinct) around 7. (indistinct) Scholar: (indistinct) life after death. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, bring (indistinct). Call him. Devotee: He has left. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has left, all right. You come here, near. Scholar: Life after death, he is asking. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is life after death. This is your question? Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: That whether there is life after death. What is your question? Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is your opinion? It is a fact. Just like you are a child, now you are a young man. So you have changed your body. Similarly, when you change this body, you get another body. Scholar: Life after death. Prabhupāda: That is life after death. Guest: Is there any world... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Any description of the worlds... *Prabhupāda: World is vast. So according to your karma... Just like you have got a particular type of body. You are young man, there is another young man also. Still, his body and your body is not exactly the same. His bodily feature, your bodily feature, his intelligence, your intelligence, they are all different. But a child grows to become young man, that's a fact. You are a child, another child was there. So they have got now different body. Just like you have got a different body from your childhood life. Is it not? But you know that you had a childhood body, although the body is not there. This is transmigration from one body to another. Just like a dream at night. You change this body. You accept another body. And although you're lying down on your bed, you've gone to some other place. Subtle body. Take for... This is a fact that we change our bodies so many ways, but I, the soul, I remain. So therefore, when this body will not exist I'll exist in another body. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We can experience this, and it is confirmed in the śāstra. After destruction of this body we are not disturbed. I, as living entity, I remain, I accept another body. Scholar: Maybe the question is that whether the life after death is the same like our life here... Prabhupāda: But, but, that is not (indistinct). If you get another body, naturally the same way of life. Same way of life means this life... This material body means four functions: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse, and defense. So as soon as you take another body, it's the same business (indistinct). It may be dog's life, it may be cat's life, or it may be human life. But the business is the same: eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defense. Scholar: And the idea of nirvāṇa, and soul... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is an... That you have to prepare. That is not for the cats and dogs. That is meant for really human beings, those who are actually executing life as human beings. That is not for the cats and dogs. (pause) All right. Thank you very much. Scholar: Thank you for this time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now my request is that you have got some, you have so many, you're interested in Bhagava... Preach like this. Scholar: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What he's asking? Scholar: About what we are planning. Prabhupāda: Planning, but you're not prepared for the planning. Otherwise I could have given you the plan. But you are not prepared. You say you think of. Then you think of, what can I do? Scholar: Yes. Prabhupāda: I was prepared to give you the plan. Yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Scholar: I hope next time when this, you'll come here when the, we think we are prepared already. We hope so. (pause) Guest (Indian lady): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be all right. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everything will be all right. Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the duty of everyone. Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And get these books. Guest: Yes, I will buy these books. Thank you. (end) Morning Walk -- February 28, 1973, Jakarta Prabhupāda: He doesn't want any improvement. He wants to keep it as a... Just like professional church, temple. Devotee (1): They're more attached to the external form that they already have. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is which we call churchianity. Christianity, churchianity. Devotee (1): Churchianity. (laughs) Devotee (2): Also he may lose his position because he has no knowledge (indistinct). Prabhupāda;: That is going on everywhere. These, our Indian people, they're not interested in God. They're interested in (Hindi), some blessing, because they can make improvement in their material position. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: So therefore these rascals come, they give them (Hindi or sounds like "ashes bath", maybe referring to Sai Baba), I give them, "I am so powerful, I give you (Hindi)," and they give them money, "Oh, here is a sādhu." They'll get (Hindi) very cheaply, and make money. Instead of two lakhs, I'll make ten lakhs, by the (Hindi). And he's Sai Baba, like rogues, they come to show them some magic, that "I have got some power, I can do anything I like, and if you become my devotee, you will improve." All these yogis, everything, they do like that. Mahesh Yogi also: "Take my mantra. Within six months you become perfect man and whatever you like, you can do." Devotee (3): Ha ha. No restrictions. Prabhupāda: No. There is business only. Why there should be restrictions? Everyone does so, beginning from Vivekananda, Aurobindo, everyone. Aurobindo also used to say that you haven't got to do anything, you simply think of me, just like Kṛṣṇa says: "Simply think of Me." (indistinct) [break] *Devotee (3): One man came here, a haṭha*-yogī, so-called haṭha-yogī, and he was putting water in his nose and cloth in his stomach and all twisting this way, going under water, and they were all very amazed and many people came to see. Just like the circus. Prabhupāda: Yes. And then they say "I will make you perfect man, whatever you like you can... You become my disciple, give me some money." Devotee (3): And enjoy. Prabhupāda: There is a proverb, that a drowning man catches even a straw. A man is drowning, he's seeing the straw is floating, he wants to catch it. So in western countries, they are so much fed up with this materialistic way of life that any person from India comes, they think he may give something spiritual. Devotee (3): Hm. Prabhupāda: Light. Catch it. But what... Why did you not have tilaka, both of you. You have no time for tilaka? Devotee (3): Our tilaka was locked in the bathroom. The door got locked. Prabhupāda: Tilaka, why it is locked in bathroom? Devotee (3): Somehow the door became locked from inside this morning, I don't know how but we couldn't go inside. Prabhupāda: You don't get him my tilaka? All right. What is this? Devotee (3): This is called Jakarta Fair, International Fair for business trade. Once a year they come from all over the world and... Prabhupāda: This side is better than the other side. (pause) Devotee (2): They are sleeping on the street. [break] Devotee (3): ...things like this. They want to be glorious, to get what they call national spirit, nationalism, everybody is eager to improve the country. *Prabhupāda: So why do they not back this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a first*-class nation. Devotee (3): Yes, but they don't know. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) them. Take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy. Your nationality will be first*-class. [break] ...your nation, America. If they take it, everyone will take it. [break] Gambling. Devotee (3): Probably gambling, lottery. [break] That Japanese man who you asked to come today, he reads Mandarin, Chinese. I gave him our Mandarin, Chinese Back to Godhead to read yesterday. Prabhupāda: Mandarin? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: How you are Mandarin? Devotee (3): Chinese, from Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: This sky(?), they are making like Calcutta Esplanade. (indistinct) Victoria Memorial, you don't remember? Devotee (2): I've only been three days (indistinct) Śrīla Prabhupāda, before we left India. Prabhupāda: Oh. You were mostly in Bombay. Devotee (2): Yes. [break] Devotee (3): Yes. "Mata" means "eye" and they use "hari" to mean "day". "hari" means "day" here and eye is mata, so they say it's the eye of day. Prabhupāda: There is Sanskrit words like that. Divākara, divākara, sun's name, divākara. Divā means day and kara means manufacturer. Divākara, manufacturer of day, another name of sun. Cross here? Devotee (3): Yes. (indistinct) That's all right. We'll watch. No problem. [break] Prabhupāda: It is our car. [break] (in car:) (indistinct) should be noted, not (indistinct) (end) Room Conversation -- February 28, 1973, Jakarta *Prabhupāda: ...for propagating our mission because the state is inclined to take the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā. They have found that this is the wisest (indistinct). Take advantage of this opportunity and (indistinct) in schools, colleges, for teaching (indistinct). They have already translated Bhagavad-gītā, they have got very good results... Devotee (1): In this language there are three translations. Prabhupāda: Three? Devotee (1): Translations. Three editions by different authors in Indonesian language. The most recent, I will try to contact the author today, the man who translated it, I'll try to find him. Prabhupāda: But unless one is realized soul how he can... Devotee (1): No. It is impersonal interpretations. *Devotee (2): So we must encourage them to translate Prabhupāda's Bhagavad*-gītā, because they're inclined. They like... They want subject matters. So why not translate Prabhupāda's books and let the government distribute them and introduce them. Devotee (1): Only they several times suggest to me that we donate the books because they don't have money to print their own books. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): They have not facilities, money, to actually print and publish and distribute. That is why they are so attracted to us because we have the books and they know we have the power to print and distribute. But they have no money, no power to do it. Prabhupāda: No. If they want, we can do that. Devotee (2): Tell them to translate and we can publish it. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) If the government sponsor, then we can invest money and (indistinct). Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: We can print. Devotee (2): Dai Nippon, we have credit also. Prabhupāda: We can do anywhere. That is the difference. As far as the government must encourage it as soon as we translate and distribute, they should give us full facility. Devotee (2): Full facilities for... Prabhupāda: All the schools, colleges will take it. Devotee (2): Oh, yes. I see. I see. Prabhupāda: You can distribute it at cost price. That we can do. Devotee (1): They should read it all over this country. They... *Prabhupāda: All over the world. It is called spiritual bankruptcy all over the world and leading men are thinking this catastrophe, and the only hope is Bhagavad*-gītā. (indistinct) ...religion there is no science. There is no philosophy. Buddhist religion there is little (indistinct). Otherwise... Devotee (1): They are bankrupt and we are billionaire in spiritual life. (pause) Tomorrow the professor of Sanskrit has made appointment, a lady from University of Indonesia. She speaks English very well also. (pause) I will go speak with them see if they can bring their altar. (offers obeisances) [break] Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): Yes. He's very nice. Actually he wants to become initiated but he can't chant. The only thing he doesn't chant rounds... Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee (1): He says that if I do that I can't do my business and he has many reasons. For some ten days he chanted sixteen rounds and then he just stopped and now he doesn't chant at all. But he's very sincere. He works very hard. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): I will tell him. I have told him many times. Actually it took a long time to get him to read your books, and then when he read, then we told him, "You must chant. You must hear. It takes time to (indistinct)." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): The only problem is that in his community he's rejected. Prabhupāda: Rejected? Devotee (1): Yes, because a few years ago his family left him and his wife and children deserted him, and he... The wife told many stories about him that he was very, doing degraded things, and so everyone rejects him. And when he speaks to Indian people they reject. He irritates them. And also sometimes he is, it can be changed, but he is, he makes them irritated a little too much pride, but he can be changed because he's chanting so much. But he tries very, very hard. Only we have to get him to agree to chant. And now he has another wife and a child. Prabhupāda: A child? Devotee (1): A child. One boy was born just before we came here in August and he seems to be a devotee, the baby, because he, whenever you say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," he smiles. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Why he's not married man? Devotee (1): Another wife, second. He says it was a grave mistake because if we had come sooner (indistinct) So we're trying to engage him. Also this girl which you're going to initiate, she can speak a fair amount of Indonesian already, and she can help translation work (indistinct). That girl has a sister who also chants sixteen rounds and follows the rules. Though sometimes in her past she failed and stopped and she is not as steady. So I didn't recommend. I don't know... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): (indistinct) ...that is better because they're sisters and if one is a devotee... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): Because also, even if someone is expert in English, if they don't practice or come in touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they still cannot say. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Devotee (1): If Macmillan publishes Bhagavad*-gītā in English is there any difficulty for us to publish by another company (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): The professor, head of the department of Sanskrit at the University of Indonesia... About 9:30, I made appointment and if we could influence her also then we will have some facility to preach in the university. (indistinct) ...Hindi (indistinct) very nicely, tomorrow morning. They want us to arrive at 7:30 in their temple and many people will come and it will be very nice. They'll bring the vyāsāsana all the way there. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): Actually I think these Indian people are not very intelligent. Even we have preached to them over a year and they say, "Yes, Swamiji. Yes, Swamiji, yes we understand," but they don't. And they're offering respect but how much philosophy they can grasp, I don't think it's very much. But the younger ones, about ten, twelve, fifteen years old, they're very intelligent. There were some boys there also who used to come to our kīrtana. And I remember how they grasped the philosophy before. They could repeat it, but they didn't remain steady. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): That is a problem in this Indian community. They are very, many kinds of envy. And their enviousness makes everyone... For example we had kīrtana. We were having every night but many children told me that "I would like to come but my parents won't let me come." Because they are saying gossip, rumors, things like this. This girl who we want to initiate, she would come every, every day without fail and her, even her parents would say, "Why are you going there? Everybody is talking about you." So, socially, they, maybe now they will change, but so far they are rejected. Devotee (1): (indistinct) ...newspaper, there's an article about us in the newspaper right here, (indistinct). Devotee (1): There's a magazine called Express like Time magazine, News magazine and it says, "Attention to the intelligence agency of this country, that the leader of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is coming here, and they should consider trying to stop you from coming here because it's possible this Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is connected with hippies and narcotics and things like this." But tomorrow there is a reporter from Tempo magazine, which is better magazine, like Time or Newsweek. And if we can get favorable article from him, then it will counteract. Before you came it was announced in all of the newspapers. All of the newspapers, they announced that you were coming, before. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Devotee (1): Not yet. But one man came yesterday who was very interested, big local paper and Associated Press International, the man in charge was in San Francisco for Ratha*-yātrā, and he saw you there and took prasādam also. And he wants to take some color photographs for international coverage. (indistinct) I think in Indonesia they're usually a bit slow so a week later they will cover. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): You wrote a letter to me from Sydney in which you said that the preaching program was very nice, but by your experience, it takes much time and money. And how will we do saṅkīrtana and do prasādam distribution and cooking all at the same time? Then you said, "You can think this over with a cool head and we will discuss more when we come." Prabhupāda: First thing is that we (indistinct). Devotee (1): (indistinct) The translation we have done so far, some, it seems to me, not right. Although I can't read it, I've tried so many times to print it, but I can never get it printed. And it seems that if it was a good translation... Prabhupāda: Why not? (indistinct). Devotee (2): (indistinct) Devotee (1): (indistinct) We can tell because sometimes we ask their help to clean sometimes. Please make this very, very clean and they (indistinct). There are intelligent here, in Jakarta? They have Theosophical Society with a large following, and there's many Buddhist people who are very intelligent. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): Today is Wednesday. They meet on Thursday. I'll go see her today. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): They meet at 6 o'clock and our meeting is 7 o'clock so maybe I should invite them because I don't think there will be time to go there. If you would like to stay a few more days I can arrange for more meetings. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Devotee (1): In the Theosophical Society, not everyone, but one leader I spoke to, the others too maybe liked it, (indistinct) (pause) Should we go to the same place for the walk? It is too far...? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) [break] Devotee (1): (later, on the walk) Yes. Easy Journey, Topmost Yoga, Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa trilogy, you have got? Devotee (2): I have volume 1 and volume 3, but my volume 2, they are all finished. But I've ordered them from Karandhara. (pause) (end) Guest (1): ...he was born in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: We have got our friends in Tokyo. Guest (1): (Japanese) Prabhupāda: So you are trying to understand our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Guest (1): (Japanese) ...not in Japanese language. Now you have some Japanese language also? Prabhupāda: Japanese people we have got. Devotee: I don't have any but in Japan they have it. I can get it by post. I will write a letter. Prabhupāda: So you like Kṛṣṇa? You like Kṛṣṇa? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are staying here in Jakarta? Guest (1): One year more. One year more. And I proceed to Beirut, Morocco. From Rabat, Morocco, I go to (indistinct) Frankfurt (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have got temple there. Guest (1): Edinburgh. Prabhupāda: What is the address, Edinburgh? Devotee: Scotland. The address is here, Flat No. 6, 11 Greenhill Place, Scotland, Edinburgh. Guest (1): But only one year, I'll be. I'll go back to Tokyo. I have my house, Tokyo. At about 1980. Still I have my house, my mother (indistinct) small house there (indistinct) 1980, I go back. Prabhupāda: He has left Tokyo 1980? Devotee: No. He said he is going back to Tokyo by 1980. Guest (1): Yes. Go back Tokyo. My (indistinct) in Tokyo later. I left Tokyo '63 and go around India... Prabhupāda: You have been in India? Guest (1): Yes. Birla Mandir I stayed two years. Prabhupāda: Birla Mandir. Delhi. Guest (1): Delhi. Prabhupāda: I see. Guest (1): And initiated, and (indistinct) by Radhaswami. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Guest (1): And also see some Pondicherry, but never been (indistinct) this great river, Gaṅgā. (indistinct) Pondicherry (indistinct) evacuated... Prabhupāda: You stayed in India for two years? Guest (1): Yes, sir. Guest (2): One year, one year in Pakistan, Lahore. Guest (1): (indistinct) and only summer time evacuated because Lahore is north of it, Kashmir side. (indistinct) north. Prabhupāda: Sir, you are by religion Mohammedan? Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: By religion? Guest (1): No. But I study Shintoism in Japan. (indistinct) This is the base of culture, Japanese culture (indistinct) the western modern civilization based on Descartes (indistinct) many gods and goddess... Devotee: Shintoism is a very old Japanese religion, they have many worshiping of demigods and goddesses... Guest (1): Yes, the same, classic Greek mythology based on modern western civilization. And do you understand Japanese, all character (indistinct) ...logical study based on Shintoism basic of (indistinct) from south island (indistinct) and Mongolian (indistinct) one race (indistinct) one Japanese (indistinct) by Shintoism, world mythology, same as the Greek mythology, gods and (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What you are doing here? Guest (1): No program (indistinct) ...pension (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Get pension from Japan? *Guest (1): From Japan, twenty-five percent of salary. So it's not enough, same society, same society, salary time in Japan (indistinct) evacuation. I left, moreover, I have two (indistinct) in Tokyo (indistinct) by my mother and father. This is (indistinct) Before I had four*-one wife and one only daughter but both (indistinct) passed away, and widower. So I was anywhere safe alone, widower, so I left Japan '63, for India first. (indistinct) Kabul, Peshawar and Tehran, Karachi and come here '66. Too long, (indistinct) easiest place to live, easiest places to live. But too long (indistinct) So I will leave from here maybe next year (indistinct) Alexandria, Egypt and from there along the south coast Mediterranean up to Rabat, Morocco. Before pre-war time I was several times (indistinct) Suez Canal (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has traveled all over the world. Devotee: Yes. He has. Guest (1): When my young period, young period. Prabhupāda: What is your age now? *Guest (1): Seventy*-two. I like the ship, so old man prefers cheaper trip than air, (indistinct) so I take air from Indonesia (indistinct) only and take ship to Alexandria. (indistinct) From Alexandria to Morocco I take (indistinct) bus, big bus like Union Pacific before from east side the west side America, we take big bus (indistinct) four days only I arrive at (indistinct) Morocco. And maybe I cross to Andalusia, Spain, not near Madrid, Castillian (indistinct) again take ship from (indistinct) railway from Manchester to (indistinct) So still seven years I loitering. And this only to see old friend in Edinburgh, and I see old, old man (indistinct) I am also old man, not so long time, within one year I down, I never been South America, only up to Mexico so I go to (indistinct). And stay, I contracted only one contract three years but I want to work, job, one year, highest salary there so and finish I go to Argentina from Santiago Chile I take the ship again to, Sydney, my younger brother, Sydney and go back from (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Sydney also we have got temple. Guest (1): (indistinct) Where? Devotee: I can show you. Prabhupāda: Australia's, find Australia's... Guest (1): Australia, never. Only my younger brother.... Prabhupāda: Australia, Sydney. Devotee: We have a temple in Sydney, Australia. Guest (1): And Edinburgh? Devotee: 823 Hereford Street. Guest (1): Yes, sir. So you have been already... Prabhupāda: You become one of the life members of our society and you can go anywhere and stay there. Guest (1): Like Birla Mandir or āśrama in India, āśrama... Prabhupāda: In India, Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi have got branches. Guest (1): Yes. Pondicherry, Rabindranath Ashram, Pondicherry. Nanda's Ashram(?), in Bangalore. Only Delhi I've been to āśrama (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is a cap, with this Japanese (indistinct)? Guest (1): No, sir. National congress, national India. This is a (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Gandhi cap. Devotee: Indian National Congress. Guest (1): Indian National Congress Party, independent (indistinct) national pact with Indonesia ... hot. Devotee: The Muslims wear the black one and he says it is very hot but this is cool. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...nearly bald head, I cover with this... Prabhupāda: Nowadays gradually, everyone is giving up cap. First of all, only the Bengalis were the capless nation. Now gradually, it has spread all over the world. Nobody uses hats or cap. Guest (1): We like the cover cap. Guest (2): You don't shave? Guest (1): You don't shave more (indistinct) only shaving clean shave only (indistinct) Devotee: You are asking me? Guest (1): Yes. Devotee: Yes. About every two weeks. Guest (1): Every two weeks. What mean this symbol? Prabhupāda: Flag. It is flag. Guest (1): Flag? (indistinct) It is better to do like this? Devotee: Yes. Guest (1): And some Indian gentlemen only married here (indistinct) and... Prabhupāda: This is temple. Temple. Guest (1): Yes. Temple. Prabhupāda: Lord's temple. Devotee: The Lord's temple. Temple of God. Guest (1): (Japanese) Devotee: Yes. Guest (1): This quite different Japanese, Asian sometimes but European made never like this only female, lady like this Europe. Prabhupāda: No. It is sacred thread, sacred thread. Guest (1): Amulet. Devotee: Sacred thread. Guest (1): Thread. Devotee: Thread, sacred. Guest (1): Sacred thread. Not army (indistinct) pendulum no, only thread, some sacrament or some special mysterious power. Prabhupāda: Brahminical. Brahminical thread. Guest (1): Brahma, brahminical. Guest 3 Indonesian man: I explain. (Indonesian) Guest (1): Every Hindu ... Guest (3): Yes. Guest (1): Hinduism (indistinct) in India. From where you get it? Prabhupāda: You can prepare it. Guest (1): Prepare by yourself handmade. Prabhupāda: At home. Guest (1): But some... why this come sacred? Guest (3): (Indonesian) Guest (1): ...ceremony, by some ceremony purification, sanctified needed like (indistinct) But this is not sacred yet. How do become sacred this thread? Prabhupāda: You have to give up this four prohibitives. Guest (1): By sacrament? Prabhupāda: By taking vow not to indulge in four prohibitives. Devotee: Oh. I'm not very expert yet. Prabhupāda: No, you can say it in English. Devotee: Oh in English. We have a special private ceremony... Guest (1): Ceremony. Devotee: And we must take a vow of... Guest (1): A vow? Devotee: We agree. We must agree to stop certain sins. We... Guest (1): Stop the sin you mean. Devotee: Ya, ya, before. Guest (1): (indistinct) hundred eight thing. Devotee: Well, four basic sinning. Guest (1): Yes. *Devotee: Meat*-eating, eating meat, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. Guest (1): Toxication, yes. Devotee: Alcohol and those things and we must... Every day we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, sixteen times. Guest (1): Sixteen times. Devotee: On beads. Guest (1): Yes, yes. Rosary. Rosary... Devotee: After one year we may become initiated with this. And every day, three times, we use this for prayer, Gāyatrī mantra. Guest (1): Three times. How many? One time? Pray for this? Pray for this? Prabhupāda: Is this water or not? Guest (1): Beads, beads, how many? Devotee: This means that I have a spiritual master. Guest (1): Spiritual master. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda is my spiritual master. Guest (1): From master. Given by master to you. Devotee: That's right. Guest (1): So after at least one year later according some occupational training and devotion and can initiated, initiate. Not now. Devotee: There's... No. There's first initiation and second initiation. First initiation means that you are able to chant sixteen rounds and follow those four rules. Guest (1): Hm. Yes. Cardinal sins. Devotee: Like that. After six months following then you get first initiation. After one more year, then you get this thread if you... Guest (1): Oh yes. Devotee: This is after one year. First initiation is after six months. Guest (1): And this is... Devotee: After one year. Guest (1): ...like a special prize. This (indistinct) master. But this is essential and this initiation (indistinct) after novitiate. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...I'll go and take rest. Devotee: O.K. Prabhupāda: So he'll explain, I'm going to take rest. Guest (1): O.K. (pause Śrīla Prabhupāda leaves and devotee and guest continue conversation about four regulative principles and so on) Morning Walk -- March 1, 1973, Jakarta Prabhupāda: ...brāhmaṇa. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: But generally, unless they are very highly elevated... [break] ...to elevate them, harijanas. Devotee (1): Harijanas. Prabhupāda: But he did not know how to make them harijana. He was politically trying. These are old garments? Devotee (1): No. New. Prabhupāda: They are selling new. Devotee (1): Yes. This is a very well attended market, this area. Prabhupāda: Yes. I can see. When the market opens? Devotee (1): About 9 o'clock or 9:30. Then they open until 1(2):30 and close all afternoon. All over Jakarta they close all afternoon and at five o'clock then they open... Prabhupāda: And go then up to 10:00. Devotee (1): 8:30. *Devotee (2): It's a good system in a country with this weather, very hot in the afternoon, to close the business in the mid*-day. (indistinct) Devotee (1): : Some type of military school. Looks like naval. Prabhupāda: this road is very nice. (indistinct) What is meaning of toko? Devotee (1): Toko means store, shop. Devotee (2): If they say bookstore, they say toko booko. Prabhupāda: Toko simara? Toko simara? Devotee (1): Maybe that's one particular store. Usually they say what type of store. Toko sapater means shoe store. Prabhupāda: Sapato? Devotee (1): Sapatu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Sapato. Devotee (1): Toko bunga means flower store. They usually have the category. (pause) Prabhupāda: These are wholesale merchants? Devotee (1): It appears to be. Yes. Prabhupāda: It is just like Indian market. Devotee (1): Oh. Prabhupāda: In India also... Similarly, I've seen Philippines also like this. Japanese almost like this. Devotee (1): Yes. I was there also. Prabhupāda: Tokyo. Devotee (1): In Malaysia also (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: These are all oriental countries. Five thousand years ago this whole planet was India, Bhārata*-varṣa. That we get from history, Mahābhārata. This planet name is Bhārata-varṣa. Devotee (2): After King Parīkṣit, then it divided up, that soon after? *Prabhupāda: Divided? They are also already divided. But the culture diminished. Because the center of culture was India, Delhi. So as the power diminished, the maintenance of the culture diminished, and by contact with other types of aboriginal, they learned eating meat and gradually degraded. And they discovered different kinds of religion because... Just like at the present moment Christians are protesting why there should not be abortion. So they wanted to degraded. So the Indian culture did not allow, so the separate type of religion came out. This is the (indistinct). They wanted, "Why there should not be meat*-eating?" But Indian culture would not allow, so they become Mohammedans, they become Christians, like this. Even in India all the..., what are these Mohammedans? The Mohammedans, they are lower class men, less than śūdra. But Hindus, higher class, they would not touch it. But when the Mohammedans, that we will be on equal right, they, there is a (indistinct). Devotee (1): So there's no spiritual motive. *Prabhupāda: Later on it became political, because as soon as the spiritual power, culture become diminished, the whole thing became material. So people wanted material advantage, so separated from Vedic culture. Just like Buddhists. Buddhism was a Hindu culture. But Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal sacrifice. In the Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended under certain conditions. He even denied that, "No that also cannot be done." So therefore they are separate from Vedic culture. After all these, all these religious systems-Mohammedanism, Jewism, then Christianism, Buddhism*-they are at a stage not more than 2,000 years. And before 2,000 years, what was the culture? Devotee (1): The Christians here, get money from America. In Bali, where there's many Hindus live, they convert many people by saying, "If you become a Christian, you'll have good economy with us." Prabhupāda: And that is the Christian propaganda. Devotee (1): Same in Madras. Prabhupāda: In India, everywhere. They cannot attract people by their philosophy. It is show money, "Yes, come on, take money." (pause) Hong Kong also. [break] Very, many meat shops. Rather this vegetable,... Devotee (1): It's expensive. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): It costs a lot of money. Meat is more expensive to eat. Actually, most people, mostly they eat vegetables because it is available. But there's much fish. There's much fish and they carry around in the streets everywhere. Devotee (2): In the Eastern countries usually people eat little bits of meat but they're vegetable. It's only in the West that they eat steak. But in every restaurant, they all have meat, much chicken also. They raise chickens. (pause) Devotee (1): Tomorrow morning we have asked some Indian community leaders to come about 7 o'clock, because they want to be requested by you to do something to help make a temple or what you like. But they... Apparently they feel unhappy because we have not met with the leaders and asked them to help. Prabhupāda: Why should I put the question? They should first of all. They should come forward. Devotee (1): Well, actually that meeting with the Indians they wanted you to eat some prasādam in the room, and come inside, and request, and ask you like that. Prabhupāda: No, no. I cannot do that. Devotee (1): That was before that night they want... I think... Devotee (2): No, he doesn't understand... *Devotee (1): The night that, the first gathering at the Indian man's home, they all wanted to meet with you then but Amogha didn't know that. They were planning to come in the room and offer their services. But there was some mix*-up, and they didn't understand. They thought they had been cut off. Devotee (2): They told me they wanted you to go in the room for prasādam. But they wanted a meeting and they didn't tell me. I didn't know. Prabhupāda: I can request them. But if they deny that will be insult for me. Therefore I do not like to request them. That will be not good for them, if I request and then they deny, or they do not do. That is not that will be good for them. It is better not to request. That will be offense, if they deny. Or if they did not carry out my order, then it will be offense. Why should they put themselves in such risk? Generally it is the duty of the householder to offer, "Sir, what can I do for you?" Then I can request. But if, as a beggar, I request them and they deny, then that will be great offense for them. That will not good for them. Devotee (2): (indistinct) Devotee (1): We are almost there. Prabhupāda: So you wanted to secure place here? Devotee (1): Yes. They have a house in this area, but it is a bit far from the center of town. Prabhupāda: Never mind. It is good quarter, you can take it. Devotee (1): O.K. It is about one mile more though. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Devotee (1): O.K. Prabhupāda: This is also a center. It is congested. Devotee (1): Yes. It is near a bus station also. Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) Conversation Temple Inauguration -- March 17, 1973, Mayapur *(Srila Prabhupada first asked Śrīdhara Mahārāja to give a talk during the inauguration of the ISKCON Candrodaya Mandira in Māyāpur 1973, on Gaura*-pūrṇimā). Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . (indistinct) . . . conceived the inner most . . . (indistinct) . . . this is wonderful . . . (indistinct) . . . I am rather . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not a chance confident eh? Not a matter of the minute . . . this sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . is being conferred on me . . . (indistinct) . . . this is a permanent settlement . . . (indistinct) . . . conceived in this world . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . we are very eager to get some happiness, that even a point is very much dear to us—even a speck of happiness of the Infinite. Our Professor Sanyal, he told when he was a boy in . . . he was a man of Faridpur, and there the Ganges water is very dear. So from his childhood he was habituated to see Ganges water by drop. Drop, a drop of Ganges water, it touched someone on the head, he is seeing like this. The conception of Ganges water, it appeared in that way. But his father was serving in Chandpur, on the verge of Ganges. Once, following his father, he came he is coming this side, and passing through the Ganges water. Then he told him, "What is this?" His father told, "This is Ganges—River Ganges." "So much water! The boat is passing through Ganges water? And in an ordinary place, the Ganges water, it can never be found, can hardly be found in our country. And so much Ganges water is there that the boat is passing through." So, so much happiness. Prabhupāda: Ānandāmbudhi . . . *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanaṁ ( CC Antya 20.12). Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ. All blissfulness, all love, all divinity are so much found there, and there is everything required. All dancing— gānaṁ, nāṭyaṁ —and all amṛtam , all drink is for pleasure. *Prabhupāda: Kathā gānaṁ nāṭyaṁ (Brahma*-saṁhitā 5.56) . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kathā gānaṁ —all the words are sweet because they're subject matter is sweetness personified, Kṛṣṇa. Kathā gānaṁ pleasing everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . gānaṁ, nāṭyaṁ . And the very environment—the trees, cows, plants, everything—all fulfill our purpose. *"Oh, you are kṛṣṇa*-bhakta ? Everything for you is there." "Everything for you," offering them. "Everything. We are all your friends. You can take anything you like. We are ready for your satisfaction." Opulence—opulence being offered from all sides. That is the immediate representation throughout, for this fallen area, area idea, this idea where we the fallen souls are living. . . (indistinct) . . . That has been extended through the scriptures and the sādhu . The intimation . . . (indistinct) . . . sādhus are agents coming down from that land to here to recruit us, to take us to that. You are thus so purely representing that which you like happiness. You want happiness. "Are you seeking happiness, ecstasy? Oh, come with me. The opulence is there, khani —the mine is there—you come." How much as you can fit, you can take. How much you can contain. Your, your . . . Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song —"I have brought that good news . . ." I forget that song. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes— śrī*-vaikuṇṭha-purīāche nihsreya āśā gaṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: Kalyāṇa*-kalpataru . *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kalyāṇa*-kalpataru. Nihsreya āśā . . . Ki ache? (What is that?) Govinda Maharaja: Taniya anite brksa e . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kalpa brksha aganan. Tar ekta brksha ami ekhane karilam, kalpataru ene dilam. (Uncountable desire trees. From there I brought a tree here. Brought a desire tree.) Tarpore ki? Guru prasadete take abar . . . iye kore . . . sanskar kore tomader kache dicchi. (What after that? After purifying by Guru prasada , I am giving it to you.) *(indistinct) . . ." Kalyāṇa-kalpataru. "Many such trees and creepers are there, and only one-by*-one like to come down here for Your purpose." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa! The name is the highest medium, Mahāprabhu recommends. And it is open to all. Open to all! No much question of eligibility in taking the name. From whatever corner quarter you may come, only a sincere will is necessary: "Yes, I want!" A sincere will. "Yes, I want this." Prabhupāda: Serious . . . (indistinct) . . . necessary. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: No other qualification is necessary, only a sincere will. Only, "Yes, I want this!" Everything is there. And yes, "Come forward. I shall give you." But the will must be sincere. Śraddhā. Śraddhā , faith. Prabhupāda: Receptive, the first is faith. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Then he is here, sincere. He is not far away. Only the egoism is the wall between the two. And the egoism ignorance of karma and jñāna removed, and we are with the Lord. We are with the Lord! Tad dūre tad vantike (ISO 5). Prabhupāda: Far away. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Far for them, and near for the others—for the śraddhā*-loka . So near that we cannot conceive of that nearness. Even for that, myself is not so near to myself. He is so near to us, but we cannot conceive that. I cannot see me as much as He can see me. I cannot love me as much as He loves me. And His men love me He means love. He means love. I cannot love Him so much. I cannot uncover that relationship with the Lord. But with the divine name, the Divine Master can become crucial to the divine act of finding our destination. What is the . . . (indistinct) . . . only . . . (indistinct) . . . have sanctioned, freedom of the material sensation is there, of this material body. Prabhupāda: When the light is off, the current is off. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, our Swami Mahārāja has done a miracle! (laughingly) He has done a miracle! Prabhupāda: (laughter) . . . (indistinct) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What Bhaktivinoda conceived and Prabhupāda tried to, according to his conception, to translate into action in his last days. Anyhow, we find that through Swami Mahārāja these revelations have been fulfilled. We are happy. We are glad. We are proud of Swami Mahārāja, with love to all. Our Guru Mahārāja told that when one person comes to take dīkṣā and to stay in the Maṭha, then he said we may say that after wandering a long time in a foreign land he is again coming back to his home, homeward. Home means homeward, back to God, back to home, back to Godhead. Back to Godhead means back to home, sweet, sweet home. Our home is there and life and life is there, and nowhere else. So we may be quite free there; no apprehension of any misgivings or misunderstand misconduct. With such boldness and clear faith we can go on, onward and onward. What are we leaving on the back—that is all mortal things, transient. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Jaya oṁ viṣṇupāda paramahaṁsa parivrājakācārya Śrī Śrīmad Bhakti*-rakṣaka Śrīdhara Mahārāja ki jaya! Devotees: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: So we are thinking we are very much fortunate to hear His Divine Grace Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Paramahaṁsa Parivrājakācārya Bhakti*-rakṣaka Śrīdhara Mahārāja. He is, by age and experience, in both ways he is senior to me. I am also I was fortunate to have his association since a very long time, perhaps since 1930 or something like that. At that time, he did not accept sannyāsa . . . he just left home, vānaprastha . In his white dress he went to Allahabad. (aside) Mahārāja, I think you remember this incident, when you went to Allahabad? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, I do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you. (chuckles) Yes. At that time . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . we took prasādam on the roof. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Thank you. So on that auspicious occasion we are connected. Before that, in 1920, er, '22, when I was manager in Dr. Bose's Laboratory, young man, and I was Nationalist, Congress Party. I was a devotee of Mahatma Gandhi and C. R. Dāsa. At that time . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: When I was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That was the beginning of our . . . Prabhupāda: No, I was in connection with Congress 1917, yes, '17, when Annie Besant became the Congress president. Then I became serious in 1920, and I gave up my education. So one of my friends—that friend is also now . . . perhaps you know, Mahārāja, that Naren Mullik? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was my intimate friend. So in their house old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich men. So he informed me that, "One nice sannyāsī came to our house, and he has invited . . . in Ultadanga there is the Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic: "Why should I go? I know all the sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me: "Oh, why not? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in the Ultadanga building. At that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof—there was a small house and room—and we were welcomed, because this Naren Mullik was very rich man, and he had contributed some money. So we went to see Prabhupāda and to offer our obeisances. So immediately he said that, "You are all educated young men. Why don't you preach Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message throughout the whole world?" *So I replied to him that, "We are dependent nation. Who will hear our message? We can talk all these things after we get independence." Because I was politically*-minded at that time. Yes. So he refuted my argument. Certainly I was defeated. And I took his words very seriously, I appreciated. Then we were offered some prasādam , we came down, and my friend Naren Mullik asked me, "How did you like this sādhu ?" And, "Yes, here is a sādhu in whose hands Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message is there, and it will be done. I think he was very nice." That was my appreciation. Then 1923 I resigned my post as manager in Bose's Laboratory, and I accepted the agency for whole U.P., beginning from Mughalsarai up to Delhi, and I made my head office in Allahabad. So I was always thinking, "Oh, yes. I met a very nice sādhu ." From the very beginning that was my impression that, "I have met a real sādhu ." So actually the words lava mātra sādhu saṅge sarva siddhi haya (CC Madhya 22.54) was actually, I perceived that in a moment. I was impressed so much with Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura that it was . . . it continued. Then in 1928, when there was Kumbha- melā . . . Mahārāja, when did you join Gauḍīya Maṭha? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: '27 . . . Prabhupāda: '27. That means . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I was twenty when I met Prabhupāda in August 1926. That was my first meeting, and I joined the mission in May 1927. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. In 1928 there was a Kumbha- melā , I think. And during that Kumbha*-melā, Tīrtha Mahārāja with a party came to my shop, Prayāg Pharmacy, all of a sudden, and I thought, "Oh, these are the people I saw, Gauḍīya Maṭha. Yes." (laughter) So I was so glad. So Tīrtha Mahārāja asked me that "We are come new here. We are going to establish a temple in Allahabad. We have heard your name, so we have come to you. Please help us." "Yes, I will help you." So in this way I contributed, my attending physician contributed, and some other friends. In this way we became friends, and Tīrtha Mahārāja, old Tīrtha Mahārāja, had first meeting in my house at Allahabad, with I think, the Sarvesva brahmacārī and Dhīra Kṛṣṇa brahmacārī . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yāyāvara Mahārāja and . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So my father was Vaiṣṇava, but when I invited these Gauḍīya Maṭha sādhus , my father thought that I have invited some sādhus of the Ramakrishna Mission. (laughter) So he was not very interested. When Tīrtha Mahārāja is speaking, I call my—my father was at that time invalid—I called him that "Please come down. There is a meeting of the Gauḍīya Maṭha sādhus ." So he could not resist my request. He came down, but he did not think that some devotees have come. He thought, "These Ramakrishna Mission rascals have come." (laughter) So he was not very happy. But I told; he was sitting. He . . . so the meeting, he just criticized. Then when he heard the speech of our old Tīrtha Mahārāja, our old Godbrother, he understood: "Oh, they are Vaiṣṇavas." Then immediately after the meeting, he fell down on his feet: "I misunderstood you, sir, that you are the Ramakrishna Mission sādhu . I am so glad to meet you." *So that is the beginning of my intimate relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha. And they are coming, and whenever somebody would come, I would invite them to lecture in my house. In that way, Śrīdhara Mahārāja, at that time Ravendra*-sundara Bhaṭṭācārya, he was also invited at my house, and before . . . no, I think I invited Bhāratī Mahārāja, and you were with Bhāratī Mahārāja. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way my connection became developed with Gauḍīya Maṭha. Then gradually the process began, hariṣye tad*-dhanaṁśanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8). (chuckles) I wanted to become very big businessman, and there was good opportunity. I was very nicely associated with the chemical industry of India, Dr. Bose's laboratory, Bengal Chemical, V. K. Farr, and all of them, they liked my business organization. Then I started big laboratory in Lucknow. So that was golden days. But gradually everything becomes dead, and at last my Allahabad business was lost. It was not lost on account of some, my debts—I had to hand it over to Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose because I was his agent. So I had some debts, so I tell the, "All right, you take this business." In this way, that Prayāg Pharmacy was lost. So I was not going to . . . I was sitting at home. But this Yāyāvara Mahārāja, at that time Sarvesva brahmacārī and Atulānanda brahmacārī, they used to come to take their subscription, and they were requesting that "Why don't you come to our maṭha ? Why don't you come to our maṭha ? You are now free." So I used to visit their temple. That was not far away from my house. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In Mahratta. Prabhupāda: Mahratta. Yes. Then the intimate relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha grew. In this way, I think in 1933, yes, the Sir Malcolm Hailey came to lay down the foundation stone of Allahabad Maṭha. Mahārāja, I think you remember. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, we were coming from Vṛndāvana parikramā . Prabhupāda: Yes, parikramā . And the parikramā , that is also another incident that . . . I, I was not initiated at that time, but I had very good admiration for these Gauḍīya Maṭha people, and before, before 1933 I met Śrīdhara Mahārāja and other devotees, old Tīrtha Mahārāja. So they were very kind to me. So the parikramā , I thought, "What these people are doing on this parikramā ? Let me go." So I met them in Kosi. Perhaps Mahārāja, you may remember, and all people were going to see some Śeṣaśāyī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Including Nemi Maharaja. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time Vinode Bhai, later on Keśava Mahārāja, he informed that "Prabhupāda is going to Mathurā tomorrow morning, and he will speak hari*-kathā this evening. Anyone who wants to remain may remain, or otherwise they may prepare to go to see Śeṣaśāyī." So at that time, I think, only ten or twelve men remained. Out of them, Śrīdhara Mahārāja was one of them, and I thought it wise: "What shall I see, this Śeṣaśāyī? Let me hear. Prabhupāda will speak; let me hear." So Prabhupāda marked that "This boy . . ." *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It was better to listen to him than to see the eye*-experience. Prabhupāda: He, because he's a Vaikuṇṭha person who could understand that "This boy is eager to hear." So he very much appreciated. So when we came back to Allahabad, so Ganeśa Babu, he introduced me, that "Here is a nice devotee." So Prabhupāda immediately replied, "Yes, I have marked him. He does not go away. He hears." These very words he said: "Yes, I will accept him as disciple." Then I was initiated. In this way our relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha developed, and gradually, as it developed, the other side diminished. (laughter) Then—there are long history; it will take time—but I had the opportunity of associating with His Holiness. For several years I had the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa and Prabhupāda liked it to prepare me. Śrīdhara Mahārāja lived as a . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . as a sannyāsī . Prabhupāda: (laughs) . . . in my house, some may say, for few years, so naturally we had very intimate talks, and he was my good adviser. I took his advice, his instruction, very seriously, because from the very beginning I know he's a pure Vaiṣṇava and devotee, and I wanted to associate with him, and try to help him also in so many ways. He also tried to help me. So our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gauḍīya Maṭha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Śrīdhara Mahārāja head. And I wanted to mix . . . at that time Gosvāmī Mahārāja, one of my friend's house at Sealdah . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja, you may remember those things. I wanted to organize in so many ways, but somehow or other . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I had one house in Station Road . . . Prabhupāda: Yes Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . belonging to Naren Mullik. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It was a very small place. Prabhupāda: He wanted to rent us only for ninety rupees. I told him, "You just give me the concession." He, at that time, he was getting 125, but because I am his friend, "All right, I'll give you, ninety rupees." So that could not happen somehow or other. So I was trying from the very beginning after the disappearance of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: At that time you published Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes, in 1944. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: 1944. Prabhupāda: I think that you were at that time at my house. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: So somehow or other, this intention for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu increased, and other side decreased. Viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). But I was not disinclined, but Kṛṣṇa forced me, that "You must give up." (chuckles) And these thing is known better to Śrīdhara Mahārāja, how it decreased, decreased, decreased, then almost it become nil. And then I left home in 1950. Whatever was there, "All right, you do whatever you like." In 1954, four years, I remained as vānaprastha —why four years, from 1950 to 1959. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In the meantime, there was Bombay. Bombay life. Prabhupāda: Bombay life, yes. Bombay life—that was during my householder life. I opened an office in Bombay for my business and . . . but the Gauḍīya Maṭha was established by us. I am one of them. Śrīdhara Mahārāja also. And we made two parties for begging, collecting alms. Śrīdhara Mahārāja, myself and Gosvāmī Mahārāja. At that time he was Atula, Atulācandra Gosvāmī. So I took them to some of my friends, chemist friends, doctors friends. So I collected about five hundred rupees through this. Śrīdhara Mahārāja would speak, I introduced, and Gosvāmī . . . at that time Gosvāmī Mahārāja would canvass. (laughter) In this way three combined together, in one day or two days we . . . at that time five hundred rupees was (laughing) big amount. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: A big sum. *Prabhupāda: Big sum, yes. So Gosvāmī Mahārāja very much appreciated, and he began to speak highly about me that, "Abhay Babu is so expert, he has got so many friends, he has collected so much . . . so why does he . . . he should not be . . . the Maṭha in*-charge." In this way. "Why should he not live with us? Why he's living separately?" In this way. So Prabhupāda, Mahārāja, Śrīdhara (laughing) may remember it, he said: "It is better to live separately from you people, and he will do the necessity in due course of time." So I could not understand what Śrīla Prabhupāda meant by that. So his inclination, blessings, were always upon me, although I was unfit. But he was so kind. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . (indistinct) . . . was collecting sufficient funds to come back . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, he was afraid. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He asked you. *Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda gave me some money, that he is afraid, "You keep this money. When they need, you can . . ." So, by guru*-vaiṣṇava , and whatever position I have got, it is by guru's mercy and the Vaiṣṇavas' blessings; otherwise I am insignificant. (voice trembles) So I wish that Śrīdhara Mahārāja may bestow his blessings as he was doing always, and my Guru Mahārāja may help me. I can give some service, so long I live. That's all. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Remember . . . some dissertation of Bhāgavatam at Rādhā*-Dāmodara on Jīva Gosvāmīs (appearance) day. Prabhupāda: Yes, Jīva Gosvāmī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That gave you that last impression for possibility for foreign pracāra . Prabhupāda: Yes. I thought that Guru Mahārāja wanted, and these Gauḍīya Math people did not do anything, so let me try in this old age. The inspiration came, and I went. By his grace it has become little successful, that's all. I have no credit. *It is all the blessings of guru and Vaiṣṇava. That's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening, because I am not at all bona fide position. But it is truly chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava*-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Are you going . . . (indistinct) . . . kindly talk with your . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That will be . . . (indistinct) . . . carried to us, the land of gold and Golden Avatāra. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am always speak to this, my American disciples, that "You are so much, I mean to say, taken care of by God. This is . . . your position is very good. Now you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you become a perfect nation." That I preach always. "By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you have got everything. All material opulence. *Now make it plus Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be very nice." Lakṣmī*-Nārāyaṇa. So these boys are trying, very sincerely and seriously, and I hope, even I do not live many more years, they will carry out this order. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: The flow coming down from Him. We are in that current, so we are also counted within that current. Prabhupāda: And our Gauranga Mahārāja . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Prabhupāda said, Bhaktivinoda dhara kakhana ruddha hoibe na. (The tradition of Bhaktivinoda will never be stopped.) Prabhupāda: Ta ki hote pare! (Is this possible?) This is not possible. This is not possible. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) . . . we are also counted within that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . camp. At other . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Other times being washed away: keno māyār bośe, jāccho bhese (Gītāvalī, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Bol), and we are being washed, washed away, by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. (laughter) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) . . . participate. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Everything is there. Everything is there. (break) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This . . . this āśrama is being opened today. What is it's position? In Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we find: *Vana*-vāsa —that plain living, with minimum materials for our . . . to help our life, that is vana-vāsa , a simple life, plain living-high thinking. Simple life . . . but there also we are master of that, that little thing, that sāttviko vāso . Most conducive to our religious life, no grandeur, opinion, material enjoyment etc. That is sattvica-vāsa-vana-vāsa. *Rajasa*-vāsa is a . . . is a life fired . . . we are engaged in various activities in the upliftment of the society and the world and its civilisation. That is rajasa , where the maximum energy is spent to improve the paraphernalia where we live to make us comfortable. *Tamasa*-vāsa , due to sadanam , without caring for any social life, only . . . only sense pleasure . . . maximum and minimum giving to others in society or any paraphernalia, reckless life, a life in the clubhouse or a hotel or something like that is an irresponsible life, tamasa . Due to sadanam, man-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam and if we live our life in the house of the Lord we may be . . . we may dive ourselves in any amount of grandeur or anything of the type but still it is nirguṇaḥ because we are not master there. We are servant, we are servant, the vana-vāsa to simple with minimum material surround our self to live but still there we are master, we command but here we are mere servant everything to be solved whatever we shall see there all around. *Even a tree, even a creeper even a dust, that is to be solved and not to enjoy, nor to renunciate. That is a form of life, a life of worship, a life of devotion, eh. Not only to the Deity's of the Lord but including all His paraphernalia and to see that they are also serving the Supreme Entity. With this idea to be a serving factor, in all serving environment . . . the Supreme Lord, man*-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam , so we have come, to live here a life a nirguṇaḥ life, guṇa-tīta, guṇa-tīta , that really (coughing in the background) *Crossing all sorts of reality with this material. Directivity with this material world whatever of conception it may be. And to learn that, īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ . (Iso mantra 1) The fundamental truth given in the Upaniṣad, Īśopaniṣad , that: īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ , that in everything there is the presence of the Supreme Entity and also the Supreme Lord with this conception we are to live in such a training house. I was told that in Back to Godhead one gentlemen he wrote that so*-called universities and the colleges and the schools are slaughter houses, hmm? I'm very much pleased with this idea. *Yes they are nothing but slaughter houses and this sort of institution but what our Guru Mahārāja has inaugurated in this world to uplift us and all jīvas , towards the Supreme . . . Supreme worship, the loving service of the Supreme Entity. We are like oasis in a desert. Hm? All these are oasises in the desert, they are life*-giving and not slaughtering institutions like so many educational institutions that we find . . . sā vidyā tan-matir yayā (SB 4.29.49) However this sort of training comes, that go towards centre, towards reality, towards beauty, towards harmony, towards solution of life, towards . . . towards nectar giving life, these institutions . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . are only helpful and this is necessary. One Madana*-Mohana Mahavir became a leader a famous leader in the past history, that is recent history of India. He came to visit our Guru Mahārāja and after listening to his words he told that every village should have one centre of your divine grace. But our Guru Mahārāja answered in return it in turn, that I want to make everybody a temple of the Lord. Every . . . every human being, every human body I want to make a temple there in. Not only places, so that was his idea, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) so with this idea he started his mission, Gauḍīya Maṭha, Gauḍīya Mission. And we see that Swami Mahārāja by his grace he is able to spread, to take it all around India and throughout the world, in different the world continents. We are very happy to see new faces, around us eh, for the preaching purpose and spreading the news of Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Śrīla Mahāprabhu, the mission of Śrī Kṛṣṇa and his love. There are elevationists, there are renunciationists but we are servitors ye 'ham yusam abi manaso surayat sadano , true to the heaven and the hearth . . . (indistinct) . . . true to the kindred point of heaven and hearth, cloister and the hearth . . . Prabhupāda: Cloister and hearth . . . (indistinct) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Now . . . (indistinct) . . . eh? But hearth has been made the cloister, the gopī bhajana is to make hearth the cloister, not that the cloister have a separate place. The hearth will be cloister and Kṛṣṇa conception of Godhead is only can make possible the hearth to be the cloister. The wholesale will be converted, every nook and corner nothing should be left out, no faculty should be left out for any other purpose but to devote all respects to the Supreme Entity. *To be faithful to the extreme . . . nothing should be left, this is only possible in Śrī Kṛṣṇa conception of Godhead, akhila*-rasāmṛta-mūrtiḥ (Cc Madhya 8.142), all sorts of ecstasy, happiness. Anything of the type, can be possible in His divine form when we find Śrī Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord and no where else. *One gentleman, a western gentlemen he told, "there are many conceptions of religion in different parts of the world", but we do not find any conception of religion where twenty*-four hours can be devoted in the service of the Supreme Lord. Not only Sunday, not only thrice in the day, not only five times in the day but every hour and second should be devoted in the service of the Supreme Entity and nothing will be left behind. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This sort of service is only possible in, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31) and in the service, aṣṭa*-kālīya-līlā of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Candra himself in madhurya-rasāṁ. Śrī Caitanyadeva came down to this world to, to preach that, to give that nectarine life, to our means, one and all, nimatra sari gari ka , take the name of the Lord and you will find yourself in His heaven one day, one night. *It is easiest, not money is necessary, not physical energy in great quantities is necessary no other helping things only, only try to take the name sincerely. In the right channel it should be acquired otherwise there will be some tampering energy. Hmm? Trade in the name of religion is also going on, here and there and we should save ourselves from those difficulties and by following a bona*-fide path that we can get our achievement. So in the day of the advent of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, consciousness is Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. Kṛṣṇa who came here to arousing us the real our consciousness, of or Kṛṣṇa mean serving Kṛṣṇa in all round, all aspects, all respects. This is, this laudable effort is being done in great quantity by our charming Mahārāja. So we are very happy to . . . getting the chance of attending this function . . . and just a few words to reserve for Swami Mahārāja. Devotees: Hari Bol! Prabhupāda: You can speak. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Tamāl Kṛṣṇa Goswami. Tamāl Kṛṣṇa: So Śrīpad Śridhara Mahārāja and Śrīla Prabhupāda and all the assembled devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya. Today marks a very grand day for us, because it is now the birth anniversary of Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared nearly 500 years ago just in this Śrīdāmā Māyāpur, and His appearance was prayed for by Śrī Advaita Ācārya. Because the world had become in such a state where people were forgetting the actual path of how to approach God. The path of pure bhakti was being lost and Advaita Ācārya prayed that somehow some merciful incarnation could come who could save the world and restore the path of bhakti once again. In answer to his prayers Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared on this planet and His appearance was called the most merciful of all. There is one prayer: My dear Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most merciful of all incarnations of Godhead. Even You are more kind than Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself because You are delivering what no other incarnation has ever delivered before: pure Kṛṣṇa prema , pure love for Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa spoke in Bhagavad*-gītā to the point that one should surrender everything unto Him sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Surrender everything unto Kṛṣṇa. But in the course of time this process of surrendering surrender how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa that was lost. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's appearance is especially meant to teach us how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *And Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa trying to understand the love that Rādhārāṇī feels for Him. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself in the form of a devotee and He is teaching us how to love Kṛṣṇa. So actually this Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya is following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, of the six Gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana, down to the many great ācāryas and most recently Jagannātha Dāsa Bābājī, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākur, Śrīla Gaurakiśora Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda, and Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and Śrīpād Śrīdhara Mahārāja. This line of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas is giving us the highest teachings of all. Lord Caitanya is teaching pure unalloyed devotion without any tinge of material contamination. *That love which was exhibited by the gopīs 5000 years ago is once again being given by Lord Caitanya. And the process He has given is very simple, Caitanya Mahāprabhu after all came as a practical preacher and He demonstrated personally the method by which one could attain the highest form of the love of God. That simple method specifically meant for Kali*-yuga is by chanting the Lord's name: There is one wonderful mantra which Lord Caitanya used to recite: *Because, in other yugas it might have been possible to perform various opulent sacrifices. It might have been possible to perform the mystic yoga processes. It might have been possible to perform very opulent big temple worship, but in Kali*-yuga we are not so fortunate as in past yugas . The lifespan is very short, the intelligence is very meager, the memory is almost nil. So what is that process which can still pick us up to the highest understanding of love of God. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu simply in the process of chanting the holy name—Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is non*-different from Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa is absolute and similarly His name, His form, His pastimes, His paraphernalia everything is on the same transcendental platform. So when one chants the name Kṛṣṇa he is immediately brought into contact with Kṛṣṇa. *The name Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa are non*-different and we see the practical proof of the efficacy of chanting this holy name although all of us who are gathered here, who have come from foreign countries. We were not born in the family of Brahmins , we were not even born in the families of Vaiṣṇavas. Still although we were born in the lowest class of people. Practically caṇḍālas still by chanting this name of Kṛṣṇa we have been elevated to the platform of Vaiṣṇavas. This is said: One can be born in a family of a vipra or a learned Brahmin . One can be born in a family, one can be born in a lower class family, or śūdra . One may be of the renounced order of life if he does not know the science of Kṛṣṇa he cannot be considered guru . But one who has mastered the science of Kṛṣṇa he is considered guru . So we can only give so much thanks to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to all the most merciful ācāryas and especially to our most beloved spiritual master, because they have all given us this chance to know the highest truth of all Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So on this day when we are all gathered together it marks the opening ceremony of our first temple here in Māyāpur. Our only purpose we the disciples of Śrīla Prabhupāda is to fulfill his desire and as he is expressing his desire is only to fulfill the mission of his guru mahārāja Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī wished that there should be a spiritual city Śrīdhāma Māyāpur where all the world could see an ideal spiritual community existing. Practically now we the disciples of Swami Bhaktivedanta Prabhupāda wish to make this a fact. This first building which will serve as a residential building and as school and classroom we hope to be just one of a very big spiritual city which can be constructed. In this way, by the grace of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura who wished that Europeans and Americans and westerners from all over the world could take part in chanting along with the people of India. We wish to make the fact that Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the most merciful incarnation of Godhead revealed to the whole world. So, I would like to pay on behalf of all my godbrothers our sincere and humble thanks to Śrīpād Śrīdhara Mahārāja for gracing us today. We are so much grateful that you have come to visit our guru mahārāja and to help us to open this temple which we hope will be pleasing to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Haribol! . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct Bengali). Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura śara śāstrāṇām. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura deep in the affectionate heart conceived that why not see Caitanyadeva's prema*-dharma. He is capturing the world it is so self-evident it is the only constructing . . . constructive religion to the furthest extreme and why not this is appreciated? This God must be appreciated, He has not only told that east-west, far west, all riddled with common venour of Śrī Caitanyadeva, but also He very strongly told that in future no other religion will exist than the religion of Śrī Caitanyadeva. Namo saṅkīrtan , this also He has made, for days. And for Prabhupāda's his higher heart was trying utmost to spread this idea of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and this grace of Śrī Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Every nook and corner of the world . . . why not men? This would accept such a natural. And so healthy . . . and so simple religion. It is . . . it cannot be denied, that we are so many particles, we are conditioned beings, why not we seek some absolute centre for our, eh help? *Śaraṇāgati , this is self*-evident, danya ātma-nivedanam , when there is danya , when there is real sincere feeling of worship. The next thing cannot but come to take shelter under some greater, greater power. And that relation must be of love and affection. Love . . . and the beauty of love is controlling the central thing, not power. Power cannot control. Cannot be the controller in the extreme centre but love should be in a sincere heart, this must be reflected. So the affectionate and deep thinking heart of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Prabhupāda. Desire and that desire means Mahāprabhu's desire and Kṛṣṇa's desire and that is being lauded in Swami Mahārāja and so many, and so many of efficient men have joined, present boys have joined, both ladies and gentlemen have joined this mission to work out . . . to see our success. This is great and we credit . . . Devotees: Hare Krishna (applause) Prabhupāda: . . . only sixteen years, and His mother's age was about seventy years. He was the youngest son of His family. Still, for the deliverance of the fallen souls of the world, He took sannyāsa . So this sannyāsa order is accepted according to the predecessors . . . (aside) Who is talking? *In Vaiṣṇava*-sampradāya there are tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa . The Māyāvādī, Śaṅkara-sampradāya, they are ekadaṇḍi . Our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa, is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam . Many great preachers and authorities, they took sannyāsa, tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa. Tridaṇḍi means kāya, mana and vākya : body, mind and words. In this rod there are four rods. Three: kāya, mana and vākya; and one, the person. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's desire was that Indians should take up the responsibility for preaching the cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. As I was explaining last night: *The Indians, they are meant for giving something to the world. But unfortunately they have become beggars, simply asking something from the world. We have got such a great culture, Vedic culture, that we can give tremendous benefit to the whole world. But we have given up. There are so many jagad*-gurus , but perhaps they have not seen even what is jagad . But still they are passing on as jagad guru , but their limited action is within the well—three yards, that is all. *Kūpa*-maṇḍūka. Kūpa-maṇḍūka does not know what is Atlantic Ocean. Frog. If frog living within the well, if he is informed, "There is Atlantic Ocean, sir, which is called jagat ."This is not jagat . You have become jagad-guru within the well. You become jagad-guru . Go to the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean; *preach the Vedic culture—then you claim to become jagad*-guru . Otherwise don't falsely claim within the limit of your well. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. So we have to select persons who can preach the Vedic culture all over the world, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means properly training. Now this boy, Mahāṁsa Swami, is known from today as Mahāṁsa Swami. He was brahmacāri . He is coming from Parsee community of Bombay. Similarly, we are selecting from all communities and training them how to become preacher of the Vedic culture. We require hundreds and thousands of preachers. Although we have got centers all over the world, but that is not sufficient. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted in every village and every town all over of the world: He wanted that pṛthivīte , on the surface of the globe, as many towns and cities and villages are there, everywhere this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. *So we have got a tremendous task. And the responsibility is more or less on the Indians, as I have already explained, bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , those who are actually human being born in this holy land of Bhārata-varṣa, they should learn this Vedic culture thoroughly and preach all over the world, so that they may be benefited. Para-upakāra. For want of this Vedic culture the whole world is in darkness. Tamo mukundam aṅghri niṣevayaiva. Tamo means this "darkness." So instead of competing them in other fields—how one can drink wine and one can eat fish and flesh—we are making competition in that way. There is no question of competing in this line. Just give them knowledge, so that they may be saved. This human form of life is not meant for becoming animals. So my request again, that those who are actually proud of becoming an Indian, they should come join, and preach this cult all over the world. Thank you very much. Audience: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation Temple Inauguration -- March 17, 1973, Mayapur *(Srila Prabhupada first asked Śrīdhara Mahārāja to give a talk during the inauguration of the ISKCON Candrodaya Mandira in Māyāpur 1973, on Gaura*-pūrṇimā). Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . (indistinct) . . . conceived the inner most . . . (indistinct) . . . this is wonderful . . . (indistinct) . . . I am rather . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not a chance confident eh? Not a matter of the minute . . . this sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . is being conferred on me . . . (indistinct) . . . this is a permanent settlement . . . (indistinct) . . . conceived in this world . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . we are very eager to get some happiness, that even a point is very much dear to us—even a speck of happiness of the Infinite. Our Professor Sanyal, he told when he was a boy in . . . he was a man of Faridpur, and there the Ganges water is very dear. So from his childhood he was habituated to see Ganges water by drop. Drop, a drop of Ganges water, it touched someone on the head, he is seeing like this. The conception of Ganges water, it appeared in that way. But his father was serving in Chandpur, on the verge of Ganges. Once, following his father, he came he is coming this side, and passing through the Ganges water. Then he told him, "What is this?" His father told, "This is Ganges—River Ganges." "So much water! The boat is passing through Ganges water? And in an ordinary place, the Ganges water, it can never be found, can hardly be found in our country. And so much Ganges water is there that the boat is passing through." So, so much happiness. Prabhupāda: Ānandāmbudhi . . . *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanaṁ ( CC Antya 20.12). Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ. All blissfulness, all love, all divinity are so much found there, and there is everything required. All dancing— gānaṁ, nāṭyaṁ —and all amṛtam , all drink is for pleasure. *Prabhupāda: Kathā gānaṁ nāṭyaṁ (Brahma*-saṁhitā 5.56) . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kathā gānaṁ —all the words are sweet because they're subject matter is sweetness personified, Kṛṣṇa. Kathā gānaṁ pleasing everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . gānaṁ, nāṭyaṁ . And the very environment—the trees, cows, plants, everything—all fulfill our purpose. *"Oh, you are kṛṣṇa*-bhakta ? Everything for you is there." "Everything for you," offering them. "Everything. We are all your friends. You can take anything you like. We are ready for your satisfaction." Opulence—opulence being offered from all sides. That is the immediate representation throughout, for this fallen area, area idea, this idea where we the fallen souls are living. . . (indistinct) . . . That has been extended through the scriptures and the sādhu . The intimation . . . (indistinct) . . . sādhus are agents coming down from that land to here to recruit us, to take us to that. You are thus so purely representing that which you like happiness. You want happiness. "Are you seeking happiness, ecstasy? Oh, come with me. The opulence is there, khani —the mine is there—you come." How much as you can fit, you can take. How much you can contain. Your, your . . . Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song —"I have brought that good news . . ." I forget that song. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes— śrī*-vaikuṇṭha-purīāche nihsreya āśā gaṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: Kalyāṇa*-kalpataru . *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kalyāṇa*-kalpataru. Nihsreya āśā . . . Ki ache? (What is that?) Govinda Maharaja: Taniya anite brksa e . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kalpa brksha aganan. Tar ekta brksha ami ekhane karilam, kalpataru ene dilam. (Uncountable desire trees. From there I brought a tree here. Brought a desire tree.) Tarpore ki? Guru prasadete take abar . . . iye kore . . . sanskar kore tomader kache dicchi. (What after that? After purifying by Guru prasada , I am giving it to you.) *(indistinct) . . ." Kalyāṇa-kalpataru. "Many such trees and creepers are there, and only one-by*-one like to come down here for Your purpose." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa! The name is the highest medium, Mahāprabhu recommends. And it is open to all. Open to all! No much question of eligibility in taking the name. From whatever corner quarter you may come, only a sincere will is necessary: "Yes, I want!" A sincere will. "Yes, I want this." Prabhupāda: Serious . . . (indistinct) . . . necessary. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: No other qualification is necessary, only a sincere will. Only, "Yes, I want this!" Everything is there. And yes, "Come forward. I shall give you." But the will must be sincere. Śraddhā. Śraddhā , faith. Prabhupāda: Receptive, the first is faith. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Then he is here, sincere. He is not far away. Only the egoism is the wall between the two. And the egoism ignorance of karma and jñāna removed, and we are with the Lord. We are with the Lord! Tad dūre tad vantike (ISO 5). Prabhupāda: Far away. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Far for them, and near for the others—for the śraddhā*-loka . So near that we cannot conceive of that nearness. Even for that, myself is not so near to myself. He is so near to us, but we cannot conceive that. I cannot see me as much as He can see me. I cannot love me as much as He loves me. And His men love me He means love. He means love. I cannot love Him so much. I cannot uncover that relationship with the Lord. But with the divine name, the Divine Master can become crucial to the divine act of finding our destination. What is the . . . (indistinct) . . . only . . . (indistinct) . . . have sanctioned, freedom of the material sensation is there, of this material body. Prabhupāda: When the light is off, the current is off. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, our Swami Mahārāja has done a miracle! (laughingly) He has done a miracle! Prabhupāda: (laughter) . . . (indistinct) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What Bhaktivinoda conceived and Prabhupāda tried to, according to his conception, to translate into action in his last days. Anyhow, we find that through Swami Mahārāja these revelations have been fulfilled. We are happy. We are glad. We are proud of Swami Mahārāja, with love to all. Our Guru Mahārāja told that when one person comes to take dīkṣā and to stay in the Maṭha, then he said we may say that after wandering a long time in a foreign land he is again coming back to his home, homeward. Home means homeward, back to God, back to home, back to Godhead. Back to Godhead means back to home, sweet, sweet home. Our home is there and life and life is there, and nowhere else. So we may be quite free there; no apprehension of any misgivings or misunderstand misconduct. With such boldness and clear faith we can go on, onward and onward. What are we leaving on the back—that is all mortal things, transient. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Jaya oṁ viṣṇupāda paramahaṁsa parivrājakācārya Śrī Śrīmad Bhakti*-rakṣaka Śrīdhara Mahārāja ki jaya! Devotees: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: So we are thinking we are very much fortunate to hear His Divine Grace Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Paramahaṁsa Parivrājakācārya Bhakti*-rakṣaka Śrīdhara Mahārāja. He is, by age and experience, in both ways he is senior to me. I am also I was fortunate to have his association since a very long time, perhaps since 1930 or something like that. At that time, he did not accept sannyāsa . . . he just left home, vānaprastha . In his white dress he went to Allahabad. (aside) Mahārāja, I think you remember this incident, when you went to Allahabad? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, I do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you. (chuckles) Yes. At that time . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . we took prasādam on the roof. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Thank you. So on that auspicious occasion we are connected. Before that, in 1920, er, '22, when I was manager in Dr. Bose's Laboratory, young man, and I was Nationalist, Congress Party. I was a devotee of Mahatma Gandhi and C. R. Dāsa. At that time . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: When I was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That was the beginning of our . . . Prabhupāda: No, I was in connection with Congress 1917, yes, '17, when Annie Besant became the Congress president. Then I became serious in 1920, and I gave up my education. So one of my friends—that friend is also now . . . perhaps you know, Mahārāja, that Naren Mullik? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was my intimate friend. So in their house old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich men. So he informed me that, "One nice sannyāsī came to our house, and he has invited . . . in Ultadanga there is the Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic: "Why should I go? I know all the sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me: "Oh, why not? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in the Ultadanga building. At that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof—there was a small house and room—and we were welcomed, because this Naren Mullik was very rich man, and he had contributed some money. So we went to see Prabhupāda and to offer our obeisances. So immediately he said that, "You are all educated young men. Why don't you preach Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message throughout the whole world?" *So I replied to him that, "We are dependent nation. Who will hear our message? We can talk all these things after we get independence." Because I was politically*-minded at that time. Yes. So he refuted my argument. Certainly I was defeated. And I took his words very seriously, I appreciated. Then we were offered some prasādam , we came down, and my friend Naren Mullik asked me, "How did you like this sādhu ?" And, "Yes, here is a sādhu in whose hands Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message is there, and it will be done. I think he was very nice." That was my appreciation. Then 1923 I resigned my post as manager in Bose's Laboratory, and I accepted the agency for whole U.P., beginning from Mughalsarai up to Delhi, and I made my head office in Allahabad. So I was always thinking, "Oh, yes. I met a very nice sādhu ." From the very beginning that was my impression that, "I have met a real sādhu ." So actually the words lava mātra sādhu saṅge sarva siddhi haya (CC Madhya 22.54) was actually, I perceived that in a moment. I was impressed so much with Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura that it was . . . it continued. Then in 1928, when there was Kumbha- melā . . . Mahārāja, when did you join Gauḍīya Maṭha? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: '27 . . . Prabhupāda: '27. That means . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I was twenty when I met Prabhupāda in August 1926. That was my first meeting, and I joined the mission in May 1927. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. In 1928 there was a Kumbha- melā , I think. And during that Kumbha*-melā, Tīrtha Mahārāja with a party came to my shop, Prayāg Pharmacy, all of a sudden, and I thought, "Oh, these are the people I saw, Gauḍīya Maṭha. Yes." (laughter) So I was so glad. So Tīrtha Mahārāja asked me that "We are come new here. We are going to establish a temple in Allahabad. We have heard your name, so we have come to you. Please help us." "Yes, I will help you." So in this way I contributed, my attending physician contributed, and some other friends. In this way we became friends, and Tīrtha Mahārāja, old Tīrtha Mahārāja, had first meeting in my house at Allahabad, with I think, the Sarvesva brahmacārī and Dhīra Kṛṣṇa brahmacārī . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yāyāvara Mahārāja and . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So my father was Vaiṣṇava, but when I invited these Gauḍīya Maṭha sādhus , my father thought that I have invited some sādhus of the Ramakrishna Mission. (laughter) So he was not very interested. When Tīrtha Mahārāja is speaking, I call my—my father was at that time invalid—I called him that "Please come down. There is a meeting of the Gauḍīya Maṭha sādhus ." So he could not resist my request. He came down, but he did not think that some devotees have come. He thought, "These Ramakrishna Mission rascals have come." (laughter) So he was not very happy. But I told; he was sitting. He . . . so the meeting, he just criticized. Then when he heard the speech of our old Tīrtha Mahārāja, our old Godbrother, he understood: "Oh, they are Vaiṣṇavas." Then immediately after the meeting, he fell down on his feet: "I misunderstood you, sir, that you are the Ramakrishna Mission sādhu . I am so glad to meet you." *So that is the beginning of my intimate relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha. And they are coming, and whenever somebody would come, I would invite them to lecture in my house. In that way, Śrīdhara Mahārāja, at that time Ravendra*-sundara Bhaṭṭācārya, he was also invited at my house, and before . . . no, I think I invited Bhāratī Mahārāja, and you were with Bhāratī Mahārāja. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way my connection became developed with Gauḍīya Maṭha. Then gradually the process began, hariṣye tad*-dhanaṁśanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8). (chuckles) I wanted to become very big businessman, and there was good opportunity. I was very nicely associated with the chemical industry of India, Dr. Bose's laboratory, Bengal Chemical, V. K. Farr, and all of them, they liked my business organization. Then I started big laboratory in Lucknow. So that was golden days. But gradually everything becomes dead, and at last my Allahabad business was lost. It was not lost on account of some, my debts—I had to hand it over to Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose because I was his agent. So I had some debts, so I tell the, "All right, you take this business." In this way, that Prayāg Pharmacy was lost. So I was not going to . . . I was sitting at home. But this Yāyāvara Mahārāja, at that time Sarvesva brahmacārī and Atulānanda brahmacārī, they used to come to take their subscription, and they were requesting that "Why don't you come to our maṭha ? Why don't you come to our maṭha ? You are now free." So I used to visit their temple. That was not far away from my house. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In Mahratta. Prabhupāda: Mahratta. Yes. Then the intimate relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha grew. In this way, I think in 1933, yes, the Sir Malcolm Hailey came to lay down the foundation stone of Allahabad Maṭha. Mahārāja, I think you remember. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, we were coming from Vṛndāvana parikramā . Prabhupāda: Yes, parikramā . And the parikramā , that is also another incident that . . . I, I was not initiated at that time, but I had very good admiration for these Gauḍīya Maṭha people, and before, before 1933 I met Śrīdhara Mahārāja and other devotees, old Tīrtha Mahārāja. So they were very kind to me. So the parikramā , I thought, "What these people are doing on this parikramā ? Let me go." So I met them in Kosi. Perhaps Mahārāja, you may remember, and all people were going to see some Śeṣaśāyī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Including Nemi Maharaja. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time Vinode Bhai, later on Keśava Mahārāja, he informed that "Prabhupāda is going to Mathurā tomorrow morning, and he will speak hari*-kathā this evening. Anyone who wants to remain may remain, or otherwise they may prepare to go to see Śeṣaśāyī." So at that time, I think, only ten or twelve men remained. Out of them, Śrīdhara Mahārāja was one of them, and I thought it wise: "What shall I see, this Śeṣaśāyī? Let me hear. Prabhupāda will speak; let me hear." So Prabhupāda marked that "This boy . . ." *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It was better to listen to him than to see the eye*-experience. Prabhupāda: He, because he's a Vaikuṇṭha person who could understand that "This boy is eager to hear." So he very much appreciated. So when we came back to Allahabad, so Ganeśa Babu, he introduced me, that "Here is a nice devotee." So Prabhupāda immediately replied, "Yes, I have marked him. He does not go away. He hears." These very words he said: "Yes, I will accept him as disciple." Then I was initiated. In this way our relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha developed, and gradually, as it developed, the other side diminished. (laughter) Then—there are long history; it will take time—but I had the opportunity of associating with His Holiness. For several years I had the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa and Prabhupāda liked it to prepare me. Śrīdhara Mahārāja lived as a . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . as a sannyāsī . Prabhupāda: (laughs) . . . in my house, some may say, for few years, so naturally we had very intimate talks, and he was my good adviser. I took his advice, his instruction, very seriously, because from the very beginning I know he's a pure Vaiṣṇava and devotee, and I wanted to associate with him, and try to help him also in so many ways. He also tried to help me. So our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gauḍīya Maṭha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Śrīdhara Mahārāja head. And I wanted to mix . . . at that time Gosvāmī Mahārāja, one of my friend's house at Sealdah . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja, you may remember those things. I wanted to organize in so many ways, but somehow or other . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I had one house in Station Road . . . Prabhupāda: Yes Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . belonging to Naren Mullik. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It was a very small place. Prabhupāda: He wanted to rent us only for ninety rupees. I told him, "You just give me the concession." He, at that time, he was getting 125, but because I am his friend, "All right, I'll give you, ninety rupees." So that could not happen somehow or other. So I was trying from the very beginning after the disappearance of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: At that time you published Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes, in 1944. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: 1944. Prabhupāda: I think that you were at that time at my house. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: So somehow or other, this intention for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu increased, and other side decreased. Viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). But I was not disinclined, but Kṛṣṇa forced me, that "You must give up." (chuckles) And these thing is known better to Śrīdhara Mahārāja, how it decreased, decreased, decreased, then almost it become nil. And then I left home in 1950. Whatever was there, "All right, you do whatever you like." In 1954, four years, I remained as vānaprastha —why four years, from 1950 to 1959. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In the meantime, there was Bombay. Bombay life. Prabhupāda: Bombay life, yes. Bombay life—that was during my householder life. I opened an office in Bombay for my business and . . . but the Gauḍīya Maṭha was established by us. I am one of them. Śrīdhara Mahārāja also. And we made two parties for begging, collecting alms. Śrīdhara Mahārāja, myself and Gosvāmī Mahārāja. At that time he was Atula, Atulācandra Gosvāmī. So I took them to some of my friends, chemist friends, doctors friends. So I collected about five hundred rupees through this. Śrīdhara Mahārāja would speak, I introduced, and Gosvāmī . . . at that time Gosvāmī Mahārāja would canvass. (laughter) In this way three combined together, in one day or two days we . . . at that time five hundred rupees was (laughing) big amount. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: A big sum. *Prabhupāda: Big sum, yes. So Gosvāmī Mahārāja very much appreciated, and he began to speak highly about me that, "Abhay Babu is so expert, he has got so many friends, he has collected so much . . . so why does he . . . he should not be . . . the Maṭha in*-charge." In this way. "Why should he not live with us? Why he's living separately?" In this way. So Prabhupāda, Mahārāja, Śrīdhara (laughing) may remember it, he said: "It is better to live separately from you people, and he will do the necessity in due course of time." So I could not understand what Śrīla Prabhupāda meant by that. So his inclination, blessings, were always upon me, although I was unfit. But he was so kind. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . (indistinct) . . . was collecting sufficient funds to come back . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, he was afraid. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He asked you. *Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda gave me some money, that he is afraid, "You keep this money. When they need, you can . . ." So, by guru*-vaiṣṇava , and whatever position I have got, it is by guru's mercy and the Vaiṣṇavas' blessings; otherwise I am insignificant. (voice trembles) So I wish that Śrīdhara Mahārāja may bestow his blessings as he was doing always, and my Guru Mahārāja may help me. I can give some service, so long I live. That's all. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Remember . . . some dissertation of Bhāgavatam at Rādhā*-Dāmodara on Jīva Gosvāmīs (appearance) day. Prabhupāda: Yes, Jīva Gosvāmī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That gave you that last impression for possibility for foreign pracāra . Prabhupāda: Yes. I thought that Guru Mahārāja wanted, and these Gauḍīya Math people did not do anything, so let me try in this old age. The inspiration came, and I went. By his grace it has become little successful, that's all. I have no credit. *It is all the blessings of guru and Vaiṣṇava. That's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening, because I am not at all bona fide position. But it is truly chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava*-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Are you going . . . (indistinct) . . . kindly talk with your . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That will be . . . (indistinct) . . . carried to us, the land of gold and Golden Avatāra. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am always speak to this, my American disciples, that "You are so much, I mean to say, taken care of by God. This is . . . your position is very good. Now you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you become a perfect nation." That I preach always. "By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you have got everything. All material opulence. *Now make it plus Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be very nice." Lakṣmī*-Nārāyaṇa. So these boys are trying, very sincerely and seriously, and I hope, even I do not live many more years, they will carry out this order. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: The flow coming down from Him. We are in that current, so we are also counted within that current. Prabhupāda: And our Gauranga Mahārāja . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Prabhupāda said, Bhaktivinoda dhara kakhana ruddha hoibe na. (The tradition of Bhaktivinoda will never be stopped.) Prabhupāda: Ta ki hote pare! (Is this possible?) This is not possible. This is not possible. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) . . . we are also counted within that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . camp. At other . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Other times being washed away: keno māyār bośe, jāccho bhese (Gītāvalī, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Bol), and we are being washed, washed away, by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. (laughter) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) . . . participate. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Everything is there. Everything is there. (break) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This . . . this āśrama is being opened today. What is it's position? In Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we find: *Vana*-vāsa —that plain living, with minimum materials for our . . . to help our life, that is vana-vāsa , a simple life, plain living-high thinking. Simple life . . . but there also we are master of that, that little thing, that sāttviko vāso . Most conducive to our religious life, no grandeur, opinion, material enjoyment etc. That is sattvica-vāsa-vana-vāsa. *Rajasa*-vāsa is a . . . is a life fired . . . we are engaged in various activities in the upliftment of the society and the world and its civilisation. That is rajasa , where the maximum energy is spent to improve the paraphernalia where we live to make us comfortable. *Tamasa*-vāsa , due to sadanam , without caring for any social life, only . . . only sense pleasure . . . maximum and minimum giving to others in society or any paraphernalia, reckless life, a life in the clubhouse or a hotel or something like that is an irresponsible life, tamasa . Due to sadanam, man-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam and if we live our life in the house of the Lord we may be . . . we may dive ourselves in any amount of grandeur or anything of the type but still it is nirguṇaḥ because we are not master there. We are servant, we are servant, the vana-vāsa to simple with minimum material surround our self to live but still there we are master, we command but here we are mere servant everything to be solved whatever we shall see there all around. *Even a tree, even a creeper even a dust, that is to be solved and not to enjoy, nor to renunciate. That is a form of life, a life of worship, a life of devotion, eh. Not only to the Deity's of the Lord but including all His paraphernalia and to see that they are also serving the Supreme Entity. With this idea to be a serving factor, in all serving environment . . . the Supreme Lord, man*-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam , so we have come, to live here a life a nirguṇaḥ life, guṇa-tīta, guṇa-tīta , that really (coughing in the background) *Crossing all sorts of reality with this material. Directivity with this material world whatever of conception it may be. And to learn that, īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ . (Iso mantra 1) The fundamental truth given in the Upaniṣad, Īśopaniṣad , that: īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ , that in everything there is the presence of the Supreme Entity and also the Supreme Lord with this conception we are to live in such a training house. I was told that in Back to Godhead one gentlemen he wrote that so*-called universities and the colleges and the schools are slaughter houses, hmm? I'm very much pleased with this idea. *Yes they are nothing but slaughter houses and this sort of institution but what our Guru Mahārāja has inaugurated in this world to uplift us and all jīvas , towards the Supreme . . . Supreme worship, the loving service of the Supreme Entity. We are like oasis in a desert. Hm? All these are oasises in the desert, they are life*-giving and not slaughtering institutions like so many educational institutions that we find . . . sā vidyā tan-matir yayā (SB 4.29.49) However this sort of training comes, that go towards centre, towards reality, towards beauty, towards harmony, towards solution of life, towards . . . towards nectar giving life, these institutions . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . are only helpful and this is necessary. One Madana*-Mohana Mahavir became a leader a famous leader in the past history, that is recent history of India. He came to visit our Guru Mahārāja and after listening to his words he told that every village should have one centre of your divine grace. But our Guru Mahārāja answered in return it in turn, that I want to make everybody a temple of the Lord. Every . . . every human being, every human body I want to make a temple there in. Not only places, so that was his idea, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) so with this idea he started his mission, Gauḍīya Maṭha, Gauḍīya Mission. And we see that Swami Mahārāja by his grace he is able to spread, to take it all around India and throughout the world, in different the world continents. We are very happy to see new faces, around us eh, for the preaching purpose and spreading the news of Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Śrīla Mahāprabhu, the mission of Śrī Kṛṣṇa and his love. There are elevationists, there are renunciationists but we are servitors ye 'ham yusam abi manaso surayat sadano , true to the heaven and the hearth . . . (indistinct) . . . true to the kindred point of heaven and hearth, cloister and the hearth . . . Prabhupāda: Cloister and hearth . . . (indistinct) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Now . . . (indistinct) . . . eh? But hearth has been made the cloister, the gopī bhajana is to make hearth the cloister, not that the cloister have a separate place. The hearth will be cloister and Kṛṣṇa conception of Godhead is only can make possible the hearth to be the cloister. The wholesale will be converted, every nook and corner nothing should be left out, no faculty should be left out for any other purpose but to devote all respects to the Supreme Entity. *To be faithful to the extreme . . . nothing should be left, this is only possible in Śrī Kṛṣṇa conception of Godhead, akhila*-rasāmṛta-mūrtiḥ (Cc Madhya 8.142), all sorts of ecstasy, happiness. Anything of the type, can be possible in His divine form when we find Śrī Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord and no where else. *One gentleman, a western gentlemen he told, "there are many conceptions of religion in different parts of the world", but we do not find any conception of religion where twenty*-four hours can be devoted in the service of the Supreme Lord. Not only Sunday, not only thrice in the day, not only five times in the day but every hour and second should be devoted in the service of the Supreme Entity and nothing will be left behind. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This sort of service is only possible in, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31) and in the service, aṣṭa*-kālīya-līlā of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Candra himself in madhurya-rasāṁ. Śrī Caitanyadeva came down to this world to, to preach that, to give that nectarine life, to our means, one and all, nimatra sari gari ka , take the name of the Lord and you will find yourself in His heaven one day, one night. *It is easiest, not money is necessary, not physical energy in great quantities is necessary no other helping things only, only try to take the name sincerely. In the right channel it should be acquired otherwise there will be some tampering energy. Hmm? Trade in the name of religion is also going on, here and there and we should save ourselves from those difficulties and by following a bona*-fide path that we can get our achievement. So in the day of the advent of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, consciousness is Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. Kṛṣṇa who came here to arousing us the real our consciousness, of or Kṛṣṇa mean serving Kṛṣṇa in all round, all aspects, all respects. This is, this laudable effort is being done in great quantity by our charming Mahārāja. So we are very happy to . . . getting the chance of attending this function . . . and just a few words to reserve for Swami Mahārāja. Devotees: Hari Bol! Prabhupāda: You can speak. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Tamāl Kṛṣṇa Goswami. Tamāl Kṛṣṇa: So Śrīpad Śridhara Mahārāja and Śrīla Prabhupāda and all the assembled devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya. Today marks a very grand day for us, because it is now the birth anniversary of Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared nearly 500 years ago just in this Śrīdāmā Māyāpur, and His appearance was prayed for by Śrī Advaita Ācārya. Because the world had become in such a state where people were forgetting the actual path of how to approach God. The path of pure bhakti was being lost and Advaita Ācārya prayed that somehow some merciful incarnation could come who could save the world and restore the path of bhakti once again. In answer to his prayers Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared on this planet and His appearance was called the most merciful of all. There is one prayer: My dear Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most merciful of all incarnations of Godhead. Even You are more kind than Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself because You are delivering what no other incarnation has ever delivered before: pure Kṛṣṇa prema , pure love for Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa spoke in Bhagavad*-gītā to the point that one should surrender everything unto Him sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Surrender everything unto Kṛṣṇa. But in the course of time this process of surrendering surrender how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa that was lost. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's appearance is especially meant to teach us how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *And Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa trying to understand the love that Rādhārāṇī feels for Him. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself in the form of a devotee and He is teaching us how to love Kṛṣṇa. So actually this Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya is following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, of the six Gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana, down to the many great ācāryas and most recently Jagannātha Dāsa Bābājī, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākur, Śrīla Gaurakiśora Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda, and Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and Śrīpād Śrīdhara Mahārāja. This line of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas is giving us the highest teachings of all. Lord Caitanya is teaching pure unalloyed devotion without any tinge of material contamination. *That love which was exhibited by the gopīs 5000 years ago is once again being given by Lord Caitanya. And the process He has given is very simple, Caitanya Mahāprabhu after all came as a practical preacher and He demonstrated personally the method by which one could attain the highest form of the love of God. That simple method specifically meant for Kali*-yuga is by chanting the Lord's name: There is one wonderful mantra which Lord Caitanya used to recite: *Because, in other yugas it might have been possible to perform various opulent sacrifices. It might have been possible to perform the mystic yoga processes. It might have been possible to perform very opulent big temple worship, but in Kali*-yuga we are not so fortunate as in past yugas . The lifespan is very short, the intelligence is very meager, the memory is almost nil. So what is that process which can still pick us up to the highest understanding of love of God. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu simply in the process of chanting the holy name—Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is non*-different from Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa is absolute and similarly His name, His form, His pastimes, His paraphernalia everything is on the same transcendental platform. So when one chants the name Kṛṣṇa he is immediately brought into contact with Kṛṣṇa. *The name Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa are non*-different and we see the practical proof of the efficacy of chanting this holy name although all of us who are gathered here, who have come from foreign countries. We were not born in the family of Brahmins , we were not even born in the families of Vaiṣṇavas. Still although we were born in the lowest class of people. Practically caṇḍālas still by chanting this name of Kṛṣṇa we have been elevated to the platform of Vaiṣṇavas. This is said: One can be born in a family of a vipra or a learned Brahmin . One can be born in a family, one can be born in a lower class family, or śūdra . One may be of the renounced order of life if he does not know the science of Kṛṣṇa he cannot be considered guru . But one who has mastered the science of Kṛṣṇa he is considered guru . So we can only give so much thanks to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to all the most merciful ācāryas and especially to our most beloved spiritual master, because they have all given us this chance to know the highest truth of all Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So on this day when we are all gathered together it marks the opening ceremony of our first temple here in Māyāpur. Our only purpose we the disciples of Śrīla Prabhupāda is to fulfill his desire and as he is expressing his desire is only to fulfill the mission of his guru mahārāja Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī wished that there should be a spiritual city Śrīdhāma Māyāpur where all the world could see an ideal spiritual community existing. Practically now we the disciples of Swami Bhaktivedanta Prabhupāda wish to make this a fact. This first building which will serve as a residential building and as school and classroom we hope to be just one of a very big spiritual city which can be constructed. In this way, by the grace of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura who wished that Europeans and Americans and westerners from all over the world could take part in chanting along with the people of India. We wish to make the fact that Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the most merciful incarnation of Godhead revealed to the whole world. So, I would like to pay on behalf of all my godbrothers our sincere and humble thanks to Śrīpād Śrīdhara Mahārāja for gracing us today. We are so much grateful that you have come to visit our guru mahārāja and to help us to open this temple which we hope will be pleasing to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Haribol! . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct Bengali). Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura śara śāstrāṇām. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura deep in the affectionate heart conceived that why not see Caitanyadeva's prema*-dharma. He is capturing the world it is so self-evident it is the only constructing . . . constructive religion to the furthest extreme and why not this is appreciated? This God must be appreciated, He has not only told that east-west, far west, all riddled with common venour of Śrī Caitanyadeva, but also He very strongly told that in future no other religion will exist than the religion of Śrī Caitanyadeva. Namo saṅkīrtan , this also He has made, for days. And for Prabhupāda's his higher heart was trying utmost to spread this idea of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and this grace of Śrī Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Every nook and corner of the world . . . why not men? This would accept such a natural. And so healthy . . . and so simple religion. It is . . . it cannot be denied, that we are so many particles, we are conditioned beings, why not we seek some absolute centre for our, eh help? *Śaraṇāgati , this is self*-evident, danya ātma-nivedanam , when there is danya , when there is real sincere feeling of worship. The next thing cannot but come to take shelter under some greater, greater power. And that relation must be of love and affection. Love . . . and the beauty of love is controlling the central thing, not power. Power cannot control. Cannot be the controller in the extreme centre but love should be in a sincere heart, this must be reflected. So the affectionate and deep thinking heart of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Prabhupāda. Desire and that desire means Mahāprabhu's desire and Kṛṣṇa's desire and that is being lauded in Swami Mahārāja and so many, and so many of efficient men have joined, present boys have joined, both ladies and gentlemen have joined this mission to work out . . . to see our success. This is great and we credit . . . Devotees: Hare Krishna (applause) Prabhupāda: . . . only sixteen years, and His mother's age was about seventy years. He was the youngest son of His family. Still, for the deliverance of the fallen souls of the world, He took sannyāsa . So this sannyāsa order is accepted according to the predecessors . . . (aside) Who is talking? *In Vaiṣṇava*-sampradāya there are tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa . The Māyāvādī, Śaṅkara-sampradāya, they are ekadaṇḍi . Our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa, is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam . Many great preachers and authorities, they took sannyāsa, tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa. Tridaṇḍi means kāya, mana and vākya : body, mind and words. In this rod there are four rods. Three: kāya, mana and vākya; and one, the person. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's desire was that Indians should take up the responsibility for preaching the cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. As I was explaining last night: *The Indians, they are meant for giving something to the world. But unfortunately they have become beggars, simply asking something from the world. We have got such a great culture, Vedic culture, that we can give tremendous benefit to the whole world. But we have given up. There are so many jagad*-gurus , but perhaps they have not seen even what is jagad . But still they are passing on as jagad guru , but their limited action is within the well—three yards, that is all. *Kūpa*-maṇḍūka. Kūpa-maṇḍūka does not know what is Atlantic Ocean. Frog. If frog living within the well, if he is informed, "There is Atlantic Ocean, sir, which is called jagat ."This is not jagat . You have become jagad-guru within the well. You become jagad-guru . Go to the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean; *preach the Vedic culture—then you claim to become jagad*-guru . Otherwise don't falsely claim within the limit of your well. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. So we have to select persons who can preach the Vedic culture all over the world, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means properly training. Now this boy, Mahāṁsa Swami, is known from today as Mahāṁsa Swami. He was brahmacāri . He is coming from Parsee community of Bombay. Similarly, we are selecting from all communities and training them how to become preacher of the Vedic culture. We require hundreds and thousands of preachers. Although we have got centers all over the world, but that is not sufficient. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted in every village and every town all over of the world: He wanted that pṛthivīte , on the surface of the globe, as many towns and cities and villages are there, everywhere this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. *So we have got a tremendous task. And the responsibility is more or less on the Indians, as I have already explained, bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , those who are actually human being born in this holy land of Bhārata-varṣa, they should learn this Vedic culture thoroughly and preach all over the world, so that they may be benefited. Para-upakāra. For want of this Vedic culture the whole world is in darkness. Tamo mukundam aṅghri niṣevayaiva. Tamo means this "darkness." So instead of competing them in other fields—how one can drink wine and one can eat fish and flesh—we are making competition in that way. There is no question of competing in this line. Just give them knowledge, so that they may be saved. This human form of life is not meant for becoming animals. So my request again, that those who are actually proud of becoming an Indian, they should come join, and preach this cult all over the world. Thank you very much. Audience: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- April 19, 1973, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: There is such proposition that He should exist, He should not exist. Then there must be some authority to give such order. That is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10], "Under My superintendence, nature is working." Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He also says that the species are not created independently. They say it is descended from, one after another. Prabhupāda: So, if there is no question of independence, then how, abruptly, he can begin from a certain species? You must explain wherefrom this species came into existence. Harer nāma harer nāma... Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are so many books on Darwin's theory. Goes... In the library, if one goes there are hundreds of volumes of books on Darwin's theory. Prabhupāda: They have accepted or protested? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mostly they accept and there are some who are also very critical, what they're, what he's saying is really (indistinct) But those are very few. Mostly, most books are supporting. Karandhara: Recently, there was an issue that some people wanted that the theory that God created the earth and the species to be taught in schools along with Darwin's theory. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: But the, it was defeated because the scientists said: "If we make such a statement in our schools, everyone will take us as fools." Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not follow. Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The evolution... Karandhara: A group of, a group of people wanted that in school they should also teach that God created the earth and the people... Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Not just say that it was created by chance, random biology. But scientists objected, said: "We cannot say that God created the earth because then everyone will take us as fools." And they defeated the measure. The scientists said "Everyone knows. The earth is just created by biological chemistry. If we say that God created the earth, everyone will think us as fools." Prabhupāda: The biology, chemistry, why don't you create? The biology and chemistry has advanced so much. Why don't you create? What is their answer? Karandhara: In the future. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Why future? If it is already created, biology and chemistry, and you know the process, why don't you create it by chemistry, biology? Brahmānanda: It's very wet. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a little wet, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So we can... Devotee: It's all wet. Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not wish to come here. There is no facility for walking. Everywhere wet. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ahh. This is wet also. Let's go this side. Prabhupāda: Everywhere wet. There is a little space to walk. Biology, chemistry is the origin of life. So the chemistry, biology's so much advanced. Why they cannot create life? When the crucial point is touched, they say: "We shall do it in future." Why future? If it is already done at present, why future? What is this? Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is... Small ones? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: These are some small earth, mound of earth taken out from the inside to make room for oxygen for the plants to breath. Prabhupāda: No, no. These are stools. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, these are not stools, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's a machine. They go around like this. And that makes a little earth taken out. Prabhupāda: Ahhh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they'll be doing in the future. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Future, that is not science. Trust no future, however pleasant. This is the word. What is this? Everyone will say future. Trust no future, however pleasant. You may think it is very pleasurable. Why future? If you say that the biology, chemistry is the beginning of this life, so you are now so much advanced. Why don't you create? Then what is the meaning of your advancement? You're talking nonsense. Karandhara: They always say they're right on the verge. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: They always say they're right on the verge. Prabhupāda: That is also the future, in a different way. You have to accept that you do not know still what is the truth. You are expecting in future. That, that is the proof that your knowledge is imperfect. Why future? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because their present knowledge cannot... *Prabhupāda: It is, it is something like, giving post*-dated check. I pay you one lakh of rupees, post-dated. Although I have no money,... What is the value of that check? Will anybody accept that check? "Oh, I have received the money." That is foolishness. Why future? You are talking of future, and you are talking of perfectness at present. What is this nonsense? You are claiming that your science is perfect, and, at the same time, when practical example wanted, you say; *"I shall do it." The same example. I am saying I am millions, owner of millions of dollars. And you ask me: "Give me some payment." "Yes, I give you post*-dated check." Will you accept? At present, if you give me five dollar, I see something tangible. And you're talking of big, big word, but you'll pay me in the future. So is it very sanguine proposal? And I am to accept it? So what kind of intelligent man I am also? You cannot produce even a grass by biological chemistry. You cannot do anything. Still you are claiming: "It is produced of chemistry, biology." What is this nonsense? Nobody questions? Karandhara: Even it's produced by chemistry, there's laws... Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: There's laws to those chemical reactions. They never consider who makes the laws? Prabhupāda: Then? What is this? As soon as there is law, it must be considered that somebody made the law. Karandhara: It's just a thief's mentality. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: If a thief comes on something valuable, he does not think who owns this. He simply thinks how he'll steal it. Prabhupāda: That is thief's business. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they are all thieves. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So how we, a sane man can trust a thief? A sane man cannot trust a thief. There are so many things. They could not produce even a grass, even a small plant in the biology, chemistry laboratory, and still they're claiming it is product of biology, chemistry. What is this nonsenses. What kind of scientists there are? Locana: We couldn't even choose when we were born. Prabhupāda: Eh? Locana: We couldn't even choose being born here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Locana: So where is the question of control? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why, in the ultimate analysis, the geologists, mostly when they trace the origin of life, they say everything started from matter. Living matters came out from non*-living matters. Prabhupāda: Where it is coming now? It came in the past and not in the now, and not at present? Wherefrom an ant is coming from this dust. Is there any proof? Even an ant does not come. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact, there are several theories like that, about the origin of life. And they say starting from matter, all the living matters came from nonliving. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why it is not coming now, rascal? I kick on your face with boots. Why it is not coming now? Karandhara: If it happened before, it should happen now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And it is so amazing that people believe it. Prabhupāda: That means fools. Brahmā: The blind leading the blind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. All rascals, mūḍhāḥ. Our simple formula is: Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's a rascal. Never mind what he is. We immediately reject him, a rascal. Our simple formula. And actually they're rascals. They're talking like rascals, childish, that life came from matter. Prove it. That future. What is this? I am very rich man. And as soon as I ask you: "Give me some money." "Oh, yes, I'll give you in future." What is this? Devotee: Bluff. Brahmānanda: Sometimes when we ask someone to become a life member, they say: "Yes, sometime in future." We become very disappointed. Prabhupāda: We shall make vigorous propaganda against all this rascalism. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mūḍhāḥ. Challenge them. Brahmānanda: Saying "In future", that is a bluff. Prabhupāda: Bluff. That is a bluff. When that future will come? That they do not know. That is another bluff. And still, they're proud of advancement of knowledge. Still, they're talking of future. And what is your advancement? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So long as the future is there they have a voice to say... Prabhupāda: Future we cannot trust. Trust no future however pleasant. This is our philosophy. Everyone says that. Trust no future, however pleasant. You may talk that future is very bright, but we don't believe in that. Why future? If you are advanced, immediately... Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's old poetry? Prabhupāda: In the past, you say, in the past the life came out of matter. Why you again say in the future? What is this theory? You have already committed that the life began from matter. That is past, "began." Then why you say now again "future?" Then where is the beginning? Eh? Why this contradiction? If life began from matter, that is past. That is in the past. Then why do you say again future? What is the answer? Is it not contradiction? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. That misses the whole point. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is whole, wholesale nonsense, wholesale nonsense. You are expecting the fact in the future, still you say it began in the past. Just see the contradiction. Devotee: Yes. (Someone hits golf ball.) Golfers: Fore, fore! Prabhupāda: So contradiction means childish. Contradiction is not scientist. Contradiction is childish. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They started from a point where... Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They started from a point where there's no background. There's no... Prabhupāda: No background. That is another thing. And still, they cannot prove it at present. They're expecting to prove it in the future. Karandhara: They say: "It happened in the past, but we'll do it in the future." Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense? Karandhara: But who did it in the past? Prabhupāda: And how, how he knows that it began in the past? If he cannot prove it in the present? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They assume it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They assume it. Prabhupāda: Assume, everyone can assume. That is not science. Assuming, then, everyone can suggest something like. You can suggest something, I can suggest something. What is the proof? We can prove that life begins from life. Just like father begets a child. Father is living and the child is living. That we can prove. But where is your proof that the father is a stone and the son is a child? Where is your proof? We say that life begins from life. The original life is Kṛṣṇa. That we can prove. But you say that life begins from matter. Where is this evidence that a child is born out of stone. Karandhara: There's a miss... They say there's a missing link. Prabhupāda: A missing link? Then I kick on your face. You're missing this kick. Now learn it. Nonsense. Here is the missing point. Just learn it. Write vigorous articles to kick on the face of these rascals. All of you. You have got so much advanced laboratories, advanced knowledge. You do not... even you are defying the authority of God. You have become so great. And you cannot prove that life is coming out of matter. That you are leaving aside for future. And I have to believe such a rascal? Do you think it is nice? You are talking all nonsense, and I have to believe you? Karandhara: They say they have almost proof that some acids, they make some acids and it's almost like an animal. Just about, not quite, but almost. Prabhupāda: Asses, asses? Karandhara: Amino acids. Brahmānanda: Asses. Karandhara: They say if they isolate certain amino acids, it's almost like... Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're almost like components of protein. Karandhara: They're almost like little animals, little cells. Not quite but almost. So they say that because that matter is almost like a little animal, therefore there must be just one little missing link, one chemical you can add, they're trying to isolate it. Prabhupāda: That missing link is kicking you. That missing... Here, you say, you take this missing link. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying to make babies in a test tube. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a few years. Prabhupāda: What is that test tube? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the laboratory, the chemical laboratory, biological laboratory, so they'll take the combinations of the male and the female.... Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? It is taken from the living entities. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? Test tube is a place for combination. As it is combined in the womb. So that is not advancement. Karandhara: The womb's already doing it very nicely. Prabhupāda: Nicely. What is your credit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to, they want to be very proud that they'll be able to do it outside the womb. Prabhupāda: But that's all right. At least you are not able to do it now. But where is the credit because it is already being done. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the nature's test tube. Brahmānanda: They're just doing it in a more difficult and expensive way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When somebody does like that, people will give him Nobel prize. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhāgavata: śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. A big animal is being praised by dogs, and hogs, camel, monkeys. So they're getting Nobel Prize from dogs, hogs, camels. They're not getting Nobel Prize from any sane man. That is stated. Śva-viḍ. Śva means dog. Viḍ-varāha means the stool-eater, hog. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra. Uṣṭra means camel. And kharaḥ means ass. So they're being praised by these classes of animal. They're not human being. If anyone gives Nobel Prize to such rascals, that means the man, the committee, who is giving the Nobel Prize to him, they are composition of these animals, dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not human being. According to Bhāgavata. That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I think I have explained it. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are not... We don't accept them as human beings. We accept them as animals. So one animal is being praised by other animals. That's all. And that is no credit. That means if, at the present, if anyone gets Nobel Prize, that means he's fool number one. That is the... Because the other animals are praising. No human being. Devotee: Yes. yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the ultimate aim for the scientists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Scientists means they are rascals. They're talking nonsense. And because they are putting the matter in some jugglery of words, other fools are being misled. Brahmānanda: That Nobel Prize, the Nobel, he's the one who discovered the dynamite which has caused so much destruction in the world. But he made a big fortune. So all that money, he's now pushing for... Prabhupāda: Another misfortune. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: He created some misfortune, and he spent the money for creating further, more misfortunes. What can he do more? Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (Pause) Brahmānanda: It says in the *Gītā* that the demoniac, they do acts, horrible acts which are meant to destroy the world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Ugra*-karma. Kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ. It is meant for destruction and inauspicity of the world. This is their business. Locana: If scientists really believed that they were just made out of matter, then there wouldn't be any question of one scientist's thinking he's a person better than another person cause there wouldn't be any individuality, if they believed everything was just atoms and matter. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Now here is a matter. Why leaves and twigs are not coming. Formerly it was coming. What is the difference? Locana: The spirit soul. Prabhupāda: The same, it has grown green, and vegetation. Now the same wood is there. Why it is not coming now? Let scientists explain this. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That simply shows how ignorant the understanding is. Prabhupāda: : Therefore we say rascals, simply. Karandhara: Well they would say the chemical composition has been changed. Prabhupāda: All right, give the chemicals. You are now advanced in knowing the chemicals. Inject the chemicals. Brahmānanda: : Knowledge means that you have to be able to demonstrate it. Prabhupāda: : Yes. That... Otherwise what... Brahmānanda: : Otherwise, its' just... Prabhupāda: Ācaraṇa. It is called ācaraṇa. Āpani ācari bhakti karila pracāra. Brahmānanda: They should be able to demonstrate it in a laboratory. Prabhupāda: Yes. Science says that: "observation and experiment." That is science. You observe how things are going on. And you experiment. Then it is perfect. But you cannot make experiment, you simply observe, that, a child also can also observe, and he can speak something nonsense. Just like in our childhood, we were observing the gramophone box, that within the box there is some man who's singing. And electric fan. I was thinking: There must be some ghost. Yes. These kind of suggestion... Svarūpa Dāmodara: : The... In the first time when learn about the difference between the living and the nonliving, this is one of the very popular questions when we start biology: What is the difference between living and the nonliving? So they answer there are several points to differentiate between the two. And they say the living can move and the nonliving cannot grow or cannot move. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the living can reproduce like themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The nonliving is not. Prabhupāda: No. No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: : But they never talk about the soul, the nature of the soul, the consciousness existing within the living. *Prabhupāda: : No, because there is consciousness, therefore the living being can create. Because I am conscious, I am thinking of marrying, begetting children. Because I am conscious. And because there is no consciousness, therefore this wood cannot think that he'll beget. The original consciousness, in the Vedas, it is said: eko bahu syām. God says: "I'll become many," so because there is consciousness, therefore He's saying that: "I shall become many." Without consciousness, there is no question of by*-products. (Pause) Now they are supplying water to these green trees. Why they do not supply to that wood, and get it green? Svarūpa Dāmodara: : 'Cause from experience they know that it is not going to grow. Prabhupāda: That means nonsense, that there is something else. Because the same tree, now it is growing, watering, but when it will be dead, you pour water... The medicine is the same. Why it is not doing now, and why it was doing formerly? Then what is the thing that is lacking in it? Brahmānanda: : Similarly, if there's a dead body and they just add some chemicals, that doesn't necessarily mean it will come alive again. Prabhupāda: : No. No. Chemicals are already there. If you say that the chemical is the cause of life, that chemicals are there. Because other lifes are coming. How do you say the chemical is wanting. Brahmānanda: Don't they say that when death means chemicals are gone... Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Brahmānanda: ...breakdown? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The life, the life energy, the heart... Prabhupāda: : No, no. Life energy, what is the cause of that life energy? Chemicals. Brahmānanda: : Chemicals remain. Prabhupāda: : Yes. So that chemical is already there. Life energy is there. Because from the body, thousands of microbes are coming out. They're living entities. So you cannot say that the life energy is lacking there. No, it is already there. How can you say that life energy not there? Otherwise, how other life is coming. Not only one, thousands. So how do you say the life energy's lacking there? What do you think, Karandhara Prabhu? Karandhara: : Yes. Prabhupāda: : The life energy's already there. Karandhara: : Yes. Prabhupāda: You cannot say the life energy's not there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: : But the life energy for the dead body... *Prabhupāda: : For the dead body means, that is a particular dead body. It is not the life energy. That is individuality. The life*-energy-producing chemicals are already there. But that particular individual living entity has left. Just like I live in a room. So I leave this room. You cannot find me. But there are many other living entities there. There are ants, there are spider, there are so many. So that does not mean because I have left that room, it is lacking the accommodations. The accommodation is there. Other living entities are living there. I have left. I am individual. I have left. Therefore the individual soul is proved. Karandhara: They do not know how that life energy comes or goes. Prabhupāda: No. Life energy comes or... There is no question of coming and going. Karandhara: Well coming into a body and leaving a body. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that is individual. That individual person is missing. He has left it. *Karandhara: Generally they conclude that it's an electro*-chemical energy in the heart and that... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. That individual person has left. Other things are intact. Otherwise, how the living entities are coming out? Karandhara: They don't think that if it's simply a chemical, why cannot they just get a chemical that's a person. *Prabhupāda: No. We refute that. The chemicals are already there. Otherwise how living entities are coming out? We don't say that chemical is missing. Because the same theory: conservation of energy. The chemicals, the energy*-producing, that is already there. It may be in different form, but the life-producing-energy is there. Otherwise how the other living entities are coming out? Karandhara: In a living, in a living entity in the living body, there are so many things, personality... Prabhupāda: They have got personality, all the living entities coming out, the microbes. They have got their personality. If they're moving in this way, you stop. They'll move in this way. Karandhara: But in the dead body, there's no personality. Prabhupāda: That means that individual person has left. That is the proof, that is the proof of individual soul. Just like there are so many plants of the same species. One is dead. That individual plant is dead, but other species are living. It is not extinct. How can you say the species is extinct? How you can say? Darwin's forefather might be extinct. But the monkeys are there. What is the time? *Brahmānanda: Six*-thirty. *Karandhara: Six thirty*-five. Prabhupāda: Hmm. We can walk little more. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the same living body, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are innumerable small living entities. Like the cells themselves. They are living also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when you take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, the living entities which are within our body, they're also taking prasādam? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are very benevolent. You take Kṛṣṇa prasādam for others. Brahmānanda: Welfare work. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do without taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Because you have got stool and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. (pause) The individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino 'smin. He's simply changing different body under different circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost. Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the garments. This is perfect theory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when they think nicely, there's no reason why they don't accept it. Prabhupāda: But they are not nice men. They are rascals. They're not even gentlemen. A gentleman will have some shyness, some shame. But they're shameless. They cannot answer properly, still, shamelessly, they claim they're scientists. Brahmānanda: They're expert bluffers. Prabhupāda: They're not even gentlemen. At least, I take them like that. They're talking that in the past, from matter, living force came, and when I ask them: "Why don't you produce?", "Oh, that we shall do in the future." Why? You have already experienced in the past, and you cannot do it, and you are leaving the matter for future. So they're shameless. Not even ordinary gentlemen. Shameless. That in talking all this nonsense. That is my charge. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They're... Prabhupāda: Shameless. Shameless men. We cannot say even gentlemen. A gentleman will be shameful, ashamed to speak something nonsense. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not think. Prabhupāda: That means they are not human being. A human being thinks twice before saying anything. Animals. Karandhara: And all the innocent, they're all misled. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is our protest. That you remain a rascal at home. Why you are misleading others? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're spoiling themselves, but, not only that, they want to spoil others also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their business. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. (pause) Kṛṣṇa so easily simplifies the matter. They'll not accept it. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara*-prāptir... [Bg. 2.13]. In two lines, he solves the whole biological problems. In two lines. That is knowledge. Minimum words, maximum solution. That is knowledge. And talking nonsense and no meaning. Books, volumes of books, talking nonsense and there is no meaning. Is that knowledge? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's ignorance. Prabhupāda: Ignorance. Brahmānanda: Like the wolves, they bay: "Ohhh, ooow." Prabhupāda: The frogs. Brahmānanda: The frogs, croaking, yes. Prabhupāda: Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh... That's all. They're thinking: "Oh, we're talking very nicely." The result is the snake, they find out here is a (unclear). Pop. Finish. So this ca ca canh, scientists, means when death comes, oh, everything's finished. That's all. All their ca ca canh, scientific investigation, finished. And he becomes a dog, cat and something like that. That's all. Therefore mūḍhāḥ. They do not know that "I have got this valuable life, human form of life, advanced intelligence. I'll have to take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, and make my life successful." They do not know that. Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh. And then die, and become again. When he dies, there is no question of science and talking nonsense. That is under the grip of nature. "Yes, come on. Enter this body. Finished." Just like the rascal rogue. He's very much proud of his strength. And the police comes arrest: "Come on. Enter this custody. Finished." It is like that. Devotee: We should go back, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. [Break] All these scientists, they discover so many things. Why they did not discover something that he would not die? He would not become old? Where is that discovery? They will say: "Yes, in future." One man is kicking on your face, and you are saying: "Yes, in future, when I shall become strong, I shall kick him." But you are, my dear sir, being kicked now. What you are doing now? "Yes, I'm getting strength by your kicking." So you all write very strongly, vehemently. Even it is little offensive, still these rascals should be taught good lesson. Yes. They're misleading. Godlessness. As soon as you say "God created", immediately they become arrogant. That is our protest. If they accept God, then we give them all credit. That's all right. Otherwise zero. We don't deprecate their intention of advancement in knowledge. But we simply protest against their defying the authority of God. That is our point. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they hear Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, then their hearts will be changed. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Yesterday, somebody has thanked to our students that: "Oh, we are so obliged to you that you are supplying *Bhāgavatam*." Is it not, somebody has said? Devotees: Yes yes. Tripurāri said that. Tripurāri. Prabhupāda: Oh Tripurāri Yes. Somebody said like that? *Tripurāri: Yes, two boys yesterday at the airport, they bought two sets of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams. Jayatīrtha: Complete? Tripurāri: Six volumes. They held the Bhāgavatams and said: "Thank you very much." And then they put them in their lockers and they were waiting for their plane and they each had the First Canto... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sincere man will feel obliged of our, this propaganda movement. "By distributing these books, you are doing a great service to Kṛṣṇa." He wanted to say everyone: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He comes, therefore. So anyone who is doing the same service, that: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," he is recognized by Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69]. In the human society, nobody is dearer than him who is helping preaching work. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Brahmānanda: We are simply your puppets, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You're giving us the books. Prabhupāda: No. We are all set of puppets of Kṛṣṇa. I am also puppet. Puppet. This is disciplic succession. We, we have to become puppet. That's all. As I am puppet of my Guru Mahārāja, if you become my puppet, then that is success. Our success is there when we become puppet of the predecessor. Tāṅdera caraṇa sevi bhakta sane vāsa. To live in the society of devotees and to become puppet of the predecessor ācārya. This is success. So we are trying to do that. Kṛṣṇa consciousness society and serve the predecessor. That's all. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) People will come. People will appreciate our propaganda. It will take some time. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are appreciating more now than a couple of years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're starting to understand the genuine philosophy. (pause) All glories to you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Like some prasādam? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you distribute to all. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end of recording) Morning Walk -- April 20, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Does it mean the sand is begetting the insects? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. *Prabhupāda: So their conclusion is like that. Because they see that the insects are coming from the sand. So from matter, this life is coming. This is their logic. It is called in Sanskrit: taṇḍula*-vṛścika-nyāya. Everything is discussed. Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. You know taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Taṇḍula means rice. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Rice? *Prabhupāda: Rice. And vṛścika means scorpion. The scorpions enter within the heaps of rice and lay their eggs. And by heat of the rice, they, another baby vṛścika come out. And when they're coming out of the, that taṇḍula, rice, the rascals are thinking that the rice is begetting the vṛścika. They do not know the inner secrecy that another vṛścika, scorpion, has laid down the eggs within the rice, and by the fermentation of the heat of the rice, the eggs are fructified and the living entities coming out. Taṇḍula*-vṛścika-nyāya. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So many birds... *Prabhupāda: They have got their food. Everyone is intelligent enough where to find out food, where to lie down. Āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya. How to have sex. Everyone is intelligent. Even a small insect, the flies. I see, at night, they have sex. One fly after another. Everyone knows it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the inborn quality of the living entities. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām. The only special significance of human being is that he has got special intelligence to understand what is Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So therefore his first duty is to know the Absolute Truth. Not waste time for eating, sleeping, mating. The modern material civilization is wasting time, so-called advancement of material comforts. Simply wasting time. Nidrayā hriyate naktaṁ vyavāyena ca vā vayaḥ [SB 2.1.3]. They are wasting time at night either by sleeping or by sexual intercourse. Divā cārthehayā rājan kuṭumba-bharaṇena vā. And during daytime, simply: "Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?" And as soon as they get money, they spend it for kuṭumba-bharaṇa, for maintaining the family. This is their business. The sum total of modern civilization. And if they can purchase a nice car, that is the success of their life. Kuṭumba-bharaṇena vā. Not only for himself, for his wife, for his children, if he has got three cars. Just like our Mukunda Mahārāja is doing. He's earning one thousand dollars and spending in car. That is his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Rascal boy is so much captivated with the rascal girl. He's thinking that he's happy. He's spoiling his life. (pause) Divā cārthehayā rājan kuṭumba-bharaṇena vā [SB 2.1.3]. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api, teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati [SB 2.1.4]. Dehāpatya. Deha means body. Apatya means children. Dehāpatya-kalatra. Kalatra means wife. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣu. He thinks: "They are my soldiers. I'll fight with nature, struggle for existence. And they'll save me." Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api. Although he knows that they'll not exist, still he's so mad, teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanam, he knows I'll not exist, the soldiers will not be able to help me. paśyann api na paśyati, he sees and still he does not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. He knows by practical experience that "This society, friendship, love, nation, nobody can save me." But still he thinks that "They'll save me." Just like when you, in the aeroplane, there may be thousands of aeroplanes, others, but when your aeroplane is in danger, nobody can save you. You have to save yourself, Otherwise, you go to hell. Similarly, we have to save ourself individually by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What this material advancement will save me? Will the material advancement of knowledge can save anyone from death? Is it possible? Real problem, duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. So what this material advancement of science will help in this connection? They'll bluff: "Yes, in the future, we shall do." That's all. Bluffing. Past, present, future, never they'll be able to help. Still they're proud. "Yes, in the future, we shall do it." Dehāpatya kalatrādiṣu. Tasmād ekena manasā bhagavān sātvatāṁ patiḥ śrotavyaḥ kīrtitavyaś ca dhyeyaḥ pūjyaś ca nityadā. (pause) Dehāpatya kalatradiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api [SB 2.1.4]. (pause). They have discovered so many... Can they fly like the birds are flying, all together? There is no collision. They can go with full force. There is no collision. They haven't got even intelligence like the birds. And they're proud. If a small bird, they'll fly together, flock together, with great force, they'll not collapse. Can the scientists arrange flying like that. Immediately, they'll be all smashed. Still, they're proud of intelligence. What intelligence you have got? You are less intelligent than the birds. Karandhara: The ants also can walk. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: The ants, thousands of them without colliding. But the cars, they're always colliding. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities, when the soul is inside a body, they're much more flexible than the, the aeroplanes or cars that are made by the scientists? Prabhupāda: Yes. The aeroplane wings, they're fixed up. But the bird wings, he can do like this. Even they can do like that, where is the credit? It is already there. Many millions and thousands. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: In physical sciences, there's a branch called thermodynamics that deals with the transfer of heat and energy in different forms. So their three laws is called first law, second law and the third law. First law deals with the conservation of energy in different forms. And the second law, it is stated that the energy of the universe is constant. Just like the, in the *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, the Invocation, pūrṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the other hand the second law says that the, the entropy, that means the randomness of the all natural, spontaneously occurring natural processes, always increase. The randomness... *Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law*-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa. Then your scientific knowledge is perfect. Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department. Any department. It doesn't matter. Through that department you go to the ultimate center. Just like here is center. And there are so many spokes. So many spokes. So whichever spoke you may be, come to the center. That is your perfection. The spokes may be of different direction. Like that. But center is Kṛṣṇa. The energy, central energy is Kṛṣṇa. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. And these, these living entities, they're flying. They have got intelligence. "The men are coming. We shall be smashed." They're flying, taking shelter. Defence. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-mai... Defence, defence measures. They know how to defend themselves in their own way. Similarly they know how to eat and similarly they know how to sleep. But what is the difference between this insect and me? I can talk of God, I can understand God. It cannot. That is the difference. I can study Vedic literature, so many facilities for me. But all these facilities, all this intelligence, I am utilizing for the same purpose, eating, sleeping, sex and defence. Therefore it is useless waste of time, waste of life, valuable life. What is their benefit? Suppose you are studying that this law is working like that, this law is working like that, but you cannot help. You cannot change the law. You are under the laws. So what is the benefit simply by studying? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They get some pleasure. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just knowing the law. *Prabhupāda: That, that is sense gratification. That is sense gratification. Teṣāṁ kleśo vaśiṣyate. For that sense gratification, he's working so hard, spending so much money, but the result is that, taking labor is their business. That's all. No benefit, no other benefit. Teṣāṁ kleśa eva vaśiṣyate. Nānyat, yathā sthūla tuṣa*-khaṇḍana.(?) Just like you have taken the rice from the paddy. So now it is only skin. And if you try to employ that machine, Deki(?), what is called? Devotee: Thresher. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Deki(?) What you'll gain? *Prabhupāda: Deki, yes. Simply dag da dag da dag dak. (sound imitation) But the rice is already taken away. So their labor is being spoiled in that way. They, pleasure... For the pleasure's sake, they are spoiling the human facilities. This is their intelligence. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: jaḍa*-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jībake karaye gādhā. This jaḍa-vidyā, this material science, is simply a hindrance to our progress of spiritual life. All these rascal scientists, they'll deny God. That is their business. Just like you said yesterday that somebody was accepting God, and the other scientists, they thought: "No, it is insult." So already they are in oblivion. They cannot understand what is God. And these rascals are making them more and more rascals. "There is no God." By their scientific research, the rascals are becoming more rascals. And they're becoming captivated: "This is pleasure." What pleasure you will do you with. Therefore they are, they are gādhā. They are gādhā and they are creating gādhās. That is the song of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra... It is expansion of māyā's illusory energy. The so-called scientific advancement is simply expanding the influence of māyā's illusory energy. They're already rascals and fools, and still they are being made rascals and fools. So they're forgetting their real purpose of life and the whole human life is spoiled. This is the result of so-called scientific advancement. Brahmānanda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura also says that the modern education makes men just like an ass. Prabhupāda: That is, I am explaining. (pause) Just like this, what is called, anthropology? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Astrology? Prabhupāda: Darwin's...? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dar, Darwin? Oh, naturalists. Prabhupāda: No, No. There are... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, archaeologists? Prabhupāda: No, no. Anthropology. There's a department... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Anthropologists study with the skulls and... Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. This is... Karandhara: Ecology? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Anthropology. It is a false theory, and upon this so many universities are spending money, professors. Thousands. Rascal theory. You see. In this way, they're wasting money. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Karandhara: They always have to revise their theories because about every few years they find something new which contradicts everything they have said before. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their intelligence. Brahmānanda: And they think that's progress. Prabhupāda: Yes. Progress in one sense. Because they're rascals, making little progress. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Advancing in the wrong direction. Prabhupāda: But the real progress is that when they will understand that: "We are rascals." That will be real progress, when they come to understand that: "We are all fools and rascals." That will be real progress. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu presented Himself that: "My Guru Mahārāja found me a rascal number one. Yes." That is real progress. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science is nearing that stage. Science... Prabhupāda: Because they're going to accept that they're all rascals? That will be the real progress. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of rascaldom, when he comes to Kṛṣṇa and surrenders. Yes. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. He is everything. That is real knowledge. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: A group of scientists are now working on the idea that before we start anything, one should think... Prabhupāda: No, there is the latest theory. What is this, theory of ignorance? Or what is that? Theory of impossibility, or something like that? Karandhara: Oh, theory of uncertainty? Prabhupāda: Uncertainty, yes. Theory of uncertainty. Everything is uncertain. And that is little intelligence. That, how to find out the certainty. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists, they claim that the discoveries are accidental and incidental, by accident, by chance. Prabhupāda: What is this? That means they're fools. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In many instances, when they try to find out something, they do not find the real one that they want, but in between, along the way, they find something else. So that is why they call it by accident. Because they did not aim for that, but somehow they get it along the way. (pause) [break] Prabhupāda: ...also know how to keep pace with the big, big waves. They know how to do it. They're not afraid of big waves. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They know that the wave is coming. They run because they know that the wave is coming. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And they know how to go forward and come back. Who has taught them this discipline? Kṛṣṇa is there, within. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa is dictating: "Now you go forward. Now you come back. Here is your food." He's giving intelligence. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. He's giving direction in every living entity, but when a human being, He gives direction, if he surrenders, that: "Go this way. You'll come to Me." Dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ taṁ yena mām upayānti te. And that is human intelligence. So far these lower animals are concerned, they are given, being given intelligence how to eat, how to sleep, how to mate, how to defend. But a human being, if he engages himself in the service of the Lord, then Lord will give intelligence how to come back to home, back to Godhead. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the condition. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam [Bg. 10.10]. "Only to those who are engaged in devotional service with love and faith, I give him intelligence how to come back to home, back to Godhead." Therefore, after coming to human form of body, we must awaken our intelligence about understanding the Supreme Lord. And if we take up the process sincerely, with love, then Lord within will give you dictation: "You come this way, come this way, come this way." Otherwise, not. The first condition is: teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām. Therefore we are trying to engage all our disciples to be engaged twenty-four hours in devotional service. Then his life will be successful. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Satata. Satata means always, constantly. Just like we are walking, but we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Others are walking. They're wasting time. But we are, we are walking, but, at the same time, we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are eating. We are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are sleeping. We are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are working... Always. Then Kṛṣṇa will see: "Now he's serious. Let him have some intelligence, how he can come back to home." This is the process. And the pleasure of sense gratification, oh, that is also known how to do it by the hogs and dogs. They know. The hogs are eating everything, up to stool, for sense gratification. So the human being, if they have no discrimination, they can eat anything and everything for sense grati..., they are no better than hogs. What is the difference between hog and human being? The hog has no discrimination of eating. Anything it will eat, up to stool. So if a human being becomes like hog, without any discrimination, he will eat anything, that is advancement of civilization? Advancement of becoming hog. That's all. And they like, actually. The hippies, they like hogs. Brahmānanda: They worship them. *Prabhupāda: Worship. That is their advancement of... After taking so much university education, they have learned how to love hogs. Just see the fun. (pause) They are living within the sand. How these rascals are speaking that because in the moon planet there is sand only there is no living entity. How we can believe? We see practically. They do not go to the garden. They live within the sand. How they are living? (pause*-break) ...and they do some acrobatic feats, like that. Still they're in no condition. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're smart. Prabhupāda: So that smartness you haven't got. Even of a small bird. And still you are proud of advancement. The vulture goes up and he can see everything but when you go up, aeroplane, up you cannot see where is your home. Is it not? They can find out, four miles, five miles away, where is a corpse. Immediately they flock. (pause) What is this building? Some... Karandhara: An auditorium. We're going to have a festival here on, next month. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. What do they charge? Karandhara: Well, if you don't charge anything, they don't charge you anything for using it. Prabhupāda: Oh, they don't charge? Karandhara: No. If you don't charge people for coming to the function, they don't charge you for using this place. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Karandhara: It's owned by the city. Prabhupāda: This is good. We can hold meetings, distribute prasādam. (pause) They have discovered computer machine...? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And put some sand in it. Let it count. Not very much. A handful of sand and put in. The machine will stop. The result will be the machine will be no more working. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Computer will reject. Prabhupāda: Eh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Computer will reject, saying that: "I cannot do it." Prabhupāda: They reject? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Something which is not possible... Prabhupāda: Then, then it is imperfect. If he cannot count, reject, then it is imperfect. Hare Rāma Hare Rāma... Karandhara: They would estimate. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: They would estimate. Prabhupāda: What is that, estimating. Estimate how many...? Karandhara: They cannot count perfectly. So they estimate. Prabhupāda: Rough idea. (pause) So on the sea side, it is more pleasant than in the park. Is it not? Brace air. (pause) This is bike route? Bicycle route? Karandhara: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: The car looks like governor's car. *Devotee: Jagad*-guru (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa (end) Morning Walk -- April 21, 1973, Los Angeles Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Hindi) ...Bhavānanda Mahārāja, Sudāmā Mahārāja, very nice. (pause) Everyone was dancing. Prabhupāda: They have discovered one watch machine. You have seen that? You can, you can immediately know what is the time where all the important places. Brahmānanda: By a dial? Prabhupāda: No, by electricity. Karandhara: Yes. It has a dial on it. You turn the dial and it tells you the time in different places... (pause) Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana, there is a place called Nidhuvana. Devotee: Nidhuvana? Prabhupāda: Nidhuvana. So that was a place... Still people go to visit. So one Bhagavān dāsa Bābājī, he was chanting, and in the middle of his chanting he made (makes sound with hands like clapping) like this. So his disciples... (pause) Yes. His disciples asked him: "Sir, why did you (makes clapping sound) do like this?" "So there was a goat entered Nidhuvana. So I drove it away." So where is that machine by which you can see...? It is not the time, but see the activities of everywhere? But that is possible. Yes. Brahmānanda: Oh, even though he did not see the goat, he knew it was there. Prabhupāda: No, he's seeing. Otherwise, how does he (makes sound) "Hut, hut, hut." He's seeing. Where is that machine? So this Darwin's theory says that there was no intelligent man or brain but how these books were written, thousands and thousands of years ago? These Vedic śāstras. If there were no intelligent brain? Vyāsadeva, like Vyāsadeva. Before Vyāsadeva also, other great sages, they compiled... Brahmānanda: They have no explanation. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: They have no explanation. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think it's easier here. Brahmānanda: They have no explanation for the author who, of the Vedic literatures. They say: "unknown forest sages." Prabhupāda: Unknown, it may be unknown, but the things are there. Where from they got the brain? That is our question. It may be unknown to you, or unknown to me, but the brain work is there. The philosophy is there, and the... At least, the language, the poetic arrangement, the linguistic strength, everything is there. So you may not know the person, but you can understand the brain. Just like... Brahmānanda: They think our brain is increasing, but actually we see it decreasing. Because we cannot duplicate that... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only duplicate. You cannot even understand properly. Do you... To understand the Vedic philosophy, you have to tax your brain. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā. Take, for Bhagavad-gītā. It is accepted as a great book of philosophy all over the world. And... Now wherefrom this brain came out. Apart from accepting Kṛṣṇa as God, take it, the language, take the language, the philosophy, the thoughts. How great they are. Now how can you say that people had no higher brain. Within hundred years everything has grown up. All these rascals. What is the Darwin's age? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Darwin says the, he says in his history of the origin, he cannot trace completely. Prabhupāda: Whatever he has traced, what is the history of that tracing history? Tracing age? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he started that life started from very primitive, different primitive forms... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. What is the time of Darwin. Which year he was a professor? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The theory started in 1859, about... Prabhupāda: 1859. So hundred years ago. So all the brains developed within hundred years. All these rascals came out within hundred years. And before that, there was no other rascal. Just see the fun. All the scientific improvement, anthropology, everything came within hundred or two hundred years. Brahmānanda: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: Yes. That is their idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. Before that, there were no brain. Brahmānanda: 'Cause they didn't understand his theory. Prabhupāda: Just see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because before that, they're thinking that there's no intelligent person... Prabhupāda: That, that, I am pointing out, that all intelligent persons, during the British Empire, they came out. The whole aim was to defy the Indian civilization. Karandhara: They call it the "Age of Enlightenment." Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: After the fifteenth century, they call it the "Age of Enlightenment." *Prabhupāda: So the Britishers, they wanted to rule over India, and they were advertising, at least in India, that: "We are making you civilized. Before British rule, the Indians were rude, primitive natives." That's all. That is their propaganda. The whole propaganda was to make the Indians known that: "We are giving you life and civilization. Before this, you were not even human beings." That is their propaganda. So they accept this literature, but they date within one thousand years, one thousand*-five hundred years. Even this rascal, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he dates Bhagavad-gītā within two thousand years. That's all. Perhaps I am the first person making propaganda that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. I am the first person. All other so-called scholars, they have dated within two thousand years. (pause) There was a book: "England's work in India," written by one rascal Indian, M. Ghosh. In that book... That was taught in the schools in our days. The theme of the book is that before British rule, India was not at all advanced in any way. The incidence of satī... Satī. That was very elaborately explained. Satī... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Satī dharma? Prabhupāda: Satī dharma. Yes. Formerly, even Arjuna's stepmother, Mādrī, he also, she also died with her husband. That was the system. The wife voluntarily used to die along with the husband. Brahmānanda: Gāndhārī. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: Gāndhārī, wife of Dhṛtarāṣṭra. Prabhupāda: Yes. So later on such devoted wife was lacking. So the system was, some cases, they were forced to die. So these things have been elaborately explained in the, that book, and Britishers stopped it. So the Indians were uncivilized. Britishers made them civilized. Everything was misinterpreted. Yes. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they do not know the inner meaning... Prabhupāda: No, inner meaning is there. But they would not explain that. Simply the dark side, they would explain. And prove that the Indian civilization was very crude and primitive. It has no enlightenment. That was British propaganda. Even during national movement, they bribed one American woman, and she wrote a book: "Mother India." Do you know that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I, no... Prabhupāda: Ah. "Mother India." She described all the blackmailing of Indian social activities, and Gandhi remarked it: "Drain Inspector's report." Brahmānanda: What? Prabhupāda: "Drain inspector's report." Brahmānanda: Drain? Prabhupāda: Drain, that sewage water... Brahmānanda: The sewer. Prabhupāda: Sewage water. Brahmānanda: That's what she inspected. *Prabhupāda: She's a drain inspection report. And in reply to that, one Punjabi barrister, he wrote one book: "Uncle Sam". He pointed out all the blackmailing of American government. So these things are going on. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Those who are low class of men, they simply try to find out the faults. Guṇa icchanti saj*-janāḥ. And those who are enlightened, they will take the qualities only. Saj-janā guṇa icchanti, doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ, mukti brāhmaṇā icchanti madhum icchanti bhramarāḥ. Yes. That, there are flies, ordinary flies. They are searching after sores, where is sore in your body. And there are bumblebees, they are searching after where is honey. Similarly, those who are rascals, they'll find out: "Oh, here is a fault. Here is a fault." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is a demoniac quality. Prabhupāda: Yes. These Britishers should have tried to assimilate the mass Indian culture with their help, administrative help, to broadcast this culture. No. They wanted to exploit India, and prove that "our ruling over India"... Because they have to show something to the outside world... Brahmānanda: To justify that exploitation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) They would not allow anyone to enter India to make trade. And that is the cause of two big world wars. This is a... Real cause is India. Because the Germans, they were very intelligent. They were intelligent nation. They wanted to trade with India. So Britishers will not allow them. Actually, Britishers were selling goods, purchasing from Germany and Japan, And when German would go to trade, they will enhance the custom duty very, very large amount. So that was the grudge of the German nation. Two times, they fought with that "Finish these Britishers*-shop-keeper's nation." Yes. Hitler, Hitler was... Hitler or the Emperor Wilhelm, some of them, one of them, was calling the Britishers: "shop-keeper's nation." Brahmānanda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shop*-keeper's nail? *Prabhupāda: Shop*-keeper's nation. *Brahmānanda: A nation of shop*-keepers only. *Prabhupāda: That's right. Why the shop*-keeper's nation should predominate all over the world? Kill them. That is their (indistinct). And actually it is the German people who killed Britishers, British lion. Apart, after the Second War... Brahmānanda: British was finished. Prabhupāda: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history. Brahmānanda: The, the independence movement of Africa, they took great inspiration from Gandhi's movement. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Brahmānanda: If Gandhi did it, then, they say: "Oh, now we can do it." Prabhupāda: Gandhi started the movement from Africa. South Africa. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gandhi was attempted to be killed in South Africa. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. One time he was crossing the street and the man beaten him so severely. He could have died. One Englishman saved him. He was attempted to be killed. After this incidence, when Gandhi returned to India, he became leader automatically. (pause) When Dr. Kalidasa*-nama... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kalidasa? *Prabhupāda: Dr. Kalidasa*-nama. Did you hear his name? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Only just now. Prabhupāda: He was our professor. So he was explaining the different ages of archaeologist, anthropology. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is in philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, history. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, history. Prabhupāda: In my honors class, I had history. He was teaching us history. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the standard of Calcutta University, Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time when Śrīla Prabhupāda was in the University? How was the... Prabhupāda: Oh, it was nice. Very nice students were coming out. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The moral standard was very good? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We respected our professors like our fathers. The relationship between the student and the professors was very good. I had one Scottish professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. He was my nice friend. He was professor of philosophy, psychology. Later on he became vice*-chancellor. Brahmānanda: Calcutta? *Prabhupāda: Calcutta, yes. A very perfect gentleman. Kind*-hearted. Sometimes we joked. We were taking this, what is called, peanuts. So the professor was passing. So some of our friends remarked: (Bengali) So he thought that professor did not know Bengali. So immediately he turned: (Bengali). So we became very much ashamed. Yes. So all the professors from foreign countries, they were instructed to learn Bengali language, local language. That was the system. All officers, big officers, educate... (Aside) Good morning. ...big educationists, they were to learn the local language. And they used to learn Bengali. Especially in Calcutta. There was one professor, Mr. Scrimgeour. He was professor of literature, English literature. So while teaching one English literature, he was giving parallel passage from Bankim Candra Chatterjee. Yes. "Your Bankim babu says like this." He used to say like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: That means he studied Bankim literature. Bankim Candra Chatterjee was compared with Sir Walter Scott, of English literary men. Sir Walter Scott. In those days, Charles Dickens. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Charles Dickens? Prabhupāda: Yes. And Sir Walter Scott were known two very great English literary men. Karandhara: Novelists. Prabhupāda: After sixth year... Yes novelists. So the relationship was very nice. There were... Otherwise, how the Britishers could rule, unless there was obedience. But as soon as they saw now the obedience is going on, the soldiers are leaving our camp and joining the national camp," immediately they decided to leave peacefully. Otherwise, there would be some revolution. At that time, all good relationship will go. Better separate with good relation. This was Attlee's policy, to convince statesmen like Churchill that: "You cannot rule over India any more. Better separate in good relationship." Svarūpa Dāmodara: A few weeks ago, there was a supplement in the Times, the London Times. So they were describing about the very relationship between British and India, in the early British period and after the British period. There they talked only about very good points, whereas they never say anything about... All good points. *Prabhupāda: No, that... When they discuss, they must describe the good points only. But some of the British rulers were very, very unkind. And the last was that Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, created by Lord Chelmsford. Then the British rule finished. In 1917, and immediately Gandhi started non*-cooperation movement. So after thirty years, the Britishers were obliged to leave. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Scottish Church College in Calcutta... Prabhupāda: Yes. I was student there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Śrīla Prabhupāda was in Scottish Church? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very popular among the... Prabhupāda: Oh, Yes. In Calcutta, there are two colleges, Presidency College and Scottish Churches College. All respectable families, son will go there, Scottish Churches College, Presidency College. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They started almost at the same time? Prabhupāda: No, no. It is very old. Presidency College is government, and Scottish Churches College, by the Scottish Church missionaries. There was one priest, Duff, his name was Duff. He started in Srirampur, a small educational institute, Duff Institute. He was a Scotsman. Later on, all the Scottish missionaries combined together and they started this Scottish Churches College. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still now the schools are respected now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still now they have good names,... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Presidency College and Scottish Church College. Prabhupāda: Now they are ruined due to this Naxalite movement. Subash Bose was in our college. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, Scottish? Oh. Prabhupāda: He was first in the Presidency College, but on account of his national spirit, he was rusticated from Presidency College. Then he came to our college. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...Subash Bose Research Institute in Calcutta in... Prabhupāda: Subash Bose? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. About the museum. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Hazrat, Hazrat road it is in...near, not far from...? Prabhupāda: Mahajati? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, maha... Prabhupāda: Mahajati Sadhana. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Mahajati Sadhana. Prabhupāda: That is in Central Calcutta. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are many foreign scholars from, they're mostly from Japan, and many... Prabhupāda: I don't find. I do not know much about it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I was in Calcutta, I used to go there quite regularly. Because I was studying German. They have got German classes better in that institute. Prabhupāda: This is the food for the fish? Karandhara: Yes, bait. Prabhupāda: Horse dung? Brahmānanda: No, clams. Karandhara: Clams. Prabhupāda: What is that, clam? Brahmānanda: Shellfish. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) So many... Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are so many flies. Prabhupāda: They are not flies. They're insect of the sand. They live within the sand. The scientists will say: "You see? The living entities coming out of sand, from matter." Brahmānanda: Automatically, they say. Prabhupāda: But why don't you create from sand? Flying like that. You are so advanced. Take some grains of sand and create another fly. They cannot create even an ant, and still they say that life is coming out from matter. And in future we shall create. In future, what is your credit? It is already there. If your science is perfect, that life is coming out of matter, now prove it by laboratory experiment. Take some sand and create some life. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're concluding, the scientists, that without having the real knowledge of their investigation. Because they are concluding that life started from matter, but there's no proof. Prabhupāda: No proof. How they can say so? (pause) If they accept that life started from life, then they'll have to accept God, the Supreme Person. Just like by practical experience we see one life is produced by another life. The father, mother begets a child. Not that a child drops from the sky. Their test tube experiment also depends on the father and mother. So what is that? Where is the proof? In the test tube you mix some chemical and produce a child. Then your theory is all right. You cannot create even an ant, even a fly. And still you are claiming that you can manufacture human being? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What they'll say manufacture means they will take a seed, that... But *Prabhupāda: But that means that is not... Originally, it is from life. Seed is from the life. So where is your proof that matter produces life? Then you have to accept: life produces life. According to our śāstra, within the semina of the father, the living body, living entity, takes shelter. And it is injected to the mother's womb and the two matters mixes and the body forms. This is our śāstric explanation. Not that the semina discharged by the father, that is life. No. Within that semina, the living entity takes shelter. And it is put into favorable condition. Then it develops the body. This is... We, we find in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. That putting of the living entity in a particular type of semina depends on higher authorities. The higher authorities will judge what kind of body this living entity, after leaving this body, will get. So by higher authority it will be directed to enter into the semina of such father, and it will be injected into the womb of the mother. Then you'll get, develop a particular type of body and come out and suffer or enjoy. This is the process. Brahmānanda: If that semina is misused or wasted, then that disrupts the plan of the authorities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: It's a serious matter. Prabhupāda: Therefore this contraceptive method is sinful activity. Abortion, contraceptive method. This is against the, I mean to say, plan of the Supreme. Just like the government is making some plan, and if you spoil it, you are criminal. What is the time now? Brahmānanda: Twenty of seven. Twenty minutes of seven. Prabhupāda: So we can return now. Which way? (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So their statement that life started from matter can be disproved very easily? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Any child can disprove it. And that theory is also wrong that lower type of animals were first created. No. All different varieties were, all were existing. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda explains that in, in Bhagavad*-gītā, in one of the purports. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whatever desire the living entities had before the annihilation, that became the, the living entities enter into different bodies according to their... Prabhupāda: Desire. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...desire. Prabhupāda: He wanted a certain type of life. So nature gives him. "All right, take this body." He desires in a certain way, means he's associating with the quality of nature in a method, and according to that association, he's getting a particular type of body. Mind, mind is the creative force. Thinking. Thinking, feeling, willing. These are the psychological functions. So, first of all, thinking. Then he develops to work. And it is work you get a particular type of situation. [Break] One enters into the body of a pig. Then he'll have to go under the evolutionary process. Just like if you, if you are on the topmost staircase. Somehow or other you fall down. Then again you have to go, step by step. This is the... The steps are always there. Not that the steps are created for you. No. The steps are already there. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is dirty. Prabhupāda: It is loose. On account of hastiness, I could not properly set up. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some birds, Śrīla Prabhupāda, like the minaḥ...? Prabhupāda: Minaḥ, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can be taught to say something. So if they are taught to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa..., Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...then are this, this is a good service? Prabhupāda: Yes. Little service. By hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be elevated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the bird doesn't know that he's chanting... Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't know. Brahmānanda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He could teach animals the chanting of the names of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu can do everything. He can deliver anyone without chanting. For Him, there is no condition. So this morning, I could not wash my face. So therefore, the cookies may be distributed to the devotees. I have not washed my face, you see. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (end of recording) Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they'll say, that, some scientists, that the science deals with the matter, or the physical matter, and so they try to... Prabhupāda: No physical matter, wherefrom the physical matter comes? Unless you come to that point, you are not a scientist. Wherefrom the matter comes? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometime, sometimes they try to relate science and the religion, some scientists, and they make a differentiation. They say religion... Prabhupāda: No, religion, when you come to the real cause of everything, then you come to religion. Religion is the science of sciences. Because you are trying to find out the original cause, and as soon you come to the original cause, He is God, original cause. So as soon as you come to God, then there is religion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And that, that definition of differentiation is that they say religion deals with the value of life, the moral and ethics... And on the other hand... *Prabhupāda: Religion, religion is the source of moral and ethics. Because religion means to come to the perfectional point. So as soon as there is perfection, moral and ethics are already there. So called moral ethics, that is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. If one is not a devotee of the Lord, his morality has no value. That is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Mahad-guṇāḥ, high qualities, moral, ethics, they are high qualities. So Bhāgavata says that unless one is devotee of God, he cannot have high qualities. That is artificial. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So without God consciousness, there's no question of morality. Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of morality. First of all, define what is morality? What is the definition of morality? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The value of life in its proper perspective. Prabhupāda: Value of life, everyone has got his own value of life. a drunkard, he has got his value of life. That "When I drink, it is value." Is that morality? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the morality of the drunkard. Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone has got his own morality. Then what is the standard morality? Brahmānanda: Yeah. There must be a standard for everyone. Prabhupāda: That is Ramakrishna mission's morality: yata mata tata patha. Whatever you think, that is your way. Yata mata tata patha. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yata mata tata patha. Prabhupāda: As many ways you think, that's all right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is how they define morality. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you make your own morality. Brahmānanda: That's not standard, though. Prabhupāda: No. These rascals do like that, so why don't you make your own law in the state? Brahmānanda: Cannot. Prabhupāda: Why do they not make their own law, that I have got my own law. I don't care for state law." Will they be accepted? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll be caught. Brahmānanda: Anyone who does that is either criminal or insane. Prabhupāda: Yes, insane. All criminality is done when one is insane. That is the definition of the *Vedas*. Everyone is criminal when he's insane. Sane man never commits any criminality. Just like when a, when a man commits murder, unless he becomes insane, he cannot commit murder. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So among the college students, among the college students it's very common that they say: "I don't care what is said." These people, students. Prabhupāda: Yes, but... Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to, I want to follow my own aim and desire, my own morality. They say like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why don't you do that in case of your relationship to the state. Suppose the state says: "You must drive to the right." Why don't you drive on the left? Why do you obey the state laws? What does he say? You do whatever you like. Brahmānanda: That means there's someone more powerful than they are. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: They have to obey. Prabhupāda: Immediately he'll be kicked on his face. "You rascal, why you driving. Kick on your..."(laughter) and what he'll say at that time? Can he say that: "Yes, it is my law. I'll do this." Can he say like this? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He cannot say like this. Prabhupāda: Then, then what is this? It is insanity. What you cannot do, if you say: "I can do it," Then it is insanity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They just argue without any background. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just for argument... *Prabhupāda: That means the so*-called education making them all rascals and fools. That's all. The education has no value. We therefore say that you close all these universities. You are simply producing rascals and fools. That's all. Brahmānanda: Asses. *Prabhupāda: Asses, mūḍhāḥ. Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we don't give any value to so*-called education, advancement of knowledge. We don't give any value. Our only formula is harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no value. Immediately reject him. He has no value of his life. We are advocating Kṛṣṇa consciousness not on sentiment, on the value of life. That these men are being carried away by whims without any value of life. Let us save them. That is our mission. Just like a, a foolish person is going in, on the ocean. So it is: "Oh, why you are going that way? Where you are going? You are a madman." This is the duty. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly these rascals are going to hell and we are trying to save them. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I read an article by Śrīla Prabhupāda about sometime in 1935 or 40, early in the Back to Godhead magazine. In the earlier copies, the Prabhupāda writes about the standard of morality in one article. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There everything is very nicely explained. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one time, standard of morality. (pause) We have got very simple formulas from the statement of śāstras. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Hari is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, abhakta, nondevotee, a person who is not a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, kuto mahad-guṇāḥ, where is his high qualities? No, no high qualities. In the Bhagavad-gītā also: na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So we see whether he has surrendered to God. Otherwise, he's a mūḍhaḥ, rascal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The first one is from *Bhāgavatam*, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: That is from Bhagavad*-gītā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the first one. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brahmānanda: Harāv abhakta... *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā manorathena... Manorathena [SB 5.18.12]. These rascals, they are simply speculating on the mental platform. That's all. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. They are entrapped by the external energy, by mental speculation. They have no value. All these scientists, philosophers, they're on the mental platform, speculating. I am certi... I say this. You say: "No, I say this." You see. Who is correct? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It doesn't matter. *Prabhupāda: No, it doesn't mat... Therefore they're all madmen. You can speak in your own way. I'll speak in my own way and another fool thinks that both of them are scientists. They do not agree. Still he's scientist. Just see. Cheaters and the cheated. Somebody's cheating and somebody's becoming cheated. The whole society's the combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. I see both of them, they do not agree. Just like they have rejected religion because two religionists, they do not agree. So why not these rascal scientists? They do not agree. Just see. They are so fool. But still they are after that. Their modern people they have rejected religion because they say that one religionist does not agree with another religionist. So there is no... Skepticism. So why not about the scientists? Just see. Everywhere you will find contradiction. Therefore anyone... and we are find out this contradiction because we have little attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Others cannot find out. We are challenging scientists, philosophers, although we are teeny person, because we have little attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, who is detecting their follies? Nobody. The scientist's follies, the philosopher follies, their contradiction... A devotee can find out. Paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣā. Unless one is highly enlightened, one cannot find out these defects, contradiction. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. We have got simple formulas in the śāstras. Simply on the basis of those formulas... Whole Vedic literature is like that. Just like Āyurveda, Āyurveda or astrology. Everything is like that. Āyurveda, the medicine. They have to learn only the beating of the pulse. If one becomes expert in which way the pulse beating is going on... They have got example. Just like some birds jump over like this. Some bird goes like this. So they have got example how the pulse is beating, jumping or easily going. So the symptoms, if one can study, he becomes physician, first-class. Immediately. Because as soon as he can study the pulse, how it is beating, in which way... That is, that requires little experience. Then immediately the formula is that if the pulse is beating in this way, then these symptoms will be there. And he will ask the patient... Brahmānanda: To confirm the symptoms. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Confirm the symptoms. If he says: "Yes," then immediately diagnosis is there. And as soon as diagnosis is there, the medicine is there. Simple method. Similarly, astrologers, they will see the constellation of the stars, and then the formula is there. "If this star is now with this star, if that planet is with that planet, then this is the result." So this Āyurvedic astrologer and physician requires little clear brain. Otherwise, very nice. The research work is already there. Just like we are. What is our research? Kṛṣṇa says: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. "There is another nature." We believe it. We have not gone to another nature. But Kṛṣṇa says: "There is another nature, spiritual nature." This is, this material nature, inferior nature, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4], apareyam, this is inferior. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām [Bg. 7.5]. There is another superior nature. What is that? The living force. Who will argue? So we have got very easy method. And because we are receiving all this information from the most perfect, therefore our knowledge is perfect. That's all. And for all these rascals, śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Unnecessarily they're laboring. They cannot come to the right conclusion. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāh. Oh, what is the good quality? If you unnecessarily work without any result, then what is your qualification? Brahmānanda: Mūḍha. Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, ass. The ass works without any profit. So these are asses. Without coming to the right conclusion, they're working hard, day and night, and spending lots of money. So mūḍhas. (pause) Why the scientists are searching out protons, neutrons? To find out the original cause. So they could not find the original cause. They see the middle work only, how the proton is working, neutron is working, atom is working. But wherefrom this arrangement came? How they are working systematically? They do not know. So what is their science? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like studying that shadow. Prabhupāda: That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we know that there is a shadow. So there must be a real object. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is real object, there cannot be shadow. Now the sky is clouded. We cannot see above the cloud. Does it mean there is nothing? If somebody: "Oh, there is nothing (indistinct)" Brahmānanda: All we have to do is fly up there, and it's bright as sun. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow we have to remove the covering. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) We don't give any credit to any man if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our final conclusion. We can give credit so much, as you have got. Just like you are a driver. So I can give you the credit of a driver. But I cannot give you the credit of a high*-court judge. So much, what you know, that much credit... Brahmānanda: Future. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When in future you become high*-court judge, then I shall give you credit. Why before you want to take credit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one has to have certain qualifications. *Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. The bird has got also certain qualifications. What is this. You cannot jump over like that. Just see how it is doing, a small bird. He has got complete sense how to protect. He's doing his business. So everyone has got some qualification, by nature's gift. One bird can go seven miles away and he can see where is his food. You cannot see half a mile even. What is the value of your eyes in comparison to that bird? There are so many wonderful things done by the animals, without any scientific knowledge, so*-called scientific knowledge. So scientific knowledge for material comforts, that knowledge is there even in the birds and beasts, for material comforts. They know how to do it. Why these laboratories? There is no need of. Because if your knowledge is for these four things, eating, sleeping and mating, then what is the value of such knowledge? The bird will also die after eating, sleeping. You'll also die after eating, sleeping. Then where is the advancement of knowledge. You have not improved in any way than the birds and the beasts. You cannot check death. The bird also cannot check death. Then where is the advancement? Simply the bird is finding out food by the beaks, and you eat on a table, chair. Therefore you are advanced? You are also eating, he's also eating. He's eating his own way. You are eating in his own way. Does it mean advancement? But when death comes, the bird will be also kicked out, you'll be also kicked out. Then where is your advancement. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Advancement in sensual science. *Prabhupāda: But that is not advancement. That is wasting time. Suppose primitive man, he has got also sensual engagement. Does the primitive man has no sex life? He has got his woman. He has got sex life. The dog has got sex life. The cat has got sex life. You have got sex life. And because you have your sex life nicely dressed, you are advanced? This is foolishness. We have to see the result. Āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. These four things, eating, sleeping, sex life and defence, even you'll find in the birds and beasts. And you are, if you are engaged in these four things, in so-called scientific way, then where is your advancement? When death will come, your science will not save you. As the bird will not be saved, you'll not be saved. Then where is your advancement? You are going on the motor car, say, twenty miles. One bird can fly fifty miles. Even he's more expert. I have seen in the ship, the skylark they go equal speed. The ship is running on, twenty-five miles speed or thirty miles. They're going. So where is your expert? By nature, it is expert. Just like these dogs, they are jumping with great force in the ocean and they'll come back; *similarly you also go with your surf, and again come back. Where is the difference between this dog and you? So you have to compare that where, where is your advancement of knowledge? Advancement of knowledge means to mitigate, minimize miseries of life. That is called advancement of knowledge. But you... The real miseries of life is birth, death, old age and disease. You cannot do anything. So where is your advancement of knowledge? The scientists cannot stop death, cannot stop birth. They are inventing so many chemical contraceptive methods. But the statistic is population is increasing. Even they're unsuccessful in this account. The statistics is that every minute or second, three persons are increasing all over the world. Where is your contraceptive? You cannot check even birth. Birth, de ... and Bhagavad*-gītā says: "These are real problems, birth, death, old age and disease." So what you have done about these things? We have to see. Then we can accept that you are advanced. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't want to think about it. Prabhupāda: Because they cannot do anything. Just like some foolish animal. When there is danger, they close the eyes. Brahmānanda: The rabbit. Prabhupāda: They think that: "My danger is over. Because I do not see anymore." Yes. So many animals, they die. Monkeys, rabbits, they die. When there is danger, they close the eyes. That's all. So similarly these rascals, they cannot make any solution of these problems, therefore they set aside. Don't trouble. What is this advancement? They are constructing big, big houses with a hope they'll live in this house comfortably. But any day we'll be kicked out: "Get out." What he can do? Why he's laboring so much? Suppose if you are constructing some house, if somebody says that you are going to die tomorrow, will you do it? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No sane man will do it. But death is sure. You are making very nice foundation. But you'll have to leave. You cannot remain there. That, they do not know. Jawaharlal Nehru worked for... Gandhi worked for his country so much. Now where they are? Nobody knows. Brahmānanda: Where? Prabhupāda: Where is Jawaharlal Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi? They worked so hard for nation. Now he's dead and gone. Now where he is? Neither the nation knows. Whether he has now... Some astrologer told that he has become a dog in Sweden. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has become a dog...? Prabhupāda: Dog. Brahmānanda: Nehru. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is possibility. Dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Change of body. So if... According to laws of nature, you have to change your body. You cannot dictate the laws of nature that: "Give me this body. Give me again American body." That is not possible. When you are dead, you have to accept another body. It may be cat's body, dog's body. It doesn't matter. You cannot dictate nature that: "Give me a body like this." Brahmānanda: Just like when the magistrate gives you a sentence, you cannot say: "Oh, give me this sentence..." No, you must accept. Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: ...what the punishment is. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Neither you can say the magistrate partial, the judge. Somebody, he gives, "Give him degree for one million dollars." Another: "Hang him." So the judge is not partial. He is getting his money. He's getting his punishment. He's simply making judgement. He's not impartial. He's not enemy to anyone or friend to anyone. Similarly according to your work, you'll get punishment or reward by God. God is not partial. Brahmānanda: That's another argument they give that when there's some calamity, then they say: "Oh,..." Then they blame the Supreme... Prabhupāda: God. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And when there's profit, that is His credit. Then he'll say: "Oh, I have worked so hard. Now I have got this profit." And when there is calamity, "Oh, what can I do, it is God's desire." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we experience almost daily that we suffer so much. So we see almost daily that people are dying, they are killed in the car accident... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...burned in houses... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...so many things. We experience almost daily. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still people seem to not think about... *Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: duḥkhālayam. This is a place for suffering only. This material world is a place for suffering. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: duḥkhālayam... And that suffering, that also you, you cannot make any, what is called, compromise. "All right, it is suffering. I shall remain here." But that also you cannot. Some day nature will kick you out. "Get out." Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Even if you accept this place of misery to be your permanent residence, that also you cannot have. You have to go out. Today or tomorrow or fifty years after, you have to go. That is the mistake. I am thinking: "Now I have got this American body, or this body, that body. I am very happy." But how long you'll remain in this condition? Any moment, you will be kicked out. This is laws of nature. Therefore my intelligence will, will be shown when we are trying for the real eternal life. That is (indistinct). Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this suffering is all due to the desire of the individual souls. Prabhupāda: That... The...suffering is there. Suppose you are in the ocean. It is suffering, but if you have got a good ship, you may think that: "I'm very well situated." That good ship also can sink at any moment. Suffering is always there. You cannot avoid the suffering. Because you are in the ocean. Suppose you are in the air in a very nice plane. Does it mean you are secure? Any moment it can be... There is dangers everywhere. Therefore this place is always dangerous. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58], always dangerous. So the real intelligence means you have to find out where there is no danger. That is the... Where there is real happiness. In the material world, we cannot have happiness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So without the proper guidance... Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without the proper guidance...? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything requires guidance. You are working in the laboratory under guidance. Similarly, everything requires guidance. Just like these small birds. First of all, they learn with the mother. The mother goes and they go. The mother come back, they come back. So guidance. Nature's way, guidance. And when they become little habituated, then without mother, they can do their business. That guidance is there everywhere. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause*-break) ...kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti [Bg. 8.15]. "Anyone who reaches Me, he does not come back to this material world full of miseries and temporary life." That means anyone who goes back to home, back to Godhead, there is no misery, there is no temporary life. It must be the opposite. Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti [Bg. 8.15]. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām... That is highest perfection. Paramām. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramām. Every... all this scientific research is going on for perfection. They say the world is imperfect. That's, that is a fact. Imperfect. Imperfect means here you cannot get happiness and cannot live permanently. This is imperfection. That they do not know. That question they set aside. The problem, if you say to the scientist: "What you have done for the human society to live eternally in perfect happiness?" What is their answer? Brahmānanda: They do just the opposite. They accelerate the death and they create more problems. Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that they are trying. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Therefore we kick on your face. (laughter) Therefore we have got the right to kick on your face. (laughter) Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have now some theories how to prolong life, how to live longer. *Prabhupāda: What is that? Even if you live longer, does it mean that eternal life? That is already there. I'll live for eighty years. Another lives, for, say, sixty years. Another lives for hundred years. That is already there. The trees live for thousands of years. Does it mean it is life? A tree lives for... In your San Francisco there is a tree which is said seven thousand years. Does it mean it is life? To live for so long duration of life? Then the tree is better than you. It is also living. Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty*-two years. Lord Caitanya lived for forty-eight years. So what is the use of living for hundred years? Who is more famous than Śaṅkarācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu? So you live for a moment. But live worth. Then it is life. And living for seven thousand years, standing like the tree, is that life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like the (indistinct) says, "One crowded hour of glorious life is worth a day without a name." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Kalpa*-sthāyino guṇāḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that if you have got qualities, then you live for millions of years. Millions of years. If you have got quality. And if you have no quality, then living for thousands of years like the tree, what is the use? Is that very glorious life to stand up in a place like a tree for thousands of years? Actually they do not know what is the value of life. [Break] ...how people are busy here. And we see how people are wasting time. This is the vision. Brahmānanda: They say progress. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Progress towards death. That's all. That the animal has got also. They're also progressing. The frog, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, progress. The progress is that the snake is coming nearer, kāla*-sarpa. (pause) Not a single instance of these birds being overpowered by the waves. They're so expert. Not touching the water, although working with big, big waves. Wherefrom he got this knowledge? You can study. You stand. Not a single instance you'll find that it is overpowered by the waves. Immediately comes. Spontaneously. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa within is directing. Prabhupāda: Yes. He's directing you also. But these, how this direction takes place? According to your desire. If you want to be cheated, Kṛṣṇa will direct you how you become cheated. Brahmānanda: From Him comes forgetfulness as also remembrance. Prabhupāda: Yes. You don't want to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa will give you such direction you'll never understand Kṛṣṇa, life after life. So Kṛṣṇa has got two kinds of direction, according to my desire, positive and negative. (pause) Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. As, as you want direction, Kṛṣṇa will give you direction. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Insects, flying insects... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Who is giving direction? Who is giving direction that "Some men are coming. Fly away." They have got intelligence, how to protect. (pause) What is this tower? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tower? Devotee: Possibly a Coast Guard Tower. Prabhupāda: Oh. (end of recording.) Morning Walk -- April 26, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...about animals not willing to die. Why? What is the psychology? Nobody wants to die. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will ask: "How do I know that animals do not want to die?" Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. As soon as you want to kill, it cries. Man or animal, anyone. Even the trees, they feel pain. That is also... You do not know that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. They feel pain. You know Jagadisha Bose's pulsitation...? What is called? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pulsation? Prabhupāda: The trees feel when you cut, they feel. There is machine. They, he discovered this. You have not been in Calcutta, Sir Jagadish Institute? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Probably not. Prabhupāda: Yes. He, he discovered this wireless, Marconi's. Marconi took advantage from him. They were talking together and when Marconi got the hint from him, he immediately published. it was his invention, Sir Jagadish. Therefore he invented this pulsation of the trees. and started the Sir Jagadish Institution in Calcutta. So there is painful feeling even of the trees, what to speak of others. Brahmānanda: Even a small insect... Prabhupāda: Anyone. Brahmānanda: He'll run away so quickly. You try to go to him. Prabhupāda: As soon you try to kill or attack, then he protests. And there is feeling also. Why? Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they want to enjoy the material world. Prabhupāda: If you say so, then material enjoyment or enjoyment, material or spiritual, it doesn't matter... Someone: Good morning. *Prabhupāda: Good morning. Thank you. (indistinct) Then every living entity wants to enjoy. And that is the Vedānta*-sūtra. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Why they want to enjoy? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is the eternal position of the living being. Prabhupāda: His constitutional position is ānandamaya, joyfulness, but he does not get here that ānanda. He's seeking that ānanda, but it is being checked by conditions. He cannot enjoy. There are so many impediments. Just like we want to walk. But there are so many impediments. We want to walk on the sea beach but there are so many obstacles. So my position is that I want to enjoy, and nature's position is that she will check it. She'll not allow. Why? Why I am put into this condition? What do the scientists reply, rascals? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't have any answer. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't have any answer. Prabhupāda: That means they're rascals. They do not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So our answer will be because of the laws of nature? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because we are under the laws of nature... Prabhupāda: Yes. But why...? I am against laws of nature. That is my question. Do you... If I am also nature's product, then why against laws of nature? Why? Svarūpa Dāmodara: By forgetting my real relationship, I tend to rule over the laws of material nature. Prabhupāda: That I am struggling. That is my business here. I am simply struggling. Laws of nature is obstructing my process of enjoyment, and I want to enjoy. Why this position? We inquire these intelligent questions. What they are inquiring? They do not know what to inquire. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Fools. Animals. Brahmānanda: Sanātana Gosvāmī also asked that question to Caitanya Mahāprabhu... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the question of human life, that: "I want to enjoy. Why there is obstruction of my enjoyment?" Then the next question will be then what I am and what is this nature? These are intelligent questions. That is called brahma*-jijñāsā. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? These are very minor questions. They are questions for animals. For the human being, this is the question, that "I want to enjoy life. Why there are so many obstructions?" This is human question. The animals, they do not question. They submit. Just like when you slay one animal, it submits. But a human being, there is law because human being is intelligent. So you cannot kill any other human being, you cannot murder. Then you'll be hanged. But they cannot make law. They're lower grade animals. They submit, somebody killing. But the objection is there, both by the human beings and the animals, that the: "Why you are killing me?" But he's helpless. The man has invented some means. So they have made their laws. But both of them are objecting. In your, in America somewhere, when I first came, there was some incidence that in a live store, they got some opportunity to flee away. Then all the cows were fleeing away. And they were shot down. They were stopped. They knew that: "We are stocked here for being killed." So they got some opportunity, going away. And there is always miserable condition. Just like why you have covered so much? Why you have spent for covering? This is also miserable condition. Miserable condition. In some other place, they are... Brahmānanda: It's too hot. Prabhupāda: Too hot. Electric fan required. So we are always in miserable condition. We are trying to avoid these waves so that I may not be in miserable condition by wetting my shoes. So there is always struggle. Nature is trying to put me in miserable condition, and I am trying to save myself or to keep myself comfortable. This is called struggle for existence. They say that the world is imperfect. They, do they not admit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So imperfect means it is not congenial for my joyful life. Therefore we are inventing something to become joyful. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what scientists are trying. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is... Prabhupāda: That means you are struggling. That means you are in miserable condition. So why you are put into miserable condition? Why do they not ask this question? This is intelligence. You are submitting. You are trying to get out of the miserable condition, but you are unable. You are submitting. Therefore nature is very forceful. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass. It is not possible. Then the next question will be: "How we can surpass?" That is real inquiry. Brahmānanda: How...? Prabhupāda: ...we can surpass. Brahmānanda: Oh, the misery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Miserable conditions. *Prabhupāda: The miserable conditions. So miserable condition is called māyā. The answer is in the Bhagavad*-gītā, how we can surpass. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Clear answer. "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he can get out of this miserable condition offered by the māyā." They're eating the wet sand...(?) Again trying. This is struggle for existence. Survival of the fittest. Who survives? Who is the living entity who has surpassed the tribulations of material nature. Where is the fit? Darwin's theory: survival of the fittest. Who is that fit? Nobody's fit. Even the so-called scientists, they are also not fit. Professor Einstein, when there was death, he could not save. He must die. So nobody's fit. Where is the survival of the fittest? Simply struggle for existence. Survival of the fittest means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is fittest. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They were talking about the temporary existence of the material body. Prabhupāda: Eh? That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Just like if you go into the sea and if you want to be comfortable. This is foolishness. You cannot be. You are animal of land. If you are put into the water, however, expert swimmer you may be, you'll not be comfortable. That's not possible. So you are spirit soul. You cannot be comfortable in the material world. You can struggle, but that is not possible. And they are simply giving bluff, "In future, we shall, in future." This is rascaldom. They don't admit that it is not possible. They simply give bluff: "In future..." You see. "In future, it will be," we can also accept that, provided you have taken the proper means. But where is your future if you are wrongly directed? A child's future is bright when we see that he's being educated, he's going to school. But when he's playing on the street, where is his future? He has no future. He's wasting his time. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the favorite theory for the scientists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They like to do things in future. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We say it is nonsense. In future, it is all right. You say, "In future...", but where is your method for future prosperity? That I am talking... If a child is getting proper education, then we can say that he has got a good future. But if the child is wrongly directed, then where is his future? A patient who has gone to the physician and undergoing treatment, he can expect in future he will be cured. But if he's lying down on the bed, and does not know who is physician, then where is his future? He has no future. So all these leaders, they're rascals, and who are following these rascals, where is his future? He has no future. They're all rascals. Anyone accepting: "This rascal is a great scientist." So his future is doomed. Brahmānanda: The blind leading the blind. Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not, he does not know what is future happiness. He does not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't want to admit that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they cannot do at the moment, but somebody will come up in future so they can show. But they don't want to admit... Prabhupāda: So that's all right, but, at the present moment, you are rascal. Somebody when come, intelligent, that is another thing, but you are rascal. So why you are leading, cheating others? That is our protest, that you know that you are a rascal, and you are cheating others to become leader. That is our protest. Why should you cheat others? Mūḍhaḥ. If he says that: "How do you know that I am rascal?" Because you do not know God. Therefore you are rascal. Mūḍhaḥ. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. If you are, would have known what is God, then you would have surrendered to Him. Then you are intelligent. But because you do not surrender, you do not know what is God, therefore you are a rascal. This is the definition of rascal. Jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. And intelligent means one who surrenders. He's intelligent. One who does not, he's rascal. Brahmānanda: We have to expose these rascals. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. (pause) Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhama [Bg. 7.15], always engaged in sinful activities. And because they are sinful, they have been given food by nature: "Eat dog. Eat the snail. Eat stool." Are these things eatables? And those who are intelligent, Kṛṣṇa conscious? For them, fruits, flowers, cāpāṭīs, nice things. Brahmānanda: The swans and the crows. Prabhupāda: The swans and the crows. So expose them as crows. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: The leaders in our society, nowadays, seems that they forget their own present moment, but they're thinking for their children, future. *Prabhupāda: So how they are thinking? He does not know, what is the use of thinking rascally? One can think properly if he knows things. If he does not know, then what is the use of thinking? The madman also thinks. What is the use of such thinking? Now our thinking begins from the Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. As the body's changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly the proprietor of the body will change this body. At the last moment. Death means changing of the body. This is the... Now we can think. When there is proper subject matter, then you can think, how it is, how the changes. You have no proper subject matter, nobody is to guide you. What is the value of your thinking? Like dogs and cats? You do not know how to think. That is possible. How to think, that is possible in human life. So if you don't take up opportunity, how to think, then what is the use of your thinking like cats and dogs? Simply wasting time. The valuable life, you are wasting. Making experiment in the laboratory, nonsensically, that from matter they'll create life. You see. How this nonsense...? What is the use of such thinking? Which is never possible. These rascals are thinking on that, in that way, that they'll in future produce life from matter which has never been possible in the history, past, present and they're thinking; "Oh, bright future." That potter's thinking. Yes. Brahmānanda: Actually, the future looks very dim because of the military. They've created such a military threat with their atomic bombs and armies and so on. Prabhupāda: Mmm? Brahmānanda: The future is very bad because of their military burden. Atomic bombs. This is what the scientists have created. They're thinking a bright future, but actually the future is... Prabhupāda: Very dark. Brahmānanda: ...seems very dark. Prabhupāda: Yes. Idle brain is a devil's workshop. If they're not directed, then think like devil. We are thinking rightly because we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Therefore our thinking has meaning. And what is the value of their thinking? It has no value. Now we are thinking... Just like, take the first instruction, that within this body there is the proprietor of the body. You can go on thinking: "Then am I this body?" So you can think on your finger. "I am this finger?" The answer from the within will come: "No, you are not finger. It is your finger. It is your finger. You are not finger." If I am finger, then if I cut my finger, why shall I not die? If I am finger? Therefore it is my finger. Just like I'll never think that I am this stick. It is my stick. That is thinking. That is thinking. If I wrongly think that I am this body, then your whole thinking process is wrong and they are thinking like that, that we are this body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Thinking is a natural process. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Thinking is a natural... Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got mind. You have got mind. Therefore you must think. But that thinking... Why there is psychology science? What do you think? Why do you go to school, college to learn psychology? To learn how to think. How thinking process is going on. There is education required, how to think correctly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the subject matter of thinking... *Prabhupāda: The child is sent to school just for teaching him how to think correctly. Otherwise, what is the use of sending him to school? He can think at home. Why they are sent to school? To learn how to think. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) This is thinking, when you question that: "I want to become happy. Why I am not happy?" This is thinking. Everyone wants to become happy, but nature's process is to obstruct his happiness. So one should think: "Why this is position? I want to live. Why, by laws of nature, I am put to death? I must die? This is against my wish, against my desire." This is thinking. So how to get out of it? This is real thinking. I don't want something, but something is forced upon me, and why it is so? When this "Why?" question will come to me, that is real thinking. Where is that thinking? These rascals, where is that thinking? How to check death, how to check disease, how to check old age. Where is that thinking? Where is that scientist? Who is making research how to stop death, who is making research how to stop disease? You can manufacture medicine for the disease, but you cannot check happening of disease. That is not possible. Why it is? That is thinking. I want something, but it is being obstructed by nature. Why it is so? This "Why?" question must have come. Then his thinking is proper. That is Kena*-upaniṣad, Kena. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kena. Prabhupāda: Kena upaniṣad. This "why?", simply so many "why's". Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) After making so much research and invention, after all, the scientist's going to die like cats and dogs. Then what is the use of his thinking? The cats and dogs also will die, and Professor Einstein will also die. So where is the difference? Real unhappiness, neither the scientist can check, neither the cat and dog can check. So where is the use of your thinking foolishly? And they do not believe that there is life after death. So far we are concerned... [break] Neither they do believe that there is life after death. Although practically we are seeing, after child's life, there is youth's life, after youth's life, there is elderly life, after elderly life, old life... So this we are seeing. Still we do not believe, that after this body, there is life again. Natural sequence. Big, big professors, they say: "Oh, after this body, everything is finished." And they're planning all happiness on this basis. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) Devotee: Any moment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brahmānanda: It's a shaky platform. Prabhupāda: Yes. All platforms shaky. At any moment, there is danger. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are much bigger this morning. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are much bigger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This morning. Prabhupāda: Bigger or smaller, it is always dangerous. Big fire or small fire, fire is fire. It will burn. That's all. In a... Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given this example: this fire, debt and disease. Never think big or small. They are always dangerous. Brahmānanda: Fire...? Prabhupāda: Fire, disease and debt. How he instructed us. If you take loan from somewhere, interest compounded, one day it will become so big, unmanageable by you. Similarly fire may be very, a spark, but gradually it will so increase, oh, blazing fire. Disease also. Now there is little pain. Now, if it increases, it becomes tuberculosis. So therefore he has said: Never neglect these things: fire, or smaller or higher." They're always dangerous. (pause) There is a, in India, there is a proverb, hīrā and khīrā. Hīrā means diamond and khīrā means cucumber. It has no value, a few cents. And diamond is very valuable. But if some, somebody steals khīrā, he's also criminal, and one steals hīrā, he's also criminal. The punishment is equal. If he says: "I have stolen one khīrā. What is the value of it?" But by law, he's criminal. Never mind. (pause) [break] ...that he'll be happy in that way. Brahmānanda: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of that such thinking, in such wretched condition? But he's thinking. Brahmānanda: If we tell him to join us, he won't like it. Prabhupāda: No, because he's thinking this is happiness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the theory of relativity's everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Brahmānanda: One man's meat is another man's poison. Prabhupāda: Poison. (pause) Śyāmasundara has not started from London. You can ask him to bring my overcoat and (indistinct). Brahmānanda: (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Devotee: How does one practice to keep the mind from being restless? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: How does one practice to keep the mind from being restless? Prabhupāda: To have good association. Devotee: Pardon me. Prabhupāda: If you keep yourself with the rascals, then you'll think like rascals. And if you keep yourself with sane men, then you'll think like sane men. Association. That is required. That is the only way. Devotee: And then, and then for detachment, it's just constant austeri... Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: For detachment, it's just austerities? *Prabhupāda: Detachment, when you'll understand that this is good, this is bad, naturally you'll have detachment for the bad. Unless you know this is good, this is bad, how there can be detachment? When you are offered two kinds of foodstuff, and if you know: "This is good, this is bad," then naturally you have detachment for the bad and pick up the good. First of all you have to know what is good and bad. Then, when you are convinced, naturally you know: "Oh, this should not be taken." Detached, automatically. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Therefore knowledge is first required for detachment. Jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā [SB 1.2.12]. Jñāna, first of all knowledge, then detachment. unless you have knowledge, artificial detachment will not work. (pause) Devotee: There are many that tell about knowledge for being good, but how do you really know? Is it just a feeling? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hmm? Knowledge means culture. Just like we were discussing. This is the process of knowledge: inquiry from right person and take the answer. That is knowledge. Just like a child takes knowledge from his father: "Father, what is this?" He gives knowledge. So you must inquire rightly from the right person. Then you get knowledge. This is the process of knowledge. Brahmānanda: The child also has faith. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: The child also have faith in the father, that the father will give him the proper answer. Prabhupāda: No, no. Faith or no faith. Child does not know that he has got faith, but naturally he's asking father. That is the natural source of knowledge. When you approach the right person, you may have faith or no faith, you get the right knowledge. It doesn't matter. Just like fire. If it is real fire, you touch it, it will act. You know or do not know. It doesn't matter. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spontaneous. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Just like somebody says: "I have no faith in God." So he may have faith or no faith. It doesn't matter. God is there. If somebody says: "I have no faith in death." Does it mean that he'll not die? So faith is useless. Faith is created according to one's sense. It is not very essential. If there is something positive, you have faith in the negative, so it doesn't matter. Brahmānanda: Doesn't negate it. Prabhupāda: No. Fact is fact. Whether you believe or not believe. It doesn't matter. Hiraṇyakaśipu thought that: "I shall not die on the land, on the water, on the sky." But death was there. Asuric, this is asuric thinking. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's called captivation by the illusory energy. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The illusory... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, ignorance. (pause) What is time? *Brahmānanda: Six*-thirty-five. (pause) Devotee: (inaudible) Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Devotee: (inaudible) Prabhupāda: They were still alive... Devotee: ...in a human form. Prabhupāda: Yes, for Kṛṣṇa, there is no such consideration, human form or plant form or... Everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Why you are anxious to know about the human form? Why? Eh? What is your answer? Question: Tulasī devī should be in human form. Why you are asking this question? Devotee: I was wondering is she was alive in human form while Kṛṣṇa was on earth. Prabhupāda: No, no. She may not be. But where is the wrong if she's not in human form? Eh? Everyone is alive, plants, beasts, everyone is alive. Why you are so much anxious for the human form of life? Devotee: It wouldn't matter. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa can talk with animals, with trees, with plants. That is Kṛṣṇa. Do you think that "I cannot talk with plants, therefore the plant should be in human form?" That is your conception. If I can talk with everyone, then where is the difference for me, a human being, or an insect or plant? So there is no such question that everyone should be in human form. Then one can talk with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy. No. (pause) Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- April 27, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: The cloud is, a cloud is darker today. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dark cloud means there is water? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The amount of water is more. *Prabhupāda: Asitāmbuda*-sundarāṅgam. Ānande bolo hari bhaja vṛndāvana. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa's song, yes. (pause) *Passer*-by: Good morning. Prabhupāda: Good morning. And good morning to your dogs. *Passer*-by: Good morning! Prabhupāda: Good morning. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh! Big. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Muscles. Prabhupāda: Another. (pause) The Japanese, they eat this seaweed. Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is good for the fish*-eaters, because it has got fishy taste, although it is vegetable. (pause) Those who are fish-eaters, even by smelling fish, fishy, they'll increase their appetite. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Habit is like that. (pause) Brahmānanda: You once said that the urad dahl is a good substitute for that fish taste. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not taste. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Protein. Prabhupāda: It is containing protein. Taste is also. (pause) This seaweeds, all over the ocean. When passing ship, you can see. All over. Where is their roots? Because the ocean is very deep, the root grows from the bottom? Karandhara: No, it doesn't have roots. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: Doesn't have roots. Floats on top of the water. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hari guru vaiṣṇava? Prabhupāda: Hari guru vaiṣṇave. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Vaiṣṇave? *Prabhupāda: Majāiyā man. (pause) [break] ...any sea*-going ship ? Karandhara: Well, they travel... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Karandhara: It's not really a well*-traveled route. The ones that do travel are usually out farther in the channel. There's a big point. So they just go farther out so they don't have to curve around, all around the coast. [break] Prabhupāda: ...animals, goes like this? Karandhara & Svarūpa Dāmodara: Crabs? Karandhara: Crabs and lobsters, yeah. Brahmānanda: Birds. (pause) Prabhupāda: They have got suitable beak, suitable beak to capture. Yes. (pause) What is this big bird? Brahmānanda: A seagull. Prabhupāda: They also eat fish? Brahmānanda: Fish and garbage, everything. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? If we add the conservation of energy from the invocation of *Īśopaniṣad*, it will be a great challenge to science. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is conservation of energy. Pūrṇam idam, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The understanding in science is that if I burn a piece of wood, that wood contains originally cellulose. So it has certain amount carbons, and a certain amount hydrogens. So if I burn it, that carbon will be converted to smaller molecules like carbon dioxide and water. So if I balance it, starting from the original cellulose, so I'll get a certain number of carbon atoms and hydrogens. So the matter is conserved. In other words, it is not lost. That is the understanding of the science. Prabhupāda: No, we also, we also say. The energy, we take the sum total, material energy, that is conserved. It is displayed again. When there is annihilation, the whole energy goes back to Kṛṣṇa. Yānti māmikām, prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikām. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the original matter is changed. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The original substance that I started with, changed to some other form. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is just like you take cotton. You make thread. Another form. Then from thread, you make cotton cloth. Brahmānanda: It's not lost. Prabhupāda: It is not lost. Brahmānanda: It just changes it's form. Prabhupāda: The original cotton is there. Simply form is changing. This is the process. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it the same from pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya... [Iso Invocation]? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is preserved. Kārya kāraṇam, cause and effect. In the effect, the cause is there. Therefore, Veda says: sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman. Because the cosmic manifestation is the effect of the cause, energy of God. Therefore, in the effect there is God. mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā. "In impersonal form, I am existing everywhere." God says, Kṛṣṇa says. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4]. "Everything is existing on Me." Na cāhaṁ teṣu ava... "But I am not there." This is the personal and impersonal features of the Lord. The whole cosmic manifestation is the impersonal, it is resting on the energy of God, but you cannot find God here. The example is just like a big businessman, he has got a big factory. The factory's depending on the energy of that man, but if you want to see that man in the factory, you cannot see. Is that example nice? You cannot say that the factory is existing without him. It is in his brain the whole factory's running on. But if you want to find out where is he, that will be difficult. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he's there. Prabhupāda: He's there. He's there by his energy. He's there. Therefore in all government offices, the picture of the president is there. What is the idea? Here is also president present. But if you want to see him, then you have to go to his headquarters. Similarly Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere, but if you want to talk with Kṛṣṇa, then you have to go Goloka Vṛndāvana. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (pause) [break] Devotee: Sailboat? Brahmānanda: Oh yeah, sailboat. Prabhupāda: Sailboat. [break] ...what is called? Brahmānanda: Seaweed. Prabhupāda: Seaweed. The Chinese, China, China grass? What is called? China grass? Some foodstuff is sold in the stores, China grass? Brahmānanda: Oh, yeah, I think they dry it... Prabhupāda: No, they go under some chemical process. That gentleman, Mr. Patel, in Ahmedabad, whose guest I was, he's doing this business. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, this can be taken as food? Prabhupāda: Yes. under some chemical process. No, as it is can be taken. The Japanese take it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of the targets of scientific research. They're going to find food from the ocean now. Prabhupāda: There is already food. What is this? You are You have labor (indistinct). There is already food. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're going to find more. Prabhupāda: Why more? Let them eat all the fishes first of all. Rascal, what more? They would take all the fishes and eat first, finish it. Then, then search for another. Simply rascaldom. Simply to take money from the government: "I'm making some research." Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. Cheating, simply. And the rascal government will supply money: "Yes." There is already food, sir. First of all you eat. Finish it. Then you make research for others. He cannot eat all the fishes even. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're called "new food." Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: "New foods." food. Prabhupāda: New foods? Why don't you find out new debt. Why it is old? Find out some new debt. Brahmānanda: Some new sex. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: New sex. Prabhupāda: Yes. The same old sex. Either in the naked club or at home, the thing is the same. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call it "new" because they never tasted before. Prabhupāda: Why not? Taste. Everyone is tasting sex. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is, the food. *Prabhupāda: I think I..., Germany, in the war, they extracted fat from stool because stool is full of fat and hypophosphytes. Stool. So there was scarcity of fat. So they were extracting fat from stool. By scientific method. There was no fat available in wartime. That my Godbrother, Sadānanda, when he came India, so I asked him that: "Your German people, I've heard that German people are very stout and strong. Why you are lean and thin?" So he replied that: "During the war days, there was control. So I was getting fat, butter, simply because we were children." He showed his wrist watch, "to this, this much. Only for children, this much butter, weekly, once." That means under, under*-nourished. So therefore they are finding out fat from stool. And in the concentration camp, Kīrtanānanda told me, actually they ate their own stools. And who was telling me...? Śrutakīrti, you were telling me that in the, what is called? Capsule? They turn their stool into food. Śrutakīrti: Oh, that wasn't me. No. Karandhara: No, they turn the urine, they turn the urine into water. Śrutakīrti: But someone was saying they also turn their stool into food. Karandhara: I don't know about that. I know they change the urine into water. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The urine, you just distill. Then uh... No urine, if it is, if one distills, turns to water. So the salt is deposited in the flask, and the water, pure water will come out. Prabhupāda: So why don't you invent this "New food"? New aerated water, manufactured from urine. Advertise. You'll get more customer. Māyā will give him intelligence to waste his time. Brahmānanda: Chewing the chewed. Prabhupāda: That's all. Instead of saving time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, māyā will give him intelligence how to waste time. This is māyā. Human life is so valuable that one second of this life should not be wasted. But these people are simply prescribing how to waste time. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this (indistinct) thing is inquiring in the wrong direction? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the wrong direction? Prabhupāda: No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're inquiring. Prabhupāda: It is right, but when we speak that the ultimate shelter is Kṛṣṇa, that they will deny. Therefore they're wrong. Just like you are coming this side. If I say: "Come to here," they'll say: "Why shall I go to there?" That is their fault. We are requesting everyone that: "Accept Kṛṣṇa in the center. All your research work will be successful." That they'll not. (pause) Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. They'll not accept one thing, God. That is their business. (pause) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) Jellyfish is also eaten by man? Karandhara: Jellyfish? No, I don't think so. (pause) Prabhupāda: They are meant for the birds? Karandhara: Fishes, other fish eat them. Prabhupāda: Oh, fish also. Karandhara: Yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: Water, they're also composition of atomic grains? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The hydrogen and oxygen, they're called compound. Compound of hydrogen and oxygen. Prabhupāda: So hydrogen and oxygen, they have got grains, molecular. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is called molecules, molecule of water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are innumerable molecules in water. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. In the sunshine also, there is molecules, shining particles. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're called photons. Prabhupāda: Protons? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Photons. P, H, O, T, O, N. Prabhupāda: Oh, photons. Similarly we are also photons of Kṛṣṇa. That is our original position. Brahmānanda: Like spot. Prabhupāda: Spot, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Emanations. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) How the sand is made? According to scientists? Svarūpa Dāmodara: By the combination of, when one atom of silica, two atoms of oxygen. Called silicon dioxide, the chemical name, or silica. But this is existing as a silicate, as a salt of sodium, magnesium, silicate. Prabhupāda: So there is salt in the water. So from that salt it is produced? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It reacts with the sodium, in the water, sodium in the water, in salt, that sodium reacts with silicic acid. So from sodium silicate, that becomes sand. Karandhara: It's not rocks pounded down? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, rocks? Oh... No, we can make silicate very easily just by mixing the alkali, sodium and then acid, is just the reaction between the acid in the base. So forming an acid... Prabhupāda: So far we know, there is this sand, combined with silicate of soda, makes glass. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, glass is nothing but silicate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Finer sort. Normally silicate is shining, but this is not shining because it contains various mixtures. Not only soda, but other magnesium, calcium silicates. Prabhupāda: Silicate of soda is mixed with soap also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Adulteration. That's not first*-class soap. Washing soap, they are mixed with silicate of soda. (pause) What is this cottage? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That small cottage? Brahmānanda: This one there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Oh, a lavatory. Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: Oh, in the truck. Prabhupāda: Oh, in the... Moving cottage. Coming to primitive life. Karandhara: They all have the fashion. Everyone has a truck with a cottage on the back so they can move around. Brahmānanda: Like the tortoise. Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Brahmānanda: Like the tortoise. Prabhupāda: This is new invention? Karandhara: Well, it's not new, but it's just gotten popular over the last few years. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, (indistinct*-Bengali?) Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Bengali) Phala. Phala. What type of fruit is the best? Prabhupāda: Fruit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mango is the best. Brahmānanda: And that dried mango. Prabhupāda: No, any mango. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: No, mango is the king of fruits. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I bought some mangos, but the inside was so bad. Come from... Prabhupāda: Well... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not very fresh here. Prabhupāda: No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't taste like mangos. Prabhupāda: You can, you can try to get mango dried, amsattva. (?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amsattva. Prabhupāda: You know that amsattva? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Dried mango juice. Brahmānanda: In a slab. Prabhupāda: In slab, they're available. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. Prabhupāda: You can try in that Indian's... They call amaut. Amaut or amsattva. (?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Bengali) From Ceylon they get some mangos, but they come in, in cans, with some juice. That's not very good. From Ceylon. (pause) Prabhupāda: Mango is tropical fruit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Huh, tropical fruit. Therefore it's very good in Hawaii and in India and all tropical countries. Because nature makes the sugar inside. Forms sugar, carbohydrate, in the reaction of carbon dioxide and the water... Prabhupāda: But we take it without analysis. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are studying how the banana is making sugar inside by nature. (end) Morning Walk -- April 28, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Kliśyamānānām. It is a very important word. Everyone is suffering here. What the scientists can do that? Future. That's all. Bluff. But everyone is suffering here. That is the word. Bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām, avidyā... Devotee: Kāma... *Prabhupāda: Kāma*-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā-kāma-karmabhiḥ. They are creating a situation of suffering by unnecessary desire. That's all. So your scientific improvement means you are creating a situation of suffering. That's all. No improvement. You cannot. Kāma-karmabhiḥ, kāma-karmabhiḥ. They are working in such a way... Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura also says the same thing: anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jībake karaye gādhā. The so-called scientific improvement means he's already an ass, and he's becoming more, better ass. That's all. Nothing more. He's already an ass because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has come to this material world to enjoy. That is ass mentality. There is no enjoyment. So he's already an ass. And this scientific improvement means he's becoming more attached to this material world to remain better ass. Avidyā... anitya saṁsāre, anitya. He cannot stay here. Suppose, working very hard like an ass, he gets a skyscraper building, throughout his whole life, laboring. But he cannot stay there. He'll be kicked out. Is it not ass? Is he not an ass? He cannot stay there. Anitya saṁsāre. Anitya. Because it is not the permanent settlement. You are trying: dum dum. (sound imitation) Very strong foundation. That's all right. But your foundation is nothing. You'll be kicked out. Therefore he's an ass. That: "I'll stay here for twenty years." Why dum dum dum, foundation stone? Where is your foundation? Therefore he's an ass. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Anitya is temporary, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, anitya means temporary. You cannot stay here. That they do not understand. They're making research, making research. And if we ask them: "What you are doing?" "For the next generation, future." And what about your, your...? You're going to be a tree next life. What you'll do with your next generation? But he's ass. He does not know. He s going to stand before that skyscraper building, a tree, for ten thousand years, and he's making: dum dum dum. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know where he's going. And he's making provision for the next generation. What is the next generation? If there is no petrol, what you'll do, next generation? And how the next generation will help you? You are going to be a dog, cat or tree. So next generation, how he'll help you? Jībake karaye gādhā. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know his personal interest. And making research work. What research work? Simply śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply laboring, what is called? Labor of love? Or what is that? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says: bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām avidyā kāma*-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā. Avidyā means ass, no intelligence. He does not know what is life, what is the course of life, how things are going on. He does not know. The more he is increasing his unnecessary desires, he's making himself entangled. That he does not know. He has to take freedom from the repetition of birth and death, but he's becoming more and more entangled. Avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ. This is Bhāgavata. In one line, the whole material existence explained. This is literature. In one line, there is thousands years research work. In one line. Bhave 'smin. Now this bhave 'smin, you make research. Asmin, in this world, taking birth. So you have to learn so many things on these two words. How the living entities are taking birth in this world. Wherefrom he's coming, where he's going. What is his business. So many things in these two words. Bhave 'smin. Kliśyamānānām. Struggle for existence. Why? Avidyā. Ignorance. What is that avidyā? Kāma-karmabhiḥ. Brahmānanda: Desire. Prabhupāda: Activities of sense gratification. He's becoming entangled. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands. *Prabhupāda: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this... You see. he does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do? And Vedic injunction is: yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you... Just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the statement of Veda. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, then all other things will be known automatically. It is such a thing. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, challenging all kinds of men in the society, so many scientists are coming, so many psychologists coming. So how we are confident to talk with him? Because we have learned little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is it not? You are a qualified scientist. Why I challenge you? Not that because you are my disciple, you are accepting all my challenges. You have got your reasons. You are not a fool. So how it is possible? Practically, how it is possible? Because we are trying to know little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore this Vedic injunction, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati, yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. These statements are there. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then you will not hanker after any more profit. Bas. All profit is there. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābham. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then all other kinds of profit, you'll not hanker after. And what kind of profit this is? Yasmin sthito na duḥkhena guruṇāpi vicālyate [Bg. 6.20-23]. If one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the greatest calamity of this world, he'll not be disturbed. This is the greatest profit. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. A big giant, Hiraṇyakaśipu, is putting him always in difficulty, but he's confident: "Yes, there is Kṛṣṇa." A five years old boy. He's not at all disturbed. Father is giving poison. "All right, give me poison." And throwing him from the hill on down. But he is steady. How it is possible? Na duḥkhena guruṇāpi vicālyate. Guru. Guru means heavy, very heavy difficulties. But na vicālyate. He's not perturbed, not disturbed. How it is possible? It is such a thing, that if you know Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are not disturbed in the heaviest type of calamity. So these things should be given to the human society. One thing. That will make his life perfect. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now it is up to you, scientist, to explain. Yes, this is it. Brahmānanda: That is research work. *Prabhupāda: This is research. Yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Uttamaśloka. Uttamaśloka means Kṛṣṇa. Guṇānuvarṇanam. Describing His qualities. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is success of life. Avicyutaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible. And how it is ascertained? Kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. By great personalities. They have decided: "This is the perfection of life." Kavibhiḥ. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is Bhāgavata. Each word, each line, volumes of volumes of philosophy. This is called perfection. This kind of writing required. Not that I have researched, find out, and after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not right." Another thing. This is not science. This is childish play. I say: "Today it is all right." And, after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not all right." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we find in science. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what we find in science. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is, it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, proton, atoms, this, that, and hydrogen, phoxygen, oxygen. But what benefit people will get? Simply they'll hear this jugglery of words. That's all. What else you can say? Now suppose it is hydrogen, oxygen, protons, neutrons, all these things. So your position, my position, where is the change? Still we do not get any profit by this jugglery of words. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Making more confusing to the innocent. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. One scientist explained to some extent. The matter remained the same. Another rascal comes. He explains again. And the matter remains the same. What advancement you have made? Nothing. Simply some volumes of books. That's all. Just like there is petrol problem. What your this explanation will help? You have created problem. Now you are dependent so much on petrol. If the petrol supply is stopped, then what these rascal scientists can do? They cannot do anything. It is stopped. Now there is scarcity of water in India. What the scientists can do? There is enough water. Why the scientists cannot throw this water where there is scarcity of water? It will require the help of cloud. That is God's manipulation. You cannot do anything. Water is here, so much water. Why don't you make this sand fertile by bringing this water? Fertilization made by supplying water in the desert. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So here is water, here is desert. Why don't you do it? You cannot do anything. They are going to the moon planet, the dusty planet, to make it fertilized. Why don't you do here? Sahara desert, Arabian desert, or Rajasthan desert. And the sea water is there. Bring it, and make it fertile, fertilize. "Yes, in future." That's all. "We are trying." And immediately (indistinct): "Yes, yes, they are trying. Take all money. Take all money." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes. Prabhupāda: Even hope, there is no hope. Brahmānanda: Blind hope. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask any doctor: "Now this patient is suffering. You are giving medicine, you are very expert. Life is guaranteed?" "No, that we cannot do. That we cannot do." "We are trying." Trying, everyone can try. Then what is your scientific knowledge? (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the real knowledge is taken away by ignorance? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real knowledge...is taken away by ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it says: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. One blind man is claiming that: "I shall lead you, other blind men." Brahmānanda: Into the pit. *Prabhupāda: That's all. (pause) And in Bhāgavata, in one word, finishes all... Kliśyamānānām. You'll have to work hard, avidyā kāma*-karmabhiḥ, by your creating so many desires. By this process, you'll have to simply work hard. That's all. Because it is ignorance. You do not know what is the goal of life. So kāma-karmabhiḥ. You desire something: "Now we shall do like this." That means you create another problem. And you have to work very hard. That's all. Prabhupāda: What is the next line of that verse? Anyone remembers? No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday's? *Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) This research work is kāma*-karmabhiḥ. This, in the laboratory, research work, that is kāma-karmabhiḥ. They're planning something. That is kāma-karma. He, he does not take the planning of Kṛṣṇa. He makes his own plan. That is kāma-karma. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. In another place, it is said: When one is engaged in the matter of these unnecessary desires, he becomes lost of all intelligence. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. (pause) It is like the child's crying. The child is crying, asking mother: "Give me that moon." The mother gives a mirror. "Here is moon, my dear son." He takes the mirror. He sees the moon. "Oh, yes..." He has got the moon. It is not story. Now these rascals are going to the moon planet. Why they have stopped talking anymore? Karandhara: Well, after spending all that money and taking a few rocks, they decided there's nothing more to do there. Prabhupāda: Therefore, it is kept for future, or what? Karandhara: I guess so. Prabhupāda: Or they've finished their money. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're trying to... Brahmānanda: They want to go to another one now. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, to another planet, Mars. Prabhupāda: It is, it is finished? The moon planet is finished? Karandhara: For the time being. Brahmānanda: Yes, their, their travels there are finished. Prabhupāda: Simply by taking some dust? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. Just see how much... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of dollars. Prabhupāda: How great asses they are. Karandhara: Billions. *Prabhupāda: You, you work very hard. This rascal government takes taxes and spend unnecessarily. That's all. This is their intelligence. A set of asses. That's all. They have no sympathy "that this hard*-earned money is coming from the public, and we are spending like anything." But nobody can check. This is going on. And they're giving another bluff. "Don't worry. I am going another planet." Brahmānanda: Yeah, right. Another one. Prabhupāda: Yes. "From there, I shall bring more dust." Brahmānanda: Another future. Prabhupāda: More dust. Now you have got handful of dust. I'll bring tons of dust. Don't.... And if I... "Oh, yes, now we shall get tons of dust." The rascal does not know, dust is dust, and tons... What is the meaning? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They believe there may be life in Mars planet. So they are very hopeful... Prabhupāda: If they believe or not believe, what gain there is? Life is here also. You are fighting. This is your program. Here is life also. Here is human being. So suppose there is life. There is life, undoubtedly. But what he'll gain? What is your gain? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're very curious to know what is going on there. Prabhupāda: That means for their childish curiosity they're spending so much money. Just see the fun. To satisfy their curiosity, they're spending so much money. And when they're asked that: "There are so many poverty stricken countries. Help them." "No. No money." Nīlakaṇṭha: Some people are very happy and they think: "Oh, my country has done this. They have gone to the moon. I am happy. I'm satisfied. I'm glad to be an American." Prabhupāda: What's that? Nīlakaṇṭha: Some people are very, the public, they're very satisfied: "Oh, I am an American, and we have done this. We have gone to the moon. We are so good." *Prabhupāda: Why don't you say: "We have gone to Kṛṣṇa*-loka, Vṛndāvana, which you have no information"? Brahmānanda: Then all their curiosity will be satisfied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called "scientific advancement." (pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can we hear a little bit from the Sāṅkhya philosophy? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sāṅkhya philosophy of Lord Kapiladeva? The creative elements. *Prabhupāda: Sāṅkhya philosophy is also analysis of the material elements. That's all. Your scientific research is also sāṅkhya philosophy. Sāṅ, sāṅkhya, it comes from the word, "saṅ*-khyā". Svarūpa Dāmodara: To count? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called saṅ*-khyā, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called sāṅkhya. So, from the saṅkhyā, the word, it comes sāṅkhya, knowing analytically. This is sāṅkhya philosophy. So you are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Everyone is sāṅkhya philosopher. We are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sāṅkhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The, the nature of the inferior and the superior energies... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...are also described in the sāṅkhya philosophy? Prabhupāda: They do not know superior energy. They, they simply analyze the material energy, just you are doing. You do not know. The scientists, they do not know that there is spirit soul. Is it? Do they know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: So similarly the sāṅkhya philosophy also, they do not know what is spirit soul. Simply they're analyzing the material. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just the creative material elements? Prabhupāda: Yes. Material elements are not creative. Creative is the soul. Just like you make something with matter. Matter does not create itself. You living entity, you take them, hydrogen, oxygen, mix them, and becomes water. So matter it, itself, has no creative energy. You keep here one bottle of hydrogen and... Will they make water? Will they make? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hydrogen, oxygen? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you keep here hydrogen bottle, oxygen. Will the combination come in contact? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unless it is not mixed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you require a superior energy. This is inferior energy, and the superior energy comes, mixes. Then the fact is there. The inferior energy has no power unless the superior energy tackles. Just like this sea will remain calm and quiet. But another superior, air, when it pushes, it becomes high waves. It has no power. Another superior... Similarly another superior, another superior, another superior. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa, the most superior. This is research. These waves are not moving by itself. Although the vast mass of water is there. When the superior energy, air, pushes it, it becomes big waves. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the action of force is necessary? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Force. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is some scientists' theory, Newton's? That originally there must be some pushing. What is it? Whose theory it is? To set in motion. Devotee: Newton? Prabhupāda: I think Newton's. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Newton has the laws of motion. Prabhupāda: Motion. So one must give the motion. Then another motion, another motion, another motion. Just like big, big, that trucks, railway, trucks. The engine pushes one truck. Have you seen shunting? The, the truck pushes. Another truck, another, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat. Like that. Brahmānanda: Shunting, yeah. *Prabhupāda: So who is giving the pushing? The living entity, driver. A big truck is being pushed: kata kak kata kak kata kak kata kak, one after another. Similarly the whole creation, Kṛṣṇa is giving the pushing. Then one after another, one after another, one after another working. You see. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is stated in the Bha... mayādhyakṣeṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives the pushing first. Then everything comes, one after another. But His pushing capacity is so perfect that everything is coming out perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. "I am the seed of everything created." Now take the seed of the banyan tree. Kṛṣṇa has created. He says, "I am the seed." Now you sow the seed. A big tree will come out. Big tree will come out. Not only big tree. Many millions of seeds will come out of it. And each seed, again big tree. So the original seed, Kṛṣṇa, pushes. Then one after another, one after another, one after another... So you are simply observing when the things are coming into existence by such pushing. But you are trying out, trying to find out who is the original pusher. That you do not know. That you do not know. Who has originally pushed this energy? That you do not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the material elements... Prabhupāda: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes, immediate cause and remote cause. Another call: "Efficient cause and..."? The two words? Brahmānanda: Efficient cause is the ultimate. Prabhupāda: No, remote cause. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Vedic literature: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know what is the original cause, and if some person suggests... Some... Not ordinary persons. Authorized person. You won't accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists do not know that there are two types of energies. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not know that there are two types of energies... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...inferior and the superior. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically, that the material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac. But if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine. Unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work. So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation, there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement. Just like a foolish person is amazed by seeing the mechanical, big machine. So many parts. But another person knows that, however wonderful machine it may be, unless the operator comes and pushes the button, it will not work. This is intelligence. Therefore who is important? The operator or the machine? So we are concerned with the operator, Kṛṣṇa, not with the machine. If you say: "How do you know that He's the operator?" He says: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My superintendence, the whole cosmic manifestation is working." The difference is you don't believe. I believe. That's all. I take it immediately: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is operating." Therefore I have no problem. Somebody's operating, that you have to accept. But you do not know who is that person. At least, we have got knowledge, here is the person. That's all. Now if you say: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not the person," then you have to accept another person. So present him, that "Here is the person, not Kṛṣṇa. Another..." That you cannot. So in the absence of your knowledge, you have to accept my proposal. [break] Can you create a stem like this in your laboratory? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's not possible. Prabhupāda: No, no. But see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is working. You cannot create even a few grains of sand, and you are claiming that: "We have become more than God." How foolishness it is. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will take the, the matter from Kṛṣṇa, and they will manipulate, and they will claim that they have done it. For example, they can make some, some sands... Prabhupāda: That's all right. At least if you accept that "I have taken this matter from Kṛṣṇa." That is also good. Just like we take. We take Kṛṣṇa, from Kṛṣṇa is coming everything. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will not say that they are taking from Kṛṣṇa. They'll say that they have created. Prabhupāda: How they have created? You take the sand and mix with some chemicals, make glass. So you have not created the sand. The chemicals, you have not created. You have taken from the earth. So where is your creation? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that: "I have taken from the nature." *Prabhupāda: Eh? Nature? That means you have taken from somebody. You have not created. You have stolen. Thief you are. And we say: "Yes, you have taken from the nature, but every property of nature, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Īśāvāsyam, it is all God's creation. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yes... If one does not perform yajña, he's a thief. Yajña means acknowledging that things have been taken from Kṛṣṇa. And we must satisfy Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, You have given so many things for our maintenance." This much acknowledgement Kṛṣṇa wants. That's all. Otherwise, what He can expect from you? What you are in His presence? Prasāda. Prasāda means acknowledging: "Kṛṣṇa, You have given us this foodstuff. So first of all You taste. Then we take." This much. Kṛṣṇa's not eating. He's not hungry. He's eating. Although He's not hungry, He can eat the whole world. Again produce it, as it is. That is Kṛṣṇa's power. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. Kṛṣṇa is so perfect, that you take from Kṛṣṇa, whole Kṛṣṇa's energy, still the original energy's there. That is conservation of energy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a very scientific journal called Nature, the title of the journal is called Nature. What they do is... Mostly they talk about the natural products like the plants, flowers, the natural living matters that we find. But they do not talk about God. Prabhupāda: So they... Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they say about nature. Prabhupāda: Nature, that's all right. You are observing the plants are being produced by nature. But who has produced the nature? This is intelligence. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't think about this. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Wherefrom the nature comes? As soon as we speak nature, then next question should be: "Whose nature?" Is it not? Just like I say: "It is my nature." You say: "It is my nature." Therefore as soon as you talk of nature, the next inquiry should be: "Whose nature?" Karandhara: They don't want to think of that because they want to use it themselves. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: They don't want to think... Prabhupāda: Nature means energy. What is the definition of nature? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somethings which are already existing. Prabhupāda: Yes, they're already existing. That's all right. But what is the nature's activities? It is some power. Is it not? So power means energy. As soon as you say energy, there must be some source of energy. Just like you say: electric energy. So there is source, the electric powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity's not coming automatically. You have to install powerhouse, machine, generating machine. Then the electricity will come. And the resident engineer. Who is the engineer? What is the machine? And then electricity, there is question of electricity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: From *Gītā* we find... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the *Gītā*, we find that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the... "This material nature is working under My direction." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as you speak of energy, nature, there must be some background. Where is the source of this nature? (pause) What is this meant for? Karandhara: Catches crabs. Catches little crabs. It's used for bait. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) [break] Scientists, they are studying... It is called stratum? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Layers. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Layers. Such layers, thousands of layers being manufactured and vanished every moment. And they are studying. As these layers are, they're being created and broken every moment, so all these universal, so*-called layers a few years. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of the tools... Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of the tools that the geologists use to trace the origin of the earth. Prabhupāda: No, you can stress. But I mean to say these stratas? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Strata. Prabhupāda: Strata is being created and vanquished every moment. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the, the background is not solid. *Prabhupāda: No. Just like the one strata is like that. After an hour, it will be different. So what is the use of your studying this strata? Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means always changing. The material world is always changing. Your body. This body will stay, say, for fifty years, hundred years. Then you get another body. That's all. Another body. Jagat means changing. Now this color is there. Say, after one hour it will be white. You see. Then you study this black color. Again you study the white color. Again this black color. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. That is your business. Just like seasonal changes. Now it is cold. Any moment, you'll have to get out (of) these clothes. It is very warm. So these changes are going on. The whole material cosmic manifestation is subjected to different types of changes. Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means going, changing. Your body's changing. Similarly everything is changing. What is the eternity behind these changes? That is knowledge. That, the eternity, they do not find. Therefore they are disappointed: "It is void, zero. Eternity is zero." That's all. And when they are asked wherefrom the zero, varieties come...? Zero means there is nothing. So how the varieties come? Therefore Vedic conclusion, the varieties, there is, eternity variety. And this is only shadow of that variety. It is not eternal because it is shadow. But the real variety spiritual world, is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the material planet, material universe, is a real image. Prabhupāda: Yes. Image. Yes. Mirage. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mirage. Prabhupāda: Yes, mirage. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No mirage is... Mirage is not the real image.... Prabhupāda: No, it is illusory. Just like I see there is water in the desert. There is no water. This is illusion. But actually there is water. Therefore I get the conception that there is water. Water is there, but it is not there. Similarly these varieties is here, what we see, the varieties, enjoyment, that is only like that mirage. We have got the experience of water. But we are illusioned. We are seeing in a false place there is water. Similarly, we living entities, we are meant for enjoyment, but we are seeking enjoyment in a false place. Or illusion. Just like animal runs after that desert water. But the intelligent man knows: "Oh, that, there is no water. It looks like water." Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a reflection from the sand. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, there is no, actually there is no water. But the animal runs after that water and dies out of thirst. Because they, he cannot satiate his thirst by such illusory water. Similarly we, ignorant, avidyā kāma*-karmabhiḥ, we are trying to manufacture so many things to satisfy our thirst of joyfulness, but we are being baffled. Because it is illusion. Therefore real intelligence is: "Then where is the reality? Where is real water?" That is intelligence. Bhāgavata gives: vāstava-vastu vedyam atra. Vāstava vastu. "Real reality, you'll find here." (end) Morning Walk -- April 29, 1973, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: In India, what is going on as "Hindu dharma," it is a bogus thing. It has no meaning. Just like this Ramakrishna Mission, this Vivekananda, this Aurobindo, this Mahesh Yogi, so many others, all bogus. Anyone who is not going in terms of the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult or His teaching, he's a bogus. Anyone. Not only in India, all over the world. At the present moment, the real, transcendental spiritual life means to follow the cult of instructions of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Otherwise, everyone is bogus. They're simply wasting their time. They have no knowledge of spiritual life. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. (Voices yelling in background) What is that? What does he say? Devotee: He's talking nonsense. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... While preaching our movement we should take this attitude. We cannot make compromise with anyone. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Caitanya... Lord Caitanya's cult is to preach the instruction or talks about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa*-prema? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa. This is Caitanya's cult. Whomever you meet, you talk of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's, that is the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is genuine spiritual movement. Or the human society's movement. Spiritual, cultural, religious philosophical, scientific, everything, complete. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa (pause) So you admit these facts? From any angle of vision, if one does not accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, he is aimless, bogus. Unless you are convinced, how you can preach? But this is the fact. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) While preaching, you must have your locus standi, what is your position. And you must be able to defend your position. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we ask so many questions to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we are asking questions so that... Prabhupāda: Yes. You ask, clarify it. Be strong in your position and then preach. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: The literal meaning of sūtra is a condensed statement, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The literal meaning of sūtra... Prabhupāda: Yes? Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is a condensed statement? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is like the... Prabhupāda: Syn, synopsis. Synopsis. Just like in business there are codes, Bentley's codes. So to minimize the expenditure of telegraph, you give one word. From the other side, they will understand. There is code book. This code means that "Receive your letter. The quotation is supplied, that, that...," so many things, one code. You know that? Business codes. There are some stock words. That stock words is simply by two, one word, the whole stock word comes. Sūtra means that. Just like a, just like you missing something, as soon as you get one little code, you immediately remember: "Yes, yes, everything is there." That is called code, sūtra. Sūtra means thread. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Thread? Prabhupāda: Thread. Thread sometimes missing. In some stock of thread, you are missing where it begins. So you have to find out. As soon as you find out, the whole thread is open. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it like in mathematics, in chemistry, like they call formulas? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like symbolic: CH, square root, like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like in chemistry, for example, the molecule of Benzine. So you present it just like six lines, but a hexagon figure with a circle inside, they condense a lot of information. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a code, sūtra. But the chemical symbolic representation, that is understand by the specialist. But this sūtra can be understood by anyone. Just like athāto brahma jijñāsā. The meaning is: "Now, this is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." So this is a question for everyone. Any intelligent man. Here we are understanding everything relatively. Relatively. Just like when I say: "Father," there must be one son... [break] ...truth, there must be one truth. In this way, this is, this world is relative truth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Duality? Prabhupāda: Dual... No, relative. Relative truth. You don't understand relative? Relative means you cannot understand anything without the other. That is called relative. Suppose if I say "good man," I cannot understand a good man without having another man, bad man. This is called relative truth. Is it clear or not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How about the duality? Prabhupāda: Duality, not so expressive. Relative. In relation to other. That is the exact. Why duality? There are so many. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Opposite, one opposite to the other. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just the opposite. Yes. You cannot understand light without darkness. This is relative. Unless there is darkness, how you can say: "This is light"? So opposite, you can say opposite. Now this, this knowledge is there. Everyone knows. But where is that absolute where the bad and good, the black and white, everything coincides? That is absolute. Everything is there. That is not distinction. Everything is there. That is called absolute. Brahman. That means, Brahman means the biggest. Now when you speak something big, so everything is included. Big means bad and good, everything is included. Otherwise, how it can be big? Big means... Just like if you, when you speak of Los Angeles, so there are so many things, bad and good, in Los Angeles, all included. Is it not? So Brahman means bṛhattva, being the largest. The largest means it contains everything. Just like the sky. We have got the idea. The sky means it, it, it contains everything universal. This is the idea of greatest. So athāto brahma jijñāsā means we are now studying the relative truth. I'm studying black. You're studying white. He's studying another, another. In this way. Partial. But what is that biggest thing which includes everything? That is called brahma*-jijñāsā, to inquire about that thing. Just like you are studying chemistry. We are studying Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there is something which contains the chemistry, Kṛṣṇa consciousness and everything. That is called Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The animal life the subject matter, a small animal, he's concerned where to eat, where to sleep, where to find my food, shelter. This is their business, no other business. They're not concerned with the biggest thing. But this human form of life is to inquire about the biggest. That includes everything. So next code is: Janmādyasya yataḥ. That biggest thing is the original source of everything, wherefrom everything has come. How to know that? Śāstra-yonitvāt. You have to learn it from the Vedas. In this way, sūtras are given, one after another. What is the nature of that thing? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). In this way, all codes are there. And go on, searching, one after another, you get full knowledge of the greatest, Absolute Truth. This is Vedānta. What is that ship? Karandhara: Tanker. Prabhupāda: Tanker. Carrying petrol. Karandhara: Most likely. Yes. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Just like we are seeing this ocean. We find it a vast ocean. But this vast ocean is nothing but a drop of water in the universe. There are so many, thousands or millions of vast oceans in the sky. So therefore the sky becomes the biggest. Then again, if you try to find out what is the bigger than this universe. We get information that these universes are coming out from the nostrils of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam... [Bs. 5.48]. Just like with our breathing so many germs are coming out and going. So these all these universes are coming and going. So long it is exhaling, the universes are coming out. And inhaling, all finished. Then He becomes the biggest. Then you search out wherefrom this biggest personality comes? Then you come to Saṅkarṣaṇa. If you come to Saṅkarṣaṇa, then you come to Nārāyaṇa. If you come to Nārāyaṇa, then you come to Baladeva. If you come to Baladeva, then you come to Kṛṣṇa. And therefore Kṛṣṇa, the biggest. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cause of all causes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cause of all causes. Prabhupāda: Cause of all causes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, the two causes, are not very clear. The material and instrumental. Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The two types of causes, the relative... Prabhupāda: There is only one cause. Only one cause. But they are manifested in two, material and spiritual. Cause is one. But they are manifested in two; one is material, one is spiritual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the instrumental is the spiritual? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The instrumental cause...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Efficient cause. Maybe. Which is actually acting. Karandhara: Just like the material cause of the ocean is the rain. Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Karandhara: Or the material cause of the rain is the ocean. The efficient cause, the spiritual, the original cause was Kṛṣṇa because He created the material energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. yes. Karandhara: So the scientists research and observe the material cause, but they don't have any information of the efficient cause. Prabhupāda: Therefore, their knowledge is insufficient. And because they are very much proud of insufficient knowledge, therefore they are fools, mūḍhāḥ. One may become proud if there is complete knowledge. But he has no complete knowledge. Still, he's proud. Therefore he's a fool. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: He said yes or no? Karandhara: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The greatest fool. Prabhupāda: Yes. He admits that: "In future, we shall complete." That means insufficient knowledge. Still, they are proud. That is their foolishness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are proud because they do not see the reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are fools. The same philosophy. The pot man is thinking of becoming a millionaires, pot. By thinking so, he has become millionaire. So these fools are like that. Thinking that in future they will make all solution, they are presenting themselves as perfect scientists. That is their foolishness. Our proposition is: "First of all you prove that you are, you are millionaires. Then talk of all this nonsense. You cannot prove, and still why you declare yourself as scientist?" Scientist means one who has got perfect knowledge. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is scientist. But you haven't got that. But why you...? You are punishable. Just like if somebody is not a bona fide medical practitioner, but he gives: "Doctor M.D.," he's punishable. There are so many bogus. They are not detected. But if they are detected, they are punishable. If you say that: "Yes, I am a student, I am not a scientist, I have no full knowledge," that is right. You have no perfect knowledge. Still you say "There is no God." How is that? You have no perfect knowledge. How do you say there is no God. Eh? They say there is no God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if they admit they have no perfect knowledge, how they can say there is no God, or there is God? They cannot say. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very doubtful. Prabhupāda: Doubtful. That means not perfect knowledge. So how they can say that there is no God. They can say: "Yes, there may be or may not be. We do not know." That is a gentleman. How they can say there is no God? And people are misled. "Oh, such and such scientist has said there is no God. Therefore there is no God." He does not know that he's a perfectly foolish. His statement has no value. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21], because he has posed himself as a very big man, people follow him blindly and they're misled. Karandhara: Like the Russians... Prabhupāda: Oh, they are set of fools. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not believe in God, the Russians? Prabhupāda: No. They are all rascals. I have studied them in one week. Karandhara: They struggle so hard, but they still cannot produce enough food. Prabhupāda: They are simply set of rascals. All people are unhappy there. Unhappy. They cannot speak anything against the government and they have got so many protests to lodge. So many. But they cannot speak. If you speak, immediately he's sent to the concentrated camp. Some... Nobody knows where he has gone. You see the Kruschev, such a big man. Nobody knows where he is. That is their policy. As soon as you are suspicious,... Therefore Lelin... Lelin, Lelin... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lenin... Prabhupāda: Not Lenin. Stalin. Karandhara: Stalin. Prabhupāda: Stalin. He's estimated to be the greatest criminal in the world. As soon as he'll suspect you... You may be a great friend. Next day you are finished. He'll ask his friend: "Now, here is poison and here is revolver. What do you want? If you want to die yourself, take this poison, and die. Otherwise, you'll be shot." So what he will select? He will take poison. Finish. This was his business. As soon as little suspicion. He'll call him: "Now here is poison. Here is revolver. What do you want?" Yes. Karandhara: Their scientists are very proud. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: The Russian scientists are very proud in their working, and they're atheistical. But still they're not able to produce enough food. Every year, there's not enough food. *Prabhupāda: No. There's not enough food. Yes. I have experienced it. You cannot get food as you like. What government supplies, you have to accept. That's all. And that is rubbish, all rubbish. Generally, they supply meat. No fruit, no vegetable, no rice, no, nothing. You cannot get. You simply eat meat. That's all. And milk is available. This is their arrangement. And in all store, lines. You have to ask, even if you want to take meat only, you cannot go and immediately purchase. You have to wait for three hours, control. This is their position. No bank. No motor car. No taxicab. Simply... There are simply symbolic. And people are poverty*-stricken so much that one taxi driver, he was trying to cheat us. They have no sufficient money. So they saw us, that: "Here is a foreigner, Indian and American. Let me cheat." This is their position. Just like India. India, being poverty-stricken, they also cheat. Of course, cheating is a disease. But especially those who are poverty-stricken, generally, they cheat, they steal. No character. And all women are engaged for sweeping, fat, fat women. (pause) Karandhara: Now in Russia, the people are starting to become disillusioned. *Prabhupāda: I, I, I am traveling all over the world. My opinion is that, materially, America is happy. And spiritually some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness. Because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness. So in Russia, there is neither material nor spiritual. So they are unhappy in all respects. I asked Professor Kotovsky to call for a taxi. So he said: "Well, it is Moscow. Very difficult to get taxi." So he came down himself, he showed us this way: "Please go in this way, in this way, and you get (to) your hotel." He's a big man. He knows that taxi will not be available. And there are few taxis only, show. I did not see any store very neat and clean, well*-decorated. Not a single. All old with dust. As if antique shop. The antique shop, just like in your country. I was daily having my morning walk in the Red Square. The most dangerous square... Svarūpa Dāmodara: What square? Prabhupāda: Red Square. Yes. I think you have got my picture. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Many visitors are waiting to see the tomb of Lenin. Yes. They were worshiping Lenin. As we are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, they are worshiping Lenin. So I, I asked Professor Kotovsky: "Where is the difference in principle? You are also worshiping somebody. So you, you have not been able to stop worshiping. How you can be Godless. You have made your God, that's all. Somebody false God." I did not say him also that: "This is your false God," but I said that: "You are worshiping Lenin. We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa." Where is the difference in philosophy? "You have to worship somebody." Now it is my selection whether I shall worship Lenin or Kṛṣṇa. That is different thing. But the principle of worshiping is there in you and in me." He could not answer. What he'll answer? Everywhere it is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that, that also shows that the, there is superior person than man to worship. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. You have to worship somebody superior. Now it is up to you to select who is that superior. But the principle is there. Now so many political parties, they have selected one god. Somebody has selected Churchill. Somebody has selected Gandhi. Somebody has selected somebody, somebody. But they must have to select. Our proposition is: "If you are selecting somebody to worship, why not the perfect? Why you select the imperfect?" That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have to do it. You have to select somebody as your leader. You cannot do without it. So the answer is that if you are selecting somebody to worship, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "There is nobody superior than Me." Then why not go to the best person? Why should we go to the inferior? Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they will choose someone. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Karandhara: For all the six opulences, they'll choose someone, someone very beautiful... *Prabhupāda: Yes. But there is none complete. Except Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's complete. Our pro, philosophy is that we have to select if we... That we must have to. Otherwise, there is no life. Just like you scientists, you quote so many leaders, scientific leaders. Without this, there is no life. So... Just like in the Bengali there is a proverb that if I to, if I have to steal and become a thief, why not plunder the government treasury? Why pickpocketing? If I have to be punished as criminal, as thief, let me plunder the government treasury and then let me go to jail. So this is our policy. So if we have to submit to somebody, why not the best and perfect? That is our philosophy. You cannot avoid submission. That is not possible. Who is there who does not submit to anyone? Find out anyone. If you, if a man has nobody to submit, he brings a dog and submits to him. The dog is passing stool. He's standing. He's submitted to the dog. The dog is passing urine, he's submitting: "Yes sir, you pass your urine. I take care of you." This is the nature. If you do not submit to God, then ultimately you have to submit to the dog. This is nature. You cannot avoid it. You have to submit. There is no other way. Because your position is like that. Without submitting to one, you cannot live. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. This is the philosophy given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately when death comes, we have to submit to... Prabhupāda: Yes, one has to submit to death. Yes. What is the time now? Karandhara: About ten to seven. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We lost an hour last night. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end of recording) Morning Walk -- April 30, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...things of value, they're disappearing. Just like formerly people used to have some dishes of valuable metals. Now it is plastic. This is the advancement. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: It's... Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what they call. Prabhupāda: Rascals, they are thinking it is advancement. And if he goes to sell the plastic plates, nobody will pay even cent. But one of those metal plate, if he's in difficulty, he can get some money. This is scientific advancement. Instead of gold coins, now there is papers: "I trust in God. We trust in God." Cheating, "We trust in God." Take hundred dollars. And what is this hundred dollars? It is paper. "We trust in God." By the name of God, I give you. And it is scientific. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call it convenience. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call it convenience. Prabhupāda: Yes, convenience means going to hell. That's all. It is very convenient to go to hell. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything synthetic. Cotton is disappearing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything's artificial. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Artificial. Prabhupāda: Artificial. And the scientists, they are giving this clue: "Oh, now we have produced something very valuable. Take it." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, when Dupont made the first nylon, it was a great..., praised all over the, all over the world... Prabhupāda: What for? What for? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they produced the synthetic fibers, nylons. Prabhupāda: Useless. And big, big cars. They are charging thousands and thousands of dollars. But what it is? Tin car. As soon as the machine gone, nobody will pay for the tin even. Especially in this country, they are thrown away to the garbage. No value. (pause) In India, we have seen still, they are going on. People stock metal utensils. You know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we use. Prabhupāda: Never use this china clay. Never. No respectable gentleman will use china clay. Still. So if a poor family is in need of money, immediately he can take one Benarsee sari, or some metal utensils to the pawn maker. He'll immediately offer some money. "Yes." So these are conveniences. Investment was in gold ornaments. Still we have seen that so many jewelry shop, silver dishes shop, ornament shop. Still. Every marriage, the father must give at least fifty tolās. I was not a rich man. Still I had to give to my daughter fifty tolās of gold during marriage. Fifty tolās. Two and a half tolās makes one ounce. So what is the value of fifty tolās? *Karandhara: Twenty*-five ounces? Right now that's worth about two thousand, three hundred dollars. *Prabhupāda: Just see. So that is her stock. Strī*-dhana. The husband cannot touch. Then it is criminal. So in case of need, she can convert the ornaments into money. Sometimes there is disagreement with the husband. So she has got some stock. The father gives some ornaments. The father-in-law gives some ornament. The relatives also, during marriage, they present some ornaments. So if he, if she gets hundred tolās of gold, that means at least five hundred...? Karandhara: Almost five thousand. *Prabhupāda: Oh, five thousand dollars. She has got some assets. That is called strī*-dhana. Strī-dhana means "woman's property." Nobody can touch it. Only, according to Manu-saṁhitā law, strī-dhana... Now they are changing. Strī-dhana, the son cannot touch, the husband cannot touch. Nobody can touch. But, after her death, the daughters will share that money. Because formerly, the daughters could not get share of the father's estate. Only the dowry which is given by the father at the time of her marriage. That much. But she could not claim any estate share. Therefore at the time of marriage, the dowry by ornaments, saris. Hundred pieces of sari. If one is rich man. All Benarsee sari, costly. And woman's nature is that if she gets good ornaments, saris, good food, she's satisfied. She doesn't want anything. She'll never become faithless to her husband. So these things are disappearing. Now rich man, rich man's wife, no ornament. (indistinct). Only the widows, they were without ornaments. Any woman who has got husband must have ornaments. Otherwise, insult. So individual liberty, individual prosperity, everything is disappearing. By the scientific improvement. That's all. This is the net result. Now in your country, that... What is that? Draft board? Eh? Karandhara: Draft board? Prabhupāda: Yes. Calling young men to fight. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Drafting... The army? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: They don't do it anymore. Prabhupāda: Eh? They do not do it? Prabhupāda: They stopped it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they saw: "Now we are producing more hippies for this. Only for, on account of this." Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the, the material world itself is very temporary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The material world itself is temporary. So the scientists still make it much more temporary? Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: By investing, by, by finding out the different ways of..., they're called conveniences. So by producing these things makes much more comfortable. Prabhupāda: Easier. Easier to die. They have invented the atomic. Very easy to kill. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa ... (pause) But, in, despite all these disadvantages, if the scientists bring in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then that is success. It will be success. The sea, without waves, does not look well. Without waves, when the sea's calm and quiet, it does not look well. What do you think? Eh? Karandhara: It does not look well? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now with waves it looks beautiful. Karandhara: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that is the property of the ocean. Prabhupāda: No, everything has got some quality and beauty. Just like Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says: nārīṇāṁ bhūṣaṇaṁ patiḥ. Woman, the personal beauty is not beauty. When she has got a husband, then she's beautiful. How scientific it is. All these girls in your country, without husband, they're all morose, unhappy. They have no fixity of husband. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. The woman population is greater everywhere, and if they have no husband, they're very sorry. I have studied in this country. They're very unhappy without husband. Therefore I introduced this marriage in our society. Now in our society see all the women with children, how happy they are. Brahmānanda: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: They have got Kṛṣṇa, they have got husband, they have got children. Now, happy they are. They're working hard for beauty of the home, for the temple. And now last night that Mukunda's cousin sister came. How unhappy she is. Brahmānanda: Yes. You could also see the child. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: The difference between that child and our children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: You could see immediately. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, that girl was Mukunda's...? Prabhupāda: Cousin sister. Without husband, woman is very, very unhappy. Therefore according to Vedic system the father has got a very responsible duty to get the daughter married. It is a responsibility of the father. In the absence of father, elder brother. Now the scientists have given them contraceptives. Don't marry and use contraceptive. This is scientific advancement. And the contraceptive user of girls, they're never beautiful. Natural beauty... Natural beauty's lost. Did you mark it? Between a woman having natural children, her beauty's better than the girl using contraceptives. It is natural. As soon as you check natural system, you become in difficulty. The... Still the system is current. Kṣatriyas, kings, when they are married... You have seen, Kṛṣṇa's father's marriage... So many women also were given. Brahmānanda: Yes, in charity. *Prabhupāda: Because always women population is greater than the man. So those who are kings, they could maintain more than one wife. So not only one wife, another three dozen maid*-servants. They are freely mixing with king. They got also children. But they were not, I mean to say, eligible for throne. Only the married wife's son. This is, this was the system. Just like Vidura. Vidura happened to be a son of such maid-servant. So she had, he had no claim on the throne. Dāsī-putra. They were called dāsī-putras. They were maintained. Just like in royal family, but they have no claim on the throne. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are two scientists working on how to make... Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How to make chemicals for contraceptive. One is in Stanford. His name is Carl Geraldsey. And one is in Harvard. His name is Corey, E.J. Corey. They are quite famous now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very famous now. Prabhupāda: Because they gave contraceptives? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They are trying to make compounds, steroids. Prabhupāda: Sterile. When all the scientists are not famous, notorious. Then this will be called notorious. Somebody has manufactured atomic weapon. Somebody has contraceptive. Somebody has synthetics. Brahmānanda: All rogues. Prabhupāda: Scientists means they must do something mischievous. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately, they're saying that: "In the future, we'll make tablets, scientists will make tablets, just, taking one or two tablets and they will be satisfied, their hunger." So food will be very simplified. Prabhupāda: But the food value will be taken by him. "Instead of paying to the stores, you pay us. We give you tablet." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're dreaming so many things. *Prabhupāda: Idle brain is a devils' workshop. Because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their brain is a workshop of the devil. That's all. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) And without culture men are becoming rogues and thieves, uncultured. Communist movement. Atheistic... Everywhere, nobody's happy. The government's duty, first duty should be that everyone is happy. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Even there was no natural disturbances. No excessive heat, no excessive cold. No anxiety. People are dying now out of anxieties. They're becoming mad, committing suicide, drinking liquors more and more. Just for anxiety. When they cannot solve any big problem, "Bring bottle." Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. (pause) *Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. This is the only solution. (pause) Now śāstra says jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi. There are nine hundred thousand forms of aquatics. So what the scientist says? How many there are? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no number. They cannot count it. When we say, then they'll say: "How do you know?" *Prabhupāda: We have got our process. You do not know. You admit. That is Vedic knowledge. Everything is there. If you want to know, you have to spend so much money to study how many forms are there. But we believe in the Vedas. We get immediately the correct knowledge. Now you cannot challenge it because you do not know. Neither you can know by research work. (pause) Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. The, actually the sea waves, bringing their food. The small fishes or...? Svarūpa Dāmodara: When a wave comes, they run this way, and when the wave goes down, they run down. Prabhupāda: When the waves bring the food, so immediately they capture. So there is no scarcity of food, even for the small birds. And we are in scarcity. The scientist is manufacturing tablet. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're going to convert the wood, the big woods to food also, by treating with the enzymes. That is one of the... Prabhupāda: Programs. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The wood that grows big, big trees, they say, in a few years, then these will be converted to food by treating with enzymes. Prabhupāda: That means there will be no food, natural food. That is stated in Bhāgavata. You don't, you'll not get these grains, sugar, milk. This will be stopped. You have to eat woods. Yes. By your advancement of civilization, you have to eat woods. Brahmānanda: Like a termite. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Go home. (Apparently aside) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: At the moment, scientists are doing so many things. They're having so many hopes. So in about fifty years... Prabhupāda: There will be so much advancement that there will be no grains, no milk. Karandhara: Many scientists and doctors now say you shouldn't drink milk anyway. Prabhupāda: Why? Karandhara: They say it's unhealthy. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. What is healthy? Meat? Karandhara: Meat. Prabhupāda: Do the scientists say like that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm not very sure. But they produce imitation milk, the milk produced from soya bean. That's available in the market. Many, in fact I find, many people do not buy the natural milk. They buy the imitation milk, milk produced from the bean, soya bean. They say that milk contains too much fat. So that makes them very fat. So they want to control their weight by taking the imitation milk which contains less protein and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Milk will disappear. Harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda, buffalo, buffalo milk is as good as cow's milk? Prabhupāda: No. It contains more fat. Milk means cow's milk. If you want to derive milk profit, then it is cow's milk. Otherwise every animal has got milk. And next to cow's milk is goat's milk. Goat. Buffalo milk is not so nice. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's difficult to digest. Prabhupāda: No, they therefore mix with water. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Manipur we use mostly buffalo milk because cow's milk is not very plenty. Very expensive also. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India, cows are disappearing by slaughterhouse. (pause) [break] The scientists cannot make drinking water from sea water? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They can make. Brahmānanda: Very expensive isn't it? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I think in Japan they get water from the ocean. Brahmānanda: I don't know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's process. They remove the salt. And they use the water for drinking. But it is quite expensive. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? If people cannot provide it...? Brahmānanda: It's not free. It's not provided freely. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say when the necessity arises, they'll do it. Prabhupāda: All future. Brahmānanda: In the future. It's going to be a wonderful future. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So so long as the future is there, they have something to say. (end of recording) Morning Walk -- May 1, 1973, Los Angeles Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I drove, so the stars were very shining in the sky very clear. [break] *Prabhupāda: Man*-made rubbish. Although they have got machine. [break] What other things they can produce there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: From sand? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a compound that is called silicon carbide. That is, I think, it is very hard, as hard as diamond They make silicon carbide. I'm not sure but silicon carbide or tungsten carbide. They are used for cutting diamond. They are harder than diamond. Very strong, very hard. They combine this with carbon. It requires tremendous amounts of force to do this, high temperature, high pressure. (pause) Prabhupāda: Anything eatables? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Laughs) No, not so far. Brahmānanda: Future. Prabhupāda: "In future." But God creates so many eatables from sand. Do you know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The smaller birds, they are eating something from sand? Prabhupāda: No, even for man. The cantaloupe, watermelon, they are produced in sand in large quantity. Kharmuja. (Bengali) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lemons also. Prabhupāda: Not lemon. Watermelon. These are the products of the desert, as well as dates. Just like these date trees can grow in sand. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday's Bhāgavata lecture, the example that the hundred dollar bill, one hundred dollar bill. So if somebody picks up and takes it, he's a thief, and if somebody who just does not care... Prabhupāda: Does not take it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's also not good. And the one who takes up and says, "Whose coin is this?" Then he's good. Prabhupāda: Yes, his service is better. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but how about the one who picks up and he doesn't find the owner of the coins but he offers to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, he must find out. Because there are so many men, some of them must have lost that. So so far Kṛṣṇa's property is concerned, everyone knows, "This is Kṛṣṇa's property." There is no need of finding out. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Just like everyone knows, "This is American state." Where is the difficulty to find out? That was an example, but so far things are concerned, we know that, as we know that this land belongs to the American state, similarly this is false. Actually, everything belongs to God. There is no difficulty to understand. You have not created this ocean. You have not created this land. You have created nothing. You are simply stealing. That is your business. So how you do not know that it belongs to God? Everyone should know. This is knowledge. If I create something, I must enjoy it. Rather, the Vedic injunction is that you do not enjoy anything which you cannot create. You do not enjoy anything which you cannot create. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we cannot create anything so... *Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot enjoy anything. You have to accept everything as prasādam. First of all you take sanction from the proprietor. Then you he will give... That is your business. Just like if I want to use this land, I have to take permission from the government, that "I want this land. Give me permission." So when government gives you permission you can use. Otherwise you will be criminal. You cannot say, "Oh, there are so much land, let me encircle it with my fence and I live there." No. Immediately criminal. You cannot do anything as you like with this ocean. Can you do? No you have to take permission from the government. Just like the fishing boats, they have got government permission. Otherwise they cannot. Therefore in the Īśopaniṣad it is said, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ [Īśo mantra 1]. Tena tyaktena. "When it is sanctioned, when it is given to you, then you enjoy." Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. "Do not touch anyone's property." This is Vedic injunction. So if everything belongs to God, how you can touch it without His permission? But they are rascals. They do not know who is God, where is God, how to take permission. They do not know. Therefore they become criminals. They are suffering. Encroaching upon God's property and therefore they are suffering. All these things are stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Everything belongs to God, and because we are sons of God, we can use the father's property. But not more than what I require. Just like in a family everything is father's property, and if you eat more, all the good things in the family, that is not allowed. You must take what the mother or the father gives you. That is your business. Similarly everything is God's property. Everyone, even the birds, beasts, everyone has right to use the father's property. Just like the birds. They will use. Just like they are picking up the small fishes. So as much they require, they are allowed, "Take it." But they are not making any stock for speculation. Man does that. As soon as there is some good harvest, ah, immediately they... [break]... problem. If everyone only takes as much he requires, there is no problem in the world. But he wants to take more. Just like you Americans, you have covered so many thousands of miles. And you don't allow anyone. "No, you cannot enter. Here is gun." What is this nonsense? It is God's property. Why do you disallow others. Let them come. So there is no question of over-population. There are so much land in Australia, in Africa, here in America, that ten times of the present population can be provided. God has provided. But these rascals will not allow. So there is overpopulation in India, in China and other places, and there is problem. They are trying to occupy more land but you will not allow. Therefore war, there is war. So we create problems. Otherwise God has supplied us enough. You can use it; *as much as you like you can use what you have... They are creating trouble and the scientists giving them, "Yes, I am giving you this chemical composition. You drop on the enemies' camp." This is scientific research, to impel the rascals. (laughter) The rascals, rogues, they are trying to usurp other's property, and the scientists helping them. That's all. If you help one murderer, if you help one thief, then you also become criminal. Is it not? So they are helping one another, all these thieves and rogues. Therefore there is so much trouble in the world. They are all criminals. Stena eva sa ucyate [Bg. 3.12]. One who does not recognize the proprietorship of the Lord, he is a thief. Find out, take statistics how many people recognizes God. Take statistic. Everyone will say, "Eh! What is God, nonsense." Everyone will say. Therefore they are in trouble. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura summarizes this fact: māyār bośe, jāccho bhese, Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi, jīv kṛṣṇa*-dās, e biśwās, korle to ār duḥkho nāi. As soon as you believe in God and accept yourself as eternal servant, there is no more problem. Everything is there. But they are being carried away by the illusory energy. Therefore they are under the control of time and nature. māyār bośe, jāccho... Just like these seaweeds are carried by the waves, "Get out," similarly, one who is not accepted... There are other seaweeds, they are not thrown away, but these sea weeds, because little outside-thrown away. There are millions and millions of fishes, they are not thrown away, because they have surrendered to the sea, under the protection of the sea. The sea is protecting them. Just see. Similarly you surrender, you will be protected. Kṛṣṇa says that. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] Don't be worried. I will give you protection. You surrender unto Me." And the scientists say, "Oh, what is God. These are all nonsense, primitive ideas. Primitive." They have become advanced. Therefore they should give up the idea of God. Now India is declared famine. What these leaders will do? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are fighting each other. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is asking you that "You realize Me." "No, I cannot see You." "No, why cannot see you? Here is water. You are drinking water." "Yes." "I am water, I am the taste of the water. Why don't you see Me?" Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ: "I am the sunshine." So who is not seeing the sunshine? Why the rascals says, "I do not see God"? God says, "I am here." But he says, "I do not see." Liar. If you are in my front, if I say, "Here I am," if you say, "No, sir, I don't see you," what is this? Similarly, God is before you in the form of sunshine. Don't you see the sunshine? Why do you say that I do not see God? Who has not seen the sunshine? In the morning, very early in the morning, you see God. That is Gāyatrī mantra. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya. That is the obeisances to the sun. Savitṛ. Savitṛ means, savitā means sun. In the very beginning we see God by the sunshine, and then think of the sunshine, how much potential it is, how everything is being produced by the sunshine. As soon as there is no sunshine, we become disturbed, so many business become disturbed. So why don't you understand that without God's presence, we cannot do anything. Where is the difficulty? Does it require any very big philosophical speculation? The rascal will not admit as directed in the Vedic literature. That is their fault. Otherwise where is the difficulty? No difficulty. What is the explanation of these scientists of the sunshine? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the sunshine is just some... Sun is a... There is a gaseous material, very hot temperature. So the rays are coming from the sun... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but it can kill you. Is it not? So when did you accept with God? Sunshine, if it increases a little temperature, millions of you will be killed immediately. So why don't you accept sun as God? Therefore, according to Vedic principles, sun in the beginning is accepted as God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They take it as a material object. Prabhupāda: Then accept you are under its control. God means controller. Īśvara. Īśvara means controller. God means controller. So He is controlling you. It is material but it is not under your control. You are under its control. So if anything is controlling you, that is God. God means controller. If you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, you can see the sun. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The sun is a product of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, energy. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala grahāṇām. Sun is working under the order of... Just like if you don't see the managing director or the proprietor of a firm, the immediate boss who is controlling you, you have to obey. In the office or in the factory. Similarly, you cannot see directly God, but God's agent is working. Why don't you obey? God's agent is working? How it is working? Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ, exactly in time by the order of Kṛṣṇa, rising exactly in the time, without any deviation even by 1/10,000th part of a second, astrological calculation. Is it not? So how it is working? Under whose order it is working? Śāstra says, "By the order of Kṛṣṇa." Yasya ājñayā. "Under whose order he is working," govindam ādi-puruṣam, "I worship that Govinda." The śāstra is giving you information, that he is working under, he must be working under... Otherwise why it is so accurate, so punctual, unless there is some direction? Unless there is order of God, why this big ocean is so obedient, it is not coming here? Why don't you study like this? Where is the difficulty? There must be some direction that "You Pacific Ocean, you are so big, that's all right, but you cannot come here. Remain up to this." Otherwise why you are feeling so safety although in the front of a big ocean. If the ocean likes, within a second, he can finish us immediately. But she will not do, because there is order. Similarly sun. Sun is also moving under the order. You have to study like that. If you do not see God, see how God's order is being carried out. Then you will understand. Just like we do not see President Nixon. But you know there is direction, and the government is going is going on under his direction. That we can know. This is seeing of God to see how things are going on under His order. That is seeing of God. Just like from long distant place like this hills, we are seeing, but at the same time not seeing distinctly. You are seeing those, but you do not see the detail. Similarly you are seeing God by these things, but because you are not so powerful, you are not seeing Him in detail. But you are seeing God. You cannot say that "I don't see God." How can you say? These are the directions. You are seeing that things are going on under direction. Yasyājñayā. Therefore you have to... śāstra yonitvāt. The Vedānta says, "You have to understand God through śāstra; *" by the scriptures you have to understand. śāstra yonitvāt. Everything is there. The śāstra gives you direction. Therefore human being is meant to study the śāstras. The śāstras, Vedic literature, is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. If you don't consult the śāstras, then you remain a cats and dogs. That's all. Why you are taking so much trouble, writing śāstra, explaining to you? So that you may come to the real platform from the platform of cats and dogs. That is our mission. That is the duty of the spiritual master. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. The spiritual master is the most beneficent friend, he is giving you direction from the śāstra. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau: "He is the real welfare worker for the human society." Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau, rādhā-kṛṣṇa-padāravinda-bhajanānandena mattālikau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. You see śāstra is giving direction. So many lawyers are going to the school colleges to learn the government laws. Why they are taking so much trouble? Just to give people the direction that "You work under this direction, you will not be in difficulty." Similarly the spiritual master is the lawyer. He knows things as they are. He gives direction to the disciple so that he'll be happy. He will not be in trouble. This is guru-śiṣya-sampatti. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. By the mercy of guru everything is... Bhagavat-prasādaḥ, immediately, mercy of God. Oh, it is coming. No. Now, one should study the sprinkler. We'll give credit, "Oh, who has manufactured this sprinkler?" But there is no glorification for the original sprinkler, who takes all the water in the sky and sprinkles all over. There is no appreciation, rascal. You appreciate this thing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The engineers, they'll say, "Oh, we have made this." Prabhupāda: Yes, but another engineer, such a big engineer, he has no appreciation. Just see. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in car) Prabhupāda: We simply ask that you appreciate the original engineer. That is our... (end) Morning Walk -- May 2, 1973, Los Angeles *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently I went to a lecture called "The origin of life." It was given by a well*-known biochemist whose name is Professor Stanley Miller. He was talking about the origin of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is origin of life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said that there are twenty amino acids, twenty of them which are necessary for the maintenance of life, the living entities. So he was discussing how these amino acids are formed before the dawn of creation, and he had so many theories, all nonsense. Prabhupāda: So did you not protest? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Then there was... After his lecture... It was a one hour long seminar, and there was question and answer. So they invited questions. Nobody asked. Prabhupāda: So you did not ask? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I asked later on. I asked, that "Your topic is about origin of life, but you are not talking about the origin of life. So there is no basis of your argument." Prabhupāda: Very good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then I asked, "Supposing I give you the chemical materials, say, the molecules likes amino acids and the big molecules like DNA and RNA..." These are the molecules, which they think necessary for the maintenance of life. "Supposing I give you all these chemical compounds, then do you think that you will be able to put life into it. If you get all the chemical materials necessary, but will you be able to put life into it?" Then he said, "I do not know." Prabhupāda: Then why you are talking nonsense? (laughter) Then? People did not laugh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. No, everybody was silent. Everybody was silent because everybody believes that life started from matter, all the, in the audience. So I said that "Your basis means life started from matter. That means..." He was saying that when the earth, before the life started, there was no living entities on earth. Then I said, "How do you know there is no living entities on earth?" Then he could not answer. Prabhupāda: Just see. Very good. Yes. You have to go and lecture all the universities, calling these rascals fools. That will be our mission. They do not know anything and talking all nonsense. That's it. There was nobody to challenge till now. Now we are creating persons to challenge these rascals. That is our credit. Till now whatever nonsense they are talking, people thought, "Oh he is a big scientist." Now our scientist will protest against them, stop them talking all nonsense. That is what we want. If a lay man like me goes and protesting, he may say that "First of all you come to my level, then I shall talk with you." Now, he cannot talk with you like that. Because you are on the level. So challenge all this nonsense. Why they talk nonsense? So later on, other persons, they did not talk with you? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the chairman of the department, he was telling later on that "About theology let us talk later on." So he dispersed the meeting after that. Theology, they thought, that I was talking on theology. Prabhupāda: It is not theology, it is science. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is science. But he was assuming like that because his business is to protect the... This is outside speaker, comes from outside the university. Prabhupāda: So how do you say it is theology? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was just commenting like that, that... Prabhupāda: So you should have presented, "No, it is not theology. I am talking on the scientific basis." Svarūpa Dāmodara: I said, "Why not think like life started from life? What is wrong in it?" Because he was talking that life started from matter. So why not think like life started from life? What is wrong in it? That is why they thought I was talking about theology, when I asked them. Prabhupāda: Yes, this protest must be now. If they accept life started from life, then they will have to accept God. That is their difficulty. That is their difficulty. And practically we have no experience... We can see life started from life, father begetting child. We can see father is a living man, and another child will be born. But where is life starting from matter? Where is that evidence? Life starting from life, we have got practical experience, but where is the evidence that life started from matter? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are assuming. There is no proof. They just think, they just assume it. Prabhupāda: Assuming, what is that? There is no proof? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is no proof. Prabhupāda: What is their proof? What they go on, proof? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are just speculating that life started spontaneously. There was a time, they said, it started all spontaneously, only once. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But life, whether begins from life or matter? That is the question. You are saying that life started from matter. We are saying life started from life. How to make solution of this question? For life starting from life, we can see practically. Birds, beasts, human beings, they are begetting children, eggs. The life from life, he's a living entity. That we have got proof. But where is the proof that life started from the matter? Where is that proof? Just give one instance that "Here is a life starting from matter." Where is that instance? Anyway, at least one audience protested. It will be recorded. And he said, "I do not know." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, then what kind of scientist he is? So they know that you are theologist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the department everybody knows. (laughter) There is one theoretical chemist. His name is Max Muster (?). He is from Germany. He is a theoretical chemist. Once I invited him to come to Los Angeles to talk with Prabhupāda. He agreed, and but then he told me that he will think for one day whether he will come or not. Then next day he told me that he is afraid. "I cannot come because I am afraid that I will be put on the walls." (laughter) But he is very philosophical. He believes in God. He has some... That's why if you talk with him, very nice. Prabhupāda: So that is also nice. We are not afraid of meeting any philosopher or scientist, but they are afraid. That is our credit. All scientists know that they are on the wrong basis, but because they are scientists, they say like that. That is their position. They do not believe in their own statement. Therefore he said, "I do not know." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because there is no solid background. *Prabhupāda: No. (pause, japa) You and Dr. Rao just make a combination, world*-touring. I shall give you all expenditure. And go to the universities, scientists, and talk with them. Our kīrtana party also will go. We challenge all scientists, "Come on." We shall pay all expenditure. Ask Dr. Rao to come and join. Just like in Calcutta University, all the students... No, one leader student, he came. He talked about economic development, and he said that "Our students did not derive any faith by your theological statement." So I told them that "Because you are all rascals, therefore you could not." I told them freely. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā... Because they are student of Sanskrit. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. "So you are amongst these. You are duṣkṛtinas, sinful, lowest of the mankind, and the university is responsible for creating such rascals." So professors clapped and later on they said, "Swamiji, you have rightly said." All the professors said. And so far economic question is concerned, the birds, beasts, animals, they have no economic concern. Why you have got? You are less than bird and beast, you have created this economic problem. Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Where is the economic question? The small birds, tiny birds, they are solving their economic question, coming (makes sound:) "bup, bup," finished. They are not stocking, they are not thinking of tomorrow, but are satisfied. They have got eating, sufficient eating, sufficient sex, sufficient intelligence to defend. As soon as we go, immediately they fly away. That is defense. They know how to defend them. They immediately understand, "They are human beings, stronger. They may do some harm. Let us fly away." So these things are everywhere, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. There is no scarcity. Only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That we have to preach. Theology... Logy means science, is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Everything, logy means science. So theology is also science. Why they reject theology "Yes, you are talking..." What kind of scientist you are? It is a "logy," it is a science. Why you are giving preference to one "logy" to another? What kind of scientist you are? Even though I am talking of theology, why should you reject it? In Vedic knowledge, "logy" is the basic... Nyāya*-prasthāna, śruti-prasthāna, smṛti-prasthāna. These are the three ways of understanding the Absolute Truth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Logic and argument? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nyāya*-pra... Just like Vedānta-sūtra, it is logic and argument to approach the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now it is the time for inquiring about Brahman." This is logic. Because other animals, they cannot inquire about the Absolute Truth, but human being can, therefore the first proposition is, atha ataḥ, "Now because you have got human form of life, therefore you should now inquire about the Absolute Truth." This is the beginning. It is logic. And actually we feel, "Who has created the ocean? Who has created the stars? How it is floating? Whether there are human beings?" So many questions. That should be solved now. And actually they are doing, the scientists. Scientists means they are also trying to solve so many problems. So that is, human being can be scientist. Not a dog can be scientist. So why not become the supreme scientist to know the Absolute Truth. That is Vedānta-sūtra. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now you propose that "Why don't you accept that life begins from life?" What is their objection? This is also theory, and why not accept this theory? And now let us compare, which theory is feasible. Why you are afraid? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are silent. Prabhupāda: Biased. Rascal bias. Karandhara: They say life is also matter. Prabhupāda: Life is matter, that's all right. But produce from matter life. That you cannot do. Life is also matter or we say, "Matter is also life." We say that. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Brahman means life. So everything is life. The basis of everything. Just like my body is depending on my life. Therefore the whole cosmic material manifestation is also depending on God. So matter is another energy of life. That we practically see. So in that sense we can say that matter is also life. That we can say. Or obversely, we can say, "life is matter," that we can accept. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Matter is a part of life? Component. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this nail is coming. This is matter. But it is coming from life. Because the body is in life, therefore the nail is coming, daily growing. Any child can understand. When this body is dead, no more nail will grow. Therefore this is matter coming from life. This body grows because the life is there. Life is there. If there is no life, the body will not grow. So it's natural conclusion, that matter grows upon life. And because life is the cause and matter is the effect, therefore as in the effect the cause is there... Just like cotton. Cotton is the cause and the thread is the effect. In the thread there is cotton. That is understood. Similarly, because life is the cause, matter is the effect, therefore in the effect there is life. In another form. Karandhara: They say there is no difference between that life and that matter. Prabhupāda: No, how can you say rascal? Then you are rascal immediately. There is so much difference. Then immediately you talk like rascal. There is difference. You have to accept superior, inferior. Just like two things. When you go to purchase something the shopkeeper gives you, "Here is superior." Although there is no difference, but there is difference of superiority and inferiority. That you have to accept. Therefore you pay more price to the superior. How there is no difference? This is another rascaldom. You have to distinguish between superior and inferior. Karandhara: Well, they say it is all made up of the same elements. Prabhupāda: That is all right, but do why you pay more? That is difference. Question is difference. You have to accept difference. Why do you pay more for the superior thing? That is difference. Why do you pay more respect to a superior person? That is difference. Mr. Nixon is also a human being, you are also human being. But if Mr. Nixon immediately comes, we shall all pay him respect. Why? That is difference. Karandhara: That's all on the same plane. Prabhupāda: That's all not. That not all. He is the superior, He is getting respect. Therefore he is not equal to you. You cannot say that. You may say... A rascal may say that "A superior person is as good as I am." But people will not accept it. People will say, "No, you are a rascal. He is an intelligent." Although you have got two hands, he has got two hands, that doesn't matter. So you must distinguish between superior and inferior. We say it is one, but superior and inferior. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in other words, the matter cannot grow without a living force. Prabhupāda: No, that is another branch of, I mean to say, accepting matter as life. We have to distinguish them, that life is superior than matter. That we have to accept. You cannot say both of them are all the same. No. We have to distinguish them as superior, inferior. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why the scientists, when they are trying to find out the origin of life, they are concerned only on the matter, the elements, chemical elements and the chemical compounds, the molecules, not on the superior energy. Prabhupāda: No, there is superior energy. The same example. Just like because I am now living, I am eating something, going to the stomach, the chemical action is going on. If I am dead, it will not. Therefore life is superior. On account of presence of life, the foodstuff which we are taking, that is being divided into different chemicals, some urine, some stool, some blood, and they are being utilized differently. So how can you say? But without life, such distinction will not act. Therefore life is superior. Even accepting life is also matter. Karandhara: They say there is no evidences that that life is eternal. Prabhupāda: Life is eternal? That is another question. That we shall see. First of all, you accept that life is superior. Make solution one after another. Karandhara: Well so long as they do not see that life as eternal or significantly different... Prabhupāda: No eternal, that can be understood by any child. First you have to accept that life is superior. Karandhara: That is just a conventional superiority. That superiority is just conventional or relative. *Prabhupāda: Why conventional? Actually. Just like a child and a teacher, they are of the same. He is also human being and children also, human being. But still, the children are controlled by the teacher. Therefore superior. It is not convention. If you disobey the superior, you will be punished. That superiority is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is explained nicely in today's Bhāgavata śloka that by the influence of Kṛṣṇa, the rivers are flowing filled with water, the trees are bearing fruits, flowers of the... Prabhupāda: That's a fact. I have several times explained that in higher sense there is no matter. Did I not? So life and matter equal, that can be accepted, but there is superior and inferior position. Just like Kṛṣṇa is life, I am also life. Kṛṣṇa is also person, I am also person. Kṛṣṇa has got... What Kṛṣṇa, propensities He has got, I have also got. Kṛṣṇa wants to love another girl, so I want to love. A girl wants to love another boy, so Rādhārāṇī wants to love Kṛṣṇa. So everything qualitatively are all equal, but Kṛṣṇa can marry at a time millions of wives. You cannot maintain even one wife. That is the position. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ, *Vedas* say. That is the difference. He is life, I am also life. All the life symptoms, there is in Kṛṣṇa and there is in me, but still I am inferior, He is superior. And that is the law, that the inferior should be subordinately serving to the superior. Therefore we want to..., our business is to serve Kṛṣṇa, although qualitatively we are one. That inferior, superior, that is the difference between God and the living entity. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I am not clear about the life equal to matter. Prabhupāda: Life equal to matter means the same thing. Just like here you pinch, you feel, but here with a, I mean to say, iron instrument you pinch, you will not feel. Both things are the same, is it not? But here you feel, here you do not feel. So matter means where there is less feeling, and life means where there is acute feeling. That is meaning. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I can understand that matter is a part of life. Prabhupāda: This matter... You can understand by the finger. This matter, this nail, is production of this part. This part is life and this part is not life. But it is a production of this life. When you have cut your nails, you don't feel pain. But same instrument you touch your little, half inch down, immediately you feel pain. So therefore although qualitatively... This is also produced of matter, as produced of this part. But where there is feeling, that is spiritual, and where there is no feeling, that is matter. What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? The human being is the same. But as soon as he feels that "There is Kṛṣṇa," he is spiritualist. As soon as he does not feel, he is materialist. That is the difference. It is the question of feeling. Matter means where there is absence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In other things there is also consciousness. Because there is not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is material. And so far we are concerned, we have got the same consciousness, but Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore we are superior, spiritual. So this material world means this part, and spiritual world means this part. This is the difference. Here you have got feeling. So the conclusion is when you have feeling in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual, that is superior. When you have no feeling of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is inferior. The same thing can be turned into superior and inferior by the change of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So matter can be converted to spirit. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like expert electrician, the same energy, electric, converting into heat, converting into refrigerator. The energy is the same. Both places the electricity is working, but by his expert management, one is heater, one is cooler. But heat and cool completely different, just opposite. That is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate... [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Ah. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. Both matter and spirit, they are energy of the Supreme. So the energy or the energetic*-non-different. But by His arrangement, one is working as superior, one is working as inferior. The same example, that the same electric energy is acting as cooler and acting as heater. But the energy is the same. Similarly, originally the energy is God's energy. So God's energy and God, there is no difference. But by his manipulation one is working as material energy, another is working... This is difference. Therefore originally it comes all spiritual energy, life. Therefore we have to take everything from life, not from the dead. Same example: The finger is first coming, life, and then the nail is coming, matter. Not that first of all nail is coming. You can study. This is meditation. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in any case, everything is controlled by the superior energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That superior energy is life. A small seed of banyan tree fructifies; there is life, and the big tree comes. So many wood, so many twigs, so many things, huge quantity. Here is the proof. Life is the origin. According to our Vedic description, Brahmā is first created. He is life. Not that matter is first created, then Brahmā comes. No. And Brahmā comes from Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu is life, the supreme life. Then Brahmā creates this universe. That is Vedic version. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So life is the origin. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life started from life. It cannot start from matter. *Prabhupāda: No. If you can establish this theory, you will get also Nobel Prize. Yes, try for... Yes, do it. And all these rascals will be defeated. Do that. Their so*-called theory that life has come out of matter... Do this by your education. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Here is life, Kṛṣṇa. Here begins everything. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Kṛṣṇa says. Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything is there. Simply we have to present it scientifically. That's all. So you were the only person to protest against him in the meeting? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Nobody asked any questions. Brahmānanda.: Blind leading the blind. Prabhupāda: That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Anyway he has admitted, "I do not know." That is sufficient defeat for him. But they are shameless. In spite of being defeated, they won't admit that "I am defeated." Not gentlemen. Formerly between two learned scholars there will be argument. If one is defeated... Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. As soon as he became defeated, he became His disciple. That's all. That was the system. Not that we go on arguing for hours, and one is defeated; still, he remains the same. No. If you are defeated, then you must accept the other party as your master. That was the system. As soon as he said that I do not know, he should have become your disciple. That is the system. "If you do not know why you have come to teach me." Svarūpa Dāmodara: He should come and become a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No, Prabhupāda... No. We want everyone to become Kṛṣṇa's disciple. That is our mission. We are disciplic succession. The original master is Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- May 3, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...is that the whole world is running on a false theory that life is born out of matter. But that is not a fact. So how to defeat this theory? That is our business. We have to defeat this rascal theory. We have to challenge all these rascals and defeat them. How it is possible? Svarūpa Dāmodara: By logic. *Prabhupāda: By logic, by science. Anyway, that we have to make program. Because this is most misleading. The whole human society is affected by this misleading theory. We have to make program, go from place to place and invite all big men, all scientists. That program we have to make. We cannot allow this nonsense theory to go on. We must make something. Brahmānanda, how to make this? This is a fact, that, that life comes from life. In another sense life does not come. Life is existing. It is not exactly the word that life generates, no. Life is existing. The matter is generated. Matter is generating, and it stays for some time, again it is vanished. Just like this body. This body is born at a certain date, and it will be finished at a certain date. This is matter. [break] The wood was born at a certain date from the tree. It remains green for certain time. Then it is not green, dry. Then, after some time, it will be finished. Matter is not permanent. Matter is changing. Ṣaḍ*-vikāra. Six kinds of changes, matter. Birth, then growing... Matter grows also. Just like the body has grown. It was very small, pea-like body in the beginning, and it grows. So birth, growth, maintenance for some time, then by-product. There are some by-products. And then dwindling, then finished. This is matter. But life has no such change. When the life is within the matter, it appears that it is taking birth or death. Life will come. One phase of this change, accept. And when it cannot be maintained anymore, just like this body, when it is too old it cannot maintain. Just like dress. When it is too old we change. So these things are there. The matter is... Life is existing. Life has no change. The change is outward, material thing. In all respects we have to prove that life does not come from matter. Matter generates from life, stays for some time, and it is finished. Again begins another chapter. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The original source is life. *Prabhupāda: Life, yes. They are searching after the original source. That is life, Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], cause of all causes. So this is not theory; *this is fact. Now we have to prove it. Then the whole program of these rascals' theory will be changed, and people will be happy. Because they are standing on a wrong theory, all their calculations are wrong, and people are suffering. The rascal Darwin's theory. So many, based on this foolish theory, wrong conception of life. So we have to challenge, protest. defeat. This will be our work. Our worshiping of Kṛṣṇa, that is our internal affair. The external affair*-we need to establish this theory. Otherwise they'll be leading this society. Misleading. They are misleading, not leading, misleading. So we have to stop this misleading. Make program how to do it. Because it is truth, you will come triumphant. There is no doubt about it. It is truth. Now you have to know how to present the truth. That is your business. We are not presenting something theories, concocted by my brain. No. This is the fact. Rudimentarily we have got evidences, but it has to be presented by the modern ways. They are presenting some wrong principle by propaganda, and we cannot establish real principle by factual presentation? What is the difficulty? Brahmānanda: Well, when we ask them, they say, "I do not know." Prabhupāda: That is their position. They do not know. So immediately you have to challenge that rascal, "If you do not know why you teach? What is the value of your teaching? If your position is 'do not,' then why you stand for teaching fact or truth?" Svarūpa Dāmodara: At the present time there are no people to protest. Prabhupāda: So we have to protest. Why we are. We have to protest and kick them on their face. That should be our position. If others are not protesting, why we shall sit down? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why... Others are not protesting. That is why people are accepting. *Prabhupāda: So you protest, write in book. You are scientist. Write in book. Prove scientifically. That will be your laurel of taking the doctorate degree. If you also become one of these rascal doctors, then what is the use of your Kṛṣṇa consciousness that whatever they say you silently accept? No. Just become Babhruvāhana, Manipur Babhruvāhana, that the fighting is faced. Take assistance, you have got. Ask Dr. Rao to come, join. Make plan. Go from town to town, all over the world. This has to be done. There was a poetry by Rabindranath Tagore. The purport of the poetry is that one who is mischievous, he is culprit. But one who tolerates mischievous activity, he is also culprit. If you are mischievous, you are criminal. But if you tolerate mischievous activities that is also criminal. Challenge these rascals. Stop their rascal theories. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The so-called modern leader, he is a paśu, animal. And who exalts them? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: other lower animals like dogs, the hogs, śva-viḍ-varāha, camel and ass. So one big animal is being praised by these kinds of animals. So all the population without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have been described as dogs, hogs, camel and ass. So when they vote for another animal, big animal, so this is their position. They are big animal, praised by the dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not praised by any intelligent man. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are animals. These animals, they do not know the actual fact, and they are passing on as leaders, professors, scientists. Why they should be allowed? There must be some protest against these men. They have no real knowledge. They say, "I do not know," and still, they are passing as poet, er, scientist laureate. Why this should be allowed? Think over this matter seriously. You cannot tolerate this misleading. People are innocent. It is our duty to become merciful upon them, to give them real knowledge. And these people are misleading. There must be strong protests against these rascals. You can immediately write one article in some paper that "These rascals has earned, what is called prize, Nobel Prize, and he does not know." Immediately write one article. "His position is 'does not know, does not, do not, does not,' and he is getting this prize." So they are also dogs, hogs, asses, and he's a big ass, that's all. I have explained this in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Take help. They are creating also dogs, hogs, in university? Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So why this should be tolerated? Don't be a doctor of chemist like one of them. Be really doctor of chemist. They must accept. This is the basic, I mean, platform of scientific knowledge. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ [Bg. 2.18]. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā. What lesson you have taken from Bhagavad-gītā? Antavanta ime dehā. "This material body is perishable, antavantaḥ." Nityasya uktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ: "But the life within this body, that is nitya, eternal." This whole cosmic manifestation is like that, the big body, gigantic body of Viṣṇu, external energy, display of external energy. Make plan how to meet them, how to defeat them. Catch them on their throat. If they say, "I do not know," then "Why you have become professor? Why do you become professor? Why do you become scientist? If you do not know, you learn from me. You become my disciple. I'll teach you. You learn it scrutinizingly with all your knowledge. We shall teach you. Why you evade?" Just the other professor, he does not like to come. Other scientist, he told? Brahmānanda: The German scientist, he didn't want to come. Prabhupāda: Why he avoids? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was thinking carefully and decided that he cannot defend what he has in his mind. *Prabhupāda: We are not ordinary, the so*-called swamis and sādhus. We are going to give to the world something which they forgot. I told this in London airport. Yes. That was published in the papers. They asked me, "Why you have come to London?" And "Because to teach you something which you have forgotten." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it before Prabhupāda came here. Brahmānanda: In London. *Prabhupāda: In London. Here also I told in New York, "To make you intelligent. You are all fools and rascals." Yes, they are fools and rascals because they do not know what he is. He is thinking, "I am this body." So anyone who is thinking, "I am this body," he is an ass. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the basis that life started from matter. They are thinking that this is the body. Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to make very strong propaganda against this theory. Otherwise if you sleep only and take doctorate title, what is the use? You have to fight against these rascals. Make your soldier's party and start fighting against these rascals. No more toleration. No more silence. What is that sound? Brahmānanda: Oh, it's a power saw. They are going to cut the wood. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we publish that the original source is life, then everybody has to accept it that the... Everybody has to accept Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our program. As soon as they agree, "Yes, life is...," then they have to accept Kṛṣṇa automatically. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. [break] Some of them are thinking that this is a saṅkīrtana party. We are saṅkīrtana party, undoubtedly. But they may not think "They are sentimentalists." They must know that we are scientists. Everywhere is the direction. These high waves, this big Pacific Ocean, they are also carrying out the direction of that Supreme life. Just like this airplane is floating. Is it floating without any direction? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is direction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So everything is working under direction. Why do the rascals say like that? The aeroplane is a big machine. It is flying, but under the direction of a small spiritual spark, the driver, pilot. How you can deny? So as the small spiritual spark can direct a so*-called gigantic plane, similarly, the big spiritual spark is directing this whole cosmic manifest... What is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Without that spiritual spark, that airplane can be operated." You cannot say. That is not possible. You prove that "Without that spiritual small spark, this big 747 aeroplane will..." You cannot prove that. Where is your proof? You have to put that small spiritual spark. First of all the pilot body. Now, within that body, Kṛṣṇa says, asmin dehe, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ, tathā dehāntaram [Bg. 2.13]. There is dehinaḥ. There is a proprietor of this body. So that proprietor is 1/10,000th part of the tip of the hair, very, very, small, atomic. On account of that atomic spiritual energy, there is working. This is bare fact. That small atomic spiritual energy is within this body, and therefore the body is working, and therefore the plane is working. Where is the difficulty to understand? Now, this man thinks himself very stout and strong, but why he is stout and strong? On account of that small spiritual spark is there. As soon as the small spiritual spark is gone, stout and strong has no meaning. Immediately all the birds will come. Vultures will come and eat him, eat the body. Immediately. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the spirit goes out, the other living entities are not afraid of anymore. Prabhupāda: No. Means he is finished. He is finished. That prayer was Kuntī's. That "If you go away, then where is... Everything will be finished. Now they are looking so nice." Brahmānanda: Oh. Similarly... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...if the soul leaves the body... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: It looks nice... Prabhupāda: But as soon as gone, everything is finished. Why these rascals do not know? Why they cannot replace with chemicals to bring life again? Why these rascals are accepted, I do not know. If the matter is the cause of origin of life... Now one dead man, such a big man, such a Professor Einstein, big brain, he is dying. Put another chemical. Let him come back to life and work again. So why these rascals talk like this? You cannot protest? You should protest. Your protest will be accepted because our, they say that "You are not scientist. We cannot talk with you." That's all right. But here is a scientist. Talk with him. Where is your that material chemical by injecting which...? What do they say? What is wanting in the dead body that the body is dead? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they do not know. Prabhupāda: Then there are so many things they do not know. Still, they are scientists? And they are passing on as leaders of the society. Everything is "I do not know," and he is a leader, scientist. What is this? A child, and he is passing on as teacher. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes the problem is too serious. They take it just lightly. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. The same thing, that the rabbits close the eyes. Yes. Monkeys. And when the monkeys face a tiger, immediately he closes his eyes and the tiger immediately attacks him. So it is like that. He cannot solve the problem-"All right, let it go on." And that is the position. Because our real problem is death. Nobody wants to die. So the scientist cannot give any relief from death. They are talking simply superficially. They cannot give any relief from death. But my real problem is death. I do not wish to die. I do not wish to become old man. What scientists can help me? I do not wish to become diseased. What the scientist can help me? I do not wish to take birth. These things, they cannot do anything. Major problem they have set aside. And they are, what is called, jackal. Yes. There is a story of the jackal. He became the king of the forest. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hindi Brahmānanda: That is Watergate affair. Prabhupāda: Watergate? Brahmānanda: It is called the Watergate scandal. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that Watergate? Brahmānanda: Well, that was the place where the headquarters of the Democratic party were. It's called Watergate. And the big, big important men... Prabhupāda: They were being bribed. Brahmānanda: Well, they went to put tape recorder devices so they know what the opposite party is doing. Prabhupāda: Who is that? Brahmānanda: The Republicans. Prabhupāda: Oh, Republicans. Who is in power now? Brahmānanda: Well, Nixon. He is Republican. Prabhupāda: He is Republican. Brahmānanda: They haven't traced it to him yet, but all his chief aides, they have all been implicated. It was during the election. Prabhupāda: Oh. So therefore they are defeated. Brahmānanda: Yeah. They knew what the Democrats were doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. This position is at the present moment, no honest man can become a government officer, everywhere. Unless he is a rogue, dishonest person, he cannot maintain his governmental position. Therefore no noble man is going to the government. But what you can do? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Politicians are the greatest cheaters. Prabhupāda: Yes. Scoundrel. Some philosopher said that "Politics is the last place of the scoundrel. That is their last resort." In India we see same thing. Harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. So design some means how to fight with these... (end) Morning Walk -- May 4, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: We have to teach life from life, not from matter. Just against. And if you come out... Not if. You must. Because we are standing on truth. They are standing on untruth. Brahmānanda: One police car is coming. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Police: Good morning. Prabhupāda: Good morning. That is police car? Brahmānanda: No, he's the engineer I think. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma, harer nāma, harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Sattvam... There is an Indian government slogan, sattvam eva... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sattvam eva jayate. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is sattvaṁ jayate. It must come out triumphant. We have to try for... How foolishly they are propagating a false theory, and amongst themselves self*-complacent, getting prize, eulogization. What is this nonsense? Expose them. Bluffing. The bluffing should be exposed. What you are doing here? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What they are doing here? Śrutakīrti: I think they have been taking out those posts from the sand. A little dangerous. Prabhupāda: Dangerous, why? Śrutakīrti: When the water covers them, they can't be seen. Someone can get hurt on them. Prabhupāda: So many dangers. [break] So there are no more talks in your... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, there is a talk coming next week. There is a lecturer coming next week. He's slightly connected with evolution. He's a Nobel Prize winner. He's from Berkeley. He's coming next week, next Wednesday. He is going to give two lectures in our department. He is going to talk on evolution. The first lecture. Prabhupāda: Darwin. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, evolution in general. And second lecture is on cancer, the causes of cancer disease. Brahmānanda: Do they know the cause of cancer? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, there are several theories. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Suppose he knows the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Neither he can stop cancer, neither a man suffering from cancer, if it is cured, he will live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot check death. The death may be caused, if not cancer, simply by accident you can die. The real scientific research should be how to stop death. That is real scientific. That we are giving. To find out some medicine for some disease, that is not triumph. Real triumph is how to stop disease. That they cannot. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā puts before you the real trouble is this birth, death, old age and disease. That process we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. After giving up this body, no more acceptance of material body. This is real science. [break] ...suffer from cancer. (laughter) They don't suffer from cancer. So they are in better position than the so-called human society. They are creating causes of cancer disease and then making research and taking Nobel Prize. How foolish society it is, this. Why you create the cause of cancer disease? You accept these four principles of life-no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex-there will be no cancer. There will be no cancer. You find out, those who are strictly on this line, they never suffer from cancer or any disease. Now take for example, me. I have come here in this country for the last seven years, 1965, and it is 1973, eight years. How many times I have gone to doctor? That once that heart attack. That is serious; that is another thing. Otherwise generally how many times I have gone to? I don't pay any bill of doctors. So if we live very hygienic life, regulated life, there is no question of cancer or any disease. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The disease is created... Prabhupāda: Yes, they create. By violating the nature's law, disease is created. Brahmānanda: Their whole idea is that they want to violate the law but not suffer for it. That is the whole basis of their research work. *Prabhupāda: But actually they suffer. Actually they suffer. Now, what is this research work? This is suffering, spending so much hard*-earned money. So one of the cause of, I can say, one of the cause of cancer disease is this contraceptive method. You can make research on it. This is very dangerous stipulation, to use contraceptives. So they are, one side, discovering contraceptive medicine, contraceptive chemical; another side researching for cancer disease. And they say also that smoking is also one of the causes, smoking. So why do you not give up smoking? Smoking, illicit sex, contraceptive method. *Brahmānanda: From the meat*-eating comes the heart disease. *Prabhupāda: From meat*-eating? Brahmānanda: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just see. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. So we have different variegatedness in the material world, different living entities, plants, animals. Prabhupāda: Without the inconvenience. Mean, in the material world there are so many inconveniences. So spiritual world, there is no inconvenience. Inebriety. It is a reflection of the spiritual world, but there are so many difficulties here. Therefore it is called material world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, my question being, so they have all the variegatedness in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Yes there are trees, there are water, birds, beasts, but they are all spiritual. Just like here everything is material. Here water is working according to the material laws. In the spiritual world if I say, "Please come here," he will come here. That is spiritual world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the difference is that the spiritual... Prabhupāda: Everything spiritual... As here everything is material, there everything is spiritual. Now try to understand what is matter, what is spirit. Spirit, as I was explaining yesterday, the spirit is the conductor, operator, of the aeroplane. So matter is working under the guidance of spirit. So there everything being spirit, there is no necessity of another spiritual guidance. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we have in this material world we have the evolution. Prabhupāda: No, there is no evolution because there is no birth. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, in the material world. Prabhupāda: Material world, there is evolution because there is birth. But in the spiritual world there is no birth. Birth, death, old age, disease, these things are not there. There is no question of evolution. Evolution means to transmigrate from one body to another. But there is no such thing. Everyone is eternal. There is no death, there is no transmigration. This is botheration. Therefore spiritual world means all the varieties of the material world, less botheration, minus botheration. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the Vaikuṇṭha planets... Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had so many girlfriends. There are so many nice descriptions of embracing, kissing, but there is no pregnancy or abortion. There is no description of such things. And that is spiritual world. The attraction for young boy, young girl is there also. They are also enjoying their company. Everything is there. But there is no such thing as pregnancy and abortion. Here people do not want that, pregnancy and abortion. But they are forced to do it because there are so many inebrieties here. That thing is minus in the spiritual world. They are also attracted by the bodily features of the women. There is attraction, but they are more attracted by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Therefore this bodily attraction of woman does not affect them. Just like if you have got better attraction, you don't care for the lower attraction. The attractions are there. The body of the woman is very beautiful. But men are not so much attracted with the body of the woman. They are more attracted to Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. These are described in the Bhāgavata. Here also, practically we see, those who are attracted by the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they are not very much attracted with the bodily features of the women. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So attraction is there, but better attraction. Life is there, better life. Everything better, superior. Superior energy. Brahmānanda: You've, said that our society ISKCON is like a sample of the spiritual world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brahmānanda: We develop our attraction for Hare Kṛṣṇa; we lose our attraction for sex life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktiḥ... That is the sign of advancement of bhakti. If you don't be... I was explaining this. If you don't be detached to these material things, then you should know that you are not advancing in spiritual life. If you have got still attachment for these nonsense material things, that means you are not advanced. Just like if you are eating, and if you are not getting health, that means you are eating nonsense. Eating must result in good health. That is eating. Eating does not mean to fill up the belly with all rubbish things. Eating means that you become healthy, nice eating. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Understanding that in the spiritual world... In the Vaikuṇṭha planets, we get that all the inhabitants are four*-handed forms of Nārāyaṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, exactly like Nārāyaṇa. Their bodily features... Just like here, you cannot distinguish by the bodily feature who is President Nixon, who is a common man. You cannot distinguish by the bodily feature. Similarly, there also, you cannot distinguish who is a common man and who is Personality of Godhead. They are like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still, there are plants and all the living entities in the Vaikuṇṭha... *Prabhupāda: They know. Because they have full knowledge, "He knows here is God. Although he is four-handed, I am four-handed, but here is God." Because there is full knowledge. That is the difference. Here we are selecting some rascal as God, because we have no full knowledge. There, in the Vaikuṇṭha planets, although the common citizens and God is of the same feature of the bodily, but they know, "Here is God, the Supreme." He has got special signs in the... Yes, that's all. Just like the king or the president, we may make mistake. We may accept somebody as "Here is president." No. But the associates of the president, he knows. They know that "Here is president." Similarly, there is no question of mistake there. Four kinds of defects of material life*-to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat, and imperfection of the senses-these things are not there. Everyone's senses are perfect. When he sees God, he sees perfectly. He does not mistake. He is not illusioned. And there is no cheating and there is no imperfection of the senses. There is no mistake. These are spiritual life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So all the living entities are completely satisfied. *Prabhupāda: Certainly. Because they are in the spiritual life. That is real life. Here it is covered. There is no such season as winter season, as summer season. Always spring. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12), simply ānanda, blissful life of knowledge. What do they know, the scientists, about the spiritual life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is no..., *Prabhupāda: No information, no research. That kūpa*-maṇḍūka, this frog in the well. That's all. They have no information of the Pacific Ocean. They are researching within the well. That's all. They have no information even of this material world. What do they know about the so many planets, so many, huge outer space? What do they know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Almost nothing. Prabhupāda: Nothing. Not even of this planet, what to speak of other planets. And still, they are proud. "Nobel Prize." Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they know that there is definitely a blissful world, spiritual world, they would not work this hard. Prabhupāda: Yes, why? Just like Lomaśa Muni. Lomaśa Muni, his duration of life is that when one Brahmā dies, one hair from the body falls. So in this way, when all the hairs of his body will fall down, he will die. He has such a great length of... So he was standing on the side of a sea and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Nārada Muni approached him, "Why don't you make a small cottage here?" He said, "How long I shall live? (laughter) Ah, standing will do. Let me finish my bead...(?)" Just see. And here they'll live for twenty years and making skyscraper building, (makes sound:) "Doc, dong, doc, dong, doc, dong." (laughter) Does not calculate that "I shall live for twenty or thirty years." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is not guaranteed also. *Prabhupāda: That is also not guaranteed. Why I am taking so much trouble? They are so foolish persons. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jīvake karaye gādhā. This so*-called scientific education means people become more attracted with this temporary world and he works very hard, just like an ass. Ass, the example of ass is because the ass does not know what is his interest, but works very hard. Therefore ass example is given. Ass, he carries the washerman's cloth, tons, but not a single cloth belongs to him. He is naked. And still he is working. He does not know, "Why I am working for the washerman, carrying so much load?" That sense he hasn't got. He thinks that "Washerman gives me to eat some grasses." Although grasses are all over. That is ass. That is ass. So these scientific research workers, they are asses. He does not know that "I shall live for thirty years. So what is the use of my research work?" But intelligent man will say, "Let me utilize this thirty years to prepare for my next life." That is intelligence. But they. But they have no idea of the next life. (pause) Again, Switzerland. Svarūpa Dāmodara: London is also like this. Prabhupāda: Yes, London, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The smell we are getting now from burning the gas or coal is also one of the causes of cancer. The hydro*-carbons. Prabhupāda: Yes, the artificial life is the cause of all diseases. And they won't accept our natural life. That they think primitive, "We must advance." What is your advancement? Primitive life was also subjected to death. You are also subjected to death. So where is your advancement? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Advancement in decorating the dead body. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, yes. Decorating a dead body, yes. So this is another foolishness. (loud sound of a chain*-saw in the background) First of all they pin all these logs. Now they are cutting. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. And millions of dollars will be spent for this purpose. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have so many plans, one after another. Never stop. Prabhupāda: Restlessness. Not fixed up. What they are doing here? Brahmānanda: They want to break these posts to dig this hole. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a very big..., quite deep. I think they are digging so they can take this out. This is called technological advancement. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, to work foolishly. [break] 6:37. Is that all right? What is your time? Brahmānanda: 6:34. Prabhupāda: Oh, little slow. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I am writing a letter to Rāmānanda Prabhu... Prabhupāda: Yes, come and join. Let us do some service to Kṛṣṇa. What is the value of our education? Earning money, that also ordinary porter also... They are also earning more than that, than scientists, these men? Brahmānanda: Oh yeah. Prabhupāda: What do they charge per day? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are getting much more than the normal scientist because manual labor is very expensive here. Brahmānanda: About seven, eight dollars an hour or something like that? Prabhupāda: And they work for how many hours? *Brahmānanda: Eight hours. So fifty*-six dollars, or fifty dollars per day. Who can earn, the scientists, fifty dollars? *Devotee: The brick*-layers get a hundred dollars a day. Prabhupāda: Just see. So why don't you become a brick layer instead of scientist? (laughter) You get more money. Dr. Bose, he called me... I told you. He asked me, "What you are doing?" "Now, I am going to the share market." So he immediately said, "Then what is the value of your education if you are going to the share market like the Marwaris who are illiterate?" Share market means to have some tricks how to sell and purchase shares. That by practicing anyone can do. It is not very difficult. [break] ... life from life. Make vigorous propaganda. Let them come to argument, scientific discussion. (pause) The man and woman in your country, they have got equal rights. Why not here? (laughter) In the lavatory? Why this discrimination, "woman," "man," why? Equal rights, must be equal rights. (pause) What is the basic philosophy for contraceptive action? Why do they prefer contraceptive method? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their point being to reduce the population, not to increase. Prabhupāda: But population is reducing, it is increasing. You take the statistics, the world population is increasing, it is not decreasing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is increasing, but not as fast as the... Prabhupāda: Anyway it is increasing; *it is not decreasing. And besides that, there is no such restriction among the birds and beasts. How you can make more for... A cat, a dog, a hog, this birth*-one dozen children at a time. And twice in a year. So increasing population is more there, they have got more capacity. So they are not fasting. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that because of our medical science, the number of deaths are decreasing. The number of births are increasing and death the rate is decreasing because of medical science. Prabhupāda: Due to medical science, death is...? Brahmānanda: Decreasing. People are living longer. *Prabhupāda: It is all nonsense. Who lives now hundred years. Thirty, forty, fifty, finished. It is another nonsense. At the present age, does anybody live like his grandfather? No. No. That's not a fact. At the present moment the maximum years*-eighty years. Formerly they were living a hundred years. My grandmother lived for ninety-six years. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They take a statistical average, they call. That means the average number of people living now, they have longer lives, on the average. Prabhupāda: Average duration of life in India is thirty years. Thirty years. It has decreased. (end) Morning Walk -- May 5, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: This cloud is for rain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was raining a little bit when I came, in the south, towards Laguna Beach, it was raining. And when I came this side, it was very clear. Prabhupāda: You approach the United Nations also. What they are doing? Simply wasting money. What is their aim and object, United Nations? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Peaceful co*-existence, cooperation among different nations. Prabhupāda: So what they have done so far? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nothing. Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda: Many speeches. *Prabhupāda: Peaceful co*-existence is this, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Brahmānanda: They did not do anything. These posts are still here. Śrutakīrti: They are finding it very difficult. (pause) Prabhupāda: What they are doing there? Something aimless. (some noise of people yelling a distance away) [break] ...because frogs never come to the... You will never find a frog in the ocean. Did you mark it? Brahmānanda: No. Prabhupāda: You have got so many animals but never a frog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Maybe they don't like the salt. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, frog is conspicuous by absence. There is no frog. Therefore that example is given. They have never seen what is the ocean. (laughs) So all these scientists, they are frogs. They have never seen what is the kingdom of God. Therefore this example, "Doctor Frog." Doctor frog is never visible in the ocean. They are visible only within this circle, well. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This example is available in *Bhāgavatam*, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in nyāya-śāstra. Kūpa*-maṇḍūka-nyāya. Kūpa means well, and maṇḍūka means frog. "The frog in the well." The frogs, sometimes they are in river also, in bank of the rivers. But never in the ocean. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The environment is not suitable. They are fresh water species. Prabhupāda: Well, they are also aquatics. They also live in water. But they are unfit for living in ocean water. So many varieties of life, different living entities meant for different purposes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to the desire of the... *Prabhupāda: According to the desire of the living entity. All facilities, whatever you want, you can have. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Another logic is bakāṇḍa*-nyāya. Bakāṇḍa. Baka and aṇḍa. Baka, the duck. And aṇḍa, the testicle, testicle of the bull. The bull is going and the testicle is hanging, and the duck is after it. He is thinking here is a fish. You find him always going...when it will drop. Bakāṇḍa. This is nature's study. [break] The baka, the duck, they are after fish. So the testicle is hanging, he's thinking it's a big fish, it will drop now. So it will never drop but he is going after it. Just see. Neither it is fish. Another logic is āja-gala-stana, āja-gala-stana. You have seen on the goats in the neck, just like nipples. If one is expecting milk from that nipple, he is also fool. It is not nipple but it looks like nipple. Āja-gala-stana-nyāya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the mirage in the desert. *Prabhupāda: Yes, illusion, these are illusions. Āja*-gala-stana-nyāya is applied for these rascals, those who are thinking that from matter life is coming. Exactly the same. They are thinking that here are nipples, there will milk come. Let us milk here. Brahmānanda: But they are not getting, they are saying maybe in the future. Prabhupāda: Yes, in future, yes. (laughter) In Sanskrit logic all these examples are there from nature's study. Brahmānanda: Simple. *Prabhupāda: Simple, yes. Another is nagna*-mātṛkā-nyāya. Nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya, just like sometimes if somebody says, "Mother, when you were a child, you were naked. Why do you put cloth now?" Nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. The mother was naked when she was a child. Therefore she should remain naked still. That is nagna-mātṛkā-nyāya. Brahmānanda: What is that in connection? *Prabhupāda: It has connection, if somebody was not very important and now he has become important, so the logic is how this man can be important? This logic. That because the mother was naked in the childhood, therefore she should not put on any garment. This is nagna*-mātṛkā-nyāya. We change according to the circumstances. You cannot say that this must remain like this. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also not because of the development of consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Everything is development of consciousness. So when one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is perfect. Consciousness is there even in the tree, but that is not developed. When you cut the tree, it feels. Even a child their consciousness is not developed. Sometimes operation in the body of a child does not require anaesthetic, because they do not feel much. Can go on surgical operation on the child's body and they will feel little. Because the consciousness is not developed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So according to the consciousness... Prabhupāda: Development. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When a person becomes very old, he should be very intelligent. Prabhupāda: No no. It is a question of consciousness of the body. That does not mean when a dog becomes very old he becomes very experienced. No. Consciousness according to the body. The same theory. Because a child's body is not developed, the consciousness is also not developed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And these rascals say that because the consciousness is not developed, he has no soul. Soul is there even within the tree. But because the consciousness is not developed, the sensation is less. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still the consciousness in a particular species is developing. Prabhupāda: Everywhere is developing consciousness. And the topmost development is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the modern science, they say when one becomes old, the memory becomes short and then they tend to... *Prabhupāda: Yes. The body has changed. Therefore you have to accept that body has changed. Therefore next conclusion is when this body is lost he gets another body. Change of body. Seasonal changes. That one verse in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, acceptance of another body. Then these modern scientists, they do not know this. They sometimes explain medical science, that blood corpuscles are changing, do they not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are sometimes white, they say, suppose when I am injured, my external something hurts. They say the white blood corpuscles are responsible to protect the body. But when the white blood corpuscles is not enough, then infection normally occurs. *Prabhupāda: Anyway there is change of corpuscles. And with the change of corpuscles there is change of body. That is scientific. Therefore body is changing every moment, so why not after death? Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So consciousness is also subject to body's changes, change of body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Body's circumstances association. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. According to association, atmosphere, circumstances, the desires changes. So that is, desire means consciousness. Just like our boys, they had different consciousness before coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like you are also scientist, there are other scientists. But your consciousness is different from theirs. Therefore you could challenge him like that. If you can create life by accumulation of these facts. He says that I do not know. He is not confident in his science. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is not experienced. He has not seen yet. Prabhupāda: He is not above the defects, four defects of conditioned life. You know these four defects? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Illusion, mistake, cheating, imperfectness. They are aware of the imperfectness of the senses. Still they are proud of their knowledge. This is illusion. (end) Morning Walk -- May 9, 1973, Los Angeles Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was going to ask is there any difference between acintya-śakti and mystic yoga power? Prabhupāda: They call it mystic. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The same? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mystic yogic power means the same acintya-śakti, dormant potency which is within everyone. That can be awakened. The same example, as I have given, that everyone has got the potency to swim, but it has to be practiced. I cannot swim. For me, if one is swimming, it is inconceivable power. But I have got also that power. By practice, it has to be awakened. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is a yogic process. Prabhupāda: That is yogic process. Real yogic process is to find out Paramātmā, but side by side many other dormant powers become awakened. Another example, that tree is producing chemicals. So every living entity has got dormant potencies, more or less. So God, Kṛṣṇa, is the supreme living entity; therefore He has the full potency. God means full, complete. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The best living entity, that is God. (pause) Is there any difficulty to understand the best living entity? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The best living entity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that best living entity is God. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. That means the best controller, the supreme controller. Just like this man is controlling his dog, and that man is controlled by somebody else. In his office or where he works, he is controlled by his boss. And the dog is controlling the cat, the cat is controlling rat. In this way, one after another, there are controllers. I control you, he controls me, another controls him. In this way, you go on searching. When you find out somebody who controls but is not controlled by anyone, He is God. Where is the difficulty to understand? Everyone here we see that although a person is controller, at the same time he is controlled. Therefore the ideal living entity is, he controls but he is not controlled by others. That is supreme. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the supreme living entity... Prabhupāda: He is God. He is living entity, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the Vedic version. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he doesn't have to practice yogic power. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because He is most perfect, He hasn't got to practice. Just like the fish hasn't got to practice how to live within the water, natural. Svābhāvikī. It is called svābhāvikī. Svābhāvikī means by nature. If I want to fly in the sky, I will have to find out... Just like these boys are struggling with the waves with precaution, with so much practice, but a small fish, he doesn't care for big, big waves; it will go against. So that small fish is more powerful than you in that respect. You are struggling against the waves, but the small fish goes against the waves without any difficulty. A small teeny... So many things. There are many superiors than you. The most superior is God. That's all. That is the definition of God. You won't find anybody superior than Him. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more any superior. That is God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the living entity comes to the human platform, though he is conditioned, but still, by practice of yoga he can develop... Prabhupāda: Some of the powers. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...which cannot be developed by other living entities, like for example, fish. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That distinction is there between one living entity and another. You have got some power, others have got another power. That's tara*-tama, means comparative and superlative... That is called tara-tama. (pause) There are varieties of potencies. All these potencies are visible, some in you, some in me, some in others. But all the varieties in full potency is in God. That is God. Not like this rascal incarnation of God. What is that, they came? Bālajī? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Guru Mahārāja? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that. (laughs) That Kṛṣṇa was requested by His teacher that, when He was offering that "Now I am going home. What shall I present to you, guru*-dakṣiṇā, giving to the guru?" So he requested, "Kṛṣṇa, I have heard that You are so powerful. I lost my two sons. If you bring them..." So Kṛṣṇa immediately went and brought them from within the ocean. This is God. Similarly, Devakī also requested Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa, before Your birth I lost seven children. Your maternal uncle killed them. So I want... I have heard that You have returned back the sons of Your teacher. Why not my sons?" So He brought them. That is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa went to Kāraṇārṇavaśāyī Viṣṇu, penetrating the covering of this universe. Arjuna also went with Him. You know that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Kṛṣṇa...? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa went outside this universe, penetrating the sky. And Arjuna also accompanied Him. So it is Kṛṣṇa's power, He took His friend also. For ordinary human being it is not possible. But because Kṛṣṇa said that "All right, I'll take you." So He took him. This covering, universal covering, there are seven layers: earth, water, fire, air... Each layer is ten times bigger than the one layer. Then you go to the spiritual world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ten times bigger than each layer, it increases? Prabhupāda: That one layer, the other layer is ten times bigger than the first layer, and the third are ten times bigger than that, ten times. In this way the whole universe is covered. What your scientists know? (laughs) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists say that there are different layers in the atmosphere. There is ionosphere and all those spheres. Prabhupāda: So anyway, some ideas are there. But in Bhāgavata it is all written. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they do not say that ten times. Prabhupāda: What do they know? They do not know anything. Know something. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when we establish the theory of acintya-śakti... Prabhupāda: Not only acintya-śakti. First of all you have to establish that life is not from matter. Matter is from life. Then they will be under your control. First of all you have to establish. Because their whole scientific advancement is going on on this basis, that life is from matter. But that is not the fact. Matter is from life, just the opposite. First of all you have to establish this. Why don't you write a theory and get Nobel Prize? This is a fact. Now you have to prove only, by their scientific words. That's all. Fact is this is. Are you convinced about this fact, that matter comes from life, not life comes from matter? Are you convinced or not? Otherwise how you can write? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I am convinced. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you write in scientific language. All these material elements have come from life. Not that from material elements, life has come. No. That is not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, "Everything from Me." But Kṛṣṇa is life. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8], janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So... And bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. So many informations are there. Me, "Mine," "I am," like that. So He is life. Our God is not dead. Our God is life, living, just like us, one of us. But He is more powerful. That's it. Our God eats, sleeps, like us, just like we eat, sleep. The difference is that He eats, but He keeps the thing as it is. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: Oṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we eat, we finish. And we cannot again produce. God's power is like that, that He eats, at the same, keeps everything intact for your eating. And I, if you give me a plate, I eat and there is nothing for you. That is difference. He also eats. Otherwise we are making all these bogus things, preparing so many nice things, offering to God? Is that false? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. *Prabhupāda: No. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. He is so complete that one minus one equal to one. That is Absolute. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is expanding Himself by so many energies, but Kṛṣṇa is the same. There is no loss in His energy. Even in a human being or animal, he produces so many children. Just like hog*-he produces at least one dozen children every year, but the hog is the same. If a hog can have so much power... And formerly one man used to produce hundreds of children. Wherefrom the potency comes? If a man is giving birth to hundreds of children, but still, he is the same man, wherefrom the potency comes? Why man? Even the fish, thousands of eggs they produce, and thousands of fishes are again produced. Wherefrom the potency comes? Svarūpa Dāmodara: From the supreme controller. Prabhupāda: Not supreme... He has got. From the supreme control..., yes, but directly we see that He has got so much potency. Everything is coming from Supreme; that's a fact. But you can see hundreds and thousands of children produced by one single living entity. The snakes, they produce hundreds and thousands of children at a time. Fortunately, they eat their own children. Otherwise, the whole world would have been full of snakes only. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They eat? Prabhupāda: Yes. All animals, they eat their children. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have seen the eggs of snakes. They are small, this big, the eggs. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: As the Kali-yuga advances, the human beings will eat their children too. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like in the last war, they ate stool, their own stool, out of hunger. So when there will be no foodstuff, they will kill their own children. Already they are killing, abortion. Not only abortion, children grows... By surgical instrument, they kill and they take out the child... They are already killing. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: When they take the pill, the birth control pill, are they killing their children too? Prabhupāda: Killing means killing, what is that? What he is asking? I do not... Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is asking that they take the pill, birth control pill. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is one kind of killing. But directly killing. They, through some instrument, through the vagina, they kill, cut into pieces and get out. Living children. He is a scientist. That surgeon, he is a scientist, and doing this business. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, medical scientist. Prabhupāda: Just see. He is paid for that killing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They lost the mercifulness, the quality... Prabhupāda: What merciful? Animal has mercifulness. They are animals only. This modern civilization is producing animals. That's it. Who was speaking that slaughterhouse they are giving some injection that the animal may not feel pain? Rascal, he is killing him, and he is humanitarian work, he may not feel killed. If I say, "I shall kill you, but you will not feel any pain. Come on." This is their philosophy. They are killing, and they are saying, "Oh, may not be feeling any pain." Such rascaldom is going on. I therefore do not talk with any rascal except my disciples. I know they are all rascals. Waste of time. All this rascaldom is coming out of that wrong notion that life is from matter, that wrong notion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they say, "So long as I am alive, enjoy as much as you can." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their philosophy. Hedonism. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they know that there is life after death or life started from life, then they would not be doing like this. Prabhupāda: So many things you will change. (pause) And that is mystic power for me. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: Surfing? Prabhupāda: Yes, because I do not know how to do it. Therefore it is mystic power. But the boy is going like this. (pause) Just like one of the yogīs, she (he) walked over the river, crossed. So another old man said: "Oh this is only two paisā worth." Why? "I will pay two paisā to this boatman. He will cross me there." But to attain that power, he had to spend so many years for practicing. This is waste of time. If you can do it by paying two paisā or one ānā to a boatman to cross the river, why should you for ten years or fifteen years practice this yoga, just to show a magic? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda, I remember an incident in Bombay. That was when I was in Calcutta about, a few years ago. There was a yogī. There was advertisement that he was going to walk on water. Prabhupāda: No, that is possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I think it was about five hundred rupees per ticket. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. His real aim was to get some money. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Radhakrishnan was there, the president. But ultimately, he could not walk. He fell down in the water. Prabhupāda: And what about the money? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't know. He was beaten or something. They said he missed something. Prabhupāda: That's like you, chemist, just missing something, "In future we shall do it." It is the same thing. And these fools, Dr. Radhakrishnan and company, they are so fools that so many animals they are walking on the sea, "I am going to see another man." Just see, how they are fools. What is their credit? The sea lark. They call sea lark? They go very nicely. Why do they not see that? He is animal, he is, another is an animal. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: Birds can float and they can fly. Prabhupāda: Yes. So Dr. Radhakrishnan was a big rascal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I could not believe by that time. I said, "It cannot be possible." *Prabhupāda: No, it is possible. It is possible. If one has practiced yoga system, He can become light. To walk over the water means to become very light, like cotton swab. Then he can walk. He can fly also. In Siddha*-lokas, the inhabitants there, they fly in the sky. From one planet to another planet they go by flying. There is Siddha-loka planet. Therefore they are called Siddha-loka, means they have all perfection of this yogic mystic power. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: Are Siddha-lokas like angels, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Angels, you can call, they are angels. But there are human beings who fly. In your side, Kāmakaḥ (?), there are some ladies who fly in the sky on a tree. You have not heard? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I very vaguely have heard. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are. They can fly in the sky on a tree. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When I was a child, our grandfathers used to tell those things. So I would... Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. That is mentioned in Bhāgavata also, that... Whose daughter? She dreamed of a nice husband. So her friend, *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: Uṣā. Prabhupāda: Ah, Uṣā, Uṣā, yes. So Aniruddha. That friend brought Aniruddha, Kṛṣṇa's son. She dreamt Aniruddha. So she promised, "I am bringing you just picture, which picture do you like?" *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: Citralekhā. Prabhupāda: Citralekhā. Yes, he remembers. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is an experiment that was done by Pasteur, a French scientist a long time ago. In that experiment he boiled some, I think it was water. Because normally the water, without boiling there are so many microorganisms, small, small living entities, that can be detected under microscope. He wanted to know whether life started from some ingredients inside or just life started from life. So he boiled this solution and he kept for some time under very careful covering so that there is no contamination from outside. And then there was no life. He couldn't find any organisms. So they said, "Life starts from matter." That is one of the experiments. Prabhupāda: What is that experiment? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Boil water first of all. Without boiling water, they can detect so many organisms, small, small bacteria and these small, small living entities under microscope. But when they would boil it and it kept for some time, and then they tested, there was no organisms. Prabhupāda: But that microscope is imperfect. That is our contention. Because the living entities, the dimension of the living entity is 1/10,000th part of the top of your hair. So what you can see? Karandhara: Also, they make the condition unsuitable for the spirit soul to occupy. Just like if we take and kill all these bodies and put them somewhere, and come back in a week, it's not that life will come back to the bodies. They make the circumstances unsuitable for the spirit soul. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another explanation. It takes time. Besides that, according to Bhagavad*-gītā, life is not killed by fire. Aśoṣyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. You have not read it? Adāhyaḥ: "It cannot be burnt into fire." So how life can be killed by boiling water? That is their nonsense. Karandhara: As soon the bodies become unsuitable, so the spirit soul leaves. Prabhupāda: Aśoṣyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. Adāhyaḥ. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But by putting proper chemicals, then they can see again. The ingredients necessary for the survival of the living entities, the necessary amounts, like source of protein, source of carbon, then the life is again started. Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the life came? Karandhara: It's not started. It becomes suitable again for the spirit soul. So they come. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: They're just changing the living conditions. Karandhara: Like if you put honey, ants will come. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good example. That does not mean the honey is producing ants. If life is coming from matter then why you are putting chemicals? That is also matter. Life will come. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, without the chemicals, they cannot see life. Prabhupāda: The chemical is also matter. Just like with one matter you make... Just like we mix so many matters. Turmeric, salt, spices, they are all matter. But mixing together, the condition is that it becomes a sweet vegetable. Similarly, the chemical is also matter. And water is also matter. So if life comes from matter, then it will come from the water. Why...? There is no use of mixing another chemicals? And it will actually be: Then let the water remain for some time. When it will decompose, the life will come. The stagnant water, life will come. Just like in the ocean, there are so many lives are coming out. Who is going to put the chemical? Nonsense. Where you have got so much chemical? And you can find out tons and tons, millions of tons of fish, but nobody went to give there the chemicals. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say, nature supplies the chemicals. Prabhupāda: So therefore that nature's potency is acintya. That is beyond your calculation. That is our point. How nature is supplying, that you do not know. How there is very common thing. Just like from my body there are so many worms and germs will come out from the stool, there are so many worms. I am also producing life. I am not going to add some chemical. But the chemical is being supplied by me, by my potency. Otherwise, why so many worms are there in the stool? Hookworm and this worm and that worm? Sometimes from wood, what is called, termite? They come. And who is going to supply there chemical? And not from all wood. At a certain stage, it will come, without your adding chemicals. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The chemicals are already there. Prabhupāda: Already there. Everywhere chemicals are there. When the suitable circumstance is complete, then there is life. Svedaja. They are called svedaja. By fermentation, by perspiration, life will come. Aṇḍaja. Aṇḍaja means coming from the egg. (end) Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: How far progress, establish matter from life, not life from matter? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I've started working. Prabhupāda: Ah. A great task. That will be a triumph for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: [break] Brahma*-vaivarta Purāṇa? Asatiṁ caiva caturo lakṣam...(?) Prabhupāda: Tān... *Svarūpa Dāmodara: jīva*-jātiṣu. *Prabhupāda: Jīva*-jātiṣu. Jīva-jātiṣu. That means the evolution means from one form to another. The forms are already... Jātiṣu. Their facilities, they are already there. The living entity is simply transferring himself. The same example: One man is transferring himself from one apartment to another. That apartment is first-class, second-class, third-class. Just a person has come from a lower class apartment to a first-class apartment. The person is the same. Now, according to his karma or according to his capacity of payment, he has got a good apartment. This is... Bhramadbhiḥ. Bhramat means wandering, wandering. Not that they... Evolution means developing. Is it not? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I understand that part, but I also come across from Śrīla Prabhupāda's commentary on the Bhagavad*-gītā that the living entities, all the living entities, 8,400,000 species, they are simultaneously created. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That means there are some living entities, say for example, human beings. They come right away to the human platform without undergoing the... Prabhupāda: Yes, Brahmā. Just like Brahmā. He is in human form only with four hands. He is the first born. And then he created other living entities. Brahmā is first born from Viṣṇu. He has got four heads, four hands, two legs, he can speak. It is human form. Then, from him other forms came out, marīcy ādi, ṛṣi, great great, saintly persons. Nārada, Kumāra. In this way, creation was there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the evolution of life... Those who are coming to the lowest living entity, the organisms, smaller units, so once they come to that stage, then they have to pass through the stages stepwise. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just the same example: As you get more money, you can acquire better apartment. The apartment is already there. Not that a apart..., this lower class apartment has become high class apartment. This is their nonsense. The Darwin nonsense theory is like that: "The apartment has become lower class to higher class." That is his theory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, he is saying that evolving from the smaller units. So they are claiming that there was no human beings at the beginning, so the smaller living entities... Prabhupāda: But they are claiming that there is no life. That is their defect. Therefore they cannot think how there can be human being. But if you begin from life, supreme life, Viṣṇu, from another life, Brahmā came, then there is no problem. Everything is all right. Because they think that life comes from matter, so millions and millions of years ago there was simply matter. Life was not visible. That is their theory. We don't say that. We say both are the energies, God's energies, life and matter. The life is superior energy; the matter is inferior energy. That is the difference. Both of them are existing. Same thing, example: This nail and this part existing always. This is superior part, this is inferior. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are existing simultaneously or living entity creates. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Without nails how can I exist? Without skin, how can I exist? My existence means everything*-my skin, my hair, my nails, my legs, my hands, everything. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one is dependent on the other? Or the spirit is independent of matter? Prabhupāda: The spirit is independent. Just like I am existing. That is life. And there are other limbs of the body. I can live even without limbs of my body, but I cannot live without life. If I have no hands, no legs, still I live. So therefore I am not dependent on hands and legs. My hands and legs are dependent on me. (pause) Is it not better to walk little, then sit down, compact room? Karandhara: Oh yes, it's necessary to walk a little. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Just get my cloth. Where it is? Missing? No, no, no. Harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Our theory is sound. The rascal's theory is not sound. Ours is not theory; *it is fact. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "From Me everything emanates." Vedānta*-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] The Absolute Truth is that from where everything comes." But everything we see, life and matter. This is everything. What we see in this world? Life and matter. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is everything. So life also comes from Him and matter also comes from Him. Energy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But both come simultaneously? Prabhupāda: No, no, not simultaneously. It is there already. Coming, idea is coming because we are in this limited world. We see everything here, we see there is beginning. So under that experience, we are thinking it is coming. But it's not coming. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is already existing. Prabhupāda: Already there. Therefore they are missing the clue. Coming, beginning from here. They are rascals. It is already there. God is eternal and everything is eternal. His energy is eternal. Matter and spirit, everything is there. I am born, I think that this is the beginning of the world. Nonsense, the world was there long ago. Everything was there existing. Just like you get heat from fire. So does it mean heat is beginning? Whenever there is fire, there is heat. But I think, "Now there is fire, heat will come." Heat will not come. It is already there. You will experience. Similarly, heat and light is... Everything is there in fire. If the fire is there, heat and light is there. There is no question of beginning. What do they say? The heat and light, there was beginning? About the... Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a source for heat and light. Prabhupāda: Yes. So source is already there. Therefore heat and light is already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the varieties of living entities that we find in the material world, can we explain because of the desire of the living entities, to make..., to live in different houses? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows. Just like government constructs a prison house. Government knows there will be rascals, criminals. So already is there prison. Before the judgement the prison house is already there. Sarva-jña. God is sarva-jña. He knows everything. So He knows that some of them will come out criminal. Just like king knows that not that always everyone will be honest. There will be dishonest. So construct this prisonhouse. Like that. God knows, Kṛṣṇa knows that this material world, the varieties of desires according to the modes of material nature... So there are three modes of... You can calculate also. Just like there are three modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Now if you make variety, three into three, it becomes nine. And nine into nine, it becomes eighty-one. So there is eighty-four. What is the difficulty to understand? These three qualities, just like three colors, blue, red and yellow, you mix. Oh, thousands of different colors you will find. It is the expert color combination. That's all. Similarly this material world is made of three qualities and if you make varieties, mix them again eighty-one to eighty*-one you can mix. So it requires expert handling. So that expert handling is there. Nature is there. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. Guṇaiḥ. This very word is used, guṇaiḥ. By the qualities, prakṛti is manufacturing different types of body, varieties of body: plants, trees, aquatics, human beings, demigods, cats, dogs, so many things, 8,400,000. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when the Paramātmā and the jīvātmā are within the same material living body, so the... *Prabhupāda: Paramātmā is not material body. Paramātmā's energy. Just like heat and light is the energy of the sun. The sun is not feeling heat and light. For him, everything is all right. There is no heat in the sun, body of the sun. He doesn't feel any heat. You are feeling heat. Similarly, for Paramātmā there is no such thing: this is material, this is spiritual. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. We hear that He has got different energies. His energy is one. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. That is spiritual only. Just like sunshine. That is sunshine. Now we are seeing it is covered with cloud. It is our imperfectness. But there, in the sun, there is no such thing cloud. Experience, practical experience. The sun is not experiencing cloud, although there is cloud. We are experiencing. Similarly, this matter and spirit is for us, not for Him. He, either He comes in so*-called material body or spiritual body it is the same. It is the same. For Him it is like that, the same, because it is His energy. He can turn matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That He can do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So making these houses, temporary houses, is directed by Him. Prabhupāda: No. Directed by māyā. Prakṛteḥ, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Is it dry or wet? (the ground) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not very wet, just a little wet. Prabhupāda: He has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Just like I am head of the institution. I have nothing to do. I say, "Karandhara, do it." Immediately does. I say you, do it, immediately... I say him. I have got so many secretaries. I will ask him. Similarly, why God will create. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there is a direction. *Prabhupāda: Direction, yes. That is said, mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My direction." So if it is possible for a common man like me, how much it is possible for God? That we have to understand. Now I want to go to India, London. Now everything arrangement is made. I can go immediately. So similarly, if God wants to do something, why He has to do something? Everything, as soon as He desires, everything is there. He wants "Let there be material creation." There is, immediately. This is God. We are thinking in my terms. "Oh, such a huge universe! How a person can create? Where he got this tool? Where he's got the hammer? And how he constructed it?" I am thinking like that. Because I am limited, I am thinking in my limited way. So I am denying, "There is no God." Therefore we have to first of all understand acintya, inconceivable power. Then we can understand God. If I think, "God may be..." That kūpa*-maṇḍūka, that frog is thinking, "It may be little bigger than this, little bigger than this." So how you can understand Atlantic Ocean within the well? So these rascals are all frogs. So they are thinking in their own terms, God. And because they cannot accommodate, "There is no God, finish." The same example: the rabbit, "Close the eyes, there is no danger." Finish. That's it. They are no better than the rabbits, these so-called scientists. Closing the eyes, there is no God. You have to smash them by their, Tora lati na, tor śilā torna amora tora bāṇi dāntera gora.(?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tor śilā? Prabhupāda: Śilā you know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah, huh. Prabhupāda: And nora means mortar and what is called, pestle? So it is your śilā nora. I take it and break your teeth. (laughter) So take their, this jugglery of words and break their teeth. That should be the policy. "These molecules and this and that," so many words. You have to simply catch their words, and with their words kill them. That is intelligence. We are saying plainly. You say with these words which is their sona, mortar and pestle, and break their teeth. That's all. Tora śilā tora nora tora bāṇi dāntera gora.(?) This policy should be adopted. Otherwise, we know they are rascals. But if I say, rascal, people will say, "You are not a scientific man, how you can say he is rascal?" "Therefore I am flattering you that otherwise..." You haven't got to convince me, that (he's a) rascal. I know that he is a rascal. Now, because we have to prove that he is a rascal to another rascal, we have to take your help. This is our policy. Otherwise, so far we are concerned, if they go on lecturing for millions of years, we shall kick on their face. You should know he is mistaken. Let the rascal speak whatever he likes. We know the conclusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in trying to make a house, we need certain materials to build the house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Materials are already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So similarly when the living entities, when they come down to the material platform... Prabhupāda: Material is already there. Just like what you are manufacturing. You are... Already everything is there. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the chemists or the scientists, what they're thinking is, there are chemical elements, which are the materials necessary for staying the spirit soul within the..., so long as he is within the material world. So they're saying that these material elements-carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen*-the main elements, somehow they combine together forming the living units, but our point is the chemicals are there, but in order to start the real nice house, the spirit soul has to enter within these chemical elements. Prabhupāda: Yes. These chemical elements will already help him, by nature's way. Just like you put a seed on the earth. So other things necessary for fructifying that seed, that is already there. They will come to help it. That is already there. Just like the living entity in seed form is impregnated within the womb of the mother. The mother has got within the womb all ingredients. Body will develop. On account of the presence of the living entity, by the laws of nature, everything is there. A dog is forming dog's body, man is forming man's body. Why? Because everything is there. A cat is forming cat's body in the womb of the... Yathā yonir yathā bījam. You haven't got to search out. It is already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they may ask, "How do I know that the living entities..." Prabhupāda: What you know? You do not know first of all. Therefore you have to take information from the śāstra. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. This is there. The jīva is doing something, and higher authorities are giving him the result: "Now you have done this. Now you live in this way, in condition." Svarūpa Dāmodara: That part we can explain by... When they ask, "How do I know that the living entities...?" Prabhupāda: Just like a man is condemned for going to the jail. The man who will take him to the jail, the jail and everything is already there. The arrangement for his living in the jail, everything is complete there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can we explain by acintya śakti, Śrīla Prabhupāda? If we say, how we enter, that is the difference between the... Prabhupāda: No, that is acintya-śakti. You cannot think how it is done. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it is done. *Prabhupāda: It is done. Just like sometimes I think that I came here alone without any expectation of success, and this movement has become so nice. Actually, by one man's effort it was not possible. But it has become so. This is acintya-śakti, Kṛṣṇa's, inconceivable. Even a modern businessman, he cannot organize such a worldwide organization in such short a time. We have talked with many businessmen in India. Some said, "We have got thirty branches," somebody says, "We have got forty," another twenty branches. Our students say "My Guru Mahārāja has 102 branches." So they say, "No, we cannot compare with your Guru Mahārāja." So this is acintya-śakti. You can see so many things, the acintya-śakti is working. So unless we accept acintya-śakti of God, it is not possible to understand what is God. Inconceivable potency. And that is actually a fact. We want to bring God to our level, that's frog philosophy. Atlantic Ocean to the level of well. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. We have to understand that this whole universe... Just like Arjuna saw the virāḍ*-rūpa, universal form. So this whole universe is the form of the Lord. So if in my body there are so many chemicals, enzymes, and other things, so how much there must be, proportionately? Suppose if we find some portion of chemicals in my body, you will find less in the ant's body. Or you will find more in the elephant's body. So if I can create so many chemicals within my body, how much chemicals He can create? On that account... Your theory, that combination of hydrogen, oxygen makes water, that is a fact. But you are surprised, wherefrom such a big quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came so that the ocean is there. That you cannot calculate. But we answer: "This hydrogen, oxygen is there in the body, universal body of the Lord." Therefore you find. Why do they, do not understand this plain thing? Hydrogen, oxygen we accept; that's a fact. But you are surprised wherefrom this big quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came? That we answer. So let us cooperate. Then the people will be happy. That is acintya-śakti. If a poor man cannot spend ten dollars and if a rich man immediately spends million dollars, he becomes surprised, "How it is possible? How it is possible?" It is like that. We have got the capacity of not even ten dollars. We are thinking of millions and trillion dollars. Adara vapari yahan khabor.(?) You know this? Adar, adar, adar means ginger. A ginger merchant, he is asking, "When the another ship will come?" Ginger is never purchased ship loaded. You take little ginger. If you have got one bag of ginger, then it will be sold in three years. So adar vapari yahan khabor. (?) What you have got to do with ship, shipment? You just carry one bag or ten sheer(?) or ten kilos... That's all. So these rascals, they are adar vapari, and they are taking account of where is that ship. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I've noticed that there is a misunderstanding in the definition of living and the non*-living among the scientific communities. Prabhupāda: What is their definition? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that living beings can reproduce and can grow and can make... Prabhupāda: Yes, that we say. That we also say. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there are also non*-living matters like crystals. They can grow. We can divide them, and it will reproduce like... Prabhupāda: No, without living entity within, nothing can grow. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So some are saying that when they make these chemicals like the big molecules that we were talking about, DNA... And they are saying that DNA can make its own replication, means it can make another chain of molecules by its own. So they are saying that it is living. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And some are saying that it's not living. Prabhupāda: That means their knowledge is imperfect. Somebody is saying something somebody is saying something. That means imperfect. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So if we define the definition what is living and what is non*-living, so living means that contains consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the non*-living, that has no consciousness. *Prabhupāda: No. That is the difference. That is defined in Bhagavad*-gītā. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That thing which is spread all over your body, that is avināśi, that is eternal. Antavanta ime dehā [Bg. 2.18]. This, what is said... The body is antavantaḥ, perishable. Nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. And the spirit within the body, that is eternal. That they cannot understand. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can also say that according to the different shapes of the material bodies and qualities... Prabhupāda: Different opportunities... Yes. According to consciousness we have got the shape of the body. If you have got dog's consciousness, then you get a dog's body. If you have got a god's consciousness, you get a demigod's body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is the desire of the spirit soul. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. Freedom is given. Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you want, you can take." Yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. Everything is freedom. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then why is it in the Vaivarta Purāṇa, after traveling 8,400,000 species of life, we get this human form of life? Is that contradiction with the...? Prabhupāda: No. Because in the lower form of life, the progress is by the laws of nature, and in the human form of life, you get consciousness development. Therefore you have got discretion. The other forms, they have no discretion, one after another. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. My point being the... Some human beings, they come without traveling through these 8,400,000 species. Prabhupāda: Then he can come. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this applies only to those living entities who are born... *Prabhupāda: They are advanced in consciousness. They are advanced in consciousness. Suppose you are advanced in consciousness. So you are not going to get the dog's body or cat's body. You get another human body. Yoga*-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. Yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ is not ordinary man. He is practicing yoga, but somehow or another could not fulfill. Therefore he gets again human body. He does not get the cat's body, dog's body. So he directly comes to the human body. There is no question of evolution. Same example. The apartments are already there. If you can pay more, "Come on, this apartment is ready for you." Not that you have to come from the lower platform, lower animal apartments. Daiva-netreṇa. The judgement will be done by the higher authorities. They do not know that. Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should start going back. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. Your work, and supervision-higher authorities. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is completely in contradiction with Darwin's theory. Prabhupāda: Darwin is a rascal. What is his theory? We kick on your face. That's all. That is our philosophy. The more we kick on Darwin's face, the more advanced in spiritual consciousness. He has killed the whole civilization, rascal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even all the scientists now, the present scientists, their arguments are based on Darwin's early theories. Prabhupāda: What they are...? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: That life started from matter and is evolving from the uni*-cellular organisms to the multi-cellular organisms. So that means they are saying that there was no higher species at the beginning of creation. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. So why there is now higher species? And the lower species also. As we see at the present moment, there is the most intellectual person and the most foolish ass also... So why do we see all the things simultaneously? Why ass is not abolished? What is their answer? So similarly, formerly also there was. Karandhara: They say, "parallel evolution." They say in the process of evolution some are advancing and some are remaining stable. Prabhupāda: So if that, even parallel, then there is Brahmā. He is most advanced. Why do you say there was no human being? There was. Therefore their theory, "In such and such era the human life began," that is wrong if they accept parallel. They are existing always. And as we see. Now as we see, the trees are there, birds are there, animals are there, human beings are there, God is there, demigod is there. Everything is there. Where is the question of evolution? Simply we have to enter. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we have anything, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the reference, saying that all the living entities are already there? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that jīva*-jātiṣu. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, and that implies? *Prabhupāda: Jīva*-jāti, different grades of jīva. Jāti, you know jāti? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like there are different nations. They are already existing. So jāti means that. Jāti means born of a particular species. That is jāti. Jīva*-jātiṣu. Ṣu, plural number. So many jīva-jātiṣu. He's simply Bhramadbhiḥ. Just like I am traveling, sometimes America, some Australia, sometimes... But they are already there. I am going sometimes in America, sometimes Australia, sometimes Africa, but they are already there. I am the man; *I am traveling. Not that because I have to come to America, I create America. This is nonsense. And there are many countries I have not gone there. Does it mean that they are not existing? They have no even human reason, these rascal scientists. The common sense reason. And Bhagavad*-gītā clearly says they are already existing. Wherever you like, you can go. You can go even up to the kingdom of God if you so desire. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to know a little more about the... (end) Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...to stop him for taking another Nobel Prize. Where is? (laughter) I am giving him notes that life is not from matter. Matter is from life. So he is going to write thesis on this. *Paramahaṁsa: Jaya. Vedānta*-sūtra. *Prabhupāda: This is the fact. The so*-called scientists, they are going on a wrong theory. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." So Kṛṣṇa is life. Kṛṣṇa is not dead stone. Svarūpa Dāmodara? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the source of everything." He is life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is not a dead stone. Then how matter can be the cause of life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Matter is caused by life. *Prabhupāda: Yes, matter grows upon life. Just like why this body has grown upon me? I am the spirit soul. This is māyā. Just like, this is... I have explained in Bhagavad*-gītā. I am putting on this overcoat. The overcoat is made according to the size of my body, but I am thinking, "I am overcoat." This is foolishness. Just like I got my hand, therefore this overcoat is made of warm cloth. It has got a hand also. Because originally I have got hand, therefore the overcoat has got a hand. Similarly, originally I am spirit soul, I have got my spiritual body, and the material body has grown, cut according to the body. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about in mineralogy? Scientists have proven that, for example, mountains are growing by sedimentary activity. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also growing on spirit soul, Supersoul. Paramahaṁsa: In the mountain? Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. Mountains have been described in the Bhāgavata as the bones of God. These grasses are described as hairs on the body of God. These holes, there are holes, we saw that. They have been described as oceans. So in this way, this virāṭ, the biggest body. As the smallest body is producing chemical, similarly the biggest body also, producing chemical. A small tree, lemon tree, how many pounds of the citric acid it is produced? Paramahaṁsa: I do not know. Prabhupāda: No, producing, you know. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if the tree can produce so much chemicals, how much the body of God can produce chemicals, we can imagine only. They are giving the theory that "From these chemicals life begins, or evolution begins." But wherefrom that chemical developed? That they do not know. That explanation is here, Kṛṣṇa: "I am the source." *Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam or the Kṛṣṇa Book, you state that even clouds have souls. But then again they dissipate, in the rain they dissolve. Does that mean they die? Prabhupāda: No. Just like your body dissolves. Does it mean you die? Paramahaṁsa: So that means the life span of a cloud is very minute or very short. Is that so? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many living entities. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my understanding of the evolution and the transmigration is that evolution is uni*-directional, only in one direction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whereas the transmigration can be both, in both directions. They can go up or can go down. Prabhupāda: No. Both ways. When you say "trans," "trans" does not mean stereotyped. For lower animals, that is one side, and for human being, both sides. Because after all, the body is made according to your desire. The lower animals, they have got one kind of desire, but the human being, he has got thousands and millions of desires. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the platform of transmigration from the human platform, so it works, either it can go down or it can go up. Prabhupāda: No, transmigration (is) going on. They are coming automatically, animals, to the upper level of human form. But when you come to human form, if you don't cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you remain as cats and dog, then you become again cat and dog. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the evolution stops when the spirit soul reaches the eternal abode in the spiritual... Prabhupāda: Yes, when he is no more entangled by a material body. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists have no information that there is evolution after human platform. Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. Therefore I say they are rascals. They have no knowledge; still, they proclaim they are scientists. Paramahaṁsa: They think that evolution is continuing. They think that the human species will... *Prabhupāda: Yes, evolution... That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25]. Progress is going on. That progress, the ultimate progress is yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. That where you're going, you do not return, that is the supreme progress. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. That is the highest perfection. You read Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there. Mām upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ [Bg. 8.15]. They have no idea what is the highest perfection of human life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements. Prabhupāda: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis? Svarūpa Dāmodara: And when the spirit soul, when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the... Prabhupāda: Do the rascals believe in the living entity? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they don't say living entity. Bodies. Prabhupāda: Then? Paramahaṁsa: Something akin to Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Paramahaṁsa: The Buddhists also say that the body is like a house. You put the house together, you put the body together with chemicals. And when the bodies die, just like you take the house apart, all the wood, and then there is no more house... no more soul, no more life. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called nirvāṇa. And with the chemicals you can build another house. Buddhists they do not give any information of the soul. That is Buddhism. What...? Oh, wet? (the ground?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, it's dry. Paramahaṁsa: There's another very interesting factor that scientists, they state that matter is, or that there is, they dispute the fact that there's one soul within the body. There's a special kind of worm, it's an earthworm, that if you cut it in half, both parts will live. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So they wonder how is it possible that if there is soul, that there could be two souls within one body? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not. Souls takes the opportunity. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, it takes the opportunity of the other body, the fertile... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material. *Prabhupāda: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Kṛṣṇa. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Māyā has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mahāprabhu? Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion. Paramahaṁsa: But ultimately if we come to Kṛṣṇa, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagāi, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned? Prabhupāda: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is. Paramahaṁsa: If we want. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Fall down? Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; *again comes out, again goes. Like that. Kṛṣṇa*-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The māyā may be there, but māyā captures him who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, māyā does not interfere anymore." Paramahaṁsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Kṛṣṇa brings us to our natural position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: But then again there's this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires even though we want to serve Kṛṣṇa? This continues? Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow. Paramahaṁsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of māyā. Paramahaṁsa: Even though the desire exists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that "If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail." And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft? Paramahaṁsa: Why? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Ignorance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda gives the example of the elephant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Takes shower again and... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Hasti*-snāna. Therefore, knowledge giving, that is the beginning of spiritual life. Kṛṣṇa gives Arjuna, knowledge giving, that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. What is that knowledge, all over the world? Where is that university? This preliminary knowledge which Kṛṣṇa begins, Bhagavad-gītā, where is that university? Svarūpa Dāmodara, where is that chemical laboratory or university? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is none in the universities. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is the position of your education. There is no knowledge, and you are simply advertising, "Advancement of knowledge, university, PhD's, Nobel Prize holder." But they are all rascals. Fools' paradise. It is called, fools' paradise. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If the scientists know that we are not this body, then definitely the whole outlook will be changed. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want to do. Paramahaṁsa: They don't want to admit their failure. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If you are a fool and if you want to pose yourself as intelligent, that is another foolishness. You cannot make progress. Stubborn dogs. If you are seeking after knowledge, you must take the right knowledge. That is intelligence. And if you want to remain in ignorance and advertise yourself that "I am man of knowledge," how much cheater you are! You are cheating yourself and cheating others. That is going on. We want to stop this. Paramahaṁsa: Just like many of our devotees, we experienced when we tried to preach to our parents, because they are much older, to admit that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right path in life, means to also admit that they have wasted their entire life. Prabhupāda: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān: [SB 7.6.1] "Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: Because of sense gratification or mind... Prabhupāda: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence..., Svarūpa Dāmodara: Blunt, intelligence becomes blunt. Prabhupāda: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut. Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ: [Bg. 7.15] "Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools." Paramahaṁsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world.... *Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma*-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development means technologists; they are śūdras. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: But they have taken the position of brāhmaṇas in the society. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brāhmaṇa? Brāhmaṇa's position is to teach brāhmaṇa knowledge, brahma*-jñāna. That is brāhmaṇa. Paramahaṁsa: Prior to the growth of technology... *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are śūdras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of śūdras. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ: "In this age, all are śūdras." Only we are trying to become brāhmaṇa. Otherwise all śūdras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arms, no mouth, so what is this body? Paramahaṁsa: Corpse. Prabhupāda: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; *therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first*-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization. Paramahaṁsa: The question I have, Prabhupāda is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means śūdras. That I have already said. Paramahaṁsa: But now they listen more to scientists. Prabhupāda: That means śūdra. Śūdras are interested to hear from śūdra. Paramahaṁsa: For example in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false." Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Scientists, they have proven the truth that the world is round. Therefore scientists... Prabhupāda: Yes. That must be, therefore the scriptures must be transcendental. Nonsense scripture, and people become nonsense. So except Vedic literature, all nonsense scripture. They are not scripture. Manufactured. This Bible was manufactured by the saint, this saint, that, according to their imagination. It was not spoken by Lord Jesus Christ. What was spoken by Jesus Christ, that they ignore: "Thou shalt not kill." They kill. Nobody is following Christian principle; neither Bible is perfect. But that, if we say, we will be shot. (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: That is what they do now in the Vietnam. For God they are killing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists. Paramahaṁsa: But preach first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: They don't preach. Prabhupāda: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword. Paramahaṁsa: A new method of warfare. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a little wet. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise? Prabhupāda: Well, the questions... Answers are there in my books. Paramahaṁsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in... Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramātmā? Prabhupāda: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity. Whether there. What is this? Sacrificial arena? (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: For children, I think. No? For cooking, yeah. (pause) *Prabhupāda: (About tennis players) How people are kept into ignorance. Life is so valuable, and they are wasting time in that way. Life is valuable, how life should be utilized, what is the object of life*-they do not know anything. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without knowing that the soul is eternal, everybody would be acting like this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Bodily concept of life means animal life. The animal does not know. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Go-kharaḥ. Go means cows, and kharaḥ means ass. One who is in the, under bodily concept of life, he is no better than animals. So when the animal talks of knowledge, an intelligent man laughs. That is our position. The animals, they are talking of knowledge. Paramahaṁsa: At least, the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unless necessary. They only eat when necessary, whereas man, he kills unnecessarily, eats unnecessarily. So forgetting God, we are even lower than animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we suffer also, more than the animals. (pause) So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a bogus religious sentimental movement. It is a scientific movement. So now it is up to you to prove this. Then you will be actually Kṛṣṇa conscious. (pause) [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they were saying that everything in the universe is just happening by chance. Prabhupāda: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book? Karandhara: The book is also by chance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules... Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the molecules came? Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to him it is simply by chance. Prabhupāda: Chance. So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then necessity arises, so these molecules re*-orient, change as a fashion because of necessity. Prabhupāda: Why? If everything is by chance, where is the necessity? What is the meaning? Let the chance take place. Why necessity? Paramahaṁsa: He is hoping for another Nobel Prize by his chance. Prabhupāda: All fools' paradise. That's all. Why do they send their children to school? Why not let them grow by chance? Is there any excuse if I say, "By chance I have violated this rule?" Is that the cause of excuse? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's because of my ignorance. Prabhupāda: That is chance. That is chance. Because I am ignorant, therefore there is chance. Paramahaṁsa: It would be just as stupid as saying a beautiful instrument like a car was made by chance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the most regrettable condition, that these rascals are getting recognition; talking all foolish, and they are getting recognition. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's so strange. When I read that book. He defines the difference between the living and the non*-living by a term called teleonomy. I tried to find out in the dictionary and I couldn't find any word like that. But I understood that what he meant was... Prabhupāda: Hyerpolosvel. (Prabhupāda's mythical scientific word) (laughter) *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: He invents his own word jugglery. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was trying to present the difference between organic beings and the non*-organic beings. So he goes in such a round about fashion just to differentiate. Prabhupāda: Petitio principii. This logic is called petitio principii. He has to prove something, but he is taking his premises from that something. (end) Morning Walk -- May 14, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: The material energy, it is also coming from Kṛṣṇa. The spiritual en... Kṛṣṇa Himself is spiritual energy. Exactly like that is. This weather is coming from sun but sun is covered. The weather created by sun makes himself covered; not himself covered, it is covering our eyes. Sun is not covered. My eyes are covered. Therefore material means when our consciousness is not developed. That's the meaning. It is somehow or other covered. That is material. Where is our scientist? They... The mistake of the scientist is that they do not accept two energies, the material and spiritual. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: They accept one energy. We accept also that. But they, defect is they are beginning from the material. That is their method. Just like this weather is beginning from the light and gradually it is becoming dark. So darkest part or the dark part is called material. But the dark is beginning from light, not the light is beginning from dark. That is their method. They are thinking that from matter, consciousness is coming. Now consciousness is there. When it is covered, degraded, that is unconsciousness. So material means when the consciousness is forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Material means gradual development of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. And spiritual means full consciousness of Kṛṣṇa. Is it clear? Try to understand this. Darkness is coming from light. Where the light is not visible that is called darkness. This is not the nature of the sun, this covering, cloudy nature. That is not the... The nature of sun is light, but by the energy of the sun another thing is temporary created which is called mist or darkness. This is temporary. This is not permanent nature. Therefore material nature is temporary and spiritual nature is permanent. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to get out of this temporary nature and go to the spiritual nature, permanent nature. Nobody wants also this temporary nature. Nobody likes this cloudy atmosphere. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cloudiness is created from the superior energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So material is created from the superior. Prabhupāda: Creator is one. It is always superior. Whatever is created, that is created by Him. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. "I am the creator of everything." So bad or good, everything. Bad and good, that is your creation. Kṛṣṇa's creation everything good. God is good. What you think bad, for God is good. Therefore we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He's doing something. In our consciousness it is bad, but we do not know that for him there is no such thing as good and bad. That we do not know. Kṛṣṇa is marrying 16,000 wives, somebody's criticizing, "Oh, He's so much fond of women." But we do not see the other side. He has got the power to expand Himself into 16,000 forms. Paramahaṁsa: If this mist of material nature is temporary, then why bother to disentangle oneself from something transitory? Prabhupāda: Why do you take covering? Does man walk naked? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: Why do you take covering? You know everything will be cleared after few hours. Why do you cover? Paramahaṁsa: It is dangerous now. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, why do you take this step to avoid this? *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: It's uncomfortable. It's not natural. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Māyāvāda theory; that everything will uncover automatically, why do you bother? That is nonsense. Karandhara: They will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they're a dog. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Karandhara: The Māyāvādīs will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they're dogs or cats. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: They have to have a human body in order to enjoy that philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that there is only one*-God. So cats and dogs, that is God's līlā. That is their rascal philo... God is making pastimes, līlā, by becoming a dog. That is their rascal philosophy. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. Vivekananda's philosophy. Nārāyaṇa has become daridra, poor. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So with chemists we have no quarrel if they begin from light. They're beginning from darkness. That is our contention. We say, "Begin from light." And they say, "No, begin from darkness." Because they're in darkness. One who is in the darkness, from darkness, if he goes to light, he thinks that the darkness is the beginning. Paramahaṁsa: In comparison, they always compare. Prabhupāda: No, no comparison. It is practical. Suppose you have been in the darkness for millions of years and when you come to the light you think that "Oh, from darkness the light has come." Light, when it becomes dimmed, that is darkness. Not that (from) darkness, light has come. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: Darkness cannot exist without light. Prabhupāda: Yes. Or in the light there is no darkness. When the light is dimmed that is darkness. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dimmed, that is material. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: It's very wet. (referring to the ground) Prabhupāda: Yes. After awaken, when one becomes tired he comes to sleep. Or the life, when it is somehow or other disturbed, sleepless comes. When at night we sleep and get up in the morning, it is not that from sleeping condition this life condition has come. I slept some reason or I was in life condition, but I slept, again I am coming to life. That is their philosophy. Just like a child, baby comes from the womb of the mother. From the day he comes out of the womb, if he thinks, "Now, from this day my life has begun." That is not the fact. He's eternal, but he was constructing his body within the womb of the mother, therefore he was unconscious. Now, as soon as the body is finished, he comes out and again comes to consciousness. Karandhara: And again falls asleep at death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Once he comes to awareness and again he's unconscious. Just like this flower, it has come to now consciousness. Again it will dry and die but the seeds again will grow. Again it will dry. This is material life. And spiritual life means flower only. That's all. (pause) I have got some nice shirt buttons somebody has given me. I shall never put on shirt, neither our students. I think we shall sell it. Devotee: Buttons? *Prabhupāda: What is called? Button, is it not button? Shirt*-fixing? Collar-fixing? Devotee: Is it a pin or something like this? Prabhupāda: Yes, like that...gold. Devotee: Not cuff links. No those are... Prabhupāda: Aha, cuffles. Devotee: Oh, jaya. Do you like I buy from you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: I give you my soul for the cuff links? Prabhupāda: No, you take it and sell it. (pause) [break] The last four days this students are not clear. Devotee: Man's best friend. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because he has no knowledge who is the best friend. According to the quality, friend is selected. Karandhara: And one is known by the company he keeps. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāranaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The best friend will lead him to take birth in that family. He'll help him next birth because he'll always think of dog, so next birth, dog. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, if you are attached to something then you'll think of it, and next birth is that. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one's life is achieved by one's consciousness, how is it one cannot remember one's previous life? Prabhupāda: Do you remember everything what you did last year or yesterday? Paramahaṁsa: No, I don't. Prabhupāda: So that is your nature. You forget. Paramahaṁsa: Something. Prabhupāda: Something there is possibility of. Something..., somebody forgets more, somebody forgets little. But the forgetfulness is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the platform of material nature. *Prabhupāda: Just like stealing. Somebody's pick*-pocket. Somebody's dacoit. The stealing is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When we sleep, when we dream, are we carried away by the three subtle elements, mind, intelligence... Prabhupāda: You are carried always by nature under different conditions. You're simply being carried by the nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. You are under the grip of material nature. Just like pulling the ear. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: By our desires we are pulled? Prabhupāda: No. You desire. There it is. That's how. It is not willingly because you are willing desires against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore she's giving chance, "Come on here. Take stool. Become hog. You wanted to eat stool. Come on." This is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This also shows the eternal nature of the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not eternal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because I'm conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore your consciousness is being revived. Come to the standard of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll be happy. That is our business. His consciousness is being misled by so many ways. Therefore we are trying to give him the standard consciousness, "Come to this point, you'll be happy." Svarūpa Dāmodara: How to prove that the soul is eternal? Prabhupāda: That is the first lesson. You do not understand? You are a child, now you're a grown up boy. Where is your childhood? Where is that body? Ha? The dead body does not exist but you are existing. That means you're eternal. Body has changed, but you have not changed. Circumstances have changed, but you have not changed. This is the proof of (indistinct). What do you want more? You may remember that I did yesterday these things, today I remember yesterday's activities, but your body of yesterday is not this body. Do you admit or not? As a scientist, the body has changed already. He cannot say that 1973, twelfth May yesterday. He cannot say. It is already changed. But you remember everything of yesterday. That is eternity. The body has changed, but you remember everything. Therefore you are eternal, body's not eternal. This is the proof. Simple proof, even a child can understand. But they'll not understand. That is the difficulty. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want some more. Prabhupāda: What is that more? It is a simple fact. Just like yesterday, day before yesterday, day before that we saw that stool. We therefore criticize. You are seeing for the last three days the stool, it is not cleansed. But day before yesterday's body, yesterday's body is not this body. And my body has changed, but I remember. Therefore I'm eternal. This is the proof. Eternity means I'm so... my body's changing, but I'm not changing. Just like, I'm old man. I sometimes think, "Oh, I was jumping like this and now I cannot jump." So my body has changed. But I want to jump. But I cannot do it. So that jumping propensity is my eternal propensity. But due to this body, I cannot do it. This is (indistinct). Karandhara: They would say that, according to their observations, that nature of eternity only lasts one body. *Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness because, as this body... That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. As this body's changing in my experience, similarly, there's another change. Karandhara: Well, actually, they're able to observe this change, but they can't observe that change. Prabhupāda: But you cannot observe, your rascal eyes are so imperfect, you cannot observe so many things. That does not mean science. Why don't you admit your imperfectional senses? You first of all admit the imperfectional senses. You cannot see. You cannot experience. That, does it mean that is science? So many dogs they cannot understand what is the law of nature. Does it mean that nature does not exist? Why do you think your sense are perfect? First of all, admit that you're the most imperfect. Karandhara: They'll admit that, but they say the way of becoming perfect is through objective information and experience. Prabhupāda: No. Way of becoming perfect is different. You cannot become perfect by your imperfect thinking. How you can become perfect? Paramahaṁsa: Another question, Prabhupāda, that could be raised is that "If the soul is eternal and passes through one body after another, how is not possible that it accepts, let's say, three, four, five bodies and then dies?" Prabhupāda: You are accepting millions of bodies and then die. That you do not know. I say that your body of yesterday is not of this body. So, similarly, if we live for one hundred years, how many bodies you are changing every moment? Just calculate. Karandhara: Thirteen. Prabhupāda: Ha? Thirteen? Why thirteen? Karandhara: Every seven years. Prabhupāda: No, no, every seven years. I say every second. Every second the blood corpuscles are changing. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you're chang... As soon as the blood corpuscle changes, you change your body. You do not know the science. So how many millions of birth you are changing even this experience? Karandhara: That is their stumbling block. They say they want to be able to observe everything with their imperfect senses. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their folly, foolishness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the scientific terminology the eternality of the soul can be compared with the conservation of energy? Prabhupāda: There is no question of conservation. It is energy. It is always existing. If you say that is conservation of energy then... Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. The definition of the conservation of energy is the energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That means that it is eternal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that we admit. Original energy of Kṛṣṇa, that is existing with Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is eternal. Therefore all His energies are eternal. Karandhara: So the living entity is also eternal. Prabhupāda: Just like the sun. Sun, the energy heat and light. If sun is eternal, heat and light (are) eternal. Hmm. What is that? Karandhara: They say energy cannot be created or destroyed, then life cannot be created or destroyed. Prabhupāda: We say that. Life is eternal. It is not created nor destroyed. It is covered only for the time. Just like, I'm eternal, but last night I was covered by dreaming, sleeping. So I say "yesterday" and "today." This is my position. I'm eternal, but because last night I was covered by dreaming, therefore I say "yesterday" and "today." Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if material nature is the absence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then where is material? I've heard you say that once before... Prabhupāda: There is no material. Yes? If you continue Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's nothing material. Just like when we offer this flower in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is it material? Devotees: No. Prabhupāda: You still can accept anything material? No. So how it becomes? It was material in the tree and it becomes spiritual? No. It is spiritual. So long I was thinking it is meant for my enjoyment that is material. As soon as I take it for Kṛṣṇa's enjoyment, it is spiritual. Paramahaṁsa: So, actually this entire world is spiritual. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want, that engage everything in Kṛṣṇa's service. This will be spiritual world. Paramahaṁsa: So we can also appreciate Kṛṣṇa's creation in that light? For example, this is very beautiful because it is Kṛṣṇa's. Prabhupāda: Yes. We realize that. We don't say... Just like Māyāvādī philosophy says mithyā. Jagan mithyā. "This world is false." We don't say that. We don't say "jagan mithyā." Devotee: This material nature is just one energy of Kṛṣṇa acting in a certain way? Prabhupāda: Why shall I say...? Kṛṣṇa has created so many nice things for His enjoyment, why shall I say, "mithyā." Suppose if you create nice house, very good apartment and you call me, "Just see." And if I say, "It is all mithyā." Paramahaṁsa: That's also an offense. Because I can't enjoy it. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then how much depressed you'll be. Let's say I brought this friend and this rascal is saying, "This is mithyā." Karandhara: Sour grapes. Prabhupāda: That is explained that asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te, jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. These rascals, these demons they say like that, that this is asatya, this is untruth. There is no cause. There is no īśvara. This is the demoniac declaration. If Kṛṣṇa is fact, His creation is fact. His energy is fact. Why shall I say false? We don't say it is false. The Māyāvādīs say it is false. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: If someone looks at the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material? Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. How it can be material? The stone is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like electricity energy is there everywhere. The electrician knows how to utilize it, how to take electricity. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, even in the stone. The devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Kṛṣṇa. The devotees know. The rascal, they do not know. Because the devotee has no other view than Kṛṣṇa. Why stone should be without Kṛṣṇa? Here is Kṛṣṇa. That is real oneness. And the Māyāvādī philosopher they say oneness, but divide. This is stone, this is not Kṛṣṇa. Why second? Why you bring another thing? Devotee: Good and bad, evil and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Is it so for a Kṛṣṇa conscious man that Kṛṣṇa is as much in the stone as in the Deity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Just as much? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Paramahaṁsa: But we order mūrtis all the way from India? *Prabhupāda: That is stated that, "Everything is in Me but I'm not there." This is acintya*-bheda... mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. Everything is Kṛṣṇa but you cannot worship this bench as Kṛṣṇa. That is rascaldom. Karandhara: Kṛṣṇa says, "Worship me in this way." *Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Just like the sunshine. That is also sun. Is it not? But you cannot say when the sunshine is in the room, you cannot say, "The sun is my room." This is called acintya*-bhedābheda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Acintya bheda...? *Prabhupāda: Acintya*-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. Paramahaṁsa: But still you said one can see Kṛṣṇa within the stone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Paramahaṁsa: And one can worship Him within the stone or within everything. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree. We see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. Oh, these things, these people are being misused under māyā, let him gain some enlightenment. This is our mission. We are teaching that, how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. How to understand Kṛṣṇa in everything. That is our mission. See Kṛṣṇa in everything. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad*-gītā, why don't you read? Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra, "Anyone who sees Me everywhere and sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati... and everything in Me, he's perfect." Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should return to the car. *Prabhupāda: All right. Yo māṁ paśyati... (pause) The karmīs, they are thinking, "Everything for me." The jñānīs they are thinking, "Why shall I be implicated in this material things?" And we say that there is nothing material. Dovetail everything with Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. "Anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he's immediately promoted to the transcendental platform, brahma." He becomes brahma. Now, somebody may say, "Oh, we see he has got the same body, how he has become brahma?" And how Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, he has already become brahma." How to adjust? Paramahaṁsa: Like the flower. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing. Yes. As soon as everything is understood in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is brahma*-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] stage. That is liberated stage. Everything is created by Kṛṣṇa. Everything is meant for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness life. That is perfect life. Somebody asked me, "Why you have come to this country?" It is not your country. I've not come to your country, I've come to Kṛṣṇa's country. (laughter) Devotee: We are trespassing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why shall I come to your country. I've come to Kṛṣṇa's country. Śukadeva: Prabhupāda, there are many impersonalists in Seattle. We have many universities and I'd like to go there and try and defeat them. But sometimes I forget, I cannot remember the scriptures, so what would be the best clue to always defeat them? Prabhupāda: Well, if you understand the philosophy without scripture, you can convince them. You can give so many examples. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The weather is getting worse, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Karandhara: It will get worse when you leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: When I will... It will get better, as soon as I go away. (devotees sigh) Karandhara: No. No. Prabhupāda: It will get..., that is natural. It will not stay. But I'm not going out for this weather, don't misunderstand me. My physicians asked me, therefore... I'm accustomed to this... (end) Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 15, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...difficulty for the scientist to understand God? What is their difficulty? We understand God very easily. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They find it very hard to see the spirit, the soul in... It is very doubtful, they say. Prabhupāda: No, no, spirit you see or don't see, that is dif... Umāpati: He studies matter. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, once they see the spirit soul, they can detect somehow, then they are definitely convinced. Prabhupāda: So how you can see? It is... The measurement is given, 1/10,000th part of the tip of the hair. So where is your seeing power? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still they want to sense it by some... Prabhupāda: Sense, that is... Any rascal can sense that here is living energy. That is spirit soul. Just like if you inject one grain of poison and immediately he dies, does it require how he dies? That one, not one grain. Even one hundredth part of one grain, venomous poison, how it acts? So even nobody can see it, when the snake bites, nobody can see where is that... How he dies? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will explain that by..., it blocks some of the metabolic paths... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but it is acting. That is my point. You can explain in your nonsense way, this, so many things. But I see that because that very little portion of poison is there, immediately he dies. Why don't you see the action? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like taking cyanide. Cyanide, they say cyanide blocks the... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but the thing, we have to see by the effect. Similarly, if the small particle of... Therefore our knowledge is perfect. We take it from *Vedas*. The small particle of soul, because it is present there, you will see the whole thing is going on nicely. Karandhara: But they say the soul is subject to material conditions. They are seeing the body as the soul; so they say because it is subject to material conditions, therefore it's not eternal. Prabhupāda: No, no. Maybe material conditions, that is... But soul you have to accept there is soul. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once they accept the existence of the soul, then there is not much difficulty. Once they accept this, then automatically they have to accept. Prabhupāda: No, they have to accept. They have no explanation. All they explain foolishly. How the man is living, how there is consciousness, he cannot explain. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Consciousness, because the soul is there, if I pinch here, immediately I feel, I am conscious. Throughout the whole skin, I am conscious. Actually the soul is not there. If you cut it, chop it, nobody protests. Why this simple thing they do not understand? Paramahaṁsa: That's the soul, Prabhupāda, but about God... Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand the soul. Soul is the, a small God, sample God. If you understand the sample, then you can understand the whole thing. Umāpati: Some scientists are claiming that just because they haven't yet discovered how to create life, they are soon to, and... Prabhupāda: What is that? Umāpati: They are in the process of trying to create life. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That we kick out. That we kick on their face. You show what you have got just now. That we don't accept, that "We are trying."A rascal will say, "I am trying to be millionaire." When you become millionaire, then talk. Now you are a poor vagabond. That's all. That we shall accept. What... You are trying. Everyone will say, "I am trying." What you are now? That is our proposition. Paramahaṁsa: . At the present they know how to kill very good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nonsense. "We are trying." That any nonsense will say, "I am trying." What is this? That is not a scientific proposition. Umāpati: Well, the argument that has been presented is that "Well we don't have it now, but soon we're to have it. So..." Prabhupāda: That any rascal will say. What is the difference between you and the rascal? Any rascal will say, that "I am trying to..." What is the use of these scientists? Any rascal will say. Trust no future, however pleasant. You can talk of all pleasant things in future, but you don't trust it. You as you don't trust, because you do not see soul, you don't trust. Why shall I trust you, you rascal, that in future you shall be very great scientist? You do not trust because you do not see. There is no soul. You cannot see. So why shall I trust you? What is the answer? That in future you will be able to do something extraordinary. Why shall I trust you? Umāpati: Give them a lot of credit. Karandhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past, they have accomplished so much in the past. Prabhupāda: That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done? Paramahaṁsa: Helped death. Prabhupāda: Helped means you have helped to minimize their duration of life. Formerly man was living hundred years. Now they do not live more than sixty, seventy years. That you have helped certainly. What you have helped? A man is dying ordinarily, and you have created atomic energy. You can kill thousands of men. So you have helped only in dying. But you have not helped in living. That is not possible. Then what you have done? Some childish play? What you have done? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. So what you have done? Formerly people used to become old. Now also, they are becoming old. Formerly people used to die. They are dying now also. Formerly the people used to become diseased. They are becoming diseased. More diseased. More medicine. What you have helped? You have not helped anything in the improvement of the order of the world? What is that help? Umāpati: The same scientists will point to India and say, "Look at all the dying and starving people over there." Prabhupāda: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India? Umāpati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are... Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir? Umāpati: Well, I am not doing this. Prabhupāda: No no, you are your men. Those who are not Indian. Paramahaṁsa: Well, perhaps it's because spiritual culture originates, spiritual culture is, permeates their society. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. When spiritual consciousness is presented in truth, then you become conquered. You have been already. The Christian people are astonished, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement so big shape within so few years. They are afraid now. Yes. And why they shall not be? Here is science. And that is foolishness only. Umāpati: That's their new religion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest, that "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will...? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth*-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill." That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer? Umāpati: Sense gratification. Prabhupāda: That's all. Violating. Paramahaṁsa: They have lost respect as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. Violating the laws. So how they can go on with the business? Umāpati: Somehow they think they have an answer. Prabhupāda: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question... Yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate... All, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as they put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer? Umāpati: No. Prabhupāda: The earth was flat. They believed that the world is flat. So how much imperfect knowledge they have got. So imperfect knowledge, how long it can go? Just like we are going to challenge all these rascals that life is grown out of matter. We are going to challenge. It is not a fact. So how long you can cheat people? For hundred, two hundred, thousand years, but you cannot cheat for all the time. Umāpati: It has been going on from time immemorial. I guess they figure they can just keep going on for time immemorial. Prabhupāda: No time immemorial. You are being cheated for two hundred, three hundred years, that's all. Not before that. All these scientists rascals, have come out within two hundred years. That's all. So you are being cheated for the last two hundred years, not for thousands of years. So it will be finished. Within another fifty years, everything will be finished. *Karandhara: Yes, they say now there is an anti*-intellectual movement. People are rebelling to science and modern progress. Prabhupāda: What is that science? That is not science. That is ignorance. Ignorance. Simply ignorance. Ignorance is going as science. Irreligion is going as religion. So how long it will go? People are becoming intelligent. *Paramahaṁsa: In Newsweek Magazine*-it's the largest magazine in the United States-there was an article about the degradation of Christianity, and they summarized it with a cartoon, a picture of the devil, you know māyā. This is their image of māyā. And he was causing earthquakes. There was a very large earthquake in South America. It killed many thousands of people. So they attribute this to māyā. And right next to them was a picture of Richard Nixon, because he is a very famous, you know... He presents himself as a follower of Christ. And he's bombing Southeast Asia. Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill." Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, "It's hell keeping up with Christians." *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, people will criticize like that. People are becoming advanced. How long you can cheat them with so-called science, so-called religion? Now you take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement seriously. He will give real thing. Try to understand. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, everything will be known to you. This is the process. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā*-you know everything. You know everything. And that is the Vedic injunction, Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati: "By knowing Kṛṣṇa only, you know everything." That science you try to understand and preach; people will be happy. Now, our question was that we say that the man... I say man. Other living entities, they are also living entities. So in Christian religion also, they say, "The man is made after God." Is it not? Paramahaṁsa: "In the image of God." Prabhupāda: So man is the sample of God. So why don't you try, study nicely man, and you can know, understand God, what is God. I asked these Christian people, "If man is made after the image of God, you study very scrutinizingly a perfect human being, and you will know what is God." Umāpati: The most ideal image of a human being is God. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So you take a perfect man. Just like Kṛṣṇa, you take a perfect man, take him as man, you see that He is God. He has got all the perfections. Even if you take him as a man. Paramahaṁsa: No competition. Prabhupāda: No competition. That is Bhagavān. Bhagavān means... We are giving this definition. Bhagavān means a perfect man. That's all. Now, just like man wants to wife, to have wife. So why there is, what is called, adulteration? He wants more than one wife. Just see, perfect Kṛṣṇa, He has got sixteen thousand wives, which you cannot imagine. Here is perfection. You cannot say that a man has no inclination to have more than one wife. That is there. So that propensity is, in perfection, is there in Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is God. Umāpati: They refer to it as the Don Juan complex. Prabhupāda: Juan complex, what is that? Umāpati: It's a character in Spanish history, fictional history. The perfect lover, the image that all men would like to be, the perfect lover. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be perfect lover than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, He loves everyone. Where is that man, he loves everyone? The so*-called patriot, they love their countrymen, but kill their animals. Why? Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen. Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, so why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Kṛṣṇa is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing Rādhārāṇī also. That is perfection. That is perfection. Kṛṣṇa talks with birds. These are there. One day on the bank of Yamunā He was talking with a bird. One old lady saw and said, "Oh, He's talking with a bird?" That is perfection. Paramahaṁsa: He sounded like this? He talked like that, like the birds talk? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another quality is bahubhāṣājñaḥ, He can speak in any language. Umāpati: Birds have language? Animals have their language? Prabhupāda: Oh yeah everyone has language. Everyone. Umāpati: Father, how is it that we can enjoy this energy we are in, Kṛṣṇa's energy now, and we acknowledge it as Kṛṣṇa's in the neophyte stage. A pure devotee realizes it as Kṛṣṇa's energy, but as a neophyte, how do we enjoy material energy in this aspect, the fresh air and the morning walk. Prabhupāda: A neophyte or anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. There is no question of enjoyment. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. But he takes the suffering as enjoyment. That is māyā. That is māyā. Just like in your country, they are working day and night. Just like from the morning, gugugugugugugugugu (makes noise of machine that is on nearby) They are suffering, but the people are coming, enjoying golf. That is suffering only. From the morning, going here, is it not suffering? (laughter) But he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is māyā. Umāpati: Just like the doctor's... Prabhupāda: Yes. This is māyā. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice." Similarly, all these gṛhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Forty drops. Prabhupāda: Just see. And how many, how much drops of semen he is discharging... That means he's spoiling his blood. But he is thinking, "I am enjoying." Would you like to, by giving your blood to enjoy? Would you like? Umāpati: No, I don't think I'd like. Prabhupāda: But you are doing that, every night. And that is called māyā. Umāpati: I'm a brahmacārī, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: No, you are...(laughter) I am giving an example. This is going on. He is going to die. He has adopted a process by which he will die, and he thinks that he is enjoying. This is called māyā. Māyā means things which is not, māyā. Mā means not, yā means this. "What you are thinking, it is not that." That is called māyā. So they are in māyā means, they are thinking, these rascals, they are thinking, improving, becoming happy, advancing this māyā word will finish everything, mā, yā: "Not this." Bhāgavata says that "You are thinking you are becoming victorious, but you are being defeated." Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jātaḥ. These rascal, abodha-jātaḥ, born fools and rascal, they are becoming defeated in every step. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he does not inquire about his self, "What I am," he is simply being defeated. That's all. This is the verdict. Umāpati: Walking further into the cave. Prabhupāda: He's working foolishly like animal. He does not know what is soul, what he is, nothing of the sort. He is working hard day and night and he is thinking, "I am becoming victorious." This is called māyā. What victory? Have you won victory over birth, death, the real problem? "No. We have won victory. We can now, without horse, we can go with a car." So what is that? With a horse or without horse, you cannot go anywhere else. You will be here within this world. That's all. Just like these rascals, now they have invented car. You know that? Formerly they were walking. Karandhara: Yes. Now he is pulling car. Prabhupāda: That's all. What is that? That within he's..., that golf area. (Apparently, a man is mowing grass on a machine in the background) That's all. (laughing) You know the cow? The cow is stuck up with a pole in India and long rope, and he's thinking, "I am free." *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: They have made a longer rope. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is thinking, "I am so free." Is not? This rascaldom is going on. Paramahaṁsa: The one who wrote Paradise Lost, Milton, he also wrote a poem which said that, "A working man is nothing but a devil's slave." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Paramahaṁsa: "He works so hard for his money, but not his life can he save." Prabhupāda: No, what he will do with the money? He will satisfy his senses, that's all. Paramahaṁsa: So he sells his life. Prabhupāda: So he's servant of the senses. Umāpati: He sells his energy... Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: Kṛṣṇa's energy that is in him, māyā's energy. Prabhupāda: [break] ...transmigration of soul. Suppose this time I am very great scientist, and next life I become a tree like this. What is my advancement? Stand up for ten thousand years. What is the advancement? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Going backwards. Prabhupāda: Yes. Going to hell, that's all. You are trying to be naked; nature will say, "Yes, you stand here naked for ten thousand years." Yes. That is the punishment for being naked. Human life is not meant for becoming naked. That is according to Vedic civilization a great sin. You see. So their, their propensity they are increasing to become naked like our George... What's his name? Lennon, Lennon. So next time he is going to be tree, stand up. Otherwise wherefrom the trees come? They cannot explain. You become tree. That's all. Just like the Nalakūvara; they were taking bath naked without caring for Nārada. All right, you become naked for one hundred years. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among the trees also, there are different grades of trees, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, everywhere different grades. That is God's creation, variety. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So those trees which bear nice fruits and nice flowers, they are... *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are pious, pious trees. Otherwise why I am taking care of this leaf? Because the flower is there. And who cares for this leaf? Trampling down. As in the human society, there is first*-class man, second-class man, third-class man, similarly in every field, first-class, animal also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cows. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Useful, giving milk. Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go*-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason? Umāpati: Uncontrollable tongue. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now what is that bird who is killed in Christmas? Devotees: Turkey. Prabhupāda: Turkey, you see. Now, Christmas, God's Christmas, Jesus Christ. He said, "Thou shalt not kill." But his birthday is observed by killing, killing, killing, killing, killing. Paramahaṁsa: And ham. Ham is also cow, isn't it? Karandhara: Pig. Paramahaṁsa: Pig. Pig and turkey they have. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: Actually, they kill the turkey on Thanksgiving, which is the day that they acknowledge and give thanks to the Lord. Umāpati: For this great country. Prabhupāda: For giving them opportunity to kill? And where is the opportunity? The Lord said, "Thou shalt not kill." Where do they get the opportunity of killing? That is another blaspheme. Where do they get this opportunity? They manufacture. Śukadeva: In Seattle not only do they eat cows, but they run out of cows and they start eating horses. It is very famous now to buy horsemeat. They have horse steaks instead of cow steaks. It has become so degraded now that they are eating horses. Prabhupāda: Why? Paramahaṁsa: They ran out of cows. Cows cost too much. Śukadeva: So now they are killing horses. Prabhupāda: So now they will eat their old father. Yes. No price. Home made. (laughter) Home made concession. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it's quite wet, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this side. Paramahaṁsa: Maybe drier over that way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anywhere you go. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This side is better, actually. Paramahaṁsa: Not only did Christ tell them not to kill, but he also, he himself said that all his disciples were like sheep and animals and he was their herder. So he gave the example that we are all like, we should be like innocent animals. So many examples he gave like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I remember this in Pittsburgh last year Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that meeting with the bishops, there was a Christian father, a Catholic father. So the question raised that Śrīla Prabhupāda said, "Thou shalt not kill," in the Bible, in the Commandments. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by some Christian priest in Melbourne, very good gathering. I said also the same thing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think his answer was "When the Bible was written, Christ didn't mean this way." That was his answer. Prabhupāda: Oh, He used that part. He has found out. The rascal. Beat with shoes, that what "Christian, Christ could not find out, you have found out. You are so great. Thank you very much. You are more intelligent than Christ. Oh. So why Bible. Why not write your Bible? Let us follow." Paramahaṁsa: Generally there are now something like 451 different translations. Just like the *Gītā*. They interpret in so many ways. Prabhupāda: No *Gītā*, or... Many translations, but the original *Gītā* is perfect. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Well they are not even sure that the Bible is (tape is very distorted) As a matter of fact it's a known fact that so many of the excerpts from Christ's disciples were, how you say, censored. There were parts taken out. Prabhupāda: Some Bible authorities say that there is no soul of the animal. St. Joseph or something. Devotee: St. Thomas. Karandhara: . That was St. Augustine. Prabhupāda: Just see. How great fool he was. And he's a saint. You see. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: Well the real in his book (tape distortions) Prabhupāda: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One life is the food of another. Prabhupāda: Another. That is not the question. That is also science. And this is also science that every living entity has got... (distortions) You eat. That I have already said, but why do you say something which is not fact? Devotee: They say what is the difference between an animal and a plant? Prabhupāda: Maybe different (distortion) difference between you and me. That difference you'll find amongst ourselves. We are all different. But that does not mean I have no soul. Any one of us has soul. (distortions till end of tape) Conversation -- May 16, 1973, Los Angeles (Conversation with Krishna Tiwari - Molecular biologist) Prabhupāda: Proper. Kanpur proper. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. We were originally from a village, but we're living in Kanpur now. Prabhupāda: Kanpur. It's a big city. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Industrial city. Krishna Tiwari: My name is Krishna Tiwari. Prabhupāda: Tiwari. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. In Kanpur I had an old friend—he was just like my father—Tiwari. Very rich man. They have got their temple. Krishna Tiwari: Which place? I probably know it. Prabhupāda: In Kanpur there is a big temple that belongs to the Tiwari family. It is famous temple. Many people go there to visit. Krishna Tiwari: I haven't lived there too long. Lucknow, we came to Lucknow, and . . . *Prabhupāda: The temple is very old temple. So the proprietors of the temple are brahmins , Tiwari. So the eldest member, old Mr. Tiwari, was a very nice, great devotee. At home he had Deity, Rukmiṇī*-Kṛṣṇa. He was worshiping at home Rukmiṇī-Kṛṣṇa, Dvārakā. *Śyāmasundara: Mr. Tiwari is a well*-known scientist. Biolo . . . biologist? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecular biology Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor in U.C. . . . University of California at Irvine. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know how famous, but . . . (laughs) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying biology and molecular biology. You were in University of Southern California before, right? Krishna Tiwari: No, University of California to Los Angeles. UCLA. Prabhupāda: So: So biology . . . biology means the scientist dealing in living entities? Krishna Tiwari: Right. Prabhupāda: So I don't think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true. *Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata*-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this? Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughs) I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little. Prabhupāda: That is real scientist. Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the other hand . . . of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both . . . or all the people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious man. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two. Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be difference. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he got those data; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that. Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body, and the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you be—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be—their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. *Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemist, physicist, engineer, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point . . . angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). This is . . . this we can simply imagine: one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don't think any scientist can have any measuring instrument. Krishna Tiwari: I think that can be measured. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: I think they can measure that. Prabhupāda: Acha ? Krishna Tiwari: It can be measured. Prabhupāda: It can be measured? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: It can be measured; otherwise how it is said? Krishna Tiwari: Very easily measured. Prabhupāda: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul. Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there's no soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: Because they don't know how to look for it. Prabhupāda: Therefore, how they'll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure. Śyāmasundara: They can't find it. Prabhupāda: They cannot find it. Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it. Prabhupāda: Yes. We . . . I said, this is the measurement. Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the śāstra . Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then? Prabhupāda: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there. Krishna Tiwari: What is the measurement? *Prabhupāda: The one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's very easy to measure. Prabhupāda: So why don't you find it? Krishna Tiwari: But that's probably the reason. Nothing is there, just a number, because . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Krishna Tiwari: This is just a number, because one*-thousandth part of hair is just a big number that . . . *Prabhupāda: Not one thousandth. One ten*-thousandth. Krishna Tiwari: That doesn't matter. You can make it one millionth. Prabhupāda: How's that? Krishna Tiwari: It will be a measure of a distance, which is very easy. That cannot be a soul. Prabhupāda: So . . . no. That cannot be so easily . . . it is definitely said, jīvaḥ bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Jīva means solo . . . soul. Soul's measurement is given there in the śāstra . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, but what are the . . . this is the . . . I don't know. This is the measurement, one thousandth of a . . . *Prabhupāda: One ten*-thousandth. Krishna Tiwari: . . . of a tip of hair? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is . . . I don't understand that, because that will be . . . at that time I think it was all right, because people thought nobody could measure one thousandth . . . ten*-thousandth of the tip of a hair. Prabhupāda: I . . . we don't say people could not measure. People could measure. People measured; therefore it is, the measurement is given there. It is not that people could not measure. People measured it, definitely, and then gave it—"This is the measure." Krishna Tiwari: Okay, so what you are trying to say? What symbolically it means, very small. Is that what it means? Is that what it means? Prabhupāda: Very small . . . that small part is there in every body. The soul is there. Now they, without finding it, they say soul is nirākāra : there is no measurement. That is my point. I say there is ākāra , form. Krishna Tiwari: There is a form of soul, according to you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they say there is no form. That is my point. Krishna Tiwari: Well, they don't know, probably, at this moment. But I don't . . . I . . . we have a trouble, at least I have a trouble, in understanding whether anybody else knows about soul. According to you . . . Prabhupāda: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the śāstra and we try to perceive, that's all. But there is something. That measurement very . . . may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point. Krishna Tiwari: Right. But I mean, with due respect to śāstras , after all, in my opinion śāstras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have . . . Prabhupāda: Not five thousand years. Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand? Prabhupāda: No. You cannot calculate. Krishna Tiwari: How . . . well, this is a different game then. Prabhupāda: No. We have got . . . because this, if we take on the strength of śāstra , we understand that after the birth of Brahmā . . . Brahmā created this universe. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Prabhupāda: But, uh, Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. I agree with that. Prabhupāda: So now, at the present moment, we are in one day's . . . Brahmā's one day we have passed only half. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). So one yuga is calculated to be forty-three lakhs of years. Now . . . Krishna Tiwari: That is also 4.3 million years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: That is 4.3 million. Prabhupāda: Yes, and multiplied by 1000. Krishna Tiwari: OK, we've got 4.3 billion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the duration of daytime, one daytime of Brahmā. And similarly calculate night, similarly you calculate, that is twenty*-four hours, one day and night. Similarly, you calculate one month. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I understand that, Swāmījī, but, uh . . . Prabhupāda: In this way he lives for one hundred years, according to these calculation. Krishna Tiwari: I can understand that. But, see, we do know. We do know the age of the earth, and we know better than anybody else does. Prabhupāda: How can you know? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we know. We have our own measurements, which are very reliable. Different people will come up with the same number, and we do not have to depend upon any, you know, roundabout answer. Prabhupāda: No, we have to depend . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, we don't. Prabhupāda: . . . because your theories changes every year. Krishna Tiwari: No . . . well it changes, (laughter) because it is very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to depend. Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change . . . Prabhupāda: "Change is the law of nature," that's fine . . . Krishna Tiwari: And therefore . . . Prabhupāda: . . . but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: That is true, but you . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "I know seventh year. I do not know what is going to happen ninth, eighth year." Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not the point. Point is that . . . point is how to . . . how long this earth where we all live . . . now we're talking about only this earth. How long this earth, we know, existed? Prabhupāda: I'm not talking of the earth. I'm talking of the whole universe. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Well, we'll talk about one object first, before we talk about universe next. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That means you are not in the knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: No. But Swāmījī, you want to talk about something, you want to start from something which is easy to comprehend and go further. How is it . . . Prabhupāda: Now, the whole universe is one unit. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with philosophy . . . Prabhupāda: If you study my whole body, you cannot begin studying my nails. Krishna Tiwari: But you have to study nails. Prabhupāda: That we . . . that will include. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair. Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere. Prabhupāda: No. That is . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientific process. Prabhupāda: Scientific process, you begin studying . . . suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say? Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I . . . can I have my some doubts? Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That because you are studying my body, you begin studying from my hair? Krishna Tiwari: Some place. Some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace. Prabhupāda: You think that is, uh, scientific? Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study . . . if they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul. Krishna Tiwari: But how we know about the soul? Prabhupāda: We know from the Vedic knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well somebody said there is a soul, but the question is, unless we all realize, and there is a way of . . . Prabhupāda: We realize. Everyone realize. As soon as the soul goes away, your body is lump of matter. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, (laughs) this is just dead. I mean, I don't know whether soul went away or not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You don't know, but I know. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's your belief. Prabhupāda: No belief. I'm taking . . . Krishna Tiwari: That's your belief. Prabhupāda: I'm taking my . . . Krishna Tiwari: It's my belief too that there's a soul, (laughing) but I, scientifically, I don't know. Prabhupāda: Your, your, your belief is also based on some scientific data. Krishna Tiwari: No. No. Beliefs can be anything. But I can believe he's out to kill me. He can believe I'm a bad man. Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: Belief has no foundation. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily foundation. Prabhupāda: Belief, belief is there. Fact is not belief. Fact is fact. Krishna Tiwari: Well, fact has to be established. Prabhupāda: Established? It is established. I say, I say that this is the distinction between dead man and living man. Krishna Tiwari: Will it extend to animals also? Prabhupāda: Anyone. Anyone. Krishna Tiwari: According to our Hindu philosophy, I understand everything has a soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everything. Everybody has a soul. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that makes me doubtful, because if I go into my laboratory and I can create as many souls I like. I can breed animals, as many as them I like. Prabhupāda: You cannot create. The souls are already there. You can find out . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well I . . . then I'm putting a lot of pressure on God. Every time I make lot of rats, I'm asking for rat souls. Prabhupāda: Rat has soul, yes. Krishna Tiwari: I know, but that's . . . why, why then I can do it? When I can . . . whenever I want them to be here, they will be here, not on the will of God. According to our concept of soul . . . Śyāmasundara: If he's in a laboratory and he's breeding rats, he's making rats have sex life and have babies, then he is controlling the souls of those rats. Prabhupāda: He is not controlling. He is controlling the body. Krishna Tiwari: Well, so body has soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: So I'm controlling the souls. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: No? I'm making them come. Prabhupāda: No. You cannot, you can . . . you cannot control the soul. Krishna Tiwari: I understand that. Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . otherwise, when the soul is gone from the body . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . you could replace one soul. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's true. I mean that, I, uh, if you go . . . but my point is that the rat has a soul, and if God has something to do with the soul, then I should have no control of it. Prabhupāda: Apart from God. Apart . . . we're not going to God. Just like here . . . Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Let's talk about soul. Prabhupāda: You are studying the hair. Your point is you're studying . . . soul is the part of God, mamaivāṁśo (BG 15.7). God says: "The soul is My part and parcel." Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he's a dead body. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are biologist. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh? Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium. Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) What is that? Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How? How is this? Krishna Tiwari: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How it comes? Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And this is not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lot of variables. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Going back to your example about rats . . . *Krishna Tiwari: Uh*-huh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . if I give you . . . you say you are creating rats. I give you this plant, can you create a rat from it? Krishna Tiwari: No. That is transformation of matter. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, that's . . . that's what creation means. If I give you nothing, can you create rat from it? Krishna Tiwari: No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So all you're doing is playing with established laws of nature . . . Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . to create rats. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you're not creating anything. Krishna Tiwari: No. Not . . . I'm not . . . I'm perpetuating it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not . . . Krishna Tiwari: At my will. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, you have given . . . you're given a will to perpetuate . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . to, to change a few things. *Krishna Tiwari: Uh*-huh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A few things. You cannot perpetuate a rat out of that matter. Krishna Tiwari: Of course not. Of course not. Nobody else can. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, and all you can do is study that established law of nature by perpetuation of rats. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah but, yeah but . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: And that law of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . is my, is under my control. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's not under your control. Krishna Tiwari: I can change a rat. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That as much as you go along with that law of nature . . . Krishna Tiwari: No. No. For example, we have found out the law of nature, yes. That is always the law of nature, and that is supreme. That I agree. But, but I can manipulate that law of nature as today, not me, with the help of all other scientists, which nobody else could do ever. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation is within that law of nature. Your manipulation fits within that law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Of course. Of course, I agree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation, your intelligence . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot manipulate the law of nature. You are under the law. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree. Śyāmasundara: You can't bring a dead body back to life. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. But on other hand, on the other hand . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: So let's go from there. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the limit. Prabhupāda: Then why don't . . . you cannot bring the dead body into life? Krishna Tiwari: I don't think this is the point of argument, because I have, I have already, I have already agreed that the body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this is, this is the point, this is . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, no, wait, listen, because the point is this. I agree that the living gets dead and no science can revive it. Prabhupāda: Therefore, what is your science? Krishna Tiwari: Fine. But what I'm saying is that when the question of soul is something which is not at the moment visible to us or anybody. There is no indication that there is soul, because if there is soul in everything, I would imagine that that will not be controllable under laboratory conditions. If soul made us, then we should not be able to make differences amongst us. If, if the soul was the prime force, and was an important force, then such differences of very magnified nature as exists between one species, between the same species, for example human beings, or between the rats, they will not be under the control of the human beings. One could make rats with white eyes, same rat can be bred and made with blue eyes. Or rat can be made white to black. Now these knowledge, this knowledge which man has achieved by studying the law of nature would never have arrived if we just believed in total something which has been said. *Śyāmasundara: What . . . what good are blue*-eyed rats? Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is a different point. (laughter) What good is life? What good is anything? But that, that point is out of the question. Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not creating anything new. Krishna Tiwari: I never said I did create anything new, but I changed those recognized things at will. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the laws of mutations. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, at will, at will, made by my own, which, which God . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. No. That will is not your own. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is not. Krishna Tiwari: Sure it is. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is limited. You . . . can you will to jump up, go to another star? Krishna Tiwari: No. No. We don't know yet, that. Prabhupāda: So you don't know so many things. Krishna Tiwari: Of course. I agree that on the first place. Prabhupāda: But we know. Krishna Tiwari: No. That's the difference. (laughter) What we do not know, we are ready to agree that we don't know. The trouble comes when people know nothing and they say they do know. Prabhupāda: No, we know. Now why . . . how do you say no? We know. Krishna Tiwari: No. This is your belief, and I'm not . . . Prabhupāda: It is not belief. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can believe that too. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe too, but this is . . . belief, as somebody's belief. Say I may believe so many things, as you do, as Swāmījī does, as everybody else does. Prabhupāda: What is your explanation between dead body and living body? Krishna Tiwari: As I said, you see, it's a very complex thing, and I would not say something that I know from which probably I don't know. What we could measure in a dead body is that we see many things, you know. Things, say organs, are not working . . . Prabhupāda: Apart from the soul, how . . . what is your explanation of this dead body? Krishna Tiwari: We point that the organs get diseased, reactions do not take place as they do, and the nature of . . . law of nature takes over. We are the great believers of law of nature, better than other religious people. We believe law of nature more than anybody else does. Śyāmasundara: But you think you can control the law of nature? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I think so. I think so. This, this is the great . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Beyond the law of nature or within the law? Krishna Tiwari: Within the law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the law of nature. Therefore you can never control it. Krishna Tiwari: Why not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within it, you're controlling it within it. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, what is control there? Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's what we are doing it. Nobody else has told us to do it. We found it out. Nobody told us. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That, that is within it. Krishna Tiwari: Within it. I agree. We are all the subject of law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We, we . . . exactly. When you say "we," you are also within it. Krishna Tiwari: Of course I am. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right. Let's go beyond this, and see what is beyond this, and that's what Swāmījī . . . Krishna Tiwari: Beyond, nobody knows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He knows. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know. Prabhupāda: No, beyond, therefore . . . no, no. Beyond . . . you see, as you say that you are within the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, I agree. We all of us are. Prabhupāda: So, somebody must be above law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily. Prabhupāda: No, must be. Otherwise there cannot be law. Krishna Tiwari: Well, law or not, the ones which we need reading the books or administration, these are not those laws. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, just like . . . Śyāmasundara: He means the word "law." What does it mean? Prabhupāda: Just like, just like we are within the state law. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is somebody above the state laws; otherwise how the state laws is made? Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know which . . . somebody, in which sense we try to imagine it. *Prabhupāda: Why not imagine it? As soon as you say law, there must be a law*-giver. *Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with that, but when you say law*-giver, see, people get different concepts. For, for . . . *Prabhupāda: Why different concepts? Law*-giver, just like . . . *Krishna Tiwari: For you, law*-giver may be something; *for me, law*-giver may be something else. *Prabhupāda: No, law*-giver is the same thing for you and me. Just like state laws comes from the government. Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. This comes from people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is an institution which is called government. It may be people. Krishna Tiwari: Well, which is made by people. Prabhupāda: But still, you, you are not controller of the state laws. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, in a way I am. In a way I am. Prabhupāda: No. Anyway, that is a different thing. But you cannot violate the state laws. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, we can avoid them. If there is a bad law, you can change. Prabhupāda: Then you'll be punished. The state laws give you law that you cannot drive your car on the left. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, quite right. Prabhupāda: So if you violate, you become a criminal. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Right. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are subordinate to the law, and the law is given by another, bigger person. Krishna Tiwari: No bigger person. Now, now, these laws are made for . . . Prabhupāda: How you say it is not bigger? Government is bigger than you. Krishna Tiwari: No, no, no. That's misconception, whatsoever. As a matter of fact that's the opposite . . . Prabhupāda: It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. You cannot say government is under you. You are under government. Krishna Tiwari: No, I didn't say government was under me, but I said the laws are made for us . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you try to understand? The government has given the register. Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. Government . . . Prabhupāda: Why do you say nothing? Why do you say nothing? You, why do you say nothing? What kind of scientist you are, you say the government is nothing? Krishna Tiwari: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know. You can say government is nothing in my room, but you'll say outside, you'll be arrested. (laughter) Krishna Tiwari: No, I can say outside too, because government is nothing. Prabhupāda: Why you say government is nothing? Krishna Tiwari: Government is by people. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you still you cannot say nothing. You are controlled by it. Krishna Tiwari: Well, controlled by it, by, by we, we agree with them, for our good or for what . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you agree. First of all you agree . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . that government gives law and you are under the law. Krishna Tiwari: I don't think I can agree with that. Prabhupāda: That is your obstinacy. Krishna Tiwari: No. It's not obstinacy at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're under the law. Krishna Tiwari: No, I, I, I . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: Because they . . . you are assuming government is . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you agree, agree this principle! Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Prabhupāda: What is this? (laughing) He says you are not under the government of law? Krishna Tiwari: That is different material. Prabhupāda: Why different matter? First of all you agree this! Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Government is us. We govern ourselves. Prabhupāda: You are. You are. You are ordered not to drive your car on the left: you must . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't. I don't want to. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are under the laws of the . . . we are following the same laws. If you violate the laws, of course, just like Prabhupāda says, if you drive on the right side . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well, in a minor sense it is true. But what I'm saying is that those laws came about because we decided it was good for us. Prabhupāda: That is . . . Krishna Tiwari: That's what I would say. Śyāmasundara: That's another consideration. He merely wants to define the word "law." You're using the word "natural law." He wants to understand what does the concept mean, "law." Devotee (1): This is an example. It's just an example. Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree, but so long we understand that government is not somebody from up . . . Śyāmasundara: In Russia it is. Krishna Tiwari: In Russia it is, and I don't care for it. Prabhupāda: That you don't care for it . . . the point is you are under nature's law. There must be somebody who is controlling nature's law. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. It could be. Śyāmasundara: Unless you think that you have made some by your vote or something. Krishna Tiwari: No, I never made that. No. That was the difference I was going to tell. If you'll give an example of a government, that is very different from the example of nature. Śyāmasundara: Yes. No analogy is perfect. So it's more like the Russian government, let's say. Right? Prabhupāda: That government, what does it mean, "government"? Government means also a person, like president. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Here in America, the government means President Nixon. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, okay, if you want to believe that. Prabhupāda: Why not believe? It is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree with it at all. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Why don't you agree? Then you are madman. You are a madman. (laughter) Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) No, no. I don't agree with you, Swāmījī, at all. Prabhupāda: No, no . . . yes. Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree. Because I don't think . . . I don't think that some . . . it is the government. Devotee (1): This is, this is, you know this is still going off the point. The point is still being made that you've already agreed with that you are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. Devotee (1): And that you did not take a hand in determining these laws. Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree. Devotee (1): He agrees that he's under the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: But I do not agree with some of your government orders. Devotee (1): That's fine. We'll keep it . . . Prabhupāda: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: All right . . . Prabhupāda: And the laws of nature . . . (break) Krishna Tiwari: From my opinion, something which I do know. *Prabhupāda: But we know, we know in this way, that Lord Kṛṣṇa says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working." Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know who, who, who, who said that . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know; *therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad*-gītā . You do not know therefore you learn it. *Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad*-gītā . I am aware of it. I know what is said there. Prabhupāda: Here it is said: You are coming from Indian brahmin family, you must know it. Krishna Tiwari: I know it. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Krishna Tiwari: I have also read it. I have Bhagavad*-gītā with me, always reading . . . Prabhupāda: So, yes, here is the controller of the, controller of the material nature. *Krishna Tiwari: Yes. But who? The book . . . you see, the difference is philosophically. As far as the philosophy of the Bhagavad*-gītā is concerned, fine. But when since we start talking about somebody controlling, and identifying somebody with somebody, I have troubles, as everybody else will. Prabhupāda: Well, no, no trouble. First of all, we have accepted that we are under the control of laws of nature. That is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Now we say . . . not we say, our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe. Me, I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: You don't know. Why don't you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said. Krishna Tiwari: I'm giving a scientific opinion, not my opinion. Scientists don't know. Prabhupāda: That scientists, but that the scientists are fools. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know that or that. Prabhupāda: Yes! They are fools. Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) We . . . I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe? Yes! Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes. Prabhupāda: No, no problem. This is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does. Prabhupāda: What? Krishna Tiwari: See, when we do not . . . we say we do not know, we are just being modest. Śyāmasundara: But he knows. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know about that. Śyāmasundara: But he's trying to tell if you'll listen. Krishna Tiwari: I, I have heard about those things, but I just don't know about the, how to believe . . . Prabhupāda: That means, that means you are unbeliever. Krishna Tiwari: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. That you are unbeliever. Krishna Tiwari: Not at all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If, if he doesn't know who He is, who is controlling? Prabhupāda: Then he is . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then he is admitting that there is a controller. You admit that there is a controller, but you don't know. You're telling us that you do not see Him and you do not know Him. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Well, you can say that. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You cannot make finalize . . . Krishna Tiwari: My point is I don't know, and I'm not too sure you know it either. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I know. I know, because we are getting from authority of Veda . We know. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, *Vedas* are there, but Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are, you . . . Krishna Tiwari: When I was in India, dying in smallpox, children were dying in smallpox, and we were going to all the knowledge of Veda people, and they were sending us to the temple, and we, we go and worship, and the people will die and, and they didn't tell us anything about some kind of injection which could protect it. And the scientist people who went and found out about nature, they found out something, and children are not dying anymore. They are not deformed. I don't know about that . . . Prabhupāda: You have stopped the death of children? Krishna Tiwari: We haven't stopped, but we sure don't see them blind because of smallpox. Śyāmasundara: Because they're all in the hospitals. Krishna Tiwari: Because of smallpox, we don't see them blinded. Śyāmasundara: But they die. Krishna Tiwari: Eventually everybody dies. Śyāmasundara: Yes. (all speak at once) Devotee: The thing that we're trying to get at is not the . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can save the child for the time being by some injection, but it is under the laws of nature, it will die. That's a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree. Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, is also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is government, democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law. *So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law*-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great ācāryas , great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting it, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Vedānta - sūtra . Vedānta - sūtra . Vedānta . Veda means knowledge. It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta - sūtra . In small codes, the things are given there in the Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā . Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Me. Krishna Tiwari: This is all imagination fine with me. I mean, this is all imagination and belief which is fine with me. I mean I have no objection . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is the imagination? Not here, imagination. When you learn from a, a . . . just like the law of gravitation, it is not imagination. Krishna Tiwari: Well law of gravitation . . . anything we know about gravity did not come from *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Not from Veda , but it comes from Mr. Newton. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, that what I was saying . . . Prabhupāda: So therefore you take the laws of gravitation from Mr. Newton. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is an authority. Krishna Tiwari: Well, Newton was wrong in many places, although nobody is authority. Things change. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept any authority. Krishna Tiwari: No, I don't, because once you accept an authority, you are just blindly following something which may be right, which may be absolutely wrong. But you will never find it out whether it was right or wrong. So blind faith in authority is the most mistaken path a person can ever take. Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. We don't say authority blind faith. Authority, that's not blind faith. Krishna Tiwari: And just . . . Prabhupāda: Now, just . . . suppose, to know your father, the authority is your mother. The mother says: "Here is your father." You follow blindly. Krishna Tiwari: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: No. It is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Your mother may say wrong. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, this is, this kind of examples are very . . . Prabhupāda: Why not this kind of example? Krishna Tiwari: They're unreal. Prabhupāda: Not unreal. The authority means you have to follow blindly. That is authority. That is my point. Krishna Tiwari: No, no. You believe something. You, you . . . Prabhupāda: Believe, because it is fact. Krishna Tiwari: You, whenever you use word "follow," "authority," you are talking of subjugation. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes! Yes! Krishna Tiwari: And subjugation is different than faith and belief. Prabhupāda: No, no. Sub . . . we believe in the subjugation, because . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well, I do not believe in subjugation. Prabhupāda: That is your madness, because you know. Krishna Tiwari: No, no. No way, no way you can say that. (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, no, don't be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: I am. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of "authority" words. Prabhupāda: You believe. You believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation? Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . that's a part of the nature. Difference between . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: . . . big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature. Prabhupāda: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It's automatic; it's, it's just a chain. It's a growth into. It's a pattern; it's no force. Prabhupāda: That automatic means just like you become criminal. Krishna Tiwari: That, that's the way progress, I'm a part of it. I'm not under or over anybody, and nobody is over, under, or above me. You are not under me. You are not over me. Śyāmasundara: You're under nature's law. Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swāmījī, you, all of us are. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Exactly. Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's up to you. Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. Yes. That's what I'm saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a matter of your choice. Accepting . . . Krishna Tiwari: It's a matter of personal choice. Prabhupāda: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority? Krishna Tiwari: I'm no, I'm no, I'm no subjugation to anyone. I'm a part of the nature. Prabhupāda: How is that you're not . . . Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old. Prabhupāda: You have here subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: I am no . . . I'm a part of a . . . nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static. Prabhupāda: Nature is not changing. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing. Prabhupāda: Not changing. Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it's changing, and even Lord Kṛṣṇa says it changes. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: I think He does. Prabhupāda: Nature is changing . . . *Krishna Tiwari: Ever changing. Ever*-changing world is the theme of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: There's always winter, there's always summer. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, and things have changed, much, much more than you have observed just by winter and spring, and the change, the change of the world, change of the nature is the Lord in *Gītā* philosophy itself. And I'm a great believer in *Gītā* philosophy, but I just don't buy subjugation or authority. Śyāmasundara: Then how can you . . . then you say, you say you can determine the age of the earth. Krishna Tiwari: I have not determined. I mean, thousands of scientists have combined. Śyāmasundara: You say you believe, you believe in some of the . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe that number very well. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Then you believe in authority. Krishna Tiwari: No, because I can make my own calculation using his things. Śyāmasundara: But you said that earth changes so much. *Krishna Tiwari: It does. It's ever*-changing. Śyāmasundara: Then how can you measure it? Krishna Tiwari: That you . . . there are ways to do it. I mean, that, the what is earth today will not be tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: Measurements are blunt. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, of course. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I, can I summarize to you what our position on authority is? What we're talking about is that simply you're saying we both agree that there is a very beautiful set*-up here. It's not accidental set-up . . . (indistinct) . . . intelligent laws of nature. We both agree that there must be something beyond it. Krishna Tiwari: I agree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You agree. Now you don't know beyond that. You have not . . . you say: "I don't have time," or somehow . . . Krishna Tiwari: No. I have lot of time, just I can't find. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say. Krishna Tiwari: No, that's, that's not . . . that's your words. That's not my words. My desire is to find more, much, much more than you can place this. (laughs) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Fine. But about that person, you see, you can find and find and find. You've got an outlet. You can get his hair and analyze. Each hair you can see millions of atoms. You can count the atoms in each hair. You can go further and further and further. But if you don't know that is an elephant, that's . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to know it is an elephant. You're right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we're talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, when . . . Krishna Tiwari: I think we don't have that much difference of opinion. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . which we know, this is the only process to find a creator, because we are . . . Krishna Tiwari: How you know that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . His subordinate . . . Krishna Tiwari: How you know that about? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are His subordinate. Now, and you will know, if you follow the process, you will know too. Krishna Tiwari: How? Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have to accept one by one. You have to accept first of all that He is the authority. Krishna Tiwari: Well, how can you accept somebody's authority without knowing them? Śyāmasundara: Like your mother. He gave the example. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Krishna Tiwari: No. I believed in her. That's all I said. Prabhupāda: You believe. Krishna Tiwari: If she says . . . if she says he's my father, I believe. Śyāmasundara: You think she's trying to cheat you? Krishna Tiwari: No, I'm not. That's why I believe her. The question of authority does not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you have to believe that there is an alternative beyond and above this law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Believe? I always said from the very beginning, beliefs are entirely different thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you have to understand where does this information come from. This doesn't come accidentally. It comes from the source of information. And this source of information we call the *Vedas* . It is not an accidental literature. Prabhupāda: The Veda means knowledge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge coming from, just like you were talking about. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And where is it coming from? It's coming, it's coming from the source. Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't . . . I think we have a, just a matter of words. You said knowledge is coming from source. I think knowledge is coming from people. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How could you know? Śyāmasundara: Your knowledge is always changing, just like the carbon-14 test. You say . . . you might had said a few months back, "Yes, I believe the earth is this old," and now you have to say: "No, I believe now the earth is half that old." So your knowledge is constantly changing. Krishna Tiwari: Because that's better and better. Śyāmasundara: Better and better. Have you improved the world? Do you think you've made one improvement in the world? Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has. We have made better than what others, everybody else combined, Christ and everybody else combined did, and Lord Kṛṣṇa included. Śyāmasundara: How do you measure that improvement? Prabhupāda: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. (laughter) Sir, first of all we must settle up this point, that we are all under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swāmījī, completely. Prabhupāda: Just hear me. Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point. Krishna Tiwari: Which probably I have nothing to add to. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but my one . . . Prabhupāda: Now, what is that person, that is another thing, but simply let us agree that we are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is also controlled by somebody. Krishna Tiwari: Well, we can say that . . . Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. Now, who is that person, or what is that substance which is controlling the law of nature, that is not yet known to the science. Krishna Tiwari: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. But we, either you say "believe" or you know, we know. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's okay. Okay, because everybody is free to believe in it. But one cannot say. Prabhupāda: That is the point. You don't believe that; we believe that. Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not true. I didn't say that. I agreed with it. But I do not know who the person is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: . . . when I will have . . . Prabhupāda: I don't say who, but you have to believe that there is a person and there is a superior authority. Krishna Tiwari: Person, I don't think so. It's not from person. Not in my opinion. Prabhupāda: Or not person; something, something superior to these laws of material nature. That you have to accept. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior. Krishna Tiwari: That's fine. I don't think we have any disagreement on that point. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us agree to that point. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let us agree to that point. Now what is that something, that remains, for the time being. I may say: "I know", you may say: "I don't believe in it." That is a different thing. But there must be something above the laws of nature which is controlling. That is all. Krishna Tiwari: I agree. Prabhupāda: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is . . . but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no . . . Prabhupāda: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say, "Here is the controller." Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one . . . oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other. Prabhupāda: No. We don't know by your process. Krishna Tiwari: By any process. Prabhupāda: That is your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference. Krishna Tiwari: That's where my trouble is, and I . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, your trouble must be there. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because you're godless. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your problem. Krishna Tiwari: Not true. Not true. Prabhupāda: That is your trouble. Krishna Tiwari: No, no . . . okay, go on saying like that. Fine. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are godless in this sense: because you are born in India, born in a brahmin family, and you do not believe Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Krishna Tiwari: Oh. I do not believe, but uh, I do believe that God is, but I do not understand whether the . . . (indistinct) . . . God or not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not understand, that is your godlessness. That is your godlessness, because . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, that's not my godlessness at all. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Śyāmasundara: Please listen while he explains the process of how to know God. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa means one who knows the Brahman. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So at least you are not a brāhmaṇa , because you do not know the Brahman. Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in classes anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: It's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there, that is your defect. One has to become a brāhmaṇa . One has to. But you're deviated from brāhmaṇism. Krishna Tiwari: I'm glad I did. (laughs) I'm really happy I did. I can assure you, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: If I meet God, I'll tell Him I'm glad I did. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all right. The demons always say like that. (devotees laugh). The demons say always like that. That is the fashion of the demons. Krishna Tiwari: No, it's not true. (laughing) You know, Swāmījī, what I am telling you, it's not true, because I know I'm a brahmin's son. Prabhupāda: You are. Krishna Tiwari: I know a lot about . . . Prabhupāda: You are. Krishna Tiwari: A lot about reading *Gītā* myself . . . Prabhupāda: You have become a demon. Krishna Tiwari: Huh? Prabhupāda: From brahmin you have become a demon. Krishna Tiwari: I have not become demon, and God knows it. I am much more better man, right now . . . Prabhupāda: Demons always know better than God. Krishna Tiwari: Is that right? I don't know better than God. Oh, I never said that. What I'm saying is God knows I'm not a bad man. I'm not a demon. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Demon's position is always to challenge God that, "I know better than You." Krishna Tiwari: I never said that. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That is demonism. That is demonism. Krishna Tiwari: No, Swāmījī, you did not hear me. Prabhupāda: Yes, I hear. I know. Krishna Tiwari: I said that God knows I'm not a demon. I did not say I am better than God. Śyāmasundara: Can we hear what he knows, what is his knowledge? What he thinks is his knowledge? What do you know . . .? Krishna Tiwari: Can I say about my concept of God and philosophy? Śyāmasundara: No, no, no, not that. That's speculation. Let's hear what you think . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, it's better speculation than yours. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Let's hear what you know through your scientific . . . you say you only accept knowledge which is scientifically verifiable. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I never said that. I was giving you . . . Prabhupāda: One thing is, that he has accepted that there is a controller of the nature. Now, what is that controller you do not know. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we know. That is the difference. You believe me or not, that is another thing. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. All right. Prabhupāda: I say that controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now you may disagree with me. But I have got evidence from the śāstra that Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all brahmins in India. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I accept Him too. Prabhupāda: Yes, that He is the supreme controller. I have got that authority—Rāmānujācārya, he is a brahmin ; Madhvācārya, he is a brahmin . Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is a brahmin . They're born in brahmin family. Śaṅkarācārya, he was a brāhmaṇa . Krishna Tiwari: I know all of them. Prabhupāda: So all of them have agreed. So in my background, we have got so many authorities, but when you say, you have no background. That is the difference between you and me. Krishna Tiwari: Swāmījī, our śāstra also say that, "You seek and you'll find." And, and, and "The person who seeketh himself . . ." Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: ". . . will find, will have a better chance of finding Me." Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Where is that said? Prabhupāda: We don't agree to that. We don't agree. Śyāmasundara: Where is that said? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'll show you many books where, where the philosophy has been . . . *Prabhupāda: Now we are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . Can you say any quotation? Krishna Tiwari: No, I do not follow them by quotation, by quotation. Prabhupāda: Then don't say śāstra . Don't say "our śāstra ." You don't believe in śāstra . You do not know śāstra . Therefore don't say "our śāstra ." You'll say in your scientific point of views. Don't say your śāstra . Śyāmasundara: Say what you have found through your scientific process. Tell us what knowledge is. Tell us what . . . how things are working, then. What is the, what is the process of scientific . . . Prabhupāda: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific . . . Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it. Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know. Śyāmasundara: So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We're saying that there's a process which is perfect, and it's a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you're saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he's satisfied, he's peaceful within, and we can understand that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to . . . to understand themselves and what's around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method? In other words, has this process helped you to be actually filled with knowledge and bliss, or has it simply sent you into more questioning and more doubt until you come to a point of what we were discussing the other day, the Heisenberg's theory of uncertainty? Ultimately you come to the theory of uncertainty. So we're saying, when you come to this point, then you may as well just relax and try to have a submissive attitude—or any scientist—and try to receive knowledge which is descending. Prabhupāda: Another, another thing is, he says, he says that he does not know what is there beyond this material nature. But he's still satisfied with that imperfect knowledge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Śyāmasundara: That's right. You should not be satisfied with that imperfect knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Wait a minute. Prabhupāda: To be satisfied with imperfect knowledge is the qualification of an animal. Krishna Tiwari: Correct. But this was your words. It were not mine. I didn't say that I was satisfied. You presumed I was satisfied. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, yes. You said that we know artificially; we don't know philosophy. Krishna Tiwari: I never said that we're not trying to find out. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right, then, and you have tried, and you . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we are still trying to . . . you have to try very hard to find out these things. My question is, when I say . . . wait a minute, let me talk something. When I say I do not know, that does not necessarily mean that others know. And you are taking this real point. I am saying in my humbleness that I do not know, and you come up, "Well, I know that." Because I don't know, you are supposed to know. That's not true. I just say you don't know either. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, that . . . but you cannot say, also, because you do not know, others do not know. You cannot say. Krishna Tiwari: No. I never said that. I don't . . . I didn't say that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You did. You just did. Krishna Tiwari: No, but you'll come back and tell me that, "I know." Then I cannot believe you that because I said I don't know, you have to know. Prabhupāda: "I, I know" means I know from the authority, who knows. Krishna Tiwari: How? Which authority is that? Prabhupāda: That, I say, I present this, *Vedas* authority. You don't . . . Krishna Tiwari: (indistinct) . . . with those. Prabhupāda: You do not believe in the *Vedas* , that is a different thing. But I am saying I know from the authority. Krishna Tiwari: I have seen that. I have seen . . . I have lived in India. Prabhupāda: That is my position. Krishna Tiwari: I have lived in everywhere. If *Vedas* were all that great and we have followed *Vedas* for thousand of years . . . Prabhupāda: No. You might have . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . look what it has done to the country. Prabhupāda: You might have faith . . . Śyāmasundara: It is still there. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* are still . . . Krishna Tiwari: In what situation? Prabhupāda: It is not what situation. It is what situation for you. You do not believe. Krishna Tiwari: After the crisis is doing much better. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* , authorities, they have been accepted by all the ācāryas , by the, all the brahmins , all great personalities in India. That is our authority. Now, you don't believe in authority. That is you have become deviated from *Vedas* . That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: Well, if you want to say that point. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion. Prabhupāda: That we have got our authority. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion, because I look with eyes open; I make my own mind. Prabhupāda: This opinion, it is your opinion. Because you are Indian, I am also Indian. I believe you don't believe. Krishna Tiwari: Sure, I do not believe. Prabhupāda: So it is your opinion. Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in the strict following of every word . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view. Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one. Śyāmasundara: You said once, in a court of law, if there are two points of view at the final judgment, it has to be judged by the results of which point of view. So if you, if you judge by the results of our process and his process which people are . . . have attained to some kind of perfect understanding of themselves, some kind of satisfaction with life, you have to point to our process and say that ours gets the balance of favorable opinion, because in your process, no one has been made happy. Krishna Tiwari: How does say that in your process anybody has been made happy? Prabhupāda: Everyone who follows Vedic injunctions, they're happy. Śyāmasundara: You ask me. Krishna Tiwari: You ask me. I'm very happy. Prabhupāda: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. (laughing) Again it's the same thing. Prabhupāda: You said, you said . . . no. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal. Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is. Prabhupāda: Imperfect knowledge and happiness. Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you're talking about. You cannot be perfect either. Prabhupāda: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . no. You have no such power. You have no such superpower. Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have no such superpower, but . . . Prabhupāda: You say that you do not know anything beyond this material laws of nature. That you do not know. Therefore you do not know what is that superpower, which is controlling. But I know the superpower. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's my question. I don't know whether you know that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference. Śyāmasundara: So, you should not make up the conclusion that just because you don't know, that someone else also doesn't know. Krishna Tiwari: No, I agree with you completely, but my point of this is that this is the difference between religious and the scientific approach of finding the superpower. When science finds . . . Prabhupāda: This is not religious. Krishna Tiwari: Whatever it is. Prabhupāda: It is not faith. Krishna Tiwari: Whatever. Prabhupāda: It is fact. It is science. Krishna Tiwari: Science. It is this kind of science then, because there is no way to prove it. When a person finds . . . Prabhupāda: There is proof. There is proof. Krishna Tiwari: . . . anywhere in the world . . . Prabhupāda: You don't say there is no proof. Krishna Tiwari: . . . in science, you can do the same thing in your place. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof. Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it? Prabhupāda: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it? Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge . . . Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Śyāmasundara: No. The process is given. If, he, he . . . Prabhupāda: Just . . . we, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either. Prabhupāda: I, nobody . . . I say know, still you say nobody knows. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That's your belief, but I don't think you know that. Prabhupāda: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief. Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don't know. Prabhupāda: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding? Krishna Tiwari: (laughs) Because there is only one each of us can do. Prabhupāda: That is the idea. So if you give so much importance to your method of understanding, why don't you give more importance to our method of understanding? Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have been seeing the results of . . . Prabhupāda: Your method is imperfect. I have seen. Krishna Tiwari: But others is more imperfect. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: Others is . . . Prabhupāda: No, others are perfect. Krishna Tiwari: Very imperfect, Swāmījī. Very imperfect. Prabhupāda: No, very perfect. Very perfect. Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I'm saying to . . . well, that's what I'm saying. Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection? Krishna Tiwari: What? Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection? Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 16, 1973, Los Angeles (Conversation with Krishna Tiwari - Molecular biologist) Prabhupāda: Proper. Kanpur proper. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. We were originally from a village, but we're living in Kanpur now. Prabhupāda: Kanpur. It's a big city. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Industrial city. Krishna Tiwari: My name is Krishna Tiwari. Prabhupāda: Tiwari. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. In Kanpur I had an old friend—he was just like my father—Tiwari. Very rich man. They have got their temple. Krishna Tiwari: Which place? I probably know it. Prabhupāda: In Kanpur there is a big temple that belongs to the Tiwari family. It is famous temple. Many people go there to visit. Krishna Tiwari: I haven't lived there too long. Lucknow, we came to Lucknow, and . . . *Prabhupāda: The temple is very old temple. So the proprietors of the temple are brahmins , Tiwari. So the eldest member, old Mr. Tiwari, was a very nice, great devotee. At home he had Deity, Rukmiṇī*-Kṛṣṇa. He was worshiping at home Rukmiṇī-Kṛṣṇa, Dvārakā. *Śyāmasundara: Mr. Tiwari is a well*-known scientist. Biolo . . . biologist? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecular biology Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor in U.C. . . . University of California at Irvine. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know how famous, but . . . (laughs) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying biology and molecular biology. You were in University of Southern California before, right? Krishna Tiwari: No, University of California to Los Angeles. UCLA. Prabhupāda: So: So biology . . . biology means the scientist dealing in living entities? Krishna Tiwari: Right. Prabhupāda: So I don't think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true. *Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata*-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this? Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughs) I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little. Prabhupāda: That is real scientist. Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the other hand . . . of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both . . . or all the people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious man. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two. Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be difference. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he got those data; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that. Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body, and the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you be—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be—their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. *Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemist, physicist, engineer, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point . . . angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). This is . . . this we can simply imagine: one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don't think any scientist can have any measuring instrument. Krishna Tiwari: I think that can be measured. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: I think they can measure that. Prabhupāda: Acha ? Krishna Tiwari: It can be measured. Prabhupāda: It can be measured? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: It can be measured; otherwise how it is said? Krishna Tiwari: Very easily measured. Prabhupāda: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul. Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there's no soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: Because they don't know how to look for it. Prabhupāda: Therefore, how they'll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure. Śyāmasundara: They can't find it. Prabhupāda: They cannot find it. Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it. Prabhupāda: Yes. We . . . I said, this is the measurement. Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the śāstra . Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then? Prabhupāda: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there. Krishna Tiwari: What is the measurement? *Prabhupāda: The one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's very easy to measure. Prabhupāda: So why don't you find it? Krishna Tiwari: But that's probably the reason. Nothing is there, just a number, because . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Krishna Tiwari: This is just a number, because one*-thousandth part of hair is just a big number that . . . *Prabhupāda: Not one thousandth. One ten*-thousandth. Krishna Tiwari: That doesn't matter. You can make it one millionth. Prabhupāda: How's that? Krishna Tiwari: It will be a measure of a distance, which is very easy. That cannot be a soul. Prabhupāda: So . . . no. That cannot be so easily . . . it is definitely said, jīvaḥ bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Jīva means solo . . . soul. Soul's measurement is given there in the śāstra . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, but what are the . . . this is the . . . I don't know. This is the measurement, one thousandth of a . . . *Prabhupāda: One ten*-thousandth. Krishna Tiwari: . . . of a tip of hair? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is . . . I don't understand that, because that will be . . . at that time I think it was all right, because people thought nobody could measure one thousandth . . . ten*-thousandth of the tip of a hair. Prabhupāda: I . . . we don't say people could not measure. People could measure. People measured; therefore it is, the measurement is given there. It is not that people could not measure. People measured it, definitely, and then gave it—"This is the measure." Krishna Tiwari: Okay, so what you are trying to say? What symbolically it means, very small. Is that what it means? Is that what it means? Prabhupāda: Very small . . . that small part is there in every body. The soul is there. Now they, without finding it, they say soul is nirākāra : there is no measurement. That is my point. I say there is ākāra , form. Krishna Tiwari: There is a form of soul, according to you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they say there is no form. That is my point. Krishna Tiwari: Well, they don't know, probably, at this moment. But I don't . . . I . . . we have a trouble, at least I have a trouble, in understanding whether anybody else knows about soul. According to you . . . Prabhupāda: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the śāstra and we try to perceive, that's all. But there is something. That measurement very . . . may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point. Krishna Tiwari: Right. But I mean, with due respect to śāstras , after all, in my opinion śāstras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have . . . Prabhupāda: Not five thousand years. Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand? Prabhupāda: No. You cannot calculate. Krishna Tiwari: How . . . well, this is a different game then. Prabhupāda: No. We have got . . . because this, if we take on the strength of śāstra , we understand that after the birth of Brahmā . . . Brahmā created this universe. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Prabhupāda: But, uh, Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. I agree with that. Prabhupāda: So now, at the present moment, we are in one day's . . . Brahmā's one day we have passed only half. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). So one yuga is calculated to be forty-three lakhs of years. Now . . . Krishna Tiwari: That is also 4.3 million years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: That is 4.3 million. Prabhupāda: Yes, and multiplied by 1000. Krishna Tiwari: OK, we've got 4.3 billion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the duration of daytime, one daytime of Brahmā. And similarly calculate night, similarly you calculate, that is twenty*-four hours, one day and night. Similarly, you calculate one month. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I understand that, Swāmījī, but, uh . . . Prabhupāda: In this way he lives for one hundred years, according to these calculation. Krishna Tiwari: I can understand that. But, see, we do know. We do know the age of the earth, and we know better than anybody else does. Prabhupāda: How can you know? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we know. We have our own measurements, which are very reliable. Different people will come up with the same number, and we do not have to depend upon any, you know, roundabout answer. Prabhupāda: No, we have to depend . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, we don't. Prabhupāda: . . . because your theories changes every year. Krishna Tiwari: No . . . well it changes, (laughter) because it is very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to depend. Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change . . . Prabhupāda: "Change is the law of nature," that's fine . . . Krishna Tiwari: And therefore . . . Prabhupāda: . . . but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: That is true, but you . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "I know seventh year. I do not know what is going to happen ninth, eighth year." Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not the point. Point is that . . . point is how to . . . how long this earth where we all live . . . now we're talking about only this earth. How long this earth, we know, existed? Prabhupāda: I'm not talking of the earth. I'm talking of the whole universe. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Well, we'll talk about one object first, before we talk about universe next. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That means you are not in the knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: No. But Swāmījī, you want to talk about something, you want to start from something which is easy to comprehend and go further. How is it . . . Prabhupāda: Now, the whole universe is one unit. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with philosophy . . . Prabhupāda: If you study my whole body, you cannot begin studying my nails. Krishna Tiwari: But you have to study nails. Prabhupāda: That we . . . that will include. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair. Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere. Prabhupāda: No. That is . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientific process. Prabhupāda: Scientific process, you begin studying . . . suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say? Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I . . . can I have my some doubts? Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That because you are studying my body, you begin studying from my hair? Krishna Tiwari: Some place. Some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace. Prabhupāda: You think that is, uh, scientific? Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study . . . if they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul. Krishna Tiwari: But how we know about the soul? Prabhupāda: We know from the Vedic knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well somebody said there is a soul, but the question is, unless we all realize, and there is a way of . . . Prabhupāda: We realize. Everyone realize. As soon as the soul goes away, your body is lump of matter. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, (laughs) this is just dead. I mean, I don't know whether soul went away or not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You don't know, but I know. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's your belief. Prabhupāda: No belief. I'm taking . . . Krishna Tiwari: That's your belief. Prabhupāda: I'm taking my . . . Krishna Tiwari: It's my belief too that there's a soul, (laughing) but I, scientifically, I don't know. Prabhupāda: Your, your, your belief is also based on some scientific data. Krishna Tiwari: No. No. Beliefs can be anything. But I can believe he's out to kill me. He can believe I'm a bad man. Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: Belief has no foundation. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily foundation. Prabhupāda: Belief, belief is there. Fact is not belief. Fact is fact. Krishna Tiwari: Well, fact has to be established. Prabhupāda: Established? It is established. I say, I say that this is the distinction between dead man and living man. Krishna Tiwari: Will it extend to animals also? Prabhupāda: Anyone. Anyone. Krishna Tiwari: According to our Hindu philosophy, I understand everything has a soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everything. Everybody has a soul. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that makes me doubtful, because if I go into my laboratory and I can create as many souls I like. I can breed animals, as many as them I like. Prabhupāda: You cannot create. The souls are already there. You can find out . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well I . . . then I'm putting a lot of pressure on God. Every time I make lot of rats, I'm asking for rat souls. Prabhupāda: Rat has soul, yes. Krishna Tiwari: I know, but that's . . . why, why then I can do it? When I can . . . whenever I want them to be here, they will be here, not on the will of God. According to our concept of soul . . . Śyāmasundara: If he's in a laboratory and he's breeding rats, he's making rats have sex life and have babies, then he is controlling the souls of those rats. Prabhupāda: He is not controlling. He is controlling the body. Krishna Tiwari: Well, so body has soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: So I'm controlling the souls. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: No? I'm making them come. Prabhupāda: No. You cannot, you can . . . you cannot control the soul. Krishna Tiwari: I understand that. Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . otherwise, when the soul is gone from the body . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . you could replace one soul. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's true. I mean that, I, uh, if you go . . . but my point is that the rat has a soul, and if God has something to do with the soul, then I should have no control of it. Prabhupāda: Apart from God. Apart . . . we're not going to God. Just like here . . . Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Let's talk about soul. Prabhupāda: You are studying the hair. Your point is you're studying . . . soul is the part of God, mamaivāṁśo (BG 15.7). God says: "The soul is My part and parcel." Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he's a dead body. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are biologist. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh? Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium. Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) What is that? Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How? How is this? Krishna Tiwari: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How it comes? Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And this is not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lot of variables. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Going back to your example about rats . . . *Krishna Tiwari: Uh*-huh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . if I give you . . . you say you are creating rats. I give you this plant, can you create a rat from it? Krishna Tiwari: No. That is transformation of matter. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, that's . . . that's what creation means. If I give you nothing, can you create rat from it? Krishna Tiwari: No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So all you're doing is playing with established laws of nature . . . Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . to create rats. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you're not creating anything. Krishna Tiwari: No. Not . . . I'm not . . . I'm perpetuating it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not . . . Krishna Tiwari: At my will. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, you have given . . . you're given a will to perpetuate . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . to, to change a few things. *Krishna Tiwari: Uh*-huh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A few things. You cannot perpetuate a rat out of that matter. Krishna Tiwari: Of course not. Of course not. Nobody else can. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, and all you can do is study that established law of nature by perpetuation of rats. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah but, yeah but . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: And that law of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . is my, is under my control. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's not under your control. Krishna Tiwari: I can change a rat. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That as much as you go along with that law of nature . . . Krishna Tiwari: No. No. For example, we have found out the law of nature, yes. That is always the law of nature, and that is supreme. That I agree. But, but I can manipulate that law of nature as today, not me, with the help of all other scientists, which nobody else could do ever. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation is within that law of nature. Your manipulation fits within that law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Of course. Of course, I agree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation, your intelligence . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot manipulate the law of nature. You are under the law. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree. Śyāmasundara: You can't bring a dead body back to life. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. But on other hand, on the other hand . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: So let's go from there. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the limit. Prabhupāda: Then why don't . . . you cannot bring the dead body into life? Krishna Tiwari: I don't think this is the point of argument, because I have, I have already, I have already agreed that the body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this is, this is the point, this is . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, no, wait, listen, because the point is this. I agree that the living gets dead and no science can revive it. Prabhupāda: Therefore, what is your science? Krishna Tiwari: Fine. But what I'm saying is that when the question of soul is something which is not at the moment visible to us or anybody. There is no indication that there is soul, because if there is soul in everything, I would imagine that that will not be controllable under laboratory conditions. If soul made us, then we should not be able to make differences amongst us. If, if the soul was the prime force, and was an important force, then such differences of very magnified nature as exists between one species, between the same species, for example human beings, or between the rats, they will not be under the control of the human beings. One could make rats with white eyes, same rat can be bred and made with blue eyes. Or rat can be made white to black. Now these knowledge, this knowledge which man has achieved by studying the law of nature would never have arrived if we just believed in total something which has been said. *Śyāmasundara: What . . . what good are blue*-eyed rats? Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is a different point. (laughter) What good is life? What good is anything? But that, that point is out of the question. Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not creating anything new. Krishna Tiwari: I never said I did create anything new, but I changed those recognized things at will. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the laws of mutations. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, at will, at will, made by my own, which, which God . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. No. That will is not your own. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is not. Krishna Tiwari: Sure it is. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is limited. You . . . can you will to jump up, go to another star? Krishna Tiwari: No. No. We don't know yet, that. Prabhupāda: So you don't know so many things. Krishna Tiwari: Of course. I agree that on the first place. Prabhupāda: But we know. Krishna Tiwari: No. That's the difference. (laughter) What we do not know, we are ready to agree that we don't know. The trouble comes when people know nothing and they say they do know. Prabhupāda: No, we know. Now why . . . how do you say no? We know. Krishna Tiwari: No. This is your belief, and I'm not . . . Prabhupāda: It is not belief. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can believe that too. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe too, but this is . . . belief, as somebody's belief. Say I may believe so many things, as you do, as Swāmījī does, as everybody else does. Prabhupāda: What is your explanation between dead body and living body? Krishna Tiwari: As I said, you see, it's a very complex thing, and I would not say something that I know from which probably I don't know. What we could measure in a dead body is that we see many things, you know. Things, say organs, are not working . . . Prabhupāda: Apart from the soul, how . . . what is your explanation of this dead body? Krishna Tiwari: We point that the organs get diseased, reactions do not take place as they do, and the nature of . . . law of nature takes over. We are the great believers of law of nature, better than other religious people. We believe law of nature more than anybody else does. Śyāmasundara: But you think you can control the law of nature? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I think so. I think so. This, this is the great . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Beyond the law of nature or within the law? Krishna Tiwari: Within the law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the law of nature. Therefore you can never control it. Krishna Tiwari: Why not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within it, you're controlling it within it. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, what is control there? Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's what we are doing it. Nobody else has told us to do it. We found it out. Nobody told us. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That, that is within it. Krishna Tiwari: Within it. I agree. We are all the subject of law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We, we . . . exactly. When you say "we," you are also within it. Krishna Tiwari: Of course I am. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right. Let's go beyond this, and see what is beyond this, and that's what Swāmījī . . . Krishna Tiwari: Beyond, nobody knows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He knows. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know. Prabhupāda: No, beyond, therefore . . . no, no. Beyond . . . you see, as you say that you are within the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, I agree. We all of us are. Prabhupāda: So, somebody must be above law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily. Prabhupāda: No, must be. Otherwise there cannot be law. Krishna Tiwari: Well, law or not, the ones which we need reading the books or administration, these are not those laws. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, just like . . . Śyāmasundara: He means the word "law." What does it mean? Prabhupāda: Just like, just like we are within the state law. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is somebody above the state laws; otherwise how the state laws is made? Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know which . . . somebody, in which sense we try to imagine it. *Prabhupāda: Why not imagine it? As soon as you say law, there must be a law*-giver. *Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with that, but when you say law*-giver, see, people get different concepts. For, for . . . *Prabhupāda: Why different concepts? Law*-giver, just like . . . *Krishna Tiwari: For you, law*-giver may be something; *for me, law*-giver may be something else. *Prabhupāda: No, law*-giver is the same thing for you and me. Just like state laws comes from the government. Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. This comes from people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is an institution which is called government. It may be people. Krishna Tiwari: Well, which is made by people. Prabhupāda: But still, you, you are not controller of the state laws. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, in a way I am. In a way I am. Prabhupāda: No. Anyway, that is a different thing. But you cannot violate the state laws. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, we can avoid them. If there is a bad law, you can change. Prabhupāda: Then you'll be punished. The state laws give you law that you cannot drive your car on the left. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, quite right. Prabhupāda: So if you violate, you become a criminal. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Right. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are subordinate to the law, and the law is given by another, bigger person. Krishna Tiwari: No bigger person. Now, now, these laws are made for . . . Prabhupāda: How you say it is not bigger? Government is bigger than you. Krishna Tiwari: No, no, no. That's misconception, whatsoever. As a matter of fact that's the opposite . . . Prabhupāda: It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. You cannot say government is under you. You are under government. Krishna Tiwari: No, I didn't say government was under me, but I said the laws are made for us . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you try to understand? The government has given the register. Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. Government . . . Prabhupāda: Why do you say nothing? Why do you say nothing? You, why do you say nothing? What kind of scientist you are, you say the government is nothing? Krishna Tiwari: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know. You can say government is nothing in my room, but you'll say outside, you'll be arrested. (laughter) Krishna Tiwari: No, I can say outside too, because government is nothing. Prabhupāda: Why you say government is nothing? Krishna Tiwari: Government is by people. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you still you cannot say nothing. You are controlled by it. Krishna Tiwari: Well, controlled by it, by, by we, we agree with them, for our good or for what . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you agree. First of all you agree . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . that government gives law and you are under the law. Krishna Tiwari: I don't think I can agree with that. Prabhupāda: That is your obstinacy. Krishna Tiwari: No. It's not obstinacy at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're under the law. Krishna Tiwari: No, I, I, I . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: Because they . . . you are assuming government is . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you agree, agree this principle! Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Prabhupāda: What is this? (laughing) He says you are not under the government of law? Krishna Tiwari: That is different material. Prabhupāda: Why different matter? First of all you agree this! Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Government is us. We govern ourselves. Prabhupāda: You are. You are. You are ordered not to drive your car on the left: you must . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't. I don't want to. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are under the laws of the . . . we are following the same laws. If you violate the laws, of course, just like Prabhupāda says, if you drive on the right side . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well, in a minor sense it is true. But what I'm saying is that those laws came about because we decided it was good for us. Prabhupāda: That is . . . Krishna Tiwari: That's what I would say. Śyāmasundara: That's another consideration. He merely wants to define the word "law." You're using the word "natural law." He wants to understand what does the concept mean, "law." Devotee (1): This is an example. It's just an example. Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree, but so long we understand that government is not somebody from up . . . Śyāmasundara: In Russia it is. Krishna Tiwari: In Russia it is, and I don't care for it. Prabhupāda: That you don't care for it . . . the point is you are under nature's law. There must be somebody who is controlling nature's law. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. It could be. Śyāmasundara: Unless you think that you have made some by your vote or something. Krishna Tiwari: No, I never made that. No. That was the difference I was going to tell. If you'll give an example of a government, that is very different from the example of nature. Śyāmasundara: Yes. No analogy is perfect. So it's more like the Russian government, let's say. Right? Prabhupāda: That government, what does it mean, "government"? Government means also a person, like president. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Here in America, the government means President Nixon. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, okay, if you want to believe that. Prabhupāda: Why not believe? It is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree with it at all. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Why don't you agree? Then you are madman. You are a madman. (laughter) Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) No, no. I don't agree with you, Swāmījī, at all. Prabhupāda: No, no . . . yes. Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree. Because I don't think . . . I don't think that some . . . it is the government. Devotee (1): This is, this is, you know this is still going off the point. The point is still being made that you've already agreed with that you are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. Devotee (1): And that you did not take a hand in determining these laws. Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree. Devotee (1): He agrees that he's under the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: But I do not agree with some of your government orders. Devotee (1): That's fine. We'll keep it . . . Prabhupāda: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: All right . . . Prabhupāda: And the laws of nature . . . (break) Krishna Tiwari: From my opinion, something which I do know. *Prabhupāda: But we know, we know in this way, that Lord Kṛṣṇa says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working." Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know who, who, who, who said that . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know; *therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad*-gītā . You do not know therefore you learn it. *Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad*-gītā . I am aware of it. I know what is said there. Prabhupāda: Here it is said: You are coming from Indian brahmin family, you must know it. Krishna Tiwari: I know it. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Krishna Tiwari: I have also read it. I have Bhagavad*-gītā with me, always reading . . . Prabhupāda: So, yes, here is the controller of the, controller of the material nature. *Krishna Tiwari: Yes. But who? The book . . . you see, the difference is philosophically. As far as the philosophy of the Bhagavad*-gītā is concerned, fine. But when since we start talking about somebody controlling, and identifying somebody with somebody, I have troubles, as everybody else will. Prabhupāda: Well, no, no trouble. First of all, we have accepted that we are under the control of laws of nature. That is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Now we say . . . not we say, our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe. Me, I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: You don't know. Why don't you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said. Krishna Tiwari: I'm giving a scientific opinion, not my opinion. Scientists don't know. Prabhupāda: That scientists, but that the scientists are fools. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know that or that. Prabhupāda: Yes! They are fools. Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) We . . . I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe? Yes! Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes. Prabhupāda: No, no problem. This is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does. Prabhupāda: What? Krishna Tiwari: See, when we do not . . . we say we do not know, we are just being modest. Śyāmasundara: But he knows. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know about that. Śyāmasundara: But he's trying to tell if you'll listen. Krishna Tiwari: I, I have heard about those things, but I just don't know about the, how to believe . . . Prabhupāda: That means, that means you are unbeliever. Krishna Tiwari: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. That you are unbeliever. Krishna Tiwari: Not at all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If, if he doesn't know who He is, who is controlling? Prabhupāda: Then he is . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then he is admitting that there is a controller. You admit that there is a controller, but you don't know. You're telling us that you do not see Him and you do not know Him. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Well, you can say that. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You cannot make finalize . . . Krishna Tiwari: My point is I don't know, and I'm not too sure you know it either. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I know. I know, because we are getting from authority of Veda . We know. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, *Vedas* are there, but Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are, you . . . Krishna Tiwari: When I was in India, dying in smallpox, children were dying in smallpox, and we were going to all the knowledge of Veda people, and they were sending us to the temple, and we, we go and worship, and the people will die and, and they didn't tell us anything about some kind of injection which could protect it. And the scientist people who went and found out about nature, they found out something, and children are not dying anymore. They are not deformed. I don't know about that . . . Prabhupāda: You have stopped the death of children? Krishna Tiwari: We haven't stopped, but we sure don't see them blind because of smallpox. Śyāmasundara: Because they're all in the hospitals. Krishna Tiwari: Because of smallpox, we don't see them blinded. Śyāmasundara: But they die. Krishna Tiwari: Eventually everybody dies. Śyāmasundara: Yes. (all speak at once) Devotee: The thing that we're trying to get at is not the . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can save the child for the time being by some injection, but it is under the laws of nature, it will die. That's a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree. Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, is also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is government, democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law. *So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law*-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great ācāryas , great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting it, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Vedānta - sūtra . Vedānta - sūtra . Vedānta . Veda means knowledge. It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta - sūtra . In small codes, the things are given there in the Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā . Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Me. Krishna Tiwari: This is all imagination fine with me. I mean, this is all imagination and belief which is fine with me. I mean I have no objection . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is the imagination? Not here, imagination. When you learn from a, a . . . just like the law of gravitation, it is not imagination. Krishna Tiwari: Well law of gravitation . . . anything we know about gravity did not come from *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Not from Veda , but it comes from Mr. Newton. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, that what I was saying . . . Prabhupāda: So therefore you take the laws of gravitation from Mr. Newton. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is an authority. Krishna Tiwari: Well, Newton was wrong in many places, although nobody is authority. Things change. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept any authority. Krishna Tiwari: No, I don't, because once you accept an authority, you are just blindly following something which may be right, which may be absolutely wrong. But you will never find it out whether it was right or wrong. So blind faith in authority is the most mistaken path a person can ever take. Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. We don't say authority blind faith. Authority, that's not blind faith. Krishna Tiwari: And just . . . Prabhupāda: Now, just . . . suppose, to know your father, the authority is your mother. The mother says: "Here is your father." You follow blindly. Krishna Tiwari: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: No. It is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Your mother may say wrong. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, this is, this kind of examples are very . . . Prabhupāda: Why not this kind of example? Krishna Tiwari: They're unreal. Prabhupāda: Not unreal. The authority means you have to follow blindly. That is authority. That is my point. Krishna Tiwari: No, no. You believe something. You, you . . . Prabhupāda: Believe, because it is fact. Krishna Tiwari: You, whenever you use word "follow," "authority," you are talking of subjugation. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes! Yes! Krishna Tiwari: And subjugation is different than faith and belief. Prabhupāda: No, no. Sub . . . we believe in the subjugation, because . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well, I do not believe in subjugation. Prabhupāda: That is your madness, because you know. Krishna Tiwari: No, no. No way, no way you can say that. (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, no, don't be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: I am. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of "authority" words. Prabhupāda: You believe. You believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation? Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . that's a part of the nature. Difference between . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: . . . big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature. Prabhupāda: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It's automatic; it's, it's just a chain. It's a growth into. It's a pattern; it's no force. Prabhupāda: That automatic means just like you become criminal. Krishna Tiwari: That, that's the way progress, I'm a part of it. I'm not under or over anybody, and nobody is over, under, or above me. You are not under me. You are not over me. Śyāmasundara: You're under nature's law. Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swāmījī, you, all of us are. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Exactly. Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's up to you. Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. Yes. That's what I'm saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a matter of your choice. Accepting . . . Krishna Tiwari: It's a matter of personal choice. Prabhupāda: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority? Krishna Tiwari: I'm no, I'm no, I'm no subjugation to anyone. I'm a part of the nature. Prabhupāda: How is that you're not . . . Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old. Prabhupāda: You have here subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: I am no . . . I'm a part of a . . . nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static. Prabhupāda: Nature is not changing. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing. Prabhupāda: Not changing. Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it's changing, and even Lord Kṛṣṇa says it changes. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: I think He does. Prabhupāda: Nature is changing . . . *Krishna Tiwari: Ever changing. Ever*-changing world is the theme of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: There's always winter, there's always summer. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, and things have changed, much, much more than you have observed just by winter and spring, and the change, the change of the world, change of the nature is the Lord in *Gītā* philosophy itself. And I'm a great believer in *Gītā* philosophy, but I just don't buy subjugation or authority. Śyāmasundara: Then how can you . . . then you say, you say you can determine the age of the earth. Krishna Tiwari: I have not determined. I mean, thousands of scientists have combined. Śyāmasundara: You say you believe, you believe in some of the . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe that number very well. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Then you believe in authority. Krishna Tiwari: No, because I can make my own calculation using his things. Śyāmasundara: But you said that earth changes so much. *Krishna Tiwari: It does. It's ever*-changing. Śyāmasundara: Then how can you measure it? Krishna Tiwari: That you . . . there are ways to do it. I mean, that, the what is earth today will not be tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: Measurements are blunt. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, of course. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I, can I summarize to you what our position on authority is? What we're talking about is that simply you're saying we both agree that there is a very beautiful set*-up here. It's not accidental set-up . . . (indistinct) . . . intelligent laws of nature. We both agree that there must be something beyond it. Krishna Tiwari: I agree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You agree. Now you don't know beyond that. You have not . . . you say: "I don't have time," or somehow . . . Krishna Tiwari: No. I have lot of time, just I can't find. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say. Krishna Tiwari: No, that's, that's not . . . that's your words. That's not my words. My desire is to find more, much, much more than you can place this. (laughs) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Fine. But about that person, you see, you can find and find and find. You've got an outlet. You can get his hair and analyze. Each hair you can see millions of atoms. You can count the atoms in each hair. You can go further and further and further. But if you don't know that is an elephant, that's . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to know it is an elephant. You're right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we're talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, when . . . Krishna Tiwari: I think we don't have that much difference of opinion. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . which we know, this is the only process to find a creator, because we are . . . Krishna Tiwari: How you know that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . His subordinate . . . Krishna Tiwari: How you know that about? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are His subordinate. Now, and you will know, if you follow the process, you will know too. Krishna Tiwari: How? Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have to accept one by one. You have to accept first of all that He is the authority. Krishna Tiwari: Well, how can you accept somebody's authority without knowing them? Śyāmasundara: Like your mother. He gave the example. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Krishna Tiwari: No. I believed in her. That's all I said. Prabhupāda: You believe. Krishna Tiwari: If she says . . . if she says he's my father, I believe. Śyāmasundara: You think she's trying to cheat you? Krishna Tiwari: No, I'm not. That's why I believe her. The question of authority does not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you have to believe that there is an alternative beyond and above this law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Believe? I always said from the very beginning, beliefs are entirely different thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you have to understand where does this information come from. This doesn't come accidentally. It comes from the source of information. And this source of information we call the *Vedas* . It is not an accidental literature. Prabhupāda: The Veda means knowledge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge coming from, just like you were talking about. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And where is it coming from? It's coming, it's coming from the source. Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't . . . I think we have a, just a matter of words. You said knowledge is coming from source. I think knowledge is coming from people. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How could you know? Śyāmasundara: Your knowledge is always changing, just like the carbon-14 test. You say . . . you might had said a few months back, "Yes, I believe the earth is this old," and now you have to say: "No, I believe now the earth is half that old." So your knowledge is constantly changing. Krishna Tiwari: Because that's better and better. Śyāmasundara: Better and better. Have you improved the world? Do you think you've made one improvement in the world? Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has. We have made better than what others, everybody else combined, Christ and everybody else combined did, and Lord Kṛṣṇa included. Śyāmasundara: How do you measure that improvement? Prabhupāda: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. (laughter) Sir, first of all we must settle up this point, that we are all under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swāmījī, completely. Prabhupāda: Just hear me. Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point. Krishna Tiwari: Which probably I have nothing to add to. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but my one . . . Prabhupāda: Now, what is that person, that is another thing, but simply let us agree that we are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is also controlled by somebody. Krishna Tiwari: Well, we can say that . . . Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. Now, who is that person, or what is that substance which is controlling the law of nature, that is not yet known to the science. Krishna Tiwari: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. But we, either you say "believe" or you know, we know. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's okay. Okay, because everybody is free to believe in it. But one cannot say. Prabhupāda: That is the point. You don't believe that; we believe that. Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not true. I didn't say that. I agreed with it. But I do not know who the person is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: . . . when I will have . . . Prabhupāda: I don't say who, but you have to believe that there is a person and there is a superior authority. Krishna Tiwari: Person, I don't think so. It's not from person. Not in my opinion. Prabhupāda: Or not person; something, something superior to these laws of material nature. That you have to accept. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior. Krishna Tiwari: That's fine. I don't think we have any disagreement on that point. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us agree to that point. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let us agree to that point. Now what is that something, that remains, for the time being. I may say: "I know", you may say: "I don't believe in it." That is a different thing. But there must be something above the laws of nature which is controlling. That is all. Krishna Tiwari: I agree. Prabhupāda: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is . . . but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no . . . Prabhupāda: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say, "Here is the controller." Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one . . . oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other. Prabhupāda: No. We don't know by your process. Krishna Tiwari: By any process. Prabhupāda: That is your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference. Krishna Tiwari: That's where my trouble is, and I . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, your trouble must be there. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because you're godless. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your problem. Krishna Tiwari: Not true. Not true. Prabhupāda: That is your trouble. Krishna Tiwari: No, no . . . okay, go on saying like that. Fine. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are godless in this sense: because you are born in India, born in a brahmin family, and you do not believe Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Krishna Tiwari: Oh. I do not believe, but uh, I do believe that God is, but I do not understand whether the . . . (indistinct) . . . God or not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not understand, that is your godlessness. That is your godlessness, because . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, that's not my godlessness at all. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Śyāmasundara: Please listen while he explains the process of how to know God. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa means one who knows the Brahman. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So at least you are not a brāhmaṇa , because you do not know the Brahman. Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in classes anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: It's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there, that is your defect. One has to become a brāhmaṇa . One has to. But you're deviated from brāhmaṇism. Krishna Tiwari: I'm glad I did. (laughs) I'm really happy I did. I can assure you, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: If I meet God, I'll tell Him I'm glad I did. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all right. The demons always say like that. (devotees laugh). The demons say always like that. That is the fashion of the demons. Krishna Tiwari: No, it's not true. (laughing) You know, Swāmījī, what I am telling you, it's not true, because I know I'm a brahmin's son. Prabhupāda: You are. Krishna Tiwari: I know a lot about . . . Prabhupāda: You are. Krishna Tiwari: A lot about reading *Gītā* myself . . . Prabhupāda: You have become a demon. Krishna Tiwari: Huh? Prabhupāda: From brahmin you have become a demon. Krishna Tiwari: I have not become demon, and God knows it. I am much more better man, right now . . . Prabhupāda: Demons always know better than God. Krishna Tiwari: Is that right? I don't know better than God. Oh, I never said that. What I'm saying is God knows I'm not a bad man. I'm not a demon. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Demon's position is always to challenge God that, "I know better than You." Krishna Tiwari: I never said that. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That is demonism. That is demonism. Krishna Tiwari: No, Swāmījī, you did not hear me. Prabhupāda: Yes, I hear. I know. Krishna Tiwari: I said that God knows I'm not a demon. I did not say I am better than God. Śyāmasundara: Can we hear what he knows, what is his knowledge? What he thinks is his knowledge? What do you know . . .? Krishna Tiwari: Can I say about my concept of God and philosophy? Śyāmasundara: No, no, no, not that. That's speculation. Let's hear what you think . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, it's better speculation than yours. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Let's hear what you know through your scientific . . . you say you only accept knowledge which is scientifically verifiable. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I never said that. I was giving you . . . Prabhupāda: One thing is, that he has accepted that there is a controller of the nature. Now, what is that controller you do not know. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we know. That is the difference. You believe me or not, that is another thing. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. All right. Prabhupāda: I say that controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now you may disagree with me. But I have got evidence from the śāstra that Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all brahmins in India. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I accept Him too. Prabhupāda: Yes, that He is the supreme controller. I have got that authority—Rāmānujācārya, he is a brahmin ; Madhvācārya, he is a brahmin . Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is a brahmin . They're born in brahmin family. Śaṅkarācārya, he was a brāhmaṇa . Krishna Tiwari: I know all of them. Prabhupāda: So all of them have agreed. So in my background, we have got so many authorities, but when you say, you have no background. That is the difference between you and me. Krishna Tiwari: Swāmījī, our śāstra also say that, "You seek and you'll find." And, and, and "The person who seeketh himself . . ." Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: ". . . will find, will have a better chance of finding Me." Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Where is that said? Prabhupāda: We don't agree to that. We don't agree. Śyāmasundara: Where is that said? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'll show you many books where, where the philosophy has been . . . *Prabhupāda: Now we are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . Can you say any quotation? Krishna Tiwari: No, I do not follow them by quotation, by quotation. Prabhupāda: Then don't say śāstra . Don't say "our śāstra ." You don't believe in śāstra . You do not know śāstra . Therefore don't say "our śāstra ." You'll say in your scientific point of views. Don't say your śāstra . Śyāmasundara: Say what you have found through your scientific process. Tell us what knowledge is. Tell us what . . . how things are working, then. What is the, what is the process of scientific . . . Prabhupāda: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific . . . Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it. Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know. Śyāmasundara: So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We're saying that there's a process which is perfect, and it's a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you're saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he's satisfied, he's peaceful within, and we can understand that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to . . . to understand themselves and what's around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method? In other words, has this process helped you to be actually filled with knowledge and bliss, or has it simply sent you into more questioning and more doubt until you come to a point of what we were discussing the other day, the Heisenberg's theory of uncertainty? Ultimately you come to the theory of uncertainty. So we're saying, when you come to this point, then you may as well just relax and try to have a submissive attitude—or any scientist—and try to receive knowledge which is descending. Prabhupāda: Another, another thing is, he says, he says that he does not know what is there beyond this material nature. But he's still satisfied with that imperfect knowledge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Śyāmasundara: That's right. You should not be satisfied with that imperfect knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Wait a minute. Prabhupāda: To be satisfied with imperfect knowledge is the qualification of an animal. Krishna Tiwari: Correct. But this was your words. It were not mine. I didn't say that I was satisfied. You presumed I was satisfied. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, yes. You said that we know artificially; we don't know philosophy. Krishna Tiwari: I never said that we're not trying to find out. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right, then, and you have tried, and you . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we are still trying to . . . you have to try very hard to find out these things. My question is, when I say . . . wait a minute, let me talk something. When I say I do not know, that does not necessarily mean that others know. And you are taking this real point. I am saying in my humbleness that I do not know, and you come up, "Well, I know that." Because I don't know, you are supposed to know. That's not true. I just say you don't know either. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, that . . . but you cannot say, also, because you do not know, others do not know. You cannot say. Krishna Tiwari: No. I never said that. I don't . . . I didn't say that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You did. You just did. Krishna Tiwari: No, but you'll come back and tell me that, "I know." Then I cannot believe you that because I said I don't know, you have to know. Prabhupāda: "I, I know" means I know from the authority, who knows. Krishna Tiwari: How? Which authority is that? Prabhupāda: That, I say, I present this, *Vedas* authority. You don't . . . Krishna Tiwari: (indistinct) . . . with those. Prabhupāda: You do not believe in the *Vedas* , that is a different thing. But I am saying I know from the authority. Krishna Tiwari: I have seen that. I have seen . . . I have lived in India. Prabhupāda: That is my position. Krishna Tiwari: I have lived in everywhere. If *Vedas* were all that great and we have followed *Vedas* for thousand of years . . . Prabhupāda: No. You might have . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . look what it has done to the country. Prabhupāda: You might have faith . . . Śyāmasundara: It is still there. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* are still . . . Krishna Tiwari: In what situation? Prabhupāda: It is not what situation. It is what situation for you. You do not believe. Krishna Tiwari: After the crisis is doing much better. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* , authorities, they have been accepted by all the ācāryas , by the, all the brahmins , all great personalities in India. That is our authority. Now, you don't believe in authority. That is you have become deviated from *Vedas* . That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: Well, if you want to say that point. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion. Prabhupāda: That we have got our authority. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion, because I look with eyes open; I make my own mind. Prabhupāda: This opinion, it is your opinion. Because you are Indian, I am also Indian. I believe you don't believe. Krishna Tiwari: Sure, I do not believe. Prabhupāda: So it is your opinion. Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in the strict following of every word . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view. Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one. Śyāmasundara: You said once, in a court of law, if there are two points of view at the final judgment, it has to be judged by the results of which point of view. So if you, if you judge by the results of our process and his process which people are . . . have attained to some kind of perfect understanding of themselves, some kind of satisfaction with life, you have to point to our process and say that ours gets the balance of favorable opinion, because in your process, no one has been made happy. Krishna Tiwari: How does say that in your process anybody has been made happy? Prabhupāda: Everyone who follows Vedic injunctions, they're happy. Śyāmasundara: You ask me. Krishna Tiwari: You ask me. I'm very happy. Prabhupāda: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. (laughing) Again it's the same thing. Prabhupāda: You said, you said . . . no. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal. Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is. Prabhupāda: Imperfect knowledge and happiness. Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you're talking about. You cannot be perfect either. Prabhupāda: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . no. You have no such power. You have no such superpower. Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have no such superpower, but . . . Prabhupāda: You say that you do not know anything beyond this material laws of nature. That you do not know. Therefore you do not know what is that superpower, which is controlling. But I know the superpower. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's my question. I don't know whether you know that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference. Śyāmasundara: So, you should not make up the conclusion that just because you don't know, that someone else also doesn't know. Krishna Tiwari: No, I agree with you completely, but my point of this is that this is the difference between religious and the scientific approach of finding the superpower. When science finds . . . Prabhupāda: This is not religious. Krishna Tiwari: Whatever it is. Prabhupāda: It is not faith. Krishna Tiwari: Whatever. Prabhupāda: It is fact. It is science. Krishna Tiwari: Science. It is this kind of science then, because there is no way to prove it. When a person finds . . . Prabhupāda: There is proof. There is proof. Krishna Tiwari: . . . anywhere in the world . . . Prabhupāda: You don't say there is no proof. Krishna Tiwari: . . . in science, you can do the same thing in your place. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof. Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it? Prabhupāda: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it? Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge . . . Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Śyāmasundara: No. The process is given. If, he, he . . . Prabhupāda: Just . . . we, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either. Prabhupāda: I, nobody . . . I say know, still you say nobody knows. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That's your belief, but I don't think you know that. Prabhupāda: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief. Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don't know. Prabhupāda: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding? Krishna Tiwari: (laughs) Because there is only one each of us can do. Prabhupāda: That is the idea. So if you give so much importance to your method of understanding, why don't you give more importance to our method of understanding? Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have been seeing the results of . . . Prabhupāda: Your method is imperfect. I have seen. Krishna Tiwari: But others is more imperfect. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: Others is . . . Prabhupāda: No, others are perfect. Krishna Tiwari: Very imperfect, Swāmījī. Very imperfect. Prabhupāda: No, very perfect. Very perfect. Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I'm saying to . . . well, that's what I'm saying. Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection? Krishna Tiwari: What? Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection? Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature . . . (break) (end) Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 17, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Have you translated or not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Inconceivable? Prabhupāda: Yes. Inconceivable or mystic. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mystic power. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I am just collecting what Śrīla Prabhupāda explained, the different acintya-śaktis that we observe. Prabhupāda: Here the acintya-śakti is working, this mist, fog. You have no power to drive it away. Beyond your power. You can explain with some juggling of words... *Passer*-by: Good morning. Prabhupāda: Good morning. ...that "Such chemicals, such molecules, such this, that," there are so many things. But (laughing) you have no power to drive it away. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. They have no explanation how the mist is formed. They call... Prabhupāda: That you can do. That is, I can do also. It is not very great credit. But if you know how it is formed, then counteract it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We know how it is formed. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you know, then you discover, counteracting. Just like formerly, in the warfare the atomic brahmāstra was thrown. On the other side... brahmāstra means excessive heat. So they caused something, they transformed into water. Because after heat, there must be water. So where is that science? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like milk. Milk looks white, but it is just water. They call it, it's a colloidal suspension of proteins, these caseins, in water. So similarly, this fog is just a colloidal suspension of water in the air. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you create some fire. It will be immediately driven away. Water can be driven away by fire. So you create. That you cannot. You just shot one bomb. There will be some heat, and all the mist will go away. Do it. Karandhara: That would blow up the planet. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Water can be counteracted by fire or air. Everyone knows it. So you do it, suspension. So this is for you mystic power. You can talk all nonsense, but you cannot act against it. Therefore it is mystic power. So similarly, there are so many things. That is acintya-śakti. You cannot think of even. By nature's way, immediately the sun rises*-no more mist. All finished. A little temperature increase of the sun, all finished. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. This example is given in the Bhāgavata. Nīhāra, this is called nīhāra. Just like nīhāra is immediately dissipated by bhāskara, by the sun, similarly, if one can awaken his dormant devotion, then all finished, all his reaction of sinful activities, finished. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. You just create... You calculate sun is composition of this chemical, that chemical. Just create one sun and throw it. Simply theoretical future, bluff and juggling of words, that's not good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what the research means. Research means to understand what was not known before. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Research means you admit that you are all fools and rascals. Research meant for whom? Who does not know. Otherwise where is the question of research? You do not know. You admit that. So so many mystic powers are there. You do not know how it is being done. Therefore you have to accept inconceivable power. And without accepting this principle of inconceivable power, there is no meaning of God. Not like that Bala*-yogī became a God. So these are for the rascals, fools. But those who are intelligent, they will stress the inconceivable power. Just like we accept Kṛṣṇa as God-inconceivable power. We accept Rāma-inconceivable power. Not so cheaply. One rascal comes and says, "I am incarnation of God." Another rascal accepts. It is not like that. "Ramakrishna is God." We do not accept. We must see the inconceivable mystic power. Just like Kṛṣṇa, as a child, lifted a hill. This is inconceivable mystic power. Rāmacandra, He constructed a bridge of stone without pillar. The stone began to float: "Come on." So that is an inconceivable power. And because you cannot adjust this inconceivable power, when they are described, you say, "Oh, these are all stories." What is called? Mythology. But these great, great sages, Vālmīki and Vyāsadeva and other ācāryas, they simply wasted their time in writing mythology? Such learned scholars? And they have not interpreted that it is mythology. They have accepted it as actual fact. There was forest fire. All the friends and cowherd boys, they became disturbed. They began to see towards Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa, what to do?" "All right." He simply swallowed up the whole fire. This is inconceivable mystic power. That is God. Aiśvarya-vairāgya-yaśo-'vabhodha-vīrya-śriyā. These six opulences in full. That is God. That inconceivable power, inconceivable energy or mystic power, we have got also. Very minute quantity. So many things are going on within our body. We cannot explain. The same example. My nails are coming exactly in the form. Although it is spoiled by disease, again it is coming. I do not know what machinery is going on, and the nail is coming, exactly fitting the position and everything. That is coming from my body. So that is mystic power. Even it is mystic power for me and to the doctors, everyone... They cannot explain. *Kṛṣṇa*-kāntī: The doctors are marveling at the complex nature of the human brain. They are amazed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. But they are rascal. It is not the brain that is working. It is the spirit soul that is working. The same thing: the computer machine. The rascal will think that a computer machine is working. No. The man is working. He pushes the button, then it works. Otherwise, what is the value of this machine? You keep the machine for thousands of years, it will not work. When another man will come, put the button, then it will work. So who is working? The machine is working or the man is working? And the man is also another machine. And it is working due to the presence of Paramātmā, God. Therefore, ultimately, God is working. A dead man cannot work. So how long a man remains living? So long the Paramātmā is there, ātmā is there. Even the ātmā is there, if Paramātmā does not give him intelligence, he cannot work. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. God is giving me intelligence, "You put this button." Then I put this button. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa is working. Another, untrained man cannot come and work on it because there is no intelligence. And a particular man who is trained up, he can work. So these things are going on. Ultimately comes to Kṛṣṇa. What you are researching, what you are talking, that is also Kṛṣṇa is doing. Kṛṣṇa is giving you in... You, you prayed for this facility to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving you. Sometimes you find accidentally the experiment is successful. So when Kṛṣṇa sees that you are so much harassed in experimental, "All right do it." Just like Yaśodā Mā was trying to tie Kṛṣṇa, but she could not do. But when Kṛṣṇa agreed, it was possible. Similarly, this accident means Kṛṣṇa helps you: "All right, you have worked so hard, take this result." Everything is Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Everything is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, "Kṛṣṇa didn't give me the proper steps how to do the experiments." *Prabhupāda: Yes, he gives you. Otherwise how you are doing it. Whatever you are doing, that is by Kṛṣṇa's grace. And when you are still favorable, then Kṛṣṇa will give you more facilities. Kṛṣṇa will give you facility, will favor you, as much as you desire, not more than that. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva... As much proportionately you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, the intelligence will come. If you fully surrender, then full intelligence will come. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Wet? (Asking about the ground) Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Little wet, but not much. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, "You fully surrender. I give you full protection." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. He will give you full intelligence. [break] ...these facts in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will be our great success when the scientific world will admit. Let them admit simply. Then our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will (be) great success. You simply admit, "Yes, there is God and mystic power." Then our movement is very successful. And that's a fact. Simply talking like a nonsense amongst the nonsense, that is not a very great credit. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. One blind man is leading other blind man. What is the value of such? They are all blind. And so long one remains blind and rascal, he does not accept God. This is the test. As soon as we see that he does not accept God, he is blind, rascal, fool, whatever you can call. Take it for granted, however, whatever he may be. He's a rascal. On this principle we can challenge so many big, big chemist, philosopher, whoever comes to us. We say, "You are demon." The other chemist came, you brought him, that Indian? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hm. Chouri.(?) Prabhupāda: Chouri. (laughing) So I told him that "You are a demon." But he was not angry. He admitted. And all his argument was refuted. Perhaps you remember. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in fact, he was telling that "Kṛṣṇa didn't give me all the procedures, steps, how to do the experiment." He was saying like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why shall I give you? You are a rascal, you are against Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa will give you facility? If you are against Kṛṣṇa and you want the credit without Kṛṣṇa, that's not possible. You must be submissive first of all. Then Kṛṣṇa will give you all facilities. Just like we dare to face any chemist, any scientist, any philosopher. Why? On the strength of Kṛṣṇa, we believe that "There is Kṛṣṇa. When I shall talk with him, Kṛṣṇa will give give me intelligence." This is the basics. Otherwise, from qualification, standard, they are very much qualified. We are common laymen before them. But how do we challenge them? Because we know. Just like a small child He can challenge a very big man because he knows, "My father is there." He is catching the hand of the father, and he's sure that "Nobody can do anything to me." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want to make sure the meaning of Tad apy aphalatāṁ jātaṁ. Teṣām ātmābhimāninām. *Prabhupāda: Tad apy aphalatāṁ jātaṁ. Teṣām ātmābhimān..., bālakānām anāśritya govinda*-caraṇa-dvayam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. "The human form of life becomes spoiled for those..." Prabhupāda: Yes. "Who do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply he dies like animal." That's all. Just like the cats and dogs, they also take birth. They eat, sleep, and beget children, and die. The human life is like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jāta means the species? *Prabhupāda: Jāta. Jāta means born. Aphalatāṁ jātam. Jāta means it becomes futile. Futile. The human form of life becomes futile if he does not accept govinda*-caraṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. If he's not convinced that "I worship the original Personality of Godhead Govinda," then he's spoiled. That's all. His life is spoiled. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ātmābhimāninām means the... *Prabhupāda: Ātmā, dehātmā*-māninām. "I am this body." *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So those self*-centered... Prabhupāda: Self? They have no information of the self. These rascals, they think, "I am this body." Ātmā means body, ātmā means self, ātmā means mind. So this ātmābhimānī means bodily concept of life. Bālaka. Bālaka means a fool, child, bālaka. Ātmābhimānināṁ bālakānām. Those who are under the bodily concept of life, they are like children, fools, or animals. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I plan to expound the principle of transmigration through this verse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Transmigration. Bhramadbhiḥ. Bhramadbhiḥ means transmigration, wandering from one body to another. Just like I am here. I have got my this body, a dress, covering. And when I go India, this is not required. So they are taking that the body has evolved like that. But no. Here, under certain condition, I accept this dress. In another place, under certain condition, I accept another dress. So I am the important, not this dress. But these rascals are studying the dress only. That is called ātmābhimānām, considering of the dress, body. Bālakānām. Just see. They bring here dogs for passing stool. Dog stool is so very much infectious. The diphtheria and other germs, they are grown. But these rascals they do not know. They distribute dog stool everywhere. But cow dung, there is no cow dung. *Vedas* says cow dung is pure. That is neglected. Dog stool is pure. This is their intelligence. They give signboard: "Littering illegal"? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: But dog stool is not illegal. Just see how foolish they are. If you drop a paper on this grass, that is illegal. But you can get your dogs pass stool, it doesn't matter. This is their intelligence. They will not allow if you are bringing one mango from other part of the country, but they will allow dog also bringing so many germs. They do not know. Dog also brings so many germs, infectious germs. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they were very careful. When the astronauts from the moon, when they come back on the surface of the planet, they thought there might be some germs which they do not know yet. So they put it in quarantine for several days, to make sure that they are... Prabhupāda: First of all make sure whether he had gone there, and then talk of all these things. (laughing) I am not sure they are going there. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: You know they made another blunder. Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is that? *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: They made a spaceship that they wanted to orbit around the earth so that they could send men and ship an outpost. Karandhara: A house, station. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: So they sent it up and it failed. It cost two billion dollars or something, squandered. Prabhupāda: Just see why they are wasting time in that way? Money. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: They were criticized in the paper. Prabhupāda: Fool. Simply childish. Bālaka. What are they gaining? For the last, how many years they are trying? For going to the moon planet? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Russia started in 1957. First sputnik where Gagarin was there... *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five years. So they could not get anything, not a single farthing even. Still, they are doing. Just see, obstinacy. Punaḥ punaś carvita. This is called chewing the chewed. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. They will never be successful. So I am a layman. When I wrote that Easy Journey? In 1950, 67. How many years? Karandhara: Six years. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not 67, 57. Sixteen years before. They are all childish. I am a layman. It will never be successful. It is already written there in my *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. Here also, that, some press reporter asked me in San Francisco, when I landed, "What is your position about this moon planet?" "It is simply a waste of time and energy. That's all. You cannot go there." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have very big plan in the future, going to the surface of the Mars planet. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is future. That is all your statement, future. With future hope you become a big man. That is their foolishness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Future, about ten years. Prabhupāda: Whatever... It may be one year, but we do not accept such proposition. We want to see what you have done now. Svarūpa Dāmodara: First of all they have to develop the methods how to do it by a small scale... Prabhupāda: In my childhood I was thinking... The tramcar is going on trolley. So I was thinking I shall stand on the tram line and just take a stick and touch the wire and I will go. I was planning like that. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: [break] without knowing Kṛṣṇa, is this a struggle for existence, any activity? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Activity without knowing the purpose of it, that is struggle for existence. You must know why you are working so hard. What for I shall work? The aim of life is missing. Na te viduḥ. They do not know it. Therefore failure, confusion, hopelessness. All the results of this world, hopelessness. Is it not? What is one... Show one result, that it is very successful, hopeful. Just like, say, moon planet*-hopelessness. What is there? They spend so much time and money, but what is this? Hopelessness. They do not know. All scientists are working, all politicians are financing, but result is hopelessness. Is it not? Similarly, everything they are doing, but they are so rascal, they will never admit that "We are failure." Still they will stick, "Yes, we are success... Future, in ten years we shall do it. Never mind." I have seen, one man was condemned to death in Allahabad high-court. So the lawyer was assuring, "Don't be disappointed. I shall get you out by appeal. Don't be disappointed." I have seen it. That lawyer was very big lawyer, an Englishman, Mr. Allston. And one man was condemned to death. He killed his servant very mercilessly. And the case was... He was a doctor, medical practitioner. So he was condemned to death. So after the condemnation, when he was coming out of the courtroom, I saw that he was flattering, "Don't be disappointed. I shall get you out by appeal." This is going on. He wants to bluff him, but this is the high-court judgement. How there can be appeal? There may be appeal in the Supreme Court, but he is simply bluffing. Just like medical men. They'll repeatedly give you medicine, "All right, let me try this. This pill you try. This pill you try." They will never admit, "This is hopeless." This is going on. Bluffing, simply bluffing. Cheating, that's all. *Kṛṣṇa*-Kāntī: If they admit they are failures, they'll never get any more grants. *Prabhupāda: You see. All utopian. One platform... It is called ākāśa*-puṣpa, ākāśa-puṣpa, to get flower from the sky. It is called ākāśa-puṣpa. This kind of plan is called ākāśa-puṣpa. Ākāśa-puṣpa. Or the bakāṇḍa-nyāya. Bakāṇḍa, the testicle of the bull and the duck, he is expecting, "Here is a fish. It will drop, and I will take it." He is following. Have you seen? In India we have seen many. The bull is going on, on the..., and the baka is going on. And whole day and night, he is after that. "It is a fish, big fish. It will drop and I shall take." Bakāṇḍa-nyāya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is also a bird, Śrīla Prabhupāda; it is called heron. Prabhupāda: Heron? I do not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. They have long beaks. They also, they are always with the cows. Prabhupāda: That is baka. We call baka. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are all the time... They stay mostly in wet lands. *Prabhupāda: Yes, bakāṇḍa*-nyāya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists, when we say that "The attempts that you are doing are no good." Then they want to make sure that what I am saying is right. Prabhupāda: Yes, because I see that you are rascal, therefore I am right. You are rascal. You don't admit, but I see that you are rascal. You don't admit, but I see that you are a rascal. Therefore I am right. This is the argument. You are so rascal that you cannot admit your rascaldom. Just like this moon planet expedition. But I, sixteen years before, I told that these are rascals. Therefore I am right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They claim that "We have done so much." Prabhupāda: What have you done? You have simply spoiled money. That's all. In that sense I have done so much. Simply by teaching people, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they are coming to such light. What do you think? I have done most wonderful thing than them. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But even if they do not know during their lifetime, at least, towards the end of their life, at the time of death, then they'll remember that, "I have wasted my life." *Prabhupāda: That is warned by Śaṅkarācārya. Vivekananda lamented at the end of his life, that "I have simply wasted my life." He admitted, "I have not given anything." Bālakānām. He was after this body, and he was recorded, government record, as political sannyāsī. Yes. He had political purpose, but was acting as a sannyāsī. Just like Gandhi, "Saintly statesman." He is recorded, "Saintly statesman." He's a statesman, politician, but he was introducing some morality, non*-violence, like that. Actually, his philosophy failed. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity, but it was divided. The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed. And Indian independence was achieved not by Gandhi's non-violence method but (by) Subhas Bose's violence method. And he wanted to explain nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Just see, another foolishness. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and he was screwing some meaning to prove his nonviolence. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In one of the articles by Bharatiya... There's a man called Bharatiya, in... What is (indistinct) university? He was saying that Nirana Subhas Bose, he wanted to join Ramakrishna Mission. Is this true, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: For future. No. Might be. He wanted to join? Why he should join? Why he did not join? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was explained that he had a better, great mission, so he should not join, "You should do your..." By that time he was started, fighting for freedom. So he was not allowed... Prabhupāda: So what was that greater mission? Svarūpa Dāmodara: For independence, fighting. Prabhupāda: No. Why he wanted to join Ramakrishna mission? What is the attraction of Ramakrishna mission? What they have done? Ramakrishna mission, what they have done? The Ramakrishna mission is working here in your country... (end) Conversation with Çrédhara Mahäräja -- June 27, 1973, Navadvépa Prabhupāda: ...German center, (Bengali) ektā United States. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Three in America. Prabhupāda: Three in America. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Another three, Another...? Prabhupāda: Another three in Europe. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Three in Europe. Six. Prabhupāda: One in India. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: India, one. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Aside) (Bengali) Why you are keeping there? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: India, one. Seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. And Africa, one. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: One. Prabhupāda: Eight. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That will be at. (eight) Prabhupāda: And one, Australia. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Australia. Prabhupāda: New Zealand. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Nine, New Zealand ektā. (one) Prabhupāda: And one... Bhavānanda: Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada. Devotee: Africa and South America. Bhavānanda: Ah, yes, South America. Prabhupāda: South America. What part? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: South America. South America, kon jaegaeta (?) Bhavānanda: Australia and Southeast Asia also. Prabhupāda: Argentina. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Argentina. Devotee: And Japan. Japan. Prabhupāda: Japan includes now... Devotee: Western United States. Prabhupāda: Western. Bhavānanda: Western United States? Prabhupāda: Yes. Including Hawaii and Japan. Japane lokera... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Russiate, there is big loka. I have got a student there. They are very much strict about religious things. When I went to Moscow... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Well, reaction will come. Prabhupāda: Reaction already come. They do not... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Sure to come... Reaction, reaction. *Prabhupāda: So they found one of my Bhagavad*-gītā in the immigration. So immediately he called police. (laughs) Then he, he examined. He allowed, "All right, it is all right. It is such a rubbish." But they are not very happy country, as they advertise. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What is happiness? God is happiness. Prabhupāda: Now, apart from materially, they're poor. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha... Prabhupāda: This is... *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: ...anudarśanam. So they are poor in intelligence. This is sattvic intelligence. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Prabhupāda: Anudarśanam. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Divide up higher kind of intelligence. Prabhupāda: The Russian professor... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And the scientific fineness that is also in the jurisdiction of matter. But a more subtle and subtler knowledge is possible. Prabhupāda: Now we are presenting through two of my scientific students, Doctor of Chemistry, that matter is, the source of matter is spirit. This is our theory. Generally they believe the life, life comes from matter... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Life comes from matter. Prabhupāda: Matter. But we, we are presenting, "No, matter comes from life." Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Apparently. This is not appropriate. This is Vedānta. Vedānta... Prabhupāda: Janmādyasya yataḥ. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I said that just examine the healthy body. This material world is an excema expect(?) in the healthy body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Material, material atmosphere means diseased condition. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Diseased condition, very negligent or diseased condition, very negligent part, forming very negligent part of the whole, this material world, where creation and dissolution is compulsory. Prabhupāda: Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Creation and the dissolution is compulsory. That is a negligent portion of the real universe. Prabhupāda: ekāṁśena. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Otherwise, if a major portion of a body is bad, then that cannot stand. So the major portion of the universe must be healthy, wholesome. And the negligent part is the diseased portion. That is the world, where the majority lives. Prabhupāda: One fourth part. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: The, the possession of Satan. It is under possession of Satan. Satan means having vikṛta*-jñana. That is misunderstanding. Misunderstanding is perverted. Misunderstanding is set out. Understanding is there, but it is perverted. *Prabhupāda: Dehātma*-buddhiḥ. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Dehātma... *Prabhupāda: Dehātma*-buddhiḥ. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Dehātma*-buddhiḥ. Rather, rather the enjoying principles, offensive. Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Enjoying mood. That is the basis of this. And mood of renunciation. That is a vapor state. That is nothing only. And the real life is the life of self*-dedication and service. And the service not of any part. Or service not for any part which is like me, but for the whole, for the Divinity. As Kṛṣṇa says in Gītā, *Prabhupāda: Eighty*-four miles. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Thirty two miles. Thirty*-two miles. *Prabhupāda: Somebody says eighty*-four. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Āṭhār*-krośa (?) Vṛndāvana, Prabhupāda: Ah, Saloka. (?) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: ...thirty*-two miles. But Paravyoma, which is to be understood as Vaikuṇṭha, means infinite, many of the paravyomas is accommodated there within that thirty-two miles area. Square miles area, or something like that. That, we must be conversant with that sort of understanding. Any number of length of rope coming, but only two fingers less. Only two fingers less. Another big rope added. Again that two fingers less. This is all categorical principles. We have to be acquainted with. Then we shall go to read Bhāgavatam or to... (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Drive the flies. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: How it is possible. Eka vigraha tāṅra ananta svarūpa. In one figure, He accommodates numberless of figures. Eka vigraha tāṅra ananta svarūpa. But all these appear to be real and it will be shown to them who has got real śraddhā. Śraddhāmayo 'yaṁ lokaḥ. The world of faith. And that is substantial, not imaginary. What we say to be concrete, that will be reduced to ashes and imaginary. It will evaporate, both the scientists, material scientists, as well as the ṛṣis. But this will evaporate one day with sun, moon, everything. This will evaporate, but that subtle thing stands forever. Śraddhāmayo 'yaṁ lokaḥ. The experience of the region of faith stands forever, undisturbed. The world of experience is evaporating every second. And for the being who is dying every moment, every second dying, the what is to be told to us to be reality, that is, means dying every second. That sort of reality is given to us by these great persons of the present universe, big scientists, and big leaders of the knowledge(?) world. In India there is a saying that once a big mountain, he he or she expressed that she will produce a child. Parvate mūṣika bhave. She has got fame just before producing child. Then the people thought, "Oh, what a big child must come when the big mountain, she feels pain to produce a..." Eh? Prabhupāda: Labor pain. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Labor... "Then a big child must come." At last it was seen that a mice, a mouse was produced. So the big, giants of the present world, so*-called leaders of the scholars... Prabhupāda: Scientists. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: ...scholars, with world, they are producing like a mouse. That is a dying substance, in this form or that form. *Prabhupāda: Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Ah, this is sheer deception, a deception to be a challenge to the real thinkers. We should abhorrently throw it out at once. It is within the boundary of janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Throw it off. Prabhupāda: So I, I try to impress upon them this fact, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a challenge for this deception. They're simply deceived. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: All sorts of deception. Even Vaikuṇṭha. Paravyome (Bengali) And the calculation, even they, the self is, a sort of calculation comes between the, the servitor and the object of service, then also it throws us down. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that sort of calculation is also absurd. Where there is love, there cannot be any calculation. It is autonomous. Autonomous anurāga. Cultivate, do. No sort of calculation of any benefit. The calculation disturbs autonomy. *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya devī-maheśa-hari-dhāma... [Bs. 5.43]. (Bengali) About our temple contemplation, it will be almost a skyscraper building. Bhavānanda: Will be. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Eh? *Prabhupāda: Skyscraper building in temple shape, with four divisions. Goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya devī-maheśa... [Bs. 5.43]. So Maheśa-dhāma, how it will be depicted? Pārvatī-wise. (?) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It has been already described by Sanātana Gosvāmī in Bṛhad*-Bhāgavatāmṛtam. After crossing Brahmaloka, *Prabhupāda: There is Maheśa*-dhāma, in between. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Maheśa*-dhāma. And the devotee, Śiva is devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is... Śiva's devotional prayer is there in Fourth Canto, about the four sons. What are those? *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Devī*-dhāma. Virajā to virajā, nirviśeṣa. The last conception or the highest conception of Devī-dhāma is what are the conception of virajā; prakṛti ends there... Then begins... Prabhupāda: Kāraṇa, kāraṇārṇava. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kāraṇa, kāraṇārṇava. Then it begins Brahmaloka, the halo of the spiritual world. Prabhupāda: Effulgence. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Spiritual world. And that is also some, some, somewhat nirviśeṣa. And then, after crossing that, the Śiva is on the other, higher side or he is in lower side. That is differentiation... Prabhupāda: Śiva is... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Differentiation on two sides is Śiva. This side also, Master of Devī, and this side also. He is searching after something and when the differentiated world ends in Brahmaloka, there also Śiva is devotee. This side, Śiva is a yogī. He's searching after. And then, there, he's going to meet Nārāyaṇa, to face (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Both sides, he's a devotee. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This side, he's not such a devotee. But that is pure devotee on the other side, Vaikuṇṭha. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sadāśiva. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Sadāśiva, Mahā*-viṣṇu. On the other side, he's a devotee. Vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ. *Prabhupāda: Mahā*-viṣṇu and Sadāśiva, the same. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Same. Prabhupāda: Advaitācārya. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Advaitācārya. On the other side. and this side, sometimes revolving. The other day, I told a gentlemen that Śiva is rather the leader of the opposition party. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in Dakṣa*-yajña, that is the curse. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In Dakṣa*-yajña and in many a place, many demons is encouraged by him. We find. Prabhupāda: But when Pracetās, Pracetās, they met Śiva... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That, that is that Śiva, devotee Śiva. Prabhupāda: Oh, they... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Mārkaṇḍeya also in *Bhāgavatam*, Mārkaṇḍeya worshiped Śiva. But that is the devotee Śiva. It is clearly mentioned in *Bhāgavatam*. Mārkaṇḍeya's worshiping Śiva. But that Śiva is the pure devotee of Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Pracetās, Śiva, the Pracetās met in this material world or in the spiritual world? They met in the material world. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I can't remember that particular... But Śiva, this side also Śiva, in the nirviśeṣa, on the lower side of the nirviśeṣa is also Śiva, and the higher side of the nirviśeṣa is also Śiva. Then Nārāyaṇa. *Prabhupāda: Here, he's Bhūtanātha, leaders of the atheistic*-class of men. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Atheistic class. And his paraphernalia is Nandibhṛṅgi, bhūta, and his, and his eldest son is Vināyaka, and he misguided... The leader of the misguided, Vināyaka, Gaṇeśa. *Prabhupāda: Oh, Vināyaka. Vi*-gata... *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Vināyaka. Not proper nāyaka. Vikṛta*-nāyakaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Vikṛta*-nāyakaḥ. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Vināyanikapamode-śuddha*-prabhu, (?) that are protected by Kṛṣṇa, and they, they... *Prabhupāda: But in Brahma*-saṁhitā Gaṇeśa is described: vighna-nāśa. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Vighna*-nāśa, but with the help of Nṛsiṁhadeva on his kumbha. *Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Yat*-pāda-pallava-yugaṁ vinidhāya. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: With the help of His lotus feet, he's able to... Otherwise, he's Vināyaka. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Vināyaka. Gaṇeśa. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (Bengali) posasas ca... Prabhupāda: Misleader. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Misleader, misguider, Gaṇeśa, his eldest son. And he give support, Śiva. Just as C.R. Das, he encouraged the Subash Bose and the other members of opposition party but he himself was a little common person. Prabhupāda: So, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, how do you like this place? Satsvarūpa: Very transcendental. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (Bengali) Śrutakīrti, where is Śrutakīrti? Prabhupāda: Here is Śrutakīrti. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: His health, you have to arrange what will be... Prabhupāda: Śrutakīrti wants to serve you, provided you go with us, USA (laughter) He says, "If Mahārāja goes with us, then I shall take care of him." Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In another life. Some other life. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ne. (Bengali) Indian: (Bengali) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (Bengali conversation continues for some time) (Devotee shows some vegetables) Prabhupāda: Oh, paṭal is there? Oh. (Bengali conversation with a little English, talking about success of the movement around the world, which vegetables to eat during Cāturmāsya and other topics for some minutes) Prabhupāda: How within five or six years...? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (Bengali) The intellectual barrier has been crossed and from there, it is being extended to this mundane world of ours. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: One intelligent boy, you have heard his name, George Harrison, he's one of the greatest musicians at the present moment, of the world. I think so, eh? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: George Harrison. So he's becoming, he's very intelligent, so he's becoming interested. Now recently he has given us a house in London which is fifty*-five lakhs. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Which is worth two hundred thousand pounds. Two hundred thousand pounds ordinarily, it is forty lakhs. And in the market value, because pound is selling in India thirty, twenty*-eight, at least twenty-five, in that way...[break] *Prabhupāda: ...Bhaktivedanta Book Fund account (Bengali). "Five thousand dollars. You take advance. Deposit. And take my orders." So I gave him order, "Books worth fifty*-two thousands of dollars, advancing five thousand dollars." And they gradually supplied to India. And from U.S.A. we gradually, little by little, we paid. So that became the asset, of books. And I advised them that "You go and present these books to respectable gentlemen to become a member, and they'll become." And actually that plan became successful. Now the same members, they have not only paid eleven hundred. Now some of them, they're paying eleven thousand. Recently one gentleman belonging to the Birla family... Eh? Bhavānanda: L. M. Birla. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: The other day, the family came there and Jagan(?) went there... Prabhupāda: No, no. Another family. They came to our Calcutta center. In how many motors they came? Bhavānanda: Seventeen. Prabhupāda: Seventeen motor cars, whole family. And after seeing the Deity they presented a check for eleven thousand rupees. So by Kṛṣṇa's grace, money is coming. There is no scarcity. And they are spending here in Māyāpura. So with that five hundred, five thousand dollars, whatever asset is Indian now, that is from five thousand... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Also you have proved also that capital is on the other world. Capital is also... So it is being supplied. Prabhupāda: Now, these books suppliers, Dai Nippon, they give us credit up to $200,000. $200,000, in our Indian exchange, it is twenty lakhs of rupees. So they give us credit. We take books from them and distribute and then pay. In this way, it is going on. In Los Angeles alone we are selling... How many books daily? Devotee: Two thousand, maybe. Fifteen hundred a day. *Prabhupāda: Two thousand pieces, and the collection is about eight thousand dollars, no, eight hundred dollars. Eight hundred dollars. So they're very anxiously taking our books. A new literature. They have no such idea, what is God, what is bhakti. How they can be explained. Our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, publisher MacMillan, within one year... Last August they, the first edition. And... Not yet August. By this time, they have finished two editions and the third edition is in the press. That will be available in July. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Edition of a very number..., Prabhupāda: Fifty thousand. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Fifteen thousand. Prabhupāda: Fifty. Five, zero. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Marvelous success. Prabhupāda: And Bhāgavata also, we have got six volumes. So people purchase the whole set, sixty dollars. Sixty dollars for the whole set? No? How much? Śrutakīrti: They sell it for thirty dollars. Prabhupāda: Thirty dollars, yes. So this is very encouraging that our books are... (Bengali) The books are selling like anything, these books. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Hotcakes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Hotcakes, yes. We are ordering to Dai Nippon, because they are giving us facilities, 100,000 copies each. And distributed all over the world. The whole world, Australia... The whole... Australia is English*-speaking. Whole America is English-speaking. England, English-speaking. And Europe also, half, English-speaking. India, more than half, English-speaking. So in this way, English literatures, worldwide circulation we are getting. And besides that, we have published in German language, in Spanish language. Just yesterday I received Spanish Back to Godhead. People are liking it very much. So here is something. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Who is in charge of this publication? Prabhupāda: Publication... I have made one Trust, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Who is the leader? *Prabhupāda: I am there, and one, my sannyāsī śiṣya, Bali*-mardana. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Where is that Bali*-mardana? *Prabhupāda: Bali*-mardana. Bali-mardana and another, Karandhara dāsa Adhikārī. So actually he's the manager, Karandhara dāsa Adhikārī. He is looking after. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: At America. Prabhupāda: In Los Angeles. He's very intelligent boy. He knows everything. He knows accounts, He knows how to construct building. He knows how to manage. He knows how to publish. Everything. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Versatile. Prabhupāda: Versatile, yes. And he's not very old. And he wants to take sannyāsa also. He's a gṛhastha, he has got a child. And: "Just wait. We shall arrange for your... You are already sannyāsī." He lives apart from his wife. So he's very nice boy. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: So I do not have here one copy, regularly. Prabhupāda: Oh, why, why not Back to Godhead? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Last time I requested, but they have forgotten. Prabhupāda: It is... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (Bengali) Once letter to me that in Benares Candraśekhara and Navadvīpa Candraśekhara, uncle. The Benares Candraśekhara, the lekha śūdra, and the Mahāprabhu's maternal uncle Candraśekhara Ācārya... Prabhupāda: Candraśekhara, yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Eh? ...Has been misplaced. Prabhupāda: Oh, Candraśekhara Ācārya and śūdra... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And Candraśekhara... Prabhupāda: Where? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Has been told to be this Candraśekhara, a servant Candraśekhara. Prabhupāda: Benares Candraśekhara was a vaidya. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Vaidya. Prabhupāda: And he is... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This is... Uncle, Prabhupāda: Uncle, uncle. In Back to Godhead, you have seen it. Maybe. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: So much clear conception in such a small period of time, that they have acquired. This is a marvelous thing. The Dāmodara also, ISKCON has said in such a way, this Dāmodara Svarūpa and the Paṇḍita Dāmodara. Generally, these are for public, but minute reader only can differentiate. Prabhupāda: Dāmodara. Svarūpa Dāmodara and Dāmodara Paṇḍita. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Dāmodara Paṇḍita. Two different, but one is Lalitā. Another is a mañjarī of Candrāvalī, Paṇḍita Dāmodara. Prabhupāda: Opposite party. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Opposite party. And this is the leader of this party, and he... Prabhupāda: How they came together? Caitanyākhyāṁ prakaṭam adhunā. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Bon Mahārāja once misplaced that very... Prabhupāda: In which book? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In this... Prabhupāda: Eh? In which book. Or he spoke in a speech or what? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In speech must be, but... Prabhupāda: But he hasn't got many books. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: No. One "Paramo Dharma" in Bengali, and "First year in England," "Second year in England," in this way... Prabhupāda: That is not a... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: One (indistinct) in German language. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What is there, I do not know. "First Year in England." "My First Year in England." "My Second Year in England." And it was very disgusted to Prabhupāda, this... Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda, yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And his servant. Prabhupāda: And therefore he was called back. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Nothing, "I met that such and such person on such and such date. I met on that... I, that is one lecture there." Everything: "I, I, I..." Prabhupāda: And there was a picture: "Swamiji is playing on harmonium." Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And Tīrtha Mahārāja is trying a, feed (be?) a pigeon or something like that, and staring... These were the pictures while London preaching. And the money... *Prabhupāda: So our present Tīrtha Mahārāja, Bhakti*-Vilāsa-Tīrtha Mahārāja, he's representing Prabhupāda. At least, he tries to pose himself. So Bon Mahārāja's activities, in comparison to that, my activities certainly better. And Bon Mahārāja was given so much reception. But he did not give me any reception. How he can claim to be Prabhupāda's representative? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Bon Mahārāja was given reception because Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: No, Prabhupāda appreciated anyway. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Anyway. Prabhupāda: But here there is no appreciation. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He's representing, he's representing the mission, he thinks. He thinks so, but he's so poor in his preaching capacity that he cannot accommodate any other in his camp than him and Vinohe(?). I heard a story of Maharashtra. In old days, there was a good king who encouraged the paṇḍitas very much. And he had got in his assembly a scholar, one Balarāma. He always looked after this, that. No paṇḍita can have any entrance to that Mahārāja. And he professed himself to be, he is the biggest paṇḍita in the land. So once Kālidāsa... At the time of Kālidāsa. Kālidāsa, when he heard, then he found a plan. And went to that paṇḍita, that "I a poor brāhmaṇa. I want some, some sort of money from the king. You are all in..." Prabhupāda: Recommend. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "Please recommend me." "Oh, yes. And then what sort of scholarship you have got? Do you..., can you compose any poem?" "Yes. I can." "Then do it." Then: uttiṣṭhottiṣṭha bhū*-rājan mukhaṁ prakṣālaya atha, roditi na ghare kukurana vaidyuhi na vaidyo hi.(?) This stanza. What is the meaning? (laughs) The uttiṣṭhottiṣṭha rājan. "Oh King,..." Prabhupāda: "Get up." *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "Wake up, wake up. Get up." bhū*-rājan mukhaṁ prakṣālaya atha. "And..." Prabhupāda: Wash up. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "...cleanse your mouth. Wash your mouth." And ta what is this ta? "Well, keep it in your hand." Roditi na ghare kukura... "The ta must come here." Roditi na ghare kukura ta mughi. "That ta is placed there in advance, that ta must come here." Roditi na ghare kukura ta. "But for the caṇḍa, and it has been removed there. And that one word, the place was empty. So this ta has been positioned, has been placed there." Roditi na ghare kukura. "And what is this Ca vai tu ki, ca vai tu ki? No." "This is ca*-vai-tu-ki, all these letters only to pada, for pada pūraṇa. So this fourth pada, I could not fill up. So these four things have been placed here." ca vai tu ki, "Oh, that's very good I'll put it to the king." Prabhupāda: He saw it is very intelligent. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "How, how a scholar I am I! I wrote this is the specimen of other scholars." (Bengali*-recites some verses) And this sort of poems was produced by him in the court. The king was charmed. This man was perplexed. So Tīrtha Mahārāja (?) is like Balarāma. And he, and he... Prabhupāda: Nobody should be allowed. (laughter) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And when he find man comes around him, then he will be nowhere to the... He's, he's, he's knows one thing, that Haritaki. You know that story of Haritaki. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Laughs) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He knows this canar*-dharma. (?) Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Canar*-dharma is everything to him, just as Haritaki to that fabulous Kavirāja. (Bengali) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And he has got one thing, I... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tusarkanti (?) very much appreciates. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Whom? *Prabhupāda: No, this canar*-dharma. Because that Gaura Mahārāja, you know. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: He told me that he was given... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He wanted election of Vāsudeva Prabhu, Gaura Mahārāja and that Bhagavānānanda, but Paraśurāma. But anyhow, he escaped and he came to Tīrtha Mahārāja, his former relative, old Tīrtha Mahārāja, former relative. Then Tīrtha Mahārāja told him that "What about my guru?" "Well, if your guru on one side, another bullock in another side. And if you can plow and produce some crops, and that can be offered to Mahāprabhu, then your guru may have a path of relish." (laughs) See what Tīrtha Mahārāja says, "This is blasphemy." "No, it is true, but this is very cruel. But this is truth." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: If he's presently the pakka Māyāvādī, if he's used passively by a great man then only in that way he can come this side. Not in front walking. Not by front walking. Only by back drawing, he can be taken to this side only. It is quite true. That... So Cinmayānanda. Now Gaura Mahārāja, he knows me better, and he, he's a paid Goswami of those Patrikā persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And they are exploiting him. He's exploiting them. Prabhupāda: This time, in their meeting, they made me chief guest. But I did not attend. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That's a lower position. Prabhupāda: In, in a big meeting, they made me chief guest. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He wants to show, so that, "I have got..." Prabhupāda: That, that... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: ... such big man. Prabhupāda: Oṁkāranātha... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Was president, was made president. Prabhupāda: And that uh... *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And yourself, Mādhava Mahārāja and Tīrtha Mahārāja invited to be vice*-President. I heard. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mādhava Mahārāja went there. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Went there. Prabhupāda: Yes. He lectured. And I did not go. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And Tīrtha Mahārāja did not go. Prabhupāda: I do not know. Tīrtha Mahārāja did not go? *Bhavānanda: They were made Vice*-presidents, but Śrīla Prabhupāda was asked to be chief speaker. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Once when I was in a hut here, then Ānandamaṇi came to Navadvīpa, and one devotee, Mano*-rañjana, he wanted to bring Ānandamaṇi here. I refused, that "I won't be able to pay any respect to her. She's a pakka Māyāvādī." I, I saw that she, with a cow in her back and with the flute... Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a picture like that. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Picture. So it is abhorrent. I refused that I won't, however she may be... She was not so great as she is now famous but I refused. What I need for him, for her? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tīrtha Mahārāja is of this type, this type. I had one Sanskrit śloka devoted to Prabhupāda: Gaurī*-gaṅga-taṭe nava-braja navadvīpe tu māyāpure śrī caitanyam atha prakāśa-kamaru jīvaika-kalanaudhi, śrī-siddhānta-sarasvatīti milito gaurī gurvanyaiḥ bhartur amriba prabhāta gagane rūpānuga-pūjitau.(?) Siddhanthi, (Bengali) He told the composer of this poem, "He has got not a place in the maṭha of Prabhupāda." Who can praise him in such a poem, "He cannot, he has no place...," Prabhupāda: Place. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: "...of accommodation in his own, in the maṭha of Prabhupāda." (Bengali) Adṛṣṭi*-parihāsa. What will be the English expression? Adṛṣṭi-parihāsa. Kasno... Prabhupāda: Desire. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I have got another śloka. That is, that will be very effective to have a clear conception of Prabhupāda's mission. Nikhilo bhuvana*-mayacchino vicchino karteji vivhala bahuta mukti mohan tadatri, siti-liti-vidhi rādhā rādhā-rādhe sādhane vilasatu dviji taṁ bhaktisiddhānta vāṇī. (?) Prabhupāda: Āpnāra composition. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: A clear picture of Prabhupāda's mission. Visi siti mayachinna vichinna kartr. And vibudha bahula vimudhe means scholars. Vibudha bahula vigdha mukti mohana dart asiti... Prabhupāda: The mohan. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Eh? Prabhupāda: The mukti (Bengali conversation continues with Sanskrit verses praising Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī) ...garden like this, surrounding. Like I see so many fruit trees. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Ah, yes. Do it gradually. And the more beautiful, they will do it in their time. Prabhupāda: Eh? This is very beautiful species. Śrutakīrti: Yes, big birds and... Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Engineer was saying that if we have a big tree around the building, then it blocks the view of the building. We will make such beautiful building and no one will see it through the trees. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What does he say? Prabhupāda: If we cover with gardens, big, big trees, then the beautiful building will be covered. So therefore he wants to keep it barren. (laughter) Devotee: That is how the engineer always sees his engineering. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: You see, Vṛndāvanam, Gauravanam, the vegetable class is not eliminated. They have got their part to play, and that is not to be neglected. At night... At night... Prabhupāda: I think, Mahārāja, after your coming here, all these trees have grown. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Only these trees... Prabhupāda: Only the mango tree I remember... *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Others have grown. At night in the forest pastimes, holding a principal part of the Kṛṣṇa*-līlā. And when pasturing the cows, then also, forest is necessary. So it will arouse in your mind the memory of Vṛndāvana and the Gauravana. They have got their part to play. And what Uddhava says? (Sanskrit) "I aspire after the birth of a shrub or creeper or a grass in this land because I may have chance of being, having been tread by Your, those divine damsels. Then their feet dust will be on me." So that is a necessary and important part, this vegetable kingdom. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: ...of Vṛndāvana and Gauravana. They will arouse in your mind the first real memory of Kṛṣṇa and His pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: And help you, help you. Green. (Sanskrit) But real sabuja is there in Vṛndāvana, the source of all sabuja. This sabuja will die, will be dried out. Prabhupāda: Wither away. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: The source of real sabuja, kiśora sabuja, constant sabuja, constant greenness, is only there, kiśora. Nitya kaisore sthiti. Eh? Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Everyone is a kiśora. Kiśora means youth. (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Pre*-youth. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Pre*-youth. *Prabhupāda: Pre*-youthtime, kiśora. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Pre*-youthtime. And there it stands. (Bengali) Prabhupāda: Have we got bael nuts also, with our garden? Devotee: Separate. Prabhupāda: Oh, separate. Yes, bael nut is separate. That police officer, Ashe(?), district magistrate... *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Was re*-elected. (Bengali) ...on the real basis of this downpour of the civilized people here. (Bengali conversation for some time) Prabhupāda: If you manufacture one palanquin... Palanquin. You know palanquin? Then sometimes you can carry Śrīdhara Mahārāja there. Yes. It will be great service and benefit for you. Because he's, he's very now... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Feeble. Prabhupāda: Feeble now. So palanquin is all right. He can be carried in palanquin. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Now, this is the palanquin. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It will be a ludicrous exhibit, sitting demonstration... Prabhupāda: No, why? All aristocratic kings, they were carried by palanquin. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, it was previously. Prabhupāda: And... Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Now the motor car has taken place and the more advanced... Prabhupāda: Motor, motor, there is jerking. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: ...helicopter. Prabhupāda: Now, now we, this, recently, before coming here, one of my students, Śyāmasundara, he took me from the airport on helicopter to my temple, and he spent one thousand pounds for that rascal thing. Unnecessarily. "Why you have spent unnecessarily?" No. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What this mundane man? Indian: (Bengali) (end) Room Conversation -- July 9, 1973, London *Prabhupāda: Simply for Kṛṣṇa, there is simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. Anything else*-waste of time. But in Kṛṣṇa's connection there are varieties. Does it mean, although the dictaphone is there, still I shall write in my hand? Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot touch this. We don't follow this nonsense philosophy. Unnecessary vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya, dry knowledge. *Devotee (1): Śuṣka*-vairāgya. Prabhupāda: Śuṣka, śuṣka means dry. Oh, it is material, I shall not touch. I shall not touch. Just like that rascal, Ramakrishna, if anyone wanted to give him some money (gesture). (laughter) How, he does not touch money. These rascals, why shall I not touch? Come on, you have got money, George Harrison, spend. Yes, come on, I shall take it, for Kṛṣṇa. We haven't come to this house for living very comfortably and enjoying. No, we have come here for Kṛṣṇa's service. Haṁsadūta: This point is revolutionary in spiritual circles. Prabhupāda: Because it is Kṛṣṇa's property. It is not my property, neither George's property. This is mistake. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So it must be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. *Revatīnandana: Simply they don't know Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Revatīnandana: They don't know Bhagavad*-gītā, therefore they don't understand us. Prabhupāda: No, no. Therefore I say, all... Immediately, how you are all rascals. We have got a test. Test tube. As soon as one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is rascal, he is miscreant, he is lowest of the mankind, he has no knowledge. These, these are groups, they belong to. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. He maintains that he is very big man, Nixon, but we know that he is a rascal number one. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You can understand immediately what is what. By this test: Revatīnandana: ...you said if he's coming from God, then what difference does it make? Prabhupāda: You can see that you are a fool (but) God is not fool. That is the difference. But God is (indistinct), He'll not speak foolish. Because he is above all this foolishness but you are within the foolishness. That is the difference. Try to answer them like that. You are within the status of foolishness, māyā, and God is above māyā. If God is also within the māyā, as the rascal Māyāvādīs say, then what is the use of God? We are everything. Yogeśvara: They just accumulate knowledge just for knowledge sake. Prabhupāda: Not just for knowledge because they do not get any knowledge. They have no knowledge. What is the knowledge? They talk all nonsense. What is the knowledge? Revatīnandana: His argument was "Well there's no point in talking about this matter. All of us accept this." He's saying: all big authorities, they accept this point of view, that this was recently written literature. Prabhupāda: No, they don't know who are authorities. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: You manufacture your own authorities. You do not know. That is your misfortune. You do not know who is authority. Devotee (2): They all smoke cigarettes and they think they're authorities. They're nonsense. Revatīnandana: I met another old authority on Sanskrit and he is sitting behind his desk and his whole body is shaking: "No, I'm not interested in the spiritual side of these *Vedas*. I'm just interested in the Sanskrit." He's dying you know, and still he's like that. That's their authority. You can't save them but... Prabhupāda: Adhyaki, adhyaki(?), therefore adhyaki(?). Revatīnandana: What's that? *Prabhupāda: External. Adhyaki(?). (indistinct) ...one is interested in the body not in the soul. So he is a fool. This, this sculptor, he is simply interested in the outward body, he has no knowledge of the soul. And he wants to become a very famous man, remaining in the category of asses. Because one who is in the bodily concept of life, he is an ass. Go*-khara, khara means ass. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life he is no better than animal. The cats and dogs, they are also in the bodily concept of life. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. So he has not advanced beyond these cats and dogs because he is in the same conception, that I am this body. A dog cannot understand that you are not this body. So similarly, if the human being cannot understand that he is not this body, what is the difference between him and the dog? So śāstra says sa eva go-kharaḥ: [SB 10.84.13] he's no better than the cows and the asses. That's all. And actually it is a fact. The first instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, they cannot take it, and they're scholars. That is the most regrettable situation that these fools and rascals under the bodily concept of life, they are become authorities. Actually they are asses. Yes. Revatīnandana: I used to observe when I was going to the university that all my professors, their intellectual business was just a profession like digging ditches. Prabhupāda: That's all. For earning money. Revatīnandana: For their pleasure they're going home to drink beer and eat steak. That's all they're really interested in. They're just working to make money. I could see it and I didn't want to follow their footsteps. Prabhupāda: Just like a śūdra, he cleans in the road for money. They are going as professor but the category is the same. You don't make any distinction between that sweeper and this professor. Or a hog and cat and dog. The hog is also working hard, whole day and night for stool, eating. So this man is also working like that. Beyond that he has no other knowledge. Revatīnandana: The scientists, they have a term. Psychologists, they call it the idiot savant. The idiot savant means he's an idiot but he has one particular talent and because of that talent he can get along. Just like sometimes you find an idiot, he can look at a column of figures and he can compute the sum in his head very easily but he can't even understand how to tie his shoes. And I think these scholars are like that, they're actually idiots but they have one talent for Sanskrit or for history and because of that they can get along. They can support their body but otherwise they have no qualifications. Prabhupāda: Śūdra. Unless he gets that post, he'll starve. He has got some talent in some particular subject but he must get some service. By serving others, he'll be able to utilize his talent and get some money, then he'll eat. This is śūdra's business. Dog's business. Just like a dog unless he has got a nice master, his position is very precarious. A street dog. Nobody will care neither it is (indistinct). *Yogeśvara: You point out in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that they go to school and learn to become Ph.D., then they have to knock on the door for a job and no one will open the door. Prabhupāda: No vacancy, sir. So just like dog. Revatīnandana: But they have a way to force them to work. The politicians force the scholars. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: If they don't print books, if they don't write a book every now and then and print it, get it published, they lose their tenure, their position as a professor. They must produce one book, then another book, then another book. If they don't, finished. In this way they are working all the time. *Prabhupāda: The Marwaris in India, they don't educate their son. Just like Birla. They say, "We can purchase these rascals, why we should waste our time. (laughter) So*-called technicians, so-called expert computer, these are... We can purchase, why we shall waste our time." Haṁsadūta: It's the same thing I learned in Germany. First I wanted to get my own press and I studied the situation very carefully and I saw it was ridiculous for us to do that, it's so much hard work. It's much easier to collect the money in the street by giving the magazine and then paying someone. They work very hard and do it. Everything is like that. They have so many people that can do everything. The one thing that people can't do is distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness and for that Kṛṣṇa's giving so much money. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. That verse. Only for this purpose one should endeavor. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Kṛṣṇa (indistinct) paying for that. *Prabhupāda: You cannot purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness-you can have money*-that you have to cultivate. Revatīnandana: Yeah, when Mr. Birla is getting old then he has to come to us, if he has any sense. *Prabhupāda: No they say, they simply give primary education (indistinct) they can read, that's all. And (indistinct). They don't send because everyone knows that sending boys to the school means spoil them. That's all. I have seen intelligent boys, they go to school and he is spoiled. Yes, spoiled. He learns how to smoke, how to have sex, how to talk nonsense, how to use knife, how to fight, these things. At least at the present moment. Yes. Simply slaughterhouse, this so*-called school is called slaughterhouse. Yes, slaughterhouse. *Revatīnandana: It was when I went to school-I was a nice little boy*-in school I failed out, only (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes, you must take as intelligent. That so..., time was wasted. Our, this gurukula should be taken care of very nicely. So nice preachers may come out. Brāhmaṇa, nice brāhmaṇa. Revatīnandana: I'm still thinking about the other morning, we were talking about how everything is actually spirit. Everything is composed of spiritual atoms actually, souls. We were talking about the... Prabhupāda: That is Vedic version, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman. Revatīnandana: When we speak about the transmigration of the soul, we speak about 8,400,000 species. Does that include the inanimate objects as well, within those 8,400,000? Prabhupāda: Sthāvara, sthāvara, they are called sthāvara, immovable. He means hills, mountains, stones. They are called sthāvara. Sthāvara, which cannot move. Revatīnandana: So actually we don't really... *Prabhupāda: Sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati. Two million types of sthāvara. Revatīnandana: So we don't actually discriminate between the tree, and say, the atom, as a living entity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Haribol. Little by little it's becoming clear. *Prabhupāda: Sthāvara, sthāvara means one cannot move, standing. Sthāvara*-jaṅgama. There are two kinds of living entities. One moving, one not moving. Yogeśvara: But the atom is always in motion. The atoms and molecules are always constantly moving. Prabhupāda: That movement is different. That is not independent movement. Yogeśvara: Is that to say that a stone has a living entity in it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually what we discussed is that every, even the elements, the atoms, everything is made of nothing but spirit souls in fallen conditions. Because everything comes from brahmajyoti, which is nothing but spirit souls, and brahmajyoti... Therefore soul never changes. So this manifestation is from brahmajyoti. Therefore, it is made of souls. It is nothing else but spirit souls. Yesterday, a few days ago we discussed that. Prabhupāda: It is simply covered by another energy which is called material energy. And that is māyā. Māyā means that is not actual, not factual. The example is given, just like the sun is covered by the cloud. The cloud is nothing but another creation of sun. But when the cloud comes, sun is invisible. Similarly this condition, forgetfulness, is my creation and when I am covered by this forgetfulness I become stones and atoms, like that. *Haṁsadūta: In Bhagavad*-gītā, it says that the soul is immovable. In the Second Chapter there is a verse that says the soul is immovable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: What does that mean exactly? Are we not moving? In that verse it says immovable and... Prabhupāda: Sthāṇu, means fixed up. Haṁsadūta: You mean its nature is...? Prabhupāda: Unchangeable. Haṁsadūta: Unchangeable. Not that we are not moving. We are moving. Prabhupāda: Might be that word was not properly used. Sthāṇu, the word is sthāṇu. If you have got Sanskrit, you know what is the meaning of sthāṇu. And acalo 'yam, acalo 'yam, yes. Revatīnandana: The point of all those... *Prabhupāda: That means acalo 'yam also, so acalo 'yam. Acalo 'yam means that does not move. Sthāṇur acalo 'yam, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is given. You can see. Now there is no time. Revatīnandana: It's time for class. (end) *Room Conversation With David Wynne -*-July 9, 1973, London Prabhupāda: ...recently I've heard that the people in the airport protested against Indira Gandhi, that "Give us rain." Yes. That is Vedic civilization ideal. Why there is rain then no rain? The king should be responsible. One brāhmaṇa lost his son. He immediately went to the king and asked him that "The son has died before the death of the father; why this irregularity? You are responsible." You see? The ideal is that the king is representative of God, because we are all sons of God. We have come here in this material world for our proper guidance. The king is responsible, the spiritual master is responsible, the father is responsible, the elderly persons are responsible. Because you told me that we have to work for other. That other is Kṛṣṇa. If we utilize our intelligence for serving Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of the king or the spiritual master or the father, then the society is perfect. That is ideal civilization. What is your opinion about this? How do you think this ideal... David Wynne: I think it's... I... I... I wonder when it will come. Will it come on this level or what...? Prabhupāda: Immediately, provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. David Wynne: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Immediately. It is not a question of when. Just like here is light. It doesn't depend there is darkness. You can remain in the darkness and immediately come to the light, and from the light immediately go to the darkness. So, this darkness and light, they are existing, co*-existing. It is my choice whether to remain in the darkness or in the light. It is my choice. As soon as you are in the darkness, there is no light. As soon as you are in light, there is no darkness. It is your choice. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is light. And anything else, that is māyā. So we can accept either māyā or Kṛṣṇa. If you take to māyā, then you've spoiled your energy and time. If you take to Kṛṣṇa, you utilize your energy and time. Everything is there, ready. You haven't got to create. Everything is there. Just like night is there and day is there. You can keep yourself always in day. Do you know how to do it? David Wynne: Keep going round, I suppose. (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: Yes. Nowadays it is not difficult, because... Devotee (1): Airplane. Prabhupāda: Just like I started from India at eleven o'clock, and I came here at half past eight, the sunlight was still there. So if you proceed still further, further towards Western side, the night will not be able to come. So you can travel always in daylight. (laughs) Don't allow. It is an example. David Wynne: Why do we choose the dark? Prabhupāda: Eh? David Wynne: Why do we all choose the dark? Why are we all in the dark, most of us? *Prabhupāda: Dark means without Kṛṣṇa consciousness*-darkness. Devotee (1): He asked why do we usually choose the darkness. David Wynne: And most people. Prabhupāda: Due to bad association. David Wynne: To...? Prabhupāda: Bad association. David Wynne: Ah. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, our Society is association. If we keep good association, then we don't touch the darkness. What is that association? There is a song, sat*-saṅga cari goinu asate vilāsa teka name lagi loma karma bandha phāṅsa.(?) Sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga means association with the devotees. That is called sat-saṅga. So the, one poet, Vaiṣṇava poet, is regretting that "I did not keep association with the devotees, and I wanted to enjoy life with the nondevotees. Therefore I'm being entangled in the fruitive activities." Karma bandha phāṅsa. Entanglement. Here in this material world we act, and the result is there. Again we enjoy the result and act, again another result. We act, another result, another result. Because as soon as you act, there will be some result, good or bad. So, good or bad, by good result we get good birth, good money, good bodily features, good education-these are the effects of good work. And the effects of bad work, low-grade family, abominable, ugly bodily features, no education, no money, poor-these are the two effects of material good and bad work. But those who are trying to be transcendental both to the good and bad work, devotees, they are perfect. Because in this material world either you do good work or bad work, you have to suffer the material condition. Just like you are, suppose you are Englishman, you are well situated. But you can not avoid the influence of the weather. (laughs) David Wynne: No. Prabhupāda: That is our problem. Either you become rich man or poor man, but you have to undergo. (aside:) Make the light. There is switch. (pause) So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that "I am in the material world." Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He's good boy, realizing, he also... So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body. Sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth. Sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Because after death you'll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You'll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body. So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable conditions, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection. But people are not given that chance, the modern education, modern civilization. They've no knowledge; *they do not know that there is life after death, although it is a simple fact. Just like in our present existence we have got past, present and future. Just like you are young man, you have your past. You are a child, or a boy, now that is past. Present, you are young man, and in future you are expecting to become old man. So as you have got past, present and future, similarly, I'm old man, I've got my past life, why not future? What is the reason to deny it? Past, present, future, that is the time calculation. I had my past, I've now present, and why is my future? They do not care for the future. They're so blind. There must be future. So what I'm doing for the future? Just like in this life we collect some money, keep in the bank balance so that in future, old age, I may not be in difficulty. Similarly, what a human being should do for his future life? That he does not know, although past, present, future is there. So this is foolishness. He doesn't care for the future. So one who is foolish, without any knowledge of the future, whatever he's doing is defeated*-in ignorance, because it is ignorance. Just like a boy does not take education, does not think of future. That is not very good. We must be prepared for the future, his next life. Yes, where is that civilization? Where is that education, that people are thinking for future life? Is there any educational system at the present moment? So everything is being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Abodha-jāta, these rascal fools, born foolish. He does not inquire about the self-realization, so whatever he is doing, it is all defeat, he is spoiling his time, because he does not know. Ātma-tattvam, the science of self-realization. So in ignorance, whatever you do there is defeat. And they're being defeated and they're thinking "I'm victorious." This is called māyā. This is called māyā. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. We are trying to save the living entity from disastrous condition. This is the aim and mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not a religious sentiment, no. It is a very scientific. And we have got so many books already printed, and many books coming. Each and every one. You have seen our books? David Wynne: I have seen the one that (indistinct) gave. *Devotee (2): Bhagavad*-gītā he has seen. Prabhupāda: If you read carefully, each and all carries volumes of meaning. David Wynne: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee (2): He's got the Bhagavad*-gītā that the Queen was reading. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (2): She was looking at... *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā, our Bhagavad-gītā? Devotee (2): Yes. Queen Elizabeth was looking, and she gave... *Prabhupāda: Yes, as far as possible you should help everyone how to be, how to become enlightened about his future. That is real humanitarian work*-to save a human being from the future disastrous condition of life. Just like a father thinks of his son, that he may not be unhappy in his future life. So it is the duty of the king, it is the duty of the father, it is the duty of the spiritual master to see that his subordinate is not falling a victim of future disastrous life. Devotee (2): Didn't the Queen make some remarks about that? She said something to you... David Wynne: Yes, she said, "How marvelous it would be to completely trust Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: That's very nice. David Wynne: She said, ah, "What a relief to be able to pass all responsibility to Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. But that one has to learn, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. The sentiment is very nice. It is just fitting from the royal... Because she's after all favored, she has taken birth in the royal family, so she is not ordinary woman. And her intelligence must be extraordinary. So she has remarked like that, what is that exact word? David Wynne: I think the exact word... She said "How marvelous to be able to give all responsibility to Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is ready. David Wynne: Yes. And she said... Prabhupāda: But the thing is from our side Kṛṣṇa expects something. David Wynne: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not a dead stone. Reciprocal. If you fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa takes full responsibility. If you keep some reservation, Kṛṣṇa also keep reservation. David Wynne: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: This is it. When Kṛṣṇa understands that you have fully surrendered, He takes full responsibility. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Devotee (1): Sometimes people ask, "If I surrender to God, give everything to God, then how will the state go on, how will the work, the factories, how would all that go on? *Prabhupāda: That, Kṛṣṇa is taking responsibility. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He takes responsibility. Otherwise what is the use of surrender unto Kṛṣṇa? He takes responsibility. Devotee (1): (laughs) Just can't go wrong, then. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Actually Kṛṣṇa is doing everything. We are thinking, "I'm doing it." We are doing nothing. Just like he has become a famous sculptor. Why you could not? Why, what is the reason? Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. "I am seated in everyone's heart." When He works, Kṛṣṇa says, "Do like this; it will be perfect like this." So Kṛṣṇa is guiding. And everyone is being guided by Kṛṣṇa, even in this condition of life. And when he fully surrenders, how much guidance he will come his way? Even without surrender he's guided. Without His guidance he can not do it. David Wynne: That's true. Prabhupāda: You cannot do it. Cannot do anything. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa is guiding everyone, even an ant. Kṛṣṇa is giving information, "Mr. Ant, there is a grain of sugar, you can go there." Immediately goes. Otherwise, how he gets the information? For him, one hundred miles away, a grain of sugar, and he goes there. He did not inform. Who informs him? Who informed him? David Wynne: You feel this very much when one's trying to make sculpture, because it is impossible for a man; one can't do it... Prabhupāda: No. David Wynne: ...one has to wait and be passive... Prabhupāda: If Kṛṣṇa withdraws the intelligence, you cannot work. So Kṛṣṇa is guiding already, but He's guiding at the present moment according to your whims. "You wanted to do this? All right." Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence: "Do it." But when he'll agree to act according to the whims of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection. David Wynne: How do you agree to this? Prabhupāda: Eh? David Wynne: How does one agree to this? Prabhupāda: There is process. David Wynne: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to learn it. In the conditioned state we act according to "my whims." In the liberated state we act according to Kṛṣṇa's whims. That's all. That is the difference. That is the difference. Just see, Bhagavad*-gītā. Arjuna wanted to act according to his whims, "Oh, He is going now fight with my grandfather, with my teacher." These are the problems. Kṛṣṇa... "No, I cannot fight." And then at last he agreed to act according to the whims of Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā [Bg. 18.73]." Find out this verse. Naṣṭo mohaḥ. Whatever we are speaking, there is reference in the Bhagavad-gītā. We don't speak anything according to our whims. No. Śrutikīrti: *Prabhupāda: There it is. "I am prepared now to act according to Your whims." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When he was trying to act according to his whim, the necessity of instruction of Bhagavad*-gītā was there. And when he heard Bhagavad-gītā, he's changed. "Now this is..., all doubts are gone. At last I will act according to your..." This is... Very important verse. Changing. Changing the whole picture. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Same Arjuna, same fighting, same battlefield, everything same, but still everything changed. The consciousness is changed. Externally nothing changed; internally changed. This change is equal for perfection. Devotee (2): So one doesn't have to give up his... Prabhupāda: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything was there. He did not... He took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, "Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone." This is required, this is perfection. And there's the picture how Kṛṣṇa is guiding Arjuna. When the ranks are formed. Devotees and David Wynne: Yes. Prabhupāda: "Just here. Just here." Devotee (3): This picture is in George's album. David Wynne: Yeah, yeah. When I was young my mother died. I was very unhappy, and I read the..., a bit where Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "That which is real always exists, and that which isn't real never existed at all," and then I stopped being unhappy. Because this book is..., it tells you everything. (end) *Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -*-July 9, 1973, London Śyāmasundara: Because it went on so long, we didn't stop. [break] Prabhupāda: Utilize His mercy. Then your life is perfect. He is ready to help you, from within and from without. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. The kindness, the mercifulness of Kṛṣṇa, nobody can repay. In every birth, He is with me, canvassing: "Why you are acting whimsically? Just turn towards Me." Therefore He's going along with the living entity in every kind of body, either as demigod's body or hog's body, still, Kṛṣṇa is there. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. (pause) Give him some prasāda. Śyāmasundara: They said it would be coming any moment. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They're bringing some prasāda. Prabhupāda: Is there any other paper? No, it is a very impressive picture. David Wynne: It's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have given, "A Rival for Nelson." So this movement is a rival... Days were there in British Empire that Nelson was a hero. Now Kṛṣṇa is going to be hero in this country. (laughter) It is a good admission, "A Rival for Nelson." Actually, He should be. Śyāmasundara: Now no one even remembers Nelson. Revatīnandana: I have. Śyāmasundara: I never heard of him. Prabhupāda: Lord Nelson, he fought the Spanish battle, I think. David Wynne: I don't know. Prabhupāda: He died, but became victorious. Yes. I think during Queen, last Elizabeth's time, or something...? David Wynne: Yes. The last words: "England expects that every man this day will do his duty." And all that. He was a hero because he died young, I think. Prabhupāda: Maybe. I do not know. But Nelson, Lord Nelson, was famous man, soldier. Śyāmasundara: Now the pigeons are sitting on his head. David Wynne: I have just come from Morocco. I've been with the King of Morocco, who is... It's very strange because he is an absolute ruler, and when an ordinary man is an absolute ruler, it's rather dangerous. Prabhupāda: No. If the man is really Kṛṣṇa's representative, then it is all right. David Wynne: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: Is he a pious man? David Wynne: Yes, he prays five times a day. He's a Moslem. Prabhupāda: That king should be a representative of God. That is ideal king. But if he thinks that "This kingdom is my property, and let me enjoy for my sense enjoyment," then it is all gone. If he thinks himself as representative of God... Just like we think. Therefore we are after our disciples: "Do this, do that, do that, do that." We want to see that my disciples also become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, it is the king's duty to see that every citizen becomes God conscious. Then he is representative of God. That is the first duty. The division must be there, and the, it is the duty of the king to see that everyone is discharging according to his responsibility. That is king's duty. A brāhmaṇa is acting exactly like brāhmaṇa. The kṣatriya is acting exactly like kṣatriya. A vaiśya is... Like that. It is the duty of a king to see that nobody's unemployed, everyone is engaged in his own occupational duty. That is the... And they must feel security of life, property, anxiety. That is perfect king. Here, at the present moment, nobody is confident whether he'll live after an hour or... You see. Anyone can take your property and life, at any moment. There is no protection. There is no protection. And so far anxiety, there is no length and breadth. People are always full of anxieties. Unemployment. These things should not be there. No unemployment, no anxiety, no feelings of insecurity. And that is good government. Nowadays there are police force. But what is the use of this police force? You go on the street, somebody stabs you, what police can do? If somebody takes away your money from your personal pocket, what the police can do? They'll take some note. Śyāmasundara: That's right. If ...one boy who stole from us, I told the police. We told them exactly where he was, at the airport, Manchester. "He's going on flight such and such to America tomorrow." Plenty of time to apprehend him. They didn't do anything. Prabhupāda: Just see. Śyāmasundara: They came... Oh, they sent one inspector to take notes. Prabhupāda: That's all. Śyāmasundara: Many notes. *Prabhupāda: Useless, all... And taxation. No security and ninety*-nine per cent taxation. Just see the fun. They are very much accurate to take taxation. And there is no guarantee of security. This is the position. David Wynne: Has it ever been perfect? Prabhupāda: Eh? David Wynne: Has it ever been on earth in the material world perfect with...? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. David Wynne: It has. Prabhupāda: Five thousand years ago, it was all perfect. The whole world, this planet, was being ruled by one king. And they were all happy. That is in the history. Five thousand years ago. Maybe less, in three thousand years ago the history was different. The difficulty is that as soon as one is lost of his culture, he becomes an animal. Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the difference between human being and animal. Human being must be with culture. Animal cannot be cultured. So a human being without culture, he's no better than animal. That culture is lost. They have missed the aim of life. Revatīnandana: They think they have culture. Prabhupāda: What is this culture? A human being is killing so many animals, innocent animals, is that culture? They are less than animals. Who kills? The tiger kills, ferocious. A human being killing innocent animals... In Christian religion, therefore: "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing only. Where is the culture? Killing culture. That is not culture. What do you think? David Wynne: It must be so. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How a human being can kill another human being or another animal unnecessarily? And if you kill, there is law, life for life. But they have made laws for human beings. When an animal is killed, he's not criminal. But in the God laws you cannot avoid that. If you have killed an ant, you must be shot. That is God's law. You can avoid man*-made law, but you cannot avoid God-made law. That you cannot do. You must be responsible. If you kill an ant even without knowledge, you are responsible. Such subtle laws are there. So we must know our responsibility. Without knowledge, if we kill, we are responsible. And with knowledge, there is no question. Where is that culture? They advertise, "Live and let live." What is that? Do they do that? Actually? They want to live at the expense of others. Why not let live others? Where is that culture? Śyāmasundara: Now there is a famous cinema being shown called "Live and Let Die." Prabhupāda: That is good culture. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Favorite. Everyone likes it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let others die; you live. David Wynne: And yet, Arjuna had to fight in the war, didn't he? Prabhupāda: Hm? *David Wynne: In the Bhagavad*-gītā, he still had to... But it didn't matter him killing if it was Kṛṣṇa's responsibility? Prabhupāda: No. Fighting or killing, when it is done for, under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. David Wynne: Yeah, I see. Prabhupāda: Just like a soldier fights on behalf of the king, and the more he kills, he gets medal. The same soldier, as soon as kills one man, he's hanged. He cannot say, the soldier, that "In the battlefield I killed hundreds and hundreds men and I was rewarded. Now I have killed only one man, I am being hanged? What is this?" Why? He's hanged. Because he killed on his own account. David Wynne: There's the thing. Prabhupāda: And in the battlefield he killed on the state's account. He was rewarded. So there is difference between killing. David Wynne: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: When there is real, righteous fight, for good cause, that fighting is all right. Just like the state gives punishment one person, "This man should be hanged. Kill him." So who is blaming the state, "Oh, the state is killing this man?" That is right. It is good for him. In Manu*-saṁhitā there is good background. So similarly, everything is good when it is done for the good. And God is good. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious move... And everything is bad when it is done for māyā. That's all. So these wars are declared not for Kṛṣṇa's sake; by the politicians' whims. So they must be responsible for this war. Śyāmasundara: Like the Vietnam, you mean? Prabhupāda: Any, any war. They create whimsical... Anything you do whimsically, you are responsible. Anything you do. Why fighting? Anything. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. It's funny that that John F. Kennedy, he started that Vietnam war, and he was shot down later. Prabhupāda: He started that war? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is the position now? Nixon? He's going to be impeached? Yes. Śyāmasundara: Practically, he is, without... Prabhupāda: He's cornered now. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. He's lost all respect. Prabhupāda: Prestige. Still if he sticks to his position, that is his foolishness. He should have resigned. If, if... Upright man: "All right, you do not like me. I resign." Then whole thing would have been quashed off. But he's a foolish man. He's sticking to his position. Śyāmasundara: Prasādam...? Bhagavān: Prasādam will be here in a few minutes. Our position, I guess, is just to make it an easy choice for people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: To come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: But choice means, a child cannot be given for choice. He must be forced. Right child is a rascal. So you cannot give him choice. He must do it. That's all. Revatīnandana: Or like, like our festivals. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: To make it easier. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. It is, what is called, nonviolent. We ask everyone, "Come and join." You saw our procession yesterday? David Wynne: No, I didn't. I wasn't there. Prabhupāda: I see. Many thousand people joined us. From two o'clock up to eight o'clock. Six hours. At last, the police had to ask them to go away. Is it not? Who told me that? Eh? Mukunda: I didn't know. I know they were... Prabhupāda: They were not leaving Trafalgar Square. So it is a very nice movement, very serious movement. You are known to so many big, big men. Try to induce them to understand this serious movement. If leading takes something seriously, others follow. David Wynne: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. At the present moment, the world situation is not very good. And it will deteriorate more and more if they do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. When I speak "Kṛṣṇa," that means God. David Wynne: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is your idea of God? David Wynne: Everything. Prabhupāda: Hm? David Wynne: It seems... I, I mean I, I don't know. I've thought of it, of course, many times as every intelligent person has, but it's, my idea of God is on the consciousness of the whole world, of all that we could possibly envisage, its consciousness is, that's God, and we're the little bits of it. But would you tell me...? Prabhupāda: Complete in everything. That is the conception of God. Complete in power, complete in knowledge, complete in beauty, complete in opulence... Everything complete. That is the conception of God. Everything complete. There is no scarcity. Everything complete, unlimited. So what is your idea of this material creation? Material means so much land, so much water, so much air, so much fire. So who created these things? David Wynne: Well, God created it, and it seems to be the aspect of God that we are attached to. Prabhupāda: Eh? David Wynne: (laughs) But I'd rather you told me, sir. Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: This material world is like an aspect of God that we are attached to, but the God behind we don't know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our foolishness, that we do not know that behind this material cosmic manifestation, there is God. That information we get from Bhagavad*-gītā. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. That means this cosmic manifestation is creation of God. The vast water is created by God. The vast land is created by God. Everything is created by God. Do you believe that? David Wynne: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So if everything is created by God, then, when you create something, is it your property or God's property? David Wynne: Oh, God's. Prabhupāda: That's it. David Wynne: Yes. But it feels like it when one creates it. One's surprised and didn't know what it was going to be like and cannot claim it. Prabhupāda: No. God supplies the ingredients. That just like you are working on stone. So who has supplied the stone? David Wynne: Yes, this I can understand because it's... Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you are working on the stone with your intelligence, but who has supplied you the intelligence? You are working with your hand, but who has supplied you the hand? In this way, if we consider that everything belongs to God; therefore the result must be given to God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. David Wynne: Sometimes one gets in the way. Sometimes one, when one's own wishes intrude, one can spoil what's being made by trying to put one's own ideas at the wrong time. But at other times, even with somebody who's as bad at it as me, the, something else does come through, doesn't it? The, the, what should be there if one senses and stands back and lets it come. Prabhupāda: What is that? Sometimes it is not successful? Śyāmasundara: When we try artificially to impose our idea on something, say, a sculpture, sometimes we make a mistake and it comes out not good. Prabhupāda: That mistake you are responsible. David Wynne: Yeah. Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because at the present moment, as I told you, we are acting according to our whims. So if there is mistake, I am responsible. Śyāmasundara: In, in,... Sometimes they call inspiration... They say, "Oh, I've been inspired," and they create something beautiful by, automatically almost. What is that inspiration? *Prabhupāda: That inspiration means you created an idea, that "I want to do like that," and because you are persistent to act, so God helps you, "All right, you act." That is inspiration. But you are responsible. God gives you... You are persistent, that "I must have it." "All right, do it." That is inspiration. We should not do that. Unless it is desired by God, we should not act anything. That is bhakti. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam... Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. You should not have any (indistinct) for your satisfaction. Then it is all God's responsibility. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Śyāmasundara: What if there's some desire to make something beautiful to give to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: If one wants to be ... Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa will accept not from any ordinary man, unless you are devotee. If you think that "I shall do something for Kṛṣṇa without having any relationship with Kṛṣṇa," how Kṛṣṇa will accept it? Kṛṣṇa accepts only from the devotee. He does not accept anything from anyone else. He's not in want. David Wynne: Yes, exactly. (laughs mildly) *Prabhupāda: He's not in want. He's complete in Himself. But when a devotee gives Him love and faith, He accepts: "All right. Thank you." That is another thing. Otherwise, He doesn't require anything from him. What beautiful thing you can give to Kṛṣṇa? He can create thousand times beautiful thing than you... What power you have got? Why should you desire like that? But if you are devotee, either it is beautiful or ugly, it doesn't matter. If you give to Kṛṣṇa in good faith, He'll accept it. It doesn't matter. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. He doesn't require anything. But bhaktyā, in devotion and love, if anyone offers even a little leaf, a little flower, tad aham aśnāmi, "I accept." He says. A little flower and little leaf, what benefit you'll do to Kṛṣṇa, unlimited? But He says, "Still, I accept because it is offered in faith and devotion." So that is a different thing. Śyāmasundara: It's funny, too. When David went to see the Queen one day, he took fifteen of our small rubies. They're not worth much compared to her crown jewels... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Śyāmasundara: But he told her that they were like... She said, "Well, what shall I do with them?" And he said, "Well, they are... Consider them, Your Majesty, like flowers offered to you by one of your subjects." And she became very pleased to see it like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. What, what is the value of those jewels to her? But if some citizen offers in good faith and love, she accepts. That's all. David Wynne: Is it right thinking to think that one, although one can't give anything... Kṛṣṇa, of course, has everything. Should one not praise Him? Because... Prabhupāda: No, no. You should praise Him, certainly. That is bhakti. That is bhakti. Yes. David Wynne: Because what I... *Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. (People enter room, pause, moving tables, etc.) Take prasādam. Prasādaṁ prāpti*-mātreṇa bhoktavyam. ("Prasādam should be eaten as soon as one obtains it.") Take. Śyāmasundara: You must be hungry after all that hard work. (Eating, etc.) Prabhupāda: This is halavā? Devotee: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's bananas and cream. Everything. Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Śyāmasundara: The cream in England is excellent. (pause) [break] Prabhupāda: So if the monarch becomes ideal, it will be very nice. David Wynne: Yes. Śyāmasundara: There is still a feeling... In all other countries, everyone thinks, "I can become the leader. I can become president." "I can become prime minister." But in this country, everyone still must think, "I cannot become the king. I cannot become the queen." The king is something higher. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. David Wynne: That's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Wynne: Because one sometimes feels that one isn't, doesn't know enough about it to do this, you know. Prabhupāda: Or better than that is to praise the Creator. Devotee: This sculpting is such a nice art. You're very fortunate to have such a skill. Prabhupāda: You can... (Prabhupāda is eating) Horrible. ...carve so many pastimes of God, Kṛṣṇa's. In India, the sculptor used to do like that. Haṁsadūta: Everywhere, all over the world, art's business was to make scenes of..., spiritual scenes. David Wynne: There's no great art that isn't religious in the world, that isn't to do about God. Because art about man is already debased, isn't it. Yes, must be. But I feel that if one even me, even people like me, the ordinary people making ordinary things, if they're, if it is praising nature... Because nature's an aspect of God, isn't it. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Wynne: And a pure one. Not, not spoiled. Anyway, that's what I tell myself. (laughs) What I mean is, if one makes a bird, if it has the feeling that because Kṛṣṇa breathed life into it and made it, and if one can reproduce this and get the spirit of it, that's praising... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also indirect praising. But you can praise Him directly. Śyāmasundara: I think part of the trouble with our modern age is that no one has any information about God. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is God. Śyāmasundara: They can't praise Him directly because they don't know what He looks like or what He does. (Prabhupāda is still eating.) Prabhupāda: What is this, behind the halavā? Śrutakīrti: Behind it? Prabhupāda: Hm? Something is coming out, white? Śrutakīrti: Oh, they probably put cream in it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: That's all right? David Wynne: Very good. Thank you. Lovely. Prabhupāda: So how do you like our philosophy? David Wynne: How do I like...? Prabhupāda: Our philosophy. David Wynne: I, I like it, I admire it very much. I don't know... Prabhupāda: Thank you. David Wynne: I don't know very much. Prabhupāda: I know, you, you, in one day or one minute, how can you know? But our basic principles of philosophy. *David Wynne: Yeah. I've been... I was more or less brought up... My mother told me when I was very small that the Bhagavad*-gītā was the most important book in the world. Prabhupāda: Oh! David Wynne: And the *Upaniṣads* and the *Vedas* and the... Prabhupāda: Oh, you are fortunate. David Wynne: So I've always known that it was true, but one, one's knowledge is very shallow. It's always felt true, is what I mean. Because an arti..., you know, a sculptor goes more by feeling than by thinking, you know. Prabhupāda: Sometimes in your, by your convenience you can come to our temple and see how they are executing devotional... David Wynne: Hm. Also one can tell a little bit about your teaching by the people one knows who were taught. I know Sam and I know George, and they've changed. George has grown much more, much more than the others. But I knew them when they were very young, you know. Prabhupāda: Aiye. David Wynne: And George now has gained enormously in spiritual steps. Prabhupāda: He's a very intelligent boy. David Wynne: Oh yes. But he now is wise as well as just clever. Prabhupāda: He's fortunate. David Wynne: And so, from this I think... Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara has tried his utmost to convince him about Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: He said, "Other religions... [break] ...come for a short time." (Breaks in tape) Prabhupāda: Give him little, some more purīs. David Wynne: No, I'm all right, really. I'm doing very well. Śyāmasundara: ...and something to wash hands in. (door closes) Prabhupāda: No, he's bringing. You can take. Śyāmasundara: David has said that he would like to spend some time, a day or something, making also your form into stone. Is that...? Or into some metal. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: Well, what I am? I am insignificant. I have no objection. Our, some of our artists may paint this picture. I liked it very much. (Probably speaking of picture of Ratha cart in the Guardian newspaper) Śyāmasundara: It's a very good photo. *Mukunda: It was taken in such a way so that the cart looks like it is almost as tall as Nelson's Column. Fish*-eye lens. Śyāmasundara: Very clever person who has thought up this idea. Prabhupāda: No other publication? Śyāmasundara: I didn't see the newspapers today. I saw two or three, but on Sunday the reporters do not work. So if they were reporters coming, they came outside of their work hours. Some... I heard on television last night, though, there was a half hour program. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Wasn't it? You saw? Mukunda: Yeah. On the news they had a long sequence. Prabhupāda: You have seen? *Mukunda: No, Ranchor said it was very first*-class. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mukunda: Every statement was very positive. Śyāmasundara: What was that word he used? Mukunda: Glorifying. Śyāmasundara: They glorified the whole parade on television. They didn't make fun of it or like that. Prabhupāda: Nobody should make fun. Śyāmasundara: It wasn't just an objective report, but they said it was good, it was nice, and had good appeal. Prabhupāda: Yeah, everyone appreciated. Mukunda: The last thing they said on the program was, "Perhaps this will give us something to think about for a long time." Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. David Wynne: It must. Śyāmasundara: No one could deny. They had never seen such a colorful parade, so full of festivity. (Someone walks up to Prabhupāda.) Prabhupāda: Oh, I could have gone there. All right. (Sound of washing hands in bowl.) Yes. So I am very glad that you have come and you have taken prasādam. Very nice. David Wynne: Thank you, sir. Prabhupāda: And we had very good talks also. I'm very glad. Śyāmasundara: I'm hoping George will come tomorrow. He has indicated he would come Tuesday. Prabhupāda: There is basin. You can wash your hands. Wash the dishes. Śyāmasundara: Even at night the sun is shining still. Or rather, the day is night. Prabhupāda: Here. There is basin. You can wash. David Wynne: Yes. Prabhupāda: I think I am eating more here. (laughter) Is it not? Trivikrama: . Yes. Prabhupāda: I could not eat, in India. Trivikrama: Apparently, it's not causing any trouble either. Prabhupāda: At least, not yet. Trivikrama: Not yet. Prabhupāda: That means I must have improved. Otherwise, how I am eating? I could not eat. Śrutakīrti: No hunger. Prabhupāda: No hunger. Śrutakīrti: India is so hot. It's so hot there you don't want to eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Bothersome. Dhanañjaya: It was a nice talk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Sublime. Prabhupāda: The subject matter is sublime. Haṁsadūta: This boy that you were talking to this afternoon is... Prabhupāda: Now everything is finished. (laughter) Dhanañjaya: Now he must stay. Devotee: He's going around to everyone. Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: Would you like to wash your hands, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I have got. Now you can distribute amongst yourselves. They have been... Devotee: This is a nice book, Upadeśāmṛta. Prabhupāda: You have seen it. Devotee: Yes, it's very nice. (pause) Śyāmasundara: If one tries to praise the Creator by, directly, with his ability, what, how does he know what to...? Prabhupāda: There are so many standard prayers. Śyāmasundara: By his work, I mean. *Prabhupāda: Yes. To glorify God means the glorify the nature also. Just like here is a poem in Brahma*-saṁ... Śyāmasundara: So we see in the creation of God, it also traces back to the Creator. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation means the Creator. Just like when I see the picture of so many sculptor. So who has done it? I come to David. To appreciate the creation means you have to come to the point, appreciating the Creator. Otherwise, it is not finished. Or your knowledge is imperfect still. So these scientists, they are simply trying to study the creation. They have no knowledge about the Creator. That is the defect. Neither do they try, neither they can understand. They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect. Just like the scientists, they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say, "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience... Just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā. In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge. Why this book is "David Wynne"? Now, you go to the creator. And ...the all appreciation is there, credit is given there. That is perfect. Otherwise, you see, so many stones are there, figures are there. But when you study that "This is the creation of such and such artist, sculptor, and he's such and such," then that is perfect. Study him. Śyāmasundara: Just like by my knowing David, it's very easy to understand his sculpture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: But someone who's just seeing his sculpture, they don't know what... Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: They don't know what he's like. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not perfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge is when you understand the creator. What do you think? David Wynne: I think yes. I'm not sure that the analogy..., I think that the greatest... Well, it is true because with the greatest sculpture, one does get to the full understanding, but if one really understands the universe, well, one would see God, I suppose. Prabhupāda: No. David Wynne: No. Prabhupāda: You have to penetrate. You have to understand who has created this universe. David Wynne: Yes. Yes. But if a great artist was no longer alive, people would still appreciate... Prabhupāda: No, but the God is not like that, no longer alive. David Wynne: No, but that's what I mean. The analogy falls down there, doesn't it. Prabhupāda: God is not like that. Śyāmasundara: But you're saying that it's better to first penetrate and understand God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Then understand the universe. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Before understanding, trying to understand God by His universe. David Wynne: And science almost denies the existence of God in order to exist, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: That is a rascal. These rascals say like that. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is rascal number one. Immediately. And anyone, he may be a great scientist or philosopher, let him come. If he says that "I don't believe in God," then I shall prove that "You are rascal number one." That I shall prove. Śyāmasundara: We'll bring you some scientists. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientists, psychologists, philosophers came to me. David Wynne: But the greatest scientists have..., are the humblest. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge, when one becomes humbler: "Oh, God is so great." That is real scientist. I think Professor Einstein, he admitted. Mukunda: Yes, he said that "I want to know how God created the universe. Everything else is details." Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means he's still thinking, "My knowledge is imperfect because I do not know about God." That is real scientist. Śyāmasundara: Just studying one small part of God's creation... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: ...is, is... *Prabhupāda: You see how nicely God has created this flower. How nice artist he is, how he has put the color exactly to the same point. So there is no hand? This is foolishness. It is going on. There is hand of God, but how His hand is working we do not know. That is explained in the Vedas: parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. He has got so subtle power that it is working, but we are seeing that it is automatically being done. But He's working. He's working. Just like we work. To paint one flower, we require a brush, color and so many things. Similarly He also requires. But His requirement are supplied so quickly that we see, "It is being automatically done." That is the... Because He's so perfect and unlimited that His working capacity we cannot follow. These are explained in the Upaniṣads, that God has no leg, but He can go so fast that nobody can compete with Him. These are the statements the Upaniṣads, that He goes so fast that nobody can compete with Him, nobody can go with Him. That is God's energy. So when it is said, "God has no leg," that means He has no this imperfect leg. He has go..., He has got so perfect leg that nobody can walk with Him. This is the idea. Not that God has no leg. He has got leg, but not this rascal leg. After walking three miles, that's all, finished. (laughter) Not like that. Not like that. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ. He sees, but he has no eyes. These are the statements in the Vedas. He has no eyes... Just like we have got eyes, but we cannot see beyond this wall. But He can see everyone's heart, what he is thinking, what he is doing, everything. You cannot hide anything from His seeing. Paśyati. That is, that is His seeing. Paśyaty acakṣuḥ. As soon as we hear something "seeing," immediately understand the relative term that one must have eyes to see. Then when the Vedas says acakṣuḥ, immediately warns that "Don't think God has got eyes like you." Because as soon as we think of eyes, we think of our eyes. We cannot think that there can be eyes which can penetrate everywhere. We cannot think of that. And therefore they become impersonalists. Because we rascals, when we think of God's personality, we think of our personality. "So we are imperfect. Therefore, how God can be person? He must be just opposite." Imperfect knowledge. They cannot think, these impersonalists, that God is person but all His bodily construction is perfect, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. That Him they cannot think. That means poor fund of knowledge. The impersonalist cannot think that having eyes, how one can see everything all at a time, past, present and future. But that is impossible by us because we have got imperfect eyes. Therefore they conclude, "No eyes. He must be without eyes." Imperfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: So if God is a person with eyes, legs, He stays in one place? *Prabhupāda: Again, the same... You are comparing with yourself. Because your person can stay in one place only. That means you are simply comparing the Personality of Godhead with your personality. That you have to forget. He, He stays everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. Therefore we have to consult the authoritative Vedic literature. This answer is there, that goloka eva nivasaty, "He is living in Goloka Vṛndāvana; still, He is everywhere." You cannot think of. You are in this apartment. You are not in your office. But Kṛṣṇa, although He's in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He's everywhere, in everyone's heart. He's seeing everything. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That means you want to compare with your, this foolish, imperfect personality with God's personality. That is our defect. He's distinct from our personality, but He's a person. Yes. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He's also a person like us, He's also living entity like us. But what is the difference? He's the maintainer; *we are maintained. How many persons you can maintain? A family of two children and one wife, you are embarrassed. And He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti... Innumerable living entities, He's supplying food everyone. He's supplying food the ants within the hole of your room there are thousands of ants. You are not supplying food. How they are getting food? Similarly, you go to the African jungle. There are thousands and millions of elephants. They eat one at a, oh, huge quantity. He's giving food. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. In the air, within the water, there are so many living entities. In the air there are so many living entities. On the land there are so many living entities. Everywhere. How He's feeding? That is the distinction between God's personality and our personality. We are embarrassed to maintain a family of four, five members, and He is maintaining the whole family of living entities. Not only one planet, there are innumerable planets. And not only innumerable planets, the one universe, then innumerable universes. And these, all these taken together, this is one*-fourth creation of God. So three-fourth creation is of the spiritual world. Just imagine how big it is. All of them being maintained by that one. This is the difference. (Someone comes in). Come on. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. This is the distinction. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Haribol. *Prabhupāda: So you can, at any time, visit our temple. You can understand, try to understand the conception of God. We shall try to explain. But we can, at least, so far our knowledge is concerned, we have got a clear conception of God, what is meant by God. Therefore we do not accept the so*-called dogs as God. No. So many people come: "I am God. I am God." We kick on their face. We don't accept. We don't accept such cheap gods. God is one, and He's all-powerful. That is our conception. We all servants of God. If anyone says that "I am servant of God," he's welcome. He's my master. The servant of God is my master. And if anyone claims to become God, I kick on his face. This is our principle. Because he's pretender, cheater. He should be punished immediately. So you, there are other papers also, published? You have seen? No. Devotee: Are there any papers, newspaper articles? Śyāmasundara: I'll find out, report tomorrow. Kulaśekhara: There's none today. David Wynne: There's other pictures inside, though, aren't there. Śyāmasundara: You saw inside the pictures? Prabhupāda: Yes. But this picture is very nice. Śyāmasundara: Yes. The other pictures were quite revealing too, because they showed Englishmen and Indian people, foreigners everyone. Prabhupāda: Everyone, yes. And they have declared that we have distributed "free prasādam." Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: "To all and sundry." Prabhupāda: Yes. David Wynne: You should write and ask for prints. They'll send you proper prints of that in the paper, you know. Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's a good idea. We'll try to get the photograph of that, original photograph from the paper. Prabhupāda: Hm. That will be very nice. Śyāmasundara: We can use it in our magazine. Cover photo. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Śyāmasundara: Make it a cover photo for a magazine. Prabhupāda: "Rival of Nelson." *Śyāmasundara: Yeah, "A Rival of Nelson." Just before, maybe two months ago, the boy who was in charge of Ratha*-yātrā, Mahā-viṣṇu, we were, he was in so much torment because where was the money going to come from to create such an extravaganza. He wanted to have the best festival ever made. And suddenly he got a letter in the mail: "Your aunt has died, has left you eight thousand pounds." (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: Just see. Śyāmasundara: So with that money, he has spent everything for Kṛṣṇa, just to glorify Him in that way. He even printed the magazine, everything. Prabhupāda: His aunt's money has been properly utilized. Śyāmasundara: What arrangements do you want to make for making a model of Prabhupāda? David Wynne: Well, I... Śyāmasundara: When will you be free? David Wynne: Yes, it depends on... I'll be free... Śyāmasundara: How much time do you need to? David Wynne: Oh, not very long. Two days maybe. But it'll have to be a bit later on. Śyāmasundara: That's... David Wynne: Maybe if... Śyāmasundara: Any time. David Wynne: August or (indistinct), I've got to go back to Morocco. Devotee: Do you translate now? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: You will translate now? *Prabhupāda: Translation? Yes. Everything is ready. Who has taken that Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Śrutakīrti: Must have been Pradyumna. Prabhupāda: He has not come back? Why he hasn't? Śrutakīrti: Yes, he's returned with his suitcase. And yours is at the airport. They would not give it to him because it was in my name. So they gave a form. I have to fill out the form and then anyone can pick it up. Śyāmasundara: Well, we can go tonight. Make out the form. *Śrutakīrti: (indistinct) are open all twenty*-four hours. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Make out the form. I'll go right now. Prabhupāda: First of all phone if they're open. *Śyāmasundara: Twenty*-four hours. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then that's all right. Then do it. I think you have to pay some money. Śrutakīrti: Yes, it will cost money. Śyāmasundara: That's all right. We tried to sell your coin today, but it's only worth three or four pounds. Prabhupāda: Well, that's not bad. (laughter) One rupee. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. That's not bad for one rupee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like... Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has this mint 1935, 1835 rupee piece. Show it to him. Prabhupāda: Indian rupee. Śyāmasundara: Indian rupee. And we thought it might be pretty valuable. So old, more than one hundred years. We went to three places, they all said three, four pounds. Prabhupāda: So highest bid, what was? Mukunda: The highest bid I got was one pound. They said if it was in mint condition, we'd get two pounds. David Wynne: Yes, I think, (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Mukunda: He said if it was in perfect condition, mint condition, then he would give me two pounds. But in this condition, only one pound. He brought out many samples of old rupees with different people on them. Prabhupāda: You said three pounds? *Śyāmasundara: He told me. He said "Two*-three, it's only worth two-three pounds." Mukunda: One man said three pounds. Prabhupāda: So why don't you sell to them? (laughter) Śyāmasundara: If we tell them... If we go around the city, we could probably get four pounds for it somewhere. Prabhupāda: So get the best price and sell it. Śyāmasundara: All right. Prabhupāda: I don't want any antique. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Oh, this... Which king is this? David Wynne: That's William the (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Oh, King William. The British... Prabhupāda: I think Queen Victoria's father. King William. Is it not? David Wynne: Uh huh. (Yes.) Śyāmasundara: When David was commissioned by the Queen's husband, Duke of Edinbur...? Duke of...? David Wynne: Edinburgh. Śyāmasundara: Duke of Edinburgh. He went before a committee of the Duke and how many...? You tell us. David Wynne: Twelve. Śyāmasundara: He won a competition over many others for that privilege to make the coins. And his point was that the Queen Mother, the Queen on the coin, it should not be false representation. It should be... What was the...? You were telling us, that it should be as she is, depicted as she is. And they did not agree. But then he showed he, but then he showed them an old British coin. What year was it? David Wynne: Yes. Well, Queen Elizabeth the First, a gold coin, very beautiful. And I said this was a work of art, and I showed them. It's a very beautiful thing. And I said, "I could do you one like that." So they... So I got the job. But he was very annoyed. Śyāmasundara: East India Company, it says on here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So the coins were given out by the East India Company. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all the Britishers went there as East India Company to have trade connection. Śyāmasundara: Disguise. So we should sell it for any price? Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, people could purchase any amount of coins from the currency. Śyāmasundara: From who? Prabhupāda: From the currency, government currency. Śyāmasundara: Government. Prabhupāda: Any amount of coins. In our childhood... Why our childhood? Even when we were young men, the Indians, generally, they like Guinea gold, British Guinea, what is called, pound? Śyāmasundara: One pound, one shilling. Prabhupāda: So in India it was available, any amount. You pay price and take. And they would melt it and make ornament, that Guinea gold. There was no restriction. You can purchase any amount. Śyāmasundara: Why all of a sudden it changed? Prabhupāda: But, they have lost all gold. There is no gold, simply paper. That's all. Simply blessing, "Yes, you'll get money." (laughter) But you'll never get. In the bank also, any amount of gold you can purchase. Bank was canvassing that "You take gold from us." I do not know where those gold gone. Nowhere, all over the world, you cannot purchase gold. Even in America. Śyāmasundara: You can purchase some places, but the price is so high for a small amount. Prabhupāda: Zurich, you can get. Śyāmasundara: Yes, Switzerland. Prabhupāda: But you cannot get out with the gold. Śyāmasundara: No, officially not. Prabhupāda: Well? Then? Suppose you purchase gold there. If you want to take out, they will not allow. Śyāmasundara: Not if they find it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Officially, no, they will not allow. Prabhupāda: And these currency notes, the price, commodity, has gone so high due to this rascal currency. Because your enemy country, they print counterfeit and they overflood in the market. So how you can check it? You cannot check. I know, during wartime, a Chinese man was coming in Calcutta, and he had a purchasing agent who was my friend. So he would come, and he would give a list of goods, especially rare medicines, and he'll deposit with him bunch of notes, "You spend, purchase, and whatever..." That means all those notes were counterfeit. (end) Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London Prabhupāda: ...Greek dictionary, Kristo Mr. Wadell: Kristo... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Wadell: Well yes, Prabhupāda: Kristo Mr. Wadell: "The anointed." Prabhupāda: "Anointed," yes. Mr. Wadell: I understand. Prabhupāda: So in India, ordinary men, they call Kṛṣṇa "Kristo." My younger brother, his name was Kṛṣṇa. But we are calling him "Kristo." That is ordinary use. So this Kristo word came from India. What is your opinion? Mr. Wadell: I'm sorry. Can you...? Are you asking me? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kristo. This is called apabhraṁśa. Apa means perverted, perverted spelling of Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Wadell: I do not know the true answer to that question, I'm afraid. Prabhupāda: And the meaning, anointed. What is the explanation of anointed? Mr. Wadell: I am not sure whether this was a title applied to him by his disciples or whether it was a title which he himself explained to them, and it makes a difference whether he regarded himself as being anointed... If so he would have said this was by the..., his father. Prabhupāda: But Kristo is person. Mr. Wadell: It is a name applied to... Prabhupāda: It is a name, then it must be a person. Mr. Wadell: Yes, that is true. But the name is not always the same as the thing it describes or the person it describes. My name, I have said, is spelled in English in a certain way. It could be pronounced Waddle, Wawdle or, you know what I mean. Prabhupāda: No, I am just suggesting there is similarity and the meaning "anointed." And from Kristo, the word Christ has come. Mr. Wadell: Yes, in English, that is quite true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now the Christ, what is the meaning of Christ? Mr. Wadell: I, well, it is this that he is the anointed. Prabhupāda: No, Christ means love, something like that. Mr. Wadell: It is connected, I suppose, with the word meaning grace, which is... There is another Greek word which is "havis."(?) But I am not a theologian. You know, I am not a brilliant man who understands all the meanings of the words in the Christian faith. But I think the word Christ means anointed, and that it may well be connected with another word which means grace or favor. But I don't think it is the same word. Prabhupāda: My idea is that if we can connect this Kristo and Christ, that "love of Godhead," there is some meaning. Because we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are teaching people how to love God. That is our... Mr. Wadell: To love is very difficult, is it not? It is very difficult. Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. Mr. Wadell: Well, it is both difficult and not difficult. Prabhupāda: No. Everything, there is a Bengali word, yanra karya tare saje, anya loke lati baje. (?) Anything, if one is practiced to do, he can do it very easily. And for others, it is just like striking with a rod. Anya loke lati baje. Suppose if there is some difficulty in electricity, I do not know anything. It will be very, very difficult task for me. But anyone who knows, immediately he connects two wires, there is light. It is simply to know the art. Mr. Wadell: Yes, I would say with respect, it is easy to feel love for people. It is not always easy to put this love into practice. Sometimes to love, you may have to be hard, apparently hard, to a person if you wish to help them. *Prabhupāda: The thing is that we want to love people, we want to help them, but if we do not know the process... The same thing, love or hate. That's it. You should know the process how to love. So our process is according to Vedic injunction, that yathā taror mūla*-niṣecanena tṛpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopaśākhāḥ [SB 4.31.14]. Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, automatically the branches, the trees, everything, watered. Prāṇopahārāc ca yatendriyāṇām. If you supply food to the stomach, the energy is distributed to the hands, legs, eyes, and everywhere. This is the process. But if you take the food and separately push on in the eyes and the ears and the hands and the fingers it is useless. Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I agree, but... *Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you try to pour water to each leaf of the tree, it will be simply waste of time. Similarly, God is the root of everything. Our Vedānta*-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], Absolute Truth, wherefrom everything has come. So if we love the root, God, then we can love others. Otherwise not possible. Otherwise it is simply waste of time. They have tried. The so-called humanitarian work they have tried. Unity and fraternity and so on, big, big words. But it has not come to... Because there is no love of Godhead, it has failed. Even the United Nations. Central point is missing. So our Vedic injunction is that sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: [SB 1.2.6] "That system of religion is perfect which teaches how to love God." It doesn't matter, Christian religion, Hindu religion, Mohammedan religion, it doesn't matter. But God minus, this is the present position. Everyone wants to make minus God everything. This is going on. They have no clear idea. If I want to love you, I must have a clear idea of you. On vague idea, I cannot love. But they have no clear idea what is God. So how they can love God? And because they have failed to love God, all the so-called love, humanitarian, philanthropic works and, you know, they have become useless. Mr. Wadell: Yes. The problem is a very big one. We are, perhaps, sent into this earth to know or to learn how to love. Prabhupāda: No. I have got some objection. You cannot begin any scientific statement with the word "perhaps." (W. laughs) We don't accept. You must be assured, you must be assured. Mr. Wadell: I am merely saying... I do not wish to be presumptuous, if you understand me. Prabhupāda: Well as soon as you say, "perhaps," "maybe," that is not... This has no meaning. Because it is not certain. You have no clear idea. Mr. Wadell: But are there not things about which in the mortal life one can have no clear idea? Prabhupāda: But if there is clear idea, why they should not take it? Why they should speculate "perhaps," "maybe"? Mr. Wadell: But there are many things about which I cannot have any clear idea. I cannot... Prabhupāda: No, you cannot have but if you get clear idea, why you do not take it. Mr. Wadell: No, I mean even in the physical realm. I cannot at this moment conceive what it is like, say, to be in Sydney, in many cities in the world. There are many things, many bits of knowledge which I cannot have. I cannot be everywhere at once. I am here now. I do not even know what is happening in the place from which I have come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Wadell: And I must accept that. I cannot be certain about that. Would you not agree? Prabhupāda: But if there is a process... Suppose you are not in Sydney, but if there is a radio message from Sydney, how do you accept it? Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I'd believe it. Prabhupāda: Then that is a question of belief. Mr. Wadell: But that is not... Belief is not quite the same thing as... Prabhupāda: No that is not belief; *that is fact. Suppose a radio message is coming from Sydney, we accept it*-fact. Although I am not in Sydney. So it is a question of process, how to receive the message. If the process is perfect, then the message is perfect. Mr. Wadell: But one has to believe the... Prabhupāda: Yes, if the process is perfect, one has to believe, one has to believe. Just like I will give you one example: Nobody knows who is his father; neither it is possible to know one's father by speculation. But there is a process. If you ask your mother, and if she: "This gentleman is your father," you accept the process and you get the perfect knowledge. Mr. Wadell: One could look like one's brother. (laughs) Prabhupāda: What. I do not follow. What is...? Mr. Wadell: You do not understand? Śyāmasundara: Say it again. Mr. Wadell: I have a brother, who is very like me, and, well, this helps me to believe that I know who my father was. Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Wadell: In one sense. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Because one gentleman resembles your features, you think that he is your brother. That is another thing. But here the process that if you want to know who is your father, the process is it should be known through the mother. There is no other process. It is not that suggestion: because somebody resembles my face, he is my father. Not like that. It is the perfect process. Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree with what you say. I am just adding another explanation. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you cannot understand your father by any other process. This is the only process. That means things which are unknown, beyond our conception, you have to know it through the authority. Just like you know your father through the authority of your mother. Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree. But... Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that things which are beyond our imagination cannot be known. You cannot say that. Can be known, provided you have got the real process. Mr. Wadell: I'm afraid I must make, so far as I am concerned, a clear division between what I know and what I believe. There are certain things... It is maybe, partly a use of words, but whereas I know that I am here and that I have people in..., I am in the same room with other men... Prabhupāda: Do you think that this process, as I have suggested, to know one's father through the authority of the mother is not perfect? Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I think it's as near perfect as you can get. Prabhupāda: Why you say, "as near"? Why still doubt? Mr. Wadell: Because it is not quite the same thing as my knowing that I am here. There's a famous French philosopher who began all his philosophy from the phrase "I am conscious; therefore I know that I exist." And he deduced everything, you know, starting from here. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. You are conscious, I am conscious, that's a fact. It is not the question of belief. It is not question of belief. Belief may be wrong, but fact is fact. Mr. Wadell: Yes, agreed. Prabhupāda: So when one's... I say that I am conscious, you say you are conscious. We are conscious. That's a fact. And that consciousness is the symptom of the presence of the soul. Because from the dead body... Dead body means when the soul departs from the body, there is no more consciousness. Mr. Wadell: This is something on which I think I am probably too young or too..., I have not thought enough about it to be able to tell you very clearly or to define very clearly what I think. This is very difficult I know. But I am conscious that I do not know about this. I can make certain... I mean I am inclined to accept what you say, but I cannot say that I know it. Prabhupāda: Therefore when we are in doubts, therefore we have to refer to the authority. Just like when you are diseased, so you go to the physician, "What is the cause of my this trouble?" Similarly, when you are in doubts, you have to approach an authority to clear the doubts. Otherwise you will remain in doubts, ignorance. Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes. *Prabhupāda: Therefore our Vedic injunction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad-vijñānārtham, in order to clear the doubt, to be in perfect knowledge, one must approach the authorized bona fide spiritual master. Mr. Wadell: Can we go back to the physician. It is possible for a physician to be wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are always in wrong because we are born ignorant. Everything is wrong because ignorant, foolish. Madman's conception. This is all wrong, childish. Therefore we send our boys, children, to school, to correct the wrong ideas. Mr. Wadell: But some of the teachers may not be correct. Prabhupāda: No. The process is you have to go to the teacher. But if the teacher is a cheater, then the whole thing is spoiled. A teacher must be teacher, perfect teacher. But if he happens to be a cheater then the whole thing is spoiled. Mr. Wadell: But the human situation is often a sort of mixture of the two. Sometimes... Prabhupāda: No, mixture of two, that may be, but the process is that we have to approach the real teacher. Just like I approach the mother. Mother is supposed to be not cheater. But if the mother happens to be a cheater, then I am cheated. I am cheated. I don't get the information of my real father. But it is expected the mother should not cheat. Mr. Wadell: Yes, oh I know that it is expected of the teachers. Prabhupāda: So it is my misfortune; if I get a cheater mother, then my whole life is spoiled. Mr. Wadell: But the teacher may be wrong without wishing to be wrong. Prabhupāda: No, he is not teacher. If a teacher is wrong, he is cheater. That is our proposition. Mr. Wadell: Well, I'm sorry, this is a point which we must surely... Prabhupāda: This is the real point. If you have to go to a teacher, you must go to a real teacher. You don't go to a cheater. Mr. Wadell: But suppose I teach you something, a subject in which knowledge is not complete. Prabhupāda: Then you should not be teacher. Then you should not be teacher. Then you are cheater. Mr. Wadell: But... No, because knowledge is... Prabhupāda: That is, that is, that is our... Teacher means... When I approach a teacher, he must be a bona fide teacher. He should not be cheater. If he has no sufficient knowledge, he should not pose himself as a teacher. Mr. Wadell: Well, I am afraid I would be right out of court cause you see I have often to confess to my pupils that I do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on, but that is not the system. If you do not know, you should not become a teacher. That is our proposition. (laughs) Mr. Wadell: I see, well I am not at all sure that I could accept what you say. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You must be sure that whatever knowledge you are giving, that is perfect. Then you are teacher. Mr. Wadell: Well, you see, what you are... In that case, I should have to pretend, you see. I would have to pretend to know something which I did not know at all. Then I should be a cheater, wouldn't I. And that would be wrong. And there must be many things which I do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is better to become honest. If I do not know anything perfectly I should not be teacher. That is right thing. And if I have got doubtful knowledge, perhaps, maybe, why shall I be teacher. I should, "No, no I cannot teach. The subject is unknown." That is our process. Mr. Wadell: Yes. I must say that I, there are many things of which I haven't got knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. That is going on. Therefore people are misled. Mr. Wadell: No. I would mislead them more if I said that I knew. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. If you do not know, why should you say you knew? That is another cheating. Mr. Wadell: How do you mean? Prabhupāda: If... When you know... Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I don't pretend. If I know something, I say I know, but... Prabhupāda: Then you say that..., you say, "I know." Mr. Wadell: But when I do not know something then I admit that I do not know it. Prabhupāda: Yes. That admission, that's all right. But in that case, one should not take the post of the teacher. That is our Vedic injunction. One must know perfectly. Mr. Wadell: You may well be right. (laughter) But actually, I think there are many things which, about which knowledge is changing. There are things... Prabhupāda: That means cheating. Mr. Wadell: I see you have here, certain bits of equipment which didn't exist... Prabhupāda: That is described in the Vedic literature: andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: [SB 7.5.31] "A blind man is trying to lead other blind men." Mr. Wadell: I suspect that that is as probably very near to the truth of human situation... Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. What is the benefit? If I am blind and if there are hundreds of blind men, "All right, come on, I shall..." Mr. Wadell: I think we are all partially blind. Prabhupāda: No, then there is no question of knowledge. Somebody must be with eyes. He can give knowledge. That is our proposition. As soon as you say blind, there must be somebody with eyes. It is a relative term. It is a relative term. You cannot say, "all are blind." Then there is no question of blind and with men eyes. As soon as you accept blind man, you must accept the other side, man with eyes. Mr. Wadell: Oh, I see. You mean just as you distinguish from white, black because it is different... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is relative world. *Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view-may I explain this*-of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man. Mr. Wadell: No. But where does your perfect knowledge come from and how do you recognize it? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important point, where to get the perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Therefore the *Vedas* says, gurum eva abhigacchet: "You go to a guru." "Guru" means heavy, who knows better than you, or who knows perfect. That is injunction. Mr. Wadell: But, you see, this is... Prabhupāda: We have to find out, we have to find out who can give the perfect knowledge. Mr. Wadell: How do you know that you know? May I ask this? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mr. Wadell: This is the point which, I would find, you know, without disrespect, this is something which is very difficult, whatever kind of faith you have. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of faith. Faith may be wrong, belief may be wrong. That perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect source. So God is perfect. God is perfect. And one who follows the path of God, he is also perfect. Mr. Wadell: But he is different from God, is he not? Prabhupāda: Maybe. Just like... Mr. Wadell: But this is important to me. Can, can...? Prabhupāda: The same process. The mother gives the perfect knowledge, and the son receives the knowledge. So the knowledge received from the mother by the son is perfect. The son may not be perfect, but because he has received the knowledge from the mother, which is perfect, therefore he is perfect. Mr. Wadell: In what respect do you consider yourself different from God? Prabhupāda: Do you think I am also equal with God? Mr. Wadell: If you, what I want to know is what you feel your relationship to God is. Prabhupāda: My relationship is just like father and the son. The son is not different from the father; at the same time, he is different from the father. Mr. Wadell: Yes... *Prabhupāda: The same relationship. We are all sons of God. Therefore, simultaneously, we are one and different. As son, the ingredient, the same. But he is father, we are son, we are different. This is called the philosophy of acintya*-bhedābheda. Bheda means different, and abheda means one. So simultaneously one and different. Mr. Wadell: May I ask you another question, which is, I have a mortal father, a man, who you know my parents, father and mother. Do you think that my father is in any way different in his parentage of me from God in His parentage of me. Prabhupāda: No, everyone. Not only your father, your grandfather, your, or grandson, the same relationship: simultaneously one and different... Because we are spirit soul and God is the supreme soul. All the souls have come, emanated from Him. He is the supreme soul and Paramātmā. The exact word used in the Vedic language, Paramātmā, Parabrahma, Parameśvara. This word param. Param means supreme. Mr. Wadell: I accept that without any trouble. There's no... Prabhupāda: The difference is God... In the *Vedas* it is stated that God is just like a person like you and me. Just like we are persons, we are talking face to face, similarly, God is also a person. But... We are also persons. But what is the difference between these two classes of persons. Mr. Wadell: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Yes, the difference is eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. God is the maintainer, the supplier of all necessities of the so many persons. That is God. Mr. Wadell: Yes, I accept that. Prabhupāda: This is the difference. We are maintained, and He is maintainer. That is difference. Otherwise, God is also person, I am also person. One is maintainer and others, the plural number, they are maintained. In the Christian religion also, the same idea is: "God give us our daily bread," maintenance. So that is the difference. He is the bread supplier, and we are bread eater. That's all. Mr. Wadell: He doesn't supply his bread to everybody unless... Prabhupāda: Everybody, yes, everybody. Beginning... Mr. Wadell: People die, do they not? Prabhupāda: Die, that is another thing. People die even if he has got many things to eat, still he dies. Can you check it? That does not depend on eating. There are many men. They are dying. Although they are... Mr. Wadell: I am taking you too literally. Let us forget about that point. It's not worthwhile. Prabhupāda: No, no, because you say, "They are dying, God is not supplying," that is a mistaken idea. God is supplying. God is supplying. He is dying natural death. It is not that because there is want of supply, therefore he is dying. That is a mistaken idea. Death is not dependent on supply of food. There are so many other causes. Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree about that, but you cannot... Prabhupāda: And death is inevitable. Even if you have sufficient to eat, you cannot avoid death. So death is inevitable. That is the problem of material life. Birth, death, old age and disease. So you cannot avoid it. So long you are materially existing. This can be avoided when you are spiritually elevated. That is our movement. *Mr. Wadell: Yes, you cannot live without... You do not, as we say, live by bread alone. And in that sense-it may be the sense in which you wish me to take*-the sense, what you are saying, that God supplies bread, because bread could be both bread for the spirit or soul... Prabhupāda: No, bread is material. Bread is material. To maintain your material body, you require material bread. But spiritual body does not depend on material bread. Mr. Wadell: Could we go back to the relationship between you or all of us and God? What my own experience has suggested to me is that the language which I use and the language which has been used by others to describe what we think Him to be is not really capable of accomplishing this very difficult task. It is an impossible task in fact because we are describing something which is so immeasurably greater, more difficult to understand fully. We can have a relationship, but I find it, the language which we use, is of... Prabhupāda: Insufficient. Mr. Wadell: ...of mortal things which are in our experience, and we apply those to something beyond the purely mortal realm, and sometimes the descriptions we use are to be taken only to a certain extent. They are useful as illustrations but they are not to be taken as necessarily a fact. I think this has misled many people when they think about God, that we use a description and it's rather like what we talked about to begin with, the question of names. Prabhupāda: Question of? Mr. Wadell: Names. Yes, I wrote my name for my friend here, and we joked as we came in about how this name should be pronounced. And, of course, it depends how people, how well people know me, which name would apply to me. But I want to go one further than that and I want to say that to know a name or a large number of facts and to be able to make a large number of statements about people is not the same as really knowing this person. And this is our difficulty as I see it in relating ourselves to God, that although we make many statements about Him which are often picturesque ones. We say that He is almighty, that He can, in our religion, move mountains or all sorts of separate statements like that. If you take all those statements together, they wouldn't really describe him at all sufficiently. Prabhupāda: Now, suppose one man is engineer. So if I address him "Mr. engineer," what is the wrong? Mr. Wadell: Oh, there is nothing wrong so long as you... Prabhupāda: No, this particular name, when I give to him, what is the wrong? Mr. Wadell: The only thing is that it is not complete. Prabhupāda: Why not? That "engineer" word completes his situation. He is engineer. Mr. Wadell: Well, you might say to me, "Teacher," but that would not be complete. That would not be a complete description Prabhupāda: No, it is complete. Mr. Wadell: It is true, but it is not complete. Prabhupāda: But when it is true, it is complete. Mr. Wadell: I don't think so. You see, I could... If I say, "This wall is white," that is a true statement, but it is not a complete statement. Because this wall is not like all white walls. There are many white walls which have not got curves in the corners or decoration at that particular point. Do you understand what I am trying to say? *Prabhupāda: But when... Just like when we say God, Kṛṣṇa, this word conveys the meaning "all*-attractive." So what is the wrong? This Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So unless God is all-attractive, how He can become God? It is not that God is for me God. God is for you also. God is for him also. Therefore He must be all-attractive. This is perfect... Mr. Wadell: But not necessarily in the same way. Because.... *Prabhupāda: No. Just to understand what is God, if you try to understand in this way that "God is good," "God is all*-attractive," is it not perfect? Mr. Wadell: It is a partial statement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Wadell: But it doesn't tell me... Prabhupāda: But then, when you go deep into the matter, you understand more and more. In the beginning... Mr. Wadell: But you will never, I suspect, here on earth understand... Prabhupāda: No, no, that suspicion I have already answered... Mr. Wadell: Not for me, you haven't. Prabhupāda: ...that you have to go through a process, right process. Then there will be no suspicion. The same example. But if you do not go through the process you will be always suspicious. Mr. Wadell: When I say, "suspect," what I mean is not anything bad. Prabhupāda: No, no, I know that. Mr. Wadell: You understand that all I mean is that I am not sure about this. I think it may be true. I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: That suspicion will continue unless you take the right process. Mr. Wadell: But there are, I do not think that this God gave me my mind with my eyes and my sight, hearing, all these factors of the senses, and the intellect and the soul, if we are correctly speaking when we speak of it as something independently existing... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mr. Wadell: He did not expect me, I'm sure, not... to reject questions. In my religion, my, must be just as much a part of me as all that my intellect tells me. There must be no question which my religion cannot stand up to. Prabhupāda: First of all you say that God has given you the intellect. He can withdraw it also. Mr. Wadell: Well, we say not, because... Prabhupāda: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also. Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God... Prabhupāda: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect. *Mr. Wadell: But you see, what we have also to explain*-why all men are not good. Now, if God chose, He could force all men to be good, but that is not the way. Prabhupāda: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad. *Mr. Wadell: But if God is all*-powerful and He cared to use His power... Prabhupāda: No, He does not interfere with your little independence. Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing. Mr. Wadell: Well, that's exactly what I meant. We are agreed. And... Prabhupāda: Yes. So that He does not do. Otherwise, otherwise, there is no meaning of being part and parcel of God. God is fully independent, and we are minute part of God. Therefore we have got independence. That independence is minute, but there is. So if God interferes with your independence, then you are no longer part and parcel of God. Therefore God says that "You do this." Now, I misuse my independence. I do not do it. Therefore I am bad. Mr. Wadell: Our positions do not differ on this point. We think exactly the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not do it. Just like your father says, "My dear son, do like this," but you disobey. Therefore you are bad son. So my badness is creation of my misuse of independence. Mr. Wadell: Yes. But it may not be entirely willful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God has given you the intelligence, and as I said, He can withdraw. Just like the same thing: The father said, "My dear son, do like this." But he is persisting in doing otherwise. Mr. Wadell: Yes, and for the same reason that He would not force, would therefore, for the same reason, not withdraw my intellect, having given it to me. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated, that is stated, that is stated. Just like I... Withdraw my intellect means I have given you the intellect that "You do like this." but you are persistent, doing otherwise, "All right, as you like, you do." This is withdrawal. Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, but one may be... Prabhupāda: There is no force. There is no force. Mr. Wadell: No, no. But what I want to go back to is the reason for disobedience. There are various possible ones. One may first not know what one is supposed to do. Secondly... Is that all right? Do you agree about that? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We do not know anything. We are to be considered all fools and rascals. That is our position. As soon as we come to this material world, accept a material body, we are all fools and rascals. Mr. Wadell: Do you accept the whole of the material world? Do you think there are some things in it which are wrong? Prabhupāda: Just like as soon as you come to the prison house, you are all criminals. You may be very intelligent, but because you are in the prison house, you are criminal. Because you are in the prison house, that is the proof that you are a criminal. You may be very intelligent man. Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I'm not claiming... I haven't any claim to goodness. You must understand that. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, any living entity, any living entity who is originally part and parcel of God, God is all*-good, therefore the part and parcel of God is also all-good. But as soon as comes to the material world, he [break] As exactly like the same, that as soon as one is put into the prison wall, within, he is a criminal. Now he has to undergo the criminal laws. Similarly, because we have come to this material world, we have to undergo the material tribulations. We cannot avoid. Mr. Wadell: Well this is a very long... We are now on a topic on which I should have to require or ask, if I put it more politely, much more time than I have. Now, I am a person with responsibility to my boys. I must go now and say our prayers in the Christian way, which... Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Mr. Wadell: ...Well, we profess up there, which not all believe, but some do, and they must be given their chance. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that is nice. Mr. Wadell: Will you please excuse me at this moment. I would very much like to come back and pursue this. Prabhupāda: Yes, you come often. Yes, you are welcome. Yes. Mr. Wadell: If you feel it is of any interest or value to you. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes, After 4 o'clock you can come. You are welcome. Śyāmasundara: You can come any night after 4 pm. Mr. Wadell: Yes, well, we have a very busy week, because, as I say, we are correcting papers, we are ending our term. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you must be busy. Mr. Wadell: But what we are talking about is something which doesn't change from today or tomorrow or yesterday. So when these things have been done, perhaps next week, I will come down. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you are welcome. I want that responsible persons like you should try to understand the scientific value of this movement. It is not a sentimental movement. It is based on philosophy, science, authority. Mr. Wadell: Well, it's on this question of authority, in a sense, that we would have the greatest difficulty. But another time, please. Prabhupāda: Well, every religion is authority. That's a fact. Mr. Wadell: It is, yes. That's true. But every individual is free and must find for themselves. *Prabhupāda: No, we, we... Our proposition is, our proposition is that sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. "That is first*-class religion which teaches the followers how to love God." This is our proposal. Mr. Wadell: Well, we shall see. We have a lot to... (laughs) It is quite possible that I too have been sent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give him some prasāda. Just wait little. Take prasādam. Our only fighting is against atheism, godlessness. This is our main fight. Mr. Wadell: I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. People say, "There is no God, God is dead. This is all humbug." And so many there are, atheistic proposals. We are giving fight against this atheism. Mr. Wadell: Will you excuse me. I must go. Pradyumna: He's just bringing little... Mukunda: We are just bringing you a little prasādam. Mr. Wadell: Oh, no, no, I must. I have my boys. They wait for me and I must be with them. (laughter) Prabhupāda: There is some prasādam. Śyāmasundara: He is teacher just down the road in the school. Prabhupāda: You take little this. Yes. Just take little. Mr. Wadell: May I take just. Prabhupāda: Just little. I am not giving you much. (lots of laughter) Mr. Wadell: Oh, it's very good. Just a little. Prabhupāda: It is very good, tasteful. Mr. Wadell: Thank you. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) *Room Conversation with Indian Guests -*-July 11, 1973, London Guest (1): But if an animal kills, he gives for food. Guest (2): Another one, Guru Maharajaji, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over. Prabhupāda: Wherever. This is our advertisement. Guest (2): Advertisement... Prabhupāda: Demonstration of world religion. Guest (2): World religion. Prabhupāda: This is world religion. Guest (2): But what inside... (showing pamphlet or something) They say religion and moral education books, and all this... So actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. Our organization, not theirs, controlling the people. Prabhupāda: No, they are taking. Guest (2): Religious people are recognizing that this is very important. They say "the world religion," and this is the tool. They say, well, the tool. "Here is the new tool for religion education in the secondary schools." So they are recognizing this fact. Prabhupāda: Without canvassing, people join. Guest (2): This is the fact here, see. *Prabhupāda: And the world religion... The Ratha*-yātrā, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there? Guest (1): No, I was not. Prabhupāda: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasādam. And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that... Devotee: Several pictures... *Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha*-yātrā is rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. (Hindi) [break] Guest (1): I think the article they got in a straight weekly mag... (indistinct) envy our national character. You know, there's envy, a lot of envy. If you are successful, or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous. Prabhupāda: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you. Guest (1): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat*-praṇītam: [SB 6.3.19] "Religion is given by God." (Hindi) sarva-dharmān parityajya, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So this is religion. (Hindi) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. This is religion. That is first-class religion, which teaches bhakti. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja. Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to "kṣa", whatever experience we have got... Or akṣa means eyes, senses. So within sense perception, whatever is there... God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhokṣaja. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is first-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as kaitava. And Śrīdhara Svāmī gives his comments on this kaitava: chala-dharma. Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, mokṣa-vāñchāpi nirastam. That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called mokṣa. Dharma-artha-kāma-mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]. Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and then merge into the effulgence, mokṣa, liberation. So Śrīdhara Svāmī says, up to mokṣa-vāñchā is cheating, kaitava. Up to mokṣa-vāñchā. Mokṣa-vāñchāpy atra nirastam, kevala bhagavad-upāsanā. That is dharma. That is real dharma. Bhagavad-upāsanā. So we are teaching that religion, bhagavad-upāsanā. Simply. We have no such ambition, to be elevated to the heavenly planet or to merge into the Brahman effulgence. No. We can live anywhere, even in the hell. It doesn't matter. But our worship of Kṛṣṇa shall continue. This is our religion. So we are not ambitious to go to heaven or higher planetary system or higher standard of life. We have no such ambition. We simply want Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, that's all. Never mind where it is. This is real dharma. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. So this boy has become your celā (disciple). He's very nice boy. What is his name, Dhruvānanda? Or his father's name. What is your name? Dhruvānanda: Dhruvānanda. Devotee: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. Yes. Aiye. Aiye, bache, Aiye bache. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) You are coming from where? Guest (3): (Hindi) Guest (2): His, there's a place here, his. Prabhupāda: Oh. (Hindi) Guest (3): (Hindi conversation for some time with English words here and there.) Guest (3): (Hindi) And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, and I have come back. I think the life is more peaceful here than it is in India. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (3): It's more peaceful. Prabhupāda: Especially in Bengal, all, they have turned to be low... Guest (3): Due to poverty, Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Ne, culture... Guest (3): Culture nāsti. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Poverty's not question. Guest (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) They have no idea about Vedic... They are supposed to be preaching Vedānta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedānta. *Guest (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama*-tirtha... But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Rama*-tirtha also, he gave stress on oṁkāra. Is it not? Oṁkāra? *Guest (1): Hm. I think he is more on this karma*-yoga. He believes that you should. Or... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): Your karma is actually the other secret of success or something like that. *Guest (2): There are so many. I think it is in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that... *Guest (1): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): No, (Hindi). First I went there... Prabhupāda: So you have got your own house there, Dehra Dun? Guest (3): No, I tried to buy house, and I made deposit and everything. I wanted to buy the house. Then I came to England to raise the money. I raised the money and went back to India. And by the time I went back, there were four litigations going on on the house. Prabhupāda: Oh... (laughter) Guest (1): "I got this right on this house." Guest (3): There were four litigations going on on that house, and, you know, they all wanted the possession of the empty, vacant part of that house. I mean it was part possession property. They all wanted possession of the vacant part. Prabhupāda: Then what happened? Guest (3): So anyway, fortunately, the vendor also told me he doesn't want to sell. I said "Thanks to God." So he gave me the money back... Prabhupāda: So you returned. That's nice. Guest (3): ...and I got out of it. I was lucky, really, you know. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi) Guest (3): So I was very lucky, really. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi conversation for some time) [break] Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said, Guest (1): Dhruvānanda. Guests: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. And what is your father's name. Dhruvānanda: Devadatta. Guest (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: Devadatta. Guest (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: And your mother's name? Dhruvānanda: Draupadī. Guest (3): Draupadī. Prabhupāda: Yes. That DDD. All "D". (Hindi conversation for few sentences.) Guest (3): That was a determination to learn. One has got the... He has written his own (indistinct) confusion ... Guest (1): (indistinct) what was Droṇācārya. He has taken his thumb for nothing actually. Guest (3): No, that was his test. Guest (1): In order to please Arjuna. Guest (3): In order to please Arjuna. And that was his test. And that was his determination, that he rejected, and he learned the science, just, uh, faith. Prabhupāda: In material world such competition is there. Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual world. That is material. So Droṇācārya gave Arjuna the benediction that "You shall be the greatest archer." So in order to keep his promise, he made that... Guest (1): That wasn't, I think, what he did. (Paramahaṁsa or someone else enters.) Paramahaṁsa: Śyāmasundara, Śyāmasundara is not in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is that? Devotee: Oh, this is just a little preparation, burfi and a little kheer. Guest (3): Can't you bring him the plate like that? Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Devotee: I tried to find a plate. There's no... Should I leave it here? Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Guest (3): So so many stories he had memorized, and he started writing and asking many questions, Prabhupāda, so I'm not... But he has got the talent that if he'll get the right guidance and all this, he can easily translate *Mahābhārata*, many stories in the book shape, in different articles, which can very much help in our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): And for six weeks, seven weeks, his holidays he can remain. Prabhupāda: Yes, you remain here. Guest (3): Remain here. Then how he can develop it? So now you are quite free in next... All right? And he has memorized almost all your bhajana, everything. Prabhupāda: Very good. Guest (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least, he's on the right path. Prabhupāda: Everyone can be on the right path provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path. Guest (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the āśrama. Do you run sort of a school for them all? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them. Prabhupāda: Hm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care. Guest (1): How many children are here? Prabhupāda: You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there. Guest (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, why? There is... Go and sleep. Guest (1): Go and sleep? Prabhupāda: Yes, go and sleep. Take rest. Go on. Guest (3): You know, Prabhupāda, when you came to my house that evening... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guest (3): You had hari*-kīrtana at our house and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): We had a very funny incident after you left. After two or three days, my young daughter, you know... She's about two or two and a half at that time. She was sitting in one corner of the house, and she, you know, those cups like this you have to have, to keep under the furniture legs, you know, cup like this, she had two of them, and she was doing like that. And, uh... Prabhupāda: Karatālas. Guest (3): My daughter. I asked her, you know, "What are you doing?" She replied quietly, "I'm doing Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Just see. *Guest (3): So that really hit me hard, and I thought, "Look, one day's sat*-saṅga can have that effect on life, how much bigger effect it would have..." Prabhupāda: Intelligent, this is intelligent. Guest (3): "...if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say, "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really struck me. Prabhupāda: No, you can attend here. You remain here. *Guest (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat*-saṅga, first time in her life. Prabhupāda: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the... Therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction. Guest (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know. Prabhupāda: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children. They dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras. What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Bhakta Viśvareta. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Oh, he'll fall flat just like... And he will chant all these mantras. "Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale..." A small child at three years old. You see. Guest (1): I mean, advancement has very... Guest (3): Good association. Guest (1): ...effect, you know, on the mind. Prabhupāda: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh? Satsvarūpa: Just... It's not very difficult. It's just that we have... There is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his... So we're bringing children from other countries. Guest (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls? Satsvarūpa: No, boys and girls. Guest (3): And they are very well looked after there? Satsvarūpa: Up to fifteen, yes. Prabhupāda: Well, as far as possible. Guest (3): As far as possible. Do you have a prospectus or anything about that school? Satsvarūpa: Yes, I have literature. Guest (3): You have literature about that school? Prabhupāda: He's in charge. Guest (3): You are in charge of that school? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): I see. Can I ask... Prabhupāda: But tell... He has started. Guest (3): You have started that school? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda started it. (laughter) Guest (3): Yes. Could you sometime tell me about that school. Satsvarūpa: Sure, later we can talk. Prabhupāda: There are good teachers. We are teaching Sanskrit and English especially. Guest (3): They teach Sanskrit, English? Prabhupāda: That is what. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, ārati, worship of the Deity, and they play mṛdaṅga, they chant, they join Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. They are not meant for any technology. Guest (3): No. Prabhupāda: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brāhmaṇa. Not for become technologists. Technologists, there are many. Guest (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is the only business of human life. Guest (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. [break] ...I believe every [break] ...goes to this sort of school. Guest (3): There are so many. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Guest (1): I have not been there. I just heard about it. Prabhupāda: Actual spiritual life... [break] Guest (1): I was trying to read the (indistinct) philosophy. Too difficult for me... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): I found it too difficult for me to understand. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā? Guest (1): No, (indistinct) philosophy, (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, nobody can understand. Simply he can understand. Guest (1): So difficult. Prabhupāda: It is meant for him. *Guest (3): You read Guru Mahārāja's Bhagavad*-gītā, so simple. Even the child can understand who knows English. [break] Prabhupāda: ...trouble to the poor animals. Why the poor animals should be killed? They have got equal rights. But these rascals, they will not give equal rights. [break]... National means one who is born in that land. The animals are born in that land. Man is also born in that land. Trees are also born in that land. But they are not national. Only human beings national. Imperfect knowledge. Guest (4): In Luton, before eighty years... When I was reading the history of Luton, on the page number 176, it was written that there was a great shortage of food before eighty years, and in some place people were cutting their own children and eating. Prabhupāda: Huh?! *Guest (4): This is written. If you like that book, I can send you. So the non*-vegetarians... Prabhupāda: Cutting their children?! *Guest (4): Cutting their own children, killing them and eat them. In some private places in Luton, where I am residing now. The history of Luton has been published by the County Borough of Luton. The non*-vegetarian food leaved them to such an extent that they couldn't stay without the meat. And they had to cut their own children. Now we are vegetarian. I have never tasted any meat. I don't know the taste of it. Still. we all exist on vegetables, all sorts of vegetables. Prabhupāda: The same thing happened in Kanpur in a hotel. One man was eating meat, and he found a little finger... Guest (4): Finger of some... Guest (2): That was in the Bombay, in the Villa Parle, in my place, where I was living. Guest (4): Newspaper (Hindi) Guest (2): This gentleman went to the hotel and found a small finger. Prabhupāda: Small children cut up. And there was another case in Calcutta. The, one Chinaman, he was eating human being. And then... [break] ...some Kancawala (?) (beggar) him called, and then captured and killed him. This was going on. Later on, when police enquiry was made, so many human... Guest (2): Bones... Guest (4): Skeletons. Prabhupāda: ...bones, skeletons was found. In Africa there are still cannibals. Guest (4): Oh, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America as well. Prabhupāda: South America also? In India also. Guest (1): That, these... Prabhupāda: Yes. In Assam side. Guest (1): This Assam, some of the places. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They eat human beings. Nara*-buli (?), sacrifice human being, still there is a class of men. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America, they take a human being. From the head down, they eat. Then the head, they shrink it until it becomes very small, and this is a great prize. Guest (2): (Hindi) That was on the television, given all this, in South America, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Just like you, you keep the tiger's face after killing. Guest (2): (Hindi) Guest (5): Does this food make effect on a human nature? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guest (5): These non*-vegetarian foods and things like that. They definitely make effect on a human nature and behavior. *Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. George Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book: "You Are What You Eat." So eating has got effect. Sāttvikāhāra or... Unless one is in the sāttvika position, he cannot understand about self*-realization. It is not possible. Guest (5): The human beings get dreams, and what's the lesson between the dreams and the actual life. Suppose I have a dream at night... Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body. Guest (5): It has nothing to do with the human...? *Prabhupāda: No, dream... Just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara. They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara, but they do not have any education about this dehāntara. *Guest (5): (Sanskrit:) Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara*-gataṁ, paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā, yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam, tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye.(?) *Prabhupāda: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; *then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think: "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. So that is also described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. If you want to remain within this planetary system,... yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām. "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats and dogs category; *go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is... Here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says: janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: [Bg. 4.9] "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am..." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking...? Even if you take the body of demigod, like Brahmā, millions of years age..." That is stated in the Bhag ... ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. *Guest (5): Kṣīne puṇye martya*-lokaṁ viśanti [Bg. 9.21]. *Prabhupāda: Kṣīne puṇye punaḥ martya*-lokaṁ viśanti. So why should we waste our time. Even I become Brahmā, again we have to come. Guest (5): (Hindi) Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14], kṣurasya dhara niśita duratyayā. Prabhupāda: Duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. (Hindi) But if there is physician, it can be cured. So that is there said: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā. Very difficult. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So why don't you do that. *Guest (5): Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva*-bhāvena bhārata. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done? *Guest (5): Sva*-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. *Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva*-dharma. Sva-dharma, that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ. You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa. But he's not doing that. *Guest (5): So he's not performing his sva*-dharma. Prabhupāda: No! Guest (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him. *Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already... A brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa- like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma*-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma, including, that "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't... You cannot act as a brāhmaṇa, you cannot act as a kṣatriya, neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... This is the protection. Guest (5): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa. If he's acting in differently, he should be... [break] ...utilized by the liberated person, still we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine... The doors will be... Vinā paśughnāt [SB 10.1.4]. Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that "You should give up these four principles, illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulations, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt. It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Guest (1): And no price. Prabhupāda: And no price also. (Hindi) Eh? Guest (6): This morning we didn't want to disturb you to have a darśana. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You came in the morning? Guest (6): I came in the morning. Prabhupāda: You came in the morning, yes. You are for many years here in...? Guest (7): Yes, I have been in this country since about thirteen years. Prabhupāda: Thirteen years? Guest (7): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, long here. You are for fourteen years? Guest (8): In 1959. Yes, over fourteen years now. Guest (6): He has established very well in the insurance business. Guest (8): Which business? Guest (7): Insurance. Guest (6): He has got a loan insurance company. Guest (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means... (laughter) Guest (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business. *Prabhupāda: No, good, God is all*-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good. Guest (8): That is good. Guest (7): Any business based on ethic is good. *Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ [Bg. 18.46]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The Sūta Gosvāmī said*-all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya-so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ. You are all very first-class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān... [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate... But that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha. You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa. It doesn't matter. These divisions will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example. He was a kṣatriya. He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya, let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful. Guest (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war... Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Kṛṣṇa... Guest (8): Or somebody... Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna talked. Guest (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know...? Prabhupāda: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop. Guest (8): How does he know that he is pleasing God or he's not pleasing God? Prabhupāda: That, that... Therefore you have to know how to talk with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be possible. You cannot manufacture. And that is that you can talk with Kṛṣṇa by devotion. Guest (8): Because apparently, you know, to a layman, this killing wasn't an act which will please Kṛṣṇa, and that, what Arjuna did, kill such a big army and everything, it will... Normally you know, a layman would have thought it won't please Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, if you cannot meet Kṛṣṇa, you can meet with Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad*-gītā. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Paramparā. Kṛṣṇa says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Ikṣvāku. In this way..." Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. If you talk with the Kṛṣṇa's representative, then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Kṛṣṇa, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot..., but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. It is not difficult. The ācāryas are there. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyām. Kṛṣṇa says. "All the ācāryas," māṁ vijānīyām, "they are Myself." Nāvamanyeta karhicit, "Never disregard ācārya." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāṁ nāvaman..., na martya-buddhyāsūyeta "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa talked, he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme." So if anyone says, "Kṛṣṇa is supreme," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If somebody says that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. But if somebody says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. So Catur-bhuja, where he has gone? Guest (8): To bring some prasādam. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (Someone enters.) Guest (8): Now, while Bhīṣmadeva was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why he has taken the Kaurava side? Many people ask about... He knows Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: First of all give him. Yes. Guest (8): ...and still, he took the side of Kauravas in the fight, being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and he knew that Pāṇḍavas were right and Kauravas were not right. So many times this question has been very... Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be killed by the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Guest (8): By God. (background talking) Prabhupāda: Bring more. Guest (1): O.K. Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought... He expressed that "Duryodhana...," he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious. Because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with..." Because kṣatriya, this fighting is sporting. You see. That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles, that "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana... They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect... So when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed these moral principles. "So one is maintaining me and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well." Guest (8): Morally. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8): That's the question we were discussing. Yes. Prabhupāda: Is good? Guest (8): Oh very well. We discussed this point in *Bhāgavatam*, and these young boys, they tried to very closely to the point so that if I put the question before you... Prabhupāda: If somebody is maintaining you, and when he's in danger, you go to his enemy's side, that does not look nice. Yes. Otherwise, everyone was on Arjuna's side. Droṇācārya. But they considered like this, that "They have maintained us so long. And now there is fight, and we shall go to the enemy's side. What is this? What people will say? 'Treacherous.' " Guest (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away? Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" He left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be..." He divided... He, by tricks... His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers, that "Why shall I take this one man. I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said, "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said, "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." *Mahābhārata* is very nice. "Greater India." *Mahābhārata* means "The History of Greater India." *Mahābhārata*. Mahā means "greater." Guest (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and... *Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām [SB 1.4.25]. Mahābhārata was written by... This is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman, strī, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu. And they are compared with śūdras. So strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām. For these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu, Mahābhārata is Vedic literature. But for their understanding... They could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literatures. Guest (9): The Haryana government is constructing very gigantic, you know, temple over there at the birthplace of *Gītā*, at Kurukṣetra. I was there ten days before. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (9): I was there from ten days before at Kurukṣetra. Guest (8): Kurukṣetra. Guest (9): Kurukṣetra, yes. And they have decided now that about ten crores of rupees must be spent over there. Revatīnandana: The government of India is constructing a temple there? Is that what you said? Guest (9): Haryana government is particularly concerned about that, you see. Prabhupāda: Where? In Haryana? Guest (9): Kurukṣetra. Guest (8): Actually, that is not by the government. That is by Nanda. Guest (7): No, not...the newspaper. That minister. Prabhupāda: You, you can give. (about prasādam) Guest (7): Nanda. He is, he is the chairman of that. I heard that about him. Prabhupāda: You give, yes. You, whoever you have not given, you give. She does not know. Guest (8): To whom you have not given here? Prabhupāda: : Ācchā. Give, give others, visitors. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person? Prabhupāda: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender. Devotee: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do. He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully... He'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. They are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre..., in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā: their knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. Real thing they do not understand, nor, or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu [Bg. 16.19]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dviṣataḥ krūrān. They're envious, krūra. "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." They have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue, "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue. Guest (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: No ignorant. Purposefully. Guest (7): Purposeful, knowing that, knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it... *Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least... The every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. In Bhagavad*-gītā... Everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being..., that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But he is nityo nityānām. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas. And they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are, they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that "God is impersonal, and, everyone can become God, or everyone is God." This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there-offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions. They say that "You can create your God. You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me... He was supporting Rama-Krishna Mission. He said, "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God." Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda? (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God." They have accepted it. Just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it without any argument. Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said, Revatīnandana: Faith begins from the association of devotees? Prabhupāda: And that, that faith becomes stronger by association; by association of the devotees, the faith becomes stronger. And the more your faith becomes stronger, you make progress. This is the way. Progress means the same faith becoming stronger, stronger, strongest. The same faith. The principle is the same, Kṛṣṇa. Then you know more about Kṛṣṇa. Then you become more faithful. Revatīnandana: Is this faithfulness, is it a product of the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not... Unless you take it seriously... Then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness... That, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively. Revatīnandana: Sometimes the... Kṛṣṇa says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why... *Prabhupāda: No, I'm... That is generally. Unless one becomes in goodness... But bhakti*-mārga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaituki apratihatā. Ahaituki. Apratihatā. Nothing can check bhakti-mārga. Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaituki apratihatā. Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material... These goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions. Revatīnandana: Why is it then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it? Prabhupāda: That is his choice. Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition? Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept. Guest (10): So does faith develop from accepting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state. (pause) Get the lights on. Revatīnandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself; whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from, whether to accept or reject Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee. Guest (11): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): He's just asking for your blessings... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Your blessings, Swamiji, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems. Guest (11): Personal family problem. I am now (indistinct) Guest (2): I told him... Prabhupāda: (Hindi) chanting... Hare Kṛṣṇa nāma... Bhavauṣadhi... Bhavauṣadhi, medicine of all material diseases. This distressed condition of material world is a diseased condition, and this is the remedy. (Hindi for a few sentences) Guest (7): To eradicate disease, it needs counteraction. the... I... Prabhupāda: Eh? This is recited from the śāstra, bhavauṣadhi. This is the only disease, uh, only remedy. Guest (7): Remedy. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you haven't got to spend anything to purchase this medicine. Neither there is any loss. Why not try it for some time. Devotee: Because it's free, that's why they're hesitating. (laughter.) Guest (1): That's nice. Guest (11): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) I'm very glad to see you. Whenever few times... Guest (7): It's a pleasure, sir, to have your darśana. Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Guest (8): You can come in the morning. We have got... Guru Mahārāja speaks in the morning, Bhagavad*-gītā classes. Prabhupāda: Morning (Hindi) Guest (7): To chant Kṛṣṇa's name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to... Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulations, and other things. But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Droṇācārya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly you can practice: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Guest (3): Swamiji, tomorrow is Gaura*-pūrṇimā. And a friend of mine, his father, or his mother died on Ekādaśī day. Husband and wife were, they had been fasting Ekādaśī doing Satya-nārāyaṇa-kathā. So now father, he is very lonely, and he said, "I have got no guru." Then I told him about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation? Prabhupāda: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand... *Guest (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Gaura*-pūrṇimā. That's why I thought if tomorrow... Guest (8): If he deserves it. Prabhupāda: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see. Guest (3): Tomorrow morning? Ācchā. The beads, Swamiji. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office? Prabhupāda: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market. *Haṁsadūta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupāda just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat*-eating, meat, fish, eggs, and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. And anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as... Indian: As effective as it would be. Haṁsadūta: Exactly. Guest (4): So what you're saying is that there's no harm by his... *Prabhupāda: No, you can... That will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhā. According to śāstra, these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult. Guest (3): Swamiji? Tea and coffee's also included? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pāna. Chāi, pāna. Pāna, pāna means intoxication. Dhūmra*-pāna. *Guest (7): Dhūmra*-pāna. Guest (2): And what about supāri, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also ingredient of pāna. Pāna, it is called pāna. Guest (2): I offered Vaikuṇṭhajī supāri. You see he won't accept it. So I thought, well, it only helps digestion because it only brings the saliva in the mouth. Prabhupāda: Well, wine is also very digestive. (laughter) An appetizer also. All Europeans, they take first of all wine to eat voraciously. I see in the airplane. And after taking wine, they eat so much. Guest (8): And then they go for dancing to digest it. *Prabhupāda: Simple life, simple life, innocent life... Because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair... There is another verse quoted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana, those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead... Pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. On the other side of this material world. For him... Viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca, hā hanta hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu [Cc. Madhya 11.8]. For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicidal. So material things, viṣaya, simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is material activity. Guest (8): Defense? *Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means... Just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find, it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. "And always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 7.28]. "He becomes free from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed-up in My service." So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex... If you can, if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya, little tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya, austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student, that "You have to follow this." And that's all. Guest (4): (Hindi) Guest (1): In the evening tomorrow, Swamiji, have you got any special program or... Prabhupāda: No, anyone can come after four. Guest (5): Four to...? Prabhupāda: Four to six. Revatīnandana: I think tomorrow evening there'll be special, some special guests coming. Tomorrow evening. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Revatīnandana: Not tomorrow... Prabhupāda: No, you are also. You come. You are also. You come. Guest (5): Some people they work, you see, seven days of the week. Guest (8): Sunday night? Guest (5): No Sunday is tomorrow. So they wanted to come. Revatīnandana: Yeah, except tomorrow evening, I..., Śyāmasundara's arranging a very special conference. And I don't think... *Prabhupāda: That's (all) right. They also come and here what is... It is open to everyone. Our special conference: Bhagavad*-bhakti. Guests: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (5): Otherwise, you know, we are disallowed... Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): ...we have got your permission, then. Prabhupāda: They will also hear. Yes. (Hindi) Jaya. Guest (1): (Hindi for few sentences) Prabhupāda: Punjab? Guest (5): I'm a Hindu. Prabhupāda: You are Hindu, but which province. Guest (5): I come from Guyana and my father's from... Prabhupāda: Oh, Guyana. That South America. Guest (5): No. My father's from India. My mother's from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest (5): No, they come from Jullundar. Prabhupāda: Jullundar, Punjab. Guest (5): Yes. And... Prabhupāda: What you are doing here? Guest (5): Well I have come... I'm working at the moment. I'm working at the moment. Prabhupāda: Working? Guest (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: What work? Guest (5): Well I'm on the (indistinct) hotel. In the kitchen working, all the washing, and the supervising and things. You know, my father's seen you. He's come and seen you a bit. *Prabhupāda: Ma*-phal? Guest (5): My father. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest (5): He's come around, eh? I think he came in London, to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple in London. He came there. All (indistinct) This thing has really gone into my mind. And I don't drink, no meat, nothing, you know. Prabhupāda: You don't eat meat? Guest (5): Nothing. No drink, no... Prabhupāda: Ah, very good boy. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ready to sacrifice your hair? Guest (5): Well, I had it before. Guest (2): Not yet. (laughter) Guest (1): Is it compulsory to have a full consciousness that he must shave his head? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is formality. But he must be prepared to observe formality also. But if it is very much objectionable, sometimes we excuse. Guest (7): Now I have finished my one year, one year and one week, or something, for my practice, you know. So I'll be taking before and next year. Still, I... (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, you can come any time. Guest (7): Now it's 73 or 72 days so I'm counting the days. Prabhupāda: (Hindi for few sentences) Or debts. He thinks, "Oh, this is small debt." No, sometimes it becomes compound interest, big amount. So therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these three things must be finished by the root: agni and vyādhi and ṛṇa. We should not neglect. Guest (7): What is that? Agni...? Prabhupāda: Agni, vyādhi, disease. And ṛṇa, debts. You should not neglect it. You should finish it. Guest (8): Before it's increased more. Revatīnandana: Fire? Fire, disease and debts. Prabhupāda: Debts. One should not neglect. Guest (6): You don't drink tea, do you? No tea? Prabhupāda: No. Guest (8): No tea, coffee, no... Guest (7): I know. I stopped coffee because I don't have it often in my office staff. But tea, still, I'm thinking to leave the tea, you know. I see that Prabhupāda will ask me to give up everything, you know. (laughs) Revatīnandana: You'll have to replace it with something higher. When you want a cup of tea, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's how I stopped smoking cigarettes. Guest (7): Oh, my God. You can (indistinct) us (indistinct) stop smoking. Prabhupāda: No, no. (Hindi) "Where there is a will, there is a way." (Hindi) Guest (7): So when I shall take the whole promise? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (7): When I shall take the whole, the whole of what everything is to do this...? Prabhupāda: Yes, at any time, when you are ready. Guest (8): (Hindi) ...any time. Prabhupāda: (Hindi or Sanskrit) Guest (1): (Hindi for couple sentences) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ...polluted and we have to deal with them. Guest (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee... "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an ounce..." Prabhupāda: Now, when I was gṛhastha, so they offered tea, I said, "I don't take tea." Then they said "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water. That sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality. Guest (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know. Guest (8): Hospitality means prasādam. Prabhupāda: Hospitality means first of all, he should ask, "What can I offer you?" This is hospitality. Guest (8): Naturally, you know... Prabhupāda: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter) Guest (8): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no. Hospitality is first... According to our Indian system, (Hindi) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water." or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality. Guest (9): (Hindi) Somebody comes to my place... Prabhupāda: So you should ask, "What can I offer you?" Guest (9): ...say, "A cup of tea will do." Then? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Guest (9): We cannot give him cup of tea. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot give, that "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter) Guest (8): No tea, now. Why do you keep that tea in the house? Prabhupāda: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandeṣa or some sweetmeat or... What is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him... There are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered. Is it very nice preparation? Guest (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want... Prabhupāda: I want things are nice, but... Guest (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea. *Prabhupāda: They might have gone to hell, but I am not... (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat*-prasāda. We are offering our Bhagavat-prasādam. Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all. Guest (9): No, what I (indistinct) I take but wife takes half, and children, they didn't take it, but they want a cup of coffee. One boy wants cup of coffee, the girl wants a cup of tea and... Prabhupāda: Well, the... Guest (9): But the... And when the... That is the... This is the problem... Prabhupāda: This happened in my life... This happened in my life. Revatīnandana: Listen. Listen. Prabhupāda: My wife was taking tea. So I asked her not to take tea, not to take tea. But she didn't care husband. Then I gave her final, that "Either you have to give up your tea or your husband." (laughter) So she agreed to give up husband, not tea. (laughter) So I left my home. That's all. (laughter) Guest (8): Due to tea! Guest (9): There won't be any place for me to go now. Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is... Habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha. His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī. Guest (1): He is lucky. Prabhupāda: Yes, lucky. Guest (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there. Prabhupāda: He has good wife, good children, all favorable for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He does not... Guest (8): This is Prabhupāda's mercy really. Guest (1): No, but, that I'm saying... Guest (8): We have been living fourteen years in this country. They were brought up here, and they never touched tea. They were brought up here, school education and all that, fourteen years... Prabhupāda: Yes, in England, in London. Guest (8): And I must say they are advancing more than me, really. I am still the same stage; by Prabhupāda's grace, they are advancing more, get up early in the morning, four o'clock, take bath... Prabhupāda: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife... His wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Na gṛhaṁ gṛham ity āhur gṛhiṇī gṛham ucyate. Just like we are also living within a room, gṛha. But we are sannyāsī. What is the difference between gṛhastha and sannyāsī? He lives with his wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī means "the wife is gṛha." So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyāsī. No. Why? There is no necessity. Gṛhe vā vanete thāko. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, the life must be dedicated for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is required. And for Kṛṣṇa's sake, if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job? If Kṛṣṇa wants that "You give up this habit,"... Just like Kṛṣṇa says... If you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa... Now, Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So Kṛṣṇa wants that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, "Vegetable, milk, rice, grains, you can give Me." So you have to please Kṛṣṇa. You live on this, what Kṛṣṇa says, and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. That's all. (People coming in) Aiye. (Hindi) [break] *Prabhupāda: "...my dear boy, what best learning you have learned?" He was child, boy. So he said, tat sādhu manye 'sura*-varya dehināṁ sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. "My dear father..." He did not address father as "Father." He addressed him as asura-varya, "the best of the asuras." Guest (8): "Best of the asuras." *Prabhupāda: Yes, "best of the asuras." Asura*-varya. Varya means the best. And asura... Because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya..." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. "Anyone who has accepted this material body..." Dehinām, he has said. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animals, birds, beasts. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that, "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Why? Asad-grahāt. "Because they have accepted this material body." Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam, hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. "They should not be satisfied with the society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on and we are after that. But there, there is no possibility. Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, harim āśrayeta, there is no possibility. The whole world is trying to adjust things of the society, friendship, love and material atmosphere. That cannot be. That is not possible. Only by taking shelter... Therefore Kṛṣṇa says. Not whimsically. That is the only remedy: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the only remedy. There is no other remedy. But they'll not take. What can be done? This is the only remedy, harim āśrayeta. One should take shelter of Hari, Kṛṣṇa. Then he'll be happy. Otherwise it is not possible. Guest (6): Then we'll come in morning? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) (end) *Room Conversation With Three College Students -*-July 11, 1973, London Student (1): Is that what you're trying to do in your movement? *Prabhupāda: No, my movement... I am talking of yoga syst... What is my movement, that we shall discuss later on. First of all the question was the yoga. You asked me that. Yoga means to control the mind and the senses. So if one is not able to control the mind and senses, he does not know what is the meaning of yoga. That... You read Bhagavad*-gītā? Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Revatīnandana: Do you understand the necessity of controlling the mind and the senses? Can you see why it is necessary? Student (1): Yes. Sort of. Not to the full extent I don't see how it's necessary to a full extent, because I can't control the mind and senses. Prabhupāda: Hm. Call Pradyumna. Student (1): Because I can't completely control my mind and senses. Revatīnandana: The thing that is covered when we are always acting on the sensual platform, agitated in the mind, is we do not experience our self, our eternal self, which doesn't change. We become locked on the temporary platform. Student (1): In normal life, you mean? Most people, you're talking about. *Revatīnandana: Yes. Because all of our attention is lodged in the mind and the senses, and we are lost to ourselves, so any kind of self*-realization process means that you have to control the mind and senses or you cannot be self-situated. Beyond being situated in the self, there may be more, but that's the first point. That's the basic point of yoga. Student (2): Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into it? Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into the yoga? *Revatīnandana: He wants to know... If being self*-situated is one thing, then where does Kṛṣṇa enter into the system? That's his question. *Prabhupāda: Self*-situated. When you are self-situated... Just like in the water you are taking bath in a pool. Something has fallen on the water. Suppose your key has fallen. Now you'll have to find out. You are just trying to settle up the water and see where is the key. So when your mind and senses are controlled, then you can talk of Kṛṣṇa. Before that you cannot talk. Because Kṛṣṇa is missing, with uncontrolled mind, senses, you cannot capture Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. The same example. When the water is agitated, you cannot see where your things have fallen. You have to wait to make the water calm and quiet. Then you'll see, "Here is my key." Student (2): What are the ways in which... How can we get to Kṛṣṇa? How do you get to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You come here. Take this. Sixth chapter, the practice of yoga. The process. Pradyumna: Should I read from the beginning? Prabhupāda: Hmm. You read. Read. Pradyumna: "To practice yoga..." Prabhupāda: Now, first of all you have to find out secluded place. Yoga practice is not possible in a hotel or in a public place. It is not possible. You have to find out a secluded place. First condition. Then? Pradyumna: "...and should lay kuśa grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth." Prabhupāda: Then there is process of making the āsana, deerskin, kuśāsana, then cloth. You have to sit down in that āsana. Āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇ... Then? Pradyumna: "The seat should neither be too high nor too low." Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there. "It should not be too high nor too low." Then? Pradyumna: "And should be situated in a sacred place." Prabhupāda: A sacred place. Just like formerly those who were practicing yoga, they were going to Gaṅgotri where the Ganges is coming down, in the Himalaya, in the Haridwar, in a secluded, sacred place. These are the condition, first condition. So where you are getting these conditions fulfilled? You cannot practice yoga in a hotel or in a club. That is not possible. Student (2): How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? Prabhupāda: Sacred place, generally we take as a lonely place, solitary place. If it is not solitary, it is not sacred. Student (2): Is sacred the same as solitary? Prabhupāda: Yes, they used to sit down in the Himalaya where the Ganges is coming. That is a sacred place. If you go simply on the Ganges side on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, you will find immediately purified your mind, immediately. Or on a seaside where there is nobody disturbing. These are sacred places. Then? Pradyumna: "The yogi should then sit on it very firmly." Prabhupāda: Then yogi has to sit down very firmly like this. Yes, straight, perpendicularly. Then? Pradyumna: "And should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses." Prabhupāda: Then he has to practice meditation for controlling the mind and the senses. First of all āsana place, sacred place, now, āsana, secluded place, alone. That is stated. These are the yogic process. Student (3): What do you mean by control your mind, I mean, control your senses? If your senses are controlled, can you see anything you wish or hear anything you wish? Or taste anything you wish? Prabhupāda: Just explain what is control, mind and senses. *Revatīnandana: Well, controlling, being in control of your mind and senses, means that whatever destination you fix up with your intelligence*-you understand, you want a particular result-then if you are in control of your mind and senses, then it means that it won't disturb you. Prabhupāda: First of all... First of all thing is the, what is the aim of practicing yoga? So to achieve that end, that purpose, you have to control the mind because mind is very flickering, going here, there, there, there. So first of all you must know what is the purpose of practicing yoga, why you should practice yoga. So in order to achieve that goal, you have to concentrate your mind, and therefore you have to control the mind going here and there. That is control. Mind business is acceptance and rejecting. This is mind's business. Immediately I accept, "It is very good;" again, next moment, "No, no it is not good. Reject it." This is called flickering mind. So by yoga practice you have to make your mind in such a way that whatever you decide, that is correct, not the state of rejecting and accepting. So first of all, you have to know why you are practicing yoga. As you asked the question, "Why control of mind?" Then the next question will be "Why you are practicing? What is your aim?" You are going to practice yoga. Why? What is the aim? Student (1): Is it to realize God? Prabhupāda: That's nice. Therefore you must have to concentrate upon God; therefore you have to control your mind. You have to withdraw your mind from any other engagement, only concentrate on God. Then the... What is God? Student (1): That's what I'm trying to find out. Prabhupāda: No, if you want to concentrate, find out God... Do you mean to say simply by practicing, you'll find out? You must know what is God. Then suppose you are purchasing some ticket. You do not where to go. You do not know. You say, "I'll have to find out where to go." What is this? Then why you are purchasing ticket? Student (1): Yeah. How can you focus your mind on God before you know what He is? Prabhupāda: Yes. So then what is God? Student (1): That's what I came to ask you. Prabhupāda: Then? Revatīnandana: He wants to know. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa. So if you concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is yoga. That is first*-class yoga. That is stated. You... List the last... Student (1): Why Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only on Kṛṣṇa. That is... Yogīnām api sarveśām [Bg. 6.47]. You read the translation. Pradyumna: "And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the highest yoga. So to concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is highest perfection of yoga. Student (1): Yeah, but I want to know why Kṛṣṇa in particular. *Prabhupāda: Then if there is question of "Why?" then you do not come to us. You can ask somebody else. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the yogis, all the saintly persons, therefore... There is no question of "Why?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is the decision of the Vedic literature. All the ācāryas. We have to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ, big personalities. Now in India, the big personalities in the modern age, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya, all of them accept kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Formerly, five thousand years ago, Vyāsadeva, before that, Nārada*-everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no question about Kṛṣṇa's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Why? Because these people accept, the śāstra says, the Vedas says, therefore He is the Supreme Personality. Student (1): I don't follow at all... Prabhupāda: Then you'll never be able to follow. Revatīnandana: Now, just see, the revealed scriptures... Prabhupāda: No, no revealed scripture... Just like why do you accept the queen as the supreme? Why? Students: We don't. Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane. Student (1): . Yeah, but why, there's a thousand... Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are... By law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else. Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything... "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done? Student (3): We can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, that... That is... You have to see through the śāstra. śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra, authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly seeing. You cannot say that. Student (1): Do you believe that there are other ways... Prabhupāda: There is no question of belief. Now let us quest... We believe that "If I see, that is all right," but what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see beyond this wall. Does it mean there is nothing? So what is the value of your seeing? First of all you consider. You are questioning that "I cannot see," but what is the value of your seeing? Student (3): My seeing the electric lamp tells me that it is... Prabhupāda: Now, now, now, but you are seeing the electric lamp, but why do you believe so much on your seeing power? You cannot see so many things, even though you have got the eyes. Student (3): I have no reason not to believe. Prabhupāda: No, that is not good. If you say, "I cannot see beyond this wall. There is nothing," nobody will take your words. Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall. Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that. Student (2): We don't deny that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know... Prabhupāda: You have to know by the process, by the process. You have to know by the process. Just like can you see your father? Student (2): Can I see him? Prabhupāda: Eh. You cannot see? Can you see? Student (2): Well, I can see him. Prabhupāda: So how you can see? Who is your father, how you can see? Why? Why you accept somebody as your father? Why? Student (2): Because my mother told me. Prabhupāda: Huh, that's right. (laughter) But you do not see. You do not see. So you have to believe the authority. Then you can see. Your father existed before your birth. So you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says, "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy. Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father. Prabhupāda: You find out this verse Revatīnandana: Then its different, you see. That's why not Guru Maharajaji. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam [Bg. 10.12], in the Tenth Chapter. Pradyumna: 10.10? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority. Pradyumna: "...and Vyāsa proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]? Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava Pradyumna: ...yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately he understands Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye: [Bg. 10.14] "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And You are accepted by Devala, Nārada, Vyāsa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the ācāryas have accepted. Then I'll follow: mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. I'll have to follow great personalities. The same reason mother says, this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished. Why should you waste your time? Student (1): Say we say that Kṛṣṇa is God. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): Then do you believe that there are other ways, apart from the way that you're going, to get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yoga means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Yeah, right, but I mean practically... Prabhupāda: So when you understand Kṛṣṇa, then there is no need of yoga. Student (1): I don't think you could ever understand God. Prabhupāda: No, if you go to the place... Just like if you go to the airport, then you can understand which airship is starting from which gate, which gate. There are so many things you can see. But if you do not approach the airport, simply in other place, how you can study airport? First of all come to Kṛṣṇa. Then try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And if you understand Kṛṣṇa you become liberated. First of all we have to know that "Here is *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." Then you try to understand. But if you do not approach there, where is your question of understanding Him? Student (1): Yeah, but somebody else will say, "You come to us, and I'll do this to you, and you'll see God." Prabhupāda: We do... We are not concerned with "some." We are concerned with the authorities, that's all. Somebody says, "He is not your father." We are not concerned. My mother says, "He is father." That's all. Student (1): Yeah, but if my mother tells me, I only believe it... Prabhupāda: Then you are unfortunate. If your mother tells you lies, then you are unfortunate. *Student (1): Yeah, but I only believe her because I give her the authority. You make Bhagavad*-gītā your... Prabhupāda: But generally we have to believe. Generally we have to believe mother; there is no other way. To understand the father, generally you have to accept the statement of mother. If your mother tells you lies, that is misfortune. Student (1): Yeah, but you're not giving us any sort of answer. You're just sort of saying, "Believe in us, assume that you believe in us." So why don't you give us an answer? Prabhupāda: No, believe... You have to believe. You have to believe. Otherwise you cannot make progress. You have to believe. Student (1): But say you're in a position of not particularly believing in anybody. I mean there's loads of organizations going around, "Believe in us..." Prabhupāda: No, if you don't believe, that is a different thing Revatīnandana: No, what he's saying is this. Now he's saying also, this Guru Maharajaji, he says, "You believe in me, and I'll show you everything." Now he's saying that... What he's accusing is... Prabhupāda: But who cares for the Guru Mahārāja? Revatīnandana: He cares. Prabhupāda: Here is Nārada, Devala, Vyāsa, authority. Student (3): No, we're not saying we do, but some people do, anyway. Student (1): Yeah, they'll argue just as convincingly as you. Prabhupāda: But everyone can say, "I am God." Then how you'll understand? If Guru Mahārāja says, I can say also. He can say. Then go on studying who is God. The same question: Everyone says, "I am your father," "I am your father," "I am your father," but whom you have to believe? You have to believe only mother. Student (1): Okay, well who's the mother in this case? Revatīnandana: The śāstra, revealed scriptures. They give information about the father. *Prabhupāda: śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Student (1): What about the Bible? That'll tell me something else, altogether. Revatīnandana: No, it won't. It will tell you almost identical information. If you go in the Bible, it will say, "God is your father." Father means he is sufficient to beget a son. Now, if God is a void, how can a son come out from a void? But if God is a person, then he can have son. Prabhupāda: We have no such experience. *Revatīnandana: Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the father of every living being." Therefore Bible and Bhagavad*-gītā, they are saying the same thing, but not that "God is void or light," not saying that. Somebody else is saying that. Therefore we are very, very skeptical now. He has not got the authority of these scriptures. If he says, "Your father is a void," that is nonsense. *Prabhupāda: And where is our experience*-from void a son is born? Where is your experience? Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void? Student (1): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to... Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities. Student (1): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't, no, right. I mean this isn't logical, is it? Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority. Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself. Student (3): Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct. Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic. Student (3): Because so many people say different things which conflict. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are taking the shelter of logic. You are taking the shelter. Student (1): Logic... Logic is arguing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, logic means argument, reasoning. Our logic is because Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all great persons, authorities, we accept. Our logic is simple. Student (1): But Christians might say the same thing. They might say, "Look at the Bible, This is our logic." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. They accept God; we accept God. The only difference is they do not know who is God, but we know who is God. Student (1): No, they know who is God. Prabhupāda: No. *Revatīnandana: You won't get any good information about God. "God is great. God created"*-finished. That's not very much information. God's son? A little more information about God's son. Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have. Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see. Student: In which way? *Revatīnandana: In these Vedas. There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the Vedas give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle-"God is there. God is a person"*-is in both places. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son. Student (1): God exists now. Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists. Student (1): But therefore where is He? Prabhupāda: Why is He? Revatīnandana: Where is He? Prabhupāda: Where is He? He is with you. He is here. But you have no eyes to see, that's all. Revatīnandana: He says, "I'm sitting in everyone's heart, and from Me comes knowledge, remembrance and forgetfulness." If you turn toward Him, He will give you knowledge, and you'll be able to see Him. But you have to find out who to turn toward. Then you can turn. So from saintly authorities, the line of masters and the *Vedas*, we find out where to turn. And if you turn properly, then by Kṛṣṇa's grace, you'll see Kṛṣṇa. He'll reveal Himself in the course of time. Student (2): Have you all seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He asked if we have all seen Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: We are daily, every moment, seeing, every moment. Otherwise, do you mean to say we are blindly following something? Student (2): No, I'm not saying that. I'm just asking if someone comes along and joins you, do they see Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, why don't you see Kṛṣṇa? There is picture of Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see, driving horse? Here is Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see? If you see the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? Student (2): No. Prabhupāda: No, then what can I talk with you? Student (2): All I was saying was is it, when someone comes... Prabhupāda: Your the photograph of your, seeing the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? That's your argument? Student (1): No, it's seeing a photograph of your father. Prabhupāda: False? Revatīnandana: It's seeing a photograph of your father. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, but God is Absolute. God and God's photograph, there is no difference. God and God's name, there is no difference. Therefore God is Absolute. He is not relative. You can say, "The photograph is not my father," that because it is relative. But God is Absolute. God's name, God's form, God's pastimes*-everything is God. That you have to understand, Absolute nature. Otherwise are these boys and so many thousands and thousands of devotees... They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa, this name, is different from Kṛṣṇa, are they foolishly simply chanting Kṛṣṇa? Student (2): I don't know but... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's photograph is the same. That you have to understand. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. Student (3): Do you mean Kṛṣṇa is Absolute, and Kṛṣṇa is everything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (3): Then why does Kṛṣṇa have a specific form? Prabhupāda: And why not? Kṛṣṇa is everything. Suppose I if I say, "I am everything in this, my institution," does it mean I have lost my personality? No, no, if I say, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... If somebody says that "Bhaktivedānta Swami is everything," does it mean I have lost my personality? That is material understanding. Kṛṣṇa keeps His personality; still, He is everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. In the government there are so many cabinet ministers, offices, etc. And in every cabinet minister and in every office the will of the Prime Minister is going on. Therefore in one sense the Prime Minister is everything. Still, the Prime Minister is a person who is in control of all those cabinet officers and offices. And you won't find the Prime Minister in each office, but he's there, because of his influence. In the same way you are in Kṛṣṇa's energies, and He is everywhere through His energies, but He remains the person in control. The same thing. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting, there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example. Because the Prime Minister's energy is working in that office, so the Prime Minister is there present. So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun. Sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient, now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire. So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4], earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies, so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh it is hot, oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult. Student (3): . To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, one needs faith that Kṛṣṇa exists, and... Prabhupāda: Not only "Kṛṣṇa exists," "What is my relationship with Kṛṣṇa? What is my duty in that relationship?" everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. Who can produce this? Who can produce something like this? Supposing you take your best chemists and engineers, Student (3): Well, you must call it God, mustn't you. Revatīnandana: And you see who can produce, right? They cannot produce anything with this texture, this nice smell, you see? Prabhupāda: He knows it. Student (3): It doesn't smell. Revatīnandana: So many persons can make an artificial flower that's not as nice as that one, but they cannot reproduce that. And then we say that Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, who is full of knowledge, full of beauty, full of power. With full knowledge, beauty and power... Prabhupāda: Because He has got full knowledge, He knows how to... Now, this flower has come from earth, and other flower has come also from the earth. But the fragrance is within the earth. But you cannot take the fragrance from the earth. You do not know. But Kṛṣṇa is taking. Just see. Therefore His knowledge is perfect. Omnipotent, omniscient. He knows how to take. He knows the process. So many flowers are coming. Revatīnandana: Then, when you can see a flower in this consciousness, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Through that flower Kṛṣṇa is smiling at you. He is offering, He is smiling at you through that flower, and He is there, smiling. Student (3): I can see God, smiling at me from the flower. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. Student (3): I see no relationship... Prabhupāda: So but you do not know who is God. That is the difference. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's saying, "I am the cause of everything. From Me the whole creation flows." He is the person who has designed the flower that you cannot design. And if you want to see Him directly, if you want to associate with Him personally, He says, "Only by pure love and devotion can I be seen." Therefore our yoga is to love Kṛṣṇa. And then you can see everything when you see Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): But this is your yoga, right? Revatīnandana: It's Kṛṣṇa's yoga. *Prabhupāda: Yoga means connection. As soon as you study Kṛṣṇa in this way, you make your connection with Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga. Yoga means connection, the Sanskrit word yoga. And the opposite word is viyoga, disconnection. Yoga*-viyoga. So yoga means, real yoga means, to connect your relationship, your identity, with Kṛṣṇa. That is called yoga. So take little prasādam. Come on. Revatīnandana: Take some little sweet. Student (2): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Come on. Student (2): I can't. Prabhupāda: No, no, I will give you. So let us stop here. Next I can give some talk. Revatīnandana: All glories to Prabhupāda. (Obeisances) So Prabhupāda will take some rest now. Student (3): Thanks very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. So bring little milk. Yes. (end) Room Conversation with Guest -- July 11, 1973, London Prabhupāda: So I do not know why these people protest against me. Kṛṣṇa says, Śukadeva Gosvāmī says, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. I do not know what Śaṅkarācārya says, but... *Guest: When, when advaita*-darśana was the main doctrine of ādi-śaṅkarācārya. So there should not be any dvaita between brāhmaṇa and śūdra. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is, from argument, it is all right. Yes. Why one should see Brahman and not*-Brahman? Yes. Guest: There is only one God. Prabhupāda: There is only one God. Guest: Eko brahma dvitīyo nāsti. Prabhupāda: Nāsti. So... Guest: Only one God dwells everywhere. *Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says that sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambha...ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. He's the original seed-giving father of all living entities, in any form. So not only human beings, but also animals, birds, beasts. Kṛṣṇa is the original father. Jīvera... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. And Kṛṣṇa also: mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. *Guest: Jīva*-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Prabhupāda: So why other jīvas should be left aside? Why they should not understand Kṛṣṇa. And actually, they are understanding Kṛṣṇa better than many Indians. They have taken very seriously. They do not put any competitor of Kṛṣṇa. Our Hindus, they put forward so many competitors of Kṛṣṇa: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be God? I have got my own God." Especially after the preaching of this Vivekananda, that "You can create your own God," it has become very simple business to create one God. Guest: Well, then, that time, when Swami Vivekananda went to America, the country was not independent, not liberated. So at that time... Prabhupāda: Who? Guest: Swami Vivekananda, at that time... Prabhupāda: No, who was not liberated? Guest: This country of India. India was not liberated. So... Prabhupāda: So what was the connection with liberation? Guest: Ne. Because at that time there's some proud of nation and some proud of culture. He wanted to... Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule. Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta. Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested... *Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā*-kumārī and prayed before Mother. Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all. Guest: It is a great service to Hindu dharma and Hindu society and humanity as well. Prabhupāda: They are strictly following Vaiṣṇava principles. They... Whenever one comes to become my disciple, the first condition is that no illicit sex; *no meat*-eating, eggs, fish, nothing of the sort; no intoxication up to smoking cigarette, drinking tea and coffee; *and no gambling. So they strictly follow these things. In our society, there is no tea*-drinking even. We don't drink tea. So... Intoxication, pāna, chāi pāna, pāna... Pāna is intoxication. Guest: Tāmbūla... *Prabhupāda: Tāmbūla. Yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhā. Guest: (Sanskrit or Hindi: Kṛṣṇa is offered tāmbūla in the temple.) Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa can take. Guest: Yes. And that prasāda of Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: ...the devotees can take also... Prabhupāda: No, prasādam, according to our principle... Just like on Ekādaśī day, we do not accept even prasādam. Anna. We keep it. So prasādam... Just like on Ekādaśī anna is prohibited, but not the Deity. Deity's offered anna, but we cannot take the prasādam even. So following strictly the principle, even tāmbūla is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is not for us. Yes. Strictly following the principle. The same example... Just like on Ekādaśī day, anna is offered to Kṛṣṇa, but we don't take. Guest: The devotees are not allowed. Prabhupāda: Not allowed, yes. Guest: Ācchā. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Guest: I'm very grateful to have your darśana. Oṁ namo nārāyaṇāya. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *Room Conversation with Educationists -*-July 11, 1973, London Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books? Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We don't have room to keep all. Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have also known? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: No? Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still don't know really anything. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say, in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him. "Get up, get up! You have got this engagement. You have..." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them: "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta*-varān nibodhata. "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. And if he sleeps, then he loses his business. This is our mission, to awaken him. And when a man sleeps, how he can awaken him? Simply by vibration of sound. The sleeping man can be awakened simply by this process, allowing the sound to enter the ear. By no other process. He's sleeping. If you show him a stick, "If you don't get up, I shall strike you," that will not be effective. Because sleeping. If you say... So many things... There are other senses. There will be no action. But only through the ear, if you cry, "Please get up! Please get up! Now your time," that will act. So our process is that, to force him to hear. Then he'll be awakened, by hearing. Therefore Vedic literature is called śruti. Śruti means it has to be received by hearing. You may be uneducated. It doesn't matter. If you simply hear from the right source, you get right knowledge. There is no need of education. Simply by hearing. Guest (1): You teach your children, don't you? Prabhupāda: Yes, all my disciples, they're taught. Guest (1): No, I didn't mean disciples. I meant children, little ones. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. We have got children's school also. Guest (1): They understand, do they not? *Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Because hearing is there. Everyone, even a child, after hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he claps, he dances, he joins. That is practical. We have seen. Small child, say, four, five months old, on the lap of the mother, he's also moving, clapping. So this, this is also yoga system, bhakti*-yoga. So it is so practical that even a small child can take part in it, without any advanced knowledge. Universal. Universal. Even dogs sometimes, they take part. We have got practical experience. They don't like to leave us. Yes, I have seen. Devotee: I have too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They like this chanting and dancing. So we are, our business is to awake the sleeping man. Sleeping man means when you sleep you have no knowledge. If somebody kills you, you cannot protect yourself. Sleeping, that is sleeping stage, that we do not know what is happening. That is called sleeping stage. Even if you are so*-called awakened, if you do not know the value of life, that is sleeping stage. That is sleeping stage. So in that sleeping stage, we are trying to awake the human society. A man, a human being, may be materially very qualified, but he does not know what is the value of human life, he's sleeping. He's sleeping. Can you distinguish...? You are all educationists. What is the difference between a human being and an animal? Guest (1): Higher intelligence? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Higher intelligence, I think. Prabhupāda: What is that higher intelligence? Guest (1): Speech and ability to compute what you hear. Prabhupāda: Oh, that, dog can also do. If you train dog that "If somebody, outsider comes, you bark," he'll do it. Guest (2): The consciousness is... *Prabhupāda: And so... Real intelligence is that to know "what I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake... So many things. So nobody wants to die. But death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made. What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there. Three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease. Diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering. Due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind... Body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pains. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects. They give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's... All of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like, all, in India there is drought. They are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, sufferings going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse. He cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division*-brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas. Next, the vaiśyas. And the śūdras, they are like, almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog, without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go. "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancies." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food." Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut!" This is the position. Therefore in this age kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya. There are some vaiśyas. And all śūdras. Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big... What is that? Śūdras. They are creating śūdras. "People should be dependent." Unless you work... Therefore people are going fifty miles away, going... I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side... What is that? Haṁsadūta: Connecticut Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island? Haṁsadūta: Staten Island. Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed: the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra, just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Guest (1): I couldn't follow you. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): I haven't followed you. Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not, no intelligence? Guest (1): I think you're right. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter) Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts must be really not worth very much. Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Guest (1): How can we in a money*-orientated world? Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent? *Guest (1): In a money*-orientated world? Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence. Guest (1): No, I know. Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent. Guest (1): No, I understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money, if you become independent, that is intelligence. Śrutakīrti: That was her question. Prabhupāda: Ah. That, if you can get Kṛṣṇa, you'll... Guest (1): But how do you, what I mean is how do you, how can you... *Prabhupāda: That "how to," that we shall teach, as we are teaching others. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated, Devotee: I'll get him. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Should I put on the light, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sit down. (pause) He gets such thing, when he gets it, he'll consider that he doesn't want anything more. That is the greatest profit. And the result is that when one gets that thing, even he is in the greatest difficulty of life, he's not disturbed. Pradyumna: Yaṁ nam? Prabhupāda: Labdhvā. Pradyumna: Oh, cāparaṁ lābham? Prabhupāda: Ah. *Pradyumna: Six*-twenty-two. Prabhupāda: If you have got any question in this statement, you can ask. Guest (1): Just, just how...? Prabhupāda: How, that you have to learn, but this is the process. Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Hm. You learn... We have got this institution. You can come and learn how others are doing, others are learning. We have got class in the morning at seven. If you've got time, you can, you are welcome. We don't charge anything. You can come and join. There is no business. You can live with us. We don't charge anything. Or you can come and go, attend class. There is no charge. Kṛṣṇa gives us everything. Just like this house. This is two hundred thousand pounds. George Harrison has purchased it, and he has given us. Similarly, everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. None of our members go to office or factory. But we eat also, nicely. Guest (2): Yes, but if somebody didn't go to the factory, you wouldn't, would you? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Somebody has to go and do the work to make the food, keep the country running. Prabhupāda: No. We don't hate to work. That is not our business. If we get work, we work for Kṛṣṇa. The income comes to Kṛṣṇa. But if we don't get work, we are not bothered, that "There is no work. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? Where shall I go?" No, there is no such botheration. So all the members, I think, eighty, ninety percent, they do not go to work outside. *Haṁsadūta: Ninety*-nine. Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) But they get their food and shelter and everything. Even they live with a wife, children. So we,... Kṛṣṇa gives. Not only that we are simply sannyāsī, brahmacārī. There are gṛhasthas, householders, husband, wife, children. They are also living. So that is not our problem. How to eat, how to sleep, that is not our problem. Our only problem is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is... Guest (1): Yes. That was the question that was puzzling me. What is...? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. Not in a moment you can understand. Then you have to come to the schooling process. Otherwise how you can learn? In a moment? Such a big subject matter? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: We are going to solve all the problems of life. Such a nice proposal. Don't you think it requires little patience to understand how to do it? Guest (1): It requires a little bravery. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): It requires bravery too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got background, Kṛṣṇa, so bravery, personally we haven't got to practice. Just like a child is in the protection of an able father. He's happy. "Whatever happens, father will see." He's happy. He's confident. "My father is there; my mother is there. Who can do any harm to me?" He's confident. Guest (1): There is so much that's wrong. *Prabhupāda: So similarly, if you depend on Kṛṣṇa, God, He'll take care of you. He says in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. So whenever you find time, you can come, or, if you like, you can live with us. We have got ample place. Girls and ladies, they live separately. Boys and gentlemen, they live separately. Those who are married, we have got apartments for householders. And gradually, we are improving, I mean to say, arranging further facilities. First of all you try to attend our class in the morning and inquire all about your doubts. Have some clear idea what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Read our literatures as far as possible. You have taken some book, I see, I saw. And if you agree to this principle, we take charge of you. You haven't got any botheration, how you'll get prasāda. We shall arrange for that... Guest (3) (young British woman): Religion, meaning trying to serve God, is any more right than another? Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is the only business. Religion is different thing. Suppose... Just like... I have already explained, that you are sleeping, and you have got a good engagement. And somebody's trying to awake you, that "You have to go there. Just get up! Get up!" So this kind of business is not religion. Religion is a, what is a kind of faith, a sentiment. That is different thing. It is the main business of human being. Because we are part and parcel of... Just like a boy, he's very rich man's son. Some way or other, he's out of his home, and he's suffering for want of food, want of shelter. And somebody's giving information that "I know you are such and such big man's son. Why you are loitering in the street? Why don't you go back to your home, back to your father?" So is it not the best business. So everyone is suffering. That I have already explained, how they are suffering. We are trying to save his suffering by dispatching him back to home, back to Godhead. This is our business. So it is not religion. It is the most important humanitarian work. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are giving the right information, how human being can be really happy. This is end. It is not a religious sentiment. Religion means kind of faith. Today I am Hindu; tomorrow I am Christian; *next day I am Mohammedan. What benefit I may get by changing so*-called faith? Unless I understand what is my constitutional position, why I am suffering, how to get out of it? That is real life. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. It is not a sentimental religious faith. It is not like that. It is absolutely necessary for the human being. We are talking of human being because without being a human being, nobody will be able... The cats and dogs, they will not be able to understand the problem. In the human form of life, you can make solution of all the problems of life. It is a science, how to make that solution. That we are teaching. We are not talking of religion. Religion... Somebody will say, "I believe," "We believe..." Another will, "We believe..." You believe, if it is not a fact, what is the use of such believing? We are dealing with facts, not the question of believing and not believing. Facts are facts. If you don't take facts, then you are missing the opportunity. (pause) You have got some visitors' book? To...? Haṁsadūta: Visitors' book, to sign? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Somebody told me they have got. You have seen all our books? You have seen? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Guest (2): Some of the little... (pause) (end) *Room Conversation with Indian Guests and Devotees -*-July 11, 1973, London Prabhupāda: ...accepted in that group. Guest (1): Suppose if somebody is absolutely ignorant about... *Prabhupāda: So therefore there should be education. Why the śāstras are there? Why guru is there? Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You must accept guru and learn. Why should you remain ignorant? Guest (1): How one should start when he's completely ignorant of all these things? *Prabhupāda: He should go... Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. Guest (1): Tad viddhi praṇipātena... [Bg. 4.34]. Prabhupāda: Paripraśnena sevayā. He should become a disciple of a bona fide guru. Otherwise how he can learn. If you are uneducated, you should go to school. Guest (1): You want to ask anything? (pause) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is very difficult to, to guru, but when guru comes, they also do not accept him. What can be done? They are so fallen. Only fortunate. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. So to go to guru, to Kṛṣṇa, that requires fortune. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Some fortunate person. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. By the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa, he gets the seed of this bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. And when he's a bhakta, then he can understand what is God. (To disciple:) Get the light. Bhaktyā mām abhijānā... No, there. That's all right. Guest (2): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) [break] (Hindi for some time) [break] When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa-departmental*-and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know. They simply think that dog lies down on the floor, on the road... "We have got nice, best apartment. Therefore we are civilized." So that is their defect. They are trying to improve the condition of sleeping, eating. That's all. That is advancement of civilization. But that is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization means to understand Viṣṇu, how to please Him, how to go back to Him, go to the spiritual world. This is advancement of civilization. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. They do not know all these things. Therefore they have been described as śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. All these men are exactly like dogs, hogs, camel and asses. So by their vote, by the votes of dogs, hogs, camel and asses, another big ass, big dog, will be on the government. So what does he know, how to govern? Do you think if you make a dog king, it will be good government. Or a camel king, it will be good government? So it is happening so. The dogs, hogs, camels and asses, they are voting. Another big camel, another big dog is on the governmental head. How can you expect good government? After all, he's a dog, hog and camel. How can you expect good government from him? Instead of a petty dog, if you enthrone a very big dog... What is the big dog? Does it mean the condition will improve? That is the position now. Just like what is this Nixon? He's a big dog. That's all. And therefore now people are accusing him. What is the condition now? Satsvarūpa: It's just dragging, dragging on. Now he's become sick. He's ill. He's in the hospital. Prabhupāda: He must be. So many attacks. How he can tolerate. He's in the post. This is happening. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: This idea of democracy came at a time in French history called the Period of Enlightenment, and it was introduced by... Prabhupāda: Hm? Democracy? Haṁsadūta: Democracy was first introduced in an age which they call the Age of Enlightenment in French history. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: The idea was that everyone should be pleased, that everyone should take... *Prabhupāda: No, where is the... In France, everyone is pleased? That is the imagination. You see. Vox populi, peoples' government. People, generally, general people, they are fools and rascals. How a government of fools and rascals can improve? It's not possible. They're ignorant. Abodha*-jāta. They have no knowledge. The knowledge of eating, sleeping, mating, defending, that is animal knowledge. Everyone knows it. How to eat, nobody requires any education. How to sleep, nobody requires and any education. How to have sex life, nobody requires any education. How to defend, nobody requires education. They are not subject matter of education. Everyone knows it, how to do it. The modern education means they are on this subject matter. Just like that rascal, Freud? Haṁsadūta: Freud. Prabhupāda: He has written a big philosophy on sex life. Does it require any education? Anyone knows how to use sex life. And he has written big book. Similarly, defense also: they are making big, big arrangements, atomic bomb. I am making atomic bomb, you are making... Similarly, sleeping: big, big skyscraper building; *eating: start thousands of slaughterhouse. Formerly also there were meat*-eaters. But did they maintain slaughterhouse? "All right, I want to eat meat. Just go in the forest. Kill one animal. That's all. Pick it up." So this advancement of civilization means advancement of slaughterhouse, advancement of skyscraper building, advancement of atom bomb, advancement of Freud philosophy. This is advancement. The subject matter is the same, which does not require any education. Nobody requires education on this subject matter. Even the birds and beasts, they know what is their eatable. And they eat and they live. Now the advancement... Agricultural institute, a big college, how to improve agriculture. Crude people, they are producing also. Without agricultural college, they are producing sufficiently grain and eating. Still they do so. Do they depend on agricultural education? Real education is how to solve the problems of life, birth, death, old age, and how to go back to home, back to... That is education. This is not education. This is simply waste of time. Because you cannot change your destiny. Now, take for example, there are so many agricultural improvements. Does it mean that there is no person who is needy? There are so many needy persons. But has the agricultural education improved their lot? No. Starving people are still there. Rather, those who can produce, they're producing and throwing into the sea. They'll not part with it for the poor men who are starving. Then where is the advancement of education? You produce more by advanced agricultural process and then throw it into the ocean. Real purpose was to produce more to see that nobody's hungry. That is not being done. There is no sympathy. This is not civilization. This is a hodge-podge. Simply wasting labor. That's all. Now here, the Parliament, now what is the use of Parliament? They have lost their empire. What is the use of Parliament? Formerly they had to rule all over the world. So representative, Parliament... Now they have got... What they have got? But still they have got the Parliament, the bodyguard, the King, Queen. Show only. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this so-called advancement of civilization has no meaning. Simply waste of time. *Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -*-July 11, 1973, London Father Tanner: ...any compulsive behavior? Prabhupāda: Because we follow Vedic principles. So *Vedas* declare that these four kinds of activity, they are sinful. So we accept. Our authority is Veda. Just like lawyer's authority is lawbook. Father Tanner: Would you say there are more sins than those four? Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Father Tanner: Are there other sins? Śrutakīrti: Are there other sins beside these four...? Prabhupāda: These are the basic principle of sinful life. Other sinful activities come out of it. Just like illicit sex life. Illicit relationship of a man and woman, there may be many dangerous things. You see? So the basic principle is the illicit sex life. Now, it can go up to murdering and so many things. So if we avoid the basic principles, the further subsidiary sinful activities automatically stopped. Father Tanner: But... I haven't remembered the four, but is one of those basic principles concerned with truth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: Which one? Prabhupāda: Because... Father Tanner: Now, it was told... Now I've forgotten the four. Prabhupāda: Because Veda, Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means truth. Unless you come to the knowledge of truth, your knowledge is not perfect. Father Tanner: But do you specifically have a precept against telling a lie, or against hypocrisy? Prabhupāda: Well, hypocrisy and other things, they are subsidiary. If one is pure from the very beginning, then there is no chance of becoming hypocrite. Why he should be hypocrite? If he is open, clear, why one should become hypocrite? Hypocrisy, when there is sinful activity, then hypocrisy. If there is no sin, where is the possibility of hypocrisy? A sinful man may pose himself a religious man. That is hypocrisy. But if there is no sin, then where is hypocrisy? Father Tanner: What I didn't understand is how this is covered by your four pillars, the four... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: Which of these would cover lying? Prabhupāda: Lying? Father Tanner: Yes, telling lies. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...? Prabhupāda: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that? Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums... Prabhupāda: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite. Father Tanner: He would admit that,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself. Prabhupāda: How a priest can be intoxicants? Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness. Prabhupāda: Eh? Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness. Prabhupāda: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy. Father Tanner: But perhaps this is the difference, or one of the differences between western and eastern civilization... Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of eastern or western... Father Tanner: But in the East, your wise man is nearly always an elderly man. Prabhupāda: Not always. Father Tanner: Not always. Prabhupāda: Not always. Father Tanner: But in the West, you know, your priest is generally made a priest in his early twenties. Then he has thrust upon him the role of the wise man, which he doesn't always seek. *Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are very young, twenties, between twenty to thirty. So they are made here brahmacārī, and some of them are sannyāsī, but they are strictly following these principles. Because they are young men, there cannot be any concession that he can become intoxicants, he can indulge in meat*-eating. No. Father Tanner: But would you think of a young man as wise man? Isn't it normal that a young man is working his way towards wisdom? Prabhupāda: The wise man becomes by knowledge, not by age. Even an old man, if he has no knowledge, what is...? He is not wise man. Wise means one who has attained knowledge. He may be young, he may be old. It doesn't matter. Vidyatvaṁ vayasā vinā. In Sanskrit word, that one becomes elderly without being advanced in age. That means he knows the knowledge. Therefore he is elderly. An elderly person means advanced in knowledge, not by age. Father Tanner: Hm. But, you see, knowledge and attainment aren't the same thing. You know, I may know that it is wrong to be an alcoholic, and maybe I am not actually, physically an alcoholic, but it doesn't mean to say that interiorally I have cleansed myself of all addiction. The fact that you are not drinking for a year doesn't mean to say that you have overcome the intoxicant urge if that is in you, although you know it is wrong. Prabhupāda: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present. Father Tanner: But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality? Prabhupāda: This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration. Father Tanner: But what he is at present may be an accident. Prabhupāda: Why accident? Which is actually happening, why it is accident? Father Tanner: Well, for instance, if you take a man shipwrecked on an island alone, he is not in any sense taking part in impure love, or illicit love. But it doesn't mean to say that he is free from all desire for illicit love. Prabhupāda: No. Nobody's free. But so long he acts nicely, he's nice. Father Tanner: So it is the action, rather than the, no, the exterior rather than the interior. Prabhupāda: No, interior... Well, of course, everyone has got interior tendency, but by practicing actually, exteriorally, that interior also is reformed. It is, by external behavior, the interior behavior also becomes fixed up. By practice. Therefore there is regular class so that he may be purified internally and externally. Sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. If you constantly remember the Supreme Lord, so you become automatically purified, internally and externally. Because the Lord is absolute, so if we chant the Lord's holy name, the name is also Lord. He has no difference between His name and Himself. Father Tanner: Well, you see, we make a difference between the law and the spirit of the law, or the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. And we can say a man can keep the letter of the law without in any way keeping the spirit of the law. Prabhupāda: No, that is materially difference. But spiritually... Father Tanner: Spiritually, that is different. Prabhupāda: No. Spiritually, the Lord and His name, the Lord and His form, the Lord and His quality, They are all identical. Devotee: No, but there's a little misunderstanding. Prabhupāda is saying "Lord." Not... Father Tanner: Oh, you're saying "Lord." I'm sorry. I was saying "law." Prabhupāda: No, no. Devotee: Law, law, the command, law. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord. Father Tanner: Yes. You can have the letter of the law... Prabhupāda: No, I'm not speaking of law. I'm talking of Lord. Father Tanner: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Lord and Lord's name, They're the same, identical. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this Kṛṣṇa name and the Kṛṣṇa person, identical. Because the Lord is absolute. In the material world, the world of duality, the name is not the substance. If you require water, simply by chanting "Water, water," your thirst will not be quenched. You require the substance water. But in the spiritual world, the Lord and His name, the same thing. If you chant the Lord's name, Kṛṣṇa, or any name of Lord, that is identical with the Lord. Therefore by chanting the holy name of the Lord, you are associating with the Lord. And as soon as you associate with the Lord, you become purified. Because Lord is all*-pure. Just like if you associate with fire, you become warm. Similarly, if you constantly associate with the Lord, you remain purified. Therefore our principle is they are always chanting... Just like we are... I am chanting also. (Holds up beads) Or reading some book. Or talking with you about Kṛṣṇa. So we are always connected with Kṛṣṇa, or God. In all our activities... The whole house, you'll see, they are engaged in some sort of work which has connection with Kṛṣṇa. There is no other work. So nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. Anything attached with God, that is also godly. Father Tanner: You say... Mrs. Wells: I can see what Father Tanner means about the spiritual man on the outside not necessarily being pure on the inside. Prabhupāda: No, he's not spiritual man. He's a hypocrite. He must be inside and outside correct. If one is outside correct, inside wrong, he's not spiritual man. We don't accept him. Mrs. Wells: But you begin with the outside. Prabhupāda: No. Inside and outside, both. Mrs. Wells: But your principles pertain to the outside man. Prabhupāda: Outside man? Mrs. Wells: The actions... Guest (1) (British young man): You said that the four pillars that you follow are outward manifestations. They belong to a material person. Prabhupāda: Outward manifestation? Guest 1: Hm. Prabhupāda: So outward manifestation... Just like outwardly, iron rod, it is iron. Iron. Do you follow me? Mrs. Wells: Yes, iron. Prabhupāda: But you put the iron in the fire... Mrs. Wells: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red*-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual. Mrs. Wells: And how long do you think this takes to... Prabhupāda: So long you keep in spiritual activities. Mrs. Wells: For a young man or a young woman, beginning? Prabhupāda: Well, I say that there is every chance of falling down. That is up to you to keep fit. Otherwise there is chance of falling down. But even he falls down, whatever he has done, that is permanent. Father Tanner: But, you see, in your example, if you take your iron... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...which is hot... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...once it's been immersed into the, you know, fire and is hot, then it must always burn, whatever you touch. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say... Father Tanner: It's become... If you take your person, your spiritual man, or the person who's trying to become a spiritual man, and he could have done his best to make his contact with the spirit, he doesn't always after that be spiritual. You know. your iron has to burn. He hasn't got to be spiritual. Prabhupāda: No, no. As the... If you keep the iron always hot, it is fire. Is it not? Similarly, if you always keep yourself within the spiritual activities, then you are spirit. Father Tanner: You see, I don't think that the spiritual activities which are external forms can really... Prabhupāda: No. Father Tanner: ...of themselves change the internal man. Prabhupāda: Yes, it changes. Father Tanner: Now, I... Prabhupāda: Actually, You can see here. Father Tanner: You can have a person who goes to church every Sunday, who says his prayers... *Prabhupāda: No, our program is not like that, we go after seven days. We are twenty*-four hours engaged. Father Tanner: Yes, yes. But all I'm saying is you can have this, and they are not spiritual. Prabhupāda: No, why not spiritual? Father Tanner: And, you know, I don't know your disciples... Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Yes. *Father Tanner: I don't know your disciples, but it is possible that some of them, even with twenty*-four hour a day, you know, exercises... Prabhupāda: Yes, our program is like that. Father Tanner: ...fail to become spiritual. *Prabhupāda: Now, our program here is like that. We have got Deities, six times ārati. In preparation for that, cleansing the temple room, washing the dishes of the Deity, cooking for the Deity, arranging for the other things... So they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like we have got so many books. So they are reading books of Kṛṣṇa. This is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So... Or they are going to saṅkīrtana party. That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is a question of practice and practical understanding. A theoretically one cannot understand. But we have got twenty*-four hours engagement for these boys. Not a single moment lost. In this way we train them. Father Tanner: You see, I really don't know... I don't deny that, but I don't see the difference externally between that and brainwashing. Prabhupāda: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Kṛṣṇa. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly. Father Tanner: Would you think it is possible to hate the Deity? Prabhupāda: Hate? Father Tanner: Hate the Deity? Prabhupāda: Why? Father Tanner: Is it possible? Prabhupāda: No, a devotee cannot hate the Deity. How he... Then how he can serve? Father Tanner: Because you can see the Deity as too strong, repressive, taking away your freedom, your own wishes... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ... and so you can come to hate the Deity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritualism means to sacrifice your freedom. That is spiritualism. You have no more freedom. You are simply engaged for God's service. That is spiritualism. Father Tanner: Why, why, why were we created free? Prabhupāda: Eh? Father Tanner: Why were we created? *Prabhupāda: You are not free. You are thinking so*-called free. You are not free. You are under the stringent laws of nature. You are not free. You are thinking foolishly that you are free. Father Tanner: But if I am not free... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...then I can't give up my freedom for religion. Prabhupāda: You are free to some extent, because you are part and parcel of God. God is completely free. So because you are part and parcel of God, therefore you have got that minute freedom. That minute freedom, when you misuse for other purposes, then you fall down. But if you use that freedom for the service of the Lord... You have got freedom. You may serve the Lord, you may not serve. That is your freedom. But if you serve the Lord, then you become happy. If you do not serve the Lord, then you become unhappy. Father Tanner: If I serve the Lord, do I lose that little bit of freedom? Prabhupāda: Because you are meant for that purpose. Father Tanner: Do I lose that little bit of freedom? Prabhupāda: No, that is real freedom. Just like this, my finger, is part and parcel of my body. So long the finger serves the body, it is healthy. If it is painful, it cannot serve, then it is unhealthy. Similarly, a living entity, when he cannot serve God, that is his material condition, or unhealthy condition. When he serves God, that is his natural condition. Because he's part and parcel of God. Father Tanner: Where did we lose the contact with God? Prabhupāda: When you misused your freedom. You have got little freedom. Father Tanner: But at what point did I... No. Or, a child lose its contact with its Creator? *Prabhupāda: It is said... Suppose I am serving my master. I can think of, "Oh, why shall I serve him? I shall become independent." That is my freedom, little freedom. So I cannot become independent. That is not my healthy stage. Just like... Take for example, a dog. A dog is healthy when he has got a good master. And if he hasn't got a good master, he's a street dog, neglected. He's not healthy. Similarly our position is like that, that we must be dependent on God. Therefore in your Christian Bible also you go for your bread: "God, give us our daily bread." So you are dependent. So it is better to remain dependent on God than to use your so*-called little freedom. Father Tanner: But your dog can be healthy in two ways, can't he? The dog can be healthy... , Prabhupāda: No, no, this is an example. Father Tanner: ...if he has a good master, and he can be healthy if he has no master. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: If your dog is just running free in its natural state, he is a healthy animal, but... Prabhupāda: No, a dog is not healthy. I am giving that particular example. Then he's a street dog. A street dog has no position. He's not healthy. I am giving a crude example, that a dog's posit... Similarly, we are all dependent on God. That is in your Bible also. Father Tanner: Oh, yes, I accept. Prabhupāda: So to remain dependent on God is our healthy state. As soon as we declare independent of God, that is our unhealthy state. This is our philosophy. And your philosophy also. To remain there. That is the Vedic injunction, that nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference between God and ourself? God is also a living entity like us, but He's the chief living entity. He's maintaining all others. Therefore we have to ask God, "Give us our daily bread." He's the maintainer; we are maintained. Just like in a family, the father is the maintainer, and the mother and the children and the servants, they are maintained, similarly the whole universe, whole creation, it is maintained by God, and we living entities, within this universe or within this creation, we are maintained. So as we are maintained, it is better to remain dependent on God than to declare our freedom. Father Tanner: But you can in this world, within the limits of time and space,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...be a healthy person without admitting your dependence on God. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are depending. We have no business. Father Tanner: You can be healthy and live... Prabhupāda: Now, healthy, what do you mean by healthy? Father Tanner: Well, you know, you were saying it's what a man does that makes him that if he is pure here and now, then, and it's not his inside. It's his outside... Prabhupāda: Our description of healthy life, healthy life is to become God conscious. That is healthy life. Otherwise do you think that an animal like elephant, very strong, does it mean that it is healthy? No. Father Tanner: No, I would say an elephant can be healthy, my body can be healthy. Prabhupāda: Well, that is temporary. Everyone is subjected to death. So you may be very strong, healthy, but you cannot avoid death. Father Tanner: No, but then, then... *Prabhupāda: So, so therefore, ultimately, you become so*-called healthy or not healthy, you'll die. That is the fact. So we do not want that kind of healthy life. Our proposition is that we go back to home back to Godhead and remain with God, eternally enjoying blissful life. This is our healthy life. Father Tanner: I, I accept these principles, but, you know, the words, I would say you could be healthy, but, you know, when you go to God at the end, this isn't on your physical healthiness. Prabhupāda: No. Father Tanner: This is on your spiritual self. Prabhupāda: When you go to God, you go in your spiritual body. Father Tanner: Yes. Prabhupāda: Spiritual body. So... Father Tanner: But you can be physically healthy... Prabhupāda: Spiritually, when you get your spiritual body, there is no such material inconveniences. The material inconveniences means so long you have got this material body, you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. When you revive your spiritual body, these four things are not with you. No more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more old age. This is the difference between spiritual life and material life. Father Tanner: Yes, I mean, this, I think, anyone who's in any sense spiritual or religious or ethical would admit because the spiritual body has no parts. So it cannot start to be or cease to be and cannot change within his own entity. Prabhupāda: No, the spiritual body is there already. Just like you have got your body. The coat is made according to your body. You existed first. Your coat was made later on. Similarly, spiritually, we exist eternally. Now, according to our different types of activities, we get a body, material body. There are eight million, four hundred thousand different forms of bodies. So the spirit soul is transmigrating according to his desire and work to different types of body. This is called transmigration of the soul. ... Father Tanner: You would hold that the spirit is eternal... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...in the sense that in the beginning all spirits were contained within the Deity,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...and at the end all spirits will refind themselves in the Deity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: What...? Would you ever admit that a spirit could fail after his last chance...? Prabhupāda: That misuse of little independence. That I have already told. He has got little independence. So so long he's engaged in the service of the Lord, he remains in a spiritual body along with the Lord. Father Tanner: No, I'm saying is it possible for any spirit not ultimately, after his various transmigrations through bodies, is it possible for any spirit never to regain contact with the Lord? Prabhupāda: Yes. If he comes in contact with a servant of God, then he revives his old consciousness, original consciousness. Devotee: Prabhupāda, what he was saying was is it possible for a spirit soul never to regain the state of God consciousness. Prabhupāda: No, why never? He has got chance. When he comes in contact with a servant of the Lord, he revives his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then he begins his spiritual life. So how can you say...? Father Tanner: But is it possible... You know, the world one day will end, and physical bodies will end... Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Father Tanner: The world will not end? Prabhupāda: World will end. Yes. Father Tanner: Yes. Now, I'm saying, when this time comes when all physical things end, will any of the spirits fail to reunite with the Godhead? Prabhupāda: Now, when, as soon as he likes to reunite. That is... That depends on his liking and not liking. Father Tanner: Hm. But would you admit that... Prabhupāda: There is no... You are talking of mechanically. But I am talking of that little independence. As soon as the living entity desires to unite with the Supreme Lord, he can become. Father Tanner: Yes, but will it ever... Prabhupāda: And so long he does not desire, he'll have to continue this material existence. So that depends on him. Father Tanner: And could that go on and on forever, his not desiring? Prabhupāda: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance. Father Tanner: Now, taking that person, when material things cease, what happens to him? *Prabhupāda: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi*-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping. Father Tanner: Is there a spirit opposed to the divine spirit? Prabhupāda: Spirit opp...? Father Tanner: Opposed. Taking that the, you know, that God is good,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: ...is there another spirit that is not good? Prabhupāda: No, we are all another spirit. Just like the father and the son. The father is also a spirit. The son is also another spirit. Father Tanner: Can there be opposition in the spirit world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Tanner: Conflict in the spirit world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Just like father has got ten sons. Some of them are opposition to the father. And some of them are very obedient. Father Tanner: But the... I'm not saying of the spirit in man. I'm saying of spirits in themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spirit in themselves, they are not opposition. Father Tanner: Can they be in opposition? Prabhupāda: No. When they are in opposition, they have to accept this material body. Just like the citizens in the prison house, it means they are all in opposition to the laws of the state, similarly, anyone who is in this material world, they are in opposition to the supreme will of the Lord. Therefore they are put into this material world in varieties of life. So they can stop that opposition and again go back to home, back to Godhead. Father Tanner: You'd like to go, would you? Mrs. Wells: Yes. Father Tanner: I'm sorry. Mrs. Wells has to go, sir. And you look very tired. Prabhupāda: No, I am not tired. I am a little old. Mrs. Wells: We have the devil within us. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam. Father Tanner: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So our movement is we are training people to revive their original God consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. Father Tanner: Can I eat this up, then? Prabhupāda: Yes, take. Father Tanner: Thank you. Mrs. Wells: Is it fattening? Devotee: No. Father Tanner: No? Is it...? Śrutakīrti: She asked if it was fattening. Mrs. Wells: (laughing) A joke. No. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: She asked if it was fattening. Prabhupāda: Fattening? Śrutakīrti: Would make her heavy. Prabhupāda: No. Śrutakīrti: Gain weight. Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books. Father Tanner: I have got several of your books. *Prabhupāda: I see. Thank you. So we are approaching people to become God conscious. That's all. (Aside:) Get the light on. And in the Bhāgavata it is stated, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first*-class religion which teaches people how to love God. That is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Hindu religion or Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, if it teaches the followers how to love God, then it is first-class. Father Tanner: I think I'm almost only teaching them to love one another. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One another, that is going on in so many ways. You see? That has never become successful. Neither it will become successful. That is a fact. Because here the atmosphere is so surcharged with material ideas that even if I want to love you, you may not like it. That is the position here. So you cannot be successful to teach people to love one another. That will never be successful. That has never been successful. But if you can teach people how to love God... Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them how to love themselves? Prabhupāda: Eh? Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them to love themselves. Prabhupāda: Everyone is loving themselves. That is... Mrs. Wells: Do you think so? Prabhupāda: That does not require teaching. How to eat... You love your body, therefore you eat. Mrs. Wells: I didn't mean that sort of love. Prabhupāda: Then what kind of love? Mrs. Wells: Loving your own being for what God gave you. Loving yourself as you are, accepting yourself. That's very difficult, you know. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is that, they are... Father Tanner: Loving your own personality. Prabhupāda: Loving your personality... First of all you know what you are, what is your personality. Father Tanner: But... Prabhupāda: If you do not know what you are, then how you can love yourself? Mrs. Wells: This is the problem. Prabhupāda: Yes. And what you are. If I ask you what you are, can you answer? Mrs. Wells: No. Prabhupāda: Then? What kind of love...? Father Tanner: But I would say that, that I am so many... Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what you are... Father Tanner: No, no. I'm saying I do know. Prabhupāda: If you know, then tell me what you are. Father Tanner: So many things it would take a long time to say. Prabhupāda: Why long time? You can speak in short shell, nutshell, that "I am this." Father Tanner: No, no. Not... You know, in some ways... Prabhupāda: We can say. We can say. Father Tanner: In some ways, I am very intolerant. In some way, I am very tolerant. Prabhupāda: That, that is another thing. First of all I must know what is my identity. Father Tanner: But my identity is made up of so many... It's not one thing. Prabhupāda: But that one... First of all one. Just like we say that "My identity is that I am eternal servant of God." This is my identity. Father Tanner: Well, this is the inner being, but then it finds expression in me... Prabhupāda: Now, as servant of God, I may have many activities. But my identity is that I am eternal servant of God. This is our identity. So if I love myself, because I am eternal servant of God, therefore, if I actually I love myself, I must always engage myself in the service of the Lord. This is love. Father Tanner: But there must, in your self, there must be times when you're angry, times when you're... Prabhupāda: I can become angry for God. Father Tanner: Times when you're proud, times when you're humble. Prabhupāda: For God's sake... Suppose you are serving some master. For the master's satisfaction, you sometimes become angry. Father Tanner: Hm, but I think what Susan was saying is that our personality... *Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm... First of all, if you keep your identity fixed*-up, even if you become angry, it is not bad. Father Tanner: No. But you can become it... what, you know, we are saying is... Prabhupāda: Suppose just like I tell you that a dog is your servant. It is standing on the door. Some thief is coming. If the dog becomes angry, "Baw! Gaw! Gow!" so that, to become angry is not bad for the dog... Father Tanner: No. *Prabhupāda: ...because he's serving the master. So similarly, if you are fixed*-up in your business as servant of the Lord, so even if you become angry for Lord's service, that is not bad. Father Tanner: But you..., the dog might bite his master. Prabhupāda: No. Father Tanner: Yes, he can. *Prabhupāda: I don't think a... Anyway, that is dog. I... That's a crude example. But a spirit soul, when he's fixed*-up in the service of the Lord, he does not bite his master. (laughter) He does not... He only serves. So we must know, if I actually love myself, first of all I know what I am. If I know, then I can properly love myself. If I do not know what I am if I think that "I am this body," oh, this conception the dog has also. He's also thinking, "I am this body." To keep this body in fitness, to eat nicely, to sleep nicely, this consciousness is there in cats and dogs. So therefore, as spirit soul, as human being, first of all you know that "Whether I am this body or something else?" Father Tanner: But you know what you are and what you become. I hate what I am. I want to become something different. Prabhupāda: No, that is your freedom. You can do. Father Tanner: Now, this is the same as a material man saying "I want to become spiritual or God conscious or what have you." But, you know, because I want to become this, it doesn't mean that I am this. Because I want to become God's servant, it doesn't mean that I am God's servant. *Prabhupāda: No, you don't, you do not want, you want or not want, that is not the question. First of all you must know what is your real identity. You do not want and do want, that independence you have got always. That is a different thing. But first of all you must know what is your identity. Your identity is... That I have already explained. The... You are part and parcel of God. So far we understand, our philosophy is... From the Bhagavad*-gītā. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. The whole thing is one unity, unit, and everything is part and parcel of God, His energy. So we, the marginal energy, living entities, we are also part and parcel of God. As part and parcel of God, what is my duty? Just like this finger. There is itching. Immediately it comes, serves. (end) *Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -*-July 12, 1973, London Buddhist Monk (1): ...living religion... Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): ...without which we cannot go very much further. Prabhupāda: This is humanity. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, humanity. I was in Hrishikesh and five or six times in India. So that is why,... Wherever possible, I lived with them, not for long times. A day or two or three or a week at most. Share our spiritual food together. Prabhupāda: So far hospitality is concerned, according to Vedic culture, Indian homes were open for everyone, even for the enemies. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. If one gets an enemy at his home as guest, he should receive him in such a way that the man would forget about his enmity with him. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. So these are preliminary human behavior. Even without any understanding of spiritual values, they are expected to behave nicely. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. It is very easy to love someone who loves you. But real purified, selfless love is to radiate it without any discrimination, both to the person who loves and to... Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I said... Buddhist Monk (1): ...whom does not love you. That is the beginning... Prabhupāda: Therefore I said. Buddhist Monk (1): ...of that good hospitality. That's real hospitality. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That I said, Gṛhe śatrum api prāptam. Even one gets an enemy, he should be also be received. Buddhist Monk (1): He's come to your place and treat him with all the respect and courtesy... Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): ...and that loving kindness. Prabhupāda: From *Mahābhārata* we can understand that when Bhīma, Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa went to Jarāsandha to fight with him, enemy, so in the daytime they were fighting like enemies, and at night Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma and Arjuna were guests in the house of the same Jarāsandha. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. At night they were guests. They were talking very friendly, and there is no enmity. But in daytime they'll fight. (laughter) Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. Gautama the Buddha, whom I follow, who is my teacher, a poor man came, and he found him panting, asked him, "Well, what's the trouble?" "Oh, I've got news that you're here. I want to see you." And the Buddha found that not only had he run... He asked him, "When did you last have a meal?" He said, "That's quite a few days ago." He said, "We cannot preach on empty stomachs. Ānanda, give this man a good meal before he could come to me." And this fine virtue of hospitality, much as we have treasured in the past, when people leave their shores, they are inclined to forget this. I've been addressing various groups. I do not confine myself to Buddhist groups only. Whatever group was interested, to foster some understanding, good will and peace, I addressed. I said three things that many people forget when they leave their countries are first, their serene smile; secondly, hospitality; thirdly, they become ashamed of their own cultures because many are strangers of their own cultures. Prabhupāda: Hm. Buddhist Monk (1): I had last time an opportunity before coming to Southampton, I addressed some people from Śrī Laṅkā, and there were some people from Canada as well at Montreal. And I pointed this out. In this light, I find almost all the teachers that come from that part of the world and their followers are trying to live up to this noble virtue. And if people get together, live together and have meals, perhaps even that... *Prabhupāda: So these devotees, they have not been separately instructed about hospitality. But because they are devotees of the Lord, this hospitality automatically they learn. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If one becomes perfectly a devotee of the Lord, all the good qualities of demigods manifest automatically. The hospitality is also a good quality. So out of many good qualities, this is one of them. So these devotees, they are automatically well*-behaving to the guests, newcomers on account of their advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because a Kṛṣṇa conscious person takes everyone, not only human being, but even animals, insects, trees, birds, beasts, everyone, living entities, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. So it is their duty to behave well with all living entities. Not only the human beings, but also even with the animals. Ahiṁsā. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg. 13.8]. The ahiṁsā preached by Lord Buddha, that is also one of the qualifications of devotee. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we are preaching... Every religion preaches, but people do not follow. The Christian religion also preaches ahiṁsā: "Thou shall not kill," but they do not follow. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, we, as followers of the Buddha, take it from this angle, that this mental process, which is normally subject to lobha, doṣa and moha, we have to purify this mental process from these defilements and substitute liberality, including hospitality and loving kindness and wisdom. It's not only a process of purifying. It is a parallel purpose of bidding good will. Prabhupāda: Hm. Buddhist Monk (1): According to us, if we know how to live together, eat together in a cooperative spirit, we are not going to violate the five fundamental precepts, starting with (Sanskrit or Pali:) panatipata o ermani siksa patan samanti ami, (?) that is, not to cause any hurt to any mentally conscious living being. Prabhupāda: Hm. Buddhist Monk (1): And ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ, nonviolence is the highest righteousness. And from this can come so much good. If we love each other, we express that love in its purest form by sharing, and if we share, we are not going to steal anything from someone else, we're not going to commit adultery, we're not going to say lies, and we'll not be under the influence of narcotics and so on. So that's that purification process, which is very, very powerful, not only for oneself, but the society in which it is used. So this is why I emphasize this virtue, and wherever I go, I try to meet within the limitations of time and transport... Prabhupāda: Where you are staying here? London? Buddhist Monk (1): That has become a little difficult because... It's difficult. We didn't know these āśramas, and we came yesterday. The Guru Nanak temple people made arrangements for our transport. We were staying with them for one week, and they looked after us dearly, and they made arrangements for our transport to come here. Some people were coming on some other business. So they brought us. So it was not much time. So we met a person in the street, and we told them that we are looking after a place to stay. And that person said, "Well, it's difficult here." Then I asked about two or three, and we had some addresses and they were far away. Then we met a friendly gentleman who was just reversing his car. He was smiling. And we smiled. We said, "Well, could you tell us a small place to pitch a tent." We carry a small tent. We said, "For a day or two..." He asked me how long. I said, "Just to find some breathing space at least." So we have pitched up a small tent in a private garden. That's somewhere in Cheswick Lane. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Haṁsadūta: Cheswick Lane. Buddhist Monk (1): That's by the river, uh? It's quite far away, yes. So last night we stayed there. Is that on the western side of...? Devotee: Yes, that's the West Fork. Buddhist Monk (1): West Fork. West Fork. Prabhupāda: This is northern? No, southern. I do not know. We are also (Buddhist laughs) camped for the last few days. We do not know much about... Buddhist Monk (1): Much about it, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Buddhist Monk (1): I was here in 1952, and somewhere in '60 as well. I have been travelling eighteen years in nearly a hundred countries and trying to give a little good will. Of course, I am just one man, and within the capacity of one person, and this boy joined me in New Zealand about one and a half years ago. A few bridges have been made. Every religion that is not lived, according to us, fails the purpose of religion because religion should be a way of living. And if we live that, there'll be less duḥkha and more śānti, more peace. There is an awakening in almost all these parts. I was even in the east European countries, from Sofia right up to Moscow. Even there, I carried all the books, the Bible and the Bhagavad*-gītā, Buddhist books. At the frontier, they opened the books. I had all these books with me. Rāmāyaṇa, Vedas, something from Egypt, Kung-fu-tsu, Lao-tse. They opened. They looked. They put them back. Not one question was asked. And that very police officer who was passing my passport, I saw him in the restaurant. He called me. Because I had an old photograph which I had taken when I first started travelling. That's twenty years I didn't take it seriously. So he said, "This is not you." First, you know, before I met him in the restaurant, I said, "Technically you may be right because we are changing every moment. So it's not myself." (sighs) But after some time he passed my passport, and then I went to the restaurant where I saw him. He said, he called me, he said, "Formerly I was an officer, and now you are my friend. What do you eat?" (Prabhupāda chuckles) Well, he asked the waitress to "Come bring him a very fine meal, the best you can offer in the restaurant." I said, "That's very kind." Then he said, "I'll bring you meat and all that (indistinct)." I said, "Please keep me out of it. I am a pure vegetarian." "What do you eat?" I said, "All vegetables. If you have rice, it's good." "Oh, bring him a vodka!" Prabhupāda: Vodka? What...? Buddhist Monk (1): Vodka. Haṁsadūta: Whiskey. Liquor. *Buddhist Monk (1): He tried whiskey. He said, "Come to vodka because vodka's whiskey here," he says, "in this country." I told him, "I don't drink that either." "What do you eat and what do you drink?!" So... He asked me, "What's the matter with you?" "There's nothing wrong with me. (laughter) I am quite healthy, and everything... I am a follower of the Buddha, and our first precept is nonviolence to all mentally conscious living beings. And that's the reason why we follow this." "Ah, you miss the steak don't you?" I said, "I miss nothing. If one wants to have vegetables prepared, there are so many ways of preparing it, healthier, and if one wants taste, it will be even more tasteful." "All right, all right. Bring him as many vegetables. And what do you drink? Beer?" I said, "No. Fruit drinks, if you have." "You order." He gave me a listing. I wanted to pay. He wouldn't allow me to pay, and he paid it. Those people are kind there. And from the time I got, went across, I could talk to anyone without any restriction. I could discuss religion with farmers, factory workers, doctors, lawyers, whom I met in the course of my visit. And they were getting interested. Because people who have not seen materialism, they are very crazy for it. But once they have it, and it is beginning to be a surfeit, and divorces and suicides and other troubles increase, nervous cases, they think, "Oh, now there is a vacuum setting in." So they are interested. I was in every east European country. They never tried to tamper with my books or my talks. Of course, I didn't organize any public talks. I didn't, made no attempt. Then Czechoslovaks, Hungarians, very warm*-hearted people. There are yoga classes there. And I met quite a few Hungarians outside who referred to yoga. Then Rumanians, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians. They are friendly people. Swamiji, have you been there in eastern European countries? Prabhupāda: I have been in Moscow. Buddhist Monk (1): Moscow? They're friendly people. I will go back again. Prabhupāda: Yes. I know. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. So it is a world which is shrinking... Prabhupāda: The government is against any religious... Buddhist Monk (1): Well, not so strict now as in past because the word "religion" has been used as a narcotic by people. The religious institution was kissing the state, and the state was kissing religion. *Prabhupāda: When I was in airport, the customs clearance, as soon as they saw my book, Bhagavad*-gītā, they called police. (laughter) Buddhist Monk (1): I was also getting ready... Prabhupāda: So the policeman saw and said, "Oh, you can go." Buddhist Monk (1): Well... Prabhupāda: They were so suspicious. *Buddhist Monk (1): Well, I was wondering whether they would ask me whether I am bringing narcotic, the religion, the heart of the heartless, soul of the soulless, the opiate of the masses. So I had read Marx before I left my country. I had thought "They will ask me," but no such question was asked. And ultimately, when I was leaving the Soviet Union, they again opened my books, you see, and put them back. One book, an officer kept one book. I thought, "Now, what is this? All right." He closed the suitcase, did not put this book, and he comes behind me and says, "Could I have this book?" I said, "You see, I have made many notes in the book. Why do you want that book for? So kindly return it to me, please." He wouldn't return it. He follows. And he said, "Please let me have it." I asked him, "Why do you want this book really for?" He said, "I have studied Buddhism from the Northern School, and I would like to know something about the Southern School of Buddhism." I said, "Anyhow, you can get these books, I'll give you an address." But he wouldn't give it to me. He said "Please let me have it." I said, "All right, good health and peace to you. You can have it." Hungarians are very warm*-hearted people, very warm-hearted people. Prabhupāda: It is for me? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Leave it. Buddhist Monk (1): And Swamiji, you generally spend more of your time here? Prabhupāda: Yes, Generally, in America, Los Angeles. And also in Europe. Buddhist Monk (1): We went to Hare Krishna in Los Angeles, (indistinct) couple of days. Buddhist monk (2): Did you visit there? Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. I remember, there we took our car, and when we were coming there, they were waving to us. I think that the world is shrinking; not that any continents are going down to the sea, but people are moving about the place. I think the more we start thinking about one world rather than big barriers and get together and meet together and talk together in a spirit of loving kindness, with tolerance, radiating our love always, I think this is the only way I know of. And people are getting interested in the universities, and other, high schools. Not still by the millions, but certainly by the hundreds and thousands. And that's good enough for a start. Prabhupāda: Some of our books were selected textbooks in many colleges, universities. You have seen our books? Buddhist Monk (1): I have seen some of them, not all of them. Because I meet these boys and girls, and... I seen that book about... *Prabhupāda: Our..., this book, Nectar of Devotion, that is a study book in the Temple University, Philadelphia. Similarly, our Kṛṣṇa Book, and what other books? They are...? Especially Kṛṣṇa Book and Nectar of Devotion. Bhagavad*-gītā also, As It Is. (pause) We consider Lord Buddha also as incarnation of God. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, I know that. Of course, on this there's a difference of view between the orthodox Buddhists and that thinking. Because during the earlier days of Buddhist preaching there were certain differences of opinion. And the brāhmaṇa sections fell into various categories. Some of them were not very friendly, and others accepted quite a few of his, their teachings. And a third section, led by people like Sarikuta (?) and Munkali (?), Sanmukhala (?), they became followers as well. And, of course, so many things have been incorporated, kāma, krodha, lobha, kleśa, abhimāna. They are very similar to the teachings of the Buddha, and they are very progressive. Because lobha, lobha, lobha, lobha is at the root of our problems. (Sanskrit or Pali:) Tanhaya jayate soko, tanhaya jayate bhayak, tanhaya vipra mukta syat, nati soko ato bhayat. "Greed is the cause of suffering, greed is the cause of fear. Remove this greed: where is the suffering? Where is the fear?" And, of course, being tolerant and understanding, man being a bundle of habits and customs, we cannot eradicate all grief overnight. But certainly we can start reducing this greed. Reduce and reduce. And then that's the only way to purify the mind. And then ought show such a society where greed has been reduced will be relatively a peaceful society. Simple living, high thinking and high practice. That's the cornerstone of our philosophies. Multiplication of so many (indistinct), colonational output, flying to the moon and not going into one's mind, and producing these things and calling them (indistinct). What is... Prabhupāda: Sometimes we find that peaceful living is visible even in animal society. Just like the cows. They're very peaceful. There are other animals, dogs and others. They fight. But hundreds and thousands of cows, they live very peacefully. Birds also... Just like the swans, they live very peacefully. So is that the highest goal of life, to live peacefully? Because that is also found in animal society. Is that the perfection of life? Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, a man has to ask himself a simple and straightforward question. What really does he want to put his life to? Does he want suffering or peace? Prabhupāda: No, suffering, of course, nobody wants. That's a fact. Buddhist Monk (1): That's it, that's it... Prabhupāda: But in this material world, even if you become peaceful, does it mean that you are out of suffering? I don't think. *Buddhist Monk (1): Yeah. Well, I've been asking in all these universities, high schools, and all those, all those audiences, "What is the purpose of this so*-called modern education? What is the purpose? If so, kindly define this purpose. Have people thought on this?" I just gave a broadcast at Southampton day before yesterday. Nobody, not many people appear to have seriously considered this question. Is it to fly to the moon? Is it to be a food taster or a noise lover? Or is it to build dreams and castles in the air? Or to soak one's self in the whirlpools of kāma, sensuality? What is this meant for? What is our education for? No one appeared... Very, very few people have appeared to ... Prabhupāda: No, there is no aim of the education. Their only aim is economic development. Buddhist Monk (1): That's right. Prabhupāda: And that means a higher standard of sense gratification. Buddhist Monk (1): The more material doubts people can produce, that's supposed to be the educated person. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Buddhist Monk (1): And I told them directly and indirectly, "Your systems, which have transplanted the well, type systems, especially of India, has created a catastrophe. We have made mistakes in the past. But we profited by them, and we want a successful educational system that taught the individual how to give himself peace within himself, mentally and physically. Within his family, within his relations society, nation and the world. And today that system has been overtaken by this materialistic system. One calls himself materialist directly. Another, camouflage, just under the name of religion. That's the only difference I know of in these two systems in the West. That's the only difference." And I told them. I said, "We want peace. Śānti, śānti, śānti. And we know the danger of playing with the fireball of materialism, which is throwing its tentacles into every part of society: divorces, nervous cases, mental cases, cancers, suicides, family life is breaking. And it reminds me of Gibbon's writing about the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. And all those symptoms are there in this so*-called progressive, civilized culture." I used the word "so-called." And this mind... Prabhupāda: But what remedy you have suggested? Buddhist Monk (1): Reduction of greed, and substitution of liberality. There is no other remedy. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Buddhist Monk (1): Because greed causes the rat*-race. Greed causes these wars. But if we reduce this, and the reduction parallelly followed by simple living, high thinking and high practice. There is no other remedy, whatever religion a man follows. If they get involved in this rat-race of materialism, war is inevitable, whether for a stretch of water or of land. But if man lives a simple life, this Mother Earth can be made to produce everything that is necessary. Soya beans are a very fine substitute for meat. And if they do not damage the crust of the earth, and if they scientifically control birth, scientifically, not by drugs and pills, which are dangerous... Prabhupāda: What is that scientifically? Buddhist Monk (1): It's a control of the sex, sex. Prabhupāda: That is brahmacārī. Buddhist Monk (1): Brahmacārī. (Background talking, people entering.) Prabhupāda: Let them come. They want to see me. Let them come. Buddhist Monk (1): And (Sanskrit or Pali:) tan moha veda krati dhanacari. (?) Prabhupāda: Come. (People coming in.) This greediness... That is a good suggestion, that you reduce your greediness, but unless they get a substitute, they cannot. That is the difficulty. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. The substitute is, according to us... We point out the difference between the sensual, fleeting pleasures, which is not quite a proper word... It's no pleasure, in that (it) brings pain and suffering. In the renunciation of greed is prīti, delight. And when a man enjoys delight, that's incomparably better and lasting, more... *Prabhupāda: According to Vedānta philosophy, every living entity is searching after delight. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, a living entity is delightful, but he has been covered by this temporary material covering, and therefore his delightness is perverted. So our philosophy, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, is that paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. If you give him better delight, then he can give up this inferior delight of material enjoyment. Otherwise, simply by instructing that "You give up this," it is difficult. Buddhist Monk (1): That's right. You are... One has to... (Sanskrit or Pali:) Śambhuḥ pāpas cākāraṇa, kuśalasya upasampada sac citto parayodapanam etaṁ buddham anuśāsana. (?) Abstain from the unwholesome, the source of all our problems and suffering, lobha, doṣa, moha. Kuśalasya upasampada. Practice the virtues, that is when the mind is rooted in alobha, that is nongreed, liberality, including hospitality; *adoṣa, nonhatred, evil, all*-loving kindness; *amoha opanya (?) wisdom. And why? When one is on the noble, eight*-fold path-right understanding, right thinking, right speech, right bodily action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration-there is that oozing joy and delight. And that is the finest substitute. Men, because of avidyā, have not tasted delight. Because of his weakness, they thought mokṣa,... (knock on door) Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): ...that it was here in this earth when they indulge in sensualities. (More people coming in) *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiye. Jaya. (pause) You are from India? (Hindi*-few sentences with guest) So we are therefore presenting Kṛṣṇa, the most delightful feature. So chanting and dancing before Kṛṣṇa, taking His prasādam, and practicing delightful nature, awakening the delightful consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So as this is taking practical shape, all these European, American boys, Canadian, African, they are becoming delightful, and with great delight, they are chanting, dancing and taking prasādam. Guest (1) (Indian man): But they are very... I am very envious of them. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): I am very envious of them because they have got this guru's grace on them. Prabhupāda: (Chuckling) Yes. *Guest (1): This guru's grace is working. It is invisible, you see. This is all*-powerful. Prabhupāda: No, you can get also, provided you take it. (laughter) Guru is not miser. (laughter) Guest (1): (indistinct) is, Gurudeva you see, I want that... Prabhupāda: The one thing is they take it. Others will not take it. That is the difference. If... There is a picture; *my Guru Mahārāja has..., one man has fallen in a deep well, and he's crying "Save me!" So another man dropped a rope, that "You catch it. I shall carry you." Then he'll not catch it. Then how he can be drawn. So... [break] ...mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. "There is nothing more superior than Me." We are preaching the same thing, that "You are searching after God. You are, some of you are disgusted that 'There is no God,' but here is God. You take His name. You take His address. You take His daily activities. Everything is there." And that is our mission. And we started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in 1966. So when I registered this society, somebody suggested that "Why not make it 'God consciousness?' " And no, I want to give definitely what is God. God, they have got different conception. But here is God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is the Vedic injunction. "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And when He was present, He proved it, that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we have not introduced any new system of religion. That is not a fact. We have simply placed, administered, the same thing which was spoken five thousand years ago. That's all. Five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa said that "There is nothing, no more superior authority than Me." We are preaching the same thing. The same old thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. "You just surrender unto Me." Kṛṣṇa said that "Surrender unto Me," and we are speaking, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa; *" same thing. Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. We are speaking the same thing, that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa. We are challenging the scientists also. They are of opinion that "Life has come from matter," and we are challenging, "No, life and matter, both have come from life." This is our challenge. So originally life, originally Kṛṣṇa, life. Not matter. Matter has come subsequently. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new movement. It is the old movement. At least, historically, five thousand years old. And we have got so many books. We have... Out of sixty volumes, we have published only about twelve volumes. So it's a great literature, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So everything is there; nothing new. We haven't got to make a new system of religion. It is already there. Simply people may kindly understand it. That is our proposition. Buddhist Monk (1): What happens when similar statements are made by other people that we have, they have their own god, who is, they made a unique system, and someone else says, "No, we have our own unique system." Someone else says, "No, all those three systems we do not agree with. We have got our unique system." What's going to happen in that thing? Prabhupāda: That will... Phalena paricīyate. The system which is accepted more, that is successful. You can present so many system, but the test will be which system is more accepted by the people, by the mass, general people. That is successful. Phalena paricīyate. And if somebody says that "I have got my own god," and some other says, "I have got my own god," but this is a fact: God is one. You may call by different names. That is different thing. But God cannot be manufactured, that "You manufacture your god, I manufacture my god, he manufactures his god." That is not God. Buddhist Monk (1): That's exactly what is happening. Prabhupāda: That, happening, that is another thing. We are talking of the principle. God is one. God cannot be two. Then there is no meaning of God. Now, if I present *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, if you disagree, then you'll have to present your god. Now, we have to consider who is actually God. Just like I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. So I asked him that "Where is the difference between your communist philosophy and our philosophy? The communist philosophy, they have created their own god, Lenin." Lenin is their God. We have seen in Moscow. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, I've been... Prabhupāda: Every street, every a... Buddhist Monk (1): Every street. I know, all over. Prabhupāda: Lenin, Lenin's picture, Lenin's book. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: So I told him that "You have created your own god, Lenin. And we have got our own God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, the principle of accepting somebody as God is there, in your philosophy and in my philosophy. So that you cannot avoid. Your communistic philosophy cannot avoid the conception of God, the leader." Just like in Buddha philosophy also, there is the conception of God, of Lord Buddha. Buddhist Monk (1): No. That's not correct. Because we do not treat the Buddha... In fact, when the Buddha preached his atheistic philosophy... That's why he was termed a nāstika, a wasala. We do not believe in a god. We say panya, wisdom, and dharmuddha, is an incompatible... Prabhupāda: At least, you follow the leadership of Buddha. Buddhist Monk (1): Leadership, that's correct. *Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader. And we are to obey His orders. This is our philosophy. So if you do not obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if you obey the orders of Lord Buddha, or somebody obeys the orders of Lenin, the principle is there that you have to follow the orders of somebody. Now, you select Lenin, Kṛṣṇa or Buddha or Gandhi or anyone. That is a different thing. But the principle-to accept one leader and follow his leadership*-is there everywhere. That nobody can change. That is not possible. So the professor could not give me any satisfactory answer, you see. The leadership you have to accept. You cannot do anything independently. You have to accept. That is our constitutional position, that we have to follow somebody. Now you select whom you shall follow. If you are following the most perfect, then you become perfect. And if you are following less perfect or imperfect, then you are imperfect. This is our philosophy. You have to follow some leader. If your leader is perfect, then you are perfect. If your leader is not perfect, then you are also not perfect. Buddhist Monk (1): How is one to find out...? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Buddhist Monk (1): Yeah, that's a very important advantage, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So that is another thing. Our philosophy is: God is the most perfect. Otherwise He cannot be God. So you follow God; then you become perfect. So Kṛṣṇa is teaching personally. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God. And if we follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then we become perfect. Where is the difficulty? Simple thing. Buddhist Monk (1): What we say is... Prabhupāda: If you think that Kṛṣṇa's not perfect, somebody is perfect, then you follow him. Buddhist Monk (1): What we believe is that incomparable bliss and peace everlasting is the most perfect. Prabhupāda: That is... These are items. These are items. First of all you have to follow a perfect leader. Then whatever he says, that is perfect. So that peace, you have given a definition of peace. Kṛṣṇa is giving definition of peace: Haṁsadūta: Four hundred. Prabhupāda: Four hundred years ago the land was there. They, these Europeans, migrated there. Now they are proprietor. So four hundred years ago, who was the proprietor. In this way, trace history. The land is there, the ocean is there, everything is there. We sometimes claim that "I am the proprietor," "We are the proprietor," but this is lying there. Who is actually the proprietor? Actually proprietor is God, Kṛṣṇa. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything is owned by the supreme īśvara. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So if we study scrutinizingly, then we'll find God is the proprietor actually. He is the creator; *therefore He is the proprietor. And because He is the proprietor, He is friend of all. Actually. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Īśvara is situated in everyone's heart as Paramātmā, and He's giving us good counsel. We are not abiding by that. We are disobeying. Therefore we are suffering. Otherwise, He's giving us good counsel, good advice. So this formula, that bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām... [Bg. 5.29]. So if we accept God, or Kṛṣṇa, as the supreme friend, then whatever advice He'll give me, if we follow, then I am happy. There is no difficulty. He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If we do that, we become happy. Where is the difficulty? From historical point of view... Of course, no, I mean to say, religious literature is older than Bhagavad-gītā. It was spoken by the Supreme Lord personally five thousand years ago. And that old thing we are presenting as it is. Our Bhagavad-gītā is therefore named Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Without any interpretation. Without any addition, alteration. No, we don't make that. If we make addition, alteration, then where is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? We don't do that. And that is proving effective. Those who are taking according to the instruction, they're becoming happy. Practical. Without any consideration of time, country, people. Anyone is accepting, and he's becoming happy. And they are not expected to undergo very severe type of austerities. Neither prāṇāyāma or yoga. They are unable. Simply I have advised them, "With these beads chant Hare Kṛṣṇa sixteen rounds." They are chanting. It is very easy. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma... Sixteen rounds. It takes about two hours. And they're refraining from four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, gambling, intoxication, meat-eating. This much they are following austerities, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, taking prasādam. They are happy. Anyone can take. It is not difficult at all. Anyone. They are gṛhasthas. It is not that one has to become a sannyāsī. No. All my, these disciples... Here is a gṛhastha. Here is a sannyāsī. Here is a brahmacārī. So all together, they are serving the same purport. And we are getting good result. You have seen our Ratha-yātrā? Guest (1): We were with you. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): We were with you. (indistinct) ...at your feet while you were... Prabhupāda: Yes. So... Guest (1): It was a miracle... Prabhupāda: ...ten thousand participated. Guest (1): ...my wife, she was with you, Swami. Prabhupāda: Oh! I think, yes. Guest (1): For the first time in two years, she has walked two miles. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest (1): It was only because of Your Grace. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, it was three miles. Guest (1): And she has never walked even three hundred yards. Prabhupāda: I also, since I became sick, I was not walking. But that, I... Guest (1): No, it was a game for us, you know. Actually, we asked to make arrangements for us to follow you, sit in the van and then follow you. Prabhupāda: So you can distribute this prasāda, little bit. [break] Guest (1): Yes. It is grace of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, after all, Kṛṣṇa's property. But it has come through George... (laughter) Guest (1): He is lucky person. Prabhupāda: I am coming, yes. [break] ...dehaṁ punar janma naiti. Such person, those who are fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, such person, after giving up this body, does not accept any more material body. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. "He comes to Me." So you cannot go to Kṛṣṇa unless you have your spiritual body. Because the spiritual world and Kṛṣṇa, they are all spiritual. So you cannot enter into fire unless you are fire. So you have to revive your spiritual body, spiritual consciousness. Then, after giving up this body, you enter the spiritual world. So Lord Buddha did not speak anything about the spiritual world, but his philosophy said that "Dismantle this material existence." Nirvāṇa. Nobody has preached that "You become happy here," either Lord Buddha or Lord Christ or Kṛṣṇa or anybody, Śaṅkara. Nobody. But modern materialistic people, they are thinking that "We can become happy by adjustment of our material condition." That is not possible. Buddhist Monk (1): They want to have the cake and eat it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Buddhist Monk (1): They want to have the cake and eat it. They want to have two paradises, one here and one there also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): And they want to bite. Prabhupāda: No, they have no idea any other paradise than this paradise. They have no idea. Buddhist Monk (1): Which to us is the fools' paradise. *Prabhupāda: That... Again I am quoting that Professor Kotofsky. He said, "Swamiji, after this body there is no life." That is their conviction. This is the primary teaching of spiritual life, that we have got next life. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ. Dehāntaram. After giving up this body, you have to accept another body. This is the first lesson of spiritual education. But they do not understand the first lesson even. What is their spiritual understanding? Guest (1): It's only a question of time and your convenience. Prabhupāda: No, I am, I am for your service. Guest (2) (British man): Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Come again. Guest (2): Thank you very much. Guest (1): This is Bhakti. *Prabhupāda: Oh! Bhakti*-latā, very good. Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: That's nice. She is your eldest daughter? Guest (1): No, she's my sister. Prabhupāda: Sister. Oh, I see. Guest (1): She's getting married on this day. (Hindi for few sentences) *Guest (2): No, I can't remember. About thirty*-one as well. Prabhupāda: You often then really come here? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: This is first time you are coming? Guest (2): First time I've been here, yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is this, "K.C.C. Ghee"? Guest (1): Ghee. Śrutakīrti: Ghee. I don't know where it's from. Prabhupāda: K.C.C? Śrutakīrti: Nairobi, Kenya. It was made and packed by... Haṁsadūta: Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: That ghee, Nairobi, is very nice ghee. Śrutakīrti: Yes, very good. Prabhupāda: Australia also. Śrutakīrti: New Zealand. *Prabhupāda: This ghee*-producing animal, and they're killing. Just see how much injustice. They have no sense even. I exact from you all the resources, and then I kill you. What is this? Buddhist Monk (1): For no other reason but for greed again. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply... I have seen. I was telling that these people take meat, a small slice, not very much. But because they are taking, everyone, so many slaughterhouse are maintained. If they give up little, and we can replace it by other thing, then so many lives are saved. Swamiji, if you, your most philosophical thesis is ahiṁsā, you can teach them and that will help us also. Buddhist Monk (1): If they only want to use their minds. (Sanskrit or Pali:) Mano pugbanga ma dhamra mano sikta manomaya, manasarthe palitena vahasati va karoti va, thako mam sukham amreti cakra...(?) Prabhupāda: Mind. Buddhist Monk (1): Mind, right. If you can make people use their minds. *Prabhupāda: So therefore we are trying to engage the mind in Kṛṣṇa. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. Mind has to be engaged on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, and talk, only glorifying Kṛṣṇa. Then things will come out nice. Buddhist Monk (1): But many people are acting more on emotions and feelings than on their mind. (Sanskrit or Pali:) Mano manas mano is disappearing with many people except to make some money. *Prabhupāda: Every... Everything has two sides, black side and bright side. We are interested with the bright side. Black side we can point out, but anyone who is sincere, he'll take the bright side. Sajjano guṇam icchanti doṣam icchanti pāmaraḥ. There are guṇa and doṣa, fault and good qualities. So those who are sajjana, they take the good qualities, give up the bad qualities. Then there, gradually things will come out. But if we accept God, "God is all*-good," then all good qualities automatically manifest. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. All good qualities manifest. If you remain with the fire, you become warm. The quality is acquired. If you remain in the sunshine, you become warm. Because sun is warm. So you acquire the quality. So if we remain always with Kṛṣṇa, then we acquire the qualities of Kṛṣṇa. So God is all-good. Therefore I become good, by association with God. It is very simple reasoning. Yes. God is all-good. So if you remain always with God, then you become good. The same example: if you remain with fire, you become warm, the quality of the fire. If you remain in sunshine, you become warm. And the more you remain, the more you become warmer, warmer. Then become hot. Yes. Just like you put one rod, iron rod in the fire. It becomes warm, warmer, warmer. Then it will be red-hot. When it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Touch anywhere, it will burn. (pause) So from Nairobi they import ghee here, I think. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Brahmānanda Mahārāja was saying many fruits also get to England. He said in Africa they have many nice fruits, but you can't buy them in Africa. They ship them off to England. Although they're all grown there, you can't get nice fruit in Africa. Prabhupāda: Neither the Africans like to eat. Śrutakīrti: No. Prabhupāda: Yes, they don't. Yes. God has created different foodstuff for different living entities. Buddhist Monk (1): But they interpret that God created them also for their consumption. Prabhupāda: Eh? Buddhist Monk (1): They interpret that they have, the God has created the cattle also for their food. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is... The cattle food is food for the non*-civilized man. If you claim to be civilized, you cannot eat. Buddhist Monk (1): (laughs) Live and let live. That's what I have been asking people wherever I go. They talk of culture, civilization, progress, development, living standards, education, equality, freedom, lots of things. I asked them to define this, and I asked them, "The animals are of two types: the carnivorous and the vegetarian. Of course, the carnivorous looks even fiercer. But where has one found in the forest so many thousands of animals slaughtered and lying at random? But man today, in the name of progress and civilization..." Prabhupāda: Very, very good. Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): Yeah. So they have gone, according to me, lower than our animal brothers. Prabhupāda: Certainly, certainly. Your argument is very good. Buddhist Monk (1): Of course, it's very very... Prabhupāda: In the forest, there is no slaughterhouse, although they are carnivorous animals. Buddhist Monk (1): Is the only way. *Prabhupāda: So actually in India the meat*-eaters were always, but there was no slaughterhouse. The meat-eaters, they were allowed that "You can sacrifice one goat before the goddess Kālī and eat it." That means once in a month, restriction. And individual person... But no slaughterhouse. What is this nonsense, slaughterhouse? Big, big slaughterhouse. Trade with slaughterhouse. This is the... Even, even in India during Mohammedan period, there was no slaughterhouse. Individual, if he liked, he can kill one animal and eat. No slaughterhouse. Buddhist Monk (1): No mass slaughters, no mass slaughters. Prabhupāda: No. This is from the western world. This is very nice argument, that in the jungle there are carnivorous animals, but they don't maintain slaughterhouse. Neither they attack unless they are hungry. Otherwise, in Africa, there is national... Haṁsadūta: Park. Prabhupāda: All the animals are freely rotating. Buddhist Monk (1): Or they think their life is in danger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): If one radiates love and kindness... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Defense is allowed to everyone. You must defend. That is another thing. But ordinarily, not that because a lion has got jaws and teeth, therefore he's simply jumping over. Not like that. Even people have experienced that when the, these ferocious animals, they are not hungry, they don't attack. They don't attack. Haṁsadūta: They don't bother. Prabhupāda: No. Or if you keep a pet lion, give him sumptuously to eat, he'll not... That is experienced. I have seen in the World Fair in, in... One man was keeping a lion and a tiger, and playing just like with dog. Just like sometimes dogs, they pounce over the master. Same thing. They were doing like that. I have seen it. They have tamed the lion and tiger like that. Buddhist Monk (1): Even the carnivores could be trained to be vegetarians. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Buddhist Monk (1): They could easily be. It is only habit and custom. Prabhupāda: But their nature is to eat meat. You have to give him. That is different thing. But they can be tamed. But not very trustworthy. (laughter) Buddhist Monk (1): If they get a little irritated and hungry, they may go to gather. Prabhupāda: No, if you give them nice food, they'll never attack you. *Haṁsadūta: In the Bible also, in the very beginning page, there's a verse. After God created everything, the animals and the trees and everything, then He gave allotment of food to the human society. It says very plainly that "The seed*-bearing plants and trees of the earth shall be your meat, or shall be your food." Prabhupāda: Just see. Haṁsadūta: And it says nothing... Prabhupāda: Vegetables. Haṁsadūta: It says nothing about... Yes. Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, but later it goes to add something that "Meat is meat unto you." Yeah. There your difficulty comes in. Well, Isaiaḥ in the Bible, one of five prophets in the Bible, he says: "Peace will come on earth when even the feroci..." [break] May you have long, healthy life. Prabhupāda: What is your age? *Buddhist Monk (1): I am fifty*-nine years. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Buddhist Monk (1): (Sanskrit or Pali:) We say arogya parama labha santuṣṭi paramam dhanam, viśvasa parama narthi nirvāṇa parama sva*-dharma. (?) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Buddhists apparently leave) (end) *Room Conversation With David Lawrence -*-July 12, 1973, London Prabhupāda: Anybody else is coming? No. Somebody's coming? Devotee: There's supposed to be two gentlemen coming, coming some men coming, and... Devotee: School? He's coming from the school? Devotee: No. More boys will come. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: They were from the same... Those boys all came from the same school as those teachers. They're just up the road. They'll all come now. Prabhupāda: They are understanding our philosophy? Devotee: Very nicely, yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh! Devotee: They like. They had never come to the temple before. Just first time they came out. I said, "It is very difficult to understand." Prabhupāda: So Bhagavān dāsa has gone? Devotee: Yes, he went this morning. Devotee: Two gentlemen were supposed to come, but I think they were afraid. Prabhupāda: Afraid? Why? Devotee: Well, guru, they have to surrender to guru. They must surrender. So it's difficult sometimes for them to come. Prabhupāda: But it is compulsory? (laughter) They can come. It is not the question of surrender. [break] *David Lawrence: (reading from report) "...used to be involved heavily with that. The booklet itself is to be produced in color, black and white by means of one of the most modern printing systems in the world, and the colorplates should be of very good quality." You know, I was thinking about the beautiful pictures of the Bhagavad... [Break] ...really produce those. "It's hoped to market the thirty*-page booklets for about thirty pence. The publisher, Marshall's Educational, is a long established publishing house which is Marshall, Morgan and Scott, specialized in theological and devotional books. They are now turning their attention to the production of much-needed religious education books. Financial basis of the series: David Lawrence has undertaken the commission with the agreement that they must be produced as cheaply as possible. The author receives no expenses and is receiving payment on the lowest rate of royalty only." So it means I've just about covered my expenses. "The purpose of the series of booklets: to offer the opportunity for students to see the spiritual way as relevant today, 2.) to show how God loves and how we should respond with devotion, 3.) to produce a booklet so cheaply that it will easily be available in schools and to any other interested inquirers, to the latter by means of national outlets such as W.H. Smith." They're an enormous chain of booksellers throughout the country. "4.) to allow each movement to speak for itself so that at every point the representatives will feel that they themselves are behind the booklet. This will give the youngsters full opportunity to make up their own minds as to the bona fide nature or not of a devotional organization." Your specific booklet. "An essential part of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness booklet and a revolutionary concept in religious education publishing will be the production of the teacher's pack. The aims of producing this pack are 1.) to arm the normally conservative R.E. teacher with such a battery of audio-visual aids that he will feel fully dressed to embark upon a series of lessons on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, 2.) to give the teacher..." (pause, people coming in or out of room) Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. *David Lawrence: "2.) to give the teacher all the information," uh, where were we, "he or she may need to find out more than the booklet can include, for example, to satisfy the really interested inquirer, 3.) by a total sense experience, the cultural gap, which may unnecessarily alienate the students and therefore hamper a worthwhile consideration of the movement, 4.) by offering a wide variety of approaches, the student will not feel that he is simply studying another textbook, 5.) a booklet on Kṛṣṇa consciousness without the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra in a living form would be an absurdity, so the contents of the teacher's pack: A.) the forty-five r.p.m. record of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, B.) a glossy poster of Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa, C.) a map of the devotional centers of Kṛṣṇa, D.) a list of additional films, filmstrips and records likely to help the student, both from the center and from elsewhere, E.) sample literature from the organization, e.g. Back to Godhead, F.) a pack of Spiritual Sky incense, G.) a filmstrip,"*-the enclosure of the filmstrip depends on the costing; *R.E. departments are always very poor in this country-"H.) recipes and notes on the meaning of ārati, I.) several sheets of objections to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the rebuttals of these objections, J.) suggestions for the teaching of the subject." Then I've gone on to say a little bit about the structure of the booklet. "Hopefully, the first section would establish the claims of the relevance of the spiritual life in 1973, and then the claims of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to be the true pathway to the eternal. This we would like to do by means of holding up a respected example of somebody who is already walking the path, e.g. an ideal way would be by the examination of the beliefs of George Harrison, and more especially of those expounded on living in the material world." Then go on to the history of the movement: "Lord Caitanya, Śrī Sarasvatī,..." apologies for the way I pronounce the names, "Śrī Prabhupāda's commission to the western world, the growth of ISKCON, the establishment of the London center," you know, to bring it locally, if you like, then on to "a typical devotee, his day..." This, I've said, will help to personalize the whole idea, you know. They can relate to the person concerned with this. Then "a section on the sacred scriptures of the Vedas, a background, and then quotations of frequently used texts. Then onto the beliefs of the devotees, based mainly upon the eight principles of ISKCON, and the Introduction of the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is." Our hopes are to, you know, work very hard from that section because it's, that introduction has got everything. I've been working on it a week, and I think, uh, I've gone back over... *Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad*-gītā? David Lawrence: Oh, yes. I've gone back over it about forty times now already. So I think I'm beginning to get hold of it. And then there would be lastly a reference section which would include all addresses that they would find useful, a glossary of the terms used, and an index, etc. Prabhupāda: Very good. This... David Lawrence: That... Prabhupāda: ...synopsis is very nice. David Lawrence: You like the idea, do you? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, very nice. David Lawrence: The thing that I felt strongly about really was the teacher's pack. You see, in this country, being an R.E. teacher of long standing, there is so little that really communicates an experience, and I think the teacher's pack can help, through the senses, for these young people to experience something, you know, so that, perhaps, if they feel alienated... *Prabhupāda: We have, we have got a verse in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a devotee when he was only five years old. And his father was atheist number one. So there was a great misunderstanding between the father and the son. The father was insisting the son that "You give up this line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You become politician. You have to control over the kingdom and so on, so on..." But he could not give up. This is the misunderstanding between the father and the... So at, at the age of five years only, he was preaching. But how he was preaching? He was preaching... Because the father instructed the teachers, "Just look over this boy that he may not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Strictly. That is my order." So teachers were not allowing him. But he was taking opportunity in their tiffin hour. Śyāmasundara: What? Prabhupāda: Tiffin hour. Śyāmasundara: Tiffin hour. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is... Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Recess. When the teachers gone and students are free to move. So he was calling his class friends and other, and he was preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: Tiffin hour. Prabhupāda: So... We call "tiffin hour" in India. Because we, we take some tiffin in the school, and we eat during that... David Lawrence: Hm hm. Prabhupāda: So he was preaching that kaumāra ācare... The other boys, they were insisting, "Prahlāda, why you are so much anxious about preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us play. It is our time to play." So "No, no." He said, "No, no. This is the time to learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Because you are teaching, therefore... David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...I am relating. "That kaumāra age, from five years to fifteen years, that is the right age for educating Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This is the word of... kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma [SB 7.6.1]. He says that "This human form of body is very rarely gotten, and it is a rare opportunity for awakening our Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, is there in every human being, especially in civilized... So it is not an artificial thing. Just like my, all my students, they are Europeans, Americans. Four or five years ago, they did not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, neither they knew the name of Kṛṣṇa. But now you can see how they're absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is not an artificial thing. David Lawrence: No. *Prabhupāda: If it, had it been an artificial, they would not have been so serious, but it is a dormant consciousness. I have simply awakened. I have awakened. Otherwise... That is the statement in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, that everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Some way or other, it is now snuffed out. They have forgotten. But if an opportunity is given, then it can be awakened. So this movement is giving opportunity to arouse that dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness which is already there in everyone. So if you take that process and allow this Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the students, oh, it will be great service to the humanity. As a teacher, you will give the greatest service. David Lawrence: Yes, I agree. Prabhupāda: Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. And this is the only opportunity of awakening our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if we do not give that opportunity to the human beings from the childhood, it is a jealous... Jealousy means that you have got some opportunity, but if I do not allow you to take that opportunity, this is called jealous. So every human being has got the potency of awakening his God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in this human form of body. So if we do not give that opportunity, it is jealousy. Therefore students must be educated, and if you're writing such nice book, I think you will get, give a great service to your nation and to the human society in England. Because durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma, this human form of life... Unfortunately, people do not understand what is the distinction between this human form of life and animal form of life. That is another... David Lawrence: They offer nothing, is it, in the material world. Prabhupāda: So you give... Yes. That is the... The only difference is that in human form of life you can awaken your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the animal form... Here we are sitting with all human form of life, gentlemen, civilized men. I cannot call cats and dogs and sit here, and to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. Therefore this opportunity should be given. This opportunity should be given. And especially, you are English nation, recognized, great nation, respectful, you are respected... Especially in India, we have got very good respect for English nation. We had connection for so many years. And the politicians, they spoiled. Otherwise, the, I, we liked the British Empire, means unity of the human being all over the world. That can be revived again. That can be revived again. If you come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, your Queen comes to that,... There is process. There is process. You can revive your British Empire. It is not story. If you people take little advice from me, I can help you. Yes. You are intelligent nation. So kindly do this service to the students and awaken their dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be a great service. And we are meant for helping you all. So you can inquire. You are at liberty to come at any time and inquire. David Lawrence: You give an audience. Prabhupāda: You question. David Lawrence: We're working predominantly with the older age group, of course. And, uh... Fourteen, fifteens. Prabhupāda: But first thing is, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is based directly on the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is nothing but to accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction as it is. That is the... David Lawrence: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there. It is open to everyone. It is not only open to us. Everyone. Bhagavad*-gītā. It is widely-read literature in the world. But unfortunately, they have been misinterpreted. *David Lawrence: It was very interesting to read one of the very western versions, that of Professor Zeiner of Oxford. And on one or two points of contention between yourself and other translators of the Bhagavad*-gītā, in fact, he, nearly always, went with you. Now, he's reckoned to be one of the foremost western Sanskrit scholars. And he every time emphasized the devotional tone of your translation. Nearly every time. I was very impressed by that. Śyāmasundara: We talked with Professor Zeiner (Zayner?), and he may come. He's trying... He's going to see... *Prabhupāda: That is only interpretation. Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna. He is plainly speaking that "I am speaking to you this Bhagavad*-gītā because You are My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam [Bg. 4.3]. So first condition to understand Bhagavad-gītā is to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So in the Bhagavad-gītā, the only talk is about devotion. There is no other talk. There are other talks, but they are subordinate. They are not principal talks. The principal talk is to understand Kṛṣṇa through bhakti-yoga. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. You understand Sanskrit? You...? David Lawrence: Yes, yes, I'm there. *Prabhupāda: So if He says, "One can understand Me only through bhakti,"... He has spoken about jñāna, karma, yoga, everything, but if anyone wants to know Kṛṣṇa, then He says, it is His direct order, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Tattvataḥ, "In truth, what I am, if anyone wants to know, that can be known through bhakti*-yoga. No other method." *David Lawrence: I was very interested this last week to be reading a book which really was trying to defend orthodox Christianity, and it was by a very devotional Christian writer, and he, in fact, was making exactly the same points as yourself about the God consciousness of Jesus. I read the Ratha*-yātrā magazine, and saw how, I think it was a nun that asked you about the position of Jesus on this, and you quite rightly said, "Well, of course, Jesus never claimed to be God." I do wish that some Christians would realize that. He was God conscious, wasn't he? Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: The churches in this land seem to have forgotten that. He never claimed to be God. *Prabhupāda: No, how he could claim? He's a devotee of God, he's servant of God. How he can claim? Of course, there is no difference between God and His servant. Yes. That we say. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata... **. Because a devotee, like Lord Jesus Christ, means confidential servant of God, there is no difference between God and himself. Just like any political representative or business representative, he's, if he's a confidential representative, there is no difference between the king or the proprietor of the firm, so long he represents rightly. Similarly, anyone who represents God or the cause of God, he's not different from God. We should offer respect to such person exactly like God. That is our instruction of the ācāryas. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **. In every śāstra the spiritual master is recognized as personally the Supreme Lord. But in... Why he is recognized? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he's the most dear servant of the Lord. And that is natural. Suppose some representative of some firm comes, and if I know that he is the most confidential representative, I must respect him very nicely so that he may be impressed and he may report, "These people are very nice." (laughter) Oh. So this is the ordinary etiquette, what to speak of the actual representative of God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **. Uktaḥ means "it is already said." Tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. Those who are advanced in devotional service, they accept this principle. But why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he is the most confidential servant, representative. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. This is, we pray, offer our prayers to our spiritual master. So it is very nice. You are attempting. I am very glad. So you can inquire from me anything. The first thing I shall request you, the first principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or the first ABCD of spiritual education, is to understand the constitutional position of the living entity. He is, he is spirit soul. He's not this body. The spirit soul is living within this body, but the, the body's not the spirit soul. This thing must be understood very clearly. You know, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Dehinaḥ, the proprietor of the body, is within this body. Dehinaḥ asmin dehe yathā. And the body is changing, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. So when this body will be useless, we will take another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This first education of spiritual life should be understood first. Then one can make progress. Then one can understand what is the constitution of God, what is our relationship with Him. But if, so long we shall remain under the bodily concept of life, this subject matter will remain difficult. *David Lawrence: Hm. There's one matter that I'd love to ask you about which is I found personally difficulty because perhaps I haven't had the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is as long as I should have done, is to really feel that I've got to grips with the idea of the spiritual sky. I couldn't quite understand there was any form, any form at all of symbolism coming into the idea of the various stages of planets and so on, or whether, in fact, this was a very physical... *Prabhupāda: Bring Bhagavad*-gītā. Śyāmasundara: Here. Prabhupāda: Find out this verse: paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo... [Bg. 8.20]. Why not call Paṇḍita Mahāśaya? (Pradyumna) David Lawrence: Paras tasmāt...? Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita Mahāśaya. Śrutakīrti: Can you get Pradyumna? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got nice index in this book. David Lawrence: Yes, indeed. Prabhupāda: You can find out any verse. Paraḥ tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: Translation? Śrutakīrti: "Yet there is another nature which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: So that is spiritual world. This material world is created. The spiritual world is not created; it is eternal. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we have given an idea of the picture. Haṁsadūta: He's coming. Prabhupāda: So there is another nature, which is called spiritual nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Paraḥ. That is also admitted by all the ācāryas. Just (like) Śaṅkarācārya... You have heard the name of Śaṅkarācārya? *David Lawrence: Hm*-hm. Prabhupāda: He also says, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt. Nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ. So there is paraḥ. Paraḥ means superior. Nārāyaṇa belongs to that superior nature. That means spiritual nature. Yes. *David Lawrence: This is a knowing habit of the western mind, you know, to think in spatial terms, and it's possibly hang*-ups from Christian theology, in a sense, that I wanted to persist with this questioning even further about, you know, the real nature, as far as the Bhagavad-gītā gives it to us. Prabhupāda: No, you have to become little free from the biased ideas of Christian philosophy. David Lawrence: This is what I thought, yes. This is what I thought. Prabhupāda: Otherwise you cannot make progress. David Lawrence: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is impossible. David Lawrence: Yes. It's humility... Prabhupāda: You have to come to the platform of general, common sense. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: If you become biased, then it will be impossible. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you cannot make progress. You have to come to the platform... Now, the common sense is that can you distinguish between matter and spirit? Can you distinguish? David Lawrence: In what, in what respect? Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that the distinction between matter and spirit: the spirit is the vital force... David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...or you call spirit soul or ātmā. That you can distinguish. As soon as the vital force is off from this body, this body is a lump of matter. Therefore even if you do not know the spirit soul, any sane man can guess that something is missing in this body. Therefore this body is called dead. Now, that something is described definitely, is soul. So we can distinguish between the spirit and soul, some way or other. So as there is material world, there must be some spiritual world. Otherwise how the spirit is there? The spirit is there, the soul is there. That is spiritual. So two things we are experiencing: spirit and matter. So as we are experiencing this material world, so similarly there must be a spiritual world. There must be a spiritual world. Otherwise wherefrom the spirit comes? David Lawrence: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Now, this spirit is eternal. That is the first understanding. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. This spirit is occupying a material body at the present moment. And the next, when this... Just like I am in this apartment. If I find some inconvenience, I go to another apartment. Or the lease is expired, I have to leave it. Some way or other, I change. Similarly, the... You can change your coat. So these are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. Ex..., very nicely exemplified. So we are changing this apartment or dress and accepting another. This is going on. This is the material world. But I, the spirit soul, eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Find out this verse. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. Second Chapter. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you can introduce, study some Bhagavad-gītā among the students, oh, it will, it will be a great service. David Lawrence: I think it would be a great deal more popular than studies of the Bible. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: Because there isn't the (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, there is psychology. There is philosophy. David Lawrence: Yes, indeed. Prabhupāda: Everything is there. And religion without philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. Two things must be combined. David Lawrence: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavad*-gītā. Yes. Śrutakīrti: "For the soul there is never birth or death"? Prabhupāda: Hm? First of all find out the verse. Śrutakīrti: Na jāyate... Prabhupāda: Read it. Read it. Śrutakīrti: Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin. Prabhupāda: Let him. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes. Now read the meaning, translation. Pradyumna: "For the soul there is never birth nor death..." Prabhupāda: This, this is the nature of the soul. *Pradyumna: "Nor having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Prabhupāda: This thing first of all must be understood, immortality of the soul, transmigration of the soul. Then other things will be easier. And because this is eternal, therefore there is another spiritual world which is also the same nature, eternal. That is explained. What is that verse? Find out. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo...sarveṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati [Bg. 8.20]. The spiritual world existing eternally. This material world being annihilated, dissolved, that is not dissolved. Exactly like this body being annihilated, the soul is not annihilated. Similarly, the material world, it is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It takes place at a certain date, and it is annihilated at a certain... Exactly like this body. Anything material. It has got a date of creation, and it has got a date of annihilation. But as the spirit soul is not annihilated even after the annihilation of the body, similarly there is another spiritual world which is never annihilated even after annihilation of this material world. Hm. What is that? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Sarveṣu bhūteṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati. What is the meaning? Pradyumna: "Yet there is another nature which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Prabhupāda: This matter which you are seeing, this is manifested. But there is material stock, unmanifested. A stock of water, stock of fire, stock of earth. Layer. This universe is covered by different layers, and each layer is ten times bigger than the other layers. That is unmanifested. That is unmanifested. Therefore vyakto 'vyaktāt. This, what we see, this is manifested, but the stock... Just like from the stock of your, I mean to say, stone and lime and cement and brick, you make a skyscraper building, manifested. But the stock is also there. Stock is also there. Similarly this manifested material world is there. It is taken from the stock. The stock is, a huge stock there is. We get information. Layer, the universe. And penetrating all these layers, we have to go to the spiritual world. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata there is that Kṛṣṇa took Arjuna, His friend, penetrating the layers to the spiritual world. He, He took him. You have read that in the *Kṛṣṇa Book*? There is... You have read? David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: He could take. So Arjuna was fortunate to go in this body, to go to the spiritual world and see it and come back again. David Lawrence: One other thing that interested me was the idea that Arjuna was in some way ... Prabhupāda: Friend. *David Lawrence: ...deliberately, if you like, deliberately misguided, planned almost to be misguided in the Bhagavad*-gītā. How, how is this work, like...? Prabhupāda: If he does not be... He was purposefully misguided so that he could put question like a misguided man... David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...and the right answer may come from Kṛṣṇa. It is for our benefit. He's not misguided. David Lawrence: No. Prabhupāda: But he played the part of misguided. David Lawrence: Yes. What we would say and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a person is playing in the stage as a fool, but he may be very educated man. So... But for the dramatic expression of talks, he might play as a fool. Similarly Arjuna's position is... How...? He cannot be misguided; he's personal friend of Kṛṣṇa. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: He cannot be misguided. David Lawrence: But it was for our benefit. Prabhupāda: But... And nobody can talk with Kṛṣṇa also. Nobody is so qualified. So somebody who would talk with Kṛṣṇa who must be very qualified, but he's playing the part of a befooled man. Otherwise, he's not misguided. He knows everything. Yes. David Lawrence: One other point, and again a practical point really, this one. This is about the nature of the book. I suggested early on that I hoped that I might get the cooperation of somebody like George Harrison. What would you think about this? Do you think, with your knowledge of the young mind, particularly the young western mind, that this might be a good means through to the young people...? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of western mind, eastern mind. Any sincere student will take to. David Lawrence: No, I was thinking in terms of the western mind with its culture, more than of philosophy. Prabhupāda: Hm. Western mind... I, I do not find any difference between western mind and eastern mind. Because so many western mind is changed. Yes. So there was no difficulty. Two, two plus two equal to four is to be understood by the western mind and the eastern mind. You cannot say, because you are western mind, you'll say, "No, two plus two equal to five." You cannot say that. So there may be some influence of the culture, but that is superficial. When you speak the real truth, science, that is equally applicable to the western mind and eastern mind. There is no difference. If you speak the real truth... Two plus two equal to four, mathematical calculation, nobody will deny, either western mind or eastern mind. Yes. So he must be reasonable. That's all. David Lawrence: Yes. That's it. Prabhupāda: So we expect every human being, rational... Eastern, western, there is no difference. David Lawrence: As you see from my plans, really what we hoped to do was to, if there was any cultural difference, to some extent eliminate that cultural difference. Prabhupāda: Then the first thing is therefore you have to understand that "I am not this body." The cultural difference is on account of this bodily conception of life. David Lawrence: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: But if we transcend the position of our bodily concept of life, we come to the spiritual platform. So there is no difference. David Lawrence: The difference is irrelevant then. *Prabhupāda: No. There is no difference. Just like we are talking. You have got a coat. I have no coat. That does not make any difference. We are talking as gentlemen. That's all. The last time when I was in Calcutta I was invited by the Indo*-American Cultural Society, and they gave me the subject matter: "East and West." So I talked, "We don't find any such distinction, 'East and West,' when we come to the spiritual platform. This is all material platform." David Lawrence: We find when we're teaching, you know, really secular youngsters that it's terribly difficult to get off this cultural veneer, you know. Prabhupāda: Therefore one has to understand first that "I am not this body." David Lawrence: That's it. And you've got to believe... The teacher... This is the big thing, isn't it? The teacher has got to be God conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: So he believes that there is the God conscious experience. *Prabhupāda: He must realize that he's not this body. He is different from body. But I am encaged now in this body under certain condition. So at least this... This is called jñāna. Jñāna. So long one is in the bodily concept of life, he is affected with so many things. So many things. So this bhakti*-yoga begins when one is purified from the bodily concept of life. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Now, these boys, they are coming from different nations. But they never think that one is Englishman, another is American, another is Indian, another is African. No, we don't think like that. David Lawrence: No. Prabhupāda: At least, we have surpassed that stage. If we have not advanced in any other way, (laughter) at least we have advanced in this respect. We don't consider on the bodily concept of life. What do you think? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is our qualification. Yes. David Lawrence: Unfortunately, as we find, the youngsters that, certainly that I teach, have got such materialistic views of their... Prabhupāda: If you keep the students as English boys or American boys, then it will be difficult. Then the, the cultural question will come up. *David Lawrence: Yes, yes. We try to bring in as much... In fact, now we have a new course... This is the sort of thing that's happening. [Break] ...the Jewish*-Christian scriptures which do not, you know, just don't lend themselves in any way to the right sort of feelings being created and the right sort of experience being created. We found that this year's course-it's the first year-has been tremendously helpful. We brought the boys... I can't think anybody was here, but we brought the boys up to the London temple, and... Prabhupāda: Here? David Lawrence: Yes. Well, no, in the Bury Place. And they were thrilled to bits. We had one or two who made the usual silly comments, you know, which you'd expect. But they were embarrassed, you know. Everything that came over, which was interesting, was that they found that all the devotees were very kind, very loving and very sincere. This, this came from even really the most secular of boys with a very, very low intelligence. He could see and perceive and understand that this was how it was. Prabhupāda: That is our general certificate, everywhere. Even the Americans, they are surprised. They inquire, "Are you Americans?" (laughter.) David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: The, the priest also, he's surprised, that "They are our boys. They did not come to church, never cared for religion. And now they are after God, mad after God. What is this?" They are surprised. David Lawrence: Well, I think a lot of our boys could understand it, having been to a service, you know, attended ārati, and they... Prabhupāda: So that is, that is due to our strict following the principles. That is making them stout and strong in spiritual platform. David Lawrence: Yes. This is surely it, that so much, so many other movements, as such, and sectarian groups have compromised so much, haven't they? They, they... If one goes past the average English church which is these boys' experience of religion, they pass the biggest cars in the neighborhood on a Sunday morning. This is, this is what they see. And, of course, when they came to the temple, they found people living out a lifestyle, which, even though was so totally alien from their own, they could feel that it was worthwhile. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: It was tremendous. In fact, one boy we found listening to the George Harrison record. You can tell George this if you like. He was listening to the record quietly in the music room that we have at our school with the big speakers, you know. Lots of noise. And he was reading these words. And he put the words down. And I was watching him... Prabhupāda: "I am in material world." David Lawrence: Yes. "Living in the material world." Prabhupāda: That is a very nice song. David Lawrence: And he sat there, and he was praying. And I didn't interfere. And he came out of the room after having turned the record player off. I said, "Well, you know, what were you doing in there?" And he said, "This, this record has been a complete experience to me." And that, if George could know that... It was tremendous, really tremendous to see this happening. George's record is so devotional, you know. It's really beautiful. Prabhupāda: I talked with him about this material world in his house... When? Śyāmasundara: Oh, it was last August, I think. Or July. Prabhupāda: Last... I went to his house at Henley on the Thames. David Lawrence: Henlent (?). Prabhupāda: He's a nice boy, very nice boy. His wife is also very nice. Patty? David Lawrence: Patty, yes. Prabhupāda: She's also devotee. David Lawrence: Pass that on, please, to George. He should be very excited, I think, about that. This is very good. I'd like to thank you very much for giving of your time. Prabhupāda: You are welcome because you are sincere student searching after... I am prepared to help you any time. David Lawrence: I do hope that anything I produce will... Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: ..., you know, very adequately represent the movement. I'm going to give it to... Prabhupāda: Your, these students, they'll be benefited if you... David Lawrence: I think so. Prabhupāda: They will benefit. Yes, actually. David Lawrence: I hope so. Prabhupāda: And it is the duty of the guardians to see that the children are actually spiritually benefited. There is a verse... Pitā na sa syāt gurur na sa syāt. You have got Bhāgavata? Pradyumna: It's upstairs. *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata? Find out that. Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. How it is instructed. If you introduce these literatures in the schools for study*-because you are religious teacher-oḥ, it will play... David Lawrence: I think so. And, you know, we hope to... Prabhupāda: ...revolution in the spiritual ideas. David Lawrence: We hope to produce it so cheaply that schools will buy it readily. You know. Almost be, well, you know, not free, but handed out... Prabhupāda: No, we can give you paperback, cheap edition. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We can... If you... We can... A very cheap edition. Or we'll print here, cheap. David Lawrence: The Kṛṣṇa Books? Kṛṣṇa Books? Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: I have an order that I have to get to on those... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa Books? David Lawrence: Yes. Some of my boys saw my copy, and they were reading it and er... Śyāmasundara: How old are they? *David Lawrence: These are fourteen*-year-olds, these ones. Śyāmasundara: Fourteen. Prabhupāda: Hm. And here is a verse, the guidance to the guardians: pitā na sa syāt... What is? Gurur na sa syāt. Pradyumna: (Flipping pages) Is it, is that in Fifth Canto. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Samupeta*-mṛtyum. So the idea is one should not become spiritual master. Gurur na sa syāt. Then? *Pradyumna: Sva*-jano na sa syāt. *Prabhupāda: One should not become his kinsman. This is negative side, going on. One should not become a spiritual master, one should not pose himself as kinsman... Gurur na sa syāt sva*-jano na sa syāt. Then? Pradyumna: Pitā na sa syāt. Prabhupāda: One should not become a father. And pitā na sa syāt, jananī na sā syāt. One should not claim to become mother. Then? Pradyumna: Daivaṁ na tat syān. Prabhupāda: One should not... Because somebody worships some forms of God. So that gods should also not be worshiped. Then? Go on. Pradyumna: Na pitaś ca sa syān. Prabhupāda: Na pitā? Pradyumna: Oh, na patiś ca sa syān. *Prabhupāda: Ah, na patiḥ. And one should not become husband also. Because husband is supposed to be instructor to the wife. Husband is the guardian of the wife. So he's responsible for her spiritual advancement. As much as the father is responsible for the spiritual advancement of his child, the spiritual master is responsible... Anyone who is claiming to be superior, he should be responsible for the inferior's spiritual advancement of life. So the conclusion is that they should not claim to become such and such unless they are able to save the subordinate from the imminent danger of death. Because death is there so long one is not spiritually advanced. As soon as one is spiritually advanced, he goes to the spiritual world, transferred. Mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25]. Spiritually advancement means to be transferred to the spiritual world. So this is the main business of the father, of the husband, of the spiritual master, of the king, of the guardian, of kinsmen. Everyone should be alert: "Whether I am helping my subordinate in the spiritual advancement of life." Because that will save him from the repetition of birth and death. And otherwise, what benefit you can do? If he's under the laws of karma, if he's going to become a cat or dog in next life, what help you have given to him? If he's under the laws of karma, then your help is no use. Your help is no use. David Lawrence: It's a tremendous responsibility. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tremendous responsibility. So everyone should be responsible to save his subordinate from the laws of karma. So laws of karma can be broken. Karmāṇi nirdahati ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. One who has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, bhakti, devo..., bhakti-yoga, he's no longer under the laws of karma. And that is also... Take Bhagavad-gītā. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Simply by devotion. Anyone who is always engaged in devotional service, he's not in this material platform. He's in the spiritual platform. This is the technique. You remain always Kṛṣṇa conscious; *you are no longer living in the material world. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. David Lawrence: I was so overawed when I came in that I didn't put this on. (About tape recorder) Prabhupāda: Hm? David Lawrence: I was so overawed when I came in that I didn't put the... Śyāmasundara: You can get a copy. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? David Lawrence: Can I get a copy from you? Prabhupāda: Yes. You can, you can stop this and... [break] ...material energy. Then we do some service. David Lawrence: Indeed. I say this to some of my teaching colleagues who say, "You'll never achieve anything in teaching." And I say, "If it is one person, the job has been done." Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: "Because the service has been rendered." Prabhupāda: They do not know how much they are suffering in this material condition of life. So if somebody is saved, then it is a great service. What is, what is your name? David Lawrence: David Lawrence. Prabhupāda: David Lawrence. He was also David, that sculptor? Śyāmasundara: David Wynne. David Lawrence: There's another David over there as well, who's come here. That is David. Śyāmasundara: You can come again anytime you like. After four, any evening you can come. Prabhupāda: Have you, have you got any knife? Give me. (pause) So you are living in this village? David Lawrence: London, you mean? Prabhupāda: You live (in) London. David Lawrence: No, I'm just here for the evening in fact. I'll be taken back this evening, hopefully, to London. I live on the shores of the English Ganges, you know, the Thames. (laughter) No, it's very difficult by transport at night. And I haven't got a car, you see. Śyāmasundara: No, we'll take you back. Don't worry. David Lawrence: It's always a thing... Prabhupāda: There is no subway? David Lawrence: Sometimes it runs. Prabhupāda: Oh, (laughs) sometimes? David Lawrence: The subway's all right. It's the main line that I have to get, going back, you see. Prabhupāda: Oh. David Lawrence: This is the problem. If one is at late at night, it's difficult. Śyāmasundara: No, we'll take you. David Lawrence: That's great. (pause, Prabhupāda hums) (talking about fruit:) Prabhupāda: How to cut it? Śyāmasundara: Pull, pull the two hard... David Lawrence: Wise man. Hand it on. It's always the stones that are the problem. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Clings. David Lawrence: The carpet is going to be sticking people to it. Śyāmasundara: It's really stuck on there. David Lawrence: Yes, try four also. That's it. It's a wonder that technology... I suppose technology has produced a machine that does it. Prabhupāda: Hm. The technology is here in the teeth. (laughter) God has given. Śyāmasundara: Yes. You'll have to eat the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to eat. That is the technology. David Lawrence: Perhaps a parrot's beak would be a very good thing to grow. Prabhupāda: So give them this... You use your technology. David Lawrence: Thank you. You know, I think that later on it may well happen, you know. (eating) Our boys don't eat meat, anyway. They eat baked beans the whole time. We have a generation in our country who could eat virtually anything, but they insist on sugar drinks and baked beans. Have you come across these strange English things? Baked beans? Most peculiar. Prabhupāda: Baked beans? Śyāmasundara: Baked beans. Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: Beans... David Lawrence: Haricot beans, put them in a tomato sauce. David Lawrence: Haricot beans. Śyāmasundara: In the oven. David Lawrence: This is one of the English spiritual journeys. You know, they believe this is one of the greatest things to do, don't they. Prabhupāda: Sometimes invite them all and give them prasādam. Nice boys. Śyāmasundara: Have them all out here, yeah. [break] Prabhupāda: You just work little, produce your food, eat, and save time, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the nature's arrangement. Anywhere, any part of the world, you can produce your food. Simply you require a little land and some cows. Everything is complete. You take milk from the cows and just till the field and get some food grains. That is sufficient. Whole economic question solved. And save time for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the arrangement. David Lawrence: It was interesting to see a recent television program in this country... Prabhupāda: Yes. *David Lawrence: ...on farming, and it was talking about the so*-called modern methods of farming which have destroyed the earth in this country, really, in great areas. And it showed an Englishman and his son who believe in the old methods with cows on the land. And he is not only doing better economically, but he was so happy, the two men were so happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: They were just working with nature, not against nature. Prabhupāda: Just like so much field is there. You, if you take the all village people, you can produce enough food for them in this village. So much land is lying there. Simply you keep cows and till ground, get your food grains. Enough. And if you take the whole planet as it is, you can feed ten times population. There is so much prospect. Australia, Africa. So much vacant land. You can produce enough quantity of milk and food grains. David Lawrence: Yes, I think this was the clinching argument in this program... Prabhupāda: But they are doing... What they are doing? They're taking the milk and slaughtering the animals and sending to foreign countries for trade. New Zealand, Australia, they are doing like that. Just see. David Lawrence: Or they're throwing down the surplus milk down coal mines. Prabhupāda: Eh? David Lawrence: They throw surplus milk down coal mines. Prabhupāda: That's it. David Lawrence: When there are people without any... Prabhupāda: How they are wasting! You see? And they're putting the overstocked grain into the sea. America. David Lawrence: Dumping tomatoes, bananas, all these things. Prabhupāda: What kind of civilization? And producing Nixon on the head. (laughter.) Just see. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: And they want to be happy. This is their position. David Lawrence: They'll give... Prabhupāda: The head of the administration is Nixon, and the activities is killing and throwing the grains in the sea. And they are civilized. Just see. Where is civilization? They have no common sense even. David Lawrence: The thing is the economic system now runs the heart. The heart is not allowed to beat in the right way. It's completely controlled. *Prabhupāda: It is a soul*-killing civilization. We have to fight against it, to save at least a few men. So you are thoughtful young man. You try to understand this philosophy, and you try to spread. You have got good field for teaching students. David Lawrence: I feel that students need to be able to see that somebody who is God conscious can really, really enjoy life. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Certainly. That is life. This is not life. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Life means with high qualities. So one who is not God conscious, they cannot have any good qualities. It is not possible. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. He's simply hovering on the mental plane. Asati dhāvato bahiḥ. And he has to come to these non-permanent things, material things. Asati. Asati mā sad gama. The Vedic injunction is, "Don't stick to this asat. Try to come to the sat, eternal." Tamasi mā jyotir gama. These are the... "Don't remain in the darkness. Come to the light." David Lawrence: That was one track on George's record which really, really got through to our boys, I think. "Light, is it? Light of the World." Śyāmasundara: "Light, there is, Light of the World." (?) David Lawrence: Really... Prabhupāda: So his record has become very successful. Śyāmasundara: Number one everywhere. In America. Prabhupāda: Now, even they are appreciating. David Lawrence: Very successful even with one boy, you see. That's success, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: He likes to hear it. Prabhupāda: "I am in material world." *Śyāmasundara: We get letters from all over the world addressed to George Harrison care of Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple London. (laughter) From Poland, from behind the Iron Curtain even. Russia, China, every place, they send. *Prabhupāda: And he has mentioned my Bhagavad*-gītā in my name also. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the in...? What is that? Śyāmasundara: In the insert, in the record insert. *David Lawrence: Yes. In fact, when they picked up my copy of the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, which was on my desk, two or three boys immediately said, "Ah, that's on the George Harrison L.P." Prabhupāda: He has very intelligently connected. David Lawrence: Yes, yes. It was there. Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement with his... Śyāmasundara: He doesn't want to do it overtly because they will think he is crazy. So he's doing gradually. David Lawrence: Very gradually. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what is that song, "I am not the same..."? Śyāmasundara: Something. "I'm not the same..." Prabhupāda: "I have changed." David Lawrence: Oh yes. "I've changed." Śyāmasundara: "Somehow I'm..." David Lawrence: "Somehow I've changed." Śyāmasundara: Yes. "My friends all criticize me for the change, but I don't care." Prabhupāda: But he's not loser. He's gainer. (laughter) He's gainer. That he can understand. And he's determined. He says, "Even if I am loser, I don't mind." David Lawrence: If commercial success went, he wouldn't worry. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: Well, I mean these sort of riches is just unfathomable, aren't they? Prabhupāda: Hm. [Break] (end) Conversation -- July 13, 1973, London (Conversation with Educationists) Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura , they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa . . . according to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra . So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya . So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas , administrator class. Yes. So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books? Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We couldn't keep all. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have also known? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: No? Huh? Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still know very little. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him, "Get up! Get up! You have got this engagement. You have . . ." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them, "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta*-varān nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14): "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. And if he sleeps, then he loses his business. This is our mission, to awaken him. And when a man sleeps, how he can awaken him? Simply by vibration of sound. The sleeping man can be awakened simply by this process, allowing the sound to enter the ear. By no other process. He's sleeping. If you show him a stick, "If you don't get up, I shall strike you," that will not be effective. Because sleeping. If you say . . . so many things, there are other senses—there will be no action. But only through the ear, if you cry, "Please get up! Please get up! Now your time," that will act. So our process is that, to force him to hear. Then he'll be awakened, by hearing. Therefore Vedic literature is called śruti. Śruti means it has to be received by hearing. You may be uneducated; it doesn't matter. If you simply hear from the right source, you get right knowledge. There is no need of education. Simply by hearing. Guest (1): You teach your children, don't you? Prabhupāda: Yes, all my disciples, they're taught. Guest (1): No, I didn't mean disciples. I meant children, little ones. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got children's school also. Guest (1): They understand, do they not? *Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Because hearing is there. Everyone, even a child, after hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , he claps, he dances, he joins. That is practical. We have seen, small child, say four, five months old, on the lap of the mother, he's also moving, clapping. So this, this is also yoga system, bhakti*-yoga . So it is so practical that even a small child can take part in it, without any advanced knowledge. Universal. Guest (1): Sorry? Prabhupāda: Universal. Even dogs sometimes, they take part. We have got practical experience. They don't like to leave us. (laughter) Yes, I have seen. Devotee: I have, too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They like this chanting and dancing. So we are . . . our business is to awake the sleeping man. Sleeping man means when you sleep you have no knowledge. If somebody kills you, you cannot protect yourself. Sleeping. That is sleeping stage, that we do not know what is happening. That is called sleeping stage. Even if you are so*-called awakened, if you do not know the value of life, that is sleeping stage. That is sleeping stage. So in that sleeping stage, we are trying to awake the human society. A man, a human being, may be materially very qualified, but he does not know what is the value of human life, he's sleeping. He's sleeping. Can you distinguish—you are all educationist—what is the difference between a human being and an animal? Guest (1): Higher intelligence? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Higher intelligence, I guess. Prabhupāda: What is that higher intelligence? Guest (1): Speech and ability to compute what you hear. Prabhupāda: Oh, that, dog can also do. If you train dog that, "If somebody, outsider, comes, you bark," he'll do it. Guest (2): The consciousness is . . . Prabhupāda: And so . . . real intelligence is that to know "What I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake . . . so many things. So nobody wants to die, but death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made? What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means, "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there, three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease, diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind . . . body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pain. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects, they give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's . . . all of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like all, in India there is drought; they are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, suffering's going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think, "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse, he cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. *So this division— brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra —means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa . He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati ( BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas . Next, the vaiśyas . And the śūdras , they are like . . . almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go, "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancy." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food?" Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut! " This is the position. *Therefore in this age, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ (Skanda Purāṇa). In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa , no kṣatriya . There are some vaiśyas . And all śūdras . Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big . . . what is that? Śūdras . They are creating śūdras : "People should be dependent." Unless you work . . . therefore people are going fifty miles away, going . . . I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side . . . what is that? Haṁsadūta: Connecticut. Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island? Haṁsadūta: Staten Island. Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra , just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Guest (1): I couldn't follow you. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): I haven't followed you. Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not . . . no intelligence? Guest (1): I think you're right. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter) Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts in the matter really aren't worth very much. Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Guest (1): How can we, in a money*-orientated world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent? *Guest (1): In a money*-orientated world. Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence. Guest (1): No, I know. Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent. Guest (1): No, I understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money if you become independent, that is intelligence. Śrutakīrti: That was her question. Prabhupāda: Ah. That, if you can get Kṛṣṇa, you'll . . . Guest (1): But how do you . . . what I mean is how do you, how can you . . . *Prabhupāda: That "How to," that we shall teach, as we are teaching others. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: Yaṁ labdhvā. You get something which getting, you will be satisfied, "I don't want anything more." That is highest gain. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Cāparam. Another kind of benefit is not required. So yasmin sthite : if we remain in that position, then even there is hardest difficulty of life, he'll not be disturbed. (pause) Where is Paṇḍitjī? Devotee: I'll get him. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Should I put on the light, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Pradyumna enters) Sit down. (pause) He gets such thing, when he gets it, he'll consider that he doesn't want anything more. That is the greatest profit. And the result is that when one gets that thing, even he is in the greatest difficulty of life, he's not disturbed. *Hmm. (to Pradyumna) Take that. Bhagavad*-gītā . Yaṁ labdhvā. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. I think it is in the Sixth Chapter. Pradyumna: Yaṁ nam ? Prabhupāda: Labdhvā . Pradyumna: Oh, cāparaṁ lābham ? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: 6.22. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this, he thinks there is no greater gain. Being situated in such a position, one is never shaken, even in the midst of greatest difficulty. This, indeed, is actual freedom from all miseries arising from material contact." Prabhupāda: Purport. Pradyumna: "By practice of yoga , one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle. And after this, one becomes situated in trance, or samādhi , which means that the yogī realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Patañjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation, but they do not understand the real purpose of the Patañjali system of yoga ." *"There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patañjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the non*-dualist, but in this verse transcendental pleasure, realized through transcendental senses, is accepted, and this is corroborated by the Patañjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declares in his yoga-sūtras (4.34): puruṣārtha-śūnyānāṁ guṇānāṁ pratiprasavaḥ kaivalyaṁ svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti ." *"This citi-śakti , or internal potency, is transcendental. Puruṣārtha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This oneness with the Supreme is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patañjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam , or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This clearance is actually liberation, or bhava-mahādāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). The theory of nirvāṇa —also preliminary—corresponds with this principle. In the Bhāgavatam this is called svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). The Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this situation in this verse." *"After nirvāṇa , or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service of the Lord, known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the words of the Bhāgavatam, svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ : this is the real life of the living entity. Māyā , or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original eternal position of the living entity. Patañjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyam svarūpa*-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti . This citi-śakti , or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtras as ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). This natural transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga . Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā ." *"In the yoga system as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samādhi , called samprajñāta*-samādhi and asamprajñāta-samādhi . When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, it is called samprajñāta-samādhi . In the asamprajñāta-samādhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogī is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogī is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful." *"Today's so*-called yoga practice, which involves various sense pleasures, is contradictory. A yogī indulging in sex and intoxication is a mockery. Even those yogīs who are attracted by the siddhis (perfections) in the process of yoga are not perfectly situated. If the yogīs are attracted by the by-products of yoga , then they cannot attain the stage of perfection, as is stated in this verse. Persons, therefore, indulging in the make-show practice of gymnastic feats or siddhis should know that the aim of yoga is lost in that way." *"The best practice of yoga in this age is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is not baffling. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is so happy in his occupation that he does not aspire after any other happiness. There are many impediments, especially in this age of hypocrisy, to practicing haṭha*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and jñāna-yoga , but there is no such problem in executing karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga ." *"As long as the material body exists, one has to meet the demands of the body, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. But a person who is in pure bhakti*-yoga , or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, does not arouse the senses while meeting the demands of the body. Rather, he accepts the bare necessities of life, making the best use of a bad bargain, and enjoys transcendental happiness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is callous toward incidental occurrences—such as accidents, disease, scarcity and even the death of a most dear relative—but he is always alert to execute his duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or bhakti-yoga . Accidents never deviate him from his duty. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , āgamāpāyino 'nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata (BG 2.14). He endures all such incidental occurrences because he knows that they come and go and do not affect his duties. In this way he achieves the highest perfection in yoga practice." Prabhupāda: If you have got any question in this statement, you can ask. Guest (1): Just, just how? Prabhupāda: How, that you have to learn, but this is the process. Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You learn. We have got this institution. You can come and learn how others are doing, others are learning. We have got class in the morning at seven. If you've got time, you can . . . you are welcome. We don't charge anything. You can come and join. There is no business. You can live with us. We don't charge anything. Or you can come and go, attend class. There is no charge. Kṛṣṇa gives us everything. Just like this house. This is two hundred thousand pounds. George Harrison has purchased it, and he has given us. Similarly, everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. None of our members go to office or factory. (chuckles) But we eat also, nicely. Guest(2): Yes, but if somebody didn't go to the factories, you wouldn't, would you? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Somebody has to go and do the work to make the food, keep the country running. Prabhupāda: No. We don't hate to work. That is not our business. If we get work, we work for Kṛṣṇa. The income comes to Kṛṣṇa. But if we don't get work, we are not bothered that, "There is no work. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? Where shall I go?" No, there is no such botheration. So all the members, I think, eighty, ninety percent, they do not go to work outside. *Haṁsadūta: Ninety*-nine percent. Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) But they get their food and shelter and everything, even they live with the wife, children. So we . . . Kṛṣṇa gives. Not only that, that we are simply sannyāsī , brahmacārī . There are gṛhastha , householder—husband, wife, children. They are also living. So that is not our problem. How to eat, how to sleep, that is not our problem. Our only problem is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . Guest (1): Yes. That was the question that was puzzling me. What is . . .? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. Not in a moment you can understand. Then you have to come to the schooling process. Otherwise, how you can learn in a moment, such a big subject matter? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: We are going to solve all the problems of life. Such a nice proposal. Don't you think it requires little patience to understand how to do it? Guest (1): It requires a little bravery. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): It requires bravery, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got background Kṛṣṇa, so bravery, personally we haven't got to practice. Just like a child is in the protection of a able father, he's happy. "Whatever happens, father will see." He's happy. He's confident, "My father is there; my mother is there. Who can do any harm to me?" He's confident. Guest (1): There is so much that's wrong. *Prabhupāda: So similarly, if you depend on Kṛṣṇa, God, He'll take care of you. He says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). Everything is there. And that you have to understand practically. (pause) You are all living in neighborhood, this village? No. You have come from distant place? Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Oh. So whenever you find time, you can come, or, if you like, you can live with us. We have got ample place. Girls and ladies, they live separately. Boys and gentlemen, they live separately. Those who are married, we have got apartments for householders. And gradually, we are improving, I mean to say, arranging further facilities. First of all you try to attend our class in the morning and inquire all about your doubts. Have some clear idea what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Read our literatures as far as possible. You have taken some book, I see, I saw. (break) . . . foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and that is called prasādam , remnants of foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa cookbook. (aside) Show them. Devotee: (showing book) Hare Kṛṣṇa cookbook. Prabhupāda: Simply hear in our class and take this prasādam , your business will be done. You haven't got to do anything. Simply hear and take prasādam . Actually, it is not like that? Let him hear and take prasādam . And if you agree to this principle, we take charge of you. You haven't got any botheration, how you'll get prasādam . We shall arrange for you. Guest (3) (young British woman): Religion, meaning trying to serve God, is any more right than another? Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is the only business. Religion is different thing. Suppose . . . just like, I have already explained, that you are sleeping, and you have got a good engagement. And somebody's trying to awake you that, "You have to go there. Just get up. Get up." So this kind of business is not religion. Religion is a . . . what is a meant a kind of faith, a sentiment. That is different thing. It is the main business of human being. *Because we are part and parcel of . . . just like a boy, he's very rich man's son. Some way or other, he's out of his home, and he's suffering for want of food, want of shelter. And somebody is giving information that, "I know you are such*-and-such big man's son. Why you are loitering in the street? Why don't you go back to your home, back to your father?" So is it not the best business? So everyone is suffering. That I have already explained, how they are suffering. We are trying to save his suffering by dispatching him back to home, back to Godhead. This is our business. So it is not religion, it is the most important humanitarian work. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are giving the right information how human being can be really happy. This is end. It is not religious sentiment. Religion means a kind of faith. Today I am Hindu; tomorrow I am Christian; *next day I am Muhammadan. What benefit I may get by changing so*-called faith? Unless I understand what is my constitutional position, why I am suffering, how to get out of it . . . that is real life. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. It is not a sentimental religious faith. It is not like that. It is absolutely necessary for the human being. We are talking of human being because without being a human being, nobody will be able . . . the cats and dogs, they will not be able to understand the problem. In the human form of life you can make solution of all the problems of life. It is a science, how to make that solution. That we are teaching. We are not talking of religion. Religion . . . somebody will say, "I believe," "We believe . . ." Another will, "We believe." You believe; if it is not a fact, what is the use of such believing? We are dealing with facts, not the question of believing and not believing. Facts are facts. If you don't take facts, then you are missing the opportunity. (pause) (aside) You have got some visitors' book, to . . .? Haṁsadūta: Visitors' book, to sign? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Somebody told me they have got. You have seen all our books? You have seen? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Guest (1): Some of the little . . . (pause) (end) Conversation -- July 13, 1973, London (Conversation with Educationists) Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura , they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa . . . according to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra . So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya . So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas , administrator class. Yes. So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books? Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We couldn't keep all. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have also known? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: No? Huh? Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still know very little. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him, "Get up! Get up! You have got this engagement. You have . . ." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them, "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta*-varān nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14): "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. And if he sleeps, then he loses his business. This is our mission, to awaken him. And when a man sleeps, how he can awaken him? Simply by vibration of sound. The sleeping man can be awakened simply by this process, allowing the sound to enter the ear. By no other process. He's sleeping. If you show him a stick, "If you don't get up, I shall strike you," that will not be effective. Because sleeping. If you say . . . so many things, there are other senses—there will be no action. But only through the ear, if you cry, "Please get up! Please get up! Now your time," that will act. So our process is that, to force him to hear. Then he'll be awakened, by hearing. Therefore Vedic literature is called śruti. Śruti means it has to be received by hearing. You may be uneducated; it doesn't matter. If you simply hear from the right source, you get right knowledge. There is no need of education. Simply by hearing. Guest (1): You teach your children, don't you? Prabhupāda: Yes, all my disciples, they're taught. Guest (1): No, I didn't mean disciples. I meant children, little ones. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got children's school also. Guest (1): They understand, do they not? *Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Because hearing is there. Everyone, even a child, after hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , he claps, he dances, he joins. That is practical. We have seen, small child, say four, five months old, on the lap of the mother, he's also moving, clapping. So this, this is also yoga system, bhakti*-yoga . So it is so practical that even a small child can take part in it, without any advanced knowledge. Universal. Guest (1): Sorry? Prabhupāda: Universal. Even dogs sometimes, they take part. We have got practical experience. They don't like to leave us. (laughter) Yes, I have seen. Devotee: I have, too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They like this chanting and dancing. So we are . . . our business is to awake the sleeping man. Sleeping man means when you sleep you have no knowledge. If somebody kills you, you cannot protect yourself. Sleeping. That is sleeping stage, that we do not know what is happening. That is called sleeping stage. Even if you are so*-called awakened, if you do not know the value of life, that is sleeping stage. That is sleeping stage. So in that sleeping stage, we are trying to awake the human society. A man, a human being, may be materially very qualified, but he does not know what is the value of human life, he's sleeping. He's sleeping. Can you distinguish—you are all educationist—what is the difference between a human being and an animal? Guest (1): Higher intelligence? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Higher intelligence, I guess. Prabhupāda: What is that higher intelligence? Guest (1): Speech and ability to compute what you hear. Prabhupāda: Oh, that, dog can also do. If you train dog that, "If somebody, outsider, comes, you bark," he'll do it. Guest (2): The consciousness is . . . Prabhupāda: And so . . . real intelligence is that to know "What I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake . . . so many things. So nobody wants to die, but death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made? What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means, "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there, three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease, diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind . . . body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pain. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects, they give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's . . . all of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like all, in India there is drought; they are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, suffering's going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think, "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse, he cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. *So this division— brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra —means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa . He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati ( BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas . Next, the vaiśyas . And the śūdras , they are like . . . almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go, "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancy." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food?" Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut! " This is the position. *Therefore in this age, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ (Skanda Purāṇa). In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa , no kṣatriya . There are some vaiśyas . And all śūdras . Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big . . . what is that? Śūdras . They are creating śūdras : "People should be dependent." Unless you work . . . therefore people are going fifty miles away, going . . . I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side . . . what is that? Haṁsadūta: Connecticut. Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island? Haṁsadūta: Staten Island. Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra , just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Guest (1): I couldn't follow you. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): I haven't followed you. Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not . . . no intelligence? Guest (1): I think you're right. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter) Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts in the matter really aren't worth very much. Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Guest (1): How can we, in a money*-orientated world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent? *Guest (1): In a money*-orientated world. Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence. Guest (1): No, I know. Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent. Guest (1): No, I understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money if you become independent, that is intelligence. Śrutakīrti: That was her question. Prabhupāda: Ah. That, if you can get Kṛṣṇa, you'll . . . Guest (1): But how do you . . . what I mean is how do you, how can you . . . *Prabhupāda: That "How to," that we shall teach, as we are teaching others. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: Yaṁ labdhvā. You get something which getting, you will be satisfied, "I don't want anything more." That is highest gain. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Cāparam. Another kind of benefit is not required. So yasmin sthite : if we remain in that position, then even there is hardest difficulty of life, he'll not be disturbed. (pause) Where is Paṇḍitjī? Devotee: I'll get him. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Should I put on the light, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Pradyumna enters) Sit down. (pause) He gets such thing, when he gets it, he'll consider that he doesn't want anything more. That is the greatest profit. And the result is that when one gets that thing, even he is in the greatest difficulty of life, he's not disturbed. *Hmm. (to Pradyumna) Take that. Bhagavad*-gītā . Yaṁ labdhvā. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. I think it is in the Sixth Chapter. Pradyumna: Yaṁ nam ? Prabhupāda: Labdhvā . Pradyumna: Oh, cāparaṁ lābham ? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: 6.22. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this, he thinks there is no greater gain. Being situated in such a position, one is never shaken, even in the midst of greatest difficulty. This, indeed, is actual freedom from all miseries arising from material contact." Prabhupāda: Purport. Pradyumna: "By practice of yoga , one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle. And after this, one becomes situated in trance, or samādhi , which means that the yogī realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Patañjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation, but they do not understand the real purpose of the Patañjali system of yoga ." *"There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patañjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the non*-dualist, but in this verse transcendental pleasure, realized through transcendental senses, is accepted, and this is corroborated by the Patañjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declares in his yoga-sūtras (4.34): puruṣārtha-śūnyānāṁ guṇānāṁ pratiprasavaḥ kaivalyaṁ svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti ." *"This citi-śakti , or internal potency, is transcendental. Puruṣārtha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This oneness with the Supreme is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patañjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam , or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This clearance is actually liberation, or bhava-mahādāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). The theory of nirvāṇa —also preliminary—corresponds with this principle. In the Bhāgavatam this is called svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). The Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this situation in this verse." *"After nirvāṇa , or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service of the Lord, known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the words of the Bhāgavatam, svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ : this is the real life of the living entity. Māyā , or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original eternal position of the living entity. Patañjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyam svarūpa*-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti . This citi-śakti , or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtras as ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). This natural transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga . Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā ." *"In the yoga system as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samādhi , called samprajñāta*-samādhi and asamprajñāta-samādhi . When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, it is called samprajñāta-samādhi . In the asamprajñāta-samādhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogī is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogī is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful." *"Today's so*-called yoga practice, which involves various sense pleasures, is contradictory. A yogī indulging in sex and intoxication is a mockery. Even those yogīs who are attracted by the siddhis (perfections) in the process of yoga are not perfectly situated. If the yogīs are attracted by the by-products of yoga , then they cannot attain the stage of perfection, as is stated in this verse. Persons, therefore, indulging in the make-show practice of gymnastic feats or siddhis should know that the aim of yoga is lost in that way." *"The best practice of yoga in this age is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is not baffling. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is so happy in his occupation that he does not aspire after any other happiness. There are many impediments, especially in this age of hypocrisy, to practicing haṭha*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and jñāna-yoga , but there is no such problem in executing karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga ." *"As long as the material body exists, one has to meet the demands of the body, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. But a person who is in pure bhakti*-yoga , or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, does not arouse the senses while meeting the demands of the body. Rather, he accepts the bare necessities of life, making the best use of a bad bargain, and enjoys transcendental happiness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is callous toward incidental occurrences—such as accidents, disease, scarcity and even the death of a most dear relative—but he is always alert to execute his duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or bhakti-yoga . Accidents never deviate him from his duty. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , āgamāpāyino 'nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata (BG 2.14). He endures all such incidental occurrences because he knows that they come and go and do not affect his duties. In this way he achieves the highest perfection in yoga practice." Prabhupāda: If you have got any question in this statement, you can ask. Guest (1): Just, just how? Prabhupāda: How, that you have to learn, but this is the process. Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You learn. We have got this institution. You can come and learn how others are doing, others are learning. We have got class in the morning at seven. If you've got time, you can . . . you are welcome. We don't charge anything. You can come and join. There is no business. You can live with us. We don't charge anything. Or you can come and go, attend class. There is no charge. Kṛṣṇa gives us everything. Just like this house. This is two hundred thousand pounds. George Harrison has purchased it, and he has given us. Similarly, everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. None of our members go to office or factory. (chuckles) But we eat also, nicely. Guest(2): Yes, but if somebody didn't go to the factories, you wouldn't, would you? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Somebody has to go and do the work to make the food, keep the country running. Prabhupāda: No. We don't hate to work. That is not our business. If we get work, we work for Kṛṣṇa. The income comes to Kṛṣṇa. But if we don't get work, we are not bothered that, "There is no work. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? Where shall I go?" No, there is no such botheration. So all the members, I think, eighty, ninety percent, they do not go to work outside. *Haṁsadūta: Ninety*-nine percent. Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) But they get their food and shelter and everything, even they live with the wife, children. So we . . . Kṛṣṇa gives. Not only that, that we are simply sannyāsī , brahmacārī . There are gṛhastha , householder—husband, wife, children. They are also living. So that is not our problem. How to eat, how to sleep, that is not our problem. Our only problem is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . Guest (1): Yes. That was the question that was puzzling me. What is . . .? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. Not in a moment you can understand. Then you have to come to the schooling process. Otherwise, how you can learn in a moment, such a big subject matter? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: We are going to solve all the problems of life. Such a nice proposal. Don't you think it requires little patience to understand how to do it? Guest (1): It requires a little bravery. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): It requires bravery, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got background Kṛṣṇa, so bravery, personally we haven't got to practice. Just like a child is in the protection of a able father, he's happy. "Whatever happens, father will see." He's happy. He's confident, "My father is there; my mother is there. Who can do any harm to me?" He's confident. Guest (1): There is so much that's wrong. *Prabhupāda: So similarly, if you depend on Kṛṣṇa, God, He'll take care of you. He says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). Everything is there. And that you have to understand practically. (pause) You are all living in neighborhood, this village? No. You have come from distant place? Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Oh. So whenever you find time, you can come, or, if you like, you can live with us. We have got ample place. Girls and ladies, they live separately. Boys and gentlemen, they live separately. Those who are married, we have got apartments for householders. And gradually, we are improving, I mean to say, arranging further facilities. First of all you try to attend our class in the morning and inquire all about your doubts. Have some clear idea what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Read our literatures as far as possible. You have taken some book, I see, I saw. (break) . . . foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and that is called prasādam , remnants of foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa cookbook. (aside) Show them. Devotee: (showing book) Hare Kṛṣṇa cookbook. Prabhupāda: Simply hear in our class and take this prasādam , your business will be done. You haven't got to do anything. Simply hear and take prasādam . Actually, it is not like that? Let him hear and take prasādam . And if you agree to this principle, we take charge of you. You haven't got any botheration, how you'll get prasādam . We shall arrange for you. Guest (3) (young British woman): Religion, meaning trying to serve God, is any more right than another? Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is the only business. Religion is different thing. Suppose . . . just like, I have already explained, that you are sleeping, and you have got a good engagement. And somebody's trying to awake you that, "You have to go there. Just get up. Get up." So this kind of business is not religion. Religion is a . . . what is a meant a kind of faith, a sentiment. That is different thing. It is the main business of human being. *Because we are part and parcel of . . . just like a boy, he's very rich man's son. Some way or other, he's out of his home, and he's suffering for want of food, want of shelter. And somebody is giving information that, "I know you are such*-and-such big man's son. Why you are loitering in the street? Why don't you go back to your home, back to your father?" So is it not the best business? So everyone is suffering. That I have already explained, how they are suffering. We are trying to save his suffering by dispatching him back to home, back to Godhead. This is our business. So it is not religion, it is the most important humanitarian work. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are giving the right information how human being can be really happy. This is end. It is not religious sentiment. Religion means a kind of faith. Today I am Hindu; tomorrow I am Christian; *next day I am Muhammadan. What benefit I may get by changing so*-called faith? Unless I understand what is my constitutional position, why I am suffering, how to get out of it . . . that is real life. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. It is not a sentimental religious faith. It is not like that. It is absolutely necessary for the human being. We are talking of human being because without being a human being, nobody will be able . . . the cats and dogs, they will not be able to understand the problem. In the human form of life you can make solution of all the problems of life. It is a science, how to make that solution. That we are teaching. We are not talking of religion. Religion . . . somebody will say, "I believe," "We believe . . ." Another will, "We believe." You believe; if it is not a fact, what is the use of such believing? We are dealing with facts, not the question of believing and not believing. Facts are facts. If you don't take facts, then you are missing the opportunity. (pause) (aside) You have got some visitors' book, to . . .? Haṁsadūta: Visitors' book, to sign? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Somebody told me they have got. You have seen all our books? You have seen? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Guest (1): Some of the little . . . (pause) (end) Conversation -- July 14, 1973, London Indian man (1): But if an animal kills, he kills for food. Indian man (2): Another one, Guru Mahārāja, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over. Prabhupāda: Wherever. This is our advertisement. Indian man (2): Advertisement . . . Prabhupāda: Demonstration of world religion. Indian man (2): World religion. Prabhupāda: This is world religion. Indian man (2): But what inside . . . they say religion and moral education books, and all this . . . so actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. And our organization, not theirs, those . . . confusing the people. Prabhupāda: No, they are taking. Indian man (2): People are recognizing that this is very important. They say: "the world religion," and this is the tool. They say, well, the tool, "Here is the new tool for religion education in the secondary schools." So they are recognizing this fact. Prabhupāda: Without canvassing, people join. Indian man (2): This is the fact here, see. *Prabhupāda: And the world religion . . . the Ratha*-yātrā, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there? Indian man (1): No, I was not. Prabhupāda: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasādam . And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that . . . Devotee: Several pictures . . . *Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha*-yātrā is Rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. Toh hum India jaata toh humko bolta, "aap toh Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya." (When I go to India, some say that, "You have destroyed the Hindu religion.") Indian man (1): Hindu dharm ko badha diya toh naash karna! (You have increased the Hindu religion and they say that you have destroyed it.) Prabhupāda: Woh humko sab bolta hai, "aap toh naash kar diya. Bhaktivedanta Swami Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya. Sab mleccha logo ko jaaneoo de deta hai." (They say: "You have destroyed everything. Bhaktivedanta Swami has destroyed Hindu religion. He gives the sacred thread to the mlecchas .") Indian man: Aaj ek article dekha tha . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly mei. Toh woh uska heading thaa (Today I saw an article in the . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly. The heading was) "Envy, our national character." Envy, lot of envy. If you are successful or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous. Prabhupāda: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you. Indian man (1): Woh jealous hai isliye kahenge ki "aapne yeh dharm prachaar kyun kiya aur Hindu dharm ka aapne sab khatam kar diya." Aapko kehte hain, hindu dharm aapne khatam kar diya. Toh woh jealous karte hain. (They are jealous so they will ask, "Why did you try to preach Hindu religion and spoil it completely as a result?" They tell you that you have finished Hindu religion. So they are jealous.) Jealousy and Envy. Prabhupāda: Kaun bolta hai? (Who says that?) Indian man: Jo bhi bolte hain. (Whoever it may be.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Indian man: Aaj kal dharm ka business bana rakha hai logo ne. Jidhar bhi jaao . . . (Nowadays people have made religion into business. Wherever one goes . . .) *Prabhupāda: Dharm toh ek hi hai. (There is only one religion.) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat*-praṇītam ( SB 6.3.19): "Religion is given by God." Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. Jo Bhagwan ki di hui hai woh religion hai. Bhagwan ka kya kehna hai, (There is no other religion. Only that which is given by God is religion. What does God say?) Sarva-dharmān parityajya , mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So this is religion. Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagati. Toh hum log toh asal religion de raha hoon, Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagat hoye. Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. (To surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. We are giving the actual religion which is surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. All other ideas are not religion.) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2): "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? *This is religion. That is first*-class religion, which teaches bhakti , yato bhaktir adhokṣaje , to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja . Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to " kṣa ," whatever experience we have got . . . or akṣa means eyes, senses. *So within sense perception, whatever is there . . . God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhokṣaja. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje . That is first*-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as kaitava . And Śrīdhara Svāmī gives his comments on this kaitava : chala-dharma . Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, mokṣa-vāñchāpi nirastam . That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called mokṣa . Dharma-artha-kāma-mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90). *Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and then merge into the effulgence, mokṣa , liberation. So Śrīdhara Svāmī says up to mokṣa*-vāñchā is cheating, kaitava . Up to mokṣa-vāñchā. Mokṣa-vāñchāpy atra nirastam , kevala bhagavad-upāsanā . That is dharma . That is real dharma . Bhagavad-upāsanā . So we are teaching that religion, bhagavad-upāsanā , simply. We have no such ambition, to be elevated to the heavenly planet or to merge into the Brahman effulgence. No! We can live anywhere, even in the hell. It doesn't matter. But our worship of Kṛṣṇa shall continue. This is our religion. So we are not ambitious to go to heaven or higher planetary system or higher standard of life. We have no such ambition. We simply want Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, that's all. Never mind where it is. This is real dharma . Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje . So this boy has become your celā (disciple). He's very nice boy. What is his name? Dhruvānanda? Or his father's name. What is your name? Dhruvānanda: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Heh? Devotee: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. Yes. Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Indian man (2): Aur darshan karne aaye the. (We have come to see you . . .) Prabhupāda: Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kidhar se aaye hain aap? (Where have you come from?) You are coming from where? Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man (2): His . . . there's a place here, His. Prabhupāda: Oh. Aapka toh woh reading hai na? (Don't you have a reading here?) Indian man (3): Prajapati. Aap gaye the? Yeh India chale gaye the, abhi parso aaye laut ke, Tuesday ko. (Did you visit? He had gone to India and returned the day before yesterday, on Tuesday.) Prabhupāda: Accha. Sab ghar mei theek thaak hai na? (Alright. So, is everyone doing well in your home?) Indian man (2) : Woh abhi sab India mei hi hai. (All of them are in India.) Prabhupāda: India mei hain abhi sab? (Is everyone in India right now?) Indian man (2): Sab bacche wahin chale gaye the. (Everyone went there along with their children.) Indian man (3): Hum log wahan settle hone gaye the. (We went there to get settled.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Indian man (2): Phir laut ke yahin aaye. Wahan nahi rehne diya logo ne. (But we came back because people did not allow us to stay there.) Prabhupāda: Rehne nahi diya? (Did not allow you to stay?) Indian man (2): Nahi diya rehne wahan. (They did not allow us to stay.) Kya baat hai? (What's the matter?) Badaa takleef hoga. (Lots of problems.) Prabhupāda: Kidhar? Rajasthan mein gya tha? (Where? Did you go to Rajasthan?) Indian man (2): Nahi, Rajasthan nahi. Dehradun mei gaye the. (No, not Rajasthan. We had gone to Dehradun.) Prabhupāda: Dehradun, toh takleef hua udhar? Kya baat hai? (Dehradun, so did you face any difficulty there? What is the matter?) Indian man (2): Udhar har cheez ka takleef hai. Khaane ko nahi milta hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mei zyada takleef hai. (There is difficulty in everything. You do not get to eat . . . (indistinct) . . . has more problems.) Everything. Prabhupāda: Baat kariye. (Discuss it.) Idhar se koi jaaye toh iske liye reheno ko . . . (If someone goes from here, it is very difficult . . .) Indian man (3): Woh rehta nahi hai. (He does not stay there.) Indian man (2): Everybody thinks you know . . . you are coming from abroad, you've got a lot of foreign things. They should have it. Everybody comes in that attitude. So if he's not . . . Prabhupāda: Ye log ko itna loot ta hai, yeh American log ko, hamara. Woh Mayapur mei, estimate hua hai, yeh 15 lakh rupiya kharcha hoga. Hum janta hai 10 lakh rupiya toh yeh log khaa gya. Itna thagata hai. (They rob these people so much, our American men. In Māyāpur, it has been estimated that 15 lakhs will be spent. I know they have used at least 10 lakhs out of that. They cheat so much.) Indian man (2): Kaun? (Who?) Prabhupāda: Contractor, yehi sab. (This contractor and everyone else.) Indian man (2): Aur material toh kharab lagaya hua lagta hai. Apka Vrindavan woh mandir bhi dekh ke aaye the hum. Ban raha thaa. Apke wahan jo devotees the unse bhi mil ke aaye. (And the material used seems to be of bad quality. We had also visited your temple in Vṛndāvana. Construction was going on. We also met the devotees present there.) Prabhupāda: Bahut thagaa, ab kya kahen? (They cheat so much, now what to say?) Indian man (2): Baki yeh India mei settle hone ka vichaar apke sang par aane ke baad hi hua hamara. Thoda spiritual line mei interest ho gya. Humne socha India mei . . . (Rest, we decided to return to India after coming in contact with you. We got a little interested in spirituality. We thought that in India . . .) Prabhupāda: Nahi, kahin bhi rahiye . . . (No, wherever you stay . . .) Indian man (2): Kuch humein aisa vaham ho gya tha ki Indian mei jaane se zyada spiritualism milega. (We actually had this misconception that if we go to India we will get more spiritualism.) And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, and I have come back. I think the life is more peaceful here than it is in India. Prabhupāda: Nahi theek hai. Ye hamara bhi opinion hai. India toh aise hi hai. (No, that's alright. I also have the same opinion. India is like that.) Indian man (3): It's more peaceful. Prabhupāda: . . . koi gentleman ka rehena ka jagah nahi hai . . . (Not a place for gentlemen to live.) Especially in Bengal, all they have turned to be rogues. Student or family . . . Indian man (3): Due to poverty, Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Nahi, culture nasht kar diya. (No, they have destroyed the culture.) Indian man (3): Culture nasht. (Culture destroyed.) Prabhupāda: Poverty kya hai? Sabhi ko, kutta ko khaane ko milta hai. Ye koi . . . (What is poverty? Everyone, even dogs get something to eat. Is this . . .) poverty is not question. Indian man (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character. Prabhupāda: Yeh jo . . . jo kuch hi khaao, jo kuch karo, dharma se koi vichaar nahi hai. (All this . . . eat whatever you want, do whatever you want, have no concern about dharma .) They have no idea about Vedic . . . they are supposed to be preaching Vedānta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedānta . Indian man (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama Tirtha. But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy. Prabhupāda: Rama Tirtha also, he gave stress on oṁkāra . Is it not? Oṁkāra ? *Indian man (1): Hmm. I think he is more on this karma*-yoga . He believes that you should . . . Unhone Japan mei ek lecture diya thaa. (He had given a lecture in Japan.) 'Secret of success' or something like that. I think it is in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that . . . *Indian man (3): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Toh India mei kitna din thehra? (So how long did you stay in India?) Indian man (3): Main nau mahina raha. (I stayed for nine months.) First I went there . . . Prabhupāda: So you have got your own house there, Dehradun? Indian man (3): No, I tried to buy a house, and I paid a deposit and everything. I wanted to buy the house. Then I came to England to raise the money. I raised the money and I went back to India. And by the time I went back, there were four litigations going on the house. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. (laughter) Indian man (1): "I got this right on this house," "I got right . . ." *Indian man (3): There were four litigations going on that house, and, you know, they all wanted the possession of the empty, vacant part of that house. I mean it was part*-possession property. They all wanted possession of the vacant part. Prabhupāda: Then what happened? Indian man (3): So anyway, fortunately, the vendor also told me he doesn't want to sell. I said: "Thanks to God." So he gave me the money back . . . Prabhupāda: So you returned. That's nice. Indian man (3): . . . and I got out of it. I was lucky, really, you know. Prabhupāda: Aise hi Bombay mei hum logo ko fasaa diya. (We are trapped like this in Bombay.) Indian man (1): Kahan? Krishna land? Accha, kya hua udhar? (Where? Kṛṣṇa land? Okay, what happened there?) Indian man (3): So I was very lucky, really. Prabhupāda: Bhavant. (Litigation is going on.) Indian man (1): Blitz mein aapke bare mein aaya tha, hamne padha. (I read an article about you that appeared in the Blitz .) Prabhupāda: Humlog abhi tak possession nahi liye hain. (They have not given us possession.) Woh hamne pehle socha tha itna leniency de raha hai kya karan hai. Us samay man tha rupya paisa jo kuch hai possession unse le liya jaye. (This thought came to us right at the beginning, why is he behaving so leniently with us? It was because he wanted to take whatever money we have.) Indian man: Khali possession nahi aaya hai. Public peeche pad gaya, Jahan jaata hai card laga ke aa jata hai. (Only possession is not given until now. The public is also after him. Wherever he goes, he leaves his card behind.) Prabhupada: Kya sena hai, Shiv Sena aapko maloom hai vo hamara paksh main hai. (What sena is it? Shiv Sena. They are in our favor.) Indian man: Shiv Sena jinke paksh mein ho jayega voh jeetega bahut strong hai. (Whichever party is favored by Shiv Sena, that emerges victorious. It is very strong.) Prabhupada: Uska jo leader hai . . . Musalman log yahan bahut hain, kya baat hai. Musalman bhi hamara paksh mein hain. Kya baat hai, mandir barbad karna? (Their leader is . . . even the Muslims are in our favour. What's the matter, destroying the temple?) Indian man: Krishna aapke paksh mein hain. (Kṛṣṇa is on your side.) Prabhupāda: Sirf Congress opposition mein hai. (Only Congress is in opposition.) Indian man: Aapke saath sabse shaktishaali aadmi hai. (You have the strongest man on your side.) Prabhupāda: Hum to wohi keh rahe hain. Agar Gita mein kuch matlab hai to possession le lo aur Bhagwan ko betha do. (That is what I am saying. If there is any meaning in the *Gītā* then take possession and establish God there.) Indian man: Bhagvan ko nahi hata sakte. (They cannot remove the Lord.) Indian man: Jiska bhi paisa liya hai . . . (Whosoever's money he has taken . . .) Prabhupāda: Husband jhagda karte karte mar hi gaya ab wife jhagda kar rahi hai. (Husband died fighting, now his wife is continuing the fight.) (break) Prabhupāda: Otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said: "It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra ; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. Koi agar doctor ke paas jaata hai to poochta nahi ki kaun jaat? (If someone goes to a doctor, no one asks about the caste of the doctor.) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa , a śūdra . It doesn't matter. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . just like Śaṅkarācārya, Unka yehi condition tha. (He had only one condition.) First of all, you become sannyāsa . Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa . Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha , it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa." (referring to young boy) So he's Dhruvānanda? Indian man (1): Dhruvānanda. Guests: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. And what is your father's name? Dhruvānanda: Devadatta. Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: Devadatta. Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: And your mother's name? Dhruvānanda: Draupadī. Indian man (3): Draupadī. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That D*-D-D. All "D". Indian man: Aap hi ne to diya naam. (You have only named them.) Prabhupāda: Jaroorat aavishkar ki maa hai. Yeh accha jagah hai. (Need is the mother of invention. This is a very nice place.) Indian man: Mausam bhi itna kharab nahi hai. (Weather is also not so bad.) Prabhupāda: Subah mein morning walk hota hai. (I go for a morning walk.) Indian man: Kya yahan karyakram hai aapka? (What's your schedule here?) Prabhupāda: Dictaphone aur jo koi aaya usse baatchit karna. Ek ghanta class leta hoon saat baje. (Dictaphone and whoever comes, I preach. I take a one hour class at seven.) Indian man (3): That was a determination to learn. One has got the . . . he has written his own . . . his conclusion . . . Indian man (1): (indistinct) . . . what was Droṇācārya. He has taken his thumb for nothing actually. Indian man (3): No, that was his test. Indian man (1): In order to please Arjuna. Indian man (3): In order to please Arjuna. And that was his test. And that was his determination, that he rejected, and he learned the science, just, uh, faith. Prabhupāda: In material world, such competition is there. Indian man (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual world. That is material. So Droṇācārya gave Arjuna the benediction that "You shall be the greatest archer." So in order to keep his promise, he made that . . . Indian man (1): That wasn't, I think, what he did. (Paramahaṁsa or someone else enters) Paramahaṁsa: Śyāmasundara . . . Śyāmasundara is not in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is that? Devotee: Oh, this is just a little preparation, burfī and a little khīr . Indian man (3): Can't you bring in the plate like that? Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Devotee: I tried to find a plate. There's no . . . should I leave it here? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Indian man (3): So, so many stories he had memorized, and he started writing and asking many questions, Prabhupāda, so I'm not . . . but he has got the talent that if he'll get the right guidance and all this, he can easily translate *Mahābhārata*, many stories in the book shape, in different articles, which can very much help in our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): And for six weeks, seven weeks, his holiday, he can remain. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll remain here. Indian man (3): Remain here. There is no problem. Then how he can develop it? So now you are quite free in next . . . alright? And he has memorized almost all your bhajana, everything. Prabhupāda: Very good. Indian man (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least he's on the right path. Prabhupāda: Everyone can be on the right path, provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path. (pause) Indian man (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the āśrama . Do you run sort of a school for them all? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them. Prabhupāda: Hmm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care. Indian man (1): How many children are here? Prabhupāda: (to Dhruvānanda) You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there. Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, why? There is . . . go and sleep. Indian man (1): Go and sleep? Prabhupāda: Yes, go and sleep. Take rest. Go on. Indian man (3): You know, Prabhupāda, when you came to my house that evening . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? *Indian man (3): You had hari*-kīrtana at our house and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): We had a very funny incident after you left. After two or three days, my young daughter, you know . . . she's about two or two and a half at that time. She was sitting in one corner of the house, and she, you know those cups like this you have to have, to keep under the furniture legs, you know, cup like this, she had two of them, and she was doing like that. And, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Karatālas . Indian man (3): My daughter. I asked her, you know, "What are you doing?" She replied quietly, "I'm doing Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (3): So that, you know, really hit me hard, and I thought, "Look, one day's sat*-saṅga can have that effect on life, how much bigger effect it would have . . ." Prabhupāda: Intelligent, this is intelligent. Indian man (3): ". . . if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say: "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really strike me. Prabhupāda: No, you can attend here. You remain here. *Indian man (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat*-saṅga, first time in her life. Prabhupāda: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the . . . therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction. Indian man (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know. Prabhupāda: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children; they dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras . What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Bhakta Viśvareta. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Oh, he'll fall flat just like . . . and he will chant all these mantras : " Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale . . ." A small child at three years old. You see. Indian man (1): I mean, advancement has very . . . Indian man (3): Good association. Indian man (1): . . . effect, you know, on the mind. Prabhupāda: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh? Satsvarūpa: Just . . . it's not very difficult. It's just that we have . . . there is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his . . . so we're bringing children from other countries. Indian man (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls? Satsvarūpa: No, boys and girls. Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there? Satsvarūpa: Up to fifteen, yes. Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there? Prabhupāda: Well, as far as possible. Indian man (3): As far as possible. Do you have any prospectus or anything about that school? Satsvarūpa: Yes, I have literature. Indian man (3): You have literature about that school? Prabhupāda: He's in charge. Indian man (3): You are in charge of that school? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): I see. Can I ask . . . Prabhupāda: But tell . . . he has started. Indian man (3): You have started that school? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda started it. (laughter) Indian man (3): Yes. Could you sometime tell me about that school? Satsvarūpa: Sure, later we can talk. Prabhupāda: There are good teachers. We are teaching Sanskrit and English especially. Indian man (3): They teach Sanskrit, English? Prabhupāda: That is all. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature, which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, ārati , worship of the Deity, and they play mṛdaṅga , they chant, they join Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. They are not meant for any technology. Indian man (3): No. Prabhupāda: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brāhmaṇa , not for become technologist. Technologist, there are many. Indian man (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only business of human life. Indian man (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of a spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. (break) . . . I believe in Aurobindo's āśrama also they have some sort of school. You know about Aurobindo's āśrama in Pondicherry? Indian man (3): There are so many. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Indian man (1): I have not been there. I just heard about it. Prabhupāda: Actual spiritual life, unless you (break) Indian man (1): I tried to read this Aurobindo philosophy. It's too difficult for me . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): I found it too difficult for me to understand. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā ? Indian man (1): No, Aurobindo philosophy, I was reading . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, nobody can understand. Simply he can understand. Indian man (1): So difficult. Prabhupāda: It is meant for him. *Indian man (4): You read Guru Mahārāja's Bhagavad*-gītā , so simple. Even the child can understand who knows English. (break) Why the poor animals should be killed? They have got equal rights. But these rascals, they will not give equal rights. (break) . . . "National" means one who is born in that land. The animals are born in that land. Man is also born in that land. Trees are also born in that land. But they are not national. Only human beings national. Imperfect knowledge. Indian man (4): In Luton, before eighty years . . . when I was reading the history of Luton, on the page number 176 it was written that there was a great shortage of food before eighty years, and in some place people were cutting their own children and eating. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Indian man (4): This is written. If you like that book, I can send you. So the non*-vegetarians . . . Prabhupāda: Cutting their children? *Indian man (4): Cutting their own children, killing them and eat them. In some private places in Luton, where I am residing now. The history of Luton has been published by the County Borough of Luton. The non*-vegetarian food leaved them to such an extent that they couldn't stay without the meat, and they had to cut their own children. Now we are vegetarian. I have never tasted any meat. I don't know the taste of it. Still, we all exist on vegetables, all sorts of vegetables. Prabhupāda: The same thing happened in Kanpur in a hotel. One man was eating meat, and he found a little finger . . . Indian man (4): Finger of some . . . Indian man (2): That was in the Bombay, in the Vile Parle, in my place, where I was living. Prabhupāda: Oh! Indian man (4): Newspaper meat . . . mein dekha. Hamare Ville Parle mein bhi hua. (I saw meat . . . in Ville Parle also it happened.) Indian man (2): This gentleman went to the hotel and found a small finger. Prabhupāda: Small children cut up. And there was another case in Calcutta. The, one Chinaman, he was eating human being. And then . . . (break) . . . some Kancawala (rag picker) him called, and then captured and killed him. This was going on. Later on, when police inquiry was made, so many human . . . Indian man (2): Bones . . . Indian man (4): Skeletons. Prabhupāda: . . . bones, skeletons was found. In Africa there are still cannibals. Indian man (4): Oh, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America as well. Prabhupāda: South America also? In India also. Indian man (1): That, these . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. In Assam side. Indian man (1): This Assam, some of the places. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They eat human beings. Nara*-buli, sacrifice human being, still there is a class of men. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America, they take a human being, from the head down, they eat. Then the head, they shrink it until it becomes very small, and this is a great prize. *Indian man (2): Television mein bhi dikhaya tha. Who chote chote khopadi hain usko sukha dete hain aur number se laga dete hain. ek sau*-do sau. Yeh sab dikha dete hain, South-America mein kya? (It was shown on the television. There are small dried skulls, displayed chronologically 100 to 200. They show all this on the television. In South America, isn't it?) Prabhupāda: Just like you, you keep the tiger's face after killing. Indian man (2): Chota ho jata hai. Han, vaise hi. (It becomes small. Yes, just like that.) Indian man (5): Does this food make effect on a human nature? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Indian man (5): These non*-vegetarian foods and things like that. They definitely make effect on a human nature and behavior. *Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. George Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book: You Are What You Eat. So eating has got effect. Sāttvikāhāra or . . . unless one is in the sāttvika position, he cannot understand about self*-realization. It is not possible. Indian man (5): The human beings get dreams, and what's the lesson between the dreams and the actual life? Suppose I have a dream at night . . . Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body. Indian man (5): It has nothing to do with the human . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, dream . . . just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara . They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara , but they do not have any education about this dehāntara . *Indian man (5): Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara*-gataṁ , paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā , yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam , tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye . *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that, "I'll have to change my this body; *then what kind of body I'm going to get next life," that next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such*-and-such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know, "Then what shall I do next? I have to work." So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body . . . just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think, "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. *So that is also described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ . You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā . If you want to remain within this planetary system . . . yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām : "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats' and dogs' category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is . . . here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am . . ." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . *Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking . . .? Even if you take the body of demigod like Brahmā, millions of years age . . ." That is stated in the Bhag . . . ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). *Indian man (5): Kṣīne puṇye martya*-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). *Prabhupāda: Kṣīne puṇye punaḥ martya*-lokaṁ viśanti . So why should we waste our time? Even I become Brahmā, again we have to come. Indian man (5): Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), kṣurasya dhara niśita duratyayā . Prabhupāda: Duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te . Hai to disease bahut kathin. Lekin accha doctor hone se bimari thik ho jata hai. (Although the disease is very serious, if there is a good physician then it can be cured.) So that is there said: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā . Very difficult. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te . So why don't you do that? *Indian man (5): Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva*-bhāvena bhārata (BG 18.62). *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done? *Indian man (5): Sva*-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ (BG 3.35). *Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva*-dharma . Sva-dharma , that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ . You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa . But he's not doing that. *Indian man (5): So he's not performing his sva*-dharma . Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him. *Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already . . . a brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa *-like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa . Janma-karma , uh, guṇa-karma . So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas . Now act like brāhmaṇa . Then your life is succ . . . *Varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ , svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān , viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya , as a vaiśya , as a śūdra , it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra , the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. *But they are not doing even sva*-dharma , bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma . "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma , including that, "You have to give up your sva-dharma . Don't . . . you cannot act as a brāhmaṇa , you cannot act as a kṣatriya , neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya . All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . this is the . . . (indistinct) Indian man (5): Sansarik ke liye upasana jaroori hai ki nahi? (For the worldly man is austerity necessary or not?) *Prabhupada: Upasana ka kya zaroorat hai. Sva*-dharm ka palan karo. Agar sva-dharm ka palan nahi hota to Bhagavan ke charan mein sharanagat karo. Sva-dharm ka palan koi nahi karta hai. Kaun Brahman ka dharm kaun palan karta hai, koi nahi. (What is the need for austerity? Follow your own prescribed duties. If you cannot follow your own prescribed duties then surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Nobody follows their prescribed duties. Who follows the Brahman dharma , nobody.) *Prabhupāda: Who is practicing this? Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa . If he's acting differently, he should be . . . (break) . . . utilized by the liberated person. Still, we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine . . . the doors will be . . . vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that, "You should give up these four principles: illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. *So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulation, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt . It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty*-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . So this is the only remedy, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you'll find all our students, they have got these beads. We have got these bead. Either we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa. That is also chanting. When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting. Kīrtana , kīrtana means kīrtayati , talking, speaking. *Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Parīkṣit Mahārāja: śrī*-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit (Brs. 1.2.265). The item is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23): about Viṣṇu, to hear and chant. So simply by hearing about Viṣṇu, Parīkṣit Mahārāja became liberated. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane . Vaiyāsaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect kīrtane , by kīrtana . But he . . . he was . . . he did not chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , but he recited Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So that is also kīrtana . Talking of Kṛṣṇa, that is also kīrtana . Kīrtana does not always mean that you have to chan . . . you have to engage yourself always in glorifying the Lord. *Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. He was a busy emperor of the world, but he engaged himself . . . sa vai puṁsām . . . er . . . kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayoḥ. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). He fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. This is first. If you fix up your mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then: sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). And he was talking only, describing and glorifying Vaikuṇṭha. God's another name is Vaikuṇṭha. In Madras they say Veṅkateśvara. *Vaikuṇṭha. Kuṇṭha means anxiety. So God has no anxiety, and God's devotees have no anxiety. Therefore they are vaikuṇṭha . Here in the material world everyone has got anxiety. Therefore it is kuṇṭha , the world of kuṇṭha , anxieties. Everyone—birds, beast, human being—there must be kuṇṭha . So God is Vaikuṇṭha. The vaikuṇṭha*-guṇānuvarṇane . This is also chanting, kīrtana , to describe about Vaikuṇṭha, Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Vaikuṇṭha person, Vaikuṇṭha devotees. *So this is the remedy of bhavauṣadhi . Bhava . Bhava means to take birth. Bhava . This is called bhava*-saṁsāra , this material world. Here bhava , you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-saṁsāra , repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). We living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situation, different position, and in this way wandering up and down, brahmāṇḍa bhramite , within this universe—sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet; sometimes as human being, sometimes as cat, dog; sometimes brāhmaṇa , sometimes śūdra , like that. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that the living entities are wandering like this. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite . Bhramite means wandering. Kona bhāgyavān jīva . One fortunate person, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), by the grace of guru and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one gets the seed of devotional service. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa (CC Madhya 19.152). And when you get a nice seed of plant, you sow it. *So that seed has to be sown within the heart. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare . . . śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . So if we sow the seed within the heart and water it, as the watering requires . . . the watering is this śravaṇa-kīrtana . Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Then it grows. And in due course of time, it gives you the fruit, which is love of Godhead. Then your life is successful. This is the process. So we have to try to sow the seed of devotional service within our heart, and it has to be watered by hearing and chanting. Then gradually it will grow. This is the process. And this is open for everyone. There is no restriction. Indian man (1): And no price. *Prabhupāda: And no price also. Do sabko thoda*-thoda prasad. (Give everyone a little bit of prasad .) Indian man (6): This morning we didn't want to disturb you to have a darśana . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You came in the morning? Indian man (6): I came in the morning. Prabhupāda: You came in the morning, yes. You are for many years here in . . .? Indian man (7): Yes, I have been in this country since about thirteen years. Prabhupāda: Thirteen years? Indian man (7): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, long here. You are for fourteen years? Indian man (8): In 1959. Yes, over fourteen years now. Indian man (6): He has established very well in the insurance business. Indian man (8): Which business? Indian man (7): Insurance. Indian man (6): He has got his own insurance companies. Indian man (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says: "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means . . . (laughter) Indian man (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business. Indian man (8): When you say something "Good . . ." *Prabhupāda: No, good, God is all*-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good. Indian man (8): That is good. Indian man (7): Any business based on ethic is good. *Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sva-karmaṇā , by his own business . . . just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya . So sva-karmaṇā , by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ . *The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first class brāhmaṇas . So this is the verdict: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ ," according to the division of varṇa and āśrama . Four varṇas : brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . And four āśramas : brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa . This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān . . . (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama , at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate . . . but that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. *So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ . You may be a brāhmaṇa . You may be a kṣatriya . You may be a vaiśya . You may be a śūdra . You may be a brahmacārī . You may be a gṛhastha . You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa . It doesn't matter. These division will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama . . . varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example: He was a kṣatriya . He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya , let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful. Indian man (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Kṛṣṇa . . . Indian man (8): Or somebody . . . Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna talked. Indian man (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know . . .? Prabhupāda: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop. Indian man (8): How does he know that he is pleasing God or he's not pleasing God? Prabhupāda: That, that . . . therefore you have to know how to talk with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be possible. You cannot manufacture. And that is that you can talk with Kṛṣṇa by devotion. Indian man (8): Because apparently, you know, to a layman, this killing wasn't an act which will please Kṛṣṇa, and that, what Arjuna did, kill . . . kill so much . . . such a great army and everything, it will . . . normally, you know, a layman would have thought it won't please Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, if you cannot meet Kṛṣṇa, you can meet with Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad*-gītā . Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā . Kṛṣṇa says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha . "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Ikṣvāku." In this way, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam , there is a disciplic succession. *So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. If you talk with the Kṛṣṇa's representative, then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the . . . there is a man, departmental*-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Kṛṣṇa, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot . . . but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. It is not difficult. *The ācāryas are there. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27), Kṛṣṇa says. "All the ācāryas ," māṁ vijānīyān , "they are Myself." Nāvamanyeta karhicit : "Never disregard ācārya ." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāṁ nāvaman . . . na martya*-buddhyāsūyeta . "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa talked, he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme." *So if anyone says, "Kṛṣṇa is supreme," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If somebody says that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. But if somebody says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *Hmm. So Catur*-bhuja, where he has gone? Indian man (8): To bring some prasādam . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (someone enters) Indian man (8): Now, while Bhīṣmadeva was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why he has taken the Kaurava side? Many people ask about . . . he knows Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: First of all give him. Yes. Indian man (8): . . . and still, he took the side of Kauravas in the fight, being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. And he knew that Pāṇḍavas were right and Kauravas were not right. So many times this question has been very . . . Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be killed by the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (8): By God. (background talking while prasādam is served) Prabhupāda: Bring more. Indian man (1): Okay. Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought . . . He expressed that, "Duryodhana . . ." he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious, because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with . . ." Because kṣatriya , this fighting is sporting. You see? That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles that, "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana. They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect . . . so when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed this moral principle. "So one is maintaining me, and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well." Indian man (8): Morally. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (8): That's the question we were discussing. Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it good? Indian man (8): Oh, very nice. We discussed this point in *Bhāgavatam* , and these young boys, they tried to very closely to the point, so that if I put the question before you . . . Prabhupāda: If somebody is maintaining you, and when he's in danger, you go to his enemy's side, that does not look nice. Yes. Otherwise, everyone was on Arjuna's side. Droṇācārya. But they considered like this that, "They have maintained us so long. And now there is fight, and we shall go to the enemy's side. What is this? What people will say? 'Traitors.' " Indian man (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away? Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home, when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" he left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight, because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be . . ." He divided . . . he, by tricks . . . his soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers that, "Why shall I take this one man? I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said: "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said: "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." *Mahābhārata* is very nice. "Greater India." *Mahābhārata* means "The History of Greater India." *Mahābhārata* . Mahā means "greater." Indian man (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and . . . *Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by . . . this is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman— strī—śūdra and dvija-bandhu . Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu . And they are compared with śūdras . *So strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām : for these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Mahābhārata is Vedic literature, but for their understanding . . . they could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. Indian man (9): The Haryana government is constructing very gigantic, you know, temple over there at the birthplace of *Gītā* , at Kurukṣetra. I was there ten days before. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (9): I was there from ten days before at Kurukṣetra. Indian man (8): Kurukṣetra. Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra, yes. And they have decided now that about ten crores of rupees must be spent over there. Revatīnandana: The government of India is constructing a temple there? Is that what you said? Indian man (9): Haryana government is particularly concerned about that, you see. Prabhupāda: Where? In Haryana? Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra. Indian man (8): Actually, that is not by the government. That is by Nanda. No, not . . . the newspaper. That minister. Prabhupāda: You, you can give. (referring to prasādam ) Indian man (7): Nanda. He is, he is the chairman of that. I heard that about him. Prabhupāda: (to server) You give, yes. You, whoever you have not given, you give. She does not know. Indian man (8): To whom you have not given here? Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Give, give others, visitors. Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person? Prabhupāda: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender. Indian man: Thank you. Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. *Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do that. Hmm? He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise, there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully . . . he'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narā . . . *According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas . All the ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre . . . in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā : their knowledge has been taken away by māyā . Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā . Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ . Real thing they do not understand, nor . . . or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi , "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andha yoniṣu (BG 16.19). That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Dviṣataḥ krūrān . They're envious, krūra . "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," they have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue. Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: No ignorant. Purposefully. Indian man (8): Purposeful, knowing that . . . knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it . . . Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least . . . the every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." *This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad*-gītā . . . everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise, where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma . God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya , one eternal, one living being, that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya , eternal. But He is nityo nityānām . He is the chief of the nityas . He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the *Vedas* , and they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are . . . they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that God is impersonal, and everyone can become God, or everyone is God. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi : "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions, they say that, "You can create your God," "You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me. He was supporting Ramakrishna Mission. He said: "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God." Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda ? (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the Western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God," they have accepted it, just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these Westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it, without any argument. Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle? I simply present that "Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swāmījī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing, not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said: They'll not take to it. So, they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. *Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha . . . (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa . So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya ." Faith. This is faith: when one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś . . . and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya : "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā , with this faith one has to begin. *Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā : then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis : then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ : then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ : then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet . . . these are the different stages of sādhaka , of a devotee, how to make progress. *So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva . . . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan that, "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress? Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ , athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. *So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta . . . "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). *Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principle of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning A*-B-C-D. What . . .?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith, but that is required. Revatīnandana: Faith begins from the association of devotees? Prabhupāda: And that, that faith becomes stronger by association. By association of the devotees, the faith becomes stronger. And the more your faith becomes stronger, you make progress. This is the way. Progress means the same faith becoming stronger, stronger, strongest. The same faith. The principle is the same: Kṛṣṇa. Then you know more about Kṛṣṇa. Then you become more faithful. Revatīnandana: Is this faithfulness, is it a product of the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not . . . unless you take it seriously . . . then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness . . . that, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively. Revatīnandana: Sometimes the . . . Kṛṣṇa says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why . . . *Prabhupāda: No, I'm . . . that is generally, unless one becomes in goodness. But bhakti*-mārga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaitukī apratihatā. Ahaitukī. Apratihatā . Nothing can check bhakti-mārga . Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaitukī apratihatā . Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material . . . these goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions. Revatīnandana: Why is it, then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it? Prabhupāda: That is his choice. Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition? Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept. Indian man (10): So does faith develop from accepting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state. (pause) (aside) Get the lights on. Revatīnandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself. Whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from . . . whether to accept or reject Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee. Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): He's just asking for your blessings . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): Your blessings, Swāmījī, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems. Indian man (11): Personal family problem. I am now . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man (2): I told him . . . Prabhupāda: Bas yeh chanting hai Hare Kṛṣṇa nāma ka. Bās. Bhavauṣadhi abhi to bataya tha. (Only this chanting is there, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Only medicine for the material disease. I told you just now.) bhavauṣadhi , medicine of all material diseases. This distressed condition of material world is a diseased condition, and this is the remedy. Sab milkar isme to aapka koi kharch nahi hai, nuksaan nahi hai. Sab family members baithkar Hare Krishna naam ka jaap kijiye. (There is no expenditure in this. All family members should sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupada: Disease hai, agar davai nahi lenge to kya hoga. To jiska deemag kharab hai usko uska kya kiya ja sakta hai. (The disease is there and if you don't take medicine then what will happen? If a person is insane what can be done of him?) Indian man (7): To eradicate the disease, it needs some planning. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (7): To eradicate disease, it needs counteraction. Prabhupāda: This is recited from the śāstra , bhavauṣadhi . This is the only disease, uh, only remedy. You have not got to spend anything or purchase anything. Neither is there loss. Why not try for some time. Indian man (7): Remedy. Devotee: Because it's free, that's why they're hesitating. (laughter) Indian man (1): That's nice. Indian man (11): Chaliye. (Let's go.) Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you. Whenever few times . . . Indian man (7): It's a pleasure, sir, to have your darśana . Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Indian man (8): You can come in the morning. We have got . . . Guru Mahārāja speaks in the morning, Bhagavad*-gītā classes. Prabhupāda: Morning we have lecture. Indian man (7): Morning I can chant Kṛṣṇa's name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to . . .? Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulation, and other things. But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Droṇācārya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly, you can practice—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man (3): Swāmījī, tomorrow is Guru*-pūrṇimā , and a friend of mine, his father or his mother died, you see, on Ekādaśī day. Husband and wife both, they had been fasting Ekādaśī , doing satya-nārāyaṇa-kathā . So now father, he is very lonely, and he said: "I have got no guru ." Then I told about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning, to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation? Prabhupāda: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand . . . *Indian man (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Guru*-pūrṇimā . That's why I thought if tomorrow . . . Indian man (8): If he deserves it. Prabhupāda: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see. Indian man (3): Tomorrow morning? Ācchā . The beads, Swāmījī. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office? Prabhupāda: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market. *Haṁsadūta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupāda just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat*-eating—meat, fish, eggs—and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. So anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as . . . Indian guest: As effective as it would be. Haṁsadūta: Exactly. Indian man (4): So what you're saying is that there's no harm by his . . . *Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . that will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhā . According to śāstra , these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult. Indian man (3): Swāmījī? Tea and coffee's also included? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pāna . . . chāi , pāna . Pāna , pāna means intoxication. Dhūmra*-pāna . *Indian man (7): Dhūmra*-pāna . Indian man (2): And what about supāri , Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also ingredient of pāna . Pāna , it is called pāna . Indian man (2): I offered Vaikuṇṭhajī supāri . You see, he won't accept it. So I thought, well, it only helps digestion, because it only brings the saliva in the mouth. Prabhupāda: Well, wine is also very digestive. (laughter) An appetizer also. All Europeans, they take first of all wine to eat voraciously. I see in the airplane. And after taking wine, they eat so much. Indian man (8): And then they go for dancing to digest it. *Prabhupāda: Simple life. Simple life, innocent life . . . because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair . . . (SB 10.1.4). There is another verse quoted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). *Bhagavad*-bhajana , those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead . . . pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya , on the other side of this material world, for him . . . viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca , hā hanta ha hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicide. So material things, viṣaya , simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, this is material activity. Indian man (8): Defense? *Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means . . . just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28): "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām , "and always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28): "He becomes freed from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed up in My service." *So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ anta*-gataṁ pāpam . Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana . Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex . . . if you can . . . if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya , little tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya , austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student that, "You have to follow this." And that's all. Indian man (4): . . . kon shomoy apni dekha deben, kalke na kon shomoy? (. . . at what time can I meet you tomorrow? . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kal othoba . . . (Tomorrow or . . .) Indian man (4): Kal shokale ami ashbo. (I will come tomorrow morning.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian man (1): In the evening tomorrow, Swāmījī, have you got any special program or . . . Prabhupāda: No, anyone can come after four. Indian man (1): Four to . . .? Prabhupāda: Four to six. Revatīnandana: I think tomorrow evening there'll be special . . . some special guests coming. Tomorrow evening. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Revatīnandana: Not tomorrow . . . Prabhupāda: No, you are also welcome. You are also welcome. Indian man (5): Some people they work, you see, seven days of the week. Indian man (8): Sunday night? Indian man (5): No, Sunday is tomorrow. So they wanted to come. Revatīnandana: Yeah, except tomorrow evening, I . . . Śyāmasundara's arranging a very special conference. And I don't think . . . *Prabhupāda: That's all right. They also come and hear what is . . . it is open to everyone. Our special conference: Bhagavad*-bhakti . Guests: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (5): Otherwise, you know, we are disallowed . . . Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): . . . without your permission, then. Prabhupāda: They will also hear. Yes. Savere ayiyega. (Come in the morning.) Jaya. Indian man (5): Yes . . . savere aunga. (. . . I will come in the morning.) Indian man (4): . . . shokale ashte pari? Kon shomoy . . . (. . . can I come in the morning? At what time . . .) Prabhupāda: Joto shokale ashte paren. (As early as you can.) Indian man (4): Accha . . . (indistinct) . . . ami ghum theke uthte pari na. (Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . I am unable to get up early.) Prabhupāda: Paro na? (Are you unable to get up?) (aside) Raho idhar . . . brahmachari . . . (Stay here . . . celibate monk . . .) Prabhupāda: Aap kahan ka rehne wala hai? (Where are you from?) Punjab? Indian man (5): I'm a Hindu. Prabhupāda: You are Hindu, but which province? Indian man (5): I come from . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . and my father's from . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, Guyana. That South America. Indian man (5): No. My father's from India. My mother's from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (5): No, they come from Jalandhar. Prabhupāda: Jalandhar, Punjab. Indian man (5): Yes. And . . . Prabhupāda: What you are doing here? Indian man (5): Well I have come . . . I'm working at the moment, yeah. I'm working at the moment. Prabhupāda: Working? Indian man (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: What work? Indian man (5): Well I'm on the . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . hotel. In the kitchen working, all the washing up, and the supervising and things. You know, my father's seen you. He's come and seen you a bit. *Prabhupāda: Ma*-phal? Indian man (5): My father. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (5): He's come around here. I think he came in London, to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple in London. He came there . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . all . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this thing has really gone into my mind. And I don't drink, no meat, nothing else. Prabhupāda: You don't eat meat? Indian man (5): Nothing. No drink, no . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, very good boy. Indian man (5): Horrible. (break) Prabhupāda: Ready to sacrifice your hair? Indian man (5): Well, I did before. Revatīnandana: Not yet. (laughter) Indian man (1): Is it compulsory to have a full consciousness that he must shave his head? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is formality. But he must be prepared to observe formality also. But if it is very much objectionable, sometimes we excuse. Indian man (7): Now I have finished my one year, one year and one week, or something, for my practice, you know. So I'll be taking before and next year. Still, I . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, you can come any time. Indian man (7): Now it's 360 . . . 73 or 72 days now, so I'm counting the days. Prabhupāda: Unko mila prasad. Prasad khilaya? Khaya? (They got prasad . You served prasad ? Did you eat?) Prabhupāda: Dekhiye jo bimari hoti hai aur agni jo hota hai usko bilkul na karna chahiye aur koi agar samjhe thoda sa aag hai chalo thik hai, jal jayega voh aadat bhi badh jayega. Isi tarah bimar bhi thoda sa he, aise nahi pura usko khatam karo. Isi prakar . . . (See, if there is a fire and there is an illness, they should be immediately driven away. If someone ignores it thinking that the fire is very small then everything will get burned down. Similarly, instead of taking the disease very lightly, one must uproot it completely. In the same way . . .) debts. He thinks, "Oh, this is small debt." No, sometimes it becomes, compound interest, big amount. So therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these three things must be finished by the root: agni and vyādhi and ṛṇa . We should not neglect. Indian man (7): What is that? Agni . . .? Prabhupāda: Agni , vyādhi , disease, and ṛṇa , debts. You should not neglect it. You should finish it. Indian man (8): Before it's increased more. I remember it's only few weeks . . . Revatīnandana: Fire? Fire, disease and debts. Prabhupāda: Debts. One should not neglect. Indian man (6): You don't drink tea, do you? No tea? Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (8): No tea, coffee, no . . . Indian man (7): I know. I stopped coffee because I don't have it often in my office staff. But tea, still, I'm thinking to leave the tea, you know. I see that Prabhupāda will ask me to give up everything, you know. (laughs) Revatīnandana: You'll have to replace it with something higher. When you want a cup of tea, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's how I stopped smoking cigarettes. Indian man (7): Oh, my God. You can . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . us . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . stop smoking. Prabhupāda: No, no. Nahi who sab thik ho jayega. (No, everything will be fine.) "Where there is a will, there is a way." Koi mushkil nahi hai. (It is not difficult.) Indian man (7): So when I shall take the whole promise? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (7): When I shall take the whole, the whole of what everything is to do this . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, at any time, when you are ready. Indian man (8): (indistinct Hindi) . . . any time. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Subashya shigram . . . mrtyu kala haranam . Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko milne ke liye rishi muni log kitna tapasya kiye hazaaron varsh tapasya. (To meet God, the saints and mendicants—did penance for thousands of years.) (break) . . . polluted, and we have to deal with them. Indian man (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee . . . "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh, no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, when I was gṛhastha , so they offered tea, I said: "I don't take tea." Then they said: "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water, that sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality. Indian man (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know. Indian man (8): Hospitality means prasādam . Prabhupāda: Hospitality means first of all, he should ask, "What can I offer you?" This is hospitality. Indian man (8): Naturally, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that, "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter) Indian man (8): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. Hospitality is first. According to our Indian system, Aap kya lenge? (What will you have?) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water," or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality. Indian man (9): (indistinct Hindi) . . . somebody comes to my place . . . Prabhupāda: So you should ask, "What can I offer you?" Indian man (9): . . . say, "A cup of tea will do." Then? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man (9): We cannot give him cup of tea. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot give that, "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter) Indian man (8): No tea now. Why do you keep that tea in the house? Prabhupāda: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandeṣa or some sweetmeat or . . . what is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him . . . there are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered? Is it very nice preparation? Indian man (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want . . . Prabhupāda: I want things are nice, but . . . Indian man (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea. *Prabhupāda: They might have gone to hell, but I am not . . . (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat*-prasāda . We are offering our bhagavat-prasādam . Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all. Indian man (9): No, what I have been asked . . . I take the full consciousness, but wife takes half, and children, they didn't take it, so they want a cup of coffee. One boy wants cup of coffee, the girl wants a cup of tea and . . . Prabhupāda: Well, the . . . Indian man (9): But the . . . and when the . . . that is the . . . this is the problem . . . Prabhupāda: This happened in my life . . . this happened in my life. Revatīnandana: Listen. Listen. Listen. Prabhupāda: My wife was taking tea. So I asked her not to take tea, not to take tea. But she didn't care, husband. Then I gave her final, that "Either you have to give up your tea or your husband." (laughter) So she agreed to give up husband, not tea. (laughter) So I left my home. That's all. (laughter) Indian man (8): Due to tea! Indian man (9): There won't be any place for me to go now. Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is . . . habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas : brahmacārī , gṛhastha , vānaprastha , sannyāsa . Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha . His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī . Indian man (1): He is lucky. Prabhupāda: Yes, lucky. Indian man (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there. Prabhupāda: He has good wife, good children, all favorable for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He does not . . . Indian man (8): This is Prabhupāda's mercy really. Indian man (1): No, but, that I'm saying . . . Indian man (8): We have been living fourteen years in this country. They were brought up here, and they never touched tea. They were brought up here, school education and all that, fourteen years . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in England, in London. Indian man (8): And I must say they are advancing more than me, really. I am still the same stage; by Prabhupāda's grace, they are advancing more—get up early in the morning, four o'clock, take bath . . . Prabhupāda: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife . . . his wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhur na gṛham ucyate . Just like we are also living within a room, gṛha . But we are sannyāsī . What is the difference between gṛhastha and sannyāsī ? He lives with his wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī means the wife is gṛha . So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyāsī . No. Why? There is no necessity. Gṛhe vā vanete thāko . Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha , the life must be dedicated for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is required. And for Kṛṣṇa's sake if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job? If Kṛṣṇa wants that "You give up this habit," . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . if you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa . . . now, Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So Kṛṣṇa wants that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , "Vegetable, milk, rice, grains, you can give Me." So you have to please Kṛṣṇa. You live on this, what Kṛṣṇa says, and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That's all. (people entering room) Aiye. Sab aiye idhar aiiye . . . hamara makaan bahut bada hai sabko . . . (Come here all of you . . . our house is very big . . .) *"My dear boy, what best learning you have learned?" He was child, boy. So he said, tat sādhu manye 'sura*-varya dehināṁ sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5): "My dear father . . ." He did not address father as "Father"; *he addressed him as asura*-varya , "the best of the asuras ." Indian man (8): "Best of the asuras ." *Prabhupāda: Yes, "best of the asuras ." Asura*-varya. Varya means the best. And asura . . . because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya . . ." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām : "Anyone who has accepted this material body . . ." Dehinām , he has said. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām : "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animal, birds, beast. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām . Why? Asad-grahāt . "Because they have accepted this material body." *Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvātma*-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam , hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). "They should not be satisfied with these society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on, and we are after that. But there . . . there is no possibility. Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, harim āśrayeta , there is no possibility. The whole world is trying to adjust things of the society, friendship, love and material atmosphere. That cannot be. That is not possible. Only by taking shelter . . . *Therefore Kṛṣṇa says. Not whimsically. That is the only remedy: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the only remedy. There is no other remedy. But they'll not take. What can be done? This is the only remedy: harim āśrayeta . One should take shelter of Hari, Kṛṣṇa. Then he'll be happy. Otherwise it is not possible. Indian man (6): Then we'll come in morning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ramanath. Tumhara naam kya hai. (What is your name?) Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . (end) Conversation -- July 14, 1973, London Indian man (1): But if an animal kills, he kills for food. Indian man (2): Another one, Guru Mahārāja, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over. Prabhupāda: Wherever. This is our advertisement. Indian man (2): Advertisement . . . Prabhupāda: Demonstration of world religion. Indian man (2): World religion. Prabhupāda: This is world religion. Indian man (2): But what inside . . . they say religion and moral education books, and all this . . . so actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. And our organization, not theirs, those . . . confusing the people. Prabhupāda: No, they are taking. Indian man (2): People are recognizing that this is very important. They say: "the world religion," and this is the tool. They say, well, the tool, "Here is the new tool for religion education in the secondary schools." So they are recognizing this fact. Prabhupāda: Without canvassing, people join. Indian man (2): This is the fact here, see. *Prabhupāda: And the world religion . . . the Ratha*-yātrā, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there? Indian man (1): No, I was not. Prabhupāda: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasādam . And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that . . . Devotee: Several pictures . . . *Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha*-yātrā is Rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. Toh hum India jaata toh humko bolta, "aap toh Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya." (When I go to India, some say that, "You have destroyed the Hindu religion.") Indian man (1): Hindu dharm ko badha diya toh naash karna! (You have increased the Hindu religion and they say that you have destroyed it.) Prabhupāda: Woh humko sab bolta hai, "aap toh naash kar diya. Bhaktivedanta Swami Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya. Sab mleccha logo ko jaaneoo de deta hai." (They say: "You have destroyed everything. Bhaktivedanta Swami has destroyed Hindu religion. He gives the sacred thread to the mlecchas .") Indian man: Aaj ek article dekha tha . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly mei. Toh woh uska heading thaa (Today I saw an article in the . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly. The heading was) "Envy, our national character." Envy, lot of envy. If you are successful or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous. Prabhupāda: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you. Indian man (1): Woh jealous hai isliye kahenge ki "aapne yeh dharm prachaar kyun kiya aur Hindu dharm ka aapne sab khatam kar diya." Aapko kehte hain, hindu dharm aapne khatam kar diya. Toh woh jealous karte hain. (They are jealous so they will ask, "Why did you try to preach Hindu religion and spoil it completely as a result?" They tell you that you have finished Hindu religion. So they are jealous.) Jealousy and Envy. Prabhupāda: Kaun bolta hai? (Who says that?) Indian man: Jo bhi bolte hain. (Whoever it may be.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Indian man: Aaj kal dharm ka business bana rakha hai logo ne. Jidhar bhi jaao . . . (Nowadays people have made religion into business. Wherever one goes . . .) *Prabhupāda: Dharm toh ek hi hai. (There is only one religion.) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat*-praṇītam ( SB 6.3.19): "Religion is given by God." Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. Jo Bhagwan ki di hui hai woh religion hai. Bhagwan ka kya kehna hai, (There is no other religion. Only that which is given by God is religion. What does God say?) Sarva-dharmān parityajya , mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So this is religion. Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagati. Toh hum log toh asal religion de raha hoon, Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagat hoye. Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. (To surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. We are giving the actual religion which is surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. All other ideas are not religion.) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2): "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? *This is religion. That is first*-class religion, which teaches bhakti , yato bhaktir adhokṣaje , to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja . Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to " kṣa ," whatever experience we have got . . . or akṣa means eyes, senses. *So within sense perception, whatever is there . . . God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhokṣaja. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje . That is first*-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as kaitava . And Śrīdhara Svāmī gives his comments on this kaitava : chala-dharma . Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, mokṣa-vāñchāpi nirastam . That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called mokṣa . Dharma-artha-kāma-mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90). *Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and then merge into the effulgence, mokṣa , liberation. So Śrīdhara Svāmī says up to mokṣa*-vāñchā is cheating, kaitava . Up to mokṣa-vāñchā. Mokṣa-vāñchāpy atra nirastam , kevala bhagavad-upāsanā . That is dharma . That is real dharma . Bhagavad-upāsanā . So we are teaching that religion, bhagavad-upāsanā , simply. We have no such ambition, to be elevated to the heavenly planet or to merge into the Brahman effulgence. No! We can live anywhere, even in the hell. It doesn't matter. But our worship of Kṛṣṇa shall continue. This is our religion. So we are not ambitious to go to heaven or higher planetary system or higher standard of life. We have no such ambition. We simply want Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, that's all. Never mind where it is. This is real dharma . Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje . So this boy has become your celā (disciple). He's very nice boy. What is his name? Dhruvānanda? Or his father's name. What is your name? Dhruvānanda: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Heh? Devotee: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. Yes. Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Indian man (2): Aur darshan karne aaye the. (We have come to see you . . .) Prabhupāda: Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kidhar se aaye hain aap? (Where have you come from?) You are coming from where? Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man (2): His . . . there's a place here, His. Prabhupāda: Oh. Aapka toh woh reading hai na? (Don't you have a reading here?) Indian man (3): Prajapati. Aap gaye the? Yeh India chale gaye the, abhi parso aaye laut ke, Tuesday ko. (Did you visit? He had gone to India and returned the day before yesterday, on Tuesday.) Prabhupāda: Accha. Sab ghar mei theek thaak hai na? (Alright. So, is everyone doing well in your home?) Indian man (2) : Woh abhi sab India mei hi hai. (All of them are in India.) Prabhupāda: India mei hain abhi sab? (Is everyone in India right now?) Indian man (2): Sab bacche wahin chale gaye the. (Everyone went there along with their children.) Indian man (3): Hum log wahan settle hone gaye the. (We went there to get settled.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Indian man (2): Phir laut ke yahin aaye. Wahan nahi rehne diya logo ne. (But we came back because people did not allow us to stay there.) Prabhupāda: Rehne nahi diya? (Did not allow you to stay?) Indian man (2): Nahi diya rehne wahan. (They did not allow us to stay.) Kya baat hai? (What's the matter?) Badaa takleef hoga. (Lots of problems.) Prabhupāda: Kidhar? Rajasthan mein gya tha? (Where? Did you go to Rajasthan?) Indian man (2): Nahi, Rajasthan nahi. Dehradun mei gaye the. (No, not Rajasthan. We had gone to Dehradun.) Prabhupāda: Dehradun, toh takleef hua udhar? Kya baat hai? (Dehradun, so did you face any difficulty there? What is the matter?) Indian man (2): Udhar har cheez ka takleef hai. Khaane ko nahi milta hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mei zyada takleef hai. (There is difficulty in everything. You do not get to eat . . . (indistinct) . . . has more problems.) Everything. Prabhupāda: Baat kariye. (Discuss it.) Idhar se koi jaaye toh iske liye reheno ko . . . (If someone goes from here, it is very difficult . . .) Indian man (3): Woh rehta nahi hai. (He does not stay there.) Indian man (2): Everybody thinks you know . . . you are coming from abroad, you've got a lot of foreign things. They should have it. Everybody comes in that attitude. So if he's not . . . Prabhupāda: Ye log ko itna loot ta hai, yeh American log ko, hamara. Woh Mayapur mei, estimate hua hai, yeh 15 lakh rupiya kharcha hoga. Hum janta hai 10 lakh rupiya toh yeh log khaa gya. Itna thagata hai. (They rob these people so much, our American men. In Māyāpur, it has been estimated that 15 lakhs will be spent. I know they have used at least 10 lakhs out of that. They cheat so much.) Indian man (2): Kaun? (Who?) Prabhupāda: Contractor, yehi sab. (This contractor and everyone else.) Indian man (2): Aur material toh kharab lagaya hua lagta hai. Apka Vrindavan woh mandir bhi dekh ke aaye the hum. Ban raha thaa. Apke wahan jo devotees the unse bhi mil ke aaye. (And the material used seems to be of bad quality. We had also visited your temple in Vṛndāvana. Construction was going on. We also met the devotees present there.) Prabhupāda: Bahut thagaa, ab kya kahen? (They cheat so much, now what to say?) Indian man (2): Baki yeh India mei settle hone ka vichaar apke sang par aane ke baad hi hua hamara. Thoda spiritual line mei interest ho gya. Humne socha India mei . . . (Rest, we decided to return to India after coming in contact with you. We got a little interested in spirituality. We thought that in India . . .) Prabhupāda: Nahi, kahin bhi rahiye . . . (No, wherever you stay . . .) Indian man (2): Kuch humein aisa vaham ho gya tha ki Indian mei jaane se zyada spiritualism milega. (We actually had this misconception that if we go to India we will get more spiritualism.) And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, and I have come back. I think the life is more peaceful here than it is in India. Prabhupāda: Nahi theek hai. Ye hamara bhi opinion hai. India toh aise hi hai. (No, that's alright. I also have the same opinion. India is like that.) Indian man (3): It's more peaceful. Prabhupāda: . . . koi gentleman ka rehena ka jagah nahi hai . . . (Not a place for gentlemen to live.) Especially in Bengal, all they have turned to be rogues. Student or family . . . Indian man (3): Due to poverty, Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Nahi, culture nasht kar diya. (No, they have destroyed the culture.) Indian man (3): Culture nasht. (Culture destroyed.) Prabhupāda: Poverty kya hai? Sabhi ko, kutta ko khaane ko milta hai. Ye koi . . . (What is poverty? Everyone, even dogs get something to eat. Is this . . .) poverty is not question. Indian man (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character. Prabhupāda: Yeh jo . . . jo kuch hi khaao, jo kuch karo, dharma se koi vichaar nahi hai. (All this . . . eat whatever you want, do whatever you want, have no concern about dharma .) They have no idea about Vedic . . . they are supposed to be preaching Vedānta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedānta . Indian man (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama Tirtha. But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy. Prabhupāda: Rama Tirtha also, he gave stress on oṁkāra . Is it not? Oṁkāra ? *Indian man (1): Hmm. I think he is more on this karma*-yoga . He believes that you should . . . Unhone Japan mei ek lecture diya thaa. (He had given a lecture in Japan.) 'Secret of success' or something like that. I think it is in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that . . . *Indian man (3): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Toh India mei kitna din thehra? (So how long did you stay in India?) Indian man (3): Main nau mahina raha. (I stayed for nine months.) First I went there . . . Prabhupāda: So you have got your own house there, Dehradun? Indian man (3): No, I tried to buy a house, and I paid a deposit and everything. I wanted to buy the house. Then I came to England to raise the money. I raised the money and I went back to India. And by the time I went back, there were four litigations going on the house. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. (laughter) Indian man (1): "I got this right on this house," "I got right . . ." *Indian man (3): There were four litigations going on that house, and, you know, they all wanted the possession of the empty, vacant part of that house. I mean it was part*-possession property. They all wanted possession of the vacant part. Prabhupāda: Then what happened? Indian man (3): So anyway, fortunately, the vendor also told me he doesn't want to sell. I said: "Thanks to God." So he gave me the money back . . . Prabhupāda: So you returned. That's nice. Indian man (3): . . . and I got out of it. I was lucky, really, you know. Prabhupāda: Aise hi Bombay mei hum logo ko fasaa diya. (We are trapped like this in Bombay.) Indian man (1): Kahan? Krishna land? Accha, kya hua udhar? (Where? Kṛṣṇa land? Okay, what happened there?) Indian man (3): So I was very lucky, really. Prabhupāda: Bhavant. (Litigation is going on.) Indian man (1): Blitz mein aapke bare mein aaya tha, hamne padha. (I read an article about you that appeared in the Blitz .) Prabhupāda: Humlog abhi tak possession nahi liye hain. (They have not given us possession.) Woh hamne pehle socha tha itna leniency de raha hai kya karan hai. Us samay man tha rupya paisa jo kuch hai possession unse le liya jaye. (This thought came to us right at the beginning, why is he behaving so leniently with us? It was because he wanted to take whatever money we have.) Indian man: Khali possession nahi aaya hai. Public peeche pad gaya, Jahan jaata hai card laga ke aa jata hai. (Only possession is not given until now. The public is also after him. Wherever he goes, he leaves his card behind.) Prabhupada: Kya sena hai, Shiv Sena aapko maloom hai vo hamara paksh main hai. (What sena is it? Shiv Sena. They are in our favor.) Indian man: Shiv Sena jinke paksh mein ho jayega voh jeetega bahut strong hai. (Whichever party is favored by Shiv Sena, that emerges victorious. It is very strong.) Prabhupada: Uska jo leader hai . . . Musalman log yahan bahut hain, kya baat hai. Musalman bhi hamara paksh mein hain. Kya baat hai, mandir barbad karna? (Their leader is . . . even the Muslims are in our favour. What's the matter, destroying the temple?) Indian man: Krishna aapke paksh mein hain. (Kṛṣṇa is on your side.) Prabhupāda: Sirf Congress opposition mein hai. (Only Congress is in opposition.) Indian man: Aapke saath sabse shaktishaali aadmi hai. (You have the strongest man on your side.) Prabhupāda: Hum to wohi keh rahe hain. Agar Gita mein kuch matlab hai to possession le lo aur Bhagwan ko betha do. (That is what I am saying. If there is any meaning in the *Gītā* then take possession and establish God there.) Indian man: Bhagvan ko nahi hata sakte. (They cannot remove the Lord.) Indian man: Jiska bhi paisa liya hai . . . (Whosoever's money he has taken . . .) Prabhupāda: Husband jhagda karte karte mar hi gaya ab wife jhagda kar rahi hai. (Husband died fighting, now his wife is continuing the fight.) (break) Prabhupāda: Otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said: "It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra ; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. Koi agar doctor ke paas jaata hai to poochta nahi ki kaun jaat? (If someone goes to a doctor, no one asks about the caste of the doctor.) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa , a śūdra . It doesn't matter. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . just like Śaṅkarācārya, Unka yehi condition tha. (He had only one condition.) First of all, you become sannyāsa . Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa . Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha , it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa." (referring to young boy) So he's Dhruvānanda? Indian man (1): Dhruvānanda. Guests: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. And what is your father's name? Dhruvānanda: Devadatta. Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: Devadatta. Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: And your mother's name? Dhruvānanda: Draupadī. Indian man (3): Draupadī. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That D*-D-D. All "D". Indian man: Aap hi ne to diya naam. (You have only named them.) Prabhupāda: Jaroorat aavishkar ki maa hai. Yeh accha jagah hai. (Need is the mother of invention. This is a very nice place.) Indian man: Mausam bhi itna kharab nahi hai. (Weather is also not so bad.) Prabhupāda: Subah mein morning walk hota hai. (I go for a morning walk.) Indian man: Kya yahan karyakram hai aapka? (What's your schedule here?) Prabhupāda: Dictaphone aur jo koi aaya usse baatchit karna. Ek ghanta class leta hoon saat baje. (Dictaphone and whoever comes, I preach. I take a one hour class at seven.) Indian man (3): That was a determination to learn. One has got the . . . he has written his own . . . his conclusion . . . Indian man (1): (indistinct) . . . what was Droṇācārya. He has taken his thumb for nothing actually. Indian man (3): No, that was his test. Indian man (1): In order to please Arjuna. Indian man (3): In order to please Arjuna. And that was his test. And that was his determination, that he rejected, and he learned the science, just, uh, faith. Prabhupāda: In material world, such competition is there. Indian man (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual world. That is material. So Droṇācārya gave Arjuna the benediction that "You shall be the greatest archer." So in order to keep his promise, he made that . . . Indian man (1): That wasn't, I think, what he did. (Paramahaṁsa or someone else enters) Paramahaṁsa: Śyāmasundara . . . Śyāmasundara is not in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is that? Devotee: Oh, this is just a little preparation, burfī and a little khīr . Indian man (3): Can't you bring in the plate like that? Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Devotee: I tried to find a plate. There's no . . . should I leave it here? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Indian man (3): So, so many stories he had memorized, and he started writing and asking many questions, Prabhupāda, so I'm not . . . but he has got the talent that if he'll get the right guidance and all this, he can easily translate *Mahābhārata*, many stories in the book shape, in different articles, which can very much help in our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): And for six weeks, seven weeks, his holiday, he can remain. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll remain here. Indian man (3): Remain here. There is no problem. Then how he can develop it? So now you are quite free in next . . . alright? And he has memorized almost all your bhajana, everything. Prabhupāda: Very good. Indian man (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least he's on the right path. Prabhupāda: Everyone can be on the right path, provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path. (pause) Indian man (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the āśrama . Do you run sort of a school for them all? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them. Prabhupāda: Hmm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care. Indian man (1): How many children are here? Prabhupāda: (to Dhruvānanda) You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there. Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, why? There is . . . go and sleep. Indian man (1): Go and sleep? Prabhupāda: Yes, go and sleep. Take rest. Go on. Indian man (3): You know, Prabhupāda, when you came to my house that evening . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? *Indian man (3): You had hari*-kīrtana at our house and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): We had a very funny incident after you left. After two or three days, my young daughter, you know . . . she's about two or two and a half at that time. She was sitting in one corner of the house, and she, you know those cups like this you have to have, to keep under the furniture legs, you know, cup like this, she had two of them, and she was doing like that. And, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Karatālas . Indian man (3): My daughter. I asked her, you know, "What are you doing?" She replied quietly, "I'm doing Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (3): So that, you know, really hit me hard, and I thought, "Look, one day's sat*-saṅga can have that effect on life, how much bigger effect it would have . . ." Prabhupāda: Intelligent, this is intelligent. Indian man (3): ". . . if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say: "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really strike me. Prabhupāda: No, you can attend here. You remain here. *Indian man (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat*-saṅga, first time in her life. Prabhupāda: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the . . . therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction. Indian man (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know. Prabhupāda: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children; they dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras . What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Bhakta Viśvareta. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Oh, he'll fall flat just like . . . and he will chant all these mantras : " Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale . . ." A small child at three years old. You see. Indian man (1): I mean, advancement has very . . . Indian man (3): Good association. Indian man (1): . . . effect, you know, on the mind. Prabhupāda: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh? Satsvarūpa: Just . . . it's not very difficult. It's just that we have . . . there is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his . . . so we're bringing children from other countries. Indian man (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls? Satsvarūpa: No, boys and girls. Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there? Satsvarūpa: Up to fifteen, yes. Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there? Prabhupāda: Well, as far as possible. Indian man (3): As far as possible. Do you have any prospectus or anything about that school? Satsvarūpa: Yes, I have literature. Indian man (3): You have literature about that school? Prabhupāda: He's in charge. Indian man (3): You are in charge of that school? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): I see. Can I ask . . . Prabhupāda: But tell . . . he has started. Indian man (3): You have started that school? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda started it. (laughter) Indian man (3): Yes. Could you sometime tell me about that school? Satsvarūpa: Sure, later we can talk. Prabhupāda: There are good teachers. We are teaching Sanskrit and English especially. Indian man (3): They teach Sanskrit, English? Prabhupāda: That is all. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature, which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, ārati , worship of the Deity, and they play mṛdaṅga , they chant, they join Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. They are not meant for any technology. Indian man (3): No. Prabhupāda: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brāhmaṇa , not for become technologist. Technologist, there are many. Indian man (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only business of human life. Indian man (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of a spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. (break) . . . I believe in Aurobindo's āśrama also they have some sort of school. You know about Aurobindo's āśrama in Pondicherry? Indian man (3): There are so many. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Indian man (1): I have not been there. I just heard about it. Prabhupāda: Actual spiritual life, unless you (break) Indian man (1): I tried to read this Aurobindo philosophy. It's too difficult for me . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): I found it too difficult for me to understand. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā ? Indian man (1): No, Aurobindo philosophy, I was reading . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, nobody can understand. Simply he can understand. Indian man (1): So difficult. Prabhupāda: It is meant for him. *Indian man (4): You read Guru Mahārāja's Bhagavad*-gītā , so simple. Even the child can understand who knows English. (break) Why the poor animals should be killed? They have got equal rights. But these rascals, they will not give equal rights. (break) . . . "National" means one who is born in that land. The animals are born in that land. Man is also born in that land. Trees are also born in that land. But they are not national. Only human beings national. Imperfect knowledge. Indian man (4): In Luton, before eighty years . . . when I was reading the history of Luton, on the page number 176 it was written that there was a great shortage of food before eighty years, and in some place people were cutting their own children and eating. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Indian man (4): This is written. If you like that book, I can send you. So the non*-vegetarians . . . Prabhupāda: Cutting their children? *Indian man (4): Cutting their own children, killing them and eat them. In some private places in Luton, where I am residing now. The history of Luton has been published by the County Borough of Luton. The non*-vegetarian food leaved them to such an extent that they couldn't stay without the meat, and they had to cut their own children. Now we are vegetarian. I have never tasted any meat. I don't know the taste of it. Still, we all exist on vegetables, all sorts of vegetables. Prabhupāda: The same thing happened in Kanpur in a hotel. One man was eating meat, and he found a little finger . . . Indian man (4): Finger of some . . . Indian man (2): That was in the Bombay, in the Vile Parle, in my place, where I was living. Prabhupāda: Oh! Indian man (4): Newspaper meat . . . mein dekha. Hamare Ville Parle mein bhi hua. (I saw meat . . . in Ville Parle also it happened.) Indian man (2): This gentleman went to the hotel and found a small finger. Prabhupāda: Small children cut up. And there was another case in Calcutta. The, one Chinaman, he was eating human being. And then . . . (break) . . . some Kancawala (rag picker) him called, and then captured and killed him. This was going on. Later on, when police inquiry was made, so many human . . . Indian man (2): Bones . . . Indian man (4): Skeletons. Prabhupāda: . . . bones, skeletons was found. In Africa there are still cannibals. Indian man (4): Oh, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America as well. Prabhupāda: South America also? In India also. Indian man (1): That, these . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. In Assam side. Indian man (1): This Assam, some of the places. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They eat human beings. Nara*-buli, sacrifice human being, still there is a class of men. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America, they take a human being, from the head down, they eat. Then the head, they shrink it until it becomes very small, and this is a great prize. *Indian man (2): Television mein bhi dikhaya tha. Who chote chote khopadi hain usko sukha dete hain aur number se laga dete hain. ek sau*-do sau. Yeh sab dikha dete hain, South-America mein kya? (It was shown on the television. There are small dried skulls, displayed chronologically 100 to 200. They show all this on the television. In South America, isn't it?) Prabhupāda: Just like you, you keep the tiger's face after killing. Indian man (2): Chota ho jata hai. Han, vaise hi. (It becomes small. Yes, just like that.) Indian man (5): Does this food make effect on a human nature? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Indian man (5): These non*-vegetarian foods and things like that. They definitely make effect on a human nature and behavior. *Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. George Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book: You Are What You Eat. So eating has got effect. Sāttvikāhāra or . . . unless one is in the sāttvika position, he cannot understand about self*-realization. It is not possible. Indian man (5): The human beings get dreams, and what's the lesson between the dreams and the actual life? Suppose I have a dream at night . . . Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body. Indian man (5): It has nothing to do with the human . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, dream . . . just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara . They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara , but they do not have any education about this dehāntara . *Indian man (5): Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara*-gataṁ , paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā , yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam , tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye . *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that, "I'll have to change my this body; *then what kind of body I'm going to get next life," that next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such*-and-such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know, "Then what shall I do next? I have to work." So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body . . . just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think, "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. *So that is also described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ . You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā . If you want to remain within this planetary system . . . yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām : "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats' and dogs' category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is . . . here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am . . ." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . *Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking . . .? Even if you take the body of demigod like Brahmā, millions of years age . . ." That is stated in the Bhag . . . ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). *Indian man (5): Kṣīne puṇye martya*-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). *Prabhupāda: Kṣīne puṇye punaḥ martya*-lokaṁ viśanti . So why should we waste our time? Even I become Brahmā, again we have to come. Indian man (5): Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), kṣurasya dhara niśita duratyayā . Prabhupāda: Duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te . Hai to disease bahut kathin. Lekin accha doctor hone se bimari thik ho jata hai. (Although the disease is very serious, if there is a good physician then it can be cured.) So that is there said: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā . Very difficult. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te . So why don't you do that? *Indian man (5): Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva*-bhāvena bhārata (BG 18.62). *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done? *Indian man (5): Sva*-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ (BG 3.35). *Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva*-dharma . Sva-dharma , that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ . You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa . But he's not doing that. *Indian man (5): So he's not performing his sva*-dharma . Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him. *Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already . . . a brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa *-like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa . Janma-karma , uh, guṇa-karma . So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas . Now act like brāhmaṇa . Then your life is succ . . . *Varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ , svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān , viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya , as a vaiśya , as a śūdra , it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra , the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. *But they are not doing even sva*-dharma , bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma . "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma , including that, "You have to give up your sva-dharma . Don't . . . you cannot act as a brāhmaṇa , you cannot act as a kṣatriya , neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya . All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . this is the . . . (indistinct) Indian man (5): Sansarik ke liye upasana jaroori hai ki nahi? (For the worldly man is austerity necessary or not?) *Prabhupada: Upasana ka kya zaroorat hai. Sva*-dharm ka palan karo. Agar sva-dharm ka palan nahi hota to Bhagavan ke charan mein sharanagat karo. Sva-dharm ka palan koi nahi karta hai. Kaun Brahman ka dharm kaun palan karta hai, koi nahi. (What is the need for austerity? Follow your own prescribed duties. If you cannot follow your own prescribed duties then surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Nobody follows their prescribed duties. Who follows the Brahman dharma , nobody.) *Prabhupāda: Who is practicing this? Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa . If he's acting differently, he should be . . . (break) . . . utilized by the liberated person. Still, we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine . . . the doors will be . . . vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that, "You should give up these four principles: illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. *So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulation, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt . It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty*-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . So this is the only remedy, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you'll find all our students, they have got these beads. We have got these bead. Either we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa. That is also chanting. When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting. Kīrtana , kīrtana means kīrtayati , talking, speaking. *Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Parīkṣit Mahārāja: śrī*-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit (Brs. 1.2.265). The item is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23): about Viṣṇu, to hear and chant. So simply by hearing about Viṣṇu, Parīkṣit Mahārāja became liberated. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane . Vaiyāsaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect kīrtane , by kīrtana . But he . . . he was . . . he did not chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , but he recited Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So that is also kīrtana . Talking of Kṛṣṇa, that is also kīrtana . Kīrtana does not always mean that you have to chan . . . you have to engage yourself always in glorifying the Lord. *Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. He was a busy emperor of the world, but he engaged himself . . . sa vai puṁsām . . . er . . . kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayoḥ. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). He fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. This is first. If you fix up your mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then: sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). And he was talking only, describing and glorifying Vaikuṇṭha. God's another name is Vaikuṇṭha. In Madras they say Veṅkateśvara. *Vaikuṇṭha. Kuṇṭha means anxiety. So God has no anxiety, and God's devotees have no anxiety. Therefore they are vaikuṇṭha . Here in the material world everyone has got anxiety. Therefore it is kuṇṭha , the world of kuṇṭha , anxieties. Everyone—birds, beast, human being—there must be kuṇṭha . So God is Vaikuṇṭha. The vaikuṇṭha*-guṇānuvarṇane . This is also chanting, kīrtana , to describe about Vaikuṇṭha, Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Vaikuṇṭha person, Vaikuṇṭha devotees. *So this is the remedy of bhavauṣadhi . Bhava . Bhava means to take birth. Bhava . This is called bhava*-saṁsāra , this material world. Here bhava , you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-saṁsāra , repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). We living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situation, different position, and in this way wandering up and down, brahmāṇḍa bhramite , within this universe—sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet; sometimes as human being, sometimes as cat, dog; sometimes brāhmaṇa , sometimes śūdra , like that. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that the living entities are wandering like this. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite . Bhramite means wandering. Kona bhāgyavān jīva . One fortunate person, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), by the grace of guru and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one gets the seed of devotional service. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa (CC Madhya 19.152). And when you get a nice seed of plant, you sow it. *So that seed has to be sown within the heart. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare . . . śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . So if we sow the seed within the heart and water it, as the watering requires . . . the watering is this śravaṇa-kīrtana . Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Then it grows. And in due course of time, it gives you the fruit, which is love of Godhead. Then your life is successful. This is the process. So we have to try to sow the seed of devotional service within our heart, and it has to be watered by hearing and chanting. Then gradually it will grow. This is the process. And this is open for everyone. There is no restriction. Indian man (1): And no price. *Prabhupāda: And no price also. Do sabko thoda*-thoda prasad. (Give everyone a little bit of prasad .) Indian man (6): This morning we didn't want to disturb you to have a darśana . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You came in the morning? Indian man (6): I came in the morning. Prabhupāda: You came in the morning, yes. You are for many years here in . . .? Indian man (7): Yes, I have been in this country since about thirteen years. Prabhupāda: Thirteen years? Indian man (7): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, long here. You are for fourteen years? Indian man (8): In 1959. Yes, over fourteen years now. Indian man (6): He has established very well in the insurance business. Indian man (8): Which business? Indian man (7): Insurance. Indian man (6): He has got his own insurance companies. Indian man (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says: "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means . . . (laughter) Indian man (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business. Indian man (8): When you say something "Good . . ." *Prabhupāda: No, good, God is all*-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good. Indian man (8): That is good. Indian man (7): Any business based on ethic is good. *Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sva-karmaṇā , by his own business . . . just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya . So sva-karmaṇā , by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ . *The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first class brāhmaṇas . So this is the verdict: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ ," according to the division of varṇa and āśrama . Four varṇas : brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . And four āśramas : brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa . This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān . . . (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama , at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate . . . but that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. *So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ . You may be a brāhmaṇa . You may be a kṣatriya . You may be a vaiśya . You may be a śūdra . You may be a brahmacārī . You may be a gṛhastha . You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa . It doesn't matter. These division will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama . . . varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example: He was a kṣatriya . He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya , let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful. Indian man (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Kṛṣṇa . . . Indian man (8): Or somebody . . . Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna talked. Indian man (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know . . .? Prabhupāda: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop. Indian man (8): How does he know that he is pleasing God or he's not pleasing God? Prabhupāda: That, that . . . therefore you have to know how to talk with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be possible. You cannot manufacture. And that is that you can talk with Kṛṣṇa by devotion. Indian man (8): Because apparently, you know, to a layman, this killing wasn't an act which will please Kṛṣṇa, and that, what Arjuna did, kill . . . kill so much . . . such a great army and everything, it will . . . normally, you know, a layman would have thought it won't please Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, if you cannot meet Kṛṣṇa, you can meet with Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad*-gītā . Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā . Kṛṣṇa says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha . "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Ikṣvāku." In this way, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam , there is a disciplic succession. *So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. If you talk with the Kṛṣṇa's representative, then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the . . . there is a man, departmental*-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Kṛṣṇa, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot . . . but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. It is not difficult. *The ācāryas are there. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27), Kṛṣṇa says. "All the ācāryas ," māṁ vijānīyān , "they are Myself." Nāvamanyeta karhicit : "Never disregard ācārya ." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāṁ nāvaman . . . na martya*-buddhyāsūyeta . "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa talked, he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme." *So if anyone says, "Kṛṣṇa is supreme," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If somebody says that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. But if somebody says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *Hmm. So Catur*-bhuja, where he has gone? Indian man (8): To bring some prasādam . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (someone enters) Indian man (8): Now, while Bhīṣmadeva was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why he has taken the Kaurava side? Many people ask about . . . he knows Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: First of all give him. Yes. Indian man (8): . . . and still, he took the side of Kauravas in the fight, being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. And he knew that Pāṇḍavas were right and Kauravas were not right. So many times this question has been very . . . Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be killed by the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (8): By God. (background talking while prasādam is served) Prabhupāda: Bring more. Indian man (1): Okay. Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought . . . He expressed that, "Duryodhana . . ." he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious, because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with . . ." Because kṣatriya , this fighting is sporting. You see? That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles that, "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana. They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect . . . so when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed this moral principle. "So one is maintaining me, and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well." Indian man (8): Morally. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (8): That's the question we were discussing. Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it good? Indian man (8): Oh, very nice. We discussed this point in *Bhāgavatam* , and these young boys, they tried to very closely to the point, so that if I put the question before you . . . Prabhupāda: If somebody is maintaining you, and when he's in danger, you go to his enemy's side, that does not look nice. Yes. Otherwise, everyone was on Arjuna's side. Droṇācārya. But they considered like this that, "They have maintained us so long. And now there is fight, and we shall go to the enemy's side. What is this? What people will say? 'Traitors.' " Indian man (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away? Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home, when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" he left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight, because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be . . ." He divided . . . he, by tricks . . . his soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers that, "Why shall I take this one man? I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said: "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said: "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." *Mahābhārata* is very nice. "Greater India." *Mahābhārata* means "The History of Greater India." *Mahābhārata* . Mahā means "greater." Indian man (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and . . . *Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by . . . this is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman— strī—śūdra and dvija-bandhu . Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu . And they are compared with śūdras . *So strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām : for these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Mahābhārata is Vedic literature, but for their understanding . . . they could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. Indian man (9): The Haryana government is constructing very gigantic, you know, temple over there at the birthplace of *Gītā* , at Kurukṣetra. I was there ten days before. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (9): I was there from ten days before at Kurukṣetra. Indian man (8): Kurukṣetra. Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra, yes. And they have decided now that about ten crores of rupees must be spent over there. Revatīnandana: The government of India is constructing a temple there? Is that what you said? Indian man (9): Haryana government is particularly concerned about that, you see. Prabhupāda: Where? In Haryana? Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra. Indian man (8): Actually, that is not by the government. That is by Nanda. No, not . . . the newspaper. That minister. Prabhupāda: You, you can give. (referring to prasādam ) Indian man (7): Nanda. He is, he is the chairman of that. I heard that about him. Prabhupāda: (to server) You give, yes. You, whoever you have not given, you give. She does not know. Indian man (8): To whom you have not given here? Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Give, give others, visitors. Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person? Prabhupāda: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender. Indian man: Thank you. Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. *Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do that. Hmm? He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise, there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully . . . he'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narā . . . *According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas . All the ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre . . . in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā : their knowledge has been taken away by māyā . Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā . Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ . Real thing they do not understand, nor . . . or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi , "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andha yoniṣu (BG 16.19). That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Dviṣataḥ krūrān . They're envious, krūra . "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," they have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue. Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: No ignorant. Purposefully. Indian man (8): Purposeful, knowing that . . . knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it . . . Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least . . . the every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." *This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad*-gītā . . . everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise, where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma . God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya , one eternal, one living being, that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya , eternal. But He is nityo nityānām . He is the chief of the nityas . He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the *Vedas* , and they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are . . . they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that God is impersonal, and everyone can become God, or everyone is God. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi : "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions, they say that, "You can create your God," "You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me. He was supporting Ramakrishna Mission. He said: "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God." Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda ? (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the Western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God," they have accepted it, just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these Westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it, without any argument. Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle? I simply present that "Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swāmījī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing, not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said: They'll not take to it. So, they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. *Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha . . . (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa . So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya ." Faith. This is faith: when one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś . . . and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya : "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā , with this faith one has to begin. *Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā : then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis : then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ : then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ : then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet . . . these are the different stages of sādhaka , of a devotee, how to make progress. *So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva . . . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan that, "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress? Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ , athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. *So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta . . . "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). *Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principle of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning A*-B-C-D. What . . .?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith, but that is required. Revatīnandana: Faith begins from the association of devotees? Prabhupāda: And that, that faith becomes stronger by association. By association of the devotees, the faith becomes stronger. And the more your faith becomes stronger, you make progress. This is the way. Progress means the same faith becoming stronger, stronger, strongest. The same faith. The principle is the same: Kṛṣṇa. Then you know more about Kṛṣṇa. Then you become more faithful. Revatīnandana: Is this faithfulness, is it a product of the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not . . . unless you take it seriously . . . then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness . . . that, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively. Revatīnandana: Sometimes the . . . Kṛṣṇa says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why . . . *Prabhupāda: No, I'm . . . that is generally, unless one becomes in goodness. But bhakti*-mārga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaitukī apratihatā. Ahaitukī. Apratihatā . Nothing can check bhakti-mārga . Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaitukī apratihatā . Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material . . . these goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions. Revatīnandana: Why is it, then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it? Prabhupāda: That is his choice. Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition? Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept. Indian man (10): So does faith develop from accepting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state. (pause) (aside) Get the lights on. Revatīnandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself. Whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from . . . whether to accept or reject Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee. Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): He's just asking for your blessings . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): Your blessings, Swāmījī, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems. Indian man (11): Personal family problem. I am now . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man (2): I told him . . . Prabhupāda: Bas yeh chanting hai Hare Kṛṣṇa nāma ka. Bās. Bhavauṣadhi abhi to bataya tha. (Only this chanting is there, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Only medicine for the material disease. I told you just now.) bhavauṣadhi , medicine of all material diseases. This distressed condition of material world is a diseased condition, and this is the remedy. Sab milkar isme to aapka koi kharch nahi hai, nuksaan nahi hai. Sab family members baithkar Hare Krishna naam ka jaap kijiye. (There is no expenditure in this. All family members should sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupada: Disease hai, agar davai nahi lenge to kya hoga. To jiska deemag kharab hai usko uska kya kiya ja sakta hai. (The disease is there and if you don't take medicine then what will happen? If a person is insane what can be done of him?) Indian man (7): To eradicate the disease, it needs some planning. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (7): To eradicate disease, it needs counteraction. Prabhupāda: This is recited from the śāstra , bhavauṣadhi . This is the only disease, uh, only remedy. You have not got to spend anything or purchase anything. Neither is there loss. Why not try for some time. Indian man (7): Remedy. Devotee: Because it's free, that's why they're hesitating. (laughter) Indian man (1): That's nice. Indian man (11): Chaliye. (Let's go.) Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you. Whenever few times . . . Indian man (7): It's a pleasure, sir, to have your darśana . Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Indian man (8): You can come in the morning. We have got . . . Guru Mahārāja speaks in the morning, Bhagavad*-gītā classes. Prabhupāda: Morning we have lecture. Indian man (7): Morning I can chant Kṛṣṇa's name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to . . .? Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulation, and other things. But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Droṇācārya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly, you can practice—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man (3): Swāmījī, tomorrow is Guru*-pūrṇimā , and a friend of mine, his father or his mother died, you see, on Ekādaśī day. Husband and wife both, they had been fasting Ekādaśī , doing satya-nārāyaṇa-kathā . So now father, he is very lonely, and he said: "I have got no guru ." Then I told about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning, to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation? Prabhupāda: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand . . . *Indian man (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Guru*-pūrṇimā . That's why I thought if tomorrow . . . Indian man (8): If he deserves it. Prabhupāda: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see. Indian man (3): Tomorrow morning? Ācchā . The beads, Swāmījī. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office? Prabhupāda: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market. *Haṁsadūta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupāda just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat*-eating—meat, fish, eggs—and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. So anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as . . . Indian guest: As effective as it would be. Haṁsadūta: Exactly. Indian man (4): So what you're saying is that there's no harm by his . . . *Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . that will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhā . According to śāstra , these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult. Indian man (3): Swāmījī? Tea and coffee's also included? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pāna . . . chāi , pāna . Pāna , pāna means intoxication. Dhūmra*-pāna . *Indian man (7): Dhūmra*-pāna . Indian man (2): And what about supāri , Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also ingredient of pāna . Pāna , it is called pāna . Indian man (2): I offered Vaikuṇṭhajī supāri . You see, he won't accept it. So I thought, well, it only helps digestion, because it only brings the saliva in the mouth. Prabhupāda: Well, wine is also very digestive. (laughter) An appetizer also. All Europeans, they take first of all wine to eat voraciously. I see in the airplane. And after taking wine, they eat so much. Indian man (8): And then they go for dancing to digest it. *Prabhupāda: Simple life. Simple life, innocent life . . . because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair . . . (SB 10.1.4). There is another verse quoted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). *Bhagavad*-bhajana , those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead . . . pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya , on the other side of this material world, for him . . . viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca , hā hanta ha hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicide. So material things, viṣaya , simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, this is material activity. Indian man (8): Defense? *Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means . . . just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28): "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām , "and always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28): "He becomes freed from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed up in My service." *So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ anta*-gataṁ pāpam . Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana . Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex . . . if you can . . . if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya , little tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya , austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student that, "You have to follow this." And that's all. Indian man (4): . . . kon shomoy apni dekha deben, kalke na kon shomoy? (. . . at what time can I meet you tomorrow? . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kal othoba . . . (Tomorrow or . . .) Indian man (4): Kal shokale ami ashbo. (I will come tomorrow morning.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian man (1): In the evening tomorrow, Swāmījī, have you got any special program or . . . Prabhupāda: No, anyone can come after four. Indian man (1): Four to . . .? Prabhupāda: Four to six. Revatīnandana: I think tomorrow evening there'll be special . . . some special guests coming. Tomorrow evening. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Revatīnandana: Not tomorrow . . . Prabhupāda: No, you are also welcome. You are also welcome. Indian man (5): Some people they work, you see, seven days of the week. Indian man (8): Sunday night? Indian man (5): No, Sunday is tomorrow. So they wanted to come. Revatīnandana: Yeah, except tomorrow evening, I . . . Śyāmasundara's arranging a very special conference. And I don't think . . . *Prabhupāda: That's all right. They also come and hear what is . . . it is open to everyone. Our special conference: Bhagavad*-bhakti . Guests: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (5): Otherwise, you know, we are disallowed . . . Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): . . . without your permission, then. Prabhupāda: They will also hear. Yes. Savere ayiyega. (Come in the morning.) Jaya. Indian man (5): Yes . . . savere aunga. (. . . I will come in the morning.) Indian man (4): . . . shokale ashte pari? Kon shomoy . . . (. . . can I come in the morning? At what time . . .) Prabhupāda: Joto shokale ashte paren. (As early as you can.) Indian man (4): Accha . . . (indistinct) . . . ami ghum theke uthte pari na. (Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . I am unable to get up early.) Prabhupāda: Paro na? (Are you unable to get up?) (aside) Raho idhar . . . brahmachari . . . (Stay here . . . celibate monk . . .) Prabhupāda: Aap kahan ka rehne wala hai? (Where are you from?) Punjab? Indian man (5): I'm a Hindu. Prabhupāda: You are Hindu, but which province? Indian man (5): I come from . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . and my father's from . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, Guyana. That South America. Indian man (5): No. My father's from India. My mother's from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (5): No, they come from Jalandhar. Prabhupāda: Jalandhar, Punjab. Indian man (5): Yes. And . . . Prabhupāda: What you are doing here? Indian man (5): Well I have come . . . I'm working at the moment, yeah. I'm working at the moment. Prabhupāda: Working? Indian man (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: What work? Indian man (5): Well I'm on the . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . hotel. In the kitchen working, all the washing up, and the supervising and things. You know, my father's seen you. He's come and seen you a bit. *Prabhupāda: Ma*-phal? Indian man (5): My father. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (5): He's come around here. I think he came in London, to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple in London. He came there . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . all . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this thing has really gone into my mind. And I don't drink, no meat, nothing else. Prabhupāda: You don't eat meat? Indian man (5): Nothing. No drink, no . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, very good boy. Indian man (5): Horrible. (break) Prabhupāda: Ready to sacrifice your hair? Indian man (5): Well, I did before. Revatīnandana: Not yet. (laughter) Indian man (1): Is it compulsory to have a full consciousness that he must shave his head? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is formality. But he must be prepared to observe formality also. But if it is very much objectionable, sometimes we excuse. Indian man (7): Now I have finished my one year, one year and one week, or something, for my practice, you know. So I'll be taking before and next year. Still, I . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, you can come any time. Indian man (7): Now it's 360 . . . 73 or 72 days now, so I'm counting the days. Prabhupāda: Unko mila prasad. Prasad khilaya? Khaya? (They got prasad . You served prasad ? Did you eat?) Prabhupāda: Dekhiye jo bimari hoti hai aur agni jo hota hai usko bilkul na karna chahiye aur koi agar samjhe thoda sa aag hai chalo thik hai, jal jayega voh aadat bhi badh jayega. Isi tarah bimar bhi thoda sa he, aise nahi pura usko khatam karo. Isi prakar . . . (See, if there is a fire and there is an illness, they should be immediately driven away. If someone ignores it thinking that the fire is very small then everything will get burned down. Similarly, instead of taking the disease very lightly, one must uproot it completely. In the same way . . .) debts. He thinks, "Oh, this is small debt." No, sometimes it becomes, compound interest, big amount. So therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these three things must be finished by the root: agni and vyādhi and ṛṇa . We should not neglect. Indian man (7): What is that? Agni . . .? Prabhupāda: Agni , vyādhi , disease, and ṛṇa , debts. You should not neglect it. You should finish it. Indian man (8): Before it's increased more. I remember it's only few weeks . . . Revatīnandana: Fire? Fire, disease and debts. Prabhupāda: Debts. One should not neglect. Indian man (6): You don't drink tea, do you? No tea? Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (8): No tea, coffee, no . . . Indian man (7): I know. I stopped coffee because I don't have it often in my office staff. But tea, still, I'm thinking to leave the tea, you know. I see that Prabhupāda will ask me to give up everything, you know. (laughs) Revatīnandana: You'll have to replace it with something higher. When you want a cup of tea, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's how I stopped smoking cigarettes. Indian man (7): Oh, my God. You can . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . us . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . stop smoking. Prabhupāda: No, no. Nahi who sab thik ho jayega. (No, everything will be fine.) "Where there is a will, there is a way." Koi mushkil nahi hai. (It is not difficult.) Indian man (7): So when I shall take the whole promise? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (7): When I shall take the whole, the whole of what everything is to do this . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, at any time, when you are ready. Indian man (8): (indistinct Hindi) . . . any time. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Subashya shigram . . . mrtyu kala haranam . Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko milne ke liye rishi muni log kitna tapasya kiye hazaaron varsh tapasya. (To meet God, the saints and mendicants—did penance for thousands of years.) (break) . . . polluted, and we have to deal with them. Indian man (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee . . . "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh, no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, when I was gṛhastha , so they offered tea, I said: "I don't take tea." Then they said: "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water, that sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality. Indian man (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know. Indian man (8): Hospitality means prasādam . Prabhupāda: Hospitality means first of all, he should ask, "What can I offer you?" This is hospitality. Indian man (8): Naturally, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that, "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter) Indian man (8): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. Hospitality is first. According to our Indian system, Aap kya lenge? (What will you have?) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water," or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality. Indian man (9): (indistinct Hindi) . . . somebody comes to my place . . . Prabhupāda: So you should ask, "What can I offer you?" Indian man (9): . . . say, "A cup of tea will do." Then? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man (9): We cannot give him cup of tea. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot give that, "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter) Indian man (8): No tea now. Why do you keep that tea in the house? Prabhupāda: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandeṣa or some sweetmeat or . . . what is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him . . . there are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered? Is it very nice preparation? Indian man (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want . . . Prabhupāda: I want things are nice, but . . . Indian man (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea. *Prabhupāda: They might have gone to hell, but I am not . . . (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat*-prasāda . We are offering our bhagavat-prasādam . Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all. Indian man (9): No, what I have been asked . . . I take the full consciousness, but wife takes half, and children, they didn't take it, so they want a cup of coffee. One boy wants cup of coffee, the girl wants a cup of tea and . . . Prabhupāda: Well, the . . . Indian man (9): But the . . . and when the . . . that is the . . . this is the problem . . . Prabhupāda: This happened in my life . . . this happened in my life. Revatīnandana: Listen. Listen. Listen. Prabhupāda: My wife was taking tea. So I asked her not to take tea, not to take tea. But she didn't care, husband. Then I gave her final, that "Either you have to give up your tea or your husband." (laughter) So she agreed to give up husband, not tea. (laughter) So I left my home. That's all. (laughter) Indian man (8): Due to tea! Indian man (9): There won't be any place for me to go now. Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is . . . habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas : brahmacārī , gṛhastha , vānaprastha , sannyāsa . Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha . His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī . Indian man (1): He is lucky. Prabhupāda: Yes, lucky. Indian man (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there. Prabhupāda: He has good wife, good children, all favorable for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He does not . . . Indian man (8): This is Prabhupāda's mercy really. Indian man (1): No, but, that I'm saying . . . Indian man (8): We have been living fourteen years in this country. They were brought up here, and they never touched tea. They were brought up here, school education and all that, fourteen years . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in England, in London. Indian man (8): And I must say they are advancing more than me, really. I am still the same stage; by Prabhupāda's grace, they are advancing more—get up early in the morning, four o'clock, take bath . . . Prabhupāda: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife . . . his wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhur na gṛham ucyate . Just like we are also living within a room, gṛha . But we are sannyāsī . What is the difference between gṛhastha and sannyāsī ? He lives with his wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī means the wife is gṛha . So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyāsī . No. Why? There is no necessity. Gṛhe vā vanete thāko . Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha , the life must be dedicated for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is required. And for Kṛṣṇa's sake if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job? If Kṛṣṇa wants that "You give up this habit," . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . if you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa . . . now, Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So Kṛṣṇa wants that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , "Vegetable, milk, rice, grains, you can give Me." So you have to please Kṛṣṇa. You live on this, what Kṛṣṇa says, and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That's all. (people entering room) Aiye. Sab aiye idhar aiiye . . . hamara makaan bahut bada hai sabko . . . (Come here all of you . . . our house is very big . . .) *"My dear boy, what best learning you have learned?" He was child, boy. So he said, tat sādhu manye 'sura*-varya dehināṁ sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5): "My dear father . . ." He did not address father as "Father"; *he addressed him as asura*-varya , "the best of the asuras ." Indian man (8): "Best of the asuras ." *Prabhupāda: Yes, "best of the asuras ." Asura*-varya. Varya means the best. And asura . . . because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya . . ." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām : "Anyone who has accepted this material body . . ." Dehinām , he has said. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām : "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animal, birds, beast. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām . Why? Asad-grahāt . "Because they have accepted this material body." *Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvātma*-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam , hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). "They should not be satisfied with these society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on, and we are after that. But there . . . there is no possibility. Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, harim āśrayeta , there is no possibility. The whole world is trying to adjust things of the society, friendship, love and material atmosphere. That cannot be. That is not possible. Only by taking shelter . . . *Therefore Kṛṣṇa says. Not whimsically. That is the only remedy: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the only remedy. There is no other remedy. But they'll not take. What can be done? This is the only remedy: harim āśrayeta . One should take shelter of Hari, Kṛṣṇa. Then he'll be happy. Otherwise it is not possible. Indian man (6): Then we'll come in morning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ramanath. Tumhara naam kya hai. (What is your name?) Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . (end) Conversation -- July 15, 1973, London (Conversation With Three College Students) Student (1): Is that what you're trying to do in your movement? Prabhupāda: (break) movement . . . I am talking of yoga system. What is my movement, that we shall discuss later on. First of all the question was the yoga . You asked me that. yoga means to control the mind and the senses. So if one is not able to control the mind and senses, he does not know what is the meaning of yoga . Student (1): Right. *Prabhupāda: That . . . you read Bhagavad*-gītā ? *(aside) Bring Bhagavad*-gītā . Revatīnandana: Do you understand the necessity of controlling the mind and the senses? Can you see why it is necessary? Why would you say it's . . . Student (1): Yes. Sort of. Not to the full extent. I can't see how it's necessary to a full extent, because I can't control the mind and the senses. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Call Pradyumna. Student (1): Because I can't completely control my mind and senses. Revatīnandana: The thing that is covered when we are always acting on the sensual platform, agitated in the mind, is we do not experience our self, our eternal self, which doesn't change. We become locked on the temporary platform. Student (1): Yeah. In normal life, you mean? Most people, you're talking about. *Revatīnandana: Yes. Because all of our attention is lodged in the mind and the senses, and we are lost to ourselves. So any kind of self*-realization process means that you have to control the mind and senses or you cannot be self-situated. Beyond being situated in the self, there may be more, but that's the first point. That's the basic point of yoga . Student (2): Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into it? Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into the yoga ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Revatīnandana: He wants to know . . . if being self*-situated is one thing, then where does Kṛṣṇa enter into the system? That's his question. *Prabhupāda: Self*-situated . . . when you are self-situated . . . just like in the water you are taking bath in a pool. Something has fallen on the water. Suppose your key has fallen. Now you'll have to find out. You are just trying to settle up the water and see where is the key. So when your mind and senses are controlled, then you can talk of Kṛṣṇa. Before that you cannot talk. Because Kṛṣṇa is missing, with uncontrolled mind, senses, you cannot capture Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. The same example: When the water is agitated, you cannot see where your things have fallen. You have to wait to make the water calm and quiet. Then you'll see, "Here is my key." Student (2): What are the ways in which . . . Prabhupāda: You come here. Take this. Student (2): How can we get to Kṛṣṇa? How do you get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Sixth Chapter, the practice of yoga . The process. Pradyumna: Should I read from the beginning? Prabhupāda: Hmm. You read. Read. Pradyumna: "To practice yoga . . ." "To practice yoga , one should go to a secluded place . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, first of all you have to find out secluded place. yoga practice is not possible in a hotel or in a public place. It is not possible. You have to find out a secluded place. First condition. Then? Pradyumna: ". . . and should lay kuśa grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth." Prabhupāda: Then there is process of making the āsana , deerskin, kuśāsana , then cloth. You have to sit down in that āsana. Āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇ . . . then? Pradyumna: "The seat should neither be too high nor too low." Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there. "It should not be too high nor too low." Then? Pradyumna: "And should be situated in a sacred place." Prabhupāda: A sacred place. Just like formerly, those who were practicing yoga , they were going to Gaṅgotri, where the Ganges is coming down, in the Himalaya, in the Haridwar, in a secluded, sacred place. These are the condition, first condition. So where you are getting these condition fulfilled? You cannot practice yoga in a hotel or in a club. That is not possible. Student (2): How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? Pradyumna: How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? How do you tell? Revatīnandana: What is a sacred place? Prabhupāda: Sacred place, generally we take as a lonely place, solitary place. If it is not solitary, it is not sacred. Student (2): Is sacred the same as solitary? Prabhupāda: Yes. They used to sit down in the Himalaya where the Ganges is coming. That is a sacred place. If you go simply on the Ganges side on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, you will find immediately purified your mind. Immediately. Or on a seaside where there is nobody disturbing. These are sacred places. Then? Pradyumna: "The yogī should then sit on it very firmly." Prabhupāda: Then yogī has to sit down very firmly like this. Yes, straight, perpendicularly. Then? Pradyumna: "And should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses." Prabhupāda: Then he has to practice meditation for controlling the mind and the senses. First of all āsana , place, sacred place; now, āsana , secluded place, alone. That is stated. These are the yogic process.(break) Student (3): What do you mean by control your mind, I mean, control your senses? If your senses are controlled, can you see anything you wish or hear anything you wish? Or taste anything you wish? Prabhupāda: (aside) Just explain what is control, mind and senses. Revatīnandana: Well, controlling, being in control of your mind and senses, means that whatever destination you fix up with your intelligence—you understand, you want a particular result—then if you are in control of your mind and senses, then it means that it won't disturb you. Prabhupāda: First of all . . . first of all thing is the, what is the aim of practicing yoga ? So to achieve that end, that purpose, you have to control the mind, because mind is very flickering, going here, there, there, there. So first of all you must know what is the purpose of practicing yoga , why you should practice yoga . So in order to achieve that goal, you have to concentrate your mind, and therefore you have to control the mind going here and there. That is control. Mind business is acceptance and rejecting. This is mind's business. Immediately I accept, "It is very good"; again, next moment, "No, no, it is not good. Reject it." This is called flickering mind. So by yoga practice you have to make your mind in such a way that whatever you decide, that is correct, not the state of rejecting and accepting. So first of all, you have to know why you are practicing yoga . As you asked the question, "Why control of mind?" then the next question will be, "Why you are practicing? What is your aim?" You are going to practice yoga . Why? What is the aim? Student (2): Is it to realize God? Prabhupāda: That's nice. Therefore you must have to concentrate upon God; therefore you have to control your mind. You have to withdraw your mind from any other engagement, only concentrate on God. Then the . . . what is God? Student (2): That's what I'm trying to find out. Prabhupāda: No, if you want to concentrate, find out God . . . do you mean to say simply by practicing, you'll find out? You must know what is God. Then suppose you are purchasing some ticket. You do not where to go. You do not know. You say: "I'll have to find out where to go." What is this? Then why you are purchasing ticket? Student (2): Yeah. How can you focus your mind on God before you know what He is? Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: He said: "How can you focus your mind on God before you know what God is? Prabhupāda: Yes. So then what is God? Student (1): That's what I came to ask you. Prabhupāda: Then? Revatīnandana: He wants to know. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa. So if you concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is yoga . That is first*-class yoga . That is stated. You . . . list the last . . . *He is first*-class yogī who is always concentrating his mind on Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Why Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only on Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . yogīnām api sarveśām (BG 6.47). (aside) You read the translation. Pradyumna: "Of all yogīs , he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the highest yoga . So to concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is highest perfection of yoga . Student (1): Yeah, but I want to know why Kṛṣṇa in particular. Prabhupāda: Then if there is question of "Why?" then you do not come to us. You can ask somebody else. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the yogīs , all the saintly person, therefore . . . there is no question of "Why?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the decision of the Vedic literature. All the ācāryas . We have to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), big personalities. Now in India, the big personalities in the modern age, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya, all of them accept kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . Formerly, five thousand years ago, Vyāsadeva; before that, Nārada. Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no question about Kṛṣṇa's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Why? Because these people accept, the śāstra says, the *Vedas* says; therefore He is the Supreme Personality. Student (1): I don't follow at all . . . Prabhupāda: Then you'll never be able to follow. Revatīnandana: Now, just see, if the revealed scriptures . . . Prabhupāda: No, no revealed scripture . . . just like why do you accept the Queen as the supreme? Why? Students: We don't. Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane. Student (1): . Yeah, but why . . . I mean, there's a thousand . . . Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are . . . by law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else. Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the Queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the Queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything . . . "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done? Student (3): But we can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, that . . . that is . . . you have to see through the śāstra, śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra , authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly see. You cannot say that. Student (1): Do you believe that there are other ways . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of belief. Now let us quest . . . we believe that, "If I see, that is all right." But what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see beyond this wall. Does it mean there is nothing? So what is the value of your seeing? First of all you consider. You are questioning that, "I cannot see," but what is the value of your seeing? Student (3): My seeing the electric lamp tells me that it is . . . Prabhupāda: Now, now, now, but you are seeing the electric lamp, but why do you believe so much on your seeing power? You cannot see so many things, even though you have got the eyes. Student (3): I have no reason not to believe. Prabhupāda: No, that is not good. If you say: "I cannot see beyond this wall. There is nothing," nobody will take your words. Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall . . . Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that. Student (2): We're not denying that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know . . . Prabhupāda: You have to know by the process, by the process. You have to know by the process. Just like can you see your father? Student (2): Can I see him? Prabhupāda: Eh. You cannot see? You can see? Student (2): Well, I can see him. Prabhupāda: So how you can see? Who is your father, how you can see? Student (2): Who is he? Who is my father? Prabhupāda: Why? Why you accept somebody as your father? Why? Student (2): Only because my mother told me. Prabhupāda: Huh, that's right. (laughter) But you do not see. You do not see. So you have to believe the authority. Then you can see. Student (2): Yeah. Yeah, but . . . Prabhupāda: Your father existed before your birth, so you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says: "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy. Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father. Revatīnandana: So to come to your point, as he was pointing out, in the past, back hundreds of years, thousands of years, all the great authorities of spiritual knowledge and yoga have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Personality of Godhead. And these ancient *Vedas* , they confirm it clearly in many, many places. Now, if someone comes and he says something else than Kṛṣṇa is God—"I am God" or "This light is God . . ." Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse *Revatīnandana: . . . then its different, you see. That's why not Guru Maharaj*-ji. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam (BG 10.12), in the Tenth Chapter. Pradyumna: 10.10? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Pradyumna: *"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages, such as Nārada, Asita, Devala . . ." Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority. Pradyumna: ". . . and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14)? Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye . . . Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava. Pradyumna: . . . yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ : "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately he understands Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14): "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And "You are accepted by Devala, Nārada, Vyāsa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the ācāryas have accepted. Then I'll follow: mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). I'll have to follow great personalities." The same reason: mother says this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished. Why should you waste your time? Student (1): Say we say that Kṛṣṇa is God. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): If we . . . let's just suppose we say Kṛṣṇa is God. Then do you believe that there are other ways, apart from the way that you're going, to get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: yoga means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Yeah, right, but I mean practically . . . Prabhupāda: So when you understand Kṛṣṇa, then there is no need of yoga . Student (1): I don't think you could ever understand God. I don't see how you could ever understand God. Prabhupāda: No, if you go to the place . . . just like if you go to the airport, then you can understand which airship is starting from which gate, which gate. There are so many things you can see. But if you do not approach the airport, simply in other place, how you can study airport? First of all come to Kṛṣṇa, then try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And if you understand Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated. First of all we have to know that, "Here is *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." Then you try to understand. But if you do not approach there, where is your question of understanding Him? Student (2): Yeah, but somebody else will say: "You come to us, and I'll do this to you, and you'll see God." Prabhupāda: We do . . . we are not concerned with "some." We are concerned with the authorities, that's all. Somebody says, "He is not your father." We are not concerned. My mother says: "He is father." That's all. Student (2): Yeah, but if my mother tells me, I only believe it . . . Prabhupāda: Then you are unfortunate. If your mother tells you lies, then you are unfortunate. *Student (2): Yeah, but I only believe her because I give her the authority. You make Bhagavad*-gītā your authority. Prabhupāda: But generally we have to believe. Generally we have to believe mother; there is no other way. To understand the father, generally you have to accept the statement of mother. If your mother tells you lies, that is misfortune. Student (1): Yeah, but you're not giving us any sort of answers. You're just sort of saying, "Believe in us. Assume that you believe in us." So why don't you give us an answer? Prabhupāda: No, believe . . . you have to believe. You have to believe. Otherwise you cannot make progress. You have to believe. Student (1): Yeah, but say you're in a position of not particularly believing in anybody. I mean, there's loads of organizations going around, "Believe in us, believe in us." Prabhupāda: No, if you don't believe, that is a different thing *Revatīnandana: No, what he's saying is this. Now he's saying also, this Guru Maharaj*-ji, he says: "You believe in me, and I'll show you everything." Now he's saying that . . . what he's accusing is . . . Prabhupāda: But who cares for the Guru Mahārāja? Revatīnandana: He cares. Prabhupāda: Here is Nārada, Devala, Vyāsa, authority. Student (3): No, we're not saying we do, but some people do, anyway. Student (1): Yeah, they'll argue just as convincingly as you. Prabhupāda: But everyone can say: "I am God." Then how you'll understand? If Guru Mahārāja says, I can say also. He can say. Then go on studying who is God. The same question: Everyone says: "I am your father," "I am your father," "I am your father," but whom you have to believe? You have to believe only mother. Student (3): Okay, well who's the mother in this case? Revatīnandana: The śāstra , revealed scriptures. They give information about the father. *Prabhupāda: Śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Student (1): What about the Bible? That'll tell me something else altogether. Revatīnandana: Yes. No, it won't. It will tell you almost identical information. If you go in the Bible, it will say: "God is your father." "Father" means he is sufficient to beget a son. Now, if God is a void, how can a son come out from a void? Prabhupāda: We have no such experience. *Revatīnandana: But if God is a person, then He can have son. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the father of every living being." Therefore Bible and Bhagavad*-gītā , they are saying the same thing, but not that "God is void or light." Not saying that. Somebody else is saying that. Therefore we are very, very skeptical now. He has not got the authority of these scriptures. If he says, "Your father is a void," that is nonsense. Prabhupāda: And where is our experience—from void a son is born? Where is your experience? Student (3): What do you mean? Prabhupāda: Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void? Student (3): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to . . . Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities. Student (3): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't . . . no, right. But I mean this isn't logical, is it? Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority. Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself. Revatīnandana: Yes. Student: Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct. Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic. Student (3): Because so many people say different things, which conflict. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are taking the shelter of logic. You are taking the shelter. Student (1): Logic . . . logic is arguing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, logic means argument, reasoning. Our logic is because Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all great person, authorities, we accept. Our logic is simple. Student (1): But Christians might say the same thing. They might say: "Look at the Bible. This is our logic." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. They accept God; we accept God. The only difference is they do not know who is God, but we know who is God. Student (1): No, they know who is God as well. Prabhupāda: No. Revatīnandana: You won't get any good information about God. "God is great. God created"—finished. That's not very much information. God's son? A little more information about God's son. Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have. Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see. Student (1): In which way? Revatīnandana: In these *Vedas* . There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book, in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the *Vedas* give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle—"God is there. God is a person"—is in both places. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son. Student (1): God exists now. Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists. Student (1): But therefore where is He, if He's a person? Prabhupāda: Why is He? Revatīnandana: Where is He? Prabhupāda: Where is He? He is with you. He is here. But you have no eyes to see, that's all. Revatīnandana: He says: "I'm sitting in everyone's heart, and from Me comes knowledge, remembrance and forgetfulness." If you turn toward Him, He will give you knowledge, and you'll be able to see Him. But you have to find out who to turn toward. Then you can turn. So from saintly authorities, the line of masters and the *Vedas* , we find out where to turn. And if you turn properly, then by Kṛṣṇa's grace, you'll see Kṛṣṇa. He'll reveal Himself in the course of time. Student (2): Have you all seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He asked if we have all seen Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: We are daily, every moment, seeing. Every moment. Otherwise, do you mean to say we are blindly following something? Student (2): No, I'm not saying that. I'm just asking if someone comes along and joins you, do they see Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, why don't you see Kṛṣṇa? There is picture of Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see, driving horse? Here is Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see? If you see the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? Student (2): No. Prabhupāda: No, then what can I talk with? Student (2): All I was saying was is it . . . when someone comes . . . Prabhupāda: Here the photograph of your . . . seeing the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? That's your argument? Student (1): No, it's seeing a photograph of your father. Prabhupāda: False? Revatīnandana: It's seeing a photograph of the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now . . . but God is Absolute. God's and God's photograph, there is no difference. God's and God's name, there is no difference. Therefore God is Absolute. He is not relative. You can say: "The photograph is not my father," that because it is relative. But God is Absolute. God's name, God's form, God's pastimes—everything is God. That you have to understand, Absolute nature. Otherwise, are these boys and so many thousands and thousands of devotees . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa, this name, is different from Kṛṣṇa, are they foolishly simply chanting "Kṛṣṇa"? Student (1): I don't know, but . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's photograph is the same. That you have to understand. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. Student (1): Do you mean Kṛṣṇa is Absolute and Kṛṣṇa is everything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): Then why does Kṛṣṇa have a specific form? Prabhupāda: And why not? Kṛṣṇa is everything. Suppose I if I say: "I am everything in this, my institution," does it mean I have lost my personality? Student (1): But you are not . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. If I say, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . if somebody says that, "Bhakti Vedānta Swami is everything," does it mean I have lost my personality? That is material understanding. Kṛṣṇa keeps His personality; still, He is everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. In the government there are so many cabinet ministers, offices, etc. And in every cabinet minister and in every office the will of the prime minister is going on. Therefore in one sense the prime minister is everything. Still, the prime minister is a person who is in control of all those cabinet officers and offices. And you won't find the prime minister in each office, but he's there, because of his influence. In the same way, you are in Kṛṣṇa's energies, and He is everywhere through His energies, but He remains the person in control. The same thing. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example: because the prime minister's energy is working in that office, so the prime minister is there present. So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun, sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient. Now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire. *So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), "earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies," so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa, because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh, it is hot. Oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult. Student (3): To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, one needs faith that Kṛṣṇa exists, and . . . Prabhupāda: Not only "Kṛṣṇa exists," "What is my relationship with Kṛṣṇa? What is my duty in that relationship?" Everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. Who can produce this? (referring to flower) Who can produce something like this? Supposing you take your best chemists and engineers . . . Student (3): Well, you must call it God, mustn't you. Revatīnandana: And you see who can produce, right? They cannot produce anything with this texture, this nice smell, you see? Prabhupāda: He knows it. Student (3): It doesn't smell. Revatīnandana: So many persons can make an artificial flower that's not as nice as that one, but they cannot reproduce that. And then we say that Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, who is full of knowledge, full of beauty, full of power. With full knowledge, beauty and power . . . Prabhupāda: Because He has got full knowledge, He knows how to . . . now, this flower has come from earth, and other flower has come also from the earth. But the fragrance is within the earth. But you cannot take the fragrance from the earth. You do not know. But Kṛṣṇa is taking. Just see. Therefore His knowledge is perfect. Omnipotent, omniscient. He knows how to take. He knows the process. So many flowers are coming. Revatīnandana: Then, when you can see a flower in this consciousness, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Through that flower, Kṛṣṇa is smiling at you. He is offering, He is smiling at you through that flower, and He is there, smiling. Student (3): I can see a God, smiling at me from the flower. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. *Student (3): I see no relationship with the flower . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: So but you do not know who is God. That is the difference. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's saying: "I am the cause of everything. From Me the whole creation flows." He is the person who has designed the flower that you cannot design. And if you want to see Him directly, if you want to associate with Him personally, He says: "Only by pure love and devotion can I be seen." Therefore our yoga is to love Kṛṣṇa. And then you can see everything when you see Kṛṣṇa. Student (2): But this is your yoga , right? Revatīnandana: It's Kṛṣṇa's yoga . Student (2): Yeah okay, well, but . . . *Prabhupāda: yoga means connection. As soon as you study Kṛṣṇa in this way, you make your connection with Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga . yoga means connection, the Sanskrit word yoga . And the opposite word is viyoga , disconnection. yoga*-viyoga . So yoga means, real yoga means to connect your relationship, your identity, with Kṛṣṇa. That is called yoga . Hmm. So take little prasādam . Come on. Revatīnandana: Take some little sweet. Student (2): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Come on. Student (2): I can't. Prabhupāda: No, no, I will give you. Student (2): Thanks. Prabhupāda: So let us stop here. Next I can give some talk. Revatīnandana: All glories to Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) So Prabhupāda will take some rest now. Student (3): Thanks very much for talking to us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (guests leave) So bring little milk. Devotees: (indistinct discussion) 10 o'clock . . . quarter to Ten. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. (end) Conversation -- July 15, 1973, London (Conversation With Three College Students) Student (1): Is that what you're trying to do in your movement? Prabhupāda: (break) movement . . . I am talking of yoga system. What is my movement, that we shall discuss later on. First of all the question was the yoga . You asked me that. yoga means to control the mind and the senses. So if one is not able to control the mind and senses, he does not know what is the meaning of yoga . Student (1): Right. *Prabhupāda: That . . . you read Bhagavad*-gītā ? *(aside) Bring Bhagavad*-gītā . Revatīnandana: Do you understand the necessity of controlling the mind and the senses? Can you see why it is necessary? Why would you say it's . . . Student (1): Yes. Sort of. Not to the full extent. I can't see how it's necessary to a full extent, because I can't control the mind and the senses. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Call Pradyumna. Student (1): Because I can't completely control my mind and senses. Revatīnandana: The thing that is covered when we are always acting on the sensual platform, agitated in the mind, is we do not experience our self, our eternal self, which doesn't change. We become locked on the temporary platform. Student (1): Yeah. In normal life, you mean? Most people, you're talking about. *Revatīnandana: Yes. Because all of our attention is lodged in the mind and the senses, and we are lost to ourselves. So any kind of self*-realization process means that you have to control the mind and senses or you cannot be self-situated. Beyond being situated in the self, there may be more, but that's the first point. That's the basic point of yoga . Student (2): Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into it? Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into the yoga ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Revatīnandana: He wants to know . . . if being self*-situated is one thing, then where does Kṛṣṇa enter into the system? That's his question. *Prabhupāda: Self*-situated . . . when you are self-situated . . . just like in the water you are taking bath in a pool. Something has fallen on the water. Suppose your key has fallen. Now you'll have to find out. You are just trying to settle up the water and see where is the key. So when your mind and senses are controlled, then you can talk of Kṛṣṇa. Before that you cannot talk. Because Kṛṣṇa is missing, with uncontrolled mind, senses, you cannot capture Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. The same example: When the water is agitated, you cannot see where your things have fallen. You have to wait to make the water calm and quiet. Then you'll see, "Here is my key." Student (2): What are the ways in which . . . Prabhupāda: You come here. Take this. Student (2): How can we get to Kṛṣṇa? How do you get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Sixth Chapter, the practice of yoga . The process. Pradyumna: Should I read from the beginning? Prabhupāda: Hmm. You read. Read. Pradyumna: "To practice yoga . . ." "To practice yoga , one should go to a secluded place . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, first of all you have to find out secluded place. yoga practice is not possible in a hotel or in a public place. It is not possible. You have to find out a secluded place. First condition. Then? Pradyumna: ". . . and should lay kuśa grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth." Prabhupāda: Then there is process of making the āsana , deerskin, kuśāsana , then cloth. You have to sit down in that āsana. Āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇ . . . then? Pradyumna: "The seat should neither be too high nor too low." Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there. "It should not be too high nor too low." Then? Pradyumna: "And should be situated in a sacred place." Prabhupāda: A sacred place. Just like formerly, those who were practicing yoga , they were going to Gaṅgotri, where the Ganges is coming down, in the Himalaya, in the Haridwar, in a secluded, sacred place. These are the condition, first condition. So where you are getting these condition fulfilled? You cannot practice yoga in a hotel or in a club. That is not possible. Student (2): How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? Pradyumna: How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? How do you tell? Revatīnandana: What is a sacred place? Prabhupāda: Sacred place, generally we take as a lonely place, solitary place. If it is not solitary, it is not sacred. Student (2): Is sacred the same as solitary? Prabhupāda: Yes. They used to sit down in the Himalaya where the Ganges is coming. That is a sacred place. If you go simply on the Ganges side on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, you will find immediately purified your mind. Immediately. Or on a seaside where there is nobody disturbing. These are sacred places. Then? Pradyumna: "The yogī should then sit on it very firmly." Prabhupāda: Then yogī has to sit down very firmly like this. Yes, straight, perpendicularly. Then? Pradyumna: "And should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses." Prabhupāda: Then he has to practice meditation for controlling the mind and the senses. First of all āsana , place, sacred place; now, āsana , secluded place, alone. That is stated. These are the yogic process.(break) Student (3): What do you mean by control your mind, I mean, control your senses? If your senses are controlled, can you see anything you wish or hear anything you wish? Or taste anything you wish? Prabhupāda: (aside) Just explain what is control, mind and senses. Revatīnandana: Well, controlling, being in control of your mind and senses, means that whatever destination you fix up with your intelligence—you understand, you want a particular result—then if you are in control of your mind and senses, then it means that it won't disturb you. Prabhupāda: First of all . . . first of all thing is the, what is the aim of practicing yoga ? So to achieve that end, that purpose, you have to control the mind, because mind is very flickering, going here, there, there, there. So first of all you must know what is the purpose of practicing yoga , why you should practice yoga . So in order to achieve that goal, you have to concentrate your mind, and therefore you have to control the mind going here and there. That is control. Mind business is acceptance and rejecting. This is mind's business. Immediately I accept, "It is very good"; again, next moment, "No, no, it is not good. Reject it." This is called flickering mind. So by yoga practice you have to make your mind in such a way that whatever you decide, that is correct, not the state of rejecting and accepting. So first of all, you have to know why you are practicing yoga . As you asked the question, "Why control of mind?" then the next question will be, "Why you are practicing? What is your aim?" You are going to practice yoga . Why? What is the aim? Student (2): Is it to realize God? Prabhupāda: That's nice. Therefore you must have to concentrate upon God; therefore you have to control your mind. You have to withdraw your mind from any other engagement, only concentrate on God. Then the . . . what is God? Student (2): That's what I'm trying to find out. Prabhupāda: No, if you want to concentrate, find out God . . . do you mean to say simply by practicing, you'll find out? You must know what is God. Then suppose you are purchasing some ticket. You do not where to go. You do not know. You say: "I'll have to find out where to go." What is this? Then why you are purchasing ticket? Student (2): Yeah. How can you focus your mind on God before you know what He is? Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: He said: "How can you focus your mind on God before you know what God is? Prabhupāda: Yes. So then what is God? Student (1): That's what I came to ask you. Prabhupāda: Then? Revatīnandana: He wants to know. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa. So if you concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is yoga . That is first*-class yoga . That is stated. You . . . list the last . . . *He is first*-class yogī who is always concentrating his mind on Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Why Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only on Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . yogīnām api sarveśām (BG 6.47). (aside) You read the translation. Pradyumna: "Of all yogīs , he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the highest yoga . So to concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is highest perfection of yoga . Student (1): Yeah, but I want to know why Kṛṣṇa in particular. Prabhupāda: Then if there is question of "Why?" then you do not come to us. You can ask somebody else. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the yogīs , all the saintly person, therefore . . . there is no question of "Why?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the decision of the Vedic literature. All the ācāryas . We have to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), big personalities. Now in India, the big personalities in the modern age, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya, all of them accept kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . Formerly, five thousand years ago, Vyāsadeva; before that, Nārada. Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no question about Kṛṣṇa's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Why? Because these people accept, the śāstra says, the *Vedas* says; therefore He is the Supreme Personality. Student (1): I don't follow at all . . . Prabhupāda: Then you'll never be able to follow. Revatīnandana: Now, just see, if the revealed scriptures . . . Prabhupāda: No, no revealed scripture . . . just like why do you accept the Queen as the supreme? Why? Students: We don't. Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane. Student (1): . Yeah, but why . . . I mean, there's a thousand . . . Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are . . . by law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else. Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the Queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the Queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything . . . "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done? Student (3): But we can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, that . . . that is . . . you have to see through the śāstra, śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra , authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly see. You cannot say that. Student (1): Do you believe that there are other ways . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of belief. Now let us quest . . . we believe that, "If I see, that is all right." But what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see beyond this wall. Does it mean there is nothing? So what is the value of your seeing? First of all you consider. You are questioning that, "I cannot see," but what is the value of your seeing? Student (3): My seeing the electric lamp tells me that it is . . . Prabhupāda: Now, now, now, but you are seeing the electric lamp, but why do you believe so much on your seeing power? You cannot see so many things, even though you have got the eyes. Student (3): I have no reason not to believe. Prabhupāda: No, that is not good. If you say: "I cannot see beyond this wall. There is nothing," nobody will take your words. Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall . . . Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that. Student (2): We're not denying that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know . . . Prabhupāda: You have to know by the process, by the process. You have to know by the process. Just like can you see your father? Student (2): Can I see him? Prabhupāda: Eh. You cannot see? You can see? Student (2): Well, I can see him. Prabhupāda: So how you can see? Who is your father, how you can see? Student (2): Who is he? Who is my father? Prabhupāda: Why? Why you accept somebody as your father? Why? Student (2): Only because my mother told me. Prabhupāda: Huh, that's right. (laughter) But you do not see. You do not see. So you have to believe the authority. Then you can see. Student (2): Yeah. Yeah, but . . . Prabhupāda: Your father existed before your birth, so you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says: "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy. Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father. Revatīnandana: So to come to your point, as he was pointing out, in the past, back hundreds of years, thousands of years, all the great authorities of spiritual knowledge and yoga have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Personality of Godhead. And these ancient *Vedas* , they confirm it clearly in many, many places. Now, if someone comes and he says something else than Kṛṣṇa is God—"I am God" or "This light is God . . ." Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse *Revatīnandana: . . . then its different, you see. That's why not Guru Maharaj*-ji. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam (BG 10.12), in the Tenth Chapter. Pradyumna: 10.10? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Pradyumna: *"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages, such as Nārada, Asita, Devala . . ." Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority. Pradyumna: ". . . and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14)? Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye . . . Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava. Pradyumna: . . . yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ : "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately he understands Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14): "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And "You are accepted by Devala, Nārada, Vyāsa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the ācāryas have accepted. Then I'll follow: mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). I'll have to follow great personalities." The same reason: mother says this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished. Why should you waste your time? Student (1): Say we say that Kṛṣṇa is God. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): If we . . . let's just suppose we say Kṛṣṇa is God. Then do you believe that there are other ways, apart from the way that you're going, to get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: yoga means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Yeah, right, but I mean practically . . . Prabhupāda: So when you understand Kṛṣṇa, then there is no need of yoga . Student (1): I don't think you could ever understand God. I don't see how you could ever understand God. Prabhupāda: No, if you go to the place . . . just like if you go to the airport, then you can understand which airship is starting from which gate, which gate. There are so many things you can see. But if you do not approach the airport, simply in other place, how you can study airport? First of all come to Kṛṣṇa, then try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And if you understand Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated. First of all we have to know that, "Here is *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." Then you try to understand. But if you do not approach there, where is your question of understanding Him? Student (2): Yeah, but somebody else will say: "You come to us, and I'll do this to you, and you'll see God." Prabhupāda: We do . . . we are not concerned with "some." We are concerned with the authorities, that's all. Somebody says, "He is not your father." We are not concerned. My mother says: "He is father." That's all. Student (2): Yeah, but if my mother tells me, I only believe it . . . Prabhupāda: Then you are unfortunate. If your mother tells you lies, then you are unfortunate. *Student (2): Yeah, but I only believe her because I give her the authority. You make Bhagavad*-gītā your authority. Prabhupāda: But generally we have to believe. Generally we have to believe mother; there is no other way. To understand the father, generally you have to accept the statement of mother. If your mother tells you lies, that is misfortune. Student (1): Yeah, but you're not giving us any sort of answers. You're just sort of saying, "Believe in us. Assume that you believe in us." So why don't you give us an answer? Prabhupāda: No, believe . . . you have to believe. You have to believe. Otherwise you cannot make progress. You have to believe. Student (1): Yeah, but say you're in a position of not particularly believing in anybody. I mean, there's loads of organizations going around, "Believe in us, believe in us." Prabhupāda: No, if you don't believe, that is a different thing *Revatīnandana: No, what he's saying is this. Now he's saying also, this Guru Maharaj*-ji, he says: "You believe in me, and I'll show you everything." Now he's saying that . . . what he's accusing is . . . Prabhupāda: But who cares for the Guru Mahārāja? Revatīnandana: He cares. Prabhupāda: Here is Nārada, Devala, Vyāsa, authority. Student (3): No, we're not saying we do, but some people do, anyway. Student (1): Yeah, they'll argue just as convincingly as you. Prabhupāda: But everyone can say: "I am God." Then how you'll understand? If Guru Mahārāja says, I can say also. He can say. Then go on studying who is God. The same question: Everyone says: "I am your father," "I am your father," "I am your father," but whom you have to believe? You have to believe only mother. Student (3): Okay, well who's the mother in this case? Revatīnandana: The śāstra , revealed scriptures. They give information about the father. *Prabhupāda: Śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Student (1): What about the Bible? That'll tell me something else altogether. Revatīnandana: Yes. No, it won't. It will tell you almost identical information. If you go in the Bible, it will say: "God is your father." "Father" means he is sufficient to beget a son. Now, if God is a void, how can a son come out from a void? Prabhupāda: We have no such experience. *Revatīnandana: But if God is a person, then He can have son. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the father of every living being." Therefore Bible and Bhagavad*-gītā , they are saying the same thing, but not that "God is void or light." Not saying that. Somebody else is saying that. Therefore we are very, very skeptical now. He has not got the authority of these scriptures. If he says, "Your father is a void," that is nonsense. Prabhupāda: And where is our experience—from void a son is born? Where is your experience? Student (3): What do you mean? Prabhupāda: Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void? Student (3): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to . . . Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities. Student (3): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't . . . no, right. But I mean this isn't logical, is it? Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority. Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself. Revatīnandana: Yes. Student: Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct. Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic. Student (3): Because so many people say different things, which conflict. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are taking the shelter of logic. You are taking the shelter. Student (1): Logic . . . logic is arguing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, logic means argument, reasoning. Our logic is because Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all great person, authorities, we accept. Our logic is simple. Student (1): But Christians might say the same thing. They might say: "Look at the Bible. This is our logic." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. They accept God; we accept God. The only difference is they do not know who is God, but we know who is God. Student (1): No, they know who is God as well. Prabhupāda: No. Revatīnandana: You won't get any good information about God. "God is great. God created"—finished. That's not very much information. God's son? A little more information about God's son. Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have. Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see. Student (1): In which way? Revatīnandana: In these *Vedas* . There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book, in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the *Vedas* give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle—"God is there. God is a person"—is in both places. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son. Student (1): God exists now. Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists. Student (1): But therefore where is He, if He's a person? Prabhupāda: Why is He? Revatīnandana: Where is He? Prabhupāda: Where is He? He is with you. He is here. But you have no eyes to see, that's all. Revatīnandana: He says: "I'm sitting in everyone's heart, and from Me comes knowledge, remembrance and forgetfulness." If you turn toward Him, He will give you knowledge, and you'll be able to see Him. But you have to find out who to turn toward. Then you can turn. So from saintly authorities, the line of masters and the *Vedas* , we find out where to turn. And if you turn properly, then by Kṛṣṇa's grace, you'll see Kṛṣṇa. He'll reveal Himself in the course of time. Student (2): Have you all seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He asked if we have all seen Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: We are daily, every moment, seeing. Every moment. Otherwise, do you mean to say we are blindly following something? Student (2): No, I'm not saying that. I'm just asking if someone comes along and joins you, do they see Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, why don't you see Kṛṣṇa? There is picture of Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see, driving horse? Here is Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see? If you see the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? Student (2): No. Prabhupāda: No, then what can I talk with? Student (2): All I was saying was is it . . . when someone comes . . . Prabhupāda: Here the photograph of your . . . seeing the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? That's your argument? Student (1): No, it's seeing a photograph of your father. Prabhupāda: False? Revatīnandana: It's seeing a photograph of the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now . . . but God is Absolute. God's and God's photograph, there is no difference. God's and God's name, there is no difference. Therefore God is Absolute. He is not relative. You can say: "The photograph is not my father," that because it is relative. But God is Absolute. God's name, God's form, God's pastimes—everything is God. That you have to understand, Absolute nature. Otherwise, are these boys and so many thousands and thousands of devotees . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa, this name, is different from Kṛṣṇa, are they foolishly simply chanting "Kṛṣṇa"? Student (1): I don't know, but . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's photograph is the same. That you have to understand. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. Student (1): Do you mean Kṛṣṇa is Absolute and Kṛṣṇa is everything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): Then why does Kṛṣṇa have a specific form? Prabhupāda: And why not? Kṛṣṇa is everything. Suppose I if I say: "I am everything in this, my institution," does it mean I have lost my personality? Student (1): But you are not . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. If I say, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . if somebody says that, "Bhakti Vedānta Swami is everything," does it mean I have lost my personality? That is material understanding. Kṛṣṇa keeps His personality; still, He is everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. In the government there are so many cabinet ministers, offices, etc. And in every cabinet minister and in every office the will of the prime minister is going on. Therefore in one sense the prime minister is everything. Still, the prime minister is a person who is in control of all those cabinet officers and offices. And you won't find the prime minister in each office, but he's there, because of his influence. In the same way, you are in Kṛṣṇa's energies, and He is everywhere through His energies, but He remains the person in control. The same thing. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example: because the prime minister's energy is working in that office, so the prime minister is there present. So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun, sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient. Now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire. *So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), "earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies," so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa, because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh, it is hot. Oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult. Student (3): To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, one needs faith that Kṛṣṇa exists, and . . . Prabhupāda: Not only "Kṛṣṇa exists," "What is my relationship with Kṛṣṇa? What is my duty in that relationship?" Everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. Who can produce this? (referring to flower) Who can produce something like this? Supposing you take your best chemists and engineers . . . Student (3): Well, you must call it God, mustn't you. Revatīnandana: And you see who can produce, right? They cannot produce anything with this texture, this nice smell, you see? Prabhupāda: He knows it. Student (3): It doesn't smell. Revatīnandana: So many persons can make an artificial flower that's not as nice as that one, but they cannot reproduce that. And then we say that Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, who is full of knowledge, full of beauty, full of power. With full knowledge, beauty and power . . . Prabhupāda: Because He has got full knowledge, He knows how to . . . now, this flower has come from earth, and other flower has come also from the earth. But the fragrance is within the earth. But you cannot take the fragrance from the earth. You do not know. But Kṛṣṇa is taking. Just see. Therefore His knowledge is perfect. Omnipotent, omniscient. He knows how to take. He knows the process. So many flowers are coming. Revatīnandana: Then, when you can see a flower in this consciousness, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Through that flower, Kṛṣṇa is smiling at you. He is offering, He is smiling at you through that flower, and He is there, smiling. Student (3): I can see a God, smiling at me from the flower. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. *Student (3): I see no relationship with the flower . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: So but you do not know who is God. That is the difference. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's saying: "I am the cause of everything. From Me the whole creation flows." He is the person who has designed the flower that you cannot design. And if you want to see Him directly, if you want to associate with Him personally, He says: "Only by pure love and devotion can I be seen." Therefore our yoga is to love Kṛṣṇa. And then you can see everything when you see Kṛṣṇa. Student (2): But this is your yoga , right? Revatīnandana: It's Kṛṣṇa's yoga . Student (2): Yeah okay, well, but . . . *Prabhupāda: yoga means connection. As soon as you study Kṛṣṇa in this way, you make your connection with Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga . yoga means connection, the Sanskrit word yoga . And the opposite word is viyoga , disconnection. yoga*-viyoga . So yoga means, real yoga means to connect your relationship, your identity, with Kṛṣṇa. That is called yoga . Hmm. So take little prasādam . Come on. Revatīnandana: Take some little sweet. Student (2): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Come on. Student (2): I can't. Prabhupāda: No, no, I will give you. Student (2): Thanks. Prabhupāda: So let us stop here. Next I can give some talk. Revatīnandana: All glories to Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) So Prabhupāda will take some rest now. Student (3): Thanks very much for talking to us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (guests leave) So bring little milk. Devotees: (indistinct discussion) 10 o'clock . . . quarter to Ten. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. (end) Room Conversation -- July 16, 1973, London *Prabhupāda: Make show. So we should not increase the show very, very much. Show shortcut show. That's all. Real business is... Āula, bāula, kartābhajā, neḍā, daraveśa, sāṅi sahajiyā, sakhībhekī, smārta, jāta*-gosāñi, they have been condemned by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, smārta and jāta-gosāñi. Smārta-paṇḍita, very serious about performing ceremonial rituals, they are called smārtas. This Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, also Vaiṣṇava-smṛti, that is also imitation of smārtaism. It is called smṛti. So at least in Europe and America, they will never be able to take all these things. The things should be made shortcut; *at the same time, they should be successful. So that is chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra, depending on... As soon as we have got some time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Either loudly or silent... As far as possible loudly; *if not possible, silently. But the tongue must go, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. The tongue must work. And as far as possible, should be heard... That is... And officially, krkshaharama (Prabhupāda chants very fast with words running into each other indistinctly). Not like that (chants again like that) Not like that. That will not... Every word should be distinctly chanted and heard, not official. So stress on this point. As far as possible, people should be encouraged to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra and try to bring the ecstasy and dance. Even there is no ecstasy, dance, it will bring ecstasy. Dancing is so nice. Chanting, dancing and take prasādam. Take rest. That's all. Not that you shall take rest like Kumbhakarṇa. (Prabhupāda laughs) Just to, I mean to say, answer the call of this deficient body, we have to take little rest. But as far as possible this should be conquered. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over eating, sleeping... Stress on saṅkīrtana, and let them chant and dance as long as possible. If they can chant and dance twenty-four hours, that is very good. That should be stressed. Just see, this boy yesterday, he came, he said, "Oh, I like this saṅkīrtana very much." Immediately. He was talking of so much, yoga and this and that, so many nonsense, but he came this morning. He said, "Oh, I will come again. It is very nice." Saṅkīrtana has got so power. Stress on saṅkīrtana, chant yourself, induce others, dance. Whole thing will be a successful. And especially outside India, these rituals and ceremonials, that will be simply artificial. They cannot take it seriously. But saṅkīrtana they can take seriously. This is practical. And if you recite all the Vedic hymns throughout the whole day they will join, but they will not benefit out of it. So why should we waste. Is that all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes. (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda, regarding Pradyumna's work on the Third Canto? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: There are some synonyms, and when they are finished then the book can be published. Prabhupāda: So he will never finish, so what... (end) Conversation with Father Simon and Brother Roger -- July 17, 1973, London Prabhupāda: Shall I address you as father? Father Simon: I’m Father Simon, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: This is Brother Roger. Prabhupāda: So father’s father. Father has got a father? Is it not? Father Simon: Yes (laughs). Prabhupāda: So let us go. I am father, I have got my father, my father has got father. In this way, who is the ultimate father? There must be one ultimate father. Because I have got my father, my father has got father. So you go on, it does not mean that on the tenth generation or twentieth generation I could not see the father. That does not mean there was no father. There must have—a father. Therefore, originally, there is the Supreme Father, and your Christian religion recognizes God as the Father. You pray “oh Father”. So, our experience is that I am also father, my father is also father but we are all persons. Therefore, the original Father, the beginning Father—He must be a person. What is your opinion? He cannot be impersonal. Do you agree or not? Father Simon: Ah, yes, we believe in… Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: God as person, yeh quite. Prabhupāda: So, father is controller. Father controls me, I am son. My father controls me, father controls the family. Therefore, in a small jurisdiction the father is the controller. Similarly, his father he is also controller, the Supreme Father is the Supreme Controller. That is Vedic version: *The Supreme Father is Kṛṣṇa. All controller. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—His form is not like us, His form is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss. So why I am being the son of the same Father by descendance—why my body is not like Him? My body is not eternal, I have to give up this body. My body is full of ignorance. There is no knowledge, I do not know what is going on within my body. Still, I claim it is my body. I eat but I do not know how the eatables turn into so many secretions, turn into blood, into urine, into so many things. They are divided, the big mechanical process is going on. But I do not know exactly. And when there is some disturbance in the metabolism of the function of the bodily machine, I go to the doctor because I do not know. So, therefore, I am full of ignorance—my body. *And sac*-cid-ānanda: sat means “eternal”; cit means “full of knowledge”; *and ānanda means “full of bliss.” So, this body is full of miseries. It is not blissful. Apart from all other miserable conditions, we have to meet death, which we do not want. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: You may be very proud of your advancement of knowledge. But the main problems of life—birth, death, old age, and disease—there is no remedy. You have not discovered any remedy for this miserable condition. Therefore, my body is temporary, it is full of ignorance, it is full of miseries. God’s body is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of pleasure. This is the distinction between God and myself. Otherwise, God is also a living being—supreme living being. I am also living being. That is stated in the *Vedas*: God is the supreme eternal, among the other eternals—other eternals who are the living entities. We are also eternal. You do not die after the destruction of the body: So, because we are now in the conditional stage of material life, we are undergoing this birth, death, old age, and disease. Otherwise, we are as good as Kṛṣṇa or God, we have got our spiritual body which is now covered. Now, our main business is how to become aloof from this conditional life. That is our main business in human life. We should not act in such a way that we become more conditioned. Just like a prisoner in the prison house—his business is how to finish that period of punishment and go out of the prison. Not to increase more entanglement so that he will continue prison life again, again, again. So that people do not understand—they are trying to be happy in the prison house, which is impossible. Prison house is never meant for happiness. It is meant for giving distress to the criminals so that he may come to his senses. But unfortunately, they are making association, combination to become happy in the prison house. That is their ignorance. In the prison house, in the material world, there is no possibility of happiness. Therefore, the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the main business of human beings—especially because in the animal life it is not possible. They cannot make any progress of spiritual life. But in the human life also, if we remain just like animals, then we are missing the opportunity. *So, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that people may not live like animals. Therefore, all our students, they follow strictly the prohibited principles: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. *Illicit sex is animal. Animal has no—in the animal society there is no marriage. Any man*-woman mixes and have sex life. That is animal—illicit sex. Similarly, human being eating meat—that is also animalism. The tigers, the jackals, the cats, dogs—they can eat meat. The human being—just like you have brought so many nice things. They have got—God has given so many nice things—why they should eat meat? And so far intoxication—in the material condition of life we are already intoxicated. Our brain is agitated—crazy. Because we are accepting this body: I am not this body, but I am accepting this body—this is madness. So, if he is indulging again further intoxication, then when will he come to his senses? Therefore, intoxication is also animalism. And gambling—that is also another lower class of engagement. Why should we gamble? We are destined to some extent suffering or enjoying according to my past karma. We cannot decrease it or increase it. That is not possible. So why should we indulge in gambling? Better that time be utilized for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—God consciousness. So, this is our program. We are pushing on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of the science of God. It is not a sentimental religious movement. Therefore, we welcome everyone. Everyone from the human society. And they are coming, they are understanding. Kṛṣṇa was not known—it was known, but not so elaborately—four or five years ago when this European and American, they are accepting this Kṛṣṇa cult. And I think there is very good chance of cooperating with the Christian religion, because Christian religion is also propagating God consciousness. Hm. *But we claim to be a little more accurate—we get the name of God, His activities, His characteristics—everything—stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So, if we cooperate, then the people of the world will be benefited. That is our submission. Hm. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think it is wonderful that so many young people are being inspired to seek the things of God. Brother Roger: Yeah. Father Simon: And being helped to love God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one Father in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that “these boys, they are our boys. From Christian or from Jewish group they have joined this movement. But before that, they are not interested about God. And how it is that they have become mad after God?” This is the statement of a Christian priest in Boston. Father Simon: I think the great need of this time is for real spiritual teaching, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: (indistinct) before. *Prabhupāda: And because Bhagavad*-gītā, we understand that is the science of God. God is explaining Himself—what He is. God cannot be known by our mental speculation; He is unlimited. But if He reveals Himself, we can know something about Him. That is the statement of *Bhāgavatam*: Our present senses are covered by these material ingredients, therefore it is not possible to speculate about God by these material senses. The senses are to be purified to come to the spiritual position. Then, when we apply our senses in the service of the master of the senses… *God is the master of the senses. His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka means “senses.” In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, God says—Kṛṣṇa says—“I have got my hands and legs everywhere.” So, my hand is God’s hand. We can easily understand—because a son’s body is created by the father. So, the hand of the son is also hand of the father. So therefore, our senses—our hands, legs, and everything—they are being God’s property. They should be engaged for God’s activities—not for any other reason. Just like my hand, I use it for my purpose, my hand is not used for your purpose. Similarly, if we realize that the proprietor of my senses is the Supreme Lord, therefore my senses should be engaged for the service of the Lord. *Actually, they are not mine—they are Kṛṣṇa’s, God’s. So that is the formula of bhakti*-yoga: We are thinking now “I am Indian, I am Englishman, I am German, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim.” They are thinking like that. These are all designations. So, one should be free from all designations: He should be purified in God consciousness. “I am servant of God,” or “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now I am thinking “I am servant of my family, I am servant of my community, I am servant of my nation, I am servant of my group…” So many things. “I am this, I am that.” These are all designations. *Therefore, the formula is sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ—one should be free from all designations. That is called brahma-jñāna—this real identity is “I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God.” When you come to this sense, then my senses are purified. With that purified sense, we can serve God. That is called bhakti-yoga: Hṛṣīka means “senses.” When the senses are purified, then in that purified sense we serve the Supreme—that is liberation: (aside:): Call that paṇḍita mahāśaya. (Pradyumna) *Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate—that is spiritual existence. So here, our students, they are no more identifying themselves either as Christian or Hindu or German or Englishman or Indian. They are thinking themselves as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So here is factual unity—factual unity, unity on the platform of spirit soul. And unity on the material platform is not possible. Material platform—there is no possibility of… so many times they have tried unity on the material platform. It has failed. That is not possible. Because on the material plane… (aside:): This door is open. Close it. So, on the spiritual platform there is possibility of imitating (?). Otherwise, there is no possibility of ending it. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think that we must hope and pray that the Lord will use all these stirring’s to his end. Glory to draw everyone close to Him and we won’t be sidetracked as you say into labels and designations. His (mumble) people so easily take on the externals same thing. Something some craze or fashion or whatever. And identify themselves with that and it becomes another limited thing, another prison. And then the very things that God gives us to enable us to grow out of the prison, to break out of the prison. We build them up into another little prison and they witness that all the religions I think is to this great freedom that God has and that God wants us to have. To get beyond these, to get beyond the merely externals… Prabhupāda: Boliye (Hindi) Father Simon: And beyond the (chuckles)… Prabhupāda: I puzzled; I do not follow. Revaténandana: Well, he says it’s, it’s very essential. He agrees it’s essential to get beyond these material designations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: And into the higher freedom that God has. That He wants us all to have, is that? Father Simon: Yes. Revaténandana: That’s a very brief summary (laughter). *Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the freedom because we are part and parcel of God. God is complete free—His freedom is not dependent on others—svarāṭ. Just like we get some knowledge from our teacher, so God is not dependent like that: svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (BG 3.22). He is self-sufficient, He is complete free. That is the distinction between God and us. And because we are part and parcel of God, we have got little freedom. When you misuse that little freedom that is our material condition. When we use that freedom properly, that is our spiritual condition. Father Simon: Our great conviction is that it is always God reaching out to us and that if we call Him—Lord. If we call Him the Lord then in surrendering our human, apparent human freedom to Him. He leads us beyond ourselves… Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: He is always confronting us with the, the new step that we can take towards Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that you give up any, everything else you just simply surrender to Me, and I give you all protection. Father Simon: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. (aside:) Find that verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Real religion is to surrender to God. That is real religion. And other’s religion which you have manufactured that maybe temporarily beneficial but that is not real religion. In Bhāgavata also, it is confirmed: *That type of religion is first class following which one becomes a surrendered devotee to the Supreme Lord. That is first class religion. And, ahaituky apratihatā, that surrender is without any motive. The surrender should be: God is great, I am His servant, so I fully surrender unto Him. Not that I’ll get some motivated profit. There is no such thing, because He will take care of me, He knows everything. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Just like a child is fully surrendered to the parents, the parent is taking care of what the child needs, how the child will be comfortable. So, therefore, our only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then He will take—there is no need of asking anything from Him. There is no need. He knows, He’s omnipotent, omniscient. He knows my needs and He promises: *Just like exactly the father takes care of the child. He knows how the child will be happy, what does he require. Now he requires food, now he requires rest. So, everything is there, he is surrendered simply to the lap of mother, to the care of father. And that kind of surrender is the religion. Completely. And that is, Kṛṣṇa says: sarva*-dharmān parityajya. We might have manufactured so many things as religion. Why difference of religion? Why the Hindus, the Christians, the Mohammedans—they think that my religion is different from the others. Religion cannot be different. Religion means God consciousness. If God is one, then religion must be one. And that one religion is surrender to God, that’s all. It doesn’t require any ritualistic ceremony. “God is great, my dear Lord, You are great, I am Your subservient. I forgot it. From this day I surrender unto You. You take charge of me.” That’s all. Even I haven’t got to say “You take charge.” He says “I will take charge.” There is no need of saying also. Simply I have to say: “From this day I am fully surrendered unto You. If You like, You give me protection; if You like, You can kill me; whatever You like, You can do it.” *Just like now, there is no slave. Formerly a slave, the master could do anything with him. Similarly, if we become a slave*-like, then He has—God has—the right to do whatever He likes with me. And that is surrender. And that is religion. That religion is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā: What is the translation? Pradyumna: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.” Prabhupāda: So, we suffer for our sinful activities, so we should surrender to God and stop our sinful activities. It is not that because I have surrendered to God so I can go on continue with my sinful activity, God will give me protection. No, that is not. You stop—no more sinful activities. Of course, anyone who has surrendered to God, he cannot indulge in sinful activities. Because he will abide by the orders of God, he cannot be sinful: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā If anyone is fully surrendered, then he has got all the good qualities of the demigods: Surāḥ means “the demigods in higher planetary systems.” Devatā. They have got very good qualities, so in the devotee all the good qualities manifest. That is the test. We cannot find any fault with a devotee because everything is good qualities. And on the contrary: One who is not a devotee, surrendered soul, he has no good quality. *By his mental speculation he will simply be materially attached. That is the distinction between devotee and non*-devotee. For devotee there is no more mental speculation. So, one decision: “I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.” That’s all. Go on. Then follow the words of Kṛṣṇa: (aside) Find that verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.” *Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Our process is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and hearing. This is manmanā—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And then worshipping the Deity in the temple. Manmanā bhava mad*-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī—worshipping Me. Hm. So, we have got daily class, daily worship, all the devotees they take part. They have got 24 hours engagement. So, mind cannot be diverted from Kṛṣṇa. That is manmanā. Somehow or other he is thinking of Kṛṣṇa—“Now I have to go to preach there, I have to make him member, or I’ll have to lecture there.” Or here also, “Now there is ārati, now there is bhoga, now there is class.” In this way they are engaged thinking of Kṛṣṇa 24 hours. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. You have seen our books? Father Simon: I’ve seen some of your, your books—yes. Prabhupāda: You can show our books. Father Simon: You have services at the same times of the day, every day, do you—when you all come together for worship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And prayer. Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got… Father Simon: Yes, impressed. Prabhupāda: From morning 4 o’clock to night 10 o’clock, we have got engagements. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: We are publishing all these books in all important languages. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: English, German, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese. And in India—Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati—as far as possible, we are publishing in all the languages. Father Simon: You have your own printing press? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are not printed in our press. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: They are printed in Japan. Father Simon: In Japan? Prabhupāda: We cannot print so nicely. (Laughter) Now we are going to print in Germany also; here is the dummy. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: We are also printing in England. We have done our first magazine in England recently. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are expanding. And we are selling our books also very nicely. Yes. In America we are selling on the average about $3,000 daily. Is it not? Revaténandana: I think so. Pradyumna: At least. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Los Angeles alone, we are collecting $1,000, and similarly, in New York. Pradyumna: In New York also. Prabhupāda: And taking all other places, not less than $3,000 daily. Father Simon: Lord Caitanya was the founder of your movement originally. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa was the founder 5,000 years ago. The founder—Kṛṣṇa is the founder and it is coming from time immemorial. Because God is origin, so you cannot find out in which date it begins. But from historical point of view, this movement was started by Kṛṣṇa 5,000 years ago when Kṛṣṇa was present. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, 4th chapter, that He instructed this philosophy formally to the sun god. Now if you take that, it becomes 40 millions or 400 millions of years ago. He spoke to the sun god. So, apart from that, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: Vivasvate—vivasvate means “the president of the sun planet”—Vivasvān. He is the present president of the sun planet. Or King. There must be one predominator in every planet. So, the name of the person who is predominating in the sun planet is Vivasvān. So, from the historical point of view, this philosophy was instructed to sun god over 400 millions of years ago. And apart from that, if we take the history of modern age, 5,000 years ago when the battle of Kurukṣetra took place, He instructed. So, from the last 5,000 years it is coming, but sometimes it is misinterpreted, the lineage is broken. Therefore, again somebody comes on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he makes adjustment. Similarly, 500 years ago, the same movement was rejuvenated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And we are also following these same footsteps, we are trying to preach this same cult in the Western countries. Now, since 1966, but the movement is very old. It is not that we have started a new movement. No. The same thing which was spoken 400 millions of years ago to the sun god. The same thing which was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna, and the same thing which was rejuvenated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we are presenting the same thing. And the proof is that either 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender unto Me.” That’s all. And we are preaching surrender to Kṛṣṇa, so where is the difference? We are speaking the same thing. Either it was spoken 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, there is no change in the movement. We do not say, “Now we have advanced so much, there is no need of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, you can go on with your own work.” (laughter) We don’t say that. We say the same thing, repetition of the same thing. Therefore, it is called disciplic succession—we don’t change. How it can be changed? God is eternal, we are also eternal, our relationship is eternal. Therefore, the service must be eternal, there is no question of change. Everything is eternal: *These are the statements of the Vedas, and the Bhagavad*-gītā also: In the Vedānta (1.1.2) also it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ. In Bhāgavata (1.1.1) also it is said: ah, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya janmādy asya yataḥ. The same thing is there in every Vedic literature: By studying *Vedas*, one has to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, so anyone who takes Kṛṣṇa as He speaks about Himself, then his knowledge is perfect. *Because what Kṛṣṇa says—that is perfect. Perfect means in any statement where there is no mistake, there is no illusion, there is no cheating. And there is no imperfectness of the senses—that is perfect statement. Our so*-called knowledge is gathered by the imperfect senses; our senses are not perfect. Unless we hear about the sun planet, if we see the sun planet by our eyes—direct perception—we see just like a disc. But when you take authoritative statement from geologist and others, then you understand that it is so many times bigger than this earth. Therefore, direct perception of the sun globe is not perfect. So, nowadays there are so many scientific theories, philosophical. They authorise, “I think; I think, in my opinion.” But he does not think that he is imperfect—what is the value of his opinion? He does not think so. What is the value of his thinking if he is imperfect? And that is a fact, our senses are not perfect. I am proud of possessing these eyes, but I cannot understand anything if I see a thing from distant place, neither I can see the nearest eyeball or the eyelid. So, there are conditions. There is no light—I cannot see. So, I see under conditions. So, what is the perfection? But they write books, “I think, I see.” But what you see, nonsense? What is the value of your eyes? That is the defect. But God has no such defects, therefore whatever He says is perfect. (aside:) Find out this verse, vedāhaṁ samatītāni. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.” Prabhupāda: So, we should take knowledge from the person who knows the past, present and future. I may not know it because I am imperfect, but He knows me. So, our business is to receive knowledge from the Supreme Perfect, then our knowledge is perfect. Father Simon: I see in one of these books you talk about the beauty of God. Prabhupāda: Hm? Father Simon: Is this a theme that is important in your spirituality—that God reveals Himself as immensely beautiful and attractive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: So that when you begin to see Him… *Prabhupāda: Yes. God means He must be all*-attractive. Father Simon: Yes. *Prabhupāda: All*-attractive. His beauty must be. There are attractive features we can experience in this material world. If a man is very rich, he is attractive. If a man is very learned scholar, he is attractive. If a man is very strong, he is attractive. If a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. So, these are the attractive features. There are six kinds of attractive features—wealth, beauty, strength, influence, knowledge, renunciation; like that. So, God is endowed with all these attractive features—in full. That is the statement of the Vedas: Bhagavān—God’s, the etymological expression of God is Bhagavān. Bhaga means “opulences.” Nobody can be richer than Him, nobody can be wiser than Him, otherwise how God is great? Great in every respect—either in riches or in beauty or in knowledge or in reputation or in strength or in renunciation—everything. He must be the great. Nobody can be richer than God. In India, there is a rascal—he makes like this little gold. Some yogic mystic power, now he has become God. Revatīnandana: Makes what? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotees: Gold. Prabhupāda: Yes, he will show some magic, take a little gold. It will not stay, but by this he has become God. Devotee: He claims to have become God. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He claims to become God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He claims, but there are fools, and they accept also. So I say that if gold making is the qualification of God, then why shall I take this man as God? I shall take that man who has created gold mines. If that is the qualification of God. So, God has created this material world, and each and every planet there are millions and millions of goldmines. All over the universe. So why shall I take this cheat*-man—as God? Why not the big man who has created the goldmines, if that is the qualification of becoming God. Come to logic, eh? So, these things are going on, especially in India, they made so many (laughter)… There are so many rascals, they are claiming, and now here one rascal has come—another. Revaténandana: Yeah, he says this… His followers say, "When I take the secret session, they touch my eyes and I, I see some light. Nobody else can see," right. But they say, "I can see some light, therefore He is God." Prabhupāda: Who knows that you see? Revaténandana: What about this light? Prabhupāda: Then you say that you have seen, but nobody says… Revaténandana: Nobody else can see. You know (laughs). Prabhupāda: Then what nonsense God you are? Revaténandana: Yeah. But what a little, what a very little bit of light, you see. Everybody can see the sun (laughs). Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: There is so much light. Prabhupāda: But there are rascals, they follow like that. What can be done? God is so cheap that because he has seen some light, he has become God. Just see. What light he sees, nobody knows, and he says, “Nobody can see.” Then where is the confirmation? Who can say you’re actually seeing or not? So, this bluffing is going on. But when the real God is there, they are not accepting. Who is accepted by stalwart scholars, leading personality, ācāryas—that is not accepted. Somebody says, “I have seen some light, I am God”; *therefore, he is accepted. Cheap*-god. God says here that the whole universal material creation is resting in one fourth energy: (aside) Find out this verse. Pradyumna: Athavā bahunaitena? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: “But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself, I pervade and support this entire universe.” Revaténandana: That’s at the end of the tenth chapter. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is tenth chapter. Revaténandana: Tenth chapter, at the end of it, yeah. Father Simon: Detailed knowledge. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Father Simon: I think leads people closer to God, doesn’t it? Saint Teresa, one of the great Christian Saints, waged a lifelong campaign against people who knew a little and thought they knew everything. And she had a great belief in real learning because her experience of really learned priests was that even though they perhaps haven’t experienced much themselves, because they were really learning, they had a large understanding of what God could do and so were open to recognize His acts. But the semi*-lettered people—she called them “the half-educated people”—who have got a little bit of knowledge and then think, “This is it, I know everything.” They are the people who push everybody along a narrow little road and saying, “This is the way.” (chuckles) Prabhupāda: This is that. Anyone who is claiming that he has knowledge, he must receive the knowledge from the perfect. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, his knowledge is not perfect. Father Simon: Well, real knowledge is always very humble in some ways. Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Real knowledge is received from the perfect. Our process is that we accept knowledge in the descending process—not by the ascending process. There are two kinds of ways. By speculation, just like they are trying to know the sun, the moon—they are trying to go there. This is ascending process. Ascending process. But there is another process—descending process. The knowledge comes from the moon, from the sun, from other planets. But that is perfect knowledge, because that knowledge is coming from a person who actually resides—that is perfect knowledge. And because my speculative power is limited, therefore, I cannot understand anything by this speculative knowledge. Revaténandana: Even scriptures. If I study a scripture in the same way, I’ll try to understand it by my potency… Father Simon: Yeah. Revaténandana: I can make mistakes; I will make mistakes. Father Simon: Yes, scripture speaks with its own authority. And it is indirect… (indistinct) Revaténandana: If I don’t—I don’t hear, I don’t understand such good authority. Father Simon: I’ve suffered a lot from scripture scholars (chuckles) who are too clever to believe. And not clever (mumble)… *Prabhupāda: No. When there is no speculative knowledge, there is no question of belief. It is fact. There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: Now there is kingdom of God—every scripture, every religion accepts. Now if you want to find out where is that kingdom of God… So: The modern scientist says that to go to the highest planetary system it will take 40,000 of years. Now if you want to go to the spiritual kingdom which is far beyond this material world, so how you will go there? Because you cannot finish this material world even by 40,000 of years. You’re not going to live even 40 hundreds of years—or 40 years nowadays (chuckles). So, I will finish this material span—40,000 years—then we have to… So far, we have got information: the universe is covered by layers of five elements—earth, air, water, stock (?). So each layer is ten times more than the other layer. So, you have to penetrate through that, then you come to the spiritual sky. Then there is spiritual planets, and the highest planet is called Goloka Vṛndāvana, where Kṛṣṇa lives. *So therefore, if we want to go there by our own endeavour, then the Brahma*-saṁhitā says: If you travel millions of years to go to that planet with the speed of mind and air, still it will be unknown to you. This is ascending process. But when Kṛṣṇa comes, He gives the information: (aside) Find out. Tad dhāma paramaṁ. It is the information. Pradyumna: “That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.” *Prabhupāda: So, there is a place where there is no need of illumination by sunlight or moonlight—it is self*-illuminated. Just like we, the sun planet here, we have got one instance. The sun does not require any illumination, the planet itself is light. Similarly, the spiritual sky all the planets there—Vaikuṇṭha-loka—they are self-illuminating, there is no darkness. Therefore, this material world is called tamaḥ. Tamaḥ means “darkness.” Tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.3.28). The Vedic instruction is don’t remain in this dark world—it is by nature dark, therefore it requires this electricity. The sun, the moon… but there is another world which is self-illuminating—there is no need of… That is there stated, *So, we have to take knowledge in that way. There is spiritual world, here is the description. There are other descriptions also in Bhāgavatam. The spiritual world. There is also aeroplane, everything is there—but they are all spiritual. Here everything is material. Giving the best service to the human society—that, yat gatvā na nivartante—just try to go to that place wherefrom you haven’t got to return again. You live there eternally with full knowledge and bliss, and this is our business. And we are not manufacture this ideas—they are all stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. We are simply distributing that knowledge. Revatīnandana: Everybody else is trying to enjoy the prison house. Prabhupāda: Hah! Revatīnandana: And we are leaving (laughs). *Prabhupāda: We are kicking your… (Laughter) Kicking this nonsense, what is this? Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It is duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says: ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ—even if you go to the highest planet. You may get a duration of life—millions of years. But that does not mean you become eternal, that is not possible: ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna. If you are actually serious of having eternal life, blissful and full of knowledge—then you must go back to home, back to Godhead. That is possible: mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25)—my devotees go, come there, here. What is that? Pradyumna: “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.” *Prabhupāda: That’s it. So why not try for this? There is another verse: yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ, bhūtējyā yānti bhūtāni mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām Pradyumna: “Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.” *Prabhupāda: That’s all. So why should I go, waste my time to go to the ghosts and ancestor and demigod—why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Because I have to work for that, so why not work for the best? This is our function. It is clearly stated that you, if you prepare for going to the higher… Not in this way that I have got a sputnik, I shall go. No. That is not possible. You have to prepare yourself to go to the moon planet, to the sun planet, to the Venus. There are innumerable—you can go there, to the Brahma*-loka planet, yānti deva-vratā devān. So, you have to prepare in this life. Similarly, if you want to go to the pitṛ-loka and other places—you have to prepare. And if you prepare yourself to come to My place—you can come. So, what will be my duty—so why not work for going back to Kṛṣṇa’s place? That is intelligence. I have to work for going somewhere—if somebody says you can take ticket either for moon planet or sun planet or Vaikuṇṭha planet. Then what ticket I shall take? Give me the Vaikuṇṭha ticket (laughter). Why shall I take the sun planet or moon planet? This is intelligence—why shall I waste my time again? Give me that ticket. So, this is intelligence. Devotee: And you take the ticket by surrendering. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Ticket is distributed free. Kṛṣṇa coming—“take this ticket.” His devotees are coming—“take this ticket.” But we are—“no, we shall rot here,” that’s all. That is my determination. Revatīnandana: What do you think about this being born and dying again and again? This is the assumption in this whole discussion now. This is… Father Simon: Well, it isn’t necessarily a… I mean the basic assumption is that man is made for eternal life. And from that point of view, temporal life is prison. And one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” Which I think is quite good—that this is the… Revatīnandana: He says one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” And unending time always to be in the conception of time. Father Simon: Hm. Revatīnandana: That’s very nice. Father Simon: And I don’t… Christian don’t believe that we have one after another bodily existence here. But I think the practical point is the same, isn’t it? That our business here on earth is to learn how to be citizens of heaven. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And I think that, I mean just as we would say… Prabhupāda: What is the description of heaven? Is there any description? Father Simon: Well, all kinds of descriptions of heaven. They’re—they are just pictures. One is very like one that you have mentioned where you don’t need the sun or the moon because God is their light and “let us walk in the light of the Lord.” Prabhupāda: Then heaven means kingdom of God? Father Simon: Kingdom of God. Devotee: Hm. Revaténandana: Sometimes. Devotee: Yes. Father Simon: Yes. Revaténandana: Some, sometimes it is deceived (?) in that way. Prabhupāda: We have got our Vedic description. The standard of living—very, very high. Revaténandana: Sometimes it’s… Prabhupāda: Duration of life—very long. For 10,000 years of the… Everything is very nice or nicer, better than this place. But that is not spiritual. You can live for 10,000 years but in the spiritual world there is no such thing, you live eternally. Na nivartante ( BG 15.6), one does not come. So heavenly planet is also temporary because this universe will be annihilated, there will be dissolution of the whole universe. At that time this heavenly planets also will be dissolved. So that is not permanent. That is the conception of heavenly: *The standard of living may be very high but that is not permanent residence. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says: mad*-dhāma gatvā, punar janma na vidyate ( BG 8.16). So, as we are eternal, we must return to eternal world and that is perfection of life. Why should we remain in this temporary life and accept repetition of birth and death? *Dehāntaraṁ*-prāptir—they are accepting another body. So, this transmigration of the soul, accepting another body, is very risky. I do not know what kind of body I am going to take next. But if I prepare in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but Kṛṣṇa says that you can come back. So, if you follow Kṛṣṇa’s instruction in devotional service, then you are confident that you are going to Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home, back to God. Father Simon: I’m glad to hear you say that because I think a lot of Westerners have a very wrong idea of Eastern teaching on this and think that it means that you don’t have to bother because if you don’t get there in this life you have another life and another life and you will get there one day. Prabhupāda: So why do they think wrong? Father Simon: I was thinking… Prabhupāda: Is that right? They are right to even think… Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Eh? Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: A very dangerous doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: That you can forget about, you needn’t worry if you don’t get there this time, you’ll get there next time. Because since we, all the real spiritual teaching says you have got your chance now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And you must take it now (chuckles). Prabhupāda: That chance is always, the chance is always there. Father Simon: Yes, but as you say it, transmigration is a risky (chuckles), a risky business. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, risky business… Father Simon: There is no reason to suppose it’s going to be (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: Because if one does not know what kind of body he is going to get next life. Is it not risky? Father Simon: And if you keep putting off the time, then you will make it harder. Revaténandana: If you keep putting off spiritual life you are making it harder and harder to take to it. Prabhupāda: That is risky, that I am saying. Devotee: Process (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is risky. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead, that is not risky. But if you remain in darkness, you do not know… Karmīs, they do not know. They are working hard just like hogs and dogs without knowing any future of life. Their life is very risky. They do not know. How they’ll may transmigrate from this body to another body. Therefore, their life is risky. One who has understood this fact that there is life after death and if I try for it, I can go to the kingdom of God—so let me try for this—his life is not risky, his life is… One who is in darkness, he does not know what is happening next. He’s risky, his life is risky. Brother Roger: This is also clear, my lord, that this, the use of this body now is a privilege—surely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brother Roger: And that surely this (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: This is the only body… Brother Roger: …you transmigrate… Prabhupāda: Where you can, when you can prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. In the next life you get a body of a cat or dog, then for millions of years you have no knowledge. Then you have to again make progress… Evolve from dog to cat, or cat to dog, like that there is evolutionary process. So, it will take millions and millions of again to come to this human form of life. And again, coming in the human form of life, if you don’t prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead—then you are missing the chance. Nature gives you the chance. Now you have got this body, you take information how to go back to home, back to Godhead and prepare yourself and be happy. But if you don’t take advantage of it, we remain like cats and dogs—then you are missing. If you again become entangled with sinful activities, then you are missing the chance. Father Simon: It’s always that very simple invitation of God’s grace, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: That every man (indistinct). He is saying “come to me…” *Prabhupāda: God is reminding, He’s canvassing, He’s canvassing: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām etī ( BG 18.66)—you come to Me. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: You take shelter of Me, I will give you all protection. But we won’t take. Father Simon: As we have it in the Christian scriptures, the Lord waits to be gracious, to (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Yes, He’s already gracious. He’s coming Himself. He is sending His devotee, He’s sending His representative, He’s leaving the book—you study. He is giving the instruction, every way God is helping us. He is sitting within your heart, He’s giving you good counsel, but we are determined not to accept anything of God. So that life is very risky. Now in the Bhagavad*-gītā we understand: We have to change this body to another body. Now, that body—we can see there are so many billions and trillions of varieties of body. At least according to śāstra, 8,400,000. So, we may enter any of them—according to our work. We are preparing next body by our karma. We have been given the chance of human form of body to understand God, but if we do not do that, if we remain like cats and dogs, then the next life again become cats and dogs. After all, we have to accept another body. The soul is eternal. When this body is useless, no more fit for living, I have to give it up and take another body. That is given: Just like we put on some dress, garment. When it is not fit, we throw it away, we take another garment. So, this body is also like that. (indistinct) (End) Conversation with Father Simon and Brother Roger -- July 17, 1973, London Prabhupāda: Shall I address you as father? Father Simon: I’m Father Simon, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: This is Brother Roger. Prabhupāda: So father’s father. Father has got a father? Is it not? Father Simon: Yes (laughs). Prabhupāda: So let us go. I am father, I have got my father, my father has got father. In this way, who is the ultimate father? There must be one ultimate father. Because I have got my father, my father has got father. So you go on, it does not mean that on the tenth generation or twentieth generation I could not see the father. That does not mean there was no father. There must have—a father. Therefore, originally, there is the Supreme Father, and your Christian religion recognizes God as the Father. You pray “oh Father”. So, our experience is that I am also father, my father is also father but we are all persons. Therefore, the original Father, the beginning Father—He must be a person. What is your opinion? He cannot be impersonal. Do you agree or not? Father Simon: Ah, yes, we believe in… Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: God as person, yeh quite. Prabhupāda: So, father is controller. Father controls me, I am son. My father controls me, father controls the family. Therefore, in a small jurisdiction the father is the controller. Similarly, his father he is also controller, the Supreme Father is the Supreme Controller. That is Vedic version: *The Supreme Father is Kṛṣṇa. All controller. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—His form is not like us, His form is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss. So why I am being the son of the same Father by descendance—why my body is not like Him? My body is not eternal, I have to give up this body. My body is full of ignorance. There is no knowledge, I do not know what is going on within my body. Still, I claim it is my body. I eat but I do not know how the eatables turn into so many secretions, turn into blood, into urine, into so many things. They are divided, the big mechanical process is going on. But I do not know exactly. And when there is some disturbance in the metabolism of the function of the bodily machine, I go to the doctor because I do not know. So, therefore, I am full of ignorance—my body. *And sac*-cid-ānanda: sat means “eternal”; cit means “full of knowledge”; *and ānanda means “full of bliss.” So, this body is full of miseries. It is not blissful. Apart from all other miserable conditions, we have to meet death, which we do not want. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: You may be very proud of your advancement of knowledge. But the main problems of life—birth, death, old age, and disease—there is no remedy. You have not discovered any remedy for this miserable condition. Therefore, my body is temporary, it is full of ignorance, it is full of miseries. God’s body is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of pleasure. This is the distinction between God and myself. Otherwise, God is also a living being—supreme living being. I am also living being. That is stated in the *Vedas*: God is the supreme eternal, among the other eternals—other eternals who are the living entities. We are also eternal. You do not die after the destruction of the body: So, because we are now in the conditional stage of material life, we are undergoing this birth, death, old age, and disease. Otherwise, we are as good as Kṛṣṇa or God, we have got our spiritual body which is now covered. Now, our main business is how to become aloof from this conditional life. That is our main business in human life. We should not act in such a way that we become more conditioned. Just like a prisoner in the prison house—his business is how to finish that period of punishment and go out of the prison. Not to increase more entanglement so that he will continue prison life again, again, again. So that people do not understand—they are trying to be happy in the prison house, which is impossible. Prison house is never meant for happiness. It is meant for giving distress to the criminals so that he may come to his senses. But unfortunately, they are making association, combination to become happy in the prison house. That is their ignorance. In the prison house, in the material world, there is no possibility of happiness. Therefore, the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the main business of human beings—especially because in the animal life it is not possible. They cannot make any progress of spiritual life. But in the human life also, if we remain just like animals, then we are missing the opportunity. *So, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that people may not live like animals. Therefore, all our students, they follow strictly the prohibited principles: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. *Illicit sex is animal. Animal has no—in the animal society there is no marriage. Any man*-woman mixes and have sex life. That is animal—illicit sex. Similarly, human being eating meat—that is also animalism. The tigers, the jackals, the cats, dogs—they can eat meat. The human being—just like you have brought so many nice things. They have got—God has given so many nice things—why they should eat meat? And so far intoxication—in the material condition of life we are already intoxicated. Our brain is agitated—crazy. Because we are accepting this body: I am not this body, but I am accepting this body—this is madness. So, if he is indulging again further intoxication, then when will he come to his senses? Therefore, intoxication is also animalism. And gambling—that is also another lower class of engagement. Why should we gamble? We are destined to some extent suffering or enjoying according to my past karma. We cannot decrease it or increase it. That is not possible. So why should we indulge in gambling? Better that time be utilized for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—God consciousness. So, this is our program. We are pushing on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of the science of God. It is not a sentimental religious movement. Therefore, we welcome everyone. Everyone from the human society. And they are coming, they are understanding. Kṛṣṇa was not known—it was known, but not so elaborately—four or five years ago when this European and American, they are accepting this Kṛṣṇa cult. And I think there is very good chance of cooperating with the Christian religion, because Christian religion is also propagating God consciousness. Hm. *But we claim to be a little more accurate—we get the name of God, His activities, His characteristics—everything—stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So, if we cooperate, then the people of the world will be benefited. That is our submission. Hm. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think it is wonderful that so many young people are being inspired to seek the things of God. Brother Roger: Yeah. Father Simon: And being helped to love God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one Father in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that “these boys, they are our boys. From Christian or from Jewish group they have joined this movement. But before that, they are not interested about God. And how it is that they have become mad after God?” This is the statement of a Christian priest in Boston. Father Simon: I think the great need of this time is for real spiritual teaching, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: (indistinct) before. *Prabhupāda: And because Bhagavad*-gītā, we understand that is the science of God. God is explaining Himself—what He is. God cannot be known by our mental speculation; He is unlimited. But if He reveals Himself, we can know something about Him. That is the statement of *Bhāgavatam*: Our present senses are covered by these material ingredients, therefore it is not possible to speculate about God by these material senses. The senses are to be purified to come to the spiritual position. Then, when we apply our senses in the service of the master of the senses… *God is the master of the senses. His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka means “senses.” In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, God says—Kṛṣṇa says—“I have got my hands and legs everywhere.” So, my hand is God’s hand. We can easily understand—because a son’s body is created by the father. So, the hand of the son is also hand of the father. So therefore, our senses—our hands, legs, and everything—they are being God’s property. They should be engaged for God’s activities—not for any other reason. Just like my hand, I use it for my purpose, my hand is not used for your purpose. Similarly, if we realize that the proprietor of my senses is the Supreme Lord, therefore my senses should be engaged for the service of the Lord. *Actually, they are not mine—they are Kṛṣṇa’s, God’s. So that is the formula of bhakti*-yoga: We are thinking now “I am Indian, I am Englishman, I am German, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim.” They are thinking like that. These are all designations. So, one should be free from all designations: He should be purified in God consciousness. “I am servant of God,” or “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now I am thinking “I am servant of my family, I am servant of my community, I am servant of my nation, I am servant of my group…” So many things. “I am this, I am that.” These are all designations. *Therefore, the formula is sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ—one should be free from all designations. That is called brahma-jñāna—this real identity is “I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God.” When you come to this sense, then my senses are purified. With that purified sense, we can serve God. That is called bhakti-yoga: Hṛṣīka means “senses.” When the senses are purified, then in that purified sense we serve the Supreme—that is liberation: (aside:): Call that paṇḍita mahāśaya. (Pradyumna) *Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate—that is spiritual existence. So here, our students, they are no more identifying themselves either as Christian or Hindu or German or Englishman or Indian. They are thinking themselves as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So here is factual unity—factual unity, unity on the platform of spirit soul. And unity on the material platform is not possible. Material platform—there is no possibility of… so many times they have tried unity on the material platform. It has failed. That is not possible. Because on the material plane… (aside:): This door is open. Close it. So, on the spiritual platform there is possibility of imitating (?). Otherwise, there is no possibility of ending it. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think that we must hope and pray that the Lord will use all these stirring’s to his end. Glory to draw everyone close to Him and we won’t be sidetracked as you say into labels and designations. His (mumble) people so easily take on the externals same thing. Something some craze or fashion or whatever. And identify themselves with that and it becomes another limited thing, another prison. And then the very things that God gives us to enable us to grow out of the prison, to break out of the prison. We build them up into another little prison and they witness that all the religions I think is to this great freedom that God has and that God wants us to have. To get beyond these, to get beyond the merely externals… Prabhupāda: Boliye (Hindi) Father Simon: And beyond the (chuckles)… Prabhupāda: I puzzled; I do not follow. Revaténandana: Well, he says it’s, it’s very essential. He agrees it’s essential to get beyond these material designations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: And into the higher freedom that God has. That He wants us all to have, is that? Father Simon: Yes. Revaténandana: That’s a very brief summary (laughter). *Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the freedom because we are part and parcel of God. God is complete free—His freedom is not dependent on others—svarāṭ. Just like we get some knowledge from our teacher, so God is not dependent like that: svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (BG 3.22). He is self-sufficient, He is complete free. That is the distinction between God and us. And because we are part and parcel of God, we have got little freedom. When you misuse that little freedom that is our material condition. When we use that freedom properly, that is our spiritual condition. Father Simon: Our great conviction is that it is always God reaching out to us and that if we call Him—Lord. If we call Him the Lord then in surrendering our human, apparent human freedom to Him. He leads us beyond ourselves… Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: He is always confronting us with the, the new step that we can take towards Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that you give up any, everything else you just simply surrender to Me, and I give you all protection. Father Simon: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. (aside:) Find that verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Real religion is to surrender to God. That is real religion. And other’s religion which you have manufactured that maybe temporarily beneficial but that is not real religion. In Bhāgavata also, it is confirmed: *That type of religion is first class following which one becomes a surrendered devotee to the Supreme Lord. That is first class religion. And, ahaituky apratihatā, that surrender is without any motive. The surrender should be: God is great, I am His servant, so I fully surrender unto Him. Not that I’ll get some motivated profit. There is no such thing, because He will take care of me, He knows everything. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Just like a child is fully surrendered to the parents, the parent is taking care of what the child needs, how the child will be comfortable. So, therefore, our only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then He will take—there is no need of asking anything from Him. There is no need. He knows, He’s omnipotent, omniscient. He knows my needs and He promises: *Just like exactly the father takes care of the child. He knows how the child will be happy, what does he require. Now he requires food, now he requires rest. So, everything is there, he is surrendered simply to the lap of mother, to the care of father. And that kind of surrender is the religion. Completely. And that is, Kṛṣṇa says: sarva*-dharmān parityajya. We might have manufactured so many things as religion. Why difference of religion? Why the Hindus, the Christians, the Mohammedans—they think that my religion is different from the others. Religion cannot be different. Religion means God consciousness. If God is one, then religion must be one. And that one religion is surrender to God, that’s all. It doesn’t require any ritualistic ceremony. “God is great, my dear Lord, You are great, I am Your subservient. I forgot it. From this day I surrender unto You. You take charge of me.” That’s all. Even I haven’t got to say “You take charge.” He says “I will take charge.” There is no need of saying also. Simply I have to say: “From this day I am fully surrendered unto You. If You like, You give me protection; if You like, You can kill me; whatever You like, You can do it.” *Just like now, there is no slave. Formerly a slave, the master could do anything with him. Similarly, if we become a slave*-like, then He has—God has—the right to do whatever He likes with me. And that is surrender. And that is religion. That religion is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā: What is the translation? Pradyumna: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.” Prabhupāda: So, we suffer for our sinful activities, so we should surrender to God and stop our sinful activities. It is not that because I have surrendered to God so I can go on continue with my sinful activity, God will give me protection. No, that is not. You stop—no more sinful activities. Of course, anyone who has surrendered to God, he cannot indulge in sinful activities. Because he will abide by the orders of God, he cannot be sinful: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā If anyone is fully surrendered, then he has got all the good qualities of the demigods: Surāḥ means “the demigods in higher planetary systems.” Devatā. They have got very good qualities, so in the devotee all the good qualities manifest. That is the test. We cannot find any fault with a devotee because everything is good qualities. And on the contrary: One who is not a devotee, surrendered soul, he has no good quality. *By his mental speculation he will simply be materially attached. That is the distinction between devotee and non*-devotee. For devotee there is no more mental speculation. So, one decision: “I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.” That’s all. Go on. Then follow the words of Kṛṣṇa: (aside) Find that verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.” *Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Our process is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and hearing. This is manmanā—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And then worshipping the Deity in the temple. Manmanā bhava mad*-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī—worshipping Me. Hm. So, we have got daily class, daily worship, all the devotees they take part. They have got 24 hours engagement. So, mind cannot be diverted from Kṛṣṇa. That is manmanā. Somehow or other he is thinking of Kṛṣṇa—“Now I have to go to preach there, I have to make him member, or I’ll have to lecture there.” Or here also, “Now there is ārati, now there is bhoga, now there is class.” In this way they are engaged thinking of Kṛṣṇa 24 hours. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. You have seen our books? Father Simon: I’ve seen some of your, your books—yes. Prabhupāda: You can show our books. Father Simon: You have services at the same times of the day, every day, do you—when you all come together for worship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And prayer. Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got… Father Simon: Yes, impressed. Prabhupāda: From morning 4 o’clock to night 10 o’clock, we have got engagements. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: We are publishing all these books in all important languages. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: English, German, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese. And in India—Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati—as far as possible, we are publishing in all the languages. Father Simon: You have your own printing press? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are not printed in our press. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: They are printed in Japan. Father Simon: In Japan? Prabhupāda: We cannot print so nicely. (Laughter) Now we are going to print in Germany also; here is the dummy. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: We are also printing in England. We have done our first magazine in England recently. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are expanding. And we are selling our books also very nicely. Yes. In America we are selling on the average about $3,000 daily. Is it not? Revaténandana: I think so. Pradyumna: At least. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Los Angeles alone, we are collecting $1,000, and similarly, in New York. Pradyumna: In New York also. Prabhupāda: And taking all other places, not less than $3,000 daily. Father Simon: Lord Caitanya was the founder of your movement originally. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa was the founder 5,000 years ago. The founder—Kṛṣṇa is the founder and it is coming from time immemorial. Because God is origin, so you cannot find out in which date it begins. But from historical point of view, this movement was started by Kṛṣṇa 5,000 years ago when Kṛṣṇa was present. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, 4th chapter, that He instructed this philosophy formally to the sun god. Now if you take that, it becomes 40 millions or 400 millions of years ago. He spoke to the sun god. So, apart from that, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: Vivasvate—vivasvate means “the president of the sun planet”—Vivasvān. He is the present president of the sun planet. Or King. There must be one predominator in every planet. So, the name of the person who is predominating in the sun planet is Vivasvān. So, from the historical point of view, this philosophy was instructed to sun god over 400 millions of years ago. And apart from that, if we take the history of modern age, 5,000 years ago when the battle of Kurukṣetra took place, He instructed. So, from the last 5,000 years it is coming, but sometimes it is misinterpreted, the lineage is broken. Therefore, again somebody comes on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he makes adjustment. Similarly, 500 years ago, the same movement was rejuvenated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And we are also following these same footsteps, we are trying to preach this same cult in the Western countries. Now, since 1966, but the movement is very old. It is not that we have started a new movement. No. The same thing which was spoken 400 millions of years ago to the sun god. The same thing which was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna, and the same thing which was rejuvenated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we are presenting the same thing. And the proof is that either 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender unto Me.” That’s all. And we are preaching surrender to Kṛṣṇa, so where is the difference? We are speaking the same thing. Either it was spoken 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, there is no change in the movement. We do not say, “Now we have advanced so much, there is no need of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, you can go on with your own work.” (laughter) We don’t say that. We say the same thing, repetition of the same thing. Therefore, it is called disciplic succession—we don’t change. How it can be changed? God is eternal, we are also eternal, our relationship is eternal. Therefore, the service must be eternal, there is no question of change. Everything is eternal: *These are the statements of the Vedas, and the Bhagavad*-gītā also: In the Vedānta (1.1.2) also it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ. In Bhāgavata (1.1.1) also it is said: ah, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya janmādy asya yataḥ. The same thing is there in every Vedic literature: By studying *Vedas*, one has to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, so anyone who takes Kṛṣṇa as He speaks about Himself, then his knowledge is perfect. *Because what Kṛṣṇa says—that is perfect. Perfect means in any statement where there is no mistake, there is no illusion, there is no cheating. And there is no imperfectness of the senses—that is perfect statement. Our so*-called knowledge is gathered by the imperfect senses; our senses are not perfect. Unless we hear about the sun planet, if we see the sun planet by our eyes—direct perception—we see just like a disc. But when you take authoritative statement from geologist and others, then you understand that it is so many times bigger than this earth. Therefore, direct perception of the sun globe is not perfect. So, nowadays there are so many scientific theories, philosophical. They authorise, “I think; I think, in my opinion.” But he does not think that he is imperfect—what is the value of his opinion? He does not think so. What is the value of his thinking if he is imperfect? And that is a fact, our senses are not perfect. I am proud of possessing these eyes, but I cannot understand anything if I see a thing from distant place, neither I can see the nearest eyeball or the eyelid. So, there are conditions. There is no light—I cannot see. So, I see under conditions. So, what is the perfection? But they write books, “I think, I see.” But what you see, nonsense? What is the value of your eyes? That is the defect. But God has no such defects, therefore whatever He says is perfect. (aside:) Find out this verse, vedāhaṁ samatītāni. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.” Prabhupāda: So, we should take knowledge from the person who knows the past, present and future. I may not know it because I am imperfect, but He knows me. So, our business is to receive knowledge from the Supreme Perfect, then our knowledge is perfect. Father Simon: I see in one of these books you talk about the beauty of God. Prabhupāda: Hm? Father Simon: Is this a theme that is important in your spirituality—that God reveals Himself as immensely beautiful and attractive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: So that when you begin to see Him… *Prabhupāda: Yes. God means He must be all*-attractive. Father Simon: Yes. *Prabhupāda: All*-attractive. His beauty must be. There are attractive features we can experience in this material world. If a man is very rich, he is attractive. If a man is very learned scholar, he is attractive. If a man is very strong, he is attractive. If a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. So, these are the attractive features. There are six kinds of attractive features—wealth, beauty, strength, influence, knowledge, renunciation; like that. So, God is endowed with all these attractive features—in full. That is the statement of the Vedas: Bhagavān—God’s, the etymological expression of God is Bhagavān. Bhaga means “opulences.” Nobody can be richer than Him, nobody can be wiser than Him, otherwise how God is great? Great in every respect—either in riches or in beauty or in knowledge or in reputation or in strength or in renunciation—everything. He must be the great. Nobody can be richer than God. In India, there is a rascal—he makes like this little gold. Some yogic mystic power, now he has become God. Revatīnandana: Makes what? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotees: Gold. Prabhupāda: Yes, he will show some magic, take a little gold. It will not stay, but by this he has become God. Devotee: He claims to have become God. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He claims to become God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He claims, but there are fools, and they accept also. So I say that if gold making is the qualification of God, then why shall I take this man as God? I shall take that man who has created gold mines. If that is the qualification of God. So, God has created this material world, and each and every planet there are millions and millions of goldmines. All over the universe. So why shall I take this cheat*-man—as God? Why not the big man who has created the goldmines, if that is the qualification of becoming God. Come to logic, eh? So, these things are going on, especially in India, they made so many (laughter)… There are so many rascals, they are claiming, and now here one rascal has come—another. Revaténandana: Yeah, he says this… His followers say, "When I take the secret session, they touch my eyes and I, I see some light. Nobody else can see," right. But they say, "I can see some light, therefore He is God." Prabhupāda: Who knows that you see? Revaténandana: What about this light? Prabhupāda: Then you say that you have seen, but nobody says… Revaténandana: Nobody else can see. You know (laughs). Prabhupāda: Then what nonsense God you are? Revaténandana: Yeah. But what a little, what a very little bit of light, you see. Everybody can see the sun (laughs). Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: There is so much light. Prabhupāda: But there are rascals, they follow like that. What can be done? God is so cheap that because he has seen some light, he has become God. Just see. What light he sees, nobody knows, and he says, “Nobody can see.” Then where is the confirmation? Who can say you’re actually seeing or not? So, this bluffing is going on. But when the real God is there, they are not accepting. Who is accepted by stalwart scholars, leading personality, ācāryas—that is not accepted. Somebody says, “I have seen some light, I am God”; *therefore, he is accepted. Cheap*-god. God says here that the whole universal material creation is resting in one fourth energy: (aside) Find out this verse. Pradyumna: Athavā bahunaitena? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: “But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself, I pervade and support this entire universe.” Revaténandana: That’s at the end of the tenth chapter. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is tenth chapter. Revaténandana: Tenth chapter, at the end of it, yeah. Father Simon: Detailed knowledge. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Father Simon: I think leads people closer to God, doesn’t it? Saint Teresa, one of the great Christian Saints, waged a lifelong campaign against people who knew a little and thought they knew everything. And she had a great belief in real learning because her experience of really learned priests was that even though they perhaps haven’t experienced much themselves, because they were really learning, they had a large understanding of what God could do and so were open to recognize His acts. But the semi*-lettered people—she called them “the half-educated people”—who have got a little bit of knowledge and then think, “This is it, I know everything.” They are the people who push everybody along a narrow little road and saying, “This is the way.” (chuckles) Prabhupāda: This is that. Anyone who is claiming that he has knowledge, he must receive the knowledge from the perfect. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, his knowledge is not perfect. Father Simon: Well, real knowledge is always very humble in some ways. Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Real knowledge is received from the perfect. Our process is that we accept knowledge in the descending process—not by the ascending process. There are two kinds of ways. By speculation, just like they are trying to know the sun, the moon—they are trying to go there. This is ascending process. Ascending process. But there is another process—descending process. The knowledge comes from the moon, from the sun, from other planets. But that is perfect knowledge, because that knowledge is coming from a person who actually resides—that is perfect knowledge. And because my speculative power is limited, therefore, I cannot understand anything by this speculative knowledge. Revaténandana: Even scriptures. If I study a scripture in the same way, I’ll try to understand it by my potency… Father Simon: Yeah. Revaténandana: I can make mistakes; I will make mistakes. Father Simon: Yes, scripture speaks with its own authority. And it is indirect… (indistinct) Revaténandana: If I don’t—I don’t hear, I don’t understand such good authority. Father Simon: I’ve suffered a lot from scripture scholars (chuckles) who are too clever to believe. And not clever (mumble)… *Prabhupāda: No. When there is no speculative knowledge, there is no question of belief. It is fact. There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: Now there is kingdom of God—every scripture, every religion accepts. Now if you want to find out where is that kingdom of God… So: The modern scientist says that to go to the highest planetary system it will take 40,000 of years. Now if you want to go to the spiritual kingdom which is far beyond this material world, so how you will go there? Because you cannot finish this material world even by 40,000 of years. You’re not going to live even 40 hundreds of years—or 40 years nowadays (chuckles). So, I will finish this material span—40,000 years—then we have to… So far, we have got information: the universe is covered by layers of five elements—earth, air, water, stock (?). So each layer is ten times more than the other layer. So, you have to penetrate through that, then you come to the spiritual sky. Then there is spiritual planets, and the highest planet is called Goloka Vṛndāvana, where Kṛṣṇa lives. *So therefore, if we want to go there by our own endeavour, then the Brahma*-saṁhitā says: If you travel millions of years to go to that planet with the speed of mind and air, still it will be unknown to you. This is ascending process. But when Kṛṣṇa comes, He gives the information: (aside) Find out. Tad dhāma paramaṁ. It is the information. Pradyumna: “That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.” *Prabhupāda: So, there is a place where there is no need of illumination by sunlight or moonlight—it is self*-illuminated. Just like we, the sun planet here, we have got one instance. The sun does not require any illumination, the planet itself is light. Similarly, the spiritual sky all the planets there—Vaikuṇṭha-loka—they are self-illuminating, there is no darkness. Therefore, this material world is called tamaḥ. Tamaḥ means “darkness.” Tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.3.28). The Vedic instruction is don’t remain in this dark world—it is by nature dark, therefore it requires this electricity. The sun, the moon… but there is another world which is self-illuminating—there is no need of… That is there stated, *So, we have to take knowledge in that way. There is spiritual world, here is the description. There are other descriptions also in Bhāgavatam. The spiritual world. There is also aeroplane, everything is there—but they are all spiritual. Here everything is material. Giving the best service to the human society—that, yat gatvā na nivartante—just try to go to that place wherefrom you haven’t got to return again. You live there eternally with full knowledge and bliss, and this is our business. And we are not manufacture this ideas—they are all stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. We are simply distributing that knowledge. Revatīnandana: Everybody else is trying to enjoy the prison house. Prabhupāda: Hah! Revatīnandana: And we are leaving (laughs). *Prabhupāda: We are kicking your… (Laughter) Kicking this nonsense, what is this? Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It is duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says: ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ—even if you go to the highest planet. You may get a duration of life—millions of years. But that does not mean you become eternal, that is not possible: ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna. If you are actually serious of having eternal life, blissful and full of knowledge—then you must go back to home, back to Godhead. That is possible: mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25)—my devotees go, come there, here. What is that? Pradyumna: “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.” *Prabhupāda: That’s it. So why not try for this? There is another verse: yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ, bhūtējyā yānti bhūtāni mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām Pradyumna: “Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.” *Prabhupāda: That’s all. So why should I go, waste my time to go to the ghosts and ancestor and demigod—why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Because I have to work for that, so why not work for the best? This is our function. It is clearly stated that you, if you prepare for going to the higher… Not in this way that I have got a sputnik, I shall go. No. That is not possible. You have to prepare yourself to go to the moon planet, to the sun planet, to the Venus. There are innumerable—you can go there, to the Brahma*-loka planet, yānti deva-vratā devān. So, you have to prepare in this life. Similarly, if you want to go to the pitṛ-loka and other places—you have to prepare. And if you prepare yourself to come to My place—you can come. So, what will be my duty—so why not work for going back to Kṛṣṇa’s place? That is intelligence. I have to work for going somewhere—if somebody says you can take ticket either for moon planet or sun planet or Vaikuṇṭha planet. Then what ticket I shall take? Give me the Vaikuṇṭha ticket (laughter). Why shall I take the sun planet or moon planet? This is intelligence—why shall I waste my time again? Give me that ticket. So, this is intelligence. Devotee: And you take the ticket by surrendering. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Ticket is distributed free. Kṛṣṇa coming—“take this ticket.” His devotees are coming—“take this ticket.” But we are—“no, we shall rot here,” that’s all. That is my determination. Revatīnandana: What do you think about this being born and dying again and again? This is the assumption in this whole discussion now. This is… Father Simon: Well, it isn’t necessarily a… I mean the basic assumption is that man is made for eternal life. And from that point of view, temporal life is prison. And one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” Which I think is quite good—that this is the… Revatīnandana: He says one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” And unending time always to be in the conception of time. Father Simon: Hm. Revatīnandana: That’s very nice. Father Simon: And I don’t… Christian don’t believe that we have one after another bodily existence here. But I think the practical point is the same, isn’t it? That our business here on earth is to learn how to be citizens of heaven. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And I think that, I mean just as we would say… Prabhupāda: What is the description of heaven? Is there any description? Father Simon: Well, all kinds of descriptions of heaven. They’re—they are just pictures. One is very like one that you have mentioned where you don’t need the sun or the moon because God is their light and “let us walk in the light of the Lord.” Prabhupāda: Then heaven means kingdom of God? Father Simon: Kingdom of God. Devotee: Hm. Revaténandana: Sometimes. Devotee: Yes. Father Simon: Yes. Revaténandana: Some, sometimes it is deceived (?) in that way. Prabhupāda: We have got our Vedic description. The standard of living—very, very high. Revaténandana: Sometimes it’s… Prabhupāda: Duration of life—very long. For 10,000 years of the… Everything is very nice or nicer, better than this place. But that is not spiritual. You can live for 10,000 years but in the spiritual world there is no such thing, you live eternally. Na nivartante ( BG 15.6), one does not come. So heavenly planet is also temporary because this universe will be annihilated, there will be dissolution of the whole universe. At that time this heavenly planets also will be dissolved. So that is not permanent. That is the conception of heavenly: *The standard of living may be very high but that is not permanent residence. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says: mad*-dhāma gatvā, punar janma na vidyate ( BG 8.16). So, as we are eternal, we must return to eternal world and that is perfection of life. Why should we remain in this temporary life and accept repetition of birth and death? *Dehāntaraṁ*-prāptir—they are accepting another body. So, this transmigration of the soul, accepting another body, is very risky. I do not know what kind of body I am going to take next. But if I prepare in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but Kṛṣṇa says that you can come back. So, if you follow Kṛṣṇa’s instruction in devotional service, then you are confident that you are going to Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home, back to God. Father Simon: I’m glad to hear you say that because I think a lot of Westerners have a very wrong idea of Eastern teaching on this and think that it means that you don’t have to bother because if you don’t get there in this life you have another life and another life and you will get there one day. Prabhupāda: So why do they think wrong? Father Simon: I was thinking… Prabhupāda: Is that right? They are right to even think… Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Eh? Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: A very dangerous doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: That you can forget about, you needn’t worry if you don’t get there this time, you’ll get there next time. Because since we, all the real spiritual teaching says you have got your chance now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And you must take it now (chuckles). Prabhupāda: That chance is always, the chance is always there. Father Simon: Yes, but as you say it, transmigration is a risky (chuckles), a risky business. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, risky business… Father Simon: There is no reason to suppose it’s going to be (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: Because if one does not know what kind of body he is going to get next life. Is it not risky? Father Simon: And if you keep putting off the time, then you will make it harder. Revaténandana: If you keep putting off spiritual life you are making it harder and harder to take to it. Prabhupāda: That is risky, that I am saying. Devotee: Process (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is risky. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead, that is not risky. But if you remain in darkness, you do not know… Karmīs, they do not know. They are working hard just like hogs and dogs without knowing any future of life. Their life is very risky. They do not know. How they’ll may transmigrate from this body to another body. Therefore, their life is risky. One who has understood this fact that there is life after death and if I try for it, I can go to the kingdom of God—so let me try for this—his life is not risky, his life is… One who is in darkness, he does not know what is happening next. He’s risky, his life is risky. Brother Roger: This is also clear, my lord, that this, the use of this body now is a privilege—surely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brother Roger: And that surely this (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: This is the only body… Brother Roger: …you transmigrate… Prabhupāda: Where you can, when you can prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. In the next life you get a body of a cat or dog, then for millions of years you have no knowledge. Then you have to again make progress… Evolve from dog to cat, or cat to dog, like that there is evolutionary process. So, it will take millions and millions of again to come to this human form of life. And again, coming in the human form of life, if you don’t prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead—then you are missing the chance. Nature gives you the chance. Now you have got this body, you take information how to go back to home, back to Godhead and prepare yourself and be happy. But if you don’t take advantage of it, we remain like cats and dogs—then you are missing. If you again become entangled with sinful activities, then you are missing the chance. Father Simon: It’s always that very simple invitation of God’s grace, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: That every man (indistinct). He is saying “come to me…” *Prabhupāda: God is reminding, He’s canvassing, He’s canvassing: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām etī ( BG 18.66)—you come to Me. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: You take shelter of Me, I will give you all protection. But we won’t take. Father Simon: As we have it in the Christian scriptures, the Lord waits to be gracious, to (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Yes, He’s already gracious. He’s coming Himself. He is sending His devotee, He’s sending His representative, He’s leaving the book—you study. He is giving the instruction, every way God is helping us. He is sitting within your heart, He’s giving you good counsel, but we are determined not to accept anything of God. So that life is very risky. Now in the Bhagavad*-gītā we understand: We have to change this body to another body. Now, that body—we can see there are so many billions and trillions of varieties of body. At least according to śāstra, 8,400,000. So, we may enter any of them—according to our work. We are preparing next body by our karma. We have been given the chance of human form of body to understand God, but if we do not do that, if we remain like cats and dogs, then the next life again become cats and dogs. After all, we have to accept another body. The soul is eternal. When this body is useless, no more fit for living, I have to give it up and take another body. That is given: Just like we put on some dress, garment. When it is not fit, we throw it away, we take another garment. So, this body is also like that. (indistinct) (End) Room Conversation with Malcolm -- July 18, 1973, London Malcolm: ...as with the origin of all things. Prabhupāda: So what is that origin of all things? Malcolm: You ask me something for which I have no words. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our searching is... Not searching. We take the origin of everything, Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad*-gītā... Call Paṇḍitjī. Find out the verse, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. Just like in this orange there is water, (Prabhupāda is eating an orange) very nice, tasteful. How it generated? (pause, Pradyumna comes in, offers obeisances) Pradyumna: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Prabhupāda: This, origin. So as a scientist, what is your opinion upon this? Malcolm: It is not for me to speak. Prabhupāda: Eh? Malcolm: It is not for me to speak. Prabhupāda: You don't speak? Śyāmasundara: He's a little humble. He... *Prabhupāda: So you can take it from us, from the Bhagavad*-gītā, that God is the origin of everything. Earth, water, air... (Child crying.) (Aside:) Come on. He can eat? Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Give him one. Take one. Śyāmasundara: Orange. Prabhupāda: Come on. Come on. Yes, yes, yes. Come on. Thank you. Śyāmasundara: He's the youngest one I've ever seen. Prabhupāda: How old he is? One year? Malcolm: One year. Prabhupāda: That's nice. He has got teeth? Mother: A few. Prabhupāda: Few. God is the source of everything. The vast water has come from the body of God. Just like from your body a little quantity of water comes out, perspiring. Does it not? So we are limited. So one ounce, two ounce, we can produce. But God is unlimited. He can produce by perspiration millions of oceans. This is our understanding. God is unlimited; we are limited. We are also producing so many things through our body. Similarly, God is unlimited. His body has got unlimited potency. So everything comes from the body of God. This is our simple understanding. God is the origin of everything. Paramahaṁsa: No, Prabhupāda. They're very bitter still. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: They're somewhat bitter. Śyāmasundara: Ours are still green. Not yet ripened. In September they'll be ready. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Paramahaṁsa: If you want, I can clean it and cut it. Prabhupāda: No. Just I am asking. Take. Come on. (pause) Another gentleman was to come here? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, there's one man coming later. Prabhupāda: When? Mukunda: He's expected in about five minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Oh, at seven. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to ask you that in your lectures you continually speak of the ten saṁskāras that children should have. Prabhupāda: Well, that is not possible. Paramahaṁsa: Oh. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. It is very difficult. One saṁskāra, that initiation saṁskāra, and marriage saṁskāra*-two, three saṁskāras, can be done, not the ten. It is not possible. Now the circumstances will not allow. It is very difficult. Śyāmasundara: One thing that Malcolm and I were talking about before was that, he was lamenting that our educational system nowadays in the west, material education, practically spoils the child to understand spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Why in the West? Everywhere. Malcolm: More in the West because the child is more constrained in his molding. Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole defect is that we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we do not know how to conduct business with the goal of life. At the present moment, in every field, they are missing the goal of life. Malcolm: They seem oppressed by weight of number, that there are too many. Prabhupāda: No, goal is one. Malcolm: No, people. Prabhupāda: No, people do not know the goal. That is the defect of modern civilization. Not modern, that is the defect of material existence. Malcolm: But a number of people over a certain size make a goal by the number of people. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Pradyumna: When a number of people think in a certain way? Malcolm: No. The number of people make the goal not of them, but of the number. Paramahaṁsa: Mass. Mass opinion usually forms society. Malcolm: Not... No, not mass opinion. Not the, not the involvement of the people, but the number of the people. Prabhupāda: The millions and trillions number... Śyāmasundara: By unanimous opinion, by unanimous pursuit of some goal, that becomes the common goal. Paramahaṁsa: Fashion. Fashion? Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say... Malcolm: No, no. Number... I know, I... That when a number of people become beyond a certain size, that in order for that size to maintain, there becomes a code of written law whose existence is to preserve the number, and it becomes the goal of the people, and it is the goal of number and not of the people. And the people I see... Prabhupāda: The people are numberless. Therefore the goal should be numberless? People are numberless. We cannot count. It is not possible. Therefore the goal should be also numberless? Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us that actually the amount of people in the world has nothing to do with the form of education. Simply the... For example, if everyone in the world was Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where would there be a question of overpopulation? Because there would be harmony throughout society because the center of the society would be Kṛṣṇa. But unfortunately, due to the overpopulation, we have so many different goals, different interests, and therefore there's continual clash. So there's nothing against overpopulation as long as people are raised in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Malcolm: Is overpopulation, then, a more important problem? Paramahaṁsa: Well, for example, even in animal society, there is more animals, there's more insects, there's more birds than human society. But there's no question... They have no starvation. They have no nuclear warfare. Because they live as they're, as Kṛṣṇa has meant them to be, as their karma dictates. But in our situation we are meant to understand Kṛṣṇa. This, the goal of human life, is to use our developed consciousness to serve God. But unfortunately, since we misuse this for selfish motives, therefore we have descended lower than animals. Therefore we have not even the simple harmony that animal life has. Therefore we have mass warfare. Therefore we have greed, economic distress and pollution. All these things are caused simply because we have not used our human life for understanding Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: I think what you are saying, in a sense, is that generally the people are innocent. They grow up... And the goals of life are forced upon them, sort of, and actually that is not, the real goal is still missing. Malcolm: They would say, yes, that there is... The number is too many. Śyāmasundara: The number of goals? Malcolm: No, the number of people to support a system of return. Śyāmasundara: Return to the real goal. Malcolm: To the real goal. They feel oppressed into supporting the number system because it's... Śyāmasundara: Due to a larger number of people, is it possible to return all these people to the real goal? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As there is medicine for certain disease, if, in that particular disease, the prescribed medicine is given, then the disease will be cured. Is it not? Medical science, they have discovered medicine for a certain type of disease. So if the diseased man takes that medicine, particular, then he'll be cured. Similarly, if people take what is the actual goal of life by philosophy and logic, then their goal of life will be one. He must agree to take it just like the diseased man must agree to take the medicine. Then he's cured. Malcolm: If a man reaches his maturity of years and leaves a western school, and he has the words which say "Know thyself," may he reject his family ties? Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of rejecting or accepting to understand the goal of life. The goal of life is meant for everyone. Maybe a family man or without family. It doesn't matter. Just like eating. Eating is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's a family man or not family man. It is his essential. Similarly, the goal of life is also essential to know for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's family man or not family man. It doesn't matter. Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking? Prabhupāda: Eh? Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking? Prabhupāda: Yes. Some are seeking, but the medicine is there. Śyāmasundara: Is looking for the medicine part of the medicine? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no necessity of looking for it. The medicine's already there, goal of life. So we have to take information from authorities, what is the goal of life. Just like this child. The child, he knows that "My father is goal of life," or "My mother is goal of life." He may walk all over the room, but he knows that "Ultimately, my father is goal." Similarly our goal of life is the Supreme Father. Now, if this child is taken away from this room, he'll cry. He'll not be able to express that he wants the goal of his life, his father and mother. He'll simply cry, missing. Similarly, our goal of life is the Supreme Father. But because we are missing, we are crying here, throughout the universe, throughout the creation. We are simply crying. This is called struggle for existence. But the real goal of life is...(Aside) There is fire. Don't allow him to go there. There is fire. (Noise of child in background) Now, he doesn't remain there; *he comes to the mother, the goal of life. Similarly, we have got our goal of life, a supreme father. We are missing that. Simply one has to know that "This is our goal of life. We were searching in vain for so many other goals of life." Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. The goal of life is the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They have missed the goal of life on account of their propensity to become happy within this material world. And that is the missing point. He cannot be happy without reaching... The same example. This child cannot be happy without being in the association of the father. If this child is taken away and he's given nice food, he'll cry. He'll cry because the goal of life is missing. Similarly, we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we are not satisfied in any way in this material world. There(fore) Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. This struggle for existence is going on because they do not know that the goal of life is God, Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. Malcolm: If the child is taken from the parents, he will cry, but he will stop. Prabhupāda: Hm? Malcolm: But he will stop when time is past. Prabhupāda: Again cry. Again cry. Malcolm: When a time in years pass, he will forget, and ... Prabhupāda: Yes. That forgetfulness is forced. He's, he's not happy. *Malcolm: If he would then, when he is a grown person, recapture or re*-feel the link to his reason for being, he must go back in his experience or thought to the point at which he cried to feel again the feeling of being lost. Now, the Western youth seem to have been forced to accept their position, and the position that they have accepted gives them no freedom to go back and find the point at which they felt the experience of the thing they had lost. So in their minds they would say, "There is something missing. There is no God. But there is a God. Yet I must find him with my mind." And then they know through the search that it is only going back through their own years of experience to the point at which they had lost that they will find it. But for the Westerner it clashes with his total Western heritage, the thing imposed him upon by his senses which is that he may not isolate himself from his community in order to go back. And the young people cannot move because this point holds them. Prabhupāda: No. The young people, they are moving. They are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no check. Because they are western boys, there is no check. Just like they're all Europeans, Americans. So how they are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It doesn't matter whether Western, Eastern. Natural propensity is the same, either in the East or in the West. So it doesn't matter. That is not impediment. Anywhere, the science is... Just like your physical science. It is as good as in the West as in the East. For the East, there cannot be a different physical science. The same science can be taught in the East and the West. Malcolm: And the same... Prabhupāda: Any science does not depend on East and West understanding. Science is science. Malcolm: No. I'm talking not of science, but of education which... *Prabhupāda: No, education is different. Education may be wrong or right, but science is always the fact. "Two plus two equal to four,"*-that is equally good in the East and West, not that in the western countries, two plus two will be five. So similarly, any scientific knowledge, it does not depend on East and West understanding. It is good for everywhere. Similarly, to understand the science of God, it does not depend on the Western culture or Eastern culture. One must be serious to understand. Then it is equally available. Ahaituky apratihatā. These material impediments cannot check progress in the science of God, cannot. Apratihatā, without any checking. That we are experiencing, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not checked anywhere. We have got branches all over the world. Any country, there is no language difficulty. Wherever we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no checking. Even Africa, they are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even the child will chant. They clap. You have seen that a small child is...? I think he..., about six months old. So there is no checking. For spiritual understanding there is no checking. The child, six months' old child, clapping, that means he's joining with the system. He's not sophisticated. He's new child, but automatically... So there is no checking. (pause) Śyāmasundara: If the science is available to everyone without impediment, then there must be the proper teacher, isn't it? There must be a teacher of the science... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ...where people learn. That has been a difficulty here. There's been no real teachers until... Prabhupāda: No, everyone gives his own opinion. Everyone will say... He'll not dare to say that he's speaking right, scientifically. He'll say, "It is my opinion." To avoid any difficulty, he'll say, "In my opinion it is this." I think he's speaking of that, (that) there are so many people, and they have got so many opinions. Śyāmasundara: How do we know, then, what is the real fact? *Prabhupāda: We have to understand it from a real man who knows it. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ. Find out that. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. So we have to approach the real person who has seen. Then you'll get the right goal of life. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: So we have to approach a person who has seen the truth. It is not difficult. Just like if you are suffering from some disease, you have to go to a doctor who knows how to treat. It is same thing, like that. Śyāmasundara: How do we know he's a good doctor or not? By his credential or...? *Prabhupāda: No. That also... Therefore it is called sādhu-śāstra*-guru-vākya. Three things there are for knowledge. Sādhu, saintly person; śāstra, scripture; *and guru. So one statement we have to corroborate with other statement. If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether śāstra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master, whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person. Sādhu. Similarly sādhu also, whether guru says, "Yes, he is sādhu." Whether śāstra says, "Yes, he is sādhu." There are three things, sādhu-śāstra*-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you'll get the right way. Just like who is a guru? That is stated in the śāstras. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Śāstra says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "One must approach a guru." Then the same question comes, "Who is guru?" That is also stated, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. "He's well-versed in Vedas, knowledge of Vedas, and fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." He is guru. Just like how do you know that here is a medical practitioner? Before going for treatment, you find out. How do you find out? Śyāmasundara: Some friend, perhaps. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have to take information. Similarly, guru, according to śāstra, who is guru, he must be confirmed by sādhu, saintly person, by śāstra. Then he's guru. Sadhu-śāstra, guru*-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya. Haṁsadūta: What's the difference between a sādhu and a guru? Sadhu means authorities like Vyāsa? Prabhupāda: Guru... He must be a sādhu. Haṁsadūta: It means the previous ācāryas. *Prabhupāda: A sādhu means titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ suhṛdaḥ sarva*-dehinām, ajāta-śatravaḥ śāntāḥ sādhavaḥ sādhu-bhūṣaṇāḥ [SB 3.25.21]. Everything, there is definition, who is sādhu, who is guru. Haṁsadūta: Yes. *Prabhupāda: ...what is śāstra. Everything is there. You have to know it. What is avatāra. That is my business, how to know. But there is, everything's there. What... Everyone can know it. Sādhavaḥ, sādhu. Sum and substance of sādhu means devotee. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. "He's sādhu." Who? Ananya-bhāk: "Without any diversion of attention, he's completely engaged in My devotional service... Even if he has got some minor defects, still, because he is completely surrendered and engaged in My service, he's sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. So this is the test of sādhu. Sādhu means he must be a devotee. Sādhu does not mean having saffron color and long beard and doing all nonsense. No. Sādhu means... First test is that he is unflinching, without any deviation. Api cet sudurā..., bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Ananya-bhāk means he does not know anything except the service of the Lord. That is the qualification of sādhu. So similarly, in other places also, the definition of sādhu is there. Sādhu means titikṣavaḥ: he's very tolerant because a sādhu has to face so many opposing elements and sometimes very offensive, but he has to tolerate. Titikṣavaḥ. At the same time, kāruṇikāḥ, very merciful. The same man who is torturing him, torturing him, he is trying to convince him about Kṛṣṇa. That means very merciful. He's not rejecting. Although he's torturing him, but he's trying to convince him, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore kāruṇikāḥ. And he is not friend of any particular society or man. Suhṛdaḥ sarva-dehinām. He is well-wisher of all living entities. It doesn't matter whether he's Indian, American, or black and white. No, no conception. Or even human being or animal. He is kind to everyone, friend, well-wisher of everyone. Ajāta-śatravaḥ. He does not create any enemies. Such... These are the qualifications of sādhu. Śāstra means the transcendental literature, not ordinary writings. That is śāstra. Just like Bhagavad-gītā is śāstra, Veda is śāstra, or Bible, śāstra. Scripture means given by God or His authorized representative. That is śāstra. So sādhu-śāstra-guru. And guru means who is completely devotee of Kṛṣṇa without any material motives. This is sādhu-śāstra-guru. Anyābhilāṣitāśūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. (baby crying in background) *Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that, you were lecturing that, that unless one performs the proper saṁskāras for the children, they will become degraded. They will not follow the regulative principles and such... They become unwanted population? Prabhupāda: Yes. In material world we have got so many obligations. Paramahaṁsa: For example, in devotee families, if we perform the proper principles in raising children... Prabhupāda: No, your, your, your function is very simple. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and train your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all. Paramahaṁsa: But there's always a chance that they may not as well. Prabhupāda: That chance is also to you also. Māyā is always there. But our duty should be like that. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and raise your children to that standard. (indistinct) Just like we are teaching in Dallas. There is nothing extraordinary. The children are there, they're learning how to read, how to write, at the same time rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārātrika, joining in the saṅkīrtana, playing mṛdaṅga, dancing, taking prasādam. (Aside:) That's all right. By such training, automatically they'll be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then all your duties are complete. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then all your duty is finished. Malcolm: Can you make a child Kṛṣṇa conscious without believing yourself? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Can you make a child Kṛṣṇa conscious if you yourself don't believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: If you do not believe, if the father does not believe? You mean to say? Malcolm: If the father does not feel. Prabhupāda: Yes well, everything is individual. Father is individual and child is individual. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. Malcolm: Can a father impose on a child, something which he does not believe himself. Prabhupāda: No Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental position. Once one gets a little touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he'll make progress. Just like the wick in a firework. Firework, a big, what is called? (sic:) Pottatter? Haṁsadūta: Firecracker. Prabhupāda: Crack. The long wick, you just set fire: (makes sound:) tille, tille, tille, tille, tille, and when it comes: tung! (laughter) It is like that. You just set up the fire and then one day he'll become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. Śyāmasundara: So the knowledge is absolute, it works with anyone. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even if he does not complete, whatever he has done, that is complete. Because it is spiritual, it is not material. In material world suppose if you want to do something, you have to make the background. And while doing the background if you could not make further progress, everything is finished. But spiritual work is not like that. From the very beginning, whatever you are doing, that is asset. Nothing is lost. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Even a little done in spiritual consciousness, that can save you from the greatest danger. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you are going? Indian guest: It'll take me about two hours to reach there. Prabhupāda: I see, I see. Śyāmasundara: Do you have any questions? Malcolm: No, I may have questions to ask, but they're not very good questions. Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: So the man has come? Devotee: No, prasādam is ready. Śyāmasundara: They're bringing prasādam? Oh, that's nice. *Prabhupāda: So how such big men, minister, could accept such position of a mendicant and live...? Now, gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau... So they got a better thing. They dipped into the ocean of the gopīs' ecstasy. They were always thinking of the gopīs' activities with Kṛṣṇa. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur, vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. So unless one gets a better thing, he cannot give up the less important thing. So when, unless one gets that better thing-better humor, better mellow*-they cannot give up these material engagements. Therefore, to get that better thing, it is advised that part of your hard labor you offer to Kṛṣṇa. This is called karma-yoga. You remain in your karma, but nirbandha, nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe, be touched with Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and spend at least fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. Then, gradually, you come to the... Just like the Gosvāmīs came. So this is the policy. Otherwise, for Kṛṣṇa conscious men there is no need. Everything Kṛṣṇa will supply. Mādhavendra Purī installed a Deity. Now, for months, years together, only festival was going on. (pause) And another good example is that if somebody is in business and if he spends for Kṛṣṇa, that is a very good example for the karmīs. Because everyone is not going to stop their karmī mentality. So this will be an example, that "You are engaged in material. Now spend like this." That is another preaching. Loka-saṅgraha. This is called loka-saṅgraha, to collect ordinary men for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Janaka-rāja, he was a king, but great saintly person. Paramahaṁsa: Lord Rāmacandra's father? *Prabhupāda: No, father*-in-law. *Paramahaṁsa: Father*-in-law. *Prabhupāda: The great mahājanas, out of the twelve, Janaka*-rāja is one. Śyāmasundara: His argument in the newspaper by other people complaining against Zaner's argument. Not members of our movement, but other people, Englishmen. "Zaner is a fool," this and that. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, they have called. He is a fool. Śyāmasundara: We'll bring them up. They're in the Times, letters to the editor. Prabhupāda: And we have directly called him fool, rascal. *Śyāmasundara: Other people are also criticizing. They find other things in his argument that are not... They say he has to realize Bhagavad*-gītā before he can criticize anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not realize. He does not know anything. You can read this letter. It is very interesting. Śyāmasundara: To Zaner this one? Or to... Prabhupāda: General, general. Reply. Mukunda: We've also invited him to come here. Śyāmasundara: No one defended him in the newspaper, Observer. Prabhupāda: So other protests have been published in the paper? Śyāmasundara: Yes. I'll bring them up to you. (end) Room Conversation -- July 19, 1973, London *Prabhupāda: Tad*-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. Paśyanti, this word is there. Yoginaḥ paśyanti they see. Dhyānāvasthita, by meditation. *Revatīnandana: This is the Sixth Chapter Bhagavad*-gītā? Is that what you're quoting? Prabhupāda: No, this is in Bhāgavata. Revatīnandana: I see. But that seeing... Prabhupāda: That seeing is not ānanda. Seeing is ānanda, undoubtedly, but seeing and talking and becoming friend, that is higher. Friend or conjugal lover, father, mother. That kind of seeing is different. Revatīnandana: If that yogi quits his body in that condition, does he attain a Vaikuṇṭha planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: [break] Is it possible that if he was... This is a question that sometimes a devotee has asked me. If a yogi does attain a Vaikuṇṭha planet, but by his constitutional nature he is meant to be associated with Kṛṣṇa in Goloka... *Prabhupāda: No, why not with Viṣṇu. Vaikuṇṭha is Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa. That is also... But there Nārāyaṇa is worshiped with awe and veneration. He is God. No friendship as in Vṛndāvana. That is not possible. Vipralambha*-sakhya. Aiśvarya, aiśvarya, opulence. There the Supreme Lord is taken in aiśvarya, opulences. Not aiśvarya-sthiti. In Vṛndāvana the devotees, they practically do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. "He is our very beloved friend." That's all. They doesn't care to know whether He is God or not. Here the conception of God. Vaikuṇṭha, "Oh, here is God," with awe and veneration, respect. Revatīnandana: That I understand. The question is suppose this yogi, he has not got full knowledge, he does not know of Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he is meditating on Paramātmā, and he attains Vaikuṇṭha. Is it possible that because he hadn't got full knowledge... Prabhupāda: No, he has to go, simply by Paramātmā conception, he cannot go to Vaikuṇṭha. Revatīnandana: Can he later go on from Vaikuṇṭha to Goloka? Can that happen also? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is such instances, can go. Revatīnandana: But if a devotee knows Kṛṣṇa, if he knows of Kṛṣṇa, then wherever he is destined, he will go perfectly to his perfect position. Just like Bhīṣma knew Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: Mad*-yājino yānti mām. Kṛṣṇa devotees, they go directly, especially those who are worshiping Kṛṣṇa through Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They directly go to Kṛṣṇaloka. *Revatīnandana: What about like the case of Bhīṣmadeva where he knew about Kṛṣṇa in Goloka, and he went to Kṛṣṇa as Pārtha*-sārathi. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... He understood Kṛṣṇa as Nārāyaṇa. He will go to Vaikuṇṭha, Bhīṣmadeva. Revatīnandana: But he had full knowledge of everything as a mahājana. He knew also... *Prabhupāda: But he loved Nārāyaṇa, Catur*-bhuja. Revatīnandana: Yes, that was his constitutional position. That's all right. *Prabhupāda: Just like sometimes mādhurya*-rasa is the greatest humor... Revatīnandana: Who? *Prabhupāda: Mādhurya*-rasa, conjugal love. But still, there are devotees who prefer parental love, friendly love. That is liking. Everyone has got his own liking. But they are all the same, all the same. There is no difference between Kṛṣṇa devotee and Nārāyaṇa devotee. They are all the... But it is their liking, varieties of liking. Revatīnandana: Another related question that also arose... These come in Bhāgavata class with the devotees because they think about the questions and sometimes they come up with nice ones. When Kṛṣṇa is incarnating in His plenary incarnations like Varāha, Nṛsiṁha, like that... Prabhupāda: That is in this material world. *Revatīnandana: Yes. And sometimes devotees become devoted to those forms. Are there corresponding planets in Vaikuṇṭha for those forms of incarnation? Is there a planet of Nṛsiṁha or Nṛsiṁha*-loka in the Vaikuṇṭha sphere? Prabhupāda: So far (I) know, those planets are here within this material world. Revatīnandana: Wherever He is appearing. Prabhupāda: Hm. Even Rāmacandra's. So far I have... *Revatīnandana: On all the Vaikuṇṭhas, Kṛṣṇa is in His catur*-bhuja, four-armed form? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Revatīnandana: But those devotees will eventually go there. Those kind of devotees like devotees of Sītā*-Rāma, they will also attain the spiritual sky in their various positions. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Revatīnandana: All right. Thank you very much. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: What is this? Jānakī: One is rice and the other baḍā. Prabhupāda: What are there? Jānakī: Milk, hot. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jānakī: I think that other thing was not a good idea. Prabhupāda: No, it was too cold. Jānakī: Yes, it reduces heat. I will bring some hot pepper. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...is taking place. The rascal Darwin says that it is coming from monkey. Why the monkey does not produce a human being? All rascals. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Simply rascals. His name is Neiman? Pradyumna: Couldn't get his last, Ruby something. Prabhupāda: Ruby, that... *Pradyumna: He is a very nice gentleman. He appreciated Bhagavad*-gītā. He said right away, very... Prabhupāda: Yes... Pradyumna: My wife's typing up all your lectures. She has finished L.A. lectures. Now she is typing Māyāpura lectures, this lecture, that lecture. She has permanent machine and typewriter and apartment. So she types all during the day and she minds the child. And then it is in the same apartment. Prabhupāda: Attending class also? Pradyumna: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Pradyumna: They live now across the street, in the temple apartments. Prabhupāda: In our house? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Pradyumna: Typing. Prabhupāda: Now this house will facilitate our business. Just opposite the temple. So round about. Therefore I asked him, "Purchase these houses, purchase." Never mind. So that is not lost. They were paying rent elsewhere. They can pay here. We get our permanent tenants. Pradyumna: Yes. All children live there too. It is very nice. Prabhupāda: So these houses. Now we have got four or five houses. Two houses of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust and three houses of M.V. Trust. Pradyumna: It will be a city. It's so nice, all the children live there together. Next door there is Baladeva, that little boy with red hair. Aniruddha, he is blond hair and another boy with red hair, he is next door. He is best friend. They always play, all boys. Prabhupāda: Hm. And in the front house, there is ample space back there for children's play. This will facilitate... Very nice. And then one house after, there is another house. Pradyumna: Yes, up on the street, on our side of street. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Watseka. And that is Venice. On Venice we have got two house. The real estate men, they think of us*-very, very rich. (laughs) After purchasing these houses. Here also, we can have very nice colony, in this village. There are so many land, houses are for sale. If we can organize. Now you utilize these lands for growing fruit, flower, anything, whatever you can grow. But utilize this land. It doesn't matter what you would grow, anything. Who will be in charge? Devotee: Bhaja Hari. (?) Prabhupāda: Bhaja Hari. Where is he? Devotee: He is in his office downstairs. Prabhupāda: Call him. Devotee: Now? Right away? Prabhupāda: He has come, Śyāmasundara? Pradyumna: Śyāmasundara is here. Prabhupāda: Get him also. Pradyumna: The lady left her coat. Maybe she is still here. (end) *Room Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy -*-July 21, 1973, London *Pradyumna: "...by the conditioned soul. Thus God is all*-good, and God is all-merciful. Antaḥ praviṣṭaḥ śāstā janānām. The living entity forgets as soon as he quits his present body, but he begins his work again, initiated by the Supreme Lord. Although he forgets, the Lord gives him the intelligence to renew his work where he ended his last life. So not only does the living entity enjoy or suffer in this world according to the dictation from the Supreme Lord situated locally in the heart, but he receives the opportunity to understand Vedas from Him. If one is serious to understand the Vedic knowledge, then Kṛṣṇa gives the required intelligence. Why does He present the Vedic knowledge for understanding? Because the living entity individually needs to understand Kṛṣṇa. Vedic literature confirms this. Yo 'sau sarvair vedair gīyate. In all Vedic literature, beginning from the four Vedas, Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads and Purāṇas, the glories of the Supreme Lord are celebrated. By performing Vedic rituals, discussing the Vedic philosophy and worshiping the Lord in devotional service, He is attained. Therefore the purpose of the Vedas is to understand Kṛṣṇa. The Vedas give us direction to understand Kṛṣṇa and the process of understanding. The ultimate goal is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedānta-sūtra confirms this in the following words: tat tu samanvayāt. One can attain perfection by understanding Vedic literature, and one can understand his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead by performing the different processes. Thus one can approach Him, and at the end attain the supreme goal, who is no other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this verse, however, the purpose of the Vedas, the understanding of the Vedas, and the goal of Vedas are clearly defined." Prabhupāda: So God is acting within the heart of everyone. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. That's what I certainly believe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: I certainly believe that. Oh, I think we're very close really, in our views of God, except that I'm concentrating on studying the working of God in the people of today. You are studying the message of God given by Kṛṣṇa in the... And I'm trying to show they are the same, the same view as that revealed by Jesus and by other great... *Prabhupāda: No... When we speak of Veda, Veda means knowledge. So knowledge means knowledge of God. Any scripture that gives knowledge of God, that is Vedas. Don't think that Vedas means that only the Sāma, Yajuḥ, Atharva. Those who are following the principles to give knowledge about God, that is Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda vido jñāne. Vid*-dhātu is called veda, vetti. Jñāne when there is question of knowledge, these three forms are used: vetti, veda, vido, jñāne. Vinte vid vicaraṇe vidyate vid saptāyāṁ labhe vindati vindate. (?) This is the vid-dhātu description. So vid-dhātu means to know. So ultimate knowledge is to know God. That is real knowledge. Vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. Sarvaiḥ, all kinds of Vedas. All kinds, sarvaiḥ. So Bible can be taken as Vedas because it is trying to give knowledge about God, maybe for a certain class of men. That is another thing. But the subject matter is how to know God. So that can be taken as also, as Vedas. Because ultimate knowledge is how to know God. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So we accept Bible also as Vedas, but we simply say that they misinterpret the Biblical commandments. The Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," and the Christian people are killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. What is this? This is my question. How they'll understand God if they are so much implicated in sinful activities? According to Vedas, there are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ. So God is purest. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. How one can approach God if he leads a sinful life? That is our propagation. You give up this sinful life. Then you'll be able to understand God. You follow Christianity or Mohammedanism or Buddhism. It doesn't matter. You give up this sinful life. Revatīnandana: In the Bible it says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Revatīnandana: It's possible to see God, but only if there's purity of heart. And a sinful person has not got that purity of heart. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I... Some of the very simplest people have been years at home (?) and there's great intellectual standing. That's true. Revatīnandana: Not simple. Sinful. Sir Alistair Hardy: Simple. Revatīnandana: Not simple. We're saying "sinful." Prabhupāda: Sinful. Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh, sinful! I... I thought... I thought you said... Sorry. Revatīnandana: Yes, it's, it's, it's sin... I'm saying... Here in the Bible it says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. Revatīnandana: And how can a, how will a sinful person have that purity of heart? Sir Alistair Hardy: No, well, a sinful person hasn't got purity of heart. No, quite. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So do you...? Don't you think that killing of animal is sinful activity? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, it's a very difficult problem because surely the whole of creation has been part of God's work, and the whole of evolution, building up to man, has consisted in the killing of animals, one species killing another. Prabhupāda: So why a human being should be like one species of animal? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, er, man should gradually grow out of that. I agree. Yes. Prabhupāda: That means he's in lowest stage, animal stage. Who is killing, that means he's in animal stage. So how he can see God? Can animal, cats and dogs, can see God? That's not possible. How the animals can see God? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, we don't know at all what... Prabhupāda: No... Sir Alistair Hardy: We can't... Prabhupāda: Your Bible is meant for not the cats and dogs. It is meant for the human beings. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Our Vedas are not meant for the cats and dogs. All śāstras and scriptures and Vedas, they are meant for human being. So if human being remains on cats and dogs, how he can understand? If he voluntarily remains like the cats and dogs, then how he can understand the Vedas or Bible or Koran? He cannot. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. We have to become pure before understanding what is God. Therefore every civilized society has got a type of religion to become purified so that he can understand God. Without being purified, how it is possible? That is not possible. So at least these things should be accepted as they are in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not covet." Illicit sex life, intoxication, and killing of animals. These are in the Bible. Why they are not accepted? This is not our impositions. This is already there. Revatīnandana: And in every scripture... Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: ...for purification there are so many processes. Prabhupāda: So how they can be God conscious without being purified? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I think you're probably getting tired, and I think I probably... Prabhupāda: You can give some prasādam. Take some prasādam. Sir Alistair Hardy: You don't know what the time is? Good gracious, quarter to six. Yes. Prabhupāda: No, we are very glad to meet together, and we are ready to help you in your research work, provided you take our help. That will be very nice for you. Revatīnandana: I'll say one thing. If you want to see where in the world people are experiencing God, experiencing their relationship with God, you should examine this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, I think. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, well I've, I've... Revatīnandana: You'll see people who are living in every minute of every day in relation with God, and their experience is joyful... Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. Revatīnandana: ...and full of knowledge. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. Mukunda: Actually, it's not that we're studying the past, but we study a principle called dharma which means that principle of life which never changes. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. Mukunda: That's our main concern. *Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I'd very much like to have records of experience, accounts of present*-day experience. Although as I say, at the moment I'm rather tending to concentrate on the western. I'm hoping to get scholars who are really Sanskrit scholars and those people who can really understand the language of oriental affairs. Prabhupāda: No, first thing is: this, this is a different science. Science of God is not material science. Simply material, academic career will not help. Sir Alistair Hardy: No, no. I agree. *Revatīnandana: "Eastern*-Western" will not help. Sir Alistair Hardy: No, I get example (?) to both, both from the East and the West. *Prabhupāda: Simply by becoming Sanskrit scholar or Latin scholar, it is not sufficient. He must be God-realized, purified. Then it is possible. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ: [Brs. 1.2.234] "By your these blunt senses it is not possible to understand what is God, what is His form, what is His name, what is His quality, what is His kingdom, what is His paraphernalia." These things are to be understood. God means... Just like when we speak of "king." King does not mean alone. King means he has got his queen, he has got his kingdom, he has got his secretary, he has got his minister, he has got his palace, he has... so many things, king, royal. When we speak of Queen, we immediately remember the Buckingham Palace, his (her) bodyguards and so many, so many other things. Similarly, God means He has got His entourage also, everything. He's not alone. To understand God means to understand everything of God-His name, His fame, His līlā, His pastimes. So nāmādi. With all these blunt senses, how can we... We cannot understand even the Personality of Godhead, what to speak of other things? "God is a person:"*-it is a very difficult subject matter for ordinary man to take it, very difficult subject. That is stated in the... Even the demigods they cannot understand. That is... Because he's thinking materially that "This cosmic manifestation, then creation, is so big, and it is created by a person. How it is possible?" But... Because they do not know what is that person. Simply by the word "person," he is afraid: "Oh, oh, oh, oh." Revatīnandana: "He's like me. I can't do it. Therefore not a person." Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: "No person except He's like me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Vedic scripture says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His person is different. Sac-cid-ānanda. That is not exactly with our personality. This is material. This is temporary personality. Now I am man. Next time I may become dog, Next time become demigod. It is changing. It is not eternal, sat. So God is not like that. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā [Bg. 4.6]. He does not come here being forced by the material energy. He comes by His spiritual energy. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā. Find out this. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. Therefore, as soon as He's accepted as ordinary man, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. He does not know what is the power behind that. Read it. Pradyumna: Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san, prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya... Prabhupāda: Prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya. *Pradyumna: Sambhavāmy ātma*-māyayā [Bg. 4.6]. "Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original, transcendental form." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. *Pradyumna: "The Lord has spoken about the peculiarity of His birth. Although He may appear like an ordinary person, He remembers everything of His many, many past births, whereas a common man cannot remember what he has done even a few hours before. If someone is asked what he did exactly at the same time one day earlier, it would be very difficult for a common man to answer immediately. He would surely have to dredge his memory to recall what he was doing exactly at the same time one day before. And yet, men often dare claim to be God, or Kṛṣṇa. One should not be misled by such meaningless claims. Then again, the Lord explains His prakṛti, or His form. Prakṛti means nature, as well as svarūpa, or one's own form. The Lord says that He appears in His own body. He does not change His body as the common living entity changes from one body to another. The conditioned soul may have one kind of body in the present birth, but yet a different body in the next birth. In the material world, the living entity has no fixed body, but transmigrates from one body to another. The Lord, however, does not do so. Whenever He appears, He does so in the same original body by His internal potency. In other words, Kṛṣṇa appears in this material world in his original eternal form with two hands, holding a flute. He appears exactly in His eternal body, uncontaminated by this material world. Although He appears in the same transcendental body and is the Lord of the universe, it still appears that He takes His birth like an ordinary living entity. Despite the fact Lord Kṛṣṇa grows from childhood to boyhood and from boyhood to youth, astonishingly enough, He never ages beyond youth. At the time of the Battle of Kurukṣetra, He had many grandchildren at home, or in other words, He had sufficiently aged by material calculations. Still, He looked just like a young man, twenty or twenty*-five years old. We never see a picture of Kṛṣṇa in old age because He never grows old like us, although He is the oldest person in the..." *Prabhupāda: Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. Purāṇa-puruṣa, the oldest man, oldest living entity, but nava-yauvana, just like young man. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam [Bs. 5.33]. Purāṇa means oldest, because He's the origin of all living entities. But nava-yauvanaṁ ca, just a fresh, young man. Hm. Go on. Pradyumna: "And, although He is the oldest person..." (continues reading to the end of the purport) *Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. So you have got this Bhagavad*-gītā now. Kindly take it. That will help you in your research work. And whenever you kindly ask us in some question, we are prepared to help you. Revatīnandana: One thing I noticed, at one point you mentioned that you only have a few years to go and you're working on this particular subject of how religion is experienced today. Do you really think you only have a few years to go? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I don't know, but I... Prabhupāda: No, that is material calculation. Sir Alistair Hardy: I'm getting on. Revatīnandana: That's right. *Sir Alistair Hardy: I'm seventy*-seven. *Revatīnandana: Well, are you really seventy*-seven? *Sir Alistair Hardy: I'm seventy*-seven, yes. *Revatīnandana: But are you really seventy*-seven? You see what I mean? Sir Alistair Hardy: No... Revatīnandana: When does the work begin of actually knowing God, to actually know God? When does that business begin? Actually, we think that when this body is finished, we are now finished. But if we're not working toward God, we'll come back here and work again because we're working in some other direction. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. Revatīnandana: So to be working in the vicinity of God, as you are, that's good, but to try to know God, that's the ultimate destination. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, well, that's... Yes. Well, I agree. But I must think of getting back to... Revatīnandana: They're bringing some fruit for you. Mukunda: In a few minutes they're bringing some refreshments. Prabhupāda: Can you wait? Mukunda: I can take you straight to the station. Sir Alistair Hardy: And I must catch at least the 7:15 train. Mukunda: Oh, yes, definitely. Sir Alistair Hardy: 7:15 Revatīnandana: 7:15 there'll be plenty of time. If we leave twenty minutes from now, by that time you will have had a little... Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I... Revatīnandana: They're bringing something right now. Prabhupāda: You have to go to Oxford? Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, yes, I must. I've been to the great temple of Rāmeśvaram in southern India, south of Madras. It was a very fine experience. Prabhupāda: All the temples you have seen? South India? Sir Alistair Hardy: A temple in southern India. Revatīnandana: Which one? Mukunda: Rāmeśvaram. Sir Alistair Hardy: Rāmeśvaram. Prabhupāda: Rāmeśvaram. *Sir Alistair Hardy: Rāmeś... I'm sorry. I pronounced it wrong. Rāmeśvaram. There pilgrims bring water from the Ganges. They have a pool in which they keep it. I think. I'm not quite sure if I understood, but I think that over the period, all pilgrims bring water from the Ganges. And I think this water in this pool is Ganges water, which is continually added to by pilgrims coming. I'm not sure about that. That's what I understood, but I don't know. I'd a rather amusing experience, there. I was doing a drawing... I was very fascinated. Its very beautiful pagoda*-like entrances, north, east, south... Revatīnandana: Temple gates. Sir Alistair Hardy: Temple gates. Yes. And I was making a drawing of this. So I had a very big crowd around me. And my Indian friends... I'd been staying at Mandapam (?) which is the... It was a naval settlement. Well, it was really a settlement of the Indian fisheries. My biological interest had always been in the sea. And these friends came over, and they left this case while they went to take photographs. And they came back. And so the crowd were very excited. "Would you like to know what they're saying?" And so I said, "Yes." So he said, "What they're saying is, 'Isn't he wonderful! Isn't he wonderful! He's taking photographs with his fingers.' " They were more used to photographs, I think. They'd never seen anyone doing an actual... They'd seen symbolic drawings, but... I was reproducing the temple gates, and they said I was taking photographs with my fingers. I thought that was a wonderful expression really, "taking photographs with my fingers." (Someone brings in prasādam) Oh, thank you. Prabhupāda: No, you can keep it here. Revatīnandana: Perhaps if you keep your case there. Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh. My case, yes. Revatīnandana: You can use it like a little table. Sir Alistair Hardy: Thank you. Such a huge... Oh, now can I have... I'd like some of this. Put that down. Put that down. Pradyumna: You know the Indian style of... Sir Alistair Hardy: I must follow you, how you eat this. I don't know how you... Prabhupāda: Anything you can eat, as you like. There is no restriction. Pradyumna: That's called purī. Sir Alistair Hardy: Purīs, yes, that's lovely. Yes. Pradyumna: You probably had those in India. *Sir Alistair Hardy: [break] ...through India, going out to the Far East. I've been out advising on the setting up of a fishery, biological research, at Hong Kong. But I never believe in going straight out and I've always stopped in India, various places, very little, short time. (eating) I had a great friend, Professor Bower, who was professor of zoology at Lucknow. He then became the vice*-chancellor of Patna. But he overworked very badly, and he had a breakdown, and then... But he was an awfully nice man. I stayed with him in Lucknow. Prabhupāda: This zoology is another subject matter, whether life began from matter or matter began from life. Sir Alistair Hardy: That's a great problem in biology, how did life arise from the inorganic matter. Revatīnandana: Quite a problem. We don't agree. We think that it didn't. Sir Alistair Hardy: No? I say, that's... Prabhupāda: Life came from life; *matter also came from matter, er, life. That is explained in the Vedānta*-sūtra, janmādyasya yataḥ. And it is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. So there is no difficulty. Sir Alistair Hardy: But life may have arisen from the inorganic by the breathing in of the Divine into it. And there's no doubt that our bodies are material, but within our bodies is this divine, what I call the "divine flame" in one of my (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Why not the "divine person?" Wherefrom flame comes? Revatīnandana: He says, now how to find out the Divine Person from whom the flame comes? Just like you were talking about how God is a manifestation of power, in your statement. But the manifestation of power we always find in relation with a source of power. Just like the sunlight is a manifestation of the power, and this great power of the sunlight, they're tapping it for electricity and so many things now, but that sunlight is not an independent entity. It's dependent on the source. Prabhupāda: And Veda also, points out, yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. So your New York going is suspended now? Mukunda: No, I'm still going. Prabhupāda: When you are going? Mukunda: As soon as possible. (pause) [break] Prabhupāda: Then talk of all this moral instruction. If you are killing yourself, then why do you object? Why? [break] ...ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. *Revatīnandana: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I recognize the Bengali. What's the...? Prabhupāda: You should teach philosophy by behaving yourself. Revatīnandana: Very nice. So simple. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...talked with many gentleman, lawyer. That Goldsmith, he was against war, but when I asked him, "Whether you are meat*-eaters, killing animals?", "Yes, that is our food." So if the poor animals can become your food, the big nation can say, "The small nation is my food. I can kill them. We can kill them." Everyone can say. And that is happening like, "Might is right." Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Goldsmith? He's a lawyer or something in Los Angeles? Prabhupāda: Hm, hm, hm. (Yes) No, not Los Angeles. New York. Revatīnandana: Oh, this Gold, Martin... Some, his name was, in Los Angeles, Gold, Martin Gold. Sir Alistair Hardy: [Break] ...Tagore thought of in India today. I've always admired Rabindranath Tagore's very much, his poetic writings. Do people in India think much of him today? Prabhupāda: What about that? Revatīnandana: Rabindranath Tagore. Haṁsadūta : If his writings are highly considered by people in India? Prabhupāda: No, not at all. Sir Alistair Hardy: Not at all. No. Prabhupāda: What is his writings? So many speculation. That's all. But it has got little similarity to Vaiṣṇavism. His Gītāñjali... Sir Alistair Hardy: He had a great reputation in the western world. Prabhupāda: But his literatures are not read by our... A section. Revatīnandana: Mostly in Bengal. And because he was accepted in the West, therefore they are very proud of it. But otherwise... Prabhupāda: The Russians read. I have heard that in your Oxford University there is study of Rabindranath's books? They study? Sir Alistair Hardy: They study which books? Prabhupāda: Rabindranath. Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh, I think they produce some of them, yes. He gave a course of lectures in Oxford about 1923, or, '22 or '23, which were very well attended. I wasn't there, unfortunately, but I read them. Prabhupāda: 1953? Haṁsadūta: '23. Prabhupāda: '23. Sir Alistair Hardy: '23. (end) Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London Prabhupāda: You have heard something about our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I know something in general, yes. Perhaps you would tell me more. *Prabhupāda: It is based on Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You have read Bhagavad*-gītā, I think. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So primarily, it is based on Bhagavad*-gītā, and then it is being explained from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā is the preliminary study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So we get ideas from Bhagavad*-gītā how God consciousness can make the human society happy. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. (keeps saying "Yes" repeatedly throughout the conversation) Prabhupāda: The aim of human society should be God realization. That is the distinction between an animal and a human being. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Then, by God's arrangement, by nature's arrangement, all the necessities of the living entities, they will be supplied. They will be free from all anxieties, diseases. This was practically demonstrated during the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. I, I wish to quote some passages from... during the reign of... Pradyumna: Start with number one? Prabhupāda: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, after the Battle of Kurukṣetra, all the five brothers, they were almost fasting, as, what is called, atonement for so many people killed for their sake. Then, under the instruction of elderly persons, Bhīṣma and Kṛṣṇa, he accepted the ruling power, governmental, and during his time... You read that, kāmaṁ vavarṣa... Pradyumna: It says, Prabhupāda: Translation. Pradyumna: "Translation. During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk." Prabhupāda: This was the position of the kingdom, that the cows felt secure. At the present moment, the cows are very unhappy. I have seen. They are almost crying. Because they can understand that "After some time, we'll be killed." Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: They can understand that. So during Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time, the cows were happy, and because they were happy, they were producing so much milk that when they were on the pasturing ground, the pasturing ground became moist with milk. Milk was dropping. So much milk supply. And kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ: [SB 1.10.4] There was regular rainfall and ample production of food grains, other things also. Just like jewelry, they are also produced by the rainfall and certain constellation of the stars. That we understand from the astrological books. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they produce these stones also, mean puṣyanna*-kṣatra. So therefore it is said that kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. And this parjanyaḥ, or the rainfall, is made possible by performing sacrifices. You read that portion, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. *Pradyumna: This is from Bhagavad*-gītā. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Prabhupāda: Annād bhavanti bhūtāni means by eating sufficiently, the living entities, they grow, they become strong, both animals and human beings. Then? *Pradyumna: Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Prabhupāda: And the anna, these grains, they are produced from parjanyaḥ, from clouds. Now? Next? Pradyumna: Yajñād bhavati parjanyo... Prabhupāda: And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. And when we regularly perform yajña, then there is regular cloud in the sky. And when there is cloud in the sky, there is regular rainfall, and when there is regular rainfall, there is sufficient production of food grains, fruits and other vegetables so that both the animal and the human beings, they eat sufficiently, they grow strength, they become happy and again perform yajña. And the animals supply, the cow supplies milk. In this way, the whole society becomes happy. These are the prescriptions, or directions, given by the Vedic literature. So if people take advantage of this instruction, as you have mentioned in your article "The Great Seers," so if we follow their instruction, the whole history of the human being can be changed. There is no difficulty. But whether the people will accept or not, that is the business of the leaders of the society. So far I think that British people, they organized very nicely the British Empire, but some way or other, it is now lost. But still, the British prestige can be elevated if actually, according to the Vedic instruction, you try to make your social construction, the political institution and economic development... Every direction is there. So you are all great historians. And there are many politicians. If you take this instruction of the *Vedas* little seriously, you can make your state an ideal state, and people are still ready to follow you. Then the whole history of the world will change. And if you people agree, then I can help you. I can help. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause) *Prabhupāda: There must be ample production of food grains and milk product. Then the whole economic problem solved. And the formula is there. How to get ample agricultural production and milk, everything is there in Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And the examples of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, that is also there. But one... We must be serious to accept this formula for practical application. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. You would apply the teachings of the *Gītā* to all human societies at all times. Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes, that is my ambition, that let the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā be practically accepted by the human society, and surely they'll be happy. Surely. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glanīr bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So now everything is confused. And in your country, or western countries, they are very organized. So you are not feeling now so much confusion. But it is coming. But in India and countries like that, it is very confusion state. Yes. They have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western type of civilization. So they are lost. They are lost. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: In India is everybody lost, the Indian culture...? Prabhupāda: No, not everybody. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, no. *Prabhupāda: Not everybody. But general mass of people, at least, the so*-called educated, five to ten percent people, they are lost. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And so*-called educated, they practically guide. You'll be surprised to know that in 1950, one of my students, he was a government statistics officer. So he went to some village, and he gave me report that the villagers inquired from him that "Babuji, agar angarej ko vote diya yai pasatela (?)" Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: You understand Hindi? No. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, I don't. No, no, no. Prabhupāda: No. The inquiry was that "If we again give votes to the Englishmen, will they come and do." (laughs) Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu*-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. But the people who rule India now have a western education mostly. The Indians who... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Perverted, converted. Just like Nehru. Nehru was western*-educated. He was educated in London. But he hated everything Indian. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the res... Formerly, in our childhood we saw that any gentleman coming here in London and goes back to India, he no more mixes with the Indian soil. He... They were called "England*-returned." So they made their own society. Then our Ram Mohan Raya, he formed a Brahmo Society. And so many things changed. Again, they are now topsy-turvied. So actually, India's position is that they have lost their own culture, and they could not assimilate the western culture. But in the western countries, if they accept this Vedic process of civilization, then they will again take it. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Śyāmasundara: "A Rival for Nelson." Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: "A Rival for Nelson." Prabhupāda: Yes. There was newspaper photograph. You have seen that? Śyāmasundara: Guardian. Prabhupāda: Guardian. "A Rival for Nelson." Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Well, the western countries are mostly concerned with economics, money, wealth... Prabhupāda: No, that is... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: It's about the same as... *Prabhupāda: That they can continue. But the spirit of Vedic culture should be accepted. It is not that because one has to accept the Vedic culture, he has to stop industry or material progress. Not like that. Bhagavad*-gītā does not teach that. Simply to change the consciousness. Therefore we have named the Society "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." One has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be adjusted. Not the mode of life should be changed. Little change. Just like we recommend that four things should be avoided: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. So to give up these four kinds of activities, which are considered to be sinful, that is not very difficult. That is not very difficult. These English and, I mean to say, European and American boys, they are young men. They have given up. So in the society, if there is prevalence of sinful activities, then there will be reaction. So these four things are considered sinful activities: illicit sex, meat, unecessarily killing of animals, and intoxication, and gambling. Yatra pāpas catur-vidhaḥ. These are four kinds of sinful activities. So Vedic civilization means they should be freed from the sinful activities. Then other things will automatically come. Śyāmasundara: I think Mr. Toynbee... I saw on television, I saw you once on a television program in New York. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: And you concluded that if men came out of this age who had developed a spirit of renunciation, true renunciation from material pursuit, that this would enable the world to rectify its present precarious position. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Śyāmasundara: So... Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you see any signs of change in the western world or not? Prabhupāda: Well, change can take place any moment, provided they will take this movement little seriously. Change for good. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Change for good. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. And your article showed that you are also for change for good. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our movement and your honor, we can cooperate for the good of the general people. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Śyāmasundara: How do you see this "spirit of true renunciation," as you call it, how do you see it...? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Śyāmasundara: How do you see that that is able to come about at this time in history? *Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There are some signs in western countries, of people turning away from just money*-making professions, I think. Small signs, but distinct signs perhaps. But it'll take a long time, and probably only through a great deal of suffering will people learn to change their attitude to life, I think. I think in Britain at the present, people of all classes are going for more wealth, more material standard of living, and so on, they're thinking almost entirely of this, which doesn't make for happiness and cannot really be achieved by everybody. Śyāmasundara: Many young people, especially young people... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Many people nowadays are finding this renunciation quite simple and easy... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: ...as Prabhupāda was saying about the four rules and so many other activities. We may perform something on the surface, but the renunciation is there in our consciousness because we're giving everything to Kṛṣṇa as a service. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. What about America? (Sound of glasses of water being poured) Śyāmasundara: Oh yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: That's good. (?) Devotee: Some water, Dr. Toynbee? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, thank you. And what about Japan? She's an Asian country, but has been very successful in the western way now. Śyāmasundara: Well, we have two centers there also. Japan also, we have centers. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I get the impression the Japanese are not very happy. They're very... Prabhupāda: Nobody can be happy with this materialistic way of life. That is a fact. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: Our centers, Prabhupāda has started centers all over the world, one hundred and ten centers. Thousands of people are giving up the material attachment. Prabhupāda: In Bengal, there was one secretary of the government, Toynbee. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You knew him? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, no. Prabhupāda: He's different man. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Probably some connection there. Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: I... In some business I saw him sometimes in 1948, like that. (pause) Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Sad that Bengal has been divided. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Very sad. Prabhupāda: Bengal is now divided. East Bengal is now called Bangladesh, and West Bengal is there. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They still keep to the language, and they feel themselves Bengalis, though they're just (most?) Muslims. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They're keeping the Bengali language. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: India was divided, Pakistan and Hindustan. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. There's a great consciousness of difference of language too in India, which is rather new. In the past... Prabhupāda: The two Bengals, they speak the same language. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Two... Yes. Prabhupāda: But West Pakistan, they speak Hindi, or Urdu. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: And the southern states are very conscious of their different languages. Prabhupāda: Actually, English language... Now we see. We have got the facility of speaking in English language all over the world. Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: That is true. Yes. Prabhupāda: Whole America speaks English language. Australia, New Zealand. In India also, practically all educated men, they speak in English. So in Africa. In Europe also, they understand English language. Not very much, but... (laughs) The Germans, especially, they do not like. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. No. Prabhupāda: They do not like. Śyāmasundara: Only at the airport. Prabhupāda: France? What is the position in France? They don't like also. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No. Prabhupāda: In Canada, there is two languages, English and French. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. And unfortunately, a great feeling between the two. Prabhupāda: This material world is based on jealousy. And spiritual world is based on friendship. That is the difference. So the, these materialistic persons, United Nations, League of Nations, they are trying to unite, but they, at heart, there is jealousy. So they can never become united. This is only bogus farce. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: What do you think? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: They cannot be united because at heart there is jealousy. They go to the United Nations assembly. So one man is speaking with jealousy for the other. The other man is speaking (laughs) with jealous... So how they can be united? It is not possible. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Yes. No. Prabhupāda: Therefore, they should adopt this Kṛṣṇa conscious platform. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstava vastu vedyaṁ atra [SB 1.1.2]. So it is a very scientific movement. I would like that persons like you, you should take some little active part to push on this movement. (pause) Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Śyāmasundara: What do we mean by renunciation? Prabhupāda: Renunciation, practically, there is no question of renunciation. According to our philosophy... Just like father and the son. So son cannot renounce father's protection or the property. Some way or other, he has to take advantage of it. But... Therefore renunciation means that as every son has got a right on the property of the father, similarly, every living entity has got right to live at the cost of God. But they should not encroach upon others' right. That is renunciation. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But at the present moment, they are encroaching upon others' right. And that is sinful, and he's punishable. Just like every living entity has got the right to live at the cost of God. But the human being is interfering with the rights of living of the animals. They have got the right. As human being has got the right to live... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I agree. Prabhupāda: ...why not they? National. National means a living entity born in particular country. So at the present moment, the national means only human being. The animals are not nationals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. So this kind of sinful activities are going on. Therefore renunciation means to give up these sinful activities. That is real renunciation. Otherwise, you cannot renounce anything. You have to live. And that is allowed at the cost of God. Everything belongs to God. You are son of God. So you live. But don't encroach... Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. That is the instruction of *Īśopaniṣad*. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything belongs to God. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. So you have got the right to enjoy what is allotted for you. Don't encroach upon others' right. This is renunciation. But they are encroaching upon others' right. Especially the human society. And that is the cause of all troubles. Because they have no God consciousness, they have no sense about God, and there is no sense about next life... What is your opinion about life after death? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: My opinion is that an individual human being is, in life in this world, is temporarily separated from the whole of spiritual reality, and after death we rejoin the reality that we are separated from. Prabhupāda: That is Christian idea. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. After death... But so far I know, Christian there is consideration of hell and heaven. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Somebody is going to hell, somebody's going to heaven. Is it not? After death? Devotee: Yes, I think so. Śyāmasundara: That was my understanding. Devotee: That is the Christian idea. Prabhupāda: So, if there is question of hell and heaven, then we are responsible in this life for our next life, whether we are going to hell or heaven. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. I would agree. Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is nice. There is next life. And according to your work, you get hellish life or heavenly life. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: And you would believe that karma is continuous from... Prabhupāda: Karma, yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: ...one life to another. Prabhupāda: Yes, transferred. Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is practical. If you become nice student... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Karma can be... Prabhupāda: ...then, in future, you become a nice professor. But if you do not study nicely, how you can become a professor? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So karma you cannot deny. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, in this life, my karma... That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. According to your karma and by the supervision of superior authority, you get a body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. The living entity gets a certain type of body according to the karma. And this is allotted by superior authority. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: The people do not know all these things. They have no idea. They have no idea, neither... Even these things are there in the Vedic literature, they are not very much interested. And practically, in the darkness, they do not know what is next... I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He, he is in charge of Indology. That gentleman told me, "Swamiji, after death there is nothing. Everything is finished." So I was surprised, that such a learned man, and he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul. These are the defects of modern civilization. Those who are leaders, teachers, they are not sufficiently in knowledge. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I think, in western countries now, people are very much afraid of death. It's... Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Especially in America, people are very much afraid of... They won't even mention or think about death which is a great weakness. One should be able to think about death. Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is... That is natural. That is natural. Suppose if, after my death, I am going to become something lower than my present position, certainly I must be afraid of it. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Suppose if somebody gives me... This is a fact. Recently one astrologer has said that one of the biggest politicians in India, he has now become a dog in Sweden. May be correct or not, but there is possibility. There is possibility. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Because from the śāstra we understand, karmāṇa, by work, one has to... Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. By prakṛti, by nature, as we make... Just like if we eat little more, so by the laws of nature, immediately there is indigestion. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny this adjustment. So why not...? I am sufferer of my karma. So according to my karma, I get a body,... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: ...suffering or enjoyment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25], bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā... Who goes where-that is stated here. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. Everything is there. We can understand. We can understand where we are going. So one who is going to a higher level of life*-and the most perfection of life is go back to home, back go Godhead-he's not afraid of death. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Sādhu maro vā jīva vā. It is said, for a sādhu, saintly person, either he lives or dies, he has the same position, back to home, back to Godhead. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Karma can be changed for better or for worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Karma can be changed by bhakti. Otherwise, cannot be. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. In each life. *Prabhupāda: By bhakti. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājam [Bs. 5.54]. That is stated in the śāstras. The karma can be counteracted only by bhakti-bhājam, devotional service. Otherwise it is not. Therefore our duty is only to endeavor for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not to bother with other things, economic development. Because they are under the karma laws. So whatever happiness and distress under karma I am destined to suffer or enjoy, that will come automatically. So you haven't got to try for it. But if you, if we do not try for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we are wasting time. So far our other things are concerned, that will come and go according to karma. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. But not many people... Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Not many people in western countries are thinking about this now. Prabhupāda: That's not very good. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No. Prabhupāda: That's not good. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No. Prabhupāda: That means it proves less intelligence. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: If they do not know the law of karma and the transmigration of the soul, change of body, that means no intellectual... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: So let us... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Now, in India more people are living in the western way, though, living in cities, working in factories and offices. Does this make them have the western state of mind, the western point of view? Or can they resist it? Prabhupāda: No, everything can be changed. If they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The consciousness has to be changed. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, that... Yes. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, let him work in the factory or in the office, in the city. It doesn't matter. One has to change his consciousness. Then he's perfect, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That consciousness has to be changed. Then everything will be, automatically become... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. (pause) Prabhupāda: What book you are writing now? *Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Oh, I'm writing a book about Greece, about the effect of ancient Greece on present*-day Greece. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Dr. Arnold Toynbee: The Greeks, like Indo*-China, have a great past, and this is quite a difficulty for them. They're rather overshadowed by their own past. They don't quite know how to deal with it. I am writing about that. Prabhupāda: What is your view about connection of the old Greeks with India? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: About the Greeks in India? Prabhupāda: Greek, Greek people and Indian. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: For several centuries they had a very important part in Indian history. Very important. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: A number of them changed their religion and adopted Indian religion, didn't they. Yes. Prabhupāda: No, they... So far our *Mahābhārata* is concerned, we understand that the Greek people came from India. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Originally. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There's that famous... [break] Prabhupāda: Pakistan is also now divided. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Also Indonesia, and they're... On the surface they're Muslims but underneath they're Hindu, there's been... Prabhupāda: I have been in Indonesia. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: You've also... Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their culture is Hindu culture. But by religion they have accepted Muslim. They still, their names are Hindu names. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Names are Hindu. There Garuḍa, Garuḍa. The airway is Garuḍa. Garuḍa is the carrier of Viṣṇu. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I've seen their shadow plays, and all the subjects and the heroes are from the Indian history, the Indian epics, not from Muslim. So... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: They all have two names. They have a Sanskrit name and an Arabic name, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I've also been in ... Prabhupāda: And Java. Java, they are Hindus. Still. In Indonesia also, there are many Hindus. They have got their Vedic way of worship. They accept Viṣṇu. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. Prabhupāda: You were with me in Indonesia? Devotee: No. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is your view of the future, the history, the future history? *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is there, described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. The, the governmental power will go to the rascals and thieves, rogues. And their only business will be how to exploit the people. So one side, by not sufficient rain, there will be scarcity of foodstuff, and one side, the government will tax like anything. In this way, people will be so much harassed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This will be done in Kali*-yuga. And gradually, there will be no supply of grains. Especially rice, wheat, sugar, milk, these things will be finished. So people will be obliged to take flesh. These are all stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Śyāmasundara: In that case, is there any hope in a movement like ours to rectify the situation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If they take to Kṛṣṇa co... That is also stated, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta*-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Kīrtanād, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can become free from all these calamities and go back to home, back to Godhead. Only Kṛṣṇa conscious people will be free from all these calamities. Others will have to suffer. Śyāmasundara: So societies in general will not improve, but more people... *Prabhupāda: Improve... Major portion is stated like that. But there is always light and darkness. Always. So the light party will be also there. This is the only, that take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. Doṣa-nidhi. Nidhi means ocean, and doṣa means faults. But there is one opportunity. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ. Very great profit. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's name and becoming Kṛṣṇa con..., one shall be freed from all these calamities and he'll go back to home, back to Godhead. Simply by this. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. This very word is used. Mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet. So this is the only shelter. If people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be saved from all the calamities of this age. Otherwise, there is no other... Now they are going to the forest, the hippies. Eh? Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. Giri-kānanam means to the forests, to the hills. They'll go. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇām. Dāra means wife, and draviṇā means money. So they'll be separated from wife and money, and they'll go to the forest and hills, being disappointed. This is happening already. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. Śyāmasundara: Does this correspond, Mr. Toynbee, with your view of the future history? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the future history. You can predict in your writings. Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: With more people in politics in India, are they able to keep the Vedic ideal? Or...? Prabhupāda: No, no. They have given up. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No. Prabhupāda: The politicians, they (say that) "These books are useless. Throw them in the water." They say like that publicly. They are not interested. Rather, this movement, as I have now began with my disciples, European, American boys, they're... They are not very satisfied, the present politicians. They are not very satisfied. They don't want. Everywhere this, more or less the same mentality, but it is our duty on behalf of Kṛṣṇa to push on this movement. So we are doing, and we are getting response. It is not without response. It will increase. That is also stated, that for ten thousand years Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will increase. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Ten thousand years. *Prabhupāda: Within ten thousand years, if they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then life is successful. After ten thousand years, the gloomy picture of Kali*-yuga will come. Still there is time. Ten thousand years is not small period. So we have passed five thousand years. So still ten thousand. We have got to the fifteen thousand years. Kali-yuga's duration of life is four hundred thousand, four hundred and twenty-seven thousand. Char-lakh murti saja. (?) Yes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Do you travel much all over the world and...? Prabhupāda: Yes. At least twice in a year, all over the world. Just in April I was here, in London. April? Or May? Śyāmasundara: May. Prabhupāda: May. Śyāmasundara: Then to India. Prabhupāda: In the month of May I was here. Again I have come in July. Formerly, from India to come to London, it was like a dream. And now it is daily affair. (laughs) Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You get on the plane in the morning and go in the evening there. Simply you have to pay. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. So let us... So thank you very much for your... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: It was very kind of you to come. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I'm sorry I couldn't see you next week which would have been more convenient to you, but unfortunately next week I was very much occupied, and I'm very grateful to you for coming this afternoon. It was kind of you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (pause) Devotee: These are some of His Divine Grace's books here, Dr. Toynbee. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Hm? Yes? Devotee: And we'd like to leave them with you in fact. Prabhupāda: Any one you can take. There are so many. Mukunda: Give first volume. Prabhupāda: Give him the first volume. *Devotee: This is First Canto, Part One of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Śyāmasundara: With commentaries, Sanskrit... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, this is the original text and the translation. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yes. This is Śrīla... Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I have some small editions up here. Prabhupāda: But this is elaborate. (pause) Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Several. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: *Bhāgavatam*? *Devotee: Bhagavad*-gītā. *Śyāmasundara: Bhagavad*-gītā. Devotee: Dr. Radhakrishnan's, (indistinct) ...ananda and Isherwood, Christopher Isherwood. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I'm very grateful to this... Śyāmasundara: This is *Bhāgavatam*. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. Devotee: Have you studied Sanskrit, Dr. Toynbee? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes? What? Devotee: You have studied Sanskrit? Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Sanskrit? No, unfortunately not. No. No. (pause) This is a very fine edition, this. I'm very grateful for it. This is for me, is it? Śyāmasundara: Oh yes. Please accept it. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Very kind of you. (pause, sounds like Śrīla Prabhupāda is exiting) ...other side(?). Devotee: Thank you very much, Dr. Toynbee. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I'm very grateful to you for coming. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Thank you very much. Devotee: Oh, my shoes. Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Oh, have you left something behind? Devotee: I left my shoes. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) ...in the country lately, and we're not used to wearing shoes. (laughter) Thank you very much for (indistinct). Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with Lord Brockway -- July 23, 1973, London *Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda, this is Lord Fenner*-Brockway. Prabhupāda: I'm so glad to... Śyāmasundara: And... Prabhupāda: So you were born in Calcutta? Lord Brockway: Yes, a little before you. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So how long you remained after your birth? Lord Brockway: I only remained in India for four years. Prabhupāda: Four years. Lord Brockway: And my childhood was spent at Berampur. Prabhupāda: Berampur? Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: I see. Lord Brockway: My parents were missionaries there. Prabhupāda: Hm. I was also a student of missionary college, Scottish Churches' College. Lord Brockway: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We had very good professors. W. S. Urquhart, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was a Scotsman. Lord Brockway: Yes, yes. Was that in Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes, in Calcutta. And Lord Rolandson, Zetland, Marquis of Zetland. He was governor of Bengal. So he's also a Scotsman. Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he came to our college in our, when we were young men, second year student. All our professors, mostly they were Scotsmen, and there was one English professor, Mister Warren. All other professors, they were Scotsmen, Mr. Keye, Mr. Cameron, Mr. Scrimgeour in this way. Lord Brockway: Those are Scottish names. Prabhupāda: Yes, Scottish names. So you remained only four years after your birth. Lord Brockway: That is true. But I have quite clear memories, especially of Berampur, of our house, of playing with Indian children under a tree... Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: He goes back frequently to India for visits. Prabhupāda: Berampur is not very far away from our temple. Śyāmasundara: In Māyāpura? Prabhupāda: Yes. That road goes to Berampur. That is called Berampur National Road. Lord Brockway: Yes, it was then a village. I understand it is now a town. When I was in India five years ago, I set aside one day to visit Berampur, and unfortunately, it was the one day when I was not well. So I never went back. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen. You have so many nice books. We have got also some books. Have you shown him these books? Śyāmasundara: Yes, I've given him some. Lord Brockway: Oh, you... I have received many books. Śyāmasundara: Mister... Lord Brockway has been a vegetarian his life long. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's very... That's a good advancement for spiritual understanding. Lord Brockway: Yes, I became a vegetarian, oh, seventy years ago. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Lord Brockway: All from ascetic ideas, humanitarian ideas. And I've proved one can be just as healthy. Prabhupāda: Yes, you look very healthy. *Lord Brockway: Over eighty*-five years. I'm very fortunate. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's older than me. Still, he looks very nice. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Still active in the Parliament. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: And I know little about your religion and your philosophy. I do not belong to any religious denomination, though I believe in the spiritual basis of the universe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: And the great moments of inspiration are those rare moments when you feel you belong to all of life, from the beginning of time, now, everywhere. *Prabhupāda: No, our preaching is also on that point, that God is one, and we are all sons of God. Call our paṇḍita. In the... I think you have read Bhagavad*-gītā. Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: There it is stated Pradyumna: Start with the godly? Prabhupāda: Yes, godly. Yes. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: This boy is American boy, but he has learned Sanskrit very nicely. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Then the demonic nature? Pradyumna: Then, Prabhupāda: Then characteristics of demonic people? Pradyumna: Uh... Prabhupāda: Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca... Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Then? Next verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of the demoniac people, that the, there is no God, there is no controller, it has come into existence by chemical reaction, just like a child is born by sex intercourse, reaction of some chemicals. This is the demonic theory. But... What is the next? Go on. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali*-yuga. So people are being misled. Actually, the human being, the form of human life, is distinct from animal life. So if we live like animals, then we are missing the chance. At the present moment, this is the position. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement strictly on the basis of this Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, there is everything explained. So if people take to it, if people are educated, then things will change in a different way. They'll be happy and they will be peaceful, nice. And above, over and above them, they will have next life very blissful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Yad gatvā na nivarta... These things are all very nicely explained. There is eternal life. There is another nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. This is material nature, but there is another, spiritual nature. There everything is permanent. Here everything is non-permanent. Just like my body, your body. It is now getting older. And it will vanquish. This body will be finished. It will never come again back. Never come. This exactly type of this body you'll never get. So we have to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. It is exemplified just like we change our shirt and coat and take another set, similarly, this gross body, material gross body, five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky, and then mind, intelligence, ego, subtle body, within that subtle body the soul is there, and after annihilation of this gross body, the subtle body takes to another gross body. The nature is going on like that. And we are wandering in different species of life, in different planets. But our real purpose is God-realization. That we are missing. That chance is in the human form of life. So if people are not educated to this goal of life, that is not helping the country or the society or the human beings. If we simply engage them in the activities of animal life-how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, and how to defend, no more-then it is simply advancement of animal civilization. But those who are thinking good for all humanity, they should note this defect, that simply giving him nice food, nice shelter, nice sex facilities and nice defense, his problem of life is not solved. He should be given enlightenment about God consciousness. And if he is educated in that way, if he, by next life, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. This education is lacking. So we are trying in our small endeavor. But if leading personalities like you of the society, they try to understand this philosophy scientifically, critically, and take it seriously, they can, there will be great benefit for the human society. The program we have got, but we are not leading personalities. You are all leading personalities. At least in England. Lord... This group, House of Lords is there. It was always there. In previous days also. They were called amātyas. All leading men of the society, they used to give advice to the king. And brāhmaṇas also. I think the knighthood means that. What is the meaning of this knighthood? Eh? Personal advisors to the king? Lord Brockway: Not necessarily to the king. It's a recognition of some service to society, but it doesn't mean any close association with the monarch. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. But knight means the associates of the monarch, is it not the meaning? Śyāmasundara: No. It's more like an award, I think, given to someone who has done service. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. This is recognition. But this "knight," this very word, means "associates of the monarch?" Is that...? No. Lord Brockway: I don't think so. It may have done in its original form... Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: ...when the number of knights were much less than they are today. Prabhupāda: I see. Lord Brockway: But there'll be too many today to be associates. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Now it has come to another platform. So anyway, the knights, they are respectable gentlemen of the society, leading men of the society. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for enlightening people to the right standard of understanding the goal of life. Because after this life, after this body is annihilated, we do not know what kind of body we are getting next. We must prepare. Just like you are elevated to the position of lordship. So you had to prepare yourself. Not that this lordship is offered to anyone and everyone. One who is qualified, he is offered this position. Similarly, we should know how we are becoming qualified for the next life. But that education is lacking. There is no such education. In the university or anywhere, nobody thinks, "What we are going to become next life?" But we should be prepared. If, after becoming Prime Minister in this life, or President, like Mr. Nixon, and again, by his activities, he's going to be another animal, oh, that is not very successful proposal. But there is such chance. Because after death, after giving up this body, we are completely under the grip of material nature. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the whole problem is how to get out of the control of material nature. That is also mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: So this thing we are teaching, how to get out of the control of the three modes of material nature, to put him into the transcendental platform. That is the success of life. And this chance is obtainable in the human form of life. If he misses this chance, again he becomes, suppose, a tree, or a cat, or a dog... There is every chance. Because it is under the control of material nature; according to my work and mentality, I'll get another body. Lord Brockway: Yes, there are... There are many things I'd like to say, many questions... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Lord Brockway: ...I would like to ask. I do not belong to any church. I'm attracted to eastern religions and the Hindu religion because they are pantheist, they have a sense of belonging to everyone and everything in all time, and because of that spiritual feeling, service to all. And I find that better than church theology because church theology is so often thinking entirely of personal salvation rather than service to all. And for those reasons I'm attracted to eastern religions. I think the second comment I would make is this, that you have said that if the world is to move towards brotherhood it must be by a recognition of the fatherhood of God, and that all men are the sons of God. Prabhupāda: Not only men, all living entities. Lord Brockway: Oh, yes, I mean men in the human aspect. Men and women are the sons and daughters, the children of God. I would say two things about that, that I think that those who sincerely have that conviction can be inspired to serve the coming of the brotherhood of mankind, but in experience I would not limit it to those who have that experience. And I find in life that many people who do not have religious convictions at all have a humanist conception which leads them to be very active for peace in the world, a human brotherhood, compassion, and all those characteristics which you have described as the capacities of those who share your religion. And in life they will express that even if they have the deeper recognition which you have described. I think the third thing that I would say about what you have said is this: it may be, I do not know, that there is a form of life after death. I don't know. I think if there is, the best preparation for it is service to one's fellow human beings in our present life. Prabhupāda: Yes, but one thing is... Lord Brockway: Yes? Prabhupāda: ...that whatever service you render, because this world is of three qualities, the service will be, of course, of three qualities: goodness, passion, and ignorance. These are described there. Lord Brockway: Yes, I listened with a very great interest and almost complete agreement... Prabhupāda: Yes. So... Lord Brockway: ...to what has been read. *Prabhupāda: ...what kind of service we shall give? I can give you one example. I have seen it practically, that in Calcutta one neighbor, neighboring gentleman, he is (has) a daughter*-in-law, he (she) was beating her young son. So I inquired, "Why that daughter-in-law...?" Because her father-in-law was of my age, little older. "So why daughter-in-law is punishing her son? What is the fault?" Naturally, young, a small child. So the report came that the, one of the child, one of the boy, was suffering from typhoid, fever, and another boy stole from the kitchen some parāṭā and gave him to eat. And when the mother came into knowledge, she was punishing, that "Why you have given this parāṭā?" Because in typhoid, no solid food is taken. So he cannot... But the suffering child was thinking that "Mother is not giving me food." So he requested his younger brother, "You give me some food." So he does not know. He has given the food. But the result is that he is being punished. So without knowing how to give service, sometimes we may be punished. What kind of service we shall give? (indistinct) example. So there are three kinds of services: goodness, passion, and ignorance. If we... Lord Brockway: Goodness,...? Śyāmasundara: Passion. Pradyumna: Passion. Prabhupāda: Passion, yes. Śyāmasundara: Ignorance. *Prabhupāda: And ignorance. If we give service in ignorance, without knowing what is what, that kind of service may lead us to become punished. So we must know what kind of service we shall give. So real suffering of the society, human society, or any society you take, real suffering is, because the living entity has forgotten God, so he is being punished in different way by the material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So many ways. But everyone is being punished. At least, the three kinds... Why three kinds? That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā, that this is also punishment, repetition of birth and death. This is also punishment. Because we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. We are spirit soul, we are eternal. So our, this constant change of body, birth and death, that is also punishment. Because nobody wants to die. Because he is eternal. How he'll like to die? He wants to keep his eternal position, but he, because he's criminal... Just like one man is condemned to die, murderer. So he has to die. But he wants to protect himself, placing himself in the court, "How to save? How to save?" So that is our natural tendency, that we do not want to die. Why? Because we are eternal. We have got the prerogative. So if... Anyone does not want to die. Anyone does not want to take birth even. Now we have forgotten. Otherwise, in the womb of the mother, everyone knows that we are kept in such a way, in a packed, compact water bag, without any facility to move, not only for one day, two day, but ten months. Medical science knows, everyone knows. And at that time there are worms in the womb of the mother. They're taking the advantage, delicate skin. They also bite. And he cannot make any protest. He moves sometimes. The child moves. These are the sufferings. But we do not take care. If I have to take birth again, then I have to go, again enter into the womb of the mother, and, to develop my body and in such precarious condition, the body will develop. So there is suffering. There is suffering of birth, and at the time of death there is suffering. And between birth and death, there is duration of life, there is disease, there is old age, and what to speak of other sufferings. That we may not mention. But at least these four sufferings are there. Therefore the best service is to save him from this suffering. That is the service. Lord Brockway: Yes, two things. First, when I speak of service, I don't just mean individual goodness to others. I think the service to the world today means an understanding of the causes of war, of the causes of poverty. It means an intellectual analysis and seeking to end what are the causes of war and poverty and suffering and crime. And it isn't only individual goodness. It's a combination of a desire, which is good, with a knowledge of how to achieve it. That would be the first thing that I would say. And the second thing I would say is this, and this may surprise you. I would quite welcome death. I've no fear of it at all. Prabhupāda: Because you are pure. Lord Brockway: I, uh... (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: You are little advanced. Lord Brockway: I would not want death through suffering. I should love to go to sleep and die. When I have an operation, I would like to die under the anaesthetic. It would be quite beautiful. And I say that, though I have no picture in my mind at all of what would happen after death or if anything happens. I love the description which was given by my friend Bertrand Russell, that life is like being born in a spring on the hillside, and the stream becoming a river... [break] Prabhupāda: ...so many tossings. That is the problem of life. It is not that it begins and goes. Going to the end, oh, we have to face so many tossings. That is the problem of life. Lord Brockway: Yes, and I acknowledge I don't know. And I am personally satisfied with trying to do what I can while I'm living in this life for the betterment of mankind. And I believe that's the best preparation for any future life, if there is a future life. Prabhupāda: Well, there is future life, undoubtedly. It is not the question... Just like you say, you remember your childhood days. You were playing with Indian children in Berampur. Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that body is no longer there; your childhood body, that is not existing. Now you are existing in a different body. So you were existing, that's a fact. Because you remember. But that body's not existing. Similarly, when this body will not exist, you'll exist. This is natural conclusion. Your, that childhood body is no longer existing. Your youthhood body is no longer existing. That's a fact. And it is also a fact that you had such and such body. Therefore you, as the soul, you are permanent, even changing so many types of bodies. Similarly, the conclusion should be when you give up this body, you'll be in another body. Lord Brockway: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ. Find out this. *Pradyumna: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: Yes. This is understanding of the immortality of the soul. Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: Common, common reasoning. Lord Brockway: What you've said has impressed me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: I wouldn't say it has convinced me one has to think... *Prabhupāda: No... Yes, one has to think, one has to consider. But this is the fact, that I have changed so many bodies, I remember them, but the bodies are not existing, I am existing. This is very simple philosophy. And it is stated, confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā, and it is accepted by all the ācāryas, learned scholars. So there is change of body or transferring from one body to another. That's a fact. Under the circumstances, we should consider what kind of body will be nice next. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Lord Brockway: I think the only thing I'd say is this, that whilst the body that you have and I have is different from the body, the material body, when we were a child, it has been a continuous transformation. It hasn't been the ending of one body and the beginning of another. And in the process of change, a, an existence is carried on. It isn't like death, which means that at that point your personality becomes separated from your physical body suddenly, like that. It is different. *Prabhupāda: No. We become separated from the physical body, but we remain in the astral body, or subtle body, mind, intelligence... mind, intelligence and ego. That mind, material mind, material intelligence, you give up when you actually remain in your spiritual body. So this is also a great science. But unfortunately, there is no discussion on this point in any university of the world. But this is a science. So actual human civilization means they should study, they should inquire about this science and be well conversant. And that is the human... Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Therefore in the Vedānta*-sūtra it is said that human beings should be interested to this science first. Because animals cannot inquire about this science. The animals, they are simply interested how to eat. So similarly, if a man also simply interested in economic development which means how to eat, how to sleep... That is also there in the animal kingdom. They are trying in their own way. But they have no problem. We have created problem. In the morning, we are thinking, "How to get such and such thing?" But a bird, beast, he has no such anxiety. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that you cannot get more or less. That is already destined. So don't spoil your time in getting more. Because... The example is given that nobody wants unhappiness, or some disaster. But the disaster comes, unhappiness comes. We have experience in our life. Nobody tries for that: "Let disaster come upon me. Let there be fire in my house." No. But the fire takes place. So similarly, because you are destined to some unhappiness and happiness, that will come, either happiness or unhappiness. You don't bother for that. There is already program, according to the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. You save your time. You simply try how to get out of this dangerous position of repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. That should be your endeavor. Lord Brockway: I've listened, and I think I understand. And one has to think about it. Prabhupāda: So my only appeal is that those who are leading men... Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ... Find this verse. Pradyumna: "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps, and whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore we are trying to make men like you interested. (Prabhupāda laughs) Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes and no. I've lived in public life for sixty years. I've been in Parliament. I'm now in the House of Lords. But I don't regard myself as a great man in any sense at all. Prabhupāda: No, no. Of course, there are degrees, but... Lord Brockway: And I've never wanted to be in a gov... Prabhupāda: No great man wants to become great. But because he's great, God helps him to become great. Lord Brockway: Yes. Well, what I was saying is I've never wanted to be in a government. I've never wanted to have power. I've had certain ideals that I wanted to serve, and just prepared to serve them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: ...wherever it led. Prabhupāda: That every human being can do. Lord Brockway: But as I see so many men and women who are regarded as ordinary men and women, and their heroism in life, their sacrifice in life, their service in life, makes me small compared with them, even if they are not known, and even if they are not thought to be great. And so I don't think to be great at all. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No big man thinks like that. He thinks always small. Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So that is natu... That is good. Big, big man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was lear... "I am fool number one." And the author of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, he says that "I am lower than the, a worm in the stool." So this is good attitude. Nobody... Sir Isaac Newton also used to say that "What knowledge I have got. I have simply collected..." They're... Every, every big man thinks like that. That is good attitude. But there is comparative study, that "Here is a big man, here is a common man." So our proposition is that it is a great science, great philosophy. So western countries, they are intelligent, especially the Britain, British people. They had very good opportunity. Still they have got opportunity. So my request is that let us study this philosophy and science and if possible introduce it in the human society. That is our proposal. Śyāmasundara: I think Lord Brockway was saying that his ideal is that, at present moment, that men of the world try to make an understanding, intellectual understanding of the problems and try to make an intellectual solution... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ...philosophical, conscious... Prabhupāda: So here is the opportunity. Here is the opportunity. Śyāmasundara: ...consciousness, become conscious, conscious of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ...the problem. Prabhupāda: We can, we can discuss on higher intellectual platform this philosophy. It is a science. Therefore we invite the best intelligent person to take part in it. Then other people will follow. That is our proposal. Śyāmasundara: Interchange of ideas. Lord Brockway: Well, I don't want to keep you. Prabhupāda: No, it is very nice... Lord Brockway: It has been very, very kind of you. Prabhupāda: ...to associate with you. Lord Brockway: And, uh... Śyāmasundara: She's bringing some dinner for you. Just, just coming. Lord Brockway: Yes. Śyāmasundara: One minute. Prabhupāda: Give him this garland. I forgot to give the garland. Lord Brockway: (laughs) As in, as in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: Very often. Śyāmasundara: Mālatī gave him a rose, but... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Lord Brockway: These are very beautiful. Prabhupāda: This is produced in our garden. Lord Brockway: Yes. Very, very beautiful. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we can simply study the beautiful flower, and we can come to God consciousness. How it is made, so beautiful, unless there is brain? And what is that brain? Then you come to God. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Para, the Supreme, has got so nice brain that things are happening as if natural. But no, the brain is acting, brain is acting. But His energy and brain is so nice that He hasn't got to do it personally. As soon as He desires, immediately the energy works. Just like nowadays electronic. So simply by pushing one bud, a button, thousands of business is done immediately. So if it is materially possible, just we have to think how much it is great and possible by spiritual energy. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. These are the Vedic description. God hasn't got to do anything with His hands. Just like here also. A big man, he has got secretaries, officers. He simply directs, "Do this," everything is done. Similarly, the Supreme Lord, how much energy He has got, and spiritual energy, that as soon as He desires something, immediately it is done. But it is done by employing energy. Not that it has come for nothing. No. This flower, it grows. There is energy. First of all, it was bud. But we cannot see how it is growing. But the act, action is going on. Therefore it is called svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. There is knowledge, there is brain, there is activity. Everything is there. But it is so quick and subtle, we cannot see. We say it is nat..., it has grown naturally. No. There is brain. How nicely it is done. Whatever color is suitable, it is there. So without color, without that brush, without that brain, without that energy, how it has come? How we can think of? Even if you make an artificial flower, oh, you have to take so many colors, you have to take brush, you have to apply your brain. So it has no brain behind? Simply explaining "nature." What is that nature? The nature is the brain of Kṛṣṇa. So those who can study, they can study even from this flower what is the greatness of God. This is God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything he sees the hand of God. That is God consciousness. And when a man becomes God conscious, then he's qualified with all good qualities. That is God consciousness. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If you train a person to become God conscious, then all the good qualities automatically becomes manifest in him. So why not try this? Make a school simply to make people God conscious. You'll find nice people are coming. All good character. And you can take any service from them, good service. This should be attempted. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any good qualities. Just like President Nixon. He's exalted. He is occupying such exalted position, but public is criticizing like anything. Hm? And he's still not leaving that post. Unless he's forced. So harāv abhaktasya... Is that a very good quality? He's publicly elected president. If public (is) accusing him in so many ways, he should have (said), "All right, if you don't like, I resign." But no. So where is the good quality? There is no good quality. Because he has no sense of God consciousness. So without sense of God consciousness, nobody can possess any good quality. That is impossible. And a small man, like our students, because he's God conscious, you'll find so many good qualities in them in comparison to others. So these are the version of the Vedas. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā. One who has become a devotee of the Supreme Lord, all the good qualities will be manifest in him. So we want good quality men. So the one process*-to make him God conscious. He'll become the best person in the society. And if the society is composed of the nice person, then where is the war, where is the strife, where is the competition, where is the...? Nothing. Everything will be solved. So all the problems will be solved simply making the people God conscious. If not all, a section will do that. Sinless, God conscious persons, their examples will be followed, and society will change. Where is prasādam? Devotee: Right here. Prabhupāda: Bring it. Śyāmasundara: I was telling Prabhupāda about our visit to the House of Lords that day... Lord Brockway: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ...when you allowed us into the chamber. Lord Brockway: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And how, the highly civilized manner in which discussion was going on, problems were being solved, very gentlemanly, with high thinking... Lord Brockway: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ...and that actually, if all countries of the world had House of Lords, and there were pious men in the House of Lords of all countries, easily the world would solve all of its problems. Lord Brockway: Not easily. Not easily. And you have a House of Lords which is not democratic. Many of its members... Prabhupāda: No, democracy we don't approve. Lord Brockway: We don't...? Śyāmasundara: Approve. Lord Brockway: Hm? Śyāmasundara: Approve. Lord Brockway: Of what? Śyāmasundara: Democracy we don't approve. Lord Brockway: Oh, I approve of it very, very strongly. Very strongly. It must be... It must be the basis of all, of all good. *Prabhupāda: No, basis... Now, suppose if a people in general, they are not advanced, by their votes, somebody is elected, he may not be also advanced. That is the defect of democracy. Mass of people, they are not advanced. So simply by their vote, if somebody is elected, then they will have to repent. Just like Nixon. He's elected, but these people are again decrying him, that "No, you are not good." So why do you, did you elect him? You elect, and again you reject. That is the defect of democracy. that people are not advanced. They can commit mistake, elect somebody wrong. And then they will lament. This is the defect. But monarchy, as it was approved by the Vedic culture, the monarchy, if the king is first*-class, God conscious... A king should be like that. That is the ideal king. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā: rājarṣi. The king should be just like saintly person, although he's king. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. And just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He was rājarṣi. All the kings in those days, they were trained up in such a way that they were saintly persons, although they were the king. Not debauch. So one person, if he's authorized... Just like the communists, they are thinking of dictatorship. This is also another kind of dictatorship. But if the dictator, or the king, is a perfect man, then his dictatorship or royal power is quite... But that, that is not possible at the present moment. But at the present moment, the democracy is also not perfect. Because the mass of people, they have no perfect knowledge. By sentiment. So it may be they're electing a wrong person. That is the defect of democracy. Lord Brockway: No, I'm not saying that democracy as we have it is perfect. I am saying that a people will advance only as it is a reflection of the progress of the people themselves, and that they, and that they cannot be changed by an external pressure... Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Lord Brockway: ...which is dictatorship. And even... Prabhupāda: No, dictatorship, I told you... Lord Brockway: And even a, a good dictatorship is a bad thing. I would rather have... Prabhupāda: No, how good dictatorship can be a bad thing? *Lord Brockway: I would rather have people make mistakes when they had self*-government than if you had a dictatorship which didn't make mistakes and imposed it's own... Prabhupāda: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view. Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the... Prabhupāda: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he'll manage, he'll manage. But if he's not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn't matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man. Lord Brockway: Now, in taking your view that all men and women are the children of God, they've got God within them, then the advance of mankind must be by giving the opportunity of God in all men and women. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: To come to fulfillment. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Lord Brockway: And at the present time you haven't got those conditions. Because of inequalities, because of poverty, because of hunger, because of war, you haven't got those conditions. Prabhupāda: No, I... Lord Brockway: And therefore, therefore, it is not only the goodness of an individual which you want. You want, combined with the goodness of an individual, of an understanding of the causes... Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: ...which lead to hunger and poverty and war. Prabhupāda: That... Lord Brockway: It's only when you have those two things together... Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got... Lord Brockway: ...that you can bring about a solution. Prabhupāda: Because people are godless at the present moment, they're suffering. Lord Brockway: It's not only because of that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Lord Brockway: It's not only... Prabhupāda: That is the only cause. Lord Brockway: No..., Prabhupāda: That we can, that we can give very scientific evidence. That is the only cause. Lord Brockway: No, it's not the only cause. Prabhupāda: No, that we have to understand. Lord Brockway: No, please. I know, I know of people who are very God conscious, beautiful people, kind in all their human relations, but they haven't got a beginning of an understanding of how one can bring brotherhood and peace to the world. Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Then... Lord Brockway: And therefore, in addition to God consciousness, you must have understanding, knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes, that understanding, that required. So that is needed. People have no opportunity to understand. Just like if you speak... Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...they'll talk of universal brotherhood, but they'll send the poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Lord Brockway: They...? Prabhupāda: To the slaughterhouse. Śyāmasundara: Animals. Prabhupāda: Animals. Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: That means they have no right understanding of universal brotherhood. Lord Brockway: No. With that I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the use of talking of universal brotherhood when you actually do not treat like that? Lord Brockway: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that is due to his lack of God consciousness. He'll talk very high words, but practically he cannot do it. Śyāmasundara: No information. Prabhupāda: Yes, no information. Just like the commu... Even in communist country. They, they are thinking that national, everything should be national. So what is the meaning of national? Means any living entity born in that country is national. So why the poor animals are not nationals? That is, means lack of God consciousness. He does not know. He thinks simply human being national. Lord Brockway: Oh, I agree. I'm a vegetarian. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this is all due to lack of God consciousness. Therefore the only remedy is to make people God conscious, thoroughly, perfectly. Then everything will be all right. Lord Brockway: That I don't accept. God consciousness plus understanding. Prabhupāda: Now, God conscious means understanding. Without understanding, how there can be God consciousness? Lord Brockway: And you, you may easily have a person who is very God conscious, beautiful in their own lives, beautiful to all the group around them, who have no understanding of the problems of the world at all. *Prabhupāda: That is not perfect God conscious. That is partial. Perfect consciousness means full understanding also. That is perfect God consciousness. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is the Vedic injunction. If you understand only God, then you understand everything. But if he does not understand everything rightly, that means he's not fully understanding God. This is the... If, as you say, that a man is fully God conscious, but he cannot do this, cannot do that, that means his understanding of God consciousness is still lacking. It is not full understanding. A full understanding of God consciousness means he's a perfect man. He's a perfect man. He'll never commit anything mistake. Because he's guided. Teṣām... What is that? Bhajatāṁ prīti*-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam... Find out. A God conscious person is getting direct instruction from God. How it can be defective? It cannot be. Practical. But if one is defective, he's not yet fully God conscious. *Devotee: Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ... [Bg. 10.10]. Prabhupāda: Ah! Pradyumna: Ananyāś cintayanto māṁ ye janāḥ paryupāsate... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. Pradyumna: Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktā...? *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-... That is Tenth Chapter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: So if he gets understanding from God, how there can be any defect? If he's not getting direct understanding from God, that means he's still imperfect. Mālatī: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Pradyumna: Need some table. Devotee: I have some kind of table. Śyāmasundara: Can we use this table? Devotee: I have some... (Sounds of setting up prasādam?) Prabhupāda: Just like... Lord Brockway: Thank you very much. Mālatī: Thank you for waiting. I'm sorry it's a little late. Prabhupāda: This is... These European and American girls, they have learned to prepare... (some background noise) Oh, you have prepared for me? No, I don't want any more. Śyāmasundara;: No, this table is too small. Prabhupāda: Yes. (devotees talking as they set up tables for prasādam) Oh, two tables? That's all right. That's nice. Lord Brockway: Splendid. Thank you very much. Now, is it your custom to say some kind of grace? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already offered to the Deity. Lord Brockway: Before you eat? Prabhupāda: Yes, we say, Lord Brockway: Thank you. Śyāmasundara: Shall I move this closer? Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, you have made so nice preparations. Lord Brockway: And you do not eat yet? Śyāmasundara: No, they're bringing. (sounds of eating) Prabhupāda: She has prepared? Śyāmasundara: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Hmm. [Break] Śyāmasundara: Would you like to wash your hands? Lord Brockway: Yes, thank you. Haṁsadūta: Such a simple point. If a cow is living by God's grass... Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He said only grass. It doesn't cost anything. Prabhupāda: Grass is grown by God, and she is eating. What is your problem? *Haṁsadūta: Their argument is that there'll be over*-population. *Prabhupāda: Now, you kick them on their face. Oh, what is this? This is not sweet*-rice. It is some...? Haṁsadūta: Cuddy. Prabhupāda: Cuddy, cuddy. Haṁsadūta: They always argue that "In India they should kill the cows and eat them, and then they would not starve" because they're so foolish. Prabhupāda: You have got your natural teeth? Your teeth? Lord Brockway: No, not natural. Prabhupāda: Not natural. Lord Brockway: No, no. I used to play rugby football. Prabhupāda: Oh. Lord Brockway: And my teeth got kicked out of my mouth. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: He was a great athlete when he was young, a famous athlete. Prabhupāda: Oh. Lord Brockway: And I was an athlete when I was a vegetarian. I proved that one could be a vegetarian and one could be an athlete. Swimming, running, everything. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are keeping your health very nice. In younger days, you were sportsman. Śyāmasundara: You eat entirely everything. (laughs) Lord Brockway: You have done very well. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: You told Mālatī when you first came that you have come to London to eat. 'Cause in India you were not eating very much. Lord Brockway: No? Prabhupāda: Not at all. Due to excessive heat, I could not eat. Therefore I came here. Yes. Lord Brockway: I have had a big meal tonight. Prabhupāda: A big meal? Lord Brockway: And I do not eat very much usually. Prabhupāda: I also do not eat, but when there is palatable, I eat. (laughs) (to devotee) Sit down. (Prabhupāda goes to wash) Lord Brockway: Now listen, I do not wish to detain him long. Śyāmasundara: All right, whenever you wish to go, you just tell me. Lord Brockway: Yes, we will, we will go soon. *Śyāmasundara: All right, maybe in ten minutes, eight*-thirty, seven-thirty? Lord Brockway: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, he likes to speak. He likes to speak with learned men and discuss things. Lord Brockway: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Exchange of ideas is always healthy. So it's... Lord Brockway: Oh, it's very valuable. Śyāmasundara: It's just like what you were saying. Men get together and try to (have) an intellectual understanding of the problems, then it's much easier. That's what I..., why I was saying in the House of Lords we observed that day, a very, just like what you're talking about, men exchanging ideas and compromising, and finding the... Lord Brockway: Oh well, our discussions are better than the discussions in the House of Commons because we're not so bitter, we're not so partisan. And many of them speak with great knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's what impressed us. In one sense, this House of Lords preserves your cultural advantages. Lord Brockway: Yes, a little. I would make it into a political British association, just as the British Association is gathering of all the scientists. I would have the House of Lords gathering of people who are representative of creative thought in all spheres, from all spheres. Śyāmasundara: Yes, great thinkers from all different parts of society. Lord Brockway: Yes. Then I think it could be a real gathering. Śyāmasundara: Yes. We noticed that day in the House of Lords that great, such great thinkers were discussing topics. Prabhupāda: Yes, selected persons. Lord Brockway: What was the subject of discussion that day? Śyāmasundara: Well, they were discussing something in the airport, and... Lord Brockway: Oh, MacLynne (?) airport? Śyāmasundara: ...Pakistan and Bangladesh and two or three other points. Lord Brockway: Yes. Was I speaking? Śyāmasundara: No, you spoke just before... When we arrived, you were speaking. You had addressed one question... Lord Brockway: I was speaking; then you arrived. Yes. Śyāmasundara: And at the end of the discussion, they take a vote: those who are content and those who are not content. Lord Brockway: That's right. But I often say that when I do not know, what we are discussing, the answers, then I vote with my party. When I do know, then I often vote against my party. Do you understand what I said? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Maybe you could tell him about that Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. I think he'll not like that. Śyāmasundara: There was one famous politician from India five hundred years ago, or...? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. About three thousand years ago. Śyāmasundara: Oh, three thousand years ago. Lord Brockway: Three thousand years ago! Śyāmasundara: He's written a book of... Prabhupāda: During the time of Candragupta. Before Mohammedan or British rule. Long ago. Śyāmasundara: He wrote a book of political wisdom, how to run on the state. *Prabhupāda: According to his opinion, viśvāso naiva... (someone knocks on the door) Yes? Come on. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca. He's giving warning that "Never trust woman and politician." (laughs) Lord Brockway: A great deal of truth in that. (laughter) Well, Your Divine Grace, I must be going. Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you for your coming here. Lord Brockway: It has been a great privilege to meet you. Prabhupāda: We enjoyed your company, talked very nicely. Sometimes you come with your wife. Lord Brockway: I would have liked that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Brockway: But she didn't feel able to come tonight. Prabhupāda: No, no. Any other day. Śyāmasundara: Sunday afternoon or something. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: More time. Lord Brockway: Don't trouble to get up. Prabhupāda: No, no. I... Lord Brockway: And thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Prabhupāda: You're so kind. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Take him to the car. Go. *Lord Brockway: And good*-bye, all. (end) Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...how you can reject one and accept another. It must be properly utilized. Reporter: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if one has got money, he cannot... He can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good. Reporter: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā, it is used for... Just like in Manu*-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā, to get him a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who's committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, in his next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā..., ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good. Reporter: Yes. When there is right hiṁsā, then it becomes a right action. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And therefore it is no more hiṁsā. But when the devilish... Prabhupāda: And actually it is not hiṁsā. Reporter: Actually it is not hiṁsā, exactly, but... Prabhupāda: Just like father gives a slap. Reporter: Yeah, it is not hiṁsā. Prabhupāda: It is not hiṁsā. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, the hiṁsā, so*-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, that is not hiṁsā. That is love. Reporter: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Then it is hiṁsā. Reporter: Yeah. Then it is hiṁsā. And I am against that hiṁsā which is not directed by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right. Reporter: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are all living in, nuclear age where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa is... Prabhupāda: That is hiṁsā. Reporter: That is hiṁsā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean... Prabhupāda: That you have understood. That is my point. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That so*-called hiṁsā, when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā. Reporter: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's... Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you. That when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā. It is doing good to him. Reporter: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No... King is... King means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara*-devatā. The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Reporter: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful. Reporter: But today's kings... Prabhupāda: Today's no... I'm speaking... Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa. Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Isn't it? Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa, he must act as brāhmaṇa. If one is claiming to be kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brāhmaṇa, what are the qualifications of kṣatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad*-gītā. Reporter: Yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya(?). Sva*-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating. Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly. Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as... Reporter: Vaiśyas. Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see. Reporter: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy. Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following that duty... Prabhupāda: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad. (desires woman guest to sit comfortably) Devotee: Would you like a chair? Woman guest: No, it's okay. *Reporter: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva*-dharma, their true self... Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment, any moment. Reporter: Hm? Prabhupāda: Any moment. Reporter: Yeah. But then what is the action for the... Practical action, practical... *Prabhupāda: Practical action... If you give up... If a brāhmaṇa gives up sva*-dharma, then it becomes a varṇa-saṅkara. Reporter: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Kula*-dharma, what is that in the Bhagavad-gītā? Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. So they produce varṇa-saṅkara. If one does not follow the jāti-dharma, the kula-dharma, then he comes to the category of varṇa-saṅkara. Saṅkaro narakāyaiva. So when... A person born in brāhmaṇa family not acting as a brāhmaṇa, he's varṇa-saṅkara. So when there are number of people from the varṇa-saṅkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakāyaiva. Śaṅkaro narakāyaiva. What is that? Read that. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jāti-dharma, and creating varṇa-saṅkara... Varṇa-saṅkara, just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra. So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna. So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra. So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra? Nobody. Reporter: (laughs) Nobody. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra. No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdra, or less than śūdra. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Pañcavān.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali*-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle. You know better than me. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī... [Bg. 18.65]. The scholars say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. The leaders... Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti-dharma, kula-dharma. And they have created varṇa-saṅkara. *Reporter: Yes. Everybody is varṇa*-saṅkara. Prabhupāda: Therefore the only remedy is Reporter: Hm. But what...? Prabhupāda: It is most scientific. *Reporter: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti*-yoga. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Reporter: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma*-yoga, the action, to transform the society, bring back into the... *Prabhupāda: Yes, the yoga in its preliminary stage is karma*-yoga. Yoga, yoga means connecting. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So karma, when you... Reporter: Yoga karma sukhośanām. (?) Prabhupāda: Akarma sukhośanām. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are addicted to karma. Reporter: Hm. *Prabhupāda: So if you bring bhakti, karma*-miśra-bhakti, that is called karma-yoga. Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jñāna. When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jñāna-miśra-bhakti or jñāna-yoga. So, this things are there. Just like karma-yoga. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27]. This is karma-yoga. You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Kṛṣṇa says yat karoṣi, never mind, even if you are a thief. Your business is stealing-steal. Yat karoṣi means that includes everything. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu. Reporter: Mā phaleṣu. *Prabhupāda: This is karma*-yoga-when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Kṛṣṇa, that is karma-yoga. Reporter: Hm. Yeah, but karmaṇy evādhikāras te... Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: This is the, the point that... Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to work. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: See? Reporter: But... So... If our responsibility is to act without attachment for the result, I accept, I agree with it. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says that purottama manaḥ (?). The result must be there. Reporter: Yes. But that should be... Prabhupāda: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot... Reporter: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Therefore you must be giving to someone, to who is the perfect person who can take it. That is Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Hm. Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So yat karoṣi, that is the... Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it's bhakti*-yoga, karma-yoga, whatever you... Reporter: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: But Kṛṣṇa is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight? Prabhupāda: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kurukṣetra. Reporter: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our... Devotee: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa's representative will tell you. Kṛṣṇa is not there, but Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. So you have to ask the Kṛṣṇa's representative. Reporter: So that's why I have come to you... Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: ...to ask you. Prabhupāda: If you think we are representative of Kṛṣṇa, that is good. (everyone laughs) Reporter: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: They're thinking, "And to become Kṛṣṇa's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult. Reporter: It is not difficult. Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa... Who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, that Reporter: No. *Prabhupāda: He says that "By My order, you become a guru." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ājñāya, order?" That yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]': "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken." That's all. What is the difficulty? If we speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, exactly... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, without my interpretation, no nonsense. No. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that here is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. There is no more superior person or authority than Kṛṣṇa. So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. We are saying the same thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Reporter: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: "Don't bother with any other things." Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we are teaching them, that always think of Kṛṣṇa, always become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, always offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. So what is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Kṛṣṇa's representative. Who is representative? What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's book Bhagavad-gītā and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. He speaks his own words of the authority of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad*-gītā? How much, aḥ, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy-speak. Why you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā? But that is going on. They take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and speak their all nonsense things. They're not representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's representative is he who exactly speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Kṛṣṇa's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Kṛṣṇa. *Reporter: Hm. No, but... Can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Kṛṣṇa is speaking in a context of a clear defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us. Prabhupāda: Why not available? Reporter: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, dharma means occupation. Dharma is not translated as religion. Reporter: No, no. Prabhupāda: This is wrong translation. Dharma means occupation. Reporter: Activity? Prabhupāda: Activity, occupation. Reporter: All activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it..." *Reporter: But He's saying sarva*-dharmān parityajya... [Bg. 18.66]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Reporter: ...not sarva*-karmān parityajya. Prabhupāda: Dharmān means karmān. Dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa... Reporter: But activity... *Prabhupāda: (indistinct)*-just a minute-how he can understand the brahma? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Reporter: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So this dharma, brāhmaṇa*-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brāhmaṇa, he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya-karma svabhāva-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa, he's dharma. Reporter: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te... Prabhupāda: Karmaṇi means that you are as you are... Reporter: No, no (indistinct) evādhikāras te. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway... Reporter: 'Cause activity... *Prabhupāda: Dharma means karma. Dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma*-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is karma. So brāhmaṇa's activity means brāhmaṇa. So that activity is karma. Ah? Yajana yājana paṭhana pāṭhana dāna pratigraha, these are brāhmaṇas. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the kṣatriya's karma. These the brāhmaṇa's karma. These are the, eh, vaiśya's karma. These are the śūdra's karma. So sva*-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa. Reporter: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya, you have to act as a kṣatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering maṅgala-ārati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then taking the class and taking prasādam, then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana, to distributing books. All day, twenty*-four hours karma. So therefore outsiders, they can not understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing, what kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti. They think bhakti means, just like "Close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that. Reporter: Bhakti is the quality... *Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was giving the certificate*-bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity. What is the quality of it. Yes, how you can live without being active? You are living being. That's not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of our activity. That makes one karma-yogī, jñāna-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing. Reporter: Hm. Can I ask you another... *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma*-miśra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti. Reporter: No, no. Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma. Reporter: There's no karma. Prabhupāda: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally... Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is very high state. But originally... Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma. Prabhupāda: Ah, akarma. Reporter: Sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: No, more than akarma. Reporter: Sannyāsa? *Prabhupāda: More than a... Sannyāsī is akarma, yes. Sannyāsī is also not akarma. Sannyāsa means... That is also described in Bhagavad*-gītā. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ [Bg. 6.1]. That is also karma. Kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī. "It is my duty"-on this principle when one works, he is sannyāsī. He does not work for himself, he works for Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. Kāryam: it is my duty. Kāryam. Karma karot... Karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma. Sa sannyāsī. So how you can say in sannyāsa there is no karma? Karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma? So when the end is Kṛṣṇa, to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Reporter: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma? Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma. Or sometimes akarma means laziness. Reporter: No, no, (laughs), in the sense of *Gītā*. *Prabhupāda: Karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam. So akarma means, that is bhaktyā. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma*-bandhanaḥ. Anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ: when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma, that is karma. And when you act yajñārthe, for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma, that is akarma. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma. Reporter: Hm. Hm. But then why there are three words, karma, vikarma, akarma? There are three. Prabhupāda: That... Vikarma means..., karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra. That is karma. And vikarma means when you violate the injunction of the śāstra. Devotee: Violate. Prabhupāda: Violate. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the śāstra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities. Reporter: Hm. That's the vikarma. *Prabhupāda: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma. Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. Otherwise, beginning from ant, up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma. Reporter: Hm. Vi... But is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. (?) Prabhupāda: Ah? Reporter: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān? "Vi-" is generally used as to... a sort of bhaktyā.(?) To give the quality of the karma, quality of the action. Like vijñānam, jñānaṁ vijñānam. Karmān vikarmān. So this a little, what is the root of the language? I don't... Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jñānam means theoretical knowledge. And vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña. Yajñād bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajña. Yajñeśa. In the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Reporter: Hm. *Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇāśrama, that is animal society, everything is chaos. (some people talking aside) Reporter: You want to ask anything? Woman: No. Guest: (aside:) (indistinct) ...Kṛṣṇa first, and then you know what to do. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], just to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all. *Reporter: Yes, yes. But what happens that some people have a social dimension, social political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But then it seems to me-I'm just asking*-that we, when we are emphasizing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social political dimension. So how to bring this... Prabhupāda: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Kṛṣṇa did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking? *Reporter: No, no, I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa did not take... I'm just saying that it seems that He sometimes, it seems, that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough..., it is not clear enough-and I'm not saying it's not there but it's not clear enough*-the social political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear. Reporter: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now what we are, Ann and myself, we are publishing a magazine called Researchers. Prabhupāda: Hm. Reporter: And John Temple(?) was here? Devotee: John Temple(?) was here a few days ago, yes. Prabhupāda: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him. Reporter: Yes, he was editor before. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Reporter: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking*-Mahādeva was also in it-but how we can bring this total understanding together? So when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first... Prabhupāda: We are presenting... Reporter: ...they understand the way of communication. Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are asking all these students... When I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs) Reporter: (laughs) Yes. *Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly. Reporter: In order to clear your heart you have to chant. Prabhupāda: That is it. Reporter: Right. Woman: What about meditating? Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation. Woman: What about the other kind? Prabhupāda: When meditation, meditation, dhyāna, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear. Woman: What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them. Devotee: But Kṛṣṇa is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Kṛṣṇa's taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman: Oh, I see. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Kṛṣṇa is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (everyone laughs). Reporter: No conflict. Woman: I am not sure, I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean... *Prabhupāda: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. That's why Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They'll support: this killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that (?). They want to kill. That's all. That is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But if you do not follow, at the same time you say you are not Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated-I've asked so many Christians*-that "Why do you kill?" Christ said "Thou shalt not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretations. That is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shalt not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses? Woman: But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shalt not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it? Reporter: True. *Prabhupāda: Just see Arjuna*-you are talking of Arjuna-before fighting, before killing so many things, he getting clarified. Ah? (Sanskrit) Just see, "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside:) Hm. Read that. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding*-before killing. Not that "We have (indistinct) reason to kill." No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see. This is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church? Although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things. Why? Reporter: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious... Prabhupāda: Life. Reporter: ...experience in life. *Prabhupāda: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how will you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply rubber*-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets? Reporter: Same as you were saying, Nehru was not a brāhmaṇa, but only because he was called brāhmaṇa. So... Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone. Reporter: Everyone. *Prabhupāda: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. Reporter: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says, Reporter: Even the śūdras can... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra. Why śūdra? Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. They become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ. Everything is there in the śāstras. If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras, everything can be remodeled, everything can be good. There is no cause for disappointment. But unfortunately they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya. Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti. One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra, he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham: neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? It is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas. The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya... Reporter: Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. They all accept Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. They accept it. So how can you defy all these ācāryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense. Reporter: But all these ācāryas interpret in different, different ways. Prabhupāda: No. No. Reporter: No? *Prabhupāda: On the principle, they never... Just like Śaṅkarācārya and Rāmānujācārya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments on Bhagavad*-gītā. Śaṅkarācārya, although he is impersonalist, he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt: Nārāyaṇa is beyond this cosmic manifestation; He's transcendental. That means he says He's person. Nārāyaṇa, as soon as Nārāyaṇa, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in the spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy, he started the philosophy, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Reporter: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Prabhupāda: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithyā. Śaṅkarācārya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college, hospital... Never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithyā, then why should we bother all these things? Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So who is following Śaṅkarācārya? And they say that "We are followers of Śaṅkarācārya." And they are engaged. Śaṅkarācārya follower means he must become first of all sannyāsī, then talk anything else. So who is taking, going to do that? Reporter: And all those Śaṅkara Maṭha and Śaṅkarācārya's various places in India, don't live as jagat was mithyā. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, jagan mithyā... We don't say jagan mithyā. Reporter: No. *Prabhupāda: We Vaiṣṇavas, why should I say jagan mithyā? If God is true, what is created by Him, that is also true. Because Kṛṣṇa says bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. Me, "My." So why should I take Kṛṣṇa's things as false? If Kṛṣṇa is true, His things are also true. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That is karma*-yoga, bhakti-yoga. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone in the tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say "No, no, we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot touch this material thing." We don't say that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has connection with Kṛṣṇa, so why shall I call it as material? Parityāga. This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvāmī, Reporter: He who wants liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Mumukṣu. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mumukṣu. So this mumukṣu, they're giving up this material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari*-sambandha. *Reporter: Yes, hari*-sambandha. Prabhupāda: They do not know this art. Reporter: Kṛṣṇa connection, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Now people know only "French Connection," they're forgetting Kṛṣṇa connection. (laughs) Yes, very true. *Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why should I give it up? Because the airplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. Every year I'm wandering all over the world, twice, thrice. Because if you use airplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up? It is mithyā. Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach, very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya. We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk things under the tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree nobody will come to me. (everyone laughs) So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy. Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; *you are coming to the school*-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithyā, why you are coming again to this mithyā platform? Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there. Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required. Reporter: Anāsakta. *Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna*-vairāgya. *Reporter: Hm. The jñāna*-vairāgya. *Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna*-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7]. Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys. Reporter: Quick detachment. Prabhupāda: Ah? Immediate... Reporter: Instant, instant, āśu vairāgya. Prabhupāda: Āśu vairāgya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke, I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: They've kicked out all these things. Practically you can see. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (everyone laughs) This is vairāgya. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they've got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna*-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu. Reporter: Vairāgya, yes. Prabhupāda: Āśu, "very immediate." Reporter: Hm. Instant. Prabhupāda: Instant. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So bhakti*-yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam... [SB 1.2.7]. *Reporter: Is this in the Gītā, in Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: No, in *Bhāgavatam*. Reporter: *Bhāgavatam*, yes. Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up. Reporter: But he was not in power or position. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi, "You have so much respect now, now you have got sva*-rāja, you give up this business, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā, people will hear you." Before starting this movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter. Reporter: But he was praying, he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee. Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation. Reporter: Hm? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that... Reporter: (laughs) Prabhupāda: ...these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya, even up to the point of death. Reporter: Yes, true. Prabhupāda: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Pantha(?)... They stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither did they know that there is necessity of vairāgya. But Vedic philosophy says... All the ācāryas, they're all vairāgīs, either Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they're all sannyāsīs. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All vairāgīs. Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairāgī. Even Lord Buddha, vairāgī. This is required, but where is the vairāgya? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairāgya. This is the first stage, vairāgya, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra [SB 11.2.42]. Reporter: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya [Bg. 18.66]. Reporter: Yes, means vairāgya. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise we are embarrassed with so many dharmas. Social dharma, political dharma, national dharma, international dharma, this dharma, brāhmaṇa*-dharma, śūdra-dharma, so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharma. Reporter: All of them. *Prabhupāda: All give up. This is vairāgya. Jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā [SB 1.2.12]. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. The bhakti-yoga means, jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya there must be. Can you find that verse? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Paś... Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna-vairāgya... Without jñāna-vairāgya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then? Pradyumna: Paśyanty ātmani cātmānam... Prabhupāda: Ah. *Pradyumna: ...bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. *Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. Śruta-gṛhītayā. By hearing from authority. Śruta. Gṛhītayā. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. This is the process. Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā, paśyanty ātmānam ātmani, śruta-gṛhītayā, bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā [SB 1.2.12]. This is the process. Reporter: By devotion, by listening you receive and see the self... Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: ...within the self. Prabhupāda: Yes, within the self. Reporter: Ātmani ātmānam. [break] Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead..." *Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. Never says by jñāna or karma you'll get. Reporter: Only bhakti, yes. Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: "...who is the full*-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings. The karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogis and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute person. And the third-class transcendentalist are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person." Reporter: Who are those three, jñānīs...? Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogis... Reporter: And karm... Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogis... Reporter: And bhaktas. Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalists. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogis and bhaktas, they're transcendentalists. Reporter: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are... Reporter: Why? Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute. Reporter: I see. They're intellectual. Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization. Reporter: Ah. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti. Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence. Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking. Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee. Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī." Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper? Reporter: Researchers. Prabhupāda: Researchers. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20], and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kaniṣṭha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. Reporter: Hm. Hm. It's a very high stage, too, each. Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London? Reporter: I have been on and off for two, three years. Prabhupāda: Ah. Reporter: And I will stay two or three more years. Prabhupāda: So, you are family man? Reporter: Yes, this is my wife. Prabhupāda: You're married here. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Children? Reporter: One child. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Reporter: And we have called our child Mukti. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing, (everyone laughs). Rūpa Gosvāmī says bhukti*-mukti-spṛhā yāvat piśācī hṛdi vartate. Manifested..., that so long the piśācī... Piśācī, you know? Reporter: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti. Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy." Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bhukti. And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī. Reporter: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Ah, piśācī means witch. *Prabhupāda: Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī (etc.) Reporter: "As long as...?" Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti?" Reporter: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti and then you can... Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti, and then bhakti. Just as I explained. Reporter: Ah. *Prabhupāda: So after being mukta. The bhakta is already mukta. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Devotee: Prasādam. *Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate. (Guest and devotees talk in background.) Reporter: (aside:) Please... But calling kṛṣṇārpaṇam, and calling mukti and bhukti piśācī is a rather strong expression. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti. Reporter: Yes, yes, they can. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Reporter: The attachment is mukti, materialistic attachment, and bhukti... [break] I was very impressed with the account, how... Prabhupāda: This will be New Gokula. Reporter: New Gokula. Hm, hm, it's very good. Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā... Pradyumna: New Gayā... Prabhupāda: ...New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical. Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So India cannot be happy being guided by the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ. It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi That "You are..." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times. Reporter: Yes, yes. But that... What Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Hm. *Prabhupāda: But it did not go to his hand*-hands of his secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister." Reporter: (laughs) Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty... Prabhupāda: Hm? Reporter: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved? *Prabhupāda: That, that... Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to... Village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal*-to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal. That "Don't go to the city, town, for so-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food, and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and engage in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly. Reporter: Hm. Hm. I agree. *Prabhupāda: The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principles*-from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that. Devotee: (to guests:) Some kṣīra? Reporter: Oh! Prabhupāda: That's all? Don't get more? Reporter: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They actually, by destroying the Manchester millionaires, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmadabad millionaires. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one rupee per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair. Reporter: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth*-one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale. Reporter: Hm. Hm. Now same thing for thirty rupees. Prabhupāda: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmadabad capitalists. That's all. Reporter: Hm. Yes. Prabhupāda: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire. Reporter: (laughs) Yes. Very true. Prabhupāda: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness. Reporter: Quite true. And therefore, nothing is working. Prabhupāda: No. (pause) Reporter: I'm not going by car, as you said. (everyone laughs) Prabhupāda: Are you not plucking your hairs? Reporter: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair. Devotee: The whole head, you pull your...? Reporter: Whole head, yes. It's an extreme form of a... Devotee: Austerity. Reporter: Ah? Devotee: It's an austerity. Reporter: Yes. And then I came to... I left it, and came to Benares, and... *Prabhupāda: So when you joined this (indistinct*-Sarboddha?) movement? At Benares? Reporter: Yes. I was meet... I met Vinoba Bhave, and... Prabhupāda: He's still living? Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy? *Reporter: His philosophy is... He is a bhak..., a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes, in the village, and not going to the city. This is his principle, on the economy scale. And on the spiritual end, religious, he's a brahma*-vidyā. He's seeking brahma-vidyā. And he has in Padnab(?) Brahma-vidya Mandir. Prabhupāda: Hm. Reporter: So he is... He is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti. Reporter: Ah? Prabhupāda: Mukti. Reporter: Mukti, yes. Prabhupāda: Piśācī. Reporter: Hm? (everyone laughs) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhukti and mukti. So they have manufactured so many "isms." Bhukti*-ism and mukti-ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up all these isms. Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love. Reporter: Yes. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Reporter: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (end) Garden Conversation with Mahädeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London Prabhupāda: The airplane botheration (sound of airplane flying over) was not in Switzerland. They do not come there for fear of rising... Mother: They fly higher. Prabhupāda: ...peaks. Peaks. Jesuit Priest: Mountains. Prabhupāda: So they don't come there. Mother: No, no. Prabhupāda: That was the only place in the world there was no such sound. Otherwise everywhere. In America we have got so many temples. Even in West Virginia, hilly tract, there is also aeroplane. But less sound. Here it is near London, there must be. Yes. Jesuit Priest: Have you met Mother Theresa? Prabhupāda: Who is Mother Theresa? Devotee: She's a Christian mystic. Revatīnandana: She's a Christian nun, and she has a mission in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saint Theresa? Revatīnandana: Mother Theresa. She's living there now. Jesuit Priest: She's an Albanian nun who works in India and is, and has captivated the whole world just by the fantastic work she's done and is doing amongst the down, the outcastes and the desperately poor in the cities of India, particularly in Calcutta. And she's got disciples, young men, young women, joining her, where most of the other religious orders are desperately short. And the youth is being captivated by her, and they can't cope with the numbers wanting to join. And she was given a big speech in the Guild Hall in London and was the first person presented with an enormous sum of money by the Duke of Edinburgh, voted by the World Council of Churches as the outstanding religious person in the world. And people at her speech who heard, it brought the audience to its feet. And all she said in her speech was nothing more except "Love, love, love, love. Just go on giving and look for nothing back," which made an enormous impact, probably the greatest impact that anybody's making at present, in the world at present. (jet going over) [break] Prabhupāda: ...satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization. Mother: In India, you mean. You're talking of India now. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Mother: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Mother: What about India? I mean, do they believe, the villagers? Prabhupāda: India, actually, they do so. Mother: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To get more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set*-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering... They are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollars." Although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollars? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society. Mother: Yes. But I think one has to be clever enough not to let people cheat you. Prabhupāda: Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city. Mother: But we have to teach our young to be able to define between those who cheat and those who..., be able to tell people who... Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating... Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way. Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world. Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God. Mother: I see he's happy. But, you know, he came from a very happy home. So he should be happy, shouldn't he? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Very happy home. Brothers and sisters. And we've all been very happy. And I hope he will remain happy. Prabhupāda: He's still happier. Mother: Yes, I can see. Prabhupāda: He was happy; now he's happier. That is the difference. Mother: Yes. Oh, I don't think he's happier. (laughter) You are? I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: You are not happier. Mother: I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: Because your son has come here, you may not be happier. But he happier. Mother: Oh, you're saying this. I'm not saying this. I'm very disappointed that he is not continuing with education. I'm not sorry that... I'm happy for his happiness, wherever he is. Prabhupāda: But what is the... What is the purpose of education? Mother: You are a cultured man. You're educated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Did you not learn...? Who gave you the talent to translate your Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Who gave you the talent, father? Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking that what is the best part of education? So far my school, college education is concerned, that is not being used here. Mother: Oh, but you're cultured. You in your old age are getting tremendous comfort from being able to read and understand what the world is doing, the goodness of your books, and you have..., you're able to understand the spiritual way of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Mother: If you couldn't, if you hadn't been educated, father, well, how would you be able to have...? Prabhupāda: No, education is required. Mother: Now, I, I, I don't... I am so happy that my son is happy, truthfully. But I am very distressed... And little boys, don't laugh because this is serious. Um. I am very distressed that none of these boys continue their education. What is going to happen to them when they are like you, when they're older, they have no talents? Prabhupāda: But your educational system, in the western countries, the, you have got big, big universities. Why the university students becoming hippies? Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must... Prabhupāda: No... Mother: But we must develop... Prabhupāda: I think the college students university students, they're all hippies. Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys... Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there... In India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your western countries you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie? Mother: Oh, but you... We're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you? Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple, this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy. Mother: Well, you're educated, you see. Prabhupāda: No, I am educated. Mother: Yes, but how many of these are? Prabhupāda: But I am not educated only on this platform, eating, sleeping and sex life and defense. I am educated in a different platform. Mother: But you, aren't you translating your books still? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Mother: Isn't that a great joy, a great joy to you? *Prabhupāda: That's... For translating of books it does not require... Of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise,... Real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money*-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question. Mother: Oh, but not your followers. Your followers are not being hippies, people who follow you. Therefore you've got the people who you could help to become cultured like you. Prabhupāda: So my father educated me in a different way. Therefore I have come to this stage. My father never allowed me even to drink tea. Mother: Well, I'm disappointed in you. I came to see you because I felt that, being so cultured, you would want all your boys to have this culture and to have this, to have the best... Revatīnandana: We've got, we've got this culture. Mother: Oh, but you haven't, you see. You're all, you're all young boys... Revatīnandana: No, your culture, your culture we don't have. Mother: ...but you're not mature yet. Revatīnandana: But the culture that he has, he's giving to us. Mother: Yes, but you're not mature. It takes years to become mature. Hurt, pain, happiness, everything together... You find God? Yes, I've found God. We all... I feel very close to God, and I feel very happy. But I would also still wish to be educated. And fortunately, I was given the chance to have an education. Prabhupāda: Education means to know God. Mother: And I don't misuse it. Prabhupāda: That is education. Our Vedic culture, the high class man is called brāhmaṇa. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa, you know that. Mother: Brāhmaṇa, yes. Prabhupāda: So who is a brāhmaṇa? Who knows God, he is called brāhmaṇa. Therefore culmination of education is to understand God. That is education. Otherwise, to get education how to nicely eat, how nicely sleep, how nicely have sex life, and how to defend, this education is there even in the animals. The animals also, they know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. Mother: Yes. It seems to worry you, this sex life. I mean, we, we don't take... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I'm not worried. Mother: ...any notice if... It fits into its place. Prabhupāda: This is also necessary. This is also necessary. Mother: It fits into the place in my life or our life. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is also necessary. Mother: Yes. It doesn't worry us at all. Prabhupāda: But these four type of branches of education is not sufficient for human being. A human being, above all this education, must have the knowledge how to love God. And that is perfection of life. Mother: Yeah, well, Michael was taught that when he was very small. The Jesuits saw to that. Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Mother: The Jesuits certainly did. Prabhupāda: So to understand God or how to love God, there is religious system. In every civilized human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Mohammedanism or Buddhism, the aim, religious system is there in human society besides the education of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animal society. So a human being is distinct from the animal when he has education how to understand God and how to love Him. That is perfection. Mother: Well, you've got a good tape there now, haven't you? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Mother: You've got a good tape there now. Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is now wanting. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not depriving people of their education. You get education how to eat, how to sleep, and that's all right. But side by side, you take education how to know God and how to love Him. That is our proposition. Mother: Yes. I agree with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes, I agree with you every time. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you stop all this education. No. Mother: No, I don't agree with you there. No, father, no, no. No, no. Prabhupāda: We don't say. Mother: No, I think they must... Prabhupāda: You can go on with your industries. You can go on with your university. But side by side, you become competent to know what is God and how to love Him. Then your life is perfect. Mother: I could mention a lot of names that (are) still very close to God and brilliant men in science... Where would we be without our scientists, without our doctors, medicine? They all have to go to university and get a degree before they... Prabhupāda: That I say. You get. Mother: Yes, but we need them. Prabhupāda: You get. Mother: Yes, well, the some of your boys could be doctors. Prabhupāda: But simply to becoming doctor at a medical science will not save me. Unfortunately, they do not believe in the next life. *Mother: Oh, yes they do. I go to... I had a doctor who came to church*-and Michael knows him-every Sunday, a very good man. Prabhupāda: Mostly. I have spoken with many educated persons. In Moscow I was talking with Professor Kotofsky. He said, "Swamiji, after finishing this body, everything is finished." But he's a big professor. Generally, even they do believe next life, they do not believe it very seriously. If we actually believe there is next life, then we must be prepared: "What kind of next life I am going to have?" Mother: Yes, well, father... *Prabhupāda: Because there are eight million, four hundred thousand forms of life. The trees are also life, the cats and dogs, they are also life. And there are higher, intelligent persons in the higher planetary systems. They are also life. The worm in the stool, that is also life. So, calculating all of them, there are 8,400,000 species of life. So if I am going to have next life... Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. We have to change this body to another body. So our concern should be "What kind of body I am going to get next?" Mother: I agree for some people to, you especially, to think of this because you are a leader of your Vedic religion. But for everybody to do that, where would we be? We couldn't all sit down and think all the time. Prabhupāda: But where is that education? Mother: But we... You can also work and think. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life? Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in. Jesuit Priest: All the Catholic Universities all over the world are doing it. That's our main purpose, is to teach the young man and the young girl the success in this world, but above all,... Prabhupāda: Then the next question... *Jesuit Priest: ...is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And following Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and return to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well*-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced... I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that... Prabhupāda: So... Jesuit Priest: ...looked after me, I wouldn't be here this afternoon. Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life? Jesuit Priest: I don't think it matters very much. I couldn't care less what's happening after I'm dead. All I know, there's not annihilation. I'm going to be joined with almighty God. Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be blind. Mother: We're going to almighty God. That's all. Jesuit Priest: Not that I want another life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: We're going to almighty God when we die. We don't have to worry. Jesuit Priest: That's in his hands. Prabhupāda: So what is the qualification? Mother: We know. We... Prabhupāda: Everybody is going to God? Mother: Yes. Everybody who believes in God. Yes. And leads a good life, does their best in this world, and that is truth for me. Prabhupāda: Then the question comes: What is the good life? Jesuit Priest: Obeying the commandments of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. Father, you're being a bit unfair. It isn't... Interpretation, "Thou shalt not kill," thou shalt not unjustly take away life. If a man walks in this afternoon through those bushes with a revolver, I have every right... I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I have every right to defend myself against that unjust aggressor. And if I kill him... Prabhupāda: Yes, you can, you can protect yourself... Jesuit Priest: ...that is justified. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...from the aggressor, but when you kill innocent animal, what is the reason? Jesuit Priest: Oh, well then... Yes. Well, again, that's got to be interpreted. We wouldn't be able to... What foo... How would we live on food? How do we live if we don't eat? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Well, I don't know... Prabhupāda: We don't kill animals. Jesuit Priest: I don't know what your food is, but... Mother: No, but you have a vegetarian diet... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: ...which is... Jesuit Priest: Well, all right. Mother: A lot of people have that. Prabhupāda: But that is not killing. Jesuit Priest: No, but... By, fa..., er, look at it this way. You've just said a few minutes ago there are eight million different kinds of life. Would you agree that the potato, the cabbage... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: ...and what have you also has a life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Because there's vegetative life, there's sensitive life, there's rational life... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jesuit Priest: : ...there's supernatural life, and there's a life of God. Prabhupāda: Yes *Jesuit Priest: All right. And therefore*-I'm not being facetious-when you boil those potatoes, you are taking away the life of that potato. Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy? That you can take any life? Jesuit Priest: But you said, "Thou shall not kill." Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Thou shall not kill." That's all right. Jesuit Priest: But you kill the potato. Prabhupāda: Now, suppose there is potato and there is your child. So would you like to kill your child in preference of potato? Mother: No, no. Jesuit Priest: You've not answered my question. Prabhupāda: Why this discrimination? Jesuit Priest: Why you've not answered my question? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering you, that you are to kill, but you have to discriminate what kind of killing you shall do. Jesuit Priest: Well, I've just said that. I gave the example of the chap who comes to you with a revolver. I can maybe protect myself. You said... You're implying... Prabhupāda: No, no. When somebody comes with a revolver, you defend. That is another thing. But if somebody's innocent, why you should kill? Jesuit Priest: And I say I shouldn't. God said, "Thou shalt not kill." Prabhupāda: Then why you are killing animals? Jesuit Priest: Well, you're doing it when you eat your potatoes. Prabhupāda: No, the potato is not animal. Jesuit Priest: It's a vegetable, life. Prabhupāda: No. Jesuit Priest: It starts with a little tiny seed. That's life. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Jesuit Priest: It grows. Prabhupāda: Potato is not animal. It is fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: It is a fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Has it got life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Are you doing anything wrong when you cut it down...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: ...to provide...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: ...to provide...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Jesuit Priest: You are doing something wrong? Prabhupāda: We don't cut down trees unnecessarily. Unnecessarily. Jesuit Priest: No, but, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh... I don't kill... Prabhupāda: No. But the... I have asked this question to so many people, that "Why you are killing although it is prohibited, 'Thou shall not kill.'?" They cannot give me any satisfactory answer. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think I've given you one. I'm just thinking in a way... Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very... Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not (indistinct) and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different... Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now... Jesuit Priest: ...kinds of life. Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam. But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal? Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Equal? Then why don't you kill your child, own child? Jesuit Priest: Because there's a, I mean, a... That's, that's... Logical. I just tried to show you the difference between... Prabhupāda: Now, we don't agree that... Jesuit Priest: ...vegetative life, sensitive life and rational life. Prabhupāda: ... that innocent... That... That's all right. Revatīnandana: Rational? Animals have got rationality. Jesuit Priest: No they haven't. Omnia animalia intelectu carent.(?) (Latin) Revatīnandana: Even your... Jesuit Priest: This is bringing out exactly... Revatīnandana: Even your own psychologists will display to you rational life in the monkeys. Jesuit Priest: No, no. Revatīnandana: And so many other animals. Rats. Jesuit Priest: No. Revatīnandana: They make rational decisions. Jesuit Priest: No they don't. Revatīnandana: Oh? Jesuit Priest: Well, I mean it's been accepted. ... Revatīnandana: Your own psychologists will display that to you. Jesuit Priest: Well, all I can say is it's been accepted in the teaching of not many western philosophers... Revatīnandana: Not eastern philosophers. Jesuit Priest: But all eastern philosophers... Omnia animalia intellectu carent.(?) (Latin) And now, as Mrs. Christie just said, if you've done a bit of study... Prabhupāda: So because, because some animal is not intelligent, you are right to kill? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. We're not talking about killing. He, his theme now, that there's no difference between us and the dog. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. *Revatīnandana: You're more intelligent than a dog*-to some degree. Prabhupāda: No, if... Jesuit Priest: So in other words, if we are, all of us here... Prabhupāda: Even the animal is not intelligent, you cannot kill. Because your child is also not intelligent, so that does not mean you can kill your child. Jesuit Priest: Oh, but nobody, I'd, nobody'd, nobody'd, master, nobody'd for one second would think about killing a child. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not a very good reasoning, that because the animal is not intelligent, they may be killed. That is not very good reason. Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, that isn't the reason. That isn't the reason why we kill it. We kill the animal because we need it for a means of living. Prabhupāda: No... Jesuit Priest: As food. Prabhupāda: You need it... Just like if you can get nice fruits, grains, milk, why do you need animal? You have to eat. You have to eat and live. Not to kill. Similarly, that if you can get nice foodstuff from food grains, from fruits, from flowers, from vegetables, from milk, why you should kill the animals? Mother: Well, a lot of people now are going over to health foods. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: This is thought of by a lot of people. Prabhupāda: Well, lot of people may do anything. Mother: I agree with you. Yes... Prabhupāda: But a reasonable man, a religious man, he should have discrimination, that "If I get my foodstuff from here, why shall I kill a big animal?" Mother: Well, it's not... I always think it's not for me to condemn people, whatever they do. All I ask for in life is... I'm not condemning you, but uh... Prabhupāda: No, we are thinking in that way. It is all right that we have to eat some living entity, but a difference... If we can get... Besides that, when you get the grains, it is not actually killing. When you get the fruits, I am getting these fruits from the tree. It is not killing. The fruits are there. I take it. It falls down. I take it. The grains also. It is not killing. Mother: Well, I think... No, well, I don't think we're really worried about whether we kill or you... Prabhupāda: So similarly, if I take milk from the cows, that is also cow's blood, but I don't kill it. So if I can live in such nice way, without killing, I get the fruits and flowers and the milk and the grains, why should I kill the animals? Mother: There're a tremendous number of people being vegetarians today. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: You're not the only people. I mean, a lot of people just have, yes, they do... Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is nice, very nice. They should be vegetarian. Mother: ...but we don't condemn people who do. Prabhupāda: That will make them less sinful. And that will qualify them to go back to home, back to Godhead. If they remain sinful, they cannot go. *Jesuit Priest: Would you say that because we*-and I talk about myself-because I have meat and bacon and so on, I am a, does that make me sinful? If I didn't eat those, I would be less sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is our philosophy. Jesuit Priest: So if I give up eating meat and bacon and sausages and things, I'll suddenly become a different person. Prabhupāda: Then you become pure. You become pure. Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes. Jesuit Priest: That's very interesting. Revatīnandana: I just met a gentleman who told me exactly that. Just a few min... He's a businessman here in London. He's about forty years old. And three months ago, he decided, because he learned, heard this from us, he decided to become a vegetarian. And a few weeks later, I talked to him. He said, "You know, it's amazing the difference in my consciousness." He says, "I have become a completely different man." Yeah, he told me that. Prabhupāda: Well, yes... Revatīnandana: And he's a very intelligent man. He's in the Mensa Society. Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature it is said the animal killers cannot understand God. Mother: Well, this is very good, sir, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument... Yes. Hmmm. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it. Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like... Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull. Mother: What about your children? Where do they? Do they go to school? Prabhupāda: Why not. Mother: Are they edu...? Do they go to schools, your children? Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school. Mother: Well, I didn't mean yours in particular. I'm talking now of all of you. I'm not talking of you particularly. I'm talking of all of you. All your children, the married devotees...? Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas, householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school. Mother: But you have got a school, a Kṛṣṇa school? Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. Mother: And now, how...? Do they go through college? Prabhupāda: They are now little children. But we don't wish to send them to college. We have got sufficient books. Mother: So you'll cut off their education like that? Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense education? Revatīnandana: No, no. Mother: Now, do you think that's not cruel to them? Prabhupāda: We don't care for this... Revatīnandana: We cut off your education, and we take education from the *Vedas* and from our spiritual master. We learn how to read, how to write, how to handle numbers sufficiently, and whatever we need practically for our work. And we learn the science of God from our spiritual master. And we find that sufficient for us. We haven't got to spend extra time and many extra years irrelevant subjects that are never going to relate to our practical life or to our God conscious life. Jesuit Priest: But you're depending on other people, then, to do the other side of your life for you. Prabhupāda: We are not depending on anyone. Jesuit Priest: Well, what happens when suddenly one of you gets, very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Jesuit Priest: What happens if somebody gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: So we give them medicine. Mother: You call the doctor. Jesuit Priest: No, you call the doctor, don't you? Prabhupāda: So we pay for that. Jesuit Priest: I know, but you call him, don't you? You want him to be, you want the doctor in existence. Prabhupāda: So does it mean to say that because we require necessary, we have to take education of medical man? Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men. Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily... Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our training is... First of all, try to understand. We... Just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work, walking. The hand is doing its own work. And the belly's doing its own work. And the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg. But does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also. Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like... Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from... When there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: Yes. Well, as I say... Prabhupāda: It does not... Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse. Prabhupāda: You are asking us "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take? Mother: Because if everybody... Prabhupāda: No, there is no necessity. If the... If I can pay, I can get the help of a medical man, why should I waste my time in that way? Let me... *Mother: You think? Ah, but you should be self*-supporting. You should be... Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God. *Mother: You should be self*-supporting in that way. *Prabhupāda: Self*-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: No, I don't mean that. You're misunderstanding me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then your question is replied. When I need the help of a medical man, I go to the medical man. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that... Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find. Mother: ...you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no? Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question. Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question? Mother: Well, my brain works and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick... Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. Mother: ...and still be with God. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man. Mother: I think it's so sad to see a lot of very good... Prabhupāda: No, no. Just, just try to understand this point. Mother: ...young men becoming cabbages. Prabhupāda: They're misunderstanding. Yes. When I can get... Just like here is father. He's trained up how to preach. He's not a medical man. But he doesn't require to learn the medical science. Mother: No, but I didn't ask you to be a doctor. I said some of your boys. Prabhupāda: Why... Why you are asking? My boys are the same. Revatīnandana: Which ones? Which ones of us should become doctors here? Mother: Well, all, all, all... Revatīnandana: Supposing they all want to be preachers. Do you go to your seminaries and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox... Revatīnandana: No. No, no. Mother: ...or typhoid, you... You know what smallpox is like in India. Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division. Revatīnandana: Do you go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: It'd be no good at all being priest if you had smallpox, would it? Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come..." Prabhupāda: We are treating them. Revatīnandana: "...and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers. Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes. Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business. Mother: Well, my son is my business. Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent. Mother: Yes, but he was... Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you. Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university. Prabhupāda: But... That's all right. If some of our student goes to the university... There are many students... Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael. Prabhupāda: We don't object to that. Revatīnandana: Michael came to the temple in London, sat down, and didn't want to go away. Mother: He'd been taking LSD, and he was very sick. And somebody took him in. Prabhupāda: So,... So when he was taking LSD, what did you do for him? Revatīnandana: Why was he taking LSD? He had wonderful education, happy home, so many things. Mother: Well, he was experimenting. Now this is it... Revatīnandana: So LSD is acknowledged a dangerous thing to experiment with. Prabhupāda: You like that? You like that? Mother: Well, he had a false... This was not... Prabhupāda: When he was taking LSD, did you like that? Mother: I didn't know, did I? Prabhupāda: Then? Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: And this is it. Prabhupāda: So there must be division for upkeep of the soc... That is missing. At the present moment, there is no division. Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD. Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be, there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division, and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men, and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of man has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (loud noise of jet going over). What is the use of talking? Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books. Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question. Mother: Is it not...? Prabhupāda: I say that there must be divisions. We are working on certain division. Mother: Well, tell me about the books you have translated. Are there some more to translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Well, one day you will die. Now who will translate them then? Continue the translating? Prabhupāda: There are many. There are many. They are being trained up. There are many. Mother: Ah, yes. So people are being trained. Ah. This is what I'm asking you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Well, I explained that to you earlier, that we have our classes. Prabhupāda: We are training every day. Mother: But then, this is languages. You've got to, you've got to study languages. You can't just be taught... Revatīnandana: Yes. So a few of us, so the few of us who have an aptitude for Sanskrit language are studying Sanskrit language. Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit, we are teaching English. Especially. Especially we are giving training to our boys to learn simply English and Sanskrit. Then they will be help. By learning Sanskrit, they will be able to read... Mother: Latin? And...? What...? Prabhupāda: There is no need of... One language sufficient. English language, practical... *Mother: Ah, but then that is one*-sided then, isn't it? Revatīnandana: Most of us don't even study Sanskrit very much. Prabhupāda: No. Just like English book. We are translating in German, translating in France, in Spanish... Mother: But there's a lot of Latin that needs translating too. I mean, you must, you must, you must have a full understanding of everything if you're going to translate. Prabhupāda: Yes. It will be better. If you also join, then we'll have full understanding. (mother laughs) Mother: You have a sense of humor. Jesuit Priest: What language, master, was your books originally written in? Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Don't you find it extremely difficult to get the literal meaning from the Sanskrit to the English? Prabhupāda: No. You may, it may be difficult for you, but... Jesuit Priest: No, no. I'm just thinking... Prabhupāda: ...for one who knows Sanskrit, it is not difficult for him. Jesuit Priest: When I did my studies, we had to do Greek and Hebrew and Latin and, naturally, reading the scriptures in English. But it helped enormously with a background of a little bit of Hebrew. Not very much. But certainly Greek and Latin. You get a much more comprehensive notion of what's in the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are teaching Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit to our students. Jesuit Priest: Yes, but all I was saying was, isn't it difficult to get across at times what you can see the meaning in the Sanskrit, but you can't put it into acceptable English? You know what I mean. The idiom isn't the same. Prabhupāda: We are giving every word, meaning. The book... Have you got any book? Bring it. You can see. Each and every word of Sanskrit we are giving meaning. Our mode of presentation is first of all we put the original Sanskrit language in devanāgarī character. Then we give English, Roman transliteration, pronouncing the same word by diacritic mark. Then each word is translated into English. Then we give translation, the whole. And then we give the purport. This is our way. So we are giving meaning of each and every word means we have got considerable knowledge of that word. Otherwise how we can give? Yes. Jesuit Priest: I was just thinking how difficult it is. I read Latin pretty well. And Greek. And I can see the meaning in the original, in the Greek when it was translated from the Aramaic. Now in your translating you can get a phrase, and if you know the language, you know exactly what it conveys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Put it into English and somehow, some of the meaning has come... Prabhupāda: Then that exact... Jesuit Priest: It's like the French. How do you say in..., how do you translate "au revoir"? Prabhupāda: Otto? Revatīnandana: He's asking you how to translate a French word, "au revoir." Jesuit Priest: How do you translate into English? Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm not translating. The person who knows French language, he translates from our English. Jesuit Priest: Yes. No, well, I'm only trying to... A very simple question. It's not a question of trying to try anybody. I happened to say or give an example of what I mean. How'd you say in English, "au revoir." Prabhupāda: Just... Just the... You have seen the... Just show him how it is done. Yes, you can do it. Revatīnandana: That's all right. Mahādeva, you do it. Prabhupāda: You see the original Sanskrit. Mahādeva: Here's the text, here's the original Sanskrit. And we have a Roman transliteration, and then individually, the word meanings. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I see. I've got it, yes. Mahādeva: And then a full translation. Jesuit Priest: Translation. Yes. They're marvelous. Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually, most of the Sanskrit, much of that work is done by one of Prabhupāda's disciples now. He handles much of the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being trained. Revatīnandana: It's a mechanical process, after all. But the translation, that requires not only knowledge of the language, it requires spiritual realization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the spiritual translation is done by Prabhupāda. Not just from knowledge of Sanskrit, but from spiritually realized knowledge. That is the qualification to put the meaning into any language. You have to have realized the message. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I agree. Certainly our, the great, in the western church, all the translations of the Gospels and the Old and New Testament is done by, for the most part, by men who were saints, and, in other words, it wasn't merely their knowledge of the language, but their incredible closeness to God, in everyone of them, Garems(?) and Augustine and all the great men... Revatīnandana: The most recent translation accepted by the Church of England, in England, was done by Oxford scholars. Saintly men? I know some of them. I don't think they're actually saintly men. Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. Revatīnandana: Well, it's the modern... It's accepted by the Church of England and most other Protestant churches in England. It's the new English Bible. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And it's recommended by all these churches for their followers to read. And it's translated by scholars, Oxford scholars. Jesuit Priest: Yes. I see. I take your point, that you can have a translation which is purely academic and a translation which is not merely academic, but has a, sort of a spiritual experience behind it. *Revatīnandana: Um*-huh. Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by... I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to, doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow. Revatīnandana: Hmh. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Christie just pointed out that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD? Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so, they, lots of the young people today... Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful. Jesuit Priest: There's a vacuum created, and so they'd rather take it up in... Mother: It's very extraordinary, though, that every boy that I have spoken to here... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam... [Bg. 7.28]. Mother: ...have all taken LSD or drugs of some kind. *Prabhupāda: ...janānāṁ puṇya*-karmaṇām. Revatīnandana: That was one who hasn't. Mother: Even your president... Devotee: I haven't. Mother: I said... Revatīnandana: This one, this one... Mother: The ones I have spoken to. I said the ones I have spoken to. Even your president... *Revatīnandana: And Father Bernard? Father Bernard spent twenty*-three years in a Cistercian monastery. He left and came to us right afterwards, and he's never taken LSD. Jesuit Priest: Who was in a Cistercian monastery? Revatīnandana: Father Bernard there. Jesuit Priest: Are you a priest? Mother: But I say quite a lot of your young people have come to you since they took drugs. I've spoken to... Even your president admitted that he'd taken drugs. Prabhupāda: There is no restriction for anyone. God is open for everyone. Mother: But you said... Michael, I said, "Most of the people that I have spoken to." I didn't say "most of the people here." I said, "most of the people..." One person I'd spoken to hadn't, but I can truthfully say that only one hadn't, out of the ones I've spoken to. They have come here... You are... You seem to be able to help the people that have taken drugs so that... Prabhupāda: That is my duty. Mother: You've helped them tremendously, and I can see this, but I am so sad that you can't help them to further their education. That's all my, my problem is... Mahādeva: Prabhupāda was making the point that the purpose of education is to know God. Mother: Yes, I know. I know. Yes, he has, and I've seen that point. Prabhupāda: Don't you think this is education? Mother: Well... Prabhupāda: This translator work? Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we are teaching our boys... Mother: But you know what I me... Prabhupāda: ...Sanskrit and English to translate the original Vedic lit..., is it not education? Mother: Yes, I agree with you. That is education. But I mean a fuller education. Prabhupāda: You are trying to induce our students to become technologists, medical men. You want that. Mother: Yes, because the world must have them. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But our point is that if we can get the help of technologist by paying little money... Mother: Well, you'd laugh if you were ill and there was no doctor, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: ...why should we waste our time? Mother: If you had acute appendicitis, what would you do? Devotee: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mother: Well, you wouldn't. You'd die. I mean... You laugh when I say that. Somebody's got to be a doctor. You're being very childish. Father agrees. There must be doctors. Revatīnandana: Well, it's good that... In the society we observe there are many, many people becoming doctors. But there are not very many people becoming brāhmaṇas, people who live a sinless life and who learn the science of God and distribute it to the people. There're not very many people... Jesuit Priest: I think that... I think that... (?) Revatīnandana: Not very many, not very many people are doing that. Jesuit Priest: I don't know. I think that that's a gratuitous statement for which you can have no proof. Revatīnandana: I'm just saying not many people are doing it. How many pe... How many people, compared to the number of medical students in England, how many people are students in religious seminaries? Jesuit Priest: Well, do you know? Revatīnandana: No, I'm asking you. Jesuit Priest: Well, I do. I do. I do know it. Revatīnandana: So give us a comparison. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I... We've no problem at all... Prabhupāda: Now, another thing is... Jesuit Priest: ...in finding plenty of young men to go along with the principles... Revatīnandana: Neither have we. And you're teaching them to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And Prabhupāda is teaching us to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I know... I've never questioned that... Revatīnandana: So there's no necessity, there's no necessity of canvassing amongst the seminaries or here for medical doctors. Mother: No, no. You've missed the whole point. Mrs. Christie's original statement was, if the young men here went on, not mer..., keep the knowledge and the search for the knowledge and love of God, by all means, but let them go on to develop their knowledge in the world of science, in the world of learning, and thus become leaders in that particular branch with a spiritual motif behind it, and instead of enclosing yourselves inside a circle like this, being able to spread the love of God amongst the tens of thousands of young people in the world. That's all... Revatīnandana: No. I, I suspect... Mother: We need it. We need it. Revatīnandana: I suspect that for the hundred, hundred or hundred and twenty of us in England, I think, for the number of us, I'll bet we're doing more work per man to spread it among the young people than your mission is. Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't know. You're making this statement. I haven't proof. Revatīnandana: Well, I know that in almost all of our centers they suddenly happen to be developing a temple like this. We spend every day, from ten o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night engaged in preaching work. Jesuit Priest: I think most of us do, too. Prabhupāda: Now, in each of our centers we have got minimum fifty heads, maximum two hundred, 250. In Los Angeles, you see... Just we have got recent photograph. Bring the photograph from my room. You can bring. So we are giving them place, we are giving them food, we are giving them education. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: In this way. So we invite anyone, everyone, without any distinction, without any discrimination. He may be Christian, he may be Hindu, he may be Mohammedan. "Come on. Live with us, and learn how to love." That is our mission. We say, according to our Vedic description, Mother: Well, I think we do that. Jesuit Priest: We're all doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Most people. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our mission. Now, if you find it difficulty, you can come and join with us. That's all. Practically, in Europe and America, they are all coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So... Yes. This is a recent photograph of our Los Angeles center. They are regularly living in the temple, as they are living in the temple. Mother: Hm. Prabhupāda: And you'll also be surprised to know that this, this was a church, that building. It was a big church. So we have purchased it. Jesuit Priest: Very nice. Mother: In other words, your temple... Do you call it your temple or a church? Prabhupāda: We call temple. Mother: A temple. And are these married and...? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are married, there are sannyāsīs, there are brahmacārī, all kinds of people. It is not restricted. You see. So many children. They're having children. We are taking care of them. Everything. Mother: Now, do you have these temples in India? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Mother: Because I myself haven't been to India, but my parents were there. And the Indian contingent from Dunkirk was billeted in my home in 1940, just before my marriage. Prabhupāda: Oh. There you see. Oh. Mother: And we had all the Indians there after Dunkirk waiting for more Indians to come and join them. And we had the Hindus and the Mohammedans and the sweepers, and they all had their own houses. And they recovered from all the war damage, and they went off within about twelve months. They went off in '41, back to... Prabhupāda: There was some bombing in Calcutta, nothing more. Mother: Hm. Ah, but these Indians were fighting in France. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Mother: Dunkirk. Prabhupāda: Dunkirk. Mother: And then they came, when Dunkirk was evacuated, they came back in all these little boats that they escaped in, and they got together and they billeted them... And I was living with my godmother in Sholden (?) in Devonshire. And we had eight acres. And the Army put up huts for them. And they lived there for about eight months until more Indians were sent to make them back to strength again, the regiments, big enough. And then they went overseas again. Some went to Burma, some to Italy. I don't know where they went, of course, but they were very good... Prabhupāda: They went to die, after all. Mother: They were very good soldiers. No, they didn't all die. Of course, some did, I expect. Prabhupāda: Some, (laughs) yes. Mother: But they were, they were very fine men. Jesuit Priest: Well, anyhow, thank you very much, father, for letting us talk and for letting us listen to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here. Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for... Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life. Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Mother: Yes, we do that. Prabhupāda: That is our... *Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty*-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I? Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest? *Jesuit Priest: And I'm not only one, but there happen to be thirty*-three thousand of us in the world. Prabhupāda: Because you have become a priest, that means you love God. *Jesuit Priest: Yes. Fifty*-two years ago I made up my mind. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is understood. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are brāhmaṇa because... Mother: How do you know I'm a grandmother? Revatīnandana: No, he said brāhmaṇa. Mother: Oh! I thought you said grandmother! I am a grandmother. Prabhupāda: Now, that's it. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think we'd better be... Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam. Mother: Well, thank you very much. And... Devotee: Give it in the house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam there. Mother: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Mother: Well, I think we understand each other a little better. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you are fortunate that you have got so nice son like that. Mother: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye, thanks, good-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye, all of you. Bye. [Break] Revatīnandana: ...question that she said, he came to us because he was taking LSD and he had a false religious experience. And the question is now, if they have access to a true religious experience, why was he looking for a false religious experience? Why was Michael looking for a false religious experience from LSD if he had already got true religion? They didn't understand. Their best children are taking LSD because they can't get any satisfaction from their parents' religion. Śrutakīrti: He answered that by saying he didn't have that supernatural grace. Revatīnandana: Yeah, why not? That's pretty clear, actually. "Well, we love God. Yes, we love God." A steak and a glass of wine and God. Śrutakīrti: I think a storm is coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: A rainstorm is... Prabhupāda: Rainstorm? No. Revatīnandana: Little, little... It might rain. It's not for a while. But when it gets misty, it sometimes rains. Prabhupāda: You can understand from the cloud. When it's blackish, then there is rain. [Break] (end) Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London Revatīnandana: So Mr. Popworth you know, and Mr. Schumacher will be up in a second. Prabhupāda: Yes, you came here before. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: How are you? Popworth: My invariable reply, sir, is that I am dying slowly. I trust you are well, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. Old man, struggling. Spiritual consciousness is not dependent on material impediments. Popworth: I'm not hearing these beautiful words. (pause) *Revatīnandana: He remarked that the spiritual consciousness is not impeded by material impediments*-like the body. Popworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bath full of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it. Prabhupāda: What is your idea of meditation? (Someone comes in.) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Sit over here. Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni, the Sanskrit word is muni. Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of, "Crisis of Increasing Motor Cars," in this paper. Actually, we are creating a crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung: sat*-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye vilāsa. Sat-saṅga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa, we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu... There are two things, material and spiritual. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye... "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma-bandha-phāṅsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motor Car Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading. Revatīnandana: Was it this one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay. Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: It's called "The Economics of Permanence." Prabhupāda: Yes. "The Motor Car Crisis"? Revatīnandana: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location. Vicitravīrya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps. It was in one of the eight magazines, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Here. Popworth: The one on Buddhist economics. Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence." Popworth: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Hm. "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article. "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit, another side, we make pollution. This is the material, result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, it is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you... That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Popworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that? Revatīnandana: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking. *Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he became perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it. But we say, purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible. Popworth: It's possible to what? Prabhupāda: Purify. Popworth: Purify the pollution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Popworth: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. So everything should be done-that is called karma-yoga*-in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized: bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3]. "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go, we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it. Popworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it? *Prabhupāda: The means is that... Our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana, chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we... We can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By, but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motor car factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord." What their, what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say. Schumacher: I don't see the point. Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection. Schumacher: No. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange, that "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. But we don't demand anything, that "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So... From the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, everything will be purified. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... [Cc. Antya 20.12]. All problems will be solved. This is the beginning. Now, gradually, as people understand this philosophy, they will understand. They will understand. If they simply give us the chance. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Let them remain in their position. We don't disturb. We don't disturb. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Simply they will kindly give their aural reception what we are speaking. Popworth: Well, the diagnostic's not altogether clear to me how the chanting is going to affect the pollution. How do you see...? Prabhupāda: It is a purificatory process. Pollution means impure. So if you purify, then there is no more pollution. Just like infection. You have got some disease, infection. If you give some vaccine to purify the body, the infection is gone. It is like that. Revatīnandana: It seems that there's a difference in the usage of this word pollution. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: I think there's a difference in the way the word pollution is being used. Prabhupāda: Yes, whatever meaning you may do... Revatīnandana: So, for instance, if it is used to indicate air pollution... Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: ...then how will the chanting will affect that? Prabhupāda: Yes, it will affect. Revatīnandana: He's asking how. Prabhupāda: How? That you do not know. You'll have to realize when you give us the chance. But if you give us the chance, there is no loss on your part. But you'll practically see how it is rectified, how it is... Vicitravīrya: Pollution is to some extent a result of materialistic activity? Prabhupāda: Hm? Vicitravīrya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual... *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is. These are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gītā. We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing, that in communist country. Haṁsadūta: Ah... Prabhupāda: You just explain to them. Haṁsadūta: They have a big youth festival there in East Berlin. Maybe you know? "The Festival of Youth." Popworth: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so*-called communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect. Popworth: They were communist youth who were surrounding? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Popworth: The people. Haṁsadūta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses. Popworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all communist youth, are they? *Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because communism, so*-called communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism because we recognize that the Supreme... Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy... Communist philosophy is "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? But it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism. Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center. Popworth: Do you think that the Christian monasteries practiced this in the past, or perhaps even today? Haṁsadūta: Well, today, no one is practicing it. Otherwise why people are leaving the church? No one is in the monastery, no one is in the church. They are abandoning it. Because there is no center. As soon as there is a center, it will carry weight. Just like a wheel. If there's a hub, if there's a hub, that it will carry weight. Popworth: I have not abandoned the church. I have embraced it. *Haṁsadūta: Anyway, our point is... We're speaking in general. In general, because the center, factually the center, God, is missing, somehow or other, He's missing, therefore people are also giving it up. They can't take it. Because it's not practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is practical. It's not a sentiment or a dry philosophy. It's a practical philosophy of life, absolute philosophy of life, how to do everything without any pollution, without any contamination. Just like we are experiencing by our so*-called advancement that we have created so many modern facilities for comfort, but the result is, alongside, simultaneously, there's an equal disadvantage. Just like we create a motor car. But we create air pollution. Or you create a highway. But you have to create snowplow to clear the highway. You have to create police. You have to create so many other things. Prabhupāda: And there is list of accidents, injuries. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here, his mother came here along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said, "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure as he had just been saying, then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer it. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual something at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet, we have filled that lack, or our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that. Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause) Revatīnandana: How does the, how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit in your philosophy for, say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy? Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as... Revatīnandana: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on. Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Schumacher: That's what I was saying, you see. Prabhupāda: When there is no food, so human life is more important than animal life. So the human life should be saved at the sacrifice of animals. That is another question. But where there is complete facilities to get very nice, nutritious food, why these poor animals should be killed? Revatīnandana: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that... Prabhupāda: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree. Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it. I mean... Prabhupāda: No, it is a simple question. Killing, do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill." Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same time, you want to purify. How it is possible? *Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat*-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends, the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of a treatment of animals is just so, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge. *Revatīnandana: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, they can be changed. All of us are from meat*-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants. We've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life. But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him... I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction. Popworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what? Revatīnandana: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said, "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology. No senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the *Vedas*, is a human birth. So you're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not... An intelligent man who can sense that "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's... Popworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made was not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible, I don't say this to justify the killing of animals. But it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoe box, and then add more two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me, and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it... It seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing. Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing? Popworth: Far more. Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter. Prabhupāda: Oh. Popworth: And young cows, calves are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food, milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins, to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down. Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals. Revatīnandana: No, he's talking... He's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him... Haṁsadūta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop. Popworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are... Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then the animals are free. They can go everywhere. Popworth: I think you are avoiding the point. Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. The next stage of brute mentality... They're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not? Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not within the womb. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory. Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty... Well, I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat*-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices, I think one should be a bit careful. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all, all throughout history... Haṁsadūta: Therefore all throughout history... Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't... Haṁsadūta: ...you haven't... Why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat..., animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means... Prabhupāda: Pollution. Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting... Just like you make an automobile; *you get the reaction*-air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed. Popworth: You think like this? Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's... There are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction. Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good, a good formula on this, and... Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy. Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat... Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say. Schumacher: ...but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat. Prabhupāda: What is this? Schumacher: So they let the Muslims kill the animals. *Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take... If the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal*-killer. Schumacher: Well, that is... Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat if I eat the meat I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic... There's a Vedic verse that explains it. Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course. Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking, in this way... Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution. Revatīnandana: This, this... Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue. Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it. Revatīnandana: Oh, it changes everything immediately. *Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty*-thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London... Now I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems. Haṁsadūta: Yes, let them come here. We will... Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic... Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming. Prabhupāda: Because there are restriction. Schumacher: That is not, that is not... That doesn't meet my point. My point is... Haṁsadūta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Kṛṣṇa can provide place for any number of His... Prabhupāda: Millions. Haṁsadūta: ...devotees. Any number. Popworth: I found this the other day, and you'll forgive me making this point, but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest to listen to what he has to say. Then answer him. Revatīnandana: But... Just that this is interesting, that the solution is there... Schumacher: But you haven't heard the problem yet. Revatīnandana: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand. Prabhupāda: But one thing... Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand? Prabhupāda: Mister, yes... I forgot your name. Popworth: John. Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world. Popworth: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things*-they will be all failure, all failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it. Schumacher: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathe... [SB 5.18.12]. This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end) *Prabhupāda: ...there are so many paths, that Kṛṣṇa says that "Real religion is to surrender unto Me. Therefore you give up all this pseudo*-religion," sarva dharman parityajya, give it up, mam ekam saranam, "just surrender unto Me, I shall give you protection from all sinful reaction." So here is God, and He is accepted by great ācāryas. In India there were great ācāryas, religious leaders. Just like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbarka, later Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and many others. They accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is God, His name, His address, His activities, everything is there. If you accept, then you will benefit. Woman: Do you think that the, the poor Indians who are suffering because of this terrible drought in India..., is it in India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman: Yes. Umm, is their relief never going to be in this world? Is it only going to be when they die? Prabhupāda: Well, nobody is dying. Woman: Dying is parting, is the soul parting from the physical body (indistinct).... Prabhupāda: So every, everyone everywhere is dying. Do you think in your country nobody dies? Is there any guarantee, that any, that nobody will die? Woman: No, but everyone, everyone dies because this..., because this is the pattern and this is the cycle: you are born, you will live your life, you will die. Some people die young, some people die old. Prabhupāda: No. India, India at the present moment, they have lost their culture. In India, five thousand years ago, when Maharaja Pariksit was there, one black man was trying to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword, the king. So "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" The same India, the government is sanctioning ten thousand cows to be killed daily. So India is not the same India. India has lost its culture. You see? Therefore they are suffering. Woman: But everything is changing. Not only India is changing, every country is... Prabhupāda: So every country is suffering. Just they are suffering in one way. Devotee (1): California is suffering... *Prabhupāda: Suffering another way. Nobody is, is free from suffering. I have already explained. There are three kinds of suffering. So who is free from this suffering? You may not be suffering from any bodily disease, but you may be suffering from mental agony. You may not be suffering from mental agony, but you may suffer, suffering imposed by others. There are so many suffering. This place is suffering. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This place is for suffering. Duḥkhālayam. Duhkha means suffering, alayam means place. Asasvatam. And still you cannot make adjustment. You, if you say "All right, let there be a little suffering. Let me stay here," that also will not be allowed. You will be kicked out: "Get out!" Then you have to accept another body. You do not know what kind of body. So these things are there. Don't think that a little happy life for ten years or twenty years is the solution of your problem. That is not solution. Real solution is different. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, *Find out this verse, mām upetya tu kaunteya, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. You are reading Bhagavad*-gītā, kindly read very carefully. You will get all answers. Man: I am going to read it. Devotee (2): I have the book, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again." *Prabhupāda: This is a, this is a fact. That, that people are going to the higher planetary system, that is already known. Not this process, but there is another process, how you can graduate there. So, ā*-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ. And even if you go to the highest planetary system, Brahmā-loka, where people live for millions and millions of years... Brahmā's one day, twelve hours, you cannot calculate. It is so big number of years. So Kṛṣṇa says that if you do go to the Brahmā-loka, still you have to come. Simply your suffering will be stopped, mām upetya tu kaunteya, duḥkhālayam. What is that? Devotee (2): Mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Prabhupāda: Then mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, where is that? Devotee (2): Oh, Prabhupāda: What is the meaning? Devotee (2): "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." Prabhupāda: This is the highest perfection. We have to go to Kṛṣṇa. Woman: So when you have had your suffering in various forms and through various lives, you then reach the... Prabhupāda: No, not that. Woman: Not that. Not... Prabhupāda: Not that. Woman: Not that. Prabhupāda: You have to prepare yourself to go there. Not that because you have suffered so much, automatically you will go there. Woman: Not that. Not that. *Prabhupāda: No, not like that. Unless you endeavor for going to Kṛṣṇa, there is no possibility. That is there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Human life is meant for trying for that thing which he has not achieved by wandering up and down. So a living entity is wandering up and down, sometimes in the higher planetary system and lower planetary system, sometimes this, sometimes rich, sometimes poor, sometimes this, sometimes a cat, sometimes dog, sometimes demigod. In this way he is suffering. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. You understand Bengali? In this way... Man: (indistinct), is it? *Prabhupāda: ...in this way a living entity is wandering, but by fortune, if he gets in touch, guru*-kṛṣṇa, a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa, a guru, by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, then he gets the seed of devotional service. And if he cultivates that devotional service, then he goes. This is the process. Not that because one has suffered so much, therefore automatically. Woman: No, no. Prabhupāda: No, not that. Man: Swamiji, my wife is tired, I think. She's had a long day today. May I have your permission... Prabhupāda: Yes. Man: ...to take her home? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Man: Thank you very much. It's been a great joy for me and for my wife to be with you. Prabhupāda: (softly to devotee) Give them this flower. One. Yes. No. Devotee: One? Prabhupāda: Yes. Take another. (to guests) Your full name? Devotee: Your full name. Woman: Your full name. Ruby and James (indistinct). Man: Ruby and James (indistinct). You have my name, full name. Devotee: Yes. Woman: How did you find out his name? Devotee: I was recommended, in fact. Woman: By who? Devotee: Oh, the person asked me not to say. Woman: Oh I see. Man: Who? Woman: The person asked not to say. Man: Ahh. Thank you. Devotee: You may take these also. Man: For me? Devotee: Yes. Man: Thank you very much. We will, we will read this with great joy at home. Thank you, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end) Conversation -- July 27, 1973, London (Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy) Sir Alistair Hardy: (reading from notes) ". . . answer in Christian terms, but no doubt the same idea could be put into the language of other faiths. It is to bring about the kingdom of God on earth: 'Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.' " Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: Question six: "How does one achieve that goal?" "By seeking guidance, help, strength, and the power to accomplish one's humble path towards its achievement. By seeking it through prayer, through content, and the power we call God." Your question seven: "How can Christianity and Kṛṣṇa consciousness cooperate for the general benefit of the British people?" Now here I find this difficult to answer. I say: "I cannot pretend to be able to answer this, for I have no deep knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *On the other hand, I must say that I do not believe that Christianity even in co*-operation with Kṛṣṇa consciousness can more particularly benefit the British people than people of other nationalities." I wouldn't like to confine God's power to the British people; I would say to the whole peoples of the world. Now your last question, I'm afraid I haven't had time to get typed. It's written . . . Prabhupāda: That's alright. That's alright. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . it's written on your copy, but not on . . . Prabhupāda: No, I can read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: I've got a pencil copy here. Prabhupāda: I can read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: You can read it, can you? Yes. Prabhupāda: I read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: Can you read it? Yes. Shall I read it out for the others to hear? Should I read it out? I'll read it out. The eighth question . . . I was getting this typed . . . Prabhupāda: That's alright. Sir Alistair Hardy: I wrote this. I had it rough . . . "How is God realized? And what are the different features?" My answer is: "He is realized in the world through the divinely inspired actions of man. The different features are, to mention only some, acts of courage; acts of love, compassion and sacrifice; acts of creation in art, literature, music and science—and on the more personal side, the sense of the numerous experience in sacred places and situations; the joyous wonder of natural beauty, and, on rare occasions, for those who are so favored, the ecstasy of mystical experience." Well, those are short answers to your questions in all humility, and I've thought over them. You see, I have got a scientific training. I'm not so concerned as you are, perhaps, with the great utterances of the past, because I feel God is living today as much as He was in the past, and while the great words of the great prophets in our own religion, and of Jesus—also to mention the importance of St. Paul and the others—to my mind they are no more important than the manifestations of the will of God and the power of God, the voice of God, the experience of God working now, today. I think we have got to show the world that we aren't just living with a religion that is founded simply on the utterances of the past, but what is a living religion that can alter the world and that can be as vital in any country of the world. I want to see something like science. Science, as I have said, is not just confined to one country; it has a universal application. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: But I believe a religion that can embrace . . . Prabhupāda: That is real religion. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . the Kṛṣṇa, Christianity, possibly parts of Buddhism and so on, can be brought together to show mankind that here is a living force in the world quite as powerful as the force of atomic energy in science. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Sir Alistair Hardy: That is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to collect experience that will, I hope, at any rate, begin to convince the intellectual world that here is something that is really vitally important in man's make*-up. Something, as I say, as important biologically as sex. Because I think man's whole development has been through the power of God within him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which is in God, that is partially represented in man, because . . . because every living being is part and parcel of God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, that's just what I feel. *Prabhupāda: (aside) Just find out the . . . mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ ( BG 15.7). Sir Alistair Hardy: God is partly transcended, but He's inside the self, too. *Prabhupāda: Here is the Bhagavad*-gītā verse, in the Fifteenth Chapter, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ . Revatīnandana: The first part of that statement was that everything that is in God is partly represented in man. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, yes. Revatīnandana: That was the first part, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: So here that there are, of course, a number of problems of human life. Yes. There are a number of problems. Just like when a man becomes diseased, particular type of disease—suppose he is attacked with, infected with typhoid fever. So he has got so many symptoms, but the diagnosis is, doctor says that he is infected with typhoid fever. Similarly, our one problem is that we do not know what is God. Why this problem? This human form life is particularly a gift of nature for understanding God, because in the human society, there is attempt to understand God, either through Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion or Buddhist religion. In every civilized human society there is a kind of institution through which they want to know God. Therefore the problem of human life is to know God. Sir Alistair Hardy: I agree. Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no other problem. These economic problem, other problems, that is our creation. Actually, they are our artificial problem. Because our . . . what is our problem? Eating, sleeping, mating and defending. We have to eat something, we have to live somewhere, we must have our sex life and we must defend. These are four problems of living entity. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, but I am saying that these which are true as economic problems, those of overpopulation, those of . . . Prabhupāda: No. That we do not accept, that there is overpopulation. There is mismanagement. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, there is malnutrition, there is . . . Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . that is our mismanagement. Just like I will say that I have studied all over the world, I have seen, there are immense potencies. In my opinion if we, all nations of the world, as the United Nation, if you have got to really brain, and if we are really anxious to solve the problems, so far overpopulation is concerned, ten times overpopulation as at the present can be provided by the production of the world. Ten times. Sir Alistair Hardy: But in two or three hundred years' time, if we go on at the present rate, we should have exceeded that ten times. Prabhupāda: No, no. Another thing is, that is the problem: we do not believe in God. That is the problem. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I agree . . . Prabhupāda: No, just try . . . just hear me. Because from Vedic injunction we understand, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13): God alone provides everyone with all the necessities of life. And in your Christian faith also, you ask God, "Give us our daily bread." You accept that God is the supplier. So there is no question of population. The population may increase hundred times what it is now, God is able to provide them. But we do not believe in God. That is our main disease. That we can see in the jungles in Africa there are hundreds of millions of elephants. Who is supplying them food? They eat at a time tons, and they are also eating. They have no economic problem. Similarly one ant, he wants only a grain of sugar—still it has got problem, where to find out that grain. So the problem or no problem—because we do not believe in God. We think that we provide ourself. This idea, this atheistic idea, is a problem. That means we do not know what is God, we do not know what is God's potency, we do not know how God supplies us, because we do not know all these things. Why? Because you do not know what is God. We think God an imagination, maybe like us, a little more powerful. No. God, according to Parāśara Muni's definition, that He is completely opulent in riches, in strength, in reputation, in beauty, in knowledge and in energies. He is complete. So if we are sons of God, just like this verse says . . . (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses . . ." Prabhupāda: That is the problem: because they have forgotten God. Although they are part and parcel of God, the struggle for existence is there. (aside) The purport? Pradyumna: "In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living being is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditioned life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said sanātanaḥ ." *"According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called viṣṇu*-tattva and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the viṣṇu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are separated expansions. By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rāma, Nṛsiṁha . . . Nṛsiṁhadeva, Viṣṇumūrti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuṇṭha planets." "The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence." "By misuse of that independence one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord." Prabhupāda: This is the material problem. As soon as he forgets his relationship with God, he identifies himself with the material world, that "I am a product of this material world," the problem is created. But that is also due to his forgetfulness of God; *therefore real problem is that he has forgotten his relationship with God. Other problems, they are subsidiary, by*-product. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I agree, but don't you think it's possible that some of these other, which are, true, minor problems concerned . . . Prabhupāda: The minor problems will be solved if the major problem is solved. Just like if you have typhoid, disease is taken care of. When you are out of typhoid infection, all other symptoms accompanying typhoid fever will automatically vanish. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, in fact I do say that in my second philosophic aspect of it. Prabhupāda: So . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Maybe it is the more important. But it may . . . it might be that in the present materialistic phase of the world, these other . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, the present materialistic world, the leaders, they do not know what is God. They are, almost all the leaders, they are godless, andhā : they have been described as blind leaders, because they have no knowledge of God. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). In the Bhāgavata it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ . They do not know; *people in general, they do not know that their real problem is how to approach the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. And the leaders, so*-called leaders, who have created so many problems, they also do not know; therefore the leaders are blind and the followers are blind—so what will be their result? If a blind man leads other blind man . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. Prabhupāda: So the real problem is, as we emphasize, not whimsically; *it is the beginning of the Vedānta*-sūtra . The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ , that this human life is meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth, God—no other enquiry. But they have rejected this thing. They are embarrassed with the subsequent problems. They do not know the real problem. The real problem is to enquire, "What is God? What I am? What is my relationship with God?" The educational department or advancement of science and education—everything should be employed to solve this problem, that people are now disinterested in the matter of understanding God—they think it is frivolous. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. I fully agree. I fully agree with you, and . . . *Prabhupāda: Other problem, as you have mentioned. Therefore we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement just to manipulate this problem. People are neglecting. They are not taking very serious attention to understand about God. That is their main disease. And other problems, that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : As in this verse it is said that, "These living entities, they are part and parcel of Me." So qualitatively God and we living entities, we are one qualitatively. There cannot be any problem. As God has no problem, therefore we have no problem. This is mistaken. We have created problem in our disease condition. As soon as we come into this material world, material existence, to lord it over . . . they are creating this, all the nations, all these leaders, they are creating problems. Because every nation wants to lord it over the nature. Just like sometimes your people, British people, they wanted to expand their empire, lord it over some . . . now the Russians are trying in a different way, the Americans are trying in different way, some times before France tried, Napoleon; sometimes German tried. So they are coming and going. They cannot. It is not possible. So this endeavor to lord it over the material nature without caring for God, the Supreme Lord, that is real disease; then all other problems come. Therefore if we try to cure the real disease, godlessness, no understanding of God . . . just like you have mentioned many times, you have not given any definite idea what is God. In your statement in no place I could find that you have got a definite idea, "Here is God." That there is no such mention. So . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I would say that God, to me, is the manifestation of this divine entity, partly with myself and partly outside, one which we can approach and that gives, as I say, carries . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot give a figure, just like we give figure: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa, with fruit in His hand. He is so beautiful with a feather, peacock feather, on His head." These are the descriptions in the Vedic . . . (break) Sir Alistair Hardy: I can give many figures into which God . . . *Prabhupāda: But many figures may be, but we have to . . . if we are serious students, this Vedic literature is the original literature. Other literary figures, they came later on. From historical point of, that everyone will admit. And so far Vedic literature is concerned, it is authoritative not only for the Indians, and other nations also they are also serious student of Vedic literature. Take Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is not only meant for the Indians and Hindus, but in all other countries they have good study of Bhagavad-gītā; *they tried to understand Bhagavad*-gītā —even the Muhammadans they also; Japan also, I've seen, and what to speak of European countries. Sir Alistair Hardy: You see, I should say the same of Jesus. I should say exactly the same of Jesus as you are saying of your founder. *Prabhupāda: So from historical point of view, if you take history, then Bhagavad*-gītā comes first, five thousand years ago, whereas other things . . . if we take history, maybe two thousand years. So from historical point of view this Vedic literature is most authoritative. Not only from historical point of view; *from rational point of view. Just like the Vedānta*-sūtra , when it is proposing, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ , then nobody can defy this proposition that this human life is specially meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth. Because in other life, lower than human being, the cats and dogs, they have no power to enquire what about . . . what is God. They cannot. Therefore human life, with developed consciousness, it is his only business to know God. So far his economic problems are concerned, that does not depend on his endeavor; it is already there. Just like cat, dog, elephant, serpent, tree, insect, bird, beast—everyone got his food. Why the human beings will not have his food provided by God? Because he has left the idea that, "God maintains me"; he's thinking it's his problem. But the other living entities, animals, less intelligent, they have no problem. A small bird, he has no problem; a small insect, he has no problem. But we have created our problem due to godlessness. Therefore real problem is no knowledge about God. That is the problem of human society, at least at the present moment. Other problems are subsidiary. Because we can study others: birds, beasts, animals, they have no such problem. They do not go to do business or profession or to make factories for their livelihood, but they are getting regularly. But why we should not get? If birds and beasts, animals, ants, they can get without any endeavor their food, so why we shall not get? We are also one of the living entities, so why should we create problem? This is the . . . real problem is godlessness, that we do not depend on God; we depend on our own endeavor, exploitation of the material resources. Therefore we have created problem. Therefore these problems are due to our godlessness. Therefore real problem is to know God—then everything, all problems will be solved. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. Prabhupāda: This is not my creation. This is said in the Upaniṣad : yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand God, then everything will be understood automatically. Automatically. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavanti . Therefore real problem is how to know God. So everyone, all scholars, all educationists, all thinkers, they should concentrate now to this problem—how people will understand God? That will solve all of their problems. And we are pushing on this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, with this view, that let people understand what is God; then all other problems will be solved. So far we are concerned, you may take it or not. We have no problems, practically, because we are simply after God. We have no other business, so therefore we think we have no problem, practically. We have got about 102 centers, as big. Now our Los Angeles center . . . where is that picture? Haṁsadūta: Two hundred . . . Girl devotee: Mālatī has it. She is getting . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring that picture. Pradyumna: It is not here. She went to get it framed in the city. Prabhupāda: Oh. That . . . in each center we have got about 200 devotees—at least 50, minimum 50, highest 200—and we have got 102 centers. And mostly they are not Indians—they are Europeans and Americans, Canadians, whose standard of living is better than the Indians. But we are providing. We are providing them with place, with food, with car, with all comforts. But we have no problems. Kṛṣṇa, God, is providing us. So similarly, if we actually . . . actually we have to depend on God. It is artificially we are thinking that we can solve our problems. You cannot. *If you could solve your problem, then nobody would die. You have got the best medicine, best medical health. Why one man dies even after best medicine and best physician? What is your answer? Therefore unless God gives protection, your so*-called best physician, best medicine will not solve the problem. It is practical. Now at the present moment we have got the best physician and best medical treatment that nobody should die, so why they are dying? So how can you solve the problem of death? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well I'm afraid medicine hasn't solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot solve these problems; *therefore you have to admit that you cannot . . . you may be advanced in so many things, but the real problem, as Bhagavad*-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. Now you are in a best . . . in the midst of the best nation. Now you are getting old; I am also getting old. This is a problem. I don't want to get old, but it is coming by force and giving me trouble. Now where is the solution of this problem? One is getting disease. Where is the solution of this problem? Nobody wants to die—where is the solution of the problem? So we cannot solve all these problems, it is simply . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: One cannot prevent . . . one cannot prevent getting old, I'm afraid. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Therefore this is a problem. And nobody wants to become old, but old age is coming. Old age is coming. So it is not possible the . . . the so many problems, material problems that you are facing. That is not possible. Just like this European people, they are facing with war every ten years or every fifteen years—First World War, Second World War—and they are trying to solve it. First of all there was League of Nation, you know that. That failed. Again this United Nation. What they are doing? They cannot solve; it is not possible. That we have to admit, that we have failed to solve all the problems. Then why you have failed? Because there is no God consciousness. If one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He will simply hover on the mental plane: "Ah, let me solve this problem." And when he fails, "All right, let me try this." When he fails, "All right, let me do." This is going on. Where is the solution? There is no solution; *simply mental speculation. The so*-called endeavor for solving the problems is simply mental speculation. It is not possible to solve without the grace of God. It is just like nowadays in India, there is great scarcity of rain—not only in India; every part of the world—and it will increase, increase. It is stated in the Bhāgavat that anāvṛṣṭi (SB 12.2.9): for want of rain, for want of foodstuff, and people will be taxed very much by the government. So one side famine and scarcity of rain, and other side government's operation for taxing. In this way people will be faced with so many problems, harassed, that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest and mountain, disgusted. Where is the solution to the problem in civilized world? People are being harassed more and more by taxation. Now what if there is no rain? What you could solve? What is in your hand? Revatīnandana: Just some time back, some people were talking to me about how there was a green revolution in India. The agriculture, they developed new grains and seeds, hybrids, for producing so much grains, and they said: "Now we have this green revolution, it will solve the problems of the underdeveloped countries." Now it is not raining, so there is no green. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you are dependent on rain. So Bhagavad*-gītā says, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Unless there is rain, how you can produce grains? It is not possible. So therefore ultimately you have to depend on God. (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Where is this attempt to perform sacrifices? That is gone. That is altogether gone. So how you can expect yajñād bhavati parjanyo ? These are the nature's law. If you do not admit the favor of the Providence . . . yajña means to satisfy the Supreme, Yajña. Kṛṣṇa's another . . . God's another name is Yajña. Yajñārthāt . So we should work for Kṛṣṇa, yajñād, yajñād bhavati . . .? Pradyumna: Yajñād bhavati parjanyo . Prabhupāda: Parjanyo . Then there will be regular supply of rain. And in Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time it is said that parjanyaḥ . . . kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). We get all our necessities of life by this rainfall, and this rainfall is possible when there is performance of yajñā . So we are not following this, so how these problems can be solved? The real problem is therefore godlessness. They are defying God. *They are trying to solve all problems by their so*-called advancement of knowledge. But practically we see the so-called advancement of knowledge cannot solve any problems. The same example—that the advancement of knowledge, there is best physician, best medicine, then nobody should die. The death is there, the problem is there—then what is the use of this advancement? Therefore real problem is godlessness: they do not know what is God. Therefore all our endeavors should be engaged how to understand God scientifically. We do not say that you accept somebody as God blindly. No. That is not our . . . try to understand. There is a verse—what is that? No, I forget. That . . . idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22): by austerity, by education, by scientific advancement of knowledge, by everything, try to understand God. If you are scientist, you try to understand scientifically; if you are a philosopher, try to understand God philosophically. Because ultimate goal is God. That is the real problem. *So therefore my request to exalted personalities like you—because you are engaged in religious experience, research—so the research you may do, but real, we are giving the result of the research work: harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Unless there is God consciousness, all such research work will not give us any relief. So the scientists, the philosophers, the economists or politicians, everyone should concentrate. Let the politician understand politically God. There is everything there answered: how politically the administrative class, they can become God conscious, the members of Parliament—everything is there. Similarly scientists, they can also become God conscious; *philosophers, they can become God conscious. So that is required now, otherwise the so*-called advancement of knowledge or economic development . . . *There is no question of economic development, because after all, we are depending. If there is no rain, two, three years, five years if there is no rain, all economic development will be finished. So the rain is in the hands of God. We have to look forward, upward, when the rain is coming. Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Revatīnandana: Even now they are complaining that there is insufficient rainfall in England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They are putting signs on the buses, "Pray for rain." But will they pray to God for rain? They won't even pray for . . . Prabhupāda: Ultimately they have to pray. When there was war, Churchill asked all citizens to go to the church and pray; *similarly the Germans also, they prayed. Some of them, after their prayer, when the prayer was not fulfilled, they became atheist. Yes. They have taken God as order*-supplier. I declare war without sanction of God, and when there is reverse condition I pray to God, "Save me." Just see. God will not ask, "Did you declare the war consulting Me?" At that time there was no need of God. The politicians, by their whims, "All right, declare war." Sir Alistair Hardy: The whole of our work is directed towards increasing the knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: That is what we are setting out to do . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . by studying the action of God through the highest number of people. Prabhupāda: So in that endeavor, I think we can help you, if you really serious. We can help you. Sir Alistair Hardy: I'm hoping later on. But at the moment, we are collecting experiences from the Western world, but I am hoping to collect experiences from the East, too. The present High Commissioner for India . . . Prabhupāda: What High Commissioner of India does know? Sir Alistair Hardy: He's . . . Prabhupāda: You have to approach the real person. Sir Alistair Hardy: But he's very . . . he is interested in what we are doing. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be interested. That is official. Sir Alistair Hardy: He has offered to put me in touch with . . . Prabhupāda: If you . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . a number of people in India, but I . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Tad*-vijñānā. The Vedic injunction is, You should approach one who knows. What this commissioner, High Commissioner, this commissioner, the politicians . . . useless. I can tell you frankly this is useless attempt. Revatīnandana: Approaching a politician for knowledge of God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh, no. But he is interested. Prabhupāda: He is interested; everyone should be officially interested. Sir Alistair Hardy: But I . . . Prabhupāda: What does he know about God? Revatīnandana: Official interest, he is saying. Prabhupāda: That is official interest. Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't think so. From what . . . Prabhupāda: If you are serious about . . . about this research work, you should approach somebody who knows God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, he's given a . . . he gave me a great, er . . . manifestation . . . er . . . manifesto produced by his father, I think, of yoga . Prabhupāda: What is this yoga ? Do you know what is this yoga ? Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't know what, er . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think by such yoga system you can understand God? Are you conversant with the yoga system? Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't know. It's not my, er . . . *Prabhupāda: This is an advertisement yoga , meditation. There is a science, regular science of God. You have to understand by that science. But if you do not know what is that science, it is not possible. Therefore it is a vijñāna. Vijñāna means science. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥśrotriyaṁ (MU 1.2.12). *The . . . we have discussed these points in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then the real science, if you want to know God, you have to know from God; otherwise you cannot know God. *Sir Alistair Hardy: That is exactly what we are trying to do, understand, from the manifestations of God in the experience of present*-day people. It is just what we are doing. Prabhupāda: No. Why manifestation? Why not directly from God? Why you are after manifestation? If there is direct you can approach . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: I think we are studying directly from God, actually. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is that such opportunity, why should you give up? This Bhagavad*-gītā is direct experience from God. If you study Bhagavad-gītā carefully, you get direct experience. *Sir Alistair Hardy: I think we can get it, too, from present*-day man. *Prabhupāda: Present*-day man, that's all right. But one who knows God, that is . . . you cannot understand the science of God from a storekeeper. That is not possible. He must be well conversant: tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). You see, that is direction: *Pradyumna: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So everything, any scientific method, we have to know from the person who knows it. So why manifestation? Just try to understand directly from God, Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all scholars, all saintly persons, past and present, the Supreme Lord: āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve (BG 10.13). (aside) Find out that verse, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). *So my request is that you try to—you are research scholar—you try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and I can help you, or our students can help you, if there is any difficulty. Here is the science of God, that is a fact. (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: *"Arjuna said: You are the supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Sir Alistair Hardy: This is just as Jesus or Paul, or the other Christians, have said just the same thing. I think it is all part of the same . . . it's the same manifestation. Pradyumna: But it's completely valid, whereas . . . whereas someone . . . it depends upon his perception of God, and that has to be measured according to certain standards. You can't . . . you have to . . . you say that someone will say: "Well, I have experienced something of God," but you have to measure his perception by some standard. And the standard that is in these śāstras , or scriptures, is an absolute standard . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 27, 1973, London (Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy) Sir Alistair Hardy: (reading from notes) ". . . answer in Christian terms, but no doubt the same idea could be put into the language of other faiths. It is to bring about the kingdom of God on earth: 'Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.' " Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: Question six: "How does one achieve that goal?" "By seeking guidance, help, strength, and the power to accomplish one's humble path towards its achievement. By seeking it through prayer, through content, and the power we call God." Your question seven: "How can Christianity and Kṛṣṇa consciousness cooperate for the general benefit of the British people?" Now here I find this difficult to answer. I say: "I cannot pretend to be able to answer this, for I have no deep knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *On the other hand, I must say that I do not believe that Christianity even in co*-operation with Kṛṣṇa consciousness can more particularly benefit the British people than people of other nationalities." I wouldn't like to confine God's power to the British people; I would say to the whole peoples of the world. Now your last question, I'm afraid I haven't had time to get typed. It's written . . . Prabhupāda: That's alright. That's alright. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . it's written on your copy, but not on . . . Prabhupāda: No, I can read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: I've got a pencil copy here. Prabhupāda: I can read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: You can read it, can you? Yes. Prabhupāda: I read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: Can you read it? Yes. Shall I read it out for the others to hear? Should I read it out? I'll read it out. The eighth question . . . I was getting this typed . . . Prabhupāda: That's alright. Sir Alistair Hardy: I wrote this. I had it rough . . . "How is God realized? And what are the different features?" My answer is: "He is realized in the world through the divinely inspired actions of man. The different features are, to mention only some, acts of courage; acts of love, compassion and sacrifice; acts of creation in art, literature, music and science—and on the more personal side, the sense of the numerous experience in sacred places and situations; the joyous wonder of natural beauty, and, on rare occasions, for those who are so favored, the ecstasy of mystical experience." Well, those are short answers to your questions in all humility, and I've thought over them. You see, I have got a scientific training. I'm not so concerned as you are, perhaps, with the great utterances of the past, because I feel God is living today as much as He was in the past, and while the great words of the great prophets in our own religion, and of Jesus—also to mention the importance of St. Paul and the others—to my mind they are no more important than the manifestations of the will of God and the power of God, the voice of God, the experience of God working now, today. I think we have got to show the world that we aren't just living with a religion that is founded simply on the utterances of the past, but what is a living religion that can alter the world and that can be as vital in any country of the world. I want to see something like science. Science, as I have said, is not just confined to one country; it has a universal application. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: But I believe a religion that can embrace . . . Prabhupāda: That is real religion. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . the Kṛṣṇa, Christianity, possibly parts of Buddhism and so on, can be brought together to show mankind that here is a living force in the world quite as powerful as the force of atomic energy in science. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Sir Alistair Hardy: That is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to collect experience that will, I hope, at any rate, begin to convince the intellectual world that here is something that is really vitally important in man's make*-up. Something, as I say, as important biologically as sex. Because I think man's whole development has been through the power of God within him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which is in God, that is partially represented in man, because . . . because every living being is part and parcel of God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, that's just what I feel. *Prabhupāda: (aside) Just find out the . . . mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ ( BG 15.7). Sir Alistair Hardy: God is partly transcended, but He's inside the self, too. *Prabhupāda: Here is the Bhagavad*-gītā verse, in the Fifteenth Chapter, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ . Revatīnandana: The first part of that statement was that everything that is in God is partly represented in man. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, yes. Revatīnandana: That was the first part, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: So here that there are, of course, a number of problems of human life. Yes. There are a number of problems. Just like when a man becomes diseased, particular type of disease—suppose he is attacked with, infected with typhoid fever. So he has got so many symptoms, but the diagnosis is, doctor says that he is infected with typhoid fever. Similarly, our one problem is that we do not know what is God. Why this problem? This human form life is particularly a gift of nature for understanding God, because in the human society, there is attempt to understand God, either through Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion or Buddhist religion. In every civilized human society there is a kind of institution through which they want to know God. Therefore the problem of human life is to know God. Sir Alistair Hardy: I agree. Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no other problem. These economic problem, other problems, that is our creation. Actually, they are our artificial problem. Because our . . . what is our problem? Eating, sleeping, mating and defending. We have to eat something, we have to live somewhere, we must have our sex life and we must defend. These are four problems of living entity. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, but I am saying that these which are true as economic problems, those of overpopulation, those of . . . Prabhupāda: No. That we do not accept, that there is overpopulation. There is mismanagement. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, there is malnutrition, there is . . . Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . that is our mismanagement. Just like I will say that I have studied all over the world, I have seen, there are immense potencies. In my opinion if we, all nations of the world, as the United Nation, if you have got to really brain, and if we are really anxious to solve the problems, so far overpopulation is concerned, ten times overpopulation as at the present can be provided by the production of the world. Ten times. Sir Alistair Hardy: But in two or three hundred years' time, if we go on at the present rate, we should have exceeded that ten times. Prabhupāda: No, no. Another thing is, that is the problem: we do not believe in God. That is the problem. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I agree . . . Prabhupāda: No, just try . . . just hear me. Because from Vedic injunction we understand, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13): God alone provides everyone with all the necessities of life. And in your Christian faith also, you ask God, "Give us our daily bread." You accept that God is the supplier. So there is no question of population. The population may increase hundred times what it is now, God is able to provide them. But we do not believe in God. That is our main disease. That we can see in the jungles in Africa there are hundreds of millions of elephants. Who is supplying them food? They eat at a time tons, and they are also eating. They have no economic problem. Similarly one ant, he wants only a grain of sugar—still it has got problem, where to find out that grain. So the problem or no problem—because we do not believe in God. We think that we provide ourself. This idea, this atheistic idea, is a problem. That means we do not know what is God, we do not know what is God's potency, we do not know how God supplies us, because we do not know all these things. Why? Because you do not know what is God. We think God an imagination, maybe like us, a little more powerful. No. God, according to Parāśara Muni's definition, that He is completely opulent in riches, in strength, in reputation, in beauty, in knowledge and in energies. He is complete. So if we are sons of God, just like this verse says . . . (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses . . ." Prabhupāda: That is the problem: because they have forgotten God. Although they are part and parcel of God, the struggle for existence is there. (aside) The purport? Pradyumna: "In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living being is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditioned life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said sanātanaḥ ." *"According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called viṣṇu*-tattva and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the viṣṇu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are separated expansions. By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rāma, Nṛsiṁha . . . Nṛsiṁhadeva, Viṣṇumūrti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuṇṭha planets." "The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence." "By misuse of that independence one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord." Prabhupāda: This is the material problem. As soon as he forgets his relationship with God, he identifies himself with the material world, that "I am a product of this material world," the problem is created. But that is also due to his forgetfulness of God; *therefore real problem is that he has forgotten his relationship with God. Other problems, they are subsidiary, by*-product. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I agree, but don't you think it's possible that some of these other, which are, true, minor problems concerned . . . Prabhupāda: The minor problems will be solved if the major problem is solved. Just like if you have typhoid, disease is taken care of. When you are out of typhoid infection, all other symptoms accompanying typhoid fever will automatically vanish. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, in fact I do say that in my second philosophic aspect of it. Prabhupāda: So . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Maybe it is the more important. But it may . . . it might be that in the present materialistic phase of the world, these other . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, the present materialistic world, the leaders, they do not know what is God. They are, almost all the leaders, they are godless, andhā : they have been described as blind leaders, because they have no knowledge of God. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). In the Bhāgavata it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ . They do not know; *people in general, they do not know that their real problem is how to approach the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. And the leaders, so*-called leaders, who have created so many problems, they also do not know; therefore the leaders are blind and the followers are blind—so what will be their result? If a blind man leads other blind man . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. Prabhupāda: So the real problem is, as we emphasize, not whimsically; *it is the beginning of the Vedānta*-sūtra . The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ , that this human life is meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth, God—no other enquiry. But they have rejected this thing. They are embarrassed with the subsequent problems. They do not know the real problem. The real problem is to enquire, "What is God? What I am? What is my relationship with God?" The educational department or advancement of science and education—everything should be employed to solve this problem, that people are now disinterested in the matter of understanding God—they think it is frivolous. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. I fully agree. I fully agree with you, and . . . *Prabhupāda: Other problem, as you have mentioned. Therefore we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement just to manipulate this problem. People are neglecting. They are not taking very serious attention to understand about God. That is their main disease. And other problems, that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : As in this verse it is said that, "These living entities, they are part and parcel of Me." So qualitatively God and we living entities, we are one qualitatively. There cannot be any problem. As God has no problem, therefore we have no problem. This is mistaken. We have created problem in our disease condition. As soon as we come into this material world, material existence, to lord it over . . . they are creating this, all the nations, all these leaders, they are creating problems. Because every nation wants to lord it over the nature. Just like sometimes your people, British people, they wanted to expand their empire, lord it over some . . . now the Russians are trying in a different way, the Americans are trying in different way, some times before France tried, Napoleon; sometimes German tried. So they are coming and going. They cannot. It is not possible. So this endeavor to lord it over the material nature without caring for God, the Supreme Lord, that is real disease; then all other problems come. Therefore if we try to cure the real disease, godlessness, no understanding of God . . . just like you have mentioned many times, you have not given any definite idea what is God. In your statement in no place I could find that you have got a definite idea, "Here is God." That there is no such mention. So . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I would say that God, to me, is the manifestation of this divine entity, partly with myself and partly outside, one which we can approach and that gives, as I say, carries . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot give a figure, just like we give figure: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa, with fruit in His hand. He is so beautiful with a feather, peacock feather, on His head." These are the descriptions in the Vedic . . . (break) Sir Alistair Hardy: I can give many figures into which God . . . *Prabhupāda: But many figures may be, but we have to . . . if we are serious students, this Vedic literature is the original literature. Other literary figures, they came later on. From historical point of, that everyone will admit. And so far Vedic literature is concerned, it is authoritative not only for the Indians, and other nations also they are also serious student of Vedic literature. Take Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is not only meant for the Indians and Hindus, but in all other countries they have good study of Bhagavad-gītā; *they tried to understand Bhagavad*-gītā —even the Muhammadans they also; Japan also, I've seen, and what to speak of European countries. Sir Alistair Hardy: You see, I should say the same of Jesus. I should say exactly the same of Jesus as you are saying of your founder. *Prabhupāda: So from historical point of view, if you take history, then Bhagavad*-gītā comes first, five thousand years ago, whereas other things . . . if we take history, maybe two thousand years. So from historical point of view this Vedic literature is most authoritative. Not only from historical point of view; *from rational point of view. Just like the Vedānta*-sūtra , when it is proposing, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ , then nobody can defy this proposition that this human life is specially meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth. Because in other life, lower than human being, the cats and dogs, they have no power to enquire what about . . . what is God. They cannot. Therefore human life, with developed consciousness, it is his only business to know God. So far his economic problems are concerned, that does not depend on his endeavor; it is already there. Just like cat, dog, elephant, serpent, tree, insect, bird, beast—everyone got his food. Why the human beings will not have his food provided by God? Because he has left the idea that, "God maintains me"; he's thinking it's his problem. But the other living entities, animals, less intelligent, they have no problem. A small bird, he has no problem; a small insect, he has no problem. But we have created our problem due to godlessness. Therefore real problem is no knowledge about God. That is the problem of human society, at least at the present moment. Other problems are subsidiary. Because we can study others: birds, beasts, animals, they have no such problem. They do not go to do business or profession or to make factories for their livelihood, but they are getting regularly. But why we should not get? If birds and beasts, animals, ants, they can get without any endeavor their food, so why we shall not get? We are also one of the living entities, so why should we create problem? This is the . . . real problem is godlessness, that we do not depend on God; we depend on our own endeavor, exploitation of the material resources. Therefore we have created problem. Therefore these problems are due to our godlessness. Therefore real problem is to know God—then everything, all problems will be solved. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. Prabhupāda: This is not my creation. This is said in the Upaniṣad : yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand God, then everything will be understood automatically. Automatically. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavanti . Therefore real problem is how to know God. So everyone, all scholars, all educationists, all thinkers, they should concentrate now to this problem—how people will understand God? That will solve all of their problems. And we are pushing on this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, with this view, that let people understand what is God; then all other problems will be solved. So far we are concerned, you may take it or not. We have no problems, practically, because we are simply after God. We have no other business, so therefore we think we have no problem, practically. We have got about 102 centers, as big. Now our Los Angeles center . . . where is that picture? Haṁsadūta: Two hundred . . . Girl devotee: Mālatī has it. She is getting . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring that picture. Pradyumna: It is not here. She went to get it framed in the city. Prabhupāda: Oh. That . . . in each center we have got about 200 devotees—at least 50, minimum 50, highest 200—and we have got 102 centers. And mostly they are not Indians—they are Europeans and Americans, Canadians, whose standard of living is better than the Indians. But we are providing. We are providing them with place, with food, with car, with all comforts. But we have no problems. Kṛṣṇa, God, is providing us. So similarly, if we actually . . . actually we have to depend on God. It is artificially we are thinking that we can solve our problems. You cannot. *If you could solve your problem, then nobody would die. You have got the best medicine, best medical health. Why one man dies even after best medicine and best physician? What is your answer? Therefore unless God gives protection, your so*-called best physician, best medicine will not solve the problem. It is practical. Now at the present moment we have got the best physician and best medical treatment that nobody should die, so why they are dying? So how can you solve the problem of death? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well I'm afraid medicine hasn't solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot solve these problems; *therefore you have to admit that you cannot . . . you may be advanced in so many things, but the real problem, as Bhagavad*-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. Now you are in a best . . . in the midst of the best nation. Now you are getting old; I am also getting old. This is a problem. I don't want to get old, but it is coming by force and giving me trouble. Now where is the solution of this problem? One is getting disease. Where is the solution of this problem? Nobody wants to die—where is the solution of the problem? So we cannot solve all these problems, it is simply . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: One cannot prevent . . . one cannot prevent getting old, I'm afraid. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Therefore this is a problem. And nobody wants to become old, but old age is coming. Old age is coming. So it is not possible the . . . the so many problems, material problems that you are facing. That is not possible. Just like this European people, they are facing with war every ten years or every fifteen years—First World War, Second World War—and they are trying to solve it. First of all there was League of Nation, you know that. That failed. Again this United Nation. What they are doing? They cannot solve; it is not possible. That we have to admit, that we have failed to solve all the problems. Then why you have failed? Because there is no God consciousness. If one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He will simply hover on the mental plane: "Ah, let me solve this problem." And when he fails, "All right, let me try this." When he fails, "All right, let me do." This is going on. Where is the solution? There is no solution; *simply mental speculation. The so*-called endeavor for solving the problems is simply mental speculation. It is not possible to solve without the grace of God. It is just like nowadays in India, there is great scarcity of rain—not only in India; every part of the world—and it will increase, increase. It is stated in the Bhāgavat that anāvṛṣṭi (SB 12.2.9): for want of rain, for want of foodstuff, and people will be taxed very much by the government. So one side famine and scarcity of rain, and other side government's operation for taxing. In this way people will be faced with so many problems, harassed, that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest and mountain, disgusted. Where is the solution to the problem in civilized world? People are being harassed more and more by taxation. Now what if there is no rain? What you could solve? What is in your hand? Revatīnandana: Just some time back, some people were talking to me about how there was a green revolution in India. The agriculture, they developed new grains and seeds, hybrids, for producing so much grains, and they said: "Now we have this green revolution, it will solve the problems of the underdeveloped countries." Now it is not raining, so there is no green. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you are dependent on rain. So Bhagavad*-gītā says, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Unless there is rain, how you can produce grains? It is not possible. So therefore ultimately you have to depend on God. (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Where is this attempt to perform sacrifices? That is gone. That is altogether gone. So how you can expect yajñād bhavati parjanyo ? These are the nature's law. If you do not admit the favor of the Providence . . . yajña means to satisfy the Supreme, Yajña. Kṛṣṇa's another . . . God's another name is Yajña. Yajñārthāt . So we should work for Kṛṣṇa, yajñād, yajñād bhavati . . .? Pradyumna: Yajñād bhavati parjanyo . Prabhupāda: Parjanyo . Then there will be regular supply of rain. And in Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time it is said that parjanyaḥ . . . kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). We get all our necessities of life by this rainfall, and this rainfall is possible when there is performance of yajñā . So we are not following this, so how these problems can be solved? The real problem is therefore godlessness. They are defying God. *They are trying to solve all problems by their so*-called advancement of knowledge. But practically we see the so-called advancement of knowledge cannot solve any problems. The same example—that the advancement of knowledge, there is best physician, best medicine, then nobody should die. The death is there, the problem is there—then what is the use of this advancement? Therefore real problem is godlessness: they do not know what is God. Therefore all our endeavors should be engaged how to understand God scientifically. We do not say that you accept somebody as God blindly. No. That is not our . . . try to understand. There is a verse—what is that? No, I forget. That . . . idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22): by austerity, by education, by scientific advancement of knowledge, by everything, try to understand God. If you are scientist, you try to understand scientifically; if you are a philosopher, try to understand God philosophically. Because ultimate goal is God. That is the real problem. *So therefore my request to exalted personalities like you—because you are engaged in religious experience, research—so the research you may do, but real, we are giving the result of the research work: harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Unless there is God consciousness, all such research work will not give us any relief. So the scientists, the philosophers, the economists or politicians, everyone should concentrate. Let the politician understand politically God. There is everything there answered: how politically the administrative class, they can become God conscious, the members of Parliament—everything is there. Similarly scientists, they can also become God conscious; *philosophers, they can become God conscious. So that is required now, otherwise the so*-called advancement of knowledge or economic development . . . *There is no question of economic development, because after all, we are depending. If there is no rain, two, three years, five years if there is no rain, all economic development will be finished. So the rain is in the hands of God. We have to look forward, upward, when the rain is coming. Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Revatīnandana: Even now they are complaining that there is insufficient rainfall in England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They are putting signs on the buses, "Pray for rain." But will they pray to God for rain? They won't even pray for . . . Prabhupāda: Ultimately they have to pray. When there was war, Churchill asked all citizens to go to the church and pray; *similarly the Germans also, they prayed. Some of them, after their prayer, when the prayer was not fulfilled, they became atheist. Yes. They have taken God as order*-supplier. I declare war without sanction of God, and when there is reverse condition I pray to God, "Save me." Just see. God will not ask, "Did you declare the war consulting Me?" At that time there was no need of God. The politicians, by their whims, "All right, declare war." Sir Alistair Hardy: The whole of our work is directed towards increasing the knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: That is what we are setting out to do . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . by studying the action of God through the highest number of people. Prabhupāda: So in that endeavor, I think we can help you, if you really serious. We can help you. Sir Alistair Hardy: I'm hoping later on. But at the moment, we are collecting experiences from the Western world, but I am hoping to collect experiences from the East, too. The present High Commissioner for India . . . Prabhupāda: What High Commissioner of India does know? Sir Alistair Hardy: He's . . . Prabhupāda: You have to approach the real person. Sir Alistair Hardy: But he's very . . . he is interested in what we are doing. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be interested. That is official. Sir Alistair Hardy: He has offered to put me in touch with . . . Prabhupāda: If you . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . a number of people in India, but I . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Tad*-vijñānā. The Vedic injunction is, You should approach one who knows. What this commissioner, High Commissioner, this commissioner, the politicians . . . useless. I can tell you frankly this is useless attempt. Revatīnandana: Approaching a politician for knowledge of God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh, no. But he is interested. Prabhupāda: He is interested; everyone should be officially interested. Sir Alistair Hardy: But I . . . Prabhupāda: What does he know about God? Revatīnandana: Official interest, he is saying. Prabhupāda: That is official interest. Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't think so. From what . . . Prabhupāda: If you are serious about . . . about this research work, you should approach somebody who knows God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, he's given a . . . he gave me a great, er . . . manifestation . . . er . . . manifesto produced by his father, I think, of yoga . Prabhupāda: What is this yoga ? Do you know what is this yoga ? Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't know what, er . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think by such yoga system you can understand God? Are you conversant with the yoga system? Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't know. It's not my, er . . . *Prabhupāda: This is an advertisement yoga , meditation. There is a science, regular science of God. You have to understand by that science. But if you do not know what is that science, it is not possible. Therefore it is a vijñāna. Vijñāna means science. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥśrotriyaṁ (MU 1.2.12). *The . . . we have discussed these points in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then the real science, if you want to know God, you have to know from God; otherwise you cannot know God. *Sir Alistair Hardy: That is exactly what we are trying to do, understand, from the manifestations of God in the experience of present*-day people. It is just what we are doing. Prabhupāda: No. Why manifestation? Why not directly from God? Why you are after manifestation? If there is direct you can approach . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: I think we are studying directly from God, actually. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is that such opportunity, why should you give up? This Bhagavad*-gītā is direct experience from God. If you study Bhagavad-gītā carefully, you get direct experience. *Sir Alistair Hardy: I think we can get it, too, from present*-day man. *Prabhupāda: Present*-day man, that's all right. But one who knows God, that is . . . you cannot understand the science of God from a storekeeper. That is not possible. He must be well conversant: tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). You see, that is direction: *Pradyumna: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So everything, any scientific method, we have to know from the person who knows it. So why manifestation? Just try to understand directly from God, Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all scholars, all saintly persons, past and present, the Supreme Lord: āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve (BG 10.13). (aside) Find out that verse, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). *So my request is that you try to—you are research scholar—you try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and I can help you, or our students can help you, if there is any difficulty. Here is the science of God, that is a fact. (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: *"Arjuna said: You are the supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Sir Alistair Hardy: This is just as Jesus or Paul, or the other Christians, have said just the same thing. I think it is all part of the same . . . it's the same manifestation. Pradyumna: But it's completely valid, whereas . . . whereas someone . . . it depends upon his perception of God, and that has to be measured according to certain standards. You can't . . . you have to . . . you say that someone will say: "Well, I have experienced something of God," but you have to measure his perception by some standard. And the standard that is in these śāstras , or scriptures, is an absolute standard . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 30, 1973, London (Conversation with reporter Satish Kumar from Resurgence Magazine) Prabhupāda: . . . things are there, how you can reject one and accept another? It must be properly utilized. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if one has got money, he cannot . . . he can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā , when it is used for . . . just like in Manu*-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā , to get a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who has committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, from next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā . . . ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good. Satish Kumar: Yes. When there is right hiṁsā , then it becomes a right action. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: And therefore it is no more hiṁsā . But when the devilish . . . Prabhupāda: And actually it is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Actually it is not hiṁsā , exactly, but . . . Prabhupāda: Just like father gives a slap. Satish Kumar: Yeah, it is not hiṁsā . Prabhupāda: It is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, the hiṁsā , so*-called hiṁsā , when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, that is not hiṁsā . That is love. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Then it is hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah. Then it is hiṁsā . And I am against that hiṁsā which is not directed by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are living in, nuclear age, where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa is . . . Prabhupāda: That is hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: That is hiṁsā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: That you have understood. That is my point. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That so*-called hiṁsā , when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's . . . Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you, that when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā . It is doing good to him. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No . . . king is . . . king means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara*-devatā . The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām ( BG 4.8). Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful. Satish Kumar: But today's kings . . . Prabhupāda: Today's no . . . I'm speaking the principle. Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not. Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the king, exactly like God. Why? Because king is supposed to be representative of God. Satish Kumar: Yes. Supposed to be. *Prabhupāda: Our Vedic conception is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra , this catur-varṇa . It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa , whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa . Nowadays, that . . . such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as a śūdra , but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa . Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You see? Satish Kumar: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king . . . it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "doctor" or "medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa , he must act as a brāhmaṇa . If one is claiming to be kṣatriya , he must act as a kṣatriya . Now, what are the qualification of brāhmaṇa , what are the qualification of kṣatriya , they are there already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So it is government's duty, that you are claiming. So everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya . Sva - dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . By quality. Guṇa - karma . By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra , a vaiśya is employed and engaged as . . . just like vaiśya. Vaiśya , it is said that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya - karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas , they are in the share market, speculating. Satish Kumar: Hmm. There are no more vaiśyas . (laughs) Exactly. Prabhupāda: Industrialist. Industrialist means śūdras . So if they're śūdras , why they should claim as . . . Satish Kumar: Vaiśyas . Prabhupāda: This is government's duty, to see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya ? Your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, to give protection to the cows." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big Birlas, big, big Dalmias. You see. Satish Kumar: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas . Nehru, he was a brāhmaṇa . What did he do as a brāhmaṇa ? But he was at the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy. Satish Kumar: Hmm. When such . . . when such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following their duty . . . Prabhupāda: This is, this is . . . this world is material world. And . . . (aside) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad, sit comfortably. Woman guest: It's too hot over there. Because of the fire. Satish Kumar: She's very hot. Prabhupāda: (aside) So, you can open this. I keep little water, rheumatic. Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: You can sit down near me. Devotee: Would you like a chair? Woman guest: No. Satish Kumar: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva - dharma , their true self . . . Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment. Satish Kumar: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Any moment. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But then what is the action for the . . . practical action, practical . . . to bring it back. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Practical action . . . if you give up . . . if a brāhmaṇa gives up his sva - dharma , then it becomes a varṇa*-saṅkara. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Kula - dharma . *(aside) What is that in the Bhagavad*-gītā , we were reading yesterday? Jāti - dharma , kula - dharma . *So they produce varṇa*-saṅkara. If one does not follow the jāti - dharma , the kula - dharma , then he comes to the category of the varṇa-saṅkara. Saṅkaro narakāyaiva (BG 1.41). So when a person born in brāhmaṇa family is not acting as a brāhmaṇa , he's varṇa-saṅkara. So when there are number of people varṇa-saṅkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakāyaiva. Śaṅkaro narakāyaiva . (aside) What is that? Read that. Pradyumna: "With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice." *Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So those who are responsible for giving up kula - dharma and jāti - dharma , and creating varṇa-saṅkara . . . varṇa-saṅkara . . . just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process, daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra . So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna . So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra . So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra ? Nobody. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Nobody. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Ka . . . in this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra . No brāhmaṇa , no kṣatriya , no vaiśya . All śūdras , or less than śūdra . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Pañcama . This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform them, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible; *it is Kali*-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they'll not accept the right path . . . just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders, they are saying, "Well, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted as God?" Even big, big leaders, they did not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle . . . you know better than me. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . . . (BG 18.65), the scholars say: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. *The leaders . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti - dharma , kula - dharma . And they have created varṇa*-saṅkara . *Satish Kumar: Yes. Everybody is varṇa*-saṅkara. Prabhupāda: This is it. Therefore the only remedy is, This is the only . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings which has come. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the . . . Satish Kumar: Hmm. But what . . .? Prabhupāda: It is most scientific. Satish Kumar: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti - yoga . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma - yoga , the action, to transform the society, bring back into the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti- yoga in its preliminary stage is karma - yoga . yoga , yoga means connecting. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So karma , when you . . . Satish Kumar: yoga karma sukhośanām . Prabhupāda: Akarma sukhośanām . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are addicted to karma . Satish Kumar: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: So if you bring bhakti , karma - miśra*-bhakti , that is called karma - yoga . Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jñāna . When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jñāna-miśra-bhakti or jñāna - yoga . So these things are there. Just like karma - yoga : yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). This is karma - yoga . You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi . *Yat karoṣi : never mind, even if you are a thief, your business is stealing—you steal. Yat karoṣi means that includes everything. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad*-arpaṇam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu (BG 2.47). Satish Kumar: Mā phaleṣu. Prabhupāda: This is karma - yoga —when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Kṛṣṇa, that is karma - yoga . Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah, but karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: This is the, the point where . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to work. Satish Kumar: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You see? Satish Kumar: But . . . so . . . if our responsibility is to act without attachment with the result, I accept, I agree with it. *Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says that kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). The result must be there. Satish Kumar: Yes. But that should be . . . Prabhupāda: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot . . . Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Therefore it must be given to someone. So who is the perfect person who can take it? That is Kṛṣṇa. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So yat karoṣi , that is the . . . Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti - yoga or karma - yoga , whatever you . . . Satish Kumar: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: But Kṛṣṇa is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, and that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight? Prabhupāda: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kurukṣetra. Satish Kumar: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our . . . Haṁsadūta: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa's representative will tell you. Kṛṣṇa is not there, but Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. So you have to ask the Kṛṣṇa's representative. Satish Kumar: So that's why I have come to you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: . . . to ask you. Prabhupāda: If you think me a representative of Kṛṣṇa, I can help you. (everyone laughs) Satish Kumar: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: They're thinking, "And to become Kṛṣṇa's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult. Satish Kumar: It is not difficult. Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa . . . who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that: You understand Bengali? Satish Kumar: No. *Prabhupāda: He says that, "By My order, you become a guru ." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ājñāya , order?" That yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken." That's all. So what is the difficulty? If we speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, exactly . . . therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without my interpretation, not nonsense. No. *Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): there is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that "Here is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. There is no more superior person or authority than Kṛṣṇa." So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). We are saying the same thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: "Don't bother with any other things." Kṛṣṇa says , man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching them that always think of Kṛṣṇa, always become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, always offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. So where is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Kṛṣṇa's representative. Who is representative? *What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's book Bhagavad*-gītā and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. He'll speak his own words on the authority of Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad*-gītā ? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy—speak. Why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā ? But that is going on. They take the advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and speaks their own nonsense things. They're not representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's representative is he who exactly speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Kṛṣṇa's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Kṛṣṇa. *Satish Kumar: Hmm. No, but . . . can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), Kṛṣṇa is speaking in a context of a clear, defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us. Prabhupāda: Why not available? Satish Kumar: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, dharma means occupation. dharma is not translated as "religion." Satish Kumar: No, no. Prabhupāda: This is wrong translation. dharma means occupation. Satish Kumar: Activity? Prabhupāda: Activity, occupation. Satish Kumar: All activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says: "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it is . . ." *Satish Kumar: But He's saying sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Satish Kumar: . . . not sarva*-karmān parityajya . Prabhupāda: dharma means karma . dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa . . . Satish Kumar: But activity . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . how he can understand the Brahman? Guṇa - karma - vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So this dharma , brāhmaṇa - dharma , kṣatriya - dharma , they are divided according to karma . You cannot avoid this karma . dharma means karma , activity. Brāhmaṇa , he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma - karma svabhāva*-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas . Brahma - karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya - karma svabhāva-jam . So dharma means this is sva - dharma . Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa , his dharma . Satish Kumar: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . . Prabhupāda: karmaṇi means that you are as you are . . . Satish Kumar: No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . evādhikāras te . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Satish Kumar: 'Cause activity . . . *Prabhupāda: dharma means karma . dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma - karma svabhāva*-jam (BG 18.42). Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is karma . So brāhmaṇa's activity means brāhmaṇa . So that activity is karma . Ah? Yajana yājana paṭhana pāṭhana dāna pratigraha (SB 5.17.11 purport), these are brāhmaṇa's . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizen, to become in charitably disposed. Everything is described there: these are these kṣatriya's karma; these the brāhmaṇa's karma; these are the, eh, vaiśya's karma; these are the śūdra's karma . So sva - dharma means to execute the prescribed karma . That is sva - dharma . dharma karma . dharma means karma , but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa , you have to act as a brāhmaṇa . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya , you have to act as a kṣatriya . So acting means karma . How you can avoid karma ? Bhakti is also karma . Bhakti is also karma . Bhakti , what is this bhakti ? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma . So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock, offering maṅgala-ārati , and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then taking their class and taking prasādam , then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana , for distributing book. *Whole day, twenty*-four hours, karma . So therefore outsiders, they cannot understand that, "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing. What kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti . They think bhakti means "Just close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that. Satish Kumar: Bhakti is the quality . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma . Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was given the certificate— bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si : "You are My devotee." So everything is karma , whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity, what is the quality of activity. Yes. How you can live without being active? You are living being. That is not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of activity. That makes one karma - yogī , jñāna*-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī . Everywhere there is karma . Without karma there is nothing. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Can I ask you another . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma - miśra*-bhakti . It is not unalloyed bhakti . Satish Kumar: No, no. Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti , there is no karma . Satish Kumar: There's no karma . Yes. Prabhupāda: There's no karma . That is very high state. But originally . . . Satish Kumar: Akarma , then it comes akarma . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is very high state. But originally . . . Satish Kumar: Akarma , then it comes akarma . Prabhupāda: Ah, akarma . Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: No, more than akarma . Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa ? *Prabhupāda: More than a . . . sannyāsī is akarma , yes. Sannyāsī is also not akarma . Sannyāsa means . . . that is also described in Bhagavad*-gītā : anāśritaḥ karma - phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ (BG 6.1). That is also karma . Kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī. "It is my duty"—on this principle when one works, he is sannyāsī . He does not work for himself; he works for Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma - phalam . Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anāśritaḥ karma - phalam. Kāryam : it is my duty. Kāryam . karma karot . . . karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma . Sa sannyāsī . So how you can say in sannyāsa there is no karma ? karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done. The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma ? So when the end is Kṛṣṇa, to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Satish Kumar: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma ? Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma . Or sometimes akarma means laziness. Satish Kumar: No, not (laughs) in the sense of *Gītā* . *Prabhupāda: karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam (BG 4.17). So a karma means, that is bhakti also. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma - bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Anyatra karma - bandhanaḥ : when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma , that is karma . And when you act yajñārthe , for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma , that is akarma . So you can see. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said: "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma ." Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. But then why there are three words, karma , vikarma , akarma ? There are three. Prabhupāda: That . . . vikarma means . . . karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra . That is karma . And vikarma means when you violate, violate the injunction of the śāstra . Devotee: Violate. Prabhupāda: Violate. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the śāstra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities. Satish Kumar: Hmm. That's the vikarma . *Prabhupāda: That is vikarma . If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra , then it is sinful, that is vikarma . And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma . karma , akarma , vikarma . Yes. So generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma . That is not vikarma . Vikarma , when you act against the principles of sinful activities . . . no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ duta yatra papas catur*-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras . Illicit sex life. You cannot indulge in sex life without marriage; that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma; *you are becoming bound up, being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma . Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Otherwise, beginning from ant up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma . Satish Kumar: Hmm. Vi . . . but is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam ? Prabhupāda: Ah? Satish Kumar: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān ? Not like that? "Vi-" is generally used as to . . . a sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . to give the quality of the karma , quality of the action. Like vijñānam—jñānaṁ vijñānam; karmam vikarmam . So this a little . . . what is this root of the language? I don't . . . *Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is. Jñānam means theoretical knowledge, and vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life . . . just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña . *Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). These things are there. So everyone should act for yajña , Yajñeśavara. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya , never mind, whatever you are . . . everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Satish Kumar: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam (CC Madhya 8.58). So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama - dharma . This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇas , that is animal society; everything is chaos. Satish Kumar: You want to ask anything? Woman guest: No. (aside) (whispering) My understanding is that you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa first, and then you know what to do. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), just to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all. *Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But what happens, that some people have a social dimension, social*-political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But then it seems to me—I'm just asking—that we, when we are emphasizing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social-political dimension. So how to bring this . . . Prabhupāda: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Kṛṣṇa did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking? *Satish Kumar: No, no, I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa did not take. I'm just saying that it seems, at least sometimes, it seems that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough . . . it is not clear enough—and I'm not saying it is not there, but it's not clear enough—the social*-political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it will be clear. It is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa , this is the business of kṣatriya . So politics is the business of the kṣatriya . So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma ." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa . But if you act whimsically, then where is your surrender? And why do you become a brāhmaṇa ? Then it is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa, still, they have become leaders. Therefore whole thing is chaos. Satish Kumar: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now we are, Ann and myself and June . . . we are publishing a magazine called Resurgence . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: And . . . John Papworth came yesterday? Mahādeva: John Papworth was here a few days ago, yes. Prabhupāda: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him. Satish Kumar: Yes, he was editor before. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking—Mahādeva was also in it—but how we can bring this total understanding together? So we . . . because when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first go, they are not . . . Prabhupāda: We are presenting . . . Satish Kumar: . . . they understand the way of communication. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are asking all these students . . . when I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs) Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. *Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly, when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly. Satish Kumar: In order to clear your heart you have to chant. Prabhupāda: That is it. Satish Kumar: Right. Woman guest: What about meditating? Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation. Woman guest: It's better than the other kind? Prabhupāda: When meditation . . . meditation, dhyāna , it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That is another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) When there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear, they also hear. Woman guest (2): What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them. Devotee: But Kṛṣṇa is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Kṛṣṇa taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman guest (2): Oh, I see. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Kṛṣṇa is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (laughter) Satish Kumar: No conflict. Woman guest (2): I am not sure. I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They will support: "This killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that." They want to kill. That's all. There is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But you do not follow, at the same time you say you are Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated—I've asked so many Christian that "Why you kill?" Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that, "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretation. There is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shall not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses? Woman guest (2): But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it? he thought . . . Prabhupāda: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. (pause) If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shall not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it? Satish Kumar: True. *Prabhupāda: Just see Arjuna—you are talking of Arjuna—before fighting, before killing, so many things he's getting clarified. Ah? Kathaṁ sva*-janaṁ hantuṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . (BG 1.36). Just see. "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside) Hmm. What is that? Pradyumna: "O Janārdana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?" Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding—before killing. Not that . . . (indistinct) . . . he began to kill. No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see this is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church, although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things? Why? Satish Kumar: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious . . . Prabhupāda: Life. Satish Kumar: . . . experience in life. *Prabhupāda: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply by rubber*-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets? Satish Kumar: Same as you were saying: Nehru was not a brāhmaṇa , but only because he was called brāhmaṇa . So . . . Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone. Satish Kumar: Everyone. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra , how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. That's all. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says: So even one is śūdra , we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra . But Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ , even lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim , if he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra . There is remedy also. Satish Kumar: Even the śūdras can . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra . Why śūdra ? Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥye ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18), or even the pāpi, śudhyanti , they become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa, prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ . Everything is there in the śāstras . If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras , everything can be remodeled; *everything can be good. There is no cause of disappointment. But unfortunately, they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23). One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra , he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham : neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? That is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now, Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas . The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya . . . Satish Kumar: Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. They all accept Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). They accept, all. So how can you defy all these ācāryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense. Satish Kumar: But all these ācāryas interpret in different, different ways. Prabhupāda: No. No. Satish Kumar: No? *Prabhupāda: On the principle, they never. Just like Śaṅkarācārya and Rāmānujācārya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments in Bhagavad*-gītā . Śaṅkarācārya, although he is impersonalist, he says, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt : "Nārāyaṇa is beyond this cosmic manifestation. He's transcendental." That means he says He's person. Nārāyaṇa, as soon as Nārāyaṇa, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in a spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy . . . he started the philosophy brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Satish Kumar: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Prabhupāda: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithyā. Śaṅkarācārya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college or hospital . . . never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithyā , then why should we bother all these things? Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So who is following Śaṅkarācārya? And they say that, "We are followers of Śaṅkarācārya," and they are engaged . . . Śaṅkarācārya follower means he must become first of all sannyāsī , then talk anything else. So who is taking . . . going to do that? Satish Kumar: And all those Śaṅkara Maṭha and Śaṅkarācārya's various places in India don't live as jagat was mithyā . (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, jagan mithyā . . . we don't say jagan mithyā . Satish Kumar: No. Prabhupāda: We Vaiṣṇavas, why should I say jagan mithyā ? If God is truth, what is created by Him, that is also truth. That is also truth. Because Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). Me, "My." So why shall I take Kṛṣṇa's things as false? If Kṛṣṇa is truth, His things are also truth. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. *Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That is karma - yoga , bhakti - yoga . Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone, here is a tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say, "No, no, no, we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot touch this material thing . . ." We don't say like that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Everything has connection with Kṛṣṇa, so why shall I call it as material? Parityāga . This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvāmī: The mumukṣu , the Śaṅkarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world. Satish Kumar: He who wants liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Mumukṣu . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mumukṣu . So this mumukṣu , they're giving up these material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari*-sambandha. *Satish Kumar: Yes, hari*-sambandha. Prabhupāda: They do not know this art. Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa connection, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Now people know only "French Connection." They've forgetten Kṛṣṇa connection. (laughs) Yes, very true. Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why shall I give it up? Because the aeroplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. In every year I am wandering all over the world twice, thrice. Because if you use aeroplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up, "It is mithyā "? Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? *So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya . We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk these things underneath a tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree, nobody will come to me. (laughter) Just see. So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy. *Yukta*-vairāgya. After all, you have to practice vairāgya . Not under attachment. But in connection with Kṛṣṇa nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithyā , how do they consider mithyā . Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithyā , but they are accepting it, under a different name—"Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital . . ." They're coming to the mithyā platform under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithyā , why you are starting a school? Satish Kumar: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting a school the government is there, public is there. Why you . . . that means brahma satya you could not understand; *you are coming to the school*-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satya. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this. Give me some chanda (charity)" That's all. "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma . . . jagat is mithyā , why you are coming again to this mithyā platform? Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. So detachment is there. Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required. Satish Kumar: Anāsakta . *Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna*-vairāgya . *Satish Kumar: Hmm. The jñāna*-vairāgya. *Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna*-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti - yoga . Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti - yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo . . . janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys. Satish Kumar: Quick detachment. Prabhupāda: Ah? Immediate . . . Satish Kumar: Instant, instant, āśu vairāgya. Prabhupāda: Āśu vairāgya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke," or "I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty āśu vairāgyam . They have kicked out all these things. Practically you can see. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (laughter) This is vairāgya . They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they have got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, in the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna*-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu. Satish Kumar: Vairāgya , yes. Prabhupāda: Āśu , "very immediate." Satish Kumar: Hmm. Instant. Prabhupāda: Instant. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So bhakti - yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti - yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam . . . (SB 1.2.7). *Satish Kumar: Is this in the Gītā , in Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: No, in *Bhāgavatam* . Satish Kumar: *Bhāgavatam* , yes. Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up. Satish Kumar: But he was not in power or position. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi that, "You have so much respect now. Now you have got sva*-rāja , you give up this business. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā . People will hear you." Before starting this Movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter. Satish Kumar: But he was praying . . . he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee. Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation. Satish Kumar: Hmm? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that . . . Satish Kumar: (laughs) Prabhupāda: . . . these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya , even up to the point of death. Satish Kumar: Yes, true. Prabhupāda: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Panth . . . they stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither they did know that there is necessity of vairāgya . But Vedic philosophy says . . . all the ācāryas , they're all vairāgīs , either Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they're all sannyāsīs . Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All vairāgīs . Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairāgī . Even Lord Buddha, vairāgī . This is required. But where is the vairāgya ? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairāgya . This is the first step, vairāgya, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syat (SB 11.2.42). *That is sarva*-dharmān parityajya. This is vairāgya . Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya (BG 18.66). Satish Kumar: Yes, means vairāgya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, we are embarrassed with so many dharmas —social dharma , political dharma , national dharma , international dharma , this dharma , brāhmaṇa - dharma , śūdra - dharma , so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva - dharma . Satish Kumar: All of them. *Prabhupāda: All give up. This is vairāgya. Jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. The bhakti - yoga means, jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya there must be. (aside) Can you find that verse? (break) Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Paś . . . tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya . Without jñāna-vairāgya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then? Pradyumna: Paśyanty ātmani cātmānam . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. *Pradyumna: . . . bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. *Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. Śruta-gṛhītayā : by hearing from authority. Śruta. Gṛhītayā. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā . This is the process. Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā, paśyanty ātmānam ātmani, śruta-gṛhītayā . . . bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā (SB 1.2.12). This is the process. Satish Kumar: By devotion, by listening, you receive and see the self . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: . . . in himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, within the self. Satish Kumar: Yes. Ātmani ātmānam. (break) Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead . . ." *Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Never says by jñāna mām abhijānāti or by karma mām abhijānāti. Satish Kumar: Only bhakti , yes. Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: ". . . who is the full*-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings: the karmīs , the jñānīs , the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute Person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person." Satish Kumar: Who are those three, jñānīs . . .? Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogīs . . . Satish Kumar: And karm . . . Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs . . . Satish Kumar: And bhaktīs . Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalist. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogīs and bhaktas , they're transcendentalist. Satish Kumar: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are . . . Satish Kumar: Why? Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute. Satish Kumar: I see. They're intellectual. Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization. Satish Kumar: Ah. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from the material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogīs . They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. And the first class are the bhaktas . They talk personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti . Satish Kumar: Hmm. You feel the presence. Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking. Satish Kumar: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhaktīnī ? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee . . . she was a devotee. Satish Kumar: Yes. She had this quality of presence. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Satish Kumar: Yes. Direct dialogue. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī"? Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper? Satish Kumar: Resurgence . Prabhupāda: Resurgence . Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And that gentleman I talked with, he was also very intelligent, John. So this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because we are . . . in the jñānīs , they are also in the third grade, so how much the position of the bhaktas ? That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā : immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. *They have nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . Then he can see everyone on the equal level, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Then, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta , then he can begin bhakti . This is the position of the bhaktas —the real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas , unalloyed bhaktas . Bhaktas , they have got three stages— kaniṣṭha, madhyama and uttama . Just, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī , not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. It's a very high stage, too, reach. Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London? Satish Kumar: I have been on and off for two, three years. Prabhupāda: Ah. Satish Kumar: And I will stay two or three more years. Prabhupāda: So, you are family man? Satish Kumar: Yes, this is my wife. Prabhupāda: You're married here. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Children? Satish Kumar: One child. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Satish Kumar: And we have called our child Mukti. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing . . . (laughter) Rūpa Gosvāmī says, bhukti*-mukti-piśācī yāvat hṛdi vartate katham bhakti-sukham ātra (CC Madhya 19.176). Manifested, like that. That so long the piśācī . . . piśācī , you know? Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti . Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy." Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bhukti . And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī . Satish Kumar: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Ah, piśācī is witch. *Prabhupāda: Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī yāvad hṛdi vartate . Satish Kumar: "As long as . . .?" Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti ?" Satish Kumar: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti , and then you can . . . Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti , and then bhakti . Just as I explained: Satish Kumar: Ah. *Prabhupāda: So after being mukta . The bhakta is already mukta . That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *So a bhakta is already brahma*-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). So he hasn't got to ask for mukti . He's already mukta . Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says, *And dharmārtha*-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Dharmārtha-kāma , this is karmī's position. And mokṣa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, my Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this dharmārtha-kāma , they're at my command." Simply by bhakti . The people are after dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90), so these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Devotee: Prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). Satish Kumar: (aside) Please . . . But calling kṛṣṇārpaṇam , and calling mukti with bhukti piśācī is a rather strong expression. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, they can. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Satish Kumar: The attachment is bhukti , materialistic attachment, and mukti . . . (break) I was very impressed with the account, how . . . Prabhupāda: This will be New Gokula. Satish Kumar: New Gokula. Hmm, hmm, it's very good. Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā . . . Pradyumna: New Gayā . . . Prabhupāda: . . . New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. (pause) You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politician of India, they wanted the . . . from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some . . . always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So, so far this Movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a Movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So India cannot be happy being guided by the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ . It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi that, "You are . . ." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this Movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But then what Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request? Prabhupāda: No. Satish Kumar: No. Hmm. Prabhupāda: But it did not go to his hand; of the hands of the secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister." That's all. (laughs) Satish Kumar: Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Satish Kumar: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved? *Prabhupāda: That, that . . . Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to . . . village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal—to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal that, "Don't go to the city, town, for so*-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and be engaged in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principle—from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that. Devotee: (to guests) Some kṣīra ? Satish Kumar: Oh! Prabhupāda: That's all. Don't give more. (pause) They actually, by destroying the Manchester mill owners, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmedabad mill owners. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one eight per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth—one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. Now same thing for thirty rupees. Prabhupāda: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmedabad capitalists. That's all. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. Prabhupāda: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. Very true. Prabhupāda: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness. Satish Kumar: Quite true. And therefore nothing is working. Prabhupāda: No. (pause) Satish Kumar: And not going by car, as you said. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And you are not plucking your hairs? Satish Kumar: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair. Devotee: The whole head, you pull your hair? Satish Kumar: Whole head, yes. It's extreme form of a . . . Devotee: Austerity. Satish Kumar: Ah? Devotee: It's an austerity. Satish Kumar: Yes. And then I came to . . . I left it, and came to Benares, and . . . Prabhupāda: So when you joined this Sarvodaya movement? At Benares? Satish Kumar: Yes. I was meet . . . I met Vinoba Bhave, and . . . Prabhupāda: He's still living? Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy? *Satish Kumar: His philosophy is . . . he is a bhak . . . a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes in the village, and not going to a city. This is his principle, on the economic scale. And on the spiritual and religious, he's a brahma*-vidyā . He's seeking brahma-vidyā . And he has, in Paunar, Brahma-vidya Mandir. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: So he is . . . he is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti. Satish Kumar: Ah? Prabhupāda: Mukti . Satish Kumar: Mukti , yes. Prabhupāda: Piśācī . Satish Kumar: Hmm? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī . Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . of men. Bhukti and mukti . So they have manufactured so many "isms," bhukti *-ism and mukti -ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Give up all these 'ism.' Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love. Satish Kumar: Yes. To abhi . . . (So now . . .) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Satish Kumar: Agya . . . (I shall leave . . .) Prabhupāda: Phir aiye. (Please come again.) Satish Kumar: Ha. Chaliye. (Surely. (aside) Let us go.) (end) Conversation -- July 30, 1973, London (Conversation with reporter Satish Kumar from Resurgence Magazine) Prabhupāda: . . . things are there, how you can reject one and accept another? It must be properly utilized. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if one has got money, he cannot . . . he can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā , when it is used for . . . just like in Manu*-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā , to get a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who has committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, from next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā . . . ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good. Satish Kumar: Yes. When there is right hiṁsā , then it becomes a right action. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: And therefore it is no more hiṁsā . But when the devilish . . . Prabhupāda: And actually it is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Actually it is not hiṁsā , exactly, but . . . Prabhupāda: Just like father gives a slap. Satish Kumar: Yeah, it is not hiṁsā . Prabhupāda: It is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, the hiṁsā , so*-called hiṁsā , when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, that is not hiṁsā . That is love. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Then it is hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah. Then it is hiṁsā . And I am against that hiṁsā which is not directed by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are living in, nuclear age, where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa is . . . Prabhupāda: That is hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: That is hiṁsā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: That you have understood. That is my point. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That so*-called hiṁsā , when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's . . . Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you, that when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā . It is doing good to him. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No . . . king is . . . king means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara*-devatā . The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām ( BG 4.8). Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful. Satish Kumar: But today's kings . . . Prabhupāda: Today's no . . . I'm speaking the principle. Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not. Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the king, exactly like God. Why? Because king is supposed to be representative of God. Satish Kumar: Yes. Supposed to be. *Prabhupāda: Our Vedic conception is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra , this catur-varṇa . It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa , whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa . Nowadays, that . . . such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as a śūdra , but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa . Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You see? Satish Kumar: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king . . . it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "doctor" or "medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa , he must act as a brāhmaṇa . If one is claiming to be kṣatriya , he must act as a kṣatriya . Now, what are the qualification of brāhmaṇa , what are the qualification of kṣatriya , they are there already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So it is government's duty, that you are claiming. So everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya . Sva - dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . By quality. Guṇa - karma . By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra , a vaiśya is employed and engaged as . . . just like vaiśya. Vaiśya , it is said that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya - karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas , they are in the share market, speculating. Satish Kumar: Hmm. There are no more vaiśyas . (laughs) Exactly. Prabhupāda: Industrialist. Industrialist means śūdras . So if they're śūdras , why they should claim as . . . Satish Kumar: Vaiśyas . Prabhupāda: This is government's duty, to see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya ? Your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, to give protection to the cows." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big Birlas, big, big Dalmias. You see. Satish Kumar: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas . Nehru, he was a brāhmaṇa . What did he do as a brāhmaṇa ? But he was at the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy. Satish Kumar: Hmm. When such . . . when such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following their duty . . . Prabhupāda: This is, this is . . . this world is material world. And . . . (aside) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad, sit comfortably. Woman guest: It's too hot over there. Because of the fire. Satish Kumar: She's very hot. Prabhupāda: (aside) So, you can open this. I keep little water, rheumatic. Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: You can sit down near me. Devotee: Would you like a chair? Woman guest: No. Satish Kumar: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva - dharma , their true self . . . Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment. Satish Kumar: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Any moment. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But then what is the action for the . . . practical action, practical . . . to bring it back. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Practical action . . . if you give up . . . if a brāhmaṇa gives up his sva - dharma , then it becomes a varṇa*-saṅkara. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Kula - dharma . *(aside) What is that in the Bhagavad*-gītā , we were reading yesterday? Jāti - dharma , kula - dharma . *So they produce varṇa*-saṅkara. If one does not follow the jāti - dharma , the kula - dharma , then he comes to the category of the varṇa-saṅkara. Saṅkaro narakāyaiva (BG 1.41). So when a person born in brāhmaṇa family is not acting as a brāhmaṇa , he's varṇa-saṅkara. So when there are number of people varṇa-saṅkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakāyaiva. Śaṅkaro narakāyaiva . (aside) What is that? Read that. Pradyumna: "With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice." *Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So those who are responsible for giving up kula - dharma and jāti - dharma , and creating varṇa-saṅkara . . . varṇa-saṅkara . . . just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process, daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra . So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna . So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra . So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra ? Nobody. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Nobody. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Ka . . . in this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra . No brāhmaṇa , no kṣatriya , no vaiśya . All śūdras , or less than śūdra . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Pañcama . This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform them, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible; *it is Kali*-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they'll not accept the right path . . . just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders, they are saying, "Well, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted as God?" Even big, big leaders, they did not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle . . . you know better than me. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . . . (BG 18.65), the scholars say: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. *The leaders . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti - dharma , kula - dharma . And they have created varṇa*-saṅkara . *Satish Kumar: Yes. Everybody is varṇa*-saṅkara. Prabhupāda: This is it. Therefore the only remedy is, This is the only . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings which has come. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the . . . Satish Kumar: Hmm. But what . . .? Prabhupāda: It is most scientific. Satish Kumar: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti - yoga . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma - yoga , the action, to transform the society, bring back into the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti- yoga in its preliminary stage is karma - yoga . yoga , yoga means connecting. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So karma , when you . . . Satish Kumar: yoga karma sukhośanām . Prabhupāda: Akarma sukhośanām . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are addicted to karma . Satish Kumar: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: So if you bring bhakti , karma - miśra*-bhakti , that is called karma - yoga . Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jñāna . When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jñāna-miśra-bhakti or jñāna - yoga . So these things are there. Just like karma - yoga : yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). This is karma - yoga . You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi . *Yat karoṣi : never mind, even if you are a thief, your business is stealing—you steal. Yat karoṣi means that includes everything. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad*-arpaṇam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu (BG 2.47). Satish Kumar: Mā phaleṣu. Prabhupāda: This is karma - yoga —when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Kṛṣṇa, that is karma - yoga . Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah, but karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: This is the, the point where . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to work. Satish Kumar: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You see? Satish Kumar: But . . . so . . . if our responsibility is to act without attachment with the result, I accept, I agree with it. *Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says that kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). The result must be there. Satish Kumar: Yes. But that should be . . . Prabhupāda: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot . . . Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Therefore it must be given to someone. So who is the perfect person who can take it? That is Kṛṣṇa. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So yat karoṣi , that is the . . . Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti - yoga or karma - yoga , whatever you . . . Satish Kumar: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: But Kṛṣṇa is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, and that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight? Prabhupāda: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kurukṣetra. Satish Kumar: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our . . . Haṁsadūta: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa's representative will tell you. Kṛṣṇa is not there, but Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. So you have to ask the Kṛṣṇa's representative. Satish Kumar: So that's why I have come to you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: . . . to ask you. Prabhupāda: If you think me a representative of Kṛṣṇa, I can help you. (everyone laughs) Satish Kumar: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: They're thinking, "And to become Kṛṣṇa's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult. Satish Kumar: It is not difficult. Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa . . . who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that: You understand Bengali? Satish Kumar: No. *Prabhupāda: He says that, "By My order, you become a guru ." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ājñāya , order?" That yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken." That's all. So what is the difficulty? If we speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, exactly . . . therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without my interpretation, not nonsense. No. *Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): there is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that "Here is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. There is no more superior person or authority than Kṛṣṇa." So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). We are saying the same thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: "Don't bother with any other things." Kṛṣṇa says , man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching them that always think of Kṛṣṇa, always become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, always offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. So where is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Kṛṣṇa's representative. Who is representative? *What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's book Bhagavad*-gītā and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. He'll speak his own words on the authority of Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad*-gītā ? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy—speak. Why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā ? But that is going on. They take the advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and speaks their own nonsense things. They're not representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's representative is he who exactly speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Kṛṣṇa's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Kṛṣṇa. *Satish Kumar: Hmm. No, but . . . can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), Kṛṣṇa is speaking in a context of a clear, defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us. Prabhupāda: Why not available? Satish Kumar: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, dharma means occupation. dharma is not translated as "religion." Satish Kumar: No, no. Prabhupāda: This is wrong translation. dharma means occupation. Satish Kumar: Activity? Prabhupāda: Activity, occupation. Satish Kumar: All activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says: "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it is . . ." *Satish Kumar: But He's saying sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Satish Kumar: . . . not sarva*-karmān parityajya . Prabhupāda: dharma means karma . dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa . . . Satish Kumar: But activity . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . how he can understand the Brahman? Guṇa - karma - vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So this dharma , brāhmaṇa - dharma , kṣatriya - dharma , they are divided according to karma . You cannot avoid this karma . dharma means karma , activity. Brāhmaṇa , he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma - karma svabhāva*-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas . Brahma - karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya - karma svabhāva-jam . So dharma means this is sva - dharma . Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa , his dharma . Satish Kumar: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . . Prabhupāda: karmaṇi means that you are as you are . . . Satish Kumar: No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . evādhikāras te . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Satish Kumar: 'Cause activity . . . *Prabhupāda: dharma means karma . dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma - karma svabhāva*-jam (BG 18.42). Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is karma . So brāhmaṇa's activity means brāhmaṇa . So that activity is karma . Ah? Yajana yājana paṭhana pāṭhana dāna pratigraha (SB 5.17.11 purport), these are brāhmaṇa's . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizen, to become in charitably disposed. Everything is described there: these are these kṣatriya's karma; these the brāhmaṇa's karma; these are the, eh, vaiśya's karma; these are the śūdra's karma . So sva - dharma means to execute the prescribed karma . That is sva - dharma . dharma karma . dharma means karma , but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa , you have to act as a brāhmaṇa . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya , you have to act as a kṣatriya . So acting means karma . How you can avoid karma ? Bhakti is also karma . Bhakti is also karma . Bhakti , what is this bhakti ? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma . So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock, offering maṅgala-ārati , and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then taking their class and taking prasādam , then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana , for distributing book. *Whole day, twenty*-four hours, karma . So therefore outsiders, they cannot understand that, "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing. What kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti . They think bhakti means "Just close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that. Satish Kumar: Bhakti is the quality . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma . Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was given the certificate— bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si : "You are My devotee." So everything is karma , whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity, what is the quality of activity. Yes. How you can live without being active? You are living being. That is not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of activity. That makes one karma - yogī , jñāna*-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī . Everywhere there is karma . Without karma there is nothing. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Can I ask you another . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma - miśra*-bhakti . It is not unalloyed bhakti . Satish Kumar: No, no. Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti , there is no karma . Satish Kumar: There's no karma . Yes. Prabhupāda: There's no karma . That is very high state. But originally . . . Satish Kumar: Akarma , then it comes akarma . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is very high state. But originally . . . Satish Kumar: Akarma , then it comes akarma . Prabhupāda: Ah, akarma . Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: No, more than akarma . Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa ? *Prabhupāda: More than a . . . sannyāsī is akarma , yes. Sannyāsī is also not akarma . Sannyāsa means . . . that is also described in Bhagavad*-gītā : anāśritaḥ karma - phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ (BG 6.1). That is also karma . Kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī. "It is my duty"—on this principle when one works, he is sannyāsī . He does not work for himself; he works for Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma - phalam . Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anāśritaḥ karma - phalam. Kāryam : it is my duty. Kāryam . karma karot . . . karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma . Sa sannyāsī . So how you can say in sannyāsa there is no karma ? karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done. The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma ? So when the end is Kṛṣṇa, to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Satish Kumar: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma ? Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma . Or sometimes akarma means laziness. Satish Kumar: No, not (laughs) in the sense of *Gītā* . *Prabhupāda: karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam (BG 4.17). So a karma means, that is bhakti also. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma - bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Anyatra karma - bandhanaḥ : when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma , that is karma . And when you act yajñārthe , for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma , that is akarma . So you can see. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said: "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma ." Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. But then why there are three words, karma , vikarma , akarma ? There are three. Prabhupāda: That . . . vikarma means . . . karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra . That is karma . And vikarma means when you violate, violate the injunction of the śāstra . Devotee: Violate. Prabhupāda: Violate. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the śāstra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities. Satish Kumar: Hmm. That's the vikarma . *Prabhupāda: That is vikarma . If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra , then it is sinful, that is vikarma . And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma . karma , akarma , vikarma . Yes. So generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma . That is not vikarma . Vikarma , when you act against the principles of sinful activities . . . no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ duta yatra papas catur*-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras . Illicit sex life. You cannot indulge in sex life without marriage; that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma; *you are becoming bound up, being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma . Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Otherwise, beginning from ant up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma . Satish Kumar: Hmm. Vi . . . but is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam ? Prabhupāda: Ah? Satish Kumar: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān ? Not like that? "Vi-" is generally used as to . . . a sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . to give the quality of the karma , quality of the action. Like vijñānam—jñānaṁ vijñānam; karmam vikarmam . So this a little . . . what is this root of the language? I don't . . . *Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is. Jñānam means theoretical knowledge, and vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life . . . just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña . *Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). These things are there. So everyone should act for yajña , Yajñeśavara. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya , never mind, whatever you are . . . everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Satish Kumar: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam (CC Madhya 8.58). So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama - dharma . This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇas , that is animal society; everything is chaos. Satish Kumar: You want to ask anything? Woman guest: No. (aside) (whispering) My understanding is that you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa first, and then you know what to do. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), just to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all. *Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But what happens, that some people have a social dimension, social*-political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But then it seems to me—I'm just asking—that we, when we are emphasizing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social-political dimension. So how to bring this . . . Prabhupāda: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Kṛṣṇa did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking? *Satish Kumar: No, no, I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa did not take. I'm just saying that it seems, at least sometimes, it seems that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough . . . it is not clear enough—and I'm not saying it is not there, but it's not clear enough—the social*-political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it will be clear. It is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa , this is the business of kṣatriya . So politics is the business of the kṣatriya . So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma ." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa . But if you act whimsically, then where is your surrender? And why do you become a brāhmaṇa ? Then it is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa, still, they have become leaders. Therefore whole thing is chaos. Satish Kumar: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now we are, Ann and myself and June . . . we are publishing a magazine called Resurgence . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: And . . . John Papworth came yesterday? Mahādeva: John Papworth was here a few days ago, yes. Prabhupāda: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him. Satish Kumar: Yes, he was editor before. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking—Mahādeva was also in it—but how we can bring this total understanding together? So we . . . because when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first go, they are not . . . Prabhupāda: We are presenting . . . Satish Kumar: . . . they understand the way of communication. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are asking all these students . . . when I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs) Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. *Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly, when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly. Satish Kumar: In order to clear your heart you have to chant. Prabhupāda: That is it. Satish Kumar: Right. Woman guest: What about meditating? Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation. Woman guest: It's better than the other kind? Prabhupāda: When meditation . . . meditation, dhyāna , it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That is another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) When there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear, they also hear. Woman guest (2): What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them. Devotee: But Kṛṣṇa is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Kṛṣṇa taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman guest (2): Oh, I see. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Kṛṣṇa is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (laughter) Satish Kumar: No conflict. Woman guest (2): I am not sure. I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They will support: "This killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that." They want to kill. That's all. There is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But you do not follow, at the same time you say you are Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated—I've asked so many Christian that "Why you kill?" Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that, "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretation. There is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shall not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses? Woman guest (2): But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it? he thought . . . Prabhupāda: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. (pause) If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shall not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it? Satish Kumar: True. *Prabhupāda: Just see Arjuna—you are talking of Arjuna—before fighting, before killing, so many things he's getting clarified. Ah? Kathaṁ sva*-janaṁ hantuṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . (BG 1.36). Just see. "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside) Hmm. What is that? Pradyumna: "O Janārdana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?" Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding—before killing. Not that . . . (indistinct) . . . he began to kill. No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see this is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church, although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things? Why? Satish Kumar: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious . . . Prabhupāda: Life. Satish Kumar: . . . experience in life. *Prabhupāda: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply by rubber*-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets? Satish Kumar: Same as you were saying: Nehru was not a brāhmaṇa , but only because he was called brāhmaṇa . So . . . Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone. Satish Kumar: Everyone. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra , how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. That's all. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says: So even one is śūdra , we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra . But Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ , even lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim , if he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra . There is remedy also. Satish Kumar: Even the śūdras can . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra . Why śūdra ? Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥye ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18), or even the pāpi, śudhyanti , they become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa, prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ . Everything is there in the śāstras . If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras , everything can be remodeled; *everything can be good. There is no cause of disappointment. But unfortunately, they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23). One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra , he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham : neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? That is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now, Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas . The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya . . . Satish Kumar: Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. They all accept Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). They accept, all. So how can you defy all these ācāryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense. Satish Kumar: But all these ācāryas interpret in different, different ways. Prabhupāda: No. No. Satish Kumar: No? *Prabhupāda: On the principle, they never. Just like Śaṅkarācārya and Rāmānujācārya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments in Bhagavad*-gītā . Śaṅkarācārya, although he is impersonalist, he says, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt : "Nārāyaṇa is beyond this cosmic manifestation. He's transcendental." That means he says He's person. Nārāyaṇa, as soon as Nārāyaṇa, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in a spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy . . . he started the philosophy brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Satish Kumar: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Prabhupāda: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithyā. Śaṅkarācārya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college or hospital . . . never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithyā , then why should we bother all these things? Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So who is following Śaṅkarācārya? And they say that, "We are followers of Śaṅkarācārya," and they are engaged . . . Śaṅkarācārya follower means he must become first of all sannyāsī , then talk anything else. So who is taking . . . going to do that? Satish Kumar: And all those Śaṅkara Maṭha and Śaṅkarācārya's various places in India don't live as jagat was mithyā . (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, jagan mithyā . . . we don't say jagan mithyā . Satish Kumar: No. Prabhupāda: We Vaiṣṇavas, why should I say jagan mithyā ? If God is truth, what is created by Him, that is also truth. That is also truth. Because Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). Me, "My." So why shall I take Kṛṣṇa's things as false? If Kṛṣṇa is truth, His things are also truth. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. *Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That is karma - yoga , bhakti - yoga . Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone, here is a tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say, "No, no, no, we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot touch this material thing . . ." We don't say like that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Everything has connection with Kṛṣṇa, so why shall I call it as material? Parityāga . This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvāmī: The mumukṣu , the Śaṅkarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world. Satish Kumar: He who wants liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Mumukṣu . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mumukṣu . So this mumukṣu , they're giving up these material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari*-sambandha. *Satish Kumar: Yes, hari*-sambandha. Prabhupāda: They do not know this art. Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa connection, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Now people know only "French Connection." They've forgetten Kṛṣṇa connection. (laughs) Yes, very true. Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why shall I give it up? Because the aeroplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. In every year I am wandering all over the world twice, thrice. Because if you use aeroplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up, "It is mithyā "? Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? *So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya . We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk these things underneath a tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree, nobody will come to me. (laughter) Just see. So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy. *Yukta*-vairāgya. After all, you have to practice vairāgya . Not under attachment. But in connection with Kṛṣṇa nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithyā , how do they consider mithyā . Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithyā , but they are accepting it, under a different name—"Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital . . ." They're coming to the mithyā platform under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithyā , why you are starting a school? Satish Kumar: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting a school the government is there, public is there. Why you . . . that means brahma satya you could not understand; *you are coming to the school*-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satya. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this. Give me some chanda (charity)" That's all. "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma . . . jagat is mithyā , why you are coming again to this mithyā platform? Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. So detachment is there. Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required. Satish Kumar: Anāsakta . *Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna*-vairāgya . *Satish Kumar: Hmm. The jñāna*-vairāgya. *Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna*-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti - yoga . Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti - yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo . . . janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys. Satish Kumar: Quick detachment. Prabhupāda: Ah? Immediate . . . Satish Kumar: Instant, instant, āśu vairāgya. Prabhupāda: Āśu vairāgya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke," or "I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty āśu vairāgyam . They have kicked out all these things. Practically you can see. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (laughter) This is vairāgya . They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they have got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, in the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna*-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu. Satish Kumar: Vairāgya , yes. Prabhupāda: Āśu , "very immediate." Satish Kumar: Hmm. Instant. Prabhupāda: Instant. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So bhakti - yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti - yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam . . . (SB 1.2.7). *Satish Kumar: Is this in the Gītā , in Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: No, in *Bhāgavatam* . Satish Kumar: *Bhāgavatam* , yes. Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up. Satish Kumar: But he was not in power or position. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi that, "You have so much respect now. Now you have got sva*-rāja , you give up this business. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā . People will hear you." Before starting this Movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter. Satish Kumar: But he was praying . . . he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee. Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation. Satish Kumar: Hmm? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that . . . Satish Kumar: (laughs) Prabhupāda: . . . these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya , even up to the point of death. Satish Kumar: Yes, true. Prabhupāda: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Panth . . . they stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither they did know that there is necessity of vairāgya . But Vedic philosophy says . . . all the ācāryas , they're all vairāgīs , either Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they're all sannyāsīs . Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All vairāgīs . Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairāgī . Even Lord Buddha, vairāgī . This is required. But where is the vairāgya ? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairāgya . This is the first step, vairāgya, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syat (SB 11.2.42). *That is sarva*-dharmān parityajya. This is vairāgya . Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya (BG 18.66). Satish Kumar: Yes, means vairāgya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, we are embarrassed with so many dharmas —social dharma , political dharma , national dharma , international dharma , this dharma , brāhmaṇa - dharma , śūdra - dharma , so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva - dharma . Satish Kumar: All of them. *Prabhupāda: All give up. This is vairāgya. Jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. The bhakti - yoga means, jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya there must be. (aside) Can you find that verse? (break) Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Paś . . . tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya . Without jñāna-vairāgya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then? Pradyumna: Paśyanty ātmani cātmānam . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. *Pradyumna: . . . bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. *Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. Śruta-gṛhītayā : by hearing from authority. Śruta. Gṛhītayā. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā . This is the process. Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā, paśyanty ātmānam ātmani, śruta-gṛhītayā . . . bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā (SB 1.2.12). This is the process. Satish Kumar: By devotion, by listening, you receive and see the self . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: . . . in himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, within the self. Satish Kumar: Yes. Ātmani ātmānam. (break) Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead . . ." *Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Never says by jñāna mām abhijānāti or by karma mām abhijānāti. Satish Kumar: Only bhakti , yes. Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: ". . . who is the full*-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings: the karmīs , the jñānīs , the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute Person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person." Satish Kumar: Who are those three, jñānīs . . .? Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogīs . . . Satish Kumar: And karm . . . Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs . . . Satish Kumar: And bhaktīs . Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalist. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogīs and bhaktas , they're transcendentalist. Satish Kumar: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are . . . Satish Kumar: Why? Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute. Satish Kumar: I see. They're intellectual. Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization. Satish Kumar: Ah. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from the material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogīs . They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. And the first class are the bhaktas . They talk personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti . Satish Kumar: Hmm. You feel the presence. Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking. Satish Kumar: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhaktīnī ? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee . . . she was a devotee. Satish Kumar: Yes. She had this quality of presence. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Satish Kumar: Yes. Direct dialogue. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī"? Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper? Satish Kumar: Resurgence . Prabhupāda: Resurgence . Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And that gentleman I talked with, he was also very intelligent, John. So this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because we are . . . in the jñānīs , they are also in the third grade, so how much the position of the bhaktas ? That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā : immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. *They have nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . Then he can see everyone on the equal level, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Then, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta , then he can begin bhakti . This is the position of the bhaktas —the real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas , unalloyed bhaktas . Bhaktas , they have got three stages— kaniṣṭha, madhyama and uttama . Just, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī , not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. It's a very high stage, too, reach. Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London? Satish Kumar: I have been on and off for two, three years. Prabhupāda: Ah. Satish Kumar: And I will stay two or three more years. Prabhupāda: So, you are family man? Satish Kumar: Yes, this is my wife. Prabhupāda: You're married here. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Children? Satish Kumar: One child. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Satish Kumar: And we have called our child Mukti. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing . . . (laughter) Rūpa Gosvāmī says, bhukti*-mukti-piśācī yāvat hṛdi vartate katham bhakti-sukham ātra (CC Madhya 19.176). Manifested, like that. That so long the piśācī . . . piśācī , you know? Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti . Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy." Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bhukti . And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī . Satish Kumar: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Ah, piśācī is witch. *Prabhupāda: Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī yāvad hṛdi vartate . Satish Kumar: "As long as . . .?" Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti ?" Satish Kumar: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti , and then you can . . . Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti , and then bhakti . Just as I explained: Satish Kumar: Ah. *Prabhupāda: So after being mukta . The bhakta is already mukta . That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *So a bhakta is already brahma*-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). So he hasn't got to ask for mukti . He's already mukta . Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says, *And dharmārtha*-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Dharmārtha-kāma , this is karmī's position. And mokṣa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, my Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this dharmārtha-kāma , they're at my command." Simply by bhakti . The people are after dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90), so these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Devotee: Prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). Satish Kumar: (aside) Please . . . But calling kṛṣṇārpaṇam , and calling mukti with bhukti piśācī is a rather strong expression. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, they can. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Satish Kumar: The attachment is bhukti , materialistic attachment, and mukti . . . (break) I was very impressed with the account, how . . . Prabhupāda: This will be New Gokula. Satish Kumar: New Gokula. Hmm, hmm, it's very good. Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā . . . Pradyumna: New Gayā . . . Prabhupāda: . . . New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. (pause) You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politician of India, they wanted the . . . from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some . . . always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So, so far this Movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a Movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So India cannot be happy being guided by the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ . It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi that, "You are . . ." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this Movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But then what Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request? Prabhupāda: No. Satish Kumar: No. Hmm. Prabhupāda: But it did not go to his hand; of the hands of the secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister." That's all. (laughs) Satish Kumar: Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Satish Kumar: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved? *Prabhupāda: That, that . . . Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to . . . village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal—to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal that, "Don't go to the city, town, for so*-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and be engaged in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principle—from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that. Devotee: (to guests) Some kṣīra ? Satish Kumar: Oh! Prabhupāda: That's all. Don't give more. (pause) They actually, by destroying the Manchester mill owners, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmedabad mill owners. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one eight per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth—one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. Now same thing for thirty rupees. Prabhupāda: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmedabad capitalists. That's all. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. Prabhupāda: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. Very true. Prabhupāda: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness. Satish Kumar: Quite true. And therefore nothing is working. Prabhupāda: No. (pause) Satish Kumar: And not going by car, as you said. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And you are not plucking your hairs? Satish Kumar: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair. Devotee: The whole head, you pull your hair? Satish Kumar: Whole head, yes. It's extreme form of a . . . Devotee: Austerity. Satish Kumar: Ah? Devotee: It's an austerity. Satish Kumar: Yes. And then I came to . . . I left it, and came to Benares, and . . . Prabhupāda: So when you joined this Sarvodaya movement? At Benares? Satish Kumar: Yes. I was meet . . . I met Vinoba Bhave, and . . . Prabhupāda: He's still living? Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy? *Satish Kumar: His philosophy is . . . he is a bhak . . . a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes in the village, and not going to a city. This is his principle, on the economic scale. And on the spiritual and religious, he's a brahma*-vidyā . He's seeking brahma-vidyā . And he has, in Paunar, Brahma-vidya Mandir. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: So he is . . . he is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti. Satish Kumar: Ah? Prabhupāda: Mukti . Satish Kumar: Mukti , yes. Prabhupāda: Piśācī . Satish Kumar: Hmm? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī . Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . of men. Bhukti and mukti . So they have manufactured so many "isms," bhukti *-ism and mukti -ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Give up all these 'ism.' Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love. Satish Kumar: Yes. To abhi . . . (So now . . .) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Satish Kumar: Agya . . . (I shall leave . . .) Prabhupāda: Phir aiye. (Please come again.) Satish Kumar: Ha. Chaliye. (Surely. (aside) Let us go.) (end) Conversation -- August 3, 1973, London (Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother, Mrs. Critchley and Jesuit Priest) Prabhupāda: The aeroplane botheration (sound of aeroplane flying over) was not in Switzerland. They do not come there for fear of rising . . . Mother (Mrs. Critchley): They fly higher. Prabhupāda: . . . peaks. Peaks. Jesuit Priest: Mountains. Prabhupāda: So they don't come there. Mother: No, no. Prabhupāda: That was the only place in the world there was no such sound. Otherwise, everywhere. In America we have got so many temples. Even in West Virginia, hilly tract, there is also aeroplane. But less sound. Here it is near London, there must be. Yes. Jesuit Priest: Have you met Mother Teresa? Prabhupāda: Who is Mother Teresa? Mahādeva: She's a Christian mystic. Revatīnandana: She's a Christian nun, and she has a mission in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saint Theresa? Revatīnandana: No, Mother Teresa. She's living there now. Jesuit Priest: She's an Albanian nun who works in India and is . . . and has captivated the whole world just by the fantastic work she's done and is doing amongst the down, the outcastes and the desperately poor in the cities of India, particularly in Calcutta. And she's got disciples, young men, young women, joining her, where most of the other religious orders are desperately short. And the youth is being captivated by her, and they can't cope with the numbers wanting to join. And she was given a big speech in the Guild Hall in London and was the first person presented with an enormous sum of money by the Duke of Edinburgh, voted by the World Council of Churches as the outstanding religious person in the world. And people at her speech who heard, it brought the audience to its feet. And all she said in her speech was nothing more except "Love, love, love, love. Just go on giving and look for nothing back," which made an enormous impact, probably the greatest impact that anybody's making at present, in the world at present. Mother: How old is she? About eighty? Jesuit Priest: No, seventy . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization. Mother: In India, you mean. You're talking of India now. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Mother: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Mother: Yes. What about India? I mean, do they leave the villages? Prabhupāda: India, actually, they do so. Mother: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To give more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set*-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering . . . they are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollar," although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollar? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society. Mother: Yes. But I think one has to be clever enough not to let people cheat you. Prabhupāda: Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city. Mother: But we have to teach our young to be able to define between those who cheat and those who . . . be able to tell people who . . . Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating . . . Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way. Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world. Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God. Mother: I see he's happy. But, you know, he came from a very happy home. So he should be happy, shouldn't he? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Very happy home, brothers and sisters. And we've all been very happy. And I hope he will remain happy. Prabhupāda: He's still happier. Mother: Yes, I can see. Prabhupāda: He was happy; now he's happier. That is the difference. Mother: Yes. Oh, I don't think he's happier. (laughter) You are? I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: You are not happier. Mother: I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: Because your son has come here, you may not be happier. But he is happier. Mother: Oh, you're saying this. I'm not saying this. I'm very disappointed that he is not continuing with education. I'm not sorry that . . . I'm happy for his happiness, wherever he is. Prabhupāda: But what is the . . . what is the purpose of education? Mother: You are a cultured man. You're educated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Did you not learn . . .? Who gave you the talent to translate your Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Who gave you the talent, Father? Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking that what is the best part of education? So far my school, college education is concerned, that is not being used here. Mother: Oh, but you're cultured. You, in your old age, are getting tremendous comfort from being able to read and understand what the world is doing, the goodness of your books, and you have . . . you're able to understand the spiritual way of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . Mother: If you couldn't . . . if you hadn't been educated, Father, well, how would you be able to have . . .? Prabhupāda: No, education is required. Mother: Now, I, I, I don't . . . I am so happy that my son is happy, truthfully. But I am very distressed . . . and little boys, don't laugh, because this is serious. Um, I am very distressed that none of these boys continue their education. What is going to happen to them when they are like you, when they're older, they have no talents? Prabhupāda: But your educational system, in the Western countries, the . . . you have got big, big universities. Why the university students becoming hippies? Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Mother: But we must develop . . . Prabhupāda: I think the college students, university students, they're all hippies. Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys . . . Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there . . . in India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your Western country you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie? Mother: Oh, but you . . . we're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you? Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple . . . this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy. Mother: Well, you're educated, you see. Prabhupāda: No, I am educated. Mother: Yes, but how many of these are? Prabhupāda: But I am not educated only on this platform—eating, sleeping and sex life and defense. I am educated in a different platform. Mother: But you, aren't you translating your books still? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Mother: Isn't that a great joy, a great joy to you? *Prabhupāda: That's . . . for translating of books it does not require . . . of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise . . . real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money*-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question. Mother: Oh, but not your followers. Your followers are not being hippies, people who follow you. Therefore you've got the people who you could help to become cultured like you. Prabhupāda: So my father educated me in a different way. Therefore I have come to this stage. My father never allowed me even to drink tea. Mother: Well, I'm disappointed in you. I came to see you because I felt that, being so cultured, that you would want all your boys to have this culture and to have this . . . to have the best . . . Revatīnandana: We've got, we've got this culture. Mother: Oh, but you haven't, you see. You're all, you're all young boys . . . Revatīnandana: No, your culture, your culture we don't have. Mother: . . . but you're not mature yet. Revatīnandana: But the culture that he has, he's giving to us. Mother: Yes, but you're not mature. It takes years to become mature. Hurt, pain, happiness, everything together . . . you find God? Yes, I've found God. We all . . . I feel very close to God, and I feel very happy. But I would also still wish to be educated. And fortunately, I was given the chance to have an education. Prabhupāda: Education means to know God. Mother: And I don't misuse it. *Prabhupāda: That is education. Our Vedic culture, the high*-class men is called brāhmaṇa . Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa , you know that. Mother: Brāhmaṇa , yes. Prabhupāda: So who is a brāhmaṇa ? Who knows God, he is called brāhmaṇa . Therefore culmination of education is to understand God. That is education. Otherwise, to get education how to nicely eat, how nicely sleep, how nicely have sex life and how to defend, this education is there even in the animals. The animals also, they know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. Mother: Yes. It seems to worry you, this sex life. I mean, we, we don't take . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I'm not worried. Mother: . . . any notice if . . . it fits into its place. Prabhupāda: This is also necessary. This is also necessary. Mother: It fits into the place in my life or our life. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is also necessary. Mother: Yes. It doesn't worry us at all. Prabhupāda: But these four type of branches of education is not sufficient for human being. A human being, above all this education, must have the knowledge how to love God. And that is perfection of life. Mother: Yes, well, Michael was taught that when he was very small. The Jesuits saw to that. Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Mother: The Jesuits certainly did. Prabhupāda: So to understand God or how to love God, there is religious system. In every civilized human society—it doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muhammadanism or Buddhism—the aim . . . religious system is there in human society besides the education of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animal society. So a human being is distinct from the animal when he has education how to understand God and how to love Him. That is perfection. Mother: Well, you've got a good tape there now, haven't you? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mother: You've got a good tape there now. Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is now wanting. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not depriving people of their education. You get education how to eat, how to sleep, and that's all right. But side by side, you take education how to know God and how to love Him. That is our proposition. Mother: Yes. I agree with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes, I agree with you every time. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you stop all this education. No. Mother: No, I don't agree with you there. No, Father, no, no. No, no. Prabhupāda: We don't say. Mother: No, I think they must . . . Prabhupāda: You can go on with your industries. You can go on with your university. But side by side, you become competent to know what is God and how to love Him. Then your life is perfect. Mother: Oh, a lot of . . . I could mention a lot of names that still very close to God and brilliant men in science. Where would we be without our scientists, without our doctors, medicine? They all have to go to university and get a degree before they . . . Prabhupāda: That I say. You get. Mother: Yes, but we need them. Prabhupāda: You get. Mother: Yes, well, then some of your boys could be doctors. Prabhupāda: But simply to becoming doctor at a medical science will not save me. Unfortunately, they do not believe in the next life. Mother: Oh, yes, they do. I go to . . . I had a doctor who came to church—and Michael knows him—every Sunday, a very good man. Prabhupāda: Mostly. I have spoken with many educated persons. In Moscow I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body, everything is finished." But he's a big professor. Generally, even they do believe next life, they do not believe it very seriously. If we actually believe there is next life, then we must be prepared, "What kind of next life I am going to have." Mother: Yes, well, Father . . . *Prabhupāda: Because there are 8,400,000 forms of life. The trees are also life, the cats and dogs, they are also life. And there are higher, intelligent persons in the higher planetary system, they are also life. The worm in the stool, that is also life. So, calculating all of them, there are 8,400,000 species of life. So if I am going to have next life . . . tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13). We have to change this body to another body. So our concern should be, "What kind of body I am going to get next." Mother: I agree for some people to . . . you especially, to think of this because you are a leader of your Vedic religion. But for everybody to do that, where would we be? We couldn't all sit down and think all the time. Prabhupāda: But where is that education? Mother: But we . . . you can also work and think. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life? Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in. Jesuit Priest: All the Catholic Universities all over the world are doing it. That's our main purpose, is to teach the young man and the young girl the success in this world, but above all . . . Prabhupāda: Then the next question . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And borrowing Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and etern . . . to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. *And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well*-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced . . . I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that . . . Prabhupāda: So . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . looked after me, I wouldn't be here this afternoon. Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life? Jesuit Priest: I don't think it matters very much. I couldn't care less what's happening after I'm dead. All I know, that it's not annihilation. I'm going to be joined with Almighty God. Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be blind. Mother: We're going to Almighty God. That's all. Jesuit Priest: Not that I want another life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: We're going to Almighty God when we die. We don't have to worry. Jesuit Priest: That's in His hands. Prabhupāda: So what is the qualification? Mother: We know. We . . . Prabhupāda: Everybody is going to God? Mother: Yes. Everybody who believes in God. Yes. And leads a good life, does their best in this world. And that is truth for me. Prabhupāda: Then the question comes: What is the good life? Jesuit Priest: Obeying the commandments of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shall not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. Father, you're being a bit unfair. It isn't . . . interpretation, "Thou shalt not kill," thou shalt not unjustly take away life. If a man walks in this afternoon through those bushes with a revolver, I have every right . . . I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I have every right to defend myself against that unjust aggressor. And if I kill him . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can, you can protect yourself . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . that is justified. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . from the aggressor, but when you kill innocent animal, what is the reason? Jesuit Priest: Oh, well, then . . . yes. Well, again, that's got to be interpreted. We wouldn't be able to . . . what foo . . . how would we live on food? How do we live if we don't eat? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Well, I don't know . . . Prabhupāda: We don't kill animals. Jesuit Priest: I don't know what your food is, but . . . Mother: No, but you have a vegetarian diet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: . . . which is . . . Jesuit Priest: Well, all right. Mother: A lot of people have that. Prabhupāda: But that is not killing. Jesuit Priest: No, but . . . by, fa . . . er, look at it this way. You've just said a few minutes ago there are eight million different kinds of life. Would you agree that the potato, the cabbage . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . and what have you also has a life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Because there's vegetative life, there's sensitive life, there's rational life . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jesuit Priest: . . . there's supernatural life, and there's a life of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: All right. And therefore—I'm not being facetious—when you boil those potatoes, you are taking away the life of that potato. Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy? That you can take any life? Jesuit Priest: But you said: "Thou shall not kill." Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Thou shall not kill," that's all right. Jesuit Priest: But you kill the potato. Prabhupāda: Now, suppose there is potato and there is your child. So would you like to kill your child in preference of potato? Mother: No, no. Jesuit Priest: You've not answered my question. Prabhupāda: Why this discrimination? Jesuit Priest: Why you've not answered my question? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering you, that you are to kill, but you have to discriminate what kind of killing you shall do. Jesuit Priest: Well, I've just said that. I gave the example of the chap who comes to you with a revolver. I can maybe protect myself. You said . . . you're implying . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. When somebody comes with a revolver, you defend. That is another thing. But if somebody's innocent, why you should kill? Jesuit Priest: And I say I shouldn't. God said: "Thou shalt not kill." Prabhupāda: Then why you are killing animals? Jesuit Priest: Well, you're doing it when you eat your potatoes. Prabhupāda: No, the potato is not animal. Jesuit Priest: It's a vegetable, life. Prabhupāda: No. Jesuit Priest: It starts with a little tiny seed. That's life. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Jesuit Priest: It grows. Prabhupāda: Potato is not animal. It is fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: It is a fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Has it got life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Are you doing anything wrong when you cut it down . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . to provide . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . to provide . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Jesuit Priest: You are doing something wrong? Prabhupāda: We don't cut down trees unnecessarily. Unnecessarily. Jesuit Priest: No, but, but, uh, but, uh . . . I don't kill . . . Prabhupāda: No. But the . . . I have asked this question to so many people that, "Why you are killing, although it is prohibited, 'Thou shall not kill'? " They cannot give me any satisfactory answer. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think I've given you one. I'm just thinking in a way . . . Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very . . . Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different . . . Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . kinds of life. Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal? Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Equal? Then why don't you kill your child, own child? Jesuit Priest: Because there's a, I mean, a . . . that's, that's . . . not logical. I just tried to show you the difference between . . . Prabhupāda: Now, we don't agree that . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . vegetative life, sensitive life and rational life. Prabhupāda: . . . that innocent . . . that . . . that's all right. Revatīnandana: Rational? Animals have got rationality. Jesuit Priest: No they haven't. Omnia animalia intelectu carent. Revatīnandana: Even your . . . Jesuit Priest: This is bringing out exactly . . . Revatīnandana: Even your own psychologists will display to you rational life in the monkeys. Jesuit Priest: No, no. Revatīnandana: And so many other animals. Rats. Jesuit Priest: No. Revatīnandana: They make rational decisions. Jesuit Priest: No they don't. Revatīnandana: Oh? Jesuit Priest: Well, I mean it's been accepted . . . Revatīnandana: Your own psychologists will display that to you. Jesuit Priest: Well, all I can say is it's been accepted in the teaching of not merely Western philosophers . . . Revatīnandana: Not Eastern philosophers. Jesuit Priest: . . . but all Eastern philosophers . . . omnia animalia intelectu carent. And now, as Mrs. Critchley just said, if you've done a bit of study . . . Prabhupāda: So because, because some animal is not intelligent, you are right to kill? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. We're not talking about killing. He, his theme now, that there's no difference between us and the dog. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. Revatīnandana: You're more intelligent than a dog—to some degree. Prabhupāda: No, if . . . Jesuit Priest: So in other words, if we are, all of us here . . . Prabhupāda: Even the animal is not intelligent, you cannot kill. Because your child is also not intelligent, so that does not mean you can kill your child. Jesuit Priest: Oh, but nobody, I'd . . . nobody'd, nobody'd, master, nobody'd for one second would think about killing a child. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not a very good reasoning, that because the animal is not intelligent, they may be killed. That is not very good reason. Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, that isn't the reason. That isn't the reason why we kill it. We kill the animal because we need it for a means of living. Prabhupāda: No . . . Jesuit Priest: As food. Prabhupāda: You need it . . . just like if you can get nice fruits, grains, milk, why do you need animal? You have to eat. You have to eat and live. Not to kill. Similarly, that if you can get nice foodstuff from food grains, from fruits, from flowers, from vegetables, from milk, why you should kill the animals? Mother: Well, a lot of people now are going over to health foods. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: This is thought of by a lot of people. Prabhupāda: Well, lot of people may do anything. Mother: I agree with you. Yes . . . Prabhupāda: But a reasonable man, a religious man, he should have discrimination that, "If I get my foodstuff from here, why shall I kill a big animal?" Mother: Well, it's not . . . I always think it's not for me to condemn people, whatever they do. All I ask for in life is . . . I'm not condemning you, but, uh . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are thinking in that way. It is alright that we have to eat some living entity, but a preference . . . if we can get . . . besides that, when you get the grains, it is not actually killing. When you get the fruits, I am getting these fruits from the tree. It is not killing. The fruits are there. I take it. It falls down. I take it. The grains also. It is not killing. Mother: Well, I think . . . no, well, I don't think we're really worried about whether we kill or you . . . Prabhupāda: So similarly, if I take milk from the cows, that is also cow's blood, but I don't kill it. So if I can live in such nice way, without killing, I get the fruits and flowers and the milk and the grains, why should I kill the animals? Mother: There're a tremendous number of people being vegetarians today. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: You're not the only people. I mean, a lot of people just have, yes, they do . . . Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is nice, very nice. They should be vegetarian. Mother: . . . but we don't condemn people who do. Prabhupāda: That will make them less sinful. And that will qualify them to go back to home, back to Godhead. If they remain sinful, they cannot go. Jesuit Priest: Would you say that because we—and I talk about myself—because I have meat and bacon and so on, I am a . . . does that make me sinful? If I didn't eat those, I would be less sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is our philosophy. Jesuit Priest: So if I give up eating meat and bacon and sausages and things, I'll suddenly become a different person. Prabhupāda: Then you become pure. You become pure. Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes. Jesuit Priest: That's very interesting. Revatīnandana: I just met a gentleman who told me exactly that. Just a few min . . . he's a businessman here in London. He's about forty years old. And three months ago, he decided, because he learned, heard this from us, he decided to become a vegetarian. And a few weeks later, I talked to him. He said: "You know, it's amazing the difference in my consciousness." He says: "I have become a completely different man." Yeah, he told me that. Prabhupāda: Well, yes . . . Revatīnandana: And he's a very intelligent man. He's in the Mensa Society, in London. Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature it is said the animal killers cannot understand God. Mother: Well, this is very good, that, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument . . . yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it. Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull. Mother: What about your children? Where do they . . .? Do they go to school? Prabhupāda: Why not? Mother: Are they edu . . .? Do they go to schools, your children? Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school. Mother: Well, I didn't mean yours in particular. I'm talking now of all of you. I'm not talking of you particularly. I'm talking of all of you. All your children, the married devotees . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas , householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school. Mother: But you have got a school, a Kṛṣṇa school? Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. Mother: And now, how . . .? Do they go through college? Prabhupāda: They are now little children. But we don't wish to send them to college. We have got sufficient books. Mother: So you'll cut off their education like that? Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense education? Revatīnandana: No, no. Mother: Now, do you think that's not cruel to them? Prabhupāda: We don't care for this . . . Revatīnandana: We cut off your education, and we take education from the *Vedas* and from our spiritual master. We learn how to read, how to write, how to handle numbers sufficiently, and whatever we need practically for our work. And we learn the science of God from our spiritual master. And we find that sufficient for us. We haven't got to spend extra time and many extra years irrelevant subjects that are never going to relate to our practical life or to our God conscious life. Jesuit Priest: But you're depending on other people, then, to do the other side of your life for you. Prabhupāda: We are not depending on anyone. Jesuit Priest: Well, what happens when suddenly one of you gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Jesuit Priest: What happens if somebody gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: So we give them medicine. Mother: You call the doctor. Jesuit Priest: No, you call the doctor, don't you? Prabhupāda: So we pay for that. Jesuit Priest: I know, but you call him, don't you? You want him to be. You want the doctor in existence. Prabhupāda: So does it mean to say that because we require necessary, we have to take education of medical man? Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men. Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily . . . Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our training is . . . first of all, try to understand. We . . . just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work—walking. The hand is doing its own work, and the belly's doing its own work, and the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg, but does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also. Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like . . . Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from . . . when there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: Yes. Well, as I say . . . Prabhupāda: It does not . . . Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse. Prabhupāda: You are asking us, "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take? Mother: Because if everybody . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no necessity. If the . . . if I can pay, I can get the help of a medical man, why should I waste my time in that way? Let me . . . *Mother: You think? Ah, but you should be self*-supporting. You should be . . . Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God. *Mother: You should be self*-supporting in that way. *Prabhupāda: Self*-supporting . . . we are self-supporting. Just like . . . I have given the example. The body, the social body—you can take of this body—there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: No, I don't mean that. You're misunderstanding me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then your question is replied. When I need the help of a medical man, I go to the medical man. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find. Mother: . . . you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no? Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that, "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question. Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question? Mother: Well, my brain works, and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. Mother: . . . and still be with God. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man? Mother: I think it's so sad to see a lot of very good . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Just, just try to understand this point. Mother: . . . young men becoming cabbages. Prabhupāda: They're misunderstanding. Yes. When I can get . . . just like here is father. He's trained up how to preach. He's not a medical man. But he doesn't require to learn the medical science. Mother: No, but I didn't ask you to be a doctor. I said some of your boys. Prabhupāda: Why . . . why you are asking? My boys are the same. Revatīnandana: Which ones? Which ones of us should become doctors here? Mother: Well, all, all, all . . . Revatīnandana: Supposing they all want to be preachers. Do you go to your seminaries and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox . . . Revatīnandana: No. No, no. Mother: . . . or typhoid, you . . . you know what smallpox is like in India. Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division. Revatīnandana: Do you go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: It'd be no good at all being priest if you had smallpox, would it? Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come . . ." Prabhupāda: We are treating them. Revatīnandana: ". . . and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers. Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes. Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us . . . you, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business. Mother: Well, my son is my business. Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent. Mother: Yes, but he was . . . Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you. Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university. Prabhupāda: But . . . that's all right. If some of our student goes to the university . . . there are many students . . . Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael. Prabhupāda: We don't object to that. Revatīnandana: Michael came to the temple in London, sat down, and didn't want to go away. Mother: He'd been taking LSD, and he was very sick. And somebody took him in. Prabhupāda: So . . . so when he was taking LSD, what did you do for him? Revatīnandana: Why was he taking LSD? He had wonderful education, happy home, so many things. Mother: Well, he was experimenting. Now this is it . . . Revatīnandana: So LSD is acknowledged a dangerous thing to experiment with. Prabhupāda: You like that? You like that? Mother: Well, he had a false . . . this was not . . . Prabhupāda: When he was taking LSD, did you like that? Mother: I didn't know, did I? Prabhupāda: Then? Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: And this is it. Prabhupāda: So there must be division for upkeep of the soc . . . that is missing. At the present moment, there is no division. Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD. Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be . . . there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of men has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be a preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that, "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (sound of jet) What is the use of talking? Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books. Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question. Mother: Is it not . . .? Prabhupāda: I say that there must be divisions. We are working on certain division. Mother: Well, tell me about the books you have translated. Are there some more to translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Well, one day you will die. Now who will translate them then, continue the translating? Prabhupāda: There are many. There are many. They are being trained up. There are many. Mother: Ah, yes. So people are being trained. Ah. This is what I'm asking you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Well, I explained that to you earlier, that we have our classes. Prabhupāda: We are training every day. Mother: But then, this is languages. You've got to, you've got to study languages. You can't just be taught . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. So a few of us, so the few of us who have an aptitude for Sanskrit language are studying Sanskrit language. Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit, we are teaching English. Especially. Especially we are giving training to our boys to learn simply English and Sanskrit. Then they will be help. By learning Sanskrit, they will be able to read . . . Mother: Latin? Latin? And . . .? What . . .? Prabhupāda: There is no need of . . . one language sufficient, English language, practical . . . *Mother: Ah, but then that is one*-sided then, isn't it? Revatīnandana: Most of us don't even study Sanskrit very much. Prabhupāda: No. Just like English book. We are translating in German, translating in France, in Spanish . . . Mother: But there's a lot of Latin that needs translating too. I mean, you must . . . you must, you must have a full understanding of everything if you're going to translate. Prabhupāda: Yes. It will be better. If you also join, then we'll have full understanding. (mother laughs) Mother: You have a sense of humor. Jesuit Priest: What language, master, was your books originally written in? Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Don't you find it extremely difficult to get the literal meaning from the Sanskrit to the English? Prabhupāda: No. You may; it may be difficult for you, but . . . Jesuit Priest: No, no. I'm just thinking . . . Prabhupāda: . . . for one who knows Sanskrit, it is not difficult for him. Jesuit Priest: When I did my studies, we had to do Greek and Hebrew and Latin and, naturally, reading the scriptures in English. But it helped enormously with a background of a little bit of Hebrew. Not very much. But certainly Greek and Latin. You get a much more comprehensive notion of what's in the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are teaching Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit to our students. Jesuit Priest: Yes, but all I was saying was isn't it difficult to get across at times what you can see the meaning in the Sanskrit, but you can't put it into acceptable English? You know what I mean. The idiom isn't the same. Prabhupāda: We are giving every word, meaning. The book . . . (aside) Have you got any book? Bring it. You can see. Each and every word of Sanskrit we are giving meaning. Our mode of presentation is first of all we put the original Sanskrit language in devanāgarī character. Then we give English, roman transliteration, pronouncing the same word by diacritic mark. Then each word is translated into English. Then we give translation, the whole. And then we give the purport. This is our way. So we are giving meaning of each and every word, means we have got considerable knowledge of that word. Otherwise how we can give? Yes. Jesuit Priest: I was just thinking how difficult it is. I read Latin pretty well. And Greek. And I can see the meaning in the original, in the Greek when it was translated from the Aramaic. Now in your translating you can get a phrase, and if you know the language, you know exactly what it conveys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Put it into English, and somehow, some of the meaning has come . . . Prabhupāda: Then that exact . . . Jesuit Priest: It's like the French. How do you say in . . . how do you translate "au revoir"? Prabhupāda: Otto? Revatīnandana: He's asking you how to translate a French word, "au revoir." Jesuit Priest: How do you translate into English? Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm not translating. The person who knows French language, he translates from our English. Jesuit Priest: Yes. No, well, I'm only trying to . . . a very simple question. It's not a question of trying to try anybody. I happened to say or give an example of what I mean. How'd you say in English, "au revoir." Prabhupāda: Just . . . just the . . . you have seen the . . . just show him how it is done. Yes, you can do it. Revatīnandana: That's all right. Mahādeva, you do it. Prabhupāda: You see the original Sanskrit. Mahādeva: Here's the text, here's the original Sanskrit. And we have a roman transliteration, and then individually, the word meanings. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I see. I've got it, yes. Mahādeva: And then a full translation. Jesuit Priest: Translation. Yes. They're marvelous. Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually, most of the Sanskrit, much of that work is done by one of Prabhupāda's disciples now. He handles much of the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being trained. Revatīnandana: It's a mechanical process, after all. But the translation, that requires not only knowledge of the language, it requires spiritual realization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the spiritual translation is done by Prabhupāda. Not just from knowledge of Sanskrit, but from spiritually realized knowledge. That is the qualification to put the meaning into any language. You have to have realized the message. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I agree. Certainly our, the great, in the Western Church, all the translations of the Gospels and the Old and New Testament is done by, for the most part, by men who were saints, and, in other words, it wasn't merely their knowledge of the language, but their incredible closeness to God, in every one of them, . . . (indistinct) . . . and Augustine and all the great men . . . Revatīnandana: The most recent translation accepted by the Church of England, in England, was done by Oxford scholars. Saintly men? I know some of them. I don't think they're actually saintly men. Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. Revatīnandana: Well, it's the modern . . . it's accepted by the Church of England and most other Protestant churches in England. It's the New English Bible . Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And it's recommended by all these Churches for their followers to read. And it's translated by scholars, Oxford scholars. Jesuit Priest: Yes. I see. I take your point, that you can have a translation which is purely academic and a translation which is not merely academic, but has a, sort of a spiritual experience behind it. *Revatīnandana: Um*-huh. Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by . . . I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to . . . doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow. Revatīnandana: Hmm. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Critchley just pointed out, that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD? Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so they, lots of the young people today . . . Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful. Jesuit Priest: There's a vacuum created, and so they either take it up in . . . Mother: It's very extraordinary, though, that every boy that I have spoken to here . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam . . . (BG 7.28). Mother: . . . have all taken LSD or drugs of some kind. *Prabhupāda: . . . janānāṁ puṇya*-karmaṇām. Revatīnandana: That was one who hasn't. Mother: Even your president . . . Devotee: I haven't. Mother: I said . . . Revatīnandana: This one, this one . . . Mother: The ones I have spoken to. I said the ones I have spoken to. Even your president . . . *Revatīnandana: And Father Bernard? Father Bernard spent twenty*-three years in a Cistercian monastery. He left and came to us right afterward, and he's never taken LSD. Jesuit Priest: Who was in a Cistercian monastery? Revatīnandana: Father Bernard there. Jesuit Priest: Are you a priest? Mother: But I say quite a lot of your young people have come to you since they took drugs. I've spoken to . . . even your president admitted that he'd taken drugs. Prabhupāda: There is no restriction for anyone. God is open for everyone. Mother: But you said . . . Michael, I said: "Most of the people that I have spoken to." I didn't say "Most of the people here." I said "most of the people . . ." One person I'd spoken to hadn't, but I can truthfully say that only one hadn't, out of the ones I've spoken to. They have come here . . . you are . . . you seem to be able to help the people that have taken drugs, so that . . . Prabhupāda: That is my duty. Mother: You've helped them tremendously, and I can see this, but I am so sad that you can't help them to further their education. That's all my . . . my problem is . . . Mahādeva: Prabhupāda was making the point that the purpose of education is to know God. Mother: Yes, I know. I know. Yes, he has, and I've seen that point. Prabhupāda: Don't you think this is education? Mother: Well . . . Prabhupāda: This translator work? Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we are teaching our boys . . . Mother: But you know what I me . . . Prabhupāda: . . . Sanskrit and English to translate the original Vedic lit . . . is it not education? Mother: Yes, I agree with you. That is education. But I mean a fuller education. Prabhupāda: You are trying to induce our students to become technologists, medical men. You want that. Mother: Yes, because the world must have them. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But our point is that if we can get the help of technologist by paying little money . . . Mother: Well, you'd laugh if you were ill and there was no doctor, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: . . . why should we waste our time? Mother: If you had acute appendicitis, what would you do? Devotee: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mother: Well, you wouldn't. You'd die. I mean . . . you laugh when I say that. Somebody's got to be a doctor. You're being very childish. Father agrees. There must be doctors. Revatīnandana: Well, it's good that . . . in the society we observe there are many, many people becoming doctors. But there are not very many people becoming brāhmaṇas , people who live a sinless life and who learn the science of God and distribute it to the people. There're not very many people . . . Jesuit Priest: I think that . . . I think that . . . Revatīnandana: Not very many, not very many people are doing that. Jesuit Priest: I don't know. I think that that's a gratuitous statement for which you can have no proof. Revatīnandana: I'm just saying not many people are doing it. How many pe . . . how many people, compared to the number of medical students in England, how many people are students in religious seminaries? Jesuit Priest: Well, do you know? Revatīnandana: No, I'm asking you. Jesuit Priest: Well, I do. I do. I do know it. Revatīnandana: So give us a comparison. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I . . . we've no problem at all . . . Prabhupāda: Now, another thing is . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . in finding plenty of young men to go along with the principles . . . Revatīnandana: Neither have we. And you're teaching them to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And Prabhupāda is teaching us to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I know . . . I've never questioned that . . . Revatīnandana: So there's no necessity, there's no necessity of canvassing amongst the seminaries or here for medical doctors. Jesuit Priest: No, no. You've missed the whole point. Mrs. Critchley's original statement was, if the young men here went on, not merely . . . keep the knowledge and the search for the knowledge and love of God, by all means, but let them go on to develop their knowledge in the world of science, in the world of learning, and thus become leaders in that particular branch with a spiritual motif behind it, and instead of enclosing yourselves inside a circle like this, being able to spread the love of God amongst the tens of thousands of young people in the world. That's all . . . Revatīnandana: No. I, I suspect . . . Mother: We need it. We need it. Revatīnandana: I suspect that for the hundred, hundred or hundred and twenty of us in England, I think, for the number of us, I'll bet we're doing more work per man to spread it among the young people than your mission is. Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't know. You're making this statement. I haven't proof. Revatīnandana: Well, I know that in almost all of our centers they certainly happen to be developing a temple like this. We spend every day, from ten o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night, engaged in preaching work. Jesuit Priest: I think most of us do, too. Prabhupāda: Now, in each of our center we have got minimum fifty heads, maximum two hundred, 250. In Los Angeles you'll see . . . just we have got recent photograph. (aside) Bring the photograph from my room. You can bring. So we are giving them place, we are giving them food, we are giving them education. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: In this way. So we invite anyone, everyone, without any distinction, without any discrimination—he may be Christian, he may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan—"Come on. Live with us, and learn how to love." That is our mission. We say, according to our Vedic description: If you actually want peace of your mind, then you must try . . . you must learn how to love God. So our preaching is—it doesn't matter, whatever religion you are following, it doesn't matter—if you have achieved this aim, how to love God, then your system is first class. That's all. That is our preaching. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Bhakti means love of God. How much you have learned to love God, that much we want to know. We don't say that, "You are Christian, you become followers of Hindu rituals or Muhammadan rituals." No. You remain in your position, but just try to love God to the best of your capacity. Mother: Well, I think we do that. Jesuit Priest: We're all doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Most people. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our mission. Now, if you find it difficulty, you can come and join with us. That's all. Practically, in Europe and America, they are all coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So . . . yes. This is a recent photograph of our Los Angeles center. They are regularly living in the temple, as they are living in the temple. Mother: Hmm. Put my glasses on, see if I can . . . look at . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And you'll also be surprised to know that this, this was a church, that building. It was a big church. So we have purchased it. Jesuit Priest: Very nice. Mother: In other words, your temple . . . do you call it your temple or a church? Prabhupāda: We call temple. Mother: A temple. And are these married and . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are married, there are sannyāsīs , there are brahmacārī , all kinds of people. It is not restricted. You see? So many children. They're having children. We are taking care of them. Everything. Mother: Now, do you have these temples in India? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mother: Because I myself haven't been to India, but my parents were there. And the Indian contingent from Dunkirk was billeted in my home in 1940, just before I married. Prabhupāda: Oh. There you see. Oh. Mother: And we had all the Indians there after Dunkirk, waiting for more Indians to come and join them. And we had the Hindus and the Muhammadans and the sweepers, and they all had their own houses. And they recovered from all the war damage, and they went off within about twelve months. They went off in '41, back to . . . Prabhupāda: There was some bombing in Calcutta, nothing more. Mother: Hmm. Ah, but these Indians were fighting in France. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Mother: Dunkirk. Prabhupāda: Dunkirk. Mother: And then they came, when Dunkirk was evacuated, they came back in all these little boats that they escaped in, and they got together and they billeted them . . . and I was living with my godmother in Shalden, in Devonshire. And we had eight acres. And the Army put up huts for them. And they lived there for about eight months until more Indians were sent to make them back to strength again, the regiments, big enough. And then they went overseas again. Some went to Burma, some to Italy. I don't know where they went, of course, but they were very good . . . Prabhupāda: They went to die, after all. Mother: They were very good soldiers. No, they didn't all die. Of course, some did, I expect. Prabhupāda: Some, (laughs) yes. Mother: But they were, they were very fine men. Jesuit Priest: Well, anyhow, thank you very much, Father, for letting us talk and for letting us listen to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here. Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for . . . Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life. Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Mother: Yes, we do that. Prabhupāda: That is our . . . *Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty*-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I? Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest? *Jesuit Priest: And I'm not only one, but there happen to be thirty*-three thousand of us in the world. Prabhupāda: Because you have become a priest, that means you love God. *Jesuit Priest: Yes. Fifty*-two years ago I made up my mind. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is understood. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are brāhmaṇa because . . . Mother: How do you know I'm a grandmother? Revatīnandana: No, he said brāhmaṇa . Mother: Oh! I thought you said grandmother! I am a grandmother. Prabhupāda: Now, that's it. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think we'd better be . . . Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam . Mother: Well, thank you very much. And . . . Mahādeva: Give it in the house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam there. Mother: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Mother: Well, I think we understand each other a little better. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you are fortunate that you have got so nice son like that. Mother: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye, thanks, good-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye, all of you. Bye. (guests leave) (break) Revatīnandana: . . . question that she said he came to us because he was taking LSD and he had a false religious experience. And the question is now, if they have access to a true religious experience, why was he looking for a false religious experience? Why was Michael looking for a false religious experience from LSD if he had already got true religion? They didn't understand. Their best children are taking LSD because they can't get any satisfaction from their parents' religion. Śrutakīrti: He answered that by saying he didn't have that supernatural grace. Revatīnandana: Yeah, why not? That's pretty clear, actually. "Well, we love God. Yes, we love God." A steak and a glass of wine and God. Śrutakīrti: I think a storm is coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: A rainstorm is . . . Prabhupāda: Rainstorm? No. Revatīnandana: Little, little . . . it might rain. It's not for a while. But when it gets misty, it sometimes rains. Prabhupāda: You can understand from the cloud. When it's blackish, then there is rain . . . (end) Conversation -- August 3, 1973, London (Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother, Mrs. Critchley and Jesuit Priest) Prabhupāda: The aeroplane botheration (sound of aeroplane flying over) was not in Switzerland. They do not come there for fear of rising . . . Mother (Mrs. Critchley): They fly higher. Prabhupāda: . . . peaks. Peaks. Jesuit Priest: Mountains. Prabhupāda: So they don't come there. Mother: No, no. Prabhupāda: That was the only place in the world there was no such sound. Otherwise, everywhere. In America we have got so many temples. Even in West Virginia, hilly tract, there is also aeroplane. But less sound. Here it is near London, there must be. Yes. Jesuit Priest: Have you met Mother Teresa? Prabhupāda: Who is Mother Teresa? Mahādeva: She's a Christian mystic. Revatīnandana: She's a Christian nun, and she has a mission in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saint Theresa? Revatīnandana: No, Mother Teresa. She's living there now. Jesuit Priest: She's an Albanian nun who works in India and is . . . and has captivated the whole world just by the fantastic work she's done and is doing amongst the down, the outcastes and the desperately poor in the cities of India, particularly in Calcutta. And she's got disciples, young men, young women, joining her, where most of the other religious orders are desperately short. And the youth is being captivated by her, and they can't cope with the numbers wanting to join. And she was given a big speech in the Guild Hall in London and was the first person presented with an enormous sum of money by the Duke of Edinburgh, voted by the World Council of Churches as the outstanding religious person in the world. And people at her speech who heard, it brought the audience to its feet. And all she said in her speech was nothing more except "Love, love, love, love. Just go on giving and look for nothing back," which made an enormous impact, probably the greatest impact that anybody's making at present, in the world at present. Mother: How old is she? About eighty? Jesuit Priest: No, seventy . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization. Mother: In India, you mean. You're talking of India now. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Mother: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Mother: Yes. What about India? I mean, do they leave the villages? Prabhupāda: India, actually, they do so. Mother: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To give more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set*-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering . . . they are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollar," although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollar? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society. Mother: Yes. But I think one has to be clever enough not to let people cheat you. Prabhupāda: Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city. Mother: But we have to teach our young to be able to define between those who cheat and those who . . . be able to tell people who . . . Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating . . . Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way. Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world. Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God. Mother: I see he's happy. But, you know, he came from a very happy home. So he should be happy, shouldn't he? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Very happy home, brothers and sisters. And we've all been very happy. And I hope he will remain happy. Prabhupāda: He's still happier. Mother: Yes, I can see. Prabhupāda: He was happy; now he's happier. That is the difference. Mother: Yes. Oh, I don't think he's happier. (laughter) You are? I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: You are not happier. Mother: I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: Because your son has come here, you may not be happier. But he is happier. Mother: Oh, you're saying this. I'm not saying this. I'm very disappointed that he is not continuing with education. I'm not sorry that . . . I'm happy for his happiness, wherever he is. Prabhupāda: But what is the . . . what is the purpose of education? Mother: You are a cultured man. You're educated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Did you not learn . . .? Who gave you the talent to translate your Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Who gave you the talent, Father? Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking that what is the best part of education? So far my school, college education is concerned, that is not being used here. Mother: Oh, but you're cultured. You, in your old age, are getting tremendous comfort from being able to read and understand what the world is doing, the goodness of your books, and you have . . . you're able to understand the spiritual way of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . Mother: If you couldn't . . . if you hadn't been educated, Father, well, how would you be able to have . . .? Prabhupāda: No, education is required. Mother: Now, I, I, I don't . . . I am so happy that my son is happy, truthfully. But I am very distressed . . . and little boys, don't laugh, because this is serious. Um, I am very distressed that none of these boys continue their education. What is going to happen to them when they are like you, when they're older, they have no talents? Prabhupāda: But your educational system, in the Western countries, the . . . you have got big, big universities. Why the university students becoming hippies? Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Mother: But we must develop . . . Prabhupāda: I think the college students, university students, they're all hippies. Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys . . . Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there . . . in India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your Western country you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie? Mother: Oh, but you . . . we're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you? Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple . . . this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy. Mother: Well, you're educated, you see. Prabhupāda: No, I am educated. Mother: Yes, but how many of these are? Prabhupāda: But I am not educated only on this platform—eating, sleeping and sex life and defense. I am educated in a different platform. Mother: But you, aren't you translating your books still? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Mother: Isn't that a great joy, a great joy to you? *Prabhupāda: That's . . . for translating of books it does not require . . . of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise . . . real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money*-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question. Mother: Oh, but not your followers. Your followers are not being hippies, people who follow you. Therefore you've got the people who you could help to become cultured like you. Prabhupāda: So my father educated me in a different way. Therefore I have come to this stage. My father never allowed me even to drink tea. Mother: Well, I'm disappointed in you. I came to see you because I felt that, being so cultured, that you would want all your boys to have this culture and to have this . . . to have the best . . . Revatīnandana: We've got, we've got this culture. Mother: Oh, but you haven't, you see. You're all, you're all young boys . . . Revatīnandana: No, your culture, your culture we don't have. Mother: . . . but you're not mature yet. Revatīnandana: But the culture that he has, he's giving to us. Mother: Yes, but you're not mature. It takes years to become mature. Hurt, pain, happiness, everything together . . . you find God? Yes, I've found God. We all . . . I feel very close to God, and I feel very happy. But I would also still wish to be educated. And fortunately, I was given the chance to have an education. Prabhupāda: Education means to know God. Mother: And I don't misuse it. *Prabhupāda: That is education. Our Vedic culture, the high*-class men is called brāhmaṇa . Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa , you know that. Mother: Brāhmaṇa , yes. Prabhupāda: So who is a brāhmaṇa ? Who knows God, he is called brāhmaṇa . Therefore culmination of education is to understand God. That is education. Otherwise, to get education how to nicely eat, how nicely sleep, how nicely have sex life and how to defend, this education is there even in the animals. The animals also, they know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. Mother: Yes. It seems to worry you, this sex life. I mean, we, we don't take . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I'm not worried. Mother: . . . any notice if . . . it fits into its place. Prabhupāda: This is also necessary. This is also necessary. Mother: It fits into the place in my life or our life. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is also necessary. Mother: Yes. It doesn't worry us at all. Prabhupāda: But these four type of branches of education is not sufficient for human being. A human being, above all this education, must have the knowledge how to love God. And that is perfection of life. Mother: Yes, well, Michael was taught that when he was very small. The Jesuits saw to that. Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Mother: The Jesuits certainly did. Prabhupāda: So to understand God or how to love God, there is religious system. In every civilized human society—it doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muhammadanism or Buddhism—the aim . . . religious system is there in human society besides the education of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animal society. So a human being is distinct from the animal when he has education how to understand God and how to love Him. That is perfection. Mother: Well, you've got a good tape there now, haven't you? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mother: You've got a good tape there now. Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is now wanting. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not depriving people of their education. You get education how to eat, how to sleep, and that's all right. But side by side, you take education how to know God and how to love Him. That is our proposition. Mother: Yes. I agree with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes, I agree with you every time. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you stop all this education. No. Mother: No, I don't agree with you there. No, Father, no, no. No, no. Prabhupāda: We don't say. Mother: No, I think they must . . . Prabhupāda: You can go on with your industries. You can go on with your university. But side by side, you become competent to know what is God and how to love Him. Then your life is perfect. Mother: Oh, a lot of . . . I could mention a lot of names that still very close to God and brilliant men in science. Where would we be without our scientists, without our doctors, medicine? They all have to go to university and get a degree before they . . . Prabhupāda: That I say. You get. Mother: Yes, but we need them. Prabhupāda: You get. Mother: Yes, well, then some of your boys could be doctors. Prabhupāda: But simply to becoming doctor at a medical science will not save me. Unfortunately, they do not believe in the next life. Mother: Oh, yes, they do. I go to . . . I had a doctor who came to church—and Michael knows him—every Sunday, a very good man. Prabhupāda: Mostly. I have spoken with many educated persons. In Moscow I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body, everything is finished." But he's a big professor. Generally, even they do believe next life, they do not believe it very seriously. If we actually believe there is next life, then we must be prepared, "What kind of next life I am going to have." Mother: Yes, well, Father . . . *Prabhupāda: Because there are 8,400,000 forms of life. The trees are also life, the cats and dogs, they are also life. And there are higher, intelligent persons in the higher planetary system, they are also life. The worm in the stool, that is also life. So, calculating all of them, there are 8,400,000 species of life. So if I am going to have next life . . . tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13). We have to change this body to another body. So our concern should be, "What kind of body I am going to get next." Mother: I agree for some people to . . . you especially, to think of this because you are a leader of your Vedic religion. But for everybody to do that, where would we be? We couldn't all sit down and think all the time. Prabhupāda: But where is that education? Mother: But we . . . you can also work and think. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life? Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in. Jesuit Priest: All the Catholic Universities all over the world are doing it. That's our main purpose, is to teach the young man and the young girl the success in this world, but above all . . . Prabhupāda: Then the next question . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And borrowing Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and etern . . . to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. *And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well*-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced . . . I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that . . . Prabhupāda: So . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . looked after me, I wouldn't be here this afternoon. Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life? Jesuit Priest: I don't think it matters very much. I couldn't care less what's happening after I'm dead. All I know, that it's not annihilation. I'm going to be joined with Almighty God. Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be blind. Mother: We're going to Almighty God. That's all. Jesuit Priest: Not that I want another life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: We're going to Almighty God when we die. We don't have to worry. Jesuit Priest: That's in His hands. Prabhupāda: So what is the qualification? Mother: We know. We . . . Prabhupāda: Everybody is going to God? Mother: Yes. Everybody who believes in God. Yes. And leads a good life, does their best in this world. And that is truth for me. Prabhupāda: Then the question comes: What is the good life? Jesuit Priest: Obeying the commandments of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shall not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. Father, you're being a bit unfair. It isn't . . . interpretation, "Thou shalt not kill," thou shalt not unjustly take away life. If a man walks in this afternoon through those bushes with a revolver, I have every right . . . I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I have every right to defend myself against that unjust aggressor. And if I kill him . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can, you can protect yourself . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . that is justified. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . from the aggressor, but when you kill innocent animal, what is the reason? Jesuit Priest: Oh, well, then . . . yes. Well, again, that's got to be interpreted. We wouldn't be able to . . . what foo . . . how would we live on food? How do we live if we don't eat? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Well, I don't know . . . Prabhupāda: We don't kill animals. Jesuit Priest: I don't know what your food is, but . . . Mother: No, but you have a vegetarian diet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: . . . which is . . . Jesuit Priest: Well, all right. Mother: A lot of people have that. Prabhupāda: But that is not killing. Jesuit Priest: No, but . . . by, fa . . . er, look at it this way. You've just said a few minutes ago there are eight million different kinds of life. Would you agree that the potato, the cabbage . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . and what have you also has a life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Because there's vegetative life, there's sensitive life, there's rational life . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jesuit Priest: . . . there's supernatural life, and there's a life of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: All right. And therefore—I'm not being facetious—when you boil those potatoes, you are taking away the life of that potato. Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy? That you can take any life? Jesuit Priest: But you said: "Thou shall not kill." Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Thou shall not kill," that's all right. Jesuit Priest: But you kill the potato. Prabhupāda: Now, suppose there is potato and there is your child. So would you like to kill your child in preference of potato? Mother: No, no. Jesuit Priest: You've not answered my question. Prabhupāda: Why this discrimination? Jesuit Priest: Why you've not answered my question? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering you, that you are to kill, but you have to discriminate what kind of killing you shall do. Jesuit Priest: Well, I've just said that. I gave the example of the chap who comes to you with a revolver. I can maybe protect myself. You said . . . you're implying . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. When somebody comes with a revolver, you defend. That is another thing. But if somebody's innocent, why you should kill? Jesuit Priest: And I say I shouldn't. God said: "Thou shalt not kill." Prabhupāda: Then why you are killing animals? Jesuit Priest: Well, you're doing it when you eat your potatoes. Prabhupāda: No, the potato is not animal. Jesuit Priest: It's a vegetable, life. Prabhupāda: No. Jesuit Priest: It starts with a little tiny seed. That's life. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Jesuit Priest: It grows. Prabhupāda: Potato is not animal. It is fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: It is a fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Has it got life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Are you doing anything wrong when you cut it down . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . to provide . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . to provide . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Jesuit Priest: You are doing something wrong? Prabhupāda: We don't cut down trees unnecessarily. Unnecessarily. Jesuit Priest: No, but, but, uh, but, uh . . . I don't kill . . . Prabhupāda: No. But the . . . I have asked this question to so many people that, "Why you are killing, although it is prohibited, 'Thou shall not kill'? " They cannot give me any satisfactory answer. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think I've given you one. I'm just thinking in a way . . . Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very . . . Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different . . . Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . kinds of life. Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal? Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Equal? Then why don't you kill your child, own child? Jesuit Priest: Because there's a, I mean, a . . . that's, that's . . . not logical. I just tried to show you the difference between . . . Prabhupāda: Now, we don't agree that . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . vegetative life, sensitive life and rational life. Prabhupāda: . . . that innocent . . . that . . . that's all right. Revatīnandana: Rational? Animals have got rationality. Jesuit Priest: No they haven't. Omnia animalia intelectu carent. Revatīnandana: Even your . . . Jesuit Priest: This is bringing out exactly . . . Revatīnandana: Even your own psychologists will display to you rational life in the monkeys. Jesuit Priest: No, no. Revatīnandana: And so many other animals. Rats. Jesuit Priest: No. Revatīnandana: They make rational decisions. Jesuit Priest: No they don't. Revatīnandana: Oh? Jesuit Priest: Well, I mean it's been accepted . . . Revatīnandana: Your own psychologists will display that to you. Jesuit Priest: Well, all I can say is it's been accepted in the teaching of not merely Western philosophers . . . Revatīnandana: Not Eastern philosophers. Jesuit Priest: . . . but all Eastern philosophers . . . omnia animalia intelectu carent. And now, as Mrs. Critchley just said, if you've done a bit of study . . . Prabhupāda: So because, because some animal is not intelligent, you are right to kill? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. We're not talking about killing. He, his theme now, that there's no difference between us and the dog. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. Revatīnandana: You're more intelligent than a dog—to some degree. Prabhupāda: No, if . . . Jesuit Priest: So in other words, if we are, all of us here . . . Prabhupāda: Even the animal is not intelligent, you cannot kill. Because your child is also not intelligent, so that does not mean you can kill your child. Jesuit Priest: Oh, but nobody, I'd . . . nobody'd, nobody'd, master, nobody'd for one second would think about killing a child. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not a very good reasoning, that because the animal is not intelligent, they may be killed. That is not very good reason. Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, that isn't the reason. That isn't the reason why we kill it. We kill the animal because we need it for a means of living. Prabhupāda: No . . . Jesuit Priest: As food. Prabhupāda: You need it . . . just like if you can get nice fruits, grains, milk, why do you need animal? You have to eat. You have to eat and live. Not to kill. Similarly, that if you can get nice foodstuff from food grains, from fruits, from flowers, from vegetables, from milk, why you should kill the animals? Mother: Well, a lot of people now are going over to health foods. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: This is thought of by a lot of people. Prabhupāda: Well, lot of people may do anything. Mother: I agree with you. Yes . . . Prabhupāda: But a reasonable man, a religious man, he should have discrimination that, "If I get my foodstuff from here, why shall I kill a big animal?" Mother: Well, it's not . . . I always think it's not for me to condemn people, whatever they do. All I ask for in life is . . . I'm not condemning you, but, uh . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are thinking in that way. It is alright that we have to eat some living entity, but a preference . . . if we can get . . . besides that, when you get the grains, it is not actually killing. When you get the fruits, I am getting these fruits from the tree. It is not killing. The fruits are there. I take it. It falls down. I take it. The grains also. It is not killing. Mother: Well, I think . . . no, well, I don't think we're really worried about whether we kill or you . . . Prabhupāda: So similarly, if I take milk from the cows, that is also cow's blood, but I don't kill it. So if I can live in such nice way, without killing, I get the fruits and flowers and the milk and the grains, why should I kill the animals? Mother: There're a tremendous number of people being vegetarians today. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: You're not the only people. I mean, a lot of people just have, yes, they do . . . Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is nice, very nice. They should be vegetarian. Mother: . . . but we don't condemn people who do. Prabhupāda: That will make them less sinful. And that will qualify them to go back to home, back to Godhead. If they remain sinful, they cannot go. Jesuit Priest: Would you say that because we—and I talk about myself—because I have meat and bacon and so on, I am a . . . does that make me sinful? If I didn't eat those, I would be less sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is our philosophy. Jesuit Priest: So if I give up eating meat and bacon and sausages and things, I'll suddenly become a different person. Prabhupāda: Then you become pure. You become pure. Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes. Jesuit Priest: That's very interesting. Revatīnandana: I just met a gentleman who told me exactly that. Just a few min . . . he's a businessman here in London. He's about forty years old. And three months ago, he decided, because he learned, heard this from us, he decided to become a vegetarian. And a few weeks later, I talked to him. He said: "You know, it's amazing the difference in my consciousness." He says: "I have become a completely different man." Yeah, he told me that. Prabhupāda: Well, yes . . . Revatīnandana: And he's a very intelligent man. He's in the Mensa Society, in London. Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature it is said the animal killers cannot understand God. Mother: Well, this is very good, that, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument . . . yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it. Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull. Mother: What about your children? Where do they . . .? Do they go to school? Prabhupāda: Why not? Mother: Are they edu . . .? Do they go to schools, your children? Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school. Mother: Well, I didn't mean yours in particular. I'm talking now of all of you. I'm not talking of you particularly. I'm talking of all of you. All your children, the married devotees . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas , householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school. Mother: But you have got a school, a Kṛṣṇa school? Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. Mother: And now, how . . .? Do they go through college? Prabhupāda: They are now little children. But we don't wish to send them to college. We have got sufficient books. Mother: So you'll cut off their education like that? Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense education? Revatīnandana: No, no. Mother: Now, do you think that's not cruel to them? Prabhupāda: We don't care for this . . . Revatīnandana: We cut off your education, and we take education from the *Vedas* and from our spiritual master. We learn how to read, how to write, how to handle numbers sufficiently, and whatever we need practically for our work. And we learn the science of God from our spiritual master. And we find that sufficient for us. We haven't got to spend extra time and many extra years irrelevant subjects that are never going to relate to our practical life or to our God conscious life. Jesuit Priest: But you're depending on other people, then, to do the other side of your life for you. Prabhupāda: We are not depending on anyone. Jesuit Priest: Well, what happens when suddenly one of you gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Jesuit Priest: What happens if somebody gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: So we give them medicine. Mother: You call the doctor. Jesuit Priest: No, you call the doctor, don't you? Prabhupāda: So we pay for that. Jesuit Priest: I know, but you call him, don't you? You want him to be. You want the doctor in existence. Prabhupāda: So does it mean to say that because we require necessary, we have to take education of medical man? Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men. Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily . . . Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our training is . . . first of all, try to understand. We . . . just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work—walking. The hand is doing its own work, and the belly's doing its own work, and the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg, but does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also. Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like . . . Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from . . . when there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: Yes. Well, as I say . . . Prabhupāda: It does not . . . Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse. Prabhupāda: You are asking us, "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take? Mother: Because if everybody . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no necessity. If the . . . if I can pay, I can get the help of a medical man, why should I waste my time in that way? Let me . . . *Mother: You think? Ah, but you should be self*-supporting. You should be . . . Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God. *Mother: You should be self*-supporting in that way. *Prabhupāda: Self*-supporting . . . we are self-supporting. Just like . . . I have given the example. The body, the social body—you can take of this body—there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: No, I don't mean that. You're misunderstanding me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then your question is replied. When I need the help of a medical man, I go to the medical man. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find. Mother: . . . you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no? Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that, "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question. Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question? Mother: Well, my brain works, and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. Mother: . . . and still be with God. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man? Mother: I think it's so sad to see a lot of very good . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Just, just try to understand this point. Mother: . . . young men becoming cabbages. Prabhupāda: They're misunderstanding. Yes. When I can get . . . just like here is father. He's trained up how to preach. He's not a medical man. But he doesn't require to learn the medical science. Mother: No, but I didn't ask you to be a doctor. I said some of your boys. Prabhupāda: Why . . . why you are asking? My boys are the same. Revatīnandana: Which ones? Which ones of us should become doctors here? Mother: Well, all, all, all . . . Revatīnandana: Supposing they all want to be preachers. Do you go to your seminaries and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox . . . Revatīnandana: No. No, no. Mother: . . . or typhoid, you . . . you know what smallpox is like in India. Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division. Revatīnandana: Do you go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: It'd be no good at all being priest if you had smallpox, would it? Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come . . ." Prabhupāda: We are treating them. Revatīnandana: ". . . and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers. Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes. Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us . . . you, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business. Mother: Well, my son is my business. Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent. Mother: Yes, but he was . . . Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you. Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university. Prabhupāda: But . . . that's all right. If some of our student goes to the university . . . there are many students . . . Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael. Prabhupāda: We don't object to that. Revatīnandana: Michael came to the temple in London, sat down, and didn't want to go away. Mother: He'd been taking LSD, and he was very sick. And somebody took him in. Prabhupāda: So . . . so when he was taking LSD, what did you do for him? Revatīnandana: Why was he taking LSD? He had wonderful education, happy home, so many things. Mother: Well, he was experimenting. Now this is it . . . Revatīnandana: So LSD is acknowledged a dangerous thing to experiment with. Prabhupāda: You like that? You like that? Mother: Well, he had a false . . . this was not . . . Prabhupāda: When he was taking LSD, did you like that? Mother: I didn't know, did I? Prabhupāda: Then? Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: And this is it. Prabhupāda: So there must be division for upkeep of the soc . . . that is missing. At the present moment, there is no division. Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD. Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be . . . there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of men has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be a preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that, "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (sound of jet) What is the use of talking? Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books. Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question. Mother: Is it not . . .? Prabhupāda: I say that there must be divisions. We are working on certain division. Mother: Well, tell me about the books you have translated. Are there some more to translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Well, one day you will die. Now who will translate them then, continue the translating? Prabhupāda: There are many. There are many. They are being trained up. There are many. Mother: Ah, yes. So people are being trained. Ah. This is what I'm asking you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Well, I explained that to you earlier, that we have our classes. Prabhupāda: We are training every day. Mother: But then, this is languages. You've got to, you've got to study languages. You can't just be taught . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. So a few of us, so the few of us who have an aptitude for Sanskrit language are studying Sanskrit language. Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit, we are teaching English. Especially. Especially we are giving training to our boys to learn simply English and Sanskrit. Then they will be help. By learning Sanskrit, they will be able to read . . . Mother: Latin? Latin? And . . .? What . . .? Prabhupāda: There is no need of . . . one language sufficient, English language, practical . . . *Mother: Ah, but then that is one*-sided then, isn't it? Revatīnandana: Most of us don't even study Sanskrit very much. Prabhupāda: No. Just like English book. We are translating in German, translating in France, in Spanish . . . Mother: But there's a lot of Latin that needs translating too. I mean, you must . . . you must, you must have a full understanding of everything if you're going to translate. Prabhupāda: Yes. It will be better. If you also join, then we'll have full understanding. (mother laughs) Mother: You have a sense of humor. Jesuit Priest: What language, master, was your books originally written in? Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Don't you find it extremely difficult to get the literal meaning from the Sanskrit to the English? Prabhupāda: No. You may; it may be difficult for you, but . . . Jesuit Priest: No, no. I'm just thinking . . . Prabhupāda: . . . for one who knows Sanskrit, it is not difficult for him. Jesuit Priest: When I did my studies, we had to do Greek and Hebrew and Latin and, naturally, reading the scriptures in English. But it helped enormously with a background of a little bit of Hebrew. Not very much. But certainly Greek and Latin. You get a much more comprehensive notion of what's in the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are teaching Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit to our students. Jesuit Priest: Yes, but all I was saying was isn't it difficult to get across at times what you can see the meaning in the Sanskrit, but you can't put it into acceptable English? You know what I mean. The idiom isn't the same. Prabhupāda: We are giving every word, meaning. The book . . . (aside) Have you got any book? Bring it. You can see. Each and every word of Sanskrit we are giving meaning. Our mode of presentation is first of all we put the original Sanskrit language in devanāgarī character. Then we give English, roman transliteration, pronouncing the same word by diacritic mark. Then each word is translated into English. Then we give translation, the whole. And then we give the purport. This is our way. So we are giving meaning of each and every word, means we have got considerable knowledge of that word. Otherwise how we can give? Yes. Jesuit Priest: I was just thinking how difficult it is. I read Latin pretty well. And Greek. And I can see the meaning in the original, in the Greek when it was translated from the Aramaic. Now in your translating you can get a phrase, and if you know the language, you know exactly what it conveys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Put it into English, and somehow, some of the meaning has come . . . Prabhupāda: Then that exact . . . Jesuit Priest: It's like the French. How do you say in . . . how do you translate "au revoir"? Prabhupāda: Otto? Revatīnandana: He's asking you how to translate a French word, "au revoir." Jesuit Priest: How do you translate into English? Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm not translating. The person who knows French language, he translates from our English. Jesuit Priest: Yes. No, well, I'm only trying to . . . a very simple question. It's not a question of trying to try anybody. I happened to say or give an example of what I mean. How'd you say in English, "au revoir." Prabhupāda: Just . . . just the . . . you have seen the . . . just show him how it is done. Yes, you can do it. Revatīnandana: That's all right. Mahādeva, you do it. Prabhupāda: You see the original Sanskrit. Mahādeva: Here's the text, here's the original Sanskrit. And we have a roman transliteration, and then individually, the word meanings. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I see. I've got it, yes. Mahādeva: And then a full translation. Jesuit Priest: Translation. Yes. They're marvelous. Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually, most of the Sanskrit, much of that work is done by one of Prabhupāda's disciples now. He handles much of the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being trained. Revatīnandana: It's a mechanical process, after all. But the translation, that requires not only knowledge of the language, it requires spiritual realization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the spiritual translation is done by Prabhupāda. Not just from knowledge of Sanskrit, but from spiritually realized knowledge. That is the qualification to put the meaning into any language. You have to have realized the message. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I agree. Certainly our, the great, in the Western Church, all the translations of the Gospels and the Old and New Testament is done by, for the most part, by men who were saints, and, in other words, it wasn't merely their knowledge of the language, but their incredible closeness to God, in every one of them, . . . (indistinct) . . . and Augustine and all the great men . . . Revatīnandana: The most recent translation accepted by the Church of England, in England, was done by Oxford scholars. Saintly men? I know some of them. I don't think they're actually saintly men. Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. Revatīnandana: Well, it's the modern . . . it's accepted by the Church of England and most other Protestant churches in England. It's the New English Bible . Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And it's recommended by all these Churches for their followers to read. And it's translated by scholars, Oxford scholars. Jesuit Priest: Yes. I see. I take your point, that you can have a translation which is purely academic and a translation which is not merely academic, but has a, sort of a spiritual experience behind it. *Revatīnandana: Um*-huh. Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by . . . I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to . . . doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow. Revatīnandana: Hmm. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Critchley just pointed out, that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD? Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so they, lots of the young people today . . . Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful. Jesuit Priest: There's a vacuum created, and so they either take it up in . . . Mother: It's very extraordinary, though, that every boy that I have spoken to here . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam . . . (BG 7.28). Mother: . . . have all taken LSD or drugs of some kind. *Prabhupāda: . . . janānāṁ puṇya*-karmaṇām. Revatīnandana: That was one who hasn't. Mother: Even your president . . . Devotee: I haven't. Mother: I said . . . Revatīnandana: This one, this one . . . Mother: The ones I have spoken to. I said the ones I have spoken to. Even your president . . . *Revatīnandana: And Father Bernard? Father Bernard spent twenty*-three years in a Cistercian monastery. He left and came to us right afterward, and he's never taken LSD. Jesuit Priest: Who was in a Cistercian monastery? Revatīnandana: Father Bernard there. Jesuit Priest: Are you a priest? Mother: But I say quite a lot of your young people have come to you since they took drugs. I've spoken to . . . even your president admitted that he'd taken drugs. Prabhupāda: There is no restriction for anyone. God is open for everyone. Mother: But you said . . . Michael, I said: "Most of the people that I have spoken to." I didn't say "Most of the people here." I said "most of the people . . ." One person I'd spoken to hadn't, but I can truthfully say that only one hadn't, out of the ones I've spoken to. They have come here . . . you are . . . you seem to be able to help the people that have taken drugs, so that . . . Prabhupāda: That is my duty. Mother: You've helped them tremendously, and I can see this, but I am so sad that you can't help them to further their education. That's all my . . . my problem is . . . Mahādeva: Prabhupāda was making the point that the purpose of education is to know God. Mother: Yes, I know. I know. Yes, he has, and I've seen that point. Prabhupāda: Don't you think this is education? Mother: Well . . . Prabhupāda: This translator work? Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we are teaching our boys . . . Mother: But you know what I me . . . Prabhupāda: . . . Sanskrit and English to translate the original Vedic lit . . . is it not education? Mother: Yes, I agree with you. That is education. But I mean a fuller education. Prabhupāda: You are trying to induce our students to become technologists, medical men. You want that. Mother: Yes, because the world must have them. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But our point is that if we can get the help of technologist by paying little money . . . Mother: Well, you'd laugh if you were ill and there was no doctor, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: . . . why should we waste our time? Mother: If you had acute appendicitis, what would you do? Devotee: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mother: Well, you wouldn't. You'd die. I mean . . . you laugh when I say that. Somebody's got to be a doctor. You're being very childish. Father agrees. There must be doctors. Revatīnandana: Well, it's good that . . . in the society we observe there are many, many people becoming doctors. But there are not very many people becoming brāhmaṇas , people who live a sinless life and who learn the science of God and distribute it to the people. There're not very many people . . . Jesuit Priest: I think that . . . I think that . . . Revatīnandana: Not very many, not very many people are doing that. Jesuit Priest: I don't know. I think that that's a gratuitous statement for which you can have no proof. Revatīnandana: I'm just saying not many people are doing it. How many pe . . . how many people, compared to the number of medical students in England, how many people are students in religious seminaries? Jesuit Priest: Well, do you know? Revatīnandana: No, I'm asking you. Jesuit Priest: Well, I do. I do. I do know it. Revatīnandana: So give us a comparison. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I . . . we've no problem at all . . . Prabhupāda: Now, another thing is . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . in finding plenty of young men to go along with the principles . . . Revatīnandana: Neither have we. And you're teaching them to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And Prabhupāda is teaching us to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I know . . . I've never questioned that . . . Revatīnandana: So there's no necessity, there's no necessity of canvassing amongst the seminaries or here for medical doctors. Jesuit Priest: No, no. You've missed the whole point. Mrs. Critchley's original statement was, if the young men here went on, not merely . . . keep the knowledge and the search for the knowledge and love of God, by all means, but let them go on to develop their knowledge in the world of science, in the world of learning, and thus become leaders in that particular branch with a spiritual motif behind it, and instead of enclosing yourselves inside a circle like this, being able to spread the love of God amongst the tens of thousands of young people in the world. That's all . . . Revatīnandana: No. I, I suspect . . . Mother: We need it. We need it. Revatīnandana: I suspect that for the hundred, hundred or hundred and twenty of us in England, I think, for the number of us, I'll bet we're doing more work per man to spread it among the young people than your mission is. Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't know. You're making this statement. I haven't proof. Revatīnandana: Well, I know that in almost all of our centers they certainly happen to be developing a temple like this. We spend every day, from ten o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night, engaged in preaching work. Jesuit Priest: I think most of us do, too. Prabhupāda: Now, in each of our center we have got minimum fifty heads, maximum two hundred, 250. In Los Angeles you'll see . . . just we have got recent photograph. (aside) Bring the photograph from my room. You can bring. So we are giving them place, we are giving them food, we are giving them education. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: In this way. So we invite anyone, everyone, without any distinction, without any discrimination—he may be Christian, he may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan—"Come on. Live with us, and learn how to love." That is our mission. We say, according to our Vedic description: If you actually want peace of your mind, then you must try . . . you must learn how to love God. So our preaching is—it doesn't matter, whatever religion you are following, it doesn't matter—if you have achieved this aim, how to love God, then your system is first class. That's all. That is our preaching. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Bhakti means love of God. How much you have learned to love God, that much we want to know. We don't say that, "You are Christian, you become followers of Hindu rituals or Muhammadan rituals." No. You remain in your position, but just try to love God to the best of your capacity. Mother: Well, I think we do that. Jesuit Priest: We're all doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Most people. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our mission. Now, if you find it difficulty, you can come and join with us. That's all. Practically, in Europe and America, they are all coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So . . . yes. This is a recent photograph of our Los Angeles center. They are regularly living in the temple, as they are living in the temple. Mother: Hmm. Put my glasses on, see if I can . . . look at . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And you'll also be surprised to know that this, this was a church, that building. It was a big church. So we have purchased it. Jesuit Priest: Very nice. Mother: In other words, your temple . . . do you call it your temple or a church? Prabhupāda: We call temple. Mother: A temple. And are these married and . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are married, there are sannyāsīs , there are brahmacārī , all kinds of people. It is not restricted. You see? So many children. They're having children. We are taking care of them. Everything. Mother: Now, do you have these temples in India? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mother: Because I myself haven't been to India, but my parents were there. And the Indian contingent from Dunkirk was billeted in my home in 1940, just before I married. Prabhupāda: Oh. There you see. Oh. Mother: And we had all the Indians there after Dunkirk, waiting for more Indians to come and join them. And we had the Hindus and the Muhammadans and the sweepers, and they all had their own houses. And they recovered from all the war damage, and they went off within about twelve months. They went off in '41, back to . . . Prabhupāda: There was some bombing in Calcutta, nothing more. Mother: Hmm. Ah, but these Indians were fighting in France. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Mother: Dunkirk. Prabhupāda: Dunkirk. Mother: And then they came, when Dunkirk was evacuated, they came back in all these little boats that they escaped in, and they got together and they billeted them . . . and I was living with my godmother in Shalden, in Devonshire. And we had eight acres. And the Army put up huts for them. And they lived there for about eight months until more Indians were sent to make them back to strength again, the regiments, big enough. And then they went overseas again. Some went to Burma, some to Italy. I don't know where they went, of course, but they were very good . . . Prabhupāda: They went to die, after all. Mother: They were very good soldiers. No, they didn't all die. Of course, some did, I expect. Prabhupāda: Some, (laughs) yes. Mother: But they were, they were very fine men. Jesuit Priest: Well, anyhow, thank you very much, Father, for letting us talk and for letting us listen to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here. Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for . . . Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life. Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Mother: Yes, we do that. Prabhupāda: That is our . . . *Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty*-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I? Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest? *Jesuit Priest: And I'm not only one, but there happen to be thirty*-three thousand of us in the world. Prabhupāda: Because you have become a priest, that means you love God. *Jesuit Priest: Yes. Fifty*-two years ago I made up my mind. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is understood. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are brāhmaṇa because . . . Mother: How do you know I'm a grandmother? Revatīnandana: No, he said brāhmaṇa . Mother: Oh! I thought you said grandmother! I am a grandmother. Prabhupāda: Now, that's it. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think we'd better be . . . Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam . Mother: Well, thank you very much. And . . . Mahādeva: Give it in the house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam there. Mother: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Mother: Well, I think we understand each other a little better. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you are fortunate that you have got so nice son like that. Mother: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye, thanks, good-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye, all of you. Bye. (guests leave) (break) Revatīnandana: . . . question that she said he came to us because he was taking LSD and he had a false religious experience. And the question is now, if they have access to a true religious experience, why was he looking for a false religious experience? Why was Michael looking for a false religious experience from LSD if he had already got true religion? They didn't understand. Their best children are taking LSD because they can't get any satisfaction from their parents' religion. Śrutakīrti: He answered that by saying he didn't have that supernatural grace. Revatīnandana: Yeah, why not? That's pretty clear, actually. "Well, we love God. Yes, we love God." A steak and a glass of wine and God. Śrutakīrti: I think a storm is coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: A rainstorm is . . . Prabhupāda: Rainstorm? No. Revatīnandana: Little, little . . . it might rain. It's not for a while. But when it gets misty, it sometimes rains. Prabhupāda: You can understand from the cloud. When it's blackish, then there is rain . . . (end) Conversation -- August 4, 1973, London (Conversation with Mr. John Papworth and Mr. E. F. Schumacher) Revatīnandana: So Mr. Papworth you know, and Mr. Schumacher will be up in a second. Prabhupāda: Yes, you came here before. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: How are you? Mr. Papworth: My invariable reply, sir, is that I am dying slowly. I trust you are well, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. Old man, (laughs) struggling. Spiritual consciousness is not dependent on material impediments. Mr. Papworth: I'm not hearing these beautiful words. (pause) Revatīnandana: He remarked that the spiritual consciousness is not impeded by material impediments—like the body. Mr. Papworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bathful of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it. Prabhupāda: What is your idea of meditation? (someone enters) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Sit over here. Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni. The Sanskrit word is muni . Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of "Crisis of Increasing Motorcars" in this paper. Actually, we are creating crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. *One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung, sat*-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye vilāsa (Gaurā Pahu). Sat-saṅga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa , we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu . . . there are two things: material and spiritual. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye . . . "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. *Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma*-bandha-phāṅsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motorcar Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading. Revatīnandana: Was it this one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (to guest) It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay. Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: It's called "The Economics of Permanence." Prabhupāda: Yes. "The Motorcar Crisis"? Revatīnandana: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location. Vicitravīrya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps. Prabhupāda: Heh? Vicitravīrya: It was in one of the magazines I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Here. Mr. Papworth: The one on Buddhist economics. Dr. Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence." Mr. Papworth: Oh. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (looking through magazine) "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article, "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit; another side, we make pollution. Dr. Schumacher: That's it. *Prabhupāda: This is the material . . . result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you . . . that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gītā . In the Bhagavad-gītā , we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mr. Papworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that? Revatīnandana: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking. *Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya , a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that, "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he become perfect. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it, but we say purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible. Mr. Papworth: It's possible to what? Prabhupāda: Purify. Mr. Papworth: Purify the pollution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Papworth: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). So everything should be done—that is called karma-yoga —in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized, bhakto 'si priyo 'si ( BG 4.3): "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go . . . we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it. Mr. Papworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it? *Prabhupāda: The means is that . . . our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana , chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we . . . we can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By . . . but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motorcar factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord," what their . . . what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say. Dr. Schumacher: I don't see the point. Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection. Dr. Schumacher: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange that, "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. But we don't demand anything that, "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So . . . from the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, everything will be purified. *Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). All problems will be solved. This is the beginning. Now, gradually, as people understand this philosophy, they will understand. They will understand. If they simply give us the chance. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Let them remain in their position. We don't disturb. We don't disturb. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Simply they will kindly give their aural reception what we are speaking. Mr. Papworth: Well, the diagnostic's not altogether clear to me how the chanting is going to affect the pollution. How do you see . . .? Prabhupāda: It is a purificatory process. Pollution means impure. So if you purify, then there is no more pollution. Just like infection. You have got some disease, infection. If you give some vaccine to purify the body, the infection is gone. It is like that. Revatīnandana: It seems that there's a difference in the usage of this word "pollution." Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: I think there's a difference in the way the word "pollution" is being used. Prabhupāda: Yes, whatever meaning you may do . . . Revatīnandana: So, for instance, if it is used to indicate air pollution . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . then how will the chanting will affect that? Prabhupāda: Yes, it will affect. Revatīnandana: He's asking how. Prabhupāda: How? That you do not know. You'll have to realize when you give us the chance. But if you give us the chance, there is no loss on your part. But you'll practically see how it is rectified, how it is . . . Vicitravīrya: Pollution is to some extent a result of materialistic activity? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vicitravīrya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is, these are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gītā . We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing that in Communist country. Haṁsadūta: Ah . . . Prabhupāda: You just explain to them. Haṁsadūta: They have a big youth festival there in East Berlin. Maybe you know? "The Festival of Youth." Mr. Papworth: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so*-called Communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect. Mr. Papworth: They were Communist youth who were surrounding? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Mr. Papworth: The people. Haṁsadūta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses. Mr. Papworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all Communist youth, are they? *Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about Communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because, huh, Communism, so*-called Communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism, because we recognize that the Supreme . . . Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy . . . Communist philosophy is, "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? So . . . but it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism. Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center. Mr. Papworth: Do you think that the Christian monasteries practiced this in the past, or perhaps even today? Haṁsadūta: Well, today, no one is practicing it. Otherwise why people are leaving the Church? No one is in the monastery, no one is in the church. They are abandoning it. Because there is no center. As soon as there is a center, it will carry weight. Just like a wheel. If there's a hub, if there's a hub, then it will carry weight. Mr. Papworth: I have not abandoned the Church. I have embraced it. Haṁsadūta: Anyway, our point is . . . we're speaking in general. In general, because the center, factually the center, God, is missing, somehow or other, He's missing, therefore people are also giving it up. They can't take it. Because it's not practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is practical. It's not a sentiment or a dry philosophy. It's a practical philosophy of life, absolute philosophy of life, how to do everything without any pollution, without any contamination. *Just like we are experiencing by our so*-called advancement that we have created so many modern facilities for comfort, but the result is, alongside, simultaneously, there's an equal disadvantage. Just like we create a motorcar, but we create air pollution. Or you create a highway, but you have to create snowplow to clear the highway. You have to create police. You have to create so many other things. Prabhupāda: And there is list of accidents, injuries. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here. His mother came here, along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said: "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure" as he had just been saying, "then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual . . ." Haṁsadūta: Vacuum? Revatīnandana: ". . . spiritual something at this time, spiritual lack at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet we have filled that lack, or rather our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that. Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause) Revatīnandana: How does the . . . how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit into your philosophy for, huh say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy? Dr. Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as . . . Revatīnandana: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on. Dr. Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: That's what I was saying, you see. Prabhupāda: When there is no food, so human life is more important than animal life. So the human life should be saved at the sacrifice of animal. That is another question. But where there is complete facilities to get very nice, nutritious food, why these poor animals should be killed? Dr. Schumacher: Sure. Revatīnandana: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that . . . Prabhupāda: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree. Dr. Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it? I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a simple question. Killing . . . do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill"? Dr. Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same times, you want to purify. How it is possible? *Dr. Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat*-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of treatment of animals is just, uh, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge. *Revatīnandana: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, then it can be changed. All of us are from meat*-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants, we've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life. *But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony*-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him . . . I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction. Mr. Papworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what? Revatīnandana: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said: "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology—no senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the *Vedas* , is a human birth. You're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not . . . an intelligent man who can sense that, "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's . . . *Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Chandragupta. So he was honorary prime minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat : "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. *So mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu . And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualification, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestation, treating all women as mother—treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; *and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principle? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says: Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected; it doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor . . . so this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore you expect. Mr. Papworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully, if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made is not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible—I don't say this to justify the killing of animals—but it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoebox, and then add two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it . . . it seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing. Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing? Mr. Papworth: Far more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Papworth: And young cows, calves, are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food—milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins—to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down. Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals? Revatīnandana: No, he's talking . . . he's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him . . . Haṁsadūta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop. Mr. Papworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then animals are free. They can go everywhere. Mr. Papworth: I think you are avoiding the point, you see. This is not . . . Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark, so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. Next stage of brute mentality . . . they're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not? Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not within the womb. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory. Dr. Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty . . . well, I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Dr. Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat*-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see—unless such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices . . . I think one should be a bit careful there. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all . . . all throughout history . . . Haṁsadūta: Therefore all throughout history . . . Dr. Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . you haven't . . . why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat . . . animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means . . . Prabhupāda: Pollution. Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting . . . just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction—air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed. Mr. Papworth: You think like this? Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's . . . there are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction. Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good . . . a good formula on this, and . . . Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy. Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat . . . Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say. Dr. Schumacher: . . . but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat . . . Prabhupāda: What is this? Dr. Schumacher: . . . so they let the Muslims kill the animals. *Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take . . . if the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal*-killer. Dr. Schumacher: Well, that is . . . Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat, if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat, if I eat the meat, I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic . . . there's a Vedic verse that explains it. Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course. Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking. In this way. Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution. Revatīnandana: This, this . . . Dr. Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue. Dr. Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it. Revatīnandana: Oh, it changes everything immediately. Dr. Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London . . . now, I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems. Haṁsadūta: Yes, let them come here. We will . . . Dr. Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming. Prabhupāda: Because there are restriction. Dr. Schumacher: That is not, that is not . . . that doesn't meet my point. My point is . . . Haṁsadūta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Kṛṣṇa can provide place for any number of His . . . Prabhupāda: Millions. Haṁsadūta: . . . devotees. Any number. Mr. Papworth: I found this the other day—and you'll forgive me making this point—but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest so we listen to what he has to say. Then answer him. Revatīnandana: But . . . just that this is interesting, that the solution is there . . . Mr. Papworth: But you haven't heard the problem yet. Revatīnandana: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand. Prabhupāda: But one thing . . . Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand? Prabhupāda: Mister, yes . . . I forgot your name. Mr. Papworth: John. Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world. Mr. Papworth: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure. All failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it. Dr. Schumacher: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory, but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories, but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathe . . . (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena , hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. *Mano*-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : how to become a brāhmaṇa , how to become a kṣatriya , how to become a vaiśya , how to become a śūdra , or how to remain less important than the śūdras . The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly . . . (break) (indistinct) . . . everything will be entwined with it. If you mix up, if there is no division, what is head what is leg then it is chaos and confusion. Revatīnandana: Just like for example the *Vedas* say that whatever unnecessary slaughter is going on there will always be a war going on. The society is constantly crying about war. One Vietnam War, the Second World War, the First World War and you go back all the way to the Greeks. It is war after war and what is the is always there? When they could be producing grains vegetables, fruits etc very nicely. They are instead producing animals for slaughter, by habit, by custom, that custom has gradually grown in this materialistic age. Eh. So . . . Prabhupāda: Nature will setup a reaction. Revatīnandana: The *Vedas* said this will happen. Immediately it is already the reaction is there, it is happening. Papworth: It seems to me we have already covered this ground. Revatīnandana: I don't. Papworth: In the sense that we were discussing whether vegetarian approach could be legitimately taken as a central point. Prabhupāda: No we are speaking of God consciousness, we do not speak on vegetarianism. No, we are this is . . . Papworth: Alright none killing. Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: None killing. Prabhupāda: It is one of the processes but our aim is God consciousness, not to become vegetarian. Papworth: But you see the one is means to the other. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But just try to understand. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . vegetarian simply . . . (indistinct) . . . live about. *Prabhupāda: Vegetarian.Just like a tiger, a tiger cannot be vegetarian. That is not possible, by nature it is non*-vegetarian. So I cannot ask a tiger, a dog, a jackal, to become vegetarian. But I can ask a human being who is not a tiger, a jackal or dog and he can take it, that is human consciousness. Just like all my students, they are coming from Europe and America. They were addicted to all these habits. Now, just see them, how they have given up? They do not drink tea even. Do not smoke even . . . They are all young boys and girls, how they have taken to it? And when they go to saṅkīrtan party, even the Americans they ask, "Are you Americans?" They are surprised, "how you have changed so much?" One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet, that these boys our boys they are coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So before this they would not care to see us, even come to the church, now how they are so much after God? They are mad after God. So there is a process to purify the whole society, so if we adopt that process then everything can be changed and in the process these four things are there. That no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Guest: Can I ask you what illicit sex means? Prabhupāda: Illicit sex is without marriage. In the human society there is marriage, in animal society there is no marriage. They can have sex life on the street. We cannot adopt the means of the animals. You are not expected to do the same thing as the animals do. That is humanity. Therefore actually if we are serious to purify the whole situation we have to adopt the standard method otherwise it will be futile. Dr. Schumacher: You see I don't contradict any of these things, but surely it is right to say that God or Krishna consciousness is the primary thing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: . . . but by fixing on just those four things. Prabhupāda: No not only four things. Dr. Schumacher: We are, we are introducing so many divisions into mankind. Revatīnandana: Yes, yes. Dr. Schumacher: The Christian is out because. Revatīnandana: Four classes are there. Dr. Schumacher: No, the Christian is out because Jesus drank wine. The Muslims are out because they eat meat. Others are out because they do not have the specific institution of marriage that we have. So surely we are substituting ephemeral things for the real thing. The real thing being God consciousness and are we not prepared to tolerate people who for instance drink wine? Revatīnandana: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Or even who gamble? Revatīnandana: Just. Dr. Schumacher: When these are not any more the central problems. I can't agree any kind of discipline . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is not central problem, that is proof of my students. They are coming from . . . you explain that Christian will be out but why they should be out? They were all Christians, how they are coming? Dr. Schumacher: Well Christianity is no longer acceptable teaching. Prabhupāda: No, they are Christians, they are Christians. How they have come? Dr. Schumacher: Well I don't know but . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know but you cannot say that the Christian will not come. Dr. Schumacher: No no they may come . . . Prabhupāda: It is the process of preaching, now they have come in dozens, if the preaching goes on they will come by thousands. We are preaching up intelligent class of men, doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu . . . Papworth: I quite accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . so intelligent class of men they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim. We do not make any bar, "Oh, you are Christian, you cannot come, you're Muslim you cannot come." We welcome the intelligent class of men. Dr. Schumacher: But if one eats prasadam . Prabhupāda: No, my point is that you say that Christians are out, that is not the point. Dr. Schumacher: No, I beg your pardon, I don't think Christians are out, I'd say Christianity . . . Prabhupāda: If they are intelligent person it doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or if, he will come. Dr. Schumacher: It is the four criteria I have stated then Jesus is unacceptable. Prabhupāda: No. Jesus is not unacceptable. We accept Jesus. Dr. Schumacher: To reform him? Prabhupāda: Yes, no we accept but we are simply saying that Jesus said, "Thou shalt not kill". Why the Christians are killing? That is our protest. Dr. Schumacher: Jesus was a meat eater and . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever Jesus may be, whatever he may be, he is Jesus Christ. You are not Jesus Christ, you have to obey his order, not his action. He is great, he can do anything, he is free to do anything, but you have to obey his order you haven't got to imitate his. You cannot imitate great personality. He might have done in circumstances, in different circumstances, that is his business, but if you are a real Christian you have to obey his order. Dr. Schumacher: Yes. Revatīnandana: He is in a semi desert region and you are not, that is the point. Simple as that. Prabhupāda: You cannot say that Jesus eat meat therefore we shall go on . . . (indistinct) . . . do you mean to say that Jesus said contradiction? He personally using eating meat and for others he says: "Thou shalt not kill." You mean to say, this is the philosophy of Jesus Christ? . . . contradictory. He is not contradiction it is our misunderstanding. Our duty should be, if one is really Christian strictly abide by the orders of Jesus Christ, that is our point . . . Revatīnandana: See, the śastras say they divide the human society, society into four groups. One group is God, second group is God's devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Not God, godly. Revatīnandana: No no but God is there the Supreme mode is there the devotees are there the innocent are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the demons are there who are envious of God and the devotees. See, the *Vedas* say you worship God with love and devotion, you make friendship with the devotees, you preach to the innocent who will hear and you avoid the demons. It doesn't matter if the demon is dressed in priests garb or he is dressed as Hitler. If he is a demon you recognise him by his qualities . . . Guest: Well . . . (indistinct) *Revatīnandana: His innocent qualities. There is a whole chapter in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: A demon does not believe in God. Defies God that is demon. Guest: I can't quite understand why consciousness can be transferred, can be communicated in debatable argument. You can try it, communicate consciousness, or assume that people have different consciousness. Prabhupāda: So what is your idea? To change the consciousness? Guest: You seem to be anxious to change the consciousness, or impose it. Prabhupāda: Everything is changed by debate and argument. Guest: I don't go there. Prabhupāda: Yes, why do you go to the Parliament? Guest: I don't go. Prabhupāda: You don't go but your father goes. Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: So that you will not discuss . . . (indistinct) . . . the . . . (indistinct) . . . one man. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, discussion, human reasoning's are there, philosophies are there, so you can establish the truth by discussion but if you are not after truth that is a different thing, that is a different thing. But if you are after truth, the truth must be established by bona*-fide discussion. Guest: I thought that the truth is, is, the truth of consciousness is that it is inside one, and it is alive and conscious. Not something that can be established with an objective truth. External to be. Prabhupāda: No, objective truth, truth is true. Just like God is truth, so we are not establishing God by discussion. God is there already we have to understand God by discussion, that's it. Truth is already there. Guest: We seem to be in a situation of hostility here which is totally unnecessary. Prabhupāda: No, why unnecessary? All preacher did it, eh? Lord Jesus Christ he preached and because people did not agree with him he was crucified. So discussion is always there, you cannot avoid it. Why he was crucified? What was his fault? Because people did not agree with Him. That's all. Papworth: But the central, the point that I think Doctor Schumacher was sharpening a bit was about the position of Christians in the terms of the four points, four rules of conduct that you enunciate, Jesus, the last message to those around him was take this cup of wine drink it in remembrance of me and ever since he died Christians week after week from generation to generation . . . Prabhupāda: Then how do you . . . Papworth: . . . to take the cup. Prabhupāda: Take his order? Commandment thou shall not kill. Does it mean that Jesus Christ was hypocrite? He was eating meat and advising not kill, do you think like that? Papworth: No well . . . Dr. Schumacher: Well the traditional interpretation of this both of the Jews and. Prabhupāda: That is not. Dr. Schumacher: Christians Prabhupāda: Tradition and . . . interpretation is different, but truth is truth. Dr. Schumacher: The traditional interpretation both of the Jews and Christians has always been that this refers to killing humans. Prabhupāda: That is for his convenience, he has invented but we have to take direct meaning. What does it mean kill? Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill," this is direct order. Dr. Schumacher: It is not ah . . . Prabhupāda: If you want to support in that way, interpretation, that is different thing. But we take the direct order. Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill" that should be taken directly, direct meaning, no interpretation. Why interpretation? When you can understand what is the meaning of killing, why you should interpretate at all? Everyone if you open the dictionary you can see the meaning, everyone knows what is the meaning of killing. Why you should interpretate at all? Interpretation is required when the meaning is not clear. Dr. Schumacher: Well, with respect interpretation is necessary, for instance, and was given this evening when I said: "Killing animals for protection" I was told that. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: That special? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Suppose a tiger is coming. Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . are the Eskimos killing animals because . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is . . . Dr. Schumacher: Different. So we are in the field of interpretation. Revatīnandana: The scriptures give all these dispensations. Dr. Schumacher: So we are in the field of interpretation? Revatīnandana: The scripture also gives dispensation. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The thing is that, "Thou shalt not kill". Suppose a tiger is coming here to attack. I shall kill it but I should not go to the forest to kill him. Dr. Schumacher: I accept all this, I accept all this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is the interpretation, it is not my business to go to the forest and kill him. Dr. Schumacher: That's right. Prabhupāda: When he comes to attack me, I must kill him. Why a tiger? Even a man comes to attack me I must kill him. That is another thing, but that means naturally I am not in favour of killing but if there is necessity, absolute necessity I must kill him, that is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: Well, I, this with great respect is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And therefore I can't sit here and say that all the Jews and all the Christians for thousands of years have all been wrong by interpreting the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" as referring to people. They have often enough transgressed that, so but the really worrying thing to me is while I accept that spiritual development requires certain disciplines and of course essential disciplines are some of those that have been named here, but surely we can agree that these are purely means to an end. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And that I do not really act as touchstone or something, sincerity or genuineness of the people, that one can choose quite a different set which would be perhaps in modern society even more irrelevant and it is particularly disturbing because we all know the great personalities who have done tremendous harm to mankind and spirituality . . . Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Schumacher: . . . who never had illicit sex, never gambled never intoxicate themselves and were very careless. So it is quite clear that these four things by themselves are as nothing. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Dr. Schumacher: This is the Christian teachings do not . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say, guṇa*-karma , quality and work, guṇa-karma vibh . . . suppose you have passed the law examination but you are not practising. Nobody will call you as a lawyer. So, when you are qualified to become a lawyer and practising, then you are a lawyer. Similarly, theoretical knowledge that these things will help but if I do not practice it then I am not qualified those things. But two things must be there, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . One must be qualified and at the same time practised in life then he is. Without practising simply theoretical knowledge will not do. These people, these students, they are practising they are not depending on the theoretical knowledge, they are practising. Dr. Schumacher: The practice, I am sure goes beyond the observance of these four precepts? Prabhupāda: Why? Unless you have accepted the precepts how you can practice? If you do not know, this is good, this is bad how you can practice to become good or bad? Guest: It's only practice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: It's only practice. Prabhupāda: Yes it must be practice. Guest: It's not the real experience. Prabhupāda: No, you must know what is what and practice it, that is called jñāna and vijñāna. Vijñāna means science or practical application, experiment that is science observation and experiment. Observation is theoretical and experiment is practical so when two combine then it is science. Papworth: I am intrigued that the four precepts make numerous references to truth or to love or to beauty and I wonder if you could not conceive it possible that people could follow these four precepts and still be living in ways which would deny attempts to prove this. Prabhupāda: Yes that is possible, therefore we say practice. Even we can accept one who is addicted to these four principles he can become also God conscious even accept that. Our point is that one must be God conscious either by following these precepts or not following these precepts, it doesn't matter. Dr. Schumacher: Oh alright, I am happy. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter, we want to see that he is God conscious because sometimes we see those who are addicted to these principles still he is not God conscious and one who is not addicted still he is God conscious, there is possibility. But these are the general, regulations. Just like Rabindranath Tagore, you know Rabindranath Tagore's name? A Bengali poet who. Dr. Schumacher: Rabindranath yes. Prabhupāda: Rabindranath, Tagore. Dr. Schumacher: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Yes, he never went to school but he was offered doctorate title from Oxford University, yes. So that does not mean everyone should not go to school and he will get the doctorate title. It is not general, specific, that is another thing, so we have to discuss the general principle. Specifically it is possible, but even one is addicted to all these principles he can be completely God conscious, that is possible. And even one is not addicted, he may, he can become a demon. So these are uncommon exceptional cases but generally this is the rules. *Dr. Schumacher: I'm sure you appreciate my difficulty when it comes to meat eating but ah, ninety*-nine out of the Christian saints were in fact not vegetarians and so from my point of view this is not the very rare exception like Rabindranath Tagore getting honorary degree and it is a very specific Indian tradition of which I am very much aware, Southeast Asian tradition to put this great emphasis on vegetarianism, but it does seem to me a little bit out of focus to condemn a Jesuit because he does not immediately take on that point. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Schumacher: This is really what gave rise to this conversation. Revatīnandana: He didn't click on any of the other points either. Dr. Schumacher: That I wouldn't know (laughs). Revatīnandana: The *Vedas* say that and this again, a general rule, a meat eating mind cannot understand spiritual life. This man. Prabhupāda: That is general. Revatīnandana: Couldn't understand the general principle, we are talking about changing the general society, you have a general society of meat eaters you want them to understand spiritual life. It is going to be a very difficult situation. Prabhupāda: The *Bhāgavatam* enunciation of religion is given there, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. (SB 1.2.6) Religious systems there are many religious systems chiefly Hinduism, Christianity, Mohammedinism or Buddhism, it doesn't matter. We don't say that you are Buddhist or you're Christian, you become a Hindu. We never say that. We do not say that, our policy is not proselytisation it is not our process we simply ask people that you become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Try to understand God and love him, that's all. But these regulative principles are favourable for your advancement, that is our mission. Dr. Schumacher: This I accept. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can a lover of God, you can become without following these regulative, we have no objection to it. We want to see that you are actually lover of God. Dr. Schumacher: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But then another thing is that I cannot pretend that I am lover of God my actions will be, ah proved. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , God consciousness means brahma-bhūta, brahma-jñāna , this is technical pure. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that one who has become God conscious, brahma-bhūta , Brahma not materially conscious, that is called brahma-bhūta , God conscious brahma-bhūta . *One who has become God conscious he does not lament or hanker, first two qualification. If somebody says: "I am God conscious," then I will have to see the symptoms whether he is God conscious. So these are the symptoms, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , he is jolly (coughs) and jollyness (coughs) means no hankering and no lamenting. So long one is materially conscious he has got two symptoms, he is lamenting for the loss and hankering for the gain. So God conscious person will be free from these two symptoms, na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , and he will observe all living entities on the equal level. So soon as I see that he is addicted to animal killing that means that he has not come to the position to see all living entities are the same level. That is also another symptom of God consciousness, if God is the original father that is expressed here: All living entities in any form, "I am the seed giving father", God is the father we are changing in different forms of body by a evolution, or something else, by karma . But I am the spirit soul, spark part and parcel of God, so you are. You may be in different dress, just like you are in black coat, I am in saffron cloth that does not mean you're not human being. The dress may be different, change. Similarly all living entities either he is a human being or a cat, or dog a cow they are all part and parcel of God. So one who is God conscious he cannot kill any other animal, he will not allow. He will never agree because he knows that the cat, or dog or a learned brāhmaṇa , their dress may be different but the living spark, the soul is the same. So he cannot give any pain to any living entity, that is one of the symptoms of being God conscious. Guest: If you say that fact, can I ask you about sacrifice because you allowed in fact, if a tiger came to your house or a man even came to your house. Prabhupāda: Hm. Guest: You would legitimately kill him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: What is the em . . . Prabhupāda: That is the already explained. Guest: Hm. Prabhupāda: . . . if to kill a tiger who is coming to attack you and to kill an innocent animal in the slaughter house, do you think it is the same thing? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest: But in terms of God consciousness it must be. Prabhupāda: But God consciousness does not mean that he is a grand fool. That he will not kill a tiger who is coming to attack him, he is not a fool. Guest: In religious thoughts . . . Prabhupāda: There is no religious thought. You have come to attack me, I must kill you first. Guest: Why? Prabhupāda: Why, because you are my enemy. Guest: But, eh according to the Christian teachings you should love your neighbour. Prabhupāda: But that is not our teaching that we shall become a grand fool, somebody is coming to attack me and kill me and I shall say: "Yes sir kill me, yeah you are very good". That is not our philosophy . . . if somebody. Papworth: Do you not accept . . . Prabhupāda: Generally I don't want to kill you but if you become my enemy, if you want to kill me, I must kill you first. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is means. Just like Arjuna. Guest: If God is in the form of all living. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be but on the material platform I may be God conscious you may not be God conscious, then why you should come to kill me? So it is not our philosophy that anyone comes to attack you, a tiger, we shall embrace them, "Yes sir, come on kill me." That is not our philosophy. If you are aggressor, if you are coming to attack me, so it is my first duty to kill you first. Guest: By what right? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: By what right? Prabhupāda: Because you are my enemy. Guest: That doesn't seem to. That creates a division. *Prabhupāda: This is useless argument, if enemy you must be killed. Must be killed. That is the whole philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . That as God conscious person Arjuna, you have read Bhagavad-gītā ? He was sensitively, "No, no why should I kill" but Kṛṣṇa said. Dr. Schumacher: I know that. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, Arjuna was hesitating. Dr. Schumacher: He was hesitating, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes hesitating but Kṛṣṇa said no. Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You must kill them because they are enemy, this is our philosophy. Papworth: Suppose you are mistaken? Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Supposing you are mistaken? Prabhupāda: Why you should suppose? You are mistaken. Papworth: People have been mistaken before. Prabhupāda: No if you are guided by the perfect person you cannot be mistaken. Dr. Schumacher: I think that in practice all good men are always agreed on this. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Schumacher: Em, but they aim at non*-killing but there are situations which. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Which cannot be avoided. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Em I'm not bothered about that, I am bothered about any teaching which really asserts that the brāhmaṇa and the cat are in effect on the same, the same level because it seems to me that . . . *Prabhupāda: This is higher level because one sees the same spiritual spark within the brāhmaṇa and within the dog. That is clear vision, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . (BG 5.18) You find out this verse. Yes. That paṇḍita I have already explained, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita also said: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54) He is paṇḍita he is learned. So what is that. Pradyumna: *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." Prabhupāda: Hm? What is the purport, is it there? Pradyumna: "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, or a cow, or an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge." "As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramātmā regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramātmā is present both in the outcaste and in the brāhmaṇa , although the body of a brāhmaṇa and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality. The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body, whereas the Paramātmā is present in each and every body." "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction." (pause) Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam . Revatīnandana: See what I'm noticing is that there is two ways to follow this logical progression. If a man is a vegetarian and he doesn't drink, he is not necessarily God conscious. He could be a demon, there are cases, we admit that, right. So. Prabhupāda: Generally he is demon. Revatīnandana: Yes. Generally. Prabhupāda: Not he could be. Revatīnandana: No, I'm saying he. Prabhupāda: Exceptionally he may not. Revatīnandana: No, if he doesn't do it, if he doesn't eat meat. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: If he doesn't, still he may be a demon, he won't necessarily be God conscious, right, but if he comes into the association of a God conscious person and God conscious knowledge. He'll be able to understand it very readily, in most cases. He has a very good chance of understanding it. If a man is a meat eater and a drinker etc., he cannot be accepted very, except in very rare case, like Jesus Christ being God conscious. And if he comes in contact with God consciousness he has a very difficult time to understand, right. Therefore what we are saying is that the business is to become God conscious, yeah. In almost every case a necessary, a necessary precondition that he accepts these four principles, then he can progress further. Fortunately he cannot understand (background cough) to do this very well in this age, most people cannot understand. That is why we say, just let us go there and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The purifying effect will overcome the reaction of the sinful life. He will become able to understand it but when he understands it he has to progress spiritually then these things become unimportant. We don't mind that the general society is engaged in these activities we were also engaged in them but simply that people should not oppose these principles and should allow us to do the kind of work that opens people's minds spiritually. Then they will put these things aside, then they can advance. Otherwise they will go on with the slaughter house and the war constantly and then have a very hard time to ever understand these things. This is our point. Prabhupāda: Now take a little prasādam . Mātājī: We have a. Prabhupāda: First of all. (break) Kṛṣṇa prasādam . Mātājī: We want to give you one of these. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. This one . . . (indistinct) Papworth: I can't understand why anyone should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you have got such nice beautiful substitute, why should you go to take meat? Dr. Schumacher: Oh I quite agree. Revatīnandana: Actually we distribute as much as possible, to as many people as possible. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . not lamenting and not critical. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And if you can keep that up then you will get away with many things. I mean this is our teaching, our Christian teaching is. Look, if you come into a family and they are meat eaters of course you can't take . . . (indistinct) . . . if you come into a family that are vegetarians. Prabhupāda: No we go to family of meat eaters, they give us vegetable we eat. Dr. Schumacher: Yes but our instructions are you see that we should not mind, we should not be precious but. Prabhupāda: No no. Dr. Schumacher: Because the essence of the matter if you're not craving you're not craving and your not . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . this is vegetarian, strictly . . . Lord Fenner*-Brockway. Papworth: We are concerned as a Christian and the way my religion is full of things saying, "Thou shalt not," but I am much more interested in, what I shall do? *Prabhupāda: Hm? You shall eat vegetables, "Thou shalt not kill," that's all, as we are doing. We are not dying because we do not eat meat, if there is substances such as nice foodstuff why should we kill a poor animals? This is common*-sense reasoning. If there is no food I cannot starve and die, then I must eat, that is another thing. When there is substitute in America and England, so nice things are there, we can prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations from cow's milk, besides that we have got another philosophy. Cow is one of the mothers. There are seven mothers, out of them cow is one. So the animal eaters at least they must save their mother cow. If animal eating is at all necessary they can eat other animals, just like in India. Those who are animal eaters they take goats, hogs but they never kill cows because they consider, Hindus especially, cow is mother and it is mother because we are drinking her milk. Guest: Why is it India's so violent? Prabhupāda: Because they are following the Vedic principles. Guest: So violent? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: Why is it that India's so violent? If it has lead such a vegetarian life. Prabhupāda: Who said that vegetarians should not be violent? Who said? Guest: Well. Prabhupāda: We have already explained that if there is enemy then you must be violent that is already explained . . . Revatīnandana: See there are so many, as I said these four things they are to encourage, they are to create an atmosphere for further progress. The further progress is when you prepare your food you understand it is Kṛṣṇa's food, so you offer it to Kṛṣṇa with devotion. *You sing the glories of Kṛṣṇa and you find out how to utilise your talents your occupational duties propensities for the satisfaction of the Lord. You raise your family to love Kṛṣṇa to chant the glories of Kṛṣṇa, to eat prasādam , you progress spiritually in a positive way because you have pulled out your anchor of sinful life, therefore you can move, and then when the anchor pulled you have a favourable breeze because from the scripture and the spiritual master you learn so many positive activities which comprised are what we call bhakti, bhakti*-yoga . Devotional way of becoming conscious of God, so the positive side is joyful process, but that joyfulness is allowed to grow when you pull up the anchor of sinful life. There is a story about a gentleman who . . . whose son was getting married to a girl in another village down the river and the custom was that the groom's entourage party would go to the village of the bride and be maintained there as guests by the parents of the bride and then the marriage would take place. So they went down one night and chartered a riverboat to take them down to the next village for the marriage and they proceeded to take their rest and in the morning when they awoke they were surprised to find that as the sun was rising they hadn't gone anywhere. So they complained to the boat keeper, "Why haven't you brought us anywhere?" He said: "Oh I am as surprised as you are, all night we have been rowing," it was a very dark night. And they looked and they hadn't moved because they have forgotten to pull the anchor. You can act very nicely but if. Just like I'm going to church, I'm giving money to the church, I'm giving to the charity so many things and yet I am not becoming ecstatically attached to the loving service of God. In fact I'm falling more and more into materialism, I'm loving Mammon more and more. So many Christian people are actually displaying that, for all their following of the rituals and the rights of the church they are still showing more and more attachment for Mammon because they have, they have a situation where they don't have to commit any kind of sinful activity and yet they are doing it. That is all right, but when they are told about it they resist, that is the demonic side. Guest: Can I ask you what is evil what behinds the evil? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He is asking how you see evil? What is evil? Prabhupāda: When there is no God consciousness that is evil. This is the sum and substance, if you're not God conscious then everything is evil for you. This may be different, but you are in evil or as you say in the Christian, Satan. If you're not under God then you are under Satan. And Satan is evil. So anyone who is not God conscious he is in evil. That's all. Guest: Is that a force outside the individual or is it a force within the individual? Prabhupāda: Why you are dragging Indian we are talking of general. Revatīnandana: No no, he says, is that a force inside the individual, evil, or outside the individual? Is evil something that impresses me from outside or is it from within? Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not God conscious he is overwhelmed with evil, inside and outside both. We have to purify therefore inside and outside both. Guest: Do you really think then that anybody cannot be God conscious? Prabhupāda: What? Guest: By the nature of this creation God, the father, can anyone not be God conscious? Prabhupāda: No everyone can be God conscious, not to become God conscious, that is artificial. That is Satanic. To become God conscious is natural. So people who are not God conscious means they are living unnatural life. That everyone must have a father, so if one says I do not know who is father, that is unnatural life. Natural life is he must know, similarly the original father is God. If he does not know that is unnatural life and as soon as one comes to his natural life then he is all right, he's perfect . . . anything more? Guest: No, hardly, thank you. Prabhupāda: Mr John? Papworth: When I was a small boy I was told always to leave something on my plate as a sign of politeness, but your food is so nice that I was forgetting the rules. Everyone: (laughs) Revatīnandana: Hm? Prabhupāda: Before coming, joining. Revatīnandana: Oh yeah, that was the first thing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Revatīnandana: That was the first thing. I didn't like the philosophy at all. Everyone: (laughs) Revatīnandana: But I couldn't stay away from the love feast on Sunday. See one thing you pointed out in your article, what was it called? The one about . . . ah . . . Dr. Schumacher: Christian responsibility? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . no the other one. Prabhupāda: (aside) some more . . . (indistinct) Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . I'm making the argument that are we sort of accepted and authorised for containing forces of modern industrial society and therefore it will come to a bad end. I don't think. I quite agree, I don't think that completes the register of the cardinal sins, or deadly sins rather, deadly sins. Of course we have seven of them, to distinguish. We . . . (indistinct) . . . only two. Revatīnandana: Yes how . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Then the animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex and gambling. If one is supporting these then we don't take him as disciple. All in one word, one who is not God conscious he is not a disciple. That is our general conclusion. It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that: "Those who are demons, āsuraṁ bhāva , atheist, they do not believe in God or surrender to God and these demon class men are divided into four classes. The first class, or the first division is miscreants, always committing sinful life, miscreants— duṣkṛtinaḥ. Duṣkṛtinaḥ means impious activities and the next, mūḍhāḥ —rascal, fool and the third narādhamāḥ . The lowest of the mankind and the fourth even though he is advanced, according to modern education, his actual knowledge has been taken away by the illusory energy." "These class of men they never become God conscious they never surrender to God. So our test is, if one is not God conscious, then he must be in either of these groups, from this logical conclusion. He may be outwardly very decent, but because he is not God conscious he does not understand what is the science of God, we do not take him as decent. We take him in these groups." Papworth: I'm not sure I have made my point. You see what I was going on to say, probably. Is that I believe that the dominant institutions of modern life are in the control of evil forces. They are not controlled by ordinary people who at least I feel are decent and that if people did control these forces I think that there would be a basis for spiritual progress in human affairs. Where at the moment there is none, now all you are saying in your philosophies seems to me to the great effect that it is possible in modern society for very very small but very powerful minority of people to manipulate millions and billions of people in ways which they cannot stop from doing. When you think last year £10,000,000 was spent on advertising cigarettes. Prabhupāda: Hm? Papworth: You say man mustn't smoke. How much is. Prabhupāda: Ten millions. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . advertising. Haṁsadūta: Pounds for advertising cigarettes. Smoking. Papworth: Smoking. Haṁsadūta: Ten million pounds was spent for just advertising. Prabhupāda: Yes that I see in your country, all big big boards—boarding, cigarette and wine advertisment. Papworth: The majority of people all through history have never been interested in verbal articulation about questing for God, this has always been a minority concern but common people have always been ready to follow positive lead, you are finding this in your work, but you come to this barrier where the majority who do not have the independence of mind. That those who have decided to follow you possess and . . . Prabhupāda: No they were always independent. Papworth: You're principles of that defect. Prabhupāda: It was not obligatory, I simply preached I never asked them that you become dependent on me. I simply invited them just like I have invited you. We are talking, you are independent so similarly I invited them. Dr. Schumacher: That's what he said, that's what he said. Prabhupāda: Yes, so we keep everyone's independence but we talk on philosophy, we give them prasāda , we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, God's holy name this is our process. So one becomes attracted he becomes intimately related. We don't touch anyones, neither God touches, God also does not interfere with your independence because God is fully independent and you are part and parcel of God so you have also got independence, the quality, but he is unlimitedly independent. *We are limitedly independent, so as in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that you surrender unto me I shall solve your all problems, I shall give you protection. Now he does not force him, although he is God, he can force him. "You must, I must force you," no no he doesn't do so. In another place Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru . . . eh? In the eighteenth chapter. Pradyumna: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru , he after instructing Bhagavad*-gītā he said that I have spoken to you everything, now whatever you like you can do. That means he is not touching his independence, "Whatever you like". So even God does not touch individual person's independence. So independence is always there. Pradyumna: "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do." Prabhupāda: That's it. "Do what you wish to do, not that I'm forcing you, it is up to you to accept this philosophy or not." So we are preaching entirely. These boys and girls they have joined voluntarily there was no bribe giving and I. What can I give them? I am sannyāsī I have no money to bribe them. (laughs) Or to give them some material facilities, what can I give them? You and all European and American what can I give you? So they have voluntarily joined, "Yes it is nice". Therefore we are confident that if this movement is pushed on just in this way wherever we shall go the intelligent class of men will join, there is no doubt about it. Revatīnandana: See once I heard Śrīla Prabhupāda say that the . . . actually, that we agree that the general mass of people they are being misled. They are not so much demonic but they are being misled. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: By general, by a nucleus of leaders in high positions who are very much demonic. Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). This is stated in the Bhāgavad Gi . . . *Bhāgavatam* , that a blind man is leading thousands of blind men. So what will be the result? The leader is blind and the followers are blind, so what will be the good result? Both will fall in the ditch. Andhā yathāndhair , one who is leader he must have eyes, he must have full knowledge, what is what, then it will be all right. So not the people are to be blamed but because the demoniac leaders are misleading them therefore the social condition is like that. So if the leaders of the society they will try to understand what is God, what is God consciousness, how people can be happy. Then the society can be changed immediately because the others they will follow the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate. (BG 3.21) Papworth: Are you saying that Kṛṣṇa conscious, people imbued with Krishna consciousness are somehow going to be victorious in the political dogfight? Prabhupāda: Well generally we are not interested in politics, but if need be we can take politics also because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is all pervading. It includes religion, philosophy, politics, sociology, science everything, everything. It is all pervading, God is everywhere it is not that God is only church, in the church or in the temple, God is everywhere. Guest: What you mean by, "Need be"? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: What you mean by, "If need be"? Prabhupāda: Need be, when we see that the politicians are simply making embezzlement we may take part in politics also. Guest: Isn't that now? Prabhupāda: Now we are not, we few people what can we do? Suppose if I am made the president of the United States, what can I do there? The whole atmosphere is polluted, it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. I cannot do anything, so why should I waste my time, to become elected as president. I know that I shall not be able to do anything, the whole atmosphere is polluted. Papworth: But are you worried about pollution? Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: You're not really worried about pollution, are you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . otherwise why are we pushing on this movement, if we are not worried? We are seeing that people are suffering on account of this pollution. So as they are God's sons, they are misled, so I'm also God's son, let me help my brothers. That is the necessity of this movement. Otherwise why am in old age—80 years old I'm travelling all over the world. I am feeling for them, that these poor people being misled, let me try to save them to my best capacity, that is all. Papworth: But in your travelling by must, your aeroplane is adding to the pollution, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes pollution without . . . Revatīnandana: He is using, this word is being used two different ways, your way of using pollution and his way, two different words. Vicitravīrya: He is talking about material pollution. Revatīnandana: He is talking about smog in the air, the air pollution . . . Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. Revatīnandana: You're talking generally . . . Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. That includes the greater pollution. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . New York, when you talked about pollution in . . . Prabhupāda: Our pollution means when one is not God conscious, he is polluted. Papworth: Ah! Prabhupāda: Our pollution. Papworth: I see. Prabhupāda: And your pollution includes that. Papworth: No I was using it in a technical sense. Prabhupāda: No, not technical sense, anyone who is not God conscious he is polluted, that's all. It doesn't matter what he is, that is our philosophy. Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: You see, just like devotees they like to live simply, in villages, they like to do it. They just grow some food, have a temple there, cows and they offer the food and the milk on the altar to the Lord and take that food and study the *Vedas* and become God conscious. Devotees like to live simply in villages that our, that's the Vedic culture, to live simply and God conscious life in the village. Prabhupāda: Now I see these village, so many vacant lands are there. So much that is not been utilised properly and people are being dragged in the city, London and they are struggling hard. The basic principle of civilisation is polluted, you see. Nobody is producing food everyone is producing knives and spoons, that's all. But knife and spoon will be required when there is food. But nobody is producing food, everyone is interested in factory, that we have also condemned this industry. Actually this modern industrialisation is spoiling the whole scheme of God. Why? They should be engaged in producing food and then they will have enough time for becoming God conscious. You have very nicely described all these industrial deficiencies, I have very much appreciated. Unnecessarily they are engaged to become śūdras and fourth class and tenth class men, due to this industry. So our Gandhi he tried to keep the men in the village, he had an organisation, village organisation. That was a very nice scheme but his disciples, Jawaharlal Nehru and company, he made all digged up. He wanted to become like America, overnight. So he changed the whole policy therefore India is in a confusion. Papworth: Who was it changed the policy? I think. Several: Nehru. Prabhupāda: Nehru, yes. He wanted that India should be America, overnight immediately. We have got our independence, so he deprecated anything Indian. Papworth: I seem to recall Gandhi's last message to Nehru was disband the Congress Party. Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Disband the Congress Party it was Gandhi's last message to Nehru. Prabhupāda: Disband the Congress Party? Papworth: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know, but they are sticking to Congress Party. Papworth: (laughs) Prabhupāda: His daughter is now prime minister, she is also in Congress Party. No, no it is not a question of Gandhi or Nehru, people should live natural life. God has given you land, God has given you cows, so if you simply keep one or two cows for each man and if you have got a little land your whole economic question is solved. There is no economic problem at all. Papworth: Is there enough land in India to give everybody several acres? Prabhupāda: If there is no India why not provide here in England? Why do you differentiate from India and England? That is not . . . lack of God consciousness. Papworth: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is lack of consciousness, why you are thinking that England is yours? It is God's. Why America is thinking that America is ours? The God consciousness means everything belongs to God and if you take total land of the whole earthly planet there is enough potential for producing food for ten times population as what it is now. God is so perfect, but we are making this ah, turmoil, "Oh you are Indian, you don't come here", or "You are British you don't come here." That is our creation, God has given enough land, enough land. In Africa, in Australia I have seen so much vacant land, lying without any utilisation but they have created this clique, "No no you can come here." Why? Lack of God consciousness. Dr. Schumacher: If it were just a matter of cultivated area per head of the population, the British would go to India.(laughter) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Schumacher: The amount of cultivated area per head of the population. Prabhupāda: If you make God center, then there is no difficulty British going to India or India coming to England. Revatīnandana: As I was reading. Have you noticed how the rains are stopping around the world? Ah? You've noticed? It's raining less and less in my state of California, here in England, in India, North Africa everywhere it is raining less. Dr. Schumacher: Thank goodness. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: How are you going to grow any foodstuffs when it stops raining? Prabhupāda: Yes the real key is in the hand of God, if it stops raining all your programme and philosophy will go to hell. And that is stated in the . . . predicted, that as we advance in this age there will be no more rain and there will be scarcity of food and on the other hand the government will levy heavy tax, people will become mad. Revatīnandana: So that. *Prabhupāda: Locate that in Bhagavat : anāvṛṣṭyā, anāvṛṣṭyā durbhikṣa*-kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9) That is already predicted that these things will happen. Devotee: Excuse me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is coming there will be cloud in the sky, there will be no rain simply lightning these are all predicted and gradually at the end of this age there will be no food grains. Papworth: No progress? Prabhupāda: Food grains. Others: Food grains. Guest: (indistinct) . . . that are grown. Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, fourth chapter. Guest: (indistinct) . . . grow. Prabhupāda: So the only solution is to make this propaganda that people may become God conscious. Now the simple method we are recommending to chant the holy name of God. We don't say that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you are Christian you have got God's name, so you chant that, where is the objection? If the Christian people are requested that you chant God's name. Papworth: They do! Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Hallelujah! Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotees: Hallelujah. Vicitravīrya: I think it means praise the Lord or something similar to that, it is in the Bible. It means to praise the Lord, praise God. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Papworth: Hallelujah. Pradyumna: It's like Jaya . Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: It's like Jaya . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also good but they must come to God, at least. Without coming to God simply theorisation, has no solution. People must come to God. Papworth: On that we are completely agreed. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to do that. You write in your papers don't be a rascal, come to God, then everything will be solved. Papworth: My difficulty is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I don't say that you write in our book, you write that Christian religion, Christian people who believe in God, so please chant the holy name of God in every house, every factory everywhere. Just see how it changes. Make this simple and we don't say that you, you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa we say that you chant the holy name of God. If you have got the holy name of God you chant it. Papworth: Well Kṛṣṇa is a very beautiful name. Prabhupāda: That's nice, but if you have got objection you can chant your beautiful name, what you have got. Papworth: But when I am writing in my journal, people are always saying to me, "This is all very well but you are not writing about spiritual matters." When I come here you are discussing spiritual matters but you don't do very much on practical matters. Prabhupāda: Eh? We are practical, we are very practical. We are providing so many men who are living in nice house, nice consciousness, nice food. What do you want more? Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can live with us and see. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But as soon as you will hear of the restriction you will go away. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: "There is no tea, Sir." (laughs) In the morning you will require tea we cannot supply . . . (aside) Hm. You have got that? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah! Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Let me have it. Pradyumna: . . . parjanyaḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah, that is another thing. Here it is stated, predicted: *The prajāḥ , the citizens will be exploited by the greedy government officers, it is clearly stated. Rājanyaiḥ, rājanyaiḥ means the government officers, prajā hi lubdhai, lubdhaiḥ —greed, greedy, lubdhaiḥ means greedy. Yes they take to politics for exploitation to become Minister and exploit, that's all. Everyone knows it . Prajā hi lubdhai rājanyair nirghṛṇair dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ , their profession is just like thieves and rogues, ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā . In this way when there will be too much exploitation, yāsyanti giri-kānanam. They will flee away from the . . . will go to the . . . take shelter in the hills and forests. Revatīnandana: Already the hippies are doing it. Fleeing from the cities to live like animals in the hills. I have just talked with them in North Devonshire. That's a desperate condition. Prabhupāda: Here it is said: In this age even for a little money, I need from your pocket. Even if you are own man, I can kill and take it, take the money. Even if you are my relative so because I need that money, little money what you have got, I will kill you. These are the symptoms given: In this age nobody will give protection to old father, here. And even own children, wife, simply for the sense gratification he will give up all connection. The description, if you come some time I will explain. Now, as gradually this age will make progress then people will lose interest in religion, in truthfulness, in cleanliness, in forgiveness, in mercifulness by the advancement of this age people will reduce their duration of life, bodily strength and memory. These are the predictions. You may be, whatever you may be, it doesn't matter, if you have got money, then you are respectable man, that's all. (laughs) And it is also mentioned, just this . . . anad anāḍhyatā eva asādhutve if you have no money, then you are dishonest, sādhutve dambha eva tu, if you are very proud then you become honest: Eh? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur, dāmpatye , husband wife relationship will go on only on liking. It is not that, "oh (s)he is my wife and my responsibility to maintain her and he is my husband it is my duty to serve him." These considerations will not be there, if I don't like, then I don't like, you go away, I go away. And man or woman the relationship will continue only on sex understanding, ratir . And a brāhmaṇa means having a sacred thread, that is all, he may not be any qualifications. And marriage will be simply by agreement. Hm. One will be considered very expert if he can maintain a small family. He will be considered as Lord of eh? Letchmore. Devotees: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: If he can simply maintain a small family, ah . . . dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba*-bharaṇaṁ yaśo 'rthe . And people will be religious simply for reputation, "no this man is religious" that's all. Revatīnandana: This is all five thousand years ago this was written down and it wasn't like that then. This is predictions. *Dr. Schumacher: It would be interesting to read this side*-by-side with the Book of Revelations. Revatīnandana: Yes, I read that 'Book of Revelations' recently and I can't make heads nor tails out of it. This is very clear. (laughs) Guest: . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: I think everyone can make it in his own way. *Prabhupāda: Now it is mentioned here also that: lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam , people will consider to become . . . he has become very beautiful by keeping long hair. Devotees: (laugh) *Prabhupāda: That is also . . . lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam , that we see practically. These are predictions, five thousand years these predictions were made. Revatīnandana: Prabhupāda, can I ask, what is the very last verse? Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: What is the very last verse in the twelfth Canto? I heard it once. The last verse. Yeah, in the twelfth Canto. I once, I think I read it in one of the books but I can't remember it, it is very nice. I remember. Something about this age. Prabhupāda: It is there, in the third fourth chapter. Revatīnandana: The very end? Prabhupāda: janma bhāvaṁ aniruddha . Here? sundanti devi . . . (indistinct) . . . the last verse is: Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by chanting his holy name one can become relieved from all sinful life." Revatīnandana: That's the last verse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: Well, Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Papworth: All your . . . (indistinct) . . . seem to be busy being born again, it is very wonderful to see it happening. Prabhupāda: Born again? Revatīnandana: And Christ said. "Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God". Prabhupāda: That means that in the kingdom of God there is life. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is not dead. Papworth: That's right. *Prabhupāda: Kingdom of God, the impersonalists they think it is void. No, it is not void, there is spiritual life that we also say, that we also say Bhagavad*-gītā . There is description of the spiritual world, how they are enjoying there. There is also aeroplane. Guest: Huh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: (laughs) Revatīnandana: He is. He wasn't quarrelling, he was observing that. He said that we appear to be very busy being born in that way. Prabhupāda: That means, that the Christian religion accepts this, that there is life after death. And that life can be in the kingdom of God. You associate with God personally, talk with him, this is possible. We also say like that. This is our unnatural life that we are accepting death, this is not our natural. Our natural life is there is no death. Papworth: Death has no dominion. Prabhupāda: No. In the spiritual kingdom there is no birth no death. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. (BG 15.6) Everything is described in the śastra , one has to take to it and become happy, that is all. Papworth: Well if I must say the deepened night has crept upon our talk I think we should . . . (indistinct) . . . a little rest for your sake. Prabhupāda: Yes, no we are not fatigued because in spiritual life there is no fatigueness. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Whereas in the material life there is, birth, death, fatigueness, thirsty, hunger so many nonsense. Devotees: (laughs) Papworth: I'm was not thinking of your spirit but of your body. Prabhupāda: No, we are spiritually conscious, we transcend the body. Revatīnandana: One thing I'm still thinking about, do you really think that if Prabhupāda flies from place to place to preach this that the way to see it is that he is creating smog? Papworth: It is one way of seeing it. Revatīnandana: I know, but do you think that is the proper way of seeing it? Vicitravīrya: Like Satish Kumar he was a Jain, right? And then he joined Gandhi's movement, Gandhi doesn't say that if there is a facility you don't use it, he travelled on trains and like this. Papworth: Trains are another matter. Devotees: (laughs) Papworth: Very dangerous. Prabhupāda: You have got all very different interpretation only. Revatīnandana: The point is that there is so many millions of people in the cities all over the world and they are completely lost and they have bad leaders. Prabhupāda: But we have no such philosophy that we cannot ride on an aeroplane or motorcar, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma . One has to travel all over the world to preach this cult, so how you will go? Papworth: Don't you find travelling in an aeroplane rather undignified? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the next dignified way? Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can suggest. Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can suggest. Papworth: Steamer? Prabhupāda: Yes I came first in the USA on boat, ship, oh it was so troublesome practically I was dying in the Atlantic. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) I become seasick, I was not eating at all. Papworth: On the ship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: Ah. Guest: It seems to me, that as soon as you step into an aeroplane you accept the whole modern industrial world, by that one simple action. This is the logical conclusion. Prabhupāda: We don't decry the industry we say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do whatever you like. Guest: Hm. Papworth: But don't you think the Luddites were all Kṛṣṇa conscious than the people who follow them and defeated them. Prabhupāda: Eh? Vicitravīrya: The Luddites they were a movement of angry. Papworth: And breaking up machines. Vicitravīrya: Yeah, acted industrially they actually broke up machines. Revatīnandana: They didn't, they lost didn't they? The point is that. Papworth: And now we are confronting a blank wall of thermonuclear destruction that is the price of their defeat. Revatīnandana: Yes therefore the situation is desperate situation. The world is in a desperate condition. *Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is that you remain your post, you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa that is our position. We don't say that you change your position, no. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu . . . you kindly lend your aural reception, that much we want. We don't say that you change your position. Instead of becoming industrial you become something else, no. That we don't. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious the pollution will be over, that's all . . . ceto darpaṇa mārjanam . Revatīnandana: You see, if you . . . if at this stage you say: "Oh, I won't use the aeroplane I don't hold with the television sets, I don't approve of . . . " Prabhupāda: No, why should you no? Revatīnandana: The newspaper. No I'm saying if they say that. If you say that, then you are saying all right nothing can be done. Prabhupāda: No no. Revatīnandana: We have to use these things now, you have to use these things right now. Papworth: He is doing something, refusing . . . Revatīnandana: You have to use it to stop the condition, later on you can decentralise. Papworth: You can join my international campaign I've started. I'm the members so far but our slogan is, "Buy a book today and help stamp out television." Well, one it's a start. Prabhupāda: No, why. Papworth: You join me . . . Prabhupāda: We don't condemn. Revatīnandana: We can immediately. Papworth: You could increase my numbers by 100%. Revatīnandana: We can immediately reach millions of people with a television set, with kīrtana and our philosophy. Prabhupāda: So why should we? Revatīnandana: Why shouldn't we use it? Guest: Because it is polluted by the great. Revatīnandana: No, our philosophy, I speak the same philosophy over the TV as I do in this room . . . Guest: Yes but . . . (indistinct) . . . isn't it? Revatīnandana: . . . with the same exact effect. Kṛṣṇa is of . . . Guest: I don't think you have understood . . . Pradyumna: It is ridiculous to try to ride a bicycle to stop you know a major devastation. Ridiculous . . . Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: The logic is ridiculous. To try to ride a bicycle. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that everything is created by God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Therefore everything is good because God is good everything he creates is good, but eh . . . Prabhupāda: The good must be used for the good. Haṁsadūta: It is misused eh, it must be used for God. Then it is misuse . . . now everything is misused just like you are claiming England someone is claiming India and other claiming America. If we agree that everything belongs to God then everything can be divided, eh, or can be distributed properly, in God consciousness. Papworth: Like the atomic bomb? Haṁsadūta: Yes, even atomic bombs. If necessary. Prabhupāda: Yeah. We shall use the atomic bomb for the demons. (laughter) Vicitravīrya: The atomic bomb existed five thousand years ago Prabhupāda can tell you. Prabhupāda: It is the use of atom, just like Hanumān. Hanumān was a great devotee of Lord Rāmacandra but he set fire to the kingdom of Rāvaṇa not for his purpose but for the cause of Rāmacandra. So we can use the atomic bomb for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām , he has got two businesses. To give protection to the devotees, faithful and to kill the demons. Guest: I can't understand, this seems to be a very mistaken attitude from the East and from India. Why the . . . Prabhupāda: Why you are again bringing India? We are talking generally. Guest: Yes I specifically do, do. Prabhupāda: Why? Guest: Applying philosophical and spiritual truths. Prabhupāda: Ooh! air means ooh. Guest: Well if, if you. Prabhupāda: I've not come here on behalf of India. Guest: There are a lot of movements from India, coming to the West. Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. That Christian movement for Jerusalem, that means it is Jerusalem. Why you have accepted? Why you have accepted? Guest: Why do I accept it? Prabhupāda: Yes, why you think Christians are Englishmen? Guest: I didn't say I did. Prabhupāda: Well, because it is produced in India therefore you should simply stick India? Guest: It isn't the question. No it isn't because it's in India, it's because at the present time philosophical truths are being applied. Prabhupāda: But India may be rejected. Guest: No not necessarily India. Prabhupāda: But necessarily we have rejected, we have rejected. Guest: It just happens to be . . . you're being over sensitive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: They happened to be from India. Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the government has no program for pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are preaching no intoxication. Now the government introducing intoxication. So what can be done? Now the government . . . Gandhi started prohibition, now the present government is introducing wines to the society and encouraging it, "yes you drink wine". Guest: You accept material goods and you don't accept. Prabhupāda: We don't want material. Guest: . . . moral . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . or anything, we want spiritual that is all. That is our philosophy. Revatīnandana: Everything used for sense gratification is material and everything used in the service of Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. (break) Revatīnandana: We've got spiritual tape recorders, spiritual lamps, spiritual buildings. Guest: That is verbal trickery. I don't think . . . Revatīnandana: No it is not verbal. Guest: It is. Revatīnandana: No it is your inability to perceive it. Prabhupāda: You don't understand that. Revatīnandana: It is your inability to perceive it. Prabhupāda: I have given that example, the iron rod, put it in the fire, it becomes warm then it becomes red hot and when it is red hot is it iron rod or not a fire? Tell me? Papworth: The irons. Prabhupāda: The iron rod you put into the fire it becomes warm, warm warmer then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot do you treat it as iron rod or fire? Guest: No redhot? Prabhupāda: Yes, so similarly by spiritual activities you become spiritualised, that is the point, that is the point. Guest: That is material, that's all. Prabhupāda: No no. Guest: That is material. Prabhupāda: Therefore you require training, training you cannot understand. I'm giving the example, the iron rod when it is put into the fire it becomes warmer warmer at last it becomes red hot. So when it is red hot you touch anywhere it will burn. That means it has got the quality of the fire by associating with the fire. Similarly if you associate with spiritual understanding then you become spiritualised. Anything associated with spiritual activities it becomes spiritualised. Just like we offer you the prasādam , what is the difference between prasādam and ordinary food? The same puri , same kachorī , or the same vegetable others are eating also but how this prasādam has become spiritualised? Because it is offered to the God. Similarly everything you do in connection with the service of the Lord that is spiritualised. Actually in the ultimate sense there is nothing as material because everything is from God so there cannot be anything material because God is spiritual. But when we forget the connection of God with anything, that is material . . . just like cloud in the sky, darkness actually in the sky there is no darkness but when there is cloud covering the sun it is called darkness, but when the cloud is not there, it is light. Sunlight. So when there is no forgetfulness of God, there is all spiritual. Schumacher: Well I think, the problem whether to use an aeroplane which I've never experienced as a great problem. Hm, shouldn't worry you. He has to go back to Central Africa. (laughter) Prabhupāda: He can go gradually. (laughs) Guest: It certainly seems a more dignified way than on the back of a camel. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's nice. Guest: We are suffering so many disadvantages through the . . . through the modern civilisation that I think a few advantages. Prabhupāda: No. Not for the modern civilisation but for forgetfulness of God that is our proposal. You can advance in modern civilisation but don't forget God, that is our point. Papworth: Well if you could create some Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the Arabs and Jews so that they would reopen the Suez Canal. Prabhupāda: That you can do. You are very much anxious, we leave the business to you. Papworth: Then I could go back by ship. (laughs) Revatīnandana: The point is that if we want the people to become happy to go back to a simpler life, live in a village and be happy there in a simple peaceful life we have to first make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. For that we will use everything. Papworth: In twenty years time they will have absolutely no choice. This country, your āśrama here it will be a first aid post with millions of people pouring out of London looking for food they cannot find, starving. Revatīnandana: That may be, but before they will do that they will fight to the death to get it from other countries. Papworth: To get what? Revatīnandana: They will fight to the death to get the food and land from other countries. They will never come out of the city peacefully unless they are God conscious. Papworth: They will when they are starving. Revatīnandana: No they will fight first there will be violence and there will be destruction. They are not so rational as you are, most people. Papworth: Well perhaps they are not as . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Revatīnandana: They are very attached, they are very attached. Vicitravīrya: (indistinct) . . . before that when . . . Prabhupāda: Sarve sukhino bhavantu : let everyone become happy that is our plan. Papworth: Well I think it was you who said it, men found the paradise, or make this world into a paradise they would at once because of some compelling evidence in their natures turn and destroy it. What have you to say to that? Revatīnandana: He said this psychologist once said that if man somehow turned this world into paradise, something in them would make them turn round and destroy it, what do you say to that? Prabhupāda: Who did say? Revatīnandana: He says the same man who creates the paradise something in them will make them turn around and destroy it, the same man who created will destroy it. Vicitravīrya: This was a western psychologist who said this. Revatīnandana: So he is asking about that. Prabhupāda: I create something good and destroy it? Revatīnandana: Yes, he says that this psychologist said that men will do that, so. He wants to know what you say? Prabhupāda: That is material, that is material. Just like father creates money and the son inherits and he destroys, we have seen it. A rich father's son he got money without any labour and destroyed. He doesn't like to remain a rich man he becomes a poor man. That is in the material world, everything is changing therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means changing. These are the functions of the material world, that is not spiritual world. Spiritual world everything is permanent. That is the conception of this material world, psychologist. Revatīnandana: What is that verse where Kṛṣṇa says on achieving this he thinks there is no higher gain? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the highest perfection, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. This is the Vedic version. Papworth: What is the translation? Prabhupāda: Hm? Papworth: What is the translation? Prabhupāda: If you become situated in God consciousness then you will cease to . . . that I have already explained, no hankering no lamentation. You will be satisfied, now I have got everything. And if one is situated in God consciousness, if there is greatest type of danger he is not agitated because he is confident that God is there if he likes he can kill me if he likes he can save me, I am prepared for everything. Dr. Schumacher: I think I must. I thank you and I excuse myself. Prabhupāda: Yes thank you very much. Dr. Schumacher: I have to go to the other side of London. Prabhupāda: No we don't detain you. So you have got your car, no? Vicitravīrya: Now we will take him back. Prabhupāda: All right take him. Thank you very much. So you are all thoughtful men just consider and try to convince people about the importance of this movement that is our request. Yes. *Devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- August 4, 1973, London (Conversation with Mr. John Papworth and Mr. E. F. Schumacher) Revatīnandana: So Mr. Papworth you know, and Mr. Schumacher will be up in a second. Prabhupāda: Yes, you came here before. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: How are you? Mr. Papworth: My invariable reply, sir, is that I am dying slowly. I trust you are well, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. Old man, (laughs) struggling. Spiritual consciousness is not dependent on material impediments. Mr. Papworth: I'm not hearing these beautiful words. (pause) Revatīnandana: He remarked that the spiritual consciousness is not impeded by material impediments—like the body. Mr. Papworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bathful of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it. Prabhupāda: What is your idea of meditation? (someone enters) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Sit over here. Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni. The Sanskrit word is muni . Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of "Crisis of Increasing Motorcars" in this paper. Actually, we are creating crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. *One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung, sat*-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye vilāsa (Gaurā Pahu). Sat-saṅga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa , we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu . . . there are two things: material and spiritual. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye . . . "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. *Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma*-bandha-phāṅsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motorcar Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading. Revatīnandana: Was it this one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (to guest) It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay. Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: It's called "The Economics of Permanence." Prabhupāda: Yes. "The Motorcar Crisis"? Revatīnandana: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location. Vicitravīrya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps. Prabhupāda: Heh? Vicitravīrya: It was in one of the magazines I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Here. Mr. Papworth: The one on Buddhist economics. Dr. Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence." Mr. Papworth: Oh. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (looking through magazine) "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article, "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit; another side, we make pollution. Dr. Schumacher: That's it. *Prabhupāda: This is the material . . . result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you . . . that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gītā . In the Bhagavad-gītā , we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mr. Papworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that? Revatīnandana: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking. *Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya , a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that, "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he become perfect. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it, but we say purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible. Mr. Papworth: It's possible to what? Prabhupāda: Purify. Mr. Papworth: Purify the pollution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Papworth: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). So everything should be done—that is called karma-yoga —in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized, bhakto 'si priyo 'si ( BG 4.3): "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go . . . we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it. Mr. Papworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it? *Prabhupāda: The means is that . . . our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana , chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we . . . we can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By . . . but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motorcar factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord," what their . . . what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say. Dr. Schumacher: I don't see the point. Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection. Dr. Schumacher: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange that, "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. But we don't demand anything that, "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So . . . from the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, everything will be purified. *Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). All problems will be solved. This is the beginning. Now, gradually, as people understand this philosophy, they will understand. They will understand. If they simply give us the chance. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Let them remain in their position. We don't disturb. We don't disturb. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Simply they will kindly give their aural reception what we are speaking. Mr. Papworth: Well, the diagnostic's not altogether clear to me how the chanting is going to affect the pollution. How do you see . . .? Prabhupāda: It is a purificatory process. Pollution means impure. So if you purify, then there is no more pollution. Just like infection. You have got some disease, infection. If you give some vaccine to purify the body, the infection is gone. It is like that. Revatīnandana: It seems that there's a difference in the usage of this word "pollution." Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: I think there's a difference in the way the word "pollution" is being used. Prabhupāda: Yes, whatever meaning you may do . . . Revatīnandana: So, for instance, if it is used to indicate air pollution . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . then how will the chanting will affect that? Prabhupāda: Yes, it will affect. Revatīnandana: He's asking how. Prabhupāda: How? That you do not know. You'll have to realize when you give us the chance. But if you give us the chance, there is no loss on your part. But you'll practically see how it is rectified, how it is . . . Vicitravīrya: Pollution is to some extent a result of materialistic activity? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vicitravīrya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is, these are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gītā . We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing that in Communist country. Haṁsadūta: Ah . . . Prabhupāda: You just explain to them. Haṁsadūta: They have a big youth festival there in East Berlin. Maybe you know? "The Festival of Youth." Mr. Papworth: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so*-called Communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect. Mr. Papworth: They were Communist youth who were surrounding? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Mr. Papworth: The people. Haṁsadūta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses. Mr. Papworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all Communist youth, are they? *Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about Communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because, huh, Communism, so*-called Communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism, because we recognize that the Supreme . . . Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy . . . Communist philosophy is, "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? So . . . but it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism. Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center. Mr. Papworth: Do you think that the Christian monasteries practiced this in the past, or perhaps even today? Haṁsadūta: Well, today, no one is practicing it. Otherwise why people are leaving the Church? No one is in the monastery, no one is in the church. They are abandoning it. Because there is no center. As soon as there is a center, it will carry weight. Just like a wheel. If there's a hub, if there's a hub, then it will carry weight. Mr. Papworth: I have not abandoned the Church. I have embraced it. Haṁsadūta: Anyway, our point is . . . we're speaking in general. In general, because the center, factually the center, God, is missing, somehow or other, He's missing, therefore people are also giving it up. They can't take it. Because it's not practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is practical. It's not a sentiment or a dry philosophy. It's a practical philosophy of life, absolute philosophy of life, how to do everything without any pollution, without any contamination. *Just like we are experiencing by our so*-called advancement that we have created so many modern facilities for comfort, but the result is, alongside, simultaneously, there's an equal disadvantage. Just like we create a motorcar, but we create air pollution. Or you create a highway, but you have to create snowplow to clear the highway. You have to create police. You have to create so many other things. Prabhupāda: And there is list of accidents, injuries. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here. His mother came here, along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said: "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure" as he had just been saying, "then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual . . ." Haṁsadūta: Vacuum? Revatīnandana: ". . . spiritual something at this time, spiritual lack at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet we have filled that lack, or rather our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that. Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause) Revatīnandana: How does the . . . how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit into your philosophy for, huh say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy? Dr. Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as . . . Revatīnandana: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on. Dr. Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: That's what I was saying, you see. Prabhupāda: When there is no food, so human life is more important than animal life. So the human life should be saved at the sacrifice of animal. That is another question. But where there is complete facilities to get very nice, nutritious food, why these poor animals should be killed? Dr. Schumacher: Sure. Revatīnandana: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that . . . Prabhupāda: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree. Dr. Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it? I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a simple question. Killing . . . do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill"? Dr. Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same times, you want to purify. How it is possible? *Dr. Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat*-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of treatment of animals is just, uh, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge. *Revatīnandana: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, then it can be changed. All of us are from meat*-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants, we've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life. *But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony*-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him . . . I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction. Mr. Papworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what? Revatīnandana: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said: "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology—no senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the *Vedas* , is a human birth. You're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not . . . an intelligent man who can sense that, "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's . . . *Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Chandragupta. So he was honorary prime minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat : "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. *So mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu . And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualification, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestation, treating all women as mother—treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; *and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principle? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says: Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected; it doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor . . . so this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore you expect. Mr. Papworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully, if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made is not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible—I don't say this to justify the killing of animals—but it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoebox, and then add two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it . . . it seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing. Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing? Mr. Papworth: Far more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Papworth: And young cows, calves, are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food—milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins—to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down. Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals? Revatīnandana: No, he's talking . . . he's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him . . . Haṁsadūta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop. Mr. Papworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then animals are free. They can go everywhere. Mr. Papworth: I think you are avoiding the point, you see. This is not . . . Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark, so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. Next stage of brute mentality . . . they're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not? Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not within the womb. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory. Dr. Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty . . . well, I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Dr. Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat*-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see—unless such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices . . . I think one should be a bit careful there. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all . . . all throughout history . . . Haṁsadūta: Therefore all throughout history . . . Dr. Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . you haven't . . . why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat . . . animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means . . . Prabhupāda: Pollution. Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting . . . just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction—air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed. Mr. Papworth: You think like this? Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's . . . there are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction. Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good . . . a good formula on this, and . . . Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy. Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat . . . Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say. Dr. Schumacher: . . . but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat . . . Prabhupāda: What is this? Dr. Schumacher: . . . so they let the Muslims kill the animals. *Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take . . . if the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal*-killer. Dr. Schumacher: Well, that is . . . Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat, if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat, if I eat the meat, I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic . . . there's a Vedic verse that explains it. Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course. Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking. In this way. Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution. Revatīnandana: This, this . . . Dr. Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue. Dr. Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it. Revatīnandana: Oh, it changes everything immediately. Dr. Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London . . . now, I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems. Haṁsadūta: Yes, let them come here. We will . . . Dr. Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming. Prabhupāda: Because there are restriction. Dr. Schumacher: That is not, that is not . . . that doesn't meet my point. My point is . . . Haṁsadūta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Kṛṣṇa can provide place for any number of His . . . Prabhupāda: Millions. Haṁsadūta: . . . devotees. Any number. Mr. Papworth: I found this the other day—and you'll forgive me making this point—but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest so we listen to what he has to say. Then answer him. Revatīnandana: But . . . just that this is interesting, that the solution is there . . . Mr. Papworth: But you haven't heard the problem yet. Revatīnandana: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand. Prabhupāda: But one thing . . . Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand? Prabhupāda: Mister, yes . . . I forgot your name. Mr. Papworth: John. Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world. Mr. Papworth: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure. All failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it. Dr. Schumacher: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory, but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories, but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathe . . . (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena , hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. *Mano*-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : how to become a brāhmaṇa , how to become a kṣatriya , how to become a vaiśya , how to become a śūdra , or how to remain less important than the śūdras . The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly . . . (break) (indistinct) . . . everything will be entwined with it. If you mix up, if there is no division, what is head what is leg then it is chaos and confusion. Revatīnandana: Just like for example the *Vedas* say that whatever unnecessary slaughter is going on there will always be a war going on. The society is constantly crying about war. One Vietnam War, the Second World War, the First World War and you go back all the way to the Greeks. It is war after war and what is the is always there? When they could be producing grains vegetables, fruits etc very nicely. They are instead producing animals for slaughter, by habit, by custom, that custom has gradually grown in this materialistic age. Eh. So . . . Prabhupāda: Nature will setup a reaction. Revatīnandana: The *Vedas* said this will happen. Immediately it is already the reaction is there, it is happening. Papworth: It seems to me we have already covered this ground. Revatīnandana: I don't. Papworth: In the sense that we were discussing whether vegetarian approach could be legitimately taken as a central point. Prabhupāda: No we are speaking of God consciousness, we do not speak on vegetarianism. No, we are this is . . . Papworth: Alright none killing. Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: None killing. Prabhupāda: It is one of the processes but our aim is God consciousness, not to become vegetarian. Papworth: But you see the one is means to the other. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But just try to understand. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . vegetarian simply . . . (indistinct) . . . live about. *Prabhupāda: Vegetarian.Just like a tiger, a tiger cannot be vegetarian. That is not possible, by nature it is non*-vegetarian. So I cannot ask a tiger, a dog, a jackal, to become vegetarian. But I can ask a human being who is not a tiger, a jackal or dog and he can take it, that is human consciousness. Just like all my students, they are coming from Europe and America. They were addicted to all these habits. Now, just see them, how they have given up? They do not drink tea even. Do not smoke even . . . They are all young boys and girls, how they have taken to it? And when they go to saṅkīrtan party, even the Americans they ask, "Are you Americans?" They are surprised, "how you have changed so much?" One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet, that these boys our boys they are coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So before this they would not care to see us, even come to the church, now how they are so much after God? They are mad after God. So there is a process to purify the whole society, so if we adopt that process then everything can be changed and in the process these four things are there. That no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Guest: Can I ask you what illicit sex means? Prabhupāda: Illicit sex is without marriage. In the human society there is marriage, in animal society there is no marriage. They can have sex life on the street. We cannot adopt the means of the animals. You are not expected to do the same thing as the animals do. That is humanity. Therefore actually if we are serious to purify the whole situation we have to adopt the standard method otherwise it will be futile. Dr. Schumacher: You see I don't contradict any of these things, but surely it is right to say that God or Krishna consciousness is the primary thing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: . . . but by fixing on just those four things. Prabhupāda: No not only four things. Dr. Schumacher: We are, we are introducing so many divisions into mankind. Revatīnandana: Yes, yes. Dr. Schumacher: The Christian is out because. Revatīnandana: Four classes are there. Dr. Schumacher: No, the Christian is out because Jesus drank wine. The Muslims are out because they eat meat. Others are out because they do not have the specific institution of marriage that we have. So surely we are substituting ephemeral things for the real thing. The real thing being God consciousness and are we not prepared to tolerate people who for instance drink wine? Revatīnandana: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Or even who gamble? Revatīnandana: Just. Dr. Schumacher: When these are not any more the central problems. I can't agree any kind of discipline . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is not central problem, that is proof of my students. They are coming from . . . you explain that Christian will be out but why they should be out? They were all Christians, how they are coming? Dr. Schumacher: Well Christianity is no longer acceptable teaching. Prabhupāda: No, they are Christians, they are Christians. How they have come? Dr. Schumacher: Well I don't know but . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know but you cannot say that the Christian will not come. Dr. Schumacher: No no they may come . . . Prabhupāda: It is the process of preaching, now they have come in dozens, if the preaching goes on they will come by thousands. We are preaching up intelligent class of men, doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu . . . Papworth: I quite accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . so intelligent class of men they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim. We do not make any bar, "Oh, you are Christian, you cannot come, you're Muslim you cannot come." We welcome the intelligent class of men. Dr. Schumacher: But if one eats prasadam . Prabhupāda: No, my point is that you say that Christians are out, that is not the point. Dr. Schumacher: No, I beg your pardon, I don't think Christians are out, I'd say Christianity . . . Prabhupāda: If they are intelligent person it doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or if, he will come. Dr. Schumacher: It is the four criteria I have stated then Jesus is unacceptable. Prabhupāda: No. Jesus is not unacceptable. We accept Jesus. Dr. Schumacher: To reform him? Prabhupāda: Yes, no we accept but we are simply saying that Jesus said, "Thou shalt not kill". Why the Christians are killing? That is our protest. Dr. Schumacher: Jesus was a meat eater and . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever Jesus may be, whatever he may be, he is Jesus Christ. You are not Jesus Christ, you have to obey his order, not his action. He is great, he can do anything, he is free to do anything, but you have to obey his order you haven't got to imitate his. You cannot imitate great personality. He might have done in circumstances, in different circumstances, that is his business, but if you are a real Christian you have to obey his order. Dr. Schumacher: Yes. Revatīnandana: He is in a semi desert region and you are not, that is the point. Simple as that. Prabhupāda: You cannot say that Jesus eat meat therefore we shall go on . . . (indistinct) . . . do you mean to say that Jesus said contradiction? He personally using eating meat and for others he says: "Thou shalt not kill." You mean to say, this is the philosophy of Jesus Christ? . . . contradictory. He is not contradiction it is our misunderstanding. Our duty should be, if one is really Christian strictly abide by the orders of Jesus Christ, that is our point . . . Revatīnandana: See, the śastras say they divide the human society, society into four groups. One group is God, second group is God's devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Not God, godly. Revatīnandana: No no but God is there the Supreme mode is there the devotees are there the innocent are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the demons are there who are envious of God and the devotees. See, the *Vedas* say you worship God with love and devotion, you make friendship with the devotees, you preach to the innocent who will hear and you avoid the demons. It doesn't matter if the demon is dressed in priests garb or he is dressed as Hitler. If he is a demon you recognise him by his qualities . . . Guest: Well . . . (indistinct) *Revatīnandana: His innocent qualities. There is a whole chapter in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: A demon does not believe in God. Defies God that is demon. Guest: I can't quite understand why consciousness can be transferred, can be communicated in debatable argument. You can try it, communicate consciousness, or assume that people have different consciousness. Prabhupāda: So what is your idea? To change the consciousness? Guest: You seem to be anxious to change the consciousness, or impose it. Prabhupāda: Everything is changed by debate and argument. Guest: I don't go there. Prabhupāda: Yes, why do you go to the Parliament? Guest: I don't go. Prabhupāda: You don't go but your father goes. Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: So that you will not discuss . . . (indistinct) . . . the . . . (indistinct) . . . one man. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, discussion, human reasoning's are there, philosophies are there, so you can establish the truth by discussion but if you are not after truth that is a different thing, that is a different thing. But if you are after truth, the truth must be established by bona*-fide discussion. Guest: I thought that the truth is, is, the truth of consciousness is that it is inside one, and it is alive and conscious. Not something that can be established with an objective truth. External to be. Prabhupāda: No, objective truth, truth is true. Just like God is truth, so we are not establishing God by discussion. God is there already we have to understand God by discussion, that's it. Truth is already there. Guest: We seem to be in a situation of hostility here which is totally unnecessary. Prabhupāda: No, why unnecessary? All preacher did it, eh? Lord Jesus Christ he preached and because people did not agree with him he was crucified. So discussion is always there, you cannot avoid it. Why he was crucified? What was his fault? Because people did not agree with Him. That's all. Papworth: But the central, the point that I think Doctor Schumacher was sharpening a bit was about the position of Christians in the terms of the four points, four rules of conduct that you enunciate, Jesus, the last message to those around him was take this cup of wine drink it in remembrance of me and ever since he died Christians week after week from generation to generation . . . Prabhupāda: Then how do you . . . Papworth: . . . to take the cup. Prabhupāda: Take his order? Commandment thou shall not kill. Does it mean that Jesus Christ was hypocrite? He was eating meat and advising not kill, do you think like that? Papworth: No well . . . Dr. Schumacher: Well the traditional interpretation of this both of the Jews and. Prabhupāda: That is not. Dr. Schumacher: Christians Prabhupāda: Tradition and . . . interpretation is different, but truth is truth. Dr. Schumacher: The traditional interpretation both of the Jews and Christians has always been that this refers to killing humans. Prabhupāda: That is for his convenience, he has invented but we have to take direct meaning. What does it mean kill? Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill," this is direct order. Dr. Schumacher: It is not ah . . . Prabhupāda: If you want to support in that way, interpretation, that is different thing. But we take the direct order. Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill" that should be taken directly, direct meaning, no interpretation. Why interpretation? When you can understand what is the meaning of killing, why you should interpretate at all? Everyone if you open the dictionary you can see the meaning, everyone knows what is the meaning of killing. Why you should interpretate at all? Interpretation is required when the meaning is not clear. Dr. Schumacher: Well, with respect interpretation is necessary, for instance, and was given this evening when I said: "Killing animals for protection" I was told that. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: That special? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Suppose a tiger is coming. Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . are the Eskimos killing animals because . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is . . . Dr. Schumacher: Different. So we are in the field of interpretation. Revatīnandana: The scriptures give all these dispensations. Dr. Schumacher: So we are in the field of interpretation? Revatīnandana: The scripture also gives dispensation. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The thing is that, "Thou shalt not kill". Suppose a tiger is coming here to attack. I shall kill it but I should not go to the forest to kill him. Dr. Schumacher: I accept all this, I accept all this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is the interpretation, it is not my business to go to the forest and kill him. Dr. Schumacher: That's right. Prabhupāda: When he comes to attack me, I must kill him. Why a tiger? Even a man comes to attack me I must kill him. That is another thing, but that means naturally I am not in favour of killing but if there is necessity, absolute necessity I must kill him, that is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: Well, I, this with great respect is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And therefore I can't sit here and say that all the Jews and all the Christians for thousands of years have all been wrong by interpreting the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" as referring to people. They have often enough transgressed that, so but the really worrying thing to me is while I accept that spiritual development requires certain disciplines and of course essential disciplines are some of those that have been named here, but surely we can agree that these are purely means to an end. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And that I do not really act as touchstone or something, sincerity or genuineness of the people, that one can choose quite a different set which would be perhaps in modern society even more irrelevant and it is particularly disturbing because we all know the great personalities who have done tremendous harm to mankind and spirituality . . . Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Schumacher: . . . who never had illicit sex, never gambled never intoxicate themselves and were very careless. So it is quite clear that these four things by themselves are as nothing. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Dr. Schumacher: This is the Christian teachings do not . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say, guṇa*-karma , quality and work, guṇa-karma vibh . . . suppose you have passed the law examination but you are not practising. Nobody will call you as a lawyer. So, when you are qualified to become a lawyer and practising, then you are a lawyer. Similarly, theoretical knowledge that these things will help but if I do not practice it then I am not qualified those things. But two things must be there, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . One must be qualified and at the same time practised in life then he is. Without practising simply theoretical knowledge will not do. These people, these students, they are practising they are not depending on the theoretical knowledge, they are practising. Dr. Schumacher: The practice, I am sure goes beyond the observance of these four precepts? Prabhupāda: Why? Unless you have accepted the precepts how you can practice? If you do not know, this is good, this is bad how you can practice to become good or bad? Guest: It's only practice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: It's only practice. Prabhupāda: Yes it must be practice. Guest: It's not the real experience. Prabhupāda: No, you must know what is what and practice it, that is called jñāna and vijñāna. Vijñāna means science or practical application, experiment that is science observation and experiment. Observation is theoretical and experiment is practical so when two combine then it is science. Papworth: I am intrigued that the four precepts make numerous references to truth or to love or to beauty and I wonder if you could not conceive it possible that people could follow these four precepts and still be living in ways which would deny attempts to prove this. Prabhupāda: Yes that is possible, therefore we say practice. Even we can accept one who is addicted to these four principles he can become also God conscious even accept that. Our point is that one must be God conscious either by following these precepts or not following these precepts, it doesn't matter. Dr. Schumacher: Oh alright, I am happy. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter, we want to see that he is God conscious because sometimes we see those who are addicted to these principles still he is not God conscious and one who is not addicted still he is God conscious, there is possibility. But these are the general, regulations. Just like Rabindranath Tagore, you know Rabindranath Tagore's name? A Bengali poet who. Dr. Schumacher: Rabindranath yes. Prabhupāda: Rabindranath, Tagore. Dr. Schumacher: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Yes, he never went to school but he was offered doctorate title from Oxford University, yes. So that does not mean everyone should not go to school and he will get the doctorate title. It is not general, specific, that is another thing, so we have to discuss the general principle. Specifically it is possible, but even one is addicted to all these principles he can be completely God conscious, that is possible. And even one is not addicted, he may, he can become a demon. So these are uncommon exceptional cases but generally this is the rules. *Dr. Schumacher: I'm sure you appreciate my difficulty when it comes to meat eating but ah, ninety*-nine out of the Christian saints were in fact not vegetarians and so from my point of view this is not the very rare exception like Rabindranath Tagore getting honorary degree and it is a very specific Indian tradition of which I am very much aware, Southeast Asian tradition to put this great emphasis on vegetarianism, but it does seem to me a little bit out of focus to condemn a Jesuit because he does not immediately take on that point. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Schumacher: This is really what gave rise to this conversation. Revatīnandana: He didn't click on any of the other points either. Dr. Schumacher: That I wouldn't know (laughs). Revatīnandana: The *Vedas* say that and this again, a general rule, a meat eating mind cannot understand spiritual life. This man. Prabhupāda: That is general. Revatīnandana: Couldn't understand the general principle, we are talking about changing the general society, you have a general society of meat eaters you want them to understand spiritual life. It is going to be a very difficult situation. Prabhupāda: The *Bhāgavatam* enunciation of religion is given there, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. (SB 1.2.6) Religious systems there are many religious systems chiefly Hinduism, Christianity, Mohammedinism or Buddhism, it doesn't matter. We don't say that you are Buddhist or you're Christian, you become a Hindu. We never say that. We do not say that, our policy is not proselytisation it is not our process we simply ask people that you become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Try to understand God and love him, that's all. But these regulative principles are favourable for your advancement, that is our mission. Dr. Schumacher: This I accept. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can a lover of God, you can become without following these regulative, we have no objection to it. We want to see that you are actually lover of God. Dr. Schumacher: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But then another thing is that I cannot pretend that I am lover of God my actions will be, ah proved. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , God consciousness means brahma-bhūta, brahma-jñāna , this is technical pure. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that one who has become God conscious, brahma-bhūta , Brahma not materially conscious, that is called brahma-bhūta , God conscious brahma-bhūta . *One who has become God conscious he does not lament or hanker, first two qualification. If somebody says: "I am God conscious," then I will have to see the symptoms whether he is God conscious. So these are the symptoms, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , he is jolly (coughs) and jollyness (coughs) means no hankering and no lamenting. So long one is materially conscious he has got two symptoms, he is lamenting for the loss and hankering for the gain. So God conscious person will be free from these two symptoms, na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , and he will observe all living entities on the equal level. So soon as I see that he is addicted to animal killing that means that he has not come to the position to see all living entities are the same level. That is also another symptom of God consciousness, if God is the original father that is expressed here: All living entities in any form, "I am the seed giving father", God is the father we are changing in different forms of body by a evolution, or something else, by karma . But I am the spirit soul, spark part and parcel of God, so you are. You may be in different dress, just like you are in black coat, I am in saffron cloth that does not mean you're not human being. The dress may be different, change. Similarly all living entities either he is a human being or a cat, or dog a cow they are all part and parcel of God. So one who is God conscious he cannot kill any other animal, he will not allow. He will never agree because he knows that the cat, or dog or a learned brāhmaṇa , their dress may be different but the living spark, the soul is the same. So he cannot give any pain to any living entity, that is one of the symptoms of being God conscious. Guest: If you say that fact, can I ask you about sacrifice because you allowed in fact, if a tiger came to your house or a man even came to your house. Prabhupāda: Hm. Guest: You would legitimately kill him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: What is the em . . . Prabhupāda: That is the already explained. Guest: Hm. Prabhupāda: . . . if to kill a tiger who is coming to attack you and to kill an innocent animal in the slaughter house, do you think it is the same thing? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest: But in terms of God consciousness it must be. Prabhupāda: But God consciousness does not mean that he is a grand fool. That he will not kill a tiger who is coming to attack him, he is not a fool. Guest: In religious thoughts . . . Prabhupāda: There is no religious thought. You have come to attack me, I must kill you first. Guest: Why? Prabhupāda: Why, because you are my enemy. Guest: But, eh according to the Christian teachings you should love your neighbour. Prabhupāda: But that is not our teaching that we shall become a grand fool, somebody is coming to attack me and kill me and I shall say: "Yes sir kill me, yeah you are very good". That is not our philosophy . . . if somebody. Papworth: Do you not accept . . . Prabhupāda: Generally I don't want to kill you but if you become my enemy, if you want to kill me, I must kill you first. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is means. Just like Arjuna. Guest: If God is in the form of all living. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be but on the material platform I may be God conscious you may not be God conscious, then why you should come to kill me? So it is not our philosophy that anyone comes to attack you, a tiger, we shall embrace them, "Yes sir, come on kill me." That is not our philosophy. If you are aggressor, if you are coming to attack me, so it is my first duty to kill you first. Guest: By what right? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: By what right? Prabhupāda: Because you are my enemy. Guest: That doesn't seem to. That creates a division. *Prabhupāda: This is useless argument, if enemy you must be killed. Must be killed. That is the whole philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . That as God conscious person Arjuna, you have read Bhagavad-gītā ? He was sensitively, "No, no why should I kill" but Kṛṣṇa said. Dr. Schumacher: I know that. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, Arjuna was hesitating. Dr. Schumacher: He was hesitating, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes hesitating but Kṛṣṇa said no. Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You must kill them because they are enemy, this is our philosophy. Papworth: Suppose you are mistaken? Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Supposing you are mistaken? Prabhupāda: Why you should suppose? You are mistaken. Papworth: People have been mistaken before. Prabhupāda: No if you are guided by the perfect person you cannot be mistaken. Dr. Schumacher: I think that in practice all good men are always agreed on this. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Schumacher: Em, but they aim at non*-killing but there are situations which. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Which cannot be avoided. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Em I'm not bothered about that, I am bothered about any teaching which really asserts that the brāhmaṇa and the cat are in effect on the same, the same level because it seems to me that . . . *Prabhupāda: This is higher level because one sees the same spiritual spark within the brāhmaṇa and within the dog. That is clear vision, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . (BG 5.18) You find out this verse. Yes. That paṇḍita I have already explained, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita also said: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54) He is paṇḍita he is learned. So what is that. Pradyumna: *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." Prabhupāda: Hm? What is the purport, is it there? Pradyumna: "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, or a cow, or an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge." "As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramātmā regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramātmā is present both in the outcaste and in the brāhmaṇa , although the body of a brāhmaṇa and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality. The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body, whereas the Paramātmā is present in each and every body." "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction." (pause) Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam . Revatīnandana: See what I'm noticing is that there is two ways to follow this logical progression. If a man is a vegetarian and he doesn't drink, he is not necessarily God conscious. He could be a demon, there are cases, we admit that, right. So. Prabhupāda: Generally he is demon. Revatīnandana: Yes. Generally. Prabhupāda: Not he could be. Revatīnandana: No, I'm saying he. Prabhupāda: Exceptionally he may not. Revatīnandana: No, if he doesn't do it, if he doesn't eat meat. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: If he doesn't, still he may be a demon, he won't necessarily be God conscious, right, but if he comes into the association of a God conscious person and God conscious knowledge. He'll be able to understand it very readily, in most cases. He has a very good chance of understanding it. If a man is a meat eater and a drinker etc., he cannot be accepted very, except in very rare case, like Jesus Christ being God conscious. And if he comes in contact with God consciousness he has a very difficult time to understand, right. Therefore what we are saying is that the business is to become God conscious, yeah. In almost every case a necessary, a necessary precondition that he accepts these four principles, then he can progress further. Fortunately he cannot understand (background cough) to do this very well in this age, most people cannot understand. That is why we say, just let us go there and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The purifying effect will overcome the reaction of the sinful life. He will become able to understand it but when he understands it he has to progress spiritually then these things become unimportant. We don't mind that the general society is engaged in these activities we were also engaged in them but simply that people should not oppose these principles and should allow us to do the kind of work that opens people's minds spiritually. Then they will put these things aside, then they can advance. Otherwise they will go on with the slaughter house and the war constantly and then have a very hard time to ever understand these things. This is our point. Prabhupāda: Now take a little prasādam . Mātājī: We have a. Prabhupāda: First of all. (break) Kṛṣṇa prasādam . Mātājī: We want to give you one of these. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. This one . . . (indistinct) Papworth: I can't understand why anyone should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you have got such nice beautiful substitute, why should you go to take meat? Dr. Schumacher: Oh I quite agree. Revatīnandana: Actually we distribute as much as possible, to as many people as possible. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . not lamenting and not critical. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And if you can keep that up then you will get away with many things. I mean this is our teaching, our Christian teaching is. Look, if you come into a family and they are meat eaters of course you can't take . . . (indistinct) . . . if you come into a family that are vegetarians. Prabhupāda: No we go to family of meat eaters, they give us vegetable we eat. Dr. Schumacher: Yes but our instructions are you see that we should not mind, we should not be precious but. Prabhupāda: No no. Dr. Schumacher: Because the essence of the matter if you're not craving you're not craving and your not . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . this is vegetarian, strictly . . . Lord Fenner*-Brockway. Papworth: We are concerned as a Christian and the way my religion is full of things saying, "Thou shalt not," but I am much more interested in, what I shall do? *Prabhupāda: Hm? You shall eat vegetables, "Thou shalt not kill," that's all, as we are doing. We are not dying because we do not eat meat, if there is substances such as nice foodstuff why should we kill a poor animals? This is common*-sense reasoning. If there is no food I cannot starve and die, then I must eat, that is another thing. When there is substitute in America and England, so nice things are there, we can prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations from cow's milk, besides that we have got another philosophy. Cow is one of the mothers. There are seven mothers, out of them cow is one. So the animal eaters at least they must save their mother cow. If animal eating is at all necessary they can eat other animals, just like in India. Those who are animal eaters they take goats, hogs but they never kill cows because they consider, Hindus especially, cow is mother and it is mother because we are drinking her milk. Guest: Why is it India's so violent? Prabhupāda: Because they are following the Vedic principles. Guest: So violent? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: Why is it that India's so violent? If it has lead such a vegetarian life. Prabhupāda: Who said that vegetarians should not be violent? Who said? Guest: Well. Prabhupāda: We have already explained that if there is enemy then you must be violent that is already explained . . . Revatīnandana: See there are so many, as I said these four things they are to encourage, they are to create an atmosphere for further progress. The further progress is when you prepare your food you understand it is Kṛṣṇa's food, so you offer it to Kṛṣṇa with devotion. *You sing the glories of Kṛṣṇa and you find out how to utilise your talents your occupational duties propensities for the satisfaction of the Lord. You raise your family to love Kṛṣṇa to chant the glories of Kṛṣṇa, to eat prasādam , you progress spiritually in a positive way because you have pulled out your anchor of sinful life, therefore you can move, and then when the anchor pulled you have a favourable breeze because from the scripture and the spiritual master you learn so many positive activities which comprised are what we call bhakti, bhakti*-yoga . Devotional way of becoming conscious of God, so the positive side is joyful process, but that joyfulness is allowed to grow when you pull up the anchor of sinful life. There is a story about a gentleman who . . . whose son was getting married to a girl in another village down the river and the custom was that the groom's entourage party would go to the village of the bride and be maintained there as guests by the parents of the bride and then the marriage would take place. So they went down one night and chartered a riverboat to take them down to the next village for the marriage and they proceeded to take their rest and in the morning when they awoke they were surprised to find that as the sun was rising they hadn't gone anywhere. So they complained to the boat keeper, "Why haven't you brought us anywhere?" He said: "Oh I am as surprised as you are, all night we have been rowing," it was a very dark night. And they looked and they hadn't moved because they have forgotten to pull the anchor. You can act very nicely but if. Just like I'm going to church, I'm giving money to the church, I'm giving to the charity so many things and yet I am not becoming ecstatically attached to the loving service of God. In fact I'm falling more and more into materialism, I'm loving Mammon more and more. So many Christian people are actually displaying that, for all their following of the rituals and the rights of the church they are still showing more and more attachment for Mammon because they have, they have a situation where they don't have to commit any kind of sinful activity and yet they are doing it. That is all right, but when they are told about it they resist, that is the demonic side. Guest: Can I ask you what is evil what behinds the evil? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He is asking how you see evil? What is evil? Prabhupāda: When there is no God consciousness that is evil. This is the sum and substance, if you're not God conscious then everything is evil for you. This may be different, but you are in evil or as you say in the Christian, Satan. If you're not under God then you are under Satan. And Satan is evil. So anyone who is not God conscious he is in evil. That's all. Guest: Is that a force outside the individual or is it a force within the individual? Prabhupāda: Why you are dragging Indian we are talking of general. Revatīnandana: No no, he says, is that a force inside the individual, evil, or outside the individual? Is evil something that impresses me from outside or is it from within? Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not God conscious he is overwhelmed with evil, inside and outside both. We have to purify therefore inside and outside both. Guest: Do you really think then that anybody cannot be God conscious? Prabhupāda: What? Guest: By the nature of this creation God, the father, can anyone not be God conscious? Prabhupāda: No everyone can be God conscious, not to become God conscious, that is artificial. That is Satanic. To become God conscious is natural. So people who are not God conscious means they are living unnatural life. That everyone must have a father, so if one says I do not know who is father, that is unnatural life. Natural life is he must know, similarly the original father is God. If he does not know that is unnatural life and as soon as one comes to his natural life then he is all right, he's perfect . . . anything more? Guest: No, hardly, thank you. Prabhupāda: Mr John? Papworth: When I was a small boy I was told always to leave something on my plate as a sign of politeness, but your food is so nice that I was forgetting the rules. Everyone: (laughs) Revatīnandana: Hm? Prabhupāda: Before coming, joining. Revatīnandana: Oh yeah, that was the first thing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Revatīnandana: That was the first thing. I didn't like the philosophy at all. Everyone: (laughs) Revatīnandana: But I couldn't stay away from the love feast on Sunday. See one thing you pointed out in your article, what was it called? The one about . . . ah . . . Dr. Schumacher: Christian responsibility? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . no the other one. Prabhupāda: (aside) some more . . . (indistinct) Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . I'm making the argument that are we sort of accepted and authorised for containing forces of modern industrial society and therefore it will come to a bad end. I don't think. I quite agree, I don't think that completes the register of the cardinal sins, or deadly sins rather, deadly sins. Of course we have seven of them, to distinguish. We . . . (indistinct) . . . only two. Revatīnandana: Yes how . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Then the animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex and gambling. If one is supporting these then we don't take him as disciple. All in one word, one who is not God conscious he is not a disciple. That is our general conclusion. It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that: "Those who are demons, āsuraṁ bhāva , atheist, they do not believe in God or surrender to God and these demon class men are divided into four classes. The first class, or the first division is miscreants, always committing sinful life, miscreants— duṣkṛtinaḥ. Duṣkṛtinaḥ means impious activities and the next, mūḍhāḥ —rascal, fool and the third narādhamāḥ . The lowest of the mankind and the fourth even though he is advanced, according to modern education, his actual knowledge has been taken away by the illusory energy." "These class of men they never become God conscious they never surrender to God. So our test is, if one is not God conscious, then he must be in either of these groups, from this logical conclusion. He may be outwardly very decent, but because he is not God conscious he does not understand what is the science of God, we do not take him as decent. We take him in these groups." Papworth: I'm not sure I have made my point. You see what I was going on to say, probably. Is that I believe that the dominant institutions of modern life are in the control of evil forces. They are not controlled by ordinary people who at least I feel are decent and that if people did control these forces I think that there would be a basis for spiritual progress in human affairs. Where at the moment there is none, now all you are saying in your philosophies seems to me to the great effect that it is possible in modern society for very very small but very powerful minority of people to manipulate millions and billions of people in ways which they cannot stop from doing. When you think last year £10,000,000 was spent on advertising cigarettes. Prabhupāda: Hm? Papworth: You say man mustn't smoke. How much is. Prabhupāda: Ten millions. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . advertising. Haṁsadūta: Pounds for advertising cigarettes. Smoking. Papworth: Smoking. Haṁsadūta: Ten million pounds was spent for just advertising. Prabhupāda: Yes that I see in your country, all big big boards—boarding, cigarette and wine advertisment. Papworth: The majority of people all through history have never been interested in verbal articulation about questing for God, this has always been a minority concern but common people have always been ready to follow positive lead, you are finding this in your work, but you come to this barrier where the majority who do not have the independence of mind. That those who have decided to follow you possess and . . . Prabhupāda: No they were always independent. Papworth: You're principles of that defect. Prabhupāda: It was not obligatory, I simply preached I never asked them that you become dependent on me. I simply invited them just like I have invited you. We are talking, you are independent so similarly I invited them. Dr. Schumacher: That's what he said, that's what he said. Prabhupāda: Yes, so we keep everyone's independence but we talk on philosophy, we give them prasāda , we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, God's holy name this is our process. So one becomes attracted he becomes intimately related. We don't touch anyones, neither God touches, God also does not interfere with your independence because God is fully independent and you are part and parcel of God so you have also got independence, the quality, but he is unlimitedly independent. *We are limitedly independent, so as in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that you surrender unto me I shall solve your all problems, I shall give you protection. Now he does not force him, although he is God, he can force him. "You must, I must force you," no no he doesn't do so. In another place Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru . . . eh? In the eighteenth chapter. Pradyumna: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru , he after instructing Bhagavad*-gītā he said that I have spoken to you everything, now whatever you like you can do. That means he is not touching his independence, "Whatever you like". So even God does not touch individual person's independence. So independence is always there. Pradyumna: "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do." Prabhupāda: That's it. "Do what you wish to do, not that I'm forcing you, it is up to you to accept this philosophy or not." So we are preaching entirely. These boys and girls they have joined voluntarily there was no bribe giving and I. What can I give them? I am sannyāsī I have no money to bribe them. (laughs) Or to give them some material facilities, what can I give them? You and all European and American what can I give you? So they have voluntarily joined, "Yes it is nice". Therefore we are confident that if this movement is pushed on just in this way wherever we shall go the intelligent class of men will join, there is no doubt about it. Revatīnandana: See once I heard Śrīla Prabhupāda say that the . . . actually, that we agree that the general mass of people they are being misled. They are not so much demonic but they are being misled. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: By general, by a nucleus of leaders in high positions who are very much demonic. Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). This is stated in the Bhāgavad Gi . . . *Bhāgavatam* , that a blind man is leading thousands of blind men. So what will be the result? The leader is blind and the followers are blind, so what will be the good result? Both will fall in the ditch. Andhā yathāndhair , one who is leader he must have eyes, he must have full knowledge, what is what, then it will be all right. So not the people are to be blamed but because the demoniac leaders are misleading them therefore the social condition is like that. So if the leaders of the society they will try to understand what is God, what is God consciousness, how people can be happy. Then the society can be changed immediately because the others they will follow the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate. (BG 3.21) Papworth: Are you saying that Kṛṣṇa conscious, people imbued with Krishna consciousness are somehow going to be victorious in the political dogfight? Prabhupāda: Well generally we are not interested in politics, but if need be we can take politics also because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is all pervading. It includes religion, philosophy, politics, sociology, science everything, everything. It is all pervading, God is everywhere it is not that God is only church, in the church or in the temple, God is everywhere. Guest: What you mean by, "Need be"? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: What you mean by, "If need be"? Prabhupāda: Need be, when we see that the politicians are simply making embezzlement we may take part in politics also. Guest: Isn't that now? Prabhupāda: Now we are not, we few people what can we do? Suppose if I am made the president of the United States, what can I do there? The whole atmosphere is polluted, it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. I cannot do anything, so why should I waste my time, to become elected as president. I know that I shall not be able to do anything, the whole atmosphere is polluted. Papworth: But are you worried about pollution? Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: You're not really worried about pollution, are you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . otherwise why are we pushing on this movement, if we are not worried? We are seeing that people are suffering on account of this pollution. So as they are God's sons, they are misled, so I'm also God's son, let me help my brothers. That is the necessity of this movement. Otherwise why am in old age—80 years old I'm travelling all over the world. I am feeling for them, that these poor people being misled, let me try to save them to my best capacity, that is all. Papworth: But in your travelling by must, your aeroplane is adding to the pollution, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes pollution without . . . Revatīnandana: He is using, this word is being used two different ways, your way of using pollution and his way, two different words. Vicitravīrya: He is talking about material pollution. Revatīnandana: He is talking about smog in the air, the air pollution . . . Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. Revatīnandana: You're talking generally . . . Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. That includes the greater pollution. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . New York, when you talked about pollution in . . . Prabhupāda: Our pollution means when one is not God conscious, he is polluted. Papworth: Ah! Prabhupāda: Our pollution. Papworth: I see. Prabhupāda: And your pollution includes that. Papworth: No I was using it in a technical sense. Prabhupāda: No, not technical sense, anyone who is not God conscious he is polluted, that's all. It doesn't matter what he is, that is our philosophy. Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: You see, just like devotees they like to live simply, in villages, they like to do it. They just grow some food, have a temple there, cows and they offer the food and the milk on the altar to the Lord and take that food and study the *Vedas* and become God conscious. Devotees like to live simply in villages that our, that's the Vedic culture, to live simply and God conscious life in the village. Prabhupāda: Now I see these village, so many vacant lands are there. So much that is not been utilised properly and people are being dragged in the city, London and they are struggling hard. The basic principle of civilisation is polluted, you see. Nobody is producing food everyone is producing knives and spoons, that's all. But knife and spoon will be required when there is food. But nobody is producing food, everyone is interested in factory, that we have also condemned this industry. Actually this modern industrialisation is spoiling the whole scheme of God. Why? They should be engaged in producing food and then they will have enough time for becoming God conscious. You have very nicely described all these industrial deficiencies, I have very much appreciated. Unnecessarily they are engaged to become śūdras and fourth class and tenth class men, due to this industry. So our Gandhi he tried to keep the men in the village, he had an organisation, village organisation. That was a very nice scheme but his disciples, Jawaharlal Nehru and company, he made all digged up. He wanted to become like America, overnight. So he changed the whole policy therefore India is in a confusion. Papworth: Who was it changed the policy? I think. Several: Nehru. Prabhupāda: Nehru, yes. He wanted that India should be America, overnight immediately. We have got our independence, so he deprecated anything Indian. Papworth: I seem to recall Gandhi's last message to Nehru was disband the Congress Party. Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Disband the Congress Party it was Gandhi's last message to Nehru. Prabhupāda: Disband the Congress Party? Papworth: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know, but they are sticking to Congress Party. Papworth: (laughs) Prabhupāda: His daughter is now prime minister, she is also in Congress Party. No, no it is not a question of Gandhi or Nehru, people should live natural life. God has given you land, God has given you cows, so if you simply keep one or two cows for each man and if you have got a little land your whole economic question is solved. There is no economic problem at all. Papworth: Is there enough land in India to give everybody several acres? Prabhupāda: If there is no India why not provide here in England? Why do you differentiate from India and England? That is not . . . lack of God consciousness. Papworth: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is lack of consciousness, why you are thinking that England is yours? It is God's. Why America is thinking that America is ours? The God consciousness means everything belongs to God and if you take total land of the whole earthly planet there is enough potential for producing food for ten times population as what it is now. God is so perfect, but we are making this ah, turmoil, "Oh you are Indian, you don't come here", or "You are British you don't come here." That is our creation, God has given enough land, enough land. In Africa, in Australia I have seen so much vacant land, lying without any utilisation but they have created this clique, "No no you can come here." Why? Lack of God consciousness. Dr. Schumacher: If it were just a matter of cultivated area per head of the population, the British would go to India.(laughter) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Schumacher: The amount of cultivated area per head of the population. Prabhupāda: If you make God center, then there is no difficulty British going to India or India coming to England. Revatīnandana: As I was reading. Have you noticed how the rains are stopping around the world? Ah? You've noticed? It's raining less and less in my state of California, here in England, in India, North Africa everywhere it is raining less. Dr. Schumacher: Thank goodness. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: How are you going to grow any foodstuffs when it stops raining? Prabhupāda: Yes the real key is in the hand of God, if it stops raining all your programme and philosophy will go to hell. And that is stated in the . . . predicted, that as we advance in this age there will be no more rain and there will be scarcity of food and on the other hand the government will levy heavy tax, people will become mad. Revatīnandana: So that. *Prabhupāda: Locate that in Bhagavat : anāvṛṣṭyā, anāvṛṣṭyā durbhikṣa*-kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9) That is already predicted that these things will happen. Devotee: Excuse me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is coming there will be cloud in the sky, there will be no rain simply lightning these are all predicted and gradually at the end of this age there will be no food grains. Papworth: No progress? Prabhupāda: Food grains. Others: Food grains. Guest: (indistinct) . . . that are grown. Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, fourth chapter. Guest: (indistinct) . . . grow. Prabhupāda: So the only solution is to make this propaganda that people may become God conscious. Now the simple method we are recommending to chant the holy name of God. We don't say that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you are Christian you have got God's name, so you chant that, where is the objection? If the Christian people are requested that you chant God's name. Papworth: They do! Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Hallelujah! Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotees: Hallelujah. Vicitravīrya: I think it means praise the Lord or something similar to that, it is in the Bible. It means to praise the Lord, praise God. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Papworth: Hallelujah. Pradyumna: It's like Jaya . Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: It's like Jaya . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also good but they must come to God, at least. Without coming to God simply theorisation, has no solution. People must come to God. Papworth: On that we are completely agreed. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to do that. You write in your papers don't be a rascal, come to God, then everything will be solved. Papworth: My difficulty is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I don't say that you write in our book, you write that Christian religion, Christian people who believe in God, so please chant the holy name of God in every house, every factory everywhere. Just see how it changes. Make this simple and we don't say that you, you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa we say that you chant the holy name of God. If you have got the holy name of God you chant it. Papworth: Well Kṛṣṇa is a very beautiful name. Prabhupāda: That's nice, but if you have got objection you can chant your beautiful name, what you have got. Papworth: But when I am writing in my journal, people are always saying to me, "This is all very well but you are not writing about spiritual matters." When I come here you are discussing spiritual matters but you don't do very much on practical matters. Prabhupāda: Eh? We are practical, we are very practical. We are providing so many men who are living in nice house, nice consciousness, nice food. What do you want more? Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can live with us and see. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But as soon as you will hear of the restriction you will go away. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: "There is no tea, Sir." (laughs) In the morning you will require tea we cannot supply . . . (aside) Hm. You have got that? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah! Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Let me have it. Pradyumna: . . . parjanyaḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah, that is another thing. Here it is stated, predicted: *The prajāḥ , the citizens will be exploited by the greedy government officers, it is clearly stated. Rājanyaiḥ, rājanyaiḥ means the government officers, prajā hi lubdhai, lubdhaiḥ —greed, greedy, lubdhaiḥ means greedy. Yes they take to politics for exploitation to become Minister and exploit, that's all. Everyone knows it . Prajā hi lubdhai rājanyair nirghṛṇair dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ , their profession is just like thieves and rogues, ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā . In this way when there will be too much exploitation, yāsyanti giri-kānanam. They will flee away from the . . . will go to the . . . take shelter in the hills and forests. Revatīnandana: Already the hippies are doing it. Fleeing from the cities to live like animals in the hills. I have just talked with them in North Devonshire. That's a desperate condition. Prabhupāda: Here it is said: In this age even for a little money, I need from your pocket. Even if you are own man, I can kill and take it, take the money. Even if you are my relative so because I need that money, little money what you have got, I will kill you. These are the symptoms given: In this age nobody will give protection to old father, here. And even own children, wife, simply for the sense gratification he will give up all connection. The description, if you come some time I will explain. Now, as gradually this age will make progress then people will lose interest in religion, in truthfulness, in cleanliness, in forgiveness, in mercifulness by the advancement of this age people will reduce their duration of life, bodily strength and memory. These are the predictions. You may be, whatever you may be, it doesn't matter, if you have got money, then you are respectable man, that's all. (laughs) And it is also mentioned, just this . . . anad anāḍhyatā eva asādhutve if you have no money, then you are dishonest, sādhutve dambha eva tu, if you are very proud then you become honest: Eh? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur, dāmpatye , husband wife relationship will go on only on liking. It is not that, "oh (s)he is my wife and my responsibility to maintain her and he is my husband it is my duty to serve him." These considerations will not be there, if I don't like, then I don't like, you go away, I go away. And man or woman the relationship will continue only on sex understanding, ratir . And a brāhmaṇa means having a sacred thread, that is all, he may not be any qualifications. And marriage will be simply by agreement. Hm. One will be considered very expert if he can maintain a small family. He will be considered as Lord of eh? Letchmore. Devotees: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: If he can simply maintain a small family, ah . . . dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba*-bharaṇaṁ yaśo 'rthe . And people will be religious simply for reputation, "no this man is religious" that's all. Revatīnandana: This is all five thousand years ago this was written down and it wasn't like that then. This is predictions. *Dr. Schumacher: It would be interesting to read this side*-by-side with the Book of Revelations. Revatīnandana: Yes, I read that 'Book of Revelations' recently and I can't make heads nor tails out of it. This is very clear. (laughs) Guest: . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: I think everyone can make it in his own way. *Prabhupāda: Now it is mentioned here also that: lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam , people will consider to become . . . he has become very beautiful by keeping long hair. Devotees: (laugh) *Prabhupāda: That is also . . . lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam , that we see practically. These are predictions, five thousand years these predictions were made. Revatīnandana: Prabhupāda, can I ask, what is the very last verse? Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: What is the very last verse in the twelfth Canto? I heard it once. The last verse. Yeah, in the twelfth Canto. I once, I think I read it in one of the books but I can't remember it, it is very nice. I remember. Something about this age. Prabhupāda: It is there, in the third fourth chapter. Revatīnandana: The very end? Prabhupāda: janma bhāvaṁ aniruddha . Here? sundanti devi . . . (indistinct) . . . the last verse is: Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by chanting his holy name one can become relieved from all sinful life." Revatīnandana: That's the last verse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: Well, Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Papworth: All your . . . (indistinct) . . . seem to be busy being born again, it is very wonderful to see it happening. Prabhupāda: Born again? Revatīnandana: And Christ said. "Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God". Prabhupāda: That means that in the kingdom of God there is life. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is not dead. Papworth: That's right. *Prabhupāda: Kingdom of God, the impersonalists they think it is void. No, it is not void, there is spiritual life that we also say, that we also say Bhagavad*-gītā . There is description of the spiritual world, how they are enjoying there. There is also aeroplane. Guest: Huh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: (laughs) Revatīnandana: He is. He wasn't quarrelling, he was observing that. He said that we appear to be very busy being born in that way. Prabhupāda: That means, that the Christian religion accepts this, that there is life after death. And that life can be in the kingdom of God. You associate with God personally, talk with him, this is possible. We also say like that. This is our unnatural life that we are accepting death, this is not our natural. Our natural life is there is no death. Papworth: Death has no dominion. Prabhupāda: No. In the spiritual kingdom there is no birth no death. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. (BG 15.6) Everything is described in the śastra , one has to take to it and become happy, that is all. Papworth: Well if I must say the deepened night has crept upon our talk I think we should . . . (indistinct) . . . a little rest for your sake. Prabhupāda: Yes, no we are not fatigued because in spiritual life there is no fatigueness. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Whereas in the material life there is, birth, death, fatigueness, thirsty, hunger so many nonsense. Devotees: (laughs) Papworth: I'm was not thinking of your spirit but of your body. Prabhupāda: No, we are spiritually conscious, we transcend the body. Revatīnandana: One thing I'm still thinking about, do you really think that if Prabhupāda flies from place to place to preach this that the way to see it is that he is creating smog? Papworth: It is one way of seeing it. Revatīnandana: I know, but do you think that is the proper way of seeing it? Vicitravīrya: Like Satish Kumar he was a Jain, right? And then he joined Gandhi's movement, Gandhi doesn't say that if there is a facility you don't use it, he travelled on trains and like this. Papworth: Trains are another matter. Devotees: (laughs) Papworth: Very dangerous. Prabhupāda: You have got all very different interpretation only. Revatīnandana: The point is that there is so many millions of people in the cities all over the world and they are completely lost and they have bad leaders. Prabhupāda: But we have no such philosophy that we cannot ride on an aeroplane or motorcar, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma . One has to travel all over the world to preach this cult, so how you will go? Papworth: Don't you find travelling in an aeroplane rather undignified? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the next dignified way? Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can suggest. Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can suggest. Papworth: Steamer? Prabhupāda: Yes I came first in the USA on boat, ship, oh it was so troublesome practically I was dying in the Atlantic. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) I become seasick, I was not eating at all. Papworth: On the ship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: Ah. Guest: It seems to me, that as soon as you step into an aeroplane you accept the whole modern industrial world, by that one simple action. This is the logical conclusion. Prabhupāda: We don't decry the industry we say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do whatever you like. Guest: Hm. Papworth: But don't you think the Luddites were all Kṛṣṇa conscious than the people who follow them and defeated them. Prabhupāda: Eh? Vicitravīrya: The Luddites they were a movement of angry. Papworth: And breaking up machines. Vicitravīrya: Yeah, acted industrially they actually broke up machines. Revatīnandana: They didn't, they lost didn't they? The point is that. Papworth: And now we are confronting a blank wall of thermonuclear destruction that is the price of their defeat. Revatīnandana: Yes therefore the situation is desperate situation. The world is in a desperate condition. *Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is that you remain your post, you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa that is our position. We don't say that you change your position, no. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu . . . you kindly lend your aural reception, that much we want. We don't say that you change your position. Instead of becoming industrial you become something else, no. That we don't. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious the pollution will be over, that's all . . . ceto darpaṇa mārjanam . Revatīnandana: You see, if you . . . if at this stage you say: "Oh, I won't use the aeroplane I don't hold with the television sets, I don't approve of . . . " Prabhupāda: No, why should you no? Revatīnandana: The newspaper. No I'm saying if they say that. If you say that, then you are saying all right nothing can be done. Prabhupāda: No no. Revatīnandana: We have to use these things now, you have to use these things right now. Papworth: He is doing something, refusing . . . Revatīnandana: You have to use it to stop the condition, later on you can decentralise. Papworth: You can join my international campaign I've started. I'm the members so far but our slogan is, "Buy a book today and help stamp out television." Well, one it's a start. Prabhupāda: No, why. Papworth: You join me . . . Prabhupāda: We don't condemn. Revatīnandana: We can immediately. Papworth: You could increase my numbers by 100%. Revatīnandana: We can immediately reach millions of people with a television set, with kīrtana and our philosophy. Prabhupāda: So why should we? Revatīnandana: Why shouldn't we use it? Guest: Because it is polluted by the great. Revatīnandana: No, our philosophy, I speak the same philosophy over the TV as I do in this room . . . Guest: Yes but . . . (indistinct) . . . isn't it? Revatīnandana: . . . with the same exact effect. Kṛṣṇa is of . . . Guest: I don't think you have understood . . . Pradyumna: It is ridiculous to try to ride a bicycle to stop you know a major devastation. Ridiculous . . . Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: The logic is ridiculous. To try to ride a bicycle. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that everything is created by God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Therefore everything is good because God is good everything he creates is good, but eh . . . Prabhupāda: The good must be used for the good. Haṁsadūta: It is misused eh, it must be used for God. Then it is misuse . . . now everything is misused just like you are claiming England someone is claiming India and other claiming America. If we agree that everything belongs to God then everything can be divided, eh, or can be distributed properly, in God consciousness. Papworth: Like the atomic bomb? Haṁsadūta: Yes, even atomic bombs. If necessary. Prabhupāda: Yeah. We shall use the atomic bomb for the demons. (laughter) Vicitravīrya: The atomic bomb existed five thousand years ago Prabhupāda can tell you. Prabhupāda: It is the use of atom, just like Hanumān. Hanumān was a great devotee of Lord Rāmacandra but he set fire to the kingdom of Rāvaṇa not for his purpose but for the cause of Rāmacandra. So we can use the atomic bomb for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām , he has got two businesses. To give protection to the devotees, faithful and to kill the demons. Guest: I can't understand, this seems to be a very mistaken attitude from the East and from India. Why the . . . Prabhupāda: Why you are again bringing India? We are talking generally. Guest: Yes I specifically do, do. Prabhupāda: Why? Guest: Applying philosophical and spiritual truths. Prabhupāda: Ooh! air means ooh. Guest: Well if, if you. Prabhupāda: I've not come here on behalf of India. Guest: There are a lot of movements from India, coming to the West. Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. That Christian movement for Jerusalem, that means it is Jerusalem. Why you have accepted? Why you have accepted? Guest: Why do I accept it? Prabhupāda: Yes, why you think Christians are Englishmen? Guest: I didn't say I did. Prabhupāda: Well, because it is produced in India therefore you should simply stick India? Guest: It isn't the question. No it isn't because it's in India, it's because at the present time philosophical truths are being applied. Prabhupāda: But India may be rejected. Guest: No not necessarily India. Prabhupāda: But necessarily we have rejected, we have rejected. Guest: It just happens to be . . . you're being over sensitive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: They happened to be from India. Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the government has no program for pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are preaching no intoxication. Now the government introducing intoxication. So what can be done? Now the government . . . Gandhi started prohibition, now the present government is introducing wines to the society and encouraging it, "yes you drink wine". Guest: You accept material goods and you don't accept. Prabhupāda: We don't want material. Guest: . . . moral . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . or anything, we want spiritual that is all. That is our philosophy. Revatīnandana: Everything used for sense gratification is material and everything used in the service of Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. (break) Revatīnandana: We've got spiritual tape recorders, spiritual lamps, spiritual buildings. Guest: That is verbal trickery. I don't think . . . Revatīnandana: No it is not verbal. Guest: It is. Revatīnandana: No it is your inability to perceive it. Prabhupāda: You don't understand that. Revatīnandana: It is your inability to perceive it. Prabhupāda: I have given that example, the iron rod, put it in the fire, it becomes warm then it becomes red hot and when it is red hot is it iron rod or not a fire? Tell me? Papworth: The irons. Prabhupāda: The iron rod you put into the fire it becomes warm, warm warmer then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot do you treat it as iron rod or fire? Guest: No redhot? Prabhupāda: Yes, so similarly by spiritual activities you become spiritualised, that is the point, that is the point. Guest: That is material, that's all. Prabhupāda: No no. Guest: That is material. Prabhupāda: Therefore you require training, training you cannot understand. I'm giving the example, the iron rod when it is put into the fire it becomes warmer warmer at last it becomes red hot. So when it is red hot you touch anywhere it will burn. That means it has got the quality of the fire by associating with the fire. Similarly if you associate with spiritual understanding then you become spiritualised. Anything associated with spiritual activities it becomes spiritualised. Just like we offer you the prasādam , what is the difference between prasādam and ordinary food? The same puri , same kachorī , or the same vegetable others are eating also but how this prasādam has become spiritualised? Because it is offered to the God. Similarly everything you do in connection with the service of the Lord that is spiritualised. Actually in the ultimate sense there is nothing as material because everything is from God so there cannot be anything material because God is spiritual. But when we forget the connection of God with anything, that is material . . . just like cloud in the sky, darkness actually in the sky there is no darkness but when there is cloud covering the sun it is called darkness, but when the cloud is not there, it is light. Sunlight. So when there is no forgetfulness of God, there is all spiritual. Schumacher: Well I think, the problem whether to use an aeroplane which I've never experienced as a great problem. Hm, shouldn't worry you. He has to go back to Central Africa. (laughter) Prabhupāda: He can go gradually. (laughs) Guest: It certainly seems a more dignified way than on the back of a camel. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's nice. Guest: We are suffering so many disadvantages through the . . . through the modern civilisation that I think a few advantages. Prabhupāda: No. Not for the modern civilisation but for forgetfulness of God that is our proposal. You can advance in modern civilisation but don't forget God, that is our point. Papworth: Well if you could create some Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the Arabs and Jews so that they would reopen the Suez Canal. Prabhupāda: That you can do. You are very much anxious, we leave the business to you. Papworth: Then I could go back by ship. (laughs) Revatīnandana: The point is that if we want the people to become happy to go back to a simpler life, live in a village and be happy there in a simple peaceful life we have to first make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. For that we will use everything. Papworth: In twenty years time they will have absolutely no choice. This country, your āśrama here it will be a first aid post with millions of people pouring out of London looking for food they cannot find, starving. Revatīnandana: That may be, but before they will do that they will fight to the death to get it from other countries. Papworth: To get what? Revatīnandana: They will fight to the death to get the food and land from other countries. They will never come out of the city peacefully unless they are God conscious. Papworth: They will when they are starving. Revatīnandana: No they will fight first there will be violence and there will be destruction. They are not so rational as you are, most people. Papworth: Well perhaps they are not as . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Revatīnandana: They are very attached, they are very attached. Vicitravīrya: (indistinct) . . . before that when . . . Prabhupāda: Sarve sukhino bhavantu : let everyone become happy that is our plan. Papworth: Well I think it was you who said it, men found the paradise, or make this world into a paradise they would at once because of some compelling evidence in their natures turn and destroy it. What have you to say to that? Revatīnandana: He said this psychologist once said that if man somehow turned this world into paradise, something in them would make them turn round and destroy it, what do you say to that? Prabhupāda: Who did say? Revatīnandana: He says the same man who creates the paradise something in them will make them turn around and destroy it, the same man who created will destroy it. Vicitravīrya: This was a western psychologist who said this. Revatīnandana: So he is asking about that. Prabhupāda: I create something good and destroy it? Revatīnandana: Yes, he says that this psychologist said that men will do that, so. He wants to know what you say? Prabhupāda: That is material, that is material. Just like father creates money and the son inherits and he destroys, we have seen it. A rich father's son he got money without any labour and destroyed. He doesn't like to remain a rich man he becomes a poor man. That is in the material world, everything is changing therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means changing. These are the functions of the material world, that is not spiritual world. Spiritual world everything is permanent. That is the conception of this material world, psychologist. Revatīnandana: What is that verse where Kṛṣṇa says on achieving this he thinks there is no higher gain? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the highest perfection, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. This is the Vedic version. Papworth: What is the translation? Prabhupāda: Hm? Papworth: What is the translation? Prabhupāda: If you become situated in God consciousness then you will cease to . . . that I have already explained, no hankering no lamentation. You will be satisfied, now I have got everything. And if one is situated in God consciousness, if there is greatest type of danger he is not agitated because he is confident that God is there if he likes he can kill me if he likes he can save me, I am prepared for everything. Dr. Schumacher: I think I must. I thank you and I excuse myself. Prabhupāda: Yes thank you very much. Dr. Schumacher: I have to go to the other side of London. Prabhupāda: No we don't detain you. So you have got your car, no? Vicitravīrya: Now we will take him back. Prabhupāda: All right take him. Thank you very much. So you are all thoughtful men just consider and try to convince people about the importance of this movement that is our request. Yes. *Devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- August 5, 1973, London (Conversation with Professor Lewcock from Cambridge University and Others) Revatīnandana: So this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. This is Professor Ronald Lewcock from Cambridge University, and I don't . . . (break) name. Professor Lewcock: (indistinct) . . . Sanzoni, from Ceylon. Prabhupāda: Ceylon. Professor Lewcock: Sri Lanka. Prabhupāda: So you are also teacher here? Professor Lewcock: No . . . (indistinct) . . . working with the . . . Prabhupāda: So you want chair? Professor Lewcock: No, I'm very happy, honestly. Thank you. Prabhupāda: And this girl? *Haṁsadūta: This girl is Vṛndā*-devī—she's Śivānanda's wife. Prabhupāda: Oh! She has come . . . Haṁsadūta: From Germany, from Hamburg. Prabhupāda: Ah. So they are not living together? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You don't like Śivānanda? (laughter) He is nice boy. He is a very good boy. *Vṛndā*-devī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. I think you are also initiated? *Vṛndā*-devī: I have been initiated since . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Śivānanda is very nice boy. You live peacefully and preach this cult. Heh? *Vṛndā*-devī: And pray to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Live husband and wife together. That's all. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so far I know, he is one of my best students—Śivānanda. Very sincere boy, very devoted. I think you are fortunate to have such devotee husband. You should not neglect. According to Vedic civilization, when there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it is not taken very seriously. Professor . . .? Professor Lewcock: Lewcock. Prabhupāda: Lewcar. Professor Lewcock: Lewcock. Prabhupāda: What is spelling? *Revatīnandana: L*-e-w-c-o-c-k. Prabhupāda: (aside) So you want to close this? So you have known something of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? Professor Lewcock: Yes, I have indeed. Prabhupāda: Which book you have read? *Professor Lewcock: The Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: As It Is . Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted as preliminary study for understanding God. What is your opinion? Professor Lewcock: True. Prabhupāda: What is your opinion? Professor Lewcock: Oh, I am quite sure that it is a remarkable book full of many truths. May I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: As I understand it, the, one of the beliefs is that the senses mislead human beings, and that . . . is that incorrect? Revatīnandana: (explaining the question) The senses mislead human beings. That is . . . one of the beliefs of the *Gītā* , he understands, is that the senses mislead human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: And that in order to find God one has to objurgate the senses. Prabhupāda: No. One has to purify. Professor Lewcock: Ah. Prabhupāda: Because just like in my life I have never smoked. I never. So . . . I am giving an example. And somebody smokes. So smoking is not necessary, but somebody smokes—somebody does not. How it is? It is due to association. If I mix with smokers' association, then gradually I learn how to smoke. Similarly, if I mix with devotees' association, then I become gradually devotee. Professor Lewcock: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: So the sense is the same, but due to association it becomes polluted. So again by association it can be purified. But you cannot stop the senses. That is not the prohibition. Senses will remain, but for understanding what is God, we have to purify the senses. Professor Lewcock: Mrs. Sanzoni is an artist, and I am an architect by training, and so we both of us work with the senses, and we deal with the sense of vision. Do you consider that that is a handicap in any way, that the concentration that we have to put into our vision, into the study of responses to vision, sensual responses to vision and color, can be a handicap to . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: The question is that both Professor Lewcock and Mrs. Sanzoni—he is an architect . . . Prabhupāda: Mrs. Sanzoni . . . she is . . .? Revatīnandana: She is an artist. Prabhupāda: Artist. Revatīnandana: So they both have to utilize their senses, their eyes, etc., for their work all the time. Is that a handicap for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: No. That also can be puri . . . just like Mrs. Sanjiva is an artist, so she can paint Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The same art, artistic sense—just like all these pictures, they have been done by my students. Yes. All these pictures, any pictures we have got. So they are not accustomed to do this. They were painting some hippy ideas, some bamboos, like that. *Later on, when they are instructed that, "You paint this idea," they painted very nice. People are astonished that how European, American boys, they have painted such nice picture. So that is the process of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means: *The bhakti , devotional . . . bhakti*-yoga means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ —one has to first of all forget that he is such and such, such and such: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Ceylonese," "I am German." No. I am pure soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . When one is situated in that spiritual platform, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How to understand that I am spirit soul? People generally, they are in the bodily concept of life. Just like you say that Mrs. Such*-and-such, he's Ceylonese. "Ceylonese" means this body. You are Englishman means this body. So just like she has got this white dress, you have got this black-colored dress, so this is not very serious consideration. *Similarly, this body has no serious consideration. Unfortunately, at the modern education the body is giving more consideration. And they are fighting—"I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am Ceylonese," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am . . ." So for God*-realization one has to first of all sacrifice this bodily concept of life. Professor Lewcock: It is really that question of sacrifice that I was interested in. To what extent is it necessary to sacrifice the senses to find spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to understand really what you are. If you are wrongly thinking that you are coat—so what extent? Unless you forget that you are not coat—up to that extent. Not that fifty percent I have now understood. No. You have to forget that . . . actually you are not coat, so you have to forget it—to that extent. Because I am not actually this coat, so why should I consider that I am this coat and this shirt? This is covering of my body. So I have got my spiritual body, and mind, intelligence, ego is the subtle covering, and earth, water, air, fire, sky, the gross body. That is gross . . . two coverings. So when one dies, that means the outward gross covering is given up, but the soul is within the subtle covering—mind, intelligence. Therefore according to the mind's situation, the mind, intelligence carries the soul to another gross body. That is called transmigration of the soul. Professor Lewcock: But this occupation, preoccupation with the sensory things, is not in itself something which is going to stop the advancement of the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you become too much engrossed with the occupation of the senses, that is material state. Professor Lewcock: Can that withhold advancement, can prevent advancement? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) Can that kind of material use of the senses, can it be an impediment to advancement, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. Therefore we have to purify. Just like this hearing: if you hear something material activities, then you get one kind of information. Similarly, if you hear about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is another information. The senses used for the purpose, you get different types of knowledge. So in order to receive spiritual knowledge we have to stop the material activities and turn our activity to the spiritual side; then gradually we will understand. Professor Lewcock: To what extent does bhakti embrace only love of Kṛṣṇa? To what extent does it embrace love of other human beings, of other people living on the material state? Prabhupāda: If you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love human being very perfectly. But you are talking of human being, but why you are not talking of other beings? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: The living entities, they are not only limited with the human beings. The living entities, there are forms—8,400,000. Out of that, human being is about 400,000. The major portion of the living entities, there are 8,000,000's, 8,000,000's. But because we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore we rejecting this 8,000,000's and taking consideration only 400,000. This is due to lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he will not take to the 400,000. He will take 8,400,000, because all living entities are part and parcel of God. Just like you are, English man, she is Ceylonese, she is German, but we are all human beings. Similarly, there may be living entities in different dress—somebody as tree, somebody as fish, somebody as cat, somebody as dog, somebody as king, somebody as demigod, somebody as human being—but all of them are living entities in different dresses only. So if you are eager to do something well to the living entities, why you should limit yourself to the human being? That is my first question. Professor Lewcock: Yes. I agree with that. I certainly agree. But does bhakti embrace the love of . . . *Prabhupāda: All living entities. Bhakti embraces all living entities. That is the advantage of bhakti*-yoga . His vision is not imperfect. Therefore this question about human being, why you are interested with the human being only? That is my question. Why not other living entities, other living beings? Why? This is imperfect knowledge. Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Limited. Imperfect knowledge. And because you have got imperfect knowledge, therefore there is confusion. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one has to accept all living entities, because all living entities are part and parcel of God. So if you want to do harm to a vegetable, you have to consider. But because they have got imperfect knowledge, they are taking consideration of a few living entities, limited, within his circle, and others are neglected and they are ill*-treated. And therefore they are accumulating sinful life, and therefore they are suffering. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Do you have a concept of sin as such? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are prohibiting four sinful pillars—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. These are sinful life. Yes. Professor Lewcock: I see. And suffering is a sin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become . . . because just like if you break law, then you are punished. Even if you eat a little more than your capacity, immediately there is indigestion, diarrhea. So you cannot break the law, strict laws of material nature. If you break, that is sinful and you will be punished. This is sinful and pious. If you go exactly to the laws of nature, then it is pious. If you break, then you are sinful. This is not difficult to understand. Professor Lewcock: No. Not at all. But to what extent would doubt be regarded as a sin, or an element in sin? . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (explaining) What is doubt, he wants to know. Prabhupāda: Doubt is good, provided if you make progress. But if you stick to your own principle, and doubt there is, that is not good. When there is doubt, then you go to a person who can mitigate your doubt and explain. Yes. But if you stick to your own understanding, tradition, then doubt is not very beneficial. It sets you back. You cannot make progress. So as soon as there is doubt, you go to a person who can explain about your doubt. That is the Vedic injunction. These are the Vedic instruction. Doubt is good; it is the sign of making progress. But if you stick to your original idea, then doubt is setback: "Why I shall accept this? I have got my own tradition. I have got my own religion. I have got my own faith." Then he is doomed. Doubt is very good if you make progress, but if you stick to your own principle, then it is degraded. *Vṛndā*-devī: May I ask something? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Vṛndā*-devī: When you going off somewhere. Because you have doubts, how do you know you can trust them? Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are in need of a medical practitioner. How do you go to your medical practitioner? How do you go? Suppose you are diseased; you have to take advice of a physician. How do you go to your physician? *Vṛndā*-devī: Well, we have to trust someone . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? What she says? Haṁsadūta: She says you have to trust someone. *Prabhupāda: Just see. You have to trust somebody. You have to see the circumstances that, "Here is a physician. He is treating some men, and there are so many patients, and he has got the medical degree." That's all. Otherwise, how you can understand? Yet if you see one man, Dr. Such*-and-such, medical practitioner, and actually you see that some patients are there and he is giving medicine, and you can enquire also whether they are being cured—so these are the external features. With this you have to select. But the injunction is when you are diseased, you must go to a physician to consult. Similarly, when there is doubt you must go to a guru . Now who is a guru , the definition is there. Just like who is a medical practitioner, the definition is there. The medical practitioner must be a passed medical man; *he has passed in his medical examination—that is his qualification—and he is actually working in some hospital. Then you see, "Yes. Here is a medical practitioner." Similarly, the Vedic injunction is—to clear your doubts you must go to a guru . Who is a guru ? Brahma*-niṣṭham : he is fully convinced in the Absolute Truth. That's all. Or one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is guru . So you have to begin that "Here is a man; he is talking only of Kṛṣṇa consciousness," then he may be accepted. *There may be pseudo, but that is your fortune. Just like you have to go to a physician, but if the man is a pseudo, fraud, that is your misfortune. But God is in everyone's heart. He leads. If you are actually sincere and serious, He will take you to the real guru . That is God's grace. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-krpaya pāya (CC Madhya 19.151). So Kṛṣṇa is also working. He is seeing how much you are sincere. If you are serious, then He will lead you: "Here is a person . . . (indistinct) . . ." Mrs. Sanzoni: May I ask what is a good exercise against cynicism? Even though sometimes, when people have been betrayed by others, they . . . (indistinct) . . . become cynical and untrustworthy. What is a good exercise? Prabhupāda: Good exercise? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) What is a good exercise against cynicism? If you have been cheated by others, you may become cynical. And what is some remedy for cynicism? Prabhupāda: I am not expert in that science. I am sorry, I cannot give you advice. I am not cynicism. I have got business with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Lewcock: But I think you have already answered that, in a sense, by saying that anybody who has doubts has to find a guru to answer those doubts. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is clear. But I am not expert in cynicism. (chuckles) That is . . . the doubt is already cleared. You cannot make any man as dictionary: whatever you like, you question, and he'll answer. That is not possible. One has got his own line. So if you ask question on that line, that is bona fide. Professor Lewcock: Is it true, master, that when one met a guru who was right for one, one would know it in one's heart? Like a sign, a sign of certainty that one has found a guru who was giving advice that is right, a teaching that is right for that person? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all. Guru means tad viddhi praṇipātena . You have to find out a guru where you can surrender. That is the first business— praṇipātena. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to find out somebody where you can surrender. That is the first business. So then, paripraśa : asking questions. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena. (aside) Find out that verse. But our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice that it is remedy for all kinds of doubt. Now your question . . . what is the actual question? Revatīnandana: "What is the remedy for cynicism, when one becomes cynical?" Prabhupāda: We shall say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not bluff; *that is fact. Bhavauṣadhi . There are many diseases in this material world, but this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is suggested by Parīkṣit Mahārāja, nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhi (SB 10.1.4): the panacea for all kinds of diseases. Now if the question is made in full surrender, then it will be effective. And if you ask some question and think, "If I like, I shall accept it; otherwise I'll reject," so that personal question has no value. Therefore the first business is whether you are questioning after full surrender, "Yes, whatever answer will come from him, I shall accept." Then it is genuine question. And if you want to amend and verify it for your understanding, that is not genuine question. Is it? Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So therefore the first thing is praṇipāta. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. You should question to a person where you have fully surrendered: "Yes. Whatever answer you will give, I will accept." Then that question is bona fide. If you again put it in your own test, "Oh, this is not to my liking," then why did you question it? That is un–bona fide questioning. Therefore the question*-answer is allowed only between disciple and guru , not with outsiders. That is the actual position. Because outsider, they will question and waste time. They will not accept the answer. But the process is you shall question to a person where you have surrendered. That is the first. *Samit*-pāṇi śrotrīyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam (MU 1.2.12). Samit-pāṇi means folded hands, yes: "Sir, I have got this doubt." This is surrender. "If you kindly answer it." And that also should be there. Praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34)—surrender and sevayā . So there is some process. But if we simply question whimsically and take some answer and do not follow—simply waste of my time, your time and everything, that's all. You should be prepared to take the answer and take it seriously, then you should question; otherwise don't waste your time. That is the process. *So our answer is bhavauṣadhi . By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , everything— ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12)—everything becomes clear. That is the cha . . . this is the medicine, that a clear's all doubts: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ (CC Antya 20.12). And soon as all doubts are cleared, the blazing fire of material existence is extinguished. Just like the physician: unless you know that, "Whatever medicine the physician will give, I will accept," then what is the use of going there? When the physician prescribes something, and if you say: "No, I don't like this," (laughter) then what is the use of going there? Therefore the first is that, "I am going to this physician. Whatever prescription he will give, I will accept." Then you can go to the physician. The material life is cynicism. Everyone is cynical. *Anyone who is under the condition of this material nature is cynical, but he has forgotten his real identity. Just like a mad, crazy fellow who forgets what he is. He is even asking, rebuking his father, "What, you nonsense, who are you? Why you are standing here?" He forgets even the father. Piśācī —ghostly*-haunted, as one forgets the identity. So every one of us who has forget the identity and is thinking that I am this body is cynical, more or less. So anyone who is identifying with this body is cynical. So this man or that man or . . . there is no question of this man or that—everyone. Therefore the prescription is given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be gradually cleared. *So you can take this medicine and try it. (to lady) You are asking for your case or for somebody else? So anyone can take. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). What is that? Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34)? Pradyumna: *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So these are the condition—submissive; not to examine him. Therefore everywhere you go, just like if you go to a physician you must go there submissive, not on certain conditions. (pause) *In the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find all the answers. Here is the process how one should approach. So first thing is submissive. Professor Lewcock: But, master, you said a little earlier that doubts were good things, because they . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good thing. A good thing. Just like doubt whether there is some medicine or not. But when the medicine is given, if you accept it, then it is good. If you don't accept it, then you have wasted your time. Professor Lewcock: Yes. So the doubts are a way of communicating, of creating communication between media . . . Prabhupāda: It is a via media—for progress or regress. (pause) ' Lady Guest: Can I ask a question? . . . (indistinct) . . . I couldn't really understand the answer. When God creates something, you're teaching that He created these two energies, the spiritual energy and the material energy, and that in the material energy there is illusion, also imperfect. I can't really understand that, because when you say it's imperfect, but how can something imperfect be created . . . (indistinct) . . . illusion? Haṁsadūta: (explaining) How can God create something which is imperfect? Lady Guest: It's not criticism; it's . . . Haṁsadūta: We're saying the material world is imperfect, material energy, inferior energy, spiritual energy. So how do we understand that it is imperfect? Prabhupāda: It is not imperfect, but it is imperfect for my understanding. The creation is not imperfect. Just like the sun is always shining, but there is a cloud. The cloud is created under some perfect process. Is it not? Lady Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the cloud is imperfect process for me, because I cannot see the sun. Lady Guest: Our vision is imperfect . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is creating disturbances for my understanding. I am already imperfect, and it is creating disturbance, but the process of creating the cloud is not imperfect. There is a perfect process. So this is the position. So material means when we become imperfect to understand God, that is material. Some impediments comes before me—that is called māyā —which makes me imperfect to understand God. And that is material. Actually, the cloud is created by sun, by the sunshine, so it cannot be imperfect. But it has created an imperfect position for me to see the sun. Therefore material world is called imperfect. Otherwise it is not imperfect. For me it is imperfect—imperfect in the sense that there is hindrance to understand God. Just like due to my this material concept of life—"I am this body"—I am imperfect to understand my soul. But the creation of the body is not imperfect. There is perfect physiology, anatomy, how the bloods are circulating, how food is being transformed into blood, how they are going to the heart, going to the, by the head—that is a perfect creation. But although it is perfect, on account of my misfortune this is checking my understanding of the soul. Is it clear now? Lady Guest: No, I understood what you said, but then my vision or my understanding is imperfect, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to take lesson from the perfect. That is the advice. Go to guru. Lady Guest: Yes, but my question was how can something imperfect be there? Is it because you are teaching that we are very small parts, so we can't understand what is greater than we? Is that the imperfectness? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) How can anything imperfect be there? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: How can we be imperfect, even in our vision? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is called illusion. Lady Guest: But I don't believe we are imperfect. Prabhupāda: Nothing is imperfect; (laughter) therefore it is called illusion. Exact word is used: māyā. Yatāh bhāsa tattāh tamah . Just like we sometimes see the sun is in opposite side. Just like—what is now? The sun is this side? Eh? Haṁsadūta: The sun is now on this side, yes. Prabhupāda: The sun's reflection is on some mirror there, and the reflection is coming here. So I take the sunshine is coming from there. This is the idea of illusion. The sun is there—in my back side. The sunshine should have come from that side, but the sunshine is reflected in some mirror this side, and the mirror reflection is here: I am thinking the sunshine is coming from this side. This is the illusion. The fact is the sunshine is come from there, but I am thinking coming from this side. This is illusion. Or the reflection is . . . actually it is dark night, but reflection is coming, I am thinking it is light. There are so many. Sometimes we have seen that in motorcar at night, we see that in the sky there is a city, all lights. You have not that experience? Haṁsadūta: Another good example is when you said that when sometimes the clouds move over the moon, it looks like the moon is moving. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Actually it doesn't. Prabhupāda: It is not moving. Yes, there are so many. So the moon is perfect, the cloud is perfect, the movement is perfect, everything is perfect—but still I am in illusion: you see that the moon is moving. So therefore it requires little knowledge; then you become perfect. Therefore you have to go to a person who has got this knowledge. Then you will become perfect. Professor Lewcock: May I ask another question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: Do you believe that it is possible to come to spiritual advancement rather than through the senses? In other words, that . . . Prabhupāda: No, I said purified senses. Professor Lewcock: You can. Through the past senses. Prabhupāda: Purified. Professor Lewcock: Purified? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our process is to purify the senses: for right understanding. Professor Lewcock: Yes. I am thinking particularly, though, of a great painting or a great piece of music. Would you feel that there is a spiritual message in something which moves one very profoundly? Prabhupāda: Everything is spiritual, but by illusion we are dividing, "This is material; this is spiritual." Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything can be spiritualized by advancement of knowledge. Music can be spiritualized. Painting can be spiritualized. Everything can be spiritualized. And ultimate issue, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual. But by illusion, because I am forgetting the spiritual relationship, therefore I am making this distinction "material" and "spiritual." So as soon as they become completely realized on a higher platform, there is nothing as material. How there can be material? Because everything is emanation from the Supreme Spirit. Just like sunshine from the sun is heat and light. How it can be otherwise? But sometimes, by other conditions we feel it is cold. Just like the season changing, the atmosphere is changing. The sun is the same. The sunshine is the same, but by other condition, which is also created by the sun, sometimes we are feeling cold, sometimes we are feeling very hot. Or electricity—the same electricity working in the refrigerator and the heater, but the original nature of electricity is warm. How it is creating refrigerator cold? Under certain condition. So this condition is illusion. This condition does not remain—it comes and goes. So when we come to the perfect knowledge, then we can see that these conditions are illusion; really everything is spiritual. That is real knowledge. Professor Lewcock: So following that argument, all material things are . . . Prabhupāda: Illusion. Illusion. Professor Lewcock: Therefore they are all spiritual, ultimately. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ultimately there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual. Just like some foodstuff we are offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual, so how He is accepting material things? The same foodstuff eaten by somebody else, we say it is material, and the same foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa, we are offering prasādam . How it becomes prasādam ? *The laddu —what is the difference? The same thing, but there is difference. So when everything is in touch— nirbandha*-kṛṣṇa-sambhandhe —everything in touch with Kṛṣṇa, it becomes spiritualized. Generally we give this example—a iron rod put into the fire, it becomes warmer, warmer, then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch anywhere, it will burn. So by spiritual association everything becomes spiritualized. Yes. That is wanted. Professor Lewcock: I have another question. What is your view of other religions? Just to take a simple example: Christianity. Prabhupāda: No, our point of view is that there is no second religion. There is only one religion. That religion is God, and to love God. So if you get this perfection through any religion, that's all right. Just like you are educated. You have passed M.A. Your aim is to pass M.A. examination—you can pass through any college, any university, but your aim is how to pass M.A. examination; it doesn't matter. So if your purpose is served, then it doesn't matter whether you pass your examination from this college or this university or that university. That doesn't matter. But if your purpose is not served, then you are simply working uselessly. So any religion, it doesn't matter—Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism—if you have got actual conception of God, and if you have learned how to love Him, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is useless ritual simply. That is the test. Professor Lewcock: Yes. So this means that you have some doubts about . . . (indistinct) . . . Buddhism? You feel that they . . . Prabhupāda: No. I don't particularly say any ism. But our aim is how to understand God and how to love Him. That's all. But if in your religious system there is no sense of God, and what to speak of to love Him, we take it useless. It may be very great propaganda, but ultimately if one does not understand what is God and how to love Him, then it is useless. What is the use of following such religion if I do not come to the ultimate understanding? We take it as useless. Our test is there. You may represent yourself as Buddhist or Hindus or Mohammedan—I want to test whether you have learned to love God, whether you have now some knowledge of God. Because if you love to God, you must have some knowledge. You cannot love something fictitious. That is not love. When I ask you to love, "love" means some person. You are not to love some air in the sky. You cannot love. That is not possible. So whether you have got any question when there is love of God, whether you have got any knowledge of the person of God, and what is His nature, what is the difference between God and me—this is the science of God—then there is question of love. So we are propagating, "Just try to understand what is God and love Him." That's all. It doesn't matter through which source you are getting that knowledge, but if that source is helping you to this end, that is perfect. Otherwise it is useless. Because unless you come to this point, you will never be satisfied. So when you come to this point, how to love God, then you will be your perfection of life. You will be fully satisfied. That here I've got the thing. Everyone is hankering after satisfaction of his heart that, "I have got now everything." So that can be achieved only by loving God. Otherwise it is not possible. So we are presenting, "Here is God—Kṛṣṇa." Now it is up to you to accept Him or not. That is your business. But we are presenting: here is God; here is His name; here is His activity; here is His devotee. He is accepted by so many stalwarts, so many scholar, so many devotee, so many śāstras . That we are presenting: "Here is God. You are searching after God? Here is God. See Him." But if you do not accept, it is your business. If you say: "Why shall I accept Him God?" that also can be explained. Yes, you must accept Him, because this is the qualification of God, and there all the qualifications are there. Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean . . ." or "Can you define what is God?" Can you? Professor Lewcock: Well, God embraces everything. God embraces all . . . Prabhupāda: That is not proper definition. God embraces everything—that is one of the qualities, because . . . He embraces everything, then why they become impersonalist? You say He embraces? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is person. So where from these impersonal ideas come? Who is that He? This is real knowledge. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: As you said that He embraces, the next question, "Who is that He?" Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to say who is that He. If you cannot, then your knowledge is imperfect. But we say: "Here is God. Here is Kṛṣṇa, God." And those who are accepting, they are getting the benefit. So we are not presenting something fictitious. Presenting real, on the authority. Just like if I say—you are searching after spectacle—"Here is spectacle." So you test it by putting on your ear, "Yes," then it is spectacle. Similarly, we are putting "Here is God." So you try to love, and this is the process of loving Him. So if you accept everything, you will see, "Yes, I have got God." It is practical; it is not imaginary. These boys, they did not know what is God. I have simply said: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You love Him," and they are loving, and they are realizing. Yes, realizing. Now convince him that He is not God. He will never become convinced, because he has got the reality. You cannot try to deviate him: "No, no, it is not God." Do it. Any scholar, any ācārya , let him come, any yogī —he will be defeated. He has firm conviction, and he can argue, he can convince you, "Yes, here is God." (to devotee) Is it not? If somebody challenges it that "Kṛṣṇa is not God," then what you will say? If somebody says that you have accepted a false God, then what you will say? You will give up Kṛṣṇa, or what you will do? *Revatīnandana: We get out the Bhagavad*-gītā we fight. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: No. He may say: "I do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ." Then what you will do? Revatīnandana: Challenge his authority. "If you don't accept our authority, what is your authority?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to ask that, "You present what is God. You present what is God." If he says: "I do not know," then, "You accept my God. You do not know. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God. You said this is not spectacle. So that means you must know what is spectacle. And if you cannot present, then what is the value of your saying it is not? You present counter God, and you prove that he is God. In the absence of your perfect knowledge in God, then you accept my God, what I am presenting. Because you have no knowledge; you are admitting. So you take the knowledge from me, authorized knowledge. It is not my whimsical knowledge." So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are presenting: "Here is God—love Him. Your life will be perfect." And anyone who is doing that, he is coming to the perfectional point. Just like if I give a plate of, prasādam , you take it. You are hungry: "Take: here is food." You take it, you will understand, "Yes, my hunger is satisfied. I am getting strength." You don't require certificate from others. Similarly, if I present, "Here is God; You love Him," and immediately the certificate will be. He will perceive, "Yes, here is God." Exactly in the same way: if you are eating, if it is actual food, and if you are hungry, then use the food; you will feel strength, satisfaction of hunger, and you will say: "No, no. I don't want any more food. This is all right." Similarly, when you begin to love Kṛṣṇa, then you will understand, "Yes, here is God." Nobody will be required to give proof that He is God. You will understand that He is God. So we are doing that service. You are searching after God: "Take; here is God. Now love Him." What do you think? Is it not our process? Revatīnandana: Yes. It is. *Prabhupāda: This is process. "Here is God. Take Him." Vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma*-bhaktau (Bs. 5.33). You cannot search out God by reading so many books and literature, but a devotee can deliver it: "Take God. Here is God." That is devotee's prerogative. "Here is God. Take delivery, direct." Otherwise you go on searching many, many lives. Therefore it is said: (knock on door) Prabhupāda: (answering) Yes? Haṁsadūta: Come in. Prabhupāda: Yes? Oh. So this is the process. You have to approach somebody who knows God, and he can deliver you God: "Take. Here is God." That is the method. Otherwise, God cannot be searched out. God is not so cheap thing. Therefore there are so many scholars, philosophers, they are talking of all nonsense about God. Actually they do not believe in God. Haṁsadūta: Just talk. Prabhupāda: Just talk. Simply waste of time. Vikatthante . The exact word used in *Bhāgavatam* , vikatthante : talking all nonsense. Vikatthante . So God is there. You can realize God, provided you come to the right channel, right process. That's all. Now this lady, she always says that, "Now I have got the thing." So she is elderly lady, educated and everything. She was searching after God. Now she is thinking, "Yes, I have got God," and she is very enthusiastic to serve God. (pause) You are following which religion, Mrs. Sanjivin? Mrs. Sanzoni: I am Christian. Prabhupāda: Christian. That's nice. So Christian religion has got conception of God. Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is the actual feature of God. Is it not? Do you know? What is your conception of God? In Christian religion, they accept there is God, because Christ is son of God. So what is your conception of God? Mrs. Sanzoni: Creator. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: Creator, she said. Prabhupāda: Creator. So He must be a person. Is it not? Creator. I have created this table, then I am a person; I have got brain; I have got hands how to work. So as soon as you say creator, then He must be a person. Is it not? Hmm? No clear idea. As soon as you say "creator," is He not a person? So have you seen that person? Or have you seen His pictures or the description of the body? Just like we sometimes see the picture, here is the man who has created this table. Similarly, if the creator is a person, we must have a vision of that person. Otherwise it is imperfect knowledge. I have heard that there is a queen, but if I have seen the picture also, then it is more perfect "The queen is like this." Therefore in every stamp, every paper, the queen's picture is there, so that people may not forget that, "Queen is a person, and here is the photograph." Otherwise why so much advertisement? Let her remain as person in her Buckingham Palace. Why she is advertised in so many ways? And she comes also out of the Buckingham Palace and sees you and talks with you. Similarly, if God is a person, we have to learn how to seen Him, how to talk with Him, how to appreciate Him, how to love Him, the next question is. Simply to have a conception that God is creator, that is not perfect knowledge. Do you admit it or not? Mrs. Sanzoni: (indistinct) . . . who is God? Prabhupāda: Who is God? Yes, that is my question. So if you have knowledge of God, you must say who is God. As you say "creator," I say: "Who is that creator?" So you have to describe, otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Is it not? Mrs. Sanzoni: I'm so sorry, I thought I asked the question. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: She wants to ask you the question—who is God? Prabhupāda: Yes, that we have already explained: Kṛṣṇa. Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. His picture is here. That picture is there. There are so many pictures showing He is God— *Kṛṣṇa Book* and this. So many. Here is God. You see? Mrs. Sanzoni: I think it's a book. Prabhupāda: It is book? It is not knowledge? Mrs. Sanzoni: It's knowledge—but in a book. Prabhupāda: So how you can know God? In the air, do you think? Everything we have to know. Why this professor is there? He teaches his student from the air? Do you think like that? How he teaches? Professor, how do you teach? Professor Lewcock: Yes, we teach from the books and ideas Prabhupāda: Through books. So why do you say this is book? This is knowledge. "This is book" means imperfect knowledge. This is knowledge. You have to learn from the professor, from the right man; *then you get the knowledge. śāstra*-cakṣusā . This is the definition in the Vedas , that your eyes should be śāstra , or the books. That is your eyes. These eyes have no value. It is useless. As soon as the light is gone, your eyes' value of eyes gone, immediately. What is the value of your eyes? You have to hear from the right person. That is knowledge. If you want to see God, if you want to touch God, that is not possible in this condition. You have to hear about God. And that hearing is there. Therefore it is called śruti. Śruti means the hearing process, śravaṇam , hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), to hear about the Lord. So these are the imperfect knowledge, that when we give you book of knowledge you say it is book. So book is the source of knowledge. Therefore it is said that you have to surrender to a person. I give you knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. You say: "Oh, it is book." That means you have no surrender; you think that I am giving something else. Therefore the first process is if you want to know something, you must approach to a suitable person where you can surrender: "Yes. Whatever he says, I will accept." Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself on the standard that you know everything, you can examine everything, then you cannot make progress. Mrs. Sanzoni: If one cannot read this book? Prabhupāda: One can hear. Therefore I say hear. Just like you are hearing. If you cannot read, that doesn't matter, but you hear from the right person. Blind man cannot see, but that does not mean he cannot walk, because the ear is there. His father calls him, "My dear boy, come here." So he cannot see his father, but he goes there. So it does not mean that because he cannot see, but because he was not educated, the knowledge is stopped. No. The real knowledge comes from the aural reception. You hear. Book is meant for hearing. Unless you hear in this book, there is no use. (aside) You can give her that. (pause) What is that verse? Pradyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Prabhupāda: Oh, that is already explained. Professor Lewcock: Master, you explained that the material world is imperfect, or illusion, even though. But presumably devotees who have followed the path of spiritual enlightenment for long enough have reached a state which is very little imperfect—it's hardly imperfect at all. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: No. You cannot expect, when a student is admitted in your college, you cannot expect him that he has become perfect. Professor Lewcock: No. Prabhupāda: But because he is studying, because he is continuing the studies, then he will be perfect. Similarly, in our institution it is not that all our students are perfect, but because they are following the rules and regulation and struggling, they will be perfect. Just like the example is given that a girl is married. So every girl wants some child, but if she thinks, "Now I am married, I must have immediately child," that is not possible. But because she is married, because there is husband, there must be a child. That is there. And if she thinks, "Oh, I am married. Where is my child?" that is not possible. You have to wait. But because there is husband and you are wife, there must be child. This is going on. So similarly, when we admit a student and they follow regulative principles, you must get realization one day—today or tomorrow. Professor Lewcock: Do they get it only after a series of transmigrations? *Prabhupāda: No. In this life. Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out that: In this life. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: That's it. You simply understand Kṛṣṇa and you are immediately promoted. You haven't got to wait for next birth. But if you do not complete your studies to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to wait. You must finish the business. So if you are serious, you can finish their business, understanding Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after giving up this body you enter back to home, back to Godhead. That depends on my endeavor. One student passes in one examination; another student does not pass even three examination. It is like that. If you become serious that, "In this life I shall have thorough understanding of Kṛṣṇa and finish it, and next life I shall go directly to Kṛṣṇa," that is possible. It is said there, tyaktvā dehaṁ —immediately after giving up this body, immediately soul is transferred to the spiritual world. Professor Lewcock: And many devotees are able to achieve this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everyone can achieve, provided they endeavor seriously. Not many—everyone. The same example: everyone can pass the examination on the first appearance. Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if somebody is neglectful, then he does not pass. It is question of seriousness. Otherwise, everyone can pass in the first examination. Where is the difficulty? So therefore that opportunity is here in the human form of life, that in this human form of life we can stop the repetition of transmigration from one body to another. If he finishes this Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, immediately next life he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if he does not finish, if he gets another body—it doesn't matter; one does not know what kind of body he is going to get—then this opportunity is missing. This opportunity, the advanced consciousness, is missing. Therefore we should utilize properly our advanced consciousness to understand God and then go back to Him. That is the mission of human life. And if we waste our life like cats and dogs, that is a risky business. The cats and dogs, they are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, or God. They are interested eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. That's all. So if we simply use our this valuable life simply like cats and dogs—eating, sleeping, sex life and defense—they are missing the opportunity. Our propaganda is that "Don't miss this opportunity. You take advantage of this life and try to understand Kṛṣṇa, God, and go back to Him, so you become relieved from this repetition of birth and death." But people do not understand that there is birth after . . . there is life after death. They do not understand. Therefore he has to become a student and learn from these books and prepare for the next life; then everything is all right. You are following what I say? Mrs. Sanzoni: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what you are going to do in this life? You shall miss the opportunity or take the opportunity? That is in our hands. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, we do," Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru —the independence is given. God has given us independence: "If you want to remain in this illusory material world, you remain, and struggle for existence, but if you want to come to Me, where I am, come on." So there is no fault on the part of God. It is our fault. Professor Lewcock: Yes Prabhupāda: Yes. (to devotee) Where is Śivānanda now? Haṁsadūta: He is in Berlin. In Berlin. Prabhupāda: Berlin. And she? Where she lives? Haṁsadūta: Hamburg. Prabhupāda: With you? Haṁsadūta: No, she is staying with her parents. Prabhupāda: So you are chanting? *Vṛndā*-devī: No, I stopped . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Why you stopped? If you did not like Śivānanda, why you did not like chanting? *Vṛndā*-devī: Pardon? Revatīnandana: (repeating Śrīla Prabhupāda's question) He said if you did not like Śivānanda, why you did not like chanting at least? *Vṛndā*-devī: Oh. I couldn't believe anymore in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What do you believe? What is your belief now? You did not believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is all right, but what do you believe now? *Vṛndā*-devī: I don't know what to say. I believe that . . . Prabhupāda: You believe in eating and sleeping, that is all? *Vṛndā*-devī: I believe that there's something that's greater than I, that I don't understand, but . . . (indistinct) . . . function in the movement. So I left. Prabhupāda: Then do you believe in something now or not? Haṁsadūta: She said that she believes that there is something greater than she is, but she doesn't understand what that thing is. And she thought she couldn't have . . . find that understanding in . . . Prabhupāda: How she will understand that? Haṁsadūta: How will you understand it? *Vṛndā*-devī: I haven't thought of a very definite way of trying. I haven't met anyone else who could really . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not believe very seriously. You do it conveniently. That is your position. You believe something greater, but you are not serious about it, because you do not know what is that greater. *Vṛndā*-devī: Well, I think that . . . (indistinct) . . . couldn't understand what was the way to . . . Prabhupāda: But that you could not. That you could not. You have no idea what is greater than Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You simply rejected one. Just like a man is serving somewhere, and he resigns that post. And if somebody asks him, "What next post you have got?" "No, I have none," then what is the gain? Huh? If you leave some post, "Oh, it is not very nice," then you must get another post which is very nice. But if somebody asks you that, "You have left this post. What you have got next?" "No, that I do not know," then what is your gain? You have left something, but in exchange you must get something very nice. But if you haven't got that, then what is the use of leaving this? That is the way when you go forward—you step like this. So when you step, and you are confident that, "Now my foot is in ground," then you take it. Then again. This is the way. So if you are uncertain, then how you can you make progress? That means you are standstilled. And that is not good. If you think that there is something better, then you must take it. *Vṛndā*-devī: I'm looking for it but . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very difficult for me to understand myself, because with my own power. I have to wait until it comes from somewhere else. Prabhupāda: It will drop. You will not try, it will come and drop—that is not possible. Find out what you think is something better—otherwise, what is the use of leaving something? You don't think Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is very good? You don't think? *Vṛndā*-devī: I wouldn't say that it is not good, but . . . Prabhupāda: You said something better you want. That means that you say it is not good, that you think like that. Otherwise how do you say "Something better"? *Vṛndā*-devī: Not something better, something that I can . . . that is not too much demand, I thought it was, that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: Too difficult. Revatīnandana: It was too much demand and too much sacrifice required. Prabhupāda: In Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You want something cheap. Yes? That is your idea? *Vṛndā*-devī: I wouldn't call it cheap. Prabhupāda: God is not so cheap. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa tyāgena (SB 6.1.13). These are the process one has to go, undergo. Just like Lord Jesus Christ, he understood God. How much tapasya he had gone through? At the end he had to sacrifice his life, crucified. So if you want to know God, it is not so very easy thing. If you think this is difficult, something cheap you want, God is not so cheap. You have to take some difficult task to understand God. *Vṛndā*-devī: I agree with that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not possible. You can see from the example, those who realized—Lord Jesus Christ, how much difficulties he had to undergo—austerity, from the very beginning of his life. He went to India and so many places, then he had to face so many dangers. So it is not cheap thing. *Vṛndā*-devī: Yes, but as some more doubt came in, because . . . Prabhupāda: No. First of all you must be prepared to undergo all the difficulties. If you think it is very difficult, difficult it is . . . anything you want. Suppose you want to pass M.A. examination. Does it mean that you'll, simply sitting, you will pass the examination? You have to take some difficult task. Everything. Without labor, without difficulties, you cannot achieve anything higher. That is not possible. Easygoing is not good. Easygoing is for the animals—eat, sleep, drink and die. That is easy going life— cats and dogs. They, whatever their capacity is there for eating, sleeping and little sex life and little defending, that is all. They do not know anything more. So for human life we should not be so easy going. Human life is meant for tapasya . That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* : *This life, it is not . . . this human form of life is not meant for easy going life, hogs and dogs. Yes. Why hogs? This name is mentioned: viḍ*-bhujāṁ . The hogs, their life is eating stool, and they have got the power to get physical strength by eating stool. Stool is medically full of hypophosphites. So they get good much quantity of hypophosphite, therefore hog very quickly becomes strong, aggressive. They are eating actually chemically nice food. (laughter) And as soon as the body is little fatty and strong, then sex impulse is agitated. And they have got free sex impulse. The hog does not care whether mother or daughter or nothing. You see? So this facility, eating stool and having sex life with anyone, they are thinking they are very nice. They are thinking, "I am very nicely situated." This is not meant for the human life—eating very nice, getting hypophosphite and having sex agitation very nice, to enjoy. That's all. Finish. That is not human life. That is hog's life. *Vṛndā*-devī: (indistinct) . . . undergoing austerities. One is not accustomed . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So find out that point. But this easy going life is hog's life. Is it not? Hog is also thinking that, "I am very satisfied." Therefore śāstra says that the human life is not to be spoiled like hog's life. This therefore this very name given— viḍ*-bhujāṁ. This life is meant for tapasya . (break) (aside) So you want to give them prasāda ? Revatīnandana: Actually, they will be right now preparing us some plates, so . . . Prabhupāda: So how do you think of our philosophy? Professor Lewcock: I think it is very impressive. It's a great honor to hear you explaining it so clearly. Prabhupāda: It is authorized, scientific. Professor Lewcock: You're very direct, simple. And I like the living the other things that you've said. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Professor Lewcock: I think it is very true. The person who does not spend time endeavoring to experience, or is not doing anything worthwhile in their lives . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, God has created us . . . so He has created our food also. Just like a man is criminal, and the government has put him into the jail; that does not mean he will starve. He will get food there. Similarly, although we are in this material world, the food arrangement is there. We can take it from the lower creatures, just as the hog, he is also eating. He has no . . . nothing to bother where he shall get, the food is there. Any bird, beast, beginning from ant to the elephant, there is food for everyone. So I am human being; I am also one of them. If the elephant can get his food and the ant can get his food and the hog can get, why I shall not get my food? This is common sense. So why shall I embarrass myself for my food so much? This is human consciousness. Let me utilize my energy for understanding God. This is real human life. Food is there. If the God has provided food for the hogs and dogs and ants and elephants, why not for me? Practically we take meal in every center, fifty to two hundred men. So we have no problem how we shall eat, neither we are doing any business or profession. No. We go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and try to sell our literature. That is also for propagation. So God is supplying our food. That much faith we must have. So God has provided food for everyone, why not for me? I have dedicated my life for God, and I shall starve? Is there any reason? If God has provided food for everyone—even nondevotees, birds, beasts, ants, everyone—and I have dedicated my whole life for God, and I shall starve? No. They must get somewhere. Therefore my business is to save time for searching out food; better employ that time for understanding God. This is called tapasya—tapo divyaṁ . This is called tapasya. Divyaṁ. Divyaṁ means "for the Supreme." This is the only business of human being, that he should be satisfied with bodily comfort as much God gives. That much. He should not endeavor for betterment. Our students all say—we can lie down on the floor. Actually we have no furniture; we lie down on the floor. But if God gives us a nice place, we don't deny it also. Just like this building is given by George Harrison. So we were in a small building—that building is also still there, 7 Bury Place—and now He has given a big place. God has given. God has inspired him, so we don't deny it. "All right." But if He says that, "You go away," we can go away, because we know if we go away from this place we will get another place. God has provided. That much belief we have got. So there is no difficulty for these things—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So we are trying to save time simply to understand God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other business. So we are writing books, we are preaching, everything, whatever there—selling books—only for propagating God consciousness. So many people send us money: "Sir, you are doing very nice work. You are spreading God consciousness. Here is my little contribution." God sends. So we have no economic difficulty. Our expenditure is very, very heavy. Yes. So people can practically see. They will complain so many difficulties. As soon as we shall say: "Why don't you come and live with us here in this nice building?" that he'll not do. He'll go away. So what we can do? We are prepared to receive anyone, everyone: "Come on, live with us." No. He or she wants something better. What better place one can get? Such a nice atmosphere, nice all big building, nice prasādam . Still, what better? Professor Lewcock: But the people who have to work in order to keep other people happy with food and the necessities of their life, you believe that they can simply work in their spare time towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You don't believe that everybody should give up their work in order to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole time? Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say that. You work, but you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our philosophy. You remain in your position; it doesn't matter. But you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like I explained to you, that it may be any religion you profess; it does not matter. We want that whether you have learned what is God and how to love Him. That is all. Similarly, you remain in your position but become God conscious; then your life will be successful. This is our propaganda. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you give up your job, your position, you become a sannyāsī or you become this or that. No. We don't say that. We simply say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Try to understand God and love Him. (break) Professor Lewcock: . . . build a temple. You have a temple being built downstairs, and there is one in the grounds. And how much time will your devotees spend in prayer in the temple? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four hours. *Professor Lewcock: I see. You would like the temple to be in use twenty*-four hours? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are engaged twenty*-four hours, from morning four o'clock to ten o'clock at night. Then we go to rest for five to six hours. Then again our begins. After all, we have got this body; there must be some rest. But if we can work without taking rest, that also we accept. Professor Lewcock: And physical discipline you regard as just one path to . . . for spiritual enlightenment? Prabhupāda: That is our only aim, how to become . . . Professor Lewcock: Yes, but there are many paths. There are many paths. There's the path of spiritual understanding, there is the path of bhakti , and then there's the path of discipline. *Prabhupāda: Just like I have told you that the ultimate issue there is nothing but spiritual. So why not try for the spiritual? That will include everything. Ultimately you have to realize spiritual. And everything is spiritual. So there may be different names, but there is a process to understand. We have to follow that process. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā , that two energies—material energy and spiritual energy—both of them coming from God. Just heat and light coming from the sun, similarly both the energies coming from Kṛṣṇa. But . . . (knock on door) Yes? . . . one is superior and the other is inferior. (devotees enter with prasādam ) So take little prasāda . (break) Professor Lewcock: No living thing is killed. You do not eat eggs? Do you regard eggs as life? Prabhupāda: No, we don't take fish, eggs, meat. Professor Lewcock: Ah, you don't eat eggs at all? Prabhupāda: Yes. We actually eat what Kṛṣṇa eats. If Kṛṣṇa eats eggs, then we can eat it. But He does not eat. (laughter) Our policy is we do not eat anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. If Kṛṣṇa said: "Give Me meat," then we shall eat meat. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ (BG 9.26). We have no responsibility. Professor Lewcock: I see, yes. Prabhupāda: Even those who are vegetarian, they are also . . . they have also responsibility for being punished, for being punished, because vegetable has got life. Professor Lewcock: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be punished. Professor Lewcock: I see. Prabhupāda: You cannot kill anyone, either vegetable or man or . . . Professor Lewcock: I see. So here you have rice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rice is not killing the tree. Professor Lewcock: Not killing it. Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: We do not kill. And even we kill, we can kill for Kṛṣṇa. So we have no responsibility. If you ask me to kill somebody, then you are responsible. Just like you kill one snake with a stick, the stick is not responsible. Professor Lewcock: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: You are responsible. (chuckles) Similarly, we are simply stick, instrument in the hands of Kṛṣṇa. Whatever He does, we try to assist Him. That is all. So we have no responsibility. We are free. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājāṁ (Bs. 5.54). Those who are devotee, they are not bound up by any karma . So our position is very safe. Suppose a father maintains his children. The father may do something criminal for getting the money, but the children are not responsible. It is a crude example. The father will be responsible. The father also will not say that, "For you I have not become responsible." Father will never say. So Kṛṣṇa can do anything and everything, as He likes. He is supreme power. So we take protection of Kṛṣṇa, so we have no responsibility. Our only responsibility is that we fully depend on Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Professor Lewcock: Master, how many devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Neither we try to find out something better than Kṛṣṇa. That we don't try. We are finally taken. There cannot be anything better than Kṛṣṇa. Take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and be satisfied. That's all. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very simple thing. And Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. Kṛṣṇa is the master of all mystic power. So our endeavor is not in vain. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo (BG 18.78). Yātrā, śrī, vijaya —everything. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is way sublime. One has to learn it only—if he is fortunate. Otherwise he will not be able to learn it. If he is duṣkṛtino , sinful, he will not be able to understand. Professor Lewcock: Master, how many thousands of devotees of Kṛṣṇa consciousness are there? Prabhupāda: That is very difficult to say. So suppose I am talking to you for the last more than one hour; you have not become my devotee. So we have to spend gallons of blood to make a devotee; therefore we cannot expect many number. Professor Lewcock: No. *Prabhupāda: You have to talk like this for years, then one becomes a devotee. So we cannot expect a very large number. That is not possible. But if we can make one man devotee, then we think our preaching attempt is successful. Yes. It doesn't matter—one. We don't want many. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tāra*-sahasrasaḥ —one moon is sufficient; there is no need of millions of stars. What is the use if one does not understand? If one understands, that is sufficient. He'll make many others. That is our policy. But we cannot expect a large number. That is not possible. Still, we have got many thousands. But they are very rigid. Solid. Yes. Professor Lewcock: Yes. But the movement is growing. Is the movement growing rather fast now? Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everything there is, but still people do not come. (laughter) Everything fine. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful. Kṛṣṇa's service is so nice. Kṛṣṇa's prasādam is so nice. Kṛṣṇa's devotees are so nice. Everything nice—cent percent. But still people deny it. The same thing, that the hog, he is satisfied by eating stool, but if he is given nice halavā , he'll refuse. Hog taste. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Last night we went home in the car, Mr. Schumacher and Mr. Papworth. So I went with them to talk. I thought I could engage them perhaps in some way. So Mr. Schumacher was complaining that even to live in a house and a little garden will require so much money. It is such a problem just for his children to have a garden. He was complaining. So I said: "Well, we've got this nice place, nice garden. We are not having any trouble. You just come and bring your family. Immediately you can come." And from that point he argued all the way home. He found this fault, that fault, next fault. He would not take. Then the argument began. Haṁsadūta: I was told that if you ask a rickshaw man in Calcutta that, "Just come with us. We will give you some clothing, we will give you some food, nice place to live you; just have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," he will say no. Prabhupāda: Not interested. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: He'd rather pull the rickshaw. Prabhupāda: Actually it so happened one . . . long ago. One man, one servant, he lost his job, so he approached one gentleman—he was a devotee—"Sir, I have lost . . . if can you give me." So he said that "At present I don't require any servant. Anyway, you are in trouble, so you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," and he was a devotee, "and I will give you the payment, whatever . . . you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So after three, four days he could not find out the man. Then he thought that he might have got some service. But "How is that? He did not say anything like that." So after three, four years he met him again. So when he narrated this story, that "You came here. I wanted to give you the payment, so why did you go away?" "Sir, it was very difficult. To chant Hare Kṛṣṇa all day night was just impossible." (laughter) Although the payment was there, he said it was impossible. "Therefore I went away." "Therefore I went away." Yes. He will whole day work, pull on the rickshaw, and still he will not accept to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. The same example: if you tell the hog that "Why you are rotting in this way? Come on, I shall give you daily halavā ," "No, sir. I cannot go. I have got so much responsibility." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ei rupe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151): only the fortunate man can get to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Bhāgyavān means "fortunate." *So without being fortunate one cannot accept, even you give all facilities. That is the difficulty. So we give chance people to become bhāgyavān , fortunate, by preaching, going door to door, vibrating Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , so that the unfortunate can become also fortunate one day. This is preaching. Otherwise, if people accept it immediately, there is no difficulty. But he is so unfortunate they will not accept. Therefore we have to create his fortune by forcing him to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . This is preaching. Mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). So we have to create him a little devotee; then he'll come follow us. So you take that little, you are read . . . (referring to previous discussion) And what he settled then? He is not coming? Revatīnandana: No. We argued all the way. After that he found more faults. *Prabhupāda: Must be engaged in shoe*-making. (laughter) That is very good. And without working he'll get nice food—that is not required. Better shoe-maker. Revatīnandana: Mr. Papworth is more . . . Mr. Papworth, he is coming. He is attracted. *Prabhupāda: And the shoe*-maker (Schumacher) will also be attracted. Revatīnandana: Not after we got home. We had a big argument. There were so many things. It will be some time . . . Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent man; he can argue with them. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says fortunate—only the fortunate man can accept. Mrs. Sanzoni: Do you have many devotees in India? Prabhupāda: All Indians. Mrs. Sanzoni: All . . . all across India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You don't know that? Mrs. Sanzoni: Yes, I guessed so, but you know . . . Prabhupāda: Even though they are not Hindus, they are also Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mrs. Sanzoni: Anyone who is conscious of God? Prabhupāda: No—Kṛṣṇa practically. There are many Muhammadans, they observe Kṛṣṇa's birthday ceremony. Many Christians, many Muhammadans all over the world, they accept Kṛṣṇa. (break) What is his argument, that he does not like to come here? *Revatīnandana: Well, it was a gradual development. First the reporter, he asked me what do I think of this Guru Maharaj*-ji. And I said: "Well, we think he is a demon." So they didn't like that. So then I proved it. They argued, "Oh . . ." So the reporter argued. So I gave him five, six reasons why he is a demon, and he couldn't say anything. So then Schumacher said, "Well that is all right, but what about some really great saint, like Ramakrishna?" Prabhupāda: Another demon. (laughter) Revatīnandana: So I had to, er, say that, "Well, we cannot accept him as incarnation of God, and we cannot accept his philosophy, that any path will take you to God, that you can eat anything, you can do anything, if you believe this or that; whatever you believe you will come to God." I said: "We cannot accept that." Oh, he didn't like that, you know. Prabhupāda: Because he is of that nature. Revatīnandana: Yes, that all religions are the same—this is his philosophy. So . . . and he made the assertion that at least you must accept that the four main religions—he said Christianity, Hinduism, Muhammadanism and Buddhism . . . Prabhupāda: No, we accept any religion. But we want to see that whether has become a lover of God. That's all. Revatīnandana: Well, he said: "So they are all the same teaching," he said. So I had to say: "Well actually Buddhist teaching is not the same." Then it turns out that he is big expert on Buddhism. So he said: "Oh, it is identical." So I said: "Well, for instance, Christ calls God the father; means God is a person. But Buddha spoke of . . . would not speak of God; he spoke only of a negation of the material, something void." Prabhupāda: Zero. Revatīnandana: Zero, void. He said: "Well, that's only symbols. The words are only so many symbols, but the teaching is the same." I said: "But actually the symbols are different; the teaching is different." He said, "Oh, you are very intolerant." He got very . . . he began to get upset. So it went on for some time. It was a long drive. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . speaking that ultimately you go back to home, back to Godhead, and you live there peacefully, eternal life, and somebody says ultimately you will become zero. So there is no comparison? Everything is all right? Both of them are the same? How can you say? I am giving you something tangible idea, and you are saying that the ultimate is zero. So both of them are the same? How one reasonable man can think of it? If I am promising somebody that, "You come to me; I shall give you good salary," and somebody promises, "Yes, come to me. I shall give you zero," the same thing? Any sane man will say now both the same? Zero and good situation is the same? How is that? Revatīnandana: Actually, when he was saying that I made a very bad social mistake. I said: "If we say that all these teachings are the same, but clearly there are so many different things," I said: "it will only indicate soft intelligence." I didn't mean directly him, but actually I didn't think . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I did mean . . . oh, he got very upset. "Oh, I have got soft intelligence!" Oh, he was very angry then. So then I had to apologize so many things. (laughing) But actually it is. If there is unity, it is on the principle that we are the eternal servants of God. So that . . . wherever that principle is found, that is the beginning of unity. But he would agree, but then he could not see that if God is a person then you can serve Him; if God is not a person, you cannot serve Him. Prabhupāda: Soft intelligence. Revatīnandana: It's very difficult. But I think that Mr. Papworth is a . . . he was listening, and finally when he left he smiled at me and shook my hand and he went into his house. He's coming back. Prabhupāda: If they say God is creator, He must be a person. Where you get the conception the creator is zero? How do you say that? Professor Lewcock: Well, the Buddhists believe that there is no God . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi . That is our daily prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi*-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe —to deliver the Western world from this impersonalism and voidism. Impersonalism, also voidism. It is describing in a different way. (end) Conversation -- August 5, 1973, London (Conversation with Professor Lewcock from Cambridge University and Others) Revatīnandana: So this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. This is Professor Ronald Lewcock from Cambridge University, and I don't . . . (break) name. Professor Lewcock: (indistinct) . . . Sanzoni, from Ceylon. Prabhupāda: Ceylon. Professor Lewcock: Sri Lanka. Prabhupāda: So you are also teacher here? Professor Lewcock: No . . . (indistinct) . . . working with the . . . Prabhupāda: So you want chair? Professor Lewcock: No, I'm very happy, honestly. Thank you. Prabhupāda: And this girl? *Haṁsadūta: This girl is Vṛndā*-devī—she's Śivānanda's wife. Prabhupāda: Oh! She has come . . . Haṁsadūta: From Germany, from Hamburg. Prabhupāda: Ah. So they are not living together? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You don't like Śivānanda? (laughter) He is nice boy. He is a very good boy. *Vṛndā*-devī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. I think you are also initiated? *Vṛndā*-devī: I have been initiated since . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Śivānanda is very nice boy. You live peacefully and preach this cult. Heh? *Vṛndā*-devī: And pray to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Live husband and wife together. That's all. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so far I know, he is one of my best students—Śivānanda. Very sincere boy, very devoted. I think you are fortunate to have such devotee husband. You should not neglect. According to Vedic civilization, when there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it is not taken very seriously. Professor . . .? Professor Lewcock: Lewcock. Prabhupāda: Lewcar. Professor Lewcock: Lewcock. Prabhupāda: What is spelling? *Revatīnandana: L*-e-w-c-o-c-k. Prabhupāda: (aside) So you want to close this? So you have known something of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? Professor Lewcock: Yes, I have indeed. Prabhupāda: Which book you have read? *Professor Lewcock: The Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: As It Is . Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted as preliminary study for understanding God. What is your opinion? Professor Lewcock: True. Prabhupāda: What is your opinion? Professor Lewcock: Oh, I am quite sure that it is a remarkable book full of many truths. May I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: As I understand it, the, one of the beliefs is that the senses mislead human beings, and that . . . is that incorrect? Revatīnandana: (explaining the question) The senses mislead human beings. That is . . . one of the beliefs of the *Gītā* , he understands, is that the senses mislead human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: And that in order to find God one has to objurgate the senses. Prabhupāda: No. One has to purify. Professor Lewcock: Ah. Prabhupāda: Because just like in my life I have never smoked. I never. So . . . I am giving an example. And somebody smokes. So smoking is not necessary, but somebody smokes—somebody does not. How it is? It is due to association. If I mix with smokers' association, then gradually I learn how to smoke. Similarly, if I mix with devotees' association, then I become gradually devotee. Professor Lewcock: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: So the sense is the same, but due to association it becomes polluted. So again by association it can be purified. But you cannot stop the senses. That is not the prohibition. Senses will remain, but for understanding what is God, we have to purify the senses. Professor Lewcock: Mrs. Sanzoni is an artist, and I am an architect by training, and so we both of us work with the senses, and we deal with the sense of vision. Do you consider that that is a handicap in any way, that the concentration that we have to put into our vision, into the study of responses to vision, sensual responses to vision and color, can be a handicap to . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: The question is that both Professor Lewcock and Mrs. Sanzoni—he is an architect . . . Prabhupāda: Mrs. Sanzoni . . . she is . . .? Revatīnandana: She is an artist. Prabhupāda: Artist. Revatīnandana: So they both have to utilize their senses, their eyes, etc., for their work all the time. Is that a handicap for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: No. That also can be puri . . . just like Mrs. Sanjiva is an artist, so she can paint Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The same art, artistic sense—just like all these pictures, they have been done by my students. Yes. All these pictures, any pictures we have got. So they are not accustomed to do this. They were painting some hippy ideas, some bamboos, like that. *Later on, when they are instructed that, "You paint this idea," they painted very nice. People are astonished that how European, American boys, they have painted such nice picture. So that is the process of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means: *The bhakti , devotional . . . bhakti*-yoga means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ —one has to first of all forget that he is such and such, such and such: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Ceylonese," "I am German." No. I am pure soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . When one is situated in that spiritual platform, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How to understand that I am spirit soul? People generally, they are in the bodily concept of life. Just like you say that Mrs. Such*-and-such, he's Ceylonese. "Ceylonese" means this body. You are Englishman means this body. So just like she has got this white dress, you have got this black-colored dress, so this is not very serious consideration. *Similarly, this body has no serious consideration. Unfortunately, at the modern education the body is giving more consideration. And they are fighting—"I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am Ceylonese," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am . . ." So for God*-realization one has to first of all sacrifice this bodily concept of life. Professor Lewcock: It is really that question of sacrifice that I was interested in. To what extent is it necessary to sacrifice the senses to find spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to understand really what you are. If you are wrongly thinking that you are coat—so what extent? Unless you forget that you are not coat—up to that extent. Not that fifty percent I have now understood. No. You have to forget that . . . actually you are not coat, so you have to forget it—to that extent. Because I am not actually this coat, so why should I consider that I am this coat and this shirt? This is covering of my body. So I have got my spiritual body, and mind, intelligence, ego is the subtle covering, and earth, water, air, fire, sky, the gross body. That is gross . . . two coverings. So when one dies, that means the outward gross covering is given up, but the soul is within the subtle covering—mind, intelligence. Therefore according to the mind's situation, the mind, intelligence carries the soul to another gross body. That is called transmigration of the soul. Professor Lewcock: But this occupation, preoccupation with the sensory things, is not in itself something which is going to stop the advancement of the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you become too much engrossed with the occupation of the senses, that is material state. Professor Lewcock: Can that withhold advancement, can prevent advancement? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) Can that kind of material use of the senses, can it be an impediment to advancement, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. Therefore we have to purify. Just like this hearing: if you hear something material activities, then you get one kind of information. Similarly, if you hear about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is another information. The senses used for the purpose, you get different types of knowledge. So in order to receive spiritual knowledge we have to stop the material activities and turn our activity to the spiritual side; then gradually we will understand. Professor Lewcock: To what extent does bhakti embrace only love of Kṛṣṇa? To what extent does it embrace love of other human beings, of other people living on the material state? Prabhupāda: If you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love human being very perfectly. But you are talking of human being, but why you are not talking of other beings? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: The living entities, they are not only limited with the human beings. The living entities, there are forms—8,400,000. Out of that, human being is about 400,000. The major portion of the living entities, there are 8,000,000's, 8,000,000's. But because we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore we rejecting this 8,000,000's and taking consideration only 400,000. This is due to lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he will not take to the 400,000. He will take 8,400,000, because all living entities are part and parcel of God. Just like you are, English man, she is Ceylonese, she is German, but we are all human beings. Similarly, there may be living entities in different dress—somebody as tree, somebody as fish, somebody as cat, somebody as dog, somebody as king, somebody as demigod, somebody as human being—but all of them are living entities in different dresses only. So if you are eager to do something well to the living entities, why you should limit yourself to the human being? That is my first question. Professor Lewcock: Yes. I agree with that. I certainly agree. But does bhakti embrace the love of . . . *Prabhupāda: All living entities. Bhakti embraces all living entities. That is the advantage of bhakti*-yoga . His vision is not imperfect. Therefore this question about human being, why you are interested with the human being only? That is my question. Why not other living entities, other living beings? Why? This is imperfect knowledge. Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Limited. Imperfect knowledge. And because you have got imperfect knowledge, therefore there is confusion. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one has to accept all living entities, because all living entities are part and parcel of God. So if you want to do harm to a vegetable, you have to consider. But because they have got imperfect knowledge, they are taking consideration of a few living entities, limited, within his circle, and others are neglected and they are ill*-treated. And therefore they are accumulating sinful life, and therefore they are suffering. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Do you have a concept of sin as such? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are prohibiting four sinful pillars—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. These are sinful life. Yes. Professor Lewcock: I see. And suffering is a sin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become . . . because just like if you break law, then you are punished. Even if you eat a little more than your capacity, immediately there is indigestion, diarrhea. So you cannot break the law, strict laws of material nature. If you break, that is sinful and you will be punished. This is sinful and pious. If you go exactly to the laws of nature, then it is pious. If you break, then you are sinful. This is not difficult to understand. Professor Lewcock: No. Not at all. But to what extent would doubt be regarded as a sin, or an element in sin? . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (explaining) What is doubt, he wants to know. Prabhupāda: Doubt is good, provided if you make progress. But if you stick to your own principle, and doubt there is, that is not good. When there is doubt, then you go to a person who can mitigate your doubt and explain. Yes. But if you stick to your own understanding, tradition, then doubt is not very beneficial. It sets you back. You cannot make progress. So as soon as there is doubt, you go to a person who can explain about your doubt. That is the Vedic injunction. These are the Vedic instruction. Doubt is good; it is the sign of making progress. But if you stick to your original idea, then doubt is setback: "Why I shall accept this? I have got my own tradition. I have got my own religion. I have got my own faith." Then he is doomed. Doubt is very good if you make progress, but if you stick to your own principle, then it is degraded. *Vṛndā*-devī: May I ask something? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Vṛndā*-devī: When you going off somewhere. Because you have doubts, how do you know you can trust them? Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are in need of a medical practitioner. How do you go to your medical practitioner? How do you go? Suppose you are diseased; you have to take advice of a physician. How do you go to your physician? *Vṛndā*-devī: Well, we have to trust someone . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? What she says? Haṁsadūta: She says you have to trust someone. *Prabhupāda: Just see. You have to trust somebody. You have to see the circumstances that, "Here is a physician. He is treating some men, and there are so many patients, and he has got the medical degree." That's all. Otherwise, how you can understand? Yet if you see one man, Dr. Such*-and-such, medical practitioner, and actually you see that some patients are there and he is giving medicine, and you can enquire also whether they are being cured—so these are the external features. With this you have to select. But the injunction is when you are diseased, you must go to a physician to consult. Similarly, when there is doubt you must go to a guru . Now who is a guru , the definition is there. Just like who is a medical practitioner, the definition is there. The medical practitioner must be a passed medical man; *he has passed in his medical examination—that is his qualification—and he is actually working in some hospital. Then you see, "Yes. Here is a medical practitioner." Similarly, the Vedic injunction is—to clear your doubts you must go to a guru . Who is a guru ? Brahma*-niṣṭham : he is fully convinced in the Absolute Truth. That's all. Or one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is guru . So you have to begin that "Here is a man; he is talking only of Kṛṣṇa consciousness," then he may be accepted. *There may be pseudo, but that is your fortune. Just like you have to go to a physician, but if the man is a pseudo, fraud, that is your misfortune. But God is in everyone's heart. He leads. If you are actually sincere and serious, He will take you to the real guru . That is God's grace. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-krpaya pāya (CC Madhya 19.151). So Kṛṣṇa is also working. He is seeing how much you are sincere. If you are serious, then He will lead you: "Here is a person . . . (indistinct) . . ." Mrs. Sanzoni: May I ask what is a good exercise against cynicism? Even though sometimes, when people have been betrayed by others, they . . . (indistinct) . . . become cynical and untrustworthy. What is a good exercise? Prabhupāda: Good exercise? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) What is a good exercise against cynicism? If you have been cheated by others, you may become cynical. And what is some remedy for cynicism? Prabhupāda: I am not expert in that science. I am sorry, I cannot give you advice. I am not cynicism. I have got business with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Lewcock: But I think you have already answered that, in a sense, by saying that anybody who has doubts has to find a guru to answer those doubts. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is clear. But I am not expert in cynicism. (chuckles) That is . . . the doubt is already cleared. You cannot make any man as dictionary: whatever you like, you question, and he'll answer. That is not possible. One has got his own line. So if you ask question on that line, that is bona fide. Professor Lewcock: Is it true, master, that when one met a guru who was right for one, one would know it in one's heart? Like a sign, a sign of certainty that one has found a guru who was giving advice that is right, a teaching that is right for that person? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all. Guru means tad viddhi praṇipātena . You have to find out a guru where you can surrender. That is the first business— praṇipātena. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to find out somebody where you can surrender. That is the first business. So then, paripraśa : asking questions. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena. (aside) Find out that verse. But our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice that it is remedy for all kinds of doubt. Now your question . . . what is the actual question? Revatīnandana: "What is the remedy for cynicism, when one becomes cynical?" Prabhupāda: We shall say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not bluff; *that is fact. Bhavauṣadhi . There are many diseases in this material world, but this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is suggested by Parīkṣit Mahārāja, nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhi (SB 10.1.4): the panacea for all kinds of diseases. Now if the question is made in full surrender, then it will be effective. And if you ask some question and think, "If I like, I shall accept it; otherwise I'll reject," so that personal question has no value. Therefore the first business is whether you are questioning after full surrender, "Yes, whatever answer will come from him, I shall accept." Then it is genuine question. And if you want to amend and verify it for your understanding, that is not genuine question. Is it? Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So therefore the first thing is praṇipāta. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. You should question to a person where you have fully surrendered: "Yes. Whatever answer you will give, I will accept." Then that question is bona fide. If you again put it in your own test, "Oh, this is not to my liking," then why did you question it? That is un–bona fide questioning. Therefore the question*-answer is allowed only between disciple and guru , not with outsiders. That is the actual position. Because outsider, they will question and waste time. They will not accept the answer. But the process is you shall question to a person where you have surrendered. That is the first. *Samit*-pāṇi śrotrīyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam (MU 1.2.12). Samit-pāṇi means folded hands, yes: "Sir, I have got this doubt." This is surrender. "If you kindly answer it." And that also should be there. Praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34)—surrender and sevayā . So there is some process. But if we simply question whimsically and take some answer and do not follow—simply waste of my time, your time and everything, that's all. You should be prepared to take the answer and take it seriously, then you should question; otherwise don't waste your time. That is the process. *So our answer is bhavauṣadhi . By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , everything— ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12)—everything becomes clear. That is the cha . . . this is the medicine, that a clear's all doubts: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ (CC Antya 20.12). And soon as all doubts are cleared, the blazing fire of material existence is extinguished. Just like the physician: unless you know that, "Whatever medicine the physician will give, I will accept," then what is the use of going there? When the physician prescribes something, and if you say: "No, I don't like this," (laughter) then what is the use of going there? Therefore the first is that, "I am going to this physician. Whatever prescription he will give, I will accept." Then you can go to the physician. The material life is cynicism. Everyone is cynical. *Anyone who is under the condition of this material nature is cynical, but he has forgotten his real identity. Just like a mad, crazy fellow who forgets what he is. He is even asking, rebuking his father, "What, you nonsense, who are you? Why you are standing here?" He forgets even the father. Piśācī —ghostly*-haunted, as one forgets the identity. So every one of us who has forget the identity and is thinking that I am this body is cynical, more or less. So anyone who is identifying with this body is cynical. So this man or that man or . . . there is no question of this man or that—everyone. Therefore the prescription is given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be gradually cleared. *So you can take this medicine and try it. (to lady) You are asking for your case or for somebody else? So anyone can take. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). What is that? Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34)? Pradyumna: *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So these are the condition—submissive; not to examine him. Therefore everywhere you go, just like if you go to a physician you must go there submissive, not on certain conditions. (pause) *In the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find all the answers. Here is the process how one should approach. So first thing is submissive. Professor Lewcock: But, master, you said a little earlier that doubts were good things, because they . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good thing. A good thing. Just like doubt whether there is some medicine or not. But when the medicine is given, if you accept it, then it is good. If you don't accept it, then you have wasted your time. Professor Lewcock: Yes. So the doubts are a way of communicating, of creating communication between media . . . Prabhupāda: It is a via media—for progress or regress. (pause) ' Lady Guest: Can I ask a question? . . . (indistinct) . . . I couldn't really understand the answer. When God creates something, you're teaching that He created these two energies, the spiritual energy and the material energy, and that in the material energy there is illusion, also imperfect. I can't really understand that, because when you say it's imperfect, but how can something imperfect be created . . . (indistinct) . . . illusion? Haṁsadūta: (explaining) How can God create something which is imperfect? Lady Guest: It's not criticism; it's . . . Haṁsadūta: We're saying the material world is imperfect, material energy, inferior energy, spiritual energy. So how do we understand that it is imperfect? Prabhupāda: It is not imperfect, but it is imperfect for my understanding. The creation is not imperfect. Just like the sun is always shining, but there is a cloud. The cloud is created under some perfect process. Is it not? Lady Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the cloud is imperfect process for me, because I cannot see the sun. Lady Guest: Our vision is imperfect . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is creating disturbances for my understanding. I am already imperfect, and it is creating disturbance, but the process of creating the cloud is not imperfect. There is a perfect process. So this is the position. So material means when we become imperfect to understand God, that is material. Some impediments comes before me—that is called māyā —which makes me imperfect to understand God. And that is material. Actually, the cloud is created by sun, by the sunshine, so it cannot be imperfect. But it has created an imperfect position for me to see the sun. Therefore material world is called imperfect. Otherwise it is not imperfect. For me it is imperfect—imperfect in the sense that there is hindrance to understand God. Just like due to my this material concept of life—"I am this body"—I am imperfect to understand my soul. But the creation of the body is not imperfect. There is perfect physiology, anatomy, how the bloods are circulating, how food is being transformed into blood, how they are going to the heart, going to the, by the head—that is a perfect creation. But although it is perfect, on account of my misfortune this is checking my understanding of the soul. Is it clear now? Lady Guest: No, I understood what you said, but then my vision or my understanding is imperfect, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to take lesson from the perfect. That is the advice. Go to guru. Lady Guest: Yes, but my question was how can something imperfect be there? Is it because you are teaching that we are very small parts, so we can't understand what is greater than we? Is that the imperfectness? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) How can anything imperfect be there? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: How can we be imperfect, even in our vision? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is called illusion. Lady Guest: But I don't believe we are imperfect. Prabhupāda: Nothing is imperfect; (laughter) therefore it is called illusion. Exact word is used: māyā. Yatāh bhāsa tattāh tamah . Just like we sometimes see the sun is in opposite side. Just like—what is now? The sun is this side? Eh? Haṁsadūta: The sun is now on this side, yes. Prabhupāda: The sun's reflection is on some mirror there, and the reflection is coming here. So I take the sunshine is coming from there. This is the idea of illusion. The sun is there—in my back side. The sunshine should have come from that side, but the sunshine is reflected in some mirror this side, and the mirror reflection is here: I am thinking the sunshine is coming from this side. This is the illusion. The fact is the sunshine is come from there, but I am thinking coming from this side. This is illusion. Or the reflection is . . . actually it is dark night, but reflection is coming, I am thinking it is light. There are so many. Sometimes we have seen that in motorcar at night, we see that in the sky there is a city, all lights. You have not that experience? Haṁsadūta: Another good example is when you said that when sometimes the clouds move over the moon, it looks like the moon is moving. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Actually it doesn't. Prabhupāda: It is not moving. Yes, there are so many. So the moon is perfect, the cloud is perfect, the movement is perfect, everything is perfect—but still I am in illusion: you see that the moon is moving. So therefore it requires little knowledge; then you become perfect. Therefore you have to go to a person who has got this knowledge. Then you will become perfect. Professor Lewcock: May I ask another question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: Do you believe that it is possible to come to spiritual advancement rather than through the senses? In other words, that . . . Prabhupāda: No, I said purified senses. Professor Lewcock: You can. Through the past senses. Prabhupāda: Purified. Professor Lewcock: Purified? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our process is to purify the senses: for right understanding. Professor Lewcock: Yes. I am thinking particularly, though, of a great painting or a great piece of music. Would you feel that there is a spiritual message in something which moves one very profoundly? Prabhupāda: Everything is spiritual, but by illusion we are dividing, "This is material; this is spiritual." Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything can be spiritualized by advancement of knowledge. Music can be spiritualized. Painting can be spiritualized. Everything can be spiritualized. And ultimate issue, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual. But by illusion, because I am forgetting the spiritual relationship, therefore I am making this distinction "material" and "spiritual." So as soon as they become completely realized on a higher platform, there is nothing as material. How there can be material? Because everything is emanation from the Supreme Spirit. Just like sunshine from the sun is heat and light. How it can be otherwise? But sometimes, by other conditions we feel it is cold. Just like the season changing, the atmosphere is changing. The sun is the same. The sunshine is the same, but by other condition, which is also created by the sun, sometimes we are feeling cold, sometimes we are feeling very hot. Or electricity—the same electricity working in the refrigerator and the heater, but the original nature of electricity is warm. How it is creating refrigerator cold? Under certain condition. So this condition is illusion. This condition does not remain—it comes and goes. So when we come to the perfect knowledge, then we can see that these conditions are illusion; really everything is spiritual. That is real knowledge. Professor Lewcock: So following that argument, all material things are . . . Prabhupāda: Illusion. Illusion. Professor Lewcock: Therefore they are all spiritual, ultimately. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ultimately there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual. Just like some foodstuff we are offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual, so how He is accepting material things? The same foodstuff eaten by somebody else, we say it is material, and the same foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa, we are offering prasādam . How it becomes prasādam ? *The laddu —what is the difference? The same thing, but there is difference. So when everything is in touch— nirbandha*-kṛṣṇa-sambhandhe —everything in touch with Kṛṣṇa, it becomes spiritualized. Generally we give this example—a iron rod put into the fire, it becomes warmer, warmer, then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch anywhere, it will burn. So by spiritual association everything becomes spiritualized. Yes. That is wanted. Professor Lewcock: I have another question. What is your view of other religions? Just to take a simple example: Christianity. Prabhupāda: No, our point of view is that there is no second religion. There is only one religion. That religion is God, and to love God. So if you get this perfection through any religion, that's all right. Just like you are educated. You have passed M.A. Your aim is to pass M.A. examination—you can pass through any college, any university, but your aim is how to pass M.A. examination; it doesn't matter. So if your purpose is served, then it doesn't matter whether you pass your examination from this college or this university or that university. That doesn't matter. But if your purpose is not served, then you are simply working uselessly. So any religion, it doesn't matter—Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism—if you have got actual conception of God, and if you have learned how to love Him, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is useless ritual simply. That is the test. Professor Lewcock: Yes. So this means that you have some doubts about . . . (indistinct) . . . Buddhism? You feel that they . . . Prabhupāda: No. I don't particularly say any ism. But our aim is how to understand God and how to love Him. That's all. But if in your religious system there is no sense of God, and what to speak of to love Him, we take it useless. It may be very great propaganda, but ultimately if one does not understand what is God and how to love Him, then it is useless. What is the use of following such religion if I do not come to the ultimate understanding? We take it as useless. Our test is there. You may represent yourself as Buddhist or Hindus or Mohammedan—I want to test whether you have learned to love God, whether you have now some knowledge of God. Because if you love to God, you must have some knowledge. You cannot love something fictitious. That is not love. When I ask you to love, "love" means some person. You are not to love some air in the sky. You cannot love. That is not possible. So whether you have got any question when there is love of God, whether you have got any knowledge of the person of God, and what is His nature, what is the difference between God and me—this is the science of God—then there is question of love. So we are propagating, "Just try to understand what is God and love Him." That's all. It doesn't matter through which source you are getting that knowledge, but if that source is helping you to this end, that is perfect. Otherwise it is useless. Because unless you come to this point, you will never be satisfied. So when you come to this point, how to love God, then you will be your perfection of life. You will be fully satisfied. That here I've got the thing. Everyone is hankering after satisfaction of his heart that, "I have got now everything." So that can be achieved only by loving God. Otherwise it is not possible. So we are presenting, "Here is God—Kṛṣṇa." Now it is up to you to accept Him or not. That is your business. But we are presenting: here is God; here is His name; here is His activity; here is His devotee. He is accepted by so many stalwarts, so many scholar, so many devotee, so many śāstras . That we are presenting: "Here is God. You are searching after God? Here is God. See Him." But if you do not accept, it is your business. If you say: "Why shall I accept Him God?" that also can be explained. Yes, you must accept Him, because this is the qualification of God, and there all the qualifications are there. Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean . . ." or "Can you define what is God?" Can you? Professor Lewcock: Well, God embraces everything. God embraces all . . . Prabhupāda: That is not proper definition. God embraces everything—that is one of the qualities, because . . . He embraces everything, then why they become impersonalist? You say He embraces? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is person. So where from these impersonal ideas come? Who is that He? This is real knowledge. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: As you said that He embraces, the next question, "Who is that He?" Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to say who is that He. If you cannot, then your knowledge is imperfect. But we say: "Here is God. Here is Kṛṣṇa, God." And those who are accepting, they are getting the benefit. So we are not presenting something fictitious. Presenting real, on the authority. Just like if I say—you are searching after spectacle—"Here is spectacle." So you test it by putting on your ear, "Yes," then it is spectacle. Similarly, we are putting "Here is God." So you try to love, and this is the process of loving Him. So if you accept everything, you will see, "Yes, I have got God." It is practical; it is not imaginary. These boys, they did not know what is God. I have simply said: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You love Him," and they are loving, and they are realizing. Yes, realizing. Now convince him that He is not God. He will never become convinced, because he has got the reality. You cannot try to deviate him: "No, no, it is not God." Do it. Any scholar, any ācārya , let him come, any yogī —he will be defeated. He has firm conviction, and he can argue, he can convince you, "Yes, here is God." (to devotee) Is it not? If somebody challenges it that "Kṛṣṇa is not God," then what you will say? If somebody says that you have accepted a false God, then what you will say? You will give up Kṛṣṇa, or what you will do? *Revatīnandana: We get out the Bhagavad*-gītā we fight. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: No. He may say: "I do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ." Then what you will do? Revatīnandana: Challenge his authority. "If you don't accept our authority, what is your authority?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to ask that, "You present what is God. You present what is God." If he says: "I do not know," then, "You accept my God. You do not know. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God. You said this is not spectacle. So that means you must know what is spectacle. And if you cannot present, then what is the value of your saying it is not? You present counter God, and you prove that he is God. In the absence of your perfect knowledge in God, then you accept my God, what I am presenting. Because you have no knowledge; you are admitting. So you take the knowledge from me, authorized knowledge. It is not my whimsical knowledge." So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are presenting: "Here is God—love Him. Your life will be perfect." And anyone who is doing that, he is coming to the perfectional point. Just like if I give a plate of, prasādam , you take it. You are hungry: "Take: here is food." You take it, you will understand, "Yes, my hunger is satisfied. I am getting strength." You don't require certificate from others. Similarly, if I present, "Here is God; You love Him," and immediately the certificate will be. He will perceive, "Yes, here is God." Exactly in the same way: if you are eating, if it is actual food, and if you are hungry, then use the food; you will feel strength, satisfaction of hunger, and you will say: "No, no. I don't want any more food. This is all right." Similarly, when you begin to love Kṛṣṇa, then you will understand, "Yes, here is God." Nobody will be required to give proof that He is God. You will understand that He is God. So we are doing that service. You are searching after God: "Take; here is God. Now love Him." What do you think? Is it not our process? Revatīnandana: Yes. It is. *Prabhupāda: This is process. "Here is God. Take Him." Vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma*-bhaktau (Bs. 5.33). You cannot search out God by reading so many books and literature, but a devotee can deliver it: "Take God. Here is God." That is devotee's prerogative. "Here is God. Take delivery, direct." Otherwise you go on searching many, many lives. Therefore it is said: (knock on door) Prabhupāda: (answering) Yes? Haṁsadūta: Come in. Prabhupāda: Yes? Oh. So this is the process. You have to approach somebody who knows God, and he can deliver you God: "Take. Here is God." That is the method. Otherwise, God cannot be searched out. God is not so cheap thing. Therefore there are so many scholars, philosophers, they are talking of all nonsense about God. Actually they do not believe in God. Haṁsadūta: Just talk. Prabhupāda: Just talk. Simply waste of time. Vikatthante . The exact word used in *Bhāgavatam* , vikatthante : talking all nonsense. Vikatthante . So God is there. You can realize God, provided you come to the right channel, right process. That's all. Now this lady, she always says that, "Now I have got the thing." So she is elderly lady, educated and everything. She was searching after God. Now she is thinking, "Yes, I have got God," and she is very enthusiastic to serve God. (pause) You are following which religion, Mrs. Sanjivin? Mrs. Sanzoni: I am Christian. Prabhupāda: Christian. That's nice. So Christian religion has got conception of God. Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is the actual feature of God. Is it not? Do you know? What is your conception of God? In Christian religion, they accept there is God, because Christ is son of God. So what is your conception of God? Mrs. Sanzoni: Creator. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: Creator, she said. Prabhupāda: Creator. So He must be a person. Is it not? Creator. I have created this table, then I am a person; I have got brain; I have got hands how to work. So as soon as you say creator, then He must be a person. Is it not? Hmm? No clear idea. As soon as you say "creator," is He not a person? So have you seen that person? Or have you seen His pictures or the description of the body? Just like we sometimes see the picture, here is the man who has created this table. Similarly, if the creator is a person, we must have a vision of that person. Otherwise it is imperfect knowledge. I have heard that there is a queen, but if I have seen the picture also, then it is more perfect "The queen is like this." Therefore in every stamp, every paper, the queen's picture is there, so that people may not forget that, "Queen is a person, and here is the photograph." Otherwise why so much advertisement? Let her remain as person in her Buckingham Palace. Why she is advertised in so many ways? And she comes also out of the Buckingham Palace and sees you and talks with you. Similarly, if God is a person, we have to learn how to seen Him, how to talk with Him, how to appreciate Him, how to love Him, the next question is. Simply to have a conception that God is creator, that is not perfect knowledge. Do you admit it or not? Mrs. Sanzoni: (indistinct) . . . who is God? Prabhupāda: Who is God? Yes, that is my question. So if you have knowledge of God, you must say who is God. As you say "creator," I say: "Who is that creator?" So you have to describe, otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Is it not? Mrs. Sanzoni: I'm so sorry, I thought I asked the question. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: She wants to ask you the question—who is God? Prabhupāda: Yes, that we have already explained: Kṛṣṇa. Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. His picture is here. That picture is there. There are so many pictures showing He is God— *Kṛṣṇa Book* and this. So many. Here is God. You see? Mrs. Sanzoni: I think it's a book. Prabhupāda: It is book? It is not knowledge? Mrs. Sanzoni: It's knowledge—but in a book. Prabhupāda: So how you can know God? In the air, do you think? Everything we have to know. Why this professor is there? He teaches his student from the air? Do you think like that? How he teaches? Professor, how do you teach? Professor Lewcock: Yes, we teach from the books and ideas Prabhupāda: Through books. So why do you say this is book? This is knowledge. "This is book" means imperfect knowledge. This is knowledge. You have to learn from the professor, from the right man; *then you get the knowledge. śāstra*-cakṣusā . This is the definition in the Vedas , that your eyes should be śāstra , or the books. That is your eyes. These eyes have no value. It is useless. As soon as the light is gone, your eyes' value of eyes gone, immediately. What is the value of your eyes? You have to hear from the right person. That is knowledge. If you want to see God, if you want to touch God, that is not possible in this condition. You have to hear about God. And that hearing is there. Therefore it is called śruti. Śruti means the hearing process, śravaṇam , hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), to hear about the Lord. So these are the imperfect knowledge, that when we give you book of knowledge you say it is book. So book is the source of knowledge. Therefore it is said that you have to surrender to a person. I give you knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. You say: "Oh, it is book." That means you have no surrender; you think that I am giving something else. Therefore the first process is if you want to know something, you must approach to a suitable person where you can surrender: "Yes. Whatever he says, I will accept." Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself on the standard that you know everything, you can examine everything, then you cannot make progress. Mrs. Sanzoni: If one cannot read this book? Prabhupāda: One can hear. Therefore I say hear. Just like you are hearing. If you cannot read, that doesn't matter, but you hear from the right person. Blind man cannot see, but that does not mean he cannot walk, because the ear is there. His father calls him, "My dear boy, come here." So he cannot see his father, but he goes there. So it does not mean that because he cannot see, but because he was not educated, the knowledge is stopped. No. The real knowledge comes from the aural reception. You hear. Book is meant for hearing. Unless you hear in this book, there is no use. (aside) You can give her that. (pause) What is that verse? Pradyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Prabhupāda: Oh, that is already explained. Professor Lewcock: Master, you explained that the material world is imperfect, or illusion, even though. But presumably devotees who have followed the path of spiritual enlightenment for long enough have reached a state which is very little imperfect—it's hardly imperfect at all. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: No. You cannot expect, when a student is admitted in your college, you cannot expect him that he has become perfect. Professor Lewcock: No. Prabhupāda: But because he is studying, because he is continuing the studies, then he will be perfect. Similarly, in our institution it is not that all our students are perfect, but because they are following the rules and regulation and struggling, they will be perfect. Just like the example is given that a girl is married. So every girl wants some child, but if she thinks, "Now I am married, I must have immediately child," that is not possible. But because she is married, because there is husband, there must be a child. That is there. And if she thinks, "Oh, I am married. Where is my child?" that is not possible. You have to wait. But because there is husband and you are wife, there must be child. This is going on. So similarly, when we admit a student and they follow regulative principles, you must get realization one day—today or tomorrow. Professor Lewcock: Do they get it only after a series of transmigrations? *Prabhupāda: No. In this life. Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out that: In this life. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: That's it. You simply understand Kṛṣṇa and you are immediately promoted. You haven't got to wait for next birth. But if you do not complete your studies to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to wait. You must finish the business. So if you are serious, you can finish their business, understanding Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after giving up this body you enter back to home, back to Godhead. That depends on my endeavor. One student passes in one examination; another student does not pass even three examination. It is like that. If you become serious that, "In this life I shall have thorough understanding of Kṛṣṇa and finish it, and next life I shall go directly to Kṛṣṇa," that is possible. It is said there, tyaktvā dehaṁ —immediately after giving up this body, immediately soul is transferred to the spiritual world. Professor Lewcock: And many devotees are able to achieve this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everyone can achieve, provided they endeavor seriously. Not many—everyone. The same example: everyone can pass the examination on the first appearance. Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if somebody is neglectful, then he does not pass. It is question of seriousness. Otherwise, everyone can pass in the first examination. Where is the difficulty? So therefore that opportunity is here in the human form of life, that in this human form of life we can stop the repetition of transmigration from one body to another. If he finishes this Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, immediately next life he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if he does not finish, if he gets another body—it doesn't matter; one does not know what kind of body he is going to get—then this opportunity is missing. This opportunity, the advanced consciousness, is missing. Therefore we should utilize properly our advanced consciousness to understand God and then go back to Him. That is the mission of human life. And if we waste our life like cats and dogs, that is a risky business. The cats and dogs, they are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, or God. They are interested eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. That's all. So if we simply use our this valuable life simply like cats and dogs—eating, sleeping, sex life and defense—they are missing the opportunity. Our propaganda is that "Don't miss this opportunity. You take advantage of this life and try to understand Kṛṣṇa, God, and go back to Him, so you become relieved from this repetition of birth and death." But people do not understand that there is birth after . . . there is life after death. They do not understand. Therefore he has to become a student and learn from these books and prepare for the next life; then everything is all right. You are following what I say? Mrs. Sanzoni: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what you are going to do in this life? You shall miss the opportunity or take the opportunity? That is in our hands. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, we do," Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru —the independence is given. God has given us independence: "If you want to remain in this illusory material world, you remain, and struggle for existence, but if you want to come to Me, where I am, come on." So there is no fault on the part of God. It is our fault. Professor Lewcock: Yes Prabhupāda: Yes. (to devotee) Where is Śivānanda now? Haṁsadūta: He is in Berlin. In Berlin. Prabhupāda: Berlin. And she? Where she lives? Haṁsadūta: Hamburg. Prabhupāda: With you? Haṁsadūta: No, she is staying with her parents. Prabhupāda: So you are chanting? *Vṛndā*-devī: No, I stopped . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Why you stopped? If you did not like Śivānanda, why you did not like chanting? *Vṛndā*-devī: Pardon? Revatīnandana: (repeating Śrīla Prabhupāda's question) He said if you did not like Śivānanda, why you did not like chanting at least? *Vṛndā*-devī: Oh. I couldn't believe anymore in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What do you believe? What is your belief now? You did not believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is all right, but what do you believe now? *Vṛndā*-devī: I don't know what to say. I believe that . . . Prabhupāda: You believe in eating and sleeping, that is all? *Vṛndā*-devī: I believe that there's something that's greater than I, that I don't understand, but . . . (indistinct) . . . function in the movement. So I left. Prabhupāda: Then do you believe in something now or not? Haṁsadūta: She said that she believes that there is something greater than she is, but she doesn't understand what that thing is. And she thought she couldn't have . . . find that understanding in . . . Prabhupāda: How she will understand that? Haṁsadūta: How will you understand it? *Vṛndā*-devī: I haven't thought of a very definite way of trying. I haven't met anyone else who could really . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not believe very seriously. You do it conveniently. That is your position. You believe something greater, but you are not serious about it, because you do not know what is that greater. *Vṛndā*-devī: Well, I think that . . . (indistinct) . . . couldn't understand what was the way to . . . Prabhupāda: But that you could not. That you could not. You have no idea what is greater than Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You simply rejected one. Just like a man is serving somewhere, and he resigns that post. And if somebody asks him, "What next post you have got?" "No, I have none," then what is the gain? Huh? If you leave some post, "Oh, it is not very nice," then you must get another post which is very nice. But if somebody asks you that, "You have left this post. What you have got next?" "No, that I do not know," then what is your gain? You have left something, but in exchange you must get something very nice. But if you haven't got that, then what is the use of leaving this? That is the way when you go forward—you step like this. So when you step, and you are confident that, "Now my foot is in ground," then you take it. Then again. This is the way. So if you are uncertain, then how you can you make progress? That means you are standstilled. And that is not good. If you think that there is something better, then you must take it. *Vṛndā*-devī: I'm looking for it but . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very difficult for me to understand myself, because with my own power. I have to wait until it comes from somewhere else. Prabhupāda: It will drop. You will not try, it will come and drop—that is not possible. Find out what you think is something better—otherwise, what is the use of leaving something? You don't think Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is very good? You don't think? *Vṛndā*-devī: I wouldn't say that it is not good, but . . . Prabhupāda: You said something better you want. That means that you say it is not good, that you think like that. Otherwise how do you say "Something better"? *Vṛndā*-devī: Not something better, something that I can . . . that is not too much demand, I thought it was, that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: Too difficult. Revatīnandana: It was too much demand and too much sacrifice required. Prabhupāda: In Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You want something cheap. Yes? That is your idea? *Vṛndā*-devī: I wouldn't call it cheap. Prabhupāda: God is not so cheap. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa tyāgena (SB 6.1.13). These are the process one has to go, undergo. Just like Lord Jesus Christ, he understood God. How much tapasya he had gone through? At the end he had to sacrifice his life, crucified. So if you want to know God, it is not so very easy thing. If you think this is difficult, something cheap you want, God is not so cheap. You have to take some difficult task to understand God. *Vṛndā*-devī: I agree with that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not possible. You can see from the example, those who realized—Lord Jesus Christ, how much difficulties he had to undergo—austerity, from the very beginning of his life. He went to India and so many places, then he had to face so many dangers. So it is not cheap thing. *Vṛndā*-devī: Yes, but as some more doubt came in, because . . . Prabhupāda: No. First of all you must be prepared to undergo all the difficulties. If you think it is very difficult, difficult it is . . . anything you want. Suppose you want to pass M.A. examination. Does it mean that you'll, simply sitting, you will pass the examination? You have to take some difficult task. Everything. Without labor, without difficulties, you cannot achieve anything higher. That is not possible. Easygoing is not good. Easygoing is for the animals—eat, sleep, drink and die. That is easy going life— cats and dogs. They, whatever their capacity is there for eating, sleeping and little sex life and little defending, that is all. They do not know anything more. So for human life we should not be so easy going. Human life is meant for tapasya . That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* : *This life, it is not . . . this human form of life is not meant for easy going life, hogs and dogs. Yes. Why hogs? This name is mentioned: viḍ*-bhujāṁ . The hogs, their life is eating stool, and they have got the power to get physical strength by eating stool. Stool is medically full of hypophosphites. So they get good much quantity of hypophosphite, therefore hog very quickly becomes strong, aggressive. They are eating actually chemically nice food. (laughter) And as soon as the body is little fatty and strong, then sex impulse is agitated. And they have got free sex impulse. The hog does not care whether mother or daughter or nothing. You see? So this facility, eating stool and having sex life with anyone, they are thinking they are very nice. They are thinking, "I am very nicely situated." This is not meant for the human life—eating very nice, getting hypophosphite and having sex agitation very nice, to enjoy. That's all. Finish. That is not human life. That is hog's life. *Vṛndā*-devī: (indistinct) . . . undergoing austerities. One is not accustomed . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So find out that point. But this easy going life is hog's life. Is it not? Hog is also thinking that, "I am very satisfied." Therefore śāstra says that the human life is not to be spoiled like hog's life. This therefore this very name given— viḍ*-bhujāṁ. This life is meant for tapasya . (break) (aside) So you want to give them prasāda ? Revatīnandana: Actually, they will be right now preparing us some plates, so . . . Prabhupāda: So how do you think of our philosophy? Professor Lewcock: I think it is very impressive. It's a great honor to hear you explaining it so clearly. Prabhupāda: It is authorized, scientific. Professor Lewcock: You're very direct, simple. And I like the living the other things that you've said. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Professor Lewcock: I think it is very true. The person who does not spend time endeavoring to experience, or is not doing anything worthwhile in their lives . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, God has created us . . . so He has created our food also. Just like a man is criminal, and the government has put him into the jail; that does not mean he will starve. He will get food there. Similarly, although we are in this material world, the food arrangement is there. We can take it from the lower creatures, just as the hog, he is also eating. He has no . . . nothing to bother where he shall get, the food is there. Any bird, beast, beginning from ant to the elephant, there is food for everyone. So I am human being; I am also one of them. If the elephant can get his food and the ant can get his food and the hog can get, why I shall not get my food? This is common sense. So why shall I embarrass myself for my food so much? This is human consciousness. Let me utilize my energy for understanding God. This is real human life. Food is there. If the God has provided food for the hogs and dogs and ants and elephants, why not for me? Practically we take meal in every center, fifty to two hundred men. So we have no problem how we shall eat, neither we are doing any business or profession. No. We go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and try to sell our literature. That is also for propagation. So God is supplying our food. That much faith we must have. So God has provided food for everyone, why not for me? I have dedicated my life for God, and I shall starve? Is there any reason? If God has provided food for everyone—even nondevotees, birds, beasts, ants, everyone—and I have dedicated my whole life for God, and I shall starve? No. They must get somewhere. Therefore my business is to save time for searching out food; better employ that time for understanding God. This is called tapasya—tapo divyaṁ . This is called tapasya. Divyaṁ. Divyaṁ means "for the Supreme." This is the only business of human being, that he should be satisfied with bodily comfort as much God gives. That much. He should not endeavor for betterment. Our students all say—we can lie down on the floor. Actually we have no furniture; we lie down on the floor. But if God gives us a nice place, we don't deny it also. Just like this building is given by George Harrison. So we were in a small building—that building is also still there, 7 Bury Place—and now He has given a big place. God has given. God has inspired him, so we don't deny it. "All right." But if He says that, "You go away," we can go away, because we know if we go away from this place we will get another place. God has provided. That much belief we have got. So there is no difficulty for these things—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So we are trying to save time simply to understand God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other business. So we are writing books, we are preaching, everything, whatever there—selling books—only for propagating God consciousness. So many people send us money: "Sir, you are doing very nice work. You are spreading God consciousness. Here is my little contribution." God sends. So we have no economic difficulty. Our expenditure is very, very heavy. Yes. So people can practically see. They will complain so many difficulties. As soon as we shall say: "Why don't you come and live with us here in this nice building?" that he'll not do. He'll go away. So what we can do? We are prepared to receive anyone, everyone: "Come on, live with us." No. He or she wants something better. What better place one can get? Such a nice atmosphere, nice all big building, nice prasādam . Still, what better? Professor Lewcock: But the people who have to work in order to keep other people happy with food and the necessities of their life, you believe that they can simply work in their spare time towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You don't believe that everybody should give up their work in order to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole time? Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say that. You work, but you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our philosophy. You remain in your position; it doesn't matter. But you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like I explained to you, that it may be any religion you profess; it does not matter. We want that whether you have learned what is God and how to love Him. That is all. Similarly, you remain in your position but become God conscious; then your life will be successful. This is our propaganda. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you give up your job, your position, you become a sannyāsī or you become this or that. No. We don't say that. We simply say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Try to understand God and love Him. (break) Professor Lewcock: . . . build a temple. You have a temple being built downstairs, and there is one in the grounds. And how much time will your devotees spend in prayer in the temple? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four hours. *Professor Lewcock: I see. You would like the temple to be in use twenty*-four hours? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are engaged twenty*-four hours, from morning four o'clock to ten o'clock at night. Then we go to rest for five to six hours. Then again our begins. After all, we have got this body; there must be some rest. But if we can work without taking rest, that also we accept. Professor Lewcock: And physical discipline you regard as just one path to . . . for spiritual enlightenment? Prabhupāda: That is our only aim, how to become . . . Professor Lewcock: Yes, but there are many paths. There are many paths. There's the path of spiritual understanding, there is the path of bhakti , and then there's the path of discipline. *Prabhupāda: Just like I have told you that the ultimate issue there is nothing but spiritual. So why not try for the spiritual? That will include everything. Ultimately you have to realize spiritual. And everything is spiritual. So there may be different names, but there is a process to understand. We have to follow that process. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā , that two energies—material energy and spiritual energy—both of them coming from God. Just heat and light coming from the sun, similarly both the energies coming from Kṛṣṇa. But . . . (knock on door) Yes? . . . one is superior and the other is inferior. (devotees enter with prasādam ) So take little prasāda . (break) Professor Lewcock: No living thing is killed. You do not eat eggs? Do you regard eggs as life? Prabhupāda: No, we don't take fish, eggs, meat. Professor Lewcock: Ah, you don't eat eggs at all? Prabhupāda: Yes. We actually eat what Kṛṣṇa eats. If Kṛṣṇa eats eggs, then we can eat it. But He does not eat. (laughter) Our policy is we do not eat anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. If Kṛṣṇa said: "Give Me meat," then we shall eat meat. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ (BG 9.26). We have no responsibility. Professor Lewcock: I see, yes. Prabhupāda: Even those who are vegetarian, they are also . . . they have also responsibility for being punished, for being punished, because vegetable has got life. Professor Lewcock: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be punished. Professor Lewcock: I see. Prabhupāda: You cannot kill anyone, either vegetable or man or . . . Professor Lewcock: I see. So here you have rice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rice is not killing the tree. Professor Lewcock: Not killing it. Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: We do not kill. And even we kill, we can kill for Kṛṣṇa. So we have no responsibility. If you ask me to kill somebody, then you are responsible. Just like you kill one snake with a stick, the stick is not responsible. Professor Lewcock: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: You are responsible. (chuckles) Similarly, we are simply stick, instrument in the hands of Kṛṣṇa. Whatever He does, we try to assist Him. That is all. So we have no responsibility. We are free. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājāṁ (Bs. 5.54). Those who are devotee, they are not bound up by any karma . So our position is very safe. Suppose a father maintains his children. The father may do something criminal for getting the money, but the children are not responsible. It is a crude example. The father will be responsible. The father also will not say that, "For you I have not become responsible." Father will never say. So Kṛṣṇa can do anything and everything, as He likes. He is supreme power. So we take protection of Kṛṣṇa, so we have no responsibility. Our only responsibility is that we fully depend on Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Professor Lewcock: Master, how many devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Neither we try to find out something better than Kṛṣṇa. That we don't try. We are finally taken. There cannot be anything better than Kṛṣṇa. Take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and be satisfied. That's all. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very simple thing. And Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. Kṛṣṇa is the master of all mystic power. So our endeavor is not in vain. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo (BG 18.78). Yātrā, śrī, vijaya —everything. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is way sublime. One has to learn it only—if he is fortunate. Otherwise he will not be able to learn it. If he is duṣkṛtino , sinful, he will not be able to understand. Professor Lewcock: Master, how many thousands of devotees of Kṛṣṇa consciousness are there? Prabhupāda: That is very difficult to say. So suppose I am talking to you for the last more than one hour; you have not become my devotee. So we have to spend gallons of blood to make a devotee; therefore we cannot expect many number. Professor Lewcock: No. *Prabhupāda: You have to talk like this for years, then one becomes a devotee. So we cannot expect a very large number. That is not possible. But if we can make one man devotee, then we think our preaching attempt is successful. Yes. It doesn't matter—one. We don't want many. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tāra*-sahasrasaḥ —one moon is sufficient; there is no need of millions of stars. What is the use if one does not understand? If one understands, that is sufficient. He'll make many others. That is our policy. But we cannot expect a large number. That is not possible. Still, we have got many thousands. But they are very rigid. Solid. Yes. Professor Lewcock: Yes. But the movement is growing. Is the movement growing rather fast now? Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everything there is, but still people do not come. (laughter) Everything fine. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful. Kṛṣṇa's service is so nice. Kṛṣṇa's prasādam is so nice. Kṛṣṇa's devotees are so nice. Everything nice—cent percent. But still people deny it. The same thing, that the hog, he is satisfied by eating stool, but if he is given nice halavā , he'll refuse. Hog taste. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Last night we went home in the car, Mr. Schumacher and Mr. Papworth. So I went with them to talk. I thought I could engage them perhaps in some way. So Mr. Schumacher was complaining that even to live in a house and a little garden will require so much money. It is such a problem just for his children to have a garden. He was complaining. So I said: "Well, we've got this nice place, nice garden. We are not having any trouble. You just come and bring your family. Immediately you can come." And from that point he argued all the way home. He found this fault, that fault, next fault. He would not take. Then the argument began. Haṁsadūta: I was told that if you ask a rickshaw man in Calcutta that, "Just come with us. We will give you some clothing, we will give you some food, nice place to live you; just have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," he will say no. Prabhupāda: Not interested. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: He'd rather pull the rickshaw. Prabhupāda: Actually it so happened one . . . long ago. One man, one servant, he lost his job, so he approached one gentleman—he was a devotee—"Sir, I have lost . . . if can you give me." So he said that "At present I don't require any servant. Anyway, you are in trouble, so you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," and he was a devotee, "and I will give you the payment, whatever . . . you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So after three, four days he could not find out the man. Then he thought that he might have got some service. But "How is that? He did not say anything like that." So after three, four years he met him again. So when he narrated this story, that "You came here. I wanted to give you the payment, so why did you go away?" "Sir, it was very difficult. To chant Hare Kṛṣṇa all day night was just impossible." (laughter) Although the payment was there, he said it was impossible. "Therefore I went away." "Therefore I went away." Yes. He will whole day work, pull on the rickshaw, and still he will not accept to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. The same example: if you tell the hog that "Why you are rotting in this way? Come on, I shall give you daily halavā ," "No, sir. I cannot go. I have got so much responsibility." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ei rupe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151): only the fortunate man can get to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Bhāgyavān means "fortunate." *So without being fortunate one cannot accept, even you give all facilities. That is the difficulty. So we give chance people to become bhāgyavān , fortunate, by preaching, going door to door, vibrating Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , so that the unfortunate can become also fortunate one day. This is preaching. Otherwise, if people accept it immediately, there is no difficulty. But he is so unfortunate they will not accept. Therefore we have to create his fortune by forcing him to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . This is preaching. Mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). So we have to create him a little devotee; then he'll come follow us. So you take that little, you are read . . . (referring to previous discussion) And what he settled then? He is not coming? Revatīnandana: No. We argued all the way. After that he found more faults. *Prabhupāda: Must be engaged in shoe*-making. (laughter) That is very good. And without working he'll get nice food—that is not required. Better shoe-maker. Revatīnandana: Mr. Papworth is more . . . Mr. Papworth, he is coming. He is attracted. *Prabhupāda: And the shoe*-maker (Schumacher) will also be attracted. Revatīnandana: Not after we got home. We had a big argument. There were so many things. It will be some time . . . Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent man; he can argue with them. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says fortunate—only the fortunate man can accept. Mrs. Sanzoni: Do you have many devotees in India? Prabhupāda: All Indians. Mrs. Sanzoni: All . . . all across India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You don't know that? Mrs. Sanzoni: Yes, I guessed so, but you know . . . Prabhupāda: Even though they are not Hindus, they are also Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mrs. Sanzoni: Anyone who is conscious of God? Prabhupāda: No—Kṛṣṇa practically. There are many Muhammadans, they observe Kṛṣṇa's birthday ceremony. Many Christians, many Muhammadans all over the world, they accept Kṛṣṇa. (break) What is his argument, that he does not like to come here? *Revatīnandana: Well, it was a gradual development. First the reporter, he asked me what do I think of this Guru Maharaj*-ji. And I said: "Well, we think he is a demon." So they didn't like that. So then I proved it. They argued, "Oh . . ." So the reporter argued. So I gave him five, six reasons why he is a demon, and he couldn't say anything. So then Schumacher said, "Well that is all right, but what about some really great saint, like Ramakrishna?" Prabhupāda: Another demon. (laughter) Revatīnandana: So I had to, er, say that, "Well, we cannot accept him as incarnation of God, and we cannot accept his philosophy, that any path will take you to God, that you can eat anything, you can do anything, if you believe this or that; whatever you believe you will come to God." I said: "We cannot accept that." Oh, he didn't like that, you know. Prabhupāda: Because he is of that nature. Revatīnandana: Yes, that all religions are the same—this is his philosophy. So . . . and he made the assertion that at least you must accept that the four main religions—he said Christianity, Hinduism, Muhammadanism and Buddhism . . . Prabhupāda: No, we accept any religion. But we want to see that whether has become a lover of God. That's all. Revatīnandana: Well, he said: "So they are all the same teaching," he said. So I had to say: "Well actually Buddhist teaching is not the same." Then it turns out that he is big expert on Buddhism. So he said: "Oh, it is identical." So I said: "Well, for instance, Christ calls God the father; means God is a person. But Buddha spoke of . . . would not speak of God; he spoke only of a negation of the material, something void." Prabhupāda: Zero. Revatīnandana: Zero, void. He said: "Well, that's only symbols. The words are only so many symbols, but the teaching is the same." I said: "But actually the symbols are different; the teaching is different." He said, "Oh, you are very intolerant." He got very . . . he began to get upset. So it went on for some time. It was a long drive. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . speaking that ultimately you go back to home, back to Godhead, and you live there peacefully, eternal life, and somebody says ultimately you will become zero. So there is no comparison? Everything is all right? Both of them are the same? How can you say? I am giving you something tangible idea, and you are saying that the ultimate is zero. So both of them are the same? How one reasonable man can think of it? If I am promising somebody that, "You come to me; I shall give you good salary," and somebody promises, "Yes, come to me. I shall give you zero," the same thing? Any sane man will say now both the same? Zero and good situation is the same? How is that? Revatīnandana: Actually, when he was saying that I made a very bad social mistake. I said: "If we say that all these teachings are the same, but clearly there are so many different things," I said: "it will only indicate soft intelligence." I didn't mean directly him, but actually I didn't think . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I did mean . . . oh, he got very upset. "Oh, I have got soft intelligence!" Oh, he was very angry then. So then I had to apologize so many things. (laughing) But actually it is. If there is unity, it is on the principle that we are the eternal servants of God. So that . . . wherever that principle is found, that is the beginning of unity. But he would agree, but then he could not see that if God is a person then you can serve Him; if God is not a person, you cannot serve Him. Prabhupāda: Soft intelligence. Revatīnandana: It's very difficult. But I think that Mr. Papworth is a . . . he was listening, and finally when he left he smiled at me and shook my hand and he went into his house. He's coming back. Prabhupāda: If they say God is creator, He must be a person. Where you get the conception the creator is zero? How do you say that? Professor Lewcock: Well, the Buddhists believe that there is no God . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi . That is our daily prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi*-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe —to deliver the Western world from this impersonalism and voidism. Impersonalism, also voidism. It is describing in a different way. (end) Interview -- August 6, 1973, London (Interview with Reporters) Reporter: You're just over here for a visit, are you? Or are you staying here? Do you intend to stay here? Prabhupāda: If you allow me. Reporter: Well, is there any problem about that, then? Prabhupāda: Yes, because your immigration department is very strict nowadays. Reporter: So they only allow you a visitor's permit, then. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am a visitor. Although I am proprietor of so many temples . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . still I am a visitor in my temple. Reporter: So you're just a visitor, but you want to stay here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: You want to stay here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Permanently? Prabhupāda: Can you help me? Reporter: Oh, I don't know. I'm just a newspaperman. Prabhupāda: Then why are you asking me? Reporter: Well, because I'm interested. I wanted to know whether you would be here . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . just for a visit . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . or whether you were here . . . Prabhupāda: England . . . Reporter: . . . permanently. Prabhupāda: England, especially London, is the most important city in the world, so there are many nice people here. I very much like to talk with them. So if I am allowed to stay here, I can stay and make friendship with nice people here. That's all. Reporter: Yes. When did you arrive? When did you arrive in England? Prabhupāda: (to Haṁsadūta) . . . (indistinct) . . . you can reply. *Haṁsadūta: Umm, about couple of weeks ago. Just before Ratha*-yātrā. Seventh of July? Prabhupāda: Seventh? Haṁsadūta: Seventh of July. Reporter: July seventh. From India. From India. Haṁsadūta: From Calcutta. Reporter: And you've had this, uh, this house since May. Is that right? Haṁsadūta: Since May. Yes Reporter: And George Harrison of the Beatles bought this house for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: How did you get to know George Harrison? Prabhupāda: Well, I am a mendicant. I travel all over the world. Reporter: You're a what? Haṁsadūta: Mendicant. Prabhupāda: Mendicant. Reporter: Yeah. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So people come to me. That is my profession. Reporter: Well, where did you meet Harrison, then? Prabhupāda: In here. I first met him here. Reporter: In London? Prabhupāda: Here in London, 1968. Reporter: 'Cause he had another juru didn't he? He had, um, what was his name? The Maharishi. The, the old gentleman with the beard. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a good boy. He is searching after some spiritual enlightenment. That's very good idea. Reporter: Yeah, but he used to . . . Prabhupāda: And he found Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as genuine. Reporter: (to devotees) So, uh, I'm sorry. When did he say he met George Harrison? In 196 . . .? Devotees: '68. In London. Reporter: 1968. But . . . but George Harrison went to India, and he was, uh, he met there the main Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Prabhupāda: I do not know that. But I have heard it. Reporter: You've heard it, yeah. He's the gentleman with the big beard. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. How is it that he got . . . I mean, if he had one Maharishi juru , guru , whatever you call yourselves, if he had one, why does he need two? Prabhupāda: Well, guru we can make many, for learning many things. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: But he can stick to one. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like in the Western countries, the girls, they meet many boys. At last she selects one. (chuckling) Reporter: Mm. Did he give this house to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Do you pay anything for it at all? Prabhupāda: Uh? Reporter: Do you pay him anything for it at all? Prabhupāda: Well, where is money I shall pay? Reporter: Sorry? Prabhupāda: Where is money I shall pay? Reporter: When you get it, you'll pay for it, will you? Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhajahari: Where is the money? He says he hasn't any. Prabhupāda: You asked me . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . whether I paid anything. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But where is my money? Reporter: Haven't you got any? Śrutikīrti: Doesn't have any money. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: I am a mendicant. *Reporter: So you live here. This is a . . . is it right, fifty*-five rooms in this place? Fifty-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And what are you going to do with them all? Prabhupāda: Oh, you are welcome. Come and live with us. Reporter: How many people live here now? Prabhupāda: About fifty people. Not less than. Reporter: Fifty people living here. Haṁsadūta: At least. Reporter: That's ladies and, uh . . . Haṁsadūta: Ladies, yes. Prabhupāda: Ladies separately. Gentlemen separately. Reporter: And what do they do all day? Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Reporter: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, and eating prasādam , foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: And eating what? Prabhupāda and Devotee: Prasādam . *Haṁsadūta: Prasādam. P-r-a-s*-a . . . *Reporter: P-r-a-s*-a . . . *Haṁsadūta: . . . d*-a-m *Reporter: . . . d*-a-m Haṁsadūta: Prasādam . It is spiritual food, or food offered to Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Well what's spirit . . . what, what's, what is it, spiritual food? Haṁsadūta: It is all vegetarian foodstuffs prepared and then offered to Kṛṣṇa. It becomes spiritual. It is called prasādam . Prabhupāda: You can say that we don't eat meat. Haṁsadūta: Yes. We don't . . . we follow four principles very strictly. We, all our students, they do not eat any meat, fish or eggs. That means we don't kill animals—no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxicants—they take not even tea or cigarettes or coffee. Reporter: Not even tea, cigarettes or coffee. Haṁsadūta: No tea, coffee, cigarettes. Nothing. No intoxication. And they are . . . no illicit sex life. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And they don't gamble. No gambling. These are our four restrictions. Reporter: Now you are, your . . . some of your young men are getting the hall ready for a temple. Is that right? I just saw them. Haṁsadūta: They are preparing the hall downstairs for a temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be used for temple. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Wherever we stay, that is a temple. Reporter: Yes. Yeah. Prabhupāda: We have got so many temples. This is the picture of our Los Angeles temple. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: In Los Angeles. Reporter: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: On the . . . on the twenty*-first of this month, twenty-first and twenty-second, there will be a big ceremony, an installation, a Deity installation ceremony. I think it mentions in, in your . . . Reporter: Yeah, yeah. But apart from eating and chanting, what else do you do here? You sleep in the afternoons, do you? Prabhupāda: No. We have got so many books. There is class. We have got . . . show him the books. Reporter: But you sleep in the afternoon, do you? You've just . . . I'm told you've just woken up. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't sleep at night. I sleep some time in daytime. Reporter: What do you do at night, then? Prabhupāda: I write books. Haṁsadūta: He writes these books. Prabhupada has written more than fifteen big books like this. You can look at them. Prabhupāda: He can note down my books. They are selling . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: Like to have a look at them. Reporter: Yeah. And do your people go up to the West End chanting and collecting money? Do they? Do they go from here? Are they the people one sees in the West End? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Collecting money by selling books. Reporter: Yeah, but these are the people that one sees in Oxford Street. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: They come from here. Bhajahari: We also have a center there, in the West End. Reporter: Yeah. But what I, you know, you've got fifty people here. How many . . . what sort of . . . are they . . . Prabhupāda: They go with books outside, and they chant, and anyone likes, he can purchase our books. Our main source of income is by selling books. All over the world we are selling books, about $300 per day. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: In our center here. Prabhupāda: All center. Reporter: How much do you need to keep this place going? I mean, how do you live here? How much money do you need a week to keep this . . .? Prabhupāda: That I don't keep account. He knows. What . . . what must . . . how much we want. Bhajahari: At least a hundred pounds each week. Prabhupāda: Hundred pounds each week. Reporter: You can get a hundred pounds each week? Bhajahari: Yes. Reporter: Where from? Bhajahari: We have . . . just like our spiritual master was saying about selling books. Reporter: You get a hundred pounds a week selling books, do you? Bhajahari: Well, some people make donations also. Reporter: Yeah. Bhajahari: We have programs. Raise money. Prabhupāda: We have no fixed source of income. We have no fixed source of income, but we depend on Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: You're as rich as the Divine Light Church, or the little guru, the little . . .? *Bhajahari: Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Haṁsadūta: (to Prabhupāda) He wants to know if we are as rich as Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Prabhupāda: I do not know about . . . much about Guru Maharaj*-ji. (laughing) Bhajahari: We don't . . . Prabhupāda: Do you know anything about him? Reporter: Well, I know he has a very expensive motorcar, and uh . . . do you have a very expensive motorcar? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: No. Just see our expenditure is sit down on the floor, just lie down on this floor. (laughter) You are experiencing how we are luxuriously living. We cannot offer even a chair. This is our position. Reporter: But that's because you don't want chairs, though, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: That's because you don't want to have chairs, not because you can't afford chairs. Prabhupāda: No. If you offer me chair, I can sit down. Reporter: Yes, but you don't really . . . be happier sitting there, not in a chair. Haṁsadūta: Here's a chair. Prabhupāda: There is a chair. (laughter) *Reporter: Why, uh, why do you need a fifty*-five-room mansion to carry out your work? Prabhupāda: Because George has given. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we can lie down on the street. We don't deny. If you offer me another house, I can accept also. Reporter: How often do you see George? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: How often do you see George? How often he comes here? Prabhupāda: Since I have come here, he has come here twice, thrice. Reporter: Twice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Just twice? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: He arrived . . . you arrived here July, didn't he? Devotee: Yeah. Reporter: July the seventh, did we say? *Haṁsadūta: Mm*-hm. Prabhupāda: He comes along with his friends. Reporter: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sings. Reporter: He what? Prabhupāda: He is a musician; he sings, that's all. He glorifies Kṛṣṇa. His recent record, he has glorified Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Reporter: What do you think of him as a sitar player? Prabhupāda: We are not very much concerned with sitar players. Reporter: Yeah. No, no. Prabhupāda: We are concerned with the devotees. Reporter: I didn't mean that frivolously. I meant what do you think of him as a sitar player? I understand he does play the sitar . Haṁsadūta: His . . . he plays the sitar . He wants to . . . Prabhupāda: He has not played anything before me, but I know that he is a good musician, that's all. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: But he has not played anything before me. When he comes, he talks with me, that's all. Reporter: What about? Prabhupāda: About this Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yeah. You say you don't smoke cigarettes. Do you smoke anything else? Haṁsadūta: Nothing. No. Reporter: No, no. No pot or anything? *Haṁsadūta: We don't even drink Pepsi*-Cola. Bhajahari: No intoxication. Reporter: Why is that? Haṁsadūta: Because we don't take anything which is not necessary for maintaining the body and soul together. We simply take what's required. Prabhupāda: We want to live very plain and simple life. Reporter: You don't take anything that what? That doesn't require what? Bhajahari: That isn't required to keep body and soul together. Haṁsadūta: We want to live very simple. Plain living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Well I . . . I, I am surprised. So why you don't ask anything about our philosophy? You are asking ordinary things. Reporter: Well I'm coming to that, I'm coming to that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: I'm coming to that, you see. Prabhupāda: That is most important thing. Reporter: It's just that, take . . . take . . . we want to take things as we get to them, you know. Prabhupāda: These are ordinary things. Either you sit on a chair or on the floor, it doesn't matter. Reporter: Umm. It can be uncomfortable sitting on the floor, if you're not used to sitting on the floor. Prabhupāda: No, we are very comfortable. Just see. Reporter: Oh, I can go into, in London, into a Japanese restaurant. They say: "Please would you sit on the floor?" and I'll say: "No, I'm . . . don't want to sit on the floor. Very uncomfortable having my meal and sitting here for two hours." So I go to a . . . Prabhupāda: Those who are uncomfortable, we offer him chair. Yes. Reporter: I go to a part of the restaurant where they have chairs, and I'm comfortable, you see. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You must sit comfortably. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we ask gentleman who comes here, "If you want chair?" If he says: "Yes, that will be nice," we give him chair. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So if you want chair, I can give you. Reporter: Oh, no. I'm moving around all the time, you see. Reporter: It said . . . it says on this little thing—I don't know who wrote it, uh, what's his, uh . . .? Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara. Reporter: Śyāmasundara. It says here that George comes twice a week. Is that right? Or twice. Has he only been here twice? Twice a week, or does he come twice? Prabhupāda: He has come twice. Sometimes twice a . . . Śrutikīrti: He sees Śyāmasundara many times a week. Prabhupāda: Oh, he sees Śyāmasundara many times, here. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara saw him last few days. Saw him today, yesterday. Reporter: What about . . . Prabhupāda: Actually Śyāmasundara, that Śyāmasundara has induced George to take some interest in our Society. He is friend. So he . . . George may come and see him twice in a week. *Reporter: But . . . so you could live . . . you talk about wanting to live simply. You could live simply in an ordinary house, not . . . you don't necessarily need a fifty*-five-bedroom house? Prabhupāda: No. If you offer, why shall I deny it? Reporter: Why should you . . .? Prabhupāda: If you, you, just like George has . . . Devotee: Deny it. Prabhupāda: . . . given us this house . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . similarly, if you give us a house, 155 rooms, we shall accept. Immediately. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And we shall utilize it properly. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Not that we are neglecting. We are keeping. Just see, we are keeping this room very nicely, neat and clean. People come and sit down. Reporter: Were you surprised when he bought it for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Had he met you . . .? Prabhupāda: He has paid £200,000 for this house. Bhajahari: 220,000. Reporter: He has paid £220,000? Bhajahari: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside) . . . recurring charges . . .? Śrutikīrti: 220,000. Prabhupāda: 220,000. Devotees: That's right, yeah. Reporter: When did you know that he'd bought it? Did he write to you in India and tell you, or how did you know? Prabhupāda: No, Śyāmasundara talked with him. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara is George's close friend, so that was arranged between Śyāmasundara and George. Reporter: Yeah, and then, and then they told the, uh . . . Śrutikīrti: Then they told Śrīla Prabhupāda later on that they'd done it. Reporter: Yeah, and then this is why he came over the week . . . to England, because he had this center? Prabhupāda: You have seen our London center? Reporter: No, I haven't. No. *Prabhupāda: That is very, very small house, although it is five*-story. That was not suitable. Reporter: Where is that? Prabhupāda: 7 Bury Place. Śrutikīrti: 7 Bury Place. Prabhupāda: 7 Bury Place. *Bhajahari: B*-u-r-y Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. *Bhajahari: B*-u-r-y Haṁsadūta: Right behind the British Museum. Reporter: Why . . . that, that . . . that only had how many rooms? Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Bhajahari: Maybe had fifteen. Prabhupāda: Fifteen? No. Not so many. Śrutikīrti: Two rooms a floor. Prabhupāda: Not more than ten rooms. Haṁsadūta: Ten rooms, but very small rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So that wasn't very suitable? Prabhupāda: Not suitable. We were about more than fifty devotees. *Śrutikīrti: Sixty*-seven devotees. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-seven devotees. So we wanted a bigger place. So Śyāmasundara told George that if he can give us a . . . give us some money, we can purchase. So he has purchased without taking any of our money. Reporter: Without taking any . . .? Prabhupāda: Our money. Śrutikīrti: Of our money. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: We have no money. Reporter: How many people belong to your sect in . . . in Britain? I mean, not just the fifty here. Are there others? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got other centers—in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Birmingham, Dublin and . . . what other places? Bhajahari: Notting Hill Gate in London north. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So how many followers do you have? *Prabhupāda: Many followers. At least fifty men, not less than twenty*-five, in each center. Reporter: Well that could be . . . my arithmetic is not very good. How many . . . how many centers have you got? Prabhupāda: About half a dozen. Devotee: Six. Prabhupāda: Six. Reporter: So six centers of fifty men in each. *Bhajahari: No. Not less than twenty*-five. *Reporter: Not less than twenty*-five. So six fives are thirty, two sixes are twelve. That's 150. Bhajahari: Approximately. Reporter: About 150 members of your sect . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . in Britain, so far. Prabhupāda: No. We have got . . . just like George does not live with us, but he is also our . . . one of the members. Reporter: Oh, I see. Yeah. These are the people that live with you . . . Prabhupāda: Living. Reporter: There are . . . Prabhupāda: But there are many others who are living outside. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can take photograph of our temple. Down. Reporter: Oh, that's not the temple I've . . . you are preparing, you mean. Downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: From the twenty*-second August it will be regular temple room. Reporter: Have you applied to the Home Office to stay here? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: Have you applied for permission to stay? Prabhupāda: No. I am going day after tomorrow to Paris. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then I will come back again, during the ceremony. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: In this way I am coming, going. I have got so many centers. I have to visit and see how things are going on. Reporter: But you're going st . . . this'll be your headquarters, will it? Prabhupāda: Yes. In Europe it will be my headquarters. Just like in America I have got my headquarter, Los Angeles. Reporter: In Los Angeles? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: In India I have got my headquarters, Māyāpur. Reporter: Yeah. This, uh, letter, we had talks about people like Peter Sellers, Donovan, Allen Ginsberg, "Aging seeker . . ." Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg came here. He comes to see me. Reporter: What about Peter Sellers? Prabhupāda: He sees . . . Bhajahari: He's coming tomorrow. Prabhupāda: He's coming tomorrow. He sees Śyāmasundara. Śrutikīrti: He's seeing Śyāmasundara. He was staying with some of our devotees in Mexico for the last two weeks. Prabhupāda: Lord Brockway came to see me the other day. Lord Fenner Brockway. Sir Alisty . . . Bhajahari: Alistair Hardy. Prabhupāda: . . . Hardy, he likes our movement. Reporter: Who? Lord Brockway came to see you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And what is this? That Professor, Sir Alistair . . . Haṁsadūta: Sir Alistair Hardy from Oxford University. Prabhupāda: He also came. And that editor. Many gentlemen come. Bhajahari: John Papworth. Reporter: Who? Bhajahari: John Papworth, from Resurgence . Reporter: Then, well, what about people like Graham Hill? Bhajahari: Yes. He was here about ten days ago. Reporter: Well what these people do? Prabhupāda: They talk about our philosophy. Therefore I was asking why don't you talk about philosophy. Reporter: Graham Hill came, uh . . . so all these—Sir Alistair Hardy, the Bishops of Kingston and Southwark. Have you seen them? Bhajahari: They're to come in the future. Reporter: Oh, they're coming in the future? Bhajahari: After. After Śrīla Prabhupāda returns from Paris. Reporter: But Dr. Ramsey, the Archbishop, is he coming? Bhajahari: After Paris. Reporter: Dr. Arnold . . . Haṁsadūta: (to Prabhupāda) In Paris, in Paris they have a . . . the Assistant Mayor will give you an official reception to the city in City Hall when you come there on the tenth . . . on the ninth, rather. Reporter: What about Dr. Arnold Toynbee? Has he been here? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I saw him. Bhajahari: Mr. Toynbee is very . . . he can't move around very much, so Prabhupada went to visit him. Reporter: Yeah. How did they get to know about your movement? How do these people—Graham Hill and Peter Sellers and—how do they, how do you think they get to know about you? Prabhupāda: (to devotee) How did you want to . . . Bhajahari: We are propagating. All the devotees here are propagating . . . Prabhupāda: You see, any movement, if it is approved by the leading men of the society, it gets the standard. Our movement is very scientific. Therefore we want the leading men. Just like you are a journalist, we wish that you also try to understand how important this movement is. And if you think that it is actually it is important, you should help us in propagation. That is our motive. Reporter: Yeah. So the Bishops of Southwark have gotta come; they, they're coming. Dr. Ramsey's coming. Have you, have you had any . . . do you write to Dr. Ramsey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. I don't write. My assistant, they arrange meetings. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: I am . . . Reporter: He's gonna come to see you? Bhajahari: He's coming, yeah. Reporter: How do you know that? Bhajahari: Well, one boy is arranging all these meetings. Reporter: Oh, he's, yeah. I see. Now apart from eating and chanting, you must meditate, too. Do you here? Do you spend your time meditating? Prabhupāda: Meditate . . . do you know what is meditation? Reporter: Well, it's deep thought, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So we are always in meditation . . . Reporter: You're always in meditation. Prabhupāda: . . . because we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: Not that we meditate for five minutes and do nonsense twenty*-four hours. Not like that. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: We meditate twenty*-four hours. Reporter: Yeah. All the time, yeah. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. We don't make, "This is . . . this time are for meditation and this time is for slaughtering animals." We have no such thought. We meditate twenty*-four hours. That is our philosophy. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ ( CC Adi 17.31). Reporter: What about prayer? How much time do you spend in prayer? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prayer is also meditation. Reporter: Yeah, but how much time do you spend, then? *Prabhupāda: Our meditation is twenty*-four hours, in varieties of occupation. We are meditating chanting; we are meditating dancing; we are meditating eating; we are meditating preaching; we are meditating writing; we are meditating reading; *we are meditating singing. So these so*-called meditators, they close their eyes and sleep for some time—not like that. We have got our occupation, varieties, but each occupation is meditation. *Reporter: Yeah, but you get up at four*-thirty, apparently. This all starts at four-thirty, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, maṅgala-ārātrika. Offering ārātrika , reception to the Lord. *Reporter: At four*-thirty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And all fifty of you are up at that time, are you? *Haṁsadūta: Well, before that, actually. Three*-thirty, four. Ceremony is at four-thirty. Reporter: What time do you go to bed, to sleep? *Haṁsadūta: Nine*-thirty, ten. Prabhupāda: Ten. Reporter: Ten. Prabhupāda: Six hours' sleeping. Reporter: You say you have a sort of lifestyle comparison with monks in monastery? Early rising and busy day and early to bed. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Reporter: Similar. Haṁsadūta: Rising early is very important. Reporter: Now what about your philosophy, then? What is your philosophy? Let's talk about philosophy. Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is this is God's creation. Everything what you see, that is God's creation. And He has created this cosmic manifestation with a purpose. As every . . . everyone creates something with a purpose, not whimsically. So we living entities, we are also one of the creation of God. So our business is to understand what is God, what is our relationship with Him, and act accordingly. That is . . . that is our constitutional position. Reporter: Well what does that in fact mean in practice? How do you act accordingly in practice? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are acting. We are rising early in the morning, we are offering reception to God, and we are chanting His glories, we are reading about His activities. So this is our understanding what is God. And then we are trying . . . people have forgotten God. They have become animals. They are interested simply eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is animal life. Animal has no other business than these four types of activities—how to eat, animal . . . Reporter: Sleeping . . . Haṁsadūta: Eating, sleeping, defending and mating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Animals eats, animal sleeps, animals have sex life, and animal also defend from enemies. So human being, at the present moment, they are also engaged in eating, how to eat; economic condition, developing how to sleep, big, big skyscraper building; and how to have sex life, freedom of boys and girls, just like hippies, to manage sex life without any restriction, like cats and dogs. So . . . and defending also. You might have discovered atomic bomb and other scientific method for defense—that is defense only. But these business are there in animals also. So what is the special business of human being? Can you tell me? Reporter: So what . . .? Prabhupāda: These four businesses—eating, sleeping, enjoy sex life and make defense, force—so these four things are done by the animals. So you also do in a different way, in a scientific way, but the business is the same. Reporter: So what do you do? You, you eat and sleep. So what else do you do? Prabhupāda: We . . . you, you have not yet marked? Our only eating, sleeping, everything is for God. Reporter: Yeah, but what else do . . . Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Reporter: Yeah, but, but that would, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. What else we are doing else? Nothing else. What you are doing, work, we also doing that. You are sleeping, we are sleeping; we are eating, I, we are eating. Reporter: Yeah, that's . . . Prabhupāda: So our business special is: whatever we do, that is to understand God. That is the difference. Reporter: But do you . . . you don't ban sex here, do you? I mean, do you ban sex here? Prabhupāda: Why? We have got; he is gṛhastha . This, this boy, he is writing note, he has got his wife. Reporter: His wife is here? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got separate department for gṛhastha s , householders. Reporter: Yeah, so, so sex isn't banned? Prabhupāda: Sex is allowed . . . Reporter: So sex is . . . Prabhupāda: . . . in married life, not outside. Reporter: So the only thing then that you're not doing that man is doing is defending. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: No, we are defense also. Suppose if you come to attack, I shall kill you, immediately. Reporter: Well, then, I don't see that, uh . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are surprised? Suppose you come to kill me, or set fire in my house: I shall immediately kill you. That is defense. If you want to . . . we, we take a man aggressor when he comes to take my property, when he comes to set fire in my house, and he comes to kidnap my wife. Then I must defend. Reporter: Yeah, well you . . . you haven't explained or you haven't understood what I'm asking. If you are eating, sleeping, you allow sex within a marriage . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . uh, and you'll defend yourself if I come to kill you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . what are you doing different than what everybody, you know . . .? *Prabhupāda: So that you have not still marked, you are so dull*-headed. We are doing everything for God, but you are doing everything for dog. That is difference. Reporter: How, how . . . explain why people are doing it for dog. Prabhupāda: We can see. So many people, they have become servant of dog. Takes the dog in the street: the dogs pass urine, he stands, waits. You see? You have not seen this? The same care we are taking for God. That is the difference. What care you are taking for the dog, the same care we are taking for God. That is the difference. Reporter: If I . . . if I wanted to join your, your group, do I have to give up everything? Prabhupāda: No. Why? The eating, sleeping . . . Reporter: No, no. Do I have to give up material things, like my job? Prabhupāda: So what material things we have given up? We are using this tape recorder. Reporter: So what about my job? Would I have to give up my job? Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can give up. We can provide you. You can give up your this job and join with us, and we shall give you shelter, food and everything. That much we can guarantee. Reporter: Do they have to give up? Do you, I mean, do your followers have to give up . . . Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: . . . working? Prabhupāda: No. You do not give up. Suppose you are journalist. You report God's activities, then you are a devotee. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then you are devotee. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You are giving ordinary reports, but if you give daily a report what God's activities are, then you are devotee. The same business. This is our movement: that you have to do everything as you are doing, but do it for God. That's all. If you want to report God's activities, we can give you daily big, big columns of activities. *Reporter: The, uh, the arrival of fifty saffron*-robed, shaven-headed people in this little village must have excited the people who live here. Did you . . . had any contact with the villagers here? Prabhupāda: Well, anything new, it becomes little agitating. Reporter: Yeah. Have you had any trouble with the villagers here? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No complaints about your banging cymbals or . . .? Prabhupāda: So how they can complain? They haven't got . . . they have got a teeny house somewhere in the corner. We are chanting, dancing, in a big house, so they cannot hear it . . . Reporter: They can't hear you? Prabhupāda: . . . so how they complain? They have no opportunity. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because they are in the corner of the village, and we are living in the seventy acre of land, so how these . . . Reporter: Seventy acres? Seventeen acres. Prabhupāda: Seventeen acres. Yes. So how these poor people can be . . . hear about us? Reporter: Where do you, uh, where do you, are you . . . where are you normally based in India? Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Again you are coming to the common question. I . . . you have begun philosophy, and I must be living somewhere, Calcutta or hell, that doesn't matter. You are concerned what I am doing now. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What you will know, what you will gain, if I lived in Calcutta or in heaven or hell? You, you should know what I am doing, that's all. You should know our philosophy. Reporter: How do you recruit your members, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you come here, you will be member. Reporter: Yeah, but not everybody's gonna come out to, to . . . Prabhupāda: Just like George has become member. Reporter: Yes, but he went to India, didn't he? Prabhupāda: So if you come also, you will become member. Reporter: But, uh, I mean, how do people get to know about, apart from seeing your, your people in Oxford Street? Prabhupāda: My people go there. If you don't come, my people go. Just like he has written you a letter. Reporter: But do you knock on doors and that sort of thing, or do you just parade round the streets, your members? Prabhupāda: No. If I am called, I can go anywhere. I go to deliver lectures in meetings, if I am invited. Otherwise, my students do this business. Reporter: You're going to France to lecture, aren't you, next week? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Or tomorrow, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: But who are you going to lecture to there? Prabhupāda: That they have arranged. I will go and see what. Bhajahari: They have arranged in Paris. When he goes, he'll know. Reporter: Oh, you don't know at the moment who you are going to lecture to. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Do you speak French? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: So you try to understand our philosophy and write in papers. That will be a great service for you. Devotee: Chair? Prabhupāda: Give him a chair. Devotee: Have a chair. Reporter: No, no, no. No, no, it's all right. Thank you. These people who have come to see you, like Graham Hill and, and uh, Sir Alistair Hardy, have they . . . have they joined your movement, or is it, was it just a philosophical discussion that you had with them? Prabhupāda: Well, they like it, they just . . . (break) . . . that you are a reporter, you report about God's activities, then you are giving service to God. That's all. Reporter: But, but what, but, how the . . . how are you initiated? Prabhupāda: That is official function, rituals. Reporter: It's like a baptism, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Like that. Reporter: And that takes place in your temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So George has not been initiated, in fact. He's just a . . . he's just a follower but not a, not a member? Prabhupāda: He is good follower. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Practical. Simply by shaving hair, that is not very important thing. But if he does actually some help, that is more than a devotee. Reporter: What's the purpose of shaving your head? Prabhupāda: Purpose is to lead very simple life, that's all. Clean. If you shave your hair, you remain clean. You don't require shampoo and soap and so many other things to keep the hairs in order. That is also economic profit. You save so much money. We are seeing . . . Reporter: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . in the Western countries, in the bathroom, there are so many bottles. Even in airplane. We don't require all these bottles. We save the money. We simply wash with water, that's all. At most little oil, that's all. Finish. Reporter: Is there a symbol, the fact you don't completely shave but you have a small piece . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, by shaving you keep your brain cooler. Reporter: By shaving you . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Yes, what is it? Śrutikīrti: A letter from Sir Alistair Hardy. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Here is the questions and answers. He is a research worker in religious experience, therefore we had many talks with him. (break) . . . very important man of the society to understand this, science of this philosophy. Our main business is we are also thinking deeply how the human being, human society, will be happy. That's all. As all the politicians or philosophers, scientists, they are thinking for the major benefit of the human society, we are also thinking, but we are thinking in terms of God consciousness. That is the difference. Reporter: But this, uh . . . Prabhupāda: (reading) He says: "I too hope that we may meet again and have a further discussion of these vital issues." Reporter: These are questions that you put to him personally . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Reporter: . . . but I, at a, at a . . . of meeting with him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Did he . . . did you go to Oxford, or did he come here? Prabhupāda: He came here. Reporter: I see, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have not read this portion? Reporter: Yes, I've read that. Prabhupāda: "I too hope we may meet again and have a further discussion on these vital . . ." So he has taken this movement seriously, that there is something to learn. Reporter: Yeah. And so you wish to influence the thinking, the . . . Prabhupāda: Not thinking—practical. Just like these four principles: no illicit sex . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . no intoxication. Reporter: No? Prabhupāda: No intoxication. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: No gambling, and no meat*-eating or fish-eating. So we want to introduce these four principles in the society, because at the present moment the society is maintaining for killing poor animals big, big slaughterhouse. We can do it without. I have seen, yes, Western gentlemen, they eat meat, a little, small slice. But if they can give up that small slice, then we can save so many poor animals' life. But they will not do that. Although Christianity says: "Thou shall not kill," but they are very expert in killing. Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Why? Why the, unnecessarily, poor animals should be killed? And you are responsible for the sinful activities. We are now killing innocent animals small scale, and if there is world war, then the human being will be killed in the mass scale. The . . . this is the reaction. But they do not think of these things. They think, "We are free to kill the animals." But he does not know the nature will take revenge. Reporter: This, uh, talking about animals, this, this letter here says that you've got cows, and they're even at home in the hallways. It says: "At home in the rose beds and in the hallways." Do you have cows inside the house? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not for killing. Reporter: No, but you allow your cows to come through the house, do you? Prabhupāda: No, we take milk. Reporter: Yeah. But do they come inside the house, downstairs? Prabhupāda: Downstairs? I don't think any cow comes here. Reporter: Then what does that mean then, you know, "at home in the rose beds and in the hallways"? Haṁsadūta: Well, we have another house for the cow, (laughter) separate. We have a place for the cows. Reporter: Yeah. That's a cowshed? Haṁsadūta: Oh, I guess . . . Śrutikīrti: They've only come in once or twice, I mean. But that doesn't mean . . . Haṁsadūta: Sometimes they may walk in, but, because we are very friendly with the animals, we don't, uh . . . Reporter: So you wouldn't mind if a cow suddenly walked in? Haṁsadūta: Well, we keep them in their place, but sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: And on the whole . . . Reporter: I'm just understanding this . . . Prabhupāda: . . . we don't keep them for killing. That is not wanted. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: The point is that we don't kill any animal for eating. A cow is here for milk. Reporter: And you work in the fields and gardens? You're growing food, are you? Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: In the, in the seventeen acres, you're growing food. And tropical greenhouses also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: You, you use those for growing . . .? Prabhupāda: Produce our vegetables. Haṁsadūta: Tomatoes. Reporter: (banging sounds) What's that I hear? Prabhupāda: Fruits, flowers, vegetables. Reporter: What's that I hear? Devotee: They're working on the temple room. Reporter: Oh, that's a hammer. Reporter: I thought . . . it was a hammer. I thought it was a knife . . . Haṁsadūta: I think we should get him a chair. Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't need. We have offered. Reporter: Why do we have to see you—if we want to interview you—why do we have to see you in the morning or after four? What happens between times? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Wants to know why interview time is set for four o'clock, after four. Because . . . *Prabhupāda: You want interview should go on twenty*-four hours? Reporter: Yeah, I see. You need a rest, do you? Prabhupāda: So we have got our scheduled time. We generally take our meals by two o'clock. Reporter: Do you take them communally? Do you all sit down together and eat? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No? Not like a monastery, then, where you all . . . Prabhupāda: No, not like that. Reporter: Your, your married people live here in another part of the house, do they? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: With their children? Do you have children here? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: What do they get . . .? Prabhupāda: We are going to open a children's school. We have got already one children's school in Dallas, America. Reporter: Yeah, but what, what happens . . . have you got children here of school age? You know, ten, eleven, twelve? Bhajahari: No. Just one boy. He's five. Reporter: Oh, he's five. Well what, where is he going to go to school, if you don't have your school here? Bhajahari: Well we . . . we haven't one we're starting. Reporter: Oh, you're going to open a school here? Bhajahari: Yeah. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: We have our teachers. Reporter: Yeah. Will they come from India, or will they be people you've trained here? Prabhupāda: No. Local men. Why Indians? We have no such distinction. Reporter: Have you been in England during the winter at all, ever? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: And does that . . . Prabhupāda: Very bad experience. Reporter: Yes, but, uh, what . . . Prabhupāda: Everything becomes solidified. (laughter) Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So I went to Regents Park, and with my stick in the fountain, tung*-tung. Reporter: So how, you know, you . . . and yet you're gonna live here. I mean you're, you're an old man to be coming to a cold climate like this, aren't you? Prabhupāda: No. We have no objection. But because we come from India, this winter is little troublesome for us. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Otherwise I have, in winter, I have gone to Germany also. Russia it was not winter; it was June. So we are prepared to go anywhere. It doesn't matter. In Boston, I was there in a regular snowfall. Regular snowfall, storm snowfall. Still I was going on morning walk, on the snow. Reporter: How do you . . . if you travel all over the world like that, who pays for your traveling? How do you find the money for that? Prabhupāda: There are many person. These, my disciples, they pay. Reporter: I see that you are registered as a charity, it says here. Charity number 259649. Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept charity. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: We are allowed. The other day . . . where is that letter, that one gentleman sent hundred dollars? Haṁsadūta: He said, "Thank you very much . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes, "That you are preaching God consciousness." Haṁsadūta: ". . . you're . . . you have given us knowledge of God. Please accept my donation." Prabhupāda: In this way we are getting charity. There are many nice men in the world. They appreciate very much that in this godless society, we are the only person, our only business is to preach God consciousness. We are simply . . . we are particularly the only society who is insisting, "Don't take intoxication. Don't have illicit sex. Don't eat meat. Don't take part in gambling." Perhaps we are the only society. Reporter: You're the only religious society to do that, even religious society? Prabhupāda: No, apart from religious or political, we are advocating these four principles . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . to accept. Perhaps we are the only society who is doing that. Reporter: Yeah. This . . . Prabhupāda: We consider these are the four pillars of sinful life. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: So if you remain sinful, you cannot become happy. That is nature's way. Why should we kill animals if we have got sufficient food otherwise? We can prepare many thousands of nice preparation from milk. After all, meat*-eating means eating the flesh and blood of cow. But if you take the milk, and if you can prepare from milk, you'll get the same benefit, material benefit, from casein, from milk preparation, from condensed milk—so many things—from ghee . This is more sensible. Milk is also blood, another transformation, so why you should slaughter and take blood directly? Why not take indirectly, by nature's way? You'll take the same benefit, and the poor animal is not killed. And I am surprised. I have not any satisfactory answer, whenever I ask any gentleman that if the Christian principle is first, "Thou shall not kill . . ." Reporter: Do you . . . do you regard yourself as human? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Reporter: Well, your followers seem to regard you as being superhuman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Superhuman means I am not acting as ordinary human being. Reporter: That's right. Do you regard yourself . . . Prabhupāda: I, yes, you can regard also, because we are engaged simply on God's business. Reporter: Yeah, but you personally, you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . do, do you regard . . . Prabhupāda: We are personally, personally engaged. What is my business? My business is that, "You stop your sinful life. Try to understand God." If you take it as superhuman, it is superhuman. But my business is nothing to show you anything miracle. I talk only that, "You do not indulge in these four principles of sinful life, and try to understand God." You can do also. Is it very difficult task? Reporter: But, but your followers seem to regard you as being, uh, some sort of holy . . . holy man. Prabhupāda: Because I am holy. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because I am not committing any sinful life, and I am preaching of God. That is I am holy. So everyone, my disciples, they are also holy. They have been following me. They are doing the same thing. And if you do that, you will become holy. Reporter: Are you married? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. Have you got children? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Where are they? Are they in India? Prabhupāda: In India. Calcutta. Reporter: You've got just one wife, have you? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Only one wife. How many children have you got? Prabhupāda: I have . . . I have got two sons and two daughters. Reporter: Are they members of your sect? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Reporter: Are they, have they been initiated into your . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. But because I am a sannyāsi , I cannot live with them. Reporter: Because you're a . . .? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsi. Sannyāsi means renounced family connection. Reporter: You've renounced family connections. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sannyāsa . We have got four division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha , vānaprastha and sannyāsa . First of all a man is trained how to become brahmacārī , celibate life. Then he is allowed to marry. Then after some days he gives up the connection of family and travels in holy pilgrimages. Reporter: In holy . . .? Devotee: Pilgrimage. Prabhupāda: Holy places. And then he takes sannyāsa , renounce. This is our Vedic principle. So at the end of life . . . suppose you live for a hundred years—nobody is living for a hundred years—anyway, the injunction is when one is fifty years old he should give up family connection and simply live for God's sake, for God's business. This is Vedic civilization. Reporter: How long have you been a member of the Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness then? Prabhupāda: Just . . . it is started by me. Reporter: Started by you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: How long ago? Prabhupāda: In 1966. Reporter: '66. But how long have you been, uhhh . . .? Haṁsadūta: Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Kṛṣṇa, yes, the devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is lifelong, from my birth. Reporter: From your birth. Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because my father was also devotee. He trained me. Reporter: Yeah. Started in 1966. Prabhupāda: Our whole family was devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But this movement was started by me, in New York in 1966. Reporter: Apart from George Harrison, have you ever met any of the other three Beatles? Uh, Paul, John . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I . . . I do not, but Śyāmasundara meets. That Ringa, Ringa? Haṁsadūta: Ringo. Reporter: Ringo. Haṁsadūta: John. Reporter: John. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was guest in John's house. Yes. I was guest. John also, met me. He made me, made me guest in his house in 1968. Haṁsadūta: '68, yes. Prabhupāda: What is that, Tittenhurst? Haṁsadūta: Tittenhurst. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Park. Reporter: And what about Ringo? Prabhupāda: I remained there for one month. Reporter: Ringo and Paul? Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara, he . . . Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara . . . Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara, he, he had . . . he is always associating with these people. Reporter: Well who is Śyāmasundara? Who is he? Prabhupāda: He is my secretary. Haṁsadūta: He is a secretary. Prabhupāda's secretary. Reporter: He's not here today? Prabhupāda: He is . . . he is in London. He is come at seven. Reporter: Have you talked to other members of the British press at all this, this week? Prabhupāda: I do not know. They arrange. Reporter: This week? Prabhupāda: They arrange. Haṁsadūta: No. This week, not yet. Reporter: Not yet. We're the first, are we? Somebody said they've sent out a . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we've sent to everyone. Reporter: Yeah. Somebody said something arrived here this afternoon from some, from another paper. Is that right? Haṁsadūta: I think they . . . probably talking . . . Bhajahari: Yes. No, not this time. Another paper. Haṁsadūta: Another paper. Reporter: What paper was that? Bhajahari: The Daily Mail . Reporter: The Daily Mail . When are they coming back? Bhajahari: This evening, they said. Reporter: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: After four, people come here, up to nine. Reporter: Four people coming tonight? Devotee: No. After four o'clock they come all day. Prabhupāda: People, guests, they come to see me . . . Reporter: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: . . . from four to nine o'clock. Reporter: Do you play that? Prabhupāda: What's that? Reporter: Do you play? Do you play that? Prabhupāda: Sometimes, yes. Reporter: What is it? Prabhupāda: This is harmonium. Reporter: Harmonium is it? Oh. Yeah. Do you just travel with . . . just lightly, do you? You just travel as you stand up, do you, when you go, when you travel abroad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: You don't take anything with you, apart from books or something? Prabhupāda: Books are there in every center. Reporter: Oh, they're there already. So you just go like that, do you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Reporter: Well, I've seen some of the books, but I'd like to see some of the house. This looks like the only part of the house that's, uh, furnished. Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got some other rooms also. Reporter: Is it? Haṁsadūta: (to other devotee) Do you want to take him around? You want to see . . . you'll have a complete . . . go around the grounds and see everything. Reporter: Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda . Reporter: They're too rich. I've had it before. Reporter: What is it? It's like marzipan is it? Devotee: Yes, something good like that. Reporter: Little rich, I find. Haṁsadūta: Take a little. Take a little. Reporter: No, I'll pass on that. Prabhupāda: So give him something poor. (laughter) Reporter: I have traveled to India and such places, and so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Give him little fruit. That is poor. (laughter) Reporter: Yeah, it is rich, isn't it? Hmm. Well, we're going to see around the house. Reporter: Yes. Is it, um . . . I want to take a picture of the house, actually, from outside. Haṁsadūta: Yes, we could do that. Reporter: That is presumably at the end of the garden. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is the best place to take pictures. Also very sunny. Reporter: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . our philosophy . . . advent it . . . it is good for human being. Reporter: It's not possible to get . . . guru out into the garden, is it, at all? Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: Is that possible, so I could have him in the sunshine? Haṁsadūta: Oh. Prabhupāda . . . oh, well, Pra . . . (break) (end) Interview -- August 6, 1973, London (Interview with Reporters) Reporter: You're just over here for a visit, are you? Or are you staying here? Do you intend to stay here? Prabhupāda: If you allow me. Reporter: Well, is there any problem about that, then? Prabhupāda: Yes, because your immigration department is very strict nowadays. Reporter: So they only allow you a visitor's permit, then. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am a visitor. Although I am proprietor of so many temples . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . still I am a visitor in my temple. Reporter: So you're just a visitor, but you want to stay here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: You want to stay here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Permanently? Prabhupāda: Can you help me? Reporter: Oh, I don't know. I'm just a newspaperman. Prabhupāda: Then why are you asking me? Reporter: Well, because I'm interested. I wanted to know whether you would be here . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . just for a visit . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . or whether you were here . . . Prabhupāda: England . . . Reporter: . . . permanently. Prabhupāda: England, especially London, is the most important city in the world, so there are many nice people here. I very much like to talk with them. So if I am allowed to stay here, I can stay and make friendship with nice people here. That's all. Reporter: Yes. When did you arrive? When did you arrive in England? Prabhupāda: (to Haṁsadūta) . . . (indistinct) . . . you can reply. *Haṁsadūta: Umm, about couple of weeks ago. Just before Ratha*-yātrā. Seventh of July? Prabhupāda: Seventh? Haṁsadūta: Seventh of July. Reporter: July seventh. From India. From India. Haṁsadūta: From Calcutta. Reporter: And you've had this, uh, this house since May. Is that right? Haṁsadūta: Since May. Yes Reporter: And George Harrison of the Beatles bought this house for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: How did you get to know George Harrison? Prabhupāda: Well, I am a mendicant. I travel all over the world. Reporter: You're a what? Haṁsadūta: Mendicant. Prabhupāda: Mendicant. Reporter: Yeah. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So people come to me. That is my profession. Reporter: Well, where did you meet Harrison, then? Prabhupāda: In here. I first met him here. Reporter: In London? Prabhupāda: Here in London, 1968. Reporter: 'Cause he had another juru didn't he? He had, um, what was his name? The Maharishi. The, the old gentleman with the beard. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a good boy. He is searching after some spiritual enlightenment. That's very good idea. Reporter: Yeah, but he used to . . . Prabhupāda: And he found Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as genuine. Reporter: (to devotees) So, uh, I'm sorry. When did he say he met George Harrison? In 196 . . .? Devotees: '68. In London. Reporter: 1968. But . . . but George Harrison went to India, and he was, uh, he met there the main Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Prabhupāda: I do not know that. But I have heard it. Reporter: You've heard it, yeah. He's the gentleman with the big beard. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. How is it that he got . . . I mean, if he had one Maharishi juru , guru , whatever you call yourselves, if he had one, why does he need two? Prabhupāda: Well, guru we can make many, for learning many things. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: But he can stick to one. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like in the Western countries, the girls, they meet many boys. At last she selects one. (chuckling) Reporter: Mm. Did he give this house to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Do you pay anything for it at all? Prabhupāda: Uh? Reporter: Do you pay him anything for it at all? Prabhupāda: Well, where is money I shall pay? Reporter: Sorry? Prabhupāda: Where is money I shall pay? Reporter: When you get it, you'll pay for it, will you? Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhajahari: Where is the money? He says he hasn't any. Prabhupāda: You asked me . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . whether I paid anything. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But where is my money? Reporter: Haven't you got any? Śrutikīrti: Doesn't have any money. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: I am a mendicant. *Reporter: So you live here. This is a . . . is it right, fifty*-five rooms in this place? Fifty-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And what are you going to do with them all? Prabhupāda: Oh, you are welcome. Come and live with us. Reporter: How many people live here now? Prabhupāda: About fifty people. Not less than. Reporter: Fifty people living here. Haṁsadūta: At least. Reporter: That's ladies and, uh . . . Haṁsadūta: Ladies, yes. Prabhupāda: Ladies separately. Gentlemen separately. Reporter: And what do they do all day? Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Reporter: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, and eating prasādam , foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: And eating what? Prabhupāda and Devotee: Prasādam . *Haṁsadūta: Prasādam. P-r-a-s*-a . . . *Reporter: P-r-a-s*-a . . . *Haṁsadūta: . . . d*-a-m *Reporter: . . . d*-a-m Haṁsadūta: Prasādam . It is spiritual food, or food offered to Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Well what's spirit . . . what, what's, what is it, spiritual food? Haṁsadūta: It is all vegetarian foodstuffs prepared and then offered to Kṛṣṇa. It becomes spiritual. It is called prasādam . Prabhupāda: You can say that we don't eat meat. Haṁsadūta: Yes. We don't . . . we follow four principles very strictly. We, all our students, they do not eat any meat, fish or eggs. That means we don't kill animals—no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxicants—they take not even tea or cigarettes or coffee. Reporter: Not even tea, cigarettes or coffee. Haṁsadūta: No tea, coffee, cigarettes. Nothing. No intoxication. And they are . . . no illicit sex life. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And they don't gamble. No gambling. These are our four restrictions. Reporter: Now you are, your . . . some of your young men are getting the hall ready for a temple. Is that right? I just saw them. Haṁsadūta: They are preparing the hall downstairs for a temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be used for temple. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Wherever we stay, that is a temple. Reporter: Yes. Yeah. Prabhupāda: We have got so many temples. This is the picture of our Los Angeles temple. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: In Los Angeles. Reporter: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: On the . . . on the twenty*-first of this month, twenty-first and twenty-second, there will be a big ceremony, an installation, a Deity installation ceremony. I think it mentions in, in your . . . Reporter: Yeah, yeah. But apart from eating and chanting, what else do you do here? You sleep in the afternoons, do you? Prabhupāda: No. We have got so many books. There is class. We have got . . . show him the books. Reporter: But you sleep in the afternoon, do you? You've just . . . I'm told you've just woken up. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't sleep at night. I sleep some time in daytime. Reporter: What do you do at night, then? Prabhupāda: I write books. Haṁsadūta: He writes these books. Prabhupada has written more than fifteen big books like this. You can look at them. Prabhupāda: He can note down my books. They are selling . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: Like to have a look at them. Reporter: Yeah. And do your people go up to the West End chanting and collecting money? Do they? Do they go from here? Are they the people one sees in the West End? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Collecting money by selling books. Reporter: Yeah, but these are the people that one sees in Oxford Street. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: They come from here. Bhajahari: We also have a center there, in the West End. Reporter: Yeah. But what I, you know, you've got fifty people here. How many . . . what sort of . . . are they . . . Prabhupāda: They go with books outside, and they chant, and anyone likes, he can purchase our books. Our main source of income is by selling books. All over the world we are selling books, about $300 per day. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: In our center here. Prabhupāda: All center. Reporter: How much do you need to keep this place going? I mean, how do you live here? How much money do you need a week to keep this . . .? Prabhupāda: That I don't keep account. He knows. What . . . what must . . . how much we want. Bhajahari: At least a hundred pounds each week. Prabhupāda: Hundred pounds each week. Reporter: You can get a hundred pounds each week? Bhajahari: Yes. Reporter: Where from? Bhajahari: We have . . . just like our spiritual master was saying about selling books. Reporter: You get a hundred pounds a week selling books, do you? Bhajahari: Well, some people make donations also. Reporter: Yeah. Bhajahari: We have programs. Raise money. Prabhupāda: We have no fixed source of income. We have no fixed source of income, but we depend on Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: You're as rich as the Divine Light Church, or the little guru, the little . . .? *Bhajahari: Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Haṁsadūta: (to Prabhupāda) He wants to know if we are as rich as Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Prabhupāda: I do not know about . . . much about Guru Maharaj*-ji. (laughing) Bhajahari: We don't . . . Prabhupāda: Do you know anything about him? Reporter: Well, I know he has a very expensive motorcar, and uh . . . do you have a very expensive motorcar? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: No. Just see our expenditure is sit down on the floor, just lie down on this floor. (laughter) You are experiencing how we are luxuriously living. We cannot offer even a chair. This is our position. Reporter: But that's because you don't want chairs, though, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: That's because you don't want to have chairs, not because you can't afford chairs. Prabhupāda: No. If you offer me chair, I can sit down. Reporter: Yes, but you don't really . . . be happier sitting there, not in a chair. Haṁsadūta: Here's a chair. Prabhupāda: There is a chair. (laughter) *Reporter: Why, uh, why do you need a fifty*-five-room mansion to carry out your work? Prabhupāda: Because George has given. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we can lie down on the street. We don't deny. If you offer me another house, I can accept also. Reporter: How often do you see George? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: How often do you see George? How often he comes here? Prabhupāda: Since I have come here, he has come here twice, thrice. Reporter: Twice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Just twice? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: He arrived . . . you arrived here July, didn't he? Devotee: Yeah. Reporter: July the seventh, did we say? *Haṁsadūta: Mm*-hm. Prabhupāda: He comes along with his friends. Reporter: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sings. Reporter: He what? Prabhupāda: He is a musician; he sings, that's all. He glorifies Kṛṣṇa. His recent record, he has glorified Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Reporter: What do you think of him as a sitar player? Prabhupāda: We are not very much concerned with sitar players. Reporter: Yeah. No, no. Prabhupāda: We are concerned with the devotees. Reporter: I didn't mean that frivolously. I meant what do you think of him as a sitar player? I understand he does play the sitar . Haṁsadūta: His . . . he plays the sitar . He wants to . . . Prabhupāda: He has not played anything before me, but I know that he is a good musician, that's all. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: But he has not played anything before me. When he comes, he talks with me, that's all. Reporter: What about? Prabhupāda: About this Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yeah. You say you don't smoke cigarettes. Do you smoke anything else? Haṁsadūta: Nothing. No. Reporter: No, no. No pot or anything? *Haṁsadūta: We don't even drink Pepsi*-Cola. Bhajahari: No intoxication. Reporter: Why is that? Haṁsadūta: Because we don't take anything which is not necessary for maintaining the body and soul together. We simply take what's required. Prabhupāda: We want to live very plain and simple life. Reporter: You don't take anything that what? That doesn't require what? Bhajahari: That isn't required to keep body and soul together. Haṁsadūta: We want to live very simple. Plain living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Well I . . . I, I am surprised. So why you don't ask anything about our philosophy? You are asking ordinary things. Reporter: Well I'm coming to that, I'm coming to that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: I'm coming to that, you see. Prabhupāda: That is most important thing. Reporter: It's just that, take . . . take . . . we want to take things as we get to them, you know. Prabhupāda: These are ordinary things. Either you sit on a chair or on the floor, it doesn't matter. Reporter: Umm. It can be uncomfortable sitting on the floor, if you're not used to sitting on the floor. Prabhupāda: No, we are very comfortable. Just see. Reporter: Oh, I can go into, in London, into a Japanese restaurant. They say: "Please would you sit on the floor?" and I'll say: "No, I'm . . . don't want to sit on the floor. Very uncomfortable having my meal and sitting here for two hours." So I go to a . . . Prabhupāda: Those who are uncomfortable, we offer him chair. Yes. Reporter: I go to a part of the restaurant where they have chairs, and I'm comfortable, you see. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You must sit comfortably. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we ask gentleman who comes here, "If you want chair?" If he says: "Yes, that will be nice," we give him chair. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So if you want chair, I can give you. Reporter: Oh, no. I'm moving around all the time, you see. Reporter: It said . . . it says on this little thing—I don't know who wrote it, uh, what's his, uh . . .? Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara. Reporter: Śyāmasundara. It says here that George comes twice a week. Is that right? Or twice. Has he only been here twice? Twice a week, or does he come twice? Prabhupāda: He has come twice. Sometimes twice a . . . Śrutikīrti: He sees Śyāmasundara many times a week. Prabhupāda: Oh, he sees Śyāmasundara many times, here. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara saw him last few days. Saw him today, yesterday. Reporter: What about . . . Prabhupāda: Actually Śyāmasundara, that Śyāmasundara has induced George to take some interest in our Society. He is friend. So he . . . George may come and see him twice in a week. *Reporter: But . . . so you could live . . . you talk about wanting to live simply. You could live simply in an ordinary house, not . . . you don't necessarily need a fifty*-five-bedroom house? Prabhupāda: No. If you offer, why shall I deny it? Reporter: Why should you . . .? Prabhupāda: If you, you, just like George has . . . Devotee: Deny it. Prabhupāda: . . . given us this house . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . similarly, if you give us a house, 155 rooms, we shall accept. Immediately. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And we shall utilize it properly. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Not that we are neglecting. We are keeping. Just see, we are keeping this room very nicely, neat and clean. People come and sit down. Reporter: Were you surprised when he bought it for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Had he met you . . .? Prabhupāda: He has paid £200,000 for this house. Bhajahari: 220,000. Reporter: He has paid £220,000? Bhajahari: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside) . . . recurring charges . . .? Śrutikīrti: 220,000. Prabhupāda: 220,000. Devotees: That's right, yeah. Reporter: When did you know that he'd bought it? Did he write to you in India and tell you, or how did you know? Prabhupāda: No, Śyāmasundara talked with him. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara is George's close friend, so that was arranged between Śyāmasundara and George. Reporter: Yeah, and then, and then they told the, uh . . . Śrutikīrti: Then they told Śrīla Prabhupāda later on that they'd done it. Reporter: Yeah, and then this is why he came over the week . . . to England, because he had this center? Prabhupāda: You have seen our London center? Reporter: No, I haven't. No. *Prabhupāda: That is very, very small house, although it is five*-story. That was not suitable. Reporter: Where is that? Prabhupāda: 7 Bury Place. Śrutikīrti: 7 Bury Place. Prabhupāda: 7 Bury Place. *Bhajahari: B*-u-r-y Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. *Bhajahari: B*-u-r-y Haṁsadūta: Right behind the British Museum. Reporter: Why . . . that, that . . . that only had how many rooms? Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Bhajahari: Maybe had fifteen. Prabhupāda: Fifteen? No. Not so many. Śrutikīrti: Two rooms a floor. Prabhupāda: Not more than ten rooms. Haṁsadūta: Ten rooms, but very small rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So that wasn't very suitable? Prabhupāda: Not suitable. We were about more than fifty devotees. *Śrutikīrti: Sixty*-seven devotees. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-seven devotees. So we wanted a bigger place. So Śyāmasundara told George that if he can give us a . . . give us some money, we can purchase. So he has purchased without taking any of our money. Reporter: Without taking any . . .? Prabhupāda: Our money. Śrutikīrti: Of our money. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: We have no money. Reporter: How many people belong to your sect in . . . in Britain? I mean, not just the fifty here. Are there others? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got other centers—in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Birmingham, Dublin and . . . what other places? Bhajahari: Notting Hill Gate in London north. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So how many followers do you have? *Prabhupāda: Many followers. At least fifty men, not less than twenty*-five, in each center. Reporter: Well that could be . . . my arithmetic is not very good. How many . . . how many centers have you got? Prabhupāda: About half a dozen. Devotee: Six. Prabhupāda: Six. Reporter: So six centers of fifty men in each. *Bhajahari: No. Not less than twenty*-five. *Reporter: Not less than twenty*-five. So six fives are thirty, two sixes are twelve. That's 150. Bhajahari: Approximately. Reporter: About 150 members of your sect . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . in Britain, so far. Prabhupāda: No. We have got . . . just like George does not live with us, but he is also our . . . one of the members. Reporter: Oh, I see. Yeah. These are the people that live with you . . . Prabhupāda: Living. Reporter: There are . . . Prabhupāda: But there are many others who are living outside. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can take photograph of our temple. Down. Reporter: Oh, that's not the temple I've . . . you are preparing, you mean. Downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: From the twenty*-second August it will be regular temple room. Reporter: Have you applied to the Home Office to stay here? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: Have you applied for permission to stay? Prabhupāda: No. I am going day after tomorrow to Paris. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then I will come back again, during the ceremony. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: In this way I am coming, going. I have got so many centers. I have to visit and see how things are going on. Reporter: But you're going st . . . this'll be your headquarters, will it? Prabhupāda: Yes. In Europe it will be my headquarters. Just like in America I have got my headquarter, Los Angeles. Reporter: In Los Angeles? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: In India I have got my headquarters, Māyāpur. Reporter: Yeah. This, uh, letter, we had talks about people like Peter Sellers, Donovan, Allen Ginsberg, "Aging seeker . . ." Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg came here. He comes to see me. Reporter: What about Peter Sellers? Prabhupāda: He sees . . . Bhajahari: He's coming tomorrow. Prabhupāda: He's coming tomorrow. He sees Śyāmasundara. Śrutikīrti: He's seeing Śyāmasundara. He was staying with some of our devotees in Mexico for the last two weeks. Prabhupāda: Lord Brockway came to see me the other day. Lord Fenner Brockway. Sir Alisty . . . Bhajahari: Alistair Hardy. Prabhupāda: . . . Hardy, he likes our movement. Reporter: Who? Lord Brockway came to see you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And what is this? That Professor, Sir Alistair . . . Haṁsadūta: Sir Alistair Hardy from Oxford University. Prabhupāda: He also came. And that editor. Many gentlemen come. Bhajahari: John Papworth. Reporter: Who? Bhajahari: John Papworth, from Resurgence . Reporter: Then, well, what about people like Graham Hill? Bhajahari: Yes. He was here about ten days ago. Reporter: Well what these people do? Prabhupāda: They talk about our philosophy. Therefore I was asking why don't you talk about philosophy. Reporter: Graham Hill came, uh . . . so all these—Sir Alistair Hardy, the Bishops of Kingston and Southwark. Have you seen them? Bhajahari: They're to come in the future. Reporter: Oh, they're coming in the future? Bhajahari: After. After Śrīla Prabhupāda returns from Paris. Reporter: But Dr. Ramsey, the Archbishop, is he coming? Bhajahari: After Paris. Reporter: Dr. Arnold . . . Haṁsadūta: (to Prabhupāda) In Paris, in Paris they have a . . . the Assistant Mayor will give you an official reception to the city in City Hall when you come there on the tenth . . . on the ninth, rather. Reporter: What about Dr. Arnold Toynbee? Has he been here? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I saw him. Bhajahari: Mr. Toynbee is very . . . he can't move around very much, so Prabhupada went to visit him. Reporter: Yeah. How did they get to know about your movement? How do these people—Graham Hill and Peter Sellers and—how do they, how do you think they get to know about you? Prabhupāda: (to devotee) How did you want to . . . Bhajahari: We are propagating. All the devotees here are propagating . . . Prabhupāda: You see, any movement, if it is approved by the leading men of the society, it gets the standard. Our movement is very scientific. Therefore we want the leading men. Just like you are a journalist, we wish that you also try to understand how important this movement is. And if you think that it is actually it is important, you should help us in propagation. That is our motive. Reporter: Yeah. So the Bishops of Southwark have gotta come; they, they're coming. Dr. Ramsey's coming. Have you, have you had any . . . do you write to Dr. Ramsey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. I don't write. My assistant, they arrange meetings. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: I am . . . Reporter: He's gonna come to see you? Bhajahari: He's coming, yeah. Reporter: How do you know that? Bhajahari: Well, one boy is arranging all these meetings. Reporter: Oh, he's, yeah. I see. Now apart from eating and chanting, you must meditate, too. Do you here? Do you spend your time meditating? Prabhupāda: Meditate . . . do you know what is meditation? Reporter: Well, it's deep thought, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So we are always in meditation . . . Reporter: You're always in meditation. Prabhupāda: . . . because we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: Not that we meditate for five minutes and do nonsense twenty*-four hours. Not like that. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: We meditate twenty*-four hours. Reporter: Yeah. All the time, yeah. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. We don't make, "This is . . . this time are for meditation and this time is for slaughtering animals." We have no such thought. We meditate twenty*-four hours. That is our philosophy. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ ( CC Adi 17.31). Reporter: What about prayer? How much time do you spend in prayer? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prayer is also meditation. Reporter: Yeah, but how much time do you spend, then? *Prabhupāda: Our meditation is twenty*-four hours, in varieties of occupation. We are meditating chanting; we are meditating dancing; we are meditating eating; we are meditating preaching; we are meditating writing; we are meditating reading; *we are meditating singing. So these so*-called meditators, they close their eyes and sleep for some time—not like that. We have got our occupation, varieties, but each occupation is meditation. *Reporter: Yeah, but you get up at four*-thirty, apparently. This all starts at four-thirty, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, maṅgala-ārātrika. Offering ārātrika , reception to the Lord. *Reporter: At four*-thirty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And all fifty of you are up at that time, are you? *Haṁsadūta: Well, before that, actually. Three*-thirty, four. Ceremony is at four-thirty. Reporter: What time do you go to bed, to sleep? *Haṁsadūta: Nine*-thirty, ten. Prabhupāda: Ten. Reporter: Ten. Prabhupāda: Six hours' sleeping. Reporter: You say you have a sort of lifestyle comparison with monks in monastery? Early rising and busy day and early to bed. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Reporter: Similar. Haṁsadūta: Rising early is very important. Reporter: Now what about your philosophy, then? What is your philosophy? Let's talk about philosophy. Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is this is God's creation. Everything what you see, that is God's creation. And He has created this cosmic manifestation with a purpose. As every . . . everyone creates something with a purpose, not whimsically. So we living entities, we are also one of the creation of God. So our business is to understand what is God, what is our relationship with Him, and act accordingly. That is . . . that is our constitutional position. Reporter: Well what does that in fact mean in practice? How do you act accordingly in practice? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are acting. We are rising early in the morning, we are offering reception to God, and we are chanting His glories, we are reading about His activities. So this is our understanding what is God. And then we are trying . . . people have forgotten God. They have become animals. They are interested simply eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is animal life. Animal has no other business than these four types of activities—how to eat, animal . . . Reporter: Sleeping . . . Haṁsadūta: Eating, sleeping, defending and mating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Animals eats, animal sleeps, animals have sex life, and animal also defend from enemies. So human being, at the present moment, they are also engaged in eating, how to eat; economic condition, developing how to sleep, big, big skyscraper building; and how to have sex life, freedom of boys and girls, just like hippies, to manage sex life without any restriction, like cats and dogs. So . . . and defending also. You might have discovered atomic bomb and other scientific method for defense—that is defense only. But these business are there in animals also. So what is the special business of human being? Can you tell me? Reporter: So what . . .? Prabhupāda: These four businesses—eating, sleeping, enjoy sex life and make defense, force—so these four things are done by the animals. So you also do in a different way, in a scientific way, but the business is the same. Reporter: So what do you do? You, you eat and sleep. So what else do you do? Prabhupāda: We . . . you, you have not yet marked? Our only eating, sleeping, everything is for God. Reporter: Yeah, but what else do . . . Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Reporter: Yeah, but, but that would, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. What else we are doing else? Nothing else. What you are doing, work, we also doing that. You are sleeping, we are sleeping; we are eating, I, we are eating. Reporter: Yeah, that's . . . Prabhupāda: So our business special is: whatever we do, that is to understand God. That is the difference. Reporter: But do you . . . you don't ban sex here, do you? I mean, do you ban sex here? Prabhupāda: Why? We have got; he is gṛhastha . This, this boy, he is writing note, he has got his wife. Reporter: His wife is here? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got separate department for gṛhastha s , householders. Reporter: Yeah, so, so sex isn't banned? Prabhupāda: Sex is allowed . . . Reporter: So sex is . . . Prabhupāda: . . . in married life, not outside. Reporter: So the only thing then that you're not doing that man is doing is defending. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: No, we are defense also. Suppose if you come to attack, I shall kill you, immediately. Reporter: Well, then, I don't see that, uh . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are surprised? Suppose you come to kill me, or set fire in my house: I shall immediately kill you. That is defense. If you want to . . . we, we take a man aggressor when he comes to take my property, when he comes to set fire in my house, and he comes to kidnap my wife. Then I must defend. Reporter: Yeah, well you . . . you haven't explained or you haven't understood what I'm asking. If you are eating, sleeping, you allow sex within a marriage . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . uh, and you'll defend yourself if I come to kill you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . what are you doing different than what everybody, you know . . .? *Prabhupāda: So that you have not still marked, you are so dull*-headed. We are doing everything for God, but you are doing everything for dog. That is difference. Reporter: How, how . . . explain why people are doing it for dog. Prabhupāda: We can see. So many people, they have become servant of dog. Takes the dog in the street: the dogs pass urine, he stands, waits. You see? You have not seen this? The same care we are taking for God. That is the difference. What care you are taking for the dog, the same care we are taking for God. That is the difference. Reporter: If I . . . if I wanted to join your, your group, do I have to give up everything? Prabhupāda: No. Why? The eating, sleeping . . . Reporter: No, no. Do I have to give up material things, like my job? Prabhupāda: So what material things we have given up? We are using this tape recorder. Reporter: So what about my job? Would I have to give up my job? Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can give up. We can provide you. You can give up your this job and join with us, and we shall give you shelter, food and everything. That much we can guarantee. Reporter: Do they have to give up? Do you, I mean, do your followers have to give up . . . Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: . . . working? Prabhupāda: No. You do not give up. Suppose you are journalist. You report God's activities, then you are a devotee. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then you are devotee. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You are giving ordinary reports, but if you give daily a report what God's activities are, then you are devotee. The same business. This is our movement: that you have to do everything as you are doing, but do it for God. That's all. If you want to report God's activities, we can give you daily big, big columns of activities. *Reporter: The, uh, the arrival of fifty saffron*-robed, shaven-headed people in this little village must have excited the people who live here. Did you . . . had any contact with the villagers here? Prabhupāda: Well, anything new, it becomes little agitating. Reporter: Yeah. Have you had any trouble with the villagers here? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No complaints about your banging cymbals or . . .? Prabhupāda: So how they can complain? They haven't got . . . they have got a teeny house somewhere in the corner. We are chanting, dancing, in a big house, so they cannot hear it . . . Reporter: They can't hear you? Prabhupāda: . . . so how they complain? They have no opportunity. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because they are in the corner of the village, and we are living in the seventy acre of land, so how these . . . Reporter: Seventy acres? Seventeen acres. Prabhupāda: Seventeen acres. Yes. So how these poor people can be . . . hear about us? Reporter: Where do you, uh, where do you, are you . . . where are you normally based in India? Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Again you are coming to the common question. I . . . you have begun philosophy, and I must be living somewhere, Calcutta or hell, that doesn't matter. You are concerned what I am doing now. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What you will know, what you will gain, if I lived in Calcutta or in heaven or hell? You, you should know what I am doing, that's all. You should know our philosophy. Reporter: How do you recruit your members, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you come here, you will be member. Reporter: Yeah, but not everybody's gonna come out to, to . . . Prabhupāda: Just like George has become member. Reporter: Yes, but he went to India, didn't he? Prabhupāda: So if you come also, you will become member. Reporter: But, uh, I mean, how do people get to know about, apart from seeing your, your people in Oxford Street? Prabhupāda: My people go there. If you don't come, my people go. Just like he has written you a letter. Reporter: But do you knock on doors and that sort of thing, or do you just parade round the streets, your members? Prabhupāda: No. If I am called, I can go anywhere. I go to deliver lectures in meetings, if I am invited. Otherwise, my students do this business. Reporter: You're going to France to lecture, aren't you, next week? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Or tomorrow, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: But who are you going to lecture to there? Prabhupāda: That they have arranged. I will go and see what. Bhajahari: They have arranged in Paris. When he goes, he'll know. Reporter: Oh, you don't know at the moment who you are going to lecture to. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Do you speak French? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: So you try to understand our philosophy and write in papers. That will be a great service for you. Devotee: Chair? Prabhupāda: Give him a chair. Devotee: Have a chair. Reporter: No, no, no. No, no, it's all right. Thank you. These people who have come to see you, like Graham Hill and, and uh, Sir Alistair Hardy, have they . . . have they joined your movement, or is it, was it just a philosophical discussion that you had with them? Prabhupāda: Well, they like it, they just . . . (break) . . . that you are a reporter, you report about God's activities, then you are giving service to God. That's all. Reporter: But, but what, but, how the . . . how are you initiated? Prabhupāda: That is official function, rituals. Reporter: It's like a baptism, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Like that. Reporter: And that takes place in your temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So George has not been initiated, in fact. He's just a . . . he's just a follower but not a, not a member? Prabhupāda: He is good follower. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Practical. Simply by shaving hair, that is not very important thing. But if he does actually some help, that is more than a devotee. Reporter: What's the purpose of shaving your head? Prabhupāda: Purpose is to lead very simple life, that's all. Clean. If you shave your hair, you remain clean. You don't require shampoo and soap and so many other things to keep the hairs in order. That is also economic profit. You save so much money. We are seeing . . . Reporter: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . in the Western countries, in the bathroom, there are so many bottles. Even in airplane. We don't require all these bottles. We save the money. We simply wash with water, that's all. At most little oil, that's all. Finish. Reporter: Is there a symbol, the fact you don't completely shave but you have a small piece . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, by shaving you keep your brain cooler. Reporter: By shaving you . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Yes, what is it? Śrutikīrti: A letter from Sir Alistair Hardy. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Here is the questions and answers. He is a research worker in religious experience, therefore we had many talks with him. (break) . . . very important man of the society to understand this, science of this philosophy. Our main business is we are also thinking deeply how the human being, human society, will be happy. That's all. As all the politicians or philosophers, scientists, they are thinking for the major benefit of the human society, we are also thinking, but we are thinking in terms of God consciousness. That is the difference. Reporter: But this, uh . . . Prabhupāda: (reading) He says: "I too hope that we may meet again and have a further discussion of these vital issues." Reporter: These are questions that you put to him personally . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Reporter: . . . but I, at a, at a . . . of meeting with him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Did he . . . did you go to Oxford, or did he come here? Prabhupāda: He came here. Reporter: I see, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have not read this portion? Reporter: Yes, I've read that. Prabhupāda: "I too hope we may meet again and have a further discussion on these vital . . ." So he has taken this movement seriously, that there is something to learn. Reporter: Yeah. And so you wish to influence the thinking, the . . . Prabhupāda: Not thinking—practical. Just like these four principles: no illicit sex . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . no intoxication. Reporter: No? Prabhupāda: No intoxication. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: No gambling, and no meat*-eating or fish-eating. So we want to introduce these four principles in the society, because at the present moment the society is maintaining for killing poor animals big, big slaughterhouse. We can do it without. I have seen, yes, Western gentlemen, they eat meat, a little, small slice. But if they can give up that small slice, then we can save so many poor animals' life. But they will not do that. Although Christianity says: "Thou shall not kill," but they are very expert in killing. Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Why? Why the, unnecessarily, poor animals should be killed? And you are responsible for the sinful activities. We are now killing innocent animals small scale, and if there is world war, then the human being will be killed in the mass scale. The . . . this is the reaction. But they do not think of these things. They think, "We are free to kill the animals." But he does not know the nature will take revenge. Reporter: This, uh, talking about animals, this, this letter here says that you've got cows, and they're even at home in the hallways. It says: "At home in the rose beds and in the hallways." Do you have cows inside the house? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not for killing. Reporter: No, but you allow your cows to come through the house, do you? Prabhupāda: No, we take milk. Reporter: Yeah. But do they come inside the house, downstairs? Prabhupāda: Downstairs? I don't think any cow comes here. Reporter: Then what does that mean then, you know, "at home in the rose beds and in the hallways"? Haṁsadūta: Well, we have another house for the cow, (laughter) separate. We have a place for the cows. Reporter: Yeah. That's a cowshed? Haṁsadūta: Oh, I guess . . . Śrutikīrti: They've only come in once or twice, I mean. But that doesn't mean . . . Haṁsadūta: Sometimes they may walk in, but, because we are very friendly with the animals, we don't, uh . . . Reporter: So you wouldn't mind if a cow suddenly walked in? Haṁsadūta: Well, we keep them in their place, but sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: And on the whole . . . Reporter: I'm just understanding this . . . Prabhupāda: . . . we don't keep them for killing. That is not wanted. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: The point is that we don't kill any animal for eating. A cow is here for milk. Reporter: And you work in the fields and gardens? You're growing food, are you? Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: In the, in the seventeen acres, you're growing food. And tropical greenhouses also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: You, you use those for growing . . .? Prabhupāda: Produce our vegetables. Haṁsadūta: Tomatoes. Reporter: (banging sounds) What's that I hear? Prabhupāda: Fruits, flowers, vegetables. Reporter: What's that I hear? Devotee: They're working on the temple room. Reporter: Oh, that's a hammer. Reporter: I thought . . . it was a hammer. I thought it was a knife . . . Haṁsadūta: I think we should get him a chair. Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't need. We have offered. Reporter: Why do we have to see you—if we want to interview you—why do we have to see you in the morning or after four? What happens between times? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Wants to know why interview time is set for four o'clock, after four. Because . . . *Prabhupāda: You want interview should go on twenty*-four hours? Reporter: Yeah, I see. You need a rest, do you? Prabhupāda: So we have got our scheduled time. We generally take our meals by two o'clock. Reporter: Do you take them communally? Do you all sit down together and eat? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No? Not like a monastery, then, where you all . . . Prabhupāda: No, not like that. Reporter: Your, your married people live here in another part of the house, do they? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: With their children? Do you have children here? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: What do they get . . .? Prabhupāda: We are going to open a children's school. We have got already one children's school in Dallas, America. Reporter: Yeah, but what, what happens . . . have you got children here of school age? You know, ten, eleven, twelve? Bhajahari: No. Just one boy. He's five. Reporter: Oh, he's five. Well what, where is he going to go to school, if you don't have your school here? Bhajahari: Well we . . . we haven't one we're starting. Reporter: Oh, you're going to open a school here? Bhajahari: Yeah. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: We have our teachers. Reporter: Yeah. Will they come from India, or will they be people you've trained here? Prabhupāda: No. Local men. Why Indians? We have no such distinction. Reporter: Have you been in England during the winter at all, ever? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: And does that . . . Prabhupāda: Very bad experience. Reporter: Yes, but, uh, what . . . Prabhupāda: Everything becomes solidified. (laughter) Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So I went to Regents Park, and with my stick in the fountain, tung*-tung. Reporter: So how, you know, you . . . and yet you're gonna live here. I mean you're, you're an old man to be coming to a cold climate like this, aren't you? Prabhupāda: No. We have no objection. But because we come from India, this winter is little troublesome for us. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Otherwise I have, in winter, I have gone to Germany also. Russia it was not winter; it was June. So we are prepared to go anywhere. It doesn't matter. In Boston, I was there in a regular snowfall. Regular snowfall, storm snowfall. Still I was going on morning walk, on the snow. Reporter: How do you . . . if you travel all over the world like that, who pays for your traveling? How do you find the money for that? Prabhupāda: There are many person. These, my disciples, they pay. Reporter: I see that you are registered as a charity, it says here. Charity number 259649. Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept charity. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: We are allowed. The other day . . . where is that letter, that one gentleman sent hundred dollars? Haṁsadūta: He said, "Thank you very much . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes, "That you are preaching God consciousness." Haṁsadūta: ". . . you're . . . you have given us knowledge of God. Please accept my donation." Prabhupāda: In this way we are getting charity. There are many nice men in the world. They appreciate very much that in this godless society, we are the only person, our only business is to preach God consciousness. We are simply . . . we are particularly the only society who is insisting, "Don't take intoxication. Don't have illicit sex. Don't eat meat. Don't take part in gambling." Perhaps we are the only society. Reporter: You're the only religious society to do that, even religious society? Prabhupāda: No, apart from religious or political, we are advocating these four principles . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . to accept. Perhaps we are the only society who is doing that. Reporter: Yeah. This . . . Prabhupāda: We consider these are the four pillars of sinful life. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: So if you remain sinful, you cannot become happy. That is nature's way. Why should we kill animals if we have got sufficient food otherwise? We can prepare many thousands of nice preparation from milk. After all, meat*-eating means eating the flesh and blood of cow. But if you take the milk, and if you can prepare from milk, you'll get the same benefit, material benefit, from casein, from milk preparation, from condensed milk—so many things—from ghee . This is more sensible. Milk is also blood, another transformation, so why you should slaughter and take blood directly? Why not take indirectly, by nature's way? You'll take the same benefit, and the poor animal is not killed. And I am surprised. I have not any satisfactory answer, whenever I ask any gentleman that if the Christian principle is first, "Thou shall not kill . . ." Reporter: Do you . . . do you regard yourself as human? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Reporter: Well, your followers seem to regard you as being superhuman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Superhuman means I am not acting as ordinary human being. Reporter: That's right. Do you regard yourself . . . Prabhupāda: I, yes, you can regard also, because we are engaged simply on God's business. Reporter: Yeah, but you personally, you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . do, do you regard . . . Prabhupāda: We are personally, personally engaged. What is my business? My business is that, "You stop your sinful life. Try to understand God." If you take it as superhuman, it is superhuman. But my business is nothing to show you anything miracle. I talk only that, "You do not indulge in these four principles of sinful life, and try to understand God." You can do also. Is it very difficult task? Reporter: But, but your followers seem to regard you as being, uh, some sort of holy . . . holy man. Prabhupāda: Because I am holy. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because I am not committing any sinful life, and I am preaching of God. That is I am holy. So everyone, my disciples, they are also holy. They have been following me. They are doing the same thing. And if you do that, you will become holy. Reporter: Are you married? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. Have you got children? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Where are they? Are they in India? Prabhupāda: In India. Calcutta. Reporter: You've got just one wife, have you? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Only one wife. How many children have you got? Prabhupāda: I have . . . I have got two sons and two daughters. Reporter: Are they members of your sect? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Reporter: Are they, have they been initiated into your . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. But because I am a sannyāsi , I cannot live with them. Reporter: Because you're a . . .? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsi. Sannyāsi means renounced family connection. Reporter: You've renounced family connections. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sannyāsa . We have got four division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha , vānaprastha and sannyāsa . First of all a man is trained how to become brahmacārī , celibate life. Then he is allowed to marry. Then after some days he gives up the connection of family and travels in holy pilgrimages. Reporter: In holy . . .? Devotee: Pilgrimage. Prabhupāda: Holy places. And then he takes sannyāsa , renounce. This is our Vedic principle. So at the end of life . . . suppose you live for a hundred years—nobody is living for a hundred years—anyway, the injunction is when one is fifty years old he should give up family connection and simply live for God's sake, for God's business. This is Vedic civilization. Reporter: How long have you been a member of the Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness then? Prabhupāda: Just . . . it is started by me. Reporter: Started by you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: How long ago? Prabhupāda: In 1966. Reporter: '66. But how long have you been, uhhh . . .? Haṁsadūta: Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Kṛṣṇa, yes, the devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is lifelong, from my birth. Reporter: From your birth. Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because my father was also devotee. He trained me. Reporter: Yeah. Started in 1966. Prabhupāda: Our whole family was devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But this movement was started by me, in New York in 1966. Reporter: Apart from George Harrison, have you ever met any of the other three Beatles? Uh, Paul, John . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I . . . I do not, but Śyāmasundara meets. That Ringa, Ringa? Haṁsadūta: Ringo. Reporter: Ringo. Haṁsadūta: John. Reporter: John. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was guest in John's house. Yes. I was guest. John also, met me. He made me, made me guest in his house in 1968. Haṁsadūta: '68, yes. Prabhupāda: What is that, Tittenhurst? Haṁsadūta: Tittenhurst. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Park. Reporter: And what about Ringo? Prabhupāda: I remained there for one month. Reporter: Ringo and Paul? Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara, he . . . Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara . . . Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara, he, he had . . . he is always associating with these people. Reporter: Well who is Śyāmasundara? Who is he? Prabhupāda: He is my secretary. Haṁsadūta: He is a secretary. Prabhupāda's secretary. Reporter: He's not here today? Prabhupāda: He is . . . he is in London. He is come at seven. Reporter: Have you talked to other members of the British press at all this, this week? Prabhupāda: I do not know. They arrange. Reporter: This week? Prabhupāda: They arrange. Haṁsadūta: No. This week, not yet. Reporter: Not yet. We're the first, are we? Somebody said they've sent out a . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we've sent to everyone. Reporter: Yeah. Somebody said something arrived here this afternoon from some, from another paper. Is that right? Haṁsadūta: I think they . . . probably talking . . . Bhajahari: Yes. No, not this time. Another paper. Haṁsadūta: Another paper. Reporter: What paper was that? Bhajahari: The Daily Mail . Reporter: The Daily Mail . When are they coming back? Bhajahari: This evening, they said. Reporter: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: After four, people come here, up to nine. Reporter: Four people coming tonight? Devotee: No. After four o'clock they come all day. Prabhupāda: People, guests, they come to see me . . . Reporter: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: . . . from four to nine o'clock. Reporter: Do you play that? Prabhupāda: What's that? Reporter: Do you play? Do you play that? Prabhupāda: Sometimes, yes. Reporter: What is it? Prabhupāda: This is harmonium. Reporter: Harmonium is it? Oh. Yeah. Do you just travel with . . . just lightly, do you? You just travel as you stand up, do you, when you go, when you travel abroad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: You don't take anything with you, apart from books or something? Prabhupāda: Books are there in every center. Reporter: Oh, they're there already. So you just go like that, do you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Reporter: Well, I've seen some of the books, but I'd like to see some of the house. This looks like the only part of the house that's, uh, furnished. Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got some other rooms also. Reporter: Is it? Haṁsadūta: (to other devotee) Do you want to take him around? You want to see . . . you'll have a complete . . . go around the grounds and see everything. Reporter: Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda . Reporter: They're too rich. I've had it before. Reporter: What is it? It's like marzipan is it? Devotee: Yes, something good like that. Reporter: Little rich, I find. Haṁsadūta: Take a little. Take a little. Reporter: No, I'll pass on that. Prabhupāda: So give him something poor. (laughter) Reporter: I have traveled to India and such places, and so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Give him little fruit. That is poor. (laughter) Reporter: Yeah, it is rich, isn't it? Hmm. Well, we're going to see around the house. Reporter: Yes. Is it, um . . . I want to take a picture of the house, actually, from outside. Haṁsadūta: Yes, we could do that. Reporter: That is presumably at the end of the garden. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is the best place to take pictures. Also very sunny. Reporter: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . our philosophy . . . advent it . . . it is good for human being. Reporter: It's not possible to get . . . guru out into the garden, is it, at all? Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: Is that possible, so I could have him in the sunshine? Haṁsadūta: Oh. Prabhupāda . . . oh, well, Pra . . . (break) (end) Interview -- August 7, 1973, London (Interview with Reporter) - (poor recording) Reporter: (indistinct) . . . what happened . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer, who is coming any time, any time now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So I would be grateful if I could just talk to you for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Reporter: Um, the, ah . . . when did you arrive in this country, sir? Prabhupāda: Just . . . these questions, he can answer. *Haṁsadūta: Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . tape*-recorder. *Reporter: Why are you tape*-recording the conversation? *Haṁsadūta: Oh, we tape*-record everything, because everything Prabhupāda says is very important. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . comes from the book. Reporter: I see. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda . . . you want to know when he arrived in London? July seventh. Reporter: July seventh. Is this the first time that he has been . . . Haṁsadūta: No, Prabhupāda has been here often, very often before. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: We have another center downtown. Reporter: In London? Haṁsadūta: Yes, it is 7 Bury Place, right behind the British Museum. Reporter: I see. Yes. And when was this house given to you? Haṁsadūta: Oh, I think in May. George Harrison, he donated this house to Prabhupāda for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Did he in fact . . . how much did he pay for the house? Haṁsadūta: Ah, about £220,000. Reporter: Does he still own the house? Haṁsadūta: Erm . . . it's in a special trust, of which the proceeds go to our society. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: You have to excuse me . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yeah, sure Haṁsadūta: A plug in, and then I can speak with you. Reporter: Ah. What does "prophet" mean? You call him prophet? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda? Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda means the master at whose feet, or at whose lotus feet, all the other masters take shelter. Reporter: Yes. How long has Prapoom been leading this faith? Haṁsadūta: Hmm . . . Reporter: Do you call it a religion, or do you call it a faith? What do you call it? Spiritual movement, is it? Haṁsadūta: Just a minute. (making some technical adjustments) Okay. Prabhupāda, he came to America in 19 . . . 1965. Reporter: Yes. Where did he come from originally? Haṁsadūta: He was born in Calcutta, in India. Reporter: What is his background? Haṁsadūta: He was educated in Scottish Churches, and he was a businessman. Chemical company, manager of a chemical, pharmaceutical supply house. Reporter: Where? In Calcutta? Haṁsadūta: Well, in India, different parts Reporter: India. When was that? Haṁsadūta: That was in . . . (indistinct) . . . in his early life he . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yeah. And when did he start this religion? *Haṁsadūta: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a religion, but Prabhupāda . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very old, you know. The Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken over five thousand years ago. So it is the oldest literature in the world. So Prabhupāda is an ācārya , or spiritual teacher. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: A pure devotee, in the line of disciplic succession . . . Reporter: When . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . which is coming down from Kṛṣṇa. So . . . Reporter: When did he first start doing . . . Haṁsadūta: He came to America in 19 . . . *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-five. Haṁsadūta: 1965, under the order of his spiritual master, to spread this, this eternal teaching in the English language. Reporter: Until that time had he been teaching in the Indian language? Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda has, practically, Prabhupāda has been a devotee from birth. He was born in a family of Vaiṣṇavas, or Kṛṣṇa devotees. Reporter: Yes, I see. Haṁsadūta: And all his life, dedicated to preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Yes, and . . . but what . . . at what stage in his life did he abandon his career in business? Haṁsadūta: In business? Prabhupāda: About sixty . . . I was born in 1896 and I left my home in 1954. 1896 to 1954. *Haṁsadūta: Fifty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I came to America in 1965. But I left my home in 1954. *Reporter: Fifty*-four, yes. This is when you abandoned your career in business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. What made you decide to abandon a career in business? Prabhupāda: This is our system. At a certain age, we must give up our family life. This is Vedic system. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no question of decision. According to Vedic system, a man's duration of life is divided into four. The first portion is called brahmacārī , or student life. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to twenty . . . suppose one man lives, take it for granted, one hundred years. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So first twenty*-five years, he becomes a rigid brahmacārī . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Means completely celibacy. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: And austerity, penance and education. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Up to twenty*-five years. *Reporter: Twenty*-five. Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he becomes married, householder. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he remains up to his fiftieth year. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So within this twenty*-five years, whatever children he gets, they are grown up, so the husband and wife goes out of home . . . Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: . . . touring all over holy places. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, when gradually he becomes unattached to wife also, the wife comes back home and the husband takes sannyāsa , the renounced order. This is the Vedic system. It is not a question of decision; it is the system . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that one should live in this way. Reporter: Yes. Do you have a wife and family, sir? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Can I ask you, how many children do you have? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got two daughters and two sons. Reporter: And your wife, she is still living, is she? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are living at my home in Calcutta. Reporter: You still see them occasionally? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: You don't? Because this is that part of your life, is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So how do you spend your life now, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: How do you spend your life now? Where is your home now? Prabhupāda: My home is in Calcutta. Reporter: But not with your family. Prabhupāda: No, my wife with her children . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they are living in their house in Calcutta. Reporter: In Calcutta, yes. Haṁsadūta: He wants to know what is the nature of your life there . . . Reporter: But you still see . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no, I don't see. Reporter: You don't see them. Haṁsadūta: Right. Prabhupāda: I'm strictly prohibited to see my wife. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: But my children may come and see me. Reporter: But your children may see you, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they come sometimes. Reporter: So you have a home as well, also a home in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And you spend . . . do you travel extensively over the world . . . around the world, I believe. Prabhupāda: Because I am now sannyāsī . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I have no home at all. A sannyāsī is supposed to have no home. He is touring. Just like here, although I am supposed to be the owner of everything . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but I don't possess anything. It is the possession of the Society. Reporter: I see. How many members do you have in your Society? Prabhupāda: We have got many members. About . . . members and admirers, about 10,000, in the Western countries. Reporter: Ten thousand in the Western countries. What about in the East? Haṁsadūta: Everyone. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: East, everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Reporter: I see. Now, there are many movements which seem to emanate from India at the moment in this country. The most popular recently is a Mahārāji*-ji. Now, how do you regard these other . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think he is very popular? Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Do you think so? Reporter: Well, it seems he gets a lot of people at the rallies. They have rallies, and they have many people there. Prabhupāda: But they have no center. We have got about one hundred centers. And in each center . . . (aside) You show. Haṁsadūta: This is our Los Angeles center. Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have got in every center. Haṁsadūta: Los Angeles center. Reporter: In Los Angeles. *Prabhupāda: I don't think this Mahārāj*-ji has got such thing. Reporter: No. But how do you regard these other people? Do you regard them as impostors? Prabhupāda: Yes, because anyone who is not God conscious . . . most of them, they come, they pose themself as God. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is most ludicrous. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: We hate them. *Reporter: They pose themselves as God and like to drive around in Rolls*-Royce cars. *Prabhupāda: Rolls*-Royce car, that is another thing. Anyone can travel . . . but when they say that . . . when somebody says that, "I am God," then immediately we kick on his face. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is the most impostor. And the foolish person only follow them, because they do not know what is God. Reporter: Hmm. Are you . . . are you a rich man, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: Are you a rich man? In financial terms? Prabhupāda: No. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda is a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī means he has renounced everything. He has no money, he doesn't acquire anything. His business is simply to preach the message of Kṛṣṇa. What he is a preacher of God, a servant of God. Reporter: What is the message, in fact, of Kṛṣṇa? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the message . . . Prabhupāda: Message is that everything belongs to God. Even ourself, we belong to God. Therefore everything should be used for satisfying God. This is our message. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have written about more than one dozen books, big books, and such small books about twenty, thirty like this. Small books. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: To help people understand this philosophy. Reporter: yoga is part of the religion? *Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is called bhakti*-yoga . yoga , devotion. yoga of love, love of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: So these, we are publishing at least fifteen books like this. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: They have all authorized scripture. They are more than five thousand years old, these scriptures. And we are distributing them all over the world in different languages, like German, English, Japanese, Hindi, like that. All the pictures and everything are made by our students. Reporter: How do you view the Christian religion? I mean, are these religions valid in your eyes? Prabhupāda: The religion is quite valid, but the followers are not valid. Reporter: No. Because they're not dedicating themselves . . . Prabhupāda: Not only that; they are violating the orders of Jesus Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But they are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So it is very difficult to find out a strict Christian. Reporter: Yes. How is it possible sir, if, for someone who is totally dedicated to your religion, how is it possible for them to survive in a world that demands people go out to work for a living? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa has helped us. Just like we had no house, but Kṛṣṇa has given us this house through George. Reporter: But I mean, do your followers work, in the . . .? Prabhupāda: No, we do not work like ordinary men. Reporter: But I mean there must be a . . . but we couldn't live our life like this. People have got to work, have they not? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the mistaken philosophy, that people has got to work. That is a mistaken philosophy. Nobody has got to work. Just like work means . . . suppose if you have given me food, bread. I go there and take my food. Do you think it is work? Reporter: No, but somebody has to . . . Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. You have offered me some dish here. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So I go and eat. Do you think it is work? Reporter: No, that isn't work. Prabhupāda: If you think that going from here to that place is work, that is another thing. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But if my food is there, so I have to go and take it. Similarly, for everyone there is food and shelter . . . Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . ordered by God . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but you have to take it. Reporter: But I mean somebody has to make tables and chairs and carpets and . . . Prabhupāda: That is your artificial need. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have created this need. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like other living entities, they also sleep. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But they do not have apartments or nice bedstead, nice table. That has not hampered their sleeping. Reporter: No, no. Prabhupāda: You have created these artificial needs. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But without this, it does not hamper your eating or sleeping. Your . . . your . . . you have got certain amount of energy. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That energy was to be utilized for designating or to search out God. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But you are misusing this energy by . . . for manufacturing table and chair. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can live even without table and chair. Reporter: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: But if you live without God consciousness, then immediately you become to the status of animals. Because they live without God consciousness. Reporter: Yes. Are there any animals which you regard as sacred? I know in the Hindu faith, where the, erm . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is for everyone. But others, they have no brain. Just like cow. We drink cow's milk . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . therefore she is our mother. So how can you kill your mother? Can you? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you kill cows? Because milk you drink. Is that very a gentleman's philosophy? Reporter: Well, the people would starve. Prabhupāda: People are not . . . Reporter: People would starve if we didn't . . . Prabhupāda: Starve? Without eating flesh? Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This is another nonsense. We are not eating flesh. Reporter: What in fact do you eat? Are you vegetarian? Haṁsadūta: Yes, we eat . . . (indistinct) . . . we eat vegetables, fruit, milk products, sugar, grains and nuts. Reporter: Yes, what . . . Haṁsadūta: We don't eat meat, fish or eggs. Reporter: What about alcohol? Haṁsadūta: We follow four principles very strictly: no meat, fish or eggs; we don't take any intoxication whatsoever, no cigarettes, tea or coffee; and we don't indulge in illicit sex life; and we don't gamble. Reporter: What about marriage? Is marriage a part of . . .? Haṁsadūta: Yes, sex life is allowed, but, under condition that one gets himself married, and once married no divorce, no abortion . . . (indistinct) . . . sex life for producing children only. Reporter: Yes. Yes. Yes. How many followers are here, living in the house? Haṁsadūta: About fifty. Reporter: About fifty. What is the breakdown for nationalities? What nationalities are there? Haṁsadūta: Well, most of them, of course, are English, but there are . . . Reporter: And these English who have become followers . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Reporter: English . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . we don't make any distinction here between English . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Everyone is welcome. Reporter: Yes. Before you were given this house, where in fact did you live? Haṁsadūta: We were staying, and we still have, Bury Place, that I told you. Reporter: Yes. I see. Haṁsadūta: 7 Bury Place. So George donated this house because he appreciates the movement. So we are using this house. Reporter: Does George have any position within the movement at all? Haṁsadūta: He doesn't have any. He is a follower. He is helping us. Prabhupāda: He also gave me formerly $19,000, for printing that *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Haṁsadūta: That we showed you. Reporter: When he, and other members of the Beatles, went to India, it was not you that they saw, was it, sir? Prabhupāda: No, I met him here. Reporter: You met him here, yes? Haṁsadūta: George, he paid for the printing of this book. Reporter: Ah, yes. Haṁsadūta: A few years ago. Prabhupāda: In the Preface I have acknowledged. (aside) You show him the Preface. I have acknowledged. Reporter: Spiritually, if he printed the book, that's nice. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . preface. Haṁsadūta: All our books are very nice. "My grateful acknowledgement is due to Śrīmān George Harrison, now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, for his liberal contribution of $19,000 to meet the entire cost of printing this volume. May Kṛṣṇa bestow upon this nice boy further advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Reporter: Is there . . . most of the . . . do you have age limits as far as that is concerned? Haṁsadūta: No. Reporter: I mean, from what age can you become a member? *Haṁsadūta: Well, Prabhupāda is about seventy*-five. (laughs) Reporter: But are you . . . what age do you start? Haṁsadūta: Any age. Even children. Reporter: But I mean most of the followers, I would think, are in their twenties. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they are all between about 16 to 25, you know. Reporter: This is . . . why . . . have you any older members who . . .? Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have older members too. But we have older members who are . . . just like you are. Prabhupāda: Our Bhakti Pramode is another businessman; *he is also sixty*-five. Reporter: Where will you go . . .? What are you doing this week, sir? What are your plans? Prabhupāda: Our plan is . . . Haṁsadūta: We are going to Paris tomorrow. Reporter: Paris? What is happening there? Haṁsadūta: There is a ceremony at our new temple . . . Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . and the mayor of the city of Paris will receive Prabhupāda in city hall. Reporter: I see. And from there what will happen? Haṁsadūta: Then we will come back to London. Reporter: Back to London. And then? *Haṁsadūta: And here at the Manor, on the twenty*-first and twenty-second . . . Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . there is a very big . . . Reporter: August, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . celebration . . . (indistinct) . . . birthday, or appearance day, of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So it is the most important event, a holiday, or . . . Reporter: Yes. I see. Are you hoping to, obviously, get more members in the movement, are you? Haṁsadūta: Well, we want people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious; we want people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And if they just . . . Reporter: Yes . . . what does "Hare Kṛṣṇa" mean? Haṁsadūta: Hare Kṛṣṇa is . . . Hare is the energy of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the name, God, the Personality of Godhead. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa, and Rādhā is also . . . (indistinct) . . . so we are calling to Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, please accept us please engage us in Your service." Reporter: Kṛṣṇa is God? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Reporter: I'm . . . I see . . . hmm. Fine. Do you enjoy life, sir? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Do you enjoy life? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Reporter: I think yes. I think yes. Prabhupāda: Practically, we are enjoying life. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are simply wasting their time for working hard. Reporter: Yes. Do you go outside, sir, or do you stay inside all the time? Prabhupāda: No, if there is important engagement, I go. Reporter: Yes. How do you travel normally? By car or by plane? Prabhupāda: No, any, anything available—plane, car . . . Reporter: Will you be going to Paris in a special plane, or will you be going . . . Haṁsadūta: No. Normal flight. Reporter: Normal flight. Prabhupāda: I came here first by . . . Haṁsadūta: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Helicopter. Haṁsadūta: From the Heliport. Reporter: Oh! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Drop . . . dropped here. Dropped here. Haṁsadūta: Right here on the lawn. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) From the airport, I dropped. Reporter: Are you . . .? Prabhupāda: Within five or ten minutes. Haṁsadūta: You see, we are not against using anything at all . . . (indistinct) . . . because we are engaged in . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa, therefore flying . . . (indistinct) . . . everything we use, but we use it for Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Do people have to pay money to join your group, or do they have to give something? Haṁsadūta: No, they don't . . . they don't have to give something. Reporter: Because I understand with this other movement, if you . . . Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . kingdom of God. So why should you pay? Reporter: Well, this is the point. I just wondered if . . . how . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are making some business. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, it's a business. Prabhupāda: It is not . . . it is a science, it is not . . . Reporter: I am just wondering how in fact you are managing to survive, you know, to . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, just imagine, this house was 220 . . . Haṁsadūta: Thousand Prabhupāda: . . . thousands of pounds. So, suppose a man is working, just like you are working. How long years you will have to take to accumulate this money and purchase this house? How long years? Reporter: I don't know, really. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But we, without doing anything, we have got this house.Yes. Similarly, we are getting our food, nice foodstuff. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, everything is there by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. The foolish people, they do not understand. They unnecessarily work hard. Of course, we do not wish to disclose this. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Ah, but this is the fact. But you can understand that those who are lower than the human being . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they have no business, they have no profession, they have no education, so how they are living? Reporter: Not very well. Prabhupāda: Therefore the birds and beast, they have no education in the university, neither they are professional. Neither they have any accumulated bank account. Nothing of the sort. In the morning they do not know where to eat and where to go, but have you seen ever, any bird has died of starvation? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Ah. So there are 8,400,000 forms of life. The civilized human form of life is one of them. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if 8,000,000 species of life can exist without any endeavor for economic development, why this 400,000 species . . . not 400,000; out of 400,000 species of human form, maybe 200 . . . not even 200, less than that, this is civilized man. So how many there are? Why they are busy? But that's all right, you remain busy, but we should try to understand that simply by endeavoring, one cannot become happy. That is not possible. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Suppose everyone is endeavoring to become very rich man. Does he become so? Reporter: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: So then why? Another man, without doing anything, he is born in a very rich family and he gets money immediately. What is the cause of this distinction? Is there any cause for what is happening, whatever . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: One is born with riches. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one is working hard like an ass. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He cannot get sufficient food even, daily. No. For this difference, is there any cause, or this is happening automatically? Reporter: All people are born with different values . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: Each one has learned particular habits . . . Prabhupāda: Who is judging their values? That is the question. Suppose, if I am judging, "All right, you get one million dollars from him,"I am judging and I give another man, "You should be hanged." The judge . . . the judge is not anyone's enemy, but he says that this man should be hanged and this man should get one million dollars from that person. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, is the judge friend of that man who is awarded one million dollars? And is he enemy to that man who is to be going to be hanged? Reporter: No, it doesn't work quite like that. We don't have hanging in this country . . . Prabhupāda: No, I . . . you are . . . Reporter: No, I see the point you're making. But it doesn't, ah . . . anyway . . . Prabhupāda: But you could not answer this. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: But I am answering so many questions, you should answer this. Reporter: Are you hoping, sir, to get, erm, more followers over here in this country? Prabhupāda: If my movement is genuine, I'll get more. But to become member of our Society is little difficult. Reporter: Is it? Prabhupāda: "Is difficult" means because we have got four kinds of prohibitions. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is not like other camps, that you can do any nonsense and you become a member. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Reporter: A person . . . a person has to be prepared to dedicate his life . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that; *he has to give up meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling. It is very, very difficult. Reporter: What about his family? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Living with family. Does he have to leave home? Prabhupāda: No. He can do . . . but he can live in home with a wife and children on these principles. Reporter: Yes. Do you find, sir, that many people who join you leave very quickly? Prabhupāda: No. He is a gṛhastha , he is a householder. He has got his wife. Reporter: Running out of time. So I did have a photographer with me. I think he would want to take a photograph . . . I think you would like to . . . (indistinct) . . . outside, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) (pause, as things are moved around for a photograph) Prabhupāda: I have . . . (indistinct) . . . put hard question, this . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . they will never accept God. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway. Never mind. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Haṁsadūta: I told you . . . (indistinct) . . . preach, you know. Prabhupāda: Ah. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) (knock on the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? Reporter: He doesn't appear to arrived . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) . . . then we can . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Thank you very much indeed. Prabhupāda: Now give him some prasādam . Haṁsadūta: Take all of it. Reporter: What is it? Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . milk preparation, very nice sweet, and offered to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . nice, eh? Reporter: Thanks very much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Reporter: (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . very clean . . . Reporter: Thank you. Haṁsadūta: Okay. Thank you . . . (indistinct) (reporter leaves) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . principle and principal , they have two meanings. Haṁsadūta: Oh. Prabhupāda: But you have written principal . Haṁsadūta: I see. (Prabhupāda is turning some papers) Prabhupāda: Yes. Just learn from the dictionary, the principal and principle, they are two different words. (end) Interview -- August 7, 1973, London (Interview with Reporter) - (poor recording) Reporter: (indistinct) . . . what happened . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer, who is coming any time, any time now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So I would be grateful if I could just talk to you for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Reporter: Um, the, ah . . . when did you arrive in this country, sir? Prabhupāda: Just . . . these questions, he can answer. *Haṁsadūta: Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . tape*-recorder. *Reporter: Why are you tape*-recording the conversation? *Haṁsadūta: Oh, we tape*-record everything, because everything Prabhupāda says is very important. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . comes from the book. Reporter: I see. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda . . . you want to know when he arrived in London? July seventh. Reporter: July seventh. Is this the first time that he has been . . . Haṁsadūta: No, Prabhupāda has been here often, very often before. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: We have another center downtown. Reporter: In London? Haṁsadūta: Yes, it is 7 Bury Place, right behind the British Museum. Reporter: I see. Yes. And when was this house given to you? Haṁsadūta: Oh, I think in May. George Harrison, he donated this house to Prabhupāda for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Did he in fact . . . how much did he pay for the house? Haṁsadūta: Ah, about £220,000. Reporter: Does he still own the house? Haṁsadūta: Erm . . . it's in a special trust, of which the proceeds go to our society. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: You have to excuse me . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yeah, sure Haṁsadūta: A plug in, and then I can speak with you. Reporter: Ah. What does "prophet" mean? You call him prophet? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda? Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda means the master at whose feet, or at whose lotus feet, all the other masters take shelter. Reporter: Yes. How long has Prapoom been leading this faith? Haṁsadūta: Hmm . . . Reporter: Do you call it a religion, or do you call it a faith? What do you call it? Spiritual movement, is it? Haṁsadūta: Just a minute. (making some technical adjustments) Okay. Prabhupāda, he came to America in 19 . . . 1965. Reporter: Yes. Where did he come from originally? Haṁsadūta: He was born in Calcutta, in India. Reporter: What is his background? Haṁsadūta: He was educated in Scottish Churches, and he was a businessman. Chemical company, manager of a chemical, pharmaceutical supply house. Reporter: Where? In Calcutta? Haṁsadūta: Well, in India, different parts Reporter: India. When was that? Haṁsadūta: That was in . . . (indistinct) . . . in his early life he . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yeah. And when did he start this religion? *Haṁsadūta: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a religion, but Prabhupāda . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very old, you know. The Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken over five thousand years ago. So it is the oldest literature in the world. So Prabhupāda is an ācārya , or spiritual teacher. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: A pure devotee, in the line of disciplic succession . . . Reporter: When . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . which is coming down from Kṛṣṇa. So . . . Reporter: When did he first start doing . . . Haṁsadūta: He came to America in 19 . . . *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-five. Haṁsadūta: 1965, under the order of his spiritual master, to spread this, this eternal teaching in the English language. Reporter: Until that time had he been teaching in the Indian language? Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda has, practically, Prabhupāda has been a devotee from birth. He was born in a family of Vaiṣṇavas, or Kṛṣṇa devotees. Reporter: Yes, I see. Haṁsadūta: And all his life, dedicated to preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Yes, and . . . but what . . . at what stage in his life did he abandon his career in business? Haṁsadūta: In business? Prabhupāda: About sixty . . . I was born in 1896 and I left my home in 1954. 1896 to 1954. *Haṁsadūta: Fifty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I came to America in 1965. But I left my home in 1954. *Reporter: Fifty*-four, yes. This is when you abandoned your career in business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. What made you decide to abandon a career in business? Prabhupāda: This is our system. At a certain age, we must give up our family life. This is Vedic system. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no question of decision. According to Vedic system, a man's duration of life is divided into four. The first portion is called brahmacārī , or student life. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to twenty . . . suppose one man lives, take it for granted, one hundred years. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So first twenty*-five years, he becomes a rigid brahmacārī . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Means completely celibacy. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: And austerity, penance and education. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Up to twenty*-five years. *Reporter: Twenty*-five. Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he becomes married, householder. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he remains up to his fiftieth year. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So within this twenty*-five years, whatever children he gets, they are grown up, so the husband and wife goes out of home . . . Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: . . . touring all over holy places. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, when gradually he becomes unattached to wife also, the wife comes back home and the husband takes sannyāsa , the renounced order. This is the Vedic system. It is not a question of decision; it is the system . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that one should live in this way. Reporter: Yes. Do you have a wife and family, sir? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Can I ask you, how many children do you have? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got two daughters and two sons. Reporter: And your wife, she is still living, is she? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are living at my home in Calcutta. Reporter: You still see them occasionally? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: You don't? Because this is that part of your life, is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So how do you spend your life now, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: How do you spend your life now? Where is your home now? Prabhupāda: My home is in Calcutta. Reporter: But not with your family. Prabhupāda: No, my wife with her children . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they are living in their house in Calcutta. Reporter: In Calcutta, yes. Haṁsadūta: He wants to know what is the nature of your life there . . . Reporter: But you still see . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no, I don't see. Reporter: You don't see them. Haṁsadūta: Right. Prabhupāda: I'm strictly prohibited to see my wife. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: But my children may come and see me. Reporter: But your children may see you, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they come sometimes. Reporter: So you have a home as well, also a home in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And you spend . . . do you travel extensively over the world . . . around the world, I believe. Prabhupāda: Because I am now sannyāsī . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I have no home at all. A sannyāsī is supposed to have no home. He is touring. Just like here, although I am supposed to be the owner of everything . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but I don't possess anything. It is the possession of the Society. Reporter: I see. How many members do you have in your Society? Prabhupāda: We have got many members. About . . . members and admirers, about 10,000, in the Western countries. Reporter: Ten thousand in the Western countries. What about in the East? Haṁsadūta: Everyone. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: East, everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Reporter: I see. Now, there are many movements which seem to emanate from India at the moment in this country. The most popular recently is a Mahārāji*-ji. Now, how do you regard these other . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think he is very popular? Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Do you think so? Reporter: Well, it seems he gets a lot of people at the rallies. They have rallies, and they have many people there. Prabhupāda: But they have no center. We have got about one hundred centers. And in each center . . . (aside) You show. Haṁsadūta: This is our Los Angeles center. Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have got in every center. Haṁsadūta: Los Angeles center. Reporter: In Los Angeles. *Prabhupāda: I don't think this Mahārāj*-ji has got such thing. Reporter: No. But how do you regard these other people? Do you regard them as impostors? Prabhupāda: Yes, because anyone who is not God conscious . . . most of them, they come, they pose themself as God. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is most ludicrous. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: We hate them. *Reporter: They pose themselves as God and like to drive around in Rolls*-Royce cars. *Prabhupāda: Rolls*-Royce car, that is another thing. Anyone can travel . . . but when they say that . . . when somebody says that, "I am God," then immediately we kick on his face. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is the most impostor. And the foolish person only follow them, because they do not know what is God. Reporter: Hmm. Are you . . . are you a rich man, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: Are you a rich man? In financial terms? Prabhupāda: No. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda is a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī means he has renounced everything. He has no money, he doesn't acquire anything. His business is simply to preach the message of Kṛṣṇa. What he is a preacher of God, a servant of God. Reporter: What is the message, in fact, of Kṛṣṇa? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the message . . . Prabhupāda: Message is that everything belongs to God. Even ourself, we belong to God. Therefore everything should be used for satisfying God. This is our message. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have written about more than one dozen books, big books, and such small books about twenty, thirty like this. Small books. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: To help people understand this philosophy. Reporter: yoga is part of the religion? *Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is called bhakti*-yoga . yoga , devotion. yoga of love, love of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: So these, we are publishing at least fifteen books like this. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: They have all authorized scripture. They are more than five thousand years old, these scriptures. And we are distributing them all over the world in different languages, like German, English, Japanese, Hindi, like that. All the pictures and everything are made by our students. Reporter: How do you view the Christian religion? I mean, are these religions valid in your eyes? Prabhupāda: The religion is quite valid, but the followers are not valid. Reporter: No. Because they're not dedicating themselves . . . Prabhupāda: Not only that; they are violating the orders of Jesus Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But they are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So it is very difficult to find out a strict Christian. Reporter: Yes. How is it possible sir, if, for someone who is totally dedicated to your religion, how is it possible for them to survive in a world that demands people go out to work for a living? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa has helped us. Just like we had no house, but Kṛṣṇa has given us this house through George. Reporter: But I mean, do your followers work, in the . . .? Prabhupāda: No, we do not work like ordinary men. Reporter: But I mean there must be a . . . but we couldn't live our life like this. People have got to work, have they not? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the mistaken philosophy, that people has got to work. That is a mistaken philosophy. Nobody has got to work. Just like work means . . . suppose if you have given me food, bread. I go there and take my food. Do you think it is work? Reporter: No, but somebody has to . . . Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. You have offered me some dish here. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So I go and eat. Do you think it is work? Reporter: No, that isn't work. Prabhupāda: If you think that going from here to that place is work, that is another thing. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But if my food is there, so I have to go and take it. Similarly, for everyone there is food and shelter . . . Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . ordered by God . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but you have to take it. Reporter: But I mean somebody has to make tables and chairs and carpets and . . . Prabhupāda: That is your artificial need. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have created this need. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like other living entities, they also sleep. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But they do not have apartments or nice bedstead, nice table. That has not hampered their sleeping. Reporter: No, no. Prabhupāda: You have created these artificial needs. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But without this, it does not hamper your eating or sleeping. Your . . . your . . . you have got certain amount of energy. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That energy was to be utilized for designating or to search out God. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But you are misusing this energy by . . . for manufacturing table and chair. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can live even without table and chair. Reporter: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: But if you live without God consciousness, then immediately you become to the status of animals. Because they live without God consciousness. Reporter: Yes. Are there any animals which you regard as sacred? I know in the Hindu faith, where the, erm . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is for everyone. But others, they have no brain. Just like cow. We drink cow's milk . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . therefore she is our mother. So how can you kill your mother? Can you? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you kill cows? Because milk you drink. Is that very a gentleman's philosophy? Reporter: Well, the people would starve. Prabhupāda: People are not . . . Reporter: People would starve if we didn't . . . Prabhupāda: Starve? Without eating flesh? Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This is another nonsense. We are not eating flesh. Reporter: What in fact do you eat? Are you vegetarian? Haṁsadūta: Yes, we eat . . . (indistinct) . . . we eat vegetables, fruit, milk products, sugar, grains and nuts. Reporter: Yes, what . . . Haṁsadūta: We don't eat meat, fish or eggs. Reporter: What about alcohol? Haṁsadūta: We follow four principles very strictly: no meat, fish or eggs; we don't take any intoxication whatsoever, no cigarettes, tea or coffee; and we don't indulge in illicit sex life; and we don't gamble. Reporter: What about marriage? Is marriage a part of . . .? Haṁsadūta: Yes, sex life is allowed, but, under condition that one gets himself married, and once married no divorce, no abortion . . . (indistinct) . . . sex life for producing children only. Reporter: Yes. Yes. Yes. How many followers are here, living in the house? Haṁsadūta: About fifty. Reporter: About fifty. What is the breakdown for nationalities? What nationalities are there? Haṁsadūta: Well, most of them, of course, are English, but there are . . . Reporter: And these English who have become followers . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Reporter: English . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . we don't make any distinction here between English . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Everyone is welcome. Reporter: Yes. Before you were given this house, where in fact did you live? Haṁsadūta: We were staying, and we still have, Bury Place, that I told you. Reporter: Yes. I see. Haṁsadūta: 7 Bury Place. So George donated this house because he appreciates the movement. So we are using this house. Reporter: Does George have any position within the movement at all? Haṁsadūta: He doesn't have any. He is a follower. He is helping us. Prabhupāda: He also gave me formerly $19,000, for printing that *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Haṁsadūta: That we showed you. Reporter: When he, and other members of the Beatles, went to India, it was not you that they saw, was it, sir? Prabhupāda: No, I met him here. Reporter: You met him here, yes? Haṁsadūta: George, he paid for the printing of this book. Reporter: Ah, yes. Haṁsadūta: A few years ago. Prabhupāda: In the Preface I have acknowledged. (aside) You show him the Preface. I have acknowledged. Reporter: Spiritually, if he printed the book, that's nice. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . preface. Haṁsadūta: All our books are very nice. "My grateful acknowledgement is due to Śrīmān George Harrison, now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, for his liberal contribution of $19,000 to meet the entire cost of printing this volume. May Kṛṣṇa bestow upon this nice boy further advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Reporter: Is there . . . most of the . . . do you have age limits as far as that is concerned? Haṁsadūta: No. Reporter: I mean, from what age can you become a member? *Haṁsadūta: Well, Prabhupāda is about seventy*-five. (laughs) Reporter: But are you . . . what age do you start? Haṁsadūta: Any age. Even children. Reporter: But I mean most of the followers, I would think, are in their twenties. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they are all between about 16 to 25, you know. Reporter: This is . . . why . . . have you any older members who . . .? Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have older members too. But we have older members who are . . . just like you are. Prabhupāda: Our Bhakti Pramode is another businessman; *he is also sixty*-five. Reporter: Where will you go . . .? What are you doing this week, sir? What are your plans? Prabhupāda: Our plan is . . . Haṁsadūta: We are going to Paris tomorrow. Reporter: Paris? What is happening there? Haṁsadūta: There is a ceremony at our new temple . . . Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . and the mayor of the city of Paris will receive Prabhupāda in city hall. Reporter: I see. And from there what will happen? Haṁsadūta: Then we will come back to London. Reporter: Back to London. And then? *Haṁsadūta: And here at the Manor, on the twenty*-first and twenty-second . . . Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . there is a very big . . . Reporter: August, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . celebration . . . (indistinct) . . . birthday, or appearance day, of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So it is the most important event, a holiday, or . . . Reporter: Yes. I see. Are you hoping to, obviously, get more members in the movement, are you? Haṁsadūta: Well, we want people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious; we want people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And if they just . . . Reporter: Yes . . . what does "Hare Kṛṣṇa" mean? Haṁsadūta: Hare Kṛṣṇa is . . . Hare is the energy of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the name, God, the Personality of Godhead. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa, and Rādhā is also . . . (indistinct) . . . so we are calling to Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, please accept us please engage us in Your service." Reporter: Kṛṣṇa is God? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Reporter: I'm . . . I see . . . hmm. Fine. Do you enjoy life, sir? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Do you enjoy life? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Reporter: I think yes. I think yes. Prabhupāda: Practically, we are enjoying life. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are simply wasting their time for working hard. Reporter: Yes. Do you go outside, sir, or do you stay inside all the time? Prabhupāda: No, if there is important engagement, I go. Reporter: Yes. How do you travel normally? By car or by plane? Prabhupāda: No, any, anything available—plane, car . . . Reporter: Will you be going to Paris in a special plane, or will you be going . . . Haṁsadūta: No. Normal flight. Reporter: Normal flight. Prabhupāda: I came here first by . . . Haṁsadūta: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Helicopter. Haṁsadūta: From the Heliport. Reporter: Oh! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Drop . . . dropped here. Dropped here. Haṁsadūta: Right here on the lawn. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) From the airport, I dropped. Reporter: Are you . . .? Prabhupāda: Within five or ten minutes. Haṁsadūta: You see, we are not against using anything at all . . . (indistinct) . . . because we are engaged in . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa, therefore flying . . . (indistinct) . . . everything we use, but we use it for Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Do people have to pay money to join your group, or do they have to give something? Haṁsadūta: No, they don't . . . they don't have to give something. Reporter: Because I understand with this other movement, if you . . . Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . kingdom of God. So why should you pay? Reporter: Well, this is the point. I just wondered if . . . how . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are making some business. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, it's a business. Prabhupāda: It is not . . . it is a science, it is not . . . Reporter: I am just wondering how in fact you are managing to survive, you know, to . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, just imagine, this house was 220 . . . Haṁsadūta: Thousand Prabhupāda: . . . thousands of pounds. So, suppose a man is working, just like you are working. How long years you will have to take to accumulate this money and purchase this house? How long years? Reporter: I don't know, really. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But we, without doing anything, we have got this house.Yes. Similarly, we are getting our food, nice foodstuff. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, everything is there by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. The foolish people, they do not understand. They unnecessarily work hard. Of course, we do not wish to disclose this. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Ah, but this is the fact. But you can understand that those who are lower than the human being . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they have no business, they have no profession, they have no education, so how they are living? Reporter: Not very well. Prabhupāda: Therefore the birds and beast, they have no education in the university, neither they are professional. Neither they have any accumulated bank account. Nothing of the sort. In the morning they do not know where to eat and where to go, but have you seen ever, any bird has died of starvation? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Ah. So there are 8,400,000 forms of life. The civilized human form of life is one of them. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if 8,000,000 species of life can exist without any endeavor for economic development, why this 400,000 species . . . not 400,000; out of 400,000 species of human form, maybe 200 . . . not even 200, less than that, this is civilized man. So how many there are? Why they are busy? But that's all right, you remain busy, but we should try to understand that simply by endeavoring, one cannot become happy. That is not possible. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Suppose everyone is endeavoring to become very rich man. Does he become so? Reporter: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: So then why? Another man, without doing anything, he is born in a very rich family and he gets money immediately. What is the cause of this distinction? Is there any cause for what is happening, whatever . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: One is born with riches. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one is working hard like an ass. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He cannot get sufficient food even, daily. No. For this difference, is there any cause, or this is happening automatically? Reporter: All people are born with different values . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: Each one has learned particular habits . . . Prabhupāda: Who is judging their values? That is the question. Suppose, if I am judging, "All right, you get one million dollars from him,"I am judging and I give another man, "You should be hanged." The judge . . . the judge is not anyone's enemy, but he says that this man should be hanged and this man should get one million dollars from that person. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, is the judge friend of that man who is awarded one million dollars? And is he enemy to that man who is to be going to be hanged? Reporter: No, it doesn't work quite like that. We don't have hanging in this country . . . Prabhupāda: No, I . . . you are . . . Reporter: No, I see the point you're making. But it doesn't, ah . . . anyway . . . Prabhupāda: But you could not answer this. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: But I am answering so many questions, you should answer this. Reporter: Are you hoping, sir, to get, erm, more followers over here in this country? Prabhupāda: If my movement is genuine, I'll get more. But to become member of our Society is little difficult. Reporter: Is it? Prabhupāda: "Is difficult" means because we have got four kinds of prohibitions. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is not like other camps, that you can do any nonsense and you become a member. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Reporter: A person . . . a person has to be prepared to dedicate his life . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that; *he has to give up meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling. It is very, very difficult. Reporter: What about his family? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Living with family. Does he have to leave home? Prabhupāda: No. He can do . . . but he can live in home with a wife and children on these principles. Reporter: Yes. Do you find, sir, that many people who join you leave very quickly? Prabhupāda: No. He is a gṛhastha , he is a householder. He has got his wife. Reporter: Running out of time. So I did have a photographer with me. I think he would want to take a photograph . . . I think you would like to . . . (indistinct) . . . outside, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) (pause, as things are moved around for a photograph) Prabhupāda: I have . . . (indistinct) . . . put hard question, this . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . they will never accept God. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway. Never mind. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Haṁsadūta: I told you . . . (indistinct) . . . preach, you know. Prabhupāda: Ah. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) (knock on the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? Reporter: He doesn't appear to arrived . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) . . . then we can . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Thank you very much indeed. Prabhupāda: Now give him some prasādam . Haṁsadūta: Take all of it. Reporter: What is it? Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . milk preparation, very nice sweet, and offered to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . nice, eh? Reporter: Thanks very much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Reporter: (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . very clean . . . Reporter: Thank you. Haṁsadūta: Okay. Thank you . . . (indistinct) (reporter leaves) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . principle and principal , they have two meanings. Haṁsadūta: Oh. Prabhupāda: But you have written principal . Haṁsadūta: I see. (Prabhupāda is turning some papers) Prabhupāda: Yes. Just learn from the dictionary, the principal and principle, they are two different words. (end) Car Conversation after meeting with Cardinal Danielou -- August 9, 1973, Paris Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Excuse me? *Prabhupāda: That the animal*-eater is going to become a tiger to get more facility. Yogeśvara: He liked the example. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is fact. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram... [Bg. 8.6]. Animal*-eaters, they'll become tiger, fox, cats, dogs. This is, they'll become. What are these different species of life? Yogeśvara: They do not, they do not accept that the soul exists below the human level. Prabhupāda: And that is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. Why does not exist? What is the proof of existence of the soul in the body? What is the proof? First of all, you have to understand that. Suppose I am a human being, so... Yogeśvara: (to driver) You know where to go? Prabhupāda: I am a human being. You accept that I have got soul. By what symptoms you accept that I have got soul? First of all you have to ascertain that. What is the symptom that we agree that I am human being. I have got, I am a soul. By what characteristic, analytical study, you accept that I have got soul, and the dog has not got soul? What are the different characteristics? First of all, we have to enumerate that thing. If we find in the characteristics, then we can say there is no soul. But if we see that both the animal and the human being have the same characteristics of living condition, then how you can say the animal has not soul? Yogeśvara: His point was that the animals don't show the same symptoms. They don't think as... Prabhupāda: Why not, why not? The general symptom is animal eats, you eat, animal sleeps, you sleep, animal has sex, you have got sex, animal also defends, you also defend. Where is the difference? Yogeśvara: His point was that human beings, they think on higher platforms than animals do. Prabhupāda: What that higher platform? Eating, you require to maintain the body. I eat something, you eat another. That does not mean higher or lower. You eat, I also eat. That's all. You eat according to your taste. I eat according to my taste. So the eating is the real symptom, not the varieties of eating. By varieties of eating, suppose I... A animal, the cow is eating grass, and you are eating the same animal by keeping a huge slaughterhouse with machines and... Does it mean that you have improved your eating process? Simply by having big, big machine and ghastly scenes. And the animal eats simple grass. Does it mean that you are advanced than the animals? There is no logic. Eating is eating. One man's food, another man's poison. That is another thing. But eating is there. Somebody eats poison. Somebody eats ordinary thing. But eating is there. So nobody can avoid eating. That is the main symptom. Even in human society, there are different varieties of food. We Indians, we like a different type of dish. European, Americans, they like a di... But eating is there. Either American, Indian or cats, dogs, eating must be there. That is real symptom. After eating, you must sleep. That is essential. So where is the difference of real character, characteristic between the animals and the human beings? *Yogeśvara: Then his point was that we find God's creatures, many of them, not just human beings, but it's a symptom of life everywhere that meat*-eating is allowed. There are many creations, he said, many species... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Eating, that is another thing. First of all, if the, point is that you say that the animals have no soul. So what is the special point that you are speaking of the animals having no soul? You eat meat, or I eat rice, that doesn't matter, but eating is there. That is the common thing. You cannot say the animal does not eat or man does not eat. Only animal eats. No. Everyone eats. First of all, you enunciate: how do you say that the human being has got soul and the animal has not soul? What are the special symptoms? Yogeśvara: His, his point was that only in humans do we find a metaphysical search for the meaning of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: And that's the only difference. *Prabhupāda: The metaphysical search... Now metaphysically search out why do you deny soul in the human being, uh, in the animals? That is metaphysical. It is metaphysical question. What is your metaphysical study about the living, uh, animals that you say there is no soul? Come to the metaphysical then. You are thinking metaphysically. That's all right. But if you are still thinking like animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical studies? If you are thinking like the animals: "Where shall I get my food? Where shall I take shelter? Where shall I have sexual facility? How shall I defend?" If you are thinking like that, this is animal thinking. Metaphysical thinking means beyond this, beyond this thinking of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is metaphysical thinking. So what you are thinking beyond that? That is God consciousness. When a human being thinks about God, that is metaphysical. When he thinks like animals about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is not metaphysical. Metaphysical. What do you mean by metaphysical? How to define? What is the meaning of "meta"? Above physical. That means spiritual. So if you think spiritually, then you'll see. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa claims: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. "In all forms of life, the living entities are there, and they are My sons." So this is metaphysical, or if some third-class man says that there is no soul in the animal, that is metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? Kṛṣṇa speaking will be metaphysical, or a third-class fool's statement will be taken as metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? First of all say me. Yogeśvara: Then he made the point that in a place like India it's foolish where so many people are dying of starvation, not to kill the cow on some religious principle. Prabhupāda: That is another story. No Indians are dying, not by eating cow's flesh. That, that is the theory at the present moment given. But there are so many vegetarians in India. They do not touch even fish, or eggs, or animal flesh. They're quite healthy. It does not mean... Yogeśvara: I think his answer would be that vegetarianism is reserved to the rich people who can afford it. That if you're poor, you have to eat whatever you can get. Prabhupāda: Well. Now in India, meat is selling at high price than vegetable. Yes. Yogeśvara: He said now in India meat is selling at a higher price than vegetables. Prabhupāda: That is no logic. Yogeśvara: Not logic. Prabhupāda: Price of meat is higher than milk and vegetables. So in that consideration, why not take vegetable and milk. Why you go to meat? So she is driving taxi, girls also drive taxi? Yogeśvara: Oh, yes. Satsvarūpa: In New York City, they also drive taxi. Prabhupāda: Girls? Satsvarūpa: Yes. They get more business. (end) Room Conversation with Cardinal Danielou -- August 9, 1973, Paris Prabhupāda: ...this is the third time. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: I have come here today. (heavy static) [break] Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. Cardinal Danielou: Yes sir. Prabhupāda: You know Vṛndāvana? Cardinal Danielou: In the north, north India. Prabhupāda: North India. Cardinal Danielou: North India, North India. You have here the center of your...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got my center here. Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the address, our center? Yogeśvara: It's 4, Rue le Seuer. (French) Cardinal Danielou: (French) You have the temple of Kṛṣṇa? Yogeśvara: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: You have a community in Paris? Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: We shall install Deity tomorrow morning. So... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, you... Prabhupāda: Have you got time to attend? Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yogeśvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: Ah... I don't know. Perhaps. What, what, what, at quel heur, what time? Yogeśvara: Nine o'clock. Cardinal Danielou: Nine o'clock, nine o' clock. Nine o'clock is perhaps difficult. Prabhupāda: Nine... Cardinal Danielou: Nine, it is... Prabhupāda: Nine to twelve, the ceremony... Cardinal Danielou: Ah, nine to twelve. Perhaps. In the end of the morning, perhaps it is... It is an inauguration, inauguration? Prabhupāda: Yes. Deity installation. Bhagavān: We have a beautiful form of Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa... Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct) of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, yes. Bhagavān: Installed in our temple. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, this is very, very, very beautiful. Yes, I would be very glad to visit you. You was in the Hotel De Ville of Paris this afternoon? Yogeśvara: Yes, we just came from the Hotel De Ville. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. A very nice reception, the Hotel De Ville. *Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda spoke on our philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā. *Cardinal Danielou: Oh, Bhagavad*-gītā, yes, yes, yes... Bhagavān: People were very interested. Our spiritual concept of soul, he spoke on. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. It is a... Personally I like very much Hinduism. And I have a brother, (indistinct), it is my brother, who is a specialist on Hinduism... Bhagavān: Yes, his brother has written a very great book which is known all over France... Cardinal Danielou: Especially on Indian music, Indian music. He live many years in Benares. Prabhupāda: Benares. Cardinal Danielou: Benares. Fifteen years. Fifteen years in Benares. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was in fifteen years? Cardinal Danielou: Oh, yes, a very long time. Oh yes. Very long time. Yes. And after he, he worked in Pondicherry and each year he comes in India. Yes. Yes. He's very well known in India for his works, especially about Indian music, but also Indian spirituality, the yogas, Indian gods and all question concerning India. Yes. Prabhupāda: Where he is now? Cardinal Danielou: He's now in Rome, in Rome, in Rome. He, he had especially in Greece language not in French. He lived in Rome, in Berlin. You visited Italy, Italy yourself? Prabhupāda: Not yet. Cardinal Danielou: No. Not yet, not yet. France. France... Prabhupāda: I've got invitation from the secretary... Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Bhagavān: We are beginning one branch in Italy. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Bhagavān: Your brother, he has acquired a little philosophy from India. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, very acquainted with Indian philosophy and religion. He read very well Sanskrit and... Prabhupāda: Oh, he knows Sanskrit? Cardinal Danielou: Oh, yes, oh yes. He knows very, very well, oh, very well. He speaks Indian modern language, Hindi, Bengali, and Tamil. Prabhupāda: Bengali? Cardinal Danielou: Tamil. Prabhupāda: I am Bengali. Cardinal Danielou: It is... Prabhupāda: He's a linguist scholar. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, very scholar. It is first time you visit France? Prabhupāda: This is the third time. Bhagavān: Third time, trois. Cardinal Danielou: Trois fois, trois fois, trois fois. Yogeśvara: Our spiritual master was very interested when I informed him that you have had several meetings with political leaders of France as well, that you have, that your interests extend into government and politics as well as religion. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So our Vedic conception of politics. The king is the representative of God. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: King. Cardinal Danielou: King, yes. *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā... (Aside) Bring glass of water. Bhagavān: We can get glass of water? Frenchman: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: Glass... Bhagavān: Do you understand English enough to...? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, I understand, very well I understand some... Prabhupāda: The king, this creation, God created this material world. What is the purpose? What is the purpose of creation? There must be some plan. When you manufacture something, do something, there must be plan. So what is the plan behind this cosmic manifestation? Cardinal Danielou: Yes. What is this plant like? Yes. Yes sir. Yes. Prabhupāda: What Christianity says about this plan? Cardinal Danielou: Christianity thinks that creation is the work of the love of God, and the signification of creation is that God wants to partake His richness, His joy, His beauty with free spirit and the goal of the creation is essentially the realization of this communion with God, the communion with God. Alors, the visible world is without great importance. It is an appearance. But there is a reality in human person, in human personality, because human personality is, has a... Yogeśvara: If you like I can translate. (Paraphrase) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. You understand, you understand what I say? Or not very well? (French) Prabhupāda: So the creation... We are, we all living entities, we are also part and parcel of God. Yogeśvara: (Translation) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Prabhupāda: Just like this finger... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, is a... Prabhupāda: Part and parcel of this body. Similarly everything... Cardinal Danielou: Is a part. Prabhupāda: Part and parcel of God. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: So the part and parcel of the God, the living entity, it's business is to render service to God. Cardinal Danielou: To...? Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. I agree, I agree. Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, but its business is to serve the body. I ask the finger: "Come here." It is doing like that. I ask the finger to: "Come here." It is doing like that. So it is the business of the finger is to serve the whole. It is part. And the body is the whole. Therefore the business of the part and parcel is to serve, render service to the whole. This is natural condition. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: I agree with this... Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And I think that the vocation of each creature is the service of God, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: The service of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So when the living entity forgets this business, that is material life. Cardinal Danielou: That is...? Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (agrees in French) Prabhupāda: Therefore in this material world we find almost everyone has forgotten God. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (agrees in French) Prabhupāda: The conclusion is that this material world is created... Cardinal Danielou: Created... Prabhupāda: Created for the forgotten souls. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: And here the business is to again revive them to God consciousness. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: So the process of enlightening the living entities, especially the human being, because in the animal form of life, one cannot be enlightened. Neither the animal can understand what is God. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: It is only the human being who can understand. If he's trained, then he can come to God consciousness. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes, It is so. Prabhupāda: So this creation is meant for the forgotten souls to give them a chance for reviving their God consciousness. Yogeśvara: Is it clear? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, it is clear. It is very, very clear. Very clear. Prabhupāda: And for this business, sometimes God personally comes. Sometimes He sends His representative, His son, or His devotee, His servant. This is going on. God wants that these forgotten souls should come back to home, back to Godhead. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore from His side, that is constant endeavor to revive their God consciousness. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Now this God consciousness can be awakened in the human form of life, not in other form of life. Cardinal Danielou: Not in the... Prabhupāda: Maybe very rarely, but the human being... (aside:) Where is the water? Yogeśvara: She said she was coming with it... Prabhupāda: Ācchā. The human being has got the prerogative to awaken his dormant God consciousness. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: So the best service to humanity is to awaken their God consciousness. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, it is true, it is true. Prabhupāda: Best service. Cardinal Danielou: It is the necessity of internal conversion, yes, for human, human souls to return to God. But do you think that this, the personality of human soul is a personality permanent? That is, we remain always distinct, not separate from God, but distinct of God? Prabhupāda: Distinct. Cardinal Danielou: Distinct of God. Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like you are distinct from me, I am distinct from you. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Like that. Cardinal Danielou: We are distinct from God in a certain sense. Prabhupāda: But as I am the individual being, similarly God is also individual being. Cardinal Danielou: Individual being, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Being. That is the Vedic statement, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is also a living entity. Cardinal Danielou: Living, God is living. Prabhupāda: Living entity. Cardinal Danielou: Living, living. Prabhupāda: And we are also living entities. But He's singular number, we are plural number. Yogeśvara: Il est unique, nous sont nombre. Cardinal Danielou: But do you think that really God love human beings and...? Prabhupāda: God loves... Cardinal Danielou: Love... Prabhupāda: ...every living entity. Cardinal Danielou: God love, love, love... Prabhupāda: Not only human beings, but also... Cardinal Danielou: And you think that the origin of creation is, comment dit pecher? Yogeśvara: Do you believe that the origin of this creation is a sin? Cardinal Danielou: Is a sin, a sin... Yogeśvara: A sin. Cardinal Danielou: A sin of man or is the love of God? What is the origin? Yogeśvara: Is this creation...? Prabhupāda: When, when the living entity forgets love of God, he's given this material world. Cardinal Danielou: Yes yes, I agree. Christianity agrees with this. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Is true. The man must imitate God, imitating His bounty, His... Prabhupāda: Power. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. His mind and His knowledge of the spiritual sense. But it is possible to man without the helping of God to realize his perfection? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Cardinal Danielou: It is necessary that the grace of God help the... *Prabhupāda: Yes. By the help of God, he can revive. That is stated in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta... Cardinal Danielou: Because man is, himself, is not capable to attain... Prabhupāda: No. Cardinal Danielou: ...the divinity. Prabhupāda: By the help of Kṛṣṇa... Cardinal Danielou: (aside in French) Prabhupāda: By the help of God, and by the help of master, spiritual master... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. Spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: Spiritual master is very important. The guru, you say, yes. *Prabhupāda: Guru, yes. That is the very word used. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. One revives his God consciousness by the mercy of God and guru. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, in Christianity, we speak of spiritual fathers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: Spiritual father, spiritual father. We... He is a man who has a good experience of spiritual things and communicate his experience to others. Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. (etc.) Cardinal Danielou: You know. We are in Christianity monks, monks. We live in monastery. Prabhupāda: Ah, monks. Cardinal Danielou: Monastery, yes. With contemplative life and austerity of life. And we have many, many monastery in France. Some Benedict, some Benedict and... Prabhupāda: Where he has gone to take the water from, Arabian Sea? Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's mercy. I can change the tape. [break] Cardinal Danielou: ...leader of the Kṛṣṇa community? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. But there are in India other community of Viṣṇu...? Prabhupāda: The same, the same. Cardinal Danielou: The same. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, the same. Cardinal Danielou: The same. Yogeśvara: Here's some water. Cardinal Danielou: Water. Yogeśvara: That's O.K. Would you like some water yourself? Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So material world is meant for persons... Cardinal Danielou: Thanks. Prabhupāda: You can give me little more. Yes. Cardinal Danielou: You are in India today a religious life, or...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm sannyāsī. Cardinal Danielou: But there is no, no atheism, literate, some atheism, atheism, atheism, religious indifference, materialists exist in the towns, in the towns...? Prabhupāda: Now there are many atheists. Cardinal Danielou: Many atheists, yes. In France, we have this problem. In France, the greatest parts of the, of, of children are baptized and trained... Prabhupāda: Give me little more. Cardinal Danielou: In France, the greatest part of children are baptized and receive a religious education, the religious training, the great part. The atheism is chiefly, amongst intellectuals. Not... Prabhupāda: Ah! Not in the mass. Cardinal Danielou: Not in the... No, not in the mass. Prabhupāda: The same thing.... Cardinal Danielou: The intellectuals are always a little extravagant. And the mass, the mass, remain religious. Yes, yes. Very religious, very religious. Yogeśvara: But still we find that the French young people today are at the head of all the revolutionary philosophies and movements. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. But it is not the majority of the young men and this revolutionary spirit is amongst many youths, some research, research of the Absolute. Some young men are communist and Marxist, surely. But many youths, today have a spirit of research factually. In, insatisfied with actual religious forms, but receives any religious experience, a spiritual experience... Prabhupāda: That is the latest thing. They are now disgusted with these religious rituals without philosophy. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, it is so, it is so. They have accepted some formalism, ritualism. They do not like this. But receives a personal and internal experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: But you have a great interest in France amongst (about) the yoga, monk, Indian method of prayer, a great interest. And we, we think that the method of prayer are the same in the various religions. We have in Christian faith method of meditation of interior, interiorite, of silence. Bhagavān: What is the, what is the program that Christianity has for giving people in general this experience that they're missing? Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Bien. Cest, nous avons... We have today many community of prayers where young men go together and in the monastery or in the... N'est ce pas? And pray together with alternative of silence and of lectures, of some text of the Bible and of the gospel, you know. Because we, we think that the life of Jesus is the model or the shape, and we like that Jesus is the manifestation of God. He is the way, the way. Because it is necessary to find God, who is hidden, to have a way, to have a way. And for ourself, Jesus is the way to go to the hidden God. You know, you know. The imitation of Jesus is, for a Christian, the ideal, imitation of his poverty, of his goodness, of his love of God. Yogeśvara: He says the ideal of Christianity is to imitate these various qualities of Lord Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I think it is the character specific of Christianity, the importance of the person of Jesus. Jesus is the perfect model, you know, of the virtues, and it is apply the model on the savior because we think that Jesus is not purely man. He is a manifestation of God. God is gone amongst us to help the man to find Him. We know that the man research God, but his capacity of find, and is necessary that God come to help the man to find Him. Bhagavān: We call that guru. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And Jesus, Jesus is this. So I am very, very glad to meet you... Prabhupāda: May, may I ask you one question? Jesus says: "Thou shalt not kill." So why Christian people are killing? Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogeśvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: It is forbidden in Christianity to kill. Surely. But chiefly we think that there is a difference between the life of man and the life the beasts. N'est ce pas? And that the life of man is sacred because man is the image of God. But we have not the same respect relating to the beasts, to the animals, and we think that the animals are at the service of man, and that it is legitime to man. For us, each life is not the same. What is really important is the life of man, and the human person is really sacred and it is forbidden to kill a human person... Prabhupāda: No, but Jesus does not says "human being". He just said generally: "Thou shalt not kill." Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (French) In the Bible we have many example of, by example, we have many sacrifice in the sacrifice of animals. You know. Many sacrifice of animals in the Bible. Alors. This is not forbidden. It is sure that it is a great sin to kill a man, alors. There is surely the great question of the war, the war, the national war. And is, it is... Prabhupāda: You, you, you think that to kill an animal is no sin? Cardinal Danielou: No, no, no. No sin. No sin. No sin. Because we think that the simple biologic life is not sacred. That is, what is sacred is the human life, the human life. But not the life, ass. Prabhupāda: But I think that it is interpretation. Jesus Christ says generally: "Thou shalt not kill." Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Jesus said, but this phrase is not, the text is not a text of Jesus. It is a text of the Old Testament, and it is a text... Prabhupāda: No, it is New Testament also. Cardinal Danielou: Old Testament! Old Testament. Prabhupāda: No, is it not in the New Testament? Cardinal Danielou: It is in the Levitic, in the Levitic, in the book of the Levitic. Prabhupāda: Ahhh. Cardinal Danielou: It is not a word of Jesus. It is a word of the Levitic, and it is a part of the decalogue of the Ten Commandments what God gave to Moses. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But Ten Commandments, one of the Commandments is that: "Thou shalt no kill." Yogeśvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: (French) Mais, it is surely, I think, it is surely the killing of the man. I think, I have a great difficulty to understand why in Indian religion... Because it is impossible... By example, it is necessary, pour la nourriture? Yogeśvara: For food. Cardinal Danielou: Oui. For the food of man to eat, to eat, and... Prabhupāda: Man can eat grains, food grains, fruits, milk, sugar, wheat... Cardinal Danielou: Not, not, (French)? Yogeśvara: No flesh? Cardinal Danielou: No flesh? Prabhupāda: No. Why? Just like the fruits. The fruits are meant for human being. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. So tiger's food is another animal. Man's food is fruit, food grains, milk products. Just like fruit... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. I understand. It is why because grain and plants are also living beings. Prabhupāda: That's all right, that's all right. Cardinal Danielou: Living beings. Prabhupāda: That, that we also understand. But if, if you cannot live... Just like, generally, if I can live on fruits and grains and milk, why should I kill another animal? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes... Prabhupāda: Another thing is that how can you support that animal killing is not sin? Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (French) Bhagavān: How do you justify it? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, because we, we thought that there is a difference of nature between life of man, life of spirit, and biological, biological life. And we say... [break] ...not really exists, and we think so. We think that animals, plant are not real beings, are world of appearance and that you human person only is real being. And that in this sense, the material world is without importance. Prabhupāda: Now..., I follow. Suppose you are living in this house. So you are not this house, that's a fact. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: But if I come and break your house, is it not inconvenience for you? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely. Surely it is inconvenient. Prabhupāda: So if I cause inconvenience unto you, is it not criminal? Cardinal Danielou: It is inconvenient to me, but is... Prabhupāda: No. If I cause some inconvenience to you, is it not criminal? Is it not sinful? Cardinal Danielou: I think if there is a serious reason, it is not the destruction of the spiritual man itself. By example, it is perfectly possible to use of the reality of the material world, of the natural world to the valuable finality of human vocation. We think that the question is a question of motivation. It could exist bad reason to kill an animal. But if the killing of animal is to give food to children, men, women, we ont faim. Qui...? Devotee: Hungry. *Cardinal Danielou: Hungry, we are hungry, it is legitimate, legitimate... We have... It is difficult to admit that in India, comment dit*-on les vaches? Yogeśvara: The cows. Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the cows. Prabhupāda: One thing is... Danielou: It is not permitted to kill a...? Yogeśvara: Cow. Cardinal Danielou: ...a cow to give him to children who are hungry and the... Prabhupāda: No, no, from any other consideration, cows' milk we drink. Therefore she's mother. Is it not? Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Yogeśvara: N'est ce pas? Cardinal Danielou: Oui, yes, surely, surely, but the... *Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conversion, we have got seven mothers. Ātma*-mātā, the original mother, guroḥ patnī, wife of the master, spiritual master... Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Bhagavān: Can you understand? Yogeśvara: (translates) *Prabhupāda: Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī, the wife of the priest. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: *Prabhupāda: Rāja*-patnikā, the wife of king, the queen. Yogeśvara: (translates) *Prabhupāda: Four. Ātma*-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī rāja-patnikā, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhātrī. Dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī means earth. These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because we drink milk, cow's milk. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: How can I deny that she's not mother? So how we can support killing of mother? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, it is a motive. But we think that... *Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, those who are meat*-eaters, they are advised... That is also under restriction. Advised to kill some lower animals like goats, even up to buffaloes. But cow killing is the greatest sin. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, we... I know this. I know this. And this is for us a difficulty, a difficulty... Prabhupāda: Yes, because the cow is mother. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes... Prabhupāda: You, you take the milk from the mother... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: And when she's old, she cannot give you milk, therefore she should be killed? Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is that very good proposal? Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, oui. Yogeśvara: He says yes, it is. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says: "Yes, it is a good proposition." Cardinal Danielou: If, if the men are hungry, it is the life of men is more important than the life of cow. Prabhupāda: Therefore, because we are propagating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we ask people to, not to eat meat, any kind. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: But if, under certain circumstances, you are obliged to eat meat, eat the flesh of some lower animals. Don't kill cows. It is the greatest sin. And so long one will be sinful, he'll not be able to understand what is God. But human being, main business is to understand God and to love Him. But if he remains sinful, neither he can understand God, and what to, what is the question of loving Him. Therefore at least from the human society, this cruel maintenance of slaughterhouses must be stopped. Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. I think that this is perhaps not an essential point. I think that in this realm the uses of various religions can be good. The importance is to love God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: But the commandment practical can be various. Prabhupāda: No. Just like God, if God says that: "You can do this," that is not sin. But if God says that: "You cannot do it", then it is sin. Cardinal Danielou: When God says that it is not good to Indian, and says to the Jews that it is... Prabhupāda: No, no. Now take... Therefore I say that Jesus Christ, either you call him God, or confidential representative of God, both of them are one, when he says: "Thou shalt not kill," why should we interpret in an another way, to our convenience? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, but Jesus eated (French, refers to passover lamb) Yogeśvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: Mutton, mutton. Yogeśvara: Oh, the sheep. Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the sheeps... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but Jesus Christ never maintained slaughterhouse. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Non, mais... He eated, he eated, he eated... Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances, when there is no other food, that a life must be saved. That is another thing. But why regularly slaughterhouse should be maintained for the satisfaction of the tongue? Yogeśvara: Is it clear? (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. But I think there is, at first, a great duty to help men and women and children to live and actually it is the first duty. It is more important to help men and women to life. The life of beast is of minor importance than the life of men. Prabhupāda: From that point of view, you can kill lower animals. Why should you kill mother? Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. Mother. Man, as human being is not the same that... Prabhupāda: And it is not moral. Even if you kill animals for maintaining your..., allowing that, there are many other, hundreds and thousands of animals. So if you at all require, people eat also hogs, sometimes, in wartime, they ate dogs also. And there are persons, they regularly eat dogs in Korea. They eat dogs regularly. So even animal killing is necessary for... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, it is... Prabhupāda: ...for eating, then at least the mother animal should not be killed. That is from moral point of view. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, from moral point of view... Prabhupāda: So our point of view is that we don't allow killing any animal. Our Kṛṣṇa says: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Kṛṣṇa says vegetable, fruits, milk, grains, all these things should be offered to Me with devotion. And you should take the remnants of the foodstuff. So we take prasādam. And Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me foodstuff prepared from this group." That we do. Accepting that the fruits, they have got life. But fruits are by nature... There are many fruits. It is offered by the tree for eating. The tree's not killed. So we accept this philosophy also that a, one animal, one living entity is meant for being food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. That we also accept, but that does not mean one living entity is the food for another living entity, that does not mean I can kill my mother, my child... That is not, sir. So at least this must be taken into consideration that cows, innocent, they give us milk, we take its milk, and we kill in regular slaughterhouse, this is not very good thing. It is sinful. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct) Yogeśvara: Does the fact that Christianity, does the fact that Christianity sanctions eating of meat mean that from the Christian viewpoint, lower species of life do not have a soul like human beings. Cardinal Danielou: Dites en francais. Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogeśvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Yogeśvara: He says: "No, that yes, this is the philosophy, that, that below the human level, the soul does not inhabit the body of other species." Cardinal Danielou: The soul, the soul, the soul is, is human soul. In the animal you have some psychologic existence, but not life of spirit with freedom, with mind and with the reality of spirit. But you have the same idea because you said that there is a difference of nature between spiritual creation and the material world. You know, the material world is not of the same essence than the spiritual world. And the man, the man is a part of spiritual world. *Prabhupāda: No. Our Bhagavad*-gītā says: sarva-yoniṣu. "In all species of life, as many forms are there, so the spirit soul is there." This outward body is just like a dress. You may have a very costly dress, and I may have a very shabby, poor dress, but both of us are human being, or living entities. Similarly these different forms of living entities, they are just like different types of dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like you are in black dress. I am in saffron dress... Cardinal Danielou: Yellow, yes. Prabhupāda: So this is external. But within the dress you are a human being, I am also human being. Similarly, there are eight million four hundred thousands of dresses. There are nine hundred thousand dresses within the water, aquatics. Yogeśvara: (translates) *Prabhupāda: Similarly, two million kinds of dresses of the trees, plants, like that. In this way the Vedic literatures have calculated, there are eight million, four hundred thousand forms of living entity. But they're all living entities, part and parcel of God. Just like one man has got ten sons. Not all of them equally meritorious. Not all. One may be high*-court judge. And one may be ordinary clerk in the office. But father, both the high-court judge and the clerk in the office, father claims both of them as son. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, I agree. *Prabhupāda: For father, there is no such distinction that: "This high*-court judge is very important and the clerk in the office, my son, he's not important." So if the enlightened son, high-court judge, says to the father: "My dear father, your, this son, is useless. Let me cut him and eat." Will the father allow? Yogeśvara: (asks in French if this is clear) Cardinal Danielou: Non. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: Apart from this consideration, at least this morality should be observed that cows, they're our mother. We should not kill at least mothers for eating the flesh. Cardinal Danielou: The difficulty for us is not the idea that it is good for us to respect the life of a cow. The difficulty is the metaphysic reason. You know. Prabhupāda: No, metaphysics, not... Cardinal Danielou: It is, it is, it is the idea that all life is parcel of the life of God. You know of this is to us, difficult to admit. We can, there is a very great difference between the life of man who is really called to partake the life of God, and the animal life, who is (French) Yogeśvara: Temporary. Cardinal Danielou: No. Without, without, impermanent. Life of man is permanent. Prabhupāda: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: And for the animals we can see, when one kills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound, horrible. So it is the question of development of consciousness. But the, a soul is there. Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation because... It is a fault in the creation? Prabhupāda: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just like tiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who are animal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the body of a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Why you maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws. Just eat." So they are waiting that life. Yogeśvara: Is it clear? Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogeśvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Well, (French). I am very joyful to, to speak, to speak with you. And I offer, if I can, tomorrow go to the, to visit the Temple. Yes, yes. I hope I can tomorrow. Yogeśvara: (French) (end) Room Conversation with German and Haàsadüta däsa -- August 9, 1973, Paris Haṁsadūta: *Īśopaniṣad*. Guest (German Man): (German) Haṁsadūta: (German) Beyond... Easy Journey to Other planets. Guest: (German) Haṁsadūta: Topmost Yoga. Guest: That is the... Yeah, the source of the Absolute. That is the best. But I read it twenty times, always with, in every day I find new things. Prabhupāda: That is... Guest: When I read other book, I read it one times, even not one time. But these books, I must read twenty times, and more even. It is, sometimes, it is, if I never read this book, it is so astonishing... Prabhupāda: Get new light. Guest: I would say another thing what I was. When I met the knowledge of Omkarananda, yes, I went back quite a long, five kilometers, a farm, I retired in a farm. And then I made this meditation. And then I read the book and I read fifty pages in five minutes without reading that. And then when that was finished, I was in other worlds. I could speak about high, other fields, which never I had seen, but when, when I came back I didn't know what it was what I saw. In other words, it was not dream. Absolutely awake. Other worlds, and then other sciences, higher, and higher and higher. I don't know what it was, but it is no of signification, I believe. Haṁsadūta: It was not significant he says. He doesn't think, even though he experienced it, he doesn't think it's significant. Guest: (German) I would ask if in the Christian conscience if it gives anything which resembles to this, which is of some worth. Because in your books sometimes you speak of Jesus Christ. He also said: "What have we to do? We have to love God with all our heart and to serve Him." If it gives any movement in your knowledge in Western Europe or in the world in the Christian side one can read what is what. Haṁsadūta: He wants to know if Christian, Christian teachings also bring the same consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to become... Guest: (German) Prabhupāda: ...purified. Guest: (German) Haṁsadūta: No, no, no. He says that in the Bible it says one should not make an image of God. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: In the Christian teachings... (German) Guest: Neither a picture of Him nor a likeness, likeness Prabhupāda: So why they have got image of Christ? Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) Prabhupāda: Why, why they keep Lord Jesus Christ's picture? Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) Prabhupāda: No, what is the philosophy. I am asking. What is the philosophy of keeping...? Guest: (German conversation) Haṁsadūta: He says he doesn't know. Guest: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then why do you object of Kṛṣṇa's form. Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) Haṁsadūta: Oh, the Deities. He cannot understand the Deities, that we are worshiping the Deity. Prabhupāda: Deity, that is image of Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: That is (German conversation) Prabhupāda: It is the same principle. Why they should object having Kṛṣṇa's form. Haṁsadūta: He says, it looks to him, it appears to him like a doll. Prabhupāda: Doll? Haṁsadūta: Doll, the Deities. Guest: (German) Haṁsadūta: He says the Deities always have such big eyes. The Deities, have, They are always looking with such big eyes. He cannot understand. Prabhupāda: Big eyes? Big eyes is very fearful to him? Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) Prabhupāda: These are different mentalities. It is not very scientific. Haṁsadūta: Shall I explain to him about Deity worship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: (German conversation for a some time) His question is: "Who has...?" Guest: (German) Haṁsadūta: Who has designated you as the spiritual master, because everyone is saying that: "I am the spiritual master," So how, how, how will one know who is the spiritual master? Guest: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Maharsi... Prabhupāda: (To Śrutakīrti) Don't make this coming and going always. There is no other way for going down? Śrutakīrti: No, we just had to find something. We... There was something in your bathroom we needed. This thing here... But we, we won't be using this at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: You want to know how can you tell... Guest: (German) Prabhupāda: The spiritual master is the representative of God. Haṁsadūta: (translates) Prabhupāda: So if he speaks what God speaks, then he's spiritual master, otherwise, he's a bogus. Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) What God has spoken in the scripture. Guest: (German) Prabhupāda: So Mahesh Yogi does not speak of God. Therefore he's bogus. Guest: I understand. *Haṁsadūta: He wants to know if you, if you think that you will be able to complete all the volumes of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam which you have projected. Prabhupāda: Why not? Guest: Yeḥ? Good. Thank you. (German) Haṁsadūta: He says, if you have anything, you can instruct him. Otherwise... Prabhupāda: I will instruct you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Haṁsadūta: (translates) Guest: (German) Haṁsadūta: How often? He wants...? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four hours. Haṁsadūta: (German conversation) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare... Then everything will be revealed to you. Haṁsadūta: (translates) Guest: Yaḥ. Good. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris Prabhupāda: ...there are many groups like that in America. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Like imitating Beatle groups. Devotee: Allen Ginsberg. Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg. Allen Ginsberg has no more popularity. Devotee: No, not much. Prabhupāda: He's roaming like vagabond. He came, London, to see me. That... He came, also. What is that? Bob...? Yogeśvara: Bob Dylan? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: You mean in London, in London. Prabhupāda: No. He came to Los Angeles. Śrutakīrti: He was at different temples in the United States, he was travelling by car. Devotee: And He came to see Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, he came to our temple in Los Angeles and paid three hundred dollars to the Deity. Devotee: Oh, that's nice. Prabhupāda: Some jewels. Yogeśvara: That's nice. He's the most popular young poet in the United States, Bob Dylan. All the young people have his records. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhagavān: Tonight there's a meeting scheduled at six*-thirty here. There's a big professor of philosophy, it's called the Sorbonne. Have you ever heard of this school? The Sorbonne? It's the big French University. So he called, he requested if you would see him tonight. So we set appointment for six-thirty. Prabhupāda: So Śivānanda Prabhu, you are doing well? Your wife came to see me. [break] Yogeśvara: He's named Maurice Rougemont. Śrīla Prabhupāda, notre maitre spirituel. Reporter: Enchantez. Yogeśvara: Mr. Rougemont is a journalist from Combat magazine, newspaper. Combat is the newspaper of the socialists of France. Political newspaper, and Mr. Rougemont had some questions about the political and government programs of the Society. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Reporter: You accept to answer my questions? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Thank you very much. Well, the first point is people are used to seeing that your Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is completely out of life and doesn't take any interest into the real life, materialistic, you know. So, but I think it's a mistake perhaps. It's a mistake. And that... Yogeśvara: (French) Reporter: (French) Yogeśvara: Ah, oui? Reporter: Oui. I've heard that... It's a mistake. And your movement, your consciousness of Kṛṣṇa, engloves, takes all the direction of economics and political possibility. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Reporter: Can you speak, explain me about that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our aim is realization of God. Reporter: Yes. Yogeśvara: (French: Would you like a translation?) Reporter: Oui. Yogeśvara: (from this point Yogeśvara translates some of the dialogue) Prabhupāda: And to get help for this realization we are concerned with everything. Naturally, politics, economics, science, art, philosophy, everything is included. And that is the perfection of all other subject matter. Everything has got an objective. So any of these departmental knowledge, namely politics, economics, art, science, philosophy, religion, art, science, philosophy, religion, everything should be aimed to achieve this end, God realization. Reporter: But, thank you. But, uh, so, in this way, you have to, in all of the science, you mean, economic, politic, etc., you have to take position, sometimes perhaps. For instance, for going to the knowing of Kṛṣṇa in politics perhaps you will choose one system or the other. And in science, in philosophy, etc. Do you... But this, those choose have never been explained to the people, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes, it should be. Reporter: It should be. Have you...? Prabhupāda: Yes, we, we, we have explained it in our book, *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam*, wherever possibility. Find out that verse: kāmam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. Find out this verse. Śrutakīrti: It's in First Canto? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. You can... Śrutakīrti: Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ? Prabhupāda: Oh. Yogeśvara: (in French:) He's looking for a specific reference in that book which explains the beginning of our political program. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: Now here is economics, politics and everything. So by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we want to see that everyone is getting nicely the necessities of life. That is economic. Is it not? Reporter: It is economic in a very, in a very... Prabhupāda: Brotherhood. Actually, we develop economics for getting the necessities of life. Is it not? That is economics. Reporter: Yeah. But the point is that these necessities of life is a frontier, you know, (indistinct) which is always farther, and farther and farther, always more pushed, pushed away, pushed away by new things. So... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is artificial. That is artificial. We are not concerned with artificial things. Just like you require to eat. Now artificially you can increase so many things for eating purposes. But you must eat. That is the economic question. It is not that you should starve. It is not our proposal that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious by starving. No. You must have sufficient necessities of life. Reporter: All right. So... The purpose for economic plan of all the planet, for the world would be everybody can eat, and I suppose just, just eating and some clothes and some roof to be, if you are in a cold country... Prabhupāda: Yes. Eating, sleeping... Sleeping requires roof, apartment. So it includes your housing, your eating, your sex urge, and your defence. Everything should be nicely... So arrangement should be made that people are not harassed for these necessities of life. Reporter: And all the rest is superfluous. Is too much. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: All the rest is superficial, is superficial. Prabhupāda: What is superficial? Devotee: Extra. Not needed. Yogeśvara: Anything beyond these four basics is... Prabhupāda: That is necessities of life. Because you have got this body, so you must supply the necessities of the body. That we supply. Not only that. We want to keep men in so peaceful condition that he's not disturbed by mental anxieties, bodily disease, natural disturbances and fighting or quarreling with other living entities. So when he's perfectly in peaceful condition of life, he can save time for advancement in spiritual consciousness. Reporter: Sure, so... Prabhupāda: But aim is that his life, everyone's life is meant for spiritual realization. So to, in order to achieve this end of life he must be kept in peaceful condition of life. Yogeśvara: He asks: "In order to achieve these goals is it our intention to do like the Christians and make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: In order to achieve our goals, do we intend doing like the Christians tried to do, making everyone convert to their side. Is that what we want to do, make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? If Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good, why everyone should not take to it? Yogeśvara: Ah. This is an important question. He says seeing the world as it is today, what is the most preferable social organization from the Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals? *Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first*-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class. Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life. Bhagavān: Another question? Reporter: No, I think it's all right. You have a speech tomorrow? You will have a speech tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: Yes, here, yes. Devotee: Here, it'll be. Bhagavān: Here. In the afternoon you are scheduled to... Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the subject matter? Any (indistinct). Bhagavān: As you like. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Our socialism means centering around Kṛṣṇa. Just like Russian socialism is around the ideas of Marx or Lenin. So we have got also similar leader. As the communist has got the leader, Marx or Lenin, similarly we have also got the leader, Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: There is, there is kind of socialist or communist philosophy that says that everyone must be able to do the same work in order to be equal. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position. Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions? Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division. Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we? *Prabhupāda: First*-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. [break] Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss. Bhagavān: It can be tested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is the most important movement. For giving direction, we don't charge, and by following our direction, they don't lose anything. So why not make an experiment and see the result? The result is already there. Any intelligent man can see. It is not bluff. Bhagavān: We are living, sixty, seventy people in this house, cooperatively, like this. That is a very great thing. *Prabhupāda: And they are living very happily. You can see from their face. Yes. They are known as bright*-faced. Yes. Many, I mean, Christian priests, they came to congratulate me: "Swamiji, how you have made your disciples so jolly and bright-faced?" The government in America, they are surprised, that even after spending millions of dollars, they could not drive away LSD intoxication. And as soon as a intoxicated person comes to our camp, he not only gives up LSD and liquor, he gives up even smoking, drinking tea and coffee. So why not experiment this movement. The greatest socialist movement. If you want to get the socialistic idea, we can give you. Would you like to take? Reporter: Oh, I don't trust. I could trust. Yeah. But... Prabhupāda: Our socialistic idea, you can note down... Reporter: I have nothing to lose but do you think you could manage all society very complex, as our... Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: It's more than... Prabhupāda: We can, we can make the society perfect if they take our advice. Because we are working as the brain. Bhagavān: He can see Prabhupāda's books. Our philosophy is not small philosophy. Reporter: Just a last question. Just... You were saying, minute before that the socialism, your socialism is that Kṛṣṇa is your Marx, sort of. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. But... It will be my last question. What about you in that? Would you be, you are a spiritual chief. Would you be...? Prabhupāda: I am not spiritual chief. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual chief. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement. Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force... Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society. Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success. Reporter: I think, I think... Prabhupāda: And if you want to know our socialistic idea, I can give you. Reporter: Yeah. Because I thought you know, it was just an idea of your... But I shall never think it was so, so much clear. Yogeśvara: He never thought that our program was quite so detailed. Prabhupāda: It is most scientific program. Bhagavān: We have also economic position. Prabhupāda: Everything, I have explained. Now our socialist idea is: God is the father of all living beings. And whatever there is on the surface of the globe, on the sea, on the sky, everything belongs to God. And all the sons of God has equal right to enjoy it. But nobody... (aside:) He is finished? But nobody is allowed to take more than he requires. If one takes more than he requires, he's to be punished. This is our socialist idea. As we think all living entities sons of God, therefore even a lizard in my room should not starve. Bhagavān: He should not starve is the point. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: He should not be allowed to go hungry. Prabhupāda: Even a snake is there, he should not also starve. He must have food. We do not support such rascal philosophy that you give food to the man, and send the animals to the slaughterhouse. We do not support this rascaldom, our philosophy is: as human being has got the right to take share of God's property and live, similarly all other living entities, they have got right. Reporter: Have you a point of view about the demographic problem and the problem of (French)? Yogeśvara: Do we have a viewpoint on contraception? Prabhupāda: That is most sinful activity. Because a child is coming to live at the expense of God's property, and the rascal father is thinking of overpopulation. Yogeśvara: Or, as Prabhupāda was saying, he's thinking there's overpopulation. Reporter: (French) Yogeśvara: But he says but this is a fact, this overpopulation. *Prabhupāda: That is another wrong impression. Foolish impression. The whole world has got sufficient place to produce food for ten times the population as it is now. The Americans, they throw grains in the water. So if they send the excess grain to the place where grain is not sufficient, then it is God conscious*-ness. If the so-called overpopulation is spread all over the world, there is sufficient place in Africa, Australia, America. The overpopulation can grow their food in these vast uncultivated land. Yogeśvara: He says that only resolves the problem for a few years. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We don't believe it. That is not... Yogeśvara: Why. Why is it that this program...? Prabhupāda: Why do they think that it is for few years? Yogeśvara: He's thinking that the Earth is not capable of providing enough... Prabhupāda: What does he know about Earth? His knowledge is not sufficient. He, he's speaking like a woman who saw in the marketplace in the morning thousands of people have gathered, and she began to cry: "Where I shall give place to these men?" So her son came: "My dear mother, don't cry. You come in the evening. We shall find some solution." So when she came in the evening, there was nobody. Yogeśvara: You can translate that story? (French) (to Prabhupāda:) She went there to buy her foodstuffs? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yogeśvara: (French) *Prabhupāda: So you are thinking in that way. "How I shall provide this population?" That is the old woman's crying. Without sufficient knowledge. We do not believe in this, all rascaldom. We believe in God. If God can create... just like animals. They do not cry. They're increasing. The hogs and dogs, even lower animals... This is demonic economy. A man is holding thousands of acres of land and he's thinking of overpopulation. Why not he distributes the thousands of acres of land to the people? They would produce their own food. That is the, that is the defect of so*-called socialism. But here we give a right type of socialism. Yogeśvara: He thinks he has a fairly clear idea of what our program is now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Thank you very much for this (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Thank you. Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Dr. Inger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Come. Come on. Yogeśvara: Give him some prasādam before he leaves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam. Reporter: Thank you very much. Dr. Inger: I was hoping, many years since I went to London to the Hare Krishna center there..., Prabhupāda: Oh, you have been in our temple? Dr. Inger: Many times, yes. And I had followed the booklets that came, Back to Godhead, also read. I didn't get, I didn't have a copy of the *Bhāgavatam*, but I read your translations... Prabhupāda: You are Indian? Dr. Inger: Yes, I'm an Indian. I have been working a long time in Paris. I am a resident more or less in Paris. I work for UNESCO, and I'm a writer. I go backwards and forwards a lot to India. But my headquarters have been here for a long time. So I'm associated... Prabhupāda: How long you are here? *Dr. Inger: In France, I've been twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. And wherefrom you came? Dr. Inger: Punjab. Prabhupāda: Punjab. Dr. Inger: Before it was divided into two. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Dr. Inger: Before the... Prabhupāda: Which district. Dr. Inger: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which district? Dr. Inger: Lahore. Prabhupāda: Lahore. Dr. Inger: Lahore. Prabhupāda: Lahore City proper. Dr. Inger: Yes. I taught there. And then, of course, it was divided, and, before that, I came here and joined. Prabhupāda: I went to Lahore sometimes. Dr. Inger: I see. Prabhupāda: In 1925. There, in Lahore, there is, there were many Bengalis. Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: So one Bengali gentleman, he was Mr. Mitha, they were physician. So I became his guest. They were very well*-to-do men. They were living therefore two, three generations. Mithi family. Dr. Inger: I see. There was also some man called Birmitha. Was he the same? Bir... Prabhupāda: I, I... Dr. Inger: Perhaps... Prabhupāda: I forget the name. Dr. Inger: Yes, there were quite a number of Bengalis there. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Dr. Inger: Long time ago. Prabhupāda: Long time ago. I went there in 1925. I was going to Kashmir. On my way I stopped in Lahore, Amritsar, and some other places. Dr. Inger: Yes, and yes, and then, you came first to Europe about six years ago? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Inger: Yes, that's right. That's when... It was about a year after that I, or two years, that I went to London. And then saw the, saw there several times. And then, of course, been reading books. Here, too, I came across some people. When it first started, it was in Boulevard Raspail. Then it went to Fontenay Aux Rose. Yogeśvara: He's been following our movement here in Paris as well. Dr. Inger: Yes, yes. I met a few. In fact the, this young Spaniard who showed us up, I saw him when he was selling a few things in the Drug Store. Yes. You know. Malas and other stuff. Bhagavān: So now we are much bigger. Dr. Inger: Yes, yes. Of course. And... Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Dr. Inger: No, no. I have only seen a few in London. Prabhupāda: Why don't you show our books. Show him? Dr. Inger: I haven't seen the new ones. I have seen the... Prabhupāda: Bring all the books. Devotee: *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam*? [break] Prabhupāda: These books have been produced within six years. Dr. Inger: Really! Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Inger: Fantastic. I do not know how. So much work, incredible! Prabhupāda: I work at night, writing books. My work is going on. At night, I write. [break] In the UNESCO, to understand God or spiritual life, they do not think it a necessary? Dr. Inger: Well, that's a very, very important question. I think that the real trouble is that all of them are bureaucrats, sitting in offices, creating more jobs for other officers. I was one of the earliest members. I came when Dr. Radhakrishnan was the, was our president. And... At the very early stage. In those days, there was that feeling, that some importance should be given, but because it became a governmental organization, because every religion thinks that they should have a part to play in it, what they did was, they brought out, in ten volumes, a scientific and cultural history of mankind. But it has, it's only incidentally philosophy, only incidentally religion. The only religious books that have come out are those that have been translated. Old books like the second book to the East, for instance. Max Muller's books. And they have been reprinted. And occasionally a few translations have been done from Tulasidāsa or some other philosophers, rewritten, like Śaṅkara later on. But, but all of those have been done because somebody else has commissioned them. But otherwise, there isn't... Except they have had some meetings in various placed. But at none of these meetings do they really discuss the problem that of the, well occasional people, occasional philosophers, they never really discuss that. I think because the word, religion, I think probably is the stumbling block... Prabhupāda: No, apart from religion. Religion may be sentiment or some emotion. That is another thing. Dr. Inger: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we can ask what is this cosmic manifestation, what is the purpose of this, who created, how it is created. Are they not scientific? Dr. Inger: Yes. Now this is another problem. Everything of a philosophical kind, they call it science, human sciences, natural sciences, moral sciences. They think that is a fault(?) to satisfy scientific spirit. I think from that point of view, they allow big conferences to be held where a particular theme is taken, different people come. So the organization encourages, stimulates activities proposed, submitted and finally passed in resolutions by different commissions and different countries. And then it's held. And at that particular time, some people come and speak. So they have had... But they haven't... Mostly these meetings have been held and... Very few have been held here, except when they celebrated the tintinary(?) of Aurobindo, last year. Or when they celebrated the centenary of, another centenary of Ramakrishna. Like that. But not always. Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Inger: They haven't. Not so far. Because from their point of view they have to prove the dates, historical dates, how many centuries, and so forth. Prabhupāda: It is there in the śāstras. Dr. Inger: I know. But so... If one can put it that way, then somebody has to submit that we are going to celebrate the three thousand anniversary, or four thousand anniversary, and... But no such step has been taken. But such an idea can be proposed. Prabhupāda: No, suppose the United Nations is the organization of the whole human society, so if I ask the United Nations, as an organization that: "What is the purpose of this cosmic manifestation?" That is a fact. There is a cosmic manifestation. The scientists, they are also trying to understand. So there are so many scientists, philosophers, what is their answer? Suppose I am inquisitive to know something. So where shall I inquire? Prabhupāda: A sectarian question. Dr. Inger: No, no, no. It won't be. *Prabhupāda: It is... Why it should be presented to Pārtha*-sārathi. Even American representative or English representative or French representative, any representative can do... Dr. Inger: Because being a governmental organization, the only kind of reply one would get from such a question would be a very polite and courteous one, but it wouldn't have... No action would be taken. Action can only be taken, if it is governmentally presented. That is the only problem. There are many ideas which come forward, boundless ones, but the people need to present them officially. And... [break] Prabhupāda: ...your position there? Dr. Inger: Well, now I am a consultant. I used to be a regular member of the staff for a long time. Now I do certain projects for them, and I'm a visiting professor, and I'm a writer, visiting professor at different universities. So I'm connected with, with UNESCO in a way that I can not be now a permanent member of the staff which I was... [break] Prabhupāda: ...purpose is not to propose only. Because I wish that there are so many scient..., scientific men, philosophers and thoughtful men... Suppose even if I ask you, what is your answer, that what is the purpose...? The cosmic manifestation is there, the universe is there, and there are innumerable planets within this universe, and they are very organizely kept. Everything is nicely going on. The sun is rising in due time. The moon is rising in due time. The seasons, seasons are changing. There is nice organization. So is it not a bona fide inquiry to, "What is the purpose of this organization?" Dr. Inger: Well, the purpose is to understand oneself in relation to the cosmos. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Inger: And therefore everything else is valueless if it has no relation to the total. Prabhupāda: No, relation is already there because, as the sun is part of this cosmos, I'm also one of the parts. So why the sun is made and why I am also made? What is this purpose? That is my question. Dr. Inger: There's a discovery of... Prabhupāda: Yes. The relation is already there. Dr. Inger: The discoveries... Prabhupāda: Because I am part of this creation. Now why I am created a man, another is created an elephant, another is created Brahmā, another is created ant, another is created...? So many. Why this is? Dr. Inger: The purpose of life? Prabhupāda: Yes. I, I, I, I don't think anyone has thought over this matter. Dr. Inger: It certainly needs to be... Prabhupāda: But there is. There are so many philosophers, scientists... Why do they not try to think of it? What is this purpose? Dr. Inger: Well, some have tried to talk about the purpose of existence that we are little entities of no significance. Some... Because... Prabhupāda: No. My question is why you have become a little entity, another has become big entity? Dr. Inger: Some people would say that it is due to our past. Past connections or reincarnations. Devotee: Karma. Dr. Inger: karma. Prabhupāda: So. Yes, karma... Dr. Inger: Exactly. What we have gone through. We are the, we are the result of our past actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. That is a fact. Because we get all this information from Vedic literature. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. You understand Sanskrit? Dr. Inger: Little bit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantor deha upapattaye. A living entity is getting body by, as a result of his karma. And supervised by higher authority. Now when we speak of karma, or result of karma, there must be somebody who will judge. Just like one has stolen something, and the magistrate is judging the karma, the criminal activity, and he's putting him either in the prison house or getting him released. "No, he's not culprit." So as soon as we speak of karma, there must be somebody else to judge. And that judgement is said: daiva netreṇa. Daiva means divine supervision. So what is that divine supervision? Next question immediately comes. As soon as you accept karma, and the resultant action, and it is supervised by the divine authority, then next question will be: what is that divine authority? In this way, we have to go forward. So that sort of education is nowhere in the world. Dr. Inger: No. Not here, in any case. Prabhupāda: No, here, or India, or everywhere. Dr. Inger: Yes. Nobody is... *Prabhupāda: So that means people have become so dull in spite of so*-called education. Dr. Inger: That is true. Prabhupāda: That's, that's my point. Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Education is merely book knowledge. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā. Dr. Inger: ...of substance given, read, prepared. Prabhupāda: That's all. Dr. Inger: They don't go to the basic. *Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all. Dr. Inger: Quite. And this basis, which is the essence of everything. Prabhupāda: Three things only. Dr. Inger: Yes. That is one thing they want to avoid. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their nonsense. Dr. Inger: In other words, everything else is a plan or an excuse to escape from yourself. Prabhupāda: That means it is a association of cheaters and cheated. Somebody wants to cheat and somebody's being cheated. That's all. That is our opinion. So how the association of cheaters and cheated can do anything good to the human society? They're cheaters. They do not know how this peace has to be attained, and they're trying to attain peace in their own way. Therefore they're cheaters. You do not a subject matter, how to do it, and you're trying to do it, that means you are cheater. It may be very strong words, but the fact is there. Why should you try something which you do not know adequately? That is our protest. Dr. Inger: Well, many people would say that the use of the intellect alone, which is an excuse for not going deep into oneself, is the technique that is used. What can be rationally explained, only rationally explained, is what matters. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Inger: Anything where, something beyond reason, call it intuition... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is quite reasonable. When... [break] Prabhupāda: Everything... In this table, whatever is there, it is created. The table is created. The light is created. Everything is created by somebody. So how I can deny this fact, that somebody has created the whole universe? If you say, "It has comes automatically, dropped," that is rascaldom. It must be accepted somebody has created. So who is that somebody? You have not created. The Americans have not created, the Englishmen have not created, or I have created, you have created, but we can understand that somebody has created. So who will be the proprietor? I shall be proprietor or the creator shall be proprietor? Who shall be the proprietor? Dr. Inger: Creator. Of course. Prabhupāda: Creator. So why you are claiming other's property as "my own"? "This is my country. This is my country." And we are so rascal and we are making United Nation. Dr. Inger: It doesn't belong to anyone. *Prabhupāda: It doesn't belong to anyone. And these rascals are claiming, "This is my. This is my, this is my flag. This is..." Therefore they are all cheaters. And they are combining and trying to cheat other that "How much I can cheat you." "I am American. How much I can cheat you, Russian." Russian thinking, "Yes, I am also cheater. How much I can cheat you." This is going on, cheaters and cheated. And they are wasting their time. Is that civilization, to become cheater and cheated and waste our time in some so*-called conferences? Is that civilization, do you think? Dr. Inger: No. Not at all, but that's exactly as you say. *Prabhupāda: American, they cheated the Red Indians. They got the land. Now they are claiming, "It is my land." But where you got this land? You have cheated the Red Indians, and you claim now it is your land. "Nobody should come here." Everywhere that is there it belongs to... Napoleon, he thought, "France is mine." France is there. Where he has gone, the proprietor? Yes. And with this idea he fought so much. Now nobody knows what he has become, where he is living, either in France or in hell, maybe in heaven. But there are so many places and so many forms of life. And our Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. Just like I am now in this body. Child is in this body. So all of us sometimes were in this body, childish. So where is that body? That body is not existing. But I am existing; *you are existing. You know that you had such a body. You were also playing like this child. I also remember. So the body is not existing. I am existing. So I have got a different body now. So where is the difficulty to under*-stand that when this body is also finished I get another body? Where is the difficulty? And Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. As we are changing from one body to another, another, another, even within our experience, similarly, as soon as this body is finished, I get another body. Now I am working in this body as national, as Napoleon, as Gandhi, as you according to our own whims and ideas, and fighting in the UNESCO, everything, just like recently Pakistan representative, India... But as soon as the body is finished, just like Gandhi finished, Jinnah finished, now what kind of body he has got now? May not be Indian or Pakistani. Now in that body he is thinking according to his body, a dog is thinking according to the doggish body. A man is thinking according to the man's body. So thinking and everything is changed with the change of the body. Just like this child is. This child, she cannot concentrate because due to the body. Other gentlemen, ladies, they can concentrate. So she has to get a different body to have a different mentality. So in other words, with the change of the body the mentality changes. So in this body I am thinking of France, and if my next body, it is not in France or is not human, I will think otherwise. So the whole duration of my life which I thought in one way, that is simply wasted. Simply wasted. They do not know. This knowledge is lacking. There is no such knowledge in the university, any education, nothing. Simply they are wasting time. Simply. They have no perfect knowledge. They are wasting their time, and doing something just like childish, and going on as advanced in civilization, and so on, so on, so on. Now they should think. Simply on some utopian ideas they should not go. They should know, "What is the purpose of life, what is our connection with this cosmic manifestation, if... There must be some creator. Who is that creator? What is my relation with Him?" These... There are so many things. But they are neglecting. And still, they are passing on as scientist, as philosopher, as politicians and leaders. Dr. Inger: That's the worst of governments you see, because they stand, as You said rightly each for himself. Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, we are discussing this point, that this illusion is going on. But human form of life, a human being can get out of this illusion. We have got sufficient sources of knowledge, especially in the Vedic knowledge. So why do we not take advantage of this knowledge and make our life successful? Yes. That is my proposal. And we are struggling with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement with this purpose only, that these people are missing the point and wasting their time and life unnecessarily under some illusion. To try to save them, that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. [break] ...talked with so many Christian priests. Naturally while discussing I asked them that "In your Bible it is said, 'Thou shall not kill.' Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse?" They cannot answer properly. In this way and this way they try to avoid and support this slaughterhouse. Dr. Inger: It's difficult to answer it. Prabhupāda: This is going on. Dr. Inger: When I asked a group of priests at a meeting which was to celebrate the anniversary of a leading Catholic thinker, I.R. Shadder(?), I just asked him about the Sermon on the Mount, referring to similarities between the teachings of Sermon on the Mount and Hindu thought. He says, "You see, but the point is this, that the Sermon on the Mount is not meant for everybody. It is only meant for a very few. And therefore most of us, including the present company," he said, "cannot use it in everyday life." I said, "Do you mean it is only meant for monks?" He hesitated but said, "If you like, yes." But I said, "I imagined that this was meant for everyone and that anyone could follow it." And he said, "Well, it is too dangerous a teaching to give to everyone." Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that? Haṁsadūta: This is your visa. It's been extend... *Guru*-g: aurāṅga : I just came back from the airport, and they made it good. Haṁsadūta: It's been extended up until the 16th. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda will be here till the 16th, so if you would like to come back, if you would like to bring some friends... Dr. Inger: Yes, I would most certainly like to come back if I may. What is the best time? Bhagavān: About three to four in the evening. Prabhupāda: In the evening at four. Dr. Inger: All right. I would like to bring Chauhan(?) and two other men. Bhagavān: You can bring as many as you like. Yogeśvara: We have a very great interest in having people with something to say, some ability to respond to the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come and confront our movement. Dr. Inger: Yes, I gathered from the papers that you had had Jean Danielou. Yogeśvara: Cardinal Danielou. Yes, that meeting has already taken place. That was yesterday with the cardinal. He read in the newspaper that it was going to take place. Where did you read that? Dr. Inger: Yes. In Le Monde, yesterday. Because Cardinal Danielou has brother called Alec. Yogeśvara: This is the Vedic writer, the cardinal's brother. Dr. Inger: Yes, he was never (indistinct) he did a lot of translation work, studies in Madras. So then... Yogeśvara: Is this the article? Dr. Inger: Yes, this is the article. It says right here. (end) *Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter*-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- August 10, 1973, Paris Prabhupāda: ...desert in India, is expanding. It is coming near to Mathurā and Vṛndāvana. So everyone is concerned. Bhagavān: The desert is expanding because it's... Prabhupāda: Desert expands. As everything expands and diminishes, desert also... That is nature's course. Desert means less production. So na..., if nature wants, she can make the whole world desert. What your tractors and so many agricultural machines will help? It will turn into desert. There will be no rain. What you can do? And still you are very proud of your scientific advancement. You cannot struggle with nature. Bhagavān: They have one city in Italy. It's called Venice. And it's built... They say they have conquered the ocean. So they've gone out into the ocean and built it up, and there are so many houses. And you travel through the city on boat. That's the only way you can get... And now the city's sinking. Prabhupāda: Sinking? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see. Then what they are doing? Bhagavān: They are concerned. Prabhupāda: The indication is already there. Still, they are not alarmed. They have to leave that place. Sinking also Mexico. Haṁsadūta: Mexico, yes. Mexico City is built on..., also (indistinct). But that's not very... In New York, in New York, you know, they have so many tunnels under the ground that every now and then there's some place, some place just caves in, the street will suddenly just cave in. Because there's so many tunnels for electric wires and plumbing, for the subways, everything. And the whole thing is... Prabhupāda: I have seen in New York, Park Street... Devotees: Park Avenue. Prabhupāda: Park Avenue, that one skyscraper foundation was... And I see within the foundation, the subway train is running. Haṁsadūta: Within the foundation. Prabhupāda: Yes. And I was looking at least five, ten stories from the subway. Haṁsadūta: They're working so much just for this... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They have people here in Paris that work in the subway, in the Metro. And when they have to make repairs, they close the Metro down, twelve o'clock at night, and they come and work from twelve o'clock at night all through the brāhma-muhūrta and work in the Metro, on the tracks, and they leave at four in the morning, and the Metro starts again. And there are so many people working in holes in the ground all night like that. Haṁsadūta: Working just at night. Underground. Prabhupāda: Repairing? Haṁsadūta: Repairing. Prabhupāda: Mouse business. This repairing and working is done by the mouse also. Bhagavān: At night, they also work at night. *Prabhupāda: Ugra*-karma. They have invented working method, very, very hard, very, very... At night, in darkness, go down, ten stories down and work for a livelihood. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Pungent activities. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Pungent activities. Prabhupāda: And lots of land is lying in our Letchmore Heath. They won't work for producing food. That land is kept for keeping cows for killing them. And for their food, they are working underneath the ground, and whatever money they get, they import grains. Just see the māyā's influence, that: "We are working, getting money, and importing grains." Why not work and grow grains? Now he's thinking that: "I'll get more money underground, than by cultivating on the surface." This is māyā. He's working very hard. Still, he's thinking it is better happiness. "I haven't to work on the surface. I am working underground. Therefore I am happy." This is māyā. He'll prefer that kind of work. But he won't agree to grow food on the surface of the country. Bhagavān: That's because in America, for example, the government will pay so much money. They will pay you more than if you grow so many fields of... Prabhupāda: No, it is my experience. I have seen practically all parts of the world. If we grow food, all countries, especially America, both North and South, whole America, whole Canada, whole Africa, whole Australia... They are not producing food. There is so much land. So if you combine together on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no scarcity of food anywhere, in any part of the world. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, when we talk like this, is this to perhaps mean sometime in the future the movement will become so big that...? Prabhupāda: Yes, if we accept that Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of everything, then it becomes one state, as it was formerly, five thousand years ago. Bhagavān: But to do that from the position the world is in today, it seems like it's so, it'd be almost, very difficult to come to that platform again, unless we... Prabhupāda: It may be difficult, but the philosophy is there. Solution is there. Bhagavān: That requires getting some kind of political position perhaps? At least, if not us, someone else adopting the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, appreciating them, or... Prabhupāda: Now thing is that political consciousness... Just like Hitler planned, Napoleon planned. They also thought that: "If I can unite all these European states under my plan, under my 'ism,' they will be happy." That is the plan. He also thinks like that. But whether he is perfect? This Lenin, this Hitler, this Napoleon, whether they are perfect? So unless they are perfect, any such utopian planning will not help. Bhagavān: But for our plan to be put into action on big scale, big people must accept, who, who are presently, who presently have power to control the state. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: So is this to say that we must...? *Prabhupāda: The big people are rogues. Just like yesterday we talked with the Cardinal. He is defending animal*-killing. He's a rogue. Anyone who is killing animal, he's a rogue. But he is representing as big man, important man. Bhagavān: So either they must accept our philosophy, or we must replace them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: That is... Prabhupāda: First, first of all, you take care of yourself. Then you think of others. [break] *Devotee: ...hear from Bhagavad*-gītā (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How he claims to be the body? Bhagavān: He says people say that there is consciousness in this body because there is the soul. Then at the end of the body, soul is finished, the body is finished. Everything finished. Prabhupāda: Why soul is finished? Bhagavān: Because they say the body is finished. Prabhupāda: No body is finished. My childhood body is finished, but the soul is not finished. Bhagavān: They will not listen logically. What can you do? Prabhupāda: How it is? My childhood body, my babyhood body is finished. It is no longer existing. So how I am existing? Therefore his statement that body is finished and the soul is finished is wrong. We see practically. The body is finished, the soul is existing. This is practical. Why he's talking nonsense-"The body is finished, and the soul is finished." Where the soul is finished? I remember my childhood body. So I, I am existing, but my childhood body's finished. That is the fact. Therefore with the annihilation of the body, the soul does not annihilate. This is the conclusion. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The baby body is finished. But soul is still there. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: So when this body is finished, why shall the soul be gone? Prabhupāda: Even the father, mother is not crying. The mother's baby dies. She cries, she becomes mad. But when the child gives up that childhood body, accept another body, she's happy because she knows: "My son is there. He has only changed the body." The mother knows. Mother is not crying: "Oh, where is my child gone, sir?" He knows that "My child is here. He has changed his body." These are the arguments. If the foolish rascal will not accept genuine arguments, logic, then how he can be convinced? He's a animal. The animals cannot be convinced. Any man with little brain substance, he'll understand this. Where is the difficulty? But it is useless to talk with animals. You cannot argue with dogs and hogs. That is not possible. So if their brain is doggish and hoggish, how you can convince them? But the logic is there, the argument is there. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: How is it they can see continuity between baby's body and young boy's body and young man's body, they say, "Oh, he's still here," but they can see no continuity between this body and... Prabhupāda: That, that, he has no eyes. How I have got my continuity of my childhood thoughts and now also? Just like for a old man. He hasn't got so much sexual power, but the sex continuity is there. He wants to enjoy. Therefore he takes some medicine. He takes some injection. Why? The continuity. That means the continuity is mind. The gross body has changed. The mind is there, subtle. Intelligence is there. That is continuity. And that continuity, that subtle body, mind and intelligence, carry me to another body, as it is doing now. My gross body has changed, but mind and intelligence continuing. Similarly when this body will be completely finished, my mind and intelligence will carry me to another gross body. Then in the womb of my mother I shall grow another gross body. The mind and intelligence being continued. And I get a particular type of body on the condition of mind and intelligence at the time of death. Death means finishing this body. But the mind and intelligence is the same. As the air carries the flavor. This is the logic. Everything is... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: So is subtle body ever finished? Prabhupāda: Subtle body can be finished when you are liberated from material bondage. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Otherwise, it's the same subtle body...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Carry, carrying you, carrying you in different types of bodies, gross bodies. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: It's the same mind, but it's covered. Prabhupāda: Subtle body will be finished when you regain your Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Then the subtle, this material mind, intelligence will not work. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: But it's one mind. The soul also has a mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. One mind. There... Just like I am one, but I am speaking just like madman. The man is one, but under some condition he's talking nonsense. So any materialistic man is a madman, under the influence of this energy, external energy. Therefore he's talking all nonsense. Come on. Come on. Namaskāra. Bhagavān: Sit here. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: This is, this is Anna Conan Doyle(?). And her father-in-law is a very famous author. She's very, very interested. She wanted to put a festival on for you in the Riviera, but didn't have enough money to do it. So she said next year she will do this for you. And she has all your books and reads them every morning. She rises very early and studies Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: She looks very intelligent face. Yes. Yes. Oh, that's nice. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: She speaks English. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anna Conan Doyle: I speak English. I'm Danish but I speak English. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. It is very nice. So intelligent men and women should take interest in this great movement. It is a very scientific spiritual movement. People are suffering for lack of spiritual knowledge. They have become materially like animals. Materialism means animalism. Yes. Materialism means animalism. Animalism means in the lower grade of existence. What is the difference between dog and a human being. He has got a lower grade body, and the human being has got a higher grade body. So the more we become materialistic, we get lower grade body. In the lower grade body, the consciousness works only on four activities, eating sleeping, sex life and defence. This is lower grade activities. And higher grade activities: working for understanding God. That is higher grade life. In the lower grade life, nobody can understand God. In the higher grade life, one can understand God, yes. One can feel with intelligence. Just like dog may understand this is day, this is night. But he does not understand why it is day, why it is night. But a man can understand that it is day because the sun is there. And it is night because sun is now set. That is the difference dog and man. Better knowledge. So as we advance in better knowledge, that is perfection of life. And the topmost knowledge is to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then he's most perfect being. That is perfection. Knowledge other than Kṛṣṇa consciousness*-degraded knowledge, or lower grade knowledge. So at the present moment, although superficially, we have got very nice building, nice apartment, but the knowledge is doggish. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. That's all. No more. The same degraded life as the dog. Dog is also trying how to live, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. He's making: "bak bok bok bok." (barking sound) That is defence. His way of defence. That is defence. He's defending for the master. Similarly dog has also sex life, dog has also sleeps, dog also eats. So if a human being is also engaged in these four principles of business, then where is the difference between him and the dog? He must be interested in the business of understanding God. Then he's human being. Otherwise, he's a dog. Do you agree? Eh? Anna Conan Doyle: Yes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Anna Conan Doyle: Actually, we are, in a sense, the God to the dog. Aren't we? Prabhupāda: Eh? Anna Conan Doyle: We are, in a sense, to a dog, we are God to him. As man is a dog, we are God to him, to the dog. Because the way he loves us, his fidelity to us, he doesn't understand God, and we understand God. Prabhupāda: No, he's not in position to understand God. Anna Conan Doyle: He doesn't understand. He understands only us. Prabhupāda: He understands that he has got a superior, but he does not understand who is the most superior. A human being can understand who is the most superior, topmost superior. Anna Conan Doyle: Well, we have also superior, but we have forgotten to understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes, we have forgotten. Everyone is... Dog is also forgotten. But his forgotten stage is more acute. More acute. And human being is advanced. Bhagavān: Should we distribute this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Would you like some, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: In the human form of life, if we do not try to understand God, then we are committing suicide. Yes. Because we got the chance. Nature gave us the chance to understand God. But if we do not divert our attention in understanding God, then we are making suicide. Misuse of human life. For a human being, the only business is how to understand God. Not for economic development. What economic development? This Napoleon planned so many things. But where he is now? Can anyone say where is Napoleon? One astrologer in India has said that Jawaharlal Nehru is now a dog in the house of a gentleman in Sweden. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Could you understand that? Anna Conan Doyle: Not exactly. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Prabhupāda said that Jawaharlal Nehru, the former prime minister of India, someone has said now he is a house dog in a home in Sweden. Anna Conan Doyle: I hope not for him. *Prabhupāda: You may not, but nature is different. Just like a child does not hope that if he puts his finger in a fire, it will not burn. But nature is so strict, it doesn't care for the child or the old man. It will burn. I may prove very innocent, but nature doesn't care for that. Nature doesn't care for that. Nature will not show any mercy for the innocent child. No. That is nature. Is it not fact? If a child puts his finger on the fire, nature will not consider that: "Here is a innocent child. He may not be burned." No. Equally. Therefore nature is very strong. We cannot avoid the control of the nature. If you do something, it must acting, react in the same way. The same... If you put your finger in the fire, it must react, burn it. Nature is so strong. So as soon as you violate any law of nature, you'll be punished. That is... Just like God... State police is there, engaged by the government. As soon as you violate law, the police will arrest you and give you punishment. Similarly material nature means the police of God. As soon as you violate God laws, it will give immediately punishment. That is material nature. It is always punishing us. Because we are, one after another, we are violating the laws of God. Therefore she's always punishing. That is her business. Mother nature is described as Goddess Durgā, and she has got a trident in her hand. That is punishment. Three kinds of miserable condition. Adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. Adhyātmika, pertaining to the body and mind, adhibhautika, miserable condition offered by others, and adhidaivika, miserable condition offered by higher authorities. Just like if there is no rain, you cannot do anything. Your so*-called science and advancement of knowledge will not be able to help. Or if there is over flood. That also you cannot do anything. Therefore you have to accept there is a controller of this raining. It is not under my control. That is nature. But nature is working under the direction of God. Behind the background of nature is God. Just like background of police force is the government. Similarly, background of the stringent laws of nature is God. That they do not understand. They're struggling with the natural laws. And that struggle they are taking as advancement. That's all. It is a struggle. But they're taking it as advancement. This is called illusion. It is not advancement. It is simply struggle. But they're taking it as advancement. Such a great, powerful man like Napoleon, Hitler, they struggled only. Later on, they vanquished. So what to speak of others? Such big, big men, they struggled against the nature, but they vanquished. Nature is there. Nature is always victorious. So we have to own over victory over the nature. That is only possible if you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, not. Do you think we are right in our statement. Anna Conan Doyle: Yes. Prabhupāda: If not you can ask that: "Why I am talking nonsense?" (laughter) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Mrs. Conan Doyle is interested also in speaking in St. Paul in her home about travelling to visit other planets,... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Travelling to visit higher planets, still in the material world, to accumulate experiences before going back home, back to Godhead. I was trying to explain the more important aspect... Prabhupāda: You can, you can experience. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: She wants to go to other planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Before going home. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yogis, they try to see also other planets. They're inquisitive. Instead of going directly to the planet of Kṛṣṇa, they want to see intermediate planets, how they are working. Bhagavān: Instead of an express to Goloka. *Prabhupāda: No. Yes. That is natural. Only the strong devotees, they don't like. "No, I don't want to see anything. I want to go immediately to Kṛṣṇa." That is strong devotion. Because they are after, mad after seeing Kṛṣṇa. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. For them, the whole universe is vacant for want of Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you love somebody, if he's not seen, you see, in spite of so many cars, you see the whole city of Paris, void, void. You don't give you any pleasure. A strong love for Kṛṣṇa. Śūnyāyitam. Śūnyāyitam means everything vacant. Without seeing Kṛṣṇa, everything is vacant. What is the value of this house or this city? He doesn't take. So higher planetary system means better standard of life. Just like if Indian comes here, materially, they see the higher standard of life in Paris, in London. But because we are interested in Kṛṣṇa, we do not take very much care of this higher standard of life. So higher planetary system means many, many thousand times better standard of life. Many, many thousand times. Just like Brahmaloka, the one day of Brahmā, described, you cannot even calculate mathematically. Just find out: sahasra*-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. This is the topmost planetary system, Brahmaloka, and the duration of life in Brahmaloka is described in the Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā. Sahasra... S-A-H. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam. *Bhagavān: This is Bhagavad*-gītā. Anna Conan Doyle: Oh. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Just like before you said you had a distaste for sight-seeing in Paris, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: You had a distaste for sightseeing wherever you were. Prabhupāda: No, I don't go. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Read. *Śrutakīrti: "The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of Brahmā and one day of Brahmā consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas or ages, Satya, Tretā, Dvāpara and Kali. A cycle of Satya is characterized by virtue, wisdom and religion, there being practically no ignorance and vice, and the yuga lasts one million, seven hundred and twenty*-eight thousand years. In the Tretā-yuga vice is introduced and this yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. In the Dvāpara-yuga there is an even greater decline in virtue and religion, vice increasing, and the yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally in Kali-yuga, the yuga we have now been experiencing over the past five thousand years, there is an abundance of strife, ignorance, irreligion and vice, true virtue being practically non-existent, and this yuga lasts 432,000 years. In Kali-yuga vice increases to such a point that at the termination of the yuga, the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the Kalki avatāra, vanquishes the demons, saves His devotees and commences another Satya-yuga. Then the process is set rolling again. These four yugas, rotating a thousand times, compromise one day of Brahmā, the creator god, and the same number compromise one night. Brahmā lives one hundred of such years and then dies. These hundred years, by Earth calculations total to 311,000,040,000,000 Earth years. By these calculations, a life of Brahmā seems fantastic and interminable, but from the point, from the viewpoint of eternity, it is as brief as a lightning flash. In the Causal Ocean, there are innumerable Brahmās, rising and disappearing like bubbles in the Atlantic. Brahmā and his creation are all part of the material universe, and therefore they are in constant flux. In the material universe, not even Brahmā is free from the process of birth, disease, old age and death. Brahmā, however, is directly engaged in the service of the Supreme Lord in the management of this universe. Therefore he at once attains liberation. Elevated sannyāsīs are promoted to Brahmā's particular planet, Brahmaloka, which is the highest planet in the material universe, and which survives all the heavenly planets in the upper strata of the planetary system. But in due course, Brahmā, and all inhabitants of Brahmaloka are subject to death, according to the law of material nature." *Prabhupāda: In the higher planetary system also, the four rules, birth, death, old age and disease, they are also there. The life is long duration. But the miserable conditions of, or living conditions, that one must die, that is there also. Simply if you go to Kṛṣṇa's planet, you haven't got to die. Ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna. *Śrutakīrti: Ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna, mām upetya... Prabhupāda: Upetya punar janma na vidyate. Śrutakīrti: Punar janma na vidyate. "From the highest planet in the material world to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again." Prabhupāda: Just see. So going to the higher planetary system means to achieve higher standard of life, but that does not mean solution of material problems. Just like Western countries, they are supposed to be living in higher standard of life than Eastern countries, but that does not mean they have conquered over death. That's not possible. They might possess a nice motor car, but the Eastern man may not possess. He has a bullock cart. This much advancement may be there. But the death, birth, death, is the same, in the Eastern and the Western. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Why should we think that birth and death is so painful, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because wherever we are, we can think about Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: But you feel pain, or do you like to die? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Well, some people like to travel. *Prabhupāda: Why it is painful. That is painful. You, even if you think, shudder, that "I have to die immediately," you'll shudder immediately. It is very painful. It is very painful because as soon as you die, you are again packed up within the womb of the mother to develop another body. And that is also not certain. Nowadays the father, mother is killing the child. So even if you develop a body to come with the expectation to come out, the father, mother kills you, again you have to enter another mother's body. Again you may be killed. This is the position of the sinful man. Because a man is sinful, he shudders. "Oh, again death is coming." So you, you cannot argue... Death is very painful. It is so painful that at the last stage, because the pain is not tolerated, the soul immediately gives up the body. Just like a man commits suicide. It is very painful. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha [Bg. 13.9]. It is painful. Duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. Anudarśanam means if he's a foolish, if he cannot understand, then he should understand described by higher authorities. It is painful. So unless you make a solution that no more birth, there is no question of getting out of the painful condition of material condition. That's not possible. Anna Conan Doyle: But what if you are reincarnated into other planets? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is easy. Anna Conan Doyle: Is it less painful, or is it the same procedure of...? Prabhupāda: As soon as you enter into the womb of a mother, it is painful. You are packed up like this, in this way. Can you, can you live for a few minutes, packed up like that, At the present moment, if I pack up and put in a bag, and then put in a box, how long you can exist? Anna Conan Doyle: But we are not conscious at, at that particular moment. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Just like surgical operation is going on. He's unconscious. That is another thing. By some method, he's unconscious. But the pain is there. The pain is there. The pain is not felt. Just like animals. They, they are in painful condition, but because they are animal, they do not feel it. On the horseback, you are driving horseback, like this, like this. It is painful, but because he's animal he cannot protect himself. It is very painful. Suppose if a chain is shackled on your mouth, and I constantly push like this...? Is it not painful? The horse is controlled by the mouth... Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, by the foot... Prabhupāda: By the chain, yes. Horse is very powerful animal than the man. How the man can control the horse? But he knows the trick, that it has to be controlled in the mouth. As soon as there is pain in the mouth, he becomes puzzled. He has to abide by the order. The man knows the tricks. Horse is not controlled by the tai... [break] ...he's controlled. Bhagavān: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So every animal can be controlled... Prabhupāda: Therefore there was a meeting of all animals that how to get out of the control of man. (laughter) The elephant said: "My dear sir, I am so powerful. I am also controlled by that. So it is useless to hold meeting." "I am also controlled by man." The meeting was organized by an ass. (laughter) He thought that: "I have to work so hard. Let us have a conference of animals to avoid man's control." But he saw that elephant also said that "I am so powerful. Still I am also controlled by the man. So it is useless." Anna Conan Doyle: But many human beings get into the same conditions. Prabhupāda: Similarly, our position is like that, like ass. We are also trying to get out of the control of material nature. Like an ass. But it is not possible. The conference is failure. Here, in the material world, even a so powerful being as Brahmā, he's also controlled. By God. He's also controlled. You have seen that picture? Brahmā is bowing down before Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: You remember this picture? In the temple in Geneva? Brahmā with four heads is offering respects to Kṛṣṇa. Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's the controller of the whole universe. He also bowing down before little Kṛṣṇa. "Sir, I wanted to show You my superior power, but I am insignificant before You." Brahmā stole away all His calves and cows and cowherd boys, and he saw again the same calves and cows and boys are playing with Him. So he became surprised: "How is that? I took away, and again He's keeping. He has expanded himself." You have read that portion? So God is called self*-sufficient because He can expand Himself to satisfy His needs, whatever He wants. So He doesn't require anyone's help. He's completely independent. But still He's so kind that He comes to your temple, as He has come today, and He's dependent. If you give Him some foodstuff, He'll eat. Otherwise, He'll starve. So we should always remember the most powerful, self-sufficient has come kindly at my place, just to become dependent on my foodstuff. This is His kindness. And if we think: "Oh, I am giving food to Kṛṣṇa. What is Kṛṣṇa?" Then you are finished. You have to think always that He is self-sufficient. But He's so kind, in spite of His being self-sufficient, He invites my, He accepts my invitation, and He has come. We have to treat in that way. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Do you have any questions about the ceremony that you saw this morning? Anna Conan Doyle: Yes. I wanted to know what was that, the meaning of that mark you made... Bhagavān: Oh, from the fire. Anna Conan Doyle: The fire, yes. Yes, oil and... Was it a third eye? Prabhupāda: No. Anna Conan Doyle: That means you are dust and you become dust again, or what? Prabhupāda: No, we attended the ceremony. (laughter) Bhagavān: It is a souvenir of the ceremony. Prabhupāda: You were not marked because you did not attend the ceremony. Anna Conan Doyle: I see. It's just a sign. It has no particular meaning. Prabhupāda: No, this is the general meaning. And this is blessing. After, after the ceremony, if there is any blessing, you get the blessing. Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: It's a nicer kind of souvenir than the kind you find in Paris. Anna Conan Doyle: Exactly, (indistinct) to my eye. Prabhupāda: Just like nowadays, voting, the man who goes to put his vote, he's marked with a star here. You know that? That means he cannot come again. He cannot represent a false voter. Like that. [break] ...book you are reading now, my books? Anna Conan Doyle: At the moment, *Gītā*. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Very nice. Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, yes. That is a very complicated book. To read many, many, many times. *Prabhupāda: That is the elementary ABCD. Yes. Here is a statement of my interview with the Vice*-president. [break] Just Arjuna, he was a family man. Is it not? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Arjuna, in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, Arjuna, yes. *Prabhupāda: Not only family man, he was in the battlefield. So if he could understand Bhagavad*-gītā in that position, why we cannot? Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, that's right. *Prabhupāda: So it is no question of you have to give up family life. There is no such thing. You have to understand the science. Arjuna was a family man. After understanding Bhagavad*-gītā, he did not give up family. Anna Conan Doyle: No. Prabhupāda: No. So it is a wrong impression that to become Kṛṣṇa conscious one has to give up family relations. No, that's not the fact. Sometimes people think like that, but that is wrong thinking. Anna Conan Doyle: (indistinct) mixed up... Prabhupāda: Spiritual understanding does not depend on material conditions, no. Anna Conan Doyle: That is true, that is true. *Prabhupāda: You may be in any material condition. Still you can develop your spiritual consciousness. That is there. But sometimes we accept a certain position for our personal convenience. That is another thing. But spiritual consciousness is not dependent on any material condition. It is spontaneous. Either he's a householder or a sannyāsī or brahmacārī or business man, or... It doesn't matter. He can become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious if he accepts the principles. [break] ...we have got our regulative principles, no illicit sex. So is it very difficult thing? A householder has got his wife. Why he should indulge in illicit sex? It is simply self*-control. (aside:) You can keep it here. If somebody comes, you shall give him. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: If our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dependent on some material condition which we are in, then our material condition is superior to God consciousness. "Oh, I am a businessman. I cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious." That means business is more than Kṛṣṇa. Anna Conan Doyle: Yes, but I think that we have to have businessmen who are business conscious. Otherwise our world would come to a stand still. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Exactly. Anna Conan Doyle: And even you people you have to have people donate like we have the Catholic church... Prabhupāda: The difficulty is... Anna Conan Doyle: ...is to make from the people are working, we are dependent on the materialistic man also... Prabhupāda: No, the difficulty is that we are not satisfied with our living condition. Suppose I am, I have got this body. To maintain this body, I require my food, and for getting the food, I must have some money. I must have some occupation. This is one thing. But people are now... Suppose one thousand francs will provide his family, himself. He's not satisfied with one thousand francs. He wants ten thousand. That is the fault. Therefore he does not find time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anna Conan Doyle: That's right. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the disease. Otherwise, if, if everyone is satisfied when the necessities is supplied and balance time he saves for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no difficulty. But he is, he is always, twenty*-four hours busy, how to increase, how to increase. Yes. Anna Conan Doyle: It becomes a vice. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Yes. Yes. Greediness. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ [NoI 2]. Atyāhāra. Atyāhāra means eating more, or collecting more. So they want to eat more, collect more than necessity. Anna Conan Doyle: That's true. They do not need all the things they have around. It is perfectly... *Prabhupāda: For livelihood, one has to work. That is material world. So you work. And what is that work? If one, one works for three months on the field, he can get his whole years' food. That is economically fact. How many mounds of grains we can produce per acre? Do you know that? We know, in our Indian calculation, we can produce at least ten mounds of grain per bighā. So if one has got ten bighās of land, he can produce hundred mounds of grains. So how much you can eat daily. Just compute it. Utmost two pounds. Utmost. So if you eat two pounds grains per day. In a month, sixty pounds. And eighty*-two pounds makes one mound. You are getting one thousand mounds. One thousand mounds. Then? Ten bighās of land... Bhagavān: One hundred mounds. Prabhupāda: One hundred. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Mounds. Prabhupāda: So you get enough food by working three months. But they'll not work in the field. They'll work in the factory. The... Now the world situation is there that they have invented so many artificial work. So people are embarrassed with this kind of work. He doesn't find any time. Anna Conan Doyle: He's not trained. Prabhupāda: Eh? Anna Conan Doyle: He's not trained. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the... So if we make our living condition very simple, there is enough time, enough time. But we don't say that you go back to the primitive stage of life. That is not possible. We simply request that wherever you are, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. Then everything will be clear. And we are not charging anything for that, that: "You give me so many pounds. I'll give you a mantra." Not like that. [break] There is no necessity. Unnecessarily they are killing animals, and becoming sinful. So they have created their own field of activities just to become bereft of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Formerly, in the human society, there was no slaughterhouse. If they wanted to kill one animal, they went to the forest or anywhere. Kill one animal and eat it. But here it is now regular business. Somebody's supplying cows regularly by increasing livestock. That has become his business. And somebody's killing. So we have invented so many things like that, simply for sinful activities. How we can become happy? It is not possible. So many big, big factories for producing beer and liquor. But they have become accustomed to this. And the net result is now we increasing the hippie population. This irresponsible life is producing children, most irresponsible, brainless. Yes. But they have no eyes to see, that "How we are degrading. This is our children." I have been to Amsterdam. One park, there is... Bhagavān: Fondel Park. Prabhupāda: Bondel Park? Bhagavān: Fondel. Prabhupāda: Fondel. So hippies are there. Oh, how wretchedly, voluntarily they are living. They don't require to live in that way, but they are living. Lying down on the ground. No regulated principle. They do not know where to eat, where to sleep. Unnecessarily. Thousands of hippies. And they are thinking they're happy. Haṁsadūta: Yes, they think it is very nice. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We were also discussing with Mrs. Conan Doyle and a friend of hers, how is it, if I'm thinking I am happy, or I do not have love for God, nor do I want to have love for God, how will I cultivate it? Prabhupāda: Well, because at the present age we are in crazy or mad condition... What is called? Deformed brain. Therefore we cannot become. There is a poetry. Piśācī paile jana moti chana haya (?). As one becomes crazy when it is ghostly haunted, similarly a person under the clutches of māyā, he becomes also crazy like that. He talks all nonsense. How he can understand about God? Big, big hospitals in America for curing this craziness. Not only of the common being. Even for the priests. In America, they have got hospital for curing alcoholic habit of the priest. Five thousand patients. So he's alcoholic and he's in the priestly dress. This is going on. Because he's getting his salary, so he's maintaining his priestly dress. But internally, what he is, he knows only. Or when he comes into the open eyes, then one can know: "Oh, here is a priest, admitted in the alcoholic hospital." (end) Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris Prabhupāda: His name was Gopāla Banh. Gopāla Banh ...And there was a king, Kṛṣṇacandra. So the kings would relax by joking words by the jokers. That was system formerly. So Gopāla Banh was constructing a house. So the king advised another friend that: "If you go to his new house and evacuate..." Because the house is not yet opened, not yet established, "Then I'll give you one thousand rupees." So this man said: "Yes, I'll go and do it." So he was, he came to Gopāla Banh's house and began to say: "Gopāla Banh! Oh! I am called by nature. Kindly show me where is your privy. I have to pass." So he could understand that: "Why this man has come here to evacuate?" So he: "Yes, yes. Come in, come in, come in." So he opened the new lavatory and brought a big stick. So he said: "Why you have brought the stick?" So he said: "Yes, you can pass, you can pass stool, but if you urine one drop, I'll kill you." So "How it is possible?" "If it is not possible, I cannot allow." So these, these foolish scientific men, "You can speak, but if you use microphone, then I'll kill you." Yes. The Gopāla Banh's policy. They would not say: "Not allow." But in a different way. [break] For political diplomacy. Not directly: "No." But creating such position, it is not. You are chanting also? Sixteen rounds? Eh? Girl: (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: See says she's trying her best to do so. Prabhupāda: All right. Something is better than nothing. *Devotee: I had one question about the nature of transcendental knowledge. And it said in Bhagavad*-gītā that transcendental knowledge is of a nature that it is like fire. It burns to ashes the reactions to sinful activity. But... It may be sort of a nonsense question. But I couldn't understand how it is, what, how it, how, what is the nature of knowledge that it can do this? How does transcendental knowledge burn to ashes the reactions of sinful... *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you always engage your mind in transcendental topics, naturally all other nonsense topics will be stopped. Or you'll have no interest in such topics. That is burned down. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anya... [SB 11.2.42]. That is the test. If you increase your devotion, then you'll be not interested in ordinary things. Just like our devotees, they are no more interested in the worldly topics. They do not like to go to the cinema. That is no more interest. We can see the film of Ratha*-yātrā, but we are no more interested to see ordinary film. Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the word kṣetrajña... Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Kṣetrajña, the knower of the body. Haṁsadūta: Kṣetrajña. Prabhupāda: Kṣetrajña. Bhagavān: Kṣetrajña. Is that for one who is differentiating himself from this body? In other words, a person who has realized that there is field and there is knower, is he given that title or is the person who cannot make that distinction, is he also given that title? Prabhupāda: No. Anyone who knows that... That I have explained. That everyone is sitting on the floor. So everyone knows that he is not floor. He's different from the floor. Is it very difficult? Bhagavān: No. Prabhupāda: So this is knower. Similarly by common sense we can understand that we are not this body. Yogeśvara: It says in the purport: "Now the person who identifies himself with the body is called kṣetrajña, the knower of the field." Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: In the purport it says: "The body is called kṣetra, or the field of activity for the conditioned soul, and the person who identifies himself with the body is called kṣetra, kṣetrajña, the knower of the field." Prabhupāda: No, no. It is wrongly written. Yogeśvara: Ah. It's everyone, everyone. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yogeśvara: Not just those people. Prabhupāda: Identifies with the body. He's not kṣetrajña. Yogeśvara: He does not know. Prabhupāda: No. It is wrongly written. Bhagavān: That was no my question. This was my question. Prabhupāda: Ah. Oh, it is wrongly written. Bhagavān: From the lecture, from lecture, when one can... Prabhupāda: Who does not identify, it should be. Yogeśvara: Who does not identify. Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is wrong. *Bhagavān: That's always questioned in Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: It is not, has been mis*-edited. If you identify with body, how you know it? Oh, it is a very great mistake. Bhagavān: We can, we can write them, make that correction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Write immediately. One must know that I am not this body. That is knowledge. That is knower. That is common sense. I say: "It is my body." I don't say: "I body." That I explained. One who does, one who knows that "I am not this body," he's real knower. And one who knows that: "I am this body," he does not know. He's in ignorance. Just like Danielou. Yogeśvara: A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he can maintain his position in family, government, business, anything. Prabhupāda: Why not? All these Pāṇḍavas, they were government men. How they maintained Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja... They were fighting for political reasons. So they were Kṛṣṇa conscious, fully. [break] ...who identifies with this body, he's described as cow or ass. How he can be knower? It is wrongly edited. The word: "Not". It was edited by whom? Hayagrīva? Haṁsadūta: Hayagrīva. Bhagavān: Jayādvaita. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Haṁsadūta: Hayagrīva also... Bhagavān: Hayagrīva and Jayādvaita. Prabhupāda: This should be corrected immediately. Bhagavān: [break] He asked you a question about transcendental knowledge, and actually you explained that knowledge is not one thing, but it's composed of three things, it is the object, the knower and the process. That is all knowledge. *Prabhupāda: Knower, knowledge and the object. The object is Kṛṣṇa and you are knower, or trying to know. And the process is bhakti. That's all. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to adopt the process of bhakti. No other process. It is clearly stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. No other process. No speculative philosophy or meditation. It is not possible. So bhakti is the process, you are the knower, and Kṛṣṇa is knowable. That's all. [break] ...vādī, impersonalists, they say ultimately the knower, knowable and the known becomes one. That is their philosophy. Monists. There is no more knower, no knowable, the knower... Simply knowledge. They say simply knowledge. Oneness. *Yogeśvara: You quoted... In the course of your lecture this morning, you quoted that verse from the Tenth Chapter, dadāmi buddhi*-yogaṁ tam. When that knowledge comes, the devotee is qualified by some degree of advancement? Prabhupāda: Yes. The more he's qualified, the direction comes from Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: And what is the... What form does that direction take? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: And what form does that direction take? Prabhupāda: In whichever way. The real direction is that he may come back to home, back to Godhead after giving up this body. Yogeśvara: Is that buddhi, that intelligence manifested in some way, in his service, or in his thinking? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because the process is devotion, bhakti. Bhakti means not idle. Activities. Bhakti is not idle gossip. It is something, activity. Therefore karmīs sometimes misunderstand that they are working like us. So where is the... what does it mean, bhakti? Just like Arjuna is fighting. But ordinary man will see that he's a soldier, he's fighting. What is this bhakti? But Kṛṣṇa certifies: "Yes, you are My devotee." By fighting, he's devotee. Because he's fighting for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti. Similarly, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, whatever you do, that is bhakti. Karmīs cannot see. Karmīs see... [break] ...tiki, laukikī, vaidikī. Laukikī means material activities. And vaidikī means according to Vedic instruction. Whatever you do, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, then it is bhakti. Yogeśvara: Laukikī and vaidi...? Prabhupāda: Laukikī. Laukikī means ordinary, common activities. And vaidikī means Vedic. Just like a man is doing business as motorcars. So he has to do business as other motor car dealers do. So this is laukikī. It is not vaidikī. In vaidika instruction, there is no such thing, that "You do motor business like this." Therefore it is laukikī. So either laukikī or vaidikī, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, it is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa also says: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad... [Bg. 9.27]. Yat karoṣi means whatever you do,... "Whatever" means the activity must be laukikī or vaidikī. "Whatever." There is no restriction, that only vaidikī. No. Even laukikī. Whatever you do. Find out this verse: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi tapasyasi yat. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda: Purport. Haṁsadūta: Purport: "This is the duty of everyone to mold his life in such a way that he will not forget Kṛṣṇa in any circumstance. Everyone has to work for maintenance of his body and soul together, and Kṛṣṇa recommends herein that one should work for Him. Everyone has to eat something to live. Therefore he should accept the remnants of foodstuffs offered to Kṛṣṇa. Any civilized man has to perform some religious..." Prabhupāda: "You give Me." "Whatever you eat, you give Me," Kṛṣṇa says. Haṁsadūta: "Any civilized man has to perform some religious ritualistic ceremonies. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends..." Haṁsadūta: This is vaidikī. Haṁsadūta: "...Do it for Me." Yogeśvara: Vaidikī. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Haṁsadūta: "...and this is called arcanā. Everyone has a tendency to give something in charity. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Give it to Me.' And this means that all surplus money accumulated should be utilized in furthering the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nowadays people are very much inclined to the meditational process, which is not practical in this age. But if anyone practices meditating on Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra around his beads, he is surely, he is surely the greatest yogi, as substantiated by the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā." *Yogeśvara: (indistinct) there's that Prof. Kotovsky who was raising an objection. He was saying that your four*-class system may work well in a simple agrarian culture like in India, but here where things are much more complicated, it would never work. Prabhupāda: It is already there. He is professor, why? (laughter) That is their rascaldom. They are doing the same thing. But still they are decrying the process. Why you have become professor? You remain ordinary worker. There is no need of professor. Why he has become professor of Indology? And there is two, amongst the workers also, there are two classes, manager class, worker class. You have to divide. Without division... [break] Just like this body is not a lump of matter. There is division. Without division, the body cannot work. Yogeśvara: So that's no excuse that there is... Prabhupāda: That means... these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest. That why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people? That is our protest. You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that? Just like the professor who was speaking that by four, combination of four chemicals, life has come. And as soon as he was challenged that: "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say." Then what is the use of speaking like that? So they're cheating, and people are being cheated. Still, they're given Nobel Prize. "Oh, here is a big man." They'll talk all nonsense. At, at the same time, they'll become professor, teacher. And people will accept. So at least let us protest against this system. *Bhagavān: Guru*-gaurāṅga , that kīrtana's too loud downstairs. There was a professor who came to see you in London, the religion professor. Haṁsadūta: Professor Hardin. Bhagavān: When he said that: "Many times, my students ask me questions that I do not know. So I try to answer." But you said: "If you do not know, you should not teach." You said: "Our philosophy is that if you do not know, you should step down." He said: "I cannot do that." Prabhupāda: He's getting salary, money. No sincerity. Bhagavān: So actually a devotee has answer for every question. *Prabhupāda: That is devotee, who can answer any question. Everything is discussed in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Everything, complete knowledge. Now in Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that this cosmic manifestation... Now you find out this verse: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Mayā. M-a-y-a. Devotee: Still too loud. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: It's too loud downstairs. There have been complaints from the neighbors. Prabhupāda: Loud, they are very good. How can you stop it? As soon as you chant, somebody... That you cannot check. You may stop mṛdaṅga. That's all. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda: So when Kṛṣṇa is directing, is it aimless? The whole cosmic manifestation, is it aimless? There is some purpose. Otherwise, why God has created, and He's directing? These people, they cannot understand it. Yogeśvara: They'll challenge. They have arguments. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: They will say that: "If you..." Just like... Actually things... There is no order behind things. If you throw a ball against a wall... Prabhupāda: Who is rascal throwing that ball? Who is that rascal? Throwing that ball? If you are giving that example, somebody's throwing ball, who is that rascal, throwing that ball? Yogeśvara: Let's say someone who wants to prove there's no direction to the way..." Prabhupāda: Rascal, if you, as soon as you say: "Throwing ball," somebody's throwing. How can you deny it? You give the example, "throwing ball," but throwing ball means somebody's throwing. Bhagavān: The original thrower. Prabhupāda: Yes. The motion is given by somebody. Devotee: What they said in East Berlin... Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal. Bhagavān: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical. Prabhupāda: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point? Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything... Prabhupāda: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there? Devotee: Well, that's what they say. Prabhupāda: They say that rascaldom. That word say. Devotee: I just say what they say. Prabhupāda: But you are saying... Was this tape recorder was existing, or somebody has prepared? Yogeśvara: A man has prepared it. Prabhupāda: Man has prepared it. Then somebody must prepare. Yogeśvara: But it's man's intelligence that has created that machine. Prabhupāda: Well, man or somebody, but try to understand generally: Anything that you see, that is created by man or beast or somebody. It is created. So this cosmic manifestation, why do you say that it is not created? It is created. You do not know who has created. That is your ignorance. But as I have no experience, in this material world, which is not created... It is created. You are created. Still. How can you say it is not created? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: But then the profane, Prabhupāda, they say that: "Let us carry that logic to the very end, that even God is created. Then why... You say God is having no..." Prabhupāda: No. No. God is created, you can say. But when a created thing is, then he's not God. Our, our proposition is that everything is created, but finally if we find somebody, he's not created, then he's God. Yogeśvara: They would say: our conclusion was just now that everything has to have been created. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Everything has some source of origin. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: So if everything has some source of origin, how can there be something that does not have a source of origin? Prabhupāda: No, when there is no source of origin, that is God. Bhagavān: Just like Kṛṣṇa showed Arjuna His universal form. So He established that He was the origin of everything, and He had no cause. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Cause of all causes. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Everything has some cause, but when you finally come to a thing who has no cause, then He's God. Bhagavān: The rascals... *Prabhupāda: Vedānta*-sūtra: janmādyasya yataḥ. The origin of everything. But He's not originated from something else. And that is God. Therefore He's called Absolute. Everything here is relative. And God is Absolute. That is the difference between Absolute and relative. Bhagavān: They are like children. They want to see that... They are like children. They want to see that original cause immediately. And if they do not see the original cause immediately, they say there is no original cause. Prabhupāda: That is childish. That is childish. Yogeśvara: So let's say someone proposes that God has created everyone equal... Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Yogeśvara: God has created everyone equal. God has created all His children as equal spiritual beings. So why is it that, that one person is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, and I have no interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means we're not equal, there's some flaw in God's creation. Prabhupāda: No, that is your flaw. That is your flaw. God says that: "You simply surrender unto Me." But does it mean that everyone is surrendering to God? Yogeśvara: No. Then they're not equal. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Then God's creations are not... *Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that... Suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that: "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so*-called independent, when he does not do, according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say everyone of my students that: "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Their argument is... They will say that just the fact that the living entity has the independence and, and the possibility is there for him to make a mistake, they consider it to be a flaw. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: If it's better to be... Haṁsadūta: But they consider it to be God's flaw. Prabhupāda: No, why God's flaw. Yogeśvara: Because He has given us the chance to fall down. Prabhupāda: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence. Yogeśvara: Then why has He given us independence if... Prabhupāda: Yes, He must give because we, He, He has got... Yogeśvara: ...if we misuse it? Prabhupāda: He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore you must have independence. Otherwise, how he becomes perfect part and parcel? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: And if he did not have independence, that would be the flaw. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be the fault. Bhagavān: That makes everything complete. Prabhupāda: Yes. Independence means that you can do or not do. That is independence. Bhagavān: Their definition of perfect is wrong. Just like this boy's definition of a poet. Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to... There are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatles. As if... Beatles have made money. They'll also make money. That is the... And speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellows. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation, or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why this nonsense question. When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is a common sense affair. The God has given you independence. If you do something wrong, against the will of God, then you must suffer. Therefore we find so many varieties of living entities. In different grades of life. That is due to misuse of independence. Yogeśvara: Very popular today is the idea that if we are use, misusing our independence, it's because of our upbringing, our childhood, our society, something is wrong in our psychology. Not that it's the soul, not that it's a question of spiritual problem, but material one, that our parents were cruel or our society, our education was imperfect or something. But not spiritual problem. Prabhupāda: So that is independence. Your parents were cruel. Therefore you have revolted against the parents. That is your independence. Why you revolted against parents? Because you have got the independence. Devotee: What shall we say to someone, Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that: "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence. Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence. Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence. Prabhupāda: Not lost. Misused. Haṁsadūta: Fallen into māyā. Or misused. *Prabhupāda: Not lost. Independence still there. He can go back again to father, go back to home, back to Godhead. God says that: sarva*-dharmān... "You have come here to enjoy your independence, but you have created a havoc, entanglement. Now, if you simply surrender unto Me, abide by My orders, I give you all concessions. Immediately you are free from all reaction and come back to Me." Therefore, God comes to canvass, He sends His devotee to canvass, that: "You give up your misuse of independence and become happy." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness program. But if you still stick to the independence, misuse of independence, you remain here. Bhagavān: The trouble with these philosophies is these philosophers are simply stubborn. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: The problem with these different discussions is these philosophers are simply stubborn. When they hear a better philosophy, they still will not change. Prabhupāda: That, that is independence. That is also independence. You accept: "Yes, what you say, it is right. But I'll not accept." That is also independence, misuse of independence. Yogeśvara: Like Dhṛtarāṣṭra, when he heard the arguments from Vidura. Prabhupāda: Yes. So God's creation is perfect. There is no imperfect. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Does there come a time Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one misuses his independence, the independence is taken away? For example, if... Prabhupāda: Now why shall He take away. What He has given to you, why He shall take? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: In animal life? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Animal life? Prabhupāda: Animal life, what is that? Yogeśvara: Do animals also have independence? Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got little independence. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They say, "All is instinct." *Prabhupāda: You say. They say, all rascals say. But actually this is independence, but because they're animals, they are directed by nature, more or less. Just like they do not... My point is they do not misuse independence as much as a human being does. You see. Just like a tiger. He is to eat animals, killing animals. He does not come to your orchard to steal your fruits. But you, rascal human being, you eat fruits and animals both. Animal, that is instinct. Animal... Suppose if you put-I've given this example many times*-a bag of rice on the street. Many birds will come. But he will eat some grains, five grains, ten grains and twenty grains, as much he can eat, and go away. But you do the same favor to the human beings, there will be fight. Everyone will try to take some more quantity in the house and stock it. Therefore, the human being is more responsible for sinful activities. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: So the rascal thinks that independence, the manifestation, the symptom of independence is to misuse independence. Prabhupāda: What? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He thinks the symptom... I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence. Prabhupāda: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: So real independence means to surrender then. *Prabhupāda: Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to māyā. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer. The Absolute Independent is God, Kṛṣṇa. Just like government. The government orders: let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot. Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Yogeśvara: There are so many young people who, when we try to preach to them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we explain that it means to accept the position of service, service position, they reject it because they have no experience of service that is satisfying. Prabhupāda: Hm? They have rejected so many things. Why not your proposal? Just like the hippies. They have rejected so many things. Why shall he accept your proposal? Why you think that your proposal is so nice, he'll accept immediately? Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach to them. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach... *Prabhupāda: You preach. You just purify them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let him hear. Then he'll accept. Then he will gradually come. Yes. He's now in diseased condition. The best thing is to chant. By hearing the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be gradually purified, cleansed, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You must polish him. Just like this is unclean. Polish it and you'll see the reflection. Our process is paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. [break] ...śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi... [SB 1.2.17]. *Yogeśvara: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Yogeśvara: Second Chapter. Prabhupāda: Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām. Yogeśvara: Verse number seven, Second Chapter. Prabhupāda: Everyone is diseased. So you have to give the medicine and gradually he'll be cured. Just like when I came first, nobody was my devotee. But the medicine was given, little, little, little. And they became. So you cannot immediately expect that everyone will hear your words. Why? What you are? Why shall he respect you? Cure them. What is that? You have got it? Haṁsadūta: No. *Prabhupāda: In the First Part, there is. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Kīrtana. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. If one hears from you, he doesn't do. If he simply hears Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then he'll be purified. Simply by hearing. Bhagavān: But we can understand that even though we present so many good arguments, philosophically, if a person still does not accept it is simply because he is addicted to sinful activity. So therefore there's nothing other to do than chant. Prabhupāda: Hearing is the first. Saṅkīrtana. Let him..., give, give him chance for hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: *Prabhupāda: The Paramātmā... Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi. He's also kṣetrajña. He's also in the body. So here He does His work. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Yes. Read the translation. Haṁsadūta: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted." Prabhupāda: Yes. The chanting and hearing goes on. And if one agrees to hear and chant, then Kṛṣṇa helps from within. He cleanses. Suhṛt satām. Because He wants to reform them. Suhṛt satām. Everyone, especially the devotee. So He helps cleanse him. In this way, if he's given chance to hear, again and again, then the next verse... See. Haṁsadūta: The next verse? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Haṁsadūta: Naṣṭa*-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata... [SB 1.2.18]. *Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa*-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. His heart is filled up with so many dirty things. So by that process, when he agrees to hear, chanting and hearing... Therefore we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." I say Hare Kṛṣṇa, and we ask others to chant. Response. By this process, his heart becomes cleansed. And next verse says: naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. Not that it has become completely cleansed. A little, or almost cleansed. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu. *Haṁsadūta: Nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā. *Prabhupāda: By this process, nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā, by hearing the message of Kṛṣṇa, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that is also about Kṛṣṇa, chanting about Kṛṣṇa, nityam daily, regularly, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā... Haṁsadūta: Bhagavaty uttama-śloke... Prabhupāda: Bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī. Then he becomes fixed up in devotional service. Not that he has completely become cleansed. Even little cleansed, then he will engage. Then he will hear. "What does he say?" Unclean, how he can take up? Haṁsadūta: He can't accept it. *Prabhupāda: No. Unclean. Therefore we make more cleaner, cleaner, cleaner, cleaner. The more he becomes cleansed, he can understand. He'll accept. But unclean state, you do not expect. So the process of cleanliness is this ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ, paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The more they read literature, the more hear, more chanting, in this way, gradually... Then next verse? *Haṁsadūta: Tadā rajas*-tamo... *Prabhupāda: Tadā rajas*-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. Haṁsadūta: Ceta etair... *Prabhupāda: Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. In this way, as the heart becomes cleansed, he revives his quality of goodness. And when he's situated in the quality of goodness, the other two qualities, passion and ignorance, cannot infect him. By this process. Rajas*-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. The example is kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. When one is too much affected with the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, passion and ignorance... What is this kāma? Lusty and greediness. These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-guṇa. So then therefore we see that all people are lusty and greedy. So as soon as he becomes cleansed, come to the standard of goodness, these two qualities cannot affect him anymore. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. One has to take the process. And it is simple process. Simple... And that, that is actually happening, in our practical experience. They say, they say... They are all rascals, fools. They can say anything and everything. Pāgale kim abole chāgale kiṁ na khāoyā. In the Bengali it is said: A madman, what does he not speak? He speaks any nonsense. And a goat, what does he not eat? So if you keep a madman... They are keeping them mad... That is our protest, that why you are keeping all people mad, crazy, nonsense? And you are also teacher, university? They have no knowledge that what is the aim of life. That you have to protest. So as we gradually increase our strength, our number, we have to protest to the world that: "Why you rascal and fools, keeping the whole human society in darkness? You have no knowledge." Here God says that: 'Under My direction the prakṛti's working.' You have no knowledge. You are saying that there is no aim. Without aim, why God should create this, such a big gigantic manifestation. Why He should take responsibility? Is there no responsibility to maintain this gigantic... God has got immense power. He can maintain. That is another thing. But why He should take the responsibility? Just like government creates a big prison house. It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith(?). They are to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions of living entities are there. They have to be trained up. They have to be provided with all necessities of life. This responsibility's there. And actually God is doing that. He's giving food. He's giving necessities. Why? There is some aim. The aim is that they have misused their independence. Try to reform them again (indistinct). This is the aim. All these living entities in the material world, the have misused their independence. Therefore, they are in the material world. Otherwise why should they remain in the material world? Anyone who is in this material world, it is to be understood that he's misused his independence. (end) Conversation -- August 12, 1973, Paris *(Conversation with Yadubara About Early Life & Childhood Ratha*-yäträ Festival) *Prabhupāda: . . . of the same age of neighboring quarters, they will join. There will be feast, procession, saṅkīrtana , everything in miniature form. And my father will be spend. He will not hesitate. Yes. Therefore, my father's friends used to joke the "Ratha*-yātrā ceremony is going on at your home, and you do not invite us. What is this?" (laughs) Father would reply, "They are all children playing." "Oh, children playing. You are avoiding us by the name of children." It was regular procession. And for eight days there was feasting. Yadubara: That was at the same time as the big procession? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yadubara: That was the same time as the big procession? *Prabhupāda: Yes. During the Ratha*-yātrā festival. Eight days, eight different varieties of foodstuff my mother would cook and offer to Jagannātha. Daily bhoga-ārātrika , decoration with flowers. It was regular. Yadubara: What did the cart look like? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: What did the ratha cart look like? Just a miniature of the one at Purī? Prabhupāda: That I can give you diagram. I will give. Because I played with, I remember perfectly. Yadubara: What about . . . did the girls participate? Did the . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Yadubara: Small girls? Prabhupāda: Small girls, they participated, one or two. Yadubara: How many boys were there? Prabhupāda: All . . . not less than a dozen. And then public will gather. So it was regular procession. Not very big. Everyone knew that, "It is children; they are playing." Yadubara: Did they play at . . . Prabhupāda: The ratha, ratha I used to decorate myself, painting, with color. I will give you a diagram of the ratha . (Prabhupāda draws) (break) Covering. This is diagram. Yadubara: So this was . . . it is not solid inside, so that you could see through. Prabhupāda: No, there were many columns. Sixteen columns supporting. Śrutakīrti: Like the ratha cart here, with the columns? The wooden . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Here there is not column. Yadubara: This was horse? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wooden horse. Yadubara: This is driver. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: What kind of clothing did the boys wear, did you wear? Prabhupāda: No, no, ordinary. Yadubara: Just shorts? Prabhupāda: No, ordinary . . . yes, dhotī and shirt. Yadubara: Dhotī and shirt. Prabhupāda: Someone without any shirt, because it is summer season. So there was no particular dress. Yadubara: And were there instruments you were playing? Prabhupāda: Yes, on this khol, karatāla , then that chaazh . Where is our Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Devotee: I'll go and get him. Prabhupāda: And call also Haṁsadūta. Yadubara: When you did Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yadubara: When you did Deity worship as a child . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Yadubara: . . . how did you do? Prabhupāda: I would imitate the brahmiṇs and my father. Yadubara: With the lamp and the incense? *Prabhupāda: Everything, complete. I would perform ārātrika and offer prasādam . Rādhā*-Govinda Deities, there was altar decorated, small Deity, daily changing cloth. Everything. Offering obeisances. Everything. *Yadubara: When you . . . would the ratha ceremony go on in the court of Rādhā*-Govinda temple, in the courtyard? Prabhupāda: No, that was . . . they are separate. I was doing in my . . . but I was imitating how the worship is going on there. *Yadubara: Would the ratha cart . . . was that going on in the courtyard, Rādhā*-Govinda? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The first courtyard from the road. That circle? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Just inside. Prabhupāda: There inside there, and stay for some time, then again circling, go away. Our house was . . . you know that Mullik's house? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was also Mullik's house, our. Our number was 151, and in the middle there was 153, and their house is 155. Just moment. Have you written anything about that article? Pradyumna: Yes, I'm just finishing editing it. Prabhupāda: Alright. That's alright. Then you shall send it on. *Haṁsadūta: Ah*-huh. When he is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: So part of the movie, it calls for either some narration by yourself . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: Or It calls for some narration, either by yourself or by someone else. Prabhupāda: No. Someone else can narrate. Yadubara: We wanted to describe the Deity worship, why we are worshiping Deities, because people . . . *Prabhupāda: I was simply imitating because my father was worshiping, and we were always going that Mullik's Rādhā*-Govinda temple, their festival. We are practically same family. I was known as one of the children of Mullik's family. Others, other neighborhood men, they would know that I was belonging to their family. Because the house in which we are living, that belonged to the Mullik family, one partner. Yadubara: I saw that beautiful room, very aristocratic room, with chandelier and glass. Prabhupāda: They were . . . now they have reduced. Otherwise they were the most aristocratic family of Calcutta. Kashinath Mullik. There are roads and names, Kashinath Mullik name. We belonged to . . . the house where we were living, that was Kashinath Mullik's second brother. Second brother. So his wife was living, and she was a distant relative, grandmother, of me. So she had no children. So we were living. With some relative he (she) was living. Yadubara: So we wanted to explain to the in the movie to people in general how the Deity worship is authorized: how it's not worshiping just stone, how the Deity is actually Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's quality, they are all the same. That you know. You can explain. Yadubara: Also we wanted to give some, just some very brief explanation of your past: how you were attached to Kṛṣṇa from the very beginning of your life, how your friends offered you intoxication. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). It has come from previous life. Therefore I was given the opportunity to take birth in that family, Kṛṣṇa association. And my father was a great Vaiṣṇava. So śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ. Both things were confirmed. My father was śuci, and although I did not belong to that family, but I was born in that aristocratic family and I was raised amongst them. So that confirms: this Kṛṣṇa consciousness coming from previous life. And some very authorized astrologers said that in my previous life I was a physician, and I did not commit any sinful act. He said like that. The only, if it is taken as sinful, I killed some snakes for medicinal purpose. Otherwise I did not commit any sin. He said like that. (laughing) And it is right, because I had tendency in my childhood play to imitate the physician. I would keep some medicine, and my playmates would come, I would feel their pulse and give some medicine. (devotees laugh) This was my play, I remember. Yes. Some powders. Haṁsadūta: Pills? Prabhupāda: No, pills . . . (laughs) very small child at the time. So I would play that my playmates would come as patient, they would stand. I would give them some medicine. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: And still you are giving medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes, I was doing medicinal business. I was appointed Dr. Bose's laboratory manager. Haṁsadūta: But still you are giving medicine. You are giving Kṛṣṇa medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhavauṣadhi . I know to prepare so many medicines still. Practically all allopathic medicine I can prepare. Āyurvedic also, some of. What is that there written in the book, I can prepare. So that confirms my previous life also. Yadubara: We wanted to include some very brief notes on your family. You had some family life and business. Prabhupāda: Family, my father was a businessman. He was doing business. Although we were living the most aristocratic family, my father was middle class. In those days about five hundred rupees' income—it was not very much. But seventy years ago five hundred rupees means nowadays twenty times. Everything has gone up ten times, twenty times. We were purchasing at that time rice. My father had hobby: there must be full stock of rice, at least for six months. Rice and fuel and ghee and potato he would stock. So we had no difficulties. Everything was sumptuous, by father's plan. Yadubara: What about your, what about your family after you were married? Prabhupāda: I have got sons. They are still there in Calcutta. A sannyāsī does not require the history of his previous life. So summary I have already given. Yadubara: We wanted to include like this, some very brief history of your . . . that you were in some business, of your meeting with your Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: That is already explained in that *Īśopaniṣad* . Yadubara: Yes. Yes. So it is all right to include all these. Prabhupāda: 1922 I met my Guru Mahārāja and 1933 I was officially initiated. Then Guru Mahārāja passed away in 1936. And he asked me, fifteen days before his passing away that, "You preach in English language in the Western countries. That will be your good, and the person amongst whom you preach, they will be also benefited." This was his last instructions to me. Yadubara: That was fifteen days before . . . Prabhupāda: Fifteen days before his passing away. He passed away in 1936, December 30th, and that letter was written 13th December, 1936. Yadubara: Didn't he say something right away, after he met you personally? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He said that Caitanya . . . I argued with him so many times. At that time I was Congress man, non*-cooperated. I gave up my education. But I was appointed manager. I stopped my education 1920, and then '21 I was appointed manager in Bose's laboratory. Then 1923 I resigned that post. I was appointed their agent, Northern India. Then my business flourished like anything. I started my own laboratory in Lucknow, in Vārāṇasī, in Allahabad. So that was very successful business. Everyone knew me in the chemical business. Then in 1933 I was initiated. In this way, gradually I came in contact intimately. And Guru Mahārāja . . . in 1935, all my Godbrothers were meeting in Bombay. So I was living outside the maṭha . So they requested, "Abhay Babu is such a noble soul. Why he should live outside the maṭha ?" Purposely I was living outside. I had my business office. I was living with my four children; family was in Calcutta. So Guru Mahārāja said: "It is better to live a little outside, and he will do the necessity automatically in due course of time." He said like that. So I could not understand what he meant by that. But it means that he was confident that, "This boy in due course of time will take up this matter seriously." He said these very words, "In due course of time he will take things rightly. And it is better now to live little apart from . . ." (laughs) He said like that. Haṁsadūta: He had some premonition. *Prabhupāda: Then in 1936 he passed away, and he left his letter, "You do this." So I was thinking, "What shall I do?" Of course, I took up this missionary idea as soon as I saw him in 1922, because we were trained up to some extent by our family tradition. So one of my friend took me to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922. So at that time I could understand that "Here is a person who is actually doing the missionary activities of Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Because we were Vaiṣṇava family. My father was Vaiṣṇava, my grandfather was Vaiṣṇava, my . . . we were all worshiper of Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya by family tradition. So at that time I could understand that, "Here is a saintly person who is trying very nicely." So he asked me to join immediately. But at that time, I was family man. In 1921 my first child was born. I was married in 1918, during student time. I was at that time third*-year student. So I was thinking, "How to do? How to do?" So in 1944, I started this Back to Godhead . Haṁsadūta: From Allahabad? Prabhupāda: No, from Calcutta. Haṁsadūta: From Calcutta. Prabhupāda: So I was practically distributing. I was spending, in those days, 300 rupees, 400 rupees. Was a large amount, but I was spending somehow or other from my business, and practically it was being distributed. You have seen some of the copies? Haṁsadūta: I saw some of the old copies. Yes. Prabhupāda: So in this way, gradually things changed. I wanted to become a very big businessman and earn money and spend for this missionary work, but that was not very successful. (laughs) So in 1950, I retired practically. Not retired, but little in touch with business, whatever is going on, going on. Then 1954 I gave up connection with my family. I went to Jhansi. There I got a very big building. So I wanted to started the missionary activities under the name of The League of Devotees. Haṁsadūta: I saw your prospectus, an old prospectus. Prabhupāda: Yes, it was registered. So that was a very nice building. Somebody gave me. Then the governor of the province, that Munshi, K. Munshi, his wife had an association of the women; she wanted that house. So the governing . . . government circle, they began to press me to leave that house through the proprietor. So I was sticking. All my friends, they said that, "You don't go away. We shall help you." Then I thought that "They are government circles. They will . . . if they give pressure, how can I fight with them?" *And that was not a very nice place, Jhansi, although the building was first class. That building is still there. Then I thought that instead of fighting with them, let me go to Vṛndāvana, then we shall see. So I too went to Vṛndāvana. And then in 1956 . . . no, I left '54. In '56 I was living with my Godbrothers. Then I started again. In the meantime, for some years, two, three years, the Back to Godhead was stopped. Then I started again in Delhi. You have seen my Delhi Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple? Yadubara: I went to one place that you stayed at . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: . . . near . . . Prabhupāda: Jama Masjid. Yadubara: Something, yes. *Prabhupāda: So I was staying in Vṛndāvana in a very nice place. Then these Rādhā*-Damodara temple men, they call me that, "Why don't you come, live here? We give you two rooms. You just repair and live here. Whatever you like, you can do." So I thought, "It is Jīva Gosvāmī's place"; *otherwise living in a very big palace, Keśī Ghat, for seven years. Then I came to Rādhā*-Damodara temple. So I was writing Bhāgavatam , Back to Godhead , and printing in Delhi. In this way, when some books were prepared, then I came to America. Then after coming America, everything you know. (end) Conversation -- August 12, 1973, Paris *(Conversation with Yadubara About Early Life & Childhood Ratha*-yäträ Festival) *Prabhupāda: . . . of the same age of neighboring quarters, they will join. There will be feast, procession, saṅkīrtana , everything in miniature form. And my father will be spend. He will not hesitate. Yes. Therefore, my father's friends used to joke the "Ratha*-yātrā ceremony is going on at your home, and you do not invite us. What is this?" (laughs) Father would reply, "They are all children playing." "Oh, children playing. You are avoiding us by the name of children." It was regular procession. And for eight days there was feasting. Yadubara: That was at the same time as the big procession? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yadubara: That was the same time as the big procession? *Prabhupāda: Yes. During the Ratha*-yātrā festival. Eight days, eight different varieties of foodstuff my mother would cook and offer to Jagannātha. Daily bhoga-ārātrika , decoration with flowers. It was regular. Yadubara: What did the cart look like? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: What did the ratha cart look like? Just a miniature of the one at Purī? Prabhupāda: That I can give you diagram. I will give. Because I played with, I remember perfectly. Yadubara: What about . . . did the girls participate? Did the . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Yadubara: Small girls? Prabhupāda: Small girls, they participated, one or two. Yadubara: How many boys were there? Prabhupāda: All . . . not less than a dozen. And then public will gather. So it was regular procession. Not very big. Everyone knew that, "It is children; they are playing." Yadubara: Did they play at . . . Prabhupāda: The ratha, ratha I used to decorate myself, painting, with color. I will give you a diagram of the ratha . (Prabhupāda draws) (break) Covering. This is diagram. Yadubara: So this was . . . it is not solid inside, so that you could see through. Prabhupāda: No, there were many columns. Sixteen columns supporting. Śrutakīrti: Like the ratha cart here, with the columns? The wooden . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Here there is not column. Yadubara: This was horse? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wooden horse. Yadubara: This is driver. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: What kind of clothing did the boys wear, did you wear? Prabhupāda: No, no, ordinary. Yadubara: Just shorts? Prabhupāda: No, ordinary . . . yes, dhotī and shirt. Yadubara: Dhotī and shirt. Prabhupāda: Someone without any shirt, because it is summer season. So there was no particular dress. Yadubara: And were there instruments you were playing? Prabhupāda: Yes, on this khol, karatāla , then that chaazh . Where is our Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Devotee: I'll go and get him. Prabhupāda: And call also Haṁsadūta. Yadubara: When you did Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yadubara: When you did Deity worship as a child . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Yadubara: . . . how did you do? Prabhupāda: I would imitate the brahmiṇs and my father. Yadubara: With the lamp and the incense? *Prabhupāda: Everything, complete. I would perform ārātrika and offer prasādam . Rādhā*-Govinda Deities, there was altar decorated, small Deity, daily changing cloth. Everything. Offering obeisances. Everything. *Yadubara: When you . . . would the ratha ceremony go on in the court of Rādhā*-Govinda temple, in the courtyard? Prabhupāda: No, that was . . . they are separate. I was doing in my . . . but I was imitating how the worship is going on there. *Yadubara: Would the ratha cart . . . was that going on in the courtyard, Rādhā*-Govinda? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The first courtyard from the road. That circle? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Just inside. Prabhupāda: There inside there, and stay for some time, then again circling, go away. Our house was . . . you know that Mullik's house? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was also Mullik's house, our. Our number was 151, and in the middle there was 153, and their house is 155. Just moment. Have you written anything about that article? Pradyumna: Yes, I'm just finishing editing it. Prabhupāda: Alright. That's alright. Then you shall send it on. *Haṁsadūta: Ah*-huh. When he is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: So part of the movie, it calls for either some narration by yourself . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: Or It calls for some narration, either by yourself or by someone else. Prabhupāda: No. Someone else can narrate. Yadubara: We wanted to describe the Deity worship, why we are worshiping Deities, because people . . . *Prabhupāda: I was simply imitating because my father was worshiping, and we were always going that Mullik's Rādhā*-Govinda temple, their festival. We are practically same family. I was known as one of the children of Mullik's family. Others, other neighborhood men, they would know that I was belonging to their family. Because the house in which we are living, that belonged to the Mullik family, one partner. Yadubara: I saw that beautiful room, very aristocratic room, with chandelier and glass. Prabhupāda: They were . . . now they have reduced. Otherwise they were the most aristocratic family of Calcutta. Kashinath Mullik. There are roads and names, Kashinath Mullik name. We belonged to . . . the house where we were living, that was Kashinath Mullik's second brother. Second brother. So his wife was living, and she was a distant relative, grandmother, of me. So she had no children. So we were living. With some relative he (she) was living. Yadubara: So we wanted to explain to the in the movie to people in general how the Deity worship is authorized: how it's not worshiping just stone, how the Deity is actually Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's quality, they are all the same. That you know. You can explain. Yadubara: Also we wanted to give some, just some very brief explanation of your past: how you were attached to Kṛṣṇa from the very beginning of your life, how your friends offered you intoxication. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). It has come from previous life. Therefore I was given the opportunity to take birth in that family, Kṛṣṇa association. And my father was a great Vaiṣṇava. So śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ. Both things were confirmed. My father was śuci, and although I did not belong to that family, but I was born in that aristocratic family and I was raised amongst them. So that confirms: this Kṛṣṇa consciousness coming from previous life. And some very authorized astrologers said that in my previous life I was a physician, and I did not commit any sinful act. He said like that. The only, if it is taken as sinful, I killed some snakes for medicinal purpose. Otherwise I did not commit any sin. He said like that. (laughing) And it is right, because I had tendency in my childhood play to imitate the physician. I would keep some medicine, and my playmates would come, I would feel their pulse and give some medicine. (devotees laugh) This was my play, I remember. Yes. Some powders. Haṁsadūta: Pills? Prabhupāda: No, pills . . . (laughs) very small child at the time. So I would play that my playmates would come as patient, they would stand. I would give them some medicine. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: And still you are giving medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes, I was doing medicinal business. I was appointed Dr. Bose's laboratory manager. Haṁsadūta: But still you are giving medicine. You are giving Kṛṣṇa medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhavauṣadhi . I know to prepare so many medicines still. Practically all allopathic medicine I can prepare. Āyurvedic also, some of. What is that there written in the book, I can prepare. So that confirms my previous life also. Yadubara: We wanted to include some very brief notes on your family. You had some family life and business. Prabhupāda: Family, my father was a businessman. He was doing business. Although we were living the most aristocratic family, my father was middle class. In those days about five hundred rupees' income—it was not very much. But seventy years ago five hundred rupees means nowadays twenty times. Everything has gone up ten times, twenty times. We were purchasing at that time rice. My father had hobby: there must be full stock of rice, at least for six months. Rice and fuel and ghee and potato he would stock. So we had no difficulties. Everything was sumptuous, by father's plan. Yadubara: What about your, what about your family after you were married? Prabhupāda: I have got sons. They are still there in Calcutta. A sannyāsī does not require the history of his previous life. So summary I have already given. Yadubara: We wanted to include like this, some very brief history of your . . . that you were in some business, of your meeting with your Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: That is already explained in that *Īśopaniṣad* . Yadubara: Yes. Yes. So it is all right to include all these. Prabhupāda: 1922 I met my Guru Mahārāja and 1933 I was officially initiated. Then Guru Mahārāja passed away in 1936. And he asked me, fifteen days before his passing away that, "You preach in English language in the Western countries. That will be your good, and the person amongst whom you preach, they will be also benefited." This was his last instructions to me. Yadubara: That was fifteen days before . . . Prabhupāda: Fifteen days before his passing away. He passed away in 1936, December 30th, and that letter was written 13th December, 1936. Yadubara: Didn't he say something right away, after he met you personally? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He said that Caitanya . . . I argued with him so many times. At that time I was Congress man, non*-cooperated. I gave up my education. But I was appointed manager. I stopped my education 1920, and then '21 I was appointed manager in Bose's laboratory. Then 1923 I resigned that post. I was appointed their agent, Northern India. Then my business flourished like anything. I started my own laboratory in Lucknow, in Vārāṇasī, in Allahabad. So that was very successful business. Everyone knew me in the chemical business. Then in 1933 I was initiated. In this way, gradually I came in contact intimately. And Guru Mahārāja . . . in 1935, all my Godbrothers were meeting in Bombay. So I was living outside the maṭha . So they requested, "Abhay Babu is such a noble soul. Why he should live outside the maṭha ?" Purposely I was living outside. I had my business office. I was living with my four children; family was in Calcutta. So Guru Mahārāja said: "It is better to live a little outside, and he will do the necessity automatically in due course of time." He said like that. So I could not understand what he meant by that. But it means that he was confident that, "This boy in due course of time will take up this matter seriously." He said these very words, "In due course of time he will take things rightly. And it is better now to live little apart from . . ." (laughs) He said like that. Haṁsadūta: He had some premonition. *Prabhupāda: Then in 1936 he passed away, and he left his letter, "You do this." So I was thinking, "What shall I do?" Of course, I took up this missionary idea as soon as I saw him in 1922, because we were trained up to some extent by our family tradition. So one of my friend took me to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922. So at that time I could understand that "Here is a person who is actually doing the missionary activities of Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Because we were Vaiṣṇava family. My father was Vaiṣṇava, my grandfather was Vaiṣṇava, my . . . we were all worshiper of Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya by family tradition. So at that time I could understand that, "Here is a saintly person who is trying very nicely." So he asked me to join immediately. But at that time, I was family man. In 1921 my first child was born. I was married in 1918, during student time. I was at that time third*-year student. So I was thinking, "How to do? How to do?" So in 1944, I started this Back to Godhead . Haṁsadūta: From Allahabad? Prabhupāda: No, from Calcutta. Haṁsadūta: From Calcutta. Prabhupāda: So I was practically distributing. I was spending, in those days, 300 rupees, 400 rupees. Was a large amount, but I was spending somehow or other from my business, and practically it was being distributed. You have seen some of the copies? Haṁsadūta: I saw some of the old copies. Yes. Prabhupāda: So in this way, gradually things changed. I wanted to become a very big businessman and earn money and spend for this missionary work, but that was not very successful. (laughs) So in 1950, I retired practically. Not retired, but little in touch with business, whatever is going on, going on. Then 1954 I gave up connection with my family. I went to Jhansi. There I got a very big building. So I wanted to started the missionary activities under the name of The League of Devotees. Haṁsadūta: I saw your prospectus, an old prospectus. Prabhupāda: Yes, it was registered. So that was a very nice building. Somebody gave me. Then the governor of the province, that Munshi, K. Munshi, his wife had an association of the women; she wanted that house. So the governing . . . government circle, they began to press me to leave that house through the proprietor. So I was sticking. All my friends, they said that, "You don't go away. We shall help you." Then I thought that "They are government circles. They will . . . if they give pressure, how can I fight with them?" *And that was not a very nice place, Jhansi, although the building was first class. That building is still there. Then I thought that instead of fighting with them, let me go to Vṛndāvana, then we shall see. So I too went to Vṛndāvana. And then in 1956 . . . no, I left '54. In '56 I was living with my Godbrothers. Then I started again. In the meantime, for some years, two, three years, the Back to Godhead was stopped. Then I started again in Delhi. You have seen my Delhi Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple? Yadubara: I went to one place that you stayed at . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: . . . near . . . Prabhupāda: Jama Masjid. Yadubara: Something, yes. *Prabhupāda: So I was staying in Vṛndāvana in a very nice place. Then these Rādhā*-Damodara temple men, they call me that, "Why don't you come, live here? We give you two rooms. You just repair and live here. Whatever you like, you can do." So I thought, "It is Jīva Gosvāmī's place"; *otherwise living in a very big palace, Keśī Ghat, for seven years. Then I came to Rādhā*-Damodara temple. So I was writing Bhāgavatam , Back to Godhead , and printing in Delhi. In this way, when some books were prepared, then I came to America. Then after coming America, everything you know. (end) Room Conversation with Rosicrucians -- August 13, 1973, Paris Yogeśvara: ...Mr. Belfiore and his wife Mrs. Belfiore. Mr. Belfiore is the inspector general for the French area, Paris area, for the Rosicrucian movement, the Rosicrucian order. Prabhupāda: What is that Rosicrucian? Yogeśvara: It is a very big religious movement all around the world. (Yogeśvara speaks in French with Mr. Belfiore and then translates for Śrīla Prabhupāda throughout) He says our movement is very well known in the United States. Have you never come across our society? Prabhupāda: What is the aim of this movement? Yogeśvara: The evolution of man. Prabhupāda: Evolution of man. So man is going to evolve more? What is that ultimate evolution? Yogeśvara: To a reintegration of man with the cosmos or cosmic consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Cosmic consciousness. We also believe individual consciousness and cosmic consciousness. We are now studying this subject matter in our class. Kṣetra*-kṣetra-jña. So kṣetra-jña, the knower... The individual soul is also knower, conscious, and the Supersoul, God, is also conscious. So we also admit, universal consciousness, that is God's consciousness. [break]... consciousness is limited. Yogeśvara: [break] ...is studying the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the evolution, when our consciousness is in agreement with the supreme consciousness. [break] That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yogeśvara: He says that the Rosicrucian order is a mystical and philosophical order that allows its students... Prabhupāda: Who is Rosin? He is a philosopher? Yogeśvara: He says that the term Rosicrucian means, it's an image of a cross with a rose in the center. It means that the disciple is aspiring towards the perfection of his consciousness and that this also means the perfection of consciousness. Prabhupāda: So what is the ideal of that perfection of consciousness? Yogeśvara: He says it is love. Prabhupāda: Love, that's nice. Very good. So the supreme consciousness and our individual consciousness, when they are in exchange of love, that is perfection. Is that...? Yogeśvara: [break] ...that this ultimate consciousness is one of union with the Absolute, that it is one of light, of samādhi, of total love. This is the highest. Prabhupāda: So love, love. When we speak of love, there must be two persons. (Yogeśvara translates) So what is their philosophy? Yogeśvara: The love of which they are speaking is a love that binds everything together, that bathes everything in light and love. Prabhupāda: So there is no action? No action? Yogeśvara: No, he says there is action. Prabhupāda: What are those activities? Yogeśvara: Giving. Prabhupāda: Giving and taking also. [break] Yogeśvara: ...there is giving. There is also taking. But it's not... The person who has achieved this ultimate perfection, whenever he takes, he immediately gives it to someone else. Prabhupāda: That's all right. The transaction between two lovers, one gives, another takes. Sometimes one gives, another takes, another gives, and one takes. This is exchange. Similarly, feeding. I give something to my beloved to eat something. He also gives me something. I eat also. Similarly, I disclose my confidence unto my beloved. My beloved also discloses her or his confidence. These are loving exchanges. Yogeśvara: He says that he understands that we are talking of love meaning two people, but does that mean that... Why can't we think of love in terms of an exchange between man and everything, between man and the cosmos? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Cosmos represents, as he says, consciousness. That is the person, consciousness. Just like if I love a tree, I love the leaves and twigs also. If I pour water on the root of the tree, it goes to the leaves, twigs, branches, automatically. So if we love the supreme consciousness, Supreme Person, who has got universal consciousness, then automatically my service goes to everywhere. Yogeśvara: This is also what their philosophy is, he says. Prabhupāda: So you cannot love everyone and anyone or everything without finding out the original source of everything. Yogeśvara: The Rosicrucian order is a school that teaches its students to progress step by step towards that ultimate source of all sources. Prabhupāda: So what is that step? What is that step? Yogeśvara: He says it's a gradual progress, that their students come, they receive initiation and then they are guided. They are given certain principles, certain practices, and then gradually, at their own rate, by their own powers, they ultimately arrive at perfection. Prabhupāda: So what is that ideal of perfection? Yogeśvara: That it is nirvāṇa, it is the kingdom of Lord Jesus Christ. He says it is the ultimate point for which all men are ultimately striving. Prabhupāda: So what is that? Nirvāṇa means zero. Everyone is trying for the zero? Yogeśvara: [break] Nirvāṇa means something different for them? Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: [break] He says it is an entering into something that is alive and real. Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa, this word is Sanskrit word. Nirvāṇa means finish. [break] Yogeśvara: For them the word nirvāṇa means an end but an end to this material existence and an entrance into the silence of the Absolute, onto a level that is real, whereas this one is false. This one is rejected. Prabhupāda: Why silence? Yogeśvara: He says the term "entering into silence" is a mystic term that means... Prabhupāda: He cannot explain. [break] Yogeśvara: ...it is undescribable because it's something that's arrived at inside through meditation. You can't really describe it in words? Prabhupāda: Why? You are describing so many thing in words and the ultimate goal you cannot describe. Yogeśvara: He says that many great masters like you from the East tend to smile at their explanations, but he... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They tend to smile when this question is asked, "Who am I?" So what can I say compared to these masters? Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: His knowledge is not perfect, and like us, he is simply trying for perfect knowledge. Prabhupāda: So unless you have got your goal perfectly known, how you can make progress? [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...their organization is the guru, and their whole organization knows the ultimate goal which they can attain. Prabhupāda: And he is part of that organization. He does not know. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He says that evolution of man which is the goal of this order is something that is mystical. It is not scientific, that it is so easily... Prabhupāda: That means it is pale. It is not distinct. Yogeśvara: He says he is surprised that we raise such objections. He thought that we were also searching for something mystical. He says he's heard our chanting. Prabhupāda: Who, who? Who? Yogeśvara: He said he thought we were also searching. Prabhupāda: No, no, we have got definite goal, Kṛṣṇa... We have got definite goal, Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...*Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*. He has got His form, He has got His place, He has got His name, He has got His pastimes, and we want to enter in that kingdom. Yogeśvara: He says that he thought that in our movement we were following Ramakrishna who had discovered everything. Prabhupāda: No, no. Ramakrishna we kick out. We don't. Yogeśvara: He says he's not familiar personally with him. Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna is bogus. Yogeśvara: He says that this is not a new order, this Rosicrucian order. It goes back at least as far as Ancient Egypt. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is the aim of your this progress. Yogeśvara: He says all he can is repeat to you his answer previously, which is that (it) is to reach the perfection of consciousness at which point man is in communion, in unity with the beyond. He calls it the cela (French), "the inexplicable." Prabhupāda: But he cannot express what is that beyond. But he cannot describe what is God. That is imperfect knowledge. Yogeśvara: He says that communion with God is something that is subjective; it's something you experience, not that you describe. Prabhupāda: That is not perfect. Yogeśvara: He says that according to every individual's place of birth, his age, his upbringing, he will experience this communion with God differently. Prabhupāda: No. God is God. If the experience will have to be taken from God, then it will be equally most possibility for everyone. Yogeśvara: He says what they are looking for in the Rosicrucian order is the ultimate realization when all these other relative communions with God will disappear and there will be one common realization, experience of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But if you cannot describe what is that ultimate goal, then how others can be attracted? [break] Yogeśvara: ...but in their society they have many different religions, many different groups, and they don't ask anyone to leave being Christian or Jew or Muslim or Hindu or anything like that. Prabhupāda: So we are not asking in that way. We are asking, "What is that ultimate goal?" [break] Yogeśvara: ...ultimately, by following a process that the Rosicrucian order gives its students, one reaches the goal. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Suppose if I am going to London. So unless I am interested to go to London, what is the use of knowing how to go to London? Yogeśvara: Their students feel the need for this ultimate perfection and that's why they come to the movement. Prabhupāda: But if he does not know what is ultimate perfection, this is bogus. Yogeśvara: [break] ...realization of God. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Just like if I say that "If you do like this, you can make one million dollars." But you know what is the value of one millions dollars; then you endeavor. But if we don't know what is that one million dollars, why should we endeavor? Yogeśvara: No, he said, all of their students, they know the value of realizing God in their heart. Prabhupāda: How do they know? How do they know? Yogeśvara: There are already people who are aspiring after a richer, more spiritual life. Prabhupāda: What is that spiritual life? [break] Yogeśvara: ...high spiritual values, the things... Prabhupāda: These are simply words. What is the spiritual life. I want to know. [break] ...is useless. Yogeśvara: He says when God. He is just using a lot of names. Prabhupāda: He is simply speaking. He does not know what is the aim, what is the goal, what is spiritual life... [break] ...no tangible knowledge of everything, what I ask. As I asked you what is spiritual life, he cannot describe. [break] ...distinguish between spiritual life and material life? Yogeśvara: [break]... as we can have spiritual realization and still live in the material world. Prabhupāda: But what is the spiritual life? What is the distinction between spiritual life and material life? What is the goal? He cannot define Spiritual life. Yogeśvara: [break]...want to know how does a person who is realized the perfection live. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Yogeśvara: ...tolerant. Above all, he is tolerant. Prabhupāda: Tolerant. Spiritual life. That is also spiritual life. That's all. So in their way of spiritual life, what are the process? There must be some process, definite process. Yogeśvara: [break] ...that comes when you become initiated in the movement. They give you the process for arriving at this tolerance. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But suppose I want to enter. So you must give me some formula that "You have to do this like this." Otherwise how can I enter? Yogeśvara: He says there are many different techniques, but ultimately they are really all the same because they lead to the same conclusion. [break] Prabhupāda: ...those techniques? Let him say some of the techniques. Yogeśvara: He says the first thing is that we have to awaken our internal consciousness which is ninety percent asleep. Prabhupāda: So what is the process? Yogeśvara: I don't care to talk about them here. Prabhupāda: Then how can I accept it? I cannot enter into some vague thing. Yogeśvara: All the systems have to do with meditation, concentration, things that will reawaken your consciousness. Prabhupāda: What is the object of meditation? Yogeśvara: [break] ...different objects, many different. Prabhupāda: But tell one of them. Yogeśvara: The body for example. [break] He says that there is "the eternal meditation number three." Prabhupāda: So what is the number one? Yogeśvara: He says that this one is one that's basic. It is given to all their students. Prabhupāda: Number three, and no number one. [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...wants to say that you will meditate on the number three and this was that you would wake up the consciousness in your body starting from the tips of your toes and working up like this. And it may seem easy to you, but all the great masters of the Orient have taught this and no one can succeed without doing this. Prabhupāda: That means their knowledge is not perfect. It is all bogus. [break] ...if you meditate on the body what do you gain? Yogeśvara: To wake up your psychic consciousness which is sleeping inside this body. Prabhupāda: But you tell me, what is that process? Yogeśvara: Well, "meditation number three" is to... [break] He says he would like to talk to you a little bit about a book he is reading which describes how the Russians have just discovered the soul. They have photographed the soul, he says,... French guest devotee: No, no, the aura. *Yogeśvara: ...how they have, the Russians have found the soul and they have described all the different phenomena of para*-psychology and extra sensory perception, and he said it's an incredible book, and the Russians have made great discoveries. He hasn't finished the book yet. Prabhupāda: That is Russians. I am asking him about his... Yogeśvara: He says that the Rosicrucians they know what is the duty of human life. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: The destiny of human life. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: : ...the soul is a state, of crystik consciousness, Nirvāṇa, call it what you will. Prabhupāda: That cannot be described. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...with an understanding that is a million times beyond our understanding. Prabhupāda: If it is beyond understanding, how can I accept it? [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...understanding, and it is translated onto the objective level. Prabhupāda: If I do not understand whom to love, how can I learn? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: It is in the heart of everyone. Simply it is a question of repressing the false ego for, eliminating the old man, the false ego. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: I'm not quite sure. He says that he doesn't understand why you are objecting. He says love is a part of everyone. Prabhupāda: Because if you ask me to love, I want to know what is, whom I shall love. Yogeśvara: A mystic, he loves everything, everyone. Prabhupāda: Is there any example? Yogeśvara: An example is the master of their movement. He was supposed to come, but he was on vacation. But the grand master of their movement, he says, is one example. Prabhupāda: No, suppose to love everyone, that means you love the animals also. Their community allows, animal killing? Yogeśvara: When you come into the movement, there are no regulations required of you. But little by little, it comes to that point. Their experience is that they give their students in the movement... For a short period of time, they are required to give up intoxication and meat and things like that. But it's not permanent. Prabhupāda: And then they can take. Yogeśvara: Yes, afterwards. Prabhupāda: So why in the beginning stop? Why in the beginning they are requested to give it up? [break] Yogeśvara: Rosicrucian order doesn't force anything, doesn't make you do anything. [break] ...people that join this organization, only seven succeed. Prabhupāda: Then it cannot be preached among the mass of people. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Some people, when they just can't make it anymore, they just (indistinct) flip out. (?) Yogeśvara: He says all movements experience the same thing. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: That out of one hundred people... Prabhupāda: One hundred people..., but the ideal must be there. One may follow or not follow. Yogeśvara: Their order doesn't reject anyone. Prabhupāda: I think... Whether their order approves animal killing? Yogeśvara: There are no restrictions. The order doesn't require. Prabhupāda: Then let us stop here. No more questions. Waste time. Yogeśvara: He doesn't like the idea of killing animals, and he has advised that to friends. Prabhupāda: But what is the ideal of the order? That I am asking. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Love between men, understanding. Prabhupāda: What the animals have done? No brotherhood is there. Yogeśvara: He says he loves the animals. He has many animals living with him. He is surrounded by animals, he says. Prabhupāda: That is nice. [break]... a person who is habituated to kill animals, so will he be admitted in the order? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He doesn't think that someone who kills animals would like to enter, but if a butcher wants to enter, that's okay, and gradually they'll elevate him. [break] Prabhupāda: ...on principle the order does not allow animal killing, is it? Yogeśvara: They would rather not see anyone killed. Ideally, on an ideal level, their movement would not want to see animals killed, anyone killed. Prabhupāda: Therefore I want to know what are the principles, rules and regulation of the order. Yogeśvara: Their principles are love, beauty, harmony, peace. [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He says there are no rules, but as you progress, one initiation after another initiation, if you start out as a butcher, then gradually in your own self, you will wish to give it up. But there are no rules. [break] Prabhupāda: ...one initiation after one initiation, there is no progressive rules? *Yogeśvara: [break] ...that are steps, but the order itself doesn't require that you give up meat*-eating at any point. He says he thinks that the people themselves would probably give it up in the higher stages. He says that their order has a very smart way of doing things, that if they were to try and tell people, "Don't do this, don't do this, don't do that," right away, nobody would join them. So they don't say that. [break] They fall away gradually by themselves. [break] ...quotes a passage from St. Paul who said if you go and visit someone who is a meat-eater, don't trouble him. Accept meat with him. The real mystic is someone who has controlled his body. Prabhupāda: That he cannot explain, how to control the body. [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...it happens right away, it will happen in awhile. Prabhupāda: At least, I cannot accept this. [break] ...if there is definite program. [break] The thing is that if I want to enter your association, you must give me some prescription which if I follow, I'll make progress. So that is another thing. But you have no prescription. [break] Yogeśvara: : ...submit to his grandmaster your request for a specific prescription to be given to you. He'll send in your application. Prabhupāda: He hasn't got. [break] Yogeśvara: ...make one special just for you. Prabhupāda: But not for general people. [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...is that Yogeśvara explained the four principles to this man, so the man said, "Yes, very good. Sometime we can get to that too, but it is something that on our own we accept personally. Just like you yourself, Your Divine Grace, you have come to this by accepting it yourself." *Yogeśvara: In other words, "These are nice principles that you are following and we are sure that you have come to these conclusions on your own, just like maybe one day we will come to those conclusions on our own also." They are something that is self*-initiated, these regulative principles. Prabhupāda: So for the time being there is no such rules and regulations? In their order. [break] Yogeśvara: ...makes certain suggestions, but it doesn't oblige anyone to follow their suggestions. Prabhupāda: What is that suggestion? Yogeśvara: The movement suggests that people live a life as perhaps yours is, of purity, and pure thoughts and moral living and even following certain principles of... Prabhupāda: But these things are there, but they don't say. Suppose a man is killing animals. They don't prohibit him. Then that is immoral life, but if they don't prohibit him, then how he can become moral? [break] ...killing of animals and morality will go together? Yogeśvara: It's an order that likes very much the ideals of beauty and harmony and morality, but they can't see imposing on anyone these things. I guess their idea is that you can't impose beauty and morality on anyone. You can't insist that anyone stop killing. You can't tell anyone forcibly not to do this or not to do that, that these are things that you have to realize. Prabhupāda: But is there such rules and regulation or injunction from the society that "You do not kill." Just like Bible there is, "You shall not kill." So they have no such thing. Yogeśvara: He says Jesus ate meat and furthermore there is a sect in the Orient that wears gauze over their mouth so as not to kill microbes while they breathe. But we are killing those microbes. We have killed these flowers. Prabhupāda: So they are to satisfy everyone. Yogeśvara: Don't you think we are killing other living beings? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. [break] Yogeśvara: ...study everything. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They haven't got their own anything. Simply they are studying. Yogeśvara: Realization is what counts. Prabhupāda: So that he cannot explain, what is the realization. If you cannot describe, then what is the realization? *Yogeśvara: He says he is only forty*-nine years old. He can't describe it for you. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He knows the Rosicrucian order is good because everything he has attained in his life, he owes to the order. So he knows it is good by what he has attained. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But I think for mass of people, unless they have got some ideal, how they can join? That is my point. Yogeśvara: [break] ...devotees think, think, "Who am I? Where do I come from? Where am I going?" Prabhupāda: That is nice. [break] ...realize what he is. Yogeśvara: If he had not realized something, he would never have come tonight. Prabhupāda: No. Then therefore he can describe what he is. Yogeśvara: He says when Moses saw the burning bush and he asked the fire, "Who are you?" The fire said, "I am what I am." "Who I am?" that's a question that you are going to have to answer by your own meditations. Prabhupāda: But what is his meditation? What he has learned? Yogeśvara: The thing to realize, which he has realized a little bit, is peace. And when you join up, you get a letter back, and at the bottom of the letter it says "With our best wishes for your peace and happiness." Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Everyone wants that. But what is the process? Yogeśvara: ...by praying, courage, by faith. A serious movement, a serious order would never guarantee instantaneous illumination. Prabhupāda: No, that also we say. But we must have the program. Just like he say that "Who am I?" So at least one must know who he is. If this vague reply is "I am what I am..." If I ask you, "you come," so "Who are you, sir?" then if he says, "I am what I am," is that the proper answer? (laughter) This is nonsense answer. If I ask you, "Who are you?" If he says, "I am what I am," is that the proper answer? Yogeśvara: He would tell you his name, Mr. Belfiore. [break] *Guru*-gaurāṅga: ...that forms his identity is Maurice Belfiore, but the interior, that reality, is different. [break] If we all join up here now in silence and we enter into ourselves and create one person, then we will know who we are from that silence. Prabhupāda: But how it is possible to become silent? Yogeśvara: ...many, many births and deaths. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That's all right. Now talk [break] Yogeśvara: ...privilege for him to be here amongst us. Prabhupāda: Thank him. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Thank you very much and he is going to tell the grandmaster about you. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in San Jose, California, their grand emperor of the movement has his, their headquarters. And he said one day perhaps there would be the opportunity... Prabhupāda: No, we have got our temple. (end) Discussion about Guru Maharaji -- August 13, 1973, Paris Prabhupāda: Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So what is the evidence that he is God? Anyone can say, "I am God." Then, anyone will be accepted as God? Haṁsadūta: Well, I think they take it just on the strength of this, whatever it is, experiences that they have. When they become initiated, they get some kind of experience. So... Prabhupāda: What is that experience? Haṁsadūta: They say they see some light and... *Prabhupāda: Light*-seeing, he becomes God? Haṁsadūta: Well, people are so... That's the... Devotee: Propaganda. *Prabhupāda: Then you have to make propaganda against that, that simply pushing two eyes... Anyone can push two eyes and there is natural some light. Is that the proof that he has become God? You are so foolish? And you say that God is, God has created the universe. So what he has created? What he has done, wonderful thing? That simply by pushing your eyes, you see some light, and you become God? You have become so foolish, European brain? You have no intelligence. Preach against him. What is the proof that he is God? Now, those who do not know anything about God, they can be convinced. Just like*-what is called?-agnostic. The agnostic... Sometimes we say that there is a creator because everything, just we say, everything, whatever we have got in our experience, it is created. So this gigantic universe or one or many, there must be one creator. This is one hypothesis. So that creator, if I accept this man, whether he can create something, such wonderful? Has he done so? In this way, you have to make propaganda. So far our position is, we accept God, Kṛṣṇa, on the authority, as well as by the action, both. We, we make hypothesis that there must be a creator. Vedānta says: "Yes, there is a creator." And Kṛṣṇa says, He says: "I am the creator of everything." And when He was at, on this planet, He did so many wonderful things. And He is accepted by big, big stalwarts. Just like Arjuna accepts. He heard Bhagavad-gītā. So before that, Nārada accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Great... Later on, big, big ācāryas accept. So these are the proof. But what proof he can give that he's God, that we shall accept him God? Simply he shows some light. We have to make some propaganda. That will be our (indistinct). And he has to be... If we remain silent, then whatever he says, that means we are accepting. So we should not allow this man to grow popularity. We must make propaganda wherever meeting is there. I can kick on the face of this (indistinct). I can urine on the face of... What can he do. Let them. Let him come. If he's God, then let him kill me by his power. When I go to kick on his face, let him stop me, then I shall accept that he's God. So why don't you do that? He's saying God. You just kick on his face, if he can do something... In this way, make some counter-propaganda. If we allow him to go on, then so many people falsely being misled. Śrutakīrti: Someone showed me a small article in the newspaper the other day in London. At one of his meetings, he was speaking and someone walked up to him like he was going to hand him a bouquet of flowers, and instead he threw a pie in his face. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: He threw a pie in his face. He appeared like he was going to give him something. But he put a pie in his face. Prabhupāda: Pie? Haṁsadūta: A pie is a cake. Śrutakīrti: A cake. Haṁsadūta: A apple cake... Śrutakīrti: Pastry, pushed it in his face. Prabhupāda: Therefore, he became God? Śrutakīrti: No! Therefore, I don't think he's very widely accepted as God. *Prabhupāda: No. That's all right. But whatever propaganda, little, he has made, we must make some counter*-propaganda. We must prove him... Simply pushing eyes, pushing eyes. And anyone can push one's eyes and there is some light within... That is called retina light or... What is called? And he has become God. At least, we, we should not allow the people to be in darkness and accept him as God. We have got our meeting. We shall say: That he is a rascal. Call him by all ill names. A cheater. He does not believe in the authoritative scriptures. And he has become God? What he has done? How you have become so foolish? God has created the universe, what he has created? A cake, creating, He's God? Haṁsadūta: Ummh? Prabhupāda: He has created one cake? Śrutakīrti: No, no. No. Haṁsadūta: No, you misunderstood the point. Śrutakīrti: One person walked up to him and he threw a pie in his face. As an insult, as insulting him. Prabhupāda: Oh. The man insulted him. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he should be insulted everywhere. Our men should go and do that, pie. (laughter) And when you have to (indistinct) He's God. Why can't you protect. He should have been killed. We have no such power. Otherwise, I would have obliged to kill him. Anyone says God, he should be killed. That is the example given by Kṛṣṇa. He should be killed. No other remedy. Only kill him. That's all. Then this false propaganda will stop. Just like the Christians said: Jesus Christ, God. And how God can be killed by crucification? We do not discuss this point, but actually this is the fact. He was empowered man, that we can understand. But we cannot accept him God. In our history, God is never killed. God kills others. That we have got evidence. And ordinary men, they took him, and crucified, and nobody, other, of the opposite party was killed. So that makes a little difference. So far son of God, that we accept. Everyone is son of God. We accept him śaktyāveśa avatāra, a living entity especially powered from God. That we can accept. So son of God we can accept. That is another thing. And where is the evidence in the śāstras that God was killed? Big, big giant, God fought them and killed them. Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa. Very, very great giant and demon. God was never killed by them. Is it not? Yes. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that: "What is this material power. My father was so materially strong. Even demigods and Indra, Candra, they were afraid. And He killed him within a moment. So what is the use of this material power?" And the God could not kill these crucifiers? As soon as they attempted to kill, there would have, He has, would have fought. He had to show some power. And they say that he agreed to take all our sin, and he crucified. Is it not? They say? Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is the idea. *Prabhupāda: So God could not... Kṛṣṇa says: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo... [Bg. 18.66]. That God can, without dying Himself, He can immediately and, I mean to say, vanquish all sinful action. Why He should be killed for that purpose? Just like the Pūtanā gave Kṛṣṇa poison. But Pūtanā was killed. And Kṛṣṇa was never ki... Kṛṣṇa cannot be killed by poison. Even Kṛṣṇa's devotees are not killed by poison. Prahlāda Mahārāja. If we discuss in detail, we create animosities. Therefore we do not discuss because Christian religion is followed by large number. We do not wish to make... We say yes. He says: "Son of God." We accept it. That's all. To accept a person God, that requires great evidences from śāstra. Especially. And when he's present, He will prove the statement of the śāstra. Then we accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu, God. There are evidences... [break] You see. We don't allow anybody to pass on as God because we are presenting real God. We must make process. The real process is to kill him. But that much power we haven't got. We cannot do that. Otherwise, we would have done so. Nobody should be allowed to claim as God. And severe punishment for him. Kṛṣṇa has shown this example. [break] We explain two, three lines from Bhāgavatam. How much people appreciated. So we have to preach like that, the substance. Not the sentiment. But if we cannot, the saṅkīrtana is sufficient. [break] ...anumāna-pramāṇa. Anumāna, hypothesy, and pramāṇa, śāstra-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa. evidences from the Vedas. Evidences from authorized persons. And anumāna also. That is not good evidence. But even if you take anumāna, that if I make... This table is created by somebody. It is all right. But to find out that somebody is still further progress. Similarly, we have to accept that this gigantic universe... As I say that what is the purpose? If there is purpose, whose purpose? Who is acting? In this way, we have to make progress. We are passing on, on the street. If I say: "Here is a big building. So someone is proprietor." This is one guess. But to know the proprietor, how he has constructed it, that is another thing. But if somebody says: "I am the proprietor." And we accept immediately? Similarly if someone says: "I am God." There is no need of evidence. "I am God." The people have to accept like that? There is no need of śāstra. How much degraded people have become that without any little evidence, they're accepting a rascal as God. How much degraded they have become. That is another thing. Because he has shown, by pushing the eyes, a light. That's all... We have to see that how much degraded the persons are. They have no even brain. What are the evidence, that he showed some light, and what else? Haṁsadūta: Some music. Prabhupāda: Some music. Haṁsadūta: They hear some music. *Prabhupāda: Just see. That is the evidence of God. Where is in the śāstra that by pushing eyes, Kṛṣṇa showed some light, and somebody...? He never did with Arjuna like that. He showed His gigantic universal form. But He never showed some light. So what is this nonsense? So we must make some propa..., counter*-propaganda. Because you spoke several things about him, but you did not make any counter-propaganda upon him. You have studied him, but you have never made any counter-propaganda. Haṁsadūta: Well we have, whenever they come, whenever we meet them. *Prabhupāda: No, whenever you are meeting, "this rascal is going on as God. This is mistaken. What profit...?" You have to speak there. What proof is there? So consult with Bhagavān dāsa and begin this propaganda. I have no time... Therefore, I say: "I do not know this man. That's all right." To avoid. But in a meeting, and you are going saṅkīrtana. People are coming, talking with you. So you make some propaganda, counter*-propaganda. Although, practically, he'll be finished, there is no doubt. Two, three years. The Maharishi Mahesh yogi, also became very... Nobody cares for him now. (end) Room Conversation with French Nun -- August 13, 1973, Paris Yogeśvara: She's asking... This is a French nun, and she wishes to know whether for us Christ is the son of God or is He God Himself or what is the identity of Lord Jesus Christ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesus Christ says that he's son of God. That's all right. We accept. Yogeśvara: (translates French throughout) [break] Prabhupāda: ...ordinary son. And he's powerful son. Yogeśvara: ...question. She asks what is the difference between our understanding of reincarnation and the Christian concept of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ said he would come again. Is there a difference? Is it the same thing? Prabhupāda: I don't find anything. Yogeśvara: There was this gentleman this afternoon who was asking you about people who are constantly, constantly being tested by all kinds of miserable circumstances. She asks: Is it not a sign of a soul that God has chosen to favor that he sends them such miserable conditions of material life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee, in miserable condition, they accept it as a favor of God. [break] ...in the Bhāgavata: Yogeśvara: She, she asks you for an explanation of an event that happened to her sister. Her sister died at the age of five and a half years. And just before her death she apparently was able to explain some of her past lifetimes to her mother, that she had formerly been a princess or of noble birth and that now she was being called. Is there some explanation for that? *Prabhupāda: Yes, she remembers of her last birth. That is quite possible. Because we are changing body. So one who can remember about his past life, they are called jāta*-smaraṇa. *Yogeśvara: Jāta*-smaraṇa? Prabhupāda: One who can remember about his past life. [break] ...means forgetting everything of the past life. [break] ...times a person remembers. Yogeśvara: She asks for a definition of the word "occult." What is something that is occult, something occult or mystic? What is it? Prabhupāda: Mystic? Yogeśvara: Mystic. What is mysticism? Prabhupāda: I do not say anything on mysticism. Mystic, something. It is called rahasya. Yogeśvara: Rahasya? Prabhupāda: Rahasya. Something wonderful. Is that meaning? Mystic *Indian Man: Mystic... I mean. I think when Western historians and literators explain Indian religious literature, especially literature of bhakti*-mārga, they term that those are the mystics and also they term the Sufi poets are mystics. [break] Prabhupāda: ...say mystic means rahasya. Yogeśvara: Rahasya. *Prabhupāda: Rahasya means it is little difficult to understand. [break] Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā: rahasyam, rahasyam etad uttamam. Rahasyam etad uttamam. This Bhagavad-gītā is the first-class mystic. Rahasyam etad uttamaṁ bhakto 'si me priyo 'si me [Bg. 4.3]. "Because you are My devotee, you are My dear friend, you'll understand." So mysticism is not understandable by common man. It requires a special qualification. Just like to understand. It is also mysticism. Understand, to understand God. This is also mystic. It is not understandable by ordinary man. (end) Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris Yogeśvara: ...Sanskrit at the University of, at the Sorbonne University here in Paris. Professor: No, in fact, in the University of Marseilles. Yogeśvara: Marseilles? Professor: In the southern part of France. Yes. Prabhupāda: So you can show our books, how Sanskrit we have written. Professor: What? Yogeśvara: He says we can show you our books. These are some of the publications of our society. Prabhupāda: Set all the books. Let him read the Sanskrit portion. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: This is Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā. Professor: That's the translation of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Each word. Just see how we have translated. You are Sanskrit scholar. Professor: This is the first volume. Are you preparing more of them? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are preparing sixty. Professor: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes. Professor: Oh, that's wonderful. Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes. *Professor: That's a good thing. You know that the first translation of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in any European language was in French in the beginning of the Nineteenth Century by a French scholar called Brenelouf. Yes, it was wonderful translation. But just a plain translation, without commentary. I am sure that your book is more valuable... Prabhupāda: So you can see my mode of translation. Professor: Yes, because... Prabhupāda: You can see. You open anywhere. Yes. Professor: Yes, and you have also a commentary. Prabhupāda: Commentary, yes. Professor: ...of your own, which is most formidable. Prabhupāda: Not my own,... Professor: No? *Prabhupāda: ...but through the disciplic succession. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. In that way. Professor: From Caitanya. *Prabhupāda: From Śrī Kṛṣṇa. You can open the Fourth, Fourth Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā. Professor: Yes. *Yogeśvara: This is our Bhagavad*-gītā, published by MacMillan Company. Prabhupāda: You open the Fourth Chapter. Professor: Do you think that your mission is successful? Prabhupāda: That is to be judged by you. Professor: Oh! That's interesting. Yogeśvara: This is the verse here? Professor: Yeah, Yes this is the verse. People told me that you have some two or three thousand disciples in the Western world? Prabhupāda: Two...? Yogeśvara: Two or three thousand disciples. Prabhupāda: More than that. Professor: More than that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: And what about France? Is it... Prabhupāda: That I do not know. They know. Professor: They know, yes, better than you. Prabhupāda: They bring the disciples. I simply initiate. That's all. Professor: Have you been many times in France or not? Prabhupāda: This is the third time. Professor: The third time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly I was going there... What is that place name? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Fontenay aux Rose. Professor: Fontenay aux Rose. I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. In a sewer. So I had got very poor idea of Paris. Professor: Really? Why? Prabhupāda: Because in the sewer, I could not see such nice things. Professor: Here, it's a wonderful location. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Here it is wonderful. Now I can make an idea, what is Paris. Yes. Professor: Surely. Prabhupāda: I was under impression in Paris there is no nice park. Now this time I see, yes, Paris excels the whole world, having such a nice park. Yes. I saw Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. That is also very nice. But this park is nicer than Golden Gate Park. Professor: You think so. The Bois de Bologne? is much better than the Golden Gate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: Well it depends. I like the Golden Gate too because there is the sea not far. Here, in Paris, you have no ocean, nothing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: Only a small river. That is not the... Prabhupāda: And on the whole, Paris city is very nice. Very nice. Opulent city. Professor: And they told me also that this morning you had some brahminical initiation to the... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Professor: ...Gāyatrī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: How many people? Prabhupāda: About fifteen. Professor: That's good. That's good. Prabhupāda: No, they... Haṁsadūta: Seven brāhmaṇas and ten first initiates. Prabhupāda: On the whole, fifteen. Haṁsadūta: Fifteen, seventeen. Prabhupāda: Seventeen? Haṁsadūta: Seventeen. Prabhupāda: Seventeen. Professor: How many levels of initiation do you have? Prabhupāda: Two. Professor: Two. The first... Prabhupāda: First initiation, experimental... Professor: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries. Yes. Professor: Yes. I know. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra? Prabhupāda: No. Professor: No. Tell me why? *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. There is nothing, such thing as janma. Professor: Oh. Very nice. *Prabhupāda: And another place, Bhāgavatam, there is statement of Nārada, advising Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam. There are symptoms, brāhmaṇa system, śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg. 18.42]. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, abhivyañjakaṁ varṇa. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. This is the injunction of Nārada, "The symptoms, brahminical symptoms, if it is found in the person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. And if the śūdra symptoms are visible in a person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he should be accepted as śūdra." And in the Jābāla Upaniṣad, the Satyakāma Jābāla... So Satyakāma was born of a maidservant, but he wanted to become brāhmaṇa. So he went to Gautama Muni: "Sir, make your disciple." In those days, Vaidic brahminical culture, without becoming brāhmaṇa, he cannot be initiated. Initiation means to make one brāhmaṇa. So, according to our Gosvāmī process, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has given us the book, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. In that book he has written, Professor: No, Bengali, no, I don't. But it doesn't matter. *Prabhupāda: Bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. It is almost Sanskrit. "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in the land of Bhāratavarṣa," janma sārthaka kari, "making his life successful," kara para-upakāra. Para-upakāra. Para-upakāra means everyone is in slumber and considering himself that he is body, like cats and dogs. Therefore, they should be raised to the spiritual consciousness that "You are not cats and dogs. You are Brahman." Just realize "ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This is para-upakāra. So we are doing that. We are awakening everyone. Uttiṣṭhataḥ jāgrataḥ prāpta-varaṁ nibodhata: "You have got now human being form of life. Now get up and make your life successful by spiritual realization." This is our message. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. By spiritual realization everyone will become happy. Without spiritual realization, nobody can become happy. This is our mission. Professor: Thank you. Prabhupāda: So Indian caste brāhmaṇas, they are against me, against me. They come to fight with me that I am spoiling Hindu religion. Professor: (laughs) Well, you are a brāhmaṇa yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes. I am now sannyāsī. Haṁsadūta: This is a statement of account from the Central Bank of India. It just arrived from London. Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause, opens letter) Any other letter? No. Haṁsadūta: That's all. No. Prabhupāda: So just see how we have translated. You are Sanskrit scholar. *Professor: You know the Kali*-santaraṇa Upaniṣad? *Prabhupāda: Kali*-santaraṇa Upaniṣad. Yes. Professor: Yes, I have made a translation of it into French. It's under print now at the present. *Prabhupāda: Kali*-santaraṇa Upaniṣad? That is Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Professor: Yeah, that the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That's the... Yogeśvara: You mentioned that to Professor Stahl in your correspondences. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yogeśvara: You mentioned that in the Kali*-santaraṇa Upaniṣad the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is specifically recommended to counteract the contamination. Prabhupāda: Now it is translated by you. Professor: Yeah. Yogeśvara: In French? Professor: In French, yes. I'll send you a copy when, when it's out of the press. It is not a fact at present. Well, I thank you very much for being kind enough... Yogeśvara: If you have questions, you shouldn't feel shy. You can ask whatever you want. Professor: No, why not? *Prabhupāda: No. He has already questioned once, that I am making brāhmaṇa*-whether it is according to śāstra? Professor: That's the usual question. That's not the first time this question has been asked to you. Prabhupāda: No, it is... We do not do anything which is not in śāstra. So this Jābāla Upaniṣad, this Satyakāma Jābāla, he went to Gautama Muni for initiation. So Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He replied that he did not know. "So ask your mother." The mother was asked also. She said, "No, I do not know." He came to Gautama Muni and said that, "My father's name is neither known to my mother nor to me." Professor: Yes, yes. I know this story. Prabhupāda: Then he accepted that "You are a brāhmaṇa," because he is talking truth. Professor: The truth, satyam. Prabhupāda: That is the sign. *Professor: The sign. It's a well*-known story. Prabhupāda: Therefore, by birth, a brāhmaṇa is not made. By character. Professor: Yes, I agree with that. And what about girls? Do you initiate girls? Or not? Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: Do you initiate girls? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So many girls. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Professor: That's... Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. Give him, Paṇḍita Mahāśaya. Professor: Just like Gārgī and... Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gārgī. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ. Yogeśvara: It's rather remarkable if one takes into account the fact that most of us come from backgrounds which had nothing whatsoever to do with the standards of brahminical culture. Professor: That's right. Yes, that's... Yogeśvara: We were, we were steeped in all kinds of bad habits. Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic injunction, the Westerners are mlecchas, yavanas. You know better than me. Professor: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So pāpa*-yoni. And therefore, Kṛṣṇa says... What does He say? Pradyumna: Professor: Yes. *Prabhupāda: In another place, in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, I think Second, Second Canto... Find out this verse: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ [SB 2.4.18]. Professor: This one? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā... Pradyumna: We publish these with nice indices. Professor: Oh, yes, yes. It is so strange to have an index. Yes. Prabhupāda: Index, there is. *Professor: Śloka*-sūcī. Yes, there is index. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pradyumna: Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ ye 'nye ca pāpā... Prabhupāda: The name, yavana, is there. *Pradyumna: ...yad*-apāśrayāśrayāḥ śudhyanti tasmai prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Translation: "Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, Yavana, and the Khasa races, and even others, who are addicted to sinful acts, can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord due to His being the Supreme Power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him." Prabhupāda: What is the purport? *Pradyumna: Uh. "Kirāta. A province of old Bhāratavarṣa mentioned in the Bhīṣma*-parva of the Mahābhārata. Generally the Kirātas are known as the aboriginal tribes of India. And in modern days the Santal Parganas in Bihar and Chota Nagpur might comprise the old province named Kirāta." Prabhupāda: They're black. Pradyumna: "Hūṇa. The area of East Germany and part of Russia is known as the province of the Hūṇas. Accordingly, sometimes a kind of hill tribe is known as the Hūṇas, the Huns." Prabhupāda: Hoons. *Pradyumna: "Andhra. A province in Southern India mentioned in the Bhīṣma*-parva of Mahābhārata. It is still extant under the same name. Pulinda. It is mentioned in Mahābhārata, Ādi 174.38, that is the inhabitants of the province of the name, Pulinda. This country was conquered by Bhīmasena and Sahadeva. The Greeks are known as Pulindas, and it is mentioned in the Vana-parva of the Mahābhārata that the non-Vedic race of this part of the world would rule over the world. This Pulinda province was also one of the provinces of Bhārata, and the inhabitants were classified amongst the kṣatriya kings. But later on, due to their giving up the brahminical culture, they were mentioned as mlecchas, just as those who are not followers of the Islamic culture are called kafirs, and those who are not followers of the Christian culture are called heathens. Ābhīra. This name also appears in Mahābhārata, both in the Sabhā-parva and the Bhīṣma-parva. It is mentioned that this province was situated on the River Sarasvatī in Sind. The modern Sind province formerly extended on the other side of the Arabian Sea. All the inhabitants of that province were known as the Ābhīras. They were under the domination of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and, according to the statements of Mārkaṇḍeya, the mlecchas of this part of the world would also rule over Bhārata. Later on, this proved to be true, as it was proved in the case of the Pulindas. On behalf of the Pulindas, Alexander the Great conquered India, and on behalf of the Ābhīras, Muhammad Ghori conquered India. These Ābhīras were also formerly kṣatriyas within the brahminical culture, but they gave up the connection. But the kṣatriyas who were afraid of Paraśurāma and had hidden themselves in the Caucasian hilly regions later on became known as the Ābhīras, and the place they inhabited was known as Ābhīradeśa. Śumbha, or the..." [break] Prabhupāda: One Yavana fought with him, Kālayavana. Professor: Because usually the Yavanas is considered as being Greeks. Prabhupāda: Greeks. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: Not Turks. Prabhupāda: Turks and Greeks... Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the mention there? Pradyumna: Turkey. Prabhupāda: Hm. Then? Pradyumna: Then... "Another ..." Prabhupāda: As far as I have searched out from *Mahābhārata*... Yes. Pradyumna: "The western Yavana joined with Duryodhana in the Battle of Kurukṣetra under the pressure of Karṇa. It is also foretold that these Yavanas, that these Yavanas also would conquer India, and it proved to be true. Khasa..." [break] Professor: Now I understand exactly what the purpose of your movement is. I just wonder if you think the Western world is ready for this message? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not ready? So many young men are coming. Professor: So many, O.K., yes, but consideration of so many other people outside this temple... *Prabhupāda: No, any sane man will accept. This cult will not be accepted by the insane. One who is in quite order of the brain, he'll accept it. Only mūḍhas. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Professor: And in India where is your āśrama or something like that? Prabhupāda: My main āśrama is in Vṛndāvana. Professor: Where? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. Professor: Oh, in Vṛndāvana, itself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpura. Lord Caitanya. And we have got branch in Calcutta, Bombay, Hyderabad. Māyāpura and Vṛndāvana. Five, six... [break] I, I brought with me forty rupees and books. That's all. Professor: Forty rupees! That was not enough to live in Boston or in New York. Prabhupāda: Yes. And now we are spending about eighty thousand dollars per month. Professor: Per month. Prabhupāda: Throughout the whole world. But we are selling our books very nicely, about... How many, how much dollars? Yogeśvara: How many, how many lakhs of rupees of books per month, Pradyumna? Prabhupāda: No, no, daily... Professor: Lakhs of... Prabhupāda: Daily we are collecting about thirty, eight hundred... In, in, in Los Angeles we collect about eight hundred dollars daily. Yogeśvara: More than that. Prabhupāda: More than that. Eh? Haṁsadūta: I think it must be about two thousand, about twenty thousand dollars a day, through the society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: Just by selling books or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Just by selling books. Professor: You must receive gifts as well. Prabhupāda: No gifts. By selling books. Professor: Why not? Prabhupāda: There are sometimes gifts. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like George Harrison has given us a house in London, Letchmore Heath. It is worth 220,000 pounds. Haṁsadūta: Over a half million dollars. Professor: Ācchā. Prabhupāda: So you can come sometimes. No you can stay there. It is very nice place. We have 17 acres of land, open, with a lake. It is a royal palace. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are installing our Deity next 21st. So if you have time, I invite you. It is not far, London. Professor: London is not far. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: The 21st of September? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-first of August. Professor: Oh, I see. Yogeśvara: In a few days. Professor: It's a big feast. Prabhupāda: So you are Sanskrit scholar. You can join with this movement and help us. Professor: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is worldwide movement. Professor: I cannot help you. That's, that's... Prabhupāda: No, you can help us. Professor: That's very strange. Prabhupāda: Some of our students are trying to learn Sanskrit. You can help them. Professor: Well, he knows very well Sanskrit. He pronounce it very well. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has learned out of his own accord, without taking help from anybody. Professor: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever little help I give, that's all. Professor: He knows how to chant the Sanskrit... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Professor: ...verse. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Professor: So probably this comes from you. Yogeśvara: But here in Paris we are also translating these books now into French. Professor: Into French? Yogeśvara: Yes. Professor: Many people are able to read it in English. Yogeśvara: Oh, but for those who cannot read the English, there's necessity in French. Professor: Quite. Oh, yes. *Yogeśvara: For example, Bhagavad*-gītā, we're preparing now in French. Professor: Oh? Yes. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasādam. *Yogeśvara: In France, I believe, the only version of Bhagavad*-gītā that people know is Aurobindo's translation. Professor: No, there are many others. Yogeśvara: Many? Professor: There are many others. Prabhupāda: English? Professor: No, no. In French. Prabhupāda: In French. *Professor: Bhagavad*-gītā? Yes. I think translated I think something like ten or twelve times. Yogeśvara: Ten or twelve times in French? Professor: Oh, yes. Yogeśvara: He says there are ten or twelve different French translations of the *Gītā*. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: In English also there are... Professor: Oh, English, more than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: English, more than that. *Yogeśvara: So now we wish to present the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Professor: As It Is. Prabhupāda: Without interpretation. And, according to the trades manager of MacMillan Company, our book is topmost selling. Professor: I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Than all other editions. Their report is. They, they print at a time fifty thousand copies. So three or four times they have already printed. Professor: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Since last August, within one year. Professor: Wow. That's a great success. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor: That's good. Prabhupāda: Now they are out of stock. Professor: Out of stock? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: So they will print it again, no? Prabhupāda: They will print it. They will supply in August or July, they said. They'll supply. So it has come out very successful. Just imagine, 200,000 copies distributed within one year. Professor: In one year. That's very good. *Prabhupāda: And in America, our people go to saṅkīrtana. Many gentlemen comes down, gets down from the car, inquires, "You have got Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is?" They purchase like that. Yes. At least, they have become inquisitive on account of the word "As It Is." Professor: What? Prabhupāda: "As It Is." Professor: Oh, As It Is, yes. *Yogeśvara: Because of the fact that our title is "Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is." Professor: "As It Is." Yogeśvara: "As It Is." Yes. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because they have read different interpretations. Now they want to read as it is. Professor: That's fine. That is fine. Prabhupāda: What, what is your opinion about interpretation? Professor: Well, it's much better to have a commentary separated, not an interpretation given mixed with the translation. It is not to be... Prabhupāda: It is not good. No. Yes. We cite them... Professor: It has to be different. *Prabhupāda: No, if you have got your own opinion, you can write your own book. But you cannot interpret on the Bhagavad*-gītā. Professor: Yes, that's right. You are right. *Prabhupāda: Then the authority of Bhagavad*-gītā is gone. But everyone is doing like that, even Dr. Radhakrishnan and others. Professor: Yes. I already know... Prabhupāda: Yes. Even Gandhi has done. Professor: Gandhi also? Prabhupāda: Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi. He has also interpreted. He has interpreted, "This body... Kurukṣetra means this body." Professor: But he didn't write it... Prabhupāda: Well, it is not widely read, but this has become a fashion, to give his own interpretation. Yes. Professor: Yeah, that's right, the fashion. That's the word. That's right. *Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa was not a so, I mean to say, ignorant, that He left something to be interpreted later on by another rascal. No. That was not Kṛṣṇa's intention. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is final. So we accept in that way. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we appeal to the people that "You think of Kṛṣṇa. You become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." All these disciples, they have been taught like that. "You offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "You worship Kṛṣṇa." That's it. And by doing that, they are advancing. Advancing. And before me, for hundreds of years or more than that, the Bhagavad-gītā was known to the European and American countries. As you say, there are so many trans... Professor: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But not a single soul became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. There is no history. Yes. So far we know, that by reading Bhagavad*-gītā, it is meant for making a person devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. But before my coming here, so many swamis came, and they preached on Bhagavad-gītā, so many scholars came, but not a single soul became a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Professor: Yes, because other... So, for instance, you have the Ramakrishna Mission... Prabhupāda: What the Ramakrishna mission has done? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna mission has done this, that they have learned to drink wine and eat meat, that's all, from the Western countries. That's all. Professor: Yes. This is so. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their contribution. And they have spoiled the Hindu culture. Professor: Oh. Yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because Vivekananda said, "Oh, what is the harm there, in eating? You can eat whatever you like. It doesn't matter in religion." It was the first. And he himself was eating anything. So all the Ramakrishna mission sannyāsīs still, they are eating meat, egg and everything, especially in America. Yes. Fish is no consideration. That is daily affair. And the turkey,... Yes. Instead of preaching here, they have taken the Western method. And Vivekananda's preaching is like Western missionaries*-open hospitals, school... Professor: You are right, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no spiritual knowledge. So therefore it has not been successful. They are preaching in the Western countries... As far I know, in America they have got ten or twelve branches. I am working for the last six years only. I have got already fifty branches. And each branch, there are devotees like them, not less than twenty*-five, up to two hundred, three hundred, all dedicated souls. Professor: And what about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? Prabhupāda: I don't take account of these because they are not standard. Professor: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: They are not standard. We are following Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, standard, and they have got their own manufactured way. So we don't recognize them. Our process is evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Paramparā. What Kṛṣṇa said, the disciplic succession will say the same thing. But they are speaking differently. So therefore we don't take them as bona fide. They are not bona fide. And from external point of view, we have got so many literatures, so many branches, so many devotees, within six years. But they haven't got such thing. Even Ramakrishna Mission. They are working for the last eighty years. And I have worked only for six years. And my result is eighty times more than them. They also acknowledge. Yogeśvara: Phalena paricīyate. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate. Yes. And we shall... Our manuscript is ready for sixty volumes but we are gradually publishing. Already we have got about twenty volumes, different kinds of literatures. Yes. Show all the books. You have seen our books? No. Professor: No, not very well. Prabhupāda: Show all the books. Bring. Bring him. Yes. Yogeśvara: These are nice paintings as well, you'll find in here. Yes, all done by the devotees. Some prasādam. This *Kṛṣṇa Book* is a summary study of the Tenth Canto, *Bhāgavatam*, the intimate pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Professor: And it is just two volumes or...? Yogeśvara: Yes, two volumes. *Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. The other book is Nectar of Devotion. It is translation from Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Professor: This is also a translation of it or...? Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: It's about that, or is it a translation. Prabhupāda: It is summary study. *Professor: Summary study, yeah. Well, the books are well*-printed and very well... I like books like this. *Prabhupāda: This is summary study of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. *Yogeśvara: We also have now the complete Caitanya*-caritāmṛta being printed by our own presses in New York City, with the original Bengali. Prabhupāda: We have got the manuscript printed? Not yet. No... Professor: Such wonderful books... Prabhupāda: No, our books are selling nicely. Professor: (laughs) Well, I believe that. One... It's nice to see that all these books around. Prabhupāda: Two thousand, three thousand dollars daily. Yogeśvara: More than that. Prabhupāda: More than that. Yogeśvara: Much more than that. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Haṁsadūta said twenty-thousand. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-thousand? Oh. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, we also have so many small books. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: These books are all by Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Later on they will write. Professor: Eh? Prabhupāda: Later on they'll write. Yes. For the time being, I am writing. Haṁsadūta: Each disciple writes one book. Professor: No. Prabhupāda: And we are printing 100,000 of these small books at a time. Professor: Each of them, or...? Prabhupāda: Yes, each of them. And as soon as they brought books in saṅkīrtana, people take it immediately-"Give me one, give me one, give me one..." That's... These books, we charge fifty cents. They pay easily. Professor: I saw that in the streets of New York. Yogeśvara: Oh yes, you've seen the saṅkīrtana party? Professor: No, I have not seen the temple, but I've seen, last time I was in New York, I saw, just in front of the library on the Fifth Avenue... Yogeśvara: He has seen our saṅkīrtana. *Haṁsadūta: He saw us on the Forty*-second Street. *Professor: Not on Forty*-second Street. Haṁsadūta: By the library. Professor: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Forty-second and Fifth Avenue. *Prabhupāda: Forty*-second Street... Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...there is public library. Professor: That was about Christmas time. Yogeśvara: Christmas time. Professor: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Professor: It was very cold, standing around this... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Then they have to take us seriously. We're there in the summer, and they think it is some kind of a festival, and then they see us... Professor: It is festival. Yogeśvara: ...in the middle of winter, and they know we're serious. Professor: It's also a kind of festival at the same time, no? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yātrā. Professor: That's festival. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Professor: You had a yātrā, I guess, in San Francisco, didn't you? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Ratha*-yātrā, yes. Professor: That was for the first time in '68, I guess. *Prabhupāda: This time I was present in the Ratha*-yātrā. Yesterday, they were showing me the film. It was very successful. Ten thousand people participated. Professor: In San Francisco, eh? Prabhupāda: No, in London. Professor: In London? When? Prabhupāda: This July 8th. Professor: This year? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Also Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Melbourne. You have got those pictures? Melbourne? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Professor: You are not organizing a yātrā in Paris? Prabhupāda: Yes, they'll do. Professor: Next year? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We had a very little one in the Bois de Bologne. Professor: That... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Next year at the Arch of Triumph. Professor: Well. Wow, it must be something, a kind of happening. *Prabhupāda: And Ratha*-yātrā, when we hold Ratha-yātrā, many thousands join. Without becoming our disciple, they chant and dance. *Professor: But did you, did you build a Mahā*-ratha? Prabhupāda: Yes. I'll show the pictures. Professor: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: It was published in, what is that, Observer paper? Śrutakīrti: Oh, yes. Yogeśvara: Yeah, the Observer, in London, the London Observer. Prabhupāda: "Rival of Nelson." Yogeśvara: It said, "A rival to Nelson's Column." They showed a picture of the Ratha next to the column of Nelson. Professor: Oh, really? Yogeśvara: Yeah. Our car was bigger than... Prabhupāda: And they published it, "Rival of Nelson. The great rival of Nelson." They appreciated. Yes. Professor: Sure, I know... *Prabhupāda: Everyone, everyone appreciated. After Ratha*-yātrā, wherever our men went, they were received very well. Professor: And what was the attitude of the Indian colony in London? Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Indian colony. Professor: There are many. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many. These are some of the pictures in Melbourne. Haṁsadūta: Three carts like this. Professor: The big wheel. That's nice. Haṁsadūta: You can see. There it's taking prasādam, serving prasādam. Everyone, so many devotees. Prabhupāda: Were there color pictures, small? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, there's a small... Śrutakīrti: This one here. Prabhupāda: No, the small... Śrutakīrti: No, oh, the small pictures... Professor: Oh, you got three different carts. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, three carts. Prabhupāda: Here is the gigantic ratha behind the crowd. The police cooperate. Professor: Oh, yes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone likes. Yes. Even Christian priests they also like. No, any sane man will like because... Somebody sends me money: "Sir, you are doing so nice work, spreading God consciousness. Here is my little contribution." Professor: I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. From your, these Western countries. Just week before, I got hundred dollars from one gentleman. Simply appreciated that I am spreading God consciousness. So actually we have no program of proselytizing or making Hindu from Christian, Christian... We have no such program. We simply want to see that everyone is God conscious. Never mind through which venue, he becomes a God conscious. It doesn't matter. That is the verdict of Bhāgavata: *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "Translation: The Supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is self*-satisfaction. Yayātmā suprasīdati. Ahaituky apratihatā. So the bhakti cult is open for everyone. Ahaituky apratihatā. Professor: Yeah, but people following you, could, could they stay in normal life, I mean have a business, etc...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why Not? There are so many... Professor: You, for instance, do you do that? Prabhupāda: He's a householder. Yes. Professor: You are still working? Yogeśvara: I design books and magazines. Professor: Where? I mean, in connection with this society? Yogeśvara: I do work for the society. Professor: But is it possible to work outside? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. We have many professors. They're being outside. But one thing is that after being interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they cannot remain outside. Professor: That's it, the point, yes. Prabhupāda: Because they don't find any suitable place. Professor: No. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Professor: Yes. But this gentleman told me that he is married, for instance. Prabhupāda: He is married. So we have got so many married couples. Professor: Your wife is here? Yogeśvara: Yes. Professor: In the same society? Yogeśvara: Yes. Professor: And in the same... Prabhupāda: She also translates. Yogeśvara: My wife translates, and I design the book. Professor: So do you think it is possible, for instance, to have the husband being involved in this movement and not his wife? *Prabhupāda: No, wife also involved. Everyone is involved. The child is also involved. You'll find in our class a small child dancing to the tune. Yes. We have opened one school for children in Dallas. All the gṛhastha*-bhaktas, those who have got children, we send there. Have you got pictures of Dallas? So there we have got very nice building, and, about, for the present, about near about hundred students. They're simply taught Sanskrit and English. Professor: Nothing else. Prabhupāda: Nothing else. Later on, little geometry, geography, mathematics. They're not meant for outside work. They're meant for as soon as they learn Sanskrit and English, they'll read these books. Professor: I see. But to get the initiation, you have to be how many years old? Prabhupāda: At least ten years. Professor: Ten years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years. That is the Vedic system. Twelve years old. He can be initiated. Professor: Yes, yes. It is the same as the upanayana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Upa means "near," nayanam, "to bring." Upanayana*-saṁskāra. And the sacred thread means that he has been accepted by the spiritual master by bringing him near to spiritual consciousness. *Professor: So at the time of initiation, you not only give the Gāyatrī*-mantra, but also the sacred thread. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: Just we have given Gāyatrī*-mantra... You have got that paper? Yes. Show him. Give him. Professor: Can I take it with me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: I'd like to read it. Well, I have been very pleased to be with you. Prabhupāda: Take prasādam. Professor: Thank you. I may take just one, thank you. Prabhupāda: No, take. Professor: More, I cannot take. It's not possible. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Kṛṣṇa, in His childhood. You have seen the picture, Lugdu Gopāla. Professor: Yes, yes. Yogeśvara: Lugdu Gopāla. *Prabhupāda: We are therefore going to Kṛṣṇa*-to taste lugdu with him. Lugdu, kachorī... From that Kṛṣṇa Book... You can find out that picture. Yogeśvara: Find out the picture. Prabhupāda: How Kṛṣṇa is enjoying lugdu with His friends. Professor: Yes. Yogeśvara: He's taking lunch. Prabhupāda: Yes. They're taking lunch, and Brahmā is playing trick. Yogeśvara: You know the story? Professor: Of what? Yogeśvara: Lord Brahmā stole away all of Kṛṣṇa's cows and... Professor: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I know. Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa again expanded Himself into so many cows, calves, friends. Then Brahmā thought that he is defeated. Professor: Yes, this time... Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you. Professor: Thank you very much. (end) Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973 Śrīla Prabhupāda: But death is compelling me to die. There is no science, no philosophy, no hero to conquer over this death. This is our philosophy: how to conquer over the race between life and death. Now you find out that verse, Śyāmasundara: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not upon leaving the body take his birth again in this material world." Prabhupāda: "Does not take his birth again." Śyāmasundara: "But attains My eternal abode." Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the winning over death. What is that process? Śyāmasundara: Ah, "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities." Prabhupāda: Simply if you know what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what are His activities. These things, if you try to understand, then you conquer over death. Graham Hill: And anyone who, I mean, you know the (indictinct) and you are telling your followers. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is our philosophy. We are spreading this philosophy. That conquer over death and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore our name of the paper is Back to Godhead. Winning over the race between life and death and get your eternal life and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. Graham Hill: You believe then, in that we come back, rebirth again in another form. Prabhupāda: Yes, transmigration. Just like you also were a boy like him, but where is that body? There is no... That body, that is finished. But you exist, you remember that you were a boy like him. You remember that boy's childhood body. So that body is finished but you are not finished. So therefore you, the soul, is eternal. You are simply changing body. This is called death. Death means changing the body. As soon as the body becomes old enough, no more youthful, then you die. Die means to change the body just like you change your garment. When the garment is no more useful, then you change to another garment. That is truth. vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. (aside:) You come here. Just like jīrṇāni, when old garment, no more youthful, you change it to a new garment. (aside:) Come here, find out vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya. Pradyumna: Graham Hill: And you go back to Godhead, you go back to home. *Prabhupāda: That is ultimate goal. So long we do not go back to home, back to Godhead, we have to, in our material existence, we have to change from one body to another. That is going on. And there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies. The cats and dogs, they are also living entities, but they have got a different type of body. Every one of us, different type body. Even they are children, their body is different from your body. Even the (indistinct). Although their body is obtained, there are some similarities. But if you analyze very scrutinizingly there will be some difference from your body, from your daughter's body, from your boy's body. So every body, every living entity is getting a certain type of body according to his desire. According to his desire. So that desire means material enjoyment. Just like you have got certain desire to become champion in racing. Another body has got desire to become something else. Another body has got desire for something else. So we have got this freedom by the grace of God or Kṛṣṇa. Because we are children. He has given freedom. "All right, if you want this, take it." In this way our life is going on. This is called birth and death. One chapter you are finishing in one life, next chapter begins another life. Next chapter begins another life. So the problem is birth and death. But nobody wants birth and death. Nobody wants. But it is there on account of our material life. So in material life there are four problems: birth, death, old age, and disease. So long one has to accept a material body, he has to accept these miseries also. Birth is also misery. When the child remains within the womb, in a compact bag... Very precarious condition. We have forgotten, but it is very precarious condition. And for ten months, because he is unconscious at least for seven months he cannot understand. But after seven months when the child becomes conscious, it is very intolerable. He always prays, "Oh, how to get out, how to get out." Then he gets, come out, comes out. Then another life begins. That is also accompanied with so many miserable conditions from the birth. Just like, don't mind, when you drive your car, it is not a very good position. (laughter) Yes. But you are taking that risk for winning over. But the position is not very good. At any moment there can be accident. So similarly, we are trying to achieve some goal of life, every one of us*-there are so many varieties of living entities-with the risk of life and death, old age and disease. But if we know what is our actual aim of life... The actual aim of life should be back to home, back to Godhead. Then this human form of life is successful. Just like your son. If he goes out independent. Now he is under father's protection, he is very happy. But if he declares his independence... Just like Śyāmasundara. He is very rich man's son. His father, I met him. His father is a big lawyer, big businessman. But he declared independence. And I know his life history, how much he had to go through so many tribulations. Similarly, we are also sons of God. We have declared independence and we are going through so many chapters of life and death in different... Now we have got... Suppose you have got now a nice Englishman's body but next body you do not know what kind of body you are going to get. That will depend on your karma and desire. Graham Hill: (indistinct) what sort of body we have been in in the past? Prabhupāda: Yes, in the past. You forgot, but in the past you had life. Just like in the past I was young man. That's a fact. Similarly, but that young body is no more existing. Similarly, I had a past life but I have forgotten. That is the... Forgetfulness is our nature. Death means forgetting what was your first, past life. That is by nature you become forgetful because if you remember our past life and compare with this life... Suppose one was very rich man and if he becomes a poor, a cat and dog, then if he remembers, then it is very unbearable for him. Therefore nature helps him to forget. Forget. Otherwise he cannot do it. But the real problem is that we are eternal soul, we are changing our body one after another, birth and death. Apart from worldly happiness and distress, this birth and death, that is not very good process. At death time we have to suffer so much that we give up this body. And then again we enter into the womb of a mother. That is not very good situation. Then when come out there are so many tribulations, disease, then again old age. So people do not understand that he is passing... Especially when we are in other than human life. There are 8,400,000 species of life. Aquatics, then birds, trees, plants, insects, then beasts. In this way we come to human form of life. This is evolution. So in this human form of life there is chance of understanding the problems of life. In other forms of life it is not possible. Graham Hill: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is consciousness. Full consciousness. But if that consciousness is developed into Kṛṣṇa consciousness then his life is success. Graham Hill: Can we look at ourselves and say, well, this body that we inherited, the bodies that we're in now, are the results of the behavior of our souls when we were in our previous... Prabhupāda: Yes. Graham Hill: And then can we sort of, by looking at ourselves, can we get the sort of person we were when we were here before? Prabhupāda: Yes. Graham Hill: Can we? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is... There is... Even astrology, Bṛghu*-saṁhitā. Astrological calculation. You can know your past life, present life, and future life. There is system. Bṛghu-saṁhitā. Graham Hill: So by our behavior (indistinct) will determine what sort of body we will get when we return? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you are educating your son for future life. So according to his education, according to his qualification, his future life will be fixed up. If he is properly educated he can become a very big man. And if he is not, he may not become. So this life is preparation for the next life. So this human form of life, if we are advanced in our consciousness then we should try to get our next life going back to home, back to Godhead. This... Śyāmasundara: There is no more body? No more body? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, this body you have got. Just like this hat and coat, vasamsi, this is covering of your body. So you have got already your spiritual body. Śyāmasundara: Spiritual body. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is now covered by this material element. So emancipation or salvation means you no more get your material body. But your body is already there. Just like in this body, I have got my body. And because I have got a hand my dress has got a hand. Because I have got a leg, my pant has got a leg. So this superficial, external body is simply covering of your original body. The original body is spiritual. So go back to home back to Godhead means you remain in your original spiritual body. You get freedom from this covering of material body. Now that spiritual body you can transfer to so many ways. Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Higher planetary system of demigods, yes. Pradyumna: "Those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth amongst such beings. Those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors. And those who worship Me will live with Me." Prabhupāda: Yes. So we can transfer to any form of body. Simply you have to prepare. But if we remain in our original body then you go back to home, back to Godhead. Graham Hill: How do we attain our spiritual body? Prabhupāda: You have got already spiritual body. Graham Hill: I mean, how did I get my spiritual body? Prabhupāda: Because you are part and parcel of God. God is all spirit. Just like materially, because you have got white body your son has got white body. Similarly, God is all spirit. Therefore you are son of God, part and parcel of God, then you are all spirit. But you have got this material covering because you wanted to come here and enjoy or lord it over the material nature. Everyone is trying to that. Everyone is trying to become a very prominent man in this material world. That is he can lord it over the material nature. So because you desire to lord it over the material nature you have to accept a material body. Graham Hill: Are all spiritual bodies the same? I mean, is your spiritual body exactly the same as... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Spiritually you are all the same. Just like as human beings you are all the same but you may have a black dress, I may have a saffron dress, he may have white dress. This is outward covering. This is not myself. Similarly, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Within this body the spirit soul is there and he is changing different types of bodies. So when he accepts a process, this going back to home, back to Godhead, to Kṛṣṇa, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body. He remains in his own spiritual body. And spiritual body by original constitution it is eternal. Eternal. Nityaṁ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne [Bg. 2.20]. na jāyate mriyate vā kadācin. This is a description of it. Śyāmasundara: In the spiritual bodies aren't there also individualities? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śyāmasundara: My spiritual body won't be the same as... Prabhupāda: Yes, just like father and son. Son is also individual. Father is also individual. Although the son is born of the body of the father, of the mother. But he is individual. He is individual. He can disobey father or he can obey the father. So long he obeys he is happy. When he disobeys he is unhappy. (to child) Is that all right? Eh? You want to be happy or unhappy? Obey your father, that's all. (laughter) Very simple philosophy. Yes. Graham Hill: (indistinct) at home he is very active. Prabhupāda: Yes, ...that's nice. Yes. So he sometimes becomes disobedient? Sometimes? Eh? Why? (laughs) That means you have got independence. Is it not? Yes. That means he has got independence. Yes. This is a fact. Similarly we are sons of God, we have got little independence. We may remain with God, we may give up His company and come here to find our own fortune. And to find our own fortune we are becoming implicated and taking birth in different species of life. That is our ignorance. You are obedient to your mother? Girl: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Sometimes, not always. Girl: Yes. Prabhupāda: She is the youngest? Ah, therefore she must be disobedient. (laughter) Daughter is eldest? This daughter? Oh. You are obedient? Girl: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Sometimes? Not always? (laughs) All right. Thank you. Graham Hill: She's a bit wild when she is at home. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So give them prasadam. Oh, (indistinct) that's nice. So I am very glad to see you with your all family. Ah. Please come here. We have got very... (end) Morning Walk -- August 30, 1973, London David Lawrence: ...in fact we're now able to think in terms of the date for the production of the booklet. And, and also for the teacher's pack. If you remember, that's a very important thing this teacher's pack. The record. And George has expressed very great enthusiasm about the booklet. Prabhupāda: You saw him? David Lawrence: I haven't seen him yet, but he'd left last evening I believe before I got up. Śyāmasundara: I talked to him last night. Prabhupāda: About this booklet? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Also he's reading *Kṛṣṇa Book* right now, George. He's in the fourth chapter, just starting to... David Lawrence: As regards a publishing date, they've asked for a manuscript at the end of September and as you'll probably have gone back to India then... Prabhupāda: So we have to see the manuscript. David Lawrence: That's it. I want to let you see the manuscript... Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara... David Lawrence: ...before the time. So at least somebody can vet it, you see. Prabhupāda: We are speaking of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The message is from the spiritual world. It is not of this material world. Therefore sometimes people may misunderstand. So we have to explain it nicely. Just like they cannot even understand what is the soul. A minute particle of spirit, it is... But they do not understand. Big big scientist, big, big philosophers. But the entire subject matter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not of this material world. All it is of spiritual world, but they have no information of the spirit and the spiritual world. Therefore, sometimes they find it very difficult to understand. *David Lawrence: One of the very important enclosures which we mentioned when I came up last, for the teachers' pack this was, not for the actual booklet, was a series of questions, what we would call sticky ones in the West, but I'm sure you'll deal with them with very great ease. I've tried to produce what I thought would be objections to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not as such to theism, but more to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if I could, Mukunda has got them in fact, there's about eight or nine. And if you could be pleased to perhaps answer them on tape, and I can have them transposed. We're going to produce this in the teachers' pack six or seven sheets of cyclo*-styled notes for the teachers. So they'll be able to meet the objections perhaps, of their students. Some of the intelligent students may make points which clearly can be met. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: But we can meet them, in a sense, before they're even asked. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: That makes it even more impressive. Prabhupāda: In which point the students may possibly object? David Lawrence: Well I've mentioned a few points on which... You know, obviously, I've studied a bit more deeply than the average student, because of the university and all this sort of business, which gives a particular form of knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. *David Lawrence: Let me think of one, yes, one that I asked which I know Mukunda has already answered for me, but we need it in the teachers' pack, of course, is the fact of the dating of the Vedas. You know, people like some of the archaeologists such as A.L. Basham and Mortimer Wheeler maintain that the Harrapa dig, so to speak, in the Indus Valley and Mahenjo*-Daro and all those towns, show the dating of the Vedas in fact to be a great deal later, you know, and therefore to take away, some people would say this, to deprive the Vedas of a certain amount of authority because they no longer, according to these men, would appear to be the most ancient religious scriptures in the world. And that, that sort of question, which... Prabhupāda: Veda means not religion, Veda means knowledge. So if you can trace out the history of knowledge, then you can trace out what is the date of Veda. Can you trace out? When...? Which is the date when knowledge began. Can you trace out? David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could. Prabhupāda: Eh? David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could. Prabhupāda: So how you can trace out the history of *Vedas*? *Vedas* means knowledge. *Vedas* means knowledge. So first of all find out from which date knowledge began. Then you find out the date of the *Vedas*. David Lawrence: Yes, it seemed to me, I tried to read certainly, A.L. Basham... *Prabhupāda: Those who know Sanskrit, they know what is the meaning of Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda*-vid jñāne. Jñāna means knowledge. That means the history of Veda means from the date of creation of this material world. Now find out the date of creation of the material world. Approximately, nobody can give what is the date of. We can, we cannot... Date of Brahmā, he got the, first of all, the Vedic knowledge. Now, one day of Brahmā you cannot calculate. One day of Brahmā. And the... When Brahmā's night is there, there is devastation up to some extent. So again in the daytime of Brahmā, that creation takes place. There are two kinds of devastation. One devastation is at the night of Brahmā and one final devastation is the whole cosmic manifestation finished. So these teeny people, they are after the dates of Vedas, and that is ludicrous, that is...(laughs) Just like there are many microbes, they grow in the evening and die just in the day beginning. So whole night is their span of life. So our life is like that. What history you can write? Therefore, we receive Vedic knowledge from the authorities. And what is the value of these dates? David Lawrence: (laughs) Indeed. I mean it's the sort of thing that Western scholars excel in, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Suppose if you try to trace out when the human being began calling "mother." Can you trace out the history? Śyāmasundara: They try to take away from the *Vedas* by making it seem very young so that the Bible is older. They think that *Vedas* came from Bible, many scholars. Prabhupāda: Oh? These rascals think like that? David Lawrence: Yes, you see they say that the, because the Āryans came from or passed through at least the Middle East, that in fact some of the older parts of the Old Testament predate, so they say, and indeed some of the Egyptian higher, some of the better Egyptian stuff... Prabhupāda: So one should transcend these, what is called, historical references. They calculate in Darwin's theory. David Lawrence: Darwin's theory's out now isn't it? (laughs) It's sort of old fashioned now. They dispense with these theories as quickly as most people do their newspaper each day. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. David Lawrence: One day it's in, and the next day it's out. And while it's in, everybody claps and applauds. One or two other points, perhaps I can raise one or two of them. Some of them are longer in fact. An interesting thing that came out of my study of the Christian, or certainly the Jewish tradition, and I wondered, really, on your views on this, whether it relates at all to the Indian one. It seems when you get to the really high spot of Jewish religion, which many people consider the prophets of Judah..., Prabhupāda: What is their high spot? David Lawrence: Well, exactly,(laughs) that is, in inverted commas. Prabhupāda: They are rotting in the lowest spot, still. What is their high spot? David Lawrence: Let's think, somebody like, perhaps Isaiaḥ or somebody like this who was a universalist and uh... Prabhupāda: Somebody, somebody says so many things... David Lawrence: Yes, that's right. Oh yes, I mean if you take them, they all differ in their views. But one of the things, one of the themes that comes through is the idea that... Prabhupāda: Therefore the gentleman the other day was asking, "How is that you say electricity?" Oh you were not present that time? Because we have translated there is no need of sun, there is no need of moon, there is no need of electricity in the spiritual world. So when he heard the word electricity, he became astonished. Śyāmasundara: He thought the word did not exist at the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: Yes, I must admit I was amazed at that reference, reading that yesterday. Prabhupāda: That frog philosophy is going on. Dr. Frog. He's simply calculating the well, that's all. How there can be Atlantic Ocean? That is frog philosophy. You know frog philosophy? Yes? David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: You know? I don't think you know. Who can explain what is that frog philosophy? Śyāmasundara: Frog philosophy is trying to imagine the size of the Atlantic Ocean never having left my well. David Lawrence: Oh, I see, yes. Completely beyond one's experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, especially of the Mr. Frog, Dr. Frog. He has never seen what is Atlantic Ocean and somebody informed him, "Oh I have seen such a vast mass of water." "Oh, is it bigger than this well?" David Lawrence: Yes, beyond his conception. Prabhupāda: These people are like frogs rotting in the well, and what they can understand of the Vedic knowledge? David Lawrence: Yes. One of the themes, really, that interested me was this yearning, certainly it was true amongst the Jews, to return to a rural background, you know, to a rural sort of setting. I wondered if you felt much of the *Vedas* was in fact a firm belief an affirmation if you like, that the most true form of life, the most pure form of life is one that's lived alongside nature, not against nature as we seem to be doing in our urban setting. Prabhupāda: What, I don't... Śyāmasundara: In the Jewish tradition, they yearn for a life of living on farms, villages, small communities with cows and agriculture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Is this also expressed in the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. David Lawrence: You feel that strongly. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is real life. Real life means you have to minimize your bodily activities so that you can save time and devote for spiritual understanding. That is real life. And the present civilization based on bodily concept of life is animal life. It is not civilized life. Civilized life means athāto brahma jijñāsā. When one is advanced so much so that he inquires about the spirit soul. But there is no such inquiry. Like the cats and dogs, they cannot inquire what is spirit soul. So Vedic life means to become free as much as possible from the bodily disturbances. Therefore, the first education is to become brahmacārī, celibacy. You see? Now, at the present moment, they are trying to make the abortion as law. But these rascals cannot check their sex life. You see? Their philosophy is that you shall go on with sex life unrestrictedly and when there is pregnancy, kill the child. David Lawrence: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is their rascal's philosophy. They have no idea that by training one can forget sex life. So if you forget sex life, where is the question of abortion? Where is the question of abortion? But they cannot do that. Therefore, it is said adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By nonrestricted sense enjoyment they are gradually going to the animal, lower grade of life. They cannot explain why there are so many varieties of life. They cannot explain. So this killer of baby within the womb, so the result will be that this man who is, I mean to say, indulging in abortion, he'll be put into the womb, and somebody will kill him. And as many wombs or babies he has killed, he'll have to take so many lives and being killed. So much so that it will be rather impossible for him for hundreds of years not to see the light. He'll remain in the womb and being killed. Does not know the nature's law. One cannot violate the nature's law. You can violate the state law. Suppose you kill somebody, you can escape by trick. But you cannot escape nature's law. As many times you have killed, so many times you have to be killed within the womb. This is nature's law. David Lawrence: I was very interested to talk to a nurse in one of the main London hospitals only last week in fact, and she was saying that they're having an almost impossible time trying to man these abortion wards now because all the nurses and doctors just don't want to do the work. In some cases, she was saying, that they take a baby from its mother's womb and it's sort of put onto a tray and thrown into a litter bin and you can see it moving! Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: And they've had one or two cases at their hospital where they've gone out afterwards and they've seen babies moving! Terrible. Prabhupāda: It has been seen in Calcutta also, in dust bin found out some child, dust bin. David Lawrence: Terrible. Some are in such an advanced state of pregnancy that clearly life is a strong possibility. David Lawrence: Miracle. Prabhupāda: What do they know? They do not know anything. David Lawrence: No, no. I was absolutely amazed to read an article... *Prabhupāda: This is Vedic knowledge. So you'll get everything perfect. Therefore, how there can be any history? That is the difficulty. We are speaking everything, of the spiritual. Therefore, it is sometimes very difficult for the gross materialist. They are so dull*-headed, they cannot understand. David Lawrence: The British Association which is, many people regard an irrelevant bunch of scientists, who meet once a year, one of the good speeches was in fact given on the question of the value of human life. And one of the points was made there by somebody who has had to talk to these girls who come in to have abortions, some cases their third and fourth abortion, and they're not married of course. And saying that many of the girls regard an abortion in the same way as they regard a shampoo for their hair. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: "O, well you know, hair's got to be washed, we wash hair. Womb's got to be cleaned out, we clean the womb out." Just like that. Prabhupāda: And where is movement in the shampoo? That means that human beings are simply being put into ignorance, animal kingdom. This is modern civilization. David Lawrence: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: To keep people in ignorance, in darkness, is ajānat. Ajānat. The Sanskrit word is ajānat. Lokasya ajānat. Ajānat means to keep in darkness. They do not know anything about the importance of life. Ajānat. Yayā sammohito jīva ātmānaṁ tri*-guṇātmakam [SB 1.7.5]. By this ajānat principle a man considers that this, "I am this matter." They are all doing all these things because they have no spiritual understanding. David Lawrence: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Taking the body as lump of matter. That's all. To break a stone and to kill the body of a child is the same thing. They think like that. David Lawrence: And yet the incredible thing is the obsession with making life longer. I mean, what is the point of making a life longer that is a worthless life anyway? Because they're so materialistic. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: Take a man, somebody could say he's given a great deal of enjoyment, a man like Walt Disney, you know. He's had his body put into... Prabhupāda: Well, longer life, you can see this tree, you'll find at least five hundred years old. So this kind of longer life, what is the value? What is the value? There are many trees... I have seen one tree in San Francisco, seven thousand years old. David Lawrence: Oh, the redwood... Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: ...the redwoods, yes. Makes Walt Disney look a bit... Prabhupāda: So this kind of longer life, what is the value? *David Lawrence: Yes, you know he had his body put into suspended animation. I don't know what they call it, cytology is it or something? They have them put into chemicals and bathed. Because he died of cancer and he wants to be woken up in about fifty years time when they've got the cure for cancer and then he can live again and make a few more films apparently. (laughter) It's extraordinary attitude to life isn't it really? One of the other problems that I was going to raise, and in fact it appears in the question sheet, it seems to be some, in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, is that the right pronunciation? I always get these things wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes, *Bhāgavatam*. David Lawrence: A very great deal of what one could call demonology if you like. Now, I confess this raises problems for me. When a book like that... Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata was written five thousand years ago. David Lawrence: Yes, very, very ancient. Is it to be taken, the references say to Pūtanā, is this to be taken... Prabhupāda: It is also fact. David Lawrence: ...physically or spiritually as a demonic power or what? Prabhupāda: No, no, which one? David Lawrence: Where, is it the demoness Pūtanā takes Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa sucks her breast? Śyāmasundara: Should it be taken literally or allegorically? Prabhupāda: No, literally, literally. David Lawrence: Yeah, literally as a physical fact. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes. David Lawrence: Now, having said that then, if one goes on logically... Prabhupāda: You'll find so many demons like Pūtanā even at the present moment. David Lawrence: So one could leap from behind a tree, putting it tritely if you like. Prabhupāda: The, the *Bhāgavatam*, there is nothing... well, there are some figurative use. Just like we speak the story of Aesop's fables. That is for instruction. Just like jackal is talking with a lion. You see? So, there are stories like that. David Lawrence: Yes, there are figurative stories. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: I mean, one or two of the stories there's a reference to Kṛṣṇa and the unmarried gopīs, saying that He treated them like dolls yet they were well pleased with Him. Now, would it be right to say that the main point of that story, rather than... Prabhupāda: Dolls? David Lawrence: Yes, it says He treated them rather like dolls. It's your own translation on that one. But they were well pleased with Him. Is the point of the story... *Prabhupāda: Dolls, dolls means just like doll*-player, they make the dolls dance. It is like that. David Lawrence: Yes, as He wishes. Prabhupāda: Puppets, yes, puppets. David Lawrence: Yes. I mean is that to be taken again literally or is there, as you say, a figurative meaning there in terms of faith? Prabhupāda: No, that is literally. Because gopīs were just dancing according to Kṛṣṇa's desire. They are so devotees that whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, they are prepared to do. David Lawrence: See, without being too irreverent, it seems a strange thing to get young ladies to undress in front of you. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say... David Lawrence: I'm probably misunderstanding it you see. Prabhupāda: ...it will be difficult for ordinary persons. Still, as far as possible, I have tried to explain for understanding of the ordinary people. By general reading, it is not difficult. David Lawrence: . This is the sort of problem one comes across, whether in fact... You see, having grown up in what was really a very liberal, critical attitude... Prabhupāda: Therefore, this portion of Kṛṣṇa's life is depicted on the Tenth Canto. Nine Cantos are devoted to understand Kṛṣṇa. So without understanding Kṛṣṇa if one tries to read the life and pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, it may be misleading. David Lawrence: Yes, yes. I think somewhere it says... Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata begins, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], what is the original source of creation. Not abruptly Kṛṣṇa. Then after developing all such knowledge one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. But in the spiritual world there are activities like that. The material world is only perverted reflection of these activities of the spiritual world. Perverted reflections. It is reflection, but perverted. Therefore, it is difficult. Everything is there. Basic principle that Kṛṣṇa loved the gopīs... Gopīs were young girls, Kṛṣṇa was young boy, But the same love between young boy and girl here is lust. Therefore, it is perverted. The reflection is there, but it is not love, it is lust. David Lawrence: Yes, that's the difference. Prabhupāda: That's the difference. David Lawrence: Yes. So it's using our experiences and refining them and distilling them and showing what the true value of these experiences is. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: ...the true meaning of them. Prabhupāda: In the gopīs' love with Kṛṣṇa, there is no lust. That is the difference. David Lawrence: Reverence isn't it, reverence for Him. *Prabhupāda: Here, the so*-called love is lust only. It is going on in the name of love. Actually it is not love. And because it is not love, therefore such kind of love does not continue very long. It breaks. David Lawrence: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we don't find in the history of spiritual world the love between the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa broke at any time. That is the difference. David Lawrence: Yes,yes. Whereas one in three of the Western marriages, so they say, is destined to break. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: That's what they say now, one in three. It's the latest figures. *Prabhupāda: The same thing is there, but they are dragging this lusty affairs to Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the rascals, they paint Kṛṣṇa's picture with gopīs so that their lusty activities may be supported*-Kṛṣṇa also had like that. This is misunderstanding. They do not take into calculation: Here, so-called love is lust and it breaks. But in the gopīs' love with Kṛṣṇa there is no breaking but increasing of love. So how they can compare Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs with these lusty affairs? David Lawrence: I must admit, yes, I've read far enough on to see that and I think this is... *Prabhupāda: When we make analogy, the points of similarity must be there. But these rascals are so dull*-headed that they have not even logical arguments. Where are the points of similarity? That we are comparing these lusty affairs of this material world with the affairs of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs? Where is the similarity? David Lawrence: There's never mention of lust or of any animal desire at all is there? Prabhupāda: No, no. David Lawrence: It's just reverence and love. Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa used to dance with so many gopīs, everything is described there, that they embraced, they kissed, but there is no such thing abortion or contraceptive. (laughter) So these things have to be studied. How we can compare gopīs' love with Kṛṣṇa with these lusty affairs of this material world? David Lawrence: Can't be done. Another question that raised itself, you'll see in the paper in fact, was the little mention in one of the books that I was reading, not from Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just to get a bit of background, on Lord Caitanya, and it seems to have been... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is already there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, described. David Lawrence: Yes. If you like, the later manifestation isn't it. Of the avatāra. Prabhupāda: We are simply trying to present them, that's all. It is not we have manufactured something, no. There is no question of concoction, manufacturing. David Lawrence: No. Just passing on what has already been there. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already there. When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is already there. When we speak of Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana is already there. It is not that we have manufactured some picture, imagination, no. They take it like that. The rascals take it like that, that it is a kind of imagination of the poet. The Māyāvādī philosophers also take like that. But that's not the fact. It is actually presentation of the spiritual facts and as the spiritual activities are quite different from material activities, they misunderstand. They misunderstand. David Lawrence: Yes. It's one of the interesting features was, of this little bit about Lord Caitanya was in fact that he claimed Him to be pathological. Prabhupāda: Just like... *David Lawrence: You know the manifestations obviously of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and kīrtana and so on. Seems to be obviously you regard as a scurrilous or wrong*-headed or a dull-headed field of people who regard His manifestations of God consciousness as verging on madness, or temporary madness. What would you say about that. Obviously you would reject it. Prabhupāda: When a man is himself mad, he'll find others mad. David Lawrence: Yes, true. (laughter) Yes, he sees a reflection of himself. *Prabhupāda: If one is himself deaf, he'll think others are deaf. So ātmavat manyate jagat, everyone thinks the whole world is like him. Therefore they think Kṛṣṇa also like him. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. That is condemned in the Bhagavad*-gītā that "These rascals, because I come in human form to benefit them, they take Me as human being." That is mentioned. But these things are taken like that by the mūḍhas. Mūḍhas means rascals, asses. David Lawrence: Really they're just talking, as you say, from within their own experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. David Lawrence: They're being, lacking in imagination really because they can't imagine what happens when God possesses a man. Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa is lifting the Govardhana Hill, they are thinking this is imagination. But if actually Kṛṣṇa is God, is it very difficult for Him to lift a mountain? He's floating so many heavy planets in the air, so, weightlessness. If Kṛṣṇa can make weightless so many heavy planets, is it very difficult for Him to make the Govardhana Hill weightless? David Lawrence: Not at all. Prabhupāda: So these things have to be understood. David Lawrence: So once again you'd say that this was a... *Prabhupāda: Therefore, in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is clearly said bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Simply through devotional service one can understand Me. Others will misunderstand. [break] David Lawrence: Yes, one doesn't become concerned with these what really are the superficials of an inner state. You accept and appreciate the validity of bhakti. Prabhupāda: What is this? Śyāmasundara: It's a sentry post for watchguards. Prabhupāda: Oh. David Lawrence: Once again, many thanks for your tremendous cooperation and as I say I hope it won't put you to too much work. Obviously some of these things have already been met. To a certain extent we've done some of the work already, haven't we? Prabhupāda: Some of our students may read. If it is presented, if it is misrepresented then it is useless to publish. David Lawrence: I don't want that to happen, you see. This is why I'm so anxious that at every stage it be seen. Prabhupāda: So you read it and find out. David Lawrence: Will you? Śyāmasundara: Sure, sure, sure. David Lawrence: That will be... I've said to the publishers, as far as I'm concerned, they've given me a date at the end of September, but I've said if the people in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement do not accept what I've put forward as a representative view of their own, then the date's going to go back. I've said that. So that's an accepted idea. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Śyāmasundara: ...he's very happy and he's going to, for vacation for one month in September so that he can read and chant for one month undisturbed. He's reading now *Kṛṣṇa Book* daily. Prabhupāda: He should, one day should have come here see the Deity. Śyāmasundara: He's going to come before he leaves. He's leaving on fifth September. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Śyāmasundara: He's coming next week. Mālatī: She is doing her japa. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) Room Conversation with Officer Harry Edwards, the Village Policeman -- August 30, 1973, Bhaktivedanta Manor, London Prabhupāda: Generally the gypsies are Egyptian, but are they Egyptian or English? Harry: No, no. Guest: No, these are really tinkers. They're just... Śyāmasundara: (talking in background:) In a sense. In a sense. Harry: They are, they are wanderers actually. But there are various kinds of gypsies. Now, you've got gypsies... Prabhupāda: In India, we have got gypsies. Harry: Yeah, types of gypsies. Revatīnandana: Baul? Bauls? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: Bauls, or...? What are they called? Bauls? Bauls in Bengal? Prabhupāda: Baul, Baul. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No, Baul is different. Harry: In this country... It's rather interesting. Prabhupāda: Gypsies are all over the world. Śyāmasundara: Rajasthan, they come, many gypsies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: Romeos, Romanic gypsies. Prabhupāda: Nomadic. Harry: Romanic? No, Romanies. They're the ones that, they're... Well, they have nothing white. Śyāmasundara: Nothing white? Harry: No, nothing white. Guest: Everything's brightly colored... *Harry: They will have white, but not pure white. They will have white, but there will be colors. Now they are real gypsies. Then you've got your show gypsies, show*-business gypsies, you know, from the fairs, the World Circus. Revatīnandana: They're called carnies in the states, carnies. Harry: Yeah. They won't mix. This other, of the top class, they won't mix with those, the showmen. Then you've got what we call Ditticoys(?), and what they term "men of the woods", crawlers, hedge crawlers, Ditticoy hedge crawlers. They are the lowest of the lowest, and they will not associate, nobody will associate with them at all. The ones around here... Śyāmasundara: The ones that have automobiles and... Guest: They're the Ditticoys. Harry: Right. They're our Ditticoys. But if you get any trouble with them, let me know. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Well, two came around here once when we first moved in saying that Mrs. Ruffles had promised them that they could paint the place. And we thought it was a little suspicious the way they were talking. And we watched them. They were looking mostly at the lead, I think, in the glass. Finally, we told them to get off and not come back. But, a little suspicious of... Harry: Umm. Yeah. This, if you do get them, let me know. 'Cause I'll soon warn them off. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Harry: I'll soon push them off. Unless, of course they want to come here as a visitor. Revatīnandana: They do steal sometimes, eh? Harry: Steal? Revatīnandana: Yeah. Harry: Oh yeah, they will do, oh yeah. They will do. Yeah. Prabhupāda: Their profession is stealing. Harry: Ah, but what'd you say then? Would you come and tell me they've stolen? You wouldn't, would you? Would you? Śyāmasundara: No. Harry: Would you tell then, would you come up and tell me that they've stolen? Śyāmasundara: Sure, if we saw them do it or something. Of course. Harry: You wouldn't charge them, though, would you? Or would you? Śyāmasundara: Eh? Revatīnandana: If necessary, we would. Śyāmasundara: Oh yeah. Harry: Well, that would be Kṛṣṇa's will, mercy. Guest (English Man): No, it depends, you know, if it's just some minor thing, you know. Śyāmasundara: (talking over) ...maliciously try to take our property or something valuable, we have to defend. Harry: Yeah. And how would you defend by? Yeah. (laughs) Yes, that's it, how would they defend? Revatīnandana: That's where you come in. (laughter) Harry: 'Cause that's right, you were the one who said that we could move in with a gun and shoot them, didn't you? Revatīnandana: No, I didn't say that. I'm the one who hit him with a big piece of wood. Yeah. Harry: Oh, you are? Well, they said they'd, "Why... Shoot them?" I said, "This is England, not America." (laughter) That was the cows, you know. Remember the cows? Śyāmasundara: Well, in America, we're used to shooting rustlers, you know. Harry: Yeah, but, uh... Śyāmasundara: String him off the nearest tree. Revatīnandana: Lynchings. Harry: But what are you going to do about your security? Can I talk to this about this, you know? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: I'd like to get an idea. Śyāmasundara: In the temple room? Harry: In the temples. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, well, gradually we'll be having a lot of jewelry and things. Harry: Yes, I know this. This is what's worrying me. Śyāmasundara: We have our ruby business here, as well. Harry: Yes, this is another thing that worries me. Yeah. Śyāmasundara: We have a nice safe down there, though, where they're all locked at night. Have you seen that safe, big huge safe, we built into the wall down stairs? Prabhupāda: Iron, iron safe? Śyāmasundara: Yes, Iron safe. Yes. Prabhupāda: Iron safe? Śyāmasundara: Oh yes. Heavy, thick doors, like this, all surrounded with cement around. It's very... Prabhupāda: We have kept two firearms in Māyāpura. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because nowadays there are dacoits. Śyāmasundara: Bandits. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Revatīnandana: This is in Bengal. Prabhupāda: So if we require, we can keep firearms. Harry: Hmm, hmm. Well, yeah. Guest: Prabhupāda says; "If you require it." Revatīnandana: (In background) ...necessary. Guest: We can keep firearms if we, you require it. Harry: (everybody talking at once) It wouldn't be, no, it wouldn't be... Śyāmasundara: ...really need it. Harry: No, no, no. Not if, unless it's absolutely necessary, but I doubt that... I would have to say that you want a firearm to kill vermin. Prabhupāda: We (laughs) are not interested in killing. Harry: No, Do you understand? Like rabbits or anything like that. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Revatīnandana: No, what he's saying is that if we wanted to keep a firearm, it would have to go down in the book that it is for killing animals; that is legitimate business here. Śyāmasundara: In order to get our license. Revatīnandana: Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to get a license for using it for defending the property. Śyāmasundara: Except that... Revatīnandana: We could put an alarm system in if we put jewels in the Deity room. Harry: Oh yes, yes, put an alarm in, yes. Śyāmasundara: This is England, after all, a civilized country. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Even in London, we haven't had need of..., haven't had much trouble. Harry: Well, no, but you see... Prabhupāda: In America also, I have seen... Harry: ...there are some people who... Prabhupāda: ...in counties , they keep open door. I was in Butler. Śyāmasundara: (everyone talking at once) Yes, especially in places like Pennsylvania. Revatīnandana: Motorcycle gangs, and... Harry: Yeah, well, you get some down here. Śyāmasundara: ...violence... Harry: Yeah. You do get burglars, you know, people who'll break in, housebreaking. Revatīnandana: Oh, you get housebreakers, eh? Harry: Oh, we get housebreakers. Oh yes. Śyāmasundara: Out here? Harry: Oh yes, out here. Oh yes. And when they do go, when they do go in, they, it is quite a lot of stuff they take. So... Śyāmasundara: There's nothing here for them to take. Harry: No, no, I know... You keep it like that. But the point is... Śyāmasundara: Except for the Deities. Around there, we'll have to have some alarm system perhaps. Harry: Uhh. Yes. And have this or a beam, a beam. Śyāmasundara: Photoelectric...? Harry: Yeah, photo... That's it, photoelectric. Now photoelectric cells. This is a very good thing because any movement and they are so timed that it won't operate with a fly. Śyāmasundara: Only with a big... Harry: A beam. So only with a human being. Which is quite of a good thing. Śyāmasundara: This is a type of alarm system which shines a light across the openings in the house so that if any person passes across the light, it will break the circuit and an alarm will go off. Harry: Ah, very nice. Śyāmasundara: So it's a very simple, but... Revatīnandana: That would have to be just in the Deities' room. 'Cause otherwise, we'd be tripping it all night long. Harry: Oh, no, these are... Revatīnandana: Open the windows at three in the morning like we did last night? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Revatīnandana: We'd get in trouble all the time. Harry: But that's the only thing... But if there's anything else that you, if you got...? I think, as I say, given time, a bit of experience. But I do feel that a lot of little things which you do in the temple, and I appreciate this, but I think that they, to try 'em outside until people accept. Revatīnandana: Yes. Harry: But, at the same time, I don't believe that you're going to change all your principles, are you, just to suit people outside? Revatīnandana: When we go outside, we can act accordingly. There's no... Harry: No, you do, don't you? There's only these little things, you know. To me, I mean, you come past me, my house, and if I'm out there, it makes no difference to me at all. And I don't suppose it makes any difference to a certain other people, but there's just that little bit of nuclear that, you know, will sort of catch on to it, as a, as a means to their own ends or to justify their rumors, I suppose. This is what I think. Well, anyway, we can sort out that as we go along. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Time heals all wounds. Harry: Ah yes, time... yeah. I dare say, I mean, possibly about next year, there may be something, someone else may have bought another house. So, so there'd be rumors about that. *Prabhupāda: In America, we are recognized by the police: We are well*-behaved, peaceful persons. Harry: Yes. Guest: In America, we are recognized by the police as peaceful persons. Harry: That's right. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Every Sunday, we want to have the neighbors come if they will. We will have every Sunday a feast here for everyone in the village. Harry: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Many people will come from the public on Sunday, but in particular, the neighbors are going to come. Harry: Well, Father Bernard... We had this... You had a meeting, hadn't you? With the Trust. Guest: Yes. Harry: This, now this trust, the Village Trust, the Village Trust, right? This is a good idea. Because you got a couple of dissenters are on the board there. You see. And so when they got the chairman, it's discussed properly, they will spread out... Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Harry: They will all say, "What you've said is a load of old hooey." You see. And this will be that. Śyāmasundara: The policy will be decided by them, more or less, won't it? Like how everyone should regard us, or...? Harry: Well, no... Guest: What he's saying... Harry: No, no, no. You're getting the wrong idea. You're getting the wrong idea. No, you're getting the wrong idea. No you're getting, you're gonna get the wrong idea. First of all, you've got your principles, you've got your independence. Same as I've got mine. Right? It is your place. This is your home. If I don't like the way you live, that's... I don't have to... I can either shut my eyes to it, but I don't have to turn away from you. Same as you may not like the way I live. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: So you'll have to accept my misgivings as or I'll have to accept your misgivings. But I'm not going to create a good impression... I'm not going to think, "Well, I mustn't do that because I'm going to upset Mrs. Smith. I'm mustn't do that because I'm going to upset Mr. Jones. And if I do that, I shall upset somebody else." I mean, if you're going to do that, then life is going to be a misery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: But the point is this, that if you just act as you are, and, if you don't mind me saying... These little things which come back to me, and thinking a bit logically, from a common sense point of view, I don't think it's necessary. But you can tell me to mind my own business. I'm not here to dictate to you. Now you must remember this. And the only time I should dictate to you is if you commit any offense outside the road where my jurisdiction starts, or there is a serious incident in the temple which I would have to come out and sort out. Now can you follow me? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually, we would appreciate if you would tell us these things, that the village people are thinking this, thinking that. If they're feeling unhappy about something, if it's something that we can change, let us know. Harry: Well, this is it. Look... But you can't do this... Rome wasn't built in a day. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot satisfy... Harry: You cannot satisfy everyone. Revatīnandana: No, but about our external behavior... Prabhupāda: That's not. We cannot change our policy. Harry: No. Revatīnandana: No. About our external behavior, things that they are finding bothersome... Like we are chanting loudly on the street or in the doctor's office. Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Revatīnandana: These kind of things, we want to know. See. Harry: Do you agree with that, Prabhupāda? Isn't it? Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda? Do you agree with that, though, that it was not necessary to, say chant continually out in a doctor's surgery or...? Prabhupāda: No. Harry: No. I don't think so. I mean I wouldn't go around in the road holding up my book which tells me about the law. You know what I mean. I would read my law inside my office if I'm not certain of it. Okay. These are the thing... But there again, if you want to, well, you do it... Revatīnandana: No. What he means is that if, whenever he hears of some incident, like the doctor's surgery, should he tell us or not? And I'm saying he should tell us so we'll know. And if it's nothing important, we can correct it easily. Prabhupāda: No, we should generally know that we may take pleasure chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa loudly. Others may not. Revatīnandana: Right. Prabhupāda: That is generally. So when you go others' place, we may not chant loudly, simply chant in such a way you can hear. That's all. Harry: Yeah, this'll do it. I mean, if you want to chant... Prabhupāda: You don't stop chanting. Harry: No! Prabhupāda: But that: (softly:) Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... I am hearing. That's all. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not that you have to advertise yourself, you are chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Harry: Because, you see, this is the thing. People say, "Oh, you know..." Because you know that they call me. You know what they say, don't you? Hare Kṛṣṇa on this side, and Harry Edwards on the other side. Revatīnandana: Oh, Harry on this side and Hare Kṛṣṇa on the other. Harry: Hare Kṛṣṇa on this side, and Harry Edwards on the other side, that's me. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: He lives across the road, you see. Harry: I live across the road. Śyāmasundara: So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa on this side and Harry Edwards on that side. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: His name is Harry Edwards. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Harry: My name is Harry Edwards. Śyāmasundara: So the people who are... Prabhupāda: A good name. Harry: Yes. Prabhupāda: By chanting your name... (laughter) Harry: Oh, there you are, there you are, yes. This is it. They are chanting my name, you know. Yeah. 'Cause when I ring up the station. Prabhupāda: So when somebody's disturbed, he can say, "I'm calling Mr. Harry."(laughter). Harry: You see, when I ring up the station in the morning, you see, say, "Ah, Hare Kṛṣṇa." I say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa to you." (laughter) So I mean some way or other, you're doing what you're asking to do, aren't you? Psychologically. Śyāmasundara: Everyone's being forced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Harry: Yeah... But I think these, you know, and I know, of course, you know, I've... Prabhupāda: The people chant Hare Kṛṣṇa by seeing us. Yes. All over the world. Harry: Yes. They say to me, Harry Edwards, you see, or Hare... Śyāmasundara: Yes. Harry: So therefore, really and truly, if you look at it psychologically, you've achieved your object without them knowing. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Yes. Harry: Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Yes, this is why we dress this way. Every time we go on the street, everybody on the street says, "There's one of the Hare Kṛṣṇa people." He says "Hare Kṛṣṇa" one time. Harry: That's. Really. Yeah, yeah. But do you think...? I suppose... Well, it's like everything else. I suppose they would get used to it. Oh, I don't know. They say, if there's a problem... As far as we are concerned, as far as the police are concerned, we can find nothing wrong. You have done nothing wrong, nothing wrong. I mean, I don't know what you got, supposed to do, I don't know what you're supposed to do wrong anyway, but... But that's it, as far as we are concerned... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: We do have this liaison. You know, I must keep in liaison with you. So if I come over here, gentlemen, you must realize I am not here, I am not here for the purpose of, say, spying, if you may think this. I don't suppose you do? Śyāmasundara: You're welcome at any time. Harry: But this is the purpose, anyway... I don't know if I've got to, stay overstayed my welcome... Śyāmasundara: We feel very good when we see you here. We feel very pleased to see you on the grounds. Harry: Yes, oh, yes, yes. But don't forget, gentlemen, as I say, I, you must realize that I still have a job to do and if there was something in which you think I should report upon... Prabhupāda: Mr. Ha... (opening letter), you can read this letter, that so many people, they offered their place for our temple. Just now we have received this letter. One body is offering his... Śyāmasundara: Yeah. I brought that letter from London. It's from Guyana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: He wants to write you into his will or something, give some money. Prabhupāda: In India, also, there is that Bengali gentleman, he was offering two lands, one Agartala, and Agra. The people are still willing to cooperate with religious movement. Revatīnandana: Yeah, this place is also donated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: George is going to Portugal next month for reading and chanting. He's... Prabhupāda: Oh, Portugal? Śyāmasundara: Portugal is a country in Europe near Spain. Revatīnandana: Outside of Spain, Portugal? Prabhupāda: Portugal, yes. Śyāmasundara: It's quiet and sunny there. So he wants to go and chant and read. He's beginning to read *Kṛṣṇa Book* now. He said, "I've had it here so many years. I even wrote the foreword, but I've never read it. So now I began to read it." And he reads every day. He's into the Fourth Chapter now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and he says he's completely amazed by it, how wonderful it is, *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Harry: Very nice, yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: Really. *Prabhupāda: In Athens, we stopped for forty*-five minutes. The... I was going to Nairobi. So some young men by seeing us began to chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Harry: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everywhere we go, as soon as people see us, they say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal, when I was going on road, the children will chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." So it is now popular. Yes. Revatīnandana: Just last summer we were walking in... Was it St. James' park? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Around that pond. And one old bum was there on the park bench. He went by and stood up: "Hare Kṛṣṇa." (laughter) Harry: Yes, yes, well, you know. I think in some ways that you, to a certain extent, you must stuck to, in a common sense way, and also probably to the..., slightly to the Western ideas. You know? But these things, I have a lot of things... I think that the festival week has done a lot of good. There has been a lot of bad feeling, though they didn't know anything about it on Tuesday, did they? You had nearly a thousand people here on Tuesday. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's right. Harry: Nearly a thousand people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harry: But they didn't take any notice of that. On the Wednesday, was your birthday. You had the youth, or young, selected... Revatīnandana: No, that was on Friday, the young people's day was on Friday. Harry: No, no, no. On Wednesday. Guest: On Wednesday... Revatīnandana: There were young people here, but that was a... Harry: A special invitation... Revatīnandana: Yes, a special invitation party, yes. Harry: That's right, yes. I think that's when it was because the, the, the sound or the echo was going that way. But I didn't hear anything. And Inspector Turner, my instructor, came up. You saw me with an instructor who was in uniform like this, not in uniform, and we were quite satisfied. But, as I say, you can please some people, and others, you can never please. So with those people, I say, you'll just have to get on with it. That's all there is to it. Well, I think, I declare, I've taken up His Divine Grace's time enough. Prabhupāda: No. Harry: No? Prabhupāda: ...you are welcome. Harry: Well, that's all right, as long as you say so. But I have got to go soon. I've got some writing to do. Prabhupāda: All right. Harry: But if there's anything that you feel that you want to ask me or...? Prabhupāda: Certainly, when we are in difficulty, we must take shelter of you. What can we...? Harry: Beg your pardon...? (end) Room Conversation with British Man -- August 31, 1973, London Guest (1) (British man): ...wisdom was not of the Western order... Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): ...nor any means at all. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): And since it's so very rare that I have an opportunity of hearing such wisdom, I decided to be bold enough to seek more of what you've got to say. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughs) So, everything is stated in our books. You have seen all our books? Guest (1): I've only seen vaguely, but I will have a look of course. Prabhupāda: You can show all the books. Pradyumna: This is *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is second part. You have got the first part, second part is there? Pradyumna: This is *Kṛṣṇa Book* and *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Guest (1): [break] If I tell you how far I have been traveling, you will know into which coach to put me, yes? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): I have been seeking all my life, and I expect when I was about twenty*-two I became a convert from Judaism to the Christian Church. And of recent years, as a result of a very serious illness, a heart attack, I began to get other experiences which took me right away from all this knowledge, but no wisdom. I gathered a lot of knowledge, to the extent that I was, well, I was getting nowhere. I knew all about God, but didn't know what He, who He was. I knew all about Him though. Then I was led to understand a lot of other things which did not come by reading. I couldn't tell you. They just came. Thoughts, from wherever they were, they came. So I am now currently at the stage where I acknowledge that the certainty of this world isn't worth knowing about. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): We've got to live here of course. It seems to me almost daily that the next processes in life are the much more interesting and exciting ones. But when I hear you speak of Bhagavad*-gītā and so on, I know nothing about these people. So now where do I start? *Prabhupāda: You have to start from Bhagavad*-gītā. Guest (1): That's this one. *Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, we have to understand what is that force which is moving this body. Then we come to the spiritual platform. As you understand, the nature of the soul, that is very elaborately explained in different way, negative, positive way, what is the soul. This morning, every morning I speak on this Bhagavad*-gītā, if you find time you can come. At quarter past seven, I'm beginning, for one hour. Guest (1): Now for, that is for Saturday and Sunday? Prabhupāda: No, every day. Guest (1): Every day. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Right, I will do something about it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So... We... This is the first step of spiritual understanding. That one must know that he's not this body. Actually anyone can understand. It is a very simple thing. I'm not this body because I had many types of body, in this life also, a child's body, a baby's body, boy's body, youth's body. Now we have got different body. So the body's changing. That's a fact. The child, you do not possess any more that, your childhood body. It is gone. Your boyhood body*-gone, your youth-hood body-gone. Now you have got a different body. So although the bodies are not existing, you are existing. That's a fact. Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, the conclusion should be that body may change or may not remain, but the soul is eternal. Therefore, the next body means when this body will be useless... I am old man, you are also getting old. What is your age now? What is your age now? *Guest (1): My age? I'm fifty*-six. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-six. I am seventy-eight. I may be of your father's age. Guest (1): We are both still boys aren't we? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Spiritually we are young. The body's getting old. Just like your garment, your shirt and coat. It may be torn, but you are not torn. These things are all explained very nicely. Guest (1): I shall read them. Prabhupāda: So, in this way, as soon as we understand or become convinced that I am not this body, then spiritual education begins. (If) I am different, then the next question will be, then what for I am working? Naturally at the present moment we are working for this body, maintenance of the body. For eating, sleeping, having facility for sex life or sense gratification and to protect this body from being harmed. This is our business. But if I am not this body, then, I am spirit soul, then the next question will be, what I am doing for the spirit soul? When actually I am working for this body because I, spirit soul, is within this body. Just like we are keeping this room fit for habitation because I am living here. Three months or four months ago we are not in possession of this room. So we were not anxious about this room. Because we were not living. So actually I am keeping my body fit, nice, just to live within this body. Therefore actually I do not love this body, I love myself. And to keep myself in a nice position, I love this room or this house. My main business is to get me, as I am, comfortable. Not that it is my business to keep this house neat and clean only. No. No, my business is to keep myself fit. So actually I love my soul. Then if you analyze, studying your soul, what is the constitution, you'll find the soul is part and parcel of God. Then you come to the platform that you love the soul because you love God. The ultimate issue is God. As you love this body because you love the soul, similarly you love the soul because you love God. And that is now lost. We are embarrassed in the affairs of loving this body. The background we have forgotten. This is our present stage. Therefore we are in confusion. There is no satisfaction. Guest (1): May I ask please...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): I do believe very firmly that my soul is immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Not that it will go on, but that it always has been. So far as I can understand. Now, because of my personal experience of the teaching and love of Jesus Christ, I know that he died so that those particularly in his time, and for all time, should live. Now if I believe that I am immortal, what does his saying really mean that I haven't quite understood. If he said that he died for me, that I might live, and if in fact I believe that I live anyway, what does it mean? Can you tell me? Prabhupāda: Christ? Haṁsadūta: What does it mean that Christ died for us, in order that we may live. Or in other words, died for our sins. He wants to know, because he's going to live anyway, he's eternal anyway, what is the meaning of that statement? What is the meaning? Prabhupāda: So far I understand, the Christians give explanation that Christ took the resultant action of sinful life of everyone and he condoned by his giving his own life. Is that not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. It is. Prabhupāda: So... *Haṁsadūta: But I think the idea is that on one condition, that the people, anyone who is Christian, they agree to follow his commandment, his order, which is so many things*-thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery-on that condition, he gave his life in the service of God on this condition, to teach this message. Anyone who would accept him, they would become free from sin... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: ...if they accept his teaching, that is the meaning of the statement. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guest (1): Well now, see, what does honestly bother me is, I believe that because there is a spirituality about his message that I have not seen all these years. Is the immortality that he has offered, for instance, me... I must talk in the first person. Is it a universal thing that's happened all through time or is it something that belongs to just when he died? Prabhupāda: No, universal things are also eternal. Everything, the nature. Nature is also eternal. Guest (1): I see. Right, I'm beginning to understand that. Another thing I would like to know very much is that I feel, but have no proof, that I have experienced in my, in the things I do, which lead me to believe that my experiences based on a memory I don't understand which, which belongs to previous lifetimes. Now is that, a fa...? Prabhupāda: Yes, previous life there was. Just like previously, you were a child. Previously, you were a boy. Previously you were a young man. So similarly, we had previous life. Previous life means not exactly in this body but another body. But I am eternal. I live either in this body or in another body. Just like I'm a person, I live in this apartment or any other apartment. The apartment may change, but the person who lives in the apartment, he does not change. Similarly, I am spirit soul. I am simply changing different apartments. But there is a life, because I am eternal, where I haven't got to change apartment. I get permanent residence. Guest (1): I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching. That is spiritual life. That you act in such a way that you haven't got to change any more apartment. Suppose, take for example, we were living in rented house. Now George has given us this house. Now we haven't got to change. It is a crude example. We can live until our death. Similarly, so long you are in material existence, you have to change this body, different types of body. But if you become fit for spiritual existence, you get rid or get out of this entanglement of changing bodies. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching our people that "you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Live like that." (someone comes in) Come on. "Then you get permanent life." Guest (1): And now, you did... Prabhupāda: You can find out that verse, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya, yes [Bg. 4.9]. I'll read one verse. You'll understand. Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9], Fourth Chapter. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the 6th verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve-merging into the impersonal brahmajyoti of the Lord*-is only partial, and there is the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas: eko devo nitya-līlānurakto bhakta-vyāpī hṛdy antarātmā. 'The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the Gītā personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the Vedas and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation." *Guest (1): Yes, I understood all that. Also, whilst listening, I could quite see that you gain a freedom through grace, and don't have to come back here again, and then I thought that you personally must have come back here because you wanted to. Because you had a job to do perhaps. Well, obviously*-not perhaps. Prabhupāda: Come back? Pradyumna: He said that you must have come back here because you had a job to do. Guest (1): You see you, if you were freed in your previous time and did not have to come back, it does occur to me that you have come back because you have a job to do. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also, just like, Kṛṣṇa comes. Similarly Kṛṣṇa's son, God's son, sometimes He comes. Sometimes Kṛṣṇa's great devotee, servant, he comes because the spiritual enlightenment to the fallen souls, that is required. So in the human society, when the living entity gets the chance of having this human form of life, he has got the facility to understand his position, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. So that facility is offered by God, by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, we have got these books. We have got spiritual master, we have got ācāryas. Just to enlighten these fallen souls to go back to home, back to Godhead. Guest (1): Now you did say, I think you did just tell me earlier, that I think you said Kṛṣṇa or somebody last came five hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: No, Lord Caitanya. Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. He is Kṛṣṇa, He came as Kṛṣṇa's devotee. Guest (1): I see, and that was five hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Is it...? Do you expect Him to come again? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not very soon. Guest (1): Not very soon. Prabhupāda: No. That is mentioned in the scriptures, that at the end of this millennium, this yuga, Kalki avatāra will come. Kalki avatāra. *Guest (1): Now, because I am only versed in the Western sense of the old and new Testament, I understand that Christ is coming again at the end of this non*-believing age in the world. Does that coincide with the son of God that you understand or is that a different sort of coming? Prabhupāda: No,... Haṁsadūta: Actually in the Bible there's, someone mentions there the description that the Lord will come and He will ride on a white steed, on a white horse. And at that time he will kill all the nondevotee people. It's also in the Bible. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So this Kalki, this incarnation of Kṛṣṇa which comes at the end of this age, He's described, He will come and ride on a white horse all over the world, and He will..., Prabhupāda: Kill. Haṁsadūta: Kill. Because at that time the people will be so degraded, they will not be able to accept any instructions. So the only mercy He can bestow on them is just to finish the whole business. And by that killing in the presence of the Lord they also achieve salvation. This is the mercy of God. Absolute. Guest (1): Yes. That, in some way, to me at this moment, it seems to be an echo of the Old Testament prophetic promises of the end of the last age and also the revelation in the New Testament. Can this be the son of God revealing Himself to the East and the West in different forms but the same personality? I'm presuming that... Haṁsadūta: God is meant for everybody. Doesn't matter East or West. Just like Kṛṣṇa appeared in India, but we are not Indians. We are all Americans and Europeans, so... Just like the sun. The sun may appear over London or England, but it's not English sun. Everyone's sun. Similarly, when God appears or God's representative appears, it's meant for everyone. Guest (1): Yes. So, forgive me if I talk across you, please, won't you. Prabhupāda: That's all right, yes. Guest (1): Yes. So now, thinking on the terms that you have just quoted me, if I as a Jew, as a born Jew, seeing also with Christian conviction that according to the Old and New Testament, this Christ will come again in a latter day, and as a Jew particularly I was taught to believe that He's coming to save the Jews in their land when they're besieged. But I, of course I've always understood anyway that all nations will see Him for their own particular reasons but it will still be that one coming, and whilst he may come to, shall we say, the Jewish Jerusalem, He will obviously be going to everybody else's place at the same time. I think. If place and time exists then, that's the whole... Haṁsadūta: Well, the whole thing is that we can't speculate on God. We simply have to accept the authoritative statements of scripture. Guest (1): Yes. *Haṁsadūta: Just like if we see, just like suppose President Nixon, it's announced: "Mr. Nixon is coming July 7th 1974 to London." So this is an authoritative statement so we accept it. We don't speculate, maybe he comes in August, or what he's going to do. So similarly God is so great, He can make a program over thousands and thousands of years. For instance, this Bhāgavatam, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, was compiled five thousand years ago, and in the Bhāgavatam the appearance of Buddha is foretold, who appeared two thousand, four hundred years after that book was compiled. And Caitanya is..., that is five thousand years later. And Kalki avatāra is yet to come four hundred thousand years from now. So God is so great that He can give His program so many thousands of years in advance and we simply should accept it on that basis. We shouldn't speculate any further. Guest (1): Fair enough. Haṁsadūta: Whatever is given there in the śāstra, in the scripture, we should accept it as perfect, that's all. That is our position. We should just accept the perfect. Guest (1): Unquestioning. Haṁsadūta: Yes, without, not without questioning, if there is some, but not with speculation or challenging. Guest (1): I didn't mean to speculate, I'm sure you appreciate that. I just am wondering whether the smallness of my perception in seeing Him coming for almost a national purpose whereas in fact He's coming for an international..., Haṁsadūta: A spiritual purpose, beyond even international, spiritual. Because on the spiritual platform the nation is one, God's nation. Guest (1): Well for instance today, this evening, I have found that what I have always heard of as Kṛṣṇa is your term for God isn't it? *Haṁsadūta: Yes. God has many names but the chief name, best name, is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means the all*-attractive. He attracts everyone. Guest (1): Yes. Now in speaking some while ago to some Muslims, they were saying that there is only one God and Allah is His name. Now...? Haṁsadūta: Yes, that's a fact. God is one. But because He's the supreme, His names are many. Guest (1): Many, right, lovely. Haṁsadūta: Just like you have two or three names. You children call you "Daddy," your wife is calling you by some name, the boss calls you by another name, the neighbors by another name. So we are ordinary, we have already three, four names. God has millions of names. But He is one. Guest (1): That's a very helpful expression, thank you very much. *Haṁsadūta: And similarly religion is one. Because God is one, His religion, because religion means law of God. Whatever He speaks, it must be the same everywhere. Either in the Bible, Koran or the Bhagavad*-gītā. Unfortunately we are making so many differentiations or distinctions or contradictions. But actually on principle, there is only one religion. If we actually understand religion, the word of God, law of God, there can't be two religions. Just like mathematics is one. Guest (1): I do feel that. It's because I do feel that so very strongly, I cannot feel impelled to give allegiance to any sect at all. It's repugnant to me. Haṁsadūta: Sectarianism is the great enemy of... Guest (1): It is, it's a dreadful thing. *Prabhupāda: From practical life, just like world's principal religion, Christianism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Mohammedanism also, the principle of not killing is there, every religion. Buddhism, they're completely for not killing. No circumstances, at any circumstances killing is not allowed. Similarly, in Vedic religion, killing is not allowed, but at circumstances, it is allowed. Similarly Christianity, they also say, "Thou shall not kill." Mohammedans also, they allow killing, but circumstantially. So the principle of killing is forbidden every religion, every religion. So the principle of religion is one. Take for example, in every religion there is acceptance of God and religion means to abide by the order of God. So how there can be two religions? There cannot be two religions. "I believe like that, we believe like that." These are man*-made. But actual religion is that God is one and religion means the orders, the law given by God. That's all. Simple definition. Just like state is one, government is one, and to become good citizen means to abide by the laws of the government. That's all. Those, one who is abiding by the laws of God, he is perfect religionist. It doesn't matter whether he's a Hindu, he's a Muslim or a Christian. Whether he has got proper sense what is meant by God and what is the order of God. Then he is religionist, perfect religionist. Guest (1): I understand I think most of what you have said. I will definitely come to some of your morning lectures and I believe I must read one of these books too. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can read... Guest (1): To know a bit more. So next time I come and see, I shall be smiling a bit more. Prabhupāda: All right. (laughs) Guest (1): Thank you, very, very much. And now perhaps you can guide me and tell me what to do, which one, you know, that I ought to be concerned with? Pradyumna: Yes. Guest (1): And I will take my leave of the master, yes. Thank you very much. *Prabhupāda: You can, he wants Bhagavad*-gītā? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read. Guest (1): Thank you very, very much. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Thanks for your coming. Pradyumna: Take a sweet. Guest (1): Certainly. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Guest (2) (girl): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down here. Take this pad, comfortable seat. Guest (2): I know that our bodies are not eternal, and we have to leave them, and some are made male bodies and some are made female bodies. But our spirits, our souls, are there any difference? Prabhupāda: No. As spirit soul there is no difference. Bodily difference is material. Guest (2): Why is there a bodily difference? Prabhupāda: Because you desired a body like that. God is so kind, Kṛṣṇa is so kind, whatever you desire, He fulfills. So this fulfillment requires a certain condition. So the body is conditional. Guest (2): I don't know enough to ask you any questions, but I'm very happy to be here. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to understand? Guest (2): No, no. Haṁsadūta: She says she doesn't know enough to ask you any more questions but she's very happy to talk with you. Guest (2): I think the devotees inspiring me a little. (end) Room Conversation -- September 1, 1973, London Prabhupāda: That there is no brain behind this creation. How foolish they are. There is no brain in this artistic work. And how wonderfully, because it is automatically coming, artist. Anything, you take flower. So, without brain how this thing can happen? But these rascals they do not understand. They say nature. What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, but the brain is God. Just like you paint a flower with the brush. The brush is not the creator of that painting, you are creating. Similarly, it appears that it is happening naturally. Nature is only brush, but the brain is God. Guest: Yet no two are the same, are they? Prabhupāda: Eh. Guest: They are not the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties. Everything is variety. Everything is variety, full of varieties. We find the same species of rose. Still, you'll find varieties. In human, twin brothers you will find still varieties. Guest: And in Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties? Are there still varieties in Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana? Śrutakīrti: Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties he said. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are varieties. Ānanda, ānanda, pleasure means varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. Without varieties, just like we prepare from grains, sugar, ghee, hundreds of varieties. If you simply give grain, ghee and sugar, it will not be enjoyable. But the same thing, you prepare in varieties and give you a plate, oh, you'll say, "Oh, so nice thing." The ingredients are the same. Grains, ghee and sugar, that's all. Similarly, this material world, the ingredients are the same. Namely five gross elements and three subtle elements, finer. Earth, water, air, fire, sky. These are gross elements. And mind, intelligence, ego these are finer elements. Combined together this material world has come. The brain behind is a living entity. Just like we are using these ingredients, these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, sky, making this building, making this table, making this chair, vase, so many things, harmonium, pictures, book. So the ingredients are the same, but my brain is working in different varieties. My brain or your brain. Human brain. Similarly this material cosmic manifestation is full of varieties. The brain behind it is Kṛṣṇa. That is stated, you have read our Bhagavad*-gītā? Guest: I've taken a look. Prabhupāda: There is a verse. Find out: Prabhupāda: Purport? Guest: Is modern science materialism, Prabhupāda? Is it materialism? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: All, all materialism? Prabhupāda: Just dealing with earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all. Guest: And in this time, modern science, you know, physics, chemistry, mathematics; is this all materialism? Prabhupāda: All materialism. Guest: All materialism. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual. Guest: And inside these people doing this work, is it Kṛṣṇa? Or what is it makes them do the work? *Prabhupāda: No. The soul is a living being. So nature is supplying material and he's molding in different forms. Just like earth is not man's creation. Earth is God's creation, or it is product of God's energy. But we are using this earth and molding in different forms, different pots, different dolls. So ingredients are supplied by God. Nature means God's energy. We simply handle them. We cannot produce anything, we transform only. Just like this iron, we cannot produce iron. It is gotten from the mine, iron bar. Now we have transformed into different forms. Because we have got creative energy like God, not very great, in very minute quantity. So as God has created by His intelligence, the whole universe*-we are creating this table, this pillow, this harmonium-that's all. What you are finding? Śrutakīrti: I was just looking at that verse again. Prabhupāda: Which verse? Śrutakīrti: Mayādhyakṣeṇa... Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: Because one man says one thing and one man says another thing. So many people have different things to say. Prabhupāda: No, personally. Suppose I ask you. What is your, you want to ask me? Haṁsadūta: You have, that letter has a return address from Maṇḍalībhadra? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is here. Now the water... Just like from your body, water is produced, is it not? Guest: Transformed? Prabhupāda: Transformed or whatever, but you see urine is coming, perspiration is coming. So these different waters are produced by your energy within the body. So why not from God's energy the vast water? Guest: Yes, truly. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: But why should he give us... Prabhupāda: Because God is unlimited, He has got unlimited energy. have got limited energy. I can pass urine, say one pound, I can have perspiration say, one ounce but if God likes He can produce unlimited water. Why this one Atlantic Ocean? Many millions of Atlantic Oceans He can produce. Water produced from His body. So where is the difficulty to understand? When Kṛṣṇa says that the elements... Other matters are growing. Just like the hair. Now, today, I have shaved. Three days after, again it will grow. So I have got my energy within by which I'm constantly growing. But, hair is a material thing. So anything you take, it grows from the Supreme. It is very easy to understand. Guest: Hmm. And ah, this inside, it grows because of Kṛṣṇa does it? Prabhupāda: Everything is growing on account of Kṛṣṇa. Your body, inside or outside, it is made of these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, like that. It is nothing but combination of these five elements. Guest: Is the water inside the same as the water in the ocean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: It's the same water. Prabhupāda: Yes. You... Have you tasted ever perspiration? Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Perspiration, have you tasted? Guest: Tasted it, yes, salt. Prabhupāda: Salt, yes. Guest: Ocean, yes. Prabhupāda: It has got. Guest: But one ocean is not the same as another eh? My business is mathematics. It's not very transcendental. Prabhupāda: You are teacher? Guest: No, not anymore. It's not very transcendental. Śrutakīrti: He's asking if his business is transcendental. Prabhupāda: No, if it is used for Kṛṣṇa, then it is transcendental. If it is used for your sense gratification, then it is material. That is the difference. Guest: Yes. And how do you know whether you're using it for Kṛṣṇa or not? Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires training from the Kṛṣṇa's representative, guru. Just like these boys are being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it requires little training. Just like you are mathematician. To make another student mathematician, you have to train him. You have to teach him how to calculate two plus two equal to four. It will never be five. If somebody says, "No, my calculation is two plus two equal to five." Will it be accepted? Guest: I'm afraid sometimes it can be true. (laughs) Prabhupāda: How it can be true? Guest: One plus one can equal three. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: One plus one can equal three sometimes. Prabhupāda: Is there mathematical calculation? Guest: I know that it's ah... I mean things reproduce. Life is not so fixed, not so rigid. But one does have to be trained, it's true. Training is, some people can understand and some people cannot understand. Prabhupāda: That is difference of understanding. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: The fact is true. But if I cannot understand, that is my misfortune. Guest: Yes. And if I can't understand what this is the end of the... So yes, it's the same. I think this is right. Prabhupāda: God is fact. But if somebody cannot understand, it is his misfortune. Guest: Yes. And another time, another place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: As you say, there are many oceans. The Christians say, "In my father's house are many mansions." A Chair. (indistinct) Good enough? Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down. Guest: This has come a long way from the Barrier Reef, the Pacific. These shells. The shells. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Guest: From the Pacific. From the Barrier Reef, Australia. You know the Barrier Reef? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Yes, that's where they come from, the Barrier Reef. Prabhupāda: I have seen the reef. Guest: You have? Prabhupāda: In Australia. Guest: Oh, yes. I would like to see that. The sea is wonderful, isn't it? You like the sea they tell me. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Very green, clear. Guest: Always a different color though. Always a little different isn't it? Prabhupāda: Well, reef I have seen. It is about, not less than two hundred feet. Guest: Really? They say under the water is beautiful, the light, and the color. Prabhupāda: They go under the water? *Guest: They go, yes, under the water, in skin*-diving. The coral, coral? Grows coral doesn't it? They say it's all, very beautiful. Jaya. Well, thank you, Prabhupāda, jaya. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda. Thank you. Śrutakīrti: Take a little sweet. Prabhupāda: What is your name? Guest: Peter. Prabhupāda: Peter, oh yes. Guest: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end) Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London Guest (1) (Indian man): ...Yes, yes. I ask him why, after such a long lapse of time we could see this trait of Hindu dharma. Prabhupāda.: Yes. Not Hindu dharma. Guest (1): Or Vedic dharma. Prabhupāda: ...but spiritual, satisfaction of spiritual starvation. Because we are spiritual beings. That I was trying to explain. That we have bodily necessities, at the same time we have spiritual necessities. This Western civilization, they are simply after the bodily necessities. Just like here is a qualified medical man. He's made... What for, medical man? He knows how to satisfy the medical necessities of the body. He has no information of the spirit soul. Is it not a fact? Have you got any idea what is spirit soul? Guest (2) (Indian Doctor): Not from the medical knowledge, certainly not. *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that these universities, educational institution, all over the world, they are simply concerned with this body. According to our Vedic culture, to remain satisfied with the bodily necessities of life is the business of animals. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Guest (1): What is God to a layman, like me. *Prabhupāda: Layman, well, layman means, we already explained, he's no better than animal. Because layman means one who thinks that "I am this body." He's layman. He has no other information. So layman is equal to animal. So layman's education, layman's advancement is decoration of the dead body. If you decorate a dead body, you can feel satisfaction. But others will laugh, that "What a fool he is, he's decorating a dead body?" Bhagavad*-bhakti-hīnasya jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ, aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. Layman's business is decorating this dead body, that's all. Guest (1): Yeah, but if you were to explain to him what is God, how would you explain to him. Prabhupāda: Then, suppose, what you are? What is your business? What do you do? You're teacher, what is the subject matter? Guest (1): I teach in law. Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible? Guest (1): No. *Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama*-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; *and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma*-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa. Guest (1): So in order to understand what is God one has to leave his family and come to some... Prabhupāda: Why do you surmise like that? You do not know what is God. Why do you surmise your proposal? Guest (1): No, I mean, ah... *Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama*-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma. This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama, he quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām. If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Śruti-gatām means hearing. Receiving from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. And in that way if he engages his body, his words, tanu-vāk, mind, then, although Lord Viṣṇu is Ajita, nobody can conquer Him, he can conquer. He can understand what is Viṣṇu, what is His function, what is my relationship with Him. All these things can be understood. Therefore we are propagating the same principle. We do not ask anyone: "First of all, you become brāhmaṇa. Then come here." No. Let him come and hear about Viṣṇu. We speak, discuss about Bhagavad-gītā. They hear. They hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You have seen our books? So these books are discussed and gradually... If it is a fact, śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, if one gives only aural reception to this transcendental message, then, although God is Ajita, nobody can conquer, He becomes conquered. So that is becoming, happening, that although they are American, European, Canadian, African, Australian, not all of them are Indian... Indians are also there. But because they are giving aural reception to this transcendental message, they are becoming enlightened. So anyone who will give aural reception to this message, first of all Bhagavad-gītā, entrance, then Bhāgavatam, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, like books, then gradually, he'll be self-realized, fully cognizant what is God. What is God, this is... athāto brahma jijñāsā means what is God. So this institution is meant for giving chance to everyone to hear. It doesn't require education. Simply God has given him this ear. Let him receive the message from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This is the process. Very simple process. Simply to hear, sincerely, then everything will be done gradually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By hearing, the mirror of consciousness, consciousness is just like a mirror. It is now covered with dust. Mārjanam. Mirror, if you cleanse with a duster, then you can see clearly what is your face. So by this chanting process and hearing, gradually the dirty things in the heart will be cleansed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa is puṇya, pious activities. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Either you hear or you chant. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. There are so many dirty things, nonsense things, within the heart. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi, vidhunoti, is washed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Who is...? Find out this verse. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. In the First Canto, first part, Third Chapter. Where is Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Call him. Śṛṇvatām, you can find out in the index. *Śrutakīrti: S*-i? *Prabhupāda: Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. *Śrutakīrti: S*-i-n? *Prabhupāda: R. Sva*-kathāḥ. Yes. What... *Śrutakīrti: Sva*-pathaḥ? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. You are not learning, only Paṇḍita Gosāñi is required. Where is Paṇḍita Gosāñi? Śrutakīrti: He went to... Guest (1): Can I have a look at it please? *Prabhupāda: Yes, give him. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi [SB 1.2.17]. (speaks some Bengali. Asks some Indians if they know Bengali, where they are from.) Śrutakīrti: It's not in the Third Chapter. Prabhupāda: Let me see. First Canto, where it is? *Śrutakīrti: S*-i? *Prabhupāda: S*-r. *Śrutakīrti: S*-r, śṛṇ, oh. *Prabhupāda: Śṛṇvatāṁ sva*-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. You could not find? Here it is. *Śrutakīrti: I was looking s*-i. Prabhupāda: Find out. Prabhupāda: Second Canto, no? Śrutakīrti: 107 Second Chapter. Prabhupāda: Second Chapter, Second Chapter, seventeenth verse, yes. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: Vidhunoti suhṛt satām. What is the meaning? Śrutakīrti: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted." *Prabhupāda: This is the process. If you hear about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa is within yourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. When he sees you are anxious, then he helps you in cleansing the dirty things within your heart. Purport read? Prabhupāda: The prescribed methods are there. We have to adopt it. Without adopting the prescribed method, nobody can advance. But in this age the prescribed method is very simple. Simply to hear the holy name of the Lord. Guest (2): I don't know actually. I'm a doc. I'm trying to find some answer but what difference does it make? Suppose a person thinks of God all his life and dies, and a person who doesn't think of God at all also dies. What is our life after death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Then why do we have to think of God? Why do we have to forget about the material world? Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that there is life after death. Guest (2): Why, is it a faith or belief? Prabhupāda: No, it is not faith, belief. It is a fact. Just like, I have already given you the example. You were a child. That body's no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. Therefore the conclusion is that although the body has changed, but you the soul, the knower, is still there. Therefore, when this body will be changed, you'll exist in another body. Guest (2): In what form? *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. First of all you have to accept this fact, that you have to change this body. As you have already changed so many times. Tathā... Kṛṣṇa first of all says tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Antara, another body you have to accept. Guest (2): Coming back to your own question of the present world and to what we are in... Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): Coming back to your first question when you asked that what do you think about this present world or the present trend of present civilization...? Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know. Even big, big professors. I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He said, "Swamiji, after annihilation of this body, there is nothing." *Guest (2): Well, that has brought this disaster and is causing more and more trouble, I think. More and more in practice of medicine, if we look into the practice of medicine, I think, we are more pressed with the problem of mental illness. I should say in the region of thirty percent of our time is devoted for people suffering from mental anxiety, which we call "anxiety state" and partly depression. I think most of the time, I surmise... Part of the problem is not that they are not well*-fed, it is not that they are not well-dressed. Part of the problem is to accept as they are and to think of something which is present, I mean they could believe that there is something beyond this world, and if they can accept that, probably they will be better off and they will accept their present inconveniences more easily and will not be depressed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): And that is the present problem. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ *Prabhupāda: That is, that is next question, that you have to accept next body, but what kind of body you'll have? That you can see, that there are so many varieties of life, body. You have to accept one of them. Just like when you were admitted into school for education. The idea was that you'll be educated, and according to your education, there are so many posts you'll have to occupy. Just like you are lawyer, he's medical man, somebody's engineer, somebody else, somebody... Varieties or field of activities. So according to the perfection of one's education, he has to accept one post like that. Similarly, next body means according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. You are preparing your next Life. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: Guest (2): Yes. Can you scientifically prove this, sir? I mean is it purely a matter of belief or... *Prabhupāda: This is science. Our science is perfect science. Because we are receiving knowledge from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. And the so*-called science is imperfect because the knowledge is received from imperfect person. However great scientist you may be, you have to admit that your senses are imperfect. Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: So imperfect senses can give imperfect knowledge. That is not scientific knowledge. What you are thinking scientific knowledge, that is bogus. Because the man who has given that knowledge, he's imperfect. How you can expect perfect knowledge from the imperfect person? Guest (2): It's a question of degree. Prabhupāda: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you? Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...? *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative. One who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect. Guest (2): So the question of belief comes first. Prabhupāda: It is not belief, it is fact. Guest (2): Yes, but if you say fact, how do you prove? Prabhupāda: This is proof, Kṛṣṇa says. Guest (2): It has been said by Kṛṣṇa. Yes, but..., *Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth*-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. This material, eight kinds of materials-earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego. Do you think so? That there is another body made of mind, intelligence and ego? Guest (2): Not, not in that sense. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind is there. Everyone knows, you have got mind, I have got mind. But can you see the mind? Can you see the intelligence? Guest (1): These are something abstract, you know. Prabhupāda: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see. Guest (1): Well, at present, we can, we have got three different methods of studying intelligence starting from six months onward up to the adult. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind. Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing? *Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Guest (4) (English woman): Could I ask please, if prāṇa is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prāṇa is the life force, isn't it? Pradyumna: Says like prāṇa is the life force. Guest (4): Is it in different parts of the body? Prabhupāda: These are air. Prāṇa, in the prāṇa, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called prāṇāyāma. That is yogic process. Guest (4): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Prāṇa is a life air which carries the soul. It is very small, atomic. And not our men. Give her. She's answered. (laughs) Give her one. Guest (4): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Give her one, that girl. Give all. (Bengali) You are a lawyer. (Bengali) That is not your business. You must know it. Guest (3): (Bengali) Prabhupāda: That's a good qualification. Guest (3): No. *Prabhupāda: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na... [Bg. 2.13], dhīraḥ, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right." Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me. Prabhupāda: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic. Guest (2): I won't say that, but I'm not mentally prepared to that extent. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you are not prepared, then you learn how to become prepared. Then the same conclusion comes, that logic, you can give to the animals, but he cannot take it. Guest (2): I don't think that logic can explain anything. Prabhupāda: No, logic cannot. But still as much logic you require, that logic is there. Guest (2): Yes, but I don't know what Mr. Howard wants logic about, I don't know. But logic cannot explain anything and everything. And if mathematics or arithmetic, if we go through them, at one stage we can prove ten is equal to zero or nine is equal to zero. It is also possible by step by step... Prabhupāda: That may be possible, but it has no practical use. It has no practical use. If the banker gives you zero and you accept nine, then it is practical. But if you theoretically say all these things, that you may keep it in your pocket, but practically it has no use. Nine equal to zero and two equal to zero. That is not practical use. Guest (2): As far as logic, I don't think logic can explain anything and everything. Prabhupāda: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji? Guest (1): Mr. Howler. (?) Prabhupāda: Howler? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic, That's all. Authority. Is it not? Guest (1): Yes, that's true. *Prabhupāda: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority. Śabda*-pramāṇa. The best evidence. Śabda-pramāṇa. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramāṇa, śabda-pramāṇa is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya. Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles. Prabhupāda: Very good. Mukunda: And she wants to become initiated. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Pearl: I would like to have a Sanskrit name too please. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you'll have. Pearl: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: You'll have. You like to be bald*-headed? Pearl: (laughs) No, I think I'll keep my hair if you don't mind. I can't give up everything. Prabhupāda: All right. Pearl: If my leg could be healed, and I want to advance spiritually. Prabhupāda: Well, leg, you are different from leg. Yes. Even leg is not healed, you can be healed. Pearl: You mean healed spiritually. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real healing. Pearl: Because it's keeping me from things I should be doing you see. I can't meet all my responsibilities through it. Prabhupāda: Give me little water. When they come to logic, when they give logic. (laughter) Guest (1): Prabhupāda, they don't want any. Prabhupāda: That is the dog's obstinacy. That is the mentality. Guest (1): They lost their intelligence, by this civilization or by this culture. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Adānta*-gobhir, by losing that intelligence they are going to the hell. They do not know it. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By uncontrolled senses... Because as soon as they come to spiritual life, they have to control senses. So that they do not like. That is very difficult. Guest (1): Like he said: "I'm not prepared for that." Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually they are not prepared. Then you suffer. Guest (1): Then you try to be prepared. Prabhupāda: They are not prepared because as soon as they understand that they are going to be one these varieties of life, they shudder. Therefore they do not like to understand this. If by logic I prove that you are going to be a dog next life, that is very difficult. Just like one astrologer has said that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Sweden. You know that? Guest (1): No, I don't. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Delhi, one astrologer. Guest (1): Delhi, some astrologer said? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): What does the government of India say about that, any comment? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. Guest (1): Are they going to worship there? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gītā was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. What do you think, Bhadra Kṛṣṇa? The dehāntara-prāptiḥ, do they understand? Bhadra Kṛṣṇa: It's not something known. Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not understand. *Guest (1): (Bengali) Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad*-gītā. But how the name of Rāma has come when he died? The name of Rāma, Hare Rāma, has come from his last word. How it has come. It is, it is... Prabhupāda: Practice, practice. Raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. Guest (1): So that came at the last word. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): It is due to his pious or practice. Prabhupāda: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act. Guest (1): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but..., *Prabhupāda: No. He did not know. But because he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma, that has given him this effect, yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Mohammedan. He said "hā rāma." He wanted to speak "hārāma," but it become "hā rāma." That is the... He did not know anything about Rāma, but the name Rāma is so powerful that although he said, "hārāma," it effected. Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad*-gītā, but as he chanted "hā rāma," that has been effective. Pearl: I wondered what "Rāma" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rāma, you see. Prabhupāda: Rāma means... Guest (3): So it was not due to his pious activities, but only he was practicing. Prabhupāda: No, that is pious activity, that is pious activity. Guest (1): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rāma, raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. Prabhupāda: He was a pious man. Guest (1): He was pious man. Prabhupāda: Undoubtedly. Guest (1): So he chanted "Rāma" in practice. Prabhupāda: Daily he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. So..., Guest (3): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting... Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rāma. Guest (1): (laughs) No. *Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rāma, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rāma is a fact, Kṛṣṇa is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rāma, glories of Kṛṣṇa. He took the chanting of Rāma for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nāma*-aparādha. Samaḥ śubha-kriyā mati pramāṇaḥ (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rāma. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world. Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time..., Prabhupāda: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what... Guest (1): But not political post. Prabhupāda: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rāma, that he did not. He took it, "Rāma" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rāma." So... Guest (1): So you think he has gone to heaven or some, what is his position? Prabhupāda: No... But because he did not understand Rāma, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position. Guest (1): High position. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet Guest (1): Still in the material world. Śrutakīrti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world. *Prabhupāda: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahmā. But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain. That is explained in the, find out that verse. That is explained in the...um. That verse, yoga*-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. But he did not understand Bhagavad-gītā, that's a fact. Guest (1): But what about this position of Vālmīki or *Rāmāyaṇa*? Prabhupāda: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rāma. Guest (1): They knew. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not in vague understanding. Guest (1): They wouldn't be able to write *Rāmāyaṇa* if he didn't understand Lord Rāmacandra? Prabhupāda: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years. Guest (1): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kurukṣetra is this body, five Pāṇḍavas is the five senses and this is all interpretation concoction. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand. It doesn't matter. Guest (1): The name is so powerful. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? *Pradyumna: Prāpya puṇya*-kṛtāṁ lokān. *Prabhupāda: Ah, prāpya puṇya*-kṛtāṁ lokān. This is the... So puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān means heavenly planet. Prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is that, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān? Pradyumna: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ [Bg. 6.41]. Prabhupāda: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. For a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way ten thousand years. Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. What is it? Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ? *Pradyumna: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. *Prabhupāda: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich, vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: [Bg. 4.9] You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa*-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets. Ākāśa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoḍā-ḍima. Ghoḍa-ḍima. Ḍima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is. Guest (1): Hawaikila (?). Prabhupāda: Hawaikila, yes. Hawaikila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like, the Vaiṣṇava considers the heavenly planets, that hawaikila. That's all. *Guest (1): This rich birth is important for self*-realization? Prabhupāda: Next birth? Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Māyā dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine*-woman." That's all. Guest (1): People say about Uraya Karan Singh... Prabhupāda: Karan Singh? Guest (1): ...of Kashmir, he's a very pious man, and because rich birth and he is a pious as well, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Very religious and... Prabhupāda: No, I have seen him. He's religious temperament. Not very. He loves Kṛṣṇa. No, he's a good man. Guest (1): That's a good example, example like that. *Guest (1): Likes the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's a good man. He's good scholar also, educated. Guest (1): He was coming but I don't know why he has not come due to this...? This last year hearing *Bhāgavatam* discourses he accepted he would come come. We got his letter also. Prabhupāda: This is due to government post. Guest (1): And he also accepted an invitation, we invited him, He said he'd also come, but this Pakistan war started. *Prabhupāda: Still there are so many respectable person came. The governor came, the high*-court justices and that, the Canadian ambassador came. Many men came. And he was very humble. He sat down below. Guest (1): You didn't see the high commissioner there. He sat down. Prabhupāda: He's also a very nice man. Guest (1): Maybe some pious activities that they have. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): But this is their duty to respect. Prabhupāda: [break] ...in this planet. In order to be elevated to the kingdom of God, they cannot go directly from the heavenly planet. They'll have to come here. Guest (1): There are many stories in *Mahābhārata*. Many, many kings, they went to heavenly planets and from there. Many stories. *Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye martya*-lokaṁ viśanti [Bg. 9.21]. You have got prasāda? Not yet. Come on. Any more? Any more? Another? Come on. (end) Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, Dr. Suneson -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm Prabhupāda: What else? Śrutakīrti: The vegetable. Prabhupāda: What type vegetable? Śrutakīrti: Cauliflower and peas and everything. Prabhupāda: Oh, they have got cauliflower? Śrutakīrti: Yes, they have cauliflower and tomatoes. Prabhupāda: So you can give also two parāṭās to me. Śrutakīrti: Now, you mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. And milk, you have got? Śrutakīrti: Yes. They have got. I think there's one other guest coming, isn't there. Pradyumna: Is the professor coming? Devotee: He was supposed to come a half an hour ago. Śrutakīrti: There was a guest who was supposed to be here one half hour ago. Pradyumna: He's a little late. Śrutakīrti: So I'll bring it down. [break] Prabhupāda: These are our books. You have seen? Professor: Yes, sir, I've seen... Some of them, I've seen. This one in particular I have seen. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are... This is Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. There are sixty volumes, books like this. Professor: Sixty volumes like this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty volumes. And you can see how we are doing Sanskrit. Professor: Transliteration. Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration and word meaning, then translation, then purport. Professor: Yes, I've studied the text myself. Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: I've studied the text myself. Prabhupāda: I see. You have studied? How do you like it? Professor: Yes, I like it very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Professor: I'm very interested in the bhakti. Prabhupāda: Which one you have studied? Professor: Oh, well, I haven't read all of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, but of course, this Tenth Chapter I read. Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto? Professor: Yes, the Tenth Canto I read. And other parts, other parts also. Prabhupāda: Oh. We have begun from the First Canto, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. You show him the verse, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is First. Pradyumna: First Volume. Professor: Yes. Pradyumna: After introduction. Professor: Yes, yes, it's... *Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye... [SB 1.1.1]. Like that. Professor: You belong to the Caitanya...? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have translated Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Professor: Oh? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is one chapter, only, sample. Professor: In the Bengali script. That's good. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in... Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is in Bengali. Professor: I've read also, I've read parts of that also. Prabhupāda: Caitanya... Original Bengali? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you know Bengali? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. Professor: Yes. Sanskrit and Hindi and Bengali and Tamil. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, that's nice. Professor: So I read lot of the Tamil bhakti scriptures. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Professor: The Alwars and the Nayanas. Prabhupāda: I see. Just a..., immediately he came, Dāmodara, the Ambassador. He came just now. Professor: Yes. Oh, he came just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: He has left now? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, Ambassador Dāmodara. He was... Just prior to your coming, he was also meeting with Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just a half and hour before, he was here. Professor: I see, I see. I know him well. Prabhupāda: He's coming from Malayalam. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we can see, you can see how we have done. *Professor: Do you recite this also, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor: Do you think you could do a little? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: I would be very interested. Pradyumna: Glasses. Prabhupāda: Yes. Shall I read? You want? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: All right. (pause) This is... Professor: If you could read some of the Bengali part. Of course, in the beginning there are some Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Only one verse. Professor: Some Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: But the pure Bengali. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Or shall I explain? Professor: Oh, well, I understand. Prabhupāda: All right. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: (Chants many verses from Ādi 1.7 in Bengali) ...kāśīra māyāvādī. You know kāśīra māyāvādī? Professor: Yes. Yes, a little. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana yāite prabhu... (continues chanting) ...vasilā sei sthāne. You want to hear more? Professor: No, thank you. Prabhupāda: So, in this way, we have given Sanskrit, here, the transliteration. Just like Professor: Hm. How many volumes is this one, when it's complete? Prabhupāda: This is only one chapter. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you know how many chapters there are. How many chapters? Pradyumna: Seventeen in the first part, about twenty something in the second part... Professor: Second part. Pradyumna: Thirty something in Third Part. Professor: Yes, about sixty altogether. A little more than sixty. Prabhupāda: So how many, all...? Sixty. *Professor: Sixty, sixty*-five... Prabhupāda: So, at least, fifty volumes like this. Professor: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So why don't you introduce in your university? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: You see. Professor: Yes, yes. I like myself also to acquire this one. Prabhupāda: Yes. You see how we have translated. I have given transliteration and word to word meaning. You are scholar, you can understand. So we want to introduce this literature in the Universities. Professor: Hm, Hm, yes... Prabhupāda: Everything, you can see. *Professor: Have you translated also the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Professor: All of it...? Or... Prabhupāda: Yes, all of it. *Nectar of Devotion*. Paramahaṁsa: Do you have, *Nectar of Devotion*? *Professor: And also this Ujjvala*-nīlamaṇi. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Professor: Ujjvala*-nīlamaṇi? *Prabhupāda: Ujjvala*-nīlamaṇi. No, Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi is not for general study. Professor: No, it's... *Prabhupāda: It is, it is for high, advanced devotee. You have seen our Bhagavad*-gītā? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just down. You can see. Paramahaṁsa: Dr. Suneson is also a friend of Dr. Bernhart and Dr. Stahl, Prof. Stahl in Berkeley. Prabhupāda: Oh. Professor: Bernhardt, I know, I know... Paramahaṁsa: He knows them. And both of these gentlemen have Śrīla Prabhupāda's literature in their universities, in their libraries. Professor: Hm, hm. Prabhupāda: This book is recommended in the Temple University as textbook. Professor: Hm, hm. This one. *Prabhupāda: Nectar of Devotion. This is Caitanya*-caritā..., I mean to say, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Yes. "The summary study of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī's Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu." Professor: Hm, hm? So it's the complete text? Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete. You can read from any portion; you'll find so nice description. Anywhere from, you can read. Yes. Professor: But original text is not given. Prabhupāda: Then it will be very big volume. Therefore we have given summary study. But if time we get, we shall give the original text also. [break] *Professor: ...is translating this Ṣaṭ*-sandarbha. It is very voluminous. *Prabhupāda: Ṣaṭ*-sandarbha. Professor: Yaḥ. Prabhupāda: Not yet. Professor: No, no sense in this... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva Gosvāmī. Professor: Yes, also his books are very long. Prabhupāda: I, I, I am doing alone. *Professor: Also Gopāla*-campū. *Prabhupāda: Gopāla*-campū, yes, not yet done. Professor: No. That's what I have. Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: I've read part of that. Prabhupāda: Oh. I see. *Professor: Gopāla*-campū. Prabhupāda: Then you have read many of our Vaiṣṇava literatures. Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Professor: Also in Tamil. I'm partic... I'm doing also comparative studies between those in the Sanskrit and Tamil. Do you know Tamil? Prabhupāda: No. Professor: No. They also have a big collection. Prabhupāda: I don't know anything. (laughter) Professor: What? What? (pause) Do you have this, the Tenth Canto of the *Bhāgavatam*? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Professor: Which? Here. Or...? Pradyumna: That's *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa Book*. [break] Professor: ...take you to translate? Prabhupāda: I am doing in my dictaphone daily one tape. One tape, about how many pages? Pradyumna: Ten to twelve pages. Prabhupāda: And he's editing. After typing, he edits, and then it is gone to the press. In this way, our work is going on. Professor: Do you have the original here of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Professor: Could I see it? Is it any...? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is only Fifth Canto. We have got... You can bring that book, black bound. Pradyumna: Here's others. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Third Canto also. Prabhupāda: Oh, here is. [break] ...eight commentaries by different ācāryas. So I read all the commentaries and give my own. In this way, we are doing. Yes. Professor: Where do you have these eight commentaries? Are they found in this edition or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Vīrarāghava Ācārya, Jīva Gosvāmī, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. Here is the original text, type. It is in Bengali type. [break] Professor: ...does this one have? Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: How many commentaries does this one...? Prabhupāda: Oh, here. Only Śrīdhara Svāmī's. One commentary. Professor: That's the one I have read, Śrīdhara's. Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara's? Professor: Yes, only Śrīdhara's. Because it's difficult to get the other commentaries. Prabhupāda: No, they are available. Professor: Yes, I'm trying, but... Prabhupāda: [break] No. (On) purpose we have not translated because they are not meant for ordinary reading. They are meant for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because there is dealings of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, people will misunderstand. Professor: Yes, but it's very great poems. It's very beautiful, musical. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: But... *Prabhupāda: And we, we have translated pralaya*-payodhi-jale **. That is Daśāvatāra-stotra of Jayadeva Gosvāmī. We have translated Upadeśāmṛta of Rūpa Gosvāmī which is useful for general public. [break] Professor: ...Yes. And, I think, he was ill also. He was quite weak. Paramahaṁsa: When he died, he... Every year he was going to these trips to visit these Buddhist monasteries. Prabhupāda: He was a little attached to Buddhism? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, like Śaṅkarācārya, remember, he was... Prabhupāda: Impersonalist. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He was mentioning to you that he thought Śaṅkara's teachings were much more simpler, much more understandable, he said. Than, attractive, he said, than Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. This was his... Prabhupāda: What is your... [break] Professor: I do not find Śaṅkara... Well, it's too abstract and it's... Prabhupāda: Yes, right you are. It is round. Professor: It's a question of... Prabhupāda: ...about way. Professor: Yes, of course, it's difficult to practice, of course, for people in general also. But, of course, he has also written hymns. Prabhupāda: Yes. About Kṛṣṇa. Professor: And they are... Yes. And they are, of course, a bit different. So he, Śaṅkara himself, seemed to... *Prabhupāda: That is explained in this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, why Śaṅkara prepared, presented his Māyāvāda philosophy. It is explained there. Śrutakīrti: I remember where it was. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: I remember where it was... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. [break] *Professor: Do you have classes on Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Read it. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: ...haya sarva*-nāśa. Read the English translation. Pradyumna: "Śaṅkarācārya, who is an incarnation of Lord Śiva, is faultless because he is servant carrying out the orders of the Lord, but those who follow his Māyāvādī philosophy are doomed. They will lose all their advancement in spiritual knowledge." Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Anyone who hears Śaṅkara's comment on Vedānta philosophy, he is doomed. Professor: That's about it. Prabhupāda: What is the purport? *Pradyumna: "Māyāvādī philosophers are very proud of exhibiting their Vedānta knowledge through grammatical jugglery, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad*-gītā certifies that they are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15], bereft of real knowledge due to māyā. Māyā has two potencies with which to execute her two functions: prakṣepātmikā..." Prabhupāda: Prakṣepātmikā. *Pradyumna: "...śakti, the power to throw the living entity in the ocean of material existence, and āvaraṇātmikā-śakti, the power to cover the knowledge of the living entity. The function of the āvaraṇātmikā-śakti is explained the Bhagavad*-gītā by the word: māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Why the daivī-māyā, or illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa takes away the knowledge of the Māyāvādī philosophers is also explained in Bhagavad-gītā by the use of the words āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, which refer to a person who does not agree to the existence of the Lord. The Māyāvādīs, who are not in agreement with the existence of the Lord, can be classed in two groups, exemplified by the impersonalists Śaṅkarites of Vārāṇasī and the Buddhists of Saranātha. Both of them are Māyāvādīs, and Kṛṣṇa takes away their knowledge due to their atheistic philosophies. Neither of them agree to accept the existence of a personal God. The Buddhist philosophers clearly deny, clearly deny both the soul and God, and although the Śaṅkarites do not openly deny God, they say that the Absolute is nirākāra, or formless. Thus both of them are aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32], or imperfect and unclean in their knowledge and intelligence." Prabhupāda: What do you think? *Professor: That's... Of course, in the introduction to Śaṅkara's commentary to Bhagavad*-gītā, he does, it seems, if it is for him, which is that... Prabhupāda: He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Professor: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: So Śaṅkara is a bit difficult because his followers, even he's Māyāvādī, the followers, even the followers, they clearly believe in it. But whether, what Śaṅkara himself meant by it... Prabhupāda: No, that is explained. Śaṅkara is the incarnation of Lord Śiva. He has no fault. He has simply executed the order of the Supreme Lord. But the way in which he has presented the commentary, one should not hear it. That is his warning. Here is the Tenth Canto of *Bhāgavatam*, two volumes. Professor: That's also "Not for sale in India". Why? Prabhupāda: Because... Professor: Well, I'm not in India. Prabhupāda: India, we make members. We get more price. Because we are, our scheme, life member, they pay eleven hundred rupees, and whatever books we can supply, we supply. That's all. That is not even to the amount they pay. So we give our presentation and they contribute. This is the program. Professor: Do you use any grammar, Sanskrit grammar, when you study Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: Sanskrit grammar? Professor: Yes, how do they learn when they learn Sanskrit? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have given some hints. Professor: Or do they learn from a text or...? *Prabhupāda: We have given some hints. In the last... You can show him, in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Or Īśopaniṣad. The mode, how to read. Professor: No, Sanskrit is quite difficult... Prabhupāda: Yes, there... Professor: Many forms and so forth. Prabhupāda: Now, these boys, they did not know Sanskrit. By, by following the direction, they read very nicely these diacritic marks. Professor: Yes. Oh, this is good. Pradyumna: (indistinct) Professor: But they don't learn how to inflect forms and so on... Prabhupāda: Simply they have to learn the alphabet. Professor: Alphabet, but not, I mean... Prabhupāda: They they write the mark... Professor: Devaḥ, devam, devena, devāya, and so on. Prabhupāda: He has given the direction. This is made by him, how to pronounce. And then, by practice, it comes. Professor: Are you going to have any kīrtana also tonight? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, why not? You want to hear? Professor: Yes, very much. Prabhupāda: Well, all right. Begin. Pradyumna: With the mṛdaṅga? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Karatālas. Prabhupāda: So you are a bhakta? You are a devotee. Professor: Well... I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Now you have appeared. Very good. Professor: Well... But... Prabhupāda: So we have got a... Professor: ...well I'm studying it and I'm attracted by many things. *Prabhupāda: No, studying, there are many scholars, they are studying, but you are factually bhakta. How you wanted to hear kīrtana? That is the sign of bhakta. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Tan manye 'dhītam uttamam. Uttamam. He has, he has studied really. Professor: In India, where is your center? Do you have any headquarters or something like that...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got center in Vṛndāvana. Professor: Oh? Prabhupāda: Yes, in Navadvīpa. I was, after my retirement from family, I was staying at Vṛndāvana. From 1956. Then in 1965 I came to America. So... Where is Haṁsadūta? Paramahaṁsa: He's leading kīrtana downstairs, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Then...? You can, you can lead. Or anyone can lead. [break] So you like this kīrtana? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: It's very unusual in Sweden. Prabhupāda: So you are, you are a devotee. Kindly cooperate with us, and overflood Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are educated. Your word will be accepted more than ours. Professor: Yeah. How does one order these books? Haṁsadūta: We have them here or... Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: We just received shipment from Germany. Professor: You stock them here? Prabhupāda: Yes, all the books are there. Professor: (indistinct) You have spoken to him. Paramahaṁsa: I have spoken to him on the phone. He's on a trip, I think. Professor: Yes, to New York, I think. Prabhupāda: So what is your full name? Professor: Carl Suneson. It's quite difficult. Prabhupāda: Carl Simhasan. Professor: S, U, N, E, S, O, N. Prabhupāda: You are this...? Paramahaṁsa: Swedish. Professor: Swedish, yes. Prabhupāda: So he can attend our meeting. He can introduce. That will be nice. Professor: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. We're having a meeting, as you know, tomorrow night, at the Stockholm University. Professor: Yes, I'll probably be coming, yes. Paramahaṁsa: If you would, would you be kind enough, perhaps, to give an introductory lecture or, you know, to... Professor: Well... Paramahaṁsa: ...say, praise, or your appreciation of our movement or Śrīla Prabhupāda's teachings in front of the audience. Professor: I, I, I don't know exactly... I hope I can come, but I can't say for sure. Paramahaṁsa: I understand. I understand. Well, you're kindly invited. That goes without saying. Professor: Yes, yes, I'll try to come. That will be at the University. *Paramahaṁsa: Yes, tomorrow evening at seven*-thirty. Professor: No, I'll try to come. Do you think, this one, do you think I could...? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also available. Professor: ...for myself, or...? Paramahaṁsa: Unfortunately, I think we have to order these. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: I don't think they have it here yet in your... Prabhupāda: We are getting the consignment. Now we have only one copy. Professor: This is the only copy you have? Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you want to read overnight, then you can take. You can return tomorrow. Professor: Of course, if I don't take... Paramahaṁsa: Hm? No, I can return. I can. Professor: That's all right. I can wait. But then I get a copy of... That will be all right. Prabhupāda: So give him some prasādam. Śrutakīrti: Someone went out to get it. [break] Professor: ...kīrtanas? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bengali? Professor: Yes. Yes. Do you sing any hymns, kīrtanas in Bengali also? Haṁsadūta: Do we sing in Bengali? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Professor: Or mostly, mostly in Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: No, in Bengali some. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Haribol. Professor: I'm not... Prabhupāda: Give me water. (Prabhupāda sings Hari hari bifale,) You can replay this. [break] Professor: Who has written this? Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Professor: How old is this one? Prabhupāda: Eh? It is about two hundred fifty years ago it was written. There are many songs of Narottama Ṭhākura. *Pradyumna: All. the Mahājana*-gīti by Narottama dāsa. *Prabhupāda: Oh. There are so many songs. So you have devotional tendency. Develop it. Make your life successful. That is my humble suggestion. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā bi... Anyone who has got this human form of life, he does not engage himself in developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he's drinking poison knowingly. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Biṣa means poison. A great opportunity, this human life. That is our mission, that this modern civilization, they have created such entanglement that people are rotting and they are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Only on the basis of this bodily concept of life. Professor: Are you working all...? In what countries in Europe? Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: In what countries in Europe are you working in? Besides Scandinavia? Haṁsadūta: In Germany, France and England, Holland, everywhere, in all countries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course, this... Professor: But East, Eastern Europe's impossible, eh? Haṁsadūta: Yes, as a matter of fact, we, we have a devotee in East Berlin. But, of course, it's very difficult because the government doesn't allow it. But we just... He keeps a shaved head, and he's chanting. He's reading our books. Professor: But nobody has interfered with him? Haṁsadūta: Well, nobody knows. Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: I was just telling him about this devotee we have in East Berlin. We have a devotee in East Berlin who's chanting, and keeps a shaven head. Prabhupāda: Oh. Paramahaṁsa: Do you know Professor Kotofsky? Professor: Kotofsky? No. Paramahaṁsa: In Moscow. He's a Sanskrit... Head of the oriental studies. Professor: Kotofsky? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He's uh... Śrīla Prabhupāda, also met him one time in Moscow. Haṁsadūta: But he's not a devotee. Paramahaṁsa: No. Professor: No, but that's... Prabhupāda: Now, I, when we were talking, I asked him one question, that "Professor Kotofsky, you are communist, I am Kṛṣṇite. So where is the difference of philosophy? Because you have to accept one authority, leader. So you have accepted Lenin as leader; we have accepted Kṛṣṇa as leader. So where is the difference on the principle?" So he could not answer. But he very much appreciated this, that "Where is the difference between these two principles." But now we have to consider whether the leadership of Lenin is good, or the leadership of Kṛṣṇa is good. That is another thing. But you have to accept one leader. You cannot do without leader. That is not possible. Professor: Well, well, to some extent it's possible. Prabhupāda: No, every extent. Anyone, anyone calling... So many philosophy or ism, he has got leader. That you cannot avoid. The Buddhists, they are following Lord Buddha. Christians, they are following Lord Jesus Christ. Mohammedans, they are following Mohammed. Similarly the communists, they are following Lenin, or Max. What is? Devotees: Marx. Paramahaṁsa: Karl Marx. Prabhupāda: Karl Marx. Professor: But, of course, in Sweden, most people, they don't, they don't follow anybody. So it's... I mean... Prabhupāda: No, they follow. At least, one follows himself. Is it not? "Don't follow anyone" means he follows himself. He has got a particular philosophy, and he's the leader. Professor: Well, naturally, everybody has some kind of ideas, I mean, how to lead his life. Prabhupāda: But that will not help us. Professor: But, uh... Prabhupāda: Unless we accept the real leader, a perfect personality who can give us perfect knowledge, there is no success. That is our philosophy. Professor: Well, one has to acquire knowledge. Prabhupāda: Eh. Yeah. Therefore, if we have to acquire knowledge, we must go to a person who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned. There are four defects in the conditioned soul: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of senses. One may declare himself that he's perfect in knowledge, but his senses are imperfect. So how he can call himself that he has got the perfect knowledge by speculative method? Professor: Hm. Prabhupāda: The instrument which he is using for speculation, that instrument itself is imperfect. Professor: Well, normally our knowledge will be imperfect in some way or... Prabhupāda: Eh? Professor: Normally our knowledge is imperfect in one way or another. Prabhupāda: How it is perfect? Professor: Im... Haṁsadūta: Imperfect. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Imperfect. Professor: That is... Prabhupāda: So imperfect knowledge, one who has got imperfect knowledge, how he can give lesson perfect? Professor: No, but you can still give something, even if you... Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right, you get something, but that is not perfect. Professor: No, but of course, there are different kinds of knowledge and... Prabhupāda: No, our principle is to get perfect knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's above these defects. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni ca... [Bg. 7.26]. Find out this verse. *Pradyumna: Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: First of all, you find out that verse: bahūni me janmāni vyatītāni tava cārjuna. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Pradyumna: "In the Brahma*-saṁhitā we have information of many, many incarnations of the Lord. It is stated there: Prabhupāda: Infallible. Infallible. This word is used. Acyuta. Hm. Pradyumna: "...without beginning, although expanded into unlimited forms, still, the same original, the oldest and the person always appearing as a fresh youth... (Pradyumna goes on reading the purport until:) ...in the following verse." Then the next verse. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Then the next verse. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: *Professor: Well, it is quite widely read, the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Professor: The Bhagavad*-gītā is quite widely read. Pradyumna: This is an introduction by Professor Dimock. Professor: Yes, I've seen it. I read it. But it is quite widely read, you know. I mean the translations... *Prabhupāda: But one thing is that other Bhagavad*-gītās, they have interpreted in their own (indistinct) not as it is. That is the difference. Just like you, you must have read Bhagavad-gītā by Radhakrishnan. Professor: Yaḥ. Professor: Yes, sir. Radhakrishnan's, yes. Prabhupāda: Now he says, he misinterprets that "This is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Professor: No, but Radhakrishnan, his... He has wide knowledge also, but his interpretations... Prabhupāda: This is his knowledge. Professor: But his interpretations are... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Why he should interpret in that way? Kṛṣṇa personally says that "You become My devotee." And he says "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, the person." Why? He has no right to say like that. This way, these people mislead. If he is commenting on Bhagavad*-gītā, he must present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Why he gives his own opinion? If I say, "Give me a glass of water," how you cay say, "No, it is not to him?" How you can say? Is that very good thing? That Radhakrishnan has done. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, person." Just see. Do you think he has got the right to do so? Professor: No, but I don't think Radhakrishnan's commentaries are... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Just see. It is there. Professor: They are very incorrect often, and uh... Prabhupāda: He has done this. You can see from... *Professor: Yes, but there's a translation by Franklin Edgarton (?) of the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Translation is all right, but his commentation is wrong. Translation is all right. I know. That's very nice. It is done by some Englishman. Eh? Professor: Well, that's one. Yes. And also there is Edgarton (?). He was an American Sanskrit scholar. Prabhupāda: No, translation, there is, there is good translation. But he comments like that. Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was asked that "You are hearing; You do not speak anything," He said, "Yes, I am understanding the original verse of the Vedānta very clearly, but you are trying to cover the meaning. Therefore I am puzzled." This is the business of the Māyāvādīs. They'll simply puzzle. That's all. Professor: Who? The Māyā...? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī. Professor: Māyāvādī, hm. Prabhupāda: Yes. You also told me that it is very difficult to understand the jugglery way of presentation. Professor: Well, I think it's time for me to leave. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. Professor: I have a long way home. Prabhupāda: Give him this garland. Hm. Jaya. (end) Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm Prabhupāda: When you left Moscow? Ambassador: February, six months ago. Prabhupāda: Oh. I went Moscow in...? Paramahaṁsa: 1970. Prabhupāda: Nineteen...? Paramahaṁsa: Seventy. Prabhupāda: No, no. I think nineteen... *Haṁsadūta: Seventy*-one. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Seventy... Prabhupāda: Two. *Haṁsadūta: Seventy*-two, that's right. Prabhupāda: June. Haṁsadūta: June. Paramahaṁsa: That was last year? *Haṁsadūta: Seventy*-one. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Seventy*-one. Paramahaṁsa: In April, I think, or March. *Prabhupāda: You were there at seventy*-one? *Ambassador: Seventy*-one, I was, I think, there. I might have gone to India on leave. I returned in March, the end of March. Because I don't remember the... Prabhupāda: Yes. I went there in June, 1971. Ambassador: And did you stay in the city, or did...? Prabhupāda: Yes, in National Hotel. One Madrasi gentleman... Ambassador: I remember now, sir. Abhiyarthe(?) Natarajan. Prabhupāda: Nataraja, yes. Ambassador: Mr. Natarajan Rao told me because I was away. I was away in Central Asia. I remember his telling me. And Natarajan looked after. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: I see. Prabhupāda: So you have heard something about our movement? Ambassador: General, generally, in general. *Prabhupāda: All over the world, they are expecting something spiritual enlightenment from India. That is a fact. But our government is callous in that respect. Therefore any so*-called swami, yogis, come from India, they gather to receive him, to hear something from him. Yes. This is the tendency, that... The real thing is that people expected something... Still they are respectful to India on account of the spiritual enlightenment. That I have studied. Still they go to India to have some spiritual enlightenment. And actually we have got this in India. If anything has to be learned about spiritual, then it is only India. That has been admitted by one Chinese gentleman. He's a learned scholar. His book is recommended in New York University. I forget his name. He has written in his book that "If you want to learn something religion and spiritual, then you must go to India." *Ambassador: It must be Lin*-yu-tang, no. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Ambassador: Was it Lin*-yu-tang? Prabhupāda: I don't know. *Ambassador: Yu*-tang. You see he's a very great admirer of (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And that's a fact. But our Indian government is not very serious about it. *Ambassador: No, we have a difficulty, Your Eminence. We have got a problem in India because we have got this multi*-religious society. So we have to be careful. But individuals can... Prabhupāda: No... Ambassador: Because we have got to be... We should not be misunderstood. As a government, we should not take too strong a policy about any particular religion, even though it is the religion of the majority of the people. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is the duty of the government... Secular state means neutral to any kind of religion. But it is the duty of government to see that people are religious. Not that "Because government is secular, let the people go to hell." Ambassador: No, that's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are Muslim, and, it is my duty as government to see that you are actually acting as a Muslim. If you are a Hindu, it is the government's duty to see that you are acting as a Hindu. If you are a Christian, it is the government's duty. You cannot give up religion. Dharmena hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. If people become irreligious in the name of secularism, then they are simply animals. So it is the government's duty to see that the citizens are not becoming animals. He may profess a type of religion. That doesn't matter. But he must be religious. That is secular state. Not that secular state means government is callous, "Let the people become cats and dogs, without religion. Government doesn't care." That is not good government. What do you think? Ambassador: I think, Your Eminence, there's a lot in what you say, but, you know, politics is the art of the possible. Prabhupāda: No. No, politics means to see that people are advanced, citizens are advanced, not that they are degraded. Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious... I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something... Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is... Prabhupāda: No. That is... Just like you have got the Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, common share, or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors? Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector. They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely. But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government's duty. Ambassador: Probably, as far as moral conduct is concerned, but more than that, how is it possible, you know? For the inner man in the spiritual mind, each individual can conceive his own philosophy, but the external conduct, the, the, what is called...? Prabhupāda: No, no. External conduct means on religious principle. Ambassador: This is what I was... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... I... You can, you can... Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...understand Sanskrit. Ambassador: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If one has got faith and devotion to God, God is one... God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is one. So religion means according to... Not according to... This is the Vedic conclusion. Ambassador: I heard about it. Prabhupāda: I was invited there to speak: "East and West." So I explained that so far we are concerned, we have no such thing as east and west. But still, there is difference between east and west that in the Eastern countries, especially in India, even in the remotest part of the village, a cultivator, poor cultivator, he'll understand God consciousness very easily. And so far in the West, I talked with Professor Kotofsky... Perhaps you know. Ambassador: Yes. In Oriental Institute. Prabhupāda: Yes. He said, "Swamiji, after this body's finished, everything is finished." You see? Such a big professor. He... Ambassador: That is Marxist materialism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: It is Marxist materialism. Prabhupāda: But Marxist materialism, does it mean a congregation of some fools and rascals? Ambassador: I think so, true. *Prabhupāda: Does it mean they like that some congregation of fools and rascals? Such a big professor, he does not know, he cannot understand even that there is life after death. He has to accept another body. As we are accepting different bodies. I was a child. You were a child. Then I became a boy. That is different body. Different consciousness also. A child, three*-four years, he talks in a different way. A boy, ten-twelve years, he talks in a different way, and a young man, educated young man, he talks in a different way. So with the change of the body, the consciousness is changing. Is it not? Ambassador: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Children, small children, they're just like animals. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category because when he'll get..., he'll get another body in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness? If you make progress. Yes. This is progressive. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Ambassador: But in the countries like Moscow, Soviet Union, they are hostile, against it, but in most countries of the world, they're indifferent. It's... Prabhupāda: No, no. Why Moscow? Everywhere. Moscow, they are, rather, good that they say, "We don't believe in God." Ambassador: That's true, that's true. Prabhupāda: But others, they say that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I believe in God," but he does not know anything. Ambassador: I'm afraid most of us are like that, to be honest. That's true. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I should say that Moscow are gentlemen. Because they cannot understand, they say, "Don't believe." *Ambassador: It's mūḍha*-dhī. Prabhupāda: Yes. But these rascals, they say, "Yes, I'm religious," but he's doing most irreligious activities. You see? I asked the Christian so many times that "Your Bible says, 'Thou shalt not kill.' Why you are killing?" They cannot give any satisfactory answer. This is my experience. It is clearly said, "Thou shalt not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouses. What is this? The other day in London, one lady, she was showing me... She... You were present? Broke some grass blade? Haṁsadūta: Oh yes, I was present. Prabhupāda: Just see. Breaking a grass blade is equal to keeping a big, organized slaughterhouse. Just see. Ambassador: I see. Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence. She has complained, "It is also killing." Supposing it is killing. Actually it is not killing. Supposing it is killing. This killing and keeping organized slaughterhouse killing is the same thing. Just see. People have become so degraded. Ambassador: This is sophistry. Prabhupāda: They give this example that: "You also kill vegetables, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re... They, they were Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So... And in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and... What can I say? You are government man. (laughs) You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal? Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Ambassador: ...you have to organize slaughterhouses. Prabhupāda: Then, then that is the, our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture. Ambassador: Because... Prabhupāda: Indian culture. Ambassador: Your Grace, what you want is really a sort of complete... Prabhupāda: No, I don't want. Ambassador: ...a strong, obedient, disciplined society. But the moment the disciplinarian becomes a dictator, it is... Prabhupāda: It is, it is the duty of the government to see. That is the government. Strong government means... *Ambassador: It's the Rāma*-rājya ideal. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like the father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice. That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all." Is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time, to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic śāstra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government? Government... Now it is government. But formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God. Because... Who is God? God means nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kaṭhopaniṣad. So God, what is God? God means He's also person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is also eternal, He's also cognizant. We are also eternal, we are also cognizant. But what is the difference between God and we? The difference is He maintains us. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Bahu*-vacanam, nityānām, cetanānām, this is bahu-vacanam. And nityaḥ, cetanaḥ, eka-vacanam. So what is the difference between this singular number and plural number? The singular number is maintaining the plural number. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. So God is maintaining everyone. So difference is that He is so powerful, He can maintain every living entity. He's maintaining the elephants in Africa, who eat, at a time, forty kilos. He's supplying food. There's no scarcity of food in the jungle for the elephants. Neither there is scarcity... In the hole of your room, you'll find hundreds and thousands of ui. Who is feeding them, within the hole? Unless they're eating, sleeping, the same thing are there. How they are living very nicely? But who is giving them food within the hole? A small hole. You did not provide that hole. You did not provide their food. But there are hundreds and millions of ants. They're living there within the hole very happily. Sometimes they come out. We see: "Oh, wherefrom so many hundreds coming?" So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is God. He's supplying food. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Out of that, 400,000 are human beings. Out of that, many are uncivilized. The uncivilized aborigines live in the jungle. They have no economic problem. They're also human being. They never come to city for food. They are maintaining themselves. The elephants are maintaining. The ants are maintaining. Why the civilized, a few men, they have got so problem, so many problems? Because they... We are not the only living entities. There are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. They're all being maintained by the Supreme Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ: [Bg. 14.4] "As many forms are there, in all different species," ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā, "I am the Father." The father maintains the sons, as we see actually. He's maintaining. So why you are so much...? Our father is rich. He's not poor. God is not poor. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Six kinds of opulence fully. So why are you talking of this over-population, scarcity of food? Why? Actually the father is God. He's maintaining. And factually we see how many human beings, civilized human beings, are there. The other living beings are many hundred thousand times bigger quantity. If they can be maintained by God, what we have done, that He'll not maintain us? He'll maintain us. He's maintaining. So many people they say, "India is starving." I am Indian. I never see any man starving and died. I've never seen. This is simply advertisement. What is your opinion? Ambassador: There is poverty. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: There is poverty. Prabhupāda: Poverty, there is poverty in other countries also. Ambassador: Also. Prabhupāda: There, there also... Now India has got poverty. So why in America and Europe, there are hippies. Why? Ambassador: It's an express... It's another type of poverty. Prabhupāda: They're also thinking that "We are not sumptuously fed," or something. Some demands is there. Some demand. And they are lying down, Amsterdam and here, on the street. And why? But they are coming of rich families, rich nation. Especially America. In London also, I have seen. Regent Park. They're lying down. Police is kicking. Police is kicking: "Get up, get up!" Why? Behind them the British Empire is, British government is there. Why he's lying down there? Who has told him to...? Government is requesting, "If you have no home, come on. I shall give you home." In Bombay also, these, what is called? The huts? Haṁsadūta: Huts? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Those tent huts? Prabhupāda: They are on the... You have seen in Bombay? Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: We passed, when we passed while coming from aerodrome to city... Ambassador: From... Prabhupāda: So many thatched cottages, small. So Bombay government has given them home, that "You come here, live." But what do they...? they rent to some, another man, and they live in the... In Madras also, I have seen. Ambassador: I know. That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. They don't like. They don't like. They want to... Ambassador: They roam, yes. It's what the gypsies did, you know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: When they were given houses in Moscow. Prabhupāda: So there are different prakṛtis. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. So there are different prakṛtis, different mentality. They want to live, eat. The eating, sleeping, mating, defending is there, but everyone has got different ideas. Just like you say, majority of people, they want to eat meat. They have got different mentality. But we don't want. Ambassador: In India, of course, not majority, I think it's a minority. Prabhupāda: No, no. More... Ambassador: Most people are... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In India, they're now being educated to eat meat. (Ambassador laughs) Otherwise, Indians, at least, Hindus... Ambassador: It is true. That's true. Prabhupāda: Eh? They are being educated. Ambassador: (laughing) I belong to vegetarian family. I eat meat now. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in Madras, I have seen... Ambassador: Most of them... *Prabhupāda: Mostly they are vegetarian, strictly vegetarian. Actually, in Southern India, they maintain the Hindu culture. You'll find big high*-court judges, they have got tilaka. Ambassador: That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Strictly in Rāmānuja sampradāya, or Śaiva sampradāya they have got... Strictly taking bath and tilaka. In New Delhi, you'll find so many Madrasi gentlemen, big, big, high officers, they're strictly following Hindu principles. Ambassador: You'll be surpri... Prabhupāda: And still, if I am correct, in Madras, they, there, there is not many Mohammedans. The Mohammedan culture could not enter... Ambassador: That's very true. Prabhupāda: ...into Madras, Southern India. And you'll find also in our Caitanya Caritāmṛta... Now I am translating. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to Southern India, practically whole Southern India became Vaiṣṇava by His preaching. Ambassador: It is a great period of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And all the ācāryas, they came from South India. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. I think Madhvācārya belonged to your province? Malaya? Ambassador: No, Śaṅkarācārya came from... Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. *Ambassador: From Kerala. Sir, I have got a question. I have not really been able to locate when exactly Rādhā entered Hindu mythology. Because the Bhāgavatam doesn't mention. They mention only rāsa*-krīḍā as a... Before that, they were, before Gaurāṅga, Caitanya, did you, do you have rendered exactly the bhakti cult to take... The Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, I mean. They were generally the gopīs and... *Prabhupāda: Other ācāryas, they elevated people up to sākhya*-rasa. *Ambassador: Sākhya*-rasa. *Prabhupāda: It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He gave us mādhurya*-rasa. *Ambassador: Mādhurya*-rasa. *Prabhupāda: Therefore about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, it is said, anarpita*-carīṁ cirāt. Anarpita-carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇaḥ kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasāṁ... Ambassador: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Anayārādhitaḥ. Ambassador: Oh, this is the beginning. *Prabhupāda: Anayārādhitaḥ. When Kṛṣṇa disappeared from rāsa*-līlā, rāsa dance, then gopīs went out to search Him out, and, at that time, they saw that one gopī is most beloved by Kṛṣṇa. Anayārādhitaḥ. Therefore "Rādhā." Ambassador: Anayārādhitaḥ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: I do not know what we can do here, Your Grace, but we will be very happy to help them if they want any special material like dahl or any vegetables or... whatever it is... I think they are quite well. Prabhupāda: Yes. We, we, we have no fixed income. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa has given us opportunity. Our books are selling... You have seen our books? Ambassador: I've seen them in Moscow. One gentleman had a complete set. So I have glanced through them. Especially the Bhagavad... *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is? Ambassador: ...translation, yes. And also the *Bhāgavatam*, also. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Ambassador: Yes, this one, yes. Prabhupāda: This is published by Macmillan Company. We are selling about more than one lakh copies per year through Macmillan Company. Yes. Similarly, we are selling our other books. Bring... Ambassador: The complete set I have seen. And also the other... Prabhupāda: That is not yet complete. *Bhāgavatam* will be finished in sixty volumes. Ambassador: Oh, sixty. Prabhupāda: We have published only six volumes. Our manuscript is ready, but it requires great amount of money to publish. Ambassador: And also... *Prabhupāda: But we are satisfied that in English-reading public, in Australia and America, in England, Europe*-we are publishing in different languages-people are accepting our books very nicely. And lately that, one distributor... Ambassador: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: This. No, not this. Where is that catalog? Haṁsadūta: Brockridge, Keenan and Hall? Prabhupāda: Ah, ah? Haṁsadūta: Catalog? I think we must have left that in London. Prabhupāda: They are also distributing our books, Macmillan Company. People are... Now there will be a big meeting on the 12th, September, how to organize. Because this kind of literature was there, there was none before this. The bhakti cult, this was never presented to the western countries. Ambassador: Yes, yes. Mostly it was Vivekananda's explanation. Prabhupāda: Vivekananda did not know anything about bhakti. Ambassador: No, I mean he just, literally, it's not bhakti at all. Yes, it is... *Prabhupāda: Neither Vivekananda nor any swami. That is the regrettable fact. They, actually... Even Dr. Radhakrishnan, he could not present Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. You see? He's impersonalist, and he presented in a different way, and now Professor, Dr. Pirindher...? Haṁsadūta: Philinder. Śrutakīrti: Dillinger. Prabhupāda: He said, he came to see me that "Now we have rejected Dr. Radhakrishnan." Ambassador: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because everyone has speculated in his own way. Therefore we have presented Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. And if you have got time, we can read some of the portions, how we have presented as it is. So people are liking this As It Is. Otherwise, Bhagavad-gītā is well-known in the western country, all over Europe. But because it was not presented as it is, there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You find out, the whole history. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for making the reader a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? Ambassador: That's true. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So who can become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. Find out this verse. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: [Bg. 7.23] "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement. Ambassador: Most of... Well, I mean, I was a very political person. I must be very honest with you. Prabhupāda: No, I'm talking of... Ambassador: To me, *Gītā* means Gandhi's *Gītā* which said in a very distorted, very limited version... *Prabhupāda: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad*-gītā. Ambassador: (laughs) I understand him best. *Prabhupāda: Well, you... Gandhi may give his opinion, but why he should give through Bhagavad*-gītā? *Ambassador: I know. Anāsakta*-yoga is really... *Prabhupāda: He should not take advantage of... That is being done. Everyone is taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad*-gītā and he's expressing his own opinion. Ambassador: That's true. Prabhupāda: This is going on. We want to stop this nonsense. If you have got opinion, you write different book. Ambassador: Yes. But not... *Prabhupāda: Why you should misuse Bhagavad*-gītā. Ambassador: The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: That's what Shakespeare said, sir, "The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose." *Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes. That's a fact. Yes, why you should try to introduce your philosophy... Now, say, for Gandhi's non*-violence. Where is non-violence in Bhagavad-gītā. Ambassador: (laughs.) It's... Yeah, this is true. Ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ, dharmo 'hiṁsā tathaiva ca. (?) *Prabhupāda: So our, our point is that you may express your own op... Everyone has got right to... Especially Mahatma Gandhi, he was actually a great personality. There is no doubt about it. But so far Bhagavad*-gītā is concerned, he did not know anything. But from his behavior, it was seen that at heart he was a devotee. Yes. At heart he was a devotee. Yes. Because he was chanting... Ambassador: Yes, of course, he, of course, shares with you this belief in chants. That we noticed, yes, very much in... Prabhupāda: That raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. Ambassador: Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Ah. So that... But maybe for politics, he has explained like that. Now what is that verse? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Next verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Then next. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: That also kāmān. Whatever benediction they get, that is sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. They cannot give it independently. You can keep it here. These six volumes are already published. *Ambassador: Oh, I see, Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: But, uh, no, this is *Bhāgavatam*. Ambassador: Śrī *Bhāgavatam*. *Prabhupāda: Similar, another fifty*-four volumes is to be published. Ambassador: Oh, it's a tremendous undertaking. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ambassador: Whatever might be the difference of opinion about the, you know, the subtleties, you see, this itself is very great. Prabhupāda: And we have given each meaning of... You can see the Sanskrit verse, how we have explained. Here and in America especially, as soon as they see, they purchase the whole set. Six copies. See. *Ambassador: Beautiful. Very, very elegant English also. (Reads Sanskrit verse:) Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam avyalīka*-vratādṛtaḥ. And then you, you make it easy. Actually, it's... Prabhupāda: Transliteration also. Ambassador: ...It's for students also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration. Ambassador: Yes. Transliteration and then (Sanskrit) and then... Prabhupāda: Translation. Ambassador: Viccheda. How long will Your Divine Grace be here? Prabhupāda: Four days? Haṁsadūta: It's on the 11th. Eleventh morning we're leaving, back to London. Ambassador: Back to London. And you'll be visiting only Sweden this time? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: Not Copenhagen or Oslo? Haṁsadūta: No. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda attem... He traveled to Paris, and also, previously, to Amsterdam and Germany, in years previously. Ambassador: This temple is going to be a permanent situation, this particular building, or...? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Ambassador: Or somewhere. Paramahaṁsa: In the beginning stage, yes. Ambassador: Yes, then you'll have to locate something. *Prabhupāda: So practically single*-handed I am trying to give this original Indian culture to the world. And nobody's helping me. Neither, if some rich man wants to help me, government will not allow to help me. Ambassador: Oh, yes, especially... Prabhupāda: Now just like Sir Padampat Singhania of Kanpur, he promised that, "You just construct a nice temple in New York." He wanted to give the money. The government will not allow. Ambassador: Oh, foreign exchange. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not allow. I made correspondence with the government. The last reply was that "You can raise fund locally, but you cannot take money from here." Now who will pay...? Of course, these boys are paying me. We are getting... Now recently, one boy, you know his name, George Harrison. He's a very famous singer. Ambassador: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he has purchased for me one house, fifty*-five lakhs worth. But what, no Indian could help me. At two hundred and twenty thousand pounds. So it is equivalent to fifty-five lakhs. *Ambassador: But I'm told that you have fifty*-five temples in the west... Prabhupāda: No, why fifty? More than fifty... In U.S.A. we have got about fifty temples. And Australia, also, we have got five temples. And Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, and... Paramahaṁsa: Perth. Prabhupāda: Perth. And Darwin. Ambassador: Darwin also. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And we had very gorgeous Ratha*-yātrā ceremony in Australia. In London also. You know that? Ten thousand people participated, and we distributed prasādam. Ambassador: On the 12th you'll have it in London. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: This big meeting will be in London, on the 12th. *Haṁsadūta: That is another meeting. Our Ratha*-yātrā is held on July 8th in London. Ambassador: Yes, that's right. Haṁsadūta: July 8th. And simultaneously in San Francisco and in Sydney, all over the world. Prabhupāda: And during Janmāṣṭamī, the... Ambassador: Ah, Janmāṣṭamī. Prabhupāda: The, the ambassador, Mr. Rasagotra... Ambassador: Rasagotra. Prabhupāda: He came. He's very nice man. Ambassador: Yes. He suffered, you know. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: In personal life also, he has suffered. Prabhupāda: One of his sons died. Ambassador: That's what I was telling. He's a very good man. His wife is also coming from a very religious family, like what your grace said, you know. His wife's grandfather was one of the real sādhus, you see. He lived in a... He was a Jat, but he was also a yogi. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambassador: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our history, we find so many gṛhasthas, householder, kings, rājarṣi. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Rājā, king, at the same time, ṛṣi. This was the king. Just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Rājarṣi. He's a king, but ṛṣi. You read that portion. Yes. The government of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, how they were happy, just see. Kāmam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. Parjanya. Parjanya means cloud, yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. The, all our necessities come from the rain. Now there is scarcity of rain. What the government can do or the scientists can do? And if there is no rain, then all your plan is finished. Ambassador: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: All his plan is finished. Read it. *Ambassador: Anāvṛṣṭi, avṛṣṭi*-bhuj. *Prabhupāda: And that is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa and kara-pīḍita. One side, there will be no rain, and there will be scarcity of food grain, and government will tax heavily. In this way, people will become mad and they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest. This is the foretelling also. This is going to happen. Actually, people are being perplexed in that way. There is scarcity of food, and there is scarcity of rain, and government tax is increasing every year. Read that. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know it, that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So how they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know that "We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the cow is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were happy. Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet with milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to live. We... Our Bhagavad-gītā says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vaiśya. Means kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows*-to kill cows. Just see, business. Vaiśya means businessman. So vaiśya's business is kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. But no go-rakṣya. Cutting the throat of go. This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead of giving protection to the cows... In the Bible, also it is said that the animals are given under the protection of the human being. Paramahaṁsa: Man, yeah, yes. Prabhupāda: Man. The protection means to kill them. Just see. They have interpreted like that, that "The animals have been given to us to kill them and eat." This is their interpretation. Ambassador: Swamiji, I have taken already... You have been so kind. Prabhupāda: No it is very kind of you that you have come. Ambassador: No, it's all on you. Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, we're preparing prasādam. Prabhupāda: Purīs. Haṁsadūta: Purīs and sweet rice. *Prabhupāda: So we are simply trying to revive people's dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So every sane man, every good government, everyone should come forward to help this movement. It is not a personal affair. We are not presenting that "I am avatāra, I am God." We are presenting science, philosophy. You see? Why we are taking so much trouble to write so many books? If we... We want to convince people through science, philosophy, logic, religious principle, by practical behavior. All these boys are being trained up not to have any illicit sex, not to eat meat, and not to take any intoxication up to tea, coffee, cigarette and not to indulge in gambling. They're doing that. So we are making men of character, men of religion, men of philosophy. Why people should not cooperate with us? We are not presenting any blind, so*-called religious faith. No. That is not our business. Our business is śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra. You understand little Bengali? You understand Hindi. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ambassador: Yes, I am aware of the government problem. Prabhupāda: Eh? Because they think, "Oh, it is religious." Not only they are... In America there are big, big foundation. As soon as we submit some petition, "Help us," "No, no, we don't help any religious movement." That's all. We don't get any help. Simply Kṛṣṇa has given us this chance of selling these books. That's all. Nobody's cooperating. Rather, when our people go to sell these literatures and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're arrested and harassed. Ambassador: I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: That is because of, I think, a lot of confusion with drug movement, hippies and all that... *Prabhupāda: Oh. But... It may be... You might have been cheated by counterfeit money in some place. Does it mean there is no good money? What is this reasoning? "Because I have been cheated by some man, he gave me some counterfeit money, therefore I'll not touch money any more. No. Any note, that's all. We don't like." What is this? He must judge whether it is counterfeit or real. That is required. So if you can help us in some way or other, try to help us. Otherwise we shall go on with this single*-handed. But I am not getting any help from any other source. Then this movement had been, would have been very, very rapidly progressing. It is progressing, but... Because we don't get any support... Lord Buddha's movement was spread because King Aśoka supported. Paramahaṁsa: Christ. Ambassador: Christ also? Constantine? Paramahaṁsa: Protestantism, yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: The Protestant movement also, when they broke away from the Catholic church, the kings would protect the movement and fight to protect. Prabhupāda: It is king's duty. Ambassador: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: But we are... We are small people. We can only, we cannot go beyond the... Prabhupāda: Yes. That I know. Ambassador: But as individuals we'd be very happy to... Prabhupāda: No, even if we approach higher authorities... Our men in New Delhi saw Indira Gandhi. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. She said that "This is the position, that we are secular. We cannot support." Of course, we want simply Kṛṣṇa's support. And we are increasing. We are not decreasing. The movement was started in 1966. Ambassador: Oh, only? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: That's tremendous. Prabhupāda: Now it is all over. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: All over the world. From this Sweden to Australia, New Zealand, North and South. And all round the world. Ambassador: What about Germany also? Prabhupāda: Yes. He's in charge of this zone. Ambassador: The Germans are very... Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have a temple in Berlin, and Munchen, and Hamburg and Heidelberg. Prabhupāda: No, we are not discouraged. We are not discouraged. But sometimes we are sorry that such a nice movement... Ambassador: Is not supported. I mean, I... We have this dilemma. I'm being very honest with you. First, we have got the dilemma of choosing the right thing, you know, because so many people claim to speak about reviving Hinduism. Prabhupāda: But, as, as you find out... Just like you issue license to medical practitioner. Registered medical... Why don't you see that which movement is genuine? That is the duty of the government. But the government is also, they're unaware about which one is actually... (Devotees bring in prasāda.) Ambassador: Oh, I'm... I'm very grateful to you, but this is, it is a meal. Paramahaṁsa: Jaya. It is our pleasure. Prabhupāda: You can keep here. Ambassador: I'll take the real prasāda. I'll be happy. Prabhupāda: No, you can take. It is all real prasāda. Ambassador: But, you know this, to us is, we call in Kerala. This is called tryamṛta. Prabhupāda: What is that? Ambassador: Tryamṛta is sugar and honey and... Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambassador: ...sugar and grapes. Prabhupāda: Pañcāmṛta, we have got. Ambassador: Hmm... Prabhupāda: Tryamṛta. Ambassador: Yes. All this is prepared by these young men? (eating.) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. One thing I can request you, that you give us, some of, some of our men, going to India, missionary visa. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that they can stay there. Because we have now four, five temples. And I require their assistance. To maintain. Ambassador: In India. Prabhupāda: In India. So if you kindly give some of our men the missionary visa, it will be very kind of you. It is missionary. Ambassador: I'll immediately write and find out because it is a very logical thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: Because we give them to other religions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not this? So if you kindly help in this way. That is within your power. Ambassador: I'll simply write. Of course. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there is no use of writing. You can do it. We can immediately submit some of the names. And you can give us. Ambassador: Of course, from Sweden, I mean, it depends upon the nationality. People can go for three months without any visa. Prabhupāda: No, that is different thing. But missionary visa. From missionary... When there's missionary, there is no question of any particular country, because we have got men from different countries. Our men, ISKCON representatives, they should be given missionary visa when they want to go. That is my... That much help I want. Ambassador: Who is the representative in India? Of this...? In Delhi, of your organization? In Delhi? Prabhupāda: In Delhi? Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. Tejas. Paramahaṁsa: Tejas dāsa. Ambassador: He should meet someone fairly senior in the home ministry. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: I can write to him, and he can also meet. I think... Prabhupāda: So you can, you can give some introductory... Ambassador: Yes, I will give the names, too. You come to the Embassy. Prabhupāda: No, visa, of course, it is to be given from here. So why you should refer to Delhi? You can use your discrimination. Ambassador: I don't think so. I'll see. I doubt very much. If I can exercise, I am prepared to exercise it. Prabhupāda: So... No, no. Visa, visa is issued from the country... *Ambassador: Yeah, from the embassy, but we have got some, some people we can straight*-away issue. In some cases they would refer to India. But if we make a positive recommendation, they will agree. Prabhupāda: So that I do not know. But visa is given by the embassy, from the local place. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like prasādam? Prabhupāda: Later on. Ambassador: Much too early. Prabhupāda: So they have done nice? Ambassador: They have done so well, you know. I feel... Prabhupāda: So you kindly eat all of them. Ambassador: I feel privileged(?), but I can't eat them all. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is only two. Ambassador: I'll eat only two parāṭās. Prabhupāda: Ah, two parāṭās. Ambassador: Because you have done it so well. *Prabhupāda: Prasādaṁ prāpti*-mātreṇa bhoktavyam. That is the Vedic injunction. Even it is brought from distant place, even it is dried up, even it is touched by the untouchable, still it should be taken immediately. Ambassador: Yes, that's true... *Prabhupāda: Prasādaṁ prāpti*-mātreṇa bhoktavyam. Ambassador: Remember how Kṛṣṇa received Sudāmā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: When he brought the...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: Have you been to Kerala ever? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was in Cochin. While coming to New York, I came on ship. So my ship stopped in Cochin. Yes. Ambassador: I see. We have got some wonderful Kṛṣṇa temples, Kṛṣṇa temples. Prabhupāda: In Cochin? *Ambassador: In Cochin? Not in Cochin town. There is, but not very famous, but the one about ten miles from Cochin, where I come from, is one of the greatest temples called Pūrṇa*-trayeśa (?). This is a very good. The Cochin royal family used to stay... Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you come from there? Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: Swami Cinmayananda also comes from there? Ambassador: Yes. Swami Cinmayananda comes from Vernayakulam.(?) Prabhupāda: Vernayakulam(?), yes. Ambassador: I come from about five miles. I actually used to know him when, before he became... When he was a journalist. Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: I used to know him when he was a journalist. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was a journalist? Ambassador: Yes, before. In Dacra.(?) Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambassador: But is there any special, specific person who wants to go to India immediately? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: Who would like to have visa? Prabhupāda: No, we can give you the names if... Ambassador: I see. Please give me the name and the nationality. I can immediately (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can submit immediately some of the names. Because we are organizing there, and the security department there: "Oh, your visa is now complete. You please return." Ambassador: I know. Prabhupāda: But who... We have got now temples. Who will manage that? Big, big temples I have constructed. In Navadvīpa, in Hyderabad. Ambassador: Navadvīpa... Of course, Navadvīpa is... Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana. Ambassador: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, In Vṛndāvana. We have got very, very, big, big temples now. So those temples, the Indians are callous. They are after technology. They are not coming. So how I'll manage, how I'll manage them if they are driven away? That is my problem. But the Indian boys, they are not coming. Indian educated... They are coming, but not very educated. Ambassador: That's... I, I understand what you mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. The educated Indian, boys, they'll accept good service. Why they come to temple? Ambassador: I'm sorry. You are right. Prabhupāda: That is education. They are not prepared to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want some good service and enjoy life. That's all. Ambassador: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no. You can place there. What you want just now? Ambassador: I just want to place it here, and that washroom. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can wash inside. [break] Ambassador: I'm sorry. I came immediately after lunch you know. Leaving only one hour between the lunch and one hour, you know. So I'll remember this, Your Grace, and of course, I will do personally what I can. I've... Prabhupāda: Yes, that... Ambassador: ...distributed the invitations to all the Indians, you see. But I'm afraid the Indians in Sweden are extremely... Prabhupāda: Eh? Ambassador: How shall I put it? Extremely material and... Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. Everywhere. Ambassador: So I do not expect much response. I'm being very honest with you, you know. Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. In India also. Indians are everywhere. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they think... Familiarity breeds contempt. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, we know. What you have got to teach us?" Although he doesn't know anything, because he, he belongs to the country where Kṛṣṇa appeared, therefore he knows everything. That... You know that Hindi. (Hindi) Ambassador: Poetic. "The prophet is not honored in his own country." Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) That is this position. So do you think I shall submit some name? Ambassador: Certainly, Your Grace, and I will look into it and if I have got right, I will do it, or I will send... Prabhupāda: No. You are... Why you have not right? Because... Ambassador: Yes, I've got, there are discretions. Prabhupāda: Then, then it will be useless. Because as soon as you send to Delhi, they'll refuse. So then don't try for it. If you can, if you can help personally, then we'll submit the names. Otherwise, if you go in official channels, I don't expect. Ambassador: No, I'll look at the rules you see and... I can't break the rules. Prabhupāda: So you see the rules. If you can... Ambassador: I can't break the rules. Prabhupāda: ...then I'll submit. Ambassador: Quite right. Prabhupāda: Then when I shall send some of my men to know that you can? When I shall send? Ambassador: By tomorrow afternoon. Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. Then I shall... Otherwise, useless. If you officially forward, and they reply, it will be... No. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: I do not know why. The Christian missionaries, they get missionary visa. Ambassador: But I would... If you permit me, I am still, if I find a rule, rights, I'll do it. Otherwise, I'll be very happy to write a very strong letter to the Deputy Secretary concerned and also... Prabhupāda: Anyway, in whatever way you can help. This is a difficulty for me, that there are chasing after our men. Ambassador: I personally think that there is not much reason to... Because we are allowing... Prabhupāda: There is no reason at all. Ambassador: And this is the... Hypocritical. Prabhupāda: If, if they're giving missionary visa to the Christian missionaries, what we have done? So kindly be seriously thinking and, if possible, give us. So he'll go in the afternoon and see him. If he's able, then we can send some men. And many men, they're prepared to go to India. But this botheration. They'll go, after spending so much money, and they'll be chased. That has become a problem. Otherwise I have told some years ago that "Sometimes you'll have to import brāhmaṇas from this place." Ambassador: Looks like they are better brāhmaṇas than... Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: I agree with you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Ambassador: Because there is a... The definition of brāhmaṇa, of course, is made by Buddha's said: (Sanskrit ) *Prabhupāda: No, in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. And Bhāgavata says, Ambassador: Oh. Kibā vipra kiba śūdra... *Prabhupāda: Kibā vipra kibā nyāsī śūdra kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa*-tattva-vettā, tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. He becomes spiritual master. It doesn't matter what he is. Śūdra, or vipra, it doesn't matter. The Rāmānanda Rāya, he was a śūdra. According to social position, he was a śūdra. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu took lessons from him. Ambassador: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is in the Eighth Chapter of the Madhya Khaṇḍa. Ambassador: So I'll remember it, sir. Prabhupāda: Thank you, sir. Ambassador: And if I'm able to come for some meetings, I'll come. If I do not, that means only I am busy, you know. Because it's a little busy. But I think some of the members of our embassy will come. Prabhupāda: No, you... Ambassador: No, I mean to the functions. Prabhupāda: Functions. Ambassador: We'll try to come whichever is we are able to come, you know, from the embassy... Prabhupāda: That, of course, you are... Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. Ambassador: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Jaya. So give him... [break] (end). Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this gentleman is Dr. Christian... Devotee: Hauser? Paramahaṁsa: Oh, I see. And he's a very good friend of Gauracandra. He's a devotee from Amsterdam. And he's a professional psychiatrist. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda's just saying his mantra, Gāyatrī. Paramahaṁsa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: So very glad to see you. [break] Dr. Hauser: You see, when I met George, he was a very, what do you call it, person that hadn't found anything very specific in life. He floated about very much and he... Now when I met him yesterday he was very, he seemed very happy and very sure of himself and what he was doing, and that made me very happy. I thought that was something very nice. I liked him very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original status of the living entity. Just like a son is conscious always that "I am the son of such and such person." This consciousness is natural. So living entities, when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Because we are all parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. It cannot be broken. A person may go mad. But when he's cured, he immediately understands that "I belong to such and such family, such and such gentleman's son." That is natural. Similarly in the contact of this material nature, the spiritual spark, living entity, he's in madness. You are a psychiatrist. You know very well. Every man is more or less a madman. Dr. Hauser: Or he has the germ within himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. We say in a Bengali poetry: Dr. Hauser: Ghostly haunted? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Possessed. Dr. Hauser: Oh yes. But that's very often a symptom of a, of a psychosis that they feel that they are persecuted by, by foreign powers or by... *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Foreign powers, yes. So this is called ghostly haunted. So our material conception of life, this is also ghostly haunted, madness. "I am Christian. I am Hindu. I am Muslim. I am Englishman. I am German." These are all conception of ghostly haunted. Because spirit soul is pure. In the Vedic language it is said: asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The spirit soul has no connection with such designations. Just like in dream we see so many things. But it has nothing to do with me. So this is night dream. At night, we forget all these things about the day dream. "I am this, I am that. I am this family*-member. I am his father. I am his husband." And so on, so on. At night, when dream, are in a different situation. And we forget everything. And again, in daytime, we forget everything of the night dream. We come another dream. So this is also dream. That is also dream. I am simply observing. In daytime I am seeing some dream, gross dream, and at nighttime I'm seeing some subtle dream. But seer, I am. Under different condition, I am seeing different things. I think you treats this madness. He's sees things in different way, in different positions. Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone is mad. Anyone who is in material contact, he is mad. So we are trying to take him out of this dreaming condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Hauser: But does he stop dreaming? I mean, substantially, does he stop, stop, does one stop dreaming? Prabhupāda: Yes. Stop means... Because dreaming means that is not my actual occupation. Dreaming means that. I am separate from the dreaming condition. So if one stops this dreaming condition, then he's cured. Dr. Hauser: But the dreaming of the night also has another function, according to my... *Prabhupāda: No. Dreaming at night, dreaming at day. The same thing. The pattern is different. Pattern is different. If you think that you are Englishman, you are Swedish, or if you are Hindu, you are Muslim, that is also dream. You are none of this. As much as you are none of those dreaming things at night. But due to our madness, sometimes we take: "This is fact," sometimes we take: "That is fact." But none of them are facts. Under different condition, we accept them as facts. But none of them are facts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means: sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When one becomes freed from all designations. Upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Completely free from all designation. Just like in dream I think I have become now king. I am the proprietor of a factory. But none of them. It is only dream. Similarly, in day dream I am thinking I am the father of this family, I am the mother of this family, I am this, I am that. That is all dreaming. So one has to become free from this dreaming condition. That is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], liberated from all kinds of false designation. Designation... Designation means false... Dr. Hauser: But some of these false, false designations also are the machinery of a society. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also false. Dr. Hauser: Although they're false, but they, they sort of drive the society on. Haṁsadūta: Although, although these designations are false, they are driving on a whole society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: The whole society's driving on so many... Prabhupāda: Therefore we call it is illusion, māyā. Just like I showed you. Haṁsadūta: Yes, the reflection. Prabhupāda: Reflection. I, in morning walk, the sun was reflected in a glass exactly it is brilliant as sun. So I showed him: "This is called māyā, illusion. There is no sun, but it appears like sun. Exactly. And it is illuminating also." Reflection of the moon. So one who is less intelligent, he'll see: "Oh, here is a sun, another sun." So he's a madman. One who sees the sun reflection in the glass as sun, he's illusioned. He's mad. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is also psychiatrist movement. Dr. Hauser: Is that a...? Haṁsadūta: Psychiatric. Paramahaṁsa: Psychiatric movement. Dr. Hauser: Oh, yes, yes. In a way... I... Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. We are taking away a person from the illusionary stage to the real stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Hauser: But it also seems to me that you have, by gaining this consciousness, you can skip a lot of hard work that it takes in ordinary analysis or in a group therapy, for example... Prabhupāda: No hard work. Dr. Hauser: You have to work a lot with yourself to gain... Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Hauser: ...insight. Prabhupāda: It is very easy, very easy. Just like we, we recommend this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Anyone can chant. Even child can chant. Haṁsadūta: His point is that we, our processes skips all this work that they do in an ordinary psychiatric ward or... Dr. Hauser: No. Yes. Or in specific processes which are directed towards insight, the same kind of insight that I imagine you are striving for. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We ask them to refrain from four prohibitive principles. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating, no intoxication. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Refrain from these prohibitions. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And he becomes sane, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Very easy. Dr. Hauser: Yeah, it sounds easy. I hope it works. Prabhupāda: You see all the examples. Well, the same... I have not given them any bribe or anything. Dr. Hauser: No, no, no. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That they'll talk in my favor. But talk with them. Dr. Hauser: Yes, I've talked to them, and they... That's why I'm here because I'm not, I'm... Prabhupāda: But the process is very simple. Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: And we don't charge anything. You charge, of course, some... Dr. Hauser: Oh yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But we don't charge anything. Free. I began this treatment in New York, and it is coming effective. Haṁsadūta: All over the world. *Prabhupāda: I think you should adopt this means. A simple method. Don't charge anything. Simply ask him to do this. He'll be cured. (pause) Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means completely cured. Mala means dirty things. And nirmala means just opposite, no dirty things. Nirmalam. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are freed from all dirty things, then it can be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Hauser: One, one very normal problem that I meet very often in patients is the security to feel that one can believe in something, a security of... Always there is... Very often there is an ambivalence. "Should I believe? Should I not believe? I have a, a..." Swaying to and fro. Prabhupāda: No. Believe... There is no question of believe. Suppose you are hungry. I give you some food. I say: "You are hungry. Take this food." So when you take this food, you'll believe that: "Yes, my hunger is now satisfied. I'm getting strength." That is belief. So you are hungry, and if I give you some food, if you don't eat, then how you can believe that your hunger is now satisfied? You must eat. So we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So why not chant? Where is the loss? If there is any gain, let me take it. That is belief. If I say: "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." so you have got tongue, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you chant, you'll believe me, because the result will be there. There is no difficulty. But if you say: "No, I shall not chant," then, then you suffer. What can be done? Anyone can chant. The child chants. If you say: "I don't believe in it. I cannot chant it." So many words. And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. You take so much trouble. "I cannot chant. I don't believe in it." And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. So it is whose fault? I say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." If you say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," immediately, the belief begins. And if you say: "No, no, I cannot chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. I don't believe in it." What can be done? That, that will be taken as misfortune. He's being requested to chant two words. Instead of two words, he'll repeat twenty words. But due to his misfortune, he'll not chant these two words. That is a misfortune. Dr. Hauser: Yes. But isn't there something else beyond just the chanting? I mean is...? Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. Then there are many things, ocean. Ānandāmbudhi. Ānandāmbudhi means ocean of blissfulness. So come to the shore, touch the water. First of all. Pacific Ocean. Then gradually you understand. If you remain aloof, "No, I shall not touch," then how you can understand what is Pacific Ocean? Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see that. Prabhupāda: Ambudhi. Ambudhi means ocean. Dr. Hauser: Means...? Prabhupāda: Ocean. Devotee: Ocean. Dr. Hauser: Ocean. *Prabhupāda: Ānandāmbudhi. Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanam. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. Dr. Hauser: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So our material disease means unclean heart. So we have to cleanse the heart. And this is the process. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam. You are Swedish? Dr. Hauser: Yes, I'm Swede. Yeah. Prabhupāda: But you can speak English very nicely. Dr. Hauser: I lived in South America for about five years. Prabhupāda: Johannesburg. What is called? South America. Oh, South Africa. Śrutakīrti: South America. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, Johannesburg, South Africa. Yeah. Prabhupāda: You lived in South America? Dr. Hauser: In Brazil, yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Brazil. Dr. Hauser: And I went to an English school there. Prabhupāda: We have got our temple in Mexico. Devotee: And in Caracas. Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Śrutakīrti: Caracas also. Prabhupāda: Caracas. Paramahaṁsa: And Trinidad. Prabhupāda: Trinidad. Dr. Hauser: When did this movement start in the western hemisphere? Haṁsadūta: 1966, in New York City. The teachings are standard, the teachings of this movement are standard, coming down from the original source, Kṛṣṇa, the original speaker. So it is very scientific. It's not manufactured. Today's science... Just like psychoanalysis, so many things, they are created recently. And so there are so many experiments and theories changing every day. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is different in that it is the standard science for understanding the self. It's been practiced for hundreds, thousands, thousands years. And it has been proved successful by the ācāryas or the saintly teachers. So the same thing which was practiced many, many hundreds and thousands of years ago is being practiced today, and the same result is being achieved. This is the difference between Kṛṣṇa consciousness and..., Kṛṣṇa conscious science, spiritual science, and material science. The spiritual science requires no speculation or experimentation. But one has to accept it from the right, the authorized source. Dr. Hauser: Yes. And it was that point I was taking up here, that for some people, accepting things... Haṁsadūta: Everyone has to accept some, somebody. They either accept you or their mother, their father, somebody. At every moment, some, someone has to be accepted as authority for something. So what is the best authority? This should be the question. If I have to accept some authority, either here or there, then which is the best authority? This should be the point. Are you the best authority or this man or this man or this man...? Or who should be the best authority? The best authority is that authority which is perfect. That is God. God is perfect. So this is our, our, this is the foundation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that God, He is perfect. Whatever He gives as instruction, that should be accepted. But if we don't agree to that, then we have to take instruction from someone else. And that is bound to be imperfect. Isn't it? Because we are working with imperfect senses, seeing, hearing. So whatever our conclusions may be, they're going to imperfect. Prabhupāda: Because it has began from imperfect. Therefore conclusion must be imperfect. Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if we begin from the perfect, the conclusion will be perfect. What are the four defects? Explain. Haṁsadūta: Uh, four de... Every conditioned soul, you or I, anyone, born in this material world, he's defective by four things. He has got imperfect senses. Just like you don't see what's happening beyond the wall. So this is imperfection of the senses. There are so many examples. The next thing is you're subjected to be illusioned. You may accept a thing for real which is not real. Just like we accept the body as self, but we are not the body. The body is a lump of matter. We are simply witnessing the changes of the body, but we are not the... So this is illusion. Then... Prabhupāda: Mistakes. Haṁsadūta: He's subjected to make mistakes. He'll make a mistake. Everybody knows. To err is human, right? And he... Prabhupāda: Cheating. Haṁsadūta: Has a propensity for cheating. Propensity for cheating means that although he's imperfect senses, subject to make mistake and he's illusioned, he will write books giving... Prabhupāda: Instructions. Haṁsadūta: Instructions. Because... But he's not qualified. So he's cheating. Dr. Hauser: He's cheating. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Dr. Hauser: He's also cheating himself. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Cheating himself and... Prabhupāda: Cheating others. Haṁsadūta: ...cheating others. Prabhupāda: But that is going on. Recently it happened in Los Angeles, one big professor came to lecture there, and he has got Nobel Prize. I forgot his name. He has written one book, Chemical Evolution. So he was speaking on that Chemical Evolution, and his theory is life begins from four chemicals. So he gave lectures. After that, there is one student. He's also Doctor in Chemistry. He's my disciple. So he asked that professor that: "If I give you the chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He replied: "That I cannot say." He says that life begins from these four chemicals. And he lectured hours. And when he was asked: "Suppose I give you these four chemicals, will you be able to produce life?" He answered, "That I cannot say." Just see. Is it not cheating? He's, he's saying that life is produced from these chemicals. Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: And when he's offered these chemicals, he's not certain whether he'll be able to produce life. Is it not cheating? Dr. Hauser: Yes, he's jumping to conclusions, one can say. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Hauser: He's jumping to conclusions. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, he's not certain about producing life from those chemicals. But still he's lecturing. Is it not cheating? Dr. Hauser: Not cheating, no... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. Because he cannot produce life. Actually, he cannot, but he's lecturing on this basis. Dr. Hauser: But he has produced four stages of life. Prabhupāda: Ehh? Dr. Hauser: Not real life, but the proteins that life is made of... Prabhupāda: But we are concerned with the real life. We are consider, concerned with the real life. If you can produce one real life, a small ant, not human being, then I shall think that you are successful in your program. But that you cannot do. Why do you talk nonsense? Therefore you are cheating. Why should he say: "That I cannot say," if he's not confident. That means cheating. Everyone is doing that. He's not confident about his theory, and he's speaking long, long speech. And people are fools. They are hearing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. One blind man is leading many blind man. What is the benefit? The leader has no eyes, and he's leading many blind men. What is the use? Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Yes. *Prabhupāda: And these so*-called scientists will reply: "Yes, we are trying. In future..." In future, everyone can expect future. But the hearsay is that: "Trust no future, however pleasant." Why future? In past we could not do. At present we cannot not do. What is the guarantee that in future we'll be able to do? There is no history that anyone has produced life from chemicals. What do your, what do you think, that life is a product of chemicals? Do you mean to say? Dr. Hauser: That is what I've been taught. Yes. About the evolution of the earth. And... Prabhupāda: Therefore, if... Dr. Hauser: ...all the different stages of life. Prabhupāda: Do you think that's a fact... Dr. Hauser: It's not a fact. I don't know whether it's a fact. I... But that's... Prabhupāda: Then that means illusioned. You are not confident, but you accept that theory. This is illusion. Dr. Hauser: But... Yes. But... *Prabhupāda: But you should apply your reason, from practical life, whether life is produced from matter, or matter is produced from life. Our proposition is: matter is produced from life, not life is produced from matter. In the Vedānta*-sūtra it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates. Now that Absolute Truth, whether he's life or dead stone. So that is discussed: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. That Absolute Truth must be cognizant. So as soon as you say cognizant, then He's alive. Abhijñaḥ. That, that means if I say: "I have produced all these things that is within the room," then means I must have brain. I must be experienced how to do it. How I can be dead, matter? Has the matter has got such thing? The origin of creation must be a living being. Dr. Hauser: But somewhere... If I can... But in this, there is also the creation of life, when... Prabhupāda: Where is that evidence, creation of life from matter? Is there any evidence in the history? Dr. Hauser: No, but as we know, the evolution of life has gone through different stages of... How do you...? Prabhupāda: Darwin's theory. Do you mean to say, Darwin's theory? Dr. Hauser: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Darwin was a number*-one nonsense. Yes. Rascal. He has confused the whole world. Dr. Hauser: Hmm. Why...? Prabhupāda: Evolution of matter. Matter cannot evolve. That is not possible. Dr. Hauser: But evolution of life... Prabhupāda: What is that life? That is different from matter. That is a different energy. That I am speaking. Matter is... Life is the origin of matter. The evolution is not of the matter, but of the life. That Darwin does not know. Therefore I say nonsense. He does not know that. Dr. Hauser: Yes. But I feel in the... Prabhupāda: Just like this is an apartment. So from this apartment, you go to another apartment. So it does not mean that this apartment has evolved to that apartment. I, the person, I create that apartment, or I prefer that apartment. Not that this apartment has evolved into that apartment. Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Darwin's nonsense is there. He is changing the apartment. Apartment is becoming a different apartment. That is not a fact. Just try to understand. This room cannot develop into another room. But I, the resident of this room, I can go from this apartment to another apartment. Or I can create another apartment. This is evolution. Dr. Hauser: And I can create a bigger apartment. Prabhupāda: Yes, bigger, smaller, as I like. Not necessarily bigger. That is also another nonsense. Dr. Hauser: And my intelligence might grow also. Prabhupāda: Intelligence, maybe. But there must be means. You may be very intelligent, but if you have no means to erect another nice apartment, how it will? Dr. Hauser: Trial and error. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Hauser: Trial and error. *Prabhupāda: Just like you have got the desire to purchase another dress, garment, nicer, but if you have no money, then how you can purchase? You have to purchase something inferior. So these different species of life is the evolution of the living soul according to his karma. That is Vedic instruction. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. So I am a living entity. If I want to go to better condition of life, then I'll have to pay for it. Better condition is there already. Not this inferior condition changes into that better condition. That is another thing. Just like the condition in moon planet is different from the condition of this earthly planet. That is already there. You have to transfer yourself from this planet to that planet. So that point is missing in Darwin's theory. He says that body is evolving. That is nonsense. The body is evolving, then why the monkey body is not producing a human body at the present moment? Where is the evidence? The monkeys are already there. Where is the evidence in the zoo that a monkey has produced a human being? Do you think it is all right? Dr. Hauser: Yes, that, that life might have taken different forms, that I'm quite sure of. And that the human being might not have existed for about a hundred thousand years ago. Prabhupāda: No human beings exists eternal. He's existing. But he accepting, he's accepting different situation. Paramahaṁsa: There's proof of this in that recently there was a discovery in South America. I think it was in Kenya. Where they discovered a skeletal remains that were over hundreds of thousands of years old that was pre, what is it? Mag... What is it? *Haṁsadūta: Cro*-magnon. *Paramahaṁsa: Cro*-magnon, and it was the same human body as now, as we have now. They have discovered. And with this discovery, they say, completely all of Darwin's theories have been destroyed. This is a fact. Immediately see. He overlooked. He says: "I do not see any proof that human beings lived, millions of years ago. Therefore I think apes were existing." But what proof does he have? And how they have discovered bones and they have proven by tests that Cro-magnon era there was the same human body. It's a fact. And completely his, all his theories have been destroyed. Because he again, he was working with his illusory senses. Dr. Hauser: Hmm. But there are the dinosaurs for example. The dinosaurs, yes. Which died and disappeared from the earth. And that is also a kind of evolution that has taken place. Haṁsadūta: He says there are these prehistoric animals like dinosaurs, these big, gigantic animals, they are no longer existing now, but they existed at one time. So there, there was some evolution there. Dr. Hauser: Yes. Haṁsadūta: But the point is Vedic, Vedic conclusion is... Prabhupāda: No, but, apart from Vedic conclusion, this example, that practically, when I go from this apartment to another apartment, so this apartment does not become another apartment. I go from this apartment to another apartment. He's missing that "I". Or "you". That is his nonsense. Dr. Hauser: He's only talking about apartments. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his rascaldom. Dr. Hauser: Yes, I can see what you mean. Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not, he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body. Dr. Hauser: But some of this cheating, as you call it, must have, have still been a great use to mankind because it has not been proven at the time when this theory has been evoked by some scientist, it has not been proven that he's right, but he works according to this principle that he has got, and then later... Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in *Bhāgavatam* that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not? Dr. Hauser: But I don't really understand. Prabhupāda: In the jungle, in the forest,... Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...the lion is considered to be the king of animals. So lion is also animal, only big animal. That's all. Dr. Hauser: So you mean the scientist is a big lion. Prabhupāda: Yes. A big rascal. That's it. A big rascal. A big rascal is eulogized by small rascals. That's all. Dr. Hauser: Seducing a small rascal. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Hauser: Seducing a small rascal. Prabhupāda: Another small rascal. This is the position. Everything is going on like that. Not only in science, philosophy, religion, sociology, politics. The, a big rascal and small rascal. That's all. Dr. Hauser: But you must evoke quite a lot of feelings when you say, for example, that Einstein was a very big rascal. Prabhupāda: No. He believed in God. Yes. He believed in God. He was not a rascal. A sane man. Paramahaṁsa: Carl Jung also. Prabhupāda: Yes. He believed in God. Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: He tried to find out the brain of God. So he's not rascal. He's sane man. Those who are defying God, they're rascal, demons. Einstein believed in God. Yes. There are many scientists, they believe in God. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... Unless one is God conscious, he's a rascal. Immediately, take it. We take it like that. As soon as you say godless, atheist, oh, a rascal. That's all. It may be the understanding of God is not so perfect. But he thinks there is God. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. And the demons will never accept God. Just like in Russia. All set of rascals. They do not believe in God. Dr. Hauser: But the interest... The religious interest in Russia is, is greater than in any other country in Europe. But not the, the leaders are not... Prabhupāda: I say the leaders. Not only in Russia. Everywhere. The leaders, the rascal leaders spoiling the whole world situation. In India also. In India, by nature, they are aloof from these four principles of sinful life. Eighty percent of the population, by nature. But government, at the present moment, the leaders, they're inducing them to eat meat, to drink. And gambling also. Introducing. Gambling. Government is issuing that gambling cards. Because government means some rascal just like Nixon has gone to the power. Now he's proved he's a rascal. So everywhere the government leaders means all rascals. Dr. Hauser: Although Nixon says, in every television speech, that he is a God believer. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Hauser: Nixon says, at least, that he is a God believer. Prabhupāda: That is his politics. Dr. Hauser: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Maybe God believer, but... Dr. Hauser: Are you leaving for... *Paramahaṁsa: Six*-ten. We leave in ten, fifteen minutes. Would you care to go? Dr. Hauser: No, I have to go back to my, to this emergency ward. One of my colleagues was, were ill today, and I had to replace him. Paramahaṁsa: As far as Nixon is concerned, we can see from his activities that he may say that he's a believer in God, but his actions prove contrary. You see, that's... You see you can judge a person by his activities. With someone like Śrīla Prabhupāda, you can judge that actually he is the only person I have ever met within my short span who is actually... [break] Dr. Hauser: ...I was also thinking that it was a little bit hard for me to get into the language or the Indian words. And I felt that one has to be rather intellectually sharp to be able to go into these matters. Prabhupāda: What is that difficult word? Dr. Hauser: Intellectually... Prabhupāda: What is that difficult word? You are feeling difficult. Haṁsadūta: The Indian words means Sanskrit words. Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit word we have given English equivalents. So what is the difficulty? Dr. Hauser: It's not that, it's not that... I can understand them but... and I can get the translations and... but then... Prabhupāda: We have given the equivalent of each word. Dr. Hauser: Hm. Prabhupāda: And then translation and then purport. Dr. Hauser: No, but what I mean to say is that this is knowledge that can be spread in this way, it must be spread to people who are rather accustomed to reading, to getting... Prabhupāda: No. If he reads he will be accustomed. Reading will make him accustomed. Dr. Hauser: Well the reading customs, for example, in Sweden are very, you know, very limited to newspapers and television and it will take them... Prabhupāda: That we have explained. Dr. Hauser: Yeah? *Prabhupāda: We have explained. Find out this verse, tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ. Yes, first of all you see the index? Śrutakīrti: What this? Prabhupāda: Yes, yellow book, you know. Śrutakīrti: First Canto. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavaḥ. Śrutakīrti: (reads verse and translation, S.B. 1.5.11) Prabhupāda: You follow? Dr. Hauser: Hm. Prabhupāda: Read it again. Śrutakīrti: (reads the translation again) Dr. Hauser: Yes. Prabhupāda: The newspaper is glorification of this mundane world. You have to transfer your consciousness to understand the glorification of the Supreme. This is transcendental literature. So people have got the tendency to read but they're glorifying this rascal, mundane rascals. So that attitude should be transferred to understand the glorification of the Supreme Lord. That will be (indistinct). That we are presenting. We are presenting a literature exactly like the newspaper. They are glorifying some Nixon and Dixon. We are glorifying Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. That is the difference. If Nixon has glorification, how much glorification is there in reserve of the Supreme Lord? Dr. Hauser: But these Nixons and Dixons and Hitlers and... They have a rather... Prabhupāda: That is illusion. We are attached to them. Dr. Hauser: Yes, we are attached to them also because they have power over us. They can persecute us and they can... So it's very... *Prabhupāda: No, the greater power is Kṛṣṇa. If you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he was a five years old boy. He took shelter of Kṛṣṇa and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise his boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pape... [Bg. 18.66]. "I give you protection." So people have no faith although He's God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Kṛṣṇa, what this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom. That is explained in the previous verse. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo, jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham [SB 1.5.10]. Read that, previous to this verse. Śrutakīrti: (reads verse, SB 1.5.10) Prabhupāda: Translation. Śrutakīrti: (reads translation) *Prabhupāda: It is a question of taste. Just see birds, two kinds of birds, crows and the swans, different taste. Therefore we are trying to create taste for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then these crows' place, newspaper, we'll not... We don't read newspaper. We don't touch it unless there is some news of ours. We don't touch it. What is the use of wasting time? They read so big, big bundle of newspaper. But we don't touch them. Oh, we have got (indistinct) literature here. Why should we waste our time in the crows' manifestation? The same politics, same Nixon, same Dixon, same Hitler. It is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. Things which have already been chewed and thrown away, another person is crying, "Let me see if there's any juice." But you have already chewed. What juice you find there? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], again and again, same politics, same new leader, same he's a rascal. Just like Nixon advertises in news, "America now requires Nixon." So America accepted him and now America doesn't want him. Again another Nixon will come. This is going on, punaḥ punaḥ, again and again, chewing the chewed. The people are not disgusted but we have tasted all these rascals. Why another Nixon? Dr. Hauser: There doesn't seem to be any accumulation of knowledge. *Prabhupāda: They have no brain. The same thing, the crows. So therefore they have to be enlightened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then they will be able to find out some big leader, nice leader for them. There are so many things. You are educated. You should try to understand our philosophy. There are so many things to be learned from our... They're not sentimentally dancers only. They've got logic, philosophy, science, everything. Otherwise how we are writing so many books? Just see, ancient word, how they are nicely, these two verses we have read. How full of meaning. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśo. Harer, pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham [SB 1.5.10], each word has volumes of meanings. There are 18,000 verses in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And each word you'll find enlivening. Each word. It's such a nice literature. One verse contains actually sixteen words. So 18,000 multiplied by sixteen, how much? Dr. Hauser: 18,000... Prabhupāda: 18,000 verses multiplied by sixteen. How many words? Dr. Hauser: 280,000. Yes. Prabhupāda: 280,000 words and each word you'll find a new light. That is (indistinct). Each word you'll find. Dr. Hauser: Are these going to be translated into Swedish too? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you do. (laughter) We have got the... Śrutakīrti: You can do that. Prabhupāda: Some Sanskrit scholar in Swedish language must come forward. Then it can be done. But he must be a good scholar because each word is meaningful. Yes. Just like beginning of the Bhāgavata, janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1]. Janmādi. So this one word has volumes of meaning. Janmādi means beginning from janma. So beginning from janma, but, how many things are there? Generally, birth janmastiti lat(?), birth, then you stay for some time and then you become vanquished. This body. Janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1]. Asya of this material world. Janma, creation, then situation, then annihilation. Now how many volumes of books you can write on these three words? How this universe was created? How it is being maintained and how it will be annihilated? These three words. How many books you can write? Dr. Hauser: Infinity. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhāgavata verse, janmādy asya [SB 1.1.1], asya janmādi (indistinct) concise word but volumes of meanings. Volumes. Each word is like that. Vidyā bhāgavata*-vali(?). Therefore one's learning is complete when he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Otherwise he remains imperfect, in spite of all learning. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], from where? Now the creation of this cosmic world, from where? But you do not know from where. This is explained in Bhāgavatam. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. That is actually true. In this way simply if you analyze one verse, you'll find each word is full of volumes of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayāt [SB 1.1.1]. Like the creation, anvayāt, directly and indirectly, itarataś cārtheṣu, in the matter of understanding, abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means completely cognizant. That is the Absolute Truth. He knows everything-how this universe is created, how it is maintained, how it annihilated, directly and indirectly. Just like, I always, regular, everyday thing, when I am massaged by my student, I see so many veins so I think that I claim, "This is my leg," but I do not know what are these veins. Directly I know this is my leg, but indirectly I do not know how this leg is working with these veins and nerves and muscles. I do not know. But so far God is concerned, He has created. He knows every veins and everything. That is called abhijñaḥ. In this way you analyze every word, you'll find volumes of meaning. The next question, "Where you got this experience?" You say He's abhijñaḥ, He knows everything. To get experience one must have teacher. But the next word is svarāṭ, He's experienced and self-sufficiency, svarāṭ, independent. He hasn't got to go anywhere for experiencing. In this way each word is full of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ, tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. We have very shortly described this one verse. I think five, six pages. You've got that verse? Śrutakīrti: Yes. Right here. (showing book to the psychiatrist) Here's the translation, the verse. Prabhupāda: That is very short description. Śrutakīrti: Short. (laughs) ...for the next verse also. *Prabhupāda: So it is so meaningful. All learned scholars of the world must read Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam if they want to actually good for themselves and good for the world. Śrutakīrti: (indistinct) if we can leave at seven o'clock, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say, I leave. Śyāmasundara: It's seven o'clock now. Dr. Hauser: It's seven now. Śyāmasundara: I have five minutes to. Haṁsadūta: Why don't you come with us. Dr. Hauser: I can't. I'm very sorry but I would have very much liked to. Haṁsadūta: Oh, I see. Śrutakīrti: Tomorrow morning Śrīla Prabhupāda's leaving at 8:30, if you'd like to come. He has a morning walk at six o'clock if you'd like to come for that. Dr. Hauser: Before I leave. Prabhupāda: That is not so important. Nobody can rise at six o'clock. Dr. Hauser: Well, I can sometimes. It has been a pleasure meeting you. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you very much for your time also. Dr. Hauser: Thank you. (end) Interviews with Macmillan and various English Reporters -- September 12, 1973, London Prabhupāda: I have no spoon. Haṁsadūta: Someone's bringing it. Mukunda's bringing it. Prabhupāda: Get it. Give me little water. Revatīnandana: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Water. Revatīnandana: What? Water. Prabhupāda: Yes, come here. *Reporter (1): I wonder if I could ask you first of all to tell me what is the central point of the teaching of Bhagavad*-gītā? Prabhupāda: Central point is to understand God. People have become so foolish. They have forgotten to know about God, know about himself, what he is. Everyone is under the impression that "I am this body," which he's not. He's spirit soul. They're so much in ignorance, and there is no education. Even big, big professors. Prof. Kotofsky, in Russia, he told me, "Swamiji, after this body's finished, everything is finished." That is not the fact. Reporter (1): Can you tell me who is Lord Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, the Supreme Personality of God. Reporter (1): And what will it profit us if we get to know about Him? Prabhupāda: The profit means you'll be saved from the material existence. Material existence means repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease. Reporter (1): How does He speak? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (1): How does He speak to you or to us? *Prabhupāda: He was present five thousand years ago. He came on this planet and gave instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā. So that is recorded. *Reporter (1): Why have you written Bhagavad*-gītā as it really is? Why? *Prabhupāda: As it is, because there are many foolish rascals, they interpret unnecessarily. Just like Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is a place in India, still existing. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. The meaning is clear, that "Kurukṣetra is a religious place and there, the Pāṇḍavas and the Kurus, they assembled together for fighting." But many so-called leaders, political leaders, scholars, they have interpreted, "Kurukṣetra means the body." Reporter (1): Can you tell me the chant? Will you recite the chant to me? And then tell me why it's used so often by the followers? Prabhupāda: Which one? Reporter (1): The Krishna chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (1): Can you tell me...? There's been an awful lot in these last two years said about the Jesus Movement. How does that sort of line up with Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Jesus Movement. If you can explain, then I can speak. What is that Jesus Movement, I do not know. Reporter (1): Well, do you know very much about Jesus? Prabhupāda: Jesus, I know. Reporter (1): Tell me about him. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Jesus, the son of God, he's representative of God. So we have got all respect and honor for him. We worship him. But I do not know what is about Jesus Movement. Reporter (1): Tell me a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will you? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means the same, Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, which was spoken five thousand years ago by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself, we are preaching the same Bhagavad-gītā. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is accepted, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are preaching that "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." Reporter (1): Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness genuine? Prabhupāda: Then we are simply wasting our time, do you think? By preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do you think we are wasting our time? We are so fools? Why do you ask this nonsense question, "genuine"? Unless it is genuine, why we are working so hard? Reporter (1): Why is it so popular among young people? Prabhupāda: Because they have got knowledge. Young people are receptive. Young people, education is given during youth time, not in old age. Old men cannot take any education. Whatever he has learned, he'll take another period of fifty years to forget that. Therefore sometimes it is called "old fools." But young men, they are receptive, they have got brain. When they understand that "Here is something," they understand. Reporter (1): Many thanks. I'm very grateful... [break] Prabhupāda: Thank you. Haṁsadūta: Haribol. [break] This gentleman's from the Sunday Mirror. Prabhupāda: Oh. Haṁsadūta: His newspaper, is that right? Reporter (2): That's right. Ah... Prabhupāda: Oh, Sunday Mirror, they published, some, something about us... Haṁsadūta: I think you published something about us a few weeks ago, about the manor out at Letchmore Heath. Reporter (2): That's right. Yes. With a lot of pictures. Were you there at the time? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (2): You were there at the time? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): How've you... Where have you been since then? Prabhupāda: No, I went to Sweden. I have come yesterday from Sweden. I was in Sweden. Reporter (2): Yes, since then? And now your back again for the book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now I have come again back to..., yesterday, and again I am going back to India. Reporter (2): How long are you going to stay there? Prabhupāda: In Sweden? Reporter (2): In India, when you go? Prabhupāda: Oh, in India, I shall stay about one week. Then I shall go to Japan. Reporter (2): Do you find, uh, you must find it very, very difficult travelling all the time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): What don't you like about it? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: What don't you like about travelling? Prabhupāda: No, I like. Reporter (2): Oh, you like it. Do you always go...? Prabhupāda: Yes, but because I am old man, it is little troublesome for me. Otherwise, I like travelling. Reporter (2): What, what were you doing, what did you do before this, before 1966? Prabhupāda: I was retired from my family life. I was living in a holy place called Vṛndāvana. I retired from my family life in 1954. Then, in 1959, I took sannyāsa order. This is called renounced order of life. No family connection . Reporter (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: And then I started for American in 1965. And then my movement was started from U.S.A in 1966. Reporter (2): From the U.S.A. Could you tell me why you think the Western world has espoused your sort of movement now, has been keen on looking to the East for spiritual... Prabhupāda: Do they, actually? Reporter (2): Why is that, do you think? Prabhupāda: That he can explain. He's Western people. Reporter (2): But I mean, how about in your view? Haṁsadūta: He wants to hear it from you. Prabhupāda: They are getting some substance. You see. Just like here is a sweetmeat. If you have never tasted a sweetmeat before and if you are supplied a nice sweetmeat, naturally you appreciate and take it. Reporter (2): But why, why 1966? I mean what was there, what was there, special about the Sixties? Prabhupāda: And before that, this thing was not administered. Reporter (2): I mean the mood of the time might have been right then. I mean was there something about that age that made it especially attractive to the young people? Prabhupāda: Young people, even Young boys, they also take. So generally teenagers, they to...Teenagers, they take it very nicely. Reporter (2): Why was that? I mean what was there, was there something special about the 1960's that made it more likely that people would go for...? Prabhupāda: But before that, this movement was not there in the western countries. Reporter (2): I know that. But there's got to be a mood of the times before something like this can catch on. Prabhupāda: Well, that, not that time. Any time. This sweetmeat is sweet all the time. It is not that at a particular time it is sweet. Reporter (2): But people have got to be hungry to eat it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes, hungry, everyone is hungry. Because in the Western countries, unless they are hungry for spiritual consciousness, why they are hippies? They are frustrated. They are not going to live like their fathers and forefathers. Reporter (2): Frustrated? Prabhupāda: Yes. This material civilization, ultimately it will be frustration because... Just like... Try to understand... You are a person. You are covered with this coat and shirt. If I simply take care of your coat and shirt, and if I do not give you something to eat, how long you'll be happy? Reporter (2): Not very long. Prabhupāda: That's right. Reporter (2): Do you take this throne with you all the time? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (2): No. How, how does it come to be here? Haṁsadūta: We have a temple. So we bring it. Reporter (2): And this is called? Haṁsadūta: This is called a vyāsāsana. Reporter (2): And for... Haṁsadūta: The spiritual... Reporter (2): A person, it's for a person, isn't it? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the spiritual master sits. Reporter (2): Nobody ever else sits upon that platform. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter (2): What happens to it when he's not here. Haṁsadūta: Nobody sits on it. Reporter (2): It's still there, but...? Haṁsadūta: Oh yeah. Reporter (2): And lastly, a very trivial question. The uniform, the haircut, why is that? Prabhupāda: This shaving? Reporter (2): Yes, why? Prabhupāda: It is very nice. It makes the head cool, not with big bunch of hair, burden. We feel it burden. When there is bunch of hair, we feel it is an extra burden. Reporter (2): An extra burden on the mind? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): Makes it, weighs heavily on the mind? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sometimes you have to take... Reporter (2): So that's the reason why? It makes the mind lighter? Prabhupāda: No. Actually if you keep clean yourself, then your mind is also clean. Reporter (2): But it is... Is it really because hair presses down on the mind? Is that true? Haṁsadūta: It's a burden, troublesome. Reporter (2): I mean a physical burden. Haṁsadūta: Just like you have to get some, some hair cream and then a comb and a mirror and... Reporter (2): Well, I don't. I just get up and go like that. But I mean, I mean, I mean... Haṁsadūta: You understand the point. Reporter (2): Well, I mean. I do and I don't. I mean physically... Haṁsadūta: Very clean, very clean... Reporter (2): ...physically, it makes the hair, it makes the mind lighter. Is that true? Haṁsadūta: Very clean, cool. Natural, practical. Reporter (2): No, I know, but I mean, this thing about it actually weighing down on the mind, is that fair to say? Haṁsadūta: No. Reporter (2): It's not fair to say? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): It is fair to say. Prabhupāda: If you keep yourself very clean and light, then your mind will work very nicely. Reporter (2): Better than if it was being weighed down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (2): That's fair, isn't it? Haṁsadūta: It's a matter of cleanliness. Not when... Reporter (2): But he also says it's a matter of weighing down on the mind. That's fair. *Prabhupāda: It is a Vedic system. All the brāhmaṇas take clean*-shaved. Vedic system. So we are trying to stay in the platform of brahminical culture. Therefore it is one of the essential things. Reporter (2): I understand that. Thank you very much from me for your help. Thank you. Bye, bye. Haṁsadūta: [break] ...A church. Which church? Reporter (3): Methodist Church. Haṁsadūta: Methodist Church. Reporter (3): Which is fairly advanced, really... Prabhupāda: Methodist Church is famous. Haṁsadūta: Methodist Church. Prabhupāda: Yes. I've seen many signboards. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Do you have some questions? Reporter (3): Yes, I have. What, what is the real relationship between Kṛṣṇa consciousness and other religions? Is it that God has many names and...? (Someone comes up, introducing someone) Prabhupāda: (Chuckling:) That's all right. I thank you. Indian Man: Mr. Bose, representing National Herald. Haṁsadūta: Maybe you can move this... Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā. (Bengali) Now, now, Mr. Bose... Let him come first of all. Give him a chair. Mr. Bose, let him come. Reporter (3): I'll come back later. Prabhupāda: Yes, three minutes. He's old man. Reporter (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Haṁsadūta: Shall I take this away? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Bengali) Mr. Bose: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: [break] She's waiting? Then I shall come. Reporter (3): Right, well (indistinct) some publicity. Prabhupāda: No, every religion has got God consciousness. Without God consciousness, there cannot be any religion. But somewhere we find the degrees of consciousness. Just like every living entity has got consciousness. A child has got consciousness, dog has got consciousness, and a human being has got consciousness, but there are degrees. Reporter (3): Do people lose this consciousness, the God...? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (3): Do people lose God consciousness as they grow older? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, unless a person comes to God consciousness, his consciousness is imperfect. Reporter (3): And the actual importance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant, is that in saying the name? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a... Reporter (3): Or is it a... Prabhupāda: ...spiritual process. Reporter (3): ...continuous flow? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a spiritual process because Kṛṣṇa and the name Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa the person and Kṛṣṇa the name, They are nondifferent, Absolute. That is the God's special power. Just like in the material world, if you want water, simply by chanting the name "water," you'll not be benefited. Reporter (3): No. Prabhupāda: But in the spiritual world, the name, "water," and the substance water, is the same. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. So if you chant Kṛṣṇa, you immediately directly contact with Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (3): What do you see as being the future of the world? What will happen? Will there be an end? Prabhupāda: Future, future of the world, because the people are trained up in the bodily consciousness of life, "I am this body." So so long people will remain in bodily consciousness of life, that is animal life. That is not human life. So they have to be educated to spiritual consciousness of life, that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul." Then they'll be benefited. Otherwise, they'll degrade more and more. Reporter (3): Yes, but what do you see happening to the actual world? Do you see any... You know, with Christianity and other religions? Prabhupāda: Eh, what is that? Reporter (3): You know, with Christianity and other religions, the world has... Prabhupāda: The Christianity, if you... Reporter (3): ...a beginning and an end. Prabhupāda: Yes. We also believe that, that the world has a beginning, and it has an end. Anything material. Just like my body, your body. It has got a beginning from the father, mother, and again it will end. So anything material, it has beginning and end. But the, within the body, the spirit soul, the spirit soul has no beginning, no end. Reporter (3): So how long has Kṛṣṇa consciousness been in India, or were you...? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is in India from Vedic age, since a very, very long time. But especially since five thousand years ago when... Reporter (3): So you, you didn't start everything off? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I'm simply presenting in English language. That's all. Reporter (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: It is already there. Reporter (3): Yes. What, what... And can I ask one last question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (3): What do you think of young people who follow the Divine Light Movement. Haṁsadūta: Guru Maharaji. Reporter (3): And... Prabhupāda: That is a bogus. Reporter (3): It's bogus. Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) Reporter (3): What about... How do you know? Have you met him? Prabhupāda: He says that he's God. Reporter (3): Hm. Prabhupāda: Does he not? Reporter (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is a bogus thing. Reporter (3): Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyone who says that: "I am God," he's a rascal. Reporter (3): Yes. Right. And what about the young Christian Revival? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter (3): The Jesus Movement? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: The Jesus Movement. What about it? Prabhupāda: Jaybees? Haṁsadūta: Jesus. Jesus Movement. Prabhupāda: I do not know. I do not know. Reporter (3): You haven't heard of it? Prabhupāda: No, I have no knowledge. Reporter (3): Well, thanks for talking to me. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You have take prasāda. Plate. Reporter (3): Yes, I have. I had some. Prabhupāda: Yes, take prasāda. Reporter (3): No... (pause) English girl: I've committed many sins in this lifetime. How can I make my peace? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Girl: I've committed many sins in this lifetime. How may I make peace? Haṁsadūta: She says she has committed many sins in this lifetime. How she can make peace? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the only remedy. What you are doing now? Girl: Secretary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: Secretary. Haṁsadūta: Secretary. Prabhupāda: Secretary. Haṁsadūta: Typing, typing. Girl: For the Tower. Haṁsadūta: So why not type for Kṛṣṇa? We have got so much to type, books, manuscripts. Serve Kṛṣṇa and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and associate with these devotees. Then everything will be all right. Girl: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Haṁsadūta: Want to go now, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] English Boy: [break] I'm not from a newspaper. So I've got nothing really to ask you. Prabhupāda: Oh. English Boy: I'd like to... Prabhupāda: Which newspaper? English Boy: I'm not from a newspaper. Haṁsadūta: He said he's not from any newspaper, but he would like your blessings. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. English Boy: I do, regularly. Prabhupāda: Oh, you chant it? Very good. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ācchā. Call that Jaya Hari. Haṁsadūta: Jaya Hari. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jaya Hari, no, Jaya Hari. What is the name? Haṁsadūta: Jaya Hari. Prabhupāda: Jaya Hari, eh? So what has happened to you? Jaya Hari: I've been working in London, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But when I go to London temple, I don't see you. Jaya Hari: I've been working for others. Prabhupāda: I, I, I think there is something wrong. What is that? Jaya Hari: Well, you see I've just been very heavily engaged. Prabhupāda: No. Jaya Hari: This reception I've been working on. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jaya Hari: I've been working on this reception also. Prabhupāda: So you are a good boy. You were doing good book selling. Now you have stopped. Why? Jaya Hari: Well, this reception is one of the points for... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jaya Hari: One of the main reasons for having this reception was to help sell the books, also. Prabhupāda: No, I no... You cannot forget your duty. If, if there is some extra duty, that does not mean you shall forget your own duty. So now they are selling books. You also join. Yes. And you have no tilaka. You are just like ordinary boy. Why? Jaya Hari: I don't have time to... Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not good. This is not good. You must be as our representative, with tilaka, as we are dressed. Yes. Don't be deviated. You have got a good opportunity. Don't be deviated by bad association. Yes. You are a good boy. So you must revive to your original position. All right. Thank you. Jaya Hari: Are you pleased by the reception? Prabhupāda: Oh. Jaya Hari: The reception is all right? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: The reception, did you like the reception? Prabhupāda: Ah yes, nice. So what is your question? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. English Boy: I'm trying to spread the word at school. I'm telling all my friends about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Very good. That will help you. All right. So? Prof. Gombrich: [break] ...actually. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: Professor Gombrich. Prabhupāda: Oh. So you have seen our books? Prof. Gombrich: Yes, I have, yes. You are travelling to India, I hear? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Gombrich: You are setting up a university in India? Prabhupāda: In... What is that? Haṁsadūta: Are you establishing a university in India? Prabhupāda: It is not so easy thing. (Hindi) Prof. Gombrich: At Navadvīpa? Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa, yes. Prof. Gombrich: And, uh... Prabhupāda: We have begun teaching, but I do not know when it will become a university. That is a big job. Prof. Gombrich: I see, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Gombrich: Who is teaching there? Prabhupāda: Our students. We have got these books. That's all. Prof. Gombrich: You don't have the Bengali paṇḍitas teaching Sanskrit? *Prabhupāda: At least, at the present moment, we haven't got. They're... Generally, in India, they want to learn English. So, as soon as they learn English, they can read our books. And Sanskrit is also... You have seen? We have given each word meaning, Sanskrit. The pronunciation. Oh yes. Here is the Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Prof. Gombrich: So in Navadvīpa, will the instruction be in English or in Bengali? Prabhupāda: These boys, they do not know Bengali. *Prof. Gombrich: Oh, I see. So it's literally for English*-speaking devotees. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not English*-speaking. They are Bengalis, the students. But they want to learn English. Therefore we are teaching English. *Indian Man: Is this a government*-recognized college now? *Prabhupāda: No. Government recognition means we have to abide by the orders of government. We cannot teach Bhagavad*-gītā only or Bhāgavata. But our aim is to teach... We have got another school in Dallas for small children. There we are Sanskrit, teaching Sanskrit and English. Yes. Prof. Gombrich: Yes. But did you yourself study Sanskrit at Vṛndāvana or...? Prabhupāda: No. We had studied Sanskrit in school, colleges. In our time, Sanskrit was compulsory. In our days. Nowadays, I don't think so... Indian Man: I, I also had compulsory. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit compulsory and additional there was Sanskrit. So I took both, compulsory and additional. Prof. Gombrich: I see. Prabhupāda: Up to my I.A., I regularly studied Sanskrit, and in my B. A., I gave up Sanskrit. I read history. (laughs) No. Not in B.A. B.A., my combination was economics and philosophy. In I.A. I was intermediate, I.A. I had history and Sanskrit. Prof. Gombrich: That was at Calcutta University? Prabhupāda: Yes. Calcutta University, Scottish Church's College. Prof. Gombrich: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta? Prof. Gombrich: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: Oh, you know Scottish Church's College? Prof. Gombrich: I'm afraid not. No. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Gombrich: No, I'm afraid I've only been to Presidency. Prabhupāda: Presidency? Prof. Gombrich: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the Scottish Churches College is also on the same standard, Presidency College. Prof. Gombrich: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are teacher there? No. Prof. Gombrich: I teach in Oxford, yes. Prabhupāda: You teach in Oxford? Prof. Gombrich: Yes. Prabhupāda: But in India went to visit? Prof. Gombrich: Yes, I lived for two years in Ceylon. Prabhupāda: Ceylon? Prof. Gombrich: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Prof. Gombrich: My speciality is Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Buddhism. Prof. Gombrich: Yes. Prabhupāda: A religious student. A specialist in religious, comparative study of religion? Prof. Gombrich: Well, not so much comparative. I main, I really teach Buddhism itself. Prabhupāda: Oh. Prof. Gombrich: Through Sanskrit and Pali. Prabhupāda: Pali, yes. Pali is almost Sanskrit language. Prof. Gombrich: It's not so different, yes. Derived from Sanskrit. And at Vṛndāvana you studied at a later time, then, did you? *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, I studied the Vedic literature, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, as I mentioned so many, Upaniṣads, Vedānta-sūtra. Prof. Gombrich: Then that was after the university? Prabhupāda: Yes, that was after my retirement. Prof. Gombrich: I see. Prabhupāda: But in student life I had knowledge in Sanskrit, and that was utilized later on. Prof. Gombrich: Yes, of course. And do you return to Vṛndāvana often? Prabhupāda: Yes. Every year I go there, during the month of October. Prof. Gombrich: Do you have a particular āśrama there? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Yes. Now we are constructing our own temple also, very big temple. You had been in Vṛndāvana? Prof. Gombrich: No, I haven't, I'm afraid. No. And do you think that the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is very different from the message of realizing God which is promulgated in other religions, for instance the Śaiva religion or...? *Prabhupāda: No I don't think so. Any religion, you follow nicely. Just Christian religion, there is God consciousness. So actually it is not this religion or that religion. People have given up religion. All over the world they have no more interest in religion. And especially I see that in your London that so many churches are vacant. Nobody's going there. So thing is that there is no more regular teaching of religious system. It has become a profession like. Neither the teachers are serious, nor the students are serious. So our principle is that not this religion or that religion. Whichever religion you may like, you can follow, but we want to see whether you are God conscious. If you are not God conscious, then we take it simply useless waste of time, these so*-called religions. Śrama eva hi kevalam. You understand Sanskrit. Prof. Gombrich: But do you think for instance, in this country, if somebody is a Protestant, or I mean a Christian and goes to church, this is also, you don't try to convert them away from that? Prabhupāda: No, no. We have no such process (indistinct). Prof. Gombrich: Because your movement is extremely distinctive. Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't try to convert. Just like one gentlemen was asking, "Why these ladies, girls, they are putting Indian sari?" I never said that "You do that." But they're doing out of their own accord. So I never canvassed to become a Hindu, or like that, no. Our propaganda is, "Just become God conscious." (end) Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. You know Sanskrit. You know Sanskrit? Guest (1) (Indian man): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Guest (1): Ahaṁ sa brahma. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Ahaṁ sa brahma. Prabhupāda: Yes, Brahman, the spirit soul is Brahman. Ahaṁ sa brahma. Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ brahma. Paraṁ dhāma pavitram, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. The paraṁ brahma. Kṛṣṇa is called paraṁ brahma, and we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are Brahman. The drop of water and the vast water. So Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, Supreme Person, and we are also persons, but not Supreme Person. Do you think you are Supreme Persons? Anybody? So anyone thinks that "I am Supreme Person," he is a crazy fellow, madman. He can say: "I am person. Kṛṣṇa is a person. I am also person." That is all right. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is Vedic version. [break] Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. Guest (1): There are internal senses also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): There are counterparts of senses also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like your coat and shirt. The coat has got hand. But that is not hand. Real hand is within the coat. So actually the coat has no hands. So where is the question of coat having senses? Similarly, this material body is a lump of matter. Just like the dolls. The dolls are prepared with grass, hands and legs, and then it is plastered, and it becomes a nice doll. Similarly, we have got hands and legs, and this material is plaster. Therefore when the real hands and legs go away, they are no more hands and legs. They are simply lump of matter. Therefore, anyone thinks that this body, "I am," he's a fool. If you think that you are the coat, you are the shirt, then you are a fool. Guest (1): Keśava, Kṛṣṇa, everything, one, every senses. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is all spirit. Guest (1): His senses are...? Prabhupāda: Everything. He has no difference between the body and the soul. He's Supreme Soul, simply Supreme Soul. Guest (1): He has no these external senses? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He has no external, internal. We are conditioned souls. We have got external, internal. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because people cannot understand it, they think that "Kṛṣṇa is like us." Guest (1): He's not person then realistically. Prabhupāda: He's person. Not like you person. Guest (1): A different. *Prabhupāda: That you are always in want. Not like that. He's Supreme, full of all opulences. He's person, but not a person like us. The same example: Indira Gandhi is a person. I am also person. But not a person like me. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means person. He is sac-cid-ānanda. We are not ānanda. This body is not sat. Guest (1): Not cit also, not full cit. Prabhupāda: Neither cit, nor ānanda. So how you can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? You have got a different birth, you can have a... You have already, but it is plastered with matter. If you become without plaster, then you become as good as Kṛṣṇa, not in quantity, but in quality. Quality, you are already. But you have been covered with these dirty things. Guest (1): Māyā. Prabhupāda: So when these dirty things are washed, then you become as Kṛṣṇa as you in spirit sense. So at the present moment, we are with... Covered means with upādhi. Upādhi. Just like your naked body and this body with shirt and coat. When you take away the shirt and coat, you become original body. Similarly, when you stop accepting this plastering process of body, material body, in different shapes, then you become mukta. Guest (1): A few books I have got. Kṛṣṇa, I have got it. Prabhupāda: So you are member? Guest (1): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then... [break] ...We have not very many followers because we disagree with all rascals. We are not rascal. [break] Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na sāntāya (?). Mūrkha upadeśa... (Hindi) If you give some lessons to the rascal, he becomes angry. Payaḥ*-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. If you ask a serpent, "Sir, you don't bite anyone, you take your here, milk, (indistinct)," the result will be he'll increase his venomous poison, and one day-"Phansss." (Sound imitating biting) You know the story? The kuta..., (?) the wood-cutter and the snake. He found a snake... Snake, if it is not killed, then if you simply beat and becomes dead, again he revives life. You know that? Guest (1): Yes. *Prabhupāda: By air. So somebody killed, but he did not cut or burn. So he again, into life. So a wood*-cutter, what is called? Who cuts trees and wood? He felt sympathetic. He took away the snake and kept at home and gave him some milk. So one day, when he was strong. (makes hissing sound) So he thought, "Oh, I gave you life, I gave you milk, and now you are trying to attack me?" He cut into pieces. Therefore in the śāstra it is said, modeta sādhur api vṛścika-sarpa-hatyā [SB 7.9.14]. When Prahlāda Mahārāja's father was killed by Hiraṇya, I mean to say, Nṛsiṁhadeva, Prahlāda Mahārāja prayed, "Sir, You reduce Your anger now. Nobody is displeased with You because my father was just like a scorpion and snake, and when a scorpion and snake is killed, nobody's unhappy. So nobody is unhappy. Your action is not decried by anyone. Please now become in Your sense." So in the whole living entities, kingdom of living entities, the vṛścika, vṛścika and sarpa... Guest (1): Scorpion. *Prabhupāda: They are very dangerous. So if vṛścika and sarpa is killed, nobody's unhappy. [break] ...in Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ, sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ. A jealous, envious man, he's also crooked, and the snake, it is also crooked. But the man practiced to jealousy is more dangerous than the snake. Why? "He's human being. He's still more dangerous?" "Yes." "Why?" Mantrauṣadhi*-vaśaḥ sarpaḥ. You can bring under control the snake by mantra and drugs. Khalaḥ kena nivāryate. And the jealous man cannot be subdued. Therefore he's more dangerous than the snake. Guest (2): Than the snake. [break] Prabhupāda: ...here is a very nice, educated man. He's very nice. But we say, "No. Because he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's as dangerous as if he is ordinary man." We don't give any credit. [break] Acyutānanda: Which is more important, to go back to Godhead or spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Well, one who is preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's already back to Godhead. [break] ...īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā girā. Preacher means he has engaged his body, his mind, his speeches only to glorify the Lord. That is preacher. So anybody who's engaged that business, he's jīvan*-muktaḥ sa ucyate. He's liberated even in this life. [break] ...even if he's liberated. So why he should seek for liberation? He's already liberated. He's already back to Godhead. He's already with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is talking with him. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi... One who is actually preacher, engaged in Kṛṣṇa's glorification, service, he's already in Vaikuṇṭha. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Etad īśanam... It's just like Kṛṣṇa. If He comes within this material world, does it mean that he's in the material world? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's pure devotee, he's not in the material world. In the spiritual world. Guest (1): He gets the body? Does he get the body? *Prabhupāda: Therefore it's said, jīvan*-mukta. Although he is within this body, still he is mukta. Just like... Example is you take a rod, put into the fire, by association of fire, it becomes red hot. At that time, it is fire, not rod. Similarly, if one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no other business than to glorify Kṛṣṇa, he's already in the Vaikuṇṭha. Why should he...? Therefore Kṛṣṇa-bhakta doesn't require any mukti. Muktiḥ svayaṁ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān. Mukti's serving him. [break] ...Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmani. Birth after birth. But when you go back to home, back to Godhead, there is no birth. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. You don't return. But here Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Birth after birth." So he's already mukta, he's already in the Vaikuṇṭha. Is that clear? Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is niṣkāma. He has no any desire. Because he's already fulfilled with all desires. He's, he's in the service of the Lord. Acyutānanda: Well, like sometimes the devotees are preaching, but they get feelings of getting entangled, so they want to... Prabhupāda: That means it is not yet perfect preacher. He requires perfection. Acyutānanda: So they argue with me or some other... Prabhupāda: It is not the question of arguing. Acyutānanda: No, they say, "Well, I want to fix myself up," and we want them to preach. Prabhupāda: Preaching is our only business, preaching. Whatever we do, it is aimed at preaching. Namaskāra. [break] That is our business. Whatever we are doing, it is for preaching. [break] In, in the practice, or in the engagement of preaching, their position is better than those who are worshiping the Lord in a secluded place, bhajanānandī. Acyutānanda: What about those who are preaching, but imperfectly, and those who are...? Prabhupāda: Even it is imperfect... Acyutānanda: It's better than just sitting. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] If he's sincere, it cannot be imperfect. Because... We are always imperfect, but Kṛṣṇa will help us. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam [Bg. 10.10]. How he can be imperfect? Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence. Imperfect means whose intelligence is not perfect. But when Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence, how he can be imperfect? He may be imperfect, but he's being helped by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's not imperfect. Guest (1): Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He's associating with Kṛṣṇa. And unless one is confidential devotee of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa does not speak with him. But when he becomes perfect, confidential servitor, Kṛṣṇa speaks with him, "Do like this, do like that," and he'll do that. And therefore in his action, you won't find any fault. [break] If somebody perfect instructs him, "Do like this," then my action is not imperfect. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If I say, "Yes, you give up everything. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then I am perfect. And if I say, "So 'ham. I am Kṛṣṇa," then you are imperfect. Is that...? [break] "...the same. I am the Lord. I am the Supreme." They're all imperfect. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They have been described as rascals. They are strongly thinking that they are liberated. They're rascals. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They are talking like nonsense because their intelligence is not..., it is purified. He's therefore wrongly thinking that "I am the Supreme Lord. I am moving the sun." These rascals, they meditate, "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon. I am this, I am that." This is their meditation. So 'ham. So they are rascals. And how you can become the Supreme? As soon as you have got a toothache, you have to go to the doctor. And he was thinking he was supreme, nonsense. Rascal. [break] ...bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. These are Māyāvādīs, those who are after, "I am the Supreme." They are Māyāvādīs. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Anyone who hears the philosophy of Māyāvāda, he is doomed. He is gone." [break] ...teaching, "Why you are seeking after God?" Just like Vivekananda taught, "Oh, why you are seeking after God? Don't you see so many gods are on the street? They are hungry. They are lame. They are daridra-nārāyaṇa. Why don't you worship them?" This is Māyāvādī. So if we take Vivekananda's version, and be engaged in the service of the daridra-nārāyaṇa, then I am misled. [break] ...preaching this daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā for hundreds of years, at least one hundred years, but still, there are daridras. Even in the city like Bombay, still. Fifty years ago, I came. I saw there are the residents of the footpath, having a small... Eh? Guest (1): The pipe. Prabhupāda: And still I find. When the rice is selling at eight rupees kilo, and when the rice was selling three rupees a mound, at that time also they were on the footpath, resident, and now also. Guest (2): Now also. Prabhupāda: Now also. So how you can stop this? Guest (1): It is God's desire. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nature's arrangement. And those who are rich... There are richer section when the rice was selling at three rupees per mound, and the richer section is still there when rice is selling, nine rupees a kilo. So they have no eyes because less intelligent. They cannot make equal. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Prakṛti, in the prakṛti there are three modes of material nature. They will be manifested. It is not possible to make everyone of the same standard, the standard must be different. So they are simply spoiling their time to make the whole society on the same status. The communists are trying, the others are trying. That is not possible. So one should not be disturbed with all these superficial low and high places. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, Guest (1): The aim of life is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Aim is go back to Godhead, back to home. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. That is our aim. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā. Yes. [break] Guest (3) (Indian man): We have a company for interior decorating. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (3): We have a company for interior decorating. Prabhupāda: India decorating? Guest (3): Interior decorating. Prabhupāda: Interior, oh. Guest (2): And... [break] ...and become one now. Prabhupāda: You are always. But you forgot. That is our position. Guest (2): No, I believe I was respecting all religions, all gods, but now I think I lay more emphasis on Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: How can be all Gods then? That is practical. If everyone is God, then what is the meaning of God? If... Do you think everyone is president, everyone is Indira Gandhi? Indira Gandhi is one. The Prime Minister cannot be many. It is a common sense. How everyone can be God? This is nonsense. Anyone thinks that there are many gods, he does not know what is God. Aiye. God is one. Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. Therefore there is no education what is God. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagava... Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "Nobody else superior than Me." That is God. Asama-ūrdhva. God is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as asama-ūrdhva. You can come this side? Let them come forward. You sit down... [break] ...equal to God. And nobody can be greater than God. That is "God is great." If somebody becomes equal to you, how you can be great? Or if somebody is higher than you, then how you can be great? So there is no equal to God, nor greater than Him. That is God. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. [break] "...anyone greater than Me." That is God. There are so many Gods, false gods, nowadays. Can anyone say that "Nobody is greater than me"? All these rascal Gods, can he say? Can anyone say? Immediately... He feels some sickness. Immediately he has to call greater God, physician. And he's claiming, "I am God." We don't want such kind of God, manufactured God. We want real God. When we see nobody is greater than Him, that is God. [break] ...We accept so many pseudo, pretender as God. But we do not know how to test him, whether he is greater than everyone? Whether nobody is greater than him? Then he's God. Can you find out any, so many gods, who has no greater than him, or equal to him? You are claiming You are God, I am also claiming, God. Then we are equal. Then how you can be God or how I can be God? We are equals. As soon as you find there are equals, or as soon as find there is greater, then you are not God. God*-the great. He must be greater than everyone. Therefore śāstra has concluded, īśvara, God; parama, the Supreme; *Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. And why? Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His body is sat, cit, sac-cid-ānanda. Now you test. Your body's not sac-cid-ānanda. Sat means eternal, cit means full of knowledge, ānanda means full of bliss. Is, is my body sac-cid-ānanda, this body? No. It is not eternal. It is full of ignorance. It is full of miseries. Then how it can be God? So God, there cannot be many Gods. Many gods, that is not many, that is one. Just like you have got millions of photographs. That does not mean you are million. You are one. But you have expanded millions. Just like the sun is found in every pot. In millions of pot, you keep. And the sun is reflected. Does it mean the sun has become million? No. The sun is one. Similarly... Guest (3): Reflections. *Prabhupāda: Reflections. These are examples. Similarly, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is everyone's heart. That does not mean God is many. He's one. But He has got such inconceivable power that that oneness can be distributed into millions. Advaya. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Although God expands Himself in many forms, still, He's advaita, one. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. He's the original person; *still, always fresh, young. Nava*-yauvanaṁ ca. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you'll find always fresh. That picture of Kṛṣṇa, you see. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca. Just a fresh, young man. In the Bhagavad-gītā, you see. Kṛṣṇa is driving. He's fresh, young man. But Arjuna has got moustaches. Guest (3): People who are not aware of Kṛṣṇa, and are living... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): ...and it may take time for your people to educate them, till then they are not aware they are accepting somebody. Prabhupāda: Then they are cats and dogs. They are doing something also. Guest (3): No, but... Prabhupāda: No, no. Cats and dogs, they are doing some business. Guest (3): What percentage of people today know about Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That we do not know. But anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is, more or less, like cats and dogs. Maybe bigger dog, bigger cat. Just like amongst the dogs, there are different varieties also. So similarly he belongs to that dog, cat class. Guest (2): Now if he is not got, then what shall he do to become aware? Prabhupāda: No, everyone gets opportunity. But he'll not take the opportunity. Guest (3): In this country, yes, everybody has got opportunity. *Prabhupāda: Not... Every country, every, all over the world. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. The opportunity's open for everyone, but he'll not do it. He'll say, "Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" Indian Woman: But, Guru Mahārāja, if one has some original faith in Jesus Christ or Muhammad, would he...? They think they're sons of God or a messenger of God. Prabhupāda: No, Jesus Christ says "I am son of God." He never says, "I am God." Indian Woman: So if they follow Jesus Christ...? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Son of God is as good as God. That is another thing. We have no objection. Suppose in a big office, the father is there, the son is there. And the son has ordered something. The father will never say that "Don't do it." Because father and son, the same position. That is another thing. Guest (1): But he is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): He is not Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: He's son of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest (2): Now, if we take another example. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): That some people worship gods. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Guest (2): Some people who are strictly Śaivites. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. That's nice. Guest (2): No, No. But then what is the connection then between Kṛṣṇa and Śiva? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Śiva, just like dahi and dudha. Dahi is nothing but dudha, but still it is not dudha. Guest (2): It's a a different form. Prabhupāda: Not different form, different action also. If you want milk, if I give you dahi, and if I say, "Oh dahi and dudha, the same thing. Why you are not accepting this dahi?", will you accept? Guest (2): Correct. *Prabhupāda: Although the same thing, but action is different. If you become devotee of Lord Śiva, you'll get opportunity of material opulences. Because Lord Śiva is the husband of Durgā, and Durgā is the superintendent of this material world. So Durgā is under control. If one becomes a devotee of Lord Śiva, then Durgā gives him, eh? Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi rūpavatī*-bhāryāṁ dehi yaśo dehi. So you'll get all this, nice position, nice wife, nice power, famous... All this material, not spiritual. So to worship any other demigod than Kṛṣṇa is materialism. That is not spiritualism. Guest (1): Worshiping Viṣṇu is also material? Prabhupāda: No. Viṣṇu is not. Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu the same, expansion. That you have to understand. Guest (2): Rāma also. Prabhupāda: Rāma also. Guest (2): What is the position of people like Guru Nanak, Muhammad, and other people? Prabhupāda: They're servants of Kṛṣṇa. They are serving on behalf of Kṛṣṇa among certain people who cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like a student in the primary class, he does not know what is M.A. examination. Therefore teacher is teaching according to his position. But he's a teacher, he's an authorized teacher, appointed by the school, authority. Guest (2): So they're representatives? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they're... Just like Lord Buddha. We accept him as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But he preached, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no God. I don't care for the *Vedas*." Guest (2): He's flaunting the authority of... *Prabhupāda: No, he is authority himself. Keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. He's personally Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Does he say so, or you...? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sometimes he has to say so. Guest (2): And he's allowed to say so. Prabhupāda: That is... Just like... Guest (2): Is he allowed to say so? Prabhupāda: No, no. He is the Supreme, He can say. Just like a father cheats sometimes the son. The son has taken from the pocket of the father one hundred rupees' note. He's not separate. The father takes one lozenges, two paise worth. "Oh, my dear son, you can take it, very nice. You give me that." "Ah yes." It is not cheating? He's giving two paise worth lozenges, and taking hundred rupees' note. Is it not cheating? This is cheating. But father is cheating; therefore it is good. You cannot imitate father and cheat others. Father can do anything for the welfare of the son. That is another thing. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa appears as a cheater, the atheist class of men and Lord Buddha say, "No, no, there is no God. Yes, it is all right. You are right. But you hear me." "Yes, sir, we shall hear you." But he's God. This is cheating. *Guest (1): Was he preaching karma*-kāṇḍa? Prabhupāda: He said that there is no God, but he's God. Just like the policeman sometimes cheats. He goes as a gambler, but he's a policeman. So that is another thing. Therefore if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you understand all these different activities. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. And you become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. If anyone understands what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what His activity is, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, you, after giving up this body, you haven't got to come again in this material world. Simply by studying Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are preaching, "Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...life is meant for to possess complete knowledge of the Supreme. That is perfection of knowledge. That is possible in the human form of life, not in the life of cats and dogs. That is not possible. So we have got this opportunity. If we spoil this life, living like cats and dogs, then we are missing the opportunity. This is the opportunity to understand Kṛṣṇa, God. Guest (1): Merely knowing it won't... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Merely knowing won't do also? Prabhupāda: No, if you know, you'll act. But if you do not know, how you'll act? In the darkness? But even if you know simply... That Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyam. Find out. Devotee: Janma karma... Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Tattvataḥ, if you can understand, then your business is done. Then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Then, after giving up this body, you are not going to accept any more this material body. My problem is acceptance of this material body. That is my problem. Because these pains and pleasure, feeling of pains and pleasure, is due to my this body. Therefore Buddha philosophy is nirvāṇa, "Make this body zero." That is his philosophy. Nirvāṇa. Because people are bothered due to these pains and pleasures. Here everything is painful. But we take something pain, as pleasure. Guest (1): Something, some devotees want the body again and again for doing service also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Some devotees want the body again and again... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee... Because people want perfection. But their perfection is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Their perfection is not to stop this body. But the... Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he's not living in this material world. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Anyone who's engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he's transcendental to these material qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54]. [break] ...and then, after leaving this body, you are not going to accept any material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, you are under pains and pleasure. No pleasure, simply pains. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We are trying to avoid pains. But it is not possible. The real pain, birth, death, old age and disease, that remains. What is the use of temporary getting some so-called pleasure? Guest (3): At what stage could one say that a person is Kṛṣṇa conscious? There must be a beginning stage... Prabhupāda: He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): And only then he's Kṛṣṇa conscious person? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has no other business than Kṛṣṇa's business. Guest (3): And if everybody became Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Then everybody's becoming liberated. Where is the harm? Guest (1): Does he mean he has to...? Prabhupāda: Why to lament? "Oh, everyone is becoming good men. Nobody's coming in the prison." It is to be lamented? That nobody's coming in the prison house, it is very good news. But that will not take place. Guest (3): Should it affect the normal duties? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Should it affect the normal duties? Prabhupāda: Real duty is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is normal duty. All, all other duties are abnormal duties, crazy duties. Just like pāgala, they're all crazy. Devotee: Who is Crazy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: That's a new book? Prabhupāda: No, old book. Indian Woman: But, Guru Mahārāja, one has to do her duty as advised. Prabhupāda: You do not know what is your duty, first of all. A madman, he does not know his duty. Indian Woman: But if he's (indistinct), then where is he going to get the money for his food? *Prabhupāda: Oh, where we are getting money? Where we are getting money? Just like In London, George Harrison has given us a house, fifty*-five lakhs worth. So if I wanted to possess this house by doing this business, three lifetimes would have been required. Not even three lifetimes. We are spending like anything. But we have no stock. We do not know what we shall eat tomorrow morning. We do not know. It is our position. We do not know what I shall eat tomorrow or this evening. But do you think we are starving? We have no problem. *Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa says, yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham [Bg. 9.22]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here it is. Kṛṣṇa is giving opportunity of eating for the cats and dogs, the birds and beasts, and I am engaged in His service, He'll not give me food? Because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore we are thinking, "If I do not work like these cats and dogs, I'll starve." That is my imperfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And perfect Kṛṣṇa consciousness means he knows that "I have engaged my life in Kṛṣṇa's business. Kṛṣṇa is..., Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's feeding millions and millions of living entities. And he'll keep me starving?" Is it possible? That means he, he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He's thinking Kṛṣṇa is a fictitious thing. That is his position. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...then they would have been confident, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is feeding everyone. Why not me? What I have done? Because I am engaged in His service, therefore I shall starve?" And the devotee has no such question also, whether he'll starve or eat. It doesn't matter if he starves. It doesn't matter. He thinks, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has put me in this position, to starve." Just like in hospital. A patient is ordered by the physician: "You should not eat anything." So he knows, "It is good for me." Similarly, a devotee, when he's starving, he knows, "Kṛṣṇa has put me in this starving condition. It is good for me." He never complains. Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. That I have already explained. Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: Virginia? Acyutānanda: Oh yes. Thirty below zero. Prabhupāda: So we have no experience below zero degrees. But in Europe, America, there is places. In Russia also, below fifty degrees. But they do not stop their business. They know that "Winter season has come. It will go away again." So devotees, even they are in distressed condition, they know, "It has come due to my bad activities in the past. It will go away. Let me suffer and finish it." Just like if you become, all of a sudden, infected with some disease. So what? You'll go mad? No. You know that "I have infected this disease. Let me suffer a few days. It will go away. That's all." This is the mentality of the devotees. They are not disturbed. And if he's not disturbed, then he's fit for becoming liberated. Guest (2): And he was cut into two. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He was going to die, still he was asking, "Give me a cigarette." He does not know anything else. Therefore one has to practice. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ [SB 2.1.6]. At the time of death, if you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. Guest (2): This is very nice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Simply if you can... Just like Ajāmila. He simply chanted, "Nārāyaṇa." Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. He was saved from the greatest danger. So this human form of life should be so trained up that at the time of death you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, now you can judge what I have done for you, and what you have done for me." Then give me that place. That's it." That... If you have worked whole life for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is not ungrateful. He'll give you. Guest (3): Can a person become Kṛṣṇa conscious only by renouncing, or can he do both, continue his life and also become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: What we have renounced? Guest (3): Well, you are not conducting any business. You are conducting the business of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in Kṛṣṇa's business, there is no question of renouncement. Guest (3): No, but that is not a specific thing. But if somebody's carrying out a particular duty, does he have to renounce that... *Prabhupāda: That particular duty, you cannot manufacture. That particular duty is, as Kṛṣṇa says, if you cannot... Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... [Bg. 4.13]. (end) Room Conversation -- September 19, 1973, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. If you can quote ślokas, that will be first*-class. In India especially. In your country they do not care. Our Bhavānanda Swami, because he could not quote śloka, so he was saying, "Oh, because you have quoted some śloka, it is authorized?" He was saying like that. Western people, they cannot imagine that by quoting a Vedic version it becomes immediately authorized. They cannot imagine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept that source of authority. Prabhupāda: They don't accept any authority. Therefore they are changing Bible also, according to their whims. They don't accept authority. Therefore father, son, goes out of home. This is the basic principle of western civilization. They don't accept any authority. Everyone is his own authority. Now that contamination has come here. And nobody can be authority also, because if I accept somebody authority, he has not followed authority, so how he can be authority? Do you follow? Suppose if somebody respects his father, but father never followed any authority. So actually father is not authority. What do they say, authority? Organized religion? They protest organized religion? What is that? Acyutānanda: Yeah, they protest organized religion. Anything in the society, Catholic Church..., Prabhupāda: So nobody's now actually... This Christian world, they do not care for any pope. Hm. What do you think? And what is this pope? He's simply a post. He has no knowledge. Otherwise how he can tolerate? People are going against Bible. But the Pope does not understand that the in the Bible clearly it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." If he does not understand the simple truth then how he can become the head of his... So what is interpretation of the pope? Acyutānanda: Yes, they say that animals have no soul. Prabhupāda: Just see. Such rascals, they are leaders. How much imperfect that institution is. But if you say, then they will be angry. Acyutānanda: Yes, one girl, she is Hindu, but she is studying in a convent. And they were catching butterflies in the garden. So the head sister said, "No, don't harm them because they are God's creatures." So she said, "Well, why do you eat meat?" So the sister left, but she failed her. She failed her in her classes. She gave her a failing grade, because she spoke back to her. Kīrtanānanda: It means they have no philosophy. Prabhupāda: No philosophy. No authority, no philosophy. Kīrtanānanda: If they say, "One living entity has soul and another living entity doesn't," what is the difference? What is the principle of movement, they don't know. Prabhupāda: What is that idea? I do not follow. Acyutānanda: The girl embarrassed the sister by saying that "You say that we shouldn't harm these insects, but you eat meat." So the sister didn't say anything, but on the girl's examinations and during her classes the sister gave her failing marks, in spite of her, to cut down her outspokenness. Prabhupāda: Failing marks? Means less...? Acyutānanda: Yes, she failed her in the class. Kīrtanānanda: Because she asked, "Why do you eat meat?" Prabhupāda: Just see. Acyutānanda: She couldn't answer her philosophically, so she got back by failing her. *Prabhupāda: So there are so many members of the society against cruelty to animals. But they are all meat*-eaters. Read something from Bhagavad-gītā and discuss. So in the Nepeansea Road, whether regular other things are going on or not? Or simply it is going out and coming and eating and sleeping? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we want to have morning class and Monday, Wednesday and Friday have evening program there, evening discourse. Prabhupāda: Whether it is going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we just fixed up the place. The day you arrived was the first day it was painted. Until then, it was not fit for anyone to come in. It was very nasty. Prabhupāda: But you are living since a long time there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have been living, but we have not invited others there. Prabhupāda: No, you invite others or not, whether your program was going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, till then it wasn't, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then it was simply a joint mess, that you go and collect and come and eat and sleep. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things, zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money, and enjoying senses. That's all. So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. As soon as we give up this śravaṇam, kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā, kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately. So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure. We have got the tendency to enjoy sense. So senses are strong. As soon as there is opportunity, the senses will take advantage immediately. Then your whole business finished, Choṭa Haridāsa, and rejected by Mahāprabhu, "Get out." Even associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu failed, personal associate. So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya*-Vijaya, they had to become demons. So these are the... If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity, it will be "churchianity." You know this word, "churchianity?" You know? Yes. Everywhere this churchianity is going on. And the real aim is how to enjoy sense, under different cover. That is going on all over the world. Therefore it has come to that Rajneesh. Ramakrishna Mission, Rajneesh mission. Vivekananda has given preached, Yata mata tata patha, Rajneesh also, a mata. They have got also followers. Everyone can manufacture his own way of religion. So sense enjoyment, there is free field. This material world means sense enjoyment. But spiritual life means no sense enjoyment, tapasya. Tapo divyam. Sense enjoyment is there even in the hogs. Then where is the difference between man and hog? The man means the more he has denied sense enjoyment, he is advanced. Otherwise the spirit of sense enjoyment there is in the hogs. That is the difference. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. These ordinary men, they are working so hard, but what is their aim? The aim is sense enjoyment. So keeping the point, sense enjoyment, in view, there is no difference between hogs and human beings. Because they are also working day and night, hogs. A particular animal has been mentioned in the śāstra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. This ayaṁ deho nṛloke, in the human society, is not meant for working so hard simply for sense enjoyment because this spirit is visible even in the hogs. Then what it is meant...? Tapaḥ. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. That is the point. Śamena, damena. Satya-śaucābhyām. Everything is there. And there are different types of sense enjoyment: rūpa, rasa, gandha, śabda, sparśa, six kinds. And each sense, there is an object of sense enjoyment. There is eyes, oh, beautiful woman, sense enjoyment. Maithunam, sex life, there are eight kinds of sex. If one thinks within the mind about sex enjoyment, that is also sex. So anyway, that is the danger, keeping a separate department for money collecting. Then it will turn: "Collect money, eat nicely and sleep nicely." And to live in the temple, at least, one is forced to rise early in the morning, take bath, to have darśana. They'll get regulated life. Therefore this temple worship is needed because we are so impure. So at least, in temple, by following the regulative principles, we can keep ourself pure. Otherwise simply chanting is sufficient. There is no need of constructing big, big temples. But we are so impure... That is Jīva Gosvāmī's, recommended that as soon as we give up this temple worship method, regulative principles, then we become, in the dress of so-called, we become victim of māyā. Veśopajīvaka. They are working and doing some business, and then our dress will be a means of business. This will be also another material business. Actually they are doing so. So that is the danger of keeping a separate department. What is the use? We have got jeeps? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still... The danger is very much there, I see that. But there is a use. Prabhupāda: Well, if the danger is there, why should we accept such use? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can we overcome that danger? We can try to overcome that danger. Prabhupāda: You cannot ever overcome, because you are all weak. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. Unless you are very strong, māyā is very, very stronger than you. How you can avoid it? Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante. Only one is very, very strong in capturing the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, he can avoid. Otherwise it is not possible. All these Villa Parle, Juhu gentlemen, they are daily coming to their city business. And is it very difficult for us? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have an office, though, in the city where they come to. *Prabhupāda: Office means their business is office. But your business is begging. Your business is not office. Your business is not... They have to direct so many things from there. That we can do. Besides that... Anyway, even they have got office, they come from in Bombay, Calcutta, even from hundred miles away. So if there is no such program, Deity worship, regulative principles, then it will be a joint mess. Hotel. Transcendental hotel. And transcendental fraud. This will go on. The business will be transcendental fraud, and life will be transcendental hotel. [Break] ...twenty, twenty*-five. So these women devotees, they are given cāpāṭis by the bābājīs. Kṣurasya dhārā. Actually it is like that. A sharpened razor, A little inattention, immediately blood. Kṣurasya dhārā niśitā duratyayā durgaṁ pathas tat kavayo vadanti (?). That is the risk. Nowadays modern civilization, as we are accepting, there is jeep, there is telephone, everything is there. One can conduct his activities from anywhere. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it didn't work last time. They stopped their preaching. The last time everyone moved to Juhu, they completely lost contact with all the life members in the city because they found it very difficult to continuously go back and forth. Prabhupāda: So keep it just like a temple. Not that... Acyutānanda: Nepeansea Road downtown, it should be kept like a temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. The temple routine work must go there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But no Deity. Prabhupāda: Deity, there is picture. That's all right. Do you think that picture is not Deity? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: There are eight kinds of Deity. Picture is also Deity. Even the thinking of Kṛṣṇa within the mind, that is also Deity. But we are not so expert that within the mind we can worship the Deity. Just like yesterday I gave you the example, the brāhmaṇa. He was worshiping Deity within the mind. There was no temple, no Deity. But within the mind, everything he was doing. And he got salvation. So that depends on particular person, how to worship Deity. So far we are gross men. So we must have Deity worship. Otherwise you can worship Deity anywhere, sit down and think, just like this brāhmaṇa was thinking. Because Kṛṣṇa is available in any way, because He is everything. But the method must be there. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano [Bg. 7.4]. So mind is also another material thing. So if you think of Kṛṣṇa's form within the body, mind, it is as good as you worship the Deity in the temples made of brass or wood or stone. Because both of them are Kṛṣṇa's energies. So whatever possible, He can accept. And that is Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the energy is not different from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa can accept your service in any of these material. So*-called material. Actually there is no material things. Material things means the desire for sense gratification. That is material. Ātmendriya-prīti-vāñchā-tāre bali 'kām [Cc. Ādi 4.165].' That is material. Kṛṣṇendriya-prīti-icchā dhare 'prema' nāma. That is spiritual. So that picture, that must be kept in a nice altar, regularly ārati and everything should go on. (pause) [break] mūḍha's position. Vyāsadeva has given Kṛṣṇa's pastimes in the Tenth Canto of Bhāgavata. Nine canto are devoted for understanding Kṛṣṇa, beginning from janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The Supreme, what is Parabrahman? Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is beginning. That Kṛṣṇa is personally explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. What Bhāgavata has described, what is Kṛṣṇa simply... Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Here also, this Vīrarāghavācārya says in (indistinct) jijñāsayā. He has given the meaning of jijñāsayā. Yes. Jñāna-buddha-vicāreṇa jijñāsayā (?). Jijñāsayā means vedānta-vākya-vicāreṇa. Vedānta. Jijñāsā. Jijñāsā, inquisitiveness, should be satisfied by the answers given in the Vedānta. Jijñāsayā. So Vedānta begins with this jijñāsā, inquisitiveness. Jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for inquiring about the Supreme Brahman. Jijñāsā. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. And Bhāgavata says jijñāsu. And Bhagavad-gītā also says, jñāni jijñāsuḥ ca bharatarṣabha. Catur-vidhā. Find out this. Catur-vidhā bhajante mām, sukṛtino 'rjuna. Those who are pious, they can begin bhajana. Sukṛtinaḥ. So four kinds of men: ārto jijñāsur arthārthī jñānī. Artaḥ means distressed, materially distressed; arthārthī, poor man who needs some money; *jñānī and jijñāsu*-these four classes of men, if they are pious, they inquire about the Absolute Truth. If they are pious. If one is pious, if he is distressed, he prays to Bhagavān, "Sir, I am in distressed condition. Kindly save me." This is piety. Arthārthī. Jñāni. They are... So jñānī. Human life is developed consciousness, jñānī, so why they should waste their time in inquiring so many unwanted things? They should devote their life simply for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, jijñāsu. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is meant for brahma-jijñāsā. This life is not meant for to live like cats and dogs. They have no jijñāsā. Their only jijñāsā is inquiry. Where is food? Where is sex? Where is nice apartment? Where is defense? This is their inquiry. In the animal life, there is no possibility of inquiring about the Absolute Truth. Everyone is working. They are also jijñāsu. "Where is money? Where is money?" That is also inquiry. So athāto brahma jijñāsā means... (Aside) You can come this side. Brahma-jijñāsā means this human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, brahma-jijñāsā. This is human life. Unless one is jijñāsu, just like Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he inquired... His first inquiry was, "What I am?" His first inquiry was. Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya? He said, "grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita, tāi satya māni." He was a brāhmaṇa. So brāhmaṇas are addressed as "paṇḍitjī." He was paṇḍita. He was very learned scholar in Sanskrit and Parsee, Urdu. But he admitted his fault, that "Everyone calls me as paṇḍitjī, but I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am. This is my 'paṇḍitjī.' Therefore I have come to inquire from You what I am." That is brahma-jijñāsā. Nobody knows in this material world what he is. Everyone is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am woman," "I am man." This is their... is their... They do not know. Brahma-jijñāsā. Brahma-jijñāsā means first to know one's self, self-realization, "what I am." And in the Bhagavad-gītā the first reply is given there. This brahma-jijñāsā. Because Arjuna was puzzled. He was thinking that "My kinsmen, my grandfather, my brothers, they are this skin, this body." So he was thinking, "If I kill my grandfather, my brother on the other side, what is the use of this fight? I do not like." But he was thinking in bodily concept of life. This is the position of everyone. Everyone is in the bodily concept of life. Therefore the first instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā is dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The asmin dehe, in this body, there is the soul. He is the proprietor. So this life should be, education means one should be advanced in education to inquire about himself, that is brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And as soon as there is question of jijñāsā, then there must be somebody else from whom to inquire. Therefore śāstra says that when you are jijñāsu, when you are inquisitive... Inquisitive of what? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Śreyas. Here we are also jijñāsu, we are going to the market; "What is the rate of this share? What is the rate of this commodity? What is the rate of rice? What is...?" We are also jijñāsu. But śāstra says jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam: "One must be inquiring about the highest perfection of life." That is human life. Śreya uttamam. Śreyas means... śreyas and preyas. Goodness, welfare, good. A small child does not know what is his śreyas. If you give a two payasā worth lozenges, he thinks, "This is my object, end of... I have got now nice sweet lozenges." But as you advance, then the śreyas is different. It is preyas. Immediately which you like, that is called preyas. But what is your ultimate good, that is called śreyas. Ś Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter? *Prabhupāda: Yes, it may be. Come on. (Hindi) Nāpnuvanti? Means "By coming to Me, one does not again get this place, which is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]." Nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam... This place is duḥkhālayam. Duḥkha ālayam. Here we create miseries. Or it is a miserable place. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, who has created this cosmic manifestation as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15], "It is a place of miserable conditions. And that is also aśāśvatam, not permanent, non*-permanent." You cannot make any compromise that "All right, let it be duḥkhālayam. I shall stay here." You cannot stay. You'll be kicked out. You cannot stay. Therefore it is called aśāśvatam, non-permanent. This is our... But we are seeking after permanent bliss, permanent eternal life. That is our searching out. That is real jijñāsā, "Where I can get eternal life of bliss and knowledge?" That is brahma-jijñāsā. So this life, this human... You have got it? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ah, this is saṁsiddhiṁ paramām, highest perfection. What is the translation? Pradyumna: After attaining Me, the great souls who are yogis in devotion never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection. Prabhupāda: That is the highest perfection. Nāpnuvanti, what is that? Pradyumna: Nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, mahātmānaḥ. This mahātmānaḥ means devotees of Lord. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya*-manasaḥ [Bg. 9.13]. This is mahātmā. Mahātmā means... Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Mahātmās, they are under the protection of spiritual energy, and what is the sign? That bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ. Find out this verse, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Just like we are under the material energy. This is called... This is also also daivī-prakṛti, but it is inferior. Parā-prakṛti and aparā-prakṛti. That is described. That real daivī-prakṛti is transcendental. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like heat and light. They are different energies of the fire. But heat or light, light is superior than the heat. Both of them coming from the same source. Heat and light. Just like sun. The heat and light. But we are more concerned with the light, sunlight. Similarly, the spiritual world and the material world, both of them are creation or emanation, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, from God. But the light energy is more perfect. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. What is that verse? You have found out? Read it. Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhajanti. Bhajanti means "engaged in devotional service." Bhaja sevāyām. Bhaj*-dhātu, this verb, is meant for rendering service. Bhaj-dhātu, kti, bhakti. So bhakta. Bhakti, bhakta and Bhagavān. So these are the mahātmās. But these mahātmās, these bhakta-mahātmās... Actually, mahātmā is bhakta-mahātmā. But there are others, mahātmās; *they are also called mahātmās, but they are not mentioned in the Bhāgavata. They have been mentioned anye. Anye means others. Is that verse there? Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg. 9.13]? No. Anye? Anye means others. The impersonalists, they are also sometimes called mahātmā. But the mahātmā who is kṛṣṇa*-bhakta, that is very rare. That is described in the Bhāgavata, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. There are mahātmās, but the mahātmā who is the devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Jñānīs they are also mahātmās, speculating what is the Absolute Truth. They are also called mahātmā. But this mahātmā, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ, without any deviation, this mahātmā is very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. This prapadya... (Aside) Oh, why you are? You can keep it closed. Yes. Pradyumna: Saṁsiddhiṁ paraṁ gati... *Prabhupāda: No... nāpnuvanti. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Saṁsiddhim. Siddhi, siddhi is ordinary. If you become transcendentalist, jñānī, yogi, that is also kind of siddhi. Yogis, they have got aṣṭa*-siddhi, aṇimā-laghimādi. But that is not saṁsiddhi. Saṁsiddhi is different. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. The highest perfection, saṁsiddhi is to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. That is saṁsiddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That will save him from coming down again to this place which is full of miserable conditions of life. That is saṁsiddhi. That one can attain very easily. That is also described, that janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: [Bg. 4.9] "Anyone who understands Me in truth..." Generally, people understand Kṛṣṇa that "He appeared as a great personality, son of Vasudeva. At Mathurā, He was born. And He acted very gorgeously in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra, and so on, so on." This is also knowing. But this is not knowing factually that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When one understands Kṛṣṇa, the original source of everything, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], which Kṛṣṇa explains, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no superior authority beyond Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of all." When one understands Kṛṣṇa like that... The Māyāvādī philosophers, they think that "I am also Kṛṣṇa, I am also Kṛṣṇa." But people who follow, they do not ask him that "If you are Kṛṣṇa, you show something as Kṛṣṇa showed. Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill when He was seven years old. And you are seventy years old. What you have done like that?" (laughs) So everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa, but he cannot manifest Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Kṛṣṇa showed the virāṭ-rūpa to Arjuna. What you have got? So this is Māyāvāda. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Nobody can be superior than Me or equal to Me, equal to Me." Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Asamordhva. Nobody is equal; nobody is above Him. Asamordhva. So in this way if we understand Kṛṣṇa, then we become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. And this tattvataḥ is very significant. How you can know Kṛṣṇa as He is, in truth? That is also explained. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in tattva, in fact, in truth, then you have to adopt this process of bhakti. Not jñāna, not yoga, not karma. Karma, jñāna, yoga, bhakti. So Kṛṣṇa is understandable simply by bhakti, not by other methods. Not by karma, not by jñāna, not by yoga. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. The jñānīs, karmīs, yogis, they are trying to come to the Absolute Truth, but they will take many, many births to come to this point to surrender. Therefore intelligence means if one understands that "Ultimately I have to come to Kṛṣṇa for my highest perfection; *then why not immediately? Kṛṣṇa is canvassing, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Why not take this process?" This is intelligence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births when one actually becomes wise, jñānavān, he surrenders, he surrenders." If one remains still unwise, not fully in knowledge, he hesitates, "Oh, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is as like me; *He is also a man. Maybe a powerful man, a very learned man." No. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa, tattvataḥ, in truth... "Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, even if he does not understand fully, if he tries to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is also very good." That is also. Tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17]. Even one tries to understand Kṛṣṇa, he does not finish, Kṛṣṇa says, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt: "Even little beginning of this devotional service can save one person from the greatest danger." Therefore there is great need of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world, to make them intelligent. Is there any question on this point? Guest (1) (Indian man): Lord Brahmā also prays for to be born into Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes yes. Because he will try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Even Lord Brahmā could not understand Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) No. (Hindi) Therefore, to understand Kṛṣṇa he desired to take birth in Vṛndāvana. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you want to play it? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not play it. Bring that record. On New York, Fifth Avenue, our saṅkīrtana party is going on. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are carrying the gramophone now. Prabhupāda: And in London, Oxford Street, the most crowded street, just like our Bombay, Harley Road... So in the big, big cities they are now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing. People are enjoying. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. You can play this record at home and dance in tune and enjoy. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are bringing it. This is the record, Every Town and Village. They are bringing the machine. Prabhupāda: We are arrested by the police sometimes. Sometimes there are big cases against us. In Ireland. Ireland? Pradyumna: Ireland, Scotland, in Edinburgh, too. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) These impediments are always there, even in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time. The Kazi, the Mohammedan magistrate, he wanted to stop. (pause) Kṛṣṇa tvadīya pada*-paṅkaja-pañjarāntam [MM 33]. So you are devotee of Rādhārāṇī. Eh? Yes, that is good. Through Rādhārāṇī, one should approach Kṛṣṇa. And therefore Vṛndāvana, they, everyone says, "Jaya Rādhe," first of all glorifying Rādhārāṇī. We have got many records. This is one of them, kīrtana. (record starts playing) [break] (sounds of people leaving and Śrīla Prabhupāda saying Hare Kṛṣṇa to individual people) (Hindi) [break] Guest (2) (Indian man): ...by working towards perfection in my duty... Prabhupāda: Yes, that perfection is to please Kṛṣṇa. If by... You are doing everything. That's all right, but if by your working Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then that working is perfect. If Kṛṣṇa is not satisfied, then it is useless, waste of time. Guest (2): But how do I come to know that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied? *Prabhupāda: That you have to learn by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By becoming... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you have to do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your obeisances unto Me." Man-manā bhava. "Become My devotee." So if you abide by this, then Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam: [Bg. 9.27] "Whatever you are doing, it doesn't matter, but you do it for Me." Guest (2): Without any selfish interest. Prabhupāda: Yes. You remain servant of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a servant discharges his duty very faithfully for the satisfaction of the master, similarly, you have got industry, if you work in this industrial work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa... Just like this boy behind you, he is working somewhere, getting good salary. But I had told him that "some percentage you must give to Kṛṣṇa." He is regularly giving. Guest (2): If I feel I have love for Kṛṣṇa, is that enough to be a devotee. Prabhupāda: But you must show how your love... Simply if you say... Suppose, anywhere in this material world, if you say somebody that "I love you," but there is no symptoms of love, then what kind of love? Love symptoms means dadāti, giving. First symptom. Just like when a boy goes to love a girl, he brings something. That is ordinary etiquette. So first beginning of love is dadāti, pratigṛhṇāti. If I love you, I must give you. And if you offer me, I will take it, I will take something. Pratigṛhṇāti. Exchange, giving and taking. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti, bhuṅkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, give him to eat, and whatever he gives you, you also eat. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. And if you love somebody then you disclose your mind to him and try to understand him also. By these six processes the symptoms of love is there. But if you say that "I love you," but there is no action... Guest (2): That giving should be without any intention of taking. Prabhupāda: No, no profit making, no business that "I give you something. I must have something from you." No, no. Love means without any desire, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], without any motive. That is pure love. If I give you something without any motive, that is pure love. Guest (3) (Indian man): (Hindi) ...there are three factors: one, duty towards God, duty towards the family, duty towards the business, duty towards the country, duty towards the society. Then how is he to balance himself in these duties? *Prabhupāda: Duty, there are so many duties. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, Guest (3): Yes. Therefore the duty's also in the strongroom. *Prabhupāda: Just try to understand that you must know how to discharge your duty. Because you do not know what is duty, therefore you are placing so many other duties, "Nationality, this is, this is..." kṛṣṇa*-bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If you become devotee... Just like your son. Is he not maintaining his family, is he not respecting his father, mother, he is not doing his duty in the service, he is doing his spiritual master? But the main principle is that he is devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So if you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you can discharge your duties properly; otherwise you cannot. It is not possible. If you want to pour water, leaf after leaf, it will be useless waste of time. But if you pour water in the center, on the root, it will go everywhere. Because he is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he knows how to discharge his duty towards his parents, how to discharge his duty to his wife, how to discharge his duties towards his spiritual master. He knows everything. But one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he does not know. He is simply confused. Sometimes jumping here, something jumping there, something jumping there. He does not know how to pour water. Guest (1): But what should be the first step to become a devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes, dadāti. That I have already explained. Dadāti. He must give. Give. Everyone goes to God to beg, "God, give us our daily bread." But one must go to God to give Him. If I do not give bread to Kṛṣṇa, he will be starving. This is devotee's mentality. Yaśodāmāyī, Yaśodāmāyī is thinking, Kṛṣṇa, "If I do not feed Kṛṣṇa well, my child will die." This is devotion. Otherwise everyone is asking from Kṛṣṇa. But Yaśodā*-mā is thinking that "If I do not maintain Kṛṣṇa properly, He will die." Therefore he (she) is always trying to supply everything, mākhana, miśri. So real love begins when you try to give God. Everyone is trying to take from God, "Oh father, give us our daily bread." This is not pure devotee. This is good because he has approached God, but this is not devotion. It is not devotion, it is..., means business "God, give me something, then I will love you." Is it not? Guest (1): But giving means, you know, giving part of what you earn, or some other way. When you say give... Prabhupāda: Give means, you want to take something from God. "God, give me wealth, give me fame" Yaśo dehi. Guest (1): No, if we want to give to God... Prabhupāda: Yes, when you learn to give God. Generally... Guest (1): Therefore, if a man feels empty, what he can offer? Prabhupāda: No, no, empty... God says that you can give Him patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. You can give Him little flower, little fruit, little leaf, little water. He is satisfied. Not that you have to give millions of dollars. But if you have got millions of dollars, and if you think, "God will be satisfied with little fruit," that is cheating. God knows, "He is a cheater. He has got millions of dollars and offering me little leaf, little water." He is intelligent enough. He knows that he's a cheater. People do that. Bhakti in the mind God, and for others, garama garama puri. And for Kṛṣṇa, within the mind, meditate. (laughter) God knows that "He is a cheater number one. He is preparing puri for himself, and for Me he is meditating." What is this nonsense? How meditation will help? Guest (1): God expects something from you. Prabhupāda: God does not expect. It is for your good. If you are simply taking from God, now if you learn how to give God, that is your perfection. That is your perfection. Why God will ask from you? He is all perfect. He does not want. He is not hungry. He is feeding millions of living entities. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Why God will ask from you? But if you give your life to God, then you become perfect. God is not want of, in your service or anything... He is complete. If he is not complete, he is not God. These are all mental concoctions. What you can do? What you have got to give charity? Guest 4 (Indian man): What is the position of man... *Prabhupāda: You are poor man, what you can give, charity? Why you are thinking that you can give in charity? Therefore God says, dadāsi yat: "If you are thinking to make some charity, give it to Me. Come on." Just like Bali Mahārāja was approached by Vāmanadeva. The Supreme Lord went to Bali Mahārāja, "Bali Mahārāja, give Me some land." You see. So these are all mental concoctions. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says that "If you have got such mentality to give some charity, give it to Me. Come on." The first thing is you try to learn how to give God. Guest (1): But Gurujī, giving those who are in need, is not giving to God? Prabhupāda: That is your philosophy. That is your philosophy. Everyone is needy. Guest (3): Now people... There are drought conditions, people are starving. Cattles are dying. There are no rains. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are not God conscious, they are thinking like that. Now, suppose in the hospital, there are many patients. They are starving, many patients in the hospital. Do you know that or not? So why don't you give them food? They are starving. Why? Why don't you go to the hospital and you'll find hundreds of patients, they are starving... So similarly, why you are bothering? You are not bothering the hospital because you know that is right, they are starving. That is the physician's prescription. They must starve. So if you know God, then you will understand that you cannot help anyone. They are put into the starving condition under certain condition. So you cannot help them. You are simply thinking that "I will help." There are hundreds and thousands, millions of people starving. What you can do? Even if you try to give some something. Just like this Vivekananda philosophy, daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā, to serve the poor Nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa has become poor. These are manufactured things. This is not with reference to the authorized śāstras or knowledge. What they can do? They raise subscription, huge subscription, on this plea, daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And Swami Nikhilananda in New York, he personally said, "Now these Americans ask me that you take from us so much money for daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā, but when we go to India, we see all these daridra-nārāyaṇas are lying on the footpath." What you are doing for them? What you can do? You are simply thinking falsely. What you have got to give? Just oil in your own machine. Try to understand God, instead of thinking foolishly, "Oh, what I shall do, this? What I shall do, that?" First, of all try to understand the situation. Lady: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hindi (end) Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay *Prabhupāda: All these things are, they are simply māyā. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. "These rascals, they are working so hard, making gorgeous arrangement. For what? For illusory sense gratification." That sense gratification is also false. Real sense gratification is in Kṛṣṇa and kṛṣṇa-dhāma. Hlādinī, sandhinī, saṁvit. Perverted in this material life. Āhlāda-tapa-kārī miśrayate tair na guṇa-varjite (?). Here āhlāda, pleasure and tapa-kārī, pain, and mixture of āhlāda. This is the position. Tair na guṇa-varjite (?). This kind of pleasure is not in Kṛṣṇa, guṇa-varjite, because He is free from the material condition. So anyway, the human life is only meant for... This is our mission, to teach that "You are simply wasting your time. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is his only business. And next business is, those who cannot directly take to, then those, they should be helping this movement. Therefore we go door-to-door, to connect them, to be linked up with this movement, life member, this member, that member... They are misunderstanding, "They have no other good business. Transcendental fraud, giving us some book and taking money and eating and sleeping. They have got..." They are thinking like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should preach strongly and they should know that we also preach. Prabhupāda: Yes, they should know that it is for their benefit we are making them life members, not for our benefit. And that should be the motive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should give with that motive. Prabhupāda: Yes, we should deal with them so that they may develop their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you simply make it a point, somehow or other take some money from them and let them go to hell, that is not... That is transcendental fraud. What do you think, Gargamuni? Gargamuni: Yes. We have to preach. (S.P. laughs) *Prabhupāda: Yes. If by the dress of sannyāsī, you take some money and eat and sleep, then it is transcendental fraud. (SP laughs) (Hindi) Just like others are toiling, and we are getting money by some dress. That's all. They are getting money by laboring hard, and we are getting money... In India, mostly the sannyāsīs, they do that. The priests also, they do that. This is our profession, just... My Guru Mahārāja said that ṭhākura dekhiye pāya rasta karache, rastaye 'yandiya jīvika badram karam bhari (?). Instead of earning livelihood by showing the Deity in the temple, it is better to take the profession of a sweeper in the street and live honestly. He said like that. The sweeper is working hard toiling and getting some money and living. This is honest living. But just like in Vṛndāvana, all the Goswamis. They have got their Deity. People are coming, contributing. Typical example, Gauracānda Goswami. Ṭhākura dekhiye paisa rasta. (?) All the sevaites, they are meant for... Our Kunja Babu also planned like that. He thought, "By cheating all the God*-brothers, I have got now Caitanya Maṭha. And people will come to see Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthplace, and I will get good income. And it will be distributed amongst my brothers and sons and myself. That's all." That is his scheme. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Perfect material plan. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is another way of earning money. And he was always after Guru Mahārāja only for this purpose. Guru Mahārāja took that "Oh, this man is helping me." But he had no such plan, to help Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. He had the plan, "Keep Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī in front, earn money, and put it in my pocket." That was his very beginning. He was taking money like anything. But he was a good manager. Other God*-brothers complained, sannyāsīs. Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Why you are complaining? You cannot reform him, your God-brother? And if I would have to keep expert manager like him, I would have to pay something. Suppose he is taking something, why do you grudge?" (Prabhupāda laughing) He would say like that. So nobody could say anything. But after the demise, everything burst out. "Kunja Babu must be driven out." That was the whole plan of Gauḍīya Maṭha breakdown. The grudge was against Kunja Babu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is Kunja Babu? Prabhupāda: That Tīrtha Mahārāja. His name is Kunja Vihari Sar. So that was boiling in everyone's heart. So as soon as Guru Mahārāja passed away, so that burst out. And the whole plan was how to get out this Kunja Babu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not how to preach. Prabhupāda: No. This was the cause of breakdown. This was suppressed by Guru Mahārāja under his influence, but the rebellious was there during his lifetime. And it burst into... Therefore he advised that "You make a governing body and Kunja Babu should be allowed to remain manager." This was directly spoken. He never asked anybody to become ācārya. He asked that "You form a governing body of twelve men and go on preaching, and Kunja Babu may be allowed to remain manager during his lifetime." He never said that Kunja Babu should be ācārya. None, none of them were advised by Guru Mahārāja to become ācārya. His idea was "Let them manage; *then whoever will be actual qualified for becoming ācārya, they will elect. Why I should enforce upon them?" That was his plan. "Let them manage by strong governing body, as it is going on. Then ācārya will come by his qualifications." But they wanted that... Because at heart, they were, "After demise of Guru, I shall become ācārya." "I shall become ācārya." So all the ācāryas began fight. One side, that Vāsudeva Ācārya and Sar Kunja Babu Ācārya. And Paramānanda, he thought that "Whoever will be powerful, I shall join them." (laughing) He only thought. But Guru Mahārāja never asked that these three men should be trustees. He wanted governing body. So the rebellion broke out immediately after his passing away. And then fight in the high*-court. And Kunja Babu, he is very intelligent man. So from the very beginning he knew that "There will be fight after the demise of Guru Mahārāja. So fight will be in the high-court. So at the expense of Guru Mahārāja, let my brother and sons become attorneys and barrister so I will have not to pay all these things." It was a planned thing. And that is being done. He was a clerk, it was not in his power to make his brother and sons attorneys and barristers. They were all made at the cost of Gauḍīya Maṭha to fight with (indistinct) in favor of Tīrtha Mahārāja. These were the planned things. But I was a rotten gṛhastha. I did not join any one of them. (Prabhupāda laughs) I was rotting in my household life. That's all. But I was planning how to make, how to make this. That was my desire from the very beginning, since I heard it. But I was never with them, either this party or that party. And Guru Mahārāja also recommended, apnader tasturi tublia thaki bhavan. Takhona (?). "When there will be need, he will do himself. There is no need of living with you. It is better to live apart from you." When I was recommended by Goswami Mahārāja to live in the Maṭha, that "He is so nice." Sometimes he recommended. In Bombay, here in this Bombay. That house. Yes. He (Guru Mahārāja) said "Yes, he is very expert. He can do. So it is better to live apart from you. And he will do everything when there is need." He said. I could not understand. Although I was apart from them, a gṛhastha. In this Bombay I was doing business. (people talking outside) Gargamuni: The man is here. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, let them come. Indian lady: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] You are Indian? American Banker: She knows the difference. She knows the... Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy of Muktananda? Lady: No he wasn't a philosopher, but in a way, he that meditation in the mārga. Prabhupāda: That meditation, what is meditation? Lady: I have not practiced that, but (indistinct) some dark room and... Prabhupāda: Dark room? Lady: And he makes you concentrate on... Some people (indistinct) something... Prabhupāda: It is all "something," nothing tangible. Lady: I at least here practiced psychiatry of... Banker: You go there, and you sit on cushions in a very dark room. Prabhupāda: He does not know. She does not know. Lady: No, I never practiced it... Prabhupāda: She knows only "dark room." That's all. In darkness. Lady: But we have not practiced by sitting there (indistinct)... Banker: He has a regular schedule. He has āratis. Prabhupāda: What Deity? Banker: He had a book in Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: What is that book? Lady: Some prayers of the Lord. Banker: His own prayers. They are not the *Gītā* or anything. It is something separate. And they sing Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma... That's why it's not this Kṛṣṇa consciousness because er..., Prabhupāda: He sings Hare Kṛṣṇa? Lady: No. Some different sort of prayers. He was learning that... He had one saint of his (indistinct)... Banker: There's a statue in the temple of some saint. Lady: Nityānanda Swami. He was his guru. Prabhupāda: Oh. He is not living? That Nityānanda Swami is not living now? Lady: No, no, he is dead. Prabhupāda: When he is dead? Lady: I don't know exactly because he had (indistinct) He was his devotee and (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So there is great difference between our... We worship Lord Kṛṣṇa. Lady: Juhu. May people might (indistinct), you are having (indistinct), it is very difficult for people to go there. Prabhupāda: In Juhu there are many men. Juhu people are not coming here. Similarly, these people will not go there. But at Juhu there are many men. So in Bombay, in any part of Bombay, itself a big city, any part of Bombay. But where we are getting such big land in the city? That is 20,000 square yards. And on the Juhu Beach. For this facility, yes. And a new town is growing here. You have been in Juhu? Banker: I used to live there. Beach house. Gargamuni: That big white house, that six story high building right on the beach, he used to live there. Prabhupāda: How do you like that place? Banker: Very much. Quiet, peaceful. After a day of work in the bank it's a very nice place to retreat to. Prabhupāda: Now, they were coming from Juhu to bank. So where is the difficulty? Such responsible officer, bank manager, they are coming and going, and you sannyāsīs cannot come and go? He has got responsible duties, he has to arrive in the office exactly in time. *Banker: It's thirty*-three minutes by train from Churchgate to Juhu. Gargamuni: But now he's not staying there. He's staying in town. Banker: That's only because I'm going to New York next week. Only reason. Prabhupāda: That is not other reason. There are many officers of your bank might be living there? Banker: National and Grindlay's bank officers are there. Several British companies have officers there. I was the only American for awhile. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you'll be moving out there again when you come back? Banker: No, I've been transferred to New York. I'm in a hotel because my things are packed. Prabhupāda: You are going to New York? Banker: Next week. I brought Bhanu, so in the future if you need any help, you just see her in the bank. She's interested and aware. Prabhupāda: She's going also with you? Banker: She will be in Bombay. She's at our main branch. Prabhupāda: You are working in the bank? Lady: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is your post? Typing? No. Banker: She's a clerk in my department. *Prabhupāda: I see. So our philosophy is Bhagavad*-gītā. You know Bhagavad-gītā? Lady: Yes, very little. Prabhupāda: That is standard. All big, big ācāryas of India. *Banker: Is this the thousand*-page book that you're holding? Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: So before leaving India, you can become a member. We have got many books, twenty books like that. This is published by MacMillan Company of New York. Banker: Oh, this one is. Some of them are printed in New York. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some of these are. This one is the most popular. It is printed by MacMillan (indistinct) publishing house. They went through already three editions just in the first year. The sales manager at MacMillan reported that while all the other editions of Bhagavad*-gītā are declining in sales, ours was increasing. So there is a good a interest there. So many I think there are so many English Bhagavad... Prabhupāda: 645. Gargamuni: This is the boy I told you who knows also Sanskrit and Bengali. Banker: Oh yes, I saw the photograph of him. Gargamuni: Yes, he is the same one. We call him Paṇḍitjī. Prabhupāda: How he saw his photograph? Gargamuni: I have a photograph of him with all his books. Very nice photograph. Lady: Is this the same book that you have in three small editions? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have a small book. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa. That *Kṛṣṇa Book* is a different book. The trilogy she is thinking about. That is still another book. Prabhupāda: Oh. Here is no Kṛṣṇa book? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Trilogy we don't have, but the big volume of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What is your name? Your name? Lady: Bhanu. Prabhupāda: Bhanu? Gujarati? Lady: Parsee. Prabhupāda: Parsee. I see. Parsees are Gujarati also. Lady: We speak Gujarati and Parsee. Prabhupāda: Formerly the Parsees were prominent community in Bombay. They are big businessmen, important men. Banker: Mr. Tata... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tata, Sarpiosa Mehta. (?) Now from the Parsee community no such big men are coming. What you think? Last big man was Nariman. You do not know? Nariman. He was of our age. I saw him. That Nariman Point. He was a political leader. Come on. So Nariman was a Parsee. I know that. Lady: I know name like that, but... Prabhupāda: He was Subhash Bose's contemporary. Yes. Of the same party. (pause) How is your son? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he is very well. Prabhupāda: And father? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he is okay too. Prabhupāda: Father, son, he's middle. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I am trying to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Father. And mother? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: She's a staunch Arya*-samaji. She's the chairman of the Santa Cruz Arya-samaj. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Oh. What is the philosophy Arya*-samaj? *Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. But she's pleased, she likes Kṛṣṇa, she likes our movement very much, but she still believes in Arya*-samaj very strongly. *Prabhupāda: Because she is president, how she can speak against them? (laughs) Arya*-samajis are strictly forbidden to go to the temple. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but she comes to see you. Prabhupāda: Then she breaks the law. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Last week we had a concert and she was selling tickets for our concert also. She helped little bit. Prabhupāda: Oh. And we do not do anything in darkness. Our everything is open. Lady: No, what are you doing, that is for the sake of concentration or something you must be doing... Prabhupāda: But concentration. Best concentration in darkness is to sleep comfortable, no disturbance. If you make the room dark and go on sleeping, snoring, nobody is going to disturb you. That is best concentration. Lady: What do you suggest for meditation? *Prabhupāda: We don't find anything in the Bhagavad*-gītā that "You should concentrate, meditate in darkness." We take it as bogus. No religious system, even in Christianity, there is no such thing as darkness. Christian churches are very much illuminated. They pray. Prayer is there. The necessity. Why in darkness? That is his invention. Neither in Hinduism, neither in Buddhism, there is such recommendation that "You pray in the darkness." Therefore it is bogus. Not standard. Why darkness? Naturally, if you make this room dark, you will feel sleepy. That is natural tendency. Lady: (indistinct) meditation? *Prabhupāda: The meditation you can do, just like we are also doing meditation, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra. But meditation as it is, to absorb the mind fully in God's vision, that is very difficult nowadays, at the present moment. People's mind is very disturbed. They cannot actually meditate. Therefore in this age, meditation, chanting the holy name of the Lord, that is recommended, congregationally. Just like we do, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma... So there is no need of dark room. Just like this boy. He is also a responsible officer in New York. He is also chanting. All these sannyāsīs. And we have got all these beads. So there is no need of meditating in darkness. We are going on the open street. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... There is no difficulty. Neither we have to select a dark place. Anywhere. Just like I am talking with you, they are chanting. Their chanting is not stopped. So why should you go to a dark room? It is open thing. And it is open for everyone, in any moment. There is no hard and fast rule, that "You have to do like that, do like that." Simply you have to chant, anywhere possible. Suppose if you leave this room, you go on the street, you can chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare... Nobody... There is no taxation. There is no loss. But the gain is very great by chanting. And this is recommended in this age, not sophistically to find out a dark room. No. It may be suitable for a particular person. But for mass of people, where is the facility of getting a dark room while going on the street? Suppose you are going on the street or in a car to your office, can you arrange for the dark room? But you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa without any dark room. So which is better? For concentrating your mind, for meditating, if you have to make so many facilities arrangement, and without any arrangement, if you can do, which one is better? Without any arrangement. That is Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Without any arrangement, immediately you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Without any consideration of your age, of your religion, of your country, of your nationality, of your color, caste, anything. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And that is being done, and the whole world is accepting. We are not recommending that "Go to a dark room." Neither it is required. Everything must be for mass benefit. That is only this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. What do you think? Banker: I haven't read most of this. I have a tiny one in my hotel room. There is a *Gītā* society in this country, leaves a *Gītā* in every hotel room. I have only read a few selections. Like the Gideons, the Bible. You go in any hotel in India now and you have one Bible placed by the Gideons and one *Gītā* by this *Gītā* (indistinct) Prabhupāda: *Gītā* Press. Sit down, I am coming. [break] In the U.S., I understand, there are 75,000 libraries. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But lot of the libraries in U.S. are running short of funds because the Nixon administration has withdrawn the support of the funds that they were giving to the various libraries. Prabhupāda: State aid? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have withdrawn the aid. Prabhupāda: Why? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So now the libraries are complaining about the shortage of money. Prabhupāda: (To Tamāla) Bring the other light. The second one, down. Yes. How is that. It is not in order? First one. [break] Banker: I haven't found a common yardstick yet. I prefer my own, but that's measured by my yardstick. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you also prefer this country's, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, sincerely. Therefore I went to your country, to start this movement. Banker: So many people in this country have argued with me and have told me that... They haven't been out of India, but they have told me that their country is better. Prabhupāda: Indians? Banker: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say their country is better, but I don't think... Banker: And they never left India. I don't know how they make this comparison. They say they have happiness here and we have wealth, and because of our wealth we are unhappy people. Prabhupāda: The Americans say? Banker: No, no, that is what they say here. Especially in my bank. Our clerks are the top five per cent of the nation's income earners, five thousand rupees or more a year, near the top five percent. But they still say that they're poor and happy. But then once a year they forget that when they ask us for more money. I don't understand it. Contradictory philosophy. Prabhupāda: There are two things. One material, one spiritual. Spiritually, India is happy, those who are actually spiritualists. But materially, India is unhappy. Spiritually, even if you still go in the interior of village, poor man, living in a cottage, he is taking bath three times and doing his professional work, a cultivator, having little food, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are happy actually. They have got their family, husband, wife, some children. If one lives spiritual life, he is actually happy. Materially, nobody can be happy. In your country, although there is enough facility for material enjoyment, actually they are not happy. Otherwise why in your country the hippies are coming out? They are coming from respectable, rich parents, nation, but they have given up their home, their father's opulence, mother's opulence. That I have seen practically. Practically all my students... Here, Brahmānanda, his father, at least he was a big industrialist, mother. But he did not like. He joined this movement. Similarly, Girirāja, his father is a big lawyer, rich man. But he did not like that. There are many, many students, their father's are... Śyāmasundara's father is big lawyer, rich man, businessman. He is the only son. But he did not like his father. So there are many... Even though he is not our student, still, I do not know. I have seen in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills. You know? That is a rich quarter. Very nice house. And one boy is coming, he is hippie, and riding on his car and going. Then I saw, although it is such a nice rich quarter, there are also hippies. That I could study. Why these boys are becoming hippies? And New York you know, the hippies are lying here and there in Fifth Avenue, Central Park, and they are worshiping pig. (laughs) You know that? Banker: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: He also knows. Why this disappointment? Banker: We have had a long history of debate in America over wealth. We have had one group, the fundamentalist Protestants, who argue that... Most of them are poor, and they feel very guilty if they have money. And then you have another group of Protestants, the Gospel of Wealth Protestants, who say that if you are truly holy, then it is better that the money be entrusted to your hands than to a man who is unholy. And then you have still another group that regards money as an end in itself, rather than a means to, committing you to do other things, And this confuses people in America. Your parents will be one thing, you'll be another. In my case, my mother is a Gospel of Poverty person. Blessed are the poor. She thinks you won't get into heaven unless you are poor. And I'm in the Gospel of Wealth category. (laughter) And you just select your own philosophy along the way. Carnegie was in that philosophy. He even wrote a book about it a one hundred years ago. The steel Carnegie, Carnegie steel. Prabhupāda: Yes, Carnegie's name I know. Banker: He was one of the number one advocates of this philosophy, that if you are holy, then the money should be in your hands, because you can use it for better purposes. Prabhupāda: That is a good philosophy. Banker: Therefore, then he started building libraries all over the country and everything else, besides his steel company. But this has been a big fight. It still is a big fight. Today you have the people who support welfare and those who oppose it. Prabhupāda: No. We don't oppose wealth. Banker: Welfare. Payment to people who don't work. *Prabhupāda: No, everyone should work. Our Vedic philosophy is that everyone must work. But there must be division of work. Just like in your body there are different parts. The head department, the arms department, the belly department, and the legs department. These are different parts. So all these departments must work for the total benefit of the body. That is our philosophy. Nobody should sit idle. But he must work according to his capacity. Brain must work for giving direction. Hand must work for giving protection. Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brāhmaṇas. The arms will give protection. That is the kṣatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaiśya. And the legs will carry the body. That is śūdra. This is... Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body. This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions. But there is no such plan. Now the plan is that everyone is being educated to learn technology, how to... In your country, especially. How to make economic development. So they have no brain. Therefore there are hippies. There is no brain actually. Now, the President Nixon, he is in the topmost post. He has no brain. Therefore he is being ridiculed. Neither he has honor. He is not resigning the post. He has been ridiculed by the people, but still, he is sticking to his post. So this is the defect. You have got in your country only the vaiśyas, the belly and the legs. I am just giving a crude example. Not only in your country, every country nowadays. There is no brain. Brain is finished. Therefore everywhere you will find chaos and confusion. There is no brain. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating some brain. We are not creating the technological expert, but we are creating brain to know the purpose of human life and work on it under a systematic way. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not such bluff that "In darkness you meditate this, that," no. It is a science. It is a science, how the human society can be happy in all respects. And everything is directed there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like to keep up your body fit, you require brain in order, your arms in order, your stomach in order, your legs in order. Everything must be in order. But out of all of them, if there is no brain, then everything is useless. The hand is useless, the stomach is useless, the leg is useless. So at the present moment there is no brain in the society. Lack of brain. All these things, directions, are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. What is the brain, or brāhmaṇa? Find out this verse, śamo damas titikṣā, in the Eighteenth Chapter. Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: So those who will act as brain, they must possess these qualities. But who is being taught these qualities? This modern civilization is teaching people how to steal, how to cheat, how to satisfy your own sense gratification. You see? No tolerance, no complete knowledge. All fools and rascals, no knowledge. Knowledge means they must know what is the aim of life, what is God, what we are, what is this material world, why we have come here. So many things. This is called God consciousness. There is no such educational institution all over the world. Is there any institution where it is being especially taught what is God, what I am. Is there any institution? Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university. Prabhupāda: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy? Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic. Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work. Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brāhmaṇa, fortunately, then you become brāhmaṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not śāstra. That is a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brāhmaṇa family, if his father is actually brāhmaṇa, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, ārjavam [Bg. 18.42], this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brāhmaṇa, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the śūdra quality, then he must be accepted as śūdra, not as a brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. *Brahmānanda: Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guṇa means quality, karma means the work. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brāhmaṇa. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brāhmaṇa. He is pulling on ṭhelā, no brāhmaṇa quality, neither work is brāhmaṇa, but still, he is paṇḍitjī. I have seen it in Calcutta. One man was pulling on ṭhelā with great difficulty, and another man is offering respect, "Paṇḍitjī, namaskāra." And he was... (Hindi) He was pulling ṭhelā. I have seen it. I have seen it in the street. You see. He is still thinking that "I am brāhmaṇa." He is working like an ass. He has no qualification. Neither he is qualified. Still, he is thinking that he is brāhmaṇa. Is it not? Yes. That is the cause of India's falldown. You work... These things should be... I am accepting somebody as brāhmaṇa; *then I must see that he has the quality of brāhmaṇa, that is there, satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, and he is working as a brāhmaṇa. When this was not examined, checked, anyone born in a brāhmaṇa family became a brāhmaṇa, the whole thing topsy*-turvied. Just like my student here. He belongs to the kṣatriya family. But he is not in the fighting, military plan. So he is not kṣatriya. But he is now more than kṣatriya. He is worshiping God. Therefore he is brāhmaṇa. He is neither kṣatriya nor śūdra. He is brāhmaṇa. His hereditary title is kṣatriya, Kṣanna. Kṣat na, kṣat na. He cannot tolerate injury to others. That is kṣanna. Is it not? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think so. Prabhupāda: Kṣat means injury, and triya means one who delivers. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, immediately took his sword, "Oh, why you are injuring one cow in my kingdom?" The kṣatriya's business is to give protection to the citizens from being injured by others. That is called kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa means whose knowledge is so perfect that he knows what is God. That is brāhmaṇa. And śūdra means one who laments. Śocati ti śūdra. (?) Śocati. Śrutakīrti: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. *Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the doctors are going on strike now. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are śūdras. Therefore, because it is the society of śūdras everywhere, there is confusion. No brain. Simply śocati, "want, want, want, want, want." And in brahminical culture, you will find even he is very poor brāhmaṇa, no source of income, no fixation of foodstuff even, but he is happy. He is happy. He is happy by his knowledge. He'll satisfy himself. If he does not get his food, then he will think that "This day Kṛṣṇa desired that I should not have my food. Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Therefore in Vedic culture, other section, the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas, they would call the brāhmaṇas to take food. Brāhmaṇa*-bhojana. Because they know, "The brāhmaṇas, they will starve; *still they will not ask anybody to give him food." Therefore brāhmaṇa*-bhojana. And now they have discovered daridra-nārāyaṇa-bhojana. There are so many things. Vedic culture is the perfect for human society, perfect culture. And this is not bogus humbug, go into the darkness and do something nonsense. It is everything open, in the śāstra, in the book. You have to adopt it. Then you become happy. The whole society, the whole human society becomes happy, never mind where it is. It is science, how to live just like human being, not like cats and dogs. That is Vedic culture. Everyone is happy. Still, those who are following Vedic principles, they are happy than others. These Arya-samajis, they say, the Vedic culture, but they are not happy as the strictly followers of Vedic culture. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is a lot of politics in it. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. As soon as you go against the standard rules and regulations, there must be some motive. That is politics. That is politics. All politicians, they are with motive. They are not for... Now, all these big, big political parties, they are fighting with one another. They are simply trying to keep their post and they are fighting for that. So where is the time for them to think of the general people, how they will be happy? There is no time. It is the Kṛṣṇa conscious people who are actually thinking of others. Para*-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava qualification is he is unhappy by seeing others... [break] Let us enlighten them. Otherwise what is the use of working in this old age? (Aside:) Come on. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Because without God consciousness, without understanding "What I am, what is God, what is my relationship," everyone shall remain unhappy. There cannot be happiness. Without knowledge of God, nobody can be happy. Superficially they may try, so-called humanitarianism, this ism, that ism. Now, say for these Communists country, they have struggled for the last sixty years. They started from 1917. How many years? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Seventy. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Russian Revolution. Prabhupāda: Seventy. Seventy. Yes, no, we were student at that time. So what they have done? They are changing, changing, changing. And I went to Moscow, I saw the people were not happy. There are so many things that is against one's psychological understanding. So many things. Therefore now they are going to hold some peace conference. Who told me? Oh, yes, Haṁsadūta. So without God consciousness, there cannot be any peace. That's a fact. Therefore our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is there. Tomorrow, when you are going? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Me? Tomorrow night. I'll come here tomorrow also. Prabhupāda: Yes, I will give you some letters for Bali Mardana. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali Mardana? [break] Brahmānanda: At MIT. At other colleges I was present. Prabhupāda: So that very time so I first of all asked the students, "Where is your technological department to find out the thing when a man is dead, and you replace it?" These were my subject matter. I talked. A man is working. (Aside:) come on. A man is working. All of a sudden he stops to work. So a motor car is working. All of a sudden it stops. So there are technologists who can repair the car and it will again start. That is technology. Now the man is working, stopped. So where is that technology to make it move again. That was... I spoke on this. So they very much appreciated. After my lecture they gathered round me. You remember that? No. Gargamuni: I wasn't there. *Prabhupāda: So actually, in this, at the present moment, they have invented so many technology, but this technology is missing. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Nobody wants to die. And where is that technology, to stop death? What so you think? You are financing many technological institutions, businesses. Why don't you finance an institution which is giving instruction how to stop death? Banker: But as I understood it, you were encouraging death as a form of liberation. Isn't that my understanding? That that was the ideal? Prabhupāda: No, no. Therefore you are not financing. Because you misunderstand. Actually, we are giving the technological knowledge by which one stops death. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Find out that verse. Acyutānanda: Janma karma ca me divyam evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]? Prabhupāda: Yes. You can stop your death. That technology we are teaching. [break] Brahmānanda: ...tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so 'rjuna [Bg. 4.9]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read it. Brahmānanda: Janma is birth, karma is work ca, also, me, of mine, divyam, transcendental, evam. [break] Prabhupāda: : ...technology. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa, His activities, His appearance, His disappearance, this technology, then you also become like Kṛṣṇa. No more birth, no more death, no more disease. This is science. In this life if you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, then you become immune from birth, death, old age and disease. So if you don't like... Not you, mean the people. They say, "No, we don't like Kṛṣṇa consciousness..." But you are so much advanced in science and technology. Where is your technology? That was my question in the Massachusetts Technological... "Where is your technology to stop this death?" Nobody wants to die. Is it not a fact? So where is that technology that human society has given, has been awarded with this profit by such and such great scientist that people will no more die, no more disease, no more birth, no more old age? Nobody wants to become old. Nobody wants to get an old body like me. Rheumatic troubles. Nobody wants. But I am forced to accept. Where is that technology? I was also young man like you. I would like to go back again to that young life, but there is no possibility. So where is that technology? Real problems of life are not solved. Because there is no knowledge. Lack of knowledge. Banker: According to the scientific finds of Dr. Alexander Leaf of Harvard Medical School, it is impossible to lengthen life infinitely, physically, because the cell is not capable of regenerating itself more than fifty times. Prabhupāda: Yes, that we admit. But we are not material. We are spiritual. That is... Banker: Correct. You are not talking about the physical. Prabhupāda: Ah. Physical is my outward dress. Just like your coat, if it becomes old enough, there is no more possibility to use it. You have to throw it away. You have to take another coat. Similarly, physically, I am spirit soul. When my physical body is old enough, useless, then I will have to give it up. I will have to accept another new body. But the question is that I am eternal; *why I am forced to accept a body which will be useless after some time? That is the problem. I am eternal, as spirit soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. I do not die after the annihilation of this body. But why I am forced to accept another body, which will be annihilated? This technology is unknown all over the world. And still they are proud of becoming very advanced in science. (Aside:) Open this. Let them come. Keep it open. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... [Bg. 13.9]. Come forward. [break] ...technology, although it is a problem. But we can supply this technology, to solve this problem. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām... Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. [break] ...modern technologist, scientists, they do not know what is the perfection of life. Now, they are thinking that having a big building, possessing big building, and possessing a few cars and nice bank balance, that is perfection of life. But suppose you get a very nice home, very nice big bank balance, and other amenities. But there is every possibility that as soon as you prepare all these things, you have to go away immediately, death. There is no guarantee that "After finishing this job, I shall be able to enjoy these things." At any moment you can be asked, "Get out." So this labor, so much labor for creating nice residential quarters, bank balance, and others, that is my futile labor because I could not enjoy it. Therefore this is not perfection of life. If there is no guarantee of enjoying what you are creating, then where is the perfection? You create things for enjoyment, but you enjoy it. But there is no guarantee of enjoyment. At any moment you'll be asked, "Get out." Is that perfection? You create things. That's all right. But you enjoy it. But there is no guarantee. Just like I saw in Paris that arch. Napoleon wanted to make an arch. You know... No, you have not been in Paris? Banker: Yes, I've been to Paris. Prabhupāda: Yes, that arch, what is that called, arch? Devotees: Arc de Triomphe. Prabhupāda: Ah. So Napoleon was. But before constructing that arch, he was finished in battle of Waterloo. So all the struggle he made to make France a great country and him to become a great leader was futile. It was not perfectly done. In one statue I saw, "France and Napoleon identical." But France is there; *where is Napoleon? Therefore it is called illusion, māyā. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy. Then how he was sticking to that politics? And because he was sticking to that politics, he was killed. If he would have retired from politics, he would not have been killed. Therefore because he was sticking to that politics means he wanted to enjoy the fruit. But he could not. Therefore we do not know what is the perfection of life. Because we create so*-called paraphernalia of perfection of life, but we are not allowed to enjoy it, therefore we must accept, "There is superior power. Without His sanction I may create very favorable situation, but I may not be allowed to enjoy it." Suppose you are bank manager. If the post is that "Yes, you will be appointed to day and tomorrow you will be kicked out." Will you accept it? Banker: Happens all the time. *Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda laughs) So you have been accustomed to this kick out. Yes, actually, that is the position. We have been accustomed in the kicking out of māyā. māyā rati kaya. (?) There is a..., in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, that we are being kicked out by māyā like football. From that side it is kicked. I come this side, and from this side, I am kicked. I am going that side. That's all. This is our happiness. Guru dāsa: But the question was if one is knowingly going to be kicked out. *Prabhupāda: No, knowingly, no sane man will go. But because he is ignorant, he is making plan to be happy, and one day it comes, "Kick out! Go out!" That is ignorance. Therefore śūdra. Therefore our perfection of life should be, that is recommended in the śāstra, brahma*-saukhyam anantam. You should aspire of happiness which is unlimited. You will never be kicked out from that happiness. That is the idea. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. This is the instruction. You must try for a place where you get eternal life, eternal bliss, eternal knowledge. That is perfection. Banker: In order to seek that, you have established a routine in your life so that you do not waste time thinking about the mundane. Prabhupāda: There is education, proper... This is education, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Banker: Well, you could say the same for the lower group people who work one third of their life in business, spend one third in sleep, and spend one third in whatever else they want to do. That is also a routine. Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow. *Banker: My point is that the average person lives a very similar type of routine even if... Those who do not take business as an end in itself spend one*-third of their life doing that. They spend one third of their life sleeping and they spend one third doing what they want to do. Prabhupāda: Why one third? They are sleeping more than half. Banker: Seeking what you call happiness. Just as in your life you get up at three o'clock, you do a certain thing at that time, go around on a schedule, so you don't have to think about the mundane, and you seek the eternal happiness. *Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and refrain from sinful activities." So if people take advice from these men, simple thing... Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not difficult. Anyone can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And no illicit sex life. No... Even one cannot follow these restrictions, if he chants, he will be benefited. But if he chants and follows these restrictive rules, then he will be perfect in this life. And that is not difficulty. Suppose if I do not eat meat. We are not eating meat. We are not dying. We are eating so many nice things, prepared from vegetables, grains, milk. So that is not very important thing, that one has to eat meat and commit sinful life. So anyone can avoid it. They are not smoking, they are not drinking, they are not dying. So without smoking or without drinking, nobody will die. There are many things. No illicit sex. Why illicit sex? You are human being. You should have taken a woman as married wife and live peacefully. Why illicit sex? So still, if he cannot follow the four rules and regulations, if he agrees to chant only, then all other good qualities will come. And if these things are combined together refraining from sinful activities and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra*-he is sure to become perfect in this life (and) go back to home, back to Godhead. That's all. Because without being purified, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam [Bg. 7.28]. One who is freed from all sinful activities, he can be allowed to enter into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God means the place for the pure, not for the impure. And impurity means sinful activities. So therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me. I give you protection from impure," because... Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyaḥ. Because by impure life, they have committed so many sinful activities. But not that I surrender to Kṛṣṇa and I continue my impure life. Kṛṣṇa can forgive you, whatever impurities are there, "All right, squared up. Don't do it." Ara nare baba. (?) Jagāi and Mādhāi. Jagāi and Mādhāi said, "No sir, no more this life. Yes, I accept." Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately accepted. Not that that confession system, go to the church-conference on Sunday and again come back, on Monday begin again sinful activities, and again go to church on Sunday and confess and nullify it. Not like that. When you deny that "I shall not do it," don't do it again. Then your life is perfect. Ara nare baba.(?) (end) Room Conversation -- September 21, 1973, Bombay Prabhupāda: Now he is there also in Los Angeles, our Umāpati. Brahmānanda: Oh Umāpati. In Los Angeles, yes. I saw him when I went there. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is doing nice there. Now he's gṛhastha. He has got a job in Spiritual Sky. So he is now steady. The Spiritual Sky is doing one thing, that providing so many gṛhastha devotees. Gargamuni: Some activity for them to do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara is managing very nicely, giving them some pocket expense. And instead of renting elsewhere, they are tenant of our house. So we have got tenants, but no trouble from the tenants. Devotee: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Ah. When it was suggested that I purchase house, I said that "I am not going to have this tenants' trouble. That is very botheration." So Karandhara suggested that "We have got our own tenants. Why they should stay in other apartment house? If we have got our house, they will stay, and there will be no trouble." "Then it is all right." They require house. So all gṛhasthas, they have got separate apartment, living very peacefully. So anyway, every one of us should observe strictly the regulative principles and serve sincerely. Kṛṣṇa will help us. *Gargamuni: In Calcutta we're approaching all of the libraries. At least twenty*-five libraries have ordered your books, complete sets. Prabhupāda: So you see, anywhere we can approach. I sold in Bombay all libraries, my previous *Bhāgavatam*. *Gargamuni: About Ten or twelve books, each bill is about five hundred rupees times twenty*-five. That's a lot. Prabhupāda: No, that is a respect, if the libraries and schools, colleges, they keep our books. Gargamuni: Some of them are shocked. We went to the National Library in Calcutta. That's the largest library. They saw your books and they said, "Oh, he is doing this work?" They were so impressed. They had never seen Sanskrit or Bengali printed in foreign countries the way you have done in your books. They said, "This is fan..." There's no one else who is doing this in India, no one. Very impressed. And these men themselves are Sanskrit scholars. He immediately started to read. He said, "Oh, very nice." He said, "It is just right." So he was very enthusiastic. There are two boys. They spend the whole day just going to libraries. Prabhupāda: That has been written by Professor Dayal, Dimock, that "Sanskrit scholars should get good opportunity, and nobody, I think, will deny Swamiji's scholarship." He has said that. Gargamuni: Any name we have in India, any good name we have, is due to you. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) It is due to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. So you can give me massage. Thank you very much. Now you have got very, very great responsible work. I will die. You will live. Kīrtir yasya sa jīvati. But I will not die. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you could never die. (laughter) Gargamuni: We can't accept that. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gargamuni: We refuse to accept that. (end) Room Conversation with Indian Guest -- October 4, 1973, Bombay Guest (1) (Indian man): ...the light is (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no. That means light becomes subordinate to the shadow. Guest (1): Uh, for his experience, for his growth. *Prabhupāda: That is my..., that this experience... You have got some experience, I have got some experience and another has experience. But so far you are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā... Because you say that Aurobindo has written on the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, Kṛṣṇa says: Guest (1): Even if somebody says he is supramental or not, a yogi automatically, when he is in touch with the creative power, he gets the, gets the knowledge of past, present and future. Prabhupāda: Then why your knowledge and my knowledge different? Guest (1): Because of our construction of mind. Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it, that... Guest (1): The vibration comes the same, but one poet may write a poetry of a very high..., you know, Shakespeare... Prabhupāda: I've got... I made... Guest (1): And another can be a lower form. But both of them are true. For me, even in the lower poetry's true, the higher is true. But it is a question of gradation merely, where the man has reached to. Prabhupāda: Well, everything is true, but higher true, or lower true? Guest (1): Both are true. Prabhupāda: Both are true, but both are not the same thing. Then why higher and lower? Guest (1): Because of his evolutionary stage. Prabhupāda: That's all. Then higher must be taken as higher, lower must be taken as lower. Just like a child's mental condition and his father's mental condition, they are not the same thing. Guest (1): Sir, then today's lower, lower, higher, will be tomorrow's lower. Because tomorrow will be another unfolding. Prabhupāda: But, but then you have to admit... Tomorrow he may be higher, but there, there is always the same thing, higher and lower. That you have to admit. Guest (1): It's a manifestation. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): It's a manifestation of (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you have to accept... Just like your son, your son. Tomorrow he'll be grown up like you, but at the present moment, his mental condition, your mental condition, there are different. Guest (1): He's in evolution. Prabhupāda: Yes, evolution. That, I understand. But these two things will continue. Guest (1): As long as he's evolving and I'm evolving separately... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guest (1): As individual... Prabhupāda: No..., Guest (1): ...because we are individualized. Prabhupāda: But do you think that Aurobindo's mental condition or your mental condition, the same? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then here is higher and lower. Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupāda: Why "no"? One time you say, "No..." No, no, this is contradictory. Guest (1): Yes, sir, this is part (indistinct) higher and lower. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Gradations, you can use words. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that will exist always. Guest (1): Always? Prabhupāda: Always exist. Guest (1): They will always exist? Gradations will always exist? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Now where that evolution will end? Guest (1): When there is a world of ānanda, a new type of world... Prabhupāda: But... Guest (1): ...as animals... Prabhupāda: That is, that is an expectation. That will never become. As you believe in Aurobindo, "When there will be," we say, "In the material world, there will be no such thing." Guest (1): The Lord will be minus then, if He cannot create a... Prabhupāda: No, Lord is not minus. Guest (1): ...a divine body on the sun. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Lord is not minus. That you have to take information from the Bhagavad*-gītā, as the Lord says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. In this material world, it is everything duḥkhālayam aśāś... Because you talked of the Bhagavad-gītā, therefore I am talking on the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā states about this material world as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. It is a place of miseries only. Guest (1): Provided this is the body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Provided this is the body. When the... Prabhupāda: But this body you have got. How you can deny? Guest (1): But next evolution has to be another body only, sir. Prabhupāda: That is your expectation. Guest (1): No. Already this, it is before us. The animals have come, and they, above the animals, we are there. We can't be the end of it. The next one is this yogic life, or a yogic body. Prabhupāda: But then... What is that end. That you do not know. Guest (1): It will be always unfolding. Prabhupāda: That means it is always unknown. Guest (1): Yes, the Lord is... Nobody can limit Lord. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, that is unknown to you. But according to Bhagavad*-gītā, it is not unknown. There is a standard. There is a perfection stage. Guest (1): As long as I have got body, I can never know God fully. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right, so long you have got the body. Guest (1): All of our śāstras says... Prabhupāda: But, you hear me. You have come to take some light. You kindly hear. Guest (1): Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: You were talking on the Bhagavad*-gītā. I say on the Bhagavad-gītā. So so long you have got this body, there is no perfection. That's a fact. Guest (1): Yes, sir. *Prabhupāda: But Bhagavad*-gītā says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Bhagavad-gītā says that if you understand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy, janma karma me... First of all, you always remember that whatever we are talking, we are talking on the Bhagavad-gītā, on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, then tyaktvā deham, giving up this body, you'll not have to accept another material body. This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. But so long you'll accept this body, material body, you'll remain imperfect. There cannot be any perfection. It may be gradation. There are eight million, four hundred forms of life. There is Brahmā, and there is ant also. Both of them are living entities. But the status quo of the ant, and the status quo of Brahmā is not the same, higher consciousness or mental... So they're all in the material world. None of them are perfect. Between Brahmā and ant, there are millions of other living entities, eight million. Not only one million. Millions. 8,400,000 forms of life. They're all imperfect because they have accepted this material body, either Brahmā or ant, but your perfection will come when you do not accept this material body. That is the, I mean to, the destination of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti: [Bg. 4.9] "After quitting this body, he does not accept any more this material body." This, that means he, he becomes perfect. That is stated in another place. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam, nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ [Bg. 8.15]. Mām upetya. Find out this... Now, unless you take some standard book of knowledge, we cannot talk. If you talk whimsically, I talk whimsically, then there will be no end of talk. We have to... Because you told me the other day: "In the Bhagavad-gītā..." That is all right. Here is a standard. Everyone accepts. Now..., You have found it? Śrutakīrti: Mām upetya punar janma... [Bg. 8.15]. Prabhupāda: Mām upetya tu kaunteya... Śrutakīrti: Oh. Girl: May I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: No, you don't ask. We are talking. *Śrutakīrti: Ā*-brahma...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: Yes. Now here is the perfectional stage. Now what is the translation? Śrutakīrti: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place, but one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again." Prabhupāda: So as soon as you have to take birth, you have to die. Just like Aurobindo took birth; *he died. Everyone. Everyone, even Brahmā. It may be a long duration or a small duration. That doesn't matter. Everyone. That is the perfectional knowledge, how to solve this birth and death problem. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. As soon as we are under these clutches of birth and death, old age and disease, we are imperfect. We are imperfect. Whatever I may be, you may be, but if I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, then I am imperfect. Therefore the perfectional, perfection of life is when you haven't got to take birth or die or become diseased and old. That is perfection. Guest (1): That world must be somewhere in existence. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. That is, that is indicated... Guest (1): But that... Prabhupāda: Yad gatvā na nivartante tad... [Bg. 15.6]. Guest (1): But that, the pressure of that world can come on our world also... Prabhupāda: No, that world will not. Guest (1): ...can become our world. Prabhupāda: That knowledge... Just like we are getting this knowledge. Kṛṣṇa came. Kṛṣṇa is giving us the knowledge. You can get the knowledge and make your life perfect. Guest (1): No, But that world must be in existence somewhere. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is existing. That is existing. Yes. That is... That is stated here in the Bhagavad... Guest (1): But we can bring it down here with us. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not your servant, that you can bring it down. That is not possible. Guest (1): Somebody has to work for it. Prabhupāda: No, that is another, I mean to say, rascal proposition. You cannot bring that. Guest (1): Somebody has to. Because the creation can be... Prabhupāda: No, no. "Somebody has to," that is your theory. But that is not possible. Guest (1): The creation is always unfolding, more and more, and becoming of more and more. Prabhupāda: No, no. Creation is already there. Your knowledge is imperfect. You do not know what is that creation. Guest (1): Few billion years before there was no human being living here. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Guest (1): Hm? Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom, that statement. Guest (1): Is...? Prabhupāda: Rascaldom. Guest (1): Pardon me, Sir? Prabhupāda: Rascaldom. Foolishness. Guest (1): Foolishness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Well, today... Prabhupāda: Because, because you say, "Two millions of years ago..." Now... Guest (1): Six billion, whatever you may say... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Whatever amount of time, one can say, before that, there was no life here. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but Vedic literature, Vedic literatures, you see. These four yugas. Now, in the Bhagavad*-gītā... We are talking always: Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. You study Bhagavad-gītā. You'll understand. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam. One yuga means forty-three lakhs of years. And multiply by... Eh? Devotee: Mrs. Nair has come. *Prabhupāda: Let her come in, yes. And forty*-three lakhs of years, multiply it by one thousand. Then how much it comes? *Guest (1): Forty*-three multiplied by... *Prabhupāda: Forty*-three lakhs multiplied by one thousand. Guest (1): Four hundred thirty crores. Prabhupāda: Thirty crores. Guest (1): Four hundred thirty crores. Prabhupāda: That is only twelve hours of Brahmā. So what you can two million? Guest (1): No, no. I said six billion... Prabhupāda: Six billion, you may say, but this is only twelve hours of Brahmā. So just see how long he's living. Hundreds of millions of years he's living, still. And you say two millions years. Guest (1): No, when you say Brahmā, you mean Supreme or the...? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Brahmā is a person like you and me. (Hindi) Jaya. (Hindi) Brahmā is also a living entity. Just like... (Hindi) We are all living entities. Similarly, Brahmā is also a living entity. Just like you are bigger than the ant, Brahmā is bigger than me. That is the difference only. But he's also living entity. So he lives for millions and millions of years. (Hindi) So the other gentleman not yet, not has yet come, our Asnani. So let him come. Then we shall begin talking. So it is not a fact that two millions of years ago, there was no living entity. This is all rascaldom. Time is immemorial, and many, many millions of years ago there were living entities, more perfect living entities. They're still living. But we have no information. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā's one twelve hours, if you believe in the Bhagavad..., statement of Bhagavad*-gītā... sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. Read that. Prabhupāda: Translation. Śrutakīrti: "By human calculation, a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahmā's one day. And such also is the duration of his night." *Prabhupāda: Now, that, this forty*-three lakhs of years, multiplied by one thousand, how many years it is? Guest (1): Four hundred thirty crores. Prabhupāda: Four hundred and thirty...? Guest (1): Crores. Prabhupāda: Crores. That is day. Similarly, four hundred thirty crores, night. Guest 2 (Indian man): Four thousand, three hundred crores. *Prabhupāda: Just see. So four thousand, three hundred crores, that is day. And similarly night. Now this becomes complete twenty*-four hours. Similarly one month. Similarly one year. He lives for one thousand, one hundred years. Now calculate. Śrutakīrti: You have a total here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: You have a total here. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śrutakīrti: Says, "These hundred years, by earth calculations, total to three hundred and eleven trillion and forty million, and forty million earth years." *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you believe in Bhagavad*-gītā, that is different thing. You cannot say all these things. But if you take this also, that also, that is another thing. We have to take a standard. Ācchā. (Hindi) I have got some important engagement with Mrs. Nair. She's the proprietor of the land. So... Guest (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi ) So you can go and see the temple, ārati. (end) Conversation at Airport -- October 26, 1973, Bombay *Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to understand the value of life. The modern system of education and civilization is so degraded that people have forgotten the value of life. Generally, in this material world everyone is forgetful of the value of life, but the human form of life is a chance to awaken the importance of life. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long one is not awakened to the consciousness of self-realization, the foolish living entity, whatever he is doing is defeat for him. This defeat is going on in the lower species of life because they cannot understand what is the value of life. Their consciousness is not advanced. But even in the human form of life, the same defeat prolongs, that is not very good civilization. That is almost animal civilization. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānyā etat paśubhir narāṇām. If people are simply engaged in the four principles of bodily demands-eating, sleeping, mating and defending*-that is visible in animal life also, so that is not very advancement of civilization. So our attempt Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to come to the responsibility of human life. This is our Vedic civilization. The problem of life is not the difficulties for a few years of this duration of life. The real problem of life is how to solve the repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. People are embarrassed with so many problems of life, but the real problem of life is how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. So people are callous. They have become so dull-headed that they do not understand the problem of life. Long, long ago when Viśvāmitra Muni saw Mahārāja Daśaratha, so Mahārāja Daśaratha inquired from the Viśvāmitra Muni, aihistaṁ yat taṁ punar janma jayaya (?): "My dear sir, the attempt that you are trying to conquer over death, how that business is going on nicely? Is there any interruption?" So this is our Vedic civilization, how to conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. But at the modern time there is no such information, neither anybody is interested. Even big, big professors, they do not know what is there after life. They do not believe even that there is life after death. So this is a blind civilization going on. We are trying our bit to educate them that the aim of life, especially in the human form of life, is different from the bodily necessities of life: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many millions of persons, one may attempt to become successful in his life." Siddhaye, siddhi. This is siddhi, how to conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. And manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. The modern civilized man is so dull, he does not know what is siddhi. They think that "If I get some money and one bungalow and one car, that is siddhi." That is not siddhi. You can get a few years a very nice bungalow, a car, nice family. But any moment this arrangement will be finished and you have to accept another body. That you do not know. And neither they do care to know it. So they have become so dull-headed, although they are very much proud of education, advancement of civilization. But we are protesting. We are protesting. I am not protesting. Kṛṣṇa is protesting. Brahmānanda: We called them. We gave them invitation to come to a press meeting. Śrutakīrti: We could distribute this... *Prabhupāda: They are not interested. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They clearly says that "What this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or saṅkīrtana will do?" They says, yes. (laughs) They have become so dull. The Bhagavad*-gītā, the culture of India, they have forsaken. They are now taking culture from Russia. Yes. This is the advancement of education. They are taking instruction from Lenin than from Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. Especially in India. Outside India they are interested, so many European, American, Western countries' boys and girls, they have joined and sacrificed their life. But in India they are callous. They think that "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? We know that. It is very old story. Now we want technology." Guest (1) (Indian man): In Delhi we have got quite a big number of good life members and helpful people. *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are, certainly. India is born Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means... Amongst the mass of people the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but amongst the so*-called educated, advanced, they are trying to forget. This is the difficulty. Guest (1): Physical life has become so difficult... *Prabhupāda: It must be difficult. It must be difficult, because the so*-called advancement has not helped the people. In our childhood we purchased ghee one rupee, first-class. Now it is not available. And this is advancement of civilization. Guest (1): The population has increased so much. Prabhupāda: No, no, this is not the question, population. Population was... Formerly one man used to beget one hundred children. From *Mahābhārata* we understand that Dhṛtarāṣṭra, his name is mentioned because he was king. That means at that time people were able to beget one hundred children. And who is begetting one hundred children now? One, two, three, four, that's all. How the population can be increased now? It is all bogus propaganda. Guest (1): What do you think is the solution of these difficulties? Prabhupāda: Solution of difficulty is to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Yes, corruption in the politics... *Prabhupāda: Yes, corruption will increase, sinful life increase, cheating. Mandāḥ sumanda*-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. Misfortune. These things will... Guest (1): Adulteration of food. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Even government cannot give nice food to the people, what to speak of nice government. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam... You have got the copy? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ādya. During Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's reign everything was ample supply. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. You have got that verse. Pradyumna: I just have the black one. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. During Mahārāja Parīkṣit's time, one black man was attempting to kill a cow. Immediately the king wanted to kill him, immediately: "Oh, who are you?" It is the duty of the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma-svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. It is the duty of the vaiśyas to protect the cows, to increase agricultural activities and trade. But they are now interested in producing electronic parts. No go-rakṣya, no vāṇijyam, no food production. Cheap profit, and for eating, let there be slaughterhouse and eat meat. And to digest meat, you drink wine. This is being taught. So you create the situation and when you suffer, then why should we lament? We have created this situation, godless civilization, do not follow the direction of the śāstras. When we follow, what is that kāmam? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. So if there is regular rainfall, then you get all necessities of life. And the cows were so happy that the milk bag was so full that the pasturing ground became muddy with milk. They were supplying so much milk. So arrangement should be made how you can get more milk and more foodgrains. Then the whole economic problem will be solved. But instead of getting more milk, they are slaughtering cows, innocent animals. So people have become demons, rascals, so they must suffer. There is no other way. (end) Room Conversation -- October 31, 1973, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Now, the Kṛṣṇa says that bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. So it has emanated from Kṛṣṇa. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. This is the statement of the *Vedas* and... So how would you explain that a person can produce such huge quantity of material things, at least to make them understand how it is produced from the person? These are to be scientifically explained, wherefrom so much vast mass of water came. That you have to explain scientifically. Otherwise how they will accept? Simply by saying, It has come from Kṛṣṇa," they will not accept. Guest (1) Indian man: Yes. We have to convince them about the method of approach. Prabhupāda: Yes. If these boys, in their scientific language, they try to convince, that will be more effective. We are generally speaking that "Water has come from Kṛṣṇa," or "The earth has come from Kṛṣṇa." That may be blind. But if it is scientifically presented, how it has come from Kṛṣṇa, then they cannot refute so easily. So that I am engaging this doctor of chemistry, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Rāya Rāmānanda. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's two personal associates, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Rāmānanda. Guest (1): Yes, and Rāya Rāmānanda. Very, very strange coincidence. Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Idaṁ hi puṁsas śrutasya vā... You find out this verse. You have to find out the... No, no, from here. You have to take the index. Where is Paṇḍita? Paṇḍita is not here? Guest (1): Pradyumnajī. Pradyumna. You call him paṇḍita? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Rightly so. Prabhupāda: He is American paṇḍita. Paṇḍitjī? Śrutakīrti: He is out. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's out. *Guest (1): . He came to me today, asked for a copy of Harināmāmṛta*-vyākaraṇa, which we have... Prabhupāda: Hm. You find out the verse: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. *Guest (1): We have to attend a Bhāgavata*-paṭha, at 3.30. Prabhupāda: Where? *Guest (1): Rādhā*-Dāmodara. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So who is reading? Guest (1): Nṛsiṁhānanda Goswami. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. This verse is very important verse. Guest (1): Very important. *Prabhupāda: Huh. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ [SB 1.5.22]. Gurudāsa: That volume is packed, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. Nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yad avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. Nirūpita means it is already decided. The perfection of your education is this. What is that? Nāmāny anantasya. Anantasya. Yaśaḥ aṅkitāni. Yaśaḥ. That is perfection. If you scientific knowledge, philosophical knowledge; cannot establish the glories of the Supreme Lord. Guest (1): Then they are useless. Prabhupāda: Useless. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. It is already taken. Nirūpita means there is no argument. It is already concluded. Guest (1): Your business is not to prove or disprove, but to glorify Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. By your knowledge. If you are scientist, you are chemist, through chemical challenge you try to glorify the Supreme Lord. If you are physicist, from physical point of view, try to explain. If you are scientist... Anyway, because ultimate... Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Any knowledge, that is... You have to approve the Supreme. That is real perfect knowledge. And at the present moment men of knowledge they are rejecting. Because they cannot explain, they are rejecting. They do not bother. Guest (1): Modern science has cleared the deck very much for religion. They are not so dogmatic as the old scientists used to be. Prabhupāda: What do they say now? Guest (1): Well, you see, the modern scientific discoveries have led to the stage at which the science can no more say that religion is humbug. Now they say, "Well, we do not know. Honestly speaking, that is the position," they say. Prabhupāda: That is good. Guest (1): Yes. "We do not know. We know thus far and not beyond." So that's a great achievement. That's a great achievement. Prabhupāda: No. At least, they should not teach because they do not know. Guest (1): Well, the topmost scientists are much saner now. They don't make... Prabhupāda: Yes. But the best thing will be, they may not talk all nonsense. Guest (1): They don't talk nonsense. Prabhupāda: If they admit they do not know, why do they speak so much? Guest (1): One scientist has said about matter. He says, "Matter is I know not what." This is his definition of matter. "Matter is I know not what." So no more dogmatism. No more dogmatism. Guest (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (1): I suppose you will come now when this thing is constructed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): We shall try to construct it... Prabhupāda: Quickly. Guest (1): Let us expedite this so that Prabhupāda may come again very soon. (Hindi conversation) (end) Room Conversation -- November 1, 1973, New Delhi *Prabhupāda: ...gatvā duḥkhānusaṅgaminaḥ. There is misery. Even you go to the Moon planet... This is Bhāgavata. Before going to your Moon planet here is the information: "Anywhere you go rascal these things will follow, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9] and inconveniences. You'll have to suffer." So one's who's, one who is intelligent, then: "Where shall I find real happiness?" That is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore one requires to be very, very intelligent to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva, sarvatra bhasananvita (?). The Śrīdhara Svāmī gives note, sarvatra lokāntare 'pi. Even if you go to other planets... Now these rascals are going now, trying, not going. And in the Bhāgavata says, lokāntare 'pi. Even in other planets. That means they were going in other planets. Otherwise how it is stated, lokāntare, "in other planets also"? From the statement it appears that people used to go. And here, Arjuna went to heavenly planet. And there the heavenly prostitute came to Arjuna. She's prostitute. So when Arjuna refused, that... His father is Indra... Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Arjuna said that "You have connection with my father. Therefore you are my mother." *Śrutakīrti: You mentioned him in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta purport. When one yogi was performing severe austerities, Lord Indra would send the dancing girls. They were called... Prabhupāda: Yes. Apsarās. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: Apsarās. Śrutakīrti: He would send them. Prabhupāda: The same thing here. Just like prostitute, they are going to the club. The father is going also; the son is going. And the prostitute is the same. Everywhere, this material happiness, wine, women... Brahmānanda: I think there... That boy, Ranchor, his father said, "You leave Kṛṣṇa consciousness and I will give you a car and women." Prabhupāda: Yes. Your father also said like that. (laughter) Here father will feel shame to advise the son, or the son will feel shame to talk about sex with father or mother. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: About sex one can talk with friends, not with father and mother. Brahmānanda: Not with... *Prabhupāda: But in western countries it is very open talk. And open business also. Sarvatra. Sarvatra lokāntare 'pi vasanavagatya iha duḥkhānusaṅghanena, nivṛtta*-kāma...(?) So one should give up this material sense gratification. The more you become entangled in material sense gratification, more you'll have to remain in this material world. Iti tiprokti malakam taṁ proktaṁ kāma karma prokta gena iti, ahaṁ deva upasya yesantai saṅghata nirvaira adrstitvaṁ samyag anvasya duḥkha, sukha-duḥkha eva, sukha-duḥkha...(?) Water is wasted? Śrutakīrti: Almost full. Very slow. *Prabhupāda: Vīrarāghavācārya: deha*-geha-gehayoḥ ātmiya buddhiḥ jihasaya tyāgecchāya (?). Ātma-buddhi, this family, society, friendship and love. Yes. To feel very much affection... What is called? Attached. Tyāgecchā. It should be given up. Therefore the sannyāsa āśrama. Just try to deliver this message very... Everyone is in darkness. Therefore I was speaking. They do not know what is siddhi. Yesterday, you were present? Yes. Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is siddhi. What is perfection of life, they do not know. Neither they have information. Brahmānanda: Simply they talk about it. Prabhupāda: All foolish. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind man leading other blind men. There is no sense. Whole civilization. It is, this Kṛṣṇa con..., our movement is a challenge to everyone, a challenge, genuine challenge. After all, everyone wants happiness, but they do not know what is happiness. So you can make few puris and kittri. That's all. Brahmānanda: Śrutakīrti! Prabhu. Śrutakīrti: Pālikā is already cooking. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: Puris, he said. Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi can also be... Śrutakīrti: Puri or parāṭā, I think, would be... Prabhupāda: Parāṭā can do. Śrutakīrti: Yes, she is... Prabhupāda: So you can give me massage now. Brahmānanda: Massage him. Śrutakīrti: Yes. All right. *Brahmānanda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya... Prabhupāda: Sarvatra vasanava gatya (?). So if this advertisement attracts some people, then I can remain here. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: To organize this. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: For some time. Oh, they have got a bath also? Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Śrutakīrti: Yamunā has... She has... Prabhupāda: Where is Yamunā? Śrutakīrti: I guess she is out shopping also. Prabhupāda: Sarvatra vyasanad apy atra... (?) Now here, as soon as we came, we thought it very nice, and immediately... Śrutakīrti: So many things. Prabhupāda: So many inconveniences. (laughter) Vyasanad apy atra. Wherever you go, even though you found it is very convenient, very nice, you must know there is, there is inconvenience. Don't be so sure that it is full of nice things. No. That is not possible. Sarvatra vyasanad api. What is that? Śrutakīrti: Fifteen minutes of water. Prabhupāda: Oh... So you, you can get that connection disconnected now. Otherwise you're going... Śrutakīrti: Yes. I could also connect over to here. Prabhupāda: Yes. For the time being, you disconnect. Otherwise it will fall down. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: With water. Then you create another inconvenience. Yes. That's it. You have taken your bath? Not yet? Brahmānanda: In the morning, we took. Prabhupāda: You have taken? Brahmānanda: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So where is your oil? Śrutakīrti: I have it. [break] (end) Room Conversation -- November 2, 1973, New Delhi *Prabhupāda: ...for others it is said. For Kṛṣṇa, it is mercy. The gopīs came with lust. They became purified with Kṛṣṇa's association. Gopīs actually, superficially, externally, they are, means, nitya*-siddha, ever-liberated expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy, internal energy. But apparently, they left their father, husband and came to Kṛṣṇa. So that is, from Vedic principle, it is wrong. One young girl cannot go to other young man, giving up the protection of father, brother, and... So they did it. So they, according to Vedic principle, it is sinful. But because it was related with Kṛṣṇa, they became purified. That means any way, if one comes in contact with Kṛṣṇa, he becomes purified. Even though he's sinful. That is Kṛṣṇa's... That is the benefit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sun is never infected. Rather, the infected area becomes sterilized by the sunshine. This is the process. That is explained. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya [SB 10.33.29]. One who is very powerful, he has no fault. So how your temperature is going on? Śyāmasundara: Everything is getting very nicely improved. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Śyāmasundara: You've got some cold? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: I got everything, still, I haven't got anything. (laughter) So you can invite the neighboring people. We can hold an evening class or morning class. I'll give you one matter for... [break] This is a nice place. If you invite the neighboring..., they may come and take advantage. Śyāmasundara: It looks like an American neighborhood. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: It looks like an American neighborhood. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice place. So you are also helping Tejas? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow morning I'm meeting with Indira Gandhi... Prabhupāda: Oh! Śyāmasundara: ...and the American ambassador. Prabhupāda: If Indira Gandhi comes one day... Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...that will be very nice. Śyāmasundara: We're thinking if we can get either one of those two, then everyone else will come very easily. They'll give money, everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. It is very nice. Indira Gandhi knows our movement. Is it not? Yes, she knows. Śyāmasundara: Yes. I approached her that you are the great, the greatest emissary of Kṛṣṇa, of Indian culture outside of India. So... Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But these rascals do not appreciate it. Others are appreciating. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: The foreign countries, they're appreciating, "Here is real Indian culture." They should also appreciate by the result. Śyāmasundara: Yes, that's the point. Prabhupāda: By the result, not theoretical. Śyāmasundara: No. So we were showing pictures and books. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Every sane man should appreciate. When European and American young men, who are after material sense gratification, they're taking sannyāsa, it is not joke. They should appreciate it. In an age where material sense enjoyment is very prominent, and they give up everything for Kṛṣṇa, and they're going far away from their comfortable position... Just like Brahmānanda has gone to Africa. So what for? Unless they appreciate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how they take up this job? This is practical. There is no question of theoretical. Brahmānanda: You said that last night when you spoke that about we are actually siddhas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: We are not... Prabhupāda: That I wanted to prove... (laughs) Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...that these boys are siddhas. Others, they do not know what is siddhi. Brahmānanda: They have not even left family connection, you said. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That I... That Mr. Kokoor... Brahmānanda: Yeah. Prabhupāda: ...talking high talks. Simply high words will not do. Śyāmasundara: I think, I think it will be good, though, if we flatter Mrs. Gandhi also, a little flattery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Let her think that we are praising her leadership of the country. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, flatter that "You can say that you'll be glorified when India will be glorified. So this culture will glorify India." Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: "And Prabhupāda has introduced." Śyāmasundara: It is now already... Prabhupāda: "So you should cooperate with us." Śyāmasundara: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: "This is India's original culture, Kṛṣṇa culture." And ninety*-percent of the people, they are Kṛṣṇa devotees, of India. There is no doubt about it. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So... And this has got the potency of being spread all over the world. All over the world. Śyāmasundara: Hm. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Some news has come out in Jugantar that Queen Elizabeth is reading our Bhagavad*-gītā. *Śyāmasundara: That was from that time David Wynne gave her that Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: ...to read while she was sitting for him for the sculpture. Prabhupāda: So it has come to her attention. Śyāmasundara: I think he has told that story to several people and the word has spread. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: Where did you hear it from? Prabhupāda: Anyway, that, our, our architect, that... Brahmānanda: Surabhi. Oh, Mr. Lahiri. Prabhupāda: He has seen in the Jugantar Press. Śyāmasundara: It was in the newspaper here in India. (laughter) She did! She read it one day for three hours, four hours. Brahmānanda: You're kidding! *Prabhupāda: And the latest report is that Bhagavad*-gītā is selling fifteen thousand copies per month in London. Who told me? Thirty-thousand copies sold in two months. Śyāmasundara: It was MacMillan's biggest selling book in England. Prabhupāda: Yes. That also you can inform her. And present her one copy. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. One copy of Bhāgavata. Śyāmasundara: I gave her one copy of... Prabhupāda: Who arranged this meeting? Śyāmasundara: Well, we did. We just went. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Śyāmasundara: And with the American Ambassador, we have left him today one copy of Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: And tomorrow we can... Prabhupāda: You can refer that Mr., what is his, last ambassador? Śyāmasundara: Keath, Keating. Prabhupāda: Keating. Śyāmasundara: Yes, I already have given him one copy... Prabhupāda: He knows us very well. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that...? He gave us some letter? Śyāmasundara: We gave already that copy to the ambassador. Prabhupāda: He liked this movement. Śyāmasundara: Also I gave the papers... Prabhupāda: And "We are American. You can ask about this movement." Śyāmasundara: Yes, I said that also. I said, "Because most of your disciples are American, and you are an American practically..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Ah. "So you can test us. You can test us." Śyāmasundara: Also politically speaking, now it is time Mrs., Mrs. Gandhi is being criticized now by Hindus because she took sides with these Arabs during this war. Prabhupāda: Hm. She is very highly criticized. Śyāmasundara: So she needs to get some political benefit from associating with Hindus during some functions just now. Prabhupāda: Yes. That will counteract. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: "And also he needs that association with India leaders. Because America is..." Prabhupāda: Yes. If she comes, then we shall have to give a nice speech so that she may be convinced. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Very flatter... I think, I think we should flatter her completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: No controversy. And this... Prabhupāda: No, that, "If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, naturally everything will be correct." Just like Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja was Kṛṣṇa conscious. And can, you can read the portion during the reign of Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, how nature was helping. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa. You keep one set of books here. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. "Due to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything was going on nicely. So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you are on the post of Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. So if you take standard, it will be good for everyone. And so far secular state is concerned, we are actually secular. In this movement, all classes of men are here." Śyāmasundara: I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you'll have to preach to her. Because she won't listen to... If I can just get her to agree to be the chief guest. Prabhupāda: And accept the book. That is all right. Śyāmasundara: That's all I can do. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: If you preach to her, she'll listen. Prabhupāda: Yes. yes. Śyāmasundara: But she won't listen if I preach to her. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not possible. That I know. You simply try to... Śyāmasundara: Induce her to come. Prabhupāda: Yes, to join us at least one day. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And accept the book, read it, at least the introductory portion, preface portion. Śyāmasundara: I can show her politically how it would be advantageous for her to come. That much I can do. Prabhupāda: I, I... I don't think you should advise him, her... Śyāmasundara: I mean I don't need to really. Prabhupāda: ...about politics. Śyāmasundara: She knows it. She knows that you... And also this American ambassador could use some favorable publicity. *Prabhupāda: No, this Bhagavad*-gītā contains everything-politics, sociology, religion, philosophy. So this culture should be spread; this India's culture, original culture, should be spread. And we are endeavoring that. And it is becoming successful. Śyāmasundara: Also we are meeting the Minister of Defence, Jagjivana Rama. And Dr. Karan Singh is coming back on Monday. He's been out. And Kumar Shankara Diksit tomorrow morning also, the Minister of... Prabhupāda: Kumar Shankara Diksit. Śyāmasundara: ...Home Affairs. Minister of Home Affairs. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Big post. Prabhupāda: Well, these politicians are politicians. Anyway, we... Śyāmasundara: At least, if they come, everything will be successful. Prabhupāda: Indira, simply Indira Gandhi comes, it will be tremendous success. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Crowds will come. People will donate money for the pandala. Prabhupāda: So when the pandala will be erected? Tejas: It will begin on the fourth, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: It will begin on the fourth. Prabhupāda: That place is nice, but it is not as public as the L.I.C. Tejas: We need some... For that reason, we need some very good chief guest and some good publicity. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: We arranged some newspaper publicity today. So... And he's arranged banners and posters and... Enough people will come. Prabhupāda: You have got some fruits? Śyāmasundara: Mostly, I think they'll come because they remember before, when you were here... [break] (end) Room Conversation -- November 3, 1973, New Delhi Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] It is there? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where it is quoted from? Pradyumna: Quoted from *Bhāgavatam*, *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam*, 1.10.11. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: First Canto, Tenth Chapter, Eleventh Verse. Prabhupāda: Make note there. Pradyumna: Translation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: "The intelligent, who have understood the Supreme Lord in association with pure devotees and have become freed from bad materialistic association can never avoid hearing the glories of the Lord even though they have heard them only once." Prabhupāda: Hm. So this will protect you from the influence of māyā. Read that again. Pradyumna: Sanskrit or translation. Prabhupāda: Translation. Pradyumna: "The intelligent, who have understood the Supreme Lord in association with pure devotees and have become freed..." Brahmānanda: Well, it means... I thought it had something to do with civil servants, where they all live in a dormitory and eat in a large hall. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Brahmānanda: And they all contribute... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...part of their salary. Prabhupāda: So if you make that association, that will not help you. Joint mess, dormitory. Or joint family. Just like in India. There are five brothers. They're earning. Father and mother is the leader. They're handing over the money, and the father, mother managing. That is Indian system, a joint family. So joint family or joint mess, the same thing. So if you make like that, a center, then it is no good. You must get spiritual strength. Karmī strength will not help you. What they are doing in Babar(?) Road, these girls? Guru dāsa: They're preparing some śṛṅgāra for Deity. Prabhupāda: Why not here? Why go to Babar Road, spend twenty rupees? Guru dāsa: According to them, that sometimes they have to go in the center of town. *Prabhupāda: Nobody has intelligence. It will not, it will not stay. It will be spoiled. Joint mess organization. In Los Angeles, they're also doing business. They're going to sell books. But regulative principle is observed. Huge expenditure they have got. No center is so improved as Los Angeles. We have purchased six houses. And I wanted immediately two lakhs, immediately sent. You cannot pay. You simply want to take. In India, nobody can pay. If I want two lakhs, nobody can pay. But all this money have been taken from U.S.A. I asked Bali Mardana, I asked Karandhara. They paid me for this Bombay affair, sixteen, eighteen lakhs. [break] ...and breathing also does not stop. It goes very slow. Therefore he cannot be immortal. And Bhagavad*-gītā proposes, that is wonderful thing, if you can stop death. And whole spiritual life means how to stop death. That is Bhāgavata's instruction, "Don't accept guru, don't accept father, don't accept, or don't be father, don't be mother, don't be, if you cannot stop death." Either you don't accept, or don't become. Just like they want guru. So don't accept a guru who cannot stop your death. And from guru's side, it is advised, "Don't become guru if you cannot stop the death of your disciple." This is Bhāgavatam's statement. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to stop death, live eternally with Kṛṣṇa, go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our movement. So our guru gives us this opportunity, no more death. Tyaktvā... After leaving this body, you don't accept any more material body. And if you don't accept material body, then there is no death. As soon as your spiritual, you remain in spiritual body, there is no death. There is no birth also. Death is concomitant where birth is there. If the death is stopped, then there is no birth. And if there is no birth, there is no disease, there is no old age. This is the process. So birth, death, old age, disease can be stopped only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if you don't like to be Kṛṣṇa conscious then what is the use of becoming your disciple, and if the guru, if he cannot stop your death, birth and death, then what is your becoming guru? So 'mṛtatvāya kalpate. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Find out this verse. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete. *Śrutakīrti: Y*-a-m? *Prabhupāda: Yeah, y*-a-m. Yaṁ hi... Get this light on. [break] ...there is birth and death and old age and... That is liberation. That is siddhi. That is perfection. These rascals are making plans, material plans. Jawaharlal Nehru made plan of this New Delhi. But he is kicked out. "Go out!" And now he has become a dog in Switzerland. Śrutakīrti: In Sweden. Prabhupāda: In Sweden. Śyāmasundara: What? Śrutakīrti: He's one of two dogs in Sweden. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja told me. Some astrologer has... Brahmānanda: He's taken his birth there. Śyāmasundara: Ah. *Prabhupāda: So they, these so*-called leaders are so fools that they... Therefore they don't believe in next life. Because that is very horrible for them. But the next life is there. Just like we, we, we have our next life. We had our previous life, then now another life, another life. So this simple thing they cannot understand. Nature is controlling this, next life, next life. Otherwise why so many varieties of life? So they have no brain. They are simply making plan for the fifty years duration of life. That's all. And even from practical point of view, suppose you are constructing a very nice house, and if you know that next day you'll be kicked out, you'll die, will you do that? But it is a fact. Next day or two days after, you'll die. That's a fact. So first of all, make arrangement that you'll not die, you'll be able to live here. That is their foolishness. Śyāmasundara: Sometimes they take refuge in the idea that: "My family will live on," or "My species..." or "my..." Prabhupāda: That's... Śyāmasundara: "...children..." Prabhupāda: ...all right. The family will live on not forever. They'll live also, say, for few days. Just we go sometimes in... Just like in England, the castles are there, very old castle, thousand years, two thousand... Even this Westminster Abbey and palace, but which king has lived for there permanently? And now, if you know more, if the king has, by his work, become something else. Not necessarily he'll become a king in that house. He may become a dog there. This science they do not know. And they are proud of their education, culture. Suppose we are constructing the Vṛndāvana temple or Bombay temple. It is also certain we shall not live, but our attempt to construct that temple will be recorded in Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Because he has spent his energy for My service." That will be our gain. Others, they, whatever they are working... Ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva*-dharmataḥ. Find out this verse. Ko vā. Ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. This is in Bhāgavata. Devotee: Bhāgavata. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Does that guarantee that he'll become a devotee again? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he had already practiced. So if he, if he remembers, if he's intelligent, that "I've got this nice position, according to śāstra, because I had some good devotional activities in my past life. Now let me finish. I'll not fall down. I have no economic problem. I have got so much facilities. So let me advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." If he gets this... He'll get that sense. Śyāmasundara: He automatically gets that standard. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm. Śyāmasundara: So he must come back to that point again, starting there. Prabhupāda: Just like you have given. Your children are given the good chance. Śyāmasundara: Ah yeah. Prabhupāda: The Sarasvatī's given chance. Now he's, from very childhood, she's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare... Śyāmasundara: yes. Prabhupāda: He's criticizing: "Mālatī, this old man is smoking." He's getting the saṁskāra from the childhood, as we got it from good father. Yes. So here is a chance. And that will not... It is not childish, Sarasvatī's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London, she would finish sixteen rounds? Śyāmasundara: Six. Prabhupāda: Six. She was... Just see. She has got determination. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And all the children. So that will not go in vain. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Never go in vain. This is her... She had executed devotional service in her past life. Therefore from the very beginning of her life, she's in association of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, very beginning. This is the chance. Now it is the duty of the father and mother, and when she grows up it is her duty to finish this business, go to back to home. This is chance. So where is the loss? Even she failed last life, then where is the loss? She's getting another chance, whereas the ordinary karmīs, they'll not get that chance. That is explained. Read it. Śrutakīrti: One who has forsaken his material occupation to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything. Prabhupāda: That is the translation. Purport? *Śrutakīrti: "Purport: As far as the duties of mankind are concerned. There are innumerable duties. Every man is duty*-bound, not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Mahārāja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly Citraketu also fell down due to his offense..." Prabhupāda: Therefore we forbid to take to the karmī's life. Because at the time of death, if he remains a karmī, then he'll have to take birth as a karmī. That is the risk. So this regulated life, holding class, chanting, that will not make us fall down. That is essential. It is essential, regulate, to follow the regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds, holding class. You can do anything, but this will keep us alive to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform. If you neglect that, then that is very risky. Even if you get next life birth in a rich man's family, that is not guarantee. Because generally, rich man's sons, they go astray. They get money for nothing and they want to squander it. And material world, if you have got money, so many bad associates will come and help you to squander your money and spoil your life. Because you have got money, then so many friends will come. As soon as you have no money, nobody will come. Even your wife, children will not come. Therefore hariṣye tad dhanaṁ śanaiḥ. Kṛṣṇa, first of all, takes away the money, makes him poor so that everyone will neglect him, and because he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, he'll take Kṛṣṇa, "Sir, I have no other alternative. Please give me protection." That is also another Kṛṣṇa's policy, special favor, that "This man wanted Me. Now he's going astray. All right. That's all right. Take everything of his..." Śyāmasundara: Like that man Patrick. Three businesses failed. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was my case also. Since my Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "You do this." But I thought that "Let me become first of all rich man. Then I shall do," so He... Every business was... Śyāmasundara: Maybe that is my case also. *Prabhupāda: That is special favor. In the beginning I was thinking, "Now my godbrothers, they have taken sannyāsa. They are begging from door to door. Why shall I beg? Let me earn money and start Kṛṣṇa consciousness." But that never happened. So I had to... I was obliged to take the dress of my godbrothers and preach, instead of earning money. Yes. Some astrologer told me that I should have been a man like a Birla. And I got all those chances in the chemical line, to become... Now I am bigger than Birla. That's all right. But even in business field, there were signs that in money things... I got so many good chances. But everything... Dr. Karttika Candra Bose he appreciated my activities, "Very intelligent boy." He certified to my father*-in-law. This is the way of becoming rich man. Śyāmasundara: What happened? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Why didn't... Prabhupāda: Something happened, and everything was finished. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Just like something has happened wonderful. So that is also Kṛṣṇa's grace. Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing...? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing...? *Prabhupāda: No. Just like Dr. Bose's laboratory. So Dr. Bose's laboratory, I was manager. Then I took his agency, very good terms. I was earning money like anything. But the next manager, he became envious. He began to poison Dr. Bose, to cut off our relationship. So it happened. Then, when I was Dr. Bose's agent, I become so much famous that Bengal Chemical, the biggest chemical factory, he, they wanted to give me the agency. If I would have taken that agency, I would have been the richest man in the chemical world. You see. But they made some condition. So I did not accept it. I wanted in my condition. That is the very little... But I was puffed*-up, that "I am such a big... And this man is flattering. So I must get my condition fulfilled." So I did not accept it. The Smith Stanstreet gave me agency. Because in my work, in Dr. Bose's laboratory, I did it very creditably. So every other manufacturers, they became attracted to me, how to get me. The Smith Stanstreet Company, Bikepala(?) Company, Bose's, Bengal Chemical Company, they all wanted me. And I thought, "Oh, everyone wants me." So, so I refused. And later on there was a clique between Dr. Bose and me. So I lost everything. Then I started my own laboratory. Somehow or other, there was something, and... Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: In Bombay, you were having your own business then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Manufacturing? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is small manufacturing. So I got very, very good chance. But Kṛṣṇa did not allow it. He wanted me to come to this point. That is my practical experience. And now I'm seeing that it is Kṛṣṇa's so much favor. You see? Yasyāham, anugṛhnāmi... It is, it is, actually it is His grace. "What he'll do by becoming Birla, rich man like Birla?" That was Kṛṣṇa's plan. "Come here. Do this work." You see. My Guru Mahārāja ordered. Kṛṣṇa wanted. I was resisting Him. That's all. I was actually very expert businessman in chemical line. I did it very creditably in Bose's laboratory as manager and my own business. And everyone knows... Even in manufacturing also. *Śyāmasundara: Yeah, with that same experience now you've organized a world*-wide society... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And that's a big business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Difficult work. Brahmānanda: Just like before coming to India, in Japan, with simply five thousand dollars, you took fifty thousand dollars worth of merchandise. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And you brought it, had it sent... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And then everything... Śyāmasundara: Life members... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And then you devised the program for distributing them. Prabhupāda: Yes, practically India's, our, whatever we have got, it is starting with that five thousand dollars. Śyāmasundara: Five thousand dollars. Brahmānanda: But it's like you were investing, taking goods on credit, and... Prabhupāda: Yes. And this membership became successful. Brahmānanda: Then you devised the method for distribution. Prabhupāda: This membership. Śyāmasundara: Even the way you went to America in the beginning. You couldn't take money. Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: So you had some books... Prabhupāda: Some books. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Publish... *Prabhupāda: That intelligence gives me, Kṛṣṇa, "You do this." Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. Yes. And in my materialistic life, He was taking away my intelligence. Just like this Bose, Bengal Chemical agency, I should have accepted immediately. Such a big concern. Simply by sitting, I would have brought ten thousand rupees per month in those days. But there was no good intelligence. I thought, "No, I cannot accept your terms. You must accept..." Because I was at that time young man, puffed-up, no brain, no sober brain. They were so attracted with me. They would have given later on all facilities, but I did not accept. Similarly, Smith Stanstreet, they were also very good company. Śyāmasundara: Smith's...? Prabhupāda: Smith Stanstreet, an English company. They gave me an agency. So some of my enemy... He was my, he was my employer, but he gave information that I am also manufacturing now, drug and chemical works. So they informed them that "He's pushing his own goods, not your goods." They... He wanted that agency. Yes. In this way, because as soon as you come in the... Even in the spiritual field, my godbrothers are envious. You see? So as soon as you become successful, there will be many enemies. That is natural. That is the sign of success. In your business, if there are many enemies, competitor, that means you are successful. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has brought me to the right path. So I may not fall down. That's all. (laughter) When I was reading this verse, that yasyāham anugṛhnāmi hariṣye tad dhanaṁ śanaiḥ [SB 10.88.8], Kṛṣṇa said that "When I show somebody My special favor, I take away all his money," I became shuddered, "So Kṛṣṇa will take my all money? If He's..." And actually that happened. He took my all money, all family, all friends and everything. (laughs) And He asked me, "Go to America. You'll get many money, much money, many friends. You go ahead, Come here." Yes. That was His intention. And I was sticking to limited money, limited friends, limited society. This is special favor. Brahmānanda: So in Bombay you mentioned that Lilavati Munshi... There was one house... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: ...and you were trying to get that house... Prabhupāda: Yes, and she took away. Brahmānanda: ...and you were prevented. Prabhupāda: She took away. Because I was trying to organize a League of Devotees from that house, and Kṛṣṇa wanted, "What is this nonsense? You are stick here, in Jhansi? You come here, in open field." That was Kṛṣṇa's intent. But I thought that "Even Kṛṣṇa took away this?" This Lilavati Munshi... Śyāmasundara: Now her institution is... Prabhupāda: But my intention was to start this movement. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I was simply planning in different way. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's favor. I never deviated from this plan. Since I heard it from my Guru Mahārāja, I've simply planning how to do it successfully. But I thought at that time, that "I'll be able to do it if I get some money. Let me do some business for the time." That I was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa said, "Even if you are pauper, you try; you'll get everything." But I thought, "Without money, how this can be done?" That was difference of opinion with Kṛṣṇa, argument. And I was dreaming also, Guru Mahārāja, asking me, "Come on." So I was going. So I was, "Oh, I have to go? I have to take sannyāsa?" Śyāmasundara: You, you dreaming? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru Mahārāja said, "Come, come with me." I was going. But that... Many things happened before this. Yes. And at last it became, in America. Śyāmasundara: Did you tell everyone you were leaving, or you simply disappeared? Prabhupāda: No, I never said. Oh, why shall I? I lost all friends, money, everything. Guru dāsa: I met one gentleman from Allahabad... (Apparently someone comes in) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guru dāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get this light. [break] ...to this point, and you have joined. Do it nicely. It is the greatest movement for making the whole human civilization happy. Take it seriously. Don't... Tejas: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mister S. Domi(?) Singh, he's a... (end) Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi Prabhupāda: But suppose you are different . . . Guest (1): But, but . . . Prabhupāda: He is Christian, she is Muhammadan, she is Buddhist. Secular government means government should give protection to the Hindu, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to the Buddhist. But it is the government's duty to see that nobody is cheating. Prabhupāda: Jaisa apne koi business kar rahe ho. Business kijiye, government license de deta hai. Par ap cheat kijiyega to criminal hai. (Just like you are doing business. You do your business, the government issues a license for that, but if you cheat, then it is a criminal activity.) Lady: Ha, bilkul. (Yes, definitely . . .) Man: Mai bhi aj bol raha tha exactly this thing ki Hindusthan me abhi nash ho raha hai. (I was also saying exactly the same thing today. Things are worsening in India now . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha. (Yes.) Man: Isi bat par ki koi sacchai nahi rahi hai, koi dharma nahi raha hai, sab me adultery hai, sab me aisi chavi, jo . . . (The reason is that there is no honesty, no religiosity, there is adultery everywhere. Everywhere the same picture . . .) Prabhupāda: Nah. Ha. Dekhiye, government ka duty hai . . . (Yes. See this is the duty of the government . . .) to see that people may not become cheated. Man: Ethical orientation hone ke ye sab jagah . . . (Because of wrong ethical orientation, all these things are happening.) Prabhupāda: Abhi, abhi samajh lijiye hum log ka Hindu ka, ab aur . . . (Now, just see for Hindus, any more . . .) Let me speak in English, so that he can follow. Guest (1): They don't follow Indian . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Jaisa koi . . . (Just like . . .) Take for example a man is presenting himself as brahmin , but he's doing something else. That should be stopped. You are doing the business of a śūdra , why you are claiming as brahmin ? This is government duty. Guest (1): Now see this person . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . is very touchy about his being śūdra? Prabhupāda: No, why he should be? Guest (1): No, but he thinks that all of us look down upon him. So one has to be very careful. And I think that if you could say something about the real harijana. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I'll speak. That I'll speak. Now, if he is coming from the śūdra community . . . Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but he is now minister . . . Guest: He's a brahmin . Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady Guest: Not even brahmin . Prabhupāda: Not exactly, a brahmin yes. Lady Guest: Not a brahmin . Prabhupāda: But at least he's a kṣatriya . Guest (1): I mean, defense ministry. Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya , and that is the, that is the sanction of the śāstra . This is the statement by Nārada Muni. I shall quote the śāstra . Guest (1): Accha. (Okay.) *Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's . . . guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa , śauryaṁ tejaḥ , yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam , īśvara-bhāvaś ca (BG 18.43). These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta , if these qualities are found somewhere else . . . suppose a śūdra , a caṇḍāla , if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra . Guest (1): No. As Karṇa. Wasn't he born in a family of . . . *Prabhupāda: There are many instances, but this is the injunction of the śāstra . And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brahmin family or śūdra family—nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the M.D. examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brahmin ? Then I make my treatment with you." Nobody asks that. So this is the śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brahmanism , śūdra*-ism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture, spoiled. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: That should be the point. Now it is the duty of the secular government . . . now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa ," then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa . That is government's duty; that is secular state. Not that, "Let people go to hell. We don't care for them." That is not required. Guest (1): Yes, but if a brahmin is not behaving . . . Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brahmin , you must act as a brahmin . Lady Guest: Perform the duties of a brahmin . Guest (1): And actions and dharma and . . . Prabhupāda: That should be the platform. Guest (1): Because if a brahmin goes on drinking and abusing and . . . then he is not a brahmin . Prabhupāda: That is not brahmin . How can that be brahmin ? That is a śūdra , caṇḍāla . Then what is the difference between a . . . but they are claiming brahminism by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra . Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not allowed. Guest (1): It is by our actions and by thoughts . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Never says birth. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , quality and karma . Guest (1): One thing more I can do here for all the devotees . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . sanskrit teaching in our books. Guest (1): Language also. Prabhupāda: Language doesn't matter. Suppose if I address your wife "mātā" or if I call "mother". It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: One has to understand that a lady should be respectfully called as mother. You call it mātā or mother, it doesn't matter. Yes, some rascals inquire from them that, "Do you know Sanskrit?" Where is the condition that unless one knows Sanskrit he cannot be a devotee? Where is that condition? Guest (1): In the same way you see the early Christians inquired, "Do you know Latin?" And that's why the whole of England, you see, revolted, and they said we will do only in English. Because by Latin . . . Prabhupāda: So one bābājī . . . (aside) I think that you were in Surat? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī that, "Learn Sanskrit, then you'll understand Bhagavad*-gītā ." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away. You go away from this place." Guest (1): Not at all. Prabhupāda: So he supposed . . . I went to preach in the Western country. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇava ? It is a training. It is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit? Otherwise you cannot become . . ." Guest (1): It is good to learn as many languages as you can, because . . . but if you're not, that doesn't matter anything. Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from the school, college, that's all. A Sanskrit scholar is different—he learns grammar for twelve years. Guest (1): A waste of time. A waste of time, a waste of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see? Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . Romanian Ambassador, and we went to a place, University of Yas. The great poet Eminescu, he's the greatest Romanian poet, and he studies Sanskrit and his poems reflect Vedānta and *Gītā* —I read him very well, and he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars. Guest (1): Max Mueller, for example. Prabhupāda: Max Mueller was not very big scholar, but at the present moment there are many actually scholars. Guest (1): And Lesnee, Professor Lesnee was another scholar in Bengali and Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: But that does not mean he knows the Vedic literature. Guest (1): No, but they were . . . they could . . . Prabhupāda: Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahudhā śrutena . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.23). This is another verse. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Simply because you have got good brain substance, you'll be a devotee? It doesn't mean. Guest (1): No, no. Bhavana chahiye, bhavana . . . (Feelings must be there, feelings . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhāvana means it is, it is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa, then He gives the intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not a mechanical way. Guest (1): No. *Prabhupāda: It is not a mechanical way. Simply one has to be very serious and sincere, then you develop. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deva tathā gurau , tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśaḥ (ŚU 6.23). He becomes revealed. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). He is not revealed to everyone. It requires the qualification how to become a devotee, surrendered soul. Ab dekhiye na kal raat me ap . . . (indistinct) . . . mataji . . . (Just see, last night your . . . Mātājī . . .) your daughter, as soon as there was kīrtana , how she was dancing. Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: She is young girl. Guest (1): She is very devoted. Prabhupāda: She has the advanced devotion. Therefore . . . she is a young girl, she was not ashamed—so immediately she began to dance. Guest (1): She has always been like that. Prabhupāda: This is automatic. You see? So it is not a artificial thing. Guest (1): No, no, she feels it. That is her mission. And I don't want to interfere. Prabhupāda: No, I was very surprised how this nice girl . . . other girls, they are also dancing. So this dancing, I was explaining to him, that this dancing has no artificial. Guest (1): It is from heart. Prabhupāda: Ecstatic. Guest (1): She's ecstatic, yes. Otherwise nobody will get up at 3:30 in the morning. Prabhupāda: Lokavājya. Doesn't care that, "Here is my mother, here is my father, here is my . . ." No. Effortless. Guest (1): She doesn't care. She says today she is going to the park to make a temple. She has gone. I didn't prevent her . . . (indistinct) . . . she said she wants to be a devotee. Prabhupāda: So, she has got the tendency to become a perfect devotee. As a father and mother you should not hamper it. Guest (1): (laughs) I tell her that, too, you see. Prabhupāda: Because it is not easy to become a devotee. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: It is not easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). To become a devotee and surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām . And if she has developed, it is the duty . . . and śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). These things are there. So, if she has got the natural tendency you should give all possible help to her. This is the duty of the father. Guest (1): This is quite right. Prabhupāda: This is duty of the father. Guest (1): We give it at home, because we told her whatever she wanted to put things, mūrtis , other things, we have installed it. Prabhupāda: Yes, let her enjoy this devotional life. She has developed it. It is a fortune for you, because if one member of the family becomes a devotee of the Lord, he can deliver all the members. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Demon. (laughs) Prahlāda Mahārāja, when he was asked, "Take benediction, whatever you like," he said: "Sir, what benediction I shall take? I have seen the benediction of my father. He was so powerful, even the demigods trembled by his red eyes, and You finished it within a second. So what is the value of this benediction? Kindly engage me in Your service." Then Prahlāda Mahārāja, he did not ask anything for himself, but later on he asked Nṛsiṁha*-deva, "Sir, my Lord, one request I can make—my father was a great demon. He was against You, but still I pray that his liberation will be granted." Guest (1): Very nice of him. Very good of him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lady Guest: To save his father. *Prabhupāda: So Nṛsiṁha*-deva replied: "So don't be worried about your father. Not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to fourteen generation, because a devotee like you, who is born in this family, fourteen generations they are liberated." This is the process. Best service. If your daughter can give best service to your family by becoming a devotee, she gives service to you, to your husband, to your husband's father, your father—that is the śāstric injunction. Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee? Prabhupāda: Devotee means he does not know anything better than Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest (1): But suppose a man who is working in life with always that consciousness, is he . . . Prabhupāda: What is that consciousness? Guest (1): That he knows nothing but Kṛṣṇa, you see, and works in that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That his action will prove. Simply by . . . Guest: No, by action. Just you say the brahmin must do by actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): So a devotee is also by actions he can do it? Prabhupāda: By symptoms. Guest (1): Symptoms. Prabhupāda: Just like your daughter, she is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Even she does not like to live with family because she does not find very congenial atmosphere. Guest: No, we ask all our friends, devotees around. *Prabhupāda: A devotee, as Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tādera caraṇa*-sevi-bhakta-sane vās (Nāma-saṅkīrtana 7). Bhakta-sane vās . You must live amongst the devotees. Guest (1): Bhakto ke pas reh rahe the. (Living with devotees.) Prabhupāda: In our Society he has come from America, he has come from Canada, I am from India, but we have forgotten all our family relations. We have nothing to do. We are in a different atmosphere. They can die for me, I can die for them, but we have no family relationship. He's coming from America, I'm from India, he's from Canada, he's from . . . (indistinct) . . . but the central point is Kṛṣṇa. You see? That is devotion. *Tādera caraṇa*-sevi-bhakta-sane vās . Bhakta-sane vās . Therefore we have made this Society, Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, let us live together. We are also living together in a house—we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this—but everything in the Society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business, if you become a member of the association, stock sell exchange, you can do better business. Guest (1): (laughs) But not all the time. *Prabhupāda: No, no. I say . . . not all the time, because it is material. This is material. They cannot do all the time because this is temporary. You can work as a stock exchange broker for a few hours, then it will be havoc. But it is not like that. If you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty*-four hours, you'll never be worried. You'll never be tired. That is the difference between material and spiritual activities. Just like these boys, they are working day and night, voluntary. I do not pay them. They are all qualified. Suppose if one wanted to keep a servant like him, how much he will have to pay? They are doing for nothing. Rather, if I become angry, they become afraid. (laughs) Guest (1): But I also . . . no, no, I mean I . . . Prabhupāda: But you are also helping us. Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That I know, that I know. Therefore you have got such a nice daughter. Guest (1): You see, but I have only this thing, that I say it is my responsibility to look after the family also. Prabhupāda: It is the duty of everyone that this movement is so important that people are in the darkness of ignorance. They have become so rascal all over the world. It is not a particular country—all over the world. They do not know the value of life. They are living like cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating and dying. And we are giving the information what is the value of life. So every sane man take this movement very seriously. Guest (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All the leaders, they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die, and defend. What is this defense minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? But they have taken it very important. Guest (1): In some way even the cats and dogs are better, they defend better. Prabhupāda: Yes, without money, without soldiers, they have got nails. *Devotee: Cats and dogs have weapons built*-in. Guest (1): And no, moreover they don't . . . (indistinct) . . . they only want love and they are loyal, you see? Prabhupāda: So we are thinking, "Now we have got defense measure with atomic bomb, we are now advanced. But what is that advancement? That defensive method is there even cats and dogs. What you have done beyond this? But they have no brain. Everyone is spoiling life with these four principles of how to eat, how to sleep. Eating . . . Guest (1): Even they don't eat nicely. They eat rubbish. Prabhupāda: Actually they eat rubbish, but they think like that. It is a misguided civilization. Guest (1): Well, if I . . . (indistinct) . . . only day before yesterday at vegetarian hotel I got whole lunch. And whole day yesterday I was ill. So much . . . mirchi (. . . chili) they put, so much . . . masalas (. . . spices) they put. Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men leading other blind men. This is going on. Guest (1): I have suggested, you have got this, ah . . . what do you call that flower? It's very fragrant . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . panju ? Guest (1): No, no, what you call that . . . (indistinct) . . . that flower came? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): That white flower, fragrant flower. It is called parajit? Devotee: Pārijāta . Guest (1): Pārijāta . Lady Guest: Pārijāta . Guest (1): Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this, you can have. Prabhupāda: No no, pārijāta plant is not here. It is not possible. Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: That is heavenly. Guest (1): We have got here, pārijāta . Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): They call it pārijāta . Prabhupāda: They call. (laughs) Guest (1): A very beautiful, fragrant flower. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is harsingar. Shiuli flower. (night jasmine) Guest (1): Oh, it is nice. Prabhupāda: It is nice. There are many nice flowers. Guest (1): You want some flower pots, I have got a lot of plants now, from the seeds. Tell somebody to come, I can give for the garden here. I have got marigolds, I have got phloxes. I think they will be very nice for the pūjā . You see? You can have tomorrow if you can get that. (break) Prabhupāda: So high for these poor people. Guest (1): Such a vicious circle. Higher the prices, higher the wages, higher the wages, higher the prices, with less production. If there are five loaves and people have ten rupees, they'll buy five loaves. And if they have twenty rupees also they'll buy five loaves because there are no ten loaves. Prabhupāda: No, no. This higher price is due to capitalism. They are holding stock. Guest (1): But it is not sufficient for all the people, population. Prabhupāda: No, if you pay, you get sufficient. Guest (1): And that means the stock is so limited. Lady Guest: . . . (indistinct) (others speaking in background) Prabhupāda: Not limited. The stock is held . . . black. If you pay black, then you get sufficient. Guest (1): You see what happens . . . suppose you see in a house there are four liters of milk, you see, and each one is given 100 rupees, you see, then they will buy, each one, let's say one liter. And if they are given 200 rupees, the one who has got 200 rupees, they get one liter also for 200 rupees, you see? So what is happening is people who have got black money, they want the things for themselves. There is a price there. So the price will go up. Prabhupāda: How they get black money unless there is black market? Guest (1): No, because stock being limited. Suppose a medicine is wanted, a man is willing to give anything to get the medicine. They make the money out of that. Prabhupāda: So far I have got experience, the stock is available if you pay black. Guest (1): Dekho last year drought ho gaya. Drought ho gayi to wheat ki utpat kam ho gayi. To wheat ki price chadh gayi. Look at last year's drought over there. (Just see, there was a drought last year. Due to the drought, wheat production was less. So the price of wheat increased.) Prabhupāda: To kiska pas wheat nahi raha. Wo black or white prices sabhi ko isi ki or . . . (Just tell me who was not having wheat. Those black or white prices make everybody come to this . . .) Guest (1): Nahi, par kam ho gayi bahut. (No, it was much less.) Quantity. Prabhupāda: Nahi kam. . . . (indistinct) . . . wahi jitna, wahi khaye . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, not reduced . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever quantity they eat . . . (indistinct) . . .) Guest (1): Twenty million tons was less. Two million tons was less. Prabhupāda: No, there are so many millions of . . . (indistinct) Lady Guest: Adhe se zyada to chuha aur kira kha jata hai godown me. (More than half of the quantity gets eaten by rats and insects in the godown.) Guest (1): You see, greater productions is one of the keys to lower prices. Prabhupāda: Ye to pehle bhi . . . (Previously also . . .) this is the . . . this was the businessman's tricks. When there is new harvest they purchase and keep it and they keep the stock. Lady Guest: Store it. Prabhupāda: And when the price is high, they sell it. Now the same process suppose, if I want to hold stock, say 100 tons of rice, so I have no money, if I have got 25% price the bank will advance me 75%, so I hold the stock. Guest (1): Now it is an offense to hold the stock. Prabhupāda: But that is going on in black. Guest (1): Therefore that should be stopped. Prabhupāda: So how you can stop? Guest (1): By better consciousness, where truth is good. Prabhupāda: Ah! That requires Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Prabhupāda: Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Ultimately everything. Prabhupāda: Unless you become a devotee. Guest (1): Quite right. *Prabhupāda: Therefore śāstra says, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Guest (1): Quite right. *Prabhupāda: Those who are non*-devotee, they cannot have any good quality. Guest (1): Quite true. You see therefore unless you have more production and good quality people . . . Prabhupāda: Production . . . if we like, if we cooperate . . . just like United Nation. We can produce twenty times production that is required. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: So much land. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: In America, Australia, I have seen. Guest (1): Seeing is right, but so little water. You know what, to put plastic sheets to collect water. Prabhupāda: There cannot be any scarcity of food. That we are convinced. Guest (1): Yes, if we work hard. Prabhupāda: Not work hard, everyone should produce. But who is producing? Suppose in Delhi, such a big city. What is the population? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the population, Delhi? Guest (1): About, ah, four million. Prabhupāda: Four million. And what is the population of Bombay? Guest (1): About six and a half million, seven million. Prabhupāda: Seven million. And what is the Calcutta? Guest (1): About seven and a half million. Prabhupāda: And in this way if you take . . . and what is the population of India? Guest: Five, ah, nearly six hundred million now, it would be. Prabhupāda: Six hundred million. *Guest (1): Five*-fifty, five . . . six hundred million. Prabhupāda: So if you take all these city population it will come to three hundred million. They are doing nothing for producing. Guest (1): No, they are producing cotton textiles. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot eat . . . (indistinct) Lady Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can produce bolt and nut and this, but you cannot eat. So this is going on. Formerly, everyone was in village. Formerly. Everyone was interested to produce food. Everyone had got land. Even the brahmins they were not working. The śūdras would work, and they produce half and half, sale. Then government tax only 25%. Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: That would cover everything—shelters, income tax, this tax, that tax also. But if you have not produced anything, there is no tax. This was the system. Everyone was happy. Here, one side there is no production, there is scarcity; another side, government taxes 89, 95%. *Guest (1): Ninety*-seven percent. Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense? *Guest (1): Ninety*-three percent. Prabhupāda: And everyone is doing everything, whatever he likes. Guest (1): In black. No trade is going on. We are under the counter, they are over the counter. Prabhupāda: If I just now cut your throat, the police will come, arrest me, note down, and the judgment will be given when all your family members will no longer . . . Guest (1): The judgment won't be given, the police will take money and . . . Prabhupāda: That's all. Lady Guest: Everything will be over. Guest (1): It was never a murder taking place at all. Prabhupāda: This is the position. Everything is vitiated. Therefore most important thing is people should come to his consciousness, real consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Character. Character. Prabhupāda: Yes. Character. Guest (1): Yes, what we say . . . adharma bahut ho gaya. Adharma. (There is too much irreligion. Irreligion.) Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko manta hi nahi. Bhagavan kya chiz hai, ye janta hi nahi. Nirakar ho gaya Bhagavan. Unka akar hai. (No one believes in God. They don't even know what God is. God has become formless. He has a form . . .) Lady: Bhagavan ko bhi janta hai to paise ke liye. Paise milne Bhagavan, to adha de dega. (Even if they accept God, that's only for money. "Oh God, let me have money." Then he will give half of it.) Prabhupāda: Paise ke liye bhi Bhagavan ka pas jo jata hai, wo bhi accha hai. Jo ekdum manta nahi, ki Bhagavan hai hi nahi, nirakar, wo to maha atheist ho gaya. Jo dukh ke liye, ki paise ke liye hi . . . yehi to Bhagavan Gita me bola hai na arto artharthi. Arto, dukhi hai, wo agar punyavan hai to Bhagavan se prarthana karega, " Bhagavan, mai bahut dukhi hu. Humko thodi kripa . . . (indistinct)." Ye dosh nahi hai. Bhagavan ka pas gaya na, Bhagavan ko mana na, itna hi unka guna hai. Aur ye atheist hai, " Arre, ye Bhagavan vagavan kyu karte ho?" Humara Pandit Nehruji jaisa tha," Tumko rupaya chahiye to mandir jake kyu prarthana karte ho? Kaam karo, paise tumko milega." Ye bhi thik hai. Par ye log udhar hi reh jata hai, jo Bhagavan humko paise do, kaam karne ko kuch nahi. Kaam bhi karo aur Bhagavan se prarthana karo. Ye hona chahiye. (Even if someone goes to God for money, that is good. But those who don't believe in God, there is no God, formless, then he is an abominable atheist. One who goes to God for mitigating his misery or for money . . . this is what God says in Gita ārto arthārthī . Ārta , one who is in misery . . . if he is pious then he will definitely pray to God, "Oh God. I am suffering badly, kindly show some mercy upon me." This is not bad. After all, he is approaching God, he has accepted God, this is his greatest merit. And these atheists say: "Why are you calling out to God?" Like our Pandit Nehru said: "If you need money then why are you going to the temple to pray? Just do your job and you will get money." This is also okay. But these people remain there only, "Oh God give us money, we don't want to work at all." You do your job and at the same time pray to God—this should be the process.) Man: Aur prarthana karo to paise acche kaam me lagaye . . . (And if you pray then utilize the money in good activities) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi Prabhupāda: But suppose you are different . . . Guest (1): But, but . . . Prabhupāda: He is Christian, she is Muhammadan, she is Buddhist. Secular government means government should give protection to the Hindu, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to the Buddhist. But it is the government's duty to see that nobody is cheating. Prabhupāda: Jaisa apne koi business kar rahe ho. Business kijiye, government license de deta hai. Par ap cheat kijiyega to criminal hai. (Just like you are doing business. You do your business, the government issues a license for that, but if you cheat, then it is a criminal activity.) Lady: Ha, bilkul. (Yes, definitely . . .) Man: Mai bhi aj bol raha tha exactly this thing ki Hindusthan me abhi nash ho raha hai. (I was also saying exactly the same thing today. Things are worsening in India now . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha. (Yes.) Man: Isi bat par ki koi sacchai nahi rahi hai, koi dharma nahi raha hai, sab me adultery hai, sab me aisi chavi, jo . . . (The reason is that there is no honesty, no religiosity, there is adultery everywhere. Everywhere the same picture . . .) Prabhupāda: Nah. Ha. Dekhiye, government ka duty hai . . . (Yes. See this is the duty of the government . . .) to see that people may not become cheated. Man: Ethical orientation hone ke ye sab jagah . . . (Because of wrong ethical orientation, all these things are happening.) Prabhupāda: Abhi, abhi samajh lijiye hum log ka Hindu ka, ab aur . . . (Now, just see for Hindus, any more . . .) Let me speak in English, so that he can follow. Guest (1): They don't follow Indian . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Jaisa koi . . . (Just like . . .) Take for example a man is presenting himself as brahmin , but he's doing something else. That should be stopped. You are doing the business of a śūdra , why you are claiming as brahmin ? This is government duty. Guest (1): Now see this person . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . is very touchy about his being śūdra? Prabhupāda: No, why he should be? Guest (1): No, but he thinks that all of us look down upon him. So one has to be very careful. And I think that if you could say something about the real harijana. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I'll speak. That I'll speak. Now, if he is coming from the śūdra community . . . Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but he is now minister . . . Guest: He's a brahmin . Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady Guest: Not even brahmin . Prabhupāda: Not exactly, a brahmin yes. Lady Guest: Not a brahmin . Prabhupāda: But at least he's a kṣatriya . Guest (1): I mean, defense ministry. Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya , and that is the, that is the sanction of the śāstra . This is the statement by Nārada Muni. I shall quote the śāstra . Guest (1): Accha. (Okay.) *Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's . . . guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa , śauryaṁ tejaḥ , yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam , īśvara-bhāvaś ca (BG 18.43). These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta , if these qualities are found somewhere else . . . suppose a śūdra , a caṇḍāla , if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra . Guest (1): No. As Karṇa. Wasn't he born in a family of . . . *Prabhupāda: There are many instances, but this is the injunction of the śāstra . And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brahmin family or śūdra family—nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the M.D. examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brahmin ? Then I make my treatment with you." Nobody asks that. So this is the śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brahmanism , śūdra*-ism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture, spoiled. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: That should be the point. Now it is the duty of the secular government . . . now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa ," then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa . That is government's duty; that is secular state. Not that, "Let people go to hell. We don't care for them." That is not required. Guest (1): Yes, but if a brahmin is not behaving . . . Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brahmin , you must act as a brahmin . Lady Guest: Perform the duties of a brahmin . Guest (1): And actions and dharma and . . . Prabhupāda: That should be the platform. Guest (1): Because if a brahmin goes on drinking and abusing and . . . then he is not a brahmin . Prabhupāda: That is not brahmin . How can that be brahmin ? That is a śūdra , caṇḍāla . Then what is the difference between a . . . but they are claiming brahminism by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra . Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not allowed. Guest (1): It is by our actions and by thoughts . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Never says birth. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , quality and karma . Guest (1): One thing more I can do here for all the devotees . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . sanskrit teaching in our books. Guest (1): Language also. Prabhupāda: Language doesn't matter. Suppose if I address your wife "mātā" or if I call "mother". It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: One has to understand that a lady should be respectfully called as mother. You call it mātā or mother, it doesn't matter. Yes, some rascals inquire from them that, "Do you know Sanskrit?" Where is the condition that unless one knows Sanskrit he cannot be a devotee? Where is that condition? Guest (1): In the same way you see the early Christians inquired, "Do you know Latin?" And that's why the whole of England, you see, revolted, and they said we will do only in English. Because by Latin . . . Prabhupāda: So one bābājī . . . (aside) I think that you were in Surat? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī that, "Learn Sanskrit, then you'll understand Bhagavad*-gītā ." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away. You go away from this place." Guest (1): Not at all. Prabhupāda: So he supposed . . . I went to preach in the Western country. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇava ? It is a training. It is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit? Otherwise you cannot become . . ." Guest (1): It is good to learn as many languages as you can, because . . . but if you're not, that doesn't matter anything. Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from the school, college, that's all. A Sanskrit scholar is different—he learns grammar for twelve years. Guest (1): A waste of time. A waste of time, a waste of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see? Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . Romanian Ambassador, and we went to a place, University of Yas. The great poet Eminescu, he's the greatest Romanian poet, and he studies Sanskrit and his poems reflect Vedānta and *Gītā* —I read him very well, and he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars. Guest (1): Max Mueller, for example. Prabhupāda: Max Mueller was not very big scholar, but at the present moment there are many actually scholars. Guest (1): And Lesnee, Professor Lesnee was another scholar in Bengali and Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: But that does not mean he knows the Vedic literature. Guest (1): No, but they were . . . they could . . . Prabhupāda: Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahudhā śrutena . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.23). This is another verse. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Simply because you have got good brain substance, you'll be a devotee? It doesn't mean. Guest (1): No, no. Bhavana chahiye, bhavana . . . (Feelings must be there, feelings . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhāvana means it is, it is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa, then He gives the intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not a mechanical way. Guest (1): No. *Prabhupāda: It is not a mechanical way. Simply one has to be very serious and sincere, then you develop. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deva tathā gurau , tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśaḥ (ŚU 6.23). He becomes revealed. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). He is not revealed to everyone. It requires the qualification how to become a devotee, surrendered soul. Ab dekhiye na kal raat me ap . . . (indistinct) . . . mataji . . . (Just see, last night your . . . Mātājī . . .) your daughter, as soon as there was kīrtana , how she was dancing. Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: She is young girl. Guest (1): She is very devoted. Prabhupāda: She has the advanced devotion. Therefore . . . she is a young girl, she was not ashamed—so immediately she began to dance. Guest (1): She has always been like that. Prabhupāda: This is automatic. You see? So it is not a artificial thing. Guest (1): No, no, she feels it. That is her mission. And I don't want to interfere. Prabhupāda: No, I was very surprised how this nice girl . . . other girls, they are also dancing. So this dancing, I was explaining to him, that this dancing has no artificial. Guest (1): It is from heart. Prabhupāda: Ecstatic. Guest (1): She's ecstatic, yes. Otherwise nobody will get up at 3:30 in the morning. Prabhupāda: Lokavājya. Doesn't care that, "Here is my mother, here is my father, here is my . . ." No. Effortless. Guest (1): She doesn't care. She says today she is going to the park to make a temple. She has gone. I didn't prevent her . . . (indistinct) . . . she said she wants to be a devotee. Prabhupāda: So, she has got the tendency to become a perfect devotee. As a father and mother you should not hamper it. Guest (1): (laughs) I tell her that, too, you see. Prabhupāda: Because it is not easy to become a devotee. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: It is not easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). To become a devotee and surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām . And if she has developed, it is the duty . . . and śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). These things are there. So, if she has got the natural tendency you should give all possible help to her. This is the duty of the father. Guest (1): This is quite right. Prabhupāda: This is duty of the father. Guest (1): We give it at home, because we told her whatever she wanted to put things, mūrtis , other things, we have installed it. Prabhupāda: Yes, let her enjoy this devotional life. She has developed it. It is a fortune for you, because if one member of the family becomes a devotee of the Lord, he can deliver all the members. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Demon. (laughs) Prahlāda Mahārāja, when he was asked, "Take benediction, whatever you like," he said: "Sir, what benediction I shall take? I have seen the benediction of my father. He was so powerful, even the demigods trembled by his red eyes, and You finished it within a second. So what is the value of this benediction? Kindly engage me in Your service." Then Prahlāda Mahārāja, he did not ask anything for himself, but later on he asked Nṛsiṁha*-deva, "Sir, my Lord, one request I can make—my father was a great demon. He was against You, but still I pray that his liberation will be granted." Guest (1): Very nice of him. Very good of him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lady Guest: To save his father. *Prabhupāda: So Nṛsiṁha*-deva replied: "So don't be worried about your father. Not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to fourteen generation, because a devotee like you, who is born in this family, fourteen generations they are liberated." This is the process. Best service. If your daughter can give best service to your family by becoming a devotee, she gives service to you, to your husband, to your husband's father, your father—that is the śāstric injunction. Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee? Prabhupāda: Devotee means he does not know anything better than Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest (1): But suppose a man who is working in life with always that consciousness, is he . . . Prabhupāda: What is that consciousness? Guest (1): That he knows nothing but Kṛṣṇa, you see, and works in that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That his action will prove. Simply by . . . Guest: No, by action. Just you say the brahmin must do by actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): So a devotee is also by actions he can do it? Prabhupāda: By symptoms. Guest (1): Symptoms. Prabhupāda: Just like your daughter, she is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Even she does not like to live with family because she does not find very congenial atmosphere. Guest: No, we ask all our friends, devotees around. *Prabhupāda: A devotee, as Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tādera caraṇa*-sevi-bhakta-sane vās (Nāma-saṅkīrtana 7). Bhakta-sane vās . You must live amongst the devotees. Guest (1): Bhakto ke pas reh rahe the. (Living with devotees.) Prabhupāda: In our Society he has come from America, he has come from Canada, I am from India, but we have forgotten all our family relations. We have nothing to do. We are in a different atmosphere. They can die for me, I can die for them, but we have no family relationship. He's coming from America, I'm from India, he's from Canada, he's from . . . (indistinct) . . . but the central point is Kṛṣṇa. You see? That is devotion. *Tādera caraṇa*-sevi-bhakta-sane vās . Bhakta-sane vās . Therefore we have made this Society, Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, let us live together. We are also living together in a house—we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this—but everything in the Society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business, if you become a member of the association, stock sell exchange, you can do better business. Guest (1): (laughs) But not all the time. *Prabhupāda: No, no. I say . . . not all the time, because it is material. This is material. They cannot do all the time because this is temporary. You can work as a stock exchange broker for a few hours, then it will be havoc. But it is not like that. If you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty*-four hours, you'll never be worried. You'll never be tired. That is the difference between material and spiritual activities. Just like these boys, they are working day and night, voluntary. I do not pay them. They are all qualified. Suppose if one wanted to keep a servant like him, how much he will have to pay? They are doing for nothing. Rather, if I become angry, they become afraid. (laughs) Guest (1): But I also . . . no, no, I mean I . . . Prabhupāda: But you are also helping us. Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That I know, that I know. Therefore you have got such a nice daughter. Guest (1): You see, but I have only this thing, that I say it is my responsibility to look after the family also. Prabhupāda: It is the duty of everyone that this movement is so important that people are in the darkness of ignorance. They have become so rascal all over the world. It is not a particular country—all over the world. They do not know the value of life. They are living like cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating and dying. And we are giving the information what is the value of life. So every sane man take this movement very seriously. Guest (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All the leaders, they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die, and defend. What is this defense minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? But they have taken it very important. Guest (1): In some way even the cats and dogs are better, they defend better. Prabhupāda: Yes, without money, without soldiers, they have got nails. *Devotee: Cats and dogs have weapons built*-in. Guest (1): And no, moreover they don't . . . (indistinct) . . . they only want love and they are loyal, you see? Prabhupāda: So we are thinking, "Now we have got defense measure with atomic bomb, we are now advanced. But what is that advancement? That defensive method is there even cats and dogs. What you have done beyond this? But they have no brain. Everyone is spoiling life with these four principles of how to eat, how to sleep. Eating . . . Guest (1): Even they don't eat nicely. They eat rubbish. Prabhupāda: Actually they eat rubbish, but they think like that. It is a misguided civilization. Guest (1): Well, if I . . . (indistinct) . . . only day before yesterday at vegetarian hotel I got whole lunch. And whole day yesterday I was ill. So much . . . mirchi (. . . chili) they put, so much . . . masalas (. . . spices) they put. Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men leading other blind men. This is going on. Guest (1): I have suggested, you have got this, ah . . . what do you call that flower? It's very fragrant . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . panju ? Guest (1): No, no, what you call that . . . (indistinct) . . . that flower came? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): That white flower, fragrant flower. It is called parajit? Devotee: Pārijāta . Guest (1): Pārijāta . Lady Guest: Pārijāta . Guest (1): Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this, you can have. Prabhupāda: No no, pārijāta plant is not here. It is not possible. Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: That is heavenly. Guest (1): We have got here, pārijāta . Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): They call it pārijāta . Prabhupāda: They call. (laughs) Guest (1): A very beautiful, fragrant flower. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is harsingar. Shiuli flower. (night jasmine) Guest (1): Oh, it is nice. Prabhupāda: It is nice. There are many nice flowers. Guest (1): You want some flower pots, I have got a lot of plants now, from the seeds. Tell somebody to come, I can give for the garden here. I have got marigolds, I have got phloxes. I think they will be very nice for the pūjā . You see? You can have tomorrow if you can get that. (break) Prabhupāda: So high for these poor people. Guest (1): Such a vicious circle. Higher the prices, higher the wages, higher the wages, higher the prices, with less production. If there are five loaves and people have ten rupees, they'll buy five loaves. And if they have twenty rupees also they'll buy five loaves because there are no ten loaves. Prabhupāda: No, no. This higher price is due to capitalism. They are holding stock. Guest (1): But it is not sufficient for all the people, population. Prabhupāda: No, if you pay, you get sufficient. Guest (1): And that means the stock is so limited. Lady Guest: . . . (indistinct) (others speaking in background) Prabhupāda: Not limited. The stock is held . . . black. If you pay black, then you get sufficient. Guest (1): You see what happens . . . suppose you see in a house there are four liters of milk, you see, and each one is given 100 rupees, you see, then they will buy, each one, let's say one liter. And if they are given 200 rupees, the one who has got 200 rupees, they get one liter also for 200 rupees, you see? So what is happening is people who have got black money, they want the things for themselves. There is a price there. So the price will go up. Prabhupāda: How they get black money unless there is black market? Guest (1): No, because stock being limited. Suppose a medicine is wanted, a man is willing to give anything to get the medicine. They make the money out of that. Prabhupāda: So far I have got experience, the stock is available if you pay black. Guest (1): Dekho last year drought ho gaya. Drought ho gayi to wheat ki utpat kam ho gayi. To wheat ki price chadh gayi. Look at last year's drought over there. (Just see, there was a drought last year. Due to the drought, wheat production was less. So the price of wheat increased.) Prabhupāda: To kiska pas wheat nahi raha. Wo black or white prices sabhi ko isi ki or . . . (Just tell me who was not having wheat. Those black or white prices make everybody come to this . . .) Guest (1): Nahi, par kam ho gayi bahut. (No, it was much less.) Quantity. Prabhupāda: Nahi kam. . . . (indistinct) . . . wahi jitna, wahi khaye . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, not reduced . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever quantity they eat . . . (indistinct) . . .) Guest (1): Twenty million tons was less. Two million tons was less. Prabhupāda: No, there are so many millions of . . . (indistinct) Lady Guest: Adhe se zyada to chuha aur kira kha jata hai godown me. (More than half of the quantity gets eaten by rats and insects in the godown.) Guest (1): You see, greater productions is one of the keys to lower prices. Prabhupāda: Ye to pehle bhi . . . (Previously also . . .) this is the . . . this was the businessman's tricks. When there is new harvest they purchase and keep it and they keep the stock. Lady Guest: Store it. Prabhupāda: And when the price is high, they sell it. Now the same process suppose, if I want to hold stock, say 100 tons of rice, so I have no money, if I have got 25% price the bank will advance me 75%, so I hold the stock. Guest (1): Now it is an offense to hold the stock. Prabhupāda: But that is going on in black. Guest (1): Therefore that should be stopped. Prabhupāda: So how you can stop? Guest (1): By better consciousness, where truth is good. Prabhupāda: Ah! That requires Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Prabhupāda: Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Ultimately everything. Prabhupāda: Unless you become a devotee. Guest (1): Quite right. *Prabhupāda: Therefore śāstra says, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Guest (1): Quite right. *Prabhupāda: Those who are non*-devotee, they cannot have any good quality. Guest (1): Quite true. You see therefore unless you have more production and good quality people . . . Prabhupāda: Production . . . if we like, if we cooperate . . . just like United Nation. We can produce twenty times production that is required. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: So much land. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: In America, Australia, I have seen. Guest (1): Seeing is right, but so little water. You know what, to put plastic sheets to collect water. Prabhupāda: There cannot be any scarcity of food. That we are convinced. Guest (1): Yes, if we work hard. Prabhupāda: Not work hard, everyone should produce. But who is producing? Suppose in Delhi, such a big city. What is the population? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the population, Delhi? Guest (1): About, ah, four million. Prabhupāda: Four million. And what is the population of Bombay? Guest (1): About six and a half million, seven million. Prabhupāda: Seven million. And what is the Calcutta? Guest (1): About seven and a half million. Prabhupāda: And in this way if you take . . . and what is the population of India? Guest: Five, ah, nearly six hundred million now, it would be. Prabhupāda: Six hundred million. *Guest (1): Five*-fifty, five . . . six hundred million. Prabhupāda: So if you take all these city population it will come to three hundred million. They are doing nothing for producing. Guest (1): No, they are producing cotton textiles. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot eat . . . (indistinct) Lady Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can produce bolt and nut and this, but you cannot eat. So this is going on. Formerly, everyone was in village. Formerly. Everyone was interested to produce food. Everyone had got land. Even the brahmins they were not working. The śūdras would work, and they produce half and half, sale. Then government tax only 25%. Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: That would cover everything—shelters, income tax, this tax, that tax also. But if you have not produced anything, there is no tax. This was the system. Everyone was happy. Here, one side there is no production, there is scarcity; another side, government taxes 89, 95%. *Guest (1): Ninety*-seven percent. Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense? *Guest (1): Ninety*-three percent. Prabhupāda: And everyone is doing everything, whatever he likes. Guest (1): In black. No trade is going on. We are under the counter, they are over the counter. Prabhupāda: If I just now cut your throat, the police will come, arrest me, note down, and the judgment will be given when all your family members will no longer . . . Guest (1): The judgment won't be given, the police will take money and . . . Prabhupāda: That's all. Lady Guest: Everything will be over. Guest (1): It was never a murder taking place at all. Prabhupāda: This is the position. Everything is vitiated. Therefore most important thing is people should come to his consciousness, real consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Character. Character. Prabhupāda: Yes. Character. Guest (1): Yes, what we say . . . adharma bahut ho gaya. Adharma. (There is too much irreligion. Irreligion.) Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko manta hi nahi. Bhagavan kya chiz hai, ye janta hi nahi. Nirakar ho gaya Bhagavan. Unka akar hai. (No one believes in God. They don't even know what God is. God has become formless. He has a form . . .) Lady: Bhagavan ko bhi janta hai to paise ke liye. Paise milne Bhagavan, to adha de dega. (Even if they accept God, that's only for money. "Oh God, let me have money." Then he will give half of it.) Prabhupāda: Paise ke liye bhi Bhagavan ka pas jo jata hai, wo bhi accha hai. Jo ekdum manta nahi, ki Bhagavan hai hi nahi, nirakar, wo to maha atheist ho gaya. Jo dukh ke liye, ki paise ke liye hi . . . yehi to Bhagavan Gita me bola hai na arto artharthi. Arto, dukhi hai, wo agar punyavan hai to Bhagavan se prarthana karega, " Bhagavan, mai bahut dukhi hu. Humko thodi kripa . . . (indistinct)." Ye dosh nahi hai. Bhagavan ka pas gaya na, Bhagavan ko mana na, itna hi unka guna hai. Aur ye atheist hai, " Arre, ye Bhagavan vagavan kyu karte ho?" Humara Pandit Nehruji jaisa tha," Tumko rupaya chahiye to mandir jake kyu prarthana karte ho? Kaam karo, paise tumko milega." Ye bhi thik hai. Par ye log udhar hi reh jata hai, jo Bhagavan humko paise do, kaam karne ko kuch nahi. Kaam bhi karo aur Bhagavan se prarthana karo. Ye hona chahiye. (Even if someone goes to God for money, that is good. But those who don't believe in God, there is no God, formless, then he is an abominable atheist. One who goes to God for mitigating his misery or for money . . . this is what God says in Gita ārto arthārthī . Ārta , one who is in misery . . . if he is pious then he will definitely pray to God, "Oh God. I am suffering badly, kindly show some mercy upon me." This is not bad. After all, he is approaching God, he has accepted God, this is his greatest merit. And these atheists say: "Why are you calling out to God?" Like our Pandit Nehru said: "If you need money then why are you going to the temple to pray? Just do your job and you will get money." This is also okay. But these people remain there only, "Oh God give us money, we don't want to work at all." You do your job and at the same time pray to God—this should be the process.) Man: Aur prarthana karo to paise acche kaam me lagaye . . . (And if you pray then utilize the money in good activities) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation A -- November 5, 1973, Delhi *Prabhupāda: Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca. She's both. (laughter) Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, "Never trust woman and politician," and she's both. (laughs) Gurudāsa: But she's actually better at telling a lie than the other people. She's very clever. Prabhupāda: They will have to come to this point gradually. They're disappointed. Life is not very pleasing. Politics life is not . . . even Gandhi, such an exalted man, on the day he was killed, he was the same. (break) . . . he said. He actually prayed to God, "My death may come," because he was so much disappointed. Thousands of complaints, thousands of demands, thousands of varieties. The politician . . . (indistinct) . . . and everyone has to be satisfied. And if he's not satisfied, he'll plan something else. Nowadays political position is very . . . the same example: uṣṭra, uṣṭra , a camel. Camel is eating his own blood, and still he is thinking, "I am very happy." So this . . . everyone in this material world, especially the politician, they're eating their own blood, but for the position they're thinking, "Oh, I am so happy." Gurudāsa: Yesterday she rode to work in a horse cart. Prabhupāda: Ah? Gurudāsa: Yesterday, the prime minister rode to work in a horse cart to demonstrate that she would not utilize petrol due to the high price of gas. Prabhupāda: So where to get the horses? Gurudāsa: (laughs) Someone said that, that "How you will feed the horses, 'cause you can't get wheat?" Prabhupāda: All their plans have failed. You see? This is the . . . Nanda was one of the planning commission. This rascal is now rejected. Now he is observed by the C.I.D man. When government has ordered the . . . (indistinct) . . . so one friend in Benares, he was anarchist—at least his brother was—and his brother was hanged. So naturally his family was observed by police department. I was guest in his house. At Benares, when walking I saw that man is coming, "Oh, what is this man who is coming here?" "Oh, he's my bodyguard," he said. And "What is this bodyguard?" He said the whole story, foolish . . . (indistinct) . . . so when I went to the station, the policeman. And the policeman, when I got in train, police were advised another policeman. I thought, "He is coming with me also?" (laughs) Then when I came to Allahabad station I did not see anybody else. They didn't . . . (break) What other, what he has written? Gurudāsa: Memo to all presidents . . . (break) Guest: Like I was saying, though, he never . . . I wouldn't . . . I couldn't put a name on the philosophy, but he would give his teachings, you know? It wasn't so strict, you know. It wasn't as organized a program as here. He would say . . . he would more often give . . . Prabhupāda: What . . . was he worshiping any deity? Guest: Hanumān. He said that, you know, you should, erm, you should serve the humanity. Prabhupāda: Uh? Guest: Serve humanity, feed . . . Prabhupāda: That is the general proposition everywhere. *Guest: Right. It was nothing special. I couldn't . . . I wouldn't know what to tell you. He was not a philosophic . . . he was not philosophically*-oriented, you know. He was more, he was . . . well, as we know now, it was just towards the end of his life, you know. He was . . . Prabhupāda: Approved line? Guest: He never talked about his guru , about his line of succession. He never told us who his guru was. Or he wouldn't talk about his early life either. The reason I stayed with him so long was because he gave me more love, you know, than I'd ever experienced before. He was just nicer to me than anyone else had ever been. He was . . . Prabhupāda: No, he was a good man, there is no doubt. Guest: Yes, he was a very good man. I wouldn't really know what to say, you know—he's a saint or a guru or . . . Prabhupāda: Now what is the situation of the āśrama ? Guest: Well, I found out the āśrama is run by . . . there's trustees. There's one man in Lucknow who I've never met, who's the head of the trustees. Then there are businessmen . . . Prabhupāda: What is the activities? Guest: The activity is minimal, you know. They, erm . . . now that he's gone away, the presence of the Westerners even is discouraged in the temple. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: We go in for darśana of the samādhi , and his takht is there on which he used to sit. But the people in the āśrama now, you know, they want you to leave as soon as possible. They don't feed us anymore there. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guest: We don't get food or chai anymore now that Bala's gone. Prabhupāda: They want you to go away? Guest: They don't allow any Westerners now to stay in that āśrama . And there's so many rooms, thirty or forty beautiful rooms, like some of the nicest in Vṛndāvana. Gurudāsa: That Goenka dharmaśālā ? Guest: That we can stay in, but I mean in the āśrama itself, which is in the back of the Hanumān temple. I was . . . in fact I was the only one allowed to even stay in the Goenka dharmaśālā , because I happened to know Mr. Goenka, you know. That was just a chance thing, though, you know. Prabhupāda: Where is Goenka? Gurudāsa: You know Mr. Goenka from Pak . . . (break) *Guest: It's got the original Sanskrit, word-for-word meaning, literal translation, but the purport isn't anything like . . . no*-one else's . . . (indistinct background voices) Thank you. Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: What is that letter? Gurudāsa: A letter to Mukunda inviting him to stay in London temple. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are going to London? Guest: Tonight. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) (Prabhupāda is being massaged) Gurudāsa: . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara? He is not chanting? Gurudāsa: He is chanting nothing. (laughing) Devotee (2): He's watching . . . (laughing) Prabhupāda: Something I can give him to eat? . . . (indistinct) . . . so that boy, I used to say, "Can I put something in your belly?" (laughs) Immediately . . . (indistinct) Śrutakīrti: In Los Angeles it was nice—we were giving the cookies out after lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation A -- November 5, 1973, Delhi *Prabhupāda: Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca. She's both. (laughter) Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, "Never trust woman and politician," and she's both. (laughs) Gurudāsa: But she's actually better at telling a lie than the other people. She's very clever. Prabhupāda: They will have to come to this point gradually. They're disappointed. Life is not very pleasing. Politics life is not . . . even Gandhi, such an exalted man, on the day he was killed, he was the same. (break) . . . he said. He actually prayed to God, "My death may come," because he was so much disappointed. Thousands of complaints, thousands of demands, thousands of varieties. The politician . . . (indistinct) . . . and everyone has to be satisfied. And if he's not satisfied, he'll plan something else. Nowadays political position is very . . . the same example: uṣṭra, uṣṭra , a camel. Camel is eating his own blood, and still he is thinking, "I am very happy." So this . . . everyone in this material world, especially the politician, they're eating their own blood, but for the position they're thinking, "Oh, I am so happy." Gurudāsa: Yesterday she rode to work in a horse cart. Prabhupāda: Ah? Gurudāsa: Yesterday, the prime minister rode to work in a horse cart to demonstrate that she would not utilize petrol due to the high price of gas. Prabhupāda: So where to get the horses? Gurudāsa: (laughs) Someone said that, that "How you will feed the horses, 'cause you can't get wheat?" Prabhupāda: All their plans have failed. You see? This is the . . . Nanda was one of the planning commission. This rascal is now rejected. Now he is observed by the C.I.D man. When government has ordered the . . . (indistinct) . . . so one friend in Benares, he was anarchist—at least his brother was—and his brother was hanged. So naturally his family was observed by police department. I was guest in his house. At Benares, when walking I saw that man is coming, "Oh, what is this man who is coming here?" "Oh, he's my bodyguard," he said. And "What is this bodyguard?" He said the whole story, foolish . . . (indistinct) . . . so when I went to the station, the policeman. And the policeman, when I got in train, police were advised another policeman. I thought, "He is coming with me also?" (laughs) Then when I came to Allahabad station I did not see anybody else. They didn't . . . (break) What other, what he has written? Gurudāsa: Memo to all presidents . . . (break) Guest: Like I was saying, though, he never . . . I wouldn't . . . I couldn't put a name on the philosophy, but he would give his teachings, you know? It wasn't so strict, you know. It wasn't as organized a program as here. He would say . . . he would more often give . . . Prabhupāda: What . . . was he worshiping any deity? Guest: Hanumān. He said that, you know, you should, erm, you should serve the humanity. Prabhupāda: Uh? Guest: Serve humanity, feed . . . Prabhupāda: That is the general proposition everywhere. *Guest: Right. It was nothing special. I couldn't . . . I wouldn't know what to tell you. He was not a philosophic . . . he was not philosophically*-oriented, you know. He was more, he was . . . well, as we know now, it was just towards the end of his life, you know. He was . . . Prabhupāda: Approved line? Guest: He never talked about his guru , about his line of succession. He never told us who his guru was. Or he wouldn't talk about his early life either. The reason I stayed with him so long was because he gave me more love, you know, than I'd ever experienced before. He was just nicer to me than anyone else had ever been. He was . . . Prabhupāda: No, he was a good man, there is no doubt. Guest: Yes, he was a very good man. I wouldn't really know what to say, you know—he's a saint or a guru or . . . Prabhupāda: Now what is the situation of the āśrama ? Guest: Well, I found out the āśrama is run by . . . there's trustees. There's one man in Lucknow who I've never met, who's the head of the trustees. Then there are businessmen . . . Prabhupāda: What is the activities? Guest: The activity is minimal, you know. They, erm . . . now that he's gone away, the presence of the Westerners even is discouraged in the temple. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: We go in for darśana of the samādhi , and his takht is there on which he used to sit. But the people in the āśrama now, you know, they want you to leave as soon as possible. They don't feed us anymore there. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guest: We don't get food or chai anymore now that Bala's gone. Prabhupāda: They want you to go away? Guest: They don't allow any Westerners now to stay in that āśrama . And there's so many rooms, thirty or forty beautiful rooms, like some of the nicest in Vṛndāvana. Gurudāsa: That Goenka dharmaśālā ? Guest: That we can stay in, but I mean in the āśrama itself, which is in the back of the Hanumān temple. I was . . . in fact I was the only one allowed to even stay in the Goenka dharmaśālā , because I happened to know Mr. Goenka, you know. That was just a chance thing, though, you know. Prabhupāda: Where is Goenka? Gurudāsa: You know Mr. Goenka from Pak . . . (break) *Guest: It's got the original Sanskrit, word-for-word meaning, literal translation, but the purport isn't anything like . . . no*-one else's . . . (indistinct background voices) Thank you. Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: What is that letter? Gurudāsa: A letter to Mukunda inviting him to stay in London temple. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are going to London? Guest: Tonight. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) (Prabhupāda is being massaged) Gurudāsa: . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara? He is not chanting? Gurudāsa: He is chanting nothing. (laughing) Devotee (2): He's watching . . . (laughing) Prabhupāda: Something I can give him to eat? . . . (indistinct) . . . so that boy, I used to say, "Can I put something in your belly?" (laughs) Immediately . . . (indistinct) Śrutakīrti: In Los Angeles it was nice—we were giving the cookies out after lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1973, Delhi Prabhupāda: Western side it should be less. Now in America it is early in the morning. Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Half*-past four. Eleven hours' difference. In Los Angeles. Śyāmasundara: Eleven to Los Angeles? It is five to London, four and a half to five. From London to Los Angeles, it is . . . Prabhupāda: Six hours. Śyāmasundara: I think it is eight. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Śyāmasundara: It is five to New York from London. Prabhupāda: And three hours. Śyāmasundara: Three more. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have seen my watch there, that Karāndhara has purchased? Śyāmasundara: I heard four different watches are there, four clocks. It's an international clock. Brahmānanda: International clock, time zone clock. *Śyāmasundara: Twenty*-four . . . Brahmānanda: It will give you the exact time in any one of the time zones in the world. There is a map, and you dial. Prabhupāda: Latitude, according to latitude. All the cities at the same time. Brahmānanda: It is a computer clock. Prabhupāda: You can simply lower the button and you get time all over the world. Brahmānanda: A.m. or p.m. Prabhupāda: Two hundred and twenty dollars. Śyāmasundara: Two hundred and fifty dollars. Devotee (2): Does it give the temperature also? Prabhupāda: No. His name is there, the blind is there. Śyāmasundara: You dial it. Prabhupāda: The time is light. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . time. Brahmānanda: And when it changes, it gives a click. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: When it changes, the minute changes, there's a little click. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Do you still have that watch I got you once, that computer watch? Brahmānanda: Well, he has . . . Prabhupāda: Broke it. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . pressing it too much. Brahmānanda: In order to change the time. Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That broke it. Devotee: Broke. Śyāmasundara: Is it fixed yet? Devotee: Oh, yes, it is fixed now. Devotee (2): It cost about twenty dollars. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): It costs twenty dollars, I think, to have it fixed. But now it's working. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda spoke to collaborate the computer watch and the computer on his desk. So both are exactly the same. Devotee (2): Every day, every year be the same. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't change. Supposed to be . . . Prabhupāda: I was talking in London. I was giving time to someone. Śyāmasundara: Someone was calling you from Los Angeles? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda would dial and say: "Oh, call Śyāmasundara. What time is it?" So he would dial the time, and it was five o'clock in the morning. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) That's good. Specially for . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . calls. Those who are internationally collect, for them that's important. Brahmānanda: Someone has just lent me this. Prabhupāda: What it is? Brahmānanda: (loud buzzing sound) Alarm watch, to remind me to go to kīrtana . (loud buzzing sound) Prabhupāda: Made in? Brahmānanda: Switzerland. Prabhupāda: They are making wonderful achievement in the material world. That is no doubt. Not very much. We are under Lord Kṛṣṇa's side, when you stop death, otherwise it is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's movement. We are understood in the beginning, where you can stop death. That is not . . . Śyāmasundara: There is one scientist now who has discovered in the old people's bodies a certain hormone, or chemical, and his theory is that if he can find out the source of that chemical and stop it, that we can live for ever. We can live for a long time. Prabhupāda: They will never find it. (laughter) No. The yogic process is the same—they keep the hormone fresh. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is the way. If you keep the hormone fresh, then you can . . . so long it is fresh, you cannot die. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: He'll have to die. Just like the bank balance, you have got one thousand dollars. You don't spend—the money is there. So yogic process is like that. That samādhi . . . it becomes samādhi , no breathing. That means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing duration, and if you don't spend it, then you can live. That is yogic process: breathing control. They don't breathe. Suppose I am breathing ten thousand times daily. So if I don't breathe, that ten thousand rupees is in my stock as bank balance. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: This is the point. But you cannot be immortal. Devotee: I'm . . .? Prabhupāda: The balance, it expend . . . what is called? Brahmānanda: Expendable? Devotee: Expendable. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you don't expend—so much gain. Not that you can increase. Bank balance, you have got one thousand dollars. If you don't spend, it is always one thousand dollars. Brahmānanda: What about interest? No interest? Śyāmasundara: No interest. Brahmānanda: No interest. Prabhupāda: No interest. Checking account there is no interest. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Swiss account. Prabhupāda: No interest. Not obligatory. (laughter) When it is bank book account, then it is . . . Devotee: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Brahmānanda: Automatic. Prabhupāda: So the yogic process is like that. But that is not the process of check, stopping death. You can delay death. That you can delay, so it's a hundred years, two hundred years, five hundred years, or even more than that. You can delay, but it is not that stoppage. Śyāmasundara: But you have to spend something. Your heart has to beat. Prabhupāda: No. Samādhi , I think heart goes on, breathing stops. Devotee: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: How does . . . how does the skin stay alive, everything keeping from corruption? Prabhupāda: Well, the breathing . . . just like in the tree there is no breathing, but that does not mean they are dead. Breathing is not death. This is their nonsense science, "Stoppage of breathing is death." At least in . . . no. The heart beating is also stopped. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He breathes very slow, almost like stopped, but he breathes. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1973, Delhi Prabhupāda: Western side it should be less. Now in America it is early in the morning. Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Half*-past four. Eleven hours' difference. In Los Angeles. Śyāmasundara: Eleven to Los Angeles? It is five to London, four and a half to five. From London to Los Angeles, it is . . . Prabhupāda: Six hours. Śyāmasundara: I think it is eight. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Śyāmasundara: It is five to New York from London. Prabhupāda: And three hours. Śyāmasundara: Three more. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have seen my watch there, that Karāndhara has purchased? Śyāmasundara: I heard four different watches are there, four clocks. It's an international clock. Brahmānanda: International clock, time zone clock. *Śyāmasundara: Twenty*-four . . . Brahmānanda: It will give you the exact time in any one of the time zones in the world. There is a map, and you dial. Prabhupāda: Latitude, according to latitude. All the cities at the same time. Brahmānanda: It is a computer clock. Prabhupāda: You can simply lower the button and you get time all over the world. Brahmānanda: A.m. or p.m. Prabhupāda: Two hundred and twenty dollars. Śyāmasundara: Two hundred and fifty dollars. Devotee (2): Does it give the temperature also? Prabhupāda: No. His name is there, the blind is there. Śyāmasundara: You dial it. Prabhupāda: The time is light. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . time. Brahmānanda: And when it changes, it gives a click. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: When it changes, the minute changes, there's a little click. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Do you still have that watch I got you once, that computer watch? Brahmānanda: Well, he has . . . Prabhupāda: Broke it. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . pressing it too much. Brahmānanda: In order to change the time. Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That broke it. Devotee: Broke. Śyāmasundara: Is it fixed yet? Devotee: Oh, yes, it is fixed now. Devotee (2): It cost about twenty dollars. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): It costs twenty dollars, I think, to have it fixed. But now it's working. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda spoke to collaborate the computer watch and the computer on his desk. So both are exactly the same. Devotee (2): Every day, every year be the same. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't change. Supposed to be . . . Prabhupāda: I was talking in London. I was giving time to someone. Śyāmasundara: Someone was calling you from Los Angeles? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda would dial and say: "Oh, call Śyāmasundara. What time is it?" So he would dial the time, and it was five o'clock in the morning. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) That's good. Specially for . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . calls. Those who are internationally collect, for them that's important. Brahmānanda: Someone has just lent me this. Prabhupāda: What it is? Brahmānanda: (loud buzzing sound) Alarm watch, to remind me to go to kīrtana . (loud buzzing sound) Prabhupāda: Made in? Brahmānanda: Switzerland. Prabhupāda: They are making wonderful achievement in the material world. That is no doubt. Not very much. We are under Lord Kṛṣṇa's side, when you stop death, otherwise it is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's movement. We are understood in the beginning, where you can stop death. That is not . . . Śyāmasundara: There is one scientist now who has discovered in the old people's bodies a certain hormone, or chemical, and his theory is that if he can find out the source of that chemical and stop it, that we can live for ever. We can live for a long time. Prabhupāda: They will never find it. (laughter) No. The yogic process is the same—they keep the hormone fresh. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is the way. If you keep the hormone fresh, then you can . . . so long it is fresh, you cannot die. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: He'll have to die. Just like the bank balance, you have got one thousand dollars. You don't spend—the money is there. So yogic process is like that. That samādhi . . . it becomes samādhi , no breathing. That means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing duration, and if you don't spend it, then you can live. That is yogic process: breathing control. They don't breathe. Suppose I am breathing ten thousand times daily. So if I don't breathe, that ten thousand rupees is in my stock as bank balance. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: This is the point. But you cannot be immortal. Devotee: I'm . . .? Prabhupāda: The balance, it expend . . . what is called? Brahmānanda: Expendable? Devotee: Expendable. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you don't expend—so much gain. Not that you can increase. Bank balance, you have got one thousand dollars. If you don't spend, it is always one thousand dollars. Brahmānanda: What about interest? No interest? Śyāmasundara: No interest. Brahmānanda: No interest. Prabhupāda: No interest. Checking account there is no interest. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Swiss account. Prabhupāda: No interest. Not obligatory. (laughter) When it is bank book account, then it is . . . Devotee: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Brahmānanda: Automatic. Prabhupāda: So the yogic process is like that. But that is not the process of check, stopping death. You can delay death. That you can delay, so it's a hundred years, two hundred years, five hundred years, or even more than that. You can delay, but it is not that stoppage. Śyāmasundara: But you have to spend something. Your heart has to beat. Prabhupāda: No. Samādhi , I think heart goes on, breathing stops. Devotee: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: How does . . . how does the skin stay alive, everything keeping from corruption? Prabhupāda: Well, the breathing . . . just like in the tree there is no breathing, but that does not mean they are dead. Breathing is not death. This is their nonsense science, "Stoppage of breathing is death." At least in . . . no. The heart beating is also stopped. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He breathes very slow, almost like stopped, but he breathes. (end) Room Conversation -- November 8, 1973, New Delhi *Prabhupāda: Give up your material activities and engage yourself in spiritual activities. That is mukti. Just like a man in diseased condition, he is acting. He is also acting. He is also passing stool, passing urine, eating something, lying down, talking. He has got activities. But that activities and when he is free from the disease, that activity is different. Similarly, if you change your activity, you can become mukta even in this life. That is mukti, real mukti. Muktir hitvānyathā*-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. If you give up your diseased conditional activities... Just like these boys who are in Kṛṣṇa, they are muktas, because they are not interested with any material activities. They are not interested to read in the morning any newspaper. No. They cannot waste their time in that way or take part in politics. No. They are simply interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading these books. Therefore they are muktas. They are all liberated. Because hitvānyathā-rūpam. Other people, they are reading newspaper, doing all nonsense, but they are not interested. The anyathā-rūpam. That is material business. Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Svarūpa means jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Every living entity is eternally Kṛṣṇa dāsa. So if you give up these material activities and engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa's service, you are mukta. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Guest (1) (Indian man): Hundred percent. Prabhupāda: Hundred percent, yes. That's all. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. This is mukti. Any other question. Guest (2): Yes. I have very many questions to ask. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. But you cannot assimilate all the answers in one day. That is not possible. You see. You have many questions, but ask in many days, not in one day. Otherwise you will get indigestion. (laughter) You will not be able to... Simply you go on questioning, questioning, and don't take anything. That is no use. Take. Make one question. Try to understand. Adopt it in life. Then make another question. Don't take all the answers at a time and become suffering in dysentery. No. (laughter) Don't do that. That's alright. You cannot take one month's food in one hour. Can you take? So that's alright. Gradually. Your questions are nice, but don't take the answers all in a day. That will be not good. If you understand very easily, then you will forget very easily. Guest (2): That is natural. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Natural, you see. If you understand little with difficulty, then you will forget also with difficulty. This is the way. So any other question? After this question*-answer? (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1973, Delhi ( bhajana with harmonium) Prabhupāda: You follow. ( bhajana continues with new tune) (break) (Prabhupāda leads bhajana , with devotees responding) Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) This tune I don't . . .? Ha? Brahmānanda, do you know it? Brahmānanda: This tune? No. Devotee: You did it in London. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: In London you did also, I think. Prabhupāda: No, I think I did it in Los Angeles? Eh? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, when I was in . . . (indistinct) . . . in Los Angeles there is a . . . (indistinct) Brahmānanda: (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. In front of a school. At that time Puruṣottama was. Puruṣottama and Kārtikeya and Sudāmā, and there was competition to collect flowers in the morning, early in the morning. So Sudāmā took first, and Puruṣottama second and Kārtikeya third. (laughter) Kārtikeya would collect so much and Puruṣottama so much. And Sudāmā . . . (laughter) There was regular competition for collecting flowers in the morning. Devotee: In the neighborhood? Prabhupāda: Yes. Collecting means stealing. (laughter) Stealing for Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Sudāmā was telling me that he had unfair, because they got to go first, so they got all the closest flowers, and he had to go far away to find his flowers. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He still he collected more. All rose and . . . Brahmānanda: Gardenia. Prabhupāda: Gardenia. No, there was little others, but mostly roses and gardenias. Here we cannot; neither there is any flowers in front of any house. So your country is in so many ways benedicted. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and you are perfect. You'll be demigods on this planet. Push this movement. Here in India so much scarcity. It's a curse. Scarcity means it is curse. So after my coming, was there any program? No. In the paṇḍāl ? You were there? Devotee: After you left. Devotee (2): We were in the program after Prabhupada left. And then at nine o'clock there was prasādam . *Prabhupāda: No question*-answer? Devotee: Individually there were questions. There were not so many people after . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: There were not so many people after everything was over. (break) Prabhupāda: (laughter) Crossing three oceans and seven seas and thirteen rivers, then come to this island. Unless one is very Columbus, serious, he will not come. So we say in Bengali, saat samudra tero nadi , seven seas and thirteen rivers, after crossing. People cannot come with their car also, that is another thing. Gentleman will come, and you will have to leave your car three miles away. That is another thing. Only the most interested persons are coming. Therefore you will see, they are all . . . they are interested persons. It is better to select the most interested. Devotee: Next time we will have it at Palam Airport. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Next time we will have it further away, so we can get the most interested. Prabhupāda: So then nobody will come. (laughter) They say that, "Your intelligence is so big that it cannot be captured." And somebody says: "Your intelligence is so subtle, it may be said that you have no intelligence." (laughter) So one man's intelligence cannot be captured; another man has no intelligence. Eh? "Your intelligence is so fine that it may be said that there is no intelligence," and "Your intelligence is so big that it cannot be captured." So both ways it proves no intelligence. Another story is that one boy, he appeared in his examination. His father asked, "How did you reply to your examination paper?" "Yes, quite nice." Then he said: "How?" "So there were very difficult questions that I could not answer, and there were easier questions, they are known to me; I did not answer." (laughter) "They are known to me. What is the use of answering? The difficult questions I could not answer, and the easier, that I know, there is no use of answering." That means he did not do anything. *So Rukmiṇī*-devī, how you are? You have learned something, doll-making? Rukmiṇī dāsī: I'm trying. Prabhupāda: Still trying? *Rukmiṇī dāsī: I am making Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . . baradrāj, ṣaḍ-bhūja , Ādi-deva. *Prabhupāda: Ṣaḍ*-bhūja . . . no, simply you have to learn the art, how to do it. Then you can make any number of bhūjas—ṣaḍ-bhūja , ten- bhuja , just (laughter) you have to learn how to make the straw . . . what is called? Devotee: Body. Prabhupāda: Straw body. You have learned that, how to do it? Rukmiṇī dāsī: We are learning. Devotee: That is the main problem. Prabhupāda: That is the main thing, yes. Structure. Then you can . . . any artist can, I mean, do the covering, the art. But these people, they know; *within half an hour they make one body, straw body. In Calcutta there is a place, Kumartuli, simply they are doll*-makers. So during . . . there are so many pūjās , Sarasvatī-pūjā, Kalki-pūjā, Kālī-pūjā. So each man will make ten deities, twenty deities, daily. Devotee: That is small? Prabhupāda: Eh? Not very small, say two feet high. Devotee: Where is this in Calcutta? *Prabhupāda: Calcutta it is called Kumartuli. Kumartuli means "Potters' quarters." They are all potters. That was the benefit of caste system. A class, they are simply engaged in pottery, family*-wise, all—small children, wife, husband, everyone. They know. Similarly goldsmith, blacksmith, carpenter, all these artisans classified, and by generation they know everything. Weaver. So there are no competition, and because they do it family-wise, their charges are not very much. They are satisfied, any little amount they get. That was the Indian civilization. Brāhmaṇa is satisfied. *All other workers, they are satisfied with what they get. Vaiśya, agriculture, whatever he is producing, that's all right. The balance time they would save for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This was the basic principle, and these rascal leaders, they thought that they are not energetic—inertia. Give them wine, give them meat, they will be enthusiastic. That is the present policy. Simple life. Now they have changed—very complicated, complex life, industrial life, ugra*-karmā. Ugra-karmā , that is described in the sixteenth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā . Find out that. Pradyumna: Find what? Prabhupāda: Sixteenth chapter, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca vidur āsurāḥ janā ( BG 16.7). Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca vidur āsurāḥ janā. Pradyumna: (reads) "Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." Prabhupāda: Then? Next verse. Pradyumna: (reads) "They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust." Prabhupāda: Then? Go on. Pradyumna: (reads) *Prabhupāda: Ugra*-karmā, ugra-karmā . Go on. Pradyumna: . . . kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ (BG 16.9). Prabhupāda: kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ Pradyumna: (reads) "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." Prabhupāda: Purport. Pradyumna: (reads) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing . . ." Prabhupāda: This has been proved true by the last two world wars—destruction. Twice Europe, whole Europe became destroyed. Is it not? Germany especially. Russia also. Devotee (3): I was there in Poland after the war, in Europe. But everything, practically all of Warsaw was practically was completely destroyed. All the people were living in ruins. *Prabhupāda: Yes, jagato 'hitāḥ. Kṣayāya , this ugra*-karmā . The industry is ugra-karmā . It is not simple. Industrial enterprise is ugra-karmā. Just like this room, big, big crucible. You have seen? How you have seen? Rukmiṇī dāsī: The crucible is like a . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Iron, other metals, especially iron, melted, and that is molded. If somehow or other it slips, all men will be killed immediately. Such a big crucible. It is carried by railway, then it is lifted, then gradually poured in the mold. Then it goes to make big, big beams and all this. Ugra*-karmā. They require big, big beams for the skyscraper building. Ha? Do they not require, big, big beams? The skyscraper buildings fitting those big, big beams, the American Indians are engaged? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: The Americans cannot do it. They do not take so much risk. They have had some accidents also? Devotee: The Mohawk Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee: One tribe, the Mohawk . . . Prabhupāda: Mohawk. Devotee: . . . especially for heights, because they are from mountains, so they were employed on top of bridges and buildings. Devotee (2): They're not scared of looking down. It is so far high that the Indians are not scared to be so high. *Prabhupāda: If I am put there, immediately I will fall. Yes. It is gravity. No inexpert man can do that. Ugra*-karmā. If you can live on the ground, little production milk and grains . . . ugra-karmā, kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ (BG 16.9). If we say that this is ugra-karmā , they will say: "Oh, you want to go to the primitive world." Primitive world means there was no improvement. (pause) What people are remarking about our festival? Did you hear, overhear anything? No. Devotee: Many people are coming; they are impressed with our activities. They especially come because they are impressed. They have been to some of our previous programs. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: They have attended some of our previous programs. Prabhupāda: Yes, previously they were so enthusiastic. They wanted to continue, requested me to continue, and the LC manager said: "Yes, I will give extension." Do you know that? But you stopped. We could have continued, they were very much pleased. Hansaraj was sorry that . . . he remarked that. Devotee: In his talk. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, that's all right. But number of people was greater than yesterday. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: It may increase. Devotee: Every day was very glorious. The sankīrtan parties distributed many books. Brahmānanda: The Mauritius High Commissioner said that he was lifted tonight. He felt lifted up by attending. He said: "Oh, this has given me a lift." I told him because it is the meaning of life, that we are doing so many things without knowing meaning. So when we actually know the meaning . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody knows what is the aim of life. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā . My Guru Mahārāja used to say bokāran . Bokā you know? It is Indian word, bokā. Bokā means foolish. Such important life they are wasting like animals. So, Anita, how you are feeling. Ha? What your father says? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ha? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You do not like to stay there? (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why? Just go and sleep on the lap of your mother. Ha? Your mother is angry? Mātājī: No. Prabhupāda: She is not. Father? Mātājī: No. Brahmānanda: He telephoned. Prabhupāda: Ha? Brahmānanda: He telephoned me today. Prabhupāda: Hm. Why? He said . . . (indistinct) . . .? Brahmānanda: He said that he is sorry he did not bring the car, and that he wanted to come to the program; he would try to come. Prabhupāda: Hm. The father, mother, both should be . . . they are blessed, because their devotee's child. So they are feeling . . . Devotee: You have stolen us. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: You have stolen us from all of our parents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, your mother said. Brahmānanda: Yes. She has given two sons to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked her, "Give us some contribution." "I have given two, my two sons!" (devotees laugh) And "That's all right. Don't be . . . (indistinct) . . ." She was coming in that time, so I asked her, that "Give us some contribution Mrs. . . . (indistinct) . . ." "So I have given you my two sons!" Why give father and mother? They are so much feeling obliged. Our Acutyananda's mother would also come. Devotee: Oh, yes. She came regularly. Prabhupāda: And that Trayādīśa, his mother. No, our Mr. Pellan, he is also happy, at least. Every sober father and mother will be happy. What your father says? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He always asks, "Where is Prabhupāda?" Prabhupāda: He is not happy? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes. He always asks: "Where is Prabhupāda?" Prabhupāda: Accha . Her father came to me at marriage. I called him. Her father is a big businessman. What business is your father in? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Textiles. Prabhupāda: He has got mill? Rukmiṇī dāsī: No, he has two shops in the suburbs. Prabhupāda: Oh. Seller. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How many children he has got? Rukmiṇī dāsī: One brother and one sister. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what is the condition of your brother? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is a scholar. Prabhupāda: A what? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is younger than me, but he was becoming a scholar. Prabhupāda: He has passed M.A.? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has passed his master's? Rukmiṇī dāsī: No, no, he is young. He is taking four years of high school in three years. Prabhupāda: What is the age? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is, umm, he is seventeen. Prabhupāda: Much younger. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he likes you, your brother? Mother? The mother also came, I think. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kṛṣṇa, be happy. If anyone gets Kṛṣṇa, then he doesn't want any more anything. Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Dhruva Mahārāja did penance. So Viṣṇu, "Take benediction. You've undergone so much austerity. Whatever you want, you can take it from Me." Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce. He went for tapasya for getting kingdom, but when he was offered the benediction, he says that, "I don't want anything," kṛtārtho'smi . "I am so much obliged and satisfied. I don't want it." "I was searching after some pieces of broken glasses; *now I have got diamonds." Kācaṁ vicinvann api divya*-ratnaṁ. "Then where is my demand any more? I went searching after broken pieces of glass, and now I have got diamonds." So where is the case for asking him? Kṛtārtho : "I am fully satisfied; I don't want." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One is fully satisfied with Kṛṣṇa, then he . . . sit down anywhere, any place, full of thought of Kṛṣṇa—no more worries. That is gopīs' perfection. They don't want. Even Kṛṣṇa is not with them, the thought of Kṛṣṇa is there, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is now in the forest. He is walking on the ground full of pebbles on His soft soles of His feet," and they are in anxiety. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even Kṛṣṇa is not present, thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That is their perfection. gopīs, they are the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and out of the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī, the topmost gopī , who has purchased Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is purchased by Rādhārāṇī. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, to understand what assets He has got, that Rādhārāṇī is pleased so much, therefore He took the . . . what is called, mode of Rādhārāṇī to understand Himself. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the ecstasy of Rādhārāṇī feeling separation from Kṛṣṇa. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa left Vṛndāvana for Mathurā, and then all the gopīs and Rādhārāṇī, they are feeling separation. That is the mode of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, how they were feeling separation from Kṛṣṇa. So Rukmiṇī devi, you are feeling like that? Like the gopīs? Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first stage. Govinda*-viraheṇa me . What is that verse? Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yugāyitaṁ . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. Nimiṣa . The . . . what is called? Devotee: Blinking. Prabhupāda: Blinking, the blinking of the eyes. That is called nimiṣa . It is called nimiṣa . This time is called nimiṣa . So that nimiṣa is twelve years—so long. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. And cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam , tears coming down, torrents of rain. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ : whole world vacant; *govinda*-viraheṇa me , being separated from Govinda. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . (break) . . . grahaṇe bhaviṣyate. What is that verse? (break) . . . sidhardaya . Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: (break) Devotee: . . . very satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . sixteen times thirty*-five, with four hundred and eighty. That comparison we get. We started with one hundred and twenty. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1973, Delhi ( bhajana with harmonium) Prabhupāda: You follow. ( bhajana continues with new tune) (break) (Prabhupāda leads bhajana , with devotees responding) Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) This tune I don't . . .? Ha? Brahmānanda, do you know it? Brahmānanda: This tune? No. Devotee: You did it in London. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: In London you did also, I think. Prabhupāda: No, I think I did it in Los Angeles? Eh? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, when I was in . . . (indistinct) . . . in Los Angeles there is a . . . (indistinct) Brahmānanda: (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. In front of a school. At that time Puruṣottama was. Puruṣottama and Kārtikeya and Sudāmā, and there was competition to collect flowers in the morning, early in the morning. So Sudāmā took first, and Puruṣottama second and Kārtikeya third. (laughter) Kārtikeya would collect so much and Puruṣottama so much. And Sudāmā . . . (laughter) There was regular competition for collecting flowers in the morning. Devotee: In the neighborhood? Prabhupāda: Yes. Collecting means stealing. (laughter) Stealing for Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Sudāmā was telling me that he had unfair, because they got to go first, so they got all the closest flowers, and he had to go far away to find his flowers. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He still he collected more. All rose and . . . Brahmānanda: Gardenia. Prabhupāda: Gardenia. No, there was little others, but mostly roses and gardenias. Here we cannot; neither there is any flowers in front of any house. So your country is in so many ways benedicted. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and you are perfect. You'll be demigods on this planet. Push this movement. Here in India so much scarcity. It's a curse. Scarcity means it is curse. So after my coming, was there any program? No. In the paṇḍāl ? You were there? Devotee: After you left. Devotee (2): We were in the program after Prabhupada left. And then at nine o'clock there was prasādam . *Prabhupāda: No question*-answer? Devotee: Individually there were questions. There were not so many people after . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: There were not so many people after everything was over. (break) Prabhupāda: (laughter) Crossing three oceans and seven seas and thirteen rivers, then come to this island. Unless one is very Columbus, serious, he will not come. So we say in Bengali, saat samudra tero nadi , seven seas and thirteen rivers, after crossing. People cannot come with their car also, that is another thing. Gentleman will come, and you will have to leave your car three miles away. That is another thing. Only the most interested persons are coming. Therefore you will see, they are all . . . they are interested persons. It is better to select the most interested. Devotee: Next time we will have it at Palam Airport. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Next time we will have it further away, so we can get the most interested. Prabhupāda: So then nobody will come. (laughter) They say that, "Your intelligence is so big that it cannot be captured." And somebody says: "Your intelligence is so subtle, it may be said that you have no intelligence." (laughter) So one man's intelligence cannot be captured; another man has no intelligence. Eh? "Your intelligence is so fine that it may be said that there is no intelligence," and "Your intelligence is so big that it cannot be captured." So both ways it proves no intelligence. Another story is that one boy, he appeared in his examination. His father asked, "How did you reply to your examination paper?" "Yes, quite nice." Then he said: "How?" "So there were very difficult questions that I could not answer, and there were easier questions, they are known to me; I did not answer." (laughter) "They are known to me. What is the use of answering? The difficult questions I could not answer, and the easier, that I know, there is no use of answering." That means he did not do anything. *So Rukmiṇī*-devī, how you are? You have learned something, doll-making? Rukmiṇī dāsī: I'm trying. Prabhupāda: Still trying? *Rukmiṇī dāsī: I am making Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . . baradrāj, ṣaḍ-bhūja , Ādi-deva. *Prabhupāda: Ṣaḍ*-bhūja . . . no, simply you have to learn the art, how to do it. Then you can make any number of bhūjas—ṣaḍ-bhūja , ten- bhuja , just (laughter) you have to learn how to make the straw . . . what is called? Devotee: Body. Prabhupāda: Straw body. You have learned that, how to do it? Rukmiṇī dāsī: We are learning. Devotee: That is the main problem. Prabhupāda: That is the main thing, yes. Structure. Then you can . . . any artist can, I mean, do the covering, the art. But these people, they know; *within half an hour they make one body, straw body. In Calcutta there is a place, Kumartuli, simply they are doll*-makers. So during . . . there are so many pūjās , Sarasvatī-pūjā, Kalki-pūjā, Kālī-pūjā. So each man will make ten deities, twenty deities, daily. Devotee: That is small? Prabhupāda: Eh? Not very small, say two feet high. Devotee: Where is this in Calcutta? *Prabhupāda: Calcutta it is called Kumartuli. Kumartuli means "Potters' quarters." They are all potters. That was the benefit of caste system. A class, they are simply engaged in pottery, family*-wise, all—small children, wife, husband, everyone. They know. Similarly goldsmith, blacksmith, carpenter, all these artisans classified, and by generation they know everything. Weaver. So there are no competition, and because they do it family-wise, their charges are not very much. They are satisfied, any little amount they get. That was the Indian civilization. Brāhmaṇa is satisfied. *All other workers, they are satisfied with what they get. Vaiśya, agriculture, whatever he is producing, that's all right. The balance time they would save for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This was the basic principle, and these rascal leaders, they thought that they are not energetic—inertia. Give them wine, give them meat, they will be enthusiastic. That is the present policy. Simple life. Now they have changed—very complicated, complex life, industrial life, ugra*-karmā. Ugra-karmā , that is described in the sixteenth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā . Find out that. Pradyumna: Find what? Prabhupāda: Sixteenth chapter, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca vidur āsurāḥ janā ( BG 16.7). Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca vidur āsurāḥ janā. Pradyumna: (reads) "Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." Prabhupāda: Then? Next verse. Pradyumna: (reads) "They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust." Prabhupāda: Then? Go on. Pradyumna: (reads) *Prabhupāda: Ugra*-karmā, ugra-karmā . Go on. Pradyumna: . . . kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ (BG 16.9). Prabhupāda: kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ Pradyumna: (reads) "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." Prabhupāda: Purport. Pradyumna: (reads) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing . . ." Prabhupāda: This has been proved true by the last two world wars—destruction. Twice Europe, whole Europe became destroyed. Is it not? Germany especially. Russia also. Devotee (3): I was there in Poland after the war, in Europe. But everything, practically all of Warsaw was practically was completely destroyed. All the people were living in ruins. *Prabhupāda: Yes, jagato 'hitāḥ. Kṣayāya , this ugra*-karmā . The industry is ugra-karmā . It is not simple. Industrial enterprise is ugra-karmā. Just like this room, big, big crucible. You have seen? How you have seen? Rukmiṇī dāsī: The crucible is like a . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Iron, other metals, especially iron, melted, and that is molded. If somehow or other it slips, all men will be killed immediately. Such a big crucible. It is carried by railway, then it is lifted, then gradually poured in the mold. Then it goes to make big, big beams and all this. Ugra*-karmā. They require big, big beams for the skyscraper building. Ha? Do they not require, big, big beams? The skyscraper buildings fitting those big, big beams, the American Indians are engaged? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: The Americans cannot do it. They do not take so much risk. They have had some accidents also? Devotee: The Mohawk Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee: One tribe, the Mohawk . . . Prabhupāda: Mohawk. Devotee: . . . especially for heights, because they are from mountains, so they were employed on top of bridges and buildings. Devotee (2): They're not scared of looking down. It is so far high that the Indians are not scared to be so high. *Prabhupāda: If I am put there, immediately I will fall. Yes. It is gravity. No inexpert man can do that. Ugra*-karmā. If you can live on the ground, little production milk and grains . . . ugra-karmā, kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ (BG 16.9). If we say that this is ugra-karmā , they will say: "Oh, you want to go to the primitive world." Primitive world means there was no improvement. (pause) What people are remarking about our festival? Did you hear, overhear anything? No. Devotee: Many people are coming; they are impressed with our activities. They especially come because they are impressed. They have been to some of our previous programs. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: They have attended some of our previous programs. Prabhupāda: Yes, previously they were so enthusiastic. They wanted to continue, requested me to continue, and the LC manager said: "Yes, I will give extension." Do you know that? But you stopped. We could have continued, they were very much pleased. Hansaraj was sorry that . . . he remarked that. Devotee: In his talk. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, that's all right. But number of people was greater than yesterday. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: It may increase. Devotee: Every day was very glorious. The sankīrtan parties distributed many books. Brahmānanda: The Mauritius High Commissioner said that he was lifted tonight. He felt lifted up by attending. He said: "Oh, this has given me a lift." I told him because it is the meaning of life, that we are doing so many things without knowing meaning. So when we actually know the meaning . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody knows what is the aim of life. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā . My Guru Mahārāja used to say bokāran . Bokā you know? It is Indian word, bokā. Bokā means foolish. Such important life they are wasting like animals. So, Anita, how you are feeling. Ha? What your father says? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ha? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You do not like to stay there? (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why? Just go and sleep on the lap of your mother. Ha? Your mother is angry? Mātājī: No. Prabhupāda: She is not. Father? Mātājī: No. Brahmānanda: He telephoned. Prabhupāda: Ha? Brahmānanda: He telephoned me today. Prabhupāda: Hm. Why? He said . . . (indistinct) . . .? Brahmānanda: He said that he is sorry he did not bring the car, and that he wanted to come to the program; he would try to come. Prabhupāda: Hm. The father, mother, both should be . . . they are blessed, because their devotee's child. So they are feeling . . . Devotee: You have stolen us. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: You have stolen us from all of our parents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, your mother said. Brahmānanda: Yes. She has given two sons to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked her, "Give us some contribution." "I have given two, my two sons!" (devotees laugh) And "That's all right. Don't be . . . (indistinct) . . ." She was coming in that time, so I asked her, that "Give us some contribution Mrs. . . . (indistinct) . . ." "So I have given you my two sons!" Why give father and mother? They are so much feeling obliged. Our Acutyananda's mother would also come. Devotee: Oh, yes. She came regularly. Prabhupāda: And that Trayādīśa, his mother. No, our Mr. Pellan, he is also happy, at least. Every sober father and mother will be happy. What your father says? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He always asks, "Where is Prabhupāda?" Prabhupāda: He is not happy? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes. He always asks: "Where is Prabhupāda?" Prabhupāda: Accha . Her father came to me at marriage. I called him. Her father is a big businessman. What business is your father in? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Textiles. Prabhupāda: He has got mill? Rukmiṇī dāsī: No, he has two shops in the suburbs. Prabhupāda: Oh. Seller. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How many children he has got? Rukmiṇī dāsī: One brother and one sister. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what is the condition of your brother? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is a scholar. Prabhupāda: A what? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is younger than me, but he was becoming a scholar. Prabhupāda: He has passed M.A.? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has passed his master's? Rukmiṇī dāsī: No, no, he is young. He is taking four years of high school in three years. Prabhupāda: What is the age? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is, umm, he is seventeen. Prabhupāda: Much younger. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he likes you, your brother? Mother? The mother also came, I think. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kṛṣṇa, be happy. If anyone gets Kṛṣṇa, then he doesn't want any more anything. Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Dhruva Mahārāja did penance. So Viṣṇu, "Take benediction. You've undergone so much austerity. Whatever you want, you can take it from Me." Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce. He went for tapasya for getting kingdom, but when he was offered the benediction, he says that, "I don't want anything," kṛtārtho'smi . "I am so much obliged and satisfied. I don't want it." "I was searching after some pieces of broken glasses; *now I have got diamonds." Kācaṁ vicinvann api divya*-ratnaṁ. "Then where is my demand any more? I went searching after broken pieces of glass, and now I have got diamonds." So where is the case for asking him? Kṛtārtho : "I am fully satisfied; I don't want." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One is fully satisfied with Kṛṣṇa, then he . . . sit down anywhere, any place, full of thought of Kṛṣṇa—no more worries. That is gopīs' perfection. They don't want. Even Kṛṣṇa is not with them, the thought of Kṛṣṇa is there, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is now in the forest. He is walking on the ground full of pebbles on His soft soles of His feet," and they are in anxiety. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even Kṛṣṇa is not present, thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That is their perfection. gopīs, they are the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and out of the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī, the topmost gopī , who has purchased Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is purchased by Rādhārāṇī. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, to understand what assets He has got, that Rādhārāṇī is pleased so much, therefore He took the . . . what is called, mode of Rādhārāṇī to understand Himself. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the ecstasy of Rādhārāṇī feeling separation from Kṛṣṇa. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa left Vṛndāvana for Mathurā, and then all the gopīs and Rādhārāṇī, they are feeling separation. That is the mode of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, how they were feeling separation from Kṛṣṇa. So Rukmiṇī devi, you are feeling like that? Like the gopīs? Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first stage. Govinda*-viraheṇa me . What is that verse? Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yugāyitaṁ . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. Nimiṣa . The . . . what is called? Devotee: Blinking. Prabhupāda: Blinking, the blinking of the eyes. That is called nimiṣa . It is called nimiṣa . This time is called nimiṣa . So that nimiṣa is twelve years—so long. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. And cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam , tears coming down, torrents of rain. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ : whole world vacant; *govinda*-viraheṇa me , being separated from Govinda. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . (break) . . . grahaṇe bhaviṣyate. What is that verse? (break) . . . sidhardaya . Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: (break) Devotee: . . . very satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . sixteen times thirty*-five, with four hundred and eighty. That comparison we get. We started with one hundred and twenty. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Morning Walk -- December 2, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Somebody who was atheist, talk with Kīrtanānanda. Bali Mardana: Hṛdayānanda Swami. Prabhupāda: You, you were atheist? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is your view of atheist? What is your argument? Hṛdayānanda: I don't know. I couldn't think of any good argument. They say that... No, it's not a good argument, though. Bali Mardana: It's all one, isn't it. Hṛdayānanda: Kīrtanānanda, his argument was, when he was an atheist, he said that actually the void is truth, and all categories or all varieties are illusion. So he said that we may think that actually spiritual variegatedness is transcendental, but that's actually also our illusion. That was his argument. Prabhupāda: So what did you reply? Hṛdayānanda: I replied that if categories are illusion, then his talking is also illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Hṛdayānanda: So I wouldn't let him say anything else. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, very good reply. "And you are also illusioned. Whatever nonsense you are talking, that is also illusion. Finish. Void, everything." Then what did he reply? Hṛdayānanda: He said... I just wouldn't let him say anything. Whenever he tried to talk, I just said, "That's illusion." [break] Prabhupāda: This reply we give to the Māyāvādīs. So we speak to the Māyāvādī guru, that "Whether you are in māyā? Because everything is māyā, so whether you are also in māyā?" So if he says, "Yes," then how he can become guru? Karandhara: Professor Bharati said that. And when the students asked him, "Isn't everything in this world illusion?", he said, "Yes, everything is illusion, but I like it very much." Prabhupāda: He likes it very much. Karandhara: That's what he said. Prabhupāda: Therefore he is a rascal. That proves that he is a rascal. *Hṛdayānanda: After that debate, many, many people have bought Bhagavad*-gītās. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is good triumph. Yes. (begins chanting japa) [break] ...ponds like this, we remember immediately Bengal. Yes. In Bengal there are many, many ponds. (pause) What is called, this playing? What is this? Golf? Hṛdayānanda: Golf course. Prabhupāda: They are coming for playing golfs? Karandhara: Yes, as soon as it's light, they'll be playing. They work hard all week so that they can play golf on Sunday. Hṛdayānanda: They think that a gentleman should play golf. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fashion of the society. Karandhara: A man is considered very rich if he can play golf every day. The rich men play every day. Prabhupāda: It is very expensive, golf? Karandhara: Well, if you play golf, you don't have to work. People who are rich, they don't work. They just play golf all day. [break] Citraka: ...newspapers, that now he is follower of Śaṅkarācārya in India. The queen of Greece. She's a follower. Prabhupāda: Queen of Greece. This cloth is very inconvenient... [break] ...illusion. Accepting this illusion, wherefrom the idea came? Just like in the tailor's window, there are nice beautiful women or men standing. That is illusion. Actually, that is neither man or woman. It is doll. But wherefrom the idea came of this illusion? Hṛdayānanda: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless there is a real man, a real woman, how the illusory man and woman is there, doll? Illusion means which is not fact. So the fact must be there; otherwise how the illusion, reflection, comes? Illusion is exemplified by the mirage, water in the desert. So the man is or the animal is running after water, but that is not water. This is illusion. But that does not mean there is no water. This is the conclusion. Unless there is real water, how... (aside) You can give around here. How this illusion of water is there? Bali Mardana: Does that mean it is not possible to conceive of something that does not exist somewhere? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real fact. Karandhara: Some of them say that Brahman creates illusion to forget that he is Brahman. They say that Brahman, the one, creates illusion to forget that he's Brahman. That's his līlā. Prabhupāda: It is līlā. Then you have to accept that Brahman is a person. Karandhara: Well, they say there is only one person. There's no varieties of persons. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you have to accept the origin, the person. That is our philosophy. Then you accept our philosophy. Karandhara: Then they say, "Well it's not exactly a person, it's inconceivable." Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot say that He is not a person, because He is inconceivable. You cannot say whether He is person or not person, because you are illusioned, and inconceivable... But why you are thinking that because you cannot say perfectly, everyone cannot say perfectly? You are thinking like that. Just like we have got experience: one body cannot say something, but the other can say. Practical experience. Just like this child cannot say something but the father can say. Bali Mardana: It's their envious attitude. They are envious. *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not the question of envious. Because you are thinking that He is inconceivable, because you cannot say... But how can you say that another person cannot say? There are so many things I do not know. That does not mean that somebody else does not know. You may not know. Your experience is not mature. But how you can say, "Another person cannot have the experience"? So that is answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā, vedāhaṁ samatītāni, māṁ tu veda na kaścana: [Bg. 7.26] "I know everything, but nobody knows Me." There is the answer. So nobody knows Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. But Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself to the devotee. That is also said, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām [Bg. 10.10]. Bali Mardana: It was raining very hard yesterday. Perhaps that's why. Hṛdayānanda: All raining? Prabhupāda: It may be rain water. Karandhara: Well, they fill it. Usually they fill it on Saturdays and Sundays. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is it. Bali Mardana: It's too much for rain water. Karandhara: They practice fishing. Prabhupāda: Fishing? Karandhara: Fly casting. (pause) [break] Citraka: ...open a temple in Greece? Prabhupāda: I would like to open temples in every village, every city, what to speak of Greece. But we haven't got sufficient men. Karandhara: This boy is from Greece. Citraka: I will translate the books later. Prabhupāda: Oh, then you can open. But alone... You can be assisted with some of our men. That's nice proposal. We want to open in every city, every village, village to village. So go this way or around the...? Karandhara: This isn't too bad. We can go this way. It's not too wet. Citraka: Sometimes you have said that the Greek mythology comes from the *Purāṇas*. Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. In Greece I think some people know of our movement. Because in the airport as soon as some young men saw us, they chanted "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Yes. Maybe they are Europeans, but I had practical experience. [break] which..., that Park Avenue? Bali Mardana: Wednesday they are having a meeting. Perhaps on Wednesday. Prabhupāda: Wednesday. So you have to attend? No. Bali Mardana: No, I don't have to attend. The lawyers attend. If I attend, it may ruin everything. [break] Prabhupāda: ...one is yogi. Karmī, jñānī, yogi or bhakta. What is the difference between karmīs, jñānīs, yogis and bhakta? Hṛdayānanda: Karmī wants to enjoy the gross senses, the jñānī wants to enjoy the subtle mind, mental speculation, the yogi wants to manipulate the universe, mystic powers,... Prabhupāda: Material power. Hṛdayānanda: And a devotee has no material desires. (He wants) to serve Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And unless one is factually desireless, he cannot be happy. The karmī, jñānī, yogi, they are all full of desires. Therefore they are unhappy. Karmīs are the lowest of the unhappies, jñānīs are little advanced, yogis are little more advanced, and the perfection is the bhakta, devotees. Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. This is bhakta. [break] ...siddhi*-kāmī sakali aśānta. Bhukti means karmī, and mukti means jñānī. And siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, magic power, mystic power. That is called siddhi. Those who are practicing yoga, if they are actually yogis, they can have aṣṭa-siddhi. Aṇimā, laghimā. They can become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. Mahimā, prāpti. They can get anything they like. A yogi can get... Suppose if you want a pomegranate from Kabul, he will get immediately. Yes. That is yogi. As if he is snatching from the tree, yes. Prāpti-siddhi, īśitā. They can force their influence upon anyone. Īśitā, vaśitā. Yogis can hypnotize you. As he will say, you will act. As he will say, you will act. These yogis do that. They take something nonsense, "Now take gold," and you will think it is gold. Just like magician do. Hṛdayānanda: Hypnotist. Prabhupāda: Hypnotist. They create heaps of money, the magician, I have seen it, all false. Hṛdayānanda: Like in the *Bhāgavatam*, Arjuna said like money created by magic word. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Prāpti*-siddhi. Now we are flying by aeroplane. A yogi can fly without any instrument. As Durvāsā Muni, he went even Vaikuṇṭha-loka. Not Vaikuṇṭha-loka. Within this planet, there is one planet where, Śvetadvīpa, Lord Viṣṇu lives. He went there and saw Lord Viṣṇu personally to request him to save him. He refused, "No, I cannot. You go to Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, beg pardon of him. If he pardons, then you will be saved." So to a devotee, innocent devotee, he had to fall down on his lotus feet, "Please save me." So what is the power of yogi? Devotee: Is the pure devotee more merciful than Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Because Viṣṇu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, fell down, and "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaiṣṇava. When he begged, humble, "Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, you save me, I am in danger." "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Viṣṇu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Kṛṣṇa said, "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill." Therefore he taught him Bhagavad*-gītā, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gītā. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted to see them all killed because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time, Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says." Bali Mardana: You are more merciful than any of them, Prabhupāda. You have come to the western countries. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes, Vaiṣṇava is, if one man is real Vaiṣṇava. Just like see Jesus Christ. It is said that he took everyone's sins and he was crucified. So how much merciful he is, just see. But these rascals have taken, that "Let us go on committing sinful activities, and Christ has taken contract. He will suffer. And we shall do this." Such rascals. You see. They say that "Our Christian religion is so good that even we commit sinful acts, Christ will suffer, we shall not suffer." Just see. Bali Mardana: I was reading yesterday in the Newsweek that now the priests, they are dating with women and having sex. Prabhupāda: They must have because they have no spiritual knowledge. Anyone who is not spiritually advanced, he cannot avoid the sex. *Hṛdayānanda: You said yesterday, adānta*-gobhiḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big yogis, they fell victim to sex. Viśvāmitra Muni, many other instances! Saubhari, Saubhari Muni. He was meditating within the water, and some fish just, what is called, licked up, his gender. Bali Mardana: Copulating. *Prabhupāda: Copulating, yes. And he felt sex desire, that itching sensation. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha*-duḥkham. Kaṇḍūyanam means itching. It is actually itching. The śāstra says it is kaṇḍūyanam. Kaṇḍūyanam means itching, the scratching, the itching. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Devotee: Our scientist. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Only one scientist. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā [SB 1.5.22]. Feeling all right? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. (indistinct) (pause) [break] Yes. I wanted to know the... So there are five kinds of air, material air, and the spirit soul is floating in the five kinds of air. I want to know these different functional activities of the five kinds of air. Prabhupāda: Yes, that also we admit. There are five kinds of air. Prāṇa, apāna, like that. There are... By the yogis, by breathing exercise, they control the five kinds of air. So that also we admit. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the scientists, they do not understand the five kinds of air. Prabhupāda: They do not know so many things. What they will understand? Because they do not understand, therefore it has to be rejected. They are fools. What do they understand? Superfluous. Simply they see something outward. Just like they see the tree, but what do they understand about the seed? What do they understand? The tree is coming from the seed, but what do they understand about the seed? They see the tree, that's all. Like a child sees the tree and "Oh, it is a big tree." But intelligent man sees the seed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also see that the original seed the embryo is, remains dormant. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. How it is made? That they do not know, how subtle things are being done... (aside) We can go this way. That is their ignorance. They do not know subtle things. Simply gross manifestation attracts their attention. That's all. Jaḍā*-dṛṣṭi. It is called jaḍā-dṛṣṭi, material vision. No sukhā-dṛṣṭi. Every, every field, they have no finer introspection. Simply gross. They deal with gross things. Just like the same example: Here is a tree, but it is a fact, this tree has grown from a small seed. So what do they know about the seed, how it is manufactured, how it has got the potency of bringing out such a big tree? Not only that, in that seed there will be millions of fruits, and each fruit there will be millions of seeds, and each seed contains again millions of trees. Where is your science? Where is that potency? Devotee: Is a seed conscious, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Everything is conscious. First of all, even gross manifestation we cannot understand, what to speak of consciousness. That is different thing. According to our philosophy, everything has got consciousness. Just like this tree has got consciousness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists also say that they have consciousness. Prabhupāda: But this tree's consciousness and my consciousness is different. My consciousness is developed. If you pinch on my body, my consciousness will be immediately protesting. But you cut, it will not protest. So consciousness is different. So there is nothing which has no consciousness, but it is a question of degree. It is a question of degree. The more the consciousness is covered, it is called material. The more the consciousness is developed, it is called spiritual. That is the difference between matter and spirit. *Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, that verse in the Gītā, that nityaḥ sarva*-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ. That verse in the Bhagavad-gītā that living beings are everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Yes, sarva*-ga. Acalo 'yaṁ sthāṇur sarva-gaḥ. Nitya. Nityaḥ sthāṇur acalo 'yam. That is described. The seeds are everywhere. Just like they are trying to come out from this. You will find sometimes fracture, grass is coming. As soon as there is opportunity, they want to express the consciousness. Those who fall down... kṣīṇe puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti. They come with waters, rain water, and falls down on the ground and become grass. Then gradually, evolution. Hṛdayānanda: That's terrible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ā*-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino... How subtle laws are working, what do they know the scientists? Therefore their so-called knowledge is māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ, actual knowledge is taken away by māyā. And they are thinking, "I am very learned man, scholar." But actual knowledge is taken away. māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Why? Āsuri-bhāva. They won't accept God. Therefore they are all fools. In spite of all these degrees, they are all fools. Therefore they cannot explain everything very nicely. "In future we shall see." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that "We are beginning to learn more and more..." Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that you are fool. While you are in the process of learning, that means you are fool. Say directly that we are fool. That is gentlemanliness. You do not know; *still, you pose, "I am, we are scholar, we are scientist. Give us Nobel Prize." You see. This is going on. We don't want Nobel Prize. We are giving the topmost knowledge. We don't hanker after Nobel Prize. But they give false knowledge and hanker after Nobel Prize. Just see. Their real aim is how to get the Nobel Prize by cheating. That is their real aim. How an educated man, learned man will cheat? So therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that "This modern human society, or always, it is a society of the cheaters and the cheated." Somebody is cheating and somebody's cheated, and they have combined together to make a so*-called civilization. *Karandhara: Prabhupāda, you know the scientist you quoted in Easy Journey? You quoted an article from the newspaper in Easy Journey about the two scientists who were studying anti*-matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Well, about a year ago another scientist came forward, and he charged that those two scientists actually stole the knowledge from him. They were working with him, and they stole it to win Nobel Prize. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many scientists like that. Just like this Marconi, he stole the knowledge from Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose. You know that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have heard this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagadisha Candra... I was present. He said that "This man cheated me. I talked with him. Next morning he published the theory." Karandhara: About radio? Prabhupāda: No, newspaper. Because both of them were friends, scientists, they talked. And he took the clue, immediately published the theory. Bali Mardana: Which theory was that? Prabhupāda: That Marconi wireless. Bali Mardana: Wireless, radio. *Prabhupāda: Yes, radio. That was Jagadisha Candra Bose's discovery. But the government will not give the credit to the Indians. Because Jagadisha Candra Bose happened to be Indian. These Britishers they are so much envious. Therefore they will never admit that Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. They bring all within the Christian period. That is their rascaldom. *Jayādvaita: We went to a college and gave a class last week where the professor was saying that the Bhagavad*-gītā is only two thousand years old, like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will never accept it. *Yaśomatīnandana: One stupid guy was saying that there is some quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā from Book of John. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another rascaldom. Tava cārjuna. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about the heart transplant? The spirit soul is within the heart, but when the... in the medical science nowadays, the old heart can be replaced by a new one. So what happens with the spirit soul with the old one? Prabhupāda: But that does not mean that new ones will increase their duration of life. That is our challenge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the personality is changed? Prabhupāda: No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why not? Prabhupāda: Why changed? Suppose if I sit from this chair to this chair, why I am changed? I can change my seat. It does not mean that I am changed. Karandhara: Change the heart also. The heart can change. Prabhupāda: The heart is seat, sitting place. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the new heart had spirit soul from the new one. Prabhupāda: Spirit soul, new or old there is. But if you can prove by changing the heart you can increase the duration of life, then you can catch the spirit soul. Karandhara: That they're not able to do. Prabhupāda: That is their nonsense. Bali Mardana: None of them have lived very long. *Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be. Because by karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1], by superior arrangement, karmaṇā, you have got this body. So you have to live within this body certain age. So if you change the body, new, that doesn't mean you prolong your life. That is not possible. It is the duration of life, that is considered. They are thinking by changing the heart they will increase the duration of life. That is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is some sort of artificial transmigration? *Prabhupāda: Yes, like that. That transmigration taken... That is already explained in Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like a baby becomes a child, child becomes boy, boy becomes youth, like that. Transmigration it is going on continually. This is another type of transmigration. So it is a fact that by changing the heart the duration is not...? Bali Mardana: No, most of them, they have lived, a very short times. But still is it a fact that the soul is transplanted from one body to another body? Prabhupāda: That can be done, yes. Sometimes yogis, they can perform that better body, he transfers himself into that body. Just Śaṅkarācārya did, yes. Karandhara: What they do, though, they wait till someone's dying or dead, and immediately after they die, they take the heart. From somebody who had the weak heart they transplant, change the heart. Prabhupāda: So what...? There is no benefit. Karandhara: But that does not mean that the soul from the old heart, or the new heart is being changed into the new body. Bali Mardana: The soul has already left. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the soul is individual. As I told yesterday that dead body has got the ingredients to produce life. But that the man who has left his body, you cannot produce him. That is the proof of individuality. That is the proof of individuality. Huh? Bali Mardana: I was saying that they transplant the heart... After the first man, his soul has already gone, then they take his heart and put it into the other man, who has a weak heart. So all it means is that the soul is going from one heart to another heart, not that the soul, that they are taking the soul with it when they put the heart in. Prabhupāda: He is destined to live in that body for a certain years. So you may change whatever you like. Karandhara: The heart is just an instrument in the machine. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a place. Bali Mardana: Now it's very clear. [break] *Prabhupāda: Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. There is superior overlooking. That is Kṛṣṇa, anumantā, upadraṣṭā. Upadraṣṭā anumantā. Karandhara: One man, Dr. Wyberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying, "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much... *Prabhupāda: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45]. Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only aim. Yan maithunādi. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing. The position of the sex, the... How nasty it is! Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasa-tīrtham. Vāyasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy... [break] gṛham andha-kūpam, ātma-pātam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhāgavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. Therefore in the Vedic system first brahmacārī, become brahmacārī. Learn how to avoid sex, celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then how to continue the species? Prabhupāda: Why you will continue? You finish it, this condemned world, where you are simply suffering. Why should you continue it? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: No, no, laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise laws of nature is teaching you how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Māyā is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say, "No, it is good." Yan maithunādi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position. *Devotee: You give the analogy in the Bhagavad*-gītā that it's like pouring gas onto a fire you're trying to put out. Hṛdayānanda: He said like putting gas on the fire. Prabhupāda: Ah. So increase the fire. Yes. But because we have got this body, we have to utilize it to make the best use of a bad bargain. Therefore marriage is allowed, gṛhastha life is allowed, not for increasing sex life, but to finish it as soon as possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even in the very lower forms of life, there are some species, they reproduce without any sex? It's called asexual reproduction. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Oh yes. These bugs, bedbugs, they produce by this blood. You kill... Svarūpa Dāmodara: We cannot check reproduction. Prabhupāda: No, how can you check? There are so many living entities. They have come to this material world to enjoy. So the reproduction must go on. Just like you cannot stop the jail. You come out, but another is ready to enter it. That is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is within this material platform that we develop the consciousness by which... Prabhupāda: That was answered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. One of His devotee, Vāsudeva Datta, he said, "Sir, You have come. You take all the living entities of this universe and release them from this life. And if You think that they are so sinful, they cannot be, then give their all sins to me. But You take them." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Suppose if I take this universe, the all living entities, do you think the business will be finished? This universe is just like a mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds." (laughs) So from the bag of mustard seeds, if you take one mustard seed, what is the loss there? So this cannot be stopped. So anantāya kalpate. There are so many, unlimited number of living entities. So this will go on. Yaśomatīnandana: You said in the *Bhāgavatam* that the material world is like a correction house for the living entity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So everybody should develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (Śrīla Prabhupāda gets into car) Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only remedy. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] And this advancement of material civilization means entrapping the entrapped. The living entity is already entrapped, and he is allured by farther entrapment. Jaḍa*-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. Jaḍa-vidyā, material advancement of civilization, means expanding the influence of māyā. Why? Now anitya saṁsāra, cannot live here. You have to give up this place. But still, you are thinking to make it a permanent settlement. That is not possible. Everyone knows. He will not be allowed to stay. But still insisting, gorgeous arrangement, how we can be, how we can become immortal. The scientists bluffing, "Yes, you will become immortal. We are finding out the means." But he will die. That means he is ass. He is allured by these false words. Therefore he is ass. Jībake karaye gādhā. This is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song. Anitya saṁsāra, this temporary world, he is attracted by this temporary. He cannot live here, he cannot stay here, he cannot enjoy here. That's a fact. But he is being allured. That means he is becoming more and more ass. Ass because they are believing still, "No, by scientific method, we shall do that, we shall do that. We shall cure all diseases. We shall live for good. There will be no more death. And we are happy." That means you are becoming... This material advancement of knowledge means you are becoming more and more asses. [break] (end) Morning Walk -- December 3, 1973, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: What is the scientific question? Muḍhāḥ. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When they say about the, how one starts talking about the origin of life, they say that one should first of all consider how the earth was formed, how this planet earth where we live, how it was formed, what is the origin of the earth. Prabhupāda: Earth. Origin of earth is life. It is very simple to understand. Just like your body. Your body is... Or why your body? Take the tree. Tree is matter, it is earth. Wherefrom the big tree comes? From the life within the seed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they say that about 4.5 billion years ago this earth condensed in such a form, but before that there was no living entity because this earth was not suitable for it. Prabhupāda: That is rascal. No, no. You have got history for billions of years? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that history? We have got history that Brahmā was the first creation, and from Brahmā... Brahmā created this universe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that before, it was all gaseous dust particles and some gaseous materials which were floating and in due course it condensed and then it formed this... Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the gas came? That they do not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they say it was just floating. *Prabhupāda: Floating where. Wherefrom the sky came? They are all nonsense. Simply speculating and consuming cheap money from the government. That's all. This is their business. The government is exacting taxes from the hard*-working men, and these rascals are devouring this money. That's all. And making theories. That's all. Hṛdayānanda: There was one big scandal where they found out all the scientists were just taking money. Even by material standards it was unnecessary. It was a very big scandal. Prabhupāda: It must be they are scandals. They are after money. That's all. Not after knowledge. And what knowledge they have got? Simply speculating and befooling other fools. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. This is their business. One blind man is befooling other blind men. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very much convinced that this earth was gaseous. So there was no life at the beginning. Prabhupāda: That may be. That may be that. But wherefrom the gas came? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was just existing. *Prabhupāda: Bhinnā prakṛtiḥ. The answer is given. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhiḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Vāyu, vāyu gas, it came from Kṛṣṇa. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vāyu. Vāyu is gas, is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Air. Prabhupāda: And finer than the vāyu is the ether, the sky. Finer than the sky is the mind. Finer than the mind is the intelligence, and finer than the intelligence is the soul. So they do not know this. They capture only middle thing, vāyu. Wherefrom the vāyu came? Wherefrom the gas came? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That part remains unanswered. That part cannot be answered. Prabhupāda: But we answer, we answer. We have got the knowledge. The gas came from ether, and ether came from mind, and mind came from intelligence, and intelligence came from the soul. Hṛdayānanda: They will say you cannot prove that. Prabhupāda: Yes, we can prove that. Hṛdayānanda: How will you prove it? Prabhupāda: You see still, gases, I mean to say, cloud is forming in the sky. But you have no eyes to see it. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre*-biotic-chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution. Prabhupāda: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced... Just like in your body, in my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming? Daily, enzymes, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are saying that once the seed of life, that is, the cells, the living cells, are built, then it continues automatically. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but who gives the seed? That is answered in Bhagavad*-gītā. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He gives the seeds, and He is life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the scientists are now trying to make the seed. Prabhupāda: Then kick on their face with boot. With boot, rascal. You are trying. That is rascaldom. We protest against this. "We are trying." What is this nonsense, trying? Do it immediately. Then we shall accept. Trying, everyone is trying. Just like a child is trying to build a house with this sand. So is that very nice proposal, that here will be house? That is childish. Then you accept that you are child in the field of knowledge. Don't pose yourself that you know everything, or your knowledge is everything. That is our protest. "We are trying." Trying, everyone is trying. What is the difference between the scientists and ordinary man? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that they are coming very close. Prabhupāda: Oh! That is also another foolishness. That is called will o' the wisp. The ass. Ass is trying to get the grass, and the washerman is showing only, and the ass is advancing, the grass is advancing. (laughter) You see. This is their thing. Dr. Wolfe: But in all humility, Śrīla Prabhupāda, supposing that they would succeed in actually creating the living cell artificially, what would we say? Prabhupāda: What is the credit there? It is already there. So what credit he can get? Karandhara: Best they just imitated what has already happened. Prabhupāda: Imitated. Just like, that I explained also. The example is that when an imitation barking is there, people go and purchase ticket. And when real barking is there, nobody cares. This is their business. They are so fool that their government is purchasing the ticket, and they're hearing the imitation barking. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But once they are successful they are going to make super beings they are called super beings, superhuman beings, super animals. *Prabhupāda: But they cannot create even an ant, and now they are going to make super beings. This is another foolishness. They cannot create even an ant, moving ant, and they're going to make super being. Just see. And we have to believe them. (laughter) We are not so fools. Your so*-called scientists may be fools, but we are not so fools. Yaśomatīnandana: You give the example of a potter who was dreaming... Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, yes, That's it. A potter. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This idea Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the chemical evolution, this idea came from, I think, in 1920 by a Russian scientist. He is a biologist. His name is Oparin. So he demonstrated that before biological evolution the atmosphere of the earth should be, he called, very much reducing. Reducing, that means it must be mostly full of hydrogens, no oxygen, very little oxygen, but mostly hydrogen. Then in due course because of the reaction in these hydrogen compounds and the radiation from the sunlight, then these compounds form into different chemicals which are... Prabhupāda: That is a side study. But there was hydrogen. Wherefrom the hydrogen came? The scientists, simply they study in the middle. But they do not know what is the origin. Just like here is one aeroplane is coming, and you can say, "All of a sudden a light came out of the sea." Is that the study of this aeroplane? If we... the foolish person will see, "All of a sudden, in the sea there was a light." Is that scientific study? So your study is like that. "There was this, and all of a sudden, by chance..." That's it. That is not scientific study. We have to find out the original cause. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in due course if they create these amino acids, there are 20 amino acids which are necessary for the body, for the material body. Prabhupāda: But it is already created. What is your credit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want to do it themselves. Prabhupāda: You may do, but already... Just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there. Yaśomatīnandana: The big, big soap factory. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy. Karandhara: When they discover a natural law, they name it after themselves, like "Newton's law." (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is already there, already there, and the rascal wants to take credit. Yaśomatīnandana: They adjust a little bit and they say that they have conquered... Prabhupāda: No adjustment. That is another foolishness. You cannot adjust. Even you cannot adjust a moment of nature's law. You cannot adjust. Yaśomatīnandana: You just discover it. Prabhupāda: Yes. No discovery. You do not know, arrangement. This is already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Practically they are fighting against the laws of nature, but sometimes they find pleasure in doing this. *Prabhupāda: That is childish. Just like they build with the sand palatial building, the children, and they take pleasure in it. That's all. That is children's pleasure. That is not sane man's pleasure. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. Māyā-sukhāya. This pleasure is māyā, and they are making humbug. Therefore they are vimūḍhān, vimūḍhān, all foolish men. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. The materialists, they have created a standard of happiness. That is māyā. That is not happiness. But for that māyā happiness, false happiness, they have beget a gorgeous arrangement. That's all. Therefore they are vimūḍhān. They are so vimūḍhān, so foolish. Now suppose they have created this nice comfortable civilization, but they have not created the situation that they will be able to enjoy it. At any moment they will be kicked out, "Get out! Finished. All finished." So where is that guarantee that you will be able to enjoy this? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why the scientists are saying that God didn't give us everything so that we can make very happy. Prabhupāda: Then God is there. Accept. Then why do you say there is no God? Then God is life. Then everything comes from life. You have to accept. That is our proposal. If they accept that "God has not given us the capacity," then they are intelligent. They are accepting God. Karandhara: Well, they say, "God hasn't given us everything because we are not able to live forever here." Prabhupāda: Why? That means God is controller. You are controlled. You admit this. Yaśomatīnandana: If these people are allowed to live forever then they will make this place more than a hell, worse than hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) God has given them everything actually, to live peacefully and try to understand God, but that they will not do. They will do something to try to forget God. That is their aim. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, is it true that if a person is very sinful, he reduces some years from his life? If a person is very, very sinful, extremely sinful, then he reduces some... Prabhupāda: Reduce or increase, what is the profit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We see the practical example. If you are alcoholic... *Prabhupāda: Even if you reduce or increase, suppose you are to live for hundred years, if you make it hundred and ten, so what is your profit? And if you are to live for hundred years, reduce time ten years, so what is the profit? You cannot live here, that is a fact, reduce or increase. This is all nonsense. What is increase? The trees, they have more longer period, increased the period, of life. Is, that kind of living is very profitable? What for increasing? To suffering? Your life is already suffering. Why you are covering this body? You cannot stand here, open body. That is suffering. You are trying to save yourself from the suffering. This is life, struggle for existence. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. Simply struggle. So if you increase your life for struggling again, then what is the profit? This is... The rascals, they do not understand. Even if you increase, what profit you will get? Your life is all suffering. So the foolish persons, they cannot understand. The real problem is how to stop your suffering, reduce or increase, it doesn't matter. But that you cannot do. You'll have to die. This is your suffering. Nobody wants to die. You have to become old man. Suppose an old man, suffering from so many diseases, and he increases his life. What is the profit there? Yaśomatīnandana: That is what they do by heart transplant. Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. Stop death; then it is an achievement. That's all. Stop disease, that is achievement. But that you cannot do. What is the profit reducing, and increasing or decreasing? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. I am saying therefore, disease, not "This disease" or "That disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that "Here is a chemical composition; *when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle we increase. That's all. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We shall come down? The water is coming or...? Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupāda. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are very big. Prabhupāda: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist? Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye. Prabhupāda: Ah, take from here red color. Yes, they can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will try to make more, reduce the scarcity. Prabhupāda: Where is more? Now, because the petrol stock is decreasing, they are disturbed, increase it, increase it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are trying to make synthetic... *Prabhupāda: Again "trying," the same disease, "trying." (laughter) Same disease. Again "trying." That is called... That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. They are simply struggle, struggling with the mind. That is their business. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Because he is in this prakṛti, under the control of the material nature, prakṛti-sthāni-simply a struggle. And mental concoction: "Now we shall do it. Now we are trying. In future it will be done." Manaḥ. This is mind, mental concoction. Prakṛti is doing their own duty, by nature's law. Now, by nature's law, the winter season is coming. Stop it. Stop it. Make it summer season. What you can do? Why so many cloths are required? Turn it into summer. You cannot do anything. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... [Bg. 3.27]. The prakṛti is going on, doing its own duty. You cannot check. Now the sun is rising. Now make it dark. Or in the darkness, ask the sun, "Get up." Where is your power? And still you are thinking, that "We are scientists. We are advancing." All foolishness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. What you can do? You cannot even know how many stars and planets are there. Still unknown. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they say in our universe there are about ten to the eleventh stars. They can count approximately. They say there are about 100 billion stars. Prabhupāda: Count the sand grains, count the sand grains. Karandhara: They would make a rough estimate. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you make a fool estimate, then still, you are nothing in the face of the creator. Even if you can count. Yaśomatīnandana: They are so stupid Prabhupāda that they do not recognize that the most important things in life is birth, death, old age and disease. And if they really want to conquer the nature, they should try to conquer birth, death, old age and disease. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Yaśomatīnandana: Duratyayā, very hard to overcome. Prabhupāda: It is not possible. Hṛdayānanda: They have a whole new department called gerontology to stop death. In one article they had about twenty different methods, and they said all of them, none of them have succeeded yet. But they were very confident. Yaśomatīnandana: Even for them there is some medicine in the *Vedas*. If they go to heavenly planets they will be able to live longer. They are so stupid, śūdra class, that they can't. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yaśomatīnandana: Even if they go to heavenly planets by following *Vedas*, still they will be able to live longer, but by their mundane efforts they will not be able to increase... Prabhupāda: No, nobody... In the material world there is no question of living forever. That is not possible. That is in the spiritual world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the scientists explain why there are so many varieties of living entities, they have an explanation. Prabhupāda: What is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, "At the time of evolution, the cells, the genes, sometimes..." Normally the gene is perfectly copied for the next generation, but sometimes there is a mistake in copying. Just like in the printing press sometimes we do some mistakes. Just like that, there are some mistakes along the path of evolution. So those mistakes, sometimes they just, according to the circumstances, they can stand, and they form a different living entity because of the difference of the genes. *Prabhupāda: But the mistake is continuing forever, because you'll find the varieties of living entities ever*-existing. Therefore the mistake is permanent. So when it is permanent, it is not mistake. It is intelligence. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say if there is no mistake, there will be only one living entity in the whole universe. Prabhupāda: Why? Because you have got different mind, therefore you create different situation. Just like we are walking here. Not that everyone is coming to join us. Because they have got different mentality. They want to sleep. We want to rise early in the morning. Why this difference? Śrutaśrava: It is a great mistake they're making. Prabhupāda: It is not mistake. It is your desire. And exactly according to the desire, you get a body. It is not mistake. No. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, whatever you think, exactly nature will give you a similar body. That's all. That is not in your hand. That is in the nature's hand. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But scientifically it can be proved that there is a mistake. *Prabhupāda: Then that is your mistake. In the laws of nature there is no mistake. There is no mistake. Your mistake. Just like in the railway carriage there is first-class, second-class, third-class. So you have purchased third-class ticket. By mistake, you can go to the first-class and just give him, but you will not be allowed to stay there. So it is your mistake. But these first-class, second-class, third..., that is not a mistake. That is arrangement. Similarly, these varieties... God is so clever that He knows that so many mistakes can be done, and so many varieties are there. As you commit mistake, you enter... "You come here. It is ready." And it is very exact mathematically calculated. Because the nature is working in three modes, so you mix up these three modes, it becomes three into three equal nine, and again you multiply nine into nine, equal to eighty-one. Again eighty*-one into eighty-one. So many varieties come. Therefore generally it is taken, 84 million varieties. 8, 400,000. That is already there. Just like government creates a prison house. Although the city is not constructed, but they construct a prison house. Why? The government knows that "There are so many rascals. They will be criminals, they must come here." So it is not government mistakes. Your mistake. You become criminal and come here. It is your mistake. Why should you be criminal? That is your mistake. Yaśomatīnandana: And also, if nature made a mistake, then how could nature supply the necessities of all the living entities? After all... *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no mistake. Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. It is said, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram. Under the supervision of Kṛṣṇa, God, nature is working. How there can be mistake? In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā [Bs. 5.44]. This nature is working just like shadow. Real direction is from God. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā. By His will, nature is working. So how He can be mistaken? Nature is working under the will of God; so how there can be mistake in the part of God? There is no mistake. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They use these terms to explain their proposed theory. This terminology. Prabhupāda: Which terminology? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like "mistake" and all these things. Prabhupāda: Mistake, There cannot be... That is the difference between God and ourself. We are living entity, God is also living entity. But He has no four defects. We have got four defects. We commit mistake, we are illusioned, our senses are imperfect, and we cheat. God does not do all these things. That is the difference between God and ourselves. He does not commit mistake. He is not illusioned. He does not cheat, and His senses are perfect. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in technological enlargement or prolongation of our senses, we are also defective, of course. Prabhupāda: Because we are defective. This material existence means defective existence. This defection not there. Dr. Wolfe: All the microscopes, and electric things, all these things, they are also defective. Prabhupāda: Because it is made by the imperfect senses. So it must be defective. If you construct something with your defective knowledge, then it must be defective. Karandhara: Even if they make a perfect microscope they still have to look at it through their defective eyes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. This is going on. Therefore whatever they are saying, they are all defective. Yes. That is our conclusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it is just like playing with fire. Prabhupāda: Mūḍha mūḍha mūḍha mūḍha. Defective means mūḍha. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they seem to be quite satisfied. Prabhupāda: That, ass is also satisfied. By unnecessarily carrying the load of the washerman, he is satisfied. Everyone is satisfied. Even the worms of the stool, he is satisfied. (laughs) That is nature's law. He is satisfied. So this satisfaction Karandhara: The saying is "Even the pauper is proud of his penny." Prabhupāda: Yes. He is also... You see... In Vṛndāvana I showed you? The dogs were starving, but as soon as he gets another female dog, oh, he is satisfied. To have sex. Oh. You see. So is that satisfaction? He is starving. The belly has gone down, and still, he is satisfied with sex. You see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is illusion. Actually, he is not satisfied. Karandhara: You once gave the example, Prabhupāda of the drunkards in New York. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: If they just get a bottle of wine they are satisfied even though they are freezing and starving and have no place to stay. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are satisfied. Real satisfaction will prevail when one knows God. That is real satisfaction. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. A devotee will see how by God's design the sea is working, how the sky is staying, how the sun is rising. He is satisfied, "Oh, how my Lord is great, how He has arranged." That is satisfaction Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, the living entities, the jīvātmā within the..., and the Paramātmā within, why the living entities suffering even the Paramātmā is directing the living entity within? Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Government is always with you, but why you are suffering, and why one is enjoying? Government is not partial. You have created your situation to suffer. That's all. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." But you will not do. You must suffer. Suffering is there. As soon as you are disobedient to God, immediately suffering begins. That is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Now you give up all this nonsense business. Surrender to Me. I will give you all protection." That you will not do. Then you must suffer. That is the song: Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles Svarūpa Dāmodara: So at some stage during the lifetime, especially in the human form of life... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...one should come to the senses... Prabhupāda: That is required. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...that they are suffering. *Prabhupāda: Not to speak like mad man. That you are scientists, you are, "We shall solve all the questions." This nonsense thing should stop. They should come to God and understand what God says. Then their life is successful. God Himself is speaking in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Just try to understand. This is not meant for the dogs and cats; *this is meant for persons like Arjuna. Because Bhagavad-gītā was taught to Arjuna*-for enlightened, ah, topmost class of men. They'll understand. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. So be yourself amongst the topmost intelligent class of men and try to understand Bhagavad-gītā. Then you'll be happy. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, we should go this way. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you want to remain unhappy by your whims, then what... God cannot help you. But you have got the intelli..., independence. Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, if some people say, "Well, I have no free will," that means that they are actually lazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got free will, but must utilize it properly. That is free will. Free will means to utilize it properly. That is free will. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So people... Sometimes Kṛṣṇa interferes in the free will? Prabhupāda: Ah? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Our free will. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: God interferes. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa's special favor. Because by your free will you are going to hell. If Kṛṣṇa interferes, that is Kṛṣṇa's special favor. Just like a child is going to touch fire by free will, and father, "Eh, don't do it." That is his special favor. Devotee: Jaya. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it's called causeless mercy. Prabhupāda: Ah? Causeless mercy. His mercy is already there, but we are denying the mercy. That is the defect of material existence. Yaśomatīnandana: Spiritual master is the mercy of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. God is distributing His mercy from within and from without. Without mercy is the spiritual master. Without means externally, just in front of you. *Devotee: Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā... Prabhupāda: Ahhh! *Devotee: ...bhakta*-gaṇe. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Impersonalist boys... [break] ...who are... [break] Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is life cannot be proved by experiments. So it is not necessary to talk about life now. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Grapes are sour. (devotees laugh) The jackal's philosophy. The jackal came in the orchard of grapes and tried to take some grapes. He jumped many times, and when he failed, "Oh, there is no necessity, it is sour." It is jackal's philosophy. Sly fox. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that ultimately there may be no difference... Prabhupāda: It is Māyāvāda, Māyāvāda. Māyāvāda says brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. This world is false. [break] ...so what... [break] ...prepared it, so he is the cause of this construction of the bench. How can you say there is no cause? Hṛdayānanda: Then they would say... Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: They would say, "If everything has a cause..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: "...then God also must have a cause." Prabhupāda: No, that is God, which has no cause. That is our definition. Everything has cause, but when it comes to a point where there is no more cause, He is cause and effect Himself, then that is God. Devotee (1): So then sometimes they say, "Well, what's to say there will ever be original cause?" Prabhupāda: Ah? [break] ...that is original cause. We... [break] ...anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. That is actual element, Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): They would say that's impossible. *Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. There is such a thing. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam. That is Vedic information. Therefore tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. [break] Why not? Just like we can see materially that sunshine, for millions and millions of years it is shiny, still it is the same temperature. Devotee (1): But it's diminishing. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee: The volume of the sun is diminishing. Prabhupāda: No, because it is material. But we can understand that there... Of course, that is no... That touchstone. The touchstone can create gold. So unlimitedly it can create gold. Touchstone. So, even in material experience we'll find there is certain things which creates unlimitedly, still it remains. Devotee (2): There's a starfish. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): There is a fish called the starfish. It has five arms, and if it loses one arm it will grow that arm back, or that arm will grow back four other arms. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Karandhara: That's just material generation. Prabhupāda: No, no. I have already said there is an idea that even in the insignificant material element we find this, that one is lost, another's grown. [break] So when the Supreme Absolute Truth is there, how much potency? That is explained in the *Vedas*. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. This is the idea of the Absolute. You take the complete from the complete, still it is complete. Yaśomatīnandana: They are so foolish that they have accepted an entity called infinity for the material purposes, from mathematics and everything, and they know that they are limited, but they will not accept that that can be a living entity which is infinite. They can accept that there's a new number called infinity, but they can't understand that there can be a living entity which is infinite too. Prabhupāda: Yes. That number is matter. Living entity is always superior. So if in the inferior quality, matter, it is possible, how much it is possible in the superior quality. Yaśomatīnandana: And they also admit that they're limited, they also admit that they are fallible, so they also... Prabhupāda: Because it is matter, it is limited, always limited. Although it appears unlimited. Karandhara: They say they're limited but their process is not. Prabhupāda: Ah? Karandhara: They say their process, the scientific process, is not limited. Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. If you are limited, how you can manufacture process... [break] ... is bogus. Karandhara: They don't say... They say they haven't manufactured it. They've just discovered it. Prabhupāda: No, if you are limited, how can you discover the unlimited? Then what is the meaning of limited? You cannot discover... Devotee (2): But if I am limited jīva, I can discover Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Ah? No, you do not discover. Yaśomatīnandana: It's there in... Prabhupāda: But you know from higher authority. You cannot discover it. Devotee (2): That's right. [break] Also... [break] ...does it not? Prabhupāda: This is conservation. Devotee (2): Actually the material world is never annihilated. Prabhupāda: Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. Devotee (2): Doesn't it rest in Viṣṇu's body? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): When the material world is annihilated, it still is there, is it not? *Hṛdayānanda: That's in the Bhagavad*-gītā, the five elements are all eternal... Yaśomatīnandana: I understand that the process is eternal, Prabhupāda said. Devotee (2): No, no, no, the five elements are eternal. Yaśomatīnandana: ...each universe... Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee (2): The five elements are eternal. Prabhupāda: Eternal, but it is manifested and not manifested. Just like conservation of energy. That is the... Energy is manifested, sometimes not manifested. [break] But nonmanifested does not mean that... [break] ...energy. Karandhara: But the definition of the Absolute Truth is inconceivable, so it must violate the logic. Prabhupāda: Ah? Karandhara: Their logic... Prabhupāda: No, it's inconceivable by them, not by us. Therefore we call them fools. It is not inconceivable by us. But so you know the Truth from the Truth, Absolute Truth. A layman or a foolish boy does not know where..., which side the sun will rise. His father can say, "This side it will rise." That is the difference. Because he knows how to suggest which side, because there is reddish, how do you say? Illumination. He knows that "This side it will rise," by the symptom. Both of them, the foolish man and the intelligent man, just at present do not see that where is the sun. But the intelligent man knows "Here is the sun," although the sun is not visible both to the intelligent and foolish man. That intelligence means he knows how to find out where is sun. That is intelligence. And this is not discovery. I am intelligent speaking "This side is sun." It is not my discovery. I have heard from authority that from the eastern direction the sun rises, so I know it. Yaśomatīnandana: They're so stupid they name it Absolute Truth, but still they try to make their own theories about the Absolute Truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yaśomatīnandana: In the Vedic literatures it is stated dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. They can't even understand a simple thing. *Prabhupāda: No. dharma means the codes, the laws of God. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up your nonsense manufactured religion. Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." Who will deny? Any religious person will accept it. Who will deny it? This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So who will deny? Who is that man who will deny this statement, that one has to surrender to the Supreme? Who will deny it? Therefore it is dharma. You have to submit, just like the government. The government is the supreme, who will deny? Who will deny? Hṛdayānanda: Only the criminal. Prabhupāda: Only the criminal. And he'll be punished, that's all. The result, he'll be punished. Beaten with the shoes of policeman, that's all. Karandhara: Some people get away with it. Prabhupāda: For some time he'll get away. You can get away from the police custody, but you cannot get away from māyā's custody. That is not possible. Karandhara: But because in all material examples there are exceptions, they say. In all material examples there are exceptions, so they try to find that exception. *Prabhupāda: Many exceptions are there, mām eva ye prapadyante. Those who are devotee, they are not under māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you do not violate the laws of God... [break] ...there is no question of being... [break]...by māyā. If you surrender... [break] ...ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. [break] ...if the government protects everyone who is surrendered to the laws of the God, government. The government will give all protection. If he is a law-abiding citizen, he must be given protection, all protection. Hṛdayānanda: You're too intelligent for the atheists, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: You're too intelligent for the atheists. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Atheist means criminal, they're punishable, that's all. And the more people becoming godless, they're being punished by nature. Devotee (2): Actually by the law of conservation of energy reincarnation can be explained. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): By their own law. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Why shouldn't consciousness also be conserved? Devotee (2): Consciousness is also energy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Energy of the soul. As soon as the soul is passed from the body, there is no more consciousness. It is very easy to understand. They cannot explain why the consciousness stops. They cannot explain. But that is the symptom. Yena sarvam idam, avināśi tu tad viddhi..., yena sarvam idam, in the Bhagavad*-gītā. That thing which is spreading the energy all over the body, that is eternal. Now, what is that thing which is spreading the consciousness? It is the soul. So long the soul is there, you have got consciousness, otherwise there is no consciousness. Very plain word. Avināśi tu tad viddhi. Just try to understand that thing which is spreading consciousness all over the body. Just like a small grain of poison. As soon as you take it, immediately it will spread all over the blood. Even a small grain. And then how much powerful is that spiritual spark? Devotee (2): So the grain is carried by the blood. What is the spiritual spark carried by? Prabhupāda: Spiritual spark is not carried by, but he resides within the body. He is carried by his own karma, subtle, subtle desire is carried. Everyone is carried by his desire. Why did I come here, in America? I have got a desire to preach; therefore I've come. Otherwise I had no business to come here. So desire. So desire carries you. That is, the rascals, they do not know. Desire is there, they cannot see, but desire is there. Mind is there, intelligence is there; they cannot see. That is carried. The example is given, just like the aroma of a flower is being carried by the air. And nobody can see, but one can feel, "Oh, it is very good, nice aroma. Wherefrom it is coming?" But he has no eyes to see either the aroma or the air. Similarly, the soul after destruction of this body is being carried by the desire, but they have no eyes to see what is that desire, what is that soul, what is that intelligence. They are saying, "There is no soul." This is mostly stupidity. Hṛdayānanda: So... Prabhupāda: Simply stupids. Hṛdayānanda: So if someone is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then nothing can be hidden from him. Prabhupāda: Ah? Hṛdayānanda: If someone is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then... *Prabhupāda: Yes, because he learned from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam, na jāyate na mriyate vā..., na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. So we are... Kṛṣṇa consciousness means you are taking what Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore... [break] And then you judge in your own way, you'll find, "Yes, it's all right." Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. At the present moment, because your, these blunt eyes cannot see the soul, you have to learn it by appreciation. Avagama. It is called avagama.(?) Appreciation. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that tad viddhi, that, that thing which is spreading consciousness, that is soul. Now you can perceive there must be something which is now absent, otherwise why there is no consciousness? Where is the difficulty? If you do not see, you can't understand it. Just like the same example, when good aroma is carried. So somebody says, "This good aroma is coming because the air passing through a flower garden, therefore this aroma." Now this is a fact, but you cannot see the aroma or the air. But you hear from an experienced man. That is the way of understanding which is beyond your sense perception. But these rascals, simply they are depending on their blunt senses, these stupids, so*-called scientists. Therefore they're stupids. They simply believe on their eyes. They do not know how much defective these eyes and senses are, incomplete. That they do not know. They believe on their defective senses. Akṣaja. Akṣaja, akṣ... Experiment. Everything experimented. Veda says don't try to explain which is beyond your sense. How you will explain? It is not possible. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. It is acintya, it is beyond your conception. Why you are wasting your time? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But a scientist will say that "I can show you what the aroma looks like." Prabhupāda: They cannot show you, that is another stupidity. (indistinct) anything. Who can deny that Kṛṣṇa says that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sar..., there is a thing within the body which is eternal? And what is that thing which is spreading consciousness? And you show what is that thing which is spreading consciousness. Then I shall accept you as scientist. Karandhara: They would say, "How can we believe Kṛṣṇa?" Prabhupāda: No, you don't believe, that here is a fact! That there is something within the body which is spreading consciousness. That is eternal. There's no question of believing. It is a fact. Now you show, what is that fact? Where is that fact? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say it's just biochemical reactions. Prabhupāda: Biochemical... You simply do it, rascal. You cannot do it. (Hṛdayānanda laughs) You rascal, simply speak, but you cannot do it. That is our contention. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. You speak something which is beyond your power. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda solves... Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is simply cheating people. And we, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we want to stop these cheating, any way... Karandhara: They'd say we also cannot prove the soul is eternal. Prabhupāda: No, there is proof. There is something. We accept it, but you don't accept it. There are so many things, there are so many things. You do not see, but still you accept it. Just like without father there cannot be son. Now you have not seen your father, but mother says, "Here is your father." You have to believe it. It is a fact. Karandhara: But they can experience being a father themselves. Prabhupāda: Ah? Ah? Karandhara: They can experience that, 'cause they can be a father themselves. Prabhupāda: They can be father themselves? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Without son how one becomes father? Karandhara: No, but they... That example falls within the range of their experience, because they can also be a father. Prabhupāda: No, not to your experience. But a superior experience, say mother. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not your experience. You cannot say by experience who is your father. Your mother can say. Karandhara: No, but the example that I have a father can be appreciated because I can also be a father. Prabhupāda: But therefore if that appreciation is there, that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena..., the consciousness is spreading from the soul, so you have to appreciate there must be something from which consciousness comes. That you cannot deny. Karandhara: They say it is biochemical development. Prabhupāda: No, but then you replace consciousness by a biochemical combination. That you cannot do. Devotee (2): When the baby is born dead. Karandhara: But just because they say, "Because we can't do it yet..." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You cannot do, therefore you are rascal. You're talking all nonsense. You cannot do it, how you speak? Karandhara: Up till two hundred years ago they weren't able to fly... Prabhupāda: Want two hundred..., no, we want immediately, we don't want blank check. (devotees laugh) Rascal blank check. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, we can go this way. Prabhupāda: Postdated blank check. (devotees laugh) We don't believe. We must have real cash. Devotee (2): And then they will admit actually that their senses are... Karandhara: No, then they'll want to see the soul... Devotee: ...are limited. Devotee: ...they want to see a soul as eternal. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Which way? Devotee: Go to one life to another life. Prabhupāda: Which way? Devotee: Which way? Devotee: This. Hṛdayānanda: Where is...? *Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, actually this knowledge is so absolute, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam. You can actually experience... Prabhupāda: Yeah. Yaśomatīnandana: ...just by taking bhakti you can see that your purification comes... Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśomatīnandana: ...and actually intelligence comes from Kṛṣṇa. So if actually one is sincere, then Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence that "Yes, actually there is a soul, and actually I'm the Supersoul." Karandhara: That intelligence is defective Prabhupāda: No, no, my senses are defective. But the source from which I know, that is not defective. I cannot experimentally know who is my father. But the source from whom I understand, that is perfection. Yaśomatīnandana: In other words they'll get confirmation within their heart. They'll be satisfied, that "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is God," if they are sincere. *Prabhupāda: Yeah. If they are sincere. That is the budha. Budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Others, rascals cannot (indistinct). Mūḍha narādhama. They cannot. Devotee (2): They'll say you're sincerely brainwashed. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): They'll say you're sincerely brainwashed. Prabhupāda: Brainwashed? Why? These are facts. Yaśomatīnandana: But we still have some basis... Prabhupāda: If you cannot reply, you're simply misrepresenting scientists. We say there must be something which is spreading consciousness. Now how can you deny it? It is not brainwash. There must be something. Now if you are scientist, you find out. Hṛdayānanda: That which is spreading consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that thing which is spreading consciousness? Hṛdayānanda: So if they say it is the chemical, but they can't do that, they can't... Prabhupāda: Yes, you put the chemicals. Just like I have sent my car, it is not running, so they know how it will run. They know. Therefore I say, "But if you do not know, you're speaking nonsense. You do not know anything." And as soon as you are captured, you say "Yes, in future I shall know." What is this? The same, postdated blank check, which has no value. Will the postdated check, will it be accepted by anyone? Suppose you give me a postdated check. If I'm paying, what is this nonsense? This is all nonsense. "Future." (devotees laugh) No future, sir. Immediately. Cash payment. Hṛdayānanda: So that's cheating. Prabhupāda: Ah. That is cheating. Karandhara: But they'll say, "But you also cannot show us." Prabhupāda: No, I can show you. I say, there must be something. There must be something. Karandhara: We say it's a spirit; they say... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be there, I say "something." You find out that something. I say something. I don't say spirit, matter or anything. Something. Karandhara: Yes, they say that they look... Prabhupāda: Ah, that is their cheating. Find out now, and I accept that they're scientists. Yes. Cash money, sir. Then I shall know that you are rich man. You want to cheat me with the paper? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they'll say that "We are doing research." Prabhupāda: That means that... Then don't talk that you are scientists. You are student. You are trying to learn. You're student. You cannot say that you are scientists. Hṛdayānanda: So regardless of our position, they are not qualified. Prabhupāda: Ah? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Their system is to remain a student and pose as teacher, their system. They're trying to learn it, and still they're posing as teacher. Teacher means one who knows. He does not know; still he poses in the post of a teacher. Hṛdayānanda: So the system cannot be good because it does not purify their character. They still cheat. Prabhupāda: No, they're cheating simply. Little knowledge, cheating. Little knowledge. Yaśomatīnandana: They're simply like neti neti. "Not this, not this." Prabhupāda: "Not this." Yes. By negation. Definition by negation. Not positive definition. They say "it is not this." But what it is they cannot say. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is their process. Hṛdayānanda: It is not God but... Prabhupāda: Ah. Karandhara: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah? Karandhara: Either they accept our evidence or... Prabhupāda: No, therefore they are fools. That is a fact. Any child can understand that... And even they're less than a child. If I say there is something, therefore there is consciousness, any boy can understand. But they cannot understand. Less than a boy. Karandhara: They say there's no proof that that something... Prabhupāda: That is the proof. That is the proof. Devotee (2): Yes, their own law of conservation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: No, I'm talking about the individuality... Prabhupāda: No, no. Individuality... There are so many proofs, there are so many proofs, how you can say it is not? Devotee (2): By their own laws. Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. It is different subject. That something is missing within the body, therefore it is dead. So what is your answer? We say something is missing. We shall decide what is that something later on. That something is missing. If you suggest that something is chemical combination, then you do it. Therefore do not know. I say something is missing. If you know, then you replace that something, then you'll know. Karandhara: What do we say that something is? Prabhupāda: No... That everyone, any layman can understand, that this dead body is unconscious because something is missing. Any layman can understand. If you know that, then you replace it. I don't say I know, but I say something is missing. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prabhupāda: You have to accept also that. But if you know that something, then you replace it. Otherwise you also do not know. Then why you are talking of big, big word? You do not know. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But something is missing. That is accepted by everyone. Bhakta Dāsa: (laughs) So we both don't know. Prabhupāda: Ah? No, I know better than you. Because you are a fool, I'm a fool, but you are a fool and still you are posing you know. That is the difference. Karandhara: They may say, "We don't know, but we're trying to find out." Prabhupāda: That also... Then why I shall give you better position? Karandhara: We are also trying to find out. Prabhupāda: Then why should I give you better position? You're on the same level with me. Why you are posing as "I am scientist"? You are a fool, you admit I am fool, you admit you are a fool. But why you are posing as scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they will say that they have a..., they are trying to find out experimental things. Prabhupāda: You have not found out, that's a fact. As I have not found, therefore you are equally fool like me. Don't pose yourself better than me. Karandhara: If we're both fools... Yaśomatīnandana: But at least we are accepting some authority which is supposedly very authorized by great saints, sages... Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: They have also great authorities. Prabhupāda: And all the authorities... No, therefore these persons who do not accept authority, they're rascal. Karandhara: They are accepting authorities. Prabhupāda: But they're accepting authority who is not authority. Devotee: They're fools. Devotee (4): Darwin, they're accepting Darwin as authority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: They say, "But why should we accept any one of your authorities?" Prabhupāda: No, then you come to argument, reason, then whether Darwin is authority or Kṛṣṇa is authority, we have to decide. Devotee: Jaya! Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: They accept like, "I have not seen President Nixon, but I accept because I read in the newspaper." So somebody says that, well, by following this bhakti you can see Kṛṣṇa, but they will not accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Why should they accept Kṛṣṇa as authority over Darwin authority? Prabhupāda: Ah? Because He's accepted by... Yaśomatīnandana: Great sages. Prabhupāda: ...great sages, saintly persons, scholars... Devotee (2): By many scientists. Prabhupāda: Then fool's paradise it is called... It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the only conclusion. Karandhara: That's what they say about us. Prabhupāda: Because this world is all full of fools, so it is very difficult to push on. That we know. Therefore we should not go to the mūḍhas. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Birds of a feather flock together. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Hṛdayānanda: So they can go to Darwin's planet, we'll go to Kṛṣṇa's planet. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Devotee: But how will we defeat them? Prabhupāda: Yānti bhūtejyā bhūtāni. Yaśomatīnandana: By giving them prasādam. Prabhupāda: Ah? Yaśomatīnandana: We'll defeat them by giving them prasādam, right, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: To cure their disease, you have to give them prasādam, and give them chance to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is valuable. Just like a man suffering from jaundice, he sees everything yellow, and if you say, "No, it is not yellow. White" "No, I see yellow." What can be done, then the medicine has to be given. He'll never say it is white. He'll say it is yellow, because he is suffering. You have to cure. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness method is curing the disease of jaundice. Hṛdayānanda: In other words, Prabhupāda, unless there are enough gentlemen to accept saintly persons, we cannot talk to them. [break] Devotee (2): : ...we have to defeat them by prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have to show them mercy. It is not a question of defeat. Just like a diseased person is talking nonsense, so doctors takes care, "All right, go on talking nonsense. Take this medicine." (devotees laugh) That is hospitalization. Yaśomatīnandana: They're already defeated. *Prabhupāda: Yeah, already defeated by nature. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. That is stated, apahṛta-jñāna. Māyā is taking their all knowledge, and because māyā is taking their all knowledge, the preaching is required. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: So why wouldn't, why couldn't they accept that such simple thing? Prabhupāda: They're not wise. Mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Because they always engage in sinful activities. These are the sym..., cause of their disease. They're sinful, they're rascal, lowest of the mankind, and whatever knowledge they are proud of, that is māyā, and the basic principle is they're asuras, atheists. Yaśomatīnandana: Just like a prisoner trying to demand explanation from the King... Prabhupāda: Let us go (indistinct). Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should go straight back; it's getting late. Prabhupāda: Ah? No, no. What is the time now? Karandhara: : Quarter to seven. Prabhupāda: : Quarter to seven? Devotee: Yeah. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when someone is sick, he willingly goes to the doctor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): So... *Prabhupāda: That is the injunction of the Vedas. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva... [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore these rascals should go to a bona fide guru. Devotee (2): So how we can get them to willingly come... Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): ...to the guru? Prabhupāda: Just like if you are diseased, you are suffering the pains, so naturally you shall be inclined how to reduce the pain, how to get out of... Devotee (2): But the scientists... *Prabhupāda: But these rascals, even though are suffering three kinds of pains, tri-tāpa-yatna. Just like why you are covered? Because there is pain. Severe cold, similarly severe heat. So we are suffering, either summer season or winter season. We are suffering, tri-tāpa-yatna. There is suffering from our mind, from our body*-this is natural suffering. There is bodily suffering, mental suffering, then suffering caused by other living entities. So we are always suffering. But still they're thinking that "We are happy." The disease is already there. Ah? Just like the Arabian do not want to give you petrol. That means there's suffering caused by other nations. So this is going on. They're simply trying to settle up. But the suffering is there. But they're not in their knowledge, that in spite of all their endeavors, the sufferings are there. What is the cause? Then whom shall I go to ask why the suffering is there? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum [MU 1.2.12]. Therefore you must approach a person who knows how the suffering should be mitigated. *Yaśomatīnandana: But there's so many so*-called gurus, Prabhupāda, how... *Prabhupāda: Then you cannot go to the so*-called. Yaśomatīnandana: How can you convince that we are the real genuine people? Prabhupāda: That you will have to learn, just like you have to go to school, there is injunction. But if you do not know what is school, go to a cow farmer(?), then that is your fault. If I say, "You go and purchase this from the market," suppose you have to purchase gold, but you go to a storefront, milk seller, how you will get the gold? That intelligence you must have, that where gold can be had. You must go to the person who is dealing really with gold. But if you do not know, then you will be cheated. That much knowledge you must have. Hṛdayānanda: That is book distribution. Devotee (2): Just like there are some good schools and some bad schools. Prabhupāda: And because now they're so fallen, they do not go, neither they know; therefore we are canvassing, "Here is a school." Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is our business. "Here is knowledge, come on." Yaśomatīnandana: Still they won't go. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Yaśomatīnandana: This is the only knowledge. Everybody else is distributing ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes questions are raised saying that how do we know that a bird is more intelligent than a human being. Prabhupāda: : Yes, bird is more intelligent. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are posing that... Prabhupāda: Just like, just like, here is a bird, as soon as he see so many men are coming, he'll jump over you. You are not intelligent to jump over. Suppose someone is coming to stab you; you cannot jump. Therefore bird is more intelligent. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we know that they're not (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Ah? No, they'll know enemy is coming, even if he says, animals they know. As soon as there is enemy, they take protection. Devotee (2): : But they take the hook. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): : But the fish take the hook. Prabhupāda: Hook? Devotee (2): : When the man is fishing with the hook, the fish that takes the hook...? *Prabhupāda: : That ignorance is there, but the hook... Not only out of ignorance, out of greediness. That if you become more greedy, he knows that there is sufficient food in the sea, but the rascal is greedy, he's taking another... Due to his rascaldom, he's dying. Greediness. So similarly, all arrangement is there, God*-made. Even for human beings. But because they're rascals, they're greedy. They're greedy. Although their greediness cannot satisfy them, everyone is greedy because the law of nature is equal to everyone. If law of nature can supply food to the birds and beast and everyone, why not to the human beings? What human being has done? But they're rascal, greedy, therefore suffering. More, wants more. There is already food grains, milk, flowers, fruits, immense supply, but he'll cut the throat of another animal. Greedy. And they're suffering, committing sinful activities. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're getting information that only in the human form... Prabhupāda: Wherefrom information? Another rascal? What is that information? If you get information from another rascal, what you'll get benefit? The source of information must be perfect. Then you get information, it is all right. If you are a rascal and if you get information from another rascal, then what is the benefit? Karandhara: They'd say there is no perfect source. Prabhupāda: Because you are not... You're cheater, you're cheater, you are cheated, therefore that is your version. Karandhara: : We are imperfect. How do we know what a perfect source is? *Prabhupāda: No, I do not know. Therefore it is said, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet. You must know from the person who knows. Karandhara: He's also imperfect. *Prabhupāda: Ah? Well his perfection is proved there is satisfaction. The so*-called scientists, philosophers, politicians, they could not bring peace in the world. That is their fools. Karandhara: We have also not brought peace in the world. Prabhupāda: No, our all followers are peaceful. We... I'm getting thousands of letters, how much you are benefited. Devotee: United Nations gets thousands of letters. Hṛdayānanda: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: They get letters protest, that "You, rascal, United Nations, what you are doing for this?" Karandhara: No, they're getting millions of dollars in contributions every year from people that think they're doing... Prabhupāda: No, that "in future." No. That is his philosophy. (devotees laugh) Karandhara: Our philosophy also. We say we can bring peace in the world, but that's in the future. Devotee (2): No, but they are giving their contributions. Prabhupāda: : (aside:) No. Devotee: Maybe that will help them bring some peace. Devotee (2): : But we already have peace. Hṛdayānanda: The United Nations cannot bring peace either. Yaśomatīnandana: This is a question of the standard of peace. Devotees: (discuss among themselves) Prabhupāda: Then if you say like that, then United Nations is not better than us, you have to accept. If we cannot give peace, and they are not giving peace, then why they are so big organization? Karandhara: They will say because it is a better organization. Prabhupāda: : They cannot answer. They simply give, they can give simply words, that's all. "United," they're speaking of unity, only flags are increasing. Daily another flag, another flag, another flag, and the flags will never unite. And still they are advertising "United Nations." Yaśomatīnandana: When the war starts, United States... Prabhupāda: Yes, in America, they started, United Nations, but they are going to fight with the Vietnam. United Nations. Yaśomatīnandana: Unless one is free from the material concept of life, like "I'm American," "I'm Indian," "I'm Chinese," "I'm Japanese," how can he be peaceful? Because he has got some grudge against somebody else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Whereas as a devotee, he doesn't have any grudge against anybody. Therefore he's peaceful. Devotee: He has a grudge against the demons. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee: Demons. Yaśomatīnandana: That's due to love for Kṛṣṇa. That's not a grudge against demons. Devotee (2): A devotee also is merciful to the demons. Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not envious of the demons. Otherwise there is no need of preaching. We are trying to make the demons perfect. That is our preaching. Devotee: Compassionate. Prabhupāda: : Ah? Yes. Compassion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are preaching that the human form of life is the most important form of any living entities. Prabhupāda: Ah? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That human form of life... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is the most important species. Prabhupāda: Developed consciousness, developed consciousness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But somebody asks, "How do I know a bird is not more highly advanced than a human being?" Prabhupāda: How you can ask? Devotee (2): By example. Prabhupāda: That is... Human being has created the city. The bird cannot. Devotee (2): Birds also create cities. Prabhupāda: No, their cities, their own way, not like this. Human being has constructed the skyscraper building. A bird cannot. In that sense you are advanced. That sense you are advanced. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they say this is just our own mental concoction. Prabhupāda: They can repair their nest with some stick, and that's all. That much they can do. But you can big, big beams, you can... That is the difference. Yaśomatīnandana: Because even the most powerful birds we can control. Prabhupāda: But, but there is no benefit. You are misusing your intelligence by skyscraper building, and they're using their intelligence to make a nest; but the benefit derived is equal. Therefore, in that sense you are less intelligence. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In other words, they never violate the laws of nature, but other..., we are backward, because we tried to fight against the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our disease. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are more advanced. Devotee (2): Practically you said that. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): That the birds are living naturally. Prabhupāda: Yeah, naturally. No... They have no discrimination. They have to abide by the laws of nature. But you have got discrimination; therefore you are punished. Devotee (2): So we will attract the scientists by saying that we are both fools? Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): Before we were saying that we were both fools. Is that the way to attract the scientists? Prabhupāda: : No, no. That was argument. We are not fools; the scientist is fool. (devotees laugh) We are educated. Devotee (2): But how we can get them to come, to take prasādam? Prabhupāda: That... Yes, give them nice prasādam, they'll come. If one scientist can be captured, many others can be captured. (laughter) Yaśomatīnandana: : By saying that "We have got free food, come and dine with us." Devotee (2): But first we give them prasādam and then they come, or first they come and then we give them prasādam? Prabhupāda: Yes, just like that Dr. Wolfe came also. So gradually they'll come, because they're... Svarūpa Dāmodara: : But they're more interested in seeing the molecules than in taking prasādam. Prabhupāda: No... Svarūpa Dāmodara: : That is their (indistinct). Devotee (2): So we have to trick them to take prasādam. Prabhupāda: They will (indistinct) as students not to see molecules, but to see how palatable dishes are there. (laughter) Devotee: Yeah, they will forget it. Prabhupāda: At that time they forget their laboratory. Yaśomatīnandana: You forgot your laboratory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Govinda Khorana, he got Nobel Prize about two years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So whenever he works, he never cares about anything, but he carries his only piece of paper and pen so that he can write molecules. So his consciousness is only on molecules, and he is very happy. Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is māyā. That is māyā. Even the pig is happy eating stool. That is māyā. Āvaraṇātmika-śakti (?). Covering energy of māyā. Unless he's covered, he cannot eat and enjoy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are all guided by māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Prakṛti is conducting everything, as you are associating with qualities of prakṛti. That I have already explained. Devotees: Jaya! All glories to... (end) Morning Walk -- December 5, 1973, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...has done a great mistake. I never expected... (noise) ...all of a sudden... [break] You see the so*-called swamis and yogis. They could not do anything, because they are outsider. They are not within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. One must remain within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. Then his spiritual life is assured. Otherwise, paramour(?). [break] Similarly, everything, everyone belongs to Kṛṣṇa's family, but we have to see what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa. Just like everyone is citizen of the state. Why a man is given high position and big title? Why? Because he's recognized. Sudāmā: Right. Prabhupāda: So one must give service. Simply to feel, "I belong to Kṛṣṇa's family," and doing nothing for Kṛṣṇa, that is not... Sudāmā: That's no good. Prabhupāda: That's no good. That is not good. That means he'll... Very soon he'll again forget Kṛṣṇa. He'll again forget Kṛṣṇa. Sudāmā: Actually, the other element is so powerful. These people here, because, even though they are part of Kṛṣṇa's family, but because they have forgotten, then we become influenced by their forgetfulness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Forgetfulness means māyā. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Māyā is nothing. It is a forgetfulness. That's all. It has no existence. Forgetfulness, it does not stand. But so long it is there, it is very troublesome. Sudāmā: I've been asked a question by some devotees sometimes that they don't feel happy. So even if they are unhappy, mentally, should, they still should continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I tell them, even if one is unhappy... Prabhupāda: But you should show example. If you show example different way, how they will follow you? Sudāmā: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Example is better than precept. Why you are living outside? Sudāmā: Well, I... Prabhupāda: [break] ...last time I was so much deteriorated in health, I had to leave this place. That does not mean I'll leave the Society. I went to India and recuperated. Or came to London. That's all right. So health may be sometimes... But that does not mean we shall give up the Society. If my health is unsuitable here, I go... I have a hundred centers. And you'll not go out of this universe for your health recouping. You have to remain within the universe. Then why do you go out of the Society? [break] ...Śrī Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. We have to live with devotees. Why I left my family? Because they were not devotees. Therefore I come... Otherwise, in old age, I would have been comfortable. No. We should not live with the nondevotees, may be family men or anyone. Just like Mahārāja Vibhīṣaṇa. Because his brother was not devotee, he left him, left him. He came to Rāmacandra. Vibhīṣaṇa. You know that? Sudāmā: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, it says that a sannyāsī should live alone. That means only with devotees. Prabhupāda: Who...! Where it is said sannyāsī should live alone? Hṛdayānanda: I mean, sometimes in your books. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes in your books. So that means with devotees. Prabhupāda: In general, sannyāsī may live alone. But sannyāsī's duty is to preach. Sudāmā: That I don't ever want to stop. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudāmā: I don't ever want to stop preaching. Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, preaching, you cannot manufacture preaching. You must do preaching according to the principles ordered by your spiritual master. You cannot manufacture your own way of preaching. That is required. There must be some leader. Under the leadership. Yasya prasādād bhagavat... Why it is said? Everywhere, in the office, there is some immediate boss. So you have to please him. That is service. Suppose in office, in a department there is office superintendent. And if you do in your own way, "Yes, I'm doing my business," and the office superintendent is not pleased, do you think that kind of service is nice? No. Similarly, we have got, everywhere we have got immediate boss. So we must work. That is systematic. If everyone manufactures, invents his own way of life, then there must be chaos. Sudāmā: Yeah, that's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we are world organization. There is spiritual side, and there is material side also. That is not material side. That is also spiritual side, means systematic management. Otherwise how it will be done? Just like Gaurasundara sold the house, and there is no trace of the money. What is this? He did not ask him, anyone. He sold the house, and where is the money, there is no trace. [break] Ah, Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is that badge? Tennis? Devotee: It's not a badge. It's the only sweater I... Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Yesterday I received one letter from Rūpānuga Mahārāja. He's preaching very nice. Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Rūpānuga? Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: There have been several people here in Los Angeles... Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: ...that have wanted to meet you. A councilman, a councilman here in Los Angeles would like to meet you, a city councilman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. He's welcome. Umāpati: So, and, and um, also a Professor Scharfe at the UCLA, he's... Prabhupāda: Professor? Umāpati: Professor Scharfe. He's a Sanskrit scholar of the Vedic, Vedic... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scharfer? Umāpati: Scharfe. Scharfe. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not Scharfer? *Devotee: Scharfe, spelled S*-c-h-a-r-f-e. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I met him. Umāpati: Yes. He would like very much to meet with you. Prabhupāda: All right. Make appointment. What, what is his purpose to meet me? Umāpati: Well, Professor Scharfe is interested in your writings, and I don't know the councilman's motives. He just sent word to me that he would like to meet with you. Prabhupāda: We welcome any respectable gentleman. We have to go this way? Karandhara: Uh, yeah, Prabhupāda, we can go this way, through here. [break] Hṛdayānanda: The scientists will never give up. Prabhupāda: They are trying. Hṛdayānanda: They are like Jarāsandha. They come back every day on your walk. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have any specific reference for acintya in the Vedic reference? Prabhupāda: Acintya, acintya, yes, acintya. Acintya potency, even you have got acintya potency. That I have already explained. Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, therefore there is pinch of acintya, inconceivable potency, in us also. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we have any specific reference? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva Gosvāmī. Jīva Gosvāmī has stated that unless we accept acintya, inconceivable energy, there is no conception of God. There is no conception of God. If you bring God to your conception, he's not God. *Umāpati: Acintya, acintya*-bheda is a unique contribution of Vaiṣṇavas to the concept of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Actually, that is the fact. We cannot explain what is God. We have to accept what is God from God. Yaśomatīnandana: Avaroha. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: Avaroha process? Prabhupāda: Yes, not ava... Yes, avaroha process. Yes, thank you. Here Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. We have to accept that. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So "There is no more superior authority than Me." Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Yaśomatīnandana: (loud waves drowns out voice) *Prabhupāda: Ah, na me viduḥ sura*-gaṇāḥ... [Bg 10.2]. Yaśomatīnandana: What to speak of these teeny scientists, even the great sages can't know Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aham ādir hi devānām... Yaśomatīnandana: Maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśomatīnandana: Even Lord Brahmā, when he saw the innumerable Viṣṇu forms of the child Kṛṣṇa, then he himself said that "As far as I know, as far as I am concerned, I don't know anything about You." *Prabhupāda: No, he... Yes. That is the Brahmā's position, what to speak of others. Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura*-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ. Yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavaiḥ. Brahmā, Varuṇa, all demigods. Yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra. Rudra even, Śiva, Lord Śiva. Stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. That Bhārati cited this verse. Yes. Hṛdayānanda: The five gods? Prabhupāda: No, no, this verse. Yaśomatīnandana: Is that by Śaṅkarācārya, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no. It is Vedic. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Where is it from, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Where is it from? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is the *Bhāgavatam*? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhāgavatam is there. Yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra*-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: I remember Śrīla Prabhupāda used this "acintya" to differentiate between the life and the non*-living. Prabhupāda: Acintya means living. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, acintya-śakti. Life, life has acintya... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whereas non*-life doesn't have. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Matter, just like a molecule doesn't have this acintya. But they may... Prabhupāda: No, it has, but it is covered too much. Consciousness is covered. Potency, potent. It is potent. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecule has consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has consciousness, but it is covered. The degree is of covering. Umāpati: I was reading the writings of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in Jaiva Dharma. Prabhupāda: Ah. Umāpati: And he is explaining the word "śraddhā," and he defines it in there as the tendency of the mind towards devotion without regard to jñāna or karma. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: Śraddhā. Umāpati: Śraddhā. And I have heard it variously interpreted as meaning "faith" or "belief," which really falls short of that interpretation. Prabhupāda: What is that interpretation? Umāpati: Could you elaborate on the definition of śraddhā? *Prabhupāda: Śraddhā is explained in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Śraddhā means firm conviction. That is śraddhā. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supermost." So if you have firm conviction in Kṛṣṇa's words, that is śraddhā. Umāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: If you have doubts, then that is not śraddhā. Umāpati: So therefore one can understand only if one is in śraddhā. Prabhupāda: No, that śraddhā has to be increased. Umāpati: How it is increased? Prabhupāda: The beginning of śraddhā means firm conviction. Umāpati: How is it śraddhā does not exist in one person, and it does exist... Prabhupāda: No, śraddhā is there. It has to be awakened. Umāpati: Śraddhā is in every person then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say it is covered. It is covered. That covering has to be taken away. That is called bhajana (indistinct). That is called culture. Umāpati: Upāsanā. Prabhupāda: Upāsanā, bhajana, sādhana, culture, whatever you say. He has to awaken that śraddhā, more and more. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, is every jīva given a chance in the beginning to go in the spiritual world? Then he falls down, or...? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: Or sometimes the jīva may choose directly... *Prabhupāda: The jīva is atomic. It is smaller than the atoms. One ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatāṁśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. So every living entity, atom. Yaśomatīnandana: Is he first allowed...? Prabhupāda: Less than the atom. Smaller than the atom. Yaśomatīnandana: Is he allowed to associate with Kṛṣṇa in the beginning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: As jīva, as jīva is... Prabhupāda: He's always with Kṛṣṇa. Simply he has forgotten. Have you not been with Kṛṣṇa? We are standing on this sand. The sand is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's energy. We are standing by the water. This is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Don't you read that? So is it different from Kṛṣṇa? Yaśomatīnandana: No, but it is... Prabhupāda: My body is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. I am also Kṛṣṇa's energy. I am always with Kṛṣṇa. Simply I have forgotten it. Yaśomatīnandana: But this is Kṛṣṇa's inferior energy, right? Prabhupāda: That may be. That is a comparative study, inferior or superior. But it is energy. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: As energy, it is not different from Kṛṣṇa, as energy. Yaśomatīnandana: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Prabhupāda: Yes. As energy, how can you differentiate from Kṛṣṇa? Umāpati: You give the... It could be described as like the growth of a plant as compared to the energy of the sun. Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: The growth of a plant as compared to the energy of the sun. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: The growth of the plant is the inferior energy, and the... (loud waves) Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. That is comparative study. But... (loud waves) Energy is not different from the energetic. Sunshine is not different from the sun. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. Everything is Bhagavān, but it appears like different. Yaśomatīnandana: Is that what it means by sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Everything is spiritual, but when it is... due to our ignorance, we think it is material. Prabhupāda: Yes, but don't associate with... (indistinct) ...must realize. Yaśomatīnandana: So Māyāvādīs artificially think that? Prabhupāda: Yes. They have no realization. Yaśomatīnandana: Somebody even asked me about what is material and what is spiritual, Prabhupāda. I said that whatever is in connection with God is spiritual and whatever is not in connection with God is material. Is that right? Prabhupāda: That's nice, that's nice. Karandhara: The consciousness makes a difference. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: Your consciousness makes the difference. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Because everything is in connection with God except for our own consciousness when we're in māyā. Prabhupāda: Just like we are taking prasādam. How it is spiritual? Yaśomatīnandana: It is offered to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: By our knowledge, that it is... Prabhupāda: By knowledge... Because it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. So anything which is accepted in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual thing. Umāpati: In perfect knowledge, would the first step be faith that it is offered to Kṛṣṇa? One may, may make an offering without being... Prabhupāda: Well, he must learn under superior direction. Otherwise, how he can offer? Umāpati: Well, he may make an attempt. There is a natural impulse to serve, a natural impulse to offer in man, and he may not be aware that he is seeking Kṛṣṇa in his conditioned state. Then, if... Prabhupāda: Then whom he's offering? If he doesn't know Kṛṣṇa... Umāpati: That is his ignorance. If he is seeking. Prabhupāda: Then, if he's in ignorance, what is the value of his offering? Umāpati: I did not hear the last point. Hṛdayānanda: If he's in ignorance, what is the value of the offering? Umāpati: That is true. Hṛdayānanda: He needs a spiritual master. Umāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything in ignorance. Umāpati: But then the spiritual master gives him knowledge... Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: ...and then from that knowledge he becomes aware that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: ...Kṛṣṇa is in the offering. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yaśomatīnandana: Spiritual master gives knowledge, and then a disciple is eternally indebted to spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: It is not that, like Māyāvādīs, they serve the spiritual master in the beginning and then they... Prabhupāda: Then they... Yaśomatīnandana: ...themselves become... *Prabhupāda: ...throw him away, "Go away. I have now learned." Guru*-mara-vidyā, to, the knowledge of how to kill guru. Guru-mara-vidyā. Their, the philosophy is that you cannot rise up. You take a ladder. But as soon as you rise, throw away the ladder. No more. No more needed. That is Māyāvāda philosophy. Our philosophy is dhyāyan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyam. Yaśomatīnandana: Three... Prabhupāda: Eternally. Yaśomatīnandana: Somebody told me, Prabhupāda, about Vallabhācārya, that he sometimes, he once went to Lord Caitanya and said that he wrote a better commentary than a previous ācārya, and Lord... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Svāmī. Yaśomatīnandana: Lord Caitanya chastised him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: An unchaste wife who abandons a swami. Prabhupāda: He referred to Śrīdhara Svāmī. So swami means husband. So He sarcastically remarked, "Anyone who does not accept swami, she is prostitute." Yaśomatīnandana: Is Vallabhācārya, Prabhupāda, in accordance with our philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes, he's Vaiṣṇava, ācārya. But that very deviation, that "I have done something better than Śrīdhara," that is not our paramparā system. Then he was thinking himself better than Śrīdhara. That is not allowed. We should always remain servant of the servant [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. Never we shall think that "I am better than my Guru Mahārāja." That is fall down. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare... Our Juhu Beach is very nice. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All clean, and you can walk very nicely. In Bombay. Yaśomatīnandana: And lot of people can see you. And they bow down to you? Prabhupāda: If they do not, what can I do? Yaśomatīnandana: Well, no, if they do, then they will go to Vaikuṇṭha. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is our śāstric injunction, that as soon as you see a sannyāsī, you must bow down. Otherwise, you should fast one day. It doesn't matter, I or you. This is the injunction of the śāstra, that sannyāsī is supposed to be the guru of the society. So one must bow down. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, in our movement there are so many sannyāsīs. If we see the sannyāsī, same, so many times in one day, we should bow down every time we see him? Prabhupāda: If you can, of course. Śrutakīrti: It wouldn't hurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...this time He used to take His saṅkīrtana party for strolling all over the city. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, we are helpless without you. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: We are helpless without you. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Today sky is clear. Umāpati: With this energy crisis now, it'll be even clearer. Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: With this energy crisis it'll be even more clear. [break] ...these people, these politicians, this power that we have in our government would be..., come to an end. Prabhupāda: It has already come to an end. There is no government anywhere, simply chaos. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, do you think that the ISKCON will, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become a major religion in any country? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become a major religion in any country? Prabhupāda: So far the statement goes, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3], one can understand. But even one person understands, it is beneficial for many. Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Just like you understood your Guru Mahārāja's message, and the whole world is benefited. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yaśomatīnandana: Not everybody can be that potent. [break] Prabhupāda: ...just like the sunshine is open to everyone, but if you do not take advantage of it, that is your fault. Sunshine is not meant for, specifically for any person. It is open to everyone. But if you purposefully close your door, and do not see the sunshine, that is your fault. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda, but there's only one earthly planet, and you have conquered it already. Umāpati: Is not a true Vaiṣṇava also a sannyāsī? Would you explain the difference between them? Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: Is not a, one who is truly a Vaiṣṇava, is he not also a sannyāsī by his...? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī, sannyāsī is in the material platform, and Vaiṣṇava is in the spiritual platform. Umāpati: So then the Vaiṣṇava is superior to a sannyāsī? Prabhupāda: Yes. He's not sannyāsī. He's above sannyāsī. Umāpati: Oh. But a Vaiṣṇava would always offer his respects to a sannyāsī. Is that not true? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa was offering respect to His elderly persons. That is etiquette. Karandhara: Step aside a little bit so that Prabhupāda can... If you stay to the side a little bit, you box Prabhupāda in. Umāpati: There's some austerity, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Umāpati: They're sleeping on the beach. Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit of their sleeping? (laughter) Umāpati: They save their rent money. Prabhupāda: Eh? That is his misfortune. That is a young man's fashion in your country. Umāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not austerity. That is licentiousness. *Umāpati: Yes. It comes from a time when we admire swashbuckling and being free, so*-called, in the material sense. Prabhupāda: That is reaction. The rich man is trying to become a poor man. "Let me see what is the advantage of the poor man." That's right. Your country does not require to lie down like that. You have got enough arrangement. But it is a fashion. That's all. So fashion is not austerity. That is sense gratification. It appears like austerity, but it is sense gratification. Real austerity is not to make any sense gratification, simply to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is real austerity. Umāpati: So if Kṛṣṇa required us to sleep on the beach, then... Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: ...that would not be... if Kṛṣṇa required us to sleep on the beach, that would not be sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No. And why Kṛṣṇa will require like that? Do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is a madman? Umāpati: No. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, I was thinking that too. Why would Kṛṣṇa require any of his devotees to sleep on the beach? Prabhupāda: He wants to see His devotees are comfortably situated. Why He'll unnecessarily ask that "Go to the beach and lie down?" Umāpati: You say that Kṛṣṇa stands there smiling very sweetly, playing the flute. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: So why should he require us to go through austerities like...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya means he must show by example. Āpani ācari bhakti śikhāimu sabāre. Hare Kṛṣṇa... Umāpati: Is there such a thing as a sincere atheist... Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: ...who benefits by austerity? Prabhupāda: Atheist? Atheist? How he's sincere? Umāpati: That's what I... That's what I'm asking. Prabhupāda: Honest thief? It is contradictory. If I say, "Here is an honest thief," is that a good designation, honest thief? Umāpati: Well, in that case, that's so. You're right. It's absurd. Yes. Prabhupāda: So... Yaśomatīnandana: A sincere atheist... Umāpati: But there are those who appear... At least, they think, they feel they are sincere when they go through austerities, but they won't accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness as, at this point in their, in their existence. Prabhupāda: No, some atheists say that "We are Godless because nobody has convinced us about the existence of God." That is honesty. That is honesty. But there are rascals, however you may convince him, he'll not take it. That is rascaldom. Yaśomatīnandana: Believe in God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: So the honest ones become devotees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: We were all... Prabhupāda: If he's honest, then he must take. Yaśomatīnandana: We were all atheists, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: We were all atheists. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you, if, if, if an atheist is honest, then when he's convinced, he must accept Kṛṣṇa. That is honesty. If after convincing him, he does not take, that is dishonesty. Umāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is dishonesty. Umāpati: But there's a quality in this age that one does not accept defeat philosophically, philosophical defeat. If one is presented with philosophically sound arguments, it is a tendency today to refuse to accept the superiority of Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy over any other philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: It's very popular to put all philosophies in the same... "Well, that's philosophy," they say. They say that "Everybody has his opinion. That's your opinion," they say. Prabhupāda: No. Umāpati: So no one will accept any kind of superior philosophy. It's very difficult to discuss these things among them. Prabhupāda: No, then everyone, if becomes superior, then where is the question of philosophy? If everyone is superior himself, then there is no question of philosophy. Is there any necessity? You are superior, I am superior; then where is the question of discussing philosophy? Umāpati: That is trying to be God. He's trying... Then we are always God. Prabhupāda: Then philosophy becomes null and void. As soon as everyone becomes his own authority, then philosophy becomes null and void. There is no necessity of philosophy. Umāpati: That is the difficulty of our age. Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. Mūḍhāḥ. If you do not accept philosophy, you do not accept authority, that means all rascals. *Hṛdayānanda: You said, "alpa*-medhasaḥ..." Prabhupāda: Outlaws, they are called outlaws. Just the outlaws, they do not accept any authority, government authority, or authority of the law, they're called outlaws. Rejected. Umāpati: Yeah, well, this is a nation of outlaws. Prabhupāda: So they are rejected. If anyone, everyone becomes his own authority, then it is chaos. Umāpati: Well, that is the fashion today. Prabhupāda: Yes. Fashion means... Umāpati: It's called "Do your own thing." Prabhupāda: No, who are you to say me, "Do your own thing"? Then you become master. You are directing me. Why should you direct me, "Do your own thing"? You stop. Don't talk. If your philosophy accepted that everyone is authority, you cannot say, "Do your own work." Why should you say? Then you become authority. You should not speak at all. Karandhara: That is also a philosophy. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: That is also a philosophy. Prabhupāda: What is that philosophy? Karandhara: That "Do your own thing" is also a philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a philosophy. Why you are dictating? You'd better stop. Don't talk. That's all. You have no facility for talking. Have you? Umāpati: No, I haven't. Prabhupāda: Then? You keep yourself satisfied with your own philosophy. I keep myself satisfied with my philosophy. There is no need of talking. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prabhupāda: And that is good. If a foolish man does not talk, it is good for him and good for others. Because he'll talk foolish. Better not to talk. That is good. That... Infectious diseased man... what is called? Quarantine. Karandhara: Quarantine. *Prabhupāda: He's put separately so that he may not poison others. He may not poison others. So that is the position of the self*-sufficient authority. Yaśomatīnandana: In Gujarati we call it: bhanji moti laksmim.(?) When the palm is closed it is worth lakh rupees, but when it is open, it doesn't mean anything. A foolish person, when he talks, he reveals everything. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Foolish person means busy rascal. There are four kinds of division: lazy intelligent and busy intelligent and lazy rascal and busy rascal. The first*-class man is lazy intelligent, and second class, busy intelligent, and third class, lazy rascal, and fourth class, busy rascal. A rascal, if he's busy, then what he will do? He'll simply do harm. That's all. Karandhara: Create havoc. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: Create havoc. Prabhupāda: Havoc, create havoc. Just as they are doing now. All rascals, they are very busy. Yaśomatīnandana: Creating atom bombs. *Prabhupāda: Ah, therefore the whole world is in confusion. All rascals, they are busy. What is the use of such business? Like monkey. Monkey's very busy, always, but doing harm. That's all. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, ugra-karmāṇaḥ kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ. These rascals, they are busy just to destroy the whole world and do the mischief. That's all. Actually, they are doing so. That we also... In English language, sometimes it is said, "A sharp razor in the hands of a child." The child... That is this imitation. They want to imitate their father. So if he imitates the razor sharp, then he will create havoc. So these rascals, they have got now all power, and therefore creating havoc. They do not know how to use it. According to Vedic principle, the śūdras, they should not be given more money, the worker class. Now the worker class is given more money. So what they'll do? They'll produce drunkards. That's all. In America, it is evident. They do not know how to use money. So therefore we see, fifty-two percent drunkards in your country. Eh? What is the percentage? Devotee: I'm not sure, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Karandhara: It's probably close to that. *Prabhupāda: Eh? At least fifty*-percent. Eh? Karandhara: Drunkards, debauchers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Criminals. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. What is the time? Hṛdayānanda: Quarter to seven. Prabhupāda: Oh. So we can...? Karandhara: We can walk around a little bit. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Umāpati: So how... Is it a waste of time then to present Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy to someone who believes in doing your own thing? Do you think that that is a...? Prabhupāda: No. It is, it is... We should push Kṛṣṇa consciousness as disinfecting agent. They're all infected, the whole world. So by chanting you disinfect. Umāpati: Just by our presence chanting then? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore chanting is so important. Philosophy later on. First of all, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Cleansing the heart. So by hearing this chanting their heart will be cleansed gradually. Then they will understand the real position. Umāpati: Oh. Jaya. Hṛdayānanda: Oh, Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So we have to do this chanting, not sit down in a solitary place, chanting himself. No, not like that. You are to vibrate the sound for the benefit of others. Umāpati: That is the mystical process of this movement. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So that their heart may be cleansed and they can understand. And if I sit down in a solitary place, for my benefit, that may be his benefit, but it is not very high class engagement. He must sacrifice for others. Pararthe prag utsri, utsri(?). That is the Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's moral instruction, that "Everyone should sacrifice for the Supreme." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is God Himself. He comes down to preach, to become sannyāsī, and to take so much trouble all over India and everywhere, and giving instruction and sending men, "Go, go, go, go." What? Why you...? He's perfect. Why He's coming? He doesn't require. No. For the benefit of others, we must follow the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (aside:) That's all right. Why water is here? Karandhara: I don't know, Prabhupāda. It's a low spot. *Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava's first qualification that he's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Vaiṣṇava cannot be unhappy. That Prahlāda Mahārāja says, that "I have no problem. I am unhappy seeing these people who are simply engaged in false activities and they do not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore I am unhappy." This is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. Not that "I am saved. That's all right." That is materialism. "Let others go to hell. I am saved." That is materialism. A Vaiṣṇava should think always, "Oh, so many people are suffering. What I am doing for them?" That is Vaiṣṇava. Para*-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also said by scientists. They also say that "People are suffering. So we are trying to make them happy." Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you do not know, how you'll make them happy? You'll create havoc. *Yaśomatīnandana: Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Prabhupāda: Yes, you do not know how to make them happy. First of all learn how to make them happy. You cannot manufacture your program to make them happy. That everyone is doing. But the more they are acting, the world becoming in chaotic condition. You know what is the standard of happiness, how to make them happy; then you can work. If a medical man, he has never seen a medical college and if he wants to treat patient, what is this? Hṛdayānanda: A criminal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Quack. He must know how to make them happy. That is first business. Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. All glories to Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in the car) *Prabhupāda: [break] ...basic disease. He has made himself voluntarily under the clutches of māyā. And māyā's business is to give trouble. That's all. Otherwise, he's free, but he has voluntarily accepted the custody of māyā. Yayā sammohito jīvaḥ. Sammohitaḥ means bewildered. Jīva, the living entities. Ātmānaṁ tri*-guṇātmakam. Everyone is identifying, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this body," "I am that body." This is identification with māyā. Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam. Tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate. And as soon as he becomes under the clutches of māyā, he'll act according to the dictation of māyā. Tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate. [break] ...to see their Los Angeles Zoo? Why they're advertising? Sudāmā: The Los Angeles what, Prabhupāda? Hṛdayānanda: Zoo. Prabhupāda: Zoo. Sudāmā: Oh yeah? Karandhara: It's not a very good zoo. Sudāmā: No, it's not. Karandhara: Just a small little one. Hṛdayānanda: The big zoo is in San Diego. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, zoo in the Africa. Sudāmā: Oh yeah? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) No, actually they go. There is a national zoo. Thousands of... Practically Africa's main income is from the tourists. Śrutakīrti: Tourism. Prabhupāda: Yes. People go to see. You'll, you'll drive your car. You'll find lions, elephants, or... Śrutakīrti: Recently one of Brahmānanda's men had an accident by hitting some animal on the road. Large animal, I think it was. Prabhupāda: Oh, what accident? Śrutakīrti: One of the vans. One of the devotees ran into an animal on the road. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Śrutakīrti: I'm not sure what it was. Prabhupāda: No, the national garden means there is arrangement. The animals are free, roaming. But you can go with your car and... Hṛdayānanda: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: And they cannot attack within the car. Sudāmā: No. Prabhupāda: But if you come out, they'll attack. The lions are there, elephants are there. [break] Sudāmā: Not very cold? Prabhupāda: Not very cold. Sudāmā: No, no. Compared to Hawaii, it is very cold. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudāmā: Compared to Hawaii, it is very cold. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hawaii is very pleasant. *Sudāmā: Yes, now it is eighty*-five degrees every day. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sudāmā: It's wintertime now. Prabhupāda: And summer? Sudāmā: Summer's very hot. Hundred and five. Prabhupāda: But there is rainfall. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Summer. Sudāmā: Yes. There's quite a bit now. Sometimes in the winter it rains. So that one devotee brought up the point of the philosophy of "Do your own thing," and that's what the devotees were instructed in Hawaii to do. When they closed the temple, Gaurasundara just said, "Now everyone go and do your own thing for Prabhupāda." Prabhupāda: If he does Prabhupāda's work, then where is the own thing? Sudāmā: Yeah, right. There's... Prabhupāda: "Do your own thing on behalf of Prabhupāda." So if he wants Prabhupāda, he must abide by the order of Prabhupāda. Sudāmā: Yeah. My thing is your thing. Actually, I have nothing of my own. Prabhupāda: No, they have been misguided. But temple closing was very irresponsible... [break] ...house many years. Sudāmā: Many years. (end) Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...from your audience? Hṛdayānanda: Well, one of the main things is that they say, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness may be very nice, but many other things are also very nice, and everyone says that 'I am right.' " Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Nice... Suppose if there is a nice staircase. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that one, two, three, four, five, six, seven stairs. Still, one who has gone to the topmost nice stair, he has to be considered the topmost. Hṛdayānanda: But then... Prabhupāda: Everything may be nice. Because Kṛṣṇa says: mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ: "Everyone is trying to approach Me, but one who has approached two steps, he cannot say that he's equal to the person who has approached hundred steps." Hṛdayānanda: Well, then they will say that everyone... The Christians would say that they're on the top step, and the Buddhists say they're on the top step. Prabhupāda: No, they may say, but if Kṛṣṇa is God, what He says, that we'll have to accept, what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior than Me." That you have to accept. Everyone will say, "I am very good." But is that the fact, that everyone is very good? There is comparative, superlative degrees. Just like shopkeepers, they say, "All my goods are good." They are competition. One has to judge. That comparative study... What the highest Buddha philosophy? Ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā, nonviolence. That is our preliminary study. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam [Bg. 13.8]. There are many other things after ahiṁsā. They do not know this. Hṛdayānanda: There's another argument. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Another argument. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Hṛdayānanda: Many times, the professors, they say that "If God, if god were actually all, all*-good and all-perfect, then when He created us, we would also be all-good..." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are contaminated. You are all*-good. That's a fact. Because you are part and parcel of God, you cannot be bad. But you are contaminated. Hṛdayānanda: Well, they say that "Even, even if I have the potential... Even to say that I ha..." Prabhupāda: You have got the potential. That's it. Hṛdayānanda: But if I say that... If I, I'm originally in the spiritual world, but even the potential to fall down is an imperfection in the creation. Prabhupāda: No, potential does not fall down. Just like a child has got the potency to pass the M.A. examination. So he has to be educated. If you don't educate him, he'll remain a foolish child. So we are educating to develop that potentiality. Hṛdayānanda: They say, "God should have, God should have created us so that we..." Prabhupāda: Why you should dictate God? God has created perfectly. He has given you independence. You fall down. It is your fault. God has made you perfect, given you independence. But if you misuse your independence, you fall down. Just like government gives everyone opportunity. Why do you become criminal and go to the jail? That is your fault. Hṛdayānanda: They say that God should have created us so that we... Hṛdayānanda: He's imperfect. Prabhupāda: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness. Hṛdayānanda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don't want to surrender to God. Then they blame God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good;" they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad. Karandhara: Just like the criminals blame the government for being in the prison house. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is natural. Yes. Surāśū*-sākṣimat. Surāśū-sākṣimat. In the liquor shop so there was some trouble. So he went to court. He went to court. So the court asked him, "Where is your witness?" So he brought one witness, drunkard. You see? Surāśū-sākṣimat. So that is māyā, ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8], misusing power and blaming God, "Why God...?" God has made everything. Just like here. It is made not to move. Stay. But we are better than this. Is it not? It cannot move. So God has made this also. But because we can move, we are better than this. And if, if, if they say that "God, why he has made me to commit mistake?" This rascal does not understand that that is freedom. You, why don't you take the right one? God says, "This is right." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Why don't you take it? And still, how you can say God is bad? What is the argument? *Umāpati: Well, the argument is that if God is so all*-powerful, why does He even let me fall? Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: If God is so powerful, why does He let me fall. Why doesn't He save me, save me from my own foolishness. Why doesn't He...? Prabhupāda: Yes, He's saving you, but you don't carry His order. Umāpati: Yes, but it's not recognized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I say, "Chant sixteen rounds." If you do not do it. What can I do? That is your fault. Satsvarūpa: If God were to force us, there'd be no love. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. Force is not good. Force is there. Force is there. The māyā is another force. Prajāpati: There's a large segment of the population today who say, "We only speak about God in terms of our own relationships with each other." So one group, they say, "This is all male chauvinism, to say God is a male. Actually, we are saying now the women should be elevated so God is woman for us." They say like that. *Prabhupāda: God... But uh... Well, that's all right. God is male and female both. God, our God, sometimes He takes the form of female, Mohinī*-mūrti. Mohinī-mūrti. But comparatively studying, God is puruṣa, male. Umāpati: He's always a potency. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. He is potent. Umāpati: He's always the supreme potency. Prabhupāda: He is potential. That means you manufacture God. Sometimes you manufacture God as male, sometimes you manufacture God is female. Is it not? Is it not your theory? As you say, "Now we accept female as God," that means you manufacture God. Is it not? Prajāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what you manufacture, is that God? Prajāpati: They see... Prabhupāda: What do you manufacture? You are imperfect. So whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect. How it can be God? Prajāpati: Well, God is simply the way we view each other, relationship with each other, as the... Prabhupāda: Well, that is your manufacture. Why do you say like that? Each other's relationship? The relationship already there. What is to make new there? The already... God is great, and we are small. The relationship is already there. So how you can make another relationship? God is great. Is it not? God is great. Is it not? Prajāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: And then what you are? You are small. Prajāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: So relationship already there. So what relationship you are creating again? It is already there. God is great; you are small. The relationship is already there. He's Creator. You are the created. He's the predominator. You are the predominated. He's the master. You are the servant. This is already there. And what new thing you can create? This is already there. He's master. And He's... Why you are covering? Because God has given this season. So you are dependent. You have to cover. You cannot make it immediately sunshining summer season. That is not within your power. Therefore He's great. You are small. This relationship is already there. Therefore He's master, you are servant. That is the real eternal relationship. What new relationship you can create. It is not possi... It is not possible. He's creator. Are you creator? Can you create anything? Then how you can be master? You are always servant. So relationship is already there. How you can change it? That is speculation. Karandhara: Actually, that philosophy is just atheism. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: That philosophy is atheism. Prabhupāda: Atheism, yes. Atheism. Karandhara: They're not talking about God at all. They're just talking about something they're searching for, sense gratification. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Yes. "Now we shall create female as God." What power you have got? God is already God. You cannot create God, a female, or dog. You can create anything, as you..., by mental speculation, but that is not a fact. Umāpati: They say, "Man was made in the image of God," and now women are saying... Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: They say, "Man was made in the image of God," and now women are saying, "Women are made in the image of God. Therefore God is female." And that is their logic. Prabhupāda: No, no, man or woman, you cannot create God. That is the first proposal. God is not your creation. You are creation of God. You cannot say, "God should be like this. God should be like that." That is nonsense. God is not under your dictation. You are under the dictation of God. That is God. If you manufacture, if you dictate, then how He is God? He's your dog. Just like a dog. He dictates. He abides by your order. He's not God. He's dog. What is the scientist says? Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientist says that God didn't... One of the astronomers said that "If I were present at the time of creation..." Prabhupāda: Ah, you were present. Therefore you are a rascal. You were not allowed to (be) present. Therefore God is great. You are a rascal. God did not allow you to be present there. Now you are lamenting. Therefore God is great. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Because God doesn't lament. He laments. Prabhupāda: Yes. God did not allow you. Therefore you are under control of God. So you are foolish rascal. God did not allow you. Therefore God is great. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prajāpati: One very prominent philosopher, theologian, today named Martin Buber, he says we cannot talk about God as "He", describing so many attributes to Him as something other. He is the eternal... *Prabhupāda: That, that we accept, that ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ: [Brs. 1.2.234] We cannot speculate about God with our imperfect senses. But that does not mean we should not know god. We cannot speculate, but there is process of knowing God. That is from God. When He says, "I am like this," that's all. You have to accept that. You cannot speculate. You cannot create. Just like a big man, a big master, nobody knows how many millions of dollars he has got. They are speculating. His servants are speculating, "Master may have so many millions. Master may have so many..." But that is all imperfect. When the master says, "I have got so much, so many millions," that is perfect. All other speculation, they're all imperfect. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are not speculating. We are accepting God the authority, and He's speaking about Himself. We are accepting. That is our position. Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior authority than Me." We accept it. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You always think of Me. Become my devotee." We become... This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are imperfect, but we accept the perfect. Therefore we are perfect. We are imperfect. We don't say that we are God, or perfect. We are imperfect. But we accept the perfect version of the perfect. Therefore we are perfect. Hṛdayānanda: Well, then again they would say that many people say that they have perfect... Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Many, many different people say that they have the perfect information about God. Prabhupāda: If they have, that's all right. But it should be tested whether they have got. Hṛdayānanda: Tested? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whether you have got perfect information or I have got perfect information, that is to be tested. I have no objection if somebody says that "I have got perfection, perfect information," but I'll have to see whether you have got. But I have no objection if you say. That is all right. Because if I have got perfect information, you may also have. There is no objection. But I have to test whether. Anybody can say, "I have passed M.A. examination." But I have to test whether he's actually M.A... Hṛdayānanda: So who shall decide what the criteria is, to test. *Prabhupāda: God will decide. The God's book is there, Bhagavad*-gītā. Just like two lawyers fighting. Who will decide? The lawbook will decide. Umāpati: How will the judgement be rendered? Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: How will the judgement be rendered? Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: They would ask. Prabhupāda: Judgement will be rendered by lawbook. Hṛdayānanda: They say they have their own lawbook. Prabhupāda: No, that is kick on their face. (laughter) You are rascals. As soon as he says, "I have got my law books," he's a rascal. He's a rascal. Kick on his face with boot. *Karandhara: In the West, they don't accept the Bhagavad*-gītā as anything but a piece of mythology or... *Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept something else. He has to accept something. He may accept Bible. They may not accept Bhagavad*-gītā. They must accept Bible. But you have to, then you have to lead your life according to the version of the Bible. The version of the Bible is that "Thou shalt not kill." You are killing. Therefore you are not, not followers of Bible. You are rascal. Karandhara: Well, their process is to discredit all scriptures so that they don't have to follow anything. Prabhupāda: Then you are discredited. Who follows your version? If you discredit others' version, who follows your version? Who are you? If you don't accept other authority, and who is going to accept your authority? Why shall I? You cannot become authority, that "I don't accept any authority." I have to follow that? Then you become authority. Sudāmā: They also argue, though, that... Prabhupāda: No, first of all, understand. If he says that "I don't accept any authority," that means he becomes authority. I have to follow him. *Hṛdayānanda: Then they say it's a, it's just like a stand*-off then. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Hṛdayānanda: That... Then they say "Well, it's a stand*-off, that I say I'm right and that you say you are right. So it cannot be..." Prabhupāda: But that, therefore there is confusion. The world position is like that. Now it is confusion. Everything is... Bali Mardana: Conflict. Prabhupāda: ...in confusion. That is chaotic condition. Every citizen says, "I don't accept government law. I have got my own law." It is confusion. Bali Mardana: Where is the result of your... Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: We can say, "Where is the result of your belief?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: Confusion. Prabhupāda: Confusion is not... Chaotic condition, confusion is not proper stage. That is a state of suffering. That is the position at the present moment. Otherwise, why they are fighting, nation to nation, man to man, group to group, community to community, diplomat to dip...? They're simply fighting like cats and dogs. This is not perfect society. Simply ca... They can say dogs. They can simply make barking, "Whowf! Whowf! Whowf! Whowf!" That is not perfect society. Human society should be sober. That is Vedic civilization. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But one should follow the standard morality. When that standard set is lacking or it fails to understand, then people try to speculate their own thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Nobody's following any standard. Just like these Western people, mostly Christians. It is clearly stated in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill." They're simply killing. Their only business is killing. Bali Mardana: And divorce. Prabhupāda: And divorce. Bali Mardana: It says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Prabhupāda: So these rascals, how do they claim Christian? Eh? What do you think? They're not even category, in the category of dogs, cats, and they're claiming that "We are follower of Lord Jesus Christ." Sudāmā: But they also argue, Prabhupāda, that that law, "Thou shalt not kill," "I am not killing. The others are killing. But I am not." Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that very good argument? "I am not killing." Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he's eating. Prabhupāda: "I am not killing the snake. My stick is killing." Is that very good argument? (laughter) These rascals, all these rascals, they avoid. "I am not killing. I am not responsible. My, my, this stick has killed." Just see. If you go to the court: "Sir, I have not killed, my stick has killed." Just see how rascal they are. Prof. Wolfe: It is a question whether this "Thou shalt not kill" does not also include all our animal brothers and sisters. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prof. Wolfe: I think it should also include that. Because "Thou shalt not kill" is just not kill creatures, not only men. But apart from that, they do not even follow it where men come in. They kill. They do. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Sudāmā: He's saying... Hṛdayānanda: He's agreeing. Sudāmā: He's agreeing that "Thou shalt not kill" should also include all animals. Prof. Wolfe: It should. Prabhupāda: Yes, "Thou shalt not kill" means everything. Karandhara: They say that it does not include animals. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: They say, "That does not include animals." Prabhupāda: Why? Why they say? Karandhara: The animals have no soul. Prabhupāda: Why they say? This is rascaldom. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know. Sudāmā: But they say, "We are more superior than the animals. So therefore the animal's business is just to give us food." Prabhupāda: That, then, then, the superior nation can kill inferior nation. Why you have made the United Nations? Karandhara: It just encourage animalism, animal dominance. Prabhupāda: Animalism. That is... Then it becomes "Might is right," not "Right is might." Umāpati: In the Bible, Prabhupāda, there is a statement that many people follow, saying that, where Jehovah says, "Man shall have dominion over the animals, over the fishes and..." Prabhupāda: That is already there. But that does not mean man should kill them. Prof. Wolfe: And Jesus did not reverse it. Hṛdayānanda: Just like a man has dominion over his children. *Prabhupāda: Yes. A father*-mother has dominion over the children. Does it mean that he shall kill him? Umāpati: And eat them? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is all rascals. Hṛdayānanda: Then they will argue that we are, we are killing plants and grains, things like that. Prabhupāda: We are not killing anything. We are not killing anything. We devotees, we don't kill anything. Do you know that, or not? We don't kill anything. Hṛdayānanda: They'll say we eat vegetables, they will say. Prabhupāda: No vegetables, we don't kill. We don't kill. Umāpati: Well, vegetables are living entities also? Prabhupāda: Yes, but we don't kill them. We take their fruits and flowers. That does not mean it is killed. And that also we take it for Kṛṣṇa. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. So if there is any responsibility, that is Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. I am not, I am not responsible. Hṛdayānanda: Ah, I see. Karandhara: Fruits, vegetables and grains can be harvested without killing the plant. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, yes, it is not killing. Grains, after grains are ripe, the tree automatically dies. Prof. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't it so that we do not kill voluntarily. Because involuntarily, of course, we kill with every moment? We kill all the bacteria and we kill all the microbes and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Prof. Wolfe: And we cannot help doing that. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to become servant of Kṛṣṇa; you are not responsible. Just like government servant, police, and military kills, but he's not responsible. He's not responsible. Their business is killing, soldiers, but they are rewarded: "Oh, thank you very much. Take this title." Just Arjuna, just like Arjuna killed on the order of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa gave him cert..., bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: [Bg. 4.3] "You are My very dear friend. You are my devotee." So we have to act by the order of the Supreme. Then we are not responsible. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... *Umāpati: [break] ...I have, I have been reading some of the writings of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and I have come to an understanding from what I have read that there are, there is, there is a thing called tendency and, and... Well, in other words, the Vedas will teach a man if he is incapable of not killing, of, incapable of not killing, if he's addicted to meat*-eating, that there are rules whereby he can eat meat and thereby, under prescribed rules found in the Vedas. And thereby, his pious activity, he can raise to a higher level of understanding. And then there are rules that says, "Thou shalt not eat meat," and therefore one is eligible and must follow those restrictions. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the beginning... Umāpati: In the beginning. *Prabhupāda: Just like loke vyavāyāmiṣa*-madya-sevā nityā hi jantoḥ. There is tendency for eating meat. Therefore Vedas says that "You can eat meat, but..." Not only Vedas, in other scriptures also. The Jews also say. The Mohammedans also say that you can kill in the synagogue or in the, what is called, mosque, one animal. But not slaughterhouse. No religion prescribes that you open slaughterhouse. No. Prajāpati: It's always done under... Prabhupāda: That is restricted. Why it is advised to kill in the synagogue? Why not publicly? That means it is not wanted, but if you go on killing in the mosque, some day you may come to your sense, that you are a rascal; you are becoming responsible. But if you open slaughterhouse, that sense will never come. Hṛdayānanda: And not to kill the cow? *Prabhupāda: Especially not to kill cow. That animal is very, very important to the human society. According to the Vedic system, those who are meat*-eaters, they are recommended to kill some goat or some other animal. Not cow. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now, there's sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when these animals are sacrificed according to śāstric injunctions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think they are benefited. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are benefited. Karandhara: Also the animal also has the chance to come back in it's next life and kill the person that killed the animal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: So it's a great risk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Māṁ saḥ. Mām, mām means "me." Saḥ means "he". "He eats me." That is meat. Bali Mardana: In Nepal, they kill thousands of black goats and buffaloes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But never they kill cows. Bali Mardana: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall go this way? [break] Prajāpati: They had a great difficulty. Because of poor fund of knowledge in the śāstras, they formed doctrines, so many doctrines, where groups of men got together and said. "This is what we believe." And they have so many doctrines. Many people killed, fighting over these doctrines, and even the intelligent people will simply, instead of trying to find out about God, simply try to clarify these doctrines more and more. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say there are so many doctrines, that means that all of them are rascals. All of them are rascals. Otherwise, why there should be so many doctrines. Umāpati: There's only one doctrine. Bali Mardana: God is one. Prabhupāda: Yes, God is one. God is good. That is only one doctrine. And why there should be different doctrines? That means those who have created different doctrines means they're all rascals. Karandhara: Because they deviated from the central point and became preoccupied with their own speculation. Prabhupāda: That's all. That, that is not the process. First of all you have to know that God is unlimited. You are limited. How can you approach Him with your doctrine? Because you are limited, your ideas, your thinking, is limited. So how you can approach the unlimited? That is foolishness. Karandhara: These doctrines are simply veiled atheism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Rationalized atheism. Prabhupāda: They are called kutarkī. Kutarkī. "Bad logicians. Bad logicians." Kutarkī. Prajāpati: So much of it is based on politics, also, Prabhupāda. They... Prabhupāda: Yes, They, they, they're everything, motivated. So therefore they're imperfect. I have got... Just like this United Nations. They have gone there for becoming united, but they remain disunited forever. Just see. All the best men go there for becoming united, but forever they will remain disunited. Just see the practical. Because they're all imperfect, rascals, motivated. How they can be united? They cannot be united. Simply spoiling their time and public money. That's all. Simply spoiling. But public have no eyes to see them. They're also rascal. Therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that the whole society's now combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. The cheated want cheaters, and cheaters take the opportunity of the cheated. And that is the combination of the present day society. Somebody, they want to be cheated. And there are some cheaters. So the whole society is combination of cheater and cheated. Prof. Wolfe: That is why nobody wants to change anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Prof. Wolfe: No real reform. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Wolfe: Because they all want to go on cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. You see? That is the qualification of conditioned soul: To become a cheater, and to become cheated. This is the condition. To become a cheater is one of the conditions of material life. The four defects: He must commit mistake, he must be illusioned, and he must cheat, and his senses are imperfect. These are the four qualifications of the materialistic person. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also one of the qualities of bondage? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bondage? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are... Because they are, they have been bound up by the laws of nature, so these qualities they have developed. Prajāpati: But why are they so very puffed up and proud even with these defects, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That is the, that is the... Therefore we say they are rascals. Karandhara: Arrogant. Prabhupāda: Arrogant. They have no qualification; still, they are puffed up. That is rascaldom. *Bali Mardana: Prabhupāda, when the universes are emanated from the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu, they begin to expand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bali Mardana: Is the universe still expanding? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is scientific theory. Bali Mardana: Yeah. I think Einstein agreed with that also. Many scientists, they also have come to that conclusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Einstein followed the theory that the universe is expanding. So people accept it. Karandhara: While the exhaling is going on, the universe is expanding. In the inhaling... Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: : ...the universe is contracting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not contracting. They'll be finished. Destroyed. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This is the nature, material nature. It will grow. Just like the tree has grown. One day there will be no more, finished. Your body has grown and one day it will now finish. That is material nature. Similarly, this universe. It has grown, and one day it will be finished. Umāpati: Is darkness eternal, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: Is darkness eternal? Prabhupāda: No. Darkness is within this universe, not outside. Not outside. Karandhara: Darkness has no separate existence. Prabhupāda: Darkness means absence of light. That is darkness. It is the negation of light. Similarly, material life means forgetfulness of God. That's all... What is our spiritual life? We are simply trying to revive our understanding of God. That is spiritual life. And when you perfectly revive, that is spiritual. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...whatever you do, that is your defeat. Because you cannot see things in the proper perspective, therefore in darkness or in ignorance, whatever you do, that is your defeat. Therefore we see that so much advancement of education, civilization, but everything is defeat. Nobody's satisfied. Because it is defeat. It is not progress. It is defeat. Bali Mardana: We have to be led by someone who can see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, if you led by another blind man, what is your benefit? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. And our thankless task is... Just like a blind man going, falling into the ditch, we say, "No, no. Don't go there. You'll fall down." But he becomes angry, "Why you are instructing me?" That is our thankless task. We have to do it. How we can see that this blind man is going...? He'll immediately fall and die. How we can remain silent? We must have to say. That is our business, that "For want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are going to die. Take it. Be saved." But they do not like it. *Umāpati: The followers of Guru Maharaji, the so*-called... Prabhupāda: Well, don't talk of Guru Maharaji. He's a rascal. What is the use of talking about him? Umāpati: They say that... Prabhupāda: They say! They are fools and rascals. We are not concerned. Umāpati: (too faint) Hṛdayānanda: Oh, this way, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What do they say? Bali Mardana: They have no philosophy. It is useless to discuss. Prabhupāda: Everyone is nonsense. A set of nonsense. Umāpati: If we ask them what is the basis of their philosophy that they understand Maharaji to be a seer... Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: ...they have no answer. They have no... Prabhupāda: That is good question. Yes. On what standard you accept him? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to be cheated. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: People want to be cheated. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the society of cheater and cheated. Prajāpati: Sometimes great souls, they will cheat people also for their own benefit? Prabhupāda: Uh? But a great soul will never cheat. One who cheats, he's not great soul. He's the menial soul. Soul is not menial or great, but he's covered by māyā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Lord Buddha cheated the... Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Lord Buddha. Prabhupāda: Cheat, His cheating was perfect, because he cheated for the good. They did not believe in God, and God came, "Yes there is no God. Just follow me." But he's God. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So God can only do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: What about Śaṅkara's cheating? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaṅkara's cheating is also like that, because he was taking, he was accepting from the Buddhists. If he immediately says that "Lord Buddha was, cheated you," they'll not accept. Therefore he made some compromise. The Buddhist theory is "void," and he said, "No form." So it is almost the same. But he said, "There is Brahman." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. That much improvement. The same process. Just like one wants to eat meat. He is given some regulation, "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you do like this: Go to a mosque. On Eid day you can kill one animal." Or "You go to the synagogue under the protection of..." And our Hindu śāstra says, "Go to the Goddess Kālī's temple, and get a goat, black goat." That means under condition. If it is good thing, it would have been sanctioned, "Yes, you can do whatever you like." But it is not good. But if you say, "It is not good," he'll not accept. Therefore under some condition. [break] Prajāpati: There's a group called Christian Scientists. They say God is not a person. He's simply a principle, a principle of truth, beauty, all these, just qualities. Prabhupāda: But show the example, what is that principle? Karandhara: What is the meaning of principle without person? Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of principle? Show me. You are talking nonsense. Prajāpati: They say He's a principle is... Prabhupāda: As soon as you call "principle," there must be a person. There must be a person. Otherwise, there is no principle. Bali Mardana: Just like when you say, "law," there has to be a government. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to accept one law*-maker. Bali Mardana: They say, "the law of nature," but they refuse to acc... *Prabhupāda: Any law, as soon as you say, "law", you must have to accept a law*-maker. Any law. Otherwise, there is no... Just like the law is: "When there is red light, you must stop." You don't see any person, but if you don't stop, then you go to a person who will prosecute you. You don't see the person here, but if you violate, you'll have to go to a person who will fine you, "You rascal, you have done this." So ultimately a puruṣa, person. Karandhara: [break] ...just for atheists who want to be a little pious, but they're not... Prabhupāda: Yes, little, little moralist. Karandhara: Yes. Moral atheists. Prajāpati: In the West, there's what's known as Protestant Ethic, which means you work hard like a dog and a cat. Karandhara: And enjoy, enjoy the fruits of your labor. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is done by the pigs. Whole day, finding out "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he eats some stool, gets some fat, "Where is sex? Never mind, mother, sister, or daughter. Come on, sex." This is pig life, pig civilization. It is not human civilization. This kind of behavior is found amongst the pigs, amongst the dogs. Do you think we have to create a human society like the pigs' society? At the present moment, they're eating anything and everything like pigs, and they're having sex with anyone, never mind. So it is a pig society. There is no discrimination. [break] ...the most popular thing is this drinking, eating meat and drinking wine. Is that to be accepted because it is very popular? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they use transcendental meditation... Prabhupāda: What is this transcendental meditation? They do not know. The another cheater, and he's big amongst the cheated. That's all. Bali Mardana: There's nothing transcendental about it. Yaśomatīnandana: But they call it "transcendental." Prabhupāda: They can call anything. Just like... Just like... Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's now taught almost over all of the universities now here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have... Hṛdayānanda: But the, but the sincere people don't believe it. When we go to the colleges, many students come to us and say, "These people are cheating us." They know it. Karandhara: They don't even talk about God, transcendental meditation. Satsvarūpa: Creative Intelligence. Bali Mardana: Psychological. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students know they're cheaters. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it has been accepted all over the country. Hṛdayānanda: Not by the intelligent. Bali Mardana: They're tricking the government. Prabhupāda: Not... I don't accept. We don't accept. Why do they say "all over the country"? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges. Prabhupāda: No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have departments. Prabhupāda: They why they are complaining? Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students all criticize it. Many, many people criticize it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a big pamphlet. Bali Mardana: They've made... Prabhupāda: What is that meditation? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes... (indistinct) ...I think. You have to pay some money for that. Hṛdayānanda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money. Bali Mardana: But they don't, they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: They why "Transcendental"? Bali Mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have so many scientific tests like blood tests, the blood, circulation of the blood is improved, the mental condition is improved. Prabhupāda: That is all material. That has nothing to do with spiritual. Blood is not spiritual. It is material. Bali Mardana: It may have some material advantage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Blood is there in the cats and dogs also. That is also circulatlng. Karandhara: A combination of psychotherapy and (indistinct). Bali Mardana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No,... Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they are saying... Prabhupāda: Even an animal, the blood circulation is better. Therefore he's better than transcendental meditation. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they're saying that, uh... *Prabhupāda: If the transcendental meditation is concerned with the blood circulation, you'll find in the animals, the blood circulation is first*-class. Therefore above transcendental. Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for that reason. Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: In the same regard, they admire animals for... Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, actually, transcendental meditation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these people are saying that if I compare with a man who is practicing transcendental meditation with a normal man, then... They compare different, these tests, they're called physiological tests. Prabhupāda: Yes. That physiological test, you can do between man and animal. The animal will be found better. Their circulation of blood is most natural. Karandhara: Also the state of mind which they claim is beneficial, the same state of mind can be reached more quickly by smoking opium. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Well. Bali Mardana: We know from experience. Karandhara: Yes. Calm state of mind, emitting alpha rays, alpha brain waves. Smoke opium you get the same thing. Hṛdayānanda: Really? No, the intelligent students all know it's cheating. Umāpati: They say that's an easy way. Karandhara: Why not take the easy way? Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "transcendental meditation," but it is not actually transcendental. Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the... Prabhupāda: Bring any student of transcendental meditation and talk with our student. He'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test. Hṛdayānanda: You're right, Prabhupāda. They're cheaters. I talked to one of their leaders at a college, and I, I defeated all their points. Then they simply became embarrassed and said, "Well, I don't want to talk any more." And they went away. Prabhupāda: That's good. (laughter) Karandhara: They made this one machine to test how advanced they were. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Karandhara: It had a light bulb on it. So they put a thing on the person's head, and when he's in transcendental meditation, if the light bulb goes on, then he's in samādhi. So one man came and smoked opium and put the machine on his head and the light stayed on. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They are speaking of "transcendental," but testing by mundane. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Transcendental perfection is tested by mundane instruments. Hṛdayānanda: Boy, that's contradiction. Bali Mardana: They don't ever use the word "trans..." They just call it "TM." Prajāpati: [break] ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, is what's called "linguistic analysis." Prabhupāda: Hm. Prajāpati: So they don't want to find out really what God is, but simply what do you mean when you use the word "God". Prabhupāda: We mean God is great. That's all. There is no need of linguistic analysis. One word is sufficient. God is great. Karandhara: They would say the psychology of that is that you're suffering from an inferiority complex. Prabhupāda: Eh. You are inferior. You are being kicked every moment by the laws of nature. How do you claim that you are superior? Why you are covering? Because you are kicked by the laws of material nature. Umāpati: There's no complex. Prabhupāda: There is no question... You have to cover yourself. Bali Mardana: They say that... Prabhupāda: How do you say you are superior? You are inferior. As soon as you cover your body, you are inferior. Karandhara: They say, "Well, we, I made this hat. So whatever inferiorities I have, I can conquer them by my intelligence." Prabhupāda: But that intelligence, superior intelligence will never come to you. You'll always remain inferior. Hṛdayānanda: What about death? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always inferior. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death. They're trying to prolong. Prabhupāda: "They're trying." Svarūpa Dāmodara: A bit longer. Prabhupāda: Death. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ultimately, find there is no death. Prabhupāda: No, what...? Death is... What do you mean by death? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Losing the material body. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you are losing every day, every moment. You are not today what you were yesterday, that you are losing. So, how can you defeat? You are, every moment you are being defeated. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are some theories now. By turning the temperature, by cooling down little more than the body temperature, you can live longer. Prabhupāda: Well, you can live little longer, but you cannot live forever. That is not possible. Umāpati: They're freezing the body now, Prabhupāda, in the hopes that sometime in the future science will be able to make them come back to life. Prabhupāda: That is all future. That is all future. Hṛdayānanda: They take so much money for it. Prabhupāda: It is not practical. Karandhara: The trouble is when they lower the body temperature, the sensitivity is lowered. Therefore enjoyment is also lowered. So it's a question of living for a few more years and enjoying less or enjoying more and living less. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the government is very kind to them. They supply money to do research on that, thousands of dollars. Prabhupāda: And what is the government? Combination of some rascals. You are a rascal. You vote another rascal, and they combine together and become government. That's all. None of them are intelligent. I am rascal. So I must vote another rascal. And all those combination of rascals become government. And they cheat another, the rascals who voted them. That's all. Therefore it is a society of cheater and cheated. Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for letting us walk with you this morning! Prabhupāda: Eh! Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Prabhupāda gets in car) (end) Morning Walk -- December 7, 1973, Los Angeles Prajāpati: ...last hundred and fifty years, one of the major problems of western theologians has been the relationship between reason and faith. They've been seeking to understand faith through reason but they have not been able to come to any terms of the relationship between their reasoning abilities and faith. So there's been like a leap, almost a rejection of any kind of... Prabhupāda: No. Just like we are walking on this street, so there is relation. This path is made for my walking. This is the relation with this road and myself. This is not made for... For animals also. But at least, we can take it is made for man. So for walking of man this road is made. So this is my relation. So in this way, everything you search out, you'll find out some relation. Is it not? Try to understand this first. Everything you take... Just like here is a microphone. There is my relation: I talk and it is recorded. So where is the difficulty to find out relationship with everything. Is there any difficulty? Prajāpati: They see one, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The theologians perceive when they see that reason and faith are in two realms... Prabhupāda: This is reason, that everything we are using, there is a relationship. How can you deny it? If I have got relationship with everything, then I have got some relationship with God also. Try to understand this fact. Hmm? Have you got relationship with God or not? If we have got relationship with everything of God's creation, then why not with God? Answer, any one of you. Why you are silent? Hṛdayānanda: Because you're right, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. We must have some relationship with God. Karandhara: Their point is that they can only have faith in God. Their reason tells them there is no God. Prabhupāda: There is no question of faith, it must be. Faith may be false. There must be. Because we have got relationship with everything, therefore ultimately everything is created by God. Satsvarūpa: That requires faith. Prabhupāda: It is not faith; it is fact. Faith may be wrong. Faith may be right or wrong, but fact is fact. Karandhara: Well, when they say fact, they mean what they can perceive through their senses grossly. *Prabhupāda: Yes, with senses, senses. That is... Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we have got relationship with God and senses, our senses. That is hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When the senses are engaged with the Supreme, in relationship, that is called bhakti. It is a question of senses. It is not vague. We apply everything, we go with our senses. Just like the leg, we go, take our legs to the temple. We use our tongue for glorifying, for eating the prasādam. Every senses. That is bhakti. It is not sensuous, but engaging the senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses. Karandhara: But they say that's a faith. Prabhupāda: That's not faith, that's fact. Karandhara: They say when we offer prasādam, it's just a faith that a God accepts it because you cannot see God eating. Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot see, I see. I am not a fool like you. (laughter) I can see; therefore I offer. But you cannot see. So I have to open your eyes. You come to me. That is our propaganda. You are blind. You are suffering with cataract. I shall operate and you'll see also. Yaśomatīnandana: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You don't see, that does not mean I don't see. Why do you accept like that? You may be fool rascal. Karandhara: They want their team of scientists to see it. *Prabhupāda: Scientist means another rascal. Big rascal. You are a rascal, and your bigger scientist, he's a big rascal. He's a big rascal. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. You know this verse? Explain. Hṛdayānanda: People who are like hogs, dogs, camels and asses glorify nondevotees. *Prabhupāda: Yes, the, anyone nondevotee, he's a big camel, or big dog or big swine, like that. So these people who are praising them, they are also cats and dogs and swines, and the leader is also big swine. That's all. That is the difference. The so*-called scientist, philosopher, is a big animal. That's all. But he is animal. Karandhara: They say we're just dreamers. Prabhupāda: Dreamer? Karandhara: Dreamers. That we make up fantasies about God and heaven, but actually, Prabhupāda: Why fancies? You have no brain to understand; therefore you say, "fancy" Karandhara: Well, their common ground of objectivity is what they can perceive with the senses. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand... Here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water*-direct perception. Who has made it? Karandhara: Well, they say, "If it was made by God, we'd be able to see him just like the sand." Prabhupāda: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the śāstra says, "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes? Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supramundane. They only consider the mundane vision. Prabhupāda: Yes, supramundane, everything is supramundane. Because... How do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me. "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses. Karandhara: Well, they will admit that, but they say, "Still, we cannot... Even though we are ignorant of some things, we still can't accept what we can't see." Prabhupāda: Why? If you are ignorant, you have to accept. Karandhara: Because what we're told may be wrong. Prabhupāda: May be wrong, that is your misfortune. But the process is that where your senses cannot approach, you have to hear from authority. That is the process. But if you don't approach authority, if you approach a cheater, that is your misfortune. But the process is, where your senses cannot act, you have to approach authority. That is the process. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want experimental knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is experimental. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, "It cannot be proved." Prabhupāda: No, why not proved? Just like I gave you the... this water, this sand, it is practical. Now you must know somebody has made it. Karandhara: Well, the difficulty is, in a group of atheists, you can't prove God no matter what you say. Prabhupāda: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are... Those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge. Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits. Prabhupāda: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody. Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him." Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him. Dr. Wolfe: We want to. *Prabhupāda: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is the injunction. Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith. Prabhupāda: Not faith, practical. Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru. Prabhupāda: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible. Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru? *Prabhupāda: No, if he is sincere he'll get. Yes. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Guru and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He'll give you the right person. Bali Mardana: So if you are not completely sincere, you might get a Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bali Mardana: If you're not completely sincere, you might get someone else. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you want to be cheated, you go to the cheater. That's all. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Kṛṣṇa is intelligent, superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He'll cheat you. He'll cheat you. First*-class cheat, Kṛṣṇa. But if you're actually sincere, then He'll give you the right thing. That is stated in the Bhag..., mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "Everything is coming from Me: smṛtiḥ, remembrance, and forgetfulness." If you are a cheater, Kṛṣṇa will give you such intelligence, you'll forget Kṛṣṇa forever. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, so it is so, "Birds of a feather flock together." The cheaters flock together. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Karandhara: The thing is that our philosophy is as supportable as theirs, but because they are in control they have the dominance. Prabhupāda: Who has dominance? Karandhara: The atheists. Prabhupāda: Atheists? (laughs) One kick of māyā, he's finished. (laughter) All dominance. One this kick his dominance all finished, in one second. (laughter) No dominance. That is māyā. They are under control, but thinking that "We are free." That is called māyā, that is called māyā. They are under full control but they are thinking, "We are free." That is māyā. Mohinī, mohinīṁ śritāḥ. What is that verse? Āsurīṁ mohinīm? Hṛdayānanda: Rākṣasīm. Moghāśā mogha, *Prabhupāda: Prakṛtiṁ mohinīm. Moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. Because they are bewildered, all their hopes will be frustrated. Moghāśāḥ. Because they are rascals, āsurīm, atheists, all their hopes will be frustrated. This is stated. And that is being done. They are making so big, big plan; now it is going to be frustrated. Just see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, they don't want to come to their senses. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. And why they remain rascal? Because they are duṣkṛtinaḥ, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. So you are now feeling all right? Paramahaṁsa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much. *Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rascal means that... You know the story, that Kālidāsa, a great poet, he was a great rascal. So... It is a long story. So he was sitting on the branch of a tree and cutting. So some gentleman: "Why you are cutting? You'll fall down." "No, no, I'll not fall down." But when he fell down, then he went to that gentleman, "How did you know, sir, that I shall fall down?" Then they concluded, "Here is a rascal number one." (laughter) "Here is a rascal number one." They do not know that they are going to hell. That is rascaldom. By their so*-called scientific advancement, philosophy, education, they are going to hell. That they do not know. Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. This is the definition of rascaldom: one who does not know where he is going. If somebody goes in this way straight, and you say "Don't go!" "No! Why shall I not go?" He's rascal. (laughter) He's rascal. And the another rascal, "Yes, yes, you can go, it is all right." Yata mata tata patha. "As many ways you manufacture, it is all right. You can go this way." He's another rascal. This is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we bring them to their senses? *Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious and everything will be solved. How we are speaking? Because we have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti, as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, all this māyā, misconception, will go. You'll become right person, in knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to become perfect man. Because there is guidance, the perfect guidance, so he becomes perfect. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] This is the statement in Bhāgavata. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram: [SB 7.5.30] "Because they cannot control their senses, therefore they are making progress towards the darkest region of hell." Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita: "And repeatedly chewing the chewed." They make one plan. It is frustrated. Again make another plan. That is frustrated. Again make another plan. But they will never agree to accept that these plans are all useless. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Repeatedly chewing the chewed, chewing the chewed. The same woman, same vagina, and that is their pleasure. Bas. At home, and in street or nightclub and theater*-the same vagina. That's all. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they would say that that is braveness. they are brave in trying again and again. Prabhupāda: Yes, they must say. That is their rascaldom. One who goes, braveness, go to the Pacific Ocean and die, and go to hell. That is their braveness. That is their braveness. They are bravely going to hell. That's all. There is a story, palavarne boi nate(?). One man is chasing another man. So the man who is chased, he's asked, "Why you are fleeing away, fleeing away?" So, "Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not flee? Why shall not go? Am I afraid of you." He's fleeing out of fear, but still, he says, "Am I afraid of you? Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not? Why shall I stop?" This is the position. "Bravely I am going to hell. Why shall I stop? I am brave." This is going on. Hṛdayānanda: It's crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes, crazy. This is stated: Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, why has it taken so long for a pure devotee to come to the West? Has the West been so sinful that no pure devotee has come before Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: (laughs) Don't be sorry. At that time you were so sinful that you could not receive a pure devotee. Karandhara: Yes. Once in a lecture a lady asked you why hadn't you come sooner, and you just said, "Well, you weren't ready for me." Prabhupāda: Yes, "Because you were not ready." (laughs) Yes, I told, yes. Now the Western boys, the descendants of the Western people, they are fortunate; therefore they receive Kṛṣṇa. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that "These people are suffering so much; let some devotees come here." So you are all devotees. You have come to join together. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, during the progress of evolutionary process, suppose if the individual soul falls down from the human platform, the individual soul falls down from the human platform to some other lower species, but in the course of again evolutionary process, at some stage along the path he'll come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is this...? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is the process. Evolution means to come to that end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is real evolution. If one misses the chance, then again falls down. But the natural progress is that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But ultimately he will come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimately everyone will come to Kṛṣṇa. Not Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but Kṛṣṇa. At the end of this world, devastation, they enter into the body of Kṛṣṇa. They remain there. Hṛdayānanda: That wouldn't be very good for a devotee. Prabhupāda: Huh? But they have no sense. These birds are feedies(?) or their bodily extension is so much. I think they're feedies(?). Hṛdayānanda: They're what. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What? Very nice. Prabhupāda: Just see how they are experienced. They're not afraid of the ocean, although they are very small. They know how to save him. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Kṛṣṇa is there within the heart. They are giving, "Now get off." They immediately get off. Hṛdayānanda: Boy. That's Viṣṇu within their heart? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...nice, very broad and clean. [break] ...can overflood the whole area, but no. "Up to this, no more, sir." Under whose order they are working? There must be some control. Prajāpati: They would say it's under the control of the moon. The moon controls the tides. Prabhupāda: Yes, the moon is controlled by whom? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say, "By nature." Prabhupāda: Nature is controlled by whom? Bali Mardana: Who is controlling the moon? *Prabhupāda: That is answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Nature is controlled by Me." Therefore He is absolute controller. But He is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is absolute controller. Just like a, what is called? Magnetic stone? Hṛdayānanda: Magnet? Prabhupāda: Magnet, it attracts. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Iron filings. Prabhupāda: Iron filings. But who has given this power to this magnetic stone? You cannot give. Karandhara: They say, "It's just there by nature's arrangement." Prabhupāda: That is answered: "Nature is controlled by God." Karandhara: Well, they prefer to leave nature as nondescript. When they say or designate as "nature," they prefer to leave that nondescript, nonspecific. Prabhupāda: Why? That means insufficient knowledge. They do not wish to describe it because your foolishness will be discovered. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that "I can do that. That is done by nature." Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the case of a magnet, suppose if I take a piece of iron and if I magnetize it by electrical current, it will act as a magnet. So they say..., Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying to make it. Prabhupāda: Again "trying." It is already there. What is the use of your trying? The same thing. Already dog is barking, but one is trying to imitate. That's all. But people will go to see the imitation barking by purchasing ticket, and the real barking they'll neglect. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called, "new discovery." Prabhupāda: What is that new discovery? Barking is already there. What is new discovery? You are simply imitating barking, that's all. Barking is already there. What is discovery? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that imitation is just new. Prabhupāda: No. Imitation is flattery. That's all. Imitation is the best way of flattery. That's all. Karandhara: Actually they are proving our point because as persons they can imitate the Supreme person, but He made the original. If they were not persons or living entities, they couldn't imitate God's creation. Prabhupāda: Now, in your laboratory, by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, if you produce one ounce of water, what is your credit? Here is vast water already. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say it was not done before in the lab. Prabhupāda: It is done already; otherwise where the water came? You do not know who did it. That is your ignorance. Hṛdayānanda: So it just enviousness. They're just envious. Prabhupāda: Foolishness. Enviousness means one must be able. But they are not able. Simply foolishness. Bali Mardana: They have created artificial gems, like... Prabhupāda: Just like you are a powerful man. I am a powerful man. I become envious. That is allowed. But I'm not powerful, I'm trying to imitate you, it is foolishness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they're saying that God didn't give me all the knowledge to do, how to make this water. *Prabhupāda: Because He wanted you to remain a fool. He wanted. Because you are atheist, He wanted that you shall remain ever fool. That is God's business. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān yoniṣu [Bg. 16.19]. These atheistic class, they remain always fools. Kṛṣṇa gives him birth in such a family, in such a country, in such a posi..., that he remains fools. He remains always fool. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, it's like the barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. It's like barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. Because the materialistic person, they claim to be expert of material science, and still, they want to give opinion on the spiritual science. Prabhupāda: No, no, they are not even expert of material science. They are expert in bluffing others things with jugglery of words. That's it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they're saying that it was not done before, like telephones and these airplanes and these new discoveries. *Prabhupāda: Well, there were better telephones. You do not know it. Just like Sañjaya is sitting with his master, Dhṛtarāṣṭra, and he's relaying all the war affairs going on. He asked, kim akurvata sañjaya: [Bg. 1.1] "What did they do?" But he was sitting in the room. Where is your that telephone? It is television within the heart. He is seeing everything and relay. Bhagavad*-gītā, don't you see? Sañjaya uvāca, dhṛtarāṣṭra uvāca. Dhṛtarāṣṭra inquired, "Now, after meeting my sons and nephews, what they are doing?" And he's relaying, "Now Duryodhana is going to see Droṇācārya. Droṇācārya says like this. Bhīṣmadeva says..." How does he say within the room? But you know that science? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will say that that was only possible..., Prabhupāda: He will say... They may say, but we are putting some fact. They may say all nonsense. We are not going to accept that. Karandhara: Some of them say, "Well we've improved on nature. By making things like plastics and medicines, we've improved nature." Prabhupāda: All right. Very improvement. People were eating in silver plates, golden plates, and you have improved by plastic plates. (laughter) This rascaldom can be understood by another rascal. We are not going to do. Hṛdayānanda: The plastic is a great problem because they can't get rid of it. Plastic has become a great problem because there is no way to dispose of it. So it just piles up and piles up, and they can't get rid of it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the future they are going to make plastic houses. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Transparent, you can see everything from the house. Prabhupāda: So what is the credit there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that is an improvement. Bali Mardana: But the plastic depends on oil. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are going to hell and still they are thinking, "improvement." This is their foolishness. Foolish means that, that he's going to hell, but he's thinking, "improving." This is their... Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, wouldn't it be more sincere if these people, these scientists said, "We don't want to be taken out of this dream, that with our senses and with all the machines built on senses we will be able to make it"? But they don't want to be taken out of that dream. Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness. Dr. Wolfe: They don't want to admit it even. Prabhupāda: Why not? They have to admit Just like I gave you the example that you cannot see how many stars are there, but there are. If you say, "I don't see it, I don't believe it," that is your foolishness. That is your foolishness. You have to admit that your senses are limited. They are not perfect. That is the four defects of the conditioned soul: he commits mistake, he is illusioned, he cheats, and his senses are imperfect. Dr. Wolfe: But they say they try and try again. Prabhupāda: No, try, how? How can you? You are diseased person. Suppose you are suffering from cataract disease. So you can try, try, try, try. Will you be cured? You'll never be cured. You must go to a physician. He'll operate, surgical operation. Then there is chance of seeing. You cannot, trying, trying, trying, trying. Then you go on trying, but you'll never be cured. Dr. Wolfe: But that is just what they do not want to accept. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. They do not take good advice. That is foolishness. Foolishness means mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakipaya na śāntaye (?). Mūrkha, a rascal, if you give him good advice, he'll be angry. Just like a serpent, if you bring the serpent and if you tell the serpent, "My dear friend serpent, you live with me. I shall give you daily nice food, milk and banana. You'll be very pleased." So the result will be that his poison will increase. One day he'll say, "Phaḥ! Phaḥ!" (laughter) So these rascals are like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they won't give up hopes. They are always hopeful. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Their hopes are being frustrated every moment; still, they are hoping. That is foolishness. Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I once was distributing some of your literature to a library, and the librarian said, "If these are five thousand years old, where is the proof of this? Do we have the copies that were written down five thousand years ago?" Prabhupāda: This is the proof. This is the proof. You see. But if you close your eyes... Just like if somebody says, "Now there is sunrise, light." And if he is in darkness, he says, "Where is the proof there is light?" So, "You please come out and see." So you read it and there will be proof. Karandhara: Even if you don't accept it's five thousand years old, that doesn't diminish the value of the books. *Prabhupāda: Simply read it. There is no question of five thousand, ten thousand, old or new. Just see what is the knowledge there. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata*-saṁhitām [SB 1.7.6]. Because they are fools, for them this literature is made. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. [break] ...accept Bhāgavata, then their Darwin's theory is finished. Darwin's theory is finished. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they accept that there is a spirit soul, then Darwin's theory is also finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spirit soul, they don't like to accept it. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Prajāpati: The theologians are saying that if we say man is simply soul, he is not his body, we are not accepting the whole man. The whole man means soul and body together. Prabhupāda: Yes, we say, body, same... Karandhara: Body, mind and soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Gross matter, subtle matter, and the spirit. Prajāpati: That is whole man. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is whole creation. Why man? Everything. [break] Nature is not under his control; he is under nature's control. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are foolish enough to try it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are going to make houses on the moon now. On the surface of the moon they'll make houses in a few years. Prabhupāda: What is the benefit? Karandhara: There's plenty of space on the earth. Why do they have to go to the moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because it was not done before, so they want to show it to the people. They want to show the power of science. Prabhupāda: Power of science means imitating the barking of the dog. That's all. Dog is already barking, but they imitate and they become scientists. That's all. This is their power. How to imitate. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will say, "We are more advanced." So they can imitate. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. But we are not so fools that we shall waste our time for imitation. We have got already real thing. Why shall I go to the imitation. Karandhara: Their imitations are cheap. Like a sputnik, how does it compare with a planet? Prabhupāda: Not cheap! Their imitation... They are going to the... They're spending millions and millions. It is very dear, costly. First thing is imitation, and that imitation is very, very costly. Very expensive. So that is their foolishness. They'll be satisfied with the imitation which is very costly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They work so hard. Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a nice incident. There is a scientist from France, Pasteur. When he was about to be married, the same day, he forgot his own marriage day because he was working in his laboratory, doing experiments. So one of his friends reminded him, "Oh, Pasteur, your marriage day is today so you come out from the lab and you have to go there." Then he went out and got married, Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali proverb, yāṅra loke bie naya, para lokera ghumnaya: (?) "The man who is to be married, he has forgotten, and the neighbors, they are not sleeping, 'Oh, that man will be married. That man will be married.' " But he has forgotten. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So people are saying that "See how sincerely he's working. Take his example." Prabhupāda: Yes. So who is not sincerely working? He's working for some money. That's all. So everyone is working for money. What is the difference? If he's not paid for that, he'll not work. Just like a dog is working for the master, for the bread. That's all. So he's working not for himself, not for others, but for his money. Or some ambition. Prestige. That's right. [break] ...where? On the beach you are seeing? Svarūpa Dāmodara: About ten miles from here. Prabhupāda: In Bombay also, therefore it is two miles, three miles from Juhu. [break] Prajāpati: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's a best seller called, "I'm OK, You're OK," and the purport of this book is that if we simply pat each other on the back and tell each other how nice each other are, everything will be all right. Prabhupāda: Yes, mutual praising society, mutual praising society. Karandhara: Mutual admiration society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the twenties there was a doctor in Switzerland, Couet(?), who had the same method. "I'm better and better every day," and he had thousands of people who came there and nothing was heard of him ten years later. Bali Mardana: Till he died. Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: They must neglect because foolish, they cannot solve. They're rascal. They cannot solve. They're simply pleased with some what is called, temporary success. That's all. The ultimate success is not the... Professor Einstein, he was very big scientist but he could not solve his death. He was to die. Hṛdayānanda: Boy! That's amazing. Prabhupāda: He has to die. He could not solve his death and he's a big scientist. What kind of scientist is that? Hṛdayānanda: Boy! Prabhupāda: The real problem remain unsolved. Devotee: ...death is blindness. Prabhupāda: Ha? No. That is rascaldom. They do not see the real problem. Neither they're able to solve it. They're simply happy by some... Just like child. The child, he wants to play whole day long. He does not care. Like that. This human life is meant for making a perfect solution of all problems. That they do not care. There is some temporary benefit. They're very much busy and known as scientist. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they'll say that it is ideal. That cannot be attained. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it can be attained, then you do not know. Then you are foolish. You say that cannot be attained. But I say it is possible. Śāstra states, Kṛṣṇa says*-the whole thing is discovered. Simply understand Kṛṣṇa and next life you become eternal. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply if you go to our temple and see Kṛṣṇa, you'll be devotee. You don't do anything. Don't talk anything. Simply see Kṛṣṇa. It is so easy. You simply see Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam and live comfortably and next life you'll go to back to home back to Godhead. Yaśomatīnandana: Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. Prabhupāda: Yes, very good. Yes. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam. Another facility, if you cannot finish your Kṛṣṇa job, then whatever you have done, that is permanent. Next life you begin from there. Nothing is lost. Abhayam, abhayam, permanent. Hṛdayānanda: That's a wonderful offer by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: What does it mean to finish? Prabhupāda: Finish? Finish means fully, you do not know anything except Kṛṣṇa. That is finish. Bali Mardana: Pure devotee. *Prabhupāda: Pure devotee, yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He had no other business than Kṛṣṇa, everything. That is the ideal perfection. [break] Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda*-viraheṇa me. Everything is vacant without Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. [break] No, that determination will come automatically when you are advanced. Hṛdayānanda: It's wonderful to hear you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, either I talk or you talk. (laughs) He's wonderful. A sweetmeat is sweet. Either you give or I give, it is sweet. [break] ...your scientist will try to understand that "Kṛṣṇa has given us the metal, Kṛṣṇa has given us the intelligence, now we have prepared nice airship, and Kṛṣṇa has given us the sky to fly." Appreciate like that. Then your Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Actually that is the fact. If there was no sky, where would you fly your scientific advancement? And if there was no metal, how could you manufacture? If you had no intelligence, how could you do it? So everything is given by Kṛṣṇa, and you are denying Kṛṣṇa. How fool you are, just see? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply accept that "Everything is given by Kṛṣṇa. We are utilizing it." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bali Mardana: Only when Kṛṣṇa takes it away, then they turn to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: "Save us." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wants that much, that you accept that "All facilities are given by Me," that much. Yaśomatīnandana: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, actually that is the fact. But that is done, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. Those who are rascals, they do it*-they will have to do it-but after many, many births, not immediately. They'll suffer. They'll have to go through so many species of life, and one day they'll come to the understanding, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: 'Everything is Kṛṣṇa.' " Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: "That mahātmā is very rare, very rare." Yaśomatīnandana: When the Indians come to the temple, Prabhupāda, I tell them that mahātmā is not manufactured or rubber stamped. Here Kṛṣṇa says what mahātmā means. I say that anybody who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is mahātmā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: And anybody who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, however great he may be in people's eyes, but he's not mahātmā. Prabhupāda: No. Hṛdayānanda: Durātmā. *Prabhupāda: He's a duṣkṛtina. Demon. Yes. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15], moghāśā mogha-karmāṇaḥ. [break] So what is your theory? Do you think that God is under theory? Prajāpati: They think so. They concoct. They make up God. Prabhupāda: So if you make up God, then is that God? If God is subjected to your manufacturing process, so what kind of God He is? Prajāpati: Largely they've come to realize that, so they've turned away from even discussing God. They use their theology simply to make comments about the world situation. Theology today, they do not even discuss deity. Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes they argue that "God has revealed Himself within my heart, so I don't need to read any books because I have a special connection with God." Prabhupāda: But your revelation and my revelation different. Why? Hṛdayānanda: "Because God has so many different aspects that He reveals a different aspect to everyone." Prabhupāda: That is their argument. Then what is the standard of that aspect? Just like in the material world we see, somebody richer than others. This is also aspect of material situation. So if one is millionaire, he is better than a person who has got a few coins. So similarly, your realization of God and my realization of God, different. So I may be greater realized than you. What do you say, theologian? Prajāpati: Well, today, Prabhupāda most of the literature is written on subjects of death of God, an eclipse of God, the fact that the people in general, it's a secular society and no one is even discussing God. Prabhupāda: That means they have failed. After discussing when they could not find out actually what is God, they have given up the idea. Failure. Prajāpati: They think of it as actually a maturity. "We needed to talk about God when we were infants, and now we are advanced." Prabhupāda: So maturity, you must give what is that standard God, if it is mature. Mature means you must give the real standard. That is mature. But if nobody of you can give the what is the real standard, then how it is mature? Bali Mardana Prabhu, what do you think? Mature means the final conclusion. Just like in scientific theory. All the scientists come into conclusion, "Yes, this is the..." Bali Mardana: It's just an excuse because they don't know. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, they don't know. That's it. Karandhara: No, they've just become mature atheists. Prabhupāda: Mature atheists, yes. Karandhara: Even though... at most they say God just means goodness or truth. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is that goodness. They have no knowledge what is the standard of goodness. Somebody is cutting the throat; he's also good. And somebody is very sober; he is also good. So what is the standard of goodness? Karandhara: That's what they argue about, write books on. Mostly they make vague references and emotional pleas for goodness and honesty. Prabhupāda: No, what is that honesty and what is that goodness? They must give some definition. Prajāpati: You've summed it up very nicely, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you call them just jugglers of words. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, what is the standard of goodness according to your scientific view? Hṛdayānanda: They say, "Just don't... If someone does what he likes and doesn't hurt anyone else, that's good." Karandhara: They don't do that. Hṛdayānanda: "If I just do my thing for God but I don't hurt anyone, that's good." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no definition for standard of goodness. Prabhupāda: No. No, no many times they... Hṛdayānanda: Many times they say that... Prabhupāda: They have no standard. But we have got definition of God. That is the difference. What is our definition? Satsvarūpa: Supreme controller. Prajāpati: That person who is complete with all six opulences... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: ...in total fullness. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is God. Hṛdayānanda: Bhagavān. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavān. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyāḥ, jñāna*-vairāgyayoś caiva ṣaḍ iti bhagavān gaṇaḥ. (?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that is imagination. *Prabhupāda: Why imagination? It is not imagination. Just like I am a man. I have got hundred dollars. He has got thousand dollars. He has got four thousand or five thousand. In this way we see comparative. One is richer than other, other, other. Then why there shall not be somebody who is richest of all? We see practically. How can you deny? That is God. Power, strength*-you are stronger than me, he is stronger than you, he is stronger, like that. But if we find somebody, that nobody is stronger than him, he is God. Education, beauty, all the six opulences, you compare. Because we see comparative, so there must be somebody ideal, above whom there is no more education, no more wisdom, no more beauty. That is God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they are hesitant to accept. Prabhupāda: Why they should be hesitant? That is their foolishness. We see comparative, superlative, in our experience. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the concept of God is just imagination. *Prabhupāda: Imagination? That is atheism. Why imagination? This is the definition of God, that in these six items*-richness, beauty, wisdom, strength, influence... So we see, practical world, that there are superlative, comparative. So when it comes to the topmost superlative degree, that is God. Karandhara: They have a system which they call scientific integrity, which, roughly translated, means anything they can't perceive through their gross senses they can't accept as being a fact. Prabhupāda: This is... Anyone can... Any child can accept. What is that? Karandhara: Well, they say, If there was a God, He would be perceivable to everyone, whether they believed in Him or not, He would be so obvious. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is available. This is common formula, that we see comparative study of these six opulences. When it is topmost, that is God. Karandhara: But they say, "We cannot literally see that embodied in any one person." *Prabhupāda: No, you can see, but you have no eyes to see. Suppose there are so many richest person. We have not seen, but they must be admitted. Just like in your country, Rockefeller. So it does not mean*-one has not heard about Rockefeller-therefore it does not exist. Karandhara: But Rockefeller is constantly having to prove and assert his power. Prabhupāda: No, prove to you, prove to me, but there are many who does not know. So that does not mean the Rockefeller is not existing. Your limited sense cannot approach. Therefore you cannot say that the thing is not existing. That is another rascaldom. Karandhara: Well, on the other hand, they say what you can't say you... Prabhupāda: No, I can't say? Why I cannot say? I am saying, that this man is richer than this man. This man is richer than this man. You go on, go on, go on, studying. But if you cannot study, you cannot approach, that is your inefficiency. But there is existing actually. This man is greater than this man, this man is greater than... That's all. But who is that highest educated... That you do not see. That does not mean He is not existing. There must be, because the step is going on. How can you deny this? Bali Mardana: We cannot see, but someone else can see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣṇa says He's not manifest to the foolish. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is... You may not have seen something, but I have seen. *Karandhara: Well, they say that's the universal cop*-out. The universal cop-out is to say that God does not reveal Himself to anyone except His devotees. Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural, if a big man, he reveals to his confidential secretaries, not to everyone. Karandhara: Just like Guru Maharaji. He says you cannot understand that he is God unless you believe in him. Prabhupāda: Yes. That he'll say, "Everyone is God". But there is comparative God. He cannot say that he is as good God as Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Well, he says that. He says he is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, why? You have not shown any lifting of Govardhana Hill. Karandhara: He says you have to believe in him to see it. Prabhupāda: Why shall I believe? You are present, you show me. Karandhara: He said if you believe in him... Prabhupāda: How can I believe? You show me; then I believe. Karandhara: No, no. I bel... Well, they say the same thing about Kṛṣṇa. They say, "Well, bring Kṛṣṇa here and show me." Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is not present, but you say that you are present, so you show me. Kṛṣṇa is not present. But you are present, you rascal. Show me. Then I shall believe you. Karandhara: Well, I was just using that as a comparison to... Prabhupāda: No, why comparison? Then everyone is God. I want to see that you have got the opulence of God. You are the richest. You are smuggling, and you are richest? You rascal, you smuggle, and you are the richest? I kick on your face. (laughter) Now I challenge you. I shall kick on your face. You save yourself. You save if yourself. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Pauṇḍraka tried to imitate Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa killed him. Prabhupāda: They applied that pea, Satsvarūpa: Pie in his face. Prabhupāda: Pie. That rascal could not save himself. And he's God. Karandhara: But I was not using the comparison in that sense. The sense I was using it in... to a scientist, if you tell him "You have to believe in Kṛṣṇa to realize He is God..." Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not belief, it is fact. It is not... that we protest. Karandhara: But the disciples of Guru Maharaji say the same thing. Prabhupāda: Why? Karandhara: They say they've seen Guru Maharaji lifting Govardhana Hill, and they've seen his universal form. Prabhupāda: No, Govardhana Hill, when he lifted, everyone saw. Karandhara: The scientists want to see it also to believe in Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, so show him. Show him. But prove him. Then everybody says that... I have got some disciple. I can say also, "I am God. My disciples have seen it. Believe me." Say that. Karandhara: Well, that's why they won't believe in Kṛṣṇa. They know that everyone can say that. Yaśomatīnandana: It is accepted by the higher authorities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: All the great sages and saints. Prabhupāda: Where are their higher authorities? Satsvarūpa: They don't accept śāstra, that Kṛṣṇa lifted Govardhana Hill five thousand years ago. Prabhupāda: No... Like that, they do not believe the śāstra, just see. Yaśomatīnandana: They believe in Alexander the Great and George Washington. Why don't they believe in Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. That is their foolishness. Nobody has seen George Washington. Karandhara: No. believing in George Washington is not the same thing. Prabhupāda: Why not same thing? Karandhara: George Washington is still a mundane figure, imperfect. Prabhupāda: Well, mundane figure, because you have got picture of George Washington, that's... We have got picture of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You think George Washington fact because you see the picture of, that's all. So we see daily the picture, the photo, the statue. Karandhara: Well, they may accept Kṛṣṇa as a person, but not as God. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is person. Kṛṣṇa is person. God is person. That we accept. God is person. God is not person. Bali Mardana: The demons at Kṛṣṇa's time could not even accept Him as God, what to speak of the demons now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Therefore they say, What is the platform of objectivity in determining what's God?" Prabhupāda: This is definition. God has show in himself, exhibited Himself. He married sixteen thousand wives. Where is that person who can marry sixteen thousand wife and expand himself in sixteen thousand bodies? Where is that person? Karandhara: They say no such person exists. Prabhupāda: Therefore He is there. He is God, the superexcellent. Karandhara: But they say He never did that. That's impossible. Prabhupāda: He did it. There is a mention in the history. Karandhara: George Washington didn't do anything which was out out out of the conception of belief. Prabhupāda: No, out of conception, he had no power to do it. He had no power to do it. Hṛdayānanda: Who's conception? Karandhara: Their conception. Prabhupāda: No, he had no power to do that, neither you have the power. That is the difference between you and God. Yaśomatīnandana: In other words, "If God is like me, then I'll accept him as God, but if he's not like me, then he is not God." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Means... Karandhara: No, they say, "If God is absolute, then he has to be obvious to everyone." Just like the sun comes up. The sun is obvious to everyone whether they believe in it or not. Prabhupāda: Yes, but who is in the room, closing the room, how he can see? Prajāpati: If they're asleep. Prabhupāda: If somebody's sleeping just like owl, he cannot see the sun. The sun is a fact, but the owl cannot see. Karandhara: The owl can see if it looks at it. Prabhupāda: Yes, but... Therefore if you look, then you'll see. Karandhara: Well, they think they are looking. Prabhupāda: No, they are not looking, not in the process. Yaśomatīnandana: And God is also obvious to them in different manifestations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Birth, death, old age, disease, then trees, sun, the moon, the stars, the planets, these are also different manifestations of God. Karandhara: No, there's no need to accept that's a God. Yaśomatīnandana: Well, there are different manifestations of God. Just like we don't know the sun planet in it's full details. We just know... *Prabhupāda: No, the sun, here it is not fully risen. But there is some place*-sun is now full-fledged. But because you are here, you cannot say, "The sun cannot be full fledged." But that's a fact. Now in India, not India, somewhere else, the sun is now twelve o'clock, is it not? Prajāpati: Hawaii. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because time difference. But they are seeing, "Oh, sun is so full*-fledged, so shining." You are not seeing. That is your inefficiency. Karandhara: But they are able to experience that by their traveling. *Prabhupāda: Yes, so if you travel, you will also experience. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Then you'll also experience. We don't say that you are unable to, but if you adopt the process you'll also know. Prajāpati: There's a large group today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, called humanists and they have decided that this concept of God is not very useful. We can solve all the problems ourselves. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. These are rascals. You see, humanists, they are professing humanists and they are killing so many human beings daily. You see? These are all escapism. What is called? Escaping? They could not find any, I mean to say, solace and now humanity... What they can do? There are so many people suffering in the human society. What they can do? Suppose they are opening hospitals. Is that guarantee for a cure of disease or no death? Then what is the humanity. You cannot do anything. You may advertise yourself, " I have opened so many hospitals and beds." But what you can do? Is that guarantee that there that there will be no disease and everyone will be cured, nobody will die. Then what is the humanitarianism. You cannot do anything. Karandhara: They say, "the best use of a bad bargain." Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea that you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee? Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on. Karandhara: They say you can't separate... *Prabhupāda: No, that... Without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying so many. Rascals, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything. Prajāpati: Actually they are so demoniac, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are advocating so many birth control, and so many things, and they say this... *Prabhupāda: Simply rascaldom. Simply. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. They are going to the darkest region. Because they are killing, they will have to suffer. That they do not know. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The blind man going forward will fall into the ditch. So this is their rascaldom. *Bali Mardan: Can a person who eats meat obtain a human birth? Or he must be put back into animal species, meat*-eaters? Prabhupāda: No, he'll become animal, and he'll be killed. Bali Mardana: So that means practically all the population. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That animal will become man, and he'll kill him. He'll become animal. This is karma*-bandhana. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Yajñārthe, in the yajña, sometimes there is recommendation of animal sacrifice. Except that, you are bound up. You will have to be killed. *Yaśomatīnandana: The meat*-eating also leads to many other sinful activities too, right? *Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Meat*-eating means he's demon, and demon means he'll act in so many ways, demonic way, and he'll be complicated, one after another. Yaśomatīnandana: These humanists, Prabhupāda, may try to make some... Prabhupāda: This is humanism. We are trying to save the human being from falling down. This is real humanism, if there is meaning of humanity. We are trying to save everyone, that "Don't fall down. Take full advantage of this human form of life and go back to home, back to Godhead. Be happy." This is humanity. Except this, all bogus, humbug. Except this, all bogus humbug. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that will be this perfect platform, but there's nothing like something perfect. They will explain that... Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach? But you have no goal. You do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly? Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don't want to give this body up. Prabhupāda: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it. Prajāpati: Devotees are beginning more and more, Śrīla Prabhupāda, under your instruction, to enter into politics. But the political leaders, they will claim, "Well you have no experience. How can you be qualified to...?" Prajāpati: Will this be possible, to reform these leaders, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Well, just like I came here alone to reform, to make God conscious, but gradually it is increasing. Although I had very little hope, but still now hopeful. So let us try for it. It is not that cent percent people, but if one, two men can understand, leading men, then the whole society will be benefited. It is not that mass people will be reformed. Just like we have received one letter from one Mr. Ford, Ford family, how much he is appreciating our movement. He has paid also. So it is our duty to do. But if one, two men comes out, comes forward, then it will be successful. Yaśomatīnandana: That Ford boy is about to become a devotee, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll become devotee, just like George is becoming devotee. So if somebody comes in our touch and if he is sincere, he'll become devotee. Now this, I shall go this way? Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prajāpati: So therefore, because we're not actually trying to gain the office, there need be no compromise in our preaching. Our preaching can be strictly on the platform... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Prajāpati: ...It always has been. *Prabhupāda: Our, this attempt is for preaching, not for the post. If we get the post it is all right. If we don't get, we are not disappointed. Just like even Kṛṣṇa. He came to preach, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. And did everybody do so, sarva-dharmān? So that it is so sublime... It is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching. Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is process. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among those students, thousands of students, there are only very few who come out very good in society... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not everybody. *Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, that is already spoken. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad*-gītā; at the same time, He says, Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the difference is one is working on the illusory platform... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: : ...and one is working on the absolute platform. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difference. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Therefore a little, if you act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will never be lost and it will save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Kartum avyayam. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. And whatever you have done, that is your permanent asset. It will never be lost. So nowadays the theologicians do not talk of God? Prajāpati: Not so much, no. Prabhupāda: That means they are failure. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are interested in politics now. Prabhupāda: Just like nowadays they are not talking of going to the moon planet. There is no newspaper news. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a bigger plan. Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. Now the small plan they could not make successful. Now they are thinking of bigger plan. You see? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are planning to go to Mars now. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another bluff. Another bluff. The smaller plan, they could not make successful. Now they're attempting bigger plan. Bara bara goragere rasatala, beta gora katha jala.(?) Betagor... There is a story that there was river. You know, horse can swim over. So big, big stalwart horses, they waved, mean, they washed away by the flood. So one lean and thin horse is coming, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" It is like bara bara goragere rasatala, beta gora katha jala. (?) So these rascals could not reach even the moon planet; now they are planning to the Mars planet. Just see. And another rascal will believe him. That, What you have done for the, which is the nearest planet? Karandhara: Well, they say they've done everything they wanted to do with the moon. They say they've accomplished everything they wanted to on the moon. Prabhupāda: So you are not successful. That's a fact. Karandhara: Basically what they did is they went there and they realized it's not worth anything, so there's no use going there. Prabhupāda: That means you bluff again, and you take some money. That's your business. Prajāpati: The public interest is flagging, and they're not interested in the moon anymore. They want something more exciting. So to get the... Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is bluffing. That is bluffing. The scientists want to be engaged and get money from the government, so they must go on bluffing. Otherwise how they'll get money? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There was a seminar yesterday. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The seminar was, the title was "The Atmosphere of Mars." The atmosphere in the Mars they are studying now very carefully. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they're saying it is carbon dioxide and water. Prabhupāda: So the same "carbon dioxide" and big, big words, jugglery of words, that's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are hopeful that there may be some life there. *Prabhupāda: That, they are hopeful of doing everything but never successful, never. That they'll never become. Unless they are hopeful, how... Just like a physician. The man is going to die, still, he's thinking, "Yes, I am hopeful." I have seen in Allahabad high*-court. One man was condemned to death, and his lawyer solacing him. "Don't be sorry. I'll appeal, I'll appeal. I'll get you out." You see? This is their business. Yaśomatīnandana: They do want something more exciting, Prabhupāda, but they don't know they want to go to the spiritual sky. Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual. They do not know what is this sky even, what to speak of spiritual sky. Karandhara: Prabhupāda, many theologians will say privately that they believe in God or they want to believe in God but they cannot speak of God to the common people because the people are so agitated, they don't want to hear of God. Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking. We are speaking to the common man. We do not hesitate. We say, "Here is Kṛṣṇa, God." Prajāpati: The most active or the most powerful of the theologians, they are very, very conservative Christian, and they say, though, that if they believe in Jesus, they cannot hear of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Why? If they are actually theologians, why they should not hear? Jesus Christ says that he's the son of God. But why not of the father. And what is this? Karandhara: They make reference to one... He supposedly said that he was the only way, that no man could come to God the father except through Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, so we accept the only way. Take Bible, and we shall prove there is Kṛṣṇa. Take Bible, yes. Prajāpati: But they will quote a reference in the Bible that says, "No other book." Prabhupāda: No, no, no, don't accept no other book. Take Bible, and we shall prove there is Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, wonderful. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he also said, Prabhupāda, that "God, the heavenly father, who is greater than me, He has sent me here." *Prabhupāda: Yes, there is Bible. Yes. Here is. Practically nowadays there is no Christian. All heathens. Yes. Because they are... Therefore we are purchasing so many churches. And there are so many for sale. Nobody is going to. In London I have seen. Hundreds of churches are... some neighbor. Nobody goes. Only the churchtaker and the so*-called one or two neighboring old women, that's all. So it is gone. Christian religion is now gone. Yaśomatīnandana: Also, Prabhupāda, Christ never said himself that he's dying for their sins. But this is the later disciples of Christ, they claim that Christ has died for their sins. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? This is the fact? Prajāpati: That's fact, yes. Prabhupāda: Just see how they are. They're saying so many things. Bali Mardana: Cheaters. In Germany since they lost the war everyone has become atheists. In Germany, because they lost the war, they all became atheists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: It's better sometimes to approach a person with no religion, Prabhupāda, than to approach a Christian. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: These Christians are very blasphemous. Prajāpati: Very blasphemous. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Party spirit. Prabhupāda: No no, what is their value? When they are sanctioning abortion, homosex, now they are finished. They have no value. Karandhara: Well, most or a greater proportion of the traditional Christians condemn homosex and abortion. A good quantity of the traditional Christians, they condemn abortion and homosex. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are good, but mostly, as you were telling me that, that Pope is disgusted... Yes. Nobody cares for the Bible or the Pope. That is everywhere, not only Christian. Actually there is no religion at the present moment. All animals. We don't blame only the Christians. The Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They have lost all religion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually Prabhupāda, I read in the Time Magazine that Indira Gandhi, she said to one reporter her birth control program has not become successful because in Kerala there are a lot of Catholics who are opposing this kind of process. In other words the Hindus are approving of it but the Catholics are rejecting it, it looks like, to some extent. She says that because the Catholics in Kerala, they are opposing the birth control program so she has got trouble like that. She is completely atheistic. Prabhupāda: Unless she become atheist how you can stay in that post? She must be atheist. Or she may not be atheist, but for political reasons she must become atheist. Otherwise she cannot maintain her post. All these politicians, they are simply duplicity. Actually they are something else, but in political post they must show themselves as something else. This is politics. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Nehru said that all factories, chemical factories and these iron factories are our temples, these are our temples. Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru was a big atheist too, he openly declared. *Prabhupāda: Yes, he was first*-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes, some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two he is one. Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is quite believable. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes Prabhupāda, it's a fact. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does he know that is...? Yaśomatīnandana: It's fortunate to become a dog. Prabhupāda: Ha? The astrologers, they sometimes approached. Ah, what is the position of this man, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Gandhi? And they say something. So he has said about Nehru like this. Astrologer, he was hesitating, then he said. It was spoken by one very respectable person, Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Who? Prabhupāda: My godbrother. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Similarly also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, some astrologers say that Śrīla Prabhupāda... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose if he has said, how can you disbelieve it? How can you disbelieve it? That is... Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. "After giving up this body, one has to accept another body." So he has accepted another body but nobody can tell what body he has accepted. If the astrologer says, you have to accept it. You cannot say, "No, he has not accepted dog body." You cannot give any proof. So anyone can say anything. But it is a fact that he has accepted another body. Devotee: Jaya. Bali Mardana: He looks a little like a dog. *Prabhupāda: Adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ, he was in completely tamo*-guṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Yaśomatīnandana: He claimed himself to be brāhmaṇa. And he was eating meat. Prabhupāda: No. He never claimed. Yaśomatīnandana: He never claimed. Prabhupāda: He never claimed. He said, "You call me brāhmaṇa. That's your... but I, I do not follow anything." He never said that. Devotee: And Mahatma Gandhi, Prabhupāda, he said Rāma, Rāma, Rāma three times before he died. Prabhupāda: Yes. So he'll get birth as human being. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are these astrologers, ah, are, can we believe in them, what they say? Called pseudo*-science. Prabhupāda: No. Astrology is a science. [break] ...that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things... this... Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they have some intelligence to tell that... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is calculation, calculation. This astrologer, this astrologer was a very big astrologer and when I was in service, Dr. Bose's laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope, "What is the matter? Panditji, can you tell?" So he calculated. He said, "You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the throat. It is not heart." And he treated, he was cured. Yaśomatīnandana: Vedic science is so perfect. Prabhupāda: Yes. He knew it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Who is this Dr. Bose, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yaśomatīnandana: Jagadishacandra Bose? Prabhupāda: No, he's another Bose. There is... Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a Bose Institute in Calcutta in... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, (coughs) that is Sir Jagadishacandra Bose. Sir J.C. Bose... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...who discovered, he discovered this wireless telegraph. Yaśomatīnandana: Wasn't that your father's friend? Prabhupāda: No. He, this, he's Dr. Karttikacandra Bose. Devotee: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: There is a road, K.C. Bose, Dr. Karttikacandra Bose Street. He was my father's friend. Devotee: Did you work for Jagadishacandra Bose too? Prabhupāda: No, no. I worked for Dr. Dr. K.C. Bose, under whose name the street is going on, Dr. Karttikacandra Bose. He's also famous man, this Bose. He was the, I mean to say, the starter of this Bengal Chemical Company. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh yes, they are a big company. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Bose's labora... Practically chemical industry was... Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it was Acarya Prafullacandra Raya, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that starting of chemical industry in the Bengali...? Prabhupāda: Acarya Prafullacandra Raya was one of the director and this K.C. Bose was a managing director. Actually the life was given by Dr. Karttikacandra Bose to Bengal Chemical. But because Prafullacandra Raya was a famous chemist and he was attached to it, therefore his name become famous. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. Yaśomatīnandana: Also you mentioned Mullik family in Calcutta to be your grandparents or someone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: That is also mentioned in the *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: Yes. One of the members was our relative. So we are staying with them, these Mulliks. He had no sons. So we were staying, some relatives. Therefore I was born in that family, although they are our distant relations. But when I was, my father was staying there, I was born. These Mulliks they are also De. Their original title is De. This Mullik is their title. Yaśomatīnandana: For being in the Mohammedan service? Prabhupāda: Yes, not service. Sometimes the Mohammedans used to give... Just like the British government used to give titles, "Sir", like that. Mullik, Mullik comes from the word "mallika". Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mallika means owner, the owner? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mullik, Chaudhuri, Raya. These are Mohammedan titles. Khan. Like that. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...family names, we said two family names, like Raya Chaudhuri, like Datta Gupta. How this happened? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the Mulliks they're De Mullik. The original title is De but they got the title Mullik. Similarly, there is another family. They are called Sil Mullik. The original title is Sil but they got the title. As De we belong to the same family. But because, somehow or other, they got this title, so they... It is not different but... [break] *Yaśomatīnandana: ...Gaura*-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā in which you, all the original svarūpa of all the devotees are given? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: So most of the Lord Caitanya's associates were gopīs from the... Prabhupāda: Associates... Yaśomatīnandana: Lord Kṛṣṇa's... Prabhupāda: Some of them gopīs, some of them cowherd boys, some of them father, mother, like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bengal, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the brāhmaṇa caste family like Mukherjees, then Bannerjees, then,... I had a roommate when I was in Calcutta, his was Mukherjee. So he was telling me one day that we are much more superior brāhmaṇas than other like Chaudhuris and Sanyals. Prabhupāda: But where is your superiority? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was explaining like that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmaṇa. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guṇa, karma, superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think tradition must be still... *Prabhupāda: But tradition, what is that tradition? Tradition is here, in the proof. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The reference is given to the quality, guṇa, and karma, and action. How you can simply say that because I'm born in such and such family, therefore I have also the same thing. Because my father was high-court judge, therefore I am high-court judge. Is that very good logic? How you became superior? You have to prove your superiority by your qualification and actual work. This is very nice. The world is accepting like that. Somebody's coming to you to accept some scientific instruction. He accepts you're superior in scientific knowledge, not for your birth, but for your quality and work. That is fact. So you first of all come to the platform of the quality and work, then you claim superior. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. That is foolishness. Prabhupāda: And that foolishness has killed the whole Vedic civilization. Yaśomatīnandana: I thought the same way before I became a disciple of Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Here is a... He comes from a very respectable brāhmaṇa family, but he knows... Yaśomatīnandana: Well I realized afterwards that I was lower than a śūdra, because actually it was my duty and I rejected it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Ṭhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed*-Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service. Then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra. If a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brāhmaṇa, he's in service? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think he's a physicist now. I think he came here about one year before I came here. Prabhupāda: So if he's in service, then he's śūdra. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: He's śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra*-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. As soon as one accepts service of a master, immediately śūdra. Yaśomatīnandana: True brāhmaṇas even didn't care for kings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: They didn't care for the honor from king or they didn't, they would... Prabhupāda: They would give advice to the kings but never accept the post of a king. Hṛdayānanda: So every kṣatriya had to have something to manage? Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a regular advisory committee, privy council, composed of high learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think people who say like this they are jealous. Prabhupāda: Ha? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are jealous of the other people who are coming up higher than them. So, seeing them, they are quite jealous. Prabhupāda: Who? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: These so*-called brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: They must be jealous because if simply by taking birth in a brāhmaṇa family he can become brāhmaṇa and if somebody protests then he, he becomes jealous... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Dr. Wolfe: ...quite an invalid today. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) I do not... Svarūpa Dāmodara: He had rheumatic pain, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Passerby: ...arthritic pain and I was bad in my leg today and I thought better not to go. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Wolfe: Thank you. Yaśomatīnandana: It's so nice to be with you in the morning. The whole day is very nice. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...daiva*-varṇāśrama. My Guru Mahārāja wanted this that there be regular varṇāśrama, qualified. It is not the monopoly of India that brāhmaṇas are born there. No. No, you are all brāhmaṇas. Otherwise how can I allow you to worship Deity? Hmm. What is that? *Satsvarūpa: If I go to some city and hold a program and advertise but only, say, four or five people come and yet they're interested, very interested*-should that be considered successful or unsuccessful? Prabhupāda: It is successful. If one man comes to hear, that is successful. But we have to see that, after spending so much money... Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: ...better to call a small meeting of the learned scholars and talk with them about our philosophy because even if you advertise common man is not interested. They think, "Oh, what is this?" Even the so*-called higher circles. The best thing is to collect some... Just like ordinary meeting it is done. That is better. Why should you spend unnecessarily on advertising. (end) Morning Walk -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...he's son of God, we... [break] Prajāpati: Many of the men who founded this country were very pious, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prajāpati: Some of the founding fathers of the country were very pious because... Prabhupāda: You are still pious. Otherwise, how you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You are still pious, but you are misguided. Your, your nation is very good. I like the American nation. Simply little reformation required. Now just, for example, this "In God we trust." This is very nice example. Now, they do not know what is God, how to trust. That is, that has to be done. That has to be learned. Prajāpati: Trust means to depend completely upon God? Prabhupāda: Eh? Just like Arjuna. While Arjuna was fighting the battle, he completely depended on Kṛṣṇa. But he was not idle. Completely, to depend completely on God does not mean idleness. Arjuna is the example. Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna that "You are My friend. You are My devotee, completely dependent upon Me. So you can sit down." Never said like that. Similarly, we should remain always completely dependent upon God. That does not mean we shall be lazy and idle and gossiping. We must fully utilize the intelligence which God has given us, but at the same time, we must completely depend on God. This is called "In God we trust." Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called? Prabhupāda: "We trust in God." I am speaking that American currency notes bears the slogan, "In God we trust." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: I am talking on that matter. So if the American nation trusts in God... If not... They say, they have declared. Now, the difficulty is they do not know actually what is God, how to trust. That we are teaching. So the government must come forward to cooperate with us. This should be... There should be an agitation. Now this "In God we trust," it is, it is something like vague idea. There is a need of... (aside:) You can make copy from there. If you bring one dozen like this, then it is difficult to walk. (about tape recorders) So our propaganda should be to the United, I mean to say, United States government and public. And you are theologicians. You should make program that simply saying that "In God we trust," and we do all nonsense, which exhibits that we do not trust in God, this thing should be stopped. You have placed in your Constitution, there is, you trust in God. Now you should understand what is God and how to trust. That we are teaching. This should be taken very seriously. Because you cannot change your Constitution. Already there is that. But you must know it perfectly well what is God and how to trust Him. That science we are teaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The government should cooperate fully. There should be school, college, to understand what is God, how to trust. This movement should be started. What do you think? Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. Actually, if the American nation take it seriously, "In God we trust," ...They must take it seriously because it is Constitution. Then the whole world will change. The whole world will change. Not only that. The Americans... Just like they are always combatting with the Communists. Similarly, the American nation should be so strong that anyone godless, he should be fired. Any nation who does not believe in God, war declared. "Either you believe in God or come on. Fight. Come under us." This should be the... Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the... *Prabhupāda: It is not that God consciousness, just like our Gaurasundara, to go to a solitary place, and do all rascals and rascaldom. Sell the temple and go to the solitary place. This kind of God*-trust, rascaldom, hooliganism, is no trust. You see? This is all hooliganism, nonsense. Prajāpati: There is no trust without obedience. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. There is no... There is no question of trust. Yes. That is, that is the first requirement in the Bhagavad*-gītā. "You surrender unto Me." That means: "You trust." I cannot surrender unto you if I do not trust you. That is trust. I don't believe you; *how can I trust you? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is full trust. "Yes, I must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. He, He..." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, Devotee: This way. *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā. Just like slaves. Sometimes the master used to kill. In this country? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not very good. Therefore these, they became independent now. But actually, slave means that. If the master likes... What is that light? Some ship? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Karandhara: I think that's an oil well. Prabhupāda: Oh, oil drilling. So you are theologician. You start this movement, plus our Hare Kṛṣṇa party. And leaders, the propaganda should be that the, at least the priests, who are conducting religious activities, they, the priests and the leaders and the administrators, they must be sinless. Or... Sinless means they should not indulge in these four prohibited principles. Others may do. But the leaders, the political executive, administrators, and the priests who are conducting the church, they must be free from sinful life. Otherwise, there is no question of peace in the society. Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement,... War was declared against Arjuna because he's, he was sinful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa declared war, "You must kill them. You must kill them, Arjuna." Arjuna was declined, "Oh, let them go. They are my brothers." "No, you must kill them. Don't talk nonsense." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea. That is Bhagavad*-gītā. The whole Bhagavad-gītā was spoken just to induce Arjuna to kill the godless, the sinful. That is Bhagavad-gītā. Prajāpati: Actually, it's very good for them to be killed by a devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a murderer is to be killed. Then his sins out of this murdering will be counteracted. If he lives, then he has to suffer so many tribulations. Better let him be killed. Then everything's finished. Life for life. And if there are good leaders, then they will see that the cheating scientists, they're spoiling state money. They'll be stopped in their nefarious activities. They could not become successful in the moon expedition. Now they have made another plan. Venus... What is? Venus expedition? Karandhara: Mars, Jupiter. Hṛdayānanda: Mars. Prabhupāda: Mars. You see? But the rascal government does not... You could not become successful about the moon expedition. Why you are asking money again? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they are successful. Prabhupāda: What is that successful? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they have gone to the moon. So that was a direct... Prabhupāda: That you are not successful. You live there. What is the use of going there? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They wanted to know what is going on there. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is another rascaldom. What is going on... There are so many things going on. So you have to spend money for going all to the planets, what they are doing, or... Only for that? Karandhara: They haven't taken care of business here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Just see... Karandhara: They haven't taken care of things here. *Prabhupāda: Just see how rascaldom is going on. What is the use of our going there? "Things are going on..." Suppose in another state, something is going on. So are you interested? Going... Let them go. What is the benefit out of it? You spend so much money, public. Simply to see. "There is a crack." Last conclusion: "There was a crack." Just see how they are spoiling hard*-earned public money. Because there is no good leader, all these rascals are benefitting, taking their money, and enjoying, and giving bluff information to the public. This should be stopped. Immediately this should be stopped. What is their contribution? The same thing: a dog is already barking, and because they're imitating barking, they're being awarded Nobel Prize, "Oh, how you can bark nicely!" This is going on. There is life already. It is practical. Everyone sees that a man and woman combines and there is child, life, another life. And now, foolishly they want to prove that life comes from matter. And as soon as we offer that "You take this matter. Produce," "That we shall see later on." Just see. In this way, they're spoiling money. So because there is no good leader, these rascals are not stopped. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call this "A new frontier of knowledge." Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: "New frontier of knowledge." Prabhupāda: Yes, because the new frontier of knowledge for the rascals not for the intelligent men. They're... The same example. If somebody imitates barking of the dog, if he says, "This is new frontier of knowledge," so a foolish man can believe that "How you have learned to bark like dog! Oh, great advancement." But an intelligent man says "What is the use of this barking, imitation barking? There is already dogs who are barking." Just like there is a... It is a fact, not story. One man, he went out of his village, and after ten years, he came back, advertised himself that "I have become successful in yoga practice." So naturally villagers surrounded him. "Oh, you have...? What yoga practice you have learned?" "I can walk on the water." "Oh?" Actually, even at the present moment, if somebody comes and says, "I can walk...," many people will come, thousands of men. So when everything, arrangement was that he'll cross the river, walking on the water, one old man came. He said, "Sir, it is very wonderful, but it is two paise worth. Two paise worth." "Why?" "Now, you will walk and go the other side; I'll take a boat, pay him two paise. I'll do the same thing. So what is your credit?" So those who are actually intelligent men, they will take like that, that "What actual profit you have made? You have spent millions and millions of dollars, and you say, 'Now, we have seen in the moon there is a crack.' " So this bluffing to the public must be stopped. They're squandering money, public money, and we Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we cannot do our activities for want of money. They have become so fools. How they are squandering money simply by bluffing another set of rascals that they are advancing in scientific knowledge. They are rascals, and they're cheating other rascals that they're advancing. And result is they're squandering public money. What do you think, Mr. Scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is not, though... Just like we are learning about Kṛṣṇa from Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just exactly like that, the scientists, they're trying to learn something what was not known before. Prabhupāda: No, what is not known? Barking was already known. Suppose if you can produce life, life is already there. What is your credit? Life is al... Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that's not enough. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that knowledge is not enough. Prabhupāda: No, why not enough? Everyone knows that a man and woman combines and there is life again. Karandhara: Well, they want to control the process. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: They want to control the process because... Prabhupāda: Why, why you should control? Why? Karandhara: That is the reason of their research. Prabhupāda: Eh? Control the process. They cannot control. They are trying to control to minimize population, but the record is that every minute there is three men increasing. Every minute. The population increasing. It is not diminishing. In spite of their so many contraceptive methods, killing, abortion, the population is increasing. You cannot stop it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say... They give the credit to the medical science. They say... Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that credit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Medical science has advanced so much that now people are... *Prabhupāda: Medical science has given the chance of committing sinful activities. That's all. And the medical man and the man who is committing such sinful activities, they will suffer. This is the advantage of their so*-called medical science. They do not know. They have, they have sanctioned this abortion, medical science. Means they have given chance to commit sinful activities. That's all. So so many rascaldom is going on all over the world, and we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, wants to stop all this nonsense, and save the humanity from going down to the animal kingdom. That is our program. They are... They have become just like animals, and next life they are going to be animals. That law they do not know. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. They do not believe in dehāntara-prāptiḥ. That is their nonsense. And now, what kind of dehāntara, change of body? That also they do not know. That is also going to happen. If you become like cats and dogs, you get cats and dogs life. There is nature's law. But they do not know. They're misguiding simply. And if it is so that I have got now nice, human form of body, and next life I'm going to be a dog, is that advancement of civilization? Simply cheating. Everyone is cheating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say they don't care about next life, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is foolishness. Just like a child is playing whole day, and if you ask, "Go to school," "I don't care for future life." It is, it is just like that. It is just like that. How the guardians can tolerate that, that this rascal is going to be a fool-number*-one if he's not educated? So we are guardians. We are representatives of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot see this. The rascal may say like that, but we cannot tolerate this. This is our proposition. We must see that things are going on nicely, according to the plan of God. That is our duty. The rascal may say like that. But we cannot stop there. So this is a serious movement, and you should take very seriously from all angles of vision. (pause) Just like these Africans, they stopped my entrance. These rascals are thinking that Africa belongs to them. It is God's property. These usurpers, these rogues and thieves, a few Africans, they are thinking, "It is our property." Huge state, huge land, huge food products can be produced there and utilized for the whole human society. But they are thinking, "It is my property. We shall not allow." So many wrong things are going on in the name of nationalism, in the name of scientific advancement, and people are suffering. How we can see that? Everybody has bluffed so long. Now we have to stop them. This is our movement. You should ask, theologician, the government, "What kind of trust? Is it scientific trust, or simply...?" They do not trust even in... So-called Christians, they do not trust in Jesus Christ. But they are going on as Christian, as priest. Cheating and bluffing should be stopped. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The rascals are flourishing by cheating and bluffing. This business should be stopped. So what do you think, Karandhara Prabhu? Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda. It must be stopped. Prabhupāda: How much important is your movement, just try to understand. Prajāpati: This will be accomplished only by your blessing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) My blessings are already there. Kṛṣṇa's blessings are. But if you don't take the blessings, then how it will be done? You have to fight. Arjuna never said, "By blessings, the fight will go on." You must fight. It is not like that, "Your blessing..." Fight. My blessing is there. You have to fight. Arjuna never said to Kṛṣṇa, "Sir, you are the Supreme Lord. By Your blessing, I'll win over the war." Kṛṣṇa said, "No you must fight. My blessings are there." That is wanted. We have to fight. Not that take a room and chant, peacefully chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not like that. We must fight. *Prajāpati: But later, lately, we've been reading in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam how Arjuna's potency was gone. He was not even able to protect Kṛṣṇa's wives. What was missing there? Prabhupāda: No, that, that, that is a example, that without Kṛṣṇa's help, everything is useless. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa's wife can be stolen away by others, the plan was different. But the outward show is that without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, nothing can be successful. Even you have got the same bow, same arrows, same man. But Kṛṣṇa... We must depend... That is trust. We have to depend on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. At the same time, we have to work. That is required. It may be Arjuna was proud that "I am Arjuna. I am taking them. Who can touch them?" That proudness. You see? And might be. It is quite natural. Prajāpati: So we must also be very much on guard for this pride. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you should not be falsely proud. The whole material world is falsely proud. Their whole program is to defy God. And our program is to declare war against these rascals. Everyone is trying to defy God. What do you think, scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But their duty should have been, scientist's duty should have been that "God has created so wonderful things. So glorify God." That should have been the scientist's duty, "How nicely He has made!" That is scientist's duty, everyone's duty. Prajāpati: In the early days of science, about three, four hundred years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda, many of the early scientists were persecuted by the church for their discoveries. So since that time, the scientists have declared war on religion, and they have been doing their best to try to disprove all religious things. Prabhupāda: What they have discovered? These four hundred years, the scientists said that there is no God? Prajāpati: No, they were... One scientist, Galileo, he was making all kinds of inquiries into saying that the earth is round and so many things, and the church of that day, the rascal priests, they put him to death because he was saying things that were not in the scriptures. Since that time, especially the last hundred years, the scientists are... Prabhupāda: No, the things is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody is rascal, either the scientist is rascal or the priest is rascal. There must be real understanding. That is government's duty. Otherwise, if the priest says, "The scientist speaking against religion; *therefore he should be hanged," so that is not good government. Government must see that whether the scientist is speaking the truth. That sense must be there. Yes, world is round. That is fact. Goloka. In Vedic literature it is bhū*-gola, jagad-aṇḍa. These words are there. We can see also it is round, jagad-aṇḍa. The universe is round. And Goloka. Or Bhū-gola. Bhū-gola, the earth is round. So in the Vedic literatures... Therefore their knowledge is also imperfect because they do not refer to the Vedic literatures. It is already there. Bhū-gola. Bhū means the earth; *gola means round. It is already there. And the geography's called, according to Sanskrit, it is called Bhū*-gola. Long, long ago, before Galileo. So if the state is blind, he does not see whether he's talking right or wrong, then havi candra raja gobi candra mantri (?). What can be done. That is going on. Because the government means a set of fools, so all foolish people are flourishing. Government is a set of fools because sinful men. They cannot be intelligent. A sinful man cannot be intelligent. Yes. That's a fact. If he's intelligent, then his intelligence is used for wrong things. Duṣkṛtina. Kṛtina. Kṛtina means intelligent, but duṣkṛtina, badly intelligent, for doing wrong things. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Of course, there is a gap of understanding. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a gap of understanding. *Prabhupāda: Gap of understanding because the basic principle is wrong, because everyone is fool. And they are trying to understand things with their foolish background. There is the wrong. They are trying to be advanced in knowledge on the foolish background. They do not accept that, that they are foolish rascals. And they are trying to advance in knowledge, active*-foolish, fourth class men. Their background is wrong. No scientist, no politician, no philosophers, at the present moment, believe in this, that there is soul, and the soul is transmigrating from one body... Nobody believes it. So their whole background is foolish. So their so-called advancement must be all foolish. They're all fools, rascals, animals. An animal does not know that there is soul and the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. This is animal conception. You cannot teach these pigeons that "You are spirit soul. Your body's different from you." They will, they have no power to understand. So if a human being cannot understand, what is the difference between these pigeons and cats and dogs and him? Then basic principle is wrong. Just like in mathematical calculation, if at one point you have mistaken, then will that be correct ever? It will go on, mistaking, mistaking, mistaking, mistaking. If the, if one point, while adding, you have made two plus two equal to five, then after that, everything wrong, everything wrong. Everything wrong. So that is their position. Their basic principle is like animal. The animal cannot understand that there is soul and there is transmigration of the soul. And if the human society makes progress of their so-called knowledge on this wrong basis understanding, then what will be the result? Everything wrong, everything wrong, everything wrong. Everything foolish. That is stated in the Bhāgavata: parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam: "If somebody does not know what is ātma-tattva, what is the science of soul, then whatever he is making, so-called advancement that is all defeat." Parābhava. That is being done. And defeat they are taking as success. Just like these rascal scientists, they could not go and settle in the moon planet. Still, they are saying, "It is success. It is success." Just see the fun. What success? You could not stay there, and what success you have got? Simply by seeing a crack? "Yes." That's all right, success. And people are accepting, "Oh, yes, you are successful. Now go to another planet." These bogus things are going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're called technolo... (heavy waves) *Prabhupāda: They may call whatever they like. But we are sane man. We cannot take the... We can say only that "You are all defeated." They may say. A fool will never agree that he's a fool. He'll always say, "I am very intelli..." That is another foolishness. After spending millions of... for one coat for going to the moon planet? Forty*-thousand dollar? What is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. Billions of dollars were spent. Prabhupāda: That coat? Śrutakīrti: No, coat. Brahmānanda: Spacesuit. Karandhara: Oh yes. Millions of dollars. Prabhupāda: Just see how they are spending, squandering public money. You see? But nobody is to stop this. Prajāpati: The demons have always been trying to make staircases and towers up to heaven. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Demonic. Prajāpati: In the Bible, it is also. An attempt was made to build a big, huge tower up to heaven. And the Lord was not very pleased with this attempt, and He scattered all the people. (about the ocean) Just wants to touch your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Big, powerful waves, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Big, powerful waves. Prabhupāda: No, not very much. Up to this powerful. (laughter) Up to ten feet, that's all. [break] Prajāpati: ...if these world leaders and scientists could hear your nectarean words and accept them and surrender, the world would be a very wonderful place. Prabhupāda: Then make them. That is your duty. I am talking to you, and you talk to them. That is paramparā system. Alone, I cannot go everywhere. Now you learn and you speak. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...first*-class economist. We are trying to save the state money from being unnecessarily squandered away. The so-called scientists, politicians, they are simply wasting money. [break] Prajāpati: ...fear this condition is hopeless. Prabhupāda: No, not at all. You simply expose these rascals, and everything hopeful. You have to know how to expose these rascals. That's all. Hṛdayānanda: So the more we preach and chant, the more we become purified. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to become powerful spiritually. Then you'll be able. If you remain weak and manufacture your own way, then it will not be possible. Hṛdayānanda: Oh. Jaya. [break] Prajāpati: ...think the strength is our own, though. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prajāpati: We should not think that this is our own strength. *Prabhupāda: No. We have to work by the strength of Kṛṣṇa. Buddhi*-yogaṁ dadāmi tam. He'll give, supply the strength. Or, in other words, you have already got the strength. You have to revive it. That's all. Actually, that is the position. As spiritual spark, we have got immense strength. But we are now identifying with this body. [break] ...hill. It was formerly very high. Now why it has gone down? This hill? Hṛdayānanda: Oh, rocks. Prabhupāda: Rocks, yes. Karandhara: Because the ocean's moved up. It's just that the tides are way in. Prabhupāda: Oh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are bigger. Prabhupāda: But..., Karandhara: They used to be able... There used to be a big pipe you could see, but now it's all covered under the ocean. Prabhupāda: Yes but daily we see it is covered. Why? That means? Śrutakīrti: The tides go in and out. Prajāpati: The phases of the moon, Śrīla Prabhupāda, affect the tides. Prabhupāda: That I know. Or due to this moon, yes. Now it will go down. After this full moon. Yes. [break] Prajāpati: ...Christmas, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They'd be better off celebrating the fact that you're here. Prabhupāda: I say that they are not Christian. They're all atheists. Christians, one who is actually Christian, he's good. But they are not Christians. They do not believe in Christ. Neither in his words. So what kind of Christian they are? *Hṛdayānanda: They're such rascals that some of the young student so*-called Christians, they even preach that. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, any Hindus, so*-called Hindu, if he does not believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, what kind of Hindu he is? He's a rascal. He's a rascal. Prajāpati: In days gone by, there were pious Christians who tried to follow in the footsteps of saintly persons, but there are no more... Prabhupāda: No, no. Christians must be always pious. Prajāpati: There are no more... Prabhupāda: There cannot be impious Christian or pious Christian. Christian must be pious. If somebody's impious, then he's not Christian. [break] ...impious thief cannot be. Thief is always impious. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] Prajāpati: ...trusting in God. And then, when they realize they are not, then we can show them how to trust in God. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You do not know. You come to us and learn how to trust, how to know. And if you speak lies that you do not know what is God that is a different thing. Then you should be punished." People should be given chance of believing, trusting in God. They have declared. So it is their duty. The state duty is to see how people are trusting. That is state's duty. Constitution says that nobody can steal. Is it not state's duty that people are not becoming thieves and stealing? Is it not the duty of the state? Similarly, if you, if you have accepted this that "In God we trust," you must see that everyone trusts in God. And that is scientifically. Not sentimentally. It is the duty of the state to see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in an empty slogan. The slogan is empty. Prabhupāda: So that is not required. It must be practical. Empty slogan has no meaning. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The way it's written... Devotee: Why was, why was Lord Rāma letting Rāvaṇa live in Laṅkā? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Why was He permitting him to live there? He was irreligious. He did not trust in God. Why was Lord Rāma letting him...? Prabhupāda: No, no. He was killed therefore. He was not allowed to live there. Therefore Rāmacandra went there to kill him. "You rascal. You must be killed." Why do you say that he was allowed? Devotee: Well... Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: For some time, for some time. Prabhupāda: For sometimes every thief flourishes. That is another thing. But he must be punished. Devotee: Hmm. He was punished. Prabhupāda: You can cheat for some time everyone, but you cannot be allowed to cheat everyone for all the time. That is not possible. [break] ...law. Therefore Lord Rāmacandra could create millions of Sītā. So the purpose was to kill this atheist. Therefore, it was... (end) Room Conversation with Latin Professor -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...is that at the ultimate issue, God is person. (hammering sound in background) Stop that tok, tok. Hṛdayānanda: He's stopping it now. Śrutakīrti: banging... *Prabhupāda: Just like this sun, the sunshine, the sun globe, and within the sun globe. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find, the Fourth Chapter, the person sun, whose name is Vivasvān, he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. You are a Sanskrit scholar. Professor: No, I'm afraid not. Dharmādhyakṣa: That was the gentleman whose works he translated. In other words, the gentleman that he worked for was the Sanskrit scholar. *Prabhupāda: I see. So... Oh, you have no seat? They are giving him? All right. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand that Bha... Just like in this planet we are so many persons, or the President Nixon is the President. Similarly, in every planet there are living entities, and the President of the sun planet is called Vivasvān. So he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa long, long ago. In the higher planetary system, the time is different. That was proved when the Russian aeronautics were on the sky. In one hour twenty-five minutes, he went round the earth, twice or thrice, like that. So time is different. So the point is... Just like the sunshine is impersonal, the sun is localized, and the president of the sun globe is a person, similarly, the Absolute Truth is realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The first realization is impersonal, then localized, and then personal. So ultimately, God is person. And that is Kṛṣṇa. So we are hearing directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead about Godhead, and that is perfect knowledge. If you speak yourself about yourself, that is my perfect knowledge of yourself. And if I simply speculate that "Professor may be like this, like that," that is not perfect. I am speculating, but if you come to me, "Swamiji, I am like this," then my knowledge is perfect. Otherwise, I can go on speculating for millions of years. Still, my knowledge is imperfect. So we cannot manufacture God; *neither we can speculate. That is not possible. But you can get some idea, but there is no possibility of getting perfect knowledge of God. God is unlimited. I am limited. So my speculative knowledge is limited. So how I can understand the unlimited by my limited knowledge? That is not possible. We can make little progress, and that is impersonal understanding. The perfect understanding is that He is person, all*-powerful, all-mighty, all beautiful, all-wise, all..., everything perfect, six opulences: riches, strength, influence, beauty, knowledge and renouncement. These are the six opulences. And God is complete. This is conception of God. Professor: For me, and I suppose, for so many others, the difficulty is getting from the intellectual willingness to accept the notion of God and even to get beyond a kind of fleeting intuition from time to time that there is something beyond the humanistic world conception to a real inner understanding of that reality. And I suppose that is what your work is all about, to... Prabhupāda: Yes. God is... God is beyond our intellectual platform. (door opens) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Professor, give him some seat. He'll stand? Śrutakīrti: I sent someone out for a chair, but he hasn't found one. *Prabhupāda: And what is that? Good morning. Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are three stages. First stage of understanding is direct perception, by senses. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find. Here, from the material platform, our source of knowledge is direct perception. That is crude, pratyakṣa. It is called pratyakṣa. That is crude knowledge, direct perception. Just like I am seeing the sun. I am getting some idea of the sun, but that is not the perfect idea, although I am seeing it daily. I am seeing just like a disc, but it is very, very big. So my direct perception cannot give me perfect knowledge. The first... Besides that, at our present stage, material condition, we are imperfect because we commit mistake. By direct seeing the sun, I am thinking that it is just like a disc. Then we are illusioned. We, sometimes we accept something for something. Then, with this imperfect knowledge, we try to become teacher. That is cheating. And at the end, our senses are imperfect. So with so many imperfectness, how we can get perfect knowledge? What is your answer? Professor: I have no answer. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, our speculative knowledge, intellectual platform, is not helpful. We must receive knowledge from superior source, perfect source. That knowledge is perfect. Just like we give, generally this example, that to find out who is my father, my search out, research, will not help me, but if my mother says, "Here is your father," that is perfect knowledge because she's authority. Therefore, for perfect knowledge, we have to take it from the perfect authority, not by our speculative intellectual gymnasium. No, that will not help. Because our intellectual jurisdiction is very limited. That is Vedic process. Vedic process is not to acquire knowledge by ascending process, inductive process. Vedic knowledge is to receive knowledge by descending process, knowledge coming from authority. That, that you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter: evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Knowledge has to be received... Just like a child receives knowledge... He is inquisitive: "Mother, what is this? Father, what is this?" And mother informs him, "My dear child, this is is. This is this." So he is acquiring knowledge by descending process. And if the child wants to get knowledge independently, that is not knowledge. He'll touch the fire. Mother: "Don't touch, don't touch, my dear child!" But he does not know. He's thinking the fire as something eatable. So by the Vedic process, this experimental knowledge is no useful. Yes. The Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "In order to receive perfect knowledge, you must have approach the guru." Guru means who has the perfect knowledge. So you cannot independently get perfect knowledge, intellectual. That will remain always imperfect. So intellectually, how you can conceive about God, who is unlimited, beyond your sense perception? We cannot know even ordinary material things, how great the sun is, how this universe is. We have imperfect knowledge. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. Therefore, we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect. I am not perfect, but because I am receiving knowledge from the supreme perfect, therefore whatever I say, it is perfect. And that is guru. Guru does not say anything of his own manufacture or research. He says only what he has heard from the Supreme. That's all. So it is easier. It is easier. If the child says, "A watch, a watch," the child may be imperfect, but he has heard from his father, Here is a watch." That knowledge is perfect. This is our process. And Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. Veda, this word, Sanskrit word, it means perfect knowledge. Otherwise, there is no way to have perfect knowledge. There must be some source of perfect knowledge. That is Veda. For example, we... Just like cow dung. Cow dung is the stool of an animal. So in the Vedic principle, if you touch the stool of an animal, even your own stool, you become impure, you have to take bath. But the Vedas says, "The stool of cow is pure." And we accept that because Vedic injunction. And if you analyze, it is full of antiseptic properties, although it is stool. So by argument, one will say, "How is that? Sometimes you say that stool is impure, and again you say this stool is pure." But that is fact. Similarly, if we accept Vedic injunction, we save so much time for so-called research work. That is the standard knowledge. So every knowledge is there in the Vedas. There are so many Vedas. Even for our ordinary dealings, just like Āyur-veda. Āyur-veda means medical science. Similarly, Dhanur-veda, military science. Similarly, Jyotir-veda, jyotis, the astronomical science. And those who are, mean, accustomed with Vedic knowledge, it is so nice and, I mean to say, perfect that... Take, for example, that Āyur-veda, medical science. Their process is that this body, the physiological condition, is depending on three things, tri-dhātu, kapha-pitta-vāyu: mucus, bile and air. And the air is felt by the pulse beating. So they learn how to examine the pulse beating, the heart beating. And they have got description. Just like the sparrow walks, the crow walks, so in this way they have given the example, "If the pulse is beating like the walking of the sparrow, walking of the crow, then his health, his condition, is like this, and the symptoms will be like this." So the physician first of all studies the pulses, and he remembers the symptoms, and he corroborates, asking the patient, "Do you feel like this? Do you feel like this? Do you do this, like this?" If it is corroborated, then his diagnosis is given: "He has got this disease." So similarly, in Jyotir-veda they have got similar symptoms: "If such and such stars are now nearer to this star"*-they have got this calculation-"then the position is this." So they learn very quickly. Indian brāhmaṇas, they learned Jyotir-veda, Āyur-veda, very quickly. Because brāhmaṇas they are meant to go to every house to inform the date, the everything. So generally people are inquisitive about the health. So they ask, "Now I am feeling like this." So they give medicine. And they give some astrological hint also. So in this way people gave them some contribution. That is their livelihood. So this... All the systems were made very easy on account of this Vedic injunction. So therefore we take Vedic knowledge as perfect, and we understand everything by Vedic knowledge about God, about His place, about His activities. And God comes as incarnation. He sends His representative. Then it is corroborated. And that is perfect knowledge of God. Kṛṣṇa's, God's feature-everything is described in the Vedas: Brahma-saṁhitā, Yajur-veda, Sāma-veda, like that. And when Kṛṣṇa descends, He practically demonstrates all the symptoms of God. So then we accept God. And it is confirmed by authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa Himself says that "I am the Supreme." Arjuna accepts, the direct listener from God. And later on, the ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, who control the society, just Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they accept. Latest, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He accepts. So our guru-paramparā all accepts Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa describes Himself. So where is the difficulty to understand God? The symptoms are there in the śāstras. And those symptoms are visible in Kṛṣṇa. Just like everyone can understand, "God is all powerful." So Kṛṣṇa showed that He is all powerful. So there is no difficulty to understand. So our method is easy. Instead of intellectual gymnastic, we take it very easily. And that acts. Now, so far our Society is concerned, we accept Kṛṣṇa as God. We're preaching Kṛṣṇa as God. So we have no difficulty. It is acting practically. So we... I may be Indian, Hindu, I may accept Kṛṣṇa as God. Maybe superstition, you may say. But why these European, Americans, Africans, they are accepting? And within very short time. Even Christian priests, they are astonished that "These boys, our boys, they did not care for God, never came to church, never inquired about God. Now they are mad after God?" They have not become mad. They are quite sane, educated. But why they are accepting Kṛṣṇa as God? Ask any one of them, they'll give explanation. And how it has become possible? Because they have accepted the method. So our guru's business is to teach him the method. Then he will understand everything. So far vegetable-eating is concerned, it is actually very scientific to eat vegetables. I think some German doctor proved it, that our teeth are meant for eating vegetables. So as devotee of Kṛṣṇa, we are not after accepting a vegetarian and rejecting a nonvegetarian. That is not our criterion. God is open for vegetarian and n *Prabhupāda: Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Devotee: Hṛdayānanda. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Read it. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: Yes. To come to the level of Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, means he's above the control of these modes of material nature. Material dicta..., material nature dictates, "Now you are, your tongue is dry. Just take one cup of tea, or smoke." (end) Morning Walk -- December 10, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...theologician. Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, throughout the Western theology, there is a conception of the wrath of God, God's anger at man's disobedience or his unwillingness to follow God and live by God's commandments. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: But in our literature we find Kṛṣṇa has some transcendental pastimes of anger, but that He does not, it is man's own reaction activities, that bring upon destruction. How are these two...? *Prabhupāda: No. All the qualities that we find within this material world, all of them must have come from God. If there is wrath within this material world, it must have come from God because God is the origin of everything. That is the Vedānta*-sūtra. Brahman, Absolute Truth, means the source of everything. Whatever we have got experience within this material world, everything is there in God. That is perfection of God. You cannot say, "This thing is not in God." So aiśvaryasya samagrasya. Everything is there. Just like Kṛṣṇa stealing as a child. But apparently sometimes He does something which is not very moral. So this immorality, the so-called immorality, it is there also. That is the full conception of God. He's not lacking in anything. Under the circumstances, God is in wrath, that is correct. But that is not His only characteristic. He has got mercifulness also. Everything is there. That is God. Therefore as theologician, you should understand the correct conception of God. They have no complete conception of God. Now, God is described in the dictionary as the Supreme Being. Is it not? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Everyone agrees on that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Everyone agrees on that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the conception of "Supreme"? That you have to define. What is the conception of Supreme? How do we accept here in this world, a person supreme? What is the conception of supreme? No... Prajāpati: No one equal to or greater than. Prabhupāda: No, that you cannot find here in this material world. Anyone has relative position. Everyone will find somebody is greater than him, somebody is lower than him. He's not absolute, nobody. A rough estimate of supremacy: if one man has got, is very rich, he's considered great. If he has got influence, if he has got bodily strength, bodily beauty, wisdom, or renunciation... These are the six items for calculating a man's greatness. Therefore when you speak, "God, the Supreme," He must possess all these things. That is the definition given by Parāśara Muni. The other day we were discussing. Somebody said, "This is all imagination." Why imagination? Who was telling? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientist. Prabhupāda: Scientist! (laughs) So how, why it is imagination? Your idea of supremacy, you must define. How do you accept here in this material world a person as supreme? Why? Why you accept Nixon as supreme person within your state? What is the cause? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because he has some power. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? Karandhara: He's elected. Prabhupāda: No, no, he's elected, that is same. But his position is supreme. Why he's supreme? As government servant, he gets the highest salary, he has the, all the best facilities, amenities, and his order is final. In this way... Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has the command of convincing others. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has the power or the command of... Prabhupāda: No, you may not agree with him. Still, you have to accept. That is his supremacy. You may not agree with him, but because he's supreme, you have to accept his order. That is his position. It does not depend on your acceptance or not acceptance. That is supremacy. Is it not? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "Mr. President, I don't agree with you. Therefore I shall not accept your order." No. You have to. You agree or not agree. That is supremacy. So when we judge the supremacy from material standpoint of view, we find that these things are the symptoms of supremacy. So all these symptoms must be in full extent in God. That is Supreme Person. God is great, God is the supreme controller. How He's supreme controller? So these are the symptoms. Therefore the definition of God given by Parāśara Muni. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then how fortunate He is is beyond our thinking capacity. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Because... Therefore acintya. How great He is, how great fortunate He is, that you cannot think of, you cannot estimate. That is called acintya. Acintya means I cannot conceive, I cannot estimate. Not only I, any big personality within this universe. Just like Brahmā says, "The others may say that he knows you, but so far I am concerned, I do not know you." That is inconceivable. Brahmā, the greatest personality within this universe, he also admits that "Others may say that he knows what You are, but from my personal experience, I say I do not know anything." We can simply partially see. Parāsya śaktiḥ. Just like we are seeing this material nature, partial exhibition of His potencies. This is one of the potencies, but He has got many potencies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. This material nature is only... This is also inferior potency. Apareyam. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. This material nature is made of earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind intelligence, ego. All these eight elements are separated inferior energy, and how much superior energies He has got. The superior energy is supposed to be the spiritual world, manifestation of the spiritual world. So if in the inferior material energy there are so many wonderful things, just imagine how much greater important wonderful things are there in the spiritual energy, which is called superior. Hṛdayānanda: With all varieties. Prabhupāda: Must be varieties. If in this inferior nature there are so many varieties, so how many superior varieties are there. That you can simply think of. That is acintya. Even in this material world, there are different planets. One planet is superior than the other planet. The inhabitants of one planet are far, far superior than other planets. Just like there is a planet which is called Siddhaloka. Here, in this planet, people practice mystic yoga for getting so much wonderful power. They are naturally... Here also we see. Just like if I want to fly I cannot. But another small bird, he'll fly. Is it not? I... If I have to live within the water, I have to make so much arrangement. But a small fish is in the big ocean; he's living there. Yes. So... But because one bird is flying in the sky without any machine, it does not mean that he has become superior to me. But comparatively I see it has got superior power. So these varieties are there. You cannot deny it. So similarly, as in this planet we are trying to get some mystic power by yoga practice, there, in other planets, it is automatically there. They do not require any machine from going one planet to another. They can simply, by will, they can go. Even in this yog... in these material planets, this planet also, there are yogis. They take early in the morning bath in four places, at Jagannātha Purī, at Rāmeśvaram and what is called, Haridvar? Devotee: Benares. Prabhupāda: At four dhāmas, and Dvārakā. Eh? Karandhara: Hrishikesh? Prabhupāda: Hrishikesh, yes, that is Haridvar. So one yogi friend was coming to my father. He said that, he said that "I went with my Guru Mahārāja." They simply sit down and touch guru and after few minutes, he's in Dvārakā. This is, this is yogic power. What your aeroplane will do? Just like Durvāsā Muni, he traveled all over the universe, up to the Vaikuṇṭhaloka within one year. But according to modern calculation, they say, with light year, in forty thousand light years we can approach to the highest planet. Is it not? If they want to go to the topmost planet, how much, how many years it will take? Is there an estimation? But, so far I know, I heard it that, someplace... They have estimated it will take forty thousand leap year. Now, leap year is beyond our calculation. What is called leap year? Light year. Hṛdayānanda: Light year. Devotees: Light year. Prabhupāda: Light year. Hṛdayānanda: The speed of light. Prabhupāda: Light year. That is beyond our estimation. And that, such forty thousand. But it is just in your front. We see so many stars out there. You cannot go. Even if you can go, are you going to live for forty thousand light years? So what is your power? Why you are so much proud. Karandhara: They have a theory that if they can get a, if they can get a machine to go at the speed of light... Prabhupāda: That, that is their... That is rascaldom. They'll say like that, but nobody has become able, neither they are able. Karandhara: They say they can stop time. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: They say if you travel at the speed of light, time stops. Prabhupāda: Time stops... Anyway, nobody has gone. They have gone to the nearest planet, they say. I do not know whether they have gone at all. Yaśomatīnandana: You don't think, Prabhupāda, they have reached the moon? Prabhupāda: No. There are so many invisible planets. Not that all the stars and planets, you can see, just like Rāhu planet. That is not seen. And when the Rāhu planet passes through, that is eclipse, but they describe in a different way. Actually, it is the Rāhu planet which passes before the sun and moon and there is eclipse. There are so many questionable things of the theory that, the eclipse theory of the modern view. That is not correct according to Vedic theory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The eclipse? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the science proves it. Prabhupāda: Science proves everything. That is their nonsense. They, amongst their community, they have proved everything except what he is, he does not know. Except that thing, what he is, he does, he does not know. And why he dies. He does not know. That is his knowledge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a model of the universe... Hṛdayānanda: The use... Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They make a model of the planets, of the movement. *Prabhupāda: They can make everything, but why, why don't you make a sun, imitation sun, so that so many electricity lights can be saved? But these rascals say everything, but cannot do anything. (laughs) That is their position. They can model a universe. First of all make a model of moon like this so that in the dark night we won't have to spend so much money. Now there is energy shortage. But they cannot do anything. Still, they'll speak big, big words. That's all. Simply to take money from the taxpayer. Why do they not manufacture an imitation moon so that we can save the electric energy? Imitation sun, imitation moon, they know the composition of the moon, the composition of the sun. Why do they not make? Simply talks. And fools are befooled by their words. Where is that power? Now in the Vedic literature it is described: yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala*-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Unlimited temperature. This is creation of Govinda. You create something like that so that in, what is called, Iceland, just have aśeṣa-tejāḥ... Eh? Karandhara: Greenland. *Prabhupāda: Greenland, yes. So that these people may be saved from so much cold. And what power you have got? Aśeṣa*-tejāḥ. You create something, some unlimited temperature. You cannot do that. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. But God has created. Not only one, many millions of suns are there. So what is your power? You are challenging God? This is called acintya. You cannot conceive even how it is made possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda, what is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Last night Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the (indistinct) explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He was giving the example that the, the jewel, gem, cintāmaṇi, it produces so many other jewels, but it remains as it is. That is pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. God, by His... Here. Just like energy. The petrol energy is now being finished. Finished. But what is the petrol there in the sun? It is never finished. But this is also material. So find out what, what is that source of...? Now, after hundred years, your stock is finished now. There is problem now, how to drive your motor car. But here, the sun, aśeṣa*-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. The moon is giving light. Nobody can calculate from where the moon is situated, created and it is spreading light, the sun is, light is there. It is material. You find out. Therefore it is called parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. His energy is unlimited. He can create millions of sun. He has already done it. But still, He's the same. Nothing is lost in His energy. That is God. That is acintya-śakti. Here you have got some money. You spend it. Next day it is all zero. So God never becomes zero. That is God. These rascals, they say ultimate truth is zero, śūnyavāda. They do not know. God is never zero. He's always positive. So you must have a clear idea of God, you theologician. You take all these ideas from Vedic description. Don't be misled by fools and rascals. Here is the God-full energy. There is no loss of energy. That is God. Our energy is lost. Just like I have lost my youthful energy, so God is not like that. That is the difference between God and me. I cannot walk so swiftly or eat more, or so many other things as a young man can do. Because I have lost my youthful energy. But God is always youthful. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. This is definition of God. That He's the oldest person. Because He's the original person, He must be the oldest. But nava-yauvanaṁ ca, but He's always youthful. That is God. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. He has got millions and millions. Just like īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... [Bg. 18.61]. He's staying within the atom, within your heart and everywhere. But still, He's one. That is God. Advaitam acyutam. Advaita means without any duality. Not that because He's living within your heart and within my heart, these two personalities are different. No, They are one. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā: yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra: "One who can see that, although God is everywhere, even within the atom, but still, He's one. That is vision of God." Prajāpati: In some Western theological literature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it refers to that "God is love." In what sense... *Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained. What is not God? That is already explained. Anything you bring, He is, God is there. Without God, nothing can exist. So why this or that? Anything, that is God. But He's absolute. His love and His enmity, that is the same thing. We distinguish, here in this material world, "This is love and this is animosity." But God's animosity and God's love-the same thing. That is acintya. Here in the relative world we cannot adjust how animosity and love can be the same, one and the same. That is acintya, inconceivable by us. But God's love... Just like God's love for the gopīs and God's enmity for Kaṁsa, they're reaching the same result. Both of them are going to the spiritual world. Just like Pūtanā and Mother Yaśodā. Pūtanā came to poison Kṛṣṇa, and Mother Yaśodā is always anxious to save Kṛṣṇa, naughty child. He may not be hurt. So two opposite things. But both of them got the same result. Kṛṣṇa thought that "I have sucked her breast, so she is My mother. She must go to the same destination as Yaśodā Mā." Just see. That is His enmity. And that is absolute. In our relative world, we can see so many differences in the dealings of God, but He is absolute, one. That is conception of God. Advaita. Advaita. Advaita means absolute. And... Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. Again advayam. You may conceive God as impersonal or localized Paramātmā or Bhagavān*-the same thing. But due to our, I mean to say, meager knowledge, we are thinking, somebody's thinking that His personality is greater than impersonality and somebody's thinking impersonality's greater than personality. This is our conception. He's the same. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. Not different. Not different. But one who has reached to the conception of personality, he has got all the others. That is the difference. So you write. You are theologician. You write about God so that people may understand how our students are enlightened. Other so-called foolish theologicians may learn from you. You take the ideas and explain. Sudāmā: Most people, Śrīla Prabhupāda, have difficulty accepting that God has an animosity. *Prabhupāda: But he has got so many difficulties because he's diseased rascal. So he has to be treated. But his only fault is that he doesn't want to be treated. He's a diseased person, but he doesn't want to be treated. When he's treated, he'll understand. But he doesn't agree to be treated. That is his fault. A tuberculous patient, he doesn't want to be treated, but if he's treated, he can be brought into healthy state. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is treating all these rascals and fools because all of them are born rascals. This is our judgement. Not... śāstra's judgement. Abodha*-jāta. Jāta means born. Born rascals. Everyone is a born rascal unless he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our... Our propaganda should be like that. We can call anyone rascal and fool if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. So what is the value of rascals and fools? He may say something. He may say something. Just like a madman. He may speak so many things. But who values his word? Everyone knows that he... A child, he speaks so many things. Who cares for it? Similarly we must know, anyone who's not Kṛṣṇa, he's a madman. He's empowered by this illusory energy. He talks all nonsense. So ours should be that "If you want to understand, then you come to this position. Then you'll understand. You must be educated." Your belief and not belief or acceptance, who cares for them? Now, this sky is there. Everyone has seen. The experienced man says, "Now, this side is sun." And if somebody says, "Why not this side?" So who cares for this version? You rascal, you may say like that, but it is a fact, this side is sun. One who knows, he can say. One who does not know, he'll argue, "Why not this side? Why you are so bigot that the sun is coming from this side? It may come this side also." This is all nonsense. Upadek... upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā recommends, tad-vijñānārtham... Now. What is that? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. You must go to a person surrendering, not with your naughty behavior, "Why this? Why that?" First thing is surrender. You must approach a person... Surrender. The first thing is praṇipātena. Then you question. Unless you have surrendered, you have no right to question. What is the meaning of such question? Simply waste of time. If you surrender to a person, and whatever answer you get from him, you'll accept, that is called surrender. So find out such person first of all, that you can surrender there and you'll accept whatever he says. That is guru. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. First thing is praṇipāta, surrender. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender." These rascals are puffed up with false knowledge. Therefore their first business is to surrender. "Rascal, you surrender." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Without surrendering, he remains a fool because he's puffed-up with false knowledge. Just like the so-called scientists, the philosophers, they think, "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" But they do not know that they are in the fool's paradise. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena [Bg. 4.34]. If you have surrendered, then you can ask some question. And sevayā. That paripraśna should not be challenge. By sevā, by service. This is our process. We must find out guru, we must satisfy him by service and surrender unto him. Then guru will explain. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. He knows everything. He'll explain. This is our program. *Govardhana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one time a boy came to our temple. He chanted and took prasādam, became very blissful, purchased Bhagavad*-gītā to study. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Govardhana: And then he went away for one week and associated with some Christians, and they convinced him that he had committed a great sin, that he should come to the temple and destroy the Deity. So after dancing and chanting in ecstasy, taking prasādam and reading Bhagavad*-gītā, he returned to the temple one week later and tried to destroy the Deity. Prabhupāda: Where? Govardhana: Detroit. Prabhupāda: Oh, he attempted it? Govardhana: Yes, but we prevented him. Prabhupāda: So we must be careful. There may be so many fanatics. Govardhana: That shows that because he was not in the constant association of devotees that he lost those qualities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. So why did you not arrest him and give to the police? Govardhana: We did. We beat him. Then we took him to court and had him put in jail for three months. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Yes. Govardhana: But how is it that he was coming and becoming enthusiastic about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: ...coming, but he was interrupted by another rascal. He was advised by another rascal. Govardhana: So one has to guard against being interrupted in that way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the first thing is that you, this, "You shall not eat meat, you shall not do this, do that, do this..." People are generally sinful, especially in the Western countries, because they are all addicted to these habits. So he can be polluted very soon. Very soon he can be polluted. He's prone to pollutions by nature. Govardhana: There are many people who come like that to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They seem to experience a taste, and then they go away and everything seems to be lost. What is their... Prabhupāda: Yes, they... Govardhana: ...position, if they are not able to stick to it? *Prabhupāda: Just like a disease. Somebody cures very quickly, somebody cures, takes some time, according to the, what is called, acuteness of the disease. Somebody dies, somebody falls down. It is a treatment. Just like some of our students in Hawaii, due to bad association, they've fallen down. But whatever sincere service one has given, that will never be lost. That's a fact. It will again revive. For the time being, as it is said by Arjuna, kala*-karma-tamoruddham. (?) Just like the sky is clear. It may be covered immediately by some cloud. And again the cloud is removed, the sky is clear. So this māyā is just like cloud. It comes where the temperature is very high, the cloud does not come. All depends on the circumstances. Sudāmā: Now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa has sent you here to teach us this art of surrendering. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: Now you have told us to first of all surrender. So as your students, we are trying to hear in that way. Now when we go and preach and we tell, if we tell a man, "First of all, you surrender before you'll be able to understand," then what, what question is there of preaching? Prabhupāda: They have already surrendered. They have already surrendered. When they have come to hear you, that is a symptom of surrender. Otherwise, why does he waste his time? There is, little bit, surrender. Full surrender and partial surrender. When one agrees to hear you, that is partial surrender. Sudāmā: Even there may be some argument, but we must be fixed up enough to convince him to surrender more. *Prabhupāda: Actually, at the present age, nobody is interested in spiritual subject matter. Nobody is interested. So nobody is coming to surrender to you. Therefore you have to canvass, "Please surrender. Please surrender." This is our position. Otherwise, the... Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One should come to the guru. But nobody comes to the guru, therefore guru has to come to U.S.A. to canvass. This is the position. Nobody went to me in India, but I had to come here to canvass you. Because it is Kali-yuga. Real process is one should go to the guru. But intelligent man goes: "My life is meant for spiritual realization. So I must find out a guru." That is his business, but people are so fallen in this age that nobody's interested in that subject matter, that he has got a spiritual value and he has to achieve this knowledge and make his life perfect. Nobody knows it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught preaching. These rascals, they are so fallen, they'll never search out guru. So guru should go and canvass. *Sudāmā: Therefore you are Jagad*-guru. Prabhupāda: I may be whatever it is. That is the business. Govardhana: You are so kind that your books are attracting so many. They have the same potency as yourself. Your canvassing is so effective, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught us... Even Nityānanda Prabhu, Haridāsa Ṭhākura, they were sent: "Go and preach. Go door*-to-door. Teach them Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Caitanya Mahāprabhu Personally did it. So our mission is like that. People are so rascal that they'll never come to guru and surrender. Manda. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ [SB 1.1.10]. They are so much embarrassed with these material calamities. Upadrutāḥ. Upadrava means disturbances. And manda: by nature very rascal. And sumanda. If there is, there is little intention, they goes to this, what is called, this boy? Devotees: Guru Maharaji? *Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja, Dr. Mishra, and this and that, they'll go. They'll not go to the real person. The real person is strict. Suppose somebody comes here, if he comes to me. I shall immediately order, "You have to do this." But these rascals, they do not say that. They (say), "You pay me, and you become perfect." That is their proposal. So your money is very cheap. They pay and flock together. That is going on. That is called sumanda*-mataya, misled. Manda, by nature they are rascals, and if they take some path, that is sumanda-mataya, again rascaldom. Why? Manda-bhāgyā, unfortunate, disturbed. They cannot find out. Therefore real guru has to canvass. This is the position. Shortage, alpāyus, they are not going to live for many years, and most of them are unfortunate rascals, and if they are eager to accept a guru, they accept a false guru, and they are materially disturbed. This is the position of the people of this age. So against so many disturbances and counter-facts, we have to preach. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it, is it also not the mercy of Kṛṣṇa that He has descended to incarnate(?) and... *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore guru is called the, Kṛṣṇa's mercy*-incarnation. Kṛṣṇa's mercy-incarnation is guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He's trying to educate from within, and outside He sends His representative to teach. So He's trying to bring all these living entities back to home, back to Godhead. Two ways, from inside, and outside. His propaganda is going on. His propaganda is going on. Govardhana: You are just like the reservoir of mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No mercy reservoir is Kṛṣṇa, but we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. We have to abide by his orders. That's all. Real mercy is Kṛṣṇa's. [break] Prajāpati: ...in the Bible, there's a story of how some cities named Sodom and Gomorraḥ became so sinful that the Lord wanted to destroy those cities and everyone in them. Will this be happening again sometime, cities become so sinful, they will be just destroyed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Destruction means sinful. If you become sinful, your body will be destroyed. You'll die out of some disease. Sinful means destruction. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Self*-destruction. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Self*-destruction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate... [Bg. 8.19] [break] ...if somebody dies out of Kṛṣṇa's anger, he also goes to Vaikuṇṭha. Hṛdayānanda: Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Hiraṇyakaśipu's mother, when she understood that his son should be so rogue and then, when she was informed that "After all, your sons will be killed by God," she was very satisfied. "Oh, then it is all right. Never mind." Because she knew, killing by God means he's going to Vaikuṇṭha. Just like cursed by Nārada Muni, Yamala*-Arjuna, they saw Kṛṣṇa. By cursing of Nārada, although for some time they had to remain as tree, but still they got the opportunity of seeing Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayānanda: Dāmodara. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dāmodara. Devotee: Everybody is concerned with peace. Do people like Guruji, because they're such rascals... Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Like Guruji, this young boy, do they constitute a threat to peacefulness in society? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Disturbance. Devotee: Disturbance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they do not believe in the śāstras, they are rascals, creating disturbances. The Guruji's group, they say, "There is no need of books." Do they not say like that? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore simply set of rascals. *Hṛdayānanda: Actually, Prabhupāda, in the beginning, in the beginning, they used Bhagavad*-gītā, but when we kept defeating them, they said, "All right, no more books." Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. Hṛdayānanda: But in the beginning, they accepted. Then they changed. *Prabhupāda: They will change so many times, because they're rascals. They have no standard program. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has given his verdict in Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Hṛdayānanda: You quoted that to Professor Stahl. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what do you think about the so*-called primordial flux? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The primordial flux, they call it. That nature has supplied such nice samples, elements, like potassium, argon, and this... Prabhupāda: Everything is natural... *Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...they call radio*-active elements. Prabhupāda: Everything is natural. What you have produced? Everything is natural production. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, based on these elements, they calculate, they can calculate, they say very exactly the, how old the earth is. How old is the... Prabhupāda: That's all right. We know how old the earth is. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How old it is? *Prabhupāda: Just like earth is at the beginning of Brahmā's life. Now Brahmā's life, you cannot calculate even one twelve hours. So how you'll calculate? He has to live for a hundred years. So now, at the present moment, if his one day's calculation is mid*-day now, at the present moment... Yaśomatīnandana: This is, is this the later half of his life? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: Is this the later half of Brahmā's life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is advancing means he's going to die later on. Not only Brahmā, everyone one of us. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they calculate that it's only 4.5 billion year old, the earth. Prabhupāda: Let them calculate, but who cares for that? They cannot calculate even one day of Brahmā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we do not accept this? Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We do not accept this. *Prabhupāda: How can I accept it? Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ: [Bg. 8.17] "The Brahmā's one day is equal to one thousand combination of yugas." The combination of yuga means forty-three-hundred thousands of years. So such thousand times makes Brahmā's one day of twelve hours. Similar period, his night. Then day and night, it becomes full twenty-four hours. Then such thirty twenty-four hours makes one month. Such twelve months makes one year, and such hundred years he will live. So how you can calculate? It is beyond your arithmetical calculation. We have to go through the śāstras. So this is in one universe. And there are millions of universes and millions of Brahmās. And all of them live, taking the advantage of one exhaling of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. All these Brahmās. So just see. How you can calculate? That is inconceivable. That is inconceivable. Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, can't think of it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is their mathematical equation, where these elements fall very uniformly, the law, the natural law, the physical law. Prabhupāda: No, that is already there, we know. What is the new discovery? Svarūpa Dāmodara: So then, putting this physical law then, it fits everything. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Equation. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this, this whole material world is going on under physical law. That is called guṇamayī. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Everything is going on... It is exactly... Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ. So it is... Just like the sun is also rotating in its orbit, sixteen thousand miles per second, but it has got a fixed time, how long it will rotate by the order of the Supreme. This is physical law. And when, when He wants, everything will withdraw. All physical, finished. Hṛdayānanda: Īśa. *Prabhupāda: Law means law*-maker. So they do not know who is the law-maker. That is the difficulty. Sudāmā: In Japan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a cherry tree that usually in the springtime it gives off flowers. So about three, two years ago, in the middle of winter, this tree gave off all flowers. All the scientists, everyone was running. "It is not time. It is not time. It is not the season. Why is it giving the flowers?" *Prabhupāda: Therefore the best education, scientific advancement, is to recognize God behind everything. That is perfection. We are canvassing, "Accept God, accept God." But if the modern scientist, philosopher, they present, "Yes, here is God," by calculation, then people will take it more seriously. "Oh, the scientist is saying." That is wanted. We are fighting with the scientists and others because they do not accept God. That is their fault. Otherwise, they are friends. They are giving more stress on the physical laws, nature, but they do not know under whose indication the physical laws are working, the nature is working. That they do not know. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ. It is the... In Vedic literatures it is said, chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā. The nature is working just like shadow, shadow of God. Just like master says, "Go there." Immediately the servant goes there. The servant is not independent. by the indication of the master, goes there. So that is nature. And because the arrangement is so perfect... Just like you said, "Out of season, the flowers came out." So they cannot explain. The arrangement is so perfect that God desired, "Now there, let be these flowers," and nature immediately produces. The arrangement is so perfect that these people, they cannot understand. They become amazed, "How it happened?" Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called acintya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everything is acintya. No scientist can explain anything. Even a straw. What is the constitution of the straw. They cannot do. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cellulose, they'll say. They'll say this is cellulose. Prabhupāda: But they cannot produce. That is the difficulty. They'll speak all nonsense, but cannot produce. No experiment. Simply theoretical observation. That's all. So observation is not perfection of science. You must produce it by experiment. Then it is perfect. Two departments. Hṛdayānanda: So if you can produce something, that means you actually understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it is a combination of such and such chemicals... Just like these rascals say, "Life..." Now he said that "You take the chemicals. Can you produce?" He said, "That I cannot say." You see? Avoiding the issue. This was discussed in the meeting. What is that gentleman? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor Stanley Miller. He's from San Diego, physicist. Prabhupāda: Miller. Yes, he has got Nobel Prize. And his theory is that from chemicals, life has begun. So he said in the meeting that "If I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" He said, "That I cannot say." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize. He has no pure idea, still he has received the Nobel Prize. Prajāpati: Number one speculator. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prajāpati: They're giving prize to the number one speculator. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Jugglery of words. That's all. Speculation means jugglery of words. Just like doctors prescribe. They give the medicine, and then water mixed. So they will never say "water" because ordinary people will understand. They'll write "aqua distillata." So ordinary man cannot understand whether it is water or medicine. But that is water. But they'll... So these scientists, they'll manufacture some word which you cannot understand... "Vyāghra mane śārdūla." One student asked the teacher, "What is the meaning of 'vyāghra' ?" He said, "Śārdūla." It is still difficult. You see ? This is going on. Prajāpati: Most theologians, they write like that, also, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their business. Because they want to cheat people, they'll manufacture some words which they cannot understand, and they'll be: "Oh, very nice. How nice word it is." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Therefore they're called genius. One can make... Prabhupāda: A genius for the fools. They are genius for the fools. Not for the person. Yaśomatīnandana: They say... In Hindi it is said: dhuniya yukti hai duhkkhana vana caye. (?) Prabhupāda: Ah, (Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Śrīla Prabhupāda goes, we are going to miss this morning walk. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to miss this morning... Prabhupāda: No, you remember, you manipulate, you expand it. That is your business. Hṛdayānanda: Boy, they're so enlightening. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! All glories to Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. All glories to the assembled devotees. (end) Morning Walk -- December 11, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...innocent child, woman, they're innocent. They should be given full protection. There is no such thing. They're being exploited, keeping them unmarried, and the hotels, and the clubs, and the, what is called? Top... top... Devotees: Topless. *Prabhupāda: Topless, bottomless. That is going on. It is a regular policy that girls may remain unmarried, and the drunkards and the meat*-eaters may take advantage of the prostitution. This is the policy. They have no sympathy. So many hundreds and thousands of innocent girls, they're like children. And they're exposed to prostitution. They have no shelter. Now these girls who are with us, they're feeling some shelter, you see? That we are giving some shelter. Everything should be reformed, political, social, and be, you American nation-you're favored nation, that I am always speaking; *you should utilize the favor of God and be yourself perfect*-and be leader of the whole world. Anyone who is not believer in God, he should be punished. Because he's animal. He is animal, and he is posing himself as human being. Cheater. Human life is meant for tapasya, for understanding God. That is human life. This dog's life, cat's life, this is not human life. If you become a very powerful tiger, is that human life? They're thinking like that. "If I become as strong as a tiger, then there we are perfect nation." Then what is the use of tiger? It is simply kill only. What other intelligence he has got? So in your country there are so many things to be done. I give you the idea, now you take the leaders. [break] Rascal. Sentimental. Be yourself leader. [break] ...you give up all this material advancement. But there must be Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise it is waste of time. Live very comfortably, gentlemanly. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You live like wretched urchins." Kṛṣṇa never says that. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā. And this was practically introduced by my Guru Mahārāja, that living in palatial building and riding on first-class cars, one can become the best devotee. Not that one has to live underneath a tree, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī. That is not possible in this age. That is the continuation of my Guru Mahārāja, that if one is sincere he can remain a first-class devotee even in this material opulence. And if he would not have introduced, then it was not possible to come here and preach this gospel. That because the principle was to live underneath a tree, go to Vṛndāvana, and have loincloth, just like the bābājīs are imitating. No. Even in full material opulence we can become a perfect devotee, provided you follow the principles. It doesn't matter. Gṛhe vā... It was sung by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura long ago. Gṛhe vā banete ṭhāke. Either you live in the forest or in the city, opulent city, the business is gaurāṅga bole rākhe: always thinking of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Narottama māge tarsan.(?) Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, "I want their association, who is a devotee of Lord Gaurāṅga." It doesn't matter whether he lives in the forest or in the opulent city. It doesn't matter. He must be devotee. [break] Household life or in city life we should not be extravagant, unnecessarily eating, unnecessarily enjoying. No, that is not the... One man's food, another man's poison. We must know this philosophy. [break] ...and even we..., my health is not always going on nicely. Still, why I am trying? That is my ambition. I want to begin one revolution. Their godless civilization..., against godless civilization. That is my ambition. The America will be the best person to be educated in this line and to lead, to become the leaders. They're already leader, but they must be real leader now, so that the whole world may be happy. That I can give direction. If the topmost American gentlemen come to me, I can give them direction how they can become the world leader. Actual leader. Actual leader, not bogus leader. Because God has favored them, so many things. And this movement has been started from America. I started this movement from New York. So it should be taken very seriously by the government. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...important? Prabhupāda: Ah? Hṛdayānanda: You're saying that America is the most important? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: You think... Prabhupāda: Therefore I come to your country... Hṛdayānanda: So perhaps... Prabhupāda: ...because you're most important. Now you must... Under my guidance you must be real important, not false important. Hṛdayānanda: So perhaps I should stay here then and preach. Prabhupāda: Ah? Hṛdayānanda: If it is so important, I think perhaps I should stay here and help Rūpānuga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness, because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God we trust." Now they must take it very seriously. What does it mean by "God"? What does it mean by "trust"? You take this propaganda. We are doing, actually. We trust in God; therefore we have sacrificed our whole life for God. This is trust in God. Not that smoking in the parlor, and you trust in God. Not that kind of trust. Real trust. Trust means first of all you know what is God. Suppose that if you say "Trust this man." But I must know what is this man. Then my trust will be convinced, that "He is very respectful man, he's rich man, he's able man..." Yes, I can trust. But simply trust in God, you do not know what is God, what is trust, and it is going on. Why this bluff? Ah? What you say? Prajāpati: That that's right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must take this clue, that we Americans, we say "In God we trust." Now, every American should know what is God, what is trust. This is propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The government must come forward to patronize this. This is my proposition. So you write articles, you are theologicians. The America must rise up to the occasion. They have pledged themselves, "In God we trust." Every human nation or every human being should be like that. In God they must trust. So America, especially taken up the slogan as part of Constitution. Now there should be regular educational program, that every child, every man, every woman will trust in God. And this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So? Am I wrong in my arguments? Devotee: No, correct. Prabhupāda: So why don't you take it seriously, you American boys? Prajāpati: Also in the Constitution, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a thing called separation of church and state, that they would have... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right. We want to educate, we don't want to take part in administration. But the administration should be under our guidance; they should take advice from us, how to do it. That is required. We are not going to be president. We are satisfied in our humble temple. Karandhara: According to traditional American values, though, the government should not take instruction from the church. Prabhupāda: That is their... But... Church means... Because they've seen church is useless. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now here is scientific church. They refuse to take advice from the church because at the present moment church is a bogus thing. So what is the use of taking advice from them? Hṛdayānanda: That was actually... That was actually the reason they made that separation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: They became disgusted with the... Prabhupāda: Yes. It's simply, we can say, what is called? Stereotype, the church. Just like you said they want more pay. Payment... They have no knowledge, so what is the use of taking advice from such rascals? What is the use? But here it is not like that. We know the science of God. We know who is God. It is not a vague thing. Now you try to understand. Let there be educational institution. America has got so many universities. Let there be a department. There is already a religious department. So let the students learn the science of God. We have got so many books. Why they will not? They are actually appreciating. So this should be introduced in the university, in colleges, in schools. Why they should neglect such a, such an important scientific knowledge? Devotee (1): When we try to introduce it sometimes, they very often say that it is sectarian. Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. You do not know. Why do you say sectarian? How it is sectarian? Devotee (1): They say that it represents... Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. So is it not for everyone? God consciousness is sectarian? Is it meant for certain sect? Or it is meant for human beings? Hṛdayānanda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness. Prabhupāda: No, no, every common man he says "I got my mathematics." Will he be accepted? Hṛdayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: So why these things should be allowed? That is our proposition. Every man will say, "No, I've got my own mathematics." Will he be allowed? So we have to fight, otherwise what is the meaning of preaching? Hṛdayānanda: Fight. Prabhupāda: If you think that everything will be accepted very easily, then what is the necessity of preaching? Hṛdayānanda: Jaya! Prabhupāda: And propaganda. Hṛdayānanda: You have to fight. Prabhupāda: You must know that they are all rascals. That I said, rascals, unbelievers. You have to convert them to be sane man. That is preaching. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prabhupāda: That is preaching. What do you expect that every man will immediately go and he'll agree with you? Why do you expect like that? That is foolishness. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya! Prabhupāda: You must know that everybody will disagree with you, and it is your preaching work that you will make him agree with you. That is your preaching work. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda! As your example. Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not expect that everyone will agree. Everybody will disagree. Just like our book. Say, four, five years ago, nobody knew these books. So there was no market. But we have created our market. That is preaching. We have created our market. Nobody was dying for want of these books. So that is preaching. Preaching does not mean everyone is ready to accept your theories. You must expect that everyone will not accept it. Now it is your power to convince him, "Yes, you must accept." That is preaching. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: They must know what is God, how to trust Him, why we shall trust God, what is the benefit. These things should be known, properly educated. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: And we have got the science. We are not speaking blindly or, what is called, sentimentally. (japa) [break] Prajāpati: ...movement for the church today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is called the ecumenical movement. Ecumenical movement means all the different divergent groups are trying to get together to understand..., you know, make a common ground. Now we have the perfect platform... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: ...for giving them that common ground. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your duty. You do it as theologicians. Bring them on the platform. This so*-called church is going on. They're doing all sorts of sinful activities, and it is going on church and religion. Therefore the importance of Christian religion is diminishing. How they can bluff all the time? (japa) Hṛdayānanda: When you came to America, for one year no one would help you. Prabhupāda: Ah? Hṛdayānanda: When you came to America, you told us in Pittsburgh, that for one year no one would help you, you had no place. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...child. (Prabhupāda chuckles) The perfect example. [break] Jaya. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Real help for real friend is my Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. He's not only my friend, He's friend of, even of the ant. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yaśomatīnandana: (indistinct) ...when Prabhupāda didn't get help from anybody... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: ...he just got help from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the friend of everyone. We don't take His help, that is the difficulty. He says, He's guaranteed, that "If you just surrender to Me, I'll give you all protection." Such a friend who can give, there. But they'll not do that. Actually if one trusts in God, then everything is there, perfectly. Prajāpati: So if they did trust in God, they would not have all these problems today. Prabhupāda: No. It is factual. Just like in modern... Immediate problem is the petrol. Nobody trusts in God. The Arabians, they're thinking that this oil, "Our oil." But actually, his father has not manufactured this oil. It is God's oil. None of them believe in God, either the Arabians or the others. Therefore there is crisis. It is practical. Is the petrol manufactured by man? So why a section of man is claiming, "It is my petrol"? If somebody says, "It is my Pacific Ocean," what is this nonsense? Because they are going on under this nonsense ideas, therefore there is problem. Devotee (1): Sometimes they claim the Pacific Ocean as their own. Prabhupāda: Ah? Ah? Devotee (1): Some countries claim, you know, twelve, three hundred miles of the ocean is being their ocean. Prabhupāda: That's all right, three hundred miles, let them claim. But not the oil. (devotees chuckle) If I say "Now the sandy beach, two miles mine," you can say, but what is that talk? (laughs) But it belongs to the government. You can say... A child may come, "Oh, this is my area, you cannot come." (laughter) That is going on. But is that sanity? The father will laugh: "All right, let him, demarcation, this area." So this foolishness is going on. Our philosophy... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything belongs to God. This is philosophy. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they won't accept it, although it is fact. Although it is fact. But they will not accept it. Therefore preaching is required, education required, to bring him into sense. This is fact. This portion of the ocean does not belong to any nation or any person; it belongs to God. This moon belongs to God, the sky belongs to God. But they're thinking, "It is mine." And therefore there is trouble. Just like government. The Senate is there, so they sit down together, and if there is any problem they discuss together to find out the solution. Similarly, they have got this United Nation. Why do they not consider, "First of all let us settle to whom this planet belongs"? Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Prabhupāda: They're United Nation, first of all let us settle. They are fighting: "I'm Arabian," "I'm Indian," "I'm American," "I'm Englishman..." "All right, let us settle actually to whom this planet belongs." They cannot do that, because all of them are thieves. None of them will agree that it belongs to God. The real fact, that they will not agree. Then how there can be peace? Because they're all cheaters. They want to cheat God. God's property, they're claiming "ours." All thieves and rogues, so how there can be any settlement? There cannot be any settlement. Devotee (1): If we approached them and we said something like that, they would laugh. Prabhupāda: That's because they're rogues. Against their ideals. "Why you're laughing like fools? Does it belong to you or your father? This whole world? Why you are laughing like a fool?" You should have said like that. "You're laughing not like a gentleman; you're laughing like a fool. Can you say that it belongs to your father? Or you'll be allowed to stay here in America? After some years you'll be kicked out. Do you know where you were going? Why you are laughing like fools?" This should be the answer. Karandhara: The Arabs, some of the Arabs, they say they believe in God, but that everyone else is... *Prabhupāda: Nobody believes in God. That is our proposition. Nobody believes... All this bogus. Now they should come to understand what is God. This, in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody believes, neither know what is God. Here we are giving the name, the address, the form, the activities, everything of God*-Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let all the Arabians, all the Americans, let come to us. Those who are chief men, intelligent man, we shall convince them. That is our preaching. Karandhara: There's one Arab leader, he goes to the temple five times a day, he doesn't eat meat, er, doesn't drink liquor or smoke or go out with women... Prabhupāda: Yes, these are, these are prohibited in Muhammadan villages. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. But still it is good. To some extent, he's advanced. Karandhara: He doesn't allow any liquor shops or tobacco shops in this country. Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's good. Karandhara: Khadafi. Hṛdayānanda: Which country is it? *Prabhupāda: All these things are sinful. To drink is sinful. Even among the Muhammadans. To smoke, sinful. They have got austerities. Their animal*-killing is once in a year. (Hindi) Only animals should be sacrificed in worship. There are so many things. Every religion there is good thing, but then nobody follows. Simply defined, "I'm Christian," "I'm Muhammadan," "I am Hindu..." That's all. He's neither of them. He's simply animal. He's simply animal. Just like these rascal Christian. The first proposition is "Thou shalt not kill," and see they're simply killing, and they're claiming "Christians." Just see. All rascals, and they're claiming, "We're follower of Christian." [break] ...propaganda is to teach all these rascals. Therefore we say general rascals. It may be very strong... That professor was referring, "Yes, everyone is rascal." You know that professor? Karandhara: Yes. He thought "rascals" was a bit harsh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says rascal; therefore... Yaśomatīnandana: But he... The professor, when he left he said that "Prabhupāda is very, very gentle," he said. He's the most gentle man he's ever seen. Devotee: Gentle like a rose, and strong like a thunderstorm. [break] Prabhupāda: ...India. Just start this movement seriously. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Bombay is the best center. Yaśomatīnandana: I'm being very enthused when you say these things to... Prabhupāda: Yes. There is great field to conquer, and you are educated and intelligent, capable. You have got qualification, you can do this very good work. Yaśomatīnandana: We think that it may be impractical to go in the politics or like that. But then when you say so firmly, all the whole..., immediately our eyes get open, you see? "Yes, actually, this is possible." Prabhupāda: Why not possible? Yaśomatīnandana: What is impossible for a Kṛṣṇa's devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. Prabhupāda: Yes. That conviction you must have. If you are sincere to Kṛṣṇa, if you are actually serving Kṛṣṇa, where is impossible to you? Where is impossible? There's nothing impossible. Yaśomatīnandana: Mūkhaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim. *Prabhupāda: That one of my important Godbrothers says. He's sincere. All others, they are rascals. He says that "In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it is said pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma. So we were thinking that this is imagination, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult would be spread all over the world, everyone will chant. So you have done it." So he's appreciating in that way. "But we are simply thinking that it is not possible, it is simply imagination. But that you have made it possible." So that is his appreciation. Hṛdayānanda: Because you are so faithful. So (indistinct), more firmer. [break] Devotee (3): That's what he says. Prabhupāda: He says? Devotee (3): He says that, yes. Prabhupāda: What they said? Devotee (3): Ah... They believe him. Prabhupāda: Ah? *Devotee (3): The Maharaj*-ji... Devotee (4): He said that... He said that everyone in the world will become his devotees, but we'll... The Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will be the last. But they'll be the best. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) (everyone laughs) (end) Devotee: That's what he says. Prabhupāda: He says? Devotee: He says that, yes. Prabhupāda: And what they say? Devotee: They believe him. The Maharaji... Karandhara: He says that everyone in the world will become his devotees, but we'll, the Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees will be the last. But they'll be the best. Prabhupāda: Kick his face. (laughter) So that means unless the Kṛṣṇa conscious student go there, he is never perfect. That is to be understood. Karandhara: So we tell them, "If we're the best devotees, then you come and surrender to us." Prabhupāda: Yes. He admits this. Hṛdayānanda: Karandhara, does Prabhupāda know about what happened in Houston? Karandhara: Yeah, he saw the article. Hṛdayānanda: Oh, you saw the article on Houston, how we chanted. Yaśomatīnandana: Actually Prabhupāda, his books are full of rubbish, garbage. There is no knowledge in the books or any philosophy or anything. They're simply... Prabhupāda: What is his books? They do not believe in books. *Yaśomatīnandana: Still, he puts out a magazine, called "Broadcasting His Glories." And in the magazine he quotes some verses from Bhagavad*-gītā. He supports that yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. So he says that... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that "I come whenever there is decline of religiosity." So he claims that he is now Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Anyway, he accepts authority of Kṛṣṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, he says that Kṛṣṇa is God. Devotee: But now he is Kṛṣṇa. And he wears Kṛṣṇa's crown and he plays Kṛṣṇa's flute. He wears Kṛṣṇa's crown. They give him Kṛṣṇa's crown and he wears it, and he plays Kṛṣṇa's flute. Or he says it is Kṛṣṇa's flute, and he plays it. Prabhupāda: Anyway, he is making his business with Kṛṣṇa's crown and Kṛṣṇa's flute. Yaśomatīnandana: Like Pauṇḍraka. Prabhupāda: Yes. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as authority. So... Yaśomatīnandana: He is like King Pauṇḍraka. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Imitation is flattery. Prabhupāda: Best flattery. He is flattering Kṛṣṇa. [break] Why the Kṛṣṇa devotees do not come to you? Yaśomatīnandana: Once a devotee met somebody on the street, and he said, "Actually I am God, you know." And the devotee said, "Oh yes, you are God?" So he said, "I am your devotee. Why don't you give me a million dollars," he said. "I am your devotee, I have dedicated my life to you. Why don't you give me some money." Prabhupāda: Who said? Yaśomatīnandana: A devotee said. One guy said that he was God, he said, "I am God." Then devotee said that "Oh you are God? Then I am your devotee. Why don't you give me some money." [break] Prabhupāda: What is, machine, it is called? Devotee: It is sand cleaner, it cleans the sand. *Prabhupāda: Anyway, this machine is working to keep this beach very clean. So we can understand that there is some management behind this. Similarly, the nature is working so nicely. How we can deny that behind this there is a system of management? How we can deny it? [break] ...things are going on very nicely. The sun is rising exactly in time, the moon is rising exactly in time, the water is flowing in its own orbit. It does not violate. So if things are going on so nicely, how you can deny that "There is no management behind it"? How you can deny it? It is very natural to understand immediately. And that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā that "What you are speaking that nature is doing, yes, nature is doing, but under My direction." Just like the machine. Take it as nature. The machine is working, but the driver is there. Without the driver, how the machine can simply work? [break] ...life is meant. That is Vedic instruction, to know that management, who is the supreme manager. That is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Otherwise animal life. [break] Prajāpati: In the last World War there was a very famous German propagandist named Goebbels who wrote that if one controls the communications, the media, the radio and television, newspapers, like this, he actually controls what people think. So we've not put so much emphasis on that so far in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, actually controlling the linkage of communication. In the future should we be more and more concerned with that? Prabhupāda: What is that future? What do you want to do in future? Prajāpati: Actually permeate all the media with Kṛṣṇa consciousness propaganda, not simply just writing but actually all aspects of... Prabhupāda: Yes, you can take advantage of all this media. That we are doing. Just like we are taking advantage of this microphone. We are not rejecting, "Oh, it is material. Why should we take?" Nothing material. Anything used for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Material means what is not used for Kṛṣṇa. That is material. You are materialistic when you are not used for Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you are utilized for Kṛṣṇa, you are spiritualistic. That is the difference. Here we say, "This is material world." This is material world because everyone has forgotten Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is material world. So if they come into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual. [break] ...conscious people now challenge this rascal that "We are searching after Kṛṣṇa. We are not searching... We are devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and you are posing yourself as Kṛṣṇa. So show us some Kṛṣṇa's power. We immediately come to you." Yaśomatīnandana: He says that "I show it only to my devotees." He says that "You have to be my devotee to see my power." Devotee: So we are Kṛṣṇa's devotee, so if he is Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: But when Kṛṣṇa lifted the mountain, it was not meant for the devotees, it was meant for everyone. Yaśomatīnandana: But because he is rascal, that's what he says. Prabhupāda: "So you, why you are simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, your devotee. You show us. We don't believe you that you are Kṛṣṇa, but if you want us to come to you, you show this. We shall come immediately. Why make it confidential? Make it public. Then we come immediately. This is our condition. But because you do not show it, therefore we know you are a rascal number one. Why shall I come to you?" Yaśomatīnandana: "If you claim that you are God, then anybody can claim that he is God." Prabhupāda: "Yes, anybody can claim. But we think you are a rascal. Therefore we do not come. Now, if you can show us something like Kṛṣṇa, then we shall immediately come. Our difficulty will be solved. We shall see Kṛṣṇa. But we know that you are a rascal." You go there. Go there, somebody, and tell like that. Prajāpati: No. There is one rascal, Prabhupāda, who can do tricks. His name is Sai Baba. He can make jewels appear, give people photographs of himself, give them to people like tricks. Prabhupāda: But another rascal will be victim of that tricks. Why shall I accept him as God? Karandhara: Besides, they're insignificant tricks. Prabhupāda: Insignificant tricks. So if gold is the standard of becoming God, then there is gold mine. So who has created the gold mine, I shall accept Him God. Why shall I you. If gold is the standard, why a little chaṭāka(?) of...? We are not so fools. You can make this trick for other fools, not to us. Yaśomatīnandana: I told his mahatma, his main disciple... He says that "Actually, book is not important," he says, "but experience is important." And I said, "Yes, there is experience. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness experience by which you feel..." Prabhupāda: No, no. Book means experience. Book means experience, not rascaldom. What is book? A scientific book means one scientist who has experienced, he is writing book. So book means experience. Without book, where is experience? Yaśomatīnandana: So he says that "You take the knowledge. You see the light, and you take the knowledge from Guru Maharaji." Prabhupāda: But you have taken the knowledge, why cannot you describe it. That means although you have got your Guru Maharaja, still you are in darkness. So what is the use of this Guru Maharaja? You are in darkness because you cannot explain. You're asking me to go to Guru Maharaja. But if you are enlightened, why you cannot explain? Therefore you are in darkness. They are useless as guru. You have not... He's a garu. He's garu. Yaśomatīnandana: Garu is mad, crazy. Prajāpati: They claim to see light inside, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but we say, "If we hit you on head, you will see light inside also." Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone sees. What is your credit? If I kick on your face, you will find the light. So come here, I shall kick on your face and you'll see the light. (laughter) There is no need of Guru Maha... Yaśomatīnandana: His disciples are usually very naive and very foolish. Prabhupāda: Unless they are foolish, how they can go there? Anyone who goes there, that means he is a foolish. That is the test. "A man is known by his company." Because all these rascals and fools go there, therefore he is a fool and rascal. It is concluded. Hṛdayānanda: It's a fact. They're all less intelligent. Yaśomatīnandana: I told him that "Have you seen Kṛṣṇa's universal form? Kṛṣṇa displayed His universal form just so that these rascals may not cheat you." They said, "I have seen universal form." I said "What did you see in the universal form? Did you see Śiva, Brahmā, all that?" He said, "I saw light, white light, in the universal form." That's all he saw in the universal form, white light. Factually they don't what universal form is. *Prabhupāda: No, no, don't waste your time with that. They are all third*-class rascals. Not even first-class rascals. Devotee: They say that we are searching after the saguṇa form. They are looking for the viśvarūpa, and we are looking for saguṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: The Viśvarūpa also has a form. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why do you waste your time by talking with these rascals? Take it for granted they are set of rascals. That's all. [break] Karandhara: ...teach you about Guru Maharaji. So we just threw him out. [break] Prabhupāda: "If we want your teaching, we shall go to you. Why you have taken the trouble to come here? Please go out." That's all. Yaśomatīnandana: Even though, Prabhupāda, we chastise them so severely, somehow or other they still have a soft corner for the devotees. They are feeling guilty. Prabhupāda: They must have. Yes, they must have. They know they are culprit. But for their party's sake they are thinking or saying, "We are right. We are right." Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes. Cause they are not sincere enough. Hṛdayānanda: We have one devotee who was a member there. Now he is a devotee. There is one of our members. He is just a young boy and he went to the Guru Maharaji, and then when he heard our philosophy, now he is with us. Bāṇabhaṭṭa. Now he is a nice devotee. Just as you always say that a sincere person cannot be misled. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will help him. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: This whole world is really nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have become fools and rascals. That's all. Yaśomatīnandana: So significant, this prayer. The whole world, including India. [break] Prabhupāda: ...difficulty is that because they are poverty stricken, they want some money now. They are thinking that "About God we shall think later on." Yaśomatīnandana: Is it all right to blame the government in public, Prabhupāda, in India? Prabhupāda: No, what is that government? Government is elected by the public. If public is polluted, the government must be polluted. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Public votes somebody, "Take charge of government." So if the public selects somebody nonsense, the government must be nonsense. *Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. In other words, to tell the public that "You should elect God*-conscious leaders to have a better society." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is our propaganda, that "This is the standard of leadership. So if you elect first*-class leader, then your government will be first-class. But if you elect some rogues and thieves, drunkards, then how you can expect good government?" This is natural. After all, democracy means the public elect. The public does not know how to distinguish the rogues and thieves. Therefore the rogues and thieves take the advantage of it and, somehow or other, and take vote and sit on the presidential chair. That is difficulty. Just like our propaganda is... We are not making any propaganda in the beginning, that "Stop this cow slaughter." We are educating people, "Don't eat meat." If people become educated, automatically the slaughterhouse will be closed. This is our propaganda. "Don't drink." So if people give up drinking, automatically the drinking business will be closed. Prajāpati: You have given us this instruction, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to confront these leaders. We understand that this is your very much wish and we shall do everything we can to try to fulfill your desire. Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Do it. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in the car) Prabhupāda: If you can educate the people. "Don't vote for the rascals. Just try to understand who is the real man, who is the real leader." Hṛdayānanda: So political program is very important. Prabhupāda: Yes. If public is educated to select right type of leader, then automatically... And it is very easy thing that "Leader must be faithful. A leader must know what is God and how to trust in Him. And he must be free from all sinful activities. The pillars of sinful activities are these." This is our propaganda. (end) Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...two classes of men: the communist and the non*-communist. Not exactly communist and capitalist, but communist and non-communist. Out of these two, the communists are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that's all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain "so-called trust in God." That will not be possible. So according to our proposition... Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayaḥ. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara? Karandhara: No, no significant change. Prabhupāda: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, "In God we Trust." It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surāsura, demigods and the asuras. God, Viṣṇu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Viṣṇu will take side of anyone of them? "You fight and go to hell." That is going on. [break] Umāpati: ...I think that we were discussing the political possibilities of putting devotees into office, and we came up with the astounding discovery that we almost represent everything that is against western values. We represent austerity. We represent God consciousness. We represent restriction of sexual freedom, intoxication. All the four regulative principles are almost totally in opposite to western desires. Prabhupāda: That means western people are all demons. Umāpati: So the problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances, to make that known that "We stand for this," and to have anybody vote for you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Nobody may vote but we must go on preaching. That I have already explained, some of the university. The whole country is illiterate. Does it mean university should be stopped? University must be there. One who is fortunate will come and take education. It is not an argument that "People are illiterate. They don't care for it. Therefore let the university be closed." This is no argument. Yaśomatīnandana: Gradually they will develop attraction. Prabhupāda: Yes, we have to work. That is preaching. You don't think preaching is so easy going. Eating, sleeping, and sometimes chanting, "Haribol," that's all. That is not preaching. We must be ready to implant Kṛṣṇa consciousness ideas, throughout the whole world. Umāpati: That probably won't happen overnight, though. *Prabhupāda: The Deity worship program is meant for us to keep us safe. If we neglect Deity worship, we shall also fall. But that is not the all duty finished. Arcāyām eva haraye pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate. Arcā means Deity. If anyone is worshiping the Deity very nicely, but na tad*-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, but he does not know anything more, who is devotee, who is nondevotee, what is the duty to the world, sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ, he is material devotee. He is material devotee. So we have to take the responsibility to understand who is actually a pure devotee and what is our duty to the people in general, and then you make advancement. Then you become madhyama-adhikārī. Madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. Just like these people, either in India or here, they remain simply churchianity, going to the church without any understanding. Therefore it is failing. It is now... Churches are being closed. Similarly, if you do not keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will be all closed in due course of time. Without preaching, you'll not feel enthused to continue the temple worship. And without temple worship, you cannot keep yourself pure and clean. The two things must go on, parallel. Then there is success. In modern time, either Hindus, Muslim or Christian, because in these places there is no teaching of philosophy, therefore they are closing, either mosque or temple or church. They will close. Prajāpati: They can show no good result for their activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is preaching. Therefore we are writing so many books. Unless we take care of the books and preach and read ourself, understand the philosophy, this Hare Kṛṣṇa will be finished within few years. Because there will be no life. How long one can artificially go on, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haribol!" That will be artificial, no life. Yaśomatīnandana: That's right Prabhupāda. We are so foolish, we never realize anything unless you tell us like that. Without preaching... *Prabhupāda: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well*-conversed with the philosophy which we are putting... That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhāgavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. But it is not ordinary writing. *Umāpati: I have tried to put your Bhagavad*-gītā into some schools, and they say, "Well," some of them, if they do have a Bhagavad-gītā, they say, "Well, we have a Bhagavad-gītā." I say, "This is an entirely different understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā," and they say, "Well, it's just somebody else's opinion and we don't have that much interest in a variety of opinions on the same book." Prabhupāda: It is not the opinion. We are placing the..., as it is, without opinion. Umāpati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those... *Prabhupāda: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy*-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: When you came to the western world, no one anywhere believed that it would be successful I think. But actually, it has become very successful, by preaching. Prabhupāda: I myself did not believe I shall be successful, what to speak of others, but because I did in the proper line, so it has become successful. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that we expect something and He gives us hundred times more. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Yaśomatīnandana: So if we simply follow your instructions, then I am sure that it will come out glorious. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: So if we are in the proper line, then our political activities also can become successful? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Why not? Kṛṣṇa was in politics. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means all*-round: social, political, philosophical, religious, cultural, everything. It is not one-sided. They take it as... They do not know. Therefore they are thinking it is a religious movement. No, it is all-including, all-including, all-pervasive. Umāpati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the constitution requiring separation of church and state, what they call separation of church and state in this country. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated. Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics. Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics? Umāpati: Well, they can't do it as... Karandhara: Not the churches. *Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha, not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad*-gītā. There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion. So how you can make separate? Karandhara: Well, you can't, but they do. Prabhupāda: They do everything, but they are demons. They do mental concoction. Karandhara: Basically, they want (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Why these politician says, "In God we believe, we trust"? Why this nonsense? Umāpati: They fear theocracy. They fear being ruled by a priestly class. That is a very old fear in the west. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. But if the politicians, administration, trust in God, that becomes religious. How they separate? Currency note is economic problem. So how they are mixing with God? They are contradictory. You cannot separate God from any field of activities. And religion, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Our definition of religion is to abide by the order of God. So does it mean, the politicians they do not abide by the orders of God? Then why do they write, "In god we trust"? Karandhara: Well before, traditionally... Prabhupāda: Not before or now. What we are speaking on the actual fact, that how they are writing, "In God we trust." As soon as you bring in God, that is religion. That is general meaning. Karandhara: There is a movement to take that off the money. Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to start this movement seriously, not to take that. You cannot change it. Then you become demons. Therefore I am warning you that before they, these rascals change, you take the advantage of it, that "You cannot change. Then you become demons, you (are) animals. If you withdraw your trust from God, then you are animals. So we are not going to be governed by the animals." That should be the people's voice. Educate people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and they will yell, "No, we are not going to be governed by the animals. We want real men." That should be your demand. Therefore I am warning you, that before they do that, you become strong, so that they cannot do it. Rather, they may understand, "Yes, what we are speaking is all right." That is preaching. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Actually, when they formed the country and made the constitution, the concept was they were basically they believed in God, but they were afraid that some religion would become politically powerful and disturb the... *Prabhupāda: So what does...? But that means they do not understand what is meant by religion. They are thinking religion means some fanatical faith. They are meaning that. That is the whole world conception of religion. But actual religion we are now preaching, actual, what is religion. Religion means... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all rascal religion. Surrender unto Me." So who is a sane man who will deny, "No, I don't surrender to God"? Who is a sane man? He must be insane. Anyone who says that "I don't like God, I don't like to surrender unto Him," then he must be insane. He has already surrendered. He is going on under the condition of surrender, but it is not done very... Just like a prisoner. He is already surrendered to the government. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." This is the position. He's a madman. The state arrests him, kicks him, and puts him in the jail. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." So what can be done? "We don't care for the government." Just like Gandhi started civil disobedience movement, disobedience to the government laws, but all the whole stock was put into jail and they were beaten with shoes. But still, they said, "No, we are..." This is an example. Similarly, everyone is obeying, surrendering to God. But because they are rascal and fools, they are denying that we have surrendered. This is their position, madness. nobody can stay without surrendering to God. It is not possible. Umāpati: Well, in a madhouse, a sane man is the only one considered mad. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is already there. So we have to act by the order of Kṛṣṇa, not by the votes of the madmen. Just see the fun. Everyone is under control. Who is free? It is simply illusion. They are thinking, "I am free." Nobody is free. Under the stringent laws of nature, and still, he is thinking, "I don't care for God." This is madness. This is madness. Already under the laws of God, but still, he's protesting, "No, I don't care for God. There is no God." So we have to save these madmen from further deterioration. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Umāpati: Can a living entity ever lose his existence? *Prabhupāda: What you have studied in the Bhagavad*-gītā? Umāpati: Well I have never seen that it's possible. *Prabhupāda: No, what is your understanding from Bhagavad*-gītā? Umāpati: That we are eternal, that we have always been and always will be. Prabhupāda: Yes, then how you can think of it? Why do you question this? Umāpati: Well, because God's inconceivable. I just... Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. He is accepting the different types of bodies, but he is eternal. One body finished. That does not mean he is finished. He is transferred to another body according to his desire. He is never finished. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Yaśomatīnandana: Avināśi tu tad viddhi. *Prabhupāda: Ah, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam. [break] ...is correct. We can face any so*-called philosopher, any. Any so-called scientist. Any so-called politicians. You must be strong enough to have your firm conviction, that "We can face anyone rascal and defeat him." [break] ...and logic, argumentum vaculum. You know that? In logic there is a thesis or argumentum vaculum. Means no argument, but with stick and gun, you see. "If you don't believe, then here is stick and gun." That is called argumentum vaculum. So we have to make our position so strong that anyone who does not believe in God, he should be finished. Umāpati: We had a president that used to believe in that. He is finished. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. [break] Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must... [break] This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons? Karandhara: Well, he's a rascal. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. This kind of election is rascal election. It has no meaning. Therefore the public must know whom to elect and how to elect. That should be our propaganda. Because nowadays it is democratic government, teach people how to select the real leader. Real leader means who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned, who does not cheat and who has no imperfect senses, who has, or, other words, one who has got perfect senses. So if you say, "How it is possible for the conditioned soul?" "Yes, it is possible if you follow the perfect." Just like we are doing. We are following Kṛṣṇa. He does not commit mistake, He is not illusioned, His senses are not imperfect, and He does not cheat. We are following. Therefore, although we are imperfect, because we are following the perfect, our proposition is perfect. A child may be illiterate, but when he's taught, "Write A like this," and he follows that, he becomes literate. This is the policy. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many years ago you once gave the example that when the master craftsman is working and he has got an apprentice, when the apprentice works, it is also considered the same quality because he is under the direction of the master. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are under direction of a perfect teacher, then your conclusion is perfect. The difficulty is that we are following imperfect teachers. Blind men. And what is the benefit of following a blind man? If the man is himself a blind man and if he follows another blind man, what benefit he will get? Both of them will fall into the ditch. That is going on. Just like this rascal Guruji Maharaja. He is a rascal and he is preparing so many rascals. And there are so many others. They are doing the same mischief, and there is no control by the government. The government is rascal. Government does not know who is real, who is imitation. Otherwise they should have checked immediately. But they do not check. They do not know. Prajāpati: In the constitution is written in religious freedom. You should let... Anyone who wants to practice anything, it's all right in the constitution. Prabhupāda: Religious freedom means everyone is rascal and every religion is rascaldom. So how they can check? They cannot check. Let it be. Go on. Karandhara: It also says that has restrictions. Religious practices which harm people or are detrimental to the public good, they are checked. Prabhupāda: So... Now here, why do they not check? A rascal, cheater, and he is presenting himself as God, and why the government is allowing him? Rather, we should bring a case that why government, against the constitution, is allowing this rascal that he is declaring that he is God? What qualification he has got? let it be decided in the court. We should do that. Svarūpa: We have to make definition of religion. Prabhupāda: That we shall give in the court. "First of all this man is declaring himself as God, cheating. Why he should not be stopped?" Let there be case. This should be done. Yaśomatīnandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. If the constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done. So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case that "This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court." Why not institute a case? Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government. Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check? Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yaśomatīnandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves. Prabhupāda: That everyone is taking chance. A poor man is taking chance to become rich man. So what is the difference between the poor man taking chance and the scientist? [break] Yaśomatīnandana: : ...which into all the characteristics are described in Divine and Demoniac natures. This modern world fits into all the demoniac qualities... Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are godless. Whole modern world is godless. They don't think of God very seriously. Everyone. They have described it as "Opiate," what is that? Karandhara: "Opium of the people." Prabhupāda: Yes. They think, "Those who are religious, they are simply wasting their time." Therefore communist country, they are completely against religion. They cannot allow their people to waste their time. That is their philosophy. This is the condition of the world. Karandhara: Because the monarchs of the past days, they used religion to suppress the people so severely in Russia that... Prabhupāda: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does it mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: The śūdra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. [break] *Prabhupāda: This idea also. Now there should be examination whether so*-called brāhmaṇas, they are actually following the brāhmaṇa regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again śūdra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, "Now chant this Gāyatrī-mantra." He must. Are they doing properly? Karandhara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Otherwise, simply by name, so*-called sacred thread holder will not do. Then again the same brahminical class as in India. [break] ...Paraśurāma. You know Paraśurāma? Karandhara: The incarnation? *Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the kṣatriyas were not doing exactly, he twenty*-one times massacred them. Finish! And those who, kṣatriyas, fled from India, they came to Europe. So the European means they are coming from the kṣatriya descendant, but they have forgotten their own culture. Indo-aryan. [break] ...strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That's a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was behaving in His life and that He was teaching. [break] ...behave like spiritual man. Then you can teach. If you don't behave, then how you can teach? [break] ...was brought here. It is more important than the Ganges. [break] One side, there is unrestricted sex life, and other side, stop population. But they cannot take this restricted sex life. Only fault! So if you restrict your sex life that "I shall not beget more than one child or two child," then where is the question of this abortion and contra...? But they, that they cannot. They will have unrestricted sex life; at the same time, they will check overpopulation. Prajāpati: They trust the doctors, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the medical men. Prabhupāda: Whatever... His fault is that "I can restrict. I will not have sex life unless it is needed for begetting children." Prajāpati: The psychologists say it is unhealthy to go without sex life. The men these people trust, the psychologists, psychiatrists, say it is unhealthy. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also, we know. But there is a process. Just like brahmacārī process is there, sannyāsī process is there. So if you adopt the process, you can restrict. [break] Prajāpati: ...told Śrīla Prabhupāda, that it was published in a nationwide magazine. They showed that where people's trust was. They weren't trusting anything very much, but they trusted the medical people number one, and organized religion as such was way, way down, number eight or so. Why are people trusting the doctors so much? Prabhupāda: Because they are under this impression the doctors are scientifically advanced. But the doctors' science is also imperfect. Because they do not know what is the soul. They do not believe in soul. Karandhara: They trust the doctors the first, and they trust television the second. Prabhupāda: Television. Karandhara: Whatever they see on television, they accept. Prabhupāda: Why they give so much authority to television? Karandhara: Well, everyone watches it. So they just become indoctrinated. Prajāpati: That is their altar in their home. It is in a permanent place in the center of their house, and they put flowers on top and they worship like that. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Umāpati: It's intoxication also. Prabhupāda: After all, they accept authority. Either the doctor or the television, is it not? *Yaśomatīnandana: Now they should accept Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes. They cannot say that they don't want authority. They cannot say. The authority is already there. Karandhara: Well, the common people are crying for authority, leadership. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to teach them how to elect leader. These are the qualification of the leaders. He must not be sinful. Then he can be. [break] ...people will find in our camp. [break] Prajāpati: : ...one philosopher atheist by the name Bertrand Russell, he tries to prove that God does not exist by saying that people who say God exists, say that God is, everything has a cause and that the first cause is God, and Bertrand Russell says, "Well, if everything has a cause, then God also must have a cause. So that, there must be no God." Prabhupāda: If God has cause, then he is not God. That is the difference between God and everything. Everything has got cause, but God has not cause. Therefore he is God. That, the rascal, he does not know. He equalizes God and everything on the same level. Then what is the meaning of God? If He hasn't got the extraordinary qualification, then how he is God? He is everything. He does not know. Why there is distinction between God and everything? Because God is not caused by everything, but everything is caused by God. That is the difference. [break] ...is equal to God, then everything is God. That is going on, Māyāvāda philosophy. [break] Umāpati: I just know when I close my eyes, it's dark. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...of the same quality, then what is the necessity of another God? It is a conclusion like this, that in the hospital everyone is patient. Therefore doctor is also patient because he's in the hospital. In the prisonhouse they're all prisoners. Therefore the superintendent of police he is also prisoner. Or the governor comes to see, visit, he is also prisoner. It is conclusion like that. God means He has got a special potency that He exists without any cause. Sva*-rāṭ. This word is used in Bhāgavatam, sva-rāṭ: "completely independent." Who is that rascal, Bernard Russell? He is a well... Yaśomatīnandana: Bertrand Russell. Yeah, British philosopher. He died probably. He died long time ago? *Umāpati: He is very fashionable. He was leader of anti*-war demonstrators, and he was very man-conscious, thinking that man could solve all his problems. Prabhupāda: But he could not solve his own problems. He died. So was he a man or dog? [break] Yaśomatīnandana: ...philosophy. Because this whole world is made of asses, therefore asses' philosophy is given so much importance, donkeys. Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya (end) Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...is contamination. Just like when a person is diseased, you find so many extra chemicals in his body. So a diseased person produces such chemicals, not that chemicals are the agents for his life. Try to understand. When a living entity is pure, when he becomes impure, these chemicals are produced out of... Exactly the same thing, just like when a man becomes contaminated, infected with some disease, you will find so many extra things, germs and chemicals in his body. So these extra chemicals, germs, are not responsible for his living condition. Because he is living and because in an awkward condition, therefore these things have been produced by him. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But how about the normal chemicals which are... *Prabhupāda: Normal chemicals must be. Then of the whole world... The material world is made of chemicals. So wherever you go and see, the chemicals in different, what is called, element, they are present. You cannot see but chemicals because you have no eyes to see the soul. So you simply see the chemicals which is produced by the soul. Just like anything you keep for some time, when it is decomposed, you find so many chemicals, extra. So now they are mistaking. The chemicals are not... They are effects, they are not cause. When a thing is decomposed, you'll find so many extra chemicals. Our point is that because a thing is decomposed, so many chemicals come out, not that on account of these chemicals it has given... A dead body. A dead body*-not that because the chemicals have come, therefore he is dead, no. Because the body is dead, therefore so many chemicals have been produced. Try to convince this rascal like that, that "You are seeing the extra chemicals. They are not cause, they are effect." Sometimes when a rascal cannot understand two things, which is cause and which is effect, they misunderstand effect as cause or cause and effect. That is imperfect knowledge, illusion, taking the effect as cause. That is their mistake. Whole basic principle of their knowledge is mistake, illusion, on account of imperfect senses, and they are cheating. On account of imperfect senses, they cannot understand what is cause and what is effect. And without knowledge, they have become teacher. Therefore they are not teacher but cheater. This is the conclusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if these chemicals are made, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the environment is not favorable to enter the soul, then the chemicals... *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say on account of the environment, these chemicals are produced. Therefore I say. When a man is diseased*-the environment has changed-other extra chemicals comes out. It is the environment. I am also pointing out that. The environment is the cause. Chemicals produced in the body of a dead body, you cannot produce in the laboratory because the environment is different. Unless you find out a dead body, that chemicals you cannot manufacture. How can you find out the chemicals of dead body in a living body? Get up. Yes. (laughing) So pay; then the chemical is produced. Without payment, then there is no chemical. Cause is the payment. These rascals, they do not understand this. [break] ...goes to fight in Vietnam, what is the philosophy? Who will answer? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to stop spread of communism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. (?) (dog barking loudly) Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Kotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution. Svarūpa Dāmodara: After revolution? Prabhupāda: Ah. Because I said about authority... So this is fact. Now, in Russia the authority was the Czar. Now, after this Bolshevik revolution, Lenin became authority. That was his point. I said that you have to accept one authority. That you cannot change. That he said, that "Yes, that I accept, but authority has to be changed by revolution." And yes, we accept that. But the ult... When you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness authority, then there is no more necessity of change." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Everyone is trying to achieve the greatest profit. So when he gets Kṛṣṇa, he is satisfied. No more profit. Final profit. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. So there is no more necessity of revolution because that is the ultimate peaceful condition. So if you do not come to the ultimate condition of peace, then this revolutionary method will go on, continue. There will be no cessation of revolution, one after, one... That is māyā, illusion. I am thinking by going a few steps, mirage, I will get the water. But there is no water at all. It is simply illusion. And as soon as you go a few steps forward, you see that the water has gone away, again, few steps forward. You go again. Again you see. This is going on. So animal, they go forward after the mirage. But a sensible man, he knows that "This is not water. It appears like water, but it is not water." Therefore we are making revolution, changing one authority from another, but we do not know they are not authorities. Real authority is Kṛṣṇa. That is their... Therefore it is called illusion or māyā. We are thinking that "From this ism to that ism." Just like there was French Revolution. So the French people are not happy. Still there is unhappiness. Similarly, Bolshevism. We have seen practically in Moscow. Nobody is happy. There cannot be happiness. This is going on. So real happiness is Kṛṣṇa. That, people should know. The chemical evolution also, it is also māyā. They are thinking by further improvement, just like you were speaking, almost come to the point... That "almost coming to the point," that will continue. You will never come to the point. This is the position. You'll never come to the right point. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the concept of chemical evolution, when this fails, then they have to accept that there is a Supreme Being. This will also fail. Prabhupāda: No, this will fail. It is already failed. But because they are... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but they are still hoping. Prabhupāda: ...they are fools and rascals, they are still hoping against hope. That's it. It is already failed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are not fully convinced yet. Prabhupāda: Because they are not intelligent. There is a Bengali word, dekhe sekhe teke seke. (?) Mean when one who is intelligent, he is seeing the things, he is understanding, "Oh, the consequence of such action is this." So... And another man is so fool. Unless he is actually in that position, he will not learn. One is learning by seeing only and another is learning by actually being in that position. So who is intelligent? Yaśomatīnandana: One who is learning by seeing. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who knows that these material things, it has got a beginning and it has got an end... In every day we see that. Even with our body we see that it has a beginning and it has an end. I have seen my father was born and he died. So I am also born; I'll also die. My son is also born; my son will die. This is real experience. But if somebody says that "I shall not die. We are trying to become immortal," so that is foolishness. That is foolishness. By experience from time immemorial, historical reference, there is no such thing as immortality. But if somebody says, "By chemical evolution we shall become immortal..." Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness proposition is that human life is meant for factual knowledge or ultimate knowledge. But these rascals are checking that progress. That means the prerogative of human life is being denied to the human society. So this kind of hindrances should be stopped, either by soliciting or even by force, because the human society is being ruined. These things have to be stopped. Therefore I was inquiring that "Why American went to Vietnam?" To stop communism, but that sort of stopping will not make any solution. We have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition. [break] Prajāpati: As soon as we define what demoniac civilization is, then no one will support us because they'll see that they themselves are demons. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are demons they cannot understand. Just like one Christian priest went to some quarters, mine, gold mine. So he was describing that "If you do not worship Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell." So they asked, "What is hell?" So when he began to describe-"It is always wet. It is dark. There is no sufficient air, so on, so on"*-they could not understand what is hell because they are already in the hell, in the mine. They could not make any distinction that darkness is a very horrible thing. Similarly, these demons they cannot understand what is demonism. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. What is that āsura-bhāva? Not to accept God. This is āsura-bhāva. This is demonism. This is the basic principle of... Everyone is trying to deny God. Therefore they are demons. Who was telling that the medical man is considered to be first-class authority? Devotee: That was Prajāpati. Prajāpati: That's what the people believe. They have more trust in medical men than they do in anything else. Prabhupāda: Yes. But medical man also does not understand what is that thing missing which makes this body dead. And still, he is placing himself as authority, as scientific man, and people are accepting. That is demonism. He cannot explain. A man is dying. He is applying his scientific processes, what is called that gas, oxygen gas, and other injection, and in spite of doing all these things, he finds at a moment that the man is dead. And when you ask him that "In spite of your all scientific appliances, why the man is dead?" And still, he has become authority, such foolish man that this man cannot explain that in spite of all his efforts, scientifically, a man is dead. Now what he will answer? He has seen his all kinds of scientific appliances and applied but the man is dead. Now let him explain why the man is dead. Can he explain? Prajāpati: Not to our satisfaction. Prabhupāda: No, no, satisfaction or not satisfaction, what he will answer possibly? Now, you are scientist. You can... What he will say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He will say that it is above his means. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are a fool. Why you are becoming authority? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He will say that "I have tried my best, but I cannot do it." Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means you do not know. A child also tries his best, but he cannot do. That does not mean he becomes authority. Prajāpati: He will say that there needs to be certain conditions... Prabhupāda: What is that condition? Prajāpati: ...for the sustenance of life. Prabhupāda: No, no, certain conditions, that is not... That is vague. You say what is that condition. Then you are authority. Prajāpati: Electrical charge in the heart. Prabhupāda: Then do it, do it. Electricity is there. Prajāpati: Well, they are able to take some people. Their heart has stopped, they seem to be dead, they inject electrical nodes in the heart and they bring them back to life. Prabhupāda: Back to life how long? Prajāpati: Life can continue. Prabhupāda: Continue forever? Prajāpati: No. Prabhupāda: Then? He'll die. That is another thing. He'll die. Why he'll die? What is that condition? If you say, "chemical condition," now, as chemist, if you say, "The chemical condition has changed," we'll reply, "No chemical condition has changed." So produce life. No chemical condition has changed because life will come out immediately. So many germs and worms, they will come out. So where is the chemical condition of producing life is changed? How can you say? But that life is not coming. That Mr. John, his life is not coming. Therefore he is an individual soul. Otherwise the chemical condition is there. Otherwise how these germs and worms are coming out? But Mr. John is not coming. Therefore it is conclusion that "This is individual soul. He has gone, but he is not coming." But other living beings are coming out. Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the condition of the soul, innumerable souls, within the body? Like the cells. All are living cells. These all contain individual souls. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So what these individual souls are doing to support the bigger soul? Prabhupāda: No, they are living individually. Just like there are many germs in your stool. Because the stool is there, they are living. That is their perfect condition of living. That's all. But that germs has nothing to do with this individual soul, Mr. John. Just like I am living, you are living, but we are all independent different souls. They are living in their own condition, you are living in your own condition. But when you go to office to work, you find so many others are also working. But that does not mean they are dependent on your working or you are dependent on their work. But the condition is like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like I am the proprietor of these souls. Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not proprietor, nobody is proprietor. You are put into that condition by God. Real proprietor is God. You are simply placed in that condition, that's all. That is your dependence on the condition offered by God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But just like in a office, the boss is working and there are different clerks. There are secretaries helping him. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the boss is the chief man who is giving work: "You like this. You work like this. You work like this. You work like this." Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I am the boss. Prabhupāda: No, you are not boss. You are also one of the workers. Prajāpati: Are you telling how the stomach to digest and how the hair to grow and how the... Prabhupāda: No, you are not... Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I am talking about the relationship between my, so many individual souls, the cells, and my spirit soul. *Prabhupāda: Relationship... Wherever you go, there is some relationship. That is... That inter*-relationship is already there. I am walking on this sand. I have got some relationship. If the sand would have been soft, I could not walk. So the relationship is there already, intermingled. But what is the central relationship? That is wanted, to know. That is God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when the cells, my cells in the body, they are not working, my soul goes away. As so long as I am here... Prabhupāda: That is your theory that because the cells were working, the man was living. That is your theory. But our theory is that because he was there, the cells were working. That is our theory. Because the soul was there, therefore the cells were working. But you take... That I have already explained. You take the cause as effect, and effect as... Because you have no sufficient knowledge. Therefore in illusion, you take the cause as effect or effect as cause. You do not know what is the cause and what is the effect. Prajāpati: But the doctors, they can say, "Oh, this man has disease of the blood. He will die in six months." Prabhupāda: That is experience. Suppose if I can say that "If you go hundred feet, then you'll fall in the water," is that very good scientific knowledge? It is a question of experience. Why do you take it as wonderful? "Oh, he said that if you go a hundred yards, you'll fall in the water. Now I have fallen in the water." That is your foolishness. Any fool can say like that. He must have little experience, that's all. That is not very wonderful thing. Neither it is creation by him. Experience. Prajāpati: Then they can say, "Well if we can cure this blood disease, he will live." Prabhupāda: There was one physician in Dacca. He was... Morning, he was washing his face. So one man was going, and he was coughing. So he asked that man, "Come here. Where you are going?" So he was a cultivator-"I am going to the field." So he said, "Better go home. Don't go to the field." So he was a respectable physician, so he went back. So his students asked that, "How is that, you asked him to go home?" So he chastised his stu..., "You do not know that he is coughing and the sound is like this? He will die after eight hours." It is experience. The students did not know but he could understand, "Coughing under such and such sound, it means death after such and such time." Yes. That, kavirāja can tell. When my father died, the kavirāja said, "Now you can do the rituals because he will die before next morning." He said. And actually it so happened. He said me this about ten, eleven o'clock, and he said exactly, "Before next morning he'll die." So that is experience. If you say, "After twenty days the month of January is coming," the child cannot understand, "How father said that twenty days after, January is coming?" But it is better experience only that one can say, "Today is 10th, and after twenty days, 1st January, will come." Everything is experience but supreme experience is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore if we receive experience from Him, then our experience becomes perfect. This is our proposal. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If I am the boss of my body... Prabhupāda: You are boss of your body in the sense that you can utilize your body in any manner you like, so much. But there are other condition which is beyond your... Suppose... so long you are living, you can utilize your body, your senses, to understand the ultimate goal of life. But you cannot utilize your life in such a way that you will never die. That is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I am controlled also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you understand that? You are controlled always. [break] You are walking. This is also controlled. At any moment you can be paralyzed, at any moment. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So even I am not the boss of my body, then? *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is said. Why don't you read Bhagavad*-gītā? Prajāpati: Should also this be the responsibility of the government to protect people from having to take dog body? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the government's duty, that the citizens may not degrade. That is government's duty. Now, just like a father thinks, "Now, these children have come under my protection. I must see they get proper education and make advancement of life." It is the father's duty. And if the father thinks, "Let him go to hell." That's all. Nowadays fathers are doing like that. That is not father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that the citizen must make progress. But they do not know what is means by progress, what is the aim of life. They do not know. They are demonic. How they will guide? They think, like cats and dogs, "If you get fatty and you can eat more, then your life is successful." Their thinking is very poor. Simply physical strength, they think that is success. But he does not think that physical, the elephant has physical strength so much, the tiger has physical strength so much, but what is the use of their life? After all, it is an animal. But they are thinking like that, "If you get strength like an elephant or like tiger, then your life is successful." They're thinking like that. But because they do not know what is the aim of life, what is the goal of life. A dog does not know what is the aim of life. But even if I say that "This is the aim of life," it will not understand because the body is different. But a human being can understand. Therefore there are so many books of knowledge. So if they do not get proper knowledge, that means they are missing the point. [break] ...tāvad abodha*-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam: "So long one does not come to the point of understanding the spirit soul, whatever he is doing he is being defeated because the main point is missing." Like cats and dogs he is accepting this material body as self, and he is working on that platform. Therefore his life is being spoiled. [break] Our mission is to save human being from being spoiled like animals. That is our mission. The greatest humanitarian work. [break] Prajāpati: Kṛṣṇa has given us free will to choose or reject the godly life. Should the government take away that free will of whether they choose to... *Prabhupāda: No, that free will is not to be given. It is already there. Rather, Kṛṣṇa says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva*-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." There is also free will. When you come to the Kṛṣṇa platform you serve Kṛṣṇa with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing Kṛṣṇa nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The Māyāvādī philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that "Stop this free will, and then you become happy." But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, "Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong." That is their proposition. Nirviśeṣa-vādī. Nirviśeṣa means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirviśeṣa. And śūnya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that. There is no zero, and there is no varieties. We don't say. There is, but it's purified varieties. Tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means purified. So our process is to purify everything. We don't want to stop. That is not our proposition. They cannot find out any solution. Therefore they want to make stop: "Stop this business." Suppose a business is not going very nicely. It is going at loss. Somebody says, "Close it." But one experienced man comes: "Why should you close? All right, I shall do it properly. You'll get profit." So who is better? One, by disappointment, he says, "Close this business. There is no profit." And another man says, "No, don't close it. We shall make you profit. We shall show you profit. Just manage it properly." This is our proposition. We don't say that "Stop all these material activities." No. Just do it properly so that you get real profit and real benefit. That is our program. We don't want to make it zero, no. Why shall I make it zero? [break] ...can be taken just like there is business, but the workers, the assistants, they have no idea who is the proprietor. So everyone is doing something, taking pocket, something this, take pocket, his pocket, so how the business will go on nicely? That is being done. Everyone, these rascals, they have no idea who is the proprietor of this world. So they are doing in their nonsensical way. Therefore there is confusion. The business is not profitable. But if they accept, "No, the real proprietor is such and such gentleman, so he wants to do us like this," then the business will be profitable. Everyone is thinking that he is proprietor, so how this business will profit? This is the position. Everyone is thinking that he is the proprietor. He forgets that he is worker. He is not proprietor. That is the mistake. Therefore the business is mismanaged, and there is no profit, simply chaos. That is the position. [break] ...says in the Bhagavad-gītā, Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that proprietor stage is relative. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is relative. Relative means you are servant. You must satisfy by your service to the proprietor and get your nice salary and be happy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Whatever He gives, you accept and be happy. That is Īśopaniṣad. You don't try to encroach upon others. You receive from the proprietor your emolution (emolument?) or your reward and be happy. That is Īśopaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything is God's property. You take your share. You have got right. Just like a father and the son. There are ten sons. Everyone has got the right to share the property of the father, but as the father gives, not that I take away the whole property and others, brothers, may starve. That is not allowed. That is criminal. Here in the material world everyone has come to get the best profit, without considering profit for others. Others may go to hell. "Others, let them go to the slaughterhouse. I must satisfy my tongue." That is material world. "No, why you are slaughtering other living entities?" "I don't care. I want to eat. That's all." So you have to pay for that. You cannot put others into difficulty because God is equally merciful to everyone. But you don't care for God. Therefore you do whimsically whatever you like. So you are putting yourself in difficulty. This is the position. [break] ...mahad*-guṇāḥ. Therefore without God consciousness, nobody is qualified. Nobody is qualified. Everyone is damned, condemned. [break] ...asato dhāvato bahiḥ. By mental speculation he will simply prolong his material existence, that's all. And that is troublesome. Material existence means just this. The dog is material existence. It is a standard of suffering. But he does not know. Under illusion he is thinking that "I am very happy." So everyone is thinking that "I am very happy," but he's in condemned condition. The pig. He is eating stool, living in a filthy place, but he is getting fat because he is thinking he is very happy. This is called illusion. You are thinking, "Oh, what a nasty condition. This animal is eating stool and living in a filthy place." But he is thinking that he is very happy. Unless he thinks like that, he cannot live in that condition. That is called illusion. He does not know what is the actual high standard of happiness. Prajāpati: Highest standard of happiness, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is simply to be in your association. Prabhupāda: Back to home, back to Godhead, that's all. This is highest standard of happiness. We are trying to take everyone to that place. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. Devotees: Thank you. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. (in the car) They are, the so*-called scientists, they are taking the effects as cause. That is illusion. Actually the soul has nothing to do with this, anything, material world, but according to the environment he is creating certain material condition. [break] I don't require liquor, but if I want to be intoxicated, then liquor is present. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Since I am conditioned in this material body... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as I condition, I create an environment which is material. Therefore these so*-called scientists, they have no eyes to see the spirit. They take this material condition as the cause of the spirit. And then again, when they find that in spite of presence of these chemicals, the life is not there, they are bewildered. They say, "Yes, we are trying to improve." Therefore they do not find the cells in the dead body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the cells are also dead in a dead body. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they do not find it. Cells may be dead or they do not find the cells, whatever it may be, but it was dependent on the life. [break] ...with my so many servants. When I die, the servants also go away. So you cannot say that "He was living because the servants were there." You cannot say. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because we are individual persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. The master has gone away. Therefore servants do not require to serve. They have dispersed. But you say that "Because the servants were there, the master was existing. Now the servants have left him, he is dead." You cannot say like that. [break] ...ever car, we are under control. Why the red light? Red light is control. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we are controlled every step. Prabhupāda: Every step. Karandhara: Any one of these cars could crash into us. We would not be able to... Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you transgress the law of control, you'll be crashed. So there is nature's control, and as soon as one goes against nature, he is finished. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...Prabhupāda told about the scientific... Prabhupāda: He was talking of all these materialistic persons as bokā or fools. So I repeat his word. Bokā. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Insects. Prabhupāda: Bokā means fool. You don't say this bokā? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bokā, insects, is that? Prabhupāda: Insane, yes. So they are all insane. Anyone who has no clear knowledge what is the aim of life, what is God, "what is my relationship," one who does not know all these things, he is a bokā, illusioned. He is hovering in darkness. Therefore, whatever he is doing, it is defeat. That we see practically. So many scientists, so many philosophers, politicians, are engaged to bring in a better condition in the world, but they are failure. In the darkness they are working. They do not know. One bokā is trying to excel another bokā. This is going on. [break] ...great personality, Rabindranath Tagore, he used to say, a bokā. Actually he is so. What he has done? He has given some imaginary songs, that's all. What benefit the people will derive out of it? Simply waste of time, that's all. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...could have written a lot of Vaiṣṇava songs, if he were a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Yes. But he borrowed the idea from Vaiṣṇava. His guru, not exactly guru... In his zamindari, Golpur, he was going to a Vaiṣṇava, Baul. But Baul is sahajiyā. So he got the idea of Vaiṣṇavism, but because he was not Vaiṣṇava, he presented his idea in a different way. That is his Gītāñjali. Gītāñjali is the depiction of the idea he got from that Baul. Svarūpa Dāmodara: His songs are so popular in Bengal. Prabhupāda: No, all over the world, more or less. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even I sang some of his songs when I was in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: There is idea, some Vaiṣṇava idea. (end) Morning Walk -- December 15, 1973, Los Angeles Svarūpa Dāmodara: The sky is quite clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Can you change it? Can you change it? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then what kind of scientist you are? Svarūpa Dāmodara: A rascal scientist. (Prabhupāda laughs) Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I put a question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Candanācārya: Yesterday I made the acquaintance of a theologist, a professor from the University of Montreal. He said that the Roman Catholic presentation of Christianity is that God came to share the suffering of man. Prabhupāda: That is another rascaldom. Why God should share the sufferings of man? Candanācārya: I asked him this, and he said, "So that man would accept more as reality, suffering." *Prabhupāda: Very good theologician. A rascal number one. You are trying for becoming happy, and his theory is that man will accept suffering. You see? The very proposition is rascaldom. Everyone is trying for to become happy. That is progress. Ātyantika. In Sanskrit it is called ātyantika*-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. There is suffering, and our struggle for existence means to, I mean to say, mitigate the suffering, to minimize or to make it nil. That is our struggle. We are not submitting to suffering. Then what is the civilization? What is human civilization: We don't want suffering. That is our position. Why this rascal says that "We shall suffer"? Just see. The theologician is a rascal. Therefore we say everyone rascal. Prajāpati: The same theologician, Prabhupāda, he calls himself an atheist theist. Prabhupāda: Eh? Candanācārya: He said, "I am an atheist theist." Prabhupāda: Atheist theist? What is this? Prajāpati: Just rascal, double talk. Prabhupāda: Another rascal. Another rascal proposition. Candanācārya: I asked him, "How can a theologist be an atheist?" Prabhupāda: The whole thing is that because the whole world is full of rascals, they are all talking nonsense. No meaning. No meaning. It is only we, we have pointed out that "You are a rascal. You speak all nonsense." Now, taking this word atheist, what does he mean by atheist? Candanācārya: Without theism? Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not explanation. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Atheist means not believing in God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Say like that. Don't say in a negative way. In a positive way. What does it mean? Atheist. Prajāpati: He says there is no God. Prabhupāda: There is no God. Then what do you mean by God? Next question. Next question will be what do you mean by God? Candanācārya: So he'll say the conception which has been presented by the different religions. Prabhupāda: What is your conception? Why do you go to different religions? You are talking with me. So you say, what do you mean by God? Next question will be this. Don't go to others. Don't fly away. You are atheist. You are posing yourself atheist. Atheist means one who does not believe in God. That's all right. Now what do you mean by God? First of all the thing must be there. Then you believe or not believe next. Just like here is a person. He says, "I believe in him." I say, "I don't believe in him." But the person is there. Karandhara: Well, he'll say, "God is just an idea." Prabhupāda: Idea? Karandhara: Yes. But ideas don't always represent facts. Prabhupāda: So idea is there. You say that it is not fact, but others say it is a fact. So how it will be mitigated? How it will be settled? "God" word is there. You say that it is an idea. Devotee: A "sky flower" is an idea, but it's not fact. Prabhupāda: No, just like God, let us stick on word, that God... You say it is an idea only. I say it is not an idea. It is fact. Karandhara: Well, then they say, "By objective empirical analysis it has to be researched, scientific." Prabhupāda: Oh, then let us analyze, analyze. Let us analyze. That... We say that God means Supreme, Supreme Being. So how you can say that Supreme Being is an idea? How you can say? You accept Supreme Being. So how you can say it is idea? It is fact. Karandhara: Well, they say there is no necessity for a Supreme Being. Prabhupāda: No, there's a necessity. If you don't accept, then you will be beaten with shoes. Because as soon as there is light, you have to accept supreme authority. Karandhara: But that's an authority we have imposed upon ourselves. Prabhupāda: Yes, because there is need, therefore you have done it. There is necessity. Karandhara: Well, some of them say, because people are generally ignorant, therefore we need this idea of God. Prabhupāda: But you are less than ignorant. You are less than ignorant. You are less than rascal. If I call you a rascal, then I give you some honor. Karandhara: Lenin said that God is just opiate of the people, just to keep them intoxicated. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That means Lenin wanted to become God. That's all. The God idea is there, but he cannot be God. Because he was under the laws of God, he died. He died. He could not save himself from death. Therefore he is not supreme authority. He accepted supreme authority, but he wanted himself to become the supreme authority. Now, when he died, he is not supreme authority. He is forced to die. Then there is another supreme authority. Karandhara: Well, then they can say ultimately death is meaningless anyway. Prabhupāda: Why meaningless? Then why you are afraid of death when I come to kill you? Karandhara: Well, that it's meaningless doesn't mean I can't place some value on it at any given point. Prabhupāda: Why meaningless? It has meaning. Then why you are fighting? Why you fought for Russian Revolution? Karandhara: Well, they give the example like numbers. Numbers are only useful for a purpose, but actually they are meaningless. Prabhupāda: The purpose is meaningless then. Then your purpose is meaningless. Karandhara: Yes, they say ultimately everything is meaningless. Prabhupāda: Then you are a rascal. You are working for meaningless things. Then you are a rascal. That's all. And that is my version, that you are a rascal number one. Karandhara: Well, they say everyone can introduce their own meaning to whatever they want. Prabhupāda: No, then why do you try to get many followers? Let them do their own work. Karandhara: No, to proliferate your own meaning. Prabhupāda: No, no, you have got own meaning. You be satisfied with your own meaning. I have got my own meaning. Why do you bother me? Karandhara: Well, my meaning may be to bother you. That may be part of my meaning. Prabhupāda: Then my meaning is to beat you with shoes. (laughter) Karandhara: Lenin, no one ever beat him. He was not beat. He beat everyone else. *Prabhupāda: No, no. He was also beaten*-by death. He died also. That means even if he is beaten, he will not accept it. He is such a rascal. He is such a rascal. He is being beaten every moment. He is becoming old. He is becoming diseased. He is dying. Still says, "I am not beaten. I am not beaten." Candanācārya: Actually, he still thinks that he's beating death because they put his body in a tomb... Prabhupāda: Yes, he is being beaten every moment, every second, and still, he will say, "I am not beaten." That is rascal number one. One is accepting that "Yes, I am being beaten." He is sane man. And one who says that "I am not beaten," he is getting old, and every moment he is being beaten, and still he says, "I am not beaten." Karandhara: Well they have a philosophy called existentialism, that so long something exists, we can place value on it, but when it ceases to exist, there is no remorse. There is nothing to lament. Prabhupāda: There is no nothing to lament, but why don't you exist? Why you struggle for existence? Karandhara: But they say if you have money in your hand, as long as you have it you can utilize it, but if you lose it, don't worry. It's nothing to lament. Prabhupāda: But they worry. I have practically seen. They cry. Karandhara: Well, they just fall short of their philosophy, the philosophy they hold as ideal. Prabhupāda: So, these are all no argument. No sane man will accept this argu... Karandhara: Most western people are so frustrated, they accept these philosophies wholeheartedly. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is frustration. That is not real life. That is another thing. *Karandhara: But like you say in Bhagavad*-gītā, they are so angry with all types of speculation that they become frustrated and disgusted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Frustration is not life. Frustration is frustration, disappointment. That is not life. Karandhara: They say that frustration is the only reality. Prabhupāda: No. That's for you. Karandhara: Absurd, the absurd philosophy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That means they do not know the value of life. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. That means rascaldom. That means rascaldom. Karandhara: One of their chief philosophers, his name was Camus. So after he was propounding this philosophy and writing many books, one night he was driving in his car, and he decided that "There's no meaning, so why not just drive my car off a cliff?" So he just drove his car off a cliff, finished himself off. Prabhupāda: Mad, madmen. Karandhara: But his books are in colleges especially. Millions and millions of students accept his books as practically gospel. Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter of the book? Karandhara: Subject matter of his books, that life is ultimately absurd. There is no real meaning to it. We place our own meanings on it, but those are... Prabhupāda: So you are trying... Why you are trying to explain it? Why you are trying to explain it? Karandhara: Yes, actually he is trying to make reason out of the absurdity. Prabhupāda: To prove absurd is his reason? That means absurd reason. Karandhara: Well, that's what he ultimately realized, that everything is absurd. There is no use speaking, writing or even living. Prabhupāda: No, no, the thing is that you are saying "absurd," I am saying, "not absurd." Who will settle up this? That is the... If you settle your own affair. I settle my own affair. So who will settle up, whether I am right, you are right? Śrutakīrti: It will be settled at death. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś ca. The death is equally acceptable by you and me, but... And it is also a fact you don't want to die; I also don't want to die. Then there is authority. Karandhara: No, but in his case he didn't care. He died willingly. Prabhupāda: No, no. He didn't care, but he always takes care. That is a fact. He always takes care. Karandhara: No, but on this instance, he died willingly. He wanted to die. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he might be pretending. Might be died, but he was thinking that he'll not (indistinct) Karandhara: But he killed himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, he did not want to die, but just to keep prestige, he might have died. That's all. Karandhara: I think he wanted to die. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then if you want to die, let me kill you immediately. You will be happy. Rūpānuga: He wrote another book called "Nausea" wherein he wrote how life made him sick to his stomach. Prabhupāda: That means madman. Sometimes madman commits suicide. He's a madman, that's all. Karandhara: Practically, in the last three hundred, or two hundred years, all the most famous writers, and scholars and intellectuals, they all became madmen. Prabhupāda: Yes, they must be, because they do not know what is to be known. Their knowledge is imperfect. Karandhara: Nietzsche, Freud, they all died madmen. Prabhupāda: Madman means when one becomes frustrated, he becomes mad. That is the... Karandhara: But the people, after them, they think that their lives were very great. They read their books and accept their authority. Prabhupāda: There are two classes of men. We don't say their life was great. So therefore I say, who will settle? I am right or he is right? Always you will find the madman will say, "I am right." Another man say, "You are not right; I am right." Then who will settle up? That is the point. You will find always these two classes of men. You say you are right, I say I am right. Candanācārya: But by committing suicide, didn't he accept that finally death was the only thing that was not absurd? Prabhupāda: Yes, for them the death is the only solution. Prajāpati: Rascals like such books, Prabhupāda, because it requires no commitment on their part. To read such men-"Oh, yes, that's very nice. I can read them and put them down." But it doesn't require me to trust in God or to do anything for the world. Prabhupāda: No. Books are written in favor: "If you want to know more about us, then here is book." Because from books, generally, we get knowledge. Otherwise book is not required. Very brilliant light. Śrutakīrti: It's an airplane. Prabhupāda: And if the light is little more brilliant, that means finished. If the same light becomes little more brilliant, that means finished, fall down immediately. It is a big aeroplane? [break] Prajāpati: Several years ago you gave a series of lectures in New York on atonement, that are very famous, and devotees, they relish them very much. Prāyaścitta. And this is also in Christian theology to a large extent, plus another concept called feeling very sorry for one's sinful activities. Prabhupāda: Repentant. Repentant? Prajāpati: No so much repentance. It is called... Karandhara: The classic idea is that one goes away and just lives in a state of remorse, solitude and remorse, thinking how sinful and wretched he is, and performing severe austerities. Prabhupāda: Huh? Karandhara: Going away, living in a monastery, performing severe austerities, and always contemplating how sinful and wretched we are and how we must suffer. Prabhupāda: Everyone is suffering. But one who knows that he is suffering, he is intelligent. (Aside): Good morning. Everyone is suffering. If you are not suffering, why you have covered? Why you have covered? Because you are suffering, is it not? Why you are not naked body? Because we are suffering, therefore we have covered. It is a fact. And if somebody says, "No, we are not suffering," then he's a madman. So everyone is suffering. One who knows it, he is intelligent man. That's all. Rūpānuga: They have no positive philosophy. They stress guilt. They are always guilty. They have no positive philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. No... Then the next question is that "If there is a positive philosophy to mitigate the suffering, why don't you accept it?" Just like when one body is suffering, I say, "Take this blanket. Cover." If he says, "No, I am not going to take it," is that sane man? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then he will continue suffering if he doesn't accept. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our proposition that everyone is suffering and struggling, how to stop the suffering. This is material world. Everyone is suffering. And the struggle is called progress. So we are offering something also: "Here is something, you accept it, and your sufferings will be mitigated." Nobody can say, "No, we are not suffering." That is insanity. Everyone is suffering. Prajāpati: This suffering comes from our sinful activities? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you protection from sinful reaction of your life because you are suffering for sinful reaction. Suffering means if you disobey the laws of the state, you suffer. That is sinful. Because you have disobeyed the laws of the state, you are suffering. Candanācārya: If one has difficulty becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is that suffering? Prabhupāda: No, what is the difficulty, first of all? Candanācārya: You once said if someone is not attracted to chanting, then he is being punished by Yamarāja. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you, if by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you can save your suffering, what is the difficulty, not to accept it? Everyone is suffering in this material world. And everyone is trying to get out of the suffering. That is also a fact. Prajāpati: They try to get out of suffering by committing more sins. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they do not know how to get out of the suffering. [break] Candanācārya: ...to tell people who think that they are not suffering that they are actually suffering. Prabhupāda: That means it is difficult to teach insane person. That's all. Therefore the best means is, without teaching, "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and takes little prasādam and go home." Then his insanity will be cured. Then he will be all right. This is our point. We don't sermonize in the beginning. We simply request, "All right, you are very good. Nobody is more intelligent than you. Yes. Please come here, sit down, chant, dance. It is very nice, and takes little prasādam. Go home." That is our program. Then we teach. When he comes to his little sanity, then he will be cured. [break] Prajāpati: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, the theologians call contrition. Means an actual thinking about how sinful we are, actually meditating on our sinful condition. Prabhupāda: Yes, simply meditating on sinful condition, that is also good. But what is the counteraction? That we must know. Just like one man is suffering from some disease. He knows that "I have infected this disease." So simply thinking, "Oh, I have been infected by this disease," that is not good. He must go to a physician to cure it. That is intelligence. Karandhara: Yes. Or it's like a criminal. If he commits a crime, it's nice that he laments, but he can't just lament. He has to start working positively. Prabhupāda: Yes, he must go to the state and offer, "Please kill me." Then state may consider. "I have committed this murder, so the law is: I must give my life. So I am prepared." Then immediately he will be excused. Yes. [break] Karandhara: ...a devotee came and told Prabhupāda that he committed some wrong doing, and he was very, very sorry, and he was crying and very sorry, and you said, "That's all right. That's nice. Now do something about it. Engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa's service." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That is the duty of the physician. If somebody comes, patient: "Sir, I am suffering like this." "All right, don't be sorry. Sit down. I will give you medicine." [break] Prajāpati: ...what these rascal philosophers do, psychologists and scientists, they say the things that are very sinful actually, that Kṛṣṇa says and the Bible and all of scriptures say are sinful, they say, "That's all right. You may do those things." Not only do they deny God's existence, but they say that which is sinful is actually good for you: "Yes. You must have intoxication, take illicit sex life," like that. *Prabhupāda: No good man will say like that. That is the difference between good man and bad man. The same example as I told, that one blind man is going this side, and another man says, "Yes, you are all right. Go this side." This is going on. Either he does not know, this rascal who says, "Yes, you can go this side," that he will fall down in the ocean and die... Both of them do not know. So one blind man, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. One blind man is giving direction to another blind man. This is going on. Therefore Vedic injunction is to take direction: "You must go to guru." That is in... Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Gurum eva, "Must go." Then he will get right direction. Otherwise misguided. [break] Candanācārya: ...there must have been very many gurus. Were there many gurus then? *Prajāpati: ...śaktyāveśa*-avatāra? Prabhupāda: Guru is the mercy incarnation of God, mercy incarnation. God is kind to everyone, so He is teaching everyone from within, but still, to make it still more explicit, He sends His mercy in the form of guru. *Prajāpati: The śaktyāveśa*-avatāra means Kṛṣṇa coming in a form of a living entity empowered by him for some special purpose. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Candanācārya: Guru is greater than śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. *Prabhupāda: No, guru is considered as Kṛṣṇa Himself. Guru*-rūpa kṛṣṇa hana avatāra. Just to teach the conditioned soul, guru comes himself, er, Kṛṣṇa comes Himself in the form of guru. Therefore we sing in the Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura's prayer, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ: "In every śāstra, guru is accepted as directly Kṛṣṇa." Sākṣāt. Sākṣāt means directly. Sākṣād-dharitvena: As Kṛṣṇa, is accepted in every śāstra, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **, it is said, uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **, and this statement is accepted by advanced devotees. It is not only statement, but it is accepted. But the next question is: "Does it mean that guru is Kṛṣṇa? Therefore no more Kṛṣṇa wanted?" No. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya: "Guru is exalted because he is very confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here it is clear. Not that he is respected as Kṛṣṇa, therefore he has become Kṛṣṇa. This is Māyāvāda: "He has become Kṛṣṇa." No. Kintu: "But don't think that there is no more Kṛṣṇa, finished. Guru is here." Just like the Māyāvādīs say, just like this rascal Guruji, that "I am Kṛṣṇa." Not that. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. He is the most confidential servant. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. This is clear explanation. Although he is respected as good as Kṛṣṇa, but he never says that "I am Kṛṣṇa." He says, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." And actually he is the most confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we distinguish in this line that sevya-bhagavān and sevaka-bhagavān: "worshipable God and worshiper God." You follow? God, but worshiper God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Person *Bhāgavatam*. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Both of them God, but one God is worshipable, and another God is worshiper. So for the disciple, both of them are worshipable because both of them are God. That is the distinction. Sevya*-bhagavān, sevaka-bhagavān. Prajāpati: Therefore, when we hear the words of guru, we are actually hearing Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. If you please guru, then Kṛṣṇa is pleased because he is saying the same thing. Just like we are... What we are doing? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. We are saying that "You just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." We are inventing nothing. Therefore I am guru. Because I am saying Kṛṣṇa's words, not my words, therefore I am guru. As soon as I say my words, then I am not guru. This is the significance. Rūpānuga: You are the only one, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who claims to be servant. The rest of them take Kṛṣṇa's position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are not guru. They are not guru. That is the difficulty, that one who is not guru, he is taking the place of guru. Therefore people are misguided. *Rūpānuga: One man who has written a book on these different so*-called spiritual movements has remarked that Your Divine Grace is the only one of all... The big difference between our movement and the others is that you claim to be servant, and the others claim to be God. Prabhupāda: He has written? Oh. Rūpānuga: It is in a book talking about different spiritual movements in this country. Prabhupāda: So he has appreciated this? Rūpānuga: He has made that remark. He has noted that difference. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Therefore I am unique. Yes. Then I can, become unique. Yes. I am not amongst the rascals. Rūpānuga: I tell the students... They ask me how they can distinguish between gurus. I tell them the real guru claims to be servant, and not God. I said only one guru says he is servant. That is Śrīla Prabhupāda. And they can understand that. Candanācārya: Sincere people will appreciate that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: In the early days of this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New York, devotees said they did not know how to treat Your Divine Grace. They did not know your exalted position. I think we are still very much offensive. Prabhupāda: No, I am servant. I have no exalted position. Servant. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sat down in a place where people were washing their feet. Yes. [break] ...a representative of Kṛṣṇa. I came to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa has sent so many representatives to help me. I consider like that. Without your help I could not do. So I wanted Kṛṣṇa's help, so Kṛṣṇa has sent you. Therefore you are representative of Kṛṣṇa. That is my conception. Prajāpati: We're just dogs, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No. Prajāpati: Barking at your feet, that's all. Prabhupāda: That is your humbleness. That is nice. Prajāpati: Not humbleness. That's fact. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Candanācārya: ...that there are some things that the guru says that the disciple does not accept. Prabhupāda: What is that? Candanācārya: He says that there are some things that the guru says that the disciple will not accept. Prabhupāda: Who says? Candanācārya: Jayādvaita told me that in the śāstra it says that. So when the guru says that the disciple is nice, he does not accept. Prabhupāda: (laughing) That is very good quality. Oh, Jayādvaita has written like that? Candanācārya: No, he was telling me that it was in one śāstra. *Prabhupāda: No, it is very intelligent. Yes. Just like guru does not accept, although he is worshiped like Kṛṣṇa, he never accepts that "I am Kṛṣṇa." That is our paramparā system. Śiṣya has to accept guru as Kṛṣṇa, but guru will never accept that he is Kṛṣṇa. This is our relationship. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Samasta-śāstraiḥ, all revealed scripture. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the unique quality of Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nowhere we can find these things. Candanācārya: One time, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said, "I will go to hell," but none of your disciples accepted that. Prajāpati: Actually, coming to this country, this is hell. *Prabhupāda: No, I am not in hell. I am with the devotees, so how can I say I am in hell? [break] Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, tāṅdera caraṇa sevi bhakta*-sane vās: "My duty is to serve my guru and live with the devotees." That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. "My mission is to serve my guru, but live with the devotees." Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...where pure devotee goes, that place is immediately purified as soon as he is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, because Kṛṣṇa helps. As soon as the pure devotee sings, Kṛṣṇa immediately comes there. So it becomes Vaikuṇṭha. Prajāpati: We are more fortunate than gopīs, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Walking with you on the beach is better than dancing rāsa dance in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) It is not like that, but we can say, wherever Kṛṣṇa topics are there, it is as good as Vaikuṇṭha or Vṛndāvana. [break] ...prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. By association, bodhayantaḥ parasparam. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. [break] ...enjoy and be satisfied in the association of devotees. [break] ...article on the subject of "Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist," and let us publish it. That article is very nice. If he writes such articles, the conclusion, if Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme economist, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme philosopher, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme chemist, Kṛṣṇa-everything, the conclusion is Supreme, Kṛṣṇa-then his activity is fulfilled. He becomes successful. The conclusion should be Kṛṣṇa. That's it. Whatever he may be. He may be a musician, he may be artist, he may be physicist, he may be chemist, he may be scientist-whatever he may be, if he writes article on the subject matter and concludes that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then preach, then he is successful. That's all. Just like you are theologian. You write theology and prove, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." Then your attempt is successful. [break] We are trying to understand the Supreme, so therefore, as soon as you come to the Supreme, you are successful. [break] ...uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. This is success. With your talent, you simply come to the conclusion that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. That's all. So our business is, because we are neither scientist nor musician, nothing of the sort, layman, we have simply said, "Kṛṣṇa Supreme." That's all. Never mind what I am. [break] ...janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. This is understanding Prajāpati: You are the supermost mahātmā, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prajāpati: Thank you so much. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya Prabhupāda. All glories to Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...need of God or not? Whether there is need of God? Prajāpati: The scientists say no, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Prajāpati: They say there's neither need, nor usefulness. Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. What is your opinion, scientist? There is need of God. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They may say that there is no necessity, but the fact is that there must be. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise they, we cannot conceive of how things are going on. Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Just like in the modern days, government, they have abolished monarchism, but still, why they elect a president? Why? Prajāpati: Must be leadership. Prabhupāda: Must be. That is the point. If you have abolished monarchy, then why you are electing another rascal to become a monarch? What is the answer? Why do you need it? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they need law and order. Prabhupāda: Yes, there must be. In our organization... Just like in each temple we elect a president. Then we get GBC. Then above all, I am. So that is needed. It is not conventional. It is needed. Therefore above everything, there must be God. So if these people, they say, "There is no need of God, there is no use for Him," that means they are all rascals. Karandhara: They themselves want to be that God. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You become God. But our point is there is need of God. Karandhara: Well, on that basis, on that logic they would say, "Yes, there is need, but we can fill that need." Prabhupāda: You fill, that's all right, but if you cannot... That is the question. (laughter) Our definition of God is that He maintains everyone. Can you maintain everyone? Karandhara: They are thinking they are maintaining. Prabhupāda: They again thinking. What is your present position? You are maintained. You cannot maintain. You are maintained by your boss. He gives you some salary and you fill up your bellies. You rascal, you want to be maintainer. You cannot maintain even a family of five heads. Therefore we say, all full of rascals. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... That is our śāstric conclusion. Anyone who is atheist, nondevotee, he is a rascal number one. Bās. It doesn't matter what post he holds. Our conclusion is that he is a rascal number one. That's all. He cannot have any good qualification. There is need of God. Who will maintain? Just like children. They require care of the parents. The people require the care of a head man, executive. This is essential. You cannot do without God. Who is maintaining that the moon is exactly in time rising, exactly in time setting? Devotee: Only God. Prabhupāda: Under whose order it is being done? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say, "By nature." Prabhupāda: What you mean, "By nature"? That is another rascaldom. Why this wood is not moving by nature unless somebody comes and moves? Prajāpati: They will say, "That is just the way things are." Prabhupāda: But it stops. Your body is moving. But when it stops, you cannot make just the way it is going on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also say, "That is also by nature." Prabhupāda: What is that nature? Nature means an instrument. Instrument, there must be one player. Nature is instrument. Just like this is an instrument. It is not recording by itself. When you push the button, then it works. You cannot say that "It is working by nature." Karandhara: They might say that by "nature" they mean it happens naturally. What's happening naturally, they mean it doesn't require anyone... Prabhupāda: No, what things are happening naturally? Your father begets you, therefore you talk. Naturally you have not come. If your father would not begotten you through your mother, how did you come? Naturally your mother does not become pregnant. What things happening naturally? Karandhara: No. By the father impregnating the mother, that is natural, naturally. *Prabhupāda: Why naturally? If father does not pregna... There are so many now "bachelor*-daddies." Nothing can be took natural. Nature is an instrument. Karandhara: Well, they say that some say that nothing was actually ever created, so there is no need for... Prabhupāda: Everything is created. That is rascaldom. He is speaking. He is created by his father, the rascal who is talking like that. You were created by your father. Karandhara: No, but essentially, he says, they are not created. Prabhupāda: Why not created? I see that your mother became pregnant and you were created and you are... Why you say... Your natural... Your mother did not become naturally pregnant. Everything is created. This table is created. You cannot say that it has come naturally. Karandhara: This form may be created or it exists at a certain state of time, but the energy is never created. *Prabhupāda: So that also we admit. That is another thing. But the... Therefore we have got two departments, the spiritual world and the material world. In the material world everything is created. In the spiritual world, not created. It is ever*-existing. And anything which is created, that is annihilated. Karandhara: The energy is not annihilated. Prabhupāda: No. That we also accept. But that energy belongs to whom? Karandhara: Well, they say that because it was never created, it doesn't have to be created. Prabhupāda: No, no. This material world is created. That you cannot say, "It is not created." Everything we see in our front, everything is created. Karandhara: Well, they say, "Nothing is created." Prabhupāda: No. Created, in this sense, it is manifested. Karandhara: In that sense. But that still isn't the creation of the energy itself. *Prabhupāda: That... What is that energy? That is spiritual energy. Therefore we divide material energy and spiritual energy. In the spiritual energy everything is manifested and non*-manifested. And the spiritual energy, everything is ever-existing. Sanātana, sanātana. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Sanātana means ever-existing. There is another nature, but that is not this nature. That we admit. Karandhara: But if this energy was never created, then what is the need for a creator? Prabhupāda: No. We admit the energy is not created. But energy comes from the energetic. Energy. Just like you may become angry. So that anger energy is there in you, but it is not manifested. So there are certain energies which sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. So this energy, material energy, is of God. This energy is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But there is another energy which is eternal. That is spiritual world. That is our... This is scientific study. [break] Prajāpati: They will say that such talk may be of use in a religious sphere, but it has no use ultimately in terms of science. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is useful because in scientific world also, you follow leader, Sir Isaac Newton, Professor Einstein. Why do you follow? There must be a leader. Karandhara: Well, they just use the leaders as springboards. They don't accept them as absolute authorities. Prabhupāda: No, it may be springboard, but you have to take their help. Because it is springboard, you cannot neglect. What do you think? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to take help. Prajāpati: They feel great accomplishment when they can disprove something that these leaders are proposing. Prabhupāda: No, if the leader is rascal, then it is accepted. But a leader required, that's a fact. But if you select a wrong leader, then you are misguided. But leader is required. Just like to get birth, there must be a father. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Leader is someone whose words can be accepted. A leader is someone, or a scientist, it doesn't matter, anybody, whose words are followed by... Prabhupāda: Yes, authority. Leader means authority. His instruction is followed, and actually it happens. That is leader. Svarūpa Dāmodara: [break] ...scientific community. It changes so often... Prabhupāda: Because they are not leader, perfect leader. With imperfect knowledge they become leader. Therefore we... Our process is to accept a leader who is perfect. That is our process. And the others, fools, they accept a leader who is not perfect. But either we or they, they must accept a leader. The only difference is that we accept the perfect leader and they accept the imperfect leader. Therefore they are cheated. Prajāpati: They will not accept the conception of perfection. They say, "We do not accept this term perfection." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are fools, therefore they are fooled. Unless there is conception of perfection, why do you change leader? Why do you make revolution? Prajāpati: The lesser of two evils. Karandhara: They accept the conception, but they don't accept the reality of it. *Prabhupāda: No. Reality, because they do not know. They have been always been misguided by rascals. Therefore they cannot think of that there can be perfection. This is called skepticism. Because everyone is faulty, therefore there is no knowledge. This is skeptism. But real knowledge is that as I see this man is intelligent that man, that man is intelligent than that man, therefore there is an ideal intelligent man which we could not find. And that is God. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Karandhara: Just like when they go and excavate a city under the ground, an old city, they see that so many things were built, and they say, "Oh, these people were very intelligent." Although they never saw the person, they saw the civilization in the... Prabhupāda: Yes. By symptoms, by symptoms they can understand. Karandhara: So they say, "Well, we cannot see God." But they could not see the people in those past days either. Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see the government, but when things are going nicely, you must accept, there is government. That is... When things are going on very nicely, regularly, the sun is rising regularly, the moon is rising regularly, the seasons are changing and the waves are flowing, everything, then you have to accept that there is government. And as we have got experience here in this material world... Government is impersonal, but that at the end there is a president. Similarly, the whole government, the complete government, may be impersonal in the beginning, but at the end there is a person, that Supreme Person, Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Yes. Paramātmā is representative of God. Just like the president has got so many representative governors, similarly, Paramātmā is the localized representative of God, and God is person, and the whole government is impersonal. This is the conception. When we say "government," you cannot localize that "Who is that person, government?" That is impersonal. But when we find governor, then localized persons. And then above them, all of them, when there is president, he is supreme person. This is our practical example. Similarly, nature is working impersonally, but there are officers. They are called demigods. And above them all there is the Supreme Lord. He is Bhagavān. And this idea wherefrom has come? The president, the governors, and the government. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. It has come from there. Because of the origin, the same thing is there. Prajāpati: They will say, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: They are rascals. They will say anything. (laughter) But this is the fact. When a madman speaks, he speaks all nonsense. But we are not madmen. We cannot accept their version. What they will say? Prajāpati: Even in a group of chickens, there is one who is the... Prabhupāda: Mother chicken. *Prajāpati: The head chicken. Or monkeys. There is also what's called pecking order. One is at the top, and then there's one at the end who gets the least, and all these gradations in*-between. In any group there is always like that. So they say simply the reason we have government with one man head is because that's the natural pecking order like chickens. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Why this natural order has come? It is needed. Karandhara: Well, they say chance. Chance in nature... Prabhupāda: There is no chance. That is rascaldom. There is no chance. There is no chance. Karandhara: By their theory of evolution, selectivity, that whatever develops, develops out of necessity, but not out of design. Prabhupāda: No, there is design. They do not know it. Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. It is said in the Bhaga... Adhyakṣeṇa means "under My superintendence." That means under some plan. What is the plan of this material world? The plan of material world is that some rascals, living entities, they wanted to enjoy. So God has given this plan, "All right, you enjoy." This is the plan. And not only enjoy. "You enjoy; *again come back." This is the plan. Pravṛtti*-nivṛtti. First of all he is given that "All right, you take all facilities of enjoyment." Therefore Veda is that "You enjoy like this, and after you have fulfilled your enjoyment, come back again." This is God mercy. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a testing ground of the spirit soul, a testing platform, where we can experience what we wanted, and after that, we can... *Prabhupāda: We wanted to enjoy. We wanted to enjoy. God has given full freedom to enjoy, but this enjoyment is not perfect. Therefore God comes. He says, "Now you have enjoyed, but you have not enjoyed. You have simply suffered. Therefore please come back again." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we don't experience, we may not know that we are suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got little freedom. Therefore this freedom is given, "All right..." So by freedom, sometimes we are becoming Lord Brahmā and sometimes the germ in the stool. This is going on. Otherwise, why there are so many different types of living entities? That freedom is acting under three modes: sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and tamo-guṇa. And when they are multiplied, three into three equals nine, nine into eighty-one; therefore 8,400,000 species. They experience everything. That is evolution, coming down, again going up, coming down again. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. So when they become exasperated, "No more." They want to become merging into the Supreme. When they are fatigued. After being karmī, then jñānī: "This is not good. What is actually our aim of life, let us search out." But because they make research in their teeny brain, they come to the conclusion, voidism and impersonalism, that "Make it zero, this botheration." That is also imperfect. So when they come to Bhagavān and engage himself in the service, then it is perfect, original. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want things by experimental knowledge, and when they fail it, they say it is nothing. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is voidism. First of all they try to enjoy. When they fail... The jackal in the orchard first of all tried to get the grapes, jumping, jumping, jumping. When he could not get, then he said, "Oh it is sour. Don't require..." (laughter) They will say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "This is all false. Let us go to Brahman." This is their philosophy. First of all they try as karmī, brmmmmmmm. (Prabhupāda makes loud car sound) (laughter) When all these brm brm brm, life after life, when he finds that there is nothing, "Oh, it is all false. Grapes are sour." Jackal jumping. There is need of God. You can write article. Prajāpati: Need of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is need, absolute need. Prajāpati: And need to trust in God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Exactly like that. A child needs parents and absolute surrender to parents. That is natural. Prajāpati: He needs parents to be born at all, he need parents that he can rely on. Prabhupāda: Yes, so that he may grow. That Upendra's wife and child. The child is so restless, not for a single moment. And the mother has to take care, "No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no." She requires a mother to take care. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the child is automatically taken care of by the parents. Prabhupāda: Yes, but he does not know. Child is foolish. He does not know. Similarly, everything is taken care of by God. He is supplying food, He is supplying seasons, He is supplying lights, everything I require. But we are so rascals, we are denying Him. You see? Karandhara: Well, they say there are discrepancies in that supply. Some people starve to death and freeze to death. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not discrepancy. Just like a mother, when the child is diseased, "Ah, don't take. You cannot take. You must starve." If he thinks it is discrepancy, that is his foolishness. That is foolishness. Karandhara: Well, just like if a big tornado comes and kills a thousand people... Prabhupāda: Yes, because on account of their sins. Because they do not know. Why government hangs one person? Is there government discrepancy? When government says, the judge says, "This man must be hanged," is it discrepancy? It is justice. Karandhara: Well, just like that one Indian chemist Svarūpa Dāmodara brought. He said that philosophy is killing India. People just sit by and watch each other die instead of trying to help each other. Prabhupāda: No, that he is rascal. No Indian is dying. We are going three times, four times India. Who is dying? Everyone is dying natural death. This is all propaganda, to make their position secure. That's all. I have never seen anyone dying for starvation. I have pointed out so many times that fifty years ago this class of men lying on the footpath... Now the foodgrains has risen price fifty times. Still he is living. Still he is living. But he has to live in that condition. Although he must have increased his income, otherwise how he is purchasing foodstuff, fifty times? But in spite of his increasing income, he must live like that. Apart from India. Why, in your country or in Europe, so many hippies are lying? Why? They have no want. Karandhara: But not as many. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have not seen Amsterdam. Full, one big park, hundreds and thousands hippies are lying on the ground. Hundreds and thousands. You have been in Amsterdam? I have seen it personally. Karandhara: Yeah. But not like India where there is millions of people... Prabhupāda: No, no, India you will not find that in the park hundreds and thousands are lying. You never find. Karandhara: Well, you'll find them living in sewer pipes. Prabhupāda: Anyway, our proposition is that one class of men must lie down like that. Rūpānuga: That is their business. Prabhupāda: That is their business. They must. Karandhara: Just like there they build big buildings for them and let them... Prabhupāda: But they do not go. In Bombay also, municipality has constructed big buildings, but they do not go. They hire it, yes, they get, to some gentleman. They get some fifty rupees and "All right, you take." And he lives in a hut. Yes. This is practical. They don't like. Just like a worm in the stool. You take it away. He will again, again go. (laughter) Again go there. You are very philanthropist: "Oh, my dear friend, why you are in the stool? Come on, here." "No, no, sir, I will go there again." How can you check it? Nature's law. Karandhara: Well, they say it can be checked by time and education. Prabhupāda: Oh, that time, you wait for time. By that time you will die. Karandhara: Well, just like a hundred years ago in the United States... Prabhupāda: No. These discrepancies will go on because this whole material world is being conducted by three qualities. You will have three qualitative persons. Karandhara: Well, they think they are making progress... Prabhupāda: That they are making progress everyone knows, what kind of progress they are making. Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a great philosopher or preacher among the Jewish people whose position is that "If there is God and He let so many Jews be killed by Hitler, ten million Jews, and God could have stopped it and He didn't, then I don't care for that God." They say like that. Prabhupāda: So their God, Jesus Christ God, he could not even protect himself also. The reply should be, Christian, if Jesus Christ is God, then why he could not protect himself? Karandhara: Well, the Jews say Jesus Christ wasn't God. Prabhupāda: Well, but somebody said. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like the concept that if God is all*-merciful, why He is so impartial, somebody making happy, somebody making suffering? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is mercifulness. Just like when doctor says, "You don't take anything today. You fast," that is mercy. That is mercy. It is good for him. By starving, he will be cured. That is mercy. And according to Manu*-saṁhitā, when a man is hanged, that is mercy. If he is hanged... He has committed murder. He should be hanged so all his sinful reaction finished. Otherwise next birth, he has to suffer. He has to be killed by somebody else. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the tendency is that the sufferer wants to complain. Prabhupāda: No, that they will complain. Just like when a man is ordered to be hanged, he will complain, "Just see the police, judge. He has ordered me to be hanged." That complaint will go on. Just like a child. When the doctor says, "Don't eat anything." He will complain. He will cry, "Why doctor says like that?" But it has to be done. Karandhara: Well, then they'll say, "Well, if you see somebody suffering, then why do anything about it, if it just what they..." Prabhupāda: Yes, we are doing everything to stop his suffering. Karandhara: They will say, "Why? If that's what they deserve, why try to stop it?" Prabhupāda: No, because he has come here to suffer. You cannot expect in the prison life a very comfortable life. You must suffer. But if somebody goes there, that "Don't commit stealing anymore. Come out and don't come here again," so that is required. Rūpānuga: Just because a man goes in the prisonhouse doesn't mean his thieving is cured. He will come out a thief unless he is actually rectified. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Otherwise again he will commit the same thing and again he will come. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Therefore he requires instruction, good instruction. Sometimes government invites. We were invited that Ahmedabad jail. You remember? Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, there was big meeting of the prisoners. Kīrtana, everything, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So by lacking the understanding, they say that God is not merciful. The sufferers. People, who are suffering, but by not knowing that it is the mercy of the Lord, we complain that God is not merciful. But he is impartial. Prabhupāda: No, God is merciful, but this fool does not know because he is ignorant. The same thing, mother says. One child, she is feeding very sumptuously. Other one, "Oh, don't take it. You go away." Does it mean the mother is merciful to one child and not to the other? The child does not know it, he cries, "Why shall I not...? Why I shall not eat? Why I shall not eat?" So these foolish questions will be stopped as soon as one becomes God conscious. Karandhara: But unless they understand the difference between spirit and matter, they can't accept this logic. Prabhupāda: Well, foolish men cannot accept any logic. Their logic is stick. "If you don't accept, I shall kick on your face. Accept it." That is the... That is wanted. Karandhara: Like the example when Hitler killed the Jews. They will say, "Well, what should we do, just let Hitler go on killing the Jews because the Jews were sinful? Or should we try and stop Hitler?" *Prabhupāda: Well, Hitler was imperfect and everything was imperfect. That you cannot compare Hitler's action with God's action. God is all*-perfect. That is first proposition. God is all-perfect. Karandhara: That may be accepted in retrospection, but when it is happening, they don't accept that. Prabhupāda: No, that is their ignorance, foolishness. Therefore a devotee will not say like that. A devotee will say, tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ: [SB 10.14.8] "My dear Lord, I am suffering. It is due to my past mischievous activities, but you are rescuing me by giving little punishment. I would have been punished more, but you have given little punishment. Thank you very much." This is devotion. Karandhara: Well, what if someone came here now to attack us, should I just sit there and watch him and say that... Prabhupāda: No. Who said? You must fight. Karandhara: Well, why? If we are attacked, then we must deserve it. Prabhupāda: No, it may be that somebody is attacking even you do not deserve. So therefore you have got intelligence. You have got hands. You must try to protect. Just like one man is destined to be hanged, but still, he appoints a lawyer and tries to save him. He knows that "I have committed murder, I must be hanged." Rūpānuga: And then God sanctions the judge. The judge can kill. Karandhara: Well, that is why they say we must work to help poor people and starving people. Prabhupāda: Why poor people? You starve. You are already yourself a poor people. How you can help them? Karandhara: No, they say if we find poor and starving people, we must go and feed them. Prabhupāda: So you feed them. But we also feed them. But we feed them with Kṛṣṇa prasādam. That is the difference. You do this. That will be actually beneficial. By distributing Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, you will be benefited, they will be benefited. Prajāpati: If we see a group of demons fighting, killing each other, should devotees go and try to stop them from killing each other? Prabhupāda: First of all you must know whether they are demons. But demons fight. Gentlemen do not fight. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Let them fight. Prabhupāda: Let them fight. (laughing) Svarūpa Dāmodara: The devotees should wish that "O my Lord, please..." *Prabhupāda: Devotees must pray that "This great demon Hiraṇyakaśipu may be killed by You, my Lord." Therefore He comes. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja passively... [break] ...father was being killed. He could have stopped it, but he did not. He did not. If Prahlāda Mahārāja would have requested, immediately it would have been stopped, but he did not. He said, rather, in his prayer, that "Nobody is sorry when a serpent or a scorpion is killed." He said like that. So he said, "My father was just like a serpent and scorpion. Now he is killed. So now You become pacified. No more need of becoming angry." Modeta sādhur api. Actually, I have seen. There was a snake in our Māyāpura temple. So Guru Mahārāja was standing on the..., while some devotees were waiting. "Yes, kill it." So at that time I could not understand that "Such a saintly person why he is ordering to kill a snake?" Then when I found in Bhāgavata, modeta sādhur api vṛścika*-sarpa-hatyā: [SB 7.9.14] "A saintly person also becomes engladdened when a snake is killed." Because it is very harmful. He said that "He will do so many harmful activities. Better kill him." Because his business is to create harm. That's all. Rūpānuga: A snake attacks without discrimination. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Rūpānuga: He is mean. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply if you are passing by... Just like dog. Without any fault, bark, "Wowf! Wowf! Wowf! Worf!" This is the animal nature. Without any fault, I am passing, I am not entering his gate. Still, the dog will bark. Similarly, the snake... You simply pass through. He will feel pleasure, biting you. That is snake's business. Therefore nobody is merciful upon snake. Karandhara: Because of his poison. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] There was a snake. He was living under my bed. So you know katiya? (?) The rope, katiya? So I saw something is hanging like snake tail. So I called my servant, "There must be some snake. Some tail is hanging." So the servant, they called all their friends. They came with stick, about a dozen. And as soon as the mattress was taken, there was snake. So I told them, "Don't kill it. No, no." "Nei saheb, yei nei hatya." (?) Ah, immediately killed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once there was a big cobra, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in home in Manipura, in our kitchen. He was just coiling and just sitting there, but he was very mild, because he was about to skin his skin. By that time, he doesn't bite anything, very tame. Prabhupāda: No, sometimes the serpents are tamed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. But still, they are dangerous. That is said by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. The serpent is so dangerous. That, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. The serpent is so dangerous that even one imagines there is a serpent, he is, becomes afraid. You see? When Mahārāja Pratāparudra wanted to see Him and Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and others requested, that "He is a devotee." "But I know that he is a devotee, but because he is king, therefore I cannot see him." He gave this encou..., "The serpent even by imagination is also fearful." He said like that. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, manina bhujitaḥ sarpa kim asau na bhayaṁkaraḥ. (?) A serpent... You know, sometimes they have got jewel. "So a serpent with jewel, does it mean that he is not fearful?" Even with jewel he is fearful. Therefore, the demon, even with high educational qualification, he is rascal. He is rascal, fearful. Prajāpati: That high education is just like the jewel. Prabhupāda: Yes. But still fearful. Prajāpati: But Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he had a serpent in his cave that he was not so much fearful of. Prabhupāda: No, I said that, that sometimes, serpents are tame, friendly, everything, with jewel. But still they are fearful. Still, they are fearful. They cannot be trusted. A demon may be your friend, but you cannot trust him. Manina bhujitaḥ sarpa kim asau na bhayaṁkaraḥ. (?) Just like (laughing) your sky in the western world. However clear it may be, you cannot trust. At any moment there will be cloud. Is that all right? Devotee: Especially in London. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am therefore speaking, western world. So what is the London news, Jaya Hari? [break] Prajāpati: ...in what sense is the First Canto His lotus feet? *Prabhupāda: Lotus feet because we worship Kṛṣṇa by worshiping the lotus feet first. We offer flower to the lotus feet. So one must go from First Canto to Second Canto, Third Canto, gradually make progress, not all of a sudden want to see how Kṛṣṇa is smiling. You see? That you cannot understand. So the sahajiyās, they go, immediately jump to the Kṛṣṇa's rāsa*-līlā, without worshiping gradually. Therefore they misunderstand. [break] Just to understand Kṛṣṇa. Prajāpati: But Kṛṣṇa's disappearance, about having a māyā body that He left behind. A māyā body. Is that anything to do with Māyāvādī? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Māyāvādī means those who are in māyā, those who are thinking Kṛṣṇa as one of the human beings, for them, to delude them, He left the body. But actually He departed in His own body. There is no question of... Here is another... But just like this is also, this material world... This is also Kṛṣṇa's body. But this is interesting to the Māyāvādīs, the so*-called scientists, so-called philosophers. But it is not interesting to the devotees. They are thinking, "This is all." Is not that? The scientists, the philosophers, they are thinking, "This is all. There is nothing beyond this." This is illusion. This is only reflection of the reality. Viśvareta: Scientists, they have their mental process, but what is our process to understand this knowledge? *Prabhupāda: Ascending. Ah, descending, not ascending. We have to take knowledge from superior. We should not try ourself to know. That will be imperfect. Avaroha*-patha. Just like we're receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. We are not researching. Those who are researching, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They understand Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, maybe little learned. That's all. The Dr. Frog's calculation of Atlantic Ocean. That's all. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. [break] ...automatically. You see? But he does not know that behind this automation there is brain. He'll see, "Oh, how nice." That's all. Similarly, child-like scientist, they will say, "Everything is going on automatically." [break] ...but there is brain behind that. Karandhara: But for the child, the presents at Christmas do appear automatically by the grace of the parents. So the fruits appear automatically by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: The main thing is that their leaders have no qualifications. And our leader has all qualifications. Our leader has all qualifications. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, because they are perfect. *Prajāpati: Therefore all*-auspiciousness appears by your presence, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, but why they, you accept it? You have got independence also. Acceptance and rejection. Yaśomatīnandana: English car, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Rolls Royce. Not only English, you could not. (laughter) You could not, but he has done. Sometimes Śyāmasundara is envious of Karandhara. Now, just see what is the difference. He has taken twenty thousand dollars. He cannot pay. Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- December 17, 1973, Los Angeles Prajāpati: ...need for God. Prabhupāda: Need for God, yes. Scientist, you are also writing? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes. Prabhupāda: There is need. [break] ...not falling down. Why the law of gravitation is violated? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the cells are alive when the... Prabhupāda: They say. They have got this cell theory. Therefore under condition, this law of gravitation works. It is not unconditional. Then the question is who will make the condition? Karandhara: Well, they say that the green apple's not falling is just a case of an opposite factor being stronger than the pull of gravity. The strength of the twig holding the apple on is stronger than the pull of gravity. Prabhupāda: That I say, that the law of gravitation acts under certain conditions. This is also conditional. Karandhara: Well, the law of gravitation is always working, the energy is always there. It is just not strong enough to pull the apple down. Prabhupāda: Working under condition. Working under condition. Just like you take a little needle, it will go immediately down the water, and you give a big log, it will not go. The weight of the needle and the weight of the big log, much different. Still, the needle will go; the gravitation will work. But to the log it will not work. *Karandhara: Well, there is a counter*-law called buoyancy. *Prabhupāda: So anyway, there are so many laws. If the laws are fulfilled, then your so*-called gravitation works. So who made the laws? That is the point. Under certain law, condition, it will not act, and under certain condition it will act. So who made the condition? That is the question. You cannot make finalize the laws of gravitation. It is also under condition. Who makes this condition? That is the point. [break] ...Lord Rāmacandra constructed the bridge with stone on the ocean, it began to float. So He is the condition-maker. He made the condition. He changed the condition, "Now these stones will float." That's all. Therefore God is supreme. [break] Law of gravitation did not work when Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill. [break] So that is nice. The scientific discoveries act under relative condition. That is not absolute, final. If such and such conditions are there, then the so-called scientific laws will act. Otherwise it will not act. [break] ...see. But you cannot see even so many things. Now you cannot see there, what is there. So what is that seeing power? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's limited. Prabhupāda: Therefore everything is limited. Under condition you can see. So what is your seeing? Imperfect seeing. If the sun rises, then you can see. That also not correctly. So what is the value of your seeing. You say, "We want to see God." And what is the value of your seeing? Karandhara: Well, they think they can make machines. Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect. Karandhara: They have one machine they have they could see right now... Infrared telescopes. Prabhupāda: No, that machine is imperfect. That is also imperfect. That machine is made by imperfect senses; so it is imperfect. Karandhara: Imperfect, but they think it is becoming more perfect. Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. They are becoming more perfect means they are imperfect. Becoming more perfect means their always position is imperfect. That very word means that, that you are perpetually imperfect. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is better than doing something than doing nothing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That dog also doing, jumping, always. "Yes, we get... Bow! Bow! Bow! Ra, ra, ra, ra!" That kind of... Active business. What is called? Active foolishness. They remain foolish, but still, they are active. That means they are simply creating dangerous position. That's all. Jagataḥ ahitāḥ. It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā. These demons, their progress means only for the mischief of the world. That's all. That is demonic progress. Kṣayāya jagato... For the destruction of the world and for mischievous condition of the world, their progress. Is it not? Kṣayāya jagataḥ ahitāḥ. Kṣayāya means "for destruction and for mischievous condition." Therefore, despite all advancement of so-called scientific knowledge, the world becoming more and more in dangerous and destructive condition. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...gives the medicine. [break] Prajāpati: Today the only time they use the word God is when they are swearing and they are calling on God to damn someone else. Why is such language there? Why are they doing like that? Prabhupāda: No. Why ordinary men? Even those who are going to church, they are also praying God, "God, give us our daily bread." These rascals, they have made God as agent for their sense gratification. This is their philosophy. Even from the priest down to the rogues, they have made God as the agent of their sense gratification. That is materialism." God must supply whatever I want. That is God. Otherwise I don't care for God." This is their philosophy. Prajāpati: But sometimes they might hit their thumb with a hammer or something and they will start swearing, calling on God's name, but in a very bad way. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even I wanted to become a doctor. When I started... Prabhupāda: Oh, whatever you want to become, the basic principle is sense gratification. Either you become scientist or doctor or engineer, the main thing is "Bring money." That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some doctors think that they are doing humanitarian work. Prabhupāda: Yes, so long he will pay. That's all. "Hospital." In your country especially. "Hospital" means "to receive." But there also you pay, then it is hospital. Otherwise "Get out." It is no longer hospital. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I find doctors are most rascals here. They are greatest demons. Prabhupāda: Why not the scientists? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think scientists are better than doctors. Prabhupāda: Better rascals. (laughter) Scientists are better rascals. (laughing) Karandhara: Well, doctors are simply out for money. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it is terrible. They don't think about anything else. They just think about money. Prabhupāda: They have been taught like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If the patient doesn't bring money, he won't give injection. Prabhupāda: So the lawyers and everyone. Especially in your country, this country, because they require money, so they must have money some way or other. That is the prime principle. They require money. That's all. Karandhara: They charge outrageous fees, $60 an hour, $70 an hour, $5,000 for a little operation. Some doctors, they simply try to make operations so they can get rich. Whenever you come to see them, they say, "You need an operation." Prabhupāda: Yes. Locana: And they keep their telephone numbers secret so that on Sunday their patients may not disturb their sense gratification with their medical difficulties. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a very big business here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, medical profession. They have this American Medical Association. They control the whole business. Even government cannot interfere. So they choose students, and they keep the supply so low that the demand is always high. That is why the price always increases. It's terrible. Karandhara: To stay in a hospital now costs about $150 a day. Prabhupāda: That is a sort of punishment of sinful activities. When you fall sick, it is due to sinful activity. So you are punished. Karandhara: It's a very high price. Rūpānuga: Pay fine. Prabhupāda: Yes. The more dangerous is the disease, you have to pay more. [break] Karandhara: ...very mercenary, hospitals... Prabhupāda: Everywhere mercenary. Lawyers... Karandhara: The hospital across the street from our temple, if you go there with an emergency, they say, "First give us money. No money, go away." No matter how serious the injury. "First give us money." Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no human quality, these doctors. Karandhara: We have brought devotees there sometimes with serious wounds or injuries, and they just say, "First you give us money or else go away. We don't care." Prabhupāda: Everywhere. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think the Indian government has set up one oil factory now. I saw in the news, that in Mathurā now, the government of India has set up one oil refinery. There will be a factory there. Prabhupāda: In Mathurā? Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Mathurā, yes. They have laid the foundation, Indira Gandhi. I think a few months ago I saw in the paper. So there will be one refinery there. So it will be industrial town now. Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to spoil the spiritual value of Mathurā, Vṛndāvana. They are not giving any more sanction for temples. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday Rūpānuga Mahārāja was telling me that about the calculation of time through the atom. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: Calculation of time from the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He is talking about *Bhāgavatam*. By the light passing over the atom, you can calculate the time, the sunlight passing over the atomic particles. Prabhupāda: So? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How is it done? Prabhupāda: I have written that? Rūpānuga: Yes, you have written, *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: What is that? Rūpānuga: Third Canto. How the sunlight, you can tell time, that the atom is a subtle form of time, that you can tell time as light passes over the surface of an atom. And the experiment is that you look for atoms in a screen. When the sun comes through the screen, you can see in the sunlight hexatoms or six atoms with your naked eye. That experiment is given in *Bhāgavatam*. It is very wonderful. Vedic science. We should present that as the real actual science, real atomic science. Prabhupāda: No, in *Bhāgavatam* there is regular calculation, what is the distance from one planet to another. Everything is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The calculation is given. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every planet is described, what is the constitution, what are the forms of the living entities there. Everything is there. Bhāgavata never says that "These, all the other planets are vacant. Only this planet is full of living entities." Bhāgavata is not so rascal. These rascals may say. Their theory is that "All other planets, they are vacant. Only this planet is filled with..." This rascal theory is not in the Bhāgavata. We see that there is living entity in the water. There is living entity within the sand. How you can say there is no living entity in other planets? Rūpānuga: They say that "Life as we know it here does not exist." Human life. *Prabhupāda: No, how you can say so? The condition is the same. Every planet is made of earth, water, air, fire, the five elements. So if under these condition there are living entities in this planet, why not in that condition living entities in other planets? That is their ignorance. That is their bluff. The different condition of the planets is that some planet is fiery, some planet is gaseous, some planet is watery. That may be, but after all, they are made of these five elements. And each element, we find there is living entity. So it may be mixture or pure, there must be living entities. And in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said sarva-ga. Even in the fire there is living entities. And why not? If living entities can stay in water, why not in fire? Rūpānuga: On the sun planet. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are also living entities. They are very glowing, fiery. Therefore the whole sun planet is glowing. Rūpānuga: By their bodily light. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is only one sun planet, and in Vaikuṇṭha all the planets are like sun. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated, na tad bhāsayate sūryo na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ [Bg. 15.6]. There is no necessity of electricity or moonlight or sunlight. Here it is necessity because here only glowing planet is the sun. But in the Vaikuṇṭha, each and every planet is glowing. Therefore there is no need of sun. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na tad bhāsayate sūryaḥ. There is no necessity of illumination of sun, moon or electricity. Prajāpati: Spirit soul, it is also luminous like that? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is luminous, how it is keeping your body warm? As soon as it goes away, immediately cold. Immediately cold. Finished, all temperature finished. These are the evidences. Rūpānuga: It is said that the soul glows with a light brighter than a thousand suns. In the *Vedas*. Yes? Prabhupāda: I do not remember. Maybe. [break] The soul is more valuable than the sun, because the sun is, after all, a matter, and the soul is spirit. Therefore the vast difference of value. You cannot revive the life of a dead body by thousands of suns' heat. It is not possible. It can burn, but it cannot give light. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like if we compare the velocity of light and the velocity of soul, it is... Prabhupāda: Far, far greater. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, far different. It can be immediately on the... Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9], "Immediately comes to Me." So just see the velocity. Tyaktvā deham. As soon as he gives up this body, immediately goes to Kṛṣṇa. So see... Where is Kṛṣṇa? You cannot estimate even this material world. And then you enter the spiritual world. And then you go to the highest planet of the spiritual world, Goloka Vṛndāvana. So you cannot calculate how far it is, neither by driving your aeroplane of mind and vāyu, you can reach there. But the soul is so powerful that immediately goes there. Just like mind. You are here, many thousand miles away, 25,000 miles away in somewhere, immediately goes, mind goes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just at will. Prabhupāda: At will. So the soul is still finer. Intelligence is finer than the mind. And soul is finer than the intelligence. So just imagine what is the velocity. Soul is so powerful. By yogi, simply giving up this material body, they can capture the sun rays and immediately go to the sun planet. Beams of the sun. This is science. Where is that science? Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are thoughts made of matter or spirit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts actually made by spirit, but it is covered by matter. Therefore in the material condition you can think only of matter. Just like this body is covered by so many material things, but actually, the spirit is covered. So the soul being spirit, so long it is covered by matter, it cannot act spiritually. It is obstructed. Not obstructed. Covered. It cannot be obstructed. If you like, you can get out of the covering of the matter. So matter cannot obstruct. But it is the will of the soul. Therefore it is called taṭastha, marginal. Prajāpati: When we feel pain or discomfort, that is covering also? *Prabhupāda: That is to the material. Soul has no pain. It is the material covering. Just like this chilliness. We are affected by the body, material body, not the soul. Mātrā*-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This pleasure and pain is due to the material covering. Otherwise soul is unaffected. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ: "This puruṣa, the soul, is unaffected by any material condition." The same example as I give, that you have a good car. You are identifying yourself. But you are not the car. You are affected if the car is smashed, because you have got absorption in the car that "This is my car." The other man is not affected. Similarly, due to our absorption, ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8], "It is my, it is mine," we are suffering. Rūpānuga: The False ego. Prabhupāda: False ego. Rūpānuga: Very subtle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: This process of identification with the body. So we identify with the body... Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ mameti janasya moho 'yam [SB 5.5.8]. This is illusion. He is not that, but he is thinking, "I am this." That is animalism. The animal is always thinking that "I am this body." Girirāja: So if somebody no longer identifies with the body, what is his perception of a painful condition? Prabhupāda: He tolerates. He knows. Just like the same example. You are not the car . If your car is smashed, although you feel sorry, but you know that "I am not a car." That is the position. Rūpānuga: So the pain is experienced by the consciousness that is spread all over the body? Prabhupāda: That is false. That is called illusion. You are not painful, but you are thinking that "I am painful." But that is illusion. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are conditioned. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why we experience from very, our childhood that I feel pain when somebody hits me. *Prabhupāda: No. Just like we all know that "I am not this body." But why you are covering the body? So long you are in material condition, you have to do that. The same example. Although you are not the motorcar, but if there is some accident, you have to take care of it, because you have to work on it. Therefore this body, although I am not this body, I have to work in this material world with this body. That is the vehicle. You cannot neglect it, neither you become identified. This is knowledge. Yuktāhāra*-vihāraś ca. That is recommended, yuktāhāra, "as much as necessity." But these people, they are taking the body as everything. They have no information of the soul. Rūpānuga: They cannot tolerate it. Like the prisoner cannot tolerate being in the prison house without knowledge. They cannot get along. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So our consciousness is affected by our conditioning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the perfect consciousness. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like the yogis. They live in the Himalayas without any cloth. They take bath in ice water. They don't feel anything. Prabhupāda: No. Prajāpati: But is it true, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that sometimes the spiritual master has to suffer if his disciples act in sinful ways? *Prabhupāda: The same way. Bodily suffering. Infection. The spiritual master accepts the all infection. So as the infection acts on the body, so there is little suffering. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Kṛṣṇa says, "All the sinful reaction of the surrendered soul..." So spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. So he has also to accept. [break] ...the injunction is one should not accept many disciples. But for preaching work we have to do that. [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to finish my thesis, so I won't be able to come every day in the morning. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do your duty. [break] Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm so sorry that you have to suffer cause we're such rascals. Prabhupāda: No, no. I'll not suffer. Karandhara: Then don't be rascals. Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] (in the car:) *Rūpānuga: : ...comes in contact with the so*-called matter, is that false ego? Prabhupāda: No, consciousness is spread all over the body. And due to the false ego... [break] Rūpānuga: How big is the material atom? Prabhupāda: There is measurement. Rūpānuga: Oh, in *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: But it is said that unless six atoms are joined together, you cannot see. (end) Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles *Prajāpati: ...big gold letters over the whole front of the building where they were having inauguration of vice*-president, "In God we Trust," big letters. So they are advertising for us already. For Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Who is the vice*-president? Devotees: Gerald Ford. Prabhupāda: Belonging to the Ford family? Devotee: Not the people that make the cars, no. Different Ford. Prajāpati: If we were there and we could make one speech in front of that assembled Congress and Senate, the main government of the United States, what were the main points we would stress? Prabhupāda: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; *neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight. Then there will be peace in the world. The class of men who do not believe in God, they should be punished, because they are creating all the troubles. A man who trusts in God, he is the ideal man. He will never create any trouble. Therefore this science should be learned very scientifically. And we are prepared. And you also must be able to teach them. Then it will be successful." (Aside:) You leave little aloof. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. "Anyone who does not know what is God and does not know how to trust in God, he is animal. So how you can expect a human civilization composed of some animals? That you have to learn from us. If you are serious. If you simply make it a slogan, but you remain same as the man who does not know what is God, then what is the meaning of this slogan? That will not help you." Just like sometimes they put the signboard, "Goodman and Company," businessmen. The signboard is "Goodman," but he is cheating simply, from business point of view. That kind of signboard will not help you. If you actually believe in God, then try to understand what is God. Otherwise how you can believe? If you do not know the person in whom you have to trust, how you can trust Him? Is it clear or not? I say, "Trust in Him," but if I do not know that man, how I can trust? You must explain that "This man is in this way trustworthy." Otherwise what is the meaning of my trust? This science should be understood, what is God and what is trust. That you discuss thoroughly, threadbare. Otherwise how you will be able to preach? Ask all questions. I will answer. But you must be thoroughly conversant that there is need of God and everyone must trust in God. This is the standard of civilization. God is there. Without God, there cannot be anything existing. This is first point. And we must trust in God. Those who are speaking, "In God we trust," at least they believe that there is God. Now, where is God, how He is living, what He is doing, this must be known. Just like in your America, there is need of a president. But those who are advanced in American history, they must know what is that president, what is his position, what is the constitution. That is, means perfect knowledge must be there about God, and perfect knowledge how to trust Him. This is now required. Otherwise the world is going to... Not that theologicians' speculation on God. First thing is, there is God. Now, how people can be convinced that there is God? Tell me. Speak. Girirāja: Well, all of these different varieties of plants, animals, planetary systems, the sun rising, there has to be some controller, some brain who has made this order. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Devotee: They can become convinced simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the background. But you have to explain. Girirāja: Their speaking power, that they are making their political speeches, that is also given by God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: At any moment it can be taken away. So they are under control. But they will raise the point that "We have our concept of God and you have your concept of God." Prabhupāda: No. God cannot be "your God" or "my God." God is one. You cannot say that. Just like you cannot say in the United States that "your concept of president, my concept of president." President is one. If you manufacture your concept of president, that means you do not know what is president. President of United States, he has got a status, constitution, that "This is the president." So you must know that. You cannot say, "I have my concept of president." That you cannot say. Can you say that? Girirāja: No. Prabhupāda: Then? The president is one. Either you don't know or I don't know. So we must know what is that president. This is first point, what is God. Devotee: By argument you can convince a skeptic of the possibility of the existence of God, but the reality of Godhead can only be really realized... I mean has to be experienced or realized, does it not? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a point of realization. But the first preamble is that there must be God, the Supreme Being. In the dictionary it is stated, Supreme Being. So as in every department, everywhere, there is a supreme controller. Same example. The president is the supreme controller of this state. United States. In another state, in India also, the president is the supreme controller. Similarly, taking the whole universe or many such millions of universes taken together, there must be a Supreme Being. Otherwise how things are going on, nicely? [break] This is our first point. Devotee: The scientists say that everything had its origin with a big bang. All of a sudden one day there was a big bang and everything came into being. Prabhupāda: What is that big bang. You do not know. It is your suggestion. Big bang means big brain or what? Big bang? What is that, a big bang? Devotee: Noise. Prabhupāda: Hm? (aside:) Don't come near. Noise? Big bang, what is that big bang? Devotee: The scientists say that in the beginning the universe wasn't created, and then all of a sudden there was a big explosion and everything just kind of happened. Everything just came into being. Prabhupāda: But how all of a sudden there can be explosion? What is this nonsense proposition? As soon as there is question of explosion, before the explosion takes place, there must be some arrangement. The time bomb explosion. So the bomb is prepared by something, some bomb is kept by somebody, and after some time it explodes. So how all of a sudden? Where does he get this idea? Just like if there is bomb explosion here, a child may think, "All of a sudden there is a bomb explosion," but a sane man will not think that. There will be inquiry, "Who kept this bomb? Who brought this bomb?" That is sanity. "And all of a sudden explosion," this is all rascal proposal. Therefore the people have become so rascal, guided by these rascals, "All of a sudden, by chance," and they accept them as scientist... This is the drawback of the present civilization. Because they are śūdras, like animals, they have got no brain to answer that "How all of a sudden there can be explosion." They have no brain even to ask. Rather, they are giving Nobel Prize. This rascal is speaking like a rascal, still, he should get Nobel Prize. That is the defect. The people at the present moment, they are all rascals. Just like animals. And yes, actually they are animals. Just like animals are eating, sleeping, mating, and eating meat. The other one animal is eating another animal. That's all. No discretion, nothing. This is a civilization of animals, polished animals. Their consciousness has become animalistic. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like children. They are animals, just like animals. They have no fixed program. Whatever they like, they are doing. Whatever they like, they are speaking. Simply they are interested in eating. So at the present moment, because they have lost all their power of reasoning and understanding, they are all animals. "All of a sudden there is an explosion." How explosion can take place like that? Any sane human being will ask that "How is that?" Same example: If there is some explosion in the park, a rascal will say, "All of a sudden there is explosion." But the government, police department, immediately inquire, "How this bomb came? Wherefrom? Who placed it?" That is humanity. That is human reasoning. "And all of a sudden there is explosion," you have to accept that. You accept that? Devotee: I don't accept it. *Prabhupāda: Then? No sane man will accept. The so*-called scientists, begin, all beginning is like that. "There were chemicals, these chemicals." Now wherefrom these chemicals came? Who placed these chemicals? They do not ask. Because they are fools, the other fools bluff them and they accept it. But we are not going to accept. We shall inquire. And that is human intelligence. Girirāja: But they may say "Where did God come from?" Prabhupāda: No, no, God, not "come from." By experience you are speaking that things are... Just like the explosion. Explosion was there because God was there. Therefore God is there. The explosion cannot take place by chance, all of a sudden. There was somebody, some brain, and that brain is God. Because you say all of a sudden there was explosion, therefore that is the proof of existence of God. Is it clear or not? Girirāja: Yes. Devotee: Something can't come from nothing. Prabhupāda: No. We have no such experience. How we accept this nonsense statement? We have no such experience. I can accept something that is going on. Can you show me? So we show. You study with your experience. Where is your experience that something comes all of a sudden? There is no such thing. So how can I accept your statement? Because you say, "There was explosion," that means there is God. That means there is God. So what is your argument? You say that "Why you bring God?" I bring God because you say, "There was explosion." Girirāja: No, you're saying that "Something cannot come from nothing." Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: So therefore this explosion came from God. But then where did God come from? Prabhupāda: That is God. God is always existing. Not "come from." That is God. Nityo nityānām. You are also existing. This knowledge, they are lacking. Just like I am, you are, we are eternal. We are eternal. We are changing body. Because they do not believe or do not try to understand that I am not this body, therefore the whole mistake is there. Devotee: The scientists would use the same argument. The scientists would say, "Well, since I have not experienced that I am eternal, therefore how can I accept that I am eternal?" Prabhupāda: Yes, you are eternal. Because you were a child and now you are grown up, but you know that you were a child. Therefore you are eternal. You were a child, but you have no that child's body. Now you have got a different body. So although you have got different body, you know that you had a body like a child. Therefore body has changed. You have not changed. That is eternity. Girirāja: And nobody wants to die. Prabhupāda: Nobody wants to die. Girirāja: If the soul is not eternal, where has that desire... Prabhupāda: No. This is eternity. This is practical eternity. You have changed so many times your body, but you are the same person. Therefore you are eternal, in spite of changing body. This is simple argument. Prajāpati: I used that argument once, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the scientists said to me, "It is the chromosomes, the tiny chromosomes that do that change." Prabhupāda: That is their jugglery of words, these rascals. (laughter) "Chromosome, promosome." He will manufacture some word. But where is your chromosome of child body? What is that child body? Where it has gone? If you know, "chromosome, promosome," where has your child's body gone? That is the difficulty. These rascals, they do not know anything. Still, they are teachers and manufacture some jugglery of words. That's all. That is the difficulty. "Chromosome." What is that chromosome? What does it mean, chromosome? Prajāpati: It is a tiny structure of organic matter that can constantly reproduce... Prabhupāda: That's all right. When reproduce, the last body is gone. Prajāpati: They say that the chromosomes that are transferred from father to son... Prabhupāda: Still, the father's body is not the son's body. It is different body. Prajāpati: It has come from father's body. Prabhupāda: That all right, but the father's body is different. The father's pains and pleasure and the son's pains and pleasure are not the same. It may be that the father has given the ingredient of the body, but that does not mean the father's body and the son's body the same. Neither the mind is same, neither intelligence is same. It is all different. Otherwise why a son becomes disobedient to the father, "I don't agree with you"? That means, "Your intelligence, your mind, is different from my mind. I cannot agree with you." Therefore everything is different. Devotee: They can accept that our bodies are changing now, but in the next life they have no experience of this. Prabhupāda: No, next life, this is experience. You were a child, this is your next life. Devotee: They can see this body change, but the next life, they cannot see. *Prabhupāda: That means you have no... You cannot see so many things. Does it mean that it does not exist? What is the value of your eyes? That I already explained. You cannot see. Now it is a misty. You cannot see anything. Does it mean your eyes are perfect. How you can see? Your eyes are not perfect. What you cannot see, you have to hear. Suppose in a distant place I cannot see. "What is that light?" I say. But if somebody knows, "Oh, that light is from..., there is a skyscraper building like this, and the light is coming." So I know what I cannot see, I can hear. Therefore what you do not see, next life, you have to hear from authority. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "As you have changed so many times in this life, this body, similarly, after death, you will change your body." That is authority. You have to hear. Anything you do not, cannot perceive, you cannot experiment with your senses, you have to hear from another person who knows. That is the process. Why you think your eyes are so perfect that you can see anything? Why you are thinking like rascal? Your eyes are imperfect, and why you are thinking that eyes are perfect? That is rascaldom. I cannot see. You cannot see so many things. Is that a right proposition? I cannot see. What you are? What is your position of eyes? If there is darkness, you cannot see. So does it mean that your seeing is the only evidence? What do you think? Suppose if you are a blind man, what can you see? Devotee: My senses are imperfect. I cannot see. Prabhupāda: Yes. You see under certain condition. That's all. So how you believe in such seeing power? Therefore we have to see through the eyes of a person who has perfect vision. That is wanted. Why do you use microscope, telescope, binocular? Why do you use if your eyes are perfect? Why do you use? If you are so confident that your eyes are perfect, why do you use these instruments? And how it is guaranteed that your instrument is also right? Because it is manufactured by your imperfect senses. So this is the position. Jayahari: It is just like the scientists. They cannot accept the existence of the soul until they see it. Prabhupāda: No, that is explained. Why you are repeating that? You have no seeing power, still, you are boast of seeing. That is your rascaldom. That is your rascaldom. Yes. There was a question in a newspaper. A child is asking his father, "Father, you were a girl or a boy in childhood?" Because he has no distinction what is the boy, what is the girl, therefore he is asking that nonsense question. Now, my second son, when he was four years old, we were passing, and there was a big marriage party. You know how marriage party goes? Girirāja: Oh yes. *Prabhupāda: So he was asking. Very intelligent boy, he was asking, "What is this? What is...?" So I also explained, "This man is going to marry." So in this way, after, "Father, you were married?" He asked me. So this nonsense question is there. He does not know, "Without marriage, how I am come into existence?" So these questions are like that, childish questions. It has no meaning. [break] ...the Vedic injunctions is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One must approach guru. Guru means heavy, who knows perfectly. You must go there to learn. And actually it is happening. Why the children are sent to school? When he becomes educated, the same eyes, same hands, same legs, same body, but he becomes educated. What is the different between educated and not educated? Because he has heard from authorities. That's all. This is education. Without going to school, he is not considered to be educated. Why? Because he did not hear from the authorities. Therefore he is uneducated. Let him learn everything. He has got the eyes. He has got the senses. Why he is sent to school? Why? Tell me, why? He has got the eyes. Why he is sent to school for education? Devotee: To hear from the authority. Prabhupāda: Because his eyes have no value without hearing from the authority. These are the general psychology. He has got eyes. Let him be educated at home. Why he is sent to school? Let him see everything. How these rascals say like that, I am surprised. "I cannot see in my eyes." You cannot see in your eyes what was the length and breadth of your body in the mother's womb. But does it mean that you did not exist in the mother's womb? You cannot see who is your father. How do you believe that this is my father? Is that depending on your eyes? Then what is the value of your eyes? Why these rascals say that "I do not see." These things prove that they are rascals. Girirāja: Most of the things in their theories they also have not seen. *Prabhupāda: They have so many things. They simply speak like rascals. Therefore our conclusion is: Anyone who does not know what is God, he is a rascal. That is perfection of knowledge. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know that all knowledge is imperfect unless he comes to the platform of knowing God. All knowledge imperfect. And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad..., bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "When he (is) actually wise in knowledge, then he surrenders to God." That is knowledge. That is knowledge. One who has surrendered to God, one who has known God, one who is abiding by the order of God, he is the perfect man. All others, they are rascals. Prajāpati: After hearing such nice information about God, I think some sincere men might come forward and say... Prabhupāda: Yes. Any gentleman, any sincere man, must accept this proposition. It is so logical. Prajāpati: They will come forward and say, "Now, what practical can we do to help implement these in the government, in the world? What can we do practical?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That you take instruction from us. Because you are all rascals, you do not know. We are experienced. Take advice from us. First thing is that you close the slaughterhouse. Close the liquor house. Will they do that? Prajāpati: It is a question of business. Businessmen have so much control... Prabhupāda: Business or whatever nonsense it may be, but our first proposal is that you become sinless. But they will not agree. They will remain sinful, and still they will say, "In God we believe, we trust," these slogans. "We go to church, we pray," like that. This is the defect. A man has come for your... You are a physician for treatment. As soon as the physician says that "You don't do this," you say, "I cannot give up this." Then how he will be cured? Let him rot. This is the position. Śrutakīrti: You said to me in the garden the other day that there are two kind of ignorant people. One is ignorant innocent and the other is rascal ignorant, and that we should preach to the innocent. But all these politicians, they are not innocent, they are rascal. *Prabhupāda: They are rascal. They are rascal. Maybe some of them are innocent also. But mostly they are rascal because without being first*-class rascal, one cannot go into politics. Just like if somebody says... Now, election. Somebody says that "You become vice-president." So why shall I become vice-president? Because I know I shall not be able to do anything. So why shall I waste my time? So another rascal, he will be ready. "Oh, offering vice-president?" But I know that if I want to manage the state, I have to make the people sinless. So if I propose that "Stop this slaughterhouse," so who will accept me? So why shall I go there? Nobody will accept me. Senate, senators, they will say, "Oh, this is business. This is impractical. You have no experience." He will immediately reject. So therefore mass of people must be conscious what is God, what is sin. So when they will be prepared, these rascals will be changed. Devotee: They would lose too much money if they closed the slaughterhouses. Many of the senators and congressmen have much money from the slaughterhouses and intoxication. They own big ranches of cows and bulls. Prabhupāda: Just see. And they are leaders. The most sinful man is the leader. So how you can be happy? Prajāpati: We would get support from the people who make imitation meat made of soybeans and vegetables that taste like meat. They would be in favor. Girirāja: No, they will say that "It is not against our religion to eat meat." Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is a question of becoming sinless. Every religion will say that you become sinless. Every religion. Girirāja: But in my religion eating meat is not a sin. Prabhupāda: No, no. "My religion is, cut throat of another man is religion?" Would it be accepted? Devotees: No. *Prabhupāda: If somebody says, "My religion is to cut throat of others, to pickpocket others. That is my religion." Would it be accepted? Why sometimes you are arrested. You say, "My religion is to chant." They will say, "No, you cannot do this. It is disturbance." So "Because it is my religion, it will be accepted," that is not a fact. You must come to philosophy and reasoning: "Why don't you cut throat your... Why don't you send your... You say complain, over*-population. Why don't you send the over-population to the slaughterhouse? Why? Why?" Girirāja: Well, it would be inhuman. Prabhupāda: Inhuman. And then cutting throat of the cows, that is not human. Is that very good reasoning? Devotee: They don't think that the cows have souls, many of them. Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. Rascals. Why no soul? What is the symptom of having soul? Devotee: Consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they have no consciousness? Then children? They treat like animals. They have no soul? Then better send all the children to the slaughterhouse. Their, children's flesh is very sweet and palatable. Devotee: They made a movie like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about people... They give up their lives and they are sent to this place where they are mashed up and made into meat, and the people eat them. Prabhupāda: Yes. They do that in many hotels. They, it was in India done. The childcatcher? What is called? Girirāja: Kidnapper. Prabhupāda: Kidnappers. They kidnap and they slaughter, and mix with other meat. It becomes very tasteful. In hotel, one body found a finger of a child. In Kanpur. Devotee: Some social scientists were saying that in twenty years cannibalism will be as acceptable among the society as illicit sex is now. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will do that. Because people are degrading. They are not advancing. Prajāpati: When we tell them to stop their sinful activities, they will say "What do you mean by sinful?" *Prabhupāda: Sinful means, generally, what is against the law of God. That is sinful. Just like what is criminal? Any action which is against the law of the state, that is criminal. Similarly, sinful means what is against the law of God. That is sinful. But you do not know what is God. You do not know what is the law of God. Therefore you do not know what is sin. That you have to learn from us. It is all due to ignorance. Now God says, "I am the father of all living entities." So this is quite reasonable. If there is God... So... And it is stated in the Vedic literature, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief eternal. So we are all sons of God. What we are? Simply human being? No. In the Bhagavad, sarva*-yoniṣu: "In all species of life, as many forms are there, I am the bīja-pradaḥ-pitā." So everyone is your brother. So suppose if you want to cut throat of your brother, will your father be happy? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: So because you are not God conscious you are doing all this nonsense. You do not know who is father. Therefore you cut throat, your brother. [break] ...that those who are eating vegetables, they are also killing. That's a fact. But God says that "You can eat this." God says... By nature... Just like the animal. They will eat these leaves, the grass. Nature. But they will not eat meat. Tena tyaktena. Whatever God dictates, "Now you eat this," He is eating. But you give him meat. No, he will not take it. So whatever you are allotted, you should eat. That is God's law, that after all, one has to eat. So what you will eat? Everything is living. Therefore allotted. You are allotted, "These things is allotted for you. You eat." We God conscious people therefore eat... Without going into the details, we eat anything what God eats. That's all. There is no question of discriminating what we shall eat. We eat prasādam. That's all. So we are safe. Devotee: They will say that Jesus Christ ate meat. Prabhupāda: All right, Jesus Christ took meat, but Jesus Christ never said that you maintain slaughterhouse. Is there any Bible, anything? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then you eat meat. All right. You kill and meat. Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse? Is that Jesus Christ's instruction, rascal? Thousands of slaughterhouse you are maintaining under the order of Jesus Christ? So they are rascals. You eat meat, all right. Jesus Christ, meat... Of course, once, twice he might have because he was a... (end) Morning Walk -- December 19, 1973, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...that "Bhagavad*-gītā is now old. We require new knowledge." What is your answer? Hṛdayānanda: That Kṛṣṇa is eternal and perfect, and whatever Kṛṣṇa speaks is also eternally perfect. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Śāśvata means eternally fresh. Therefore ignorance is also eternal. Because knowledge means absence of ignorance. That is knowledge. So side by side, two things are there. Now, if you are in ignorance, there is no knowledge. Hṛdayānanda: Nābhāvo vidyate sataḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Nāsato vidyate bhāvaḥ. It is the negative. Positive side is knowledge. Darkness. Darkness. Just like, where there is no light, there is darkness. [break] Prajāpati: ...Prabhupāda, we'll be able to see that comet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: They say one hour before dawn in the eastern horizon. [break] ...talking a lot about in trusting in God. What is the Sanskrit for trust? What word would be used in the śāstras. Prabhupāda: Śraddhā, faith. Prajāpati: And there are particular scriptural verses that speak about this? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Caitanya-caritāmṛta. That is the beginning of spiritual consciousness, faith. Prajāpati: Unconditionally then. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unconditionally means, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], giving up all other conditions of faith. [break] Jayatīrtha: We only hear about him eating. Prabhupāda: Why you did not refute that idea? We see every moment God. What is that light? Even if you see light, what do you gain by that. Jayatīrtha: He says that Guru Maharaji is the light. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Here is electric light also. So what is the benefit? Light, you have got so many lights. So what is the benefit? If you remain in the darkness, then what is the benefit of this light? Light means you are not in darkness. But you are in darkness. If you have got the light, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. But why do you say that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness we cannot see Kṛṣṇa. Rascal. We may not see. But you have seen the light, why don't you see Kṛṣṇa? Do you know what is Kṛṣṇa if you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Hṛdayānanda: It's true, Prabhupāda. They are in darkness because they cannot check their material activities by seeing the light. They go on with sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Light. We have go so many lights. What is the benefit of seeing the light? Jayatīrtha: They only call us so that we'll arrange to bring some prasādam. Prabhupāda: They do not supply prasādam, these rascals? [break] Everyone can see. So if Guru Maharaji is light, then why everybody does not follow? If he is light, light can be seen by everyone. Just like sunlight, moonlight, we can see. Everyone can see. Hṛdayānanda: They argue that he only will reveal himself to those who surrender to him. Prabhupāda: But those who have surrendered, they cannot speak anything. They are in darkness. When we talk with your disciple who has surrendered, they cannot argue with us. They are in darkness. So what kind of light he has seen? Jayatīrtha: It is all just sentimental. *Prajāpati: Many of these bogus groups, Prabhupāda, they claim that God is simply sound and light. So their meditation means seeing what they call ājñā*-cakra, or point between eyebrows. They see there and they hear sounds, bells and thunder and flute all within. And that is their meditation. Hearing these sounds and see these lights. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but what do you gain by that? Prajāpati: Supposedly they go to higher levels of existence, higher levels of consciousness. They change the sound and the colors change... Prabhupāda: But you cannot give up even smoking. You are in higher level of consciousness? So what is the proof that you are on the higher level of the consciousness? You cannot give up even ordinary things. Jayatīrtha: They say that the scriptures aren't relevant in this age, that they don't make any difference in this age. They were for previous ages. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayatīrtha: Because people cannot understand them, so Guru Maharaji has simply come and making it very simple. He just makes them see the light and then everything is simple. They don't have to do anything else. Prabhupāda: And what is the benefit of seeing that light? He has to work, he has to search out for food. So what is the benefit by seeing the light? By seeing the light, has he become freed from all this botheration? Then what is the use of that light he has seen? Hṛdayānanda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Prabhupāda: Nivartate. Prajāpati: They say the benefit of the light is that light is God. So when they see that light, that is God. So that is the benefit. Prabhupāda: No. When you see light, you must know there is a source of light. Just like you are seeing the light and the light is there. Therefore there must be a source of the light. Unless you see Him, it is not perfect. Besides that, whether you have seen actually the light? What is the result of seeing that light? Do they explain? Suppose he has seen. I have not seen. So what is the difference between him and me? Jayatīrtha: Unless the heart becomes purified, there is no sense in seeing any light. The heart has to become cleansed. Hṛdayānanda: They say they will be happier than someone who has not seen the light. Their life will have more meaning. Prabhupāda: So happier, they are becoming happier in so many other ways. What is the use of seeing the light? Jayatīrtha: The pigs are also happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't waste time by arguing with him. Neglect them. Do not talk of them. Hṛdayānanda: Just like you say, Prabhupāda, they are actually defeating themselves. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Prajāpati: The scientists are much more formidable demons. Prabhupāda: Not formidable. They can easily conquered. Hṛdayānanda: I have heard that Amarendra is defeating them in Gainesville. He goes to scientific meetings and he defeats them. And the devotees go in the audience, and they cheer, and he defeats them. Prabhupāda: That's right. [break] Prajāpati: Is it sometimes cold in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) You don't like to go there? Prajāpati: Oh yes, I like to go there. Actually, I would rather be here in the cold with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, than be in the warm without you. Prajāpati: He says he only sees light when he closes his eyes. Prabhupāda: Close? Prajāpati: Like this. Prabhupāda: Anyway, close or open... Devotee: Inner light. Prabhupāda: Oh. Inner light, not outward light. Then he is not absolute. He is relative. He is relative. He is not absolute. So God is absolute. But you are relative. Therefore you are not God. Hṛdayānanda: Kṛṣṇa illuminated the house of the gopīs. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, he does not accept Kṛṣṇa. That is rejected. Now we are talking about him. If he is light, why does he use electric light? If he says, "The inner light," then you are relative. You see only inner side, not outside. Therefore you are relative. Therefore you are not God. God is absolute. Antar*-bahiḥ. One has to see light inside and outside. That is real light. If the light is checked by some material condition, that is not absolute light. That is electric light. As soon as you come to the condition, then it is relative. It is not absolute. [break] A man can be changed from barking to chanting, but dog cannot be. [break] ...is so powerful that as soon as there is sunrise, immediately darkness gone. Similarly, if the absolute light is there, if there is need of electricity, what kind of light it is? Even the relative light is so powerful that immediately darkness gone. So you are not as powerful as the relative light. So what kind of light you are? This should be the argument. You are cheating. You are not light. You are darkness. Our, that slogan is "Where there is God, there is no darkness." "Kṛṣṇa is like the sun, and nescience is like darkness. Where there is Kṛṣṇa, there is no darkness." Don't waste time with these rascals. Go on with your own business. You sold Bhagavad-gītā. (laughs) That is our profit. That's all. Hṛdayānanda: Over a thousand. Prabhupāda: Just see. In that meeting? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And they could not sell their magazine. Hṛdayānanda: No. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) So just imagine where is light. In our side or their side? They are deprecating, "Bhagavad*-gītā is now old. We require new knowledge." Still, we sold thousand copies. *Hṛdayānanda: Finally the Guru Maharaji said over the microphone, "Don't buy more of these Bhagavad*-gītās." (laughter) He said it's not bona fide. I told Prabhupāda that when the devotees had a big kīrtana, all the people... Prabhupāda: So what was the result, stopped? Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, after that it was more difficult. After that, the devotees were preaching more to individuals. But that was already after a thousand Gītās had been sold. Everyone left their meeting and went out to see the kīrtana. They had to keep calling them back, over and over again, "Please, please come back." (end) Morning Walk -- December 20, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...that the energy is displayed. It works; again it comes back to the original. That's all. So what is their idea of conservation of energy? The same thing. Karandhara: Well, they say that there is no original. It never began, so there's no original. Hṛdayānanda: They also say that there's no resting place. They say that energy has no resting place. Prabhupāda: But that is absurd because we see the energy is coming from the powerhouse, electric energy. How you cannot deny? Karandhara: The energy is just generated there, but it is not created there. Prabhupāda: Generated, you simply change the name. What is the difference between generated and created? Karandhara: Well, created means to be born or to start. Prabhupāda: Yes, born. The child is created. There was no child. Karandhara: But the energy which makes up this body was always present. Prabhupāda: That we also say, by the formation, when it takes place, it is created. Just like you prepare food. Why do you say, "prepare"? What is the meaning of "prepare"? The ingredients are there, but why do you say, "prepare food"? You cannot say... Huh? What is that? Hṛdayānanda: Before you prepare it, that particular preparation... Prabhupāda: That we say. The energy was... Karandhara: That is just a conventional term in relationship to you. That is just relative to you, relative to your relationship with that food. Prabhupāda: This is called impersonalism... Karandhara: But the food was always there. Prabhupāda: ...that... We talk in relationship, everything, because this is relative world. Everything we talk, that is in relative consideration. That is Māyāvāda philosophy. They do not accept the relativity. Although when there is some toothache, he will go to the doctor. Why does he not..., "No, it is māyā. Why I shall be troubled with the toothache?" Why does he go to the doctor? That is the defect of Māyāvāda philosophy. They are being affected by the change, but still, they will say, "There is no change. It is all the same." Karandhara: Well, that is what they say. They say, "If it is all the same, then I can go to the doctor." Prabhupāda: Yes, but that is foolishness. If they say once that "The suffering and not suffering is all the same," why does he go to the doctor? Karandhara: Well, when you say, "It's all the same," it doesn't matter what you do. You have encompassed everything. Girirāja: But they always go. Karandhara: That doesn't matter. If they don't go or do go, it's all the same. It doesn't matter. Prabhupāda: That means it doesn't matter... If I beat you with shoes, it doesn't matter? Why do you become angry? Karandhara: Well, it doesn't matter that I become angry. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So let me beat you. You don't become angry or become angry, I don't care. Karandhara: Well, they say, "That's going on anyway." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then there is no question of philosophy. Finish. Everything one. That... This philosophy was discussed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His mother. He was eating dirt, and mother gave Him sandeśa. So He did not care to take sandeśa. He was eating dirt. Then mother came, "My dear boy, why you are eating dirt? Here is sandeśa. I have given you." "Mother, what is the difference between sandeśa and dirt? They are all the same. (laughing) They are all the same." "Yes, my dear boy, You are impersonalist philosopher. But it is required. Just like the water jug is also earth, made of earth. It is earth. And this ground is also earth. But when you have to keep water you require this water jug, not this earth." That is relativity. If you have to take work, then you cannot say, "Well, this is also earth, this is also... Why...? The pot is not required. Put water here." Then you will suffer, no water. So this kind of philosophy was discussed when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a child. [break] ...and the tree is the same thing. But when I walk, I require the stick, not this tree. [break] ...The dogs must be on lash (leash). If somebody does not do that, he is criminal. So if he pleads in the court, "There is no difference, dogs on the lash or without lash. Why you are punishing me?" But will that be accepted? Karandhara: Well, the judge says, "There is no difference whether I put you in jail or not." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. Then he has to accept jail. He should not defend himself. "Never mind. I go to jail." Why he appoints a lawyer to defend himself? Karandhara: Well, that's what the impersonalist philosophers say, that "Go ahead and..." [break] Prajāpati: ...The most famous theologian of this century named Paul Tillich said that all words are symbols, and God is a religious symbol pointing to our ultimate concern. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. We say also. Karandhara: Except Paul Tillich was the ultimate rascal. He was a debaucher. He debauched women all over Europe. Hṛdayānanda: He recently died. Karandhara: There is a book about him, a very inflammatory book about how he would debauch all of his friends. He said he got all of his inspirations after having sex with other women. He said after having sex he would get his inspirations on theology. Prabhupāda: Sometimes the drunkards say also like that. They get inspiration by drinking. Karandhara: There is one very famous philosopher named Dubrown(?). He said that he had a saying that "Some men say that you become intoxicated by wine, but I become sobered by wine." Prabhupāda: That can be accepted. "One man's food, another man's poison." That is going on everywhere. But for that reason one cannot accept poison as food. Is it not? Just like stool is food for the pigs. But that does not mean stool is food. It may be food for a certain class of animals. [break] No. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't think so. Prajāpati: Food for somebody. Karandhara: It is very hard. Prajāpati: Harder than a bullet? [break] Prabhupāda: Oh, you have not covered? Child: That's all right. [break] Prajāpati: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, so they are coming to consciousness. Why they are praying to God? Prajāpati: Things get so bad, they have to turn to God. Prabhupāda: Duḥkhe sab hari bhaje. When one is distressed, there is sense of God consciousness, but if they continue it even in their happiness, then it is all right. Prajāpati: They must have knowledge though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But in happiness they forget. (aside:) Don't keep so near. Prajāpati: Without knowledge their sentiment is just worthless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: That's a fact. In American history, whenever there was economic prosperity, always increase in sense gratification. Historically speaking, in America, whenever there was increase in prosperity, there was a trend towards irreligion and sense gratification. Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Luxury leads to poverty. [break] ...a living man, but if you are actually interested, why don't you do it, organized way. Sentiment, it is good, but if you do not understand the science, sentiment may be for the time being. Sentiment is sentiment. That will not act. They are admitting sinful activities? Prajāpati: Yes, they are admitting that... They are an abyss of moral decay. Prabhupāda: So let them know what are the sinful activities. These are the sinful activities. Close all the slaughterhouses. Close all these illicit sex brothel houses, and close the liquor houses. Prajāpati: The gambling also. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Then their business will be finished. Then they will say, "Where we stand? It is all finished." Now you stand on a different platform. Prajāpati: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in class, you mentioned how the churches, people could pay them for supposedly becoming very religious men. In Las Vegas, the capital of the gambling and the illicit sex and the intoxication, where all these things are very prominent, the churches there are very prominent also. These big demons, they pay large money to the churches and therefore they feel like they are very religious men even though they are committing all these sinful activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. And by taking their sinful money, because they do not engage to Kṛṣṇa, they also become sinful. Affection. Infection. [break] They have mentioned something like sinful? Prajāpati: Yes, sinful. Prabhupāda: What he has said, Karandhara? Karandhara: He doesn't say specifically. He just said that generally the country is degraded and people have become apathetic, and the morals have reduced. He was referring to things like Watergate, political scandals, and the youth degradation. Prabhupāda: But why they have degraded? That is to be understood... Not known to them. Karandhara: Yes. Actually they don't have the scientific analysis. They just have some vague understanding that things are falling apart. Prabhupāda: Here are the causes. Sinful life. [break] Prajāpati: ...the affair, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Oh, then the country could be... Prabhupāda: No, no, I am already in charge, but who is following me? (laughter) That is the difficulty. [break] ...one who is to be followed, that is called ācārya. So who is following the ācārya? Nobody is following. Ācārya is there, but nobody is following ācārya. Ācaraṇa. Ācaraṇa means behavior. Ācārya. "This man is ideal. One should follow him." That is called ācārya. [break] ...to allow us one day to have chanting and speaking something about God consciousness. Prajāpati: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. And I will go. I will speak and have kīrtana. [break] ...date. Karandhara: April 30th. Prabhupāda: April 30th. So on that date arrange a meeting of the senators. And I will go and speak and have kīrtana, what is actually life. Approach them that "We are spreading this. So why not arrange meeting?" Or any day, on 30th or any day. [break] ...office here in Los Angeles? Karandhara: The local senator does. For this area. Prabhupāda: So see him. You and you go and arrange, and explain to him that "This is our movement, simply how to make people pure, moral, sinless, and advanced in God consciousness." Just take this opportunity. "You come and see how God consciousness we are executing, and then arrange a meeting in the Senate. And try to understand, 'It is simply sentiment or how it will help me?' " [break] ...so much money, and still they are crying, "Degradation." So they should come to their senses. This kind of understanding will not help. They must understand scientifically. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everybody is saying, not only politicians, but everybody is saying that we are degrading. Moral standard is degrading. But nobody acts. That is the difficulty. Prabhupāda: So it is our duty to help them. Those who are... Just like here is an opportunity. Go, see them immediately, the person. It is our duty. [break] Sometime I can go and see. Who is the senator, local? Karandhara: I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: Find out and arrange some meeting. I shall go personally. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many senators here in California? Karandhara: Two per state. [break] Prabhupāda: As we know about God, nobody knows in the world. That is a fact. Any person we can challenge that he has no clear idea, what is God, how to contact God, how to... Nobody knows. [break] Prajāpati: ...a vague notion that they should be serving God, but they do not know how or what will please God. *Prabhupāda: Vague notion must be there because we have got relationship with God, eternal. So that is stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Nitya-siddha. It is eternally a fact that we are servant of God, but we have forgotten this. So that has to be revived by this śravaṇa-kīrtana, by hearing, chanting. This is the process. Otherwise, the relationship is already there. It is not to be created. It is already there. [break] Prajāpati: An article appeared about the Vedānta Society here, and they mentioned us to say that we are not them. They said that "Those Hare Kṛṣṇas, they are fundamentalists." Just like there are fundamentalist Christians, we are fundamentalist followers of Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice actually because it is fundamental to believe everything that Kṛṣṇa says. Prabhupāda: And what is the Vedānta? Hṛdayānanda: Speculation. They are speculators. They mostly have very elderly members, and they sit around in the evening and discuss. Prabhupāda: A few. Not even a dozen. Karandhara: In their āśrama they say they have eight or ten people living there. Prabhupāda: No young men. Karandhara: No, all old ladies and men. The only reason they are allowed to live there is because they have given huge sums as donations. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...last almost one hundred years, eighty, eighty*-five years. So how many followers they have got? Karandhara: They have made no significant impression on anyone. Prabhupāda: No. [break] Ramakrishna is God. Kālī is God. And they offer prasādam, what is that? Chicken... Karandhara: Chicken, turkey, even meat. Prabhupāda: Just see. Karandhara: Trivikrama Svāmī went to their monastery in Laguna Beach. So they were serving meat. Trivikrama said, "Why do you eat meat?" And they said, "That doesn't matter. What does it matter what you eat ?" Prabhupāda: Why don't you eat stool? This question was raised by Mālatī. One man said like that. She said, "Why don't you eat stool? Why you discriminate?" [break] Ramakrishna Mission has done the greatest harm to the Vedic culture. [break] ...said, "Why you are afraid of God?" He said like that. "Why you are afraid of God?" One Christian padre, priest, he said, "You are coming from India? How you are speaking like this?" He was astonished. But this rascal spoke like that. "Why do you believe that you are sinners? There is no sin." [break] Prajāpati: The greatest sin is to think of ourselves as sinners. [break] Yogananda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Because he was a rascal number one sinner. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example that the rabbits closing their eyes thinking that the danger is over. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] *Hṛdayānanda: Shivananda, I gave a lecture at an āśrama where his disciple was teaching, Vishnu Devananda. So he told a story how Shivananda, he would find out the lowest class of people, and he would go and garland them and worship them just like the Deity. And so his argument was that in Bhagavad*-gītā it says, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. *Prabhupāda: Why he is to the lower class? Sama*-darśinaḥ means he is equal to higher or lower. Why he is going to the lower? He could not answer this? Sama-darśinaḥ, equal. Then he must be equal to the lower and the higher. So why he is particularly to the lower class? Then he is not sama-darśinaḥ. Hṛdayānanda: Then his argument would be that he is trying to teach a lesson that the higher... *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. He may say nonsense. The fact is this. That if he is sama*-darśinaḥ, equal, then why he is particularly aiming to the lower class? That means he is not sama-darśinaḥ. He has not come to the stage. He is simply talking nonsense. Sama-darśinaḥ means he is equal to everyone. That is sama-darśinaḥ. Sama-darśinaḥ does not mean to get a cheap adoration, popularity, I go to the poor. That is their Ramakrishna Mission. They also are doing that same thing. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā, like that. Why daridra? Why not real Nārāyaṇa? Just like this morning we read nārāyaṇa-pade. Never said daridra-nārāyaṇa-pade. To the great. Surrender does not mean to the lower. Does it mean surrender? Surrender, this relationship means that to whom I surrender, he is greater than me. And to the lower, mercy. These two words. One who is lower than me, I may show my mercy, but one who is greater than me, there is the question of surr... [break] (end) Morning Walk -- December 21, 1973, Los Angeles Prajāpati: His name is Harvey Cox, and he's at Harvard University, and his books are read by millions of people. As soon as one of his books comes out, everybody looks. So in this new book, his basic thesis is that God is especially interested to the causes of the poor people, and the poor people are much closer to God than anyone else. Prabhupāda: Another rascal. Prajāpati: I was wondering if Your Divine Grace would like to comment on such a thesis. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. Karandhara: Another very prominent... He's a psychiatrist and a theologian. His name is Menninger. So about ten years ago he wrote a book that the conception of sin and evil was unnecessary, and one should give up considering that some things are sins. Now he just wrote a book saying that he was wrong, that since he has promoted this theory everyone is degrading, and that the theory of sin and evil should be maintained to keep the people in good order. Prajāpati: This basic thesis of the leading theologian in our country... He's saying that the poor people are closer to God and God is specifically looking on their cause more than anyone else. He's at Harvard University. Prabhupāda: But the one thing is, who is poor? Admitting. We admit, of course, that God is specially interested with the fallen or degraded. But first thing is that who is fallen? Who is poor? That is to be ascertained. Guest (1) (Indian man): But there is one more thing. I don't think God could be so partial that He would... Prabhupāda: No, God cannot be partial. Guest (1): ...that he would look only to the poor. But as there is a saying in Hindi that (Hindi) So they say, "When a man is poor, and he is miserable, then he remembers more God." *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not necessarily. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto arthārthī [Bg. 7.16]. When one is distressed he remembers God, if he is pious. If he is not pious... Guest (1): Then he won't remember. Then he will curse him. Then he will curse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): That is correct. But even a pious man in prosperity, he doesn't think of God so much. Prabhupāda: If he is pious, then in his distress, he will remember God. Guest (1): Yes, but a pious man in his prosperity sometimes forgets, as Sugrīva had the tendency to forget and he had to be reminded. Prabhupāda: No, that is very rarely. Sugrīva forgot. Anyway, there is chance of such thing because the distressed man, although he is pious, as soon as his distress is moved, then he forgets. There is such chance. Therefore ārto arthārthī jñānī jijñāsuḥ. Four classes of men. So ārto arthārthī. They, after benefiting by the grace of God, they may forget. But those who are jñānī, they will not forget. That is the difference. So these theologicians, they are changing their opinion. What is that, Karandhara, you said? Karandhara: Well, another very prominent psychiatrist and theologian, about ten years ago he wrote a very famous book wherein he said that people should give up the idea of evil and sin because it is just an inhibition on the mind. But now he just wrote another book saying that he was wrong, and since people have given up the idea of sin and evil, the whole world has degraded to such a bad state that now, even though there may not be a God, they should still believe in evil just to keep things in order. Prabhupāda: Then if there is no God, then who will judge what is evil and what is right? If there is no God? People are abiding the law, "Keep to the right, keep to the left," because they know, "Behind this order, there is government." If he does not keep the arrangement, then he will be punished. So as soon as you accept the principles of bad and good, then you have to accept God. Now, this kind of theologician, some years ago his opinion was something, and now his opinion is different. Guest (1): I think they keep on changing their opinion according to the world condition... Prabhupāda: So that is not perfect. Guest (1): And when they see that the conditions and the things in the world as they are, they don't fit in with their theories, then they change their theories. Prabhupāda: No. So they are opportunists. They are not learned scholar. Our proposition is that five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa taught that "I am the Supreme." So Arjuna accepted, paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma: [Bg. 10.12] "Yes, You are Supreme." Then all the ācāryas later on, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya, all accepted. "Yes," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Then after that, ācārya system, Lord Caitanya accepted, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." So after Caitanya, five hundred years, all the ācāryas, they are accepting. So we are accepting or teaching the same thing. No change, no change. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. If there is change, that is not nitya, that is not śāśvata. That is circumstantial. That is material. *Guest (1): Yes. That is the difference between man*-made law and... Nitya and śāśvata. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was coming here at six, but I caught cold. Therefore I have changed the time. Guest (1): Yes, six is a bit too early. Prabhupāda: Yes, too early. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...loving propensity, we want to love somebody, up to the dog, but we are not getting satisfaction because the love is placed in wrong place. But if you love Kṛṣṇa, then everything will be all right. [break]. If you pour water on the root, it reaches to all the branches, twigs, leaves, flowers, everything. [break] (Hindi). Guest (1): Disneyland, all sorts of shows and devices for children. Prabhupāda: So children's father also go there? Guest (1): [break] She is also doing that japa. And while this mālā, doing mālā, and doing the japa, the mind doesn't remain fixed in God. You know, it wanders about. So what is the way of fixing the mind? Prabhupāda: To hear. "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Chant and hear. Guest (1): Speak loudly. Guest (2) (Indian lady): Speak loudly but still the mind goes away here and there. *Prabhupāda: Then that is called... abhyāsa*-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8]. That you have to practice. (Hindi) We have got a sāṅkhya, that "You must perform so many times." It doesn't matter what is... Then gradually, (Hindi). This is the only... Guest (2): I think it takes many births to have the effect. *Prabhupāda: No, you can have immediately, provided you follow the rules and regulations. That's all. Not many births, immediately. Tat*-kṣaṇāt. Śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. In the Bhāgavata it is said. Īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt. The tat-kṣaṇāt means immediately. But one must very eager. That's all. That is the only qualification. Otherwise, Śukadeva Gosvāmī would not... Vyāsadeva would not have used this word, tat-kṣaṇāt, immediately. I think that hill is Hollywood? Jayatīrtha: Beverly Hills, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is Beverly Hills. Karandhara: No, that is Hollywood Hills. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi) Jayatīrtha: If one isn't eager, how can he become eager, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: By association. By association. Therefore this society. We are giving chance. You were not eager four years ago. Now why you are eager? You come to the Society and become eager, automatically. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ [SB 3.25.25]. By sat-saṅga, it becomes very pleasing to the ear and to the heart. And if you little try, then it becomes successful. But if it is so-called sat-saṅga, professional, hired Bhāgavata-reader, then it will... Thousand, thousand years will no, not effect. Guest (1): Then it is merchandising. *Prabhupāda: Merchandising. That is the... (Hindi) Each verse of Bhāgavata is volumes of philosophy, but neither they know it, neither they explain it. The Bhāgavata*-patha means rāsa-līlā. That's all. Guest (1): Yes. that is what Bhāgavata has been... *Prabhupāda: What they will understand, rāsa*-līlā? Guest (1): It has been misrepresented. Prabhupāda: Misrepresented. They will think that it is ordinary, just like young boy, young girls, they mix together. *Guest (1): And that rāsa*-līlā is also not taken in that moral sense. It is more of a sex exploitation. That is how they... *Prabhupāda: No. Why one should go to the rāsa*-līlā? It is in the Tenth Canto. And in the thirty-fifth chapter. So what is the purpose? Guest (1): No. That is being misrepresented. That has also been taken as an enjoyment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): It has been taken more as sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. So Karandhara Prabhu, this time is nice. Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We get full sunshine. Yes. Guest (1): Prabhupāda, what is the meaning of the word Śrīla? Prabhupāda: Śrīla is... just like we say "Śrī" to the ordinary person. And Śrīla to very respectable person. Guest (1): La. Prabhupāda: La, yes. Śrī means beauty, and la means līlā. So "one who is invested with both beauty and the power to understand the līlā of Kṛṣṇa." [break] Aśoka's mother came to see me in Bombay. Guest (2): Yes, I have asked her. First I came, then I told her. Prabhupāda: Yes, that lady came to see me. Very nice lady. Guest (1): Aśoka's mother, she has fixed up two or three programs in her school. Girl's school. Prabhupāda: Yes. That (Hindi) Girirāja: She showed the series of slides of Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. There in the school? Girirāja: Yes. The children enjoyed it very much. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii one seven year old boy... [break] Prajāpati: The children here also, Prabhupāda. They love that book so... [break] Girirāja: Yes, I know him. Prabhupāda: What is his name? Girirāja: Surajman. Prabhupāda: Surajman. He is your family? Guest (1): No, Birla's family. They are relatives... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...son and daughter*-in-law. Guest (1): Surajman's son? Prabhupāda: Not here. In London. [break] ...nephew of Vamana(?). Guest (1): Didi Birla's sister's son. That is Candra (indistinct). He is related to (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Is that the man who gave us a car? He is Candrakant? Guest (1): Candrakant. You were taking their house? Girirāja: Yes. Near Mahatma Gandhi Road. Guest (1): Yes, that is Candrakant. In Calcutta, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Yes, there is also my student. [break] Now the government is so irresponsible. Just like in Nairobi, I was refused permission. You see. We spent so much money, and they did not inform before. And when I was on the airport... That also, no written order. They said, "From higher authorities it is the order that you cannot enter." Just see. Kenya. So at the present moment we have got many enemies of this movement. (Hindi) "You are converting these European and American into brāhmaṇa. How they can become brāhmaṇa without taking birth as brāhmaṇa?" (Hindi) Guest (1): You have done quite a lot. [break] Prabhupāda: Yes. Here also they go to parties. Where they go here? Jayatīrtha: To downtown Los Angeles and Hollywood. *Prabhupāda: In New York, everywhere, every town, our men go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and sells books. That's it. [break] ...order. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Whomever you meet, you just deliver the instruction of Kṛṣṇa to him. That's all. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. [break] (Hindi) They have got a cultural department, but not for helping this. And then... (Hindi) This is my position. Just see. (Hindi) That is the śāstric injunction. Kīrtana means about Viṣṇu. But these Ramakrishna men will say, "Why not Kālī?" Guest (1): No, no, no, they never say that. Prabhupāda: But they say that. Guest (1): No sir. I am attending their lectures, classes, and discussing with them. *Prabhupāda: Vivekananda's philosophy is yata mata tata patha: "Whatever you have got, your opinion, that is all right." They organize Kālī*-kīrtana in competition to... *Guest (1): Yes, in their mandira. In the mandira. In the mandira their kīrtana is Kālī*-kīrtana. Prabhupāda: But that is not recommended in the śāstra. Śāstra is: śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Guest (1): You are right, but then when it comes to... That was why it was outdoor kīrtana. And they said if they come, they can be our guests and they called the kīrtana out to do what they like. He said, "So that is how..." Prabhupāda: Which car? No, it is my auto? [break] Jagajjīvana: We don't have that many Spanish books. Prabhupāda: English books. Jagajjīvana: A small fair. Thousands of people go to this flower festival in the mountains, and we went in, and they let us in and we chanted and hundreds of people came to chant. And then the officials came to stop us. Prabhupāda: Why? Jagajjīvana: Because too many people were coming to hear the chanting. So then... Prabhupāda: They did not like it? *Jagajjīvana: No, they did not like it, the officials. So then we started to leave, thinking, "Well, rather than cause any trouble, we better leave." So then the people, they wouldn't let us leave. So then the leaders there, they were forced to put us on stage. And so we chanted on stage with big microphones and thousands of people came to listen, and then we taught them how to chant Nitāi*-Gaurāṅga, and they all chanted. Nitāi, Nitāi, Gaurāṅga, Gaurāṅga. It was very amazing. And then we distributed books and we lectured. [break] Their Lordships Gaura-Nitāi have come because of that chanting, Deities. [break] Prabhupāda: If the chanter is sincere. Jagajjīvana: In the Dominican Republic which is an island near us, the chanting is so powerful, it draws so many people, that the government won't let us in to the country because it is so powerful. We have devotees there now, though. We had to send a devotee incognito, in disguise, to get residence there. Now he's... Prabhupāda: Oh, they will not give place? Jagajjīvana: They didn't let us in the country, but we have devotees there now. [break] We had an article in a magazine recently. I can show it to you later. Prabhupāda: What does he say? Jagajjīvana: Well, it's about that we weren't allowed into the Dominican Republic and they were stopping us from coming in, and that one million people buy our books and that millions of people buy our books and many people... Prabhupāda: Spanish book? Jagajjīvana: All types of books. Had some nice pictures. In the article there is a picture of us giving books to the governor of Puerto Rico. [break] Prabhupāda: So we have got books in Spanish now? Which book? Jagajjīvana: We have the... Prabhupāda: *Īśopaniṣad*. Jagajjīvana: Yeah, we haven't gotten that yet, though. There is the Perfection of Yoga, Topmost Yoga, and the Back to Godhead. Hṛdayānanda: *Easy Journey to Other Planets*. Jagajjīvana: Yeah, but I don't have that. I have some copies but not a lot. Hṛdayānanda: Also On Chanting. *Jagajjīvana: Yeah, there is a chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā, Second chapter is done. It hasn't been distributed yet until February. We are two blocks away from a college. It has 32,000 students, and we go there every day and chant and the Communists come and we start preaching to them. Prabhupāda: Communists? Students are under Communistic? What the Communists preaches? There is no God? Jagajjīvana: Yes. And that in this life you can become perfect. There can be a perfect man without Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Ah, so who has become that perfect man? Amongst your Communists? The Stalin is considered the greatest criminal in the world, in the history, Stalin. So how he is perfect man? If he is the greatest criminal? Jagajjīvana: [break] Mostly Spanish countries. [break] Another town in Puerto Rico we have a center there also. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Jagajjīvana: That is on the other side of the island, on Puerto Rico. Prabhupāda: Rūpānuga Mahārāja went there? Jagajjīvana: Yes. And... Prabhupāda: He can speak in Spanish? Jagajjīvana: No. We have a translator. He speaks and someone translates. And there is a school there with 25,000 students. Scientist students. [break] ...all photographs of the chanting to show how people are taking this. Prabhupāda: Taking part. That's nice. *Jagajjīvana: So they will see the potency of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...many devotees. Sixty, seventy devotees. And Viṣṇujana Mahārāja was there with Rādhā*-Dāmodara. He is doing very nicely. And then I stopped in Atlanta to see Balavanta Prabhu, and he has got a big office now. Prabhupāda: Election? Jagajjīvana: Yes. He is thinking of running for Congress next. [break] And that was very nice. Prabhupāda: Students are doing very nice? Jagajjīvana: Oh yes. I was there before when Amarendra ran for mayor in Dallas. I helped him with that. And I got a chance to associate with the children there. And they have made so much advancement since last I was there. Prabhupāda: They are now chanting ślokas very nice? Jagajjīvana: Yes. Dayānanda Prabhu is doing very well. And Hiraṇyagarbha Prabhu is teaching them Sanskrit and English. But mostly they like kīrtana. They become very ecstatic during kīrtana. Prabhupāda: That is real business. Jagajjīvana: So Mohānanda was very good at kīrtana. He was kīrtana man. Expert. (end) Morning Walk -- December 29, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...not come? Karandhara: He's coming Prabhupāda. He just pulled up. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayahari: Prabhupāda, this morning you talked about astrology in your lecture. Is this accepted in the Vedic scripture and by the gurus? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Astrology means... That is also Vedic. Jyotir*-veda. Jyotir-veda. That is also part of the Vedas. The brāhmaṇas, they learn these three things: astrology and medicine. These two things. A brāhmaṇa is supposed to go to every householder's place, and he will inform, "Today is such and such tithi. The such and such thing should be done." And if required, if somebody inquires about, "Now I am going to that place. What will happen? Just find out the auspicious moment," so they will give him. Still it is current. It may be wrongly done or rightly, but the system is still there. Astrologer. The king should be always accompanied by a first-class astrologer. [break] ...there is a whole street, both sides simply astrology. [break] ...good astrologers. Jayahari: Astrology is very popular in the western world. [break] Prabhupāda: Where is our scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, how are you? Thank you very much. Come on. How are you? Feeling all right? Dr. Wolfe: Fine, thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I brought a friend, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from Calcutta. He was my class friend in Calcutta. He is from St. Xavier's College. He graduated. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bengali? Sujit: Bengali. (Bengali conversation) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...Mahatma Gandhi Road. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Daniel, come here. Daniel Sardar. Sujit: Sujit. Prabhupāda: Sujit, oh. (Bengali conversation regarding his being a student of science, chemistry and plastics engineering, and Śrīla Prabhupāda tells him that he attended Scottish Churches' College) [break] ...astrology? Sujit: What is my opinion? Prabhupāda: No. I am asking scientist. Svarūpa Dāmodara: First of all I did not believe astrology in the beginning. I thought it was a pseudo science. Prabhupāda: No, you may think, but what is the opinion of the scientist? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, scientists would say that there is no background. Prabhupāda: So how it so happens? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they say something which cannot be proved by experimental science, that does not work, calling science. Prabhupāda: So then how do you say that life is from matter? That cannot be proved by experiment. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they are going to prove it. They are trying to prove it. Prabhupāda: Then again, "going to prove." They cannot prove, they'll not not admit it. Sujit: See, astrology, I think, what he said is half true. Astrology is a science but it is not an exact science like mathematics and chemistry. Prabhupāda: No, No, it is mathematics. Astrology is simply based on mathematics. Exactly. Svarūpa Dāmodara: To calculate the planetary... Prabhupāda: Just see. The comet... Sujit: It is from astronomy. Prabhupāda: Astronomy, yes. Astrology is part of astronomy. Yes. Sujit: It's part of the science. It has been accepted as part of the science. Prabhupāda: No, it is... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Astrological science is mostly speculative theory. Prabhupāda: Astronomy also. Sujit: They are proving a lot of things. They are calculating when a certain star can be in certain positions. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, that can be done. Prabhupāda: So our astrology is calculated by the position of the stars. By astronomy you calculate the position of the star, and they know, "If the star is in such and such position, the result will be like this." That is astrology. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This looks like collecting some facts from some experience. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is calculated by the astral movement. It is a great science. People do not know it now. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Wolfe Prabhu was telling me that "So we don't believe in astrology, but when Śrīla Prabhupāda says, then you believe." Prabhupāda: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Wolfe, he was telling me that, because I was telling him that I did not believe in astrology. Then one day Śrīla Prabhupāda was talking on astrology. Then Wolfe said, "If Śrīla Prabhupāda said, then you believe. And if it is not said by Śrīla Prabhupāda, you don't believe." Prabhupāda: No. We believe in astrology. But because it is a difficult science, people do not understand it properly. That is another thing. In my practical life I see. In my horoscope, everything is written, what I am doing. Everything is written. So... Svarūpa Dāmodara: That would be called like genius. Sometimes. If somebody can predict what is going to happen in the future, can be, just like, taken... Prabhupāda: No, these astrologers can give everyone exact, the history of life, what is going to happen, what happened. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it is true, though Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our family life, when we want to do something, they always go to a... Prabhupāda: Astrologer. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then they... [break] (end) Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles Śrutakīrti: Morning Walk, December 30, 1973. [break] Prajāpati: In this morning's class you were giving us the example of the takeover of the kingship, of the brāhmaṇas getting rid of a bad king. So many times in the literature you've given us, whether Kṛṣṇa killing His uncle King Kaṁsa, or the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and Arjuna in the Battle of Kurukṣetra killing the old political regime that are demoniac consciousness. Is this the recommended means in Vedic literature for getting rid of bad government, or are there other means that are described, that one can get rid of demoniac government and take over with godly rulers? *Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose. So Subhash Chandra Bose was of opinion that-and that is a fact*-that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue." So for thirty years... He started from 1917 and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhash Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship. Then he though that "So long this man will live, there will be no independence." So he went out of India and joined with Hitler, and Tojo, Japanese. Nitāi: Who went out of India? *Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non*-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... [break] ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution? *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So without revolution, (indistinct), you cannot change old order. "Old orders changes giving place to new." That old order changes... Everywhere it is by violence. The *Mahābhārata* also, the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa was there. He tried to settle up. But it was not settled without violence. Paritrāṇāya... What is that? Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Kṛṣṇa also comes, vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, to, for killing the demons. Kṛṣṇa also comes. Nalinīkaṇṭha: [break] ...will be overthrown and replaced with God conscious beings. Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government should you try to change. Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something? Nalinīkaṇṭha: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? Because under democratic government, your order is not final. So if the people are demons, then what you will do? You cannot do anything. Therefore the people's mentality, consciousness, should be changed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When they become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will select Kṛṣṇa conscious president. Then everything finished. Formerly people used to accept the king as the final authority, but at this present moment, that is not accepted. People must accept. Now it is people's government. So unless people are God conscious, you cannot find good government. In comparison to other governments, your government is far better. People here (are) not starving. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, I have seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. In other governments the people are starving. They have no food. That is the worst government. First necessity of life, that one must eat, one must have shelter, but other governments cannot even do that. But in your country, you have got enough food, enough shelter, everything is there. That consideration, your government is very nice government. Bare necessities of life must be supplied. Here the fault is extravagancy. Nalinīkaṇṭha: Too much. Prabhupāda: Too much, yes. Luxury leads to poverty. Too much luxury. Now it will deteriorate. Nalinīkaṇṭha: I was reading in one of the books you translated that you said that as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, the mentality of all of the people in that area, they lose their desires for material enjoyment. Prabhupāda: No. Material enjoyment, you enjoy, but not like cats and dogs. You enjoy material life like human being. That is our proposal. Not like cats and dogs. Is it not enjoyment when you sit down in the Deity room and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read philosophy? It is not enjoyment? Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes, it is very nice. Prabhupāda: So this is human enjoyment. And to go to the brothel and drink and fight and talk all nonsense, is that enjoyment? Nalinīkaṇṭha: No. Prabhupāda: That is cats' and dogs' enjoyment. We must enjoy like human being. Enjoyment is not denied. Why should we deny? Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, but as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will more of a desire to live simply. *Prabhupāda: That is good for them. That is good for them. Because at the present moment they are missing the aim of life. That is the defect. They do not know what is the goal of life. They are thinking, "We are also cats and dogs." And that is the defect of the modern civilization. Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise this āhāra*-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense. (pause) So defense automatically, the small birds are taking. See. They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately, they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. (laughter) They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately. Devotee: Even while he's eating, he's still... Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows how to do it. Therefore I was explaining the other day, that for eating, for sleeping, for having sex intercourse and to defend, there is no use of education. Everyone knows automatically. But at the present moment, the whole education is on this point. Real education, what is life, what is goal of life, they do not know. This is the point. *Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the little children now, their favorite game is to play Śrīla Prabhupāda. They will make a vyāsāsana, the children, and one will play you and they'll sit on it and get a gong, and they'll have play cookies, and the other children will come and take the cookies. They play like that. Then they hold class. They have a Bhagavad*-gītā, and they'll chant oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. And then after that they will just make up, nu na boyl car, (as if chanting) like that. (Prabhupāda laughs) (pause) Prabhupāda: [break] ...where is their food? Immediately, just see. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: The food and the sand looks exactly the same. So how they are immediately able to tell which is which? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see their intelligence. You are very much proud of your intelligence. Just see their intelligence. Everyone is intelligent. Therefore actual intelligence is he who knows Kṛṣṇa. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He has got intelligence. You cannot deny that. But he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. You have got intelligence; you can understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you don't use your intelligence for understanding Kṛṣṇa, you are nothing but cats and dogs. Kṛpaṇa. They are called kṛpaṇas. Kṛpaṇa means miser. One has got money, but he does not know how to utilize it. He is called kṛpaṇa, miser. They are so rascal that they cannot conceive that there is something as God and He can be known. Hopeless. That is the real point. Otherwise why so many scientists are...? They know, "This is idea only. There is nothing like God. So let us put our theories." That's all. That is your business, theology. They are so rubbish. That was the first publication in (the Village) Voice paper. They wrote when I first began in 1965 that "We thought that God is dead, but Swamiji has brought God with kīrtana." They admitted this. I think the paper, you have got copy. You can see it. It said exactly like this, that "We thought God is dead, but here we see, Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought God in kīrtana." That's it. Child: Perfect... Prabhupāda: What is that? Child: Shells. Prabhupāda: What you will do? There is no pearl. Throw it. Wash your hand. Wash. Prabhupāda: Our men are still coming? Karandhara: Yes. (indistinct) Prajāpati: [break] ...current, popular for the last few score of years of western theology, called systematic theology, in which the various areas of religious or spiritual understanding were covered almost in category. They would take a certain phrase like "creation..." Prabhupāda: No, no. Some kind of speculation. Prajāpati: I am not talking about the content which is nonsense, but the form which expounds each area of thought by itself. Prabhupāda: Jurisdiction. Prajāpati: Yes. Karandhara: That's known as speculation. Prajāpati: But would it be a good proposition to present Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy in such a systematic way? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you do it. Do it. That is intelligence. Here is the only systematic way to understand God. You simply try to understand the first verse of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Then everything is explained there. Now you can... I have explained that, what is meant by God. God means the source of everything. Where is that theologician who can deny it? The first proposition is "God is that which is the source of everything." Now the next question will be, "What is that source, animate or inanimate?" Just like the scientists, they are claiming matter. This should be discussed. Then you come to the conclusion, "He must be animate." Then next question is "Wherefrom the animation came?" Then the conclusion should be that "He is self-sufficient. There is no need of cause." Then "Why people cannot understand?" That answer is that "Even great, great personality like Brahmā, Indra, they also bewildered." In this way, everything is there in that verse, systematical. Yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā. Now this material world is also creation of God, but it is shadow; *it is not reality. The reality is where there is no illusion, and that is spiritual kingdom. That is the place of God. Everything is there in that verse in the beginning. And then next verse is, the so*-called religions, they are kicked out from this Bhāgavatam. The religion is God is great and everyone should worship Him. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsara...[SB 1.1.2]. And it is meant for the first-class non-envious person. One who is envious, he will think, "Oh, why shall I worship God?" He cannot. One who is non-envious, he understands that "God is great always. I am always subordinate. Therefore I must worship." This is... In systematic way you discuss. "I must worship. Because I am dependent. I am not final authority. So the great... God is great, and I am always small. So it is my duty to submit to the great." So that is bhakti. So you can discuss in a systematic way. Bhāgavata is there. There is no difficulty. And it is said there, īśvaraḥ sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate: "By studying this literature, the God immediately becomes captured." Immediately becomes captured. These people are searching after God, but if one understands Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from the very beginning, rightly, immediately God is captured. Sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate, śuśrūṣubhiḥ, "Those who are seriously and inquisitive, for them." Tat-kṣaṇāt, "immediately." There is no need of taking time, that "So many years it will take." No, Tat-kṣaṇāt. These are stated in the Bhāgavata. Prajāpati: We have all the theology then. This is theology. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You present Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in true perspective. Then it will be perfection of your education. The so-called theologicians, they cannot understand God. It is not possible. That is not the way, that "I put my theory." He does not understand his value first, that "What is the value of my theory? If I am imperfect, so what is the value of my theory?" He does not understand the first principle, and he puts theory. Another rascal, he is putting theory. So what is the value of these theories? *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Actually they are simply selling their theories. Whoever will buy it, they are selling it to. *Prabhupāda: Another rascal is buying. We are not buying. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam, spotless knowledge, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Amalam. Amalam means without any spot. [break] ...of God is given in the dictionary, "Supreme Being." That is very nice. Everywhere we see that on the top there is a supreme being, just like in your state, the president. So why not this big government, a Supreme Being? Where is the difficulty? Without something supreme, controller, things cannot go nicely. Otherwise why you select a president? Why you select a supreme being and give him all power that "Your order will be final"? Why you do that? Because you want the government must go on nicely. Otherwise there is no need of electing a president. So supreme being must be there, in every management. So this big huge management, there must be Supreme Being. And that is God. Clear, simple understanding. How can you deny? The difficulty is that with our poor fund of knowledge, we cannot understand that how a Supreme Being, person, can create the sky, this huge water, the sun, moon. Because I am thinking, "God must be like me." A Dr. Frog. He is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean must be like this well." That is our defect. He cannot conceive that beyond this well there can be a vast great mass of water. He cannot conceive. So comparing his intelligence, he is thinking that "How it is possible that a person can create such a big sky, such big, huge...?" Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. This earth, so big, huge quantity of earthly planet. So not only one. Millions. And then water, then fire, then... He cannot conceive. He is thinking that "If there is God, He must be like me. So I cannot do this. Therefore there is no God." The same, "Yes. I close my eyes. Then there is no enemies." That's all. He should be intelligent. Just like we are here ten or twenty men. You accept that "He is our guru. He is most intelligent man." Similarly, somebody is more intelligent than me, somebody is more intelligent, more intelligent. Go on searching. Find out the final intelligent. That is comparative intelligence. That we know. But what is that final intelligence? That we must know. That is God. Just like the sun. If we think that beyond this sun there is no more planet, that is not correct. You cannot go beyond this sun. That is another thing. But all the planets are surrounding the sun. That everyone knows. So if there is a planet this down the sun, why not up the sun? It is common sense. This water is impersonal, but go down the water. You will find millions of persons, aquatics. Those who are seeing superficially on the surface, they have concluded, "Now finished, all personality finished. It is all vacant." That is poor fund of knowledge. Real knowledge is go deep into the water, you will find millions of creatures. They are living very nicely within the water. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayān... Even within the atom, you will find personality. Devotee: Is that personality within the atom Paramātmā? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Govinda. Devotee: When they release the atomic energy, where does that energy come from? *Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. He is the origin of everything. Don't you read Bhagavad*-gītā? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. The atomic energy is different from sarvasya? Sarvasya means everything. Everything comes from Him. The atomic energy must come from Him. Right conclusion. Devotee: I was wondering. They say they are splitting the atom, and Kṛṣṇa is living within the atom. When they divide the atom, there is so much energy released. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Because Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore you will find Kṛṣṇa's energy. Devotee: Is that more directly Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Directly, yes. You cannot even tolerate the atomic energy, and He has got reserved so many other energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Millions of energies Kṛṣṇa has got. This is one of the energies. You cannot tolerate it. Reservoir of all energies. Prajāpati: Today everybody is lamenting the energy crisis, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: There is no crisis. They have created the crisis, the rascals. Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we will have to cross over to here to get back. Prabhupāda: All right. Karandhara: Walk down here. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. They say, "Conservation of energy." So why there is crisis? Find out the reservoir and find out the energy. That is the scientific theory, "conservation of energy." Find out where the energy comes from. When it is finished, so I ask, "Just go to the kitchen. Find out some more to eat." So that is the source of energy. You find out the source of energy. Then there is no crisis. (laughter) But the rascals they do not know where the puri is being made. He is going to the privy. (laughter) "Might be puri here." That is their mistake. He does not know the puri is being supplied from the kitchen, not from the latrine. That is their mistake. Instead of going to the kitchen they are going to the latrine. Their advancement of knowledge is up to latrine. That's all. That is the Vedānta information. The conservation of energy if first explained in the Bhāgavata: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], that here is... [break] (end) Morning Walk -- December 31, 1973, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...theologician? Prajāpati: Here I am, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No theory? Prajāpati: Actually, I was concerned this morning about inflation. The government and the newspapers, they say the biggest problem today is inflation. From our Kṛṣṇa conscious standpoint, how can we cure this problem of inflation? Prabhupāda: It is very simple. Don't accept paper currency. It must be gold or some metal worth. Just like one dollar, it must be worth one dollar metal. Then it is solved. But they want to cheat. How it can be solved? Because if I pay you one dollar, I must pay you value for one dollar. But it is the cheating process is going on, "I pay you one dollar, a piece of paper. That's all." So you accept cheating, and I also cheat. Government allows. So how the problem can be solved? It is cheating. But the government allows it as law. And you accept, I accept. Then how they can be solved, solution? This is the solution. Prajāpati: In the economy itself there isn't actually enough money to, that's even in the banks... Prabhupāda: That is cheating. Therefore I say cheating. I have no money. I give you simply paper. I promise to pay hundred dollars. What is the use of that promise if I have no money? But you want to be cheated. I cheat you. That's all. You are satisfied of being cheated by me; so I take the advantage and I cheat you. I give you a paper. That's all. Bahulāśva: Real money is gold and silver. Prabhupāda: Any... It must be value. According to the market price, it must be value. Whatever it may be. Gold is taken, because gold is the most valuable metal. A small piece of gold, it can carry two hundred dollars. But if I give you iron, then you have to bring another, what is called, bus, to carry it. (laughter) So therefore gold standard is accepted everywhere. There is a standard price of gold, so when I pay you money, it must be, carry the value in gold. That's all. Then there is no inflation. The people want to be cheated, and people cheat. That's all. *Bahulāśva: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Prabhupāda, you say that Kali became gold standardized. *Prabhupāda: That is another point. That one who has gold, he can purchase these four kinds of sinful activities: meat*-eating, gambling, intoxication, illicit sex. If you have money, you can get illicit sex from big, big quarters. Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. The sinful activities have increased because the world has produced too much wealth. Because they can purchase sinful activities. And that is being increased by inflation. False money I have got, and with that false money I can purchase all this illicit sex, wine, intoxication, and... It is just like nowadays, bank is giving you a card, "Americard..." What is that? Karandhara: Charge card. Bank Americard. Prabhupāda: Ah. So you simply show the card, you get the goods. So to exchange, it has become very cheap. So cheaply you can purchase. Therefore cheaply you can purchase sinful things also. The people are becoming sinful. The modern economy is, "Engage people in hard working to produce, and by artificial cheating, secure the goods, commodities." This is modern economy. So a worker is getting three thousand dollar per month, but he is getting paper. But he is thinking that "I am getting money." He is giving his labor, and things are being produced. This is the policy. "Cheat him. Without giving money, give him paper, and get his labor, and produce goods." This is modern economy. Is it not? A laborer, a worker, is given high salary, high wages. So what he is getting? It is paper. And he is very enthusiastic to give his labor. So production is more. And when you go to purchase the products, then you have to pay again. Whatever you have earned, you have to pay everything, pay to the bank or pay to the man. Simply cheating process is going on. There is no solution. People are cheaters. They have been taught how to cheat. Everyone has got a cheating propensity. That is conditioned life. Four defects: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat and imperfectness of the senses. So cheating propensity everyone has got. So that cheating propensity is being encouraged more and more. Instead of minimizing it or stop it, it is being encouraged. Bahulāśva: So unless they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then there is no solution. *Prabhupāda: No. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good quality in human society unless accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the... This dog is thinking that we may not cheat him, from the back we may not attack him. Just see. Therefore he is stopping. *Bahulāśva: He doesn't know that you are the ever well*-wisher, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you are going to carry the message to the government? Prajāpati: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're working on a... Prabhupāda: That issue metal coin and the problem will be solved. But they will not take your advice. Prajāpati: This is part of our platform. To even run for political office, we need solutions to the problems to offer as a platform. We will draw up various bills, ready for legislation, show them that we are serious. Prabhupāda: So how you'll present it? The cheating process is going on. Unless you become God conscious, the cheating process will not stop. So there is no solution. Prajāpati: So therefore we introduce bill into the schools to introduce God consciousness to all the children there. Prabhupāda: Yes. God consciousness. Then everyone will be honest, and everything will be adjusted. Everyone can understand this is pure cheating. I give you a hundred dollars, a piece of paper. That's all. And you accept it. You want to be cheated. You thought, that "I have got now daily, hundred dollars. So let me work very hard." He does not consider that "I am not getting a hundred dollars. I am getting a piece of paper." So people have no brain to understand even. "This is not hundred dollars. Give me cash, hundred dollars." Then everything, solution will be... There will be no inflation. Because I know that paying you a piece of paper, I can cheat you, therefore I am printing notes, to cheat so many people. Therefore inflation. But when there will be no possibility to cheat you, then there will be no inflation. Here I have got the opportunity, because I know that pushing forward a piece of paper, I can cheat so many people. So there must be inflation. Is it not? This is not psychological? If I know that I can cheat you by this instrument, so why shall I not increase that? That is inflation. What do you think, Karandhara? Karandhara: That's the basic principle, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. I am cheating you, and people accepting my cheating. Karandhara: The governments actually started the whole thing. They instituted paper money and they instituted it because it is a cheating process. But everyone is participating. So it is just going on and on. That is the real cause of inflation. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it. They are getting encouragement in their cheating business. Bahulāśva: They won't let you have any gold. Prabhupāda: Now they have made law that you cannot store gold? Karandhara: That's been since 1933. Prabhupāda: Just see. Karandhara: Americans cannot own gold, store gold. Pretty soon they are going to pass the same law for silver. Prabhupāda: Just see. Even they cannot have ornaments. Karandhara: Well, you can have ornaments, jewelry. Prabhupāda: So by law they are cheating. So how you can stop? Karandhara: Now they have introduced a law that even the penny, which is the smallest denomination, it used to made out of copper, so now they are going to make it out of aluminium, because copper is too expensive. Prabhupāda: Just see. Bahulāśva: It will be worth less than a penny when it is made out of aluminium. Prabhupāda: Why not cement? (laughter) Because by law everything will be acceptable. Make it cement. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what can we do to curb down these rascals? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bahulāśva: That will curb them down. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be purified. The more you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they will be purified. This is... All problems are there on account of misunderstanding. What we are distributing? We are simply moving misunderstanding and bringing them to knowledge. This is our propaganda. So Mr. Theologician, is this suggestion appealing to you? Prajāpati: It seems all right for ordinary dealings, Śrīla Prabhupāda, having this money, what's going on, but for large scale transactions it might be very difficult. Prabhupāda: Huh? Prajāpati: And as the practical basis, transactions of thousands and thousands of dollars, would be... Prabhupāda: That will be good for the people. Because large scale transaction is there, therefore the capitalists hoarding. Capitalists hoarding. Goods are there, everything is there. You pay black price, you get it. Then, when somebody's hoarding, he is not giving to the market. So if the large scale industry and trade becomes stopped, that is good for people. Jagajjīvana: Does that mean the same amount of gold is here? Prabhupāda: No, larger scale... Suppose if you want to store, say, thousand kilos or a thousand bags of rice, so you have to pay me gold. But you have no such gold. Therefore large scale industry will be stopped. Just see. Karandhara: Then the price of rice would go very low. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you get actual price and actual value. Goods are there, any part of the world you..., there is enough commodity. But these rascals, they are hoarding, and they are not giving in right time. So people are suffering. Karandhara: Yes. There's a... They buy now. They buy the goods before they are even grown, from the commodity market. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they can pay in this paper, the bank will advance. So as soon as you... You have to introduce this metal coins, value. The whole cheating scheme will fail. Jagajjīvana: In the past there was a lot of gold on the planet. What has happened to it? There used to be a lot of gold on the planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. They used as utensil, as household pots. Just like now you are advanced, using plastic, because you have become very advanced. So you are using plastic. They were using gold. Jagajjīvana: So what has happened to that gold? Prabhupāda: What happened? If you keep utensil at home, what happens? You eat nicely on the plate. That's all. Why you are concerned, what happening? It is in your store. That's all. And gold is such a metal, any part of the country, any part of the world you go, you get immediately value. Karandhara: Yes. Whenever there is an economic depression, then gold remains valuable. Just like when the stock market crashed in 1929, if you had gold you could still purchase goods. No matter how bad the economy was, people would accept gold as barter, but not currency. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian economy was that if you have got extra money, you get gold ornament for your wife. So then your money is stocked there. Or purchase some utensils, silver utensils. That was Indian economy. This depositing in the bank and thinking that I am getting good interest, that is another cheating. It is another cheating. If things are not available, what will you get by getting interest? Therefore I am advising that purchase land and produce our own food. There will be no problem. Karandhara: The inflation rate is higher than the interest rate. If you earn 5 3/4 % interest in a year, the inflation has gone up 6% in a year. So actually your money, at best it's kept the same. Prabhupāda: The money is to be kept in cattle and grains. That is Indian economy, cattle and grains. If you have got many cows, you get milk. Milk preparation. And if you have got grain, then where is your problem? You prepare your foodstuff at home and eat and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is your problem? You want to eat and live peacefully. So if you have got grains and milk, you have got enough food and there is no problem. You haven't got to go fifty miles for your work, and then you require a tin car. So many problems. But if you get your food at home, then eat them and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. Simple thing. Prajāpati: So many people now employed in sinful activities, jobs that are to do with sinful life. If we get rid of these sinful activities, what will we find for these people to do to replace their jobs? Prabhupāda: Do pious activities. Do you mean to say we have to continue sinful activities for their job? (laughter) Prajāpati: They say like that. Prabhupāda: No, we shall give engagement. Prajāpati: Cattle industry, liquor industry, tobacco industry, all these big industries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be without industry. Come to us. We shall give them food. Yes. Just like that... What is that? Mṛgāri, Mṛgāri. He was thinking that "Unless I kill animals, how I will eat, I shall live?" And Nārada gave him, that "I will give you to eat. Come here." So he became Vaiṣṇava. So that is our propaganda." Stop this nonsense business. If you think that 'How you shall eat?' I shall give you eating. Come on. "This is our program." First of all you stop it. Then I will, see how I will give you." Just see. When I came first I was alone. I had no shelter, no food. And how we are maintaining now thousands of people, and giving them to eat, and nice shelter? How it is possible? It is possible. Because after all, Kṛṣṇa gives everything. So if they become Kṛṣṇized, everything will come. Why they bother about the sinful activities? Viṣṇujana: Dhanañjaya. Like you said this morning, Dhanañjaya. Prabhupāda: Yes, Dhanañjaya. Viṣṇujana: Kṛṣṇa will tell us where to... Prabhupāda: Yes, where to get money. We have solution for all problems. Don't bother. Go on with Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Do you think our solutions, all impractical? Prajāpati: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They are not impractical. Prabhupāda: Then, what do you think? Karandhara: They are the only practical solution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: The karmīs are always saying there is no solution. Prabhupāda: We say we have got solution. Bahulāśva: They don't want the solution, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. They want to be cheated. That's all. Bahulāśva: Just like now is the gasoline problem. Now the scientists want to use sun energy. They want to make a new energy, solar energy, from the sun. Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. *Bahulāśva: We were preaching in Mexico that "You simply perform the saṅkīrtana*-yajña and Kṛṣṇa will supply all energy." Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the source of all energy. Karandhara: Most economists, they realize that the economy is very faulty and superficial, but they say, "Well, that's the way it is. So I'm going to take advantage of it while I can." Prabhupāda: Why not take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and try it? As you are trying so many method, why not try this? Viṣṇujana: They say, "We want to regress and become like India." If everyone becomes devotees, then they'll all walk around like us and regress. Prabhupāda: There is no devotee in India, real devotee, at the present moment. Viṣṇujana: So they classify us like that. They say, "You Hare Kṛṣṇa people, you want to take us back to cholera and dysentery and everything." Prabhupāda: But you are already suffering from cancer. What you have done? (laughter) Instead of cholera, you have got cancer. Is that very good exchange? Viṣṇujana: One out of eight men has venereal disease. Prabhupāda: From frying pan to the fire. Cholera has got some remedy, but here there is no remedy. Hm? What is that? Viṣṇujana: In this country they have the venereal disease. One out of ten men is suffering gonorrhea. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Long ago one professor, medical professor, he said, he was Englishman*-that in our country, 75% students are suffering from venereal disease. Colonel Megor (?). Yes. Colonel Megor. There must be venereal disease because sex life is so cheap. There must be venereal disease. And venereal disease, once infected, it brings so many other diseases, one after another, one after another. The cancer is also due to that. Madness. Yes. And the Vedic civilization knew it. Therefore first restriction: sex. Brahmacārī. First beginning, brahmacārī. No sex life. You see? Just to save. This venereal disease is mentioned in the Āyur-veda. It is called phiraṅgāmaya. Phiraṅga means "white Europeans." It is diseased... And medical science also says that it was begun from dog. The girls, they have sex life with dog and there is the beginning of venereal disease. Viṣṇujana: Yes, from animal. Ass, dog, cow. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. So the girl becomes infected, and she distributes to all men who have sex life with... This is the beginning of sex life. And in Mexico I have heard that they regularly make theatrical demonstration, how a woman is getting sex with ass. Is it? Bahulāśva: Yes. That is in Tijuana. Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda told me. People have become so degraded. They make regular show, how sex life can be enjoyed with animals. Bahulāśva: That is abominable. South American Devotee: In South of Argentina, the soldiers, they have sex life with different animals. The army. When they are so long alone without..., and they have... Prabhupāda: The government allow? South American Devotee: Oh yeah. Prabhupāda: It is legal. Just see. Where it is? South American Devotee: South Argentina. Prabhupāda: Now, if you analyze the present human society, you will find there is not a single human being. All animals. All animals. Not a single human being. (Bengali) What is time now? Bahulāśva: Nine o'clock, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So let us go. [break] People, they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the difficulty. Viṣṇujana: Yes. From childhood they are taught sense gratification. Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not know that for sense gratification, enough facility is there in the animal kingdom. So if you want to give facility for sense gratification, does it mean that you want to become more than or less than animal? Not more than. Viṣṇujana: They want dog's life. They think dog's life is good life. They have to work hard and the dog stays at home all day and enjoys in their nice big house. So they think, "I would be better to be the dog." *Prabhupāda: So they have become. But when he becomes street dog? That means he has to depend on good master. Big apartment for dog means he belongs to the master. So he has to find out a good master. But if he fails to find out a good master, then he's street dog. Dog's life is good, provided he gets a good master. So therefore we have decided to become dog of Kṛṣṇa, (laughter) the best master. And the master says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "I will give you protection." So why not become dog of Kṛṣṇa? Prajāpati: He will be flea a on Kṛṣṇa's dog. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone will be fleas. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura, boliyā jānaha more. "O Vaiṣṇava, please accept me as your dog." Because to become Kṛṣṇa's dog, one has to become the dog of a Vaiṣṇava. Then he will be admitted as Kṛṣṇa's dog. Vaiṣṇava ṭhākura, tomāra kukura, boliyā jānaha more. *Boy passer*-by: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (yells out loudly) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Bahulāśva: Advancement. Prabhupāda: So why don't you answer them, "Yes, you become a dog, but you become a dog of a good master." What is the use of becoming dog of another dog? Then what profit will be there? Is it not? We are... Actually every one of us is dog. And we are trying to satisfy so many masters. The masters are our senses. We are already dog, everyone, because everyone is servant of the senses, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. So everyone is dog. Now he has to remain a dog, but by becoming dog of these senses, he is not happy. Find out a good master, and become a dog. You become happy. This is our philosophy. And the best master is Kṛṣṇa. We are also trying to be dog, but not of another dog, but real master. That is our philosophy. What is the use of becoming a dog of another dog? That is not proper. Here the material world is that "I am dog, I have got a master, and the master has got another master. He has got another master, he has got another master." Nobody can say that "I am Absolute." Nobody can say. That is not possible. You must have a master. Therefore everyone is a dog. So why don't you find out the Absolute master, the biggest master? And that is God. "God is great." Capture Him, master. Then you will be happy. That is intelligence. When one comes to his senses, that "I have served so many masters. Neither the master has become happy, neither I have become happy." That is frustration. Everyone. The master is not happy. You serve any master. Ask him, "Are you satisfied?" And, "What you have done, that I will be satisfied? You have to do so many things." So he is not satisfied, and you are not satisfied. Then to become dog of this ordinary master will never give us satisfaction. Always frustration. Just become the dog of the supreme master. You will be happy. Supreme master is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mahāprabhu. Prabhu means master. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name, Mahāprabhu, "the supreme master." Viṣṇujana: He is easily pleased. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. (end) Prabhupāda: The government export, then import . . . karne to deta nahi (. . . is not allowed.) Indian Man: Kidhar? (Where?) Prabhupāda: India me. (To India.) Indian Man: Nahi, India me nahi. Europe me. (No, not to India. They give permission for Europe.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Indian Man: Europe. Middle East. Prabhupāda: Yaha se purchase karte hai . . . Europe me apka office hai. (After purchasing from here . . . do you have an office in Europe?) Indian Man: Nahi. Client hai. (No. I have clients over there.) Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Next have sankirtan . *Have kīrtana . ( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) (Japanese translation throughout) The child is responsive. The child is responsive. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He was seeing this playing of mṛdaṅga . How old? Devotee: He's five months, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Five months. So these Japanese boys, they cannot understand English? *Devotee: No, but if you would like to say something, either Mahā*-guṇa or Vana can translate. They would like to hear you speak. *Prabhupāda: (devotee translating into Japanese throughout) When I was coming to this temple, I saw Japanese people are very industrious. Industrialism means, karma , and karma means, to work hard for the comfort of this body, but we are not this body, we are spirit soul within this body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). The real owner of the body is within this. So, so long our mind will be absorbed in the bodily concept of life, we have to accept another body after death. And to accept another body means great trouble. Just like this child, when he was within the womb of the mother for ten months, packed up . . . of course, by nature's arrangement one can live, but actually it is very troublesome. Then after coming out of the body, the child is helpless. He cannot express these troubles—sometimes cry. If mother is careful, takes care—otherwise he is in great trouble. Suppose some ant is biting, he cannot express; he cries simply, and mother also cannot detect why the child is crying. This is position. In this way, again growing up, no child wants to go to the school—he is forced to go to the school. Then when he is grown up, again family man to take responsibility of family. So the whole life is struggle for existence, then old age, so many disease, frustration, then again death. Again death means, again enter into the mother's womb, again packed up, again come out, and that is also not sure what kind of body he is going to get next. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies, and we can get any one of them. So this change of body is not very good job, but people do not know the science. They are ignorant of this transmigration of the soul, and they are working hard, dying, again taking birth—not as human being; maybe human being or more than human being, or cats and dogs, trees, there's so many. So this is our real problem. In ignorance, we accept one kind of body and stay for some time, again we are kicked out—no permanent situation. In this way, we are under threefold miserable conditions offered by the material nature. *So, people are not concerned about the solution of this problem, they are so foolish rascal. There is no education, there is no enlightenment about this transmigration of the soul from one body to another, and suffering, and they are thinking they are very happy. But from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand we can get relief from this repetition of birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): anyone who can understand Kṛṣṇa, the result will be na iti , "No more taking birth in the material world" mām eti , "He comes back to Me." So this is the solution. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people, how to make a solution of this repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. So why people are reluctant to take this movement very seriously? Any question? Hmm. You don't want to make a solution of this problem? Yes, they are . . . have become so dull, just like animals, they do not know what is the solution of the problem . . . (indistinct) *If a person, human being, does not take very seriously this problems of life, he is just like animal, go*-kharaḥ . Go means "cow," and kharaḥ means "ass." So those who are not interested, to make a solution of the problems of life, he is no better than an animal, go-kharaḥ . So this is a civilization of animal education—whole day working like ass. Ass is called mūḍhā . Mūḍhā , he works very hard, a big load of washerman's cloth is laden on his back, and he works, and the washerman gives little grass. He thinks, "He is giving me grass, therefore I must bear this load." He is such a fool that he does not know the grass is available anywhere, free of charges, but he thinks that, "This washerman is giving me grass," therefore he must have this load. Therefore ass is the most foolish animal. Amongst the animals, the most foolish animal. So we are trying to enlighten people to get them out from this foolish way of life. But, it is very difficult. Māyā is very strong. But still we have to try, because Kṛṣṇa Himself comes to enlighten people on this point, and we are supposed to be servant of Kṛṣṇa, so it is our duty to try to enlighten people. But people also should know the responsibility of human life, but they want to live like animals. So you want to live like this, or wish to go back to home, back to Godhead? Like animal, ass. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Boliye apka kya ray hai? Ap to Bharatiya hai. Ap ko to Bharatiya . . . Vedic knowledge to thoda malum hona chahiye. Ye jitne sab hai, wo itna parishram karte hai. To shastra kehte hai, ye sab gadhe hai. Aur hai bhi gadhe. Gadha ke jaisa parishram karte hai aur thoda do roti ke liye. Khane ke liye kutta bhedi ko bhi milta hai aur wo bhi wahi khate hai. Baki itna parishram karte hai aur apna jo manushya jivan ka jo kaam hai, wo kuch nahi hota. (So, what is your opinion? You are an Indian, you should have some knowledge of the *Vedas* . All these people work so hard. As per the scriptures, these people are like asses. And that is quite true. They work hard like donkeys for two pieces of bread which can be obtained so easily even by dogs and sheep. They toil so much that the real business of human life remains neglected forever.) So the Japanese boys, they have understood? Eh? You have understood? The difficulty is they cannot speak English, I cannot speak Japanese. (laughs) The difficulty is there. Anyway, you are supplying them prasādam . Go on doing that one day, they will also come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Ap log roj aate hai, nahi? (Do all of you come everyday or not?) Indian Man: Sunday. Prabhupāda: Sunday. Today is . . .? Devotee: Today is Tuesday. Prabhupāda: Tuesday. Apka kya bal baccha hai? Bal bacche . . . (Do you have any children? Children . . .) Indian Man: Bal bacche nahi . . . (I don't have children . . .) *Prabhupāda: Nahi. Apka patni, bhabhi? (None. Is she your wife or sister*-in-law?) Indian Man: Mere bhai ki . . . (My brother's . . .) Prabhupāda: India se aye hai? Kaha? (Has she come from India? Where?) Indian Lady: Nahi. Osaka me rehte hai. (No. I'm staying in Osaka.) Osaka. Devotee: Osaka is another city. Prabhupāda: Osaka. Oh. Osaka. Ap log Punjabi ho? (Do you belong to the Punjabi community?) Indian Lady: Nahi. Bhatia hai. (No. We are Bhatia.) Prabhupāda: Bhatia? Gujarati? Indian Lady: Karachi. Indian Man: Karachi. Prabhupāda: Karachi. Indian Lady: Sindhi Bhatia. Prabhupāda: Sindhi? Indian Lady: Abhi to hum Bombay me rehte hai. (Currently we are staying in Bombay.) Prabhupāda: Bombay me Sindhi bahut hai. (There are many Sindhis in Bombay.) Indian Lady: Ji. Humare Bhatia sab . . . Sripad Vallabhacharya hai na, unke marg ke hai. (Oh yes. All our Bhatia . . . you know Sripad Vallabhacharya, we are from that path.) Prabhupāda: Achha! Tab to ap log Vaishnav ho. (Great. Then you people are Vaiṣṇavas.) Indian Lady: Ji. Krishna ke hi puja me hai. (Yes. We are Vaiṣṇavas. We worship Lord Kṛṣṇa only.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tabhi to aate hai na. (That is the reason why you come here.) Indian Lady: Shrinathji jate hai. (We go to Srinathji as well.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Srinath Gopal ji jo hai wo hum log ka, Gaudiya Vaishnav. Wo Madhavendra Puri . . . wo apka ye jo Vallabhacharya, wo Vishnu Swami sampradaya. Vaishnav log char sampradaya hai. Hum log hai Madhva sampradaya. Wo Madhavendra Puri ko de diya. Wo Gopal ji humara sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya. (Okay. Srinath Gopal Ji belongs to our lineage, Gaudiya Vaiṣṇava. It was Madhavendra Puri . . . Vallabhacharya , from the disciplic succession of Visnu Swami. Vaishnavas have four disciplic lineages or sampradayas . Our's is Madhva sampradaya. Madhavendra Puri gave it to him. So Gopal Ji was from our sampradaya , Gaudiya sampradaya .) *Indian Lady: Chote Gopal ji, Srinath ji ke paas me. (The small Gopal Ji who is kept near Srinath*-ji.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Nahi, wo Nathdwara, wo to bada Gopal. (No, the big Gopal Ji in Nathdwara.) Indian Lady: Nahi. Chote. Srimad Vallabhacharya jinki puja karte the na. (No. The small one whom Srimad Vallabhacharya used to worship.) Prabhupāda: Oh! Wo wala. (That one.) Indian Lady: Unka chota Gopal tha. (He had a small Deity of Gopal.) Prabhupāda: Wo wala. (That one. Bal Gopal.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Aur ye Nathdwara me jo Gopal ji hai, wo to bada Gopal hai. (And the Gopal Ji in Nathdwara is the bigger one.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Wo Gopal ji Bhagavan Krishna ka jo pota, Bajra . . . unki pratisthit. Phir kuch kuch din baad, kuch gadbad hua to mandir tut gaya tha, Gopal ji jangal me kahi. Phir sapna dete hai, Madhavendra Puri se phir uthaya aur mandir sthapan kiya Govardhan me. Aur unke antim kal me ye Vallabhacharya ko de diya. Wahi Nathdwara. (The Gopal Ji of Nathdwara was installed by Vajranabh, the grandson of Lord Krsna. A few days later, there was some trouble and the temple was destroyed. Gopal Ji was lying in a jungle. Madhavendra Puri, after having a dream, again rescued Gopal from there and installed Him in a temple at Govardhan. And in the final days of his life he had given it to Vallabhacharya. That is Nathdwara.) Indian Lady: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Ap log kitne hai sab Bharatiya idhar? (How many Indians are here all together?) Indian Man: Japan me? Karib teen char hazar. (In Japan? Around three to four thousand.) Prabhupāda: Char hazar. Kaise idhar to koi Bhagavan ka mandir hai hi nahi. (Four thousand? But there is no temple of the Lord anywhere.) Indian Man: Tokyo me nahi hai lekin Osaka, Kobe me hai. (There is no temple in Tokyo but in Kobe and Osaka, temples are there.) Prabhupāda: Kobe me hai? (Is there a temple in Kobe?) Indian Man: Kobe me hai. Gurudwara hai aur Ramakrishna mission ka bhi . . . (Yes, a temple is there in Kobe. Gurudwara is there and Ramkrishna mission also . . .) Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian Man: Ramkrishna mission. Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna mission kya hai? (laughter) Nastik hai. (It does not matter much, Ramkrishna mission (laughter). They are atheists.) Indian Man: Bas wahi do hai. (Only those two are there.) Prabhupāda: Wo to Hindu hi hai nahi. Ye log to Hindu hi hai nahi, Vaishnav to . . . Hindu ka baat nahi hai. Wo Krishna bhakt nahi hai. Idhar ek Krishna Bhagavan ka mandir banao. (These people are not even Hindus, forget about being a Vaiṣṇava. It is not a question of being Hindu. They are not devotees of Lord Krsna. So, build a temple here for the Supreme Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa.) Indian Lady: Wo to Devi ke upasaka hai, Ramakrishna mission. (They are worshippers of the Goddess, the Ramkrishna mission.) *Prabhupāda: Devi ke ho, Devata ho, jo bhi ho, Bhagavan ka hona chahiye. (You may be followers of different demigods and demi*-goddesses but we should be followers of the Supreme Lord.) Indian lady: Ji ha. (Yes.) *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission na Devi ka, na Deva ka, wo apna pet ka hai bas. Sab kuch khate hai, sab kuch pite hai. (Ramakrishna Mission people are neither followers of any demigod or demi*-goddess, they are followers of their stomach. They eat everything, drink everything.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ye Hindu dharma ka nash kar rahe hai. (They are destroying the Hindu religion.) Indian Lady: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Ap log idhar sab vaishnav banaiye. (You make everyone into a Vaiṣṇava here.) Indian Lady: Hum bhi to vaishnav hai. (We all are Vaiṣṇavas.) Prabhupāda: Ha. Ye log janam se sab mamsa khane wala hai. (Yes. These people were meat eaters by birth.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes Sir.) Prabhupāda: Lekin sab chodh diya. Janam se. Sharab chodh diya, nasha bhang chodh diya, cha bhi nahi pite. Hum log bidi, cigarette, chay kuch nahi. Ap to jante hai. Sab jante hai, sari duniya. Aur wo sab khate hai, mamsa, machli, chay, bidi, sharab aur sab bhi, wo kehne ko nahi kuch, sab kuch. Bada jabardast Ramakrishna mission chalate hai. Kya ap log nahi jante? (But now they have given up completely. Since their birth . . . they have left drinking alcohol, any type of intoxicants and even tea. We don't take tobacco, cigarettes, tea . . . nothing. You know this. Everyone knows this all over the world. But they consume everything - meat, fish, tea, tobacco, alcohol and what not. Not even mentionable, everything. What great work they are doing, this Ramakrishna Mission! Didn't you know about this?) Indian Man: Jante hai. (We knew.) Indian Lady: Jante hai. (We knew.) Prabhupāda: Sab koi jante hai. So . . . (Everyone knows this. So . . .) Indian Lady: Lekin kya ye bachpan se wo log aisa life ji rahe hai . . . (But the thing is since childhood they are following such a lifestyle so . . .) Prabhupāda: Kya life me hai, mamsa machli khate hai, kya life? (laughter) Mussulman ka life. Mamsa machli khane wala uska kya life hai. (What lifestyle is this, eating meat and fish, what type of life is this? (laughter) The life of muslims. What life can a person have who eats meat and fish?) Kadaryo bhakhhon kore. (One eats so many dirty things.) A bengali poet . . . nana yoni bhraman kare, Kadaryo bhakhhan kare. Ye mamsa machli khane se kadaryo chiz hai . . . ye log khate nahi. Pashu ka hai to. Ye admi ka nahi. Isko humare shastra me yavana kehte hai. Rakshas kehte hai. Mamsa machli . . . mamsa kaun khata hai, wo kutta khata hai, sher, tiger . . . ye sab jungli log khate hai. Usse kya fayda milega. Tiger ka sharir bada mazboot hota hai. Usse manushya samaj ko kya fayda hoga. Aur ye jo gai hai, wo to mamsa machli nahi khati, uska dudh bina kaam hi nahi chalega. Usko to kat daal te hai. Kya kiya jaye? (One wanders through all the species and eats abominable things. This eating of meat and fish is kadaryo , a dirty thing. Humans do not eat such things. It is for animals, not for human beings. Such people are called yavanas in our scriptures. They are termed as rakshasas . Meat and fish . . . who eats meat? The dogs, lions, tigers . . . all uncivilized men eat such things. What benefit will they get? The tiger's body is very strong. But what benefit can human society have from that? And you see the cow is there, she doesn't eat fish or meat but without her milk, we cannot continue. Now, they are slaughtering her. What can be done?) Indian Lady: Humare jo vaishnav sampradaya ke hai, to abhi abhi jo bhi bahar gaye, sab ne khana shuru kar diya. (In our Vaiṣṇava sampradaya at present, those who are living outside, they have all started eating meat.) Prabhupāda: To ho gaya. Jahannum me jayega, aur kya? (laughter) Jahannum me gaya, aur kya? Vaishnav kya . . . sabhi hum London me dekha, jitna Bharatiya hai sab mamsa khate hai. Aur go mamsa bhi khate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ye uchit nahi hai. Bhagavan ka prasad . . . idhar ap log prasad khate hai kya? (Then it's over. They will go to hell, what to do. (laughter) They are destined to go to hell. And all the Vaiṣṇavas . . . I have seen in London, all the Indians have started eating meat. They are even eating beef . . . (indistinct) . . . this should not have been done. Prasadam of the Lord . . . do you take prasadam here?) Indian Lady: Ha, ha. Hum kuch bhi nahi khate. Pyaz, lehsun, kuch nahi. (Yes, yes. We don't take anything, no onion, no garlic . . . nothing.) Prabhupāda: Thik. (That's right.) Indian Lady: Anda bhi nahi. Kuch nahi. Pyaz bhi nahi khate. Humare ghar ke mard pite bhi nahi hai wo to . . . cigarette wagera (laughter) . . . (We don't eat eggs either. Nothing, not even onions. The men in our family don't even smoke cigarettes etc. (laughter) . . .) So have kīrtana once more. Ap kitne din yaha rahenge? (How many days will you be staying here?) Prabhupāda: Kal chale jayenge. (I will go tomorrow.) Indian Lady: Kal jayenge . . . (Oh you will go tomorrow . . .) *( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) Prabhupāda: Bahut bhagyavan baccha hai ye. (This child is very fortunate.) Indian Lady: Ha. Kaise . . . (Yes. How he was . . .) Prabhupāda: Shuru se nachna . . . (He began dancing from the very beginning . . .) Indian Lady: . . . nachna shuru karta hai (. . . began to dance.) (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: (devotees offer obeisances) So there is prasādam for everyone. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Prabhupāda: The government export, then import . . . karne to deta nahi (. . . is not allowed.) Indian Man: Kidhar? (Where?) Prabhupāda: India me. (To India.) Indian Man: Nahi, India me nahi. Europe me. (No, not to India. They give permission for Europe.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Indian Man: Europe. Middle East. Prabhupāda: Yaha se purchase karte hai . . . Europe me apka office hai. (After purchasing from here . . . do you have an office in Europe?) Indian Man: Nahi. Client hai. (No. I have clients over there.) Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Next have sankirtan . *Have kīrtana . ( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) (Japanese translation throughout) The child is responsive. The child is responsive. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He was seeing this playing of mṛdaṅga . How old? Devotee: He's five months, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Five months. So these Japanese boys, they cannot understand English? *Devotee: No, but if you would like to say something, either Mahā*-guṇa or Vana can translate. They would like to hear you speak. *Prabhupāda: (devotee translating into Japanese throughout) When I was coming to this temple, I saw Japanese people are very industrious. Industrialism means, karma , and karma means, to work hard for the comfort of this body, but we are not this body, we are spirit soul within this body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). The real owner of the body is within this. So, so long our mind will be absorbed in the bodily concept of life, we have to accept another body after death. And to accept another body means great trouble. Just like this child, when he was within the womb of the mother for ten months, packed up . . . of course, by nature's arrangement one can live, but actually it is very troublesome. Then after coming out of the body, the child is helpless. He cannot express these troubles—sometimes cry. If mother is careful, takes care—otherwise he is in great trouble. Suppose some ant is biting, he cannot express; he cries simply, and mother also cannot detect why the child is crying. This is position. In this way, again growing up, no child wants to go to the school—he is forced to go to the school. Then when he is grown up, again family man to take responsibility of family. So the whole life is struggle for existence, then old age, so many disease, frustration, then again death. Again death means, again enter into the mother's womb, again packed up, again come out, and that is also not sure what kind of body he is going to get next. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies, and we can get any one of them. So this change of body is not very good job, but people do not know the science. They are ignorant of this transmigration of the soul, and they are working hard, dying, again taking birth—not as human being; maybe human being or more than human being, or cats and dogs, trees, there's so many. So this is our real problem. In ignorance, we accept one kind of body and stay for some time, again we are kicked out—no permanent situation. In this way, we are under threefold miserable conditions offered by the material nature. *So, people are not concerned about the solution of this problem, they are so foolish rascal. There is no education, there is no enlightenment about this transmigration of the soul from one body to another, and suffering, and they are thinking they are very happy. But from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand we can get relief from this repetition of birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): anyone who can understand Kṛṣṇa, the result will be na iti , "No more taking birth in the material world" mām eti , "He comes back to Me." So this is the solution. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people, how to make a solution of this repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. So why people are reluctant to take this movement very seriously? Any question? Hmm. You don't want to make a solution of this problem? Yes, they are . . . have become so dull, just like animals, they do not know what is the solution of the problem . . . (indistinct) *If a person, human being, does not take very seriously this problems of life, he is just like animal, go*-kharaḥ . Go means "cow," and kharaḥ means "ass." So those who are not interested, to make a solution of the problems of life, he is no better than an animal, go-kharaḥ . So this is a civilization of animal education—whole day working like ass. Ass is called mūḍhā . Mūḍhā , he works very hard, a big load of washerman's cloth is laden on his back, and he works, and the washerman gives little grass. He thinks, "He is giving me grass, therefore I must bear this load." He is such a fool that he does not know the grass is available anywhere, free of charges, but he thinks that, "This washerman is giving me grass," therefore he must have this load. Therefore ass is the most foolish animal. Amongst the animals, the most foolish animal. So we are trying to enlighten people to get them out from this foolish way of life. But, it is very difficult. Māyā is very strong. But still we have to try, because Kṛṣṇa Himself comes to enlighten people on this point, and we are supposed to be servant of Kṛṣṇa, so it is our duty to try to enlighten people. But people also should know the responsibility of human life, but they want to live like animals. So you want to live like this, or wish to go back to home, back to Godhead? Like animal, ass. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Boliye apka kya ray hai? Ap to Bharatiya hai. Ap ko to Bharatiya . . . Vedic knowledge to thoda malum hona chahiye. Ye jitne sab hai, wo itna parishram karte hai. To shastra kehte hai, ye sab gadhe hai. Aur hai bhi gadhe. Gadha ke jaisa parishram karte hai aur thoda do roti ke liye. Khane ke liye kutta bhedi ko bhi milta hai aur wo bhi wahi khate hai. Baki itna parishram karte hai aur apna jo manushya jivan ka jo kaam hai, wo kuch nahi hota. (So, what is your opinion? You are an Indian, you should have some knowledge of the *Vedas* . All these people work so hard. As per the scriptures, these people are like asses. And that is quite true. They work hard like donkeys for two pieces of bread which can be obtained so easily even by dogs and sheep. They toil so much that the real business of human life remains neglected forever.) So the Japanese boys, they have understood? Eh? You have understood? The difficulty is they cannot speak English, I cannot speak Japanese. (laughs) The difficulty is there. Anyway, you are supplying them prasādam . Go on doing that one day, they will also come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Ap log roj aate hai, nahi? (Do all of you come everyday or not?) Indian Man: Sunday. Prabhupāda: Sunday. Today is . . .? Devotee: Today is Tuesday. Prabhupāda: Tuesday. Apka kya bal baccha hai? Bal bacche . . . (Do you have any children? Children . . .) Indian Man: Bal bacche nahi . . . (I don't have children . . .) *Prabhupāda: Nahi. Apka patni, bhabhi? (None. Is she your wife or sister*-in-law?) Indian Man: Mere bhai ki . . . (My brother's . . .) Prabhupāda: India se aye hai? Kaha? (Has she come from India? Where?) Indian Lady: Nahi. Osaka me rehte hai. (No. I'm staying in Osaka.) Osaka. Devotee: Osaka is another city. Prabhupāda: Osaka. Oh. Osaka. Ap log Punjabi ho? (Do you belong to the Punjabi community?) Indian Lady: Nahi. Bhatia hai. (No. We are Bhatia.) Prabhupāda: Bhatia? Gujarati? Indian Lady: Karachi. Indian Man: Karachi. Prabhupāda: Karachi. Indian Lady: Sindhi Bhatia. Prabhupāda: Sindhi? Indian Lady: Abhi to hum Bombay me rehte hai. (Currently we are staying in Bombay.) Prabhupāda: Bombay me Sindhi bahut hai. (There are many Sindhis in Bombay.) Indian Lady: Ji. Humare Bhatia sab . . . Sripad Vallabhacharya hai na, unke marg ke hai. (Oh yes. All our Bhatia . . . you know Sripad Vallabhacharya, we are from that path.) Prabhupāda: Achha! Tab to ap log Vaishnav ho. (Great. Then you people are Vaiṣṇavas.) Indian Lady: Ji. Krishna ke hi puja me hai. (Yes. We are Vaiṣṇavas. We worship Lord Kṛṣṇa only.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tabhi to aate hai na. (That is the reason why you come here.) Indian Lady: Shrinathji jate hai. (We go to Srinathji as well.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Srinath Gopal ji jo hai wo hum log ka, Gaudiya Vaishnav. Wo Madhavendra Puri . . . wo apka ye jo Vallabhacharya, wo Vishnu Swami sampradaya. Vaishnav log char sampradaya hai. Hum log hai Madhva sampradaya. Wo Madhavendra Puri ko de diya. Wo Gopal ji humara sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya. (Okay. Srinath Gopal Ji belongs to our lineage, Gaudiya Vaiṣṇava. It was Madhavendra Puri . . . Vallabhacharya , from the disciplic succession of Visnu Swami. Vaishnavas have four disciplic lineages or sampradayas . Our's is Madhva sampradaya. Madhavendra Puri gave it to him. So Gopal Ji was from our sampradaya , Gaudiya sampradaya .) *Indian Lady: Chote Gopal ji, Srinath ji ke paas me. (The small Gopal Ji who is kept near Srinath*-ji.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Nahi, wo Nathdwara, wo to bada Gopal. (No, the big Gopal Ji in Nathdwara.) Indian Lady: Nahi. Chote. Srimad Vallabhacharya jinki puja karte the na. (No. The small one whom Srimad Vallabhacharya used to worship.) Prabhupāda: Oh! Wo wala. (That one.) Indian Lady: Unka chota Gopal tha. (He had a small Deity of Gopal.) Prabhupāda: Wo wala. (That one. Bal Gopal.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Aur ye Nathdwara me jo Gopal ji hai, wo to bada Gopal hai. (And the Gopal Ji in Nathdwara is the bigger one.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Wo Gopal ji Bhagavan Krishna ka jo pota, Bajra . . . unki pratisthit. Phir kuch kuch din baad, kuch gadbad hua to mandir tut gaya tha, Gopal ji jangal me kahi. Phir sapna dete hai, Madhavendra Puri se phir uthaya aur mandir sthapan kiya Govardhan me. Aur unke antim kal me ye Vallabhacharya ko de diya. Wahi Nathdwara. (The Gopal Ji of Nathdwara was installed by Vajranabh, the grandson of Lord Krsna. A few days later, there was some trouble and the temple was destroyed. Gopal Ji was lying in a jungle. Madhavendra Puri, after having a dream, again rescued Gopal from there and installed Him in a temple at Govardhan. And in the final days of his life he had given it to Vallabhacharya. That is Nathdwara.) Indian Lady: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Ap log kitne hai sab Bharatiya idhar? (How many Indians are here all together?) Indian Man: Japan me? Karib teen char hazar. (In Japan? Around three to four thousand.) Prabhupāda: Char hazar. Kaise idhar to koi Bhagavan ka mandir hai hi nahi. (Four thousand? But there is no temple of the Lord anywhere.) Indian Man: Tokyo me nahi hai lekin Osaka, Kobe me hai. (There is no temple in Tokyo but in Kobe and Osaka, temples are there.) Prabhupāda: Kobe me hai? (Is there a temple in Kobe?) Indian Man: Kobe me hai. Gurudwara hai aur Ramakrishna mission ka bhi . . . (Yes, a temple is there in Kobe. Gurudwara is there and Ramkrishna mission also . . .) Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian Man: Ramkrishna mission. Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna mission kya hai? (laughter) Nastik hai. (It does not matter much, Ramkrishna mission (laughter). They are atheists.) Indian Man: Bas wahi do hai. (Only those two are there.) Prabhupāda: Wo to Hindu hi hai nahi. Ye log to Hindu hi hai nahi, Vaishnav to . . . Hindu ka baat nahi hai. Wo Krishna bhakt nahi hai. Idhar ek Krishna Bhagavan ka mandir banao. (These people are not even Hindus, forget about being a Vaiṣṇava. It is not a question of being Hindu. They are not devotees of Lord Krsna. So, build a temple here for the Supreme Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa.) Indian Lady: Wo to Devi ke upasaka hai, Ramakrishna mission. (They are worshippers of the Goddess, the Ramkrishna mission.) *Prabhupāda: Devi ke ho, Devata ho, jo bhi ho, Bhagavan ka hona chahiye. (You may be followers of different demigods and demi*-goddesses but we should be followers of the Supreme Lord.) Indian lady: Ji ha. (Yes.) *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission na Devi ka, na Deva ka, wo apna pet ka hai bas. Sab kuch khate hai, sab kuch pite hai. (Ramakrishna Mission people are neither followers of any demigod or demi*-goddess, they are followers of their stomach. They eat everything, drink everything.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ye Hindu dharma ka nash kar rahe hai. (They are destroying the Hindu religion.) Indian Lady: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Ap log idhar sab vaishnav banaiye. (You make everyone into a Vaiṣṇava here.) Indian Lady: Hum bhi to vaishnav hai. (We all are Vaiṣṇavas.) Prabhupāda: Ha. Ye log janam se sab mamsa khane wala hai. (Yes. These people were meat eaters by birth.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes Sir.) Prabhupāda: Lekin sab chodh diya. Janam se. Sharab chodh diya, nasha bhang chodh diya, cha bhi nahi pite. Hum log bidi, cigarette, chay kuch nahi. Ap to jante hai. Sab jante hai, sari duniya. Aur wo sab khate hai, mamsa, machli, chay, bidi, sharab aur sab bhi, wo kehne ko nahi kuch, sab kuch. Bada jabardast Ramakrishna mission chalate hai. Kya ap log nahi jante? (But now they have given up completely. Since their birth . . . they have left drinking alcohol, any type of intoxicants and even tea. We don't take tobacco, cigarettes, tea . . . nothing. You know this. Everyone knows this all over the world. But they consume everything - meat, fish, tea, tobacco, alcohol and what not. Not even mentionable, everything. What great work they are doing, this Ramakrishna Mission! Didn't you know about this?) Indian Man: Jante hai. (We knew.) Indian Lady: Jante hai. (We knew.) Prabhupāda: Sab koi jante hai. So . . . (Everyone knows this. So . . .) Indian Lady: Lekin kya ye bachpan se wo log aisa life ji rahe hai . . . (But the thing is since childhood they are following such a lifestyle so . . .) Prabhupāda: Kya life me hai, mamsa machli khate hai, kya life? (laughter) Mussulman ka life. Mamsa machli khane wala uska kya life hai. (What lifestyle is this, eating meat and fish, what type of life is this? (laughter) The life of muslims. What life can a person have who eats meat and fish?) Kadaryo bhakhhon kore. (One eats so many dirty things.) A bengali poet . . . nana yoni bhraman kare, Kadaryo bhakhhan kare. Ye mamsa machli khane se kadaryo chiz hai . . . ye log khate nahi. Pashu ka hai to. Ye admi ka nahi. Isko humare shastra me yavana kehte hai. Rakshas kehte hai. Mamsa machli . . . mamsa kaun khata hai, wo kutta khata hai, sher, tiger . . . ye sab jungli log khate hai. Usse kya fayda milega. Tiger ka sharir bada mazboot hota hai. Usse manushya samaj ko kya fayda hoga. Aur ye jo gai hai, wo to mamsa machli nahi khati, uska dudh bina kaam hi nahi chalega. Usko to kat daal te hai. Kya kiya jaye? (One wanders through all the species and eats abominable things. This eating of meat and fish is kadaryo , a dirty thing. Humans do not eat such things. It is for animals, not for human beings. Such people are called yavanas in our scriptures. They are termed as rakshasas . Meat and fish . . . who eats meat? The dogs, lions, tigers . . . all uncivilized men eat such things. What benefit will they get? The tiger's body is very strong. But what benefit can human society have from that? And you see the cow is there, she doesn't eat fish or meat but without her milk, we cannot continue. Now, they are slaughtering her. What can be done?) Indian Lady: Humare jo vaishnav sampradaya ke hai, to abhi abhi jo bhi bahar gaye, sab ne khana shuru kar diya. (In our Vaiṣṇava sampradaya at present, those who are living outside, they have all started eating meat.) Prabhupāda: To ho gaya. Jahannum me jayega, aur kya? (laughter) Jahannum me gaya, aur kya? Vaishnav kya . . . sabhi hum London me dekha, jitna Bharatiya hai sab mamsa khate hai. Aur go mamsa bhi khate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ye uchit nahi hai. Bhagavan ka prasad . . . idhar ap log prasad khate hai kya? (Then it's over. They will go to hell, what to do. (laughter) They are destined to go to hell. And all the Vaiṣṇavas . . . I have seen in London, all the Indians have started eating meat. They are even eating beef . . . (indistinct) . . . this should not have been done. Prasadam of the Lord . . . do you take prasadam here?) Indian Lady: Ha, ha. Hum kuch bhi nahi khate. Pyaz, lehsun, kuch nahi. (Yes, yes. We don't take anything, no onion, no garlic . . . nothing.) Prabhupāda: Thik. (That's right.) Indian Lady: Anda bhi nahi. Kuch nahi. Pyaz bhi nahi khate. Humare ghar ke mard pite bhi nahi hai wo to . . . cigarette wagera (laughter) . . . (We don't eat eggs either. Nothing, not even onions. The men in our family don't even smoke cigarettes etc. (laughter) . . .) So have kīrtana once more. Ap kitne din yaha rahenge? (How many days will you be staying here?) Prabhupāda: Kal chale jayenge. (I will go tomorrow.) Indian Lady: Kal jayenge . . . (Oh you will go tomorrow . . .) *( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) Prabhupāda: Bahut bhagyavan baccha hai ye. (This child is very fortunate.) Indian Lady: Ha. Kaise . . . (Yes. How he was . . .) Prabhupāda: Shuru se nachna . . . (He began dancing from the very beginning . . .) Indian Lady: . . . nachna shuru karta hai (. . . began to dance.) (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: (devotees offer obeisances) So there is prasādam for everyone. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Devotee: According to him, he hasn't disobeyed the regulative principles of eating meat, intoxication, sex life. But he has some fantasyland in his mind, which he tries to live in. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him, to talk. Devotee: All right. Sañjaya! (break) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so you have to learn so many things. Don't confuse yourself as authority. Then you will be misled. Therefore one has to accept a guru , just to give him direct. Anything, any field of activity, if one is know . . . ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad). One who is being directed by ācārya , he knows things. Not a vagabond. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . Why one goes to college, school? Just to follow the instruction of the teacher, and then he becomes educated. This is the general method. Anything you want to learn, you have to approach a person who knows the thing. Whimsically, if you create something in your mind, that is a madman's theory. The Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to, if we are going to learn the supreme science, science of God . . . in ordinary life, if we want to learn how to typewrite, I have to go to a typewriting school and to put this finger that way, put this finger that way. We have to learn in that way. And if we are going to learn Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, you don't require anyone's help, "Let us do anything whimsically, that is all right." It is simply ludicrous, that's all. *That has spoiled the whole spiritual life of the present humanity. Everyone manufactures his own way. There is no . . . if you learn to typewriting, you have to learn systematically: this finger here, this finger . . . not that this finger there, this finger there. That is nonsense. You cannot do anything whimsically. This is nonsense. You have to learn systematically, scientifically. Then you are actually learned in that subject matter. And that is the Vedic injunction: tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ . Do you read Bhagavad-gītā ? No. You don't require to read anything; you have perfect devotion. This is spoiled. Human life is so valuable, and in this life you can realize God, you can make solution of all your problems. And if you do whimsically and spoil your life, then the valuable, duration of life, this is not very good thing. If you manufacture, "This man is better devotee," how do you know he's a better devotee? You do not know. This is not the way. If you want to be educated, you must admit yourself as a student in a school, then in a college, then in a university. And if you say: "No, no. I don't care for anything. I know everything. This is best school; *this is better school," what is this? A teacher who has refused training of the spiritual master, how he can become a teacher? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ ( BG 4.2). Our only request is not that we are canvassing, "Come to our camp." No. You must know the science, that is all. How to become devotee, you must know it scientifically. That is all. Otherwise you go to anyone who is there—there are so many other—but because you are interested, so you must know the science. Don't do it whimsically. That will be spoiling it. That is all. If you say that one is better devotee, then you must explain who is a devotee. First of all this: you must know who is a devotee. And then, according to the advancement of devotional life, one is superior, inferior. Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? Prabhupāda: Huh? Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? I take from you, but you are not always present. Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to know whether you should be benefited, or whether one is bona fide teacher. First of all you have to know. What is your question? How you are to know? Sañjaya: Who to take instruction from, at given moments, given times. Satsvarūpa: Aside from you—he wants to follow you—but if you're not here, who should he follow? Prabhupāda: I've got so many books. All my instructions are there. Sañjaya: But I read the books with my mind, and I misinterpret. Prabhupāda: Then those who are following me, you go to them that, "I am understanding like this. Is it all right?" *Sañjaya: But Siddha*-svarūpa group was following you, and they were reading and interpreting. So I turned to them and asked questions. *Prabhupāda: But the thing is, Siddha*-svarūpa, how he can interpret that he reads my book and he gives up my company? Is it very good interpretation? Sañjaya: I never knew he gave up your company. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sañjaya: I thought he was still your devotee. *Prabhupāda: No. They have given me up, you see. Of course, Siddha*-svarūpa, I do not know. He is not so fool. But these people, they are in Hawaii—Gaurasundara, and this Sudāmā Vipra—they do not come to see me. What I've done? Eh? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). When you have accepted somebody as a spiritual master . . . if you have given up spiritual master, that is a different thing. But if you accept somebody as spiritual master, you must come and offer your obeisances and respect. That is the first principle. They did not come to me. I remained there how many days? Satsvarūpa: Two weeks. Prabhupāda: Two weeks. I called them also, immediately. What Gaurasundara said? That I can come to him? Like that. Satsvarūpa: They wanted you to visit their place. Prabhupāda: You see? Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah? Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you. Prabhupāda: Something? Sañjaya: Something nice, on their property, or their place, for you. Prabhupāda: Oh. So something nice, therefore you can call your spiritual master, "Come here," as you call your dog? Is that very good sign? Sañjaya: No, it is not good sign. Prabhupāda: Anyone who will manufacture his own way of devotion, he is a rascal. It is not possible. Sañjaya: So they are manufacturing their own way of devotion now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Their keeping long hairs, karmi ? Yes. And what do they say? "There is no need of living in the temple. There is . . ." What is the . . . just like you also said like that: "There is no need of living in the temple." What did he say? "It is better to live in the railway station"? Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: Huh? Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: In the railway station also there is rules and regulation. When the train comes: rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang . Why? Why you get up? "Oh, train is coming." Everywhere you go there are rules and regulation. You cannot find any place without rules and regulation. There is no possibility to escape rules and regulation. If you break the ordinary health rules, immediately you will become sick. You cannot transgress the rules and regulation of material nature. Immediately you become sick, and you'll have to suffer. So there is no such thing as to transgress rules and regulation. You have to. If you challenge, that is your foolishness. Anywhere you go, you have to follow the rules and regulation. If you don't follow, then you will have to suffer. Is it not? Anywhere you go. Anywhere, where you go, you'll have to live under the rules and regulation of material nature. That you cannot escape. So where you'll go, either you go to Japan or you go to America or anywhere you go, the principles of rules and regulation and nature is the same. Can you break the rules and regulations—sometimes they say: "Keep to the right, keep to the left"? That is not possible. If you want to drive your car on the street, you must follow the rules. Can you transgress the red light and yellow light? No. Where is the possibility of becoming independent? Is there any possibility? Anywhere you go. Sañjaya: No, there is always some law or some rule and regulation. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. So how you'll avoid that? And above all, just like you are a nice young boy, so you have to follow the rules and regulation to become an old man like me. Can you avoid? Sañjaya: No way around it. Prabhupāda: Then where is the possibility of breaking rules and regulation? If you don't follow, you'll be forced to follow. That is criminality. When you are forced to follow, that is criminality. And if you voluntarily follow, that is civility. You cannot avoid. There is no such chance. The rules and regulation, nature's law: One has to take birth, to come to the material world, through the agency of father and mother. That father and mother may be human being or cats and dogs or anyone, but this is the rule. Through the father and mother you have to come. Can anyone avoid that, that "Without father and mother I will come"? (laughter) So the beginning of your life there are rules and regulation. Huh? Similarly, as soon as you become old, natural death. It is not that . . . that you can avoid death. You must die—today or tomorrow or a hundred years after. You must die. "As sure as death." Then? Can you avoid the rules and regulation? You cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your birth; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your death; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of falling sick; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your becoming old. You have to follow. But at heart we have got a tendency to think like that, that "How I can avoid these rules and regulation?" That tendency's there. That is possible when you are liberated. So long you are under the rules and regulation of the material nature, you cannot avoid. But when you're liberated from the clutches of māyā , then you can avoid. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: how to become liberated from these rules and regulation. Within the jail you cannot break rules and regulation. You must follow. If you don't follow, then you'll be more punished. So when one is liberated from the jail, he is free. Similarly, so long we get this material body, we have to follow the rules and regulations of material laws. We cannot avoid. If you don't follow, you'll be more punished. Just like a human being—he's given the chance, a better form of life than the other animals. But if he does not follow the rules and regulation of a human being, he'll again going to cat and dog. Can you avoid it? Then? Sañjaya: The rule and regulation for the human being is to learn to love God? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only business of human being. *That is first*-class occupational duty: how to learn to love God. Sañjaya: And we can only learn through a bona fide spiritual master? Through the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is the representative of God. So if you cannot love your spiritual master, how you can love God? If you love me, you love my dog. Suppose you love somebody, and in his presence you kick his dog. Will he be pleased? Sañjaya: He will not. *Prabhupāda: He will immediately, "You rascal, you don't come here. Get out!" Therefore it is common saying: "If you love me, love my dog, first." So if you love God's dog, then God automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (ŚrīŚrī Gurv-aṣṭaka). If he is pleased, then God automatically is pleased—even if you're wrong. This is the way. These boys, they are doing that. I am an Indian; I've come from foreign country. I did not bring any riches for them, or bribe them. Why they are following? Out of love. Sañjaya: That's why I am following you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But if you live alone in the railway station, how you can follow? Huh? Just like a boy and girl, love—"Yes, you live three thousand miles away, and I live three thousand miles away, and still we love." What is that love? Love, there are six symptoms: These symptoms of love means one must give and take. One must disclose his mind and take instruction. One must give him to eat, and one must take something from him to eat. These are the six symptoms of love. Give and take. Just like you have given me this flower, so you have given. So if I instructed, "You take it," that is give and take. If I offer you prasādam , you should bring some foodstuff. You should disclose your mind, and you should say that, "This is my problem; you should hear me." This is a symptom of love. Everything is there. So our only request is that our business is we are in this old age traveling four times in a year. What is material benefit out of it? I am old man. I cannot move. I am eighty years, and two years less. Naturally this is not the age for traveling, retirement. But why I am traveling? Because I wanted to satisfy my Guru Mahārāja. That is the only reason. I wanted to satisfy the desire of my Guru Mahārāja, the desire of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And therefore at night I don't sleep; *I dictate. I publish this book. I go from country to country, village to village, town to town. And they also reciprocate, these boys. They're helping me, how to publish these book, these boys. That boy is editing twenty*-four hours; he is typing. Do I pay them anything? Sañjaya: Not material. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is love. "I go away from Guru Mahārāja and live four hundred miles away, and I love Guru Mahārāja." This is not . . . nonsense. You show some symptoms of love, that, "My Guru Mahārāja wants to do this. Oh, I must help him." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted, prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, everywhere must there be—I mean to say—broadcasting My missionary activities." So my Guru Mahārāja attempted that. Everyone should attempt. Anyone who is followers . . . just like any, any religion, any system. Just like a Christian, if he is real Christian, if he is actually following Lord Jesus Christ, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." He must propagate, "You shall not kill." But where is that Christian who is propagating? They are killing. On the other hand they are killing. Is that a good Christian? Sañjaya: They are not following, so they are not good. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . you see. It is clearly said in the first commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." So every Christian, they must preach this cult. That is Christian. And he's helping killing, and he's a Christian? Similarly, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, you must preach this cult." That is really devotee, one who is doing this. He may not be very successful preacher; *that doesn't matter. Because he is doing that, he is first*-class devotee. Anywhere you go, that is real love. That is real follower. What his predecessor has ordered, that must be done. At any risk. It doesn't matter whether it is being nicely done or not nicely done—because he is attempting to do that, that is sufficient. That very attempt will make him successful. This is the principle. You see? Uh, we must . . . vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Unfortunately, you do not read. What for we are publishing so many books, for the enlightenment of the people? Find this verse. Nitai: Gita , second chapter. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many*-branched." Prabhupāda: Yes. "Who are irresolute." Now, our only resolution was that, "Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Let me try it." And with resolute purpose, I tried it. And therefore, I do not know, but people say that I have done very wonderful. People say that. Even in our countrymen, those who are not very favorably disposed to, they also admit that I have done something wonderful. But what is the secret of this success? That resolution that, "My Guru Mahārāja wanted this. I shall try my best to do this," that's all. I have no other secrets. Rather, I was doubtful that, "What I have got position, how people will understand? Still, let me try my best," that's all. Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do? Prabhupāda: Ah? Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do? Prabhupāda: That I have already advised. Where is Bhanu? Devotee: He is busy with the Deities now. Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Japan . . . why Japan? Anywhere. This is, at the present moment, the whole civilization is demonic. Whole civilization. The demons, they will not very much inclined to hear about philosophy. They are not inclined. There is a Bengali saying, churā na mane ghar me kayi . Suppose a man is thief, and if you instruct him good lessons, "My dear man, you are stealing. It is not very good. You are doing, so you'll have to suffer misery," does he care for it? Does he care? "Oh, you rascal, go on talking—I shall do my own business." So churā na , he is a churā , he's a thief. You give him good philosophy, he will not hear. Then, how to cure him? That is given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu: *Give him chance to hear this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Chant yourself, either by this karatāla and drums. If it is prohibited, then distribute books. This is also chanting, just like we recite it. Somehow or other, let him hear something about us. This is chanting, śravanaṁ. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), through chant and hear. If he's not chanting, let him hear. If he's not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you chant; let him hear. That will cure. So that is the way. So in Japan or anywhere, everyone is demon. These wonderful things . . . and we're thinking the material advancement. Suppose this Dictaphone . . . this Dictaphone is all right, so long it is used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The 747 airplane is very good, so long it carries devotees for preaching work. This is the philosophy. *Everything must be . . . so we do not hate anything, because we know that everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if that thing is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is perfect. That is perfect. We are using everything—the electricity, the Dictaphone, the table—but we are not using it for sense gratification. Every moment we are engaged. Avyartha*-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18), that is higher advance that, "This time I have passed, what I have done for Kṛṣṇa?" This is character of advancement, "What I have done for Kṛṣṇa? What I have done for my Guru Mahārāja?" If in this way we lead our life, that is perfect. That is perfect. "Guru Mahārāja has entrusted me with this business. How far I have done this?" that is perfect. *So if you don't care for your Guru Mahārāja, don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and you do whimsically what you like, that is not progress. That is degradation. These are the formula: avyartha . . . nāma*-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32), avyartha-kālatvaṁ, prītis tad-vasati-sthale (CC Madhya 23.19). The advanced devotee will feel like this, "How I shall live in a temple or in a place like Vṛndāvana and Mathurā, prītis tad-vasati-sthale ?" Prīti means love—to live there, where Kṛṣṇa's devotee is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa's temple is there. Not in the railway station. Prītis tad-vasati-sthale. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci , always hankering after, "How I can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra ?" Nāma-gāne sadā. Avyartha-kālatvaṁ , to scrutinizely seeing whether I have wasted my time without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things are the symptoms of advanced devotee. You cannot say: "Oh, he's advanced." What he's doing for Kṛṣṇa? First of all think, "He's advanced devotee; *that is all right. But what is he doing for his guru ? What is he doing for his . . . Kṛṣṇa?" That is a test. If somebody is doing something whimsically, he is not advanced devotee. He may speak all nonsense, but that is not advancement. You have to see practically: what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa, what is he's doing for his spiritual master. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). These are the process. So you are a very nice boy, I see. Everyone has got potency, but you have got a special inclination. So my request is that don't spoil your life. Life is very valuable. You do not imagine, concoct something, and follow. That will not help. You must follow the standard rules and regulations, standard way. Then you will be successful. Don't do anything whimsically. That will not help. That is our request. Sañjaya: Thank you. Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, now generally we have Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam class. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, want me? Devotee: Please. Prabhupāda: Alright, let us go? (end) Devotee: According to him, he hasn't disobeyed the regulative principles of eating meat, intoxication, sex life. But he has some fantasyland in his mind, which he tries to live in. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him, to talk. Devotee: All right. Sañjaya! (break) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so you have to learn so many things. Don't confuse yourself as authority. Then you will be misled. Therefore one has to accept a guru , just to give him direct. Anything, any field of activity, if one is know . . . ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad). One who is being directed by ācārya , he knows things. Not a vagabond. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . Why one goes to college, school? Just to follow the instruction of the teacher, and then he becomes educated. This is the general method. Anything you want to learn, you have to approach a person who knows the thing. Whimsically, if you create something in your mind, that is a madman's theory. The Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to, if we are going to learn the supreme science, science of God . . . in ordinary life, if we want to learn how to typewrite, I have to go to a typewriting school and to put this finger that way, put this finger that way. We have to learn in that way. And if we are going to learn Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, you don't require anyone's help, "Let us do anything whimsically, that is all right." It is simply ludicrous, that's all. *That has spoiled the whole spiritual life of the present humanity. Everyone manufactures his own way. There is no . . . if you learn to typewriting, you have to learn systematically: this finger here, this finger . . . not that this finger there, this finger there. That is nonsense. You cannot do anything whimsically. This is nonsense. You have to learn systematically, scientifically. Then you are actually learned in that subject matter. And that is the Vedic injunction: tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ . Do you read Bhagavad-gītā ? No. You don't require to read anything; you have perfect devotion. This is spoiled. Human life is so valuable, and in this life you can realize God, you can make solution of all your problems. And if you do whimsically and spoil your life, then the valuable, duration of life, this is not very good thing. If you manufacture, "This man is better devotee," how do you know he's a better devotee? You do not know. This is not the way. If you want to be educated, you must admit yourself as a student in a school, then in a college, then in a university. And if you say: "No, no. I don't care for anything. I know everything. This is best school; *this is better school," what is this? A teacher who has refused training of the spiritual master, how he can become a teacher? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ ( BG 4.2). Our only request is not that we are canvassing, "Come to our camp." No. You must know the science, that is all. How to become devotee, you must know it scientifically. That is all. Otherwise you go to anyone who is there—there are so many other—but because you are interested, so you must know the science. Don't do it whimsically. That will be spoiling it. That is all. If you say that one is better devotee, then you must explain who is a devotee. First of all this: you must know who is a devotee. And then, according to the advancement of devotional life, one is superior, inferior. Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? Prabhupāda: Huh? Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? I take from you, but you are not always present. Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to know whether you should be benefited, or whether one is bona fide teacher. First of all you have to know. What is your question? How you are to know? Sañjaya: Who to take instruction from, at given moments, given times. Satsvarūpa: Aside from you—he wants to follow you—but if you're not here, who should he follow? Prabhupāda: I've got so many books. All my instructions are there. Sañjaya: But I read the books with my mind, and I misinterpret. Prabhupāda: Then those who are following me, you go to them that, "I am understanding like this. Is it all right?" *Sañjaya: But Siddha*-svarūpa group was following you, and they were reading and interpreting. So I turned to them and asked questions. *Prabhupāda: But the thing is, Siddha*-svarūpa, how he can interpret that he reads my book and he gives up my company? Is it very good interpretation? Sañjaya: I never knew he gave up your company. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sañjaya: I thought he was still your devotee. *Prabhupāda: No. They have given me up, you see. Of course, Siddha*-svarūpa, I do not know. He is not so fool. But these people, they are in Hawaii—Gaurasundara, and this Sudāmā Vipra—they do not come to see me. What I've done? Eh? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). When you have accepted somebody as a spiritual master . . . if you have given up spiritual master, that is a different thing. But if you accept somebody as spiritual master, you must come and offer your obeisances and respect. That is the first principle. They did not come to me. I remained there how many days? Satsvarūpa: Two weeks. Prabhupāda: Two weeks. I called them also, immediately. What Gaurasundara said? That I can come to him? Like that. Satsvarūpa: They wanted you to visit their place. Prabhupāda: You see? Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah? Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you. Prabhupāda: Something? Sañjaya: Something nice, on their property, or their place, for you. Prabhupāda: Oh. So something nice, therefore you can call your spiritual master, "Come here," as you call your dog? Is that very good sign? Sañjaya: No, it is not good sign. Prabhupāda: Anyone who will manufacture his own way of devotion, he is a rascal. It is not possible. Sañjaya: So they are manufacturing their own way of devotion now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Their keeping long hairs, karmi ? Yes. And what do they say? "There is no need of living in the temple. There is . . ." What is the . . . just like you also said like that: "There is no need of living in the temple." What did he say? "It is better to live in the railway station"? Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: Huh? Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: In the railway station also there is rules and regulation. When the train comes: rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang . Why? Why you get up? "Oh, train is coming." Everywhere you go there are rules and regulation. You cannot find any place without rules and regulation. There is no possibility to escape rules and regulation. If you break the ordinary health rules, immediately you will become sick. You cannot transgress the rules and regulation of material nature. Immediately you become sick, and you'll have to suffer. So there is no such thing as to transgress rules and regulation. You have to. If you challenge, that is your foolishness. Anywhere you go, you have to follow the rules and regulation. If you don't follow, then you will have to suffer. Is it not? Anywhere you go. Anywhere, where you go, you'll have to live under the rules and regulation of material nature. That you cannot escape. So where you'll go, either you go to Japan or you go to America or anywhere you go, the principles of rules and regulation and nature is the same. Can you break the rules and regulations—sometimes they say: "Keep to the right, keep to the left"? That is not possible. If you want to drive your car on the street, you must follow the rules. Can you transgress the red light and yellow light? No. Where is the possibility of becoming independent? Is there any possibility? Anywhere you go. Sañjaya: No, there is always some law or some rule and regulation. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. So how you'll avoid that? And above all, just like you are a nice young boy, so you have to follow the rules and regulation to become an old man like me. Can you avoid? Sañjaya: No way around it. Prabhupāda: Then where is the possibility of breaking rules and regulation? If you don't follow, you'll be forced to follow. That is criminality. When you are forced to follow, that is criminality. And if you voluntarily follow, that is civility. You cannot avoid. There is no such chance. The rules and regulation, nature's law: One has to take birth, to come to the material world, through the agency of father and mother. That father and mother may be human being or cats and dogs or anyone, but this is the rule. Through the father and mother you have to come. Can anyone avoid that, that "Without father and mother I will come"? (laughter) So the beginning of your life there are rules and regulation. Huh? Similarly, as soon as you become old, natural death. It is not that . . . that you can avoid death. You must die—today or tomorrow or a hundred years after. You must die. "As sure as death." Then? Can you avoid the rules and regulation? You cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your birth; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your death; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of falling sick; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your becoming old. You have to follow. But at heart we have got a tendency to think like that, that "How I can avoid these rules and regulation?" That tendency's there. That is possible when you are liberated. So long you are under the rules and regulation of the material nature, you cannot avoid. But when you're liberated from the clutches of māyā , then you can avoid. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: how to become liberated from these rules and regulation. Within the jail you cannot break rules and regulation. You must follow. If you don't follow, then you'll be more punished. So when one is liberated from the jail, he is free. Similarly, so long we get this material body, we have to follow the rules and regulations of material laws. We cannot avoid. If you don't follow, you'll be more punished. Just like a human being—he's given the chance, a better form of life than the other animals. But if he does not follow the rules and regulation of a human being, he'll again going to cat and dog. Can you avoid it? Then? Sañjaya: The rule and regulation for the human being is to learn to love God? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only business of human being. *That is first*-class occupational duty: how to learn to love God. Sañjaya: And we can only learn through a bona fide spiritual master? Through the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is the representative of God. So if you cannot love your spiritual master, how you can love God? If you love me, you love my dog. Suppose you love somebody, and in his presence you kick his dog. Will he be pleased? Sañjaya: He will not. *Prabhupāda: He will immediately, "You rascal, you don't come here. Get out!" Therefore it is common saying: "If you love me, love my dog, first." So if you love God's dog, then God automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (ŚrīŚrī Gurv-aṣṭaka). If he is pleased, then God automatically is pleased—even if you're wrong. This is the way. These boys, they are doing that. I am an Indian; I've come from foreign country. I did not bring any riches for them, or bribe them. Why they are following? Out of love. Sañjaya: That's why I am following you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But if you live alone in the railway station, how you can follow? Huh? Just like a boy and girl, love—"Yes, you live three thousand miles away, and I live three thousand miles away, and still we love." What is that love? Love, there are six symptoms: These symptoms of love means one must give and take. One must disclose his mind and take instruction. One must give him to eat, and one must take something from him to eat. These are the six symptoms of love. Give and take. Just like you have given me this flower, so you have given. So if I instructed, "You take it," that is give and take. If I offer you prasādam , you should bring some foodstuff. You should disclose your mind, and you should say that, "This is my problem; you should hear me." This is a symptom of love. Everything is there. So our only request is that our business is we are in this old age traveling four times in a year. What is material benefit out of it? I am old man. I cannot move. I am eighty years, and two years less. Naturally this is not the age for traveling, retirement. But why I am traveling? Because I wanted to satisfy my Guru Mahārāja. That is the only reason. I wanted to satisfy the desire of my Guru Mahārāja, the desire of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And therefore at night I don't sleep; *I dictate. I publish this book. I go from country to country, village to village, town to town. And they also reciprocate, these boys. They're helping me, how to publish these book, these boys. That boy is editing twenty*-four hours; he is typing. Do I pay them anything? Sañjaya: Not material. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is love. "I go away from Guru Mahārāja and live four hundred miles away, and I love Guru Mahārāja." This is not . . . nonsense. You show some symptoms of love, that, "My Guru Mahārāja wants to do this. Oh, I must help him." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted, prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, everywhere must there be—I mean to say—broadcasting My missionary activities." So my Guru Mahārāja attempted that. Everyone should attempt. Anyone who is followers . . . just like any, any religion, any system. Just like a Christian, if he is real Christian, if he is actually following Lord Jesus Christ, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." He must propagate, "You shall not kill." But where is that Christian who is propagating? They are killing. On the other hand they are killing. Is that a good Christian? Sañjaya: They are not following, so they are not good. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . you see. It is clearly said in the first commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." So every Christian, they must preach this cult. That is Christian. And he's helping killing, and he's a Christian? Similarly, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, you must preach this cult." That is really devotee, one who is doing this. He may not be very successful preacher; *that doesn't matter. Because he is doing that, he is first*-class devotee. Anywhere you go, that is real love. That is real follower. What his predecessor has ordered, that must be done. At any risk. It doesn't matter whether it is being nicely done or not nicely done—because he is attempting to do that, that is sufficient. That very attempt will make him successful. This is the principle. You see? Uh, we must . . . vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Unfortunately, you do not read. What for we are publishing so many books, for the enlightenment of the people? Find this verse. Nitai: Gita , second chapter. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many*-branched." Prabhupāda: Yes. "Who are irresolute." Now, our only resolution was that, "Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Let me try it." And with resolute purpose, I tried it. And therefore, I do not know, but people say that I have done very wonderful. People say that. Even in our countrymen, those who are not very favorably disposed to, they also admit that I have done something wonderful. But what is the secret of this success? That resolution that, "My Guru Mahārāja wanted this. I shall try my best to do this," that's all. I have no other secrets. Rather, I was doubtful that, "What I have got position, how people will understand? Still, let me try my best," that's all. Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do? Prabhupāda: Ah? Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do? Prabhupāda: That I have already advised. Where is Bhanu? Devotee: He is busy with the Deities now. Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Japan . . . why Japan? Anywhere. This is, at the present moment, the whole civilization is demonic. Whole civilization. The demons, they will not very much inclined to hear about philosophy. They are not inclined. There is a Bengali saying, churā na mane ghar me kayi . Suppose a man is thief, and if you instruct him good lessons, "My dear man, you are stealing. It is not very good. You are doing, so you'll have to suffer misery," does he care for it? Does he care? "Oh, you rascal, go on talking—I shall do my own business." So churā na , he is a churā , he's a thief. You give him good philosophy, he will not hear. Then, how to cure him? That is given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu: *Give him chance to hear this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Chant yourself, either by this karatāla and drums. If it is prohibited, then distribute books. This is also chanting, just like we recite it. Somehow or other, let him hear something about us. This is chanting, śravanaṁ. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), through chant and hear. If he's not chanting, let him hear. If he's not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you chant; let him hear. That will cure. So that is the way. So in Japan or anywhere, everyone is demon. These wonderful things . . . and we're thinking the material advancement. Suppose this Dictaphone . . . this Dictaphone is all right, so long it is used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The 747 airplane is very good, so long it carries devotees for preaching work. This is the philosophy. *Everything must be . . . so we do not hate anything, because we know that everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if that thing is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is perfect. That is perfect. We are using everything—the electricity, the Dictaphone, the table—but we are not using it for sense gratification. Every moment we are engaged. Avyartha*-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18), that is higher advance that, "This time I have passed, what I have done for Kṛṣṇa?" This is character of advancement, "What I have done for Kṛṣṇa? What I have done for my Guru Mahārāja?" If in this way we lead our life, that is perfect. That is perfect. "Guru Mahārāja has entrusted me with this business. How far I have done this?" that is perfect. *So if you don't care for your Guru Mahārāja, don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and you do whimsically what you like, that is not progress. That is degradation. These are the formula: avyartha . . . nāma*-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32), avyartha-kālatvaṁ, prītis tad-vasati-sthale (CC Madhya 23.19). The advanced devotee will feel like this, "How I shall live in a temple or in a place like Vṛndāvana and Mathurā, prītis tad-vasati-sthale ?" Prīti means love—to live there, where Kṛṣṇa's devotee is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa's temple is there. Not in the railway station. Prītis tad-vasati-sthale. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci , always hankering after, "How I can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra ?" Nāma-gāne sadā. Avyartha-kālatvaṁ , to scrutinizely seeing whether I have wasted my time without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things are the symptoms of advanced devotee. You cannot say: "Oh, he's advanced." What he's doing for Kṛṣṇa? First of all think, "He's advanced devotee; *that is all right. But what is he doing for his guru ? What is he doing for his . . . Kṛṣṇa?" That is a test. If somebody is doing something whimsically, he is not advanced devotee. He may speak all nonsense, but that is not advancement. You have to see practically: what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa, what is he's doing for his spiritual master. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). These are the process. So you are a very nice boy, I see. Everyone has got potency, but you have got a special inclination. So my request is that don't spoil your life. Life is very valuable. You do not imagine, concoct something, and follow. That will not help. You must follow the standard rules and regulations, standard way. Then you will be successful. Don't do anything whimsically. That will not help. That is our request. Sañjaya: Thank you. Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, now generally we have Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam class. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, want me? Devotee: Please. Prabhupāda: Alright, let us go? (end) *Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's son*-in-law, they came to see me. Gurudāsa: Any service for me? Prabhupāda: What you are doing there now? Gurudāsa: Um, I've just been talking with Saurabha about the Māyāpur plans to present at this conference in Vancouver, acquisition. We're making a presentation there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: So we're getting that together. Tomorrow I'm leaving. Prabhupāda: For Vancouver? *Gurudāsa: No, I'm go . . . tomorrow I'm going to join Bhavānanda for a week, Bhavānanda Swami. Then I go to Delhi to see . . . and I'm also going to Bhuvaneśvara for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Then I'm going to Delhi to see that American Ambassador again about putting our name on the food list, Indo*-American food list, then Vṛndāvana, then Vancouver. Prabhupāda: So gradually there will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go where? Gurudāsa: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Delhi to New York? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then go to the Western . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: New York then . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: I think it is direct. That I can do. Indian man: America chala jayega. (Went to America.) Prabhupāda: Idhar baithiye. Akele aya aap toh? (Sit here. You all came alone?) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhiye kaise ye log sab prachaar kar rahe hai. (Just see how this boy is preaching.) Indian man: Humare un karovar ke liye jaane ka vichaar tha wo toh kab jan jan ka sajjan hai. (I was thinking of going there for business purposes, but that will be after the business is established well, then we will see.) Prabhupāda: Kya? (What?) Indian man: In relation with our business also, I am thinking of going. Prabhupāda: No business. (laughter) Don't go. Business is this hari kīrtana . Dekho ye log business sab jaante hai. Toh unse business kaun karega? (Just see, they know how to do business very well but who will do business with them?) Guest (1): Anyway, kind of you. I just said that I had thought of that in my own different way also. Prabhupāda: Business is bad. Gurudāsa: People carry on business for happiness and enough to eat and enough clothing. That, no separate endeavor is necessary. Kṛṣṇa gives it all, and more happiness. We can attest to that because we did business. All of us were businessmen. Prabhupāda: Humara ye sab prchar me kam se kam daily dus hazaaar aadmi ekhathe hote hai. Koi humara . . . (In our preaching program about ten thousand people attend everyday. Our nothing is) . . . Guest (1): . . . koi kam nahi karta hai. (indistinct) . . . (Nothing falls short. The Lord only gives.) Prabhupāda: Hum aise hi rehte hai. (indistinct) . . . (They stay here like this, they are all well educated people) . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, I see that are . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): No, I am not leaving. Whether Kṛṣṇa gives me fifty rupees or five million rupees, it does not make much difference, because I am in the line, because I am in the line. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest (1): I may leave any time. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Guest (1): I may leave any time also. Prabhupāda: That is our purpose to do something. Guest (1): Unfortunately some things happened, and some court matters are going on. Prabhupāda: Court? Guest (1): Court matters, some, some lawsuits, etc., which I have filed which aggregate to the extent of about crore rupees or so. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest (1): Oh, I mean I'll get that much. That could be as good amount as you file . . . Prabhupāda: Where? Where? Your claim? Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You have to . . . you have to pay so much stamping fee. Guest (1): No. The maximum stamp duty to be paid is fifteen thousand. Even if you've got a claim of fifteen crores , fifteen thousand is the maximum stamp duty you have to pay. You don't have to pay more. Prabhupāda: Fifteen thousand you have to pay? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Anartheno nyaya rohita . . . in this age, Kali. Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . he owes me money, and I couldn't get my money back from him. *Prabhupāda: If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming after all it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then . . . vaqil (. . . lawyer) so on, so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali*-yuga. Anartheno nyaya rohita. Nyay milega hi nahi (You will not get justice) . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some spaces, but even then you have to field yourself two times . . . (indistinct) . . . and remain in the . . . I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego . . . (indistinct) . . . what you're saying is hundred percent true. It's like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. And nowadays bribe also. Guest (1): Yeah. This is a must. *Prabhupāda: Fourth*-class, śūdra . . . (indistinct) . . . bribe. Guest (1): It is concerning one of the partners. . . . (indistinct) . . . another partner. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . they demand it as a bribe also. Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . your partner like that? *Gurudāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali*-yuga. Guest (1): One thing is there: When I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get . . . Prabhupāda: If you're getting . . . Guest (1): I am liberated that very day. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Gurudāsa: Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat. Guest (1): Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to . . . I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things. Gurudāsa: Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced. Guest (1): Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the . . . *Gurudāsa: Advanced means such*-and-such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. I don't go. (break) . . . Prabhupada from 1923 to '37 Guest (2): We have got an appointment. We have got . . . (break) Guest (3): . . . somewhere. Saturday they close at . . . by 3 or 3:30, so I want to go before that. Prabhupāda: You can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty. Prasadam be ready by half past twelve, one (laughter) Guest (3): No, why bother? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva duḥkhānāṁ . (laughter) Guest (3): Hānir asyopajāyate. *Prabhupāda: I can tell you one practical. So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye ( SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod—Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal, the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is overflood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their . . . the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas , that is there. *Indra , there is indragop , one very small insect. It is also called indra, indragop , insect. And another Indra is the King of heaven. So śāstra says from this Indra to that indra , everyone is bound up by his karma . It includes all others, from this indra to that Indra. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Everyone is bound up by the resultant action of his karma . It cannot be changed. *So śāstra says don't try to change your karma*-phala . Better utilize that energy for becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you cannot change the destiny. That is not possible. Then shall I not endeavor for improvement of my economic . . . economic position? No. Why? I am, because destiny, whatever you have got your destiny, you'll get it. How shall I get it? Now suppose if you are put into some unwanted circumstances—you do not want it—you are forced to accept it. So similarly, as distressed condition comes upon you without your wanting, similarly, the position of happiness also will come , even you don't have to try for it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham (SB 1.5.18). Just like distressed condition, unhappiness, nobody wants, but it comes by force. Similarly, the conditional happiness of life . . . because everyone's life is mixed up with some distress or happiness. Nobody can say: "I am simply happy." That is not possible. Distress is there, but nobody wants distress. But it comes. So why happiness will not come? So don't waste your time in this way, because you cannot change this. This will come, automatically. You try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which you never tried. And that is recommended. *And there is a Bengali verse, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya (Prema*-vivarta): to take care of oneself by the fathers, that is available in every life. Because the ant is also taking care. That is not human society, but he's still taking care. A tiger also taking care. The small cubs, they're loitering on the . . . on the body of the lion, and he is feeling very nice. Even monkeys, I have seen. One monkey came in the window, and she had one small child, and somehow or other the child came inside my room. She, that outside monkey, became mad after it. So I had to take . . . (laughs) The affection is there. The ant, they're affectionate; the snake affectionate; the tiger affectionate; the man is affectionate. That is given. Otherwise, who will take care? So therefore the Vaiṣṇava kavi says, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: in every life you'll get father and mother and their protection; *kṛṣṇe guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei: but in every life you cannot get Kṛṣṇa and guru take care of. Because unless you get Kṛṣṇa and guru , then you are within the cycle of birth and death. And you get father and mother and their care, that is all right, but Kṛṣṇa*-guru does not come in that way. That you have to search out. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti . . . (CC Madhya 19.151). Because Kṛṣṇa- guru will give you the nucleus of devotional life. So kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei (Prema-vivarta). So actually, that is the fact. And I was going to tell about Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī was a great devotee, so he was thinking of taking sannyāsa . So he was contemplating that, "I shall now leave my home and take sannyāsa ." So in the meantime, his wife became pregnant. Then he thought that, "I was thinking like that. Anyway, this has happened, and if I take sannyāsa now, what people will say, that 'His wife is pregnant and he has taken sannyāsa , he has gone out of home.' " So he waited, the child was born, and the mother died. (laughing) Then he thought, "I do not know what Kṛṣṇa desires. Who will take care of this child, motherless child?" So that he was thinking very deeply. One lizard dropped before him, one small child lizard. Maane, (Means,) gave birth to a child this small, and the small lizard was staying, and immediately small ant came before the mouth of that small lizard, and he ate. Then Śrīdhara Svāmī thought, "The every arrangement is there. Why I am thinking of this and that?" Immediately went away. Actually, that is the position. The actual care is taken by Kṛṣṇa, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is taking care of everyone. *Best thing is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his term is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara*-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra . It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila . *So it is recommended in the human form of life first of all training as a brahmacārī , then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty*-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī , remain as brahmacārī; *and twenty*-five years to remain as gṛhastha , family man; *and twenty*-five years as vānaprastha; *and twenty-five years as sannyāsa . This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means.. vānaprastha is the preparation for sannyāsa , and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances, you have fallen into the material condition, but if we take, "This is all-in*-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra . It is circumstances. We have fallen into . . . under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving . . . trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution. As far as possible live, for we have got rooms like that. Live there and take little prasādam , and fully devote time how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. So it is authorized by the śāstras, pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . Therefore you'll find still. But now the things have changed that every holy places there are so many men retired. (break) Pradyumna: (break) Prabhupāda: ". . . with my family member shall come to fight with me, so what shall I say, that I have to kill my nephew, I have to kill my brother, I have to kill my grandfather, this is the fight? No, no, I am not going to fight, let them all die." That is natural. So read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "So how can I kill my brother and nephew and others, family members? So my bow is dropping." Go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, viparītāni . "I came to fight, to gain my kingdom, but I see the opposite." Viparītāni . "I'll not be able to enjoy my kingdom by killing them." That thing is said there. Go on. Pradyumna: Ah, translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. You can go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. Pradyumna: "I do not see how any good can come from killing my own kinsmen in this battle, nor can I, my dear Kṛṣṇa, desire any subsequent victory, kingdom or happiness." Prabhupāda: Naturally this will be. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Generally we improve our material condition just to become happy with relatives. When we construct a new house, we invite relatives. So they may come, they will say: "Oh, you have done very nice," and he is also pleased, "My relatives, they have seen." But "If all the relatives are killed, then how it will be possible for me to enjoy the kingdom?" Yeṣām arthe kāṅkṣitam rājyam . Pradyumna: Bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhogāḥ sukhāni ca . Then? Pradyumna: Ta ime 'vasthitā yuddhe . Prabhupāda: "They, for whom I wanted this kingdom, they are in my path. I have to kill them. So what kind of fight is this?" Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "I have to kill them, all the religious and family members." Then? Pradyumna: Etān na hantum icchāmi . Prabhupāda: "I don't like. I don't want this fight." (laughs) Then? Pradyumna: Ghnato 'pi madhusūdana. Prabhupāda: "Then let them kill me. I'll tolerate that. But I am not going to kill them." Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś . . . (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e . . . (BG 18.66): "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, you do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam , "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. (break) . . . a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and He is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. "What kind of God He is?" They have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this . . . Devotee: In New York. Prabhupāda: New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that, "How it is good, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?" Although Arjuna was making his own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him *Gītā* and then inducing him to change his plan, "Go on, fight!" (end) *Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's son*-in-law, they came to see me. Gurudāsa: Any service for me? Prabhupāda: What you are doing there now? Gurudāsa: Um, I've just been talking with Saurabha about the Māyāpur plans to present at this conference in Vancouver, acquisition. We're making a presentation there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: So we're getting that together. Tomorrow I'm leaving. Prabhupāda: For Vancouver? *Gurudāsa: No, I'm go . . . tomorrow I'm going to join Bhavānanda for a week, Bhavānanda Swami. Then I go to Delhi to see . . . and I'm also going to Bhuvaneśvara for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Then I'm going to Delhi to see that American Ambassador again about putting our name on the food list, Indo*-American food list, then Vṛndāvana, then Vancouver. Prabhupāda: So gradually there will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go where? Gurudāsa: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Delhi to New York? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then go to the Western . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: New York then . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: I think it is direct. That I can do. Indian man: America chala jayega. (Went to America.) Prabhupāda: Idhar baithiye. Akele aya aap toh? (Sit here. You all came alone?) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhiye kaise ye log sab prachaar kar rahe hai. (Just see how this boy is preaching.) Indian man: Humare un karovar ke liye jaane ka vichaar tha wo toh kab jan jan ka sajjan hai. (I was thinking of going there for business purposes, but that will be after the business is established well, then we will see.) Prabhupāda: Kya? (What?) Indian man: In relation with our business also, I am thinking of going. Prabhupāda: No business. (laughter) Don't go. Business is this hari kīrtana . Dekho ye log business sab jaante hai. Toh unse business kaun karega? (Just see, they know how to do business very well but who will do business with them?) Guest (1): Anyway, kind of you. I just said that I had thought of that in my own different way also. Prabhupāda: Business is bad. Gurudāsa: People carry on business for happiness and enough to eat and enough clothing. That, no separate endeavor is necessary. Kṛṣṇa gives it all, and more happiness. We can attest to that because we did business. All of us were businessmen. Prabhupāda: Humara ye sab prchar me kam se kam daily dus hazaaar aadmi ekhathe hote hai. Koi humara . . . (In our preaching program about ten thousand people attend everyday. Our nothing is) . . . Guest (1): . . . koi kam nahi karta hai. (indistinct) . . . (Nothing falls short. The Lord only gives.) Prabhupāda: Hum aise hi rehte hai. (indistinct) . . . (They stay here like this, they are all well educated people) . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, I see that are . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): No, I am not leaving. Whether Kṛṣṇa gives me fifty rupees or five million rupees, it does not make much difference, because I am in the line, because I am in the line. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest (1): I may leave any time. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Guest (1): I may leave any time also. Prabhupāda: That is our purpose to do something. Guest (1): Unfortunately some things happened, and some court matters are going on. Prabhupāda: Court? Guest (1): Court matters, some, some lawsuits, etc., which I have filed which aggregate to the extent of about crore rupees or so. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest (1): Oh, I mean I'll get that much. That could be as good amount as you file . . . Prabhupāda: Where? Where? Your claim? Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You have to . . . you have to pay so much stamping fee. Guest (1): No. The maximum stamp duty to be paid is fifteen thousand. Even if you've got a claim of fifteen crores , fifteen thousand is the maximum stamp duty you have to pay. You don't have to pay more. Prabhupāda: Fifteen thousand you have to pay? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Anartheno nyaya rohita . . . in this age, Kali. Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . he owes me money, and I couldn't get my money back from him. *Prabhupāda: If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming after all it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then . . . vaqil (. . . lawyer) so on, so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali*-yuga. Anartheno nyaya rohita. Nyay milega hi nahi (You will not get justice) . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some spaces, but even then you have to field yourself two times . . . (indistinct) . . . and remain in the . . . I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego . . . (indistinct) . . . what you're saying is hundred percent true. It's like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. And nowadays bribe also. Guest (1): Yeah. This is a must. *Prabhupāda: Fourth*-class, śūdra . . . (indistinct) . . . bribe. Guest (1): It is concerning one of the partners. . . . (indistinct) . . . another partner. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . they demand it as a bribe also. Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . your partner like that? *Gurudāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali*-yuga. Guest (1): One thing is there: When I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get . . . Prabhupāda: If you're getting . . . Guest (1): I am liberated that very day. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Gurudāsa: Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat. Guest (1): Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to . . . I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things. Gurudāsa: Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced. Guest (1): Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the . . . *Gurudāsa: Advanced means such*-and-such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. I don't go. (break) . . . Prabhupada from 1923 to '37 Guest (2): We have got an appointment. We have got . . . (break) Guest (3): . . . somewhere. Saturday they close at . . . by 3 or 3:30, so I want to go before that. Prabhupāda: You can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty. Prasadam be ready by half past twelve, one (laughter) Guest (3): No, why bother? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva duḥkhānāṁ . (laughter) Guest (3): Hānir asyopajāyate. *Prabhupāda: I can tell you one practical. So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye ( SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod—Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal, the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is overflood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their . . . the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas , that is there. *Indra , there is indragop , one very small insect. It is also called indra, indragop , insect. And another Indra is the King of heaven. So śāstra says from this Indra to that indra , everyone is bound up by his karma . It includes all others, from this indra to that Indra. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Everyone is bound up by the resultant action of his karma . It cannot be changed. *So śāstra says don't try to change your karma*-phala . Better utilize that energy for becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you cannot change the destiny. That is not possible. Then shall I not endeavor for improvement of my economic . . . economic position? No. Why? I am, because destiny, whatever you have got your destiny, you'll get it. How shall I get it? Now suppose if you are put into some unwanted circumstances—you do not want it—you are forced to accept it. So similarly, as distressed condition comes upon you without your wanting, similarly, the position of happiness also will come , even you don't have to try for it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham (SB 1.5.18). Just like distressed condition, unhappiness, nobody wants, but it comes by force. Similarly, the conditional happiness of life . . . because everyone's life is mixed up with some distress or happiness. Nobody can say: "I am simply happy." That is not possible. Distress is there, but nobody wants distress. But it comes. So why happiness will not come? So don't waste your time in this way, because you cannot change this. This will come, automatically. You try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which you never tried. And that is recommended. *And there is a Bengali verse, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya (Prema*-vivarta): to take care of oneself by the fathers, that is available in every life. Because the ant is also taking care. That is not human society, but he's still taking care. A tiger also taking care. The small cubs, they're loitering on the . . . on the body of the lion, and he is feeling very nice. Even monkeys, I have seen. One monkey came in the window, and she had one small child, and somehow or other the child came inside my room. She, that outside monkey, became mad after it. So I had to take . . . (laughs) The affection is there. The ant, they're affectionate; the snake affectionate; the tiger affectionate; the man is affectionate. That is given. Otherwise, who will take care? So therefore the Vaiṣṇava kavi says, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: in every life you'll get father and mother and their protection; *kṛṣṇe guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei: but in every life you cannot get Kṛṣṇa and guru take care of. Because unless you get Kṛṣṇa and guru , then you are within the cycle of birth and death. And you get father and mother and their care, that is all right, but Kṛṣṇa*-guru does not come in that way. That you have to search out. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti . . . (CC Madhya 19.151). Because Kṛṣṇa- guru will give you the nucleus of devotional life. So kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei (Prema-vivarta). So actually, that is the fact. And I was going to tell about Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī was a great devotee, so he was thinking of taking sannyāsa . So he was contemplating that, "I shall now leave my home and take sannyāsa ." So in the meantime, his wife became pregnant. Then he thought that, "I was thinking like that. Anyway, this has happened, and if I take sannyāsa now, what people will say, that 'His wife is pregnant and he has taken sannyāsa , he has gone out of home.' " So he waited, the child was born, and the mother died. (laughing) Then he thought, "I do not know what Kṛṣṇa desires. Who will take care of this child, motherless child?" So that he was thinking very deeply. One lizard dropped before him, one small child lizard. Maane, (Means,) gave birth to a child this small, and the small lizard was staying, and immediately small ant came before the mouth of that small lizard, and he ate. Then Śrīdhara Svāmī thought, "The every arrangement is there. Why I am thinking of this and that?" Immediately went away. Actually, that is the position. The actual care is taken by Kṛṣṇa, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is taking care of everyone. *Best thing is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his term is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara*-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra . It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila . *So it is recommended in the human form of life first of all training as a brahmacārī , then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty*-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī , remain as brahmacārī; *and twenty*-five years to remain as gṛhastha , family man; *and twenty*-five years as vānaprastha; *and twenty-five years as sannyāsa . This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means.. vānaprastha is the preparation for sannyāsa , and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances, you have fallen into the material condition, but if we take, "This is all-in*-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra . It is circumstances. We have fallen into . . . under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving . . . trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution. As far as possible live, for we have got rooms like that. Live there and take little prasādam , and fully devote time how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. So it is authorized by the śāstras, pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . Therefore you'll find still. But now the things have changed that every holy places there are so many men retired. (break) Pradyumna: (break) Prabhupāda: ". . . with my family member shall come to fight with me, so what shall I say, that I have to kill my nephew, I have to kill my brother, I have to kill my grandfather, this is the fight? No, no, I am not going to fight, let them all die." That is natural. So read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "So how can I kill my brother and nephew and others, family members? So my bow is dropping." Go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, viparītāni . "I came to fight, to gain my kingdom, but I see the opposite." Viparītāni . "I'll not be able to enjoy my kingdom by killing them." That thing is said there. Go on. Pradyumna: Ah, translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. You can go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. Pradyumna: "I do not see how any good can come from killing my own kinsmen in this battle, nor can I, my dear Kṛṣṇa, desire any subsequent victory, kingdom or happiness." Prabhupāda: Naturally this will be. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Generally we improve our material condition just to become happy with relatives. When we construct a new house, we invite relatives. So they may come, they will say: "Oh, you have done very nice," and he is also pleased, "My relatives, they have seen." But "If all the relatives are killed, then how it will be possible for me to enjoy the kingdom?" Yeṣām arthe kāṅkṣitam rājyam . Pradyumna: Bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhogāḥ sukhāni ca . Then? Pradyumna: Ta ime 'vasthitā yuddhe . Prabhupāda: "They, for whom I wanted this kingdom, they are in my path. I have to kill them. So what kind of fight is this?" Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "I have to kill them, all the religious and family members." Then? Pradyumna: Etān na hantum icchāmi . Prabhupāda: "I don't like. I don't want this fight." (laughs) Then? Pradyumna: Ghnato 'pi madhusūdana. Prabhupāda: "Then let them kill me. I'll tolerate that. But I am not going to kill them." Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś . . . (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e . . . (BG 18.66): "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, you do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam , "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. (break) . . . a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and He is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. "What kind of God He is?" They have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this . . . Devotee: In New York. Prabhupāda: New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that, "How it is good, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?" Although Arjuna was making his own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him *Gītā* and then inducing him to change his plan, "Go on, fight!" (end) (poor recording) (Indian devotee reciting Sanskrit praṇaṁ - mantras ) (break) Prabhupāda: Nītyānanda Prabhu. Gurudas: Is he . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . Gurudas: Is he the one who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudas: There's one Nītyānanda prabhu who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? When Puruṣottama lived with you also? One Nītyānanda? Prabhupāda: No, he lives in Orissa. Gurudas: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Near, Padampur. Gurudas: Oh. Prabhupāda: He has got a paper, Parmarthik? Devotee: Siddhanta Bhakti. Prabhupāda: He is very sincere worker, brahmacārī . (break) Guest: (indistinct) . . . eschen . . . (has come . . .) Prabhupāda: Eschen, bhalo korechen. (Good that you have come.) Guest: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Besh bhalo. Apnar bhab o bhalo. (Good. Your feelings are very good.) Guest: Ami mone korlam apni ekbar asben. Sudhu sunei thaklam apni asben. Kintu kobe esechen seto khabar pai ni. Ajke yakhan Mathura theke ekjan amar bari esechilo Radha kunde. Se bollo, "Prabhupada ese gechen Vrndavane ebong kalke oto cole yabe." (I was thinking when you will come. I heard that you will come. But when you have finally come, I haven't got that news. Today one person from Mathura came to my place at Radha Kunda. He informed me that, "Prabhupāda has already arrived at Vrndavana and may leave tomorrow.") (break) I just purchased that Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Two parts. Really wonderful. Earlier I had read one book by Swami Shivananda of Hṛṣīkeśa . . . (indistinct) . . . about Krsna's philosophy, ethics. So after that, I read this really most appealing and wonderful . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Our books are selling very nicely. We’re selling books for forty thousand rupees daily. That is the main standing. Our whole expenditure went there. Please cooperate with this movement. Guest: I am at your disposal. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest: At your command. So you can make me for the . . . (indistinct) . . . documents and all that. *Prabhupāda: (aside) Na, ami ota te thutu feli. (No, I spit in that pot.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . no botheration. Just have chanting. No botheration from Kali? That I . . . (indistinct) . . . but we cannot give you princely order. That is not possible. Simply just to maintain the body and soul together, that I can. But this is . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore I am little strict, that from constantly . . . (indistinct) . . . for nothings. And if there is no Deity money, then picture is there. Only the dress—put the picture. That is also Deity, is it not? Is it not? Yes. Or even in the mind. That is also Deity. Picture is also Deity. And one who cannot provide even picture, the mind is there. Just think of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma and prepare foodstuff, all kinds of foodstuff, and offer within the mind. You have not seen that picture? Yes. He was preparing khīr, and wanted to . . . (break) "Shall I give the Lord so hot? Let me see." Then he touched, his finger is burned. There is no khīr , (laughing) but the finger is burned. These are the instances. A devotee can offer, that serve Kṛṣṇa, so many ways, so many ways. But we should try to serve Kṛṣṇa as gorgeously as possible. But if you have no means, then other things also. Not that, "We have to do it this way." No. The Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, have got their temple. I expected that you must have, Americans . . . (indistinct) . . . but if it is not possible, then it is patraṁ puṣpaṁ with picture, that's all. There is no question of stoppage. Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Devotional service cannot be stopped in any circumstances. (Cross talk from other audio recording fades in and out until end). So my first business is to see that somehow or other the temple is complete. Then we shall see whether there is Deity or there is dress. If in the meantime it is possible, you do. And if there is no means, then you cannot take from the construction. This is my point. Is that clear? Yes. And so far money is concerned, whatever money is there, then you'll spend everything for temple, not for other things. Therefore I am trying to minimize as much as possible, and necessity must be there. Otherwise that money is for this Vṛndāvana, the construction and maintenance. Now I want to finish this. So do like that. Is that all right? Gurudas: Yes. Prabhupāda: Finish the construction at any cost. Your wood has come? Gurudas: Wood has come. Yes. Prabhupāda: Ah, so finish the temple, and I think iron will come by tomorrow or day after tomorrow. In the meantime, you'll fix up the wood and whatever iron. Yes. You bring it. Keep account whatever Deity collection is there. Gurudas: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. That money is there? Gurudas: Yes. Twenty thousand, and another ten will come when it is sent. Prabhupāda: Do it very cautiously, because after all, we are beggar. That you should consider. But if somebody comes forward, that is our business—to induce others, moneyed man. Let his money be spent. That we are doing actually. But this money what I have brought or what I have given at Bombay, this about forty lakhs of rupees. What I have brought from USA, that is my book. That is my . . . we can say, that writing book at night and inducing these devotees: go and sell, go and sell, go and sell. In this way it is going on. This is not contribution. George has given contribution, but that is house. But nobody gives us money for it. And here also you don't get any big contribution, except that Birla has contributed. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Turani has given four lakhs . Prabhupāda: Given? Tamal Kṛṣṇa: He's given fifty thousand, and now he'll give the balances. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So here we can . . . from Bombay do that. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But all this money, what I have brought from USA, I have sent about six lakhs for Māyāpur, and about fifteen lakhs . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Bombay. Prabhupāda: Bombay. And this is also about nine lakhs . So? Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Thirty lakhs . Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs of rupees. And others, I estimate forty lakhs . Anyway . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because you put some money in a trust in America. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: So there is the other ten. Prabhupāda: Ten lakhs . Yes. Ten lakhs I have put for maintenance. So why there is no work today? They're not working? Devotee: Yes, they're working. Prabhupāda: Working? So finish in this way. And it is not possible to bring money any more. If possible, I'll bring. But it has given me too much strain. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: We cannot expect it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Too much strain. In Bombay, that, you know, how telephone after telephone, and this Mrs. Nair, this attorneys, this, that, all. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: That was amazing. You said that was the biggest battle . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: . . . of all. Prabhupāda: Overnight it if we want to payment. Immediately make a call, I take fifty, thirty thousand. Give immediately. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Every night, we were going from early in the morning 'till midnight, every day practically, with meetings. (break) *Prabhupāda: Now, please try to save me from all this strain. Whatever is done, done. Try to maintain it. And what is there? For Vṛndāvana, there is no anxiety. A little roti and rice, you'll be able to offer to Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. There will be no difficulty. Somehow or other finish the temple and install the Deity. If it is not possible install Deity, you have got this picture there. Gurudas: I think we will make one set of clothes. Prabhupāda: Do whatever you . . . like that yes. So why so gorgeous? If you are short of money, the principle should be that we should request somebody; he should supply. This temple construction, we are taking responsibility. The Gosvāmīs did not do that. Gurudas: Mānsiṅgh took. Prabhupāda: Yes. They, one big man came that way. So many big men come. So they offer service, "What can I do?" So they prescribe according to his position. When King Mānsiṅgh came, "Yes, you can construct a very nice temple. You have got money." So they constructed. It is not that Rūpa Gosvāmī had to collect money and see the supervision. The man who came to give some service according to his position, he said: "All right, you can construct a nice temple." So he constructed that temple. (Break) We have to see how far progress is made. So far, there is no progress. What I left at that . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: The sanctioning of the . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No progress has been made. What I left, it is . . . (break) Just to make these things more clear: the stress should be given to complete the temple as soon as possible. When the temple is complete, then ask for the Deity. Fifteen thousand is already paid, and that will be . . . balance will be paid. Now, dress, if there is money, you'll make His dress ten thousand cost. But if there is no money, then ordinary cloth will be sufficient. This is clear*-cut program. Is that all right? Now go. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (poor recording) (Indian devotee reciting Sanskrit praṇaṁ - mantras ) (break) Prabhupāda: Nītyānanda Prabhu. Gurudas: Is he . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . Gurudas: Is he the one who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudas: There's one Nītyānanda prabhu who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? When Puruṣottama lived with you also? One Nītyānanda? Prabhupāda: No, he lives in Orissa. Gurudas: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Near, Padampur. Gurudas: Oh. Prabhupāda: He has got a paper, Parmarthik? Devotee: Siddhanta Bhakti. Prabhupāda: He is very sincere worker, brahmacārī . (break) Guest: (indistinct) . . . eschen . . . (has come . . .) Prabhupāda: Eschen, bhalo korechen. (Good that you have come.) Guest: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Besh bhalo. Apnar bhab o bhalo. (Good. Your feelings are very good.) Guest: Ami mone korlam apni ekbar asben. Sudhu sunei thaklam apni asben. Kintu kobe esechen seto khabar pai ni. Ajke yakhan Mathura theke ekjan amar bari esechilo Radha kunde. Se bollo, "Prabhupada ese gechen Vrndavane ebong kalke oto cole yabe." (I was thinking when you will come. I heard that you will come. But when you have finally come, I haven't got that news. Today one person from Mathura came to my place at Radha Kunda. He informed me that, "Prabhupāda has already arrived at Vrndavana and may leave tomorrow.") (break) I just purchased that Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Two parts. Really wonderful. Earlier I had read one book by Swami Shivananda of Hṛṣīkeśa . . . (indistinct) . . . about Krsna's philosophy, ethics. So after that, I read this really most appealing and wonderful . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Our books are selling very nicely. We’re selling books for forty thousand rupees daily. That is the main standing. Our whole expenditure went there. Please cooperate with this movement. Guest: I am at your disposal. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest: At your command. So you can make me for the . . . (indistinct) . . . documents and all that. *Prabhupāda: (aside) Na, ami ota te thutu feli. (No, I spit in that pot.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . no botheration. Just have chanting. No botheration from Kali? That I . . . (indistinct) . . . but we cannot give you princely order. That is not possible. Simply just to maintain the body and soul together, that I can. But this is . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore I am little strict, that from constantly . . . (indistinct) . . . for nothings. And if there is no Deity money, then picture is there. Only the dress—put the picture. That is also Deity, is it not? Is it not? Yes. Or even in the mind. That is also Deity. Picture is also Deity. And one who cannot provide even picture, the mind is there. Just think of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma and prepare foodstuff, all kinds of foodstuff, and offer within the mind. You have not seen that picture? Yes. He was preparing khīr, and wanted to . . . (break) "Shall I give the Lord so hot? Let me see." Then he touched, his finger is burned. There is no khīr , (laughing) but the finger is burned. These are the instances. A devotee can offer, that serve Kṛṣṇa, so many ways, so many ways. But we should try to serve Kṛṣṇa as gorgeously as possible. But if you have no means, then other things also. Not that, "We have to do it this way." No. The Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, have got their temple. I expected that you must have, Americans . . . (indistinct) . . . but if it is not possible, then it is patraṁ puṣpaṁ with picture, that's all. There is no question of stoppage. Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Devotional service cannot be stopped in any circumstances. (Cross talk from other audio recording fades in and out until end). So my first business is to see that somehow or other the temple is complete. Then we shall see whether there is Deity or there is dress. If in the meantime it is possible, you do. And if there is no means, then you cannot take from the construction. This is my point. Is that clear? Yes. And so far money is concerned, whatever money is there, then you'll spend everything for temple, not for other things. Therefore I am trying to minimize as much as possible, and necessity must be there. Otherwise that money is for this Vṛndāvana, the construction and maintenance. Now I want to finish this. So do like that. Is that all right? Gurudas: Yes. Prabhupāda: Finish the construction at any cost. Your wood has come? Gurudas: Wood has come. Yes. Prabhupāda: Ah, so finish the temple, and I think iron will come by tomorrow or day after tomorrow. In the meantime, you'll fix up the wood and whatever iron. Yes. You bring it. Keep account whatever Deity collection is there. Gurudas: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. That money is there? Gurudas: Yes. Twenty thousand, and another ten will come when it is sent. Prabhupāda: Do it very cautiously, because after all, we are beggar. That you should consider. But if somebody comes forward, that is our business—to induce others, moneyed man. Let his money be spent. That we are doing actually. But this money what I have brought or what I have given at Bombay, this about forty lakhs of rupees. What I have brought from USA, that is my book. That is my . . . we can say, that writing book at night and inducing these devotees: go and sell, go and sell, go and sell. In this way it is going on. This is not contribution. George has given contribution, but that is house. But nobody gives us money for it. And here also you don't get any big contribution, except that Birla has contributed. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Turani has given four lakhs . Prabhupāda: Given? Tamal Kṛṣṇa: He's given fifty thousand, and now he'll give the balances. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So here we can . . . from Bombay do that. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But all this money, what I have brought from USA, I have sent about six lakhs for Māyāpur, and about fifteen lakhs . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Bombay. Prabhupāda: Bombay. And this is also about nine lakhs . So? Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Thirty lakhs . Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs of rupees. And others, I estimate forty lakhs . Anyway . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because you put some money in a trust in America. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: So there is the other ten. Prabhupāda: Ten lakhs . Yes. Ten lakhs I have put for maintenance. So why there is no work today? They're not working? Devotee: Yes, they're working. Prabhupāda: Working? So finish in this way. And it is not possible to bring money any more. If possible, I'll bring. But it has given me too much strain. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: We cannot expect it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Too much strain. In Bombay, that, you know, how telephone after telephone, and this Mrs. Nair, this attorneys, this, that, all. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: That was amazing. You said that was the biggest battle . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: . . . of all. Prabhupāda: Overnight it if we want to payment. Immediately make a call, I take fifty, thirty thousand. Give immediately. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Every night, we were going from early in the morning 'till midnight, every day practically, with meetings. (break) *Prabhupāda: Now, please try to save me from all this strain. Whatever is done, done. Try to maintain it. And what is there? For Vṛndāvana, there is no anxiety. A little roti and rice, you'll be able to offer to Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. There will be no difficulty. Somehow or other finish the temple and install the Deity. If it is not possible install Deity, you have got this picture there. Gurudas: I think we will make one set of clothes. Prabhupāda: Do whatever you . . . like that yes. So why so gorgeous? If you are short of money, the principle should be that we should request somebody; he should supply. This temple construction, we are taking responsibility. The Gosvāmīs did not do that. Gurudas: Mānsiṅgh took. Prabhupāda: Yes. They, one big man came that way. So many big men come. So they offer service, "What can I do?" So they prescribe according to his position. When King Mānsiṅgh came, "Yes, you can construct a very nice temple. You have got money." So they constructed. It is not that Rūpa Gosvāmī had to collect money and see the supervision. The man who came to give some service according to his position, he said: "All right, you can construct a nice temple." So he constructed that temple. (Break) We have to see how far progress is made. So far, there is no progress. What I left at that . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: The sanctioning of the . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No progress has been made. What I left, it is . . . (break) Just to make these things more clear: the stress should be given to complete the temple as soon as possible. When the temple is complete, then ask for the Deity. Fifteen thousand is already paid, and that will be . . . balance will be paid. Now, dress, if there is money, you'll make His dress ten thousand cost. But if there is no money, then ordinary cloth will be sufficient. This is clear*-cut program. Is that all right? Now go. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: Seven hundred? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: On the other side of . . . (indistinct) . . . I think it crosses . . . Prabhupāda: In USA . . . (break) Ek ghanta me . . . (indistinct) (In one hour or so) . . . (indistinct) Guest (1) (Indian man): Hmm. Ji ha. (Okay.) Gurudāsa: Even car, the roads are so big. Prabhupāda: Ah, bus service is all right? Nahi, wo to transportation to bahut hi acchi hai USA me. Ek Greyhound motorcycle hai, Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, transportation is very nice in the USA. There is one Greyhound motorcycle of the Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) Guest (1): I don't think these people have seen the ekka here, have you? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Have you seen the ekka? Prabhupāda: I think it is now obsolete. Guest (1): Obsolete now. I don't see it now. Gurudāsa: Train? Guest (1): No . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Just like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The ekka had like this . . . Guest (1): There is a platform like this. Prabhupāda: It moves on the roof of the house. (laughter) Unka desh me abhi wo ho gaya na, helicopter. (Now, in their country they have helicopters.) Guest (1): Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Wo chat pe. (On the roof.) (break) . . . New York, goes to Los Angeles and then to Honolulu, then Tokyo, then Hong Kong, then New Delhi . . . no. Hong Kong to Bangkok, Bangkok to New Delhi, New Delhi to Karachi, Karachi to Beirut, then, I think, London, then again New York. One. One round. Usi ka ticket hum log kharidte hai. (We buy tickets for that only.) One round. Guest (1): To beech me stoppage . . . (So is there a stoppage in between) . . . (break) (laughter) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . Aj kal restriction . . . (Nowadays there is restriction . . .) (laughing) (break) Fifty crores . Guest (1): Huh? More than that. (laughter) More than that? Why not? *Prabhupāda: Not fifty crores . Fifty*-five lakhs . *Guest (1): Fifty*-five lakhs . Oh. Prabhupāda: This George Harrison, he came here. Guest (1): George Harrison? He has donated in cash or that building? Prabhupāda: Not that building. Guest (1): That building. Prabhupāda: He has purchased for me. Guest (1): Ācchā . Prabhupāda: It is named Bhaktivedanta Manor. Guest (1): Ācchā . Guest (2) (Indian man): Bhaktivedanta . . .? Prabhupāda: Manor. Guest (2): Manor. Prabhupāda: He contributed for this book $19,000. Practically he gave starting. Yes. No. Starting was that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I printed. Then I printed this book. Then by selling this book, this book, that book, like that. He is very good boy. He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Chanting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Sab chod diya? (He left everything?) Prabhupāda: Nahi, wo apna business chal raha hai. (No, he is doing his business.) Now what is the latest record? Gurudāsa: "Kṛṣṇa, I miss You. Kṛṣṇa, where are You?" Guest (1): The song? Prabhupāda: There was . . . Guest (1): Song? Prabhupāda: Yes, song. His song, as soon as one record is published, then millions is sold. Then millions. Guest (1): I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right . . . perfect method of prachār . Prabhupāda: No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan? Gurudāsa: Bob Dylan. Prabhupāda: Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda what can I do for him." He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted. Guest (1): He's also attracted. Prabhupāda: Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya? Gurudāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Vaijayanti. Guest (1): Vaijayanti Mala. She's a very famous actress. Prabhupāda: She's very nice girl, actually . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): They are my sister, my younger sister. Younger sister. Prabhupāda: Dekhiye bhai saheb jaisa bhajan karta hai ap bhi . . . (Perform bhajan just like your brother) . . . (break) ISKCON Hotel. Government se do crore rupaya manga hai. (I have requested the government for two crore rupees.) Guest (2): Government loan, loan? Indian government se? Kaha ka? (From the Indian government? From where?) Prabhupāda: Loan. Here Indian government. (break) My eldest son was born in 1921. Guest (2): I was born in 1917. Prabhupāda: Seventeen . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) Guest (2): Mayavadi thode hi na hu prabhuji. (I am not a mayāvādi prabhuji.) Guest (3): Mayavadi to Krishna hote hai so hum hote hai. (Kṛṣṇa is a mayāvādi so we are too.) *Prabhupāda: Mayavadi ka ashray le rahe hai. Huh? Nahi, ye swayam Krishna hai, wo mayadhisha hai. Mayavadi nahi, mayadhisha. (Taking shelter of mayāvādis. Huh? No, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, He is māyādhīśa. Not mayāvādi, māyādhīśa.) (break) . . . Jo Krishna ko bhul gaya, to Krishna kehte hai mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ. Krishna ko bhul jana . . . (One who has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ (BG 15.15). Forgetting Kṛṣṇa) . . . (break) . . . transcendental . . . every part. Purana tuta*-futa, ye sab kuch nahi, sab transcendental. Aisa ye kutta, suar, jo kuch hai sab transcendental. Idhar koi kharab chiz nahi. (Old and broken, there is nothing like that, all this is transcendental. Even these dogs, pigs, everything is transcendental. There is no bad thing here.) (break) . . . Vrindavan chodne ko nahi chahta . . . (indistinct) . . . humara jo quarter hai, humara jo baithne ka sitting room, isse dedh guna aur humara bathroom iska three-fourth. Aur bedroom, wo bhi half samajh lijiye. Half nahi, half se zyada. Ye sab . . . (Do not want to leave Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . our quarter, the sitting room, that is one and a half times bigger than this and our bathroom is three-fourth of this. And the bedroom, that is also half. Not half, a little more than half. All this) . . . (break) Guest (2): (break) . . . jisme ke itne hazaro hazaro souls ka career involve ho wo kisi ek . . . (where thousands and thousands of souls' career is involved, for one) . . . (break) Guest (3): Humare shri gurudev kaha karte the, bade param pandit the . . . (Our respected gurudev used to say, he was a big pandit) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: (break) . . . trustees. Because he contributes. He contributes, and that boy, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he also contributes. (break) (laughter) You are not religious, huh? (laughter) (break) *Guest (4): . . . stay at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa in Puruṣottama Gosvāmī's old house, in Rādhā-Rāmaṇa. Lately I'm staying at . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja's āśrama . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: So what is the condition of the work? Finished? Gurudāsa: Not finished. (break) Prabhupāda: He requires so many things. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whether he is connected. Encourage him to the Deity worship at Yamunā. What can we do? (pause) So wood has come? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're arranging for roofing? Gurudāsa: Any for roofing? No, this is for scaffolding. Actually, also some wood planks for the roof to be casted with the steel. So that plank wood has also come, and all these for casting, uh, for scaffolding has also come. And Guṇārṇava spoke to Tejiyas on the telephone, and he said that within a few days the steel would be ready. So I'm also going to go to Delhi the day after tomorrow and check on the steel, and I think we'll bring it down and start. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes, we'll do that. I'll do that. (break) . . . so one can learn Deity worship in Vṛndāvana. I also will learn that Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles they are doing very nice. Gurudāsa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . three men. Gurudāsa: Hmm. That's nice, that's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men at the time at ārati . Gurudāsa: I was wondering. In Imlitala they do one man, but I was thinking three is very . . . at that JK temple in Kanpur, three men. That's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Very nice. (break) Prabhupāda: Profusely flowers, they do it. Los Angeles is most gorgeous, temple. We are to do like that here in Vṛndāvana. Gurudāsa: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Very gorgeous. All decorated, chandeliers . . . (indistinct) . . . gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas . Keep at least well*-trained devotees, at least twelve. And for all that comfortable life . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you do not know, that money. (break) Gurudāsa: Some people make the . . . cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: That's right. Gurudāsa: Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice. *Prabhupāda: Is that very good. (break) . . . that is good . . . one who desires well*-being . . . Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . he is called sūrya . Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he desires. Gurudāsa: Yes. And he is not motivated. Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: He is very good, good. (break) Kapoor also is increasing more and more, very much favorable. Sat Bisanchand also is favorable. Is nice. Prabhupāda: Influential man he is? Gurudāsa: Somewhat influential, but . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . that, but now from Rādhā*-Dāmodara Temple he cannot take anything. Gurudāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how he will maintain? Gurudāsa: I don't know. He must have some money. Prabhupāda: And what Panchu is doing? Gurudāsa: Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much. Prabhupāda: How he has left for some service. Gurudāsa: Maybe. I can inquire. Prabhupāda: No. There is no . . . why you should go? Let them do their own work. Gurudāsa: Yes. Devotee: I can sweep over here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Why not? Gurudāsa: Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the śevaite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment . . . Prabhupāda: But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed. Gurudāsa: Yes. Printed receipt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Printed form. Gurudāsa: So I should again pay to Gaurachand Gosvāmī? I think so. Prabhupāda: This, this, this . . . (indistinct) . . . complete. Gurudāsa: But that . . . that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Next time I, when I come . . . Devotee: Come, it, roof should be ready. Prabhupāda: . . . I want to see that it is, roof is complete, and then we begin. So another thing: should I take rates for the marble from others, or we shall accept this? Gurudāsa: I've already taken rates, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: And now this man, Narayan Das, says that yesterday they said that it did . . . the rates did not include people to put the marble in. It did not include laborers to install. Prabhupāda: No, no. They have . . . they have to order this, because . . . (indistinct) . . . include everything. Gurudāsa: If it includes, it is a good rate. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Gurudāsa: But in, in Makrana I got the rate seven*-fifty, eight rupees. Seven, seven-fifty, eight for dungri , that kind. And about two-fifty to three extra for labor. So if they charge eight or seven, including labor and delivery and polishing, it is good rate, but if it is just delivery, it is not a good rate. Prabhupāda: So, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . said that he'll send the contract form. So we have to see. Gurudāsa: If it does not include the delivery and the polishing . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . must include delivery, polishing, everything. Gurudāsa: If it does, it's good rate. Also this black marble, I've gotten the price in Makrana four, four rupees and fifty paisa. Prabhupāda: That is excluding labor. Gurudāsa: Yes. So if they can do it for five, it is good rate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: But if they do it five for just the marble, it is not good rate. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not good. It is included everything. That I was informed by . . . Gurudāsa: Then it's . . . then it is good. It is very good for us. Prabhupāda: Then we shall accept. Gurudāsa: Oh, yes. It is good quotation. But he is not willing to do the bank guarantee. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: The pound, the huṇḍa , what is it called? Prabhupāda: huṇḍi . Gurudāsa: huṇḍi . Prabhupāda: No. That we shall . . . he is not bringing all the goods at a time. Gurudāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Partially. We have to pay. Gurudāsa: All right. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want you to feel that we will do this, and this work, and spend frugally and thrifty. Prabhupāda: Very frugally. You have already become very unfrugal. Gurudāsa: I am agitated that you are anxious about it, because yes, I commit many mistakes, no doubt. Prabhupāda: So, that's all right. Don't commit more, that's all. Gurudāsa: Yes. But there's also some mistakes I have not committed. There's some very good things that have happened. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Don't commit mistake. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Devotee should not commit mistake. He's above it. Gurudāsa: But I want you to feel . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is my business to worry. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes. You are the best father I have. My father spared the rod. He spoiled me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: And you are not doing. Prabhupāda: But don't take, because I do not show the stick, don't take advantage of it. Gurudāsa: You have shown the stick, verbally. Prabhupāda: Now do it nicely. Keep me less anxiety. Gurudāsa: I want to do. Prabhupāda: It is natural when money is misspent, one who brings money he thinks this. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I take so much trouble, and then . . . that is, that is always . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. I also would feel that way. Prabhupāda: So the money raised for the other business, that should be spent for that purpose. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the temple money . . . so you'll go to the bank tomorrow? Yes? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which bank he has dispatched the 50,000? Gurudāsa: Yes, Syndicate. Prabhupāda: But they have not yet informed. How is that? He said he has already sent. Gurudāsa: He has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Who? Gurudāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurudāsa: But the bank has not informed. Guṇārṇava is checking today. Prabhupāda: Telegrammed the money? Gurudāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed myself, directly . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: . . . that he has sent it. Prabhupāda: When he has sent it? Gurudāsa: Telegrammed yesterday . . . day before yesterday, evening. Prabhupāda: Day before yesterday. Gurudāsa: Evening. Prabhupāda: Evening. Gurudāsa: Late evening. Prabhupāda: So they must have received the money by today. Gurudāsa: Yes. Guṇārṇava is checking. (end) Prabhupāda: Seven hundred? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: On the other side of . . . (indistinct) . . . I think it crosses . . . Prabhupāda: In USA . . . (break) Ek ghanta me . . . (indistinct) (In one hour or so) . . . (indistinct) Guest (1) (Indian man): Hmm. Ji ha. (Okay.) Gurudāsa: Even car, the roads are so big. Prabhupāda: Ah, bus service is all right? Nahi, wo to transportation to bahut hi acchi hai USA me. Ek Greyhound motorcycle hai, Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, transportation is very nice in the USA. There is one Greyhound motorcycle of the Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) Guest (1): I don't think these people have seen the ekka here, have you? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Have you seen the ekka? Prabhupāda: I think it is now obsolete. Guest (1): Obsolete now. I don't see it now. Gurudāsa: Train? Guest (1): No . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Just like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The ekka had like this . . . Guest (1): There is a platform like this. Prabhupāda: It moves on the roof of the house. (laughter) Unka desh me abhi wo ho gaya na, helicopter. (Now, in their country they have helicopters.) Guest (1): Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Wo chat pe. (On the roof.) (break) . . . New York, goes to Los Angeles and then to Honolulu, then Tokyo, then Hong Kong, then New Delhi . . . no. Hong Kong to Bangkok, Bangkok to New Delhi, New Delhi to Karachi, Karachi to Beirut, then, I think, London, then again New York. One. One round. Usi ka ticket hum log kharidte hai. (We buy tickets for that only.) One round. Guest (1): To beech me stoppage . . . (So is there a stoppage in between) . . . (break) (laughter) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . Aj kal restriction . . . (Nowadays there is restriction . . .) (laughing) (break) Fifty crores . Guest (1): Huh? More than that. (laughter) More than that? Why not? *Prabhupāda: Not fifty crores . Fifty*-five lakhs . *Guest (1): Fifty*-five lakhs . Oh. Prabhupāda: This George Harrison, he came here. Guest (1): George Harrison? He has donated in cash or that building? Prabhupāda: Not that building. Guest (1): That building. Prabhupāda: He has purchased for me. Guest (1): Ācchā . Prabhupāda: It is named Bhaktivedanta Manor. Guest (1): Ācchā . Guest (2) (Indian man): Bhaktivedanta . . .? Prabhupāda: Manor. Guest (2): Manor. Prabhupāda: He contributed for this book $19,000. Practically he gave starting. Yes. No. Starting was that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I printed. Then I printed this book. Then by selling this book, this book, that book, like that. He is very good boy. He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Chanting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Sab chod diya? (He left everything?) Prabhupāda: Nahi, wo apna business chal raha hai. (No, he is doing his business.) Now what is the latest record? Gurudāsa: "Kṛṣṇa, I miss You. Kṛṣṇa, where are You?" Guest (1): The song? Prabhupāda: There was . . . Guest (1): Song? Prabhupāda: Yes, song. His song, as soon as one record is published, then millions is sold. Then millions. Guest (1): I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right . . . perfect method of prachār . Prabhupāda: No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan? Gurudāsa: Bob Dylan. Prabhupāda: Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda what can I do for him." He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted. Guest (1): He's also attracted. Prabhupāda: Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya? Gurudāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Vaijayanti. Guest (1): Vaijayanti Mala. She's a very famous actress. Prabhupāda: She's very nice girl, actually . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): They are my sister, my younger sister. Younger sister. Prabhupāda: Dekhiye bhai saheb jaisa bhajan karta hai ap bhi . . . (Perform bhajan just like your brother) . . . (break) ISKCON Hotel. Government se do crore rupaya manga hai. (I have requested the government for two crore rupees.) Guest (2): Government loan, loan? Indian government se? Kaha ka? (From the Indian government? From where?) Prabhupāda: Loan. Here Indian government. (break) My eldest son was born in 1921. Guest (2): I was born in 1917. Prabhupāda: Seventeen . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) Guest (2): Mayavadi thode hi na hu prabhuji. (I am not a mayāvādi prabhuji.) Guest (3): Mayavadi to Krishna hote hai so hum hote hai. (Kṛṣṇa is a mayāvādi so we are too.) *Prabhupāda: Mayavadi ka ashray le rahe hai. Huh? Nahi, ye swayam Krishna hai, wo mayadhisha hai. Mayavadi nahi, mayadhisha. (Taking shelter of mayāvādis. Huh? No, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, He is māyādhīśa. Not mayāvādi, māyādhīśa.) (break) . . . Jo Krishna ko bhul gaya, to Krishna kehte hai mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ. Krishna ko bhul jana . . . (One who has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ (BG 15.15). Forgetting Kṛṣṇa) . . . (break) . . . transcendental . . . every part. Purana tuta*-futa, ye sab kuch nahi, sab transcendental. Aisa ye kutta, suar, jo kuch hai sab transcendental. Idhar koi kharab chiz nahi. (Old and broken, there is nothing like that, all this is transcendental. Even these dogs, pigs, everything is transcendental. There is no bad thing here.) (break) . . . Vrindavan chodne ko nahi chahta . . . (indistinct) . . . humara jo quarter hai, humara jo baithne ka sitting room, isse dedh guna aur humara bathroom iska three-fourth. Aur bedroom, wo bhi half samajh lijiye. Half nahi, half se zyada. Ye sab . . . (Do not want to leave Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . our quarter, the sitting room, that is one and a half times bigger than this and our bathroom is three-fourth of this. And the bedroom, that is also half. Not half, a little more than half. All this) . . . (break) Guest (2): (break) . . . jisme ke itne hazaro hazaro souls ka career involve ho wo kisi ek . . . (where thousands and thousands of souls' career is involved, for one) . . . (break) Guest (3): Humare shri gurudev kaha karte the, bade param pandit the . . . (Our respected gurudev used to say, he was a big pandit) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: (break) . . . trustees. Because he contributes. He contributes, and that boy, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he also contributes. (break) (laughter) You are not religious, huh? (laughter) (break) *Guest (4): . . . stay at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa in Puruṣottama Gosvāmī's old house, in Rādhā-Rāmaṇa. Lately I'm staying at . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja's āśrama . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: So what is the condition of the work? Finished? Gurudāsa: Not finished. (break) Prabhupāda: He requires so many things. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whether he is connected. Encourage him to the Deity worship at Yamunā. What can we do? (pause) So wood has come? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're arranging for roofing? Gurudāsa: Any for roofing? No, this is for scaffolding. Actually, also some wood planks for the roof to be casted with the steel. So that plank wood has also come, and all these for casting, uh, for scaffolding has also come. And Guṇārṇava spoke to Tejiyas on the telephone, and he said that within a few days the steel would be ready. So I'm also going to go to Delhi the day after tomorrow and check on the steel, and I think we'll bring it down and start. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes, we'll do that. I'll do that. (break) . . . so one can learn Deity worship in Vṛndāvana. I also will learn that Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles they are doing very nice. Gurudāsa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . three men. Gurudāsa: Hmm. That's nice, that's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men at the time at ārati . Gurudāsa: I was wondering. In Imlitala they do one man, but I was thinking three is very . . . at that JK temple in Kanpur, three men. That's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Very nice. (break) Prabhupāda: Profusely flowers, they do it. Los Angeles is most gorgeous, temple. We are to do like that here in Vṛndāvana. Gurudāsa: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Very gorgeous. All decorated, chandeliers . . . (indistinct) . . . gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas . Keep at least well*-trained devotees, at least twelve. And for all that comfortable life . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you do not know, that money. (break) Gurudāsa: Some people make the . . . cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: That's right. Gurudāsa: Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice. *Prabhupāda: Is that very good. (break) . . . that is good . . . one who desires well*-being . . . Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . he is called sūrya . Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he desires. Gurudāsa: Yes. And he is not motivated. Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: He is very good, good. (break) Kapoor also is increasing more and more, very much favorable. Sat Bisanchand also is favorable. Is nice. Prabhupāda: Influential man he is? Gurudāsa: Somewhat influential, but . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . that, but now from Rādhā*-Dāmodara Temple he cannot take anything. Gurudāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how he will maintain? Gurudāsa: I don't know. He must have some money. Prabhupāda: And what Panchu is doing? Gurudāsa: Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much. Prabhupāda: How he has left for some service. Gurudāsa: Maybe. I can inquire. Prabhupāda: No. There is no . . . why you should go? Let them do their own work. Gurudāsa: Yes. Devotee: I can sweep over here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Why not? Gurudāsa: Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the śevaite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment . . . Prabhupāda: But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed. Gurudāsa: Yes. Printed receipt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Printed form. Gurudāsa: So I should again pay to Gaurachand Gosvāmī? I think so. Prabhupāda: This, this, this . . . (indistinct) . . . complete. Gurudāsa: But that . . . that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Next time I, when I come . . . Devotee: Come, it, roof should be ready. Prabhupāda: . . . I want to see that it is, roof is complete, and then we begin. So another thing: should I take rates for the marble from others, or we shall accept this? Gurudāsa: I've already taken rates, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: And now this man, Narayan Das, says that yesterday they said that it did . . . the rates did not include people to put the marble in. It did not include laborers to install. Prabhupāda: No, no. They have . . . they have to order this, because . . . (indistinct) . . . include everything. Gurudāsa: If it includes, it is a good rate. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Gurudāsa: But in, in Makrana I got the rate seven*-fifty, eight rupees. Seven, seven-fifty, eight for dungri , that kind. And about two-fifty to three extra for labor. So if they charge eight or seven, including labor and delivery and polishing, it is good rate, but if it is just delivery, it is not a good rate. Prabhupāda: So, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . said that he'll send the contract form. So we have to see. Gurudāsa: If it does not include the delivery and the polishing . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . must include delivery, polishing, everything. Gurudāsa: If it does, it's good rate. Also this black marble, I've gotten the price in Makrana four, four rupees and fifty paisa. Prabhupāda: That is excluding labor. Gurudāsa: Yes. So if they can do it for five, it is good rate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: But if they do it five for just the marble, it is not good rate. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not good. It is included everything. That I was informed by . . . Gurudāsa: Then it's . . . then it is good. It is very good for us. Prabhupāda: Then we shall accept. Gurudāsa: Oh, yes. It is good quotation. But he is not willing to do the bank guarantee. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: The pound, the huṇḍa , what is it called? Prabhupāda: huṇḍi . Gurudāsa: huṇḍi . Prabhupāda: No. That we shall . . . he is not bringing all the goods at a time. Gurudāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Partially. We have to pay. Gurudāsa: All right. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want you to feel that we will do this, and this work, and spend frugally and thrifty. Prabhupāda: Very frugally. You have already become very unfrugal. Gurudāsa: I am agitated that you are anxious about it, because yes, I commit many mistakes, no doubt. Prabhupāda: So, that's all right. Don't commit more, that's all. Gurudāsa: Yes. But there's also some mistakes I have not committed. There's some very good things that have happened. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Don't commit mistake. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Devotee should not commit mistake. He's above it. Gurudāsa: But I want you to feel . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is my business to worry. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes. You are the best father I have. My father spared the rod. He spoiled me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: And you are not doing. Prabhupāda: But don't take, because I do not show the stick, don't take advantage of it. Gurudāsa: You have shown the stick, verbally. Prabhupāda: Now do it nicely. Keep me less anxiety. Gurudāsa: I want to do. Prabhupāda: It is natural when money is misspent, one who brings money he thinks this. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I take so much trouble, and then . . . that is, that is always . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. I also would feel that way. Prabhupāda: So the money raised for the other business, that should be spent for that purpose. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the temple money . . . so you'll go to the bank tomorrow? Yes? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which bank he has dispatched the 50,000? Gurudāsa: Yes, Syndicate. Prabhupāda: But they have not yet informed. How is that? He said he has already sent. Gurudāsa: He has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Who? Gurudāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurudāsa: But the bank has not informed. Guṇārṇava is checking today. Prabhupāda: Telegrammed the money? Gurudāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed myself, directly . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: . . . that he has sent it. Prabhupāda: When he has sent it? Gurudāsa: Telegrammed yesterday . . . day before yesterday, evening. Prabhupāda: Day before yesterday. Gurudāsa: Evening. Prabhupāda: Evening. Gurudāsa: Late evening. Prabhupāda: So they must have received the money by today. Gurudāsa: Yes. Guṇārṇava is checking. (end) (no audio, first part) Gurudāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: How many of you went? *Gurudāsa: Most everyone, about twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (audio starts) *Gurudāsa: At first they went to the Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana*-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi , and then I left, at Madana-mohana. Dr. Kapoor came this morning? Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: No? Śyāmasundara: All these boys and girls all went to sleep for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Thank you. You have come from where? Guest (1): Just now from the Hanumān Mandir , just down the road there, not far. But I'm . . . we're all from America. Prabhupāda: Here you are remaining there? Guest: We are there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Mohan?, a guesthouse just down to the right. Prabhupāda: Where is . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . he's delivering fruits and flowers. Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli. Prabhupāda: Nim Babari? Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask . . . he requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana , if you . . . if you wish. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible? Guest: I . . . I don't know. I'm just . . . he asked me to come and request it, so . . . Prabhupāda: We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested. Woman guest (2): There are thirty Westerners there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana . Prabhupāda: Thirty Westerners? Guest (1): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Oh. That, I have no objection, we can go,. . . (indistinct) . . . those are organizing. You are also staying? Woman guest (2): Yes. Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask. Gurudāsa: Do you have any . . . any other questions? Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment. Gurudāsa: You don't have to explain your presence you are most welcome. Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Where is the Deity? Devotee: Taking on saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: You get time, you can . . . Devotee: Saṅkīrtana , when you're ready. Gurudāsa: She (second woman guest) was attending all the lectures at the paṇḍāl in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen her. Gurudāsa: And Philadelphia also. Prabhupāda: So, you understand our philosophy? Woman guest (3): Understand . . .? Prabhupāda: Our philosophy? Guest (1): Philosophy. Woman guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Where? Woman guest (3): Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Woman guest (3): And we do the āratik and read all your books. Prabhupāda: Which book? Woman guest (3): *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, Lord Caitanya, *Kṛṣṇa Book* , and obviously . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke , with all the philosophers, and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them or . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy. Gurudāsa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin. Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good. Śyāmasundara: They tried, but they weren't . . . they weren't God conscious. They were recording in their own poor? life . . . (indistinct) . . . the truth. The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure . . . figure it out with their mind. *Prabhupāda: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, in the Western countries, they have . . . lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider this body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize . . . (indistinct) . . . if your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata . . . Śrīmad Bhāgavata , it is said that yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13): "Anyone, considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." (to guests) What is your philosophy? You don't take this body as the self? Guest (1): I . . . oh, no. Prabhupāda: You? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: Very good. So who is bringing my bedding? Śyāmasundara: Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara? I don't know. Gurudāsa: I've got the keys to that room also. Śyāmasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements. Prabhupāda: (to guests) So, what is your philosophy? Guest (1): My philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān , is the one absolute existence, but it has a delusive power, whereby . . . Prabhupāda: Who is that got delusive power? Guest (1): God, or . . . Devotee: God? Guest (1): . . . the māyā , the māyā of God makes . . . makes a man identify himself with his body. But it is . . . that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes . . . it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are . . . he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace. Prabhupāda: By God's grace, what happens? Guest (1): One cannot . . . one achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's . . . one no longer identifies himself with his body. Prabhupāda: So result of loving God, what it is? Guest (1): Without loving God? Devotee: No. Result. Prabhupāda: Result is what? Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes. Prabhupāda: What will come? Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God. Devotee: What is that union? Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it . . . it's called yoga , or it's samādhi . I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read. Prabhupāda: Samadhi is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity? Guest (1): What is the form of unity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): I . . . my understanding is that, that, er, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving Prabhupāda: Beyond form. Guest (1): . . . through loving the form of God . . . it has form and yet it's formless. It's both . . . has form and formless. Prabhupāda: What is that formlessness, and what is that form? Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? (laughs) My own knowledge is just very slight. Prabhupāda: You are not learning there, where you are staying? Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja . . . this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest. Prabhupāda: But love, if you have no form, where to love? The air? Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti , you love the form of God. Prabhupāda: But you said it's formless. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the . . . Prabhupāda: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy? Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true. Prabhupāda: Then. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love? Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me. Prabhupāda: What does he teach? Guest (1): He said . . . Prabhupāda: He teaches form? Guest (1): He says that . . . yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānjī. Prabhupāda: Who is Hanumān? Guest (1): Hanumān is the breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guest (1): The breath of Rāma, śvāsa . Rāma*-ke-śvāsa , breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Breath? Guest (1): The breath. Hanumān was the . . . Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?" and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve You." Prabhupāda: That's so nonsense. Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know . . . Gurudāsa: When you remember who you are, you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela , his disciple, "I'm Nam Karoli." Guest (1): Nim Karoli. Gurudāsa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta , we're His servant. Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact. Gurudāsa: When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta . . . we should follow in his footsteps, "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee." Very humble. Then we can make advancement (CC Madhya 13.80). Guest (1): Mahārāja is teaching—you asked his teaching—these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve . . . Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself . . . Prabhupāda: You love? To whom you love? Guest (1): Whoever you're with. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): Whatever, whatever . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression? Guest (1): Well, certainly every being in the universe is a part of me. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . you can place your love to a particular person or particular community. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it mean you love the whole universe? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe? Guest (1): If I love America? Prabhupāda: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows. Guest (1): Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men . . . Prabhupāda: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance? Guest (1): You do your best. Prabhupāda: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love. Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is . . . Prabhupāda: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love. Guest (1): Well, certainly every . . . Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love . . . universe. He has contradicted . . . Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot love each being. That is my point. Śyāmasundara: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe. Śyāmasundara: She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. Prabhupāda: Then there is impure being and pure being? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it that a fact? Guest (1): Is that true? Prabhupāda: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being. Guest (1): It seems that way. Woman guest (3): The soul isn't impure. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality—purity of the soul. Guest (1): You love God. Prabhupāda: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul. Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . to my eyes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure. Guest (1): That's very difficult. Guest (3): I don't know what you're saying. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul? Guest (1): He was asking . . . Prabhupāda: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure. Devotee: How can we distinguish? Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure; there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā . . . Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā , His power of delusion, He can . . . He makes you think . . . He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world. Prabhupāda: So where from the māyā comes? Guest (1): From . . . I don't know. I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā . Gurudāsa: You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned . . . Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance. Gurudāsa: Well, which is first? Guest (1): Which is first? Which—ignorance or what? Gurudāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance? Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it. Gurudāsa: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe you can explain that. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant? Prabhupāda: We are. Gurudāsa: Yes. Guest (1): We are. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: As he said, when you forget, this ignorance. Guest (1): Yes. Gurudāsa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us? Prabhupāda: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance. Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness. Prabhupāda: He knows that. Guest (1): The sense of egoism, "I and me and mine," is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing. Prabhupāda: Then God and you are different, because you forget God, He . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa does not forget, and we forget, so there must be difference. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. So, to certain extent . . . Guest (1): Actually, that's the best attitude. Gurudāsa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said> "It seems," but we're saying "not seems" . . . Guest (1): That's because my . . . I've read so many things, some other types of philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now . . . (indistinct) . . . the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it? Guest (1): Yes, that follows. Prabhupāda: Then how you become ignorant? Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain. Prabhupāda: Everything is mystery. Guest (1): Is that your . . . is it a mystery? Gurudāsa: No. Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good. Someone has to. Gurudāsa: (indistinct) . . . to Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya , that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem: By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes. Śyāmasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer, then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own. Guest (1): No, you can't. Gurudāsa: Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the . . . we have the science of love of God. Many people say . . . the material scientists say "perhaps" or "about" 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came; five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship. Prabhupāda: This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God, but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant, in māyā ? So māyā becomes better than God. Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant . . . (indistinct) . . . God, how it happens? You said there is God. God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God He is, that He becomes ignorant sometimes? Gurudāsa: And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God. Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of māyā . He . . . Kṛṣṇa's pure. Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets. Gurudāsa: Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Now . . . that's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why go to others? Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability. I've read the *Gītā* , the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says? What Kṛṣṇa says? If Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa? *Gurudāsa: He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So what has come? Prabhupāda: Reading is not, I mean to say . . . Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no more greater truth than Me." Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), "I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. " So why should we go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Then you should take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy. Guest (1): "Where is Kṛṣṇa"? Prabhupāda: Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me. *Prabhupāda: No, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You give up everything; just surrender unto Me." So if you surrender, who forbids you? But if you don't, that is your business. Guest (1): How does one surrender? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You do not know, then you have to learn from one who is surrendered. But the position is this: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: ". . . (indistinct) . . . now. Now, sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like, you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep me." That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field, when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, "Surrender." That means "If you like, kill me. I throw down my weapon." People accept it. That's all. So He is the Supreme. If He likes, He can kill me; if He likes, He can save me. So I am subordinate. How can . . . I can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator? Devotee: Can't be. Guest (1): He is the Lord . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) One thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless, beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first . . . Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: If he has read Bhagavad*-gītā , that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā (BG 14.27), "I am the resort of Brahman." So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "Even Brahman emanates from Me." And actually it is so. Just like the sunshine is emanating from the sun globe. Although the sunshine is universal, but still dependent on the sun globe. Guest (1): Of course, that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course. Prabhupāda: That's good. Gurudāsa: Very nice. Guest (1): I wouldn't try to say that. Gurudāsa: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Very good. He's a good boy. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose. That only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, being all pervasive. He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you expect, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī , somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is Messiah, somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order. Gurudāsa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." That is not surrender. Guest (1): "I'll do whatever You want, but don't ask me to fight." *Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he said: "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa, that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes," then this is unity. This is unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct, and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is disunity, and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over," that is unity. Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot . . . that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings, they existed before, now we are existing, and we shall exist in future." So that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise, your existence, mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be. Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask what is . . . what is God's ultimate goal? What is . . . why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations . . . *Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance: "All right, enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . ." and giving instruction also that "You enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again." Just like a father. Children wants to play in the field. "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. It is now time up . . ." they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right, enjoy." And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that, "Now you give up all these things. You have enjoyed . . . (indistinct) . . . can come back," then your . . . He created for you. Same example I always give: Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating? It is unnecessary, it's premature, construction in jail work." But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy, "All right, for you. You enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying, then Kṛṣṇa says that "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be happy." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda —to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say: "Mr. Such*-and-such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall remain, void? Guest (1): No, that's impossible. Prabhupāda: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . good boy. Come on, I . . . so, you have . . . you are old . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) (end) (no audio, first part) Gurudāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: How many of you went? *Gurudāsa: Most everyone, about twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (audio starts) *Gurudāsa: At first they went to the Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana*-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi , and then I left, at Madana-mohana. Dr. Kapoor came this morning? Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: No? Śyāmasundara: All these boys and girls all went to sleep for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Thank you. You have come from where? Guest (1): Just now from the Hanumān Mandir , just down the road there, not far. But I'm . . . we're all from America. Prabhupāda: Here you are remaining there? Guest: We are there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Mohan?, a guesthouse just down to the right. Prabhupāda: Where is . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . he's delivering fruits and flowers. Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli. Prabhupāda: Nim Babari? Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask . . . he requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana , if you . . . if you wish. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible? Guest: I . . . I don't know. I'm just . . . he asked me to come and request it, so . . . Prabhupāda: We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested. Woman guest (2): There are thirty Westerners there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana . Prabhupāda: Thirty Westerners? Guest (1): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Oh. That, I have no objection, we can go,. . . (indistinct) . . . those are organizing. You are also staying? Woman guest (2): Yes. Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask. Gurudāsa: Do you have any . . . any other questions? Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment. Gurudāsa: You don't have to explain your presence you are most welcome. Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Where is the Deity? Devotee: Taking on saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: You get time, you can . . . Devotee: Saṅkīrtana , when you're ready. Gurudāsa: She (second woman guest) was attending all the lectures at the paṇḍāl in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen her. Gurudāsa: And Philadelphia also. Prabhupāda: So, you understand our philosophy? Woman guest (3): Understand . . .? Prabhupāda: Our philosophy? Guest (1): Philosophy. Woman guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Where? Woman guest (3): Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Woman guest (3): And we do the āratik and read all your books. Prabhupāda: Which book? Woman guest (3): *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, Lord Caitanya, *Kṛṣṇa Book* , and obviously . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke , with all the philosophers, and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them or . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy. Gurudāsa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin. Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good. Śyāmasundara: They tried, but they weren't . . . they weren't God conscious. They were recording in their own poor? life . . . (indistinct) . . . the truth. The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure . . . figure it out with their mind. *Prabhupāda: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, in the Western countries, they have . . . lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider this body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize . . . (indistinct) . . . if your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata . . . Śrīmad Bhāgavata , it is said that yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13): "Anyone, considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." (to guests) What is your philosophy? You don't take this body as the self? Guest (1): I . . . oh, no. Prabhupāda: You? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: Very good. So who is bringing my bedding? Śyāmasundara: Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara? I don't know. Gurudāsa: I've got the keys to that room also. Śyāmasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements. Prabhupāda: (to guests) So, what is your philosophy? Guest (1): My philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān , is the one absolute existence, but it has a delusive power, whereby . . . Prabhupāda: Who is that got delusive power? Guest (1): God, or . . . Devotee: God? Guest (1): . . . the māyā , the māyā of God makes . . . makes a man identify himself with his body. But it is . . . that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes . . . it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are . . . he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace. Prabhupāda: By God's grace, what happens? Guest (1): One cannot . . . one achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's . . . one no longer identifies himself with his body. Prabhupāda: So result of loving God, what it is? Guest (1): Without loving God? Devotee: No. Result. Prabhupāda: Result is what? Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes. Prabhupāda: What will come? Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God. Devotee: What is that union? Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it . . . it's called yoga , or it's samādhi . I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read. Prabhupāda: Samadhi is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity? Guest (1): What is the form of unity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): I . . . my understanding is that, that, er, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving Prabhupāda: Beyond form. Guest (1): . . . through loving the form of God . . . it has form and yet it's formless. It's both . . . has form and formless. Prabhupāda: What is that formlessness, and what is that form? Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? (laughs) My own knowledge is just very slight. Prabhupāda: You are not learning there, where you are staying? Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja . . . this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest. Prabhupāda: But love, if you have no form, where to love? The air? Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti , you love the form of God. Prabhupāda: But you said it's formless. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the . . . Prabhupāda: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy? Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true. Prabhupāda: Then. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love? Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me. Prabhupāda: What does he teach? Guest (1): He said . . . Prabhupāda: He teaches form? Guest (1): He says that . . . yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānjī. Prabhupāda: Who is Hanumān? Guest (1): Hanumān is the breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guest (1): The breath of Rāma, śvāsa . Rāma*-ke-śvāsa , breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Breath? Guest (1): The breath. Hanumān was the . . . Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?" and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve You." Prabhupāda: That's so nonsense. Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know . . . Gurudāsa: When you remember who you are, you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela , his disciple, "I'm Nam Karoli." Guest (1): Nim Karoli. Gurudāsa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta , we're His servant. Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact. Gurudāsa: When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta . . . we should follow in his footsteps, "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee." Very humble. Then we can make advancement (CC Madhya 13.80). Guest (1): Mahārāja is teaching—you asked his teaching—these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve . . . Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself . . . Prabhupāda: You love? To whom you love? Guest (1): Whoever you're with. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): Whatever, whatever . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression? Guest (1): Well, certainly every being in the universe is a part of me. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . you can place your love to a particular person or particular community. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it mean you love the whole universe? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe? Guest (1): If I love America? Prabhupāda: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows. Guest (1): Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men . . . Prabhupāda: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance? Guest (1): You do your best. Prabhupāda: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love. Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is . . . Prabhupāda: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love. Guest (1): Well, certainly every . . . Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love . . . universe. He has contradicted . . . Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot love each being. That is my point. Śyāmasundara: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe. Śyāmasundara: She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. Prabhupāda: Then there is impure being and pure being? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it that a fact? Guest (1): Is that true? Prabhupāda: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being. Guest (1): It seems that way. Woman guest (3): The soul isn't impure. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality—purity of the soul. Guest (1): You love God. Prabhupāda: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul. Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . to my eyes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure. Guest (1): That's very difficult. Guest (3): I don't know what you're saying. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul? Guest (1): He was asking . . . Prabhupāda: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure. Devotee: How can we distinguish? Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure; there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā . . . Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā , His power of delusion, He can . . . He makes you think . . . He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world. Prabhupāda: So where from the māyā comes? Guest (1): From . . . I don't know. I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā . Gurudāsa: You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned . . . Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance. Gurudāsa: Well, which is first? Guest (1): Which is first? Which—ignorance or what? Gurudāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance? Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it. Gurudāsa: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe you can explain that. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant? Prabhupāda: We are. Gurudāsa: Yes. Guest (1): We are. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: As he said, when you forget, this ignorance. Guest (1): Yes. Gurudāsa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us? Prabhupāda: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance. Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness. Prabhupāda: He knows that. Guest (1): The sense of egoism, "I and me and mine," is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing. Prabhupāda: Then God and you are different, because you forget God, He . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa does not forget, and we forget, so there must be difference. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. So, to certain extent . . . Guest (1): Actually, that's the best attitude. Gurudāsa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said> "It seems," but we're saying "not seems" . . . Guest (1): That's because my . . . I've read so many things, some other types of philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now . . . (indistinct) . . . the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it? Guest (1): Yes, that follows. Prabhupāda: Then how you become ignorant? Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain. Prabhupāda: Everything is mystery. Guest (1): Is that your . . . is it a mystery? Gurudāsa: No. Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good. Someone has to. Gurudāsa: (indistinct) . . . to Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya , that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem: By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes. Śyāmasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer, then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own. Guest (1): No, you can't. Gurudāsa: Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the . . . we have the science of love of God. Many people say . . . the material scientists say "perhaps" or "about" 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came; five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship. Prabhupāda: This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God, but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant, in māyā ? So māyā becomes better than God. Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant . . . (indistinct) . . . God, how it happens? You said there is God. God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God He is, that He becomes ignorant sometimes? Gurudāsa: And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God. Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of māyā . He . . . Kṛṣṇa's pure. Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets. Gurudāsa: Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Now . . . that's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why go to others? Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability. I've read the *Gītā* , the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says? What Kṛṣṇa says? If Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa? *Gurudāsa: He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So what has come? Prabhupāda: Reading is not, I mean to say . . . Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no more greater truth than Me." Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), "I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. " So why should we go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Then you should take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy. Guest (1): "Where is Kṛṣṇa"? Prabhupāda: Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me. *Prabhupāda: No, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You give up everything; just surrender unto Me." So if you surrender, who forbids you? But if you don't, that is your business. Guest (1): How does one surrender? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You do not know, then you have to learn from one who is surrendered. But the position is this: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: ". . . (indistinct) . . . now. Now, sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like, you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep me." That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field, when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, "Surrender." That means "If you like, kill me. I throw down my weapon." People accept it. That's all. So He is the Supreme. If He likes, He can kill me; if He likes, He can save me. So I am subordinate. How can . . . I can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator? Devotee: Can't be. Guest (1): He is the Lord . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) One thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless, beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first . . . Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: If he has read Bhagavad*-gītā , that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā (BG 14.27), "I am the resort of Brahman." So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "Even Brahman emanates from Me." And actually it is so. Just like the sunshine is emanating from the sun globe. Although the sunshine is universal, but still dependent on the sun globe. Guest (1): Of course, that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course. Prabhupāda: That's good. Gurudāsa: Very nice. Guest (1): I wouldn't try to say that. Gurudāsa: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Very good. He's a good boy. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose. That only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, being all pervasive. He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you expect, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī , somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is Messiah, somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order. Gurudāsa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." That is not surrender. Guest (1): "I'll do whatever You want, but don't ask me to fight." *Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he said: "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa, that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes," then this is unity. This is unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct, and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is disunity, and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over," that is unity. Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot . . . that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings, they existed before, now we are existing, and we shall exist in future." So that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise, your existence, mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be. Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask what is . . . what is God's ultimate goal? What is . . . why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations . . . *Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance: "All right, enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . ." and giving instruction also that "You enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again." Just like a father. Children wants to play in the field. "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. It is now time up . . ." they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right, enjoy." And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that, "Now you give up all these things. You have enjoyed . . . (indistinct) . . . can come back," then your . . . He created for you. Same example I always give: Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating? It is unnecessary, it's premature, construction in jail work." But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy, "All right, for you. You enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying, then Kṛṣṇa says that "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be happy." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda —to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say: "Mr. Such*-and-such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall remain, void? Guest (1): No, that's impossible. Prabhupāda: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . good boy. Come on, I . . . so, you have . . . you are old . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . even those who are farmers . . . (indistinct) . . . in India also. As soon as they get some education, they don't want to be a farmer. Gurudāsa: They're going to the cities. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be satisfied to become a petty clerk and get some very little income. They will be satisfied. They don't want to be . . . śūdra . That is the real śūdra . They are satisfied simply by eating, that's all. No ambition. *Gurudāsa: So somehow or other we have to attract some śūdras to our movement if we want to work self*-sufficiently. Prabhupāda: So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra , offer better price. But we will require more land. *Gurudāsa: We will require a self*-sufficient. Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. *Gurudāsa: Because of Kali*-yuga. And also everyone in Vṛndāvana that I mention that we are planning to have gośala , everyone likes the idea. That will be very popular here. Gośala , everyone, their eyes become bright. Prabhupāda: Make at least gośala , keep cows. That is also profitable. Gurudāsa: Yes, maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: One or two men may simply take care of the cows. Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: And grow grass, let them pasture. Gurudāsa: Yes, and plant trees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to utilize the land; otherwise what is the use? Gurudāsa: No, of course. Prabhupāda: Suppose we invest one lakh of rupees. One lakh rupees means 10,000 rupees per annum, almost 800, 900 rupees per month, yes interest. So we must utilize it. From this monetary point of view, because they get bank interest, people are not very interested in land. Gurudāsa: But you can't eat money. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: You can't eat money. Prabhupāda: Ultimately that is the . . . (aside) What? (break) . . . somehow or other, but it must be properly utilized. Who will give me massage? Satsvarūpa: Oh, Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So ask him. (break) . . . money. Gurudāsa: My point of . . . you can't eat money means that if it is in the bank earning interest . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: My point was if it is in the bank earning interest, we may die at any moment, so what is the point of in the bank? But if we have some land and utilizing it, it is a better investment. Prabhupāda: First you purchase, then we shall make program. For the time being, purchase. Actually that is money. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: When you sow it, it will bring more money. There will be no problem. Gurudāsa: In the old system, land and jewelry was riches. Prabhupāda: Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground, money? Gurudāsa: Presently I think gośala is more practical. Prabhupāda: There is another gośala , they are not utilizing, Panchayat Gośala. Why don't you try for that? They can give it free, that we shall . . . "Give us it, we shall utilize it for Kṛṣṇa." Gurudāsa: We can try. Prabhupāda: Find out who is Panchayat. "If we do not use for gośala , then you can take it back. But we shall utilize it for gośala . So why don't you give us the land?" Attached to the temple, we maintain a gośala . Gurudāsa: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Still we shall require to grow some food for the cows, and nice water supply. Then you simply keep the cows there. They will eat and drink and remain here peacefully. Only one room for watching. Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) . . . he was complaining when I have last time . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Basudever yata boi, ini sob gras kore niyechen. (All the books of Basudeva, he has taken all that.) Dr. Kapoor: I think he had given him the books for distribution. He is distributing them. Prabhupāda: But he was to give one house and so many things, then he was to distribute them, whatever. Dr. Kapoor: Huh? Prabhupāda: Sunchilum, Basudev oikhane bari debe . . . (indistinct) . . . (I heard that Basudeva will be given one residential place there . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) Bhagavān: . . . should we come back again. Prabhupāda: Apni ekbar asun amader oikhane. Paris. London. (You please come to all our places. Paris. London.) Indian Man: Radharani pathan amake. (Let Radharani send me.) Prabhupāda: Radharani pathabe. Khali kichu taka kharac korte hobe. Radharani pathaben. Amar mato ekjan adhamke pathalo! (Radharani will surely send you. Only you have to spend some money. Radharani will. She has sent an insignificant person like me.) Indian Man: Apnito Radharanir mission niye eschen. Kaj korchen to. (You have come for the mission of Radharani. You are working for that.) Prabhupāda: Apnio yaben to, mission niye yaben. (You will also go, with some mission.) Indian Man: So I said, Radharani . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Also, in Vṛndāvana we are here to stay, no matter what the people say. Dr. Kapoor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sob jagay te amader birodh. (We are facing opposition everywhere.) But we stay. Birodh tarpare matlab, lok bhangano . . . (indistinct) . . . kintu, yai hok theke ache. Gurubhairai yakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . oi asol, basic princlple ta holo himsa. Ei amader ekhane te esob holo, na holo . . . (indistinct) . . . Baro baro Maharaj ra sob, ar ei ekta cuno puti lok . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Madhav Maharaj to sunechi advertise koren double M.A. (Opposition, malice agenda . . . (indistinct) . . . anyways, that's alright. But when Godbrothers are . . . (indistinct) . . . but the main, basic principle is envy. That we couldn't make it happen like this . . . (indistinct) . . . they are such big big Mahārājas, and here is this tiny little fellow . . . (indistinct) . . . I heard that our Madhava Maharaja advertises himself to be a double M.A.) Dr. Kapoor: Ācchā . He is not a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: He is not a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You do not know? Dr. Kapoor: No, I don't know. I think he is a graduate. Huh? He's not even a graduate? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I was told that he was a graduate long ago, you see, when I used to go to Calcutta, the Gauḍīya Maṭh there. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Dr. Kapoor: And Bon Mahārāja also has told he is a graduate. What is he? Prabhupāda: What is he? Dr. Kapoor: Bon Mahārāja, graduate? He is Karachi graduate. Prabhupāda: No, I don't think so. Anyway, so Falanite ata sota, bikr belay kac kola (Bengali proverb). (Shows off alot but when it is a question of working, then they are nothing.) Bon Mahārāja, eiye, ye boi likhechen, (Bon Mahārāja has written a book,) very important. Dr. Kapoor: Boi likhechen, onek guli boi likhechen, tar madhye likhechen 'ami Bhagavan darshan peyechi, ei lila darshan korechi, sei lila darshan korechi. Sei sob likhechen. (He has written a book, he has written many books. He has written in that book that, "I have got the darshan of the Lord, I have seen this pastime, that pastime." He has written all this.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Etato keu lekhe na. (No one has written this.) (break) Bhagavān: Before I came, we had one big festival in Geneva for two days, Saturday and Sunday. Each night over 500 people. It was nice. Geneva's not very big. Prabhupāda: Geneva is important town. Bhagavān: Important. Not very big, though. Prabhupāda: International town. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: When I was going to London from Bombay . . . no, no, when I was going to Switzerland, I think I stopped at Geneva. Bhagavān: Zurich. You were in Zurich. Prabhupāda: Zurich; before that I stopped at Geneva. I saw the airport, very big airport. Then I went Zurich. And from Zurich I went to some Mount St . . . Bhagavān: St. Hellish. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have been there? You are right, St. Hellish . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: (laughs) Śyāmasundara. Prabhupāda: Yes, Śyāmasundara, "Oh, I have to . . ." He spent money for that. I thought, "It is hellish." (laughter) Always covered with snow. I could not get out. Two days I was imprisoned in that hotel room. But people go there. Yamunā: For health. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yamunā: For their health. Prabhupāda: What is the health there? But one wonderful I saw from there. Down 10,000 feet . . . (indistinct) . . . hill. Bhagavān: Mountain. Prabhupāda: Mountain, yes. Down I saw the railway is going on. (break) . . . has entered the sky. That is it. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and the railway is very nice. Not like Darjeeling. Dr. Kapoor: You have to leave just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. I was to leave this morning, but I was to eat Yamunā's cooking . . . (indistinct) . . . cooking. Cooking was very nice, but I had no appetite. Yamunā: Appetite. No appetite. Prabhupāda: From yesterday lost my appetite. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because I was massaging you from yesterday. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, that's not. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace to have less appetite, I think. Less sleep, less appetite, it is good. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . They conquered over, but I have not conquered it. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is reduced. Satsvarūpa: May I have the key to the almirah, put these books away? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) You have got the duplicate key? So I can take this key? Gurudāsa: Yes, I've given it to Guṇārṇava just now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: I've given it to Guṇārṇava this morning, the duplicate. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Yamunā: So I will not live in this place. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yamunā: I will not live in your house, but I will work here. Because there is some objection from the boys, a lady living here. Prabhupāda: Apnar sange er sange dekha hoyechilo? Hari Gosvai. (Did you meet that gentleman? Hari Gosvai.) Dr. Kapoor: Hari Gosvai er sange dekha hoyeche. (Yes I met Hari Gosvai.) Prabhupāda: Uni ki bolen? (What did he say?) Dr. Kapoor: Ki bolen mane . . . (Means nothing as such . . .) He did not attend that meeting. So he doesn't have any first hand information. Prabhupāda: Apni o to chilen, apni dekhen ni? (You were also there in that meeting, you did not see?) Dr. Kapoor: Na. (No.) They didn't invite me. Prabhupāda: Ta meeting ta kiser? (What was the meeting about?) Dr. Kapoor: All the gosvāmīs. A representative gathering of all the gosvāmīs. *Prabhupāda: All the gosvāmīs . . . (indistinct) . . . all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs? *Dr. Kapoor: No, not all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs. The Rādhā-Damodara gosvāmīs are represented by . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: They were represented by . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī and Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī, but the gosvāmīs of the other temples. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Yamunā: Rādhā*-Dāmodara's were there? *Dr. Kapoor: Rādhā*-Dāmodara was there. Yes. *Yamunā: Yesterday Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī was little bit rude, yesterday. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? To you? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Yamunā: He was angry because he had locked the door and locked me outside, and I knocked on the door until he came, and he was angry. He was a little rude. So I could tell something was wrong. Gurudāsa: Because usually he is not so rude. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: Usually he is not rude. Yamunā: He is never harsh. He was a little harsh. I could tell something was wrong. Prabhupāda: So they are planning something. Dr. Kapoor: I don't know exactly. I've not been able to make out what their plans are exactly, because they don't tell me everything. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: They don't tell me everything. They have something up their sleeves. I don't know what. Gurudāsa: So what should be our . . . *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī, other time he was not harsh? Yamunā: Not to me. To Gurudāsa maybe, but never me. Prabhupāda: But this time he was harsh? Yamunā: Yes, very harsh. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Yamunā: He was yelling. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Yamunā: He was yelling, raising his voice. He wasn't speaking in a quiet tone, he was yelling at me, "Why you are disturbing my sevā*-pūjā by making me come to the door?" I said: "I am engaged in Vaiṣṇava sevā as well. Vaiṣṇava sevā and Kṛṣṇa sevā . You please excuse me." I was very courteous, but he was harsh. Prabhupāda: So he was on the door? Yamunā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana temple door? Yamunā: Yes, putting the wooden bolt so I can't come inside. Yesterday this was. After leaving here for pravacana and going there, he had locked the gate. Then I knocked until he came. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī or Rādhā-Ramaṇa? *Yamunā: No, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Prabhupāda: So what business you have to go to Madana*-Mohana temple at that time? *Yamunā: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī of Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. Prabhupāda: Ohhhh. Yamunā: Gaurachand's other side, where we live. *Prabhupāda: Ah, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. I thought from Madana-Mohana temple. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Well, what about this Gaurachand Gosvāmī? Yamunā: He is calling for Gurudāsa sometimes. We don't speak so much. I don't see him because he isn't doing worship for the Deity of Dāmodara any more. So he is quiet, stays in the background. I think he wants sometimes a little money. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: I think he is having a little difficulty with money, so he asks sometimes. Prabhupāda: Some help? Yamunā: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Does he? Gurudāsa: Not very often, sometimes. Yamunā: Otherwise we don't see so much. But now I find he moved from Dāmodara. Gurudāsa: The last time I saw him, he said he wants Panchu to work for us. He said he . . . Prabhupāda: So what he will work? What he will work? Gurudāsa: He says he will do anything. Prabhupāda: Anything, but what anything? What? Gurudāsa: Right now we have no work except construction. So what should I tell him when I see him? Prabhupāda: What about? Gurudāsa: If he asks what about Panchu working there? Prabhupāda: So what kind of work you can provide? Is there any work for him? Gurudāsa: Only now construction. Prabhupāda: The construction, what he will do? He has no experience. Now see this gosvāmī , worshiping Deity, now he has no worshiping job, "Give me construction work." Gurudāsa: When we start our Deity program, should we . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. Gurudāsa: No paid? Prabhupāda: No pay, neither . . . he smokes. Gurudāsa: Suppose he will join us and shave head and give up bīḍīs , then he can . . . Prabhupāda: That will take six life. (laughter) Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante ( BG 7.19). It is not so easy. It is not so easy. To give up all these things, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But they are not meant for that. But for money's sake, business' sake, they can take any shape. That is another thing. At least they will not be able to give up bīḍīs . That is not possible. They may be gosvāmī for everything, not for bīḍī . Ki bolen? (What do you say?) Indian Man: Na, ta thik bolchen bate. (Yes, you are saying right.) Prabhupāda: Sob bisay te hote pare, oi . . . oi ta parbe na. Babajio tai. (They can do everything except that. Babaji is also like that.) Indian Man: Yodi Bhagavaner darshan pay, Bhagavan balen 'tumi ki cao balo', to bolbe amar kono bidita kharap korben na'. (If they got the Darshan of the Lord and the Lord asks them what do you want, then they will say: "Kindly don't damage this bīḍī .") (chuckles) Dr. Kapoor: So Prabhupāda, I have an engagement at 4:30. I came only to see you because Nirvāsi told me that you were leaving. Prabhupāda: Ta, asun apni. (Okay, goodbye then.) Gurudāsa: So is there any instructions about this gosvāmī business that you have? Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī business? What gosvāmī business? Gurudāsa: These gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana that are agitated. Prabhupāda: No, I have not received any letter from them. Unless we receive a letter, how we can say anything? Dr. Kapoor: I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī and the other gosvāmīs also that Prabhupāda is in a very conciliatory mood, and if you make a proper approach, he is prepared to make proper amends for whatever has been taken in bad . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: But the approach should be proper. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: The approach should be proper. Prabhupāda: Yes. You told him? Dr. Kapoor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: I told him about the drafts, you see, that you made the other day. I said: "Prabhupāda has only agreed. It was so magnanimous of him, so magnanimous." *Prabhupāda: Yes, I told you Friday, you write, I shall sign it. And why they are agitating and stopped such a function? And that is very regrettable. Gosvāmī means vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegaṁ viṣaheta (Upadeśāmṛta 1). If there is some krodha , he should tolerate. Now here is a Vaiṣṇava, he has done so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the reception was there, and he stopped. How he is gosvāmī? He expressed his krodha in that very moment, just to take retaliation. It is not gosvāmī. What do you think? Krodha-vegam . It is a krodha , but he could not tolerate that krodha-vegam . *He retaliated at the right moment and to a person, fit person, who was to be honored. Just see. And he claims to be gosvāmī. The first business is vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam . The Vaikuṇṭha mentality is that if one is serving—I have read it in Bhāgavata —Kṛṣṇa better than somebody else, he would simply appreciate that, "Kṛṣṇa has so much favored him. Oh, how fortunate he is. When I shall be able?" That is Vaikuṇṭha mentality. And the material mentality is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. How to cut down him?" That is material. This is the difference between Vaikuṇṭha mentality. So his business is how to cut down. So he is not a gosvāmī. At least I will not accept. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Dr. Kapoor: Of course you are. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: What shall I say? (chuckles) *Prabhupāda: This is the definition of gosvāmī. Vāco vegam krodha*-vegam udaro-vegam pastha-vegam etān manasaḥ vegam , etān vegān viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). So he has not proved to be very dhīra . Dhīrādhīra-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau (Śrīnivāsa Ācārya). So that is my regret, that these people cannot appreciate the service of a Vaiṣṇava. They are simply personally interested. Personally interested is materialistic way of life. Everybody is personally interested. (break) Dr. Kapoor: I think after he returns he will do something. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: He might do something after he returns. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall see to it. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . even those who are farmers . . . (indistinct) . . . in India also. As soon as they get some education, they don't want to be a farmer. Gurudāsa: They're going to the cities. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be satisfied to become a petty clerk and get some very little income. They will be satisfied. They don't want to be . . . śūdra . That is the real śūdra . They are satisfied simply by eating, that's all. No ambition. *Gurudāsa: So somehow or other we have to attract some śūdras to our movement if we want to work self*-sufficiently. Prabhupāda: So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra , offer better price. But we will require more land. *Gurudāsa: We will require a self*-sufficient. Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. *Gurudāsa: Because of Kali*-yuga. And also everyone in Vṛndāvana that I mention that we are planning to have gośala , everyone likes the idea. That will be very popular here. Gośala , everyone, their eyes become bright. Prabhupāda: Make at least gośala , keep cows. That is also profitable. Gurudāsa: Yes, maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: One or two men may simply take care of the cows. Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: And grow grass, let them pasture. Gurudāsa: Yes, and plant trees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to utilize the land; otherwise what is the use? Gurudāsa: No, of course. Prabhupāda: Suppose we invest one lakh of rupees. One lakh rupees means 10,000 rupees per annum, almost 800, 900 rupees per month, yes interest. So we must utilize it. From this monetary point of view, because they get bank interest, people are not very interested in land. Gurudāsa: But you can't eat money. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: You can't eat money. Prabhupāda: Ultimately that is the . . . (aside) What? (break) . . . somehow or other, but it must be properly utilized. Who will give me massage? Satsvarūpa: Oh, Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So ask him. (break) . . . money. Gurudāsa: My point of . . . you can't eat money means that if it is in the bank earning interest . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: My point was if it is in the bank earning interest, we may die at any moment, so what is the point of in the bank? But if we have some land and utilizing it, it is a better investment. Prabhupāda: First you purchase, then we shall make program. For the time being, purchase. Actually that is money. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: When you sow it, it will bring more money. There will be no problem. Gurudāsa: In the old system, land and jewelry was riches. Prabhupāda: Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground, money? Gurudāsa: Presently I think gośala is more practical. Prabhupāda: There is another gośala , they are not utilizing, Panchayat Gośala. Why don't you try for that? They can give it free, that we shall . . . "Give us it, we shall utilize it for Kṛṣṇa." Gurudāsa: We can try. Prabhupāda: Find out who is Panchayat. "If we do not use for gośala , then you can take it back. But we shall utilize it for gośala . So why don't you give us the land?" Attached to the temple, we maintain a gośala . Gurudāsa: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Still we shall require to grow some food for the cows, and nice water supply. Then you simply keep the cows there. They will eat and drink and remain here peacefully. Only one room for watching. Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) . . . he was complaining when I have last time . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Basudever yata boi, ini sob gras kore niyechen. (All the books of Basudeva, he has taken all that.) Dr. Kapoor: I think he had given him the books for distribution. He is distributing them. Prabhupāda: But he was to give one house and so many things, then he was to distribute them, whatever. Dr. Kapoor: Huh? Prabhupāda: Sunchilum, Basudev oikhane bari debe . . . (indistinct) . . . (I heard that Basudeva will be given one residential place there . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) Bhagavān: . . . should we come back again. Prabhupāda: Apni ekbar asun amader oikhane. Paris. London. (You please come to all our places. Paris. London.) Indian Man: Radharani pathan amake. (Let Radharani send me.) Prabhupāda: Radharani pathabe. Khali kichu taka kharac korte hobe. Radharani pathaben. Amar mato ekjan adhamke pathalo! (Radharani will surely send you. Only you have to spend some money. Radharani will. She has sent an insignificant person like me.) Indian Man: Apnito Radharanir mission niye eschen. Kaj korchen to. (You have come for the mission of Radharani. You are working for that.) Prabhupāda: Apnio yaben to, mission niye yaben. (You will also go, with some mission.) Indian Man: So I said, Radharani . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Also, in Vṛndāvana we are here to stay, no matter what the people say. Dr. Kapoor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sob jagay te amader birodh. (We are facing opposition everywhere.) But we stay. Birodh tarpare matlab, lok bhangano . . . (indistinct) . . . kintu, yai hok theke ache. Gurubhairai yakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . oi asol, basic princlple ta holo himsa. Ei amader ekhane te esob holo, na holo . . . (indistinct) . . . Baro baro Maharaj ra sob, ar ei ekta cuno puti lok . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Madhav Maharaj to sunechi advertise koren double M.A. (Opposition, malice agenda . . . (indistinct) . . . anyways, that's alright. But when Godbrothers are . . . (indistinct) . . . but the main, basic principle is envy. That we couldn't make it happen like this . . . (indistinct) . . . they are such big big Mahārājas, and here is this tiny little fellow . . . (indistinct) . . . I heard that our Madhava Maharaja advertises himself to be a double M.A.) Dr. Kapoor: Ācchā . He is not a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: He is not a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You do not know? Dr. Kapoor: No, I don't know. I think he is a graduate. Huh? He's not even a graduate? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I was told that he was a graduate long ago, you see, when I used to go to Calcutta, the Gauḍīya Maṭh there. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Dr. Kapoor: And Bon Mahārāja also has told he is a graduate. What is he? Prabhupāda: What is he? Dr. Kapoor: Bon Mahārāja, graduate? He is Karachi graduate. Prabhupāda: No, I don't think so. Anyway, so Falanite ata sota, bikr belay kac kola (Bengali proverb). (Shows off alot but when it is a question of working, then they are nothing.) Bon Mahārāja, eiye, ye boi likhechen, (Bon Mahārāja has written a book,) very important. Dr. Kapoor: Boi likhechen, onek guli boi likhechen, tar madhye likhechen 'ami Bhagavan darshan peyechi, ei lila darshan korechi, sei lila darshan korechi. Sei sob likhechen. (He has written a book, he has written many books. He has written in that book that, "I have got the darshan of the Lord, I have seen this pastime, that pastime." He has written all this.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Etato keu lekhe na. (No one has written this.) (break) Bhagavān: Before I came, we had one big festival in Geneva for two days, Saturday and Sunday. Each night over 500 people. It was nice. Geneva's not very big. Prabhupāda: Geneva is important town. Bhagavān: Important. Not very big, though. Prabhupāda: International town. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: When I was going to London from Bombay . . . no, no, when I was going to Switzerland, I think I stopped at Geneva. Bhagavān: Zurich. You were in Zurich. Prabhupāda: Zurich; before that I stopped at Geneva. I saw the airport, very big airport. Then I went Zurich. And from Zurich I went to some Mount St . . . Bhagavān: St. Hellish. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have been there? You are right, St. Hellish . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: (laughs) Śyāmasundara. Prabhupāda: Yes, Śyāmasundara, "Oh, I have to . . ." He spent money for that. I thought, "It is hellish." (laughter) Always covered with snow. I could not get out. Two days I was imprisoned in that hotel room. But people go there. Yamunā: For health. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yamunā: For their health. Prabhupāda: What is the health there? But one wonderful I saw from there. Down 10,000 feet . . . (indistinct) . . . hill. Bhagavān: Mountain. Prabhupāda: Mountain, yes. Down I saw the railway is going on. (break) . . . has entered the sky. That is it. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and the railway is very nice. Not like Darjeeling. Dr. Kapoor: You have to leave just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. I was to leave this morning, but I was to eat Yamunā's cooking . . . (indistinct) . . . cooking. Cooking was very nice, but I had no appetite. Yamunā: Appetite. No appetite. Prabhupāda: From yesterday lost my appetite. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because I was massaging you from yesterday. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, that's not. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace to have less appetite, I think. Less sleep, less appetite, it is good. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . They conquered over, but I have not conquered it. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is reduced. Satsvarūpa: May I have the key to the almirah, put these books away? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) You have got the duplicate key? So I can take this key? Gurudāsa: Yes, I've given it to Guṇārṇava just now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: I've given it to Guṇārṇava this morning, the duplicate. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Yamunā: So I will not live in this place. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yamunā: I will not live in your house, but I will work here. Because there is some objection from the boys, a lady living here. Prabhupāda: Apnar sange er sange dekha hoyechilo? Hari Gosvai. (Did you meet that gentleman? Hari Gosvai.) Dr. Kapoor: Hari Gosvai er sange dekha hoyeche. (Yes I met Hari Gosvai.) Prabhupāda: Uni ki bolen? (What did he say?) Dr. Kapoor: Ki bolen mane . . . (Means nothing as such . . .) He did not attend that meeting. So he doesn't have any first hand information. Prabhupāda: Apni o to chilen, apni dekhen ni? (You were also there in that meeting, you did not see?) Dr. Kapoor: Na. (No.) They didn't invite me. Prabhupāda: Ta meeting ta kiser? (What was the meeting about?) Dr. Kapoor: All the gosvāmīs. A representative gathering of all the gosvāmīs. *Prabhupāda: All the gosvāmīs . . . (indistinct) . . . all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs? *Dr. Kapoor: No, not all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs. The Rādhā-Damodara gosvāmīs are represented by . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: They were represented by . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī and Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī, but the gosvāmīs of the other temples. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Yamunā: Rādhā*-Dāmodara's were there? *Dr. Kapoor: Rādhā*-Dāmodara was there. Yes. *Yamunā: Yesterday Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī was little bit rude, yesterday. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? To you? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Yamunā: He was angry because he had locked the door and locked me outside, and I knocked on the door until he came, and he was angry. He was a little rude. So I could tell something was wrong. Gurudāsa: Because usually he is not so rude. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: Usually he is not rude. Yamunā: He is never harsh. He was a little harsh. I could tell something was wrong. Prabhupāda: So they are planning something. Dr. Kapoor: I don't know exactly. I've not been able to make out what their plans are exactly, because they don't tell me everything. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: They don't tell me everything. They have something up their sleeves. I don't know what. Gurudāsa: So what should be our . . . *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī, other time he was not harsh? Yamunā: Not to me. To Gurudāsa maybe, but never me. Prabhupāda: But this time he was harsh? Yamunā: Yes, very harsh. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Yamunā: He was yelling. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Yamunā: He was yelling, raising his voice. He wasn't speaking in a quiet tone, he was yelling at me, "Why you are disturbing my sevā*-pūjā by making me come to the door?" I said: "I am engaged in Vaiṣṇava sevā as well. Vaiṣṇava sevā and Kṛṣṇa sevā . You please excuse me." I was very courteous, but he was harsh. Prabhupāda: So he was on the door? Yamunā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana temple door? Yamunā: Yes, putting the wooden bolt so I can't come inside. Yesterday this was. After leaving here for pravacana and going there, he had locked the gate. Then I knocked until he came. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī or Rādhā-Ramaṇa? *Yamunā: No, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Prabhupāda: So what business you have to go to Madana*-Mohana temple at that time? *Yamunā: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī of Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. Prabhupāda: Ohhhh. Yamunā: Gaurachand's other side, where we live. *Prabhupāda: Ah, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. I thought from Madana-Mohana temple. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Well, what about this Gaurachand Gosvāmī? Yamunā: He is calling for Gurudāsa sometimes. We don't speak so much. I don't see him because he isn't doing worship for the Deity of Dāmodara any more. So he is quiet, stays in the background. I think he wants sometimes a little money. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: I think he is having a little difficulty with money, so he asks sometimes. Prabhupāda: Some help? Yamunā: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Does he? Gurudāsa: Not very often, sometimes. Yamunā: Otherwise we don't see so much. But now I find he moved from Dāmodara. Gurudāsa: The last time I saw him, he said he wants Panchu to work for us. He said he . . . Prabhupāda: So what he will work? What he will work? Gurudāsa: He says he will do anything. Prabhupāda: Anything, but what anything? What? Gurudāsa: Right now we have no work except construction. So what should I tell him when I see him? Prabhupāda: What about? Gurudāsa: If he asks what about Panchu working there? Prabhupāda: So what kind of work you can provide? Is there any work for him? Gurudāsa: Only now construction. Prabhupāda: The construction, what he will do? He has no experience. Now see this gosvāmī , worshiping Deity, now he has no worshiping job, "Give me construction work." Gurudāsa: When we start our Deity program, should we . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. Gurudāsa: No paid? Prabhupāda: No pay, neither . . . he smokes. Gurudāsa: Suppose he will join us and shave head and give up bīḍīs , then he can . . . Prabhupāda: That will take six life. (laughter) Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante ( BG 7.19). It is not so easy. It is not so easy. To give up all these things, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But they are not meant for that. But for money's sake, business' sake, they can take any shape. That is another thing. At least they will not be able to give up bīḍīs . That is not possible. They may be gosvāmī for everything, not for bīḍī . Ki bolen? (What do you say?) Indian Man: Na, ta thik bolchen bate. (Yes, you are saying right.) Prabhupāda: Sob bisay te hote pare, oi . . . oi ta parbe na. Babajio tai. (They can do everything except that. Babaji is also like that.) Indian Man: Yodi Bhagavaner darshan pay, Bhagavan balen 'tumi ki cao balo', to bolbe amar kono bidita kharap korben na'. (If they got the Darshan of the Lord and the Lord asks them what do you want, then they will say: "Kindly don't damage this bīḍī .") (chuckles) Dr. Kapoor: So Prabhupāda, I have an engagement at 4:30. I came only to see you because Nirvāsi told me that you were leaving. Prabhupāda: Ta, asun apni. (Okay, goodbye then.) Gurudāsa: So is there any instructions about this gosvāmī business that you have? Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī business? What gosvāmī business? Gurudāsa: These gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana that are agitated. Prabhupāda: No, I have not received any letter from them. Unless we receive a letter, how we can say anything? Dr. Kapoor: I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī and the other gosvāmīs also that Prabhupāda is in a very conciliatory mood, and if you make a proper approach, he is prepared to make proper amends for whatever has been taken in bad . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: But the approach should be proper. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: The approach should be proper. Prabhupāda: Yes. You told him? Dr. Kapoor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: I told him about the drafts, you see, that you made the other day. I said: "Prabhupāda has only agreed. It was so magnanimous of him, so magnanimous." *Prabhupāda: Yes, I told you Friday, you write, I shall sign it. And why they are agitating and stopped such a function? And that is very regrettable. Gosvāmī means vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegaṁ viṣaheta (Upadeśāmṛta 1). If there is some krodha , he should tolerate. Now here is a Vaiṣṇava, he has done so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the reception was there, and he stopped. How he is gosvāmī? He expressed his krodha in that very moment, just to take retaliation. It is not gosvāmī. What do you think? Krodha-vegam . It is a krodha , but he could not tolerate that krodha-vegam . *He retaliated at the right moment and to a person, fit person, who was to be honored. Just see. And he claims to be gosvāmī. The first business is vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam . The Vaikuṇṭha mentality is that if one is serving—I have read it in Bhāgavata —Kṛṣṇa better than somebody else, he would simply appreciate that, "Kṛṣṇa has so much favored him. Oh, how fortunate he is. When I shall be able?" That is Vaikuṇṭha mentality. And the material mentality is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. How to cut down him?" That is material. This is the difference between Vaikuṇṭha mentality. So his business is how to cut down. So he is not a gosvāmī. At least I will not accept. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Dr. Kapoor: Of course you are. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: What shall I say? (chuckles) *Prabhupāda: This is the definition of gosvāmī. Vāco vegam krodha*-vegam udaro-vegam pastha-vegam etān manasaḥ vegam , etān vegān viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). So he has not proved to be very dhīra . Dhīrādhīra-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau (Śrīnivāsa Ācārya). So that is my regret, that these people cannot appreciate the service of a Vaiṣṇava. They are simply personally interested. Personally interested is materialistic way of life. Everybody is personally interested. (break) Dr. Kapoor: I think after he returns he will do something. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: He might do something after he returns. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall see to it. (end) (Conversations with Sannyasis ) Śyāmasundara: . . . seeing how the money is spent, everything is going nice. It is organized, and everything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Management. Management means everything is in order; otherwise what is the use of assembling together? Śyāmasundara: If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes, though, it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I . . . I went ahead and bathed, because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for āratik . So I said: "If you are not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to āratik . But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is next, then you can say: "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up," "All right, I'm waking up . . . (indistinct) . . ." But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the āratik . Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the . . . up into the temple for the āratik , so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik . Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask to leave. Yes. Not that fighting. Hayagrīva: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: I just want to say one thing, that this . . . then I'll leave, because this is a meeting of the management here. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I'm concerned, that was very . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) That I have . . . (indistinct) . . . later. Hayagrīva: That was very cruel. It looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. It looked criminal. So, I don't think, uh . . . if it happened to me I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That's not good, under any circumstance. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That was not a very . . . (indistinct) *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like this. So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask: "When he is coming . . . (indistinct) . . .?" As soon as it is five, immediately I ask. So there may be more persons, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping, the kīrtana is going on, or morning prayer is going on, so he maybe said that: "If we sleep like that, then you cannot do it." Devotee: I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why did you . . . off something, pour water on his body? Devotee: Simply to wake him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Aggressively. Prabhupāda: So, best thing was to say that he is not in good shape; say to me that he is incorrigible. And I could have asked him . . . (indistinct) . . . he would have finished. He may give one day, once, twice - if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also . . . the police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody." What can I answer? Devotee: How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: Now here is the . . . (indistinct) . . . he says that nobody rises early in the morning. Just like yourself. Śyāmasundara: But he is rising. Devotee: I am, I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others! Pañcadraviḍa: Some others are rising. Not . . . not all, but some of them are rising. Śyāmasundara: The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That's their job. That's why you've taken . . . Prabhupāda: But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who will continually disobey, he should be respectfully asked, "Please go." You cannot . . . that . . . Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to say to somebody, "Please go," though? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to tell a person, "Please go"? We don't know who. I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Śyāmasundara: Yes it does. In US . . . Acyutānanda: No, no it doesn't. They do not respect sannyāsīs . (devotees all talk at once) Śyāmasundara: Because you may not deserve it, then. Acyutānanda: Now I'm getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like that, but behind my back people are talking, saying this . . . Prabhupāda: Now if they do not also obey the orders of the sannyāsī , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice of higher, or some official, president. Then steps should be taken that, "If you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave." It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī , leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations, and then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times, "Please leave." Like that. Śyāmasundara: If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected. Acyutānanda: Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one . . . Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to other center. Acyutānanda: I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you are making so much preaching, why, to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . Devotee: This was not a paltry reason. Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and . . . that is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something is being wrong . . . he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our work. Śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ . By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my . . . (indistinct) . . . because they are . . . they are . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible . . . after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be . . . "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Pañcadraviḍa: Engage him. *Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money. What can be done? But I don't think that if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required . . . (indistinct) . . . after all, human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya (Lord Caitanya). We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep . . . (indistinct) . . . how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere , first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me just like I , I . . . (indistinct) . . . this way. We have to do like that. Not that I "Comand, you do this. Oh, you cannot do? Get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that, "You do not . . . (indistinct) . . ." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra, you. He was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from . . . (indistinct) . . . so you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take . . . of course in some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is preferred . . . otherwise, regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water, sunshine. Whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise, everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service by six o'clock or five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should know everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real benefit. See in the early in the morning. So many parties come. *Śyāmasundara: From three*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself, and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning. We have got our duties. *Śyāmasundara: Just like yesterday, Dvija*-hari came over and he said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean over at Keśi-ghāṭa. So I said: "Well there are so many sannyāsīs there. Ask them to organize a cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one will clean. They don't want to do it." So . . . Prabhupāda: Why not some . . . some people clean like this, you have to get cleaning . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: If they won't, then you show them how. You . . . you do it also. Acyutānanda: . . . because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group, and it left for other parties. Śyāmasundara: No, but I am just saying, there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it because they are following your examples. Acyutānanda: I'm cleaning my room; I'm cleaning outside also. I don't . . . seen it. Śyāmasundara: I'm not criticizing, I'm just . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done, you should be followed like that, that āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . This should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly. Then it will be . . . everyone should remain cleansed, everyone should rise early in the morning, begin to work, comes to . . . everyone routine work. So then you can ask them, "Why you are not trying? Why you are not . . ." Then he will accept . . . (indistinct) . . . but this principle should be followed, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . Is it not? Acyutānanda: Yes. Well, for myself in particular, I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . They have . . . behind my back I hear all kinds of things they are saying. So nobody takes my words seriously. Even though I may quote from any scripture right, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is that māyā ? Songs are māyā ? Acyutānanda: As soon as I left Calcutta, then all the bhajanas , they are all, "Oh, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then, "Okay, the songs are alright, but the tunes are poison." Now how can I overcome that? Pañcadraviḍa: I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta. You wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said . . . and he had signed a letter something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja." And you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say 'Guru Mahārāja' we always say name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in . . . as vague 'Guru Mahārāja.' " So we were singing, jaya prabhupāda, jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Acyutānanda: Also he says: " Nitāi*-gaura haribol , that is also . . . that's māyā ." So, what is that? Pañcadraviḍa: And so he was saying that all these bhajanas , they are . . . they are not bona fide, because they are, have . . . Prabhupāda: He said: " Gaura haribol is not bona fide?" Who said, bona fide? Pañcadraviḍa: Oh, not that. He was saying jaya gurudeva, jaya prabhupāda , that is not good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I said, was saying, that is not good, jaya gurudeva , because it does not say who, it just says gurudeva . It could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was criticizing? Pañcadraviḍa: Bhavānanda. Because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalist to the letter. Acyutānanda: So it means I am a Māyāvādī, that's what it means. Pañcadraviḍa: Well . . . Śyāmasundara: It's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual, specific things. Acyutānanda: That overall I'm a Māyāvādī. Devotee: I find an overall bad atmosphere in India. Resentment against many of the devotees. Party politics and different things like that are going on. It's not limited, it's going on all over India. Acyutānanda: That's so . . . Devotee: Very heavy. *Śyāmasundara: Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has the respect of everyone now, because he is doing such a good job of managing, and he's just, he's doing, he's performing nicely his devotional work, and he's getting some results. That's respect. Then you'll get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he's built up ISKCON Press 'till it's just like (snaps fingers) that, and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he's performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere's bad . . ." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated paramahamsa . We are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancy here and there. So generally with our . . . general rules are . . . (indistinct) . . . common. First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and be ready for our performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there. Pañcadraviḍa: In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early. Anything that interferes with them doing as . . . exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa . Prabhupāda: This is a fact. So how to correct it? If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct? Pañcadraviḍa: Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense and if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things. And that is separatism because it's not in . . . falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place. *Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract. When people are attracted by seeing your behavior, they are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are . . ." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere : we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be effective. Another—this is general principle—now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing, that Keśi*-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property all this be dropped? What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now . . . because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient bank balance, such a big temple. Devotee: I don't . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . Prabhupāda: At the present it is not. Devotee: It's so big. It's so big. Devotee (2): Most of the quality of people that are there are . . . less people of a higher quality in a smaller place, it would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still the work would go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this what with we're having right now. I could avoid it completely because I was . . . there was nobody there to cause it—all new people. Śyāmasundara: Everybody here knows everything. (laughter) Like . . . Devotee (2): And it goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it would be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is your suggestion? Devotee (2): That we start a small center and then develop it gradually, with less . . . with less inexperienced people . . . Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (3): Well, we're not saying that it . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point. Devotee (2): At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave. Our visas will be taken away, and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a . . . it is not a . . . it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already—Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage . . . Prabhupāda: At Singapore our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): This has happened. Devotee (3): There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know. Prabhupāda: That Singapore, legally our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: They wouldn't even let you in. *Devotee (3): I think that his point . . . I think we spoke about this in Manila, was that anywhere in the world, in, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area, or are in an area, and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti*-yoga, engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that that has more effect than . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's more successful. Devotee (3): . . . than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who's doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I know the difficulty they're having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it's more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations . . . Devotee: Right. Śyāmasundara: . . . they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): And if the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . It can't be a negative ass thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person. Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees? Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta. We have our base in Bombay. Those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating this property. Devotees: No, no. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know . . . if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): . . . then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally. Śyāmasundara: Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available. Devotee (3): I don't think we need to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): I think that if we . . . if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (3): If we have devotees then . . . Śyāmasundara: That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all . . . we have seen that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Prabhupāda: No management. Devotee (2): No management. Pañcadraviḍa: As far as the men, since I think a lot are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States, you've divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. Śyāmasundara: That's a good idea. Prabhupāda: That's good. So you make like that. Śyāmasundara: That's what . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four . . . twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Śyāmasundara: But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes. Prabhupāda: That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee (3): Yes. Śyāmasundara: Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad, and we can ask him to do it. Prabhupāda: Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak, and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī , one of the biggest sannyāsīs , Gangeshvara, he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource; men and money he has. Immense resource. Śyāmasundara: We have to be careful not to . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . not to offend these people, the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . spiritual leaders. Prabhupāda: So, not offense. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything . . . everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible, even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everybody. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end) (Conversations with Sannyasis ) Śyāmasundara: . . . seeing how the money is spent, everything is going nice. It is organized, and everything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Management. Management means everything is in order; otherwise what is the use of assembling together? Śyāmasundara: If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes, though, it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I . . . I went ahead and bathed, because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for āratik . So I said: "If you are not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to āratik . But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is next, then you can say: "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up," "All right, I'm waking up . . . (indistinct) . . ." But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the āratik . Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the . . . up into the temple for the āratik , so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik . Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask to leave. Yes. Not that fighting. Hayagrīva: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: I just want to say one thing, that this . . . then I'll leave, because this is a meeting of the management here. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I'm concerned, that was very . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) That I have . . . (indistinct) . . . later. Hayagrīva: That was very cruel. It looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. It looked criminal. So, I don't think, uh . . . if it happened to me I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That's not good, under any circumstance. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That was not a very . . . (indistinct) *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like this. So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask: "When he is coming . . . (indistinct) . . .?" As soon as it is five, immediately I ask. So there may be more persons, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping, the kīrtana is going on, or morning prayer is going on, so he maybe said that: "If we sleep like that, then you cannot do it." Devotee: I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why did you . . . off something, pour water on his body? Devotee: Simply to wake him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Aggressively. Prabhupāda: So, best thing was to say that he is not in good shape; say to me that he is incorrigible. And I could have asked him . . . (indistinct) . . . he would have finished. He may give one day, once, twice - if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also . . . the police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody." What can I answer? Devotee: How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: Now here is the . . . (indistinct) . . . he says that nobody rises early in the morning. Just like yourself. Śyāmasundara: But he is rising. Devotee: I am, I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others! Pañcadraviḍa: Some others are rising. Not . . . not all, but some of them are rising. Śyāmasundara: The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That's their job. That's why you've taken . . . Prabhupāda: But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who will continually disobey, he should be respectfully asked, "Please go." You cannot . . . that . . . Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to say to somebody, "Please go," though? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to tell a person, "Please go"? We don't know who. I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Śyāmasundara: Yes it does. In US . . . Acyutānanda: No, no it doesn't. They do not respect sannyāsīs . (devotees all talk at once) Śyāmasundara: Because you may not deserve it, then. Acyutānanda: Now I'm getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like that, but behind my back people are talking, saying this . . . Prabhupāda: Now if they do not also obey the orders of the sannyāsī , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice of higher, or some official, president. Then steps should be taken that, "If you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave." It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī , leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations, and then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times, "Please leave." Like that. Śyāmasundara: If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected. Acyutānanda: Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one . . . Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to other center. Acyutānanda: I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you are making so much preaching, why, to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . Devotee: This was not a paltry reason. Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and . . . that is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something is being wrong . . . he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our work. Śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ . By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my . . . (indistinct) . . . because they are . . . they are . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible . . . after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be . . . "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Pañcadraviḍa: Engage him. *Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money. What can be done? But I don't think that if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required . . . (indistinct) . . . after all, human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya (Lord Caitanya). We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep . . . (indistinct) . . . how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere , first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me just like I , I . . . (indistinct) . . . this way. We have to do like that. Not that I "Comand, you do this. Oh, you cannot do? Get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that, "You do not . . . (indistinct) . . ." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra, you. He was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from . . . (indistinct) . . . so you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take . . . of course in some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is preferred . . . otherwise, regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water, sunshine. Whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise, everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service by six o'clock or five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should know everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real benefit. See in the early in the morning. So many parties come. *Śyāmasundara: From three*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself, and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning. We have got our duties. *Śyāmasundara: Just like yesterday, Dvija*-hari came over and he said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean over at Keśi-ghāṭa. So I said: "Well there are so many sannyāsīs there. Ask them to organize a cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one will clean. They don't want to do it." So . . . Prabhupāda: Why not some . . . some people clean like this, you have to get cleaning . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: If they won't, then you show them how. You . . . you do it also. Acyutānanda: . . . because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group, and it left for other parties. Śyāmasundara: No, but I am just saying, there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it because they are following your examples. Acyutānanda: I'm cleaning my room; I'm cleaning outside also. I don't . . . seen it. Śyāmasundara: I'm not criticizing, I'm just . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done, you should be followed like that, that āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . This should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly. Then it will be . . . everyone should remain cleansed, everyone should rise early in the morning, begin to work, comes to . . . everyone routine work. So then you can ask them, "Why you are not trying? Why you are not . . ." Then he will accept . . . (indistinct) . . . but this principle should be followed, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . Is it not? Acyutānanda: Yes. Well, for myself in particular, I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . They have . . . behind my back I hear all kinds of things they are saying. So nobody takes my words seriously. Even though I may quote from any scripture right, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is that māyā ? Songs are māyā ? Acyutānanda: As soon as I left Calcutta, then all the bhajanas , they are all, "Oh, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then, "Okay, the songs are alright, but the tunes are poison." Now how can I overcome that? Pañcadraviḍa: I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta. You wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said . . . and he had signed a letter something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja." And you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say 'Guru Mahārāja' we always say name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in . . . as vague 'Guru Mahārāja.' " So we were singing, jaya prabhupāda, jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Acyutānanda: Also he says: " Nitāi*-gaura haribol , that is also . . . that's māyā ." So, what is that? Pañcadraviḍa: And so he was saying that all these bhajanas , they are . . . they are not bona fide, because they are, have . . . Prabhupāda: He said: " Gaura haribol is not bona fide?" Who said, bona fide? Pañcadraviḍa: Oh, not that. He was saying jaya gurudeva, jaya prabhupāda , that is not good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I said, was saying, that is not good, jaya gurudeva , because it does not say who, it just says gurudeva . It could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was criticizing? Pañcadraviḍa: Bhavānanda. Because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalist to the letter. Acyutānanda: So it means I am a Māyāvādī, that's what it means. Pañcadraviḍa: Well . . . Śyāmasundara: It's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual, specific things. Acyutānanda: That overall I'm a Māyāvādī. Devotee: I find an overall bad atmosphere in India. Resentment against many of the devotees. Party politics and different things like that are going on. It's not limited, it's going on all over India. Acyutānanda: That's so . . . Devotee: Very heavy. *Śyāmasundara: Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has the respect of everyone now, because he is doing such a good job of managing, and he's just, he's doing, he's performing nicely his devotional work, and he's getting some results. That's respect. Then you'll get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he's built up ISKCON Press 'till it's just like (snaps fingers) that, and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he's performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere's bad . . ." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated paramahamsa . We are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancy here and there. So generally with our . . . general rules are . . . (indistinct) . . . common. First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and be ready for our performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there. Pañcadraviḍa: In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early. Anything that interferes with them doing as . . . exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa . Prabhupāda: This is a fact. So how to correct it? If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct? Pañcadraviḍa: Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense and if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things. And that is separatism because it's not in . . . falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place. *Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract. When people are attracted by seeing your behavior, they are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are . . ." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere : we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be effective. Another—this is general principle—now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing, that Keśi*-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property all this be dropped? What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now . . . because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient bank balance, such a big temple. Devotee: I don't . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . Prabhupāda: At the present it is not. Devotee: It's so big. It's so big. Devotee (2): Most of the quality of people that are there are . . . less people of a higher quality in a smaller place, it would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still the work would go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this what with we're having right now. I could avoid it completely because I was . . . there was nobody there to cause it—all new people. Śyāmasundara: Everybody here knows everything. (laughter) Like . . . Devotee (2): And it goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it would be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is your suggestion? Devotee (2): That we start a small center and then develop it gradually, with less . . . with less inexperienced people . . . Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (3): Well, we're not saying that it . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point. Devotee (2): At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave. Our visas will be taken away, and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a . . . it is not a . . . it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already—Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage . . . Prabhupāda: At Singapore our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): This has happened. Devotee (3): There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know. Prabhupāda: That Singapore, legally our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: They wouldn't even let you in. *Devotee (3): I think that his point . . . I think we spoke about this in Manila, was that anywhere in the world, in, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area, or are in an area, and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti*-yoga, engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that that has more effect than . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's more successful. Devotee (3): . . . than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who's doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I know the difficulty they're having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it's more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations . . . Devotee: Right. Śyāmasundara: . . . they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): And if the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . It can't be a negative ass thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person. Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees? Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta. We have our base in Bombay. Those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating this property. Devotees: No, no. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know . . . if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): . . . then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally. Śyāmasundara: Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available. Devotee (3): I don't think we need to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): I think that if we . . . if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (3): If we have devotees then . . . Śyāmasundara: That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all . . . we have seen that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Prabhupāda: No management. Devotee (2): No management. Pañcadraviḍa: As far as the men, since I think a lot are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States, you've divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. Śyāmasundara: That's a good idea. Prabhupāda: That's good. So you make like that. Śyāmasundara: That's what . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four . . . twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Śyāmasundara: But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes. Prabhupāda: That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee (3): Yes. Śyāmasundara: Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad, and we can ask him to do it. Prabhupāda: Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak, and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī , one of the biggest sannyāsīs , Gangeshvara, he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource; men and money he has. Immense resource. Śyāmasundara: We have to be careful not to . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . not to offend these people, the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . spiritual leaders. Prabhupāda: So, not offense. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything . . . everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible, even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everybody. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . come with me? American guest: Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is your program now? American guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you. Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli, how do you know him? American guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert? Prabhupāda: Oh, Balarāma, he was here. Devotee: Baba Ram, Baba Ram. Devotee (2): Baba Ram Das. Prabhupāda: Oh, Baba Ram. Tomar khabar diyeche? (They gave you food?) (break) American guest: . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And people are also almost Indian standard. American guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this. *Prabhupāda: Anti*-point. *American guest: Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā*-kālī. *Prabhupāda: Worship Mahā*-kālī? *American guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls. Prabhupāda: Oh, skulls. American guest: Skulls. *Prabhupāda: They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā*-kālī. *American guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Prabhupāda: That is worship. That is religion? American guest: Well, before, when the Spanish were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: Name is Papinque. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth. Prabhupāda: Your parents live in Mexico City? American guest: No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Oh American guest: On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: They're also vegetarians now. Prabhupāda: Acchā ? In Mexico they are vegetarians? American guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians. Gurudāsa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from? American guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break) American guest: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health is not very good. I am not cent percent. Devotee: So much time . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ghee . Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No. American guest: There is good butter. Prabhupāda: Butter? American guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi." Devotee: That was in Mexico. Gurudāsa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street. American guest: Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break) American guest: From that illness you had when you came to India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. American guest: When you were recovering from your stroke? Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: I think you looked in better health then. Prabhupāda: When I was . . . American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Since then I have no stroke. American guest: You still have massages every day? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following? American guest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Which philosophy you are following? American guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedānta and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He also teaches Kṛṣṇa? American guest: Uh, he teaches, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Buddha. American guest: Buddha. Buddhism. Prabhupāda: So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy? American guest: Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too. Prabhupāda: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God. American guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy. American guest: The approach is different, yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? American guest: The approach is different. Prabhupāda: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy? American guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?" Prabhupāda: Achieved? American guest: Achieved. You know—attained. Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh. American guest: And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different. Prabhupāda: If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there? American guest: Well . . . Prabhupāda: If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light. American guest: We are, approaching means . . . Prabhupāda: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light? American guest: Yes, but what are we approaching? Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: What are we approaching? Prabhupāda: That you have to explain. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: We say . . . American guest: The Absolute. Prabhupāda: We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same. American guest: Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa , but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . . Prabhupāda: I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa . That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position. American guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position? Prabhupāda: Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa . American guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness. Prabhupāda: Then where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa means finished. American guest: Uh, yes. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void. American guest: Etymologically it means "No wind." Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: "No wind." Prabhupāda: No wind? American guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind. Prabhupāda: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished. American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa . Devotee: (to guest) You want some more vegetables and purīs ? Prabhupāda: Give him. More, more. American guest: Not more. Devotee: Yes. American guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: If there's an extinguishing . . . Prabhupāda: So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are? American guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . . Prabhupāda: That is not extinguishing. American guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished. American guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . . Prabhupāda: Transformed to what? American guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else. Prabhupāda: Then it is not nirvāṇa . It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa . Just like . . . American guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: You mean, but the word nirvāṇa . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . . Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Devotee: Gopāla wants to see you. (break) Prabhupāda: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa . But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation. American guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means. Prabhupāda: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary. American guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit— nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning. American guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa ? American guest: Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system. Prabhupāda: The life symptoms? American guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Symptoms of life? American guest: In this system. Prabhupāda: System? What is that system? American guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is that practically? American guest: The practical result? Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different. *Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. American guest: So that is . . . Prabhupāda: To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . . American guest: So that if you . . . Prabhupāda: . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe. American guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . . Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe. American guest: No, they've rejected the *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say. American guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect. *Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa har e (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand. American guest: Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people? Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them. American guest: He didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Buddha didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy? American guest: Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . . American guest: What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others." Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha. American guest: Huh, but . . . Prabhupāda: But . . . American guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . . Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required. American guest: Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad. American guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ." Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for . . . American guest: ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly. *Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura*-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . come with me? American guest: Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is your program now? American guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you. Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli, how do you know him? American guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert? Prabhupāda: Oh, Balarāma, he was here. Devotee: Baba Ram, Baba Ram. Devotee (2): Baba Ram Das. Prabhupāda: Oh, Baba Ram. Tomar khabar diyeche? (They gave you food?) (break) American guest: . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And people are also almost Indian standard. American guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this. *Prabhupāda: Anti*-point. *American guest: Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā*-kālī. *Prabhupāda: Worship Mahā*-kālī? *American guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls. Prabhupāda: Oh, skulls. American guest: Skulls. *Prabhupāda: They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā*-kālī. *American guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Prabhupāda: That is worship. That is religion? American guest: Well, before, when the Spanish were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: Name is Papinque. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth. Prabhupāda: Your parents live in Mexico City? American guest: No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Oh American guest: On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: They're also vegetarians now. Prabhupāda: Acchā ? In Mexico they are vegetarians? American guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians. Gurudāsa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from? American guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break) American guest: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health is not very good. I am not cent percent. Devotee: So much time . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ghee . Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No. American guest: There is good butter. Prabhupāda: Butter? American guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi." Devotee: That was in Mexico. Gurudāsa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street. American guest: Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break) American guest: From that illness you had when you came to India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. American guest: When you were recovering from your stroke? Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: I think you looked in better health then. Prabhupāda: When I was . . . American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Since then I have no stroke. American guest: You still have massages every day? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following? American guest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Which philosophy you are following? American guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedānta and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He also teaches Kṛṣṇa? American guest: Uh, he teaches, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Buddha. American guest: Buddha. Buddhism. Prabhupāda: So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy? American guest: Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too. Prabhupāda: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God. American guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy. American guest: The approach is different, yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? American guest: The approach is different. Prabhupāda: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy? American guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?" Prabhupāda: Achieved? American guest: Achieved. You know—attained. Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh. American guest: And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different. Prabhupāda: If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there? American guest: Well . . . Prabhupāda: If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light. American guest: We are, approaching means . . . Prabhupāda: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light? American guest: Yes, but what are we approaching? Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: What are we approaching? Prabhupāda: That you have to explain. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: We say . . . American guest: The Absolute. Prabhupāda: We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same. American guest: Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa , but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . . Prabhupāda: I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa . That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position. American guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position? Prabhupāda: Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa . American guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness. Prabhupāda: Then where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa means finished. American guest: Uh, yes. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void. American guest: Etymologically it means "No wind." Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: "No wind." Prabhupāda: No wind? American guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind. Prabhupāda: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished. American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa . Devotee: (to guest) You want some more vegetables and purīs ? Prabhupāda: Give him. More, more. American guest: Not more. Devotee: Yes. American guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: If there's an extinguishing . . . Prabhupāda: So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are? American guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . . Prabhupāda: That is not extinguishing. American guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished. American guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . . Prabhupāda: Transformed to what? American guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else. Prabhupāda: Then it is not nirvāṇa . It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa . Just like . . . American guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: You mean, but the word nirvāṇa . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . . Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Devotee: Gopāla wants to see you. (break) Prabhupāda: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa . But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation. American guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means. Prabhupāda: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary. American guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit— nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning. American guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa ? American guest: Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system. Prabhupāda: The life symptoms? American guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Symptoms of life? American guest: In this system. Prabhupāda: System? What is that system? American guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is that practically? American guest: The practical result? Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different. *Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. American guest: So that is . . . Prabhupāda: To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . . American guest: So that if you . . . Prabhupāda: . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe. American guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . . Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe. American guest: No, they've rejected the *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say. American guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect. *Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa har e (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand. American guest: Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people? Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them. American guest: He didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Buddha didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy? American guest: Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . . American guest: What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others." Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha. American guest: Huh, but . . . Prabhupāda: But . . . American guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . . Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required. American guest: Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad. American guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ." Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for . . . American guest: ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly. *Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura*-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . a disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious . . . (indistinct) . . . is an opiate of . . . they call? It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana . To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will not patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls, and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come, then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for . . . I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and . . . Indian man: Signatures of them. *Prabhupāda: Many thousand, many lakhs . And this is one point . . . and we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna ( BG 7.16). Bhajana, bhajante , this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ . And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ , miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious men, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā , and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as . . . it is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). These are the symptoms of mahātmās . So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā ? And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām : always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is . . . you come forward. You are all educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul . . . your culture. It is not 'your,' 'our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the . . . (indistinct) . . . kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana , one become free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra , and we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to make propaganda. And let them come, at least, Sunday morning. And . . . (referring to fan) It is roaming like this? Indian man: Eh? Prabhupāda: It is revolving? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita. Indian man: I think we can also fix it. Prabhupāda: No, revolving is . . . Indian man: You want revolving? Is it on? Devotee: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good, though. *Prabhupāda: What, this will be propaganda, and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that, "Here the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signature. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective if sent. Indian man: . . . jī? May I submit a matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Indian man: This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends, and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat*-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and, on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by . . . of our reconsidering, we lose nothing. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: By writing them a petition. Prabhupāda: But if . . . it has no effect. Indian man: I don't say it has no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider, because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice . . . Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to go; public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance; essential. Indian man: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people, that the bhajanas and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat*-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras . *Indian man: So therefore . . . you see, the authors of the śāstras . . . śāstra big authors, who are good so*-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras , but the government, which is so-called secular or pro-Muslim and pro-Communist . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your own śāstra . Indian man: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not . . . Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court. Indian man: Therefore . . . I'm coming round that. What I say on the prima facie , the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is flowing. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The petition was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck, and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of decision, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was . . . I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said: "Maybe." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said: "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that, "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. "It may be." That means the option is equally open, "May not be," also. That's only a review has been taken without any basis of that . . . Prabhupāda: That is your second item. Indian man: And our . . . I'll finish, I'm coming on that. Now, third is, is the Constitution rights. Now, under the Constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the Constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal, it is not for any sector. Prabhupāda: (referring to fan) It is not moving like that, revolving? Satsvarūpa: No, the other one is not working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man: I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, alright. But make it full force. This is full? Yaśomatīnandana: This revolves, but I don't know how. Prabhupāda: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There . . . there is no Indian. Indian man: That's what will come in the way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: That will come in the way. That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians. Prabhupāda: No, "You should have," but no Indians are coming. Indian man: No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know. Prabhupāda: No, we cannot appoint. That is not . . . that is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless. Indian man: Paid . . . appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them. Prabhupāda: So who is honorary coming? They are also honorary, but who is dedicating . . . Indian man: So you should have in India those people . . . Prabhupāda: "I should have" means you, if you become "Should have." Otherwise . . . Indian man: I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody . . . *Prabhupāda: Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian*-educated youths are come? They are not interested. Indian man: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some . . . *Prabhupāda: Then that . . . no, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the . . . but in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes, that if they make it without . . . just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that . . . there, they understand that these Americans making this satyagraha , as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty*-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that, "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out." Indian man: Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners, because that will be against them. What I was meaning to . . . they should be . . . Prabhupāda: That should be taken. Therefore I say hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll . . . Indian man: No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians. Prabhupāda: No, organize . . . they have actually come to me. They are attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are . . . just like in Africa, they are junglis . Indian man: Uncivilized. *Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India, where the civilization is supposed to be so . . . and actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that, " Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what . . . how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā . It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti . . . (BG 7.16) Gandhi was chanting in temple raghupati rāghava . So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana , take prasāda , and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and . . . I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā . And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance. Essential, we want it. And the other thing, we are making gate in and out two gates . . . submit a plan like that, that this is . . . there will be no . . . that may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architect, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come . . ." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasāda , and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. But then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha , and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so. Indian man: Yes, Rajasthan. *Prabhupāda: Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come, and we are firing. And the . . . your sva*-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government. Indian man: One has to snatch the justice from them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Not by begging our mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people what they have done. All they have got this liberty, or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise, the government has the majority in the assembly. Congress Party has a majority . . . (indistinct) . . . how they will be able to desolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be desolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, unconstitutional method has been adopted because they . . . Prabhupāda: And they have smashed the speaking. Indian man: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: The Hindustan people lied doing that. Indian man: Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty. Prabhupāda: What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the . . . Indian man: And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall. Indian man: Yes. A big halls or a paṇḍal as we had held two years back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Indian man: I don't know how you have got the sanction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: And there the people can come in the thousands and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already said. Indian man: . . . on the neighboring stand, we should raise . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we request them that, "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not . . . why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā . What is the . . .? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands. Indian man: Last year or two years back, we had maidān and same playground . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Make that. Let them have saṅkīrtana . Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a . . . "Better late than never." But this propaganda should be done. (break) Now . . . now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple place hundred chairs so that many people cannot stand; they will sit comfortable without . . . with the . . . with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasāda , whatever you can, "Please take prasāda ." Give him plate. Make this way. Indian man: What I was saying apart from all that . . . in my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a Life Member. But as a Life Member I can help on the police commissioner also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: In writing, I can help on the police commissioner. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Indian man: Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a Life Member of our relation. Prabhupāda: No, not as our lawyer. Indian man: That . . . no, I say . . . Prabhupāda: On your personal capacity. Yes. Indian man: I say. Prabhupāda: Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that. Indian man: "As a Life Member, I am suffering because of this reason, that if there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually." Prabhupāda: No, you can go to other temple. Indian man: No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied? Prabhupāda: Then you are spiritually not improving. Indian man: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Then you are not spiritually improving. Indian man: No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them. Prabhupāda: That is not very strong reason. Indian man: No, but what I say, they may be strong, but I say I am stronger than them. Prabhupāda: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the . . . Indian man: No, no. I . . . Prabhupāda: . . . that your idea means our idea, carried. Indian man: Not necessarily. (break) Prabhupāda: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion. Indian man: Certainly, it's my honest opinion. Prabhupāda: But the thing is, I want to do something solid. Indian man: No, but what I say is my . . . Prabhupāda: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much. Indian man: No, but, uh, I am hopeful. Prabhupāda: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that . . . Indian man: Unless they have got some . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: The . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi. Yaśomatīnandana: Delhi. Indian man: You see, if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs. Indian man: But if they will logically . . . Prabhupāda: Logic—there is no logic. Indian man: No, but what I say . . . if they are appeased . . . Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword. Indian man: No, but what I say . . . the basic problem is that the central against, if the Delhi government is against . . . Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against. Indian man: If the Delhi government is against, therefore they are . . . they are not disclosing their weakness. Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that . . . many politicians have said. In London, the High Commissioner, he said: "Swāmījī, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharashtrian, Pant. Pant. So . . . but we cannot do anything of this way. Indian man: No, but if the central is against, then my logic says . . . Prabhupāda: Central is against. Indian man: If the central is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Then how we have got a permission in Delhi? Prabhupāda: What is that permission? Indian man: Temple permission building. Yaśomatīnandana: We don't have . . . we haven't built a temple in Delhi. Indian man: We don't have a temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man: Then what about the permission in the Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Māyāpur, that doesn't require any permission. Indian man: What? Prabhupāda: That doesn't require any permission. That is the village. Indian man: Ācchā . And what about this Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: That also, they gave permission with great difficulty. Indian man: Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad, I do not know. Yaśomatīnandana: Hyderabad is easier, because the people are very much in favor of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year, Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city is so . . . formerly, it was planned that, "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there. Indian man: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena? Prabhupāda: That is very good. Indian man: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner, from breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: But one thing is . . . my fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go." Indian man: (indistinct) . . . India. Prabhupāda: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka ? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why . . . they will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals svāmīs have told them, "Yes . . ." Indian man: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: As you rightly say, that if we do anything actively, then they may see your boys going out of India, foreigners, Americans. Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us. Indian man: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground, and they will say that, "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons. Prabhupāda: Any reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you." Indian man: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, or try to get another places, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys. Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda—preach. Indian man: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them. Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting. Yaśomatīnandana: We are not going to preach against them. Indian man: No, no, here . . . Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy. Indian man: No, but then your philosophy is only, you see . . . you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking the signatures. Thousands. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say . . . Indian man: Even though you do not say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals. Yaśomatīnandana: So then they . . . Indian man: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India." Yaśomatīnandana: But it's clear agitation. If we have . . . satyagraha . Indian man: (indistinct) . . . the propaganda is also part of the agitation no? Propaganda of collecting the signatures . . . (break) Yaśomatīnandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with . . . Prabhupāda: Who is arranging for this higher level? (aside) Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? Eh? But you do not know. This, you . . . (indistinct) . . . never close . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . a disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious . . . (indistinct) . . . is an opiate of . . . they call? It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana . To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will not patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls, and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come, then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for . . . I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and . . . Indian man: Signatures of them. *Prabhupāda: Many thousand, many lakhs . And this is one point . . . and we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna ( BG 7.16). Bhajana, bhajante , this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ . And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ , miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious men, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā , and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as . . . it is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). These are the symptoms of mahātmās . So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā ? And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām : always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is . . . you come forward. You are all educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul . . . your culture. It is not 'your,' 'our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the . . . (indistinct) . . . kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana , one become free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra , and we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to make propaganda. And let them come, at least, Sunday morning. And . . . (referring to fan) It is roaming like this? Indian man: Eh? Prabhupāda: It is revolving? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita. Indian man: I think we can also fix it. Prabhupāda: No, revolving is . . . Indian man: You want revolving? Is it on? Devotee: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good, though. *Prabhupāda: What, this will be propaganda, and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that, "Here the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signature. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective if sent. Indian man: . . . jī? May I submit a matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Indian man: This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends, and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat*-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and, on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by . . . of our reconsidering, we lose nothing. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: By writing them a petition. Prabhupāda: But if . . . it has no effect. Indian man: I don't say it has no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider, because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice . . . Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to go; public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance; essential. Indian man: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people, that the bhajanas and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat*-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras . *Indian man: So therefore . . . you see, the authors of the śāstras . . . śāstra big authors, who are good so*-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras , but the government, which is so-called secular or pro-Muslim and pro-Communist . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your own śāstra . Indian man: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not . . . Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court. Indian man: Therefore . . . I'm coming round that. What I say on the prima facie , the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is flowing. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The petition was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck, and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of decision, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was . . . I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said: "Maybe." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said: "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that, "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. "It may be." That means the option is equally open, "May not be," also. That's only a review has been taken without any basis of that . . . Prabhupāda: That is your second item. Indian man: And our . . . I'll finish, I'm coming on that. Now, third is, is the Constitution rights. Now, under the Constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the Constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal, it is not for any sector. Prabhupāda: (referring to fan) It is not moving like that, revolving? Satsvarūpa: No, the other one is not working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man: I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, alright. But make it full force. This is full? Yaśomatīnandana: This revolves, but I don't know how. Prabhupāda: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There . . . there is no Indian. Indian man: That's what will come in the way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: That will come in the way. That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians. Prabhupāda: No, "You should have," but no Indians are coming. Indian man: No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know. Prabhupāda: No, we cannot appoint. That is not . . . that is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless. Indian man: Paid . . . appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them. Prabhupāda: So who is honorary coming? They are also honorary, but who is dedicating . . . Indian man: So you should have in India those people . . . Prabhupāda: "I should have" means you, if you become "Should have." Otherwise . . . Indian man: I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody . . . *Prabhupāda: Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian*-educated youths are come? They are not interested. Indian man: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some . . . *Prabhupāda: Then that . . . no, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the . . . but in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes, that if they make it without . . . just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that . . . there, they understand that these Americans making this satyagraha , as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty*-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that, "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out." Indian man: Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners, because that will be against them. What I was meaning to . . . they should be . . . Prabhupāda: That should be taken. Therefore I say hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll . . . Indian man: No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians. Prabhupāda: No, organize . . . they have actually come to me. They are attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are . . . just like in Africa, they are junglis . Indian man: Uncivilized. *Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India, where the civilization is supposed to be so . . . and actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that, " Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what . . . how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā . It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti . . . (BG 7.16) Gandhi was chanting in temple raghupati rāghava . So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana , take prasāda , and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and . . . I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā . And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance. Essential, we want it. And the other thing, we are making gate in and out two gates . . . submit a plan like that, that this is . . . there will be no . . . that may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architect, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come . . ." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasāda , and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. But then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha , and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so. Indian man: Yes, Rajasthan. *Prabhupāda: Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come, and we are firing. And the . . . your sva*-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government. Indian man: One has to snatch the justice from them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Not by begging our mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people what they have done. All they have got this liberty, or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise, the government has the majority in the assembly. Congress Party has a majority . . . (indistinct) . . . how they will be able to desolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be desolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, unconstitutional method has been adopted because they . . . Prabhupāda: And they have smashed the speaking. Indian man: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: The Hindustan people lied doing that. Indian man: Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty. Prabhupāda: What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the . . . Indian man: And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall. Indian man: Yes. A big halls or a paṇḍal as we had held two years back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Indian man: I don't know how you have got the sanction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: And there the people can come in the thousands and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already said. Indian man: . . . on the neighboring stand, we should raise . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we request them that, "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not . . . why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā . What is the . . .? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands. Indian man: Last year or two years back, we had maidān and same playground . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Make that. Let them have saṅkīrtana . Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a . . . "Better late than never." But this propaganda should be done. (break) Now . . . now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple place hundred chairs so that many people cannot stand; they will sit comfortable without . . . with the . . . with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasāda , whatever you can, "Please take prasāda ." Give him plate. Make this way. Indian man: What I was saying apart from all that . . . in my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a Life Member. But as a Life Member I can help on the police commissioner also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: In writing, I can help on the police commissioner. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Indian man: Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a Life Member of our relation. Prabhupāda: No, not as our lawyer. Indian man: That . . . no, I say . . . Prabhupāda: On your personal capacity. Yes. Indian man: I say. Prabhupāda: Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that. Indian man: "As a Life Member, I am suffering because of this reason, that if there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually." Prabhupāda: No, you can go to other temple. Indian man: No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied? Prabhupāda: Then you are spiritually not improving. Indian man: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Then you are not spiritually improving. Indian man: No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them. Prabhupāda: That is not very strong reason. Indian man: No, but what I say, they may be strong, but I say I am stronger than them. Prabhupāda: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the . . . Indian man: No, no. I . . . Prabhupāda: . . . that your idea means our idea, carried. Indian man: Not necessarily. (break) Prabhupāda: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion. Indian man: Certainly, it's my honest opinion. Prabhupāda: But the thing is, I want to do something solid. Indian man: No, but what I say is my . . . Prabhupāda: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much. Indian man: No, but, uh, I am hopeful. Prabhupāda: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that . . . Indian man: Unless they have got some . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: The . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi. Yaśomatīnandana: Delhi. Indian man: You see, if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs. Indian man: But if they will logically . . . Prabhupāda: Logic—there is no logic. Indian man: No, but what I say . . . if they are appeased . . . Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword. Indian man: No, but what I say . . . the basic problem is that the central against, if the Delhi government is against . . . Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against. Indian man: If the Delhi government is against, therefore they are . . . they are not disclosing their weakness. Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that . . . many politicians have said. In London, the High Commissioner, he said: "Swāmījī, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharashtrian, Pant. Pant. So . . . but we cannot do anything of this way. Indian man: No, but if the central is against, then my logic says . . . Prabhupāda: Central is against. Indian man: If the central is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Then how we have got a permission in Delhi? Prabhupāda: What is that permission? Indian man: Temple permission building. Yaśomatīnandana: We don't have . . . we haven't built a temple in Delhi. Indian man: We don't have a temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man: Then what about the permission in the Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Māyāpur, that doesn't require any permission. Indian man: What? Prabhupāda: That doesn't require any permission. That is the village. Indian man: Ācchā . And what about this Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: That also, they gave permission with great difficulty. Indian man: Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad, I do not know. Yaśomatīnandana: Hyderabad is easier, because the people are very much in favor of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year, Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city is so . . . formerly, it was planned that, "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there. Indian man: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena? Prabhupāda: That is very good. Indian man: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner, from breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: But one thing is . . . my fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go." Indian man: (indistinct) . . . India. Prabhupāda: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka ? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why . . . they will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals svāmīs have told them, "Yes . . ." Indian man: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: As you rightly say, that if we do anything actively, then they may see your boys going out of India, foreigners, Americans. Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us. Indian man: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground, and they will say that, "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons. Prabhupāda: Any reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you." Indian man: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, or try to get another places, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys. Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda—preach. Indian man: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them. Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting. Yaśomatīnandana: We are not going to preach against them. Indian man: No, no, here . . . Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy. Indian man: No, but then your philosophy is only, you see . . . you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking the signatures. Thousands. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say . . . Indian man: Even though you do not say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals. Yaśomatīnandana: So then they . . . Indian man: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India." Yaśomatīnandana: But it's clear agitation. If we have . . . satyagraha . Indian man: (indistinct) . . . the propaganda is also part of the agitation no? Propaganda of collecting the signatures . . . (break) Yaśomatīnandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with . . . Prabhupāda: Who is arranging for this higher level? (aside) Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? Eh? But you do not know. This, you . . . (indistinct) . . . never close . . . (end) (Video 03:09) Prabhupāda: So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position. Pañcadraviḍa: Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained . . . *(aside) . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This jagad is avyakta , imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said: "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? (break) *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . because I have heard so many of these so-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gītā or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, how they can explain? *Bhava*-bhūti: They don't have an inkling. *Prabhupāda: They cannot touch even Bhagavad*-gītā . They have no qualification. *Bhava*-bhūti: : They have no understanding. *Prabhupāda: Their speaking of Bhagavad*-gītā is artificial. *Bhava*-bhūti: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto 'si . One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad*-gītā . *Bhava*-bhūti: Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī"s asrama . . . Prabhupāda: Mmm, mmm. *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized. Prabhupāda: Maybe (laughs). Indian man: Jaya . Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that? Viśākhā: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa *Indian woman: Hum Shimla gaye. Hum to town me aise hi thoda ghum rahe the, to waha thoda thak gaye the, rest karne lag gaye. Idhar Brahmananda Swami, do hi to the, bas thoda lecture shuru ho gaya. Abhi baithe to kehne lage - kaun hai sannyasi maharaj, ye*-wo. Bas batein chalti-chalti, kiske follower hai? Ye A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji ke hai. Kaha, ye kya, bhakti . . . abhi minto ke andar itna jan waha ikattha ho gaya, ke bas ye log apni-apni baat baat to kar rhe the lekin un sab ke daant Brahmananda Swami je ne aise khatte kar diye, tab wo itne please, request, sorry . . . ye wo karne lage ki humne jo apke samne kuch bhi kaha hai, hum knowledge nahi rakhte, humko shama karna aur hum ye chahte hai ke aap humare yaha ake program dijiye. Humare paas to time hi nhi tha, hum ek din to rahe hai waha lekin wo itne icchuk the ki abhi humare yaha zarur program rakhiye, humko . . . jo apne knowledge pai hai, hum bhi chahte hai ki hum bhi usko grahan kare aur humare bacche, humare ye Shimla log, sab usko prapt kare. Yaha tak humne . . . ek uncle hai mere waha, unko keh kar ayi hun ki waha ek church hai bilkul top ke upar. Maine bola ki koi lene wala na ho to uski baatchit karke rakhna, phir baat karenge ake. To unko keh kar hi aye hai. Wo church agar mil jaye to bahut . . . (We had gone to Shimla and as we were taking a tour of the city, we became very tired. Thus we sat down to rest while Brahmananda Swami started a lecture. Immediately people started asking - who is this sannyāsi Mahārāja, whose follower is he etc. I told them that he is the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Within minutes, a huge crowd gathered and they started challenging him with various questions but Brahmananda Swami defeated them so expertly that they had to beg forgiveness from him. They admitted their ignorance and asked him to organize a program in Shimla so that everyone including their children could receive the knowledge that Brahmananda Swami possessed. I even went to the extent of requesting my uncle to negotiate with the owners of a dilapidated church on a hilltop so that we can try to acquire it in the future. If we can get that church, it would be great . . .) *Bhava*-bhūti: : We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras . The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas . We have to get a special police permission. Prabhupāda: Where? *Bhava*-bhūti: All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance. Prabhupāda: Where? *Bhava*-bhūti: In Hrisikesa, Hardwar. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhava*-bhūti: So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama , special permission. Prabhupāda: Which asrama ? What is that asrama ? Devotee: Which asrama ? *Bhava*-bhūti: Any asrama . Gītā Bhavan . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama . They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis , their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra . Therefore, we can understand that what you're speaking is being realized in the heart because it's creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance. *Indian woman: Hum is baar Kumbh ke mele par gaye the, humne apna ek program sabne milkar kiya hai. Kabhi sab jate hai to bahut accha program hone wala tha. Bahut kuch, bahut badhiya advertisement ho jani lekin kuch minister gaye huye the. Hum jo gaye the, hum to do*-tin devotee the jo gaye. (We went to the Kumbha-melā this time and collectively organised our own program. It could have been very nice with wonderful advertisements but some ministers were present there at that time. We were only a couple of devotees . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. (break) But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains, and pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Is it not a fact? *Bhava*-bhūti: Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a fact. Prabhupāda: The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian? *Bhava*-bhūti: No. Prabhupāda: It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra , When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is (laughing) every, feeling . . . if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way . . . Kya ji, aise ho sakta hai kya? (Tell me, is it possible?) . . . simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break) (end) (Video 03:09) Prabhupāda: So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position. Pañcadraviḍa: Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained . . . *(aside) . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This jagad is avyakta , imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said: "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? (break) *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . because I have heard so many of these so-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gītā or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, how they can explain? *Bhava*-bhūti: They don't have an inkling. *Prabhupāda: They cannot touch even Bhagavad*-gītā . They have no qualification. *Bhava*-bhūti: : They have no understanding. *Prabhupāda: Their speaking of Bhagavad*-gītā is artificial. *Bhava*-bhūti: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto 'si . One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad*-gītā . *Bhava*-bhūti: Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī"s asrama . . . Prabhupāda: Mmm, mmm. *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized. Prabhupāda: Maybe (laughs). Indian man: Jaya . Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that? Viśākhā: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa *Indian woman: Hum Shimla gaye. Hum to town me aise hi thoda ghum rahe the, to waha thoda thak gaye the, rest karne lag gaye. Idhar Brahmananda Swami, do hi to the, bas thoda lecture shuru ho gaya. Abhi baithe to kehne lage - kaun hai sannyasi maharaj, ye*-wo. Bas batein chalti-chalti, kiske follower hai? Ye A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji ke hai. Kaha, ye kya, bhakti . . . abhi minto ke andar itna jan waha ikattha ho gaya, ke bas ye log apni-apni baat baat to kar rhe the lekin un sab ke daant Brahmananda Swami je ne aise khatte kar diye, tab wo itne please, request, sorry . . . ye wo karne lage ki humne jo apke samne kuch bhi kaha hai, hum knowledge nahi rakhte, humko shama karna aur hum ye chahte hai ke aap humare yaha ake program dijiye. Humare paas to time hi nhi tha, hum ek din to rahe hai waha lekin wo itne icchuk the ki abhi humare yaha zarur program rakhiye, humko . . . jo apne knowledge pai hai, hum bhi chahte hai ki hum bhi usko grahan kare aur humare bacche, humare ye Shimla log, sab usko prapt kare. Yaha tak humne . . . ek uncle hai mere waha, unko keh kar ayi hun ki waha ek church hai bilkul top ke upar. Maine bola ki koi lene wala na ho to uski baatchit karke rakhna, phir baat karenge ake. To unko keh kar hi aye hai. Wo church agar mil jaye to bahut . . . (We had gone to Shimla and as we were taking a tour of the city, we became very tired. Thus we sat down to rest while Brahmananda Swami started a lecture. Immediately people started asking - who is this sannyāsi Mahārāja, whose follower is he etc. I told them that he is the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Within minutes, a huge crowd gathered and they started challenging him with various questions but Brahmananda Swami defeated them so expertly that they had to beg forgiveness from him. They admitted their ignorance and asked him to organize a program in Shimla so that everyone including their children could receive the knowledge that Brahmananda Swami possessed. I even went to the extent of requesting my uncle to negotiate with the owners of a dilapidated church on a hilltop so that we can try to acquire it in the future. If we can get that church, it would be great . . .) *Bhava*-bhūti: : We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras . The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas . We have to get a special police permission. Prabhupāda: Where? *Bhava*-bhūti: All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance. Prabhupāda: Where? *Bhava*-bhūti: In Hrisikesa, Hardwar. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhava*-bhūti: So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama , special permission. Prabhupāda: Which asrama ? What is that asrama ? Devotee: Which asrama ? *Bhava*-bhūti: Any asrama . Gītā Bhavan . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama . They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis , their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra . Therefore, we can understand that what you're speaking is being realized in the heart because it's creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance. *Indian woman: Hum is baar Kumbh ke mele par gaye the, humne apna ek program sabne milkar kiya hai. Kabhi sab jate hai to bahut accha program hone wala tha. Bahut kuch, bahut badhiya advertisement ho jani lekin kuch minister gaye huye the. Hum jo gaye the, hum to do*-tin devotee the jo gaye. (We went to the Kumbha-melā this time and collectively organised our own program. It could have been very nice with wonderful advertisements but some ministers were present there at that time. We were only a couple of devotees . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. (break) But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains, and pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Is it not a fact? *Bhava*-bhūti: Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a fact. Prabhupāda: The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian? *Bhava*-bhūti: No. Prabhupāda: It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra , When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is (laughing) every, feeling . . . if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way . . . Kya ji, aise ho sakta hai kya? (Tell me, is it possible?) . . . simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . I shall speak? Mahāṁśa: First His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak something about our philosophy for a few minutes, and then you can ask questions. Prabhupāda: Yasya —anyone; asti —one, anyone who has; bhagavati —in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; *akiñcanā*-bhakti —unalloyed devotion, faith; *sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ —with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ : if one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities. So at the present moment, the godless civilization. Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of *Mahābhārata* that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge. Because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life. *In the śāstras we see that Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa, He taught His one hundred sons, "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working hard like cats and dogs for sense gratification." Ultimate end is sense gratification, satisfying the senses. This is the business of the cats and hogs, or dogs and hogs. The hog is whole day working to find out stool: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he gets some stool, little strength, immediately sex life, without any discrimination whether she is mother or sister or daughter. This kind of life is described in the śāstras as hog civilization. So at the present moment, without any reference to God consciousness, people are being taught to satisfy the senses, work very hard, and ruin the chance of human life. *This human life is specially meant for solving all the problems of life. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam . . . (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā . Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youthhood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of bodies, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. *But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ . And there are so many different varieties of bodies. *There are nine lakhs varieties of life in the water. Similarly, twenty lakhs varieties of life in the trees and plants. Then there are insects, then there are birds, then there are animals, then there is human being. So this human form of body is obtained after evolution of many millions and trillions of years. It should not be . . . this is a chance for stopping this business of repetition of birth and death. But people, they have no knowledge how to stop it. Although everything is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , everything is explained, but we are not utilizing. We are manufacturing our own concocted knowledge. Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical—everything is there. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for spreading the knowledge contained in the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). After understanding Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna affirmed, "Kṛṣṇa, You are Para-brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Brahman . . . every living entity is Brahman, or everything is Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is a fact. But Para-brahman is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the Vedic version. He is the Supreme. So unless we accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā ? So that we have to accept, and His instruction, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā , annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajña. Yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ . In this way people can be happy. *So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa , and . . . at least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not . . . it is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa , they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . So if you associate with sattva-guṇa , then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa , then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa , they are in knowledge. *Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas , and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . . . (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa . The next class, kṣatriyas , who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya , they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce food grains and give protection to the cows. *So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā . And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Thank you very much. Devotees: Haribol . (break) Mahāṁśa: Now we open the placement to the questions. Prabhupāda: Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can . . . *Reporter (1): Since you are following Bhagavad*-gītā , do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy? *Prabhupāda: Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt . So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living man. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. Reporter (1): Sorry, what I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one, as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says . . . *Prabhupāda: We are speaking from the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; *you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī , and my body is deha . So deha*-dehī , there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room; I am not this room. Similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is called illusion. Reporter (2): What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimate aim is that . . . Reporter (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I will say ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). See, our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life. Reporter (2): Is that perfection possible in one life? Prabhupāda: Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that: We change our body on account of sinful activities. But if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform. *As soon as you become unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you immediately transcend this material platform. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate . You remain in the spiritual platform. And if you die in the spiritual platform, then you go to the spiritual world. Reporter (3): But isn't the bhajana that you do . . . (indistinct) . . . for concentration? Prabhupāda: Yes, bhajana is concentration, reading is concentration . . . Reporter (3): No, besides that, any other type of concentration you do? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by concentration? Reporter (4): Meditation. Reporter (3): Meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you think . . . dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , in dhyāna , in meditation, they always see the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu within the heart. So that is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ . The jñānīs , they see by cultivation of knowledge, and the bhaktas , they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is understood from different angles of vision. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). That is Absolute Truth. Yaj jñānam advayam. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. The same thing in different angle of vision. The jñānīs , they realize as impersonal Brahman. The yogīs , they realize as Paramātmā situated in everyone's heart. And the bhaktas , they realize as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the thing is the same. It is the different angle of vision only. Reporter (2): What exactly is guru's role in your system? *Prabhupāda: To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā , constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt (SB 5.5.18). Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease." Reporter (4): . . . (indistinct question) *Prabhupāda: The Americans and the Europeans, they are fed up with this material type of civilization. They are . . . they know that spiritual life is there in India. They understand it. Therefore, any svāmī goes there, they go round him to take some spiritual instruction. Unfortunately, mostly they go who have no knowledge. They cannot give them right knowledge. So for the time being they may surround them, but after some time they disperse, because they do not get actually. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, now many svāmīs went there and they preached Bhagavad*-gītā also, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa for the last hundreds of years. But now Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, and people are taking it by hundreds, thousands. So they are after some knowledge, spiritual knowledge, from India, but our so-called svāmīs , they go, they do not give actual information of the Indian spiritual culture. Therefore they are practically deceived. But this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we do not change anything. In the Bhagavad-gītā you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So we are teaching them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." So they are accepting. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching that, "Just always think of Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and you will remember Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "And just become devotee. Worship the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. Become His bhakta ." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . "Worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Māṁ namaskuru : "Offer your obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." So we are teaching this arcanam . We have got hundred temples like this all over the world. And hundreds and thousands are joining. So this is practical. So they are accepting. Now it is our duty to give the actual Vedic culture, which is concise, summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sarvopaniṣad-gavaḥ , the essence of all Upaniṣads teaching. *So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of . . . but here Bhagavad*-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13): "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "You just produce sufficient food grains and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña ." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā ? Reporter (5): Do you think the Russian society is not put it off by this bhajana ? Prabhupāda: Russian? Reporter (5): Society. Prabhupāda: I do not know Russian society, but I can say I have been in Moscow. The people are not happy. That I can say. Reporter (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God in the sense of seeing the Lord's image in their heart? Prabhupāda: What is the mean, that? Reporter (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God . . . Prabhupāda: Vision of God you can see also. Here is vision of God. Reporter (1): In the sense of seeing Lord in their own heart? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, of course, later on. First of all see here is God, vision of God. Everyone can see. It is public. Why you ask my disciples? You can see also. No, no. Just like, vision of God, here is Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): That is physical vision. Prabhupāda: That's all. Physical means vision; your vision is also physical. Your vision is not spiritual. Whatever you see with your eyes, that is physical. That is not anything beyond physical. Reporter (1): See with spiritual eyes. Prabhupāda: Spiritual eyes, that's all right. But first of all you have to see whatever eyes you have got. You have got physical eyes. Why you are talking of spiritual eyes? Reporter (1): Well, sir, that only, we are, all these things would learn that spiritual eyes. *Prabhupāda: That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). When you develop love for God, then you can have that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva . He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo . . . that you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. Reporter (1): I don't say that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see the spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for that position. *Reporter (6): That is your God submission. In regards to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the West—like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with . . . Christianity or society . . .? And do you also say the so*-called svāmīs . . . Prabhupāda: Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or a Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone. The money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact. Reporter (7): But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran. Reporter (7): Yes? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have got in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes. Reporter (8): You have got a center established in Iran? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (8): Within what time? Recently? Prabhupāda: I think about two years. Devotee: Tehran. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. In everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Reporter (8): How do they respond in China? Prabhupāda: Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel . . . everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders, that's all. Reporter (9): You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (9): In this context, how do you see the government of India? Prabhupāda: I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America the president is not liked. Reporter (5): Swāmījī, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (5): How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country? Prabhupāda: Because you did not lead them. You did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books. Reporter (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders? Prabhupāda: Where is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think . . . if the businessman is not spiritual leader . . . Reporter (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā , it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand, m an-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that, "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee. You just worship Me, offer your . . . " And Dr. Radhakrishnan says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see. This is . . . he is a scholar, he is a philosopher. Even Gandhi says that, "There was no Kṛṣṇa, it is all mythology." Then? How people will learn it? If Kṛṣṇa because mythology, the Bhagavad-gītā becomes imagination and anyone can interpret in any way, then where is the teaching? Reporter (7): Are the teachings themself . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try to understand that what is the defect. The defect is that malinterpretation, bad interpretation. Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then what right you have got to say that, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad-gītā ? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write in your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā ? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous. It has spoiled the whole country. You write your own philosophy. But why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and misinterpret it and mislead the people? That is my protest. Reporter (8): (indistinct) . . . Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter (8): Hyderabad project. Prabhupāda: Hyderabad? Reporter (8): What is your plan for Hyderabad project for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: What is your Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad project, that he knows, Mahāṁśa. Reporter (9): What your goal, to plan now in India? Your goal to plan now in India? How long you will be staying and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am going to see Bālajī, that's all. Bālajī. Reporter (9): And then go back to the States? Prabhupāda: No. Yeah I will go to Europe and . . . I'll go to London, then to Paris, then Germany, then Sweden, and Switzerland. I have got temples there. In Germany we have got four temples. In Sweden we have got. In Switzerland we have got. France we have got. In England we have got four, five. Reporter (9): No government is placing obstacles? Prabhupāda: No, they receive it very nicely. They understand that, "Swāmījī is doing something nice." Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Prabhupāda: . . . I shall speak? Mahāṁśa: First His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak something about our philosophy for a few minutes, and then you can ask questions. Prabhupāda: Yasya —anyone; asti —one, anyone who has; bhagavati —in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; *akiñcanā*-bhakti —unalloyed devotion, faith; *sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ —with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ : if one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities. So at the present moment, the godless civilization. Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of *Mahābhārata* that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge. Because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life. *In the śāstras we see that Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa, He taught His one hundred sons, "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working hard like cats and dogs for sense gratification." Ultimate end is sense gratification, satisfying the senses. This is the business of the cats and hogs, or dogs and hogs. The hog is whole day working to find out stool: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he gets some stool, little strength, immediately sex life, without any discrimination whether she is mother or sister or daughter. This kind of life is described in the śāstras as hog civilization. So at the present moment, without any reference to God consciousness, people are being taught to satisfy the senses, work very hard, and ruin the chance of human life. *This human life is specially meant for solving all the problems of life. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam . . . (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā . Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youthhood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of bodies, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. *But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ . And there are so many different varieties of bodies. *There are nine lakhs varieties of life in the water. Similarly, twenty lakhs varieties of life in the trees and plants. Then there are insects, then there are birds, then there are animals, then there is human being. So this human form of body is obtained after evolution of many millions and trillions of years. It should not be . . . this is a chance for stopping this business of repetition of birth and death. But people, they have no knowledge how to stop it. Although everything is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , everything is explained, but we are not utilizing. We are manufacturing our own concocted knowledge. Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical—everything is there. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for spreading the knowledge contained in the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). After understanding Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna affirmed, "Kṛṣṇa, You are Para-brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Brahman . . . every living entity is Brahman, or everything is Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is a fact. But Para-brahman is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the Vedic version. He is the Supreme. So unless we accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā ? So that we have to accept, and His instruction, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā , annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajña. Yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ . In this way people can be happy. *So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa , and . . . at least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not . . . it is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa , they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . So if you associate with sattva-guṇa , then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa , then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa , they are in knowledge. *Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas , and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . . . (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa . The next class, kṣatriyas , who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya , they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce food grains and give protection to the cows. *So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā . And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Thank you very much. Devotees: Haribol . (break) Mahāṁśa: Now we open the placement to the questions. Prabhupāda: Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can . . . *Reporter (1): Since you are following Bhagavad*-gītā , do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy? *Prabhupāda: Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt . So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living man. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. Reporter (1): Sorry, what I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one, as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says . . . *Prabhupāda: We are speaking from the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; *you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī , and my body is deha . So deha*-dehī , there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room; I am not this room. Similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is called illusion. Reporter (2): What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimate aim is that . . . Reporter (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I will say ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). See, our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life. Reporter (2): Is that perfection possible in one life? Prabhupāda: Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that: We change our body on account of sinful activities. But if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform. *As soon as you become unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you immediately transcend this material platform. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate . You remain in the spiritual platform. And if you die in the spiritual platform, then you go to the spiritual world. Reporter (3): But isn't the bhajana that you do . . . (indistinct) . . . for concentration? Prabhupāda: Yes, bhajana is concentration, reading is concentration . . . Reporter (3): No, besides that, any other type of concentration you do? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by concentration? Reporter (4): Meditation. Reporter (3): Meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you think . . . dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , in dhyāna , in meditation, they always see the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu within the heart. So that is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ . The jñānīs , they see by cultivation of knowledge, and the bhaktas , they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is understood from different angles of vision. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). That is Absolute Truth. Yaj jñānam advayam. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. The same thing in different angle of vision. The jñānīs , they realize as impersonal Brahman. The yogīs , they realize as Paramātmā situated in everyone's heart. And the bhaktas , they realize as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the thing is the same. It is the different angle of vision only. Reporter (2): What exactly is guru's role in your system? *Prabhupāda: To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā , constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt (SB 5.5.18). Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease." Reporter (4): . . . (indistinct question) *Prabhupāda: The Americans and the Europeans, they are fed up with this material type of civilization. They are . . . they know that spiritual life is there in India. They understand it. Therefore, any svāmī goes there, they go round him to take some spiritual instruction. Unfortunately, mostly they go who have no knowledge. They cannot give them right knowledge. So for the time being they may surround them, but after some time they disperse, because they do not get actually. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, now many svāmīs went there and they preached Bhagavad*-gītā also, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa for the last hundreds of years. But now Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, and people are taking it by hundreds, thousands. So they are after some knowledge, spiritual knowledge, from India, but our so-called svāmīs , they go, they do not give actual information of the Indian spiritual culture. Therefore they are practically deceived. But this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we do not change anything. In the Bhagavad-gītā you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So we are teaching them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." So they are accepting. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching that, "Just always think of Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and you will remember Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "And just become devotee. Worship the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. Become His bhakta ." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . "Worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Māṁ namaskuru : "Offer your obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." So we are teaching this arcanam . We have got hundred temples like this all over the world. And hundreds and thousands are joining. So this is practical. So they are accepting. Now it is our duty to give the actual Vedic culture, which is concise, summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sarvopaniṣad-gavaḥ , the essence of all Upaniṣads teaching. *So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of . . . but here Bhagavad*-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13): "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "You just produce sufficient food grains and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña ." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā ? Reporter (5): Do you think the Russian society is not put it off by this bhajana ? Prabhupāda: Russian? Reporter (5): Society. Prabhupāda: I do not know Russian society, but I can say I have been in Moscow. The people are not happy. That I can say. Reporter (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God in the sense of seeing the Lord's image in their heart? Prabhupāda: What is the mean, that? Reporter (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God . . . Prabhupāda: Vision of God you can see also. Here is vision of God. Reporter (1): In the sense of seeing Lord in their own heart? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, of course, later on. First of all see here is God, vision of God. Everyone can see. It is public. Why you ask my disciples? You can see also. No, no. Just like, vision of God, here is Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): That is physical vision. Prabhupāda: That's all. Physical means vision; your vision is also physical. Your vision is not spiritual. Whatever you see with your eyes, that is physical. That is not anything beyond physical. Reporter (1): See with spiritual eyes. Prabhupāda: Spiritual eyes, that's all right. But first of all you have to see whatever eyes you have got. You have got physical eyes. Why you are talking of spiritual eyes? Reporter (1): Well, sir, that only, we are, all these things would learn that spiritual eyes. *Prabhupāda: That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). When you develop love for God, then you can have that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva . He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo . . . that you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. Reporter (1): I don't say that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see the spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for that position. *Reporter (6): That is your God submission. In regards to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the West—like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with . . . Christianity or society . . .? And do you also say the so*-called svāmīs . . . Prabhupāda: Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or a Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone. The money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact. Reporter (7): But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran. Reporter (7): Yes? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have got in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes. Reporter (8): You have got a center established in Iran? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (8): Within what time? Recently? Prabhupāda: I think about two years. Devotee: Tehran. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. In everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Reporter (8): How do they respond in China? Prabhupāda: Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel . . . everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders, that's all. Reporter (9): You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (9): In this context, how do you see the government of India? Prabhupāda: I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America the president is not liked. Reporter (5): Swāmījī, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (5): How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country? Prabhupāda: Because you did not lead them. You did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books. Reporter (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders? Prabhupāda: Where is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think . . . if the businessman is not spiritual leader . . . Reporter (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā , it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand, m an-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that, "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee. You just worship Me, offer your . . . " And Dr. Radhakrishnan says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see. This is . . . he is a scholar, he is a philosopher. Even Gandhi says that, "There was no Kṛṣṇa, it is all mythology." Then? How people will learn it? If Kṛṣṇa because mythology, the Bhagavad-gītā becomes imagination and anyone can interpret in any way, then where is the teaching? Reporter (7): Are the teachings themself . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try to understand that what is the defect. The defect is that malinterpretation, bad interpretation. Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then what right you have got to say that, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad-gītā ? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write in your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā ? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous. It has spoiled the whole country. You write your own philosophy. But why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and misinterpret it and mislead the people? That is my protest. Reporter (8): (indistinct) . . . Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter (8): Hyderabad project. Prabhupāda: Hyderabad? Reporter (8): What is your plan for Hyderabad project for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: What is your Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad project, that he knows, Mahāṁśa. Reporter (9): What your goal, to plan now in India? Your goal to plan now in India? How long you will be staying and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am going to see Bālajī, that's all. Bālajī. Reporter (9): And then go back to the States? Prabhupāda: No. Yeah I will go to Europe and . . . I'll go to London, then to Paris, then Germany, then Sweden, and Switzerland. I have got temples there. In Germany we have got four temples. In Sweden we have got. In Switzerland we have got. France we have got. In England we have got four, five. Reporter (9): No government is placing obstacles? Prabhupāda: No, they receive it very nicely. They understand that, "Swāmījī is doing something nice." Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Prabhupāda: . . . Kerala? Eh? Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Kerala? You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma? Indian man (1): He was blaspheming our Society. He was saying . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that, because there may be one . . . because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals, but you do not become rascal. He may be . . . (break) . . . "Who will read Hindi? You do not . . . who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Mahārāja . . ." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru write his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still, Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English*-medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in family they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman—he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect, and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to . . . and even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Indian man (1): Not compulsory. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): Not compulsory. Prabhupāda: Not compulsory. So? *Indian man (1): Not Hindi. Also they are developing local languages. They are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English*-medium schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): But these are also . . . you study in the local languages. Don't study English. They are regulated. Now it seems like every college. Only few college . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English. Indian man (1): This is what I call cheating, to keep this. Prabhupāda: They are cheaters. Indian man (2): Hyderabad e emon keu nei je English jane na. (In Hyderabad, there is not a single person who doesn't know English.) . . . (indistinct) . . . in English. Prabhupāda: That is their local language. Indian man (1): Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees, they don't . . .?" Prabhupāda: Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some section they understand English. Everywhere. Indian man (1): English is common language. Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot avoid English. Pañcadraviḍa: Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English. Indian man (1): There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose. Prabhupāda: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand. Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi. Fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange. Indian man (2): He was blasting our Society. That's why I let him be that. Prabhupāda: No, still, you should not say like that. Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (3): English, they speak. That's the language they can understand, many things. And all the people can read it. Prabhupāda: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say: "No, no, no, I cannot accept English?" Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making Life Members, but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no. I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? Indian man: (indistinct) . . . at least one more . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I know one boy, he is about forty*-two years, but he, he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any . . . prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhanga Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over, now he is useless. He does not get any service, although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English—he does not get any responsible position. Pañcadraviḍa: He will not learn? Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: He does not want to learn? Prabhupāda: No, he was trying to learn, but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious. Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will . . . (indistinct) . . . local languages. Because those others don't speak English anymore. Prabhupāda: No, local language is required. Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language. Prabhupāda: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also you should learn, but . . . we can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there. (break) Pañcadraviḍa: . . . getting them into all the schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted. *Pañcadraviḍa: This is how it would work. This is Akṣayānanda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he gives them . . . sells them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa books and Nectar of Devotion , like this. *Prabhupāda: Best thing is that, "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher, Indian religion, Indian philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā . Then . . . he has written so many books, but not a single in Hindi." Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is from Madras. Indian man (1): Yes, he doesn't know. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyāsa , sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swāmījī, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . Kerala? Eh? Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Kerala? You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma? Indian man (1): He was blaspheming our Society. He was saying . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that, because there may be one . . . because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals, but you do not become rascal. He may be . . . (break) . . . "Who will read Hindi? You do not . . . who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Mahārāja . . ." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru write his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still, Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English*-medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in family they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman—he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect, and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to . . . and even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Indian man (1): Not compulsory. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): Not compulsory. Prabhupāda: Not compulsory. So? *Indian man (1): Not Hindi. Also they are developing local languages. They are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English*-medium schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): But these are also . . . you study in the local languages. Don't study English. They are regulated. Now it seems like every college. Only few college . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English. Indian man (1): This is what I call cheating, to keep this. Prabhupāda: They are cheaters. Indian man (2): Hyderabad e emon keu nei je English jane na. (In Hyderabad, there is not a single person who doesn't know English.) . . . (indistinct) . . . in English. Prabhupāda: That is their local language. Indian man (1): Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees, they don't . . .?" Prabhupāda: Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some section they understand English. Everywhere. Indian man (1): English is common language. Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot avoid English. Pañcadraviḍa: Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English. Indian man (1): There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose. Prabhupāda: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand. Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi. Fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange. Indian man (2): He was blasting our Society. That's why I let him be that. Prabhupāda: No, still, you should not say like that. Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (3): English, they speak. That's the language they can understand, many things. And all the people can read it. Prabhupāda: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say: "No, no, no, I cannot accept English?" Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making Life Members, but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no. I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? Indian man: (indistinct) . . . at least one more . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I know one boy, he is about forty*-two years, but he, he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any . . . prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhanga Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over, now he is useless. He does not get any service, although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English—he does not get any responsible position. Pañcadraviḍa: He will not learn? Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: He does not want to learn? Prabhupāda: No, he was trying to learn, but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious. Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will . . . (indistinct) . . . local languages. Because those others don't speak English anymore. Prabhupāda: No, local language is required. Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language. Prabhupāda: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also you should learn, but . . . we can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there. (break) Pañcadraviḍa: . . . getting them into all the schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted. *Pañcadraviḍa: This is how it would work. This is Akṣayānanda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he gives them . . . sells them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa books and Nectar of Devotion , like this. *Prabhupāda: Best thing is that, "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher, Indian religion, Indian philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā . Then . . . he has written so many books, but not a single in Hindi." Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is from Madras. Indian man (1): Yes, he doesn't know. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyāsa , sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swāmījī, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end) Satsvarūpa: Secretary, he said: "You write in your books that the . . . that your movement by Lord Caitanya is the . . . as if it's the most exclusive thing." He said: "But actually, in India the Rāmānuja is a more prominent Vaiṣṇava sect." So, as I understand our claim, it's based on the fact that we worship Kṛṣṇa in a higher form, in Kṛṣṇaloka, and they worship Kṛṣṇa which leads to Vaikuṇṭha. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . quarter there is no cinema, no song. Bhaja gopālam. (music playing in background, recording of a woman singing " bhaja gopāla ") Satsvarūpa: Śrīnivāsa said it is controlled by the temple here. Even the government doesn't control. Prabhupāda: This is all temple . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Devotee: . . . prominence. (break) Mr. Iyengar: We came here yesterday. We went to the temple three times, and just for a long . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Mr. Iyengar: This is my wife and daughter. You came yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes, I came yesterday at about eleven. Mr. Iyengar: We saw you in the evening going to the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice place. Mr. Iyengar: Very nice, beautiful place. Very inspiring. Where's somebody coming? (break) Prabhupāda: I am, of course, Indian, but I have got my headquarters in America. (chuckles) Yes. Mr. Iyengar: America. (chuckles) I think I have seen you at Bombay once. Prabhupāda: Yes, Bombay I have got my headquarters. Mr. Iyengar: And your friends were there at the airport, Santa Cruz Airport, and you came by plane, some two years back I remember. Prabhupāda: No, I am going every year. Two times, three times, I have to go all round the world. Mr. Iyengar: I respectfully request you your name, please. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That's all. Call me Prabhupāda. I am preaching this cult, what you have come to see, this being expanded all over the world. Mr. Iyengar: Yes, yes. It's very good. Prabhupāda: And we have got about hundred temples. Mr. Iyengar: At every America? Prabhupāda: No, no, all over the world. In America I have got forty temples. Mr. Iyengar: Forty temples. I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. In England we have got about five. And France, in German, we have got four. Mr. Iyengar: In Germany also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Germany, Sweden, Rome and Australia. Mr. Iyengar: They are also . . . they are very devoted to our creed, our religion? *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śa . . . ( BG 18.66). That is the only religion. Mr. Iyengar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is not religion. It is cheating. Only religion is to surrender to the Lord. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ (SB 1.2.6). *Mr. Iyengar: I am a Vaiṣṇavite, you see. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ pāpebhyo . . . (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is religion. Mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Mr. Iyengar: Oṁ namo nārāyaṇa (recites mantra ). These are our . . . is our mantra . *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you are Vaiṣṇava. The Vaiṣṇava, that is real form of religion. Others, they are not religion. It has been rejected in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra, kaitavaḥ religion is rejected. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Mr. Iyengar: We have to surrender ourselves to God. That's all. *Prabhupāda: That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if you one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the law, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name? Mr. Iyengar: Raj Gopal Iyengar. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa . Mr. Iyengar: Brāhmaṇa . Vaiṣṇavite. Prabhupāda: Yes, Iyengars are all . . . Mr. Iyengar: We belong to South India. Mrs. Iyengar: Yesterday I saw you in the temple, I and my daughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. How many children you have got? Mr. Iyengar: I have got three sons and four daughters. Prabhupāda: All daughters, sons. Mr. Iyengar: Three sons. Three daughters are married. This daughter is to be married. She is a doctorate. She has got M.Sc., Ph.D., in nuclear physics. She went to England for one year. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay in England? Daughter: Liverpool. Prabhupāda: Liverpool. I think we have got our branch. Daughter: Manchester. I have seen, Manchester. Prabhupāda: Manchester you have seen? Oh. Manchester, Liverpool and London . . . London we have got two. Mr. Iyengar: London, in London I have got my son. My son is there. Prabhupāda: Oh. What he is doing? Mr. Iyengar: He is employed there. Daughter: He's an accountant. Mr. Iyengar: He's an accountant, cost accountant. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your children are also . . . (laughs) Mr. Iyengar: I have got another boy in West Germany. West Germany, my last son. Prabhupāda: West Germany. Berlin? Mr. Iyengar: No, he is in Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Frankfurt. Oh, yes. Frankfurt is a big city. Sons are all married? Mr. Iyengar: The last son is not married. Two sons are married. Three daughters are . . . this daughter is to be married. We are trying; not able to get a suitable groom, you see. With your blessings I hope we will succeed. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Nowadays it is very difficult job to get married. (everyone laughs) Mrs. Iyengar: Suitable. Prabhupāda: Well, suitable cannot be. There is no suitable. Mr. Iyengar: Difficult to find. Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, as the girl is grown up, any boy. Mr. Iyengar: We used to marry at the age of ten, eleven. That is . . . those days have been forty years back. Prabhupāda: I was also married. My wife was eleven years old. Mr. Iyengar: My wife was eleven when she was married. I was only sixteen when I was married. Only a difference of four or five years. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And before that, I heard my father*-in-law, he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law was seven years old. My eldest sister was born at nine years old, and I was born after her marriage. Mr. Iyengar: I see. Those old days are finished. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa (end) Satsvarūpa: Secretary, he said: "You write in your books that the . . . that your movement by Lord Caitanya is the . . . as if it's the most exclusive thing." He said: "But actually, in India the Rāmānuja is a more prominent Vaiṣṇava sect." So, as I understand our claim, it's based on the fact that we worship Kṛṣṇa in a higher form, in Kṛṣṇaloka, and they worship Kṛṣṇa which leads to Vaikuṇṭha. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . quarter there is no cinema, no song. Bhaja gopālam. (music playing in background, recording of a woman singing " bhaja gopāla ") Satsvarūpa: Śrīnivāsa said it is controlled by the temple here. Even the government doesn't control. Prabhupāda: This is all temple . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Devotee: . . . prominence. (break) Mr. Iyengar: We came here yesterday. We went to the temple three times, and just for a long . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Mr. Iyengar: This is my wife and daughter. You came yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes, I came yesterday at about eleven. Mr. Iyengar: We saw you in the evening going to the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice place. Mr. Iyengar: Very nice, beautiful place. Very inspiring. Where's somebody coming? (break) Prabhupāda: I am, of course, Indian, but I have got my headquarters in America. (chuckles) Yes. Mr. Iyengar: America. (chuckles) I think I have seen you at Bombay once. Prabhupāda: Yes, Bombay I have got my headquarters. Mr. Iyengar: And your friends were there at the airport, Santa Cruz Airport, and you came by plane, some two years back I remember. Prabhupāda: No, I am going every year. Two times, three times, I have to go all round the world. Mr. Iyengar: I respectfully request you your name, please. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That's all. Call me Prabhupāda. I am preaching this cult, what you have come to see, this being expanded all over the world. Mr. Iyengar: Yes, yes. It's very good. Prabhupāda: And we have got about hundred temples. Mr. Iyengar: At every America? Prabhupāda: No, no, all over the world. In America I have got forty temples. Mr. Iyengar: Forty temples. I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. In England we have got about five. And France, in German, we have got four. Mr. Iyengar: In Germany also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Germany, Sweden, Rome and Australia. Mr. Iyengar: They are also . . . they are very devoted to our creed, our religion? *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śa . . . ( BG 18.66). That is the only religion. Mr. Iyengar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is not religion. It is cheating. Only religion is to surrender to the Lord. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ (SB 1.2.6). *Mr. Iyengar: I am a Vaiṣṇavite, you see. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ pāpebhyo . . . (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is religion. Mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Mr. Iyengar: Oṁ namo nārāyaṇa (recites mantra ). These are our . . . is our mantra . *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you are Vaiṣṇava. The Vaiṣṇava, that is real form of religion. Others, they are not religion. It has been rejected in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra, kaitavaḥ religion is rejected. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Mr. Iyengar: We have to surrender ourselves to God. That's all. *Prabhupāda: That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if you one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the law, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name? Mr. Iyengar: Raj Gopal Iyengar. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa . Mr. Iyengar: Brāhmaṇa . Vaiṣṇavite. Prabhupāda: Yes, Iyengars are all . . . Mr. Iyengar: We belong to South India. Mrs. Iyengar: Yesterday I saw you in the temple, I and my daughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. How many children you have got? Mr. Iyengar: I have got three sons and four daughters. Prabhupāda: All daughters, sons. Mr. Iyengar: Three sons. Three daughters are married. This daughter is to be married. She is a doctorate. She has got M.Sc., Ph.D., in nuclear physics. She went to England for one year. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay in England? Daughter: Liverpool. Prabhupāda: Liverpool. I think we have got our branch. Daughter: Manchester. I have seen, Manchester. Prabhupāda: Manchester you have seen? Oh. Manchester, Liverpool and London . . . London we have got two. Mr. Iyengar: London, in London I have got my son. My son is there. Prabhupāda: Oh. What he is doing? Mr. Iyengar: He is employed there. Daughter: He's an accountant. Mr. Iyengar: He's an accountant, cost accountant. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your children are also . . . (laughs) Mr. Iyengar: I have got another boy in West Germany. West Germany, my last son. Prabhupāda: West Germany. Berlin? Mr. Iyengar: No, he is in Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Frankfurt. Oh, yes. Frankfurt is a big city. Sons are all married? Mr. Iyengar: The last son is not married. Two sons are married. Three daughters are . . . this daughter is to be married. We are trying; not able to get a suitable groom, you see. With your blessings I hope we will succeed. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Nowadays it is very difficult job to get married. (everyone laughs) Mrs. Iyengar: Suitable. Prabhupāda: Well, suitable cannot be. There is no suitable. Mr. Iyengar: Difficult to find. Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, as the girl is grown up, any boy. Mr. Iyengar: We used to marry at the age of ten, eleven. That is . . . those days have been forty years back. Prabhupāda: I was also married. My wife was eleven years old. Mr. Iyengar: My wife was eleven when she was married. I was only sixteen when I was married. Only a difference of four or five years. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And before that, I heard my father*-in-law, he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law was seven years old. My eldest sister was born at nine years old, and I was born after her marriage. Mr. Iyengar: I see. Those old days are finished. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa (end) (Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady) *Yogeśvara: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā 13.22 purport) "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature." Prabhupāda: So this is our . . . because we are developing a different consciousness . . . different . . . consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that—not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā . Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā . Kirpal Singh disciple: Give up this staying here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kirpal Singh disciple: How? *Prabhupāda: We have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because such consciousness will help us to be free from the contamination of these different types of material consciousness and save us from transmigrating from one body to another. So we accept this different association on account of our strong propensity for sense gratification. Therefore we have to purify the senses so that the senses may be engaged in the service of the master of the senses. Hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . Bhakti means to be free from all sorts of material designation. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Italian"—these are all designations of the body. So we have to become free from these designations. And that is called nirmalam , purification. And when we are nirmalam , without any contamination, then we can engage the senses in the service of the master of the senses. Master of the senses is Kṛṣṇa, or God. Actually, He is master of the senses. Just like I am feeling comfort by using this sense, touch sense, hand, in this way, but I am not master, because at any moment this hand can be paralyzed. So I am not the master. The master is Kṛṣṇa. So if it is engaged in the service of the master, then it is in its normal condition. And then we are liberated. *And this purification you can take very easily by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately associate with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, nondifferent. So as, if we associate with fire it becomes warm, the quality of the fire comes; *as it is materially possible, spiritually it is possible in perfect order. Process is the same. You associate with Kṛṣṇa, and you become Kṛṣṇaite, as pure as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is therefore advising, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So Kirpal Singh also studies Bhagavad-gītā ? I am asking this. Kirpal Singh, he teaches on the Bhagavad-gītā ? Kirpal Singh disciple: I didn't get that. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Your master, does he study Bhagavad*-gītā ? Kirpal Singh disciple: My master is a teacher of the science of the soul. Prabhupāda: What is that, science of the soul? Kirpal Singh disciple: Well, just like what you have been saying, purifying the senses and becoming in consciousness through a master, to know a way of purification by not . . . eating properly and thinking properly. Prabhupāda: The idea is purify the senses. Kirpal Singh disciple: And meditating, meditation. Being devoted, your life will be changed. The master teaches these things, purification. He has written also some books. When he came to America in 1967, I met him personally. And he initiated a group of people. And I was also kind of aiming at that, being a vegetarian a few years prior to that. He accepted me and gave me initiation with the group. And, of course, he went back in about . . . he stayed in the States about twelve days, then he came in Europe. Then he went back. I haven't seen him ever since. I have a picture of him. I carry a picture of him, the leader of . . . in our movement. Think of . . . meditating on the master. And I try to live up to it, to the teachings. Would you like to see that picture? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, I have seen this gentleman. In Delhi I have seen him. Kirpal Singh disciple: In New Delhi. And there are the five names of meditation on the back. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: I can't read it. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham, sat*-nāma. *Kirpal Singh disciple: Sat*-nāma . Those five names, according to your way and its positions, you will be attracted to one of the names. Everyone is a center of power, energy, the way he taught us. Whatever you fear . . . (indistinct) . . . what particular name one . . . someone that you're attracted to that name. Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra , so 'ham and sat-nāma . I thought that I met a good master. Dhanañjaya: Mr. O'Grady. Desmond O'Grady and some of his friends have just arrived. They'd like to come and see you and speak with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is the Irish poet. (guests enter) Dhanañjaya: Please sit down. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you? Woman: Very well, thank you. Desmond O'Grady: We are very well and very tired. We've been traveling a long, long way, a long road from Delhi. (indistinct comments as guests enter and settle) Dhanañjaya: Desmond is a poet. He's written books also, published in London. And tomorrow he goes to . . . where is it? To Sicily to a convention of poets and writers, international conference for writers and poets. He's representing Ireland. He's coming from Limerick in Southern Ireland. *Desmond O'Grady: This is my friend Michael Robert . . . (indistinct) . . . we are colleagues together since we teach literature, English literature. And this is another friend of ours who has just come from Greece. Everybody seems to be traveling within the last twenty*-four hours. This is a young painter friend of mine, Robert Jackson, also from Ireland, who's a painter, first time in Italy, out of Ireland, and he's staying with me at the moment. He came back with me from Ireland just a few weeks ago. Prabhupāda: We are also writing books, so many. You have seen our books? Desmond O'Grady: I have seen some, yes, because some of the friends have come up and . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) Some of the books, you can show him. Here is one book, Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yogeśvara: You have seen the Bhagavad*-gītā , haven't you, in English? Desmond O'Grady: Oh, yes, but not this particular edition. Yogeśvara: This we just recently published in German, a German edition. Desmond O'Grady: A German edition . . . (indistinct) . . . who has published them? Yogeśvara: This was published in Germany. I don't remember the name of the publisher. This is Macmillan Company, and this is the life of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who began the chanting. Bhagavān: All these books are illustrated by our artists in New York. Desmond O'Grady: They illustrated this? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, they are beautiful. Robert Jackson: Some fantastic work. I've been looking at . . . when you came to the house . . . Desmond O'Grady: The text is in . . . Bhagavān: There's original text in Bengali. This book is in Bengali. Desmond O'Grady: And Sanskrit. Bhagavān: Sanskrit, which Prabhupāda translates himself and gives the explanation and purport. Woman: . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: (Sanskrit) Every night Śrīla Prabhupāda dictates into a Dictaphone, and his secretaries type and edit. And then we have a press in New York which composes and prints. Desmond O'Grady: It's a very nice edition, that Macmillan edition. Very nicely done. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have fifth edition within two years. Five editions. Desmond O'Grady: Five editions in two years. Prabhupāda: Yes. And each time they print fifty thousand books. Desmond O'Grady: This new printing. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London about few months ago, we got report they sold thirty thousand copies in two months. Desmond O'Grady: Thirty thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman: In which country of Europe has the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement been the most powerful or successful? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Woman: Every one? Prabhupāda: Everywhere, yes. In Africa, in America, in Canada, in Japan, in China. Most successful in America. Most successful. Many men have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Woman: What about Greece? Prabhupāda: I never went to Greece. Satsvarūpa: You said you went to the airport and they were chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Really? Woman: I would think they would be in danger in Athens. Bhagavān: It is danger. Woman: There's no way that this movement could be very successful in Athens or in Greece. Not too many things are successful in Greece. Prabhupāda: Yes, when I was going to Nairobi from London, I got down, transit, on the hall. Some young men, as soon as they saw me, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Woman: That's very brave of them. Desmond O'Grady: No, really? In Greece, this was? In Athens? Prabhupāda: Athens, yes. Desmond O'Grady: Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of . . . do you think they're going . . . well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting permissions to go . . . Prabhupāda: That problem is everywhere. Desmond O'Grady: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired. Desmond O'Grady: They become tired. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: The system. The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome . . . Prabhupāda: But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter) Desmond O'Grady: No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now. Prabhupāda: I think the fighting is going on still. Desmond O'Grady: Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here . . . *Prabhupāda: You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life that, "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu . . . (SB 10.84.13). There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog"; the cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped. Desmond O'Grady: What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference. Desmond O'Grady: The Englishman thinks there's a difference. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When you think that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . You will find this verse. (aside) Find out this verse: Nitāi: Yes, 14.26. "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question, what is the means of attaining to the transcendental position? As explained before, the material world is acting under the spell of the modes of material nature. One should not be disturbed by the activities of the modes of nature. Instead of putting his consciousness into such activities, he may transfer his consciousness to Kṛṣṇa activities. Kṛṣṇa activities are known as bhakti*-yoga —always acting for Kṛṣṇa. This includes not only Kṛṣṇa, but His different plenary expansions such as Rāma and Nārāyaṇa. He has innumerable expansions. One who is engaged in the service of any of the forms of Kṛṣṇa or of His plenary expansions is considered to be transcendentally situated. One should also note that all the forms of Kṛṣṇa are fully transcendental, blissful, full of knowledge and eternal. Such personalities of Godhead are omnipotent and omniscient, and they possess all transcendental qualities. So if one engages himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa or His plenary expansions with unfailing determination, although these modes of material nature are very difficult to overcome, he can overcome them easily." "This is already explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa at once surmounts the influence of the modes of material nature. To be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or in devotional service, means to acquire the equality of Kṛṣṇa. The Lord says that His nature is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, and the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme, as gold particles are part of a gold mine. Thus the living entity's spiritual position is as good as gold, as good as Kṛṣṇa in quality. The difference of individuality continues; *otherwise there is no question of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means that the Lord is there, the devotee is there and the activity of exchange of love between the Lord and the devotee is there. Therefore the individuality of two persons is present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual person, otherwise there is no meaning to bhakti-yoga . If one is not situated in the same transcendental position with the Lord, one cannot serve the Supreme Lord. To be a personal assistant to a king, one must acquire the qualifications. Thus the qualification is to become Brahman, or freed from all material contamination. It is said in the Vedic literature, brahmaiva san brahmāpyeti . One can attain the Supreme Brahman by becoming Brahman. This means that one must qualitatively become one with Brahman. By attainment of Brahman, one does not lose his eternal Brahman identity as the individual soul." Prabhupāda: (aside) Find out this verse. Desmond O'Grady: The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously . . . Prabhupāda: Just like in our Society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Muhammadans. But they are no longer Muhammadan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. And that is Brahman realization. Desmond O'Grady: But that's giving it a name also. That's also giving it a name, isn't it? Label. *Prabhupāda: Yes, name must be there. But name . . . just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that, "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names . . . that is called so 'ham . One feels . . . the same example: in a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā ? Nitāi: "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." Purport. Prabhupāda: He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes. Purport? *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or the pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta , oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there in a higher, spiritual sense." "In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Kṛṣṇa, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; *higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with the ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him, stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma*-bhūta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like the broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuṇṭha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age." Desmond O'Grady: Could you read the opening little bit again? Nitāi: In the purport? Desmond O'Grady: Yeah. *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word." Desmond O'Grady: Okay. Now, is the Absolute internal or external? Prabhupāda: Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute. Desmond O'Grady: I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own absolute, ultimately the absolute that one finds for oneself. Prabhupāda: No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So, so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute. Desmond O'Grady: So therefore there is a life beyond time. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse. Nitāi: Chapter Four, text nine: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to . . . in the spiritual world, that is absolute. Desmond O'Grady: When he goes back to his original. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute. Desmond O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time? Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nation. And after that, again there was war. (chuckles) Desmond O'Grady: (indistinct) . . . analogy. Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nation. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united. But when I go New York, I see flags are increasing; *no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so*-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform. Desmond O'Grady: I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, or an intuition, that . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is possibility—when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black . . ." Desmond O'Grady: Christian. Prabhupāda: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world. Desmond O'Grady: That's very . . . I'll accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are. Desmond O'Grady: I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom. Prabhupāda: No human being is immortal. Desmond O'Grady: Mortal, mortal, mortal. Prabhupāda: Mortal. Desmond O'Grady: That which dies, rots and is forgotten. *Prabhupāda: That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality, it is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform, because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate va kadācin (BG 2.20). (aside) Find out. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Desmond O'Grady: But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing? Prabhupāda: No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. (aside) Read this verse. Nitāi: *"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Prabhupāda: That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality . . . because actually he is immortal. Desmond O'Grady: Actuality is immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Desmond O'Grady: Hmm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth . . . Desmond O'Grady: Never takes bath? Yogeśvara: Birth. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in the gentle art of conversation. Prabhupāda: Actually . . . just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations. Desmond O'Grady: Accepted. Prabhupāda: So when one is free from the designation, then he becomes purified. So when we become purified, our senses are purified, and when the purified senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is perfect life. That is nonduality, absolute. Bhagavān: That can be experienced in the present. Prabhupāda: Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups—Americans, Indians, Africans—but you don't think yourself as American or Indians or African. Desmond O'Grady: But the system insists that you do. Prabhupāda: Eh? Desmond O'Grady: But the system expects that you do. Bhagavān: The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality. Desmond O'Grady: Materialistic society means duality. But that's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Because of your physical existence . . . Prabhupāda: Unavoidable, yes . . . Desmond O'Grady: . . . and your personal spiritualism as well. Prabhupāda: But it can be avoided in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water. Yogeśvara: Did you understand? Desmond O'Grady: I didn't catch that last expression, no. Bhagavān: Lily leaf. Yogeśvara: To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental. Bhagavān: There's a lily leaf that sits on the water, and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda is explaining we can be in this world . . . Desmond O'Grady: Yes. But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one, necessarily. Because if you like . . . if put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements, here you should get a mountain of salt. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If you can try to understand this example. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, I can understand. Prabhupāda: What is that, salt? Salt example was . . . explain. Yogeśvara: What was your point? Desmond O'Grady: I'm saying it's difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different, you know. Prabhupāda: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, I accept that, of course. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is . . . (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . there's a great difference between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking . . . Prabhupāda: That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious. Desmond O'Grady: God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious. Desmond O'Grady: To become self conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: To be conscious of who you are yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness. Desmond O'Grady: Well, it may be. Prabhupāda: No. Desmond O'Grady: You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect. Prabhupāda: When you are God conscious . . . Desmond O'Grady: Without being pantheistic, you mean? Prabhupāda: Just like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious. You also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear. Desmond O'Grady: Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most beautiful in them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state—because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition; they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one—what we are faced with is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here?" "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said, didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way, "Who am I?" "You are . . ." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also. Prabhupāda: So . . . Desmond O'Grady: And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally . . . and one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or . . . I mean, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education? That's the basic question. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is . . . there are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master." Desmond O'Grady: One must . . .? Prabhupāda: Approach the bona fide spiritual master. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Approach. Desmond O'Grady: The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do? Prabhupāda: No, there is. Desmond O'Grady: If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do? *Prabhupāda: No, we have got standard. The . . . who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like . . . the one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the . . . just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man. Desmond O'Grady: Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master—if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Desmond O'Grady: But then, you see, my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a saintly man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says: "Well, they tell me, the priests, they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God." Prabhupāda: No. Desmond O'Grady: And then he comes to me and asks me and says: "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between God and me. *Desmond O'Grady: That's the difference between being seventy and thirty*-nine. *Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of . . . that is explained in the . . . that Bhāgavata, Brahma*-sūtra , who is God, first of all. Who is God? Desmond O'Grady: Who told God? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God . . . that is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , janmādy asya yataḥ : "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ . "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said that, "Who taught God?" Desmond O'Grady: Yes, that's the man I want to meet. *Prabhupāda: That is answered, sva*-rāṭ : "Independent." That is God. Desmond O'Grady: Independ . . .? Prabhupāda: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God. Desmond O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it? Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are, being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God. Desmond O'Grady: Therefore we love. Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God. Desmond O'Grady: But God is not love? Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Desmond O'Grady: And manifestations of love are manifestations of God. Prabhupāda: Ah . . . because we are part and parcel . . . just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms. So because there is loving propensity in God, and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it? Desmond O'Grady: Maybe it's generated in you by the need . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be. Must be. Desmond O'Grady: (laughs) Oh, very . . . yes, I accept the strong word. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of . . . because we have defined God, janmādy asya yataḥ . God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity—absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same; *therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from śāstras : the so*-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, the vengeful. Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against . . . is it possible to do it all alone? Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone? *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet , this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar. This is called vidhiliṅ form of verb. So vidhiliṅ form of verb is used when there is a . . . matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam . And that is the Vedic version. Therefore . . . you have read Bhagavad-gītā . You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. (aside) Find out this verse. Nitāi: Text seven. "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness." Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . here is the question, "confused." Desmond O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that's what it is. Prabhupāda: Then . . . Nitāi: ". . . and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am . . ." Desmond O'Grady: This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state? Prabhupāda: He is confused because he was a kṣatriya , soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya . Why you are trying to become nonviolent? This is not good." Therefore he says: "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician. Similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge. Desmond O'Grady: Right. So therefore, for example, I am very confused. Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He is confused. Desmond O'Grady: Very confused. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: And you make a decision, therefore, to try to sort this confusion, to make some . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test. *This whole world is confusion, just like a blazing fire in the forest. When there is forest fire, all the animals become confused, "Where to go? How to save life?" It is very good example. When there is fire in the forest, all the animals become confused. Similarly, this material world is just like a blazing fire in the forest. Everyone is confused. Now, how the blazing fire in the forest can be extinguished? You cannot take there your man*-made fire brigade. That is not possible. Neither bucketful of water. So in this confused state of the human society you cannot manufacture the solution. The only solution is that when there is rain from the cloud on the forest fire, then it is extinguished. That is not in your hand; *that is mercy of God. So spiritual master means who has received the mercy of God, and he can deliver to the confused man. Then the solution is there. This is very good verse, saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya. One who has received mercy of God, he can become spiritual master. He can deliver the mercy of God. Desmond O'Grady: A friend, for example. Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A real friend. Desmond O'Grady: Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of . . . *Ātreya Ṛṣi: True well*-wisher. *Desmond O'Grady: There's no question of being half*-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend. Prabhupāda: Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master, because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend. Desmond O'Grady: The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: Okay. Thank you. That I know. *Prabhupāda: Therefore God is called caittya*-guru , the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without—without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated: *All our questions are answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. Nitāi: "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." Prabhupāda: The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction, "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the . . . so if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we wanted something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He is very kind. Īśvaraḥ sarva . . . I want to have something, and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know. We must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Desmond O'Grady: His Grace must be very tired. Dhanañjaya: We can distribute some prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Give them. Bhagavān: Stay, we have some prasādam , something to eat. Michael Robert: We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session, and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday, at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and . . . (indistinct) . . . our students. They're invited to come. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Bhagavān: It's here in Rome. Yogeśvara: It's a school in Rome. Michael Robert: If you'd like to come. (indistinct comments about the school) Yogeśvara: An American school here in Rome. Prabhupāda: Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. Desmond O'Grady: Just to pay a visit, meet the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness. Michael Robert: God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Thank you very much. Michael Robert: Thank you very much. Thank you all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Please stay for one minute. Prabhupāda: Please take prasāda . Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction. *There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ , when there is perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam : when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being. Desmond O'Grady: Well, in my experience, the process seems to be . . . it seems to be that while you begin . . . first of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this. Prabhupāda: And that choosing is given. This is this verse, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ : "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible. Desmond O'Grady: This one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Not his brother, not his sister, but this one. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Everyone is important. Desmond O'Grady: But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it. Prabhupāda: No, no, just . . . when we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, but you said . . . Prabhupāda: All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, but what I was saying . . . Prabhupāda: The God means complete. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen? Desmond O'Grady: I'm saying . . . yes, a spiritual master, the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God—that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music. Prabhupāda: No, whatever you do . . . music also, you can compose . . . Desmond O'Grady: That's it . . . yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Okay, I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation. Prabhupāda: Not same thing. When you describe . . . music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection. Desmond O'Grady: Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understandable . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that when you're working in the land . . . Desmond O'Grady: That's what you're supposed to be doing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work. Desmond O'Grady: I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of . . . (indistinct) Yogeśvara: You could say, with the same consciousness. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same . . . Yogeśvara: Devotion. Desmond O'Grady: . . . devotion. Absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way; enjoying yourself the same way; and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. (pause) Michael Robert: We should go now. We should give this man some peace . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very kind to see you, the students on Tuesday. You're not offended I hope, by other teachers, other attitudes. Desmond O'Grady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Michael Robert: We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. Goodbye. Prabhupāda: Alright. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady) *Yogeśvara: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā 13.22 purport) "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature." Prabhupāda: So this is our . . . because we are developing a different consciousness . . . different . . . consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that—not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā . Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā . Kirpal Singh disciple: Give up this staying here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kirpal Singh disciple: How? *Prabhupāda: We have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because such consciousness will help us to be free from the contamination of these different types of material consciousness and save us from transmigrating from one body to another. So we accept this different association on account of our strong propensity for sense gratification. Therefore we have to purify the senses so that the senses may be engaged in the service of the master of the senses. Hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . Bhakti means to be free from all sorts of material designation. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Italian"—these are all designations of the body. So we have to become free from these designations. And that is called nirmalam , purification. And when we are nirmalam , without any contamination, then we can engage the senses in the service of the master of the senses. Master of the senses is Kṛṣṇa, or God. Actually, He is master of the senses. Just like I am feeling comfort by using this sense, touch sense, hand, in this way, but I am not master, because at any moment this hand can be paralyzed. So I am not the master. The master is Kṛṣṇa. So if it is engaged in the service of the master, then it is in its normal condition. And then we are liberated. *And this purification you can take very easily by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately associate with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, nondifferent. So as, if we associate with fire it becomes warm, the quality of the fire comes; *as it is materially possible, spiritually it is possible in perfect order. Process is the same. You associate with Kṛṣṇa, and you become Kṛṣṇaite, as pure as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is therefore advising, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So Kirpal Singh also studies Bhagavad-gītā ? I am asking this. Kirpal Singh, he teaches on the Bhagavad-gītā ? Kirpal Singh disciple: I didn't get that. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Your master, does he study Bhagavad*-gītā ? Kirpal Singh disciple: My master is a teacher of the science of the soul. Prabhupāda: What is that, science of the soul? Kirpal Singh disciple: Well, just like what you have been saying, purifying the senses and becoming in consciousness through a master, to know a way of purification by not . . . eating properly and thinking properly. Prabhupāda: The idea is purify the senses. Kirpal Singh disciple: And meditating, meditation. Being devoted, your life will be changed. The master teaches these things, purification. He has written also some books. When he came to America in 1967, I met him personally. And he initiated a group of people. And I was also kind of aiming at that, being a vegetarian a few years prior to that. He accepted me and gave me initiation with the group. And, of course, he went back in about . . . he stayed in the States about twelve days, then he came in Europe. Then he went back. I haven't seen him ever since. I have a picture of him. I carry a picture of him, the leader of . . . in our movement. Think of . . . meditating on the master. And I try to live up to it, to the teachings. Would you like to see that picture? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, I have seen this gentleman. In Delhi I have seen him. Kirpal Singh disciple: In New Delhi. And there are the five names of meditation on the back. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: I can't read it. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham, sat*-nāma. *Kirpal Singh disciple: Sat*-nāma . Those five names, according to your way and its positions, you will be attracted to one of the names. Everyone is a center of power, energy, the way he taught us. Whatever you fear . . . (indistinct) . . . what particular name one . . . someone that you're attracted to that name. Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra , so 'ham and sat-nāma . I thought that I met a good master. Dhanañjaya: Mr. O'Grady. Desmond O'Grady and some of his friends have just arrived. They'd like to come and see you and speak with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is the Irish poet. (guests enter) Dhanañjaya: Please sit down. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you? Woman: Very well, thank you. Desmond O'Grady: We are very well and very tired. We've been traveling a long, long way, a long road from Delhi. (indistinct comments as guests enter and settle) Dhanañjaya: Desmond is a poet. He's written books also, published in London. And tomorrow he goes to . . . where is it? To Sicily to a convention of poets and writers, international conference for writers and poets. He's representing Ireland. He's coming from Limerick in Southern Ireland. *Desmond O'Grady: This is my friend Michael Robert . . . (indistinct) . . . we are colleagues together since we teach literature, English literature. And this is another friend of ours who has just come from Greece. Everybody seems to be traveling within the last twenty*-four hours. This is a young painter friend of mine, Robert Jackson, also from Ireland, who's a painter, first time in Italy, out of Ireland, and he's staying with me at the moment. He came back with me from Ireland just a few weeks ago. Prabhupāda: We are also writing books, so many. You have seen our books? Desmond O'Grady: I have seen some, yes, because some of the friends have come up and . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) Some of the books, you can show him. Here is one book, Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yogeśvara: You have seen the Bhagavad*-gītā , haven't you, in English? Desmond O'Grady: Oh, yes, but not this particular edition. Yogeśvara: This we just recently published in German, a German edition. Desmond O'Grady: A German edition . . . (indistinct) . . . who has published them? Yogeśvara: This was published in Germany. I don't remember the name of the publisher. This is Macmillan Company, and this is the life of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who began the chanting. Bhagavān: All these books are illustrated by our artists in New York. Desmond O'Grady: They illustrated this? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, they are beautiful. Robert Jackson: Some fantastic work. I've been looking at . . . when you came to the house . . . Desmond O'Grady: The text is in . . . Bhagavān: There's original text in Bengali. This book is in Bengali. Desmond O'Grady: And Sanskrit. Bhagavān: Sanskrit, which Prabhupāda translates himself and gives the explanation and purport. Woman: . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: (Sanskrit) Every night Śrīla Prabhupāda dictates into a Dictaphone, and his secretaries type and edit. And then we have a press in New York which composes and prints. Desmond O'Grady: It's a very nice edition, that Macmillan edition. Very nicely done. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have fifth edition within two years. Five editions. Desmond O'Grady: Five editions in two years. Prabhupāda: Yes. And each time they print fifty thousand books. Desmond O'Grady: This new printing. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London about few months ago, we got report they sold thirty thousand copies in two months. Desmond O'Grady: Thirty thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman: In which country of Europe has the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement been the most powerful or successful? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Woman: Every one? Prabhupāda: Everywhere, yes. In Africa, in America, in Canada, in Japan, in China. Most successful in America. Most successful. Many men have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Woman: What about Greece? Prabhupāda: I never went to Greece. Satsvarūpa: You said you went to the airport and they were chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Really? Woman: I would think they would be in danger in Athens. Bhagavān: It is danger. Woman: There's no way that this movement could be very successful in Athens or in Greece. Not too many things are successful in Greece. Prabhupāda: Yes, when I was going to Nairobi from London, I got down, transit, on the hall. Some young men, as soon as they saw me, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Woman: That's very brave of them. Desmond O'Grady: No, really? In Greece, this was? In Athens? Prabhupāda: Athens, yes. Desmond O'Grady: Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of . . . do you think they're going . . . well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting permissions to go . . . Prabhupāda: That problem is everywhere. Desmond O'Grady: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired. Desmond O'Grady: They become tired. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: The system. The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome . . . Prabhupāda: But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter) Desmond O'Grady: No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now. Prabhupāda: I think the fighting is going on still. Desmond O'Grady: Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here . . . *Prabhupāda: You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life that, "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu . . . (SB 10.84.13). There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog"; the cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped. Desmond O'Grady: What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference. Desmond O'Grady: The Englishman thinks there's a difference. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When you think that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . You will find this verse. (aside) Find out this verse: Nitāi: Yes, 14.26. "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question, what is the means of attaining to the transcendental position? As explained before, the material world is acting under the spell of the modes of material nature. One should not be disturbed by the activities of the modes of nature. Instead of putting his consciousness into such activities, he may transfer his consciousness to Kṛṣṇa activities. Kṛṣṇa activities are known as bhakti*-yoga —always acting for Kṛṣṇa. This includes not only Kṛṣṇa, but His different plenary expansions such as Rāma and Nārāyaṇa. He has innumerable expansions. One who is engaged in the service of any of the forms of Kṛṣṇa or of His plenary expansions is considered to be transcendentally situated. One should also note that all the forms of Kṛṣṇa are fully transcendental, blissful, full of knowledge and eternal. Such personalities of Godhead are omnipotent and omniscient, and they possess all transcendental qualities. So if one engages himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa or His plenary expansions with unfailing determination, although these modes of material nature are very difficult to overcome, he can overcome them easily." "This is already explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa at once surmounts the influence of the modes of material nature. To be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or in devotional service, means to acquire the equality of Kṛṣṇa. The Lord says that His nature is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, and the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme, as gold particles are part of a gold mine. Thus the living entity's spiritual position is as good as gold, as good as Kṛṣṇa in quality. The difference of individuality continues; *otherwise there is no question of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means that the Lord is there, the devotee is there and the activity of exchange of love between the Lord and the devotee is there. Therefore the individuality of two persons is present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual person, otherwise there is no meaning to bhakti-yoga . If one is not situated in the same transcendental position with the Lord, one cannot serve the Supreme Lord. To be a personal assistant to a king, one must acquire the qualifications. Thus the qualification is to become Brahman, or freed from all material contamination. It is said in the Vedic literature, brahmaiva san brahmāpyeti . One can attain the Supreme Brahman by becoming Brahman. This means that one must qualitatively become one with Brahman. By attainment of Brahman, one does not lose his eternal Brahman identity as the individual soul." Prabhupāda: (aside) Find out this verse. Desmond O'Grady: The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously . . . Prabhupāda: Just like in our Society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Muhammadans. But they are no longer Muhammadan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. And that is Brahman realization. Desmond O'Grady: But that's giving it a name also. That's also giving it a name, isn't it? Label. *Prabhupāda: Yes, name must be there. But name . . . just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that, "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names . . . that is called so 'ham . One feels . . . the same example: in a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā ? Nitāi: "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." Purport. Prabhupāda: He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes. Purport? *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or the pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta , oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there in a higher, spiritual sense." "In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Kṛṣṇa, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; *higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with the ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him, stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma*-bhūta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like the broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuṇṭha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age." Desmond O'Grady: Could you read the opening little bit again? Nitāi: In the purport? Desmond O'Grady: Yeah. *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word." Desmond O'Grady: Okay. Now, is the Absolute internal or external? Prabhupāda: Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute. Desmond O'Grady: I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own absolute, ultimately the absolute that one finds for oneself. Prabhupāda: No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So, so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute. Desmond O'Grady: So therefore there is a life beyond time. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse. Nitāi: Chapter Four, text nine: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to . . . in the spiritual world, that is absolute. Desmond O'Grady: When he goes back to his original. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute. Desmond O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time? Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nation. And after that, again there was war. (chuckles) Desmond O'Grady: (indistinct) . . . analogy. Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nation. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united. But when I go New York, I see flags are increasing; *no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so*-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform. Desmond O'Grady: I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, or an intuition, that . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is possibility—when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black . . ." Desmond O'Grady: Christian. Prabhupāda: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world. Desmond O'Grady: That's very . . . I'll accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are. Desmond O'Grady: I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom. Prabhupāda: No human being is immortal. Desmond O'Grady: Mortal, mortal, mortal. Prabhupāda: Mortal. Desmond O'Grady: That which dies, rots and is forgotten. *Prabhupāda: That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality, it is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform, because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate va kadācin (BG 2.20). (aside) Find out. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Desmond O'Grady: But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing? Prabhupāda: No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. (aside) Read this verse. Nitāi: *"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Prabhupāda: That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality . . . because actually he is immortal. Desmond O'Grady: Actuality is immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Desmond O'Grady: Hmm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth . . . Desmond O'Grady: Never takes bath? Yogeśvara: Birth. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in the gentle art of conversation. Prabhupāda: Actually . . . just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations. Desmond O'Grady: Accepted. Prabhupāda: So when one is free from the designation, then he becomes purified. So when we become purified, our senses are purified, and when the purified senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is perfect life. That is nonduality, absolute. Bhagavān: That can be experienced in the present. Prabhupāda: Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups—Americans, Indians, Africans—but you don't think yourself as American or Indians or African. Desmond O'Grady: But the system insists that you do. Prabhupāda: Eh? Desmond O'Grady: But the system expects that you do. Bhagavān: The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality. Desmond O'Grady: Materialistic society means duality. But that's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Because of your physical existence . . . Prabhupāda: Unavoidable, yes . . . Desmond O'Grady: . . . and your personal spiritualism as well. Prabhupāda: But it can be avoided in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water. Yogeśvara: Did you understand? Desmond O'Grady: I didn't catch that last expression, no. Bhagavān: Lily leaf. Yogeśvara: To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental. Bhagavān: There's a lily leaf that sits on the water, and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda is explaining we can be in this world . . . Desmond O'Grady: Yes. But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one, necessarily. Because if you like . . . if put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements, here you should get a mountain of salt. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If you can try to understand this example. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, I can understand. Prabhupāda: What is that, salt? Salt example was . . . explain. Yogeśvara: What was your point? Desmond O'Grady: I'm saying it's difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different, you know. Prabhupāda: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, I accept that, of course. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is . . . (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . there's a great difference between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking . . . Prabhupāda: That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious. Desmond O'Grady: God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious. Desmond O'Grady: To become self conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: To be conscious of who you are yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness. Desmond O'Grady: Well, it may be. Prabhupāda: No. Desmond O'Grady: You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect. Prabhupāda: When you are God conscious . . . Desmond O'Grady: Without being pantheistic, you mean? Prabhupāda: Just like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious. You also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear. Desmond O'Grady: Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most beautiful in them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state—because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition; they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one—what we are faced with is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here?" "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said, didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way, "Who am I?" "You are . . ." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also. Prabhupāda: So . . . Desmond O'Grady: And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally . . . and one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or . . . I mean, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education? That's the basic question. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is . . . there are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master." Desmond O'Grady: One must . . .? Prabhupāda: Approach the bona fide spiritual master. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Approach. Desmond O'Grady: The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do? Prabhupāda: No, there is. Desmond O'Grady: If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do? *Prabhupāda: No, we have got standard. The . . . who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like . . . the one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the . . . just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man. Desmond O'Grady: Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master—if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Desmond O'Grady: But then, you see, my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a saintly man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says: "Well, they tell me, the priests, they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God." Prabhupāda: No. Desmond O'Grady: And then he comes to me and asks me and says: "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between God and me. *Desmond O'Grady: That's the difference between being seventy and thirty*-nine. *Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of . . . that is explained in the . . . that Bhāgavata, Brahma*-sūtra , who is God, first of all. Who is God? Desmond O'Grady: Who told God? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God . . . that is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , janmādy asya yataḥ : "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ . "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said that, "Who taught God?" Desmond O'Grady: Yes, that's the man I want to meet. *Prabhupāda: That is answered, sva*-rāṭ : "Independent." That is God. Desmond O'Grady: Independ . . .? Prabhupāda: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God. Desmond O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it? Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are, being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God. Desmond O'Grady: Therefore we love. Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God. Desmond O'Grady: But God is not love? Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Desmond O'Grady: And manifestations of love are manifestations of God. Prabhupāda: Ah . . . because we are part and parcel . . . just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms. So because there is loving propensity in God, and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it? Desmond O'Grady: Maybe it's generated in you by the need . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be. Must be. Desmond O'Grady: (laughs) Oh, very . . . yes, I accept the strong word. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of . . . because we have defined God, janmādy asya yataḥ . God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity—absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same; *therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from śāstras : the so*-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, the vengeful. Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against . . . is it possible to do it all alone? Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone? *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet , this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar. This is called vidhiliṅ form of verb. So vidhiliṅ form of verb is used when there is a . . . matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam . And that is the Vedic version. Therefore . . . you have read Bhagavad-gītā . You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. (aside) Find out this verse. Nitāi: Text seven. "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness." Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . here is the question, "confused." Desmond O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that's what it is. Prabhupāda: Then . . . Nitāi: ". . . and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am . . ." Desmond O'Grady: This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state? Prabhupāda: He is confused because he was a kṣatriya , soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya . Why you are trying to become nonviolent? This is not good." Therefore he says: "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician. Similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge. Desmond O'Grady: Right. So therefore, for example, I am very confused. Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He is confused. Desmond O'Grady: Very confused. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: And you make a decision, therefore, to try to sort this confusion, to make some . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test. *This whole world is confusion, just like a blazing fire in the forest. When there is forest fire, all the animals become confused, "Where to go? How to save life?" It is very good example. When there is fire in the forest, all the animals become confused. Similarly, this material world is just like a blazing fire in the forest. Everyone is confused. Now, how the blazing fire in the forest can be extinguished? You cannot take there your man*-made fire brigade. That is not possible. Neither bucketful of water. So in this confused state of the human society you cannot manufacture the solution. The only solution is that when there is rain from the cloud on the forest fire, then it is extinguished. That is not in your hand; *that is mercy of God. So spiritual master means who has received the mercy of God, and he can deliver to the confused man. Then the solution is there. This is very good verse, saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya. One who has received mercy of God, he can become spiritual master. He can deliver the mercy of God. Desmond O'Grady: A friend, for example. Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A real friend. Desmond O'Grady: Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of . . . *Ātreya Ṛṣi: True well*-wisher. *Desmond O'Grady: There's no question of being half*-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend. Prabhupāda: Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master, because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend. Desmond O'Grady: The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: Okay. Thank you. That I know. *Prabhupāda: Therefore God is called caittya*-guru , the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without—without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated: *All our questions are answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. Nitāi: "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." Prabhupāda: The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction, "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the . . . so if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we wanted something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He is very kind. Īśvaraḥ sarva . . . I want to have something, and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know. We must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Desmond O'Grady: His Grace must be very tired. Dhanañjaya: We can distribute some prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Give them. Bhagavān: Stay, we have some prasādam , something to eat. Michael Robert: We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session, and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday, at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and . . . (indistinct) . . . our students. They're invited to come. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Bhagavān: It's here in Rome. Yogeśvara: It's a school in Rome. Michael Robert: If you'd like to come. (indistinct comments about the school) Yogeśvara: An American school here in Rome. Prabhupāda: Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. Desmond O'Grady: Just to pay a visit, meet the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness. Michael Robert: God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Thank you very much. Michael Robert: Thank you very much. Thank you all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Please stay for one minute. Prabhupāda: Please take prasāda . Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction. *There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ , when there is perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam : when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being. Desmond O'Grady: Well, in my experience, the process seems to be . . . it seems to be that while you begin . . . first of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this. Prabhupāda: And that choosing is given. This is this verse, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ : "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible. Desmond O'Grady: This one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Not his brother, not his sister, but this one. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Everyone is important. Desmond O'Grady: But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it. Prabhupāda: No, no, just . . . when we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, but you said . . . Prabhupāda: All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, but what I was saying . . . Prabhupāda: The God means complete. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen? Desmond O'Grady: I'm saying . . . yes, a spiritual master, the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God—that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music. Prabhupāda: No, whatever you do . . . music also, you can compose . . . Desmond O'Grady: That's it . . . yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Okay, I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation. Prabhupāda: Not same thing. When you describe . . . music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection. Desmond O'Grady: Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understandable . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that when you're working in the land . . . Desmond O'Grady: That's what you're supposed to be doing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work. Desmond O'Grady: I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of . . . (indistinct) Yogeśvara: You could say, with the same consciousness. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same . . . Yogeśvara: Devotion. Desmond O'Grady: . . . devotion. Absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way; enjoying yourself the same way; and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. (pause) Michael Robert: We should go now. We should give this man some peace . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very kind to see you, the students on Tuesday. You're not offended I hope, by other teachers, other attitudes. Desmond O'Grady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Michael Robert: We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. Goodbye. Prabhupāda: Alright. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope - His Eminence Cardinal Pignedoli and Monsignor Verrozano) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm! Yogeśvara: . . . can it be found anywhere else aside from Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: I don't think. Yogeśvara: In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Because they are all ahaitukī ; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihatā ( SB 1.2.6). That is the version. (break) ( kīrtana ) (break) Dhanañjaya: . . . our spiritual master, and he is the founder of our International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Dhanañjaya: This is Prabhupāda's first visit to Rome, to Italy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, yes. You will stay some days here? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Bhagavān: You have visited India? Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India. Bhagavān: You have been to Vṛndāvana? Cardinal Pignedoli: No, I have been to Vārāṇasī, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in . . . Nepal also. Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, very nice. New Delhi, same. And Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh? Monsignor Verrozano: South India. Cardinal Pignedoli: In Kerala? Monsignor Verrozano: Kerala, Tiruchirappalli . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: I haven't been there. Monsignor Verrozano: . . . Cochin, Madras. Bombay, of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, I visited. Prabhupāda: Bombay, there was function. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: At that time, you were there? Monsignor Verrozano: In January. Dhanañjaya: At Cross Maidan. Cross Maidan. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. *Bhagavān: That was our festival, the Bhāgavata*-dharma discourses. We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, yes. And just last year about the twentieth of January, it was this week of festivals also, this . . . (indistinct) . . . of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in . . . (indistinct) Monsignor Verrozano: Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that . . . that is first*-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, Adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata*-dharma . *So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta*-sūtra , Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā , "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms . . ." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals—eating, sleeping, sex life and defending—then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana , the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ . . . deham means this body. After this death . . . there are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. *So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . The publisher is Messrs. Macmillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty thousand copies, and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam , and explained. Then . . . this is graduate study. Then after this there is postgraduate study, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhāgavatam , is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion . Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion . So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the Western countries. Recently we have received report, some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introduced in their class, Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold . . . eh? Dhanañjaya: Four million pieces. Prabhupāda: Four millions pieces of books in the Western countries. So you are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that, "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" *So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this verse. (aside) Find out. *Yeṣām, y*-e-s-a-m . A person who is completely free from all sinful contamination, such person can become a pure devotee of God. Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the association of pure devotees, who can deliver one from delusion." *"It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality nor to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination." *Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, we chant always God's name on these beads. And we worship . . . (pause) (someone enters) (guest showing pictures) This is also a church? Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Prabhupāda: Tibet. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama. Prabhupāda: Buddhism. Monsignor Verrozano: Buddhist, but this is from India. Prabhupāda: This is Hindu temple. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. The Mahakrish. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends to God, we are all friends, and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know . . . you are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you go into these places or amongst these people . . . there are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to . . . but we thank you for your visit and for your . . . for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia, probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you . . . have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places? Prabhupāda: Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited. Cardinal Pignedoli: Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God . . . well, I wouldn't say to the Muslim world, because they are good believers, and God is probably . . . they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometime, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and so on, these are cities where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity, and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, eh, if I understand it well. Prabhupāda: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana , a prayer, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . so this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God. And Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in Your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā . I think . . . māyā . So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render, because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then we render service to māyā . Therefore it is the prayer to God that, "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they sometimes say that, "We are now in māyā . As soon as we are out of māyā , then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here, and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life, or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā , that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotovsky, the indologist. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: You were. Prabhupāda: No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So, so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government suppresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; *simply it is being suppressed, either by the so*-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā . We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte . One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began, that process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means first class. But simply a sentiment will not help. Therefore a religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimentality." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be . . . or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . Monsignor Verrozano: In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals? *Prabhupāda: No, love for man . . . let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception, because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma , they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. (aside) Can you find out this? *There are different species of life, sarva*-yoni. Yoni means species of life. And there are forms, different forms. But within that form . . . (aside) Yes, read it. Nitāi: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words: sevā , the Sanskrit word sevā , and dayā . You know something of Sanskrit, no? Monsignor Verrozano: Some words, yes. *Prabhupāda: Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea . . . just like in India they say daridra*-nārāyaṇa, some mission, that to give service to the human being and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good. *Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā , verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this . . . *Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. (break) . . . cannot make any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva*-yoniṣu . . . just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is not . . . if actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible. Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a . . . Prabhupāda: Lover of God. Cardinal Pignedoli: To become lovers of God, friends to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, of events—not of ideas; of events, of reality—do you think there are many—these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today? Prabhupāda: Mostly. Cardinal Pignedoli: Mostly. You think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: And then you think that men of God are a minority? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before, I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: God has also some hobby. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling . . . I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose always—I try to do this—people who are unbeliever, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God . . . we are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know . . . priests, Catholic priests, will, go to an area, because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or go to Copenhagen, where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your Society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not . . . Prabhupāda: For all. Cardinal Pignedoli: For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do they . . . do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present. Prabhupāda: No, we go everywhere. Cardinal Pignedoli: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: Local people. Local citizens. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process is so nice—that is recommended process in this age—the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," we dance. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere. *Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that, "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, thank you for your explanations. Prabhupāda: And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese—everyone. Monsignor Verrozano: And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known? I am just coming from Bangkok, where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the . . . (indistinct) . . . order. And have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God. Cardinal and Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Also practically . . . theoretically yes, but practically, do you think that they are atheistic, practically? Because . . . theoretically you see. Prabhupāda: No, no. Our . . . yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa. Cardinal Pignedoli: Also some of them, they believe in . . . they think Buddha is a god, and they are believers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are exclusive, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not what . . . but because we are few . . . I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa, where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan? Prabhupāda: Yes, we go. Cardinal Pignedoli: This is more important, because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although . . . I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why you don't choose these . . .? This is my question. These areas where Japan, for instance, is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly, but the . . . it's called . . . Monsignor Verrozano: . . . (indistinct) Cardinal Pignedoli: No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday, Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask. Then you go to Japan? Dhanañjaya: Yes, we have a center in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong. Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went . . . I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical . . . or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead. That is first*-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first . . . and besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. In the . . . (aside) Find out this verse: "Out of many millions of persons," manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu , "somebody is trying to make his life perfect." Others, they are simply trying to enjoy life like animals. So manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , and yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3): "And out of many millions of such persons who are trying to make his life perfect, hardly one can understand what is God." This is the statement. (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. *Nitāi: "There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman." "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. *It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti , or devotional service, is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually, the path of bhakti is not easy. The so*-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually, according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu : 'Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the *Upaniṣads* , *Purāṇas* , Nārada Pañcarātra , etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.' "It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist nor the Paramātmā realized yogī to understand *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ, māṁ tu veda na kaścana, 'No one knows Me as I am,' the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), 'Such a great soul is very rare . . .' If one does know Him, such a great soul is very rare. Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is ( tattvataḥ ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said: 'No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service to Him.' " That's from the *Padma Purāṇa* . Prabhupāda: So the position is that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular . . . because in truth, hardly very few people understands what is God. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real, again, and . . . *Bhagavān: Do they have a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā ? Dhanañjaya: I don't think you have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: What is this? Dhanañjaya: If you like, you can take this. Cardinal Pignedoli: I have, I have this. Dhanañjaya: You can have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, I have. Thank you. *Bhagavān: There are many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā , but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock has said very nicely. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, we have also many translations. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have not brought by the fruit? Nitāi: Yes, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja did. Monsignor Verrozano: We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zaehner from Oxford. Prabhupāda: Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock. Yogeśvara: This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment. Prabhupāda: You read, read it. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock's. Cardinal Pignedoli: It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel. Prabhupāda: Read it. Dhanañjaya: (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is legitimate. Dhanañjaya: "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic . . ." Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Prabhupāda: A Kṛṣṇa devotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, and a nondevotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, there is far difference. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Realize, Realize. Prabhupāda: So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated. When the scripture is translated by . . . Prabhupāda: That is because it is legitimate. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, it's very important. Prabhupāda: Read it again. Monsignor Verrozano: You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter. *Dhanañjaya: "In this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. This book is then a welcome addition from many points of view. It can serve as a valuable textbook for the college student. It allows us to listen to a skilled interpreter explicating a text which has profound religious meaning. It gives us insights into the original and highly convincing ideas of the Gauḍiya Vaiṣṇava school. In providing the Sanskrit in both Devanagari and transliteration, it offers the Sanskrit specialist the opportunity to re*-interpret, or debate particular Sanskrit meanings—although I think there will be little disagreement about the quality of the Swami's Sanskrit scholarship. And finally, for the nonspecialist, there is readable English and a devotional attitude which cannot help but move the sensitive reader. And there are the paintings, which, incredibly as it may seem to those familiar with contemporary Indian religious art, were done by American devotees." "The scholar, the student of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism, and the increasing number of Western readers interested in classical Vedic thought have been done a service by Swami Bhaktivedanta. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, he has increased our understanding manyfold, and arguments for understanding, in these days of estrangement, need not be made." This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this. Monsignor Verrozano: Thank you. It will be a source also for . . . (indistinct) . . . also to give true interpretation, yes, by devotee. Prabhupāda: The trades manager of Messrs. Macmillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing. Cardinal Pignedoli: A great sign of interest. Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: . . . stressing . . . each other. Prabhupāda: Kindly pray to God. *Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . now you know it. You have been here, with Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Muslims. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French*-speaking Africa. Dhanañjaya: Some of our devotees are going to Lagos. Cardinal Pignedoli: Ah, Lagos. Ah, yeah. You are going, also you? Dhanañjaya: No, not me. My Godbrothers . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Muslims, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end) (Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope - His Eminence Cardinal Pignedoli and Monsignor Verrozano) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm! Yogeśvara: . . . can it be found anywhere else aside from Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: I don't think. Yogeśvara: In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Because they are all ahaitukī ; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihatā ( SB 1.2.6). That is the version. (break) ( kīrtana ) (break) Dhanañjaya: . . . our spiritual master, and he is the founder of our International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Dhanañjaya: This is Prabhupāda's first visit to Rome, to Italy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, yes. You will stay some days here? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Bhagavān: You have visited India? Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India. Bhagavān: You have been to Vṛndāvana? Cardinal Pignedoli: No, I have been to Vārāṇasī, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in . . . Nepal also. Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, very nice. New Delhi, same. And Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh? Monsignor Verrozano: South India. Cardinal Pignedoli: In Kerala? Monsignor Verrozano: Kerala, Tiruchirappalli . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: I haven't been there. Monsignor Verrozano: . . . Cochin, Madras. Bombay, of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, I visited. Prabhupāda: Bombay, there was function. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: At that time, you were there? Monsignor Verrozano: In January. Dhanañjaya: At Cross Maidan. Cross Maidan. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. *Bhagavān: That was our festival, the Bhāgavata*-dharma discourses. We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, yes. And just last year about the twentieth of January, it was this week of festivals also, this . . . (indistinct) . . . of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in . . . (indistinct) Monsignor Verrozano: Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that . . . that is first*-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, Adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata*-dharma . *So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta*-sūtra , Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā , "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms . . ." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals—eating, sleeping, sex life and defending—then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana , the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ . . . deham means this body. After this death . . . there are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. *So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . The publisher is Messrs. Macmillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty thousand copies, and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam , and explained. Then . . . this is graduate study. Then after this there is postgraduate study, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhāgavatam , is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion . Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion . So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the Western countries. Recently we have received report, some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introduced in their class, Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold . . . eh? Dhanañjaya: Four million pieces. Prabhupāda: Four millions pieces of books in the Western countries. So you are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that, "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" *So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this verse. (aside) Find out. *Yeṣām, y*-e-s-a-m . A person who is completely free from all sinful contamination, such person can become a pure devotee of God. Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the association of pure devotees, who can deliver one from delusion." *"It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality nor to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination." *Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, we chant always God's name on these beads. And we worship . . . (pause) (someone enters) (guest showing pictures) This is also a church? Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Prabhupāda: Tibet. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama. Prabhupāda: Buddhism. Monsignor Verrozano: Buddhist, but this is from India. Prabhupāda: This is Hindu temple. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. The Mahakrish. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends to God, we are all friends, and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know . . . you are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you go into these places or amongst these people . . . there are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to . . . but we thank you for your visit and for your . . . for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia, probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you . . . have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places? Prabhupāda: Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited. Cardinal Pignedoli: Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God . . . well, I wouldn't say to the Muslim world, because they are good believers, and God is probably . . . they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometime, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and so on, these are cities where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity, and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, eh, if I understand it well. Prabhupāda: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana , a prayer, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . so this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God. And Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in Your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā . I think . . . māyā . So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render, because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then we render service to māyā . Therefore it is the prayer to God that, "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they sometimes say that, "We are now in māyā . As soon as we are out of māyā , then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here, and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life, or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā , that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotovsky, the indologist. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: You were. Prabhupāda: No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So, so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government suppresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; *simply it is being suppressed, either by the so*-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā . We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte . One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began, that process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means first class. But simply a sentiment will not help. Therefore a religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimentality." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be . . . or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . Monsignor Verrozano: In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals? *Prabhupāda: No, love for man . . . let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception, because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma , they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. (aside) Can you find out this? *There are different species of life, sarva*-yoni. Yoni means species of life. And there are forms, different forms. But within that form . . . (aside) Yes, read it. Nitāi: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words: sevā , the Sanskrit word sevā , and dayā . You know something of Sanskrit, no? Monsignor Verrozano: Some words, yes. *Prabhupāda: Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea . . . just like in India they say daridra*-nārāyaṇa, some mission, that to give service to the human being and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good. *Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā , verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this . . . *Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. (break) . . . cannot make any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva*-yoniṣu . . . just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is not . . . if actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible. Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a . . . Prabhupāda: Lover of God. Cardinal Pignedoli: To become lovers of God, friends to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, of events—not of ideas; of events, of reality—do you think there are many—these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today? Prabhupāda: Mostly. Cardinal Pignedoli: Mostly. You think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: And then you think that men of God are a minority? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before, I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: God has also some hobby. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling . . . I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose always—I try to do this—people who are unbeliever, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God . . . we are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know . . . priests, Catholic priests, will, go to an area, because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or go to Copenhagen, where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your Society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not . . . Prabhupāda: For all. Cardinal Pignedoli: For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do they . . . do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present. Prabhupāda: No, we go everywhere. Cardinal Pignedoli: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: Local people. Local citizens. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process is so nice—that is recommended process in this age—the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," we dance. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere. *Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that, "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, thank you for your explanations. Prabhupāda: And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese—everyone. Monsignor Verrozano: And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known? I am just coming from Bangkok, where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the . . . (indistinct) . . . order. And have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God. Cardinal and Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Also practically . . . theoretically yes, but practically, do you think that they are atheistic, practically? Because . . . theoretically you see. Prabhupāda: No, no. Our . . . yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa. Cardinal Pignedoli: Also some of them, they believe in . . . they think Buddha is a god, and they are believers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are exclusive, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not what . . . but because we are few . . . I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa, where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan? Prabhupāda: Yes, we go. Cardinal Pignedoli: This is more important, because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although . . . I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why you don't choose these . . .? This is my question. These areas where Japan, for instance, is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly, but the . . . it's called . . . Monsignor Verrozano: . . . (indistinct) Cardinal Pignedoli: No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday, Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask. Then you go to Japan? Dhanañjaya: Yes, we have a center in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong. Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went . . . I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical . . . or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead. That is first*-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first . . . and besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. In the . . . (aside) Find out this verse: "Out of many millions of persons," manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu , "somebody is trying to make his life perfect." Others, they are simply trying to enjoy life like animals. So manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , and yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3): "And out of many millions of such persons who are trying to make his life perfect, hardly one can understand what is God." This is the statement. (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. *Nitāi: "There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman." "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. *It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti , or devotional service, is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually, the path of bhakti is not easy. The so*-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually, according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu : 'Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the *Upaniṣads* , *Purāṇas* , Nārada Pañcarātra , etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.' "It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist nor the Paramātmā realized yogī to understand *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ, māṁ tu veda na kaścana, 'No one knows Me as I am,' the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), 'Such a great soul is very rare . . .' If one does know Him, such a great soul is very rare. Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is ( tattvataḥ ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said: 'No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service to Him.' " That's from the *Padma Purāṇa* . Prabhupāda: So the position is that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular . . . because in truth, hardly very few people understands what is God. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real, again, and . . . *Bhagavān: Do they have a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā ? Dhanañjaya: I don't think you have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: What is this? Dhanañjaya: If you like, you can take this. Cardinal Pignedoli: I have, I have this. Dhanañjaya: You can have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, I have. Thank you. *Bhagavān: There are many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā , but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock has said very nicely. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, we have also many translations. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have not brought by the fruit? Nitāi: Yes, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja did. Monsignor Verrozano: We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zaehner from Oxford. Prabhupāda: Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock. Yogeśvara: This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment. Prabhupāda: You read, read it. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock's. Cardinal Pignedoli: It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel. Prabhupāda: Read it. Dhanañjaya: (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is legitimate. Dhanañjaya: "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic . . ." Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Prabhupāda: A Kṛṣṇa devotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, and a nondevotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, there is far difference. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Realize, Realize. Prabhupāda: So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated. When the scripture is translated by . . . Prabhupāda: That is because it is legitimate. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, it's very important. Prabhupāda: Read it again. Monsignor Verrozano: You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter. *Dhanañjaya: "In this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. This book is then a welcome addition from many points of view. It can serve as a valuable textbook for the college student. It allows us to listen to a skilled interpreter explicating a text which has profound religious meaning. It gives us insights into the original and highly convincing ideas of the Gauḍiya Vaiṣṇava school. In providing the Sanskrit in both Devanagari and transliteration, it offers the Sanskrit specialist the opportunity to re*-interpret, or debate particular Sanskrit meanings—although I think there will be little disagreement about the quality of the Swami's Sanskrit scholarship. And finally, for the nonspecialist, there is readable English and a devotional attitude which cannot help but move the sensitive reader. And there are the paintings, which, incredibly as it may seem to those familiar with contemporary Indian religious art, were done by American devotees." "The scholar, the student of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism, and the increasing number of Western readers interested in classical Vedic thought have been done a service by Swami Bhaktivedanta. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, he has increased our understanding manyfold, and arguments for understanding, in these days of estrangement, need not be made." This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this. Monsignor Verrozano: Thank you. It will be a source also for . . . (indistinct) . . . also to give true interpretation, yes, by devotee. Prabhupāda: The trades manager of Messrs. Macmillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing. Cardinal Pignedoli: A great sign of interest. Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: . . . stressing . . . each other. Prabhupāda: Kindly pray to God. *Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . now you know it. You have been here, with Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Muslims. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French*-speaking Africa. Dhanañjaya: Some of our devotees are going to Lagos. Cardinal Pignedoli: Ah, Lagos. Ah, yeah. You are going, also you? Dhanañjaya: No, not me. My Godbrothers . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Muslims, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end) *(Welcomed by Governor at Hotel de Ville - translated by Guru*-gaurāṅga from French) Governor: In the name of the Canton of Geneva and the city, we wish to extend our heartfelt welcome to you. This republic is an independent state, part of Switzerland, and it has a reputation for being a great center of dialogue between all men of science, philosophy and religion. Geneva is the seat of the World Council of Churches, and there is a Protestant pastor who is there as representative of the Canton of Geneva. Unique among the cities of the world, Geneva has had the privilege to greet many great religious heads such as Pope Paul VI, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and many others. As civil authorities, we are very much encouraged by religious or spiritual groups because they contribute to wake up the consciousness of the people, provided, of course, that they respect all the laws. For thousands of years, man has tried to find perfection through religious means, and for us what is so much important is that this be done with tolerance, that whatever the books, whether they be the books of India or the Torah or the Koran, that they contribute to a general welfare of all men and not that they fight each other. There is the need currently for men to understand each other better and hear each other better. The modern world neither has the time nor the interest to tolerate divisions between men, especially on the spiritual platform. As a result, everyone must try to improve the fate of the individual man through these means. Should we not, then, try to find some common language with which to solve these problems, all the while respecting the dignity of the common man? And we hope finally that this trip in Europe will give Your Divine Grace new perspectives in the search for the truth. Prabhupāda: I can speak in English? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (he asks in French) The president says that you may speak directly in English, no translation needed. *Prabhupāda: So, Monsieur President and Ladies and Gentlemen, the kind words that you have spoken to receive me, I thank you very much for the same. Our preaching principle is bhāgavata*-dharma , and we do not say: "This is Christian religion" or "Hindu religion" or "Muhammadan religion." We speak the science of God. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is a verse which says: *"That is first*-class religious system which teaches the follower how to love God." It doesn't matter what is the type of religion, religious process. Phalena paricīyate : the thing is proved by the result, how one has learned to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. There are two kinds of religious engagements: one is called inferior and the other is called superior. The superior religious system is that which teaches the followers how to love God. Now, what kind of love? That is also expressed there: ahaitukī , without any motive; and apratihatā. Apratihatā means that religious system cannot be checked by any kind of material impediments. If we come to that platform, then ātmā—ātmā means the mind, the soul, also the body, intelligence—everything becomes fully satisfied. *So our this principle of teaching is based on Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Give him the book. Perhaps you have heard the name of Bhagavad-gītā , and some of you might have read it, Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra to groups of cousin-brothers. They were fighting to occupy the kingdom, and in that place Lord Kṛṣṇa, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, happened to be present as the chariot driver of one group, Arjuna. So Arjuna was trying to avoid the fighting because the other side, there were relatives, brothers. At that time he was lamenting his bodily relationship, "The other side is my brother, my grandfather, my nephews, my son-in-laws." So that was the platform of speaking Bhagavad-gītā . So first of all, Kṛṣṇa explained that "We are not this body." The first instruction was given: *The first instruction of spiritual life is to understand that, "I am not this body." The example is given, very simple thing, that I am present, although I remember that I had a small body lying down on the lap of my mother. I remember, when I was six months old, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and she was knitting. I still remember that. So everyone, we remember that we had a small body, and then another small body, then another small body. Those bodies are gone. I have got a different body now, but I remember that I had all these bodies. Therefore the conclusion should be for the sober man that "Although we have changed so many bodies, I, the person, the soul, am existing." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, when I shall give up this body, I shall accept another body. This is the beginning of understanding that, "I am not this body. I am living in this body just like I am not this coat, but I am living within the coat." *There is very vivid example in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we read, we can understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." When this realization is there that, "I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . the exact word used in the Vedic literature, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That stage has to be attained in human form of life. In the animal forms of life, this understanding that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," in the animal stage of life it is not possible to understand. But in the human form of life it is possible because human being is advanced in consciousness and knowledge, and if he is educated, he can understand. And if he actually understands, then his position becomes brahma*-bhūtaḥ , self-realized, prasannātmā . Immediately he becomes jubilant. There is no more any cause of moroseness. That is the symptom. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then there is no more hankering or lamentation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. At that stage, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, we can see everyone spirit soul. I don't see an American or a Swiss gentleman or a French gentleman or a cat or dog or tree, but I see the spirit soul. That, in that spiritual state, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , one can see that within this body there is the spirit soul, and he wants to work for benefit of the spirit soul, not for the temporary body. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just on the principles of this Bhagavad*-gītā , to understand his real identity, spiritual identity. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *One who is actually paṇḍita . . . paṇḍita means learned, and in spiritually learned, he sees that a very learned scholar, brahmin , and a dog, an elephant, a cow, or a low*-born man, creature—all on the same platform of spiritual life. So unless we come to that point, this so-called fighting and sectarianism will go on. So we want to teach people . . . not only sectarian people in India or the so-called Hindus or Muslims or Christians—everyone. Because everyone is spirit soul, and as soon as he understands that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then he becomes completely happy. Yenātmā samprasīdati. So people will not be happy, will not be satisfied, unless and until he comes to that spiritual understanding. So our humble method is on this principle that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." And the spirit soul is eternal, therefore he has got to come to the platform of eternal happiness, eternal life and full knowledge. That is the perfection of life. And any type of religion—it doesn't matter what it is—which teaches this philosophy of life, that is first*-class religious system. That is our conclusion. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (has conversation with someone in French) The president would like to talk to you for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give me little water. (more French conversation) I was formally received by the French Cardinal. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Danielou. Prabhupāda: Daniel. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) He says that the discussion you had with the Cardinal was very interesting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you come to that position of understanding that, "I am not this body," real spiritual knowledge does not begin. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Understanding the philosophy, Monsieur le President does not understand why we find it necessary to dress differently, though. *Prabhupāda: The different dress means as you have paid for it. Just like we can go to a tailor, he will supply you dress according to the payment you can make. Similarly, according to our karma , according to our work, we are given a type of body by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). According . . . because actually I do not possess this material body, but because I am in this material world, I am given a type of body by the material nature according to my work. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Speaking about clothes, Monsieur le President says that he has been to India, and he understands that one dresses like this in India. But why would the disciples dress in America or in Europe in this way? Is it necessary? Prabhupāda: No. It is not necessary. Dress you can have as you like. It doesn't matter, because dress is a dead thing. Real thing is that we want a living being who can understand. That is real the position. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Monsieur le President would like to know, if this movement gets bigger and bigger, won't it create problems in terms of working, the economy? Won't the economy suffer if our movement gets bigger and bigger? *Prabhupāda: No. Economy will not suffer, but economy will be simplified, because we have made some artificial economy. Actually, in the Bhagavad*-gītā we find the economic problem is solved by producing food grains. It is stated there, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "By eating food grains, both the animals and the men, they become stout and strong." That's a fact. (Guru-gaurāṅga translates) According to Bhagavad-gītā , economic problem can be solved anywhere. If you get . . . if you have some land, you produce your food grain and give it to the animals, especially to the cows, and she will give you in return milk. So if you get milk, fruits, vegetable and food grains, the whole economic problem is solved. *We have already started this example in New Virginia. A group of men, we have got about five hundred acres of land, and we keep cows, and they work to produce some vegetable and food grain. So they don't go outside for solving economic problems. At the present moment—now I am coming from India—in Bombay there is strike, railway strike. People are in so miserable condition to go to their work fifty miles, forty miles, hundred miles for earning their bread. This kind of economic situation has increased the problems of life. Rather, if we accept this economic problem solution, then anywhere, any part of the world you live, you don't require to go outside hundred miles, two hundred miles, five hundred miles. No. You produce your food there, keep animals, then everything is solved. Actually, the problem is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : One should take up these problems very seriously: birth, death, old age and disease. So . . . actually, as spirit soul we have no birth, no death. You will find in the Bhagavad, na jayate na mriyate vā kadācit : "The living entity does not take birth." Na jayate na mriyate vā : "Neither he dies." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "After the destruction of the body, the living entity does not annihilate." He . . . just like we have got already the example: my body, childhood body, is annihilated; still, I am existing. Similarly, I will exist. Now, the problem is how I shall exist. I shall exist eternally in full knowledge and in blissfulness. That is the idea. But so long we accept this material body, it is just the opposite. It is miserable, without any knowledge and without eternity. Philosophy should be to save our time from complicated economic problems. We should make our life simple and save time for spiritual cultivation, so that we can be relieved from repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating for president) Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *(Welcomed by Governor at Hotel de Ville - translated by Guru*-gaurāṅga from French) Governor: In the name of the Canton of Geneva and the city, we wish to extend our heartfelt welcome to you. This republic is an independent state, part of Switzerland, and it has a reputation for being a great center of dialogue between all men of science, philosophy and religion. Geneva is the seat of the World Council of Churches, and there is a Protestant pastor who is there as representative of the Canton of Geneva. Unique among the cities of the world, Geneva has had the privilege to greet many great religious heads such as Pope Paul VI, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and many others. As civil authorities, we are very much encouraged by religious or spiritual groups because they contribute to wake up the consciousness of the people, provided, of course, that they respect all the laws. For thousands of years, man has tried to find perfection through religious means, and for us what is so much important is that this be done with tolerance, that whatever the books, whether they be the books of India or the Torah or the Koran, that they contribute to a general welfare of all men and not that they fight each other. There is the need currently for men to understand each other better and hear each other better. The modern world neither has the time nor the interest to tolerate divisions between men, especially on the spiritual platform. As a result, everyone must try to improve the fate of the individual man through these means. Should we not, then, try to find some common language with which to solve these problems, all the while respecting the dignity of the common man? And we hope finally that this trip in Europe will give Your Divine Grace new perspectives in the search for the truth. Prabhupāda: I can speak in English? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (he asks in French) The president says that you may speak directly in English, no translation needed. *Prabhupāda: So, Monsieur President and Ladies and Gentlemen, the kind words that you have spoken to receive me, I thank you very much for the same. Our preaching principle is bhāgavata*-dharma , and we do not say: "This is Christian religion" or "Hindu religion" or "Muhammadan religion." We speak the science of God. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is a verse which says: *"That is first*-class religious system which teaches the follower how to love God." It doesn't matter what is the type of religion, religious process. Phalena paricīyate : the thing is proved by the result, how one has learned to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. There are two kinds of religious engagements: one is called inferior and the other is called superior. The superior religious system is that which teaches the followers how to love God. Now, what kind of love? That is also expressed there: ahaitukī , without any motive; and apratihatā. Apratihatā means that religious system cannot be checked by any kind of material impediments. If we come to that platform, then ātmā—ātmā means the mind, the soul, also the body, intelligence—everything becomes fully satisfied. *So our this principle of teaching is based on Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Give him the book. Perhaps you have heard the name of Bhagavad-gītā , and some of you might have read it, Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra to groups of cousin-brothers. They were fighting to occupy the kingdom, and in that place Lord Kṛṣṇa, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, happened to be present as the chariot driver of one group, Arjuna. So Arjuna was trying to avoid the fighting because the other side, there were relatives, brothers. At that time he was lamenting his bodily relationship, "The other side is my brother, my grandfather, my nephews, my son-in-laws." So that was the platform of speaking Bhagavad-gītā . So first of all, Kṛṣṇa explained that "We are not this body." The first instruction was given: *The first instruction of spiritual life is to understand that, "I am not this body." The example is given, very simple thing, that I am present, although I remember that I had a small body lying down on the lap of my mother. I remember, when I was six months old, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and she was knitting. I still remember that. So everyone, we remember that we had a small body, and then another small body, then another small body. Those bodies are gone. I have got a different body now, but I remember that I had all these bodies. Therefore the conclusion should be for the sober man that "Although we have changed so many bodies, I, the person, the soul, am existing." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, when I shall give up this body, I shall accept another body. This is the beginning of understanding that, "I am not this body. I am living in this body just like I am not this coat, but I am living within the coat." *There is very vivid example in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we read, we can understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." When this realization is there that, "I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . the exact word used in the Vedic literature, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That stage has to be attained in human form of life. In the animal forms of life, this understanding that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," in the animal stage of life it is not possible to understand. But in the human form of life it is possible because human being is advanced in consciousness and knowledge, and if he is educated, he can understand. And if he actually understands, then his position becomes brahma*-bhūtaḥ , self-realized, prasannātmā . Immediately he becomes jubilant. There is no more any cause of moroseness. That is the symptom. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then there is no more hankering or lamentation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. At that stage, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, we can see everyone spirit soul. I don't see an American or a Swiss gentleman or a French gentleman or a cat or dog or tree, but I see the spirit soul. That, in that spiritual state, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , one can see that within this body there is the spirit soul, and he wants to work for benefit of the spirit soul, not for the temporary body. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just on the principles of this Bhagavad*-gītā , to understand his real identity, spiritual identity. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *One who is actually paṇḍita . . . paṇḍita means learned, and in spiritually learned, he sees that a very learned scholar, brahmin , and a dog, an elephant, a cow, or a low*-born man, creature—all on the same platform of spiritual life. So unless we come to that point, this so-called fighting and sectarianism will go on. So we want to teach people . . . not only sectarian people in India or the so-called Hindus or Muslims or Christians—everyone. Because everyone is spirit soul, and as soon as he understands that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then he becomes completely happy. Yenātmā samprasīdati. So people will not be happy, will not be satisfied, unless and until he comes to that spiritual understanding. So our humble method is on this principle that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." And the spirit soul is eternal, therefore he has got to come to the platform of eternal happiness, eternal life and full knowledge. That is the perfection of life. And any type of religion—it doesn't matter what it is—which teaches this philosophy of life, that is first*-class religious system. That is our conclusion. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (has conversation with someone in French) The president would like to talk to you for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give me little water. (more French conversation) I was formally received by the French Cardinal. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Danielou. Prabhupāda: Daniel. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) He says that the discussion you had with the Cardinal was very interesting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you come to that position of understanding that, "I am not this body," real spiritual knowledge does not begin. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Understanding the philosophy, Monsieur le President does not understand why we find it necessary to dress differently, though. *Prabhupāda: The different dress means as you have paid for it. Just like we can go to a tailor, he will supply you dress according to the payment you can make. Similarly, according to our karma , according to our work, we are given a type of body by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). According . . . because actually I do not possess this material body, but because I am in this material world, I am given a type of body by the material nature according to my work. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Speaking about clothes, Monsieur le President says that he has been to India, and he understands that one dresses like this in India. But why would the disciples dress in America or in Europe in this way? Is it necessary? Prabhupāda: No. It is not necessary. Dress you can have as you like. It doesn't matter, because dress is a dead thing. Real thing is that we want a living being who can understand. That is real the position. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Monsieur le President would like to know, if this movement gets bigger and bigger, won't it create problems in terms of working, the economy? Won't the economy suffer if our movement gets bigger and bigger? *Prabhupāda: No. Economy will not suffer, but economy will be simplified, because we have made some artificial economy. Actually, in the Bhagavad*-gītā we find the economic problem is solved by producing food grains. It is stated there, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "By eating food grains, both the animals and the men, they become stout and strong." That's a fact. (Guru-gaurāṅga translates) According to Bhagavad-gītā , economic problem can be solved anywhere. If you get . . . if you have some land, you produce your food grain and give it to the animals, especially to the cows, and she will give you in return milk. So if you get milk, fruits, vegetable and food grains, the whole economic problem is solved. *We have already started this example in New Virginia. A group of men, we have got about five hundred acres of land, and we keep cows, and they work to produce some vegetable and food grain. So they don't go outside for solving economic problems. At the present moment—now I am coming from India—in Bombay there is strike, railway strike. People are in so miserable condition to go to their work fifty miles, forty miles, hundred miles for earning their bread. This kind of economic situation has increased the problems of life. Rather, if we accept this economic problem solution, then anywhere, any part of the world you live, you don't require to go outside hundred miles, two hundred miles, five hundred miles. No. You produce your food there, keep animals, then everything is solved. Actually, the problem is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : One should take up these problems very seriously: birth, death, old age and disease. So . . . actually, as spirit soul we have no birth, no death. You will find in the Bhagavad, na jayate na mriyate vā kadācit : "The living entity does not take birth." Na jayate na mriyate vā : "Neither he dies." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "After the destruction of the body, the living entity does not annihilate." He . . . just like we have got already the example: my body, childhood body, is annihilated; still, I am existing. Similarly, I will exist. Now, the problem is how I shall exist. I shall exist eternally in full knowledge and in blissfulness. That is the idea. But so long we accept this material body, it is just the opposite. It is miserable, without any knowledge and without eternity. Philosophy should be to save our time from complicated economic problems. We should make our life simple and save time for spiritual cultivation, so that we can be relieved from repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating for president) Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) *(Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha*-yogi) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: . . . science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so . . . M. Roost: Oh, yeah, I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. M. Roost: But I . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We . . . our Bhagavad*-gītā , there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1): the yogīs , they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions: sagarbha-yogī, nigarbha-yogī. So what is your special subject matter of yogī ? *M. Roost: I try to make a yoga who is understanding from occident . . . I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma*-yoga . There are dynamics, and . . . I don't understand that we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen? M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different technique. One is praja, prajapa . . . x Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. Then they come to the heart; *then, ultimately, to the brahma*-randhra . This practice? *M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , but very, very tempered, tempere , moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma . It's more a question of conscious of awareness of the breathing and . . . Prabhupāda: Awareness of . . .? M. Roost: Of breathing. Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in . . . Prabhupāda: Prāṇāyāma . This is prāṇāyāma . M. Roost: And you must have the conscious of your breathing from mūlādhāra to ājñā , and ājñā through the lateral column to mūlādhāra . This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to . . . *Prabhupāda: That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā , by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life. M. Roost: Is according to . . .? *Prabhupāda: As the karmīs , they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmīs . Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs . So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogīs , they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi*-brahma , "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That . . . this bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or jñāna-yogī , it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti , this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti . So generally, the yogīs and the jñānīs , they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti , to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogaṁ . After advancing, if the yogī gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection. *M. Roost: Yes. I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight . . . eight*-path. *Prabhupāda: Aṣṭāṅga*-yoga , aṣṭāṅga . *M. Roost: Yes, aṣṭāṅga*-yoga . The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after to the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice for whom? M. Roost: Yes. Without intention. Satsvarūpa: The Lord, he said. M. Roost: Without personal intention. Prabhupāda: I'll speak. Satsvarūpa: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice . . . intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti . We are not intentionless, but purified intention. M. Roost: And what is your practice? Technically, I think. *Prabhupāda: Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam , to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : we hear from God personally. M. Roost: But with . . . through lecture? Through sound? Prabhupāda: Yes, through sound vibration. M. Roost: And repeat and . . . *Prabhupāda: Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta*-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So . . . *M. Roost: It's like japa, japa*-yoga , for example. *Prabhupāda: That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something, or I can know the Supreme, by my knowledge. "I am something, I am very important," our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogīs , they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different that, "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the Unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya , that "I am limited, I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the Unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first step, submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva . (aside) Call Nitāi. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first admission, that this way one can . . . (to Nitāi) Find out this verse. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . Nitāi: Jñāne prayāsam yugapāsya ? *Prabhupāda: It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā . Nitāi: In the *Bhāgavatam* ? *Prabhupāda: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . But . . . Nitāi: Oh, that's jñāna prayāsam . . . *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Nitāi: That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. Verse twenty (SB 10.14.20). *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can find out in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . In the Kṛṣṇa book we find out, when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered. I think, first part. Satsvarūpa: This is in English. What would it be? Nitāi: It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. About the fourteenth paragraph. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maha*-Visnu . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, not that. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes. Prabhupāda: Fourteenth paragraph, what is written? Satsvarūpa: Fourteenth is, "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa." Nitāi: Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph. *Prabhupāda: Jito 'pi. Jito 'py asi tais tri*-lokyām . Where we have explained in English. What is the . . .? Madhya-līlā ? *Nitāi: This is Madhya*-līlā , Eighth Chapter. Prabhupāda: You have got? Nitāi: Not here. It's in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? So why not . . . Nitāi: Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter. Nitāi: Not published yet. No. *Prabhupāda: What is this book, this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *Nitāi: That is Ādi*-līlā. Ādi-līlā , not Madhya-līlā . *Prabhupāda: Oh, not Madhya*-līlā . Nitāi: No. Third paragraph, it should begin. Satsvarūpa: The third paragraph of the chapter? *Nitāi: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad*-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor." *Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender, and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad*-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is . . . especially in the Western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma Purāṇa there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi , statement that, "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No, 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair point is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas , that is taken as Absolute Truth, and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. *So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, one ten*-thousandth portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna , like that, the vāyu . The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogī . *Yogī , first*-class yogī , is he who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I am talking also, thinking of Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon I stop talking, immediately my "Hare Kṛṣṇa" goes on. So remembrance is there, we don't forget Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) . . . thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So naturally, kṛṣṇa-samādhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Kṛṣṇa . . . and Kṛṣṇa recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogī ." *Nitāi: It is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice . . . this practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self*-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā : yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran ? *Prabhupāda: Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ . Yes, this is very important. Nitāi: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail." *Prabhupāda: So we are practicing this bhakti*-yoga and teaching others also. M. Roost: And when people is not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to . . . when his mind is not prepared to his life, what are you doing? How can you educate people to come vegetarian and . . .? Prabhupāda: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to . . . M. Roost: Yes, but European people. Occidental people is not to be . . . Prabhupāda: They are all occidental. M. Roost: Yes, yes, you, but majority of people. How do you . . .? Prabhupāda: Occidental means Eastern, er, Western? Yes. Nitāi: Western. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all Western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said: "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha , live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa . . . so generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra . But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. M. Roost: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat*-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible. M. Roost: I am according, but how to understand, how to make understand these things? *Prabhupāda: This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that, "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the svāmīs, yogīs and . . . don't mind, I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ (BG 6.17). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . If you are yogī , if you want siddhi , then you must eat and sleep and accept things— yukta. Yukta means "As it is required." Not more than that, not less than that. That is yukta . We don't say that you starve. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there, but married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on . . . in New York there is a yogī —I do not wish to name his . . . but in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not? Nitāi: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogī . Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? (long pause) M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way very strong, with a technique with a little different as yoga . For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux , like aikido, judo and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: What is that? M. Roost: It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid for death, and is a first problem how to transcend human life, how to transcend the . . . la mort . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: To transcend death. M. Roost: Death, yes. How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, combat , the combat . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Combat. Fighting. M. Roost: Fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple . . . Prabhupāda: (coughing) Water, little. M. Roost: . . . to make the problem very, very clear, and they fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: A sword. M. Roost: . . . and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so . . . we can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to . . . Prabhupāda: No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice? M. Roost: No, he don't kill, but he make like he will killed, but he don't killed. Of course not. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is another . . . M. Roost: But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way very interesting. But . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is automatically taught in bhakti*-yoga . Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. It is said: "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga . But if the master is such (chuckles) a rascal that if he asks the disciple that, "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi , like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama . M. Roost: Yes, and first is yama and niyama . *Prabhupāda: I know several yogīs , so*-called yogīs , in New York, they are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. Here, and in the America, there are so many women, they have no husband. So naturally they want sex life with others. And there are many such persons take advantage of this. Take fees also. (chuckles) Take fees. (pause) You read the Sixth Chapter, " Yoga Practice" portion? How to sit, how to look, how to behave? M. Roost: Yoga is not for people who is eating too much and sleeping too much. Not sleeping. Nitāi: It says: Prabhupāda: The first condition is eka , "alone." Now where is that facility? Actually, yogīs used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, not in the city, with so many people. Ekākī , this word is used. M. Roost: Eka . . .? Prabhupāda: Ekākī. Ekākī means alone. (to Nitāi) Eh? Go on. *Nitāi: Yata*-cittātmā nirāśīr aparigrahaḥ. Prabhupāda: Nirāśī means without any motive. And aparigraha , without accepting anything from anyone else. Aparigraha . Then? Nitāi: It says, śucau deśe pratiṣṭhāpya. Prabhupāda: Śucau deśe , a very sanctified place. Therefore Indian yogīs , they go to Haridwar, Himalaya. Eh? Nitāi: Sthiram āsanam . Prabhupāda: Sthiram āsanam. Āsanam , you must be fixed up. The yogīs will not leave their āsana. Sthira-āsanam. Then? *Nitāi: Nāty*-ucchritaṁ nāti-nīcaṁ. Prabhupāda: They must not very much raise; not very much lower. Then? *Nitāi: Cailājina*-kuśottaram. *Prabhupāda: Cailājina*-kuśottaram . That kuśa , the straw, and the deerskin, cailājina-kuśottaram. Then? Nitāi: Tatraikāgraṁ manaḥ kṛtvā. *Prabhupāda: Eka*-brahma. Meditation, concentrated, manaḥ kṛtvā . *Nitāi: Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ. *Nitāi: Upaviśyāsane yuñjyād yogam ātma*-viśuddhaye . Prabhupāda: Yes. Upaviśyāsane , sitting on the āsana , one should be purified. Then? *Nitāi: Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Samaṁ kāya-śiro. The kāya , this body, and the neck and the head in straight line. Then? Nitāi: Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ. Prabhupāda: Acalaṁ , without any movement. Then? Nitāi: Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ. Prabhupāda: And half eyes open, and seeing the point of the nose. Nitāi: Diśaś cānavalokayan. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Not to look any other way; simply . . . these are the practice. Who is going to do that? Ekākī , alone in a sanctified place, making the āsana , doing like that. Then? Go on. *Nitāi: Says, praśāntātmā vigata*-bhīr. *Prabhupāda: No fear. He is sitting alone in the Himalaya, no . . . not afraid of anything, vigata*-bhī. Then? *Nitāi: Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Brahmacāri . This is very . . . no sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrata. And they are taking fees, they are having sex with the disciple. That yogīs . Just see. This is going on. Brahmacāri-vrate ? *Nitāi: Manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ : "Always thinking of Me," viṣṇu-mūrti or kṛṣṇa-mūrti . Then? *Nitāi: Yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ : "Always thinking of Me." Then? *Nitāi: Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata*-mānasaḥ. Prabhupāda: "In this way, one who practices yoga . . ." *Nitāi: Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa*-paramām. Prabhupāda: ". . . then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa ." *Nitāi: Mat*-saṁsthām adhigacchati. *Prabhupāda: Mat*-saṁsthām . "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then? Nitāi: Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti. Prabhupāda: Ah, nāty aśnataḥ . It is not that you should not eat, abstain. No. Eat very little. So? Nitāi: Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat. *Nitāi: Na cāti*-svapna-śīlasya. Prabhupāda: "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then? *Nitāi: Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya . . . *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: Hmm. These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That's all. (end) *(Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha*-yogi) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: . . . science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so . . . M. Roost: Oh, yeah, I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. M. Roost: But I . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We . . . our Bhagavad*-gītā , there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1): the yogīs , they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions: sagarbha-yogī, nigarbha-yogī. So what is your special subject matter of yogī ? *M. Roost: I try to make a yoga who is understanding from occident . . . I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma*-yoga . There are dynamics, and . . . I don't understand that we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen? M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different technique. One is praja, prajapa . . . x Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. Then they come to the heart; *then, ultimately, to the brahma*-randhra . This practice? *M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , but very, very tempered, tempere , moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma . It's more a question of conscious of awareness of the breathing and . . . Prabhupāda: Awareness of . . .? M. Roost: Of breathing. Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in . . . Prabhupāda: Prāṇāyāma . This is prāṇāyāma . M. Roost: And you must have the conscious of your breathing from mūlādhāra to ājñā , and ājñā through the lateral column to mūlādhāra . This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to . . . *Prabhupāda: That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā , by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life. M. Roost: Is according to . . .? *Prabhupāda: As the karmīs , they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmīs . Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs . So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogīs , they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi*-brahma , "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That . . . this bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or jñāna-yogī , it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti , this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti . So generally, the yogīs and the jñānīs , they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti , to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogaṁ . After advancing, if the yogī gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection. *M. Roost: Yes. I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight . . . eight*-path. *Prabhupāda: Aṣṭāṅga*-yoga , aṣṭāṅga . *M. Roost: Yes, aṣṭāṅga*-yoga . The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after to the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice for whom? M. Roost: Yes. Without intention. Satsvarūpa: The Lord, he said. M. Roost: Without personal intention. Prabhupāda: I'll speak. Satsvarūpa: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice . . . intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti . We are not intentionless, but purified intention. M. Roost: And what is your practice? Technically, I think. *Prabhupāda: Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam , to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : we hear from God personally. M. Roost: But with . . . through lecture? Through sound? Prabhupāda: Yes, through sound vibration. M. Roost: And repeat and . . . *Prabhupāda: Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta*-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So . . . *M. Roost: It's like japa, japa*-yoga , for example. *Prabhupāda: That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something, or I can know the Supreme, by my knowledge. "I am something, I am very important," our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogīs , they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different that, "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the Unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya , that "I am limited, I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the Unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first step, submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva . (aside) Call Nitāi. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first admission, that this way one can . . . (to Nitāi) Find out this verse. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . Nitāi: Jñāne prayāsam yugapāsya ? *Prabhupāda: It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā . Nitāi: In the *Bhāgavatam* ? *Prabhupāda: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . But . . . Nitāi: Oh, that's jñāna prayāsam . . . *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Nitāi: That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. Verse twenty (SB 10.14.20). *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can find out in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . In the Kṛṣṇa book we find out, when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered. I think, first part. Satsvarūpa: This is in English. What would it be? Nitāi: It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. About the fourteenth paragraph. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maha*-Visnu . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, not that. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes. Prabhupāda: Fourteenth paragraph, what is written? Satsvarūpa: Fourteenth is, "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa." Nitāi: Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph. *Prabhupāda: Jito 'pi. Jito 'py asi tais tri*-lokyām . Where we have explained in English. What is the . . .? Madhya-līlā ? *Nitāi: This is Madhya*-līlā , Eighth Chapter. Prabhupāda: You have got? Nitāi: Not here. It's in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? So why not . . . Nitāi: Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter. Nitāi: Not published yet. No. *Prabhupāda: What is this book, this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *Nitāi: That is Ādi*-līlā. Ādi-līlā , not Madhya-līlā . *Prabhupāda: Oh, not Madhya*-līlā . Nitāi: No. Third paragraph, it should begin. Satsvarūpa: The third paragraph of the chapter? *Nitāi: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad*-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor." *Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender, and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad*-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is . . . especially in the Western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma Purāṇa there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi , statement that, "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No, 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair point is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas , that is taken as Absolute Truth, and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. *So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, one ten*-thousandth portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna , like that, the vāyu . The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogī . *Yogī , first*-class yogī , is he who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I am talking also, thinking of Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon I stop talking, immediately my "Hare Kṛṣṇa" goes on. So remembrance is there, we don't forget Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) . . . thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So naturally, kṛṣṇa-samādhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Kṛṣṇa . . . and Kṛṣṇa recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogī ." *Nitāi: It is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice . . . this practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self*-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā : yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran ? *Prabhupāda: Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ . Yes, this is very important. Nitāi: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail." *Prabhupāda: So we are practicing this bhakti*-yoga and teaching others also. M. Roost: And when people is not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to . . . when his mind is not prepared to his life, what are you doing? How can you educate people to come vegetarian and . . .? Prabhupāda: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to . . . M. Roost: Yes, but European people. Occidental people is not to be . . . Prabhupāda: They are all occidental. M. Roost: Yes, yes, you, but majority of people. How do you . . .? Prabhupāda: Occidental means Eastern, er, Western? Yes. Nitāi: Western. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all Western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said: "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha , live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa . . . so generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra . But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. M. Roost: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat*-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible. M. Roost: I am according, but how to understand, how to make understand these things? *Prabhupāda: This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that, "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the svāmīs, yogīs and . . . don't mind, I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ (BG 6.17). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . If you are yogī , if you want siddhi , then you must eat and sleep and accept things— yukta. Yukta means "As it is required." Not more than that, not less than that. That is yukta . We don't say that you starve. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there, but married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on . . . in New York there is a yogī —I do not wish to name his . . . but in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not? Nitāi: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogī . Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? (long pause) M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way very strong, with a technique with a little different as yoga . For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux , like aikido, judo and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: What is that? M. Roost: It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid for death, and is a first problem how to transcend human life, how to transcend the . . . la mort . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: To transcend death. M. Roost: Death, yes. How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, combat , the combat . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Combat. Fighting. M. Roost: Fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple . . . Prabhupāda: (coughing) Water, little. M. Roost: . . . to make the problem very, very clear, and they fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: A sword. M. Roost: . . . and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so . . . we can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to . . . Prabhupāda: No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice? M. Roost: No, he don't kill, but he make like he will killed, but he don't killed. Of course not. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is another . . . M. Roost: But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way very interesting. But . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is automatically taught in bhakti*-yoga . Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. It is said: "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga . But if the master is such (chuckles) a rascal that if he asks the disciple that, "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi , like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama . M. Roost: Yes, and first is yama and niyama . *Prabhupāda: I know several yogīs , so*-called yogīs , in New York, they are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. Here, and in the America, there are so many women, they have no husband. So naturally they want sex life with others. And there are many such persons take advantage of this. Take fees also. (chuckles) Take fees. (pause) You read the Sixth Chapter, " Yoga Practice" portion? How to sit, how to look, how to behave? M. Roost: Yoga is not for people who is eating too much and sleeping too much. Not sleeping. Nitāi: It says: Prabhupāda: The first condition is eka , "alone." Now where is that facility? Actually, yogīs used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, not in the city, with so many people. Ekākī , this word is used. M. Roost: Eka . . .? Prabhupāda: Ekākī. Ekākī means alone. (to Nitāi) Eh? Go on. *Nitāi: Yata*-cittātmā nirāśīr aparigrahaḥ. Prabhupāda: Nirāśī means without any motive. And aparigraha , without accepting anything from anyone else. Aparigraha . Then? Nitāi: It says, śucau deśe pratiṣṭhāpya. Prabhupāda: Śucau deśe , a very sanctified place. Therefore Indian yogīs , they go to Haridwar, Himalaya. Eh? Nitāi: Sthiram āsanam . Prabhupāda: Sthiram āsanam. Āsanam , you must be fixed up. The yogīs will not leave their āsana. Sthira-āsanam. Then? *Nitāi: Nāty*-ucchritaṁ nāti-nīcaṁ. Prabhupāda: They must not very much raise; not very much lower. Then? *Nitāi: Cailājina*-kuśottaram. *Prabhupāda: Cailājina*-kuśottaram . That kuśa , the straw, and the deerskin, cailājina-kuśottaram. Then? Nitāi: Tatraikāgraṁ manaḥ kṛtvā. *Prabhupāda: Eka*-brahma. Meditation, concentrated, manaḥ kṛtvā . *Nitāi: Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ. *Nitāi: Upaviśyāsane yuñjyād yogam ātma*-viśuddhaye . Prabhupāda: Yes. Upaviśyāsane , sitting on the āsana , one should be purified. Then? *Nitāi: Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Samaṁ kāya-śiro. The kāya , this body, and the neck and the head in straight line. Then? Nitāi: Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ. Prabhupāda: Acalaṁ , without any movement. Then? Nitāi: Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ. Prabhupāda: And half eyes open, and seeing the point of the nose. Nitāi: Diśaś cānavalokayan. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Not to look any other way; simply . . . these are the practice. Who is going to do that? Ekākī , alone in a sanctified place, making the āsana , doing like that. Then? Go on. *Nitāi: Says, praśāntātmā vigata*-bhīr. *Prabhupāda: No fear. He is sitting alone in the Himalaya, no . . . not afraid of anything, vigata*-bhī. Then? *Nitāi: Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Brahmacāri . This is very . . . no sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrata. And they are taking fees, they are having sex with the disciple. That yogīs . Just see. This is going on. Brahmacāri-vrate ? *Nitāi: Manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ : "Always thinking of Me," viṣṇu-mūrti or kṛṣṇa-mūrti . Then? *Nitāi: Yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ : "Always thinking of Me." Then? *Nitāi: Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata*-mānasaḥ. Prabhupāda: "In this way, one who practices yoga . . ." *Nitāi: Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa*-paramām. Prabhupāda: ". . . then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa ." *Nitāi: Mat*-saṁsthām adhigacchati. *Prabhupāda: Mat*-saṁsthām . "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then? Nitāi: Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti. Prabhupāda: Ah, nāty aśnataḥ . It is not that you should not eat, abstain. No. Eat very little. So? Nitāi: Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat. *Nitāi: Na cāti*-svapna-śīlasya. Prabhupāda: "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then? *Nitāi: Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya . . . *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: Hmm. These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That's all. (end) (Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne) Prabhupāda: . . . our books. *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad*-gītā I have not yet received. *Prabhupāda: Not yet seen Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He has seen, but he will get today. Prof. Regamay: And perhaps some questions I could put to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Regamay: But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions, because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without the guru . And, for instance, one of the first questions I have to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa , it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* . Prof. Regamay: Is that . . . practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen *Purāṇas* . Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika , and six are rājasika , and six are tāmasika . The sāttvika *Purāṇas* , they are Vaiṣṇava literature: *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, *Padma Purāṇa*. Prof. Regamay: The same . . . because I understood through . . . it is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in . . . by Rāmānuja or *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. Prof. Regamay: And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. (aside) Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tenth Chapter. Prabhupāda: So sarvasya . There are originally three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ : I am the origin of all the deities." Read it. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." *Prof. Regamay: Yes, that I know what it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one questions what I had to put that . . . and also . . . may I sit down on . . .? I would be much more . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give him another pad. *Prof. Regamay: Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , there are two questions that I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra , and the Kṛṣṇa, the Yādava Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world . . . that is also in the Bhāgavatam , that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the . . . and in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ (Bs. 5.48). You understand? Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur mahān , Mahā*-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation . . . there is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ , partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi. Yasya hi . . . yasya . . . what is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā ? Devotee: You have a copy downstairs. Yogeśvara: Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40)? *Prabhupāda: No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita*-kālam avalambya . Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. (break) Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha , second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I see, but . . . Prabhupāda: It is like that. Prof. Regamay: Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Prof. Regamay: It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam . Infallible. Anādi : He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). Still, He's just a fresh, young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. (aside) Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gītā , sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ . What is that? Nitāi: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages." *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have . . . because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya*-ist atheist. How could it be? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is . . . original Kapila is Devahūti . . . son of Devahūti, Kapila. *Prof. Regamay: It's what we can't find in Bhagavad*-gītā with . . . *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated Sāṅkhya philosophy. And this Sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not original Kapila. Prof. Regamay: Not a true Kapila. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Regamay: And Buddha? *Prabhupāda: Buddha is śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; *Muhammad, śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered, and he preaches the philosophy on behalf. That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra . There are different types of avatāras—guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra , like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , about avatāras . (aside) You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya , avatāras , innumerable avatāras . Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ . It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing, you cannot count. Or in the . . . what is that? Avatāra . Read, read that chapter. Nitāi: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras , or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend." *"The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation for the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world." *"The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā, or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons." *"The material nature acts in two capacities, as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa*-avatāra , Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas , or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Eleventh Canto, and the predominating Deity is Aniruddha . Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky, and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are." *"These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu." *"The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body, and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe, tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic . . . (break) . . . Viṣṇu is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it." *"The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the Ocean of Milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras ." *"Then He described the līlāvatāras . He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā , or pastime, avatāras , but some of them may be described by the Lord, for example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras , is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity, by the influence of the mode of material passion, is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā , Fifth Chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme . . . (break) . . . lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candlepower, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp." Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle, then from this candle another candle, another candle. There are many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still, the first one is called original. So far the candlepower is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle, like that. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta*-hetuḥ (Bs. 5.46). They are not derived from any other power. They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (Bs. 5.46). This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam . He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Prof. Regamay: Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha, who was teaching practically atheist doctrine and no . . . *Prabhupāda: That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, First Part. *Prof. Regamay: I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that he was . . . he didn't need to preach the worship of God because he was himself God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Regamay: But he doesn't say it in the text. *Prabhupāda: That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sammohāya , just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men were advocating, "There is no God." So he appeared before them . . . and they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the nonviolence. So therefore he is God himself, and he is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating. Prof. Regamay: Yes. Not teaching, but cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) So sometimes . . . just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says: "No, no, you don't require to go to.There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically he says: "You don't require to go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. (laughs) Prof. Regamay: Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from *Vedas* we understand that he is incarnation of God. *Prof. Regamay: But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā , but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains. *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā , because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña . Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are, who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas . . . because Vedas , animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantra s. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras . So for that purpose, animal sacrifice . . . just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals—frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put, and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so*-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal . . . ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ . He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence . . . just like Christians says that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that . . . I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere? So I said that he is powerful, he can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said: 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara , godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example: The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful; *we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is . . . but people, on slight imitation . . . is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said . . . and he preached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christian will maintain big, big, up*-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? *So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas . They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say: "In the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ : 'The animals are created for being killed.' " And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing . . . actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidence. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that, "I don't care for your Vedas ." Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction. Prof. Regamay: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas ." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas . So if he says: "No violence," then it is against Vedas . Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not—he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction"—therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas . Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. We . . . from philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know that he is God. He is God, incarnation of God. Prof. Regamay: I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra . That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen? Prof. Regamay: I have seen. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, viṣṇu*-mūrti . Prof. Regamay: And . . . but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Person? He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person. Prof. Regamay: Yes, person. But Brahman is not person. Brahman. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all right. Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman . Prabhupāda: That is śūnyavādī . We say also. Prof. Regamay: So they are . . . I think it's . . . I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that, for instance, what I find here . . . Prabhupāda: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances . . . just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto me. Obey me." But that is religion. Yes. So the religion is . . . one who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything . . . that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That (break). You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion. Prof. Regamay: But I noted that, for instance, our Christian approach to God . . . Prabhupāda: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God. *Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa*-brahman is the higher form of, than . . . *Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa*-brahman . . . just like . . . here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Geneva lake. Prabhupāda: Geneva lake, and few step after, French lake. Yogeśvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French. Prabhupāda: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say: "The cloudy sky." The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one. It is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say: "This is cloudy sky." Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. Prof. Regamay: Now, one question still. Why in Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already . . . there is no difference. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the . . . Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the *Upaniṣads* , they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. *So you cannot understand the goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya , the goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. *(break) . . . seeing very, very distant, ninety*-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see? But if you have got the capacity to run on . . . just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet . . . actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain. Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. Because personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The . . . just like, the same example: the sun-god, the sun planet and the sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. So sun*-god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand it. Therefore stop. (break) . . . light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said: "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower-class students, "One plus two equal to three. Two plus two . . ." that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three. No. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad . . . ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So *Vedas* and scriptures are there, differently, according to different condition. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people, you can understand. The first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling, "Thou shall not kill"? The Muhammad also said: "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also. Lord Buddha said: "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that. *Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so*-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . . Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all. Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal . . . Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything. *Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad*-gītā in English. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no *Mahābhārata* or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that. Prof. Regamay: But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words. Prabhupāda: Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil. Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case? *Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā . What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; *but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām . Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily. Prof. Regamay: But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām : those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves. Prof. Regamay: Awfully. Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed. Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: The Fascist and the non*-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names. Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically. *Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so*-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra , simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished. *Prof. Regamay: But they have still 4,000 years of Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill? Prof. Regamay: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four*-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing. "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead." Prof. Regamay: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him. *Prabhupāda: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, that's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do, He says: "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility, "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says: "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right, do it." But you'll have to get the result of it. Prof. Regamay: I thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: It was very, extremely useful. Just ends some problems. Yogeśvara: How many students do you have? (break) (end) (Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne) Prabhupāda: . . . our books. *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad*-gītā I have not yet received. *Prabhupāda: Not yet seen Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He has seen, but he will get today. Prof. Regamay: And perhaps some questions I could put to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Regamay: But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions, because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without the guru . And, for instance, one of the first questions I have to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa , it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* . Prof. Regamay: Is that . . . practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen *Purāṇas* . Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika , and six are rājasika , and six are tāmasika . The sāttvika *Purāṇas* , they are Vaiṣṇava literature: *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, *Padma Purāṇa*. Prof. Regamay: The same . . . because I understood through . . . it is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in . . . by Rāmānuja or *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. Prof. Regamay: And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. (aside) Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tenth Chapter. Prabhupāda: So sarvasya . There are originally three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ : I am the origin of all the deities." Read it. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." *Prof. Regamay: Yes, that I know what it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one questions what I had to put that . . . and also . . . may I sit down on . . .? I would be much more . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give him another pad. *Prof. Regamay: Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , there are two questions that I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra , and the Kṛṣṇa, the Yādava Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world . . . that is also in the Bhāgavatam , that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the . . . and in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ (Bs. 5.48). You understand? Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur mahān , Mahā*-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation . . . there is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ , partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi. Yasya hi . . . yasya . . . what is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā ? Devotee: You have a copy downstairs. Yogeśvara: Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40)? *Prabhupāda: No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita*-kālam avalambya . Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. (break) Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha , second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I see, but . . . Prabhupāda: It is like that. Prof. Regamay: Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Prof. Regamay: It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam . Infallible. Anādi : He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). Still, He's just a fresh, young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. (aside) Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gītā , sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ . What is that? Nitāi: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages." *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have . . . because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya*-ist atheist. How could it be? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is . . . original Kapila is Devahūti . . . son of Devahūti, Kapila. *Prof. Regamay: It's what we can't find in Bhagavad*-gītā with . . . *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated Sāṅkhya philosophy. And this Sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not original Kapila. Prof. Regamay: Not a true Kapila. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Regamay: And Buddha? *Prabhupāda: Buddha is śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; *Muhammad, śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered, and he preaches the philosophy on behalf. That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra . There are different types of avatāras—guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra , like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , about avatāras . (aside) You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya , avatāras , innumerable avatāras . Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ . It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing, you cannot count. Or in the . . . what is that? Avatāra . Read, read that chapter. Nitāi: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras , or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend." *"The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation for the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world." *"The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā, or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons." *"The material nature acts in two capacities, as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa*-avatāra , Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas , or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Eleventh Canto, and the predominating Deity is Aniruddha . Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky, and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are." *"These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu." *"The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body, and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe, tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic . . . (break) . . . Viṣṇu is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it." *"The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the Ocean of Milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras ." *"Then He described the līlāvatāras . He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā , or pastime, avatāras , but some of them may be described by the Lord, for example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras , is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity, by the influence of the mode of material passion, is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā , Fifth Chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme . . . (break) . . . lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candlepower, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp." Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle, then from this candle another candle, another candle. There are many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still, the first one is called original. So far the candlepower is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle, like that. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta*-hetuḥ (Bs. 5.46). They are not derived from any other power. They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (Bs. 5.46). This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam . He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Prof. Regamay: Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha, who was teaching practically atheist doctrine and no . . . *Prabhupāda: That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, First Part. *Prof. Regamay: I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that he was . . . he didn't need to preach the worship of God because he was himself God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Regamay: But he doesn't say it in the text. *Prabhupāda: That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sammohāya , just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men were advocating, "There is no God." So he appeared before them . . . and they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the nonviolence. So therefore he is God himself, and he is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating. Prof. Regamay: Yes. Not teaching, but cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) So sometimes . . . just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says: "No, no, you don't require to go to.There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically he says: "You don't require to go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. (laughs) Prof. Regamay: Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from *Vedas* we understand that he is incarnation of God. *Prof. Regamay: But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā , but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains. *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā , because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña . Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are, who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas . . . because Vedas , animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantra s. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras . So for that purpose, animal sacrifice . . . just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals—frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put, and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so*-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal . . . ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ . He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence . . . just like Christians says that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that . . . I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere? So I said that he is powerful, he can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said: 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara , godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example: The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful; *we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is . . . but people, on slight imitation . . . is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said . . . and he preached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christian will maintain big, big, up*-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? *So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas . They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say: "In the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ : 'The animals are created for being killed.' " And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing . . . actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidence. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that, "I don't care for your Vedas ." Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction. Prof. Regamay: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas ." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas . So if he says: "No violence," then it is against Vedas . Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not—he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction"—therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas . Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. We . . . from philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know that he is God. He is God, incarnation of God. Prof. Regamay: I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra . That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen? Prof. Regamay: I have seen. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, viṣṇu*-mūrti . Prof. Regamay: And . . . but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Person? He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person. Prof. Regamay: Yes, person. But Brahman is not person. Brahman. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all right. Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman . Prabhupāda: That is śūnyavādī . We say also. Prof. Regamay: So they are . . . I think it's . . . I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that, for instance, what I find here . . . Prabhupāda: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances . . . just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto me. Obey me." But that is religion. Yes. So the religion is . . . one who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything . . . that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That (break). You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion. Prof. Regamay: But I noted that, for instance, our Christian approach to God . . . Prabhupāda: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God. *Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa*-brahman is the higher form of, than . . . *Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa*-brahman . . . just like . . . here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Geneva lake. Prabhupāda: Geneva lake, and few step after, French lake. Yogeśvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French. Prabhupāda: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say: "The cloudy sky." The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one. It is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say: "This is cloudy sky." Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. Prof. Regamay: Now, one question still. Why in Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already . . . there is no difference. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the . . . Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the *Upaniṣads* , they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. *So you cannot understand the goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya , the goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. *(break) . . . seeing very, very distant, ninety*-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see? But if you have got the capacity to run on . . . just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet . . . actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain. Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. Because personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The . . . just like, the same example: the sun-god, the sun planet and the sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. So sun*-god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand it. Therefore stop. (break) . . . light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said: "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower-class students, "One plus two equal to three. Two plus two . . ." that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three. No. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad . . . ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So *Vedas* and scriptures are there, differently, according to different condition. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people, you can understand. The first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling, "Thou shall not kill"? The Muhammad also said: "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also. Lord Buddha said: "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that. *Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so*-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . . Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all. Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal . . . Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything. *Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad*-gītā in English. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no *Mahābhārata* or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that. Prof. Regamay: But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words. Prabhupāda: Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil. Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case? *Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā . What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; *but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām . Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily. Prof. Regamay: But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām : those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves. Prof. Regamay: Awfully. Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed. Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: The Fascist and the non*-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names. Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically. *Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so*-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra , simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished. *Prof. Regamay: But they have still 4,000 years of Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill? Prof. Regamay: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four*-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing. "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead." Prof. Regamay: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him. *Prabhupāda: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, that's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do, He says: "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility, "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says: "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right, do it." But you'll have to get the result of it. Prof. Regamay: I thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: It was very, extremely useful. Just ends some problems. Yogeśvara: How many students do you have? (break) (end) (With M. Douant, the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; Mlle. Peritier, a member of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; M. Morrel, the Dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Geneva; *M. Roche*-dieu, former honorary professor of history of religion of the University of Geneva; and a theology student.) Yogeśvara: (French) Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Centre in Geneva. Prabhupāda: One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Centre? Yogeśvara: Yes, Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant. Swiss man (1): The President. Prabhupāda: Why don't you give him a chair? Yogeśvara: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Little rheumatism. Prabhupāda: Give him chair. *Yogeśvara: Yes, he's . . . Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva. Monsieur Roche*-dieu, who is the . . . Doyen . . .? *M. Roche*-dieu: Former . . . former Honorary Professor of History of Religions in the faculty of theology, Protestant theology. *Yogeśvara: Mr. Roche*-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion. Prabhupāda: Ah. M. Morrel: (French) Yogeśvara: Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university. Yogeśvara: (French) Theology student: (French) Yogeśvara: Theology student. Our spiritual master, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you have shown our books? Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes of these books. Yogeśvara: (French—Yogeśvara showing books) *Prabhupāda: And Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . *M. Roche*-dieu: Whose are those pictures? Yogeśvara: Our students'. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations. *M. Roche*-dieu: Indian students? Yogeśvara: No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students. Prabhupāda: No. American students, under my direction. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of . . . Yogeśvara: (aside) You have that letter? Satsvarūpa: The letter, in English. Yogeśvara: (French, explains contents of letter regarding standing orders) *M. Roche*-dieu: Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliage who is in Chicago, department, religious department? Yogeśvara: What is his name? *M. Roche*-dieu: M. Eliage, Eliage. Yogeśvara: Professor Eliage? *M. Roche*-dieu: E-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman. Yogeśvara: Eliage, Professor Eliage . . . *M. Roche*-dieu: Eliade. Eliade. Yogeśvara: Eliade. Chicago University? Prabhupāda: No, I have never gone to Chicago. Yogeśvara: Is not Professor Dimock from Chicago? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Professor Dimock. Perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimock. He's head of which department? Satsvarūpa: East Asian. *Yogeśvara: The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad*-gītā . *M. Roche*-dieu: I have been in there, yes. Chicago University Department. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka . What is the symbolism, significance? Prabhupāda: It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides. (Yogeśvara translates Prabhupāda's answers through out. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The shaved head, he's asking the significance. Prabhupāda: This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking. Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially the brāhmins , they keep the shaven head. Brāhmins are the topmost class. (aside) What is the symptoms of brāhmin , find out. Nitāi: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmins work." *Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra , natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section like the belly, another section like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). (aside) Find out this verse. Prabhupāda: Page? Nitāi: 235. Yogeśvara: You have it? Nitāi: You want to read it? Yogeśvara: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates) Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and . . . all of them required . . . you cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmins are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā ? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain, because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā. (aside) So their qualification, brāhmin qualification, find out page. Nitāi: It's eight twelve. Yogeśvara: Eight twelve? Prabhupāda: 8 12. Yogeśvara: (reads verse 18.42 translation in French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?" Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only. Swiss man (1): But there are the outcastes, and they have . . . Yogeśvara: Do you mean the untouchables? Swiss man (1): Untouchables. *Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras . They are called pañcamas . These are four divisions: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class, but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas , or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas , the fifth*-class men, are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is . . . māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya . (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination." *Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction, because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere, and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Māṁ ca . . . (aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān . . . Nitāi: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction. Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) *Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu*-saṁhitā , for example, śūdras are not to be instructed. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra . A devotee is no longer śūdra . We are creating brāhmins . Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu*-saṁhitā , they are mlecchas, yavanas . But we are not keeping them mleccha and yavanas . Just like these European and American boys, they are accepting the Vedic regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas . They are brāhmins . So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmin , Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmin , he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana . He is brāhmin , or Vaiṣṇava. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists, because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system. Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science, he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism or Hinduism; *it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa*-karma . One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated. Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction. Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (aside) What was his first point? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian, whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmin . So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmin . How does one become brāhmin ? Prabhupāda: Brāhmin means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the Ten Commandments, how you can become Christian? Mlle. Peritier: (French) *Prabhupāda: First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the Ten Commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa*-karma : by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops, either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then they are equal. (aside) Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Read it. This is the ideal of equality. (aside) Find out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The supreme occupation, dharma , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *Prabhupāda: So our this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism . One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata . That is first*-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing. Prabhupāda: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too. Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; *then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find, God says: So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals . . . *M. Roche*-dieu: Living being. Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian, I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being, I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Life is a wholeness, a view, and there is no division between animals and man. Prabhupāda: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that, "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics—the same spirit soul. (aside) Read that. Nitāi: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma . So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that, "Only love the human being." There is no such thing. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God." Prabhupāda: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal . . . just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant—the animal may be ignorant—but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal? Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "How do we see ourselves, and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society?" *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (giving further translation) Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity . . . Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that, "These are human beings; they should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa, elephants; they are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hollow, the hole of your room, there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God, and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them? *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) He says: "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain . . . many species that do eat meat." Prabhupāda: Among the animals. But you are not animal. *M. Roche*-dieu: They do not eat anything else. Prabhupāda: But you are not animal. Animals among . . . the tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion? Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe . . . just like a man who has one hundred sheep, and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you should kill animal? *Theology student: At the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā , if I remember . . . Prabhupāda: And Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning, disobedience. How you can become Christian? *Theology student: Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught through Bhagavad*-gītā , in some way, is that he should not restrain and that . . . *Prabhupāda: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad*-gītā . When there is aggression you have the right to kill, but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful. Theology student: (French) Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants? Yogeśvara: Why do we make the distinction, then, between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants? Prabhupāda: We do not kill plants also. We take . . . of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say: "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. There must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says—find out this— patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Yogeśvara: (translating) . . . jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French) . . . *Prabhupāda: There is no jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Here Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me these things, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam ." There is no question of jīvasya jīvanam. Just hear. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, "Give Me this food." So we take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. We don't directly do anything. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them, and then we take it. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Kṛṣṇa's, not mine. Swiss man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you open this? *Yogeśvara: He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' " Prabhupāda: You must kill always. Swiss man (1): Yes. Because you object that . . . your chief, army chief, and your duty is to . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is that . . .? Where is that quotation? Are . . . you know . . . where is the quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says in the beginning of the *Gītā* , Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Why? "Because you are kṣatriya . There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for . . ." Just like my hands, kṣatriya . If there is attack, it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight, because you are hand. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "But then Kṛṣṇa says: 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification . . ." Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say: "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals." Swiss man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court, and if you say that, "He is not killed," will you be saved? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only . . .?" Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yogeśvara: He says: "How is that, that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad*-gītā teaches?" *Prabhupāda: Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become . . . (aside) Find out that verse, yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ (BG 7.28). This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful, you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. (break) Yogeśvara: (translating) Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate and . . . *Prabhupāda: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic . . . pillars of sinful activities . . . just like four pillars. One is this meat*-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously. Prabhupāda: But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things. Prabhupāda: Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man. Prabhupāda: The fellow man helping, what does he gain? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says,:"Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself." Prabhupāda: But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him? Swiss man (1): Certain circumstance. Yogeśvara: He says: "In certain circumstances." Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances. But if you do not know how to . . . suppose a man is diseased and you think . . . the doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that, "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping; that is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not . . . helping means, real helping is, that a man or animal, anyone . . . everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger . . . there's a danger in what he calls "Spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually . . . Prabhupāda: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he . . . that is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego that, "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that, "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good. Yogeśvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: That how can we say that to give people . . . that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress. Prabhupāda: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Probably not very much." He said: "But maybe we can do something." Prabhupāda: Then this is simply a false pride that, "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service that, "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Prabhupāda: So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk? Swiss man (1): (French) *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You want to translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons." Prabhupāda: But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also, they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If . . . the Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: That's interesting. That's an interesting point. He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free . . . Prabhupāda: Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not . . ."? They are all false things? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center, and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. (aside) Read it. Yogeśvara: (reads French translation) Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. (aside) Read the purport. Yogeśvara: (reads purport in French) Prabhupāda: So, so far I have studied . . . I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this—produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land . . ." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff? There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says all of these things, they are known. He says, they know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this . . . Prabhupāda: And therefore knowledge is required. Yogeśvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice. Prabhupāda: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. Swiss man (1): What is lacking is love. *Prabhupāda: That is not love. I love you, I will kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means . . . you see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, within, love. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others. *M. Roche*-dieu: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons. Yogeśvara: Here's that verse. Prabhupāda: Here is the verse. Yogeśvara: (reads French translation) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that. Prabhupāda: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego and this pride. What is that knowledge? Prabhupāda: So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me and in him? What do you think? Yogeśvara: (aside to Swiss man) Is that right? Did I translate it? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that . . . first of all, he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher, spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: But he says now . . . but there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept. *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) Was there something else that I missed? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying, but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motorcar, big motorcar, big machine, is moving, but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement—real mover is the spirit—you have to admit. Yogeśvara: Yes, they are willing to. Prabhupāda: Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately . . . so I am also īśvara , means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara , "the supreme controller." That is God. *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You can translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translates) Prabhupāda: So there are two īśvaras . I am also īśvara . So far my this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things—material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of . . . Swiss man (4): Geneva. Prabhupāda: . . . Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things: animate and inanimate. One section, animate; *another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras . We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. But supreme God, the supreme controller, is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit . . . we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge. (Guru*-gaurāṅga translates) Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content." Prabhupāda: Thank you. Swiss man (1): We do have other questions on the same level. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. Swiss man (1): It is external. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle: the another . . . ignite another candle, ignite another candle. Now, all these candles, so far light*-giving power, the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble, because the candlepower is the same. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "savior"? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being. Prabhupāda: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering. So savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead. Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru , the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru ? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Guru . . . guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference, because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message, he is neither guru , nor son, nothing of the sort. Swiss man (2) and others: (French) Yogeśvara: What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure . . . they're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or . . .? *Prabhupāda: We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . ." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is, either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru , Ninth Chapter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). Nitāi: 9.34 Prabhupāda: Translation. Nitāi: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus, does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process: "Engage your mind in Me." Then? So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of God—it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see: *"The first*-class yogī is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) "And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, your . . . our philosophy is that naturally these others things—charity, humanitarian works—they will all come naturally?" *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given . . . (break) . . . one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor*-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the USA also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious. Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them." Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "And you said them." *M. Roche*-dieu: I am very glad to have . . . to heard you saying these. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (aside) Bring prasāda . *M. Roche*-dieu: That's positive. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: Show him the pictures. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children. Theology student: Are you from Los Angeles? Yogeśvara: No, I'm from New York. Prabhupāda: This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here. Swiss man (1): (French conversation with devotees; prasādam is served) Yogeśvara: Right there. The young man behind you. (French) (break) Theology student: . . . how well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to . . . Yogeśvara: He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education. We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee. Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said: "Yes, but then I went and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties." Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that,"Some of the hippies," like that. Swiss man (1): Have you been in connection with Aurobindo? Yogeśvara: Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo? Prabhupāda: Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo? Swiss man (1): Because he's . . . well known in Europe. Prabhupāda: He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. Swiss man (1): Because he wrote on the Veda and . . . Prabhupāda: We never . . . why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted. Aurobindo was . . . Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them. Prabhupāda: And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (aside) Give this flower. Thank you. Swiss man (1): And God bless you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation—choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now did I say wrong that, "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?" Nitāi: You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right. It's great. Prabhupāda: I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? He could not know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said: "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager: "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism? Prabhupāda: That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity. Yogeśvara: He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think . . ." Prabhupāda: That's all. Yogeśvara: ". . . think we can do something." *Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said . . . he belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds that, "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big, become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that, "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor . . . now, those who have accepted voluntarily poverty*-ism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them? Yogeśvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood. Prabhupāda: This is karma . If you have bad karma , then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said: "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand. *Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Therefore I said that Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor*-feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone— paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant, but that does not mean you kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this? Yogeśvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane, and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food, they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating . . . Prabhupāda: Cow's flesh. When it was? Yogeśvara: This was about . . . now it is almost a month ago, one month ago. Prabhupāda: Where it was? Yogeśvara: In the Andes mountains? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: High in the mountains. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed. Nitāi: South America. Yogeśvara: Is it South . . . Nitāi: Andes, yes. Yogeśvara: I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed, and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles, "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No." *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Who's left a copy of Bhagavad-gītā here? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy. Yogeśvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One thing, though, on that report. I read that there were certain people . . . Prabhupāda: There was no vegetable? Yogeśvara: No, it was way up in the mountains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Icy, cold. Yogeśvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies—his fiancee or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies, they would eat them last. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister*-in-law, cousin. They said: "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that. Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also. Yogeśvara: Concentration camps. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Really? Phew. What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view? Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break the regulative principles—if it is necessary? Prabhupāda: If it is necessary. Yogeśvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years? Nitāi: Saubhari? Viśvāmitra. Prabhupāda: Vālmīki. Yogeśvara: No. Nitāi: Viśvāmitra? Prabhupāda: Viśvāmitra. Yogeśvara: He also had to eat dog, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: There's a story about that. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is said. How they exist in that open, and there was snow? For eighteen . . . eighteen days? Yogeśvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on the blankets and their coats. But there was no . . . they could not go outside. There was no food. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They had . . . at first they had little chocolate, and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves, "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that, "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it, and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did. Yogeśvara: They made some . . . afterwards they had to . . . there was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that, "We must eat this flesh to stay alive, but it's not so wrong, since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise, dead body's flesh is as good as anything else, because it is matter. (break) Yogeśvara: There are other meetings tonight? Who is coming? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is one more meeting today. Prabhupāda: Where? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is the European Centre for Nuclear Research. Prabhupāda: What can I do there? (laughter) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They're coming. This man has worked in India . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga . . . (SB 7.6.1). Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā. The same thing. Nitāi: Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat? Prabhupāda: Little fruit and a little this. (end) (With M. Douant, the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; Mlle. Peritier, a member of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; M. Morrel, the Dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Geneva; *M. Roche*-dieu, former honorary professor of history of religion of the University of Geneva; and a theology student.) Yogeśvara: (French) Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Centre in Geneva. Prabhupāda: One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Centre? Yogeśvara: Yes, Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant. Swiss man (1): The President. Prabhupāda: Why don't you give him a chair? Yogeśvara: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Little rheumatism. Prabhupāda: Give him chair. *Yogeśvara: Yes, he's . . . Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva. Monsieur Roche*-dieu, who is the . . . Doyen . . .? *M. Roche*-dieu: Former . . . former Honorary Professor of History of Religions in the faculty of theology, Protestant theology. *Yogeśvara: Mr. Roche*-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion. Prabhupāda: Ah. M. Morrel: (French) Yogeśvara: Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university. Yogeśvara: (French) Theology student: (French) Yogeśvara: Theology student. Our spiritual master, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you have shown our books? Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes of these books. Yogeśvara: (French—Yogeśvara showing books) *Prabhupāda: And Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . *M. Roche*-dieu: Whose are those pictures? Yogeśvara: Our students'. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations. *M. Roche*-dieu: Indian students? Yogeśvara: No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students. Prabhupāda: No. American students, under my direction. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of . . . Yogeśvara: (aside) You have that letter? Satsvarūpa: The letter, in English. Yogeśvara: (French, explains contents of letter regarding standing orders) *M. Roche*-dieu: Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliage who is in Chicago, department, religious department? Yogeśvara: What is his name? *M. Roche*-dieu: M. Eliage, Eliage. Yogeśvara: Professor Eliage? *M. Roche*-dieu: E-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman. Yogeśvara: Eliage, Professor Eliage . . . *M. Roche*-dieu: Eliade. Eliade. Yogeśvara: Eliade. Chicago University? Prabhupāda: No, I have never gone to Chicago. Yogeśvara: Is not Professor Dimock from Chicago? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Professor Dimock. Perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimock. He's head of which department? Satsvarūpa: East Asian. *Yogeśvara: The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad*-gītā . *M. Roche*-dieu: I have been in there, yes. Chicago University Department. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka . What is the symbolism, significance? Prabhupāda: It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides. (Yogeśvara translates Prabhupāda's answers through out. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The shaved head, he's asking the significance. Prabhupāda: This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking. Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially the brāhmins , they keep the shaven head. Brāhmins are the topmost class. (aside) What is the symptoms of brāhmin , find out. Nitāi: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmins work." *Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra , natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section like the belly, another section like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). (aside) Find out this verse. Prabhupāda: Page? Nitāi: 235. Yogeśvara: You have it? Nitāi: You want to read it? Yogeśvara: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates) Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and . . . all of them required . . . you cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmins are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā ? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain, because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā. (aside) So their qualification, brāhmin qualification, find out page. Nitāi: It's eight twelve. Yogeśvara: Eight twelve? Prabhupāda: 8 12. Yogeśvara: (reads verse 18.42 translation in French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?" Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only. Swiss man (1): But there are the outcastes, and they have . . . Yogeśvara: Do you mean the untouchables? Swiss man (1): Untouchables. *Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras . They are called pañcamas . These are four divisions: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class, but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas , or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas , the fifth*-class men, are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is . . . māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya . (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination." *Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction, because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere, and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Māṁ ca . . . (aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān . . . Nitāi: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction. Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) *Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu*-saṁhitā , for example, śūdras are not to be instructed. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra . A devotee is no longer śūdra . We are creating brāhmins . Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu*-saṁhitā , they are mlecchas, yavanas . But we are not keeping them mleccha and yavanas . Just like these European and American boys, they are accepting the Vedic regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas . They are brāhmins . So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmin , Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmin , he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana . He is brāhmin , or Vaiṣṇava. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists, because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system. Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science, he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism or Hinduism; *it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa*-karma . One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated. Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction. Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (aside) What was his first point? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian, whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmin . So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmin . How does one become brāhmin ? Prabhupāda: Brāhmin means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the Ten Commandments, how you can become Christian? Mlle. Peritier: (French) *Prabhupāda: First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the Ten Commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa*-karma : by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops, either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then they are equal. (aside) Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Read it. This is the ideal of equality. (aside) Find out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The supreme occupation, dharma , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *Prabhupāda: So our this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism . One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata . That is first*-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing. Prabhupāda: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too. Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; *then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find, God says: So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals . . . *M. Roche*-dieu: Living being. Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian, I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being, I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Life is a wholeness, a view, and there is no division between animals and man. Prabhupāda: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that, "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics—the same spirit soul. (aside) Read that. Nitāi: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma . So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that, "Only love the human being." There is no such thing. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God." Prabhupāda: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal . . . just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant—the animal may be ignorant—but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal? Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "How do we see ourselves, and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society?" *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (giving further translation) Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity . . . Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that, "These are human beings; they should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa, elephants; they are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hollow, the hole of your room, there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God, and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them? *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) He says: "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain . . . many species that do eat meat." Prabhupāda: Among the animals. But you are not animal. *M. Roche*-dieu: They do not eat anything else. Prabhupāda: But you are not animal. Animals among . . . the tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion? Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe . . . just like a man who has one hundred sheep, and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you should kill animal? *Theology student: At the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā , if I remember . . . Prabhupāda: And Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning, disobedience. How you can become Christian? *Theology student: Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught through Bhagavad*-gītā , in some way, is that he should not restrain and that . . . *Prabhupāda: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad*-gītā . When there is aggression you have the right to kill, but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful. Theology student: (French) Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants? Yogeśvara: Why do we make the distinction, then, between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants? Prabhupāda: We do not kill plants also. We take . . . of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say: "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. There must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says—find out this— patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Yogeśvara: (translating) . . . jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French) . . . *Prabhupāda: There is no jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Here Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me these things, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam ." There is no question of jīvasya jīvanam. Just hear. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, "Give Me this food." So we take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. We don't directly do anything. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them, and then we take it. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Kṛṣṇa's, not mine. Swiss man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you open this? *Yogeśvara: He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' " Prabhupāda: You must kill always. Swiss man (1): Yes. Because you object that . . . your chief, army chief, and your duty is to . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is that . . .? Where is that quotation? Are . . . you know . . . where is the quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says in the beginning of the *Gītā* , Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Why? "Because you are kṣatriya . There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for . . ." Just like my hands, kṣatriya . If there is attack, it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight, because you are hand. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "But then Kṛṣṇa says: 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification . . ." Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say: "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals." Swiss man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court, and if you say that, "He is not killed," will you be saved? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only . . .?" Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yogeśvara: He says: "How is that, that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad*-gītā teaches?" *Prabhupāda: Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become . . . (aside) Find out that verse, yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ (BG 7.28). This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful, you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. (break) Yogeśvara: (translating) Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate and . . . *Prabhupāda: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic . . . pillars of sinful activities . . . just like four pillars. One is this meat*-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously. Prabhupāda: But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things. Prabhupāda: Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man. Prabhupāda: The fellow man helping, what does he gain? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says,:"Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself." Prabhupāda: But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him? Swiss man (1): Certain circumstance. Yogeśvara: He says: "In certain circumstances." Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances. But if you do not know how to . . . suppose a man is diseased and you think . . . the doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that, "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping; that is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not . . . helping means, real helping is, that a man or animal, anyone . . . everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger . . . there's a danger in what he calls "Spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually . . . Prabhupāda: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he . . . that is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego that, "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that, "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good. Yogeśvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: That how can we say that to give people . . . that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress. Prabhupāda: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Probably not very much." He said: "But maybe we can do something." Prabhupāda: Then this is simply a false pride that, "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service that, "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Prabhupāda: So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk? Swiss man (1): (French) *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You want to translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons." Prabhupāda: But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also, they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If . . . the Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: That's interesting. That's an interesting point. He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free . . . Prabhupāda: Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not . . ."? They are all false things? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center, and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. (aside) Read it. Yogeśvara: (reads French translation) Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. (aside) Read the purport. Yogeśvara: (reads purport in French) Prabhupāda: So, so far I have studied . . . I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this—produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land . . ." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff? There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says all of these things, they are known. He says, they know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this . . . Prabhupāda: And therefore knowledge is required. Yogeśvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice. Prabhupāda: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. Swiss man (1): What is lacking is love. *Prabhupāda: That is not love. I love you, I will kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means . . . you see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, within, love. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others. *M. Roche*-dieu: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons. Yogeśvara: Here's that verse. Prabhupāda: Here is the verse. Yogeśvara: (reads French translation) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that. Prabhupāda: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego and this pride. What is that knowledge? Prabhupāda: So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me and in him? What do you think? Yogeśvara: (aside to Swiss man) Is that right? Did I translate it? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that . . . first of all, he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher, spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: But he says now . . . but there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept. *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) Was there something else that I missed? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying, but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motorcar, big motorcar, big machine, is moving, but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement—real mover is the spirit—you have to admit. Yogeśvara: Yes, they are willing to. Prabhupāda: Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately . . . so I am also īśvara , means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara , "the supreme controller." That is God. *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You can translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translates) Prabhupāda: So there are two īśvaras . I am also īśvara . So far my this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things—material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of . . . Swiss man (4): Geneva. Prabhupāda: . . . Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things: animate and inanimate. One section, animate; *another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras . We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. But supreme God, the supreme controller, is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit . . . we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge. (Guru*-gaurāṅga translates) Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content." Prabhupāda: Thank you. Swiss man (1): We do have other questions on the same level. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. Swiss man (1): It is external. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle: the another . . . ignite another candle, ignite another candle. Now, all these candles, so far light*-giving power, the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble, because the candlepower is the same. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "savior"? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being. Prabhupāda: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering. So savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead. Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru , the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru ? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Guru . . . guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference, because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message, he is neither guru , nor son, nothing of the sort. Swiss man (2) and others: (French) Yogeśvara: What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure . . . they're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or . . .? *Prabhupāda: We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . ." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is, either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru , Ninth Chapter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). Nitāi: 9.34 Prabhupāda: Translation. Nitāi: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus, does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process: "Engage your mind in Me." Then? So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of God—it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see: *"The first*-class yogī is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) "And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, your . . . our philosophy is that naturally these others things—charity, humanitarian works—they will all come naturally?" *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given . . . (break) . . . one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor*-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the USA also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious. Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them." Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "And you said them." *M. Roche*-dieu: I am very glad to have . . . to heard you saying these. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (aside) Bring prasāda . *M. Roche*-dieu: That's positive. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: Show him the pictures. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children. Theology student: Are you from Los Angeles? Yogeśvara: No, I'm from New York. Prabhupāda: This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here. Swiss man (1): (French conversation with devotees; prasādam is served) Yogeśvara: Right there. The young man behind you. (French) (break) Theology student: . . . how well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to . . . Yogeśvara: He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education. We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee. Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said: "Yes, but then I went and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties." Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that,"Some of the hippies," like that. Swiss man (1): Have you been in connection with Aurobindo? Yogeśvara: Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo? Prabhupāda: Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo? Swiss man (1): Because he's . . . well known in Europe. Prabhupāda: He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. Swiss man (1): Because he wrote on the Veda and . . . Prabhupāda: We never . . . why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted. Aurobindo was . . . Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them. Prabhupāda: And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (aside) Give this flower. Thank you. Swiss man (1): And God bless you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation—choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now did I say wrong that, "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?" Nitāi: You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right. It's great. Prabhupāda: I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? He could not know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said: "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager: "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism? Prabhupāda: That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity. Yogeśvara: He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think . . ." Prabhupāda: That's all. Yogeśvara: ". . . think we can do something." *Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said . . . he belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds that, "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big, become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that, "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor . . . now, those who have accepted voluntarily poverty*-ism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them? Yogeśvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood. Prabhupāda: This is karma . If you have bad karma , then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said: "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand. *Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Therefore I said that Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor*-feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone— paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant, but that does not mean you kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this? Yogeśvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane, and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food, they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating . . . Prabhupāda: Cow's flesh. When it was? Yogeśvara: This was about . . . now it is almost a month ago, one month ago. Prabhupāda: Where it was? Yogeśvara: In the Andes mountains? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: High in the mountains. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed. Nitāi: South America. Yogeśvara: Is it South . . . Nitāi: Andes, yes. Yogeśvara: I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed, and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles, "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No." *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Who's left a copy of Bhagavad-gītā here? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy. Yogeśvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One thing, though, on that report. I read that there were certain people . . . Prabhupāda: There was no vegetable? Yogeśvara: No, it was way up in the mountains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Icy, cold. Yogeśvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies—his fiancee or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies, they would eat them last. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister*-in-law, cousin. They said: "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that. Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also. Yogeśvara: Concentration camps. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Really? Phew. What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view? Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break the regulative principles—if it is necessary? Prabhupāda: If it is necessary. Yogeśvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years? Nitāi: Saubhari? Viśvāmitra. Prabhupāda: Vālmīki. Yogeśvara: No. Nitāi: Viśvāmitra? Prabhupāda: Viśvāmitra. Yogeśvara: He also had to eat dog, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: There's a story about that. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is said. How they exist in that open, and there was snow? For eighteen . . . eighteen days? Yogeśvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on the blankets and their coats. But there was no . . . they could not go outside. There was no food. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They had . . . at first they had little chocolate, and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves, "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that, "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it, and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did. Yogeśvara: They made some . . . afterwards they had to . . . there was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that, "We must eat this flesh to stay alive, but it's not so wrong, since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise, dead body's flesh is as good as anything else, because it is matter. (break) Yogeśvara: There are other meetings tonight? Who is coming? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is one more meeting today. Prabhupāda: Where? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is the European Centre for Nuclear Research. Prabhupāda: What can I do there? (laughter) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They're coming. This man has worked in India . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga . . . (SB 7.6.1). Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā. The same thing. Nitāi: Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat? Prabhupāda: Little fruit and a little this. (end) (Conversation with Christian Priest, Mr. Chenique) *Jyotirmayī: Mr. Chenique has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad*-gītā , and now you see he is wearing a dhotī , he's coming to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's coming for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gītā . But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Brahman, Paramātmā . . . he understands English? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then Personality of Godhead. (Jyotirmayī translates into French) Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are. Jyotirmayī: Yeah, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was . . . Prabhupāda: In India, where did you stay? Mr. Chenique: In Poona. Prabhupāda: Poona, oh. How long you were there? *Mr. Chenique: Twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: Half of my time, yes. I was in India half my life. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally. Mr. Chenique: Did you come to Poona? Prabhupāda: Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think. Mr. Chenique: Yes, not far. Prabhupāda: Yes. Poona is nice place. Climate is nice. Mr. Chenique: For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many good scholars. Mr. Chenique: Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich. Prabhupāda: Yes. Maharashtrian, they are educated, advanced. Mr. Chenique: How do you find your disciples here in Europe? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Mr. Chenique: I shouldn't ask personal question. Prabhupāda: No, it is not personal. It is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone. Mr. Chenique: It does, it does. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only here in Europe—in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center. Australia. Mr. Chenique: In Bombay also you have got? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bombay just now we have got a very big place. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Prabhupāda: And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasādam . We are at Juhu quarter. Mr. Chenique: At Juhu. Prabhupāda: (someone enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here. Bhagavān: You have been to India? You've worked there. Mr. Chenique: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, he was twenty*-five years there. *Mr. Chenique: Twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: He is Indian. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: And I was . . . I mean I am still a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but not of the old tradition of Maharashtra, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of Pandharpur, Viṭhobā. Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, that Viṭhṭhala, Viṭhṭhala. Viṭhṭhala, there is. So they are Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: And it's the main . . . (indistinct) . . . center of Maharashtra. Prabhupāda: Yes, Pandharpur. *Mr. Chenique: When I went to India twenty*-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage. Prabhupāda: What was your subject matter studying? Mr. Chenique: I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brāhmin pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharashtra, Orissa, Jnaneshvara. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma, Tukārāma. Mr. Chenique: Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Chenique: I have proceeded Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma is in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mr. Chenique: That's right. Prabhupāda: He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga , that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya. Mr. Chenique: It's a great bhakti tradition. Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . (aside) Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti . Nitāi: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." *Prabhupāda: So in another place also it is said, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.68). "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, then always think of Me," man-manā , "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles. It is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So by uttering the word Kṛṣṇa , immediately you think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma . . . what is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, everyone can see how these young boys and girls—they are not very old; *they have taken to it quite young—but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got—Kṛṣṇa dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life—no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Kṛṣṇa says that, "Surely you come back to Me." What is the second line? Man-manā . . . *Nitāi: Mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat*-parāyaṇaḥ. *Prabhupāda: In another place it is said asaṁśaya . That is in the Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn—they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. *The first*-class yogīs . Actually, no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa, tongue, and hear with the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir (SB 10.14.3): by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending . . . "We" means Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says that, "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God. Why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name? French man: Jehovah. Prabhupāda: Jehovah? French man: He has no name in Christianity. Prabhupāda: Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa; what is the harm? Every religion believes—not believes; it is fact—that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion? Bhagavān: Buddhist religion? Mr. Chenique: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament. Prabhupāda: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible. Mr. Chenique: You have got many idea of God. Prabhupāda: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God. Mr. Chenique: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Chenique: And this experience is different of many people. Prabhupāda: But you experience . . . because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect. Mr. Chenique: But who is to say . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . Mr. Chenique: . . . what is a perfect experience? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Even we are imperfect, with our . . . as far as our knowledge goes, now generally, just like the Christians, they say: "God is great." Is it not? Mr. Chenique: That is rather the Muslims. Prabhupāda: Huh? That is Muslim. Mr. Chenique: Allah. Prabhupāda: Allahu akbar . So what is the conception of God of the Christian? Mr. Chenique: As you said, it's impersonal, transpersonal, that what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Relationship means that He must be a person. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Otherwise, how you can . . . Mr. Chenique: It is beyond a person. Prabhupāda: Beyond the person . . . just like we have got experience: when you call "relation," then "relation" means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation. Mr. Chenique: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So relation means two person—one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but what we don't . . . we don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself. Prabhupāda: What is that, relation itself? Explain. Mr. Chenique: It's when you are two together, when the master . . . Prabhupāda: Then two together means person. As soon as you . . . Mr. Chenique: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation. Prabhupāda: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two person. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no? Mr. Chenique: You see, I have got relation . . . Prabhupāda: We are two person. Mr. Chenique: . . . with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship. Prabhupāda: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation, as we have got relation? Mr. Chenique: Certainly. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise. Mr. Chenique: Yes, but I don't make of God the object of relationship. Prabhupāda: Then what . . . Mr. Chenique: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship. Bhagavān: A relation with who? Mr. Chenique: Relation with anything. Bhagavān: That is God? Mr. Chenique: That is God. Prabhupāda: What is that? Bhagavān: He thinks relationship with anything means God. Prabhupāda: Anything? Bhagavān: Yes, anything. Mr. Chenique: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship with you, so then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter . . . Prabhupāda: But in your Bible you say: "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible, "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father. Mr. Chenique: But . . . Prabhupāda: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son. French man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the Christianity of this country. There are two main conceptions—the oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of any particular Church. We are just trying to understand the word relation . French Man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship . So in the Bible it is clearly said: "O Father," so the relation is father and son. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no? Mr. Chenique: You have to . . . I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma, you know. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced, but what is my own experience. Prabhupāda: No, no. God's relationship should be universal, not that . . . it may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is . . . Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion; that is a different thing. Mr. Chenique: But we have to have the opinion which we experience. Prabhupāda: What is that experience? You ask: "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the *Vedas* also it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānām , the chief, the Supreme. And in the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka , that one; God is one. Bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān : He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the *Vedas* and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way—as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are relative with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife. Mr. Chenique: I don't think so. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But . . . Mr. Chenique: Not opinion; experience. Prabhupāda: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience? Mr. Chenique: That God is beyond all our experience. Prabhupāda: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. (laughs) If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: Personally, of course, but . . . Prabhupāda: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: But if you know what you can't explain . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know. Mr. Chenique: You don't think an illusion . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship. Prabhupāda: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing. That is knowledge. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but that knowledge is very . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach, because you do not know, it is not within your experience. Mr. Chenique: That's why I don't preach. Prabhupāda: That's all right, then . . . (laughs) (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: So you cannot explain. That is all right. Mr. Chenique: That means I have the experience . . . Prabhupāda: But . . . Mr. Chenique: . . . that my experience is limited . . . Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Mr. Chenique: . . . and God is unlimited. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That I admit. Mr. Chenique: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Just like you know . . . Mr. Chenique: And nobody can. Prabhupāda: . . . you do not know me; you have no experience about me. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: But if I say: "I am like this," you will get experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Then why no? Mr. Chenique: If I live with you for some time . . . Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swāmījī might have one thousand dollar," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say: "No, I have got one million dollar," then you get the experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why no? Mr. Chenique: I will get the experience of you when we are living together. Prabhupāda: That means you cannot talk with God. Mr. Chenique: Of course not. Prabhupāda: That's it. But if anyone can talk? Mr. Chenique: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mr. Chenique: But my experience is that you cannot . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. So direct experience, taking experience, "I am like this." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, Find out this verse. Nitāi: "I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Prabhupāda: Just see. This experience. *Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: God. Mr. Chenique: I mean, you need to have faith for that. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? *Bhagavān: You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Why faith? God is God. Why faith? Mr. Chenique: Because, you know, I have been living in . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. You have no experience, you have said. You have no experience. Mr. Chenique: No, I have not said. You said I did. Prabhupāda: No, you said that God is beyond your experience. You said. Mr. Chenique: A real svāmī listen first if he wants to profit. Prabhupāda: First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience. Mr. Chenique: That's right. That is my experience. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: You say God is beyond your experience, you say. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience. Because I found out that all my experience does not mean God. Prabhupāda: But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about? Mr. Chenique: No, you don't . . . you see . . . Prabhupāda: Then it is a bit difficult. Mr. Chenique: I have always told that the duty of the svāmī is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand. Prabhupāda: No, no, you said . . . first of all let us . . . why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God. Mr. Chenique: No, I never said that. Prabhupāda: Then tell me your experience. That I want to know. Mr. Chenique: That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta , and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience. Prabhupāda: That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you? Mr. Chenique: That the image of God, as do you call it Kṛṣṇa or Rāma or Nṛsiṁha or any of the avatāra . . . and you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar, there was a svāmī who called himself an avatāra , and . . . Prabhupāda: That anyone can say. I can say third avatāra , he can say fourth avatāra . Mr. Chenique: So if anyone can say . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say: "I am avatāra ." Mr. Chenique: Exactly. Prabhupāda: So . . . Mr. Chenique: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatāra ? Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatāra . We have got documents who is avatāra . Mr. Chenique: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . He is the origin. That it is stated here, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You know Sanskrit? Then what is the meaning of ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ ? "I am the source of all avatāra ." Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but who has written that? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mr. Chenique: Who has written that? Śrīla Vyāsa. Prabhupāda: Anywhere he has written. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has written. Kṛṣṇa has spoken, Vyāsadeva has written, and it is accepted. Mr. Chenique: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress. Mr. Chenique: Ah, you have to go beyond. Prabhupāda: As soon as you . . . just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother, and you believe that, "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect. That's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but you know . . . Prabhupāda: If you say: "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know. Mr. Chenique: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say . . . *Mr. Chenique: . . . that "I am an avatāra " or "I am Guru Mahārāj*-ji" or "I am . . ." so to say, "Meher Baba" or "Satya Sai Baba," so many bābās exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really bābā ? They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatāra , and they have many disciples . . . Prabhupāda: But we don't believe them. Mr. Chenique: No, but they have many disciples. Prabhupāda: Many disciples, that is another thing. Mr. Chenique: Millions. Prabhupāda: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody . . . so many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity. Mr. Chenique: And if I had said that . . . *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : Kṛṣṇa does not say that, "Millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it. Mr. Chenique: That's right. Prabhupāda: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is paramparā . Just like in India—you have been in India—there are ācāryas : Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya. If the ācārya accept, then you accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Rāmānujācārya, high quality devotee; Madhvācārya, high quality devotee; *Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says—yes. So Śaṅkarācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Rāmānujācārya says: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvācārya says: "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā, nāsāv munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A muni , a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām : it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Big personalities, ācāryas —that is the process. Ācāryopāsanam . What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Ācāryopāsanam : we have to understand through the ācāryas . That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa in the Tenth Chapter. (aside) Find out, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. Read it. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that translation? *Nitāi: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, and He is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, Asita, Nārada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says: "I am avatāra ," "I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the ācāryas , therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. As soon mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. So Arjuna says that paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12): "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is our point. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and . . . Kṛṣṇa comes, and He is accepted by all the great ācāryas . Then our business is perfect. (pause) So give them prasāda . Bhagavān: Yes. I have prasādam in my office. Prabhupāda: Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). *Bhagavān: Have you seen our Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: He saw our all books. He is a scholar. Devotee: This is a translation of Bhāgavata Purāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Devotee: In sixty volumes we will translate this. *Bhagavān: We have Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Here it is. *Devotee: And the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, all volumes. Bhagavān: Would you like to see some of the pictures? Mr. Chenique: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanātana Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees. Bhagavān: (as prasādam is brought in) This is one of our other specialties. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). *Nitāi: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . It's a description of the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. That's in two volumes. Mr. Chenique: It's a tremendous work. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world. Nitāi: This is *Nectar of Devotion* , by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the *Purāṇas* , and he supports devotional service. Mr. Chenique: This is what you use for your devotional service? Nitāi: They're a model. Bhagavān: We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and distributing of prasādam . And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupāda's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kīrtana in the temple. Mr. Chenique: Yes. This is why I am coming. Bhagavān: And no one is from India. (laughs) Mr. Chenique: I could see, because in India you don't find that. Jyotirmayī: Mr. Chenique wanted to ask you some questions. He's going to say in French, and I can translate. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching. Bhagavān: Do you remember this gentleman? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: He was the one who wrote that book. Prabhupāda: Herbert? Bhagavān: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Mr. Herbert? Bhagavān: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Māyāvādī, he is impersonalist. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: But if he . . . he has already written one book. He has presented me, that Kṛṣṇa . . . Bhagavān: The Yoga of Love. Prabhupāda: The Yoga of Love . So he has many times repeated the word "Kṛṣṇa." That will benefit him. (Jyotirmayī translates) Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking . . . Prabhupāda: God is person, then? What did he say? Jyotirmayī: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal? Like he said that in Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence. Just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all*-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person—sun-god, Vivasvān, he is person—he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato. By expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, this Brahman, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, tad brahma (Bs. 5.40). That Brahman. Brahman is . . . just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god. (Jyotirmayī translates) . . . and in Bhāgavata also it is stated: *The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. (Jyotirmayī translates) And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything—Brahman, Paramātmā, everything, Bhagavān." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Viṣṇu, myself, the world manifested, everything. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: You take that sweet preparation. (chuckles) Yes. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He is asking if it is possible for young Christians . . . because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God—that in fact is not really a name—by the name Kṛṣṇa, because according to what you are explaining, God is Kṛṣṇa. So can they chant the name of Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means . . . the Sanskrit word is īśvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "The Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, īśvara , God. Everyone is god; that is another thing. But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , the Supreme God, is Kṛṣṇa. (Jyotirmayī translates, explaining īśvara ) Supreme. We have got experience of īśvara . Just like I said, everyone is īśvara , everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also īśvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is īśvara . But these īśvaras , they are controlled by another īśvara . We are īśvara , but I am controlled by another īśvara . But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1), He is īśvara , but He is not controlled by anyone. That is parama , supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under . . . "being" and "Supreme Being." We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way you go, if you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, He is Supreme Being. This is the idea. (Jyotirmayī translates) *Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat , "There is no more controller beyond that, Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). And in Brahma-samhita, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form, body. Govinda ādi-puruṣam. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Yogeśvara: "O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." Prabhupāda: So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Kṛṣṇa is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. That is final God. Otherwise God . . . you will find—you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Kṛṣṇa, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattaḥ parataram. Parataram means better, or higher principle. No. (Jyotirmayī translates) Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam (BG 10.12). "You are person"— puruṣam means person— śāśvatam , "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, by Devala, by Nārada." Then it is final. (Jyotirmayī translates) *The Vedas say, therefore, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru . Vyāsadeva is the original guru . He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyāsadeva, ācāryas . So this is the instruction of the Vedas . Tad-vijñānārtham : in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet . And who is guru ? Śrotriyam , one who has heard from his guru , authorized person, śrotriyam, brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), and firmly convinced in the science of God. (Jyotirmayī translates) (Prabhupāda tells someone to open window) Yogeśvara: You can open more. Prabhupāda: Open more. Yes. You can open. Bhagavān: How does one get the experience of personal existence of God? Prabhupāda: That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject. You did not hear? Bhagavān: I was just asking. Prabhupāda: No. You are asking me or asking him? Bhagavān: No, for his benefit. (Prabhupāda laughs) You were talking experience. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Bhagavān: So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person. Mr. Chenique: No. I went through that experience, and I would like . . . I mean . . . may I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Kṛṣṇa, I said I would like much more to do so. (brief conversation in French) Jyotirmayī: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Kṛṣṇa consciousness what is missing in Christianity, to help them in their own development. Prabhupāda: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here? Prabhupāda: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: But then there is no need to dress as you dress. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Chenique: Why do you dress in that way, which is an Indian way and not the European way? Prabhupāda: Then why Christian go there? Mr. Chenique: They should not. Prabhupāda: Then we should not. Mr. Chenique: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong. Prabhupāda: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and . . . (indistinct) . . .? Therefore anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say. Mr. Chenique: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian. Prabhupāda: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe? Mr. Chenique: True. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot say that, "Why you have come here?" You cannot say. Jyotirmayī: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians? Prabhupāda: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you dress. Did I say that you do it? Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a . . . (indistinct) . . . priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them. I don't know if you have been to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that, "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. It is like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that, "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there? Priest: It's not wrong; it's funny. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rather, these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your coun . . . way. Priest: That I am . . . (indistinct) . . . for it. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it? Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhotī and . . . Prabhupāda: But we are not concerned with the dress; we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding. That's all. Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock? Jyotirmayī: No, he's not here yet . . . (indistinct) Priest: Have you got any French literature of conception . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: French literature. He's asking for French literature. (French) (break) Jyotirmayī: He translated the Tukārāma in French. Priest: Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma. Tukārāma is great Vaiṣṇava devotee of Maharashtra. His movement was saṅkīrtana movement. Devotee: He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This was southern India? Southern India? Priest: Maharashtra. Prabhupāda: Maharashtra, yes. Southwest. Priest: For the north it is south and the south it is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: ( japa ) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God Devotee: And also that . . . Prabhupāda: Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son? Devotee: They talk about the Trilogy—the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is like, compared like the Father . . . Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, Paramātmā and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11), it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is that not explained? Devotee: It's on His right hand. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all personal ideas. Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: Hmm? "Hallowed be Thy name." Devotee: "Hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: They're praising the name of the Lord. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following. (Jyotirmayī briefly translates into French for guests) *Prabhupāda: Muhammadanism also Vaiṣṇavism, because Muhammad says: "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dāsya*-rasa, dāsya. Śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya, mādhurya . So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer—both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dāsyam sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. So we don't say that, "This is bad" and "This is good." No. Both of them are bhakti . To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes: Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrūra, the example is given. Akrūra got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? This is also prayer, our prayer, prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in Your service." That's it. So that is vandana . So vandana , and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," asking something for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, "Engage me in Your service," little advanced. Because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs. *So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ārto arthārthī jñānī ca, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārtaḥ (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ means distress, ārtaḥ , one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say: "Ah. Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say: "No, sir." "Now pray to us." Then "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have brought this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured. That is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit, that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you . . . eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), He is supplying food for everyone. If He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. *So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Kṛṣṇa or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gītā : imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha (BG 4.1), "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." The sun*-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being. He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). He is the origin of everything. And He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata . (aside) Find out this verse. Find out. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Nitāi: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." *Prabhupāda: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God. That is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs, because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ , there is dharma , some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā . If somebody says: "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him. It is very . . ." they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam , the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74). So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi . . . (aside) Find out this verse: *This tattva*-darśinaḥ means experience. What is that? Nitāi: *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād*-bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19)—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect." Prabhupāda: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama . (aside) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries? (break) . . . record? Devotee: Which record? Bhagavān: From this afternoon, the recording. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Play now. Find out. Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got? Satsvarūpa: I think so. French man: (French) Jyotirmayī: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion. Prabhupāda: No. We are recommending, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that. (Jyotirmayī translates) French man: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Christianity God has no name. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jyotirmayī: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ. So they chant . . . Prabhupāda: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No? (Jyotirmayī translates) French man: No. Prabhupāda: But you said that His name be glorified. Devotee: They say: "Hallowed be Thy name." Mr. Chenique: But the name is not said. Devotee: Yes. Mr. Chenique: They have not said it. Devotee: Jesus said that, "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says: "but there is more to be told." Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Kṛṣṇa"? (Jyotirmayī translates) What is the objection? French man: (French) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis . *Bahudhā : God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Kṛṣṇa is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śakti tatrārpitā . That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken? (Jyotirmayī translates) Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but you can take "Rāma," you can take "Paraśurāma," you can take "Nṛsiṁha." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, any name, any name. Mr. Chenique: Kṛṣṇa has no special . . . Prabhupāda: No. Special there is. In this way: it is recommended in the śāstra , recommended in the śāstra, harer nāma. Harer means of God. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So this is the . . . we have . . . have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: Does it matter . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra*-nāma, viṣṇu sahasra . But in another place it is said, other Upaniṣad , Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . this name is recommended. Just like Agni Purāṇa and Kalisantaraṇa Upaniṣad , in this Vedic literature, this . . . Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but each Upaniṣad will recommend its own, I mean, specific deity, you know. Rāma, as you say, Hare Rāma. Or Śiva. Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāma is all right. Rāma we chant. Hare Rāma we chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma. Rāma also we chant. Yes. Mr. Chenique: Or Śiva. I mean, you see, in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in the *Bhāgavatam*, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . . . (SB 12.3.51). Mr. Chenique: I mean, whatever it is. You have got bhakti also in the Śaivites, all the advanced . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument . . . if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The idea is that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to . . . Prabhupāda: Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Harer nāma means God's name. Mr. Chenique: You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti , and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had the Jesus bhakti . And in your country, in America today, like you have got Hare Kṛṣṇa, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, is it also very present in many places. And the name does not matter, you know? There is no name who has got the . . . because then you find again what . . . Prabhupāda: No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but I mean, this is another point. Prabhupāda: But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name? Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but this is another discussion . . . (indistinct) . . . what we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it . . . Prabhupāda: That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says . . . just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son. Mr. Chenique: Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name. Prabhupāda: Yes. (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son? Mr. Chenique: No, it is not that question. The question is . . . Devotee: Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Kṛṣṇa is a very common name . . . Mr. Chenique: Yeah. Devotee: . . . in the sense that many people may be called Kṛṣṇa. But the Supreme God is also called Kṛṣṇa. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name. Devotee: That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching, "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing. Prabhupāda: Now if you think that Jesus Christ's name is also . . . you can chant, we have no objection we have no. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right. Priest: And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Priest: Name Kṛṣṇa, Allah, Jesus . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the . . . Prabhupāda: Allah, Allah. Allah is not name. That is written . . . it is not the name. It is just like the idea of God. Priest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Allah means God, īśvara . Priest: Allah means also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But that is not the name. That is . . . just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person also. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So "President" is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name. Mr. Chenique: Do you know the Sufi? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Chenique: Do you know the Sufis are Muslims . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Chenique: They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say . . . Prabhupāda: Allah means God. *Mr. Chenique: Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah, the all*-knowing, is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant. That's all. Yogeśvara: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the *Padma Purāṇa* , about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram , which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting " ha rāma ," which means "Where is Lord Rāma?" so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation. Prabhupāda: Although he did not mean Rāma, he condemned the boar as haram , "condemned," but the . . . Mr. Chenique: Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharashtra of the hunter. Prabhupāda: Yes, may be the same story. Mr. Chenique: Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then . . . it is a common story. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. (end) (Conversation with Christian Priest, Mr. Chenique) *Jyotirmayī: Mr. Chenique has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad*-gītā , and now you see he is wearing a dhotī , he's coming to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's coming for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gītā . But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Brahman, Paramātmā . . . he understands English? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then Personality of Godhead. (Jyotirmayī translates into French) Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are. Jyotirmayī: Yeah, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was . . . Prabhupāda: In India, where did you stay? Mr. Chenique: In Poona. Prabhupāda: Poona, oh. How long you were there? *Mr. Chenique: Twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: Half of my time, yes. I was in India half my life. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally. Mr. Chenique: Did you come to Poona? Prabhupāda: Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think. Mr. Chenique: Yes, not far. Prabhupāda: Yes. Poona is nice place. Climate is nice. Mr. Chenique: For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many good scholars. Mr. Chenique: Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich. Prabhupāda: Yes. Maharashtrian, they are educated, advanced. Mr. Chenique: How do you find your disciples here in Europe? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Mr. Chenique: I shouldn't ask personal question. Prabhupāda: No, it is not personal. It is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone. Mr. Chenique: It does, it does. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only here in Europe—in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center. Australia. Mr. Chenique: In Bombay also you have got? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bombay just now we have got a very big place. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Prabhupāda: And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasādam . We are at Juhu quarter. Mr. Chenique: At Juhu. Prabhupāda: (someone enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here. Bhagavān: You have been to India? You've worked there. Mr. Chenique: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, he was twenty*-five years there. *Mr. Chenique: Twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: He is Indian. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: And I was . . . I mean I am still a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but not of the old tradition of Maharashtra, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of Pandharpur, Viṭhobā. Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, that Viṭhṭhala, Viṭhṭhala. Viṭhṭhala, there is. So they are Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: And it's the main . . . (indistinct) . . . center of Maharashtra. Prabhupāda: Yes, Pandharpur. *Mr. Chenique: When I went to India twenty*-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage. Prabhupāda: What was your subject matter studying? Mr. Chenique: I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brāhmin pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharashtra, Orissa, Jnaneshvara. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma, Tukārāma. Mr. Chenique: Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Chenique: I have proceeded Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma is in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mr. Chenique: That's right. Prabhupāda: He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga , that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya. Mr. Chenique: It's a great bhakti tradition. Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . (aside) Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti . Nitāi: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." *Prabhupāda: So in another place also it is said, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.68). "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, then always think of Me," man-manā , "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles. It is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So by uttering the word Kṛṣṇa , immediately you think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma . . . what is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, everyone can see how these young boys and girls—they are not very old; *they have taken to it quite young—but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got—Kṛṣṇa dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life—no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Kṛṣṇa says that, "Surely you come back to Me." What is the second line? Man-manā . . . *Nitāi: Mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat*-parāyaṇaḥ. *Prabhupāda: In another place it is said asaṁśaya . That is in the Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn—they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. *The first*-class yogīs . Actually, no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa, tongue, and hear with the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir (SB 10.14.3): by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending . . . "We" means Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says that, "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God. Why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name? French man: Jehovah. Prabhupāda: Jehovah? French man: He has no name in Christianity. Prabhupāda: Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa; what is the harm? Every religion believes—not believes; it is fact—that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion? Bhagavān: Buddhist religion? Mr. Chenique: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament. Prabhupāda: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible. Mr. Chenique: You have got many idea of God. Prabhupāda: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God. Mr. Chenique: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Chenique: And this experience is different of many people. Prabhupāda: But you experience . . . because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect. Mr. Chenique: But who is to say . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . Mr. Chenique: . . . what is a perfect experience? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Even we are imperfect, with our . . . as far as our knowledge goes, now generally, just like the Christians, they say: "God is great." Is it not? Mr. Chenique: That is rather the Muslims. Prabhupāda: Huh? That is Muslim. Mr. Chenique: Allah. Prabhupāda: Allahu akbar . So what is the conception of God of the Christian? Mr. Chenique: As you said, it's impersonal, transpersonal, that what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Relationship means that He must be a person. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Otherwise, how you can . . . Mr. Chenique: It is beyond a person. Prabhupāda: Beyond the person . . . just like we have got experience: when you call "relation," then "relation" means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation. Mr. Chenique: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So relation means two person—one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but what we don't . . . we don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself. Prabhupāda: What is that, relation itself? Explain. Mr. Chenique: It's when you are two together, when the master . . . Prabhupāda: Then two together means person. As soon as you . . . Mr. Chenique: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation. Prabhupāda: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two person. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no? Mr. Chenique: You see, I have got relation . . . Prabhupāda: We are two person. Mr. Chenique: . . . with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship. Prabhupāda: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation, as we have got relation? Mr. Chenique: Certainly. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise. Mr. Chenique: Yes, but I don't make of God the object of relationship. Prabhupāda: Then what . . . Mr. Chenique: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship. Bhagavān: A relation with who? Mr. Chenique: Relation with anything. Bhagavān: That is God? Mr. Chenique: That is God. Prabhupāda: What is that? Bhagavān: He thinks relationship with anything means God. Prabhupāda: Anything? Bhagavān: Yes, anything. Mr. Chenique: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship with you, so then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter . . . Prabhupāda: But in your Bible you say: "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible, "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father. Mr. Chenique: But . . . Prabhupāda: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son. French man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the Christianity of this country. There are two main conceptions—the oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of any particular Church. We are just trying to understand the word relation . French Man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship . So in the Bible it is clearly said: "O Father," so the relation is father and son. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no? Mr. Chenique: You have to . . . I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma, you know. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced, but what is my own experience. Prabhupāda: No, no. God's relationship should be universal, not that . . . it may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is . . . Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion; that is a different thing. Mr. Chenique: But we have to have the opinion which we experience. Prabhupāda: What is that experience? You ask: "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the *Vedas* also it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānām , the chief, the Supreme. And in the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka , that one; God is one. Bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān : He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the *Vedas* and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way—as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are relative with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife. Mr. Chenique: I don't think so. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But . . . Mr. Chenique: Not opinion; experience. Prabhupāda: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience? Mr. Chenique: That God is beyond all our experience. Prabhupāda: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. (laughs) If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: Personally, of course, but . . . Prabhupāda: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: But if you know what you can't explain . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know. Mr. Chenique: You don't think an illusion . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship. Prabhupāda: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing. That is knowledge. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but that knowledge is very . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach, because you do not know, it is not within your experience. Mr. Chenique: That's why I don't preach. Prabhupāda: That's all right, then . . . (laughs) (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: So you cannot explain. That is all right. Mr. Chenique: That means I have the experience . . . Prabhupāda: But . . . Mr. Chenique: . . . that my experience is limited . . . Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Mr. Chenique: . . . and God is unlimited. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That I admit. Mr. Chenique: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Just like you know . . . Mr. Chenique: And nobody can. Prabhupāda: . . . you do not know me; you have no experience about me. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: But if I say: "I am like this," you will get experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Then why no? Mr. Chenique: If I live with you for some time . . . Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swāmījī might have one thousand dollar," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say: "No, I have got one million dollar," then you get the experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why no? Mr. Chenique: I will get the experience of you when we are living together. Prabhupāda: That means you cannot talk with God. Mr. Chenique: Of course not. Prabhupāda: That's it. But if anyone can talk? Mr. Chenique: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mr. Chenique: But my experience is that you cannot . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. So direct experience, taking experience, "I am like this." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, Find out this verse. Nitāi: "I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Prabhupāda: Just see. This experience. *Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: God. Mr. Chenique: I mean, you need to have faith for that. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? *Bhagavān: You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Why faith? God is God. Why faith? Mr. Chenique: Because, you know, I have been living in . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. You have no experience, you have said. You have no experience. Mr. Chenique: No, I have not said. You said I did. Prabhupāda: No, you said that God is beyond your experience. You said. Mr. Chenique: A real svāmī listen first if he wants to profit. Prabhupāda: First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience. Mr. Chenique: That's right. That is my experience. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: You say God is beyond your experience, you say. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience. Because I found out that all my experience does not mean God. Prabhupāda: But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about? Mr. Chenique: No, you don't . . . you see . . . Prabhupāda: Then it is a bit difficult. Mr. Chenique: I have always told that the duty of the svāmī is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand. Prabhupāda: No, no, you said . . . first of all let us . . . why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God. Mr. Chenique: No, I never said that. Prabhupāda: Then tell me your experience. That I want to know. Mr. Chenique: That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta , and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience. Prabhupāda: That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you? Mr. Chenique: That the image of God, as do you call it Kṛṣṇa or Rāma or Nṛsiṁha or any of the avatāra . . . and you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar, there was a svāmī who called himself an avatāra , and . . . Prabhupāda: That anyone can say. I can say third avatāra , he can say fourth avatāra . Mr. Chenique: So if anyone can say . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say: "I am avatāra ." Mr. Chenique: Exactly. Prabhupāda: So . . . Mr. Chenique: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatāra ? Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatāra . We have got documents who is avatāra . Mr. Chenique: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . He is the origin. That it is stated here, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You know Sanskrit? Then what is the meaning of ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ ? "I am the source of all avatāra ." Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but who has written that? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mr. Chenique: Who has written that? Śrīla Vyāsa. Prabhupāda: Anywhere he has written. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has written. Kṛṣṇa has spoken, Vyāsadeva has written, and it is accepted. Mr. Chenique: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress. Mr. Chenique: Ah, you have to go beyond. Prabhupāda: As soon as you . . . just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother, and you believe that, "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect. That's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but you know . . . Prabhupāda: If you say: "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know. Mr. Chenique: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say . . . *Mr. Chenique: . . . that "I am an avatāra " or "I am Guru Mahārāj*-ji" or "I am . . ." so to say, "Meher Baba" or "Satya Sai Baba," so many bābās exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really bābā ? They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatāra , and they have many disciples . . . Prabhupāda: But we don't believe them. Mr. Chenique: No, but they have many disciples. Prabhupāda: Many disciples, that is another thing. Mr. Chenique: Millions. Prabhupāda: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody . . . so many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity. Mr. Chenique: And if I had said that . . . *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : Kṛṣṇa does not say that, "Millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it. Mr. Chenique: That's right. Prabhupāda: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is paramparā . Just like in India—you have been in India—there are ācāryas : Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya. If the ācārya accept, then you accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Rāmānujācārya, high quality devotee; Madhvācārya, high quality devotee; *Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says—yes. So Śaṅkarācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Rāmānujācārya says: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvācārya says: "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā, nāsāv munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A muni , a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām : it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Big personalities, ācāryas —that is the process. Ācāryopāsanam . What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Ācāryopāsanam : we have to understand through the ācāryas . That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa in the Tenth Chapter. (aside) Find out, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. Read it. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that translation? *Nitāi: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, and He is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, Asita, Nārada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says: "I am avatāra ," "I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the ācāryas , therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. As soon mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. So Arjuna says that paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12): "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is our point. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and . . . Kṛṣṇa comes, and He is accepted by all the great ācāryas . Then our business is perfect. (pause) So give them prasāda . Bhagavān: Yes. I have prasādam in my office. Prabhupāda: Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). *Bhagavān: Have you seen our Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: He saw our all books. He is a scholar. Devotee: This is a translation of Bhāgavata Purāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Devotee: In sixty volumes we will translate this. *Bhagavān: We have Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Here it is. *Devotee: And the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, all volumes. Bhagavān: Would you like to see some of the pictures? Mr. Chenique: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanātana Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees. Bhagavān: (as prasādam is brought in) This is one of our other specialties. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). *Nitāi: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . It's a description of the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. That's in two volumes. Mr. Chenique: It's a tremendous work. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world. Nitāi: This is *Nectar of Devotion* , by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the *Purāṇas* , and he supports devotional service. Mr. Chenique: This is what you use for your devotional service? Nitāi: They're a model. Bhagavān: We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and distributing of prasādam . And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupāda's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kīrtana in the temple. Mr. Chenique: Yes. This is why I am coming. Bhagavān: And no one is from India. (laughs) Mr. Chenique: I could see, because in India you don't find that. Jyotirmayī: Mr. Chenique wanted to ask you some questions. He's going to say in French, and I can translate. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching. Bhagavān: Do you remember this gentleman? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: He was the one who wrote that book. Prabhupāda: Herbert? Bhagavān: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Mr. Herbert? Bhagavān: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Māyāvādī, he is impersonalist. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: But if he . . . he has already written one book. He has presented me, that Kṛṣṇa . . . Bhagavān: The Yoga of Love. Prabhupāda: The Yoga of Love . So he has many times repeated the word "Kṛṣṇa." That will benefit him. (Jyotirmayī translates) Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking . . . Prabhupāda: God is person, then? What did he say? Jyotirmayī: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal? Like he said that in Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence. Just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all*-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person—sun-god, Vivasvān, he is person—he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato. By expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, this Brahman, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, tad brahma (Bs. 5.40). That Brahman. Brahman is . . . just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god. (Jyotirmayī translates) . . . and in Bhāgavata also it is stated: *The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. (Jyotirmayī translates) And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything—Brahman, Paramātmā, everything, Bhagavān." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Viṣṇu, myself, the world manifested, everything. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: You take that sweet preparation. (chuckles) Yes. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He is asking if it is possible for young Christians . . . because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God—that in fact is not really a name—by the name Kṛṣṇa, because according to what you are explaining, God is Kṛṣṇa. So can they chant the name of Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means . . . the Sanskrit word is īśvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "The Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, īśvara , God. Everyone is god; that is another thing. But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , the Supreme God, is Kṛṣṇa. (Jyotirmayī translates, explaining īśvara ) Supreme. We have got experience of īśvara . Just like I said, everyone is īśvara , everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also īśvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is īśvara . But these īśvaras , they are controlled by another īśvara . We are īśvara , but I am controlled by another īśvara . But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1), He is īśvara , but He is not controlled by anyone. That is parama , supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under . . . "being" and "Supreme Being." We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way you go, if you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, He is Supreme Being. This is the idea. (Jyotirmayī translates) *Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat , "There is no more controller beyond that, Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). And in Brahma-samhita, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form, body. Govinda ādi-puruṣam. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Yogeśvara: "O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." Prabhupāda: So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Kṛṣṇa is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. That is final God. Otherwise God . . . you will find—you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Kṛṣṇa, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattaḥ parataram. Parataram means better, or higher principle. No. (Jyotirmayī translates) Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam (BG 10.12). "You are person"— puruṣam means person— śāśvatam , "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, by Devala, by Nārada." Then it is final. (Jyotirmayī translates) *The Vedas say, therefore, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru . Vyāsadeva is the original guru . He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyāsadeva, ācāryas . So this is the instruction of the Vedas . Tad-vijñānārtham : in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet . And who is guru ? Śrotriyam , one who has heard from his guru , authorized person, śrotriyam, brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), and firmly convinced in the science of God. (Jyotirmayī translates) (Prabhupāda tells someone to open window) Yogeśvara: You can open more. Prabhupāda: Open more. Yes. You can open. Bhagavān: How does one get the experience of personal existence of God? Prabhupāda: That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject. You did not hear? Bhagavān: I was just asking. Prabhupāda: No. You are asking me or asking him? Bhagavān: No, for his benefit. (Prabhupāda laughs) You were talking experience. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Bhagavān: So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person. Mr. Chenique: No. I went through that experience, and I would like . . . I mean . . . may I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Kṛṣṇa, I said I would like much more to do so. (brief conversation in French) Jyotirmayī: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Kṛṣṇa consciousness what is missing in Christianity, to help them in their own development. Prabhupāda: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here? Prabhupāda: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: But then there is no need to dress as you dress. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Chenique: Why do you dress in that way, which is an Indian way and not the European way? Prabhupāda: Then why Christian go there? Mr. Chenique: They should not. Prabhupāda: Then we should not. Mr. Chenique: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong. Prabhupāda: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and . . . (indistinct) . . .? Therefore anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say. Mr. Chenique: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian. Prabhupāda: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe? Mr. Chenique: True. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot say that, "Why you have come here?" You cannot say. Jyotirmayī: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians? Prabhupāda: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you dress. Did I say that you do it? Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a . . . (indistinct) . . . priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them. I don't know if you have been to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that, "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. It is like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that, "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there? Priest: It's not wrong; it's funny. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rather, these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your coun . . . way. Priest: That I am . . . (indistinct) . . . for it. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it? Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhotī and . . . Prabhupāda: But we are not concerned with the dress; we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding. That's all. Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock? Jyotirmayī: No, he's not here yet . . . (indistinct) Priest: Have you got any French literature of conception . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: French literature. He's asking for French literature. (French) (break) Jyotirmayī: He translated the Tukārāma in French. Priest: Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma. Tukārāma is great Vaiṣṇava devotee of Maharashtra. His movement was saṅkīrtana movement. Devotee: He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This was southern India? Southern India? Priest: Maharashtra. Prabhupāda: Maharashtra, yes. Southwest. Priest: For the north it is south and the south it is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: ( japa ) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God Devotee: And also that . . . Prabhupāda: Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son? Devotee: They talk about the Trilogy—the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is like, compared like the Father . . . Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, Paramātmā and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11), it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is that not explained? Devotee: It's on His right hand. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all personal ideas. Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: Hmm? "Hallowed be Thy name." Devotee: "Hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: They're praising the name of the Lord. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following. (Jyotirmayī briefly translates into French for guests) *Prabhupāda: Muhammadanism also Vaiṣṇavism, because Muhammad says: "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dāsya*-rasa, dāsya. Śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya, mādhurya . So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer—both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dāsyam sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. So we don't say that, "This is bad" and "This is good." No. Both of them are bhakti . To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes: Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrūra, the example is given. Akrūra got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? This is also prayer, our prayer, prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in Your service." That's it. So that is vandana . So vandana , and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," asking something for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, "Engage me in Your service," little advanced. Because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs. *So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ārto arthārthī jñānī ca, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārtaḥ (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ means distress, ārtaḥ , one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say: "Ah. Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say: "No, sir." "Now pray to us." Then "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have brought this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured. That is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit, that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you . . . eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), He is supplying food for everyone. If He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. *So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Kṛṣṇa or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gītā : imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha (BG 4.1), "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." The sun*-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being. He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). He is the origin of everything. And He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata . (aside) Find out this verse. Find out. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Nitāi: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." *Prabhupāda: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God. That is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs, because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ , there is dharma , some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā . If somebody says: "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him. It is very . . ." they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam , the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74). So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi . . . (aside) Find out this verse: *This tattva*-darśinaḥ means experience. What is that? Nitāi: *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād*-bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19)—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect." Prabhupāda: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama . (aside) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries? (break) . . . record? Devotee: Which record? Bhagavān: From this afternoon, the recording. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Play now. Find out. Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got? Satsvarūpa: I think so. French man: (French) Jyotirmayī: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion. Prabhupāda: No. We are recommending, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that. (Jyotirmayī translates) French man: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Christianity God has no name. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jyotirmayī: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ. So they chant . . . Prabhupāda: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No? (Jyotirmayī translates) French man: No. Prabhupāda: But you said that His name be glorified. Devotee: They say: "Hallowed be Thy name." Mr. Chenique: But the name is not said. Devotee: Yes. Mr. Chenique: They have not said it. Devotee: Jesus said that, "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says: "but there is more to be told." Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Kṛṣṇa"? (Jyotirmayī translates) What is the objection? French man: (French) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis . *Bahudhā : God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Kṛṣṇa is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śakti tatrārpitā . That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken? (Jyotirmayī translates) Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but you can take "Rāma," you can take "Paraśurāma," you can take "Nṛsiṁha." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, any name, any name. Mr. Chenique: Kṛṣṇa has no special . . . Prabhupāda: No. Special there is. In this way: it is recommended in the śāstra , recommended in the śāstra, harer nāma. Harer means of God. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So this is the . . . we have . . . have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: Does it matter . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra*-nāma, viṣṇu sahasra . But in another place it is said, other Upaniṣad , Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . this name is recommended. Just like Agni Purāṇa and Kalisantaraṇa Upaniṣad , in this Vedic literature, this . . . Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but each Upaniṣad will recommend its own, I mean, specific deity, you know. Rāma, as you say, Hare Rāma. Or Śiva. Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāma is all right. Rāma we chant. Hare Rāma we chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma. Rāma also we chant. Yes. Mr. Chenique: Or Śiva. I mean, you see, in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in the *Bhāgavatam*, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . . . (SB 12.3.51). Mr. Chenique: I mean, whatever it is. You have got bhakti also in the Śaivites, all the advanced . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument . . . if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The idea is that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to . . . Prabhupāda: Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Harer nāma means God's name. Mr. Chenique: You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti , and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had the Jesus bhakti . And in your country, in America today, like you have got Hare Kṛṣṇa, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, is it also very present in many places. And the name does not matter, you know? There is no name who has got the . . . because then you find again what . . . Prabhupāda: No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but I mean, this is another point. Prabhupāda: But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name? Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but this is another discussion . . . (indistinct) . . . what we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it . . . Prabhupāda: That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says . . . just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son. Mr. Chenique: Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name. Prabhupāda: Yes. (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son? Mr. Chenique: No, it is not that question. The question is . . . Devotee: Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Kṛṣṇa is a very common name . . . Mr. Chenique: Yeah. Devotee: . . . in the sense that many people may be called Kṛṣṇa. But the Supreme God is also called Kṛṣṇa. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name. Devotee: That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching, "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing. Prabhupāda: Now if you think that Jesus Christ's name is also . . . you can chant, we have no objection we have no. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right. Priest: And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Priest: Name Kṛṣṇa, Allah, Jesus . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the . . . Prabhupāda: Allah, Allah. Allah is not name. That is written . . . it is not the name. It is just like the idea of God. Priest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Allah means God, īśvara . Priest: Allah means also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But that is not the name. That is . . . just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person also. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So "President" is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name. Mr. Chenique: Do you know the Sufi? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Chenique: Do you know the Sufis are Muslims . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Chenique: They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say . . . Prabhupāda: Allah means God. *Mr. Chenique: Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah, the all*-knowing, is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant. That's all. Yogeśvara: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the *Padma Purāṇa* , about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram , which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting " ha rāma ," which means "Where is Lord Rāma?" so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation. Prabhupāda: Although he did not mean Rāma, he condemned the boar as haram , "condemned," but the . . . Mr. Chenique: Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharashtra of the hunter. Prabhupāda: Yes, may be the same story. Mr. Chenique: Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then . . . it is a common story. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. (end) (Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris) Yogeśvara: Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the Law House of Paris. Prabhupāda: Law House means legislative assembly? No. Yogeśvara: It is part of the National Assembly? M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National . . . yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like we have in our country "Legislative Assembly." (Yogeśvara and Pṛthu*-putra translate Prabhupāda's comments into French throughout) M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) Yes, like that. Prabhupāda: But they're not necessarily lawyers. M. Mesman: (French) Prabhupāda: We are also lawyer—not in the material sense—but we know what is the law of God. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks what are our activities in France. Prabhupāda: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what are we doing for that. Nitāi: What ways are we doing that? *Pṛthu*-putra: In which way, what ways, how? Prabhupāda: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear, and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: This gentleman ask if the disciples have to give up their religion. If, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee. Prabhupāda: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand. Not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have temple in French . . . in France, or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it? *Prabhupāda: Any way. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is . . . you show Bhagavad*-gītā . (devotees show books) And all other books also show him. *Pṛthu*-putra: He already know this. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says unfortunately, he doesn't read English. Prabhupāda: Here is French, French language. Bhagavān: (explains in French about number of books distributed) M. Mesman: (French) Bhagavān: We have practical political philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program? *Prabhupāda: Our . . . we have not only political program, but we have got political and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think . . . just like in your body there are four division: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first*-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated . . . (aside) Find out, śamo damas titikṣā . *Yogeśvara: (to Pṛthu*-putra) You want to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates) *Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society: the first*-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses . . . (aside) Hmm. Read. Yes. Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first*-class man. Yogeśvara: (aside) Would you like to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates verse) *Prabhupāda: With all these qualification, one can become first*-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class . . . Bhagavān: (correcting translator) "These people should be . . ." Prabhupāda said "these people." *Pṛthu*-putra: (corrects translation) *Prabhupāda: A class of men, first*-class men . . . M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says we say: "They should be," which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation. *Prabhupāda: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is . . . Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first*-class men to lead the human society. Then next class . . . the head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated . . . Yogeśvara: Nitāi? Prabhupāda: Teja . . . what is that? Nitāi: It's, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Teja . No? Nitāi: Śauryam . . . *"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) *Prabhupāda: Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Nitāi: *"Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others." (Pṛthu-putra translates) *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras , fourth*-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth class. Democracy means selected, I mean to . . . voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore there are so many anomalies. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this concept is against the . . . Yogeśvara: Traditional Western capitalism. *Pṛthu*-putra: The traditional Western capitalists. Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea? *Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first class, second class, third class, fourth class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth*-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first class, second class, third class . . . they're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the . . . as to keep the body fit we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gītā and . . . Prabhupāda: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages. M. Mesman: English? Prabhupāda: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France. Bhagavān: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple. Prabhupāda: Dedicated devotees, hundred. M. Mesman: (French) *Yogeśvara: If one is a full*-time disciple . . . Prabhupāda: He's dedicated disciple. Yogeśvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here? Prabhupāda: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris, or they are a little bit everywhere . . . Yogeśvara: Explain there's traveling parties. *Bhagavān: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (Pṛthu*-putra translates) M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have a school in France. Prabhupāda: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: This school is for all ages, or just for children? *Prabhupāda: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are . . . other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D. Beginning from A*-B-C-D up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books. Yogeśvara: "Did you write all these books?" Prabhupāda: That you can say. What can I . . .? Yogeśvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?" Bhagavān: Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word*-meaning. Then I combine with reference to the modern society how they can be applicable to the modern life. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but many Frenchmen came to see me, and . . . Yogeśvara: Last year, at Hotel de Ville. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel de Ville. Prabhupāda: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publication that will come. Yes? Hmm. (someone enters with a plate of prasādam) Bhagavān: This you can explain prasādam, prasādam . *Pṛthu*-putra: (explains about prasādam ) Prabhupāda: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two, three things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparation out of that. From milk and grains and sugar . . . and? What else? *Pṛthu*-putra: Fruit, vegetables. Bhagavān: Fruits. Prabhupāda: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take. Yogeśvara: Maybe you can also explain that this . . . Prabhupāda: What is this preparation, explain. You explain. Yogeśvara: This is burfī . M. Mesman: C'est bon . Bhagavān: This is cake, cookie. Prabhupāda: No, not cookie. It is burfī , like . . . what is this made of? Bhagavān: This is . . . Jyotirmayī: This is sandeśa . *Prabhupāda: Oh, sandeśa . It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa , you give him one more. (M. Mesman laughs) So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparation, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk we make hundreds of preparation. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh*-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh—everything, whatever he likes—because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free, without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. *So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pound. One thousand pound daily in our one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparation from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our program, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh*-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is a French . . . Yogeśvara: Saying. *Pṛthu*-putra: A French saying that says: "We don't have to kill the cow's milk." Yogeśvara: "The cow who gives milk." *Pṛthu*-putra: The cow who gives milk. Yogeśvara: One should not kill . . . that's a French saying. Prabhupāda: Ah! Yogeśvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow? Yogeśvara: It's a proverb. *Pṛthu*-putra: Proverb. Yogeśvara: Saying. Prabhupāda: Problem? Yogeśvara: Proverb. Prabhupāda: So put into action this proverb. So that is . . . you are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives . . .? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead . . . (break) . . . free of charges. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him. Prabhupāda: So kindly do this service. Kṛṣṇa will bless you. M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . *Prabhupāda: . . . giving to the vultures. Let the flesh*-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs) Yogeśvara: It would ruin the economy. Prabhupāda: Economy? What is that economy? Yogeśvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the Communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good . . . Prabhupāda: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day, forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We recommend the meat*-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't . . . you eat it—after death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right, you eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures. Yogeśvara: Śakuni . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni , yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture*-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animal, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas , and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men they are, leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. Eh? All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first-, second-, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is . . . who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth class, less than fourth class. Fourth class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principle. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principle, just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena . . . (SB 6.1.13). The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama , controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly . . . so the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. *Human life means controlling. I give this example: just like in the . . . in your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animal, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something, "Get out." Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money, so I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principle is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left," "Keep to the right," for . . . this is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere, but he's not criminal, because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately he's criminal. Human society means to abide first*-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life, Freud. What is this Freud? Yogeśvara: Sigmund Freud. Prabhupāda: The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing. Yogeśvara: There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's granddaughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying: "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing. *Prabhupāda: He's ad . . . she's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth*-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing. They are leaders. Then, what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. Nitāi: "Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils." Prabhupāda: Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon, a big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound) " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) That's all. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by . . . that is stated here, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals, that's all, small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now, na yat-karṇa . . . karṇa-pathet, upeta . . .? Nitāi: Upeto . Prabhupāda: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal. Nitāi: Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ. Prabhupāda: Jātu . What is . . .? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport? *Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the levels of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so*-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service . . ." Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street. Bhagavān: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D.'s who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck driver and taxi driver. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class, too, the professors. They're the educated class of people. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not brāhmin . Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmins . Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that, "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. "I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear." We are not asking money that, "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad*-gītā ." We never say so. So those . . . these so-called teachers, they first of all settle up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. A brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money, but I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business. Bhagavān: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly, or else they will be fired and get no salary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras . That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise . . . it is straight commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And because people are killing, they're . . . now they are giving man*-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception . . . at least, outside America nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is their standard? Yogeśvara: (referring to guest) Did he say anything before he left? *Jyotirmayī: Yeah, he said that he was in the . . . he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow*-killing. So he said . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparation. Then, so far meat*-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that, "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow, which is just like mother, if they're even willing to practically kill their parents? Prabhupāda: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that, "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough. They're eating so much beef. Prabhupāda: No, fast, fast . . . fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cow is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take its milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society. Yogeśvara: If they don't kill it, there'll even be more cows. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: . . . there'll be even more cows. *Prabhupāda: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that, "Don't . . ." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the . . . how long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. So where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go*-rakṣya . That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. "Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing," it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows . . . and you see, they're . . . our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows, because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that, "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning. Bhagavān: He gave a proverb. Prabhupāda: Rather, he supported. Bhagavān: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten year, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole humankind. But these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed, amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, " Dung! dung! " and kill you, be kill you. You know. You showed me? Bhagavān: Yeah, French guillotine. *Prabhupāda: You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestant. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child, abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat*-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Where is Nitāi? Bhagavān: They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get born, their mother kills them. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story? Nitāi: The . . .? Prabhupāda: Vyādha . The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Nitāi: Which . . .? *Prabhupāda: This twenty*-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā. Nitāi: No, I don't think it's typed yet. Prabhupāda: What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there. Yogeśvara: Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you . . . mām . . . this meaning, the flesh, in Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating, that this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. He'll be given the opportunity to kill you. And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that, "You are giving your life before Goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, Goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that, "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra , who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra . While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra . The priest will say in the ear that, "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra . Yogeśvara: Māṁ sa . Prabhupāda: Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. Nitāi: That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it . . . she'll type it today or tomorrow. Prabhupāda: There these things are discussed. Yogeśvara: The story of Mṛgāri and . . .? *Prabhupāda: In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat*-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows. Bhagavān: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects . . . *Prabhupāda: How they'll understand, all dull*-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter) Bhagavān: That's intelligent. Jyotirmayī: When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very big actress—she's known all over the world—she's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try. Prabhupāda: This mayor, mayor . . .? This mayor? Yogeśvara: This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her. Bhagavān: What about him? (laughter) Yogeśvara: He is more interested in . . . Prabhupāda: What did he say about himself? *Jyotirmayī: It's when I asked him. I asked him, "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow*-killing?" So he said: "Oh . . . but there is this actress." Just give it . . . gave it to someone else to do. *Prabhupāda: No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). So we must take to agricultural work, to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee , you can start so many restaurants. That I have already . . . I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. You'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is our program. Yogeśvara: We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed? Satsvarūpa: Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole Society. Prabhupāda: Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā . We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachorīs, siṅgāra, purī, halavā and so many other things, jurī , and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the . . . that every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So, so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more. Yogeśvara: Same. Prabhupāda: Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time . . . that's a in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction, charge is the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās . (laughter) Prabhupāda: That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow. Bhagavān: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says: "I want to eat some fruits," "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata . If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop he'll bring one, what is called . . .? Bhagavān: A bowl? Prabhupāda: Bowl, big bowl. Or it is . . . what do you call, where you keep water? Bhagavān: Pot. *Prabhupāda: Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food, they'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin . . . rice was nothing. Rice . . . in our childhood, we have seen, two annas per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one anna . So by giving one- anna *-worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees' cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger . . . one saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama , because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama , and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here," just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama . He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya : "They are my men; *don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog, that's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair, one man has trained—I think most of you have seen—one tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that, "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Ṭhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that, "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. *These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally what is important they do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said, Prabhupāda, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized. Prabhupāda: That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is there. Prabhupāda: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī . We have no such objection. *Yogeśvara: I can remember now, when I was in college there were so many groups trying to reform the young people—the YMCA, the church groups—so many different social*-working groups trying to make young people become more . . . not so restless, not so much wild. But no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy, because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said: "Oh, he's the one, there." Prabhupāda: Is there any other meeting? *Jyotirmayī: Yes, but it will be later. It will be at six*-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming will be a psychiatrist. Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari*-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should I distribute this to the devotees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes. Prabhupāda: Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. (end) (Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris) Yogeśvara: Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the Law House of Paris. Prabhupāda: Law House means legislative assembly? No. Yogeśvara: It is part of the National Assembly? M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National . . . yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like we have in our country "Legislative Assembly." (Yogeśvara and Pṛthu*-putra translate Prabhupāda's comments into French throughout) M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) Yes, like that. Prabhupāda: But they're not necessarily lawyers. M. Mesman: (French) Prabhupāda: We are also lawyer—not in the material sense—but we know what is the law of God. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks what are our activities in France. Prabhupāda: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what are we doing for that. Nitāi: What ways are we doing that? *Pṛthu*-putra: In which way, what ways, how? Prabhupāda: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear, and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: This gentleman ask if the disciples have to give up their religion. If, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee. Prabhupāda: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand. Not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have temple in French . . . in France, or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it? *Prabhupāda: Any way. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is . . . you show Bhagavad*-gītā . (devotees show books) And all other books also show him. *Pṛthu*-putra: He already know this. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says unfortunately, he doesn't read English. Prabhupāda: Here is French, French language. Bhagavān: (explains in French about number of books distributed) M. Mesman: (French) Bhagavān: We have practical political philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program? *Prabhupāda: Our . . . we have not only political program, but we have got political and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think . . . just like in your body there are four division: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first*-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated . . . (aside) Find out, śamo damas titikṣā . *Yogeśvara: (to Pṛthu*-putra) You want to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates) *Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society: the first*-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses . . . (aside) Hmm. Read. Yes. Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first*-class man. Yogeśvara: (aside) Would you like to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates verse) *Prabhupāda: With all these qualification, one can become first*-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class . . . Bhagavān: (correcting translator) "These people should be . . ." Prabhupāda said "these people." *Pṛthu*-putra: (corrects translation) *Prabhupāda: A class of men, first*-class men . . . M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says we say: "They should be," which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation. *Prabhupāda: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is . . . Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first*-class men to lead the human society. Then next class . . . the head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated . . . Yogeśvara: Nitāi? Prabhupāda: Teja . . . what is that? Nitāi: It's, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Teja . No? Nitāi: Śauryam . . . *"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) *Prabhupāda: Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Nitāi: *"Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others." (Pṛthu-putra translates) *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras , fourth*-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth class. Democracy means selected, I mean to . . . voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore there are so many anomalies. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this concept is against the . . . Yogeśvara: Traditional Western capitalism. *Pṛthu*-putra: The traditional Western capitalists. Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea? *Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first class, second class, third class, fourth class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth*-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first class, second class, third class . . . they're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the . . . as to keep the body fit we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gītā and . . . Prabhupāda: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages. M. Mesman: English? Prabhupāda: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France. Bhagavān: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple. Prabhupāda: Dedicated devotees, hundred. M. Mesman: (French) *Yogeśvara: If one is a full*-time disciple . . . Prabhupāda: He's dedicated disciple. Yogeśvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here? Prabhupāda: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris, or they are a little bit everywhere . . . Yogeśvara: Explain there's traveling parties. *Bhagavān: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (Pṛthu*-putra translates) M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have a school in France. Prabhupāda: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: This school is for all ages, or just for children? *Prabhupāda: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are . . . other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D. Beginning from A*-B-C-D up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books. Yogeśvara: "Did you write all these books?" Prabhupāda: That you can say. What can I . . .? Yogeśvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?" Bhagavān: Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word*-meaning. Then I combine with reference to the modern society how they can be applicable to the modern life. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but many Frenchmen came to see me, and . . . Yogeśvara: Last year, at Hotel de Ville. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel de Ville. Prabhupāda: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publication that will come. Yes? Hmm. (someone enters with a plate of prasādam) Bhagavān: This you can explain prasādam, prasādam . *Pṛthu*-putra: (explains about prasādam ) Prabhupāda: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two, three things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparation out of that. From milk and grains and sugar . . . and? What else? *Pṛthu*-putra: Fruit, vegetables. Bhagavān: Fruits. Prabhupāda: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take. Yogeśvara: Maybe you can also explain that this . . . Prabhupāda: What is this preparation, explain. You explain. Yogeśvara: This is burfī . M. Mesman: C'est bon . Bhagavān: This is cake, cookie. Prabhupāda: No, not cookie. It is burfī , like . . . what is this made of? Bhagavān: This is . . . Jyotirmayī: This is sandeśa . *Prabhupāda: Oh, sandeśa . It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa , you give him one more. (M. Mesman laughs) So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparation, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk we make hundreds of preparation. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh*-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh—everything, whatever he likes—because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free, without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. *So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pound. One thousand pound daily in our one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparation from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our program, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh*-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is a French . . . Yogeśvara: Saying. *Pṛthu*-putra: A French saying that says: "We don't have to kill the cow's milk." Yogeśvara: "The cow who gives milk." *Pṛthu*-putra: The cow who gives milk. Yogeśvara: One should not kill . . . that's a French saying. Prabhupāda: Ah! Yogeśvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow? Yogeśvara: It's a proverb. *Pṛthu*-putra: Proverb. Yogeśvara: Saying. Prabhupāda: Problem? Yogeśvara: Proverb. Prabhupāda: So put into action this proverb. So that is . . . you are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives . . .? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead . . . (break) . . . free of charges. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him. Prabhupāda: So kindly do this service. Kṛṣṇa will bless you. M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . *Prabhupāda: . . . giving to the vultures. Let the flesh*-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs) Yogeśvara: It would ruin the economy. Prabhupāda: Economy? What is that economy? Yogeśvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the Communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good . . . Prabhupāda: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day, forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We recommend the meat*-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't . . . you eat it—after death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right, you eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures. Yogeśvara: Śakuni . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni , yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture*-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animal, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas , and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men they are, leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. Eh? All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first-, second-, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is . . . who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth class, less than fourth class. Fourth class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principle. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principle, just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena . . . (SB 6.1.13). The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama , controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly . . . so the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. *Human life means controlling. I give this example: just like in the . . . in your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animal, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something, "Get out." Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money, so I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principle is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left," "Keep to the right," for . . . this is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere, but he's not criminal, because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately he's criminal. Human society means to abide first*-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life, Freud. What is this Freud? Yogeśvara: Sigmund Freud. Prabhupāda: The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing. Yogeśvara: There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's granddaughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying: "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing. *Prabhupāda: He's ad . . . she's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth*-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing. They are leaders. Then, what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. Nitāi: "Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils." Prabhupāda: Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon, a big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound) " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) That's all. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by . . . that is stated here, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals, that's all, small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now, na yat-karṇa . . . karṇa-pathet, upeta . . .? Nitāi: Upeto . Prabhupāda: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal. Nitāi: Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ. Prabhupāda: Jātu . What is . . .? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport? *Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the levels of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so*-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service . . ." Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street. Bhagavān: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D.'s who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck driver and taxi driver. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class, too, the professors. They're the educated class of people. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not brāhmin . Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmins . Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that, "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. "I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear." We are not asking money that, "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad*-gītā ." We never say so. So those . . . these so-called teachers, they first of all settle up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. A brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money, but I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business. Bhagavān: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly, or else they will be fired and get no salary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras . That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise . . . it is straight commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And because people are killing, they're . . . now they are giving man*-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception . . . at least, outside America nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is their standard? Yogeśvara: (referring to guest) Did he say anything before he left? *Jyotirmayī: Yeah, he said that he was in the . . . he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow*-killing. So he said . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparation. Then, so far meat*-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that, "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow, which is just like mother, if they're even willing to practically kill their parents? Prabhupāda: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that, "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough. They're eating so much beef. Prabhupāda: No, fast, fast . . . fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cow is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take its milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society. Yogeśvara: If they don't kill it, there'll even be more cows. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: . . . there'll be even more cows. *Prabhupāda: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that, "Don't . . ." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the . . . how long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. So where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go*-rakṣya . That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. "Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing," it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows . . . and you see, they're . . . our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows, because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that, "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning. Bhagavān: He gave a proverb. Prabhupāda: Rather, he supported. Bhagavān: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten year, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole humankind. But these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed, amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, " Dung! dung! " and kill you, be kill you. You know. You showed me? Bhagavān: Yeah, French guillotine. *Prabhupāda: You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestant. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child, abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat*-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Where is Nitāi? Bhagavān: They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get born, their mother kills them. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story? Nitāi: The . . .? Prabhupāda: Vyādha . The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Nitāi: Which . . .? *Prabhupāda: This twenty*-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā. Nitāi: No, I don't think it's typed yet. Prabhupāda: What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there. Yogeśvara: Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you . . . mām . . . this meaning, the flesh, in Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating, that this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. He'll be given the opportunity to kill you. And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that, "You are giving your life before Goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, Goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that, "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra , who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra . While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra . The priest will say in the ear that, "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra . Yogeśvara: Māṁ sa . Prabhupāda: Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. Nitāi: That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it . . . she'll type it today or tomorrow. Prabhupāda: There these things are discussed. Yogeśvara: The story of Mṛgāri and . . .? *Prabhupāda: In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat*-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows. Bhagavān: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects . . . *Prabhupāda: How they'll understand, all dull*-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter) Bhagavān: That's intelligent. Jyotirmayī: When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very big actress—she's known all over the world—she's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try. Prabhupāda: This mayor, mayor . . .? This mayor? Yogeśvara: This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her. Bhagavān: What about him? (laughter) Yogeśvara: He is more interested in . . . Prabhupāda: What did he say about himself? *Jyotirmayī: It's when I asked him. I asked him, "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow*-killing?" So he said: "Oh . . . but there is this actress." Just give it . . . gave it to someone else to do. *Prabhupāda: No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). So we must take to agricultural work, to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee , you can start so many restaurants. That I have already . . . I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. You'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is our program. Yogeśvara: We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed? Satsvarūpa: Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole Society. Prabhupāda: Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā . We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachorīs, siṅgāra, purī, halavā and so many other things, jurī , and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the . . . that every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So, so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more. Yogeśvara: Same. Prabhupāda: Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time . . . that's a in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction, charge is the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās . (laughter) Prabhupāda: That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow. Bhagavān: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says: "I want to eat some fruits," "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata . If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop he'll bring one, what is called . . .? Bhagavān: A bowl? Prabhupāda: Bowl, big bowl. Or it is . . . what do you call, where you keep water? Bhagavān: Pot. *Prabhupāda: Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food, they'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin . . . rice was nothing. Rice . . . in our childhood, we have seen, two annas per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one anna . So by giving one- anna *-worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees' cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger . . . one saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama , because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama , and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here," just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama . He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya : "They are my men; *don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog, that's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair, one man has trained—I think most of you have seen—one tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that, "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Ṭhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that, "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. *These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally what is important they do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said, Prabhupāda, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized. Prabhupāda: That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is there. Prabhupāda: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī . We have no such objection. *Yogeśvara: I can remember now, when I was in college there were so many groups trying to reform the young people—the YMCA, the church groups—so many different social*-working groups trying to make young people become more . . . not so restless, not so much wild. But no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy, because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said: "Oh, he's the one, there." Prabhupāda: Is there any other meeting? *Jyotirmayī: Yes, but it will be later. It will be at six*-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming will be a psychiatrist. Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari*-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should I distribute this to the devotees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes. Prabhupāda: Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. (end) (Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature) Jyotirmayī: . . . in France amongst the Communist students, the Communist Indian students. And I said that he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things on the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he became very interested. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Where is Karandhara? Devotee: He's coming. *Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa that, "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram . . . (aside) Read out this. This is the process of peacefulness: when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas , all worlds, and Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (aside) Get the light. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both side. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism. Yogeśvara: In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is, whether it be imperialist, whether it be Communist . . . religious sentiment is found . . . Prabhupāda: What is religious sentiment? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Jyotirmayī: He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and of course there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling now, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now . . . and then he said that . . . Prabhupāda: Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: (to devotees) Do you understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation. *Pṛthu*-putra: Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad-gītā . The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā . Prabhupāda: Who? *Pṛthu*-putra: The Communists and the imperialists. And he said some names . . . Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: Rajagopalacharya. *Jyotirmayī: This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism, you know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. But you find people referring Bhagavad*-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there. Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges. Prabhupāda: So? The Communist does not? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references. Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the Communists that killed them? Prabhupāda: Eh? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the Communists who killed them? Prabhupāda: Communists killed others? Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas . But still they have been arresting forty thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges. Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. Roger Maria: (French) Devotee: What he's trying to say is that some people are using . . . Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now. Prabhupāda: But you cannot think . . . you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: (aside) Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become . . .? Bhagavān: They're calling Africa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure. Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it. Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. Roger Maria: (French) Devotee: (to Prabhupāda while others speak in French) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja. Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good. Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion. Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he says that, "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, the day*-to-day life? What good brings religion in the life?" Yogeśvara: He said: "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion," he says: "the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words." He says: "The important thing is how it is lived, how people live their . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. The practice. It is practiced . . . those who are real religionists, they practice it. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion not only on the individual platform, but on the social platform. Prabhupāda: No, we are teaching. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion. Prabhupāda: No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles. Prabhupāda: What is his experience of religion? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he said that his idea is that advaita*-Vedānta philosophy is the best in the world. Prabhupāda: What is that advaita ? What is that advaita ? Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that advaita*-Vedānta . . . *Prabhupāda: What is that advaita*-veda philosophy? Let him define. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: Advaita . A means "without." Dvaita . . . Prabhupāda: "Without"? *Yogeśvara: "Not." Dvaita means dual. So non*-dual. *Jyotirmayī: Non*-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita . Prabhupāda: So what is that one? Roger Maria: (French) *Yogeśvara: So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non*-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things—there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you. Jyotirmayī: Creator. *Yogeśvara: . . . that there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non*-dual philosophy, is very nice on the political or social level as well, since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything. Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita . So monism, what is the center of monism? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot . . . if you have no objective, then you cannot live in oneness. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: (aside) I'm feeling hot. (indistinct reply by devotee) Yogeśvara: He says . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Yogeśvara: . . . that before . . . he says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for . . . Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti : "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not. Prabhupāda: That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti : "It is not" defining. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: You better translate that one. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that the answer of that is very often come, it doesn't have to come, with a name of God, because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying: "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying: "I'd rather not say that, because that's too mystical." Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti . So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth, then we discuss the other, subordinate things. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: All those other things like political and otherwise are all just details. The first thing, you should have to find the center. (aside) You translate that. Prabhupāda: Neti neti means . . . "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. Roger Maria: (French with devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, guest makes a long speech) Bhagavān: (to devotees) The first thing is, he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he said . . . what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form, because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer. Prabhupāda: Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: Well, he says still we can give it some form for discussion purposes. Prabhupāda: Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: (French translation) He suggests, "Well, in that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is . . ." *Prabhupāda: But he raised that Absolute Truth is non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Tat tvam asi. He's saying: "We are that." *Prabhupāda: So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non*-dualism, neti neti ? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says: "For the time being, let us become silent"? Bhagavān: Yes, he's saying . . . oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying: "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet." Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the point. Bhagavān: He's just saying: "Let's get rid of . . ." (to guest) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet, because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet. *Pṛthu*-putra: Then he said that . . . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride. Bhagavān: The question is, "What is he aiming at?" Prabhupāda: Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: His main point when he quotes Bhagavad*-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just, you know, sentiment, philosophy. It is active. Yogeśvara: Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says:"Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion, which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point." Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā . It is not like that. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you for the work that you are doing, because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people, or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: So I think, if I understood correctly . . . Prabhupāda: I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right. *Pṛthu*-putra: He wasn't appreciating exactly. Bhagavān: Did he appreciate? First of all . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: He wasn't appreciating what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian . . . with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it . . .? Bhagavān: Francend . (name of paper) Jyotirmayī: Franscend . *Pṛthu*-putra: Franscend . He says there is many svāmī and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the Western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be . . . who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or just like some kind of a dream, just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point. *Prabhupāda: But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty*-four hours' engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He thinks that the people in Western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect. Prabhupāda: Very good. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And he says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions. Prabhupāda: Yes. In . . . the idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal, original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the Western religion. Bhagavān: What is that? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the Christian or the Western religion are marked by dogmatists, and they are very . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: And they have imperialist conception. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Yogeśvara: He says that Western religions are narrow*-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have, in India for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion. Prabhupāda: No. First . . . therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we can't say . . . his point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti-yoga , by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga , by action. There's jñāna-yoga , by knowledge. He says if in Western countries we propagate bhakti-yoga , we take the risk of using it, bhakti-yoga , like a drug or something like this, as if you are dreaming or something like that. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Bhakti*-yoga by drugs? *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, he made the statement . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: . . . according to the state of the French people in right now, in this time. Prabhupāda: But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) *Karandhara: What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti*-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practice, they're against bhakti*-yoga . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that bhakti*-yoga's an escape. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jyotirmayī: Bhakti*-yoga brings to escaping one's responsibility. *Prabhupāda: Then he does not know what is bhakti*-yoga . He does not know. Roger Maria: (French) *Prabhupāda: Arjuna did not escape. He was trying to escape, but by bhakti*-yoga he was captured. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the Bhagavad-gītā is a . . . Jyotirmayī: He says it's a work which is very, very practical and rational. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti*-yoga . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that Anu*-gītā is also a very practical work. *Prabhupāda: No Anu*-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti , Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose. Prabhupāda: No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he choose Ramakrishna. He choose all the seigneur . . . Prabhupāda: But they, all of them . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: He reject Aurobindo . . . Prabhupāda: I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Now, this Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way, and it excludes . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. He . . . Yogeśvara: . . . Siddheshvarananda. *Pṛthu*-putra: That's another teacher. *Prabhupāda: No, you cannot . . . if you are referring to Kṛṣṇa, if you are referring to Bhagavad*-gītā , so why don't you take it originally? (break) Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, this is the answer, he says, from Ramakrishna. When you have a thorn in your foot, you take another thorn and you pluck it out, and afterwards, you throw them both away. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā does not say. Bhagavad-gītā says that, "You surrender unto Me, and sustain this." Therefore he has misled. He did not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā , and he misled so many fools. That is his business. One thing is, Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja . And Ramakrishna says that, "You can accept any path." So this is against Bhagavad-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says of the two choices, he likes Ramakrishna's better. Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But if he says that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," why he should be different? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says to accommodate, to accommodate them. *Prabhupāda: No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and Ramakrishna says that, "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said . . . his name was Gadadhar Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion: how to live. He says the interpretation is not so . . . Prabhupāda: But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: I think one . . . if I've understood, he's insisting on one point, that is that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the *Gītā* in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public. Prabhupāda: Who is that public? Amongst you, who accept Ramakrishna? *Pṛthu*-putra: He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time . . . *Karandhara: Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad*-gītā , but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization? Bhagavān: He said . . . and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was . . . Karandhara: Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people. Prabhupāda: No. Karandhara: What mass? Prabhupāda: That is false. Karandhara: Ramakrishna's popular in the West because of his skillful propaganda . . . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, "Well, in a sense, we have to accept that Ramakrishna was expressing the sentiments of the public because he lived amongst the public." Prabhupāda: No, that is his false understanding. Karandhara: Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler . . . Hitler lived amongst the public too, and he was a . . . Prabhupāda: No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousand, twenty thousand people, every day come to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belur Math, or somewhere else—nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousand, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the Western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridwar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea that it is for the mass, it is false. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he was talking about the time of Ramakrishna, when Ramakrishna was there . . . Prabhupāda: That, everything, bubble comes and goes away. It is no meaning. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says numbers aren't really very important. It's like a . . . Jyotirmayī: It's not a proof. Yogeśvara: It's not a proof, just numbers. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says but that's not a proof, just to say that there are greater numbers. Karandhara: He was trying to submit it as a proof just a minute ago. Prabhupāda: Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says: "Mass of people," and again he says: "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now . . . now we have to . . . he was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved: they're not, the mass of people, not at all interested . . . that I have proved. That is my answer. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna. Prabhupāda: What is the mass of people mean? Yogeśvara: He says Ramakrishna, whether he knew it or not, he was expressing a sentiment of the people at that time. Prabhupāda: At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's . . . Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's not the person important in this example; it's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there. Prabhupāda: Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted. Karandhara: No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time. Prabhupāda: So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. And that will not appeal. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument, because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume, a synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform . . . the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people. Prabhupāda: The people's representative is different from God's representative. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, "Well, that's a belief. You have to believe that." He said that's only a belief. Prabhupāda: No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that that's dangerous, because then we run the risk of having people who say: "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God," and they're actually only interested personal, private interest. Prabhupāda: No, if . . . if people . . . not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that, "You all not giving God's opinion"? God said, Kṛṣṇa said that, "You surrender to Me," and if I say that, "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence, we must stick to the words of God without interpreting. (aside) Is that what he said? Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. That we want. Bhagavān: (to translators) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. Prabhupāda: If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is some deviation, some interpretation by some philosophers or sages. They deviate . . . Prabhupāda: One who deviates is not a sage; he's a thief. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yeah, it's what he says. I'm just translating his words. Prabhupāda: No, if he deviates from the words of God, then he is not a sage. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, well, the thing that he appreciates in Hinduism is its openness and its tolerance to so many different paths and so many different interpretations. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But to abide by the orders of God, that is another thing. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says then we've made the full turn again. We've come back to the beginning. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He said so we've actually come back to the beginning of our discussion again, which is that real religion has to be judged by the actions of men. Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can judge. Here is the action of the men. Now the young men and boys and girls are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And who is taking to Ramakrishna? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: So he is a man of action, and here we have a movement of action which is solving all problems of the world. What's his complaint? It's not a dream. It's actually by following this movement, we're solving all problems. So what does he have to say? If he follows exactly what Kṛṣṇa says, then all the problems will be solved. So why doesn't he follow what Kṛṣṇa says? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He received information. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pṛthu*-putra: He received information that to follow, with some interest, that to follow what Kṛṣṇa says and like that, we can solve problems. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And personally, he respects you. *Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's all right. But thing is that we must know that he has spoken about Ramakrishna and Aurobindo. They also center their propaganda on Kṛṣṇa. Just like I already told, Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." That means he takes to Kṛṣṇa. Aurobindo, he has written Life Divine. That is his explanation of Bhagavad*-gītā . He takes to Kṛṣṇa. This Maharishi, he has also presented Bhagavad-gītā; he's taken to Kṛṣṇa. So their importance is by taking to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, they are valueless, nobody. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for him, that's not really a problem. He says rather than referring to the person Kṛṣṇa, he just goes directly to the teaching of the *Gītā* , and he profits from that. *Prabhupāda: No, teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. Roger Maria: (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So his point is that, well, ultimately the . . . now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? What did he . . .? Why he come here? What for? Yogeśvara: We invited him. (laughter) Roger Maria: (French) *Devotee: Well, at the end of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: He says: "Give up all this religiousness and surrender to Me." The whole purport of the Bhagavad*-gītā . He's telling Arjuna to fight, but ultimately, in the end, He's saying: "Just forget about all these ideas you have in your head, and surrender to Me." Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: "Me" means Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Right. Prabhupāda: So then Kṛṣṇa is everything. Devotee: Mām ekam. *Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." So anyone who has studied Bhagavad*-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he accepts that as being . . . he says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions. Prabhupāda: But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas . Bhagavān: This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. *Prabhupāda: India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācārya . Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam . So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas . Anyone you'll find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya . So all the ācārya accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says all the Christian and all the priest, that they tell to him from . . . that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says no. Yogeśvara: Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it. Karandhara: The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they . . . it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify. Yogeśvara: And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem. Prabhupāda: Now . . . now, what is his problem? That he did never disclose. Yogeśvara: Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live. Prabhupāda: So he has got his opinion; I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be solved. Does he agree? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence . . ." Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: So . . . Yogeśvara: So he says: "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion, just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says: "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work." Prabhupāda: No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: But what practical thing is he doing? *Pṛthu*-putra: What he says, what he says . . . he's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel. Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad*-gītā , and people are very, very interested. *Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad*-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: What is that? *Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad*-gītā or presents Bhagavad-gītā to people, he doesn't tell them that, "This is the word of God, and you just have to accept it." *Prabhupāda: That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad*-gītā . That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he says that he thinks the same about us, that we are also not understanding perfectly Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Then let him understand from us. Yogeśvara: No, he says he thinks that we don't understand. Bhagavān: (simultaneously with Yogeśvara) He thinks that we don't understand. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says that he thinks that we have not perfectly understood. Prabhupāda: So let us discuss who understands—you or me. So who will decide? You are understanding or I am understanding—who'll decide? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Who will decide it? *Bhagavān: So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want? Prabhupāda: Religious problem—any problem. Bhagavān: No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: Now, this question . . . listen. Our Bhagavān dāsa says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better? Bhagavān: And anyone who joins us loses all his problems. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says then that's very serious, because if you have no problems, that means you are trying to escape from the world, because there world is full of problems. Prabhupāda: We are in the Paris City. How we have escaped from the world? (laughter) We have got branches in London, in Paris, in New York and big, big cities, and all these boys are coming from big, big cities. How they have escaped? It is not justice. If you says that, "They have escaped," that is wrong statement. We are not escaping anything. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: What kind of proof are you looking for? Let's talk about proof. What kind of proof are you looking for? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Now, another point is, he's accusing us that we're escaping. Why he's escaping Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he thinks that what we're doing is simply a kind of medicine that doesn't actually resolve the problems that people are facing. Prabhupāda: If it is not result, then how this boy says: "We have no problem"? The patient says that he has cured, and you say that it is not curing? Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: (to translators) So repeat to Prabhupāda what he said. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: We have proof that anyone from any part of the world who takes to this process loses his problems. It's not a matter of Western or Eastern. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: With your permission, he would like to take leave. Prabhupāda: Why? He should stay with us. Let us conclude. Why you are flying away? We have started one discussion. Let it be finished. Why you are going away? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: That means he is escaping. Yogeśvara: He says because he works in the evenings. He's a theater critic. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Some way or other, he's escaping. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: A man . . . Yogeśvara: With pleasure, he would like to come back to finish the discussion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: And with friendship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. That's it. Don't escape. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: When we have begun the discussion, let us finish. Don't escape. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Haribol. Jaya. Thank you. Bhagavān: Make sure he has some more prasādam before he goes. Jyotirmayī: I'll bring it. (guest leaves) Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm, open. Paramahaṁsa: (to devotees outside room) . . . Prabhupāda is very tired. He's just finished a long evening. Prabhupāda: So when there is discussion, you should all be present. It is very interesting. Those who are our men, GBC men, they must know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They come in like Keśī demon, and they go out with prasādam in their mouth. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They are escaping. We are not escaping. We want to capture everyone. (laughter) He has no clear idea what is the aim of life. Yogeśvara: He likes to see people engaged in work that is humanitarian, that will resolve the problems of the world. Prabhupāda: That everyone says. All rascals says like that, "humanitarian." He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or Communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and Communist. This is their humanitarian work. *Devotee: He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad*-gītā in a certain way, like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is . . . Prabhupāda: Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: They're trying to interpret that Kṛṣṇa is just our own intelligence or . . . Bhagavān: The point is even when they see the practical proof, they don't accept it. They're so stubborn. Prabhupāda: You be strong. Don't be . . . they cannot conquer us. But you be more strong. (end) (Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature) Jyotirmayī: . . . in France amongst the Communist students, the Communist Indian students. And I said that he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things on the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he became very interested. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Where is Karandhara? Devotee: He's coming. *Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa that, "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram . . . (aside) Read out this. This is the process of peacefulness: when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas , all worlds, and Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (aside) Get the light. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both side. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism. Yogeśvara: In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is, whether it be imperialist, whether it be Communist . . . religious sentiment is found . . . Prabhupāda: What is religious sentiment? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Jyotirmayī: He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and of course there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling now, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now . . . and then he said that . . . Prabhupāda: Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: (to devotees) Do you understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation. *Pṛthu*-putra: Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad-gītā . The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā . Prabhupāda: Who? *Pṛthu*-putra: The Communists and the imperialists. And he said some names . . . Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: Rajagopalacharya. *Jyotirmayī: This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism, you know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. But you find people referring Bhagavad*-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there. Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges. Prabhupāda: So? The Communist does not? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references. Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the Communists that killed them? Prabhupāda: Eh? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the Communists who killed them? Prabhupāda: Communists killed others? Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas . But still they have been arresting forty thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges. Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. Roger Maria: (French) Devotee: What he's trying to say is that some people are using . . . Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now. Prabhupāda: But you cannot think . . . you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: (aside) Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become . . .? Bhagavān: They're calling Africa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure. Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it. Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. Roger Maria: (French) Devotee: (to Prabhupāda while others speak in French) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja. Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good. Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion. Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he says that, "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, the day*-to-day life? What good brings religion in the life?" Yogeśvara: He said: "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion," he says: "the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words." He says: "The important thing is how it is lived, how people live their . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. The practice. It is practiced . . . those who are real religionists, they practice it. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion not only on the individual platform, but on the social platform. Prabhupāda: No, we are teaching. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion. Prabhupāda: No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles. Prabhupāda: What is his experience of religion? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he said that his idea is that advaita*-Vedānta philosophy is the best in the world. Prabhupāda: What is that advaita ? What is that advaita ? Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that advaita*-Vedānta . . . *Prabhupāda: What is that advaita*-veda philosophy? Let him define. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: Advaita . A means "without." Dvaita . . . Prabhupāda: "Without"? *Yogeśvara: "Not." Dvaita means dual. So non*-dual. *Jyotirmayī: Non*-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita . Prabhupāda: So what is that one? Roger Maria: (French) *Yogeśvara: So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non*-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things—there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you. Jyotirmayī: Creator. *Yogeśvara: . . . that there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non*-dual philosophy, is very nice on the political or social level as well, since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything. Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita . So monism, what is the center of monism? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot . . . if you have no objective, then you cannot live in oneness. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: (aside) I'm feeling hot. (indistinct reply by devotee) Yogeśvara: He says . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Yogeśvara: . . . that before . . . he says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for . . . Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti : "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not. Prabhupāda: That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti : "It is not" defining. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: You better translate that one. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that the answer of that is very often come, it doesn't have to come, with a name of God, because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying: "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying: "I'd rather not say that, because that's too mystical." Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti . So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth, then we discuss the other, subordinate things. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: All those other things like political and otherwise are all just details. The first thing, you should have to find the center. (aside) You translate that. Prabhupāda: Neti neti means . . . "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. Roger Maria: (French with devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, guest makes a long speech) Bhagavān: (to devotees) The first thing is, he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he said . . . what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form, because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer. Prabhupāda: Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: Well, he says still we can give it some form for discussion purposes. Prabhupāda: Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: (French translation) He suggests, "Well, in that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is . . ." *Prabhupāda: But he raised that Absolute Truth is non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Tat tvam asi. He's saying: "We are that." *Prabhupāda: So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non*-dualism, neti neti ? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says: "For the time being, let us become silent"? Bhagavān: Yes, he's saying . . . oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying: "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet." Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the point. Bhagavān: He's just saying: "Let's get rid of . . ." (to guest) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet, because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet. *Pṛthu*-putra: Then he said that . . . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride. Bhagavān: The question is, "What is he aiming at?" Prabhupāda: Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: His main point when he quotes Bhagavad*-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just, you know, sentiment, philosophy. It is active. Yogeśvara: Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says:"Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion, which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point." Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā . It is not like that. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you for the work that you are doing, because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people, or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: So I think, if I understood correctly . . . Prabhupāda: I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right. *Pṛthu*-putra: He wasn't appreciating exactly. Bhagavān: Did he appreciate? First of all . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: He wasn't appreciating what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian . . . with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it . . .? Bhagavān: Francend . (name of paper) Jyotirmayī: Franscend . *Pṛthu*-putra: Franscend . He says there is many svāmī and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the Western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be . . . who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or just like some kind of a dream, just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point. *Prabhupāda: But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty*-four hours' engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He thinks that the people in Western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect. Prabhupāda: Very good. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And he says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions. Prabhupāda: Yes. In . . . the idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal, original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the Western religion. Bhagavān: What is that? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the Christian or the Western religion are marked by dogmatists, and they are very . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: And they have imperialist conception. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Yogeśvara: He says that Western religions are narrow*-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have, in India for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion. Prabhupāda: No. First . . . therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we can't say . . . his point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti-yoga , by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga , by action. There's jñāna-yoga , by knowledge. He says if in Western countries we propagate bhakti-yoga , we take the risk of using it, bhakti-yoga , like a drug or something like this, as if you are dreaming or something like that. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Bhakti*-yoga by drugs? *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, he made the statement . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: . . . according to the state of the French people in right now, in this time. Prabhupāda: But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) *Karandhara: What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti*-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practice, they're against bhakti*-yoga . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that bhakti*-yoga's an escape. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jyotirmayī: Bhakti*-yoga brings to escaping one's responsibility. *Prabhupāda: Then he does not know what is bhakti*-yoga . He does not know. Roger Maria: (French) *Prabhupāda: Arjuna did not escape. He was trying to escape, but by bhakti*-yoga he was captured. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the Bhagavad-gītā is a . . . Jyotirmayī: He says it's a work which is very, very practical and rational. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti*-yoga . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that Anu*-gītā is also a very practical work. *Prabhupāda: No Anu*-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti , Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose. Prabhupāda: No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he choose Ramakrishna. He choose all the seigneur . . . Prabhupāda: But they, all of them . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: He reject Aurobindo . . . Prabhupāda: I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Now, this Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way, and it excludes . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. He . . . Yogeśvara: . . . Siddheshvarananda. *Pṛthu*-putra: That's another teacher. *Prabhupāda: No, you cannot . . . if you are referring to Kṛṣṇa, if you are referring to Bhagavad*-gītā , so why don't you take it originally? (break) Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, this is the answer, he says, from Ramakrishna. When you have a thorn in your foot, you take another thorn and you pluck it out, and afterwards, you throw them both away. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā does not say. Bhagavad-gītā says that, "You surrender unto Me, and sustain this." Therefore he has misled. He did not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā , and he misled so many fools. That is his business. One thing is, Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja . And Ramakrishna says that, "You can accept any path." So this is against Bhagavad-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says of the two choices, he likes Ramakrishna's better. Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But if he says that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," why he should be different? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says to accommodate, to accommodate them. *Prabhupāda: No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and Ramakrishna says that, "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said . . . his name was Gadadhar Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion: how to live. He says the interpretation is not so . . . Prabhupāda: But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: I think one . . . if I've understood, he's insisting on one point, that is that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the *Gītā* in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public. Prabhupāda: Who is that public? Amongst you, who accept Ramakrishna? *Pṛthu*-putra: He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time . . . *Karandhara: Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad*-gītā , but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization? Bhagavān: He said . . . and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was . . . Karandhara: Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people. Prabhupāda: No. Karandhara: What mass? Prabhupāda: That is false. Karandhara: Ramakrishna's popular in the West because of his skillful propaganda . . . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, "Well, in a sense, we have to accept that Ramakrishna was expressing the sentiments of the public because he lived amongst the public." Prabhupāda: No, that is his false understanding. Karandhara: Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler . . . Hitler lived amongst the public too, and he was a . . . Prabhupāda: No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousand, twenty thousand people, every day come to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belur Math, or somewhere else—nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousand, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the Western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridwar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea that it is for the mass, it is false. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he was talking about the time of Ramakrishna, when Ramakrishna was there . . . Prabhupāda: That, everything, bubble comes and goes away. It is no meaning. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says numbers aren't really very important. It's like a . . . Jyotirmayī: It's not a proof. Yogeśvara: It's not a proof, just numbers. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says but that's not a proof, just to say that there are greater numbers. Karandhara: He was trying to submit it as a proof just a minute ago. Prabhupāda: Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says: "Mass of people," and again he says: "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now . . . now we have to . . . he was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved: they're not, the mass of people, not at all interested . . . that I have proved. That is my answer. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna. Prabhupāda: What is the mass of people mean? Yogeśvara: He says Ramakrishna, whether he knew it or not, he was expressing a sentiment of the people at that time. Prabhupāda: At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's . . . Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's not the person important in this example; it's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there. Prabhupāda: Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted. Karandhara: No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time. Prabhupāda: So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. And that will not appeal. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument, because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume, a synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform . . . the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people. Prabhupāda: The people's representative is different from God's representative. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, "Well, that's a belief. You have to believe that." He said that's only a belief. Prabhupāda: No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that that's dangerous, because then we run the risk of having people who say: "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God," and they're actually only interested personal, private interest. Prabhupāda: No, if . . . if people . . . not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that, "You all not giving God's opinion"? God said, Kṛṣṇa said that, "You surrender to Me," and if I say that, "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence, we must stick to the words of God without interpreting. (aside) Is that what he said? Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. That we want. Bhagavān: (to translators) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. Prabhupāda: If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is some deviation, some interpretation by some philosophers or sages. They deviate . . . Prabhupāda: One who deviates is not a sage; he's a thief. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yeah, it's what he says. I'm just translating his words. Prabhupāda: No, if he deviates from the words of God, then he is not a sage. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, well, the thing that he appreciates in Hinduism is its openness and its tolerance to so many different paths and so many different interpretations. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But to abide by the orders of God, that is another thing. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says then we've made the full turn again. We've come back to the beginning. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He said so we've actually come back to the beginning of our discussion again, which is that real religion has to be judged by the actions of men. Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can judge. Here is the action of the men. Now the young men and boys and girls are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And who is taking to Ramakrishna? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: So he is a man of action, and here we have a movement of action which is solving all problems of the world. What's his complaint? It's not a dream. It's actually by following this movement, we're solving all problems. So what does he have to say? If he follows exactly what Kṛṣṇa says, then all the problems will be solved. So why doesn't he follow what Kṛṣṇa says? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He received information. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pṛthu*-putra: He received information that to follow, with some interest, that to follow what Kṛṣṇa says and like that, we can solve problems. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And personally, he respects you. *Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's all right. But thing is that we must know that he has spoken about Ramakrishna and Aurobindo. They also center their propaganda on Kṛṣṇa. Just like I already told, Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." That means he takes to Kṛṣṇa. Aurobindo, he has written Life Divine. That is his explanation of Bhagavad*-gītā . He takes to Kṛṣṇa. This Maharishi, he has also presented Bhagavad-gītā; he's taken to Kṛṣṇa. So their importance is by taking to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, they are valueless, nobody. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for him, that's not really a problem. He says rather than referring to the person Kṛṣṇa, he just goes directly to the teaching of the *Gītā* , and he profits from that. *Prabhupāda: No, teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. Roger Maria: (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So his point is that, well, ultimately the . . . now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? What did he . . .? Why he come here? What for? Yogeśvara: We invited him. (laughter) Roger Maria: (French) *Devotee: Well, at the end of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: He says: "Give up all this religiousness and surrender to Me." The whole purport of the Bhagavad*-gītā . He's telling Arjuna to fight, but ultimately, in the end, He's saying: "Just forget about all these ideas you have in your head, and surrender to Me." Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: "Me" means Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Right. Prabhupāda: So then Kṛṣṇa is everything. Devotee: Mām ekam. *Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." So anyone who has studied Bhagavad*-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he accepts that as being . . . he says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions. Prabhupāda: But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas . Bhagavān: This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. *Prabhupāda: India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācārya . Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam . So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas . Anyone you'll find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya . So all the ācārya accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says all the Christian and all the priest, that they tell to him from . . . that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says no. Yogeśvara: Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it. Karandhara: The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they . . . it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify. Yogeśvara: And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem. Prabhupāda: Now . . . now, what is his problem? That he did never disclose. Yogeśvara: Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live. Prabhupāda: So he has got his opinion; I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be solved. Does he agree? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence . . ." Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: So . . . Yogeśvara: So he says: "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion, just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says: "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work." Prabhupāda: No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: But what practical thing is he doing? *Pṛthu*-putra: What he says, what he says . . . he's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel. Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad*-gītā , and people are very, very interested. *Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad*-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: What is that? *Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad*-gītā or presents Bhagavad-gītā to people, he doesn't tell them that, "This is the word of God, and you just have to accept it." *Prabhupāda: That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad*-gītā . That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he says that he thinks the same about us, that we are also not understanding perfectly Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Then let him understand from us. Yogeśvara: No, he says he thinks that we don't understand. Bhagavān: (simultaneously with Yogeśvara) He thinks that we don't understand. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says that he thinks that we have not perfectly understood. Prabhupāda: So let us discuss who understands—you or me. So who will decide? You are understanding or I am understanding—who'll decide? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Who will decide it? *Bhagavān: So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want? Prabhupāda: Religious problem—any problem. Bhagavān: No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: Now, this question . . . listen. Our Bhagavān dāsa says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better? Bhagavān: And anyone who joins us loses all his problems. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says then that's very serious, because if you have no problems, that means you are trying to escape from the world, because there world is full of problems. Prabhupāda: We are in the Paris City. How we have escaped from the world? (laughter) We have got branches in London, in Paris, in New York and big, big cities, and all these boys are coming from big, big cities. How they have escaped? It is not justice. If you says that, "They have escaped," that is wrong statement. We are not escaping anything. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: What kind of proof are you looking for? Let's talk about proof. What kind of proof are you looking for? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Now, another point is, he's accusing us that we're escaping. Why he's escaping Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he thinks that what we're doing is simply a kind of medicine that doesn't actually resolve the problems that people are facing. Prabhupāda: If it is not result, then how this boy says: "We have no problem"? The patient says that he has cured, and you say that it is not curing? Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: (to translators) So repeat to Prabhupāda what he said. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: We have proof that anyone from any part of the world who takes to this process loses his problems. It's not a matter of Western or Eastern. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: With your permission, he would like to take leave. Prabhupāda: Why? He should stay with us. Let us conclude. Why you are flying away? We have started one discussion. Let it be finished. Why you are going away? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: That means he is escaping. Yogeśvara: He says because he works in the evenings. He's a theater critic. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Some way or other, he's escaping. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: A man . . . Yogeśvara: With pleasure, he would like to come back to finish the discussion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: And with friendship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. That's it. Don't escape. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: When we have begun the discussion, let us finish. Don't escape. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Haribol. Jaya. Thank you. Bhagavān: Make sure he has some more prasādam before he goes. Jyotirmayī: I'll bring it. (guest leaves) Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm, open. Paramahaṁsa: (to devotees outside room) . . . Prabhupāda is very tired. He's just finished a long evening. Prabhupāda: So when there is discussion, you should all be present. It is very interesting. Those who are our men, GBC men, they must know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They come in like Keśī demon, and they go out with prasādam in their mouth. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They are escaping. We are not escaping. We want to capture everyone. (laughter) He has no clear idea what is the aim of life. Yogeśvara: He likes to see people engaged in work that is humanitarian, that will resolve the problems of the world. Prabhupāda: That everyone says. All rascals says like that, "humanitarian." He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or Communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and Communist. This is their humanitarian work. *Devotee: He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad*-gītā in a certain way, like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is . . . Prabhupāda: Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: They're trying to interpret that Kṛṣṇa is just our own intelligence or . . . Bhagavān: The point is even when they see the practical proof, they don't accept it. They're so stubborn. Prabhupāda: You be strong. Don't be . . . they cannot conquer us. But you be more strong. (end) (Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru's) M. Deshimaru: (French) (translating for M. Deshimaru throughout) Yogeśvara: He thinks that . . . he suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (Prabhupada's comments translated throughout by Yogeśvara) M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "This force is the soul." Prabhupāda: Yes. So soul is a person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He's confused, how? What do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person. Prabhupāda: Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person. Yogeśvara: His question is—well how is it that the soul is also a person? Prabhupāda: Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference—that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one. Prabhupāda: Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat: it is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, well, to . . . he doesn't see the application. He says if we're just . . . Prabhupāda: Why not application? Why not application? Yogeśvara: He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not. Prabhupāda: Because he has got different dress, different person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: So he's asking: Well, therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering? Prabhupāda: That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all . . . just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (aside) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it. *Pṛthu*-putra: (correcting Yogeśvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. "If you receive an arrows." You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body, because that's the cause of suffering . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks? Satsvarūpa: I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man, Bhagavān dāsa? These important talks going on and you do not . . . you think that you have learned everything. What is this? Yogeśvara: This young gentleman's question is: If you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it. Prabhupāda: No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows. Yogeśvara: That is his point also. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self. Prabhupāda: Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes, he must understand that he is crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. He must know . . . he may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate. *Pṛthu*-putra: His point . . . he says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity . . . Prabhupāda: So the insanity is just like you are dressed, and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance. Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese," "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body, he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: They believe that the soul and the body is one thing. Prabhupāda: How it is one? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated. Prabhupāda: How the man becomes dead? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force. Yogeśvara: Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth. Prabhupāda: Merges? Yogeśvara: Just like a flower grows from the earth . . . Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies . . . (break) M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer. Prabhupāda: Zen philosophy answer? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything. Prabhupāda: And what you are now? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: And now he is himself. Now he is different. Prabhupāda: So how you became from zero? *Pṛthu*-putra: No, he don't say he is different. He says: "Now I am myself." (French with guest) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same. Prabhupāda: Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the man is there. The suffering is there. Prabhupāda: No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero beginning, and he will be zero, and now he is also zero. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect, everything is zero. But there is another aspect—there is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem. Prabhupāda: Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter) Karandhara: Just dying, that solves all the problems. Prabhupāda: No, he said that is natural. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says religious life is a very deep thing on man, and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it don't matter. He has to search. Prabhupāda: No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says actually he doesn't start from zero; he starts from this cosmic force. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force. Prabhupāda: That means . . . you cannot define, that means your knowledge is imperfect. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down . . . Yogeśvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. He says a human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force. Prabhupāda: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease: unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. M. Deshimaru: (French with Yogeśvara) *Yogeśvara: (to Pṛthu*-putra) Maybe you can translate that. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says one thing—we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . what is the cause of the suffering? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself. Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge. Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? M. Deshimaru: (French with Yogeśvara) Yogeśvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate, because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant. Prabhupāda: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this knowledge is there anywhere, for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested. Prabhupāda: No, why . . .? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance. Prabhupāda: What is that something? Do you know it? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He called this things God. That is God. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Well, all right, that's okay. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering." Prabhupāda: Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says but you are suffering still. Prabhupāda: I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question. Prabhupāda: No, we are not choosing. God is asking to do this. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result. Prabhupāda: No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside to devotee) Go. Take sleep. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? Why doesn't everyone just kill themselves? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says from the medical point, that's all right. But from the religious point . . . Prabhupāda: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life . . . Prabhupāda: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy. Karandhara: But . . . Prabhupāda: Real. The premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens. Prabhupāda: That is also desire, to give up all desire. Karandhara: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: That is also desire M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori , without anything, then he is practicing the satori . Prabhupāda: Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles) Karandhara: No point. It's ambiguous. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) *Pṛthu*-putra: For himself it's just to practice zazen , to meditate on Zen. Prabhupāda: That is also desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that; we would like to know God, or something like that. But by practicing zazen , we . . . finally the goal, we just come to the point, we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen . Prabhupāda: Then what is that position of no desire? Karandhara: The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again, without any self. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force. Bhagavān: Does that harmony means to merge? Prabhupāda: Now let me explain. Suppose a material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, "So then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal . . ." Prabhupāda: But I mean to say, what result you will get more than the cats and dogs? Karandhara: Why practice? M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: What happens to the cat and the dog in the end? Karandhara: Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, and the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness. Prabhupāda: Then they have to accept good work and bad work. Karandhara: Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul, or the self, takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy . . . *Prabhupāda: That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Śūnyam means you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ( CC Madhya 19.167). But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu . . . you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self . . . Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam , to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished? No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. M. Deshimaru: (French) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As soon as one realizes he is spirit soul, then there is no more suffering. Karandhara: Their point is they come . . . Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire. Karandhara: Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire. Prabhupāda: So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. It is something like this—just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievouslessness. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievouslessness, that he does not know. *M. Deshimaru: (French with Pṛthu*-putra) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire. Karandhara: No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say "spiritual," then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire. When we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material. Prabhupāda: Purified, purified. Yogeśvara: Purified desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: Prabhupāda says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite, but it's pure desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but . . . Prabhupāda: Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material. Prabhupāda: No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease, he is also lying down, he is also eating, he is also passing stool. And if he is informed that, "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again . . .?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured." Karandhara: Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy. Prabhupāda: That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are . . . together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal. Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge that although . . . just like here is my leg and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand. Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain . . . Prabhupāda: Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As I prick the nail cutter here, oh that, "Oooooh!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand? *Pṛthu*-putra: The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material. Prabhupāda: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees as they try to explain) Karandhara: It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness, is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many, many things afterwards. Prabhupāda: Yes, soul has a form. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking is the form of the soul material? Prabhupāda: No, spiritual. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form. Prabhupāda: Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards . . . they get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't . . . they don't have the next step, or the spiritual. Prabhupāda: No understanding of the spiritual. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter. Karandhara: What that means . . . that's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything, because everything is everything. Yogeśvara: There's no discrimination. Karandhara: Yes, there's no self. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one. Prabhupāda: Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says yes, for sure, we all die. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says but the goal . . . Prabhupāda: Has the dead man has any daily life? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin. Prabhupāda: That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles) Karandhara: No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know that we are going to be . . . that we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Pṛthu*-putra: What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life. Bhagavān: So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too. Bhagavān: Are you a demon? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: As we want. Prabhupāda: No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal killing. So he wanted to stop this animal killing. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message. Karandhara: Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind; that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else. Prabhupāda: At least he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha. Karandhara: They don't have the same historical . . . I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself for a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history, as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha . Prabhupāda: No, no, buddha , actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the . . .? Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started . . . *Prabhupāda: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, "knowledge." Budhā bhāva*-saman . . . (break) M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in a hermitage. Zen . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa . Finish everything. Karandhara: Yes. Zen allows a man . . . according to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results. Prabhupāda: So that is our philosophy. We . . . Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: What is the use of practice? If you practice or you don't practice, you still get the same result. Prabhupāda: No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice. Karandhara: What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes. Bhagavān: The problem is still death, though. The problem is still death. Prabhupāda: No, practice without any aim . . . Karandhara: Well they say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim? *Pṛthu*-putra: When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen , his concept of Buddha, is that disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice. Prabhupāda: No, if he says that, "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says zazen is in himself; the satori is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori , but the satori is going automatically with the practice. Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense, "Goal is without goal"? Then what is this? These are vague terms. Karandhara: It's like saying nothing is true. But then that's a truism. Prabhupāda: It is darkness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to become minus. Prabhupāda: But he is plus always. No, if you have no goal . . . there is example—"Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes . . . if the . . . (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster. Karandhara: Well, they have an aim, but the aim is . . . because they haven't . . . Prabhupāda: That you say they have got, he does not say. You say. Karandhara: No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception. Prabhupāda: So without aim, what is the use of practice? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Yogeśvara: He agrees, but he prefers his non*-goal . . . (indistinct) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Without goal practicing something, it is foolishness. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know what is that goal. He does not know what is that goal. *Karandhara: Well, he says the goal is to become goal*-less. *Prabhupāda: We give the goal . . . we give the goal, yajñārthe. Yajñārthe karma . We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajña*-puruṣa . We know the goal. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says: "Who is Viṣṇu?" Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is God. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And how we can satisfy God? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from me. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says yes. *Prabhupāda: "Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically, then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is . . . the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life. The aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf . . . the suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life, that's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation, he does not know where is the bead? On the . . . there is a bead. Just see. Karandhara: On the heater there's someone's beads. Prabhupāda: So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is? Bhagavān: It is mine. Prabhupāda: You are so forgetful? Bhagavān: No, I was looking for them. Prabhupāda: Why? Why did you . . .? Bhagavān: I left them on your bathroom door, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution if you do not know what is the real goal. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal. He says the real goal, the real things . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. You have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child: he does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind followers. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says: "Who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?" Yogeśvara: Who can judge? Prabhupāda: But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority? Yogeśvara: How can we tell a real authority? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority. Prabhupāda: This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know . . . therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead. So you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand. Karandhara: No, what he's saying is, what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper? Prabhupāda: So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim that, "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavān was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say: "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that, "I have no problem," "So let me act like him." When he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps. Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material . . . that is no spiritual life. (aside) Find out this verse, yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: . . . sama*-duḥkha-sama . . . hmm? Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Y-a-m, yam. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete . . . Prabhupāda: Ete , yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 2.15. Prabhupāda: Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) Prabhupāda: Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up. That is the position of fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) *Pṛthu*-putra: He's all right with this point. He agree with this point. Prabhupāda: He will agree with all the points, provided he is fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: Not after death; in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time. Prabhupāda: Not each time. Just like our devotees: they come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice, he becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, he is not agitated. Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham . What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it the same verse? Prabhupāda: Same verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram. Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram , "unaltered in distress or happiness." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says so we then just have to practice now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be . . . M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's very simple. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that, "I am not this body." Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that, "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple living . . . you are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt you are a living force? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: No, he has no doubt. Prabhupāda: Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual, I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress. Bhagavān: Then we can ask, "What is that great?" Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing. You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means He has insufficient . . . er, more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He understand the point. Prabhupāda: Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand, just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and you are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says "nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child, he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot , or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot . And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Prabhupāda: So, so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ . (laughs) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). His knowledge is lost. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." *(Pṛthu*-putra translates) Prabhupāda: So narādhama means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation. Yogeśvara: Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing. Prabhupāda: But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: But you are a fool. "In your own way" means foolish way. You do not know. M. Deshimaru: (French, saying he understands the analogy but not what it's meant to prove) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way, in this universe there is a greater, spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness. M. Deshimaru: But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The point is that body and soul are two things. M. Deshimaru: I think it is same thing. Prabhupāda: You think, but how you can prove? M. Deshimaru: How you can prove that the body . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone . . . Yogeśvara: He's asking how can we prove our point? Prabhupāda: Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know how we can prove the body . . . M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead." Karandhara: No, but at the time of death the body is still there. The body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same; something's is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body? Prabhupāda: How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells. Scientific explanation. Prabhupāda: So why don't you . . . if you know that, then replace that cell. Karandhara: The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is. M. Deshimaru: They cannot know also what life is. Karandhara: They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body. M. Deshimaru: But the death is . . . you can change also what you say. Prabhupāda: How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: No, he says that the living force and the body is the same. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: Why the body is no more moving? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: Is just what he says. He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma . Prabhupāda: Is the karma . *Pṛthu*-putra: The karma . What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the still, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: "Because the nerves are just cut." Prabhupāda: No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness? His question is very intelligent. M. Deshimaru: Because the hand is cut. Prabhupāda: But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness? Karandhara: It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same. Prabhupāda: You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. M. Deshimaru: (French) Devotee: And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death? Prabhupāda: No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, it can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead. Devotee: That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death? Prabhupāda: That he does not know, he cannot explain. Devotee: Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Take it. Make arrangement with him. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Devotees: (indistinct background comments) (break) (end) (Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru's) M. Deshimaru: (French) (translating for M. Deshimaru throughout) Yogeśvara: He thinks that . . . he suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (Prabhupada's comments translated throughout by Yogeśvara) M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "This force is the soul." Prabhupāda: Yes. So soul is a person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He's confused, how? What do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person. Prabhupāda: Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person. Yogeśvara: His question is—well how is it that the soul is also a person? Prabhupāda: Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference—that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one. Prabhupāda: Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat: it is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, well, to . . . he doesn't see the application. He says if we're just . . . Prabhupāda: Why not application? Why not application? Yogeśvara: He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not. Prabhupāda: Because he has got different dress, different person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: So he's asking: Well, therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering? Prabhupāda: That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all . . . just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (aside) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it. *Pṛthu*-putra: (correcting Yogeśvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. "If you receive an arrows." You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body, because that's the cause of suffering . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks? Satsvarūpa: I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man, Bhagavān dāsa? These important talks going on and you do not . . . you think that you have learned everything. What is this? Yogeśvara: This young gentleman's question is: If you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it. Prabhupāda: No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows. Yogeśvara: That is his point also. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self. Prabhupāda: Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes, he must understand that he is crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. He must know . . . he may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate. *Pṛthu*-putra: His point . . . he says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity . . . Prabhupāda: So the insanity is just like you are dressed, and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance. Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese," "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body, he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: They believe that the soul and the body is one thing. Prabhupāda: How it is one? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated. Prabhupāda: How the man becomes dead? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force. Yogeśvara: Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth. Prabhupāda: Merges? Yogeśvara: Just like a flower grows from the earth . . . Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies . . . (break) M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer. Prabhupāda: Zen philosophy answer? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything. Prabhupāda: And what you are now? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: And now he is himself. Now he is different. Prabhupāda: So how you became from zero? *Pṛthu*-putra: No, he don't say he is different. He says: "Now I am myself." (French with guest) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same. Prabhupāda: Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the man is there. The suffering is there. Prabhupāda: No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero beginning, and he will be zero, and now he is also zero. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect, everything is zero. But there is another aspect—there is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem. Prabhupāda: Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter) Karandhara: Just dying, that solves all the problems. Prabhupāda: No, he said that is natural. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says religious life is a very deep thing on man, and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it don't matter. He has to search. Prabhupāda: No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says actually he doesn't start from zero; he starts from this cosmic force. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force. Prabhupāda: That means . . . you cannot define, that means your knowledge is imperfect. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down . . . Yogeśvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. He says a human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force. Prabhupāda: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease: unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. M. Deshimaru: (French with Yogeśvara) *Yogeśvara: (to Pṛthu*-putra) Maybe you can translate that. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says one thing—we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . what is the cause of the suffering? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself. Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge. Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? M. Deshimaru: (French with Yogeśvara) Yogeśvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate, because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant. Prabhupāda: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this knowledge is there anywhere, for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested. Prabhupāda: No, why . . .? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance. Prabhupāda: What is that something? Do you know it? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He called this things God. That is God. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Well, all right, that's okay. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering." Prabhupāda: Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says but you are suffering still. Prabhupāda: I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question. Prabhupāda: No, we are not choosing. God is asking to do this. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result. Prabhupāda: No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside to devotee) Go. Take sleep. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? Why doesn't everyone just kill themselves? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says from the medical point, that's all right. But from the religious point . . . Prabhupāda: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life . . . Prabhupāda: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy. Karandhara: But . . . Prabhupāda: Real. The premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens. Prabhupāda: That is also desire, to give up all desire. Karandhara: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: That is also desire M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori , without anything, then he is practicing the satori . Prabhupāda: Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles) Karandhara: No point. It's ambiguous. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) *Pṛthu*-putra: For himself it's just to practice zazen , to meditate on Zen. Prabhupāda: That is also desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that; we would like to know God, or something like that. But by practicing zazen , we . . . finally the goal, we just come to the point, we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen . Prabhupāda: Then what is that position of no desire? Karandhara: The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again, without any self. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force. Bhagavān: Does that harmony means to merge? Prabhupāda: Now let me explain. Suppose a material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, "So then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal . . ." Prabhupāda: But I mean to say, what result you will get more than the cats and dogs? Karandhara: Why practice? M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: What happens to the cat and the dog in the end? Karandhara: Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, and the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness. Prabhupāda: Then they have to accept good work and bad work. Karandhara: Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul, or the self, takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy . . . *Prabhupāda: That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Śūnyam means you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ( CC Madhya 19.167). But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu . . . you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self . . . Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam , to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished? No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. M. Deshimaru: (French) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As soon as one realizes he is spirit soul, then there is no more suffering. Karandhara: Their point is they come . . . Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire. Karandhara: Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire. Prabhupāda: So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. It is something like this—just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievouslessness. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievouslessness, that he does not know. *M. Deshimaru: (French with Pṛthu*-putra) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire. Karandhara: No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say "spiritual," then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire. When we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material. Prabhupāda: Purified, purified. Yogeśvara: Purified desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: Prabhupāda says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite, but it's pure desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but . . . Prabhupāda: Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material. Prabhupāda: No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease, he is also lying down, he is also eating, he is also passing stool. And if he is informed that, "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again . . .?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured." Karandhara: Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy. Prabhupāda: That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are . . . together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal. Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge that although . . . just like here is my leg and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand. Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain . . . Prabhupāda: Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As I prick the nail cutter here, oh that, "Oooooh!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand? *Pṛthu*-putra: The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material. Prabhupāda: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees as they try to explain) Karandhara: It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness, is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many, many things afterwards. Prabhupāda: Yes, soul has a form. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking is the form of the soul material? Prabhupāda: No, spiritual. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form. Prabhupāda: Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards . . . they get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't . . . they don't have the next step, or the spiritual. Prabhupāda: No understanding of the spiritual. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter. Karandhara: What that means . . . that's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything, because everything is everything. Yogeśvara: There's no discrimination. Karandhara: Yes, there's no self. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one. Prabhupāda: Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says yes, for sure, we all die. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says but the goal . . . Prabhupāda: Has the dead man has any daily life? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin. Prabhupāda: That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles) Karandhara: No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know that we are going to be . . . that we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Pṛthu*-putra: What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life. Bhagavān: So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too. Bhagavān: Are you a demon? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: As we want. Prabhupāda: No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal killing. So he wanted to stop this animal killing. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message. Karandhara: Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind; that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else. Prabhupāda: At least he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha. Karandhara: They don't have the same historical . . . I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself for a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history, as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha . Prabhupāda: No, no, buddha , actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the . . .? Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started . . . *Prabhupāda: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, "knowledge." Budhā bhāva*-saman . . . (break) M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in a hermitage. Zen . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa . Finish everything. Karandhara: Yes. Zen allows a man . . . according to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results. Prabhupāda: So that is our philosophy. We . . . Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: What is the use of practice? If you practice or you don't practice, you still get the same result. Prabhupāda: No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice. Karandhara: What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes. Bhagavān: The problem is still death, though. The problem is still death. Prabhupāda: No, practice without any aim . . . Karandhara: Well they say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim? *Pṛthu*-putra: When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen , his concept of Buddha, is that disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice. Prabhupāda: No, if he says that, "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says zazen is in himself; the satori is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori , but the satori is going automatically with the practice. Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense, "Goal is without goal"? Then what is this? These are vague terms. Karandhara: It's like saying nothing is true. But then that's a truism. Prabhupāda: It is darkness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to become minus. Prabhupāda: But he is plus always. No, if you have no goal . . . there is example—"Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes . . . if the . . . (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster. Karandhara: Well, they have an aim, but the aim is . . . because they haven't . . . Prabhupāda: That you say they have got, he does not say. You say. Karandhara: No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception. Prabhupāda: So without aim, what is the use of practice? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Yogeśvara: He agrees, but he prefers his non*-goal . . . (indistinct) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Without goal practicing something, it is foolishness. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know what is that goal. He does not know what is that goal. *Karandhara: Well, he says the goal is to become goal*-less. *Prabhupāda: We give the goal . . . we give the goal, yajñārthe. Yajñārthe karma . We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajña*-puruṣa . We know the goal. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says: "Who is Viṣṇu?" Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is God. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And how we can satisfy God? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from me. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says yes. *Prabhupāda: "Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically, then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is . . . the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life. The aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf . . . the suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life, that's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation, he does not know where is the bead? On the . . . there is a bead. Just see. Karandhara: On the heater there's someone's beads. Prabhupāda: So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is? Bhagavān: It is mine. Prabhupāda: You are so forgetful? Bhagavān: No, I was looking for them. Prabhupāda: Why? Why did you . . .? Bhagavān: I left them on your bathroom door, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution if you do not know what is the real goal. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal. He says the real goal, the real things . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. You have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child: he does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind followers. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says: "Who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?" Yogeśvara: Who can judge? Prabhupāda: But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority? Yogeśvara: How can we tell a real authority? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority. Prabhupāda: This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know . . . therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead. So you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand. Karandhara: No, what he's saying is, what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper? Prabhupāda: So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim that, "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavān was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say: "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that, "I have no problem," "So let me act like him." When he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps. Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material . . . that is no spiritual life. (aside) Find out this verse, yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: . . . sama*-duḥkha-sama . . . hmm? Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Y-a-m, yam. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete . . . Prabhupāda: Ete , yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 2.15. Prabhupāda: Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) Prabhupāda: Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up. That is the position of fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) *Pṛthu*-putra: He's all right with this point. He agree with this point. Prabhupāda: He will agree with all the points, provided he is fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: Not after death; in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time. Prabhupāda: Not each time. Just like our devotees: they come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice, he becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, he is not agitated. Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham . What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it the same verse? Prabhupāda: Same verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram. Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram , "unaltered in distress or happiness." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says so we then just have to practice now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be . . . M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's very simple. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that, "I am not this body." Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that, "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple living . . . you are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt you are a living force? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: No, he has no doubt. Prabhupāda: Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual, I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress. Bhagavān: Then we can ask, "What is that great?" Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing. You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means He has insufficient . . . er, more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He understand the point. Prabhupāda: Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand, just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and you are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says "nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child, he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot , or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot . And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Prabhupāda: So, so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ . (laughs) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). His knowledge is lost. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." *(Pṛthu*-putra translates) Prabhupāda: So narādhama means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation. Yogeśvara: Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing. Prabhupāda: But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: But you are a fool. "In your own way" means foolish way. You do not know. M. Deshimaru: (French, saying he understands the analogy but not what it's meant to prove) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way, in this universe there is a greater, spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness. M. Deshimaru: But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The point is that body and soul are two things. M. Deshimaru: I think it is same thing. Prabhupāda: You think, but how you can prove? M. Deshimaru: How you can prove that the body . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone . . . Yogeśvara: He's asking how can we prove our point? Prabhupāda: Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know how we can prove the body . . . M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead." Karandhara: No, but at the time of death the body is still there. The body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same; something's is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body? Prabhupāda: How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells. Scientific explanation. Prabhupāda: So why don't you . . . if you know that, then replace that cell. Karandhara: The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is. M. Deshimaru: They cannot know also what life is. Karandhara: They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body. M. Deshimaru: But the death is . . . you can change also what you say. Prabhupāda: How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: No, he says that the living force and the body is the same. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: Why the body is no more moving? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: Is just what he says. He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma . Prabhupāda: Is the karma . *Pṛthu*-putra: The karma . What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the still, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: "Because the nerves are just cut." Prabhupāda: No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness? His question is very intelligent. M. Deshimaru: Because the hand is cut. Prabhupāda: But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness? Karandhara: It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same. Prabhupāda: You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. M. Deshimaru: (French) Devotee: And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death? Prabhupāda: No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, it can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead. Devotee: That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death? Prabhupāda: That he does not know, he cannot explain. Devotee: Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Take it. Make arrangement with him. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Devotees: (indistinct background comments) (break) (end) (Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe, Director of the Sorbonne University) Bhagavān: This book is being published in twelve volumes. Professor Lacombe: Yes. It's . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: Yale University. I think you are familiar with Yale University in the United States. They have already placed advanced order for all these volumes. Professor Lacombe: (French with Jyotirmayī) *Prabhupāda: We are translating the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literature. You have seen the sample, original verse, word-to-word meaning, then translation, then giving a purport. Professor Lacombe: You wrote the commentary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: What is the paramparā from Caitanya? Prabhupāda: From Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. The six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. The six Gosvāmīs. Then from the Gosvāmīs there is Śrīnivāsācārya. Professor Lacombe: Śrīnivāsa. Prabhupāda: Śrīnivāsācārya. Then from him, I think, this Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Then Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, then Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, then my Guru Mahārāja. Next we are. I am the tenth or eleventh, eleventh from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor Lacombe: And you have come to a round visit to the West now? Prabhupāda: I have come several times. Professor Lacombe: Yes, but this time. Prabhupāda: This time, yes, just to see my centers. I have got many . . . Professor Lacombe: This is your Paris establishment? Prabhupāda: Yes, Paris establishment, yes. Professor Lacombe: Formerly you were in the south of . . . in the banlieu (suburbs). Jyotirmayī: Yes, before. *French devotee: At Fontenay*-aux-Roses. Jyotirmayī: One year ago we came here in Paris. Professor Lacombe: It's of course more noisy and . . . but it's more easy and more convenient. When was this Paris center started? Jyotirmayī: It started four years ago. Professor Lacombe: Four years ago. And this is your first visit to this center? Prabhupāda: No, this is the fourth visit. Professor Lacombe: Fourth visit, every year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Last year also I came. I installed the Deity. Professor Lacombe: You now come right from Vṛndāvana or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am coming from Vṛndāvana, of course, via Delhi. Then Rome, then Geneva, then Paris. Then I shall go to Frankfurt. And from there I shall go to Sydney, Australia. Professor Lacombe: Oh, this is not the direct way. (laughs) *Bhagavān: We have a Ratha*-yātrā festival. You have heard of this festival, from Jagannātha Purī? Professor Lacombe: Yes, of course. I have been there. Bhagavān: We have this festival in very big, in the same scale, in Australia, London, San Francisco, Chicago. Prabhupāda: Where is that poster? Australia? Yes. Bhagavān: And in all these cities we are joined . . . in San Francisco there are ten thousand people who come at least every year to help pull the carts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: In Chicago also, Philadelphia, there will be Ratha*-yātrā. This is the . . . *Satsvarūpa: (showing poster) This is for Melbourne, Australia, Ratha*-yātrā parade, picture of the parade last year. Professor Lacombe: Last year. Prabhupāda: No, this year they are advertising. Professor Lacombe: Which is to come. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Satsvarūpa: This is a poster that Haṁsadūta sent for Frankfurt for next week. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is German language. Professor Lacombe: And all is in the vicinity of Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted. You understand little Bengali? Do you understand . . . Professor Lacombe: Bengali not. Sanskrit, but not . . . Prabhupāda: The Bengali words: Pṛthivīte —this is Sanskrit—"all over the world;" āche , "there are"; yata , "as many"; nagarādi grāma, nagara , "towns . . ." Professor Lacombe: Cities and villages. Prabhupāda: Cities, yes, villages; sarvatra . . . Professor Lacombe: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: . . . "everywhere"; pracāra , "propaganda" or "publicity," pracāra ; haibe , "there will be"; mora nāma , Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name. So now it is being so. All over the world we have got branches, and they know Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. So that is being now propagated. Professor Lacombe: I understand. Prabhupāda: So He predicted, and by His great will it is being propagated. Professor Lacombe: How many . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty*-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand. Yes. Ten thousand. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So . . . and they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are—Indian scholar, I mean—they were surprised when some of my the students, young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa. Professor Lacombe: You have all been to India? Bhagavān: Not all. Some of us. Professor Lacombe: Not all. Some of you. Bhagavān: We have a very big center in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor Lacombe: I have been in Navadvīpa. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: Long ago, in 1936. Prabhupāda: 1936. Did you see my Guru Mahārāja? Professor Lacombe: No. Prabhupāda: No. He passed away in 1936 in December. In December. Professor Lacombe: No, I have not seen him. Probably he was already ill or . . . he was ill. Prabhupāda: Bhaktisiddhānta Saras . . . that is the photograph of my guru . His Guru Mahārāja and his Guru Mahārāja . . . Professor Lacombe: And so on. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is paramparā . *Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this. Professor Lacombe: And how do you . . .? It was one of your pupils who spoke about Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāmānuja. He belongs to the Śrī*-sampradāya. Professor Lacombe: Yes. But there is a connection. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they are connected. Yes. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. So we belong to Madhvācārya. Professor Lacombe: To? *Prabhupāda: Madhvācārya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu belonged to Madhvācārya. Madhvācārya was direct disciple of Vyāsadeva, and by paramparā , Mādhavendra Purī. Then from Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Īśvara Purī as His spiritual master. So we belong to this Madhvācārya*-sampradāya. Madhvācārya-sampradāya or Brahma-sampradāya. The sampradāya , the disciplic succession, is coming from Lord Brahmā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada. Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva. And Vyāsadeva's disciple is Madhvācārya. And from Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we are, Caitan . . . like that. *Professor Lacombe: One of you mentioned, because I had made a translation of the first . . . the beginning of the Śrī*-bhāṣya , Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Śrī*-bhāṣya , Bhagavad-gītā ? *Professor Lacombe: No. The Śrī*-bhāṣya , the Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya. Unfortunately, it is out of print. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: So one of you, I think . . . Devotee: I mentioned about Rāmānujācārya. Professor Lacombe: Yes. You can read it in the library, but unfortunately, it is out of print. Yes. It is a complete translation of the first part, you see, 850 pages, with the text and notes. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Just like we do text and transliteration? Professor Lacombe: The text is in nāgarī . Bhagavān: There are synonyms in your translation? Do you give the synonym for the word? Prabhupāda: Equivalent. Satsvarūpa: This style here. Prabhupāda gives the Bengali . . . Professor Lacombe: Transliteration? Satsvarūpa: Translation, for pronunciation. Professor Lacombe: No, no, there is no transliteration. Satsvarūpa: Translation, purport or notes. Professor Lacombe: No, there is only translation and notes. But some of the synonyms are in the notes. And the purport also comes in in the notes when necessary. Bhagavān: You are teaching a course now? Professor Lacombe: I finished. The year is finished. Bhagavān: Yes. You were teaching a course? Professor Lacombe: Not on this . . . Bhagavān: What was the name of that course? Jyotirmayī: He was teaching the Tenth Canto. Professor Lacombe: Comparative philosophy, the Indian branch. *Jyotirmayī: But this year you were teaching the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Professor Lacombe: Yes. That was one of them, actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come . . . *Prabhupāda: So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita*-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita . Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral, or you like some philosophy? Professor Lacombe: I try to be objective, but not neutral. (laughs) I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: That, Rāmānuja . . . Professor Lacombe: Personal . . . Bhagavān: Personal attraction. Professor Lacombe: Yes. Although, of course, I try . . . I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: The notions of Brahman and ātman both in Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja. That one is not out of print. It is called in French L'Absolute selons les Vedānta . *Prabhupāda: But Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ devakī*-putraḥ . He has written like that in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā . *Professor Lacombe: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . and all the ācāryas , Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So practically, amongst the authorities, Indian ācāryas , everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rāmānujācārya has written his bhāṣya on Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Lacombe: I read it. Yes. And Śaṅkara's also. Both. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has not written. Śaṅkara has written. Śarīraka*-bhāṣya , Vedānta-sūtra . He has written comment on Bhagavad-gītā . Professor Lacombe: Yes, and Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya also. Also Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī, he has written. He belongs to Viṣṇu Svāmī–sampradāya. And our Gauḍīya*-Vaiṣṇava, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, he has written comments. And Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Professor Lacombe: Oh, yes, there is long list of commentaries on the *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. There are ten ṭīkās . Professor Lacombe: This is published . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: Where is it printed? Bhagavān: It is printed in Japan. And we have our publishing house in New York. *Professor Lacombe: In New York. Yes. This is the second volume of the first . . . Ādi*-līlā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is second. Ādi*-līlā , yes. Bhagavān: You are familiar with Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy? Professor Lacombe: Yes. You see, I started Sanskrit and Indian studies in 1929, when we were abroad. Prabhupāda: You have been in India several times. Professor Lacombe: Many times, yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay generally? Professor Lacombe: In several places, but mainly in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Calcutta. Professor Lacombe: Mainly in Calcutta. But in many other places too. Prabhupāda: Calcutta where? Professor Lacombe: Park Mansions, Park Street, near Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Park Street. Asiatic Society. Professor Lacombe: Not far from. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. It is just on the junction of Park Street and Chowringee. Calcutta is my birthplace. Professor Lacombe: You were born in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. All our former relatives, they are in Calcutta. Professor Lacombe: Even now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: I think the situation is better now in Calcutta. Improving. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. Professor Lacombe: Because my last visit there was in 1970, and it was the worst moment. But I hear that it is improving. Prabhupāda: Improving, yes. Just near that Asiatic Society we held our Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival in front of, I think, the museum. Professor Lacombe: Yes, on Chowringee. Prabhupāda: Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling. Professor Lacombe: This year? Prabhupāda: (break) . . . God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less Communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow, and that is the position now. Professor Lacombe: But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is . . . at least in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year, I suppose. Prabhupāda: No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69, there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. (to devotee) You were at that time there? No. Devotee: No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites . . . Prabhupāda: Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation. Devotee: Especially any rich man or politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: The Vice Chancellor of Jadavpur University was killed the day before I arrived in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Old gentleman? Professor Lacombe: Yes. And he was retiring. He was still in activity, but he was soon retiring, and he was walking from the University campus to his home, not far, a short walk. And he was killed by one of these . . . Prabhupāda: Naxalites. Professor Lacombe: Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities. Devotee: Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions. Professor Lacombe: Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killing. Devotee: And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger Communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic, and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be. Professor Lacombe: Now it is better. Prabhupāda: Actually, there was no government. Professor Lacombe: At that time, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable . . . respectable or nonrespect . . . no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that, "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India. Professor Lacombe: Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay? Professor Lacombe: I did not stay. I just visit, went around. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: And it was long ago. *Prabhupāda: There is a place, Ramaṇa*-reti. Did you see that Oriental Philosophical Institution? Professor Lacombe: It was not yet started at that time. Prabhupāda: No, it was there, 1970. No, when you went to Vṛndāvana? *Professor Lacombe: Thirty*-six or '7. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-six? Oh, yes. It was not started. Yes. Ramaṇa-reti, there is a road from Vṛndāvana to . . . connecting with the road from Delhi to Agra. That road is called Chattikara, Chattikara Road. So on that road we have got our temple. It is locally known as Ramaṇa-reti. Professor Lacombe: After Mathurā. Prabhupāda: After Mathurā. It is Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana. There is a shortcut. Formerly . . . the road is very old road, from Delhi to Vṛndāvana, taking a turn at the place known as Chattikara. So on that road we are constructing our temple. Professor Lacombe: Constructing now? Prabhupāda: No, it is finished. Professor Lacombe: It is ancient? But you are . . . Bhagavān: (to devotee) Do you have the photographs? Yogeśvara: Don't think so. Some slides somewhere. Professor Lacombe: But that is an old shrine. It is not a new establishment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, formerly I was staying. I have got my place there also, one of the oldest temple, Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Rādhā-Dāmodara. It was . . . this temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. There are seven important temples: Govindajī's temple, Madana-Mohana, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Rādhā-Ramaṇa and . . . Devotee: Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Giridhārī. Prabhupāda: Not Giridhārī. That is later. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Gopīnātha. *Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha, yes. So Gopīnātha temple, Madana-Mohana temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Śyāmasundara and Gokulānanda, Gokulānanda. These are old seven temples. Later on, other big, big temples, Raṅganātha temple and Gaekwar temple, like that, Jaipur temple, they came into existence. But there are five thousand temples in Vṛndāvana's city, municipal area. Practically each house is a temple. In every house there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and being worshiped by some devotees. The Ārya-samājī movement . . . you know something about Ārya-samāja? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody . . . Professor Lacombe: Even now, nowadays, now they are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, their influence is gone, Ārya*-samāja. *Professor Lacombe: No, I mean the Ārya*-samāja is no more very active now. Prabhupāda: They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. Professor Lacombe: How long will you stay in Paris? Prabhupāda: I am going on Sunday morning. Professor Lacombe: To Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: And then you stay a little longer. Prabhupāda: I will stay there one week, and then, on the 23rd . . . Yogeśvara: 26th. Prabhupāda: No, 23rd. Satsvarūpa: June 23rd we fly to Sydney. We stop in Bombay one day. Professor Lacombe: It will be very hot now in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Now it is . . . might be raining. Professor Lacombe: Yes, it might be raining. Prabhupāda: Because from 10th June monsoon begins. Bombay is not too hot as Vṛndāvana, as Vṛndāvana. Professor Lacombe: On account of the seashore. Prabhupāda: Ah. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Bhagavān: If you go back to India, you can . . . you are welcome to stay in our temples. Professor Lacombe: In Vṛndāvana. Bhagavān: In Vṛndāvana. We have Māyāpur, near Navadvīpa. And we also purchased some very nice land outside of Bombay, Juhu. Professor Lacombe: Yes, I know. Devotee: Hyderabad and Calcutta. In Delhi also, we have a nice center there. Professor Lacombe: What part is it in? Devotee: It's in West End. It is very close to the airport. Professor Lacombe: And in Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Near Park Street, Camac Street. Professor Lacombe: Camac Street I know. Devotee: By Hindi High School. Very nice, old . . . it was called the Rai Castle. It used to be occupied by some governors. (devotee gives the professor some prasādam ) Professor Lacombe: Thank you very much. Just a little. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, during that time of the Naxalites you had mentioned that after that program, you said due to the effects of our program, it stopped all that Naxalite movement. Because very shortly after we had that pandal in the Maidan, the whole Naxalite movement was finished. You said due to that, because we purified the atmosphere . . . Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Devotee: . . . with chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The government could do nothing. The police were helpless. Professor Lacombe: And the festival in Sydney will take a long time? Yogeśvara: Sydney festival is for how many days? Devotee: I think it's just for one day. Prabhupāda: On the 29th. *Yogeśvara: One day, 29th of June. Ratha*-yātrā festival, like in Jagannātha Purī. Professor Lacombe: Today it is better here, little warmer. These days were unusually cool for this time of year. Yogeśvara: How are you feeling? When we went to visit you in your office, it wasn't sure whether you could come, because you were not feeling very well. Professor Lacombe: I am not very well, no. Prabhupāda: What is your age? Professor Lacombe: I got cold. Prabhupāda: No, age. Professor Lacombe: Oh, I shall be seventy after three weeks. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I am also seventy*-eight. But your health is better than me. You have got your natural teeth? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, then very good. (laughter) Professor Lacombe: This is a nice . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is nice. Professor Lacombe: Nice view. Not too noisy. I wonder how? Because you are on the small street. Bhagavān: Tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving conference at Salle Pleyel. Professor Lacombe: Yes, I know. Tonight. I have seen. This? Prabhupāda: This is a picture. I do not know wherefrom they have collected. (laughter) Bhagavān: It is from Yogeśvara. Prabhupāda: It is supposed that the gopīs are looking to the picture of Kṛṣṇa, is it not? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Very likely. Prabhupāda: But this picture also appears to be searching out Aniruddha. Yogeśvara: Uṣā. Prabhupāda: Uṣā, yes. Devotee: Citralekhā Yogeśvara: Yes, that's right. She showed her a picture. Because she had never seen Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: She saw only in dream. So her friend Citralekhā showed. She showed that, "Find out whom you dreamed." Then she pointed out. Professor Lacombe: I remember that. In the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in the Bhāgavata . Professor Lacombe: I could not recognize from this . . . *Prabhupāda: So immediately she brought from Dvārakā*-dhāma palace direct to the palace of Uṣā. Vyom . . . what is called, the asura ? What is his name? Yogeśvara: Bhaumāsura. Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura. Bāṇāsura, Bāṇāsura. The picture, where is that picture, find out. Bāṇāsura. Bāṇāsura was appreciating, "Oh, very nice couple." But he had to challenge, "Why you have entered my palace and talking with my unmarried girl?" Bhagavān: Yes. This is the *Kṛṣṇa Book* that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written. It is a summary of the Tenth Canto. And all these paintings, these are done by our artists in New York. (pause) Professor Lacombe: I'm afraid I should go now. Jyotirmayī: Yes. Monsieur Lacombe has a course. Professor Lacombe: Not a course but a meeting. And as the traffic is rather thick now, it is better to not to take a chance. I should not be late. Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you very much. Professor Lacombe: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Yogeśvara: . . . on a book. It is accepted as being authentic. All the universities use his texts. And he has a big office in the Sorbonne. The Sorbonne is the most famous French university. Prabhupāda: He is a big man. Bhagavān: Actually, it's not famous—it's infamous. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: No? Actually, they're not famous; they're infamous Prabhupāda: No, why infamous? They are famous. Why do you say infamous? Bhagavān: Well, I thought fame only referred to devotee. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: I thought fame was to be referred to . . . for devotee. Prabhupāda: That is your sentiment. But practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous. Devotee: I just saw that . . . maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent." Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā ? Devotee: They said he was found innocent. Prabhupāda: Who is? Devotee: President Nixon Prabhupāda: In the court? Devotee: Yes. Because . . . you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught . . . Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows about the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By a court? Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign, making secret tape recordings against the other party. Prabhupāda: He did? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And still he is innocent? Devotee: Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the Republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the Democrats, and had spies and everything, in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men, and they were all fired. Prabhupāda: So that is not bad, because in politics you have to do that. (laughter) Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault? Devotee: But only he got caught. And all of his men quit. Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies, so I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not . . . everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am. Devotee: They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on. Devotee: According to the American government it is illegal to . . . each person has his own plans, and it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent. Prabhupāda: Court says. Devotee: The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said: "I didn't know anything about it." He says: "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them." Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy? Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. Yogeśvara: Just like during any war they always . . . *Prabhupāda: Politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin*-brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that . . . Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there were some misunderstanding in chess playing, that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas , these things are not uncommon. Devotee: But isn't that not good, because the, like, politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public that, "When I am elected, I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many . . . they pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are . . . I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding. Devotee: Hmm. Because we will also have to do that. Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana . You understand Bengali? No. That "When you are going to dance . . . a girl, or a lady, is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana , became little ashamed. So "You are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground. Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying: "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals . . . just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying: "How can these peoples be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life?" Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that, "They cannot be leader," then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that, "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it. Devotee: Therefore we must cheat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that, "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously, because I know, "I am also thief." (chuckles) So, but this appeal, that does not appeal because, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that, "He is thief. He cannot be trusted," then he knows that, "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Chore chore mastuto bhāi. This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that, "We all are thieves, all cousin*-brothers; so why this man should be only accused?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves. Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand, because he is also vicious. Devotee: Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa, during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said: "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā the elephant, he said the elephant . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that was a tactics. So . . . Devotee: And also when Karṇa . . . Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character, that people can see that "Here is a ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics . . . they are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, the people. So when you point out that, "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said: "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family member, they scrutinizingly studying that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?" Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are. Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty. Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming . . . the same thing, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say: "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest, they have too." Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want. Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places; he could not find out. First of all he gave him four places that, "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles that, "What is wrong there?" Devotee: It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find a spiritual atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that, "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma. Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life: illicit sex, intoxication . . . he was first*-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left. Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said: "Swāmījī will not be successful, because he does not allow free love in his movement." Prabhupāda: That's it. Devotee: He says: "That is why I had to leave, because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University. Prabhupāda: That Neil. Devotee: Yeah, Neil. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: And he told me that, "Swāmījī will not be successful in his movement, because he will not allow free love." I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple. Prabhupāda: No, he cannot give up these bad habits. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said that at the meeting, the conference in Geneva, that no one has died from giving up smoking or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man*-to-man marriage. Most unnatural. *Devotee: Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church, so then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man*-to-man marriage. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers. Bhagavān: It's a matter of money. Prabhupāda: And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the Church? (laughs) Bhārgava: There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God. Prabhupāda: Because the Church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian Church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there? Bhārgava: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not . . . they were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out. Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere. Bhārgava: And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it. Prabhupāda: He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him. Nitāi: That once I met a little old lady on the streets of Denver when I was distributing books. Prabhupāda: Old lady. Nitāi: Very old. She was walking down the street. She was all bent over. And she asked me what I was doing, and I showed her our magazine and explained that we were teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and she said: "Oh, is this yoga ? I remember way back when Vivekananda came here. Have you ever heard of him?" So we began talking about Vivekananda. She said that she was there when he made his tour. She was in Denver when he made his tour of the United States, and that he stopped there for one meeting and lectured. And she went there to see that meeting, but she said that all in all she was disgusted with him because he was so much attracted to the women. She said that he was victimized by the women. They were all trying to get him, and she said so when he went back to India he was a broken man. Prabhupāda: Yes, she (he) took with him three women. One of them was Sister Nivedita. Devotee: Also you told us in India about Aurobindo and Ramakrishna. Aurobindo went also. Aurobindo, when that French woman came, he also fell to her, but just to cover it up he has called her "Mother," because in India, when you call someone "Mother . . ." Prabhupāda: No, everyone knows he (she) is mother and he is father. Devotee: Yeah, right. And they don't think . . . there is no question of sex. When they think of mother and father, they don't think of these things. Also with Ramakrishna. He also had his divine mother. You told us a story in Calcutta that he was very debauched. In a village he used to chase the young women. And his brother actually made him famous. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to . . . not to be victimized by woman. It is very difficult. Yogeśvara: Unless you are victimized by Kṛṣṇa first. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is, I mean, what is called, captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, then he is not victimized. *Madana*-mohana. Madana-dāhana and Madana-mohana . Unless one is captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, he will be troubled by the arrows of the Cupid. Madana-dāhana. The Cupid is known, he has got arrow. If he pierces, then he becomes victim. Yogeśvara: You didn't find it necessary to enter into any kind of discussion with this French professor just now. There was no real discussion of philosophy. I was wondering why that didn't happen. Prabhupāda: He did not raise any question. And he is simply translator. He has no philosophy. I asked him, "Which philosophy you are . . .?" So "I make comparative study." I think he did not like to enter into philosophical . . . is it not? Devotee: Hmm. Most of these gentlemen who come here, when they see you and begin talking with you, like you said, they show their ignorance when they begin to speak. So they prefer not to speak. They always make some excuse that they have an appointment, because they know that if they speak, they will be in real trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A foolish man is very nice as long as he does not speak. As soon as he will speak, his foolishness will be captured." So therefore, sometimes they do not like to talk. Remain as a nice man, (laughs) without being discovered. Devotee: I think maybe the first gentleman who was here, who said . . . he was talking about experiencing God. He says: "Actually I experienced God, but actually God is beyond my experience." You gave him such a hard time that I think he must have made phone calls to all these other men, "Be careful of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is very dangerous." (laughter) Prabhupāda: I told him that, "You have no experience." Devotee: He turned so red when you said: "But how were you saying you are having experience, and you just said God is beyond your experience?" And then he says: "I never said that. You put those words into my mouth." I whispered in his ear, "We have it on tape. We will play it back for you." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Oh*-ho. We have got Kṛṣṇa. We are not afraid in challenging anyone. I believe on that formula. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). I believe that verse very strongly, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be within this list: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . That's all. I have explained that verse little elaborately. Read it. It is very interesting. Where is Satsvarūpa? Bhagavān: He is in the other room. Would you like him to come in? Nitāi: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *"It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā that simply by surrendering oneself unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, one can surmount the stringent laws of material nature. At this point a question arises. How is it that educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the leaders of ordinary men do not surrender unto the lotus . . . (break) . . . Manu, Vyāsa, Devala, Asita, Janaka, Prahlāda, Bali, and later on, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Śrī Caitanya and many others who are faithful philosophers, politicians, educators and scientists, etc., surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers, scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord. They have no idea of God. They simply manufacture their own worldly plans and consequently complicate the problems of material . . ." Prabhupāda: Everyone comes, they say: "Why people are suffering?" They are concerned with the people suffering. Actually not. That is a plea only, as if he has taken the task of minimizing the suffering of humanity. He poses himself as very philanthropist. Actually, he cannot do anything. *Nitāi: "Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic plan*-makers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina , or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic plan-maker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic plan-maker is called duṣkṛtina , which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction . . ." Prabhupāda: Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything—they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their . . . they have come. People come to see Paris just for that . . . what is that theater? Bhagavān: Folies Bergere. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act . . . nobody goes to . . . beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina . Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on, just like we are trying to do: take prasādam , worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches. But there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina . They have got merit to construct very nice, wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then? Nitāi: (reading) "In the *Gītā* it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object. But still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas , or miscreants, are of four different patterns as outlined below. *1. The mūḍhas : those who are grossly foolish like hard*-working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma , action, is meant for yajña , sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas , material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving Mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources." Prabhupāda: Generally, we see now, especially in the Western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany? Devotee: Amsterdam is the same way. Prabhupāda: Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes. Devotee: It is the center. *Prabhupāda: This is very prominent in the Western country, which we are asking that no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable. Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. (aside) All right, keep it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even they can . . . Prabhupāda: That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised. Yogeśvara: We don't have a very good reputation in India? Prabhupāda: Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava. Devotee: No, he means the Western people themselves. Prabhupāda: "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that. Devotee: They think that . . . they won't allow even a Westerner to marry their daughter, because the Westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry with the brahmacārīs , the American brahmacārīs , but the parents would not allow because they said: "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the Westerners, that they . . . the life is so fast. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another brahmacārī saved. (laughs) Prabhupāda: One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy? Devotee: There's that boy in Bombay, he married one Indian girl. Prabhupāda: He is staying. *Devotee: Jagat*-puruṣa. Prabhupāda: He has not left as yet. But he can leave any moment. (laughs) No. He is not American; he is devotee. Therefore he is reliable. Hmm. (pause) Hmm. Bhagavān: We have to arrange a few things. Prabhupāda: What is the next program? Is there any program? Yogeśvara: A big hall meeting. Prabhupāda: Today? Bhagavān: Tonight. Prabhupāda: What time? Bhagavān: Eight o'clock. You will be speaking around 8:30. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) (Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe, Director of the Sorbonne University) Bhagavān: This book is being published in twelve volumes. Professor Lacombe: Yes. It's . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: Yale University. I think you are familiar with Yale University in the United States. They have already placed advanced order for all these volumes. Professor Lacombe: (French with Jyotirmayī) *Prabhupāda: We are translating the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literature. You have seen the sample, original verse, word-to-word meaning, then translation, then giving a purport. Professor Lacombe: You wrote the commentary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: What is the paramparā from Caitanya? Prabhupāda: From Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. The six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. The six Gosvāmīs. Then from the Gosvāmīs there is Śrīnivāsācārya. Professor Lacombe: Śrīnivāsa. Prabhupāda: Śrīnivāsācārya. Then from him, I think, this Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Then Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, then Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, then my Guru Mahārāja. Next we are. I am the tenth or eleventh, eleventh from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor Lacombe: And you have come to a round visit to the West now? Prabhupāda: I have come several times. Professor Lacombe: Yes, but this time. Prabhupāda: This time, yes, just to see my centers. I have got many . . . Professor Lacombe: This is your Paris establishment? Prabhupāda: Yes, Paris establishment, yes. Professor Lacombe: Formerly you were in the south of . . . in the banlieu (suburbs). Jyotirmayī: Yes, before. *French devotee: At Fontenay*-aux-Roses. Jyotirmayī: One year ago we came here in Paris. Professor Lacombe: It's of course more noisy and . . . but it's more easy and more convenient. When was this Paris center started? Jyotirmayī: It started four years ago. Professor Lacombe: Four years ago. And this is your first visit to this center? Prabhupāda: No, this is the fourth visit. Professor Lacombe: Fourth visit, every year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Last year also I came. I installed the Deity. Professor Lacombe: You now come right from Vṛndāvana or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am coming from Vṛndāvana, of course, via Delhi. Then Rome, then Geneva, then Paris. Then I shall go to Frankfurt. And from there I shall go to Sydney, Australia. Professor Lacombe: Oh, this is not the direct way. (laughs) *Bhagavān: We have a Ratha*-yātrā festival. You have heard of this festival, from Jagannātha Purī? Professor Lacombe: Yes, of course. I have been there. Bhagavān: We have this festival in very big, in the same scale, in Australia, London, San Francisco, Chicago. Prabhupāda: Where is that poster? Australia? Yes. Bhagavān: And in all these cities we are joined . . . in San Francisco there are ten thousand people who come at least every year to help pull the carts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: In Chicago also, Philadelphia, there will be Ratha*-yātrā. This is the . . . *Satsvarūpa: (showing poster) This is for Melbourne, Australia, Ratha*-yātrā parade, picture of the parade last year. Professor Lacombe: Last year. Prabhupāda: No, this year they are advertising. Professor Lacombe: Which is to come. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Satsvarūpa: This is a poster that Haṁsadūta sent for Frankfurt for next week. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is German language. Professor Lacombe: And all is in the vicinity of Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted. You understand little Bengali? Do you understand . . . Professor Lacombe: Bengali not. Sanskrit, but not . . . Prabhupāda: The Bengali words: Pṛthivīte —this is Sanskrit—"all over the world;" āche , "there are"; yata , "as many"; nagarādi grāma, nagara , "towns . . ." Professor Lacombe: Cities and villages. Prabhupāda: Cities, yes, villages; sarvatra . . . Professor Lacombe: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: . . . "everywhere"; pracāra , "propaganda" or "publicity," pracāra ; haibe , "there will be"; mora nāma , Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name. So now it is being so. All over the world we have got branches, and they know Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. So that is being now propagated. Professor Lacombe: I understand. Prabhupāda: So He predicted, and by His great will it is being propagated. Professor Lacombe: How many . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty*-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand. Yes. Ten thousand. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So . . . and they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are—Indian scholar, I mean—they were surprised when some of my the students, young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa. Professor Lacombe: You have all been to India? Bhagavān: Not all. Some of us. Professor Lacombe: Not all. Some of you. Bhagavān: We have a very big center in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor Lacombe: I have been in Navadvīpa. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: Long ago, in 1936. Prabhupāda: 1936. Did you see my Guru Mahārāja? Professor Lacombe: No. Prabhupāda: No. He passed away in 1936 in December. In December. Professor Lacombe: No, I have not seen him. Probably he was already ill or . . . he was ill. Prabhupāda: Bhaktisiddhānta Saras . . . that is the photograph of my guru . His Guru Mahārāja and his Guru Mahārāja . . . Professor Lacombe: And so on. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is paramparā . *Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this. Professor Lacombe: And how do you . . .? It was one of your pupils who spoke about Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāmānuja. He belongs to the Śrī*-sampradāya. Professor Lacombe: Yes. But there is a connection. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they are connected. Yes. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. So we belong to Madhvācārya. Professor Lacombe: To? *Prabhupāda: Madhvācārya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu belonged to Madhvācārya. Madhvācārya was direct disciple of Vyāsadeva, and by paramparā , Mādhavendra Purī. Then from Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Īśvara Purī as His spiritual master. So we belong to this Madhvācārya*-sampradāya. Madhvācārya-sampradāya or Brahma-sampradāya. The sampradāya , the disciplic succession, is coming from Lord Brahmā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada. Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva. And Vyāsadeva's disciple is Madhvācārya. And from Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we are, Caitan . . . like that. *Professor Lacombe: One of you mentioned, because I had made a translation of the first . . . the beginning of the Śrī*-bhāṣya , Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Śrī*-bhāṣya , Bhagavad-gītā ? *Professor Lacombe: No. The Śrī*-bhāṣya , the Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya. Unfortunately, it is out of print. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: So one of you, I think . . . Devotee: I mentioned about Rāmānujācārya. Professor Lacombe: Yes. You can read it in the library, but unfortunately, it is out of print. Yes. It is a complete translation of the first part, you see, 850 pages, with the text and notes. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Just like we do text and transliteration? Professor Lacombe: The text is in nāgarī . Bhagavān: There are synonyms in your translation? Do you give the synonym for the word? Prabhupāda: Equivalent. Satsvarūpa: This style here. Prabhupāda gives the Bengali . . . Professor Lacombe: Transliteration? Satsvarūpa: Translation, for pronunciation. Professor Lacombe: No, no, there is no transliteration. Satsvarūpa: Translation, purport or notes. Professor Lacombe: No, there is only translation and notes. But some of the synonyms are in the notes. And the purport also comes in in the notes when necessary. Bhagavān: You are teaching a course now? Professor Lacombe: I finished. The year is finished. Bhagavān: Yes. You were teaching a course? Professor Lacombe: Not on this . . . Bhagavān: What was the name of that course? Jyotirmayī: He was teaching the Tenth Canto. Professor Lacombe: Comparative philosophy, the Indian branch. *Jyotirmayī: But this year you were teaching the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Professor Lacombe: Yes. That was one of them, actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come . . . *Prabhupāda: So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita*-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita . Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral, or you like some philosophy? Professor Lacombe: I try to be objective, but not neutral. (laughs) I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: That, Rāmānuja . . . Professor Lacombe: Personal . . . Bhagavān: Personal attraction. Professor Lacombe: Yes. Although, of course, I try . . . I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: The notions of Brahman and ātman both in Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja. That one is not out of print. It is called in French L'Absolute selons les Vedānta . *Prabhupāda: But Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ devakī*-putraḥ . He has written like that in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā . *Professor Lacombe: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . and all the ācāryas , Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So practically, amongst the authorities, Indian ācāryas , everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rāmānujācārya has written his bhāṣya on Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Lacombe: I read it. Yes. And Śaṅkara's also. Both. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has not written. Śaṅkara has written. Śarīraka*-bhāṣya , Vedānta-sūtra . He has written comment on Bhagavad-gītā . Professor Lacombe: Yes, and Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya also. Also Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī, he has written. He belongs to Viṣṇu Svāmī–sampradāya. And our Gauḍīya*-Vaiṣṇava, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, he has written comments. And Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Professor Lacombe: Oh, yes, there is long list of commentaries on the *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. There are ten ṭīkās . Professor Lacombe: This is published . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: Where is it printed? Bhagavān: It is printed in Japan. And we have our publishing house in New York. *Professor Lacombe: In New York. Yes. This is the second volume of the first . . . Ādi*-līlā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is second. Ādi*-līlā , yes. Bhagavān: You are familiar with Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy? Professor Lacombe: Yes. You see, I started Sanskrit and Indian studies in 1929, when we were abroad. Prabhupāda: You have been in India several times. Professor Lacombe: Many times, yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay generally? Professor Lacombe: In several places, but mainly in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Calcutta. Professor Lacombe: Mainly in Calcutta. But in many other places too. Prabhupāda: Calcutta where? Professor Lacombe: Park Mansions, Park Street, near Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Park Street. Asiatic Society. Professor Lacombe: Not far from. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. It is just on the junction of Park Street and Chowringee. Calcutta is my birthplace. Professor Lacombe: You were born in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. All our former relatives, they are in Calcutta. Professor Lacombe: Even now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: I think the situation is better now in Calcutta. Improving. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. Professor Lacombe: Because my last visit there was in 1970, and it was the worst moment. But I hear that it is improving. Prabhupāda: Improving, yes. Just near that Asiatic Society we held our Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival in front of, I think, the museum. Professor Lacombe: Yes, on Chowringee. Prabhupāda: Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling. Professor Lacombe: This year? Prabhupāda: (break) . . . God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less Communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow, and that is the position now. Professor Lacombe: But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is . . . at least in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year, I suppose. Prabhupāda: No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69, there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. (to devotee) You were at that time there? No. Devotee: No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites . . . Prabhupāda: Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation. Devotee: Especially any rich man or politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: The Vice Chancellor of Jadavpur University was killed the day before I arrived in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Old gentleman? Professor Lacombe: Yes. And he was retiring. He was still in activity, but he was soon retiring, and he was walking from the University campus to his home, not far, a short walk. And he was killed by one of these . . . Prabhupāda: Naxalites. Professor Lacombe: Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities. Devotee: Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions. Professor Lacombe: Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killing. Devotee: And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger Communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic, and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be. Professor Lacombe: Now it is better. Prabhupāda: Actually, there was no government. Professor Lacombe: At that time, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable . . . respectable or nonrespect . . . no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that, "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India. Professor Lacombe: Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay? Professor Lacombe: I did not stay. I just visit, went around. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: And it was long ago. *Prabhupāda: There is a place, Ramaṇa*-reti. Did you see that Oriental Philosophical Institution? Professor Lacombe: It was not yet started at that time. Prabhupāda: No, it was there, 1970. No, when you went to Vṛndāvana? *Professor Lacombe: Thirty*-six or '7. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-six? Oh, yes. It was not started. Yes. Ramaṇa-reti, there is a road from Vṛndāvana to . . . connecting with the road from Delhi to Agra. That road is called Chattikara, Chattikara Road. So on that road we have got our temple. It is locally known as Ramaṇa-reti. Professor Lacombe: After Mathurā. Prabhupāda: After Mathurā. It is Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana. There is a shortcut. Formerly . . . the road is very old road, from Delhi to Vṛndāvana, taking a turn at the place known as Chattikara. So on that road we are constructing our temple. Professor Lacombe: Constructing now? Prabhupāda: No, it is finished. Professor Lacombe: It is ancient? But you are . . . Bhagavān: (to devotee) Do you have the photographs? Yogeśvara: Don't think so. Some slides somewhere. Professor Lacombe: But that is an old shrine. It is not a new establishment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, formerly I was staying. I have got my place there also, one of the oldest temple, Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Rādhā-Dāmodara. It was . . . this temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. There are seven important temples: Govindajī's temple, Madana-Mohana, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Rādhā-Ramaṇa and . . . Devotee: Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Giridhārī. Prabhupāda: Not Giridhārī. That is later. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Gopīnātha. *Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha, yes. So Gopīnātha temple, Madana-Mohana temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Śyāmasundara and Gokulānanda, Gokulānanda. These are old seven temples. Later on, other big, big temples, Raṅganātha temple and Gaekwar temple, like that, Jaipur temple, they came into existence. But there are five thousand temples in Vṛndāvana's city, municipal area. Practically each house is a temple. In every house there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and being worshiped by some devotees. The Ārya-samājī movement . . . you know something about Ārya-samāja? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody . . . Professor Lacombe: Even now, nowadays, now they are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, their influence is gone, Ārya*-samāja. *Professor Lacombe: No, I mean the Ārya*-samāja is no more very active now. Prabhupāda: They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. Professor Lacombe: How long will you stay in Paris? Prabhupāda: I am going on Sunday morning. Professor Lacombe: To Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: And then you stay a little longer. Prabhupāda: I will stay there one week, and then, on the 23rd . . . Yogeśvara: 26th. Prabhupāda: No, 23rd. Satsvarūpa: June 23rd we fly to Sydney. We stop in Bombay one day. Professor Lacombe: It will be very hot now in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Now it is . . . might be raining. Professor Lacombe: Yes, it might be raining. Prabhupāda: Because from 10th June monsoon begins. Bombay is not too hot as Vṛndāvana, as Vṛndāvana. Professor Lacombe: On account of the seashore. Prabhupāda: Ah. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Bhagavān: If you go back to India, you can . . . you are welcome to stay in our temples. Professor Lacombe: In Vṛndāvana. Bhagavān: In Vṛndāvana. We have Māyāpur, near Navadvīpa. And we also purchased some very nice land outside of Bombay, Juhu. Professor Lacombe: Yes, I know. Devotee: Hyderabad and Calcutta. In Delhi also, we have a nice center there. Professor Lacombe: What part is it in? Devotee: It's in West End. It is very close to the airport. Professor Lacombe: And in Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Near Park Street, Camac Street. Professor Lacombe: Camac Street I know. Devotee: By Hindi High School. Very nice, old . . . it was called the Rai Castle. It used to be occupied by some governors. (devotee gives the professor some prasādam ) Professor Lacombe: Thank you very much. Just a little. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, during that time of the Naxalites you had mentioned that after that program, you said due to the effects of our program, it stopped all that Naxalite movement. Because very shortly after we had that pandal in the Maidan, the whole Naxalite movement was finished. You said due to that, because we purified the atmosphere . . . Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Devotee: . . . with chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The government could do nothing. The police were helpless. Professor Lacombe: And the festival in Sydney will take a long time? Yogeśvara: Sydney festival is for how many days? Devotee: I think it's just for one day. Prabhupāda: On the 29th. *Yogeśvara: One day, 29th of June. Ratha*-yātrā festival, like in Jagannātha Purī. Professor Lacombe: Today it is better here, little warmer. These days were unusually cool for this time of year. Yogeśvara: How are you feeling? When we went to visit you in your office, it wasn't sure whether you could come, because you were not feeling very well. Professor Lacombe: I am not very well, no. Prabhupāda: What is your age? Professor Lacombe: I got cold. Prabhupāda: No, age. Professor Lacombe: Oh, I shall be seventy after three weeks. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I am also seventy*-eight. But your health is better than me. You have got your natural teeth? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, then very good. (laughter) Professor Lacombe: This is a nice . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is nice. Professor Lacombe: Nice view. Not too noisy. I wonder how? Because you are on the small street. Bhagavān: Tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving conference at Salle Pleyel. Professor Lacombe: Yes, I know. Tonight. I have seen. This? Prabhupāda: This is a picture. I do not know wherefrom they have collected. (laughter) Bhagavān: It is from Yogeśvara. Prabhupāda: It is supposed that the gopīs are looking to the picture of Kṛṣṇa, is it not? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Very likely. Prabhupāda: But this picture also appears to be searching out Aniruddha. Yogeśvara: Uṣā. Prabhupāda: Uṣā, yes. Devotee: Citralekhā Yogeśvara: Yes, that's right. She showed her a picture. Because she had never seen Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: She saw only in dream. So her friend Citralekhā showed. She showed that, "Find out whom you dreamed." Then she pointed out. Professor Lacombe: I remember that. In the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in the Bhāgavata . Professor Lacombe: I could not recognize from this . . . *Prabhupāda: So immediately she brought from Dvārakā*-dhāma palace direct to the palace of Uṣā. Vyom . . . what is called, the asura ? What is his name? Yogeśvara: Bhaumāsura. Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura. Bāṇāsura, Bāṇāsura. The picture, where is that picture, find out. Bāṇāsura. Bāṇāsura was appreciating, "Oh, very nice couple." But he had to challenge, "Why you have entered my palace and talking with my unmarried girl?" Bhagavān: Yes. This is the *Kṛṣṇa Book* that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written. It is a summary of the Tenth Canto. And all these paintings, these are done by our artists in New York. (pause) Professor Lacombe: I'm afraid I should go now. Jyotirmayī: Yes. Monsieur Lacombe has a course. Professor Lacombe: Not a course but a meeting. And as the traffic is rather thick now, it is better to not to take a chance. I should not be late. Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you very much. Professor Lacombe: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Yogeśvara: . . . on a book. It is accepted as being authentic. All the universities use his texts. And he has a big office in the Sorbonne. The Sorbonne is the most famous French university. Prabhupāda: He is a big man. Bhagavān: Actually, it's not famous—it's infamous. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: No? Actually, they're not famous; they're infamous Prabhupāda: No, why infamous? They are famous. Why do you say infamous? Bhagavān: Well, I thought fame only referred to devotee. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: I thought fame was to be referred to . . . for devotee. Prabhupāda: That is your sentiment. But practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous. Devotee: I just saw that . . . maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent." Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā ? Devotee: They said he was found innocent. Prabhupāda: Who is? Devotee: President Nixon Prabhupāda: In the court? Devotee: Yes. Because . . . you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught . . . Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows about the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By a court? Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign, making secret tape recordings against the other party. Prabhupāda: He did? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And still he is innocent? Devotee: Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the Republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the Democrats, and had spies and everything, in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men, and they were all fired. Prabhupāda: So that is not bad, because in politics you have to do that. (laughter) Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault? Devotee: But only he got caught. And all of his men quit. Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies, so I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not . . . everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am. Devotee: They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on. Devotee: According to the American government it is illegal to . . . each person has his own plans, and it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent. Prabhupāda: Court says. Devotee: The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said: "I didn't know anything about it." He says: "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them." Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy? Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. Yogeśvara: Just like during any war they always . . . *Prabhupāda: Politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin*-brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that . . . Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there were some misunderstanding in chess playing, that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas , these things are not uncommon. Devotee: But isn't that not good, because the, like, politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public that, "When I am elected, I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many . . . they pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are . . . I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding. Devotee: Hmm. Because we will also have to do that. Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana . You understand Bengali? No. That "When you are going to dance . . . a girl, or a lady, is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana , became little ashamed. So "You are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground. Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying: "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals . . . just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying: "How can these peoples be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life?" Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that, "They cannot be leader," then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that, "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it. Devotee: Therefore we must cheat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that, "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously, because I know, "I am also thief." (chuckles) So, but this appeal, that does not appeal because, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that, "He is thief. He cannot be trusted," then he knows that, "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Chore chore mastuto bhāi. This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that, "We all are thieves, all cousin*-brothers; so why this man should be only accused?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves. Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand, because he is also vicious. Devotee: Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa, during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said: "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā the elephant, he said the elephant . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that was a tactics. So . . . Devotee: And also when Karṇa . . . Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character, that people can see that "Here is a ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics . . . they are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, the people. So when you point out that, "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said: "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family member, they scrutinizingly studying that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?" Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are. Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty. Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming . . . the same thing, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say: "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest, they have too." Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want. Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places; he could not find out. First of all he gave him four places that, "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles that, "What is wrong there?" Devotee: It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find a spiritual atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that, "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma. Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life: illicit sex, intoxication . . . he was first*-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left. Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said: "Swāmījī will not be successful, because he does not allow free love in his movement." Prabhupāda: That's it. Devotee: He says: "That is why I had to leave, because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University. Prabhupāda: That Neil. Devotee: Yeah, Neil. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: And he told me that, "Swāmījī will not be successful in his movement, because he will not allow free love." I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple. Prabhupāda: No, he cannot give up these bad habits. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said that at the meeting, the conference in Geneva, that no one has died from giving up smoking or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man*-to-man marriage. Most unnatural. *Devotee: Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church, so then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man*-to-man marriage. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers. Bhagavān: It's a matter of money. Prabhupāda: And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the Church? (laughs) Bhārgava: There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God. Prabhupāda: Because the Church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian Church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there? Bhārgava: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not . . . they were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out. Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere. Bhārgava: And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it. Prabhupāda: He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him. Nitāi: That once I met a little old lady on the streets of Denver when I was distributing books. Prabhupāda: Old lady. Nitāi: Very old. She was walking down the street. She was all bent over. And she asked me what I was doing, and I showed her our magazine and explained that we were teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and she said: "Oh, is this yoga ? I remember way back when Vivekananda came here. Have you ever heard of him?" So we began talking about Vivekananda. She said that she was there when he made his tour. She was in Denver when he made his tour of the United States, and that he stopped there for one meeting and lectured. And she went there to see that meeting, but she said that all in all she was disgusted with him because he was so much attracted to the women. She said that he was victimized by the women. They were all trying to get him, and she said so when he went back to India he was a broken man. Prabhupāda: Yes, she (he) took with him three women. One of them was Sister Nivedita. Devotee: Also you told us in India about Aurobindo and Ramakrishna. Aurobindo went also. Aurobindo, when that French woman came, he also fell to her, but just to cover it up he has called her "Mother," because in India, when you call someone "Mother . . ." Prabhupāda: No, everyone knows he (she) is mother and he is father. Devotee: Yeah, right. And they don't think . . . there is no question of sex. When they think of mother and father, they don't think of these things. Also with Ramakrishna. He also had his divine mother. You told us a story in Calcutta that he was very debauched. In a village he used to chase the young women. And his brother actually made him famous. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to . . . not to be victimized by woman. It is very difficult. Yogeśvara: Unless you are victimized by Kṛṣṇa first. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is, I mean, what is called, captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, then he is not victimized. *Madana*-mohana. Madana-dāhana and Madana-mohana . Unless one is captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, he will be troubled by the arrows of the Cupid. Madana-dāhana. The Cupid is known, he has got arrow. If he pierces, then he becomes victim. Yogeśvara: You didn't find it necessary to enter into any kind of discussion with this French professor just now. There was no real discussion of philosophy. I was wondering why that didn't happen. Prabhupāda: He did not raise any question. And he is simply translator. He has no philosophy. I asked him, "Which philosophy you are . . .?" So "I make comparative study." I think he did not like to enter into philosophical . . . is it not? Devotee: Hmm. Most of these gentlemen who come here, when they see you and begin talking with you, like you said, they show their ignorance when they begin to speak. So they prefer not to speak. They always make some excuse that they have an appointment, because they know that if they speak, they will be in real trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A foolish man is very nice as long as he does not speak. As soon as he will speak, his foolishness will be captured." So therefore, sometimes they do not like to talk. Remain as a nice man, (laughs) without being discovered. Devotee: I think maybe the first gentleman who was here, who said . . . he was talking about experiencing God. He says: "Actually I experienced God, but actually God is beyond my experience." You gave him such a hard time that I think he must have made phone calls to all these other men, "Be careful of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is very dangerous." (laughter) Prabhupāda: I told him that, "You have no experience." Devotee: He turned so red when you said: "But how were you saying you are having experience, and you just said God is beyond your experience?" And then he says: "I never said that. You put those words into my mouth." I whispered in his ear, "We have it on tape. We will play it back for you." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Oh*-ho. We have got Kṛṣṇa. We are not afraid in challenging anyone. I believe on that formula. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). I believe that verse very strongly, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be within this list: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . That's all. I have explained that verse little elaborately. Read it. It is very interesting. Where is Satsvarūpa? Bhagavān: He is in the other room. Would you like him to come in? Nitāi: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *"It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā that simply by surrendering oneself unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, one can surmount the stringent laws of material nature. At this point a question arises. How is it that educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the leaders of ordinary men do not surrender unto the lotus . . . (break) . . . Manu, Vyāsa, Devala, Asita, Janaka, Prahlāda, Bali, and later on, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Śrī Caitanya and many others who are faithful philosophers, politicians, educators and scientists, etc., surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers, scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord. They have no idea of God. They simply manufacture their own worldly plans and consequently complicate the problems of material . . ." Prabhupāda: Everyone comes, they say: "Why people are suffering?" They are concerned with the people suffering. Actually not. That is a plea only, as if he has taken the task of minimizing the suffering of humanity. He poses himself as very philanthropist. Actually, he cannot do anything. *Nitāi: "Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic plan*-makers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina , or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic plan-maker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic plan-maker is called duṣkṛtina , which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction . . ." Prabhupāda: Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything—they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their . . . they have come. People come to see Paris just for that . . . what is that theater? Bhagavān: Folies Bergere. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act . . . nobody goes to . . . beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina . Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on, just like we are trying to do: take prasādam , worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches. But there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina . They have got merit to construct very nice, wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then? Nitāi: (reading) "In the *Gītā* it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object. But still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas , or miscreants, are of four different patterns as outlined below. *1. The mūḍhas : those who are grossly foolish like hard*-working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma , action, is meant for yajña , sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas , material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving Mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources." Prabhupāda: Generally, we see now, especially in the Western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany? Devotee: Amsterdam is the same way. Prabhupāda: Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes. Devotee: It is the center. *Prabhupāda: This is very prominent in the Western country, which we are asking that no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable. Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. (aside) All right, keep it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even they can . . . Prabhupāda: That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised. Yogeśvara: We don't have a very good reputation in India? Prabhupāda: Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava. Devotee: No, he means the Western people themselves. Prabhupāda: "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that. Devotee: They think that . . . they won't allow even a Westerner to marry their daughter, because the Westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry with the brahmacārīs , the American brahmacārīs , but the parents would not allow because they said: "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the Westerners, that they . . . the life is so fast. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another brahmacārī saved. (laughs) Prabhupāda: One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy? Devotee: There's that boy in Bombay, he married one Indian girl. Prabhupāda: He is staying. *Devotee: Jagat*-puruṣa. Prabhupāda: He has not left as yet. But he can leave any moment. (laughs) No. He is not American; he is devotee. Therefore he is reliable. Hmm. (pause) Hmm. Bhagavān: We have to arrange a few things. Prabhupāda: What is the next program? Is there any program? Yogeśvara: A big hall meeting. Prabhupāda: Today? Bhagavān: Tonight. Prabhupāda: What time? Bhagavān: Eight o'clock. You will be speaking around 8:30. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) *(Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto, Kali*-yuga) *Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described, in Kali*-yuga. Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto? Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. (pause) (break) . . . it is stated: "Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan . . . "The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see. Yogeśvara: That's Paris. *Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta recently it was dangerous to go out because the next . . . you do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a . . . I was guest in our Life Member's. Sitting in morning, at ten o'clock. "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the back side. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) . . . about so*-called saintly persons, they are tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ : "The so-called yogīs , they'll live in the town." (chuckles) Actually, the yogīs have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in . . . just like the other . . . he's living in Paris City, and he's a yogī . Yogeśvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma*-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ : "And the sannyāsīs , they'll be too much greedy about money." Yogeśvara: Just see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power, the wife . . . the divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Hmm. Here it is: *"In the Kali*-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa ," you see? I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's . . . what is that? Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions . . . Yogeśvara: Lion's Club? Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street. Yogeśvara: They call them "flop houses." *Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna . Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking—milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana , sleeping, or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana , and vyavāya , sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna . I have seen in New York, they have no . . . in a Hamburg, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna . So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ , "and dress," hīnāḥ , "being devoid of all these things," piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti , "they will be just like," what is called, "urchins." Yogeśvara: Piśācī . Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort, and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca . What is the English? Nitāi: Ghost? *Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghostlike. Hīnāḥ piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ : "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ , people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then? *In the Kali*-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only, he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cent. Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api . Satsvarūpa: The guests are here. Nitāi: There are many guests here to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents." Yogeśvara: To old parents? Prabhupāda: Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmayī: So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is . . . he's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransard. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew, and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually. Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in India? Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry. Prabhupāda: Pondicherry? Madame Siaude: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Aurobindo's place. Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time. Jyotirmayī: And she was studying with Monsieur Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Jyotirmayī: Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also Monsieur Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together. Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is . . . Jyotirmayī: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransard asked me was, "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person." Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand. Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God. Jyotirmayī: What? Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is imperson. Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person, how the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said: "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then he's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then . . . the Christians pray in the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (Jyotirmayī translates Prabhupāda's words throughout) Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is . . . we have a personal relationship with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angle of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; *and Paramātmā, all*-pervading, localized; and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal; the sun globe, localized; *and the sun*-god, person. (break) Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta*-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there . . . in the Bible also there is, "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma : "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā : the resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Nitāi: Brahmaṇaḥ aham . . . "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal." Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "The constitution of Brahman . . ." Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. You have to explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll get another. Bhagavān: In the meantime, we can translate from here. Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: He's asking when . . . how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jyotirmayī: He's asking how old are the . . . Yogeśvara: How old are the *Vedas* ? Prabhupāda: *Vedas* ? Yogeśvara: These Vedic scriptures we are reading, how old are they, he's asking. *Prabhupāda: They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye. (aside) Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Find out this verse. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Now who will translate? You, one by one line, the translation you speak. *Nitāi: Okay. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, all*-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā . . ." Prabhupāda: And this is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: ". . . who is the first created living being." Prabhupāda: You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud banging in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right. *Nitāi: Oh, it's in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Aham . . .? Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām. And the Bible it is said: "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ : "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin, for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Yogeśvara: You said also in the Bible it is said: "There is the word." Prabhupāda: That word, sound, is the *Vedas* . So before creation, *Vedas* were there. So you cannot find out the history of *Vedas* . You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, *Vedas* were there. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the *Vedas* . He says there are still distinctions. Prabhupāda: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect—the later edition or the original. Pastor (2): (French along with other guests) Yogeśvara: You can translate? Jyotirmayī: They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning, everything together. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the *Vedas* , the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the *Vedas* , but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in that chapter it also says that the word of God became flesh, and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: They say . . . they accept . . . they think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also that he was part of this material world. Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. Pastor (2): (French, along with others) Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body. Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. Madame Siaude: (French) Prabhupāda: A material body, how there can be resurrection? Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French with lady guest) Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Jyotirmayī: They said it is by the acintya power of God. Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, they thought that Jesus had a material body, "Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body. Jyotirmayī: Bewildered them? Yogeśvara: Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that." Prabhupāda: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. Yogeśvara: That was their punishment. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we . . . Prabhupāda: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain . . . Yogeśvara: What is the reason for his incarnation? Prabhupāda: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has . . . that means he has got spiritual body. You . . . Madame Siaude: Yes, we accept that he got the spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body. Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "O Father." Then why "only son"? Madame Siaude: We say that the son is . . . Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son. Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes. Prabhupāda: If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. By adoption. (laughter) (French) Jyotirmayī: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption. Yogeśvara: Adopted son. Yes. Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus' body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Their idea is that yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men. Prabhupāda: Why he should accept? Madame Siaude: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that he was a real man . . . Prabhupāda: But his death . . . you think that he was died, but he resurrected. Madame Siaude: But the gospel says that he had died. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Madame Siaude: You cannot . . . we accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. Madame Siaude: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Exactly. Yogeśvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. Pastor (2): (French along with others) Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit? Madame Siaude: No, I don't understand it by hearing it. We have to read it. Prabhupāda: Na hanyate, does not die; hanyamāne śarīre , apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: So . . . shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead. Madame Siaude: No. Death and resurrection altogether. Yogeśvara: There's a resurrection. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame . . . Madame Devi? Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is a big part of the Oriental religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir. Yogeśvara: Kashmir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Where was this? In a newspaper? Prabhupāda: Yes. In paper I saw. Madame Siaude: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history, because everybody has his own documentation. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased, because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that . . . here . . . at least, in London I have seen, there are so many churches vacant. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference last night, and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God? Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle . . . (to Jyotirmayī) Explain. (French explanation) Similarly, this huge, gigantic cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our . . . Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1): "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who is the origin of all creation," this is the active principle. There is. So . . . and how He is working? (to Jyotirmayī) You have to explain. (French explanation) In the beginning of *Bhāgavatam* , I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ , cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then . . . of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ . He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (interrupting translation) That would be impersonal. Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God, and it is being distributed through Brahmā. And He's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. Madame Siaude: (French) Yogeśvara: She says that God is known as antaryāmī , the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the practice of yoga . Madame Siaude: (French) I guess if you have the idea of prapati , of surrender . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Madame Siaude: . . . this is a way to God directly. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . that is the real process. Madame Siaude: But it is not yoga . It is different from yoga ? *Prabhupāda: No, it is bhakti*-yoga . Madame Siaude: Prapati is different. *Prabhupāda: Prapati is bhakti*-yoga . Madame Siaude: You take it in bhakti ? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti , yes. Prapati means bhakti . Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything. When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā , great soul, is very rare to be seen." Madame Siaude: (French) Jyotirmayī: So she said that in . . . it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot . . . they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, ārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada Pañcarātra): "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And nārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim : "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar*-bahiḥ yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And nārādhita . . . nantar-bahiḥ tad yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim , "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. French guests: (French) Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) He said, well, first you said that . . . first we must learn about God, and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first. Prabhupāda: But unless one . . . we say: "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion . . . religion means . . . Pastor (2): (French) Prabhupāda: What does he say? Yogeśvara: He says: "But God reveals Himself to us." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is . . . that is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present ten senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue: one is talking and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasāda , then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been . . . they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda ." *And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American government spent millions of dollar to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they immediately give up. French guests: (French) Jyotirmayī: They say they are very glad for all of this. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement, chanting the holy name of God. You don't . . . I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of . . . if you have got any other name, you can chant. Pastors: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: He was very sad yesterday when there was some people, you know, making noises. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. They are . . . gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins. Jyotirmayī: Becoming? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Urchins. Very degraded. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: That I was discussing from *Bhāgavatam* , how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people, who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing . . . Prabhupāda: Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. Yogeśvara: That's the point. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted. Prabhupāda: So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers. Yogeśvara: From? Prabhupāda: From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said: "Thou shall not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. Pastor (2): (French) Bhagavān: What did he say? Yogeśvara: He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. There was . . . Yogeśvara: Yes, they stayed until midnight. Bhagavān: There was . . . the total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Twelve o'clock. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss. *Prabhupāda: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just consider and then give your judgment after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra : "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra : "If you consider it with logic and judgment, then you'll find it is sublime." *Bhagavān: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad*-gītā , cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said: "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was a word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. (break) Yogeśvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say that you can't chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material. Prabhupāda: That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun or moon . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . because the body of God is giving off light. Prabhupāda: No, the residents also, they are bright. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, illuminating. Prabhupāda: Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they have to take . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? One hour we have passed? (laughter) Thank you very much. Pastor (1): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. (to incoming guest) Come on. Yogeśvara: Bring the chair so that she can sit. (first batch of guests leave) American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Prabhupāda: Huh? American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that? Yogeśvara: He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ ?" Prabhupāda: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. Yogeśvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some . . . Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you prepare yourself . . . because . . . just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. (Pṛthu*-putra translates throughout) (to man) Do you understand English? American man: I'm American. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts. Yogeśvara: Thoughts. She asks, she says: "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action, because the thoughts are some . . . of some . . ." Bhagavān: "The thoughts begin the action." Yogeśvara: "The thoughts begins the action, determine the actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: "Do you think that in the future is going to be all religious movements together?" Yogeśvara: "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group?" Prabhupāda: There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God, and we should be obedient to God. This is religion. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?" Prabhupāda: No, there is no special path. There is only one path that, "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you . . . they accept this? American man: I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"? American man: My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God. Prabhupāda: Yes. American man: If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it . . . Prabhupāda: No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all. American man: God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God. Prabhupāda: Simply you understand. American man: I understand the light. Prabhupāda: No, no, you understand. You say: "God is word." That means you understand God. American man: No. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say: "God is word"? American man: I say God cannot be explained with words. Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that? American man: Because I . . . Prabhupāda: If you do not know the subject matter . . . you say that, "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God? American man: I do not speak of God. Prabhupāda: No, you are speaking that, "God is word." You say: "God is word"? American man: No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain. Prabhupāda: But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things? American man: No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept. American man: It is light. I speak of the light. Prabhupāda: Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know . . . sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know. American man: No, no, no. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light. American man: If you wish to call it "God . . ." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once, and once only . . . Prabhupāda: Now, now, you say that God is light. American man: . . . so we'll understand. Prabhupāda: Do you say, "God is light"? American man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you know God. Then why do you say: "God cannot be known"? American man: I say that "God" is a word. Prabhupāda: You say "light" or "word." What is the . . . what is the definite . . . American man: I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me. Prabhupāda: That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God. American man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know . . . American man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Yes, anywhere. Light is here also. American man: And that's all there is. Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is all right. Light is here also, not only . . . American man: Light is here. Light is this table. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. American man: Light is this floor. Light is everything. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light. American man: Because for me, "God" is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word? Yogeśvara: I think you've been defeated. American man: No, no, I don't think I've been defeated. Prabhupāda: Yes. American man: And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, you . . . you fix up one thing. You say: "God is light." That word "light" is God? Or that . . . American man: I do not say God is light. Prabhupāda: Yes, you said that. American man: I say there is only light. I say there is only light. Prabhupāda: Only light? American man: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is God. American man: I do not speak of God, I speak of light. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know God. You accept one position. American man: I say there is light. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God. American man: What is God? Explain to me what is God. Prabhupāda: (aside) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time. American man: If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please. American man: He cannot explain to me. Prabhupāda: Then you go away. Please. What can I do? American man: It's as you wish. Prabhupāda: I cannot waste. American man: If you cannot explain to me what is God . . . I speak of light, so . . . Prabhupāda: But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything. American man: I just speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said. Dhanañjaya: You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come. American man: Oh, I'll come. (leaves) Bhagavān: Why was he brought in in the first place? Anyway, we can continue, but . . . Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: "Is there some . . . any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa , they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says that . . . Yogeśvara: Degree of covering. "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?" Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all. Yogeśvara: By past karma . Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She asks if by repeating the mantra , the name of God, it has more . . . Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified. Yogeśvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God a day." Yogeśvara: Per day. Every day. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God. Madame Devi: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. (end) *(Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto, Kali*-yuga) *Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described, in Kali*-yuga. Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto? Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. (pause) (break) . . . it is stated: "Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan . . . "The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see. Yogeśvara: That's Paris. *Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta recently it was dangerous to go out because the next . . . you do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a . . . I was guest in our Life Member's. Sitting in morning, at ten o'clock. "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the back side. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) . . . about so*-called saintly persons, they are tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ : "The so-called yogīs , they'll live in the town." (chuckles) Actually, the yogīs have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in . . . just like the other . . . he's living in Paris City, and he's a yogī . Yogeśvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma*-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ : "And the sannyāsīs , they'll be too much greedy about money." Yogeśvara: Just see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power, the wife . . . the divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Hmm. Here it is: *"In the Kali*-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa ," you see? I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's . . . what is that? Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions . . . Yogeśvara: Lion's Club? Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street. Yogeśvara: They call them "flop houses." *Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna . Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking—milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana , sleeping, or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana , and vyavāya , sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna . I have seen in New York, they have no . . . in a Hamburg, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna . So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ , "and dress," hīnāḥ , "being devoid of all these things," piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti , "they will be just like," what is called, "urchins." Yogeśvara: Piśācī . Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort, and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca . What is the English? Nitāi: Ghost? *Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghostlike. Hīnāḥ piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ : "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ , people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then? *In the Kali*-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only, he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cent. Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api . Satsvarūpa: The guests are here. Nitāi: There are many guests here to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents." Yogeśvara: To old parents? Prabhupāda: Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmayī: So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is . . . he's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransard. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew, and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually. Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in India? Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry. Prabhupāda: Pondicherry? Madame Siaude: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Aurobindo's place. Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time. Jyotirmayī: And she was studying with Monsieur Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Jyotirmayī: Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also Monsieur Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together. Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is . . . Jyotirmayī: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransard asked me was, "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person." Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand. Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God. Jyotirmayī: What? Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is imperson. Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person, how the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said: "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then he's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then . . . the Christians pray in the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (Jyotirmayī translates Prabhupāda's words throughout) Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is . . . we have a personal relationship with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angle of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; *and Paramātmā, all*-pervading, localized; and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal; the sun globe, localized; *and the sun*-god, person. (break) Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta*-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there . . . in the Bible also there is, "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma : "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā : the resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Nitāi: Brahmaṇaḥ aham . . . "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal." Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "The constitution of Brahman . . ." Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. You have to explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll get another. Bhagavān: In the meantime, we can translate from here. Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: He's asking when . . . how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jyotirmayī: He's asking how old are the . . . Yogeśvara: How old are the *Vedas* ? Prabhupāda: *Vedas* ? Yogeśvara: These Vedic scriptures we are reading, how old are they, he's asking. *Prabhupāda: They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye. (aside) Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Find out this verse. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Now who will translate? You, one by one line, the translation you speak. *Nitāi: Okay. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, all*-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā . . ." Prabhupāda: And this is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: ". . . who is the first created living being." Prabhupāda: You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud banging in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right. *Nitāi: Oh, it's in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Aham . . .? Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām. And the Bible it is said: "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ : "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin, for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Yogeśvara: You said also in the Bible it is said: "There is the word." Prabhupāda: That word, sound, is the *Vedas* . So before creation, *Vedas* were there. So you cannot find out the history of *Vedas* . You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, *Vedas* were there. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the *Vedas* . He says there are still distinctions. Prabhupāda: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect—the later edition or the original. Pastor (2): (French along with other guests) Yogeśvara: You can translate? Jyotirmayī: They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning, everything together. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the *Vedas* , the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the *Vedas* , but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in that chapter it also says that the word of God became flesh, and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: They say . . . they accept . . . they think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also that he was part of this material world. Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. Pastor (2): (French, along with others) Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body. Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. Madame Siaude: (French) Prabhupāda: A material body, how there can be resurrection? Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French with lady guest) Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Jyotirmayī: They said it is by the acintya power of God. Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, they thought that Jesus had a material body, "Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body. Jyotirmayī: Bewildered them? Yogeśvara: Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that." Prabhupāda: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. Yogeśvara: That was their punishment. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we . . . Prabhupāda: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain . . . Yogeśvara: What is the reason for his incarnation? Prabhupāda: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has . . . that means he has got spiritual body. You . . . Madame Siaude: Yes, we accept that he got the spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body. Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "O Father." Then why "only son"? Madame Siaude: We say that the son is . . . Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son. Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes. Prabhupāda: If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. By adoption. (laughter) (French) Jyotirmayī: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption. Yogeśvara: Adopted son. Yes. Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus' body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Their idea is that yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men. Prabhupāda: Why he should accept? Madame Siaude: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that he was a real man . . . Prabhupāda: But his death . . . you think that he was died, but he resurrected. Madame Siaude: But the gospel says that he had died. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Madame Siaude: You cannot . . . we accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. Madame Siaude: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Exactly. Yogeśvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. Pastor (2): (French along with others) Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit? Madame Siaude: No, I don't understand it by hearing it. We have to read it. Prabhupāda: Na hanyate, does not die; hanyamāne śarīre , apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: So . . . shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead. Madame Siaude: No. Death and resurrection altogether. Yogeśvara: There's a resurrection. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame . . . Madame Devi? Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is a big part of the Oriental religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir. Yogeśvara: Kashmir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Where was this? In a newspaper? Prabhupāda: Yes. In paper I saw. Madame Siaude: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history, because everybody has his own documentation. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased, because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that . . . here . . . at least, in London I have seen, there are so many churches vacant. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference last night, and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God? Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle . . . (to Jyotirmayī) Explain. (French explanation) Similarly, this huge, gigantic cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our . . . Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1): "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who is the origin of all creation," this is the active principle. There is. So . . . and how He is working? (to Jyotirmayī) You have to explain. (French explanation) In the beginning of *Bhāgavatam* , I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ , cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then . . . of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ . He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (interrupting translation) That would be impersonal. Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God, and it is being distributed through Brahmā. And He's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. Madame Siaude: (French) Yogeśvara: She says that God is known as antaryāmī , the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the practice of yoga . Madame Siaude: (French) I guess if you have the idea of prapati , of surrender . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Madame Siaude: . . . this is a way to God directly. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . that is the real process. Madame Siaude: But it is not yoga . It is different from yoga ? *Prabhupāda: No, it is bhakti*-yoga . Madame Siaude: Prapati is different. *Prabhupāda: Prapati is bhakti*-yoga . Madame Siaude: You take it in bhakti ? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti , yes. Prapati means bhakti . Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything. When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā , great soul, is very rare to be seen." Madame Siaude: (French) Jyotirmayī: So she said that in . . . it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot . . . they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, ārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada Pañcarātra): "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And nārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim : "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar*-bahiḥ yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And nārādhita . . . nantar-bahiḥ tad yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim , "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. French guests: (French) Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) He said, well, first you said that . . . first we must learn about God, and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first. Prabhupāda: But unless one . . . we say: "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion . . . religion means . . . Pastor (2): (French) Prabhupāda: What does he say? Yogeśvara: He says: "But God reveals Himself to us." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is . . . that is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present ten senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue: one is talking and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasāda , then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been . . . they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda ." *And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American government spent millions of dollar to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they immediately give up. French guests: (French) Jyotirmayī: They say they are very glad for all of this. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement, chanting the holy name of God. You don't . . . I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of . . . if you have got any other name, you can chant. Pastors: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: He was very sad yesterday when there was some people, you know, making noises. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. They are . . . gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins. Jyotirmayī: Becoming? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Urchins. Very degraded. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: That I was discussing from *Bhāgavatam* , how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people, who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing . . . Prabhupāda: Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. Yogeśvara: That's the point. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted. Prabhupāda: So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers. Yogeśvara: From? Prabhupāda: From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said: "Thou shall not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. Pastor (2): (French) Bhagavān: What did he say? Yogeśvara: He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. There was . . . Yogeśvara: Yes, they stayed until midnight. Bhagavān: There was . . . the total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Twelve o'clock. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss. *Prabhupāda: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just consider and then give your judgment after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra : "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra : "If you consider it with logic and judgment, then you'll find it is sublime." *Bhagavān: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad*-gītā , cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said: "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was a word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. (break) Yogeśvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say that you can't chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material. Prabhupāda: That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun or moon . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . because the body of God is giving off light. Prabhupāda: No, the residents also, they are bright. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, illuminating. Prabhupāda: Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they have to take . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? One hour we have passed? (laughter) Thank you very much. Pastor (1): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. (to incoming guest) Come on. Yogeśvara: Bring the chair so that she can sit. (first batch of guests leave) American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Prabhupāda: Huh? American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that? Yogeśvara: He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ ?" Prabhupāda: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. Yogeśvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some . . . Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you prepare yourself . . . because . . . just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. (Pṛthu*-putra translates throughout) (to man) Do you understand English? American man: I'm American. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts. Yogeśvara: Thoughts. She asks, she says: "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action, because the thoughts are some . . . of some . . ." Bhagavān: "The thoughts begin the action." Yogeśvara: "The thoughts begins the action, determine the actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: "Do you think that in the future is going to be all religious movements together?" Yogeśvara: "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group?" Prabhupāda: There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God, and we should be obedient to God. This is religion. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?" Prabhupāda: No, there is no special path. There is only one path that, "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you . . . they accept this? American man: I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"? American man: My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God. Prabhupāda: Yes. American man: If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it . . . Prabhupāda: No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all. American man: God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God. Prabhupāda: Simply you understand. American man: I understand the light. Prabhupāda: No, no, you understand. You say: "God is word." That means you understand God. American man: No. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say: "God is word"? American man: I say God cannot be explained with words. Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that? American man: Because I . . . Prabhupāda: If you do not know the subject matter . . . you say that, "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God? American man: I do not speak of God. Prabhupāda: No, you are speaking that, "God is word." You say: "God is word"? American man: No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain. Prabhupāda: But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things? American man: No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept. American man: It is light. I speak of the light. Prabhupāda: Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know . . . sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know. American man: No, no, no. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light. American man: If you wish to call it "God . . ." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once, and once only . . . Prabhupāda: Now, now, you say that God is light. American man: . . . so we'll understand. Prabhupāda: Do you say, "God is light"? American man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you know God. Then why do you say: "God cannot be known"? American man: I say that "God" is a word. Prabhupāda: You say "light" or "word." What is the . . . what is the definite . . . American man: I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me. Prabhupāda: That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God. American man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know . . . American man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Yes, anywhere. Light is here also. American man: And that's all there is. Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is all right. Light is here also, not only . . . American man: Light is here. Light is this table. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. American man: Light is this floor. Light is everything. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light. American man: Because for me, "God" is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word? Yogeśvara: I think you've been defeated. American man: No, no, I don't think I've been defeated. Prabhupāda: Yes. American man: And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, you . . . you fix up one thing. You say: "God is light." That word "light" is God? Or that . . . American man: I do not say God is light. Prabhupāda: Yes, you said that. American man: I say there is only light. I say there is only light. Prabhupāda: Only light? American man: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is God. American man: I do not speak of God, I speak of light. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know God. You accept one position. American man: I say there is light. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God. American man: What is God? Explain to me what is God. Prabhupāda: (aside) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time. American man: If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please. American man: He cannot explain to me. Prabhupāda: Then you go away. Please. What can I do? American man: It's as you wish. Prabhupāda: I cannot waste. American man: If you cannot explain to me what is God . . . I speak of light, so . . . Prabhupāda: But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything. American man: I just speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said. Dhanañjaya: You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come. American man: Oh, I'll come. (leaves) Bhagavān: Why was he brought in in the first place? Anyway, we can continue, but . . . Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: "Is there some . . . any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa , they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says that . . . Yogeśvara: Degree of covering. "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?" Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all. Yogeśvara: By past karma . Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She asks if by repeating the mantra , the name of God, it has more . . . Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified. Yogeśvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God a day." Yogeśvara: Per day. Every day. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God. Madame Devi: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. (end) (Conversation with German Women Philosophers) Pṛthu: (translating guest's comments) . . . that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be . . . she has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that. Prabhupāda: After death? Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone will get that peace? (translated into German throughout) German lady (1): (German) (break). Pṛthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace. Prabhupāda: The cats and dogs? Everyone? The same? German lady (1): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on. Prabhupāda: So what is that difference? (break) Pṛthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have . . . animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts. Prabhupāda: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose . . . just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? (break) Pṛthu: She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and . . . Prabhupāda: But the activity is the same: eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spiritual, this. She says that is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. I think the . . . when a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (break) Pṛthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the . . . but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence. Prabhupāda: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence? Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (break) . . . such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced: the dog or the man? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: Yes, she admits that the man, by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do that, she says. Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (break) Pṛthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and . . . Prabhupāda: So is that very good intelligence? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She's, this intelligence is . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? German lady (1): (German) (break) Haṁsadūta: . . . like to have more, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Pṛthu: She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he actually misuses his intelligence. Prabhupāda: But God has given intelligence for this bad work? German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind. Prabhupāda: Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now, suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is the evil in mankind. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the conclusion is that the so*-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. German ladies: (German) Prabhupāda: And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? (break) Pṛthu: She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men. Prabhupāda: Bad men also will get peace? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see how nonsense philosophers they are. German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is not, this . . . she's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men. Prabhupāda: She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: So this lady's point is, where shall the bad man go after death? Prabhupāda: He'll become a dog. German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell. *Prabhupāda: He may not believe, but hell is there. If . . . (aside) You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ ( BG 14.18). Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said: "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ . Pṛthu: What is it? Prabhupāda: Ūrdhvam . And she is a philosopher? German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says she is a primitive, simple man. Prabhupāda: But still not willing to go to hell. (aside) You found? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. *Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ . . . *Prabhupāda: Sattva*-sthāḥ. Satsvarūpa: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets, those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." Prabhupāda: Just . . . translator. Satsvarūpa: Page 666 . . . well, it's 14.18. (devotee translates into German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where this hellish worlds are? Prabhupāda: They're, they are different planets. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: She wants to know how we know this. Prabhupāda: From the books. (break) German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: So she feels . . . it seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to . . . to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them. Prabhupāda: Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus' order. (break) Pṛthu: . . . she saying. Prabhupāda: Jesus has given some instruction or not? German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: So he says that Jesus has given some directions, and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves, and that we should not do any harm to him. Prabhupāda: But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell. Is it not? Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: Yes, yes. She says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teaching, like the Jesus said. Prabhupāda: Eternally hellish life. Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: She makes no . . . she said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much, because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus . . . this was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus . . . Prabhupāda: I don't follow. What is that? Hmm? Satsvarūpa: She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus. Prabhupāda: Who? Satsvarūpa: This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did, because he was long ago. Prabhupāda: Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus? German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give . . . Prabhupāda: That means everyone has rejected Jesus. German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pṛthu: She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly. Haṁsadūta: Literally. Pṛthu: Literally. Prabhupāda: Hmm? I do not follow. Haṁsadūta: That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally, because who knows. Prabhupāda: Then why do you quote? (break) Pṛthu: So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true. Prabhupāda: But if you . . . if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (break) . . . new truth. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes . . . Prabhupāda: So there is no truth. It is all hodgepodge. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what . . . Prabhupāda: So it is a hodgepodge. (laughter) German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pṛthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements . . . Prabhupāda: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally. Pṛthu: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of taking Bible? German lady (2): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (break) (end) (Conversation with German Women Philosophers) Pṛthu: (translating guest's comments) . . . that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be . . . she has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that. Prabhupāda: After death? Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone will get that peace? (translated into German throughout) German lady (1): (German) (break). Pṛthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace. Prabhupāda: The cats and dogs? Everyone? The same? German lady (1): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on. Prabhupāda: So what is that difference? (break) Pṛthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have . . . animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts. Prabhupāda: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose . . . just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? (break) Pṛthu: She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and . . . Prabhupāda: But the activity is the same: eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spiritual, this. She says that is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. I think the . . . when a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (break) Pṛthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the . . . but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence. Prabhupāda: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence? Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (break) . . . such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced: the dog or the man? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: Yes, she admits that the man, by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do that, she says. Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (break) Pṛthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and . . . Prabhupāda: So is that very good intelligence? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She's, this intelligence is . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? German lady (1): (German) (break) Haṁsadūta: . . . like to have more, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Pṛthu: She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he actually misuses his intelligence. Prabhupāda: But God has given intelligence for this bad work? German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind. Prabhupāda: Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now, suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is the evil in mankind. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the conclusion is that the so*-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. German ladies: (German) Prabhupāda: And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? (break) Pṛthu: She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men. Prabhupāda: Bad men also will get peace? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see how nonsense philosophers they are. German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is not, this . . . she's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men. Prabhupāda: She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: So this lady's point is, where shall the bad man go after death? Prabhupāda: He'll become a dog. German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell. *Prabhupāda: He may not believe, but hell is there. If . . . (aside) You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ ( BG 14.18). Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said: "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ . Pṛthu: What is it? Prabhupāda: Ūrdhvam . And she is a philosopher? German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says she is a primitive, simple man. Prabhupāda: But still not willing to go to hell. (aside) You found? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. *Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ . . . *Prabhupāda: Sattva*-sthāḥ. Satsvarūpa: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets, those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." Prabhupāda: Just . . . translator. Satsvarūpa: Page 666 . . . well, it's 14.18. (devotee translates into German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where this hellish worlds are? Prabhupāda: They're, they are different planets. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: She wants to know how we know this. Prabhupāda: From the books. (break) German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: So she feels . . . it seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to . . . to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them. Prabhupāda: Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus' order. (break) Pṛthu: . . . she saying. Prabhupāda: Jesus has given some instruction or not? German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: So he says that Jesus has given some directions, and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves, and that we should not do any harm to him. Prabhupāda: But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell. Is it not? Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: Yes, yes. She says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teaching, like the Jesus said. Prabhupāda: Eternally hellish life. Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: She makes no . . . she said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much, because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus . . . this was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus . . . Prabhupāda: I don't follow. What is that? Hmm? Satsvarūpa: She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus. Prabhupāda: Who? Satsvarūpa: This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did, because he was long ago. Prabhupāda: Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus? German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give . . . Prabhupāda: That means everyone has rejected Jesus. German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pṛthu: She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly. Haṁsadūta: Literally. Pṛthu: Literally. Prabhupāda: Hmm? I do not follow. Haṁsadūta: That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally, because who knows. Prabhupāda: Then why do you quote? (break) Pṛthu: So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true. Prabhupāda: But if you . . . if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (break) . . . new truth. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes . . . Prabhupāda: So there is no truth. It is all hodgepodge. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what . . . Prabhupāda: So it is a hodgepodge. (laughter) German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pṛthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements . . . Prabhupāda: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally. Pṛthu: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of taking Bible? German lady (2): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (break) (end) (Conversation with Professor Durckheim, Dr. P. J. Saher and Professor Porsch) Professor Durckheim: . . . and to write books, and people came, and today we have there what you would call a little āśrama , mostly about fifty, sixty persons living there, coming, going; no patients, just people who try to discover their real self, nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That's our work we are trying to do. Prabhupāda: So Absolute Truth is realized in three aspect: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Some realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, others realize the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, and the final realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are cultivating the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So which aspect you are cultivating: the Paramātmā or the impersonal Brahman or the Personality of Godhead? Professor Durckheim: You can't help cultivate all three in the long run. Prabhupāda: No, all three are one. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: All three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain—somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place—everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India—or everywhere—some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness. Professor Durckheim: As Buddhists do. Prabhupāda: Buddhists, they, I think, they . . . yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa . Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization. Professor Durckheim: To stop the? Prabhupāda: Realization. To become zero. Is not that? Professor Durckheim: To become? I didn't understand. Prabhupāda: Zero. Devotee: Zero. Professor Durckheim: Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of view of the old ego it's zero, but this zero is everything from . . . (indistinct) . . . from the point of view of the natural ego it's zero and once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. It's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety; and some, localized Paramātmā; and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man: first of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating in healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa , negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong? Professor Durckheim: You are certainly right. We see the . . . it is a big . . . in our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality. Prabhupāda: Yes, different it is. The same example as I gave you: in diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception. Professor Durckheim: The dead. Person who is dead. Prabhupāda: We take this body—dead always. This body is actually dead. Just like this microphone is made of iron. It is iron. When it is working, responding, at that time also it is iron. And when it is out of order, does not work, it is also iron. Similarly, this body is working on account of the living force within. When the living force is out, it is called dead. But actually it is dead always. The living force is the important thing. That is making him alive. Actually, alive or dead, it is dead matter. But the living force is the active principle. That is distinguishing this body as dead or alive. But factually it is dead always. *That is the beginning of instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā : "Arjuna, you are lamenting for this body, but the body is dead." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So unless we know that . . . (aside) Don't make cut-cut . The dead body is not the subject matter of study, either it is in working order or it is in dead order. The subject matter of study is the active principle which makes the dead body moving. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā . (aside) Read that portion. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "The Blessed Lord said, While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." Prabhupāda: What is your opinion about this? Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter but makes matter alive? Prabhupāda: That active principle, life, or living soul. Professor Durckheim: Yes, how do you make them . . . Devotee: How do you teach them? Professor Durckheim: . . . teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel? Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be, "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā . First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is un . . . aware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy. Professor Durckheim: No, that's quite clear. *Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad*-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking, I am asking my student, "Come here," he comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"—he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question still? It is quite clear for our rational mind: I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, let's say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion. Because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says . . . talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says: "Well, you must make exercises . . ." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom. *Prabhupāda: No, as I say, the active principle . . . I am also the active principle, that active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham. So 'ham , "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self*-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54): "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly," prasannātmā . He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : "He is equal to everyone—man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54): "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all . . . just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized, because he has understood "What I am." Yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that, "I am part and parcel of God, so my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service. Professor Durckheim: I say, Master, that when you say he knows, you don't speak about this knowledge. Prabhupāda: Which knowledge? Professor Durckheim: You came already . . . you say: "Believe, and by this know that I am participating in the great divine person." And yet I didn't experience it. *Prabhupāda: Why not experience? He knows that, "I am that active principle." Everyone knows that, "I am not this body." When I say: "This is my finger," I don't say "I finger." So "I," what "I am"? That realization, self*-realization that, "I am part and parcel of God," so that he knows that, "I am part and parcel of God. So therefore my duty is to serve God." So they are engaged in serving God. *So this serving God, or devotional service, is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) Find out that verse, that: *So unless one is self*-realized, he cannot be engaged in the service of the Supreme Self. Ordinarily, a master and a servant, a servant knows that "I am engaged by the master. He is giving me food, he is giving me shelter—he is giving me everything for his serving." So he is careful in his service. This is a material example. Similarly, self-realization, ultimately, as I told you, that first impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then the yogīs , they realize the localized Paramātmā. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , they observe the Supersoul within himself, and they meditate upon Him. (aside) What is that verse? Satsvarūpa: Translation: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: This is our process. Professor Durckheim: A long way to get there. Prabhupāda: And the process is going on. The chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, by this process they fully realize that the master, the Supreme Being, and engages himself always. These European, American boy, they are all educated. Not . . . in your country, of course, the young men . . . Professor Durckheim: They are educated too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? (break) "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin A, B, C, D. And why should you kill animals? Why should we give trouble to the others?" This is self*-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same, the body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: Well, may I put a question, Master? On the way there should be progress, inner progress. How to realize that there is a progress? I would say one thing is very important. There are three sufferings in the world of mankind: fear of annihilation, despair if you are taken by something which is absurd, and loneliness, if you are alone. These three sufferings in the world for the natural being. I realize that you make a decisive step on your inner way when you feel life in the very moment when you have to die, when you feel the great meaning in the very moment when you are just having despair, and when you feel the great love of the person God exactly while you are lonely in the world. And I have realized that we are now in a very decisive moment in the Western world because for the first time in the history of mankind, the Western people, in Europe and the States, start to take seriously certain experiences, inner experiences, where this truth is revealed. In all times, as far as I see, the great condition of the East, they knew about those experiences where death loses its terrifying character and becomes the threshold to some bigger life. And I always see with also my disciples, as soon as they learn to go through some kind of death, they awake on a new level. So I will say if people are in my place and after a week they still sleep very well, then I have made a mistake. About that sleep, just to realize something in overcoming their usual needs, their usual fears, their usual habits, in order to touch inwardly another level, and then suddenly they realize there is some quite different principle at work as they see usually in their natural mind. Prabhupāda: So that different principle, for a devotee, is already realized. Because a devotee never thinks of this body that, "I am this body." He thinks "I am . . ." ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am spirit soul." So without that realization, there is no question of devotional life. So that is first understood. That instruction is being given by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna that, "You are considering very seriously on this body, but a learned man does not take this body very seriously, either dead or alive." That is the first realization. So everyone in this world, they are concerned with this body, dead or alive. When alive, they take care of the body in so many ways, and when dead they erect big statue upon it. So that realization is this body. When it is alive, very nicely dressed, nicely groomed, nicely everything on account of this body, and when dead, then again the statue, the tomb, that's all, but missing the active principle. He is taking care of this body even after death by erecting very nice memorial, but he has no knowledge where the active principle has lost. That is ignorance. Professor Durckheim: When I was a young man, I was four years in the World War. Prabhupāda: Four years. *Professor Durckheim: Four years. Forty*-eight months almost in the foremost front. And I was one of the two officers . . . Prabhupāda: In First World War? First World War? Professor Durckheim: World War I, 1914 to 1918. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I was one of the two officers who were not wounded in my regiment. And there I met death again and again. And I saw people just killed next to me. Suddenly it was out. It was just only, as you say, the body without soul. But I realized also, in myself, that when death was near and you had accepted death, accepted to die, then you realized something which has nothing to do whatsoever with death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: So this marked me very much. It's the very beginning of my inner way, these four years of World War. *Prabhupāda: There is a verse, nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). If one is God-realized soul, he is not afraid of anything. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. So actually, if one is self-realized, he is no more fearful or concerned with the bodily necessities of life. That is liberation. Just like as you mentioned sleeping. Sleeping also, a bodily necessity. When you are tired, you sleep. That is bodily necessity. But it is not spiritually necessary. About the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau : "Conquered over sleeping, eating, mating." That is also one of the symptoms of self-realization. These things are necessities of the body. So the more one is advanced in self-realization, these things will be minimized: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. And gradually it will come to nil, because this is bodily necessities. Self, the active principle, that is different. The active principle, necessity is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. But these are bodily necessities: eating, sleeping, mating. So, so long this body is there, of course, we must eat, we must sleep. That is required. But the more we advance, these necessities diminished. Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Then sleeping will be considered a waste of time. A self-realized man goes to sleep, he thinks that, "I am going to waste so much time, because still I am subjected to the necessities of this body." He regrets. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a sequence of experiences, isn't it, of inner experiences? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a progress of inner experiences. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I do believe that at the actual moment still, the treasure in the European peoples, the different peoples who went through the war, through concentration camps, through battlefields and bombing nights, are hidden in their hearts certain moments when death was near and they were wounded and nearly torn in pieces. Because they had a certain experience they survived. And again and again, when I give a lecture, I have two or three people waiting, telling me, "Now you just reminded me an experience long ago, ten days ago, two months ago, when I thought I was a little bit crazy, and now I understand it has been the experience, perhaps the most important of my life, on which I should have built my future inner way." And these experiences are still there. And once people understand, they don't need a war and a battleship and a concentration camp and a bombing night to take serious certain inner experiences when they are suddenly are touched by this divine reality, and they suddenly feel that this bodily existence is not lasting at all. Prabhupāda: That's it. That we can experience every night. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. *Prabhupāda: When you dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So, and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such*-and-such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually, I am different from the mind. And that is self-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). (aside) Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ . That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he, the soul, is even higher than the intelligence." Prabhupāda: This is description. Professor Durckheim: May I put a question, sir, to the question of time, the meaning of time? I think there are two ways to look at time and to look at eternity. Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. Time is eternal, but we calculate time, past and present and future, according to my temporary material existence. Just like a small ant—the ant's past and present is different from my past and present. Professor Durckheim: Is different from . . .? Prabhupāda: My past and present. I am a human being. I live for hundred years. So my past and present is different from the ant who lives for, say, a few hours. Professor Durckheim: Is different from? Prabhupāda: From the ant, a small living entity. And similarly, Brahmā, his past, present is different because he has done millions and millions of years as one day. So the time is eternal, but according to our condition, occupying the time and space, we calculate past and present and future. Otherwise time itself is eternal. Professor Durckheim: Well, now I question you. You see, talking about eternity, there are two meanings or concepts at the same time. The one is that the finite life is going on infinitely, infinity, millions of year. That is one way to think about eternity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: But there is another one. Prabhupāda: Eternity means, we say, no beginning, no end. That is eternity. Professor Durckheim: Isn't there also this other one, when, for instance, Christ says: "I am before Abraham was"? This "I am." There is one kind of eternity which has nothing to do with past and future at all, which is beyond past and future. Prabhupāda: Past and future is concerned with this body. Professor Durckheim: Is concerned with this body. It is concerned, exactly, with this body and with this ego, with regard to which there is a "before" and an "after," an "up" and "down." And if you take away this ego, what's there? What's left? *Prabhupāda: That is pure ego. Now I am born Indian, say, seventy*-five years ago, or seventy-eight years ago, and I have got this Indian body, I have got this false ego that, "I am Indian, I am this body." This is misconception. Professor Durckheim: That is one way to look at time. But it's not the . . . Prabhupāda: Time is there, but because I have got this temporary body, I am thinking past, present, future. The temporary body will be vanished. I shall get another temporary body. Then again my begins past and present. So therefore this is called illusion. Time is eternal. It has no beginning, no end, but we transmigrate from one body to another. We are calculating, miscalculating, past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: Yes, time has no beginning and no end. But time in this second sense has nothing to do with beginning and end. Prabhupāda: It has no end . . . beginning, no end. The beginning and end is of this body. And in relationship with this body, we are calculating past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body. Prabhupāda: I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become . . . Prabhupāda: No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man. I am very . . ." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting, "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am śūdra "—so many designation. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity. Professor Durckheim: But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure. Prabhupāda: The consciousness is covered by impurity, just like your health is covered by disease, and the symptom is fever. But that is a covering. That is not your healthy state. Similarly, my consciousness, when I think that, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," that is impurity. And when he thinks that, "I am neither German, neither American, nor this nor that—I am part and parcel of God," that is pure consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But in order to get there, to feel that one is neither this nor that, one must have suffered by first having thought that one is this or that. Prabhupāda: That suffering is just like you suffer in the dream. You are attacked by a tiger. There is no tiger. Actually there is no suffering. But on account of ignorance, you are thinking, "The tiger is eating me." Professor Durckheim: Yes, but this is a very good example, because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience is also material. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dream and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane. That, it is stated: *So we have to transcend the platform of intelligence also. Then we come to the platform of spiritual realization. That is instructed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) What happened to your eyes? Devotee: I was cut. Prabhupāda: How? Devotee: I was in an automobile accident. Prabhupāda: Oh. Haṁsadūta: But he's all right. Prabhupāda: Others also? Haṁsadūta: No it's. It's just a cut here. *Prabhupāda: So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to real consciousness. That real consciousness is that, "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight because you designated yourself that, "I am German." This is an example that, "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self*-realization. *Just like the Arjuna. Arjuna was put into the ba . . . you have read Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, this Bhagavad-gītā ? Professor Durckheim: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he was thinking in terms of designation that, "I am . . . I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin*-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first thing, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , when he understood that, "I am not this body; *I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self*-realization, not for this body. *Professor Durckheim: No.There is only one way to world peace: through self*-realization of those who are responsible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Self*-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should understand that, "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany," "This is England," "This is France," "This is India," "This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean" and "This is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding that, "Nothing belongs to us . . ." The United Nation, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground, because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace. *Professor Durckheim: As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the high priest, now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu after the other one. Only one resisted, in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said: "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword master asked him—he was a realized man—"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said: "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said: "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self*-realized man, said: "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize, that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that. So if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful. *Professor Durckheim: In my work I always feel the great difficulty again and again, sir, and is always there. It's a great difference to believe that you are the son of God and to feel it and to experience it. As long it's only a belief, it's well*-meaning doing. How to prepare the conditions by which disciples might feel it? That's all of my daily work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like . . . it is very simple thing. Just like if I say . . . suppose you have not seen your father—you are posthumous child—but you must believe that there is father. Without father there is no possibility of my existence. That is belief. And in the Christian . . . Professor Durckheim: Experience it. *Prabhupāda: This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily . . . father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this: *Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "I am the seed*-giving father of all living entities in different forms of life." Professor Durckheim: There is one difficulty in the Western part of the world which might not be so great in the Eastern part. If . . . I realize in Japan, when they talk about father and mother, especially also mother, it was all something to be loved, to be grateful, to submit. In our countries now, the father is generally the one who does not understand anymore his son, and the son has to get rid of his body father in order to be able to realize himself. So very often the main obstacle in our youth is the image of mother and father, because they have never understood their children. So the word father for many people in the Western part of the world . . . Prabhupāda: Misunderstood. Professor Durckheim: Is a misunder . . . is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today. I have to very much . . . Prabhupāda: It is not religion; it is fact. It is not . . . religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son . . . without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. Yes. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son. Or more son. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment. Professor Durckheim: It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says: "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that . . . the Christians, so*-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say: "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that, "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that, "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact. He is the supreme father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. (aside) Read that śloka . Satsvarūpa: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: Just see. Professor Durckheim: Wonderful. *Prabhupāda: Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated, in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self*-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facilities to the human being, not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. "National" means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of national. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all . . . everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that, "I am this body." But when we understand that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self-realization. Professor Durckheim: And this understanding has to be an experience. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is experienced, but on account of his foolishness he is thinking otherwise. He knows that, "I am not this body. I am now in this body of an old man, but I was not in this body, say, fifty years ago. Therefore I am not this body, that body or this body. I am different from the body." This is very easy experience. I am existing. I understand that I existed in a baby's body, I existed in a child's body, boy's body. So I have now changed so many bodies. Therefore I am not this body. Just like you dress. You are now in black coat, and next moment you can be in other color. But you are not this coat; *you have changed the coat. Similarly, I have changed the body, but I am not this body. This is self*-realization. First of all let me know that, "I am not this body, I am living within this body." You are not this coat. If I ask you, "Mr. Black Coat" that is my foolishness. You are neither black coat or white coat. And that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: And yet isn't there difficulty? You can already have understood very well that you are not the body, but as long, for instance, as you have still fear of death, you didn't understand by experience. As soon as you understood by experience, you have no fear of death because you know that you can't die. Prabhupāda: So experience is received by higher knowledge. Experience means higher knowledge. Just like a child . . . Professor Durckheim: Experience means . . .? Prabhupāda: Higher knowledge. Higher knowledge. Professor Durckheim: As soon as you have the experience, you get the higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the more you are highly elevated in knowledge, your experience is perfect. Professor Durckheim: I would like to say the other way around: As more as you are advanced in experience, the more you have higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: But experience, it may be slow. But higher knowledge you can get immediately. Professor Durckheim: Yes. Like flash. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . Professor Durckheim: When it's awakening. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that you are not this body. So instead of my experiencing for years and years that, "I am not this body," we take the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect, and my experience is now received. Professor Durckheim: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru . That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . Now, Who is guru ? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru , śrotriyam , who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru . Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru , he is not guru . This is called guru-paramparā , disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our . . . (aside) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. Yes. So I am always inexperienced, because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. He asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone." That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge. You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. *We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because the source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God, and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God, who has come directly from Him, the same. So . . . but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure. Not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him, and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). This is . . . evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside) Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science, as it is, appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: That's it. Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the Western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Professor Durckheim: You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our Western, as you know better than I do, in our Western mankind . . . and they say: "Well, after all . . ." You see, science, they say: "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said: "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me, you have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31): "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life." Professor Durckheim: No, nothing. *Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatim . Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ : "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very, quite visible in the Western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā . That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha . The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the . . . Professor Durckheim: They won't move at all, blind . . . Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are being frustrated. Professor Durckheim: There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question, which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question. Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end . . . Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna , or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into . . . Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than . . . lower animals—birds, beast and other—they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating. Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being, we are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have no even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice, nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die; then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense even. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars—war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only . . . without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living, "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that, "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that, "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live, and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cow dung, we have stacked here. I have seen. They are also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. Buddhism, there is no animal killing, although they are now killing animals. But originally Buddha religion means nonviolence. Also Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā . So in no religion unnecessary killing of animal is allowed. Even in Muhammadans, they are also . . . Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted. Professor Durckheim: May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away? Prabhupāda: No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientist . . . Professor Durckheim: That's what I mean. Prabhupāda: . . . Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose. The trees have got sensation. Professor Durckheim: So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree . . . Prabhupāda: No, we don't kill. You take the fruits. Professor Durckheim: We cut it. Prabhupāda: Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary. Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra : *That "Those who have no hands"—that means animals—"they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four*-legged." Just like grass has no leg, but it is a food for the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, nunam mahatām tatra , "Then one who is powerful, very powerful . . ." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the . . . that is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. *But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda . So Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me these foodstuff." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra , to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization. Not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy. Yes. Haṁsadūta: There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening. Prabhupāda: No, let them come here. (break) We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: I have published about fourteen books like this. Professor Durckheim: Incredible. Incredible. What a thing! Prabhupāda: (guests enter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You can put this side. German devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Saher. He is the leader of the Society of Yoga and Integral Philosophical Studies in Germany. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. (laughter and indistinct background comments) So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. (devotee translates into German for guests) I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment . . . not at the present moment; *always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is . . . (break) . . . then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). That is one. (aside) You serve it out. *So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one: to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self*-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozens. But our only writing is the goal of life: Kṛṣṇa. Professor Durckheim: May I come back once to my question, Master, the relationship between belief and experience? Because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks. Prabhupāda: No, believe the authority. That is the . . . that is better than experience. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And that is what in our country is . . . I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on. Prabhupāda: (aside) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief . . . Professor Durckheim: They realize that now belief, which is not faith, has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts. And they don't believe what you tell them; they just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a . . . big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. (to guest) That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so? Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that . . . first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas , that is perfect. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge— Veda , Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge—so that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas , just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually, these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question, Master? You see, the belief, the understanding, is always depending on the level of the one who wants to understand, and that's the level of our quite natural, normal mind of the usual general person. And there is another level, where certain experiences open the door to some deeper consciousness. And, as you know, one of the key words of the Christian religion is, in the Gospels, that you have to turn around, to make annoia , to pierce through a certain skin to get quite another level. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And from this level the heaven opens to those who didn't understand what the heaven means. They thought it was behind the clouds. You see, there is a natural way to look at God, and this natural way to look at God is lost as soon as people go through the rational mind. And then there is no other way out but to have a personal, initiated experience. We talk about initiation when people are capable to go through a certain death and to discover another level, and only . . . and so, the great wisdom which you are talking about, I am sure that it also touches people on two levels. There is the ordinary man, and he might believe, but there is a deeper level, where things start to change yourself, to transform yourself in deeper experiences. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . that is the beginning of instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct background comments) The beginning of knowledge . . . German lady: Excuse me. Would you please explain for some people who don't speak English here, in German, because we don't know all of your words? Professor Durckheim: Yes, but I didn't want to interrupt the Master. Prabhupāda: No. I have no objection if somebody translates into German. Haṁsadūta: Vedavyāsa can translate. (German) Professor Durckheim: Do you permit me to repeat it in German? For those who are present here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: (German) (break) Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding: Yes. What is the translation? *Satsvarūpa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: And now . . . Haṁsadūta: (to devotee) You want to translate? Translate. (devotee translates into German from this point) *Prabhupāda: Yes, translate. This is the basic principle of knowledge that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge that, "I am not this . . ." At the present moment everything . . . that I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self*-interest means this bodily interest. *(aside) Explain this. (German translation) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that, "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform—what is knowledge? First of all one must know that, "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book, Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the Western world an opposition from the Christian side, where the key word is that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh? Prabhupāda: That's all right. We accept it. Professor Durckheim: The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (repeats in German) Prabhupāda: Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said? Professor Durckheim: Spirit? You see I have very often . . . I saw the difference. Haṁsadūta: The spirit becomes the flesh. Professor Durckheim: The spirit becomes flesh. Prabhupāda: That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin, and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand it. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. (to professor) I think I have understood your point? Professor Durckheim: Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me—I might be wrong—that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think, that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (repeats in German) Prabhupāda: Now, what is our suffering? Professor Durckheim: I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad*-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not? Professor Durckheim: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life, I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated: birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem. Professor Durckheim: Through many lives. Prabhupāda: Many life or this life. In this life you understand that, "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately. Professor Durckheim: May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No. Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. Professor Durckheim: (translates question into German) German lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christian? Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians, who also certainly want to become independent from this body, which wants material life only. Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or . . . knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge . . . Vedavyāsa: I think I should translate, Prabhupāda. (German) Prabhupāda: Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Muhammadan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge, we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. Professor Durckheim: (translates) (break) Vedavyāsa: (translating question) . . . stress on this point, that we are existing in a body but we should accept our existence as human being. Prabhupāda: Existence as human being you want? So do you think human being is existing in this body is perfect? (Vedavyāsa translates questions and answers from this point) Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I don't say it is perfect. (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says yes, he accepts that our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the ideal should be how to become perfect. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he asks, "How to become perfect: as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem, how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit. Prabhupāda: Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people. Prabhupāda: So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk, " Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu. " Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He thinks there's a great difference between the talking of birds and bees and our talking. Prabhupāda: Why difference? They are talking in their community; you are talking in your community. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) *Haṁsadūta: No, he has said a very good point. He said there is a difference, because an animal has no self*-consciousness. He does not understand what he is in essence. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real point. Dr. P. J. Saher: I communicate myself, but . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the real point, that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts. Therefore the Brahma*-sūtra , Vedānta-sūtra , instructs in the beginning, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit, or Absolute Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. (aside) You take the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, first part, yes. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Satsvarūpa: It's not here. First part is not here. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā yaś . . . kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ (SB 1.2.10). Have you found? Satsvarūpa: Yes, but I . . . it's two. Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It is in the first volume. That book is not here. Devotee: Someone is bringing. Prabhupāda: So he has gone? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says: "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (aside) Read this verse. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (Vedavyāsa translates into German) *Prabhupāda: Te . . . what is that? Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā : inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being. Professor Durckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view, or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one, we are never talking about, has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That this goes together. (translates into German) Prabhupāda: Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that, "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. Professor Durckheim: (German) Vedavyāsa: He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained here, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts, but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth, but under, among us. Prabhupāda: So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he asks, is it a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot do good to others, because you do not know what is good. (laughs) You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false; therefore your conception of goodness is also false. Dr. P. J. Saher: I cannot accept that the body is false. Prabhupāda: No, no. I withdraw that word "false." But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. Just like . . . Dr. P. J. Saher: I think so. I live my identity with the body. Prabhupāda: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. Dr. P. J. Saher: I am only . . . Prabhupāda: You are simply . . . just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment; *I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. If I simply decorate this body, as the apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the . . . (chuckles) This is false attempt, that we are trying . . . this is called . . . in the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing . . . so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because, he says . . . Prabhupāda: But because he does not know that he is not this body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body. Prabhupāda: No, "remains" means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years' time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours . . . it is a question of hours and years. (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . saying that this body is . . . the soul is eminent. Prabhupāda: The soul is different from the body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of . . . actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. P. J. Saher: As long as we are alive. Vedavyāsa: "As long as we are alive we are . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (break) . . . soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He doesn't want to separate. Prabhupāda: But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives. Professor Durckheim: I think the difference is now just one, that Sir . . . (indistinct) . . . spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore. (German) Professor Porsch: May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks, "I am the spirit. I have a body," or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example: Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important . . . important . . . it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it—it is torn—you throw it away. You take another coat. *Professor Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not*-self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny. Prabhupāda: Must separate. Must separate. Professor Porsch: Either through death or destiny. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body, which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding. Professor Durckheim: (German) I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by 'realize the eternal truth'?" (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: I would like very much of . . . (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim, but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this . . . by His son. Professor Durckheim: Real life consists . . . (indistinct) . . . father by his son. That's a saying of the Gospels. That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. Dr. P. J. Saher: Back to your question. Haṁsadūta: Professor Durckheim's question was, very simply, "What is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process? Professor Durckheim: Because we would learn what's your way. Haṁsadūta: What is our process? Prabhupāda: The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth, by association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God, then gradually you become godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire: it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God, then gradually you become godly, or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (break) Professor Durckheim: . . . holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Of God. *Prabhupāda: If you don't like to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant in your own way. But chant the name of God. If you know the name of God, chant it. If you do not know, then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name, and if you don't know, then take it from me. (break) . . . explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that God has many thousands of name or God has no name. No name means He has . . . He has got so many thousands of millions of name that you cannot say: "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say: "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Kṛṣṇa . This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. I think you said the Lord Jesus Christ said: "God, hallowed be Thy name." Satsvarūpa: The Lord's Prayer, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. Professor Durckheim: (explains in German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He says from the Old Testament when Jesus said: "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name, because if we . . . Prabhupāda: So how He can be no name? He says: "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that. Vedavyāsa: But there's no name in the Bible . . . Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean . . . he might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says: "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you do not know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name? He said: "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name, but you do not know it. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to . . . Prabhupāda: Because there is name, you find out. Vedavyāsa: He said that when it says: "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So that we say, that God has no particular name. But according to His action, His name is done. Just like "Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa" is not the name. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractiveness. Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because he's man of knowledge, therefore he's called Buddha. Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached . . . Prabhupāda: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge. Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody. Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like you say: "Hallowed be thy name, president." President. Now the president has a name, but you do not know. But the president must have a name. Professor Porsch: Has the name a special, esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name . . . has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened . . . Prabhupāda: No, not hidden but open, because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute, that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute, you become purified. Professor Porsch: Like iron in fire. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's right. (break) . . . the Vedic injunction: *For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord, harer nāma, harer nāma. Harer means "Of the Lord," and nāma means "name." Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma, nāma eva kevalam : "Simply chant the Lord's name," kalau , "in this age of Kali." Nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gatir anyathā. "There is no other alternative for self*-realization, no other alternative for self-realization." Therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. Kali means the age of quarrel. The age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarreling. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth, but they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. Professor Porsch: Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God, and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German), what should be done in addition to that, or how it is, how it is formulated in the, in the total, in that complete system of your relevant teachings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the bhakti*-mārga , means the first thing is śravaṇam , hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God, we simply imagine something . . . no. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly, then you can describe to others. That is called kīrtanam. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. And when the process goes on, hearing and chanting or describing— kīrtanam means describing . . . just like our this whole Society is hearing from these books, and they're going out to describe. This is called kīrtanam . Then, by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaraṇam . That means remembering, you always associate with God. Professor Porsch: So at all times, "Remember Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pāda-sevanam; arcanaṁ vandanam , offer prayer; dāsyam , serve. In this way, there are nine different processes. Professor Porsch: We have a similar thing in the Christian in relation to (German). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . (break) Kali*-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth, but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say: "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions, and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says: "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this," is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united. But they're increasing flags, that's all. Fighting. It is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam . . . it was meant for unity, but it is rendered into fighting association, that's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, and he wants to give his perfect knowledge. *German lady: Do you mean the Kali*-yuga exists all the time? *Prabhupāda: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed . . . (break) Instead of making solution, the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma*-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth, is that from which, or from whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the . . . everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim, that if you follow these philosophical quotes, then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the Society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth, and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear . . . you do it like this." That is wanted. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . this was the always the desire of mankind and to find . . . he says the kings should be wise, and the wise men should be kings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedavyāsa: So he said that this was always the desire, but . . . Prabhupāda: But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring, but whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire in one way; I desire in my way. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . saying that knowledge is important also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described, śamo damas titikṣā, ārjava . (aside) Find out. Satsvarūpa: Yes. German lady: (German) Vedavyāsa: She says that we cannot have heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it. Prabhupāda: No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can mend, because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Translation? *Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." Prabhupāda: That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He doubts that everyone is convinced about that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Vedavyāsa: He's doubting if we should convince them of that. *Prabhupāda: Well, who is not self*-controlled, he'll not be convinced, because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control? Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is. Professor Durckheim: But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the ascetic step you get somewhere, you see, where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says: "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction, that is also perfect. But they do not follow. Professor Durckheim: They do not . . .? Prabhupāda: They do not follow. Professor Durckheim: Sure. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Otherwise, either you follow Bhagavad*-gītā or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am this," "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification, but rubber stamp. This is the defect. Professor Durckheim: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . qualifications on the material platform. Prabhupāda: First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. Just like I think in the university, if one wants to learn about law, he must be graduate first of all. Professor Porsch: In India. Yes. Prabhupāda: So you, first of all become graduate, then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa , then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa , how you can understand? (break) *Satsvarūpa: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā ) ". . . three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German translation) (break) Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the Western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never . . . but you never asked us who we are and who we should become . . . (indistinct) . . ." This is the problem. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. Professor Durckheim: (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: He said what you said, that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now . . . Prabhupāda: Actual program, the actual program is there. Dr. P. J. Saher: I would like another question. The difference, it seems to me, I know. (German) Prabhupāda: (knock on door) Later on. Later on. (break) *Vedavyāsa: He's speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization. First of all . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Vedavyāsa: We are speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing . . . if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these . . . Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. Yes. You haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will . . . you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way, they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending chant the holy name of God. So do it. (German comments) Not that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (break) Then how can I help you? There is name. You do not know. So our recommendation is—not my recommendation; *from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad*-gītā — satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty? Dr. P. J. Saher: To know the name. Because I . . . Prabhupāda: To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know, take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that? Dr. P. J. Saher: There's thousands and millions of . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: No. I said millions of names. I'm looking for the name and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. But if I've given you the name, why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: Because I'm not convinced that is the right name. Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: How can I help? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: You do not know the name. If somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take, that is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority: satataṁ kīrtayanto mām . Satsvarūpa: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) . . . and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name, and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is, how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this? Prabhupāda: But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here, there's much difference. Dr. P. J. Saher: I mean, my question only, I saw singing the people . . . Prabhupāda: No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see. Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for truth. Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate . You have to see the resultant study. Professor Porsch: I was quite surprised. Prabhupāda: Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena paricīyate , you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes. That would be the criterion for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion is, when St. Paul speaks. They had the same . . . Prabhupāda: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion, that's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. (aside) Yes, you can take. (guests taking prasādam ) Vedavyāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the business in this age: chant the holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Not now. Later on. The simplest method—chant the holy name of God. That's all. Professor Porsch: And should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference? Prabhupāda: If you chant loudly, then others can hear. They also take benefit. Vedavyāsa: Shall I translate? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: Shall I translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Even the birds and beasts, they will hear and be benefited. Professor Porsch: (German) Prabhupāda: Therefore loud chanting is recommended, so that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. Professor Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below (in temple room). Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. (chuckles) One Christian priest—I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii—so he came to talk with me. He inquired, "Swāmījī, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes. Professor Porsch: Without drugs. Prabhupāda: Yes. And one Christian priest, he showed one pamphlet that, "These boys, they're our boys, but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it?" He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church, but it was not going on; it was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of . . . the same men, the same place. The crowd is so . . . why? I have not brought all these men from India. Just judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations—they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these . . . they have given up everything. Professor Durckheim: And they are working in the Society. They are working . . . Prabhupāda: We are working. We are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: We have no other . . . even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income? There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA . . ." What is this? (laughter) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that "We have no information that these people are CIA, but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution." That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very . . . if you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vṛndāvana center and Navadvīpa center, not less than 200 men are there, always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: Here is a girl, Kausalyā. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married, she's happy, she has everything there. Life is there. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. Satsvarūpa: May we take your leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. You sit down. I have no need . . . I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Kṛṣṇa's talk, that is your . . . (indistinct) . . . already. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why do you stop? Satatam . Go on, continuous. What is that? Satatam means? Satsvarūpa: Always? *Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ, namasyantaś ca mām . . . (BG 9.14). Professor Porsch: In what way can we support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can we offer optimal benefit to your movement? Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Professor Porsch: No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes. We have got a Life Membership program which can be . . . (indistinct) . . . can participate in that way. Prabhupāda: You can become a Life Member and read all these books and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there is no material loss on your part. But if there is any gain, why don't you take it? *Professor Porsch: No, my question was perhaps a little . . . not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions, and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad*-gītā in this form, in such ways, perhaps? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are writing these books for distribution. Professor Porsch: Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Professor Porsch: Yes, good for what is . . . I was very . . . Prabhupāda: Here is my Dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books. *Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad*-gītā , Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: And what is the number of books sold last year? Satsvarūpa: Four million. Prabhupāda: Four million copies. Professor Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our . . . or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such, but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a first university in the tradition of the ancient times. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Porsch: A kind of a university of . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Professor Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences. *Prabhupāda: My idea is that all our centers should be self*-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go hundred miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New . . . West Virginia, Virginia. And similarly in other centers we are producing our food, grains—grains, vegetable, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animal. That we don't do. Professor Porsch: But will this center also be a kind of a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Professor Porsch: Yes. That is important. Prabhupāda: We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Yes. Professor Porsch: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (aside) You can play a little record. Last night . . . Haṁsadūta: This morning's recording? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Porsch: May I please ask, are there also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names? Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are exercising by dancing. Professor Porsch: Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupāda singing is played) Prabhupāda: Make little louder. (tape of Prabhupāda singing prayers to the six Gosvāmīs plays) What are these pictures? Haṁsadūta: These are pictures of our Society's activities in the temples. Professor Porsch: Very constructive and very . . . so much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-seven. Professor Porsch: And during the Bangladesh crisis you also . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone came, we feed. That much . . . there were many refugees, so we fed them. Professor Porsch: But that automatically answers the question of the gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see . . . Prabhupāda: No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also; there is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Māyāpur center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included. Professor Porsch: Included. German lady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food—everything. Professor Porsch: I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture can unite. This is the only place, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. (break) . . . distinction. Devotee: (showing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books) This is German. This is in Spanish, Chinese. Professor Porsch: (indistinct) . . . Chinese. Prabhupāda: Japanese also. And Hindi. Devotee: Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati. Professor Porsch: But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German) Prabhupāda: Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children. *Professor Porsch: And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "Easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by*-product, not a main aim . . . *Prabhupāda: No. We are teaching . . . of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil . . . we don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā , to inquire about the Absolute Truth. *Professor Porsch: So can you not say that this knowledge is an ātma*-vidyā , that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the ātman ? Prabhupāda: Ātmine ? Professor Porsch: Ātmā , self. *Prabhupāda: Oh, ātmā , yes. Tattva*-jijñāsā means ātma-jijñāsā . *Professor Porsch: That is why it is also correct to translate the term kṛṣṇa*-arjuna-saṁvara as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge. Prabhupāda: (aside) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical—everything is there. Professor Porsch: In the *Gītā* it also, a verse that, "Four kinds of persons seek Me." *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). Professor Porsch: "The man who seeks knowledge." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, catur*-vidhā . And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidhā . No. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Everything is there. *Professor Porsch: But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of . . . where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non*-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and we were . . . people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness . They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German). Professor Durckheim: But this time is over. Professor Porsch: Yes, yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: The modern times are not modern anymore. Professor Porsch: I agree with you, but just think how the world was only a few years ago. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational spirit, the really German tradition is the irrational. Professor Porsch: Yes, yes. I agree. Professor Durckheim: So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly. Prabhupāda: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on. Changing. Professor Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street . . . I don't mean . . . yes, of course, it was in the Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the . . . Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes. Professor Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German). (break) Professor Durckheim: . . . I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants, I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is . . . Prabhupāda: No, we invite everyone. Professor Durckheim: You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the Ober-(German) from Baden Wurttemberg, he is a Life Member. And all people . . . Devotee: We have doctors, lawyers . . . Professor Durckheim: He's simply a member? Haṁsadūta: Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and here as a member. But his lifestyle is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (end) (Conversation with Professor Durckheim, Dr. P. J. Saher and Professor Porsch) Professor Durckheim: . . . and to write books, and people came, and today we have there what you would call a little āśrama , mostly about fifty, sixty persons living there, coming, going; no patients, just people who try to discover their real self, nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That's our work we are trying to do. Prabhupāda: So Absolute Truth is realized in three aspect: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Some realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, others realize the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, and the final realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are cultivating the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So which aspect you are cultivating: the Paramātmā or the impersonal Brahman or the Personality of Godhead? Professor Durckheim: You can't help cultivate all three in the long run. Prabhupāda: No, all three are one. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: All three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain—somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place—everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India—or everywhere—some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness. Professor Durckheim: As Buddhists do. Prabhupāda: Buddhists, they, I think, they . . . yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa . Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization. Professor Durckheim: To stop the? Prabhupāda: Realization. To become zero. Is not that? Professor Durckheim: To become? I didn't understand. Prabhupāda: Zero. Devotee: Zero. Professor Durckheim: Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of view of the old ego it's zero, but this zero is everything from . . . (indistinct) . . . from the point of view of the natural ego it's zero and once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. It's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety; and some, localized Paramātmā; and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man: first of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating in healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa , negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong? Professor Durckheim: You are certainly right. We see the . . . it is a big . . . in our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality. Prabhupāda: Yes, different it is. The same example as I gave you: in diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception. Professor Durckheim: The dead. Person who is dead. Prabhupāda: We take this body—dead always. This body is actually dead. Just like this microphone is made of iron. It is iron. When it is working, responding, at that time also it is iron. And when it is out of order, does not work, it is also iron. Similarly, this body is working on account of the living force within. When the living force is out, it is called dead. But actually it is dead always. The living force is the important thing. That is making him alive. Actually, alive or dead, it is dead matter. But the living force is the active principle. That is distinguishing this body as dead or alive. But factually it is dead always. *That is the beginning of instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā : "Arjuna, you are lamenting for this body, but the body is dead." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So unless we know that . . . (aside) Don't make cut-cut . The dead body is not the subject matter of study, either it is in working order or it is in dead order. The subject matter of study is the active principle which makes the dead body moving. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā . (aside) Read that portion. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "The Blessed Lord said, While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." Prabhupāda: What is your opinion about this? Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter but makes matter alive? Prabhupāda: That active principle, life, or living soul. Professor Durckheim: Yes, how do you make them . . . Devotee: How do you teach them? Professor Durckheim: . . . teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel? Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be, "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā . First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is un . . . aware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy. Professor Durckheim: No, that's quite clear. *Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad*-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking, I am asking my student, "Come here," he comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"—he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question still? It is quite clear for our rational mind: I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, let's say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion. Because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says . . . talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says: "Well, you must make exercises . . ." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom. *Prabhupāda: No, as I say, the active principle . . . I am also the active principle, that active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham. So 'ham , "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self*-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54): "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly," prasannātmā . He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : "He is equal to everyone—man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54): "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all . . . just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized, because he has understood "What I am." Yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that, "I am part and parcel of God, so my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service. Professor Durckheim: I say, Master, that when you say he knows, you don't speak about this knowledge. Prabhupāda: Which knowledge? Professor Durckheim: You came already . . . you say: "Believe, and by this know that I am participating in the great divine person." And yet I didn't experience it. *Prabhupāda: Why not experience? He knows that, "I am that active principle." Everyone knows that, "I am not this body." When I say: "This is my finger," I don't say "I finger." So "I," what "I am"? That realization, self*-realization that, "I am part and parcel of God," so that he knows that, "I am part and parcel of God. So therefore my duty is to serve God." So they are engaged in serving God. *So this serving God, or devotional service, is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) Find out that verse, that: *So unless one is self*-realized, he cannot be engaged in the service of the Supreme Self. Ordinarily, a master and a servant, a servant knows that "I am engaged by the master. He is giving me food, he is giving me shelter—he is giving me everything for his serving." So he is careful in his service. This is a material example. Similarly, self-realization, ultimately, as I told you, that first impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then the yogīs , they realize the localized Paramātmā. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , they observe the Supersoul within himself, and they meditate upon Him. (aside) What is that verse? Satsvarūpa: Translation: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: This is our process. Professor Durckheim: A long way to get there. Prabhupāda: And the process is going on. The chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, by this process they fully realize that the master, the Supreme Being, and engages himself always. These European, American boy, they are all educated. Not . . . in your country, of course, the young men . . . Professor Durckheim: They are educated too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? (break) "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin A, B, C, D. And why should you kill animals? Why should we give trouble to the others?" This is self*-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same, the body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: Well, may I put a question, Master? On the way there should be progress, inner progress. How to realize that there is a progress? I would say one thing is very important. There are three sufferings in the world of mankind: fear of annihilation, despair if you are taken by something which is absurd, and loneliness, if you are alone. These three sufferings in the world for the natural being. I realize that you make a decisive step on your inner way when you feel life in the very moment when you have to die, when you feel the great meaning in the very moment when you are just having despair, and when you feel the great love of the person God exactly while you are lonely in the world. And I have realized that we are now in a very decisive moment in the Western world because for the first time in the history of mankind, the Western people, in Europe and the States, start to take seriously certain experiences, inner experiences, where this truth is revealed. In all times, as far as I see, the great condition of the East, they knew about those experiences where death loses its terrifying character and becomes the threshold to some bigger life. And I always see with also my disciples, as soon as they learn to go through some kind of death, they awake on a new level. So I will say if people are in my place and after a week they still sleep very well, then I have made a mistake. About that sleep, just to realize something in overcoming their usual needs, their usual fears, their usual habits, in order to touch inwardly another level, and then suddenly they realize there is some quite different principle at work as they see usually in their natural mind. Prabhupāda: So that different principle, for a devotee, is already realized. Because a devotee never thinks of this body that, "I am this body." He thinks "I am . . ." ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am spirit soul." So without that realization, there is no question of devotional life. So that is first understood. That instruction is being given by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna that, "You are considering very seriously on this body, but a learned man does not take this body very seriously, either dead or alive." That is the first realization. So everyone in this world, they are concerned with this body, dead or alive. When alive, they take care of the body in so many ways, and when dead they erect big statue upon it. So that realization is this body. When it is alive, very nicely dressed, nicely groomed, nicely everything on account of this body, and when dead, then again the statue, the tomb, that's all, but missing the active principle. He is taking care of this body even after death by erecting very nice memorial, but he has no knowledge where the active principle has lost. That is ignorance. Professor Durckheim: When I was a young man, I was four years in the World War. Prabhupāda: Four years. *Professor Durckheim: Four years. Forty*-eight months almost in the foremost front. And I was one of the two officers . . . Prabhupāda: In First World War? First World War? Professor Durckheim: World War I, 1914 to 1918. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I was one of the two officers who were not wounded in my regiment. And there I met death again and again. And I saw people just killed next to me. Suddenly it was out. It was just only, as you say, the body without soul. But I realized also, in myself, that when death was near and you had accepted death, accepted to die, then you realized something which has nothing to do whatsoever with death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: So this marked me very much. It's the very beginning of my inner way, these four years of World War. *Prabhupāda: There is a verse, nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). If one is God-realized soul, he is not afraid of anything. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. So actually, if one is self-realized, he is no more fearful or concerned with the bodily necessities of life. That is liberation. Just like as you mentioned sleeping. Sleeping also, a bodily necessity. When you are tired, you sleep. That is bodily necessity. But it is not spiritually necessary. About the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau : "Conquered over sleeping, eating, mating." That is also one of the symptoms of self-realization. These things are necessities of the body. So the more one is advanced in self-realization, these things will be minimized: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. And gradually it will come to nil, because this is bodily necessities. Self, the active principle, that is different. The active principle, necessity is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. But these are bodily necessities: eating, sleeping, mating. So, so long this body is there, of course, we must eat, we must sleep. That is required. But the more we advance, these necessities diminished. Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Then sleeping will be considered a waste of time. A self-realized man goes to sleep, he thinks that, "I am going to waste so much time, because still I am subjected to the necessities of this body." He regrets. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a sequence of experiences, isn't it, of inner experiences? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a progress of inner experiences. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I do believe that at the actual moment still, the treasure in the European peoples, the different peoples who went through the war, through concentration camps, through battlefields and bombing nights, are hidden in their hearts certain moments when death was near and they were wounded and nearly torn in pieces. Because they had a certain experience they survived. And again and again, when I give a lecture, I have two or three people waiting, telling me, "Now you just reminded me an experience long ago, ten days ago, two months ago, when I thought I was a little bit crazy, and now I understand it has been the experience, perhaps the most important of my life, on which I should have built my future inner way." And these experiences are still there. And once people understand, they don't need a war and a battleship and a concentration camp and a bombing night to take serious certain inner experiences when they are suddenly are touched by this divine reality, and they suddenly feel that this bodily existence is not lasting at all. Prabhupāda: That's it. That we can experience every night. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. *Prabhupāda: When you dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So, and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such*-and-such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually, I am different from the mind. And that is self-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). (aside) Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ . That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he, the soul, is even higher than the intelligence." Prabhupāda: This is description. Professor Durckheim: May I put a question, sir, to the question of time, the meaning of time? I think there are two ways to look at time and to look at eternity. Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. Time is eternal, but we calculate time, past and present and future, according to my temporary material existence. Just like a small ant—the ant's past and present is different from my past and present. Professor Durckheim: Is different from . . .? Prabhupāda: My past and present. I am a human being. I live for hundred years. So my past and present is different from the ant who lives for, say, a few hours. Professor Durckheim: Is different from? Prabhupāda: From the ant, a small living entity. And similarly, Brahmā, his past, present is different because he has done millions and millions of years as one day. So the time is eternal, but according to our condition, occupying the time and space, we calculate past and present and future. Otherwise time itself is eternal. Professor Durckheim: Well, now I question you. You see, talking about eternity, there are two meanings or concepts at the same time. The one is that the finite life is going on infinitely, infinity, millions of year. That is one way to think about eternity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: But there is another one. Prabhupāda: Eternity means, we say, no beginning, no end. That is eternity. Professor Durckheim: Isn't there also this other one, when, for instance, Christ says: "I am before Abraham was"? This "I am." There is one kind of eternity which has nothing to do with past and future at all, which is beyond past and future. Prabhupāda: Past and future is concerned with this body. Professor Durckheim: Is concerned with this body. It is concerned, exactly, with this body and with this ego, with regard to which there is a "before" and an "after," an "up" and "down." And if you take away this ego, what's there? What's left? *Prabhupāda: That is pure ego. Now I am born Indian, say, seventy*-five years ago, or seventy-eight years ago, and I have got this Indian body, I have got this false ego that, "I am Indian, I am this body." This is misconception. Professor Durckheim: That is one way to look at time. But it's not the . . . Prabhupāda: Time is there, but because I have got this temporary body, I am thinking past, present, future. The temporary body will be vanished. I shall get another temporary body. Then again my begins past and present. So therefore this is called illusion. Time is eternal. It has no beginning, no end, but we transmigrate from one body to another. We are calculating, miscalculating, past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: Yes, time has no beginning and no end. But time in this second sense has nothing to do with beginning and end. Prabhupāda: It has no end . . . beginning, no end. The beginning and end is of this body. And in relationship with this body, we are calculating past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body. Prabhupāda: I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become . . . Prabhupāda: No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man. I am very . . ." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting, "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am śūdra "—so many designation. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity. Professor Durckheim: But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure. Prabhupāda: The consciousness is covered by impurity, just like your health is covered by disease, and the symptom is fever. But that is a covering. That is not your healthy state. Similarly, my consciousness, when I think that, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," that is impurity. And when he thinks that, "I am neither German, neither American, nor this nor that—I am part and parcel of God," that is pure consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But in order to get there, to feel that one is neither this nor that, one must have suffered by first having thought that one is this or that. Prabhupāda: That suffering is just like you suffer in the dream. You are attacked by a tiger. There is no tiger. Actually there is no suffering. But on account of ignorance, you are thinking, "The tiger is eating me." Professor Durckheim: Yes, but this is a very good example, because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience is also material. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dream and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane. That, it is stated: *So we have to transcend the platform of intelligence also. Then we come to the platform of spiritual realization. That is instructed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) What happened to your eyes? Devotee: I was cut. Prabhupāda: How? Devotee: I was in an automobile accident. Prabhupāda: Oh. Haṁsadūta: But he's all right. Prabhupāda: Others also? Haṁsadūta: No it's. It's just a cut here. *Prabhupāda: So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to real consciousness. That real consciousness is that, "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight because you designated yourself that, "I am German." This is an example that, "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self*-realization. *Just like the Arjuna. Arjuna was put into the ba . . . you have read Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, this Bhagavad-gītā ? Professor Durckheim: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he was thinking in terms of designation that, "I am . . . I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin*-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first thing, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , when he understood that, "I am not this body; *I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self*-realization, not for this body. *Professor Durckheim: No.There is only one way to world peace: through self*-realization of those who are responsible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Self*-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should understand that, "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany," "This is England," "This is France," "This is India," "This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean" and "This is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding that, "Nothing belongs to us . . ." The United Nation, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground, because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace. *Professor Durckheim: As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the high priest, now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu after the other one. Only one resisted, in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said: "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword master asked him—he was a realized man—"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said: "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said: "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self*-realized man, said: "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize, that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that. So if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful. *Professor Durckheim: In my work I always feel the great difficulty again and again, sir, and is always there. It's a great difference to believe that you are the son of God and to feel it and to experience it. As long it's only a belief, it's well*-meaning doing. How to prepare the conditions by which disciples might feel it? That's all of my daily work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like . . . it is very simple thing. Just like if I say . . . suppose you have not seen your father—you are posthumous child—but you must believe that there is father. Without father there is no possibility of my existence. That is belief. And in the Christian . . . Professor Durckheim: Experience it. *Prabhupāda: This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily . . . father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this: *Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "I am the seed*-giving father of all living entities in different forms of life." Professor Durckheim: There is one difficulty in the Western part of the world which might not be so great in the Eastern part. If . . . I realize in Japan, when they talk about father and mother, especially also mother, it was all something to be loved, to be grateful, to submit. In our countries now, the father is generally the one who does not understand anymore his son, and the son has to get rid of his body father in order to be able to realize himself. So very often the main obstacle in our youth is the image of mother and father, because they have never understood their children. So the word father for many people in the Western part of the world . . . Prabhupāda: Misunderstood. Professor Durckheim: Is a misunder . . . is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today. I have to very much . . . Prabhupāda: It is not religion; it is fact. It is not . . . religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son . . . without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. Yes. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son. Or more son. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment. Professor Durckheim: It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says: "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that . . . the Christians, so*-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say: "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that, "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that, "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact. He is the supreme father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. (aside) Read that śloka . Satsvarūpa: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: Just see. Professor Durckheim: Wonderful. *Prabhupāda: Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated, in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self*-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facilities to the human being, not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. "National" means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of national. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all . . . everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that, "I am this body." But when we understand that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self-realization. Professor Durckheim: And this understanding has to be an experience. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is experienced, but on account of his foolishness he is thinking otherwise. He knows that, "I am not this body. I am now in this body of an old man, but I was not in this body, say, fifty years ago. Therefore I am not this body, that body or this body. I am different from the body." This is very easy experience. I am existing. I understand that I existed in a baby's body, I existed in a child's body, boy's body. So I have now changed so many bodies. Therefore I am not this body. Just like you dress. You are now in black coat, and next moment you can be in other color. But you are not this coat; *you have changed the coat. Similarly, I have changed the body, but I am not this body. This is self*-realization. First of all let me know that, "I am not this body, I am living within this body." You are not this coat. If I ask you, "Mr. Black Coat" that is my foolishness. You are neither black coat or white coat. And that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: And yet isn't there difficulty? You can already have understood very well that you are not the body, but as long, for instance, as you have still fear of death, you didn't understand by experience. As soon as you understood by experience, you have no fear of death because you know that you can't die. Prabhupāda: So experience is received by higher knowledge. Experience means higher knowledge. Just like a child . . . Professor Durckheim: Experience means . . .? Prabhupāda: Higher knowledge. Higher knowledge. Professor Durckheim: As soon as you have the experience, you get the higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the more you are highly elevated in knowledge, your experience is perfect. Professor Durckheim: I would like to say the other way around: As more as you are advanced in experience, the more you have higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: But experience, it may be slow. But higher knowledge you can get immediately. Professor Durckheim: Yes. Like flash. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . Professor Durckheim: When it's awakening. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that you are not this body. So instead of my experiencing for years and years that, "I am not this body," we take the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect, and my experience is now received. Professor Durckheim: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru . That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . Now, Who is guru ? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru , śrotriyam , who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru . Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru , he is not guru . This is called guru-paramparā , disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our . . . (aside) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. Yes. So I am always inexperienced, because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. He asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone." That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge. You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. *We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because the source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God, and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God, who has come directly from Him, the same. So . . . but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure. Not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him, and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). This is . . . evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside) Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science, as it is, appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: That's it. Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the Western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Professor Durckheim: You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our Western, as you know better than I do, in our Western mankind . . . and they say: "Well, after all . . ." You see, science, they say: "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said: "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me, you have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31): "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life." Professor Durckheim: No, nothing. *Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatim . Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ : "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very, quite visible in the Western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā . That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha . The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the . . . Professor Durckheim: They won't move at all, blind . . . Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are being frustrated. Professor Durckheim: There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question, which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question. Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end . . . Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna , or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into . . . Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than . . . lower animals—birds, beast and other—they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating. Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being, we are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have no even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice, nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die; then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense even. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars—war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only . . . without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living, "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that, "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that, "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live, and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cow dung, we have stacked here. I have seen. They are also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. Buddhism, there is no animal killing, although they are now killing animals. But originally Buddha religion means nonviolence. Also Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā . So in no religion unnecessary killing of animal is allowed. Even in Muhammadans, they are also . . . Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted. Professor Durckheim: May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away? Prabhupāda: No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientist . . . Professor Durckheim: That's what I mean. Prabhupāda: . . . Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose. The trees have got sensation. Professor Durckheim: So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree . . . Prabhupāda: No, we don't kill. You take the fruits. Professor Durckheim: We cut it. Prabhupāda: Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary. Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra : *That "Those who have no hands"—that means animals—"they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four*-legged." Just like grass has no leg, but it is a food for the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, nunam mahatām tatra , "Then one who is powerful, very powerful . . ." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the . . . that is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. *But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda . So Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me these foodstuff." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra , to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization. Not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy. Yes. Haṁsadūta: There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening. Prabhupāda: No, let them come here. (break) We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: I have published about fourteen books like this. Professor Durckheim: Incredible. Incredible. What a thing! Prabhupāda: (guests enter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You can put this side. German devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Saher. He is the leader of the Society of Yoga and Integral Philosophical Studies in Germany. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. (laughter and indistinct background comments) So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. (devotee translates into German for guests) I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment . . . not at the present moment; *always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is . . . (break) . . . then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). That is one. (aside) You serve it out. *So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one: to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self*-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozens. But our only writing is the goal of life: Kṛṣṇa. Professor Durckheim: May I come back once to my question, Master, the relationship between belief and experience? Because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks. Prabhupāda: No, believe the authority. That is the . . . that is better than experience. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And that is what in our country is . . . I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on. Prabhupāda: (aside) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief . . . Professor Durckheim: They realize that now belief, which is not faith, has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts. And they don't believe what you tell them; they just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a . . . big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. (to guest) That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so? Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that . . . first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas , that is perfect. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge— Veda , Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge—so that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas , just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually, these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question, Master? You see, the belief, the understanding, is always depending on the level of the one who wants to understand, and that's the level of our quite natural, normal mind of the usual general person. And there is another level, where certain experiences open the door to some deeper consciousness. And, as you know, one of the key words of the Christian religion is, in the Gospels, that you have to turn around, to make annoia , to pierce through a certain skin to get quite another level. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And from this level the heaven opens to those who didn't understand what the heaven means. They thought it was behind the clouds. You see, there is a natural way to look at God, and this natural way to look at God is lost as soon as people go through the rational mind. And then there is no other way out but to have a personal, initiated experience. We talk about initiation when people are capable to go through a certain death and to discover another level, and only . . . and so, the great wisdom which you are talking about, I am sure that it also touches people on two levels. There is the ordinary man, and he might believe, but there is a deeper level, where things start to change yourself, to transform yourself in deeper experiences. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . that is the beginning of instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct background comments) The beginning of knowledge . . . German lady: Excuse me. Would you please explain for some people who don't speak English here, in German, because we don't know all of your words? Professor Durckheim: Yes, but I didn't want to interrupt the Master. Prabhupāda: No. I have no objection if somebody translates into German. Haṁsadūta: Vedavyāsa can translate. (German) Professor Durckheim: Do you permit me to repeat it in German? For those who are present here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: (German) (break) Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding: Yes. What is the translation? *Satsvarūpa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: And now . . . Haṁsadūta: (to devotee) You want to translate? Translate. (devotee translates into German from this point) *Prabhupāda: Yes, translate. This is the basic principle of knowledge that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge that, "I am not this . . ." At the present moment everything . . . that I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self*-interest means this bodily interest. *(aside) Explain this. (German translation) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that, "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform—what is knowledge? First of all one must know that, "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book, Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the Western world an opposition from the Christian side, where the key word is that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh? Prabhupāda: That's all right. We accept it. Professor Durckheim: The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (repeats in German) Prabhupāda: Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said? Professor Durckheim: Spirit? You see I have very often . . . I saw the difference. Haṁsadūta: The spirit becomes the flesh. Professor Durckheim: The spirit becomes flesh. Prabhupāda: That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin, and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand it. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. (to professor) I think I have understood your point? Professor Durckheim: Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me—I might be wrong—that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think, that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (repeats in German) Prabhupāda: Now, what is our suffering? Professor Durckheim: I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad*-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not? Professor Durckheim: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life, I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated: birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem. Professor Durckheim: Through many lives. Prabhupāda: Many life or this life. In this life you understand that, "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately. Professor Durckheim: May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No. Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. Professor Durckheim: (translates question into German) German lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christian? Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians, who also certainly want to become independent from this body, which wants material life only. Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or . . . knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge . . . Vedavyāsa: I think I should translate, Prabhupāda. (German) Prabhupāda: Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Muhammadan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge, we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. Professor Durckheim: (translates) (break) Vedavyāsa: (translating question) . . . stress on this point, that we are existing in a body but we should accept our existence as human being. Prabhupāda: Existence as human being you want? So do you think human being is existing in this body is perfect? (Vedavyāsa translates questions and answers from this point) Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I don't say it is perfect. (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says yes, he accepts that our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the ideal should be how to become perfect. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he asks, "How to become perfect: as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem, how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit. Prabhupāda: Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people. Prabhupāda: So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk, " Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu. " Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He thinks there's a great difference between the talking of birds and bees and our talking. Prabhupāda: Why difference? They are talking in their community; you are talking in your community. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) *Haṁsadūta: No, he has said a very good point. He said there is a difference, because an animal has no self*-consciousness. He does not understand what he is in essence. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real point. Dr. P. J. Saher: I communicate myself, but . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the real point, that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts. Therefore the Brahma*-sūtra , Vedānta-sūtra , instructs in the beginning, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit, or Absolute Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. (aside) You take the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, first part, yes. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Satsvarūpa: It's not here. First part is not here. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā yaś . . . kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ (SB 1.2.10). Have you found? Satsvarūpa: Yes, but I . . . it's two. Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It is in the first volume. That book is not here. Devotee: Someone is bringing. Prabhupāda: So he has gone? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says: "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (aside) Read this verse. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (Vedavyāsa translates into German) *Prabhupāda: Te . . . what is that? Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā : inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being. Professor Durckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view, or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one, we are never talking about, has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That this goes together. (translates into German) Prabhupāda: Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that, "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. Professor Durckheim: (German) Vedavyāsa: He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained here, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts, but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth, but under, among us. Prabhupāda: So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he asks, is it a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot do good to others, because you do not know what is good. (laughs) You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false; therefore your conception of goodness is also false. Dr. P. J. Saher: I cannot accept that the body is false. Prabhupāda: No, no. I withdraw that word "false." But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. Just like . . . Dr. P. J. Saher: I think so. I live my identity with the body. Prabhupāda: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. Dr. P. J. Saher: I am only . . . Prabhupāda: You are simply . . . just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment; *I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. If I simply decorate this body, as the apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the . . . (chuckles) This is false attempt, that we are trying . . . this is called . . . in the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing . . . so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because, he says . . . Prabhupāda: But because he does not know that he is not this body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body. Prabhupāda: No, "remains" means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years' time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours . . . it is a question of hours and years. (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . saying that this body is . . . the soul is eminent. Prabhupāda: The soul is different from the body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of . . . actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. P. J. Saher: As long as we are alive. Vedavyāsa: "As long as we are alive we are . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (break) . . . soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He doesn't want to separate. Prabhupāda: But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives. Professor Durckheim: I think the difference is now just one, that Sir . . . (indistinct) . . . spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore. (German) Professor Porsch: May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks, "I am the spirit. I have a body," or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example: Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important . . . important . . . it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it—it is torn—you throw it away. You take another coat. *Professor Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not*-self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny. Prabhupāda: Must separate. Must separate. Professor Porsch: Either through death or destiny. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body, which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding. Professor Durckheim: (German) I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by 'realize the eternal truth'?" (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: I would like very much of . . . (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim, but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this . . . by His son. Professor Durckheim: Real life consists . . . (indistinct) . . . father by his son. That's a saying of the Gospels. That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. Dr. P. J. Saher: Back to your question. Haṁsadūta: Professor Durckheim's question was, very simply, "What is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process? Professor Durckheim: Because we would learn what's your way. Haṁsadūta: What is our process? Prabhupāda: The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth, by association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God, then gradually you become godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire: it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God, then gradually you become godly, or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (break) Professor Durckheim: . . . holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Of God. *Prabhupāda: If you don't like to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant in your own way. But chant the name of God. If you know the name of God, chant it. If you do not know, then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name, and if you don't know, then take it from me. (break) . . . explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that God has many thousands of name or God has no name. No name means He has . . . He has got so many thousands of millions of name that you cannot say: "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say: "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Kṛṣṇa . This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. I think you said the Lord Jesus Christ said: "God, hallowed be Thy name." Satsvarūpa: The Lord's Prayer, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. Professor Durckheim: (explains in German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He says from the Old Testament when Jesus said: "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name, because if we . . . Prabhupāda: So how He can be no name? He says: "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that. Vedavyāsa: But there's no name in the Bible . . . Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean . . . he might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says: "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you do not know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name? He said: "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name, but you do not know it. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to . . . Prabhupāda: Because there is name, you find out. Vedavyāsa: He said that when it says: "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So that we say, that God has no particular name. But according to His action, His name is done. Just like "Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa" is not the name. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractiveness. Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because he's man of knowledge, therefore he's called Buddha. Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached . . . Prabhupāda: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge. Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody. Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like you say: "Hallowed be thy name, president." President. Now the president has a name, but you do not know. But the president must have a name. Professor Porsch: Has the name a special, esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name . . . has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened . . . Prabhupāda: No, not hidden but open, because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute, that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute, you become purified. Professor Porsch: Like iron in fire. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's right. (break) . . . the Vedic injunction: *For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord, harer nāma, harer nāma. Harer means "Of the Lord," and nāma means "name." Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma, nāma eva kevalam : "Simply chant the Lord's name," kalau , "in this age of Kali." Nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gatir anyathā. "There is no other alternative for self*-realization, no other alternative for self-realization." Therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. Kali means the age of quarrel. The age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarreling. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth, but they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. Professor Porsch: Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God, and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German), what should be done in addition to that, or how it is, how it is formulated in the, in the total, in that complete system of your relevant teachings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the bhakti*-mārga , means the first thing is śravaṇam , hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God, we simply imagine something . . . no. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly, then you can describe to others. That is called kīrtanam. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. And when the process goes on, hearing and chanting or describing— kīrtanam means describing . . . just like our this whole Society is hearing from these books, and they're going out to describe. This is called kīrtanam . Then, by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaraṇam . That means remembering, you always associate with God. Professor Porsch: So at all times, "Remember Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pāda-sevanam; arcanaṁ vandanam , offer prayer; dāsyam , serve. In this way, there are nine different processes. Professor Porsch: We have a similar thing in the Christian in relation to (German). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . (break) Kali*-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth, but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say: "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions, and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says: "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this," is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united. But they're increasing flags, that's all. Fighting. It is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam . . . it was meant for unity, but it is rendered into fighting association, that's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, and he wants to give his perfect knowledge. *German lady: Do you mean the Kali*-yuga exists all the time? *Prabhupāda: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed . . . (break) Instead of making solution, the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma*-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth, is that from which, or from whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the . . . everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim, that if you follow these philosophical quotes, then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the Society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth, and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear . . . you do it like this." That is wanted. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . this was the always the desire of mankind and to find . . . he says the kings should be wise, and the wise men should be kings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedavyāsa: So he said that this was always the desire, but . . . Prabhupāda: But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring, but whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire in one way; I desire in my way. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . saying that knowledge is important also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described, śamo damas titikṣā, ārjava . (aside) Find out. Satsvarūpa: Yes. German lady: (German) Vedavyāsa: She says that we cannot have heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it. Prabhupāda: No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can mend, because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Translation? *Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." Prabhupāda: That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He doubts that everyone is convinced about that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Vedavyāsa: He's doubting if we should convince them of that. *Prabhupāda: Well, who is not self*-controlled, he'll not be convinced, because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control? Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is. Professor Durckheim: But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the ascetic step you get somewhere, you see, where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says: "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction, that is also perfect. But they do not follow. Professor Durckheim: They do not . . .? Prabhupāda: They do not follow. Professor Durckheim: Sure. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Otherwise, either you follow Bhagavad*-gītā or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am this," "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification, but rubber stamp. This is the defect. Professor Durckheim: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . qualifications on the material platform. Prabhupāda: First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. Just like I think in the university, if one wants to learn about law, he must be graduate first of all. Professor Porsch: In India. Yes. Prabhupāda: So you, first of all become graduate, then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa , then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa , how you can understand? (break) *Satsvarūpa: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā ) ". . . three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German translation) (break) Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the Western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never . . . but you never asked us who we are and who we should become . . . (indistinct) . . ." This is the problem. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. Professor Durckheim: (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: He said what you said, that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now . . . Prabhupāda: Actual program, the actual program is there. Dr. P. J. Saher: I would like another question. The difference, it seems to me, I know. (German) Prabhupāda: (knock on door) Later on. Later on. (break) *Vedavyāsa: He's speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization. First of all . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Vedavyāsa: We are speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing . . . if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these . . . Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. Yes. You haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will . . . you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way, they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending chant the holy name of God. So do it. (German comments) Not that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (break) Then how can I help you? There is name. You do not know. So our recommendation is—not my recommendation; *from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad*-gītā — satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty? Dr. P. J. Saher: To know the name. Because I . . . Prabhupāda: To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know, take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that? Dr. P. J. Saher: There's thousands and millions of . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: No. I said millions of names. I'm looking for the name and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. But if I've given you the name, why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: Because I'm not convinced that is the right name. Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: How can I help? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: You do not know the name. If somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take, that is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority: satataṁ kīrtayanto mām . Satsvarūpa: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) . . . and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name, and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is, how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this? Prabhupāda: But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here, there's much difference. Dr. P. J. Saher: I mean, my question only, I saw singing the people . . . Prabhupāda: No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see. Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for truth. Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate . You have to see the resultant study. Professor Porsch: I was quite surprised. Prabhupāda: Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena paricīyate , you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes. That would be the criterion for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion is, when St. Paul speaks. They had the same . . . Prabhupāda: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion, that's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. (aside) Yes, you can take. (guests taking prasādam ) Vedavyāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the business in this age: chant the holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Not now. Later on. The simplest method—chant the holy name of God. That's all. Professor Porsch: And should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference? Prabhupāda: If you chant loudly, then others can hear. They also take benefit. Vedavyāsa: Shall I translate? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: Shall I translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Even the birds and beasts, they will hear and be benefited. Professor Porsch: (German) Prabhupāda: Therefore loud chanting is recommended, so that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. Professor Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below (in temple room). Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. (chuckles) One Christian priest—I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii—so he came to talk with me. He inquired, "Swāmījī, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes. Professor Porsch: Without drugs. Prabhupāda: Yes. And one Christian priest, he showed one pamphlet that, "These boys, they're our boys, but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it?" He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church, but it was not going on; it was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of . . . the same men, the same place. The crowd is so . . . why? I have not brought all these men from India. Just judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations—they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these . . . they have given up everything. Professor Durckheim: And they are working in the Society. They are working . . . Prabhupāda: We are working. We are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: We have no other . . . even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income? There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA . . ." What is this? (laughter) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that "We have no information that these people are CIA, but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution." That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very . . . if you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vṛndāvana center and Navadvīpa center, not less than 200 men are there, always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: Here is a girl, Kausalyā. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married, she's happy, she has everything there. Life is there. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. Satsvarūpa: May we take your leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. You sit down. I have no need . . . I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Kṛṣṇa's talk, that is your . . . (indistinct) . . . already. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why do you stop? Satatam . Go on, continuous. What is that? Satatam means? Satsvarūpa: Always? *Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ, namasyantaś ca mām . . . (BG 9.14). Professor Porsch: In what way can we support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can we offer optimal benefit to your movement? Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Professor Porsch: No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes. We have got a Life Membership program which can be . . . (indistinct) . . . can participate in that way. Prabhupāda: You can become a Life Member and read all these books and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there is no material loss on your part. But if there is any gain, why don't you take it? *Professor Porsch: No, my question was perhaps a little . . . not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions, and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad*-gītā in this form, in such ways, perhaps? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are writing these books for distribution. Professor Porsch: Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Professor Porsch: Yes, good for what is . . . I was very . . . Prabhupāda: Here is my Dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books. *Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad*-gītā , Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: And what is the number of books sold last year? Satsvarūpa: Four million. Prabhupāda: Four million copies. Professor Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our . . . or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such, but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a first university in the tradition of the ancient times. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Porsch: A kind of a university of . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Professor Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences. *Prabhupāda: My idea is that all our centers should be self*-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go hundred miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New . . . West Virginia, Virginia. And similarly in other centers we are producing our food, grains—grains, vegetable, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animal. That we don't do. Professor Porsch: But will this center also be a kind of a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Professor Porsch: Yes. That is important. Prabhupāda: We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Yes. Professor Porsch: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (aside) You can play a little record. Last night . . . Haṁsadūta: This morning's recording? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Porsch: May I please ask, are there also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names? Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are exercising by dancing. Professor Porsch: Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupāda singing is played) Prabhupāda: Make little louder. (tape of Prabhupāda singing prayers to the six Gosvāmīs plays) What are these pictures? Haṁsadūta: These are pictures of our Society's activities in the temples. Professor Porsch: Very constructive and very . . . so much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-seven. Professor Porsch: And during the Bangladesh crisis you also . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone came, we feed. That much . . . there were many refugees, so we fed them. Professor Porsch: But that automatically answers the question of the gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see . . . Prabhupāda: No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also; there is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Māyāpur center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included. Professor Porsch: Included. German lady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food—everything. Professor Porsch: I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture can unite. This is the only place, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. (break) . . . distinction. Devotee: (showing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books) This is German. This is in Spanish, Chinese. Professor Porsch: (indistinct) . . . Chinese. Prabhupāda: Japanese also. And Hindi. Devotee: Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati. Professor Porsch: But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German) Prabhupāda: Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children. *Professor Porsch: And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "Easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by*-product, not a main aim . . . *Prabhupāda: No. We are teaching . . . of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil . . . we don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā , to inquire about the Absolute Truth. *Professor Porsch: So can you not say that this knowledge is an ātma*-vidyā , that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the ātman ? Prabhupāda: Ātmine ? Professor Porsch: Ātmā , self. *Prabhupāda: Oh, ātmā , yes. Tattva*-jijñāsā means ātma-jijñāsā . *Professor Porsch: That is why it is also correct to translate the term kṛṣṇa*-arjuna-saṁvara as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge. Prabhupāda: (aside) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical—everything is there. Professor Porsch: In the *Gītā* it also, a verse that, "Four kinds of persons seek Me." *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). Professor Porsch: "The man who seeks knowledge." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, catur*-vidhā . And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidhā . No. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Everything is there. *Professor Porsch: But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of . . . where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non*-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and we were . . . people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness . They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German). Professor Durckheim: But this time is over. Professor Porsch: Yes, yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: The modern times are not modern anymore. Professor Porsch: I agree with you, but just think how the world was only a few years ago. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational spirit, the really German tradition is the irrational. Professor Porsch: Yes, yes. I agree. Professor Durckheim: So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly. Prabhupāda: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on. Changing. Professor Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street . . . I don't mean . . . yes, of course, it was in the Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the . . . Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes. Professor Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German). (break) Professor Durckheim: . . . I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants, I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is . . . Prabhupāda: No, we invite everyone. Professor Durckheim: You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the Ober-(German) from Baden Wurttemberg, he is a Life Member. And all people . . . Devotee: We have doctors, lawyers . . . Professor Durckheim: He's simply a member? Haṁsadūta: Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and here as a member. But his lifestyle is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (end) (Conversation with Christians) Prabhupāda: Cannot find? Devotee: Yes. In German, just . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: (reads translation in German) (German discussion with guest) Prabhupāda: Sex life, married couple, that is all right; not otherwise. That is sinful. (translated into German throughout) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, just his objection was that in this statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā doesn't clearly say no reason you should not have sex life outside of married life, they simply state religious principles, but this is . . . Prabhupāda: Religious principle means married life; otherwise cats and dogs. what is the . . . if everyone has without any limitation sex life, then what is the difference between cats and dogs? Religion means they are not cats and dogs, because religion is in the human society, not in the cats' and dogs' society. Guest: I agree that in the Christian . . . (indistinct) . . . also. And in the life who will come, will not be sexual life in the future in the perfection state. No there will no be the sexual life *Prabhupāda: Yes, in the spiritual life there is no sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex intercourse. There is no sex life. Although there is man and woman, but there is no sex intercourse. By chanting the glories of God there in the spiritual world, they get so much great pleasure that is far beyond this pleasure of sex life. Something best, then you forget lower*-grade pleasure. So this sex pleasure is lower-grade pleasure. It is not pleasure, it is illusion. But in material world this is the greatest pleasure. Therefore everyone, they are coming back to the sex pleasure. Everyone. Even so-called religionists and svāmīs and . . . they are coming down to the sex pleasure. Because in this material world that is the only highest pleasure. So, so long one will be attracted by the sex pleasure, it is still in the material world. And when one will be on the platform to spit (makes spitting noise) on sex pleasure, then his spiritual life begins. That is stated by Yāmunācārya: Yāmunācārya, a great saintly person, he was formerly big king, so he said: "Since I have become Kṛṣṇa conscious and enjoying, since that time, as soon as I remember even sex life, I spit on it and my mouth becomes turned." (makes sound of repugnance) This is the test. Not that you become very advanced spiritualist and at the same time advance in sex life. That is not. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra . . . (SB 11.2.42). That is the test, that as soon as you are advanced in spiritual life, all these materialistic habits will be rejected automatically. This is the test. Four things are material demands—eating, satisfaction of the tongue or belly and satisfaction of the genital, āhāra ; and sleeping and to become good defender, defense measure. These are material necessity. And the one who is spiritually advanced, these things will be reduced, almost nil. What Christ says, Jesus Christ, about sex life? What does he say? Guest: Only in the married life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And in the future it will pass completely. (German) Devotee: (translating) So even if you are married sex life, can be material too. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also regulated. When the wife is menstrual period, so after five days you can have sex life, and as soon as she is pregnant, no more sex life. So sex life is meant for progeny, not for sense pleasure. Even the animals—dogs, cats—they have a period for sex life, and as soon as the female dog is pregnant, there will no more sex life. In certain months of the year they have sex life, not all the year. So even the dogs, they follow regulation, and we human being, we do not follow. The dogs have no restriction. The female dogs are naked, and they can capture anyone, anywhere, but they do not have unless there are certain period. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in spiritual life, restricted regulated sex life is essential. Guest: (German) Devotee: (translating question) And religious is automatically regulated sex life? Prabhupāda: If it is religious life. If in the name of religion if it is sinful life, that is another thing. All right. Hare Krsna . . . (end) (Conversation with Christians) Prabhupāda: Cannot find? Devotee: Yes. In German, just . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: (reads translation in German) (German discussion with guest) Prabhupāda: Sex life, married couple, that is all right; not otherwise. That is sinful. (translated into German throughout) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, just his objection was that in this statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā doesn't clearly say no reason you should not have sex life outside of married life, they simply state religious principles, but this is . . . Prabhupāda: Religious principle means married life; otherwise cats and dogs. what is the . . . if everyone has without any limitation sex life, then what is the difference between cats and dogs? Religion means they are not cats and dogs, because religion is in the human society, not in the cats' and dogs' society. Guest: I agree that in the Christian . . . (indistinct) . . . also. And in the life who will come, will not be sexual life in the future in the perfection state. No there will no be the sexual life *Prabhupāda: Yes, in the spiritual life there is no sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex intercourse. There is no sex life. Although there is man and woman, but there is no sex intercourse. By chanting the glories of God there in the spiritual world, they get so much great pleasure that is far beyond this pleasure of sex life. Something best, then you forget lower*-grade pleasure. So this sex pleasure is lower-grade pleasure. It is not pleasure, it is illusion. But in material world this is the greatest pleasure. Therefore everyone, they are coming back to the sex pleasure. Everyone. Even so-called religionists and svāmīs and . . . they are coming down to the sex pleasure. Because in this material world that is the only highest pleasure. So, so long one will be attracted by the sex pleasure, it is still in the material world. And when one will be on the platform to spit (makes spitting noise) on sex pleasure, then his spiritual life begins. That is stated by Yāmunācārya: Yāmunācārya, a great saintly person, he was formerly big king, so he said: "Since I have become Kṛṣṇa conscious and enjoying, since that time, as soon as I remember even sex life, I spit on it and my mouth becomes turned." (makes sound of repugnance) This is the test. Not that you become very advanced spiritualist and at the same time advance in sex life. That is not. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra . . . (SB 11.2.42). That is the test, that as soon as you are advanced in spiritual life, all these materialistic habits will be rejected automatically. This is the test. Four things are material demands—eating, satisfaction of the tongue or belly and satisfaction of the genital, āhāra ; and sleeping and to become good defender, defense measure. These are material necessity. And the one who is spiritually advanced, these things will be reduced, almost nil. What Christ says, Jesus Christ, about sex life? What does he say? Guest: Only in the married life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And in the future it will pass completely. (German) Devotee: (translating) So even if you are married sex life, can be material too. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also regulated. When the wife is menstrual period, so after five days you can have sex life, and as soon as she is pregnant, no more sex life. So sex life is meant for progeny, not for sense pleasure. Even the animals—dogs, cats—they have a period for sex life, and as soon as the female dog is pregnant, there will no more sex life. In certain months of the year they have sex life, not all the year. So even the dogs, they follow regulation, and we human being, we do not follow. The dogs have no restriction. The female dogs are naked, and they can capture anyone, anywhere, but they do not have unless there are certain period. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in spiritual life, restricted regulated sex life is essential. Guest: (German) Devotee: (translating question) And religious is automatically regulated sex life? Prabhupāda: If it is religious life. If in the name of religion if it is sinful life, that is another thing. All right. Hare Krsna . . . (end) (Conversation with Pater Emmanuel - a Benedictine monk) Prabhupāda: . . . see you. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Pater Emmanuel: I am so too. Prabhupāda: Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. It is translated in German too. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. This is just . . . I received a sample. Devotee: (translates into German) Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, yes. (looks at book) Who is author? Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa? Prabhupāda: He is my disciple. Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes. From India. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is in Cali . . . his description is there in the last page, his photograph. Pater Emmanuel: Oh, yes, yes. I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur. Prabhupāda: He is M.S. from Buffalo University, and he is Ph.D., chemistry, from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, yes. I see. Prabhupāda: You are coming from . . .? Pater Emmanuel: Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I come yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You can stay here. We have got place. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow. Devotee: He has a room upstairs. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery. Prabhupāda: You are Roman Catholic? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman rite, the Roman Catholic, and also the customs of life . . . it's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary. Prabhupāda: Like us. Pater Emmanuel: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo ? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ. Prabhupāda: Christo means Christ. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ, Kriza , Kristos , who is Christ by oil. Devotee: Anointed. Pater Emmanuel: Ya , Anointed. Christos , Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Prabhupāda: Saint? Pater Emmanuel: It's the same word. Devotee: The same word, Prabhupāda. Pater Emmanuel: Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, "anointed." Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa . Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting. Prabhupāda: Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa . And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor—the Sanskrit meaning, attractor. Pater Emmanuel: Attractor. *Prabhupāda: One who draws, draws everyone near. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa . And that all*-attractive drawer is God. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think so too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think that Christ (German). German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God . . . the name of God is . . . what is it? Pater Emmanuel: Christ. German devotee: Christ. Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ says to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why? Pater Emmanuel: We have name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Pater Emmanuel: We talk God, "Father" or "our Father." *Prabhupāda: No, "Father . . ." Just like your son may call you "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. Such*-and-such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, "God" is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the son of Christ, or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is . . . either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. (pause) Pater Emmanuel: Yes. When we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name . . . (German) German devotee: He says when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos, in the . . . Prabhupāda: This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. Pater Emmanuel: Because a name of God . . . we know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God, because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality—God Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed, is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the name is there. And we are recommending, according to Vedic scripture, that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," or "God," along with His energy. He has got two energies—spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy." *This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti*-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti , or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation—I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God—that is pure religion. Pater Emmanuel: What is that? Prabhupāda: That is pure religion. Pater Emmanuel: Pure religion. Yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure religion means bhakti . Pater Emmanuel: Mukti , yes. Prabhupāda: Bhakti . Pater Emmanuel: Bhakti , yes. And mukti too. Prabhupāda: So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti , there is no mukti . Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti , he has already attained mukti . Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *(aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa . German devotee: Māṁ ca ? Prabhupāda: Māṁ ca . I think he has.. Devotee: 14.26. German devotee: Translation in English? Prabhupāda: Let him . . . German translation will help you? Pater Emmanuel: Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but . . . (German) German devotee: 14.26. Prabhupāda: You read the purport. (devotee reads in German) Prabhupāda: He wants chair? Give him. Yes, go on. German devotee: (continues with German) Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Again? Devotee: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Yes, He is Para*-brahman. Para-brahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman . . . Pater Emmanuel: Internalized Brahman. Yes, I see *Prabhupāda: . . . and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman, because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva*-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti , the impersonal Brahman; paramātmeti , the localized Paramātmā; and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences: the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead. Pater Emmanuel: That's very good. Prabhupāda: And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he become associate of God. Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way. Prabhupāda: No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, but we are limited. *Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names—not one or two, but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara*-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise, He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotee) Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God's love? Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real love. Pater Emmanuel: Will that mean that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source? Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like. Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you. Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position. Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient? Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point. Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: Um . . . Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: That's it. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing. Pater Emmanuel: And you think it's a principal point, the top point. Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come. Pater Emmanuel: I understand. *Prabhupāda: This is called ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Adi 5.176). If you . . . I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken—the chicken or what is called, cock, that? Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens. Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen? Haṁsadūta: Hen. Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that, "This mouthpiece is expensive, because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole—this side and that side—then business will go on. Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotees) In the Christian tradition . . . (German) Prabhupāda: (aside) Water. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God? Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says . . . the Christianity understands . . . *Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, "killing" and "murder." Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word "murder" instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly, openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first*-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill," the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. Pater Emmanuel: (German) No, I understand. Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Plants? Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same? Pater Emmanuel: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also not the same. Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable, because our Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty*-upahṛtam. German devotee: (reads translation in German) *Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants, "Give Me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa*-viddham : sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine. But you cannot drink urine. So the injunction is, tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful . . . just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight, the commander-in-chief says: "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam ." So we are not sinful. Pater Emmanuel: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Heh? Pater Emmanuel: Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom, in the nature's way . . . just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam . (aside) Find out. (break) . . . killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting "Christ" or "Kṛṣṇa," the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant "Christ" or "Christo." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 2). He says that God has got many, multi names. Any one of them you chant, because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designatedless—if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name—then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu," "Here is Muslim," "Here is Christian," "Here is white," "Here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization, or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads, just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting . . . you are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue; we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish; no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no illicit sex; and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo," or "Christo, Christo." Is there any objection? Pater Emmanuel: No. Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up . . . Pater Emmanuel: On my part, but I . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty*-four hours. (priest laughs) Actually, this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen, hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousand churches, but they are not going on. So this experience . . . in Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian priest in Boston, he issued one leaflet that, "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was, "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?" Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?" Pater Emmanuel: What was your answer to this? Prabhupāda: Answer? What the answer? Umāpati: Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German. Prabhupāda: No, no. The answer I gave, you do not remember? Umāpati: "Because they are intelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes? German guest: (German) German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence, but it is a question of humility. Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement? Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth." Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road if they see me, they immediately fall down flat, never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said: Yasya . . . "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others. Pater Emmanuel: Exercise upon others. Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect. Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others. Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart. Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice. Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (priest leaves) (break) German guest: (German) *German devotee: (translating) "Where is it written in Bhagavad*-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā ?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside) Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. German guest: I will read at home. You can tell me the . . . (German) Devotee: What is the spelling? *Prabhupāda: dharma , d*-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (BG 7.11) German devotee: Yes, Seventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end) (Conversation with Pater Emmanuel - a Benedictine monk) Prabhupāda: . . . see you. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Pater Emmanuel: I am so too. Prabhupāda: Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. It is translated in German too. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. This is just . . . I received a sample. Devotee: (translates into German) Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, yes. (looks at book) Who is author? Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa? Prabhupāda: He is my disciple. Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes. From India. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is in Cali . . . his description is there in the last page, his photograph. Pater Emmanuel: Oh, yes, yes. I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur. Prabhupāda: He is M.S. from Buffalo University, and he is Ph.D., chemistry, from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, yes. I see. Prabhupāda: You are coming from . . .? Pater Emmanuel: Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I come yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You can stay here. We have got place. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow. Devotee: He has a room upstairs. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery. Prabhupāda: You are Roman Catholic? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman rite, the Roman Catholic, and also the customs of life . . . it's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary. Prabhupāda: Like us. Pater Emmanuel: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo ? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ. Prabhupāda: Christo means Christ. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ, Kriza , Kristos , who is Christ by oil. Devotee: Anointed. Pater Emmanuel: Ya , Anointed. Christos , Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Prabhupāda: Saint? Pater Emmanuel: It's the same word. Devotee: The same word, Prabhupāda. Pater Emmanuel: Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, "anointed." Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa . Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting. Prabhupāda: Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa . And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor—the Sanskrit meaning, attractor. Pater Emmanuel: Attractor. *Prabhupāda: One who draws, draws everyone near. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa . And that all*-attractive drawer is God. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think so too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think that Christ (German). German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God . . . the name of God is . . . what is it? Pater Emmanuel: Christ. German devotee: Christ. Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ says to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why? Pater Emmanuel: We have name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Pater Emmanuel: We talk God, "Father" or "our Father." *Prabhupāda: No, "Father . . ." Just like your son may call you "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. Such*-and-such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, "God" is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the son of Christ, or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is . . . either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. (pause) Pater Emmanuel: Yes. When we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name . . . (German) German devotee: He says when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos, in the . . . Prabhupāda: This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. Pater Emmanuel: Because a name of God . . . we know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God, because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality—God Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed, is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the name is there. And we are recommending, according to Vedic scripture, that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," or "God," along with His energy. He has got two energies—spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy." *This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti*-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti , or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation—I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God—that is pure religion. Pater Emmanuel: What is that? Prabhupāda: That is pure religion. Pater Emmanuel: Pure religion. Yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure religion means bhakti . Pater Emmanuel: Mukti , yes. Prabhupāda: Bhakti . Pater Emmanuel: Bhakti , yes. And mukti too. Prabhupāda: So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti , there is no mukti . Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti , he has already attained mukti . Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *(aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa . German devotee: Māṁ ca ? Prabhupāda: Māṁ ca . I think he has.. Devotee: 14.26. German devotee: Translation in English? Prabhupāda: Let him . . . German translation will help you? Pater Emmanuel: Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but . . . (German) German devotee: 14.26. Prabhupāda: You read the purport. (devotee reads in German) Prabhupāda: He wants chair? Give him. Yes, go on. German devotee: (continues with German) Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Again? Devotee: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Yes, He is Para*-brahman. Para-brahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman . . . Pater Emmanuel: Internalized Brahman. Yes, I see *Prabhupāda: . . . and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman, because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva*-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti , the impersonal Brahman; paramātmeti , the localized Paramātmā; and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences: the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead. Pater Emmanuel: That's very good. Prabhupāda: And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he become associate of God. Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way. Prabhupāda: No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, but we are limited. *Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names—not one or two, but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara*-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise, He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotee) Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God's love? Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real love. Pater Emmanuel: Will that mean that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source? Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like. Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you. Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position. Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient? Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point. Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: Um . . . Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: That's it. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing. Pater Emmanuel: And you think it's a principal point, the top point. Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come. Pater Emmanuel: I understand. *Prabhupāda: This is called ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Adi 5.176). If you . . . I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken—the chicken or what is called, cock, that? Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens. Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen? Haṁsadūta: Hen. Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that, "This mouthpiece is expensive, because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole—this side and that side—then business will go on. Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotees) In the Christian tradition . . . (German) Prabhupāda: (aside) Water. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God? Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says . . . the Christianity understands . . . *Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, "killing" and "murder." Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word "murder" instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly, openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first*-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill," the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. Pater Emmanuel: (German) No, I understand. Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Plants? Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same? Pater Emmanuel: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also not the same. Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable, because our Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty*-upahṛtam. German devotee: (reads translation in German) *Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants, "Give Me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa*-viddham : sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine. But you cannot drink urine. So the injunction is, tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful . . . just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight, the commander-in-chief says: "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam ." So we are not sinful. Pater Emmanuel: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Heh? Pater Emmanuel: Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom, in the nature's way . . . just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam . (aside) Find out. (break) . . . killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting "Christ" or "Kṛṣṇa," the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant "Christ" or "Christo." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 2). He says that God has got many, multi names. Any one of them you chant, because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designatedless—if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name—then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu," "Here is Muslim," "Here is Christian," "Here is white," "Here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization, or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads, just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting . . . you are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue; we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish; no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no illicit sex; and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo," or "Christo, Christo." Is there any objection? Pater Emmanuel: No. Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up . . . Pater Emmanuel: On my part, but I . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty*-four hours. (priest laughs) Actually, this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen, hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousand churches, but they are not going on. So this experience . . . in Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian priest in Boston, he issued one leaflet that, "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was, "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?" Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?" Pater Emmanuel: What was your answer to this? Prabhupāda: Answer? What the answer? Umāpati: Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German. Prabhupāda: No, no. The answer I gave, you do not remember? Umāpati: "Because they are intelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes? German guest: (German) German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence, but it is a question of humility. Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement? Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth." Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road if they see me, they immediately fall down flat, never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said: Yasya . . . "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others. Pater Emmanuel: Exercise upon others. Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect. Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others. Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart. Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice. Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (priest leaves) (break) German guest: (German) *German devotee: (translating) "Where is it written in Bhagavad*-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā ?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside) Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. German guest: I will read at home. You can tell me the . . . (German) Devotee: What is the spelling? *Prabhupāda: dharma , d*-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (BG 7.11) German devotee: Yes, Seventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end) (Video - 01:55): Reporter: (break) . . . special servant of God. Prabhupāda: I'm always servant of God, it is for you to recognize, that's all. I'm always servant of God, but it is for you to recognize. Reporter: Have you any idea how much money the sect makes every year? Prabhupāda: We can spend all the money of the world. Devotees: (laughter) Haribol! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, you do not give us the money. Devotees: (laughter) Haribol! Reporter: What . . . how do you spend, your Grace?. Prabhupāda: We are spending at least, at the present moment, eight hundred thousand dollars per month. Reporter: On what, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: On this propaganda, all over the world. And we are selling our books, not less than forty thousand dollars per month. Reporter: Do you like to work? Prabhupāda: Yes. What's that? Madhudviṣa: She wants to know if we like to work. *Prabhupāda: We are working, more than you—twenty*-four hours in the old age I am traveling all over the world. Devotee: Haribol! Reporter: But don’t you get a lot of your money from begging? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all you see. Working—you cannot work more than us, because I am an old man, seventy*-nine years old, and I am traveling always, all over the world, twice, thrice in a year. You cannot work so much, at least. Devotees: Haribol! Prabhupāda. Madhudviṣa: Just one more question please. Yes. Reporter (4): Your Grace, your religion is a very ascetic one. Will you be living ascetically in Melbourne? We’re told you’ll be taken away in a Rolls Royce. Prabhupāda: Our religion does not say asceticism. Our religion teaches to love God. You can love God in this dress. There is no harm. *Reporter (4): But it is a self*-denying religion, isn’t it?” *Prabhupāda: It is not self*-denying. We are using everything, why self-denying? We simply use whatever absolutely necessary, that’s all. Reporter: But how do you justify trappings like a Rolls Royce and a very expensive house to live in? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want Rolls Royce, we can walk. But if you offer Rolls Royce, I have no objection. Reporter: Wouldn’t it be better that you were traveling in a lot smaller car, less pretentious? Prabhupāda: Why, why? If you give me a Rolls Royce to travel, why shall I refuse it? It is my favor upon you, I accept this. Reporter: Your Grace, would you tell us briefly how you founded the Hare Krishna in America. Prabhupāda: Well, at least whole world is now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Wherever you go they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Video - 01:55): Reporter: (break) . . . special servant of God. Prabhupāda: I'm always servant of God, it is for you to recognize, that's all. I'm always servant of God, but it is for you to recognize. Reporter: Have you any idea how much money the sect makes every year? Prabhupāda: We can spend all the money of the world. Devotees: (laughter) Haribol! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, you do not give us the money. Devotees: (laughter) Haribol! Reporter: What . . . how do you spend, your Grace?. Prabhupāda: We are spending at least, at the present moment, eight hundred thousand dollars per month. Reporter: On what, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: On this propaganda, all over the world. And we are selling our books, not less than forty thousand dollars per month. Reporter: Do you like to work? Prabhupāda: Yes. What's that? Madhudviṣa: She wants to know if we like to work. *Prabhupāda: We are working, more than you—twenty*-four hours in the old age I am traveling all over the world. Devotee: Haribol! Reporter: But don’t you get a lot of your money from begging? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all you see. Working—you cannot work more than us, because I am an old man, seventy*-nine years old, and I am traveling always, all over the world, twice, thrice in a year. You cannot work so much, at least. Devotees: Haribol! Prabhupāda. Madhudviṣa: Just one more question please. Yes. Reporter (4): Your Grace, your religion is a very ascetic one. Will you be living ascetically in Melbourne? We’re told you’ll be taken away in a Rolls Royce. Prabhupāda: Our religion does not say asceticism. Our religion teaches to love God. You can love God in this dress. There is no harm. *Reporter (4): But it is a self*-denying religion, isn’t it?” *Prabhupāda: It is not self*-denying. We are using everything, why self-denying? We simply use whatever absolutely necessary, that’s all. Reporter: But how do you justify trappings like a Rolls Royce and a very expensive house to live in? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want Rolls Royce, we can walk. But if you offer Rolls Royce, I have no objection. Reporter: Wouldn’t it be better that you were traveling in a lot smaller car, less pretentious? Prabhupāda: Why, why? If you give me a Rolls Royce to travel, why shall I refuse it? It is my favor upon you, I accept this. Reporter: Your Grace, would you tell us briefly how you founded the Hare Krishna in America. Prabhupāda: Well, at least whole world is now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Wherever you go they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots' Church) Reverend Powell: Your people have a serenity that many Western people don't have. What . . . what is the secret of serenity? And is it . . . I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such. Prabhupāda: Surrender is not material. Satsvarūpa: Serenity . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness? Prabhupāda: Communist? Satsvarūpa: The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from? Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. Reverend Powell: From what? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one . . . Reverend Powell: Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā . These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God," no. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they . . . one of the qualification is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty*-five qualifications of a devotee. *Reverend Powell: Twenty*-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: What are some of the others? Prabhupāda: (aside) Have you got the list? *Satsvarūpa: Friendly . . . uh, it's in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Right here, Teachings of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: And you, obviously, would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What . . .? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? Prabhupāda: No, it is practical. What is it? Satsvarūpa: (reading) It says: "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not . . ." Prabhupāda: First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then? Satsvarūpa: "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert. And he is silent." *Reverend Powell: Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia. I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Collins Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty*-one medical men on . . . and women, mainly men, on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing? Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees . . . we are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see? Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors. But now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works at the physical level, and the psychiatrist works at the emotional, mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus . . . Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. Reverend Powell: I'm sorry, I don't quite follow that. Satsvarūpa: He said the real disease is the material condition, in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reverend Powell: Umm . . . yes, I see. On the point of . . . in reading this very interesting magazine, and this . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . Reverend Powell: There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and with beans in particular, there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were prayed for . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. (aside) Find out, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental and fruitive activities." Reverend Powell: What does devotional service mean in that context? Prabhupāda: Purport? Satsvarūpa: Purport: "Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman, spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities." Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And . . . Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service. Reverend Powell: Always. Prabhupāda: Always. Then they'll be free from birth, death, old age and disease. Yes. Reverend Powell: And . . . were the papers correct in reporting you as . . . well, they reported opposite things that . . . but you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is . . . death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form? Is that it? Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as the . . . everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Reverend Powell: Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what was said here in the . . . referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage. Prabhupāda: Only the sex allowed only for begetting nice children. Reverend Powell: Yes. You don't feel that . . . Prabhupāda: And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex. Reverend Powell: And that is out. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Reverend Powell: What is your attitude to Jesus? Prabhupāda: I have already explained in the meeting. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's . . . Reverend Powell: Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He . . . Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo, or Kristo, or Kṛṣṇa. Reverend Powell: Yes? Hmm. Another thing: We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement, and we really congratulate you, sir, (Prabhupāda chuckles) on the very fine work that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved, because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain . . . I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on, that there are many thousands . . . Prabhupāda: In Africa, in China, in Japan. Everywhere. Reverend Powell: And now, how do you explain this? Why are people . . .? Why are . . .? Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation. Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they . . . you have all ages? Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive. Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, I see. And I was interested . . . I take it that you feel—forgive me if I'm not using the right expression—but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system. Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brahmin , the śūdras and so on, per se. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to . . . (aside) Find out the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay? Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago. I um . . . Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta? Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they pass through Calcutta or Bombay, like that. Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We come by air. Was there some reference? Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Translation: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non*-doer, being unchangeable." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. Satsvarūpa: "The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brāhmaṇas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kṣatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaiśyas , are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the śūdras , or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature." *"In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Kṛṣṇa does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above*-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, is above even the brāhmaṇas , because a brāhmaṇa by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but only a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brāhmaṇa and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, becomes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaiṣṇava." "Kṛṣṇa consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa, namely Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, etc. However, as Kṛṣṇa is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species." Reverend Powell: Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some five and some ten. And . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (sounds of wrapping paper) You can close the door. Devotee: Close the door. Prabhupāda: So all our disciples, they are young men. Reverend Powell: Yes, I noticed. Prabhupāda: Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time. Reverend Powell: (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, some were given a few, and some were . . . Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then . . . Reverend Powell: What I'd like to follow through . . . I'd like to hear this, but . . . Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brahmin category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here. Reverend Powell: And this . . . Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brahmin . Symptoms. Satsvarūpa: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *Prabhupāda: This is first*-quality man. Reverend Powell: Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. When . . . when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first*-class man. Reverend Powell: Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of Communism, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth—everything belongs to God—that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area . . . just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. "National" means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the Communist or capitalist, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then, they said: "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage—the same wage is paid to all, however long they work, because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from our point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier . . . *Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is not limited within Christian or Communist or capitalist. Reverend Powell: No. *Prabhupāda: No. The principle . . . wherever there are these talented person, he is to be considered as first*-class man. He does not say that, "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christian . . ." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa , these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest, because I am making them brahmin . My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brahmin . So the Indian, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion because he's accepting brahmin from outside." So actually they're also not aware . . . creation of God . . . here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia—it is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brahmin . That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." This is applicable to every man, not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, even the Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community? Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area. Reverend Powell: Right. Prabhupāda: That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Christ says that, "Thou should be . . . one should be meek and humble to go to back to home, back to . . ." Eh? It is not? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this is for everyone. Reverend Powell: Yes. Blessed are the meek. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone. Reverend Powell: Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired; you've got a big day tomorrow. I mustn't keep you, if I may. Prabhupāda: Just here, please wait. Little, take little. (aside) Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You had been today there today in meeting? Guest: Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice . . . Prabhupāda: You were all present? Guest: Yes. Reverend Powell: You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you? Devotee: Yes. Reverend Powell: You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it, tomorrow? I'll see something of it. Prabhupāda: These flowers are very nice. They are called . . .? Devotee: Daffodil? Prabhupāda: Daffodils. Oh. Reverend Powell: No, jonquils, aren't they? Devotee: Jonquils. Prabhupāda: Very . . . just see how God's artistic brain. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere, God, nothing but God. Reverend Powell: Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything you see God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God. Satsvarūpa: Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: You can, you can pick up. Reverend Powell: Made out of what? Satsvarūpa: Mostly out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: Milk preparation. Reverend Powell: Thank you. And, um . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can eat. Reverend Powell: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Thank you. (eats) Satsvarūpa: Very juicy. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Very juicy. Hmm. (laughs) Prabhupāda: All of them, give each one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. (to guests) Do you like? Guest: Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Reverend Powell: Something quite different. Hmm. Devotee: Here, perhaps you can use this. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You . . . you . . . you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all? Prabhupāda: No. Reverend Powell: Why not eggs? Because . . . Prabhupāda: We are not even vegetarian. Reverend Powell: You're not. *Prabhupāda: No. We are negative of vegetarian and non*-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda . Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian, because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have appointment. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) (Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots' Church) Reverend Powell: Your people have a serenity that many Western people don't have. What . . . what is the secret of serenity? And is it . . . I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such. Prabhupāda: Surrender is not material. Satsvarūpa: Serenity . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness? Prabhupāda: Communist? Satsvarūpa: The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from? Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. Reverend Powell: From what? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one . . . Reverend Powell: Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā . These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God," no. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they . . . one of the qualification is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty*-five qualifications of a devotee. *Reverend Powell: Twenty*-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: What are some of the others? Prabhupāda: (aside) Have you got the list? *Satsvarūpa: Friendly . . . uh, it's in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Right here, Teachings of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: And you, obviously, would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What . . .? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? Prabhupāda: No, it is practical. What is it? Satsvarūpa: (reading) It says: "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not . . ." Prabhupāda: First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then? Satsvarūpa: "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert. And he is silent." *Reverend Powell: Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia. I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Collins Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty*-one medical men on . . . and women, mainly men, on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing? Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees . . . we are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see? Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors. But now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works at the physical level, and the psychiatrist works at the emotional, mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus . . . Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. Reverend Powell: I'm sorry, I don't quite follow that. Satsvarūpa: He said the real disease is the material condition, in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reverend Powell: Umm . . . yes, I see. On the point of . . . in reading this very interesting magazine, and this . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . Reverend Powell: There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and with beans in particular, there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were prayed for . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. (aside) Find out, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental and fruitive activities." Reverend Powell: What does devotional service mean in that context? Prabhupāda: Purport? Satsvarūpa: Purport: "Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman, spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities." Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And . . . Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service. Reverend Powell: Always. Prabhupāda: Always. Then they'll be free from birth, death, old age and disease. Yes. Reverend Powell: And . . . were the papers correct in reporting you as . . . well, they reported opposite things that . . . but you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is . . . death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form? Is that it? Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as the . . . everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Reverend Powell: Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what was said here in the . . . referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage. Prabhupāda: Only the sex allowed only for begetting nice children. Reverend Powell: Yes. You don't feel that . . . Prabhupāda: And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex. Reverend Powell: And that is out. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Reverend Powell: What is your attitude to Jesus? Prabhupāda: I have already explained in the meeting. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's . . . Reverend Powell: Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He . . . Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo, or Kristo, or Kṛṣṇa. Reverend Powell: Yes? Hmm. Another thing: We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement, and we really congratulate you, sir, (Prabhupāda chuckles) on the very fine work that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved, because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain . . . I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on, that there are many thousands . . . Prabhupāda: In Africa, in China, in Japan. Everywhere. Reverend Powell: And now, how do you explain this? Why are people . . .? Why are . . .? Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation. Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they . . . you have all ages? Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive. Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, I see. And I was interested . . . I take it that you feel—forgive me if I'm not using the right expression—but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system. Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brahmin , the śūdras and so on, per se. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to . . . (aside) Find out the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay? Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago. I um . . . Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta? Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they pass through Calcutta or Bombay, like that. Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We come by air. Was there some reference? Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Translation: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non*-doer, being unchangeable." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. Satsvarūpa: "The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brāhmaṇas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kṣatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaiśyas , are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the śūdras , or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature." *"In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Kṛṣṇa does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above*-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, is above even the brāhmaṇas , because a brāhmaṇa by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but only a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brāhmaṇa and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, becomes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaiṣṇava." "Kṛṣṇa consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa, namely Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, etc. However, as Kṛṣṇa is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species." Reverend Powell: Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some five and some ten. And . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (sounds of wrapping paper) You can close the door. Devotee: Close the door. Prabhupāda: So all our disciples, they are young men. Reverend Powell: Yes, I noticed. Prabhupāda: Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time. Reverend Powell: (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, some were given a few, and some were . . . Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then . . . Reverend Powell: What I'd like to follow through . . . I'd like to hear this, but . . . Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brahmin category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here. Reverend Powell: And this . . . Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brahmin . Symptoms. Satsvarūpa: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *Prabhupāda: This is first*-quality man. Reverend Powell: Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. When . . . when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first*-class man. Reverend Powell: Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of Communism, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth—everything belongs to God—that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area . . . just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. "National" means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the Communist or capitalist, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then, they said: "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage—the same wage is paid to all, however long they work, because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from our point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier . . . *Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is not limited within Christian or Communist or capitalist. Reverend Powell: No. *Prabhupāda: No. The principle . . . wherever there are these talented person, he is to be considered as first*-class man. He does not say that, "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christian . . ." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa , these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest, because I am making them brahmin . My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brahmin . So the Indian, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion because he's accepting brahmin from outside." So actually they're also not aware . . . creation of God . . . here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia—it is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brahmin . That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." This is applicable to every man, not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, even the Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community? Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area. Reverend Powell: Right. Prabhupāda: That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Christ says that, "Thou should be . . . one should be meek and humble to go to back to home, back to . . ." Eh? It is not? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this is for everyone. Reverend Powell: Yes. Blessed are the meek. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone. Reverend Powell: Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired; you've got a big day tomorrow. I mustn't keep you, if I may. Prabhupāda: Just here, please wait. Little, take little. (aside) Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You had been today there today in meeting? Guest: Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice . . . Prabhupāda: You were all present? Guest: Yes. Reverend Powell: You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you? Devotee: Yes. Reverend Powell: You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it, tomorrow? I'll see something of it. Prabhupāda: These flowers are very nice. They are called . . .? Devotee: Daffodil? Prabhupāda: Daffodils. Oh. Reverend Powell: No, jonquils, aren't they? Devotee: Jonquils. Prabhupāda: Very . . . just see how God's artistic brain. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere, God, nothing but God. Reverend Powell: Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything you see God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God. Satsvarūpa: Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: You can, you can pick up. Reverend Powell: Made out of what? Satsvarūpa: Mostly out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: Milk preparation. Reverend Powell: Thank you. And, um . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can eat. Reverend Powell: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Thank you. (eats) Satsvarūpa: Very juicy. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Very juicy. Hmm. (laughs) Prabhupāda: All of them, give each one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. (to guests) Do you like? Guest: Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Reverend Powell: Something quite different. Hmm. Devotee: Here, perhaps you can use this. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You . . . you . . . you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all? Prabhupāda: No. Reverend Powell: Why not eggs? Because . . . Prabhupāda: We are not even vegetarian. Reverend Powell: You're not. *Prabhupāda: No. We are negative of vegetarian and non*-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda . Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian, because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have appointment. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . dollar, three quarter. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in your country . . . Satsvarūpa: That would cost around fifteen dollars or something. Prabhupāda: Just see. Still, India, I am surprised. Devotee: It's good quality as well. *Prabhupāda: Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, utmost three rupees. Now the things have increased price. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the USA the binding cost is very, very . . . just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad*-gītā , hardbound, they charge ten dollar, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cent, and in America they charge six dollars. Hmm. So all the fathers clapped for long. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: They appreciated. Devotee: Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Devotee: He appreciated that very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena . Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena. For . . . in one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for person. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect to even an ant. Therefore that St. Francis . . . Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God—anyway, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood . . . actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind—that the grain of rice is not man*-made; it is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy, so God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything . . . therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya ( BG 7.8). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda . . . ānandamaya. That God is ānanda . So there is the sample of ānanda . *So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ? What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only . . . every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ . . . we pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and every thing. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇava is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa : This is the statement of Lord Śiva. "Worship of God, Viṣṇu, is the highest, topmost method of worship. And greater than the topmost worship is to worship Viṣṇu's paraphernalia. Viṣṇu's devotee, Viṣṇu's temple, Viṣṇu's dear . . ." Just like we worship tulasī . Why? Because it is very dear to Viṣṇu. Tadīyānām . Viṣṇu likes, Kṛṣṇa likes. When, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), the tulasī flower, leaf is offered to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes very pleased. Therefore we love tulasī , because He likes. In common word they say: "If you love me, love my dog." I have seen people do that. One man is going with his dog. His friends meet, and if the friends pats the dog, the man becomes pleased. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately: "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . What is the meaning? Satsvarūpa: "By the mercy of the spiritual master one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased, "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified, but because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone. Satsvarūpa: But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee, even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if . . . *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette—comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect, "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that, "He's my enemy." That . . . the etiquette according to Vedic civilization, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto*-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum . . . that was . . . just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with . . ." (break) Unless one of the kings die . . . (break) (break) . . . a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have . . . where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha . (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha . Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas , they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa says: "It is I am"—they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say: "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha . Therefore it is said . . . the mūḍha cannot explain all . . . and at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future, the future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history . . .? In the history the future is past. This is common sense. *So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum, that future will never come. And they still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come, and still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha . This is the explanation of mūḍha . It is just like somebody offered you a post*-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say: "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect. Devotee: In Australia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That Attorney, in the . . . Attorney*-General of the Federal Government. You saw that? Satsvarūpa: I didn't see the paper. Prabhupāda: They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much. Devotee: I think so, yes. Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly . . . *Satsvarūpa: At seven*-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high ranking in the Church. Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten after six. Quarter after six. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . dollar, three quarter. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in your country . . . Satsvarūpa: That would cost around fifteen dollars or something. Prabhupāda: Just see. Still, India, I am surprised. Devotee: It's good quality as well. *Prabhupāda: Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, utmost three rupees. Now the things have increased price. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the USA the binding cost is very, very . . . just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad*-gītā , hardbound, they charge ten dollar, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cent, and in America they charge six dollars. Hmm. So all the fathers clapped for long. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: They appreciated. Devotee: Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Devotee: He appreciated that very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena . Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena. For . . . in one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for person. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect to even an ant. Therefore that St. Francis . . . Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God—anyway, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood . . . actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind—that the grain of rice is not man*-made; it is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy, so God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything . . . therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya ( BG 7.8). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda . . . ānandamaya. That God is ānanda . So there is the sample of ānanda . *So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ? What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only . . . every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ . . . we pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and every thing. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇava is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa : This is the statement of Lord Śiva. "Worship of God, Viṣṇu, is the highest, topmost method of worship. And greater than the topmost worship is to worship Viṣṇu's paraphernalia. Viṣṇu's devotee, Viṣṇu's temple, Viṣṇu's dear . . ." Just like we worship tulasī . Why? Because it is very dear to Viṣṇu. Tadīyānām . Viṣṇu likes, Kṛṣṇa likes. When, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), the tulasī flower, leaf is offered to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes very pleased. Therefore we love tulasī , because He likes. In common word they say: "If you love me, love my dog." I have seen people do that. One man is going with his dog. His friends meet, and if the friends pats the dog, the man becomes pleased. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately: "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . What is the meaning? Satsvarūpa: "By the mercy of the spiritual master one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased, "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified, but because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone. Satsvarūpa: But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee, even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if . . . *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette—comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect, "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that, "He's my enemy." That . . . the etiquette according to Vedic civilization, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto*-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum . . . that was . . . just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with . . ." (break) Unless one of the kings die . . . (break) (break) . . . a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have . . . where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha . (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha . Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas , they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa says: "It is I am"—they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say: "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha . Therefore it is said . . . the mūḍha cannot explain all . . . and at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future, the future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history . . .? In the history the future is past. This is common sense. *So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum, that future will never come. And they still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come, and still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha . This is the explanation of mūḍha . It is just like somebody offered you a post*-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say: "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect. Devotee: In Australia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That Attorney, in the . . . Attorney*-General of the Federal Government. You saw that? Satsvarūpa: I didn't see the paper. Prabhupāda: They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much. Devotee: I think so, yes. Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly . . . *Satsvarūpa: At seven*-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high ranking in the Church. Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten after six. Quarter after six. (end) (Video - 00:40): Guest: I don't think we have to worry about your disciples being in the criminal courts now do we? We don't have to worry about that. You have fine followers here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: This community, fine community. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Good people. (break) Prabhupāda: A magistrate or a lawyer is already graduate. (break) If he is a lawyer it is to be understood that he has passed his graduate examination. Similarly, if one is vaiṣṇava it is to be understood that he has already become a brahmin . Is it clear? Why we offer you the sacred thread? That means there is brahminical standard. Unless one is brahmin he cannot become vaiṣṇava . Just like unless one is graduate, he cannot become lawyer. So as a lawyer means he is already a graduate of the university, similarly a vaiṣṇava means he is already a brahmin . Devotee: So therefore the vaiṣṇavas , they're all, they should have no contamination of passion and ignorance, therefore . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: They shall be, they shall be on the platform of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, vaiṣṇava means, bhakti means, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa ( SB 11.2.42), bhakti means realization of God consciousness. And the symptom of God consciousness is that he is averse to all material activities. He has no interest. Devotee: So then the brāhmaṇa has no interest in being, excuse me, the vaiṣṇava has no interest in being a brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra , but he takes some specific occupation . . . *Prabhupāda: That is, he is actually on the topmost position. He has no interest. But so long he is not so perfect, he has interest. Therefore that interest should be corroborated, or, what is called . . . adjusted according to the brahminical, kṣatriya . . . (break) . . . because, in that time, the people are so rotten, that they could not understand what is God. Therefore he took up that "First of all let them become sinless. Then one day will come, he will understand what is God. Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." Now, the people at that time are killers. Otherwise why does he say: "Thou shall not kill." Why this first commandment? Because full of killers. Not very good society. If in a society constantly there is killing, murder, is that very good society? So therefore he first of all asked not to kill, first of all let them become sinless, then they will understand what is God. Here is, Bhagavad*-gita confirms: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has become completely sinless. So God consciousness is meant for the person who is sinless. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is cheating. A God-conscious person means he has no sin. He cannot be within the jurisdiction of sinful activities. That is God consciousness. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is not possible. So everyone can understand whether I am actually God conscious or not by judging his own activities. There is no need of asking for external certificate. Whether I am fixed up on these principles: no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intox . . . if one is sincere he can judge himself whether I am actually on the platform or not. Just like you are hungry, if you have eaten something then you can feel strength, satisfaction. There is no need of external certificate. Similarly, God consciousness means whether you are freed from all sinful activities. Then you'll become. A God conscious person will not be inclined to any sinful activity. (break) (end) (Video - 00:40): Guest: I don't think we have to worry about your disciples being in the criminal courts now do we? We don't have to worry about that. You have fine followers here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: This community, fine community. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Good people. (break) Prabhupāda: A magistrate or a lawyer is already graduate. (break) If he is a lawyer it is to be understood that he has passed his graduate examination. Similarly, if one is vaiṣṇava it is to be understood that he has already become a brahmin . Is it clear? Why we offer you the sacred thread? That means there is brahminical standard. Unless one is brahmin he cannot become vaiṣṇava . Just like unless one is graduate, he cannot become lawyer. So as a lawyer means he is already a graduate of the university, similarly a vaiṣṇava means he is already a brahmin . Devotee: So therefore the vaiṣṇavas , they're all, they should have no contamination of passion and ignorance, therefore . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: They shall be, they shall be on the platform of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, vaiṣṇava means, bhakti means, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa ( SB 11.2.42), bhakti means realization of God consciousness. And the symptom of God consciousness is that he is averse to all material activities. He has no interest. Devotee: So then the brāhmaṇa has no interest in being, excuse me, the vaiṣṇava has no interest in being a brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra , but he takes some specific occupation . . . *Prabhupāda: That is, he is actually on the topmost position. He has no interest. But so long he is not so perfect, he has interest. Therefore that interest should be corroborated, or, what is called . . . adjusted according to the brahminical, kṣatriya . . . (break) . . . because, in that time, the people are so rotten, that they could not understand what is God. Therefore he took up that "First of all let them become sinless. Then one day will come, he will understand what is God. Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." Now, the people at that time are killers. Otherwise why does he say: "Thou shall not kill." Why this first commandment? Because full of killers. Not very good society. If in a society constantly there is killing, murder, is that very good society? So therefore he first of all asked not to kill, first of all let them become sinless, then they will understand what is God. Here is, Bhagavad*-gita confirms: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has become completely sinless. So God consciousness is meant for the person who is sinless. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is cheating. A God-conscious person means he has no sin. He cannot be within the jurisdiction of sinful activities. That is God consciousness. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is not possible. So everyone can understand whether I am actually God conscious or not by judging his own activities. There is no need of asking for external certificate. Whether I am fixed up on these principles: no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intox . . . if one is sincere he can judge himself whether I am actually on the platform or not. Just like you are hungry, if you have eaten something then you can feel strength, satisfaction. There is no need of external certificate. Similarly, God consciousness means whether you are freed from all sinful activities. Then you'll become. A God conscious person will not be inclined to any sinful activity. (break) (end) Prabhupāda: That is sense. Otherwise nonsense (laughs), that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said? Satsvarūpa: "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: This is sense. (pause) Bhūrijana: Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled. Prabhupāda: Then unfortunate. Bhūrijana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Continue. (laughter) Who can check? Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense, though, exactly how far your instructions are, because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly . . . Prabhupāda: You are old student. Bhūrijana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like . . . Bhūrijana: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say . . . (pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then is no advance. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhim sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatih (BG 16.23). This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man. No. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect. (aside) Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa , this word is used. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not today. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now last night, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. *Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa): "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is kṛṣṇa-kathā , Kṛṣṇa's. sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā : "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good; *it is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, it is . . . there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇavism. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas , Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says: "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He cannot chant. That is a show*-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no. Sanātana Gosvāmī, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than . . . in other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many other, they could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ : "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is . . . there are so many . . . such a big instruction book. It is not that whimsical. But still, we recommend that, "Go on chanting." This will help you, anyone. That is also good. It is exactly like that if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time; only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes, you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied, "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood would dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied—"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"—that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. It require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. (break) You must get the flame, otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "phat, phat, phat" As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it, let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man . . . he was a yogī . So he approached—it is not story; *it is fact—approached one big man that . . . as people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogī , "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can, in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga ." So, "How long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night, or as long as you . . ." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, for one night, then I shall give you such*-and-such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said: "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not . . . either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no, sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa ? During Kārttika month they . . . this is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said: "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) (chuckles) That lamp was three miles away, and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that, "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." (aside) Hmm. What is that? Some presentation? Amogha: Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that, "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not . . .?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw, "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense?" "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply, so that man was paid. (laughter) So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire, and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ . . . (BG 16.23). (aside) Hmm. So what are these things? Amogha: I noticed this morning while . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) (laughing) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head, and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice. Amogha: This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney—a scarf for you to wear in the cold. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. Amogha: And I also brought one from me. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Amogha: And some mangoes . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is good. Amogha: . . . from Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are really difficult to get. Prabhupāda: Mangoes, very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not? Amogha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya*-ca . . . two fruits. One fruit is the Neem tree fruit. You have seen Neem tree? In not your country. Neem tree you have seen in India, and their fruits . . . Bhūrijana: A little bitter. Prabhupāda: Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow, they eat that Neem tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this Neem tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden—there is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere, and the crows . . . you have seen it? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They enjoy that. Tad*-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . (aside) Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Satsvarūpa: Part One? *Prabhupāda: Na tad*-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ (SB 1.5.10). Jagattāriṇī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . no understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā , you will find the first beginning of teaching— dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . Find out. Satsvarūpa: *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education, because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. (to Bhūrijana) She has also gone, your wife? Bhūrijana: No, she will come back. Prabhupāda: That is, we . . . our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram (BG 2.13). Dehina , not the deha; dehi . (break) We are not working on deha. Deha means body, and dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the defect. Therefore it takes very, very long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body . . ." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education. They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education? Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions, or nowadays meditation, like that. *Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so*-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close it. It is closed? Satsvarūpa: Close the blind? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed. Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break) Satsvarūpa: . . . have to strain the juice from this mango? Prabhupāda: And did you do it? Satsvarūpa: No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice—first*-quality rice, second-quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third-quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bāsmatī . I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, " Babu . . ." babu means master—"this rice is not suitable for us." That fine bāsmatī rice, he did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have you seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes, "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. (break) . . . the big animals, the living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Cāru: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for. *Prabhupāda: No. Classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam ," life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). At that stage, samatā , equality, when one is brahma-bhūta , spiritualized. Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? Madhudviṣa: Dipaka? Prabhupāda: No, he has gone. Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him. Prabhupāda: All right. No, no. Madhudviṣa: I can send for him. It's all right. Prabhupāda: No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten to eight. (end) Prabhupāda: That is sense. Otherwise nonsense (laughs), that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said? Satsvarūpa: "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: This is sense. (pause) Bhūrijana: Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled. Prabhupāda: Then unfortunate. Bhūrijana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Continue. (laughter) Who can check? Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense, though, exactly how far your instructions are, because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly . . . Prabhupāda: You are old student. Bhūrijana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like . . . Bhūrijana: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say . . . (pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then is no advance. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhim sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatih (BG 16.23). This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man. No. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect. (aside) Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa , this word is used. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not today. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now last night, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. *Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa): "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is kṛṣṇa-kathā , Kṛṣṇa's. sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā : "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good; *it is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, it is . . . there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇavism. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas , Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says: "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He cannot chant. That is a show*-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no. Sanātana Gosvāmī, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than . . . in other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many other, they could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ : "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is . . . there are so many . . . such a big instruction book. It is not that whimsical. But still, we recommend that, "Go on chanting." This will help you, anyone. That is also good. It is exactly like that if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time; only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes, you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied, "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood would dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied—"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"—that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. It require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. (break) You must get the flame, otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "phat, phat, phat" As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it, let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man . . . he was a yogī . So he approached—it is not story; *it is fact—approached one big man that . . . as people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogī , "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can, in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga ." So, "How long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night, or as long as you . . ." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, for one night, then I shall give you such*-and-such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said: "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not . . . either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no, sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa ? During Kārttika month they . . . this is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said: "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) (chuckles) That lamp was three miles away, and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that, "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." (aside) Hmm. What is that? Some presentation? Amogha: Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that, "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not . . .?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw, "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense?" "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply, so that man was paid. (laughter) So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire, and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ . . . (BG 16.23). (aside) Hmm. So what are these things? Amogha: I noticed this morning while . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) (laughing) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head, and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice. Amogha: This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney—a scarf for you to wear in the cold. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. Amogha: And I also brought one from me. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Amogha: And some mangoes . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is good. Amogha: . . . from Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are really difficult to get. Prabhupāda: Mangoes, very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not? Amogha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya*-ca . . . two fruits. One fruit is the Neem tree fruit. You have seen Neem tree? In not your country. Neem tree you have seen in India, and their fruits . . . Bhūrijana: A little bitter. Prabhupāda: Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow, they eat that Neem tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this Neem tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden—there is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere, and the crows . . . you have seen it? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They enjoy that. Tad*-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . (aside) Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Satsvarūpa: Part One? *Prabhupāda: Na tad*-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ (SB 1.5.10). Jagattāriṇī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . no understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā , you will find the first beginning of teaching— dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . Find out. Satsvarūpa: *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education, because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. (to Bhūrijana) She has also gone, your wife? Bhūrijana: No, she will come back. Prabhupāda: That is, we . . . our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram (BG 2.13). Dehina , not the deha; dehi . (break) We are not working on deha. Deha means body, and dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the defect. Therefore it takes very, very long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body . . ." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education. They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education? Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions, or nowadays meditation, like that. *Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so*-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close it. It is closed? Satsvarūpa: Close the blind? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed. Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break) Satsvarūpa: . . . have to strain the juice from this mango? Prabhupāda: And did you do it? Satsvarūpa: No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice—first*-quality rice, second-quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third-quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bāsmatī . I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, " Babu . . ." babu means master—"this rice is not suitable for us." That fine bāsmatī rice, he did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have you seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes, "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. (break) . . . the big animals, the living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Cāru: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for. *Prabhupāda: No. Classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam ," life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). At that stage, samatā , equality, when one is brahma-bhūta , spiritualized. Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? Madhudviṣa: Dipaka? Prabhupāda: No, he has gone. Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him. Prabhupāda: All right. No, no. Madhudviṣa: I can send for him. It's all right. Prabhupāda: No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten to eight. (end) (Conversation with Scientists) Madhudviṣa: Dr. Harrap. Dr. Harrap: How do you do? Dr. Muncey: And Dr. Muncey. Madhudvisa: Dr. Muncey. Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse . . . (aside) You have got first part? Madhudviṣa: First part. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā . Satsvarūpa: Idam ? *Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . (devotees search for verse) Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Read. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Satsvarūpa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement in learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamoured by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection, or self-realization, depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by the viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies, because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them." "When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all non different from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous topics, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification." *"Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavour to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful, and all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All so-called knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all other similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana , or glorification of the Lord." Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness: everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection. Dr. Muncey: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world, but we don't seem to have got their life qualities good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this. Dr. Harrap: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They can record it? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Dr. Harrap: This stand's got a complicated contraption here. It makes very little contact . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the Existence of the Supreme Scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this. Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19) "When we think calmly and carefully about this wonderful universe, we can see that everything is working under the control of a supreme brain. The arrangements in nature are perfectly ordered. Things would be at random without the careful planning of a scientific and engineering brain. It is a common understanding that there is a cause behind each action. A machine cannot run without an operator. Modern scientists are very proud of automation, but there is a scientific brain behind automation also. Even Albert Einstein agreed that there is a perfect brain behind all the natural physical laws. When we talk about 'brain' and 'operator,' these terms imply a person. They cannot be impersonal. One may inquire who this person is. He is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist and supreme engineer, under whose kind will the whole cosmos is working. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: 'The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.' " (BG 9.8) *"Now let us look a few samples from the Lord's creation, and upon contemplating these exemplary aspects, one should develop a better understanding and appreciation of the existence of the most powerful brain, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The sun that we see daily is the nearest star. It is one hundred earth diameters across and is ninety*-three million miles away from the earth. Every day the sun supplies the solar system with a tremendous amount of heat, light and energy. A quote, 'The very tiny fraction of the sun's energy that falls on the earth—estimated at about five parts in a hundred million million—is about 100,000 times greater than all the energy used in the world's industries. The total energy the sun emits in a single second would be sufficient to keep a 1 kilowatt electric fire burning for 10,000 million million years. Put in a different way, the energy the sun emits in one second is greater than the whole amount of energy the human species has consumed throughout its entire history, a quote from Fred Hoyle astronomy, 'Yet it is only one of the countless number of stars floating in the sky in every direction. With the material scientific brain, the thermal, electrical and nuclear powerhouses have been made. These can supply heat, light and energy to a small, limited extent, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is supplying the whole planet with an unlimited source of energy just from one sun. Kṛṣṇa says: 'The splendour of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendour of the moon and the splendour of fire are also from Me.' (BG 15.12) The planets are revolving in a systematic path around the sun. Even within the smallest atom, the electrons and the protons are orbiting around the nucleus in a perfect manner." *"Thus, from the submicroscopic realm of the atom to the expanding reaches of the galactic objects, this material universe is running like intricate, well*-oiled clockwork according to great natural physical laws and principles. Scientists have gained great acclaim for making a few spaceships, whereas Kṛṣṇa effortlessly produces gigantic spaceships, such as planets and stars, which are perfectly equipped and maintained. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni dhārayāmy aham ojāsa : 'I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit.' (BG 15.13) The laws made by the supreme brain always remain perfect; they are never violated. We never see the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. The colourful rainbow that we observe when the sun is shining during a shower is only visible when the sun is behind the observer, due to the laws of refraction. Also, each year the seasons change quite periodically, producing symptoms unique to each season." "Now let us look into some aspects of the Lord's creation at the molecular level. Chemists find that the different colours in flowers are due to chemicals called anthocyanins, and the different aromas are mostly due to chemicals called terpenes and terpenoid compounds. The molecular frameworks for these compounds range from very simple structures to very complex networks. Camphor, for example, is a terpenoid compound, and the characteristic odour of lemons is due to the molecule called limonene, which is one of the simple terpenes. Similarly, the characteristic colours in carrots and tomatoes are due to molecules called carotenoids, which are higher forms of terpenes. The molecular framework for each definite colour or aroma is wonderfully unique. A little change in position of a few atoms in the molecule, a little variation in the geometry of the molecule or a slight change in the size of the molecule can cause a colour to change from orange to red, a mild, pleasing aroma to become repellent and pungent, and a flavor to change from sweet to bitter." "On one extreme we find the smallest molecule, the hydrogen molecule, which contains only two atoms of hydrogen. On the other extreme we find giant molecules such as the proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA), the building blocks of all living material bodies, which contain innumerable atoms made for a definite function. Similarly, the crystalline pattern of each different molecule is unique. The geometrical shape for sodium chloride (common salt), for example, is cubical. Charcoal, graphite and diamonds are all derived from the same element, carbon, and yet the shining and transparent diamond is extremely hard, whereas graphite is soft, black and opaque. This is due to the difference in the crystalline forms of these molecules. In the crystal lattice of the diamond, each carbon atom is tetrahedrally surrounded by four other carbon atoms at a distance of 1.54 angstroms (one angstrom = 10-8sq cm) In graphite, by contrast, the three bonds of each carbon atom are distorted so as to lie in the same plane, the fourth bond being directed perpendicularly to this plane to link with a carbon atom of the neighbouring layer." *"In this way we can cite innumerable examples of molecular networks so fantastically and delicately arranged that chemists cannot but wonder about the most expert hand and brain who is making all these wonderfully artistic arrangements in His laboratory. Indeed, the intelligence and ability of the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are inconceivable ( acintya ). There is no scientist who can deny it. How, then, can any chemist abstain from appreciating the wonderful works of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa? In Bhagavad*-gītā we find: 'One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.' " (BG 8.9) *"At best, scientists can only try to imitate the wonderful artistic works of the Supreme Lord. They cannot even do this properly, and most of their attempts lead to failure and disappointment. Even when they are partly successful, it is only with the greatest difficulty. For example, Professor R. B. Woodward of Harvard, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry (1965) and Professor A. Eschenmoser of Zurich took eleven years to synthesize the vitamin B12 molecule. Altogether, ninety*-nine scientists from nineteen different countries were involved just to accomplish this one small task. Yet Kṛṣṇa is making all these complex molecules at will." "Interestingly enough, when scientists fail again and again in their attempts to make something, they consciously or unconsciously pray to God for help. Does this not indicate the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and the natural subordinate position of all other living entities? A crude example is the explosion that occurred inside the Apollo 13 spacecraft during its attempt to land on the moon on April 11, 1970. The Apollo capsule was made by hundreds of scientific and technological brains and cost millions of dollars. No one could predict that there would be an explosion. When it happened, however, and the lives of the three astronauts were in danger, those involved in the mission requested all the people on earth to pray to God for the safe return of the astronauts. Such is the situation. At times of danger, people tend to remember God, although at other times they forget Him." "Now, let us look into some very simple and graphic examples of the artistry of the Lord's creation. We see that among the lower forms of living entities, social organization is very smoothly maintained. For example, in a bee colony the queen bee is nicely taken care of by the drones (male bees), while the workers collect nectar from flowers all day long. It is quite amazing to consider how the bees, with their tiny bodies, can collect such a great amount of honey for themselves as well as for other living entities. In this way, the colony is maintained with beautiful order. Similarly, the loving relationship between a mother and her baby is quite clearly visible even in very small forms of living entities. During the monsoon season in tropical countries, when there are torrents of rain, the small ants run to find shelter, carrying their eggs on their heads. The spider makes its wonderful webs with great architectural skill to serve as a shelter as well as to catch its prey for survival. Silkworms spin hundreds of yards of fine threads to form cocoons for their shelter during the pupa stage. Inside a tiny seed, smaller than the size of a mustard seed, the whole potency of a big banyan tree is present. In this way, we can see the wonderful arrangements of the Supreme Lord, who is creating, maintaining and guiding all living entities, small or big. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being—moving or unmoving—that can exist without Me.' " (BG 10.39) Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it? Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his . . . Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57) "About the Author. Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa Brahmacārī was born in a Vaiṣṇava (devoted) family in Manipur, India, on February 25, 1941. His father, Jogendra Singh, died when he was a mere child. In 1961 he earned his B.S. degree, with highest honours, in Chemistry from Gauhati University, and he earned his master's degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemical Technology with similar honours from Calcutta University in 1964. He was a recipient of a Research Fellowship from the University Grants Commission. "Allured by material advancement, he came to the United States of America and joined the Department of Chemistry, Canisius College, Buffalo, New York, in 1967 and obtained an M.S. degree in Chemistry in 1969. Then he joined the Department of Chemistry, University of California, Irvine, where he is finishing his Ph.D. in Physical Organic Chemistry." Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background. Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist? Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the . . . Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong to your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and . . . Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centres where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the . . . most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centres are working in that fashion. We have a school for children, where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America. Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centres are, where some of them are? Madhudviṣa: The centres are all over the world. We have centres in America and centres . . . Prabhupāda: We have got forty centres in America. Dr. Harrap: Forty. Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes. Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests. *Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language, but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. *Dr. Muncey: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern*-day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Harrap: Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. Dr. Muncey: We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholesterol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you? Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful. Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter . . . Dr. Muncey: The milkfat and . . . Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat. Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? (guests laugh) How it is harmful? If it is harmful, why you are giving milk to the child? *Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two percent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different to the cow for the milk that we get from the non*-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants. Prabhupāda: But I think there is a book, Miracles of Milk, written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products. Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so . . . has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholesterol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the polyten level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholesterol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to . . . among many in the medical profession, to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats. Prabhupāda: (aside) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter? Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way, by a special feeding techniques to the cows. *Prabhupāda: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk, because you'll find in this book that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk, is important, not other animal's milk. Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk? Prabhupāda: Human milk is natural. Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk. Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholesterol. (laughter) Cholesterol is no problem for you. Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak one of our . . . yes, you know him? One of our senior staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk. *Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa says that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (aside) Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa book? Cāru: *Translation: "Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labour and service to others . . ." Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa . . . we are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture. Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and saturated . . . Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely. Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity. Dr. Harrap: Well, Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Harrap: you should . . . the advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, then you should increase the ratio between the polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana, I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex. *Prabhupāda: No, practically also you see, formerly big, big saintly person, they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the . . . he has written Mahābhārata , one hundred thousand verses, and similarly, this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk, and fruits. Yes. Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncey has taken the lead in C.S.I.R.O. (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation) in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat. Dr. Muncey: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted—the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia, where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past. Madhudviṣa: He wants . . . he would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with, as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world, and what Australia can, can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science and as well as general living. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, so far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries . . . the population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the overpopulated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā we have the statement . . . (aside) Find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni . (aside) Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Cāru: Translation: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." Prabhupāda: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain, both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps ploughing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors . . . what is called? Tractor? Madhudviṣa: Cultivators. Prabhupāda: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation, and the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labour, and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop. Dr. Muncey: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area couldn't . . . the area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand, I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards. *Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain, because the terrain is just not suited to the grain*-growing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The land is not suitable? *Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts or semi*-deserts. And the gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural . . . the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us . . . you see, there's people that don't have the essentials, and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking, and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. Dr. Harrap: I think . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . point, these are all misconception, because I am not this body; I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit . . . they are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian," "white," "black." Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they're dividing, this designation. So this knowledge, that so long the spirit soul is there in the body it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body? Dr. Muncey: Yes, I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, is material and dead, in the terms we use, and the spirit moves on, but, and I accept from that, that at that stage one has nothing to . . . one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity, and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the, the important factor . . . just like our this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination there is an active principle, which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect. Dr. Muncey: I think I disagree with that. Dr. Harrap: I'm, I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would take a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community. Prabhupāda: That I admit. That I admit. Yes. Dr. Harrap: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Harrap: Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now? Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but you still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this? Dr. Harrap: They used to use sundial. Yes, yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch. Dr. Harrap: I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screwdriving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Dr. Harrap: It, it . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that science? That is my proposition. Dr. Harrap: It, it wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Harrap: that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency . . . Prabhupāda: Creative faculty . . . therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain? Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the . . . that I think that I . . . Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? This is the must . . . as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist, but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist. Dr. Muncey: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment; but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has there a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present. Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. (aside) So you, you, can you, can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweetball? Satsvarūpa: Where are they? I could not find them just now. Prabhupāda: You go and find out. *Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that . . . what we call a gouda cheese, which comes from originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries, and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. That seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese*-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more, more and more popular in these countries. Prabhupāda: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya . People . . . a class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food. Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat*-eaters, they can eat other, non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya . Does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "Elephant- rakṣya ." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. Dr. Harrap: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So therefore it is recommended, go*-rakṣya . It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other, non-important animals, but don't kill animal, er, cow. *And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she's mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā , real mother. Ādau mātā . Guru patnī , the wife of guru , the spiritual master. Ādau mātā , guru patnī, brāhmaṇī , the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are, who are brāhmaṇa , that is also mentioned there in the śāstra . So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī . . . in general the understanding is, any except your wife, all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu : "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya . You cannot, I mean evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over, "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." I in our Society, we get married. Your government has approved our Society that we can . . . so . . . Madhudviṣa: The government the, Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages. Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that? Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell . . . Guest (2): Yes, yes we, if we were alarmed, we wouldn't be here. Woman: And me too and . . . Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and . . . it is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasure house of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is a institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know the, what is the active principle of life. Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some . . . Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first. Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmin friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India? Prabhupāda: Yes I have, from the revealed scripture we can understand from . . . (aside) You have got the first part of *Bhāgavatam* ? Cāru: Yes, right here. Part One? Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra ? Satsvarūpa: That's not in that book. That's in Three, I think. Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear, nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra . So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptoms of nuclear weapon . . . (to devotees) Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho . That is . . . Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume. Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You say you have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said: "Yes, we have got enough stock." Madhudviṣa: We have them, but we do not have them here. Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . . here are people coming, gentlemen coming. Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are, what you are thinking about India, India's . . . Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Anyway, why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam . When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this." No. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). (aside) Find out this verse. Cāru: *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." *Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of that soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) means a learned, advanced spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. Such-and-such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Cāru: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā . *Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out this verse. Cāru: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature." Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural . . . material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body; next life I may get another body. That is explained— tathā dehāntara prāpti . We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, and then next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education? There is no science. But this is a fact. Guest (2): (to other guest) Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in on the . . . Guest (1): I think you've answered . . . Prabhupāda: Give them. Madhudviṣa: These are, these are preparation which is prepared from Australian milk. Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes. Guest (2): Oh, thank you. Madhudviṣa: Give a napkin. It's a little sweet . . . it's a sweet preparation called gulābjāmun . It is all prepared just from milk which has been boil made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee , cooking ghee , and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and is very palatable. It's called a gulābjāmun . It is a, a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires a great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely. Prabhupāda: This cheese as you, as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat. Madhudviṣa: Protein. Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein. Prabhupāda: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk. Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar . . . Madhudviṣa: Syrup. Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India? Madhudviṣa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Guest (2): You made it here. Madhudviṣa: Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science. Guest (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take. Why you are not . . . it is very nice. Guest (2): You mean to eat it now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife. Prabhupāda: No, no, you take, you take it. You just . . . Guest (2): Oh that's a shame. Madhudviṣa: I can give you another. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you like, we shall give you more. Satsvarūpa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though. Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it. Prabhupāda: And if you send us cheese like this, we can send you many things. (laughter) Dr. Muncey: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family. Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but . . . (laughter) Dr. Muncey: It's very good. Prabhupāda: Shall I give you more? Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home? Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes. Dr. Muncey: Well, this has been most interesting. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Well public relations meant for dairy research yes. Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues, fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply, oh well if I disagree with you we'll just fight. It has to be fine brain tissues in order to say: "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we, and we say that not we, but according to the scripture—there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products—not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products—the consumption of milk products and the development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. You know, the vegetables, rice, everything . . . even if rice was boiled, milk was put on . . . ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical, you know, progress. Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee , clarified butter, was offered in the yajña . The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation. Guest (2): Well, thank you very much . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you very . . . (break) Madhudviṣa: . . . and they liked the sweet ball. Prabhupāda: Who has made? Madhudviṣa: One girl. (end) (Conversation with Scientists) Madhudviṣa: Dr. Harrap. Dr. Harrap: How do you do? Dr. Muncey: And Dr. Muncey. Madhudvisa: Dr. Muncey. Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse . . . (aside) You have got first part? Madhudviṣa: First part. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā . Satsvarūpa: Idam ? *Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . (devotees search for verse) Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Read. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Satsvarūpa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement in learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamoured by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection, or self-realization, depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by the viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies, because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them." "When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all non different from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous topics, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification." *"Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavour to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful, and all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All so-called knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all other similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana , or glorification of the Lord." Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness: everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection. Dr. Muncey: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world, but we don't seem to have got their life qualities good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this. Dr. Harrap: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They can record it? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Dr. Harrap: This stand's got a complicated contraption here. It makes very little contact . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the Existence of the Supreme Scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this. Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19) "When we think calmly and carefully about this wonderful universe, we can see that everything is working under the control of a supreme brain. The arrangements in nature are perfectly ordered. Things would be at random without the careful planning of a scientific and engineering brain. It is a common understanding that there is a cause behind each action. A machine cannot run without an operator. Modern scientists are very proud of automation, but there is a scientific brain behind automation also. Even Albert Einstein agreed that there is a perfect brain behind all the natural physical laws. When we talk about 'brain' and 'operator,' these terms imply a person. They cannot be impersonal. One may inquire who this person is. He is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist and supreme engineer, under whose kind will the whole cosmos is working. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: 'The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.' " (BG 9.8) *"Now let us look a few samples from the Lord's creation, and upon contemplating these exemplary aspects, one should develop a better understanding and appreciation of the existence of the most powerful brain, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The sun that we see daily is the nearest star. It is one hundred earth diameters across and is ninety*-three million miles away from the earth. Every day the sun supplies the solar system with a tremendous amount of heat, light and energy. A quote, 'The very tiny fraction of the sun's energy that falls on the earth—estimated at about five parts in a hundred million million—is about 100,000 times greater than all the energy used in the world's industries. The total energy the sun emits in a single second would be sufficient to keep a 1 kilowatt electric fire burning for 10,000 million million years. Put in a different way, the energy the sun emits in one second is greater than the whole amount of energy the human species has consumed throughout its entire history, a quote from Fred Hoyle astronomy, 'Yet it is only one of the countless number of stars floating in the sky in every direction. With the material scientific brain, the thermal, electrical and nuclear powerhouses have been made. These can supply heat, light and energy to a small, limited extent, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is supplying the whole planet with an unlimited source of energy just from one sun. Kṛṣṇa says: 'The splendour of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendour of the moon and the splendour of fire are also from Me.' (BG 15.12) The planets are revolving in a systematic path around the sun. Even within the smallest atom, the electrons and the protons are orbiting around the nucleus in a perfect manner." *"Thus, from the submicroscopic realm of the atom to the expanding reaches of the galactic objects, this material universe is running like intricate, well*-oiled clockwork according to great natural physical laws and principles. Scientists have gained great acclaim for making a few spaceships, whereas Kṛṣṇa effortlessly produces gigantic spaceships, such as planets and stars, which are perfectly equipped and maintained. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni dhārayāmy aham ojāsa : 'I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit.' (BG 15.13) The laws made by the supreme brain always remain perfect; they are never violated. We never see the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. The colourful rainbow that we observe when the sun is shining during a shower is only visible when the sun is behind the observer, due to the laws of refraction. Also, each year the seasons change quite periodically, producing symptoms unique to each season." "Now let us look into some aspects of the Lord's creation at the molecular level. Chemists find that the different colours in flowers are due to chemicals called anthocyanins, and the different aromas are mostly due to chemicals called terpenes and terpenoid compounds. The molecular frameworks for these compounds range from very simple structures to very complex networks. Camphor, for example, is a terpenoid compound, and the characteristic odour of lemons is due to the molecule called limonene, which is one of the simple terpenes. Similarly, the characteristic colours in carrots and tomatoes are due to molecules called carotenoids, which are higher forms of terpenes. The molecular framework for each definite colour or aroma is wonderfully unique. A little change in position of a few atoms in the molecule, a little variation in the geometry of the molecule or a slight change in the size of the molecule can cause a colour to change from orange to red, a mild, pleasing aroma to become repellent and pungent, and a flavor to change from sweet to bitter." "On one extreme we find the smallest molecule, the hydrogen molecule, which contains only two atoms of hydrogen. On the other extreme we find giant molecules such as the proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA), the building blocks of all living material bodies, which contain innumerable atoms made for a definite function. Similarly, the crystalline pattern of each different molecule is unique. The geometrical shape for sodium chloride (common salt), for example, is cubical. Charcoal, graphite and diamonds are all derived from the same element, carbon, and yet the shining and transparent diamond is extremely hard, whereas graphite is soft, black and opaque. This is due to the difference in the crystalline forms of these molecules. In the crystal lattice of the diamond, each carbon atom is tetrahedrally surrounded by four other carbon atoms at a distance of 1.54 angstroms (one angstrom = 10-8sq cm) In graphite, by contrast, the three bonds of each carbon atom are distorted so as to lie in the same plane, the fourth bond being directed perpendicularly to this plane to link with a carbon atom of the neighbouring layer." *"In this way we can cite innumerable examples of molecular networks so fantastically and delicately arranged that chemists cannot but wonder about the most expert hand and brain who is making all these wonderfully artistic arrangements in His laboratory. Indeed, the intelligence and ability of the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are inconceivable ( acintya ). There is no scientist who can deny it. How, then, can any chemist abstain from appreciating the wonderful works of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa? In Bhagavad*-gītā we find: 'One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.' " (BG 8.9) *"At best, scientists can only try to imitate the wonderful artistic works of the Supreme Lord. They cannot even do this properly, and most of their attempts lead to failure and disappointment. Even when they are partly successful, it is only with the greatest difficulty. For example, Professor R. B. Woodward of Harvard, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry (1965) and Professor A. Eschenmoser of Zurich took eleven years to synthesize the vitamin B12 molecule. Altogether, ninety*-nine scientists from nineteen different countries were involved just to accomplish this one small task. Yet Kṛṣṇa is making all these complex molecules at will." "Interestingly enough, when scientists fail again and again in their attempts to make something, they consciously or unconsciously pray to God for help. Does this not indicate the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and the natural subordinate position of all other living entities? A crude example is the explosion that occurred inside the Apollo 13 spacecraft during its attempt to land on the moon on April 11, 1970. The Apollo capsule was made by hundreds of scientific and technological brains and cost millions of dollars. No one could predict that there would be an explosion. When it happened, however, and the lives of the three astronauts were in danger, those involved in the mission requested all the people on earth to pray to God for the safe return of the astronauts. Such is the situation. At times of danger, people tend to remember God, although at other times they forget Him." "Now, let us look into some very simple and graphic examples of the artistry of the Lord's creation. We see that among the lower forms of living entities, social organization is very smoothly maintained. For example, in a bee colony the queen bee is nicely taken care of by the drones (male bees), while the workers collect nectar from flowers all day long. It is quite amazing to consider how the bees, with their tiny bodies, can collect such a great amount of honey for themselves as well as for other living entities. In this way, the colony is maintained with beautiful order. Similarly, the loving relationship between a mother and her baby is quite clearly visible even in very small forms of living entities. During the monsoon season in tropical countries, when there are torrents of rain, the small ants run to find shelter, carrying their eggs on their heads. The spider makes its wonderful webs with great architectural skill to serve as a shelter as well as to catch its prey for survival. Silkworms spin hundreds of yards of fine threads to form cocoons for their shelter during the pupa stage. Inside a tiny seed, smaller than the size of a mustard seed, the whole potency of a big banyan tree is present. In this way, we can see the wonderful arrangements of the Supreme Lord, who is creating, maintaining and guiding all living entities, small or big. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being—moving or unmoving—that can exist without Me.' " (BG 10.39) Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it? Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his . . . Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57) "About the Author. Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa Brahmacārī was born in a Vaiṣṇava (devoted) family in Manipur, India, on February 25, 1941. His father, Jogendra Singh, died when he was a mere child. In 1961 he earned his B.S. degree, with highest honours, in Chemistry from Gauhati University, and he earned his master's degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemical Technology with similar honours from Calcutta University in 1964. He was a recipient of a Research Fellowship from the University Grants Commission. "Allured by material advancement, he came to the United States of America and joined the Department of Chemistry, Canisius College, Buffalo, New York, in 1967 and obtained an M.S. degree in Chemistry in 1969. Then he joined the Department of Chemistry, University of California, Irvine, where he is finishing his Ph.D. in Physical Organic Chemistry." Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background. Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist? Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the . . . Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong to your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and . . . Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centres where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the . . . most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centres are working in that fashion. We have a school for children, where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America. Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centres are, where some of them are? Madhudviṣa: The centres are all over the world. We have centres in America and centres . . . Prabhupāda: We have got forty centres in America. Dr. Harrap: Forty. Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes. Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests. *Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language, but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. *Dr. Muncey: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern*-day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Harrap: Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. Dr. Muncey: We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholesterol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you? Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful. Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter . . . Dr. Muncey: The milkfat and . . . Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat. Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? (guests laugh) How it is harmful? If it is harmful, why you are giving milk to the child? *Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two percent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different to the cow for the milk that we get from the non*-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants. Prabhupāda: But I think there is a book, Miracles of Milk, written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products. Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so . . . has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholesterol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the polyten level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholesterol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to . . . among many in the medical profession, to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats. Prabhupāda: (aside) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter? Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way, by a special feeding techniques to the cows. *Prabhupāda: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk, because you'll find in this book that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk, is important, not other animal's milk. Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk? Prabhupāda: Human milk is natural. Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk. Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholesterol. (laughter) Cholesterol is no problem for you. Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak one of our . . . yes, you know him? One of our senior staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk. *Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa says that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (aside) Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa book? Cāru: *Translation: "Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labour and service to others . . ." Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa . . . we are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture. Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and saturated . . . Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely. Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity. Dr. Harrap: Well, Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Harrap: you should . . . the advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, then you should increase the ratio between the polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana, I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex. *Prabhupāda: No, practically also you see, formerly big, big saintly person, they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the . . . he has written Mahābhārata , one hundred thousand verses, and similarly, this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk, and fruits. Yes. Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncey has taken the lead in C.S.I.R.O. (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation) in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat. Dr. Muncey: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted—the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia, where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past. Madhudviṣa: He wants . . . he would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with, as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world, and what Australia can, can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science and as well as general living. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, so far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries . . . the population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the overpopulated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā we have the statement . . . (aside) Find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni . (aside) Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Cāru: Translation: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." Prabhupāda: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain, both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps ploughing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors . . . what is called? Tractor? Madhudviṣa: Cultivators. Prabhupāda: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation, and the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labour, and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop. Dr. Muncey: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area couldn't . . . the area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand, I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards. *Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain, because the terrain is just not suited to the grain*-growing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The land is not suitable? *Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts or semi*-deserts. And the gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural . . . the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us . . . you see, there's people that don't have the essentials, and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking, and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. Dr. Harrap: I think . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . point, these are all misconception, because I am not this body; I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit . . . they are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian," "white," "black." Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they're dividing, this designation. So this knowledge, that so long the spirit soul is there in the body it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body? Dr. Muncey: Yes, I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, is material and dead, in the terms we use, and the spirit moves on, but, and I accept from that, that at that stage one has nothing to . . . one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity, and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the, the important factor . . . just like our this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination there is an active principle, which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect. Dr. Muncey: I think I disagree with that. Dr. Harrap: I'm, I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would take a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community. Prabhupāda: That I admit. That I admit. Yes. Dr. Harrap: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Harrap: Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now? Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but you still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this? Dr. Harrap: They used to use sundial. Yes, yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch. Dr. Harrap: I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screwdriving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Dr. Harrap: It, it . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that science? That is my proposition. Dr. Harrap: It, it wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Harrap: that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency . . . Prabhupāda: Creative faculty . . . therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain? Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the . . . that I think that I . . . Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? This is the must . . . as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist, but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist. Dr. Muncey: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment; but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has there a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present. Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. (aside) So you, you, can you, can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweetball? Satsvarūpa: Where are they? I could not find them just now. Prabhupāda: You go and find out. *Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that . . . what we call a gouda cheese, which comes from originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries, and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. That seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese*-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more, more and more popular in these countries. Prabhupāda: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya . People . . . a class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food. Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat*-eaters, they can eat other, non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya . Does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "Elephant- rakṣya ." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. Dr. Harrap: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So therefore it is recommended, go*-rakṣya . It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other, non-important animals, but don't kill animal, er, cow. *And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she's mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā , real mother. Ādau mātā . Guru patnī , the wife of guru , the spiritual master. Ādau mātā , guru patnī, brāhmaṇī , the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are, who are brāhmaṇa , that is also mentioned there in the śāstra . So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī . . . in general the understanding is, any except your wife, all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu : "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya . You cannot, I mean evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over, "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." I in our Society, we get married. Your government has approved our Society that we can . . . so . . . Madhudviṣa: The government the, Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages. Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that? Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell . . . Guest (2): Yes, yes we, if we were alarmed, we wouldn't be here. Woman: And me too and . . . Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and . . . it is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasure house of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is a institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know the, what is the active principle of life. Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some . . . Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first. Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmin friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India? Prabhupāda: Yes I have, from the revealed scripture we can understand from . . . (aside) You have got the first part of *Bhāgavatam* ? Cāru: Yes, right here. Part One? Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra ? Satsvarūpa: That's not in that book. That's in Three, I think. Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear, nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra . So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptoms of nuclear weapon . . . (to devotees) Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho . That is . . . Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume. Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You say you have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said: "Yes, we have got enough stock." Madhudviṣa: We have them, but we do not have them here. Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . . here are people coming, gentlemen coming. Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are, what you are thinking about India, India's . . . Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Anyway, why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam . When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this." No. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). (aside) Find out this verse. Cāru: *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." *Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of that soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) means a learned, advanced spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. Such-and-such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Cāru: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā . *Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out this verse. Cāru: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature." Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural . . . material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body; next life I may get another body. That is explained— tathā dehāntara prāpti . We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, and then next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education? There is no science. But this is a fact. Guest (2): (to other guest) Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in on the . . . Guest (1): I think you've answered . . . Prabhupāda: Give them. Madhudviṣa: These are, these are preparation which is prepared from Australian milk. Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes. Guest (2): Oh, thank you. Madhudviṣa: Give a napkin. It's a little sweet . . . it's a sweet preparation called gulābjāmun . It is all prepared just from milk which has been boil made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee , cooking ghee , and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and is very palatable. It's called a gulābjāmun . It is a, a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires a great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely. Prabhupāda: This cheese as you, as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat. Madhudviṣa: Protein. Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein. Prabhupāda: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk. Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar . . . Madhudviṣa: Syrup. Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India? Madhudviṣa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Guest (2): You made it here. Madhudviṣa: Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science. Guest (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take. Why you are not . . . it is very nice. Guest (2): You mean to eat it now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife. Prabhupāda: No, no, you take, you take it. You just . . . Guest (2): Oh that's a shame. Madhudviṣa: I can give you another. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you like, we shall give you more. Satsvarūpa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though. Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it. Prabhupāda: And if you send us cheese like this, we can send you many things. (laughter) Dr. Muncey: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family. Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but . . . (laughter) Dr. Muncey: It's very good. Prabhupāda: Shall I give you more? Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home? Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes. Dr. Muncey: Well, this has been most interesting. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Well public relations meant for dairy research yes. Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues, fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply, oh well if I disagree with you we'll just fight. It has to be fine brain tissues in order to say: "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we, and we say that not we, but according to the scripture—there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products—not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products—the consumption of milk products and the development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. You know, the vegetables, rice, everything . . . even if rice was boiled, milk was put on . . . ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical, you know, progress. Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee , clarified butter, was offered in the yajña . The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation. Guest (2): Well, thank you very much . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you very . . . (break) Madhudviṣa: . . . and they liked the sweet ball. Prabhupāda: Who has made? Madhudviṣa: One girl. (end) Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (1): There's a market? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Huh? Reporter (1): That because the United States is so materialistic, the message of . . . Viśākhā: Take one. *Reporter (1): . . . anti*-materialism is more easily accepted than in places where things are not so? Prabhupāda: That is also another cause, because they are not satisfied. Otherwise, why hippies are coming? (aside) Come. The hippies are dissatisfied with the method of modern materialistic way of life. Is it not? Therefore voluntarily . . . Reporter (1): Yes. They have given away their possessions and . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter (1): . . . they have, they have chosen to . . . Prabhupāda: Voluntarily they are giving up possessions. (someone enters) Sit down. Woman Reporter: Hello. Hi. Sri Govinda: There is a reporter from the Chicago Daily News. Prabhupāda: Ah. Viśākhā: Take two. Reporter (1): . . . Krsna consciousness people among the hippies, because they had already given up material possessions, and so they were prepared for . . .? Prabhupāda: No, that means that they want to have something new, but they are not accepting what is actually better. Some of them are accepting. But there is frustration, there is no doubt. Reporter (1): There is no doubt . . .? Prabhupāda: Frustration. Reporter (1): Frustration. Prabhupāda: Yes. This way of, materialistic way of life, like their fathers, grandfathers, they do not like. Is it not? Huh? Reporter (1): I think so. Devotee: Yes. (break) (laughter) Woman Reporter: In Los Angeles, do you live . . . do you live in richness? Do you have a car, and a chauffeur, and a . . . Prabhupāda: Why not? Woman Reporter: . . . a yacht? Prabhupāda: I am . . . I am the guru of the richest country. Why shall I not have car? Do you follow? Woman Reporter: No, I don’t. (laughter) Prabhupāda: If I am guru of the richest country, then why shall I not have a car? Woman Reporter: So you . . . you have one? Prabhupāda: I have many. In each center I have got at least one dozen cars. (laughter) Just now I am coming from Europe—Germany. They have got nineteen vans. Nineteen. They go interior villages. The Volkswagen? What is called? Devotees: Volkswagen Bus. Prabhupāda: Bus, bus. Devotees: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So our devotees, they are packed up in each bus, and they go interior, in the village. Similarly, in every center we have got. In Germany, in England, in Los Angeles, in New York. Here also? Devotee (1): Yes. Sri Govinda: There's nine vehicles here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sri Govinda: Nine vehicles. Prabhupāda: Just see. Reporter (1): Nine vehicles in Chicago? Sri Govinda: Yes. Woman Reporter: Some spiritual leaders of, of various groups live in great richness, with a chauffeur, and, uh, uh, expensive cars and boats . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Reporter: What about you? Prabhupāda: That because I know you are envious, therefore I don’t sit here, I am sitting here. (laughter) You are very envious when a spiritual master is honored very nicely by his disciples. You become envious. What can be done? But that is the etiquette, that spiritual master is honored as good as God. But if you, you do not know, you become envious, "Why this man is sitting in this position, in this gorgeous way. Why he . . .?" What can be done? Woman Reporter: ' Are you honored as good as God? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda is the most exalted person walking on the earth. So he must be honored in the highest fashion. Prabhupāda: No. That is the injunction, yasya prasādād dharitvena . What is that verse? "A spiritual master should be honored as good as God." That is the injunction of the scripture. And people who are aware of this thing, they honor. (break) Reporter (1): But why did you not come to the United States until you were . . . 'til 1965? Why didn’t you come sooner? Or to England? Prabhupāda: That's a great, hmm, mystery. I was not thinking myself that, "I am fit now to go there." Reporter (1): And if you were not . . . Prabhupāda: I was thinking that, "At present, I am not fit." And besides that, I was family man at that time. I could not get the opportunity. So after renouncing the family life—then. I renounced family life in 1954. Woman Reporter: 1954? Prabhupāda: Yes. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. And then I came to your country in 1956. Reporter (1): What did you do in 1959? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa . Renouncing, officially renouncing. Officially renouncing family life. Woman Reporter: In ’59? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Reporter: What happened to your wife? Prabhupāda: Oh, I leave under the, her children, that's all. Devotee (1): The eldest son takes care of the wife, the mother. A very nice system. (end) Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (1): There's a market? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Huh? Reporter (1): That because the United States is so materialistic, the message of . . . Viśākhā: Take one. *Reporter (1): . . . anti*-materialism is more easily accepted than in places where things are not so? Prabhupāda: That is also another cause, because they are not satisfied. Otherwise, why hippies are coming? (aside) Come. The hippies are dissatisfied with the method of modern materialistic way of life. Is it not? Therefore voluntarily . . . Reporter (1): Yes. They have given away their possessions and . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter (1): . . . they have, they have chosen to . . . Prabhupāda: Voluntarily they are giving up possessions. (someone enters) Sit down. Woman Reporter: Hello. Hi. Sri Govinda: There is a reporter from the Chicago Daily News. Prabhupāda: Ah. Viśākhā: Take two. Reporter (1): . . . Krsna consciousness people among the hippies, because they had already given up material possessions, and so they were prepared for . . .? Prabhupāda: No, that means that they want to have something new, but they are not accepting what is actually better. Some of them are accepting. But there is frustration, there is no doubt. Reporter (1): There is no doubt . . .? Prabhupāda: Frustration. Reporter (1): Frustration. Prabhupāda: Yes. This way of, materialistic way of life, like their fathers, grandfathers, they do not like. Is it not? Huh? Reporter (1): I think so. Devotee: Yes. (break) (laughter) Woman Reporter: In Los Angeles, do you live . . . do you live in richness? Do you have a car, and a chauffeur, and a . . . Prabhupāda: Why not? Woman Reporter: . . . a yacht? Prabhupāda: I am . . . I am the guru of the richest country. Why shall I not have car? Do you follow? Woman Reporter: No, I don’t. (laughter) Prabhupāda: If I am guru of the richest country, then why shall I not have a car? Woman Reporter: So you . . . you have one? Prabhupāda: I have many. In each center I have got at least one dozen cars. (laughter) Just now I am coming from Europe—Germany. They have got nineteen vans. Nineteen. They go interior villages. The Volkswagen? What is called? Devotees: Volkswagen Bus. Prabhupāda: Bus, bus. Devotees: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So our devotees, they are packed up in each bus, and they go interior, in the village. Similarly, in every center we have got. In Germany, in England, in Los Angeles, in New York. Here also? Devotee (1): Yes. Sri Govinda: There's nine vehicles here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sri Govinda: Nine vehicles. Prabhupāda: Just see. Reporter (1): Nine vehicles in Chicago? Sri Govinda: Yes. Woman Reporter: Some spiritual leaders of, of various groups live in great richness, with a chauffeur, and, uh, uh, expensive cars and boats . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Reporter: What about you? Prabhupāda: That because I know you are envious, therefore I don’t sit here, I am sitting here. (laughter) You are very envious when a spiritual master is honored very nicely by his disciples. You become envious. What can be done? But that is the etiquette, that spiritual master is honored as good as God. But if you, you do not know, you become envious, "Why this man is sitting in this position, in this gorgeous way. Why he . . .?" What can be done? Woman Reporter: ' Are you honored as good as God? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda is the most exalted person walking on the earth. So he must be honored in the highest fashion. Prabhupāda: No. That is the injunction, yasya prasādād dharitvena . What is that verse? "A spiritual master should be honored as good as God." That is the injunction of the scripture. And people who are aware of this thing, they honor. (break) Reporter (1): But why did you not come to the United States until you were . . . 'til 1965? Why didn’t you come sooner? Or to England? Prabhupāda: That's a great, hmm, mystery. I was not thinking myself that, "I am fit now to go there." Reporter (1): And if you were not . . . Prabhupāda: I was thinking that, "At present, I am not fit." And besides that, I was family man at that time. I could not get the opportunity. So after renouncing the family life—then. I renounced family life in 1954. Woman Reporter: 1954? Prabhupāda: Yes. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. And then I came to your country in 1956. Reporter (1): What did you do in 1959? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa . Renouncing, officially renouncing. Officially renouncing family life. Woman Reporter: In ’59? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Reporter: What happened to your wife? Prabhupāda: Oh, I leave under the, her children, that's all. Devotee (1): The eldest son takes care of the wife, the mother. A very nice system. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . Gopala. Gurukṛpā: Gopala? He left. Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukṛpā: He was in māyā for a long time. He stole $6000 also. Devotee (2): No, he had twenty times that. Gurukṛpā: He must have gotten more. That's all I know. He took from the bank. Devotee (2): He could have got the whole thing, right? Gurukṛpā: He could have, but he couldn't, because it was in yen; he couldn't trade it in. But I had American money hidden for . . . because we are foreigners, we must keep some American money, and he knew where it was, and he took $4000 of that. Plus I don't know how much more he took—at least $6000 though—and he left his tridaṇḍi . He was supposed to go to Korea and file for missionary visas, and I looked in his drawer in his files, and he had not gone. But he had been away, and he came back and said that he went. So I took over all the money and everything, took over all the accounts, but I did not trust him because he was not chanting properly, and he was not Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then he snuck away. Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty, out of sight. Devotee (2): Hm. Gurukṛpā: I think it had been planned, though, for some time. It was very planned. Prabhupāda: Where he is now? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. He is a criminal. He has taken so much money. He has not left any message. Devotee (2): He sent back the bank book, right? Gurukṛpā: Yes. Devotee (2): He took the bank book with all . . . that had all money in it, with all this money. Gurukṛpā: He went to the bank to pay the rent, and he withdrew . . . he paid the rent and withdrew some for himself, and he left. Prabhupāda: Only his signature? Gurukṛpā: Only. Because he is the only one who has proper visa, he has business visa. That was the problem. Prabhupāda: So what news about Bhanu? Gurukṛpā: He is doing nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gurukṛpā: But he is very reluctant to become the president. He does not like the business. Prabhupāda: No, that is good. He thinks himself, and feels why should he take this money? Gurukṛpā: He is very intelligent, though. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent, good devotee. But he is doing any translation work? Gurukṛpā: No. Devotee (2): He is not able to translate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Because he has only learned Japanese since he went to Japan. He did not know it previously. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Gurukṛpā: He has translated the whole Bhagavad*-gītā , but it just sits there. They say it is not well enough translated, the Japanese people. Devotee (2): It will not be accepted. Prabhupāda: But he was translating? Devotee (2): He has been working on *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* , but not very quickly. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just met one boy here, a boy from Fukushima, Japan. Devotee (2): Who? Devotee (3): He speaks very little English, and he has shaven head and śikhā . And I just preached with him, and he is going to go back to Tokyo, and his visa is expiring in a week or two, and he says he wants to go back and help to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: He has formally joined that temple? Devotee (3): No. He is very intelligent boy. He speaks Spanish—a little bit of Spanish—Chinese, English—a little bit of English—and he is fluent, of course, because he is born in Japan. Devotee (4): That's what . . . that's what we need. Devotee (3): He came in contact with our movement in Los Angeles, and he just asked me the question, when he was a young boy in Fukushima he used to go to the Buddhist temples, and they play the drums. And he wanted to know why now, after so many years, he saw our saṅkīrtana party in Los Angeles, and he was very much attracted, so much so that he went with them to the temple and shaved his head. So I told him it was natural for him; that is why it is our position to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So he has a desire to return back to Japan and help with translating and study, and he has a good mind. His name is Fuji. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (3): Young. He is very nice. Prabhupāda: So what about Book Trust? I want to see that according to the Trust, desire, there is fifty percent for building . . . (indistinct) . . . temples, and fifty percent for reprinting, or printing. That is being observed or not? Devotee: Mm. Devotee (2): Well, we are giving as much as we can for the loans and with construction. We are just . . . Prabhupāda: Some business was started for . . . (indistinct) . . . for Book Trust? Devotee (2): No, not that I know of. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . (laughs) The jewelry business? Prabhupāda: And that business will not close. And in this way it will invest in some business risk. Devotee (2): Oh, that was with Karāndhara and Jayatīrtha. I did not even know about that. Prabhupāda: Invest . . . (indistinct) . . . should be stopped. Devotee (2): Yes, there is a loan that . . . Spiritual Sky has a large debt to the Book Trust, that they owe . . . Prabhupāda: How much? Devotee (2): Well, they told me it is somewhere 100,000, 150,000. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is this? Without consulting, Karāndhara has taken that money? Devotee (2): Yes. Apparently it was something that was done a long time ago. (break) Prabhupāda: Even I saw in Ramakrishna mission was sent. That's why I gave this solution. Now by God's grace it has . . . (indistinct) . . . nice business. Remember to do that. But this Trust money should not . . . Devotee (2): They cannot . . . they can work everything out themselves. (break) Prabhupāda: So Karāndhara is now in India. You have some correspondence? Devotee (2): Yes, he has . . . (break) Prabhupāda: He was Indian king. Devotee (2): That's why they recognize India, because they know that Lord Buddha is from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Buddhist group. India is also a holy place for their . . . Devotee (2): Buddhists. Prabhupāda: . . . Buddhists. They go to see. Just like we have got with our Jagannātha Purī, they have got similar places in India. In Madhya Pradesh, in Bihar. They visit all these places. (aside) So, give him something to eat. Devotee: Yes. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . Gopala. Gurukṛpā: Gopala? He left. Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukṛpā: He was in māyā for a long time. He stole $6000 also. Devotee (2): No, he had twenty times that. Gurukṛpā: He must have gotten more. That's all I know. He took from the bank. Devotee (2): He could have got the whole thing, right? Gurukṛpā: He could have, but he couldn't, because it was in yen; he couldn't trade it in. But I had American money hidden for . . . because we are foreigners, we must keep some American money, and he knew where it was, and he took $4000 of that. Plus I don't know how much more he took—at least $6000 though—and he left his tridaṇḍi . He was supposed to go to Korea and file for missionary visas, and I looked in his drawer in his files, and he had not gone. But he had been away, and he came back and said that he went. So I took over all the money and everything, took over all the accounts, but I did not trust him because he was not chanting properly, and he was not Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then he snuck away. Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty, out of sight. Devotee (2): Hm. Gurukṛpā: I think it had been planned, though, for some time. It was very planned. Prabhupāda: Where he is now? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. He is a criminal. He has taken so much money. He has not left any message. Devotee (2): He sent back the bank book, right? Gurukṛpā: Yes. Devotee (2): He took the bank book with all . . . that had all money in it, with all this money. Gurukṛpā: He went to the bank to pay the rent, and he withdrew . . . he paid the rent and withdrew some for himself, and he left. Prabhupāda: Only his signature? Gurukṛpā: Only. Because he is the only one who has proper visa, he has business visa. That was the problem. Prabhupāda: So what news about Bhanu? Gurukṛpā: He is doing nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gurukṛpā: But he is very reluctant to become the president. He does not like the business. Prabhupāda: No, that is good. He thinks himself, and feels why should he take this money? Gurukṛpā: He is very intelligent, though. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent, good devotee. But he is doing any translation work? Gurukṛpā: No. Devotee (2): He is not able to translate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Because he has only learned Japanese since he went to Japan. He did not know it previously. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Gurukṛpā: He has translated the whole Bhagavad*-gītā , but it just sits there. They say it is not well enough translated, the Japanese people. Devotee (2): It will not be accepted. Prabhupāda: But he was translating? Devotee (2): He has been working on *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* , but not very quickly. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just met one boy here, a boy from Fukushima, Japan. Devotee (2): Who? Devotee (3): He speaks very little English, and he has shaven head and śikhā . And I just preached with him, and he is going to go back to Tokyo, and his visa is expiring in a week or two, and he says he wants to go back and help to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: He has formally joined that temple? Devotee (3): No. He is very intelligent boy. He speaks Spanish—a little bit of Spanish—Chinese, English—a little bit of English—and he is fluent, of course, because he is born in Japan. Devotee (4): That's what . . . that's what we need. Devotee (3): He came in contact with our movement in Los Angeles, and he just asked me the question, when he was a young boy in Fukushima he used to go to the Buddhist temples, and they play the drums. And he wanted to know why now, after so many years, he saw our saṅkīrtana party in Los Angeles, and he was very much attracted, so much so that he went with them to the temple and shaved his head. So I told him it was natural for him; that is why it is our position to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So he has a desire to return back to Japan and help with translating and study, and he has a good mind. His name is Fuji. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (3): Young. He is very nice. Prabhupāda: So what about Book Trust? I want to see that according to the Trust, desire, there is fifty percent for building . . . (indistinct) . . . temples, and fifty percent for reprinting, or printing. That is being observed or not? Devotee: Mm. Devotee (2): Well, we are giving as much as we can for the loans and with construction. We are just . . . Prabhupāda: Some business was started for . . . (indistinct) . . . for Book Trust? Devotee (2): No, not that I know of. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . (laughs) The jewelry business? Prabhupāda: And that business will not close. And in this way it will invest in some business risk. Devotee (2): Oh, that was with Karāndhara and Jayatīrtha. I did not even know about that. Prabhupāda: Invest . . . (indistinct) . . . should be stopped. Devotee (2): Yes, there is a loan that . . . Spiritual Sky has a large debt to the Book Trust, that they owe . . . Prabhupāda: How much? Devotee (2): Well, they told me it is somewhere 100,000, 150,000. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is this? Without consulting, Karāndhara has taken that money? Devotee (2): Yes. Apparently it was something that was done a long time ago. (break) Prabhupāda: Even I saw in Ramakrishna mission was sent. That's why I gave this solution. Now by God's grace it has . . . (indistinct) . . . nice business. Remember to do that. But this Trust money should not . . . Devotee (2): They cannot . . . they can work everything out themselves. (break) Prabhupāda: So Karāndhara is now in India. You have some correspondence? Devotee (2): Yes, he has . . . (break) Prabhupāda: He was Indian king. Devotee (2): That's why they recognize India, because they know that Lord Buddha is from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Buddhist group. India is also a holy place for their . . . Devotee (2): Buddhists. Prabhupāda: . . . Buddhists. They go to see. Just like we have got with our Jagannātha Purī, they have got similar places in India. In Madhya Pradesh, in Bihar. They visit all these places. (aside) So, give him something to eat. Devotee: Yes. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . sa sannyāsī ( BG 6.1). The mission of sannyāsī is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Karmī. Karmī means he works, and he wants to enjoy the fruit. That is karmī . But Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, said, anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ (BG 6.1): one who does not take the result of karma . . . suppose you are a businessman. So you are working very hard, earning $50,000. If you don’t take that, then you are sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ, kāryaṁ : it is my duty. So if he does not take the result of karma , who will take? Kṛṣṇa said, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇa : "Give Me." (laughter) Kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi, yaj juhoṣi, yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi kuruṣva (BG 9.27). This is life. You read Eighteenth Chapter, very nice verse. To give up the karma phalaṁ , the result of your work, to Kṛṣṇa—that is real sannyāsa; *that is real renunciation. (aside) So you try to impress on that way. You have got . . . (indistinct) . . . at Los Angeles, and uncover . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see? Send directly to Bali*-mardana. Devotee: He gave me the address . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can leave the check here. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Whatever detail can be sent. Just like we are traveling, we require thousands and thousands of dollars. Why shall I neglect? You cannot . . . if I do not want to spend money for airplane, how could I come to your country? So money is required. Money is not bad. Money, if it is spent for Kṛṣṇa, then it is Lakṣmī, real Lakṣmī, as lakṣmī sahasra-śata sambrahma*-sev . . . (Bs. 5.29). Laksmi's business is to stay engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. So all the money of the world, it should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi : "Never mind whatever you are doing; *you give Me the result." Is it not? Bhagavad*-gītā , you have read it? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So give to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa wants money for paying the airplane fare. (laughter) I am going, daily from . . . (indistinct) . . . New York to London, London to here, there, spending thousands and thousands of dollars. So who will pay? Kṛṣṇa will pay. Because I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, He will pay. This is our Gosvāmīs' instruction. Everything, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), everything has relation with Kṛṣṇa. So even is Kṛṣṇa's money, why should He give it, as . . . (indistinct) . . . as material? Anything dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. It is not material. Karma vairāgya . Rūpa Gosvāmī. Phalgu means false renunciation. False. Just like Māyāvādīs, they think, "No, no, we shall not touch it." Why not? What money has done? Money is Lakṣmī. Why it should be not touched? But engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Of course, one who has no idea of Kṛṣṇa—he cannot spend for Kṛṣṇa—he should not touch. That is good, because he will misuse. He should not touch. But one who can . . . who knows how to spend money for Kṛṣṇa, why he should not? So, New York temple is very nice, very . . . (indistinct) . . . don’t be disturbed by outward elements. Fix up your understanding. Then māyā will not be able to touch. Our this flourishing condition, there are so many envious persons, they want to destroy this organization. Because the whole world is full of envious persons. Material world means envious. So they know, so many enemies are . . . Kṛṣṇa will already protect; otherwise so many counteracting things are going on, especially in India. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu had to face so many. Kṛṣṇa had to kill so many demons from the beginning. Devotee (1): Right from His birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there are many demons. We have no strength to kill them, but Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: They cannot win. Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Prahlāda Mahārāja could not kill Hiraṇyakaśipu, but Kṛṣṇa killed him. Anyone who is impediment to this movement, he will be killed. We must be also steady, very firmly convinced . . . (indistinct) . . . "I don’t care for them." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should never deviate from the plan . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever . . . man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can keep yourself on the standard, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā , to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa; *man*-manā bhava mad . . . mad yājī , worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, mad yājī . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Māṁ namaskuru . *Prabhupāda: And offering obeisances. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and distribute books, hear Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Deity worship. If you strictly follow these things, no māyā can touch you. And if you deviate, then māyā is very strong: immediately capture. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama maya (BG 7.14). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did we get the permit to build the temple in Bombay now? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did we get the permit to build . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . it cannot be checked by any material thing. Checking is for materialist, not for spiritual. (long pause) Don’t disagree with your wife. Since you have married, you have got good position. Then, first know that. Still you are . . . (indistinct) . . . one gets money if he is fortunate to have a good wife. And you are also fortunate, you have got sons . . . (indistinct) . . . putra . If one is fortunate to get nice husband, she gets nice son. And the husband gets good wife, he gets money. (laughter). It is tradition . . . (indistinct) . . . if one is good fortunate, he gets good wife like Taittirīya, (laughter) and gets money also. (laughter) Don’t fight. (break) (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . very intelligent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is a very big women's liberation movement in America, they call it Women Lib. So they want equal opportunity for women. Prabhupāda: But who will give birth to the child? (laughter) Where is that liberation? (laughter) Can the woman transfer to the man to give birth to the child? (laughter). Devotee (2): They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Where is the liberty? The woman has to carry the child for ten months—nature's way. To go against nature, that is foolishness. God has made woman. Man should have respect . . . (indistinct) . . . what woman can do, man cannot do. What man can do, woman cannot do. So how there can be equal rights? That is not possible. Everyone should do his own duty and be happy. Kāryaṁ karma karoti (BG 6.1): "It is my duty. I have to do it." Husband should give all comforts to the wife; she may not be uncomfortable in any way. They want food, cloth, little ornaments. Yes. In so many ways, the husband must give to keep the woman satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . in India you will find that the poor man, they will get—what is called—lead bangles. They cannot provide silver or gold, but bangle must be there. If not lead, then glass. She will be satisfied with good sārī , good bangle, good foods and some children. Thats all. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya (BG 4.8). Two things. Kṛṣṇa has got two things—to kill the demons and to benedict the devotees. (end) *Prabhupāda: . . . sa sannyāsī ( BG 6.1). The mission of sannyāsī is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Karmī. Karmī means he works, and he wants to enjoy the fruit. That is karmī . But Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, said, anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ (BG 6.1): one who does not take the result of karma . . . suppose you are a businessman. So you are working very hard, earning $50,000. If you don’t take that, then you are sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ, kāryaṁ : it is my duty. So if he does not take the result of karma , who will take? Kṛṣṇa said, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇa : "Give Me." (laughter) Kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi, yaj juhoṣi, yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi kuruṣva (BG 9.27). This is life. You read Eighteenth Chapter, very nice verse. To give up the karma phalaṁ , the result of your work, to Kṛṣṇa—that is real sannyāsa; *that is real renunciation. (aside) So you try to impress on that way. You have got . . . (indistinct) . . . at Los Angeles, and uncover . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see? Send directly to Bali*-mardana. Devotee: He gave me the address . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can leave the check here. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Whatever detail can be sent. Just like we are traveling, we require thousands and thousands of dollars. Why shall I neglect? You cannot . . . if I do not want to spend money for airplane, how could I come to your country? So money is required. Money is not bad. Money, if it is spent for Kṛṣṇa, then it is Lakṣmī, real Lakṣmī, as lakṣmī sahasra-śata sambrahma*-sev . . . (Bs. 5.29). Laksmi's business is to stay engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. So all the money of the world, it should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi : "Never mind whatever you are doing; *you give Me the result." Is it not? Bhagavad*-gītā , you have read it? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So give to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa wants money for paying the airplane fare. (laughter) I am going, daily from . . . (indistinct) . . . New York to London, London to here, there, spending thousands and thousands of dollars. So who will pay? Kṛṣṇa will pay. Because I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, He will pay. This is our Gosvāmīs' instruction. Everything, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), everything has relation with Kṛṣṇa. So even is Kṛṣṇa's money, why should He give it, as . . . (indistinct) . . . as material? Anything dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. It is not material. Karma vairāgya . Rūpa Gosvāmī. Phalgu means false renunciation. False. Just like Māyāvādīs, they think, "No, no, we shall not touch it." Why not? What money has done? Money is Lakṣmī. Why it should be not touched? But engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Of course, one who has no idea of Kṛṣṇa—he cannot spend for Kṛṣṇa—he should not touch. That is good, because he will misuse. He should not touch. But one who can . . . who knows how to spend money for Kṛṣṇa, why he should not? So, New York temple is very nice, very . . . (indistinct) . . . don’t be disturbed by outward elements. Fix up your understanding. Then māyā will not be able to touch. Our this flourishing condition, there are so many envious persons, they want to destroy this organization. Because the whole world is full of envious persons. Material world means envious. So they know, so many enemies are . . . Kṛṣṇa will already protect; otherwise so many counteracting things are going on, especially in India. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu had to face so many. Kṛṣṇa had to kill so many demons from the beginning. Devotee (1): Right from His birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there are many demons. We have no strength to kill them, but Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: They cannot win. Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Prahlāda Mahārāja could not kill Hiraṇyakaśipu, but Kṛṣṇa killed him. Anyone who is impediment to this movement, he will be killed. We must be also steady, very firmly convinced . . . (indistinct) . . . "I don’t care for them." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should never deviate from the plan . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever . . . man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can keep yourself on the standard, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā , to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa; *man*-manā bhava mad . . . mad yājī , worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, mad yājī . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Māṁ namaskuru . *Prabhupāda: And offering obeisances. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and distribute books, hear Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Deity worship. If you strictly follow these things, no māyā can touch you. And if you deviate, then māyā is very strong: immediately capture. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama maya (BG 7.14). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did we get the permit to build the temple in Bombay now? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did we get the permit to build . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . it cannot be checked by any material thing. Checking is for materialist, not for spiritual. (long pause) Don’t disagree with your wife. Since you have married, you have got good position. Then, first know that. Still you are . . . (indistinct) . . . one gets money if he is fortunate to have a good wife. And you are also fortunate, you have got sons . . . (indistinct) . . . putra . If one is fortunate to get nice husband, she gets nice son. And the husband gets good wife, he gets money. (laughter). It is tradition . . . (indistinct) . . . if one is good fortunate, he gets good wife like Taittirīya, (laughter) and gets money also. (laughter) Don’t fight. (break) (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . very intelligent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is a very big women's liberation movement in America, they call it Women Lib. So they want equal opportunity for women. Prabhupāda: But who will give birth to the child? (laughter) Where is that liberation? (laughter) Can the woman transfer to the man to give birth to the child? (laughter). Devotee (2): They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Where is the liberty? The woman has to carry the child for ten months—nature's way. To go against nature, that is foolishness. God has made woman. Man should have respect . . . (indistinct) . . . what woman can do, man cannot do. What man can do, woman cannot do. So how there can be equal rights? That is not possible. Everyone should do his own duty and be happy. Kāryaṁ karma karoti (BG 6.1): "It is my duty. I have to do it." Husband should give all comforts to the wife; she may not be uncomfortable in any way. They want food, cloth, little ornaments. Yes. In so many ways, the husband must give to keep the woman satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . in India you will find that the poor man, they will get—what is called—lead bangles. They cannot provide silver or gold, but bangle must be there. If not lead, then glass. She will be satisfied with good sārī , good bangle, good foods and some children. Thats all. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya (BG 4.8). Two things. Kṛṣṇa has got two things—to kill the demons and to benedict the devotees. (end) Prabhupāda: . . . the business of the representative of Kṛṣṇa to push the nipple. Because they know what is the necessity. The whole world is upset for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the necessity. It is not a, I mean to say, whimsical sporting. It is the necessity. But they do not know. It is a very responsible task. That is called prayojana . Is it clear? What do you think? Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, they . . . there has to be . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know. The scientists, they do not know what is the necessity. (laughs) Do they know? Do you think, all the scientists, do they know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they know, they'll be all bhaktas . Prabhupāda: They do not know. Devotee: They think it is necessary to gratify the senses. Prabhupāda: They think that, that by gratifying senses . . . therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad. Brahmānanda: Chewing the chewed. *Prabhupāda: Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the Western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras , there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the Western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching, and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena . . . they examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing. *So therefore it is advised that tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . By itching, by satisfying the senses, itching sensation, their troubles and miserable condition increasing. That they do not know. Increasing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu means much; *duḥkha means miserable condition. Therefore one who is sensible: kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . The dhīra , one is sober, he understands, "What I am doing? I am simply trying to eat, and the disease is increasing. Therefore it must be stopped." This is called dhīra . That is called dhīra . That is, one word is used, dhīra , in Kumāra*-sambhava , that Pārvatī was induced. Lord Śiva was in meditation, and the necessity was that Kārttikeya . . . Kārttikeya means "With the semina of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī's," what is called, "semen, they mix together, the child will be born. He can kill these demons." Therefore Kārttik . . . so Lord Śiva was engaged in meditation. So Pārvatī was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Śiva. That's . . . therefore they introduced this, Śiva-liṅga is worshiped. Śiva-liṅga. So when was worshiping, a young girl touching the genital, but he was sitting without any disturbance. Therefore he has been described, dhīra. Dhīra . One who is not disturbed by the sex impulse, even in the presence of very beautiful young girl, he is called dhīra . *So kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . One has to become dhīra . That is wanted. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Twice he was induced by very beautiful young girl at dead of night. But he remained . . . "Yes, I'll satisfy you." He turned . . . that is called dhīra . There is another place. The dhīra word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That dhīra . Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Brahmānanda: Even by death he is not disturbed. *Prabhupāda: Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra . Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then . . . that is the prayojana*-siddhi , to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). Bhagavad-bhajan , devotional service of the Lord, means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya : going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). It is dangerous; it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam , to mix with the . . . or . . . mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām . To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra , he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra . Then we are fit candidates for going back to home, back to Godhead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra . Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana*-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahana . And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana; *He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana*-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī. *Brahmānanda: One is Madan*-madana? *Prabhupāda: One is Madana, and Kṛṣṇa enchants Madana. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful that Madana becomes enchanted by Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī is so beautiful that Kṛṣṇa becomes enchanted. That is spiritual sex. That is not so ordinary. Therefore the attraction of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir (CC Adi 1.5). This is the spiritual energy, display of spiritual energy. But the sahajiyās , they take as material attractions. As we are attracted, men and women, similarly, they take the Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa attraction is like that . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . the business of the representative of Kṛṣṇa to push the nipple. Because they know what is the necessity. The whole world is upset for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the necessity. It is not a, I mean to say, whimsical sporting. It is the necessity. But they do not know. It is a very responsible task. That is called prayojana . Is it clear? What do you think? Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, they . . . there has to be . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know. The scientists, they do not know what is the necessity. (laughs) Do they know? Do you think, all the scientists, do they know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they know, they'll be all bhaktas . Prabhupāda: They do not know. Devotee: They think it is necessary to gratify the senses. Prabhupāda: They think that, that by gratifying senses . . . therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad. Brahmānanda: Chewing the chewed. *Prabhupāda: Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the Western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras , there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the Western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching, and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena . . . they examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing. *So therefore it is advised that tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . By itching, by satisfying the senses, itching sensation, their troubles and miserable condition increasing. That they do not know. Increasing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu means much; *duḥkha means miserable condition. Therefore one who is sensible: kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . The dhīra , one is sober, he understands, "What I am doing? I am simply trying to eat, and the disease is increasing. Therefore it must be stopped." This is called dhīra . That is called dhīra . That is, one word is used, dhīra , in Kumāra*-sambhava , that Pārvatī was induced. Lord Śiva was in meditation, and the necessity was that Kārttikeya . . . Kārttikeya means "With the semina of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī's," what is called, "semen, they mix together, the child will be born. He can kill these demons." Therefore Kārttik . . . so Lord Śiva was engaged in meditation. So Pārvatī was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Śiva. That's . . . therefore they introduced this, Śiva-liṅga is worshiped. Śiva-liṅga. So when was worshiping, a young girl touching the genital, but he was sitting without any disturbance. Therefore he has been described, dhīra. Dhīra . One who is not disturbed by the sex impulse, even in the presence of very beautiful young girl, he is called dhīra . *So kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . One has to become dhīra . That is wanted. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Twice he was induced by very beautiful young girl at dead of night. But he remained . . . "Yes, I'll satisfy you." He turned . . . that is called dhīra . There is another place. The dhīra word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That dhīra . Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Brahmānanda: Even by death he is not disturbed. *Prabhupāda: Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra . Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then . . . that is the prayojana*-siddhi , to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). Bhagavad-bhajan , devotional service of the Lord, means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya : going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). It is dangerous; it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam , to mix with the . . . or . . . mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām . To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra , he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra . Then we are fit candidates for going back to home, back to Godhead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra . Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana*-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahana . And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana; *He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana*-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī. *Brahmānanda: One is Madan*-madana? *Prabhupāda: One is Madana, and Kṛṣṇa enchants Madana. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful that Madana becomes enchanted by Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī is so beautiful that Kṛṣṇa becomes enchanted. That is spiritual sex. That is not so ordinary. Therefore the attraction of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir (CC Adi 1.5). This is the spiritual energy, display of spiritual energy. But the sahajiyās , they take as material attractions. As we are attracted, men and women, similarly, they take the Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa attraction is like that . . . (break) (end) Prabhupāda: . . . within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet. Gurudāsa: Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā. Prabhupāda: Long, long ago? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And it was very nice? Gurudāsa: It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it. Prabhupāda: Hmm. In India, amongst the Brahmins , this self cooking is very much . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: I think it . . . (break) . . . prasādam in a very simple way. When you cook yourself, very simple. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (break) *Gurudāsa: . . . Rādhā*-Dāmodara, did you cook yourself? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurudāsa: Sarajini helped? Prabhupāda: Sarajini simply washed the dishes, cleansed the room, set out the bedding. I was cooking. Devotee (1): Soviet, Soviet land, I forget the exact title. And this one woman was a poet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): She was a poet. In one article in the magazine. And she was . . . stated in her magazine how much she was sorry about her youth. Prabhupāda: Youth. Devotee (1): Yeah, that she was living very poorly, and her father had to work all day very hard as a goldsmith or tinsmith. And how she remembers her mother, that she was kept in such poor conditions that all her life she was very miserable. And she said that she was thinking that her mother might have been a great poet or a great scientist, but because of being oppressed by the higher class of Russia, that she could not develop, she simply was forced to live a very poor life. So I was able to understand that actually they are thinking that being oppressed by the higher classes, the lower class cannot properly develop their qualities. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot . . . you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer. Best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son*-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that, "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit that, "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things . . . Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been . . . but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to . . . they write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. You see? This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām . You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām ? Devotee (1): "Without envy"? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is envious. Whole world. I am envious to you; you are envious of me. Then Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām ( SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa, and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it . . . it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take others' money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to . . . he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is animal, it was deluded that, "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." Even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also . . . how can you stop it? That will be not stopped'. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working. *This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful young woman, but you will be not . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam . Acireṇa dhīraḥ . *So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra . He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desire, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch . . . (indistinct) . . . never satisfied. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam , that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease, lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease. Similarly, these . . . all these living entities, they have succumbed—what is called, succumb?—by lusty desire. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be . . . then there is no more envious that, "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking, "I shall become minister"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become leader"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become millionaire"; and at last, "I shall become God." *So even the so*-called religionist, the heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī . Bhukti means ordinary karmīs , want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti , they also want, "I shall become God. I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." "One with God" means I'll become. Bhukti, mukti and siddhi . The yogīs , they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing . . . (indistinct) . . . Pagala Baba. He has some yogic siddhi , so he has some . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that, "If I pay him one lakh , I shall get two lakhs ." This is the propaganda. It is a . . . what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful, you will get four rupees. Siddhi . Because material world, they think, "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking—nation-wise, individual—how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished, accomplishment coming on one side, one side it is burst out into war. But you see, propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Devotee (2): They have a pyramid? Prabhupāda: Yes, they have brought. Devotee (1): It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt. Prabhupāda: And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In Rome, they are also maintaining such museum, and Paris I saw. This is their competition—wholesale plundering. Wholesale plundering. Devotee (1): They take it . . . (break) Prabhupāda: We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not a civilization. And *Mahābhārata* history also we find so many demons. Just like . . . what is called, that asura , he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses. Devotee (2): Bhaumāsura? Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They pray to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of . . . then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that, "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . this is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle . . . (indistinct) . . . the Musselman nawabs, they used to keep . . . that one nawab in . . . they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the . . . (indistinct) . . . and his wife. So he has got three wives—one Bengali wife, one U.P. wife, and his original wife being dead. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his. Devotee (2): (laughs) He cannot keep them satisfied. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? He's an old man, and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection—beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally. Devotee (1): They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class. Prabhupāda: That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy. Devotee (1): This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . grama*-kuli. Jala-batta . . . (indistinct) . . . he is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascals' poetry, just like in your country: one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside) You should not show your feet this is the etiquette. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu , "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody . . . therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated. Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave; artificially he thinks, "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam (BG 16.13). Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money . . . (indistinct) . . . lot of money, so who is better than me?" . . . (indistinct) . . . she has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road: the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal . . . (indistinct) . . . an apartment, very nice apartment . . . (indistinct) . . . it is . . . fact is there. Either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, then he will be accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness. Devotee (2): "Therefore let me eliminate you." Prabhupāda: Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsaratā. Yayā sammohito jīva . *Yayā sammohito jīva . Vyāsadeva, by bhakti*-yoga , he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā . . . Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva : that māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam (SB 1.7.5). And being captivated by this māyā , although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate . In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw. *So this is called anartha , a position which is false. So, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ . The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . Therefore Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje . These things are there in the Bhāgavata . Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing. *This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau , for the benefit of the whole world. We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī , they do for their own person. Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs , for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau . Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau . Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa , "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant." "I want to only eat the dust of the . . . (indistinct) . . . feet." Everything is there; *simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means life of realization, self*-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself . . . (indistinct) . . . "What I am?" (pause) (break) *But if you remain diseased, then . . . just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First*-class things are being made—nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease, is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom; *I shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . ." Similarly, the so*-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there, "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogīs , they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta' (CC Madhya 19.149). By kṛṣṇa-bhakti , you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ (SB 10.33.39). This is only . . . unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying, and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam . (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, this . . . (indistinct) . . . created . . . (indistinct) . . . little. And even he is thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām . Material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step . . . (end) Prabhupāda: . . . within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet. Gurudāsa: Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā. Prabhupāda: Long, long ago? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And it was very nice? Gurudāsa: It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it. Prabhupāda: Hmm. In India, amongst the Brahmins , this self cooking is very much . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: I think it . . . (break) . . . prasādam in a very simple way. When you cook yourself, very simple. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (break) *Gurudāsa: . . . Rādhā*-Dāmodara, did you cook yourself? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurudāsa: Sarajini helped? Prabhupāda: Sarajini simply washed the dishes, cleansed the room, set out the bedding. I was cooking. Devotee (1): Soviet, Soviet land, I forget the exact title. And this one woman was a poet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): She was a poet. In one article in the magazine. And she was . . . stated in her magazine how much she was sorry about her youth. Prabhupāda: Youth. Devotee (1): Yeah, that she was living very poorly, and her father had to work all day very hard as a goldsmith or tinsmith. And how she remembers her mother, that she was kept in such poor conditions that all her life she was very miserable. And she said that she was thinking that her mother might have been a great poet or a great scientist, but because of being oppressed by the higher class of Russia, that she could not develop, she simply was forced to live a very poor life. So I was able to understand that actually they are thinking that being oppressed by the higher classes, the lower class cannot properly develop their qualities. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot . . . you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer. Best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son*-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that, "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit that, "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things . . . Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been . . . but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to . . . they write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. You see? This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām . You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām ? Devotee (1): "Without envy"? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is envious. Whole world. I am envious to you; you are envious of me. Then Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām ( SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa, and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it . . . it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take others' money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to . . . he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is animal, it was deluded that, "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." Even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also . . . how can you stop it? That will be not stopped'. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working. *This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful young woman, but you will be not . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam . Acireṇa dhīraḥ . *So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra . He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desire, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch . . . (indistinct) . . . never satisfied. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam , that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease, lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease. Similarly, these . . . all these living entities, they have succumbed—what is called, succumb?—by lusty desire. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be . . . then there is no more envious that, "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking, "I shall become minister"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become leader"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become millionaire"; and at last, "I shall become God." *So even the so*-called religionist, the heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī . Bhukti means ordinary karmīs , want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti , they also want, "I shall become God. I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." "One with God" means I'll become. Bhukti, mukti and siddhi . The yogīs , they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing . . . (indistinct) . . . Pagala Baba. He has some yogic siddhi , so he has some . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that, "If I pay him one lakh , I shall get two lakhs ." This is the propaganda. It is a . . . what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful, you will get four rupees. Siddhi . Because material world, they think, "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking—nation-wise, individual—how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished, accomplishment coming on one side, one side it is burst out into war. But you see, propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Devotee (2): They have a pyramid? Prabhupāda: Yes, they have brought. Devotee (1): It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt. Prabhupāda: And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In Rome, they are also maintaining such museum, and Paris I saw. This is their competition—wholesale plundering. Wholesale plundering. Devotee (1): They take it . . . (break) Prabhupāda: We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not a civilization. And *Mahābhārata* history also we find so many demons. Just like . . . what is called, that asura , he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses. Devotee (2): Bhaumāsura? Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They pray to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of . . . then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that, "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . this is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle . . . (indistinct) . . . the Musselman nawabs, they used to keep . . . that one nawab in . . . they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the . . . (indistinct) . . . and his wife. So he has got three wives—one Bengali wife, one U.P. wife, and his original wife being dead. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his. Devotee (2): (laughs) He cannot keep them satisfied. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? He's an old man, and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection—beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally. Devotee (1): They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class. Prabhupāda: That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy. Devotee (1): This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . grama*-kuli. Jala-batta . . . (indistinct) . . . he is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascals' poetry, just like in your country: one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside) You should not show your feet this is the etiquette. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu , "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody . . . therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated. Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave; artificially he thinks, "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam (BG 16.13). Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money . . . (indistinct) . . . lot of money, so who is better than me?" . . . (indistinct) . . . she has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road: the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal . . . (indistinct) . . . an apartment, very nice apartment . . . (indistinct) . . . it is . . . fact is there. Either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, then he will be accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness. Devotee (2): "Therefore let me eliminate you." Prabhupāda: Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsaratā. Yayā sammohito jīva . *Yayā sammohito jīva . Vyāsadeva, by bhakti*-yoga , he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā . . . Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva : that māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam (SB 1.7.5). And being captivated by this māyā , although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate . In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw. *So this is called anartha , a position which is false. So, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ . The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . Therefore Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje . These things are there in the Bhāgavata . Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing. *This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau , for the benefit of the whole world. We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī , they do for their own person. Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs , for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau . Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau . Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa , "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant." "I want to only eat the dust of the . . . (indistinct) . . . feet." Everything is there; *simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means life of realization, self*-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself . . . (indistinct) . . . "What I am?" (pause) (break) *But if you remain diseased, then . . . just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First*-class things are being made—nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease, is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom; *I shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . ." Similarly, the so*-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there, "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogīs , they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta' (CC Madhya 19.149). By kṛṣṇa-bhakti , you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ (SB 10.33.39). This is only . . . unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying, and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam . (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, this . . . (indistinct) . . . created . . . (indistinct) . . . little. And even he is thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām . Material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step . . . (end) Prabhupāda: It will go on like that. In America, in Moscow, why you are envious of me? That disease is there. His enviousness is a different quality. Actually, comparing with America, the people are more happy in America, not in Russia. It's a fact. I have seen it. They are terrorized. No freedom. So everyone is terrorized. They must be. What is that? Is that life? I have to live under terrorism conditions. I must do it . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not life. Brahmānanda: Here comes Gurudāsa. (break) Gurudāsa: Morning, 11 September, 1974, Vṛndāvana. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that manager and assisting managers is not difficult, except that all the European and American boys didn't understand the concept of prabhu . We each call each other prabhu , but we are thinking that, "I am prabhu , and all others are servants," not that the one I am calling prabhu or the one who is calling me prabhu are mutual prabhus . (break) Brahmānanda: He's typing the tapes now. To type one tape takes him about eight hours. Prabhupāda: Eight hours? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: How is that? Brahmānanda: That is the usual time. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (1): It's not possible. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): It's not possible to take so long. Brahmānanda: But he puts the Bengali and the Sanskrit in. Devotee (1): They were telling me three to four hours. Brahmānanda: Who? (break) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavata is being accepted everywhere. Big, big libraries, universities. University, Bombay University. As far as possible . . . (indistinct) . . . all colleges. (break) There is no . . . (indistinct) . . . making word meaning, word-to-word meaning . . . (indistinct) . . . when there is word . . . (break) You should be clear of all questions possible. Then you will be able to push very forcibly. You must be prepared to answer all the questions. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda, one question: You say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all problems. But factually, there are so many problems in the world that aren't being solved. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Brahmānanda: So many problems in the world, and many say that they can solve all the problems. So what is the proof? Prabhupāda: They could not. The problems are there. Brahmānanda: Sometimes we are criticized. They say: "Oh, you say you can solve all problems. That is utopian. That is . . ." Prabhupāda: Not utopian. You do not know. Because just like when you are diseased, there is problem. So to solve that problem, where do you go? Hmm? Brahmānanda: To the doctor. Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent; *not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru . So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru ? He taught, He gave lesson to Brahmā, the original living being in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā . He gave lesson to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, . . . (indistinct) . . . he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme guru . To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble. You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru , instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru . That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet , vidhi-liṅ . In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhi-liṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. *So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru . Tene brahma ādi*-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi , the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not solved any question. Therefore required, they say, revolution. Problem is not solved. We are accepting one wrong process, and after going through it for some time, we want to change it. That is not solution. That means you do not know how to make it solved; *you're simply trying this method, that method, this method, that method. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not perfect. But because you cannot solve, therefore you say that a periodical revolution is required, because you have no solution. You do not know how to solve, but you accept some process for some time, and when you see it is useless, you make revolution, another . . . (indistinct) . . . imperfect. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). Practically we see that. There is sex. Material life means sex pleasure. You told me you were in Mexico, in the street they are having sex? Brahmānanda: Yes. Oh, meaning in public? Prabhupāda: Yes, you told me. What is that? Brahmānanda: They have it with . . . you mean with the asses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Public street. Because they do not know except sex, they think this kind of sex is very nice. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): chewing the chewed. Brahmānanda: They're not satisfied with sex with a man, so they have it with an ass. *Prabhupāda: (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Their center is sex—this sex or that sex or that sex, even ordinarily. In Paris, Paris you know, it is a city of prostitutes. On the roads there are prostitutes. Where we have got our temple, so many prostitutes are standing. And those who are prostitute*-hunters, they go to Paris. From our childhood I know about one family physician. We are at that time boy, eight or ten years old. He was talking with his another Muhammadan friend how he toured many countries and how many different types of prostitutes he taste. This was his talk. So he was talking of Paris, "Though you are boy . . ." This we could understand. This is the talk. Old men, retired men, they will also talk of sex . . . (indistinct) . . . and they will enjoy. Now they could not enjoy sex, but by talking . . . and we have practically seen when we were young, our grandmother-in-law, my father-in-law's mother, old lady, she would talk freely about sex. She will ask me, "You capture the breast of your wife." She would make a pun and enjoy. "You do like that, you do like that." She teaches like that. We were . . . I was twenty, twenty-three years, so I was just married, but she will enjoy sex. She had other grandchildren. My father-in-law were two brothers. So my father-in-law, he was younger brother, and his elder brother, her daughter was of the same age, she would enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . . grandson-in-law. There is a proverb . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Ministers, nine ministers. The minister, famous. Brahmānanda: Birbal. Prabhupāda: Birbal. So Akbar Vasar asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day, all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar Vasar's house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar Vasar's daughter, king's daughter, very . . . (indistinct) . . . so the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar Vasar. He was looking over that young girl. Both of them are intelligent. Then Akbar Vasar said, "Yes. You are right" *And our śāstra says, yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi . There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi . What is the standard of happiness? Maithuna , sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi . All these gṛhasthas , you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life. They are busy. Especially in India you will find, they spend thousands lakhs of rupees for son's and daughter's and grandson's sex life. Is it not? That is their happiness. "I am enjoying sex life." Just like my grandmother*-in-law. She is concentrating on sex life. So she was old; *she had no opportunity. Let grandson*-in-law, granddaughter. One who is impotent, he wants to see others enjoying sex life. You know this? He enjoys. He cannot do it. There are many person, he is impotent, so he brings another man to his wife, then he watches. You know this? This is going on. Sex. They will see the dog's sex life, very . . . (indistinct) . . . how he is enjoying. Cow's sex life. Dog is having sex, and there will be a crowd. *This is the basic principle of material life: sex. In this way, prostitution, this way, that way, that way, that way. This is the only point. There is no other aim. Yan maithunadi*-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). And this kind of happiness is most abominable. Most abominable. But that is the center of happiness. Is it not? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham . Most abominable part of the body for passing urine, obnoxious smell, but that is the point of life. How much degraded this material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ . The śāstra has picked up most abominable thing: that is the point of pleasure. Yan maithunādi. Maithunādi , either he himself, or for his son, for his grandson, for his great-grandson, the family. Very aristocratic. *So if we study analytically, we can understand that how much we are in illusion. This most abominable thing, we are taking it is the center of happiness. (break) Therefore, Vaiṣṇava . . . (indistinct) . . . māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, they are enjoying a certain type of most abominable happiness. Tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha . So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me, I have no problem. All problems solved." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyām tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ . "I am not afraid of this material world, because I have learned how to enjoy life simply by thinking of Your pastimes. But I am unhappy." Soce. Soce means unhappy. Why? Tato vimukha-cetasa . "These rascals who have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have made huge arrangement simply for sex." Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān . "I am thinking of these rascals, how they can be delivered from this fallen condition." So the Vaiṣṇava has no problem; *he has got Kṛṣṇa. But he wants to preach to save these rascals. This is Vaiṣṇava's duty. But if he is fallen himself, how he can save others? That is not possible. Then it will be andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is leading others. What is that? They will all fall into ditch. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, bharata*-bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari' (CC Adi 9.41): "First of all you be perfect, because you have got opportunity, and then do para-upakāra . Then go to other country and deliver them." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Not that you remain blind and go there. Just like all these rascal svāmīs and yogīs , they are blind. They do not know what is spiritual life. Andhā yathāndhair . They are blind, and their talks are simply big, big talks . . . (indistinct) . . . here also, this Rakhanananda, he is speaking on Bhāgavata . He is a rascal, blind; he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He is misleading others. You have seen in Bombay that Sadajivatlal brought some pictures? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mīrābhāi is becoming mixed up with Kṛṣṇa. Have seen it? Brahmānanda: Yes, that was the final point. She worshiped Kṛṣṇa throughout her whole life so at the end she could become one with Him. Prabhupāda: This is going on, the Māyāvādī rascals. But they do not refer where Kṛṣṇa says that, "You become My devotee, then you become pushed . . . (indistinct) . . ." Brahmānanda: They showed the two bodies coming together. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: I think the picture of the two bodies . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You and Me and all these soldiers, we existed before, we are existing now, and we shall exist in this way in future." Where does He say that, "We shall be mixed up"? Never says. And these rascals, they have got so many parties, the same thing. Where do you get this idea? There is sayujya*-mukti , but Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You take it." All this Ramakrishna Mission, all these, this . . . (indistinct) . . . he gives the example that rivers come from different sources, but when it comes to the ocean it is mixed up. Why don't you see within the water? Within the water there are big, big fishes, they do not mix up with the water. They see superficially the water. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Our philosophy is, "Come. Come here, play with Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy. Come here, dance with Kṛṣṇa as gopī . Come here, accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, Kṛṣṇa will accept you as your (His) mother." There will be always two, and enjoy, any way. Even as enemy, demon displaying part of enemy, Kṛṣṇa killing, that is also pastime too. That is also enjoyment. Just like sometimes we fight, friend to friend, to enjoy life, because fighting is enjoyment. To become enemy of Kṛṣṇa purposefully, and to fight with Him, that is giving pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying, and He also becomes so staunch enemy. So this is also transcendental pleasure. Just like Bhīṣma. He is piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa, and He is coming with cakra . That is a pleasure. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying being pierced by His devotee. And devotee is enjoying, "Now Kṛṣṇa is coming to kill me." *So any way you can deal with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy transcendental pleasure, either as enemy or as friend or as son or as lover, as master, as a servant—any way. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to deal with you any way, in twelve rasas, akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Raso vai saḥ , in the Vedas , He is the reservoir of all pleasure, transcendental. Labdha-nandini . When we exchange rasa , transcendental mellow, labdha-nandini , then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered round the sex, this way, that way, similarly the transcendentalist, they are . . . their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen? Brahmānanda: Yes, in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The center is sex. The birds. Brahmānanda: The birds also. Prabhupāda: Everyone. *Yāmunācārya. He was a great king. So his . . . as king, his life was sex. But then he became a devotee, he admits, yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde : "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne , "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ , "I taste that . . . (indistinct) . . ." suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ , (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting sound)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins. This is the proof, Yāmunācārya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne . So not actually doing; *simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting sound) What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata , hear Bhāgavata, rasa*-līlā . They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā , then that lusty desires will be finished. *That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source . . . (indistinct) . . . then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd*-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ . Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same things. They publish book. One rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has published. In Paris we saw. Devotee (2): The Myth of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nation. Gurudāsa: The United Nations is also encouraging sex. *Prabhupāda: They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered round that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is there. They do not know anything else. Brahmānanda: That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the Freud philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam . Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Ṭhākura took his compassion: "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she become purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end) Prabhupāda: It will go on like that. In America, in Moscow, why you are envious of me? That disease is there. His enviousness is a different quality. Actually, comparing with America, the people are more happy in America, not in Russia. It's a fact. I have seen it. They are terrorized. No freedom. So everyone is terrorized. They must be. What is that? Is that life? I have to live under terrorism conditions. I must do it . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not life. Brahmānanda: Here comes Gurudāsa. (break) Gurudāsa: Morning, 11 September, 1974, Vṛndāvana. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that manager and assisting managers is not difficult, except that all the European and American boys didn't understand the concept of prabhu . We each call each other prabhu , but we are thinking that, "I am prabhu , and all others are servants," not that the one I am calling prabhu or the one who is calling me prabhu are mutual prabhus . (break) Brahmānanda: He's typing the tapes now. To type one tape takes him about eight hours. Prabhupāda: Eight hours? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: How is that? Brahmānanda: That is the usual time. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (1): It's not possible. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): It's not possible to take so long. Brahmānanda: But he puts the Bengali and the Sanskrit in. Devotee (1): They were telling me three to four hours. Brahmānanda: Who? (break) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavata is being accepted everywhere. Big, big libraries, universities. University, Bombay University. As far as possible . . . (indistinct) . . . all colleges. (break) There is no . . . (indistinct) . . . making word meaning, word-to-word meaning . . . (indistinct) . . . when there is word . . . (break) You should be clear of all questions possible. Then you will be able to push very forcibly. You must be prepared to answer all the questions. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda, one question: You say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all problems. But factually, there are so many problems in the world that aren't being solved. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Brahmānanda: So many problems in the world, and many say that they can solve all the problems. So what is the proof? Prabhupāda: They could not. The problems are there. Brahmānanda: Sometimes we are criticized. They say: "Oh, you say you can solve all problems. That is utopian. That is . . ." Prabhupāda: Not utopian. You do not know. Because just like when you are diseased, there is problem. So to solve that problem, where do you go? Hmm? Brahmānanda: To the doctor. Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent; *not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru . So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru ? He taught, He gave lesson to Brahmā, the original living being in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā . He gave lesson to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, . . . (indistinct) . . . he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme guru . To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble. You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru , instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru . That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet , vidhi-liṅ . In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhi-liṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. *So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru . Tene brahma ādi*-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi , the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not solved any question. Therefore required, they say, revolution. Problem is not solved. We are accepting one wrong process, and after going through it for some time, we want to change it. That is not solution. That means you do not know how to make it solved; *you're simply trying this method, that method, this method, that method. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not perfect. But because you cannot solve, therefore you say that a periodical revolution is required, because you have no solution. You do not know how to solve, but you accept some process for some time, and when you see it is useless, you make revolution, another . . . (indistinct) . . . imperfect. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). Practically we see that. There is sex. Material life means sex pleasure. You told me you were in Mexico, in the street they are having sex? Brahmānanda: Yes. Oh, meaning in public? Prabhupāda: Yes, you told me. What is that? Brahmānanda: They have it with . . . you mean with the asses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Public street. Because they do not know except sex, they think this kind of sex is very nice. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): chewing the chewed. Brahmānanda: They're not satisfied with sex with a man, so they have it with an ass. *Prabhupāda: (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Their center is sex—this sex or that sex or that sex, even ordinarily. In Paris, Paris you know, it is a city of prostitutes. On the roads there are prostitutes. Where we have got our temple, so many prostitutes are standing. And those who are prostitute*-hunters, they go to Paris. From our childhood I know about one family physician. We are at that time boy, eight or ten years old. He was talking with his another Muhammadan friend how he toured many countries and how many different types of prostitutes he taste. This was his talk. So he was talking of Paris, "Though you are boy . . ." This we could understand. This is the talk. Old men, retired men, they will also talk of sex . . . (indistinct) . . . and they will enjoy. Now they could not enjoy sex, but by talking . . . and we have practically seen when we were young, our grandmother-in-law, my father-in-law's mother, old lady, she would talk freely about sex. She will ask me, "You capture the breast of your wife." She would make a pun and enjoy. "You do like that, you do like that." She teaches like that. We were . . . I was twenty, twenty-three years, so I was just married, but she will enjoy sex. She had other grandchildren. My father-in-law were two brothers. So my father-in-law, he was younger brother, and his elder brother, her daughter was of the same age, she would enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . . grandson-in-law. There is a proverb . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Ministers, nine ministers. The minister, famous. Brahmānanda: Birbal. Prabhupāda: Birbal. So Akbar Vasar asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day, all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar Vasar's house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar Vasar's daughter, king's daughter, very . . . (indistinct) . . . so the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar Vasar. He was looking over that young girl. Both of them are intelligent. Then Akbar Vasar said, "Yes. You are right" *And our śāstra says, yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi . There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi . What is the standard of happiness? Maithuna , sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi . All these gṛhasthas , you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life. They are busy. Especially in India you will find, they spend thousands lakhs of rupees for son's and daughter's and grandson's sex life. Is it not? That is their happiness. "I am enjoying sex life." Just like my grandmother*-in-law. She is concentrating on sex life. So she was old; *she had no opportunity. Let grandson*-in-law, granddaughter. One who is impotent, he wants to see others enjoying sex life. You know this? He enjoys. He cannot do it. There are many person, he is impotent, so he brings another man to his wife, then he watches. You know this? This is going on. Sex. They will see the dog's sex life, very . . . (indistinct) . . . how he is enjoying. Cow's sex life. Dog is having sex, and there will be a crowd. *This is the basic principle of material life: sex. In this way, prostitution, this way, that way, that way, that way. This is the only point. There is no other aim. Yan maithunadi*-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). And this kind of happiness is most abominable. Most abominable. But that is the center of happiness. Is it not? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham . Most abominable part of the body for passing urine, obnoxious smell, but that is the point of life. How much degraded this material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ . The śāstra has picked up most abominable thing: that is the point of pleasure. Yan maithunādi. Maithunādi , either he himself, or for his son, for his grandson, for his great-grandson, the family. Very aristocratic. *So if we study analytically, we can understand that how much we are in illusion. This most abominable thing, we are taking it is the center of happiness. (break) Therefore, Vaiṣṇava . . . (indistinct) . . . māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, they are enjoying a certain type of most abominable happiness. Tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha . So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me, I have no problem. All problems solved." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyām tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ . "I am not afraid of this material world, because I have learned how to enjoy life simply by thinking of Your pastimes. But I am unhappy." Soce. Soce means unhappy. Why? Tato vimukha-cetasa . "These rascals who have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have made huge arrangement simply for sex." Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān . "I am thinking of these rascals, how they can be delivered from this fallen condition." So the Vaiṣṇava has no problem; *he has got Kṛṣṇa. But he wants to preach to save these rascals. This is Vaiṣṇava's duty. But if he is fallen himself, how he can save others? That is not possible. Then it will be andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is leading others. What is that? They will all fall into ditch. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, bharata*-bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari' (CC Adi 9.41): "First of all you be perfect, because you have got opportunity, and then do para-upakāra . Then go to other country and deliver them." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Not that you remain blind and go there. Just like all these rascal svāmīs and yogīs , they are blind. They do not know what is spiritual life. Andhā yathāndhair . They are blind, and their talks are simply big, big talks . . . (indistinct) . . . here also, this Rakhanananda, he is speaking on Bhāgavata . He is a rascal, blind; he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He is misleading others. You have seen in Bombay that Sadajivatlal brought some pictures? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mīrābhāi is becoming mixed up with Kṛṣṇa. Have seen it? Brahmānanda: Yes, that was the final point. She worshiped Kṛṣṇa throughout her whole life so at the end she could become one with Him. Prabhupāda: This is going on, the Māyāvādī rascals. But they do not refer where Kṛṣṇa says that, "You become My devotee, then you become pushed . . . (indistinct) . . ." Brahmānanda: They showed the two bodies coming together. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: I think the picture of the two bodies . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You and Me and all these soldiers, we existed before, we are existing now, and we shall exist in this way in future." Where does He say that, "We shall be mixed up"? Never says. And these rascals, they have got so many parties, the same thing. Where do you get this idea? There is sayujya*-mukti , but Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You take it." All this Ramakrishna Mission, all these, this . . . (indistinct) . . . he gives the example that rivers come from different sources, but when it comes to the ocean it is mixed up. Why don't you see within the water? Within the water there are big, big fishes, they do not mix up with the water. They see superficially the water. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Our philosophy is, "Come. Come here, play with Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy. Come here, dance with Kṛṣṇa as gopī . Come here, accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, Kṛṣṇa will accept you as your (His) mother." There will be always two, and enjoy, any way. Even as enemy, demon displaying part of enemy, Kṛṣṇa killing, that is also pastime too. That is also enjoyment. Just like sometimes we fight, friend to friend, to enjoy life, because fighting is enjoyment. To become enemy of Kṛṣṇa purposefully, and to fight with Him, that is giving pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying, and He also becomes so staunch enemy. So this is also transcendental pleasure. Just like Bhīṣma. He is piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa, and He is coming with cakra . That is a pleasure. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying being pierced by His devotee. And devotee is enjoying, "Now Kṛṣṇa is coming to kill me." *So any way you can deal with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy transcendental pleasure, either as enemy or as friend or as son or as lover, as master, as a servant—any way. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to deal with you any way, in twelve rasas, akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Raso vai saḥ , in the Vedas , He is the reservoir of all pleasure, transcendental. Labdha-nandini . When we exchange rasa , transcendental mellow, labdha-nandini , then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered round the sex, this way, that way, similarly the transcendentalist, they are . . . their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen? Brahmānanda: Yes, in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The center is sex. The birds. Brahmānanda: The birds also. Prabhupāda: Everyone. *Yāmunācārya. He was a great king. So his . . . as king, his life was sex. But then he became a devotee, he admits, yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde : "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne , "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ , "I taste that . . . (indistinct) . . ." suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ , (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting sound)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins. This is the proof, Yāmunācārya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne . So not actually doing; *simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting sound) What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata , hear Bhāgavata, rasa*-līlā . They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā , then that lusty desires will be finished. *That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source . . . (indistinct) . . . then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd*-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ . Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same things. They publish book. One rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has published. In Paris we saw. Devotee (2): The Myth of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nation. Gurudāsa: The United Nations is also encouraging sex. *Prabhupāda: They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered round that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is there. They do not know anything else. Brahmānanda: That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the Freud philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam . Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Ṭhākura took his compassion: "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she become purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end) Arrival -- January 29, 1974, Tokyo The government export, then import . . . karne to deta nahi (. . . is not allowed.) Kidhar? (Where?) India me. (To India.) Nahi, India me nahi. Europe me. (No, not to India. They give permission for Europe.) Ācchā. (Okay.) Europe. Middle East. Yaha se purchase karte hai . . . Europe me apka office hai. (After purchasing from here . . . do you have an office in Europe?) Nahi. Client hai. (No. I have clients over there.) Oh. (pause) Next have sankirtan . *Have kīrtana . ( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) (Japanese translation throughout) The child is responsive. The child is responsive. Yes. (laughs) He was seeing this playing of mṛdaṅga . How old? He's five months, Prabhupāda. Five months. So these Japanese boys, they cannot understand English? *No, but if you would like to say something, either Mahā*-guṇa or Vana can translate. They would like to hear you speak. *(devotee translating into Japanese throughout) When I was coming to this temple, I saw Japanese people are very industrious. Industrialism means, karma , and karma means, to work hard for the comfort of this body, but we are not this body, we are spirit soul within this body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). The real owner of the body is within this. So, so long our mind will be absorbed in the bodily concept of life, we have to accept another body after death. And to accept another body means great trouble. Just like this child, when he was within the womb of the mother for ten months, packed up . . . of course, by nature's arrangement one can live, but actually it is very troublesome. Then after coming out of the body, the child is helpless. He cannot express these troubles—sometimes cry. If mother is careful, takes care—otherwise he is in great trouble. Suppose some ant is biting, he cannot express; he cries simply, and mother also cannot detect why the child is crying. This is position. In this way, again growing up, no child wants to go to the school—he is forced to go to the school. Then when he is grown up, again family man to take responsibility of family. So the whole life is struggle for existence, then old age, so many disease, frustration, then again death. Again death means, again enter into the mother's womb, again packed up, again come out, and that is also not sure what kind of body he is going to get next. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies, and we can get any one of them. So this change of body is not very good job, but people do not know the science. They are ignorant of this transmigration of the soul, and they are working hard, dying, again taking birth—not as human being; maybe human being or more than human being, or cats and dogs, trees, there's so many. So this is our real problem. In ignorance, we accept one kind of body and stay for some time, again we are kicked out—no permanent situation. In this way, we are under threefold miserable conditions offered by the material nature. *So, people are not concerned about the solution of this problem, they are so foolish rascal. There is no education, there is no enlightenment about this transmigration of the soul from one body to another, and suffering, and they are thinking they are very happy. But from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand we can get relief from this repetition of birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): anyone who can understand Kṛṣṇa, the result will be na iti , "No more taking birth in the material world" mām eti , "He comes back to Me." So this is the solution. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people, how to make a solution of this repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. So why people are reluctant to take this movement very seriously? Any question? Hmm. You don't want to make a solution of this problem? Yes, they are . . . have become so dull, just like animals, they do not know what is the solution of the problem . . . (indistinct) *If a person, human being, does not take very seriously this problems of life, he is just like animal, go*-kharaḥ . Go means "cow," and kharaḥ means "ass." So those who are not interested, to make a solution of the problems of life, he is no better than an animal, go-kharaḥ . So this is a civilization of animal education—whole day working like ass. Ass is called mūḍhā . Mūḍhā , he works very hard, a big load of washerman's cloth is laden on his back, and he works, and the washerman gives little grass. He thinks, "He is giving me grass, therefore I must bear this load." He is such a fool that he does not know the grass is available anywhere, free of charges, but he thinks that, "This washerman is giving me grass," therefore he must have this load. Therefore ass is the most foolish animal. Amongst the animals, the most foolish animal. So we are trying to enlighten people to get them out from this foolish way of life. But, it is very difficult. Māyā is very strong. But still we have to try, because Kṛṣṇa Himself comes to enlighten people on this point, and we are supposed to be servant of Kṛṣṇa, so it is our duty to try to enlighten people. But people also should know the responsibility of human life, but they want to live like animals. So you want to live like this, or wish to go back to home, back to Godhead? Like animal, ass. (laughs) Boliye apka kya ray hai? Ap to Bharatiya hai. Ap ko to Bharatiya . . . Vedic knowledge to thoda malum hona chahiye. Ye jitne sab hai, wo itna parishram karte hai. To shastra kehte hai, ye sab gadhe hai. Aur hai bhi gadhe. Gadha ke jaisa parishram karte hai aur thoda do roti ke liye. Khane ke liye kutta bhedi ko bhi milta hai aur wo bhi wahi khate hai. Baki itna parishram karte hai aur apna jo manushya jivan ka jo kaam hai, wo kuch nahi hota. (So, what is your opinion? You are an Indian, you should have some knowledge of the *Vedas* . All these people work so hard. As per the scriptures, these people are like asses. And that is quite true. They work hard like donkeys for two pieces of bread which can be obtained so easily even by dogs and sheep. They toil so much that the real business of human life remains neglected forever.) So the Japanese boys, they have understood? Eh? You have understood? The difficulty is they cannot speak English, I cannot speak Japanese. (laughs) The difficulty is there. Anyway, you are supplying them prasādam . Go on doing that one day, they will also come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ap log roj aate hai, nahi? (Do all of you come everyday or not?) Sunday. Sunday. Today is . . .? Today is Tuesday. Tuesday. Apka kya bal baccha hai? Bal bacche . . . (Do you have any children? Children . . .) Bal bacche nahi . . . (I don't have children . . .) *Nahi. Apka patni, bhabhi? (None. Is she your wife or sister*-in-law?) Mere bhai ki . . . (My brother's . . .) India se aye hai? Kaha? (Has she come from India? Where?) Nahi. Osaka me rehte hai. (No. I'm staying in Osaka.) Osaka. Osaka is another city. Osaka. Oh. Osaka. Ap log Punjabi ho? (Do you belong to the Punjabi community?) Nahi. Bhatia hai. (No. We are Bhatia.) Bhatia? Gujarati? Karachi. Karachi. Karachi. Sindhi Bhatia. Sindhi? Abhi to hum Bombay me rehte hai. (Currently we are staying in Bombay.) Bombay me Sindhi bahut hai. (There are many Sindhis in Bombay.) Ji. Humare Bhatia sab . . . Sripad Vallabhacharya hai na, unke marg ke hai. (Oh yes. All our Bhatia . . . you know Sripad Vallabhacharya, we are from that path.) Achha! Tab to ap log Vaishnav ho. (Great. Then you people are Vaiṣṇavas.) Ji. Krishna ke hi puja me hai. (Yes. We are Vaiṣṇavas. We worship Lord Kṛṣṇa only.) Hmm. Tabhi to aate hai na. (That is the reason why you come here.) Shrinathji jate hai. (We go to Srinathji as well.) Achha. Srinath Gopal ji jo hai wo hum log ka, Gaudiya Vaishnav. Wo Madhavendra Puri . . . wo apka ye jo Vallabhacharya, wo Vishnu Swami sampradaya. Vaishnav log char sampradaya hai. Hum log hai Madhva sampradaya. Wo Madhavendra Puri ko de diya. Wo Gopal ji humara sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya. (Okay. Srinath Gopal Ji belongs to our lineage, Gaudiya Vaiṣṇava. It was Madhavendra Puri . . . Vallabhacharya , from the disciplic succession of Visnu Swami. Vaishnavas have four disciplic lineages or sampradayas . Our's is Madhva sampradaya. Madhavendra Puri gave it to him. So Gopal Ji was from our sampradaya , Gaudiya sampradaya .) *Chote Gopal ji, Srinath ji ke paas me. (The small Gopal Ji who is kept near Srinath*-ji.) Hmm. Nahi, wo Nathdwara, wo to bada Gopal. (No, the big Gopal Ji in Nathdwara.) Nahi. Chote. Srimad Vallabhacharya jinki puja karte the na. (No. The small one whom Srimad Vallabhacharya used to worship.) Oh! Wo wala. (That one.) Unka chota Gopal tha. (He had a small Deity of Gopal.) Wo wala. (That one. Bal Gopal.) Ji. (Yes.) Aur ye Nathdwara me jo Gopal ji hai, wo to bada Gopal hai. (And the Gopal Ji in Nathdwara is the bigger one.) Ji. (Yes, yes.) Wo Gopal ji Bhagavan Krishna ka jo pota, Bajra . . . unki pratisthit. Phir kuch kuch din baad, kuch gadbad hua to mandir tut gaya tha, Gopal ji jangal me kahi. Phir sapna dete hai, Madhavendra Puri se phir uthaya aur mandir sthapan kiya Govardhan me. Aur unke antim kal me ye Vallabhacharya ko de diya. Wahi Nathdwara. (The Gopal Ji of Nathdwara was installed by Vajranabh, the grandson of Lord Krsna. A few days later, there was some trouble and the temple was destroyed. Gopal Ji was lying in a jungle. Madhavendra Puri, after having a dream, again rescued Gopal from there and installed Him in a temple at Govardhan. And in the final days of his life he had given it to Vallabhacharya. That is Nathdwara.) Hmm. Ap log kitne hai sab Bharatiya idhar? (How many Indians are here all together?) Japan me? Karib teen char hazar. (In Japan? Around three to four thousand.) Char hazar. Kaise idhar to koi Bhagavan ka mandir hai hi nahi. (Four thousand? But there is no temple of the Lord anywhere.) Tokyo me nahi hai lekin Osaka, Kobe me hai. (There is no temple in Tokyo but in Kobe and Osaka, temples are there.) Kobe me hai? (Is there a temple in Kobe?) Kobe me hai. Gurudwara hai aur Ramakrishna mission ka bhi . . . (Yes, a temple is there in Kobe. Gurudwara is there and Ramkrishna mission also . . .) Huh? Ramkrishna mission. Ramakrishna mission kya hai? (laughter) Nastik hai. (It does not matter much, Ramkrishna mission (laughter). They are atheists.) Bas wahi do hai. (Only those two are there.) Wo to Hindu hi hai nahi. Ye log to Hindu hi hai nahi, Vaishnav to . . . Hindu ka baat nahi hai. Wo Krishna bhakt nahi hai. Idhar ek Krishna Bhagavan ka mandir banao. (These people are not even Hindus, forget about being a Vaiṣṇava. It is not a question of being Hindu. They are not devotees of Lord Krsna. So, build a temple here for the Supreme Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa.) Wo to Devi ke upasaka hai, Ramakrishna mission. (They are worshippers of the Goddess, the Ramkrishna mission.) *Devi ke ho, Devata ho, jo bhi ho, Bhagavan ka hona chahiye. (You may be followers of different demigods and demi*-goddesses but we should be followers of the Supreme Lord.) Ji ha. (Yes.) *Ramakrishna Mission na Devi ka, na Deva ka, wo apna pet ka hai bas. Sab kuch khate hai, sab kuch pite hai. (Ramakrishna Mission people are neither followers of any demigod or demi*-goddess, they are followers of their stomach. They eat everything, drink everything.) Ji. (Yes.) Ye Hindu dharma ka nash kar rahe hai. (They are destroying the Hindu religion.) Hmm. Ap log idhar sab vaishnav banaiye. (You make everyone into a Vaiṣṇava here.) Hum bhi to vaishnav hai. (We all are Vaiṣṇavas.) Ha. Ye log janam se sab mamsa khane wala hai. (Yes. These people were meat eaters by birth.) Ji. (Yes Sir.) Lekin sab chodh diya. Janam se. Sharab chodh diya, nasha bhang chodh diya, cha bhi nahi pite. Hum log bidi, cigarette, chay kuch nahi. Ap to jante hai. Sab jante hai, sari duniya. Aur wo sab khate hai, mamsa, machli, chay, bidi, sharab aur sab bhi, wo kehne ko nahi kuch, sab kuch. Bada jabardast Ramakrishna mission chalate hai. Kya ap log nahi jante? (But now they have given up completely. Since their birth . . . they have left drinking alcohol, any type of intoxicants and even tea. We don't take tobacco, cigarettes, tea . . . nothing. You know this. Everyone knows this all over the world. But they consume everything - meat, fish, tea, tobacco, alcohol and what not. Not even mentionable, everything. What great work they are doing, this Ramakrishna Mission! Didn't you know about this?) Jante hai. (We knew.) Jante hai. (We knew.) Sab koi jante hai. So . . . (Everyone knows this. So . . .) Lekin kya ye bachpan se wo log aisa life ji rahe hai . . . (But the thing is since childhood they are following such a lifestyle so . . .) Kya life me hai, mamsa machli khate hai, kya life? (laughter) Mussulman ka life. Mamsa machli khane wala uska kya life hai. (What lifestyle is this, eating meat and fish, what type of life is this? (laughter) The life of muslims. What life can a person have who eats meat and fish?) Kadaryo bhakhhon kore. (One eats so many dirty things.) A bengali poet . . . nana yoni bhraman kare, Kadaryo bhakhhan kare. Ye mamsa machli khane se kadaryo chiz hai . . . ye log khate nahi. Pashu ka hai to. Ye admi ka nahi. Isko humare shastra me yavana kehte hai. Rakshas kehte hai. Mamsa machli . . . mamsa kaun khata hai, wo kutta khata hai, sher, tiger . . . ye sab jungli log khate hai. Usse kya fayda milega. Tiger ka sharir bada mazboot hota hai. Usse manushya samaj ko kya fayda hoga. Aur ye jo gai hai, wo to mamsa machli nahi khati, uska dudh bina kaam hi nahi chalega. Usko to kat daal te hai. Kya kiya jaye? (One wanders through all the species and eats abominable things. This eating of meat and fish is kadaryo , a dirty thing. Humans do not eat such things. It is for animals, not for human beings. Such people are called yavanas in our scriptures. They are termed as rakshasas . Meat and fish . . . who eats meat? The dogs, lions, tigers . . . all uncivilized men eat such things. What benefit will they get? The tiger's body is very strong. But what benefit can human society have from that? And you see the cow is there, she doesn't eat fish or meat but without her milk, we cannot continue. Now, they are slaughtering her. What can be done?) Humare jo vaishnav sampradaya ke hai, to abhi abhi jo bhi bahar gaye, sab ne khana shuru kar diya. (In our Vaiṣṇava sampradaya at present, those who are living outside, they have all started eating meat.) To ho gaya. Jahannum me jayega, aur kya? (laughter) Jahannum me gaya, aur kya? Vaishnav kya . . . sabhi hum London me dekha, jitna Bharatiya hai sab mamsa khate hai. Aur go mamsa bhi khate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ye uchit nahi hai. Bhagavan ka prasad . . . idhar ap log prasad khate hai kya? (Then it's over. They will go to hell, what to do. (laughter) They are destined to go to hell. And all the Vaiṣṇavas . . . I have seen in London, all the Indians have started eating meat. They are even eating beef . . . (indistinct) . . . this should not have been done. Prasadam of the Lord . . . do you take prasadam here?) Ha, ha. Hum kuch bhi nahi khate. Pyaz, lehsun, kuch nahi. (Yes, yes. We don't take anything, no onion, no garlic . . . nothing.) Thik. (That's right.) Anda bhi nahi. Kuch nahi. Pyaz bhi nahi khate. Humare ghar ke mard pite bhi nahi hai wo to . . . cigarette wagera (laughter) . . . (We don't eat eggs either. Nothing, not even onions. The men in our family don't even smoke cigarettes etc. (laughter) . . .) So have kīrtana once more. Ap kitne din yaha rahenge? (How many days will you be staying here?) Kal chale jayenge. (I will go tomorrow.) Kal jayenge . . . (Oh you will go tomorrow . . .) *( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) Bahut bhagyavan baccha hai ye. (This child is very fortunate.) Ha. Kaise . . . (Yes. How he was . . .) Shuru se nachna . . . (He began dancing from the very beginning . . .) . . . nachna shuru karta hai (. . . began to dance.) (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) So there is prasādam for everyone. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Arrival -- January 29, 1974, Tokyo The government export, then import . . . karne to deta nahi (. . . is not allowed.) Kidhar? (Where?) India me. (To India.) Nahi, India me nahi. Europe me. (No, not to India. They give permission for Europe.) Ācchā. (Okay.) Europe. Middle East. Yaha se purchase karte hai . . . Europe me apka office hai. (After purchasing from here . . . do you have an office in Europe?) Nahi. Client hai. (No. I have clients over there.) Oh. (pause) Next have sankirtan . *Have kīrtana . ( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) (Japanese translation throughout) The child is responsive. The child is responsive. Yes. (laughs) He was seeing this playing of mṛdaṅga . How old? He's five months, Prabhupāda. Five months. So these Japanese boys, they cannot understand English? *No, but if you would like to say something, either Mahā*-guṇa or Vana can translate. They would like to hear you speak. *(devotee translating into Japanese throughout) When I was coming to this temple, I saw Japanese people are very industrious. Industrialism means, karma , and karma means, to work hard for the comfort of this body, but we are not this body, we are spirit soul within this body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). The real owner of the body is within this. So, so long our mind will be absorbed in the bodily concept of life, we have to accept another body after death. And to accept another body means great trouble. Just like this child, when he was within the womb of the mother for ten months, packed up . . . of course, by nature's arrangement one can live, but actually it is very troublesome. Then after coming out of the body, the child is helpless. He cannot express these troubles—sometimes cry. If mother is careful, takes care—otherwise he is in great trouble. Suppose some ant is biting, he cannot express; he cries simply, and mother also cannot detect why the child is crying. This is position. In this way, again growing up, no child wants to go to the school—he is forced to go to the school. Then when he is grown up, again family man to take responsibility of family. So the whole life is struggle for existence, then old age, so many disease, frustration, then again death. Again death means, again enter into the mother's womb, again packed up, again come out, and that is also not sure what kind of body he is going to get next. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies, and we can get any one of them. So this change of body is not very good job, but people do not know the science. They are ignorant of this transmigration of the soul, and they are working hard, dying, again taking birth—not as human being; maybe human being or more than human being, or cats and dogs, trees, there's so many. So this is our real problem. In ignorance, we accept one kind of body and stay for some time, again we are kicked out—no permanent situation. In this way, we are under threefold miserable conditions offered by the material nature. *So, people are not concerned about the solution of this problem, they are so foolish rascal. There is no education, there is no enlightenment about this transmigration of the soul from one body to another, and suffering, and they are thinking they are very happy. But from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand we can get relief from this repetition of birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): anyone who can understand Kṛṣṇa, the result will be na iti , "No more taking birth in the material world" mām eti , "He comes back to Me." So this is the solution. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people, how to make a solution of this repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. So why people are reluctant to take this movement very seriously? Any question? Hmm. You don't want to make a solution of this problem? Yes, they are . . . have become so dull, just like animals, they do not know what is the solution of the problem . . . (indistinct) *If a person, human being, does not take very seriously this problems of life, he is just like animal, go*-kharaḥ . Go means "cow," and kharaḥ means "ass." So those who are not interested, to make a solution of the problems of life, he is no better than an animal, go-kharaḥ . So this is a civilization of animal education—whole day working like ass. Ass is called mūḍhā . Mūḍhā , he works very hard, a big load of washerman's cloth is laden on his back, and he works, and the washerman gives little grass. He thinks, "He is giving me grass, therefore I must bear this load." He is such a fool that he does not know the grass is available anywhere, free of charges, but he thinks that, "This washerman is giving me grass," therefore he must have this load. Therefore ass is the most foolish animal. Amongst the animals, the most foolish animal. So we are trying to enlighten people to get them out from this foolish way of life. But, it is very difficult. Māyā is very strong. But still we have to try, because Kṛṣṇa Himself comes to enlighten people on this point, and we are supposed to be servant of Kṛṣṇa, so it is our duty to try to enlighten people. But people also should know the responsibility of human life, but they want to live like animals. So you want to live like this, or wish to go back to home, back to Godhead? Like animal, ass. (laughs) Boliye apka kya ray hai? Ap to Bharatiya hai. Ap ko to Bharatiya . . . Vedic knowledge to thoda malum hona chahiye. Ye jitne sab hai, wo itna parishram karte hai. To shastra kehte hai, ye sab gadhe hai. Aur hai bhi gadhe. Gadha ke jaisa parishram karte hai aur thoda do roti ke liye. Khane ke liye kutta bhedi ko bhi milta hai aur wo bhi wahi khate hai. Baki itna parishram karte hai aur apna jo manushya jivan ka jo kaam hai, wo kuch nahi hota. (So, what is your opinion? You are an Indian, you should have some knowledge of the *Vedas* . All these people work so hard. As per the scriptures, these people are like asses. And that is quite true. They work hard like donkeys for two pieces of bread which can be obtained so easily even by dogs and sheep. They toil so much that the real business of human life remains neglected forever.) So the Japanese boys, they have understood? Eh? You have understood? The difficulty is they cannot speak English, I cannot speak Japanese. (laughs) The difficulty is there. Anyway, you are supplying them prasādam . Go on doing that one day, they will also come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ap log roj aate hai, nahi? (Do all of you come everyday or not?) Sunday. Sunday. Today is . . .? Today is Tuesday. Tuesday. Apka kya bal baccha hai? Bal bacche . . . (Do you have any children? Children . . .) Bal bacche nahi . . . (I don't have children . . .) *Nahi. Apka patni, bhabhi? (None. Is she your wife or sister*-in-law?) Mere bhai ki . . . (My brother's . . .) India se aye hai? Kaha? (Has she come from India? Where?) Nahi. Osaka me rehte hai. (No. I'm staying in Osaka.) Osaka. Osaka is another city. Osaka. Oh. Osaka. Ap log Punjabi ho? (Do you belong to the Punjabi community?) Nahi. Bhatia hai. (No. We are Bhatia.) Bhatia? Gujarati? Karachi. Karachi. Karachi. Sindhi Bhatia. Sindhi? Abhi to hum Bombay me rehte hai. (Currently we are staying in Bombay.) Bombay me Sindhi bahut hai. (There are many Sindhis in Bombay.) Ji. Humare Bhatia sab . . . Sripad Vallabhacharya hai na, unke marg ke hai. (Oh yes. All our Bhatia . . . you know Sripad Vallabhacharya, we are from that path.) Achha! Tab to ap log Vaishnav ho. (Great. Then you people are Vaiṣṇavas.) Ji. Krishna ke hi puja me hai. (Yes. We are Vaiṣṇavas. We worship Lord Kṛṣṇa only.) Hmm. Tabhi to aate hai na. (That is the reason why you come here.) Shrinathji jate hai. (We go to Srinathji as well.) Achha. Srinath Gopal ji jo hai wo hum log ka, Gaudiya Vaishnav. Wo Madhavendra Puri . . . wo apka ye jo Vallabhacharya, wo Vishnu Swami sampradaya. Vaishnav log char sampradaya hai. Hum log hai Madhva sampradaya. Wo Madhavendra Puri ko de diya. Wo Gopal ji humara sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya. (Okay. Srinath Gopal Ji belongs to our lineage, Gaudiya Vaiṣṇava. It was Madhavendra Puri . . . Vallabhacharya , from the disciplic succession of Visnu Swami. Vaishnavas have four disciplic lineages or sampradayas . Our's is Madhva sampradaya. Madhavendra Puri gave it to him. So Gopal Ji was from our sampradaya , Gaudiya sampradaya .) *Chote Gopal ji, Srinath ji ke paas me. (The small Gopal Ji who is kept near Srinath*-ji.) Hmm. Nahi, wo Nathdwara, wo to bada Gopal. (No, the big Gopal Ji in Nathdwara.) Nahi. Chote. Srimad Vallabhacharya jinki puja karte the na. (No. The small one whom Srimad Vallabhacharya used to worship.) Oh! Wo wala. (That one.) Unka chota Gopal tha. (He had a small Deity of Gopal.) Wo wala. (That one. Bal Gopal.) Ji. (Yes.) Aur ye Nathdwara me jo Gopal ji hai, wo to bada Gopal hai. (And the Gopal Ji in Nathdwara is the bigger one.) Ji. (Yes, yes.) Wo Gopal ji Bhagavan Krishna ka jo pota, Bajra . . . unki pratisthit. Phir kuch kuch din baad, kuch gadbad hua to mandir tut gaya tha, Gopal ji jangal me kahi. Phir sapna dete hai, Madhavendra Puri se phir uthaya aur mandir sthapan kiya Govardhan me. Aur unke antim kal me ye Vallabhacharya ko de diya. Wahi Nathdwara. (The Gopal Ji of Nathdwara was installed by Vajranabh, the grandson of Lord Krsna. A few days later, there was some trouble and the temple was destroyed. Gopal Ji was lying in a jungle. Madhavendra Puri, after having a dream, again rescued Gopal from there and installed Him in a temple at Govardhan. And in the final days of his life he had given it to Vallabhacharya. That is Nathdwara.) Hmm. Ap log kitne hai sab Bharatiya idhar? (How many Indians are here all together?) Japan me? Karib teen char hazar. (In Japan? Around three to four thousand.) Char hazar. Kaise idhar to koi Bhagavan ka mandir hai hi nahi. (Four thousand? But there is no temple of the Lord anywhere.) Tokyo me nahi hai lekin Osaka, Kobe me hai. (There is no temple in Tokyo but in Kobe and Osaka, temples are there.) Kobe me hai? (Is there a temple in Kobe?) Kobe me hai. Gurudwara hai aur Ramakrishna mission ka bhi . . . (Yes, a temple is there in Kobe. Gurudwara is there and Ramkrishna mission also . . .) Huh? Ramkrishna mission. Ramakrishna mission kya hai? (laughter) Nastik hai. (It does not matter much, Ramkrishna mission (laughter). They are atheists.) Bas wahi do hai. (Only those two are there.) Wo to Hindu hi hai nahi. Ye log to Hindu hi hai nahi, Vaishnav to . . . Hindu ka baat nahi hai. Wo Krishna bhakt nahi hai. Idhar ek Krishna Bhagavan ka mandir banao. (These people are not even Hindus, forget about being a Vaiṣṇava. It is not a question of being Hindu. They are not devotees of Lord Krsna. So, build a temple here for the Supreme Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa.) Wo to Devi ke upasaka hai, Ramakrishna mission. (They are worshippers of the Goddess, the Ramkrishna mission.) *Devi ke ho, Devata ho, jo bhi ho, Bhagavan ka hona chahiye. (You may be followers of different demigods and demi*-goddesses but we should be followers of the Supreme Lord.) Ji ha. (Yes.) *Ramakrishna Mission na Devi ka, na Deva ka, wo apna pet ka hai bas. Sab kuch khate hai, sab kuch pite hai. (Ramakrishna Mission people are neither followers of any demigod or demi*-goddess, they are followers of their stomach. They eat everything, drink everything.) Ji. (Yes.) Ye Hindu dharma ka nash kar rahe hai. (They are destroying the Hindu religion.) Hmm. Ap log idhar sab vaishnav banaiye. (You make everyone into a Vaiṣṇava here.) Hum bhi to vaishnav hai. (We all are Vaiṣṇavas.) Ha. Ye log janam se sab mamsa khane wala hai. (Yes. These people were meat eaters by birth.) Ji. (Yes Sir.) Lekin sab chodh diya. Janam se. Sharab chodh diya, nasha bhang chodh diya, cha bhi nahi pite. Hum log bidi, cigarette, chay kuch nahi. Ap to jante hai. Sab jante hai, sari duniya. Aur wo sab khate hai, mamsa, machli, chay, bidi, sharab aur sab bhi, wo kehne ko nahi kuch, sab kuch. Bada jabardast Ramakrishna mission chalate hai. Kya ap log nahi jante? (But now they have given up completely. Since their birth . . . they have left drinking alcohol, any type of intoxicants and even tea. We don't take tobacco, cigarettes, tea . . . nothing. You know this. Everyone knows this all over the world. But they consume everything - meat, fish, tea, tobacco, alcohol and what not. Not even mentionable, everything. What great work they are doing, this Ramakrishna Mission! Didn't you know about this?) Jante hai. (We knew.) Jante hai. (We knew.) Sab koi jante hai. So . . . (Everyone knows this. So . . .) Lekin kya ye bachpan se wo log aisa life ji rahe hai . . . (But the thing is since childhood they are following such a lifestyle so . . .) Kya life me hai, mamsa machli khate hai, kya life? (laughter) Mussulman ka life. Mamsa machli khane wala uska kya life hai. (What lifestyle is this, eating meat and fish, what type of life is this? (laughter) The life of muslims. What life can a person have who eats meat and fish?) Kadaryo bhakhhon kore. (One eats so many dirty things.) A bengali poet . . . nana yoni bhraman kare, Kadaryo bhakhhan kare. Ye mamsa machli khane se kadaryo chiz hai . . . ye log khate nahi. Pashu ka hai to. Ye admi ka nahi. Isko humare shastra me yavana kehte hai. Rakshas kehte hai. Mamsa machli . . . mamsa kaun khata hai, wo kutta khata hai, sher, tiger . . . ye sab jungli log khate hai. Usse kya fayda milega. Tiger ka sharir bada mazboot hota hai. Usse manushya samaj ko kya fayda hoga. Aur ye jo gai hai, wo to mamsa machli nahi khati, uska dudh bina kaam hi nahi chalega. Usko to kat daal te hai. Kya kiya jaye? (One wanders through all the species and eats abominable things. This eating of meat and fish is kadaryo , a dirty thing. Humans do not eat such things. It is for animals, not for human beings. Such people are called yavanas in our scriptures. They are termed as rakshasas . Meat and fish . . . who eats meat? The dogs, lions, tigers . . . all uncivilized men eat such things. What benefit will they get? The tiger's body is very strong. But what benefit can human society have from that? And you see the cow is there, she doesn't eat fish or meat but without her milk, we cannot continue. Now, they are slaughtering her. What can be done?) Humare jo vaishnav sampradaya ke hai, to abhi abhi jo bhi bahar gaye, sab ne khana shuru kar diya. (In our Vaiṣṇava sampradaya at present, those who are living outside, they have all started eating meat.) To ho gaya. Jahannum me jayega, aur kya? (laughter) Jahannum me gaya, aur kya? Vaishnav kya . . . sabhi hum London me dekha, jitna Bharatiya hai sab mamsa khate hai. Aur go mamsa bhi khate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ye uchit nahi hai. Bhagavan ka prasad . . . idhar ap log prasad khate hai kya? (Then it's over. They will go to hell, what to do. (laughter) They are destined to go to hell. And all the Vaiṣṇavas . . . I have seen in London, all the Indians have started eating meat. They are even eating beef . . . (indistinct) . . . this should not have been done. Prasadam of the Lord . . . do you take prasadam here?) Ha, ha. Hum kuch bhi nahi khate. Pyaz, lehsun, kuch nahi. (Yes, yes. We don't take anything, no onion, no garlic . . . nothing.) Thik. (That's right.) Anda bhi nahi. Kuch nahi. Pyaz bhi nahi khate. Humare ghar ke mard pite bhi nahi hai wo to . . . cigarette wagera (laughter) . . . (We don't eat eggs either. Nothing, not even onions. The men in our family don't even smoke cigarettes etc. (laughter) . . .) So have kīrtana once more. Ap kitne din yaha rahenge? (How many days will you be staying here?) Kal chale jayenge. (I will go tomorrow.) Kal jayenge . . . (Oh you will go tomorrow . . .) *( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) Bahut bhagyavan baccha hai ye. (This child is very fortunate.) Ha. Kaise . . . (Yes. How he was . . .) Shuru se nachna . . . (He began dancing from the very beginning . . .) . . . nachna shuru karta hai (. . . began to dance.) (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) So there is prasādam for everyone. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- January 30, 1974, Tokyo According to him, he hasn't disobeyed the regulative principles of eating meat, intoxication, sex life. But he has some fantasyland in his mind, which he tries to live in. Why don't you call him, to talk. All right. Sañjaya! (break) *(indistinct) . . . so you have to learn so many things. Don't confuse yourself as authority. Then you will be misled. Therefore one has to accept a guru , just to give him direct. Anything, any field of activity, if one is know . . . ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad). One who is being directed by ācārya , he knows things. Not a vagabond. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . Why one goes to college, school? Just to follow the instruction of the teacher, and then he becomes educated. This is the general method. Anything you want to learn, you have to approach a person who knows the thing. Whimsically, if you create something in your mind, that is a madman's theory. The Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to, if we are going to learn the supreme science, science of God . . . in ordinary life, if we want to learn how to typewrite, I have to go to a typewriting school and to put this finger that way, put this finger that way. We have to learn in that way. And if we are going to learn Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, you don't require anyone's help, "Let us do anything whimsically, that is all right." It is simply ludicrous, that's all. *That has spoiled the whole spiritual life of the present humanity. Everyone manufactures his own way. There is no . . . if you learn to typewriting, you have to learn systematically: this finger here, this finger . . . not that this finger there, this finger there. That is nonsense. You cannot do anything whimsically. This is nonsense. You have to learn systematically, scientifically. Then you are actually learned in that subject matter. And that is the Vedic injunction: tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ . Do you read Bhagavad-gītā ? No. You don't require to read anything; you have perfect devotion. This is spoiled. Human life is so valuable, and in this life you can realize God, you can make solution of all your problems. And if you do whimsically and spoil your life, then the valuable, duration of life, this is not very good thing. If you manufacture, "This man is better devotee," how do you know he's a better devotee? You do not know. This is not the way. If you want to be educated, you must admit yourself as a student in a school, then in a college, then in a university. And if you say: "No, no. I don't care for anything. I know everything. This is best school; *this is better school," what is this? A teacher who has refused training of the spiritual master, how he can become a teacher? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ ( BG 4.2). Our only request is not that we are canvassing, "Come to our camp." No. You must know the science, that is all. How to become devotee, you must know it scientifically. That is all. Otherwise you go to anyone who is there—there are so many other—but because you are interested, so you must know the science. Don't do it whimsically. That will be spoiling it. That is all. If you say that one is better devotee, then you must explain who is a devotee. First of all this: you must know who is a devotee. And then, according to the advancement of devotional life, one is superior, inferior. How am I to know who to take instruction from? Huh? How am I to know who to take instruction from? I take from you, but you are not always present. First of all, you have to know whether you should be benefited, or whether one is bona fide teacher. First of all you have to know. What is your question? How you are to know? Who to take instruction from, at given moments, given times. Aside from you—he wants to follow you—but if you're not here, who should he follow? I've got so many books. All my instructions are there. But I read the books with my mind, and I misinterpret. Then those who are following me, you go to them that, "I am understanding like this. Is it all right?" *But Siddha*-svarūpa group was following you, and they were reading and interpreting. So I turned to them and asked questions. *But the thing is, Siddha*-svarūpa, how he can interpret that he reads my book and he gives up my company? Is it very good interpretation? I never knew he gave up your company. Yes. I thought he was still your devotee. *No. They have given me up, you see. Of course, Siddha*-svarūpa, I do not know. He is not so fool. But these people, they are in Hawaii—Gaurasundara, and this Sudāmā Vipra—they do not come to see me. What I've done? Eh? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). When you have accepted somebody as a spiritual master . . . if you have given up spiritual master, that is a different thing. But if you accept somebody as spiritual master, you must come and offer your obeisances and respect. That is the first principle. They did not come to me. I remained there how many days? Two weeks. Two weeks. I called them also, immediately. What Gaurasundara said? That I can come to him? Like that. They wanted you to visit their place. You see? Maybe they have something nice for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Ah? Maybe they have something nice for you. Something? Something nice, on their property, or their place, for you. Oh. So something nice, therefore you can call your spiritual master, "Come here," as you call your dog? Is that very good sign? No, it is not good sign. Anyone who will manufacture his own way of devotion, he is a rascal. It is not possible. So they are manufacturing their own way of devotion now? Yes. Yes. Their keeping long hairs, karmi ? Yes. And what do they say? "There is no need of living in the temple. There is . . ." What is the . . . just like you also said like that: "There is no need of living in the temple." What did he say? "It is better to live in the railway station"? Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Huh? Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . In the railway station also there is rules and regulation. When the train comes: rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang . Why? Why you get up? "Oh, train is coming." Everywhere you go there are rules and regulation. You cannot find any place without rules and regulation. There is no possibility to escape rules and regulation. If you break the ordinary health rules, immediately you will become sick. You cannot transgress the rules and regulation of material nature. Immediately you become sick, and you'll have to suffer. So there is no such thing as to transgress rules and regulation. You have to. If you challenge, that is your foolishness. Anywhere you go, you have to follow the rules and regulation. If you don't follow, then you will have to suffer. Is it not? Anywhere you go. Anywhere, where you go, you'll have to live under the rules and regulation of material nature. That you cannot escape. So where you'll go, either you go to Japan or you go to America or anywhere you go, the principles of rules and regulation and nature is the same. Can you break the rules and regulations—sometimes they say: "Keep to the right, keep to the left"? That is not possible. If you want to drive your car on the street, you must follow the rules. Can you transgress the red light and yellow light? No. Where is the possibility of becoming independent? Is there any possibility? Anywhere you go. No, there is always some law or some rule and regulation. Everywhere. So how you'll avoid that? And above all, just like you are a nice young boy, so you have to follow the rules and regulation to become an old man like me. Can you avoid? No way around it. Then where is the possibility of breaking rules and regulation? If you don't follow, you'll be forced to follow. That is criminality. When you are forced to follow, that is criminality. And if you voluntarily follow, that is civility. You cannot avoid. There is no such chance. The rules and regulation, nature's law: One has to take birth, to come to the material world, through the agency of father and mother. That father and mother may be human being or cats and dogs or anyone, but this is the rule. Through the father and mother you have to come. Can anyone avoid that, that "Without father and mother I will come"? (laughter) So the beginning of your life there are rules and regulation. Huh? Similarly, as soon as you become old, natural death. It is not that . . . that you can avoid death. You must die—today or tomorrow or a hundred years after. You must die. "As sure as death." Then? Can you avoid the rules and regulation? You cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your birth; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your death; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of falling sick; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your becoming old. You have to follow. But at heart we have got a tendency to think like that, that "How I can avoid these rules and regulation?" That tendency's there. That is possible when you are liberated. So long you are under the rules and regulation of the material nature, you cannot avoid. But when you're liberated from the clutches of māyā , then you can avoid. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: how to become liberated from these rules and regulation. Within the jail you cannot break rules and regulation. You must follow. If you don't follow, then you'll be more punished. So when one is liberated from the jail, he is free. Similarly, so long we get this material body, we have to follow the rules and regulations of material laws. We cannot avoid. If you don't follow, you'll be more punished. Just like a human being—he's given the chance, a better form of life than the other animals. But if he does not follow the rules and regulation of a human being, he'll again going to cat and dog. Can you avoid it? Then? The rule and regulation for the human being is to learn to love God? Yes. That is the only business of human being. *That is first*-class occupational duty: how to learn to love God. And we can only learn through a bona fide spiritual master? Through the . . . Yes. Spiritual master is the representative of God. So if you cannot love your spiritual master, how you can love God? If you love me, you love my dog. Suppose you love somebody, and in his presence you kick his dog. Will he be pleased? He will not. *He will immediately, "You rascal, you don't come here. Get out!" Therefore it is common saying: "If you love me, love my dog, first." So if you love God's dog, then God automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (ŚrīŚrī Gurv-aṣṭaka). If he is pleased, then God automatically is pleased—even if you're wrong. This is the way. These boys, they are doing that. I am an Indian; I've come from foreign country. I did not bring any riches for them, or bribe them. Why they are following? Out of love. That's why I am following you, Prabhupāda. But if you live alone in the railway station, how you can follow? Huh? Just like a boy and girl, love—"Yes, you live three thousand miles away, and I live three thousand miles away, and still we love." What is that love? Love, there are six symptoms: These symptoms of love means one must give and take. One must disclose his mind and take instruction. One must give him to eat, and one must take something from him to eat. These are the six symptoms of love. Give and take. Just like you have given me this flower, so you have given. So if I instructed, "You take it," that is give and take. If I offer you prasādam , you should bring some foodstuff. You should disclose your mind, and you should say that, "This is my problem; you should hear me." This is a symptom of love. Everything is there. So our only request is that our business is we are in this old age traveling four times in a year. What is material benefit out of it? I am old man. I cannot move. I am eighty years, and two years less. Naturally this is not the age for traveling, retirement. But why I am traveling? Because I wanted to satisfy my Guru Mahārāja. That is the only reason. I wanted to satisfy the desire of my Guru Mahārāja, the desire of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And therefore at night I don't sleep; *I dictate. I publish this book. I go from country to country, village to village, town to town. And they also reciprocate, these boys. They're helping me, how to publish these book, these boys. That boy is editing twenty*-four hours; he is typing. Do I pay them anything? Not material. That's all. This is love. "I go away from Guru Mahārāja and live four hundred miles away, and I love Guru Mahārāja." This is not . . . nonsense. You show some symptoms of love, that, "My Guru Mahārāja wants to do this. Oh, I must help him." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted, prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, everywhere must there be—I mean to say—broadcasting My missionary activities." So my Guru Mahārāja attempted that. Everyone should attempt. Anyone who is followers . . . just like any, any religion, any system. Just like a Christian, if he is real Christian, if he is actually following Lord Jesus Christ, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." He must propagate, "You shall not kill." But where is that Christian who is propagating? They are killing. On the other hand they are killing. Is that a good Christian? They are not following, so they are not good. That is the . . . you see. It is clearly said in the first commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." So every Christian, they must preach this cult. That is Christian. And he's helping killing, and he's a Christian? Similarly, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, you must preach this cult." That is really devotee, one who is doing this. He may not be very successful preacher; *that doesn't matter. Because he is doing that, he is first*-class devotee. Anywhere you go, that is real love. That is real follower. What his predecessor has ordered, that must be done. At any risk. It doesn't matter whether it is being nicely done or not nicely done—because he is attempting to do that, that is sufficient. That very attempt will make him successful. This is the principle. You see? Uh, we must . . . vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Unfortunately, you do not read. What for we are publishing so many books, for the enlightenment of the people? Find this verse. Gita , second chapter. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many*-branched." Yes. "Who are irresolute." Now, our only resolution was that, "Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Let me try it." And with resolute purpose, I tried it. And therefore, I do not know, but people say that I have done very wonderful. People say that. Even in our countrymen, those who are not very favorably disposed to, they also admit that I have done something wonderful. But what is the secret of this success? That resolution that, "My Guru Mahārāja wanted this. I shall try my best to do this," that's all. I have no other secrets. Rather, I was doubtful that, "What I have got position, how people will understand? Still, let me try my best," that's all. For Japan, what would you like us to do? Ah? For Japan, what would you like us to do? That I have already advised. Where is Bhanu? He is busy with the Deities now. Hmmm. Japan . . . why Japan? Anywhere. This is, at the present moment, the whole civilization is demonic. Whole civilization. The demons, they will not very much inclined to hear about philosophy. They are not inclined. There is a Bengali saying, churā na mane ghar me kayi . Suppose a man is thief, and if you instruct him good lessons, "My dear man, you are stealing. It is not very good. You are doing, so you'll have to suffer misery," does he care for it? Does he care? "Oh, you rascal, go on talking—I shall do my own business." So churā na , he is a churā , he's a thief. You give him good philosophy, he will not hear. Then, how to cure him? That is given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu: *Give him chance to hear this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Chant yourself, either by this karatāla and drums. If it is prohibited, then distribute books. This is also chanting, just like we recite it. Somehow or other, let him hear something about us. This is chanting, śravanaṁ. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), through chant and hear. If he's not chanting, let him hear. If he's not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you chant; let him hear. That will cure. So that is the way. So in Japan or anywhere, everyone is demon. These wonderful things . . . and we're thinking the material advancement. Suppose this Dictaphone . . . this Dictaphone is all right, so long it is used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The 747 airplane is very good, so long it carries devotees for preaching work. This is the philosophy. *Everything must be . . . so we do not hate anything, because we know that everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if that thing is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is perfect. That is perfect. We are using everything—the electricity, the Dictaphone, the table—but we are not using it for sense gratification. Every moment we are engaged. Avyartha*-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18), that is higher advance that, "This time I have passed, what I have done for Kṛṣṇa?" This is character of advancement, "What I have done for Kṛṣṇa? What I have done for my Guru Mahārāja?" If in this way we lead our life, that is perfect. That is perfect. "Guru Mahārāja has entrusted me with this business. How far I have done this?" that is perfect. *So if you don't care for your Guru Mahārāja, don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and you do whimsically what you like, that is not progress. That is degradation. These are the formula: avyartha . . . nāma*-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32), avyartha-kālatvaṁ, prītis tad-vasati-sthale (CC Madhya 23.19). The advanced devotee will feel like this, "How I shall live in a temple or in a place like Vṛndāvana and Mathurā, prītis tad-vasati-sthale ?" Prīti means love—to live there, where Kṛṣṇa's devotee is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa's temple is there. Not in the railway station. Prītis tad-vasati-sthale. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci , always hankering after, "How I can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra ?" Nāma-gāne sadā. Avyartha-kālatvaṁ , to scrutinizely seeing whether I have wasted my time without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things are the symptoms of advanced devotee. You cannot say: "Oh, he's advanced." What he's doing for Kṛṣṇa? First of all think, "He's advanced devotee; *that is all right. But what is he doing for his guru ? What is he doing for his . . . Kṛṣṇa?" That is a test. If somebody is doing something whimsically, he is not advanced devotee. He may speak all nonsense, but that is not advancement. You have to see practically: what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa, what is he's doing for his spiritual master. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). These are the process. So you are a very nice boy, I see. Everyone has got potency, but you have got a special inclination. So my request is that don't spoil your life. Life is very valuable. You do not imagine, concoct something, and follow. That will not help. You must follow the standard rules and regulations, standard way. Then you will be successful. Don't do anything whimsically. That will not help. That is our request. Thank you. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) *Śrīla Prabhupāda, now generally we have Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam class. Yes. So, want me? Please. Alright, let us go? (end) Conversation -- January 30, 1974, Tokyo According to him, he hasn't disobeyed the regulative principles of eating meat, intoxication, sex life. But he has some fantasyland in his mind, which he tries to live in. Why don't you call him, to talk. All right. Sañjaya! (break) *(indistinct) . . . so you have to learn so many things. Don't confuse yourself as authority. Then you will be misled. Therefore one has to accept a guru , just to give him direct. Anything, any field of activity, if one is know . . . ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad). One who is being directed by ācārya , he knows things. Not a vagabond. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . Why one goes to college, school? Just to follow the instruction of the teacher, and then he becomes educated. This is the general method. Anything you want to learn, you have to approach a person who knows the thing. Whimsically, if you create something in your mind, that is a madman's theory. The Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to, if we are going to learn the supreme science, science of God . . . in ordinary life, if we want to learn how to typewrite, I have to go to a typewriting school and to put this finger that way, put this finger that way. We have to learn in that way. And if we are going to learn Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, you don't require anyone's help, "Let us do anything whimsically, that is all right." It is simply ludicrous, that's all. *That has spoiled the whole spiritual life of the present humanity. Everyone manufactures his own way. There is no . . . if you learn to typewriting, you have to learn systematically: this finger here, this finger . . . not that this finger there, this finger there. That is nonsense. You cannot do anything whimsically. This is nonsense. You have to learn systematically, scientifically. Then you are actually learned in that subject matter. And that is the Vedic injunction: tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ . Do you read Bhagavad-gītā ? No. You don't require to read anything; you have perfect devotion. This is spoiled. Human life is so valuable, and in this life you can realize God, you can make solution of all your problems. And if you do whimsically and spoil your life, then the valuable, duration of life, this is not very good thing. If you manufacture, "This man is better devotee," how do you know he's a better devotee? You do not know. This is not the way. If you want to be educated, you must admit yourself as a student in a school, then in a college, then in a university. And if you say: "No, no. I don't care for anything. I know everything. This is best school; *this is better school," what is this? A teacher who has refused training of the spiritual master, how he can become a teacher? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ ( BG 4.2). Our only request is not that we are canvassing, "Come to our camp." No. You must know the science, that is all. How to become devotee, you must know it scientifically. That is all. Otherwise you go to anyone who is there—there are so many other—but because you are interested, so you must know the science. Don't do it whimsically. That will be spoiling it. That is all. If you say that one is better devotee, then you must explain who is a devotee. First of all this: you must know who is a devotee. And then, according to the advancement of devotional life, one is superior, inferior. How am I to know who to take instruction from? Huh? How am I to know who to take instruction from? I take from you, but you are not always present. First of all, you have to know whether you should be benefited, or whether one is bona fide teacher. First of all you have to know. What is your question? How you are to know? Who to take instruction from, at given moments, given times. Aside from you—he wants to follow you—but if you're not here, who should he follow? I've got so many books. All my instructions are there. But I read the books with my mind, and I misinterpret. Then those who are following me, you go to them that, "I am understanding like this. Is it all right?" *But Siddha*-svarūpa group was following you, and they were reading and interpreting. So I turned to them and asked questions. *But the thing is, Siddha*-svarūpa, how he can interpret that he reads my book and he gives up my company? Is it very good interpretation? I never knew he gave up your company. Yes. I thought he was still your devotee. *No. They have given me up, you see. Of course, Siddha*-svarūpa, I do not know. He is not so fool. But these people, they are in Hawaii—Gaurasundara, and this Sudāmā Vipra—they do not come to see me. What I've done? Eh? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). When you have accepted somebody as a spiritual master . . . if you have given up spiritual master, that is a different thing. But if you accept somebody as spiritual master, you must come and offer your obeisances and respect. That is the first principle. They did not come to me. I remained there how many days? Two weeks. Two weeks. I called them also, immediately. What Gaurasundara said? That I can come to him? Like that. They wanted you to visit their place. You see? Maybe they have something nice for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Ah? Maybe they have something nice for you. Something? Something nice, on their property, or their place, for you. Oh. So something nice, therefore you can call your spiritual master, "Come here," as you call your dog? Is that very good sign? No, it is not good sign. Anyone who will manufacture his own way of devotion, he is a rascal. It is not possible. So they are manufacturing their own way of devotion now? Yes. Yes. Their keeping long hairs, karmi ? Yes. And what do they say? "There is no need of living in the temple. There is . . ." What is the . . . just like you also said like that: "There is no need of living in the temple." What did he say? "It is better to live in the railway station"? Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Huh? Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . In the railway station also there is rules and regulation. When the train comes: rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang . Why? Why you get up? "Oh, train is coming." Everywhere you go there are rules and regulation. You cannot find any place without rules and regulation. There is no possibility to escape rules and regulation. If you break the ordinary health rules, immediately you will become sick. You cannot transgress the rules and regulation of material nature. Immediately you become sick, and you'll have to suffer. So there is no such thing as to transgress rules and regulation. You have to. If you challenge, that is your foolishness. Anywhere you go, you have to follow the rules and regulation. If you don't follow, then you will have to suffer. Is it not? Anywhere you go. Anywhere, where you go, you'll have to live under the rules and regulation of material nature. That you cannot escape. So where you'll go, either you go to Japan or you go to America or anywhere you go, the principles of rules and regulation and nature is the same. Can you break the rules and regulations—sometimes they say: "Keep to the right, keep to the left"? That is not possible. If you want to drive your car on the street, you must follow the rules. Can you transgress the red light and yellow light? No. Where is the possibility of becoming independent? Is there any possibility? Anywhere you go. No, there is always some law or some rule and regulation. Everywhere. So how you'll avoid that? And above all, just like you are a nice young boy, so you have to follow the rules and regulation to become an old man like me. Can you avoid? No way around it. Then where is the possibility of breaking rules and regulation? If you don't follow, you'll be forced to follow. That is criminality. When you are forced to follow, that is criminality. And if you voluntarily follow, that is civility. You cannot avoid. There is no such chance. The rules and regulation, nature's law: One has to take birth, to come to the material world, through the agency of father and mother. That father and mother may be human being or cats and dogs or anyone, but this is the rule. Through the father and mother you have to come. Can anyone avoid that, that "Without father and mother I will come"? (laughter) So the beginning of your life there are rules and regulation. Huh? Similarly, as soon as you become old, natural death. It is not that . . . that you can avoid death. You must die—today or tomorrow or a hundred years after. You must die. "As sure as death." Then? Can you avoid the rules and regulation? You cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your birth; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your death; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of falling sick; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your becoming old. You have to follow. But at heart we have got a tendency to think like that, that "How I can avoid these rules and regulation?" That tendency's there. That is possible when you are liberated. So long you are under the rules and regulation of the material nature, you cannot avoid. But when you're liberated from the clutches of māyā , then you can avoid. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: how to become liberated from these rules and regulation. Within the jail you cannot break rules and regulation. You must follow. If you don't follow, then you'll be more punished. So when one is liberated from the jail, he is free. Similarly, so long we get this material body, we have to follow the rules and regulations of material laws. We cannot avoid. If you don't follow, you'll be more punished. Just like a human being—he's given the chance, a better form of life than the other animals. But if he does not follow the rules and regulation of a human being, he'll again going to cat and dog. Can you avoid it? Then? The rule and regulation for the human being is to learn to love God? Yes. That is the only business of human being. *That is first*-class occupational duty: how to learn to love God. And we can only learn through a bona fide spiritual master? Through the . . . Yes. Spiritual master is the representative of God. So if you cannot love your spiritual master, how you can love God? If you love me, you love my dog. Suppose you love somebody, and in his presence you kick his dog. Will he be pleased? He will not. *He will immediately, "You rascal, you don't come here. Get out!" Therefore it is common saying: "If you love me, love my dog, first." So if you love God's dog, then God automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (ŚrīŚrī Gurv-aṣṭaka). If he is pleased, then God automatically is pleased—even if you're wrong. This is the way. These boys, they are doing that. I am an Indian; I've come from foreign country. I did not bring any riches for them, or bribe them. Why they are following? Out of love. That's why I am following you, Prabhupāda. But if you live alone in the railway station, how you can follow? Huh? Just like a boy and girl, love—"Yes, you live three thousand miles away, and I live three thousand miles away, and still we love." What is that love? Love, there are six symptoms: These symptoms of love means one must give and take. One must disclose his mind and take instruction. One must give him to eat, and one must take something from him to eat. These are the six symptoms of love. Give and take. Just like you have given me this flower, so you have given. So if I instructed, "You take it," that is give and take. If I offer you prasādam , you should bring some foodstuff. You should disclose your mind, and you should say that, "This is my problem; you should hear me." This is a symptom of love. Everything is there. So our only request is that our business is we are in this old age traveling four times in a year. What is material benefit out of it? I am old man. I cannot move. I am eighty years, and two years less. Naturally this is not the age for traveling, retirement. But why I am traveling? Because I wanted to satisfy my Guru Mahārāja. That is the only reason. I wanted to satisfy the desire of my Guru Mahārāja, the desire of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And therefore at night I don't sleep; *I dictate. I publish this book. I go from country to country, village to village, town to town. And they also reciprocate, these boys. They're helping me, how to publish these book, these boys. That boy is editing twenty*-four hours; he is typing. Do I pay them anything? Not material. That's all. This is love. "I go away from Guru Mahārāja and live four hundred miles away, and I love Guru Mahārāja." This is not . . . nonsense. You show some symptoms of love, that, "My Guru Mahārāja wants to do this. Oh, I must help him." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted, prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, everywhere must there be—I mean to say—broadcasting My missionary activities." So my Guru Mahārāja attempted that. Everyone should attempt. Anyone who is followers . . . just like any, any religion, any system. Just like a Christian, if he is real Christian, if he is actually following Lord Jesus Christ, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." He must propagate, "You shall not kill." But where is that Christian who is propagating? They are killing. On the other hand they are killing. Is that a good Christian? They are not following, so they are not good. That is the . . . you see. It is clearly said in the first commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." So every Christian, they must preach this cult. That is Christian. And he's helping killing, and he's a Christian? Similarly, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, you must preach this cult." That is really devotee, one who is doing this. He may not be very successful preacher; *that doesn't matter. Because he is doing that, he is first*-class devotee. Anywhere you go, that is real love. That is real follower. What his predecessor has ordered, that must be done. At any risk. It doesn't matter whether it is being nicely done or not nicely done—because he is attempting to do that, that is sufficient. That very attempt will make him successful. This is the principle. You see? Uh, we must . . . vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Unfortunately, you do not read. What for we are publishing so many books, for the enlightenment of the people? Find this verse. Gita , second chapter. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many*-branched." Yes. "Who are irresolute." Now, our only resolution was that, "Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Let me try it." And with resolute purpose, I tried it. And therefore, I do not know, but people say that I have done very wonderful. People say that. Even in our countrymen, those who are not very favorably disposed to, they also admit that I have done something wonderful. But what is the secret of this success? That resolution that, "My Guru Mahārāja wanted this. I shall try my best to do this," that's all. I have no other secrets. Rather, I was doubtful that, "What I have got position, how people will understand? Still, let me try my best," that's all. For Japan, what would you like us to do? Ah? For Japan, what would you like us to do? That I have already advised. Where is Bhanu? He is busy with the Deities now. Hmmm. Japan . . . why Japan? Anywhere. This is, at the present moment, the whole civilization is demonic. Whole civilization. The demons, they will not very much inclined to hear about philosophy. They are not inclined. There is a Bengali saying, churā na mane ghar me kayi . Suppose a man is thief, and if you instruct him good lessons, "My dear man, you are stealing. It is not very good. You are doing, so you'll have to suffer misery," does he care for it? Does he care? "Oh, you rascal, go on talking—I shall do my own business." So churā na , he is a churā , he's a thief. You give him good philosophy, he will not hear. Then, how to cure him? That is given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu: *Give him chance to hear this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Chant yourself, either by this karatāla and drums. If it is prohibited, then distribute books. This is also chanting, just like we recite it. Somehow or other, let him hear something about us. This is chanting, śravanaṁ. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), through chant and hear. If he's not chanting, let him hear. If he's not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you chant; let him hear. That will cure. So that is the way. So in Japan or anywhere, everyone is demon. These wonderful things . . . and we're thinking the material advancement. Suppose this Dictaphone . . . this Dictaphone is all right, so long it is used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The 747 airplane is very good, so long it carries devotees for preaching work. This is the philosophy. *Everything must be . . . so we do not hate anything, because we know that everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if that thing is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is perfect. That is perfect. We are using everything—the electricity, the Dictaphone, the table—but we are not using it for sense gratification. Every moment we are engaged. Avyartha*-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18), that is higher advance that, "This time I have passed, what I have done for Kṛṣṇa?" This is character of advancement, "What I have done for Kṛṣṇa? What I have done for my Guru Mahārāja?" If in this way we lead our life, that is perfect. That is perfect. "Guru Mahārāja has entrusted me with this business. How far I have done this?" that is perfect. *So if you don't care for your Guru Mahārāja, don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and you do whimsically what you like, that is not progress. That is degradation. These are the formula: avyartha . . . nāma*-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32), avyartha-kālatvaṁ, prītis tad-vasati-sthale (CC Madhya 23.19). The advanced devotee will feel like this, "How I shall live in a temple or in a place like Vṛndāvana and Mathurā, prītis tad-vasati-sthale ?" Prīti means love—to live there, where Kṛṣṇa's devotee is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa's temple is there. Not in the railway station. Prītis tad-vasati-sthale. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci , always hankering after, "How I can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra ?" Nāma-gāne sadā. Avyartha-kālatvaṁ , to scrutinizely seeing whether I have wasted my time without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things are the symptoms of advanced devotee. You cannot say: "Oh, he's advanced." What he's doing for Kṛṣṇa? First of all think, "He's advanced devotee; *that is all right. But what is he doing for his guru ? What is he doing for his . . . Kṛṣṇa?" That is a test. If somebody is doing something whimsically, he is not advanced devotee. He may speak all nonsense, but that is not advancement. You have to see practically: what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa, what is he's doing for his spiritual master. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). These are the process. So you are a very nice boy, I see. Everyone has got potency, but you have got a special inclination. So my request is that don't spoil your life. Life is very valuable. You do not imagine, concoct something, and follow. That will not help. You must follow the standard rules and regulations, standard way. Then you will be successful. Don't do anything whimsically. That will not help. That is our request. Thank you. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) *Śrīla Prabhupāda, now generally we have Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam class. Yes. So, want me? Please. Alright, let us go? (end) Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Vrndavana *My Godbrother's son*-in-law, they came to see me. Any service for me? What you are doing there now? Um, I've just been talking with Saurabha about the Māyāpur plans to present at this conference in Vancouver, acquisition. We're making a presentation there. Oh. So we're getting that together. Tomorrow I'm leaving. For Vancouver? *No, I'm go . . . tomorrow I'm going to join Bhavānanda for a week, Bhavānanda Swami. Then I go to Delhi to see . . . and I'm also going to Bhuvaneśvara for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Then I'm going to Delhi to see that American Ambassador again about putting our name on the food list, Indo*-American food list, then Vṛndāvana, then Vancouver. So gradually there will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go where? New York. New York. Delhi to New York? Yes. Then go to the Western . . . (indistinct) Yes. New York then . . . (indistinct) I think it is direct. That I can do. America chala jayega. (Went to America.) Idhar baithiye. Akele aya aap toh? (Sit here. You all came alone?) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhiye kaise ye log sab prachaar kar rahe hai. (Just see how this boy is preaching.) Humare un karovar ke liye jaane ka vichaar tha wo toh kab jan jan ka sajjan hai. (I was thinking of going there for business purposes, but that will be after the business is established well, then we will see.) Kya? (What?) In relation with our business also, I am thinking of going. No business. (laughter) Don't go. Business is this hari kīrtana . Dekho ye log business sab jaante hai. Toh unse business kaun karega? (Just see, they know how to do business very well but who will do business with them?) Anyway, kind of you. I just said that I had thought of that in my own different way also. Business is bad. People carry on business for happiness and enough to eat and enough clothing. That, no separate endeavor is necessary. Kṛṣṇa gives it all, and more happiness. We can attest to that because we did business. All of us were businessmen. Humara ye sab prchar me kam se kam daily dus hazaaar aadmi ekhathe hote hai. Koi humara . . . (In our preaching program about ten thousand people attend everyday. Our nothing is) . . . . . . koi kam nahi karta hai. (indistinct) . . . (Nothing falls short. The Lord only gives.) Hum aise hi rehte hai. (indistinct) . . . (They stay here like this, they are all well educated people) . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, I see that are . . . (indistinct) No, I am not leaving. Whether Kṛṣṇa gives me fifty rupees or five million rupees, it does not make much difference, because I am in the line, because I am in the line. That's all. I may leave any time. No, no, that's all right. I may leave any time also. That is our purpose to do something. Unfortunately some things happened, and some court matters are going on. Court? Court matters, some, some lawsuits, etc., which I have filed which aggregate to the extent of about crore rupees or so. Hmm. Oh, I mean I'll get that much. That could be as good amount as you file . . . Where? Where? Your claim? Yes, yes. You have to . . . you have to pay so much stamping fee. No. The maximum stamp duty to be paid is fifteen thousand. Even if you've got a claim of fifteen crores , fifteen thousand is the maximum stamp duty you have to pay. You don't have to pay more. Fifteen thousand you have to pay? Yes. Anartheno nyaya rohita . . . in this age, Kali. (indistinct Hindi) . . . he owes me money, and I couldn't get my money back from him. *If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming after all it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then . . . vaqil (. . . lawyer) so on, so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali*-yuga. Anartheno nyaya rohita. Nyay milega hi nahi (You will not get justice) . . . (indistinct) A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some spaces, but even then you have to field yourself two times . . . (indistinct) . . . and remain in the . . . I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego . . . (indistinct) . . . what you're saying is hundred percent true. It's like that. Yes. And nowadays bribe also. Yeah. This is a must. *Fourth*-class, śūdra . . . (indistinct) . . . bribe. It is concerning one of the partners. . . . (indistinct) . . . another partner. (indistinct) . . . they demand it as a bribe also. (indistinct) . . . your partner like that? *Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali*-yuga. One thing is there: When I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything. That's a fact. And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get . . . If you're getting . . . I am liberated that very day. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat. Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to . . . I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things. Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced. Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the . . . *Advanced means such*-and-such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. I don't go. (break) . . . Prabhupada from 1923 to '37 We have got an appointment. We have got . . . (break) . . . somewhere. Saturday they close at . . . by 3 or 3:30, so I want to go before that. You can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty. Prasadam be ready by half past twelve, one (laughter) No, why bother? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prasāde sarva duḥkhānāṁ . (laughter) Hānir asyopajāyate. *I can tell you one practical. So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye ( SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod—Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal, the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is overflood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their . . . the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas , that is there. *Indra , there is indragop , one very small insect. It is also called indra, indragop , insect. And another Indra is the King of heaven. So śāstra says from this Indra to that indra , everyone is bound up by his karma . It includes all others, from this indra to that Indra. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Everyone is bound up by the resultant action of his karma . It cannot be changed. *So śāstra says don't try to change your karma*-phala . Better utilize that energy for becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you cannot change the destiny. That is not possible. Then shall I not endeavor for improvement of my economic . . . economic position? No. Why? I am, because destiny, whatever you have got your destiny, you'll get it. How shall I get it? Now suppose if you are put into some unwanted circumstances—you do not want it—you are forced to accept it. So similarly, as distressed condition comes upon you without your wanting, similarly, the position of happiness also will come , even you don't have to try for it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham (SB 1.5.18). Just like distressed condition, unhappiness, nobody wants, but it comes by force. Similarly, the conditional happiness of life . . . because everyone's life is mixed up with some distress or happiness. Nobody can say: "I am simply happy." That is not possible. Distress is there, but nobody wants distress. But it comes. So why happiness will not come? So don't waste your time in this way, because you cannot change this. This will come, automatically. You try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which you never tried. And that is recommended. *And there is a Bengali verse, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya (Prema*-vivarta): to take care of oneself by the fathers, that is available in every life. Because the ant is also taking care. That is not human society, but he's still taking care. A tiger also taking care. The small cubs, they're loitering on the . . . on the body of the lion, and he is feeling very nice. Even monkeys, I have seen. One monkey came in the window, and she had one small child, and somehow or other the child came inside my room. She, that outside monkey, became mad after it. So I had to take . . . (laughs) The affection is there. The ant, they're affectionate; the snake affectionate; the tiger affectionate; the man is affectionate. That is given. Otherwise, who will take care? So therefore the Vaiṣṇava kavi says, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: in every life you'll get father and mother and their protection; *kṛṣṇe guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei: but in every life you cannot get Kṛṣṇa and guru take care of. Because unless you get Kṛṣṇa and guru , then you are within the cycle of birth and death. And you get father and mother and their care, that is all right, but Kṛṣṇa*-guru does not come in that way. That you have to search out. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti . . . (CC Madhya 19.151). Because Kṛṣṇa- guru will give you the nucleus of devotional life. So kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei (Prema-vivarta). So actually, that is the fact. And I was going to tell about Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī was a great devotee, so he was thinking of taking sannyāsa . So he was contemplating that, "I shall now leave my home and take sannyāsa ." So in the meantime, his wife became pregnant. Then he thought that, "I was thinking like that. Anyway, this has happened, and if I take sannyāsa now, what people will say, that 'His wife is pregnant and he has taken sannyāsa , he has gone out of home.' " So he waited, the child was born, and the mother died. (laughing) Then he thought, "I do not know what Kṛṣṇa desires. Who will take care of this child, motherless child?" So that he was thinking very deeply. One lizard dropped before him, one small child lizard. Maane, (Means,) gave birth to a child this small, and the small lizard was staying, and immediately small ant came before the mouth of that small lizard, and he ate. Then Śrīdhara Svāmī thought, "The every arrangement is there. Why I am thinking of this and that?" Immediately went away. Actually, that is the position. The actual care is taken by Kṛṣṇa, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is taking care of everyone. *Best thing is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his term is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara*-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra . It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila . *So it is recommended in the human form of life first of all training as a brahmacārī , then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty*-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī , remain as brahmacārī; *and twenty*-five years to remain as gṛhastha , family man; *and twenty*-five years as vānaprastha; *and twenty-five years as sannyāsa . This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means.. vānaprastha is the preparation for sannyāsa , and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances, you have fallen into the material condition, but if we take, "This is all-in*-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra . It is circumstances. We have fallen into . . . under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving . . . trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution. As far as possible live, for we have got rooms like that. Live there and take little prasādam , and fully devote time how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. So it is authorized by the śāstras, pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . Therefore you'll find still. But now the things have changed that every holy places there are so many men retired. (break) (break) ". . . with my family member shall come to fight with me, so what shall I say, that I have to kill my nephew, I have to kill my brother, I have to kill my grandfather, this is the fight? No, no, I am not going to fight, let them all die." That is natural. So read it. "So how can I kill my brother and nephew and others, family members? So my bow is dropping." Go on. Yes, viparītāni . "I came to fight, to gain my kingdom, but I see the opposite." Viparītāni . "I'll not be able to enjoy my kingdom by killing them." That thing is said there. Go on. Ah, translation? No, no. You can go on. Translation. "I do not see how any good can come from killing my own kinsmen in this battle, nor can I, my dear Kṛṣṇa, desire any subsequent victory, kingdom or happiness." Naturally this will be. Then? Generally we improve our material condition just to become happy with relatives. When we construct a new house, we invite relatives. So they may come, they will say: "Oh, you have done very nice," and he is also pleased, "My relatives, they have seen." But "If all the relatives are killed, then how it will be possible for me to enjoy the kingdom?" Yeṣām arthe kāṅkṣitam rājyam . Bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Yes, bhogāḥ sukhāni ca . Then? Ta ime 'vasthitā yuddhe . "They, for whom I wanted this kingdom, they are in my path. I have to kill them. So what kind of fight is this?" Then? "I have to kill them, all the religious and family members." Then? Etān na hantum icchāmi . "I don't like. I don't want this fight." (laughs) Then? Ghnato 'pi madhusūdana. "Then let them kill me. I'll tolerate that. But I am not going to kill them." Then? *So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś . . . (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e . . . (BG 18.66): "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, you do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam , "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. (break) . . . a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and He is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. "What kind of God He is?" They have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this . . . In New York. New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that, "How it is good, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?" Although Arjuna was making his own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him *Gītā* and then inducing him to change his plan, "Go on, fight!" (end) Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Vrndavana *My Godbrother's son*-in-law, they came to see me. Any service for me? What you are doing there now? Um, I've just been talking with Saurabha about the Māyāpur plans to present at this conference in Vancouver, acquisition. We're making a presentation there. Oh. So we're getting that together. Tomorrow I'm leaving. For Vancouver? *No, I'm go . . . tomorrow I'm going to join Bhavānanda for a week, Bhavānanda Swami. Then I go to Delhi to see . . . and I'm also going to Bhuvaneśvara for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Then I'm going to Delhi to see that American Ambassador again about putting our name on the food list, Indo*-American food list, then Vṛndāvana, then Vancouver. So gradually there will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go where? New York. New York. Delhi to New York? Yes. Then go to the Western . . . (indistinct) Yes. New York then . . . (indistinct) I think it is direct. That I can do. America chala jayega. (Went to America.) Idhar baithiye. Akele aya aap toh? (Sit here. You all came alone?) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhiye kaise ye log sab prachaar kar rahe hai. (Just see how this boy is preaching.) Humare un karovar ke liye jaane ka vichaar tha wo toh kab jan jan ka sajjan hai. (I was thinking of going there for business purposes, but that will be after the business is established well, then we will see.) Kya? (What?) In relation with our business also, I am thinking of going. No business. (laughter) Don't go. Business is this hari kīrtana . Dekho ye log business sab jaante hai. Toh unse business kaun karega? (Just see, they know how to do business very well but who will do business with them?) Anyway, kind of you. I just said that I had thought of that in my own different way also. Business is bad. People carry on business for happiness and enough to eat and enough clothing. That, no separate endeavor is necessary. Kṛṣṇa gives it all, and more happiness. We can attest to that because we did business. All of us were businessmen. Humara ye sab prchar me kam se kam daily dus hazaaar aadmi ekhathe hote hai. Koi humara . . . (In our preaching program about ten thousand people attend everyday. Our nothing is) . . . . . . koi kam nahi karta hai. (indistinct) . . . (Nothing falls short. The Lord only gives.) Hum aise hi rehte hai. (indistinct) . . . (They stay here like this, they are all well educated people) . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, I see that are . . . (indistinct) No, I am not leaving. Whether Kṛṣṇa gives me fifty rupees or five million rupees, it does not make much difference, because I am in the line, because I am in the line. That's all. I may leave any time. No, no, that's all right. I may leave any time also. That is our purpose to do something. Unfortunately some things happened, and some court matters are going on. Court? Court matters, some, some lawsuits, etc., which I have filed which aggregate to the extent of about crore rupees or so. Hmm. Oh, I mean I'll get that much. That could be as good amount as you file . . . Where? Where? Your claim? Yes, yes. You have to . . . you have to pay so much stamping fee. No. The maximum stamp duty to be paid is fifteen thousand. Even if you've got a claim of fifteen crores , fifteen thousand is the maximum stamp duty you have to pay. You don't have to pay more. Fifteen thousand you have to pay? Yes. Anartheno nyaya rohita . . . in this age, Kali. (indistinct Hindi) . . . he owes me money, and I couldn't get my money back from him. *If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming after all it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then . . . vaqil (. . . lawyer) so on, so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali*-yuga. Anartheno nyaya rohita. Nyay milega hi nahi (You will not get justice) . . . (indistinct) A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some spaces, but even then you have to field yourself two times . . . (indistinct) . . . and remain in the . . . I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego . . . (indistinct) . . . what you're saying is hundred percent true. It's like that. Yes. And nowadays bribe also. Yeah. This is a must. *Fourth*-class, śūdra . . . (indistinct) . . . bribe. It is concerning one of the partners. . . . (indistinct) . . . another partner. (indistinct) . . . they demand it as a bribe also. (indistinct) . . . your partner like that? *Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali*-yuga. One thing is there: When I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything. That's a fact. And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get . . . If you're getting . . . I am liberated that very day. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat. Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to . . . I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things. Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced. Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the . . . *Advanced means such*-and-such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. I don't go. (break) . . . Prabhupada from 1923 to '37 We have got an appointment. We have got . . . (break) . . . somewhere. Saturday they close at . . . by 3 or 3:30, so I want to go before that. You can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty. Prasadam be ready by half past twelve, one (laughter) No, why bother? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prasāde sarva duḥkhānāṁ . (laughter) Hānir asyopajāyate. *I can tell you one practical. So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye ( SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod—Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal, the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is overflood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their . . . the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas , that is there. *Indra , there is indragop , one very small insect. It is also called indra, indragop , insect. And another Indra is the King of heaven. So śāstra says from this Indra to that indra , everyone is bound up by his karma . It includes all others, from this indra to that Indra. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Everyone is bound up by the resultant action of his karma . It cannot be changed. *So śāstra says don't try to change your karma*-phala . Better utilize that energy for becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you cannot change the destiny. That is not possible. Then shall I not endeavor for improvement of my economic . . . economic position? No. Why? I am, because destiny, whatever you have got your destiny, you'll get it. How shall I get it? Now suppose if you are put into some unwanted circumstances—you do not want it—you are forced to accept it. So similarly, as distressed condition comes upon you without your wanting, similarly, the position of happiness also will come , even you don't have to try for it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham (SB 1.5.18). Just like distressed condition, unhappiness, nobody wants, but it comes by force. Similarly, the conditional happiness of life . . . because everyone's life is mixed up with some distress or happiness. Nobody can say: "I am simply happy." That is not possible. Distress is there, but nobody wants distress. But it comes. So why happiness will not come? So don't waste your time in this way, because you cannot change this. This will come, automatically. You try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which you never tried. And that is recommended. *And there is a Bengali verse, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya (Prema*-vivarta): to take care of oneself by the fathers, that is available in every life. Because the ant is also taking care. That is not human society, but he's still taking care. A tiger also taking care. The small cubs, they're loitering on the . . . on the body of the lion, and he is feeling very nice. Even monkeys, I have seen. One monkey came in the window, and she had one small child, and somehow or other the child came inside my room. She, that outside monkey, became mad after it. So I had to take . . . (laughs) The affection is there. The ant, they're affectionate; the snake affectionate; the tiger affectionate; the man is affectionate. That is given. Otherwise, who will take care? So therefore the Vaiṣṇava kavi says, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: in every life you'll get father and mother and their protection; *kṛṣṇe guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei: but in every life you cannot get Kṛṣṇa and guru take care of. Because unless you get Kṛṣṇa and guru , then you are within the cycle of birth and death. And you get father and mother and their care, that is all right, but Kṛṣṇa*-guru does not come in that way. That you have to search out. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti . . . (CC Madhya 19.151). Because Kṛṣṇa- guru will give you the nucleus of devotional life. So kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei (Prema-vivarta). So actually, that is the fact. And I was going to tell about Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī was a great devotee, so he was thinking of taking sannyāsa . So he was contemplating that, "I shall now leave my home and take sannyāsa ." So in the meantime, his wife became pregnant. Then he thought that, "I was thinking like that. Anyway, this has happened, and if I take sannyāsa now, what people will say, that 'His wife is pregnant and he has taken sannyāsa , he has gone out of home.' " So he waited, the child was born, and the mother died. (laughing) Then he thought, "I do not know what Kṛṣṇa desires. Who will take care of this child, motherless child?" So that he was thinking very deeply. One lizard dropped before him, one small child lizard. Maane, (Means,) gave birth to a child this small, and the small lizard was staying, and immediately small ant came before the mouth of that small lizard, and he ate. Then Śrīdhara Svāmī thought, "The every arrangement is there. Why I am thinking of this and that?" Immediately went away. Actually, that is the position. The actual care is taken by Kṛṣṇa, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is taking care of everyone. *Best thing is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his term is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara*-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra . It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila . *So it is recommended in the human form of life first of all training as a brahmacārī , then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty*-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī , remain as brahmacārī; *and twenty*-five years to remain as gṛhastha , family man; *and twenty*-five years as vānaprastha; *and twenty-five years as sannyāsa . This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means.. vānaprastha is the preparation for sannyāsa , and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances, you have fallen into the material condition, but if we take, "This is all-in*-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra . It is circumstances. We have fallen into . . . under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving . . . trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution. As far as possible live, for we have got rooms like that. Live there and take little prasādam , and fully devote time how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. So it is authorized by the śāstras, pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . Therefore you'll find still. But now the things have changed that every holy places there are so many men retired. (break) (break) ". . . with my family member shall come to fight with me, so what shall I say, that I have to kill my nephew, I have to kill my brother, I have to kill my grandfather, this is the fight? No, no, I am not going to fight, let them all die." That is natural. So read it. "So how can I kill my brother and nephew and others, family members? So my bow is dropping." Go on. Yes, viparītāni . "I came to fight, to gain my kingdom, but I see the opposite." Viparītāni . "I'll not be able to enjoy my kingdom by killing them." That thing is said there. Go on. Ah, translation? No, no. You can go on. Translation. "I do not see how any good can come from killing my own kinsmen in this battle, nor can I, my dear Kṛṣṇa, desire any subsequent victory, kingdom or happiness." Naturally this will be. Then? Generally we improve our material condition just to become happy with relatives. When we construct a new house, we invite relatives. So they may come, they will say: "Oh, you have done very nice," and he is also pleased, "My relatives, they have seen." But "If all the relatives are killed, then how it will be possible for me to enjoy the kingdom?" Yeṣām arthe kāṅkṣitam rājyam . Bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Yes, bhogāḥ sukhāni ca . Then? Ta ime 'vasthitā yuddhe . "They, for whom I wanted this kingdom, they are in my path. I have to kill them. So what kind of fight is this?" Then? "I have to kill them, all the religious and family members." Then? Etān na hantum icchāmi . "I don't like. I don't want this fight." (laughs) Then? Ghnato 'pi madhusūdana. "Then let them kill me. I'll tolerate that. But I am not going to kill them." Then? *So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś . . . (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e . . . (BG 18.66): "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, you do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam , "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. (break) . . . a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and He is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. "What kind of God He is?" They have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this . . . In New York. New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that, "How it is good, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?" Although Arjuna was making his own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him *Gītā* and then inducing him to change his plan, "Go on, fight!" (end) Conversation A -- February 8, 1974, Vrndavana (poor recording) (Indian devotee reciting Sanskrit praṇaṁ - mantras ) (break) Nītyānanda Prabhu. Is he . . . Brahmacārī . Is he the one who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? Hmm? There's one Nītyānanda prabhu who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? When Puruṣottama lived with you also? One Nītyānanda? No, he lives in Orissa. Oh, I see. Near, Padampur. Oh. He has got a paper, Parmarthik? Siddhanta Bhakti. He is very sincere worker, brahmacārī . (break) (indistinct) . . . eschen . . . (has come . . .) Eschen, bhalo korechen. (Good that you have come.) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Besh bhalo. Apnar bhab o bhalo. (Good. Your feelings are very good.) Ami mone korlam apni ekbar asben. Sudhu sunei thaklam apni asben. Kintu kobe esechen seto khabar pai ni. Ajke yakhan Mathura theke ekjan amar bari esechilo Radha kunde. Se bollo, "Prabhupada ese gechen Vrndavane ebong kalke oto cole yabe." (I was thinking when you will come. I heard that you will come. But when you have finally come, I haven't got that news. Today one person from Mathura came to my place at Radha Kunda. He informed me that, "Prabhupāda has already arrived at Vrndavana and may leave tomorrow.") (break) I just purchased that Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa. Two parts. Really wonderful. Earlier I had read one book by Swami Shivananda of Hṛṣīkeśa . . . (indistinct) . . . about Krsna's philosophy, ethics. So after that, I read this really most appealing and wonderful . . . (indistinct) Our books are selling very nicely. We’re selling books for forty thousand rupees daily. That is the main standing. Our whole expenditure went there. Please cooperate with this movement. I am at your disposal. Thank you. At your command. So you can make me for the . . . (indistinct) . . . documents and all that. *(aside) Na, ami ota te thutu feli. (No, I spit in that pot.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . no botheration. Just have chanting. No botheration from Kali? That I . . . (indistinct) . . . but we cannot give you princely order. That is not possible. Simply just to maintain the body and soul together, that I can. But this is . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore I am little strict, that from constantly . . . (indistinct) . . . for nothings. And if there is no Deity money, then picture is there. Only the dress—put the picture. That is also Deity, is it not? Is it not? Yes. Or even in the mind. That is also Deity. Picture is also Deity. And one who cannot provide even picture, the mind is there. Just think of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma and prepare foodstuff, all kinds of foodstuff, and offer within the mind. You have not seen that picture? Yes. He was preparing khīr, and wanted to . . . (break) "Shall I give the Lord so hot? Let me see." Then he touched, his finger is burned. There is no khīr , (laughing) but the finger is burned. These are the instances. A devotee can offer, that serve Kṛṣṇa, so many ways, so many ways. But we should try to serve Kṛṣṇa as gorgeously as possible. But if you have no means, then other things also. Not that, "We have to do it this way." No. The Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, have got their temple. I expected that you must have, Americans . . . (indistinct) . . . but if it is not possible, then it is patraṁ puṣpaṁ with picture, that's all. There is no question of stoppage. Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Devotional service cannot be stopped in any circumstances. (Cross talk from other audio recording fades in and out until end). So my first business is to see that somehow or other the temple is complete. Then we shall see whether there is Deity or there is dress. If in the meantime it is possible, you do. And if there is no means, then you cannot take from the construction. This is my point. Is that clear? Yes. And so far money is concerned, whatever money is there, then you'll spend everything for temple, not for other things. Therefore I am trying to minimize as much as possible, and necessity must be there. Otherwise that money is for this Vṛndāvana, the construction and maintenance. Now I want to finish this. So do like that. Is that all right? Yes. Finish the construction at any cost. Your wood has come? Wood has come. Yes. Ah, so finish the temple, and I think iron will come by tomorrow or day after tomorrow. In the meantime, you'll fix up the wood and whatever iron. Yes. You bring it. Keep account whatever Deity collection is there. Yes. That's all. That money is there? Yes. Twenty thousand, and another ten will come when it is sent. Do it very cautiously, because after all, we are beggar. That you should consider. But if somebody comes forward, that is our business—to induce others, moneyed man. Let his money be spent. That we are doing actually. But this money what I have brought or what I have given at Bombay, this about forty lakhs of rupees. What I have brought from USA, that is my book. That is my . . . we can say, that writing book at night and inducing these devotees: go and sell, go and sell, go and sell. In this way it is going on. This is not contribution. George has given contribution, but that is house. But nobody gives us money for it. And here also you don't get any big contribution, except that Birla has contributed. Mr. Turani has given four lakhs . Given? He's given fifty thousand, and now he'll give the balances. That's all right. So here we can . . . from Bombay do that. . . . (indistinct) But all this money, what I have brought from USA, I have sent about six lakhs for Māyāpur, and about fifteen lakhs . . . Bombay. Bombay. And this is also about nine lakhs . So? Thirty lakhs . Thirty lakhs of rupees. And others, I estimate forty lakhs . Anyway . . . Yes, because you put some money in a trust in America. Yes, yes. So there is the other ten. Ten lakhs . Yes. Ten lakhs I have put for maintenance. So why there is no work today? They're not working? Yes, they're working. Working? So finish in this way. And it is not possible to bring money any more. If possible, I'll bring. But it has given me too much strain. We cannot expect it . . . (indistinct) Yes. Too much strain. In Bombay, that, you know, how telephone after telephone, and this Mrs. Nair, this attorneys, this, that, all. That was amazing. You said that was the biggest battle . . . Yes. . . . of all. Overnight it if we want to payment. Immediately make a call, I take fifty, thirty thousand. Give immediately. Every night, we were going from early in the morning 'till midnight, every day practically, with meetings. (break) *Now, please try to save me from all this strain. Whatever is done, done. Try to maintain it. And what is there? For Vṛndāvana, there is no anxiety. A little roti and rice, you'll be able to offer to Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. There will be no difficulty. Somehow or other finish the temple and install the Deity. If it is not possible install Deity, you have got this picture there. I think we will make one set of clothes. Do whatever you . . . like that yes. So why so gorgeous? If you are short of money, the principle should be that we should request somebody; he should supply. This temple construction, we are taking responsibility. The Gosvāmīs did not do that. Mānsiṅgh took. Yes. They, one big man came that way. So many big men come. So they offer service, "What can I do?" So they prescribe according to his position. When King Mānsiṅgh came, "Yes, you can construct a very nice temple. You have got money." So they constructed. It is not that Rūpa Gosvāmī had to collect money and see the supervision. The man who came to give some service according to his position, he said: "All right, you can construct a nice temple." So he constructed that temple. (Break) We have to see how far progress is made. So far, there is no progress. What I left at that . . . The sanctioning of the . . . (indistinct) *No progress has been made. What I left, it is . . . (break) Just to make these things more clear: the stress should be given to complete the temple as soon as possible. When the temple is complete, then ask for the Deity. Fifteen thousand is already paid, and that will be . . . balance will be paid. Now, dress, if there is money, you'll make His dress ten thousand cost. But if there is no money, then ordinary cloth will be sufficient. This is clear*-cut program. Is that all right? Now go. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- February 8, 1974, Vrndavana (poor recording) (Indian devotee reciting Sanskrit praṇaṁ - mantras ) (break) Nītyānanda Prabhu. Is he . . . Brahmacārī . Is he the one who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? Hmm? There's one Nītyānanda prabhu who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? When Puruṣottama lived with you also? One Nītyānanda? No, he lives in Orissa. Oh, I see. Near, Padampur. Oh. He has got a paper, Parmarthik? Siddhanta Bhakti. He is very sincere worker, brahmacārī . (break) (indistinct) . . . eschen . . . (has come . . .) Eschen, bhalo korechen. (Good that you have come.) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Besh bhalo. Apnar bhab o bhalo. (Good. Your feelings are very good.) Ami mone korlam apni ekbar asben. Sudhu sunei thaklam apni asben. Kintu kobe esechen seto khabar pai ni. Ajke yakhan Mathura theke ekjan amar bari esechilo Radha kunde. Se bollo, "Prabhupada ese gechen Vrndavane ebong kalke oto cole yabe." (I was thinking when you will come. I heard that you will come. But when you have finally come, I haven't got that news. Today one person from Mathura came to my place at Radha Kunda. He informed me that, "Prabhupāda has already arrived at Vrndavana and may leave tomorrow.") (break) I just purchased that Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa. Two parts. Really wonderful. Earlier I had read one book by Swami Shivananda of Hṛṣīkeśa . . . (indistinct) . . . about Krsna's philosophy, ethics. So after that, I read this really most appealing and wonderful . . . (indistinct) Our books are selling very nicely. We’re selling books for forty thousand rupees daily. That is the main standing. Our whole expenditure went there. Please cooperate with this movement. I am at your disposal. Thank you. At your command. So you can make me for the . . . (indistinct) . . . documents and all that. *(aside) Na, ami ota te thutu feli. (No, I spit in that pot.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . no botheration. Just have chanting. No botheration from Kali? That I . . . (indistinct) . . . but we cannot give you princely order. That is not possible. Simply just to maintain the body and soul together, that I can. But this is . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore I am little strict, that from constantly . . . (indistinct) . . . for nothings. And if there is no Deity money, then picture is there. Only the dress—put the picture. That is also Deity, is it not? Is it not? Yes. Or even in the mind. That is also Deity. Picture is also Deity. And one who cannot provide even picture, the mind is there. Just think of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma and prepare foodstuff, all kinds of foodstuff, and offer within the mind. You have not seen that picture? Yes. He was preparing khīr, and wanted to . . . (break) "Shall I give the Lord so hot? Let me see." Then he touched, his finger is burned. There is no khīr , (laughing) but the finger is burned. These are the instances. A devotee can offer, that serve Kṛṣṇa, so many ways, so many ways. But we should try to serve Kṛṣṇa as gorgeously as possible. But if you have no means, then other things also. Not that, "We have to do it this way." No. The Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, have got their temple. I expected that you must have, Americans . . . (indistinct) . . . but if it is not possible, then it is patraṁ puṣpaṁ with picture, that's all. There is no question of stoppage. Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Devotional service cannot be stopped in any circumstances. (Cross talk from other audio recording fades in and out until end). So my first business is to see that somehow or other the temple is complete. Then we shall see whether there is Deity or there is dress. If in the meantime it is possible, you do. And if there is no means, then you cannot take from the construction. This is my point. Is that clear? Yes. And so far money is concerned, whatever money is there, then you'll spend everything for temple, not for other things. Therefore I am trying to minimize as much as possible, and necessity must be there. Otherwise that money is for this Vṛndāvana, the construction and maintenance. Now I want to finish this. So do like that. Is that all right? Yes. Finish the construction at any cost. Your wood has come? Wood has come. Yes. Ah, so finish the temple, and I think iron will come by tomorrow or day after tomorrow. In the meantime, you'll fix up the wood and whatever iron. Yes. You bring it. Keep account whatever Deity collection is there. Yes. That's all. That money is there? Yes. Twenty thousand, and another ten will come when it is sent. Do it very cautiously, because after all, we are beggar. That you should consider. But if somebody comes forward, that is our business—to induce others, moneyed man. Let his money be spent. That we are doing actually. But this money what I have brought or what I have given at Bombay, this about forty lakhs of rupees. What I have brought from USA, that is my book. That is my . . . we can say, that writing book at night and inducing these devotees: go and sell, go and sell, go and sell. In this way it is going on. This is not contribution. George has given contribution, but that is house. But nobody gives us money for it. And here also you don't get any big contribution, except that Birla has contributed. Mr. Turani has given four lakhs . Given? He's given fifty thousand, and now he'll give the balances. That's all right. So here we can . . . from Bombay do that. . . . (indistinct) But all this money, what I have brought from USA, I have sent about six lakhs for Māyāpur, and about fifteen lakhs . . . Bombay. Bombay. And this is also about nine lakhs . So? Thirty lakhs . Thirty lakhs of rupees. And others, I estimate forty lakhs . Anyway . . . Yes, because you put some money in a trust in America. Yes, yes. So there is the other ten. Ten lakhs . Yes. Ten lakhs I have put for maintenance. So why there is no work today? They're not working? Yes, they're working. Working? So finish in this way. And it is not possible to bring money any more. If possible, I'll bring. But it has given me too much strain. We cannot expect it . . . (indistinct) Yes. Too much strain. In Bombay, that, you know, how telephone after telephone, and this Mrs. Nair, this attorneys, this, that, all. That was amazing. You said that was the biggest battle . . . Yes. . . . of all. Overnight it if we want to payment. Immediately make a call, I take fifty, thirty thousand. Give immediately. Every night, we were going from early in the morning 'till midnight, every day practically, with meetings. (break) *Now, please try to save me from all this strain. Whatever is done, done. Try to maintain it. And what is there? For Vṛndāvana, there is no anxiety. A little roti and rice, you'll be able to offer to Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. There will be no difficulty. Somehow or other finish the temple and install the Deity. If it is not possible install Deity, you have got this picture there. I think we will make one set of clothes. Do whatever you . . . like that yes. So why so gorgeous? If you are short of money, the principle should be that we should request somebody; he should supply. This temple construction, we are taking responsibility. The Gosvāmīs did not do that. Mānsiṅgh took. Yes. They, one big man came that way. So many big men come. So they offer service, "What can I do?" So they prescribe according to his position. When King Mānsiṅgh came, "Yes, you can construct a very nice temple. You have got money." So they constructed. It is not that Rūpa Gosvāmī had to collect money and see the supervision. The man who came to give some service according to his position, he said: "All right, you can construct a nice temple." So he constructed that temple. (Break) We have to see how far progress is made. So far, there is no progress. What I left at that . . . The sanctioning of the . . . (indistinct) *No progress has been made. What I left, it is . . . (break) Just to make these things more clear: the stress should be given to complete the temple as soon as possible. When the temple is complete, then ask for the Deity. Fifteen thousand is already paid, and that will be . . . balance will be paid. Now, dress, if there is money, you'll make His dress ten thousand cost. But if there is no money, then ordinary cloth will be sufficient. This is clear*-cut program. Is that all right? Now go. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- February 9, 1974, Vrndavana Seven hundred? . . . (indistinct) Oh. On the other side of . . . (indistinct) . . . I think it crosses . . . In USA . . . (break) Ek ghanta me . . . (indistinct) (In one hour or so) . . . (indistinct) Hmm. Ji ha. (Okay.) Even car, the roads are so big. Ah, bus service is all right? Nahi, wo to transportation to bahut hi acchi hai USA me. Ek Greyhound motorcycle hai, Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, transportation is very nice in the USA. There is one Greyhound motorcycle of the Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) I don't think these people have seen the ekka here, have you? Huh? Have you seen the ekka? I think it is now obsolete. Obsolete now. I don't see it now. Train? No . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Just like . . . (indistinct) The ekka had like this . . . There is a platform like this. It moves on the roof of the house. (laughter) Unka desh me abhi wo ho gaya na, helicopter. (Now, in their country they have helicopters.) Helicopter. Wo chat pe. (On the roof.) (break) . . . New York, goes to Los Angeles and then to Honolulu, then Tokyo, then Hong Kong, then New Delhi . . . no. Hong Kong to Bangkok, Bangkok to New Delhi, New Delhi to Karachi, Karachi to Beirut, then, I think, London, then again New York. One. One round. Usi ka ticket hum log kharidte hai. (We buy tickets for that only.) One round. To beech me stoppage . . . (So is there a stoppage in between) . . . (break) (laughter) (indistinct Hindi) . . . Aj kal restriction . . . (Nowadays there is restriction . . .) (laughing) (break) Fifty crores . Huh? More than that. (laughter) More than that? Why not? *Not fifty crores . Fifty*-five lakhs . *Fifty*-five lakhs . Oh. This George Harrison, he came here. George Harrison? He has donated in cash or that building? Not that building. That building. He has purchased for me. Ācchā . It is named Bhaktivedanta Manor. Ācchā . Guest (2) (Indian man): Bhaktivedanta . . .? Manor. Manor. He contributed for this book $19,000. Practically he gave starting. Yes. No. Starting was that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I printed. Then I printed this book. Then by selling this book, this book, that book, like that. He is very good boy. He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chanting? Yes. Sab chod diya? (He left everything?) Nahi, wo apna business chal raha hai. (No, he is doing his business.) Now what is the latest record? "Kṛṣṇa, I miss You. Kṛṣṇa, where are You?" The song? There was . . . Song? Yes, song. His song, as soon as one record is published, then millions is sold. Then millions. I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right . . . perfect method of prachār . No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan? Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda what can I do for him." He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted. He's also attracted. Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya? Vaijayanti Mala. Huh? Vaijayanti Mala. Vaijayanti. Vaijayanti Mala. She's a very famous actress. She's very nice girl, actually . . . (indistinct) They are my sister, my younger sister. Younger sister. Dekhiye bhai saheb jaisa bhajan karta hai ap bhi . . . (Perform bhajan just like your brother) . . . (break) ISKCON Hotel. Government se do crore rupaya manga hai. (I have requested the government for two crore rupees.) Government loan, loan? Indian government se? Kaha ka? (From the Indian government? From where?) Loan. Here Indian government. (break) My eldest son was born in 1921. I was born in 1917. Seventeen . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) Mayavadi thode hi na hu prabhuji. (I am not a mayāvādi prabhuji.) Mayavadi to Krishna hote hai so hum hote hai. (Kṛṣṇa is a mayāvādi so we are too.) *Mayavadi ka ashray le rahe hai. Huh? Nahi, ye swayam Krishna hai, wo mayadhisha hai. Mayavadi nahi, mayadhisha. (Taking shelter of mayāvādis. Huh? No, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, He is māyādhīśa. Not mayāvādi, māyādhīśa.) (break) . . . Jo Krishna ko bhul gaya, to Krishna kehte hai mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ. Krishna ko bhul jana . . . (One who has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ (BG 15.15). Forgetting Kṛṣṇa) . . . (break) . . . transcendental . . . every part. Purana tuta*-futa, ye sab kuch nahi, sab transcendental. Aisa ye kutta, suar, jo kuch hai sab transcendental. Idhar koi kharab chiz nahi. (Old and broken, there is nothing like that, all this is transcendental. Even these dogs, pigs, everything is transcendental. There is no bad thing here.) (break) . . . Vrindavan chodne ko nahi chahta . . . (indistinct) . . . humara jo quarter hai, humara jo baithne ka sitting room, isse dedh guna aur humara bathroom iska three-fourth. Aur bedroom, wo bhi half samajh lijiye. Half nahi, half se zyada. Ye sab . . . (Do not want to leave Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . our quarter, the sitting room, that is one and a half times bigger than this and our bathroom is three-fourth of this. And the bedroom, that is also half. Not half, a little more than half. All this) . . . (break) (break) . . . jisme ke itne hazaro hazaro souls ka career involve ho wo kisi ek . . . (where thousands and thousands of souls' career is involved, for one) . . . (break) Humare shri gurudev kaha karte the, bade param pandit the . . . (Our respected gurudev used to say, he was a big pandit) . . . (break) (break) . . . trustees. Because he contributes. He contributes, and that boy, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he also contributes. (break) (laughter) You are not religious, huh? (laughter) (break) *. . . stay at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa in Puruṣottama Gosvāmī's old house, in Rādhā-Rāmaṇa. Lately I'm staying at . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja's āśrama . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) So what is the condition of the work? Finished? Not finished. (break) He requires so many things. Yes. Whether he is connected. Encourage him to the Deity worship at Yamunā. What can we do? (pause) So wood has come? Yes. So they're arranging for roofing? Any for roofing? No, this is for scaffolding. Actually, also some wood planks for the roof to be casted with the steel. So that plank wood has also come, and all these for casting, uh, for scaffolding has also come. And Guṇārṇava spoke to Tejiyas on the telephone, and he said that within a few days the steel would be ready. So I'm also going to go to Delhi the day after tomorrow and check on the steel, and I think we'll bring it down and start. (break) . . . (indistinct) Yes. . . . (indistinct) Yes, we'll do that. I'll do that. (break) . . . so one can learn Deity worship in Vṛndāvana. I also will learn that Deity worship. Los Angeles they are doing very nice. Hmm. (indistinct) . . . three men. Hmm. That's nice, that's nice. Three men at the time at ārati . I was wondering. In Imlitala they do one man, but I was thinking three is very . . . at that JK temple in Kanpur, three men. That's nice. Three men . . . (indistinct) Very nice. (break) Profusely flowers, they do it. Los Angeles is most gorgeous, temple. We are to do like that here in Vṛndāvana. Hmm. *Very gorgeous. All decorated, chandeliers . . . (indistinct) . . . gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas . Keep at least well*-trained devotees, at least twelve. And for all that comfortable life . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you do not know, that money. (break) Some people make the . . . cut the coat to fit the pocket. Huh? Cut the coat to fit the pocket. That's right. Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice. *Is that very good. (break) . . . that is good . . . one who desires well*-being . . . Yes. . . . he is called sūrya . Yes. So he desires. Yes. And he is not motivated. No. He is very good, good. (break) Kapoor also is increasing more and more, very much favorable. Sat Bisanchand also is favorable. Is nice. Influential man he is? Somewhat influential, but . . . (break) *. . . that, but now from Rādhā*-Dāmodara Temple he cannot take anything. No. So how he will maintain? I don't know. He must have some money. And what Panchu is doing? Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much. How he has left for some service. Maybe. I can inquire. No. There is no . . . why you should go? Let them do their own work. Yes. I can sweep over here? Huh? Yes. Why not? Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the śevaite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment . . . But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed. Yes. Printed receipt. Yes. Printed form. So I should again pay to Gaurachand Gosvāmī? I think so. This, this, this . . . (indistinct) . . . complete. But that . . . that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon. Yes. Next time I, when I come . . . Come, it, roof should be ready. . . . I want to see that it is, roof is complete, and then we begin. So another thing: should I take rates for the marble from others, or we shall accept this? I've already taken rates, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Oh. And now this man, Narayan Das, says that yesterday they said that it did . . . the rates did not include people to put the marble in. It did not include laborers to install. No, no. They have . . . they have to order this, because . . . (indistinct) . . . include everything. If it includes, it is a good rate. Ah. *But in, in Makrana I got the rate seven*-fifty, eight rupees. Seven, seven-fifty, eight for dungri , that kind. And about two-fifty to three extra for labor. So if they charge eight or seven, including labor and delivery and polishing, it is good rate, but if it is just delivery, it is not a good rate. So, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . said that he'll send the contract form. So we have to see. If it does not include the delivery and the polishing . . . (indistinct) . . . must include delivery, polishing, everything. If it does, it's good rate. Also this black marble, I've gotten the price in Makrana four, four rupees and fifty paisa. That is excluding labor. Yes. So if they can do it for five, it is good rate. Yes. But if they do it five for just the marble, it is not good rate. No, no. That is not good. It is included everything. That I was informed by . . . Then it's . . . then it is good. It is very good for us. Then we shall accept. Oh, yes. It is good quotation. But he is not willing to do the bank guarantee. Eh? The pound, the huṇḍa , what is it called? huṇḍi . huṇḍi . No. That we shall . . . he is not bringing all the goods at a time. Oh. Partially. We have to pay. All right. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want you to feel that we will do this, and this work, and spend frugally and thrifty. Very frugally. You have already become very unfrugal. I am agitated that you are anxious about it, because yes, I commit many mistakes, no doubt. So, that's all right. Don't commit more, that's all. Yes. But there's also some mistakes I have not committed. There's some very good things that have happened. That's all right. Don't commit mistake. Yes. Devotee should not commit mistake. He's above it. But I want you to feel . . . No. It is my business to worry. Yes, yes. You are the best father I have. My father spared the rod. He spoiled me. Yes. And you are not doing. But don't take, because I do not show the stick, don't take advantage of it. You have shown the stick, verbally. Now do it nicely. Keep me less anxiety. I want to do. It is natural when money is misspent, one who brings money he thinks this. Yes. I take so much trouble, and then . . . that is, that is always . . . (indistinct) Yes. I also would feel that way. So the money raised for the other business, that should be spent for that purpose. Yes. And the temple money . . . so you'll go to the bank tomorrow? Yes? Yes. Which bank he has dispatched the 50,000? Yes, Syndicate. But they have not yet informed. How is that? He said he has already sent. He has telegrammed. Who? Girirāja has telegrammed. Ah. But the bank has not informed. Guṇārṇava is checking today. Telegrammed the money? Girirāja has telegrammed myself, directly . . . Oh. . . . that he has sent it. When he has sent it? Telegrammed yesterday . . . day before yesterday, evening. Day before yesterday. Evening. Evening. Late evening. So they must have received the money by today. Yes. Guṇārṇava is checking. (end) Conversation -- February 9, 1974, Vrndavana Seven hundred? . . . (indistinct) Oh. On the other side of . . . (indistinct) . . . I think it crosses . . . In USA . . . (break) Ek ghanta me . . . (indistinct) (In one hour or so) . . . (indistinct) Hmm. Ji ha. (Okay.) Even car, the roads are so big. Ah, bus service is all right? Nahi, wo to transportation to bahut hi acchi hai USA me. Ek Greyhound motorcycle hai, Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, transportation is very nice in the USA. There is one Greyhound motorcycle of the Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) I don't think these people have seen the ekka here, have you? Huh? Have you seen the ekka? I think it is now obsolete. Obsolete now. I don't see it now. Train? No . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Just like . . . (indistinct) The ekka had like this . . . There is a platform like this. It moves on the roof of the house. (laughter) Unka desh me abhi wo ho gaya na, helicopter. (Now, in their country they have helicopters.) Helicopter. Wo chat pe. (On the roof.) (break) . . . New York, goes to Los Angeles and then to Honolulu, then Tokyo, then Hong Kong, then New Delhi . . . no. Hong Kong to Bangkok, Bangkok to New Delhi, New Delhi to Karachi, Karachi to Beirut, then, I think, London, then again New York. One. One round. Usi ka ticket hum log kharidte hai. (We buy tickets for that only.) One round. To beech me stoppage . . . (So is there a stoppage in between) . . . (break) (laughter) (indistinct Hindi) . . . Aj kal restriction . . . (Nowadays there is restriction . . .) (laughing) (break) Fifty crores . Huh? More than that. (laughter) More than that? Why not? *Not fifty crores . Fifty*-five lakhs . *Fifty*-five lakhs . Oh. This George Harrison, he came here. George Harrison? He has donated in cash or that building? Not that building. That building. He has purchased for me. Ācchā . It is named Bhaktivedanta Manor. Ācchā . Guest (2) (Indian man): Bhaktivedanta . . .? Manor. Manor. He contributed for this book $19,000. Practically he gave starting. Yes. No. Starting was that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I printed. Then I printed this book. Then by selling this book, this book, that book, like that. He is very good boy. He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chanting? Yes. Sab chod diya? (He left everything?) Nahi, wo apna business chal raha hai. (No, he is doing his business.) Now what is the latest record? "Kṛṣṇa, I miss You. Kṛṣṇa, where are You?" The song? There was . . . Song? Yes, song. His song, as soon as one record is published, then millions is sold. Then millions. I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right . . . perfect method of prachār . No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan? Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda what can I do for him." He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted. He's also attracted. Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya? Vaijayanti Mala. Huh? Vaijayanti Mala. Vaijayanti. Vaijayanti Mala. She's a very famous actress. She's very nice girl, actually . . . (indistinct) They are my sister, my younger sister. Younger sister. Dekhiye bhai saheb jaisa bhajan karta hai ap bhi . . . (Perform bhajan just like your brother) . . . (break) ISKCON Hotel. Government se do crore rupaya manga hai. (I have requested the government for two crore rupees.) Government loan, loan? Indian government se? Kaha ka? (From the Indian government? From where?) Loan. Here Indian government. (break) My eldest son was born in 1921. I was born in 1917. Seventeen . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) Mayavadi thode hi na hu prabhuji. (I am not a mayāvādi prabhuji.) Mayavadi to Krishna hote hai so hum hote hai. (Kṛṣṇa is a mayāvādi so we are too.) *Mayavadi ka ashray le rahe hai. Huh? Nahi, ye swayam Krishna hai, wo mayadhisha hai. Mayavadi nahi, mayadhisha. (Taking shelter of mayāvādis. Huh? No, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, He is māyādhīśa. Not mayāvādi, māyādhīśa.) (break) . . . Jo Krishna ko bhul gaya, to Krishna kehte hai mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ. Krishna ko bhul jana . . . (One who has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ (BG 15.15). Forgetting Kṛṣṇa) . . . (break) . . . transcendental . . . every part. Purana tuta*-futa, ye sab kuch nahi, sab transcendental. Aisa ye kutta, suar, jo kuch hai sab transcendental. Idhar koi kharab chiz nahi. (Old and broken, there is nothing like that, all this is transcendental. Even these dogs, pigs, everything is transcendental. There is no bad thing here.) (break) . . . Vrindavan chodne ko nahi chahta . . . (indistinct) . . . humara jo quarter hai, humara jo baithne ka sitting room, isse dedh guna aur humara bathroom iska three-fourth. Aur bedroom, wo bhi half samajh lijiye. Half nahi, half se zyada. Ye sab . . . (Do not want to leave Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . our quarter, the sitting room, that is one and a half times bigger than this and our bathroom is three-fourth of this. And the bedroom, that is also half. Not half, a little more than half. All this) . . . (break) (break) . . . jisme ke itne hazaro hazaro souls ka career involve ho wo kisi ek . . . (where thousands and thousands of souls' career is involved, for one) . . . (break) Humare shri gurudev kaha karte the, bade param pandit the . . . (Our respected gurudev used to say, he was a big pandit) . . . (break) (break) . . . trustees. Because he contributes. He contributes, and that boy, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he also contributes. (break) (laughter) You are not religious, huh? (laughter) (break) *. . . stay at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa in Puruṣottama Gosvāmī's old house, in Rādhā-Rāmaṇa. Lately I'm staying at . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja's āśrama . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) So what is the condition of the work? Finished? Not finished. (break) He requires so many things. Yes. Whether he is connected. Encourage him to the Deity worship at Yamunā. What can we do? (pause) So wood has come? Yes. So they're arranging for roofing? Any for roofing? No, this is for scaffolding. Actually, also some wood planks for the roof to be casted with the steel. So that plank wood has also come, and all these for casting, uh, for scaffolding has also come. And Guṇārṇava spoke to Tejiyas on the telephone, and he said that within a few days the steel would be ready. So I'm also going to go to Delhi the day after tomorrow and check on the steel, and I think we'll bring it down and start. (break) . . . (indistinct) Yes. . . . (indistinct) Yes, we'll do that. I'll do that. (break) . . . so one can learn Deity worship in Vṛndāvana. I also will learn that Deity worship. Los Angeles they are doing very nice. Hmm. (indistinct) . . . three men. Hmm. That's nice, that's nice. Three men at the time at ārati . I was wondering. In Imlitala they do one man, but I was thinking three is very . . . at that JK temple in Kanpur, three men. That's nice. Three men . . . (indistinct) Very nice. (break) Profusely flowers, they do it. Los Angeles is most gorgeous, temple. We are to do like that here in Vṛndāvana. Hmm. *Very gorgeous. All decorated, chandeliers . . . (indistinct) . . . gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas . Keep at least well*-trained devotees, at least twelve. And for all that comfortable life . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you do not know, that money. (break) Some people make the . . . cut the coat to fit the pocket. Huh? Cut the coat to fit the pocket. That's right. Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice. *Is that very good. (break) . . . that is good . . . one who desires well*-being . . . Yes. . . . he is called sūrya . Yes. So he desires. Yes. And he is not motivated. No. He is very good, good. (break) Kapoor also is increasing more and more, very much favorable. Sat Bisanchand also is favorable. Is nice. Influential man he is? Somewhat influential, but . . . (break) *. . . that, but now from Rādhā*-Dāmodara Temple he cannot take anything. No. So how he will maintain? I don't know. He must have some money. And what Panchu is doing? Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much. How he has left for some service. Maybe. I can inquire. No. There is no . . . why you should go? Let them do their own work. Yes. I can sweep over here? Huh? Yes. Why not? Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the śevaite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment . . . But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed. Yes. Printed receipt. Yes. Printed form. So I should again pay to Gaurachand Gosvāmī? I think so. This, this, this . . . (indistinct) . . . complete. But that . . . that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon. Yes. Next time I, when I come . . . Come, it, roof should be ready. . . . I want to see that it is, roof is complete, and then we begin. So another thing: should I take rates for the marble from others, or we shall accept this? I've already taken rates, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Oh. And now this man, Narayan Das, says that yesterday they said that it did . . . the rates did not include people to put the marble in. It did not include laborers to install. No, no. They have . . . they have to order this, because . . . (indistinct) . . . include everything. If it includes, it is a good rate. Ah. *But in, in Makrana I got the rate seven*-fifty, eight rupees. Seven, seven-fifty, eight for dungri , that kind. And about two-fifty to three extra for labor. So if they charge eight or seven, including labor and delivery and polishing, it is good rate, but if it is just delivery, it is not a good rate. So, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . said that he'll send the contract form. So we have to see. If it does not include the delivery and the polishing . . . (indistinct) . . . must include delivery, polishing, everything. If it does, it's good rate. Also this black marble, I've gotten the price in Makrana four, four rupees and fifty paisa. That is excluding labor. Yes. So if they can do it for five, it is good rate. Yes. But if they do it five for just the marble, it is not good rate. No, no. That is not good. It is included everything. That I was informed by . . . Then it's . . . then it is good. It is very good for us. Then we shall accept. Oh, yes. It is good quotation. But he is not willing to do the bank guarantee. Eh? The pound, the huṇḍa , what is it called? huṇḍi . huṇḍi . No. That we shall . . . he is not bringing all the goods at a time. Oh. Partially. We have to pay. All right. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want you to feel that we will do this, and this work, and spend frugally and thrifty. Very frugally. You have already become very unfrugal. I am agitated that you are anxious about it, because yes, I commit many mistakes, no doubt. So, that's all right. Don't commit more, that's all. Yes. But there's also some mistakes I have not committed. There's some very good things that have happened. That's all right. Don't commit mistake. Yes. Devotee should not commit mistake. He's above it. But I want you to feel . . . No. It is my business to worry. Yes, yes. You are the best father I have. My father spared the rod. He spoiled me. Yes. And you are not doing. But don't take, because I do not show the stick, don't take advantage of it. You have shown the stick, verbally. Now do it nicely. Keep me less anxiety. I want to do. It is natural when money is misspent, one who brings money he thinks this. Yes. I take so much trouble, and then . . . that is, that is always . . . (indistinct) Yes. I also would feel that way. So the money raised for the other business, that should be spent for that purpose. Yes. And the temple money . . . so you'll go to the bank tomorrow? Yes? Yes. Which bank he has dispatched the 50,000? Yes, Syndicate. But they have not yet informed. How is that? He said he has already sent. He has telegrammed. Who? Girirāja has telegrammed. Ah. But the bank has not informed. Guṇārṇava is checking today. Telegrammed the money? Girirāja has telegrammed myself, directly . . . Oh. . . . that he has sent it. When he has sent it? Telegrammed yesterday . . . day before yesterday, evening. Day before yesterday. Evening. Evening. Late evening. So they must have received the money by today. Yes. Guṇārṇava is checking. (end) Conversation A -- February 13, 1974, Vrndavana (no audio, first part) I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Huh? I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. How many of you went? *Most everyone, about twenty*-five. . . . (indistinct) (audio starts) *At first they went to the Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana*-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi , and then I left, at Madana-mohana. Dr. Kapoor came this morning? No. No? All these boys and girls all went to sleep for a few minutes. (to guest) Thank you. You have come from where? Just now from the Hanumān Mandir , just down the road there, not far. But I'm . . . we're all from America. Here you are remaining there? We are there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Mohan?, a guesthouse just down to the right. Where is . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . he's delivering fruits and flowers. Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli. Nim Babari? Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask . . . he requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana , if you . . . if you wish. Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible? I . . . I don't know. I'm just . . . he asked me to come and request it, so . . . We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested. There are thirty Westerners there. Huh? There are about thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana . Thirty Westerners? Yes, that's right. Oh. That, I have no objection, we can go,. . . (indistinct) . . . those are organizing. You are also staying? Yes. The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask. Do you have any . . . any other questions? No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment. You don't have to explain your presence you are most welcome. Thank you. Where is the Deity? Taking on saṅkīrtana . You get time, you can . . . Saṅkīrtana , when you're ready. She (second woman guest) was attending all the lectures at the paṇḍāl in Delhi. Yes, I have seen her. And Philadelphia also. So, you understand our philosophy? Understand . . .? Our philosophy? Philosophy. Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities. Where? Philadelphia. Oh. And we do the āratik and read all your books. Which book? *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, Lord Caitanya, *Kṛṣṇa Book* , and obviously . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke , with all the philosophers, and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them or . . . (indistinct) Different schools of philosophy. Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin. Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good. They tried, but they weren't . . . they weren't God conscious. They were recording in their own poor? life . . . (indistinct) . . . the truth. The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure . . . figure it out with their mind. *They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, in the Western countries, they have . . . lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider this body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize . . . (indistinct) . . . if your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata . . . Śrīmad Bhāgavata , it is said that yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13): "Anyone, considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." (to guests) What is your philosophy? You don't take this body as the self? I . . . oh, no. You? No. Very good. So who is bringing my bedding? Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara? I don't know. I've got the keys to that room also. Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements. (to guests) So, what is your philosophy? My philosophy? Yes. The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān , is the one absolute existence, but it has a delusive power, whereby . . . Who is that got delusive power? God, or . . . God? . . . the māyā , the māyā of God makes . . . makes a man identify himself with his body. But it is . . . that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes . . . it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are . . . he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace. By God's grace, what happens? One cannot . . . one achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's . . . one no longer identifies himself with his body. So result of loving God, what it is? Without loving God? No. Result. Result is what? Of loving God? Yes. What will come? Is union with God. Union with God. What is that union? What is union? Union, I think it . . . it's called yoga , or it's samādhi . I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read. Samadhi is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity? What is the form of unity? Yes. I . . . my understanding is that, that, er, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving Beyond form. . . . through loving the form of God . . . it has form and yet it's formless. It's both . . . has form and formless. What is that formlessness, and what is that form? That I can't say. What do I know about these things? (laughs) My own knowledge is just very slight. You are not learning there, where you are staying? I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja . . . this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest. But love, if you have no form, where to love? The air? You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti , you love the form of God. But you said it's formless. Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the . . . How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy? You can't love the formless, it's true. Then. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love? He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me. What does he teach? He said . . . He teaches form? He says that . . . yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānjī. Who is Hanumān? Hanumān is the breath of Rāma. Huh? *The breath of Rāma, śvāsa . Rāma*-ke-śvāsa , breath of Rāma. Breath? The breath. Hanumān was the . . . Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?" and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve You." That's so nonsense. Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know . . . When you remember who you are, you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela , his disciple, "I'm Nam Karoli." Nim Karoli. Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta , we're His servant. Yes, that's also true. It's a fact. When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta . . . we should follow in his footsteps, "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee." Very humble. Then we can make advancement (CC Madhya 13.80). Mahārāja is teaching—you asked his teaching—these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve . . . How you can serve whole universe? I beg your pardon. How you can serve whole universe? How can you serve the whole universe? Yes. You love the beings that you find yourself . . . You love? To whom you love? Whoever you're with. Huh? Whatever, whatever . . . That is . . . suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression? Well, certainly every being in the universe is a part of me. (indistinct) . . . you can place your love to a particular person or particular community. Yes. Does it mean you love the whole universe? No. Just like, just like nationalism. You are American? Yes. So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe? If I love America? Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows. Ācchā . Why? Through ignorance. Men . . . Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance? You do your best. If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love. That's true, of course. Ignorance is . . . Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love. Well, certainly every . . . That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love . . . universe. He has contradicted . . . Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe . . . But you cannot love each being. That is my point. They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being . . . Huh? You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. Then there is impure being and pure being? Yes. Is it that a fact? Is that true? Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being. It seems that way. The soul isn't impure. Huh? The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality—purity of the soul. You love God. Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul. It seems that way. It seems that there is . . . Yes. . . . to my eyes. Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure. That's very difficult. I don't know what you're saying. Huh? That there can be an impurity of the soul? He was asking . . . You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure. How can we distinguish? In the absolute sense the soul is always pure; there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā . . . Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā , His power of delusion, He can . . . He makes you think . . . He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world. So where from the māyā comes? From . . . I don't know. I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā . You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct) That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned . . . When a man is in ignorance. Well, which is first? Which is first? Which—ignorance or what? Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance? Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it. Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe you can explain that. Hmm? Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant? We are. Yes. We are. Yes. As he said, when you forget, this ignorance. Yes. Can you explain that a little bit more for us? He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance. Yes, forgetfulness. He knows that. The sense of egoism, "I and me and mine," is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing. Then God and you are different, because you forget God, He . . . (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa does not forget, and we forget, so there must be difference. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. So, to certain extent . . . Actually, that's the best attitude. So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said> "It seems," but we're saying "not seems" . . . That's because my . . . I've read so many things, some other types of philosophy. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it? Yes, that follows. Then how you become ignorant? That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain. Everything is mystery. Is that your . . . is it a mystery? No. You understand. Well, that's good. Someone has to. (indistinct) . . . to Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya , that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem: By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes. Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer, then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own. No, you can't. Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the . . . we have the science of love of God. Many people say . . . the material scientists say "perhaps" or "about" 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came; five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship. This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God, but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant, in māyā ? So māyā becomes better than God. Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant . . . (indistinct) . . . God, how it happens? You said there is God. God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God He is, that He becomes ignorant sometimes? And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God. No, no, He's the Lord of māyā . He . . . Kṛṣṇa's pure. Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything. Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets. Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant. Yes, of course. Now . . . that's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it? Yes. Then why not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why go to others? Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability. I've read the *Gītā* , the *Bhāgavatam* . What Kṛṣṇa says? What Kṛṣṇa says? If Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa? *He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So what has come? Reading is not, I mean to say . . . Of course not, reading is very . . . (indistinct) *. . . to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no more greater truth than Me." Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), "I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. " So why should we go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Then you should take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy. "Where is Kṛṣṇa"? Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Of course. As much as He allows me. *No, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You give up everything; just surrender unto Me." So if you surrender, who forbids you? But if you don't, that is your business. How does one surrender? That is another thing. You do not know, then you have to learn from one who is surrendered. But the position is this: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: ". . . (indistinct) . . . now. Now, sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like, you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep me." That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field, when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, "Surrender." That means "If you like, kill me. I throw down my weapon." People accept it. That's all. So He is the Supreme. If He likes, He can kill me; if He likes, He can save me. So I am subordinate. How can . . . I can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator? Can't be. He is the Lord . . . (indistinct) That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (to guest) One thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless, beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first . . . No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa. *If he has read Bhagavad*-gītā , that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā (BG 14.27), "I am the resort of Brahman." So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "Even Brahman emanates from Me." And actually it is so. Just like the sunshine is emanating from the sun globe. Although the sunshine is universal, but still dependent on the sun globe. Of course, that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course. That's good. Very nice. I wouldn't try to say that. Very nice. Very good. He's a good boy. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question. Hmm? If unity means to agree in purpose . . . Yes. . . . then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose? Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose. Oh. Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose. That only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone. Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, being all pervasive. He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you expect, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī , somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is Messiah, somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order. Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone . . . (indistinct) Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." That is not surrender. "I'll do whatever You want, but don't ask me to fight." *You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he said: "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa, that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes," then this is unity. This is unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct, and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is disunity, and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over," that is unity. Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot . . . that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings, they existed before, now we are existing, and we shall exist in future." So that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise, your existence, mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be. Sometimes people ask what is . . . what is God's ultimate goal? What is . . . why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations . . . *These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance: "All right, enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . ." and giving instruction also that "You enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again." Just like a father. Children wants to play in the field. "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. It is now time up . . ." they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right, enjoy." And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that, "Now you give up all these things. You have enjoyed . . . (indistinct) . . . can come back," then your . . . He created for you. Same example I always give: Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating? It is unnecessary, it's premature, construction in jail work." But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy, "All right, for you. You enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying, then Kṛṣṇa says that "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be happy." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda —to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say: "Mr. Such*-and-such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall remain, void? No, that's impossible. That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. Yes. Oh, thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . good boy. Come on, I . . . so, you have . . . you are old . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) (end) Conversation A -- February 13, 1974, Vrndavana (no audio, first part) I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Huh? I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. How many of you went? *Most everyone, about twenty*-five. . . . (indistinct) (audio starts) *At first they went to the Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana*-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi , and then I left, at Madana-mohana. Dr. Kapoor came this morning? No. No? All these boys and girls all went to sleep for a few minutes. (to guest) Thank you. You have come from where? Just now from the Hanumān Mandir , just down the road there, not far. But I'm . . . we're all from America. Here you are remaining there? We are there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Mohan?, a guesthouse just down to the right. Where is . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . he's delivering fruits and flowers. Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli. Nim Babari? Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask . . . he requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana , if you . . . if you wish. Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible? I . . . I don't know. I'm just . . . he asked me to come and request it, so . . . We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested. There are thirty Westerners there. Huh? There are about thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana . Thirty Westerners? Yes, that's right. Oh. That, I have no objection, we can go,. . . (indistinct) . . . those are organizing. You are also staying? Yes. The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask. Do you have any . . . any other questions? No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment. You don't have to explain your presence you are most welcome. Thank you. Where is the Deity? Taking on saṅkīrtana . You get time, you can . . . Saṅkīrtana , when you're ready. She (second woman guest) was attending all the lectures at the paṇḍāl in Delhi. Yes, I have seen her. And Philadelphia also. So, you understand our philosophy? Understand . . .? Our philosophy? Philosophy. Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities. Where? Philadelphia. Oh. And we do the āratik and read all your books. Which book? *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, Lord Caitanya, *Kṛṣṇa Book* , and obviously . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke , with all the philosophers, and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them or . . . (indistinct) Different schools of philosophy. Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin. Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good. They tried, but they weren't . . . they weren't God conscious. They were recording in their own poor? life . . . (indistinct) . . . the truth. The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure . . . figure it out with their mind. *They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, in the Western countries, they have . . . lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider this body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize . . . (indistinct) . . . if your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata . . . Śrīmad Bhāgavata , it is said that yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13): "Anyone, considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." (to guests) What is your philosophy? You don't take this body as the self? I . . . oh, no. You? No. Very good. So who is bringing my bedding? Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara? I don't know. I've got the keys to that room also. Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements. (to guests) So, what is your philosophy? My philosophy? Yes. The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān , is the one absolute existence, but it has a delusive power, whereby . . . Who is that got delusive power? God, or . . . God? . . . the māyā , the māyā of God makes . . . makes a man identify himself with his body. But it is . . . that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes . . . it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are . . . he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace. By God's grace, what happens? One cannot . . . one achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's . . . one no longer identifies himself with his body. So result of loving God, what it is? Without loving God? No. Result. Result is what? Of loving God? Yes. What will come? Is union with God. Union with God. What is that union? What is union? Union, I think it . . . it's called yoga , or it's samādhi . I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read. Samadhi is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity? What is the form of unity? Yes. I . . . my understanding is that, that, er, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving Beyond form. . . . through loving the form of God . . . it has form and yet it's formless. It's both . . . has form and formless. What is that formlessness, and what is that form? That I can't say. What do I know about these things? (laughs) My own knowledge is just very slight. You are not learning there, where you are staying? I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja . . . this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest. But love, if you have no form, where to love? The air? You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti , you love the form of God. But you said it's formless. Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the . . . How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy? You can't love the formless, it's true. Then. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love? He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me. What does he teach? He said . . . He teaches form? He says that . . . yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānjī. Who is Hanumān? Hanumān is the breath of Rāma. Huh? *The breath of Rāma, śvāsa . Rāma*-ke-śvāsa , breath of Rāma. Breath? The breath. Hanumān was the . . . Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?" and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve You." That's so nonsense. Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know . . . When you remember who you are, you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela , his disciple, "I'm Nam Karoli." Nim Karoli. Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta , we're His servant. Yes, that's also true. It's a fact. When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta . . . we should follow in his footsteps, "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee." Very humble. Then we can make advancement (CC Madhya 13.80). Mahārāja is teaching—you asked his teaching—these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve . . . How you can serve whole universe? I beg your pardon. How you can serve whole universe? How can you serve the whole universe? Yes. You love the beings that you find yourself . . . You love? To whom you love? Whoever you're with. Huh? Whatever, whatever . . . That is . . . suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression? Well, certainly every being in the universe is a part of me. (indistinct) . . . you can place your love to a particular person or particular community. Yes. Does it mean you love the whole universe? No. Just like, just like nationalism. You are American? Yes. So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe? If I love America? Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows. Ācchā . Why? Through ignorance. Men . . . Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance? You do your best. If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love. That's true, of course. Ignorance is . . . Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love. Well, certainly every . . . That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love . . . universe. He has contradicted . . . Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe . . . But you cannot love each being. That is my point. They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being . . . Huh? You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. Then there is impure being and pure being? Yes. Is it that a fact? Is that true? Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being. It seems that way. The soul isn't impure. Huh? The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality—purity of the soul. You love God. Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul. It seems that way. It seems that there is . . . Yes. . . . to my eyes. Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure. That's very difficult. I don't know what you're saying. Huh? That there can be an impurity of the soul? He was asking . . . You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure. How can we distinguish? In the absolute sense the soul is always pure; there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā . . . Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā , His power of delusion, He can . . . He makes you think . . . He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world. So where from the māyā comes? From . . . I don't know. I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā . You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct) That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned . . . When a man is in ignorance. Well, which is first? Which is first? Which—ignorance or what? Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance? Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it. Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe you can explain that. Hmm? Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant? We are. Yes. We are. Yes. As he said, when you forget, this ignorance. Yes. Can you explain that a little bit more for us? He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance. Yes, forgetfulness. He knows that. The sense of egoism, "I and me and mine," is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing. Then God and you are different, because you forget God, He . . . (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa does not forget, and we forget, so there must be difference. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. So, to certain extent . . . Actually, that's the best attitude. So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said> "It seems," but we're saying "not seems" . . . That's because my . . . I've read so many things, some other types of philosophy. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it? Yes, that follows. Then how you become ignorant? That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain. Everything is mystery. Is that your . . . is it a mystery? No. You understand. Well, that's good. Someone has to. (indistinct) . . . to Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya , that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem: By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes. Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer, then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own. No, you can't. Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the . . . we have the science of love of God. Many people say . . . the material scientists say "perhaps" or "about" 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came; five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship. This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God, but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant, in māyā ? So māyā becomes better than God. Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant . . . (indistinct) . . . God, how it happens? You said there is God. God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God He is, that He becomes ignorant sometimes? And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God. No, no, He's the Lord of māyā . He . . . Kṛṣṇa's pure. Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything. Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets. Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant. Yes, of course. Now . . . that's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it? Yes. Then why not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why go to others? Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability. I've read the *Gītā* , the *Bhāgavatam* . What Kṛṣṇa says? What Kṛṣṇa says? If Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa? *He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So what has come? Reading is not, I mean to say . . . Of course not, reading is very . . . (indistinct) *. . . to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no more greater truth than Me." Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), "I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. " So why should we go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Then you should take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy. "Where is Kṛṣṇa"? Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Of course. As much as He allows me. *No, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You give up everything; just surrender unto Me." So if you surrender, who forbids you? But if you don't, that is your business. How does one surrender? That is another thing. You do not know, then you have to learn from one who is surrendered. But the position is this: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: ". . . (indistinct) . . . now. Now, sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like, you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep me." That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field, when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, "Surrender." That means "If you like, kill me. I throw down my weapon." People accept it. That's all. So He is the Supreme. If He likes, He can kill me; if He likes, He can save me. So I am subordinate. How can . . . I can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator? Can't be. He is the Lord . . . (indistinct) That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (to guest) One thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless, beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first . . . No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa. *If he has read Bhagavad*-gītā , that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā (BG 14.27), "I am the resort of Brahman." So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "Even Brahman emanates from Me." And actually it is so. Just like the sunshine is emanating from the sun globe. Although the sunshine is universal, but still dependent on the sun globe. Of course, that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course. That's good. Very nice. I wouldn't try to say that. Very nice. Very good. He's a good boy. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question. Hmm? If unity means to agree in purpose . . . Yes. . . . then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose? Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose. Oh. Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose. That only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone. Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, being all pervasive. He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you expect, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī , somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is Messiah, somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order. Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone . . . (indistinct) Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." That is not surrender. "I'll do whatever You want, but don't ask me to fight." *You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he said: "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa, that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes," then this is unity. This is unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct, and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is disunity, and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over," that is unity. Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot . . . that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings, they existed before, now we are existing, and we shall exist in future." So that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise, your existence, mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be. Sometimes people ask what is . . . what is God's ultimate goal? What is . . . why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations . . . *These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance: "All right, enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . ." and giving instruction also that "You enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again." Just like a father. Children wants to play in the field. "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. It is now time up . . ." they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right, enjoy." And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that, "Now you give up all these things. You have enjoyed . . . (indistinct) . . . can come back," then your . . . He created for you. Same example I always give: Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating? It is unnecessary, it's premature, construction in jail work." But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy, "All right, for you. You enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying, then Kṛṣṇa says that "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be happy." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda —to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say: "Mr. Such*-and-such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall remain, void? No, that's impossible. That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. Yes. Oh, thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . good boy. Come on, I . . . so, you have . . . you are old . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) (end) Conversation -- February 14, 1974, Vrndavana . . . even those who are farmers . . . (indistinct) . . . in India also. As soon as they get some education, they don't want to be a farmer. They're going to the cities. Yes. They will be satisfied to become a petty clerk and get some very little income. They will be satisfied. They don't want to be . . . śūdra . That is the real śūdra . They are satisfied simply by eating, that's all. No ambition. *So somehow or other we have to attract some śūdras to our movement if we want to work self*-sufficiently. So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra , offer better price. But we will require more land. *We will require a self*-sufficient. Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community. That is wanted. *Because of Kali*-yuga. And also everyone in Vṛndāvana that I mention that we are planning to have gośala , everyone likes the idea. That will be very popular here. Gośala , everyone, their eyes become bright. Make at least gośala , keep cows. That is also profitable. Yes, maybe we should do that. One or two men may simply take care of the cows. Maybe we should do that. And grow grass, let them pasture. Yes, and plant trees. Yes. Maybe we should do that. Anyway, we have to utilize the land; otherwise what is the use? No, of course. Suppose we invest one lakh of rupees. One lakh rupees means 10,000 rupees per annum, almost 800, 900 rupees per month, yes interest. So we must utilize it. From this monetary point of view, because they get bank interest, people are not very interested in land. But you can't eat money. Eh? You can't eat money. Ultimately that is the . . . (aside) What? (break) . . . somehow or other, but it must be properly utilized. Who will give me massage? Oh, Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. So ask him. (break) . . . money. My point of . . . you can't eat money means that if it is in the bank earning interest . . . Eh? My point was if it is in the bank earning interest, we may die at any moment, so what is the point of in the bank? But if we have some land and utilizing it, it is a better investment. First you purchase, then we shall make program. For the time being, purchase. Actually that is money. Yes. When you sow it, it will bring more money. There will be no problem. In the old system, land and jewelry was riches. Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground, money? Presently I think gośala is more practical. There is another gośala , they are not utilizing, Panchayat Gośala. Why don't you try for that? They can give it free, that we shall . . . "Give us it, we shall utilize it for Kṛṣṇa." We can try. Find out who is Panchayat. "If we do not use for gośala , then you can take it back. But we shall utilize it for gośala . So why don't you give us the land?" Attached to the temple, we maintain a gośala . That's nice. Still we shall require to grow some food for the cows, and nice water supply. Then you simply keep the cows there. They will eat and drink and remain here peacefully. Only one room for watching. (indistinct) . . . he was complaining when I have last time . . . (break) Basudever yata boi, ini sob gras kore niyechen. (All the books of Basudeva, he has taken all that.) I think he had given him the books for distribution. He is distributing them. But he was to give one house and so many things, then he was to distribute them, whatever. Huh? Sunchilum, Basudev oikhane bari debe . . . (indistinct) . . . (I heard that Basudeva will be given one residential place there . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) . . . should we come back again. Apni ekbar asun amader oikhane. Paris. London. (You please come to all our places. Paris. London.) Radharani pathan amake. (Let Radharani send me.) Radharani pathabe. Khali kichu taka kharac korte hobe. Radharani pathaben. Amar mato ekjan adhamke pathalo! (Radharani will surely send you. Only you have to spend some money. Radharani will. She has sent an insignificant person like me.) Apnito Radharanir mission niye eschen. Kaj korchen to. (You have come for the mission of Radharani. You are working for that.) Apnio yaben to, mission niye yaben. (You will also go, with some mission.) So I said, Radharani . . . (indistinct) Also, in Vṛndāvana we are here to stay, no matter what the people say. Yes. Sob jagay te amader birodh. (We are facing opposition everywhere.) But we stay. Birodh tarpare matlab, lok bhangano . . . (indistinct) . . . kintu, yai hok theke ache. Gurubhairai yakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . oi asol, basic princlple ta holo himsa. Ei amader ekhane te esob holo, na holo . . . (indistinct) . . . Baro baro Maharaj ra sob, ar ei ekta cuno puti lok . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Madhav Maharaj to sunechi advertise koren double M.A. (Opposition, malice agenda . . . (indistinct) . . . anyways, that's alright. But when Godbrothers are . . . (indistinct) . . . but the main, basic principle is envy. That we couldn't make it happen like this . . . (indistinct) . . . they are such big big Mahārājas, and here is this tiny little fellow . . . (indistinct) . . . I heard that our Madhava Maharaja advertises himself to be a double M.A.) Ācchā . He is not a . . . (indistinct) Eh? He is not a . . . (indistinct) You do not know? No, I don't know. I think he is a graduate. Huh? He's not even a graduate? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I was told that he was a graduate long ago, you see, when I used to go to Calcutta, the Gauḍīya Maṭh there. Anyway . . . And Bon Mahārāja also has told he is a graduate. What is he? What is he? Bon Mahārāja, graduate? He is Karachi graduate. No, I don't think so. Anyway, so Falanite ata sota, bikr belay kac kola (Bengali proverb). (Shows off alot but when it is a question of working, then they are nothing.) Bon Mahārāja, eiye, ye boi likhechen, (Bon Mahārāja has written a book,) very important. Boi likhechen, onek guli boi likhechen, tar madhye likhechen 'ami Bhagavan darshan peyechi, ei lila darshan korechi, sei lila darshan korechi. Sei sob likhechen. (He has written a book, he has written many books. He has written in that book that, "I have got the darshan of the Lord, I have seen this pastime, that pastime." He has written all this.) Ācchā . Etato keu lekhe na. (No one has written this.) (break) Before I came, we had one big festival in Geneva for two days, Saturday and Sunday. Each night over 500 people. It was nice. Geneva's not very big. Geneva is important town. Important. Not very big, though. International town. Yes. When I was going to London from Bombay . . . no, no, when I was going to Switzerland, I think I stopped at Geneva. Zurich. You were in Zurich. Zurich; before that I stopped at Geneva. I saw the airport, very big airport. Then I went Zurich. And from Zurich I went to some Mount St . . . St. Hellish. (laughs) You have been there? You are right, St. Hellish . . . (indistinct) (laughs) Śyāmasundara. Yes, Śyāmasundara, "Oh, I have to . . ." He spent money for that. I thought, "It is hellish." (laughter) Always covered with snow. I could not get out. Two days I was imprisoned in that hotel room. But people go there. For health. Eh? For their health. What is the health there? But one wonderful I saw from there. Down 10,000 feet . . . (indistinct) . . . hill. Mountain. Mountain, yes. Down I saw the railway is going on. (break) . . . has entered the sky. That is it. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and the railway is very nice. Not like Darjeeling. You have to leave just now? Yes. I was to leave this morning, but I was to eat Yamunā's cooking . . . (indistinct) . . . cooking. Cooking was very nice, but I had no appetite. Appetite. No appetite. From yesterday lost my appetite. Because I was massaging you from yesterday. *(chuckles) No, that's not. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace to have less appetite, I think. Less sleep, less appetite, it is good. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . They conquered over, but I have not conquered it. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is reduced. May I have the key to the almirah, put these books away? Yes. (break) You have got the duplicate key? So I can take this key? Yes, I've given it to Guṇārṇava just now. Eh? I've given it to Guṇārṇava this morning, the duplicate. Oh. (break) So I will not live in this place. Eh? I will not live in your house, but I will work here. Because there is some objection from the boys, a lady living here. Apnar sange er sange dekha hoyechilo? Hari Gosvai. (Did you meet that gentleman? Hari Gosvai.) Hari Gosvai er sange dekha hoyeche. (Yes I met Hari Gosvai.) Uni ki bolen? (What did he say?) Ki bolen mane . . . (Means nothing as such . . .) He did not attend that meeting. So he doesn't have any first hand information. Apni o to chilen, apni dekhen ni? (You were also there in that meeting, you did not see?) Na. (No.) They didn't invite me. Ta meeting ta kiser? (What was the meeting about?) All the gosvāmīs. A representative gathering of all the gosvāmīs. *All the gosvāmīs . . . (indistinct) . . . all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs? *No, not all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs. The Rādhā-Damodara gosvāmīs are represented by . . . Eh? They were represented by . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī and Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī, but the gosvāmīs of the other temples. *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Rādhā*-Dāmodara's were there? *Rādhā*-Dāmodara was there. Yes. *Yesterday Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī was little bit rude, yesterday. Ācchā? To you? Yes. What did he say? He was angry because he had locked the door and locked me outside, and I knocked on the door until he came, and he was angry. He was a little rude. So I could tell something was wrong. Because usually he is not so rude. Eh? Usually he is not rude. He is never harsh. He was a little harsh. I could tell something was wrong. So they are planning something. I don't know exactly. I've not been able to make out what their plans are exactly, because they don't tell me everything. Eh? They don't tell me everything. They have something up their sleeves. I don't know what. So what should be our . . . *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī, other time he was not harsh? Not to me. To Gurudāsa maybe, but never me. But this time he was harsh? Yes, very harsh. What did he say? He was yelling. Eh? *He was yelling, raising his voice. He wasn't speaking in a quiet tone, he was yelling at me, "Why you are disturbing my sevā*-pūjā by making me come to the door?" I said: "I am engaged in Vaiṣṇava sevā as well. Vaiṣṇava sevā and Kṛṣṇa sevā . You please excuse me." I was very courteous, but he was harsh. So he was on the door? Yes. *Madana*-Mohana temple door? Yes, putting the wooden bolt so I can't come inside. Yesterday this was. After leaving here for pravacana and going there, he had locked the gate. Then I knocked until he came. *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī or Rādhā-Ramaṇa? *No, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *So what business you have to go to Madana*-Mohana temple at that time? *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī of Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. Ohhhh. Gaurachand's other side, where we live. *Ah, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. I thought from Madana-Mohana temple. No. Well, what about this Gaurachand Gosvāmī? He is calling for Gurudāsa sometimes. We don't speak so much. I don't see him because he isn't doing worship for the Deity of Dāmodara any more. So he is quiet, stays in the background. I think he wants sometimes a little money. Hmm? I think he is having a little difficulty with money, so he asks sometimes. Some help? Sometimes. Does he? Not very often, sometimes. Otherwise we don't see so much. But now I find he moved from Dāmodara. The last time I saw him, he said he wants Panchu to work for us. He said he . . . So what he will work? What he will work? He says he will do anything. Anything, but what anything? What? Right now we have no work except construction. So what should I tell him when I see him? What about? If he asks what about Panchu working there? So what kind of work you can provide? Is there any work for him? Only now construction. The construction, what he will do? He has no experience. Now see this gosvāmī , worshiping Deity, now he has no worshiping job, "Give me construction work." When we start our Deity program, should we . . .? No, no. No paid? No pay, neither . . . he smokes. Suppose he will join us and shave head and give up bīḍīs , then he can . . . That will take six life. (laughter) Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante ( BG 7.19). It is not so easy. It is not so easy. To give up all these things, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But they are not meant for that. But for money's sake, business' sake, they can take any shape. That is another thing. At least they will not be able to give up bīḍīs . That is not possible. They may be gosvāmī for everything, not for bīḍī . Ki bolen? (What do you say?) Na, ta thik bolchen bate. (Yes, you are saying right.) Sob bisay te hote pare, oi . . . oi ta parbe na. Babajio tai. (They can do everything except that. Babaji is also like that.) Yodi Bhagavaner darshan pay, Bhagavan balen 'tumi ki cao balo', to bolbe amar kono bidita kharap korben na'. (If they got the Darshan of the Lord and the Lord asks them what do you want, then they will say: "Kindly don't damage this bīḍī .") (chuckles) So Prabhupāda, I have an engagement at 4:30. I came only to see you because Nirvāsi told me that you were leaving. Ta, asun apni. (Okay, goodbye then.) So is there any instructions about this gosvāmī business that you have? Gosvāmī business? What gosvāmī business? These gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana that are agitated. No, I have not received any letter from them. Unless we receive a letter, how we can say anything? I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī . . . Eh? I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī and the other gosvāmīs also that Prabhupāda is in a very conciliatory mood, and if you make a proper approach, he is prepared to make proper amends for whatever has been taken in bad . . . (indistinct) Yes. But the approach should be proper. Eh? The approach should be proper. Yes. You told him? Yes. Yes. I told him about the drafts, you see, that you made the other day. I said: "Prabhupāda has only agreed. It was so magnanimous of him, so magnanimous." *Yes, I told you Friday, you write, I shall sign it. And why they are agitating and stopped such a function? And that is very regrettable. Gosvāmī means vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegaṁ viṣaheta (Upadeśāmṛta 1). If there is some krodha , he should tolerate. Now here is a Vaiṣṇava, he has done so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the reception was there, and he stopped. How he is gosvāmī? He expressed his krodha in that very moment, just to take retaliation. It is not gosvāmī. What do you think? Krodha-vegam . It is a krodha , but he could not tolerate that krodha-vegam . *He retaliated at the right moment and to a person, fit person, who was to be honored. Just see. And he claims to be gosvāmī. The first business is vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam . The Vaikuṇṭha mentality is that if one is serving—I have read it in Bhāgavata —Kṛṣṇa better than somebody else, he would simply appreciate that, "Kṛṣṇa has so much favored him. Oh, how fortunate he is. When I shall be able?" That is Vaikuṇṭha mentality. And the material mentality is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. How to cut down him?" That is material. This is the difference between Vaikuṇṭha mentality. So his business is how to cut down. So he is not a gosvāmī. At least I will not accept. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Of course you are. Eh? What shall I say? (chuckles) *This is the definition of gosvāmī. Vāco vegam krodha*-vegam udaro-vegam pastha-vegam etān manasaḥ vegam , etān vegān viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). So he has not proved to be very dhīra . Dhīrādhīra-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau (Śrīnivāsa Ācārya). So that is my regret, that these people cannot appreciate the service of a Vaiṣṇava. They are simply personally interested. Personally interested is materialistic way of life. Everybody is personally interested. (break) I think after he returns he will do something. Eh? He might do something after he returns. All right, we shall see to it. (end) Conversation -- February 14, 1974, Vrndavana . . . even those who are farmers . . . (indistinct) . . . in India also. As soon as they get some education, they don't want to be a farmer. They're going to the cities. Yes. They will be satisfied to become a petty clerk and get some very little income. They will be satisfied. They don't want to be . . . śūdra . That is the real śūdra . They are satisfied simply by eating, that's all. No ambition. *So somehow or other we have to attract some śūdras to our movement if we want to work self*-sufficiently. So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra , offer better price. But we will require more land. *We will require a self*-sufficient. Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community. That is wanted. *Because of Kali*-yuga. And also everyone in Vṛndāvana that I mention that we are planning to have gośala , everyone likes the idea. That will be very popular here. Gośala , everyone, their eyes become bright. Make at least gośala , keep cows. That is also profitable. Yes, maybe we should do that. One or two men may simply take care of the cows. Maybe we should do that. And grow grass, let them pasture. Yes, and plant trees. Yes. Maybe we should do that. Anyway, we have to utilize the land; otherwise what is the use? No, of course. Suppose we invest one lakh of rupees. One lakh rupees means 10,000 rupees per annum, almost 800, 900 rupees per month, yes interest. So we must utilize it. From this monetary point of view, because they get bank interest, people are not very interested in land. But you can't eat money. Eh? You can't eat money. Ultimately that is the . . . (aside) What? (break) . . . somehow or other, but it must be properly utilized. Who will give me massage? Oh, Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. So ask him. (break) . . . money. My point of . . . you can't eat money means that if it is in the bank earning interest . . . Eh? My point was if it is in the bank earning interest, we may die at any moment, so what is the point of in the bank? But if we have some land and utilizing it, it is a better investment. First you purchase, then we shall make program. For the time being, purchase. Actually that is money. Yes. When you sow it, it will bring more money. There will be no problem. In the old system, land and jewelry was riches. Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground, money? Presently I think gośala is more practical. There is another gośala , they are not utilizing, Panchayat Gośala. Why don't you try for that? They can give it free, that we shall . . . "Give us it, we shall utilize it for Kṛṣṇa." We can try. Find out who is Panchayat. "If we do not use for gośala , then you can take it back. But we shall utilize it for gośala . So why don't you give us the land?" Attached to the temple, we maintain a gośala . That's nice. Still we shall require to grow some food for the cows, and nice water supply. Then you simply keep the cows there. They will eat and drink and remain here peacefully. Only one room for watching. (indistinct) . . . he was complaining when I have last time . . . (break) Basudever yata boi, ini sob gras kore niyechen. (All the books of Basudeva, he has taken all that.) I think he had given him the books for distribution. He is distributing them. But he was to give one house and so many things, then he was to distribute them, whatever. Huh? Sunchilum, Basudev oikhane bari debe . . . (indistinct) . . . (I heard that Basudeva will be given one residential place there . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) . . . should we come back again. Apni ekbar asun amader oikhane. Paris. London. (You please come to all our places. Paris. London.) Radharani pathan amake. (Let Radharani send me.) Radharani pathabe. Khali kichu taka kharac korte hobe. Radharani pathaben. Amar mato ekjan adhamke pathalo! (Radharani will surely send you. Only you have to spend some money. Radharani will. She has sent an insignificant person like me.) Apnito Radharanir mission niye eschen. Kaj korchen to. (You have come for the mission of Radharani. You are working for that.) Apnio yaben to, mission niye yaben. (You will also go, with some mission.) So I said, Radharani . . . (indistinct) Also, in Vṛndāvana we are here to stay, no matter what the people say. Yes. Sob jagay te amader birodh. (We are facing opposition everywhere.) But we stay. Birodh tarpare matlab, lok bhangano . . . (indistinct) . . . kintu, yai hok theke ache. Gurubhairai yakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . oi asol, basic princlple ta holo himsa. Ei amader ekhane te esob holo, na holo . . . (indistinct) . . . Baro baro Maharaj ra sob, ar ei ekta cuno puti lok . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Madhav Maharaj to sunechi advertise koren double M.A. (Opposition, malice agenda . . . (indistinct) . . . anyways, that's alright. But when Godbrothers are . . . (indistinct) . . . but the main, basic principle is envy. That we couldn't make it happen like this . . . (indistinct) . . . they are such big big Mahārājas, and here is this tiny little fellow . . . (indistinct) . . . I heard that our Madhava Maharaja advertises himself to be a double M.A.) Ācchā . He is not a . . . (indistinct) Eh? He is not a . . . (indistinct) You do not know? No, I don't know. I think he is a graduate. Huh? He's not even a graduate? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I was told that he was a graduate long ago, you see, when I used to go to Calcutta, the Gauḍīya Maṭh there. Anyway . . . And Bon Mahārāja also has told he is a graduate. What is he? What is he? Bon Mahārāja, graduate? He is Karachi graduate. No, I don't think so. Anyway, so Falanite ata sota, bikr belay kac kola (Bengali proverb). (Shows off alot but when it is a question of working, then they are nothing.) Bon Mahārāja, eiye, ye boi likhechen, (Bon Mahārāja has written a book,) very important. Boi likhechen, onek guli boi likhechen, tar madhye likhechen 'ami Bhagavan darshan peyechi, ei lila darshan korechi, sei lila darshan korechi. Sei sob likhechen. (He has written a book, he has written many books. He has written in that book that, "I have got the darshan of the Lord, I have seen this pastime, that pastime." He has written all this.) Ācchā . Etato keu lekhe na. (No one has written this.) (break) Before I came, we had one big festival in Geneva for two days, Saturday and Sunday. Each night over 500 people. It was nice. Geneva's not very big. Geneva is important town. Important. Not very big, though. International town. Yes. When I was going to London from Bombay . . . no, no, when I was going to Switzerland, I think I stopped at Geneva. Zurich. You were in Zurich. Zurich; before that I stopped at Geneva. I saw the airport, very big airport. Then I went Zurich. And from Zurich I went to some Mount St . . . St. Hellish. (laughs) You have been there? You are right, St. Hellish . . . (indistinct) (laughs) Śyāmasundara. Yes, Śyāmasundara, "Oh, I have to . . ." He spent money for that. I thought, "It is hellish." (laughter) Always covered with snow. I could not get out. Two days I was imprisoned in that hotel room. But people go there. For health. Eh? For their health. What is the health there? But one wonderful I saw from there. Down 10,000 feet . . . (indistinct) . . . hill. Mountain. Mountain, yes. Down I saw the railway is going on. (break) . . . has entered the sky. That is it. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and the railway is very nice. Not like Darjeeling. You have to leave just now? Yes. I was to leave this morning, but I was to eat Yamunā's cooking . . . (indistinct) . . . cooking. Cooking was very nice, but I had no appetite. Appetite. No appetite. From yesterday lost my appetite. Because I was massaging you from yesterday. *(chuckles) No, that's not. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace to have less appetite, I think. Less sleep, less appetite, it is good. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . They conquered over, but I have not conquered it. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is reduced. May I have the key to the almirah, put these books away? Yes. (break) You have got the duplicate key? So I can take this key? Yes, I've given it to Guṇārṇava just now. Eh? I've given it to Guṇārṇava this morning, the duplicate. Oh. (break) So I will not live in this place. Eh? I will not live in your house, but I will work here. Because there is some objection from the boys, a lady living here. Apnar sange er sange dekha hoyechilo? Hari Gosvai. (Did you meet that gentleman? Hari Gosvai.) Hari Gosvai er sange dekha hoyeche. (Yes I met Hari Gosvai.) Uni ki bolen? (What did he say?) Ki bolen mane . . . (Means nothing as such . . .) He did not attend that meeting. So he doesn't have any first hand information. Apni o to chilen, apni dekhen ni? (You were also there in that meeting, you did not see?) Na. (No.) They didn't invite me. Ta meeting ta kiser? (What was the meeting about?) All the gosvāmīs. A representative gathering of all the gosvāmīs. *All the gosvāmīs . . . (indistinct) . . . all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs? *No, not all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs. The Rādhā-Damodara gosvāmīs are represented by . . . Eh? They were represented by . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī and Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī, but the gosvāmīs of the other temples. *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Rādhā*-Dāmodara's were there? *Rādhā*-Dāmodara was there. Yes. *Yesterday Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī was little bit rude, yesterday. Ācchā? To you? Yes. What did he say? He was angry because he had locked the door and locked me outside, and I knocked on the door until he came, and he was angry. He was a little rude. So I could tell something was wrong. Because usually he is not so rude. Eh? Usually he is not rude. He is never harsh. He was a little harsh. I could tell something was wrong. So they are planning something. I don't know exactly. I've not been able to make out what their plans are exactly, because they don't tell me everything. Eh? They don't tell me everything. They have something up their sleeves. I don't know what. So what should be our . . . *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī, other time he was not harsh? Not to me. To Gurudāsa maybe, but never me. But this time he was harsh? Yes, very harsh. What did he say? He was yelling. Eh? *He was yelling, raising his voice. He wasn't speaking in a quiet tone, he was yelling at me, "Why you are disturbing my sevā*-pūjā by making me come to the door?" I said: "I am engaged in Vaiṣṇava sevā as well. Vaiṣṇava sevā and Kṛṣṇa sevā . You please excuse me." I was very courteous, but he was harsh. So he was on the door? Yes. *Madana*-Mohana temple door? Yes, putting the wooden bolt so I can't come inside. Yesterday this was. After leaving here for pravacana and going there, he had locked the gate. Then I knocked until he came. *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī or Rādhā-Ramaṇa? *No, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *So what business you have to go to Madana*-Mohana temple at that time? *Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī of Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. Ohhhh. Gaurachand's other side, where we live. *Ah, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. I thought from Madana-Mohana temple. No. Well, what about this Gaurachand Gosvāmī? He is calling for Gurudāsa sometimes. We don't speak so much. I don't see him because he isn't doing worship for the Deity of Dāmodara any more. So he is quiet, stays in the background. I think he wants sometimes a little money. Hmm? I think he is having a little difficulty with money, so he asks sometimes. Some help? Sometimes. Does he? Not very often, sometimes. Otherwise we don't see so much. But now I find he moved from Dāmodara. The last time I saw him, he said he wants Panchu to work for us. He said he . . . So what he will work? What he will work? He says he will do anything. Anything, but what anything? What? Right now we have no work except construction. So what should I tell him when I see him? What about? If he asks what about Panchu working there? So what kind of work you can provide? Is there any work for him? Only now construction. The construction, what he will do? He has no experience. Now see this gosvāmī , worshiping Deity, now he has no worshiping job, "Give me construction work." When we start our Deity program, should we . . .? No, no. No paid? No pay, neither . . . he smokes. Suppose he will join us and shave head and give up bīḍīs , then he can . . . That will take six life. (laughter) Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante ( BG 7.19). It is not so easy. It is not so easy. To give up all these things, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But they are not meant for that. But for money's sake, business' sake, they can take any shape. That is another thing. At least they will not be able to give up bīḍīs . That is not possible. They may be gosvāmī for everything, not for bīḍī . Ki bolen? (What do you say?) Na, ta thik bolchen bate. (Yes, you are saying right.) Sob bisay te hote pare, oi . . . oi ta parbe na. Babajio tai. (They can do everything except that. Babaji is also like that.) Yodi Bhagavaner darshan pay, Bhagavan balen 'tumi ki cao balo', to bolbe amar kono bidita kharap korben na'. (If they got the Darshan of the Lord and the Lord asks them what do you want, then they will say: "Kindly don't damage this bīḍī .") (chuckles) So Prabhupāda, I have an engagement at 4:30. I came only to see you because Nirvāsi told me that you were leaving. Ta, asun apni. (Okay, goodbye then.) So is there any instructions about this gosvāmī business that you have? Gosvāmī business? What gosvāmī business? These gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana that are agitated. No, I have not received any letter from them. Unless we receive a letter, how we can say anything? I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī . . . Eh? I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī and the other gosvāmīs also that Prabhupāda is in a very conciliatory mood, and if you make a proper approach, he is prepared to make proper amends for whatever has been taken in bad . . . (indistinct) Yes. But the approach should be proper. Eh? The approach should be proper. Yes. You told him? Yes. Yes. I told him about the drafts, you see, that you made the other day. I said: "Prabhupāda has only agreed. It was so magnanimous of him, so magnanimous." *Yes, I told you Friday, you write, I shall sign it. And why they are agitating and stopped such a function? And that is very regrettable. Gosvāmī means vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegaṁ viṣaheta (Upadeśāmṛta 1). If there is some krodha , he should tolerate. Now here is a Vaiṣṇava, he has done so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the reception was there, and he stopped. How he is gosvāmī? He expressed his krodha in that very moment, just to take retaliation. It is not gosvāmī. What do you think? Krodha-vegam . It is a krodha , but he could not tolerate that krodha-vegam . *He retaliated at the right moment and to a person, fit person, who was to be honored. Just see. And he claims to be gosvāmī. The first business is vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam . The Vaikuṇṭha mentality is that if one is serving—I have read it in Bhāgavata —Kṛṣṇa better than somebody else, he would simply appreciate that, "Kṛṣṇa has so much favored him. Oh, how fortunate he is. When I shall be able?" That is Vaikuṇṭha mentality. And the material mentality is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. How to cut down him?" That is material. This is the difference between Vaikuṇṭha mentality. So his business is how to cut down. So he is not a gosvāmī. At least I will not accept. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Of course you are. Eh? What shall I say? (chuckles) *This is the definition of gosvāmī. Vāco vegam krodha*-vegam udaro-vegam pastha-vegam etān manasaḥ vegam , etān vegān viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). So he has not proved to be very dhīra . Dhīrādhīra-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau (Śrīnivāsa Ācārya). So that is my regret, that these people cannot appreciate the service of a Vaiṣṇava. They are simply personally interested. Personally interested is materialistic way of life. Everybody is personally interested. (break) I think after he returns he will do something. Eh? He might do something after he returns. All right, we shall see to it. (end) Conversation -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana (Conversations with Sannyasis ) . . . seeing how the money is spent, everything is going nice. It is organized, and everything . . . Yes. Management. Management means everything is in order; otherwise what is the use of assembling together? If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward. Sometimes, though, it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a . . . Huh? I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I . . . I went ahead and bathed, because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for āratik . So I said: "If you are not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to āratik . But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm. But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is next, then you can say: "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up," "All right, I'm waking up . . . (indistinct) . . ." But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. We go to the āratik . Huh? We go to the . . . up into the temple for the āratik , so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik . No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask to leave. Yes. Not that fighting. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes. I just want to say one thing, that this . . . then I'll leave, because this is a meeting of the management here. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I'm concerned, that was very . . . (aside) That I have . . . (indistinct) . . . later. That was very cruel. It looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. It looked criminal. So, I don't think, uh . . . if it happened to me I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That's not good, under any circumstance. That we are discussing. That was not a very . . . (indistinct) *The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like this. So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them. Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask: "When he is coming . . . (indistinct) . . .?" As soon as it is five, immediately I ask. So there may be more persons, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping, the kīrtana is going on, or morning prayer is going on, so he maybe said that: "If we sleep like that, then you cannot do it." I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do . . . That's all right, but why did you . . . off something, pour water on his body? Simply to wake him. You should not do anything which may provoke some . . . (indistinct) Aggressively. So, best thing was to say that he is not in good shape; say to me that he is incorrigible. And I could have asked him . . . (indistinct) . . . he would have finished. He may give one day, once, twice - if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also . . . the police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody." What can I answer? How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Now here is the . . . (indistinct) . . . he says that nobody rises early in the morning. Just like yourself. But he is rising. I am, I am rising. He is rising, but others! Some others are rising. Not . . . not all, but some of them are rising. The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That's their job. That's why you've taken . . . But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who will continually disobey, he should be respectfully asked, "Please go." You cannot . . . that . . . Who has the authority to say to somebody, "Please go," though? Huh? Who has the authority to tell a person, "Please go"? We don't know who. I don't know who has that authority. The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . That gives authority. Not in ISKCON. That gives authority. Not in ISKCON. Yes it does. In US . . . No, no it doesn't. They do not respect sannyāsīs . (devotees all talk at once) Because you may not deserve it, then. Now I'm getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like that, but behind my back people are talking, saying this . . . Now if they do not also obey the orders of the sannyāsī , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice of higher, or some official, president. Then steps should be taken that, "If you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave." It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī , leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations, and then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times, "Please leave." Like that. If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected. Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one . . . Leave means he can go to other center. I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you are making so much preaching, why, to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . This was not a paltry reason. When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and . . . that is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something is being wrong . . . he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our work. Śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ . By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my . . . (indistinct) . . . because they are . . . they are . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible . . . after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be . . . "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Engage him. *By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money. What can be done? But I don't think that if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required . . . (indistinct) . . . after all, human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya (Lord Caitanya). We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep . . . (indistinct) . . . how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere , first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me just like I , I . . . (indistinct) . . . this way. We have to do like that. Not that I "Comand, you do this. Oh, you cannot do? Get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that, "You do not . . . (indistinct) . . ." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra, you. He was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from . . . (indistinct) . . . so you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take . . . of course in some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is preferred . . . otherwise, regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water, sunshine. Whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise, everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service by six o'clock or five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should know everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real benefit. See in the early in the morning. So many parties come. *From three*-thirty. *Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself, and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning. We have got our duties. *Just like yesterday, Dvija*-hari came over and he said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean over at Keśi-ghāṭa. So I said: "Well there are so many sannyāsīs there. Ask them to organize a cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one will clean. They don't want to do it." So . . . Why not some . . . some people clean like this, you have to get cleaning . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) If they won't, then you show them how. You . . . you do it also. . . . because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group, and it left for other parties. No, but I am just saying, there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it because they are following your examples. I'm cleaning my room; I'm cleaning outside also. I don't . . . seen it. I'm not criticizing, I'm just . . . Anyway, whatever is done is done, you should be followed like that, that āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . This should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly. Then it will be . . . everyone should remain cleansed, everyone should rise early in the morning, begin to work, comes to . . . everyone routine work. So then you can ask them, "Why you are not trying? Why you are not . . ." Then he will accept . . . (indistinct) . . . but this principle should be followed, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . Is it not? Yes. Well, for myself in particular, I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . They have . . . behind my back I hear all kinds of things they are saying. So nobody takes my words seriously. Even though I may quote from any scripture right, they don't respect me. What is that māyā ? Songs are māyā ? As soon as I left Calcutta, then all the bhajanas , they are all, "Oh, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then, "Okay, the songs are alright, but the tunes are poison." Now how can I overcome that? I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta. You wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said . . . and he had signed a letter something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja." And you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say 'Guru Mahārāja' we always say name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in . . . as vague 'Guru Mahārāja.' " So we were singing, jaya prabhupāda, jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Also he says: " Nitāi*-gaura haribol , that is also . . . that's māyā ." So, what is that? And so he was saying that all these bhajanas , they are . . . they are not bona fide, because they are, have . . . He said: " Gaura haribol is not bona fide?" Who said, bona fide? Oh, not that. He was saying jaya gurudeva, jaya prabhupāda , that is not good. Huh? I said, was saying, that is not good, jaya gurudeva , because it does not say who, it just says gurudeva . It could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Who was criticizing? Bhavānanda. Because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalist to the letter. So it means I am a Māyāvādī, that's what it means. Well . . . It's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual, specific things. That overall I'm a Māyāvādī. I find an overall bad atmosphere in India. Resentment against many of the devotees. Party politics and different things like that are going on. It's not limited, it's going on all over India. That's so . . . Very heavy. *Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has the respect of everyone now, because he is doing such a good job of managing, and he's just, he's doing, he's performing nicely his devotional work, and he's getting some results. That's respect. Then you'll get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he's built up ISKCON Press 'till it's just like (snaps fingers) that, and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he's performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere's bad . . ." Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated paramahamsa . We are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancy here and there. So generally with our . . . general rules are . . . (indistinct) . . . common. First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and be ready for our performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there. In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early. Anything that interferes with them doing as . . . exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa . This is a fact. So how to correct it? If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct? Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense and if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things. And that is separatism because it's not in . . . falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place. *Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract. When people are attracted by seeing your behavior, they are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are . . ." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere : we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be effective. Another—this is general principle—now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing, that Keśi*-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property all this be dropped? What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now . . . because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient bank balance, such a big temple. I don't . . . Huh? *I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . At the present it is not. It's so big. It's so big. Most of the quality of people that are there are . . . less people of a higher quality in a smaller place, it would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still the work would go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this what with we're having right now. I could avoid it completely because I was . . . there was nobody there to cause it—all new people. Everybody here knows everything. (laughter) Like . . . And it goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it would be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a . . . Then what is your suggestion? That we start a small center and then develop it gradually, with less . . . with less inexperienced people . . . We've had a small center here for . . . Huh? We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Well, we're not saying that it . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point. At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave. Our visas will be taken away, and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a . . . it is not a . . . it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already—Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage . . . At Singapore our men cannot enter. Yeah. This has happened. There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know. That Singapore, legally our men cannot enter. They wouldn't even let you in. *I think that his point . . . I think we spoke about this in Manila, was that anywhere in the world, in, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area, or are in an area, and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti*-yoga, engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that that has more effect than . . . Yeah, it's more successful. . . . than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who's doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Yeah, I know the difficulty they're having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it's more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations . . . Right. . . . they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow . . . Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist. Yeah. And if the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . It can't be a negative ass thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person. Now, such camps, because you are not established, so under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees? We have our base in Calcutta. We have our base in Bombay. Those two places. Ah. Those are important cities in the world. Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating this property. No, no. Huh? Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know . . . if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Yes. . . . then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally. Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available. I don't think we need to worry about that. Huh? I think that if we . . . if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Yeah. If we have devotees then . . . That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Yes. What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all . . . we have seen that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . No management. No management. As far as the men, since I think a lot are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States, you've divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. That's a good idea. That's good. So you make like that. That's what . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts? Yes. But we are . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four . . . twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes. That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Yes. Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad, and we can ask him to do it. Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak, and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī , one of the biggest sannyāsīs , Gangeshvara, he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource; men and money he has. Immense resource. We have to be careful not to . . . Huh? . . . not to offend these people, the . . . Yes. . . . spiritual leaders. So, not offense. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything . . . everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible, even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everybody. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end) Conversation -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana (Conversations with Sannyasis ) . . . seeing how the money is spent, everything is going nice. It is organized, and everything . . . Yes. Management. Management means everything is in order; otherwise what is the use of assembling together? If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward. Sometimes, though, it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a . . . Huh? I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I . . . I went ahead and bathed, because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for āratik . So I said: "If you are not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to āratik . But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm. But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is next, then you can say: "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up," "All right, I'm waking up . . . (indistinct) . . ." But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. We go to the āratik . Huh? We go to the . . . up into the temple for the āratik , so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik . No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask to leave. Yes. Not that fighting. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Yes. I just want to say one thing, that this . . . then I'll leave, because this is a meeting of the management here. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I'm concerned, that was very . . . (aside) That I have . . . (indistinct) . . . later. That was very cruel. It looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. It looked criminal. So, I don't think, uh . . . if it happened to me I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That's not good, under any circumstance. That we are discussing. That was not a very . . . (indistinct) *The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like this. So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them. Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask: "When he is coming . . . (indistinct) . . .?" As soon as it is five, immediately I ask. So there may be more persons, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping, the kīrtana is going on, or morning prayer is going on, so he maybe said that: "If we sleep like that, then you cannot do it." I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do . . . That's all right, but why did you . . . off something, pour water on his body? Simply to wake him. You should not do anything which may provoke some . . . (indistinct) Aggressively. So, best thing was to say that he is not in good shape; say to me that he is incorrigible. And I could have asked him . . . (indistinct) . . . he would have finished. He may give one day, once, twice - if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also . . . the police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody." What can I answer? How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Now here is the . . . (indistinct) . . . he says that nobody rises early in the morning. Just like yourself. But he is rising. I am, I am rising. He is rising, but others! Some others are rising. Not . . . not all, but some of them are rising. The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That's their job. That's why you've taken . . . But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who will continually disobey, he should be respectfully asked, "Please go." You cannot . . . that . . . Who has the authority to say to somebody, "Please go," though? Huh? Who has the authority to tell a person, "Please go"? We don't know who. I don't know who has that authority. The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . That gives authority. Not in ISKCON. That gives authority. Not in ISKCON. Yes it does. In US . . . No, no it doesn't. They do not respect sannyāsīs . (devotees all talk at once) Because you may not deserve it, then. Now I'm getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like that, but behind my back people are talking, saying this . . . Now if they do not also obey the orders of the sannyāsī , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice of higher, or some official, president. Then steps should be taken that, "If you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave." It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī , leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations, and then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times, "Please leave." Like that. If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected. Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one . . . Leave means he can go to other center. I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you are making so much preaching, why, to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . This was not a paltry reason. When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and . . . that is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something is being wrong . . . he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our work. Śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ . By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my . . . (indistinct) . . . because they are . . . they are . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible . . . after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be . . . "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Engage him. *By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money. What can be done? But I don't think that if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required . . . (indistinct) . . . after all, human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya (Lord Caitanya). We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep . . . (indistinct) . . . how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere , first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me just like I , I . . . (indistinct) . . . this way. We have to do like that. Not that I "Comand, you do this. Oh, you cannot do? Get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that, "You do not . . . (indistinct) . . ." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra, you. He was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from . . . (indistinct) . . . so you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take . . . of course in some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is preferred . . . otherwise, regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water, sunshine. Whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise, everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service by six o'clock or five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should know everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real benefit. See in the early in the morning. So many parties come. *From three*-thirty. *Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself, and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning. We have got our duties. *Just like yesterday, Dvija*-hari came over and he said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean over at Keśi-ghāṭa. So I said: "Well there are so many sannyāsīs there. Ask them to organize a cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one will clean. They don't want to do it." So . . . Why not some . . . some people clean like this, you have to get cleaning . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) If they won't, then you show them how. You . . . you do it also. . . . because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group, and it left for other parties. No, but I am just saying, there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it because they are following your examples. I'm cleaning my room; I'm cleaning outside also. I don't . . . seen it. I'm not criticizing, I'm just . . . Anyway, whatever is done is done, you should be followed like that, that āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . This should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly. Then it will be . . . everyone should remain cleansed, everyone should rise early in the morning, begin to work, comes to . . . everyone routine work. So then you can ask them, "Why you are not trying? Why you are not . . ." Then he will accept . . . (indistinct) . . . but this principle should be followed, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . Is it not? Yes. Well, for myself in particular, I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . They have . . . behind my back I hear all kinds of things they are saying. So nobody takes my words seriously. Even though I may quote from any scripture right, they don't respect me. What is that māyā ? Songs are māyā ? As soon as I left Calcutta, then all the bhajanas , they are all, "Oh, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then, "Okay, the songs are alright, but the tunes are poison." Now how can I overcome that? I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta. You wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said . . . and he had signed a letter something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja." And you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say 'Guru Mahārāja' we always say name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in . . . as vague 'Guru Mahārāja.' " So we were singing, jaya prabhupāda, jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Also he says: " Nitāi*-gaura haribol , that is also . . . that's māyā ." So, what is that? And so he was saying that all these bhajanas , they are . . . they are not bona fide, because they are, have . . . He said: " Gaura haribol is not bona fide?" Who said, bona fide? Oh, not that. He was saying jaya gurudeva, jaya prabhupāda , that is not good. Huh? I said, was saying, that is not good, jaya gurudeva , because it does not say who, it just says gurudeva . It could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Who was criticizing? Bhavānanda. Because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalist to the letter. So it means I am a Māyāvādī, that's what it means. Well . . . It's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual, specific things. That overall I'm a Māyāvādī. I find an overall bad atmosphere in India. Resentment against many of the devotees. Party politics and different things like that are going on. It's not limited, it's going on all over India. That's so . . . Very heavy. *Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has the respect of everyone now, because he is doing such a good job of managing, and he's just, he's doing, he's performing nicely his devotional work, and he's getting some results. That's respect. Then you'll get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he's built up ISKCON Press 'till it's just like (snaps fingers) that, and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he's performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere's bad . . ." Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated paramahamsa . We are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancy here and there. So generally with our . . . general rules are . . . (indistinct) . . . common. First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and be ready for our performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there. In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early. Anything that interferes with them doing as . . . exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa . This is a fact. So how to correct it? If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct? Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense and if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things. And that is separatism because it's not in . . . falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place. *Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract. When people are attracted by seeing your behavior, they are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are . . ." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere : we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be effective. Another—this is general principle—now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing, that Keśi*-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property all this be dropped? What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now . . . because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient bank balance, such a big temple. I don't . . . Huh? *I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . At the present it is not. It's so big. It's so big. Most of the quality of people that are there are . . . less people of a higher quality in a smaller place, it would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still the work would go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this what with we're having right now. I could avoid it completely because I was . . . there was nobody there to cause it—all new people. Everybody here knows everything. (laughter) Like . . . And it goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it would be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a . . . Then what is your suggestion? That we start a small center and then develop it gradually, with less . . . with less inexperienced people . . . We've had a small center here for . . . Huh? We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Well, we're not saying that it . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point. At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave. Our visas will be taken away, and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a . . . it is not a . . . it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already—Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage . . . At Singapore our men cannot enter. Yeah. This has happened. There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know. That Singapore, legally our men cannot enter. They wouldn't even let you in. *I think that his point . . . I think we spoke about this in Manila, was that anywhere in the world, in, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area, or are in an area, and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti*-yoga, engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that that has more effect than . . . Yeah, it's more successful. . . . than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who's doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Yeah, I know the difficulty they're having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it's more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations . . . Right. . . . they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow . . . Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist. Yeah. And if the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . It can't be a negative ass thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person. Now, such camps, because you are not established, so under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees? We have our base in Calcutta. We have our base in Bombay. Those two places. Ah. Those are important cities in the world. Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating this property. No, no. Huh? Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know . . . if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Yes. . . . then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally. Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available. I don't think we need to worry about that. Huh? I think that if we . . . if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Yeah. If we have devotees then . . . That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Yes. What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all . . . we have seen that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . No management. No management. As far as the men, since I think a lot are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States, you've divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. That's a good idea. That's good. So you make like that. That's what . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts? Yes. But we are . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four . . . twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes. That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Yes. Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad, and we can ask him to do it. Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak, and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī , one of the biggest sannyāsīs , Gangeshvara, he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource; men and money he has. Immense resource. We have to be careful not to . . . Huh? . . . not to offend these people, the . . . Yes. . . . spiritual leaders. So, not offense. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything . . . everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible, even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everybody. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end) Conversation A -- March 16, 1974, Vrndavana . . . come with me? Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time. Oh. That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again. Oh. So what is your program now? Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him. Oh. And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you. Nim Karoli, how do you know him? Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert? Oh, Balarāma, he was here. Baba Ram, Baba Ram. Baba Ram Das. Oh, Baba Ram. Tomar khabar diyeche? (They gave you food?) (break) . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram. Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard. Yes. And people are also almost Indian standard. Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this. *Anti*-point. *Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā*-kālī. *Worship Mahā*-kālī? *Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads. Oh. You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls. Oh, skulls. Skulls. *They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā*-kālī. *Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. That is worship. That is religion? Well, before, when the Spanish were there. Oh. Name is Papinque. Oh. And she's supposed to represent the earth. Your parents live in Mexico City? No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya. Oh On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time. Oh. They're also vegetarians now. Acchā ? In Mexico they are vegetarians? Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians. Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from? I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break) How's your health? Health is not very good. I am not cent percent. So much time . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ghee . Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No. There is good butter. Butter? Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . . Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall. Yes. And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi." That was in Mexico. In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men. Oh. Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi. There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street. Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break) Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break) From that illness you had when you came to India . . . Yes. When you were recovering from your stroke? Oh. I think you looked in better health then. When I was . . . Yes. Yes. Since then I have no stroke. You still have massages every day? Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following? Pardon? Which philosophy you are following? Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedānta and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct) He also teaches Kṛṣṇa? Uh, he teaches, uh . . . Buddha. Buddha. Buddhism. So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy? Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too. So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God. Yeah. It's a atheistic approach. Huh? It's a atheistic approach. No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy. The approach is different, yes. Hmm? The approach is different. Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy? There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?" Achieved? Achieved. You know—attained. Achieved. Oh. And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different. If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there? Well . . . If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light. We are, approaching means . . . But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light? Yes, but what are we approaching? Huh? What are we approaching? That you have to explain. Yes. We say . . . The Absolute. We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same. Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa , but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . . I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa . That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position. How is it that I cannot explain my position? Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa . Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness. Then where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa means finished. Uh, yes. I think that . . . Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void. Etymologically it means "No wind." Huh? "No wind." No wind? The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind. No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished. That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Huh? That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa . (to guest) You want some more vegetables and purīs ? Give him. More, more. Not more. Yes. If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire. Huh? If there's an extinguishing . . . So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are? But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . . That is not extinguishing. Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . . That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished. Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . . Transformed to what? Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else. Then it is not nirvāṇa . It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa . Just like . . . Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa . You mean, but the word nirvāṇa . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda? Huh? What is that? Gopāla wants to see you. (break) Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa . But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation. Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means. Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary. Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . . Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit— nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning. Right. Words change meaning as time goes on. Huh? Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . . Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system. The life symptoms? Hmm? Symptoms of life? In this system. System? What is that system? The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism. Oh. So what is that practically? The practical result? Huh? The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different. *What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. So that is . . . To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Huh? Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . . So that if you . . . . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe. So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . . But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe. No, they've rejected the *Vedas* . Yes. But we say. But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect. *That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa har e (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand. Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people? Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them. He didn't say that. Huh? Buddha didn't say that. Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy? Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . . That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . . What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others." But these are teachings of Buddha. Huh, but . . . But . . . But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . . Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required. Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying. Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad. Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ." Good, good lessons for . . . ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly. *That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura*-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) (end) Conversation A -- March 16, 1974, Vrndavana . . . come with me? Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time. Oh. That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again. Oh. So what is your program now? Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him. Oh. And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you. Nim Karoli, how do you know him? Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert? Oh, Balarāma, he was here. Baba Ram, Baba Ram. Baba Ram Das. Oh, Baba Ram. Tomar khabar diyeche? (They gave you food?) (break) . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram. Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard. Yes. And people are also almost Indian standard. Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this. *Anti*-point. *Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā*-kālī. *Worship Mahā*-kālī? *Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads. Oh. You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls. Oh, skulls. Skulls. *They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā*-kālī. *Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. That is worship. That is religion? Well, before, when the Spanish were there. Oh. Name is Papinque. Oh. And she's supposed to represent the earth. Your parents live in Mexico City? No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya. Oh On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time. Oh. They're also vegetarians now. Acchā ? In Mexico they are vegetarians? Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians. Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from? I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break) How's your health? Health is not very good. I am not cent percent. So much time . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ghee . Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No. There is good butter. Butter? Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . . Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall. Yes. And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi." That was in Mexico. In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men. Oh. Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi. There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street. Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break) Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break) From that illness you had when you came to India . . . Yes. When you were recovering from your stroke? Oh. I think you looked in better health then. When I was . . . Yes. Yes. Since then I have no stroke. You still have massages every day? Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following? Pardon? Which philosophy you are following? Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedānta and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct) He also teaches Kṛṣṇa? Uh, he teaches, uh . . . Buddha. Buddha. Buddhism. So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy? Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too. So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God. Yeah. It's a atheistic approach. Huh? It's a atheistic approach. No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy. The approach is different, yes. Hmm? The approach is different. Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy? There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?" Achieved? Achieved. You know—attained. Achieved. Oh. And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different. If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there? Well . . . If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light. We are, approaching means . . . But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light? Yes, but what are we approaching? Huh? What are we approaching? That you have to explain. Yes. We say . . . The Absolute. We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same. Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa , but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . . I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa . That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position. How is it that I cannot explain my position? Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa . Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness. Then where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa means finished. Uh, yes. I think that . . . Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void. Etymologically it means "No wind." Huh? "No wind." No wind? The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind. No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished. That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Huh? That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa . (to guest) You want some more vegetables and purīs ? Give him. More, more. Not more. Yes. If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire. Huh? If there's an extinguishing . . . So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are? But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . . That is not extinguishing. Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . . That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished. Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . . Transformed to what? Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else. Then it is not nirvāṇa . It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa . Just like . . . Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa . You mean, but the word nirvāṇa . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . . Śrīla Prabhupāda? Huh? What is that? Gopāla wants to see you. (break) Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa . But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation. Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means. Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary. Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . . Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit— nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning. Right. Words change meaning as time goes on. Huh? Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . . Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system. The life symptoms? Hmm? Symptoms of life? In this system. System? What is that system? The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism. Oh. So what is that practically? The practical result? Huh? The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different. *What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. So that is . . . To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Huh? Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . . So that if you . . . . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe. So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . . But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe. No, they've rejected the *Vedas* . Yes. But we say. But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect. *That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa har e (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand. Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people? Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them. He didn't say that. Huh? Buddha didn't say that. Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy? Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . . That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . . What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others." But these are teachings of Buddha. Huh, but . . . But . . . But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . . Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required. Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying. Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad. Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ." Good, good lessons for . . . ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly. *That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura*-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) (end) Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay . . . a disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious . . . (indistinct) . . . is an opiate of . . . they call? It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana . To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will not patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls, and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come, then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for . . . I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and . . . Signatures of them. *Many thousand, many lakhs . And this is one point . . . and we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna ( BG 7.16). Bhajana, bhajante , this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ . And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ , miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious men, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā , and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as . . . it is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). These are the symptoms of mahātmās . So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā ? And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām : always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is . . . you come forward. You are all educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul . . . your culture. It is not 'your,' 'our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the . . . (indistinct) . . . kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana , one become free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra , and we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to make propaganda. And let them come, at least, Sunday morning. And . . . (referring to fan) It is roaming like this? Eh? It is revolving? (indistinct) . . . Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita. I think we can also fix it. No, revolving is . . . You want revolving? Is it on? Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good, though. *What, this will be propaganda, and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that, "Here the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signature. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective if sent. . . . jī? May I submit a matter? Yes. *This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends, and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat*-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and, on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by . . . of our reconsidering, we lose nothing. Hmm? By writing them a petition. But if . . . it has no effect. I don't say it has no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider, because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice . . . Then, then you have to go; public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance; essential. No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people, that the bhajanas and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because . . . *No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat*-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras . *So therefore . . . you see, the authors of the śāstras . . . śāstra big authors, who are good so*-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras , but the government, which is so-called secular or pro-Muslim and pro-Communist . . . No, no, they, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your own śāstra . Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not . . . So that is to be decided by the court. Therefore . . . I'm coming round that. What I say on the prima facie , the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is flowing. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The petition was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck, and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of decision, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was . . . I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said: "Maybe." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said: "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that, "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. "It may be." That means the option is equally open, "May not be," also. That's only a review has been taken without any basis of that . . . That is your second item. And our . . . I'll finish, I'm coming on that. Now, third is, is the Constitution rights. Now, under the Constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the Constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal, it is not for any sector. (referring to fan) It is not moving like that, revolving? No, the other one is not working. Oh. I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja. Oh, alright. But make it full force. This is full? This revolves, but I don't know how. I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There . . . there is no Indian. That's what will come in the way. Yes. That will come in the way. That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians. No, "You should have," but no Indians are coming. No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know. No, we cannot appoint. That is not . . . that is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless. Paid . . . appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them. So who is honorary coming? They are also honorary, but who is dedicating . . . So you should have in India those people . . . "I should have" means you, if you become "Should have." Otherwise . . . I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody . . . *Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian*-educated youths are come? They are not interested. Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some . . . *Then that . . . no, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the . . . but in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes, that if they make it without . . . just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that . . . there, they understand that these Americans making this satyagraha , as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty*-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that, "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out." Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners, because that will be against them. What I was meaning to . . . they should be . . . That should be taken. Therefore I say hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll . . . No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians. No, organize . . . they have actually come to me. They are attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are . . . just like in Africa, they are junglis . Uncivilized. *Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India, where the civilization is supposed to be so . . . and actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that, " Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what . . . how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā . It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti . . . (BG 7.16) Gandhi was chanting in temple raghupati rāghava . So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana , take prasāda , and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and . . . I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā . And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance. Essential, we want it. And the other thing, we are making gate in and out two gates . . . submit a plan like that, that this is . . . there will be no . . . that may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architect, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come . . ." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasāda , and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. But then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha , and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so. Yes, Rajasthan. *Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come, and we are firing. And the . . . your sva*-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government. One has to snatch the justice from them. Yes. Not by begging our mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people what they have done. All they have got this liberty, or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise, the government has the majority in the assembly. Congress Party has a majority . . . (indistinct) . . . how they will be able to desolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be desolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, unconstitutional method has been adopted because they . . . And they have smashed the speaking. Yes. The Hindustan people lied doing that. Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty. What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the . . . And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here . . . No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall. Yes. A big halls or a paṇḍal as we had held two years back. Yes. Yes. I don't know how you have got the sanction. Yes. And there the people can come in the thousands and . . . Yes, that I have already said. . . . on the neighboring stand, we should raise . . . *No, we request them that, "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not . . . why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā . What is the . . .? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands. Last year or two years back, we had maidān and same playground . . . (indistinct) Yes. . . . (indistinct) Yes, yes. Make that. Let them have saṅkīrtana . Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a . . . "Better late than never." But this propaganda should be done. (break) Now . . . now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple place hundred chairs so that many people cannot stand; they will sit comfortable without . . . with the . . . with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasāda , whatever you can, "Please take prasāda ." Give him plate. Make this way. What I was saying apart from all that . . . in my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a Life Member. But as a Life Member I can help on the police commissioner also. Eh? In writing, I can help on the police commissioner. Yes, let him come. Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a Life Member of our relation. No, not as our lawyer. That . . . no, I say . . . On your personal capacity. Yes. I say. Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that. "As a Life Member, I am suffering because of this reason, that if there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually." No, you can go to other temple. No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied? Then you are spiritually not improving. I beg your pardon? Then you are not spiritually improving. No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them. That is not very strong reason. No, but what I say, they may be strong, but I say I am stronger than them. No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the . . . No, no. I . . . . . . that your idea means our idea, carried. Not necessarily. (break) Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion. Certainly, it's my honest opinion. But the thing is, I want to do something solid. No, but what I say is my . . . Even if you write, they'll not take care very much. No, but, uh, I am hopeful. You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that . . . Unless they have got some . . . Eh? The . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi. Eh? Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi. Delhi. You see, if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans . . . No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs. But if they will logically . . . Logic—there is no logic. No, but what I say . . . if they are appeased . . . Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword. No, but what I say . . . the basic problem is that the central against, if the Delhi government is against . . . That I know that they are against. If the Delhi government is against, therefore they are . . . they are not disclosing their weakness. And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that . . . many politicians have said. In London, the High Commissioner, he said: "Swāmījī, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharashtrian, Pant. Pant. So . . . but we cannot do anything of this way. No, but if the central is against, then my logic says . . . Central is against. If the central is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi? Eh? Then how we have got a permission in Delhi? What is that permission? Temple permission building. We don't have . . . we haven't built a temple in Delhi. We don't have a temple in Delhi. No, no. Then what about the permission in the Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana? Māyāpur, that doesn't require any permission. What? That doesn't require any permission. That is the village. Ācchā . And what about this Vṛndāvana? That also, they gave permission with great difficulty. Hyderabad? Hyderabad, I do not know. Hyderabad is easier, because the people are very much in favor of us. Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year, Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city is so . . . formerly, it was planned that, "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city? Yes, yes. So nasty that nobody will go there. But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena? That is very good. Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner, from breaking the temple. Yes. Breaking the temple. But one thing is . . . my fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go." (indistinct) . . . India. And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka ? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why . . . they will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals svāmīs have told them, "Yes . . ." But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India. Hmm? As you rightly say, that if we do anything actively, then they may see your boys going out of India, foreigners, Americans. They will kick us. "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground, and they will say that, "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons. Any reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you." Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, or try to get another places, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys. No, same action, but that is our propaganda—preach. Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them. That we are already doing. We are holding meeting. We are not going to preach against them. No, no, here . . . We will simply present our philosophy. No, but then your philosophy is only, you see . . . you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking the signatures. Thousands. Oh, yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say . . . Even though you do not say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals. So then they . . . Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India." But it's clear agitation. If we have . . . satyagraha . (indistinct) . . . the propaganda is also part of the agitation no? Propaganda of collecting the signatures . . . (break) So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with . . . Who is arranging for this higher level? (aside) Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? Eh? But you do not know. This, you . . . (indistinct) . . . never close . . . (end) Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay . . . a disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious . . . (indistinct) . . . is an opiate of . . . they call? It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana . To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will not patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls, and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come, then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for . . . I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and . . . Signatures of them. *Many thousand, many lakhs . And this is one point . . . and we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna ( BG 7.16). Bhajana, bhajante , this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ . And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ , miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious men, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā , and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as . . . it is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). These are the symptoms of mahātmās . So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā ? And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām : always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is . . . you come forward. You are all educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul . . . your culture. It is not 'your,' 'our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the . . . (indistinct) . . . kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana , one become free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra , and we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to make propaganda. And let them come, at least, Sunday morning. And . . . (referring to fan) It is roaming like this? Eh? It is revolving? (indistinct) . . . Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita. I think we can also fix it. No, revolving is . . . You want revolving? Is it on? Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good, though. *What, this will be propaganda, and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that, "Here the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signature. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective if sent. . . . jī? May I submit a matter? Yes. *This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends, and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat*-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and, on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by . . . of our reconsidering, we lose nothing. Hmm? By writing them a petition. But if . . . it has no effect. I don't say it has no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider, because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice . . . Then, then you have to go; public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance; essential. No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people, that the bhajanas and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because . . . *No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat*-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras . *So therefore . . . you see, the authors of the śāstras . . . śāstra big authors, who are good so*-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras , but the government, which is so-called secular or pro-Muslim and pro-Communist . . . No, no, they, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your own śāstra . Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not . . . So that is to be decided by the court. Therefore . . . I'm coming round that. What I say on the prima facie , the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is flowing. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The petition was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck, and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of decision, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was . . . I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said: "Maybe." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said: "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that, "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. "It may be." That means the option is equally open, "May not be," also. That's only a review has been taken without any basis of that . . . That is your second item. And our . . . I'll finish, I'm coming on that. Now, third is, is the Constitution rights. Now, under the Constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the Constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal, it is not for any sector. (referring to fan) It is not moving like that, revolving? No, the other one is not working. Oh. I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja. Oh, alright. But make it full force. This is full? This revolves, but I don't know how. I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There . . . there is no Indian. That's what will come in the way. Yes. That will come in the way. That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians. No, "You should have," but no Indians are coming. No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know. No, we cannot appoint. That is not . . . that is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless. Paid . . . appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them. So who is honorary coming? They are also honorary, but who is dedicating . . . So you should have in India those people . . . "I should have" means you, if you become "Should have." Otherwise . . . I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody . . . *Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian*-educated youths are come? They are not interested. Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some . . . *Then that . . . no, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the . . . but in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes, that if they make it without . . . just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that . . . there, they understand that these Americans making this satyagraha , as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty*-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that, "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out." Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners, because that will be against them. What I was meaning to . . . they should be . . . That should be taken. Therefore I say hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll . . . No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians. No, organize . . . they have actually come to me. They are attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are . . . just like in Africa, they are junglis . Uncivilized. *Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India, where the civilization is supposed to be so . . . and actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that, " Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what . . . how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā . It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti . . . (BG 7.16) Gandhi was chanting in temple raghupati rāghava . So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana , take prasāda , and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and . . . I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā . And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance. Essential, we want it. And the other thing, we are making gate in and out two gates . . . submit a plan like that, that this is . . . there will be no . . . that may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architect, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come . . ." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasāda , and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. But then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha , and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so. Yes, Rajasthan. *Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come, and we are firing. And the . . . your sva*-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government. One has to snatch the justice from them. Yes. Not by begging our mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people what they have done. All they have got this liberty, or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise, the government has the majority in the assembly. Congress Party has a majority . . . (indistinct) . . . how they will be able to desolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be desolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, unconstitutional method has been adopted because they . . . And they have smashed the speaking. Yes. The Hindustan people lied doing that. Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty. What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the . . . And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here . . . No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall. Yes. A big halls or a paṇḍal as we had held two years back. Yes. Yes. I don't know how you have got the sanction. Yes. And there the people can come in the thousands and . . . Yes, that I have already said. . . . on the neighboring stand, we should raise . . . *No, we request them that, "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not . . . why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā . What is the . . .? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands. Last year or two years back, we had maidān and same playground . . . (indistinct) Yes. . . . (indistinct) Yes, yes. Make that. Let them have saṅkīrtana . Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a . . . "Better late than never." But this propaganda should be done. (break) Now . . . now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple place hundred chairs so that many people cannot stand; they will sit comfortable without . . . with the . . . with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasāda , whatever you can, "Please take prasāda ." Give him plate. Make this way. What I was saying apart from all that . . . in my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a Life Member. But as a Life Member I can help on the police commissioner also. Eh? In writing, I can help on the police commissioner. Yes, let him come. Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a Life Member of our relation. No, not as our lawyer. That . . . no, I say . . . On your personal capacity. Yes. I say. Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that. "As a Life Member, I am suffering because of this reason, that if there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually." No, you can go to other temple. No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied? Then you are spiritually not improving. I beg your pardon? Then you are not spiritually improving. No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them. That is not very strong reason. No, but what I say, they may be strong, but I say I am stronger than them. No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the . . . No, no. I . . . . . . that your idea means our idea, carried. Not necessarily. (break) Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion. Certainly, it's my honest opinion. But the thing is, I want to do something solid. No, but what I say is my . . . Even if you write, they'll not take care very much. No, but, uh, I am hopeful. You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that . . . Unless they have got some . . . Eh? The . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi. Eh? Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi. Delhi. You see, if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans . . . No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs. But if they will logically . . . Logic—there is no logic. No, but what I say . . . if they are appeased . . . Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword. No, but what I say . . . the basic problem is that the central against, if the Delhi government is against . . . That I know that they are against. If the Delhi government is against, therefore they are . . . they are not disclosing their weakness. And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that . . . many politicians have said. In London, the High Commissioner, he said: "Swāmījī, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharashtrian, Pant. Pant. So . . . but we cannot do anything of this way. No, but if the central is against, then my logic says . . . Central is against. If the central is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi? Eh? Then how we have got a permission in Delhi? What is that permission? Temple permission building. We don't have . . . we haven't built a temple in Delhi. We don't have a temple in Delhi. No, no. Then what about the permission in the Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana? Māyāpur, that doesn't require any permission. What? That doesn't require any permission. That is the village. Ācchā . And what about this Vṛndāvana? That also, they gave permission with great difficulty. Hyderabad? Hyderabad, I do not know. Hyderabad is easier, because the people are very much in favor of us. Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year, Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city is so . . . formerly, it was planned that, "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city? Yes, yes. So nasty that nobody will go there. But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena? That is very good. Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner, from breaking the temple. Yes. Breaking the temple. But one thing is . . . my fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go." (indistinct) . . . India. And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka ? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why . . . they will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals svāmīs have told them, "Yes . . ." But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India. Hmm? As you rightly say, that if we do anything actively, then they may see your boys going out of India, foreigners, Americans. They will kick us. "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground, and they will say that, "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons. Any reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you." Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, or try to get another places, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys. No, same action, but that is our propaganda—preach. Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them. That we are already doing. We are holding meeting. We are not going to preach against them. No, no, here . . . We will simply present our philosophy. No, but then your philosophy is only, you see . . . you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking the signatures. Thousands. Oh, yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say . . . Even though you do not say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals. So then they . . . Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India." But it's clear agitation. If we have . . . satyagraha . (indistinct) . . . the propaganda is also part of the agitation no? Propaganda of collecting the signatures . . . (break) So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with . . . Who is arranging for this higher level? (aside) Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? Eh? But you do not know. This, you . . . (indistinct) . . . never close . . . (end) Conversation -- March 27, 1974, Bombay (Video 03:09) So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position. Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation . . . (break) . . . before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained . . . *(aside) . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This jagad is avyakta , imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said: "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? (break) *. . . because I have heard so many of these so*-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gītā or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling . . . No, no, how they can explain? They don't have an inkling. *They cannot touch even Bhagavad*-gītā . They have no qualification. : They have no understanding. *Their speaking of Bhagavad*-gītā is artificial. Yes. *They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto 'si . One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad*-gītā . Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī"s asrama . . . Mmm, mmm. . . . and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized. Maybe (laughs). Jaya . Jaya Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that? Without a doubt. (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa *Indian woman: Hum Shimla gaye. Hum to town me aise hi thoda ghum rahe the, to waha thoda thak gaye the, rest karne lag gaye. Idhar Brahmananda Swami, do hi to the, bas thoda lecture shuru ho gaya. Abhi baithe to kehne lage - kaun hai sannyasi maharaj, ye*-wo. Bas batein chalti-chalti, kiske follower hai? Ye A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji ke hai. Kaha, ye kya, bhakti . . . abhi minto ke andar itna jan waha ikattha ho gaya, ke bas ye log apni-apni baat baat to kar rhe the lekin un sab ke daant Brahmananda Swami je ne aise khatte kar diye, tab wo itne please, request, sorry . . . ye wo karne lage ki humne jo apke samne kuch bhi kaha hai, hum knowledge nahi rakhte, humko shama karna aur hum ye chahte hai ke aap humare yaha ake program dijiye. Humare paas to time hi nhi tha, hum ek din to rahe hai waha lekin wo itne icchuk the ki abhi humare yaha zarur program rakhiye, humko . . . jo apne knowledge pai hai, hum bhi chahte hai ki hum bhi usko grahan kare aur humare bacche, humare ye Shimla log, sab usko prapt kare. Yaha tak humne . . . ek uncle hai mere waha, unko keh kar ayi hun ki waha ek church hai bilkul top ke upar. Maine bola ki koi lene wala na ho to uski baatchit karke rakhna, phir baat karenge ake. To unko keh kar hi aye hai. Wo church agar mil jaye to bahut . . . (We had gone to Shimla and as we were taking a tour of the city, we became very tired. Thus we sat down to rest while Brahmananda Swami started a lecture. Immediately people started asking - who is this sannyāsi Mahārāja, whose follower is he etc. I told them that he is the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Within minutes, a huge crowd gathered and they started challenging him with various questions but Brahmananda Swami defeated them so expertly that they had to beg forgiveness from him. They admitted their ignorance and asked him to organize a program in Shimla so that everyone including their children could receive the knowledge that Brahmananda Swami possessed. I even went to the extent of requesting my uncle to negotiate with the owners of a dilapidated church on a hilltop so that we can try to acquire it in the future. If we can get that church, it would be great . . .) : We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras . The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas . We have to get a special police permission. Where? All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance. Where? In Hrisikesa, Hardwar. Oh. So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama , special permission. Which asrama ? What is that asrama ? Which asrama ? Any asrama . *Gītā* Bhavan . . . Oh. . . . Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama . They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis , their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra . Therefore, we can understand that what you're speaking is being realized in the heart because it's creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance. *Indian woman: Hum is baar Kumbh ke mele par gaye the, humne apna ek program sabne milkar kiya hai. Kabhi sab jate hai to bahut accha program hone wala tha. Bahut kuch, bahut badhiya advertisement ho jani lekin kuch minister gaye huye the. Hum jo gaye the, hum to do*-tin devotee the jo gaye. (We went to the Kumbha-melā this time and collectively organised our own program. It could have been very nice with wonderful advertisements but some ministers were present there at that time. We were only a couple of devotees . . .) (break) *So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. (break) But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains, and pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Is it not a fact? Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a fact. The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian? No. It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra , When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is (laughing) every, feeling . . . if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way . . . Kya ji, aise ho sakta hai kya? (Tell me, is it possible?) . . . simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 27, 1974, Bombay (Video 03:09) So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position. Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation . . . (break) . . . before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained . . . *(aside) . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This jagad is avyakta , imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said: "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? (break) *. . . because I have heard so many of these so*-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gītā or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling . . . No, no, how they can explain? They don't have an inkling. *They cannot touch even Bhagavad*-gītā . They have no qualification. : They have no understanding. *Their speaking of Bhagavad*-gītā is artificial. Yes. *They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto 'si . One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad*-gītā . Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī"s asrama . . . Mmm, mmm. . . . and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized. Maybe (laughs). Jaya . Jaya Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that? Without a doubt. (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa *Indian woman: Hum Shimla gaye. Hum to town me aise hi thoda ghum rahe the, to waha thoda thak gaye the, rest karne lag gaye. Idhar Brahmananda Swami, do hi to the, bas thoda lecture shuru ho gaya. Abhi baithe to kehne lage - kaun hai sannyasi maharaj, ye*-wo. Bas batein chalti-chalti, kiske follower hai? Ye A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji ke hai. Kaha, ye kya, bhakti . . . abhi minto ke andar itna jan waha ikattha ho gaya, ke bas ye log apni-apni baat baat to kar rhe the lekin un sab ke daant Brahmananda Swami je ne aise khatte kar diye, tab wo itne please, request, sorry . . . ye wo karne lage ki humne jo apke samne kuch bhi kaha hai, hum knowledge nahi rakhte, humko shama karna aur hum ye chahte hai ke aap humare yaha ake program dijiye. Humare paas to time hi nhi tha, hum ek din to rahe hai waha lekin wo itne icchuk the ki abhi humare yaha zarur program rakhiye, humko . . . jo apne knowledge pai hai, hum bhi chahte hai ki hum bhi usko grahan kare aur humare bacche, humare ye Shimla log, sab usko prapt kare. Yaha tak humne . . . ek uncle hai mere waha, unko keh kar ayi hun ki waha ek church hai bilkul top ke upar. Maine bola ki koi lene wala na ho to uski baatchit karke rakhna, phir baat karenge ake. To unko keh kar hi aye hai. Wo church agar mil jaye to bahut . . . (We had gone to Shimla and as we were taking a tour of the city, we became very tired. Thus we sat down to rest while Brahmananda Swami started a lecture. Immediately people started asking - who is this sannyāsi Mahārāja, whose follower is he etc. I told them that he is the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Within minutes, a huge crowd gathered and they started challenging him with various questions but Brahmananda Swami defeated them so expertly that they had to beg forgiveness from him. They admitted their ignorance and asked him to organize a program in Shimla so that everyone including their children could receive the knowledge that Brahmananda Swami possessed. I even went to the extent of requesting my uncle to negotiate with the owners of a dilapidated church on a hilltop so that we can try to acquire it in the future. If we can get that church, it would be great . . .) : We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras . The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas . We have to get a special police permission. Where? All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance. Where? In Hrisikesa, Hardwar. Oh. So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama , special permission. Which asrama ? What is that asrama ? Which asrama ? Any asrama . *Gītā* Bhavan . . . Oh. . . . Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama . They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis , their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra . Therefore, we can understand that what you're speaking is being realized in the heart because it's creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance. *Indian woman: Hum is baar Kumbh ke mele par gaye the, humne apna ek program sabne milkar kiya hai. Kabhi sab jate hai to bahut accha program hone wala tha. Bahut kuch, bahut badhiya advertisement ho jani lekin kuch minister gaye huye the. Hum jo gaye the, hum to do*-tin devotee the jo gaye. (We went to the Kumbha-melā this time and collectively organised our own program. It could have been very nice with wonderful advertisements but some ministers were present there at that time. We were only a couple of devotees . . .) (break) *So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. (break) But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains, and pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Is it not a fact? Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a fact. The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian? No. It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra , When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is (laughing) every, feeling . . . if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way . . . Kya ji, aise ho sakta hai kya? (Tell me, is it possible?) . . . simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break) (end) Interview -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad . . . I shall speak? First His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak something about our philosophy for a few minutes, and then you can ask questions. Yasya —anyone; asti —one, anyone who has; bhagavati —in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; *akiñcanā*-bhakti —unalloyed devotion, faith; *sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ —with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ : if one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities. So at the present moment, the godless civilization. Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of *Mahābhārata* that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge. Because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life. *In the śāstras we see that Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa, He taught His one hundred sons, "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working hard like cats and dogs for sense gratification." Ultimate end is sense gratification, satisfying the senses. This is the business of the cats and hogs, or dogs and hogs. The hog is whole day working to find out stool: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he gets some stool, little strength, immediately sex life, without any discrimination whether she is mother or sister or daughter. This kind of life is described in the śāstras as hog civilization. So at the present moment, without any reference to God consciousness, people are being taught to satisfy the senses, work very hard, and ruin the chance of human life. *This human life is specially meant for solving all the problems of life. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam . . . (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā . Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youthhood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of bodies, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. *But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ . And there are so many different varieties of bodies. *There are nine lakhs varieties of life in the water. Similarly, twenty lakhs varieties of life in the trees and plants. Then there are insects, then there are birds, then there are animals, then there is human being. So this human form of body is obtained after evolution of many millions and trillions of years. It should not be . . . this is a chance for stopping this business of repetition of birth and death. But people, they have no knowledge how to stop it. Although everything is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , everything is explained, but we are not utilizing. We are manufacturing our own concocted knowledge. Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical—everything is there. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for spreading the knowledge contained in the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). After understanding Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna affirmed, "Kṛṣṇa, You are Para-brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Brahman . . . every living entity is Brahman, or everything is Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is a fact. But Para-brahman is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the Vedic version. He is the Supreme. So unless we accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā ? So that we have to accept, and His instruction, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā , annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajña. Yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ . In this way people can be happy. *So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa , and . . . at least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not . . . it is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa , they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . So if you associate with sattva-guṇa , then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa , then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa , they are in knowledge. *Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas , and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . . . (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa . The next class, kṣatriyas , who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya , they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce food grains and give protection to the cows. *So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā . And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Thank you very much. Haribol . (break) Now we open the placement to the questions. Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can . . . *Since you are following Bhagavad*-gītā , do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy? *Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt . So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living man. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. Sorry, what I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one, as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says . . . *We are speaking from the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; *you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī , and my body is deha . So deha*-dehī , there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room; I am not this room. Similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is called illusion. What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yes, ultimate aim is that . . . . . . (indistinct) No, I will say ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). See, our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life. Is that perfection possible in one life? Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that: We change our body on account of sinful activities. But if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform. *As soon as you become unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you immediately transcend this material platform. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate . You remain in the spiritual platform. And if you die in the spiritual platform, then you go to the spiritual world. But isn't the bhajana that you do . . . (indistinct) . . . for concentration? Yes, bhajana is concentration, reading is concentration . . . No, besides that, any other type of concentration you do? What do you mean by concentration? Meditation. Meditation. *Yes. When you think . . . dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , in dhyāna , in meditation, they always see the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu within the heart. So that is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ . The jñānīs , they see by cultivation of knowledge, and the bhaktas , they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is understood from different angles of vision. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). That is Absolute Truth. Yaj jñānam advayam. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. The same thing in different angle of vision. The jñānīs , they realize as impersonal Brahman. The yogīs , they realize as Paramātmā situated in everyone's heart. And the bhaktas , they realize as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the thing is the same. It is the different angle of vision only. What exactly is guru's role in your system? *To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā , constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt (SB 5.5.18). Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease." . . . (indistinct question) *The Americans and the Europeans, they are fed up with this material type of civilization. They are . . . they know that spiritual life is there in India. They understand it. Therefore, any svāmī goes there, they go round him to take some spiritual instruction. Unfortunately, mostly they go who have no knowledge. They cannot give them right knowledge. So for the time being they may surround them, but after some time they disperse, because they do not get actually. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, now many svāmīs went there and they preached Bhagavad*-gītā also, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa for the last hundreds of years. But now Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, and people are taking it by hundreds, thousands. So they are after some knowledge, spiritual knowledge, from India, but our so-called svāmīs , they go, they do not give actual information of the Indian spiritual culture. Therefore they are practically deceived. But this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we do not change anything. In the Bhagavad-gītā you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So we are teaching them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." So they are accepting. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching that, "Just always think of Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and you will remember Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "And just become devotee. Worship the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. Become His bhakta ." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . "Worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Māṁ namaskuru : "Offer your obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." So we are teaching this arcanam . We have got hundred temples like this all over the world. And hundreds and thousands are joining. So this is practical. So they are accepting. Now it is our duty to give the actual Vedic culture, which is concise, summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sarvopaniṣad-gavaḥ , the essence of all Upaniṣads teaching. *So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of . . . but here Bhagavad*-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13): "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "You just produce sufficient food grains and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña ." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā ? Do you think the Russian society is not put it off by this bhajana ? Russian? Society. I do not know Russian society, but I can say I have been in Moscow. The people are not happy. That I can say. How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God in the sense of seeing the Lord's image in their heart? What is the mean, that? How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God . . . Vision of God you can see also. Here is vision of God. In the sense of seeing Lord in their own heart? No, no. That is, of course, later on. First of all see here is God, vision of God. Everyone can see. It is public. Why you ask my disciples? You can see also. No, no. Just like, vision of God, here is Kṛṣṇa. That is physical vision. That's all. Physical means vision; your vision is also physical. Your vision is not spiritual. Whatever you see with your eyes, that is physical. That is not anything beyond physical. See with spiritual eyes. Spiritual eyes, that's all right. But first of all you have to see whatever eyes you have got. You have got physical eyes. Why you are talking of spiritual eyes? Well, sir, that only, we are, all these things would learn that spiritual eyes. *That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). When you develop love for God, then you can have that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva . He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo . . . that you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. I don't say that . . . Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see the spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for that position. *That is your God submission. In regards to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the West—like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with . . . Christianity or society . . .? And do you also say the so*-called svāmīs . . . Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or a Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone. The money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact. But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world? Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran. Yes? Yes, yes. We have got in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes. You have got a center established in Iran? Yes. Within what time? Recently? I think about two years. Tehran. Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. In everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . How do they respond in China? Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel . . . everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders, that's all. You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy? Yes. In this context, how do you see the government of India? I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America the president is not liked. Swāmījī, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality. Yes. How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country? Because you did not lead them. You did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books. Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders? Where is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think . . . if the businessman is not spiritual leader . . . So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs? *Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā , it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand, m an-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that, "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee. You just worship Me, offer your . . . " And Dr. Radhakrishnan says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see. This is . . . he is a scholar, he is a philosopher. Even Gandhi says that, "There was no Kṛṣṇa, it is all mythology." Then? How people will learn it? If Kṛṣṇa because mythology, the Bhagavad-gītā becomes imagination and anyone can interpret in any way, then where is the teaching? Are the teachings themself . . . (indistinct) *No, no. First of all try to understand that what is the defect. The defect is that malinterpretation, bad interpretation. Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then what right you have got to say that, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad-gītā ? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write in your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā ? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous. It has spoiled the whole country. You write your own philosophy. But why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and misinterpret it and mislead the people? That is my protest. (indistinct) . . . Hyderabad project? Huh? Hyderabad project. Hyderabad? What is your plan for Hyderabad project for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct)? What is that? What is your Hyderabad project? Hyderabad project, that he knows, Mahāṁśa. What your goal, to plan now in India? Your goal to plan now in India? How long you will be staying and . . . (indistinct) No, I am going to see Bālajī, that's all. Bālajī. And then go back to the States? No. Yeah I will go to Europe and . . . I'll go to London, then to Paris, then Germany, then Sweden, and Switzerland. I have got temples there. In Germany we have got four temples. In Sweden we have got. In Switzerland we have got. France we have got. In England we have got four, five. No government is placing obstacles? No, they receive it very nicely. They understand that, "Swāmījī is doing something nice." Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Interview -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad . . . I shall speak? First His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak something about our philosophy for a few minutes, and then you can ask questions. Yasya —anyone; asti —one, anyone who has; bhagavati —in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; *akiñcanā*-bhakti —unalloyed devotion, faith; *sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ —with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ : if one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities. So at the present moment, the godless civilization. Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of *Mahābhārata* that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge. Because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life. *In the śāstras we see that Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa, He taught His one hundred sons, "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working hard like cats and dogs for sense gratification." Ultimate end is sense gratification, satisfying the senses. This is the business of the cats and hogs, or dogs and hogs. The hog is whole day working to find out stool: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he gets some stool, little strength, immediately sex life, without any discrimination whether she is mother or sister or daughter. This kind of life is described in the śāstras as hog civilization. So at the present moment, without any reference to God consciousness, people are being taught to satisfy the senses, work very hard, and ruin the chance of human life. *This human life is specially meant for solving all the problems of life. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam . . . (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā . Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youthhood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of bodies, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. *But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ . And there are so many different varieties of bodies. *There are nine lakhs varieties of life in the water. Similarly, twenty lakhs varieties of life in the trees and plants. Then there are insects, then there are birds, then there are animals, then there is human being. So this human form of body is obtained after evolution of many millions and trillions of years. It should not be . . . this is a chance for stopping this business of repetition of birth and death. But people, they have no knowledge how to stop it. Although everything is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , everything is explained, but we are not utilizing. We are manufacturing our own concocted knowledge. Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical—everything is there. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for spreading the knowledge contained in the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). After understanding Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna affirmed, "Kṛṣṇa, You are Para-brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Brahman . . . every living entity is Brahman, or everything is Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is a fact. But Para-brahman is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the Vedic version. He is the Supreme. So unless we accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā ? So that we have to accept, and His instruction, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā , annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajña. Yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ . In this way people can be happy. *So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa , and . . . at least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not . . . it is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa , they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . So if you associate with sattva-guṇa , then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa , then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa , they are in knowledge. *Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas , and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . . . (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa . The next class, kṣatriyas , who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya , they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce food grains and give protection to the cows. *So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā . And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Thank you very much. Haribol . (break) Now we open the placement to the questions. Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can . . . *Since you are following Bhagavad*-gītā , do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy? *Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt . So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living man. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. Sorry, what I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one, as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says . . . *We are speaking from the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; *you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī , and my body is deha . So deha*-dehī , there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room; I am not this room. Similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is called illusion. What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yes, ultimate aim is that . . . . . . (indistinct) No, I will say ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). See, our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life. Is that perfection possible in one life? Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that: We change our body on account of sinful activities. But if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform. *As soon as you become unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you immediately transcend this material platform. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate . You remain in the spiritual platform. And if you die in the spiritual platform, then you go to the spiritual world. But isn't the bhajana that you do . . . (indistinct) . . . for concentration? Yes, bhajana is concentration, reading is concentration . . . No, besides that, any other type of concentration you do? What do you mean by concentration? Meditation. Meditation. *Yes. When you think . . . dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , in dhyāna , in meditation, they always see the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu within the heart. So that is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ . The jñānīs , they see by cultivation of knowledge, and the bhaktas , they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is understood from different angles of vision. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). That is Absolute Truth. Yaj jñānam advayam. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. The same thing in different angle of vision. The jñānīs , they realize as impersonal Brahman. The yogīs , they realize as Paramātmā situated in everyone's heart. And the bhaktas , they realize as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the thing is the same. It is the different angle of vision only. What exactly is guru's role in your system? *To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā , constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt (SB 5.5.18). Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease." . . . (indistinct question) *The Americans and the Europeans, they are fed up with this material type of civilization. They are . . . they know that spiritual life is there in India. They understand it. Therefore, any svāmī goes there, they go round him to take some spiritual instruction. Unfortunately, mostly they go who have no knowledge. They cannot give them right knowledge. So for the time being they may surround them, but after some time they disperse, because they do not get actually. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, now many svāmīs went there and they preached Bhagavad*-gītā also, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa for the last hundreds of years. But now Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, and people are taking it by hundreds, thousands. So they are after some knowledge, spiritual knowledge, from India, but our so-called svāmīs , they go, they do not give actual information of the Indian spiritual culture. Therefore they are practically deceived. But this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we do not change anything. In the Bhagavad-gītā you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So we are teaching them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." So they are accepting. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching that, "Just always think of Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and you will remember Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "And just become devotee. Worship the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. Become His bhakta ." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . "Worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Māṁ namaskuru : "Offer your obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." So we are teaching this arcanam . We have got hundred temples like this all over the world. And hundreds and thousands are joining. So this is practical. So they are accepting. Now it is our duty to give the actual Vedic culture, which is concise, summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sarvopaniṣad-gavaḥ , the essence of all Upaniṣads teaching. *So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of . . . but here Bhagavad*-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13): "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "You just produce sufficient food grains and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña ." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā ? Do you think the Russian society is not put it off by this bhajana ? Russian? Society. I do not know Russian society, but I can say I have been in Moscow. The people are not happy. That I can say. How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God in the sense of seeing the Lord's image in their heart? What is the mean, that? How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God . . . Vision of God you can see also. Here is vision of God. In the sense of seeing Lord in their own heart? No, no. That is, of course, later on. First of all see here is God, vision of God. Everyone can see. It is public. Why you ask my disciples? You can see also. No, no. Just like, vision of God, here is Kṛṣṇa. That is physical vision. That's all. Physical means vision; your vision is also physical. Your vision is not spiritual. Whatever you see with your eyes, that is physical. That is not anything beyond physical. See with spiritual eyes. Spiritual eyes, that's all right. But first of all you have to see whatever eyes you have got. You have got physical eyes. Why you are talking of spiritual eyes? Well, sir, that only, we are, all these things would learn that spiritual eyes. *That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). When you develop love for God, then you can have that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva . He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo . . . that you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. I don't say that . . . Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see the spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for that position. *That is your God submission. In regards to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the West—like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with . . . Christianity or society . . .? And do you also say the so*-called svāmīs . . . Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or a Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone. The money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact. But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world? Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran. Yes? Yes, yes. We have got in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes. You have got a center established in Iran? Yes. Within what time? Recently? I think about two years. Tehran. Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. In everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . How do they respond in China? Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel . . . everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders, that's all. You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy? Yes. In this context, how do you see the government of India? I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America the president is not liked. Swāmījī, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality. Yes. How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country? Because you did not lead them. You did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books. Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders? Where is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think . . . if the businessman is not spiritual leader . . . So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs? *Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā , it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand, m an-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that, "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee. You just worship Me, offer your . . . " And Dr. Radhakrishnan says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see. This is . . . he is a scholar, he is a philosopher. Even Gandhi says that, "There was no Kṛṣṇa, it is all mythology." Then? How people will learn it? If Kṛṣṇa because mythology, the Bhagavad-gītā becomes imagination and anyone can interpret in any way, then where is the teaching? Are the teachings themself . . . (indistinct) *No, no. First of all try to understand that what is the defect. The defect is that malinterpretation, bad interpretation. Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then what right you have got to say that, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad-gītā ? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write in your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā ? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous. It has spoiled the whole country. You write your own philosophy. But why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and misinterpret it and mislead the people? That is my protest. (indistinct) . . . Hyderabad project? Huh? Hyderabad project. Hyderabad? What is your plan for Hyderabad project for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct)? What is that? What is your Hyderabad project? Hyderabad project, that he knows, Mahāṁśa. What your goal, to plan now in India? Your goal to plan now in India? How long you will be staying and . . . (indistinct) No, I am going to see Bālajī, that's all. Bālajī. And then go back to the States? No. Yeah I will go to Europe and . . . I'll go to London, then to Paris, then Germany, then Sweden, and Switzerland. I have got temples there. In Germany we have got four temples. In Sweden we have got. In Switzerland we have got. France we have got. In England we have got four, five. No government is placing obstacles? No, they receive it very nicely. They understand that, "Swāmījī is doing something nice." Jaya . Thank you very much. Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Conversation -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad . . . Kerala? Eh? Yes. Kerala? You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma? He was blaspheming our Society. He was saying . . . (indistinct) *I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that, because there may be one . . . because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals, but you do not become rascal. He may be . . . (break) . . . "Who will read Hindi? You do not . . . who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Mahārāja . . ." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru write his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still, Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English*-medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in family they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman—he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect, and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to . . . and even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Not compulsory. Eh? Not compulsory. Not compulsory. So? *Not Hindi. Also they are developing local languages. They are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English*-medium schools. Yes. But these are also . . . you study in the local languages. Don't study English. They are regulated. Now it seems like every college. Only few college . . . (indistinct) Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English. This is what I call cheating, to keep this. They are cheaters. Hyderabad e emon keu nei je English jane na. (In Hyderabad, there is not a single person who doesn't know English.) . . . (indistinct) . . . in English. That is their local language. Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees, they don't . . .?" Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some section they understand English. Everywhere. English is common language. Yes. We cannot avoid English. Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English. There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose. Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand. English in the West is the international language . . . (indistinct) They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi. Fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange. He was blasting our Society. That's why I let him be that. No, still, you should not say like that. . . . (indistinct) Eh? English, they speak. That's the language they can understand, many things. And all the people can read it. We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say: "No, no, no, I cannot accept English?" Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making Life Members, but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no. I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? (indistinct) . . . at least one more . . . (indistinct) *I know one boy, he is about forty*-two years, but he, he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any . . . prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhanga Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over, now he is useless. He does not get any service, although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English—he does not get any responsible position. He will not learn? Eh? He does not want to learn? No, he was trying to learn, but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious. If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will . . . (indistinct) . . . local languages. Because those others don't speak English anymore. No, local language is required. Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language. Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also you should learn, but . . . we can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there. (break) . . . getting them into all the schools. Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted. *This is how it would work. This is Akṣayānanda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he gives them . . . sells them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa books and Nectar of Devotion , like this. *Best thing is that, "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher, Indian religion, Indian philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā . Then . . . he has written so many books, but not a single in Hindi." Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India. Yes, he is from Madras. Yes, he doesn't know. No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyāsa , sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swāmījī, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end) Conversation -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad . . . Kerala? Eh? Yes. Kerala? You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma? He was blaspheming our Society. He was saying . . . (indistinct) *I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that, because there may be one . . . because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals, but you do not become rascal. He may be . . . (break) . . . "Who will read Hindi? You do not . . . who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Mahārāja . . ." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru write his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still, Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English*-medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in family they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman—he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect, and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to . . . and even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Not compulsory. Eh? Not compulsory. Not compulsory. So? *Not Hindi. Also they are developing local languages. They are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English*-medium schools. Yes. But these are also . . . you study in the local languages. Don't study English. They are regulated. Now it seems like every college. Only few college . . . (indistinct) Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English. This is what I call cheating, to keep this. They are cheaters. Hyderabad e emon keu nei je English jane na. (In Hyderabad, there is not a single person who doesn't know English.) . . . (indistinct) . . . in English. That is their local language. Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees, they don't . . .?" Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some section they understand English. Everywhere. English is common language. Yes. We cannot avoid English. Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English. There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose. Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand. English in the West is the international language . . . (indistinct) They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi. Fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange. He was blasting our Society. That's why I let him be that. No, still, you should not say like that. . . . (indistinct) Eh? English, they speak. That's the language they can understand, many things. And all the people can read it. We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say: "No, no, no, I cannot accept English?" Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making Life Members, but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no. I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? (indistinct) . . . at least one more . . . (indistinct) *I know one boy, he is about forty*-two years, but he, he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any . . . prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhanga Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over, now he is useless. He does not get any service, although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English—he does not get any responsible position. He will not learn? Eh? He does not want to learn? No, he was trying to learn, but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious. If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will . . . (indistinct) . . . local languages. Because those others don't speak English anymore. No, local language is required. Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language. Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also you should learn, but . . . we can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there. (break) . . . getting them into all the schools. Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted. *This is how it would work. This is Akṣayānanda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he gives them . . . sells them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa books and Nectar of Devotion , like this. *Best thing is that, "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher, Indian religion, Indian philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā . Then . . . he has written so many books, but not a single in Hindi." Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India. Yes, he is from Madras. Yes, he doesn't know. No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyāsa , sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swāmījī, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end) Conversation -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati Secretary, he said: "You write in your books that the . . . that your movement by Lord Caitanya is the . . . as if it's the most exclusive thing." He said: "But actually, in India the Rāmānuja is a more prominent Vaiṣṇava sect." So, as I understand our claim, it's based on the fact that we worship Kṛṣṇa in a higher form, in Kṛṣṇaloka, and they worship Kṛṣṇa which leads to Vaikuṇṭha. Yes. (break) . . . quarter there is no cinema, no song. Bhaja gopālam. (music playing in background, recording of a woman singing " bhaja gopāla ") Śrīnivāsa said it is controlled by the temple here. Even the government doesn't control. This is all temple . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . prominence. (break) We came here yesterday. We went to the temple three times, and just for a long . . . Oh, very good. This is my wife and daughter. You came yesterday? Yes, I came yesterday at about eleven. We saw you in the evening going to the temple. Yes. It is very nice place. Very nice, beautiful place. Very inspiring. Where's somebody coming? (break) I am, of course, Indian, but I have got my headquarters in America. (chuckles) Yes. America. (chuckles) I think I have seen you at Bombay once. Yes, Bombay I have got my headquarters. And your friends were there at the airport, Santa Cruz Airport, and you came by plane, some two years back I remember. No, I am going every year. Two times, three times, I have to go all round the world. I respectfully request you your name, please. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That's all. Call me Prabhupāda. I am preaching this cult, what you have come to see, this being expanded all over the world. Yes, yes. It's very good. And we have got about hundred temples. At every America? No, no, all over the world. In America I have got forty temples. Forty temples. I see. Yes. In England we have got about five. And France, in German, we have got four. In Germany also. Oh, yes. Germany, Sweden, Rome and Australia. They are also . . . they are very devoted to our creed, our religion? *Yes, we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śa . . . ( BG 18.66). That is the only religion. Yes, yes. Everything is not religion. It is cheating. Only religion is to surrender to the Lord. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ (SB 1.2.6). *I am a Vaiṣṇavite, you see. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ pāpebhyo . . . (BG 18.66). That is religion. That is religion. Mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Oṁ namo nārāyaṇa (recites mantra ). These are our . . . is our mantra . *Yes, yes, you are Vaiṣṇava. The Vaiṣṇava, that is real form of religion. Others, they are not religion. It has been rejected in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra, kaitavaḥ religion is rejected. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. We have to surrender ourselves to God. That's all. *That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if you one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the law, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name? Raj Gopal Iyengar. Brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa . Vaiṣṇavite. Yes, Iyengars are all . . . We belong to South India. Mrs. Iyengar: Yesterday I saw you in the temple, I and my daughter. Yes. How many children you have got? I have got three sons and four daughters. All daughters, sons. Three sons. Three daughters are married. This daughter is to be married. She is a doctorate. She has got M.Sc., Ph.D., in nuclear physics. She went to England for one year. Where did you stay in England? Liverpool. Liverpool. I think we have got our branch. Manchester. I have seen, Manchester. Manchester you have seen? Oh. Manchester, Liverpool and London . . . London we have got two. London, in London I have got my son. My son is there. Oh. What he is doing? He is employed there. He's an accountant. He's an accountant, cost accountant. Oh. So your children are also . . . (laughs) I have got another boy in West Germany. West Germany, my last son. West Germany. Berlin? No, he is in Frankfurt. Frankfurt. Oh, yes. Frankfurt is a big city. Sons are all married? The last son is not married. Two sons are married. Three daughters are . . . this daughter is to be married. We are trying; not able to get a suitable groom, you see. With your blessings I hope we will succeed. (chuckles) Nowadays it is very difficult job to get married. (everyone laughs) Mrs. Iyengar: Suitable. Well, suitable cannot be. There is no suitable. Difficult to find. Yes. Formerly, as the girl is grown up, any boy. We used to marry at the age of ten, eleven. That is . . . those days have been forty years back. I was also married. My wife was eleven years old. My wife was eleven when she was married. I was only sixteen when I was married. Only a difference of four or five years. *Yes. And before that, I heard my father*-in-law, he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law was seven years old. My eldest sister was born at nine years old, and I was born after her marriage. I see. Those old days are finished. All right, thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa (end) Conversation -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati Secretary, he said: "You write in your books that the . . . that your movement by Lord Caitanya is the . . . as if it's the most exclusive thing." He said: "But actually, in India the Rāmānuja is a more prominent Vaiṣṇava sect." So, as I understand our claim, it's based on the fact that we worship Kṛṣṇa in a higher form, in Kṛṣṇaloka, and they worship Kṛṣṇa which leads to Vaikuṇṭha. Yes. (break) . . . quarter there is no cinema, no song. Bhaja gopālam. (music playing in background, recording of a woman singing " bhaja gopāla ") Śrīnivāsa said it is controlled by the temple here. Even the government doesn't control. This is all temple . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . prominence. (break) We came here yesterday. We went to the temple three times, and just for a long . . . Oh, very good. This is my wife and daughter. You came yesterday? Yes, I came yesterday at about eleven. We saw you in the evening going to the temple. Yes. It is very nice place. Very nice, beautiful place. Very inspiring. Where's somebody coming? (break) I am, of course, Indian, but I have got my headquarters in America. (chuckles) Yes. America. (chuckles) I think I have seen you at Bombay once. Yes, Bombay I have got my headquarters. And your friends were there at the airport, Santa Cruz Airport, and you came by plane, some two years back I remember. No, I am going every year. Two times, three times, I have to go all round the world. I respectfully request you your name, please. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That's all. Call me Prabhupāda. I am preaching this cult, what you have come to see, this being expanded all over the world. Yes, yes. It's very good. And we have got about hundred temples. At every America? No, no, all over the world. In America I have got forty temples. Forty temples. I see. Yes. In England we have got about five. And France, in German, we have got four. In Germany also. Oh, yes. Germany, Sweden, Rome and Australia. They are also . . . they are very devoted to our creed, our religion? *Yes, we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śa . . . ( BG 18.66). That is the only religion. Yes, yes. Everything is not religion. It is cheating. Only religion is to surrender to the Lord. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ (SB 1.2.6). *I am a Vaiṣṇavite, you see. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ pāpebhyo . . . (BG 18.66). That is religion. That is religion. Mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Oṁ namo nārāyaṇa (recites mantra ). These are our . . . is our mantra . *Yes, yes, you are Vaiṣṇava. The Vaiṣṇava, that is real form of religion. Others, they are not religion. It has been rejected in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra, kaitavaḥ religion is rejected. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. We have to surrender ourselves to God. That's all. *That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if you one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the law, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name? Raj Gopal Iyengar. Brāhmaṇa . Brāhmaṇa . Vaiṣṇavite. Yes, Iyengars are all . . . We belong to South India. Mrs. Iyengar: Yesterday I saw you in the temple, I and my daughter. Yes. How many children you have got? I have got three sons and four daughters. All daughters, sons. Three sons. Three daughters are married. This daughter is to be married. She is a doctorate. She has got M.Sc., Ph.D., in nuclear physics. She went to England for one year. Where did you stay in England? Liverpool. Liverpool. I think we have got our branch. Manchester. I have seen, Manchester. Manchester you have seen? Oh. Manchester, Liverpool and London . . . London we have got two. London, in London I have got my son. My son is there. Oh. What he is doing? He is employed there. He's an accountant. He's an accountant, cost accountant. Oh. So your children are also . . . (laughs) I have got another boy in West Germany. West Germany, my last son. West Germany. Berlin? No, he is in Frankfurt. Frankfurt. Oh, yes. Frankfurt is a big city. Sons are all married? The last son is not married. Two sons are married. Three daughters are . . . this daughter is to be married. We are trying; not able to get a suitable groom, you see. With your blessings I hope we will succeed. (chuckles) Nowadays it is very difficult job to get married. (everyone laughs) Mrs. Iyengar: Suitable. Well, suitable cannot be. There is no suitable. Difficult to find. Yes. Formerly, as the girl is grown up, any boy. We used to marry at the age of ten, eleven. That is . . . those days have been forty years back. I was also married. My wife was eleven years old. My wife was eleven when she was married. I was only sixteen when I was married. Only a difference of four or five years. *Yes. And before that, I heard my father*-in-law, he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law was seven years old. My eldest sister was born at nine years old, and I was born after her marriage. I see. Those old days are finished. All right, thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa (end) Conversation -- May 23, 1974, Rome (Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady) *(reading from Bhagavad*-gītā 13.22 purport) "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature." So this is our . . . because we are developing a different consciousness . . . different . . . consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that—not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā . Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā . Give up this staying here? Yes. How? *We have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because such consciousness will help us to be free from the contamination of these different types of material consciousness and save us from transmigrating from one body to another. So we accept this different association on account of our strong propensity for sense gratification. Therefore we have to purify the senses so that the senses may be engaged in the service of the master of the senses. Hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . Bhakti means to be free from all sorts of material designation. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Italian"—these are all designations of the body. So we have to become free from these designations. And that is called nirmalam , purification. And when we are nirmalam , without any contamination, then we can engage the senses in the service of the master of the senses. Master of the senses is Kṛṣṇa, or God. Actually, He is master of the senses. Just like I am feeling comfort by using this sense, touch sense, hand, in this way, but I am not master, because at any moment this hand can be paralyzed. So I am not the master. The master is Kṛṣṇa. So if it is engaged in the service of the master, then it is in its normal condition. And then we are liberated. *And this purification you can take very easily by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately associate with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, nondifferent. So as, if we associate with fire it becomes warm, the quality of the fire comes; *as it is materially possible, spiritually it is possible in perfect order. Process is the same. You associate with Kṛṣṇa, and you become Kṛṣṇaite, as pure as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is therefore advising, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So Kirpal Singh also studies Bhagavad-gītā ? I am asking this. Kirpal Singh, he teaches on the Bhagavad-gītā ? I didn't get that. *Your master, does he study Bhagavad*-gītā ? My master is a teacher of the science of the soul. What is that, science of the soul? Well, just like what you have been saying, purifying the senses and becoming in consciousness through a master, to know a way of purification by not . . . eating properly and thinking properly. The idea is purify the senses. And meditating, meditation. Being devoted, your life will be changed. The master teaches these things, purification. He has written also some books. When he came to America in 1967, I met him personally. And he initiated a group of people. And I was also kind of aiming at that, being a vegetarian a few years prior to that. He accepted me and gave me initiation with the group. And, of course, he went back in about . . . he stayed in the States about twelve days, then he came in Europe. Then he went back. I haven't seen him ever since. I have a picture of him. I carry a picture of him, the leader of . . . in our movement. Think of . . . meditating on the master. And I try to live up to it, to the teachings. Would you like to see that picture? Yes. Yes, I have seen this gentleman. In Delhi I have seen him. In New Delhi. And there are the five names of meditation on the back. What is that? I can't read it. *Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham, sat*-nāma. *Sat*-nāma . Those five names, according to your way and its positions, you will be attracted to one of the names. Everyone is a center of power, energy, the way he taught us. Whatever you fear . . . (indistinct) . . . what particular name one . . . someone that you're attracted to that name. Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra , so 'ham and sat-nāma . I thought that I met a good master. Mr. O'Grady. Desmond O'Grady and some of his friends have just arrived. They'd like to come and see you and speak with you. Yes. This is the Irish poet. (guests enter) Please sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you? Very well, thank you. We are very well and very tired. We've been traveling a long, long way, a long road from Delhi. (indistinct comments as guests enter and settle) Desmond is a poet. He's written books also, published in London. And tomorrow he goes to . . . where is it? To Sicily to a convention of poets and writers, international conference for writers and poets. He's representing Ireland. He's coming from Limerick in Southern Ireland. *This is my friend Michael Robert . . . (indistinct) . . . we are colleagues together since we teach literature, English literature. And this is another friend of ours who has just come from Greece. Everybody seems to be traveling within the last twenty*-four hours. This is a young painter friend of mine, Robert Jackson, also from Ireland, who's a painter, first time in Italy, out of Ireland, and he's staying with me at the moment. He came back with me from Ireland just a few weeks ago. We are also writing books, so many. You have seen our books? I have seen some, yes, because some of the friends have come up and . . . *(aside) Some of the books, you can show him. Here is one book, Bhagavad*-gītā . *You have seen the Bhagavad*-gītā , haven't you, in English? Oh, yes, but not this particular edition. This we just recently published in German, a German edition. A German edition . . . (indistinct) . . . who has published them? This was published in Germany. I don't remember the name of the publisher. This is Macmillan Company, and this is the life of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who began the chanting. All these books are illustrated by our artists in New York. They illustrated this? Oh, yes, they are beautiful. Some fantastic work. I've been looking at . . . when you came to the house . . . The text is in . . . There's original text in Bengali. This book is in Bengali. And Sanskrit. Sanskrit, which Prabhupāda translates himself and gives the explanation and purport. . . . (indistinct) (Sanskrit) Every night Śrīla Prabhupāda dictates into a Dictaphone, and his secretaries type and edit. And then we have a press in New York which composes and prints. It's a very nice edition, that Macmillan edition. Very nicely done. Yes, they have fifth edition within two years. Five editions. Five editions in two years. Yes. And each time they print fifty thousand books. This new printing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London about few months ago, we got report they sold thirty thousand copies in two months. Thirty thousand. Yes. In which country of Europe has the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement been the most powerful or successful? Everywhere. Every one? Everywhere, yes. In Africa, in America, in Canada, in Japan, in China. Most successful in America. Most successful. Many men have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What about Greece? I never went to Greece. You said you went to the airport and they were chanting. Yes. Really? I would think they would be in danger in Athens. It is danger. There's no way that this movement could be very successful in Athens or in Greece. Not too many things are successful in Greece. Yes, when I was going to Nairobi from London, I got down, transit, on the hall. Some young men, as soon as they saw me, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's very brave of them. No, really? In Greece, this was? In Athens? Athens, yes. Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of . . . do you think they're going . . . well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting permissions to go . . . That problem is everywhere. Everywhere. Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired. They become tired. Yes. The system. The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome . . . But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter) No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now. I think the fighting is going on still. Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here . . . *You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life that, "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu . . . (SB 10.84.13). There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog"; the cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped. What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England? Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference. The Englishman thinks there's a difference. No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When you think that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . You will find this verse. (aside) Find out this verse: Yes, 14.26. "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Purport. *"This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question, what is the means of attaining to the transcendental position? As explained before, the material world is acting under the spell of the modes of material nature. One should not be disturbed by the activities of the modes of nature. Instead of putting his consciousness into such activities, he may transfer his consciousness to Kṛṣṇa activities. Kṛṣṇa activities are known as bhakti*-yoga —always acting for Kṛṣṇa. This includes not only Kṛṣṇa, but His different plenary expansions such as Rāma and Nārāyaṇa. He has innumerable expansions. One who is engaged in the service of any of the forms of Kṛṣṇa or of His plenary expansions is considered to be transcendentally situated. One should also note that all the forms of Kṛṣṇa are fully transcendental, blissful, full of knowledge and eternal. Such personalities of Godhead are omnipotent and omniscient, and they possess all transcendental qualities. So if one engages himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa or His plenary expansions with unfailing determination, although these modes of material nature are very difficult to overcome, he can overcome them easily." "This is already explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa at once surmounts the influence of the modes of material nature. To be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or in devotional service, means to acquire the equality of Kṛṣṇa. The Lord says that His nature is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, and the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme, as gold particles are part of a gold mine. Thus the living entity's spiritual position is as good as gold, as good as Kṛṣṇa in quality. The difference of individuality continues; *otherwise there is no question of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means that the Lord is there, the devotee is there and the activity of exchange of love between the Lord and the devotee is there. Therefore the individuality of two persons is present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual person, otherwise there is no meaning to bhakti-yoga . If one is not situated in the same transcendental position with the Lord, one cannot serve the Supreme Lord. To be a personal assistant to a king, one must acquire the qualifications. Thus the qualification is to become Brahman, or freed from all material contamination. It is said in the Vedic literature, brahmaiva san brahmāpyeti . One can attain the Supreme Brahman by becoming Brahman. This means that one must qualitatively become one with Brahman. By attainment of Brahman, one does not lose his eternal Brahman identity as the individual soul." (aside) Find out this verse. The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously . . . Just like in our Society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Muhammadans. But they are no longer Muhammadan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. And that is Brahman realization. But that's giving it a name also. That's also giving it a name, isn't it? Label. *Yes, name must be there. But name . . . just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that, "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names . . . that is called so 'ham . One feels . . . the same example: in a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā ? "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." Purport. He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes. Purport? *"To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or the pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta , oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there in a higher, spiritual sense." "In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Kṛṣṇa, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; *higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with the ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him, stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma*-bhūta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like the broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuṇṭha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age." Could you read the opening little bit again? In the purport? Yeah. *"To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word." Okay. Now, is the Absolute internal or external? Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute. I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own absolute, ultimately the absolute that one finds for oneself. No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So, so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute. So therefore there is a life beyond time. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse. Chapter Four, text nine: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to . . . in the spiritual world, that is absolute. When he goes back to his original. Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute. So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time? No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nation. And after that, again there was war. (chuckles) (indistinct) . . . analogy. And then, now they have manufactured United Nation. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united. But when I go New York, I see flags are increasing; *no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so*-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform. I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, or an intuition, that . . . No, there is possibility—when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black . . ." Christian. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world. That's very . . . I'll accept that. Yes. But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything . . . Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are. I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom. No human being is immortal. Mortal, mortal, mortal. Mortal. That which dies, rots and is forgotten. *That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality, it is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform, because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate va kadācin (BG 2.20). (aside) Find out. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing? No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. (aside) Read this verse. *"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality . . . because actually he is immortal. Actuality is immortal. Yes, yes. Hmm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect. Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth . . . Never takes bath? Birth. Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in the gentle art of conversation. Actually . . . just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations. Accepted. So when one is free from the designation, then he becomes purified. So when we become purified, our senses are purified, and when the purified senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is perfect life. That is nonduality, absolute. That can be experienced in the present. Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups—Americans, Indians, Africans—but you don't think yourself as American or Indians or African. But the system insists that you do. Eh? But the system expects that you do. The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands . . . Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality. Materialistic society means duality. But that's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. Yes. Because of your physical existence . . . Unavoidable, yes . . . . . . and your personal spiritualism as well. But it can be avoided in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water. Did you understand? I didn't catch that last expression, no. Lily leaf. To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental. There's a lily leaf that sits on the water, and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet. Yes. Prabhupāda is explaining we can be in this world . . . Yes. But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one, necessarily. Because if you like . . . if put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements, here you should get a mountain of salt. If you can try to understand this example. Oh, I can understand. What is that, salt? Salt example was . . . explain. What was your point? I'm saying it's difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different, you know. No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty. Yes, I accept that, of course. Yes. So that is . . . (break) . . . there's a great difference between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking . . . That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious. God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means . . . Kṛṣṇa conscious. To become self conscious. Yes. To be conscious of who you are yourself. Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness. Well, it may be. No. You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect. When you are God conscious . . . Without being pantheistic, you mean? Just like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious. You also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear. Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most beautiful in them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state—because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition; they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one—what we are faced with is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here?" "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said, didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way, "Who am I?" "You are . . ." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also. So . . . And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally . . . and one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or . . . I mean, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education? That's the basic question. *Yes. Our Vedic process is . . . there are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master." One must . . .? Approach the bona fide spiritual master. Approach. The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do? No, there is. If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do? *No, we have got standard. The . . . who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like . . . the one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the . . . just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man. Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost. *Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master—if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). But then, you see, my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a saintly man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says: "Well, they tell me, the priests, they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God." No. And then he comes to me and asks me and says: "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer. Yes. That is the difference between God and me. *That's the difference between being seventy and thirty*-nine. *No. There is no question of . . . that is explained in the . . . that Bhāgavata, Brahma*-sūtra , who is God, first of all. Who is God? Who told God? *No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God . . . that is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , janmādy asya yataḥ : "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ . "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said that, "Who taught God?" Yes, that's the man I want to meet. *That is answered, sva*-rāṭ : "Independent." That is God. Independ . . .? Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God. Where does human love enter into it? Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are, being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God. Therefore we love. The love is also there in God. But God is not love? God is love. God is everything. Oh, yeah. Then love is God. Oh, yes. And manifestations of love are manifestations of God. Ah . . . because we are part and parcel . . . just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms. So because there is loving propensity in God, and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it? Maybe it's generated in you by the need . . . No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be. Must be. (laughs) Oh, very . . . yes, I accept the strong word. Yes. There is no question of . . . because we have defined God, janmādy asya yataḥ . God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity—absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same; *therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from śāstras : the so*-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection. Yes, the vengeful. Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against . . . is it possible to do it all alone? Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone? *No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet , this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar. This is called vidhiliṅ form of verb. So vidhiliṅ form of verb is used when there is a . . . matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam . And that is the Vedic version. Therefore . . . you have read Bhagavad-gītā . You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. (aside) Find out this verse. Text seven. "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness." Yes. That . . . here is the question, "confused." I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that's what it is. Then . . . ". . . and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am . . ." This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state? He is confused because he was a kṣatriya , soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya . Why you are trying to become nonviolent? This is not good." Therefore he says: "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician. Similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge. Right. So therefore, for example, I am very confused. What is that? He is confused. Very confused. Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master. And you make a decision, therefore, to try to sort this confusion, to make some . . . Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test. *This whole world is confusion, just like a blazing fire in the forest. When there is forest fire, all the animals become confused, "Where to go? How to save life?" It is very good example. When there is fire in the forest, all the animals become confused. Similarly, this material world is just like a blazing fire in the forest. Everyone is confused. Now, how the blazing fire in the forest can be extinguished? You cannot take there your man*-made fire brigade. That is not possible. Neither bucketful of water. So in this confused state of the human society you cannot manufacture the solution. The only solution is that when there is rain from the cloud on the forest fire, then it is extinguished. That is not in your hand; *that is mercy of God. So spiritual master means who has received the mercy of God, and he can deliver to the confused man. Then the solution is there. This is very good verse, saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya. One who has received mercy of God, he can become spiritual master. He can deliver the mercy of God. A friend, for example. Yes. A real friend. Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of . . . *True well*-wisher. *There's no question of being half*-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend. Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master, because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend. The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master. *No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master. Okay. Thank you. That I know. *Therefore God is called caittya*-guru , the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without—without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated: *All our questions are answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction, "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the . . . so if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we wanted something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He is very kind. Īśvaraḥ sarva . . . I want to have something, and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know. We must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . His Grace must be very tired. We can distribute some prasādam now? Yes. Give them. Stay, we have some prasādam , something to eat. We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session, and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday, at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and . . . (indistinct) . . . our students. They're invited to come. Where it is? It's here in Rome. It's a school in Rome. If you'd like to come. (indistinct comments about the school) An American school here in Rome. Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. Just to pay a visit, meet the children. Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness. God consciousness. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you all. Please stay for one minute. Please take prasāda . Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction. *There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ , when there is perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam : when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being. Well, in my experience, the process seems to be . . . it seems to be that while you begin . . . first of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this. And that choosing is given. This is this verse, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ : "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible. This one. Yes. Not his brother, not his sister, but this one. Everyone is important. But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it. No, no, just . . . when we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters. Yes, but you said . . . All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters. Yes, but what I was saying . . . The God means complete. You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen? I'm saying . . . yes, a spiritual master, the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God—that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music. No, whatever you do . . . music also, you can compose . . . That's it . . . yes. Yes. Okay, I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation. Not same thing. When you describe . . . music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection. Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understandable . . . (indistinct) Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that when you're working in the land . . . That's what you're supposed to be doing. Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work. I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of . . . (indistinct) You could say, with the same consciousness. Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same . . . Devotion. . . . devotion. Absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way; enjoying yourself the same way; and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. (pause) We should go now. We should give this man some peace . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very kind to see you, the students on Tuesday. You're not offended I hope, by other teachers, other attitudes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your coming. We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. Goodbye. Alright. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- May 23, 1974, Rome (Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady) *(reading from Bhagavad*-gītā 13.22 purport) "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature." So this is our . . . because we are developing a different consciousness . . . different . . . consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that—not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā . Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā . Give up this staying here? Yes. How? *We have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because such consciousness will help us to be free from the contamination of these different types of material consciousness and save us from transmigrating from one body to another. So we accept this different association on account of our strong propensity for sense gratification. Therefore we have to purify the senses so that the senses may be engaged in the service of the master of the senses. Hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . Bhakti means to be free from all sorts of material designation. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Italian"—these are all designations of the body. So we have to become free from these designations. And that is called nirmalam , purification. And when we are nirmalam , without any contamination, then we can engage the senses in the service of the master of the senses. Master of the senses is Kṛṣṇa, or God. Actually, He is master of the senses. Just like I am feeling comfort by using this sense, touch sense, hand, in this way, but I am not master, because at any moment this hand can be paralyzed. So I am not the master. The master is Kṛṣṇa. So if it is engaged in the service of the master, then it is in its normal condition. And then we are liberated. *And this purification you can take very easily by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately associate with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, nondifferent. So as, if we associate with fire it becomes warm, the quality of the fire comes; *as it is materially possible, spiritually it is possible in perfect order. Process is the same. You associate with Kṛṣṇa, and you become Kṛṣṇaite, as pure as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is therefore advising, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So Kirpal Singh also studies Bhagavad-gītā ? I am asking this. Kirpal Singh, he teaches on the Bhagavad-gītā ? I didn't get that. *Your master, does he study Bhagavad*-gītā ? My master is a teacher of the science of the soul. What is that, science of the soul? Well, just like what you have been saying, purifying the senses and becoming in consciousness through a master, to know a way of purification by not . . . eating properly and thinking properly. The idea is purify the senses. And meditating, meditation. Being devoted, your life will be changed. The master teaches these things, purification. He has written also some books. When he came to America in 1967, I met him personally. And he initiated a group of people. And I was also kind of aiming at that, being a vegetarian a few years prior to that. He accepted me and gave me initiation with the group. And, of course, he went back in about . . . he stayed in the States about twelve days, then he came in Europe. Then he went back. I haven't seen him ever since. I have a picture of him. I carry a picture of him, the leader of . . . in our movement. Think of . . . meditating on the master. And I try to live up to it, to the teachings. Would you like to see that picture? Yes. Yes, I have seen this gentleman. In Delhi I have seen him. In New Delhi. And there are the five names of meditation on the back. What is that? I can't read it. *Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham, sat*-nāma. *Sat*-nāma . Those five names, according to your way and its positions, you will be attracted to one of the names. Everyone is a center of power, energy, the way he taught us. Whatever you fear . . . (indistinct) . . . what particular name one . . . someone that you're attracted to that name. Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra , so 'ham and sat-nāma . I thought that I met a good master. Mr. O'Grady. Desmond O'Grady and some of his friends have just arrived. They'd like to come and see you and speak with you. Yes. This is the Irish poet. (guests enter) Please sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you? Very well, thank you. We are very well and very tired. We've been traveling a long, long way, a long road from Delhi. (indistinct comments as guests enter and settle) Desmond is a poet. He's written books also, published in London. And tomorrow he goes to . . . where is it? To Sicily to a convention of poets and writers, international conference for writers and poets. He's representing Ireland. He's coming from Limerick in Southern Ireland. *This is my friend Michael Robert . . . (indistinct) . . . we are colleagues together since we teach literature, English literature. And this is another friend of ours who has just come from Greece. Everybody seems to be traveling within the last twenty*-four hours. This is a young painter friend of mine, Robert Jackson, also from Ireland, who's a painter, first time in Italy, out of Ireland, and he's staying with me at the moment. He came back with me from Ireland just a few weeks ago. We are also writing books, so many. You have seen our books? I have seen some, yes, because some of the friends have come up and . . . *(aside) Some of the books, you can show him. Here is one book, Bhagavad*-gītā . *You have seen the Bhagavad*-gītā , haven't you, in English? Oh, yes, but not this particular edition. This we just recently published in German, a German edition. A German edition . . . (indistinct) . . . who has published them? This was published in Germany. I don't remember the name of the publisher. This is Macmillan Company, and this is the life of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who began the chanting. All these books are illustrated by our artists in New York. They illustrated this? Oh, yes, they are beautiful. Some fantastic work. I've been looking at . . . when you came to the house . . . The text is in . . . There's original text in Bengali. This book is in Bengali. And Sanskrit. Sanskrit, which Prabhupāda translates himself and gives the explanation and purport. . . . (indistinct) (Sanskrit) Every night Śrīla Prabhupāda dictates into a Dictaphone, and his secretaries type and edit. And then we have a press in New York which composes and prints. It's a very nice edition, that Macmillan edition. Very nicely done. Yes, they have fifth edition within two years. Five editions. Five editions in two years. Yes. And each time they print fifty thousand books. This new printing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London about few months ago, we got report they sold thirty thousand copies in two months. Thirty thousand. Yes. In which country of Europe has the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement been the most powerful or successful? Everywhere. Every one? Everywhere, yes. In Africa, in America, in Canada, in Japan, in China. Most successful in America. Most successful. Many men have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What about Greece? I never went to Greece. You said you went to the airport and they were chanting. Yes. Really? I would think they would be in danger in Athens. It is danger. There's no way that this movement could be very successful in Athens or in Greece. Not too many things are successful in Greece. Yes, when I was going to Nairobi from London, I got down, transit, on the hall. Some young men, as soon as they saw me, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's very brave of them. No, really? In Greece, this was? In Athens? Athens, yes. Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of . . . do you think they're going . . . well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting permissions to go . . . That problem is everywhere. Everywhere. Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired. They become tired. Yes. The system. The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome . . . But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter) No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now. I think the fighting is going on still. Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here . . . *You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life that, "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu . . . (SB 10.84.13). There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog"; the cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped. What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England? Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference. The Englishman thinks there's a difference. No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When you think that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . You will find this verse. (aside) Find out this verse: Yes, 14.26. "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Purport. *"This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question, what is the means of attaining to the transcendental position? As explained before, the material world is acting under the spell of the modes of material nature. One should not be disturbed by the activities of the modes of nature. Instead of putting his consciousness into such activities, he may transfer his consciousness to Kṛṣṇa activities. Kṛṣṇa activities are known as bhakti*-yoga —always acting for Kṛṣṇa. This includes not only Kṛṣṇa, but His different plenary expansions such as Rāma and Nārāyaṇa. He has innumerable expansions. One who is engaged in the service of any of the forms of Kṛṣṇa or of His plenary expansions is considered to be transcendentally situated. One should also note that all the forms of Kṛṣṇa are fully transcendental, blissful, full of knowledge and eternal. Such personalities of Godhead are omnipotent and omniscient, and they possess all transcendental qualities. So if one engages himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa or His plenary expansions with unfailing determination, although these modes of material nature are very difficult to overcome, he can overcome them easily." "This is already explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa at once surmounts the influence of the modes of material nature. To be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or in devotional service, means to acquire the equality of Kṛṣṇa. The Lord says that His nature is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, and the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme, as gold particles are part of a gold mine. Thus the living entity's spiritual position is as good as gold, as good as Kṛṣṇa in quality. The difference of individuality continues; *otherwise there is no question of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means that the Lord is there, the devotee is there and the activity of exchange of love between the Lord and the devotee is there. Therefore the individuality of two persons is present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual person, otherwise there is no meaning to bhakti-yoga . If one is not situated in the same transcendental position with the Lord, one cannot serve the Supreme Lord. To be a personal assistant to a king, one must acquire the qualifications. Thus the qualification is to become Brahman, or freed from all material contamination. It is said in the Vedic literature, brahmaiva san brahmāpyeti . One can attain the Supreme Brahman by becoming Brahman. This means that one must qualitatively become one with Brahman. By attainment of Brahman, one does not lose his eternal Brahman identity as the individual soul." (aside) Find out this verse. The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously . . . Just like in our Society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Muhammadans. But they are no longer Muhammadan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. And that is Brahman realization. But that's giving it a name also. That's also giving it a name, isn't it? Label. *Yes, name must be there. But name . . . just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that, "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names . . . that is called so 'ham . One feels . . . the same example: in a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā ? "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." Purport. He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes. Purport? *"To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or the pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta , oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there in a higher, spiritual sense." "In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Kṛṣṇa, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; *higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with the ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him, stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma*-bhūta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like the broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuṇṭha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age." Could you read the opening little bit again? In the purport? Yeah. *"To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word." Okay. Now, is the Absolute internal or external? Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute. I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own absolute, ultimately the absolute that one finds for oneself. No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So, so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute. So therefore there is a life beyond time. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse. Chapter Four, text nine: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to . . . in the spiritual world, that is absolute. When he goes back to his original. Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute. So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time? No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nation. And after that, again there was war. (chuckles) (indistinct) . . . analogy. And then, now they have manufactured United Nation. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united. But when I go New York, I see flags are increasing; *no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so*-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform. I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, or an intuition, that . . . No, there is possibility—when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black . . ." Christian. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world. That's very . . . I'll accept that. Yes. But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything . . . Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are. I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom. No human being is immortal. Mortal, mortal, mortal. Mortal. That which dies, rots and is forgotten. *That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality, it is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform, because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate va kadācin (BG 2.20). (aside) Find out. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing? No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. (aside) Read this verse. *"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality . . . because actually he is immortal. Actuality is immortal. Yes, yes. Hmm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect. Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth . . . Never takes bath? Birth. Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in the gentle art of conversation. Actually . . . just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations. Accepted. So when one is free from the designation, then he becomes purified. So when we become purified, our senses are purified, and when the purified senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is perfect life. That is nonduality, absolute. That can be experienced in the present. Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups—Americans, Indians, Africans—but you don't think yourself as American or Indians or African. But the system insists that you do. Eh? But the system expects that you do. The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands . . . Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality. Materialistic society means duality. But that's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. Yes. Because of your physical existence . . . Unavoidable, yes . . . . . . and your personal spiritualism as well. But it can be avoided in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water. Did you understand? I didn't catch that last expression, no. Lily leaf. To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental. There's a lily leaf that sits on the water, and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet. Yes. Prabhupāda is explaining we can be in this world . . . Yes. But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one, necessarily. Because if you like . . . if put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements, here you should get a mountain of salt. If you can try to understand this example. Oh, I can understand. What is that, salt? Salt example was . . . explain. What was your point? I'm saying it's difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different, you know. No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty. Yes, I accept that, of course. Yes. So that is . . . (break) . . . there's a great difference between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking . . . That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious. God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means . . . Kṛṣṇa conscious. To become self conscious. Yes. To be conscious of who you are yourself. Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness. Well, it may be. No. You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect. When you are God conscious . . . Without being pantheistic, you mean? Just like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious. You also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear. Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most beautiful in them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state—because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition; they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one—what we are faced with is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here?" "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said, didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way, "Who am I?" "You are . . ." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also. So . . . And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally . . . and one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or . . . I mean, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education? That's the basic question. *Yes. Our Vedic process is . . . there are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master." One must . . .? Approach the bona fide spiritual master. Approach. The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do? No, there is. If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do? *No, we have got standard. The . . . who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like . . . the one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the . . . just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man. Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost. *Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master—if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). But then, you see, my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a saintly man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says: "Well, they tell me, the priests, they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God." No. And then he comes to me and asks me and says: "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer. Yes. That is the difference between God and me. *That's the difference between being seventy and thirty*-nine. *No. There is no question of . . . that is explained in the . . . that Bhāgavata, Brahma*-sūtra , who is God, first of all. Who is God? Who told God? *No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God . . . that is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , janmādy asya yataḥ : "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ . "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said that, "Who taught God?" Yes, that's the man I want to meet. *That is answered, sva*-rāṭ : "Independent." That is God. Independ . . .? Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God. Where does human love enter into it? Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are, being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God. Therefore we love. The love is also there in God. But God is not love? God is love. God is everything. Oh, yeah. Then love is God. Oh, yes. And manifestations of love are manifestations of God. Ah . . . because we are part and parcel . . . just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms. So because there is loving propensity in God, and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it? Maybe it's generated in you by the need . . . No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be. Must be. (laughs) Oh, very . . . yes, I accept the strong word. Yes. There is no question of . . . because we have defined God, janmādy asya yataḥ . God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity—absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same; *therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from śāstras : the so*-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection. Yes, the vengeful. Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against . . . is it possible to do it all alone? Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone? *No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet , this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar. This is called vidhiliṅ form of verb. So vidhiliṅ form of verb is used when there is a . . . matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam . And that is the Vedic version. Therefore . . . you have read Bhagavad-gītā . You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. (aside) Find out this verse. Text seven. "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness." Yes. That . . . here is the question, "confused." I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that's what it is. Then . . . ". . . and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am . . ." This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state? He is confused because he was a kṣatriya , soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya . Why you are trying to become nonviolent? This is not good." Therefore he says: "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician. Similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge. Right. So therefore, for example, I am very confused. What is that? He is confused. Very confused. Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master. And you make a decision, therefore, to try to sort this confusion, to make some . . . Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test. *This whole world is confusion, just like a blazing fire in the forest. When there is forest fire, all the animals become confused, "Where to go? How to save life?" It is very good example. When there is fire in the forest, all the animals become confused. Similarly, this material world is just like a blazing fire in the forest. Everyone is confused. Now, how the blazing fire in the forest can be extinguished? You cannot take there your man*-made fire brigade. That is not possible. Neither bucketful of water. So in this confused state of the human society you cannot manufacture the solution. The only solution is that when there is rain from the cloud on the forest fire, then it is extinguished. That is not in your hand; *that is mercy of God. So spiritual master means who has received the mercy of God, and he can deliver to the confused man. Then the solution is there. This is very good verse, saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya. One who has received mercy of God, he can become spiritual master. He can deliver the mercy of God. A friend, for example. Yes. A real friend. Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of . . . *True well*-wisher. *There's no question of being half*-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend. Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master, because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend. The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master. *No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master. Okay. Thank you. That I know. *Therefore God is called caittya*-guru , the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without—without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated: *All our questions are answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction, "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the . . . so if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we wanted something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He is very kind. Īśvaraḥ sarva . . . I want to have something, and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know. We must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . His Grace must be very tired. We can distribute some prasādam now? Yes. Give them. Stay, we have some prasādam , something to eat. We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session, and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday, at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and . . . (indistinct) . . . our students. They're invited to come. Where it is? It's here in Rome. It's a school in Rome. If you'd like to come. (indistinct comments about the school) An American school here in Rome. Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. Just to pay a visit, meet the children. Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness. God consciousness. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you all. Please stay for one minute. Please take prasāda . Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction. *There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ , when there is perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam : when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being. Well, in my experience, the process seems to be . . . it seems to be that while you begin . . . first of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this. And that choosing is given. This is this verse, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ : "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible. This one. Yes. Not his brother, not his sister, but this one. Everyone is important. But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it. No, no, just . . . when we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters. Yes, but you said . . . All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters. Yes, but what I was saying . . . The God means complete. You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen? I'm saying . . . yes, a spiritual master, the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God—that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music. No, whatever you do . . . music also, you can compose . . . That's it . . . yes. Yes. Okay, I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation. Not same thing. When you describe . . . music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection. Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understandable . . . (indistinct) Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that when you're working in the land . . . That's what you're supposed to be doing. Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work. I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of . . . (indistinct) You could say, with the same consciousness. Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same . . . Devotion. . . . devotion. Absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way; enjoying yourself the same way; and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. (pause) We should go now. We should give this man some peace . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very kind to see you, the students on Tuesday. You're not offended I hope, by other teachers, other attitudes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your coming. We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. Goodbye. Alright. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- May 24, 1974, Rome (Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope - His Eminence Cardinal Pignedoli and Monsignor Verrozano) Hmm? That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied . . . Hmm! . . . can it be found anywhere else aside from Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I don't think. In other words . . . Because they are all ahaitukī ; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihatā ( SB 1.2.6). That is the version. (break) ( kīrtana ) (break) . . . our spiritual master, and he is the founder of our International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Thank you. This is Prabhupāda's first visit to Rome, to Italy. Oh, yes. You will stay some days here? Yes. You have visited India? Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India. You have been to Vṛndāvana? No, I have been to Vārāṇasī, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in . . . Nepal also. My birthplace is in Calcutta. Yes, very nice. New Delhi, same. And Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh? South India. In Kerala? Kerala, Tiruchirappalli . . . I haven't been there. . . . Cochin, Madras. Bombay, of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay. Oh, yes. Yes, I visited. Bombay, there was function. Yes. At that time, you were there? In January. At Cross Maidan. Cross Maidan. Yes. *That was our festival, the Bhāgavata*-dharma discourses. We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people. Yes, yes. And just last year about the twentieth of January, it was this week of festivals also, this . . . (indistinct) . . . of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also. In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in . . . (indistinct) Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world. *Yes. Our movement is that . . . that is first*-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, Adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata*-dharma . *So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta*-sūtra , Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā , "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms . . ." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals—eating, sleeping, sex life and defending—then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana , the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ . . . deham means this body. After this death . . . there are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. *So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . The publisher is Messrs. Macmillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty thousand copies, and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam , and explained. Then . . . this is graduate study. Then after this there is postgraduate study, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhāgavatam , is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion . Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion . So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the Western countries. Recently we have received report, some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introduced in their class, Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold . . . eh? Four million pieces. Four millions pieces of books in the Western countries. So you are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that, "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" *So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this verse. (aside) Find out. *Yeṣām, y*-e-s-a-m . A person who is completely free from all sinful contamination, such person can become a pure devotee of God. Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. (aside) Read it. "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." Purport. "Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the association of pure devotees, who can deliver one from delusion." *"It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality nor to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination." *So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, we chant always God's name on these beads. And we worship . . . (pause) (someone enters) (guest showing pictures) This is also a church? This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Tibet. Yes. Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama. Buddhism. Buddhist, but this is from India. This is Hindu temple. Yes. The Mahakrish. Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends to God, we are all friends, and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know . . . you are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you go into these places or amongst these people . . . there are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to . . . but we thank you for your visit and for your . . . for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia, probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you . . . have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places? Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited. Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God . . . well, I wouldn't say to the Muslim world, because they are good believers, and God is probably . . . they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometime, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and so on, these are cities where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity, and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, eh, if I understand it well. There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana , a prayer, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . so this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God. And Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in Your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā . I think . . . māyā . So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render, because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then we render service to māyā . Therefore it is the prayer to God that, "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they sometimes say that, "We are now in māyā . As soon as we are out of māyā , then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here, and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life, or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā , that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotovsky, the indologist. Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on? Yes. You were. No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So, so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government suppresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; *simply it is being suppressed, either by the so*-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā . We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte . One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began, that process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means first class. But simply a sentiment will not help. Therefore a religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimentality." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be . . . or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals? *No, love for man . . . let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception, because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma , they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. (aside) Can you find out this? *There are different species of life, sarva*-yoni. Yoni means species of life. And there are forms, different forms. But within that form . . . (aside) Yes, read it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words: sevā , the Sanskrit word sevā , and dayā . You know something of Sanskrit, no? Some words, yes. *Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea . . . just like in India they say daridra*-nārāyaṇa, some mission, that to give service to the human being and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good. *Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā , verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man. Yes. What do you think about this . . . *No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. (break) . . . cannot make any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva*-yoniṣu . . . just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is not . . . if actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible. Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a . . . Lover of God. To become lovers of God, friends to God. Yes. All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, of events—not of ideas; of events, of reality—do you think there are many—these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today? Mostly. Mostly. You think so. Yes. And then you think that men of God are a minority? Yes. This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before, I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean . . . God has also some hobby. Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling . . . I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose always—I try to do this—people who are unbeliever, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God . . . we are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know . . . priests, Catholic priests, will, go to an area, because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or go to Copenhagen, where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your Society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not . . . For all. For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do they . . . do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present. No, we go everywhere. Everywhere. Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their . . . Local people. Local citizens. Yes. So our process is so nice—that is recommended process in this age—the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," we dance. Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman . . . It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere. *We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that, "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone. Well, thank you for your explanations. And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese—everyone. And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known? I am just coming from Bangkok, where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the . . . (indistinct) . . . order. And have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to . . . (indistinct) Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God. Yes. So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy. Yes. Also practically . . . theoretically yes, but practically, do you think that they are atheistic, practically? Because . . . theoretically you see. No, no. Our . . . yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa. Also some of them, they believe in . . . they think Buddha is a god, and they are believers. Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find . . . Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are exclusive, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not what . . . but because we are few . . . I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa, where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan? Yes, we go. This is more important, because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although . . . I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why you don't choose these . . .? This is my question. These areas where Japan, for instance, is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly, but the . . . it's called . . . . . . (indistinct) No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday, Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask. Then you go to Japan? Yes, we have a center in Tokyo. Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong. Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh? *Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went . . . I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical . . . or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead. That is first*-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first . . . and besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. In the . . . (aside) Find out this verse: "Out of many millions of persons," manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu , "somebody is trying to make his life perfect." Others, they are simply trying to enjoy life like animals. So manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , and yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3): "And out of many millions of such persons who are trying to make his life perfect, hardly one can understand what is God." This is the statement. (aside) Read it. "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." Read the purport. *"There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman." "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. *It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti , or devotional service, is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually, the path of bhakti is not easy. The so*-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually, according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu : 'Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the *Upaniṣads* , *Purāṇas* , Nārada Pañcarātra , etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.' "It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist nor the Paramātmā realized yogī to understand *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ, māṁ tu veda na kaścana, 'No one knows Me as I am,' the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), 'Such a great soul is very rare . . .' If one does know Him, such a great soul is very rare. Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is ( tattvataḥ ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said: 'No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service to Him.' " That's from the *Padma Purāṇa* . So the position is that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular . . . because in truth, hardly very few people understands what is God. Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real, again, and . . . *Do they have a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā ? I don't think you have this. What is this? If you like, you can take this. I have, I have this. You can have this. Yes, I have. Thank you. *There are many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā , but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee . . . Professor Dimock has said very nicely. Yes, we have also many translations. Yes. You have not brought by the fruit? Yes, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja did. We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zaehner from Oxford. Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock. This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment. You read, read it. Yes. Professor Dimock's. It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel. Read it. (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate." Yes. That is legitimate. "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic . . ." Yes. A Kṛṣṇa devotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, and a nondevotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, there is far difference. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Realize, Realize. So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret. Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated. When the scripture is translated by . . . That is because it is legitimate. Yes, it's very important. Read it again. You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter. *"In this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. This book is then a welcome addition from many points of view. It can serve as a valuable textbook for the college student. It allows us to listen to a skilled interpreter explicating a text which has profound religious meaning. It gives us insights into the original and highly convincing ideas of the Gauḍiya Vaiṣṇava school. In providing the Sanskrit in both Devanagari and transliteration, it offers the Sanskrit specialist the opportunity to re*-interpret, or debate particular Sanskrit meanings—although I think there will be little disagreement about the quality of the Swami's Sanskrit scholarship. And finally, for the nonspecialist, there is readable English and a devotional attitude which cannot help but move the sensitive reader. And there are the paintings, which, incredibly as it may seem to those familiar with contemporary Indian religious art, were done by American devotees." "The scholar, the student of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism, and the increasing number of Western readers interested in classical Vedic thought have been done a service by Swami Bhaktivedanta. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, he has increased our understanding manyfold, and arguments for understanding, in these days of estrangement, need not be made." This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this. Thank you. It will be a source also for . . . (indistinct) . . . also to give true interpretation, yes, by devotee. The trades manager of Messrs. Macmillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing. A great sign of interest. Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and . . . Yes. . . . stressing . . . each other. Kindly pray to God. *Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . now you know it. You have been here, with Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Muslims. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French*-speaking Africa. Some of our devotees are going to Lagos. Ah, Lagos. Ah, yeah. You are going, also you? No, not me. My Godbrothers . . . I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Muslims, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end) Conversation A -- May 24, 1974, Rome (Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope - His Eminence Cardinal Pignedoli and Monsignor Verrozano) Hmm? That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied . . . Hmm! . . . can it be found anywhere else aside from Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I don't think. In other words . . . Because they are all ahaitukī ; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihatā ( SB 1.2.6). That is the version. (break) ( kīrtana ) (break) . . . our spiritual master, and he is the founder of our International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Thank you. This is Prabhupāda's first visit to Rome, to Italy. Oh, yes. You will stay some days here? Yes. You have visited India? Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India. You have been to Vṛndāvana? No, I have been to Vārāṇasī, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in . . . Nepal also. My birthplace is in Calcutta. Yes, very nice. New Delhi, same. And Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh? South India. In Kerala? Kerala, Tiruchirappalli . . . I haven't been there. . . . Cochin, Madras. Bombay, of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay. Oh, yes. Yes, I visited. Bombay, there was function. Yes. At that time, you were there? In January. At Cross Maidan. Cross Maidan. Yes. *That was our festival, the Bhāgavata*-dharma discourses. We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people. Yes, yes. And just last year about the twentieth of January, it was this week of festivals also, this . . . (indistinct) . . . of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also. In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in . . . (indistinct) Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world. *Yes. Our movement is that . . . that is first*-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, Adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata*-dharma . *So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta*-sūtra , Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā , "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms . . ." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals—eating, sleeping, sex life and defending—then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana , the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ . . . deham means this body. After this death . . . there are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. *So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . The publisher is Messrs. Macmillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty thousand copies, and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam , and explained. Then . . . this is graduate study. Then after this there is postgraduate study, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhāgavatam , is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion . Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion . So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the Western countries. Recently we have received report, some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introduced in their class, Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold . . . eh? Four million pieces. Four millions pieces of books in the Western countries. So you are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that, "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" *So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this verse. (aside) Find out. *Yeṣām, y*-e-s-a-m . A person who is completely free from all sinful contamination, such person can become a pure devotee of God. Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. (aside) Read it. "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." Purport. "Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the association of pure devotees, who can deliver one from delusion." *"It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality nor to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination." *So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, we chant always God's name on these beads. And we worship . . . (pause) (someone enters) (guest showing pictures) This is also a church? This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Tibet. Yes. Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama. Buddhism. Buddhist, but this is from India. This is Hindu temple. Yes. The Mahakrish. Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends to God, we are all friends, and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know . . . you are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you go into these places or amongst these people . . . there are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to . . . but we thank you for your visit and for your . . . for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia, probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you . . . have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places? Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited. Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God . . . well, I wouldn't say to the Muslim world, because they are good believers, and God is probably . . . they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometime, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and so on, these are cities where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity, and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, eh, if I understand it well. There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana , a prayer, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . so this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God. And Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in Your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā . I think . . . māyā . So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render, because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then we render service to māyā . Therefore it is the prayer to God that, "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they sometimes say that, "We are now in māyā . As soon as we are out of māyā , then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here, and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life, or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā , that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotovsky, the indologist. Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on? Yes. You were. No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So, so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government suppresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; *simply it is being suppressed, either by the so*-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā . We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte . One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began, that process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means first class. But simply a sentiment will not help. Therefore a religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimentality." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be . . . or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals? *No, love for man . . . let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception, because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma , they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. (aside) Can you find out this? *There are different species of life, sarva*-yoni. Yoni means species of life. And there are forms, different forms. But within that form . . . (aside) Yes, read it. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words: sevā , the Sanskrit word sevā , and dayā . You know something of Sanskrit, no? Some words, yes. *Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea . . . just like in India they say daridra*-nārāyaṇa, some mission, that to give service to the human being and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good. *Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā , verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man. Yes. What do you think about this . . . *No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. (break) . . . cannot make any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva*-yoniṣu . . . just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is not . . . if actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible. Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a . . . Lover of God. To become lovers of God, friends to God. Yes. All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, of events—not of ideas; of events, of reality—do you think there are many—these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today? Mostly. Mostly. You think so. Yes. And then you think that men of God are a minority? Yes. This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before, I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean . . . God has also some hobby. Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling . . . I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose always—I try to do this—people who are unbeliever, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God . . . we are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know . . . priests, Catholic priests, will, go to an area, because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or go to Copenhagen, where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your Society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not . . . For all. For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do they . . . do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present. No, we go everywhere. Everywhere. Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their . . . Local people. Local citizens. Yes. So our process is so nice—that is recommended process in this age—the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," we dance. Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman . . . It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere. *We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that, "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone. Well, thank you for your explanations. And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese—everyone. And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known? I am just coming from Bangkok, where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the . . . (indistinct) . . . order. And have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to . . . (indistinct) Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God. Yes. So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy. Yes. Also practically . . . theoretically yes, but practically, do you think that they are atheistic, practically? Because . . . theoretically you see. No, no. Our . . . yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa. Also some of them, they believe in . . . they think Buddha is a god, and they are believers. Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find . . . Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are exclusive, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not what . . . but because we are few . . . I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa, where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan? Yes, we go. This is more important, because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although . . . I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why you don't choose these . . .? This is my question. These areas where Japan, for instance, is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly, but the . . . it's called . . . . . . (indistinct) No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday, Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask. Then you go to Japan? Yes, we have a center in Tokyo. Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong. Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh? *Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went . . . I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical . . . or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead. That is first*-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first . . . and besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. In the . . . (aside) Find out this verse: "Out of many millions of persons," manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu , "somebody is trying to make his life perfect." Others, they are simply trying to enjoy life like animals. So manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , and yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3): "And out of many millions of such persons who are trying to make his life perfect, hardly one can understand what is God." This is the statement. (aside) Read it. "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." Read the purport. *"There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman." "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. *It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti , or devotional service, is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually, the path of bhakti is not easy. The so*-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually, according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu : 'Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the *Upaniṣads* , *Purāṇas* , Nārada Pañcarātra , etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.' "It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist nor the Paramātmā realized yogī to understand *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ, māṁ tu veda na kaścana, 'No one knows Me as I am,' the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), 'Such a great soul is very rare . . .' If one does know Him, such a great soul is very rare. Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is ( tattvataḥ ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said: 'No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service to Him.' " That's from the *Padma Purāṇa* . So the position is that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular . . . because in truth, hardly very few people understands what is God. Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real, again, and . . . *Do they have a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā ? I don't think you have this. What is this? If you like, you can take this. I have, I have this. You can have this. Yes, I have. Thank you. *There are many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā , but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee . . . Professor Dimock has said very nicely. Yes, we have also many translations. Yes. You have not brought by the fruit? Yes, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja did. We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zaehner from Oxford. Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock. This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment. You read, read it. Yes. Professor Dimock's. It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel. Read it. (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate." Yes. That is legitimate. "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic . . ." Yes. A Kṛṣṇa devotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, and a nondevotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, there is far difference. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Realize, Realize. So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret. Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated. When the scripture is translated by . . . That is because it is legitimate. Yes, it's very important. Read it again. You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter. *"In this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. This book is then a welcome addition from many points of view. It can serve as a valuable textbook for the college student. It allows us to listen to a skilled interpreter explicating a text which has profound religious meaning. It gives us insights into the original and highly convincing ideas of the Gauḍiya Vaiṣṇava school. In providing the Sanskrit in both Devanagari and transliteration, it offers the Sanskrit specialist the opportunity to re*-interpret, or debate particular Sanskrit meanings—although I think there will be little disagreement about the quality of the Swami's Sanskrit scholarship. And finally, for the nonspecialist, there is readable English and a devotional attitude which cannot help but move the sensitive reader. And there are the paintings, which, incredibly as it may seem to those familiar with contemporary Indian religious art, were done by American devotees." "The scholar, the student of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism, and the increasing number of Western readers interested in classical Vedic thought have been done a service by Swami Bhaktivedanta. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, he has increased our understanding manyfold, and arguments for understanding, in these days of estrangement, need not be made." This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this. Thank you. It will be a source also for . . . (indistinct) . . . also to give true interpretation, yes, by devotee. The trades manager of Messrs. Macmillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing. A great sign of interest. Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and . . . Yes. . . . stressing . . . each other. Kindly pray to God. *Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . now you know it. You have been here, with Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Muslims. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French*-speaking Africa. Some of our devotees are going to Lagos. Ah, Lagos. Ah, yeah. You are going, also you? No, not me. My Godbrothers . . . I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Muslims, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end) Arrival -- May 30, 1974, Geneva *(Welcomed by Governor at Hotel de Ville - translated by Guru*-gaurāṅga from French) In the name of the Canton of Geneva and the city, we wish to extend our heartfelt welcome to you. This republic is an independent state, part of Switzerland, and it has a reputation for being a great center of dialogue between all men of science, philosophy and religion. Geneva is the seat of the World Council of Churches, and there is a Protestant pastor who is there as representative of the Canton of Geneva. Unique among the cities of the world, Geneva has had the privilege to greet many great religious heads such as Pope Paul VI, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and many others. As civil authorities, we are very much encouraged by religious or spiritual groups because they contribute to wake up the consciousness of the people, provided, of course, that they respect all the laws. For thousands of years, man has tried to find perfection through religious means, and for us what is so much important is that this be done with tolerance, that whatever the books, whether they be the books of India or the Torah or the Koran, that they contribute to a general welfare of all men and not that they fight each other. There is the need currently for men to understand each other better and hear each other better. The modern world neither has the time nor the interest to tolerate divisions between men, especially on the spiritual platform. As a result, everyone must try to improve the fate of the individual man through these means. Should we not, then, try to find some common language with which to solve these problems, all the while respecting the dignity of the common man? And we hope finally that this trip in Europe will give Your Divine Grace new perspectives in the search for the truth. I can speak in English? (he asks in French) The president says that you may speak directly in English, no translation needed. *So, Monsieur President and Ladies and Gentlemen, the kind words that you have spoken to receive me, I thank you very much for the same. Our preaching principle is bhāgavata*-dharma , and we do not say: "This is Christian religion" or "Hindu religion" or "Muhammadan religion." We speak the science of God. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is a verse which says: *"That is first*-class religious system which teaches the follower how to love God." It doesn't matter what is the type of religion, religious process. Phalena paricīyate : the thing is proved by the result, how one has learned to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. There are two kinds of religious engagements: one is called inferior and the other is called superior. The superior religious system is that which teaches the followers how to love God. Now, what kind of love? That is also expressed there: ahaitukī , without any motive; and apratihatā. Apratihatā means that religious system cannot be checked by any kind of material impediments. If we come to that platform, then ātmā—ātmā means the mind, the soul, also the body, intelligence—everything becomes fully satisfied. *So our this principle of teaching is based on Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Give him the book. Perhaps you have heard the name of Bhagavad-gītā , and some of you might have read it, Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra to groups of cousin-brothers. They were fighting to occupy the kingdom, and in that place Lord Kṛṣṇa, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, happened to be present as the chariot driver of one group, Arjuna. So Arjuna was trying to avoid the fighting because the other side, there were relatives, brothers. At that time he was lamenting his bodily relationship, "The other side is my brother, my grandfather, my nephews, my son-in-laws." So that was the platform of speaking Bhagavad-gītā . So first of all, Kṛṣṇa explained that "We are not this body." The first instruction was given: *The first instruction of spiritual life is to understand that, "I am not this body." The example is given, very simple thing, that I am present, although I remember that I had a small body lying down on the lap of my mother. I remember, when I was six months old, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and she was knitting. I still remember that. So everyone, we remember that we had a small body, and then another small body, then another small body. Those bodies are gone. I have got a different body now, but I remember that I had all these bodies. Therefore the conclusion should be for the sober man that "Although we have changed so many bodies, I, the person, the soul, am existing." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, when I shall give up this body, I shall accept another body. This is the beginning of understanding that, "I am not this body. I am living in this body just like I am not this coat, but I am living within the coat." *There is very vivid example in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we read, we can understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." When this realization is there that, "I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . the exact word used in the Vedic literature, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That stage has to be attained in human form of life. In the animal forms of life, this understanding that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," in the animal stage of life it is not possible to understand. But in the human form of life it is possible because human being is advanced in consciousness and knowledge, and if he is educated, he can understand. And if he actually understands, then his position becomes brahma*-bhūtaḥ , self-realized, prasannātmā . Immediately he becomes jubilant. There is no more any cause of moroseness. That is the symptom. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then there is no more hankering or lamentation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. At that stage, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, we can see everyone spirit soul. I don't see an American or a Swiss gentleman or a French gentleman or a cat or dog or tree, but I see the spirit soul. That, in that spiritual state, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , one can see that within this body there is the spirit soul, and he wants to work for benefit of the spirit soul, not for the temporary body. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just on the principles of this Bhagavad*-gītā , to understand his real identity, spiritual identity. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *One who is actually paṇḍita . . . paṇḍita means learned, and in spiritually learned, he sees that a very learned scholar, brahmin , and a dog, an elephant, a cow, or a low*-born man, creature—all on the same platform of spiritual life. So unless we come to that point, this so-called fighting and sectarianism will go on. So we want to teach people . . . not only sectarian people in India or the so-called Hindus or Muslims or Christians—everyone. Because everyone is spirit soul, and as soon as he understands that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then he becomes completely happy. Yenātmā samprasīdati. So people will not be happy, will not be satisfied, unless and until he comes to that spiritual understanding. So our humble method is on this principle that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." And the spirit soul is eternal, therefore he has got to come to the platform of eternal happiness, eternal life and full knowledge. That is the perfection of life. And any type of religion—it doesn't matter what it is—which teaches this philosophy of life, that is first*-class religious system. That is our conclusion. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (has conversation with someone in French) The president would like to talk to you for a few minutes. Yes. Give me little water. (more French conversation) I was formally received by the French Cardinal. Danielou. Daniel. (French conversation) He says that the discussion you had with the Cardinal was very interesting. Yes. Unless you come to that position of understanding that, "I am not this body," real spiritual knowledge does not begin. (French conversation) Understanding the philosophy, Monsieur le President does not understand why we find it necessary to dress differently, though. *The different dress means as you have paid for it. Just like we can go to a tailor, he will supply you dress according to the payment you can make. Similarly, according to our karma , according to our work, we are given a type of body by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). According . . . because actually I do not possess this material body, but because I am in this material world, I am given a type of body by the material nature according to my work. (French conversation) Speaking about clothes, Monsieur le President says that he has been to India, and he understands that one dresses like this in India. But why would the disciples dress in America or in Europe in this way? Is it necessary? No. It is not necessary. Dress you can have as you like. It doesn't matter, because dress is a dead thing. Real thing is that we want a living being who can understand. That is real the position. (French conversation) Monsieur le President would like to know, if this movement gets bigger and bigger, won't it create problems in terms of working, the economy? Won't the economy suffer if our movement gets bigger and bigger? *No. Economy will not suffer, but economy will be simplified, because we have made some artificial economy. Actually, in the Bhagavad*-gītā we find the economic problem is solved by producing food grains. It is stated there, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "By eating food grains, both the animals and the men, they become stout and strong." That's a fact. (Guru-gaurāṅga translates) According to Bhagavad-gītā , economic problem can be solved anywhere. If you get . . . if you have some land, you produce your food grain and give it to the animals, especially to the cows, and she will give you in return milk. So if you get milk, fruits, vegetable and food grains, the whole economic problem is solved. *We have already started this example in New Virginia. A group of men, we have got about five hundred acres of land, and we keep cows, and they work to produce some vegetable and food grain. So they don't go outside for solving economic problems. At the present moment—now I am coming from India—in Bombay there is strike, railway strike. People are in so miserable condition to go to their work fifty miles, forty miles, hundred miles for earning their bread. This kind of economic situation has increased the problems of life. Rather, if we accept this economic problem solution, then anywhere, any part of the world you live, you don't require to go outside hundred miles, two hundred miles, five hundred miles. No. You produce your food there, keep animals, then everything is solved. Actually, the problem is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : One should take up these problems very seriously: birth, death, old age and disease. So . . . actually, as spirit soul we have no birth, no death. You will find in the Bhagavad, na jayate na mriyate vā kadācit : "The living entity does not take birth." Na jayate na mriyate vā : "Neither he dies." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "After the destruction of the body, the living entity does not annihilate." He . . . just like we have got already the example: my body, childhood body, is annihilated; still, I am existing. Similarly, I will exist. Now, the problem is how I shall exist. I shall exist eternally in full knowledge and in blissfulness. That is the idea. But so long we accept this material body, it is just the opposite. It is miserable, without any knowledge and without eternity. Philosophy should be to save our time from complicated economic problems. We should make our life simple and save time for spiritual cultivation, so that we can be relieved from repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. (translating for president) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Arrival -- May 30, 1974, Geneva *(Welcomed by Governor at Hotel de Ville - translated by Guru*-gaurāṅga from French) In the name of the Canton of Geneva and the city, we wish to extend our heartfelt welcome to you. This republic is an independent state, part of Switzerland, and it has a reputation for being a great center of dialogue between all men of science, philosophy and religion. Geneva is the seat of the World Council of Churches, and there is a Protestant pastor who is there as representative of the Canton of Geneva. Unique among the cities of the world, Geneva has had the privilege to greet many great religious heads such as Pope Paul VI, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and many others. As civil authorities, we are very much encouraged by religious or spiritual groups because they contribute to wake up the consciousness of the people, provided, of course, that they respect all the laws. For thousands of years, man has tried to find perfection through religious means, and for us what is so much important is that this be done with tolerance, that whatever the books, whether they be the books of India or the Torah or the Koran, that they contribute to a general welfare of all men and not that they fight each other. There is the need currently for men to understand each other better and hear each other better. The modern world neither has the time nor the interest to tolerate divisions between men, especially on the spiritual platform. As a result, everyone must try to improve the fate of the individual man through these means. Should we not, then, try to find some common language with which to solve these problems, all the while respecting the dignity of the common man? And we hope finally that this trip in Europe will give Your Divine Grace new perspectives in the search for the truth. I can speak in English? (he asks in French) The president says that you may speak directly in English, no translation needed. *So, Monsieur President and Ladies and Gentlemen, the kind words that you have spoken to receive me, I thank you very much for the same. Our preaching principle is bhāgavata*-dharma , and we do not say: "This is Christian religion" or "Hindu religion" or "Muhammadan religion." We speak the science of God. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is a verse which says: *"That is first*-class religious system which teaches the follower how to love God." It doesn't matter what is the type of religion, religious process. Phalena paricīyate : the thing is proved by the result, how one has learned to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. There are two kinds of religious engagements: one is called inferior and the other is called superior. The superior religious system is that which teaches the followers how to love God. Now, what kind of love? That is also expressed there: ahaitukī , without any motive; and apratihatā. Apratihatā means that religious system cannot be checked by any kind of material impediments. If we come to that platform, then ātmā—ātmā means the mind, the soul, also the body, intelligence—everything becomes fully satisfied. *So our this principle of teaching is based on Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Give him the book. Perhaps you have heard the name of Bhagavad-gītā , and some of you might have read it, Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra to groups of cousin-brothers. They were fighting to occupy the kingdom, and in that place Lord Kṛṣṇa, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, happened to be present as the chariot driver of one group, Arjuna. So Arjuna was trying to avoid the fighting because the other side, there were relatives, brothers. At that time he was lamenting his bodily relationship, "The other side is my brother, my grandfather, my nephews, my son-in-laws." So that was the platform of speaking Bhagavad-gītā . So first of all, Kṛṣṇa explained that "We are not this body." The first instruction was given: *The first instruction of spiritual life is to understand that, "I am not this body." The example is given, very simple thing, that I am present, although I remember that I had a small body lying down on the lap of my mother. I remember, when I was six months old, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and she was knitting. I still remember that. So everyone, we remember that we had a small body, and then another small body, then another small body. Those bodies are gone. I have got a different body now, but I remember that I had all these bodies. Therefore the conclusion should be for the sober man that "Although we have changed so many bodies, I, the person, the soul, am existing." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, when I shall give up this body, I shall accept another body. This is the beginning of understanding that, "I am not this body. I am living in this body just like I am not this coat, but I am living within the coat." *There is very vivid example in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we read, we can understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." When this realization is there that, "I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . the exact word used in the Vedic literature, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That stage has to be attained in human form of life. In the animal forms of life, this understanding that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," in the animal stage of life it is not possible to understand. But in the human form of life it is possible because human being is advanced in consciousness and knowledge, and if he is educated, he can understand. And if he actually understands, then his position becomes brahma*-bhūtaḥ , self-realized, prasannātmā . Immediately he becomes jubilant. There is no more any cause of moroseness. That is the symptom. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then there is no more hankering or lamentation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. At that stage, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, we can see everyone spirit soul. I don't see an American or a Swiss gentleman or a French gentleman or a cat or dog or tree, but I see the spirit soul. That, in that spiritual state, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , one can see that within this body there is the spirit soul, and he wants to work for benefit of the spirit soul, not for the temporary body. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just on the principles of this Bhagavad*-gītā , to understand his real identity, spiritual identity. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *One who is actually paṇḍita . . . paṇḍita means learned, and in spiritually learned, he sees that a very learned scholar, brahmin , and a dog, an elephant, a cow, or a low*-born man, creature—all on the same platform of spiritual life. So unless we come to that point, this so-called fighting and sectarianism will go on. So we want to teach people . . . not only sectarian people in India or the so-called Hindus or Muslims or Christians—everyone. Because everyone is spirit soul, and as soon as he understands that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then he becomes completely happy. Yenātmā samprasīdati. So people will not be happy, will not be satisfied, unless and until he comes to that spiritual understanding. So our humble method is on this principle that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." And the spirit soul is eternal, therefore he has got to come to the platform of eternal happiness, eternal life and full knowledge. That is the perfection of life. And any type of religion—it doesn't matter what it is—which teaches this philosophy of life, that is first*-class religious system. That is our conclusion. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (has conversation with someone in French) The president would like to talk to you for a few minutes. Yes. Give me little water. (more French conversation) I was formally received by the French Cardinal. Danielou. Daniel. (French conversation) He says that the discussion you had with the Cardinal was very interesting. Yes. Unless you come to that position of understanding that, "I am not this body," real spiritual knowledge does not begin. (French conversation) Understanding the philosophy, Monsieur le President does not understand why we find it necessary to dress differently, though. *The different dress means as you have paid for it. Just like we can go to a tailor, he will supply you dress according to the payment you can make. Similarly, according to our karma , according to our work, we are given a type of body by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). According . . . because actually I do not possess this material body, but because I am in this material world, I am given a type of body by the material nature according to my work. (French conversation) Speaking about clothes, Monsieur le President says that he has been to India, and he understands that one dresses like this in India. But why would the disciples dress in America or in Europe in this way? Is it necessary? No. It is not necessary. Dress you can have as you like. It doesn't matter, because dress is a dead thing. Real thing is that we want a living being who can understand. That is real the position. (French conversation) Monsieur le President would like to know, if this movement gets bigger and bigger, won't it create problems in terms of working, the economy? Won't the economy suffer if our movement gets bigger and bigger? *No. Economy will not suffer, but economy will be simplified, because we have made some artificial economy. Actually, in the Bhagavad*-gītā we find the economic problem is solved by producing food grains. It is stated there, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "By eating food grains, both the animals and the men, they become stout and strong." That's a fact. (Guru-gaurāṅga translates) According to Bhagavad-gītā , economic problem can be solved anywhere. If you get . . . if you have some land, you produce your food grain and give it to the animals, especially to the cows, and she will give you in return milk. So if you get milk, fruits, vegetable and food grains, the whole economic problem is solved. *We have already started this example in New Virginia. A group of men, we have got about five hundred acres of land, and we keep cows, and they work to produce some vegetable and food grain. So they don't go outside for solving economic problems. At the present moment—now I am coming from India—in Bombay there is strike, railway strike. People are in so miserable condition to go to their work fifty miles, forty miles, hundred miles for earning their bread. This kind of economic situation has increased the problems of life. Rather, if we accept this economic problem solution, then anywhere, any part of the world you live, you don't require to go outside hundred miles, two hundred miles, five hundred miles. No. You produce your food there, keep animals, then everything is solved. Actually, the problem is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : One should take up these problems very seriously: birth, death, old age and disease. So . . . actually, as spirit soul we have no birth, no death. You will find in the Bhagavad, na jayate na mriyate vā kadācit : "The living entity does not take birth." Na jayate na mriyate vā : "Neither he dies." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "After the destruction of the body, the living entity does not annihilate." He . . . just like we have got already the example: my body, childhood body, is annihilated; still, I am existing. Similarly, I will exist. Now, the problem is how I shall exist. I shall exist eternally in full knowledge and in blissfulness. That is the idea. But so long we accept this material body, it is just the opposite. It is miserable, without any knowledge and without eternity. Philosophy should be to save our time from complicated economic problems. We should make our life simple and save time for spiritual cultivation, so that we can be relieved from repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. (translating for president) Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- May 31, 1974, Geneva *(Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha*-yogi) . . . science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so . . . Oh, yeah, I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily. That doesn't matter. But I . . . (indistinct) *It is a little technical subject, so translation. We . . . our Bhagavad*-gītā , there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1): the yogīs , they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions: sagarbha-yogī, nigarbha-yogī. So what is your special subject matter of yogī ? *I try to make a yoga who is understanding from occident . . . I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma*-yoga . There are dynamics, and . . . I don't understand that we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to . . . Beginning from abdomen? Prabhupāda: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different technique. One is praja, prajapa . . . x They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. Then they come to the heart; *then, ultimately, to the brahma*-randhra . This practice? *Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , but very, very tempered, tempere , moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma . It's more a question of conscious of awareness of the breathing and . . . Awareness of . . .? Of breathing. Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in . . . Prāṇāyāma . This is prāṇāyāma . And you must have the conscious of your breathing from mūlādhāra to ājñā , and ājñā through the lateral column to mūlādhāra . This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to . . . *That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā , by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life. Is according to . . .? *As the karmīs , they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmīs . Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs . So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogīs , they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi*-brahma , "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That . . . this bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or jñāna-yogī , it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti , this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti . So generally, the yogīs and the jñānīs , they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti , to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogaṁ . After advancing, if the yogī gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection. *Yes. I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight . . . eight*-path. *Aṣṭāṅga*-yoga , aṣṭāṅga . *Yes, aṣṭāṅga*-yoga . The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after to the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord. Sacrifice for whom? Yes. Without intention. The Lord, he said. Without personal intention. I'll speak. I'm sorry. Sacrifice . . . intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti . We are not intentionless, but purified intention. And what is your practice? Technically, I think. *Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam , to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : we hear from God personally. But with . . . through lecture? Through sound? Yes, through sound vibration. And repeat and . . . *Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta*-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So . . . *It's like japa, japa*-yoga , for example. *That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something, or I can know the Supreme, by my knowledge. "I am something, I am very important," our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogīs , they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different that, "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the Unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya , that "I am limited, I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the Unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first step, submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva . (aside) Call Nitāi. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first admission, that this way one can . . . (to Nitāi) Find out this verse. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . Jñāne prayāsam yugapāsya ? *It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā . In the *Bhāgavatam* ? *In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . But . . . Oh, that's jñāna prayāsam . . . *In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. Verse twenty (SB 10.14.20). *Yes. You can find out in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . In the Kṛṣṇa book we find out, when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered. I think, first part. This is in English. What would it be? It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. About the fourteenth paragraph. *Maha*-Visnu . . . (indistinct) No, not that. We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes. Fourteenth paragraph, what is written? Fourteenth is, "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa." Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph. *Jito 'pi. Jito 'py asi tais tri*-lokyām . Where we have explained in English. What is the . . .? Madhya-līlā ? *This is Madhya*-līlā , Eighth Chapter. You have got? Not here. It's in Bombay. No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? So why not . . . Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay. No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter. Not published yet. No. *What is this book, this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *That is Ādi*-līlā. Ādi-līlā , not Madhya-līlā . *Oh, not Madhya*-līlā . No. Third paragraph, it should begin. The third paragraph of the chapter? *Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad*-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor." *So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender, and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad*-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is . . . especially in the Western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma Purāṇa there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi , statement that, "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No, 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair point is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas , that is taken as Absolute Truth, and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. *So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, one ten*-thousandth portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna , like that, the vāyu . The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogī . *Yogī , first*-class yogī , is he who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I am talking also, thinking of Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon I stop talking, immediately my "Hare Kṛṣṇa" goes on. So remembrance is there, we don't forget Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) . . . thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So naturally, kṛṣṇa-samādhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Kṛṣṇa . . . and Kṛṣṇa recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogī ." *It is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice . . . this practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self*-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā : yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran ? *Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ . Yes, this is very important. "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail." *So we are practicing this bhakti*-yoga and teaching others also. And when people is not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to . . . when his mind is not prepared to his life, what are you doing? How can you educate people to come vegetarian and . . .? No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to . . . Yes, but European people. Occidental people is not to be . . . They are all occidental. Yes, yes, you, but majority of people. How do you . . .? Occidental means Eastern, er, Western? Yes. Western. Yes. They are all Western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said: "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha , live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa . . . so generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra . But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. Yes. *That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat*-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible. I am according, but how to understand, how to make understand these things? *This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that, "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the svāmīs, yogīs and . . . don't mind, I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ (BG 6.17). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . If you are yogī , if you want siddhi , then you must eat and sleep and accept things— yukta. Yukta means "As it is required." Not more than that, not less than that. That is yukta . We don't say that you starve. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there, but married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on . . . in New York there is a yogī —I do not wish to name his . . . but in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not? Yes, it is. Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogī . Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? (long pause) I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way very strong, with a technique with a little different as yoga . For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux , like aikido, judo and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand. What is that? It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid for death, and is a first problem how to transcend human life, how to transcend the . . . la mort . To transcend death. Death, yes. How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, combat , the combat . . . Combat. Fighting. Fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple . . . (coughing) Water, little. . . . to make the problem very, very clear, and they fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam . . . A sword. . . . and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so . . . we can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to . . . No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice? No, he don't kill, but he make like he will killed, but he don't killed. Of course not. (laughs) That is another . . . But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way very interesting. But . . . *Hmm. That is automatically taught in bhakti*-yoga . Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. It is said: "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga . But if the master is such (chuckles) a rascal that if he asks the disciple that, "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi , like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama . Yes, and first is yama and niyama . *I know several yogīs , so*-called yogīs , in New York, they are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. Here, and in the America, there are so many women, they have no husband. So naturally they want sex life with others. And there are many such persons take advantage of this. Take fees also. (chuckles) Take fees. (pause) You read the Sixth Chapter, " Yoga Practice" portion? How to sit, how to look, how to behave? Yoga is not for people who is eating too much and sleeping too much. Not sleeping. It says: The first condition is eka , "alone." Now where is that facility? Actually, yogīs used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, not in the city, with so many people. Ekākī , this word is used. Eka . . .? Ekākī. Ekākī means alone. (to Nitāi) Eh? Go on. *Yata*-cittātmā nirāśīr aparigrahaḥ. Nirāśī means without any motive. And aparigraha , without accepting anything from anyone else. Aparigraha . Then? It says, śucau deśe pratiṣṭhāpya. Śucau deśe , a very sanctified place. Therefore Indian yogīs , they go to Haridwar, Himalaya. Eh? Sthiram āsanam . Sthiram āsanam. Āsanam , you must be fixed up. The yogīs will not leave their āsana. Sthira-āsanam. Then? *Nāty*-ucchritaṁ nāti-nīcaṁ. They must not very much raise; not very much lower. Then? *Cailājina*-kuśottaram. *Cailājina*-kuśottaram . That kuśa , the straw, and the deerskin, cailājina-kuśottaram. Then? Tatraikāgraṁ manaḥ kṛtvā. *Eka*-brahma. Meditation, concentrated, manaḥ kṛtvā . *Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ . *Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ. *Upaviśyāsane yuñjyād yogam ātma*-viśuddhaye . Yes. Upaviśyāsane , sitting on the āsana , one should be purified. Then? *Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ. Yes. Samaṁ kāya-śiro. The kāya , this body, and the neck and the head in straight line. Then? Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ. Acalaṁ , without any movement. Then? Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ. And half eyes open, and seeing the point of the nose. Diśaś cānavalokayan. Hmm. Not to look any other way; simply . . . these are the practice. Who is going to do that? Ekākī , alone in a sanctified place, making the āsana , doing like that. Then? Go on. *Says, praśāntātmā vigata*-bhīr. *No fear. He is sitting alone in the Himalaya, no . . . not afraid of anything, vigata*-bhī. Then? *Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. *Brahmacāri . This is very . . . no sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrata. And they are taking fees, they are having sex with the disciple. That yogīs . Just see. This is going on. Brahmacāri-vrate ? *Manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ . *Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ : "Always thinking of Me," viṣṇu-mūrti or kṛṣṇa-mūrti . Then? *Yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ. *Ah, yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ : "Always thinking of Me." Then? *Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata*-mānasaḥ. "In this way, one who practices yoga . . ." *Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa*-paramām. ". . . then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa ." *Mat*-saṁsthām adhigacchati. *Mat*-saṁsthām . "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then? Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti. Ah, nāty aśnataḥ . It is not that you should not eat, abstain. No. Eat very little. So? Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ . Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat. *Na cāti*-svapna-śīlasya. "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then? *Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya . . . *Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. *Hmm. These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That's all. (end) Conversation A -- May 31, 1974, Geneva *(Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha*-yogi) . . . science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so . . . Oh, yeah, I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily. That doesn't matter. But I . . . (indistinct) *It is a little technical subject, so translation. We . . . our Bhagavad*-gītā , there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1): the yogīs , they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions: sagarbha-yogī, nigarbha-yogī. So what is your special subject matter of yogī ? *I try to make a yoga who is understanding from occident . . . I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma*-yoga . There are dynamics, and . . . I don't understand that we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to . . . Beginning from abdomen? Prabhupāda: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different technique. One is praja, prajapa . . . x They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. Then they come to the heart; *then, ultimately, to the brahma*-randhra . This practice? *Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , but very, very tempered, tempere , moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma . It's more a question of conscious of awareness of the breathing and . . . Awareness of . . .? Of breathing. Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in . . . Prāṇāyāma . This is prāṇāyāma . And you must have the conscious of your breathing from mūlādhāra to ājñā , and ājñā through the lateral column to mūlādhāra . This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to . . . *That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā , by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life. Is according to . . .? *As the karmīs , they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmīs . Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs . So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogīs , they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi*-brahma , "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That . . . this bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or jñāna-yogī , it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti , this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti . So generally, the yogīs and the jñānīs , they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti , to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogaṁ . After advancing, if the yogī gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection. *Yes. I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight . . . eight*-path. *Aṣṭāṅga*-yoga , aṣṭāṅga . *Yes, aṣṭāṅga*-yoga . The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after to the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord. Sacrifice for whom? Yes. Without intention. The Lord, he said. Without personal intention. I'll speak. I'm sorry. Sacrifice . . . intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti . We are not intentionless, but purified intention. And what is your practice? Technically, I think. *Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam , to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : we hear from God personally. But with . . . through lecture? Through sound? Yes, through sound vibration. And repeat and . . . *Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta*-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So . . . *It's like japa, japa*-yoga , for example. *That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something, or I can know the Supreme, by my knowledge. "I am something, I am very important," our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogīs , they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different that, "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the Unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya , that "I am limited, I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the Unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first step, submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva . (aside) Call Nitāi. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first admission, that this way one can . . . (to Nitāi) Find out this verse. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . Jñāne prayāsam yugapāsya ? *It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā . In the *Bhāgavatam* ? *In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . But . . . Oh, that's jñāna prayāsam . . . *In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. Verse twenty (SB 10.14.20). *Yes. You can find out in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . In the Kṛṣṇa book we find out, when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered. I think, first part. This is in English. What would it be? It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. About the fourteenth paragraph. *Maha*-Visnu . . . (indistinct) No, not that. We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes. Fourteenth paragraph, what is written? Fourteenth is, "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa." Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph. *Jito 'pi. Jito 'py asi tais tri*-lokyām . Where we have explained in English. What is the . . .? Madhya-līlā ? *This is Madhya*-līlā , Eighth Chapter. You have got? Not here. It's in Bombay. No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? So why not . . . Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay. No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter. Not published yet. No. *What is this book, this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *That is Ādi*-līlā. Ādi-līlā , not Madhya-līlā . *Oh, not Madhya*-līlā . No. Third paragraph, it should begin. The third paragraph of the chapter? *Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad*-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor." *So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender, and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad*-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is . . . especially in the Western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma Purāṇa there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi , statement that, "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No, 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair point is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas , that is taken as Absolute Truth, and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. *So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, one ten*-thousandth portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna , like that, the vāyu . The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogī . *Yogī , first*-class yogī , is he who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I am talking also, thinking of Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon I stop talking, immediately my "Hare Kṛṣṇa" goes on. So remembrance is there, we don't forget Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) . . . thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So naturally, kṛṣṇa-samādhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Kṛṣṇa . . . and Kṛṣṇa recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogī ." *It is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice . . . this practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self*-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā : yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran ? *Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ . Yes, this is very important. "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail." *So we are practicing this bhakti*-yoga and teaching others also. And when people is not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to . . . when his mind is not prepared to his life, what are you doing? How can you educate people to come vegetarian and . . .? No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to . . . Yes, but European people. Occidental people is not to be . . . They are all occidental. Yes, yes, you, but majority of people. How do you . . .? Occidental means Eastern, er, Western? Yes. Western. Yes. They are all Western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said: "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha , live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa . . . so generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra . But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. Yes. *That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat*-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible. I am according, but how to understand, how to make understand these things? *This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that, "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the svāmīs, yogīs and . . . don't mind, I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ (BG 6.17). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . If you are yogī , if you want siddhi , then you must eat and sleep and accept things— yukta. Yukta means "As it is required." Not more than that, not less than that. That is yukta . We don't say that you starve. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there, but married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on . . . in New York there is a yogī —I do not wish to name his . . . but in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not? Yes, it is. Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogī . Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? (long pause) I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way very strong, with a technique with a little different as yoga . For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux , like aikido, judo and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand. What is that? It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid for death, and is a first problem how to transcend human life, how to transcend the . . . la mort . To transcend death. Death, yes. How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, combat , the combat . . . Combat. Fighting. Fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple . . . (coughing) Water, little. . . . to make the problem very, very clear, and they fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam . . . A sword. . . . and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so . . . we can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to . . . No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice? No, he don't kill, but he make like he will killed, but he don't killed. Of course not. (laughs) That is another . . . But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way very interesting. But . . . *Hmm. That is automatically taught in bhakti*-yoga . Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. It is said: "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga . But if the master is such (chuckles) a rascal that if he asks the disciple that, "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi , like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama . Yes, and first is yama and niyama . *I know several yogīs , so*-called yogīs , in New York, they are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. Here, and in the America, there are so many women, they have no husband. So naturally they want sex life with others. And there are many such persons take advantage of this. Take fees also. (chuckles) Take fees. (pause) You read the Sixth Chapter, " Yoga Practice" portion? How to sit, how to look, how to behave? Yoga is not for people who is eating too much and sleeping too much. Not sleeping. It says: The first condition is eka , "alone." Now where is that facility? Actually, yogīs used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, not in the city, with so many people. Ekākī , this word is used. Eka . . .? Ekākī. Ekākī means alone. (to Nitāi) Eh? Go on. *Yata*-cittātmā nirāśīr aparigrahaḥ. Nirāśī means without any motive. And aparigraha , without accepting anything from anyone else. Aparigraha . Then? It says, śucau deśe pratiṣṭhāpya. Śucau deśe , a very sanctified place. Therefore Indian yogīs , they go to Haridwar, Himalaya. Eh? Sthiram āsanam . Sthiram āsanam. Āsanam , you must be fixed up. The yogīs will not leave their āsana. Sthira-āsanam. Then? *Nāty*-ucchritaṁ nāti-nīcaṁ. They must not very much raise; not very much lower. Then? *Cailājina*-kuśottaram. *Cailājina*-kuśottaram . That kuśa , the straw, and the deerskin, cailājina-kuśottaram. Then? Tatraikāgraṁ manaḥ kṛtvā. *Eka*-brahma. Meditation, concentrated, manaḥ kṛtvā . *Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ . *Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ. *Upaviśyāsane yuñjyād yogam ātma*-viśuddhaye . Yes. Upaviśyāsane , sitting on the āsana , one should be purified. Then? *Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ. Yes. Samaṁ kāya-śiro. The kāya , this body, and the neck and the head in straight line. Then? Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ. Acalaṁ , without any movement. Then? Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ. And half eyes open, and seeing the point of the nose. Diśaś cānavalokayan. Hmm. Not to look any other way; simply . . . these are the practice. Who is going to do that? Ekākī , alone in a sanctified place, making the āsana , doing like that. Then? Go on. *Says, praśāntātmā vigata*-bhīr. *No fear. He is sitting alone in the Himalaya, no . . . not afraid of anything, vigata*-bhī. Then? *Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. *Brahmacāri . This is very . . . no sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrata. And they are taking fees, they are having sex with the disciple. That yogīs . Just see. This is going on. Brahmacāri-vrate ? *Manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ . *Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ : "Always thinking of Me," viṣṇu-mūrti or kṛṣṇa-mūrti . Then? *Yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ. *Ah, yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ : "Always thinking of Me." Then? *Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata*-mānasaḥ. "In this way, one who practices yoga . . ." *Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa*-paramām. ". . . then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa ." *Mat*-saṁsthām adhigacchati. *Mat*-saṁsthām . "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then? Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti. Ah, nāty aśnataḥ . It is not that you should not eat, abstain. No. Eat very little. So? Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ . Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat. *Na cāti*-svapna-śīlasya. "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then? *Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya . . . *Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. *Hmm. These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That's all. (end) Conversation A -- June 4, 1974, Geneva (Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne) . . . our books. *Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad*-gītā I have not yet received. *Not yet seen Bhagavad*-gītā ? He has seen, but he will get today. And perhaps some questions I could put to you? Yes. *But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions, because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without the guru . And, for instance, one of the first questions I have to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa , it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Yes. Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* . Is that . . . practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of . . . Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen *Purāṇas* . Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika , and six are rājasika , and six are tāmasika . The sāttvika *Purāṇas* , they are Vaiṣṇava literature: *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, *Padma Purāṇa*. The same . . . because I understood through . . . it is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in . . . by Rāmānuja or *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu. *No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. (aside) Find out this verse. Tenth Chapter. So sarvasya . There are originally three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ : I am the origin of all the deities." Read it. "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." *Yes, that I know what it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one questions what I had to put that . . . and also . . . may I sit down on . . .? I would be much more . . . Oh, yes. Give him another pad. *Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , there are two questions that I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra , and the Kṛṣṇa, the Yādava Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world . . . that is also in the Bhāgavatam , that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the . . . and in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ (Bs. 5.48). You understand? Yes, I understand. *Viṣṇur mahān , Mahā*-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation . . . there is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ , partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi. Yasya hi . . . yasya . . . what is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā ? You have a copy downstairs. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40)? *No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita*-kālam avalambya . Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. (break) Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha , second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, I see, but . . . It is like that. Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna . . . Huh? *It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam . Infallible. Anādi : He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). Still, He's just a fresh, young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. (aside) Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gītā , sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ . What is that? "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages." *Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have . . . because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya*-ist atheist. How could it be? Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is . . . original Kapila is Devahūti . . . son of Devahūti, Kapila. *It's what we can't find in Bhagavad*-gītā with . . . *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated Sāṅkhya philosophy. And this Sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not original Kapila. Not a true Kapila. No. And Buddha? *Buddha is śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; *Muhammad, śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered, and he preaches the philosophy on behalf. That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra . There are different types of avatāras—guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra , like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , about avatāras . (aside) You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya , avatāras , innumerable avatāras . Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ . It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing, you cannot count. Or in the . . . what is that? Avatāra . Read, read that chapter. "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras , or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend." *"The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation for the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world." *"The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā, or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons." *"The material nature acts in two capacities, as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa*-avatāra , Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas , or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Eleventh Canto, and the predominating Deity is Aniruddha . Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky, and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are." *"These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu." *"The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body, and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe, tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic . . . (break) . . . Viṣṇu is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it." *"The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the Ocean of Milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras ." *"Then He described the līlāvatāras . He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā , or pastime, avatāras , but some of them may be described by the Lord, for example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras , is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity, by the influence of the mode of material passion, is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā , Fifth Chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme . . . (break) . . . lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candlepower, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp." This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle, then from this candle another candle, another candle. There are many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still, the first one is called original. So far the candlepower is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle, like that. Yes, I understand. *Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta*-hetuḥ (Bs. 5.46). They are not derived from any other power. They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (Bs. 5.46). This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam . He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha, who was teaching practically atheist doctrine and no . . . *That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, First Part. *I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that he was . . . he didn't need to preach the worship of God because he was himself God. Yes. But he doesn't say it in the text. *That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sammohāya , just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men were advocating, "There is no God." So he appeared before them . . . and they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the nonviolence. So therefore he is God himself, and he is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating. Yes. Not teaching, but cheating. Yes. (laughing) So sometimes . . . just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says: "No, no, you don't require to go to.There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically he says: "You don't require to go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. (laughs) Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God. Yes, he is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from *Vedas* we understand that he is incarnation of God. *But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā , but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains. *Ahiṁsā , because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña . Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are, who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas . . . because Vedas , animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantra s. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras . So for that purpose, animal sacrifice . . . just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals—frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put, and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so*-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal . . . ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ . He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence . . . just like Christians says that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that . . . I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere? So I said that he is powerful, he can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said: 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara , godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example: The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful; *we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is . . . but people, on slight imitation . . . is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said . . . and he preached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christian will maintain big, big, up*-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? *So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas . They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say: "In the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ : 'The animals are created for being killed.' " And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing . . . actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidence. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that, "I don't care for your Vedas ." Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction. Yes. *So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas ." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas . So if he says: "No violence," then it is against Vedas . Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not—he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction"—therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas . Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. We . . . from philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know that he is God. He is God, incarnation of God. I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra . That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen? I have seen. *Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, viṣṇu*-mūrti . And . . . but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else. Person? He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person. Yes, person. But Brahman is not person. Brahman. Huh? He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals. Yes. That is all right. Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman . That is śūnyavādī . We say also. So they are . . . I think it's . . . I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that, for instance, what I find here . . . There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances . . . just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto me. Obey me." But that is religion. Yes. So the religion is . . . one who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything . . . that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That (break). You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion. But I noted that, for instance, our Christian approach to God . . . In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God. *It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa*-brahman is the higher form of, than . . . *Nirguṇa*-brahman . . . just like . . . here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after . . . Geneva lake. Geneva lake, and few step after, French lake. Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French. So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say: "The cloudy sky." The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one. It is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say: "This is cloudy sky." Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. Now, one question still. Why in Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa? Oh, yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already . . . there is no difference. Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa. No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa. Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the . . . So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the *Upaniṣads* , they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. *So you cannot understand the goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya , the goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. *(break) . . . seeing very, very distant, ninety*-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see? But if you have got the capacity to run on . . . just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet . . . actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain. But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness. *Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. Because personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The . . . just like, the same example: the sun-god, the sun planet and the sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. So sun*-god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand it. Therefore stop. (break) . . . light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said: "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower-class students, "One plus two equal to three. Two plus two . . ." that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand. Yes, of course. That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three. No. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad . . . ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So *Vedas* and scriptures are there, differently, according to different condition. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people, you can understand. The first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling, "Thou shall not kill"? The Muhammad also said: "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also. Lord Buddha said: "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that. *Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so*-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . . Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all. Yes, but in his personal . . . Gandhi, actually he did not know anything. *Yes, he read Bhagavad*-gītā in English. (laughs) That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no *Mahābhārata* or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that. But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words. Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil. But nonviolence is not well in every case? *No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā . What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; *but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām . Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily. But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . . First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām : those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves. Awfully. Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed. Yes. (laughter) *The Fascist and the non*-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names. Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically. *So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so*-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra , simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished. *But they have still 4,000 years of Kali*-yuga. Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill? Yes. Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa. Yes, of course. *That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four*-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing. "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead." Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him. *Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, that's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do, He says: "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility, "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says: "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right, do it." But you'll have to get the result of it. I thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. It was very, extremely useful. Just ends some problems. How many students do you have? (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 4, 1974, Geneva (Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne) . . . our books. *Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad*-gītā I have not yet received. *Not yet seen Bhagavad*-gītā ? He has seen, but he will get today. And perhaps some questions I could put to you? Yes. *But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions, because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without the guru . And, for instance, one of the first questions I have to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa , it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Yes. Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* . Is that . . . practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of . . . Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen *Purāṇas* . Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika , and six are rājasika , and six are tāmasika . The sāttvika *Purāṇas* , they are Vaiṣṇava literature: *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, *Padma Purāṇa*. The same . . . because I understood through . . . it is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in . . . by Rāmānuja or *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu. *No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. (aside) Find out this verse. Tenth Chapter. So sarvasya . There are originally three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ : I am the origin of all the deities." Read it. "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." *Yes, that I know what it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one questions what I had to put that . . . and also . . . may I sit down on . . .? I would be much more . . . Oh, yes. Give him another pad. *Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , there are two questions that I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra , and the Kṛṣṇa, the Yādava Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world . . . that is also in the Bhāgavatam , that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the . . . and in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ (Bs. 5.48). You understand? Yes, I understand. *Viṣṇur mahān , Mahā*-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation . . . there is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ , partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi. Yasya hi . . . yasya . . . what is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā ? You have a copy downstairs. Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40)? *No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita*-kālam avalambya . Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. (break) Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha , second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yes, I see, but . . . It is like that. Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna . . . Huh? *It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam . Infallible. Anādi : He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). Still, He's just a fresh, young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. (aside) Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gītā , sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ . What is that? "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages." *Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have . . . because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya*-ist atheist. How could it be? Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is . . . original Kapila is Devahūti . . . son of Devahūti, Kapila. *It's what we can't find in Bhagavad*-gītā with . . . *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated Sāṅkhya philosophy. And this Sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not original Kapila. Not a true Kapila. No. And Buddha? *Buddha is śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; *Muhammad, śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered, and he preaches the philosophy on behalf. That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra . There are different types of avatāras—guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra , like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , about avatāras . (aside) You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya , avatāras , innumerable avatāras . Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ . It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing, you cannot count. Or in the . . . what is that? Avatāra . Read, read that chapter. "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras , or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend." *"The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation for the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world." *"The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā, or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons." *"The material nature acts in two capacities, as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa*-avatāra , Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas , or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Eleventh Canto, and the predominating Deity is Aniruddha . Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky, and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are." *"These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu." *"The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body, and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe, tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic . . . (break) . . . Viṣṇu is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it." *"The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the Ocean of Milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras ." *"Then He described the līlāvatāras . He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā , or pastime, avatāras , but some of them may be described by the Lord, for example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras , is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity, by the influence of the mode of material passion, is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā , Fifth Chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme . . . (break) . . . lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candlepower, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp." This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle, then from this candle another candle, another candle. There are many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still, the first one is called original. So far the candlepower is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle, like that. Yes, I understand. *Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta*-hetuḥ (Bs. 5.46). They are not derived from any other power. They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (Bs. 5.46). This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam . He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha, who was teaching practically atheist doctrine and no . . . *That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, First Part. *I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that he was . . . he didn't need to preach the worship of God because he was himself God. Yes. But he doesn't say it in the text. *That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sammohāya , just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men were advocating, "There is no God." So he appeared before them . . . and they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the nonviolence. So therefore he is God himself, and he is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating. Yes. Not teaching, but cheating. Yes. (laughing) So sometimes . . . just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says: "No, no, you don't require to go to.There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically he says: "You don't require to go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. (laughs) Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God. Yes, he is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from *Vedas* we understand that he is incarnation of God. *But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā , but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains. *Ahiṁsā , because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña . Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are, who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas . . . because Vedas , animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantra s. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras . So for that purpose, animal sacrifice . . . just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals—frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put, and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so*-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal . . . ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ . He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence . . . just like Christians says that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that . . . I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere? So I said that he is powerful, he can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said: 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara , godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example: The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful; *we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is . . . but people, on slight imitation . . . is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said . . . and he preached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christian will maintain big, big, up*-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? *So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas . They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say: "In the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ : 'The animals are created for being killed.' " And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing . . . actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidence. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that, "I don't care for your Vedas ." Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction. Yes. *So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas ." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas . So if he says: "No violence," then it is against Vedas . Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not—he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction"—therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas . Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. We . . . from philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know that he is God. He is God, incarnation of God. I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra . That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen? I have seen. *Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, viṣṇu*-mūrti . And . . . but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else. Person? He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person. Yes, person. But Brahman is not person. Brahman. Huh? He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals. Yes. That is all right. Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman . That is śūnyavādī . We say also. So they are . . . I think it's . . . I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that, for instance, what I find here . . . There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances . . . just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto me. Obey me." But that is religion. Yes. So the religion is . . . one who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything . . . that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That (break). You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion. But I noted that, for instance, our Christian approach to God . . . In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God. *It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa*-brahman is the higher form of, than . . . *Nirguṇa*-brahman . . . just like . . . here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after . . . Geneva lake. Geneva lake, and few step after, French lake. Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French. So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say: "The cloudy sky." The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one. It is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say: "This is cloudy sky." Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. Now, one question still. Why in Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa? Oh, yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already . . . there is no difference. Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa. No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa. Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the . . . So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the *Upaniṣads* , they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. *So you cannot understand the goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya , the goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. *(break) . . . seeing very, very distant, ninety*-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see? But if you have got the capacity to run on . . . just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet . . . actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain. But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness. *Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. Because personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The . . . just like, the same example: the sun-god, the sun planet and the sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. So sun*-god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand it. Therefore stop. (break) . . . light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said: "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower-class students, "One plus two equal to three. Two plus two . . ." that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand. Yes, of course. That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three. No. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad . . . ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So *Vedas* and scriptures are there, differently, according to different condition. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people, you can understand. The first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling, "Thou shall not kill"? The Muhammad also said: "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also. Lord Buddha said: "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that. *Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so*-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . . Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all. Yes, but in his personal . . . Gandhi, actually he did not know anything. *Yes, he read Bhagavad*-gītā in English. (laughs) That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no *Mahābhārata* or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that. But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words. Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil. But nonviolence is not well in every case? *No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā . What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; *but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām . Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily. But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . . First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām : those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves. Awfully. Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed. Yes. (laughter) *The Fascist and the non*-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names. Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically. *So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so*-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra , simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished. *But they have still 4,000 years of Kali*-yuga. Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill? Yes. Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa. Yes, of course. *That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four*-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing. "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead." Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him. *Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, that's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do, He says: "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility, "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says: "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right, do it." But you'll have to get the result of it. I thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. It was very, extremely useful. Just ends some problems. How many students do you have? (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 5, 1974, Geneva (With M. Douant, the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; Mlle. Peritier, a member of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; M. Morrel, the Dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Geneva; *M. Roche*-dieu, former honorary professor of history of religion of the University of Geneva; and a theology student.) (French) Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Centre in Geneva. One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Centre? Yes, Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant. The President. Why don't you give him a chair? (French) (French) Little rheumatism. Give him chair. *Yes, he's . . . Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva. Monsieur Roche*-dieu, who is the . . . Doyen . . .? Former . . . former Honorary Professor of History of Religions in the faculty of theology, Protestant theology. *Mr. Roche*-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion. Ah. (French) Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university. (French) (French) Theology student. Our spiritual master, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. So you have shown our books? (French) Sixty volumes of these books. (French—Yogeśvara showing books) *And Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Whose are those pictures? Our students'. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations. Indian students? No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students. No. American students, under my direction. (translates) You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of . . . (aside) You have that letter? The letter, in English. (French, explains contents of letter regarding standing orders) Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliage who is in Chicago, department, religious department? What is his name? M. Eliage, Eliage. Professor Eliage? *E*-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman. Eliage, Professor Eliage . . . Eliade. Eliade. Eliade. Chicago University? No, I have never gone to Chicago. Is not Professor Dimock from Chicago? Yes. Professor Dimock. Perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimock. He's head of which department? East Asian. *The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad*-gītā . I have been in there, yes. Chicago University Department. (French) He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka . What is the symbolism, significance? It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides. (Yogeśvara translates Prabhupāda's answers through out. (French) The shaved head, he's asking the significance. This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean. (French) These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking. Yes. Especially the brāhmins , they keep the shaven head. Brāhmins are the topmost class. (aside) What is the symptoms of brāhmin , find out. *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmins work." *So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra , natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section like the belly, another section like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). (aside) Find out this verse. Page? 235. You have it? You want to read it? "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates) Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and . . . all of them required . . . you cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmins are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā ? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain, because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā. (aside) So their qualification, brāhmin qualification, find out page. It's eight twelve. Eight twelve? 8 12. (reads verse 18.42 translation in French) (French) He says: "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?" Outcaste? There are four castes only. But there are the outcastes, and they have . . . Do you mean the untouchables? Untouchables. *Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras . They are called pañcamas . These are four divisions: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class, but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas , or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas , the fifth*-class men, are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is . . . māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya . (aside) Read it. "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination." *So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction, because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere, and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Māṁ ca . . . (aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān . . . "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction. (French) (French) *He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu*-saṁhitā , for example, śūdras are not to be instructed. *Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra . A devotee is no longer śūdra . We are creating brāhmins . Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu*-saṁhitā , they are mlecchas, yavanas . But we are not keeping them mleccha and yavanas . Just like these European and American boys, they are accepting the Vedic regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas . They are brāhmins . So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmin , Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmin , he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana . He is brāhmin , or Vaiṣṇava. (French) He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists, because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system. No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science, he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism or Hinduism; *it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa*-karma . One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated. (French) (French) In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea. Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction. (French) (aside) What was his first point? The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian, whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmin . So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmin . How does one become brāhmin ? Brāhmin means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the Ten Commandments, how you can become Christian? (French) *First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the Ten Commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa*-karma : by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops, either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then they are equal. (aside) Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Read it. This is the ideal of equality. (aside) Find out. "The supreme occupation, dharma , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *So our this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism . One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata . That is first*-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all. (French) In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing. That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all. Yes. Love God and love the man too. Why man? Simply love God; *then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find, God says: So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals . . . Living being. Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian, I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being, I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God. (French) Life is a wholeness, a view, and there is no division between animals and man. Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that, "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics—the same spirit soul. (aside) Read that. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma . So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that, "Only love the human being." There is no such thing. (French) He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God." But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal . . . just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant—the animal may be ignorant—but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal? (French) He's asking, "How do we see ourselves, and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society?" (giving further translation) Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity . . . No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that, "These are human beings; they should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa, elephants; they are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hollow, the hole of your room, there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God, and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them? (French) (translating) He says: "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain . . . many species that do eat meat." Among the animals. But you are not animal. They do not eat anything else. But you are not animal. Animals among . . . the tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion? (French) (translating) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe . . . just like a man who has one hundred sheep, and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed. That's all right. But why you should kill animal? *At the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā , if I remember . . . And Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning, disobedience. How you can become Christian? *Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught through Bhagavad*-gītā , in some way, is that he should not restrain and that . . . *But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad*-gītā . When there is aggression you have the right to kill, but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful. (French) Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants? Why do we make the distinction, then, between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants? We do not kill plants also. We take . . . of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say: "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. There must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says—find out this— patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). (translating) . . . jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French) . . . *There is no jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Here Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me these things, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam ." There is no question of jīvasya jīvanam. Just hear. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, "Give Me this food." So we take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. We don't directly do anything. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them, and then we take it. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Kṛṣṇa's, not mine. (French) (aside) Why don't you open this? *He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' " You must kill always. Yes. Because you object that . . . your chief, army chief, and your duty is to . . . *(aside) Where is that . . .? Where is that quotation? Are . . . you know . . . where is the quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? (French) He says in the beginning of the *Gītā* , Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight. Why? "Because you are kṣatriya . There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for . . ." Just like my hands, kṣatriya . If there is attack, it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight, because you are hand. (French) He says, "But then Kṛṣṇa says: 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification . . ." But Kṛṣṇa does not say: "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals." (French) Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court, and if you say that, "He is not killed," will you be saved? (French) He says: "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only . . .?" Huh? *He says: "How is that, that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad*-gītā teaches?" *Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become . . . (aside) Find out that verse, yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ (BG 7.28). This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful, you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. (break) (translating) Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate and . . . *What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic . . . pillars of sinful activities . . . just like four pillars. One is this meat*-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress. (French) He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously. But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped. (French) He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things. Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows. (French) This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man. The fellow man helping, what does he gain? (French) He says,:"Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities . . ." No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question. (French) He says: "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself." But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him? Certain circumstance. He says: "In certain circumstances." In certain circumstances. But if you do not know how to . . . suppose a man is diseased and you think . . . the doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that, "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping; that is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not . . . helping means, real helping is, that a man or animal, anyone . . . everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help. (French) The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger . . . there's a danger in what he calls "Spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually . . . But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he . . . that is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego that, "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that, "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good. I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question. What is that? That how can we say that to give people . . . that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress. But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do? (French) He says: "Probably not very much." He said: "But maybe we can do something." Then this is simply a false pride that, "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service that, "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact? Yes. So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk? (French) *(to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You want to translate that? "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons." But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also, they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If . . . the Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows? (French) That's interesting. That's an interesting point. He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free . . . Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not . . ."? They are all false things? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center, and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. (aside) Read it. (reads French translation) Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. (aside) Read the purport. (reads purport in French) So, so far I have studied . . . I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this—produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land . . ." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff? There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food? (French) He says all of these things, they are known. He says, they know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this . . . And therefore knowledge is required. He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice. If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. What is lacking is love. *That is not love. I love you, I will kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means . . . you see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all. Yes, but true knowledge is, within, love. That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others. No, no. That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons. Here's that verse. Here is the verse. (reads French translation) (French) His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that. But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge? (French) He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego and this pride. What is that knowledge? So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me and in him? What do you think? (aside to Swiss man) Is that right? Did I translate it? (French) He says that . . . first of all, he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher, spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us. Yes. But he says now . . . but there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that. Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept. *(to Guru*-gaurāṅga) Was there something else that I missed? (French) Yes. That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying, but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motorcar, big motorcar, big machine, is moving, but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement—real mover is the spirit—you have to admit. Yes, they are willing to. Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately . . . so I am also īśvara , means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara , "the supreme controller." That is God. *(to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You can translate that? (translates) So there are two īśvaras . I am also īśvara . So far my this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things—material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of . . . Swiss man (4): Geneva. . . . Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things: animate and inanimate. One section, animate; *another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras . We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. But supreme God, the supreme controller, is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit . . . we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge. (Guru*-gaurāṅga translates) (French) (French) He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content." Thank you. We do have other questions on the same level. (French) He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us. Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father. (French) Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Huh? Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. It is external. *Kṛṣṇa . . . somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle: the another . . . ignite another candle, ignite another candle. Now, all these candles, so far light*-giving power, the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble, because the candlepower is the same. (French) He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior? What do you mean by "savior"? (French) He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being. Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering. So savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead. (French) When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru , the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru ? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa . . . Guru . . . guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference, because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message, he is neither guru , nor son, nothing of the sort. Swiss man (2) and others: (French) What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure . . . they're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or . . .? *We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . ." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is, either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru , Ninth Chapter. Yes. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). 9.34 Translation. "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus, does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process: "Engage your mind in Me." Then? So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of God—it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see: *"The first*-class yogī is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point. (French) (translating) "And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, your . . . our philosophy is that naturally these others things—charity, humanitarian works—they will all come naturally?" *Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given . . . (break) . . . one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor*-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the USA also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious. (French) (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them." Hmm? "And you said them." I am very glad to have . . . to heard you saying these. Thank you. (aside) Bring prasāda . That's positive. (French conversation) Show him the pictures. (French conversation) We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children. Are you from Los Angeles? No, I'm from New York. This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here. (French conversation with devotees; prasādam is served) Right there. The young man behind you. (French) (break) . . . how well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to . . . He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures. Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education. We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee. (French) (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said: "Yes, but then I went and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties." Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that,"Some of the hippies," like that. Have you been in connection with Aurobindo? Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo? Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo? Because he's . . . well known in Europe. He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. Because he wrote on the Veda and . . . We never . . . why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted. Aurobindo was . . . Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee. (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them. And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (aside) Give this flower. Thank you. And God bless you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation—choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now did I say wrong that, "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?" You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right. It's great. I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? He could not know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said: "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager: "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir." Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism? That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity. He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think . . ." That's all. ". . . think we can do something." *You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said . . . he belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds that, "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big, become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that, "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor . . . now, those who have accepted voluntarily poverty*-ism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them? Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood. This is karma . If you have bad karma , then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son. Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said: "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand. *Very good idea. Therefore I said that Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor*-feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone— paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national? You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant, but that does not mean you kill them. Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this? There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane, and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food, they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating . . . Cow's flesh. When it was? This was about . . . now it is almost a month ago, one month ago. Where it was? In the Andes mountains? High in the mountains. Huh? High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed. South America. Is it South . . . Andes, yes. I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed, and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles, "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No." *Who's left a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā here? Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy. There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything. One thing, though, on that report. I read that there were certain people . . . There was no vegetable? No, it was way up in the mountains. Icy, cold. It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere. And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies—his fiancee or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies, they would eat them last. Huh? *It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister*-in-law, cousin. They said: "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that. No, in last war they ate stool also. Concentration camps. Really? Phew. What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view? What is that? Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break the regulative principles—if it is necessary? If it is necessary. What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years? Saubhari? Viśvāmitra. Vālmīki. No. Viśvāmitra? Viśvāmitra. He also had to eat dog, I think. Yes. There's a story about that. Yes, it is said. How they exist in that open, and there was snow? For eighteen . . . eighteen days? The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on the blankets and their coats. But there was no . . . they could not go outside. There was no food. They had . . . at first they had little chocolate, and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves, "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that, "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it, and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did. They made some . . . afterwards they had to . . . there was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that, "We must eat this flesh to stay alive, but it's not so wrong, since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this." Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise, dead body's flesh is as good as anything else, because it is matter. (break) There are other meetings tonight? Who is coming? There is one more meeting today. Where? There is the European Centre for Nuclear Research. What can I do there? (laughter) They're coming. This man has worked in India . . . (break) *. . . for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga . . . (SB 7.6.1). Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā. The same thing. Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat? Little fruit and a little this. (end) Conversation A -- June 5, 1974, Geneva (With M. Douant, the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; Mlle. Peritier, a member of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; M. Morrel, the Dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Geneva; *M. Roche*-dieu, former honorary professor of history of religion of the University of Geneva; and a theology student.) (French) Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Centre in Geneva. One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Centre? Yes, Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant. The President. Why don't you give him a chair? (French) (French) Little rheumatism. Give him chair. *Yes, he's . . . Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva. Monsieur Roche*-dieu, who is the . . . Doyen . . .? Former . . . former Honorary Professor of History of Religions in the faculty of theology, Protestant theology. *Mr. Roche*-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion. Ah. (French) Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university. (French) (French) Theology student. Our spiritual master, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. So you have shown our books? (French) Sixty volumes of these books. (French—Yogeśvara showing books) *And Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Whose are those pictures? Our students'. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations. Indian students? No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students. No. American students, under my direction. (translates) You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of . . . (aside) You have that letter? The letter, in English. (French, explains contents of letter regarding standing orders) Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliage who is in Chicago, department, religious department? What is his name? M. Eliage, Eliage. Professor Eliage? *E*-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman. Eliage, Professor Eliage . . . Eliade. Eliade. Eliade. Chicago University? No, I have never gone to Chicago. Is not Professor Dimock from Chicago? Yes. Professor Dimock. Perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimock. He's head of which department? East Asian. *The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad*-gītā . I have been in there, yes. Chicago University Department. (French) He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka . What is the symbolism, significance? It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides. (Yogeśvara translates Prabhupāda's answers through out. (French) The shaved head, he's asking the significance. This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean. (French) These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking. Yes. Especially the brāhmins , they keep the shaven head. Brāhmins are the topmost class. (aside) What is the symptoms of brāhmin , find out. *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmins work." *So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra , natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section like the belly, another section like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). (aside) Find out this verse. Page? 235. You have it? You want to read it? "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates) Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and . . . all of them required . . . you cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmins are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā ? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain, because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā. (aside) So their qualification, brāhmin qualification, find out page. It's eight twelve. Eight twelve? 8 12. (reads verse 18.42 translation in French) (French) He says: "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?" Outcaste? There are four castes only. But there are the outcastes, and they have . . . Do you mean the untouchables? Untouchables. *Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras . They are called pañcamas . These are four divisions: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class, but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas , or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas , the fifth*-class men, are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is . . . māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya . (aside) Read it. "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination." *So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction, because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere, and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Māṁ ca . . . (aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān . . . "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction. (French) (French) *He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu*-saṁhitā , for example, śūdras are not to be instructed. *Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra . A devotee is no longer śūdra . We are creating brāhmins . Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu*-saṁhitā , they are mlecchas, yavanas . But we are not keeping them mleccha and yavanas . Just like these European and American boys, they are accepting the Vedic regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas . They are brāhmins . So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmin , Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmin , he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana . He is brāhmin , or Vaiṣṇava. (French) He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists, because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system. No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science, he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism or Hinduism; *it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa*-karma . One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated. (French) (French) In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea. Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction. (French) (aside) What was his first point? The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian, whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmin . So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmin . How does one become brāhmin ? Brāhmin means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the Ten Commandments, how you can become Christian? (French) *First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the Ten Commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa*-karma : by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops, either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then they are equal. (aside) Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Read it. This is the ideal of equality. (aside) Find out. "The supreme occupation, dharma , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *So our this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism . One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata . That is first*-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all. (French) In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing. That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all. Yes. Love God and love the man too. Why man? Simply love God; *then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find, God says: So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals . . . Living being. Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian, I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being, I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God. (French) Life is a wholeness, a view, and there is no division between animals and man. Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that, "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics—the same spirit soul. (aside) Read that. *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma . So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that, "Only love the human being." There is no such thing. (French) He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God." But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal . . . just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant—the animal may be ignorant—but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal? (French) He's asking, "How do we see ourselves, and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society?" (giving further translation) Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity . . . No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that, "These are human beings; they should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa, elephants; they are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hollow, the hole of your room, there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God, and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them? (French) (translating) He says: "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain . . . many species that do eat meat." Among the animals. But you are not animal. They do not eat anything else. But you are not animal. Animals among . . . the tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion? (French) (translating) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe . . . just like a man who has one hundred sheep, and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed. That's all right. But why you should kill animal? *At the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā , if I remember . . . And Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning, disobedience. How you can become Christian? *Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught through Bhagavad*-gītā , in some way, is that he should not restrain and that . . . *But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad*-gītā . When there is aggression you have the right to kill, but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful. (French) Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants? Why do we make the distinction, then, between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants? We do not kill plants also. We take . . . of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say: "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. There must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says—find out this— patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). (translating) . . . jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French) . . . *There is no jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Here Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me these things, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam ." There is no question of jīvasya jīvanam. Just hear. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, "Give Me this food." So we take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. We don't directly do anything. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them, and then we take it. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Kṛṣṇa's, not mine. (French) (aside) Why don't you open this? *He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' " You must kill always. Yes. Because you object that . . . your chief, army chief, and your duty is to . . . *(aside) Where is that . . .? Where is that quotation? Are . . . you know . . . where is the quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? (French) He says in the beginning of the *Gītā* , Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight. Why? "Because you are kṣatriya . There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for . . ." Just like my hands, kṣatriya . If there is attack, it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight, because you are hand. (French) He says, "But then Kṛṣṇa says: 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification . . ." But Kṛṣṇa does not say: "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals." (French) Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court, and if you say that, "He is not killed," will you be saved? (French) He says: "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only . . .?" Huh? *He says: "How is that, that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad*-gītā teaches?" *Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become . . . (aside) Find out that verse, yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ (BG 7.28). This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful, you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. (break) (translating) Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate and . . . *What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic . . . pillars of sinful activities . . . just like four pillars. One is this meat*-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress. (French) He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously. But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped. (French) He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things. Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows. (French) This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man. The fellow man helping, what does he gain? (French) He says,:"Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities . . ." No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question. (French) He says: "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself." But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him? Certain circumstance. He says: "In certain circumstances." In certain circumstances. But if you do not know how to . . . suppose a man is diseased and you think . . . the doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that, "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping; that is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not . . . helping means, real helping is, that a man or animal, anyone . . . everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help. (French) The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger . . . there's a danger in what he calls "Spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually . . . But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he . . . that is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego that, "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that, "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good. I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question. What is that? That how can we say that to give people . . . that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress. But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do? (French) He says: "Probably not very much." He said: "But maybe we can do something." Then this is simply a false pride that, "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service that, "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact? Yes. So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk? (French) *(to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You want to translate that? "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons." But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also, they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If . . . the Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows? (French) That's interesting. That's an interesting point. He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free . . . Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not . . ."? They are all false things? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center, and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. (aside) Read it. (reads French translation) Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. (aside) Read the purport. (reads purport in French) So, so far I have studied . . . I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this—produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land . . ." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff? There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food? (French) He says all of these things, they are known. He says, they know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this . . . And therefore knowledge is required. He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice. If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. What is lacking is love. *That is not love. I love you, I will kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means . . . you see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all. Yes, but true knowledge is, within, love. That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others. No, no. That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons. Here's that verse. Here is the verse. (reads French translation) (French) His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that. But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge? (French) He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego and this pride. What is that knowledge? So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me and in him? What do you think? (aside to Swiss man) Is that right? Did I translate it? (French) He says that . . . first of all, he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher, spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us. Yes. But he says now . . . but there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that. Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept. *(to Guru*-gaurāṅga) Was there something else that I missed? (French) Yes. That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying, but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motorcar, big motorcar, big machine, is moving, but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement—real mover is the spirit—you have to admit. Yes, they are willing to. Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately . . . so I am also īśvara , means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara , "the supreme controller." That is God. *(to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You can translate that? (translates) So there are two īśvaras . I am also īśvara . So far my this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things—material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of . . . Swiss man (4): Geneva. . . . Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things: animate and inanimate. One section, animate; *another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras . We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. But supreme God, the supreme controller, is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit . . . we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge. (Guru*-gaurāṅga translates) (French) (French) He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content." Thank you. We do have other questions on the same level. (French) He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us. Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father. (French) Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Huh? Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. It is external. *Kṛṣṇa . . . somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle: the another . . . ignite another candle, ignite another candle. Now, all these candles, so far light*-giving power, the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble, because the candlepower is the same. (French) He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior? What do you mean by "savior"? (French) He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being. Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering. So savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead. (French) When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru , the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru ? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa . . . Guru . . . guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference, because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message, he is neither guru , nor son, nothing of the sort. Swiss man (2) and others: (French) What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure . . . they're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or . . .? *We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . ." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is, either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru , Ninth Chapter. Yes. Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). 9.34 Translation. "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus, does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process: "Engage your mind in Me." Then? So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of God—it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see: *"The first*-class yogī is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point. (French) (translating) "And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, your . . . our philosophy is that naturally these others things—charity, humanitarian works—they will all come naturally?" *Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given . . . (break) . . . one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor*-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the USA also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious. (French) (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them." Hmm? "And you said them." I am very glad to have . . . to heard you saying these. Thank you. (aside) Bring prasāda . That's positive. (French conversation) Show him the pictures. (French conversation) We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children. Are you from Los Angeles? No, I'm from New York. This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here. (French conversation with devotees; prasādam is served) Right there. The young man behind you. (French) (break) . . . how well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to . . . He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures. Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education. We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee. (French) (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said: "Yes, but then I went and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties." Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that,"Some of the hippies," like that. Have you been in connection with Aurobindo? Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo? Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo? Because he's . . . well known in Europe. He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. Because he wrote on the Veda and . . . We never . . . why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted. Aurobindo was . . . Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee. (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them. And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (aside) Give this flower. Thank you. And God bless you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation—choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now did I say wrong that, "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?" You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right. It's great. I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? He could not know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said: "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager: "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir." Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism? That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity. He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think . . ." That's all. ". . . think we can do something." *You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said . . . he belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds that, "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big, become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that, "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor . . . now, those who have accepted voluntarily poverty*-ism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them? Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood. This is karma . If you have bad karma , then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son. Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said: "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand. *Very good idea. Therefore I said that Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor*-feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone— paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national? You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant, but that does not mean you kill them. Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this? There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane, and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food, they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating . . . Cow's flesh. When it was? This was about . . . now it is almost a month ago, one month ago. Where it was? In the Andes mountains? High in the mountains. Huh? High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed. South America. Is it South . . . Andes, yes. I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed, and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles, "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No." *Who's left a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā here? Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy. There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything. One thing, though, on that report. I read that there were certain people . . . There was no vegetable? No, it was way up in the mountains. Icy, cold. It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere. And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies—his fiancee or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies, they would eat them last. Huh? *It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister*-in-law, cousin. They said: "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that. No, in last war they ate stool also. Concentration camps. Really? Phew. What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view? What is that? Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break the regulative principles—if it is necessary? If it is necessary. What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years? Saubhari? Viśvāmitra. Vālmīki. No. Viśvāmitra? Viśvāmitra. He also had to eat dog, I think. Yes. There's a story about that. Yes, it is said. How they exist in that open, and there was snow? For eighteen . . . eighteen days? The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on the blankets and their coats. But there was no . . . they could not go outside. There was no food. They had . . . at first they had little chocolate, and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves, "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that, "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it, and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did. They made some . . . afterwards they had to . . . there was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that, "We must eat this flesh to stay alive, but it's not so wrong, since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this." Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise, dead body's flesh is as good as anything else, because it is matter. (break) There are other meetings tonight? Who is coming? There is one more meeting today. Where? There is the European Centre for Nuclear Research. What can I do there? (laughter) They're coming. This man has worked in India . . . (break) *. . . for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga . . . (SB 7.6.1). Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā. The same thing. Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat? Little fruit and a little this. (end) Conversation -- June 10, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Christian Priest, Mr. Chenique) *Mr. Chenique has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad*-gītā , and now you see he is wearing a dhotī , he's coming to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's coming for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gītā . But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter) Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Brahman, Paramātmā . . . he understands English? Yes. Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then Personality of Godhead. (Jyotirmayī translates into French) Jyotirmayī, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are. Yeah, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was . . . In India, where did you stay? In Poona. Poona, oh. How long you were there? *Twenty*-five years. Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter) Half of my time, yes. I was in India half my life. *Twenty*-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally. Did you come to Poona? Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think. Yes, not far. Yes. Poona is nice place. Climate is nice. For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit. Yes, there are many good scholars. Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich. Yes. Maharashtrian, they are educated, advanced. How do you find your disciples here in Europe? Yes. (laughs) I shouldn't ask personal question. No, it is not personal. It is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone. It does, it does. Yes. Not only here in Europe—in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center. Australia. In Bombay also you have got? Oh, yes. Bombay just now we have got a very big place. Yes. And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasādam . We are at Juhu quarter. At Juhu. (someone enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here. You have been to India? You've worked there. Yes. *Yes, he was twenty*-five years there. *Twenty*-five years. He is Indian. (laughter) And I was . . . I mean I am still a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but not of the old tradition of Maharashtra, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of Pandharpur, Viṭhobā. Vaiṣṇava. Well . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, that Viṭhṭhala, Viṭhṭhala. Viṭhṭhala, there is. So they are Vaiṣṇava. And it's the main . . . (indistinct) . . . center of Maharashtra. Yes, Pandharpur. *When I went to India twenty*-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage. What was your subject matter studying? I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brāhmin pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharashtra, Orissa, Jnaneshvara. Tukārāma, Tukārāma. Tukārāma. Oh. I have proceeded Tukārāma. Tukārāma is in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's right. He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga , that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya. It's a great bhakti tradition. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . (aside) Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti . "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." *So in another place also it is said, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.68). "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, then always think of Me," man-manā , "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles. It is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So by uttering the word Kṛṣṇa , immediately you think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma . . . what is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, everyone can see how these young boys and girls—they are not very old; *they have taken to it quite young—but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got—Kṛṣṇa dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life—no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Kṛṣṇa says that, "Surely you come back to Me." What is the second line? Man-manā . . . *Mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat*-parāyaṇaḥ. *In another place it is said asaṁśaya . That is in the Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn—they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. *The first*-class yogīs . Actually, no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa, tongue, and hear with the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir (SB 10.14.3): by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending . . . "We" means Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says that, "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God. Why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name? Jehovah. Jehovah? He has no name in Christianity. Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa; what is the harm? Every religion believes—not believes; it is fact—that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion? Buddhist religion? But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament. No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible. You have got many idea of God. No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God. Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience. Yes. And this experience is different of many people. But you experience . . . because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect. But who is to say . . . That is . . . . . . what is a perfect experience? Yes. No. Even we are imperfect, with our . . . as far as our knowledge goes, now generally, just like the Christians, they say: "God is great." Is it not? That is rather the Muslims. Huh? That is Muslim. Allah. Allahu akbar . So what is the conception of God of the Christian? As you said, it's impersonal, transpersonal, that what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship. Yes. Relationship means that He must be a person. No. Why? Otherwise, how you can . . . It is beyond a person. Beyond the person . . . just like we have got experience: when you call "relation," then "relation" means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation. Oh, yes. So relation means two person—one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person. Yeah, but what we don't . . . we don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself. What is that, relation itself? Explain. It's when you are two together, when the master . . . Then two together means person. As soon as you . . . Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation. Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two person. No. No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no? You see, I have got relation . . . We are two person. . . . with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship. No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation, as we have got relation? Certainly. As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise. Yes, but I don't make of God the object of relationship. Then what . . . Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship. A relation with who? Relation with anything. That is God? That is God. What is that? He thinks relationship with anything means God. Anything? Yes, anything. Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship with you, so then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter . . . But in your Bible you say: "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible, "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father. But . . . But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son. No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the Christianity of this country. There are two main conceptions—the oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western . . . No, we are not talking of any particular Church. We are just trying to understand the word relation . . . . (indistinct) If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship . So in the Bible it is clearly said: "O Father," so the relation is father and son. No. Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no? You have to . . . I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma, you know. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced, but what is my own experience. No, no. God's relationship should be universal, not that . . . it may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is . . . No. You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion; that is a different thing. But we have to have the opinion which we experience. What is that experience? You ask: "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the *Vedas* also it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānām , the chief, the Supreme. And in the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka , that one; God is one. Bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān : He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the *Vedas* and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way—as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are relative with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife. I don't think so. I mean . . . No, no, that is your personal opinion. But . . . Not opinion; experience. So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience? That God is beyond all our experience. Then what is your experience? You have no experience. (laughs) If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience. Personally, of course, but . . . Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience. But if you know what you can't explain . . . No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know. You don't think an illusion . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship. No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing. That is knowledge. Yeah, but that knowledge is very . . . (indistinct) Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach, because you do not know, it is not within your experience. That's why I don't preach. That's all right, then . . . (laughs) (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience. No. So you cannot explain. That is all right. That means I have the experience . . . But . . . . . . that my experience is limited . . . But that's all right. . . . and God is unlimited. That is all right. That I admit. Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God. No, no, no. Just like you know . . . And nobody can. . . . you do not know me; you have no experience about me. No. But if I say: "I am like this," you will get experience. No. Then why no? If I live with you for some time . . . Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swāmījī might have one thousand dollar," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say: "No, I have got one million dollar," then you get the experience. No. Why no? I will get the experience of you when we are living together. That means you cannot talk with God. Of course not. That's it. But if anyone can talk? Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection. That's all right. But my experience is that you cannot . . . That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process. Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that. *Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. So direct experience, taking experience, "I am like this." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, Find out this verse. "I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Just see. This experience. *Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad*-gītā ? God. I mean, you need to have faith for that. Huh? What is that? *You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad*-gītā . Why faith? God is God. Why faith? Because, you know, I have been living in . . . No, no. You have no experience, you have said. You have no experience. No, I have not said. You said I did. No, you said that God is beyond your experience. You said. A real svāmī listen first if he wants to profit. First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience. That's right. That is my experience. That's all right. That's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience. Yes, I have. You say God is beyond your experience, you say. Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience. Because I found out that all my experience does not mean God. But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about? No, you don't . . . you see . . . Then it is a bit difficult. I have always told that the duty of the svāmī is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand. No, no, you said . . . first of all let us . . . why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God. No, I never said that. Then tell me your experience. That I want to know. That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta , and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience. That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you? That the image of God, as do you call it Kṛṣṇa or Rāma or Nṛsiṁha or any of the avatāra . . . and you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar, there was a svāmī who called himself an avatāra , and . . . That anyone can say. I can say third avatāra , he can say fourth avatāra . So if anyone can say . . . That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say: "I am avatāra ." Exactly. So . . . So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatāra ? No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatāra . We have got documents who is avatāra . Kṛṣṇa. No, Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . He is the origin. That it is stated here, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You know Sanskrit? Then what is the meaning of ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ ? "I am the source of all avatāra ." Yeah, but who has written that? Hmm? Who has written that? Śrīla Vyāsa. Anywhere he has written. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has written. Kṛṣṇa has spoken, Vyāsadeva has written, and it is accepted. But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it . . . (indistinct) No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress. Ah, you have to go beyond. As soon as you . . . just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother, and you believe that, "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect. That's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father. Yeah, but you know . . . If you say: "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know. The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or . . . (indistinct) No, no, I mean to say . . . *. . . that "I am an avatāra " or "I am Guru Mahārāj*-ji" or "I am . . ." so to say, "Meher Baba" or "Satya Sai Baba," so many bābās exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really bābā ? They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatāra , and they have many disciples . . . But we don't believe them. No, but they have many disciples. Many disciples, that is another thing. Millions. Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody . . . so many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity. And if I had said that . . . *It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : Kṛṣṇa does not say that, "Millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it. That's right. We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is paramparā . Just like in India—you have been in India—there are ācāryas : Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya. If the ācārya accept, then you accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Rāmānujācārya, high quality devotee; Madhvācārya, high quality devotee; *Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says—yes. So Śaṅkarācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Rāmānujācārya says: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvācārya says: "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā, nāsāv munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A muni , a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām : it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Big personalities, ācāryas —that is the process. Ācāryopāsanam . What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Ācāryopāsanam : we have to understand through the ācāryas . That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa in the Tenth Chapter. (aside) Find out, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. Read it. Hmm. What is that translation? *"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." So Kṛṣṇa says, and He is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, Asita, Nārada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says: "I am avatāra ," "I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the ācāryas , therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. As soon mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. So Arjuna says that paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12): "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is our point. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and . . . Kṛṣṇa comes, and He is accepted by all the great ācāryas . Then our business is perfect. (pause) So give them prasāda . Yes. I have prasādam in my office. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). *Have you seen our Bhagavad*-gītā ? He saw our all books. He is a scholar. This is a translation of Bhāgavata Purāṇa. *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In sixty volumes we will translate this. *We have Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Here it is. *And the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, all volumes. Would you like to see some of the pictures? Yes, yes. These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanātana Gosvāmī. The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees. (as prasādam is brought in) This is one of our other specialties. *Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). *This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . It's a description of the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. That's in two volumes. It's a tremendous work. (chuckles) Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world. This is *Nectar of Devotion* , by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the *Purāṇas* , and he supports devotional service. This is what you use for your devotional service? They're a model. We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and distributing of prasādam . And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupāda's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kīrtana in the temple. Yes. This is why I am coming. And no one is from India. (laughs) I could see, because in India you don't find that. Mr. Chenique wanted to ask you some questions. He's going to say in French, and I can translate. (French) He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching. Do you remember this gentleman? Hmm? He was the one who wrote that book. Herbert? Yes, that's right. Mr. Herbert? Yes. He's asking your opinion of him. Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist. (French) So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Māyāvādī, he is impersonalist. (French) But if he . . . he has already written one book. He has presented me, that Kṛṣṇa . . . The Yoga of Love. The Yoga of Love . So he has many times repeated the word "Kṛṣṇa." That will benefit him. (Jyotirmayī translates) (French) He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking . . . God is person, then? What did he say? Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal? Like he said that in Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson . . . *Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence. Just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all*-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person—sun-god, Vivasvān, he is person—he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato. By expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, this Brahman, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, tad brahma (Bs. 5.40). That Brahman. Brahman is . . . just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god. (Jyotirmayī translates) . . . and in Bhāgavata also it is stated: *The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. (Jyotirmayī translates) And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything—Brahman, Paramātmā, everything, Bhagavān." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Viṣṇu, myself, the world manifested, everything. (French) You take that sweet preparation. (chuckles) Yes. (French) He is asking if it is possible for young Christians . . . because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God—that in fact is not really a name—by the name Kṛṣṇa, because according to what you are explaining, God is Kṛṣṇa. So can they chant the name of Kṛṣṇa? *Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means . . . the Sanskrit word is īśvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "The Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, īśvara , God. Everyone is god; that is another thing. But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , the Supreme God, is Kṛṣṇa. (Jyotirmayī translates, explaining īśvara ) Supreme. We have got experience of īśvara . Just like I said, everyone is īśvara , everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also īśvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is īśvara . But these īśvaras , they are controlled by another īśvara . We are īśvara , but I am controlled by another īśvara . But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1), He is īśvara , but He is not controlled by anyone. That is parama , supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under . . . "being" and "Supreme Being." We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way you go, if you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, He is Supreme Being. This is the idea. (Jyotirmayī translates) *Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat , "There is no more controller beyond that, Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). And in Brahma-samhita, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form, body. Govinda ādi-puruṣam. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. "O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Kṛṣṇa is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. That is final God. Otherwise God . . . you will find—you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Kṛṣṇa, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattaḥ parataram. Parataram means better, or higher principle. No. (Jyotirmayī translates) Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam (BG 10.12). "You are person"— puruṣam means person— śāśvatam , "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, by Devala, by Nārada." Then it is final. (Jyotirmayī translates) *The Vedas say, therefore, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru . Vyāsadeva is the original guru . He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyāsadeva, ācāryas . So this is the instruction of the Vedas . Tad-vijñānārtham : in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet . And who is guru ? Śrotriyam , one who has heard from his guru , authorized person, śrotriyam, brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), and firmly convinced in the science of God. (Jyotirmayī translates) (Prabhupāda tells someone to open window) You can open more. Open more. Yes. You can open. How does one get the experience of personal existence of God? That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject. You did not hear? I was just asking. No. You are asking me or asking him? No, for his benefit. (Prabhupāda laughs) You were talking experience. Yes. So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person. No. I went through that experience, and I would like . . . I mean . . . may I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Kṛṣṇa, I said I would like much more to do so. (brief conversation in French) He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Kṛṣṇa consciousness what is missing in Christianity, to help them in their own development. Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity. (French) They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here? To tell you that you are not following. (laughter) But then there is no need to dress as you dress. Huh? Why do you dress in that way, which is an Indian way and not the European way? Then why Christian go there? They should not. Then we should not. Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong. No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and . . . (indistinct) . . .? Therefore anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say. I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian. No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe? True. Then you cannot say that, "Why you have come here?" You cannot say. No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians? I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you dress. Did I say that you do it? It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a . . . (indistinct) . . . priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them. I don't know if you have been to . . . No, no. Just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that, "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. It is like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that, "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there? It's not wrong; it's funny. Yes. Rather, these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your coun . . . way. That I am . . . (indistinct) . . . for it. (laughs) So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it? Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhotī and . . . But we are not concerned with the dress; we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding. That's all. Jyotirmayī, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock? No, he's not here yet . . . (indistinct) Have you got any French literature of conception . . . (indistinct) Yes, yes. French literature. He's asking for French literature. (French) (break) He translated the Tukārāma in French. Tukārāma. Tukārāma. Tukārāma is great Vaiṣṇava devotee of Maharashtra. His movement was saṅkīrtana movement. He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya? Yes. This was southern India? Southern India? Maharashtra. Maharashtra, yes. Southwest. For the north it is south and the south it is . . . (indistinct) ( japa ) Śrīla Prabhupāda, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible. Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God And also that . . . Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son? They talk about the Trilogy—the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is like, compared like the Father . . . Bhagavān, Paramātmā and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11), it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is that not explained? It's on His right hand. Huh? On his right side he's supposed to be seated. Yes. These are all personal ideas. And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Hmm? "Hallowed be Thy name." "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." That's nice. They're praising the name of the Lord. Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following. (Jyotirmayī briefly translates into French for guests) *Muhammadanism also Vaiṣṇavism, because Muhammad says: "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dāsya*-rasa, dāsya. Śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya, mādhurya . So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer—both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dāsyam sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. So we don't say that, "This is bad" and "This is good." No. Both of them are bhakti . To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes: Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrūra, the example is given. Akrūra got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? This is also prayer, our prayer, prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in Your service." That's it. So that is vandana . So vandana , and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," asking something for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, "Engage me in Your service," little advanced. Because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs. *So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ārto arthārthī jñānī ca, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārtaḥ (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ means distress, ārtaḥ , one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say: "Ah. Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say: "No, sir." "Now pray to us." Then "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have brought this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured. That is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit, that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you . . . eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), He is supplying food for everyone. If He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. *So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Kṛṣṇa or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gītā : imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha (BG 4.1), "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." The sun*-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being. He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). He is the origin of everything. And He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata . (aside) Find out this verse. Find out. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." *So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God. That is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs, because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ , there is dharma , some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā . If somebody says: "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him. It is very . . ." they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam , the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74). So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi . . . (aside) Find out this verse: *This tattva*-darśinaḥ means experience. What is that? *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Purport. *"The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād*-bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19)—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect." We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama . (aside) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries? (break) . . . record? Which record? From this afternoon, the recording. Oh, yes. Play now. Find out. It's upstairs, or it's right out here. That's all right. You have got? I think so. (French) He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion. No. We are recommending, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that. (Jyotirmayī translates) (French) He said that in Christianity God has no name. Hmm? God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ. So they chant . . . But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No? (Jyotirmayī translates) No. But you said that His name be glorified. They say: "Hallowed be Thy name." But the name is not said. Yes. They have not said it. Jesus said that, "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says: "but there is more to be told." So that's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Kṛṣṇa"? (Jyotirmayī translates) What is the objection? (French) *Caitanya Mahāprabhu says . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis . *Bahudhā : God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Kṛṣṇa is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śakti tatrārpitā . That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken? (Jyotirmayī translates) Yeah, but you can take "Rāma," you can take "Paraśurāma," you can take "Nṛsiṁha." Yes, yes, any name, any name. Kṛṣṇa has no special . . . No. Special there is. In this way: it is recommended in the śāstra , recommended in the śāstra, harer nāma. Harer means of God. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So this is the . . . we have . . . have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaiṣṇava. Does it matter . . . *Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra*-nāma, viṣṇu sahasra . But in another place it is said, other Upaniṣad , Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . this name is recommended. Just like Agni Purāṇa and Kalisantaraṇa Upaniṣad , in this Vedic literature, this . . . Yeah, but each Upaniṣad will recommend its own, I mean, specific deity, you know. Rāma, as you say, Hare Rāma. Or Śiva. Yes, Rāma is all right. Rāma we chant. Hare Rāma we chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma. Rāma also we chant. Yes. Or Śiva. I mean, you see, in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad . . . Also in the *Bhāgavatam*, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . . . (SB 12.3.51). I mean, whatever it is. You have got bhakti also in the Śaivites, all the advanced . . . The argument . . . if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name. Yes. The idea is that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to . . . Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Harer nāma means God's name. You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti , and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had the Jesus bhakti . And in your country, in America today, like you have got Hare Kṛṣṇa, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, is it also very present in many places. And the name does not matter, you know? There is no name who has got the . . . because then you find again what . . . No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing. Yeah, but I mean, this is another point. But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name? Yeah, but this is another discussion . . . (indistinct) . . . what we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it . . . That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says . . . just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son. Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name. Yes. (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son? No, it is not that question. The question is . . . Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Kṛṣṇa is a very common name . . . Yeah. . . . in the sense that many people may be called Kṛṣṇa. But the Supreme God is also called Kṛṣṇa. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme. Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name. That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching, "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing. Now if you think that Jesus Christ's name is also . . . you can chant, we have no objection we have no. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right. And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah. Yes. Name Kṛṣṇa, Allah, Jesus . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the . . . Allah, Allah. Allah is not name. That is written . . . it is not the name. It is just like the idea of God. Yeah. Allah means God, īśvara . Allah means also . . . (indistinct) But that is not the name. That is . . . just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person also. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So "President" is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name. Do you know the Sufi? Huh? Do you know the Sufis are Muslims . . . (indistinct) No. They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say . . . Allah means God. *Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah, the all*-knowing, is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that. Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant. That's all. Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the *Padma Purāṇa* , about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar. Yes. He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram , which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting " ha rāma ," which means "Where is Lord Rāma?" so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation. Although he did not mean Rāma, he condemned the boar as haram , "condemned," but the . . . Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharashtra of the hunter. Yes, may be the same story. Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then . . . it is a common story. Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. (end) Conversation -- June 10, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Christian Priest, Mr. Chenique) *Mr. Chenique has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad*-gītā , and now you see he is wearing a dhotī , he's coming to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's coming for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gītā . But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter) Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Brahman, Paramātmā . . . he understands English? Yes. Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then Personality of Godhead. (Jyotirmayī translates into French) Jyotirmayī, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are. Yeah, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was . . . In India, where did you stay? In Poona. Poona, oh. How long you were there? *Twenty*-five years. Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter) Half of my time, yes. I was in India half my life. *Twenty*-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally. Did you come to Poona? Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think. Yes, not far. Yes. Poona is nice place. Climate is nice. For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit. Yes, there are many good scholars. Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich. Yes. Maharashtrian, they are educated, advanced. How do you find your disciples here in Europe? Yes. (laughs) I shouldn't ask personal question. No, it is not personal. It is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone. It does, it does. Yes. Not only here in Europe—in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center. Australia. In Bombay also you have got? Oh, yes. Bombay just now we have got a very big place. Yes. And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasādam . We are at Juhu quarter. At Juhu. (someone enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here. You have been to India? You've worked there. Yes. *Yes, he was twenty*-five years there. *Twenty*-five years. He is Indian. (laughter) And I was . . . I mean I am still a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but not of the old tradition of Maharashtra, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of Pandharpur, Viṭhobā. Vaiṣṇava. Well . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, that Viṭhṭhala, Viṭhṭhala. Viṭhṭhala, there is. So they are Vaiṣṇava. And it's the main . . . (indistinct) . . . center of Maharashtra. Yes, Pandharpur. *When I went to India twenty*-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage. What was your subject matter studying? I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brāhmin pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharashtra, Orissa, Jnaneshvara. Tukārāma, Tukārāma. Tukārāma. Oh. I have proceeded Tukārāma. Tukārāma is in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's right. He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga , that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya. It's a great bhakti tradition. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . (aside) Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti . "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." *So in another place also it is said, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.68). "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, then always think of Me," man-manā , "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles. It is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So by uttering the word Kṛṣṇa , immediately you think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma . . . what is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, everyone can see how these young boys and girls—they are not very old; *they have taken to it quite young—but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got—Kṛṣṇa dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life—no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Kṛṣṇa says that, "Surely you come back to Me." What is the second line? Man-manā . . . *Mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat*-parāyaṇaḥ. *In another place it is said asaṁśaya . That is in the Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn—they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. *The first*-class yogīs . Actually, no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa, tongue, and hear with the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir (SB 10.14.3): by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending . . . "We" means Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says that, "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God. Why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name? Jehovah. Jehovah? He has no name in Christianity. Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa; what is the harm? Every religion believes—not believes; it is fact—that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion? Buddhist religion? But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament. No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible. You have got many idea of God. No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God. Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience. Yes. And this experience is different of many people. But you experience . . . because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect. But who is to say . . . That is . . . . . . what is a perfect experience? Yes. No. Even we are imperfect, with our . . . as far as our knowledge goes, now generally, just like the Christians, they say: "God is great." Is it not? That is rather the Muslims. Huh? That is Muslim. Allah. Allahu akbar . So what is the conception of God of the Christian? As you said, it's impersonal, transpersonal, that what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship. Yes. Relationship means that He must be a person. No. Why? Otherwise, how you can . . . It is beyond a person. Beyond the person . . . just like we have got experience: when you call "relation," then "relation" means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation. Oh, yes. So relation means two person—one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person. Yeah, but what we don't . . . we don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself. What is that, relation itself? Explain. It's when you are two together, when the master . . . Then two together means person. As soon as you . . . Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation. Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two person. No. No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no? You see, I have got relation . . . We are two person. . . . with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship. No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation, as we have got relation? Certainly. As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise. Yes, but I don't make of God the object of relationship. Then what . . . Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship. A relation with who? Relation with anything. That is God? That is God. What is that? He thinks relationship with anything means God. Anything? Yes, anything. Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship with you, so then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter . . . But in your Bible you say: "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible, "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father. But . . . But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son. No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the Christianity of this country. There are two main conceptions—the oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western . . . No, we are not talking of any particular Church. We are just trying to understand the word relation . . . . (indistinct) If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship . So in the Bible it is clearly said: "O Father," so the relation is father and son. No. Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no? You have to . . . I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma, you know. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced, but what is my own experience. No, no. God's relationship should be universal, not that . . . it may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is . . . No. You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion; that is a different thing. But we have to have the opinion which we experience. What is that experience? You ask: "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the *Vedas* also it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānām , the chief, the Supreme. And in the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka , that one; God is one. Bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān : He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the *Vedas* and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way—as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are relative with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife. I don't think so. I mean . . . No, no, that is your personal opinion. But . . . Not opinion; experience. So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience? That God is beyond all our experience. Then what is your experience? You have no experience. (laughs) If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience. Personally, of course, but . . . Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience. But if you know what you can't explain . . . No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know. You don't think an illusion . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship. No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing. That is knowledge. Yeah, but that knowledge is very . . . (indistinct) Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach, because you do not know, it is not within your experience. That's why I don't preach. That's all right, then . . . (laughs) (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience. No. So you cannot explain. That is all right. That means I have the experience . . . But . . . . . . that my experience is limited . . . But that's all right. . . . and God is unlimited. That is all right. That I admit. Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God. No, no, no. Just like you know . . . And nobody can. . . . you do not know me; you have no experience about me. No. But if I say: "I am like this," you will get experience. No. Then why no? If I live with you for some time . . . Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swāmījī might have one thousand dollar," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say: "No, I have got one million dollar," then you get the experience. No. Why no? I will get the experience of you when we are living together. That means you cannot talk with God. Of course not. That's it. But if anyone can talk? Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection. That's all right. But my experience is that you cannot . . . That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process. Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that. *Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. So direct experience, taking experience, "I am like this." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, Find out this verse. "I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Just see. This experience. *Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad*-gītā ? God. I mean, you need to have faith for that. Huh? What is that? *You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad*-gītā . Why faith? God is God. Why faith? Because, you know, I have been living in . . . No, no. You have no experience, you have said. You have no experience. No, I have not said. You said I did. No, you said that God is beyond your experience. You said. A real svāmī listen first if he wants to profit. First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience. That's right. That is my experience. That's all right. That's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience. Yes, I have. You say God is beyond your experience, you say. Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience. Because I found out that all my experience does not mean God. But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about? No, you don't . . . you see . . . Then it is a bit difficult. I have always told that the duty of the svāmī is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand. No, no, you said . . . first of all let us . . . why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God. No, I never said that. Then tell me your experience. That I want to know. That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta , and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience. That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you? That the image of God, as do you call it Kṛṣṇa or Rāma or Nṛsiṁha or any of the avatāra . . . and you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar, there was a svāmī who called himself an avatāra , and . . . That anyone can say. I can say third avatāra , he can say fourth avatāra . So if anyone can say . . . That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say: "I am avatāra ." Exactly. So . . . So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatāra ? No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatāra . We have got documents who is avatāra . Kṛṣṇa. No, Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . He is the origin. That it is stated here, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You know Sanskrit? Then what is the meaning of ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ ? "I am the source of all avatāra ." Yeah, but who has written that? Hmm? Who has written that? Śrīla Vyāsa. Anywhere he has written. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has written. Kṛṣṇa has spoken, Vyāsadeva has written, and it is accepted. But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it . . . (indistinct) No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress. Ah, you have to go beyond. As soon as you . . . just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother, and you believe that, "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect. That's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father. Yeah, but you know . . . If you say: "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know. The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or . . . (indistinct) No, no, I mean to say . . . *. . . that "I am an avatāra " or "I am Guru Mahārāj*-ji" or "I am . . ." so to say, "Meher Baba" or "Satya Sai Baba," so many bābās exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really bābā ? They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatāra , and they have many disciples . . . But we don't believe them. No, but they have many disciples. Many disciples, that is another thing. Millions. Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody . . . so many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity. And if I had said that . . . *It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : Kṛṣṇa does not say that, "Millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it. That's right. We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is paramparā . Just like in India—you have been in India—there are ācāryas : Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya. If the ācārya accept, then you accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Rāmānujācārya, high quality devotee; Madhvācārya, high quality devotee; *Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says—yes. So Śaṅkarācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Rāmānujācārya says: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvācārya says: "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā, nāsāv munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A muni , a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām : it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Big personalities, ācāryas —that is the process. Ācāryopāsanam . What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Ācāryopāsanam : we have to understand through the ācāryas . That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa in the Tenth Chapter. (aside) Find out, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. Read it. Hmm. What is that translation? *"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." So Kṛṣṇa says, and He is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, Asita, Nārada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says: "I am avatāra ," "I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the ācāryas , therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. As soon mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. So Arjuna says that paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12): "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is our point. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and . . . Kṛṣṇa comes, and He is accepted by all the great ācāryas . Then our business is perfect. (pause) So give them prasāda . Yes. I have prasādam in my office. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). *Have you seen our Bhagavad*-gītā ? He saw our all books. He is a scholar. This is a translation of Bhāgavata Purāṇa. *Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . In sixty volumes we will translate this. *We have Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Here it is. *And the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, all volumes. Would you like to see some of the pictures? Yes, yes. These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanātana Gosvāmī. The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees. (as prasādam is brought in) This is one of our other specialties. *Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). *This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . It's a description of the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. That's in two volumes. It's a tremendous work. (chuckles) Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world. This is *Nectar of Devotion* , by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the *Purāṇas* , and he supports devotional service. This is what you use for your devotional service? They're a model. We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and distributing of prasādam . And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupāda's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kīrtana in the temple. Yes. This is why I am coming. And no one is from India. (laughs) I could see, because in India you don't find that. Mr. Chenique wanted to ask you some questions. He's going to say in French, and I can translate. (French) He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching. Do you remember this gentleman? Hmm? He was the one who wrote that book. Herbert? Yes, that's right. Mr. Herbert? Yes. He's asking your opinion of him. Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist. (French) So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Māyāvādī, he is impersonalist. (French) But if he . . . he has already written one book. He has presented me, that Kṛṣṇa . . . The Yoga of Love. The Yoga of Love . So he has many times repeated the word "Kṛṣṇa." That will benefit him. (Jyotirmayī translates) (French) He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking . . . God is person, then? What did he say? Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal? Like he said that in Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson . . . *Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence. Just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all*-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person—sun-god, Vivasvān, he is person—he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato. By expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, this Brahman, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, tad brahma (Bs. 5.40). That Brahman. Brahman is . . . just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god. (Jyotirmayī translates) . . . and in Bhāgavata also it is stated: *The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. (Jyotirmayī translates) And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything—Brahman, Paramātmā, everything, Bhagavān." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Viṣṇu, myself, the world manifested, everything. (French) You take that sweet preparation. (chuckles) Yes. (French) He is asking if it is possible for young Christians . . . because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God—that in fact is not really a name—by the name Kṛṣṇa, because according to what you are explaining, God is Kṛṣṇa. So can they chant the name of Kṛṣṇa? *Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means . . . the Sanskrit word is īśvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "The Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, īśvara , God. Everyone is god; that is another thing. But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , the Supreme God, is Kṛṣṇa. (Jyotirmayī translates, explaining īśvara ) Supreme. We have got experience of īśvara . Just like I said, everyone is īśvara , everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also īśvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is īśvara . But these īśvaras , they are controlled by another īśvara . We are īśvara , but I am controlled by another īśvara . But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1), He is īśvara , but He is not controlled by anyone. That is parama , supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under . . . "being" and "Supreme Being." We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way you go, if you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, He is Supreme Being. This is the idea. (Jyotirmayī translates) *Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat , "There is no more controller beyond that, Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). And in Brahma-samhita, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form, body. Govinda ādi-puruṣam. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. "O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Kṛṣṇa is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. That is final God. Otherwise God . . . you will find—you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Kṛṣṇa, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattaḥ parataram. Parataram means better, or higher principle. No. (Jyotirmayī translates) Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam (BG 10.12). "You are person"— puruṣam means person— śāśvatam , "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, by Devala, by Nārada." Then it is final. (Jyotirmayī translates) *The Vedas say, therefore, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru . Vyāsadeva is the original guru . He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyāsadeva, ācāryas . So this is the instruction of the Vedas . Tad-vijñānārtham : in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet . And who is guru ? Śrotriyam , one who has heard from his guru , authorized person, śrotriyam, brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), and firmly convinced in the science of God. (Jyotirmayī translates) (Prabhupāda tells someone to open window) You can open more. Open more. Yes. You can open. How does one get the experience of personal existence of God? That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject. You did not hear? I was just asking. No. You are asking me or asking him? No, for his benefit. (Prabhupāda laughs) You were talking experience. Yes. So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person. No. I went through that experience, and I would like . . . I mean . . . may I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Kṛṣṇa, I said I would like much more to do so. (brief conversation in French) He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Kṛṣṇa consciousness what is missing in Christianity, to help them in their own development. Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity. (French) They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here? To tell you that you are not following. (laughter) But then there is no need to dress as you dress. Huh? Why do you dress in that way, which is an Indian way and not the European way? Then why Christian go there? They should not. Then we should not. Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong. No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and . . . (indistinct) . . .? Therefore anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say. I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian. No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe? True. Then you cannot say that, "Why you have come here?" You cannot say. No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians? I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you dress. Did I say that you do it? It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a . . . (indistinct) . . . priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them. I don't know if you have been to . . . No, no. Just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that, "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. It is like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that, "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there? It's not wrong; it's funny. Yes. Rather, these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your coun . . . way. That I am . . . (indistinct) . . . for it. (laughs) So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it? Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhotī and . . . But we are not concerned with the dress; we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding. That's all. Jyotirmayī, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock? No, he's not here yet . . . (indistinct) Have you got any French literature of conception . . . (indistinct) Yes, yes. French literature. He's asking for French literature. (French) (break) He translated the Tukārāma in French. Tukārāma. Tukārāma. Tukārāma is great Vaiṣṇava devotee of Maharashtra. His movement was saṅkīrtana movement. He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya? Yes. This was southern India? Southern India? Maharashtra. Maharashtra, yes. Southwest. For the north it is south and the south it is . . . (indistinct) ( japa ) Śrīla Prabhupāda, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible. Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God And also that . . . Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son? They talk about the Trilogy—the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is like, compared like the Father . . . Bhagavān, Paramātmā and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11), it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is that not explained? It's on His right hand. Huh? On his right side he's supposed to be seated. Yes. These are all personal ideas. And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Hmm? "Hallowed be Thy name." "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." That's nice. They're praising the name of the Lord. Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following. (Jyotirmayī briefly translates into French for guests) *Muhammadanism also Vaiṣṇavism, because Muhammad says: "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dāsya*-rasa, dāsya. Śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya, mādhurya . So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer—both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dāsyam sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. So we don't say that, "This is bad" and "This is good." No. Both of them are bhakti . To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes: Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrūra, the example is given. Akrūra got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? This is also prayer, our prayer, prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in Your service." That's it. So that is vandana . So vandana , and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," asking something for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, "Engage me in Your service," little advanced. Because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs. *So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ārto arthārthī jñānī ca, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārtaḥ (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ means distress, ārtaḥ , one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say: "Ah. Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say: "No, sir." "Now pray to us." Then "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have brought this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured. That is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit, that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you . . . eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), He is supplying food for everyone. If He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. *So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Kṛṣṇa or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gītā : imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha (BG 4.1), "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." The sun*-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being. He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). He is the origin of everything. And He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata . (aside) Find out this verse. Find out. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." *So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God. That is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs, because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ , there is dharma , some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā . If somebody says: "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him. It is very . . ." they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam , the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74). So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi . . . (aside) Find out this verse: *This tattva*-darśinaḥ means experience. What is that? *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Purport. *"The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād*-bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19)—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect." We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama . (aside) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries? (break) . . . record? Which record? From this afternoon, the recording. Oh, yes. Play now. Find out. It's upstairs, or it's right out here. That's all right. You have got? I think so. (French) He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion. No. We are recommending, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that. (Jyotirmayī translates) (French) He said that in Christianity God has no name. Hmm? God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ. So they chant . . . But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No? (Jyotirmayī translates) No. But you said that His name be glorified. They say: "Hallowed be Thy name." But the name is not said. Yes. They have not said it. Jesus said that, "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says: "but there is more to be told." So that's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Kṛṣṇa"? (Jyotirmayī translates) What is the objection? (French) *Caitanya Mahāprabhu says . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis . *Bahudhā : God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Kṛṣṇa is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śakti tatrārpitā . That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken? (Jyotirmayī translates) Yeah, but you can take "Rāma," you can take "Paraśurāma," you can take "Nṛsiṁha." Yes, yes, any name, any name. Kṛṣṇa has no special . . . No. Special there is. In this way: it is recommended in the śāstra , recommended in the śāstra, harer nāma. Harer means of God. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So this is the . . . we have . . . have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaiṣṇava. Does it matter . . . *Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra*-nāma, viṣṇu sahasra . But in another place it is said, other Upaniṣad , Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . this name is recommended. Just like Agni Purāṇa and Kalisantaraṇa Upaniṣad , in this Vedic literature, this . . . Yeah, but each Upaniṣad will recommend its own, I mean, specific deity, you know. Rāma, as you say, Hare Rāma. Or Śiva. Yes, Rāma is all right. Rāma we chant. Hare Rāma we chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma. Rāma also we chant. Yes. Or Śiva. I mean, you see, in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad . . . Also in the *Bhāgavatam*, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . . . (SB 12.3.51). I mean, whatever it is. You have got bhakti also in the Śaivites, all the advanced . . . The argument . . . if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name. Yes. The idea is that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to . . . Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Harer nāma means God's name. You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti , and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had the Jesus bhakti . And in your country, in America today, like you have got Hare Kṛṣṇa, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, is it also very present in many places. And the name does not matter, you know? There is no name who has got the . . . because then you find again what . . . No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing. Yeah, but I mean, this is another point. But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name? Yeah, but this is another discussion . . . (indistinct) . . . what we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it . . . That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says . . . just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son. Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name. Yes. (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son? No, it is not that question. The question is . . . Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Kṛṣṇa is a very common name . . . Yeah. . . . in the sense that many people may be called Kṛṣṇa. But the Supreme God is also called Kṛṣṇa. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme. Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name. That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching, "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing. Now if you think that Jesus Christ's name is also . . . you can chant, we have no objection we have no. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right. And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah. Yes. Name Kṛṣṇa, Allah, Jesus . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the . . . Allah, Allah. Allah is not name. That is written . . . it is not the name. It is just like the idea of God. Yeah. Allah means God, īśvara . Allah means also . . . (indistinct) But that is not the name. That is . . . just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person also. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So "President" is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name. Do you know the Sufi? Huh? Do you know the Sufis are Muslims . . . (indistinct) No. They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say . . . Allah means God. *Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah, the all*-knowing, is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that. Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant. That's all. Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the *Padma Purāṇa* , about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar. Yes. He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram , which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting " ha rāma ," which means "Where is Lord Rāma?" so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation. Although he did not mean Rāma, he condemned the boar as haram , "condemned," but the . . . Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharashtra of the hunter. Yes, may be the same story. Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then . . . it is a common story. Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. (end) Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris) Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the Law House of Paris. Law House means legislative assembly? No. It is part of the National Assembly? Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National . . . yes. *Just like we have in our country "Legislative Assembly." (Yogeśvara and Pṛthu*-putra translate Prabhupāda's comments into French throughout) (French) (translating) Yes, like that. But they're not necessarily lawyers. (French) We are also lawyer—not in the material sense—but we know what is the law of God. (French) He asks what are our activities in France. The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. (French) He asks what are we doing for that. What ways are we doing that? In which way, what ways, how? This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear, and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. (French) This gentleman ask if the disciples have to give up their religion. If, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee. Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand. Not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. (French) He asks if we have temple in French . . . in France, or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it? *Any way. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is . . . you show Bhagavad*-gītā . (devotees show books) And all other books also show him. He already know this. (French) He says unfortunately, he doesn't read English. Here is French, French language. (explains in French about number of books distributed) (French) We have practical political philosophy. (French) He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program? *Our . . . we have not only political program, but we have got political and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think . . . just like in your body there are four division: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first*-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated . . . (aside) Find out, śamo damas titikṣā . *(to Pṛthu*-putra) You want to translate? (translates) *So there must be four divisions of the society: the first*-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses . . . (aside) Hmm. Read. Yes. *This is definition of the first*-class man. (aside) Would you like to translate? (translates verse) *With all these qualification, one can become first*-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class . . . (correcting translator) "These people should be . . ." Prabhupāda said "these people." (corrects translation) *A class of men, first*-class men . . . (French) He says we say: "They should be," which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation. *No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is . . . Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first*-class men to lead the human society. Then next class . . . the head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated . . . Nitāi? Teja . . . what is that? It's, uh . . . Teja . No? Śauryam . . . *"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) *Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *"Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others." (Pṛthu-putra translates) *At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras , fourth*-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth class. Democracy means selected, I mean to . . . voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore there are so many anomalies. (French) He says this concept is against the . . . Traditional Western capitalism. The traditional Western capitalists. It is against capitalism, this idea? *No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first class, second class, third class, fourth class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth*-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first class, second class, third class . . . they're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the . . . as to keep the body fit we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French) *He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad*-gītā and . . . No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages. English? English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. (French) He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit. Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. (French) He asks how many disciples there is in France. Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple. Dedicated devotees, hundred. (French) *If one is a full*-time disciple . . . He's dedicated disciple. Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here? No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. (French) He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris, or they are a little bit everywhere . . . Explain there's traveling parties. *No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (Pṛthu*-putra translates) (French) He asks if we have a school in France. We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. (French) This school is for all ages, or just for children? *No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are . . . other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D. Beginning from A*-B-C-D up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. (French) He asks if you wrote all these books. "Did you write all these books?" That you can say. What can I . . .? Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. (French) He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?" Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport. *Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word*-meaning. Then I combine with reference to the modern society how they can be applicable to the modern life. (French) Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement? That I do not know, but many Frenchmen came to see me, and . . . Last year, at Hotel de Ville. Eh? Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel de Ville. No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publication that will come. Yes? Hmm. (someone enters with a plate of prasādam) This you can explain prasādam, prasādam . (explains about prasādam ) They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two, three things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparation out of that. From milk and grains and sugar . . . and? What else? Fruit, vegetables. Fruits. Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take. Maybe you can also explain that this . . . What is this preparation, explain. You explain. This is burfī . C'est bon . This is cake, cookie. No, not cookie. It is burfī , like . . . what is this made of? This is . . . This is sandeśa . *Oh, sandeśa . It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa , you give him one more. (M. Mesman laughs) So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparation, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk we make hundreds of preparation. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh*-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh—everything, whatever he likes—because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free, without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. *So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pound. One thousand pound daily in our one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparation from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our program, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh*-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. (French) He says there is a French . . . Saying. A French saying that says: "We don't have to kill the cow's milk." "The cow who gives milk." The cow who gives milk. One should not kill . . . that's a French saying. Ah! That one should not kill the cow that gives milk. That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow? It's a proverb. Proverb. Saying. Problem? Proverb. So put into action this proverb. So that is . . . you are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives . . .? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead . . . (break) . . . free of charges. (French) He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him. So kindly do this service. Kṛṣṇa will bless you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . *. . . giving to the vultures. Let the flesh*-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs) It would ruin the economy. Economy? What is that economy? Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the Communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good . . . You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there? Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day, forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this. *Yes. We recommend the meat*-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't . . . you eat it—after death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right, you eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures. Śakuni . *Yes. Śakuni , yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture*-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animal, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas , and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men they are, leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. Eh? All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first-, second-, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is . . . who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth class, less than fourth class. Fourth class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principle. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principle, just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena . . . (SB 6.1.13). The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama , controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly . . . so the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. *Human life means controlling. I give this example: just like in the . . . in your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animal, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something, "Get out." Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money, so I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principle is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left," "Keep to the right," for . . . this is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere, but he's not criminal, because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately he's criminal. Human society means to abide first*-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life, Freud. What is this Freud? Sigmund Freud. The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing. There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's granddaughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying: "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing. *He's ad . . . she's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth*-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing. They are leaders. Then, what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. "Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils." Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon, a big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound) " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) That's all. Is it not? It's true. *Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by . . . that is stated here, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals, that's all, small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now, na yat-karṇa . . . karṇa-pathet, upeta . . .? Upeto . Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal. Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ. Jātu . What is . . .? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport? *"The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the levels of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so*-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service . . ." At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street. There's a report that there's so many Ph.D.'s who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck driver and taxi driver. Where? In the United States. Just see. And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class, too, the professors. They're the educated class of people. *No, no. They are not brāhmin . Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmins . Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that, "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. "I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear." We are not asking money that, "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad*-gītā ." We never say so. So those . . . these so-called teachers, they first of all settle up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. A brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money, but I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business. Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly, or else they will be fired and get no salary. Eh? Today the priests, they are afraid to speak. Yes. Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their . . . *Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras . That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise . . . it is straight commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And because people are killing, they're . . . now they are giving man*-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception . . . at least, outside America nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that? Yes. So what is their standard? (referring to guest) Did he say anything before he left? *Yeah, he said that he was in the . . . he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow*-killing. So he said . . . *Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparation. Then, so far meat*-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that, "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it." Prabhupāda, in the Western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow, which is just like mother, if they're even willing to practically kill their parents? So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that, "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong? Not enough meat. Eh? Not enough meat fast enough. They're eating so much beef. No, fast, fast . . . fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cow is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take its milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society. If they don't kill it, there'll even be more cows. Eh? If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away . . . Yes. . . . there'll be even more cows. *More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that, "Don't . . ." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the . . . how long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. So where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go*-rakṣya . That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. "Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing," it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows . . . and you see, they're . . . our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows, because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that, "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning. He gave a proverb. Rather, he supported. Yes. *So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten year, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole humankind. But these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed, amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, " Dung! dung! " and kill you, be kill you. You know. You showed me? Yeah, French guillotine. *You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestant. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child, abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat*-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Where is Nitāi? They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get born, their mother kills them. Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story? The . . .? Vyādha . The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Which . . .? *This twenty*-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā. No, I don't think it's typed yet. What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there. Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter. Eh? Mṛgāri. Yes. If you . . . mām . . . this meaning, the flesh, in Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating, that this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. He'll be given the opportunity to kill you. And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that, "You are giving your life before Goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, Goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that, "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra , who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra . While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra . The priest will say in the ear that, "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra . Māṁ sa . Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it . . . she'll type it today or tomorrow. There these things are discussed. The story of Mṛgāri and . . .? *In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat*-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows. Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects . . . *How they'll understand, all dull*-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter) That's intelligent. When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very big actress—she's known all over the world—she's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try. This mayor, mayor . . .? This mayor? This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her. What about him? (laughter) He is more interested in . . . What did he say about himself? *It's when I asked him. I asked him, "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow*-killing?" So he said: "Oh . . . but there is this actress." Just give it . . . gave it to someone else to do. *No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). So we must take to agricultural work, to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee , you can start so many restaurants. That I have already . . . I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. You'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is our program. We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant. Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed? Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole Society. Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā . We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachorīs, siṅgāra, purī, halavā and so many other things, jurī , and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the . . . that every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So, so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more. Same. Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time . . . that's a in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction, charge is the same. I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās . (laughter) That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow. You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you. Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says: "I want to eat some fruits," "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata . If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop he'll bring one, what is called . . .? A bowl? Bowl, big bowl. Or it is . . . what do you call, where you keep water? Pot. *Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food, they'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin . . . rice was nothing. Rice . . . in our childhood, we have seen, two annas per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one anna . So by giving one- anna *-worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees' cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger . . . one saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama , because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama , and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here," just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama . He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya : "They are my men; *don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog, that's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair, one man has trained—I think most of you have seen—one tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that, "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Ṭhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that, "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. *These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally what is important they do not know. You said, Prabhupāda, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized. That's all. Everything is there. We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī . We have no such objection. *I can remember now, when I was in college there were so many groups trying to reform the young people—the YMCA, the church groups—so many different social*-working groups trying to make young people become more . . . not so restless, not so much wild. But no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy, because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said: "Oh, he's the one, there." Is there any other meeting? *Yes, but it will be later. It will be at six*-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming will be a psychiatrist. So we can take your leave until then. *Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari*-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances) Should I distribute this to the devotees? Yes. Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes. Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. (end) Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris) Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the Law House of Paris. Law House means legislative assembly? No. It is part of the National Assembly? Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National . . . yes. *Just like we have in our country "Legislative Assembly." (Yogeśvara and Pṛthu*-putra translate Prabhupāda's comments into French throughout) (French) (translating) Yes, like that. But they're not necessarily lawyers. (French) We are also lawyer—not in the material sense—but we know what is the law of God. (French) He asks what are our activities in France. The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. (French) He asks what are we doing for that. What ways are we doing that? In which way, what ways, how? This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear, and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. (French) This gentleman ask if the disciples have to give up their religion. If, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee. Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand. Not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. (French) He asks if we have temple in French . . . in France, or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it? *Any way. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is . . . you show Bhagavad*-gītā . (devotees show books) And all other books also show him. He already know this. (French) He says unfortunately, he doesn't read English. Here is French, French language. (explains in French about number of books distributed) (French) We have practical political philosophy. (French) He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program? *Our . . . we have not only political program, but we have got political and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think . . . just like in your body there are four division: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first*-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated . . . (aside) Find out, śamo damas titikṣā . *(to Pṛthu*-putra) You want to translate? (translates) *So there must be four divisions of the society: the first*-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses . . . (aside) Hmm. Read. Yes. *This is definition of the first*-class man. (aside) Would you like to translate? (translates verse) *With all these qualification, one can become first*-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class . . . (correcting translator) "These people should be . . ." Prabhupāda said "these people." (corrects translation) *A class of men, first*-class men . . . (French) He says we say: "They should be," which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation. *No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is . . . Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first*-class men to lead the human society. Then next class . . . the head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated . . . Nitāi? Teja . . . what is that? It's, uh . . . Teja . No? Śauryam . . . *"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) *Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). *"Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others." (Pṛthu-putra translates) *At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras , fourth*-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth class. Democracy means selected, I mean to . . . voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore there are so many anomalies. (French) He says this concept is against the . . . Traditional Western capitalism. The traditional Western capitalists. It is against capitalism, this idea? *No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first class, second class, third class, fourth class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth*-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first class, second class, third class . . . they're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the . . . as to keep the body fit we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French) *He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad*-gītā and . . . No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages. English? English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. (French) He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit. Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. (French) He asks how many disciples there is in France. Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple. Dedicated devotees, hundred. (French) *If one is a full*-time disciple . . . He's dedicated disciple. Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here? No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. (French) He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris, or they are a little bit everywhere . . . Explain there's traveling parties. *No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (Pṛthu*-putra translates) (French) He asks if we have a school in France. We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. (French) This school is for all ages, or just for children? *No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are . . . other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D. Beginning from A*-B-C-D up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. (French) He asks if you wrote all these books. "Did you write all these books?" That you can say. What can I . . .? Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. (French) He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?" Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport. *Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word*-meaning. Then I combine with reference to the modern society how they can be applicable to the modern life. (French) Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement? That I do not know, but many Frenchmen came to see me, and . . . Last year, at Hotel de Ville. Eh? Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel de Ville. No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publication that will come. Yes? Hmm. (someone enters with a plate of prasādam) This you can explain prasādam, prasādam . (explains about prasādam ) They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two, three things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparation out of that. From milk and grains and sugar . . . and? What else? Fruit, vegetables. Fruits. Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take. Maybe you can also explain that this . . . What is this preparation, explain. You explain. This is burfī . C'est bon . This is cake, cookie. No, not cookie. It is burfī , like . . . what is this made of? This is . . . This is sandeśa . *Oh, sandeśa . It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa , you give him one more. (M. Mesman laughs) So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparation, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk we make hundreds of preparation. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh*-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh—everything, whatever he likes—because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free, without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. *So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pound. One thousand pound daily in our one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparation from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our program, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh*-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. (French) He says there is a French . . . Saying. A French saying that says: "We don't have to kill the cow's milk." "The cow who gives milk." The cow who gives milk. One should not kill . . . that's a French saying. Ah! That one should not kill the cow that gives milk. That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow? It's a proverb. Proverb. Saying. Problem? Proverb. So put into action this proverb. So that is . . . you are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives . . .? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead . . . (break) . . . free of charges. (French) He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him. So kindly do this service. Kṛṣṇa will bless you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . *. . . giving to the vultures. Let the flesh*-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs) It would ruin the economy. Economy? What is that economy? Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the Communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good . . . You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there? Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day, forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this. *Yes. We recommend the meat*-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't . . . you eat it—after death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right, you eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures. Śakuni . *Yes. Śakuni , yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture*-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animal, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas , and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men they are, leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. Eh? All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first-, second-, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is . . . who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth class, less than fourth class. Fourth class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principle. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principle, just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena . . . (SB 6.1.13). The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama , controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly . . . so the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. *Human life means controlling. I give this example: just like in the . . . in your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animal, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something, "Get out." Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money, so I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principle is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left," "Keep to the right," for . . . this is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere, but he's not criminal, because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately he's criminal. Human society means to abide first*-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life, Freud. What is this Freud? Sigmund Freud. The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing. There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's granddaughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying: "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing. *He's ad . . . she's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth*-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing. They are leaders. Then, what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. "Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils." Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon, a big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound) " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) That's all. Is it not? It's true. *Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by . . . that is stated here, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals, that's all, small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now, na yat-karṇa . . . karṇa-pathet, upeta . . .? Upeto . Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal. Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ. Jātu . What is . . .? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport? *"The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the levels of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so*-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service . . ." At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street. There's a report that there's so many Ph.D.'s who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck driver and taxi driver. Where? In the United States. Just see. And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class, too, the professors. They're the educated class of people. *No, no. They are not brāhmin . Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmins . Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that, "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. "I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear." We are not asking money that, "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad*-gītā ." We never say so. So those . . . these so-called teachers, they first of all settle up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. A brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money, but I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business. Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly, or else they will be fired and get no salary. Eh? Today the priests, they are afraid to speak. Yes. Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their . . . *Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras . That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise . . . it is straight commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And because people are killing, they're . . . now they are giving man*-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception . . . at least, outside America nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that? Yes. So what is their standard? (referring to guest) Did he say anything before he left? *Yeah, he said that he was in the . . . he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow*-killing. So he said . . . *Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparation. Then, so far meat*-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that, "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it." Prabhupāda, in the Western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow, which is just like mother, if they're even willing to practically kill their parents? So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that, "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong? Not enough meat. Eh? Not enough meat fast enough. They're eating so much beef. No, fast, fast . . . fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cow is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take its milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society. If they don't kill it, there'll even be more cows. Eh? If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away . . . Yes. . . . there'll be even more cows. *More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that, "Don't . . ." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the . . . how long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. So where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go*-rakṣya . That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. "Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing," it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows . . . and you see, they're . . . our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows, because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that, "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning. He gave a proverb. Rather, he supported. Yes. *So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten year, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole humankind. But these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed, amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, " Dung! dung! " and kill you, be kill you. You know. You showed me? Yeah, French guillotine. *You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestant. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child, abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat*-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Where is Nitāi? They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get born, their mother kills them. Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story? The . . .? Vyādha . The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Which . . .? *This twenty*-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā. No, I don't think it's typed yet. What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there. Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter. Eh? Mṛgāri. Yes. If you . . . mām . . . this meaning, the flesh, in Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating, that this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. He'll be given the opportunity to kill you. And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that, "You are giving your life before Goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, Goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that, "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra , who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra . While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra . The priest will say in the ear that, "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra . Māṁ sa . Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it . . . she'll type it today or tomorrow. There these things are discussed. The story of Mṛgāri and . . .? *In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat*-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows. Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects . . . *How they'll understand, all dull*-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter) That's intelligent. When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very big actress—she's known all over the world—she's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try. This mayor, mayor . . .? This mayor? This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her. What about him? (laughter) He is more interested in . . . What did he say about himself? *It's when I asked him. I asked him, "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow*-killing?" So he said: "Oh . . . but there is this actress." Just give it . . . gave it to someone else to do. *No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). So we must take to agricultural work, to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee , you can start so many restaurants. That I have already . . . I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. You'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is our program. We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant. Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed? Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole Society. Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā . We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachorīs, siṅgāra, purī, halavā and so many other things, jurī , and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the . . . that every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So, so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more. Same. Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time . . . that's a in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction, charge is the same. I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās . (laughter) That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow. You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you. Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says: "I want to eat some fruits," "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata . If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop he'll bring one, what is called . . .? A bowl? Bowl, big bowl. Or it is . . . what do you call, where you keep water? Pot. *Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food, they'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin . . . rice was nothing. Rice . . . in our childhood, we have seen, two annas per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one anna . So by giving one- anna *-worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees' cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger . . . one saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama , because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama , and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here," just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama . He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya : "They are my men; *don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog, that's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair, one man has trained—I think most of you have seen—one tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that, "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Ṭhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that, "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. *These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally what is important they do not know. You said, Prabhupāda, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized. That's all. Everything is there. We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī . We have no such objection. *I can remember now, when I was in college there were so many groups trying to reform the young people—the YMCA, the church groups—so many different social*-working groups trying to make young people become more . . . not so restless, not so much wild. But no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy, because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said: "Oh, he's the one, there." Is there any other meeting? *Yes, but it will be later. It will be at six*-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming will be a psychiatrist. So we can take your leave until then. *Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari*-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances) Should I distribute this to the devotees? Yes. Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes. Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. (end) Conversation A -- June 12, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature) . . . in France amongst the Communist students, the Communist Indian students. And I said that he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things on the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he became very interested. *Hmm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Where is Karandhara? He's coming. *The Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa that, "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram . . . (aside) Read out this. This is the process of peacefulness: when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas , all worlds, and Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (aside) Get the light. (French) He said that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both side. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism. In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is, whether it be imperialist, whether it be Communist . . . religious sentiment is found . . . What is religious sentiment? (French with devotees) He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and of course there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling now, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now . . . and then he said that . . . Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? (French with devotees) (to devotees) Do you understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation. *Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad*-gītā . The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā . Who? The Communists and the imperialists. And he said some names . . . (French) Rajagopalacharya. *This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism, you know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. But you find people referring Bhagavad*-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there. Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. (French) He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals. Who is that man? (French) He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges. So? The Communist does not? (French) He said that in Marxism there is no religious references. But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French) He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the Communists that killed them? Eh? (French) He's saying, is it the Communists who killed them? Communists killed others? Seven students in Assam. (French) So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas . But still they have been arresting forty thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges. Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French) What he's trying to say is that some people are using . . . (French) He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now. But you cannot think . . . you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. (French with devotees) (aside) Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become . . .? They're calling Africa. Eh? They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure. So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion. In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it. That is not religion. That is sentiment. (French) (to Prabhupāda while others speak in French) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja. So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good. Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? (French) He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion. No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. (French) *So he says that, "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, the day*-to-day life? What good brings religion in the life?" He said: "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion," he says: "the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words." He says: "The important thing is how it is lived, how people live their . . ." Yes. The practice. It is practiced . . . those who are real religionists, they practice it. (French) So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion not only on the individual platform, but on the social platform. No, we are teaching. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. (French) He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion. No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. (French) So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles. What is his experience of religion? (French) So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best . . . No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. (French) *So he said that his idea is that advaita*-Vedānta philosophy is the best in the world. What is that advaita ? What is that advaita ? (French) *He said that advaita*-Vedānta . . . *What is that advaita*-veda philosophy? Let him define. (French) Advaita . A means "without." Dvaita . . . "Without"? *"Not." Dvaita means dual. So non*-dual. *Non*-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita . So what is that one? (French) *So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non*-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things—there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you. Creator. *. . . that there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non*-dual philosophy, is very nice on the political or social level as well, since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything. This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita . So monism, what is the center of monism? (French) So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the . . . But you cannot . . . if you have no objective, then you cannot live in oneness. (French with devotees) (aside) I'm feeling hot. (indistinct reply by devotee) He says . . . Yes? . . . that before . . . he says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for . . . But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? (French) So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti : "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not. That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti : "It is not" defining. (French) You better translate that one. He says that the answer of that is very often come, it doesn't have to come, with a name of God, because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people. In other words, he's saying: "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying: "I'd rather not say that, because that's too mystical." Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti . So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth, then we discuss the other, subordinate things. (French with devotees) All those other things like political and otherwise are all just details. The first thing, you should have to find the center. (aside) You translate that. Neti neti means . . . "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. (French with devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, guest makes a long speech) (to devotees) The first thing is, he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. (French) So he said . . . what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form, because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer. Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk. Well, he says still we can give it some form for discussion purposes. Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. (French translation) He suggests, "Well, in that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is . . ." *But he raised that Absolute Truth is non*-dual. Yes. *Non*-dual. Tat tvam asi. He's saying: "We are that." *So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non*-dualism, neti neti ? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says: "For the time being, let us become silent"? Yes, he's saying . . . oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying: "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet." Yeah, that's the point. He's just saying: "Let's get rid of . . ." (to guest) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet, because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet. Then he said that . . . (French) Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride. The question is, "What is he aiming at?" Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. (French) *His main point when he quotes Bhagavad*-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just, you know, sentiment, philosophy. It is active. Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements. Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. (French) So he says:"Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion, which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions." Yes. "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point." Yes. That we are preaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā . It is not like that. (French) So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you for the work that you are doing, because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people, or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug." Yes. So I think, if I understood correctly . . . I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right. He wasn't appreciating exactly. Did he appreciate? First of all . . . He wasn't appreciating what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian . . . with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it . . .? Francend . (name of paper) Franscend . Franscend . He says there is many svāmī and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the Western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be . . . who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or just like some kind of a dream, just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point. *But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty*-four hours' engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. (French) He thinks that the people in Western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect. Very good. (French) And he says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions. Yes. In . . . the idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal, original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. (French) He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the Western religion. What is that? (French) He says the Christian or the Western religion are marked by dogmatists, and they are very . . . Yes. And they have imperialist conception. Hmm? *He says that Western religions are narrow*-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have, in India for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion. No. First . . . therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French) *He says we can't say . . . his point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti*-yoga , by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga , by action. There's jñāna-yoga , by knowledge. He says if in Western countries we propagate bhakti-yoga , we take the risk of using it, bhakti-yoga , like a drug or something like this, as if you are dreaming or something like that. *(laughing) Bhakti*-yoga by drugs? He says, he made the statement . . . That is . . . . . . according to the state of the French people in right now, in this time. But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) *What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti*-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance. *Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practice, they're against bhakti*-yoga . (French) *He said that bhakti*-yoga's an escape. Hmm? *Bhakti*-yoga brings to escaping one's responsibility. *Then he does not know what is bhakti*-yoga . He does not know. (French) *Arjuna did not escape. He was trying to escape, but by bhakti*-yoga he was captured. (French) *He says the Bhagavad*-gītā is a . . . He says it's a work which is very, very practical and rational. *Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti*-yoga . (French) *He said that Anu*-gītā is also a very practical work. *No Anu*-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti , Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. (French) He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose. No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? (French) He says he choose Ramakrishna. He choose all the seigneur . . . But they, all of them . . . He reject Aurobindo . . . I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? (French) Now, this Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? (French) He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way, and it excludes . . . No, no. He . . . . . . Siddheshvarananda. That's another teacher. *No, you cannot . . . if you are referring to Kṛṣṇa, if you are referring to Bhagavad*-gītā , so why don't you take it originally? (break) (French) He says, this is the answer, he says, from Ramakrishna. When you have a thorn in your foot, you take another thorn and you pluck it out, and afterwards, you throw them both away. *So Bhagavad*-gītā does not say. Bhagavad-gītā says that, "You surrender unto Me, and sustain this." Therefore he has misled. He did not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā , and he misled so many fools. That is his business. One thing is, Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja . And Ramakrishna says that, "You can accept any path." So this is against Bhagavad-gītā . (French) He says of the two choices, he likes Ramakrishna's better. That is his choice. But if he says that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," why he should be different? (French) He says to accommodate, to accommodate them. *No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and Ramakrishna says that, "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said . . . his name was Gadadhar Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. (French) He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion: how to live. He says the interpretation is not so . . . But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? (French) I think one . . . if I've understood, he's insisting on one point, that is that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the *Gītā* in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public. Who is that public? Amongst you, who accept Ramakrishna? He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time . . . *Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad*-gītā , but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization? He said . . . and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was . . . Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. (French) It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people. No. What mass? That is false. Ramakrishna's popular in the West because of his skillful propaganda . . . (French) He says that, "Well, in a sense, we have to accept that Ramakrishna was expressing the sentiments of the public because he lived amongst the public." No, that is his false understanding. Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler . . . Hitler lived amongst the public too, and he was a . . . No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousand, twenty thousand people, every day come to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belur Math, or somewhere else—nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousand, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the Western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridwar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea that it is for the mass, it is false. (French) He says he was talking about the time of Ramakrishna, when Ramakrishna was there . . . That, everything, bubble comes and goes away. It is no meaning. (French) He says numbers aren't really very important. It's like a . . . It's not a proof. It's not a proof, just numbers. Eh? He says but that's not a proof, just to say that there are greater numbers. He was trying to submit it as a proof just a minute ago. Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says: "Mass of people," and again he says: "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. (French) He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy. Now . . . now we have to . . . he was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved: they're not, the mass of people, not at all interested . . . that I have proved. That is my answer. (French) He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna. What is the mass of people mean? He says Ramakrishna, whether he knew it or not, he was expressing a sentiment of the people at that time. At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's . . . Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. (French) He says it's not the person important in this example; it's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there. Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted. No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time. So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. And that will not appeal. (French) In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument, because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume, a synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform . . . the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people. The people's representative is different from God's representative. (French) He says that, "Well, that's a belief. You have to believe that." He said that's only a belief. No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. (French) He says that that's dangerous, because then we run the risk of having people who say: "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God," and they're actually only interested personal, private interest. No, if . . . if people . . . not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that, "You all not giving God's opinion"? God said, Kṛṣṇa said that, "You surrender to Me," and if I say that, "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? (French) In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence, we must stick to the words of God without interpreting. (aside) Is that what he said? That's it. That's it. That we want. (to translators) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. (French) He says there is some deviation, some interpretation by some philosophers or sages. They deviate . . . One who deviates is not a sage; he's a thief. Yeah, it's what he says. I'm just translating his words. No, if he deviates from the words of God, then he is not a sage. (French) He says, well, the thing that he appreciates in Hinduism is its openness and its tolerance to so many different paths and so many different interpretations. That is another thing. But to abide by the orders of God, that is another thing. (French) He says then we've made the full turn again. We've come back to the beginning. (French) He said so we've actually come back to the beginning of our discussion again, which is that real religion has to be judged by the actions of men. Yes, that you can judge. Here is the action of the men. Now the young men and boys and girls are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And who is taking to Ramakrishna? (French with devotees) So he is a man of action, and here we have a movement of action which is solving all problems of the world. What's his complaint? It's not a dream. It's actually by following this movement, we're solving all problems. So what does he have to say? If he follows exactly what Kṛṣṇa says, then all the problems will be solved. So why doesn't he follow what Kṛṣṇa says? (French) He received information. Eh? He received information that to follow, with some interest, that to follow what Kṛṣṇa says and like that, we can solve problems. (French) And personally, he respects you. *Thank you. That's all right. But thing is that we must know that he has spoken about Ramakrishna and Aurobindo. They also center their propaganda on Kṛṣṇa. Just like I already told, Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." That means he takes to Kṛṣṇa. Aurobindo, he has written Life Divine. That is his explanation of Bhagavad*-gītā . He takes to Kṛṣṇa. This Maharishi, he has also presented Bhagavad-gītā; he's taken to Kṛṣṇa. So their importance is by taking to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, they are valueless, nobody. (French) He says that for him, that's not really a problem. He says rather than referring to the person Kṛṣṇa, he just goes directly to the teaching of the *Gītā* , and he profits from that. *No, teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? (French) So his point is that, well, ultimately the . . . now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that. Hmm. Then? What did he . . .? Why he come here? What for? We invited him. (laughter) (French) *Well, at the end of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Yes. *He says: "Give up all this religiousness and surrender to Me." The whole purport of the Bhagavad*-gītā . He's telling Arjuna to fight, but ultimately, in the end, He's saying: "Just forget about all these ideas you have in your head, and surrender to Me." Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Yes. "Me" means Kṛṣṇa. Right. So then Kṛṣṇa is everything. Mām ekam. *Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." So anyone who has studied Bhagavad*-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. (French) He says he accepts that as being . . . he says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions. Hmm? He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions. But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas . This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. *India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācārya . Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam . So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas . Anyone you'll find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya . So all the ācārya accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (French) He says all the Christian and all the priest, that they tell to him from . . . that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says no. Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. (French) Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it. The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that . . . Eh? What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they . . . it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify. And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem. Now . . . now, what is his problem? That he did never disclose. Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live. So he has got his opinion; I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be solved. Does he agree? (French) He says: "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence . . ." Then why shall I agree to his point? (French) So . . . So he says: "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion, just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says: "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work." No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. (French) But what practical thing is he doing? *What he says, what he says . . . he's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad*-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel. So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? (French) *He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad*-gītā , and people are very, very interested. *He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad*-gītā . *No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad*-gītā . (French) What is that? *He says that when he explains Bhagavad*-gītā or presents Bhagavad-gītā to people, he doesn't tell them that, "This is the word of God, and you just have to accept it." *That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad*-gītā . That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā . (French) *So he says that he thinks the same about us, that we are also not understanding perfectly Bhagavad*-gītā . Then let him understand from us. No, he says he thinks that we don't understand. (simultaneously with Yogeśvara) He thinks that we don't understand. Eh? He says that he thinks that we have not perfectly understood. So let us discuss who understands—you or me. So who will decide? You are understanding or I am understanding—who'll decide? (French) Who will decide it? *So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want? Religious problem—any problem. No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. (French with devotees) Now, this question . . . listen. Our Bhagavān dāsa says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better? And anyone who joins us loses all his problems. (French) He says then that's very serious, because if you have no problems, that means you are trying to escape from the world, because there world is full of problems. We are in the Paris City. How we have escaped from the world? (laughter) We have got branches in London, in Paris, in New York and big, big cities, and all these boys are coming from big, big cities. How they have escaped? It is not justice. If you says that, "They have escaped," that is wrong statement. We are not escaping anything. (French) What kind of proof are you looking for? Let's talk about proof. What kind of proof are you looking for? (French) Now, another point is, he's accusing us that we're escaping. Why he's escaping Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (French) He says he thinks that what we're doing is simply a kind of medicine that doesn't actually resolve the problems that people are facing. If it is not result, then how this boy says: "We have no problem"? The patient says that he has cured, and you say that it is not curing? (French) (to translators) So repeat to Prabhupāda what he said. (French) We have proof that anyone from any part of the world who takes to this process loses his problems. It's not a matter of Western or Eastern. (French) With your permission, he would like to take leave. Why? He should stay with us. Let us conclude. Why you are flying away? We have started one discussion. Let it be finished. Why you are going away? (French) That means he is escaping. He says because he works in the evenings. He's a theater critic. That's all right. Some way or other, he's escaping. (French) A man . . . With pleasure, he would like to come back to finish the discussion. Yes. (French) And with friendship. Yes. Oh, yes. That's it. Don't escape. (French) When we have begun the discussion, let us finish. Don't escape. (French) Thank you. Haribol. Jaya. Thank you. Make sure he has some more prasādam before he goes. I'll bring it. (guest leaves) (aside) Hmm, open. (to devotees outside room) . . . Prabhupāda is very tired. He's just finished a long evening. So when there is discussion, you should all be present. It is very interesting. Those who are our men, GBC men, they must know. They come in like Keśī demon, and they go out with prasādam in their mouth. (laughter) They are escaping. We are not escaping. We want to capture everyone. (laughter) He has no clear idea what is the aim of life. He likes to see people engaged in work that is humanitarian, that will resolve the problems of the world. That everyone says. All rascals says like that, "humanitarian." He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or Communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and Communist. This is their humanitarian work. *He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad*-gītā in a certain way, like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body. Yes. And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is . . . Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa. They're trying to interpret that Kṛṣṇa is just our own intelligence or . . . The point is even when they see the practical proof, they don't accept it. They're so stubborn. You be strong. Don't be . . . they cannot conquer us. But you be more strong. (end) Conversation A -- June 12, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature) . . . in France amongst the Communist students, the Communist Indian students. And I said that he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things on the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he became very interested. *Hmm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Where is Karandhara? He's coming. *The Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa that, "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram . . . (aside) Read out this. This is the process of peacefulness: when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas , all worlds, and Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (aside) Get the light. (French) He said that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both side. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism. In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is, whether it be imperialist, whether it be Communist . . . religious sentiment is found . . . What is religious sentiment? (French with devotees) He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and of course there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling now, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now . . . and then he said that . . . Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? (French with devotees) (to devotees) Do you understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation. *Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad*-gītā . The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā . Who? The Communists and the imperialists. And he said some names . . . (French) Rajagopalacharya. *This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism, you know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. But you find people referring Bhagavad*-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there. Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. (French) He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals. Who is that man? (French) He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges. So? The Communist does not? (French) He said that in Marxism there is no religious references. But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French) He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the Communists that killed them? Eh? (French) He's saying, is it the Communists who killed them? Communists killed others? Seven students in Assam. (French) So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas . But still they have been arresting forty thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges. Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French) What he's trying to say is that some people are using . . . (French) He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now. But you cannot think . . . you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. (French with devotees) (aside) Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become . . .? They're calling Africa. Eh? They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure. So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion. In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it. That is not religion. That is sentiment. (French) (to Prabhupāda while others speak in French) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja. So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good. Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? (French) He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion. No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. (French) *So he says that, "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, the day*-to-day life? What good brings religion in the life?" He said: "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion," he says: "the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words." He says: "The important thing is how it is lived, how people live their . . ." Yes. The practice. It is practiced . . . those who are real religionists, they practice it. (French) So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion not only on the individual platform, but on the social platform. No, we are teaching. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. (French) He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion. No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. (French) So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles. What is his experience of religion? (French) So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best . . . No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. (French) *So he said that his idea is that advaita*-Vedānta philosophy is the best in the world. What is that advaita ? What is that advaita ? (French) *He said that advaita*-Vedānta . . . *What is that advaita*-veda philosophy? Let him define. (French) Advaita . A means "without." Dvaita . . . "Without"? *"Not." Dvaita means dual. So non*-dual. *Non*-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita . So what is that one? (French) *So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non*-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things—there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you. Creator. *. . . that there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non*-dual philosophy, is very nice on the political or social level as well, since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything. This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita . So monism, what is the center of monism? (French) So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the . . . But you cannot . . . if you have no objective, then you cannot live in oneness. (French with devotees) (aside) I'm feeling hot. (indistinct reply by devotee) He says . . . Yes? . . . that before . . . he says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for . . . But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? (French) So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti : "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not. That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti : "It is not" defining. (French) You better translate that one. He says that the answer of that is very often come, it doesn't have to come, with a name of God, because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people. In other words, he's saying: "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying: "I'd rather not say that, because that's too mystical." Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti . So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth, then we discuss the other, subordinate things. (French with devotees) All those other things like political and otherwise are all just details. The first thing, you should have to find the center. (aside) You translate that. Neti neti means . . . "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. (French with devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, guest makes a long speech) (to devotees) The first thing is, he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. (French) So he said . . . what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form, because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer. Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk. Well, he says still we can give it some form for discussion purposes. Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. (French translation) He suggests, "Well, in that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is . . ." *But he raised that Absolute Truth is non*-dual. Yes. *Non*-dual. Tat tvam asi. He's saying: "We are that." *So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non*-dualism, neti neti ? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says: "For the time being, let us become silent"? Yes, he's saying . . . oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying: "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet." Yeah, that's the point. He's just saying: "Let's get rid of . . ." (to guest) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet, because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet. Then he said that . . . (French) Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride. The question is, "What is he aiming at?" Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. (French) *His main point when he quotes Bhagavad*-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just, you know, sentiment, philosophy. It is active. Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements. Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. (French) So he says:"Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion, which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions." Yes. "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point." Yes. That we are preaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā . It is not like that. (French) So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you for the work that you are doing, because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people, or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug." Yes. So I think, if I understood correctly . . . I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right. He wasn't appreciating exactly. Did he appreciate? First of all . . . He wasn't appreciating what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian . . . with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it . . .? Francend . (name of paper) Franscend . Franscend . He says there is many svāmī and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the Western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be . . . who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or just like some kind of a dream, just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point. *But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty*-four hours' engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. (French) He thinks that the people in Western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect. Very good. (French) And he says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions. Yes. In . . . the idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal, original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. (French) He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the Western religion. What is that? (French) He says the Christian or the Western religion are marked by dogmatists, and they are very . . . Yes. And they have imperialist conception. Hmm? *He says that Western religions are narrow*-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have, in India for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion. No. First . . . therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French) *He says we can't say . . . his point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti*-yoga , by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga , by action. There's jñāna-yoga , by knowledge. He says if in Western countries we propagate bhakti-yoga , we take the risk of using it, bhakti-yoga , like a drug or something like this, as if you are dreaming or something like that. *(laughing) Bhakti*-yoga by drugs? He says, he made the statement . . . That is . . . . . . according to the state of the French people in right now, in this time. But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) *What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti*-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance. *Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practice, they're against bhakti*-yoga . (French) *He said that bhakti*-yoga's an escape. Hmm? *Bhakti*-yoga brings to escaping one's responsibility. *Then he does not know what is bhakti*-yoga . He does not know. (French) *Arjuna did not escape. He was trying to escape, but by bhakti*-yoga he was captured. (French) *He says the Bhagavad*-gītā is a . . . He says it's a work which is very, very practical and rational. *Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti*-yoga . (French) *He said that Anu*-gītā is also a very practical work. *No Anu*-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti , Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. (French) He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose. No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? (French) He says he choose Ramakrishna. He choose all the seigneur . . . But they, all of them . . . He reject Aurobindo . . . I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? (French) Now, this Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? (French) He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way, and it excludes . . . No, no. He . . . . . . Siddheshvarananda. That's another teacher. *No, you cannot . . . if you are referring to Kṛṣṇa, if you are referring to Bhagavad*-gītā , so why don't you take it originally? (break) (French) He says, this is the answer, he says, from Ramakrishna. When you have a thorn in your foot, you take another thorn and you pluck it out, and afterwards, you throw them both away. *So Bhagavad*-gītā does not say. Bhagavad-gītā says that, "You surrender unto Me, and sustain this." Therefore he has misled. He did not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā , and he misled so many fools. That is his business. One thing is, Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja . And Ramakrishna says that, "You can accept any path." So this is against Bhagavad-gītā . (French) He says of the two choices, he likes Ramakrishna's better. That is his choice. But if he says that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," why he should be different? (French) He says to accommodate, to accommodate them. *No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and Ramakrishna says that, "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said . . . his name was Gadadhar Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. (French) He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion: how to live. He says the interpretation is not so . . . But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? (French) I think one . . . if I've understood, he's insisting on one point, that is that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the *Gītā* in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public. Who is that public? Amongst you, who accept Ramakrishna? He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time . . . *Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad*-gītā , but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization? He said . . . and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was . . . Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. (French) It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people. No. What mass? That is false. Ramakrishna's popular in the West because of his skillful propaganda . . . (French) He says that, "Well, in a sense, we have to accept that Ramakrishna was expressing the sentiments of the public because he lived amongst the public." No, that is his false understanding. Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler . . . Hitler lived amongst the public too, and he was a . . . No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousand, twenty thousand people, every day come to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belur Math, or somewhere else—nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousand, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the Western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridwar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea that it is for the mass, it is false. (French) He says he was talking about the time of Ramakrishna, when Ramakrishna was there . . . That, everything, bubble comes and goes away. It is no meaning. (French) He says numbers aren't really very important. It's like a . . . It's not a proof. It's not a proof, just numbers. Eh? He says but that's not a proof, just to say that there are greater numbers. He was trying to submit it as a proof just a minute ago. Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says: "Mass of people," and again he says: "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. (French) He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy. Now . . . now we have to . . . he was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved: they're not, the mass of people, not at all interested . . . that I have proved. That is my answer. (French) He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna. What is the mass of people mean? He says Ramakrishna, whether he knew it or not, he was expressing a sentiment of the people at that time. At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's . . . Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. (French) He says it's not the person important in this example; it's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there. Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted. No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time. So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. And that will not appeal. (French) In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument, because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume, a synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform . . . the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people. The people's representative is different from God's representative. (French) He says that, "Well, that's a belief. You have to believe that." He said that's only a belief. No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. (French) He says that that's dangerous, because then we run the risk of having people who say: "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God," and they're actually only interested personal, private interest. No, if . . . if people . . . not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that, "You all not giving God's opinion"? God said, Kṛṣṇa said that, "You surrender to Me," and if I say that, "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? (French) In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence, we must stick to the words of God without interpreting. (aside) Is that what he said? That's it. That's it. That we want. (to translators) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. (French) He says there is some deviation, some interpretation by some philosophers or sages. They deviate . . . One who deviates is not a sage; he's a thief. Yeah, it's what he says. I'm just translating his words. No, if he deviates from the words of God, then he is not a sage. (French) He says, well, the thing that he appreciates in Hinduism is its openness and its tolerance to so many different paths and so many different interpretations. That is another thing. But to abide by the orders of God, that is another thing. (French) He says then we've made the full turn again. We've come back to the beginning. (French) He said so we've actually come back to the beginning of our discussion again, which is that real religion has to be judged by the actions of men. Yes, that you can judge. Here is the action of the men. Now the young men and boys and girls are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And who is taking to Ramakrishna? (French with devotees) So he is a man of action, and here we have a movement of action which is solving all problems of the world. What's his complaint? It's not a dream. It's actually by following this movement, we're solving all problems. So what does he have to say? If he follows exactly what Kṛṣṇa says, then all the problems will be solved. So why doesn't he follow what Kṛṣṇa says? (French) He received information. Eh? He received information that to follow, with some interest, that to follow what Kṛṣṇa says and like that, we can solve problems. (French) And personally, he respects you. *Thank you. That's all right. But thing is that we must know that he has spoken about Ramakrishna and Aurobindo. They also center their propaganda on Kṛṣṇa. Just like I already told, Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." That means he takes to Kṛṣṇa. Aurobindo, he has written Life Divine. That is his explanation of Bhagavad*-gītā . He takes to Kṛṣṇa. This Maharishi, he has also presented Bhagavad-gītā; he's taken to Kṛṣṇa. So their importance is by taking to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, they are valueless, nobody. (French) He says that for him, that's not really a problem. He says rather than referring to the person Kṛṣṇa, he just goes directly to the teaching of the *Gītā* , and he profits from that. *No, teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? (French) So his point is that, well, ultimately the . . . now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that. Hmm. Then? What did he . . .? Why he come here? What for? We invited him. (laughter) (French) *Well, at the end of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Yes. *He says: "Give up all this religiousness and surrender to Me." The whole purport of the Bhagavad*-gītā . He's telling Arjuna to fight, but ultimately, in the end, He's saying: "Just forget about all these ideas you have in your head, and surrender to Me." Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Yes. "Me" means Kṛṣṇa. Right. So then Kṛṣṇa is everything. Mām ekam. *Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." So anyone who has studied Bhagavad*-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. (French) He says he accepts that as being . . . he says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions. Hmm? He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions. But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas . This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. *India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācārya . Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam . So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas . Anyone you'll find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya . So all the ācārya accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (French) He says all the Christian and all the priest, that they tell to him from . . . that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says no. Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. (French) Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it. The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that . . . Eh? What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they . . . it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify. And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem. Now . . . now, what is his problem? That he did never disclose. Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live. So he has got his opinion; I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be solved. Does he agree? (French) He says: "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence . . ." Then why shall I agree to his point? (French) So . . . So he says: "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion, just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says: "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work." No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. (French) But what practical thing is he doing? *What he says, what he says . . . he's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad*-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel. So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? (French) *He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad*-gītā , and people are very, very interested. *He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad*-gītā . *No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad*-gītā . (French) What is that? *He says that when he explains Bhagavad*-gītā or presents Bhagavad-gītā to people, he doesn't tell them that, "This is the word of God, and you just have to accept it." *That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad*-gītā . That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā . (French) *So he says that he thinks the same about us, that we are also not understanding perfectly Bhagavad*-gītā . Then let him understand from us. No, he says he thinks that we don't understand. (simultaneously with Yogeśvara) He thinks that we don't understand. Eh? He says that he thinks that we have not perfectly understood. So let us discuss who understands—you or me. So who will decide? You are understanding or I am understanding—who'll decide? (French) Who will decide it? *So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want? Religious problem—any problem. No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. (French with devotees) Now, this question . . . listen. Our Bhagavān dāsa says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better? And anyone who joins us loses all his problems. (French) He says then that's very serious, because if you have no problems, that means you are trying to escape from the world, because there world is full of problems. We are in the Paris City. How we have escaped from the world? (laughter) We have got branches in London, in Paris, in New York and big, big cities, and all these boys are coming from big, big cities. How they have escaped? It is not justice. If you says that, "They have escaped," that is wrong statement. We are not escaping anything. (French) What kind of proof are you looking for? Let's talk about proof. What kind of proof are you looking for? (French) Now, another point is, he's accusing us that we're escaping. Why he's escaping Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (French) He says he thinks that what we're doing is simply a kind of medicine that doesn't actually resolve the problems that people are facing. If it is not result, then how this boy says: "We have no problem"? The patient says that he has cured, and you say that it is not curing? (French) (to translators) So repeat to Prabhupāda what he said. (French) We have proof that anyone from any part of the world who takes to this process loses his problems. It's not a matter of Western or Eastern. (French) With your permission, he would like to take leave. Why? He should stay with us. Let us conclude. Why you are flying away? We have started one discussion. Let it be finished. Why you are going away? (French) That means he is escaping. He says because he works in the evenings. He's a theater critic. That's all right. Some way or other, he's escaping. (French) A man . . . With pleasure, he would like to come back to finish the discussion. Yes. (French) And with friendship. Yes. Oh, yes. That's it. Don't escape. (French) When we have begun the discussion, let us finish. Don't escape. (French) Thank you. Haribol. Jaya. Thank you. Make sure he has some more prasādam before he goes. I'll bring it. (guest leaves) (aside) Hmm, open. (to devotees outside room) . . . Prabhupāda is very tired. He's just finished a long evening. So when there is discussion, you should all be present. It is very interesting. Those who are our men, GBC men, they must know. They come in like Keśī demon, and they go out with prasādam in their mouth. (laughter) They are escaping. We are not escaping. We want to capture everyone. (laughter) He has no clear idea what is the aim of life. He likes to see people engaged in work that is humanitarian, that will resolve the problems of the world. That everyone says. All rascals says like that, "humanitarian." He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or Communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and Communist. This is their humanitarian work. *He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad*-gītā in a certain way, like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body. Yes. And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is . . . Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa. They're trying to interpret that Kṛṣṇa is just our own intelligence or . . . The point is even when they see the practical proof, they don't accept it. They're so stubborn. You be strong. Don't be . . . they cannot conquer us. But you be more strong. (end) Conversation A -- June 13, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru's) (French) (translating for M. Deshimaru throughout) He thinks that . . . he suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them. That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (Prabhupada's comments translated throughout by Yogeśvara) (French) He says: "This force is the soul." Yes. So soul is a person. (French) He's confused, how? What do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person. Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person. His question is—well how is it that the soul is also a person? Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. (French) He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference—that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one. Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat: it is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. (French) He says that, well, to . . . he doesn't see the application. He says if we're just . . . Why not application? Why not application? He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not. Because he has got different dress, different person. (French) So he's asking: Well, therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering? That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all . . . just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (aside) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC? (French) He says there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it. (correcting Yogeśvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. "If you receive an arrows." You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body, because that's the cause of suffering . . . (aside) Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks? I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work. That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man, Bhagavān dāsa? These important talks going on and you do not . . . you think that you have learned everything. What is this? This young gentleman's question is: If you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it. No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows. That is his point also. Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. (French) He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self. Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. (French) Yes, he must understand that he is crazy. Yes. He must know . . . he may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man. Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate. His point . . . he says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more. Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity . . . So the insanity is just like you are dressed, and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. (French) He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance. So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese," "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body, he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. (French) They believe that the soul and the body is one thing. How it is one? (French) He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated. How the man becomes dead? (French) He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force. Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth. Merges? Just like a flower grows from the earth . . . They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? (French) He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies . . . (break) (French) He says himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer. Zen philosophy answer? (French) He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything. And what you are now? (French) And now he is himself. Now he is different. So how you became from zero? No, he don't say he is different. He says: "Now I am myself." (French with guest) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same. Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? (French) He says the man is there. The suffering is there. No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero beginning, and he will be zero, and now he is also zero. (French) He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect, everything is zero. But there is another aspect—there is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem. Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter) Just dying, that solves all the problems. No, he said that is natural. (French) He says religious life is a very deep thing on man, and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it don't matter. He has to search. No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? (French) He says actually he doesn't start from zero; he starts from this cosmic force. Yes. He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force. That means . . . you cannot define, that means your knowledge is imperfect. (French) He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down . . . He says actually a human mind cannot define it. He says a human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force. If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease: unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. (French with Yogeśvara) *(to Pṛthu*-putra) Maybe you can translate that. He says one thing—we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it. Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. (French) They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know. Yes. That . . . what is the cause of the suffering? (French) He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself. So let him become in knowledge. How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? (French with Yogeśvara) I'm finding it hard to be able to translate, because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant. What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. (French) He says this knowledge is there anywhere, for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested. No, why . . .? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. (French) He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance. What is that something? Do you know it? (French) He called this things God. That is God. So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. (French) He says: "Well, all right, that's okay. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering." Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. (French) He says but you are suffering still. I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. (French) He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment. But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? (French) He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question. No, we are not choosing. God is asking to do this. (French) He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result. No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside to devotee) Go. Take sleep. (French) He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying . . . No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. (French) According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? Why doesn't everyone just kill themselves? (French with devotees) No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? (French) He says from the medical point, that's all right. But from the religious point . . . So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? (French) He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life . . . Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy. But . . . Real. The premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens. That is also desire, to give up all desire. Yes, it is. That is also desire (French) He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori , without anything, then he is practicing the satori . Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles) No point. It's ambiguous. (French with devotees) For himself it's just to practice zazen , to meditate on Zen. That is also desire. (French) He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that; we would like to know God, or something like that. But by practicing zazen , we . . . finally the goal, we just come to the point, we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen . Then what is that position of no desire? The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again, without any self. Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? (French) He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force. Does that harmony means to merge? Now let me explain. Suppose a material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? (French with devotees) Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer. He says, "So then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal . . ." But I mean to say, what result you will get more than the cats and dogs? Why practice? (French) What happens to the cat and the dog in the end? Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, and the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness. Then they have to accept good work and bad work. Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul, or the self, takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy . . . *That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Śūnyam means you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ( CC Madhya 19.167). But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu . . . you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self . . . That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam , to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished? No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. (French) As soon as one realizes he is spirit soul, then there is no more suffering. Their point is they come . . . Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego. No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire. Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire. So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. It is something like this—just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievouslessness. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievouslessness, that he does not know. *(French with Pṛthu*-putra) He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire. No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say "spiritual," then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire. When we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material. Purified, purified. Purified desire. (French) Prabhupāda says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite, but it's pure desire. (French) He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but . . . Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. (French) They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material. No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease, he is also lying down, he is also eating, he is also passing stool. And if he is informed that, "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again . . .?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured." Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy. That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. (French) He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are . . . together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal. But he has no knowledge that although . . . just like here is my leg and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? (French with devotees) He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life. Then why . . . how he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand. He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain . . . Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As I prick the nail cutter here, oh that, "Oooooh!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand? The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material. Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. (French with devotees as they try to explain) It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness, is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. (French) As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. (French) He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many, many things afterwards. Yes, soul has a form. (French) He's asking is the form of the soul material? No, spiritual. (French) He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form. Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. (French) You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards . . . they get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't . . . they don't have the next step, or the spiritual. No understanding of the spiritual. (French) He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter. What that means . . . that's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything, because everything is everything. There's no discrimination. Yes, there's no self. (French) He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one. Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. (French) He says yes, for sure, we all die. Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. (French) He says but the goal . . . Has the dead man has any daily life? (French) He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin. That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles) No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? (French) That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. (French) He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know that we are going to be . . . that we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him. What is that? What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life. So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? (French) He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too. Are you a demon? (French) As we want. No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal killing. So he wanted to stop this animal killing. (French) He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message. Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind; that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else. At least he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. (French) He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. (French) He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha. They don't have the same historical . . . I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself for a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history, as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. (French) He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha . No, no, buddha , actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the . . .? Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started . . . *So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, "knowledge." Budhā bhāva*-saman . . . (break) (French) The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in a hermitage. Zen . . . Nirvāṇa . Finish everything. Yes. Zen allows a man . . . according to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results. So that is our philosophy. We . . . Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. (French) What is the use of practice? If you practice or you don't practice, you still get the same result. No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice. What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes. The problem is still death, though. The problem is still death. No, practice without any aim . . . Well they say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service . . . No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim? When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen , his concept of Buddha, is that disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice. No, if he says that, "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. (French) He says zazen is in himself; the satori is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori , but the satori is going automatically with the practice. No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? (French) He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal. Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense, "Goal is without goal"? Then what is this? These are vague terms. It's like saying nothing is true. But then that's a truism. It is darkness. They want to become minus. But he is plus always. No, if you have no goal . . . there is example—"Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes . . . if the . . . (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster. Well, they have an aim, but the aim is . . . because they haven't . . . That you say they have got, he does not say. You say. No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception. So without aim, what is the use of practice? (French) *He agrees, but he prefers his non*-goal . . . (indistinct) He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal. That is foolishness. Without goal practicing something, it is foolishness. (French) No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say. No, he does not know what is that goal. He does not know what is that goal. *Well, he says the goal is to become goal*-less. *We give the goal . . . we give the goal, yajñārthe. Yajñārthe karma . We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajña*-puruṣa . We know the goal. (French) He says: "Who is Viṣṇu?" Viṣṇu is God. (French) And how we can satisfy God? That you have to learn from me. (French) He says yes. *"Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically, then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is . . . the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life. The aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf . . . the suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life, that's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation, he does not know where is the bead? On the . . . there is a bead. Just see. On the heater there's someone's beads. So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is? It is mine. You are so forgetful? No, I was looking for them. Why? Why did you . . .? I left them on your bathroom door, I think. Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution if you do not know what is the real goal. (French) He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal. He says the real goal, the real things . . . No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. You have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child: he does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind followers. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. (French) He says: "Who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?" Who can judge? But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. (French with devotees) How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority? How can we tell a real authority? As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority. This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know . . . therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead. So you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand. No, what he's saying is, what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper? So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim that, "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavān was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say: "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that, "I have no problem," "So let me act like him." When he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. (French) He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps. No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material . . . that is no spiritual life. (aside) Find out this verse, yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha . . . *That's Bhagavad*-gītā ? *. . . sama*-duḥkha-sama . . . hmm? Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Y-a-m, yam. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete . . . Ete , yes. 2.15. Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. *Translation: "O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up. That is the position of fixed up. (French with devotees) He's all right with this point. He agree with this point. He will agree with all the points, provided he is fixed up. (French) Not after death; in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. (French) He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time. Not each time. Just like our devotees: they come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice, he becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. (French) He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment. *Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, he is not agitated. Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham . What is that? Is it the same verse? Same verse. *Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram. Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram , "unaltered in distress or happiness." Is there any purport? "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." (French) He says so we then just have to practice now. Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be . . . (French) He says it's very simple. Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that, "I am not this body." Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that, "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple living . . . you are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt you are a living force? (French) No, he has no doubt. Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual, I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress. Then we can ask, "What is that great?" Yes, that we are doing. You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means He has insufficient . . . er, more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. (French) He understand the point. Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand, just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and you are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says "nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child, he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot , or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot . And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. (French) *So, so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ . (laughs) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). His knowledge is lost. "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." *(Pṛthu*-putra translates) So narādhama means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation. Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing. But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? (French) But you are a fool. "In your own way" means foolish way. You do not know. (French, saying he understands the analogy but not what it's meant to prove) The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way, in this universe there is a greater, spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness. But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies. The point is that body and soul are two things. I think it is same thing. You think, but how you can prove? How you can prove that the body . . .? Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone . . . He's asking how can we prove our point? Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. He wants to know how we can prove the body . . . (French) He says: "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead." No, but at the time of death the body is still there. The body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same; something's is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body? How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? (French) He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells. Scientific explanation. So why don't you . . . if you know that, then replace that cell. The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is. They cannot know also what life is. They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body. But the death is . . . you can change also what you say. How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? (French) I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. (French) No, he says that the living force and the body is the same. Yes. Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? (French) Why the body is no more moving? (French) Is just what he says. He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma . Is the karma . The karma . What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the still, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma . Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? (French) "Because the nerves are just cut." No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness? His question is very intelligent. Because the hand is cut. But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness? It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same. You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? (French with devotees) Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. (French) And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death? No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, it can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead. That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death? That he does not know, he cannot explain. Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? (French) (aside) Take it. Make arrangement with him. (French with devotees) (indistinct background comments) (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 13, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru's) (French) (translating for M. Deshimaru throughout) He thinks that . . . he suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them. That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (Prabhupada's comments translated throughout by Yogeśvara) (French) He says: "This force is the soul." Yes. So soul is a person. (French) He's confused, how? What do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person. Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person. His question is—well how is it that the soul is also a person? Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. (French) He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference—that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one. Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat: it is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. (French) He says that, well, to . . . he doesn't see the application. He says if we're just . . . Why not application? Why not application? He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not. Because he has got different dress, different person. (French) So he's asking: Well, therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering? That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all . . . just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (aside) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC? (French) He says there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it. (correcting Yogeśvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. "If you receive an arrows." You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body, because that's the cause of suffering . . . (aside) Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks? I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work. That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man, Bhagavān dāsa? These important talks going on and you do not . . . you think that you have learned everything. What is this? This young gentleman's question is: If you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it. No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows. That is his point also. Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. (French) He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self. Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. (French) Yes, he must understand that he is crazy. Yes. He must know . . . he may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man. Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate. His point . . . he says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more. Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity . . . So the insanity is just like you are dressed, and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. (French) He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance. So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese," "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body, he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. (French) They believe that the soul and the body is one thing. How it is one? (French) He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated. How the man becomes dead? (French) He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force. Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth. Merges? Just like a flower grows from the earth . . . They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? (French) He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies . . . (break) (French) He says himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer. Zen philosophy answer? (French) He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything. And what you are now? (French) And now he is himself. Now he is different. So how you became from zero? No, he don't say he is different. He says: "Now I am myself." (French with guest) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same. Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? (French) He says the man is there. The suffering is there. No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero beginning, and he will be zero, and now he is also zero. (French) He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect, everything is zero. But there is another aspect—there is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem. Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter) Just dying, that solves all the problems. No, he said that is natural. (French) He says religious life is a very deep thing on man, and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it don't matter. He has to search. No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? (French) He says actually he doesn't start from zero; he starts from this cosmic force. Yes. He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force. That means . . . you cannot define, that means your knowledge is imperfect. (French) He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down . . . He says actually a human mind cannot define it. He says a human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force. If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease: unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. (French with Yogeśvara) *(to Pṛthu*-putra) Maybe you can translate that. He says one thing—we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it. Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. (French) They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know. Yes. That . . . what is the cause of the suffering? (French) He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself. So let him become in knowledge. How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? (French with Yogeśvara) I'm finding it hard to be able to translate, because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant. What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. (French) He says this knowledge is there anywhere, for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested. No, why . . .? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. (French) He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance. What is that something? Do you know it? (French) He called this things God. That is God. So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. (French) He says: "Well, all right, that's okay. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering." Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. (French) He says but you are suffering still. I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. (French) He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment. But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? (French) He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question. No, we are not choosing. God is asking to do this. (French) He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result. No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside to devotee) Go. Take sleep. (French) He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying . . . No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. (French) According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? Why doesn't everyone just kill themselves? (French with devotees) No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? (French) He says from the medical point, that's all right. But from the religious point . . . So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? (French) He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life . . . Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy. But . . . Real. The premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens. That is also desire, to give up all desire. Yes, it is. That is also desire (French) He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori , without anything, then he is practicing the satori . Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles) No point. It's ambiguous. (French with devotees) For himself it's just to practice zazen , to meditate on Zen. That is also desire. (French) He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that; we would like to know God, or something like that. But by practicing zazen , we . . . finally the goal, we just come to the point, we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen . Then what is that position of no desire? The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again, without any self. Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? (French) He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force. Does that harmony means to merge? Now let me explain. Suppose a material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? (French with devotees) Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer. He says, "So then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal . . ." But I mean to say, what result you will get more than the cats and dogs? Why practice? (French) What happens to the cat and the dog in the end? Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, and the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness. Then they have to accept good work and bad work. Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul, or the self, takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy . . . *That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Śūnyam means you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ( CC Madhya 19.167). But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu . . . you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self . . . That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam , to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished? No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. (French) As soon as one realizes he is spirit soul, then there is no more suffering. Their point is they come . . . Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego. No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire. Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire. So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. It is something like this—just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievouslessness. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievouslessness, that he does not know. *(French with Pṛthu*-putra) He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire. No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say "spiritual," then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire. When we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material. Purified, purified. Purified desire. (French) Prabhupāda says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite, but it's pure desire. (French) He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but . . . Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. (French) They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material. No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease, he is also lying down, he is also eating, he is also passing stool. And if he is informed that, "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again . . .?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured." Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy. That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. (French) He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are . . . together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal. But he has no knowledge that although . . . just like here is my leg and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? (French with devotees) He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life. Then why . . . how he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand. He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain . . . Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As I prick the nail cutter here, oh that, "Oooooh!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand? The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material. Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. (French with devotees as they try to explain) It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness, is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. (French) As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. (French) He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many, many things afterwards. Yes, soul has a form. (French) He's asking is the form of the soul material? No, spiritual. (French) He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form. Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. (French) You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards . . . they get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't . . . they don't have the next step, or the spiritual. No understanding of the spiritual. (French) He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter. What that means . . . that's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything, because everything is everything. There's no discrimination. Yes, there's no self. (French) He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one. Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. (French) He says yes, for sure, we all die. Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. (French) He says but the goal . . . Has the dead man has any daily life? (French) He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin. That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles) No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? (French) That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. (French) He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know that we are going to be . . . that we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him. What is that? What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life. So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? (French) He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too. Are you a demon? (French) As we want. No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal killing. So he wanted to stop this animal killing. (French) He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message. Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind; that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else. At least he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. (French) He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. (French) He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha. They don't have the same historical . . . I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself for a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history, as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. (French) He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha . No, no, buddha , actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the . . .? Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started . . . *So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, "knowledge." Budhā bhāva*-saman . . . (break) (French) The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in a hermitage. Zen . . . Nirvāṇa . Finish everything. Yes. Zen allows a man . . . according to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results. So that is our philosophy. We . . . Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. (French) What is the use of practice? If you practice or you don't practice, you still get the same result. No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice. What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes. The problem is still death, though. The problem is still death. No, practice without any aim . . . Well they say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service . . . No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim? When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen , his concept of Buddha, is that disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice. No, if he says that, "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. (French) He says zazen is in himself; the satori is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori , but the satori is going automatically with the practice. No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? (French) He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal. Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense, "Goal is without goal"? Then what is this? These are vague terms. It's like saying nothing is true. But then that's a truism. It is darkness. They want to become minus. But he is plus always. No, if you have no goal . . . there is example—"Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes . . . if the . . . (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster. Well, they have an aim, but the aim is . . . because they haven't . . . That you say they have got, he does not say. You say. No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception. So without aim, what is the use of practice? (French) *He agrees, but he prefers his non*-goal . . . (indistinct) He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal. That is foolishness. Without goal practicing something, it is foolishness. (French) No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say. No, he does not know what is that goal. He does not know what is that goal. *Well, he says the goal is to become goal*-less. *We give the goal . . . we give the goal, yajñārthe. Yajñārthe karma . We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajña*-puruṣa . We know the goal. (French) He says: "Who is Viṣṇu?" Viṣṇu is God. (French) And how we can satisfy God? That you have to learn from me. (French) He says yes. *"Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically, then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is . . . the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life. The aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf . . . the suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life, that's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation, he does not know where is the bead? On the . . . there is a bead. Just see. On the heater there's someone's beads. So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is? It is mine. You are so forgetful? No, I was looking for them. Why? Why did you . . .? I left them on your bathroom door, I think. Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution if you do not know what is the real goal. (French) He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal. He says the real goal, the real things . . . No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. You have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child: he does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind followers. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. (French) He says: "Who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?" Who can judge? But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. (French with devotees) How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority? How can we tell a real authority? As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority. This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know . . . therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead. So you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand. No, what he's saying is, what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper? So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim that, "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavān was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say: "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that, "I have no problem," "So let me act like him." When he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. (French) He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps. No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material . . . that is no spiritual life. (aside) Find out this verse, yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha . . . *That's Bhagavad*-gītā ? *. . . sama*-duḥkha-sama . . . hmm? Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Y-a-m, yam. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete . . . Ete , yes. 2.15. Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. *Translation: "O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up. That is the position of fixed up. (French with devotees) He's all right with this point. He agree with this point. He will agree with all the points, provided he is fixed up. (French) Not after death; in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. (French) He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time. Not each time. Just like our devotees: they come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice, he becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. (French) He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment. *Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, he is not agitated. Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham . What is that? Is it the same verse? Same verse. *Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram. Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram , "unaltered in distress or happiness." Is there any purport? "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." (French) He says so we then just have to practice now. Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be . . . (French) He says it's very simple. Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that, "I am not this body." Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that, "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple living . . . you are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt you are a living force? (French) No, he has no doubt. Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual, I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress. Then we can ask, "What is that great?" Yes, that we are doing. You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means He has insufficient . . . er, more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. (French) He understand the point. Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand, just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and you are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says "nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child, he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot , or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot . And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. (French) *So, so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ . (laughs) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). His knowledge is lost. "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." *(Pṛthu*-putra translates) So narādhama means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation. Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing. But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? (French) But you are a fool. "In your own way" means foolish way. You do not know. (French, saying he understands the analogy but not what it's meant to prove) The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way, in this universe there is a greater, spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness. But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies. The point is that body and soul are two things. I think it is same thing. You think, but how you can prove? How you can prove that the body . . .? Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone . . . He's asking how can we prove our point? Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. He wants to know how we can prove the body . . . (French) He says: "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead." No, but at the time of death the body is still there. The body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same; something's is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body? How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? (French) He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells. Scientific explanation. So why don't you . . . if you know that, then replace that cell. The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is. They cannot know also what life is. They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body. But the death is . . . you can change also what you say. How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? (French) I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. (French) No, he says that the living force and the body is the same. Yes. Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? (French) Why the body is no more moving? (French) Is just what he says. He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma . Is the karma . The karma . What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the still, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma . Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? (French) "Because the nerves are just cut." No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness? His question is very intelligent. Because the hand is cut. But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness? It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same. You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? (French with devotees) Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. (French) And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death? No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, it can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead. That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death? That he does not know, he cannot explain. Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? (French) (aside) Take it. Make arrangement with him. (French with devotees) (indistinct background comments) (break) (end) Conversation -- June 14, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe, Director of the Sorbonne University) This book is being published in twelve volumes. Yes. It's . . . (indistinct) Yale University. I think you are familiar with Yale University in the United States. They have already placed advanced order for all these volumes. (French with Jyotirmayī) *We are translating the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literature. You have seen the sample, original verse, word-to-word meaning, then translation, then giving a purport. You wrote the commentary. Yes. What is the paramparā from Caitanya? From Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. The six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. The six Gosvāmīs. Then from the Gosvāmīs there is Śrīnivāsācārya. Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsācārya. Then from him, I think, this Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Then Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, then Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, then my Guru Mahārāja. Next we are. I am the tenth or eleventh, eleventh from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And you have come to a round visit to the West now? I have come several times. Yes, but this time. This time, yes, just to see my centers. I have got many . . . This is your Paris establishment? Yes, Paris establishment, yes. Formerly you were in the south of . . . in the banlieu (suburbs). Yes, before. *At Fontenay*-aux-Roses. One year ago we came here in Paris. It's of course more noisy and . . . but it's more easy and more convenient. When was this Paris center started? It started four years ago. Four years ago. And this is your first visit to this center? No, this is the fourth visit. Fourth visit, every year. Yes. Last year also I came. I installed the Deity. You now come right from Vṛndāvana or . . .? Yes, I am coming from Vṛndāvana, of course, via Delhi. Then Rome, then Geneva, then Paris. Then I shall go to Frankfurt. And from there I shall go to Sydney, Australia. Oh, this is not the direct way. (laughs) *We have a Ratha*-yātrā festival. You have heard of this festival, from Jagannātha Purī? Yes, of course. I have been there. We have this festival in very big, in the same scale, in Australia, London, San Francisco, Chicago. Where is that poster? Australia? Yes. And in all these cities we are joined . . . in San Francisco there are ten thousand people who come at least every year to help pull the carts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *In Chicago also, Philadelphia, there will be Ratha*-yātrā. This is the . . . *(showing poster) This is for Melbourne, Australia, Ratha*-yātrā parade, picture of the parade last year. Last year. No, this year they are advertising. Which is to come. Yes, yes. This is a poster that Haṁsadūta sent for Frankfurt for next week. Yes, yes. This is German language. And all is in the vicinity of Frankfurt. Yes. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted. You understand little Bengali? Do you understand . . . Bengali not. Sanskrit, but not . . . The Bengali words: Pṛthivīte —this is Sanskrit—"all over the world;" āche , "there are"; yata , "as many"; nagarādi grāma, nagara , "towns . . ." Cities and villages. Cities, yes, villages; sarvatra . . . Everywhere. . . . "everywhere"; pracāra , "propaganda" or "publicity," pracāra ; haibe , "there will be"; mora nāma , Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name. So now it is being so. All over the world we have got branches, and they know Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. So that is being now propagated. I understand. So He predicted, and by His great will it is being propagated. How many . . . (indistinct) *We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty*-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand. Yes. Ten thousand. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So . . . and they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are—Indian scholar, I mean—they were surprised when some of my the students, young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa. You have all been to India? Not all. Some of us. Not all. Some of you. We have a very big center in Māyāpur. Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I have been in Navadvīpa. I see. Long ago, in 1936. 1936. Did you see my Guru Mahārāja? No. No. He passed away in 1936 in December. In December. No, I have not seen him. Probably he was already ill or . . . he was ill. Bhaktisiddhānta Saras . . . that is the photograph of my guru . His Guru Mahārāja and his Guru Mahārāja . . . And so on. Yes. This is paramparā . *Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this. And how do you . . .? It was one of your pupils who spoke about Rāmānuja. *Yes, Rāmānuja. He belongs to the Śrī*-sampradāya. Yes. But there is a connection. Oh, yes. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they are connected. Yes. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. So we belong to Madhvācārya. To? *Madhvācārya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu belonged to Madhvācārya. Madhvācārya was direct disciple of Vyāsadeva, and by paramparā , Mādhavendra Purī. Then from Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Īśvara Purī as His spiritual master. So we belong to this Madhvācārya*-sampradāya. Madhvācārya-sampradāya or Brahma-sampradāya. The sampradāya , the disciplic succession, is coming from Lord Brahmā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada. Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva. And Vyāsadeva's disciple is Madhvācārya. And from Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we are, Caitan . . . like that. *One of you mentioned, because I had made a translation of the first . . . the beginning of the Śrī*-bhāṣya , Rāmānuja. *Ācchā. Śrī*-bhāṣya , Bhagavad-gītā ? *No. The Śrī*-bhāṣya , the Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya. Unfortunately, it is out of print. I see. So one of you, I think . . . I mentioned about Rāmānujācārya. Yes. You can read it in the library, but unfortunately, it is out of print. Yes. It is a complete translation of the first part, you see, 850 pages, with the text and notes. Oh, I see. Just like we do text and transliteration? The text is in nāgarī . There are synonyms in your translation? Do you give the synonym for the word? Equivalent. This style here. Prabhupāda gives the Bengali . . . Transliteration? Translation, for pronunciation. No, no, there is no transliteration. Translation, purport or notes. No, there is only translation and notes. But some of the synonyms are in the notes. And the purport also comes in in the notes when necessary. You are teaching a course now? I finished. The year is finished. Yes. You were teaching a course? Not on this . . . What was the name of that course? He was teaching the Tenth Canto. Comparative philosophy, the Indian branch. *But this year you were teaching the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Yes. That was one of them, actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come . . . *So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita*-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita . Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral, or you like some philosophy? I try to be objective, but not neutral. (laughs) I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara. That, Rāmānuja . . . Personal . . . Personal attraction. Yes. Although, of course, I try . . . I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see. I see. The notions of Brahman and ātman both in Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja. That one is not out of print. It is called in French L'Absolute selons les Vedānta . *But Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ devakī*-putraḥ . He has written like that in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā . *Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. *Yes. So . . . and all the ācāryas , Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So practically, amongst the authorities, Indian ācāryas , everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rāmānujācārya has written his bhāṣya on Bhagavad*-gītā . I read it. Yes. And Śaṅkara's also. Both. *Rāmānujācārya has not written. Śaṅkara has written. Śarīraka*-bhāṣya , Vedānta-sūtra . He has written comment on Bhagavad-gītā . Yes, and Rāmānuja. *Rāmānujācārya also. Also Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī, he has written. He belongs to Viṣṇu Svāmī–sampradāya. And our Gauḍīya*-Vaiṣṇava, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, he has written comments. And Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Oh, yes, there is long list of commentaries on the *Gītā* . Yes. There are ten ṭīkās . This is published . . .? Yes. Where is it printed? It is printed in Japan. And we have our publishing house in New York. *In New York. Yes. This is the second volume of the first . . . Ādi*-līlā. *Yes. This is second. Ādi*-līlā , yes. You are familiar with Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy? Yes. You see, I started Sanskrit and Indian studies in 1929, when we were abroad. You have been in India several times. Many times, yes. Where did you stay generally? In several places, but mainly in Calcutta. Calcutta. Mainly in Calcutta. But in many other places too. Calcutta where? Park Mansions, Park Street, near Asiatic Society. Park Street. Asiatic Society. Not far from. Yes, I know that. It is just on the junction of Park Street and Chowringee. Calcutta is my birthplace. You were born in Calcutta. Yes. All our former relatives, they are in Calcutta. Even now. Yes. I think the situation is better now in Calcutta. Improving. Yes, little better. Because my last visit there was in 1970, and it was the worst moment. But I hear that it is improving. Improving, yes. Just near that Asiatic Society we held our Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival in front of, I think, the museum. Yes, on Chowringee. Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling. This year? (break) . . . God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less Communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow, and that is the position now. But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is . . . at least in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year, I suppose. No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69, there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. (to devotee) You were at that time there? No. No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites . . . Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation. Especially any rich man or politician. Yes. The Vice Chancellor of Jadavpur University was killed the day before I arrived in Calcutta. Old gentleman? Yes. And he was retiring. He was still in activity, but he was soon retiring, and he was walking from the University campus to his home, not far, a short walk. And he was killed by one of these . . . Naxalites. Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities. Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions. Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killing. And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger Communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic, and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be. Now it is better. Actually, there was no government. At that time, yes. Yes. They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble. Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable . . . respectable or nonrespect . . . no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that, "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India. Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper? Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana? Yes. Where did you stay? I did not stay. I just visit, went around. I see. And it was long ago. *There is a place, Ramaṇa*-reti. Did you see that Oriental Philosophical Institution? It was not yet started at that time. No, it was there, 1970. No, when you went to Vṛndāvana? *Thirty*-six or '7. *Thirty*-six? Oh, yes. It was not started. Yes. Ramaṇa-reti, there is a road from Vṛndāvana to . . . connecting with the road from Delhi to Agra. That road is called Chattikara, Chattikara Road. So on that road we have got our temple. It is locally known as Ramaṇa-reti. After Mathurā. After Mathurā. It is Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana. There is a shortcut. Formerly . . . the road is very old road, from Delhi to Vṛndāvana, taking a turn at the place known as Chattikara. So on that road we are constructing our temple. Constructing now? No, it is finished. It is ancient? But you are . . . (to devotee) Do you have the photographs? Don't think so. Some slides somewhere. But that is an old shrine. It is not a new establishment. *Yes. No, formerly I was staying. I have got my place there also, one of the oldest temple, Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Rādhā-Dāmodara. It was . . . this temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. There are seven important temples: Govindajī's temple, Madana-Mohana, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Rādhā-Ramaṇa and . . . Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. *Rādhā*-Giridhārī. Not Giridhārī. That is later. *Rādhā*-Gopīnātha. *Gopīnātha, yes. So Gopīnātha temple, Madana-Mohana temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Śyāmasundara and Gokulānanda, Gokulānanda. These are old seven temples. Later on, other big, big temples, Raṅganātha temple and Gaekwar temple, like that, Jaipur temple, they came into existence. But there are five thousand temples in Vṛndāvana's city, municipal area. Practically each house is a temple. In every house there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and being worshiped by some devotees. The Ārya-samājī movement . . . you know something about Ārya-samāja? Yes. Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody . . . Even now, nowadays, now they are . . . *No, their influence is gone, Ārya*-samāja. *No, I mean the Ārya*-samāja is no more very active now. They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. How long will you stay in Paris? I am going on Sunday morning. To Frankfurt. Yes. And then you stay a little longer. I will stay there one week, and then, on the 23rd . . . 26th. No, 23rd. June 23rd we fly to Sydney. We stop in Bombay one day. It will be very hot now in Bombay. Now it is . . . might be raining. Yes, it might be raining. Because from 10th June monsoon begins. Bombay is not too hot as Vṛndāvana, as Vṛndāvana. On account of the seashore. Ah. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Vṛndāvana is very hot. If you go back to India, you can . . . you are welcome to stay in our temples. In Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana. We have Māyāpur, near Navadvīpa. And we also purchased some very nice land outside of Bombay, Juhu. Yes, I know. Hyderabad and Calcutta. In Delhi also, we have a nice center there. What part is it in? It's in West End. It is very close to the airport. And in Calcutta? Yes. Near Park Street, Camac Street. Camac Street I know. By Hindi High School. Very nice, old . . . it was called the Rai Castle. It used to be occupied by some governors. (devotee gives the professor some prasādam ) Thank you very much. Just a little. Śrīla Prabhupāda, during that time of the Naxalites you had mentioned that after that program, you said due to the effects of our program, it stopped all that Naxalite movement. Because very shortly after we had that pandal in the Maidan, the whole Naxalite movement was finished. You said due to that, because we purified the atmosphere . . . That's a fact. . . . with chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The government could do nothing. The police were helpless. And the festival in Sydney will take a long time? Sydney festival is for how many days? I think it's just for one day. On the 29th. *One day, 29th of June. Ratha*-yātrā festival, like in Jagannātha Purī. Today it is better here, little warmer. These days were unusually cool for this time of year. How are you feeling? When we went to visit you in your office, it wasn't sure whether you could come, because you were not feeling very well. I am not very well, no. What is your age? I got cold. No, age. Oh, I shall be seventy after three weeks. *Oh. I am also seventy*-eight. But your health is better than me. You have got your natural teeth? Yes. Oh, then very good. (laughter) This is a nice . . . Yes, this place is nice. Nice view. Not too noisy. I wonder how? Because you are on the small street. Tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving conference at Salle Pleyel. Yes, I know. Tonight. I have seen. This? This is a picture. I do not know wherefrom they have collected. (laughter) It is from Yogeśvara. It is supposed that the gopīs are looking to the picture of Kṛṣṇa, is it not? Yes. Very likely. But this picture also appears to be searching out Aniruddha. Uṣā. Uṣā, yes. Citralekhā Yes, that's right. She showed her a picture. Because she had never seen Aniruddha. She saw only in dream. So her friend Citralekhā showed. She showed that, "Find out whom you dreamed." Then she pointed out. I remember that. In the . . . Yes, in the Bhāgavata . I could not recognize from this . . . *So immediately she brought from Dvārakā*-dhāma palace direct to the palace of Uṣā. Vyom . . . what is called, the asura ? What is his name? Bhaumāsura. Bhaumāsura. Bāṇāsura, Bāṇāsura. The picture, where is that picture, find out. Bāṇāsura. Bāṇāsura was appreciating, "Oh, very nice couple." But he had to challenge, "Why you have entered my palace and talking with my unmarried girl?" Yes. This is the *Kṛṣṇa Book* that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written. It is a summary of the Tenth Canto. And all these paintings, these are done by our artists in New York. (pause) I'm afraid I should go now. Yes. Monsieur Lacombe has a course. Not a course but a meeting. And as the traffic is rather thick now, it is better to not to take a chance. I should not be late. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . on a book. It is accepted as being authentic. All the universities use his texts. And he has a big office in the Sorbonne. The Sorbonne is the most famous French university. He is a big man. Actually, it's not famous—it's infamous. Hmm? No? Actually, they're not famous; they're infamous No, why infamous? They are famous. Why do you say infamous? Well, I thought fame only referred to devotee. Huh? I thought fame was to be referred to . . . for devotee. That is your sentiment. But practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous. I just saw that . . . maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent." Oh, ācchā ? They said he was found innocent. Who is? President Nixon In the court? Yes. Because . . . you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught . . . Prabhupāda knows about the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By a court? Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign, making secret tape recordings against the other party. He did? Yes. And still he is innocent? Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the Republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the Democrats, and had spies and everything, in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men, and they were all fired. So that is not bad, because in politics you have to do that. (laughter) Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault? But only he got caught. And all of his men quit. No, no. Suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies, so I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not . . . everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am. They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things. Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on. According to the American government it is illegal to . . . each person has his own plans, and it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent. Court says. The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said: "I didn't know anything about it." He says: "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them." Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy? No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. Just like during any war they always . . . *Politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin*-brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that . . . Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there were some misunderstanding in chess playing, that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas , these things are not uncommon. But isn't that not good, because the, like, politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public that, "When I am elected, I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many . . . they pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are . . . I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the . . . Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding. Hmm. Because we will also have to do that. If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana . You understand Bengali? No. That "When you are going to dance . . . a girl, or a lady, is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana , became little ashamed. So "You are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground. But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying: "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals . . . just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying: "How can these peoples be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life?" That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that, "They cannot be leader," then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that, "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it. Therefore we must cheat. *Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that, "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously, because I know, "I am also thief." (chuckles) So, but this appeal, that does not appeal because, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that, "He is thief. He cannot be trusted," then he knows that, "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Chore chore mastuto bhāi. This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that, "We all are thieves, all cousin*-brothers; so why this man should be only accused?" Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves. But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand, because he is also vicious. Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa, during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said: "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā the elephant, he said the elephant . . . Yes, that was a tactics. So . . . And also when Karṇa . . . Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot. The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character, that people can see that "Here is a ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics . . . they are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, the people. So when you point out that, "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said: "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family member, they scrutinizingly studying that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?" Heaven is where all my friends are. So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty. Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming . . . the same thing, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is exactly what people are saying now. They say: "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest, they have too." We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places; he could not find out. First of all he gave him four places that, "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles that, "What is wrong there?" It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find a spiritual atmosphere. *Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that, "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma. Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life: illicit sex, intoxication . . . he was first*-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left. Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said: "Swāmījī will not be successful, because he does not allow free love in his movement." That's it. He says: "That is why I had to leave, because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University. That Neil. Yeah, Neil. Oh. And he told me that, "Swāmījī will not be successful in his movement, because he will not allow free love." I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple. No, he cannot give up these bad habits. You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. Hmm? You said that at the meeting, the conference in Geneva, that no one has died from giving up smoking or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do. *No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man*-to-man marriage. Most unnatural. *Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church, so then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man*-to-man marriage. Just see. They compromise just to keep their followers. It's a matter of money. And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the Church? (laughs) There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God. Because the Church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian Church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there? I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not . . . they were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out. That is going on everywhere. And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it. He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him. That once I met a little old lady on the streets of Denver when I was distributing books. Old lady. Very old. She was walking down the street. She was all bent over. And she asked me what I was doing, and I showed her our magazine and explained that we were teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and she said: "Oh, is this yoga ? I remember way back when Vivekananda came here. Have you ever heard of him?" So we began talking about Vivekananda. She said that she was there when he made his tour. She was in Denver when he made his tour of the United States, and that he stopped there for one meeting and lectured. And she went there to see that meeting, but she said that all in all she was disgusted with him because he was so much attracted to the women. She said that he was victimized by the women. They were all trying to get him, and she said so when he went back to India he was a broken man. Yes, she (he) took with him three women. One of them was Sister Nivedita. Also you told us in India about Aurobindo and Ramakrishna. Aurobindo went also. Aurobindo, when that French woman came, he also fell to her, but just to cover it up he has called her "Mother," because in India, when you call someone "Mother . . ." No, everyone knows he (she) is mother and he is father. Yeah, right. And they don't think . . . there is no question of sex. When they think of mother and father, they don't think of these things. Also with Ramakrishna. He also had his divine mother. You told us a story in Calcutta that he was very debauched. In a village he used to chase the young women. And his brother actually made him famous. It is very difficult to . . . not to be victimized by woman. It is very difficult. Unless you are victimized by Kṛṣṇa first. Yes. One who is, I mean, what is called, captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, then he is not victimized. *Madana*-mohana. Madana-dāhana and Madana-mohana . Unless one is captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, he will be troubled by the arrows of the Cupid. Madana-dāhana. The Cupid is known, he has got arrow. If he pierces, then he becomes victim. You didn't find it necessary to enter into any kind of discussion with this French professor just now. There was no real discussion of philosophy. I was wondering why that didn't happen. He did not raise any question. And he is simply translator. He has no philosophy. I asked him, "Which philosophy you are . . .?" So "I make comparative study." I think he did not like to enter into philosophical . . . is it not? Hmm. Most of these gentlemen who come here, when they see you and begin talking with you, like you said, they show their ignorance when they begin to speak. So they prefer not to speak. They always make some excuse that they have an appointment, because they know that if they speak, they will be in real trouble. Yes. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A foolish man is very nice as long as he does not speak. As soon as he will speak, his foolishness will be captured." So therefore, sometimes they do not like to talk. Remain as a nice man, (laughs) without being discovered. I think maybe the first gentleman who was here, who said . . . he was talking about experiencing God. He says: "Actually I experienced God, but actually God is beyond my experience." You gave him such a hard time that I think he must have made phone calls to all these other men, "Be careful of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is very dangerous." (laughter) I told him that, "You have no experience." He turned so red when you said: "But how were you saying you are having experience, and you just said God is beyond your experience?" And then he says: "I never said that. You put those words into my mouth." I whispered in his ear, "We have it on tape. We will play it back for you." (laughter) *Oh*-ho. We have got Kṛṣṇa. We are not afraid in challenging anyone. I believe on that formula. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). I believe that verse very strongly, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be within this list: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . That's all. I have explained that verse little elaborately. Read it. It is very interesting. Where is Satsvarūpa? He is in the other room. Would you like him to come in? "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *"It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā that simply by surrendering oneself unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, one can surmount the stringent laws of material nature. At this point a question arises. How is it that educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the leaders of ordinary men do not surrender unto the lotus . . . (break) . . . Manu, Vyāsa, Devala, Asita, Janaka, Prahlāda, Bali, and later on, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Śrī Caitanya and many others who are faithful philosophers, politicians, educators and scientists, etc., surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers, scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord. They have no idea of God. They simply manufacture their own worldly plans and consequently complicate the problems of material . . ." Everyone comes, they say: "Why people are suffering?" They are concerned with the people suffering. Actually not. That is a plea only, as if he has taken the task of minimizing the suffering of humanity. He poses himself as very philanthropist. Actually, he cannot do anything. *"Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic plan*-makers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina , or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic plan-maker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic plan-maker is called duṣkṛtina , which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction . . ." Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything—they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their . . . they have come. People come to see Paris just for that . . . what is that theater? Folies Bergere. Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act . . . nobody goes to . . . beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina . Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on, just like we are trying to do: take prasādam , worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches. But there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina . They have got merit to construct very nice, wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then? (reading) "In the *Gītā* it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object. But still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas , or miscreants, are of four different patterns as outlined below. *1. The mūḍhas : those who are grossly foolish like hard*-working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma , action, is meant for yajña , sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas , material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving Mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources." Generally, we see now, especially in the Western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany? Amsterdam is the same way. Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes. It is the center. *This is very prominent in the Western country, which we are asking that no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable. They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for. Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. (aside) All right, keep it. Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even they can . . . That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised. We don't have a very good reputation in India? Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava. No, he means the Western people themselves. "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that. They think that . . . they won't allow even a Westerner to marry their daughter, because the Westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry with the brahmacārīs , the American brahmacārīs , but the parents would not allow because they said: "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the Westerners, that they . . . the life is so fast. Another brahmacārī saved. (laughs) One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy? There's that boy in Bombay, he married one Indian girl. He is staying. *Jagat*-puruṣa. He has not left as yet. But he can leave any moment. (laughs) No. He is not American; he is devotee. Therefore he is reliable. Hmm. (pause) Hmm. We have to arrange a few things. What is the next program? Is there any program? A big hall meeting. Today? Tonight. What time? Eight o'clock. You will be speaking around 8:30. All right. (end) Conversation -- June 14, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe, Director of the Sorbonne University) This book is being published in twelve volumes. Yes. It's . . . (indistinct) Yale University. I think you are familiar with Yale University in the United States. They have already placed advanced order for all these volumes. (French with Jyotirmayī) *We are translating the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literature. You have seen the sample, original verse, word-to-word meaning, then translation, then giving a purport. You wrote the commentary. Yes. What is the paramparā from Caitanya? From Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. The six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. The six Gosvāmīs. Then from the Gosvāmīs there is Śrīnivāsācārya. Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsācārya. Then from him, I think, this Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Then Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, then Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, then my Guru Mahārāja. Next we are. I am the tenth or eleventh, eleventh from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And you have come to a round visit to the West now? I have come several times. Yes, but this time. This time, yes, just to see my centers. I have got many . . . This is your Paris establishment? Yes, Paris establishment, yes. Formerly you were in the south of . . . in the banlieu (suburbs). Yes, before. *At Fontenay*-aux-Roses. One year ago we came here in Paris. It's of course more noisy and . . . but it's more easy and more convenient. When was this Paris center started? It started four years ago. Four years ago. And this is your first visit to this center? No, this is the fourth visit. Fourth visit, every year. Yes. Last year also I came. I installed the Deity. You now come right from Vṛndāvana or . . .? Yes, I am coming from Vṛndāvana, of course, via Delhi. Then Rome, then Geneva, then Paris. Then I shall go to Frankfurt. And from there I shall go to Sydney, Australia. Oh, this is not the direct way. (laughs) *We have a Ratha*-yātrā festival. You have heard of this festival, from Jagannātha Purī? Yes, of course. I have been there. We have this festival in very big, in the same scale, in Australia, London, San Francisco, Chicago. Where is that poster? Australia? Yes. And in all these cities we are joined . . . in San Francisco there are ten thousand people who come at least every year to help pull the carts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *In Chicago also, Philadelphia, there will be Ratha*-yātrā. This is the . . . *(showing poster) This is for Melbourne, Australia, Ratha*-yātrā parade, picture of the parade last year. Last year. No, this year they are advertising. Which is to come. Yes, yes. This is a poster that Haṁsadūta sent for Frankfurt for next week. Yes, yes. This is German language. And all is in the vicinity of Frankfurt. Yes. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted. You understand little Bengali? Do you understand . . . Bengali not. Sanskrit, but not . . . The Bengali words: Pṛthivīte —this is Sanskrit—"all over the world;" āche , "there are"; yata , "as many"; nagarādi grāma, nagara , "towns . . ." Cities and villages. Cities, yes, villages; sarvatra . . . Everywhere. . . . "everywhere"; pracāra , "propaganda" or "publicity," pracāra ; haibe , "there will be"; mora nāma , Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name. So now it is being so. All over the world we have got branches, and they know Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. So that is being now propagated. I understand. So He predicted, and by His great will it is being propagated. How many . . . (indistinct) *We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty*-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand. Yes. Ten thousand. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So . . . and they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are—Indian scholar, I mean—they were surprised when some of my the students, young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa. You have all been to India? Not all. Some of us. Not all. Some of you. We have a very big center in Māyāpur. Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I have been in Navadvīpa. I see. Long ago, in 1936. 1936. Did you see my Guru Mahārāja? No. No. He passed away in 1936 in December. In December. No, I have not seen him. Probably he was already ill or . . . he was ill. Bhaktisiddhānta Saras . . . that is the photograph of my guru . His Guru Mahārāja and his Guru Mahārāja . . . And so on. Yes. This is paramparā . *Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this. And how do you . . .? It was one of your pupils who spoke about Rāmānuja. *Yes, Rāmānuja. He belongs to the Śrī*-sampradāya. Yes. But there is a connection. Oh, yes. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they are connected. Yes. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. So we belong to Madhvācārya. To? *Madhvācārya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu belonged to Madhvācārya. Madhvācārya was direct disciple of Vyāsadeva, and by paramparā , Mādhavendra Purī. Then from Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Īśvara Purī as His spiritual master. So we belong to this Madhvācārya*-sampradāya. Madhvācārya-sampradāya or Brahma-sampradāya. The sampradāya , the disciplic succession, is coming from Lord Brahmā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada. Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva. And Vyāsadeva's disciple is Madhvācārya. And from Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we are, Caitan . . . like that. *One of you mentioned, because I had made a translation of the first . . . the beginning of the Śrī*-bhāṣya , Rāmānuja. *Ācchā. Śrī*-bhāṣya , Bhagavad-gītā ? *No. The Śrī*-bhāṣya , the Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya. Unfortunately, it is out of print. I see. So one of you, I think . . . I mentioned about Rāmānujācārya. Yes. You can read it in the library, but unfortunately, it is out of print. Yes. It is a complete translation of the first part, you see, 850 pages, with the text and notes. Oh, I see. Just like we do text and transliteration? The text is in nāgarī . There are synonyms in your translation? Do you give the synonym for the word? Equivalent. This style here. Prabhupāda gives the Bengali . . . Transliteration? Translation, for pronunciation. No, no, there is no transliteration. Translation, purport or notes. No, there is only translation and notes. But some of the synonyms are in the notes. And the purport also comes in in the notes when necessary. You are teaching a course now? I finished. The year is finished. Yes. You were teaching a course? Not on this . . . What was the name of that course? He was teaching the Tenth Canto. Comparative philosophy, the Indian branch. *But this year you were teaching the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Yes. That was one of them, actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come . . . *So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita*-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita . Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral, or you like some philosophy? I try to be objective, but not neutral. (laughs) I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara. That, Rāmānuja . . . Personal . . . Personal attraction. Yes. Although, of course, I try . . . I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see. I see. The notions of Brahman and ātman both in Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja. That one is not out of print. It is called in French L'Absolute selons les Vedānta . *But Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ devakī*-putraḥ . He has written like that in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā . *Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. *Yes. So . . . and all the ācāryas , Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So practically, amongst the authorities, Indian ācāryas , everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rāmānujācārya has written his bhāṣya on Bhagavad*-gītā . I read it. Yes. And Śaṅkara's also. Both. *Rāmānujācārya has not written. Śaṅkara has written. Śarīraka*-bhāṣya , Vedānta-sūtra . He has written comment on Bhagavad-gītā . Yes, and Rāmānuja. *Rāmānujācārya also. Also Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī, he has written. He belongs to Viṣṇu Svāmī–sampradāya. And our Gauḍīya*-Vaiṣṇava, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, he has written comments. And Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Oh, yes, there is long list of commentaries on the *Gītā* . Yes. There are ten ṭīkās . This is published . . .? Yes. Where is it printed? It is printed in Japan. And we have our publishing house in New York. *In New York. Yes. This is the second volume of the first . . . Ādi*-līlā. *Yes. This is second. Ādi*-līlā , yes. You are familiar with Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy? Yes. You see, I started Sanskrit and Indian studies in 1929, when we were abroad. You have been in India several times. Many times, yes. Where did you stay generally? In several places, but mainly in Calcutta. Calcutta. Mainly in Calcutta. But in many other places too. Calcutta where? Park Mansions, Park Street, near Asiatic Society. Park Street. Asiatic Society. Not far from. Yes, I know that. It is just on the junction of Park Street and Chowringee. Calcutta is my birthplace. You were born in Calcutta. Yes. All our former relatives, they are in Calcutta. Even now. Yes. I think the situation is better now in Calcutta. Improving. Yes, little better. Because my last visit there was in 1970, and it was the worst moment. But I hear that it is improving. Improving, yes. Just near that Asiatic Society we held our Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival in front of, I think, the museum. Yes, on Chowringee. Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling. This year? (break) . . . God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less Communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow, and that is the position now. But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is . . . at least in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year, I suppose. No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69, there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. (to devotee) You were at that time there? No. No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites . . . Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation. Especially any rich man or politician. Yes. The Vice Chancellor of Jadavpur University was killed the day before I arrived in Calcutta. Old gentleman? Yes. And he was retiring. He was still in activity, but he was soon retiring, and he was walking from the University campus to his home, not far, a short walk. And he was killed by one of these . . . Naxalites. Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities. Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions. Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killing. And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger Communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic, and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be. Now it is better. Actually, there was no government. At that time, yes. Yes. They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble. Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable . . . respectable or nonrespect . . . no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that, "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India. Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper? Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana? Yes. Where did you stay? I did not stay. I just visit, went around. I see. And it was long ago. *There is a place, Ramaṇa*-reti. Did you see that Oriental Philosophical Institution? It was not yet started at that time. No, it was there, 1970. No, when you went to Vṛndāvana? *Thirty*-six or '7. *Thirty*-six? Oh, yes. It was not started. Yes. Ramaṇa-reti, there is a road from Vṛndāvana to . . . connecting with the road from Delhi to Agra. That road is called Chattikara, Chattikara Road. So on that road we have got our temple. It is locally known as Ramaṇa-reti. After Mathurā. After Mathurā. It is Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana. There is a shortcut. Formerly . . . the road is very old road, from Delhi to Vṛndāvana, taking a turn at the place known as Chattikara. So on that road we are constructing our temple. Constructing now? No, it is finished. It is ancient? But you are . . . (to devotee) Do you have the photographs? Don't think so. Some slides somewhere. But that is an old shrine. It is not a new establishment. *Yes. No, formerly I was staying. I have got my place there also, one of the oldest temple, Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Rādhā-Dāmodara. It was . . . this temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. There are seven important temples: Govindajī's temple, Madana-Mohana, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Rādhā-Ramaṇa and . . . Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. *Rādhā*-Giridhārī. Not Giridhārī. That is later. *Rādhā*-Gopīnātha. *Gopīnātha, yes. So Gopīnātha temple, Madana-Mohana temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Śyāmasundara and Gokulānanda, Gokulānanda. These are old seven temples. Later on, other big, big temples, Raṅganātha temple and Gaekwar temple, like that, Jaipur temple, they came into existence. But there are five thousand temples in Vṛndāvana's city, municipal area. Practically each house is a temple. In every house there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and being worshiped by some devotees. The Ārya-samājī movement . . . you know something about Ārya-samāja? Yes. Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody . . . Even now, nowadays, now they are . . . *No, their influence is gone, Ārya*-samāja. *No, I mean the Ārya*-samāja is no more very active now. They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. How long will you stay in Paris? I am going on Sunday morning. To Frankfurt. Yes. And then you stay a little longer. I will stay there one week, and then, on the 23rd . . . 26th. No, 23rd. June 23rd we fly to Sydney. We stop in Bombay one day. It will be very hot now in Bombay. Now it is . . . might be raining. Yes, it might be raining. Because from 10th June monsoon begins. Bombay is not too hot as Vṛndāvana, as Vṛndāvana. On account of the seashore. Ah. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Vṛndāvana is very hot. If you go back to India, you can . . . you are welcome to stay in our temples. In Vṛndāvana. In Vṛndāvana. We have Māyāpur, near Navadvīpa. And we also purchased some very nice land outside of Bombay, Juhu. Yes, I know. Hyderabad and Calcutta. In Delhi also, we have a nice center there. What part is it in? It's in West End. It is very close to the airport. And in Calcutta? Yes. Near Park Street, Camac Street. Camac Street I know. By Hindi High School. Very nice, old . . . it was called the Rai Castle. It used to be occupied by some governors. (devotee gives the professor some prasādam ) Thank you very much. Just a little. Śrīla Prabhupāda, during that time of the Naxalites you had mentioned that after that program, you said due to the effects of our program, it stopped all that Naxalite movement. Because very shortly after we had that pandal in the Maidan, the whole Naxalite movement was finished. You said due to that, because we purified the atmosphere . . . That's a fact. . . . with chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The government could do nothing. The police were helpless. And the festival in Sydney will take a long time? Sydney festival is for how many days? I think it's just for one day. On the 29th. *One day, 29th of June. Ratha*-yātrā festival, like in Jagannātha Purī. Today it is better here, little warmer. These days were unusually cool for this time of year. How are you feeling? When we went to visit you in your office, it wasn't sure whether you could come, because you were not feeling very well. I am not very well, no. What is your age? I got cold. No, age. Oh, I shall be seventy after three weeks. *Oh. I am also seventy*-eight. But your health is better than me. You have got your natural teeth? Yes. Oh, then very good. (laughter) This is a nice . . . Yes, this place is nice. Nice view. Not too noisy. I wonder how? Because you are on the small street. Tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving conference at Salle Pleyel. Yes, I know. Tonight. I have seen. This? This is a picture. I do not know wherefrom they have collected. (laughter) It is from Yogeśvara. It is supposed that the gopīs are looking to the picture of Kṛṣṇa, is it not? Yes. Very likely. But this picture also appears to be searching out Aniruddha. Uṣā. Uṣā, yes. Citralekhā Yes, that's right. She showed her a picture. Because she had never seen Aniruddha. She saw only in dream. So her friend Citralekhā showed. She showed that, "Find out whom you dreamed." Then she pointed out. I remember that. In the . . . Yes, in the Bhāgavata . I could not recognize from this . . . *So immediately she brought from Dvārakā*-dhāma palace direct to the palace of Uṣā. Vyom . . . what is called, the asura ? What is his name? Bhaumāsura. Bhaumāsura. Bāṇāsura, Bāṇāsura. The picture, where is that picture, find out. Bāṇāsura. Bāṇāsura was appreciating, "Oh, very nice couple." But he had to challenge, "Why you have entered my palace and talking with my unmarried girl?" Yes. This is the *Kṛṣṇa Book* that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written. It is a summary of the Tenth Canto. And all these paintings, these are done by our artists in New York. (pause) I'm afraid I should go now. Yes. Monsieur Lacombe has a course. Not a course but a meeting. And as the traffic is rather thick now, it is better to not to take a chance. I should not be late. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . on a book. It is accepted as being authentic. All the universities use his texts. And he has a big office in the Sorbonne. The Sorbonne is the most famous French university. He is a big man. Actually, it's not famous—it's infamous. Hmm? No? Actually, they're not famous; they're infamous No, why infamous? They are famous. Why do you say infamous? Well, I thought fame only referred to devotee. Huh? I thought fame was to be referred to . . . for devotee. That is your sentiment. But practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous. I just saw that . . . maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent." Oh, ācchā ? They said he was found innocent. Who is? President Nixon In the court? Yes. Because . . . you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught . . . Prabhupāda knows about the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By a court? Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign, making secret tape recordings against the other party. He did? Yes. And still he is innocent? Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the Republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the Democrats, and had spies and everything, in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men, and they were all fired. So that is not bad, because in politics you have to do that. (laughter) Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault? But only he got caught. And all of his men quit. No, no. Suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies, so I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not . . . everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am. They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things. Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on. According to the American government it is illegal to . . . each person has his own plans, and it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent. Court says. The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said: "I didn't know anything about it." He says: "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them." Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy? No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. Just like during any war they always . . . *Politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin*-brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that . . . Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there were some misunderstanding in chess playing, that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas , these things are not uncommon. But isn't that not good, because the, like, politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public that, "When I am elected, I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many . . . they pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are . . . I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the . . . Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding. Hmm. Because we will also have to do that. If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana . You understand Bengali? No. That "When you are going to dance . . . a girl, or a lady, is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana , became little ashamed. So "You are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground. But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying: "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals . . . just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying: "How can these peoples be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life?" That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that, "They cannot be leader," then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that, "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it. Therefore we must cheat. *Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that, "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously, because I know, "I am also thief." (chuckles) So, but this appeal, that does not appeal because, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that, "He is thief. He cannot be trusted," then he knows that, "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Chore chore mastuto bhāi. This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that, "We all are thieves, all cousin*-brothers; so why this man should be only accused?" Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves. But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand, because he is also vicious. Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa, during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said: "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā the elephant, he said the elephant . . . Yes, that was a tactics. So . . . And also when Karṇa . . . Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot. The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character, that people can see that "Here is a ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics . . . they are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, the people. So when you point out that, "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said: "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family member, they scrutinizingly studying that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?" Heaven is where all my friends are. So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty. Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming . . . the same thing, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." That is exactly what people are saying now. They say: "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest, they have too." We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places; he could not find out. First of all he gave him four places that, "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles that, "What is wrong there?" It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find a spiritual atmosphere. *Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that, "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma. Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life: illicit sex, intoxication . . . he was first*-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left. Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said: "Swāmījī will not be successful, because he does not allow free love in his movement." That's it. He says: "That is why I had to leave, because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University. That Neil. Yeah, Neil. Oh. And he told me that, "Swāmījī will not be successful in his movement, because he will not allow free love." I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple. No, he cannot give up these bad habits. You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. Hmm? You said that at the meeting, the conference in Geneva, that no one has died from giving up smoking or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do. *No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man*-to-man marriage. Most unnatural. *Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church, so then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man*-to-man marriage. Just see. They compromise just to keep their followers. It's a matter of money. And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the Church? (laughs) There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God. Because the Church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian Church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there? I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not . . . they were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out. That is going on everywhere. And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it. He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him. That once I met a little old lady on the streets of Denver when I was distributing books. Old lady. Very old. She was walking down the street. She was all bent over. And she asked me what I was doing, and I showed her our magazine and explained that we were teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and she said: "Oh, is this yoga ? I remember way back when Vivekananda came here. Have you ever heard of him?" So we began talking about Vivekananda. She said that she was there when he made his tour. She was in Denver when he made his tour of the United States, and that he stopped there for one meeting and lectured. And she went there to see that meeting, but she said that all in all she was disgusted with him because he was so much attracted to the women. She said that he was victimized by the women. They were all trying to get him, and she said so when he went back to India he was a broken man. Yes, she (he) took with him three women. One of them was Sister Nivedita. Also you told us in India about Aurobindo and Ramakrishna. Aurobindo went also. Aurobindo, when that French woman came, he also fell to her, but just to cover it up he has called her "Mother," because in India, when you call someone "Mother . . ." No, everyone knows he (she) is mother and he is father. Yeah, right. And they don't think . . . there is no question of sex. When they think of mother and father, they don't think of these things. Also with Ramakrishna. He also had his divine mother. You told us a story in Calcutta that he was very debauched. In a village he used to chase the young women. And his brother actually made him famous. It is very difficult to . . . not to be victimized by woman. It is very difficult. Unless you are victimized by Kṛṣṇa first. Yes. One who is, I mean, what is called, captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, then he is not victimized. *Madana*-mohana. Madana-dāhana and Madana-mohana . Unless one is captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, he will be troubled by the arrows of the Cupid. Madana-dāhana. The Cupid is known, he has got arrow. If he pierces, then he becomes victim. You didn't find it necessary to enter into any kind of discussion with this French professor just now. There was no real discussion of philosophy. I was wondering why that didn't happen. He did not raise any question. And he is simply translator. He has no philosophy. I asked him, "Which philosophy you are . . .?" So "I make comparative study." I think he did not like to enter into philosophical . . . is it not? Hmm. Most of these gentlemen who come here, when they see you and begin talking with you, like you said, they show their ignorance when they begin to speak. So they prefer not to speak. They always make some excuse that they have an appointment, because they know that if they speak, they will be in real trouble. Yes. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A foolish man is very nice as long as he does not speak. As soon as he will speak, his foolishness will be captured." So therefore, sometimes they do not like to talk. Remain as a nice man, (laughs) without being discovered. I think maybe the first gentleman who was here, who said . . . he was talking about experiencing God. He says: "Actually I experienced God, but actually God is beyond my experience." You gave him such a hard time that I think he must have made phone calls to all these other men, "Be careful of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is very dangerous." (laughter) I told him that, "You have no experience." He turned so red when you said: "But how were you saying you are having experience, and you just said God is beyond your experience?" And then he says: "I never said that. You put those words into my mouth." I whispered in his ear, "We have it on tape. We will play it back for you." (laughter) *Oh*-ho. We have got Kṛṣṇa. We are not afraid in challenging anyone. I believe on that formula. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). I believe that verse very strongly, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be within this list: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . That's all. I have explained that verse little elaborately. Read it. It is very interesting. Where is Satsvarūpa? He is in the other room. Would you like him to come in? "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *"It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā that simply by surrendering oneself unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, one can surmount the stringent laws of material nature. At this point a question arises. How is it that educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the leaders of ordinary men do not surrender unto the lotus . . . (break) . . . Manu, Vyāsa, Devala, Asita, Janaka, Prahlāda, Bali, and later on, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Śrī Caitanya and many others who are faithful philosophers, politicians, educators and scientists, etc., surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers, scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord. They have no idea of God. They simply manufacture their own worldly plans and consequently complicate the problems of material . . ." Everyone comes, they say: "Why people are suffering?" They are concerned with the people suffering. Actually not. That is a plea only, as if he has taken the task of minimizing the suffering of humanity. He poses himself as very philanthropist. Actually, he cannot do anything. *"Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic plan*-makers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina , or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic plan-maker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic plan-maker is called duṣkṛtina , which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction . . ." Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything—they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their . . . they have come. People come to see Paris just for that . . . what is that theater? Folies Bergere. Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act . . . nobody goes to . . . beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina . Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on, just like we are trying to do: take prasādam , worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches. But there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina . They have got merit to construct very nice, wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then? (reading) "In the *Gītā* it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object. But still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas , or miscreants, are of four different patterns as outlined below. *1. The mūḍhas : those who are grossly foolish like hard*-working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma , action, is meant for yajña , sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas , material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving Mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources." Generally, we see now, especially in the Western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany? Amsterdam is the same way. Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes. It is the center. *This is very prominent in the Western country, which we are asking that no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable. They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for. Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. (aside) All right, keep it. Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even they can . . . That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised. We don't have a very good reputation in India? Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava. No, he means the Western people themselves. "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that. They think that . . . they won't allow even a Westerner to marry their daughter, because the Westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry with the brahmacārīs , the American brahmacārīs , but the parents would not allow because they said: "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the Westerners, that they . . . the life is so fast. Another brahmacārī saved. (laughs) One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy? There's that boy in Bombay, he married one Indian girl. He is staying. *Jagat*-puruṣa. He has not left as yet. But he can leave any moment. (laughs) No. He is not American; he is devotee. Therefore he is reliable. Hmm. (pause) Hmm. We have to arrange a few things. What is the next program? Is there any program? A big hall meeting. Today? Tonight. What time? Eight o'clock. You will be speaking around 8:30. All right. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1974, Paris *(Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto, Kali*-yuga) *The democracy also is described, in Kali*-yuga. Eleventh Canto? In Twelfth Canto. (pause) (break) . . . it is stated: "Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan . . . "The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see. That's Paris. *Anywhere. In Calcutta recently it was dangerous to go out because the next . . . you do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a . . . I was guest in our Life Member's. Sitting in morning, at ten o'clock. "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the back side. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) . . . about so*-called saintly persons, they are tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ : "The so-called yogīs , they'll live in the town." (chuckles) Actually, the yogīs have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in . . . just like the other . . . he's living in Paris City, and he's a yogī . This is all from the Twelfth Canto? *Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma*-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ : "And the sannyāsīs , they'll be too much greedy about money." Just see. Yes. Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power, the wife . . . the divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Hmm. Here it is: *"In the Kali*-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa ," you see? I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's . . . what is that? Salvation Army. No, no, no. The Lions . . . Lion's Club? Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street. They call them "flop houses." *Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna . Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking—milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana , sleeping, or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana , and vyavāya , sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna . I have seen in New York, they have no . . . in a Hamburg, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna . So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ , "and dress," hīnāḥ , "being devoid of all these things," piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti , "they will be just like," what is called, "urchins." Piśācī . These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort, and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca . What is the English? Ghost? *Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghostlike. Hīnāḥ piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ : "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ , people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then? *In the Kali*-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only, he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cent. Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api . The guests are here. There are many guests here to see you. Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents." To old parents? Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is . . . he's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransard. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew, and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually. Oh, you live in India? Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry. Pondicherry? Yes. Oh, Aurobindo's place. Yes, I have been there a long time. And she was studying with Monsieur Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya . . . Hmm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also Monsieur Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together. So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is . . . And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransard asked me was, "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person." So you can translate in French so that they can understand. At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God. What? Christians, they cannot say that God is imperson. Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person, how the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said: "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then he's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then . . . the Christians pray in the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (Jyotirmayī translates Prabhupāda's words throughout) (French) So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is . . . we have a personal relationship with God. Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angle of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; *and Paramātmā, all*-pervading, localized; and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal; the sun globe, localized; *and the sun*-god, person. (break) (French) He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything. *Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta*-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there . . . in the Bible also there is, "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma : "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā : the resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Brahmaṇaḥ aham . . . "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal." Purport. "The constitution of Brahman . . ." Oh. Oh. You have to explain. I'll get another. In the meantime, we can translate from here. (French) He's asking when . . . how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures. Eh? He's asking how old are the . . . How old are the *Vedas* ? *Vedas* ? These Vedic scriptures we are reading, how old are they, he's asking. *They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye. (aside) Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Find out this verse. Now who will translate? You, one by one line, the translation you speak. *Okay. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, all*-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā . . ." And this is Vedic knowledge. ". . . who is the first created living being." You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud banging in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right. *Oh, it's in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Aham . . .? Aham ādir hi devānām. And the Bible it is said: "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge. Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ : "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin, for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." You said also in the Bible it is said: "There is the word." That word, sound, is the *Vedas* . So before creation, *Vedas* were there. So you cannot find out the history of *Vedas* . You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, *Vedas* were there. (French) He says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the *Vedas* . He says there are still distinctions. Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect—the later edition or the original. (French along with other guests) You can translate? They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning, everything together. (French) He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the *Vedas* , the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. (French) He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the *Vedas* , but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences. What is that? (French) For example, in that chapter it also says that the word of God became flesh, and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ. But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. (French) They say . . . they accept . . . they think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also that he was part of this material world. No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. (French, along with others) He says that they had a human body, he had a material body. That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. (French) A material body, how there can be resurrection? If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French with lady guest) Is that all right? They said it is by the acintya power of God. These, these rascals, they thought that Jesus had a material body, "Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body. Bewildered them? Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that." That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. That was their punishment. (French) So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we . . . But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain . . . What is the reason for his incarnation? You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has . . . that means he has got spiritual body. You . . . Yes, we accept that he got the spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body. Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "O Father." Then why "only son"? We say that the son is . . . Then everyone is son. Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes. If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. By adoption. (laughter) (French) They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption. Adopted son. Yes. So therefore these sons' body and Jesus' body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. (French) Their idea is that yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men. Why he should accept? But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that he was a real man . . . But his death . . . you think that he was died, but he resurrected. But the gospel says that he had died. That's all right. You cannot . . . we accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word. No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Exactly. They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. (French along with others) No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit? No, I don't understand it by hearing it. We have to read it. Na hanyate, does not die; hanyamāne śarīre , apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. (French) So . . . shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death . . . Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead. No. Death and resurrection altogether. There's a resurrection. Yes. Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame . . . Madame Devi? So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is a big part of the Oriental religions. Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir. Kashmir? Yes. Where was this? In a newspaper? Yes. In paper I saw. But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history, because everybody has his own documentation. Yes. So I was very much pleased, because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that . . . here . . . at least, in London I have seen, there are so many churches vacant. (French) He says he was at your conference last night, and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God? That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle . . . (to Jyotirmayī) Explain. (French explanation) Similarly, this huge, gigantic cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? (French) For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our . . . Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1): "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who is the origin of all creation," this is the active principle. There is. So . . . and how He is working? (to Jyotirmayī) You have to explain. (French explanation) In the beginning of *Bhāgavatam* , I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ , cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then . . . of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ . He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. (interrupting translation) That would be impersonal. On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God, and it is being distributed through Brahmā. And He's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. (French) She says that God is known as antaryāmī , the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures? Yes. That is the practice of yoga . (French) I guess if you have the idea of prapati , of surrender . . . Yes. . . . this is a way to God directly. Yes, that is . . . that is the real process. But it is not yoga . It is different from yoga ? *No, it is bhakti*-yoga . Prapati is different. *Prapati is bhakti*-yoga . You take it in bhakti ? *Bhakti , yes. Prapati means bhakti . Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything. When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā , great soul, is very rare to be seen." (French) So she said that in . . . it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot . . . they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God. *Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, ārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada Pañcarātra): "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And nārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim : "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar*-bahiḥ yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And nārādhita . . . nantar-bahiḥ tad yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim , "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. French guests: (French) So they agree totally with what you said. (French) (translating) He said, well, first you said that . . . first we must learn about God, and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first. But unless one . . . we say: "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion . . . religion means . . . (French) What does he say? He says: "But God reveals Himself to us." *Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is . . . that is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present ten senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue: one is talking and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasāda , then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been . . . they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda ." *And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American government spent millions of dollar to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they immediately give up. French guests: (French) They say they are very glad for all of this. Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement, chanting the holy name of God. You don't . . . I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of . . . if you have got any other name, you can chant. Pastors: (French) So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you. Thank you. (French) He was very sad yesterday when there was some people, you know, making noises. Yes, that is the difficulty. They are . . . gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins. Becoming? Urchins. Very degraded. (French) That I was discussing from *Bhāgavatam* , how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. (French) He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people, who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing . . . Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. That's the point. (French) Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted. So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers. From? From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said: "Thou shall not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. (French) What did he say? He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night. Oh, yes. There was . . . Yes, they stayed until midnight. There was . . . the total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock. Ācchā ? Twelve o'clock. Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. (French) He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss. *Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just consider and then give your judgment after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra : "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra : "If you consider it with logic and judgment, then you'll find it is sublime." *So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad*-gītā , cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason. Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said: "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was a word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. (break) Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say that you can't chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material. That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation. Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun or moon . . . Yes. . . . because the body of God is giving off light. No, the residents also, they are bright. Yes, illuminating. Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. (French) They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they have to take . . . Ācchā ? One hour we have passed? (laughter) Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. (to incoming guest) Come on. Bring the chair so that she can sit. (first batch of guests leave) I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Huh? I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . I do not know. What is that? He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ ?" No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some . . . (French) She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death. *Yes. So as you prepare yourself . . . because . . . just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. (Pṛthu*-putra translates throughout) (to man) Do you understand English? I'm American. Oh, that's nice. (French) She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts. Thoughts. She asks, she says: "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions." Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. (French) She says: "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action, because the thoughts are some . . . of some . . ." "The thoughts begin the action." "The thoughts begins the action, determine the actions." Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture. (French) "Do you think that in the future is going to be all religious movements together?" "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group?" There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God, and we should be obedient to God. This is religion. (French) She says: "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?" No, there is no special path. There is only one path that, "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you . . . they accept this? I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go . . . No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"? My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God. Yes. If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it . . . No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all. God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God. Simply you understand. I understand the light. No, no, you understand. You say: "God is word." That means you understand God. No. Then why do you say: "God is word"? I say God cannot be explained with words. No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that? Because I . . . If you do not know the subject matter . . . you say that, "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God? I do not speak of God. No, you are speaking that, "God is word." You say: "God is word"? No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain. But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things? No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word . . . That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept. It is light. I speak of the light. Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know . . . sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know. No, no, no. Yes. Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light. If you wish to call it "God . . ." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once, and once only . . . Now, now, you say that God is light. . . . so we'll understand. Do you say, "God is light"? Yes. Then you know God. Then why do you say: "God cannot be known"? I say that "God" is a word. You say "light" or "word." What is the . . . what is the definite . . . I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me. That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God. I feel the light here. Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know . . . I feel the light here. Yes, anywhere. Light is here also. And that's all there is. That is . . . that is all right. Light is here also, not only . . . Light is here. Light is this table. Yes. Yes. Light is this floor. Light is everything. So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light. Because for me, "God" is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word? I think you've been defeated. No, no, I don't think I've been defeated. Yes. And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand . . . No, no, you . . . you fix up one thing. You say: "God is light." That word "light" is God? Or that . . . I do not say God is light. Yes, you said that. I say there is only light. I say there is only light. Only light? Yes. That is God. I do not speak of God, I speak of light. Then you do not know God. You accept one position. I say there is light. That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God. What is God? Explain to me what is God. (aside) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time. If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it. Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please. He cannot explain to me. Then you go away. Please. What can I do? It's as you wish. I cannot waste. If you cannot explain to me what is God . . . I speak of light, so . . . But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything. I just speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said. You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come. Oh, I'll come. (leaves) Why was he brought in in the first place? Anyway, we can continue, but . . . (French) "Is there some . . . any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" *Yes. That I explained, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa , they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot. (French) She says that . . . Degree of covering. "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?" Covered means with some dirty things. That's all. By past karma . Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that. (French) She asks if by repeating the mantra , the name of God, it has more . . . You become purified. Purified. You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. (French) She says: "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God a day." Per day. Every day. Hmm. Yes. (French) She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you. Thank you very much. Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1974, Paris *(Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto, Kali*-yuga) *The democracy also is described, in Kali*-yuga. Eleventh Canto? In Twelfth Canto. (pause) (break) . . . it is stated: "Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan . . . "The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see. That's Paris. *Anywhere. In Calcutta recently it was dangerous to go out because the next . . . you do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a . . . I was guest in our Life Member's. Sitting in morning, at ten o'clock. "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the back side. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) . . . about so*-called saintly persons, they are tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ : "The so-called yogīs , they'll live in the town." (chuckles) Actually, the yogīs have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in . . . just like the other . . . he's living in Paris City, and he's a yogī . This is all from the Twelfth Canto? *Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma*-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ : "And the sannyāsīs , they'll be too much greedy about money." Just see. Yes. Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power, the wife . . . the divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Hmm. Here it is: *"In the Kali*-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa ," you see? I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's . . . what is that? Salvation Army. No, no, no. The Lions . . . Lion's Club? Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street. They call them "flop houses." *Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna . Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking—milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana , sleeping, or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana , and vyavāya , sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna . I have seen in New York, they have no . . . in a Hamburg, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna . So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ , "and dress," hīnāḥ , "being devoid of all these things," piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti , "they will be just like," what is called, "urchins." Piśācī . These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort, and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca . What is the English? Ghost? *Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghostlike. Hīnāḥ piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ : "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ , people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then? *In the Kali*-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only, he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cent. Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api . The guests are here. There are many guests here to see you. Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents." To old parents? Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is . . . he's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransard. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew, and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually. Oh, you live in India? Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry. Pondicherry? Yes. Oh, Aurobindo's place. Yes, I have been there a long time. And she was studying with Monsieur Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya . . . Hmm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also Monsieur Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together. So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is . . . And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransard asked me was, "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person." So you can translate in French so that they can understand. At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God. What? Christians, they cannot say that God is imperson. Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person, how the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said: "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then he's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then . . . the Christians pray in the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (Jyotirmayī translates Prabhupāda's words throughout) (French) So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is . . . we have a personal relationship with God. Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angle of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; *and Paramātmā, all*-pervading, localized; and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal; the sun globe, localized; *and the sun*-god, person. (break) (French) He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything. *Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta*-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there . . . in the Bible also there is, "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma : "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā : the resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Brahmaṇaḥ aham . . . "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal." Purport. "The constitution of Brahman . . ." Oh. Oh. You have to explain. I'll get another. In the meantime, we can translate from here. (French) He's asking when . . . how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures. Eh? He's asking how old are the . . . How old are the *Vedas* ? *Vedas* ? These Vedic scriptures we are reading, how old are they, he's asking. *They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye. (aside) Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Find out this verse. Now who will translate? You, one by one line, the translation you speak. *Okay. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, all*-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā . . ." And this is Vedic knowledge. ". . . who is the first created living being." You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud banging in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right. *Oh, it's in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Aham . . .? Aham ādir hi devānām. And the Bible it is said: "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge. Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ : "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin, for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." You said also in the Bible it is said: "There is the word." That word, sound, is the *Vedas* . So before creation, *Vedas* were there. So you cannot find out the history of *Vedas* . You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, *Vedas* were there. (French) He says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the *Vedas* . He says there are still distinctions. Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect—the later edition or the original. (French along with other guests) You can translate? They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning, everything together. (French) He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the *Vedas* , the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. (French) He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the *Vedas* , but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences. What is that? (French) For example, in that chapter it also says that the word of God became flesh, and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ. But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. (French) They say . . . they accept . . . they think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also that he was part of this material world. No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. (French, along with others) He says that they had a human body, he had a material body. That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. (French) A material body, how there can be resurrection? If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French with lady guest) Is that all right? They said it is by the acintya power of God. These, these rascals, they thought that Jesus had a material body, "Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body. Bewildered them? Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that." That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. That was their punishment. (French) So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we . . . But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain . . . What is the reason for his incarnation? You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has . . . that means he has got spiritual body. You . . . Yes, we accept that he got the spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body. Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "O Father." Then why "only son"? We say that the son is . . . Then everyone is son. Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes. If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. By adoption. (laughter) (French) They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption. Adopted son. Yes. So therefore these sons' body and Jesus' body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. (French) Their idea is that yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men. Why he should accept? But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that he was a real man . . . But his death . . . you think that he was died, but he resurrected. But the gospel says that he had died. That's all right. You cannot . . . we accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word. No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Exactly. They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. (French along with others) No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit? No, I don't understand it by hearing it. We have to read it. Na hanyate, does not die; hanyamāne śarīre , apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. (French) So . . . shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death . . . Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead. No. Death and resurrection altogether. There's a resurrection. Yes. Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame . . . Madame Devi? So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is a big part of the Oriental religions. Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir. Kashmir? Yes. Where was this? In a newspaper? Yes. In paper I saw. But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history, because everybody has his own documentation. Yes. So I was very much pleased, because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that . . . here . . . at least, in London I have seen, there are so many churches vacant. (French) He says he was at your conference last night, and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God? That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle . . . (to Jyotirmayī) Explain. (French explanation) Similarly, this huge, gigantic cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? (French) For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our . . . Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1): "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who is the origin of all creation," this is the active principle. There is. So . . . and how He is working? (to Jyotirmayī) You have to explain. (French explanation) In the beginning of *Bhāgavatam* , I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ , cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then . . . of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ . He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. (interrupting translation) That would be impersonal. On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God, and it is being distributed through Brahmā. And He's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. (French) She says that God is known as antaryāmī , the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures? Yes. That is the practice of yoga . (French) I guess if you have the idea of prapati , of surrender . . . Yes. . . . this is a way to God directly. Yes, that is . . . that is the real process. But it is not yoga . It is different from yoga ? *No, it is bhakti*-yoga . Prapati is different. *Prapati is bhakti*-yoga . You take it in bhakti ? *Bhakti , yes. Prapati means bhakti . Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything. When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā , great soul, is very rare to be seen." (French) So she said that in . . . it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot . . . they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God. *Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, ārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada Pañcarātra): "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And nārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim : "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar*-bahiḥ yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And nārādhita . . . nantar-bahiḥ tad yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim , "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. French guests: (French) So they agree totally with what you said. (French) (translating) He said, well, first you said that . . . first we must learn about God, and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first. But unless one . . . we say: "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion . . . religion means . . . (French) What does he say? He says: "But God reveals Himself to us." *Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is . . . that is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present ten senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue: one is talking and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasāda , then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been . . . they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda ." *And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American government spent millions of dollar to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they immediately give up. French guests: (French) They say they are very glad for all of this. Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement, chanting the holy name of God. You don't . . . I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of . . . if you have got any other name, you can chant. Pastors: (French) So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you. Thank you. (French) He was very sad yesterday when there was some people, you know, making noises. Yes, that is the difficulty. They are . . . gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins. Becoming? Urchins. Very degraded. (French) That I was discussing from *Bhāgavatam* , how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. (French) He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people, who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing . . . Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. That's the point. (French) Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted. So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers. From? From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said: "Thou shall not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. (French) What did he say? He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night. Oh, yes. There was . . . Yes, they stayed until midnight. There was . . . the total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock. Ācchā ? Twelve o'clock. Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. (French) He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss. *Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just consider and then give your judgment after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra : "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra : "If you consider it with logic and judgment, then you'll find it is sublime." *So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad*-gītā , cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason. Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said: "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was a word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. (break) Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say that you can't chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material. That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation. Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun or moon . . . Yes. . . . because the body of God is giving off light. No, the residents also, they are bright. Yes, illuminating. Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. (French) They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they have to take . . . Ācchā ? One hour we have passed? (laughter) Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. (to incoming guest) Come on. Bring the chair so that she can sit. (first batch of guests leave) I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Huh? I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . I do not know. What is that? He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ ?" No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some . . . (French) She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death. *Yes. So as you prepare yourself . . . because . . . just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. (Pṛthu*-putra translates throughout) (to man) Do you understand English? I'm American. Oh, that's nice. (French) She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts. Thoughts. She asks, she says: "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions." Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. (French) She says: "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action, because the thoughts are some . . . of some . . ." "The thoughts begin the action." "The thoughts begins the action, determine the actions." Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture. (French) "Do you think that in the future is going to be all religious movements together?" "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group?" There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God, and we should be obedient to God. This is religion. (French) She says: "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?" No, there is no special path. There is only one path that, "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you . . . they accept this? I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go . . . No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"? My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God. Yes. If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it . . . No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all. God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God. Simply you understand. I understand the light. No, no, you understand. You say: "God is word." That means you understand God. No. Then why do you say: "God is word"? I say God cannot be explained with words. No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that? Because I . . . If you do not know the subject matter . . . you say that, "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God? I do not speak of God. No, you are speaking that, "God is word." You say: "God is word"? No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain. But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things? No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word . . . That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept. It is light. I speak of the light. Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know . . . sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know. No, no, no. Yes. Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light. If you wish to call it "God . . ." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once, and once only . . . Now, now, you say that God is light. . . . so we'll understand. Do you say, "God is light"? Yes. Then you know God. Then why do you say: "God cannot be known"? I say that "God" is a word. You say "light" or "word." What is the . . . what is the definite . . . I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me. That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God. I feel the light here. Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know . . . I feel the light here. Yes, anywhere. Light is here also. And that's all there is. That is . . . that is all right. Light is here also, not only . . . Light is here. Light is this table. Yes. Yes. Light is this floor. Light is everything. So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light. Because for me, "God" is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word? I think you've been defeated. No, no, I don't think I've been defeated. Yes. And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand . . . No, no, you . . . you fix up one thing. You say: "God is light." That word "light" is God? Or that . . . I do not say God is light. Yes, you said that. I say there is only light. I say there is only light. Only light? Yes. That is God. I do not speak of God, I speak of light. Then you do not know God. You accept one position. I say there is light. That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God. What is God? Explain to me what is God. (aside) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time. If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it. Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please. He cannot explain to me. Then you go away. Please. What can I do? It's as you wish. I cannot waste. If you cannot explain to me what is God . . . I speak of light, so . . . But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything. I just speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said. You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come. Oh, I'll come. (leaves) Why was he brought in in the first place? Anyway, we can continue, but . . . (French) "Is there some . . . any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" *Yes. That I explained, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa , they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot. (French) She says that . . . Degree of covering. "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?" Covered means with some dirty things. That's all. By past karma . Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that. (French) She asks if by repeating the mantra , the name of God, it has more . . . You become purified. Purified. You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. (French) She says: "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God a day." Per day. Every day. Hmm. Yes. (French) She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you. Thank you very much. Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. (end) Conversation -- June 17, 1974, Germany (Conversation with German Women Philosophers) (translating guest's comments) . . . that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be . . . she has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that. After death? Yes. So everyone will get that peace? (translated into German throughout) (German) (break). She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace. The cats and dogs? Everyone? The same? (German) (break) . . . different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on. So what is that difference? (break) Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have . . . animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts. So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose . . . just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? (break) She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and . . . But the activity is the same: eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? (German) So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spiritual, this. She says that is . . . No, no. I think the . . . when a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (break) So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the . . . but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence. Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence? Yes. But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (break) . . . such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced: the dog or the man? (German) Yes, she admits that the man, by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do that, she says. No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (break) So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and . . . So is that very good intelligence? (German) So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She's, this intelligence is . . . Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? (German) (break) . . . like to have more, Prabhupāda? No. She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he actually misuses his intelligence. But God has given intelligence for this bad work? (German) She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind. Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now, suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? (German) She says that this is the evil in mankind. *Therefore the conclusion is that the so*-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. German ladies: (German) And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? (break) She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men. Bad men also will get peace? (German) Yes. This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see how nonsense philosophers they are. (German) She says that this is not, this . . . she's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men. She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) (German) So this lady's point is, where shall the bad man go after death? He'll become a dog. (German) She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell. *He may not believe, but hell is there. If . . . (aside) You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ ( BG 14.18). Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said: "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ . What is it? Ūrdhvam . And she is a philosopher? (German) She says she is a primitive, simple man. But still not willing to go to hell. (aside) You found? Yes. Read it. *Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ . . . *Sattva*-sthāḥ. "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets, those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." Just . . . translator. Page 666 . . . well, it's 14.18. (devotee translates into German) (break) . . . where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where this hellish worlds are? They're, they are different planets. (German) She wants to know how we know this. From the books. (break) (German) (break) So she feels . . . it seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to . . . to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them. Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus' order. (break) . . . she saying. Jesus has given some instruction or not? (German) So he says that Jesus has given some directions, and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves, and that we should not do any harm to him. But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell. Is it not? Satsvarūpa? I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father. Yes. (German) Yes, yes. She says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teaching, like the Jesus said. Eternally hellish life. Yes. So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? (German) (break) She makes no . . . she said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much, because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus . . . this was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus . . . I don't follow. What is that? Hmm? She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus. Who? This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did, because he was long ago. Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus? (German) (break) . . . like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give . . . That means everyone has rejected Jesus. (German) (break) . . . that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly. Hmm? She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly. Literally. Literally. Hmm? I do not follow. That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally, because who knows. Then why do you quote? (break) So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true. But if you . . . if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (break) . . . new truth. (German) So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes . . . So there is no truth. It is all hodgepodge. (German) Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what . . . So it is a hodgepodge. (laughter) (German) So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles. Hmm? She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements . . . Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally. Yeah. Then what is the use of taking Bible? (German) (break) . . . that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible. This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (break) (end) Conversation -- June 17, 1974, Germany (Conversation with German Women Philosophers) (translating guest's comments) . . . that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be . . . she has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that. After death? Yes. So everyone will get that peace? (translated into German throughout) (German) (break). She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace. The cats and dogs? Everyone? The same? (German) (break) . . . different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on. So what is that difference? (break) Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have . . . animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts. So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose . . . just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? (break) She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and . . . But the activity is the same: eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? (German) So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spiritual, this. She says that is . . . No, no. I think the . . . when a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (break) So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the . . . but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence. Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence? Yes. But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (break) . . . such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced: the dog or the man? (German) Yes, she admits that the man, by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do that, she says. No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (break) So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and . . . So is that very good intelligence? (German) So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She's, this intelligence is . . . Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? (German) (break) . . . like to have more, Prabhupāda? No. She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he actually misuses his intelligence. But God has given intelligence for this bad work? (German) She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind. Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now, suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? (German) She says that this is the evil in mankind. *Therefore the conclusion is that the so*-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. German ladies: (German) And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? (break) She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men. Bad men also will get peace? (German) Yes. This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see how nonsense philosophers they are. (German) She says that this is not, this . . . she's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men. She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) (German) So this lady's point is, where shall the bad man go after death? He'll become a dog. (German) She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell. *He may not believe, but hell is there. If . . . (aside) You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ ( BG 14.18). Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said: "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ . What is it? Ūrdhvam . And she is a philosopher? (German) She says she is a primitive, simple man. But still not willing to go to hell. (aside) You found? Yes. Read it. *Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ . . . *Sattva*-sthāḥ. "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets, those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." Just . . . translator. Page 666 . . . well, it's 14.18. (devotee translates into German) (break) . . . where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where this hellish worlds are? They're, they are different planets. (German) She wants to know how we know this. From the books. (break) (German) (break) So she feels . . . it seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to . . . to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them. Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus' order. (break) . . . she saying. Jesus has given some instruction or not? (German) So he says that Jesus has given some directions, and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves, and that we should not do any harm to him. But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell. Is it not? Satsvarūpa? I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father. Yes. (German) Yes, yes. She says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teaching, like the Jesus said. Eternally hellish life. Yes. So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? (German) (break) She makes no . . . she said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much, because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus . . . this was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus . . . I don't follow. What is that? Hmm? She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus. Who? This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did, because he was long ago. Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus? (German) (break) . . . like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give . . . That means everyone has rejected Jesus. (German) (break) . . . that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly. Hmm? She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly. Literally. Literally. Hmm? I do not follow. That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally, because who knows. Then why do you quote? (break) So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true. But if you . . . if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (break) . . . new truth. (German) So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes . . . So there is no truth. It is all hodgepodge. (German) Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what . . . So it is a hodgepodge. (laughter) (German) So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles. Hmm? She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements . . . Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally. Yeah. Then what is the use of taking Bible? (German) (break) . . . that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible. This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (break) (end) Conversation -- June 19, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Professor Durckheim, Dr. P. J. Saher and Professor Porsch) . . . and to write books, and people came, and today we have there what you would call a little āśrama , mostly about fifty, sixty persons living there, coming, going; no patients, just people who try to discover their real self, nothing else. Yes. That's our work we are trying to do. So Absolute Truth is realized in three aspect: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Some realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, others realize the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, and the final realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are cultivating the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So which aspect you are cultivating: the Paramātmā or the impersonal Brahman or the Personality of Godhead? You can't help cultivate all three in the long run. No, all three are one. I beg your pardon? All three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain—somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place—everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India—or everywhere—some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness. As Buddhists do. Buddhists, they, I think, they . . . yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa . Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization. To stop the? Realization. To become zero. Is not that? To become? I didn't understand. Zero. Zero. Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of view of the old ego it's zero, but this zero is everything from . . . (indistinct) . . . from the point of view of the natural ego it's zero and once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. It's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it. Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety; and some, localized Paramātmā; and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man: first of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating in healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa , negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong? You are certainly right. We see the . . . it is a big . . . in our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality. Yes, different it is. The same example as I gave you: in diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception. The dead. Person who is dead. We take this body—dead always. This body is actually dead. Just like this microphone is made of iron. It is iron. When it is working, responding, at that time also it is iron. And when it is out of order, does not work, it is also iron. Similarly, this body is working on account of the living force within. When the living force is out, it is called dead. But actually it is dead always. The living force is the important thing. That is making him alive. Actually, alive or dead, it is dead matter. But the living force is the active principle. That is distinguishing this body as dead or alive. But factually it is dead always. *That is the beginning of instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā : "Arjuna, you are lamenting for this body, but the body is dead." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So unless we know that . . . (aside) Don't make cut-cut . The dead body is not the subject matter of study, either it is in working order or it is in dead order. The subject matter of study is the active principle which makes the dead body moving. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā . (aside) Read that portion. Translation: "The Blessed Lord said, While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." What is your opinion about this? May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter but makes matter alive? That active principle, life, or living soul. Yes, how do you make them . . . How do you teach them? . . . teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel? It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be, "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā . First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is un . . . aware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy. No, that's quite clear. *Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad*-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking, I am asking my student, "Come here," he comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"—he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning. May I ask a question still? It is quite clear for our rational mind: I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, let's say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion. Because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says . . . talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says: "Well, you must make exercises . . ." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom. *No, as I say, the active principle . . . I am also the active principle, that active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham. So 'ham , "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self*-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54): "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly," prasannātmā . He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : "He is equal to everyone—man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54): "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all . . . just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized, because he has understood "What I am." Yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that, "I am part and parcel of God, so my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service. I say, Master, that when you say he knows, you don't speak about this knowledge. Which knowledge? You came already . . . you say: "Believe, and by this know that I am participating in the great divine person." And yet I didn't experience it. *Why not experience? He knows that, "I am that active principle." Everyone knows that, "I am not this body." When I say: "This is my finger," I don't say "I finger." So "I," what "I am"? That realization, self*-realization that, "I am part and parcel of God," so that he knows that, "I am part and parcel of God. So therefore my duty is to serve God." So they are engaged in serving God. *So this serving God, or devotional service, is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) Find out that verse, that: *So unless one is self*-realized, he cannot be engaged in the service of the Supreme Self. Ordinarily, a master and a servant, a servant knows that "I am engaged by the master. He is giving me food, he is giving me shelter—he is giving me everything for his serving." So he is careful in his service. This is a material example. Similarly, self-realization, ultimately, as I told you, that first impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then the yogīs , they realize the localized Paramātmā. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , they observe the Supersoul within himself, and they meditate upon Him. (aside) What is that verse? Translation: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." This is our process. A long way to get there. And the process is going on. The chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, by this process they fully realize that the master, the Supreme Being, and engages himself always. These European, American boy, they are all educated. Not . . . in your country, of course, the young men . . . They are educated too. *Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? (break) "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin A, B, C, D. And why should you kill animals? Why should we give trouble to the others?" This is self*-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same, the body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization. Well, may I put a question, Master? On the way there should be progress, inner progress. How to realize that there is a progress? I would say one thing is very important. There are three sufferings in the world of mankind: fear of annihilation, despair if you are taken by something which is absurd, and loneliness, if you are alone. These three sufferings in the world for the natural being. I realize that you make a decisive step on your inner way when you feel life in the very moment when you have to die, when you feel the great meaning in the very moment when you are just having despair, and when you feel the great love of the person God exactly while you are lonely in the world. And I have realized that we are now in a very decisive moment in the Western world because for the first time in the history of mankind, the Western people, in Europe and the States, start to take seriously certain experiences, inner experiences, where this truth is revealed. In all times, as far as I see, the great condition of the East, they knew about those experiences where death loses its terrifying character and becomes the threshold to some bigger life. And I always see with also my disciples, as soon as they learn to go through some kind of death, they awake on a new level. So I will say if people are in my place and after a week they still sleep very well, then I have made a mistake. About that sleep, just to realize something in overcoming their usual needs, their usual fears, their usual habits, in order to touch inwardly another level, and then suddenly they realize there is some quite different principle at work as they see usually in their natural mind. So that different principle, for a devotee, is already realized. Because a devotee never thinks of this body that, "I am this body." He thinks "I am . . ." ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am spirit soul." So without that realization, there is no question of devotional life. So that is first understood. That instruction is being given by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna that, "You are considering very seriously on this body, but a learned man does not take this body very seriously, either dead or alive." That is the first realization. So everyone in this world, they are concerned with this body, dead or alive. When alive, they take care of the body in so many ways, and when dead they erect big statue upon it. So that realization is this body. When it is alive, very nicely dressed, nicely groomed, nicely everything on account of this body, and when dead, then again the statue, the tomb, that's all, but missing the active principle. He is taking care of this body even after death by erecting very nice memorial, but he has no knowledge where the active principle has lost. That is ignorance. When I was a young man, I was four years in the World War. Four years. *Four years. Forty*-eight months almost in the foremost front. And I was one of the two officers . . . In First World War? First World War? World War I, 1914 to 1918. Yes. Yes. And I was one of the two officers who were not wounded in my regiment. And there I met death again and again. And I saw people just killed next to me. Suddenly it was out. It was just only, as you say, the body without soul. But I realized also, in myself, that when death was near and you had accepted death, accepted to die, then you realized something which has nothing to do whatsoever with death. *Yes. That is self*-realization. So this marked me very much. It's the very beginning of my inner way, these four years of World War. *There is a verse, nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). If one is God-realized soul, he is not afraid of anything. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. So actually, if one is self-realized, he is no more fearful or concerned with the bodily necessities of life. That is liberation. Just like as you mentioned sleeping. Sleeping also, a bodily necessity. When you are tired, you sleep. That is bodily necessity. But it is not spiritually necessary. About the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau : "Conquered over sleeping, eating, mating." That is also one of the symptoms of self-realization. These things are necessities of the body. So the more one is advanced in self-realization, these things will be minimized: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. And gradually it will come to nil, because this is bodily necessities. Self, the active principle, that is different. The active principle, necessity is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. But these are bodily necessities: eating, sleeping, mating. So, so long this body is there, of course, we must eat, we must sleep. That is required. But the more we advance, these necessities diminished. Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Then sleeping will be considered a waste of time. A self-realized man goes to sleep, he thinks that, "I am going to waste so much time, because still I am subjected to the necessities of this body." He regrets. *The progress of self*-realization is a sequence of experiences, isn't it, of inner experiences? Yes. *The progress of self*-realization is a progress of inner experiences. Yes. And I do believe that at the actual moment still, the treasure in the European peoples, the different peoples who went through the war, through concentration camps, through battlefields and bombing nights, are hidden in their hearts certain moments when death was near and they were wounded and nearly torn in pieces. Because they had a certain experience they survived. And again and again, when I give a lecture, I have two or three people waiting, telling me, "Now you just reminded me an experience long ago, ten days ago, two months ago, when I thought I was a little bit crazy, and now I understand it has been the experience, perhaps the most important of my life, on which I should have built my future inner way." And these experiences are still there. And once people understand, they don't need a war and a battleship and a concentration camp and a bombing night to take serious certain inner experiences when they are suddenly are touched by this divine reality, and they suddenly feel that this bodily existence is not lasting at all. That's it. That we can experience every night. Yes, exactly. *When you dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So, and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such*-and-such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually, I am different from the mind. And that is self-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). (aside) Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ . That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think. Translation: "The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he, the soul, is even higher than the intelligence." This is description. May I put a question, sir, to the question of time, the meaning of time? I think there are two ways to look at time and to look at eternity. Time is eternal. Time is eternal, but we calculate time, past and present and future, according to my temporary material existence. Just like a small ant—the ant's past and present is different from my past and present. Is different from . . .? My past and present. I am a human being. I live for hundred years. So my past and present is different from the ant who lives for, say, a few hours. Is different from? From the ant, a small living entity. And similarly, Brahmā, his past, present is different because he has done millions and millions of years as one day. So the time is eternal, but according to our condition, occupying the time and space, we calculate past and present and future. Otherwise time itself is eternal. Well, now I question you. You see, talking about eternity, there are two meanings or concepts at the same time. The one is that the finite life is going on infinitely, infinity, millions of year. That is one way to think about eternity. Yes. But there is another one. Eternity means, we say, no beginning, no end. That is eternity. Isn't there also this other one, when, for instance, Christ says: "I am before Abraham was"? This "I am." There is one kind of eternity which has nothing to do with past and future at all, which is beyond past and future. Past and future is concerned with this body. Is concerned with this body. It is concerned, exactly, with this body and with this ego, with regard to which there is a "before" and an "after," an "up" and "down." And if you take away this ego, what's there? What's left? *That is pure ego. Now I am born Indian, say, seventy*-five years ago, or seventy-eight years ago, and I have got this Indian body, I have got this false ego that, "I am Indian, I am this body." This is misconception. That is one way to look at time. But it's not the . . . Time is there, but because I have got this temporary body, I am thinking past, present, future. The temporary body will be vanished. I shall get another temporary body. Then again my begins past and present. So therefore this is called illusion. Time is eternal. It has no beginning, no end, but we transmigrate from one body to another. We are calculating, miscalculating, past, present, future. Yes, time has no beginning and no end. But time in this second sense has nothing to do with beginning and end. It has no end . . . beginning, no end. The beginning and end is of this body. And in relationship with this body, we are calculating past, present, future. But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body. I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become . . . No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man. I am very . . ." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting, "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am śūdra "—so many designation. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity. But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure. The consciousness is covered by impurity, just like your health is covered by disease, and the symptom is fever. But that is a covering. That is not your healthy state. Similarly, my consciousness, when I think that, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," that is impurity. And when he thinks that, "I am neither German, neither American, nor this nor that—I am part and parcel of God," that is pure consciousness. But in order to get there, to feel that one is neither this nor that, one must have suffered by first having thought that one is this or that. That suffering is just like you suffer in the dream. You are attacked by a tiger. There is no tiger. Actually there is no suffering. But on account of ignorance, you are thinking, "The tiger is eating me." Yes, but this is a very good example, because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself. Yes, that experience is also material. Yes, exactly. That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dream and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane. That, it is stated: *So we have to transcend the platform of intelligence also. Then we come to the platform of spiritual realization. That is instructed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) What happened to your eyes? I was cut. How? I was in an automobile accident. Oh. But he's all right. Others also? No it's. It's just a cut here. *So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to real consciousness. That real consciousness is that, "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight because you designated yourself that, "I am German." This is an example that, "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self*-realization. *Just like the Arjuna. Arjuna was put into the ba . . . you have read Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, this Bhagavad-gītā ? Yes. *So he was thinking in terms of designation that, "I am . . . I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin*-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first thing, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , when he understood that, "I am not this body; *I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self*-realization, not for this body. *No.There is only one way to world peace: through self*-realization of those who are responsible. *Yes. Self*-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should understand that, "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany," "This is England," "This is France," "This is India," "This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean" and "This is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding that, "Nothing belongs to us . . ." The United Nation, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground, because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace. *As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the high priest, now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu after the other one. Only one resisted, in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said: "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword master asked him—he was a realized man—"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said: "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said: "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self*-realized man, said: "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met. Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize, that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that. So if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful. *In my work I always feel the great difficulty again and again, sir, and is always there. It's a great difference to believe that you are the son of God and to feel it and to experience it. As long it's only a belief, it's well*-meaning doing. How to prepare the conditions by which disciples might feel it? That's all of my daily work. Yes. Just like . . . it is very simple thing. Just like if I say . . . suppose you have not seen your father—you are posthumous child—but you must believe that there is father. Without father there is no possibility of my existence. That is belief. And in the Christian . . . Experience it. *This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily . . . father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this: *Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "I am the seed*-giving father of all living entities in different forms of life." There is one difficulty in the Western part of the world which might not be so great in the Eastern part. If . . . I realize in Japan, when they talk about father and mother, especially also mother, it was all something to be loved, to be grateful, to submit. In our countries now, the father is generally the one who does not understand anymore his son, and the son has to get rid of his body father in order to be able to realize himself. So very often the main obstacle in our youth is the image of mother and father, because they have never understood their children. So the word father for many people in the Western part of the world . . . Misunderstood. Is a misunder . . . is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today. I have to very much . . . It is not religion; it is fact. It is not . . . religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son . . . without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. Yes. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son. Or more son. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment. It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says: "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am." *Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that . . . the Christians, so*-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say: "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that, "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that, "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact. He is the supreme father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. (aside) Read that śloka . *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Just see. Wonderful. *Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated, in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self*-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facilities to the human being, not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. "National" means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of national. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all . . . everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that, "I am this body." But when we understand that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self-realization. And this understanding has to be an experience. Yes, it is experienced, but on account of his foolishness he is thinking otherwise. He knows that, "I am not this body. I am now in this body of an old man, but I was not in this body, say, fifty years ago. Therefore I am not this body, that body or this body. I am different from the body." This is very easy experience. I am existing. I understand that I existed in a baby's body, I existed in a child's body, boy's body. So I have now changed so many bodies. Therefore I am not this body. Just like you dress. You are now in black coat, and next moment you can be in other color. But you are not this coat; *you have changed the coat. Similarly, I have changed the body, but I am not this body. This is self*-realization. First of all let me know that, "I am not this body, I am living within this body." You are not this coat. If I ask you, "Mr. Black Coat" that is my foolishness. You are neither black coat or white coat. And that is self-realization. And yet isn't there difficulty? You can already have understood very well that you are not the body, but as long, for instance, as you have still fear of death, you didn't understand by experience. As soon as you understood by experience, you have no fear of death because you know that you can't die. So experience is received by higher knowledge. Experience means higher knowledge. Just like a child . . . Experience means . . .? Higher knowledge. Higher knowledge. As soon as you have the experience, you get the higher knowledge. Yes. So the more you are highly elevated in knowledge, your experience is perfect. I would like to say the other way around: As more as you are advanced in experience, the more you have higher knowledge. But experience, it may be slow. But higher knowledge you can get immediately. Yes. Like flash. Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . When it's awakening. Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that you are not this body. So instead of my experiencing for years and years that, "I am not this body," we take the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect, and my experience is now received. Yes, I understand. *Therefore Vedic instruction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru . That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . Now, Who is guru ? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru , śrotriyam , who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru . Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru , he is not guru . This is called guru-paramparā , disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our . . . (aside) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. Yes. So I am always inexperienced, because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. He asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone." That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge. You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. *We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because the source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God, and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God, who has come directly from Him, the same. So . . . but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure. Not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him, and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). This is . . . evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside) Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science, as it is, appears to be lost." That's it. Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the Western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom. (chuckles) Yes. You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings. Yes, yes. Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our Western, as you know better than I do, in our Western mankind . . . and they say: "Well, after all . . ." You see, science, they say: "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said: "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me, you have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are. *Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31): "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life." No, nothing. *Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatim . Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ : "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very, quite visible in the Western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā . That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha . The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the . . . They won't move at all, blind . . . No. Therefore they are being frustrated. There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question, which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question. Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end . . . Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna , or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into . . . There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality. Yes. Not only that. The other than . . . lower animals—birds, beast and other—they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating. And eating each other without complex. Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being, we are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have no even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice, nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die; then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense even. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars—war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only . . . without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living, "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that, "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that, "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live, and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cow dung, we have stacked here. I have seen. They are also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. Buddhism, there is no animal killing, although they are now killing animals. But originally Buddha religion means nonviolence. Also Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā . So in no religion unnecessary killing of animal is allowed. Even in Muhammadans, they are also . . . Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted. May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away? No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientist . . . That's what I mean. . . . Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose. The trees have got sensation. So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree . . . No, we don't kill. You take the fruits. We cut it. Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary. For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it. Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra : *That "Those who have no hands"—that means animals—"they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four*-legged." Just like grass has no leg, but it is a food for the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, nunam mahatām tatra , "Then one who is powerful, very powerful . . ." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the . . . that is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. *But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda . So Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me these foodstuff." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra , to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization. Not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy. Yes. There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening. No, let them come here. (break) We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. I see. I have published about fourteen books like this. Incredible. Incredible. What a thing! (guests enter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You can put this side. Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Saher. He is the leader of the Society of Yoga and Integral Philosophical Studies in Germany. Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. (laughter and indistinct background comments) So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. (devotee translates into German for guests) I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment . . . not at the present moment; *always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is . . . (break) . . . then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). That is one. (aside) You serve it out. *So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one: to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self*-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozens. But our only writing is the goal of life: Kṛṣṇa. May I come back once to my question, Master, the relationship between belief and experience? Because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks. No, believe the authority. That is the . . . that is better than experience. Yes. And that is what in our country is . . . I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on. (aside) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief . . . They realize that now belief, which is not faith, has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts. And they don't believe what you tell them; they just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a . . . big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. (to guest) That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so? Yes, it is. *Yes. So thing is that . . . first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas , that is perfect. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge— Veda , Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge—so that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas , just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually, these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person. May I ask a question, Master? You see, the belief, the understanding, is always depending on the level of the one who wants to understand, and that's the level of our quite natural, normal mind of the usual general person. And there is another level, where certain experiences open the door to some deeper consciousness. And, as you know, one of the key words of the Christian religion is, in the Gospels, that you have to turn around, to make annoia , to pierce through a certain skin to get quite another level. Yes. And from this level the heaven opens to those who didn't understand what the heaven means. They thought it was behind the clouds. You see, there is a natural way to look at God, and this natural way to look at God is lost as soon as people go through the rational mind. And then there is no other way out but to have a personal, initiated experience. We talk about initiation when people are capable to go through a certain death and to discover another level, and only . . . and so, the great wisdom which you are talking about, I am sure that it also touches people on two levels. There is the ordinary man, and he might believe, but there is a deeper level, where things start to change yourself, to transform yourself in deeper experiences. *Yes. That is . . . that is the beginning of instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct background comments) The beginning of knowledge . . . Excuse me. Would you please explain for some people who don't speak English here, in German, because we don't know all of your words? Yes, but I didn't want to interrupt the Master. No. I have no objection if somebody translates into German. Vedavyāsa can translate. (German) Do you permit me to repeat it in German? For those who are present here? Yes. Yes. (German) (break) So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding: Yes. What is the translation? *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." And now . . . (to devotee) You want to translate? Translate. (devotee translates into German from this point) *Yes, translate. This is the basic principle of knowledge that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge that, "I am not this . . ." At the present moment everything . . . that I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self*-interest means this bodily interest. *(aside) Explain this. (German translation) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that, "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform—what is knowledge? First of all one must know that, "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book, Bhagavad*-gītā . May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the Western world an opposition from the Christian side, where the key word is that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh? That's all right. We accept it. The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (repeats in German) Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said? Spirit? You see I have very often . . . I saw the difference. The spirit becomes the flesh. The spirit becomes flesh. That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin, and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand it. Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. (to professor) I think I have understood your point? Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me—I might be wrong—that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think, that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (repeats in German) Now, what is our suffering? I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question. *Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad*-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not? Yes. So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life, I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated: birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem. Through many lives. Many life or this life. In this life you understand that, "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately. May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body. No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No. No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body. Yes, you can become. (translates question into German) Have you got some points in common with the Christian? Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians, who also certainly want to become independent from this body, which wants material life only. Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or . . . knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge . . . I think I should translate, Prabhupāda. (German) Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Muhammadan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge, we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. (translates) (break) (translating question) . . . stress on this point, that we are existing in a body but we should accept our existence as human being. Existence as human being you want? So do you think human being is existing in this body is perfect? (Vedavyāsa translates questions and answers from this point) No, I don't say it is perfect. (German) So he says yes, he accepts that our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now. No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the ideal should be how to become perfect. (German) So he asks, "How to become perfect: as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem, how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit. Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? (German) You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? (German) So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people. So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk, " Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu. " (German) He thinks there's a great difference between the talking of birds and bees and our talking. Why difference? They are talking in their community; you are talking in your community. (German) *No, he has said a very good point. He said there is a difference, because an animal has no self*-consciousness. He does not understand what he is in essence. Yes. That is the real point. I communicate myself, but . . . *That is the real point, that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts. Therefore the Brahma*-sūtra , Vedānta-sūtra , instructs in the beginning, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit, or Absolute Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. (aside) You take the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, first part, yes. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. It's not here. First part is not here. *No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. *No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā yaś . . . kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ (SB 1.2.10). Have you found? Yes, but I . . . it's two. Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It is in the first volume. That book is not here. Someone is bringing. So he has gone? Yes. Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says: "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (aside) Read this verse. Translation: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (Vedavyāsa translates into German) *Te . . . what is that? Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā : inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being. Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view, or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one, we are never talking about, has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth. Yes. That this goes together. (translates into German) Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that, "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. (German) He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth. *Yes, that is explained here, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts, but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth, but under, among us. So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. (German) So he asks, is it a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind . . . But you cannot do good to others, because you do not know what is good. (laughs) You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false; therefore your conception of goodness is also false. I cannot accept that the body is false. No, no. I withdraw that word "false." But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. Just like . . . I think so. I live my identity with the body. With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. I am only . . . You are simply . . . just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment; *I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. If I simply decorate this body, as the apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the . . . (chuckles) This is false attempt, that we are trying . . . this is called . . . in the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing . . . so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? (German) (break) . . . example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because, he says . . . But because he does not know that he is not this body. Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body. No, "remains" means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years' time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours . . . it is a question of hours and years. (break) . . . saying that this body is . . . the soul is eminent. The soul is different from the body. Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of . . . actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now. No, no. As long as we are alive. "As long as we are alive we are . . ." Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (break) . . . soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. (German) He doesn't want to separate. But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives. I think the difference is now just one, that Sir . . . (indistinct) . . . spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore. (German) May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks, "I am the spirit. I have a body," or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point. Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example: Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important . . . important . . . it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it—it is torn—you throw it away. You take another coat. *Can we not also say that self and not*-self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny. Must separate. Must separate. Either through death or destiny. Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body, which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding. (German) I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by 'realize the eternal truth'?" (German) I would like very much of . . . (German) (break) He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father. Not only the aim, but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this . . . by His son. Real life consists . . . (indistinct) . . . father by his son. That's a saying of the Gospels. That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son. Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. Back to your question. Professor Durckheim's question was, very simply, "What is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process? Because we would learn what's your way. What is our process? The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth, by association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God, then gradually you become godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire: it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God, then gradually you become godly, or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (break) . . . holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Holy name of God. Of God. *If you don't like to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant in your own way. But chant the name of God. If you know the name of God, chant it. If you do not know, then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name, and if you don't know, then take it from me. (break) . . . explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that God has many thousands of name or God has no name. No name means He has . . . He has got so many thousands of millions of name that you cannot say: "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say: "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Kṛṣṇa . This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. I think you said the Lord Jesus Christ said: "God, hallowed be Thy name." The Lord's Prayer, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. (explains in German) (break) He says from the Old Testament when Jesus said: "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name, because if we . . . So how He can be no name? He says: "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that. But there's no name in the Bible . . . That doesn't mean . . . he might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says: "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you do not know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name? He said: "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name, but you do not know it. (German) (break) He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to . . . Because there is name, you find out. He said that when it says: "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected . . . *Yes. Yes. So that we say, that God has no particular name. But according to His action, His name is done. Just like "Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa" is not the name. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractiveness. Just as Buddha is not a name. Hmm. Because he's man of knowledge, therefore he's called Buddha. The one who has reached . . . Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge. Buddha is not a name of somebody. Yes. Just like you say: "Hallowed be thy name, president." President. Now the president has a name, but you do not know. But the president must have a name. Has the name a special, esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name . . . has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened . . . No, not hidden but open, because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute, that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute, you become purified. Like iron in fire. Yes, that's right. (break) . . . the Vedic injunction: *For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord, harer nāma, harer nāma. Harer means "Of the Lord," and nāma means "name." Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma, nāma eva kevalam : "Simply chant the Lord's name," kalau , "in this age of Kali." Nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gatir anyathā. "There is no other alternative for self*-realization, no other alternative for self-realization." Therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. Kali means the age of quarrel. The age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarreling. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth, but they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God, and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German), what should be done in addition to that, or how it is, how it is formulated in the, in the total, in that complete system of your relevant teachings? *Yes. This is the bhakti*-mārga , means the first thing is śravaṇam , hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God, we simply imagine something . . . no. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly, then you can describe to others. That is called kīrtanam. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. And when the process goes on, hearing and chanting or describing— kīrtanam means describing . . . just like our this whole Society is hearing from these books, and they're going out to describe. This is called kīrtanam . Then, by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaraṇam . That means remembering, you always associate with God. So at all times, "Remember Me." *Yes. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pāda-sevanam; arcanaṁ vandanam , offer prayer; dāsyam , serve. In this way, there are nine different processes. We have a similar thing in the Christian in relation to (German). *Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . (break) Kali*-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth, but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say: "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions, and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says: "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this," is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united. But they're increasing flags, that's all. Fighting. It is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam . . . it was meant for unity, but it is rendered into fighting association, that's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, and he wants to give his perfect knowledge. *Do you mean the Kali*-yuga exists all the time? *No. This is the period when foolish men have developed . . . (break) Instead of making solution, the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma*-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth, is that from which, or from whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the . . . everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim, that if you follow these philosophical quotes, then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the Society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth, and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear . . . you do it like this." That is wanted. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. (German) (break) . . . this was the always the desire of mankind and to find . . . he says the kings should be wise, and the wise men should be kings. Yes. So he said that this was always the desire, but . . . But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring, but whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire in one way; I desire in my way. (German) (break) . . . saying that knowledge is important also . . . No, no. Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described, śamo damas titikṣā, ārjava . (aside) Find out. Yes. (German) She says that we cannot have heaven on earth. Hmm? We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it. No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can mend, because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification? Hmm. Translation? *Translation: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. (German) He doubts that everyone is convinced about that. Eh? Eh? He's doubting if we should convince them of that. *Well, who is not self*-controlled, he'll not be convinced, because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control? But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. Everywhere it is. But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the ascetic step you get somewhere, you see, where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says: "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you . . . No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction, that is also perfect. But they do not follow. They do not . . .? They do not follow. Sure. *That's it. Otherwise, either you follow Bhagavad*-gītā or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am this," "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification, but rubber stamp. This is the defect. (German) (break) . . . qualifications on the material platform. First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. Just like I think in the university, if one wants to learn about law, he must be graduate first of all. In India. Yes. So you, first of all become graduate, then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa , then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa , how you can understand? (break) *(reading from Bhagavad*-gītā ) ". . . three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German translation) (break) Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the Western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never . . . but you never asked us who we are and who we should become . . . (indistinct) . . ." This is the problem. That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul. I beg your pardon. You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German) (German) He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem. Hmm? He said what you said, that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now . . . Actual program, the actual program is there. I would like another question. The difference, it seems to me, I know. (German) (knock on door) Later on. Later on. (break) *He's speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization. First of all . . . Hmm? *We are speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing . . . if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these . . . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. Yes. You haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will . . . you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way, they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending chant the holy name of God. So do it. (German comments) Not that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (break) Then how can I help you? There is name. You do not know. So our recommendation is—not my recommendation; *from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad*-gītā — satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty? To know the name. Because I . . . To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know, take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that? There's thousands and millions of . . . That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it? No. I said millions of names. I'm looking for the name and . . . Yes. But if I've given you the name, why don't you take it? Because I'm not convinced that is the right name. That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. (German) How can I help? (German) You do not know the name. If somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take, that is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority: satataṁ kīrtayanto mām . "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Just see. (German) (break) . . . and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name, and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is, how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this? But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here, there's much difference. I mean, my question only, I saw singing the people . . . No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see. No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for truth. Phalena paricīyate . You have to see the resultant study. I was quite surprised. Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena paricīyate , you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. Yes. That would be the criterion for me. Yes. Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion is, when St. Paul speaks. They had the same . . . No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion, that's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. (aside) Yes, you can take. (guests taking prasādam ) Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God. Yes. That is the business in this age: chant the holy name of God. Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible . . . That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now? Not now. Later on. The simplest method—chant the holy name of God. That's all. And should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference? If you chant loudly, then others can hear. They also take benefit. Shall I translate? Hmm? Shall I translate? Yes. Even the birds and beasts, they will hear and be benefited. (German) Therefore loud chanting is recommended, so that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below (in temple room). Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. (chuckles) One Christian priest—I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii—so he came to talk with me. He inquired, "Swāmījī, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes. Without drugs. Yes. And one Christian priest, he showed one pamphlet that, "These boys, they're our boys, but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it?" He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church, but it was not going on; it was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of . . . the same men, the same place. The crowd is so . . . why? I have not brought all these men from India. Just judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations—they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these . . . they have given up everything. And they are working in the Society. They are working . . . We are working. We are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work. I see. We have no other . . . even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income? There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA . . ." What is this? (laughter) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that "We have no information that these people are CIA, but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution." That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very . . . if you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vṛndāvana center and Navadvīpa center, not less than 200 men are there, always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. (German) Here is a girl, Kausalyā. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married, she's happy, she has everything there. Life is there. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. May we take your leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No. You sit down. I have no need . . . I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Kṛṣṇa's talk, that is your . . . (indistinct) . . . already. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why do you stop? Satatam . Go on, continuous. What is that? Satatam means? Always? *Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ, namasyantaś ca mām . . . (BG 9.14). In what way can we support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can we offer optimal benefit to your movement? That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example . . . Yes. We have got a Life Membership program which can be . . . (indistinct) . . . can participate in that way. You can become a Life Member and read all these books and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there is no material loss on your part. But if there is any gain, why don't you take it? *No, my question was perhaps a little . . . not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions, and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad*-gītā in this form, in such ways, perhaps? Yes. We are writing these books for distribution. Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one. Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Yes, good for what is . . . I was very . . . Here is my Dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books. *Prabhupāda came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad*-gītā , Caitanya-caritāmṛta. And what is the number of books sold last year? Four million. Four million copies. May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our . . . or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such, but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a first university in the tradition of the ancient times. Yes. A kind of a university of . . . Oh, yes. Yes. Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences. *My idea is that all our centers should be self*-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go hundred miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New . . . West Virginia, Virginia. And similarly in other centers we are producing our food, grains—grains, vegetable, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animal. That we don't do. But will this center also be a kind of a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics? Oh, yes. Yes. That is important. We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Yes. Thank you. (aside) You can play a little record. Last night . . . This morning's recording? Yes. May I please ask, are there also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names? Yes, but we are exercising by dancing. Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupāda singing is played) Make little louder. (tape of Prabhupāda singing prayers to the six Gosvāmīs plays) What are these pictures? These are pictures of our Society's activities in the temples. Very constructive and very . . . so much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966. *Sixty*-seven. And during the Bangladesh crisis you also . . . Yes, anyone came, we feed. That much . . . there were many refugees, so we fed them. But that automatically answers the question of the gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see . . . No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also; there is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Māyāpur center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included. Included. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food—everything. I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of . . . No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture can unite. This is the only place, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. (break) . . . distinction. (showing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books) This is German. This is in Spanish, Chinese. (indistinct) . . . Chinese. Japanese also. And Hindi. Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati. But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German) Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children. *And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "Easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by*-product, not a main aim . . . *No. We are teaching . . . of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil . . . we don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā , to inquire about the Absolute Truth. *So can you not say that this knowledge is an ātma*-vidyā , that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the ātman ? Ātmine ? Ātmā , self. *Oh, ātmā , yes. Tattva*-jijñāsā means ātma-jijñāsā . *That is why it is also correct to translate the term kṛṣṇa*-arjuna-saṁvara as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge. (aside) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical—everything is there. In the *Gītā* it also, a verse that, "Four kinds of persons seek Me." *Ah, yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). "The man who seeks knowledge." *Yes, yes, catur*-vidhā . And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidhā . No. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Everything is there. *But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of . . . where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non*-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and we were . . . people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness . They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German). But this time is over. Yes, yes, yes. The modern times are not modern anymore. I agree with you, but just think how the world was only a few years ago. Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational spirit, the really German tradition is the irrational. Yes, yes. I agree. So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly. So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on. Changing. No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street . . . I don't mean . . . yes, of course, it was in the Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the . . . Absolutely, yes. And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German). (break) . . . I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants, I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is . . . No, we invite everyone. You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement . . . Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the Ober-(German) from Baden Wurttemberg, he is a Life Member. And all people . . . We have doctors, lawyers . . . He's simply a member? Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and here as a member. But his lifestyle is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (end) Conversation -- June 19, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Professor Durckheim, Dr. P. J. Saher and Professor Porsch) . . . and to write books, and people came, and today we have there what you would call a little āśrama , mostly about fifty, sixty persons living there, coming, going; no patients, just people who try to discover their real self, nothing else. Yes. That's our work we are trying to do. So Absolute Truth is realized in three aspect: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Some realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, others realize the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, and the final realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are cultivating the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So which aspect you are cultivating: the Paramātmā or the impersonal Brahman or the Personality of Godhead? You can't help cultivate all three in the long run. No, all three are one. I beg your pardon? All three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain—somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place—everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India—or everywhere—some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness. As Buddhists do. Buddhists, they, I think, they . . . yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa . Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization. To stop the? Realization. To become zero. Is not that? To become? I didn't understand. Zero. Zero. Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of view of the old ego it's zero, but this zero is everything from . . . (indistinct) . . . from the point of view of the natural ego it's zero and once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. It's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it. Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety; and some, localized Paramātmā; and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man: first of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating in healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa , negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong? You are certainly right. We see the . . . it is a big . . . in our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality. Yes, different it is. The same example as I gave you: in diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception. The dead. Person who is dead. We take this body—dead always. This body is actually dead. Just like this microphone is made of iron. It is iron. When it is working, responding, at that time also it is iron. And when it is out of order, does not work, it is also iron. Similarly, this body is working on account of the living force within. When the living force is out, it is called dead. But actually it is dead always. The living force is the important thing. That is making him alive. Actually, alive or dead, it is dead matter. But the living force is the active principle. That is distinguishing this body as dead or alive. But factually it is dead always. *That is the beginning of instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā : "Arjuna, you are lamenting for this body, but the body is dead." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So unless we know that . . . (aside) Don't make cut-cut . The dead body is not the subject matter of study, either it is in working order or it is in dead order. The subject matter of study is the active principle which makes the dead body moving. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā . (aside) Read that portion. Translation: "The Blessed Lord said, While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." What is your opinion about this? May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter but makes matter alive? That active principle, life, or living soul. Yes, how do you make them . . . How do you teach them? . . . teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel? It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be, "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā . First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is un . . . aware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy. No, that's quite clear. *Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad*-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking, I am asking my student, "Come here," he comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"—he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning. May I ask a question still? It is quite clear for our rational mind: I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, let's say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion. Because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says . . . talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says: "Well, you must make exercises . . ." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom. *No, as I say, the active principle . . . I am also the active principle, that active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham. So 'ham , "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self*-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54): "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly," prasannātmā . He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : "He is equal to everyone—man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54): "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all . . . just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized, because he has understood "What I am." Yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that, "I am part and parcel of God, so my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service. I say, Master, that when you say he knows, you don't speak about this knowledge. Which knowledge? You came already . . . you say: "Believe, and by this know that I am participating in the great divine person." And yet I didn't experience it. *Why not experience? He knows that, "I am that active principle." Everyone knows that, "I am not this body." When I say: "This is my finger," I don't say "I finger." So "I," what "I am"? That realization, self*-realization that, "I am part and parcel of God," so that he knows that, "I am part and parcel of God. So therefore my duty is to serve God." So they are engaged in serving God. *So this serving God, or devotional service, is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) Find out that verse, that: *So unless one is self*-realized, he cannot be engaged in the service of the Supreme Self. Ordinarily, a master and a servant, a servant knows that "I am engaged by the master. He is giving me food, he is giving me shelter—he is giving me everything for his serving." So he is careful in his service. This is a material example. Similarly, self-realization, ultimately, as I told you, that first impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then the yogīs , they realize the localized Paramātmā. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , they observe the Supersoul within himself, and they meditate upon Him. (aside) What is that verse? Translation: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." This is our process. A long way to get there. And the process is going on. The chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, by this process they fully realize that the master, the Supreme Being, and engages himself always. These European, American boy, they are all educated. Not . . . in your country, of course, the young men . . . They are educated too. *Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? (break) "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin A, B, C, D. And why should you kill animals? Why should we give trouble to the others?" This is self*-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same, the body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization. Well, may I put a question, Master? On the way there should be progress, inner progress. How to realize that there is a progress? I would say one thing is very important. There are three sufferings in the world of mankind: fear of annihilation, despair if you are taken by something which is absurd, and loneliness, if you are alone. These three sufferings in the world for the natural being. I realize that you make a decisive step on your inner way when you feel life in the very moment when you have to die, when you feel the great meaning in the very moment when you are just having despair, and when you feel the great love of the person God exactly while you are lonely in the world. And I have realized that we are now in a very decisive moment in the Western world because for the first time in the history of mankind, the Western people, in Europe and the States, start to take seriously certain experiences, inner experiences, where this truth is revealed. In all times, as far as I see, the great condition of the East, they knew about those experiences where death loses its terrifying character and becomes the threshold to some bigger life. And I always see with also my disciples, as soon as they learn to go through some kind of death, they awake on a new level. So I will say if people are in my place and after a week they still sleep very well, then I have made a mistake. About that sleep, just to realize something in overcoming their usual needs, their usual fears, their usual habits, in order to touch inwardly another level, and then suddenly they realize there is some quite different principle at work as they see usually in their natural mind. So that different principle, for a devotee, is already realized. Because a devotee never thinks of this body that, "I am this body." He thinks "I am . . ." ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am spirit soul." So without that realization, there is no question of devotional life. So that is first understood. That instruction is being given by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna that, "You are considering very seriously on this body, but a learned man does not take this body very seriously, either dead or alive." That is the first realization. So everyone in this world, they are concerned with this body, dead or alive. When alive, they take care of the body in so many ways, and when dead they erect big statue upon it. So that realization is this body. When it is alive, very nicely dressed, nicely groomed, nicely everything on account of this body, and when dead, then again the statue, the tomb, that's all, but missing the active principle. He is taking care of this body even after death by erecting very nice memorial, but he has no knowledge where the active principle has lost. That is ignorance. When I was a young man, I was four years in the World War. Four years. *Four years. Forty*-eight months almost in the foremost front. And I was one of the two officers . . . In First World War? First World War? World War I, 1914 to 1918. Yes. Yes. And I was one of the two officers who were not wounded in my regiment. And there I met death again and again. And I saw people just killed next to me. Suddenly it was out. It was just only, as you say, the body without soul. But I realized also, in myself, that when death was near and you had accepted death, accepted to die, then you realized something which has nothing to do whatsoever with death. *Yes. That is self*-realization. So this marked me very much. It's the very beginning of my inner way, these four years of World War. *There is a verse, nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). If one is God-realized soul, he is not afraid of anything. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. So actually, if one is self-realized, he is no more fearful or concerned with the bodily necessities of life. That is liberation. Just like as you mentioned sleeping. Sleeping also, a bodily necessity. When you are tired, you sleep. That is bodily necessity. But it is not spiritually necessary. About the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau : "Conquered over sleeping, eating, mating." That is also one of the symptoms of self-realization. These things are necessities of the body. So the more one is advanced in self-realization, these things will be minimized: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. And gradually it will come to nil, because this is bodily necessities. Self, the active principle, that is different. The active principle, necessity is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. But these are bodily necessities: eating, sleeping, mating. So, so long this body is there, of course, we must eat, we must sleep. That is required. But the more we advance, these necessities diminished. Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Then sleeping will be considered a waste of time. A self-realized man goes to sleep, he thinks that, "I am going to waste so much time, because still I am subjected to the necessities of this body." He regrets. *The progress of self*-realization is a sequence of experiences, isn't it, of inner experiences? Yes. *The progress of self*-realization is a progress of inner experiences. Yes. And I do believe that at the actual moment still, the treasure in the European peoples, the different peoples who went through the war, through concentration camps, through battlefields and bombing nights, are hidden in their hearts certain moments when death was near and they were wounded and nearly torn in pieces. Because they had a certain experience they survived. And again and again, when I give a lecture, I have two or three people waiting, telling me, "Now you just reminded me an experience long ago, ten days ago, two months ago, when I thought I was a little bit crazy, and now I understand it has been the experience, perhaps the most important of my life, on which I should have built my future inner way." And these experiences are still there. And once people understand, they don't need a war and a battleship and a concentration camp and a bombing night to take serious certain inner experiences when they are suddenly are touched by this divine reality, and they suddenly feel that this bodily existence is not lasting at all. That's it. That we can experience every night. Yes, exactly. *When you dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So, and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such*-and-such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually, I am different from the mind. And that is self-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). (aside) Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ . That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think. Translation: "The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he, the soul, is even higher than the intelligence." This is description. May I put a question, sir, to the question of time, the meaning of time? I think there are two ways to look at time and to look at eternity. Time is eternal. Time is eternal, but we calculate time, past and present and future, according to my temporary material existence. Just like a small ant—the ant's past and present is different from my past and present. Is different from . . .? My past and present. I am a human being. I live for hundred years. So my past and present is different from the ant who lives for, say, a few hours. Is different from? From the ant, a small living entity. And similarly, Brahmā, his past, present is different because he has done millions and millions of years as one day. So the time is eternal, but according to our condition, occupying the time and space, we calculate past and present and future. Otherwise time itself is eternal. Well, now I question you. You see, talking about eternity, there are two meanings or concepts at the same time. The one is that the finite life is going on infinitely, infinity, millions of year. That is one way to think about eternity. Yes. But there is another one. Eternity means, we say, no beginning, no end. That is eternity. Isn't there also this other one, when, for instance, Christ says: "I am before Abraham was"? This "I am." There is one kind of eternity which has nothing to do with past and future at all, which is beyond past and future. Past and future is concerned with this body. Is concerned with this body. It is concerned, exactly, with this body and with this ego, with regard to which there is a "before" and an "after," an "up" and "down." And if you take away this ego, what's there? What's left? *That is pure ego. Now I am born Indian, say, seventy*-five years ago, or seventy-eight years ago, and I have got this Indian body, I have got this false ego that, "I am Indian, I am this body." This is misconception. That is one way to look at time. But it's not the . . . Time is there, but because I have got this temporary body, I am thinking past, present, future. The temporary body will be vanished. I shall get another temporary body. Then again my begins past and present. So therefore this is called illusion. Time is eternal. It has no beginning, no end, but we transmigrate from one body to another. We are calculating, miscalculating, past, present, future. Yes, time has no beginning and no end. But time in this second sense has nothing to do with beginning and end. It has no end . . . beginning, no end. The beginning and end is of this body. And in relationship with this body, we are calculating past, present, future. But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body. I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become . . . No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man. I am very . . ." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting, "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am śūdra "—so many designation. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity. But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure. The consciousness is covered by impurity, just like your health is covered by disease, and the symptom is fever. But that is a covering. That is not your healthy state. Similarly, my consciousness, when I think that, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," that is impurity. And when he thinks that, "I am neither German, neither American, nor this nor that—I am part and parcel of God," that is pure consciousness. But in order to get there, to feel that one is neither this nor that, one must have suffered by first having thought that one is this or that. That suffering is just like you suffer in the dream. You are attacked by a tiger. There is no tiger. Actually there is no suffering. But on account of ignorance, you are thinking, "The tiger is eating me." Yes, but this is a very good example, because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself. Yes, that experience is also material. Yes, exactly. That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dream and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane. That, it is stated: *So we have to transcend the platform of intelligence also. Then we come to the platform of spiritual realization. That is instructed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) What happened to your eyes? I was cut. How? I was in an automobile accident. Oh. But he's all right. Others also? No it's. It's just a cut here. *So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to real consciousness. That real consciousness is that, "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight because you designated yourself that, "I am German." This is an example that, "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self*-realization. *Just like the Arjuna. Arjuna was put into the ba . . . you have read Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, this Bhagavad-gītā ? Yes. *So he was thinking in terms of designation that, "I am . . . I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin*-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first thing, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , when he understood that, "I am not this body; *I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self*-realization, not for this body. *No.There is only one way to world peace: through self*-realization of those who are responsible. *Yes. Self*-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should understand that, "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany," "This is England," "This is France," "This is India," "This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean" and "This is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding that, "Nothing belongs to us . . ." The United Nation, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground, because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace. *As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the high priest, now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu after the other one. Only one resisted, in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said: "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword master asked him—he was a realized man—"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said: "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said: "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self*-realized man, said: "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met. Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize, that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that. So if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful. *In my work I always feel the great difficulty again and again, sir, and is always there. It's a great difference to believe that you are the son of God and to feel it and to experience it. As long it's only a belief, it's well*-meaning doing. How to prepare the conditions by which disciples might feel it? That's all of my daily work. Yes. Just like . . . it is very simple thing. Just like if I say . . . suppose you have not seen your father—you are posthumous child—but you must believe that there is father. Without father there is no possibility of my existence. That is belief. And in the Christian . . . Experience it. *This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily . . . father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this: *Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "I am the seed*-giving father of all living entities in different forms of life." There is one difficulty in the Western part of the world which might not be so great in the Eastern part. If . . . I realize in Japan, when they talk about father and mother, especially also mother, it was all something to be loved, to be grateful, to submit. In our countries now, the father is generally the one who does not understand anymore his son, and the son has to get rid of his body father in order to be able to realize himself. So very often the main obstacle in our youth is the image of mother and father, because they have never understood their children. So the word father for many people in the Western part of the world . . . Misunderstood. Is a misunder . . . is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today. I have to very much . . . It is not religion; it is fact. It is not . . . religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son . . . without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. Yes. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son. Or more son. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment. It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says: "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am." *Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that . . . the Christians, so*-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say: "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that, "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that, "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact. He is the supreme father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. (aside) Read that śloka . *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Just see. Wonderful. *Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated, in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self*-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facilities to the human being, not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. "National" means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of national. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all . . . everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that, "I am this body." But when we understand that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self-realization. And this understanding has to be an experience. Yes, it is experienced, but on account of his foolishness he is thinking otherwise. He knows that, "I am not this body. I am now in this body of an old man, but I was not in this body, say, fifty years ago. Therefore I am not this body, that body or this body. I am different from the body." This is very easy experience. I am existing. I understand that I existed in a baby's body, I existed in a child's body, boy's body. So I have now changed so many bodies. Therefore I am not this body. Just like you dress. You are now in black coat, and next moment you can be in other color. But you are not this coat; *you have changed the coat. Similarly, I have changed the body, but I am not this body. This is self*-realization. First of all let me know that, "I am not this body, I am living within this body." You are not this coat. If I ask you, "Mr. Black Coat" that is my foolishness. You are neither black coat or white coat. And that is self-realization. And yet isn't there difficulty? You can already have understood very well that you are not the body, but as long, for instance, as you have still fear of death, you didn't understand by experience. As soon as you understood by experience, you have no fear of death because you know that you can't die. So experience is received by higher knowledge. Experience means higher knowledge. Just like a child . . . Experience means . . .? Higher knowledge. Higher knowledge. As soon as you have the experience, you get the higher knowledge. Yes. So the more you are highly elevated in knowledge, your experience is perfect. I would like to say the other way around: As more as you are advanced in experience, the more you have higher knowledge. But experience, it may be slow. But higher knowledge you can get immediately. Yes. Like flash. Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . When it's awakening. Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that you are not this body. So instead of my experiencing for years and years that, "I am not this body," we take the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect, and my experience is now received. Yes, I understand. *Therefore Vedic instruction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru . That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . Now, Who is guru ? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru , śrotriyam , who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru . Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru , he is not guru . This is called guru-paramparā , disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our . . . (aside) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. Yes. So I am always inexperienced, because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. He asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone." That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge. You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. *We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because the source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God, and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God, who has come directly from Him, the same. So . . . but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure. Not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him, and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). This is . . . evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside) Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science, as it is, appears to be lost." That's it. Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the Western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom. (chuckles) Yes. You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings. Yes, yes. Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our Western, as you know better than I do, in our Western mankind . . . and they say: "Well, after all . . ." You see, science, they say: "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said: "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me, you have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are. *Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31): "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life." No, nothing. *Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatim . Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ : "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very, quite visible in the Western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā . That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha . The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the . . . They won't move at all, blind . . . No. Therefore they are being frustrated. There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question, which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question. Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end . . . Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna , or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into . . . There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality. Yes. Not only that. The other than . . . lower animals—birds, beast and other—they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating. And eating each other without complex. Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being, we are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have no even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice, nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die; then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense even. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars—war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only . . . without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living, "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that, "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that, "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live, and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cow dung, we have stacked here. I have seen. They are also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. Buddhism, there is no animal killing, although they are now killing animals. But originally Buddha religion means nonviolence. Also Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā . So in no religion unnecessary killing of animal is allowed. Even in Muhammadans, they are also . . . Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted. May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away? No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientist . . . That's what I mean. . . . Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose. The trees have got sensation. So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree . . . No, we don't kill. You take the fruits. We cut it. Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary. For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it. Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra : *That "Those who have no hands"—that means animals—"they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four*-legged." Just like grass has no leg, but it is a food for the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, nunam mahatām tatra , "Then one who is powerful, very powerful . . ." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the . . . that is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. *But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda . So Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me these foodstuff." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra , to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization. Not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy. Yes. There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening. No, let them come here. (break) We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. I see. I have published about fourteen books like this. Incredible. Incredible. What a thing! (guests enter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You can put this side. Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Saher. He is the leader of the Society of Yoga and Integral Philosophical Studies in Germany. Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. (laughter and indistinct background comments) So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. (devotee translates into German for guests) I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment . . . not at the present moment; *always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is . . . (break) . . . then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). That is one. (aside) You serve it out. *So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one: to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self*-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozens. But our only writing is the goal of life: Kṛṣṇa. May I come back once to my question, Master, the relationship between belief and experience? Because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks. No, believe the authority. That is the . . . that is better than experience. Yes. And that is what in our country is . . . I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on. (aside) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief . . . They realize that now belief, which is not faith, has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts. And they don't believe what you tell them; they just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a . . . big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. (to guest) That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so? Yes, it is. *Yes. So thing is that . . . first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas , that is perfect. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge— Veda , Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge—so that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas , just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually, these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person. May I ask a question, Master? You see, the belief, the understanding, is always depending on the level of the one who wants to understand, and that's the level of our quite natural, normal mind of the usual general person. And there is another level, where certain experiences open the door to some deeper consciousness. And, as you know, one of the key words of the Christian religion is, in the Gospels, that you have to turn around, to make annoia , to pierce through a certain skin to get quite another level. Yes. And from this level the heaven opens to those who didn't understand what the heaven means. They thought it was behind the clouds. You see, there is a natural way to look at God, and this natural way to look at God is lost as soon as people go through the rational mind. And then there is no other way out but to have a personal, initiated experience. We talk about initiation when people are capable to go through a certain death and to discover another level, and only . . . and so, the great wisdom which you are talking about, I am sure that it also touches people on two levels. There is the ordinary man, and he might believe, but there is a deeper level, where things start to change yourself, to transform yourself in deeper experiences. *Yes. That is . . . that is the beginning of instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct background comments) The beginning of knowledge . . . Excuse me. Would you please explain for some people who don't speak English here, in German, because we don't know all of your words? Yes, but I didn't want to interrupt the Master. No. I have no objection if somebody translates into German. Vedavyāsa can translate. (German) Do you permit me to repeat it in German? For those who are present here? Yes. Yes. (German) (break) So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding: Yes. What is the translation? *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." And now . . . (to devotee) You want to translate? Translate. (devotee translates into German from this point) *Yes, translate. This is the basic principle of knowledge that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge that, "I am not this . . ." At the present moment everything . . . that I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self*-interest means this bodily interest. *(aside) Explain this. (German translation) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that, "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform—what is knowledge? First of all one must know that, "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book, Bhagavad*-gītā . May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the Western world an opposition from the Christian side, where the key word is that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh? That's all right. We accept it. The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (repeats in German) Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said? Spirit? You see I have very often . . . I saw the difference. The spirit becomes the flesh. The spirit becomes flesh. That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin, and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand it. Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. (to professor) I think I have understood your point? Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me—I might be wrong—that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think, that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (repeats in German) Now, what is our suffering? I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question. *Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad*-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not? Yes. So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life, I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated: birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem. Through many lives. Many life or this life. In this life you understand that, "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately. May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body. No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No. No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body. Yes, you can become. (translates question into German) Have you got some points in common with the Christian? Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians, who also certainly want to become independent from this body, which wants material life only. Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or . . . knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge . . . I think I should translate, Prabhupāda. (German) Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Muhammadan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge, we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. (translates) (break) (translating question) . . . stress on this point, that we are existing in a body but we should accept our existence as human being. Existence as human being you want? So do you think human being is existing in this body is perfect? (Vedavyāsa translates questions and answers from this point) No, I don't say it is perfect. (German) So he says yes, he accepts that our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now. No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the ideal should be how to become perfect. (German) So he asks, "How to become perfect: as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem, how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit. Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? (German) You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? (German) So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people. So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk, " Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu. " (German) He thinks there's a great difference between the talking of birds and bees and our talking. Why difference? They are talking in their community; you are talking in your community. (German) *No, he has said a very good point. He said there is a difference, because an animal has no self*-consciousness. He does not understand what he is in essence. Yes. That is the real point. I communicate myself, but . . . *That is the real point, that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts. Therefore the Brahma*-sūtra , Vedānta-sūtra , instructs in the beginning, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit, or Absolute Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. (aside) You take the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, first part, yes. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. It's not here. First part is not here. *No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. *No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā yaś . . . kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ (SB 1.2.10). Have you found? Yes, but I . . . it's two. Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It is in the first volume. That book is not here. Someone is bringing. So he has gone? Yes. Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says: "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (aside) Read this verse. Translation: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (Vedavyāsa translates into German) *Te . . . what is that? Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā : inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being. Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view, or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one, we are never talking about, has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth. Yes. That this goes together. (translates into German) Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that, "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. (German) He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth. *Yes, that is explained here, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts, but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth, but under, among us. So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. (German) So he asks, is it a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind . . . But you cannot do good to others, because you do not know what is good. (laughs) You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false; therefore your conception of goodness is also false. I cannot accept that the body is false. No, no. I withdraw that word "false." But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. Just like . . . I think so. I live my identity with the body. With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. I am only . . . You are simply . . . just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment; *I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. If I simply decorate this body, as the apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the . . . (chuckles) This is false attempt, that we are trying . . . this is called . . . in the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing . . . so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? (German) (break) . . . example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because, he says . . . But because he does not know that he is not this body. Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body. No, "remains" means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years' time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours . . . it is a question of hours and years. (break) . . . saying that this body is . . . the soul is eminent. The soul is different from the body. Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of . . . actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now. No, no. As long as we are alive. "As long as we are alive we are . . ." Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (break) . . . soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. (German) He doesn't want to separate. But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives. I think the difference is now just one, that Sir . . . (indistinct) . . . spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore. (German) May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks, "I am the spirit. I have a body," or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point. Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example: Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important . . . important . . . it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it—it is torn—you throw it away. You take another coat. *Can we not also say that self and not*-self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny. Must separate. Must separate. Either through death or destiny. Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body, which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding. (German) I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by 'realize the eternal truth'?" (German) I would like very much of . . . (German) (break) He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father. Not only the aim, but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this . . . by His son. Real life consists . . . (indistinct) . . . father by his son. That's a saying of the Gospels. That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son. Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. Back to your question. Professor Durckheim's question was, very simply, "What is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process? Because we would learn what's your way. What is our process? The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth, by association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God, then gradually you become godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire: it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God, then gradually you become godly, or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (break) . . . holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Holy name of God. Of God. *If you don't like to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant in your own way. But chant the name of God. If you know the name of God, chant it. If you do not know, then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name, and if you don't know, then take it from me. (break) . . . explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that God has many thousands of name or God has no name. No name means He has . . . He has got so many thousands of millions of name that you cannot say: "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say: "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Kṛṣṇa . This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. I think you said the Lord Jesus Christ said: "God, hallowed be Thy name." The Lord's Prayer, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. (explains in German) (break) He says from the Old Testament when Jesus said: "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name, because if we . . . So how He can be no name? He says: "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that. But there's no name in the Bible . . . That doesn't mean . . . he might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says: "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you do not know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name? He said: "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name, but you do not know it. (German) (break) He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to . . . Because there is name, you find out. He said that when it says: "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected . . . *Yes. Yes. So that we say, that God has no particular name. But according to His action, His name is done. Just like "Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa" is not the name. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractiveness. Just as Buddha is not a name. Hmm. Because he's man of knowledge, therefore he's called Buddha. The one who has reached . . . Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge. Buddha is not a name of somebody. Yes. Just like you say: "Hallowed be thy name, president." President. Now the president has a name, but you do not know. But the president must have a name. Has the name a special, esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name . . . has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened . . . No, not hidden but open, because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute, that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute, you become purified. Like iron in fire. Yes, that's right. (break) . . . the Vedic injunction: *For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord, harer nāma, harer nāma. Harer means "Of the Lord," and nāma means "name." Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma, nāma eva kevalam : "Simply chant the Lord's name," kalau , "in this age of Kali." Nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gatir anyathā. "There is no other alternative for self*-realization, no other alternative for self-realization." Therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. Kali means the age of quarrel. The age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarreling. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth, but they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God, and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German), what should be done in addition to that, or how it is, how it is formulated in the, in the total, in that complete system of your relevant teachings? *Yes. This is the bhakti*-mārga , means the first thing is śravaṇam , hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God, we simply imagine something . . . no. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly, then you can describe to others. That is called kīrtanam. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. And when the process goes on, hearing and chanting or describing— kīrtanam means describing . . . just like our this whole Society is hearing from these books, and they're going out to describe. This is called kīrtanam . Then, by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaraṇam . That means remembering, you always associate with God. So at all times, "Remember Me." *Yes. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pāda-sevanam; arcanaṁ vandanam , offer prayer; dāsyam , serve. In this way, there are nine different processes. We have a similar thing in the Christian in relation to (German). *Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . (break) Kali*-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth, but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say: "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions, and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says: "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this," is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united. But they're increasing flags, that's all. Fighting. It is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam . . . it was meant for unity, but it is rendered into fighting association, that's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, and he wants to give his perfect knowledge. *Do you mean the Kali*-yuga exists all the time? *No. This is the period when foolish men have developed . . . (break) Instead of making solution, the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma*-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth, is that from which, or from whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the . . . everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim, that if you follow these philosophical quotes, then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the Society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth, and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear . . . you do it like this." That is wanted. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. (German) (break) . . . this was the always the desire of mankind and to find . . . he says the kings should be wise, and the wise men should be kings. Yes. So he said that this was always the desire, but . . . But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring, but whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire in one way; I desire in my way. (German) (break) . . . saying that knowledge is important also . . . No, no. Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described, śamo damas titikṣā, ārjava . (aside) Find out. Yes. (German) She says that we cannot have heaven on earth. Hmm? We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it. No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can mend, because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification? Hmm. Translation? *Translation: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. (German) He doubts that everyone is convinced about that. Eh? Eh? He's doubting if we should convince them of that. *Well, who is not self*-controlled, he'll not be convinced, because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control? But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. Everywhere it is. But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the ascetic step you get somewhere, you see, where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says: "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you . . . No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction, that is also perfect. But they do not follow. They do not . . .? They do not follow. Sure. *That's it. Otherwise, either you follow Bhagavad*-gītā or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am this," "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification, but rubber stamp. This is the defect. (German) (break) . . . qualifications on the material platform. First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. Just like I think in the university, if one wants to learn about law, he must be graduate first of all. In India. Yes. So you, first of all become graduate, then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa , then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa , how you can understand? (break) *(reading from Bhagavad*-gītā ) ". . . three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German translation) (break) Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the Western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never . . . but you never asked us who we are and who we should become . . . (indistinct) . . ." This is the problem. That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul. I beg your pardon. You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German) (German) He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem. Hmm? He said what you said, that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now . . . Actual program, the actual program is there. I would like another question. The difference, it seems to me, I know. (German) (knock on door) Later on. Later on. (break) *He's speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization. First of all . . . Hmm? *We are speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing . . . if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these . . . Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. Yes. You haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will . . . you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way, they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending chant the holy name of God. So do it. (German comments) Not that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (break) Then how can I help you? There is name. You do not know. So our recommendation is—not my recommendation; *from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad*-gītā — satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty? To know the name. Because I . . . To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know, take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that? There's thousands and millions of . . . That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it? No. I said millions of names. I'm looking for the name and . . . Yes. But if I've given you the name, why don't you take it? Because I'm not convinced that is the right name. That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. (German) How can I help? (German) You do not know the name. If somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take, that is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority: satataṁ kīrtayanto mām . "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Just see. (German) (break) . . . and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name, and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is, how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this? But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here, there's much difference. I mean, my question only, I saw singing the people . . . No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see. No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for truth. Phalena paricīyate . You have to see the resultant study. I was quite surprised. Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena paricīyate , you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. Yes. That would be the criterion for me. Yes. Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion is, when St. Paul speaks. They had the same . . . No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion, that's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. (aside) Yes, you can take. (guests taking prasādam ) Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God. Yes. That is the business in this age: chant the holy name of God. Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible . . . That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now? Not now. Later on. The simplest method—chant the holy name of God. That's all. And should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference? If you chant loudly, then others can hear. They also take benefit. Shall I translate? Hmm? Shall I translate? Yes. Even the birds and beasts, they will hear and be benefited. (German) Therefore loud chanting is recommended, so that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below (in temple room). Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. (chuckles) One Christian priest—I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii—so he came to talk with me. He inquired, "Swāmījī, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes. Without drugs. Yes. And one Christian priest, he showed one pamphlet that, "These boys, they're our boys, but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it?" He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church, but it was not going on; it was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of . . . the same men, the same place. The crowd is so . . . why? I have not brought all these men from India. Just judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations—they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these . . . they have given up everything. And they are working in the Society. They are working . . . We are working. We are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work. I see. We have no other . . . even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income? There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA . . ." What is this? (laughter) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that "We have no information that these people are CIA, but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution." That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very . . . if you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vṛndāvana center and Navadvīpa center, not less than 200 men are there, always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. (German) Here is a girl, Kausalyā. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married, she's happy, she has everything there. Life is there. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. May we take your leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda? No. You sit down. I have no need . . . I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Kṛṣṇa's talk, that is your . . . (indistinct) . . . already. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why do you stop? Satatam . Go on, continuous. What is that? Satatam means? Always? *Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ, namasyantaś ca mām . . . (BG 9.14). In what way can we support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can we offer optimal benefit to your movement? That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example . . . Yes. We have got a Life Membership program which can be . . . (indistinct) . . . can participate in that way. You can become a Life Member and read all these books and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there is no material loss on your part. But if there is any gain, why don't you take it? *No, my question was perhaps a little . . . not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions, and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad*-gītā in this form, in such ways, perhaps? Yes. We are writing these books for distribution. Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one. Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Yes, good for what is . . . I was very . . . Here is my Dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books. *Prabhupāda came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad*-gītā , Caitanya-caritāmṛta. And what is the number of books sold last year? Four million. Four million copies. May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our . . . or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such, but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a first university in the tradition of the ancient times. Yes. A kind of a university of . . . Oh, yes. Yes. Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences. *My idea is that all our centers should be self*-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go hundred miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New . . . West Virginia, Virginia. And similarly in other centers we are producing our food, grains—grains, vegetable, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animal. That we don't do. But will this center also be a kind of a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics? Oh, yes. Yes. That is important. We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Yes. Thank you. (aside) You can play a little record. Last night . . . This morning's recording? Yes. May I please ask, are there also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names? Yes, but we are exercising by dancing. Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupāda singing is played) Make little louder. (tape of Prabhupāda singing prayers to the six Gosvāmīs plays) What are these pictures? These are pictures of our Society's activities in the temples. Very constructive and very . . . so much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966. *Sixty*-seven. And during the Bangladesh crisis you also . . . Yes, anyone came, we feed. That much . . . there were many refugees, so we fed them. But that automatically answers the question of the gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see . . . No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also; there is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Māyāpur center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included. Included. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food—everything. I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of . . . No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture can unite. This is the only place, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. (break) . . . distinction. (showing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books) This is German. This is in Spanish, Chinese. (indistinct) . . . Chinese. Japanese also. And Hindi. Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati. But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German) Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children. *And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "Easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by*-product, not a main aim . . . *No. We are teaching . . . of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil . . . we don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā , to inquire about the Absolute Truth. *So can you not say that this knowledge is an ātma*-vidyā , that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the ātman ? Ātmine ? Ātmā , self. *Oh, ātmā , yes. Tattva*-jijñāsā means ātma-jijñāsā . *That is why it is also correct to translate the term kṛṣṇa*-arjuna-saṁvara as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge. (aside) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical—everything is there. In the *Gītā* it also, a verse that, "Four kinds of persons seek Me." *Ah, yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). "The man who seeks knowledge." *Yes, yes, catur*-vidhā . And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidhā . No. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Everything is there. *But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of . . . where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non*-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and we were . . . people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness . They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German). But this time is over. Yes, yes, yes. The modern times are not modern anymore. I agree with you, but just think how the world was only a few years ago. Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational spirit, the really German tradition is the irrational. Yes, yes. I agree. So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly. So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on. Changing. No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street . . . I don't mean . . . yes, of course, it was in the Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the . . . Absolutely, yes. And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German). (break) . . . I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants, I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is . . . No, we invite everyone. You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement . . . Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the Ober-(German) from Baden Wurttemberg, he is a Life Member. And all people . . . We have doctors, lawyers . . . He's simply a member? Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and here as a member. But his lifestyle is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (end) Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Christians) Cannot find? Yes. In German, just . . . Hmm. (reads translation in German) (German discussion with guest) Sex life, married couple, that is all right; not otherwise. That is sinful. (translated into German throughout) *Śrīla Prabhupāda, just his objection was that in this statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā doesn't clearly say no reason you should not have sex life outside of married life, they simply state religious principles, but this is . . . Religious principle means married life; otherwise cats and dogs. what is the . . . if everyone has without any limitation sex life, then what is the difference between cats and dogs? Religion means they are not cats and dogs, because religion is in the human society, not in the cats' and dogs' society. I agree that in the Christian . . . (indistinct) . . . also. And in the life who will come, will not be sexual life in the future in the perfection state. No there will no be the sexual life *Yes, in the spiritual life there is no sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex intercourse. There is no sex life. Although there is man and woman, but there is no sex intercourse. By chanting the glories of God there in the spiritual world, they get so much great pleasure that is far beyond this pleasure of sex life. Something best, then you forget lower*-grade pleasure. So this sex pleasure is lower-grade pleasure. It is not pleasure, it is illusion. But in material world this is the greatest pleasure. Therefore everyone, they are coming back to the sex pleasure. Everyone. Even so-called religionists and svāmīs and . . . they are coming down to the sex pleasure. Because in this material world that is the only highest pleasure. So, so long one will be attracted by the sex pleasure, it is still in the material world. And when one will be on the platform to spit (makes spitting noise) on sex pleasure, then his spiritual life begins. That is stated by Yāmunācārya: Yāmunācārya, a great saintly person, he was formerly big king, so he said: "Since I have become Kṛṣṇa conscious and enjoying, since that time, as soon as I remember even sex life, I spit on it and my mouth becomes turned." (makes sound of repugnance) This is the test. Not that you become very advanced spiritualist and at the same time advance in sex life. That is not. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra . . . (SB 11.2.42). That is the test, that as soon as you are advanced in spiritual life, all these materialistic habits will be rejected automatically. This is the test. Four things are material demands—eating, satisfaction of the tongue or belly and satisfaction of the genital, āhāra ; and sleeping and to become good defender, defense measure. These are material necessity. And the one who is spiritually advanced, these things will be reduced, almost nil. What Christ says, Jesus Christ, about sex life? What does he say? Only in the married life. Yes. Only. Yes. And in the future it will pass completely. (German) (translating) So even if you are married sex life, can be material too. Yes. That is also regulated. When the wife is menstrual period, so after five days you can have sex life, and as soon as she is pregnant, no more sex life. So sex life is meant for progeny, not for sense pleasure. Even the animals—dogs, cats—they have a period for sex life, and as soon as the female dog is pregnant, there will no more sex life. In certain months of the year they have sex life, not all the year. So even the dogs, they follow regulation, and we human being, we do not follow. The dogs have no restriction. The female dogs are naked, and they can capture anyone, anywhere, but they do not have unless there are certain period. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in spiritual life, restricted regulated sex life is essential. (German) (translating question) And religious is automatically regulated sex life? If it is religious life. If in the name of religion if it is sinful life, that is another thing. All right. Hare Krsna . . . (end) Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Christians) Cannot find? Yes. In German, just . . . Hmm. (reads translation in German) (German discussion with guest) Sex life, married couple, that is all right; not otherwise. That is sinful. (translated into German throughout) *Śrīla Prabhupāda, just his objection was that in this statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā doesn't clearly say no reason you should not have sex life outside of married life, they simply state religious principles, but this is . . . Religious principle means married life; otherwise cats and dogs. what is the . . . if everyone has without any limitation sex life, then what is the difference between cats and dogs? Religion means they are not cats and dogs, because religion is in the human society, not in the cats' and dogs' society. I agree that in the Christian . . . (indistinct) . . . also. And in the life who will come, will not be sexual life in the future in the perfection state. No there will no be the sexual life *Yes, in the spiritual life there is no sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex intercourse. There is no sex life. Although there is man and woman, but there is no sex intercourse. By chanting the glories of God there in the spiritual world, they get so much great pleasure that is far beyond this pleasure of sex life. Something best, then you forget lower*-grade pleasure. So this sex pleasure is lower-grade pleasure. It is not pleasure, it is illusion. But in material world this is the greatest pleasure. Therefore everyone, they are coming back to the sex pleasure. Everyone. Even so-called religionists and svāmīs and . . . they are coming down to the sex pleasure. Because in this material world that is the only highest pleasure. So, so long one will be attracted by the sex pleasure, it is still in the material world. And when one will be on the platform to spit (makes spitting noise) on sex pleasure, then his spiritual life begins. That is stated by Yāmunācārya: Yāmunācārya, a great saintly person, he was formerly big king, so he said: "Since I have become Kṛṣṇa conscious and enjoying, since that time, as soon as I remember even sex life, I spit on it and my mouth becomes turned." (makes sound of repugnance) This is the test. Not that you become very advanced spiritualist and at the same time advance in sex life. That is not. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra . . . (SB 11.2.42). That is the test, that as soon as you are advanced in spiritual life, all these materialistic habits will be rejected automatically. This is the test. Four things are material demands—eating, satisfaction of the tongue or belly and satisfaction of the genital, āhāra ; and sleeping and to become good defender, defense measure. These are material necessity. And the one who is spiritually advanced, these things will be reduced, almost nil. What Christ says, Jesus Christ, about sex life? What does he say? Only in the married life. Yes. Only. Yes. And in the future it will pass completely. (German) (translating) So even if you are married sex life, can be material too. Yes. That is also regulated. When the wife is menstrual period, so after five days you can have sex life, and as soon as she is pregnant, no more sex life. So sex life is meant for progeny, not for sense pleasure. Even the animals—dogs, cats—they have a period for sex life, and as soon as the female dog is pregnant, there will no more sex life. In certain months of the year they have sex life, not all the year. So even the dogs, they follow regulation, and we human being, we do not follow. The dogs have no restriction. The female dogs are naked, and they can capture anyone, anywhere, but they do not have unless there are certain period. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in spiritual life, restricted regulated sex life is essential. (German) (translating question) And religious is automatically regulated sex life? If it is religious life. If in the name of religion if it is sinful life, that is another thing. All right. Hare Krsna . . . (end) Conversation -- June 22, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Pater Emmanuel - a Benedictine monk) . . . see you. Thank you very much. (chuckles) I am so too. Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness. Thank you very much. It is translated in German too. Yes, yes, yes. This is just . . . I received a sample. (translates into German) Ah, yes, yes. (looks at book) Who is author? Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa? He is my disciple. Ah, yes. From India. Yes. He is in Cali . . . his description is there in the last page, his photograph. Oh, yes, yes. I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur. He is M.S. from Buffalo University, and he is Ph.D., chemistry, from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar. Yes, yes, yes. I see. You are coming from . . .? Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I come yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here. Oh. You can stay here. We have got place. Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow. He has a room upstairs. Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery. You are Roman Catholic? Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman rite, the Roman Catholic, and also the customs of life . . . it's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary. Like us. Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Very good. You know Greek language? Yes, I know. So you know the word Christo ? Yes, Christ. Christo means Christ. Yes, Christ, Kriza , Kristos , who is Christ by oil. Anointed. Ya , Anointed. Christos , Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Saint? It's the same word. The same word, Prabhupāda. Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, "anointed." Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa . Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting. Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa . And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor—the Sanskrit meaning, attractor. Attractor. *One who draws, draws everyone near. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa . And that all*-attractive drawer is God. Yes, I think so too. Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it? Yes, I think that Christ (German). He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God . . . the name of God is . . . what is it? Christ. Christ. The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ says to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why? We have name of God. Yes. What is that? We talk God, "Father" or "our Father." *No, "Father . . ." Just like your son may call you "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. Such*-and-such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, "God" is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the son of Christ, or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is . . . either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. (pause) Yes. When we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name . . . (German) He says when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos, in the . . . This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. Because a name of God . . . we know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God, because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality—God Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed, is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the name is there. And we are recommending, according to Vedic scripture, that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," or "God," along with His energy. He has got two energies—spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy." *This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti*-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti , or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation—I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God—that is pure religion. What is that? That is pure religion. Pure religion. Yes, I see. Yes. So pure religion means bhakti . Mukti , yes. Bhakti . Bhakti , yes. And mukti too. So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti , there is no mukti . Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti , he has already attained mukti . Yes, I see. *Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *(aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa . Māṁ ca ? Māṁ ca . I think he has.. 14.26. Translation in English? Let him . . . German translation will help you? Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but . . . (German) 14.26. You read the purport. (devotee reads in German) He wants chair? Give him. Yes, go on. (continues with German) Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Eh? Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Again? Brahman. *Brahman. Yes, He is Para*-brahman. Para-brahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman . . . Internalized Brahman. Yes, I see *. . . and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman, because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva*-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti , the impersonal Brahman; paramātmeti , the localized Paramātmā; and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences: the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead. That's very good. And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he become associate of God. (German) (translating for Pater Emmanuel) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way. No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names. Yes, but we are limited. *We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names—not one or two, but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara*-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise, He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. (German with devotee) Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God's love? But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not? I agree. Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real love. Will that mean that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source? (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like. No, I like to sit, thank you. Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes, I see. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position. Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient? Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point. Yes. The first point is that your commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not? Um . . . Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed. I personally agree. That's it. I personally agree. Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing. And you think it's a principal point, the top point. But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come. I understand. *This is called ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Adi 5.176). If you . . . I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken—the chicken or what is called, cock, that? Oh, the rooster, hens. Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen? Hen. Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that, "This mouthpiece is expensive, because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole—this side and that side—then business will go on. (German with devotees) In the Christian tradition . . . (German) (aside) Water. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God? (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says . . . the Christianity understands . . . *Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, "killing" and "murder." Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word "murder" instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly, openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first*-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. (German) He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking . . . I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill," the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. (German) No, I understand. Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? (German) (translating) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Plants? Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same? It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also not the same. So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable, because our Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty*-upahṛtam. (reads translation in German) *So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants, "Give Me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa*-viddham : sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine. But you cannot drink urine. So the injunction is, tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful . . . just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight, the commander-in-chief says: "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam ." So we are not sinful. And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Heh? Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Yes, the animal kingdom, in the nature's way . . . just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam . (aside) Find out. (break) . . . killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. Thank you. *Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting "Christ" or "Kṛṣṇa," the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant "Christ" or "Christo." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 2). He says that God has got many, multi names. Any one of them you chant, because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designatedless—if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name—then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu," "Here is Muslim," "Here is Christian," "Here is white," "Here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization, or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. I agree. And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads, just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting . . . you are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue; we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish; no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no illicit sex; and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo," or "Christo, Christo." Is there any objection? No. Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up . . . On my part, but I . . . *No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty*-four hours. (priest laughs) Actually, this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen, hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousand churches, but they are not going on. So this experience . . . in Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian priest in Boston, he issued one leaflet that, "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was, "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?" "How come it has expanded so quickly?" What was your answer to this? Answer? What the answer? Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German. No, no. The answer I gave, you do not remember? "Because they are intelligent." Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes. Yes, I understand. But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes? German guest: (German) He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence, but it is a question of humility. Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement? "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth." So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road if they see me, they immediately fall down flat, never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said: Yasya . . . "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." (German) He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others. Exercise upon others. But just like special respect and ordinary respect. But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others. I agree with all my heart. I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice. I am very thankful to you for this . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (priest leaves) (break) German guest: (German) *(translating) "Where is it written in Bhagavad*-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā ?" Yes. Yes. (aside) Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. German guest: I will read at home. You can tell me the . . . (German) What is the spelling? *dharma , d*-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (BG 7.11) Yes, Seventh Chapter. Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end) Conversation -- June 22, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Pater Emmanuel - a Benedictine monk) . . . see you. Thank you very much. (chuckles) I am so too. Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness. Thank you very much. It is translated in German too. Yes, yes, yes. This is just . . . I received a sample. (translates into German) Ah, yes, yes. (looks at book) Who is author? Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa? He is my disciple. Ah, yes. From India. Yes. He is in Cali . . . his description is there in the last page, his photograph. Oh, yes, yes. I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur. He is M.S. from Buffalo University, and he is Ph.D., chemistry, from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar. Yes, yes, yes. I see. You are coming from . . .? Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I come yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here. Oh. You can stay here. We have got place. Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow. He has a room upstairs. Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery. You are Roman Catholic? Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman rite, the Roman Catholic, and also the customs of life . . . it's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary. Like us. Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Very good. You know Greek language? Yes, I know. So you know the word Christo ? Yes, Christ. Christo means Christ. Yes, Christ, Kriza , Kristos , who is Christ by oil. Anointed. Ya , Anointed. Christos , Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Saint? It's the same word. The same word, Prabhupāda. Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, "anointed." Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa . Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting. Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa . And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor—the Sanskrit meaning, attractor. Attractor. *One who draws, draws everyone near. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa . And that all*-attractive drawer is God. Yes, I think so too. Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it? Yes, I think that Christ (German). He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God . . . the name of God is . . . what is it? Christ. Christ. The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ says to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why? We have name of God. Yes. What is that? We talk God, "Father" or "our Father." *No, "Father . . ." Just like your son may call you "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. Such*-and-such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, "God" is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the son of Christ, or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is . . . either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. (pause) Yes. When we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name . . . (German) He says when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos, in the . . . This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. Because a name of God . . . we know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God, because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality—God Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed, is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the name is there. And we are recommending, according to Vedic scripture, that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," or "God," along with His energy. He has got two energies—spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy." *This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti*-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti , or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation—I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God—that is pure religion. What is that? That is pure religion. Pure religion. Yes, I see. Yes. So pure religion means bhakti . Mukti , yes. Bhakti . Bhakti , yes. And mukti too. So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti , there is no mukti . Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti , he has already attained mukti . Yes, I see. *Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *(aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa . Māṁ ca ? Māṁ ca . I think he has.. 14.26. Translation in English? Let him . . . German translation will help you? Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but . . . (German) 14.26. You read the purport. (devotee reads in German) He wants chair? Give him. Yes, go on. (continues with German) Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Eh? Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Again? Brahman. *Brahman. Yes, He is Para*-brahman. Para-brahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman . . . Internalized Brahman. Yes, I see *. . . and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman, because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva*-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti , the impersonal Brahman; paramātmeti , the localized Paramātmā; and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences: the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead. That's very good. And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he become associate of God. (German) (translating for Pater Emmanuel) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way. No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names. Yes, but we are limited. *We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names—not one or two, but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara*-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise, He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. (German with devotee) Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God's love? But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not? I agree. Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real love. Will that mean that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source? (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like. No, I like to sit, thank you. Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes, I see. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position. Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient? Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point. Yes. The first point is that your commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not? Um . . . Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed. I personally agree. That's it. I personally agree. Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing. And you think it's a principal point, the top point. But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come. I understand. *This is called ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Adi 5.176). If you . . . I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken—the chicken or what is called, cock, that? Oh, the rooster, hens. Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen? Hen. Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that, "This mouthpiece is expensive, because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole—this side and that side—then business will go on. (German with devotees) In the Christian tradition . . . (German) (aside) Water. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God? (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says . . . the Christianity understands . . . *Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, "killing" and "murder." Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word "murder" instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly, openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first*-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. (German) He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking . . . I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill," the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. (German) No, I understand. Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? (German) (translating) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Plants? Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same? It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also not the same. So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable, because our Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty*-upahṛtam. (reads translation in German) *So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants, "Give Me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa*-viddham : sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine. But you cannot drink urine. So the injunction is, tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful . . . just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight, the commander-in-chief says: "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam ." So we are not sinful. And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Heh? Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Yes, the animal kingdom, in the nature's way . . . just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam . (aside) Find out. (break) . . . killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. Thank you. *Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting "Christ" or "Kṛṣṇa," the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant "Christ" or "Christo." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 2). He says that God has got many, multi names. Any one of them you chant, because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designatedless—if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name—then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu," "Here is Muslim," "Here is Christian," "Here is white," "Here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization, or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. I agree. And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads, just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting . . . you are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue; we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish; no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no illicit sex; and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo," or "Christo, Christo." Is there any objection? No. Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up . . . On my part, but I . . . *No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty*-four hours. (priest laughs) Actually, this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen, hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousand churches, but they are not going on. So this experience . . . in Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian priest in Boston, he issued one leaflet that, "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was, "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?" "How come it has expanded so quickly?" What was your answer to this? Answer? What the answer? Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German. No, no. The answer I gave, you do not remember? "Because they are intelligent." Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes. Yes, I understand. But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes? German guest: (German) He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence, but it is a question of humility. Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement? "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth." So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road if they see me, they immediately fall down flat, never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said: Yasya . . . "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." (German) He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others. Exercise upon others. But just like special respect and ordinary respect. But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others. I agree with all my heart. I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice. I am very thankful to you for this . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (priest leaves) (break) German guest: (German) *(translating) "Where is it written in Bhagavad*-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā ?" Yes. Yes. (aside) Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. German guest: I will read at home. You can tell me the . . . (German) What is the spelling? *dharma , d*-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (BG 7.11) Yes, Seventh Chapter. Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end) Arrival -- June 25, 1974, Melbourne (break) . . . special servant of God. I'm always servant of God, it is for you to recognize, that's all. I'm always servant of God, but it is for you to recognize. Have you any idea how much money the sect makes every year? We can spend all the money of the world. (laughter) Haribol! Unfortunately, you do not give us the money. (laughter) Haribol! What . . . how do you spend, your Grace?. We are spending at least, at the present moment, eight hundred thousand dollars per month. On what, Your Grace? On this propaganda, all over the world. And we are selling our books, not less than forty thousand dollars per month. Do you like to work? Yes. What's that? She wants to know if we like to work. *We are working, more than you—twenty*-four hours in the old age I am traveling all over the world. Haribol! But don’t you get a lot of your money from begging? *No, no. First of all you see. Working—you cannot work more than us, because I am an old man, seventy*-nine years old, and I am traveling always, all over the world, twice, thrice in a year. You cannot work so much, at least. Haribol! Prabhupāda. Just one more question please. Yes. Your Grace, your religion is a very ascetic one. Will you be living ascetically in Melbourne? We’re told you’ll be taken away in a Rolls Royce. Our religion does not say asceticism. Our religion teaches to love God. You can love God in this dress. There is no harm. *But it is a self*-denying religion, isn’t it?” *It is not self*-denying. We are using everything, why self-denying? We simply use whatever absolutely necessary, that’s all. But how do you justify trappings like a Rolls Royce and a very expensive house to live in? No, we don't want Rolls Royce, we can walk. But if you offer Rolls Royce, I have no objection. Wouldn’t it be better that you were traveling in a lot smaller car, less pretentious? Why, why? If you give me a Rolls Royce to travel, why shall I refuse it? It is my favor upon you, I accept this. Your Grace, would you tell us briefly how you founded the Hare Krishna in America. Well, at least whole world is now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Wherever you go they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Arrival -- June 25, 1974, Melbourne (break) . . . special servant of God. I'm always servant of God, it is for you to recognize, that's all. I'm always servant of God, but it is for you to recognize. Have you any idea how much money the sect makes every year? We can spend all the money of the world. (laughter) Haribol! Unfortunately, you do not give us the money. (laughter) Haribol! What . . . how do you spend, your Grace?. We are spending at least, at the present moment, eight hundred thousand dollars per month. On what, Your Grace? On this propaganda, all over the world. And we are selling our books, not less than forty thousand dollars per month. Do you like to work? Yes. What's that? She wants to know if we like to work. *We are working, more than you—twenty*-four hours in the old age I am traveling all over the world. Haribol! But don’t you get a lot of your money from begging? *No, no. First of all you see. Working—you cannot work more than us, because I am an old man, seventy*-nine years old, and I am traveling always, all over the world, twice, thrice in a year. You cannot work so much, at least. Haribol! Prabhupāda. Just one more question please. Yes. Your Grace, your religion is a very ascetic one. Will you be living ascetically in Melbourne? We’re told you’ll be taken away in a Rolls Royce. Our religion does not say asceticism. Our religion teaches to love God. You can love God in this dress. There is no harm. *But it is a self*-denying religion, isn’t it?” *It is not self*-denying. We are using everything, why self-denying? We simply use whatever absolutely necessary, that’s all. But how do you justify trappings like a Rolls Royce and a very expensive house to live in? No, we don't want Rolls Royce, we can walk. But if you offer Rolls Royce, I have no objection. Wouldn’t it be better that you were traveling in a lot smaller car, less pretentious? Why, why? If you give me a Rolls Royce to travel, why shall I refuse it? It is my favor upon you, I accept this. Your Grace, would you tell us briefly how you founded the Hare Krishna in America. Well, at least whole world is now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Wherever you go they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne (Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots' Church) Your people have a serenity that many Western people don't have. What . . . what is the secret of serenity? And is it . . . I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such. Surrender is not material. Serenity . . . Eh? To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness? Communist? The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from? From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. From what? Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one . . . Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. *Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā . These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God," no. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they . . . one of the qualification is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty*-five qualifications of a devotee. *Twenty*-five? Yes. What are some of the others? (aside) Have you got the list? *Friendly . . . uh, it's in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Right here, Teachings of . . . Yes. And you, obviously, would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What . . .? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? No, it is practical. What is it? (reading) It says: "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not . . ." First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then? "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert. And he is silent." *Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia. I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Collins Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty*-one medical men on . . . and women, mainly men, on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing? Hmm, no. Practically we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees . . . we are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see? Well, normal doctors. But now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works at the physical level, and the psychiatrist works at the emotional, mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus . . . Spiritual level means to cure his material disease. Yes. The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. I'm sorry, I don't quite follow that. He said the real disease is the material condition, in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Yes. So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Umm . . . yes, I see. On the point of . . . in reading this very interesting magazine, and this . . . *(aside) You find out this verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and with beans in particular, there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were prayed for . . . *Hmm. (aside) Find out, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Translation: "Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental and fruitive activities." What does devotional service mean in that context? Purport? Purport: "Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman, spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities." "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it? Yes. As opposed to material. And . . . So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service. Always. Always. Then they'll be free from birth, death, old age and disease. Yes. And . . . were the papers correct in reporting you as . . . well, they reported opposite things that . . . but you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is . . . death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form? Is that it? Yes. As soon as the . . . everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what was said here in the . . . referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage. Only the sex allowed only for begetting nice children. Yes. You don't feel that . . . And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex. And that is out. That is not good. What is your attitude to Jesus? I have already explained in the meeting. Yes. We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's . . . Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean . . . Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He . . . Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo, or Kristo, or Kṛṣṇa. Yes? Hmm. Another thing: We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement, and we really congratulate you, sir, (Prabhupāda chuckles) on the very fine work that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved, because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain . . . I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on, that there are many thousands . . . In Africa, in China, in Japan. Everywhere. And now, how do you explain this? Why are people . . .? Why are . . .? Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation. They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they . . . you have all ages? Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive. Yes, yes, I see. And I was interested . . . I take it that you feel—forgive me if I'm not using the right expression—but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead. No, no. No, we have no caste system. Well, I'm sorry. The brahmin , the śūdras and so on, per se. *Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to . . . (aside) Find out the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Your base there is in Bombay? My birthplace is in Calcutta. Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago. I um . . . You have been in Calcutta? Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this . . . Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they pass through Calcutta or Bombay, like that. That's right. Yes. We come by air. Was there some reference? Yes. *Translation: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non*-doer, being unchangeable." Read the purport. "The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brāhmaṇas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kṣatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaiśyas , are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the śūdras , or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature." *"In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Kṛṣṇa does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above*-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, is above even the brāhmaṇas , because a brāhmaṇa by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but only a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brāhmaṇa and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, becomes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaiṣṇava." "Kṛṣṇa consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa, namely Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, etc. However, as Kṛṣṇa is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species." Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some five and some ten. And . . . (aside) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (sounds of wrapping paper) You can close the door. Close the door. So all our disciples, they are young men. Yes, I noticed. Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time. (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, some were given a few, and some were . . . Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then . . . What I'd like to follow through . . . I'd like to hear this, but . . . Talents are divided into three categories: the brahmin category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here. And this . . . What are the qualifications of a brahmin . Symptoms. *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *This is first*-quality man. Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just . . . *Yes, yes. When . . . when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first*-class man. Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of Communism, Your Grace? Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state. Yes. But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth—everything belongs to God—that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area . . . just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. "National" means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the Communist or capitalist, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect. Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then, they said: "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage—the same wage is paid to all, however long they work, because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from our point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier . . . *The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is not limited within Christian or Communist or capitalist. No. *No. The principle . . . wherever there are these talented person, he is to be considered as first*-class man. He does not say that, "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christian . . ." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa , these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest, because I am making them brahmin . My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brahmin . So the Indian, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion because he's accepting brahmin from outside." So actually they're also not aware . . . creation of God . . . here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia—it is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brahmin . That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." This is applicable to every man, not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, even the Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community? Yes. And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area. Right. That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere. Yes. Yes. Just like Christ says that, "Thou should be . . . one should be meek and humble to go to back to home, back to . . ." Eh? It is not? Yes. So this is for everyone. Yes. Blessed are the meek. Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone. Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired; you've got a big day tomorrow. I mustn't keep you, if I may. Just here, please wait. Little, take little. (aside) Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You had been today there today in meeting? Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice . . . You were all present? Yes. You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you? Yes. You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it, tomorrow? I'll see something of it. These flowers are very nice. They are called . . .? Daffodil? Daffodils. Oh. No, jonquils, aren't they? Jonquils. Very . . . just see how God's artistic brain. Hmm. Yeah. You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere, God, nothing but God. Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything you see God? Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God. Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter. You can, you can pick up. Made out of what? Mostly out of milk and butter. Milk preparation. Thank you. And, um . . . Yes, you can eat. Now? Yes. Thank you. (eats) Very juicy. Hmm. Very juicy. Hmm. (laughs) All of them, give each one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. (to guests) Do you like? Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Something quite different. Hmm. Here, perhaps you can use this. Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You . . . you . . . you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all? No. Why not eggs? Because . . . We are not even vegetarian. You're not. *No. We are negative of vegetarian and non*-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda . Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian, because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental. Yes. Yes. Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have appointment. Thank you. That's . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne (Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots' Church) Your people have a serenity that many Western people don't have. What . . . what is the secret of serenity? And is it . . . I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such. Surrender is not material. Serenity . . . Eh? To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness? Communist? The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from? From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. From what? Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one . . . Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. *Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā . These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God," no. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they . . . one of the qualification is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty*-five qualifications of a devotee. *Twenty*-five? Yes. What are some of the others? (aside) Have you got the list? *Friendly . . . uh, it's in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Right here, Teachings of . . . Yes. And you, obviously, would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What . . .? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? No, it is practical. What is it? (reading) It says: "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not . . ." First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then? "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert. And he is silent." *Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia. I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Collins Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty*-one medical men on . . . and women, mainly men, on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing? Hmm, no. Practically we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees . . . we are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see? Well, normal doctors. But now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works at the physical level, and the psychiatrist works at the emotional, mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus . . . Spiritual level means to cure his material disease. Yes. The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. I'm sorry, I don't quite follow that. He said the real disease is the material condition, in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Yes. So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Umm . . . yes, I see. On the point of . . . in reading this very interesting magazine, and this . . . *(aside) You find out this verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and with beans in particular, there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were prayed for . . . *Hmm. (aside) Find out, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Translation: "Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental and fruitive activities." What does devotional service mean in that context? Purport? Purport: "Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman, spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities." "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it? Yes. As opposed to material. And . . . So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service. Always. Always. Then they'll be free from birth, death, old age and disease. Yes. And . . . were the papers correct in reporting you as . . . well, they reported opposite things that . . . but you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is . . . death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form? Is that it? Yes. As soon as the . . . everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what was said here in the . . . referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage. Only the sex allowed only for begetting nice children. Yes. You don't feel that . . . And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex. And that is out. That is not good. What is your attitude to Jesus? I have already explained in the meeting. Yes. We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's . . . Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean . . . Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He . . . Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo, or Kristo, or Kṛṣṇa. Yes? Hmm. Another thing: We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement, and we really congratulate you, sir, (Prabhupāda chuckles) on the very fine work that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved, because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain . . . I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on, that there are many thousands . . . In Africa, in China, in Japan. Everywhere. And now, how do you explain this? Why are people . . .? Why are . . .? Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation. They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they . . . you have all ages? Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive. Yes, yes, I see. And I was interested . . . I take it that you feel—forgive me if I'm not using the right expression—but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead. No, no. No, we have no caste system. Well, I'm sorry. The brahmin , the śūdras and so on, per se. *Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to . . . (aside) Find out the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Your base there is in Bombay? My birthplace is in Calcutta. Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago. I um . . . You have been in Calcutta? Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this . . . Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they pass through Calcutta or Bombay, like that. That's right. Yes. We come by air. Was there some reference? Yes. *Translation: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non*-doer, being unchangeable." Read the purport. "The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brāhmaṇas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kṣatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaiśyas , are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the śūdras , or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature." *"In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Kṛṣṇa does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above*-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, is above even the brāhmaṇas , because a brāhmaṇa by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but only a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brāhmaṇa and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, becomes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaiṣṇava." "Kṛṣṇa consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa, namely Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, etc. However, as Kṛṣṇa is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species." Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some five and some ten. And . . . (aside) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (sounds of wrapping paper) You can close the door. Close the door. So all our disciples, they are young men. Yes, I noticed. Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time. (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, some were given a few, and some were . . . Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then . . . What I'd like to follow through . . . I'd like to hear this, but . . . Talents are divided into three categories: the brahmin category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here. And this . . . What are the qualifications of a brahmin . Symptoms. *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *This is first*-quality man. Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just . . . *Yes, yes. When . . . when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first*-class man. Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of Communism, Your Grace? Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state. Yes. But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth—everything belongs to God—that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area . . . just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. "National" means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the Communist or capitalist, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect. Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then, they said: "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage—the same wage is paid to all, however long they work, because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from our point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier . . . *The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is not limited within Christian or Communist or capitalist. No. *No. The principle . . . wherever there are these talented person, he is to be considered as first*-class man. He does not say that, "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christian . . ." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa , these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest, because I am making them brahmin . My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brahmin . So the Indian, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion because he's accepting brahmin from outside." So actually they're also not aware . . . creation of God . . . here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia—it is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brahmin . That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." This is applicable to every man, not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, even the Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community? Yes. And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area. Right. That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere. Yes. Yes. Just like Christ says that, "Thou should be . . . one should be meek and humble to go to back to home, back to . . ." Eh? It is not? Yes. So this is for everyone. Yes. Blessed are the meek. Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone. Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired; you've got a big day tomorrow. I mustn't keep you, if I may. Just here, please wait. Little, take little. (aside) Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You had been today there today in meeting? Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice . . . You were all present? Yes. You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you? Yes. You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it, tomorrow? I'll see something of it. These flowers are very nice. They are called . . .? Daffodil? Daffodils. Oh. No, jonquils, aren't they? Jonquils. Very . . . just see how God's artistic brain. Hmm. Yeah. You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere, God, nothing but God. Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything you see God? Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God. Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter. You can, you can pick up. Made out of what? Mostly out of milk and butter. Milk preparation. Thank you. And, um . . . Yes, you can eat. Now? Yes. Thank you. (eats) Very juicy. Hmm. Very juicy. Hmm. (laughs) All of them, give each one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. (to guests) Do you like? Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Something quite different. Hmm. Here, perhaps you can use this. Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You . . . you . . . you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all? No. Why not eggs? Because . . . We are not even vegetarian. You're not. *No. We are negative of vegetarian and non*-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda . Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian, because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental. Yes. Yes. Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have appointment. Thank you. That's . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne . . . dollar, three quarter. Yes. And in your country . . . That would cost around fifteen dollars or something. Just see. Still, India, I am surprised. It's good quality as well. *Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, utmost three rupees. Now the things have increased price. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the USA the binding cost is very, very . . . just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad*-gītā , hardbound, they charge ten dollar, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cent, and in America they charge six dollars. Hmm. So all the fathers clapped for long. Yes. They appreciated. Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus. Yes, why not? He appreciated that very much. Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena . Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena. For . . . in one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for person. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect to even an ant. Therefore that St. Francis . . . Yes. *I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God—anyway, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood . . . actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind—that the grain of rice is not man*-made; it is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy, so God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything . . . therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya ( BG 7.8). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda . . . ānandamaya. That God is ānanda . So there is the sample of ānanda . *So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ? What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only . . . every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ . . . we pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and every thing. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇava is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa : This is the statement of Lord Śiva. "Worship of God, Viṣṇu, is the highest, topmost method of worship. And greater than the topmost worship is to worship Viṣṇu's paraphernalia. Viṣṇu's devotee, Viṣṇu's temple, Viṣṇu's dear . . ." Just like we worship tulasī . Why? Because it is very dear to Viṣṇu. Tadīyānām . Viṣṇu likes, Kṛṣṇa likes. When, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), the tulasī flower, leaf is offered to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes very pleased. Therefore we love tulasī , because He likes. In common word they say: "If you love me, love my dog." I have seen people do that. One man is going with his dog. His friends meet, and if the friends pats the dog, the man becomes pleased. Is it not? Yes. *Yes. So . . . just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately: "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . What is the meaning? "By the mercy of the spiritual master one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa." Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased, "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified, but because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God. Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that . . . No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone. But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee, even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if . . . *That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette—comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect, "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that, "He's my enemy." That . . . the etiquette according to Vedic civilization, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto*-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum . . . that was . . . just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with . . ." (break) Unless one of the kings die . . . (break) (break) . . . a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have . . . where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha . (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha . Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas , they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa says: "It is I am"—they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say: "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha . Therefore it is said . . . the mūḍha cannot explain all . . . and at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future, the future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history . . .? In the history the future is past. This is common sense. *So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum, that future will never come. And they still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come, and still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha . This is the explanation of mūḍha . It is just like somebody offered you a post*-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say: "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect. In Australia? *Yes. That Attorney, in the . . . Attorney*-General of the Federal Government. You saw that? I didn't see the paper. They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much. I think so, yes. This gentleman, he's also a priestly . . . *At seven*-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high ranking in the Church. What is the time now? Ten after six. Quarter after six. (end) Conversation A -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne . . . dollar, three quarter. Yes. And in your country . . . That would cost around fifteen dollars or something. Just see. Still, India, I am surprised. It's good quality as well. *Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, utmost three rupees. Now the things have increased price. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the USA the binding cost is very, very . . . just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad*-gītā , hardbound, they charge ten dollar, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cent, and in America they charge six dollars. Hmm. So all the fathers clapped for long. Yes. They appreciated. Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus. Yes, why not? He appreciated that very much. Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena . Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena. For . . . in one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for person. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect to even an ant. Therefore that St. Francis . . . Yes. *I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God—anyway, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood . . . actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind—that the grain of rice is not man*-made; it is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy, so God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything . . . therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya ( BG 7.8). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda . . . ānandamaya. That God is ānanda . So there is the sample of ānanda . *So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ? What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only . . . every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ . . . we pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and every thing. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇava is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa : This is the statement of Lord Śiva. "Worship of God, Viṣṇu, is the highest, topmost method of worship. And greater than the topmost worship is to worship Viṣṇu's paraphernalia. Viṣṇu's devotee, Viṣṇu's temple, Viṣṇu's dear . . ." Just like we worship tulasī . Why? Because it is very dear to Viṣṇu. Tadīyānām . Viṣṇu likes, Kṛṣṇa likes. When, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), the tulasī flower, leaf is offered to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes very pleased. Therefore we love tulasī , because He likes. In common word they say: "If you love me, love my dog." I have seen people do that. One man is going with his dog. His friends meet, and if the friends pats the dog, the man becomes pleased. Is it not? Yes. *Yes. So . . . just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately: "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . What is the meaning? "By the mercy of the spiritual master one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa." Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased, "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified, but because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God. Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that . . . No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone. But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee, even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if . . . *That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette—comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect, "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that, "He's my enemy." That . . . the etiquette according to Vedic civilization, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto*-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum . . . that was . . . just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with . . ." (break) Unless one of the kings die . . . (break) (break) . . . a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have . . . where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha . (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha . Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas , they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa says: "It is I am"—they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say: "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha . Therefore it is said . . . the mūḍha cannot explain all . . . and at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future, the future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history . . .? In the history the future is past. This is common sense. *So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum, that future will never come. And they still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come, and still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha . This is the explanation of mūḍha . It is just like somebody offered you a post*-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say: "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect. In Australia? *Yes. That Attorney, in the . . . Attorney*-General of the Federal Government. You saw that? I didn't see the paper. They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much. I think so, yes. This gentleman, he's also a priestly . . . *At seven*-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high ranking in the Church. What is the time now? Ten after six. Quarter after six. (end) Garden Conversation -- July 0, 1974, New Vrindaban, USA I don't think we have to worry about your disciples being in the criminal courts now do we? We don't have to worry about that. You have fine followers here. Yes. This community, fine community. Yes. Good people. (break) A magistrate or a lawyer is already graduate. (break) If he is a lawyer it is to be understood that he has passed his graduate examination. Similarly, if one is vaiṣṇava it is to be understood that he has already become a brahmin . Is it clear? Why we offer you the sacred thread? That means there is brahminical standard. Unless one is brahmin he cannot become vaiṣṇava . Just like unless one is graduate, he cannot become lawyer. So as a lawyer means he is already a graduate of the university, similarly a vaiṣṇava means he is already a brahmin . So therefore the vaiṣṇavas , they're all, they should have no contamination of passion and ignorance, therefore . . . Yes. They shall be, they shall be on the platform of . . . Yes, vaiṣṇava means, bhakti means, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa ( SB 11.2.42), bhakti means realization of God consciousness. And the symptom of God consciousness is that he is averse to all material activities. He has no interest. So then the brāhmaṇa has no interest in being, excuse me, the vaiṣṇava has no interest in being a brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra , but he takes some specific occupation . . . *That is, he is actually on the topmost position. He has no interest. But so long he is not so perfect, he has interest. Therefore that interest should be corroborated, or, what is called . . . adjusted according to the brahminical, kṣatriya . . . (break) . . . because, in that time, the people are so rotten, that they could not understand what is God. Therefore he took up that "First of all let them become sinless. Then one day will come, he will understand what is God. Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." Now, the people at that time are killers. Otherwise why does he say: "Thou shall not kill." Why this first commandment? Because full of killers. Not very good society. If in a society constantly there is killing, murder, is that very good society? So therefore he first of all asked not to kill, first of all let them become sinless, then they will understand what is God. Here is, Bhagavad*-gita confirms: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has become completely sinless. So God consciousness is meant for the person who is sinless. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is cheating. A God-conscious person means he has no sin. He cannot be within the jurisdiction of sinful activities. That is God consciousness. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is not possible. So everyone can understand whether I am actually God conscious or not by judging his own activities. There is no need of asking for external certificate. Whether I am fixed up on these principles: no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intox . . . if one is sincere he can judge himself whether I am actually on the platform or not. Just like you are hungry, if you have eaten something then you can feel strength, satisfaction. There is no need of external certificate. Similarly, God consciousness means whether you are freed from all sinful activities. Then you'll become. A God conscious person will not be inclined to any sinful activity. (break) (end) Garden Conversation -- July 0, 1974, New Vrindaban, USA I don't think we have to worry about your disciples being in the criminal courts now do we? We don't have to worry about that. You have fine followers here. Yes. This community, fine community. Yes. Good people. (break) A magistrate or a lawyer is already graduate. (break) If he is a lawyer it is to be understood that he has passed his graduate examination. Similarly, if one is vaiṣṇava it is to be understood that he has already become a brahmin . Is it clear? Why we offer you the sacred thread? That means there is brahminical standard. Unless one is brahmin he cannot become vaiṣṇava . Just like unless one is graduate, he cannot become lawyer. So as a lawyer means he is already a graduate of the university, similarly a vaiṣṇava means he is already a brahmin . So therefore the vaiṣṇavas , they're all, they should have no contamination of passion and ignorance, therefore . . . Yes. They shall be, they shall be on the platform of . . . Yes, vaiṣṇava means, bhakti means, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa ( SB 11.2.42), bhakti means realization of God consciousness. And the symptom of God consciousness is that he is averse to all material activities. He has no interest. So then the brāhmaṇa has no interest in being, excuse me, the vaiṣṇava has no interest in being a brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra , but he takes some specific occupation . . . *That is, he is actually on the topmost position. He has no interest. But so long he is not so perfect, he has interest. Therefore that interest should be corroborated, or, what is called . . . adjusted according to the brahminical, kṣatriya . . . (break) . . . because, in that time, the people are so rotten, that they could not understand what is God. Therefore he took up that "First of all let them become sinless. Then one day will come, he will understand what is God. Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." Now, the people at that time are killers. Otherwise why does he say: "Thou shall not kill." Why this first commandment? Because full of killers. Not very good society. If in a society constantly there is killing, murder, is that very good society? So therefore he first of all asked not to kill, first of all let them become sinless, then they will understand what is God. Here is, Bhagavad*-gita confirms: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has become completely sinless. So God consciousness is meant for the person who is sinless. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is cheating. A God-conscious person means he has no sin. He cannot be within the jurisdiction of sinful activities. That is God consciousness. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is not possible. So everyone can understand whether I am actually God conscious or not by judging his own activities. There is no need of asking for external certificate. Whether I am fixed up on these principles: no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intox . . . if one is sincere he can judge himself whether I am actually on the platform or not. Just like you are hungry, if you have eaten something then you can feel strength, satisfaction. There is no need of external certificate. Similarly, God consciousness means whether you are freed from all sinful activities. Then you'll become. A God conscious person will not be inclined to any sinful activity. (break) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1974, Melbourne That is sense. Otherwise nonsense (laughs), that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said? "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." This is sense. (pause) Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled. Then unfortunate. Yes. Continue. (laughter) Who can check? I want to understand in this sense, though, exactly how far your instructions are, because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly . . . You are old student. Yeah. If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like . . . Yeah. *You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say . . . (pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then is no advance. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhim sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatih (BG 16.23). This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man. No. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect. (aside) Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost. Naṣṭa , this word is used. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not today. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now last night, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. *Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa): "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is kṛṣṇa-kathā , Kṛṣṇa's. sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā : "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good; *it is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, it is . . . there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇavism. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas , Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says: "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He cannot chant. That is a show*-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no. Sanātana Gosvāmī, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than . . . in other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many other, they could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ : "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is . . . there are so many . . . such a big instruction book. It is not that whimsical. But still, we recommend that, "Go on chanting." This will help you, anyone. That is also good. It is exactly like that if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time; only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes, you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied, "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood would dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied—"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"—that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. It require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right? Yes, that's true. Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. (break) You must get the flame, otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "phat, phat, phat" As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it, let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man . . . he was a yogī . So he approached—it is not story; *it is fact—approached one big man that . . . as people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogī , "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can, in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga ." So, "How long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night, or as long as you . . ." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, for one night, then I shall give you such*-and-such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said: "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not . . . either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no, sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa ? During Kārttika month they . . . this is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said: "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) (chuckles) That lamp was three miles away, and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that, "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." (aside) Hmm. What is that? Some presentation? Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. (offers obeisances) Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that, "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not . . .?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw, "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense?" "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply, so that man was paid. (laughter) So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire, and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ . . . (BG 16.23). (aside) Hmm. So what are these things? I noticed this morning while . . . (break) . . . on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) (laughing) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head, and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice. This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney—a scarf for you to wear in the cold. Hmm. That's nice. And I also brought one from me. That's nice. And some mangoes . . . Oh, that is good. . . . from Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are really difficult to get. Mangoes, very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not? Yes. *It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya*-ca . . . two fruits. One fruit is the Neem tree fruit. You have seen Neem tree? In not your country. Neem tree you have seen in India, and their fruits . . . A little bitter. Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow, they eat that Neem tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this Neem tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden—there is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere, and the crows . . . you have seen it? Yes. *They enjoy that. Tad*-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . (aside) Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Part One? *Na tad*-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ (SB 1.5.10). Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. (break) *. . . no understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā , you will find the first beginning of teaching— dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . Find out. *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education, because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. (to Bhūrijana) She has also gone, your wife? No, she will come back. That is, we . . . our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram (BG 2.13). Dehina , not the deha; dehi . (break) We are not working on deha. Deha means body, and dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the defect. Therefore it takes very, very long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body . . ." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education. They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education? Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions, or nowadays meditation, like that. *Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so*-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close it. It is closed? Close the blind? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed. Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break) . . . have to strain the juice from this mango? And did you do it? No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. (break) *. . . human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice—first*-quality rice, second-quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third-quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bāsmatī . I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, " Babu . . ." babu means master—"this rice is not suitable for us." That fine bāsmatī rice, he did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have you seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes, "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. (break) . . . the big animals, the living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for. *No. Classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam ," life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). At that stage, samatā , equality, when one is brahma-bhūta , spiritualized. Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? Dipaka? No, he has gone. He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him. All right. No, no. I can send for him. It's all right. No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now? Ten to eight. (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1974, Melbourne That is sense. Otherwise nonsense (laughs), that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said? "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." This is sense. (pause) Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled. Then unfortunate. Yes. Continue. (laughter) Who can check? I want to understand in this sense, though, exactly how far your instructions are, because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly . . . You are old student. Yeah. If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like . . . Yeah. *You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say . . . (pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then is no advance. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhim sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatih (BG 16.23). This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man. No. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect. (aside) Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost. Naṣṭa , this word is used. "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not today. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now last night, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. *Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa): "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is kṛṣṇa-kathā , Kṛṣṇa's. sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā : "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good; *it is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, it is . . . there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇavism. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas , Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says: "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He cannot chant. That is a show*-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no. Sanātana Gosvāmī, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than . . . in other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many other, they could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ : "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is . . . there are so many . . . such a big instruction book. It is not that whimsical. But still, we recommend that, "Go on chanting." This will help you, anyone. That is also good. It is exactly like that if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time; only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes, you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied, "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood would dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied—"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"—that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. It require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right? Yes, that's true. Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. (break) You must get the flame, otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "phat, phat, phat" As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it, let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man . . . he was a yogī . So he approached—it is not story; *it is fact—approached one big man that . . . as people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogī , "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can, in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga ." So, "How long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night, or as long as you . . ." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, for one night, then I shall give you such*-and-such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said: "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not . . . either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no, sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa ? During Kārttika month they . . . this is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said: "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) (chuckles) That lamp was three miles away, and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that, "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." (aside) Hmm. What is that? Some presentation? Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. (offers obeisances) Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that, "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not . . .?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw, "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense?" "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply, so that man was paid. (laughter) So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire, and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ . . . (BG 16.23). (aside) Hmm. So what are these things? I noticed this morning while . . . (break) . . . on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) (laughing) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head, and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice. This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney—a scarf for you to wear in the cold. Hmm. That's nice. And I also brought one from me. That's nice. And some mangoes . . . Oh, that is good. . . . from Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are really difficult to get. Mangoes, very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not? Yes. *It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya*-ca . . . two fruits. One fruit is the Neem tree fruit. You have seen Neem tree? In not your country. Neem tree you have seen in India, and their fruits . . . A little bitter. Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow, they eat that Neem tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this Neem tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden—there is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere, and the crows . . . you have seen it? Yes. *They enjoy that. Tad*-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . (aside) Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Part One? *Na tad*-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ (SB 1.5.10). Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. (break) *. . . no understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā , you will find the first beginning of teaching— dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . Find out. *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education, because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. (to Bhūrijana) She has also gone, your wife? No, she will come back. That is, we . . . our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram (BG 2.13). Dehina , not the deha; dehi . (break) We are not working on deha. Deha means body, and dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the defect. Therefore it takes very, very long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body . . ." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education. They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education? Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions, or nowadays meditation, like that. *Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so*-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close it. It is closed? Close the blind? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed. Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break) . . . have to strain the juice from this mango? And did you do it? No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. (break) *. . . human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice—first*-quality rice, second-quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third-quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bāsmatī . I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, " Babu . . ." babu means master—"this rice is not suitable for us." That fine bāsmatī rice, he did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have you seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes, "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. (break) . . . the big animals, the living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for. *No. Classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam ," life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). At that stage, samatā , equality, when one is brahma-bhūta , spiritualized. Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? Dipaka? No, he has gone. He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him. All right. No, no. I can send for him. It's all right. No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now? Ten to eight. (end) Conversation -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne (Conversation with Scientists) Dr. Harrap. How do you do? And Dr. Muncey. Dr. Muncey. Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse . . . (aside) You have got first part? First part. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā . Idam ? *Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . (devotees search for verse) Hmm. Read. Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Purport. *"Human intellect is developed for advancement in learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamoured by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection, or self-realization, depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by the viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies, because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them." "When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all non different from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous topics, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification." *"Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavour to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful, and all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All so-called knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all other similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana , or glorification of the Lord." This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness: everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection. It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world, but we don't seem to have got their life qualities good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this. Excuse me, do you mind if I record this? Eh? They can record it? Oh, yes, why not? This stand's got a complicated contraption here. It makes very little contact . . . (indistinct) You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the Existence of the Supreme Scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this. (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19) "When we think calmly and carefully about this wonderful universe, we can see that everything is working under the control of a supreme brain. The arrangements in nature are perfectly ordered. Things would be at random without the careful planning of a scientific and engineering brain. It is a common understanding that there is a cause behind each action. A machine cannot run without an operator. Modern scientists are very proud of automation, but there is a scientific brain behind automation also. Even Albert Einstein agreed that there is a perfect brain behind all the natural physical laws. When we talk about 'brain' and 'operator,' these terms imply a person. They cannot be impersonal. One may inquire who this person is. He is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist and supreme engineer, under whose kind will the whole cosmos is working. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: 'The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.' " (BG 9.8) *"Now let us look a few samples from the Lord's creation, and upon contemplating these exemplary aspects, one should develop a better understanding and appreciation of the existence of the most powerful brain, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The sun that we see daily is the nearest star. It is one hundred earth diameters across and is ninety*-three million miles away from the earth. Every day the sun supplies the solar system with a tremendous amount of heat, light and energy. A quote, 'The very tiny fraction of the sun's energy that falls on the earth—estimated at about five parts in a hundred million million—is about 100,000 times greater than all the energy used in the world's industries. The total energy the sun emits in a single second would be sufficient to keep a 1 kilowatt electric fire burning for 10,000 million million years. Put in a different way, the energy the sun emits in one second is greater than the whole amount of energy the human species has consumed throughout its entire history, a quote from Fred Hoyle astronomy, 'Yet it is only one of the countless number of stars floating in the sky in every direction. With the material scientific brain, the thermal, electrical and nuclear powerhouses have been made. These can supply heat, light and energy to a small, limited extent, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is supplying the whole planet with an unlimited source of energy just from one sun. Kṛṣṇa says: 'The splendour of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendour of the moon and the splendour of fire are also from Me.' (BG 15.12) The planets are revolving in a systematic path around the sun. Even within the smallest atom, the electrons and the protons are orbiting around the nucleus in a perfect manner." *"Thus, from the submicroscopic realm of the atom to the expanding reaches of the galactic objects, this material universe is running like intricate, well*-oiled clockwork according to great natural physical laws and principles. Scientists have gained great acclaim for making a few spaceships, whereas Kṛṣṇa effortlessly produces gigantic spaceships, such as planets and stars, which are perfectly equipped and maintained. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni dhārayāmy aham ojāsa : 'I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit.' (BG 15.13) The laws made by the supreme brain always remain perfect; they are never violated. We never see the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. The colourful rainbow that we observe when the sun is shining during a shower is only visible when the sun is behind the observer, due to the laws of refraction. Also, each year the seasons change quite periodically, producing symptoms unique to each season." "Now let us look into some aspects of the Lord's creation at the molecular level. Chemists find that the different colours in flowers are due to chemicals called anthocyanins, and the different aromas are mostly due to chemicals called terpenes and terpenoid compounds. The molecular frameworks for these compounds range from very simple structures to very complex networks. Camphor, for example, is a terpenoid compound, and the characteristic odour of lemons is due to the molecule called limonene, which is one of the simple terpenes. Similarly, the characteristic colours in carrots and tomatoes are due to molecules called carotenoids, which are higher forms of terpenes. The molecular framework for each definite colour or aroma is wonderfully unique. A little change in position of a few atoms in the molecule, a little variation in the geometry of the molecule or a slight change in the size of the molecule can cause a colour to change from orange to red, a mild, pleasing aroma to become repellent and pungent, and a flavor to change from sweet to bitter." "On one extreme we find the smallest molecule, the hydrogen molecule, which contains only two atoms of hydrogen. On the other extreme we find giant molecules such as the proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA), the building blocks of all living material bodies, which contain innumerable atoms made for a definite function. Similarly, the crystalline pattern of each different molecule is unique. The geometrical shape for sodium chloride (common salt), for example, is cubical. Charcoal, graphite and diamonds are all derived from the same element, carbon, and yet the shining and transparent diamond is extremely hard, whereas graphite is soft, black and opaque. This is due to the difference in the crystalline forms of these molecules. In the crystal lattice of the diamond, each carbon atom is tetrahedrally surrounded by four other carbon atoms at a distance of 1.54 angstroms (one angstrom = 10-8sq cm) In graphite, by contrast, the three bonds of each carbon atom are distorted so as to lie in the same plane, the fourth bond being directed perpendicularly to this plane to link with a carbon atom of the neighbouring layer." *"In this way we can cite innumerable examples of molecular networks so fantastically and delicately arranged that chemists cannot but wonder about the most expert hand and brain who is making all these wonderfully artistic arrangements in His laboratory. Indeed, the intelligence and ability of the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are inconceivable ( acintya ). There is no scientist who can deny it. How, then, can any chemist abstain from appreciating the wonderful works of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa? In Bhagavad*-gītā we find: 'One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.' " (BG 8.9) *"At best, scientists can only try to imitate the wonderful artistic works of the Supreme Lord. They cannot even do this properly, and most of their attempts lead to failure and disappointment. Even when they are partly successful, it is only with the greatest difficulty. For example, Professor R. B. Woodward of Harvard, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry (1965) and Professor A. Eschenmoser of Zurich took eleven years to synthesize the vitamin B12 molecule. Altogether, ninety*-nine scientists from nineteen different countries were involved just to accomplish this one small task. Yet Kṛṣṇa is making all these complex molecules at will." "Interestingly enough, when scientists fail again and again in their attempts to make something, they consciously or unconsciously pray to God for help. Does this not indicate the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and the natural subordinate position of all other living entities? A crude example is the explosion that occurred inside the Apollo 13 spacecraft during its attempt to land on the moon on April 11, 1970. The Apollo capsule was made by hundreds of scientific and technological brains and cost millions of dollars. No one could predict that there would be an explosion. When it happened, however, and the lives of the three astronauts were in danger, those involved in the mission requested all the people on earth to pray to God for the safe return of the astronauts. Such is the situation. At times of danger, people tend to remember God, although at other times they forget Him." "Now, let us look into some very simple and graphic examples of the artistry of the Lord's creation. We see that among the lower forms of living entities, social organization is very smoothly maintained. For example, in a bee colony the queen bee is nicely taken care of by the drones (male bees), while the workers collect nectar from flowers all day long. It is quite amazing to consider how the bees, with their tiny bodies, can collect such a great amount of honey for themselves as well as for other living entities. In this way, the colony is maintained with beautiful order. Similarly, the loving relationship between a mother and her baby is quite clearly visible even in very small forms of living entities. During the monsoon season in tropical countries, when there are torrents of rain, the small ants run to find shelter, carrying their eggs on their heads. The spider makes its wonderful webs with great architectural skill to serve as a shelter as well as to catch its prey for survival. Silkworms spin hundreds of yards of fine threads to form cocoons for their shelter during the pupa stage. Inside a tiny seed, smaller than the size of a mustard seed, the whole potency of a big banyan tree is present. In this way, we can see the wonderful arrangements of the Supreme Lord, who is creating, maintaining and guiding all living entities, small or big. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being—moving or unmoving—that can exist without Me.' " (BG 10.39) So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it? This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his . . . (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57) "About the Author. Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa Brahmacārī was born in a Vaiṣṇava (devoted) family in Manipur, India, on February 25, 1941. His father, Jogendra Singh, died when he was a mere child. In 1961 he earned his B.S. degree, with highest honours, in Chemistry from Gauhati University, and he earned his master's degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemical Technology with similar honours from Calcutta University in 1964. He was a recipient of a Research Fellowship from the University Grants Commission. "Allured by material advancement, he came to the United States of America and joined the Department of Chemistry, Canisius College, Buffalo, New York, in 1967 and obtained an M.S. degree in Chemistry in 1969. Then he joined the Department of Chemistry, University of California, Irvine, where he is finishing his Ph.D. in Physical Organic Chemistry." He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background. Is he still working as a scientist? He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the . . . Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong to your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and . . . No, not per se. We have our training centres where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the . . . most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centres are working in that fashion. We have a school for children, where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America. Can you give us an indication where the centres are, where some of them are? The centres are all over the world. We have centres in America and centres . . . We have got forty centres in America. Forty. Forty, four zero, yes. Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests. *No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language, but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. *And you're interpreting this in terms of modern*-day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book. Yes. Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks. *Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholesterol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you? There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful. Well, that butter . . . The milkfat and . . . Yes, milkfat. Milk is harmful? (guests laugh) How it is harmful? If it is harmful, why you are giving milk to the child? *There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two percent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different to the cow for the milk that we get from the non*-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants. But I think there is a book, Miracles of Milk, written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products. Yes, I think this is so . . . has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholesterol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the polyten level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholesterol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to . . . among many in the medical profession, to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats. (aside) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter? And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way, by a special feeding techniques to the cows. *Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk, because you'll find in this book that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk, is important, not other animal's milk. Yes, what about human milk? Human milk is natural. Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk. It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholesterol. (laughter) Cholesterol is no problem for you. But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak one of our . . . yes, you know him? One of our senior staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk. *No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa says that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (aside) Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa book? *Translation: "Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labour and service to others . . ." So Kṛṣṇa . . . we are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture. Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and saturated . . . The ratio between them, largely. I see, rather than the quantity. Well, No. you should . . . the advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, then you should increase the ratio between the polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana, I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex. *No, practically also you see, formerly big, big saintly person, they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the . . . he has written Mahābhārata , one hundred thousand verses, and similarly, this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk, and fruits. Yes. Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncey has taken the lead in C.S.I.R.O. (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation) in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat. Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted—the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia, where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past. He wants . . . he would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with, as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world, and what Australia can, can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science and as well as general living. *Yes. Now, so far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries . . . the population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the overpopulated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā we have the statement . . . (aside) Find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni . (aside) Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Translation: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain, both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps ploughing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors . . . what is called? Tractor? Cultivators. And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation, and the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labour, and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop. I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area couldn't . . . the area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand, I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards. *I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain, because the terrain is just not suited to the grain*-growing. Hmm. The land is not suitable? *Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts or semi*-deserts. And the gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural . . . the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us . . . you see, there's people that don't have the essentials, and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking, and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. I think . . . (break) . . . point, these are all misconception, because I am not this body; I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit . . . they are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian," "white," "black." Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they're dividing, this designation. So this knowledge, that so long the spirit soul is there in the body it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body? Yes, I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, is material and dead, in the terms we use, and the spirit moves on, but, and I accept from that, that at that stage one has nothing to . . . one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity, and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body. No, we don't say neglect the body. But the, the important factor . . . just like our this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination there is an active principle, which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect. I think I disagree with that. I'm, I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would take a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community. That I admit. That I admit. Yes. With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Yes, yes. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now? No, it is not the question neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but you still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this? They used to use sundial. Yes, yes, I know. Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch. I agree. Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screwdriving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? It, it . . . Where is that science? That is my proposition. It, it wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man. Yes. that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency . . . Creative faculty . . . therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain? But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the . . . that I think that I . . . If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? This is the must . . . as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist, but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist. If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment; but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has there a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present. This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it. Oh, thank you very much. (aside) So you, you, can you, can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweetball? Where are they? I could not find them just now. You go and find out. *This is a variety of cheese that . . . what we call a gouda cheese, which comes from originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries, and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. That seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese*-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more, more and more popular in these countries. From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations. Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties. *Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya . People . . . a class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food. It's a complete food in itself. *Yes. Those who are meat*-eaters, they can eat other, non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya . Does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "Elephant- rakṣya ." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. Yes. *So therefore it is recommended, go*-rakṣya . It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other, non-important animals, but don't kill animal, er, cow. *And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she's mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā , real mother. Ādau mātā . Guru patnī , the wife of guru , the spiritual master. Ādau mātā , guru patnī, brāhmaṇī , the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are, who are brāhmaṇa , that is also mentioned there in the śāstra . So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī . . . in general the understanding is, any except your wife, all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu : "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya . You cannot, I mean evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over, "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." I in our Society, we get married. Your government has approved our Society that we can . . . so . . . The government the, Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages. And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that? "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell . . . Yes, yes we, if we were alarmed, we wouldn't be here. And me too and . . . No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and . . . it is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasure house of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is a institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know the, what is the active principle of life. Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some . . . I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first. You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmin friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India? Yes I have, from the revealed scripture we can understand from . . . (aside) You have got the first part of *Bhāgavatam* ? Yes, right here. Part One? The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra ? That's not in that book. That's in Three, I think. Similar nuclear, nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra . So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptoms of nuclear weapon . . . (to devotees) Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho . That is . . . We don't have that volume. Why you are lacking? You say you have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said: "Yes, we have got enough stock." We have them, but we do not have them here. No, that is not . . . here are people coming, gentlemen coming. The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are, what you are thinking about India, India's . . . I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Anyway, why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam . When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this." No. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). (aside) Find out this verse. *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." *Because our vision is from the standard of that soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) means a learned, advanced spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. Such-and-such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā . *Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out this verse. "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature." Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural . . . material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body; next life I may get another body. That is explained— tathā dehāntara prāpti . We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, and then next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education? There is no science. But this is a fact. (to other guest) Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in on the . . . I think you've answered . . . Give them. These are, these are preparation which is prepared from Australian milk. Let him take. Yes. Oh, thank you. Give a napkin. It's a little sweet . . . it's a sweet preparation called gulābjāmun . It is all prepared just from milk which has been boil made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee , cooking ghee , and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and is very palatable. It's called a gulābjāmun . It is a, a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires a great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely. This cheese as you, as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat. Protein. Yes, yes. Similar protein. So why the animal should be killed? Take milk. What is sweet water? You mean just sugar . . . Syrup. Now is this made here or in India? Yes, we make it ourselves. You made it here. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science. Thank you very much. No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take. Why you are not . . . it is very nice. You mean to eat it now? Yes. I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife. No, no, you take, you take it. You just . . . Oh that's a shame. I can give you another. Yes. If you like, we shall give you more. It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though. Yes, it looks like it. And if you send us cheese like this, we can send you many things. (laughter) It's very nice, but I must save some for my family. I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but . . . (laughter) It's very good. Shall I give you more? No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home? Oh, yes. Well, this has been most interesting. Oh, yes. Well public relations meant for dairy research yes. One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues, fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply, oh well if I disagree with you we'll just fight. It has to be fine brain tissues in order to say: "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we, and we say that not we, but according to the scripture—there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products—not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products—the consumption of milk products and the development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. You know, the vegetables, rice, everything . . . even if rice was boiled, milk was put on . . . ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical, you know, progress. And thousands of tons of ghee , clarified butter, was offered in the yajña . The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation. Well, thank you very much . . . Thank you very . . . (break) . . . and they liked the sweet ball. Who has made? One girl. (end) Conversation -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne (Conversation with Scientists) Dr. Harrap. How do you do? And Dr. Muncey. Dr. Muncey. Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse . . . (aside) You have got first part? First part. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā . Idam ? *Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . (devotees search for verse) Hmm. Read. Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Purport. *"Human intellect is developed for advancement in learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamoured by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection, or self-realization, depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by the viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies, because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them." "When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all non different from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous topics, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification." *"Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavour to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful, and all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All so-called knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all other similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana , or glorification of the Lord." This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness: everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection. It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world, but we don't seem to have got their life qualities good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this. Excuse me, do you mind if I record this? Eh? They can record it? Oh, yes, why not? This stand's got a complicated contraption here. It makes very little contact . . . (indistinct) You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the Existence of the Supreme Scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this. (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19) "When we think calmly and carefully about this wonderful universe, we can see that everything is working under the control of a supreme brain. The arrangements in nature are perfectly ordered. Things would be at random without the careful planning of a scientific and engineering brain. It is a common understanding that there is a cause behind each action. A machine cannot run without an operator. Modern scientists are very proud of automation, but there is a scientific brain behind automation also. Even Albert Einstein agreed that there is a perfect brain behind all the natural physical laws. When we talk about 'brain' and 'operator,' these terms imply a person. They cannot be impersonal. One may inquire who this person is. He is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist and supreme engineer, under whose kind will the whole cosmos is working. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: 'The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.' " (BG 9.8) *"Now let us look a few samples from the Lord's creation, and upon contemplating these exemplary aspects, one should develop a better understanding and appreciation of the existence of the most powerful brain, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The sun that we see daily is the nearest star. It is one hundred earth diameters across and is ninety*-three million miles away from the earth. Every day the sun supplies the solar system with a tremendous amount of heat, light and energy. A quote, 'The very tiny fraction of the sun's energy that falls on the earth—estimated at about five parts in a hundred million million—is about 100,000 times greater than all the energy used in the world's industries. The total energy the sun emits in a single second would be sufficient to keep a 1 kilowatt electric fire burning for 10,000 million million years. Put in a different way, the energy the sun emits in one second is greater than the whole amount of energy the human species has consumed throughout its entire history, a quote from Fred Hoyle astronomy, 'Yet it is only one of the countless number of stars floating in the sky in every direction. With the material scientific brain, the thermal, electrical and nuclear powerhouses have been made. These can supply heat, light and energy to a small, limited extent, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is supplying the whole planet with an unlimited source of energy just from one sun. Kṛṣṇa says: 'The splendour of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendour of the moon and the splendour of fire are also from Me.' (BG 15.12) The planets are revolving in a systematic path around the sun. Even within the smallest atom, the electrons and the protons are orbiting around the nucleus in a perfect manner." *"Thus, from the submicroscopic realm of the atom to the expanding reaches of the galactic objects, this material universe is running like intricate, well*-oiled clockwork according to great natural physical laws and principles. Scientists have gained great acclaim for making a few spaceships, whereas Kṛṣṇa effortlessly produces gigantic spaceships, such as planets and stars, which are perfectly equipped and maintained. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni dhārayāmy aham ojāsa : 'I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit.' (BG 15.13) The laws made by the supreme brain always remain perfect; they are never violated. We never see the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. The colourful rainbow that we observe when the sun is shining during a shower is only visible when the sun is behind the observer, due to the laws of refraction. Also, each year the seasons change quite periodically, producing symptoms unique to each season." "Now let us look into some aspects of the Lord's creation at the molecular level. Chemists find that the different colours in flowers are due to chemicals called anthocyanins, and the different aromas are mostly due to chemicals called terpenes and terpenoid compounds. The molecular frameworks for these compounds range from very simple structures to very complex networks. Camphor, for example, is a terpenoid compound, and the characteristic odour of lemons is due to the molecule called limonene, which is one of the simple terpenes. Similarly, the characteristic colours in carrots and tomatoes are due to molecules called carotenoids, which are higher forms of terpenes. The molecular framework for each definite colour or aroma is wonderfully unique. A little change in position of a few atoms in the molecule, a little variation in the geometry of the molecule or a slight change in the size of the molecule can cause a colour to change from orange to red, a mild, pleasing aroma to become repellent and pungent, and a flavor to change from sweet to bitter." "On one extreme we find the smallest molecule, the hydrogen molecule, which contains only two atoms of hydrogen. On the other extreme we find giant molecules such as the proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA), the building blocks of all living material bodies, which contain innumerable atoms made for a definite function. Similarly, the crystalline pattern of each different molecule is unique. The geometrical shape for sodium chloride (common salt), for example, is cubical. Charcoal, graphite and diamonds are all derived from the same element, carbon, and yet the shining and transparent diamond is extremely hard, whereas graphite is soft, black and opaque. This is due to the difference in the crystalline forms of these molecules. In the crystal lattice of the diamond, each carbon atom is tetrahedrally surrounded by four other carbon atoms at a distance of 1.54 angstroms (one angstrom = 10-8sq cm) In graphite, by contrast, the three bonds of each carbon atom are distorted so as to lie in the same plane, the fourth bond being directed perpendicularly to this plane to link with a carbon atom of the neighbouring layer." *"In this way we can cite innumerable examples of molecular networks so fantastically and delicately arranged that chemists cannot but wonder about the most expert hand and brain who is making all these wonderfully artistic arrangements in His laboratory. Indeed, the intelligence and ability of the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are inconceivable ( acintya ). There is no scientist who can deny it. How, then, can any chemist abstain from appreciating the wonderful works of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa? In Bhagavad*-gītā we find: 'One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.' " (BG 8.9) *"At best, scientists can only try to imitate the wonderful artistic works of the Supreme Lord. They cannot even do this properly, and most of their attempts lead to failure and disappointment. Even when they are partly successful, it is only with the greatest difficulty. For example, Professor R. B. Woodward of Harvard, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry (1965) and Professor A. Eschenmoser of Zurich took eleven years to synthesize the vitamin B12 molecule. Altogether, ninety*-nine scientists from nineteen different countries were involved just to accomplish this one small task. Yet Kṛṣṇa is making all these complex molecules at will." "Interestingly enough, when scientists fail again and again in their attempts to make something, they consciously or unconsciously pray to God for help. Does this not indicate the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and the natural subordinate position of all other living entities? A crude example is the explosion that occurred inside the Apollo 13 spacecraft during its attempt to land on the moon on April 11, 1970. The Apollo capsule was made by hundreds of scientific and technological brains and cost millions of dollars. No one could predict that there would be an explosion. When it happened, however, and the lives of the three astronauts were in danger, those involved in the mission requested all the people on earth to pray to God for the safe return of the astronauts. Such is the situation. At times of danger, people tend to remember God, although at other times they forget Him." "Now, let us look into some very simple and graphic examples of the artistry of the Lord's creation. We see that among the lower forms of living entities, social organization is very smoothly maintained. For example, in a bee colony the queen bee is nicely taken care of by the drones (male bees), while the workers collect nectar from flowers all day long. It is quite amazing to consider how the bees, with their tiny bodies, can collect such a great amount of honey for themselves as well as for other living entities. In this way, the colony is maintained with beautiful order. Similarly, the loving relationship between a mother and her baby is quite clearly visible even in very small forms of living entities. During the monsoon season in tropical countries, when there are torrents of rain, the small ants run to find shelter, carrying their eggs on their heads. The spider makes its wonderful webs with great architectural skill to serve as a shelter as well as to catch its prey for survival. Silkworms spin hundreds of yards of fine threads to form cocoons for their shelter during the pupa stage. Inside a tiny seed, smaller than the size of a mustard seed, the whole potency of a big banyan tree is present. In this way, we can see the wonderful arrangements of the Supreme Lord, who is creating, maintaining and guiding all living entities, small or big. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being—moving or unmoving—that can exist without Me.' " (BG 10.39) So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it? This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his . . . (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57) "About the Author. Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa Brahmacārī was born in a Vaiṣṇava (devoted) family in Manipur, India, on February 25, 1941. His father, Jogendra Singh, died when he was a mere child. In 1961 he earned his B.S. degree, with highest honours, in Chemistry from Gauhati University, and he earned his master's degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemical Technology with similar honours from Calcutta University in 1964. He was a recipient of a Research Fellowship from the University Grants Commission. "Allured by material advancement, he came to the United States of America and joined the Department of Chemistry, Canisius College, Buffalo, New York, in 1967 and obtained an M.S. degree in Chemistry in 1969. Then he joined the Department of Chemistry, University of California, Irvine, where he is finishing his Ph.D. in Physical Organic Chemistry." He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background. Is he still working as a scientist? He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the . . . Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong to your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and . . . No, not per se. We have our training centres where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the . . . most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centres are working in that fashion. We have a school for children, where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America. Can you give us an indication where the centres are, where some of them are? The centres are all over the world. We have centres in America and centres . . . We have got forty centres in America. Forty. Forty, four zero, yes. Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests. *No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language, but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. *And you're interpreting this in terms of modern*-day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book. Yes. Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks. *Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholesterol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you? There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful. Well, that butter . . . The milkfat and . . . Yes, milkfat. Milk is harmful? (guests laugh) How it is harmful? If it is harmful, why you are giving milk to the child? *There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two percent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different to the cow for the milk that we get from the non*-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants. But I think there is a book, Miracles of Milk, written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products. Yes, I think this is so . . . has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholesterol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the polyten level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholesterol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to . . . among many in the medical profession, to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats. (aside) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter? And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way, by a special feeding techniques to the cows. *Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk, because you'll find in this book that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk, is important, not other animal's milk. Yes, what about human milk? Human milk is natural. Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk. It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholesterol. (laughter) Cholesterol is no problem for you. But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak one of our . . . yes, you know him? One of our senior staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk. *No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa says that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (aside) Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa book? *Translation: "Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labour and service to others . . ." So Kṛṣṇa . . . we are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture. Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and saturated . . . The ratio between them, largely. I see, rather than the quantity. Well, No. you should . . . the advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, then you should increase the ratio between the polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana, I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex. *No, practically also you see, formerly big, big saintly person, they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the . . . he has written Mahābhārata , one hundred thousand verses, and similarly, this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk, and fruits. Yes. Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncey has taken the lead in C.S.I.R.O. (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation) in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat. Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted—the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia, where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past. He wants . . . he would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with, as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world, and what Australia can, can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science and as well as general living. *Yes. Now, so far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries . . . the population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the overpopulated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā we have the statement . . . (aside) Find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni . (aside) Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Translation: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain, both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps ploughing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors . . . what is called? Tractor? Cultivators. And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation, and the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labour, and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop. I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area couldn't . . . the area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand, I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards. *I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain, because the terrain is just not suited to the grain*-growing. Hmm. The land is not suitable? *Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts or semi*-deserts. And the gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural . . . the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us . . . you see, there's people that don't have the essentials, and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking, and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. I think . . . (break) . . . point, these are all misconception, because I am not this body; I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit . . . they are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian," "white," "black." Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they're dividing, this designation. So this knowledge, that so long the spirit soul is there in the body it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body? Yes, I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, is material and dead, in the terms we use, and the spirit moves on, but, and I accept from that, that at that stage one has nothing to . . . one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity, and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body. No, we don't say neglect the body. But the, the important factor . . . just like our this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination there is an active principle, which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect. I think I disagree with that. I'm, I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would take a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community. That I admit. That I admit. Yes. With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Yes, yes. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now? No, it is not the question neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but you still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this? They used to use sundial. Yes, yes, I know. Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch. I agree. Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screwdriving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? It, it . . . Where is that science? That is my proposition. It, it wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man. Yes. that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency . . . Creative faculty . . . therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain? But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the . . . that I think that I . . . If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? This is the must . . . as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist, but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist. If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment; but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has there a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present. This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it. Oh, thank you very much. (aside) So you, you, can you, can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweetball? Where are they? I could not find them just now. You go and find out. *This is a variety of cheese that . . . what we call a gouda cheese, which comes from originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries, and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. That seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese*-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more, more and more popular in these countries. From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations. Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties. *Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya . People . . . a class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food. It's a complete food in itself. *Yes. Those who are meat*-eaters, they can eat other, non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya . Does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "Elephant- rakṣya ." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. Yes. *So therefore it is recommended, go*-rakṣya . It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other, non-important animals, but don't kill animal, er, cow. *And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she's mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā , real mother. Ādau mātā . Guru patnī , the wife of guru , the spiritual master. Ādau mātā , guru patnī, brāhmaṇī , the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are, who are brāhmaṇa , that is also mentioned there in the śāstra . So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī . . . in general the understanding is, any except your wife, all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu : "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya . You cannot, I mean evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over, "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." I in our Society, we get married. Your government has approved our Society that we can . . . so . . . The government the, Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages. And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that? "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell . . . Yes, yes we, if we were alarmed, we wouldn't be here. And me too and . . . No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and . . . it is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasure house of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is a institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know the, what is the active principle of life. Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some . . . I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first. You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmin friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India? Yes I have, from the revealed scripture we can understand from . . . (aside) You have got the first part of *Bhāgavatam* ? Yes, right here. Part One? The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra ? That's not in that book. That's in Three, I think. Similar nuclear, nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra . So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptoms of nuclear weapon . . . (to devotees) Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho . That is . . . We don't have that volume. Why you are lacking? You say you have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said: "Yes, we have got enough stock." We have them, but we do not have them here. No, that is not . . . here are people coming, gentlemen coming. The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are, what you are thinking about India, India's . . . I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Anyway, why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam . When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this." No. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). (aside) Find out this verse. *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." *Because our vision is from the standard of that soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) means a learned, advanced spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. Such-and-such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā . *Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out this verse. "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature." Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural . . . material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body; next life I may get another body. That is explained— tathā dehāntara prāpti . We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, and then next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education? There is no science. But this is a fact. (to other guest) Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in on the . . . I think you've answered . . . Give them. These are, these are preparation which is prepared from Australian milk. Let him take. Yes. Oh, thank you. Give a napkin. It's a little sweet . . . it's a sweet preparation called gulābjāmun . It is all prepared just from milk which has been boil made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee , cooking ghee , and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and is very palatable. It's called a gulābjāmun . It is a, a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires a great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely. This cheese as you, as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat. Protein. Yes, yes. Similar protein. So why the animal should be killed? Take milk. What is sweet water? You mean just sugar . . . Syrup. Now is this made here or in India? Yes, we make it ourselves. You made it here. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science. Thank you very much. No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take. Why you are not . . . it is very nice. You mean to eat it now? Yes. I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife. No, no, you take, you take it. You just . . . Oh that's a shame. I can give you another. Yes. If you like, we shall give you more. It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though. Yes, it looks like it. And if you send us cheese like this, we can send you many things. (laughter) It's very nice, but I must save some for my family. I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but . . . (laughter) It's very good. Shall I give you more? No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home? Oh, yes. Well, this has been most interesting. Oh, yes. Well public relations meant for dairy research yes. One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues, fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply, oh well if I disagree with you we'll just fight. It has to be fine brain tissues in order to say: "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we, and we say that not we, but according to the scripture—there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products—not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products—the consumption of milk products and the development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. You know, the vegetables, rice, everything . . . even if rice was boiled, milk was put on . . . ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical, you know, progress. And thousands of tons of ghee , clarified butter, was offered in the yajña . The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation. Well, thank you very much . . . Thank you very . . . (break) . . . and they liked the sweet ball. Who has made? One girl. (end) Interview -- July 4, 1974, Chicago Yes. There's a market? Everywhere. Huh? That because the United States is so materialistic, the message of . . . Take one. *. . . anti*-materialism is more easily accepted than in places where things are not so? That is also another cause, because they are not satisfied. Otherwise, why hippies are coming? (aside) Come. The hippies are dissatisfied with the method of modern materialistic way of life. Is it not? Therefore voluntarily . . . Yes. They have given away their possessions and . . . Huh? . . . they have, they have chosen to . . . Voluntarily they are giving up possessions. (someone enters) Sit down. Hello. Hi. There is a reporter from the Chicago Daily News. Ah. Take two. . . . Krsna consciousness people among the hippies, because they had already given up material possessions, and so they were prepared for . . .? No, that means that they want to have something new, but they are not accepting what is actually better. Some of them are accepting. But there is frustration, there is no doubt. There is no doubt . . .? Frustration. Frustration. Yes. This way of, materialistic way of life, like their fathers, grandfathers, they do not like. Is it not? Huh? I think so. Yes. (break) (laughter) In Los Angeles, do you live . . . do you live in richness? Do you have a car, and a chauffeur, and a . . . Why not? . . . a yacht? I am . . . I am the guru of the richest country. Why shall I not have car? Do you follow? No, I don’t. (laughter) If I am guru of the richest country, then why shall I not have a car? So you . . . you have one? I have many. In each center I have got at least one dozen cars. (laughter) Just now I am coming from Europe—Germany. They have got nineteen vans. Nineteen. They go interior villages. The Volkswagen? What is called? Volkswagen Bus. Bus, bus. Yes. (laughter) So our devotees, they are packed up in each bus, and they go interior, in the village. Similarly, in every center we have got. In Germany, in England, in Los Angeles, in New York. Here also? Yes. There's nine vehicles here. Huh? Nine vehicles. Just see. Nine vehicles in Chicago? Yes. Some spiritual leaders of, of various groups live in great richness, with a chauffeur, and, uh, uh, expensive cars and boats . . . Yes. What about you? That because I know you are envious, therefore I don’t sit here, I am sitting here. (laughter) You are very envious when a spiritual master is honored very nicely by his disciples. You become envious. What can be done? But that is the etiquette, that spiritual master is honored as good as God. But if you, you do not know, you become envious, "Why this man is sitting in this position, in this gorgeous way. Why he . . .?" What can be done? ' Are you honored as good as God? Yes. Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda is the most exalted person walking on the earth. So he must be honored in the highest fashion. No. That is the injunction, yasya prasādād dharitvena . What is that verse? "A spiritual master should be honored as good as God." That is the injunction of the scripture. And people who are aware of this thing, they honor. (break) But why did you not come to the United States until you were . . . 'til 1965? Why didn’t you come sooner? Or to England? That's a great, hmm, mystery. I was not thinking myself that, "I am fit now to go there." And if you were not . . . I was thinking that, "At present, I am not fit." And besides that, I was family man at that time. I could not get the opportunity. So after renouncing the family life—then. I renounced family life in 1954. 1954? Yes. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. And then I came to your country in 1956. What did you do in 1959? Sannyāsa . Renouncing, officially renouncing. Officially renouncing family life. In ’59? Yes. What happened to your wife? Oh, I leave under the, her children, that's all. The eldest son takes care of the wife, the mother. A very nice system. (end) Interview -- July 4, 1974, Chicago Yes. There's a market? Everywhere. Huh? That because the United States is so materialistic, the message of . . . Take one. *. . . anti*-materialism is more easily accepted than in places where things are not so? That is also another cause, because they are not satisfied. Otherwise, why hippies are coming? (aside) Come. The hippies are dissatisfied with the method of modern materialistic way of life. Is it not? Therefore voluntarily . . . Yes. They have given away their possessions and . . . Huh? . . . they have, they have chosen to . . . Voluntarily they are giving up possessions. (someone enters) Sit down. Hello. Hi. There is a reporter from the Chicago Daily News. Ah. Take two. . . . Krsna consciousness people among the hippies, because they had already given up material possessions, and so they were prepared for . . .? No, that means that they want to have something new, but they are not accepting what is actually better. Some of them are accepting. But there is frustration, there is no doubt. There is no doubt . . .? Frustration. Frustration. Yes. This way of, materialistic way of life, like their fathers, grandfathers, they do not like. Is it not? Huh? I think so. Yes. (break) (laughter) In Los Angeles, do you live . . . do you live in richness? Do you have a car, and a chauffeur, and a . . . Why not? . . . a yacht? I am . . . I am the guru of the richest country. Why shall I not have car? Do you follow? No, I don’t. (laughter) If I am guru of the richest country, then why shall I not have a car? So you . . . you have one? I have many. In each center I have got at least one dozen cars. (laughter) Just now I am coming from Europe—Germany. They have got nineteen vans. Nineteen. They go interior villages. The Volkswagen? What is called? Volkswagen Bus. Bus, bus. Yes. (laughter) So our devotees, they are packed up in each bus, and they go interior, in the village. Similarly, in every center we have got. In Germany, in England, in Los Angeles, in New York. Here also? Yes. There's nine vehicles here. Huh? Nine vehicles. Just see. Nine vehicles in Chicago? Yes. Some spiritual leaders of, of various groups live in great richness, with a chauffeur, and, uh, uh, expensive cars and boats . . . Yes. What about you? That because I know you are envious, therefore I don’t sit here, I am sitting here. (laughter) You are very envious when a spiritual master is honored very nicely by his disciples. You become envious. What can be done? But that is the etiquette, that spiritual master is honored as good as God. But if you, you do not know, you become envious, "Why this man is sitting in this position, in this gorgeous way. Why he . . .?" What can be done? ' Are you honored as good as God? Yes. Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda is the most exalted person walking on the earth. So he must be honored in the highest fashion. No. That is the injunction, yasya prasādād dharitvena . What is that verse? "A spiritual master should be honored as good as God." That is the injunction of the scripture. And people who are aware of this thing, they honor. (break) But why did you not come to the United States until you were . . . 'til 1965? Why didn’t you come sooner? Or to England? That's a great, hmm, mystery. I was not thinking myself that, "I am fit now to go there." And if you were not . . . I was thinking that, "At present, I am not fit." And besides that, I was family man at that time. I could not get the opportunity. So after renouncing the family life—then. I renounced family life in 1954. 1954? Yes. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. And then I came to your country in 1956. What did you do in 1959? Sannyāsa . Renouncing, officially renouncing. Officially renouncing family life. In ’59? Yes. What happened to your wife? Oh, I leave under the, her children, that's all. The eldest son takes care of the wife, the mother. A very nice system. (end) Conversation -- July 8, 1974, Los Angeles . . . Gopala. Gopala? He left. Why? He was in māyā for a long time. He stole $6000 also. No, he had twenty times that. He must have gotten more. That's all I know. He took from the bank. He could have got the whole thing, right? He could have, but he couldn't, because it was in yen; he couldn't trade it in. But I had American money hidden for . . . because we are foreigners, we must keep some American money, and he knew where it was, and he took $4000 of that. Plus I don't know how much more he took—at least $6000 though—and he left his tridaṇḍi . He was supposed to go to Korea and file for missionary visas, and I looked in his drawer in his files, and he had not gone. But he had been away, and he came back and said that he went. So I took over all the money and everything, took over all the accounts, but I did not trust him because he was not chanting properly, and he was not Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then he snuck away. This is the difficulty, out of sight. Hm. I think it had been planned, though, for some time. It was very planned. Where he is now? I don't know. He is a criminal. He has taken so much money. He has not left any message. He sent back the bank book, right? Yes. He took the bank book with all . . . that had all money in it, with all this money. He went to the bank to pay the rent, and he withdrew . . . he paid the rent and withdrew some for himself, and he left. Only his signature? Only. Because he is the only one who has proper visa, he has business visa. That was the problem. So what news about Bhanu? He is doing nice. Very nice. But he is very reluctant to become the president. He does not like the business. No, that is good. He thinks himself, and feels why should he take this money? He is very intelligent, though. Very intelligent, good devotee. But he is doing any translation work? No. He is not able to translate. Oh. Because he has only learned Japanese since he went to Japan. He did not know it previously. Oh. *He has translated the whole Bhagavad*-gītā , but it just sits there. They say it is not well enough translated, the Japanese people. It will not be accepted. But he was translating? He has been working on *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* , but not very quickly. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just met one boy here, a boy from Fukushima, Japan. Who? He speaks very little English, and he has shaven head and śikhā . And I just preached with him, and he is going to go back to Tokyo, and his visa is expiring in a week or two, and he says he wants to go back and help to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has formally joined that temple? No. He is very intelligent boy. He speaks Spanish—a little bit of Spanish—Chinese, English—a little bit of English—and he is fluent, of course, because he is born in Japan. That's what . . . that's what we need. He came in contact with our movement in Los Angeles, and he just asked me the question, when he was a young boy in Fukushima he used to go to the Buddhist temples, and they play the drums. And he wanted to know why now, after so many years, he saw our saṅkīrtana party in Los Angeles, and he was very much attracted, so much so that he went with them to the temple and shaved his head. So I told him it was natural for him; that is why it is our position to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So he has a desire to return back to Japan and help with translating and study, and he has a good mind. His name is Fuji. Oh. Young. He is very nice. So what about Book Trust? I want to see that according to the Trust, desire, there is fifty percent for building . . . (indistinct) . . . temples, and fifty percent for reprinting, or printing. That is being observed or not? Mm. Well, we are giving as much as we can for the loans and with construction. We are just . . . Some business was started for . . . (indistinct) . . . for Book Trust? No, not that I know of. Yes. (indistinct) . . . (laughs) The jewelry business? And that business will not close. And in this way it will invest in some business risk. Oh, that was with Karāndhara and Jayatīrtha. I did not even know about that. Invest . . . (indistinct) . . . should be stopped. Yes, there is a loan that . . . Spiritual Sky has a large debt to the Book Trust, that they owe . . . How much? Well, they told me it is somewhere 100,000, 150,000. Eh? What is this? Without consulting, Karāndhara has taken that money? Yes. Apparently it was something that was done a long time ago. (break) Even I saw in Ramakrishna mission was sent. That's why I gave this solution. Now by God's grace it has . . . (indistinct) . . . nice business. Remember to do that. But this Trust money should not . . . They cannot . . . they can work everything out themselves. (break) So Karāndhara is now in India. You have some correspondence? Yes, he has . . . (break) He was Indian king. That's why they recognize India, because they know that Lord Buddha is from India. Yes. And this Buddhist group. India is also a holy place for their . . . Buddhists. . . . Buddhists. They go to see. Just like we have got with our Jagannātha Purī, they have got similar places in India. In Madhya Pradesh, in Bihar. They visit all these places. (aside) So, give him something to eat. Yes. (end) Conversation -- July 8, 1974, Los Angeles . . . Gopala. Gopala? He left. Why? He was in māyā for a long time. He stole $6000 also. No, he had twenty times that. He must have gotten more. That's all I know. He took from the bank. He could have got the whole thing, right? He could have, but he couldn't, because it was in yen; he couldn't trade it in. But I had American money hidden for . . . because we are foreigners, we must keep some American money, and he knew where it was, and he took $4000 of that. Plus I don't know how much more he took—at least $6000 though—and he left his tridaṇḍi . He was supposed to go to Korea and file for missionary visas, and I looked in his drawer in his files, and he had not gone. But he had been away, and he came back and said that he went. So I took over all the money and everything, took over all the accounts, but I did not trust him because he was not chanting properly, and he was not Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then he snuck away. This is the difficulty, out of sight. Hm. I think it had been planned, though, for some time. It was very planned. Where he is now? I don't know. He is a criminal. He has taken so much money. He has not left any message. He sent back the bank book, right? Yes. He took the bank book with all . . . that had all money in it, with all this money. He went to the bank to pay the rent, and he withdrew . . . he paid the rent and withdrew some for himself, and he left. Only his signature? Only. Because he is the only one who has proper visa, he has business visa. That was the problem. So what news about Bhanu? He is doing nice. Very nice. But he is very reluctant to become the president. He does not like the business. No, that is good. He thinks himself, and feels why should he take this money? He is very intelligent, though. Very intelligent, good devotee. But he is doing any translation work? No. He is not able to translate. Oh. Because he has only learned Japanese since he went to Japan. He did not know it previously. Oh. *He has translated the whole Bhagavad*-gītā , but it just sits there. They say it is not well enough translated, the Japanese people. It will not be accepted. But he was translating? He has been working on *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* , but not very quickly. Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just met one boy here, a boy from Fukushima, Japan. Who? He speaks very little English, and he has shaven head and śikhā . And I just preached with him, and he is going to go back to Tokyo, and his visa is expiring in a week or two, and he says he wants to go back and help to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has formally joined that temple? No. He is very intelligent boy. He speaks Spanish—a little bit of Spanish—Chinese, English—a little bit of English—and he is fluent, of course, because he is born in Japan. That's what . . . that's what we need. He came in contact with our movement in Los Angeles, and he just asked me the question, when he was a young boy in Fukushima he used to go to the Buddhist temples, and they play the drums. And he wanted to know why now, after so many years, he saw our saṅkīrtana party in Los Angeles, and he was very much attracted, so much so that he went with them to the temple and shaved his head. So I told him it was natural for him; that is why it is our position to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So he has a desire to return back to Japan and help with translating and study, and he has a good mind. His name is Fuji. Oh. Young. He is very nice. So what about Book Trust? I want to see that according to the Trust, desire, there is fifty percent for building . . . (indistinct) . . . temples, and fifty percent for reprinting, or printing. That is being observed or not? Mm. Well, we are giving as much as we can for the loans and with construction. We are just . . . Some business was started for . . . (indistinct) . . . for Book Trust? No, not that I know of. Yes. (indistinct) . . . (laughs) The jewelry business? And that business will not close. And in this way it will invest in some business risk. Oh, that was with Karāndhara and Jayatīrtha. I did not even know about that. Invest . . . (indistinct) . . . should be stopped. Yes, there is a loan that . . . Spiritual Sky has a large debt to the Book Trust, that they owe . . . How much? Well, they told me it is somewhere 100,000, 150,000. Eh? What is this? Without consulting, Karāndhara has taken that money? Yes. Apparently it was something that was done a long time ago. (break) Even I saw in Ramakrishna mission was sent. That's why I gave this solution. Now by God's grace it has . . . (indistinct) . . . nice business. Remember to do that. But this Trust money should not . . . They cannot . . . they can work everything out themselves. (break) So Karāndhara is now in India. You have some correspondence? Yes, he has . . . (break) He was Indian king. That's why they recognize India, because they know that Lord Buddha is from India. Yes. And this Buddhist group. India is also a holy place for their . . . Buddhists. . . . Buddhists. They go to see. Just like we have got with our Jagannātha Purī, they have got similar places in India. In Madhya Pradesh, in Bihar. They visit all these places. (aside) So, give him something to eat. Yes. (end) Lecture Departure -- July 25, 1974, New York *. . . sa sannyāsī ( BG 6.1). The mission of sannyāsī is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Karmī. Karmī means he works, and he wants to enjoy the fruit. That is karmī . But Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, said, anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ (BG 6.1): one who does not take the result of karma . . . suppose you are a businessman. So you are working very hard, earning $50,000. If you don’t take that, then you are sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ, kāryaṁ : it is my duty. So if he does not take the result of karma , who will take? Kṛṣṇa said, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇa : "Give Me." (laughter) Kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi, yaj juhoṣi, yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi kuruṣva (BG 9.27). This is life. You read Eighteenth Chapter, very nice verse. To give up the karma phalaṁ , the result of your work, to Kṛṣṇa—that is real sannyāsa; *that is real renunciation. (aside) So you try to impress on that way. You have got . . . (indistinct) . . . at Los Angeles, and uncover . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see? Send directly to Bali*-mardana. He gave me the address . . . No, you can leave the check here. . . . (indistinct) *Whatever detail can be sent. Just like we are traveling, we require thousands and thousands of dollars. Why shall I neglect? You cannot . . . if I do not want to spend money for airplane, how could I come to your country? So money is required. Money is not bad. Money, if it is spent for Kṛṣṇa, then it is Lakṣmī, real Lakṣmī, as lakṣmī sahasra-śata sambrahma*-sev . . . (Bs. 5.29). Laksmi's business is to stay engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. So all the money of the world, it should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi : "Never mind whatever you are doing; *you give Me the result." Is it not? Bhagavad*-gītā , you have read it? Yes. So give to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa wants money for paying the airplane fare. (laughter) I am going, daily from . . . (indistinct) . . . New York to London, London to here, there, spending thousands and thousands of dollars. So who will pay? Kṛṣṇa will pay. Because I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, He will pay. This is our Gosvāmīs' instruction. Everything, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), everything has relation with Kṛṣṇa. So even is Kṛṣṇa's money, why should He give it, as . . . (indistinct) . . . as material? Anything dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. It is not material. Karma vairāgya . Rūpa Gosvāmī. Phalgu means false renunciation. False. Just like Māyāvādīs, they think, "No, no, we shall not touch it." Why not? What money has done? Money is Lakṣmī. Why it should be not touched? But engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Of course, one who has no idea of Kṛṣṇa—he cannot spend for Kṛṣṇa—he should not touch. That is good, because he will misuse. He should not touch. But one who can . . . who knows how to spend money for Kṛṣṇa, why he should not? So, New York temple is very nice, very . . . (indistinct) . . . don’t be disturbed by outward elements. Fix up your understanding. Then māyā will not be able to touch. Our this flourishing condition, there are so many envious persons, they want to destroy this organization. Because the whole world is full of envious persons. Material world means envious. So they know, so many enemies are . . . Kṛṣṇa will already protect; otherwise so many counteracting things are going on, especially in India. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu had to face so many. Kṛṣṇa had to kill so many demons from the beginning. Right from His birth. Yes. So there are many demons. We have no strength to kill them, but Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Jaya . They cannot win. Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Prahlāda Mahārāja could not kill Hiraṇyakaśipu, but Kṛṣṇa killed him. Anyone who is impediment to this movement, he will be killed. We must be also steady, very firmly convinced . . . (indistinct) . . . "I don’t care for them." We should never deviate from the plan . . . (indistinct) *Yes. Whatever . . . man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can keep yourself on the standard, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā , to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa; *man*-manā bhava mad . . . mad yājī , worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, mad yājī . Māṁ namaskuru . *And offering obeisances. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and distribute books, hear Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Deity worship. If you strictly follow these things, no māyā can touch you. And if you deviate, then māyā is very strong: immediately capture. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama maya (BG 7.14). Did we get the permit to build the temple in Bombay now? Hmm? Did we get the permit to build . . . (break) . . . it cannot be checked by any material thing. Checking is for materialist, not for spiritual. (long pause) Don’t disagree with your wife. Since you have married, you have got good position. Then, first know that. Still you are . . . (indistinct) . . . one gets money if he is fortunate to have a good wife. And you are also fortunate, you have got sons . . . (indistinct) . . . putra . If one is fortunate to get nice husband, she gets nice son. And the husband gets good wife, he gets money. (laughter). It is tradition . . . (indistinct) . . . if one is good fortunate, he gets good wife like Taittirīya, (laughter) and gets money also. (laughter) Don’t fight. (break) (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . very intelligent. There is a very big women's liberation movement in America, they call it Women Lib. So they want equal opportunity for women. But who will give birth to the child? (laughter) Where is that liberation? (laughter) Can the woman transfer to the man to give birth to the child? (laughter). They are trying. (laughter) Where is the liberty? The woman has to carry the child for ten months—nature's way. To go against nature, that is foolishness. God has made woman. Man should have respect . . . (indistinct) . . . what woman can do, man cannot do. What man can do, woman cannot do. So how there can be equal rights? That is not possible. Everyone should do his own duty and be happy. Kāryaṁ karma karoti (BG 6.1): "It is my duty. I have to do it." Husband should give all comforts to the wife; she may not be uncomfortable in any way. They want food, cloth, little ornaments. Yes. In so many ways, the husband must give to keep the woman satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . in India you will find that the poor man, they will get—what is called—lead bangles. They cannot provide silver or gold, but bangle must be there. If not lead, then glass. She will be satisfied with good sārī , good bangle, good foods and some children. Thats all. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya (BG 4.8). Two things. Kṛṣṇa has got two things—to kill the demons and to benedict the devotees. (end) Lecture Departure -- July 25, 1974, New York *. . . sa sannyāsī ( BG 6.1). The mission of sannyāsī is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Karmī. Karmī means he works, and he wants to enjoy the fruit. That is karmī . But Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, said, anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ (BG 6.1): one who does not take the result of karma . . . suppose you are a businessman. So you are working very hard, earning $50,000. If you don’t take that, then you are sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ, kāryaṁ : it is my duty. So if he does not take the result of karma , who will take? Kṛṣṇa said, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇa : "Give Me." (laughter) Kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi, yaj juhoṣi, yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi kuruṣva (BG 9.27). This is life. You read Eighteenth Chapter, very nice verse. To give up the karma phalaṁ , the result of your work, to Kṛṣṇa—that is real sannyāsa; *that is real renunciation. (aside) So you try to impress on that way. You have got . . . (indistinct) . . . at Los Angeles, and uncover . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see? Send directly to Bali*-mardana. He gave me the address . . . No, you can leave the check here. . . . (indistinct) *Whatever detail can be sent. Just like we are traveling, we require thousands and thousands of dollars. Why shall I neglect? You cannot . . . if I do not want to spend money for airplane, how could I come to your country? So money is required. Money is not bad. Money, if it is spent for Kṛṣṇa, then it is Lakṣmī, real Lakṣmī, as lakṣmī sahasra-śata sambrahma*-sev . . . (Bs. 5.29). Laksmi's business is to stay engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. So all the money of the world, it should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi : "Never mind whatever you are doing; *you give Me the result." Is it not? Bhagavad*-gītā , you have read it? Yes. So give to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa wants money for paying the airplane fare. (laughter) I am going, daily from . . . (indistinct) . . . New York to London, London to here, there, spending thousands and thousands of dollars. So who will pay? Kṛṣṇa will pay. Because I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, He will pay. This is our Gosvāmīs' instruction. Everything, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), everything has relation with Kṛṣṇa. So even is Kṛṣṇa's money, why should He give it, as . . . (indistinct) . . . as material? Anything dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. It is not material. Karma vairāgya . Rūpa Gosvāmī. Phalgu means false renunciation. False. Just like Māyāvādīs, they think, "No, no, we shall not touch it." Why not? What money has done? Money is Lakṣmī. Why it should be not touched? But engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Of course, one who has no idea of Kṛṣṇa—he cannot spend for Kṛṣṇa—he should not touch. That is good, because he will misuse. He should not touch. But one who can . . . who knows how to spend money for Kṛṣṇa, why he should not? So, New York temple is very nice, very . . . (indistinct) . . . don’t be disturbed by outward elements. Fix up your understanding. Then māyā will not be able to touch. Our this flourishing condition, there are so many envious persons, they want to destroy this organization. Because the whole world is full of envious persons. Material world means envious. So they know, so many enemies are . . . Kṛṣṇa will already protect; otherwise so many counteracting things are going on, especially in India. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu had to face so many. Kṛṣṇa had to kill so many demons from the beginning. Right from His birth. Yes. So there are many demons. We have no strength to kill them, but Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Jaya . They cannot win. Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Prahlāda Mahārāja could not kill Hiraṇyakaśipu, but Kṛṣṇa killed him. Anyone who is impediment to this movement, he will be killed. We must be also steady, very firmly convinced . . . (indistinct) . . . "I don’t care for them." We should never deviate from the plan . . . (indistinct) *Yes. Whatever . . . man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can keep yourself on the standard, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā , to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa; *man*-manā bhava mad . . . mad yājī , worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, mad yājī . Māṁ namaskuru . *And offering obeisances. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and distribute books, hear Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Deity worship. If you strictly follow these things, no māyā can touch you. And if you deviate, then māyā is very strong: immediately capture. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama maya (BG 7.14). Did we get the permit to build the temple in Bombay now? Hmm? Did we get the permit to build . . . (break) . . . it cannot be checked by any material thing. Checking is for materialist, not for spiritual. (long pause) Don’t disagree with your wife. Since you have married, you have got good position. Then, first know that. Still you are . . . (indistinct) . . . one gets money if he is fortunate to have a good wife. And you are also fortunate, you have got sons . . . (indistinct) . . . putra . If one is fortunate to get nice husband, she gets nice son. And the husband gets good wife, he gets money. (laughter). It is tradition . . . (indistinct) . . . if one is good fortunate, he gets good wife like Taittirīya, (laughter) and gets money also. (laughter) Don’t fight. (break) (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . very intelligent. There is a very big women's liberation movement in America, they call it Women Lib. So they want equal opportunity for women. But who will give birth to the child? (laughter) Where is that liberation? (laughter) Can the woman transfer to the man to give birth to the child? (laughter). They are trying. (laughter) Where is the liberty? The woman has to carry the child for ten months—nature's way. To go against nature, that is foolishness. God has made woman. Man should have respect . . . (indistinct) . . . what woman can do, man cannot do. What man can do, woman cannot do. So how there can be equal rights? That is not possible. Everyone should do his own duty and be happy. Kāryaṁ karma karoti (BG 6.1): "It is my duty. I have to do it." Husband should give all comforts to the wife; she may not be uncomfortable in any way. They want food, cloth, little ornaments. Yes. In so many ways, the husband must give to keep the woman satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . in India you will find that the poor man, they will get—what is called—lead bangles. They cannot provide silver or gold, but bangle must be there. If not lead, then glass. She will be satisfied with good sārī , good bangle, good foods and some children. Thats all. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya (BG 4.8). Two things. Kṛṣṇa has got two things—to kill the demons and to benedict the devotees. (end) Conversation -- August 5, 1974, Vrndavana . . . the business of the representative of Kṛṣṇa to push the nipple. Because they know what is the necessity. The whole world is upset for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the necessity. It is not a, I mean to say, whimsical sporting. It is the necessity. But they do not know. It is a very responsible task. That is called prayojana . Is it clear? What do you think? Huh? Yes, they . . . there has to be . . . They do not know. The scientists, they do not know what is the necessity. (laughs) Do they know? Do you think, all the scientists, do they know? If they know, they'll be all bhaktas . They do not know. They think it is necessary to gratify the senses. They think that, that by gratifying senses . . . therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad. Chewing the chewed. *Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the Western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras , there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the Western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching, and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena . . . they examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing. *So therefore it is advised that tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . By itching, by satisfying the senses, itching sensation, their troubles and miserable condition increasing. That they do not know. Increasing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu means much; *duḥkha means miserable condition. Therefore one who is sensible: kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . The dhīra , one is sober, he understands, "What I am doing? I am simply trying to eat, and the disease is increasing. Therefore it must be stopped." This is called dhīra . That is called dhīra . That is, one word is used, dhīra , in Kumāra*-sambhava , that Pārvatī was induced. Lord Śiva was in meditation, and the necessity was that Kārttikeya . . . Kārttikeya means "With the semina of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī's," what is called, "semen, they mix together, the child will be born. He can kill these demons." Therefore Kārttik . . . so Lord Śiva was engaged in meditation. So Pārvatī was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Śiva. That's . . . therefore they introduced this, Śiva-liṅga is worshiped. Śiva-liṅga. So when was worshiping, a young girl touching the genital, but he was sitting without any disturbance. Therefore he has been described, dhīra. Dhīra . One who is not disturbed by the sex impulse, even in the presence of very beautiful young girl, he is called dhīra . *So kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . One has to become dhīra . That is wanted. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Twice he was induced by very beautiful young girl at dead of night. But he remained . . . "Yes, I'll satisfy you." He turned . . . that is called dhīra . There is another place. The dhīra word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That dhīra . Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Even by death he is not disturbed. *Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra . Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then . . . that is the prayojana*-siddhi , to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). Bhagavad-bhajan , devotional service of the Lord, means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya : going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). It is dangerous; it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam , to mix with the . . . or . . . mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām . To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra , he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra . Then we are fit candidates for going back to home, back to Godhead. That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. *No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra . Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana*-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahana . And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana; *He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana*-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī. *One is Madan*-madana? *One is Madana, and Kṛṣṇa enchants Madana. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful that Madana becomes enchanted by Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī is so beautiful that Kṛṣṇa becomes enchanted. That is spiritual sex. That is not so ordinary. Therefore the attraction of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir (CC Adi 1.5). This is the spiritual energy, display of spiritual energy. But the sahajiyās , they take as material attractions. As we are attracted, men and women, similarly, they take the Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa attraction is like that . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 5, 1974, Vrndavana . . . the business of the representative of Kṛṣṇa to push the nipple. Because they know what is the necessity. The whole world is upset for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the necessity. It is not a, I mean to say, whimsical sporting. It is the necessity. But they do not know. It is a very responsible task. That is called prayojana . Is it clear? What do you think? Huh? Yes, they . . . there has to be . . . They do not know. The scientists, they do not know what is the necessity. (laughs) Do they know? Do you think, all the scientists, do they know? If they know, they'll be all bhaktas . They do not know. They think it is necessary to gratify the senses. They think that, that by gratifying senses . . . therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad. Chewing the chewed. *Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the Western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras , there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the Western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching, and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena . . . they examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing. *So therefore it is advised that tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . By itching, by satisfying the senses, itching sensation, their troubles and miserable condition increasing. That they do not know. Increasing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu means much; *duḥkha means miserable condition. Therefore one who is sensible: kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . The dhīra , one is sober, he understands, "What I am doing? I am simply trying to eat, and the disease is increasing. Therefore it must be stopped." This is called dhīra . That is called dhīra . That is, one word is used, dhīra , in Kumāra*-sambhava , that Pārvatī was induced. Lord Śiva was in meditation, and the necessity was that Kārttikeya . . . Kārttikeya means "With the semina of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī's," what is called, "semen, they mix together, the child will be born. He can kill these demons." Therefore Kārttik . . . so Lord Śiva was engaged in meditation. So Pārvatī was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Śiva. That's . . . therefore they introduced this, Śiva-liṅga is worshiped. Śiva-liṅga. So when was worshiping, a young girl touching the genital, but he was sitting without any disturbance. Therefore he has been described, dhīra. Dhīra . One who is not disturbed by the sex impulse, even in the presence of very beautiful young girl, he is called dhīra . *So kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . One has to become dhīra . That is wanted. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Twice he was induced by very beautiful young girl at dead of night. But he remained . . . "Yes, I'll satisfy you." He turned . . . that is called dhīra . There is another place. The dhīra word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That dhīra . Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Even by death he is not disturbed. *Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra . Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then . . . that is the prayojana*-siddhi , to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). Bhagavad-bhajan , devotional service of the Lord, means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya : going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). It is dangerous; it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam , to mix with the . . . or . . . mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām . To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra , he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra . Then we are fit candidates for going back to home, back to Godhead. That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. *No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra . Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana*-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahana . And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana; *He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana*-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī. *One is Madan*-madana? *One is Madana, and Kṛṣṇa enchants Madana. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful that Madana becomes enchanted by Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī is so beautiful that Kṛṣṇa becomes enchanted. That is spiritual sex. That is not so ordinary. Therefore the attraction of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir (CC Adi 1.5). This is the spiritual energy, display of spiritual energy. But the sahajiyās , they take as material attractions. As we are attracted, men and women, similarly, they take the Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa attraction is like that . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 10, 1974, Vrndavana . . . within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet. Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā. Long, long ago? Yes. And it was very nice? It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it. Hmm. In India, amongst the Brahmins , this self cooking is very much . . . (indistinct) I think it . . . (break) . . . prasādam in a very simple way. When you cook yourself, very simple. Jaya . (break) *. . . Rādhā*-Dāmodara, did you cook yourself? Hmm. Sarajini helped? Sarajini simply washed the dishes, cleansed the room, set out the bedding. I was cooking. Soviet, Soviet land, I forget the exact title. And this one woman was a poet. Hmm? She was a poet. In one article in the magazine. And she was . . . stated in her magazine how much she was sorry about her youth. Youth. Yeah, that she was living very poorly, and her father had to work all day very hard as a goldsmith or tinsmith. And how she remembers her mother, that she was kept in such poor conditions that all her life she was very miserable. And she said that she was thinking that her mother might have been a great poet or a great scientist, but because of being oppressed by the higher class of Russia, that she could not develop, she simply was forced to live a very poor life. So I was able to understand that actually they are thinking that being oppressed by the higher classes, the lower class cannot properly develop their qualities. *That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot . . . you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer. Best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son*-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that, "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit that, "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things . . . Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been . . . but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to . . . they write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. You see? This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām . You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām ? "Without envy"? Yes. The whole world is envious. Whole world. I am envious to you; you are envious of me. Then Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām ( SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa, and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it . . . it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take others' money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to . . . he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is animal, it was deluded that, "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." Even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also . . . how can you stop it? That will be not stopped'. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working. *This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful young woman, but you will be not . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam . Acireṇa dhīraḥ . *So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra . He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desire, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch . . . (indistinct) . . . never satisfied. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam , that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease, lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease. Similarly, these . . . all these living entities, they have succumbed—what is called, succumb?—by lusty desire. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be . . . then there is no more envious that, "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking, "I shall become minister"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become leader"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become millionaire"; and at last, "I shall become God." *So even the so*-called religionist, the heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī . Bhukti means ordinary karmīs , want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti , they also want, "I shall become God. I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." "One with God" means I'll become. Bhukti, mukti and siddhi . The yogīs , they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing . . . (indistinct) . . . Pagala Baba. He has some yogic siddhi , so he has some . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that, "If I pay him one lakh , I shall get two lakhs ." This is the propaganda. It is a . . . what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful, you will get four rupees. Siddhi . Because material world, they think, "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking—nation-wise, individual—how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished, accomplishment coming on one side, one side it is burst out into war. But you see, propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome? Yes. You have seen? They have a pyramid? Yes, they have brought. It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt. And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In Rome, they are also maintaining such museum, and Paris I saw. This is their competition—wholesale plundering. Wholesale plundering. They take it . . . (break) We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not a civilization. And *Mahābhārata* history also we find so many demons. Just like . . . what is called, that asura , he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses. Bhaumāsura? Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They pray to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of . . . then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that, "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . this is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle . . . (indistinct) . . . the Musselman nawabs, they used to keep . . . that one nawab in . . . they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the . . . (indistinct) . . . and his wife. So he has got three wives—one Bengali wife, one U.P. wife, and his original wife being dead. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his. (laughs) He cannot keep them satisfied. How it is possible? He's an old man, and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection—beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally. They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class. That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy. This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment. *(indistinct) . . . grama*-kuli. Jala-batta . . . (indistinct) . . . he is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascals' poetry, just like in your country: one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside) You should not show your feet this is the etiquette. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu , "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody . . . therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? . . . (indistinct) They'll all be cheated. No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave; artificially he thinks, "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam (BG 16.13). Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money . . . (indistinct) . . . lot of money, so who is better than me?" . . . (indistinct) . . . she has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road: the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal . . . (indistinct) . . . an apartment, very nice apartment . . . (indistinct) . . . it is . . . fact is there. Either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no . . . (indistinct) So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass. Eh? Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass. Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, then he will be accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness. "Therefore let me eliminate you." Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsaratā. Yayā sammohito jīva . *Yayā sammohito jīva . Vyāsadeva, by bhakti*-yoga , he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā . . . Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva : that māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam (SB 1.7.5). And being captivated by this māyā , although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate . In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw. *So this is called anartha , a position which is false. So, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ . The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . Therefore Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje . These things are there in the Bhāgavata . Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing. *This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau , for the benefit of the whole world. We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī , they do for their own person. Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs , for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau . Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau . Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa , "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant." "I want to only eat the dust of the . . . (indistinct) . . . feet." Everything is there; *simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means life of realization, self*-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself . . . (indistinct) . . . "What I am?" (pause) (break) *But if you remain diseased, then . . . just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First*-class things are being made—nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease, is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom; *I shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . ." Similarly, the so*-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there, "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogīs , they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta' (CC Madhya 19.149). By kṛṣṇa-bhakti , you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ (SB 10.33.39). This is only . . . unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying, and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam . (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, this . . . (indistinct) . . . created . . . (indistinct) . . . little. And even he is thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām . Material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step . . . (end) Conversation -- September 10, 1974, Vrndavana . . . within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet. Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā. Long, long ago? Yes. And it was very nice? It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it. Hmm. In India, amongst the Brahmins , this self cooking is very much . . . (indistinct) I think it . . . (break) . . . prasādam in a very simple way. When you cook yourself, very simple. Jaya . (break) *. . . Rādhā*-Dāmodara, did you cook yourself? Hmm. Sarajini helped? Sarajini simply washed the dishes, cleansed the room, set out the bedding. I was cooking. Soviet, Soviet land, I forget the exact title. And this one woman was a poet. Hmm? She was a poet. In one article in the magazine. And she was . . . stated in her magazine how much she was sorry about her youth. Youth. Yeah, that she was living very poorly, and her father had to work all day very hard as a goldsmith or tinsmith. And how she remembers her mother, that she was kept in such poor conditions that all her life she was very miserable. And she said that she was thinking that her mother might have been a great poet or a great scientist, but because of being oppressed by the higher class of Russia, that she could not develop, she simply was forced to live a very poor life. So I was able to understand that actually they are thinking that being oppressed by the higher classes, the lower class cannot properly develop their qualities. *That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot . . . you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer. Best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son*-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that, "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit that, "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things . . . Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been . . . but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to . . . they write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. You see? This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām . You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām ? "Without envy"? Yes. The whole world is envious. Whole world. I am envious to you; you are envious of me. Then Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām ( SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa, and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it . . . it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take others' money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to . . . he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is animal, it was deluded that, "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." Even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also . . . how can you stop it? That will be not stopped'. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working. *This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful young woman, but you will be not . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam . Acireṇa dhīraḥ . *So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra . He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desire, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch . . . (indistinct) . . . never satisfied. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam , that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease, lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease. Similarly, these . . . all these living entities, they have succumbed—what is called, succumb?—by lusty desire. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be . . . then there is no more envious that, "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking, "I shall become minister"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become leader"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become millionaire"; and at last, "I shall become God." *So even the so*-called religionist, the heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī . Bhukti means ordinary karmīs , want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti , they also want, "I shall become God. I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." "One with God" means I'll become. Bhukti, mukti and siddhi . The yogīs , they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing . . . (indistinct) . . . Pagala Baba. He has some yogic siddhi , so he has some . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that, "If I pay him one lakh , I shall get two lakhs ." This is the propaganda. It is a . . . what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful, you will get four rupees. Siddhi . Because material world, they think, "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking—nation-wise, individual—how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished, accomplishment coming on one side, one side it is burst out into war. But you see, propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome? Yes. You have seen? They have a pyramid? Yes, they have brought. It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt. And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In Rome, they are also maintaining such museum, and Paris I saw. This is their competition—wholesale plundering. Wholesale plundering. They take it . . . (break) We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not a civilization. And *Mahābhārata* history also we find so many demons. Just like . . . what is called, that asura , he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses. Bhaumāsura? Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They pray to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of . . . then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that, "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . this is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle . . . (indistinct) . . . the Musselman nawabs, they used to keep . . . that one nawab in . . . they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the . . . (indistinct) . . . and his wife. So he has got three wives—one Bengali wife, one U.P. wife, and his original wife being dead. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his. (laughs) He cannot keep them satisfied. How it is possible? He's an old man, and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection—beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally. They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class. That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy. This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment. *(indistinct) . . . grama*-kuli. Jala-batta . . . (indistinct) . . . he is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascals' poetry, just like in your country: one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside) You should not show your feet this is the etiquette. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu , "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody . . . therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? . . . (indistinct) They'll all be cheated. No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave; artificially he thinks, "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam (BG 16.13). Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money . . . (indistinct) . . . lot of money, so who is better than me?" . . . (indistinct) . . . she has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road: the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal . . . (indistinct) . . . an apartment, very nice apartment . . . (indistinct) . . . it is . . . fact is there. Either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no . . . (indistinct) So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass. Eh? Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass. Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, then he will be accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness. "Therefore let me eliminate you." Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsaratā. Yayā sammohito jīva . *Yayā sammohito jīva . Vyāsadeva, by bhakti*-yoga , he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā . . . Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva : that māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam (SB 1.7.5). And being captivated by this māyā , although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate . In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw. *So this is called anartha , a position which is false. So, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ . The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . Therefore Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje . These things are there in the Bhāgavata . Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing. *This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau , for the benefit of the whole world. We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī , they do for their own person. Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs , for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau . Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau . Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa , "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant." "I want to only eat the dust of the . . . (indistinct) . . . feet." Everything is there; *simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means life of realization, self*-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself . . . (indistinct) . . . "What I am?" (pause) (break) *But if you remain diseased, then . . . just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First*-class things are being made—nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease, is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom; *I shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . ." Similarly, the so*-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there, "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogīs , they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta' (CC Madhya 19.149). By kṛṣṇa-bhakti , you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ (SB 10.33.39). This is only . . . unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying, and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam . (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, this . . . (indistinct) . . . created . . . (indistinct) . . . little. And even he is thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām . Material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step . . . (end) Conversation -- September 11, 1974, Vrndavana It will go on like that. In America, in Moscow, why you are envious of me? That disease is there. His enviousness is a different quality. Actually, comparing with America, the people are more happy in America, not in Russia. It's a fact. I have seen it. They are terrorized. No freedom. So everyone is terrorized. They must be. What is that? Is that life? I have to live under terrorism conditions. I must do it . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not life. Here comes Gurudāsa. (break) Morning, 11 September, 1974, Vṛndāvana. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that manager and assisting managers is not difficult, except that all the European and American boys didn't understand the concept of prabhu . We each call each other prabhu , but we are thinking that, "I am prabhu , and all others are servants," not that the one I am calling prabhu or the one who is calling me prabhu are mutual prabhus . (break) He's typing the tapes now. To type one tape takes him about eight hours. Eight hours? Yes. How is that? That is the usual time. Hmm. It's not possible. Eh? It's not possible to take so long. But he puts the Bengali and the Sanskrit in. They were telling me three to four hours. Who? (break) *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavata is being accepted everywhere. Big, big libraries, universities. University, Bombay University. As far as possible . . . (indistinct) . . . all colleges. (break) There is no . . . (indistinct) . . . making word meaning, word-to-word meaning . . . (indistinct) . . . when there is word . . . (break) You should be clear of all questions possible. Then you will be able to push very forcibly. You must be prepared to answer all the questions. Prabhupāda, one question: You say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all problems. But factually, there are so many problems in the world that aren't being solved. Hmm? So many problems in the world, and many say that they can solve all the problems. So what is the proof? They could not. The problems are there. Sometimes we are criticized. They say: "Oh, you say you can solve all problems. That is utopian. That is . . ." Not utopian. You do not know. Because just like when you are diseased, there is problem. So to solve that problem, where do you go? Hmm? To the doctor. To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent; *not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru . So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru ? He taught, He gave lesson to Brahmā, the original living being in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā . He gave lesson to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, . . . (indistinct) . . . he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme guru . To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble. You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru , instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru . That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet , vidhi-liṅ . In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhi-liṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. *So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru . Tene brahma ādi*-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi , the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not solved any question. Therefore required, they say, revolution. Problem is not solved. We are accepting one wrong process, and after going through it for some time, we want to change it. That is not solution. That means you do not know how to make it solved; *you're simply trying this method, that method, this method, that method. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not perfect. But because you cannot solve, therefore you say that a periodical revolution is required, because you have no solution. You do not know how to solve, but you accept some process for some time, and when you see it is useless, you make revolution, another . . . (indistinct) . . . imperfect. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). Practically we see that. There is sex. Material life means sex pleasure. You told me you were in Mexico, in the street they are having sex? Yes. Oh, meaning in public? Yes, you told me. What is that? They have it with . . . you mean with the asses? Yes. Yes. *Just see. Public street. Because they do not know except sex, they think this kind of sex is very nice. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): chewing the chewed. They're not satisfied with sex with a man, so they have it with an ass. *(greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Their center is sex—this sex or that sex or that sex, even ordinarily. In Paris, Paris you know, it is a city of prostitutes. On the roads there are prostitutes. Where we have got our temple, so many prostitutes are standing. And those who are prostitute*-hunters, they go to Paris. From our childhood I know about one family physician. We are at that time boy, eight or ten years old. He was talking with his another Muhammadan friend how he toured many countries and how many different types of prostitutes he taste. This was his talk. So he was talking of Paris, "Though you are boy . . ." This we could understand. This is the talk. Old men, retired men, they will also talk of sex . . . (indistinct) . . . and they will enjoy. Now they could not enjoy sex, but by talking . . . and we have practically seen when we were young, our grandmother-in-law, my father-in-law's mother, old lady, she would talk freely about sex. She will ask me, "You capture the breast of your wife." She would make a pun and enjoy. "You do like that, you do like that." She teaches like that. We were . . . I was twenty, twenty-three years, so I was just married, but she will enjoy sex. She had other grandchildren. My father-in-law were two brothers. So my father-in-law, he was younger brother, and his elder brother, her daughter was of the same age, she would enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . . grandson-in-law. There is a proverb . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Ministers, nine ministers. The minister, famous. Birbal. Birbal. So Akbar Vasar asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day, all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar Vasar's house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar Vasar's daughter, king's daughter, very . . . (indistinct) . . . so the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar Vasar. He was looking over that young girl. Both of them are intelligent. Then Akbar Vasar said, "Yes. You are right" *And our śāstra says, yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi . There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi . What is the standard of happiness? Maithuna , sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi . All these gṛhasthas , you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life. They are busy. Especially in India you will find, they spend thousands lakhs of rupees for son's and daughter's and grandson's sex life. Is it not? That is their happiness. "I am enjoying sex life." Just like my grandmother*-in-law. She is concentrating on sex life. So she was old; *she had no opportunity. Let grandson*-in-law, granddaughter. One who is impotent, he wants to see others enjoying sex life. You know this? He enjoys. He cannot do it. There are many person, he is impotent, so he brings another man to his wife, then he watches. You know this? This is going on. Sex. They will see the dog's sex life, very . . . (indistinct) . . . how he is enjoying. Cow's sex life. Dog is having sex, and there will be a crowd. *This is the basic principle of material life: sex. In this way, prostitution, this way, that way, that way, that way. This is the only point. There is no other aim. Yan maithunadi*-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). And this kind of happiness is most abominable. Most abominable. But that is the center of happiness. Is it not? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham . Most abominable part of the body for passing urine, obnoxious smell, but that is the point of life. How much degraded this material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ . The śāstra has picked up most abominable thing: that is the point of pleasure. Yan maithunādi. Maithunādi , either he himself, or for his son, for his grandson, for his great-grandson, the family. Very aristocratic. *So if we study analytically, we can understand that how much we are in illusion. This most abominable thing, we are taking it is the center of happiness. (break) Therefore, Vaiṣṇava . . . (indistinct) . . . māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, they are enjoying a certain type of most abominable happiness. Tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha . So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me, I have no problem. All problems solved." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyām tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ . "I am not afraid of this material world, because I have learned how to enjoy life simply by thinking of Your pastimes. But I am unhappy." Soce. Soce means unhappy. Why? Tato vimukha-cetasa . "These rascals who have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have made huge arrangement simply for sex." Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān . "I am thinking of these rascals, how they can be delivered from this fallen condition." So the Vaiṣṇava has no problem; *he has got Kṛṣṇa. But he wants to preach to save these rascals. This is Vaiṣṇava's duty. But if he is fallen himself, how he can save others? That is not possible. Then it will be andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is leading others. What is that? They will all fall into ditch. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, bharata*-bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari' (CC Adi 9.41): "First of all you be perfect, because you have got opportunity, and then do para-upakāra . Then go to other country and deliver them." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Not that you remain blind and go there. Just like all these rascal svāmīs and yogīs , they are blind. They do not know what is spiritual life. Andhā yathāndhair . They are blind, and their talks are simply big, big talks . . . (indistinct) . . . here also, this Rakhanananda, he is speaking on Bhāgavata . He is a rascal, blind; he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He is misleading others. You have seen in Bombay that Sadajivatlal brought some pictures? Yes. Mīrābhāi is becoming mixed up with Kṛṣṇa. Have seen it? Yes, that was the final point. She worshiped Kṛṣṇa throughout her whole life so at the end she could become one with Him. This is going on, the Māyāvādī rascals. But they do not refer where Kṛṣṇa says that, "You become My devotee, then you become pushed . . . (indistinct) . . ." They showed the two bodies coming together. Eh? I think the picture of the two bodies . . . *Kṛṣṇa says that, "You and Me and all these soldiers, we existed before, we are existing now, and we shall exist in this way in future." Where does He say that, "We shall be mixed up"? Never says. And these rascals, they have got so many parties, the same thing. Where do you get this idea? There is sayujya*-mukti , but Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You take it." All this Ramakrishna Mission, all these, this . . . (indistinct) . . . he gives the example that rivers come from different sources, but when it comes to the ocean it is mixed up. Why don't you see within the water? Within the water there are big, big fishes, they do not mix up with the water. They see superficially the water. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Our philosophy is, "Come. Come here, play with Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy. Come here, dance with Kṛṣṇa as gopī . Come here, accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, Kṛṣṇa will accept you as your (His) mother." There will be always two, and enjoy, any way. Even as enemy, demon displaying part of enemy, Kṛṣṇa killing, that is also pastime too. That is also enjoyment. Just like sometimes we fight, friend to friend, to enjoy life, because fighting is enjoyment. To become enemy of Kṛṣṇa purposefully, and to fight with Him, that is giving pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying, and He also becomes so staunch enemy. So this is also transcendental pleasure. Just like Bhīṣma. He is piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa, and He is coming with cakra . That is a pleasure. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying being pierced by His devotee. And devotee is enjoying, "Now Kṛṣṇa is coming to kill me." *So any way you can deal with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy transcendental pleasure, either as enemy or as friend or as son or as lover, as master, as a servant—any way. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to deal with you any way, in twelve rasas, akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Raso vai saḥ , in the Vedas , He is the reservoir of all pleasure, transcendental. Labdha-nandini . When we exchange rasa , transcendental mellow, labdha-nandini , then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered round the sex, this way, that way, similarly the transcendentalist, they are . . . their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen? Yes, in . . . (indistinct) The center is sex. The birds. The birds also. Everyone. *Yāmunācārya. He was a great king. So his . . . as king, his life was sex. But then he became a devotee, he admits, yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde : "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne , "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ , "I taste that . . . (indistinct) . . ." suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ , (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting sound)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins. This is the proof, Yāmunācārya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne . So not actually doing; *simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting sound) What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata , hear Bhāgavata, rasa*-līlā . They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā , then that lusty desires will be finished. *That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source . . . (indistinct) . . . then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd*-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ . Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same things. They publish book. One rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has published. In Paris we saw. The Myth of Kṛṣṇa? Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nation. The United Nations is also encouraging sex. *They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered round that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is there. They do not know anything else. That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point. *Therefore the Freud philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam . Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Ṭhākura took his compassion: "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she become purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end) Conversation -- September 11, 1974, Vrndavana It will go on like that. In America, in Moscow, why you are envious of me? That disease is there. His enviousness is a different quality. Actually, comparing with America, the people are more happy in America, not in Russia. It's a fact. I have seen it. They are terrorized. No freedom. So everyone is terrorized. They must be. What is that? Is that life? I have to live under terrorism conditions. I must do it . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not life. Here comes Gurudāsa. (break) Morning, 11 September, 1974, Vṛndāvana. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that manager and assisting managers is not difficult, except that all the European and American boys didn't understand the concept of prabhu . We each call each other prabhu , but we are thinking that, "I am prabhu , and all others are servants," not that the one I am calling prabhu or the one who is calling me prabhu are mutual prabhus . (break) He's typing the tapes now. To type one tape takes him about eight hours. Eight hours? Yes. How is that? That is the usual time. Hmm. It's not possible. Eh? It's not possible to take so long. But he puts the Bengali and the Sanskrit in. They were telling me three to four hours. Who? (break) *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavata is being accepted everywhere. Big, big libraries, universities. University, Bombay University. As far as possible . . . (indistinct) . . . all colleges. (break) There is no . . . (indistinct) . . . making word meaning, word-to-word meaning . . . (indistinct) . . . when there is word . . . (break) You should be clear of all questions possible. Then you will be able to push very forcibly. You must be prepared to answer all the questions. Prabhupāda, one question: You say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all problems. But factually, there are so many problems in the world that aren't being solved. Hmm? So many problems in the world, and many say that they can solve all the problems. So what is the proof? They could not. The problems are there. Sometimes we are criticized. They say: "Oh, you say you can solve all problems. That is utopian. That is . . ." Not utopian. You do not know. Because just like when you are diseased, there is problem. So to solve that problem, where do you go? Hmm? To the doctor. To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent; *not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru . So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru ? He taught, He gave lesson to Brahmā, the original living being in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā . He gave lesson to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, . . . (indistinct) . . . he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme guru . To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble. You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru , instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru . That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet , vidhi-liṅ . In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhi-liṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. *So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru . Tene brahma ādi*-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi , the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not solved any question. Therefore required, they say, revolution. Problem is not solved. We are accepting one wrong process, and after going through it for some time, we want to change it. That is not solution. That means you do not know how to make it solved; *you're simply trying this method, that method, this method, that method. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not perfect. But because you cannot solve, therefore you say that a periodical revolution is required, because you have no solution. You do not know how to solve, but you accept some process for some time, and when you see it is useless, you make revolution, another . . . (indistinct) . . . imperfect. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). Practically we see that. There is sex. Material life means sex pleasure. You told me you were in Mexico, in the street they are having sex? Yes. Oh, meaning in public? Yes, you told me. What is that? They have it with . . . you mean with the asses? Yes. Yes. *Just see. Public street. Because they do not know except sex, they think this kind of sex is very nice. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): chewing the chewed. They're not satisfied with sex with a man, so they have it with an ass. *(greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Their center is sex—this sex or that sex or that sex, even ordinarily. In Paris, Paris you know, it is a city of prostitutes. On the roads there are prostitutes. Where we have got our temple, so many prostitutes are standing. And those who are prostitute*-hunters, they go to Paris. From our childhood I know about one family physician. We are at that time boy, eight or ten years old. He was talking with his another Muhammadan friend how he toured many countries and how many different types of prostitutes he taste. This was his talk. So he was talking of Paris, "Though you are boy . . ." This we could understand. This is the talk. Old men, retired men, they will also talk of sex . . . (indistinct) . . . and they will enjoy. Now they could not enjoy sex, but by talking . . . and we have practically seen when we were young, our grandmother-in-law, my father-in-law's mother, old lady, she would talk freely about sex. She will ask me, "You capture the breast of your wife." She would make a pun and enjoy. "You do like that, you do like that." She teaches like that. We were . . . I was twenty, twenty-three years, so I was just married, but she will enjoy sex. She had other grandchildren. My father-in-law were two brothers. So my father-in-law, he was younger brother, and his elder brother, her daughter was of the same age, she would enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . . grandson-in-law. There is a proverb . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Ministers, nine ministers. The minister, famous. Birbal. Birbal. So Akbar Vasar asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day, all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar Vasar's house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar Vasar's daughter, king's daughter, very . . . (indistinct) . . . so the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar Vasar. He was looking over that young girl. Both of them are intelligent. Then Akbar Vasar said, "Yes. You are right" *And our śāstra says, yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi . There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi . What is the standard of happiness? Maithuna , sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi . All these gṛhasthas , you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life. They are busy. Especially in India you will find, they spend thousands lakhs of rupees for son's and daughter's and grandson's sex life. Is it not? That is their happiness. "I am enjoying sex life." Just like my grandmother*-in-law. She is concentrating on sex life. So she was old; *she had no opportunity. Let grandson*-in-law, granddaughter. One who is impotent, he wants to see others enjoying sex life. You know this? He enjoys. He cannot do it. There are many person, he is impotent, so he brings another man to his wife, then he watches. You know this? This is going on. Sex. They will see the dog's sex life, very . . . (indistinct) . . . how he is enjoying. Cow's sex life. Dog is having sex, and there will be a crowd. *This is the basic principle of material life: sex. In this way, prostitution, this way, that way, that way, that way. This is the only point. There is no other aim. Yan maithunadi*-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). And this kind of happiness is most abominable. Most abominable. But that is the center of happiness. Is it not? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham . Most abominable part of the body for passing urine, obnoxious smell, but that is the point of life. How much degraded this material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ . The śāstra has picked up most abominable thing: that is the point of pleasure. Yan maithunādi. Maithunādi , either he himself, or for his son, for his grandson, for his great-grandson, the family. Very aristocratic. *So if we study analytically, we can understand that how much we are in illusion. This most abominable thing, we are taking it is the center of happiness. (break) Therefore, Vaiṣṇava . . . (indistinct) . . . māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, they are enjoying a certain type of most abominable happiness. Tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha . So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me, I have no problem. All problems solved." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyām tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ . "I am not afraid of this material world, because I have learned how to enjoy life simply by thinking of Your pastimes. But I am unhappy." Soce. Soce means unhappy. Why? Tato vimukha-cetasa . "These rascals who have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have made huge arrangement simply for sex." Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān . "I am thinking of these rascals, how they can be delivered from this fallen condition." So the Vaiṣṇava has no problem; *he has got Kṛṣṇa. But he wants to preach to save these rascals. This is Vaiṣṇava's duty. But if he is fallen himself, how he can save others? That is not possible. Then it will be andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is leading others. What is that? They will all fall into ditch. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, bharata*-bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari' (CC Adi 9.41): "First of all you be perfect, because you have got opportunity, and then do para-upakāra . Then go to other country and deliver them." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Not that you remain blind and go there. Just like all these rascal svāmīs and yogīs , they are blind. They do not know what is spiritual life. Andhā yathāndhair . They are blind, and their talks are simply big, big talks . . . (indistinct) . . . here also, this Rakhanananda, he is speaking on Bhāgavata . He is a rascal, blind; he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He is misleading others. You have seen in Bombay that Sadajivatlal brought some pictures? Yes. Mīrābhāi is becoming mixed up with Kṛṣṇa. Have seen it? Yes, that was the final point. She worshiped Kṛṣṇa throughout her whole life so at the end she could become one with Him. This is going on, the Māyāvādī rascals. But they do not refer where Kṛṣṇa says that, "You become My devotee, then you become pushed . . . (indistinct) . . ." They showed the two bodies coming together. Eh? I think the picture of the two bodies . . . *Kṛṣṇa says that, "You and Me and all these soldiers, we existed before, we are existing now, and we shall exist in this way in future." Where does He say that, "We shall be mixed up"? Never says. And these rascals, they have got so many parties, the same thing. Where do you get this idea? There is sayujya*-mukti , but Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You take it." All this Ramakrishna Mission, all these, this . . . (indistinct) . . . he gives the example that rivers come from different sources, but when it comes to the ocean it is mixed up. Why don't you see within the water? Within the water there are big, big fishes, they do not mix up with the water. They see superficially the water. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Our philosophy is, "Come. Come here, play with Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy. Come here, dance with Kṛṣṇa as gopī . Come here, accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, Kṛṣṇa will accept you as your (His) mother." There will be always two, and enjoy, any way. Even as enemy, demon displaying part of enemy, Kṛṣṇa killing, that is also pastime too. That is also enjoyment. Just like sometimes we fight, friend to friend, to enjoy life, because fighting is enjoyment. To become enemy of Kṛṣṇa purposefully, and to fight with Him, that is giving pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying, and He also becomes so staunch enemy. So this is also transcendental pleasure. Just like Bhīṣma. He is piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa, and He is coming with cakra . That is a pleasure. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying being pierced by His devotee. And devotee is enjoying, "Now Kṛṣṇa is coming to kill me." *So any way you can deal with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy transcendental pleasure, either as enemy or as friend or as son or as lover, as master, as a servant—any way. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to deal with you any way, in twelve rasas, akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Raso vai saḥ , in the Vedas , He is the reservoir of all pleasure, transcendental. Labdha-nandini . When we exchange rasa , transcendental mellow, labdha-nandini , then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered round the sex, this way, that way, similarly the transcendentalist, they are . . . their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen? Yes, in . . . (indistinct) The center is sex. The birds. The birds also. Everyone. *Yāmunācārya. He was a great king. So his . . . as king, his life was sex. But then he became a devotee, he admits, yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde : "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne , "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ , "I taste that . . . (indistinct) . . ." suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ , (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting sound)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins. This is the proof, Yāmunācārya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne . So not actually doing; *simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting sound) What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata , hear Bhāgavata, rasa*-līlā . They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā , then that lusty desires will be finished. *That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source . . . (indistinct) . . . then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd*-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ . Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same things. They publish book. One rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has published. In Paris we saw. The Myth of Kṛṣṇa? Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nation. The United Nations is also encouraging sex. *They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered round that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is there. They do not know anything else. That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point. *Therefore the Freud philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam . Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Ṭhākura took his compassion: "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she become purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end) Conversation after Lecture -- May 6, 1968, Boston *Prabhupāda: When the result of the karma is offered to God, then it is karma*-yoga. Satsvarūpa: Swāmījī? Can I make an announcement? Swāmījī has said there are fifty important pilgrimage cities in India, but as far as we're concerned here, it's whatever city His Divine Grace is residing in. So right now it's Boston. And he will stay here so long as it's the best place to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have some taste for it. You can help us to keep Boston this city of pilgrimage. We need engagements for Swāmījī. The universities will be closing . . . well, some of them are almost already closed. But if you have any access to a nice engagement, a church or a club where people attend, please approach us and help us to spread in this way. *Also we have a Love Feast here in the temple every Sunday at noon, and this is very sumptuous bhakti*-yoga Love Feast, with Indian delicacies that you'll certainly enjoy. So approach this way. We'll take collections at this time also. You can help us very solidly by putting in all that you can. Our next kīrtana is scheduled for Wednesday–Monday, Wednesday and Friday—but it won't be, because it will be held at MIT instead, in the student mezzanine lounge in the third floor at eight. Prabhupāda: Wednesday there will be no meeting here? Satsvarūpa: Yes, there'll be no kīrtana . That's the next engagement, May 8th. Also, does anyone have a car? Swāmījī lives nine blocks away. Prabhupāda: You have got your car? Thank you. I'm here since 1965 . . . (indistinct) . . . again I come back . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: If you would like to stay we are going to have some personality . . . (indistinct) . . . you may remain very welcome. (background talking) *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā who can . . . (indistinct) . . . commented . . . (indistinct) . . . just like you are medical man. You are authorized by the state college to practise . . . (indistinct) . . . is that nice? Without going to special college without any training. So who will accept? This is going on. One who is not authorized he is commenting on . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Swami, if this is senseless talk and it disturbs the tranquility of the āśrama then it shouldn't be, be stressed. Prabhupāda: Calculative . . . why it will disturb you? . . . (indistinct) . . . to understand this perhaps argument. There is no discussion. We talk with you on the basis of . . . (indistinct) . . . little then why are we discussing? No. We put everything for accepting with judgement not blindly . . . (indistinct) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- August 18, 1968, Montreal (Conversation with first devotees going to London on evening of their departure) Prabhupāda: You can plaster together, up and down, and each and every one of them . . . each and every one of them is separately sevenfolded covered. The watery portion is beyond the sevenfold covering. And each covering is ten times more expansive than the previous covering. The Personality of Godhead creates all such universes by His breathing period, lies above the cluster of the universes. (break) Janārdana: So there's four . . . there's water, air, fire, ether and pradhāna . This is given. (break) This should be corrected. Prabhupāda: Third Canto, it is five coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in the Second Canto seven coverings? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seven kinds of subtle, and these five covering is gross. So subtle should be taken. So subtle should be taken also. Janārdana: Yes. Is pradhāna subtle matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: So the subtle is moving the gross like the miller's wheel. The potter's wheel moves the pot. So the pradhāna . . . so the mind is moving the body. So the pradhāna . . . they simply put pradhāna . . . Prabhupāda: If it is mentioned five, then it is five gross, and seven means subtle. So five or seven . . . of course, seven is more explicit than the five. Janārdana: I never see anywhere where it is mentioned that there's an earth covering. It's always water as the first. Water is the first layer that's given. So there are four of the elements. Then . . . Prabhupāda: Then above water there is air. *Janārdana: Air, fire, ether. Water, fire, air, ether, and then this pradhāna . So pradhāna is split up into the three: ahaṇkāra, mahat*-tattva and . . . what's . . .? Prabhupāda: Pradhāna is material ingredient, material cause. Janārdana: Material cause. Prabhupāda: And prakṛti . . . Janārdana: Is the efficient cause. Prabhupāda: Efficient cause. *Janārdana: That is in the Brahma*-saṁhitā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: I have the page. Prabhupāda: This is Third Canto? Janārdana: Third Canto. I have fragments of it. Satsvarūpa Prabhu gave me some fragments that he had. So I have a couple of books like this. (break) Prabhupāda: I shall put here. (break) . . . and you . . . the New York boys' opinion is to start a press in New York will be nice, because there is so many other facilities for press work. If the press goes wrong, there are immediate, I mean to say, what is called, mechanics to repair it. In other places it is not possible. (break) All right. We shall think over it. Janārdana: About the press in New York? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Well, Montreal center has a room for a press. However, there is the inconvenience that the building may be torn down in two years. Prabhupāda: What about that other building, that storefront down? Janārdana: A storefront downstairs? I don't know all the details about that. I haven't been looking into . . . Prabhupāda: You told me that there is a church for sale on the other side of the park? Janārdana: Yes, there is. Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that church? Janārdana: It's on Esplanade Street. Prabhupāda: On the corner? Janārdana: It's on a corner. It's on the corner of Esplanade and the other street. I don't remember. I can go on my bicycle and take a look there. Prabhupāda: That's a very big building? *Janārdana: It is a three*-story house. It is about the size of one of these houses here, not the apartment houses but . . . Prabhupāda: That, some cross? Janārdana: Yes, there's a cross there. Prabhupāda: Pasture? It is written Pasture? Janārdana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That's small building. Janārdana: That is small? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen it. Janārdana: You've seen it. You take walks so far over there? (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's not a very big building. Janārdana: Not good enough for you. (laughter) Well, there's a synagogue . . . Prabhupāda: So what did you do about this building? You have not written anything? Janārdana: Well, I haven't had a minute all week. Prabhupāda: You must today finish it. We must borrow type and send it. Janārdana: Okay, I'll finish it today. All this week I was so engaged around the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our engagement should be on that point, that these people will not easily understand, so we are not going to waste time for nothing. If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. Yes. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. You see? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that photar kathara sei usane na : "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him." Especially in this country. If you become free speaker, then he's not taken into . . . very serious. So we must charge. In Boston, all the lectures Satsvarūpa arranged, they paid hundred dollars, at least fifty dollars. Janārdana: If they pay, then they will have to get something out of it. They will force themselves to get something out of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone paid. The Massachusetts Technical College and the Eastern University. Eastern University there is . . .? Janārdana: I think so. Prabhupāda: Then Harvard University and Boston University, and one church. They have paid, yes. And one church, Arlington Church, in that church . . . I think you were present there? Arlington Church? Govinda dasi: Unitarian? Prabhupāda: No. You have not been in Boston. Some girls from temple, they were present. Govinda dasi: Annapūrṇa? She was there? Prabhupāda: Annapūrṇa is always present wherever I go. (laughing) She is very nice, that she wants to follow me. This morning I was asking her that, "After your marriage, where you want to stay?" and she said: "Wherever you stay, I stay." And "I am traveling. Then you are married. You must have a place to settle." Anyway, in that church they charged us for meeting, but we collected very nicely. We collected more than hundred dollars. Yes. A very nice meeting. Janārdana: How many people were there? Prabhupāda: More than hundred. Because we collected hundred dollars, and almost, they have paid one dollar. Janārdana: The summer season is very slow in Montreal. The churches cut down their sermon programs. The synagogues don't having sermons in the summer very often. So that's why we haven't had so many engagements. But in the month of September things begin to pick up faster. The coldest time of the year is the busiest time of the year here, actually. The real busy season is January and February. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was speaking to Gaurasundara that Janārdana speaks, "The winter season is the busiest season," and you said: "It is dull season"? (chuckles) Janārdana: January and February are the busiest, and they are the coldest months, too. Prabhupāda: Very busy? Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: How you are feeling, Śāradīyā? Nice? Śāradīyā: I'm fine. Prabhupāda: You are going to Europe? No? You have got to attend your school? That's nice. (to devotees leaving for London) So your program is starting tomorrow morning? Yamunā: Five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Five o'clock? Yamunā: That's when we have to get out. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So you are going by taxi? Gurudāsa: To the airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Yes, I think so. Devotee (2): You'd have to. Yamunā: Three taxis. Prabhupāda: Why three taxis? Mālatī: Two taxis. There are so many of us and so much baggage. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So for me, I shall be ready to start as soon as we hear from you. Yes. And tomorrow I shall expect mail. I don't think I am going to Vancouver, because from Upendra's letter it is not very encouraging, and I don't think Mr. Renovich will, on his personal account, call me and pay me. I don't think so. So what is your next program here? Janārdana: Then the next program here . . . well, the busy season will begin. So I'll go to McGill and Sir George Williams universities and some churches also, and I'll try to get speaking engagements. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . building? Janārdana: Possibly. Maybe I'll find a place on the other side of the mountain for you, because the man here insisted if we take this for September, we must take it for the whole year. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . means October, November, December? Janārdana: Until next year in September. Twelve months. Prabhupāda: Ho, ho! (laughter) That is not possible. Janārdana: That's what he's asking now. (break) Prabhupāda: Because in the winter season they don't get tenants? Janārdana: Well, a few will get easily tenants, but he wants to get a tenant for the whole winter. And September is a month when there is the best chance for getting a tenant, because that's when all the student population comes back into town, and this is a student district. And so in the month of September he would like to either get a tenant for the whole year or leave the place open. But maybe I can persuade him. Because it is not very easy to find a suitable apartment for only one month in Montreal. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . pare dhana parke diye nija labha cora : "I borrowed something from you, and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughing) So . . . "I borrow from you and I lend him. He does not pay me, and I become thief." Pare dhana parke diya nija labha cora . So that means this is warning: One should not do like that. One should not take responsibility for a person where there is no connection. *(break) Everywhere the principle of self*-interest is there. That is *(break) there. But real self*-interest is Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa we can do anything, because He is supreme Self. Bījo 'ham sarva-bhūtānāṁ ( BG 7.10). He is the Self of selves. (break) Where is Haṁsadūta? What he's doing there? Devotee (1): I think he's cooking. Prabhupāda: Cooking? (laughs) He's very expert cooking. (laughs) Janārdana: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And Himavati also, assisting her husband? Devotee (1): I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta likes to cook. Yamunā: Oh, he loves it. Prabhupāda: So he wants to open a restaurant. Janārdana: Here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our, I mean to say, ISKCON restaurant. So you wanted to open that restaurant in our temple. Janārdana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? He is a very nice cooker. Janārdana: If he stays here to cook, that's a very good idea. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll stay. And I have told him already. And I have asked all the students in America chased by this draft board may come here. Yamunā: You're going to have to get a bigger building. Devotee (2): There won't be anybody left in America. Prabhupāda: No. In our connection, our students, let him come here. So these two boys, Jayapatāka and Vaikuṇṭha, in the same process receive. And therefore I was thinking that let us start press and restaurant and engage all these boys. Janārdana: Right, yeah. Prabhupāda: So you can . . . (break) . . . center. Why don't you try for that building? Janārdana: The building, the Strathcona, the government building. Prabhupāda: That is very nice, but other building in front of our temple . . . just not in exactly front. That big signboard. Janārdana: Oh, 16,000 . . . 15,000 square feet, a dollar sixty a foot? Prabhupāda: Dollar sixty? *Janārdana: Yes. We are paying forty*-nine cents a foot, and they are asking there a dollar sixty a foot. They are asking three times more rent than we are paying. It's very expensive. Prabhupāda: How many . . . there? Sixteen thousand? Janārdana: Fifteen thousand square feet. It is a fortified place, because they keep furs. They keep animal furs there, and animal furs are very expensive, and thieves very often break in. So I think that one of the reasons why it's so expensive is because it's fortified. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. What is that? Janārdana: It is a place . . . (break) . . . of animal . . . Prabhupāda: Fur, fur. Yes. Janārdana: And they are very expensive furs. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . very expensive. Janārdana: Very expensive. They want a dollar sixty a square foot per year, which is very expensive. We are paying 49 cents a square foot per year. Prabhupāda: Oh. I thought that because it is a downs floor, the restaurant can be started there. Janārdana: Oh, you mean there's another place? You mean that storefront downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Janārdana: Oh, that place . . . it's a green color, and the windows are covered with soap? The windows are painted white? Prabhupāda: No. It's a big building, big store. And big signboard. (break) . . . shall approach. (laughing) Somebody said, told, that is for sale? That was for sale? Janārdana: There is a store for sale. No. I think what they mean, the business is for sale. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . prescription, doctors never says in plain terms. Just like at the end of the prescription, "add water." This is real purpose. They will write "aqua pure ata". Nobody will understand. They will understand. This is also some of the medicine. Aqua means water. Similarly, you can say: " prasādam distribution," and they will have to consult dictionary, what it is. And you can say: "Oh, it is not restaurant; it is prasādam ." So at least . . . Janārdana: No. "Nobody is allowed to smoke in here, and they have to take off their shoes, so how can you say it's a restaurant?" Prabhupāda: Yes. These are technical. (break) . . . description, what is called restaurant that, "Wherever foodstuff is prepared and sold, that is called restaurant," then it will come to that category. Whenever they make some law, they give definition of each word, what do you mean by "restaurant." So today is another ceremony in the temple? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Huh? Janārdana: We couldn't find any barley. What can we use instead? Prabhupāda: Barley? Why? It is . . .? Janārdana: The stores are all closed today, and the boys searched everywhere. They didn't find any barley. Prabhupāda: Some grains. Any other grain. Janārdana: There is whole wheat. Prabhupāda: That will do. Janārdana: Whole wheat grains, and there's rice. Prabhupāda: Rice . . . better . . . wheat is better. Janārdana: And what else is there? There's some . . . Prabhupāda: Sesame? Janārdana: Sesame? I don't know. Is there some sesame? Mālatī: Yes, I have some, and Annapūrṇa has some. Janārdana: And there's some buckwheat. Raw buckwheat. Prabhupāda: Buckwheat? What is that? Janārdana: Raw buckwheat. It's a grain. (break) Śāradīyā: What is the significance of using the barley and the sesame? Prabhupāda: Some eatables, that's all. Grains are eatables. Therefore I am substituting. They are eatable. There must be something eatable. Lady devotee (1): Does eatable . . . does Kṛṣṇa eat out of the fire? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady devotee (1): He does? He eats all that? Prabhupāda: Everyone eats. Kṛṣṇa also . . . Kṛṣṇa eats through fire. Therefore yajṣa is offered. Kṛṣṇa eats by so many ways, but people want to see that, "I give foodstuff; it must be finished." (chuckles) So for the rudimental seers and the less intelligent class, this is . . . Janārdana: Virāṭa rūpa conception. Prabhupāda: Virāṭa rūpa , yes. That is also nice, right, that through fire He eats, yes, or through the mouth of the brāhmaṇas and devotees. Two things are there. Therefore, according to the Vedic religion, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees, are invited to take food in some ceremonies. In śraddhā ceremony they are especially invited with great honor. In pilgrimage somebody goes to Vṛndāvana, Prayāg, Mathurā. They invite the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, so that through them Kṛṣṇa is eating. They have come to satisfy Kṛṣṇa in a place of pilgrimage. So these are the systems. *So for the purpose of eating, so many brāhmaṇas have sprung up. Because brāhmaṇas are invited, so, so many so*-called brāhmaṇas are there. They'll be present when eating, and when there is chanting of Vedas they are not present there. (break) Baby has also tilaka . (chuckles) She is very happy. You see? I never seen such small child not crying. That means she is always happy. She's not crying means . . . because baby cries when there is discomfort. And with her face shows that she is very happy. (laughs) (break) Yamunā: . . . swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Just see. Thank you. (break) . . . see? Girl devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see. All very healthy, I see, because very energetic. (break) Śāradīyā: Simply by your divine grace, on Kṛṣṇa's appearance day in San Francisco my mother came to the temple, and she wore a sārī and a tilaka . Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) You are converting your mother to this cult. Yamunā: A very nice mother she has. Prabhupāda: Unless mother is good, how the children are good? Yamunā: Tora. Tora is one of the biggest, and he helped more than anybody. He would come home, and she would read to them from the *Bhāgavatam* . But he would tell her, "Oh, if you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, you must serve māyā ." And he would say: "That's māyā ." *He would tell mother that at seven years old, and he would explain to her. Swāmījī, by the end of our classes, he was actually understanding the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , being able to listen to it and ask questions about it. Prabhupāda: He gave you questions? Mālatī: Even at the temple when there would be lectures, and then the lecturer says: "Are there any questions?" Tora would raise his hand, and he'd ask very intelligent questions. Prabhupāda: Then why not keep him with me, your mother and he? (devotees cheer) *Yamunā: Oh, ho*-ho! Haribol! Prabhupāda: I think your mother will not agree to that (break). Mālatī: Maybe his mother needs him. (break) The mother needs Tora to keep her in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) Prabhupāda: He's going to be a Nārada. Nārada, when he was five years old, he was thinking that "My mother is too much attached to me." And when his mother died, he thought free. "Oh, I am now free." Janārdana: At the age of five. Prabhupāda: Yes, at the age of five. And at once he went out. In his previous life. Then from five years till the end of life he cultivated Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and next life he became Nārada. Yamunā: Oh. (break) *Prabhupāda: I think that is described in the first part of our Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . That story is there, how he convert . . . how he became Nārada. (break) Mālatī: . . . twice a month he would visit his father. His father is a demon. So Tora carries in his pocket one nice picture of Swāmījī and one nice . . . on the back is written, tava kara kamala vare . And he sits and says that under his breath because if his father heard, his father gets mad. Prabhupāda: This is the age for injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If children are taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness from this age, the face of the world will be different. (break) . . . but they are not Hindus. They have got also orphanage like that. (break) It is very important. "I thought in that way. When my mother died, as the devotees of the Lord think, I also thought in that way. What is that? 'Oh, it is a grace of the Lord. My mother is now dead.' Because she is the, I mean to say, real cause of my nonfreedom. So she is now dead. Then I am free." *It is very contradiction from the materialistic point of view. It is said that bhaktanam śam abhīpsataḥ (SB 1.6.10). "As the devotees think, so I also in that way thought." What is that? Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ : "I thought it a special grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Anugrahaṁ manyamānaḥ pratiṣṭhāṁ disam uttaram (SB 1.6.10): "And I at once took leave of my so*-called home and went away." So that is the difference between the devotees of the Lord and materialistic person. *When their materialistic relationship, comforts, are taken away, they think, "Oh, it is all grace." And the materialistic person, when their materialistic comforts are increased, they think, "It is grace." Yā niśā sarva*-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁ . . . (BG 2.69). That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Just like . . . there is a crude example—I think I have cited this example many times—that a foolish patient thinks that increase of fever is very nice. Fever, so what should be the ideal? Fever should decrease. But those who are less intelligent, they think, "Yes, it must increase." (chuckles) There is a drama in Bengali that in a house a doctor came to diagnose. There were two patients, the housewife and the maidservant. So doctor said: "The maid servant's fever is 105, so there is some anxiety. I give some medicine. And the . . . that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety." But the landlady became angry that, "This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!" (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is they are trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degree. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and . . . therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by ice bags and so many things, because to come to the fever degree, 107 or -8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree—atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists' advancement. You see? So this is the . . . so, and devotee, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brāhmaṇas , Vaiṣṇavas. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brāhmaṇa —not now; *in the Vedic system—the uṣca*-vṛtti . It is called uṣca-vṛtti . *Uṣca*-vṛtti means they will go the paddy field, and after the cultivator takes all the paddies, some paddies are thrown away. They will collect those paddies only. Just like birds, they collect. They collect those paddies, and that they will eat, not even beg, ask anybody for any morsel of food. So completely . . . *And in the Bhāgavata , Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that "Oh, this open field is your bed, this is your pillow, this is your pot, and the water in river is sufficient water, the tree is full of fruits, and in the cave, there is sufficient apartment. So why should you go, anyone, to ask for your shelter, for your food?" Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana*-durmadāndhān (SB 2.2.5): "Why should you approach the materialistic, puffed-up, monied men to give you some help?" *So Śukadeva Gosvāmī was strictly following this. Strictly following. Completely independent. That is not possible at the present day. (chuckles) If we imitate, that will be not good. We have to depose. Our Gosvāmīs, they have prescribed yukta*-vairāgya : accept everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is yukta-vairāgya . It is also vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya and yukta-vairāgya . *Śuṣka*-vairāgya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Māyāvādī sect, Śaṅkara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaiṣṇavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as kṛṣṇa-prasādam , actually: offering Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, living for Kṛṣṇa. This is the best use. *My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "The best use of a bad bargain." Everything in Kṛṣṇa relationship. That is yukta*-vairāgya. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). Vairagya means detachment. So when we are attached to Kṛṣṇa, automatically we are detached to māyā . Not artificially we want to be detached from māyā . Just like theoretically I know that I am not this body, but the bodily necessities are there because I am encaged in the body. Therefore the bodily necessities—eating, sleeping, mating, defending—should be done in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is all right. Then my consciousness is always in Kṛṣṇa, and I am detached to my bodily demands. And those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, their bodily demands is on the materialistic platform. They are going on, increasing the degree of fever and coming to the 107 degree. You are also going tomorrow? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (break) Your golden cup is very nice. Guest: Thank you. I'm glad you like it. Prabhupāda: Golden cup. (break) . . . gold plated. Guest: Yes Prabhupāda: What did it cost? *Guest: Twenty*-dollars. Prabhupāda: So I'll offer one day sweetrice to Kṛṣṇa in this pot. I have asked already Govinda dasi to make little sweet rice and offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then the pot will be used. Yes. (break) . . . India still, amongst the Hindu family, whenever they use some new thing, household, they'll offer first of all to the Deity. Every family has got Deity. Every Hindu family, especially the high class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , they must have. Nārāyaṇa-śilā . You know nārāyaṇa-śilā ? Janārdana: The stone? Prabhupāda: Śālagrāma . Janārdana: Stone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is worshiped in every family. Arcye śilā*-dhīḥ. Śilā, śilā means stone. So arcye , the worshipable . . . (referring to watch) I think this is correct. Janārdana: Yeah, it's correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Past five*-twenty. What is your time? *Guest: I have twenty*-five after. Prabhupāda: This is right? Yamunā: Yes. Well, no. It's five minutes slow. Janārdana: Think so? I don't know. My watch is ten or five minutes fast. My watch is always fast. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, this is still slow. This is correct time no? *Guru dāsa: Your watch is still drop*-proof. Prabhupāda: Because it is correct to the church bell. Yes. Church cannot be . . . (laughter) Janārdana: So the ceremony will be at six, yes? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Six*-thirty. *Janārdana: Six*-thirty. Prabhupāda: One hour after. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: So take care of your child very nicely. She is Kṛṣṇa conscious child. (laughs) Mālatī: By your grace. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Līlāvatī's child has grown very nice? Devotee woman: Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, it's so beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And what about that girl? Mālatī: Tulasī devī? Oh, very nice. Yamunā: Oh, Karṇapura is beautiful! He's the best little boy you could ever imagine. Mālatī: He's already brahmacārī . Yamunā: He's just fantastic. Upendra, Upendra really loves that kid. Upendra picks up Karṇapura, and Upendra doesn't know about children. And he'll take Karṇapura and he'll make him kiss every picture in the temple, (laughter) especially at the feet of Lord Caitanya he'll go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Karṇapura will go, "bang, bang, bang" Smile! (laughter) Really beautiful. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Very nice. So Murari, you have got to say anything? Murari: I have got to say anything? No. I was just listening. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 26, 1968, Montreal Prabhupāda: So your question, Rukmiṇī's question, Lord Caitanya's opulence . . . there are six kinds of opulences: richness, then fame, strength, influence, beauty, education and renunciation. So He exhibited all these six. He was very beautiful; therefore His name is Gaurasundara. Very beautiful—tall and stout and strong. There was no comparison of His beauty at that time, He was so beautiful, fair complexion. This time He did not appear in black complexion, because people after fair complexion. So . . . and son of a very respectable brahmin family, and very highly educated. His scholarly manifestation you'll find in the explanation of one verse: This verse was twice explained, two times explained: once before Sanātana Gosvāmī and once before Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was considered at that time to be the greatest learned man in India. At that time nyāya-śāstra , logic . . . amongst the learned scholar logic is the greatest weapon to get victory over his opponent. So learned scholar is always a very learned scholar in logic, nyāya-śāstra . So this logic was taught in Bihar, Dharvanga. India, in different parts of India, different kinds of education was imparted. In Benares, the Mayavāda philosophy was very prominent. In Dharvanga, logic was very prominent. In Navadvīpa, philosophy was very prominent, and nyāya also. Similarly, in Bharampura . . . (indistinct) . . . there are many places, just like at the present moment there are many places, university. So He was great logician, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In His boyhood He would ask His contemporary friends to argue with Him on a subject matter, and He'll defeat him. And again He'll establish it. The very point on which He defeated His friend, He'll again establish it, and again nullify it. He was so talented. His name was therefore, other name, was Nimāi Paṇḍita. *One name is Gaurasundara, another name is Nimāi Paṇḍita. Paṇḍita means very learned scholar. And that is not hearsay, that because we are devotees we are speaking of Lord Caitanya very learned scholar. The evidence is there in the explanation of ātmārāma śloka (SB 1.7.10). He has explained that śloka in sixty*-four different ways, one verse. He has described one word, ātmārāma , in eleven ways. Similarly munayo, nirgranthāḥ, urukrama, bhakti . Each word He has enunciated in so many ways. *So He showed His opulence in wisdom also, just like Kṛṣṇa showed His opulence by speaking Bhagavad*-gītā in wisdom, not only miracles. Miracles a magician can also show. That is not very important thing. A yogī also can show so many miracles. But scholarly presentation of a certain thing, that requires opulence. And the most wonderful opulence He showed that is very unique, especially in this age, that at the age of twenty-four years He renounced the world. *He had His very beautiful and obedient wife, Lakṣmī devi, sixteen years old. She was by name Lakṣmī, and actually she was goddess of fortune . . . and His mother was so affectionate, there is no comparison. So in a home where mother is . . . affectionate mother is present, and very beloved wife is present, and at the very young age . . . He was twenty*-four years old, and His wife was sixteen years old. Materially that is the age for sense gratification, but He renounced. He didn't care for His wife, didn't care for His mother. *So renunciation is also one of the opulences, and it is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam about His renunciation, tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita rājya-lakṣmīṁ (SB 11.5.34). Su-dustajya. Su-dus . . . Tyaja means give up, and du means difficult, difficult, and su means very difficult. In any word, if you apply, affix the word su , it becomes hundred times more magnified. Just like buddhi. Buddhi is intelligence, and if you affix subuddhi , that means very, very intelligent. Similarly dustyaja , "difficult to give up," and when you affix this alphabet su , it becomes "very, very, very difficult." So su-dustyaja , this word, has been used. *Tyaktvā sudustyaja*-surepsita rājya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34). Rājya-lakṣmīn means very happy home, home life, homely life. That is called rājya-lakṣmīn —one who is very happy at home. And the symptom of happiness at home, according to Vedic understanding, is the mother, wife and son. If one has got very good mother, one has got very good wife and one has got very good son, then his homely life is heaven. That is the standard of happiness. So He was young man, and although He had a wife, He knew that He would give up, that He did not begot children. So His children were His devotees. Vṛndāvana Dāsa Ṭhākura has worshiped Him, saputrāya sakala traya : "My dear Lord, I offer my obeisances unto You along with Your sons." So Vṛndāvana Dāsa Ṭhākura is offering obeisances Lord Caitanya, and specifically mentioning, "with Your sons." Where are the sons? He did not beget any children. So His sons means His devotees, His followers. Kalatra means wife. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu had all these facilities. He was learned, very honored young man in His country; He had many followings. In one incidence we can understand how beloved leader He was. The Kazi challenged His saṅkīrtana movement and first times warned Him not to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and when He did not care for it, then he ordered that, er, that mṛdaṅga should be broken. So the constables came and broke the mṛdaṅgas . This information was given to Lord Caitanya, and He ordered civil disobedience. He was the first man in the history of India who started this civil disobedience movement. It is not Gandhi who is the originator of civil disobedience; it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said that "Defy the order of the Kazi." Kazi means magistrate. So "This evening we shall go at the Kazi's house in hundreds of thousands, with mṛdaṅga and kīrtana ." So simply by His order many hundreds of thousands young men—not young men; young, old, all kinds of men—gathered, and . . . so . . . the point is just how popular leader He was. Even in His young age, when He was only twenty years old, how popular He was. So . . . and because He was a learned brahmin , people would send Him many presentation. A brahmin is not expected to work. That is dhana pratigraha . Pratigraha means accept offerings from others. Just like you offered so many things to me—money, clothing, food—so a sannyāsī , a brahmin , can accept. Not others. A gṛhastha cannot. There are restriction. A brahmacārī can, but he can accept on behalf of his spiritual master, not personally. These are the rules. So He was learned brahmin , and people used to present Him profusely, so He had no economics problem. Not that He renounced the world on account of poverty or some strain. He had no poverty; He was opulent. A brahmin does not require any great amount of wealth just to pull on his family. So that much amount was more than that He was receiving. He was teacher also. Paṭhana, pāṭhana, yajana, yājana. Brahmin's business is to teach and to become a very learned scholar and teach people how to worship Kṛṣṇa and become devotee himself, and accept charities from others and distribute it again. So He had all these opulences without any difficulty, and His family life—mother, wife . . . Caṇākya Paṇḍita says: *Cāṇakya Paṇḍita is giving too much stress on mother and wife in family life. So he says if one's mother is dead and if his wife is not very . . . apriya*-vādinī , and does not behave very well, ill-behaving, so Caṇākya Paṇḍita advises him that aranyaṁ tena gantavyam : such person should immediately go to the forest. Because in the Vedic understanding there is no divorce. If the wife is not very pleasing, there is no question of divorcing. *Cāṇakya Paṇḍita does not advise it, the advice that he should divorce such wife, but he says, aranyaṁ tena gantavyam : he should give up family life and go to the forest. Divorce was completely unknown, even up to, say, five years ago. Now this Nehru government has enacted Divorce Act in Hindu law, but actually, Hindu law*-maker, they have no such thing as divorce. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this is one of the brilliant examples of opulence, that He renounced His so happy family life, not disturbing life, and very . . . at a very young age, when everyone is after enjoying family life. So is it not a great opulence? Very great opulence. Young man, having good mother, good wife, good home, good reputation, good following, good parentage, beauty—everything—but He renounced. That is the greatest opulence. He renounced everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is the greatest opulence of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Similarly, if we can follow His footprints . . . not that we have to give up everything, but give up everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is very nice. (pause) So any other particular . . .? (pause) Yes. Devotee: His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī accepted both Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaurakiśora as his spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Gaurakiśora dasa . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was his father, and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . although he was householder and Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī was renounced order, still, he used to offer great respect to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura saw him a pure devotee; therefore he recommended his son, Bimala Prasāda. His former name was Bimala Prasāda, and he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī by writing one thesis on astronomy, astrology, astrological calculation according to solar system. So he got this title Siddhānta Sarasvatī. So this Siddhānta Sarasvatī, Sarasvatī title also accepted by sannyāsa . Sarasvatī, Bhāratī, Puri, Araṇya, Bon, Parvat—there are ten names of sannyāsa according to Māyāvādī school, and according to Vaiṣṇava school there are 108 names. So this " svāmī " and " gosvāmī ," they're also included within that 108 names. So he accepted Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī Maharaja his spiritual master. Yes? Devotee (2): Does our line of succession go directly to Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī or to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: No. Because he was treating Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura as his śikṣa guru, preceptor guru, so it is in the line. Devotee (2): But is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura directly in succession from Lord Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): And Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī also? Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. Nayanābhirāma: Could you tell us about something about Lord Caitanya's production of Vaiṣṇava drama? Are there any of the plays that you know are still extant? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was playing Vaiṣṇava drama in His household life, rather in student life, and He was taking the part of Rukmiṇī, because He was very beautiful young boy. Formerly, in our childhood also, we saw in drama there was no females taking part. If there was a female part, the man would be dressed just like a female. Formerly, females are not allowed. If one has to find out a female for taking part in drama, then he has to find out from other quarters, not in respectable part. Now very, very respectable, educated girls are taking in drama and cinema in India. Formerly this was not possible. And perhaps in the theatrical performances, stage, that was introduced by Lord Caitanya, drama. But His dramatical performances were limited within the devotees. He will not allow to take part in the performance who is not a devotee. So if our devotees . . . that movie was very nice. That's a good example. If we play . . . train our devotees to present some dramatical performances or movie, I think it will be very successful, because they will play from transcendental sentiment, not for trade purpose. So that will come out very successful. Yes. *In our childhood we had the occasion of taking part in a drama, Caitanya*-līlā. I took the part of Advaita, and our friends, others, somebody took the part of Caitanya, Nityānanda. So that drama was so successful, it was unique in Calcutta. Because we were not . . . we were not professionals. I saw from the stage a huge gathering, they're all crying. (laughs) I was surprised, "Why these people are crying?" You see? It was great successful, because we were not professionals. We were not devotees at that time, but some of us were devotee by family tradition, but not exactly what is actually meant by devotee. But still, because we were not professionals, the drama was so successful, unique. And there was no female. Now Śacidevī, Śacidevī, the friend who take the part, took the part of Śacidevī, his shoulders were so big, (laughing) so just see. So there was no question of beautiful woman taking part. So still, the drama was very successful. Similarly, when Caitanya Mahāprabhu staged, all the devotees took part: Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura, Advaita, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda and Mukunda and other, all devotees. (pause) Yes? Devotee (3): It's said that Nārada Muni delivered the chant to the earth. How was it . . . was it there before he came? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): Nārada Muni delivered the chanting, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , to the earth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Was it here before he came? And what . . . how long ago did he come? Prabhupāda: That you cannot calculate. Nārada Muni is one of the sons of Brahmā, so he's present since the time of creation. And many great sages and saintly devotees are all devotees of Nārada Muni. Prahlāda Mahārāja is disciple of Nārada Muni, Dhruva Mahārāja is the disciple of Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva is disciple of Nārada Muni, Vālmīki is disciple of Nārada Muni. So Nārada Muni was very expert in getting disciples. He had so many disciples. Unlimited. Devotee (4): Swāmījī, what's the meaning of "Ṭhākura"? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura actually means God. So one who is godly, he is also addressed as Ṭhākura. Yes? Girl devotee: When we're dreaming, when we're asleep, are we in māyā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl devotee: Even when we dream about . . . Prabhupāda: So long you sleep, you waste your time. Girl devotee: Swāmī, even when we dream about Godbrothers and Godsisters? Prabhupāda: Huh? Girl devotee: Even when we dream about Godbrothers and Godsisters? Prabhupāda: No. That is not māyā . I mean to say, dreaming . . . yes. Sleeping means stopping your active life. So that is a waste of time. We should rather . . . the mind is always active, and dreaming means the mind is acting. So dreaming is not always bad. Dreaming sometimes very good. What I mean, sleeping is not very good. Hmm. (long pause) Prabhupāda: Dāmodara, what is the price of these films? Dāmodara: Price of the films? Prabhupāda: Suppose if we take film, very long film, what will be the cost? *Dāmodara: Well, in an eight*-millimeter, the size film that you saw last night, the other night, it's not very expensive. It costs a little more than a dollar a minute for, you know. So if there was an hour and a half film, it might cost $150. Not much. But to make a film of the quality that's seen in the theater, it's very expensive. An hour and a half film, it's not unusual, a hundred thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: Oh! (laughing) Dāmodara: That's quite a bit of difference. You see, when you have sound on a film it makes it very expensive. And the proper lighting. It takes a long time to make a film that has the right quality. It's expensive. Prabhupāda: So why don't you get a financier? We can give so many ideas of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and we have got our players. Dāmodara: Brahmānanda mentioned that I should write to some foundations, groups . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dāmodara: . . . and I'll do so. There are a couple I've thought of. Making films on Vedic scriptures—they'll be interested in that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) Yes. *Devotee (5): Somebody said you want to film the Bhagavad*-gītā , Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you can take up, I can direct you. Devotee (6): In Sanskrit or in English? Prabhupāda: English. Yes. Devotee (5): Okay, Swāmījī. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But it will be very expensive to arrange for the war field. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21-22). We require so many elephants, so many chariots. That panoramic manifestation of war field, it will be very expensive. Where are the elephants? They don't find here elephants. Devotee (7): Oh, you can rent elephants. Prabhupāda: Uh? Devotee (7): You can rent elephants. Prabhupāda: You can rent, but how many you can rent? Devotee (7): Well, how many do we need? (laughter) Prabhupāda: You know, there is . . . there was eighteen akṣauhiṇī senā , eighteen groups of akṣauhiṇī . One akṣauhiṇī , so many hundred thousands of soldiers, so many hundred thousands of chariots, so many hundred thousands of elephant, horses. That is one group. Such eighteen groups were present there. At least, to make a successful scene we require at least fifty elephants to make a show. And chariots. Then it will be something sceneric. *Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, has not been attempted by any cinema company for this reason. It is very difficult to make arrangement for the war scene. This is not modern war. There are many modern war films. You can present that. But it is different kind of war. So if you want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then these things will be required. Devotee (8): Are there elephants available in India, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Elephants, there are many in India. Elephants, camels, horses also. Still there are many. Devotee (9): Could we film on location, on the battlefield? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The battlefield is still existing, Kurukṣetra. Yes. It is about hundred . . . about within two hundred miles from Delhi. It is not far off. (pause) That my red tape recorder is not replaced. Is it very costly now? Devotee (10): I think so. Yeah. About five hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Five hundred dollars, that may be Japanese. The original is English. Devotee (10): Oh, English? I thought it was German. English? Prabhupāda: Yes. German or English. That is eight hundred dollars. It was very nice. Yes. I therefore used to keep daily in my compartment. I didn't allow to leave it here. How you are feeling, Jadurāṇī? All right? So I think we shall chant little Hare Kṛṣṇa and close this meeting. (break) (end) Kirtan and Conversation -- September 4, 1968, New York *Prabhupāda: ( kīrtana ) ( prema*-dhvani ) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances) This golden frame is very costly? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: So why not frame all the pictures? Devotee: They were supposed to buy some but then somebody agreed to make them for a decent price, but he hasn't made them. I will mention it Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult to make? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Anyone who knows carpentry work he can do that . . . It is to be cut in corners and then with some nails, that's all. This frame is very nice . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) (end) Kirtan and Conversation Excerpt- Seattle -- September 29, 1968 *Prabhupāda: ( kīrtana ) ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. (obeisances) You have sold 120 copies? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you have to sell 120 copies at least daily. (chuckles) Thank you. (end) Interview -- December 17, 1968, Los Angeles Reporter: I think the first question is kind of basic, is why is everything always taped at all the . . . Prabhupāda: Because we have got so many branches, they want to hear me, my singing, my speech, therefore they record it and send it to different branches. We have got thirteen, fourteen branches—one in New York, one in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, Vancouver, London, Hamburg. We have got so many branches. Reporter: What are the basic beliefs of the Kṛṣṇa religion? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. God, this word, does not explain the nomenclature of God. Now this Kṛṣṇa is Sanskrit word, and it conveys the full meaning of God. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive means He is full of all opulences. In this world we are attracted by one who is very rich, we are attracted by one who is very famous, we are attracted by one who is very highly educated, we are attracted by someone who is very beautiful. Similarly, these are features of attraction. And when all these attractions are reposed in one place without any rivalry, He is God. That is the conception of God. So Kṛṣṇa means all these six opulences in fullness together. That is the full definition of God. *Reporter: What effect to the followers does chanting give? I heard from one that it transports them to a utopian*-type situation. I wondered if you could elaborate on that a little more. Prabhupāda: Which situation? *Reporter: Utopian*-like, where there is no harm, no . . . all is good, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, this our process is chanting. It is very innocent. If you sit down and chant with us, you have no loss, no harm, but there is great gain. You see? By chanting, you gradually cleanse your heart and you can realize what is God. That is the greatest gain. Human life is meant for knowing God. The animals, they cannot know, although the bodily demands of the animal and the human being are the same. The animals, they sleep—man also sleeps. Animal, they eat—man also eats. The animal, they are also afraid of some enemy—man is also afraid of some enemy. The animals, they mate with the opposite sex, and men also do that. But what is the special significance of man? He can understand about God, but the animal cannot. Therefore if a man does not take to this understanding, he is no better than animal. A man who has no God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is no better than animal, because he has no other business than the four principles of bodily demands. So that is also prevalent in animal kingdom. Therefore this is a privilege for human being, to understand about God, and as such, in every human society there is some sort of religious principle. This religious principle means to understand God. Either you take it Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism, every religion is trying to understand God according to their capacity. So without this understanding, means Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a human life is as good as animal life. Reporter: Do you believe that other religions have some truth to them, because they all are . . . Prabhupāda: I have already told that religion means searching after God, every religion. The process may be different. The audience may be different. Just like in Christianity there is conception of God, "God created this world." So this is a fact. We also say. But we say in very lucid explanation from the *Vedas* . We don't stop, simply saying: "God created," but how created, how things developed, these descriptions are there in the Vedic literature. That is the difference. Otherwise there is no difference of opinion. The Christian accept God created this world; the Jewish religion, they also accept God created this world; the Muslims, they also accept God created this world—we also accept God created this world. So "God is the supreme, God is great" . . . that is accepted by everyone. But the only difference is that we give details so that modern mind, who are advanced in education and scientific knowledge, they can understand, whereas others, they cannot give in detail. Therefore they are deviating gradually, because the modern, advanced, educated person, they want to know how God created this world, and that description is lacking. But we can give that. That is the difference. Otherwise the primary principle, to understand God—God is great; we are small, tiny; we are subordinate; we are maintained by God—this idea is everywhere. Reporter: Yes, well, what is your explanation of the creation of the world? *Prabhupāda: Oh, that is a huge thing. That we have to see to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that God expanded Himself first of all in Mahā-Viṣṇu. He lied down on the Causal Ocean. And while He was in sleeping mood, from His breathing, innumerable universes came into existence. Then each and every universe, Mahā-Viṣṇu entered. Then again He lied down there, and from Him the first creature, Brahmā, generated. Then Brahmā created other planets. *First there was creation of sound. From the sound, the sky came into existence. From the sky, air came into existence. From air, fire came into existence. From fire, water came into existence, and from water, this land developed. In this way, there are very detailed description in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So we have to take it that way. Reporter: Were you born in this country, or were you born in . . . Prabhupāda: No. I was born in India, Calcutta. My birthplace is Calcutta. Reporter: When did you come to this country? Prabhupāda: I came here in September, 1965. Reporter: Did you come with the purpose of spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I am an ordained minister for preaching this missionary activities. So I came here in September, 1965. Then, for one year, I was traveling in many parts of your country. In the beginning I was in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, and then I went to Philadelphia. Then I came to New York. And in this way I was traveling; not very much. And in 1966, in July 1st, I started my class in New York at 26 Second Avenue. That is my first starting. Then the younger generation began to come to me, and they started the San Francisco branch, Montreal branch. In this way the institution is going. And we have sent our students to Europe also. They have already started one branch in London, one in Hamburg. And we have sent our students in Honolulu. They have started a branch there. So our program is to start several . . . as many branches as possible to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And it is very easy. We simply invite persons to come and chant with us. It doesn't matter what he is, what is his language, what is his religion. We don't take into account all these things. And this Hare Kṛṣṇa is so easy to utter that any man can utter. That we have experienced. Any part of the world we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they can very easily imitate and chant. Even child, they also. *So by chanting, he gradually becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. His heart becomes cleansed and he can understand what is science of Kṛṣṇa, what is science of God. Then he automatically offers himself for initiation. Then we initiate him and guide him in different ways. But our students are strictly forbidden to have illicit sex life or meat*-eating or intoxication or gambling. These four things are strictly forbidden for our students. And they take it seriously. We get our . . . in your country boys and girls, they live as friend. I don't allow that. If there is such friendship, I immediately ask them, if they become my student, I immediately ask them to be married. And this experiment has proved very successful. I got these young boys and girls married, and they are very happily living, and husband and wife, they are preaching. All my students in London—there are six boys and girls—they were married by me, and they are very doing nice . . . doing very nicely. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice in everywhere, especially in this country. That is my opinion. And people will be benefited, especially the younger section who were feeling frustration in every respect, and they are now happy. It is practical. Just ask any one of my students how they are happy. You have seen in our temple how happily they are living and dancing from their face. Face is the index of mind. You will understand from their face how happy they are feeling. They are not smoking. They are not taking marijuana or are taking . . . no. This nonsense we don't allow. Simple food and chanting. That makes them happy. Simple thing. Reporter: (aside) Just a minute. I'll change the speed on this. Should work a bit better. I notice that most of your followers, at least in this temple, are young, like in the college age or in the teen age. Is it because Kṛṣṇa doesn't attract the older generation—I mean, yourself excluded? (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa attracts everyone . . . just like magnetic stone attracts iron. But the iron is covered with too much muddy things e magnetic force does not work. This younger generation, they are not too much dirty; therefore they are very easily attracted. You see? It is like a magnetic force. The same example, that magnetic force attracts iron. That is natural. But if the iron is too much rusty and covered with muddy things, then it does not act. So older generation means they are convinced in some way. They cannot accept any new thing. You see? They are in their last stage of life. Whatever they have understood, they cannot forget. But younger generation, they have got capacity to take new things. Just like nobody goes . . . no old man goes to school, because they are unable to receive education. But younger generation, they go. There is a age to receive. So this age is recipient. Therefore naturally, it is nice thing, they are receiving. Reporter: You spoke of initiation. What is that initiation? Prabhupāda: Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasādam , hear philosophy. And if he understands, "Oh, this is very nice," then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction, that "If you want to be initiated . . ." *We get hundreds of letters by everyone who has attended our classes. Daily we are getting some married couples or boys and girls, but most of them are younger. My students are within thirties. The oldest student I have got at the present moment, he is twenty*-eight years. No, Kīrtanānanda is about thirty years old. That's all. So, of course, I do not get any older people. But that is nice, hopeful, because younger section, if they take it very seriously, then I have hopes that they will preach in future, even in my absence. And old people . . . if a man becomes too much accustomed to a certain limited habits, in old age it is very difficult to give it up unless one is extraordinarily intelligent. Reporter: What is the purpose of the robes and shaving . . . having your head shaved? Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not very difficult to understand. Just like you dress in a certain way, I dress in certain way. So we have got this dressing system in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and this is taken from Vedic literature. A brahmacārī should dress like that. And that is very economical. Our dress is saffron dress. It does not become dirty very quickly, and we . . . (break) This dress is not very important thing, but when one is initiated, he accepts the regulation which I give them. So it is not that if you do not come in that dress in our temple you will not understand our philosophy. That is not . . . we don't mean that. But it is convenient. But anyone who does not want to change this dress, that does not matter. We don't insist. These brahmacārīs , they voluntarily change. Otherwise, there are many students, just like we have got two, three students, they are working. They come just like ordinary American gentlemen. So there is no objection in that way. Dress is not very important thing. Reporter: Do you have a name that you call . . . are they called students? Like, would he be called a student or a . . .? Devotee: Brahmacārī . Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs . And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas . And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas . And those who are renounced—they have no connection with anything worldly—they are called sannyāsa . Just like I am sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone. Reporter: Could I ask for a spelling on those? *Prabhupāda: Sannyā . . . yes, brahmacārī : b*-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī . Then gṛhastha : g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha . H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha . G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha . Then vānaprastha : v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha . Then sannyāsī : s-(a)-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī . Four divisions. These four divisions. And there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. *Just like the brāhmaṇas , b*-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas . Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas , k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas . Similarly, there is the vaiśyas , v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class: those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras . Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas . And the worker class is called śūdra . So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society. Reporter: Have they encountered any problems in . . . like out on the Hollywood Boulevard? Police action, or telling them to move or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only that depends on the whims of the police. Sometimes they say: "You are blocking our roads." Sometimes, "Oh, you are doing nice." So that depends on their temperament. Reporter: How about from the crowds? Prabhupāda: Crowd, of course, whenever there is crowd, it is natural—police do not like it. So we don't create crowd. But generally, people, out of inquisitiveness they gather together and see how they are chanting. They are sympathetic. They contribute. They purchase our books and literature. The people, public is sympathetic. The police are also sympathetic. They don't object when we go at night, but during busy hours, they object. So one of our student was arrested by the police. So he was taken to the court, and I gave them $315 for . . . what is called? Bail. But he was not convicted. He was immediately liberated, and now our money was returned. So it is not a problem. Reporter: Were there any followers before you came to this country? *Prabhupāda: No. In this country, of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there was none. It is the first time. I have introduced. But in India it is very, very old—since the advent of Kṛṣṇa, and at least since last five thousand years. So Kṛṣṇa is very popular in India. In every home, Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, and there are many millions of temples of Kṛṣṇa in India and followers also. Followers means almost all Hindus are followers of Kṛṣṇa. They read this Bhagavad*-gītā . *So I have recently published Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . It is published by Macmillan Company, and this book is very nicely being received. It is being reviewed by several papers. I have got many others books. They are being gradually introduced. Perhaps you have seen in our counter. We have got books, magazines, calendar and other literatures. So it is a very scientific movement. It is not a sentiment, bogus hoax. It is . . . anyone who wants to understand this movement philosophically, scientifically, they will be very much satisfied in this. The idea is that any religious movement without philosophical basis, it is simply sentiment or fanaticism. And philosophy without idea of God is simply mental speculation. Therefore religious principles combined with philosophy, that is perfect. So the younger section become attracted to this movement because we are giving some religious principle based on philosophy. Reporter: About how many followers would you say there are in the United States? Prabhupāda: Initiated members, there are about one hundred, or little more, but sympathizers, admirers, there are many. Those who come, those who contribute, take sympathy, they help, and in that way there are many followers. But actually initiated members, there are about a little more than one hundred. Reporter: Yes, what is the significance of . . . right after the chanting, everyone bows, and that I don't understand, what they're doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is offering respect. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to ask people to surrender to God. They have rebelled against God. Somebody says: "There is no God." Somebody says that, "I am God." These nonsense things are to be eradicated from human society. So they should be trained to submit. So the submission is symbolized by bowing down, "Yes, You are great; I am humble." This should be taught. Otherwise, their, whimsically, their think somebody thinking that, "I am God." They do not know what is God. It is most foolish proposal if somebody claims that he is God. He is dog. We very much hate this proposal, when a man claims that he is God. It is most blasphemous. Reporter: Have you . . . did you . . . well, you've only been over here about four years. But have there been dropouts, out of the movement, out of the hundred that were initiated? Prabhupāda: They are doing nicely. They are making progress. They are understanding the philosophy. They are working for it. Now I am the only man who came from India, and still I am one. I have no . . . there are many Indians, but I have no Indian follower here. Of course, in India we have got. That's a different thing. But these, all these American boys, they are cooperating with me. That means they are taking this movement very seriously. We have got two great papers, magazines, already, Back to Godhead. One is published from New York, and the other is published from Montreal. (break) . . . in French language. Montreal, it is published in French language, and they are well received. Recently I have received one letter from my disciple Janardana. He is Janis Dambergs, M.A.; he is the editor of that paper. He is a very good scholar in French language. His wife is also good scholar, Muna. *She is also very good scholar in French language. So they are publishing, and the magazine is well received by the French*-speaking people there. And we have contemplation to publish the same magazine in German language also, from Germany. Reporter: I was talking to one the other day, and he said his name was Tamul *Prabhupāda: Tamāla, yes. Tamāla*-kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Tamāla? And he was from Manhattan. Now, I assume when you join, do you assume a name? Do you change your name? Prabhupāda: Yes, when one is initiated, I give him a name which means remembrance of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Is it necessary to know of the Indian language when you join? Because I noticed that when your . . . Prabhupāda: This is not Indian name. This is Sanskrit name. Reporter: It's what? *Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit is a language which is mother of all languages. Sanskrit, S*-a-n-s-k-r-i-t, Sanskrit language. So this is the original language of this . . . not only of this planet; in other planets also, this language is spoken. So the names are in Sanskrit. They do not belong to any community or any section. It is universal. We have no information. *Just like this word Kṛṣṇa. It is universally known: "all*-attractive." The exact English translation is "all-attractive." So there cannot be any proper nomenclature for God than this "all-attractive." Unless God is all-attractive, how He can be God? This is the perfect nomenclature. Similarly, anything Sanskritically named, that is all-perfect. Yes. Reporter: I think that's all the questions I had. I can't think of any more. Let me think. Erm . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- April 24, 1969, Boston Prabhupāda: . . . tree? Haṁsadūta: Puruṣottama. Prabhupāda: How many rose trees Jayānanda has? Puruṣottama: 108. Prabhupāda: 108. So at least 108 flowers we'll have daily. Yes. So it is very nice. Our Hawaii, place is also very nice. Devotee: Hawaii. They have a new place? Prabhupāda: Yes, the place where now Govinda dāsī is staying, a very nice place, just on the seaside. And the house is two stories, entire house among the fig trees. There is nice arrangement. So you had any correspondence with her? Jadurāṇī: A little. Prabhupāda: So what does she say? *Jadurāṇī: She said the flowers weren't out yet, but that was months ago. We have some mail for you. One letter is from her with up*-to-date news. Prabhupāda: Oh. Some devotees are coming. And in Honolulu, two boys, they are also doing. In Hawaii there are two branches now. Yes. One at Honolulu, one at Kauai. Kauai. That island's name is Oahu. Hawaii has five islands' stretch, and this is called Oahu. Oahu island, one side, Honolulu, and one side . . . this island means hill. And the valley of the hills are utilized for residential purpose. So all sides, Pacific Ocean. And there is ample production of sugar cane and pineapple. I was chewing sugar cane as it is. (laughter) Yes. And there is so many coconut trees, palm trees, and mango. In mango season they throw away mangoes. So I have asked Govinda dāsī that, "You make mango pulp and dry it and send it." So they are doing nice, husband and wife, Gaurasundara. Yes. Trying their best. I do not know whether they are working now. Himāvatī: Govinda dāsī is working. Prabhupāda: Working. She can work. She can earn $400 at least. Devotee: Typing? Prabhupāda: Yes. She is good typist. Devotee: We have one boy in Montreal, he says that he wants to go to Florida the first of May. His father is a real estate man. So he wants to get a job and then get a temple, and he wants someone to come there. He said me preferably. Prabhupāda: All right. This South, North Carolina, they are also doing . . . (laughs) Devotee: He wants to go to Palm Beach. Palm Beach is the richest place in the country. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be all right. And Boston . . . Buffalo is also doing nice. Oh, yes. The students are educated circle. They are taking interest, both the boys and girls. And three meetings I attended. Every meeting was full, two hundred boys and girls. *They were dancing, chanting, asking very intelligent question. And Rūpānuga is holding class. There will be some examination of the students. They accept papers. Yes. Some Indians are coming from long distance. One Indian gentleman, he came to see me from . . . what is that place? Ninety*-two miles away from Buffalo. Himāvatī: Did you see Nauvanī? Nauvanī? Prabhupāda: Nauvanī is there. Yes. He is there still. He is also very good. He works very nice in the temple. Devotee: Every day. Prabhupāda: He's a very good man. Everyone who will come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will become good man, even he's a bad man. (laughs) That is the influence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair gunaiḥ tatra samāsate suraḥ ( SB 5.18.12). All godly qualities will develop in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the test. Now, our students, nobody can compare with their behavior, with their character, with their innocence. Everything nicest. So don't worry. Simply go on chanting. Everything will be all right. Don't worry. Jadurāṇī: Sometimes I get concerned about temple affairs. Prabhupāda: You . . . that's all right. For the time being you don't touch. You chant, and everything will be . . . soon you will be in good health. Then you will again work. Yes. Śāradīyā, you are painting? No. All right, you finish your school. You are going to school? Śāradīyā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. You are painting? That's nice. You? That's nice. Practice painting nicely. We'll require so many pictures. We shall publish so many pictures, book. (to another devotee) You are not painting. You have no time to paint. You have got enough engagement. So you can . . . so long you are here, you just show how to Deity worship, how you are doing that, and they will learn. Yes. She is doing that very nice. Yes. So you can, all of you, all girls, you take, how she is doing. Who is doing here temple worship? Haṁsadūta: Are you going to give some more instruction? Prabhupāda: No. This is . . . in this age temple worship is not recommended. Haṁsadūta: It's not recommended. But Deity worship is temple worship? *Prabhupāda: It is Deity worship. Because nobody can actually very nicely perform. This age is not suitable. You see? Temple worship, the regulation, the engagement—at least four, five men must always be engaged, always, twenty*-four hours. Haṁsadūta: In the temple worship. In the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. We haven't got sufficient men, neither we can arrange such a way. Besides that, your previous culture, everything is completely different. So in this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu has . . . this saṅkīrtana , Hare Kṛṣṇa, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). This is all round. But at the same time, if you can perform as far as possible, that's nice, Deity worship. In this age Deity worship is secondary. Saṅkīrtana is primary. Haṁsadūta: Does it matter who performs the Deity worship? Does it matter? I mean is it some particular person? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is called arcana*-siddhi . Haṁsadūta: Who should do it? I mean, in the temple who should do it? Prabhupāda: No, everyone should do it. Haṁsadūta: Everyone should take part. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should learn. Everyone should learn. Sometimes somebody is doing something, somebody is doing something. Yes, like that. Everyone should be expert in every respect, twenty*-six qualification. (car sound outside) You have got car here? No. Nobody has got car amongst our disciples? Jadurāṇī: No. Himavatī: Do you need a car, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: No, because the temple is here, just in front. So what is the use of car? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, I found a place very likely for a new temple. And I've gone so far as . . . the lawyer even drew up a lease. So maybe tomorrow you could look at it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. What is the description? Satsvarūpa: Very excellent location, right downtown. The things wrong with it is that the temple area is no bigger than the temple area we have now, but the location is just the greatest. Second floor. Still, right downtown. Prabhupāda: Second floor. So what is the rent? *Satsvarūpa: Three hundred a month. But we can do it as long as . . . presently, Patita*-pāvana is working and so am I, and sometimes the gopīs get some money. So we wouldn't have any problem as long as Patita-pāvana would continue to work. Prabhupāda: All right, Kṛṣṇa will solve the problems. But the space is not lesser than this temple? Satsvarūpa: Well, the temple room is maybe even smaller than the present temple room, but then there's another large, very large room for a kitchen, and then another space for where bunks could be for sleeping. So there's actually three different spaces. The thing is that the main temple hall is not too large. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That doesn't matter. You have to take saṅkīrtana party. That should be the main business. And the . . . at least sixteen men, four mṛdaṅgas . Practice mṛdaṅga like that. And twelve cymbals, and one chanting and all other responding. Oh, it will be tremendous. Take some flags, "ISKCON", “Hare Kṛṣṇa" flag, red flag. You see? And conchshell, mṛdaṅga . In New York they are doing now, and they also one day collected 240 dollars or something like that. What is that? *Puruṣottama: Two hundred and forty*-seven. *Prabhupāda: Two hundred and forty*-seven. You see? (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: I'll try in Montreal. We have new devotees now, lot of new boys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, you will get devotees. You just begin saṅkīrtana party, you will get many devotees. You see? In Los Angeles, daily the devotees, new devotees, are coming, and very nice boys. We are now searching after a bigger place. Yes. That temple is not sufficient, although that is the biggest center of all our centers. It has got compound. *It has got parking place. It has got two big halls, one big room, one big kitchen, and three, four, five small rooms. It is a nice situation, you see, just suitable for our purpose. And they decorate Jagannātha very nicely. Yes. So increase centers. And what is the name of the boy who went to . . . Nanda*-kiśora. He wants to open Toronto? Haṁsadūta: In Toronto. Toronto is a very good place to go. Prabhupāda: So let him open. Haṁsadūta: Let him go? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Okay. But not alone. He needs someone else, I think. He needs one more boy. I don't think by himself he can do it. Prabhupāda: That we shall arrange, somebody to go. Yes. Haṁsadūta: Maybe you remember Mr. Saini in Montreal? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Haṁsadūta: Well, he approached me just recently. He wants to open a store, Indian store and goods, and he wants the boys in the temple to work there. He wants to make some arrangement so the temple will get some money. Prabhupāda: He is very cunning man. Haṁsadūta: Yes, I know. I don't trust him at all. So maybe I shouldn't . . . Prabhupāda: He wants to utilize our men. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Don't deal with him, right? That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: He wants a cheap, cheap price. (break) I don't believe all these things they have . . . they have come here to beg, to make money. You see? Their mentality cannot be good. Haṁsadūta: I have another plea from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is a good boy. Haṁsadūta: Oh, he's very nice. Oh, he's getting so nice. He wants to come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because he is serving. Himavatī: He lives in our house now. Haṁsadūta: He lives with us now. You know we have another house, the whole house, and almost everyone now is a devotee there. And they're eating prasādam . He lives there. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is very nice boy. You give him good protection, and he will turn very good help. Sevonmukhe . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness can be, I mean to say, appreciated only by service. There is no other . . . no other way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Brs. 1.2.234). You cannot catch Kṛṣṇa by any way — by your riches, by your beauty, by your . . . because He excels everything. How you can make Him under your control? You can simply make Him under your control by service, like the gopīs did. Yes. What is this? Prasāda ? Oh, I think I cannot take any. All right, I shall take some. Satsvarūpa: The devotees have prasādam over at the temple that's ready. Prabhupāda: Oh, they can take. They can go. (end) Conversation -- September 8, 1969, Hamburg Prabhupāda: . . . vedic civilization, unless one is inquisitive for the solution of the problems, he is not on the human being standard. Because there are so many problems. The animals cannot inquire, but a man can inquire. So unless one comes to this point, to inquire how these problems can be solved, he's not developed to human consciousness. He's still in animal consciousness. Actually, the problem is that . . . what is this human civilization, advanced civilization? They are trying to solve problems. One problem is presented, and they try to solve it. Just like at the present moment they have manufacture atomic bomb, and all the nations are anxious to keep peace, and they have started that United Nation organization to solve the problems. Although they are unable, but they are trying. So advancement of civilization means by nature some problem is offered, and they are trying to solve it. Anything you take, it is an attempt for trying to solve the problem. Just like in your country there is subway. What is that subway? Because on the surface there is enormous traffic, to solve this problem they want to go underground. And in this way somebody thinks, "Oh, Western countries are advanced than the Eastern countries. They have made some solution." But after that, there is another problem. So problem after problem. *So what is the ultimate problem? The ultimate problem is we do not want to suffer. That's all. We want comfortable, peaceful life. This is the ultimate problem. Is it not? Just think over. That is . . . in Sanskrit language it is called ātyantika*-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ . Ātyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ , to solve the problems of miseries. *We don't want any kind of misery. We don't want to suffer. We want very peaceful and joyful life. That is . . . but that is not being possible within this material world. That is the problem. The living entity is, by nature, he wants joyful life . . . ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Abhyāsāt . Abhyāsāt means by natural tendency he wants joyful life. But . . . there is a song, Bengali song. A poet writes, sukhera lāgiyā ei ghara bandhila anale puriya gelā : "I constructed my home to live very peacefully and comfortably. All of a sudden, there was set fire, and everything vanquished." Just like in America you have got experience that Mr. Kennedy, he became president after long struggle. He had very nice wife, children, honor, prestige, everything. And somebody was saying, telling me yesterday, that people took him as very happy man. Within a second, all finished. He was driving, he was in procession, people were honoring him, and within a second—finished. So everyone is trying to be very happy, comfortable, but it is being finished within a second. Is it not a fact? Huh? Is there any disagreement on this point? That is the problem. Everyone is trying to solve this problem in his own way. They are manufacturing different ways only, but the problem is not solved. The problem is there. *Here (there) in America, whenever I meet some gentleman in the street and he understands that I am coming from India, he says: "Oh, India is very poverty*-stricken." You see? So . . . as if there is no problem in America. There is one problem: food scarcity. But I tell him that "You have got also many problems. You are not problem-free." So there is . . . suppose you have got some pain here. Sometimes we think that, "If pain would have been here, then it would have been nice. Here it is very painful." So pain, here or there, it is pain. You see? So either you have got problem of food grains or problem of hippies, but the problem is there. A different feature only. Therefore one should be very much careful to know how to solve the problem. Actually, we are trying. We are trying to advance in education, in scientific knowledge. In so many things we are trying. The material nature is offering problems after problems. That is the nature's business. You solve one problem, and she'll present another problem. First of all, one . . . somebody thought, "If there is aeroplane, then it will be very nice to travel in the space." But now the problem is that by aeroplane, if there is enmity, another country can face my country without any fight. So another problem. (laughs) Now they have to go underground. I was reading in the World Almanac that next hundred years people will live underground. You have read that? That World Almanac ? Śivānanda: This is taking place in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śivānanda: This is taking place in Montreal. Prabhupāda: Just see. They will come on the surface just to breathe little freely. Otherwise, they will have to live within underground. So another problem is coming. (chuckles) Intelligent persons should think of how this ultimate problem can be solved. *So what will be the answer? How ultimate problem can be solved? The problem is there, you agree, everyone? Or you have disagreement, there is no problem. You think there is no problem? Eh? Problem there is, you think? So how to solve it? They have tried their utmost. It is not solved. Then what is the solution? That solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the Seventh Chapter. Where is Bhagavad-gītā ? Is there? No Bhagavad-gītā here? Devotee (1): I have one in my case. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give me my spectacle. Behind that, there is small book. Just up. Yes. Give me that. Alfred: May I take some pictures tonight? Prabhupāda: Just open . . . Hayagrīva, you can come here. Sit down here. Seventh Chapter, fourteenth verse. Hayagrīva: (reading) "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material . . ." Prabhupāda: Fourteen? That is fourteen? Hayagrīva: 7.14? Prabhupāda: Seventh Chapter, fourteenth verse. Hayagrīva: Fourteenth verse. "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: This is the solution. This material nature . . . what is that? Read it again. Hayagrīva: "This divine energy . . . this divine energy of Mine . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. This material nature is another energy of Kṛṣṇa, or God. So the energy is very strong. It is very difficult to surpass the problems put forward by the material energy. What is the exact language? Hayagrīva: "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome." Prabhupāda: "Is difficult to overcome." There are three modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. But they are very difficult to overcome. And now, what is the solution? Hayagrīva: "But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." Prabhupāda: Yes. The solution is we have to surrender unto the Supreme. Just like if you are arrested by the police, then it is very difficult to get out of their clutches. But if you are a good citizen, surrendered soul to the state, there is no problem; the police has nothing to do with you. Is it very difficult to understand? The problems are there, and the problems are under the management of this material nature. So it is not possible to overcome the stringent laws of material nature, exactly like if you are once arrested by the police department, it is not very easy to come out. So mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te ( BG 7.14). So if you want to get out of these clutches of material nature, which is putting forward problems after problem, then you have to become a surrendered soul, or Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, material nature is so strong, you think, "Now this problem is solved," but actually that is not solved. You create another problem. So is there any other method for solving the problems? Anyone can suggest? The ultimate problem is, of course, death. Nobody wants to die. Even one is very old man, older than me, and his body is not working, he's invalid, he cannot walk even, lying on the bed—still, he wants to live. If some suffering old man, from many diseases, invalid person, if you say: "My dear father, grandfather, you are so much suffering. Let me shoot you," "Oh, no, no, no. Don't shoot me." He doesn't want to die. So death is a problem. Nobody wants to die, but death comes and captures him, just like President Kennedy, within a second (snaps finger) "Leave this position." Forced. Submit. "Yes. What can I do?" No scientific advancement of knowledge. *Of course, this is also another science, Kṛṣṇa science. But we understand scientific knowledge, this material scientists . . . material science. They are also trying. The Russians sometimes say that, "Time will come when science will solve the problem of death. Nobody will die." Let them think like that, but it is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *One who is actually learned, advanced in knowledge, he should know that these four things: the miseries of taking birth . . . the misery of taking birth means we have to take . . . we have to appear . . . after this body is finished, we have to take another body. How this body is constructed, developed? In the womb of the mother. The father gives the semina with the living entity within, and mother receives it and develops it, body. This is nature's law. So you have to live within the mother, compact, air*-tight packed, for ten months at least. *Just imagine if you are packed in a bag and put in a air*-tight compartment, locked up, would you like? You'll die within three seconds. But the arrangement is so nice, by nature's law, the intestine, that the child lives with the mother's breathing, mother's fooding. Even unconscious, his development of the body goes on. That is nature's arrangement. But you cannot do that. It is by God's grace the child lives. Otherwise, by your so-called scientific calculation, nobody can live in that condition. You just try it. Take any man, pack him, and put it in the air-tight condition. He'll die within three seconds. So there is suffering during birth. Similarly, there is suffering during death. These are . . . and the concomitant sufferings always with this body. Similarly, there is suffering if you are diseased, and similarly there is suffering when you are old. Just like we are old, and some way or other, keeping this body by massaging, by taking some medicine, this way, that way. This body is no longer just like a young man's body. It is suffering body. *As soon as you are over fifty years, by nature, so the old age begins. And when you are over seventy years, you are completely old, and you have to suffer the consequences of old age. You may try to keep that old body some . . . but there is suffering. A young man cannot understand, but one who is old, he can understand, there is suffering: suffering of old age, suffering of birth, suffering of death and suffering of diseases. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are proud of your advancement of knowledge, that we have solved all the questions, all the problems, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "Don't think like that. That is your foolishness. These problems are there. What you can do?" That is learning, "Yes. Problems are not solved. The problems are there." That is knowledge. If you have got some problem, and . . . just like the rabbits. The rabbits, when they face one hunter and it understands that, "Now my life is in danger," he closes his eyes. He thinks that, "The problem is solved." (laughs) And peacefully he is killed. (laughs) You see? Similarly, their problems are there but we are closing our eyes, "Oh, there is no problem. We are very happy." So this is called māyā . The problem is not solved, but they are thinking that problem is solved by closing the eyes. That's all. *Now, here is the solution of problem, as Kṛṣṇa says in the fourteenth verse, Seventh Chapter, of Bhagavad*-gītā : "It is very difficult to surmount the problems offered by the laws of material nature, but one who surrenders unto Me, he overcomes." Therefore we are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to solve the problems of life. It is not sentiment or fanaticism or any sectarian religion. It is a fact that if you want to solve the problems of life, you have to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no other alternative. *Kṛṣṇa*-nāma karo bhāi āra saba mithyā . You understand Bengali? (chuckles) It says that, "Just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything is false, all other means of making some . . . false." Why? Palāibe patha naya ya mache kichu . "You cannot escape. Just death is waiting behind you." So before death overcomes you, you make a solution of the problem. That is intelligence, that "The greatest danger is awaiting me—death." That is sure. "As sure as death." Everyone knows. Now, how we shall meet death? Like cats and dogs? Then what is the use of this human form of life? The cats and dogs, they have got body. They have also will meet death. And I have got body; *I will also meet death. So am I meant for meeting death like cats and dogs? Then what kind of human form . . . human being I am? No. The śāstra says that labdhvā su*-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte (SB 11.9.29). After many, many evolution of different kinds of body . . . you understand the evolutionary theory. It is not exactly like Darwin's theory, but this evolutionary process is there. That is admitted in Vedic literature—from lower grade of animal life to the higher grade of animal life. So this human form of life is to be understood. We have got this human form of life after many, many lower grades of life. Labdhvā su-durlabham . And it's very rare. You count, those who are biologists, you count how many kinds of living entities are there. There are 8,400,000's of species of life. Out of that, the human being are very small quantity. Out of 8,400,000, the human species of life are 400,000; compared with other animals, a very small quantity. *Out of that, there are uncivilized men, many. They are almost animals. Then there is civilized form of human being, just like we are. Out of them, they do not know . . . many, they do not know what is spiritual life. Manuṣyāṇām . That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). Out of many thousands of human being, one is interested to make a solution of the problems. Not everyone. Everyone, they do not know even that what is the problem. Neither they do care for it. They think, "All right, let there be problem. We have got this life. Let us enjoy senses." So they are almost animal. But those who are inquisitive how to solve the problem, they are actually accepted as human being. Others, they are not even human being; they are almost animals. So we have got this opportunity. This body should be utilized properly, how to solve the problem. If we simply give ourself in the waves of the cycle of birth and death, of different types of body, that is not very good intelligence. Not intelligence at all. So this human form of life should be utilized how to make solution of the problems. That is Vedic civilization. They stressed more on the solution of the problems . . . (break) . . . create problems. The materialistic way of life means to increase and create problems. That is not perfect human civilization. The perfect human civilization is that you have to sit very calmly quietly and philosophically think, "How to solve the problem? Where I shall get the knowledge?" This is human possible. The whole Vedic instruction is like that: "Now you utilize this form of life to make a solution of this problem. Don't die . . . before death comes, you make a solution. Don't die like cats and dogs." No. And one who tries . . . the Veda says, etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ : "One who dies after attempting to make a solution of the problems, he is brahmin ." And one who dies like cats and dog, he is called kṛpaṇa . Kṛpaṇa means a very less intelligent man. So we should not die like cats and dog. We should die like brahmin . Even in one life this solution is not made, then you get next life opportunity. Just like all these boys who have come to us, it is to be understood that they tried in their last life also for making a solution of this problem, but it was not finished; *there is another opportunity. These things are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So now, this life, you should be determined. Those who are coming to the touch of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and initiated to execute, they should be very determined that, "In this life we shall make a solution. No more . . . no more coming again." That should be our determination. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for this purpose—to make a solution to all the problems of life and go back to home, back to Godhead, where we get eternal, blissful life of knowledge. This is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What do you think, our Australian friend? What is your name? Alfred: Alfred. Prabhupāda: Alfred? Alfred: Alfred. Prabhupāda: Humphrey? Devotee: No, no, no. Alfred: Alfred. Yes. Prabhupāda: Alfred. Devotee: He's from Austria. Prabhupāda: So, very good. So you try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and just start a center in your country. Alfred: No, there is no center. Prabhupāda: No chance? Alfred: Well, we can start one. Lady devotee: We can start one. We can start a center. Alfred: Yes, maybe, maybe. Prabhupāda: Why not? There are also human being. Why not? Let . . . people are suffering. Let them have this knowledge and be happy. Our proposal is sarve sukhino bhavantu . That is Vedic civilization: "You all be happy." The Vedic civilization is not "Oh, here is very nice boy. Oh, you have got money. Let me exploit you and bluff you and take your money." That is not Vedic civilization. Vedic civilization is to think, "Oh, let everyone be happy." Sarve sukhino bhavantu : "Everyone be happy." So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness cult. It is not a cult; *it is an actual, the fact for solving all problems. People should know. And if he is intelligent, he'll accept it. If he's intelligent. Because kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura . Without being very intelligent, nobody can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not possible. Less intelligent persons cannot do it. It is meant for the first*-class intelligent man. (pause) (aside) Ārati ? Later on. English boy (2): Is it possible for one to make it in this life? This one . . .? Is it possible that one falls down? *Prabhupāda: It is possible in one second, provided you are serious. It is not difficult. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "After many, many births, one . . . when one is intelligent, wise, fully grown, wise, he surrenders unto Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So if I am intelligent, then I will see that, "If that is the goal of life, that after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not myself surrender immediately?" This is intelligence. If this is a fact, that one has to come to this point after cultivating knowledge for many, many births, then why not accept it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births if this is a fact? *So that requires little intelligence. It does not require many, many births. It requires little intelligence. Take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, your problems are solved. Now, if you don't believe in it, then come to argument, come to philosophy, come to reason. Go on arguing. There are volumes of books. You can be convinced. You can learn it. The every answer is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . You can try to understand it with your reason, with your argument. It is open. *Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was taught Bhagavad*-gītā , how much time? Utmost, within half an hour. Because he was very intelligent. This Bhagavad-gītā , the people of the world are reading. Very, very learned scholar, wise men, they are reading. They are trying to understand, giving different interpretation. And there are thousands of edition, commentary. But Arjuna was intelligent; he understood it within half an hour. So it requires of the relative intelligence. Everything . . . this world is relative. Law of relativity. That is scientific. Professor Einstein's theory? Law of relativity? So it is relatively. One can become immediately Kṛṣṇa conscious within a second, and one cannot become Kṛṣṇa consciousness after many, many births. So it is relative. If you have got sufficient intelligence, you can accept it immediately. If there is less intelligence, then it will take time. You cannot say that, "It will be possible after so many years." That cannot be said. It is relative. Everything is relative. For a human being, from here to here, one step; and for a small microbe, it is ten miles from here to here. Ten miles for him. So everything is relative. This world is relative world. There is no such formula that, "One can be Kṛṣṇa conscious after so many years." No. There is no such formula. One cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious even millions after . . . birth, and one can become within second Kṛṣṇa conscious. But on the average, within this life we can become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if we take it seriously. Especially you are all young boys. We expect at least you'll live for fifty years more. Oh, that is sufficient time. Sufficient. More than sufficient. More than sufficient. If for fifty years one chants simply Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he is sure to become perfect. There is no doubt about it. Simply if he chants this mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa, oh, there is no doubt about it. Guest (3): I had a question. Whose choice is it? In other words, you said it takes an intelligent person to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but it's obvious that (there) are not so many intelligent people. Whose choice is it? In other words, if a person isn't intelligent, is it because he wants to enjoy that makes him ignorant? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Or is it because he just has to wait until he is . . . *Prabhupāda: It is his choice. Just like if somebody offers you one million dollars, "Take it," you do not know what is the value of one million dollar, you will refuse it. So little intelligence. So the choice is yours. In all the case, the choice is yours. If you know the value, instantly you accept it. If you do not know the value, then it will take time. But after all, the choice is depending on you to accept it or not accept it. It is your choice. Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad*-gītā . After instructing him, He inquires, "Whether your illusion is now over? What you decide to do now?" He said: "Yes, my illusion is over. I will act what You say." That's all. The choice is mine. Alfred: I know so many people, young people, that when they see us chanting on the street, I can see their eyes that they really want to chant also, but something is stopping them. They really . . . *Prabhupāda: That is māyā . Māyā is there. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "The māyā is very strong." But if you capture Kṛṣṇa very . . . more strongly, then māyā cannot do anything. If something is opposing your chanting, then you'll have to chant more loudly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So you defeat māyā . The medicine is the same. At least, I do so. When I am in some danger, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa loudly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ (laughter) Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That's all. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . there is song: jāy sakal bipod gaya bhaktivinod bole jakhon o*-nām gāi (from Gītāvalī ). He says: "As soon as I chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, I become immediately free from all dangers." So the means is there. We have to utilize it. That requires intelligence. So my request to you all boys, that you try to understand and . . . you understand or not understand, it is a standard method. Try to induce people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They will be happy. They will get the . . . real thing will be delivered to them. That is a fact. So such a simple method and such sublime gain, so why one should lose this opportunity? There is no loss, but the gain is very great. So why should we all lose this opportunity? Let us make an experiment, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And those who are making, those who are chanting, they are being convinced, they are being advanced. They are realizing. Otherwise . . . they are not wasting time. Here is a boy, he is postgraduate. He is teacher. So he's not a fool. So why he's sticking, unless he's feeling that, "Yes, I am advancing"? So anyone who will take to it, he will understand, yes, he is advancing. It may take little more time or quickly; that doesn't matter. But he will feel it. Pratyakṣāvagamaṁ dharmyam (BG 9.2). Just like you are suffering, you are hungry. If actually nutritious foodstuff is given to you, when you eat, you understand, "Yes, I am getting strength. My hunger is being satisfied." This is also like that. If you take to chanting, you will feel, "Yes, I am getting strength. My misgivings are being moved." In this way you go on, go on, go on, the perfect stage will come. It may take little more time or it may come quickly. That depends on my relative endeavor. But it will come. Be sure. And with this faith and conviction and understanding, you make progress. Everything will be all right. But don't be misled that, "There is no problem of life; *we are very happy, eating, sleeping, mating." This is animal life. There is so many great problems. Very great problems. This birth, death, old age, disease and repeated . . . bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Once manifested, again non*-manifested; *again manifested, again non*-manifested. This body is manifested; now it will be finished. Again we will have to take shelter of a mother's womb by such a process, maybe human being or other than human being. Then another body manifested. Then again finished, then again manifested. So it is . . . this is very troublesome business. (laughs) So why should we accept this troublesome business? Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). *This body is changing. Just remember your childhood: oh, how much troublesome life we have undergone in our . . . at least I can remember. Everyone can remember. So stop this problem. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). And what is the difficulty? You do your own work and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't say that you stop your business, stop your occupation. You remain. Just like he is teacher. All right, he is teacher. He is jeweler. Remain jeweler. He's something, he's something. That doesn't matter. But be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Think of Kṛṣṇa. Take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Everything is there. And be happy. That is our propaganda. You learn yourself, and preach this cult. People will be happy. Simple method. Prabhupāda: Viśvanātha Prabhu, you understand English? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: You stay with your son? Woman: No. I am visting him for a few weeks. Prabhupāda: So why don't you stay here and join your son for preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Because your son is so good, you must be good. Because a son cannot be good unless the mother is good, because son inherits the mother's quality. That is nature. This Hayagrīva's mother wrote me first one letter of congratulations, and she came also to see me in New Vrindaban, his father and mother. Especially his mother is very happy. So, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will produce good father and mother, and therefore they will have good children, and there will be no problem in the world. If everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . not everyone; *even ten percent people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will be no problem. Problem is created due to bad children. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : varṇa-saṅkara (BG 1.42). So if there are good children, there is no problem. Even in this material world, everything will become happy. *The basic principle of Vedic civilization is to create good children. All the rules and regulation, everything is there just to create good children. In the first chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā these things are described very nicely by Arjuna. There are many purificatory processes to create a good child. A human being is not meant for creating offspring like cats and dogs. They must produce very good child. That is Vedic civilization. Good child means Kṛṣṇa conscious child. That's all. Yes. So we are trying to turn these children of the Western world, good children. And people should cooperate with us, this movement. They are taking care of the children, especially young boys and girls they are coming, and we are taking care of them very nicely. Sometimes we are getting them married also, to make their life very peaceful and intelligent and spiritually advanced, and make a solution of life. So people should come forward to cooperate with this movement. (pause) How many children you have got? Woman: Two boys. Prabhupāda: Two? Woman: And other one. Prabhupāda: Other. He is eldest? Woman: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? Woman: Ah. The other one is in Canada. Prabhupāda: Canada? In Vancouver? No. Devotee: No. In Calgary. Prabhupāda: So is there any other process in making solution. Hayagrīva? You are biased. Hayagrīva: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You suggest that, "Here is another solution. Why we should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" No. There is no other. You have got any suggestion, any other method? No. Then why don't you take to it and preach? What is the difficulty? You don't like to take it? Maṇḍalībhadra your friend he doesn't like? Ask him. If it is good you must take it. That is intelligence. Should not reject anything good especially Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Very nice verse. He instructs that, "If you can purchase Kṛṣṇa consciousness from any market, any store, please immediately buy it." Then next question is, "Then what is the price? What shall I have to pay for it?" And Rūpa Gosvāmī says: "Oh, the price is simply eagerness." Tatra laulyam . "Yes, I must have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the price, that's all. But that Laulyam , that eagerness, is not achieved even after many, many births. That is the price. Therefore it requires a little intelligence. "Oh, such a valuable thing? I can purchase only by eagerness? Why not become eager immediately?" That is intelligence. You are German or Australian or American? Guest: I am English. Prabhupāda: Oh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . from England. He is chanting on the record too. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are living in our temple, no? What is your name? Guest: Jimmy Prabhupāda: So you are initiated, no? You are initiated, no? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not yet. Some boy got initiated. Three boys. Guest: Three yes. Prabhupāda: So when you have come? Here? (break) Guest: When did I come? This evening. Prabhupāda: This evening. Oh? Very nice. So we are going to London . . . (break) (end) Conversation - Vaisnava Calendar Description -- September 2, 1970, Calcutta *Prabhupāda: . . . Rādhāṣṭami, and birth, birthday of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. This day the function is observed by fasting up to twelve noon, and then, uh, offer prasādam to the Deity, and generally in the evening, we should hold meeting discussing the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa pastimes, especially the glories of Rādhārāṇī. Amongst the gopīs, her super-excellence . . . that is the way of observing. Rādhārāṇī's . . . fasting is up to twelve noon and after that you can take prasādam , feasting. The next important day is on the 26th, no, 12th September, 12th September, 1970 . . . the advent day of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī Prabhu. (pause) On that day there are three functions. First of all, Ekādaśi, a special Ekādaśi called Pārśvaika Ekādaśi. Then on that day, actually, Ekādaśi according to calendar, Ekādaśi was to be observed on the 11th September, but because the next day is Vāmana Dvādaśī . . . Vāmana Dvādaśī means the advent of Lord Vāmanadeva. Therefore we have fast, Ekādaśi fasting, and we observe two fastings in one day, Ekādaśi and Vāmanadeva, Vāmana Dvādaśī. The same process as we observe Ekādaśi, and the evening there should be a meeting discussing on the life and work of Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī. He is one of the very important ācāryas in our sampradāya , so especially his Sandarbhas should be discussed. If there is no such book, then the following discussion may be, take place. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī was a brahmacārī , he left his home at the age of 10 to 12 years. His father and two elder uncles, they left home. His father was Vallabha, and his elder uncles, Sanātana and Rūpa, or Sākara Mallika and Dabira Khāsa. So, they were all government servants, but after meeting Caitanya Mahāprabhu they decided to retire from the service, and three of them retired. Out of that, Sanātana Gosvāmī was very important officer. The Nawab did not like his retirement so he interned him, not allowed him to go out of home. But Rūpa Gosvāmī and his younger brother, Vallabha, they left home, and they left instruction also to Sanātana Gosvāmī, that there is some money for his release, he could utilize that money. So Rūpa Gosvāmī and Vallabha left home prior to Sanātana Gosvāmī's leaving home. So, Rūpa Gosvāmī and Vallabha met Lord Caitanya at Prayāga—these things are mentioned in our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* —you can read, teachings to Sanātana Gosvāmī and Rūpa Gosvāmī and their meeting with Lord Caitanya at Allahabad, Prayāga. So this boy, Jīva Gosvāmī, when he saw that his father and uncles all left home, why he should remain at home? So he also left, and he first of all went to Benares, which is called Vārāṇasī. It is a great center for learning Sanskrit. So he finished his education in Sanskrit grammar, specifically, he was a great scholar in Sanskrit grammar. According to Vedic system, the students are first of all taught the Sanskrit grammar, because it is very difficult subject. *Usually one has to study grammar for 12 years, and when one is very much conversant with grammatical rules, he can read any literature. That means after studying grammar, the door is open for any other subject matter, just like philosophy, medicine, then military art, there are so many Vedic knowledges. Generally they read literature, the Purāṇas , the Vedāntas and śaipa , śaipa means general literature. So Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī became a great scholar in grammar and then he studied all Vedic literatures, and after that he approached his uncle Rūpa Gosvāmī in Vṛndāvana. He became a disciple of his uncle by proper initiation and remained with him. He was assisting his uncle and after hearing from him he composed very scholarly books know as Ṣaṭ*-Sandarbha . *These Ṣaṭ*-Sandarbha are recognized as the most scholarly work in the world. There is no comparison of his philosophical approach to the Vaiṣṇava school. Generally, the impersonal Brahman is discussed there, then Kṛṣṇa is discussed there, Bhāgavata is discussed there, love of Kṛṣṇa is discussed there. In this way, all subject matter, very elaborately discussed in Ṣaṭ-Sandarbha . That is his, the greatest gift (of) Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. And one of the Sandarbha thesis is Karma Sandarbha , his comments on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So Jīva Gosvāmī was so big scholar but sometimes one ordinary scholar, he approached Rūpa Gosvāmī that, "I want to discuss with you about śāstra ". Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand that this man is not a devotee, he will simply waste my time. He inquired from him, "What is your purpose of discussing with me about śāstras ? He said that, "I have discussed śāstras with many (aside) You sit down. "Big scholars and I have come victorious, so if I come victorious by discussing with you, then I will have very good fame and name." So Rūpa Gosvāmī could understand his view or his ambition that, "this man is a materialistic man, he wants some name and fame," so he told him, "All right, without discussing, if I give you certificate that I am defeated, will that do?" So, he said: "Yes, that will do." So he gave him in writing that, "I had śāstric discussion with this man, and I found myself very much inferior and defeated." So he was very glad to take that certificate, but when he was going, Jīva Gosvāmī saw, "My dear sir, what is that paper you have taken?" "No your uncle has agreed that he was defeated, so I have got this certificate, I am going." So he said: "Alright, let me see what he has written." So he gave him, and he kept that paper, and then he invited that, "You have defeated my uncle, but you can discuss with me also." So he agreed. So he was defeated. He was defeated and the matter was informed to Rūpa Gosvāmī that, "Your nephew and your disciple, Jīva Gosvāmī has defeated that learned scholar. So Rūpa Gosvāmī became a little angry superficially that, "Why did you bother? He was taking . . ." So some people say that Jīva Gosvāmī was rejected on this ground by Rūpa Gosvāmī, but that is not a fact. He was very glad that Jīva Gosvāmī defeated him, but he superficially said: "Why should you take so much trouble and bother? He might have gone with that certificate." But it is the duty of the disciple that even the spiritual master, or senior ācārya , they agree to be defeated, it is the duty of the disciple to see that his spiritual master and superior is not defeated. *That is the instruction we get from Jīva Gosvāmī's behavior. This is one of the important . . . and later on when Jīva Gosvāmī established the Rādhā*-Damodara temple in Vṛndāvana, but he had no sons because he was brahmacārī , so some of his gṛhastha devotee was entrusted with the management of the Rādhā-Damodara temple, and they are still going on by their descendants. Then next important . . . (break) . . . the next important date is 14th September, which is known as Ananta Caturdaśī, and the disappearance day of Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura, and appearance day of . . . (pause) Thirteenth September is the appearance day of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and 14th Septmeber is Ananta Caturdaśī and disappearance day of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Devotee: On the calendar here it has 14th of September Advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, the 13th September, worship of Śrī Vāmanadeva. Fifteenth of September Viśvarūpa festival. Prabhupāda: Yes, 15th September, Viśvarūpa. Devotee: Fourteenth of September, Prabhupāda: No, 15th September. Devotee: Yeah, Visvarupa, but 14th of September advent of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda. Prabhupāda: No, that should be 13th. Devotee: Thirteenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura 13th, and 14th Ananta Caturdaśī and Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So, this 14th September should be observed fasting, whole day. Devotee: Fourteenth is the advent of or the demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura? Prabhupāda: Yes Devotee: The death, I mean the disappearance Prabhupāda: Yes, but not for demise of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but because that is Ananta Caturdaśī Vrata, the, generally the fasting is observed till evening, up to 5 o'clock. The next day, Viśvarūpa Mahotsava, feasting. Devotee: On the 13th of September, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda's Appearance is there any special observance? *Prabhupāda: No, special observance means to discuss about the life and works of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that's all. Then 26th September, Ekādaśī. Then 10th October, Vijayā*-daśamī, appearance date of Śrīla Madhvācārya, and the victory day of Lord Rāmacandra. So there is no fasting, but in the evening we should celebrate some feasting and discuss about the life and works of Śrī Madhvācārya as well as Rāmāyaṇa incidents where Rāma and Rāvaṇa fought. The next day is Ekādaśī, that is means 11th October. Then 12th October is Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, there is no fasting, but we should have discussion of Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī happened to be the only boy of his father and his uncle. He was a very rich man's son, but he left home for Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. His life should be discussed as follows, that from the beginning he was very much detached to worldly life. So his father and mother saw that this boy is very much detached, he should be immediately married with a beautiful wife. So that was done—he was given a very nice house and beautiful wife—but still he was very much detached. So when he was a householder he met Nityānanda at Pāṇihāṭī and he prayed Lord Caitanya to take him with Him. At that time Caitanya was sannyāsī . Lord Caitanya instructed him that, "Don't be in a hurry, gradually Kṛṣṇa will give you a chance to be aloof from these worldly affairs." He was very intelligent even though he was detached from worldly affairs, but from his activities it appears that he was very intelligent also in worldly affairs. While somehow or other, for political reasons, his father and uncle were to be arrested by the minister of the then, Muslim government, and his father and uncle hided themselves to avoid the arrest. Then the agent of the Nawab, he arrested Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. So "Tell, where is your father and uncle, otherwise you shall be tortured." So he did not answer anything, but after some time when he was in arrest, he very politely presented his case to the minister, "My dear sir, I know my uncle, father and yourself, you are very intimate friends and treat each other as brothers. So sometimes there is some quarrel between brothers, that I can understand. But so far I am concerned, I am equally affectionate to my father, uncle as well as to yourself. I am also your son." In this way, when he very politely presented, the minister became very much affected, and he began to cry, "Yes, this boy is very nice." So he immediately released him and told him that, "Yes, we are brothers. Now if you settle up our disagreement that will be very nice." So he was released and he made a settlement between the minister and his father and uncle, so in that settlement he showed his worldly intelligence very nicely. He was not a, ah, less politician; his management was so nice. So that means a Vaiṣṇava is not less intelligent, he can manage anything. But that does not mean that he is attached to anything. This example we get from Śrī Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī. Even in his household life he managed things very intelligently, but later on he left home. He was guarded by the watchman of his father and uncle, but he somehow or other got out of their watch . . . (indistinct) . . . and directly went to see Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and when Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw him coming to His shelter, He very much welcomed him, and He said: "Raghunātha, you have been saved by Kṛṣṇa from the hole of stool. Your father and uncle happened to be friend of my grandfather." *Lord Caitanya's grandfather was Nīlāmbara Cakravartī, and he was a very well*-known learned Brahmin , so all the big men were known to him. So this father and uncle of Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī used to call him as elder brother. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu took this opportunity that, "Your father and uncle is in brotherly relation with my grandfather. Therefore, your father and uncle happens to be my grandfather. Generally, the grandfather and the grandson, they treat themselves joking, so I can joke your father and uncle, you do not be sorry." Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not reply anything, he was very submissive. So in that connection He said that, "Your father and uncle is a worms of the stool. They are very much fond of material enjoyment, and Kṛṣṇa has saved you from that hole of stool." So in this way he criticized his father and uncle. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not reply. Then he entrusted him to His secretary, Svarūpa Dāmodara, for his teaching, and in this way Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was known as Svarūpa's Raghunātha. So, his father became very sorry that the boy has left home, and he has gone to Caitanya, they are mendicants, very hard life, how this boy will live? So immediately he sent some servants and 400 rupees. Four hundred rupees in those days a hundred times valuable than at the present moment. So he was sending 400 rupees regularly per month and Ragunatha Dāsa Gosvāmī was accepting them, but he was spending the money by prasāda distribution to the saintly persons of Jagannātha Purī, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was also invited, and He also used to go. But after some time, he stopped that invitation. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu inquired, "So why Raghunātha does not nowadays invite us? What is the matter? So Svarūpa Dāmodara informed Him that, "He is no more accepting the rupees sent by his father". "Oh, he has left it?" "Yes, sir." "Very nice, then how he is living?" "Now he stands on the staircase of Jagannātha temple at night, and when the pūjārīs go away they give some foodstuff, and he eats that." "Oh, that's nice." So one day Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to see how Raghunātha . . . this means Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu had good attention on Raghunātha's activities although he was entrusted to His secretary for teaching. So one day He went to that staircase, He did not find Raghunātha Dāsa there, so He inquired, "I did not find Raghunātha Dāsa there." So His secretary informed, "So he has left that also, practice." "Why? Then how he is eating?" "No, he does not go anywhere, ask anybody, but he stands on the outside of the kitchen of Jagannātha and whatever rice is thrown from the outlet of that kitchen, while the kitchen is washed, he collects some rice and eats those rice." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu became very much glad to hear that Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī is practicing so much renunciation. So all of a sudden one day He went to his room, "Raghunātha, I did not see you for so many days." Then He found out in a pot those collected rice were kept and immediately He took it, "Oh, you have got very nice rice here," and began to eat. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī immediately caught His hand, "Sir, it is not fit for Your eating." "Oh! I am eating so nice, you say it is not fit for Me?" That means Lord Caitanya encouraged him that, "Don't be discouraged that this is bad, or this is not fit. I can eat, anyone can eat." In this way Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī was elevated to a very exalted position amongst the Gosvāmīs. He is known as Dāsa Gosvāmī because he belonged to the kāyastha family and other Gosvāmīs, they belonged to Brahmin family. Therefore, in order to keep his position as subordinate to the Brahmins , he was known as Dāsa Gosvāmī. But it does not make any difference whether a Brahmin is a Gosvāmī or a non- brahmin is a Gosvāmī, he is equally respected. *This Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī later on, after Lord Caitanya's disappearance he went to Vṛndāvana to associate with the other Gosvāmīs, and he remained mostly at Rādhā*-kuṇḍa, and he passed his days at Rādhā-kuṇḍa. His tomb is there still in Rādhā-kuṇḍa and he has got established a temple, that is Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī's temple. All the Gosvāmīs established some temple, separately. That temple is also there. *(break) . . . some of the instructions that such exalted personalities used to keep regular routine vow. Another thing that is also very difficult. At Rādhā*-kuṇḍa Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī did not eat every day. He would eat every alternate day, or maybe after two days, he would take a little butter, say about ten grains or twenty grains, and that was his foodstuff, and the whole day and night he would engage himself in chanting, in writing books. He did not write many books, but some of his prayers are very famous. Some prayers, mostly he was engaged in chanting, and offering obeisances, circumambulating. Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī's life is so glorious. This should be discussed on that day . . . (indistinct) . . . later on. Devotee: Thank you Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1970, Bombay Prabhupāda: There are nice birds. Cuckoo. Devotee: That cuckoo bird? *Prabhupāda: "Co*-co, co-co, co." Haṁsadūta: In India everything is alive. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I said. In India it appears that everything is alive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: When we came we first noticed that everywhere there's a town, all kinds of animals are living. No one is disturbing them. Prabhupāda: Well, this is land of religion. It is admitted by other parts of the world. Just see. Columbus was searching after India even for trade, hundred of years . . . people are coming to India for so many: for knowledge, for philosophy, for trade, for money. Why these Britishers came? They came for money. And now, India being exploited for so many thousands of years and their standard of civilization deteriorated, the condition is now . . . still, India's position is unique, still, in this fallen condition. Now people are degraded from their high standard of living, from spiritual point of view, material point of view. And still, they stand, previous social construction, their living condition, their feelings of religion. It is still going on. Climate also. Haṁsadūta: Climate. Prabhupāda: Climate also. The climate is very favorable. Now it is, of course, winter season. Otherwise, it will continue for two months only. It is not very severe, and still, this condition will not continue. Throughout the whole year you can remain naked body. There is no expenditure for dressing much. And to remain clean, you simply wash in the water, and immediately it is . . . so with one cloth or two cloths you can go on for six months. There is no much expenditure. And this vegetarian diet, if you take a few grains of this chick pea and little milk, you don't require anything to eat. Everything, facility, is there still. But they have . . . the people are being trained up to imitate Western civilization. That is the government policy that, "Unless you become westernized, technologist, you'll not be happy." But they can become happy even in this condition. This artificial partition has caused some trouble by the Britishers because the Pakistan has taken away all the wheat and rice. Their purpose was that . . . *The Punjab side, they are producing wheat in very large quantity. In Bengal, that is the . . . perhaps the biggest rice producing country in the world, Bengal. So rice is in Pakistan and wheat is in Pakistan. Even cows, they were maintained by the Punjabis, big, big cows, milk*-producing. They are now in the Punjab. So there is no milk, there is no rice, there is no wheat. And they have no sugar. The sugar is produced this side. In this way, always. And the Kashmir question . . . that is British policy. Due to this partition only, India's position is now very crippled. And these rascal leaders, they accepted partition for becoming prime minister. This policy. Gandhi never agreed. So the Jawaharlal Nehru, in order to become prime minister, he committed such a blunder. Therefore India is given . . . Still, if they keep to their original culture, they will not be unhappy. And you'll find in every city some such institution as this *Gītā* Bhavan. In every city you'll find. People are contributing. They are coming. They are holding ceremony, calling saintly persons, every city still. Just like we have gone to Punjab? Revatīnandana: Amritsar. *Prabhupāda: Amritsar. How people were anxious to hear. Then there will be the Kumbha*-melā. If you go to Kumbha-melā you'll see how from all different parts of the country, millions of people will come to participate. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Allahabad? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Millions and millions of people. There is no advertisement, but they will come. Government wanted to discourage them in so many ways. In Jagannātha Purī you will find daily, in Vṛndāvana and all sacred places. The Ārya*-samājīs, the government, they tried to condemn this temple worship, this . . . Haṁsadūta: Nehru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nehru, yes. Nehru was such a rascal that he came . . . Ramakrishna Mission has a big hospital in Vṛndāvana. So on the opening day he came from Delhi by helicopter. He stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning, and the function took place in the evening. Or in daytime. He left the same day. But he did not visit a single temple. You see? Such an atheist he was. Haṁsadūta: He was also involved in that Jagannātha . . . there were many carvings on the temple, and he had some of them destroyed, at the Jagannātha temple. Prabhupāda: What it is? What he has destroyed? Himāvatī: It was a sun temple. Prabhupāda: Sun? Himāvatī: Sun. They worship the sun. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Himāvatī: And there are many obscene statues, so he came to that temple and said: "What is this?" and he had them destroyed . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He was a great rascal. Change this water. Revatīnandana: You saved us from all these rascals, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: You saved us from all these rascals . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Himāvatī: You saved us from all these rascals. You're the only one who told us these kind of people are . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Because if Nehru was a rascal, then what was Johnson and Nixon? What are they? *Prabhupāda: They are also rascals. All these politicians, they are rascals. Yes. That is Kali*-yuga. Where king was like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, now he is Johnson and Nehru. So how people will be happy? Haṁsadūta: So we have to run some of our devotees for office. Prabhupāda: No, if you can make the people Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be automatically. Because the democracy is there. So if they vote for a Kṛṣṇa conscious person to become president and prime minister, then everything will be saved. So that means you have to create voter, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be right. That should be one of your aims, the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement. The government is still is under the control of the public. That's a fact. If the public becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, naturally the government will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that is up to the public. But they do not want to. Therefore they want a king—the crane was sent. You know this story? The frogs, they wanted a king from God, and God gave. He gave them one stone . . . (indistinct) . . . small. So they were expecting a king. Then, when they saw that king is not speaking, somebody jumped over it. Still, the king did not say: "What can be done to the king?" So they accused the God that, "What kind of king you have . . .? He does not speak. He does not move." *"All right." Then He sent one crane. So the crane came and began to catch one like that. Then they became, "Oh, what kind of king?" (laughs) (laughter) So the public is like that. They wanted. They defied this religious system. They defied their . . . yes. The modernizing. Who was saying, "the modernized version of Bhagavad*-gītā "? Chinmayananda? Haṁsadūta: Chinmayananda. Prabhupāda: They're appreciating. You see? Revatīnandana: There's a story I read. Sometimes the . . . in South America there's a small wildcat called ocelot. And they are like tigers, but very small. They eat monkeys. They eat monkeys in the tree. They're cats, about twice as big as a house cat, called ocelots. And sometimes these ocelots, they'll lay on the branch of a tree like they're dead. They don't move. They don't even blink their eyes. And all the monkeys come and they gather around to see this dead ocelot. And finally the monkeys get very crazy and they go, one of them, and pull the tail of the ocelot, and then it's all over. That's how they kill the monkeys. Prabhupāda: Therefore monkeys are considered very fools. Haṁsadūta: Foolish. Prabhupāda: Foolish, yes. Revatīnandana: They're like the people, and the leaders kill them. Prabhupāda: There are some birds, they also eat monkeys. Haṁsadūta: Birds. Revatīnandana: Big hawks like eagles. *Prabhupāda: Monkey*-eaters. I have seen that bird in Los Angeles zoo, monkey-eater bird. Revatīnandana: They're from Africa. Big eagles. Haṁsadūta: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja told us about the monkeys in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many monkeys. Himāvatī: Big monkeys. Prabhupāda: No, no. Himāvatī: No? Prabhupāda: That is in Bengal. That is called Hanumān. Revatīnandana: You said they will join a gang. You said in Vṛndāvana they would come in a gang. And three or four will jump out in front like this, and the rest will grab what you have and take it away. You said they would do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They're very smart. Prabhupāda: But if you have got a stick, they will not come. They are afraid of stick. The dogs also, they are afraid of stick. Therefore in such places one should carry in hand one stick. That is safe. After all, they are animals. They know that a man can strike with the stick very severely. They are afraid of that. In Vṛndāvana, in the beginning, I was eating, and a monkey entered very peacefully and took it, everything. (laughter) He took everything. I could not replace. I began running. Immediately caught up. They do like that. In Vṛndāvana you cannot open doors. Haṁsadūta: Really? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: They come right in. They're so bold? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Haṁsadūta: They're so bold? Prabhupāda: Bold means they will come and they have no tactic. You are eating and they'll enter. Something he will take away. Therefore there are . . . just like here, two sets of doors, one net, the railing door. So one door is closed, wooden; another is railing. So railing door must be closed always. Otherwise you cannot eat, you cannot live very peacefully. They may . . . monkey will come. Devotee: Acyutānanda said he was making capatis one day, and there was a little . . . a nail this thin especially to keep the monkeys out, holding the door closed. So he heard a sound outside and thought somebody was coming, and, sure enough, the nail was lifted up by the string, and a monkey popped in, got his cāpāṭis and ran. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are very clever. Himāvatī: But after all, they're human beings also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Monkey is the last species of life before being promoted to the human being. There are three animals: monkey and cow and tiger . . . lion. Yes. Haṁsadūta: When that promotion comes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are not immediately born into a society like American or . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. Uncivilized, just like aborigine. Haṁsadūta: Aborigines, negroes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Human species. Then gradually they become born in civilized . . . Haṁsadūta: It must be very difficult to actually get a birth in a civilized society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. Therefore it is said, labdhvā sudurlabham ( SB 11.9.29). It is very rare, now, especially to take birth in India in the Vedic society. India means within this planet, the civilized Aryan family. Now Āryan families have degraded. Otherwise, Āryan means progressive. So all over the world the Āryan families, they have degraded. Otherwise, the Vedic civilization was Āryan civilization. Devotee: Some places they recognize that. When we went to one meeting in Bombay . . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The Europeans and Americans, they belong to Āryan family. They have lost their Vedic culture. Now it is being revived again. Revatīnandana: They came from those renegade kings that ran away from Paraśurāma? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many reasons. *Revatīnandana: Is it also true that the Scandinavians come from . . . kaṁsa*-nisūdana was telling me that the Scandinavians . . . the name Scandinavia came from Skandha, god of war, and that these people were driven out of India by the Hindu society. They were worshipers of Skandha, and they took shelter in northern Europe? *Prabhupāda: Maybe. Actually Āryan civilization was Central Asia. Some of them went towards India and some of them went towards Europe. Indo*-European stock, that is called. Revatīnandana: Central Asia. Prabhupāda: Central Asia. Caucasian. Kaśyapa . . . Kaśyapa Muni's place. Haṁsadūta: How come they're so white? Prabhupāda: The Āryans are white. But here, this side, due to climatic influence, they are a little tanned. Indians are tan, but they are not black. But Āryans are all white. And the non-Āryans, they are called black. Yes. Devotee: They use the term "Caucasian" to designate those persons who . . . Prabhupāda: Not only Europeans. The Kashmir side of this Afghanistan, Baluchistan and Punjab, they are all white. Devotee: Caucasaus Mountains is near Afghanistan. Prabhupāda: Yes. All white. In Punjab, you'll find, they are as white as Europeans. Oh, yes. Kashmir. Himāvatī: Also in . . . (indistinct) . . . and they're tall. Prabhupāda: Tall. So Āryan family, whole Āryans, they are white. And śūdras are called kṛṣṇa , kṛṣṇa , black. Yes. Revatīnandana: But the śūdras have handsome bodily features also. In Amritsar the people have, I think, handsome bodily features. Prabhupāda: Yes, Āryan family, the structure of body . . . from the . . . there is a science called physiognomy. No? Yes. So it can be ascertained. But we have to forget all these material . . . we have to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "This is white skin . . ." So you have all taken your bath? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, give me little oil. I shall also take bath. Devotee: What to do about a massage? Prabhupāda: Do. Do it. (end) Conversation -- December 4, 1970, Indore Devotee (1): (indistinct) . . . even after . . . (indistinct) . . . Maharishi will be gone . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) If they had a parent . . . (indistinct) . . . very wealthy parent. Revatīnandana: People come on Sunday like this. Devotee (1): I know, I lived in Chicago he became very famous. Prabhupāda: He has becomes famous in India. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not in New York. You see? Devotee (1): (indistinct) . . . he came here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Here? Revatīnandana: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . he said that the bees are very intelligent. A divine form of bees . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is Kaṁsa's business. Always thinking of how to kill Kṛṣṇa. Rāvaṇa's business. Always thinking of how to kill Rāma. Therefore they are demons and anyone following the principles is a demon. How to kill God and make atheism prominent in his place. The present endeavor of the human society is like that. They like Buddhism as you call—there is no question of God. Therefore some of them like Buddhism. The same demonism. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: But in a pollute form. That's all. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Buddhism, Jainism, yoga , all this Vedānta they are all demons. Under different name they called it. The main purpose is to throw away God and become God himself, that's all. Mātājī: Can you explain Jainism? Prabhupāda: Jainism is like Buddhism. Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā —non*-violence. Outside of the . . . (indistinct) . . . that's called this man is put into trouble. But even in that troubled condition—it is not trouble for him. Even if it is trouble but he does not forget Kṛṣṇa. That is mistaken. Haṁsadūta: So the yogīs are always thinking that this world is too much trouble and they want to go out? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa or the devotees has no such plan. Go out or go in it doesn't matter. We want to serve. That's all. Haṁsadūta: In the *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* . . . (indistinct) . . . says that, "The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete and everything emanates from Him is also complete in itself. And because He is the Complete Whole He remains the Complete Balance." So does it mean that for a devotee, a pure devotee. Everything that is going on either in this world or in the spiritual world is part of the Personality of Godhead. Is part of His personality. Is that a fact? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Is part of? Haṁsadūta: It is called a personality, in other words he can take everything personally. Prabhupāda: Who? Haṁsadūta: The devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He accepts everything on a personal basis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That boy in New Vrindavan, busy bee. Haṁsadūta: Who? Prabhupāda: Busy bee. Haṁsadūta: Busy bee? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: I've never met him but I have heard about him. I've never met him. Prabhupāda: (laughs). They call him busy bee. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: A busy bee being there is very nice. Being attached to a nitya*-siddha . Haṁsadūta: Whose Nit . . .? *Prabhupāda: Nitya*-siddha . *Haṁsadūta: Who is Nitya*-siddha ? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . appears. In any circumstances he does not forget Jagannātha. He is child and he does not forget Jagannātha. Revatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. A child and he does not care for his toys. He is fully engaged only in Jagannātha. Wherever he sits down, he puts some you know base and puts Jagannātha and makes some sweets and caraṇāmṛta and some flower. He has all . . . (indistinct) . . . very good attachment for Jagannātha worship. Haṁsadūta: It appears to me that this child is based on its very beginning in the house of a Vaiṣṇava or in the company and he bound to turn out to be a pure devotee. It seems to be total attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Rest . . . restless child means very intelligent child. Haṁsadūta: Restless? Prabhupāda: A child who is very restless, or he seems to be, is understood to be very intelligent. But the father and mother does not know how to capture it. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Otherwise the sign is restlessness, means he is very intelligent . . . (indistinct) . . . don't you see life of Kṛṣṇa? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: How much restless He? Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mother Yaśodā (laughs) Yaśodāmayī (laughs). This is . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Before we were devotees I was living in a . . . (indistinct) . . . with Dvārkādīśa and his mother. And sometimes we would have kīrtana . He would chant, he would always be very happy, he'd run around and he would always chant, he liked it very much. Prabhupāda: That boy? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . He was always absorbed in his maya. He was never much . . . (indistinct) . . . I think he was attached after Jagannātha that same tendency . . . (indistinct) . . . he was like that always . . . (indistinct) . . . for a long time. Prabhupāda: So they were that morning Sun or a different? Revatīnandana: Well it's not morning Sun . . . (indistinct) . . . New Mexico. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: After morning chānā , morning chānā was Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa and . . . (indistinct) . . . morning . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Mexico . . . (indistinct) . . . in New Mexico there also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I was, I, I went there. Revatīnandana: You went there, I know. I heard about that . . . I think after you had gone. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I went there. The organizer Mr . . .? Devotee (1): Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Godly? Devotee (1): Harir Gadhi. Prabhupāda: Harir. He took me there. Devotee (1): Crazy man (laughter) Prabhupāda: I held kīrtana there. You remember? Haṁsadūta: Ah, yes. He also wrote . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . really? I think Bhakta Rūpa was living in that place at one time. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . Dāmodara? Revatīnandana: This is . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva's wife was there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . apologized . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Possibly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: But you cannot have home here. Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. So why you bother about this temporary home? Rather do some hard work for going back to home, back to Godhead. That should be taken. Actually you have no home. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Just as if . . . (indistinct) . . . at any time. Prabhupāda: Eh? And why should we bother about home? It is not possible. That: tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido ( SB 1.5.18). *Bhāgavata says that you cry for that thing which is not available by wandering from Brahmaloka down to the Pātāla*-loka. Actually wondering perpetually and you do not know why you are wandering, why you are changing your dress and I am called eternal. Why it is in this diseased condition? They do not think like that. Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just like a foolish patient he is suffering. He is thinking he is all right. "It is all right." Yes there are so many diseased fellows, they don't take seriously the disease. They maybe all right. Similarly this is a disease to change body one after another. But they are . . . they do not know what to do and if they know, "All right, disease is all right." This is knowledge. So you can begin ārati . (break) So business means you are want to earn money. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And what you will do with money? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Come here, come here . . . what you will do with money? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sit down. Do you think you can help the poor? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): This material . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How many poor men you can feed? Devotee (2): Not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then? Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . kīrtana . Prabhupāda: There are so many institutions, the problem of poor is solved? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All over the world there are hundreds and thousands of institutions for giving enlightenment but there are millions and millions of poor men still. How do you think, that it will be solved? Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can do but the problem will be not solved. That is my consideration. You do your best but the problem will not be solved. There are the whole.. You are thinking because you are maunānīhānilāyāmā (SB 11.18.17) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. You are . . . (indistinct) . . . poor therefore you are thinking that I shall be able to do something to my . . . but these American boy, they are the richest country. They have not solved this problem. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . solve the problem. Prabhupāda: They are in it. You see if the problem is not solved then your aim of life is not very solid. You say that after earning money, "I shall try to solve this problem." Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Individually or collectively. In USA in the universities they are well equipped, very big, big buildings and nothing is wanted. But they are producing all confused students. In England there is a scarcity of educated laborers. They are no more interested even for education. The young boy. So in England especially I have seen, they have to employ so many Indians for high respectable posts. In London the civil officer, or civil servant is a Bengali gentleman. That means they are finding difficulty in having their own men for responsible posts. They are no more. They are no more interested for education. They are so much disappointed. Although there is free education, free medical help, in England. People are still not satisfied. So that is not possible. You cannot make the people of the world happy by your plan. People can be happy only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my point. So you ask your father to spare this house for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will become a prominent secretary. To preach this cult here. (aside) Why you are going? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: People are . . . eh? Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa comes by kāruṇika . Ye to bohot din se hai. (This has been present since a long time.) Devotee (3): Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Ye to Bhagavad Gita me jaise bataya hai . . . (This is as described in Bhagavad Gītā . . .) that Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1), vivasvate imaṁ yogaṁ Ye yoga, Bhagavad Gita jo pehle . . . Suryaloka pe jo raja hai, Vivasvan unko bataya hai. To wo to . . . (This yoga , Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken to Vivasvān, the king of the Sun-planet. So that is . . .) Devotee (3): Nahi, ye discipline jo apne shuru ki hai . . . (No, this discipline that you have started . . .) Prabhupāda: Ye jo char hai . . . (These four which are there . . .) Devotee (3): (indistinct Hindi) . . . Iske pehle bhi kuch . . . (indistinct) . . . (Before this was there . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha iske pehle Caitanya Mahāprabhu, uske pehle Kṛṣṇa. (Yes, before this Caitanya Mahāprabhu, before that Kṛṣṇa.) Himself. Devotee (3): Ye activity, ye movement abhi apne char sal pehle . . . (This activity, this movement was started by you 4 years back . . .) Prabhupāda: Shuru kiya tha humara . . . (It was started by my . . .) Guru Mahārāja. But it has come into prominence since 4 or 5 years . . . Abhi kya padhta hai? (What are you studying now?) Devotee (3): B.A final Prabhupāda: B.A final that's nice. What is your subject? Devotee (3): Economics, political science . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I had also economics in my day. Economics and philosophy. And philosophy. Devotee (3): Pardon? Prabhupāda: And philosophy. Devotee (3): Philosophy also. Prabhupāda: No I took. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Economics and philosophy. Metaphysics, psychology, ethics. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you read all those western philosophers, like Descartes and Hume and Kant. Did you not read them? What did you think? Prabhupāda: No, I read, Kant says like this . . . (indistinct) . . . says like this, theory. My professor Dr. Urquhart he was a staunch Christian. He was talking the Bible also. He did not believe in karma. Christians cannot believe in karma because after this life finished there is no more life. Is it not? Devotee (2): No future life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): They generally say . . . there is no rebirth. Prabhupāda: So, there is no karma ? Revatīnandana: It's either heaven or hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . either you go to heaven or you go to hell forever. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is all right. Because hell means you again glide down to the cycle of birth and death and that is hell. And heaven means to promote yourself to the kingdom of God. In that sense it is all right. You take one chance, human form of life, so you can make this life utilized either for going back to home, or again you come down to the repetition of birth and death. That is hell. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In that sense it is nice. Revatīnandana: The difference is that they say once you have gone down . . . Prabhupāda: It is not very explicit. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the rudimentary idea is there. Either hell or heaven. It is a choice. You make your choice for heaven or you make your choice for hell. That we say also. Mānuṣaṁ durlabhaṁ . . . tad apy arthadam adhruvam (SB 7.6.1). It is very rare life, although it will be finished but it can give you the greatest benediction. So we should take that benediction otherwise you go to hell . . . Kya ye thik nahi hai? Nahi. (Is it not correct? No.) (pause) Can economics science help a man to improve his economic condition? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But there are many instances that a man tries for better life, throughout the whole life. But sometimes it is not successful. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . on condition. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: And sometimes it is found that a man, especially in Marwari community. They do not know any economics education . . . (indistinct) . . . and they earn and millions and millions. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (laughs) why it has been so? He never went to college to study economics but he knows so nice how to utilize economics. There are many amongst Marwari and they cannot find even a chair but millionaire. They earn money. Yes . . . my point is that even if you don't study economics you can become very rich man. There are many instances. Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: So why should you waste your time in that? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Tal*-labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ (SB 1.5.18 Bhāgavata says that, just like duḥkha , duḥkha means—distress. If you're destined to suffer some distress even if you don't try for it—it will come. Similarly if you're destined to have some profit, if you don't try for it it will come. Nobody tries for distress, why does it come? Therefore the natural conclusion should be, even if I don't try for economic development. If I am destined it will come. Therefore I should. Save my energy for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is right conclusion. I should save energy for. Collect all energy that is in my possession for utilization in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So far distress and happiness is concerned whatever it may come, that is all right. Either distress or happiness, don't mind. Bhaja budam tattvavit , you understand Sanskrit? Budam is . . . (indistinct) . . . let this happen. I am not concerned with that, let it happen. I'm concerned with the develop my Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Pitaji ka kya idea hai? (What is your father's idea?) Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: About this song. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And for us? Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . taken a flat in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): He's taken a flat in Bombay. And . . . (indistinct) . . . buy the flat in Bombay . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kidhar rehta hai Bombay me? (Where does he stay in Bombay?) Devotee (3): Apollo Bunder Prabhupāda: Bori Bunder Devotee (3): Nahi, Apollo Bunder. (No, Apollo Bunder.) Prabhupāda: Apollo Bunder! Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Nice . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . Apollo Bunder is the first*-class spot. Devotee (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is very respectable part. They are planning in their own way . . . (break) . . . office. He has been given to copy affairs, rough account book to make a copy. So he's doing. Now after some time he is in the, what is called? Toilet room. So the boss saw that he was in the toilet room two hours ago and again he is still. So he became angry. "Ah this man is always in the toilet room. What he is . . . ?" He asked him, "What you are doing here? I saw you two hours ago." "Sir I am finding out one fly." "Fly. Why?" "Sir in the rough account book there is a fly pressed there. So I'll have to do that." (laughter). So it will be difficulty (laughter). To catch this fly. (laughter). Whole day . . . (laughter) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you are excellent copies. Please go on and don't enjoy the (laughter) text reply (laughter). Sabarmati, you did not hear this study? It is very interesting. Machi mara clerk. (Fly killing clerk.) (laughter). Mātājī: Fly killing clerk? *Prabhupāda: Clerk. Clerk engaged in killing a fly. (laughter). One of our class friends (laughs). Yes, the Professor, Dr. Kalidasnath he dictated, "Roman one." And some dictators. Some history notes that is in our higher*-class. So one of our class friends in the examination he has also written, "Roman one." "Roman one" means this 1. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. But he has written, "Roman one," and exactly the word. "Roman one," 1, 2, exactly he wanted. He didn't have experience. So after the examination over, so (laughs) Dr Kalidas, he saw that this boy has simply crammed. He . . . So where is Mr. Womanwant so he could not understand Woman want (laughs). Then it was explained that he had so nicely crammed the whole. He had written "Roman one," "Roman one." Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. And our . . . one of our teachers he was also . . . he told us one story in that class. At that time there was no electric fan. Electric fan, so there was hand driven fan. Big, big . . . When and by . . . (indistinct) . . .? Pully, pully? Haṁsadūta: Pulley. Prabhupāda: Yes. Servant was engaged. So some professor, English professor. In those days all the professors were English. This is statement of my teacher. So he might have said, punkha khicho. (pull the fan.) Punkha means fan, khicho means pull on. The servant was a little flat, so the prof . . . the punkha khicho was go on with the fan. So in the notebook also . . . he has written punkha khicho, (pull the fan,) . . . then when he was comparing with other class friends. "Hey what is this? Punkha khicho. (Pull the fan.)" (laughs). And so there are many instances like that. Not known, Pradyumna has written, not known but somebody has written. So he has also composed, not known. He had no . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That if it is not to be mentioned. Not known. Don't try for any page number but he has written, "not known." Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The same punkha khicho. (pull the fan.) That means this mechanical worker they are senseless. They do not use their senses. Less intelligent. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . yes. Gaḍurikā*-pravāha-nyāya. (One man is doing and the other man is simply following.) (break) Dictaphone and I am getting an impression. So if I hear about it I can get the same impression. So knowledge about this microphone, either I see or hear—it has the same balance. Haṁsadūta: But by, by seeing it . . . Prabhupāda: Just like suppose if you see some friend that he is such and such. His body is useless. Similarly the same description is given to you, you hear it, so the impression is not the same? Haṁsadūta: Yes, some of the time. Prabhupāda: But on the other hand all your senses are imperfect. So any impression you get by these senses they are imperfect. By exercising your senses, whatever knowledge . . . Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Independently. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever knowledge you gather that is imperfect. Either you see . . . but foolish people they give more stress on seeing. He does not know my seeing is also imperfect. That is his position. He wants to gives stress on seeing but he is ignorant that his seeing power is also defective. What he will do by seeing? Just like Lord Caitanya when He was in Benares. Benares, Sanātana Gosvāmī came he asked, "Please give me a host. There is a Vaiṣṇava bring him here." And Sanātana Gosvāmī was more than a month, he was walking on the . . . on foot. He has no nice dress and there was hair, moustaches. And this Candraśekhara Ācārya came back, "Oh I didn't see any Vaiṣṇava there." "So there is no man?" "Yes there is a man but he is a . . . he appears to be a Muslim." So what is the value of his seeing? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu is seeing him, Vaiṣṇava. He is seeing him as a Muslim. It's clear? So what is the father seeing, that hearing is power . . . most important. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that he is a Vaiṣṇava. That is most powerful. By seeing he could not understand a Vaiṣṇava. But by hearing he had actual appreciation of Sanātana. But hearing from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that is the point. Therefore knowledge, hearing from authorized persons is all perfect. Not by seeing, not by touching, not by licking, not by tasting. No. Anyway you lose your senses to get real experience, its defect. But if you simply hear from the right authority that is perfect. That is our profit going. Our profit of knowledge therefore perfect. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We are hearing from Kṛṣṇa—about Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge of God is perfect. We are not perfect but our knowledge is perfect because we are hearing from the Supreme Perfect. They do not understand. "So this man is like me imperfect, how he can say, 'perfect knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, or God.'" That they cannot understand. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: This description is śruti*-pramāṇa , therefore as soon as there is evidence in the śruti , Vedas . According to Vedic system it is accepted, perfect. Revatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . was making yogurt. He had some milk that he had boiled and there was a bag on the table, a plastic bag . . . (indistinct) . . . and a thick white substance . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's suns, then why so many combination of suns cannot make the night day? Haṁsadūta: They will say it is too far away. Prabhupāda: Eh? Even if it is too far away so many suns. Devotee (1): And all of them bigger than ours. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . takes light and breaks it into it's respective colors. Prabhupāda: Hm. Revatīnandana: And you get from each Star a little different spectrum . . . (indistinct) . . . spectrum is different . . . (indistinct) . . . different saw, different chemical arrangement made in Hawaii. They have sun. But when he told me then I could understand . . . (indistinct) . . . they have different types of mirrors. Each mirror reflects the light a little differently. Prabhupāda: We have got authority from Kṛṣṇa. He says: nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī (Bg 10.21). *So this stars are just like moons, the light is reflected. If compared to the moon, why not in the star? He could have said, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁsūrya . He has not said. So I cannot take the so*-called scientists more authoritative than Kṛṣṇa. Our method is simple, we can challenge anyone, by hearing from Kṛṣṇa . . . and so many millions of suns they cannot make the . . . and one sun makes the . . . so brilliant that all other planes or so-called suns are covered. They cannot be seen even. Revatīnandana: It was a good lesson because I was attached to that theory. Prabhupāda: Eh? There are many. Revatīnandana: Then I had to detach, once I was detached I could see that either way would make sense. But . . . (indistinct) . . . the Vedic authority . . . (indistinct) . . . light . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation A Hindi -- December 5, 1970, Indore Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda has been speaking at the Gita Bhavan in Indore and this is the 2nd morning that he has spoken. Prabhupāda: Renunciation and knowledge automatically follow bhakti . Guest: Devotees do not need to try for knowledge and renuniation, these things are acquired automatically for them. *Prabhupāda: That is what . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is the vairāgya*-vān Just like renunciant ( vairāgya-vān ), and scholar ( jñānī ), śūdra : *It does not make any difference that somebody is a householder, somebody is sannyāsī . Someone is a brāhmin , someone is a śūdra —these things are not there in bhakti*-mārga . Whoever knows Kṛṣṇa, understands this science, he is a guru : yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā , tattva-vettā , kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā , he is a guru . In our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya , the idea that one will be great by becoming a brāhmin and sannyāsī is not there. Though it is a social idea. But bhagavat-bhakti . . . Guest: What will you take now? Prabhupāda: What? *(aside) There is not, no coffee . . . (indistinct) . . . I simply want, we will all go together with chanting Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Guest: In Ahmedabad, 5 to 6 strangers were dancing. Whenever 15 ser butter was being brought, whoever got it on their heads, they ate every bite of it. Jeldi kaldo malayo usane . Everyday there had a discourse on the life of Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: Good . . . (indistinct) Guest: (indistinct) . . . still they do not understand. Prabhupāda: They will understand, by constant hearing they will understand. Guest: They will understand by constant hearing. Still in their minds . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That will also happen by constant hearing. Guest: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Paraṁ vijayate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam (CC. Antya 20.12). The dirt on the mirror of the mind will all be washed away by constant hearing saṅkīrtana . So this is the process. Somehow or other he should be in saṅkīrtana . Then everything will be all right. First class. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . one who is inquisitive goes to guru , sādhu guru . Kṛṣṇa. One does not need to go to sādhu guru for asking, "What is the market price of this commodity? What is this thing? Or this fellow is sick so what is its medicine?" No. For this, he has to go to a physician. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Topmost. Topmost subject. The topmost subject is, the topmost subject uttama*-viṣayā means udgata tama . The worldly subject matters are the tama subject, tamasi mā , tamasi mā . Tamasic (ignorance). What would happen with these worldly materialistic questions surrounding the political state of affairs, what will happen to us? These are not questions. These are moral questions. The topmost question is, the topmost question is, not the political or materialistic, only bhagavat subject. Topmost. Guest: Not mine. Prabhupāda: What? Guest: Not mine. Prabhupāda: Not mine. Yes. Not mineness but transcendental. Guru is needed for that inquiry. If he is eager to understand that higher thing then he needs guru . Otherwise one does not need guru . Guru is not something that you have a guru by fashion. No. Scriptures say: "No, then you do not need guru ". You are not prepared for inquirying topmost subject. Therefore you do not need guru now. Guest: We think that by having a guru , we reach to Vaikuṇṭha. By having this guru . . . Prabhupāda: For going Vaikuṇṭha only, one has to have a guru . But guru should also understand Vaikuṇṭha. And the disciple should also be really eager to go to Vaikuṇṭha, and nothing else. Then it is all right. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Back to home. Back to Godhead . That is why we kept the title of our magazine— Back to Godhead . Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: This path of devotion is . . . without knowledge one can not perform bhakti . Just see, the meaning of bhakti is bhagavat*-bhajana . If he does not know God, then how can he do bhagavat-bhajana ? Where is the question of . . . if you do not know who the God is then where is bhagavat-bhajana ? And to understand who the God is requires much knowledge. But there is not a single university. How much knowledge is required just to understand a materialistic thing? Much knowledge is needed to become a lawyer, and to understand God, God says: Despite being pure, very few people understand God. So how much knowledge is needed to understand God? Without being a jñānī , how will he understand God? And without understanding God, what is bhakti ? It is not bhakti , it is sentiment. Bhakti is practical. Just like Arjuna is addressed by God as— bhakto ' si . Arjuna was not a sentimental person. He was practically a warrior, a kṣatriya . So bhakti is not a sentiment, a feeling no. It is practical. Guest: But by bhakti can we not . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? But bhakti is practical. Guest: . . . knowledge. Through process of bhakti can we not understand? Prabhupāda: No. One who is not jñānī can not reach to the stage of bhakti . Therefore, there are 9 Canto's in Bhāgavatam to reach to the stage of bhakti; *just to understand who the God is. The professional bhagavat reciters readily jump to rasa*-lila in 10th Canto by leaving aside the 9 Canto's. They have not understood God, what will they understand about God’s rasa-lila ? The process is . . . there are 9 Cantos, beginning with: janmādy asya yataḥ , just to understand who the God is. It means beginning from Vedānta . The knowledge of God begins from Vedānta . This is the thing. *Guest: Then what about Vedānta bhakti*-mārga ? Prabhupāda: What? *Guest: All Vedas are towards bhakti*-mārga . Prabhupāda: Yes: vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo (BG 15.15). What is the meaning of Veda ? To understand God. So by reading Veda , scriptures, following Vedānta , one who has correctly understood God, bhakti is for him. But he has not understood God, what is God? "Everybody is God, I am God, he is God." Such person has not understood God. How does he know bhakti ? It is meaningless. Guest: So Veda means knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge. Full knowledge. What is Kṛṣṇa? Guest: But then people who are ignorant . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . and who have no capacity to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Then they are not up . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not up. If, if actually they are serious then Kṛṣṇa from within will give him knowledge. God is saying: *Unto those who are doing bhagavat*-bhajana according to scriptural injunctions by the order of Guru , with love: prīti-pūrvakam , buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ . God Himself gives them intelligence. And elsewhere: God is residing in your hearts. When you are serious, when you are serious to understand Him, You can not cheat Him. And as soon as you receive within the ear, actually for Him, then He will give you knowledge. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That’s also. We want to be serious: prīti*-pūrvakam , bhajatāṁ . God is prīti (love). Keep God and no interest in anything else. Guest: Only devotion to Him . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . with Lord. Prabhupāda: God understands that whether you got prīti for him or through His media you have got prīti (for) something else. That is not difficult for Him to understand. He is cleverer than anyone. Guest: (laughing) who gives the knowledge for . . . (indistinct) *Guest (2): That is only the vyabhicāreṇa*-bhakti . *Prabhupāda: Avyabhicāreṇa*-bhakti . *If one has worldly aspirations through medium of God, then it is karma . "I want to become one with a nirvisesa Brahman through medium of God" then it has become jñāna . So jñāna*-karma-anāvṛtam . So it should be free from jñāna and karma . It should not be contaminated with jñāna and karma . Pure bhakti . What is pure bhakti ? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ , doing bhagavat-bhajana favourably. How will God be satisfied? Just like gopīs, they did not care jñāna and karma . They simply wanted how Lord Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. This is vṛndāvana-bhāva . Yaśodāmayī. *Guest: Viraha*-bhāva . Prabhupāda: What? *Guest: Viraha*-bhāva . Prabhupāda: Viraha or whatever it is, their only feeling is how our Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Jñānam . Be it vatsalya*-bhāva or sakhya-bhāva . . . (indistinct) . . . there is vatsalya-bhāva . Everyone’s wish is to see how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That’s all. It is not like how I will be happy through Kṛṣṇa. That is kāma . Through Kṛṣṇa we will fulfill our purpose. That is lust. It is called lust. And we have no purpose but how Kṛṣṇa will be happy. That is love. This is the difference between lust and love. So there needs love, not lust. Lust also . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody wants to fulfill his desires, then God will fulfill. For Him there is no difficulty. But that is not pure bhakti . That is not pure bhakti . Guest: They have sin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right, that has been accepted. *They are not called pure devotees, they are called su*-kṛtino . Those who have desires for kama-siddhi , jñāna-siddhi or jijñāsā-siddhi through the medium of God, they are not called pure devotees. They are called pious. Su-kṛtino means pious. Because one who is mahā-pāpī (very sinful), he will not come to God. But these people have come to God for asking something That means they are pious, because they have come to God. While going to God they must get some status. So these four— ārto arthārthī jijñāsur , and jñānī —those who are in distress, those who want money, those who are inquisitive, and jñānī —have come to God and so they are pious. Guest: Want purī or kulcha ? Prabhupāda: No. I want kulcha only. Mātājī: Want kulcha , then it is all right. Prabhupāda: You want to take purī ? All right, give him purī . Mātājī: Kulcha is being prepared slowly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes give purī . Guest: Capātī is there, take it. Prabhupāda No, purī , purī . Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda Yes. Jñānī*-devotees , just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī—a jñānī-bhakta . *Guest: Jñānī*-bhakta . Prabhupāda: One who becomes a devotee after being a jñānī will be a pakka bhakta . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? Oh yes certainly. The purpose of knowledge is to understand God. One who has understood God and has engaged himself in service of God is better than a jñānī . Jñānī is simply trying to understand God. But this one has already engaged in service. One is applying for Government service, and the other has already engaged in Government service. So who is better? Guest: One who has engaged. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Bhakti is stronger than knowledge. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? But knowledge will be there by having bhakti . For a pure devotee.., For example you want to do a business to acquire 1 crore rupees, and if somehow you have acquired 1 crore rupees , then it includes 10 lakhs . Similarly if you have become a devotee, then it includes knowledge. Guest: That was the point I was asking in the beginning. *Prabhupāda Yes, therefore the Bhāgavatam says vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7) If one is engaged in devotion to Lord Vāsudeva, then: He gradually acquires jñāna and vairagya . Ahaituki . No purpose. To acquire simple knowledge one has to read and hear a lot. One has to read Veda , Vedānta etc. But if one has become a bhakta . . . (indistinct) The Guru of our Guru Mahārāja did not know how to write even his name. And our Guru Mahārāja . . . at that time nobody was a scholar like him, and he accepted him as his guru . Why? He was speaking Veda , Vedānta . So he was: svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (CC Madhya 17.136), yasya deve parā bhaktir . *One would be familiar with all such knowledge by having bhagavat*-bhakti . He is not bereft of knowledge. God Himself says: teṣām evānukampārtham . Who is a better jñānī than one to whom God gives knowledge by His mercy? Our knowledge is through hearing you or him, but he is hearing from God Himself. See, who will be a better jñānī than him? Guest: Practical knowledge. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: For a devotee, a pure devotee, he is not bereft of knowledge. Have you understood? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: God Himself is making him jñānī . Guest: "By remembering Me", it is said in *Gītā* , "By remembering Me". *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is there in buddhi*-yoga . God gives him intelligence. And to whom God gives knowledge, who will be a better jñānī —(intelligent) than him? Bhakti is all inclusive. And the knowledge on God includes knowledge on Brahman and knowledge on Paramātmā. *Tattva , tattva , the Absolute Truth. Absolute Truth is nondual. And that Absolute Truth is Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, these things are non*-dual substance ( advaita-jñāna tattva ). Brahman, Paramātmā *Knowledge. Knowledge. Brahma*-jñāna , after that paramātmā-jñāna , after that bhagavat-jñāna . One who has bhagavat-jñāna has brahma-jñāna and paramātmā-jñāna . One who has only brahma-jñāna does not have bhagavat-jñāna . One who has paramātmā-jñāna also does not have bhagavat-jñāna . *Guest: Brahma*-jñāna . What is the meaning of brahma-jñāna ? *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-jñāna means like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun (big). But both of them are light. Guest: (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: He thinks that this ordinary light is bigger, and considers the source of this light to be smaller. Guest: (indistinct) . . . correct . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Brahma niṣkalam ananta . They consider the infinite impersonal Brahman to be the biggest, and consider the source from which it comes to be smaller. *Guest: Just like Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda Knowledge This knowledge— brahma*-jñāna . *Guest: (indistinct) . . . bhagavat*-jñāna. *Prabhupāda Brahma*-jñāna , paramātmā-jñāna . Paramātmā-jñāna is for yogī , and brahma-jñāna is for jñānī . and for devotees it is bhagavat-jñāna . So Bhagavān, Brahman, Paramātmā. Guest: Are they different stages? Prabhupāda: What? Guest: Are they different stages? *Prabhupāda: Different features. Different features. Just like sun-planet, sun-god and sun-light. Sun-light is brahma-jñāna , and sun-planet is paramātmā-jñāna , and sun*-god is bhagavat-jñāna . Guest: Very good. I see. *Prabhupāda: All three are one. One only, but has different stages. So first stage is brahma*-jñāna . *Brahma*-bhūta : brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). *He is very distressed due to inebrities of this world, and after acquiring brahma*-jñāna he is happy: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā . The soul has become happy. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . He is liberated. Guest: Then comes second. *Prabhupāda Then second. Paramātmā. Then bhagavat*-jñāna. Guest: (indistinct) . . . it is the same thing as removing 1, and . . . Prabhupāda: Zero remains. This is what is happening. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Only zero. Just eat zeros. This is all. And here it is working, so zero is discarded and only Kṛṣṇa is taken up. 1 is taken up, all zeros are discarded. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). All that in the name of religion without God is called kaitava-dharma . Cheating. Guest: Cheating. *Prabhupāda: Cheating. In his notes, commentary, Śrīdhara Svāmī: atra mokṣa*-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo; *kaitava*-dharma says, this liberated who says I will be liberated, will become one with God, he has also become nirasta . And this is bhakti , which is jñāna-karma-anāvṛtam , there is no tinge of contamination of jñāna and karma . It is pure. Guest: (some sounds) who is that? slowly slowly. *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu . Only with favourable devotion: kṛṣṇānu-śīlanaṁ . That is pure bhakti . And in Nārada-bhakti-sūtra : anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karma . . . eh? No, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ . Free from all designations. All these designations that I am sannyāsī , I am brāhmin , these are also upâdhis . "I am Parsi, I am Hindu, I am Christian", these are all designations. So: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ , when one is free from all these designations, tat-paratvena nirmalam , only with bhagavat-bhāva , pure. At that time the situation you are in . . . then: At that time the service you are rendering with your purified senses to the master of the senses, hṛṣīkeśa , is called bhakti . As long as these designations are there that, "I am a family member, I look after this, this is my responsibility, this and that", he is not free from designations. Guest: It is difficult to give up . . . Prabhupāda: Yes it is difficult but there is no way. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi . When I went to Europe and America for preaching bhagavat*-bhakti , if I had upādhi that I have to preach this Hindu-dharma then it would not have been successful. This is full with upādhi; "I identify myself to be a Hindu". Yes. Then there is . . . not accepted. They say we got Christinity why should I accept your religion. Instead, Kṛṣṇa is presented, free from all designation. That is why it is successful. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. If you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism. They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism or Mohammedanism. We are talking on the science of God. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh they have accepted that. "Yes, here is the right concept." Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes back to God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . I have distributed Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: I shall arrange to distribute, I am getting for 50,000 Back to Godhead . 50,000, I shall distribute. Guest: Telling him that I made it a proper use. That is what I . . . Prabhupāda: You people. We are, sarvopādhi ; Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is free from all designations. Kṛṣṇa. We haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian, as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of these. Kṛṣṇa says, claims that, "Every living entity is my part and parcel, I am the seed giving father". Therefore it has become accepted. I never said that, "You become a Hindu." He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy. What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God? That they are doing. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But here at our place, why Kṛṣṇa is considered as only God? . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore they are puzzled, although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa . . . this is also answered by God: avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). Rascal, donkey. He thinks that Kṛṣṇa is a man, a human being. He has been given a title; he is called jñānī . Guest: Mūḍhā Prabhupāda Mūḍhā means, "Donkey". Guest: (laughter) *Prabhupāda: How does a donkey understand Kṛṣṇa? To understand Kṛṣṇa one needs to have many yoga *-practices. Yatatām api siddhānāṁ (BG 7.3), "One who has gained siddhi will understand Kṛṣṇa." It takes many life times: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). *Otherwise if one becomes rascal, and considers Kṛṣṇa like this then that is jñāna*-upādhi . Why should we waste many lifetimes, if we have to come to Kṛṣṇa only after many lifetimes, then why not we take Kṛṣṇa now? Speaking very important thing. Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There is no question of, "Should be". When Kṛṣṇa says: "I will give you protection", why, "Should be"? You don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says: ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa’s capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): To understand Kṛṣṇa he knows that he is beyond the capacity to understand Him. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says: "I am everything". Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. That is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is a different thing, another stage. That is more confidential. First of all there is surrender. Guest: Surrender. Prabhupāda: First of all you enter this house or this room, then you ask how can I serve you? That is different. First of all there is no surrender, and without surrender—full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa. Guest: No entrance. *Prabhupāda: No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā*-dveṣa samutthena . . . sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27), sarva-yoni . This material world, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Creation. They are all the living entities who have come into this created world they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are given the chance, "All right you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I give you facility. You want to become Brahmā, all right you become Brahmā, and you want to become the worm of stool, as you wish." This is clear. So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing bodies. This is material world. And when comes back again Back to Godhead : Then he has not got to come back. *So we have to prepare for that position. How to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourselves in His service. Then the question is either as mother, as friend or . . . that will be considered latter on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is a condition: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66), "You surrender unto me fully giving up all your other engagements, then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi , mokṣayiṣyāmi is nothing for kṛṣṇa-bhakta; mokṣa or liberation. He is doing, He will look after you. (aside) Ready. All right. *Haṁsadūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda invited Baba Bal*-Mukund and Vairagya Baba and . . . (indistinct) . . . in Bombay and said Sunday and in the lecture, last two lectures recorded in the morning of the 4th and 5th at Gita Bhavan in Indore and . . . (indistinct) . . . speaking was . . . (indistinct) . . . in the room of Baba Bal-Mukund at the Gita Bhavan and just after the lecture on the 5th. Present now with His Divine Grace in Indore just now, Himavatī and Hansadutta and Revatīnandana brahmacārī . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . I am willing . . . (end) HINDI TRANSCRIPTION: हंसदूत: प्रभुपाद जी गीता भवन इंदौर में बोल रहे हैं और यह दूसरा दिन है जब उन्होंने सुबह प्रवचन दिया। प्रभुपाद: भक्ति है तो वैराग्य और ज्ञान हो जाता है। अतिथि: भक्त को ज्ञान वैराग्य नहीं करना है वो तो अपने आप आता है। प्रभुपाद: (अस्पष्ट) कृष्ण ज्ञान वैराग्य। किबा विप्रा, किबा न्यासी, शूद्र केने नय येइ कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेत्ता, सेइ 'गुरु' हया (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य ८.१२८) इसमें कोई फ़र्क नहीं पड़ता है कोई गृहस्थी है, कोई संन्यासी है, कोई ब्राह्मण है, कोई शूद्र है — ये विचार भक्ति मार्ग में नहीं है। यही साइंस सब समझता है — वह गुरु है। यही कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेता, तत्त्व-वेता, कृष्ण-तत्त्व-वेता, वही गुरु है। हमारे वैष्णव-संप्रदाय में ये सब विचार नहीं हैं। ब्राह्मण होने से ही बड़ा हो जाएंगे, संन्यासी होने से — ये सब सामाजिक है। परंतु भगवत भक्ति होने से... अतिथि: क्या लेंगे आप? प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: कॉफी नहीं... खाली इतना ही चाहता हूँ — राधा कृष्णा बोलो साथ में छलकाकर। अतिथि: वहाँ अहमदाबाद में ५-६ अंजान आदमी १५ सेर मठा लाते हैं — वहीं फोड़-फोड़ के खाते हैं। जल्दी कर लो मलयो, उसने हर रोज़ महाप्रभु का — ये कृपा होता है। अतिथि: बहुत अच्छा। अतिथि: तब भी समझते ही नहीं हैं। अतिथि: समझेंगे, समझेंगे। सुनते-सुनते समझेंगे। अतिथि: समझेंगे धीरे-धीरे। अभी उनके मस्तिष्क में... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह भी सुनते-सुनते होगा। अतिथि: हाँ। प्रभुपाद: परं विजयते श्रीकृष्ण-संकीर्तनम् चित्त दर्पण में जो मैल है वो सब निकल जाएगा। शृण्वतां स्वकथाः कृष्णः पुण्य-श्रवण-कीर्तनः हृद्यन्तःस्थो ह्यभद्राणि विधुनोति सुहृत्सताम् (भागवत १.२.१७) यही विधि है — जो किसी तरह कीर्तन में सहयोग करेंगे, सब ठीक हो जाएगा। और क्या है? अतिथि: चैंटिंग जो है — वो बैठ के कराई जाए? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: जैसे यमुना माई... बड़ा मस्त लगता है। प्रभुपाद: ...जो जिज्ञासु है वो गुरु का बात — गुरु, साधु, गुरु। कृष्ण, गुरु, साधु, गुरु के पास जाकर पूछना चाहिए। और ये नहीं है कि बाज़ार के जैसा — इसका क्या भाव है? ये सब पूछने के लिए साधु-गुरु के पास जाने की ज़रूरत नहीं। इसका क्या दवाई है? — बीमार है? नहीं। उसके लिए डॉक्टर के पास जाना चाहिए। अतिथि: ..... प्रभुपाद: नहीं, नहीं, जाओ — उत्तम विषय। उत्तम विषय मतलब उद्गत तम। ये जो दुनिया का विषय है — वो तम है। तमसो मा, तमसो मा — तमसिक। ये दुनिया का भौतिक प्रश्न है। ये जो राजनीतिक परिस्थिति है — इसका क्या होगा? ये जो प्रश्न है — ये भौतिक प्रश्न है। उत्तम प्रश्न, उत्तम प्रश्न — कोई जागृत, कोई भौतिक प्रश्न नहीं — केवल भगवद गीता। अतिथि: मेरे नहीं... प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: मरते नहीं हाँ, मेरे नहीं केवल पर ट्रान्सेंडेंटल। जिज्ञासा — इसलिए गुरु का ज़रूरत है, जो कि वो अप्राकृत वस्तु को समझाने के लिए प्रकट हुए। इसलिए गुरु का ज़रूरत है। नहीं तो गुरु का कोई ज़रूरत नहीं है। गुरु कोई ऐसी चीज़ नहीं है जो गुरु बना गया शौक़ से — नहीं। शास्त्र में तुम्हारा गुरु का ज़रूरत नहीं है, तुम्हारा उत्तम विषय में प्रश्न करने के लिए तैयार नहीं है तो तुम्हारा गुरु का ज़रूरत नहीं है। अतिथि: बहुत लोग ये सोचते हैं — गुरु करके वैकुण्ठ में चले जाएंगे, इसलिए गुरु चाहिए। प्रभुपाद: वैकुण्ठ में जाने के लिए गुरु करना चाहिए। परंतु गुरु भी वैकुण्ठ को समझने वाला हो और शिष्य भी वास्तव में वैकुण्ठ में ही जाना चाहता है — और कुछ नहीं — तब ठीक है। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ — Back to Home, "बैक टू गॉडहेड। इसलिए हम लोग पत्रिका का नाम रखा है "बैक टू गॉडहेड। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: भक्ति मार्ग जो है न — बिना ज्ञान के भक्ति नहीं होती। देखिए, भक्ति का अर्थ होता है भगवत भजन। भगवान का जो ज्ञानी है — तो भगवत धर्म क्या होगा? जो चीज़ आपको मालूम ही नहीं है — भगवान क्या चीज़ है — तो उसका भजन आप क्या करेंगे? और भगवत क्या चीज़ है — समझने के लिए काफ़ी ज्ञान की ज़रूरत है। एक भी यूनिवर्सिटी नहीं है — एक भौतिक वस्तु को समझने के लिए कितना ज्ञान की ज़रूरत होती है? एक वकील बनने के लिए कितना ज्ञान की ज़रूरत होती है? और भगवान को समझने...? और भगवान कहते हैं: मनुष्याणां सहस्रेषु कश्चिद् यतति सिद्धये यतताम् अपि सिद्धानां कश्चिन् मां वेत्ति तत्त्वतः (भगवद गीता ७.३) प्रभुपाद: शुद्ध होते हुए भी कोई-कोई भगवान को समझता है। वो भगवान को समझने के लिए कितना ज्ञान का ज़रूरत है। बिना ज्ञानी हुए कैसे भगवान को समझेंगे? कैसे? और भगवान को बिना समझे भक्ति कैसे होगी? भक्ति कोई भावुकता नहीं है — भक्ति प्रैक्टिकल है। अर्जुन को भक्तों सी। अर्जुन कोई भावुक नहीं थे — वो योद्धा थे, वो प्रैक्टिकल थे। तो भक्ति भावुकता नहीं है — ये प्रैक्टिकल है। अतिथि: क्या भक्ति से हम नहीं? प्रभुपाद: हँ, भक्ति प्रैक्टिकल है। अतिथि: ज्ञान — क्या हम भक्ति की प्रोसेस से समझ सकते हैं? प्रभुपाद: नहीं। भक्ति के बिना जो ज्ञानी नहीं है वो भक्ति तक पहुँचा ही नहीं। इसलिए भक्ति तक पहुँचने के लिए भागवत में ९ स्कंध हैं खाली भगवान क्या चीज़ है समझाने के लिए। बाकी ये ९ स्कंध छोड़ करके ये जो प्रोफेशनल भागवत कहते वो १०वें स्कंध में भगवान के रासलीला में चले जाते हैं। ये लोग भगवान को समझा ही नहीं है तो भगवान का रासलीला क्या समझेगा? ये पद्धति जो है भगवान को केवल समझाने के लिए है। भागवत में ९ स्कंध दिया है जन्माद्यस्य यतः वेदांत से शुरू हुआ है। वेदांत से भगवान को सब ज्ञान यही सब विचार है। अतिथि: तो वेदांत भक्ति मार्ग क्या है? प्रभुपाद: क्या? गेस्ट: वेद भी भक्ति मार्ग है? प्रभुपाद: हाँ वेदैश्च सर्वैरहमेव वेद्योऽहम् (भगवद गीता १५.१५) वेद क्या होता है?भगवान को समझाने के लिए। तो वेद आदि शास्त्र पढ़ करके और वेदांत को अवलोकन करके भगवान को अच्छी तरह से समझा उसके लिए भक्ति है। भगवान भगवान को समझा नहीं सब भगवान हैं मैं भगवान हूँ ये भगवान है वो क्या भगवान को समझा? ऐसी भक्ति का क्या है अर्थ नहीं है। अतिथि: वेद का मतलब ज्ञान है। प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान पूरा ज्ञान कृष्ण क्या है? अतिथि: पर जो लोग इग्नोरेंट हैं? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: जिनके पास समझने की शक्ति नहीं है? प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: तो वो लोग नहीं... प्रभुपाद: तो नहीं क्या? अगर वो सीरियस है — तो कृष्ण उनको ज्ञान देंगे। भगवान बोल रहे हैं न एषां सततयुक्तानां भजतां प्रीतिपूर्वकम् (भगवद गीता १०.१०) जो शास्त्र विधि से, गुरु की आज्ञा से, सिर्फ विधिवत भगवत भजन कर रहे हैं प्रीतिपूर्वक, प्रेम से बुद्धियोगं ददामि तम् — उनको भगवान खुद बुद्धियोग देते हैं। और ये — तेषामेवानुकम्पार्थम् अहमज्ञानजं तमः नाशयाम्यात्मभावस्थो ज्ञानदीपेन भावता (भगवद गीता १०.११) भगवान तो आपके हृदय में बैठे ही हैं। जब आप सीरियस हो जाते हैं उनको समझने के लिए तुम उसे धोखा नहीं दे सकते। और जैसे ही आप कान से वास्तव में उसके लिए सुनते हैं तब वह आपको ज्ञान देंगे। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह भी। हमको सीरियस होना चाहिए — प्रीतिपूर्वकम्, भजताम्। भगवान प्रीति (प्रेम) — भगवान को खड़ा करके और कुछ चीज़ सोचो मत। अतिथि: सिर्फ उनकी भक्ति। प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: प्रेम से। प्रभुपाद: गॉड अंडरस्टैंड्स कि आपने उसके लिए प्रीति रखी है या उसके ज़रिए कुछ और चीज़ के लिए प्रीति रखी है। दैट इज नॉट डिफिकल्ट फॉर हिम टू अंडरस्टैंड। ही इज क्लेवरर दैन एनीवन। अतिथि: (हँसते हुए) हू गिव्स द नॉलेज फॉर... (अस्पष्ट) अतिथि: दैट इज ओनली द व्यभिचारेण-भक्ति। प्रभुपाद: अव्यभिचारेण-भक्ति। अन्याभिलाषिता-शून्यं ज्ञानकर्माद्यनावृतम् आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानु- शीलनं भक्तिरुत्तमा (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य १९.१६७) जब भगवान को कोई...दुनिया का — वो कर्म हो गया। भगवान के ज़रिए से — निर्विशेष से — भगवान से एक होना चाहते हैं — तो ज्ञान हो गया। तो — ज्ञान-कर्म-अनावृतम् — ये ज्ञान और कर्म से अनावृत होना चाहिए। इसका दूषितकरण नहीं होना चाहिए — ज्ञान, कर्म का। शुद्ध भक्ति, शुद्ध भक्ति — क्या है? आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानुशीलनम् — केवल अनुकूल भाव से भगवत-भजन करना। भगवान कैसे संतुष्ट हैं — जैसे गोपी लोग। उनको ज्ञान-कर्म का कोई परवाह नहीं। वो केवल चाहते थे — भगवान किस तरह से सुखी हैं बस। ये वृंदावन का भाव है, जैसे यशोदा मइया। अतिथि: विरह भाव। प्रभुपाद: एhhh। अतिथि: विरह भाव। प्रभुपाद: विरह, उनका जो कुछ है — उनका केवल यही भाव है कि हमारा कृष्ण किस तरह से सुखी रहे — बस। अतिथि: वात्सल्य भाव — दोनों साथ में। प्रभुपाद: वात्सल्य भाव हो, सुख भाव हो, दास्य भाव है सबका उद्देश्य है कृष्ण कैसे सुखी हो। कृष्ण को खड़ा करके मैं कैसे सुखी हूँ वो काम है। वो काम है। कृष्ण को खड़ा करके हमारा मतलब क्या है — साधन करने का? वो काम है — उसका नाम काम है। और हमारा कोई मतलब नहीं है केवल कृष्ण किस तरह से सुखी हो वो प्रेम है। ये फ़र्क है काम और प्रेम। प्रेम चाहिए काम नहीं। काम भी ऐसे कैसे? भगवान को खड़े करके अपना कोई कामना सिद्ध करने को चाहते हैं तो भगवान कर देंगे इसमें कोई मुश्किल नहीं है भगवान के लिए। पर वो शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं है। पर वो शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं है। अतिथि: परंतु पास्ट... प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वो सही है — वो भी चलेगा। चतुर्विधा भजन्ते मां जनाः सुकृतिनोऽर्जुन (भगवद गीता ७.१६) उसको शुद्ध भक्ति नहीं बोला है उसको सुकृतिनः बोला है। जो भगवान से कुछ कामना सिद्ध करने को चाहते हैं, कोई ज्ञान सिद्ध करना चाहते हैं, कोई कामना सिद्ध करना चाहते हैं उसको शुद्ध भक्त नहीं बोला जाएगा। उसे सुकृतिनः बोला जाएगा। उसे सुकृतिवान बोला जाएगा। सुकृतिवान यानी पुण्यवान, क्योंकि जो महापापी होते हैं वो भगवान के पास नहीं आते हैं। ये जो भगवान के पास आया है कुछ माँगने के लिए इसका मतलब है कि वो भी सुकृतिमान है क्योंकि आया है भगवान के पास। और भगवान के पास आने से कुछ धन तो ज़रूर मिलेगा। आप तो अच्छा है जिज्ञासु है जो दुखी है, और जो आत्मकामी है, और जो जिज्ञासु है, ज्ञानी है वो भगवान के पास जाते हैं वो सुकृतिवान हैं। अतिथि: आपको पुरी और कुलचा चाहिए? प्रभुपाद: नहीं कुलचा ही ठीक है। माताजी: कुलचा ही ठीक है। प्रभुपाद: आपको पुरी चाहिए? ठीक है उनको पुरी दो। माताजी: हाँ बस आपके वास्ते कुलचा बना रहे फिर... प्रभुपाद: हाँ — पुरी दो। अतिथि: चपाती भी है। प्रभुपाद: नहीं — पुरी, पुरी। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञानी भक्त जैसे शुकदेव गोस्वामी — ज्ञान भक्ति। अतिथि: ज्ञानी भक्त। प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान के बाद जो भक्त होते हैं — वो पक्के होते हैं। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: क्या? ओह हाँ, निश्चित रूप से। ज्ञान का उद्देश्य है भगवान को समझना। जो भगवान को समझ लिया है — भगवान की सेवा में है — वो उत्तम है। ज्ञानी तो भगवान को समझने के लिए कोशिश करना कर रहे हैं। और ये तो काम में लग गया सरकारी नौकरी के लिए कोई दरख़ास्त दे रहा है, और कोई काम में लग गया है — तो कौन बड़ा है? अतिथि: जो लग गया है। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान से भक्ति बड़ी है। अतिथि: ... प्रभुपाद: हाँ भक्ति हो गई तो ज्ञान हो जाएगा। जो शुद्ध भक्त है — जैसे आपका व्यापार करने का उद्देश्य है एक करोड़ मिल रहा है अगर कोई तरह से एक करोड़ मिल गया — तो दस लाख का काम हो ही जाएगा। इसी प्रकार — अगर आप भक्त हो गए — तो ज्ञान का काम हो ही गया। अतिथि: वही बात थी जो मैं शुरुआत में पूछ रहा था। प्रभुपाद: हाँ — इसलिए तो भागवत में कहते हैं: वासुदेवे भगवति भक्ति-योगः प्रयोजितः (भागवत १.२.७) भगवान वासुदेव में अगर भक्ति को लगा दीजिए — तो... जनयत्याशु वैराग्यं ज्ञानं च यद अहैतुकम् (भागवत १.२.७) उसको ज्ञान और वैराग्य अपने आप हो जाता है — और कोई हेतु नहीं है। साधारण से ज्ञान लाभ करने के लिए बहुत कुछ सुनना पढ़ना चाहिए — वेद, वेदांत — बहुत कुछ पढ़ना सुनना चाहिए। बाकी जो भक्त हो गया... यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः यथा-देवे तथा गुरौ तस्यैते कथिता ह्यर्थाः प्रकाशन्ते (श्वेताश्वतर उपनिषद् ६.२३) हमारे गुरुमहाराज के जो गुरु थे — बिल्कुल अपना नाम भी लिखने को नहीं जानते थे। और हमारे गुरुमहाराज जो थे — उस प्रकार विद्वान तो थे ही नहीं। अब उसको गुरु बना लिया — क्यों? सब बात करते थे — सब वेद-वेदांत का बात करते थे। स्वयमेव स्फुरत्यदः (चैतन्य चरितामृत, मध्य १७.१३६) यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः भगवत भक्ति होने से — सब ज्ञान प्रस्फुट हो जाता है। ज्ञान का अभाव नहीं होता है। भगवान खुद कहते हैं — तेषामेवानुकम्पार्थम् जब भगवान जिसपे कृपा करके ज्ञान देता है — उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी कौन हो सकता है? हमारा ज्ञान है — पास से सुन करके, इनसे सुन करके। और वो — खुद भगवान से सुन रहा है — ऋषभदेव। उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी कौन हो सकता है? अतिथि: व्यावहारिक ज्ञान। गेस्ट (२): (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: भक्त जो होता है — उसको शुद्ध भक्त — उसके लिए ज्ञान का अभाव नहीं है। बात समझ आया? अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं — भगवान खुद उसको ज्ञानी बनाते हैं। अतिथि: मुझे स्मरण करके — गीता में बताया गया है — "मुझे स्मरण करके..." प्रभुपाद: हाँ — बुद्धि-योग। जिसको भगवान बुद्धि देते हैं — और जिसको भगवान ज्ञान देते हैं — उससे बढ़कर ज्ञानी, बुद्धिमान कौन हो सकता है? भक्ति सभी शामिल है— और भगवत ज्ञान में ब्रह्म ज्ञान, परमात्मा ज्ञान भी इसी में है। ब्रह्मेति परमात्मेति भगवान इति शब्द्यते (भागवत १.२.११) ब्रह्मा, परमात्मा, भगवान — ये जो है — अद्वैत-ज्ञान तत्त्व, वदन्ति तत् तत्त्वविदः तत्त्वं यज्ज्ञानमद्वयम् (भागवत १.२.११) ब्रह्मण, परमात्मा... ब्रह्मेति परमात्मेति भगवान इति शब्द्यते ज्ञान, ज्ञान, ब्रह्म ज्ञान, इसके बाद परमात्मा ज्ञान, उसको भगवत्-ज्ञान। जिसके पास भगवत्-ज्ञान हो गया उसके पास ब्रह्म ज्ञान, परमात्मा ज्ञान है। जिसके पास केवल ब्रह्म ज्ञान है उसके पास भगवत् ज्ञान नहीं है, जिसके पास परमात्मा ज्ञान है उसके पास भगवत् ज्ञान नहीं है। अतिथि: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान क्या है? ब्रह्म-ज्ञान का अर्थ क्या है? प्रभुपाद: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान जैसे सूर्य की किरण। इसका मतलब यह नहीं कि आप सूरज (बड़ा) जानते हैं। पर दोनों ही प्रकाश हैं। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) ... (हँसते हुए) प्रभुपाद: वह सोचता है कि यह सामान्य पर धूप बड़ा है, पर धूप जहाँ से निकलता है उसको छोटा मानते हैं। अतिथि: धूप जहाँ से प्रकाश आ रहा है... प्रभुपाद: यस्य प्रभा प्रभवतो जगदण्डकोटिकोटीषु अशेष-वसुधादिविभूति-भिन्नम् तद् ब्रह्म निष्कलम् अनन्तम् अशेषभूतम् (भागवत् ५.४०) ब्रह्म निष्कलम् अनन्त। अनन्त जो निर्वेश ब्रह्म है, उसी को बड़ा मानते हैं और जो जहाँ से निकलता है उसको छोटा मानते हैं। अतिथि: जैसे भगवत गीता बड़ी होगी, उसको छोटा मानते हैं। प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान, ज्ञान जो है ब्रह्म ज्ञान। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) ... भगवत्-ज्ञान। प्रभुपाद: ब्रह्म-ज्ञान, परमात्मा-ज्ञान। योगी के लिए परमात्मा-ज्ञान, और ज्ञानी के लिए ब्रह्म-ज्ञान, और भक्त के लिए भगवत् ज्ञान। तो भगवान ब्रह्म, परमात्मा... अतिथि: क्या ये अलग-अलग चरण हैं? प्रभुपाद: क्या? अतिथि: क्या ये अलग-अलग स्तर हैं? प्रभुपाद: अलग-अलग विशेषताएँ। अलग-अलग विशेषताएँ। जैसे सूर्य लोक, सूर्य देव और सूर्य रोशनी। सूर्य रोशनी जो है वह ब्रह्म ज्ञान है, सूर्य लोक जो है परमात्मा ज्ञान है, सूर्य देव जो है भगवत ज्ञान है। अतिथि: बहुत अच्छा। प्रभुपाद: तीनों चीजें एक ही हैं, परंतु अलग-अलग स्तर हैं। तो पहली स्तर है ब्रह्म ज्ञान। ब्रह्म-भूता: ब्रह्म-भूतः प्रसन्नात्मा (गीता १८.५४)। इस दुनिया में झंझट में बहुत दुखी हैं, ब्रह्म ज्ञान होने से सुखी हो जाएगा। ब्रह्म-भूतः प्रसन्नात्मा आत्मा सुखी हो जाएगा। अहं ब्रह्मास्मि। वह मुक्त हो गया। अतिथि: फिर दूसरा आता है। प्रभुपाद: फिर दूसरा। परमात्मा। फिर भगवत-ज्ञान। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: शून्य है, यही हो रहा है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: शून्य बस, शून्य लेकर खाओ, यही तो हो रहा है। यहाँ काम हो रहा है, शून्य को निकाल दिया गया है, केवल कृष्ण को लिया गया है। धर्मः प्रोज्झितकैतवोऽत्र (भागवत् १.१.२)। भगवान को छोड़कर जितना धर्म नाम से चलता है, न उसको कैतव धर्म बताया है — धोखा। अतिथि: धोखा। प्रभुपाद: धोखा उसके नोट में टिप्पणी में। श्रीधर स्वामी: अत्र मोक्षवाञ्छान् पर्यन्तं निरस्तम्। धर्मः प्रोज्झितकैतवः; कैतव-धर्म, ये मोक्षवाञ्छान् जो है — मैं मुक्त हो जाऊंगा और भगवान से एक हो जाऊंगा — ये भी निरस्त। यही भक्ति है ज्ञान-कर्माद्य अनावृतम्। ज्ञान कर्म से उसमें कोई टिंग नहीं है, शुद्ध भक्ति है। अतिथि: कौन है ये धीरे-धीरे? प्रभुपाद: ज्ञान-कर्माद्य-अनावृतम् आनुकूल्येन कृष्णानु- शीलनम् — केवल अनुकूल भाव से कृष्णानुशीलन। वह शुद्ध भक्ति है। नारद-भक्ति-सूत्र: अन्याभिलाषिता-शून्यम् ज्ञान-कर्मादि—है। सर्वोपाधि-विनिर्मुक्तम् — सब उपाधि से मुक्त। यह भी उपाधि है — मैं संन्यासी हूँ, मैं ब्राह्मण हूँ — ये भी उपाधि है। मैं पसि हूँ, मैं हिन्दू हूँ, मैं क्रिश्चियन हूँ — ये सब उपाधि है।सर्वोपाधि-विनिर्मुक्तम् — जब सब उपाधि से मुक्त हो गया,तत्परत्वेन निर्मलम्। केवल भगवत् भाव से निर्मल।उस समय आपको जो परिस्थिति है तो... हृषीकेण हृषीज्ञानीकेश सेवनं भक्तिरेक उच्यते (सीसी मध्य १९.१७०) उस समय आपका शुद्ध इंद्रिय है, वह इंद्रिय से वह सेवा है, उसका नाम है भक्ति। जब तक वह उपाधि तक है, मैं यह फैमिली मेंबर हूँ, मैं यह देश का हूँ, उसको हमारी जरूरत है, यह है वह है तब उपाधि मुक्ति नहीं है। अतिथि: इसे छोड़ना कठिन है... प्रभुपाद: हाँ, यह कठिन है पर कोई रास्ता नहीं है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। यह उपाधि है। जब उधर अमेरिका, यूरोप में भगवत भक्ति प्रचार करने के लिए गया, गार मैं उपाधि युक्त हिन्दू धर्म प्रचार करने गया तो ये सब नहीं होता। वह तो उपाधि देखता है - मैं स्वयं को एक हिंदू मानता हूँ। हाँ। फिर वे नहीं स्वीकारते। वे कहते हैं कि हमें क्रिश्चियनिटी मिली है, मुझे तुम्हारा धर्म क्यों स्वीकार करना चाहिए। निरूपाधि कृष्ण को दिया इसलिए यह संपूर्ण है। अतिथि: अस्पष्ट प्रभुपाद: हाँ, हाँ। अगर आप कहीं भी जाएं, अगर आप हिन्दू धर्म प्रचार करना चाहते हैं, तो वे हिन्दू धर्म में क्यों रुचि लेंगे? वे कुछ शब्द सुन सकते हैं। लेकिन हम हिन्दू धर्म या मोहम्मदी धर्म की बात नहीं कर रहे हैं। हम परमेश्वर के विज्ञान की बात कर रहे हैं। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। भगवान क्या है? भगवान की अवधारणा क्या है? उन्होंने वह स्वीकार कर लिया है। "हाँ, यहाँ सही अवधारणा है।" अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ। अतिथि: वापस भगवान की ओर। प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वापस भगवान की ओर। अतिथि: (अस्पष्ट) मैंने 'Back to Godhead' बांटा है। प्रभुपाद: मैं व्यवस्था करूंगा बांटने की, मुझे पचास हज़ार 'Back to Godhead' मिल रहे हैं। पचास हज़ार, मैं बांटूंगा। अतिथि: उसे बताया कि मैंने इसे सही उपयोग किया। यही मैं... प्रभुपाद: आप लोग, हम सब सर्वोपाधि; कृष्ण। कृष्ण तो निरूपाधि है, सभी उपाधियों से मुक्त। कृष्ण। हमें कृष्ण को भारतीय या हिन्दू के रूप में प्रस्तुत करने की आवश्यकता नहीं। कृष्ण न तो इनमें से है। कृष्ण कहते हैं, दावा करते हैं कि "प्रत्येक जीव मेरा अंश और हिस्सा है, मैं बीज देने वाला पिता हूँ।" इसलिए इसे स्वीकार कर लिया गया है। मैंने कभी नहीं कहा कि "तुम हिन्दू बन जाओ।" वह कृष्ण को परम भगवान के रूप में स्वीकार करते हैं, और दर्शन समझने की कोशिश करते हैं। उन्हें हिन्दू बनने का क्या काम? पर वे जानना चाहते हैं कि भगवान क्या है? वह तो कर रहे हैं। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: और हमारा यहाँ है कि कृष्ण को खाली भगवान क्यों मानेंगे? इसलिए वे उलझन में हैं, यद्यपि कृष्ण भारत में प्रकट हुए। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ, वे कृष्ण को नहीं समझते। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं नहीं कृष्ण, उन्हें भी उत्तर दिया है: भगवान अवजानन्ति मां मूढा (BG 9.11) गधा, वे समझते हैं कि कृष्ण कोई आदमी है, मनुष्य है, उन्हें भी उपाधि दी है — मूढ़ा। अतिथि: मूढ़ा। प्रभुपाद: मूढ़ा मतलब गधा। अतिथि: (हँसी) प्रभुपाद: गधा कृष्ण को कैसे समझेगा? कृष्ण को समझाने के लिए अनेक योग साधन चाहिए: यततां अपि सिद्धानां (BG 7.3) जो सिद्धि प्राप्त की है वे कृष्ण को समझ सकते हैं। इसके लिए बहुत जन्म लेना पड़ता है: बहूनां जनमानाम अन्ते (BG 7.19) बाकी अगर कोई मूर्ख बन जाए, अस्पष्ट हो जाए, हमें इतने अनेक जन्म क्यों लेने पड़ते हैं, क्यों एकत्रित करना पड़ता है? यदि अनेक जन्मों में नहीं आना है, तो अभी कृष्ण के चरण पकड़ लो। क्यों धीरे-धीरे? अगर तुम्हें कृष्ण स्वीकारना है, तो तुरंत क्यों नहीं? यही बुद्धि है। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: सवाल नहीं है कि "होना चाहिए"। जब कृष्ण कहते हैं: "मैं तुम्हें संरक्षण दूंगा", तो क्यों "होना चाहिए"? तुम कृष्ण पर विश्वास नहीं करते। वे कहते हैं: अहं त्वां सर्वपापेभ्यो मोक्षयिष्यामि (BG 18.66) तुम कृष्ण की क्षमता पर संदेह करते हो। इसका मतलब है कि तुम कृष्ण को नहीं जानते। अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: हाँ? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: वह क्या है? दूसरा अतिथि: कृष्ण को समझने के लिए वह जानता है कि वह कृष्ण को समझने की क्षमता से परे है। प्रभुपाद: समस्या क्या है? कृष्ण कहते हैं: "मैं सब कुछ हूँ।" तुम उसे क्यों स्वीकार नहीं करते? इसका मतलब है कि तुम कृष्ण को अपनी मर्जी से समझना चाहते हो। तुम जानबूझकर असमर्थ बन रहे हो? अतिथि: ... (अस्पष्ट) प्रभुपाद: नहीं। वह दूसरी बात है। सबसे पहले समर्पण। फिर किस तरह समर्पण करोगे, वह अलग बात है, एक अलग अवस्था। वह अधिक गोपनीय है। सबसे पहले समर्पण है। अतिथि: समर्पण। प्रभुपाद: पहले तुम इस घर या इस कमरे में प्रवेश करते हो, फिर पूछते हो, मैं तुम्हारी सेवा कैसे कर सकता हूँ? वह अलग बात है। सबसे पहले समर्पण है, और बिना पूर्ण समर्पण के — कृष्ण के द्वार में प्रवेश नहीं है। अतिथि: प्रवेश नहीं। प्रभुपाद: प्रवेश नहीं। क्योंकि जो लोग कृष्ण के खिलाफ विद्रोह कर चुके हैं, जो कृष्ण बनना चाहते थे, उनकी नकल करके, वे यहां इस भौतिक जगत में हैं। इच्छाद्वेष समुत्थेना ... सर्गे यान्ति परन्तप (BG 7.27) सर्वयोनि। यह जो भौतिक जगत है, भूत्वा भूत्वा प्रलीयते (BG 8.19)। निर्माण। वे सभी जीव हैं जो इस सृष्टि में आए हैं, उन्होंने विद्रोह किया है। वे कृष्ण बनना चाहते हैं, कृष्ण की नकल करना चाहते हैं। इसलिए उन्हें मौका दिया गया, "ठीक है, तुम कृष्ण बनो। जो चाहे करो। मैं तुम्हें सुविधा देता हूँ। तुम ब्रह्मा बनना चाहते हो, ठीक है, ब्रह्मा बनो। और तुम मल की कीड़ा बनना चाहते हो, जैसा चाहो।" यह स्पष्ट है। तो ये जीव घूमते रहते हैं। कभी ब्रह्मा बनते हैं, कभी मल की कीड़ा, कभी यह, कभी वह। इसी तरह वे शरीर बदलते रहते हैं। यह भौतिक जगत है। और जब फिर वापस आता है: यद्गत्वा न निवर्तन्ते तद् धाम परमं मम (BG 15.6) तो उसे वापस नहीं आना पड़ता। त्यक्त्वा देहं पुनर्जन्म नैति मां एति सो कौन्तेय तो हमें उस स्थिति के लिए तैयारी करनी है। घर वापस कैसे जाना है, कृष्ण के पास कैसे जाना है, और उनकी सेवा में खुद को लगाना है। फिर सवाल होगा माँ के रूप में, मित्र के रूप में या ... वह बाद में सोचा जाएगा। सबसे पहले आइए जानें कि भगवान का राज्य कैसे प्राप्त करें। यह शर्त है: सर्वधर्मान्परित्यज्य मामेकं (BG 18.66) "तुम मुझे पूर्ण रूप से समर्पित हो जाओ, सारे कर्म छोड़ दो, फिर मैं तुम्हारा प्रभार लूंगा।" अहं त्वां मोक्षयिष्यामि, मोक्षायिष्यामि कृष्ण-भक्त के लिए कुछ नहीं है; मोक्ष या मुक्ति। वह कर रहे हैं, वह तुम्हारा ध्यान रखेंगे। तैयार। ठीक है। हंसदूत: श्रील प्रभुपाद ने बाबा बाल-मुकुंद और वैराग्य बाबा को और ... (अस्पष्ट) ... बॉम्बे में आमंत्रित किया और रविवार को और ४ और ५ तारीख को गीता भवन इंदौर में सुबह के लेक्चर रिकॉर्ड किए और ... (अस्पष्ट) ... बाबा बाल-मुकुंद के कमरे में और लेक्चर के ठीक बाद ५ तारीख को। अब अभी इंदौर में उनके दिव्य कृपा से उपस्थित हैं हिमावती, हंसदूत और रेवतीनंदन ब्रह्मचारी। Conversation at Gita Bhavan -- December 6, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: Begging from door to door for lakṣmī . How can I . . . (indistinct) Indian (1): (laughs) if you . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Devotee: Program for Caitanya Mahāprabhu hated when people call him Narayan . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Within this coat you are, therefore I shall not ask you coat. Indian (1): (laughs) Prabhupāda: Is that any reason? Because within the coat you are, therefore can I address you Mr. Coat? So in this way so many things are misused. Indian (1): (indistinct) . . . (background talking) Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Indian (1): Sometimes if one is usual the karma prospect, so they say. Prabhupāda: Therefore say, over respecting himself. That example I gave you. That if I say: "Your Majesty" that is insult. This is not respect it is insult. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Law of identity, he . . . one should be addressed as he is. Not more than that, not less than that. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, your Holiness. That is sufficient. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mahārāja, Swamiji, Mahārāja, Prabhupāda. This is sufficient. Indian (1): Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. A spiritual master is addressed Prabhupāda. A sannyāsī is addressed as Mahārāja, or Swamiji, like that. Indian (2): But sometimes we don't know the certain distinction between Mahārāja and Swamiji and that . . . because in India it is a common term. Prabhupāda: Swamiji, Swamiji means the master of the senses. One who is master of the senses. Generally we are servant of the senses. Generally. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (laughs) So one who has controlled his senses he is called Svāmī or Gosvāmī. Indian (1): Gosvāmī? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svāmī or Gosvāmī the same thing. Go means senses and svāmī means master. Generally people are servant of the senses. So one who has controlled the senses. The senses act according to his order. He does not act according to the senses order. He is. Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Acha (all right) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 11, 1970, Indore Prabhupāda: Yes, I am trying to send this girl to Russia, Moscow, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yamunā: But I think it is very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Not . . . I don't . . . we got a invitation from Czechoslovakia. That is also Communist country, but there the people invited us to open a center. *Yamunā: The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra was number one in Czechoslovakia. We have one record. I just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa over and over, the mahā*-mantra , and in that country it was the most popular of all records. *Prabhupāda: In Germany also. We sold fifty thousand records in Germany. And there is another record, govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . That is also selling very nicely. And recently another record you produced? What is that? *Yamunā: Yes, that will be a long*-playing record, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Its name is Bhaja Hūre Mana , Mana Hū Re . *Prabhupāda: Ah, bhaja hūre mana, śrī nanda*-nandana , abhaya-caraṇāravinda re. Yamunā: And saṁsāra prayers, vande 'ham prayers. Prabhupāda: So that is not yet out? Yamunā: Well, from what I understood, Mr. Harrison wants to get it out before Christmas, but I have not heard from Śyāmasundara what has developed. Prabhupāda: There is one boy, George Harrison. Perhaps you know his name. He is one of the Beatles. Indian man (2): Harrison, yes. Prabhupāda: Harrison, yes. He paid me nineteen thousand dollars for my publication work, and he is a very good boy. And he is helping in pushing on our record. He is very popular. Indian man (2): Very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And he has got to sing with him. Yes. (break) . . . in London I was guest in one of the Beatles' palace. They have got each one a big, big palace. So we shall all take leave, Mahārāja. Thank you. (break) Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: She likes our movement. Yamunā: Well, she had to. Prabhupāda: (laughs) And she has seen that house also. Yamunā: She knows that we're something Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Eight to nine we have engagement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: Tonight we have another engagement, eight to nine. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So give me cold water. She is countrywoman. She is also American. Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom she is coming? Where father's . . . father's house, this? Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. So Muktānanda, how are you feeling? You are feeling all right? Muktānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So give him kanṭī . Purchase kanṭī from the market. ( japa ) If that kind of mṛdaṅga can be purchased, you find out. That's very nice. Revatīnandana: They have to be brought from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: No, the mṛdaṅga which you played. Revatīnandana: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: They're from Calcutta? Revatīnandana: That's what it says. Haṁsadūta: It's a very nice drum. Prabhupāda: Calcutta, there are many good manufacturers of musical instruments. Bengal is famous for music and hair. Girl: And hair. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Hair? Prabhupāda: There is oil in. Bengali women, they have got hair like this. My sister had so bunch. (laughter) Black hair, and very long. So Bengal is famous for hair and music. Devotee: Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, no. This is for distribution of prasāda here. (break) . . . hungry, hungry man. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness man, never he is hungry. If you are hungry, come, enjoy. We are never hungry. We are overfed. Yamunā: Yes. It's a fact. Prabhupāda: We have to fast practically by feeding others. (laughter) You are after food, we are rejecting food. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. We're having trouble avoiding it. Revatīnandana: We're trying to reject it. Haṁsadūta: I think all of us had thought when you called us to India, "Now we will have to starve." So we came, and there is so much to eat. *Revatīnandana: When we left New York City, the last Sunday, Ṛṣi*-kumāra cooked a tremendous feast. So we ate until we couldn't move, 'cause we thought it was our last feast. We thought there'd never be any more prasādam . (laughter) Now we have to . . . Prabhupāda: There was a famine in India in 1942, big famine. I particularly inquired among the disciples of my Guru Mahārāja, and even the remote village, they said that, "We have no difficulty." No. And another, there was a havoc, earthquake, in Bihar sometime in 1933 or that . . . and one of our Godbrother, Mr. Munshi Chatterjee, when he heard that quarter is completely demolished, so he was in the office. *He was thinking, "What shall I do by going home? There is no more home. Everything is . . ." Then he said: "Let me go and see." And when he came there, only his house was left. Only his house. All house dismantled. The only. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). That we have seen in many instances. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta is never vanquished. Devotee: Yes. We were thinking that he was getting special protection from the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. So be sincere, do your duty. You will never be in trouble. Never. Himāvatī: All the members of this family are attracted to you, Prabhupāda. They are becoming more and more attracted every day. Prabhupāda: But some of them are very envious that I went there with forty rupees, and I got so many boys and girls, children, they become envious. Profitable. They began to say: "Oh, it is profitable business." Is it not? So I said: "All right, I leave your country." If the Kṛṣṇa is there, I can make profit anywhere. All right. So you have to wait? Haṁsadūta: They should come any minute. Prabhupāda: So all our men are ready? Haṁsadūta: We're all ready. Prabhupāda: Four, six, eight, nine. Gopāla is sick? Just see how he is. Devotee: He has a strong fever today. Prabhupāda: Oh, then taking rest completely. Come on. Where the box are? Haṁsadūta: I haven't prepared it. Prabhupāda: You should prepare. Haṁsadūta: They have to be at least three or four . . . Himāvatī: Reinforce the handle so it's stronger. Prabhupāda: You do one thing. Have you got rope? Himāvatī: Rope? Yes. Prabhupāda: Bring it. And do . . . Haṁsadūta: Bring it? Prabhupāda: Yes, rope. Haṁsadūta: You mean put a . . . yes, I'll be able to that. Prabhupāda: This palace is nice. Himāvatī: Yes. Run down, though. I noticed that the upholstery was torn. Prabhupāda: It is very old. Haṁsadūta: That knife, Prabhupāda? You have that knife? Prabhupāda: Yes. You can give to anyone in this way. Aiye . . . (indistinct Hindi) (break) *Prabhupāda: These are not legends, they are fact. Those who are not intelligent, they take it as legend. There are so many descriptions which is not within our experience—we take it as legend. Now, I gave some gentleman the example that the coconut tree. On the tree there are coconut and there are one*-kilo water. Now, how the water is transported there? Where is the pipe? Where is the pumping? Because you have got experience, if you want to get water high, you have to pump and you must have pipe. So where is the pipe and where is the pumping machine? Indian man (1): In the tree. Prabhupāda: So as you see, actually it is packed up nice, two pounds of water, very nice . . . and so nicely packed. How it has happened? What is the explanation of the scientists? According to their calculation, there must be pipe. There must be pumping. Somebody must be pumping. Where are all these? Then is it legend? It is fact. Now you explain how it is happening. If you are scientist, you explain how it is happening. Or you do that. Simply observation will not do. You must make experiment. You make a log standing like that, keep anything, and the . . . it . . . water must go. Indian man (1): Keep the water there . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): . . . and distill it. Prabhupāda: Distill it. (laughter) Then your science will be all right. And where is that, your . . .? Then what is the value of your science? If you cannot explain which is within your experience and you set aside, "Oh, it is all legend, it is all foolishness . . ." You have no knowledge about that. You admit that. How it is done, you cannot do it, or you have not attained to that standard of knowledge. You say that. Don't say it is legend. That is foolishness. You admit your weakness. If you are as equal, equal in intelligence, then explain how this water is being . . . Indian man (1): I had one discussion. So I was given to understand that the pressure in the earth sends. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do it practically. Show. (laughter) No explanation will do. Indian man (1): Only when a living thing goes into the earth, just like trees, then, only then, that thing can happen. Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a living thing like that? Indian man (1): The thing was made . . . that is nature. Prabhupāda: Then the nature is more intelligent than you. So then there are many intelligent works of nature. You do not know. Indian man (1): What is in the stars is also nature. Prabhupāda: So you have no full knowledge of nature. That's it. Then you cannot claim that you are perfect, your knowledge is perfect. Indian man (1): This example is very interesting, coconut tree. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. So many things. But there is explanation in the Vedas : parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working so wonderfully that it appears that exactly it is done by expert person. Now, take a flower, this flower. How nicely it is painted. Indian man (1): Comes out of a green thing, red. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. And how perfectly it is made, coloring. The most beautiful. Nobody can suggest that further coloring this way would have been better. No. This is parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī . Automatically it is done. Automatically. Indian man (1): And seasonal. Prabhupāda: Seasonal. Indian man (1): In one season the same thing will be done all the places. Prabhupāda: All the place. In the season in millions of trees, immediately the same flower is coming out. Indian man (1): What will bloom in summer . . . Prabhupāda: So many things, there is no explanation. They cannot simply say . . . bogus, humbug things they can present, but there is no clear explanation. Even in our body. Now, these hairs are coming out, and what is the explanation of these rascals? These hairs are coming. You're cutting, and coming. Your energy. You do not know your energy, even, what is that energy by which the hair is coming. It is from your body. That means it is your energy. The energy is within you. You do not know how many hairs are there, although it is put in by your . . . Indian man (1): Thousands, thousands of . . . (laughter) *Prabhupāda: This is . . . Abodha*-jāta . Therefore a living entity is called abodha-jāta , "born ignorant, born rascal, born foolish." Abodha-jāta . *Indian man (1): Abodha*-jāta . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Abodha means no knowledge, and jāta means born. By birth he is fool, and he is claiming, "I am God." By birth he's a fool, and he's claiming, "I am God." Just see. This is illusion. This is the māyā . He cannot . . . he does not know how the hairs are growing, and he is God. Just see. "I am God." This has become a fashion, dangerous fashion. And these Māyāvādī philosophers, daridra*-nārāyaṇa , this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa . . . Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he's Nārāyaṇa. Because you are within your coat, therefore you are coat. This is their argument. Because I am in the room, I am room. Is that very sound argument? Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he is Nārāyaṇa. Aiye . (break) Mahārāja. (indistinct Hindi) Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct Hindi) (end) Conversation A -- December 14, 1970, Indore (The text on this page was previously the second part of: 701213 - Conversation A - Indore) Prabhupāda: Utsāhan , dhairyāt . Are you realizing the distinction between this association and others? Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty*-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you know that? Devotee (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to (chuckles) foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: to utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. (aside) Oh, it will not stay. Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window. On the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay. Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark. Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the . . . Haṁsadūta: GBC? Prabhupāda: GBC. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because newspapers . . . so many newspapers have come out within the last three or four years. Of course, most of them are hippie groups, but they have become . . . people are very anxious to read something from different angle of vision. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: They are tired of old newspapers. So if we present a newspaper with our angle of vision, Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: So immediately you write to the GBC members. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . but the articles that will be in the newspaper, they will be exactly like other newspapers? Who will write them? Prabhupāda: No, articles . . . daily newspaper means there must be news. News you can purchase from the news collecting company. They will supply. At very cheap price they'll supply. And you take advertisement. Yes. You'll cover your expenses by getting advertisement and make sufficient profit. Newspaper starting is not a losing business provided you can organize. Just like ordinary newspaper, they give . . . In daily news . . . people want to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity. And those who are advertiser, they are simply concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue 100,000's of copies, then you can charge for each page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand dollars they will pay. Haṁsadūta: That means in each city we would have to have our own local press. Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. You can arrange with any newspaper place. You simply supply your matter, they will print. Just like we are getting from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and supply them. Immediately, within two hours, everything is complete. Haṁsadūta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to another city. Prabhupāda: Well, from every city we can publish. Every city there is a newspaper place. Devotee (4): (indistinct) . . . tend to buy local newspapers. And weekly's are often national, just like the national . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city, like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big, Calcutta and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta . . . Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay is really important city in India: big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But this Calcutta man, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. *So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Banerjee made . . . Surendranath Banerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Curzon, he wanted to divide Bengal, make it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee . . . he is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called "Surrender*-not." (laughter) *The spelling of the name, s*-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation, Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy's house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase. Haṁsadūta: The government house? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is better than Buckingham Palace. Such a big house. Haṁsadūta: Oh, the governor's house. The governor's house? Prabhupāda: Yes, governor's house. Haṁsadūta: It's surrounded just like made . . . Prabhupāda: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy's house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord Curzon's policy was to bring one of the princes from England and make him king of India. Haṁsadūta: King of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Curzon was very nice. Haṁsadūta: That never happened. *Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members . . . just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so*-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy . . . I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam . These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" (laughter) You cannot change his habits. Sva . . . yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ . Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and lap the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be . . . Haṁsadūta: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita . . . I have seen that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high plinth, he says it doesn't become . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow . . . the crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man—"How great I am, a very beautiful bird." Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democratic party in America is the ass. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you . . . Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses. Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant, and the Democratic party is an ass, a donkey. Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote for the asses? According to Vedic civilization there was democracy, but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned Brahmins and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king was himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmins . They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king, they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned, but his son was on the . . . just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa, but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned, but from his family, either his son or brother or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. *So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned Brahmin and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy . . . that Lord Curzon studied it, that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so*-called states . . . now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar , landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement, all the princes and zamindars , they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom: "No more kingdom, because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therefore they have taken . . . the zamindars , immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. *You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur. You saw? Yes. If you have saw . . . how nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko is ocupying, a third*-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house. *And how third class, low grade. It is the sitting room, and a naked picture has . . . how much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low*-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no . . . (indistinct) . . . education, they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ . You know that story? "Again become mouse." Haṁsadūta: Oh, yeah. I've heard that. Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person, "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me." "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of . . . and when he became a tiger, he was . . . (snarling sound) (laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." (laughter) You see? *So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become the stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of this cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa —then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating. Talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low*-graded people have become. *They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā ( BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God," "I am this," "I am that," "I am free," "I am . . ." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin. It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh? Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston, because they're already equipped there. Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston. Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages. Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead . A lot of your articles were commenting about current events. Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Girirāja, you can do that? Girirāja: I could try. *Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you . . . every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then we start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram (BG 5.29). What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; *our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . *So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri . . . come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brāhma*-muhūrta , this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment. Haṁsadūta: I can tell everyone that wants a program to come at five o'clock. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: If somebody wants a program, I can say: "Come and see me at five o'clock." Because after they hear you and they have maṅgala-ārati , then they will be more thoughtful about our . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, tell them. Haṁsadūta: I think that's a good idea. Prabhupāda: You can say now, "If anyone wants to see us, please come at five o'clock, early in the morning." Then I shall see how much serious he is. Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudāsa suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi. Yamunā: It might be difficult to make arrangements, Guru Mahārāja. The place where Gurudāsa is presently staying is not equipped for ten people at present. We'll have to arrange. Prabhupāda: No, we can arrange in the Birla's house. He has a nice dharmaśāla . You know Birla's house? Yamunā: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten days. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So, who invited? Girirāja: One of the people connected with the temple have associated with us in Delhi, and several have invited us. Prabhupāda: So first of all take information from the . . . (indistinct) . . . in which train they have booked our seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi Birla dharmaśāla to accommodate us immediately. So their dharmaśāla . It is Birla's dharmaśāla . First of all we have to see how they have made our seats. Revatīnandana: So the residential place belongs to Mr. Birla? Prabhupāda: No, it is a temple, very big temple. Haṁsadūta: So we should book seats for Delhi on which day? Prabhupāda: Seventeenth. Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth you want to leave? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth? Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth. Prabhupāda: No, day? Haṁsadūta: Today is Monday. Prabhupāda: Then? Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth is Thursday. Prabhupāda: Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday, seventeenth. Prabhupāda: So Thursday, before afternoon, we shall start. Devotee (3): You want to go by plane, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, I am asking one ticket for plane. Devotee (3): You'll fly alone to Delhi? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yamunā: The Delhi airport? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask Gurudāsa to take me. For two hours I can sit down. It goes directly Delhi from here. Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. Devotee (3): But the same plane. Prabhupāda: Same plane. And you come, all, by train. Haṁsadūta: Will we open a bank account here? Will we open an account in Indore? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: This morning with Mr. Holi. Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudāsa . . . we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be arriving? Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa . . .? What is that, Thursday? Haṁsadūta: Thursday . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, Industrial House. Industrial House. Guest (2): It's called "Industry House." Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House . . . Dhruva's full name, you know? Devotee (3): R. C. Prabhupāda: R. C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R. D. Birla, Industry House, Churchgate Reclamation . . . Haṁsadūta: Bombay West. Prabhupāda: Bombay. Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again. Giriraja: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Parliament is in session now? Yamunā: No. Out of session now. When it's in session then all of the politicians come from their castles and their . . . they all, most of the members of Parliament come all the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So when the Parliament begins? Yamunā: It will be . . . (indistinct) . . . it separates for about a month and then comes together. Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Aiye . Aiye . ( japa ) Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this is the best time, because she is not so preoccupied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that picture? There was picture you took there? Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . picture with a letter . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. So . . . so how long you talked with the Prime Minister? Yamunā: Maybe ten minutes. Prabhupāda: So she took some interest? Yamunā: She took a courteous interest. As I say, there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him she was pressed with other matters. A very personal friend of hers that Gurudāsa is now staying with told us that she was very impressed, her personal secretary was very impressed, and that she said—we have it on tape—that she would like to see us again and she was sorry that she didn't realize that we had been even waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have come earlier, she would have . . . (indistinct) . . . in that way she would like to hear some time in the future. Devotee (4): The next day we saw some yogī . *Prabhupāda: Pressing nose. Nose*-pressing philosophy. *Devotee (5): Haṭha*-yoga also. Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So what was his philosophy? *Yamunā: You do some exercises and know God, be self*-realized. *Prabhupāda: You should have said to him, "Are you self*-realized?" Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . a rascal, I didn't want to try. Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God . . . Devotee (5): (indistinct) . . . exercise and breathing . . . (indistinct) . . . some type of meditation performed. Yamunā: He's social svāmī , a very social svāmī . He's very polished in a material way. Devotees (5): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And smoking also? Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices. Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown svāmīs ." . . . (indistinct) Yamunā: His example of spiritual life is based on material prosperity. Prabhupāda: So why they should go to the yoga system? The science is more advanced. Before flying in the sky by a yogī he has to press his nose for so many years, and the science has given us the aeroplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose? Yamunā: You explain that in *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use, wasting time? *Revatīnandana: You said about when you walk on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing, a two*-cent yogī , because for two cents he could have taken a boat across. Prabhupāda: That's all. If that is the ultimate end of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so science has given them all opportunity. And their material science is so advanced that all this yoga system is now almost accomplished, because that is material only, material prosperity. (someone enters) Aiye . Yamunā: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and get fat. Flesh*-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-eaters. Māṁsa . The skin becomes increased for flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia? Russian beauty—big belly, fat. That . . . Yamunā: Germans are like that, too. Germans. *Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fatty. Also too much ghee also. (chuckles) That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just see Marwaris. (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is . . . in Āyur Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya*-guṇa . There is a book, Dravya-guṇa . So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh—birds, beasts, animals. How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, You Are What You Eat. Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian. Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health. Prabhupāda: Liver? Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health. Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations. Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything. Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended. Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take? Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can. Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw . . . Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is sure that without liver extract you shall die, you can take. Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of death, it is recommended you may take anything to save your life. Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even. Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant? Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara , immortal." That is not possible. If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today or tomorrow or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living. Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct) . . . I just have one question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was calling the name of his youngest son. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: He was thinking, but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him. Isn't that true? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling and Nārāyaṇa had to save him . . . Prabhupāda: But simply calling "Nārāyaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes. Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural. Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting, and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord. Prabhupāda: That is the remark of Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa. Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of Ṭhākura Haridāsa and the harlot, that she began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good, and simply by that association she began to chant, or by previous association . . . Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. For three days, three days she associated. Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association, therefore she began to chant. Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason. Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. That is not. Himāvatī: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines, he wrote in some book. Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that. Direct association with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Why previously? Himāvatī: (indistinct) . . . he wants to say that previously she had done some chanting, therefore . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders. Himāvatī: You heard about that article? Prabhupāda: No. Himāvatī: That was the one that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given, it is not against the śāstra , but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Even a moment's association with a pure devotee—all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous. No. Generally it is so, but sādhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, lavamatra sādhu sanga sarva siddhi haya . You have not read in the Sanātana-śikṣā in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya ? Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect? *Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , and there are so many others, they are also reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sowing the seed, the field also must be fertile, or receptible, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal. Revatīnandana: But if the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed starts to sprout, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked. Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive again. Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to . . . that brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; *he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava*-bhakti . Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take . . . (devotees offer obeisances) *Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahma*-jyotir , that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky . . . (indistinct) . . . there's no shelter there, so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body. But spirit, being restless, can remain anywhere, and shelter . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge and blissful life. So there is no bliss. Himāvatī: Yes. Just as we require shelter because we have the body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, this living entity also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this association of Kṛṣṇa. So unless he gets that, he wants blissfulness, but—there is some spiritual blissfulness; he has no information—he comes down again to this perverted blissfulness of this material world. *Himāvatī: They don't take their pleasure in being there in the brahma*-jyotir ? They don't . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is not there. That is . . . Brahma*-jyotir is simply eternity, that's all. The same example can be given: just like sunlight. There is only light. But on a planet, the effect of the light is there—there are so many trees, so many flowers, fruits. We . . . we want varieties of pleasure. Variety is the mother of . . . Devotees: "Variety is the spice of life." Prabhupāda: Huh? Himāvatī: Spice of life. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living entities, life. We want variety. So this is the varietyless—no variety; one kind, sunlight. We require sunlight. We are so much anxious for sunlight. Not only sunlight. *Revatīnandana: It must be very boring. It is very boring in the brahma*-jyotir ? You get very bored? There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go? Prabhupāda: Bore? Haṁsadūta: Boring, dull. Prabhupāda: Yes. Himāvatī: But at first they are satisfied, aren't they, that they've achieved their goal? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They do not know. They are after brahmaṇanda , transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not know that how the real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect. Revatīnandana: When they want to come back, is it very easy for them to come back, or have they got to endure . . .? Prabhupāda: No, they automatically come back, because he is hankering after varieties. So that variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the material world. Just like so many sannyāsīs . Take Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedānta , which is liberation. He came again back to the hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedānta . Of course, he was not very much advanced. There are many. There is a sannyāsī is here, he's a . . . Kārpātrī. He is very learned and other . . . he was formerly speaking on Vedānta and other . . . now he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There are many. *Revatīnandana: The question I had is I have a hazy memory that one time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does enter into brahma*-jyotir , that he has to remain there for some long duration of time, a daytime of Brahmā or a lifetime of Brahmā. Is that correct? What is that duration? Prabhupāda: Not that. That is not like that. Revatīnandana: Not like that. Thank you. *Prabhupāda: But he feels inconvenience without varieties of life. The Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta*-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ : "Their intelligence is not clean." Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ (SB 10.2.32): "Although they rise up to the brahma-jyotir ," patanty adho tataḥ , "they again come back." Haṁsadūta: And the nirvāṇa conception of life is just before Brahman? *Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa conception is marginal position between brahma*-jyotir and this material world. Haṁsadūta: Just on the brink. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāraṇārṇava . Kāraṇārṇava . The Kāraṇa Ocean, wherefrom the beginning of creation, material creation, that is nirvāṇa . Devotee (4): Virajā . Prabhupāda: Virajā , yes. Revatīnandana: Is it possible to go there? Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. Devotee (4): Arjuna went there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: What was Arjuna's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa took him to show His friend. He did not go alone. That he could not. No. (laughter) It was Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: So he went to the spiritual sky? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the use of making friendship with Kṛṣṇa if you cannot do that? There was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sil. He was so rich that . . . every man has different circle in younger days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase house. He said that, "If people say, 'Oh, you are friend of Motilal Sil. You have no your own house?' what people will say about me? He must have his own house." He purchased house for him. He was very big man. And there are many incidences also like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago, say about hundred years ago. He would not see that any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a house in Calcutta. Another Kṛṣṇa's friend, Sudāmā also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own place, how it has happened, palatial buildings, garden. In Kṛṣṇa, you have not read Sudāmā? Give me water. Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . mentions in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* that a devotee in attachment selects one of the Vṛndāvana . . . the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. Does that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an eternal representative of Vṛndāvana? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? Let me . . . Yamunā: It says: "All inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. A devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful." Prabhupāda: Devotee . . . devoted to the Vṛndāvana inhabitants. You don't directly think of yourself that, "I shall see Kṛṣṇa as my son." Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: No. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. Yamunā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You have to follow the footsteps of Yasoda*-mā. Yamunā: Yes. You've told me that before. Prabhupāda: Then it will be success. Revatīnandana: But you've said that you are always in Vṛndāvana, so we are following a Vṛndāvana inhabitant. That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Yamunā: It says: "One should always remember the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja." Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kapoor darśana ? Devotee (4): Yes. Revatīnandana: Have we got an engagement this morning? Haṁsadūta: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: He asked if we have an engagement this morning, 8:30 . . . (indistinct) . . . Molpar. Prabhupāda: Oh, Molpar, yes. They'll send cars? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: How far is it? Haṁsadūta: It's supposed to be just in the neighborhood. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. Devotee: What's his position? His Highness? Haṁsadūta: His Highness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He was formerly prince. Revatīnandana: Of this area? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: He had written that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is the sign of princely opulence. Revatīnandana: He's the son of this man we saw last week? This Mahārāja? It's not his son? Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also old man. Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because I have to wait for Mr. Homing. I won't be going to that place, because I'll be waiting for Mr. Homing. Prabhupāda: Homing is coming? Haṁsadūta: Yes, and I . . . we'll open a bank account. Prabhupāda: That's it. *Haṁsadūta: We'll open a one*-sided account. Book account and, er . . . Prabhupāda: Book Fund account, selling, and one International Society, checking account. (devotees offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that connection? Devotee (4): Bring . . . (indistinct) . . . just now. Prabhupāda: The water? (break) (end) Conversation (partially recorded) -- December 26, 1970, Surat Prabhupāda: Why not preach in a systematic way under government patronage? I am alone trying for it. Indian man: I would just request you, if you can give some idea as to how we could do this in practice; otherwise it is . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot see how I am doing this Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? We don't misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Well . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, our in the bhajan Hare Kṛṣṇa we did. Perhaps we did with the boys and girls, not with adults. *Prabhupāda: No, no. You have seen our book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is ? Indian man: And the preachers will not be proper present. Prabhupāda: No. No. I can train them. My submission is that this movement is acceptable all over the world. Indian man: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is experimented. Why not government gives this movement in a systematic way? I am trying alone in my own, individual way. Indian man: That is the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Government could understand it . . . (indistinct) . . . that this important . . . is very, very important from religious side, and people are eager for it. Indian man: Well the government difficulties, this being a secular state . . . you see, the difficulty would be . . . *Prabhupāda: First of all accept Bhagavad*-gītā . We are speaking on the Bhagavad-gītā. Indian man: Government . . . then government has to also . . . (indistinct) . . . book . . . Prabhupāda: Then why the . . . (indistinct) . . . did not accept another religious books? (break) (end) Conversation -- January 5, 1971, Bombay (Conversation with John Griesser (later initiated as Yadubara Dāsa) and Devotees at the Sea Palace Hotel in Collaba) Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a Brāhmiṇ will never accept a girl born in one śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) family not very respectful. Here family consideration is very . . . during marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family tradition, then horoscope. *The so*-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selection . . . no. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga. There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition. What is the tradition of the boy's father's family, mother's family, so many things they calculate, then the marriage settlement, "Yes." And the boy might not have seen the girl. There is no necessity of the boy seeing the girl or the girl seeing the boy. There is no necessity. After marriage, when the marriage ceremony is performed, then the boy and girl can see one another, "Oh, she is my wife." (laughter) "He is my husband." That. (aside) So. You can begin. Oh, this is another magazine, Earth . Yadubara: It's a new magazine, and this is the second issue out in America. It promised to be a very good magazine, and it hasn't turned out to be so. It's just another slick magazine. Prabhupāda: Well, unless magazines are reduced to such position, it will not be sold. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They want to make business . . . all these pictures are yours? No. Yadubara: No, just the ones on Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. Yadubara: . . . I'm happy to say. Prabhupāda: You begin . . . (break) So who will go to Hong Kong? (indistinct replies) Śyāmasundara: Shall we decide now, or shall we wait until tomorrow? Devotee: I met one man from Hong Kong yesterday, Dr. Bali, so Body and he said he'd give us financial help in Hong Kong. I will go to see him this morning. I already told him about getting here. Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: To Singapore also, the same men? The same two men will go to Singapore and Hong Kong. (devotees chant japa ) Do you think Revatīnandana could go? You said Revatīnandana should go? Prabhupāda: Yes, he can go. ( japa continues) Are you getting some interest with our association? Yadubara: Yes, I am. I feel the effects of chanting very much. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Yadubara: It's very pleasant. Prabhupāda: And if you have got any doubts, any questions, you can inquire. That is required. Yadubara: I have been asking questions of devotees. It's hard for me to comprehend some of the things in the scriptures. I just don't understand. Prabhupāda: No, apart from scripture, from your personal understanding you can place questions. People, generally, they have no idea of God. We are placing the factual God. That is very difficult to understand. Generally they think it is an idea, fiction. But we don't think like that. We have got clear conception of God. That is the difference between our Society and all any other religious groups. They have no clear idea of God. They simply say that there is God, God is great, but no clearer. Yadubara: I think a lot of other societies make compromises. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: Many other religious groups make compromises in their doctrine. Prabhupāda: Yes, because they have no clear idea. They cannot push forward their concept. Just like the other . . . day before yesterday or yesterday the lady, she asked if Kṛṣṇa was a naughty boy. Yes, because He is God He must be naughty boy. Otherwise, wherefrom this idea of naughty boy comes if that quality is not in God? God is the origin of everything, creator of everything. So if He hasn't got this naughtiness in His person, then how this thing comes? That is the Vedānta version, janmādy asya yataḥ ( SB 1.1.1). *The Supreme Absolute Truth is that from which or from whom everything emanates. So wherefrom this naughtiness comes if it is not in the person of God? Wherefrom this stealing propensity comes if it is not in God? But because He is absolute, His stealing is also as good as his blessing. Mākhan*-cora . Kṛṣṇa was stealing butter, that is worshiped, mākhana , by the very name. Is just like in another temple, Kṣīra-cora-gopīnātha. Gopīnātha is known as condensed milk thief, Kṣīra-cora. He is famous by the name cora , thief. But that cora and this cora , you cannot compare. He is famous as cora , or thief, but thousands of people go every day to worship that cora , that thief. And in the material, if one is known as thief, then thousands of people will beat him with shoes. (laughter) That is the difference. If you say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa was a thief, then I can become a thief," then your will be beating of shoes on your head, and Kṛṣṇa will be eternally worshiped because He is thief. That is the difference. That is Absolute. He will be worshiped as thief, and He will be worshiped as very honest. That is Absolute. (aside) No, no, this . . . (indistinct) . . . is not good. Will take little fruit. *Kṛṣṇa is a woman*-hunter. That is the highest pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, rāsa-līlā . But here if a man becomes woman-hunter, he will be most abominable person. That is the mistake of the people: they consider Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). They are rascals, fools, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam . *This sense has to be learned*-Kṛṣṇa, how He is Absolute in all circumstance. Kṛṣṇa is teaching, "Just go and tell little lie to Droṇācārya." Now people will be surprised, how God is teaching somebody that, "You go and tell this lie"? So they become bewildered. So one has to understand actually what is Kṛṣṇa's position in all circumstances. That requires intelligence. (aside) What is this? Śyāmasundara: It's salt and pepper. *Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to learn how Kṛṣṇa is always God in any circumstance. And if he can understand this philosophy, then Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ ye jānāti tattvataḥ . "My activities, My birth, they are all transcendental. One who understands in truth," tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), "after leaving this body, he no more comes to this material." *That means we can be liberated simply by understanding His activities. All the qualities are described in the Nectar of Devotion . He has got sixty*-four qualities. Unlimited quality, but for our understanding, Rūpa Gosvāmī only discussed sixty-four. Just see, that lady was speaking that she speaks to thousands and thousands of people. How ignorant she is about God. She was inquiring, "Kṛṣṇa is not . . ." That means she cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. And she is leader, thousands of people she is speaking. What is the use of her speaking if she has no clear idea? This is going on. Useless speaking. In India also, so many fools, they are accepted as very perfect. Just like Gandhi, take Gandhi. What was Gandhi? In spiritual consciousness, he is nothing. Nothing, no value. But if we say in the public, they will be angry, "Oh!" But actually there is no value, no spiritual value. He is known all over the world as a great spiritualist. He was a moralist, that's all. That is not a qualification for understanding God. Gurudas: It says: "Any activities sanctioned in the revealed scriptures and aiming at the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are accepted by saintly teachers as the regulative principles of devotional service. If somebody regularly executes such service unto the Personality of Godhead under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master, then gradually he rises to the platform of serving in pure love of God." (pause) Prabhupāda: That nonviolence. Kṛṣṇa is number one violent. (chuckles) Number one. There is no limit of His violence. Just see. Yadubara: Don't you have . . . in the material world, sometimes you have to stand up for what you think is right and sometimes use violence? Prabhupāda: Only satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa is right. All wrong. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, that is right. Otherwise everything wrong. Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India, and he felt they should be thrown out. Prabhupāda: Surat? Devotee: In Surat. Prabhupāda: Surat, what happened? One man questioned? Devotee: A man in Surat brought up the question of whether the British should be removed from India. Prabhupāda: British? I do not understand. What is his real question? Śyāmasundara: Should the British have been violently thrown out of India? Yadubara: But if somebody is stepping on you, then you should take action to remove those people. Prabhupāda: Yes, our position is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not for personal self. Ordinary world activities. Serving Kṛṣṇa and the result of such service is the same. In the material world, doing something and result of the doing is different. Our means and aim is the same. Just like Kṛṣṇa advises Yudhiṣṭhira to speak lie to Droṇācārya. It is a means. The means is also Kṛṣṇa, and the end is also Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute. Absolute . . . we must have clear conception of what is the Absolute. In any circumstances, the quality of the Absolute remains the same. What was the question in Surat? Devotee: Whether the British should have been forcibly removed from India. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. Then . . . clearly said in the śāstras . If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action*-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha . *But in devotion, there is no karma*-bandha . As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāvamanyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāvamanyeta karhicit , "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta , "Never be envious of the ācārya , thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān . Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair . Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya , he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya , he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent. But if he is criticized, then that man who criticizes, he becomes . . . of course, he must be ācārya , not a bogus. Ordinary man cannot transgress the laws, but Kṛṣṇa and His representative, ācārya , might be sometimes seen that he has transgressed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). *Vaiṣṇavera kriyā , mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya . In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Vaiṣṇava ācārya , his activities is not understood even by the wisest man. Vaiṣṇavera kriyā , mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya . Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Ācārya , guru , he is completely surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has taken the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, being completely freed from all material affection. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Everything . . . everyone has got some material desire to fulfill, but a guru or ācārya has no such business. That is the symptom of ācārya . He has no more any material business. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . He has finished all business of material satisfaction. That is the symptom of ācārya . And śābde pare ca niṣṇātam . And he has taken full bath in the ocean of transcendental . . . (indistinct) . . . śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam . Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta (SB 11.3.21), one should surrender to such spiritual master. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam , when he is actually serious about inquiring the transcendental subject matter. Otherwise there is no need of accepting guru or ācārya . He has no business. If one is not interested in the transcendental subject matter . . . just as so many people come, they have no interest. Unnecessarily they talk and waste time. As soon as I asked that man that, "If I say something, whether you will accept?" He said, "If I like it, then I shall accept." Then why come to waste my time to inquire from me? *Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). When you go to inquire something from a person, you must fully surrender there, or you must find out a person where you can fully surrender. Otherwise, don't put any questions. Your waste of time, his waste of time. Because he will not accept. Suppose if you go to a physician, you are diseased, and the physician says, "All right, I shall give you medicine." And if you say: "Yes, I shall accept the medicine if I like it," then why do you go to that physician? What is the meaning? *The physician, one physician doctor friend, long . . . forty years ago, he prescribed one of my patient medicines. And the patient little protested because it is Indian*-made. He was Eurasian. So as soon as he questioned, "What is this medicine, Indian-made?" "Yes, it is Indian-made. If you have no such faith, don't come to me." He flatly said: "Don't come to me." That should be the position of the physician or ācārya . If you go there, you should accept whatever he says. *If you are in doubt, then don't go there. That is the position. It is freedom. It is not that you have to accept some ācārya particular by canvassing. No, you should be satisfied that, "Yes, here I can surrender, here I can gain something." Then surrender. In the spiritual science, there is no bluffing. Everything must be very clear*-cut. Otherwise it will be not very satisfactory. (break) Hear this sound, ca-caw caw . (laughter) Because nobody keeps this rooster. Yamunā: Oh, that's chicken? Oh. Prabhupāda: No, what is . . . Yamunā: Peacock? Prabhupāda: Peacock, yes. Yak, yak , like that. That sound he makes. Guru dāsa: And kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: We can hear kīrtana . Prabhupāda: Kīrtana and bell in the temple, dong , dong , dong , dong , dong , dong . This sound we will hear early in . . . *Prabhupāda: In Hawaii, this disturbance is there. (laughter) Always, ca*-caw , caw . (laughter) Devotee: There's not so much at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: There's not chickens at Advaita Bhavan. Prabhupāda: No, in neighborhood. In Hawaii, they are very much fond of. Some of them eat dogs also. Devotee: Yes, the Filipinos eat dogs. Prabhupāda: Filipino. Yadubara: Chinese also sometimes. *Prabhupāda: Dog*-eaters. Yadubara: Sometimes monkeys also. Prabhupāda: Monkey? Yadubara: Umm hmm. Monkey brain. It's very rare, but it's done. Prabhupāda: Chinese? Yadubara: Chinese. Prabhupāda: Chinese, they eat everything. (laughter) They eat rats also. Rats, snakes. They are caṇḍālas . Yadubara: They say Chinese are very practical and that they will make use of anything. *Prabhupāda: They eat man also. Yes. There was a case in Calcutta—they were eating man. They will call a hawker, "Come in, I shall purchase." And as soon as he enters, he never comes back. There were two hawkers. So one entered the house and other was waiting. But when he saw that he is not coming, he went to the police that, "My friend, he went but he is not coming." The police inquired and made a search, whole house, there were so many human bones, they're eating. Man*-eater. Man-eater, in Africa there are many. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're called cannibals. Prabhupāda: Cannibals, and they eat white man very . . . they like white. Yadubara: In pot. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They will mislead some white man and . . . in India also there is this class. In Assam side. They eat man. Man mean, they regularly sacrifice before the Goddess Durgā and eat. Ahiravan, Rāvaṇa's brother. The Red Indians, they also eat, in America. Do they not? Yamunā: They used to. There are no left anymore. Prabhupāda: "Used to" means who knows what they are doing now. Yamunā: The white men came and killed them. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but they kill for eating. That is . . . fighting or for taking possession, killing, that is everywhere. That is not extraordinary. But killing for eating a man, that is extraordinary. (chuckles) *Devotee: That's only in Kali*-yuga, yes, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Only in . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, all the yugas . More or less. (aside) So when we shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: I'll just see if the car is here. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . have to take away Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. The Japanese, they also eat everything? No. Devotee: Not now. Prabhupāda: Some of them? Devotee: In times of war, I think all people . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but generally. *Devotee: No, they don't. In China, the island of Taiwan, the original inhabitants, they were known as man*-eaters. *Prabhupāda: Man*-eaters? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this Calcutta story is not a story, it is fact. Hmm? Guru dāsa: I was asking Yamunā about the tape. Prabhupāda: Tape? Guru dāsa: About this tape recording. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not the question of, "The Chinese are eating, I am not eating." It is a question that how many number of different types of body I got. It is not that I am talking of Chinaman eating man or dog. I may be in that form, next life. So, therefore, the problem is how to stop this transmigration of the soul. That is the problem. Not that because the Chinese man eats something else other than I eat, that does not mean that I am very much . . . *(break) Therefore, we have to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to have next. That is human civilization. But they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. They do not believe in God. They do not believe in anything. Simply just like animals. This life—eating, sleeping, mating—do it to your best capacity. That is Kali*-yuga. They have no knowledge, neither they are interested to know. Mandāḥ . And even they become little interested of spiritual . . . a hodgepodge, no clear idea. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo (SB 1.1.10). And unfortunate, harassed in every field of life. *And hy upadrutāḥ . And over and above everything, they are always disturbed by external enemies. This is the position of Kali*-yuga. And this life shortened, duration of life. So how they can advance by following the regular Vedic process? It is not possible. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). No car? Śyāmasundara: Not yet come. Prabhupāda: Uh? Śyāmasundara: He will ring as soon as it comes. He telephoned it is on its way. It should be here any moment. (pause) *Prabhupāda: They are so slow. They do not understand the spiritual value of life, and simply they are satisfied with something hodgepodge, that's all. The entire population of the present*-day world. (break) Just like the hippies. There are so many hippies. They want something spiritual, but no clear . . . something hodgepodge, that's all. Yadubara: Has this happened before, the material wealth that we have now? Has it happened in past ages? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Technological advancement, scientific? *Prabhupāda: All scientific. As this is winter season, so there will be a summer season. Anyone can say that after two months there will be summer season. Similarly, these ages are also, what is called, changing. So now it is Kali*-yuga. After this Kali-yuga, there will be Satya-yuga. Cycle. So everything is happening. When there is winter season, everyone feels cold. So there is no question of asking. *The particular type of age and its reaction of the quality of the nature, it will be there. So as there are many Kali*-yugas, so it is to be understood that many times these things happened, and many times again will happen. Seasonal flowers, fruits. In the past, there were many times all those flowers and fruits, and in the future also they will appear. What is the difficulty to understand? But if—all these changing circumstances, if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your position becomes transcendental. *You are no more subjected to all this changing process. So that opportunity is in the human life. It doesn't matter whether he is in the Kali*-yuga or Satya-yuga. Because he has got this human form of life, he must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then his problem is solved. So you have to preach like this, that we are giving the best human welfare activities to utilize this human form of life. If we do not make our . . . revive our lost relationship with Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, then this human form of life means knowingly you are drinking poison. This Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they are Vedic songs written in plain Bengali language. *People are already mad, and the so*-called rascal leaders making them more and more mad. That's all. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). So-called scientists, so-called religious leaders, all rascals. If we say that all rascals, we are only intelligent, (laughter) they will not be very happy. But that will be fact, try to understand it. Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: They get very upset. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: They have no conception of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They just don't understand. Prabhupāda: Only intelligent person can understand. If you can understand, then you are intelligent. Are you understanding or not? Yadubara: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then why you are not understanding yet? We have given free scope. What is your reason of not understanding? Yadubara: I think I understand a little bit, gradually. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Even if you understand little bit, that will give you great benefit. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato (BG 2.40). If you understand little, that means your door is open. Just like sometimes there is boil. If little mouth is open, that means that is the beginning of oozing out all the pus. It will gradually open, and that is the natural venue. Open and it will be cured. So little understanding is also very good. Then you will understand further. What you have understood now? Yadubara: What have I understood? I understand that the chant has potency, has some meaning for me. And I understand on the basis of what I've done before, on the basis of my experience, what I've seen around me, I've seen that conditions are not good. And I've seen the conditions in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are much better and the feeling is much better. Prabhupāda: That is very good sign. Yes. Yadubara: So I think it must have some worth. There must be something here. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can discuss with these boys and girls. Try to understand. Here there is nothing dogmatic. Even something appears to be dogmatic, it is not dogmatic. Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: Even if we have dog's obstinacy, if we just associate long enough, then it will act upon you. *Prabhupāda: Yes, if we open our heart, then open*-heartedly, then it will be nice. No reservation. And that open-heartedness means free from designation. That is open-heartedness. If I think, "Oh, I am American. Why shall I take this Indian philosophy?" Or if I think, "I am Christian. Why shall I take the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā ?" then it will not work. One has to be free from these designations. Then it will be easy. I am . . . God is God, and I am also part and parcel of God, my relationship with God. *So let me understand what is that relationship, what is God, what I am. That freedom, that open*-heartedness will make it. But if I try to understand as Christian, as Englishman, as Japanese, as Indian, then it will be difficult. Many of our students joined, even initiated, but they could not make them free from these stereotyped ideas. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). One must be free from the . . . aiye aiye . So let us go. Take the box. (break) Devotee: I'll try and please you, but I don't think I can do such a nice job. Prabhupāda: I have seen the Sai's photo. From his photograph, it appears he has a guru . From his appearance, I can understand. (break) Devotee: I feel that it is my duty to see that the devotees who are staying at the other temples are respectful and are following your wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Some things that Sai mentioned in that letter that I should answer, he asked about photographs, spiritual photographs. Prabhupāda: My photograph? Devotee: Yes, he said something about photographs, that the devotees had photographs of him and he didn't want them to have them if you didn't want them to. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not harmful. He can . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- January 25, 1971, Allahabad Prabhupāda: . . . and Viṣṇu mand . . . temple we are protected from 12 sides. Devotee: Prabhupāda if you don't have any kind of tilaka can you put on with water. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: If you don't have tilaka . Prabhupāda: Why you? Why you will not have? You carry tilaka . Why water? Devotee: I mean . . . (indistinct) . . . that tilaka is washed over something. Prabhupāda: "Washed over," see again people. Just like ready . . . (indistinct) . . . powderpuff. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Why don't you do that? Why don't you do like that? Eh? If they can carry. What is that? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . handbag. Prabhupāda: No there is a technical name. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mādrī? What is that name? You never. You have left it? All right. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Anyway the ladies carry some bag. Devotee: Lady purse. Prabhupāda: Eh? Lady purse. That's all right. So you carry something like that. And you know there is no . . . (indistinct) . . . just like we do sometimes, sometimes in aeroplane. You have to do that. Keep always a trademark. And our trade is Kṛṣṇa business. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like you have this. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . sandalwood or. Prabhupāda: No wood, any matti se ho jayega. (clay will do.) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: It is called gopī*-candana . Gopī-candana . This is available . . . Indian: Available in the markets. Prabhupāda: Which is known as also Multan Muskit. So there is agreement, so keep a little small mirror. And a piece of. There is no . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We are without . . . Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes. But. My Guru Mahārāja without mirror he could, and what is there? We can do also . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh? There is this, tilaka , ūrdhva*-puṇḍra . This is for Vaiṣṇavas or demigods. And this is for the demons. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Demons. Because demons are, they are devotees just like Rāvaṇa. He was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. You know that? But he was known as a demon. Is it not? Why? Rāvaṇa was a great devotee, Hiraṇyakaśipu was a great devotee of Brahmā but he was known as a demon. Is it not? Yes. Anyone who defies the authority of Viṣṇu or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is a demon. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daivaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). *Those who are devotees of Viṣṇu, they are devatās . And those who are opposite number, maybe devotees of anyone else. Very good man but he was a demon. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparayāt , anyone who is not a Viṣṇu bhakta, he is a demon. What is that? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, so if we tell the truth there is demoniac. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. So it doesn't matter whether a sannyāsī . Rāvaṇa was also sannyāsī his purpose was to kidnap Sītā. Is it not? He was . . . he kidnapped Sītā in the dress of a sannyāsī . Therefore he is a demon. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Sannyāsī is mahātmā a devotee. Jo sab samay bhajan karta hai woh, sannyasi hai woh, mahatama . . . (indistinct) . . . (One who chants all the time, he is a sannyāsī or mahātmā . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian: Aapne kal kaha thaa . . . (You had spoken yesterday) . . . Prabhupāda: Haan yahi, yeh toh baat hai. (Yes, that was what we spoke about.) Indian: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He's demon. The demons also are sometimes are very powerful. They are very learned also sometimes. Just like Rāvaṇa was very learned, very powerful, but he was a demon. Kaṁsa was also very powerful, Hiraṇyakaśipu was so powerful that all the demigods would faint by seeing his angry eyes. Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja says like that, "My dear Lord, you are trying to give me material benefits, thank you very much. But I have seen my father was so materially powerful that simply by seeing his angry eyes the demigods would faint. But you have seen it, they want it. So what is the value of this, why you are offering this." So that . . . What is the value of this material benefit, it is known to the devotees. Therefore it is said that they are not interested. They are simply interested in serving the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is their only offer. They are no more interested in anything else. And that is mukti , when one is situated in that position that he has no more anything to do with anything else except Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . he is immediately liberated. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda which Canto is Ajāmila . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Which Canto in *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Arjuna? Devotee: Ajāmila . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? fifth canto? What is his question? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Speak one. Either you speak or they speak. Why you take two? What is the question? I cannot understand. What is that? Devotee: He wants to know what Canto, what Ajāmila story is from.? Prabhupāda: Oh, sixth Canto. That's all right. I could not follow the Ajāmila pronunciation. Therefore I was puzzled. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . now at college, there was one Mr. Carmichael. He was Scotsman. So all the Scotsman they used to say dyuty. Not duty. Buety, that is for beauty. Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So, one, one (laughs) of our class friends, his name was Pramuka Mukarjay I remember. He was very cunning. So he stood up, "Sir, is that Scot's pronunciation?" He became very much angry. Mr. Carmichael. (laughs) "Yes, that is English pronunciation." He said like. "That is correct English pronunciation." . . . (indistinct) Devotees: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this pronunciation, that trouble is our. There is a secular place I think they are different soldiers from different provinces. They were speaking and nobody could understand. There was a trouble. What is that book? King Lear or something. These difficulties are always there. Even in India the pronunciations are different . . . no one can tell you. (end) Conversation (Bengali and English) -- February 3, 1971, Gorakhpur (Conversation with Hanuman Prasad Poddar) *Prabhupāda: Ratha*-yātrā. Oikhankar jinish oikhanei. (Things of there, are there.) Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . bhagavaner nam kora, bhagavaner bhakti kora eisob jinish. (Things like chanting Lord's name, worshiping Lord, all these.) Prabhupāda: Eidekhun ei gr . . . e hochche grhastha, ei hocche sannyasi . . . (indistinct) . . . sabai mile korte hocche, gṛhastha ache! (Look this is gr . . . he is a gṛhastha , he is sannyasi . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is doing it together, he is a gṛhastha!) Hanuman: Nischoi, nischoi, ta boi ki. (Of course, of course, why not.) Prabhupāda: "One has to learn the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes spiritual master. It does not matter whether a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha ." Apni yeman gṛhastha . As you are grhastha . I've known gṛhastha he was 1000 times better than so many sannyāsīs (laughs), Mahaprabhur sob baro baro shishya chilo grhastha, Nityānanda prabhu—gṛhastha, Advaita prabhu— gṛhastha, uni nijeo grhastha chilen, grhastha holei ye ekbare patit hoye gelam erom to katha na. Eta Mahaprabhu bolechhen. (There were many sincere disciples of Mahaprabhu were gṛhastha . Nitynanda prabhu- gṛhastha , Advaita prabhu- gṛhastha , he himself was gṛhastha , gṛhastha means most fallen this is not fact. Mahaprabhu said this.) Hanuman: Nischoi, tate apot . . . (Of course, there is no objection . . .) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . okhane kore dekha yacche ye, ei Mahāprabhur ye movement, (after doing this in that place we can see the movement of Mahaprabhu. it is very important.) Systematically ekhane korleo, ekhane ye samasta, golmal hocche sob theme yabe. (If we do this here, then whatever clutter is going on here, all will be stopped.) Hanuman: Ekhane onek comitir lok, onek rakomer lok . . . (People of many communities, many types of people are here . . .) Prabhupāda: Tai hoyeche nischoi. (So it must have been. Yato mat tato path .) Hanuman: Ek . . . apni ekta bhab niye cholchen, sei bhabtai ye grahan korte pare se to bujhbe, ki kaj hocche. Ta na hole . . . (One . . . you are carrying an idea, one who can accept that idea he can understand, what is going on. Otherwise . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhutva bhava sa maṇḍita . Hanuman: Ta na hole onyera yara dekhbe, tara ni . . . nijer cokhe dekhbe to. (Otherwise other people who will see, they will see with their own eyes.) Prabhupāda: Hanuman: Yeman drsti temon drshya. Drsti, drsti nirman kare. Yekhane . . . (indistinct) . . . sekhane lav nei. (Such a vision is such as scene. Vision made a scene. Where . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no benefit.) Prabhupāda: Bharatvarse . In India. Hanuman: Na ei Gora . . . Gorakhpure. (No in this Gora . . . Gorakhpur.) *Prabhupāda: Gorakhpure . . . emni program to car*-pach din hoy. Tarpore bhagavaner jevabe . . . (In Gorakhpur usually the program runs for five to six day. And then as they do with the Deity . . .) Hanuman: Ami erokom mone kori . . . (indistinct) . . . eikhane uthben apni, amio . . . bole, lok pathiye deoa hobe, uni yeman bhak . . . bhaktader . . . bhakta manus. (I think like this . . . (indistinct) . . . you will come here, myself also . . . will tell, people will be sent, as he is a devotee . . . of a devotee . . . he is a devotee.) Prabhupāda: Beshidin yodi thakar kono program hoy, tahole apnar ekhane jayga ache. Apnar ekhane thakbar kato loker jayga hobe? (If there is a program to stay longer, so you have a place. How many people can stay in your place?) Hanuman: Kato lok thakte chan? (How many of you want to stay?) Prabhupāda: Sange ache, abasya pray ba . . . batrsh jon. (We have almost thir . . . thirty two persons.) *Hanuman: Thakte pare. Amader ekta alada ye ghar ache tarnam hocche Kṛṣṇa*-niketan. Ta apnara ki . . . (They can stay. We have another house, name of that is Kṛṣṇa-niketan. So will you all . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh! Taholeto amaderi ghar. Government service, yeman government servant yeman government ke guest house thakte den, temon. (Oh! (laughs) Then that is our house. (laughs) Government service, just like government servants give the government to stay in guest houses, like that. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa we have got claim.) (laughs) Hanuman: Ami tai to shunlam. Ke atkabe! (That's why I am asking. Who will stop.) Prabhupāda: īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: (ISO 1) Apnar kati nati? ekti? (How many grandsons do you have? One?) Hanuman: Duti. Ekta ei, ar ekti ei. (Two. One is here, another is here.) Prabhupāda: Ar ei chele ki natir chele naki! (And is this the son of your grandson.) Hanuman: Na, e amar natir chele noy . . . hoche paribareri . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, he is not the son of my grandson . . . he is one of the family members . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Hanuman: Meye eseche. Daughter came.) Prabhupāda: Accha . Accha . Hanuman: Amader gharer meye. Oi . . . Gita, yake apni dekhechen to. Our own daughter. (She is . . . *Gītā* , you have seen her.) Prabhupāda: Accha! Accha! Hanuman: Paresher wife! se eseche . . . (indistinct) . . . (Wife of Paresh. She has come . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Uni apnar Natni? (Is she your granddaughter?) *Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . tar shashuri, oi Paresher maa se car tarikh sekhan theke amar ekhane achen. (Her mother*-in-law, Paresh's mother came here from there on the 4th of date.) Prabhupāda: Ekhane esechen? (Came here?) Hanuman: Ora ekhane thake. Ajit to ekhane thake. (They live here. Ajita also lives here.) Prabhupāda: Kailasher to duti maa ache. (Kailash has two mothers.) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Uni besh bhalo, amader khub yatna karechen. Kichudin aro sob thakun, apnara thaklei loker upokar. (She is very good, she cares for us very much. You please live for more years, as long as you live people will be benefited.) Hanuman: Yeman tar icche. (As the Lord wants.) *Prabhupāda: Parikshit Maharajer bisaye jijnasa korechilo ye, tini to yatodin thakten loker upakarer jonye. Tini erom bhabe asamaye sarir tyag korlen keno? Eita prosno hoyeche. Yader thakle jagater upakar hobe, tara erom bhabe voluntarily sarir charben keno? Erom bhabe ekta question hoyeche. (Once it was asked about Parikshit Maharaj, that is, as long as he lived for the benefit of the people. Then why did he untimely leave his body? This question was asked. The world will be benefited by the presence of those, why do they leave their body voluntarily? A question was asked like this.) Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau. Gosvamira . . . gosvamider bishaye ache. (The goswamis . . . these are about goswamis:) *Prabhupāda: Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau, sadhu, vaisnava tader jibantai hocche paropakarer janya. ( sadhu , Vaisnava—their life is only for helping other.) patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo vaiṣṇavebhyo namo namaḥ Hanuman: Eta shikhiyechen Mahaprabhu, "ami loko upakar kori" Mahaprabhur shishyara e mane na, arthat "trnadapi sunicena", amra ki korbo! sob tini e koracchen sob. (This is what Mahāprabhu taught, the disciples of Mahāprabhu don't think that is "I help other people", so "trnadapi sunicena," what we do? Actually he (God) is doing everything.) Prabhupāda: Tato achei. Ekhon katha . . . ekta katha hocche ye Bhagavan bolchen, (That's it. Now the thing is . . . one thing Bhagavan said is,) *Prabhupāda: Pāpa*-yonih yara tara amake ashraya korle tarao pora gati labh korbe: (Those who are pāpa-yonih , if they take shelter unto me, they will be also delivered:) *Ei jagate ye papa*-yonih ache taderke uddhar korar darkar ki na? (The papa-yonih of this world, they also need salvation, or not?) Hanuman: Darkar boi ki? darkar to ache. (Why don't they need? Must need.) Prabhupāda: Sei janya Mahaprabhu bolechilen ye: (That's why Mahāprabhu said this:) *Papa*-yonih ke papa-yonih rekhe dile cholbe na. Bharatvarser eiye yuddha holo, Pakistan holo, papa-yonih ke papa-yonih rekhe deoa holo. Tader ke uddhar kara holo na. (We should not left papa-yonih as papa-yonih . There was a war in India, and Pakistan developed, this way papa-yonih was left as papa-yonih . They were not delivered.) Hanuman: Seto bere yacche. (They are increasing.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Hanuman: Seto bere yacche. (They are increasing.) Prabhupāda: Sutarang ei process ta hochche, Mahaprabhur process ta, ye, pacjonke uddhar kara eta Bharatbasir kartabya. (So the process is, the process of Mahāprabhu, that is, giving salvation to five people; this is the duty of every Indian. is the duty of every Indian.) Hanuman: Ta nije . . . mane bhakter nijer kono kaj nei. Ei tar kaj. (Himself . . . means, the devotee doesn't have any work for himself.) Prabhupāda: Bhagavaner seva, ar bhagavan . . . (Serving the Lord, and the Lord . . .) Hanuman: Ei ye bhavaner seva! (This is service to the Lord.) Prabhupāda: Eta Bhagavaner seva. Bhagavan bolchen, (Yes this is service of the Lord. The Lord said:) Ar amra bolchi, sob chere Kṛṣṇa bhakta hao. (And we are also saying, leave all your materialistic activities and become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.) Hanuman: Oito bhagavan ya bolchen to! (This is what the Lord is saying, right.) Prabhupāda: Na, bhagavan ya bolche seita amra bolchi. Sutarang amra bhagavaner representative. Amra canvas korchi. (No, we are saying the same as the Lord is saying. So we are the representatives of the Lord. (laughs) We are canvassing. Boliye Gosvai. What you are saying about it, Gosvai. We are canvassing.) Jo bhagavan Kṛṣṇa hey, (The Lord, Kṛṣṇa,) kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28) Uske caran mey prabritti karo. (Simple thing, just be engaged in the service of his feet. Simple thing.) Hanuman: Yeh sabse badi lok seva hey. Sabse badi lok seva. Kisiko Sri Kṛṣṇa ke taraf mila dena, yeh sabse bada . . . (This is the greatest service to humanity. Greatest public service. Bring someone to Sri Kṛṣṇa, this is the greatest . . .) Prabhupāda: I am very well pleased that you are . . . certified that this is the greatest service to the humanity. Hanuman: Greatest service, greatest service. no doubt, greatest service. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Ta ete . . . ei service er jonye, samasta bairer lok ei jinishta nebar khub prostut. Tara to . . . (indistinct) . . . (So this . . . for this service, all foreigners are ready to take this service. For this materialistic way of life . . . (indistinct) . . .) Hanuman: . . . (indistinct Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra). Ta ekhane sob procharak tairi korbo, kore sara duniya . . . eta holo Bharatvarser dan, r ekhon Bharatvarsa bhikiri, kebol bhikye korte jay. (So I will prepare many preacher here, and send them to all over the world . . . this will be the best gift from India, and nowadays India is beggar, only go for begging.) Hanuman: (indistinct Bengali) . . . ta na hole. (otherwise.) Prabhupāda: Abasya amar maton, ami kichu janina, tobe erom ekta chesta korchi. Ta apnara sakole mile sahayog korun, tahole eikhankar sob lok tairi kore er potency ta onek hoto. Cari dhare lok pathabo. (Actually like me, I don't know anything, but still I am trying. So all of you please help me, then we can prepare many preachers here and the potency of movement would be more.) Hanuman: Chilo to, eto deshe thaka khaoadaoar jonya. Ei desheri lok sob jaygay giye . . . (They were there, for the problem of living and eating. People of this country went to every place . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, tabe thik jinishta niye yete hobe. Baje mal niye gele kintu kaj hobe na. Asol sona niye yete hobe, tahole sob jaygay demand ache. R nakol niye gele tar kichu kaj hobe na. Eta hocche asol sona. (No, but we have to take the right thing. If we take bad things then it won't work. We have to take real gold, it has the demand in every place. If we take a fake, it won't work. This is the real gold.) *Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65) *Ei sloker artha Dr. Radhakrsna bolche ye, na Kṛṣṇar ye bhetare ache sei jinish ta bolche. Bhagavan bolchen 'man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto' Radhakrsna ulte palte aro kichu bolchen. Kṛṣṇa r Kṛṣṇar bhitare ki tafat ache? Kṛṣṇa abar Kṛṣṇar bhetare alada, tafat ache kise? (Dr. Radhakrsna is describing meaning of this sloka is, no it is saying by the person who is in the Kṛṣṇa. Lord is saying man-manā bhava mad-bhakto and Radhakrsna changing it and saying another thing. Is there any difference between Kṛṣṇa and inner of the Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and inner of the Kṛṣṇa?) Hanuman: Yara maya bisista isvar mane, tara ei bolche. (They are telling this, who are the believers of maya in īśvara .) Prabhupāda: Isvar maya bisista hobe ki kore? Setai to katha. (How īśvara can be in maya ? This is the thing.) Hanuman: Tara bolche . . . tara bolche ye . . . (indistinct) . . . ei isvarer sange asol isvarer samanddhya ki? Sudhu bhetare ache. Se ja ache, se ache. (They are telling . . . they are telling that . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the relationship between this īśvara and real īśvara ? They are only in our body. Whoever is, he is.) Prabhupāda: To sei sidhanta ora grhan korena. Mahaprabhur kathata ache. (They don't accept that philosophy. There are the words of Mahāprabhu.) Hanuman: Sei Gitar katha mane . . . sei . . . gitay ye ki kore ye bhagavan janen amra janina, tobe yatatuku bujhte pari. *Gītā* bolchhe, eto sadhan kore kore brahma praptir yajnata labh korbe. (The knowledge of *Gītā* . . . that . . . in the *Gītā* how the Lord knows that we don't know, but as far I can understand. The *Gītā* is saying that, we have to do that much sadhana as we can be qualified to reach brahma ( jnana ).) *brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26) *Tarpar brahma*-bhuta hobe. (Then they will be brahma-bhuta .) *mad*-bhaktiṁ, mad . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Hanuman: Amar bhakti labh korbe. (You will get devotional service of mine.) *Prabhupāda: Ta brahma*-bhuta hobar por. (That is after brahma-bhuta .) Hanuman: Por, por. Samay ache er porer bar . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpore. (Yes after that, after that. We have enough time after this . . . (indistinct) . . . then.) Prabhupāda: Ta kintu er modhye ekta katha holo . . . (But there is a thing into this is . . .) Hanuman: Lila te prabesh korbe. (Will enter the lila .) Mane . . . mane yatodur ei samudra ke na janbe, tatodur se samudrake purnu janena. (That means . . . that means as far he won't know this ocean, he doesn't know that far about this ocean.) Prabhupāda: Na, tatodur jnan purno noy. (No, his knowledge is not full filled yet.) Hanuman: Jnan purno noy. (Knowledge is not fully filled.) *Prabhupāda: Sei jonye, bahunam*-sambhaba,) (That's why, bahunam-sambhaba ,) Hanuman: Māṁ prapadyate . *Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ, bhagavan ke janar probitti holo sei asol jnan. (The will of knowing the Lord is real knowledge.) Hanuman: Māṁ vetti, māṁ vetti . . . Siddhānām siddhānāṁ Prabhupāda: Ah. Hanuman: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ, siddhānām jñānināṁ. Ye param jnan . . . (The topmost knowledge.) Prabhupāda: Siddhānām muktinaṁ . Hanuman: Muktinaṁ. Ye jnan labh kore mukta hoyeche, tader modhyeo keu keu amake jane. (Who has been liberated by gaining knowledge, among of them some of them know me.) Prabhupāda: Eitai Chaitanya Mahaprabhur katha ye, koti jnani modhye ek matra srestha. (This is what Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, among the crore of wise persons, one is great.) *Hanuman: Oi ya byakti sei ekhane ache iyete, (About that person we can find in, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti, abhijānāti .) Eta oi slok ache. Umm . . . iyete, gopika sandarbe, (This is the verse from . . . umm . . . that is, Gopika*-sandarb ,) Hanuman: Onya keu tattva ta janena. (Know one knows this tattva .) Prabhupāda: Janei na. Thik. Sei jonye gopider ye bhajan, seita Mahaprabhu sabcheye baro bhajan boleche. Ye rambhar kashir upasana braja gopi yadyapi ya . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes they don't know. Right. That's why Mahāprabhu said the bhajan of gopis are the top most bhajan . . .) Usse badkar or upasana hey! (Is there any worshiping better than this.) Hanuman: Narad . . . narada sutre narad muni likhche . . . (indistinct) . . . sutre. (Narada . . . Narada wrote in his sutra . . . (indistinct) . . . in his sutra .) Prabhupāda: Ta, eisob bideshira sob grahan korche, ekhon amader edik theke yodi ederke besh, organize bhabe deoa hoy tahole Bharater mangal hobe. Eta apnara sakale mile sahaya korun. Ar to amader oderkichu deoar nei. Amra yodi . . . yodi oder material science dite chai se sambhab noy, sambhab noy. Karan ora eto advance, ye amra 100 years back. O diye kichu hobe na. Ei ye jinista amader nijer sampatti, seta deoa yay. (So, all the foreigners are accepting, now if we give them this organizationally then India will be blessed. All of you help me in this. We have nothing to give them. If we . . . if we want to give them material science then it is not possible, not possible. Because they are so advanced, that we are 100 years back. Nothing will happen with that. This is our own property, so it can be given.) Hanuman: Setai ora chay. (They want it.) Prabhupāda: Setai ora caiche. Ora accept korechilo Bharatvarser ei jinish take. Se jonye to agraha korlo. Ar shudhu oder jonye noy, eta Bharatbashiro ote bisvasta hoya darkar. kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Apnar ya . . . (indistinct) . . . (They want it. They accepted this thing of India. That's why they are interested. And this not only for them. All of you . . .(indistinct) . . .) Hanuman: Amar kache onek taka ache. Amar to boi korar . . . (I have enough money. I want to make a film . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha, oi dukhana thak. (Okay, keep these two.) Hanuman: Amar ekta boi ta hocche hindi te, tate apnar onek kichu. Kirtan . . . My film is in Hindi, so there are many things about you, kirtan . . .) Prabhupāda: Ki boi korchen? What movie are you making?) *Hanuman: Ei Kṛṣṇa*-bhabanamritar parichay. This is the identity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.) Prabhupāda: Oi amader bisaye! (Oh, on us.) Hanuman: Tabe ar ki! (laughs) (Why not?) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Nectar of Devotion*. Ei amader sob boier ekta photograph diyeche. (This is the photograph of all our books have been given.) Hanuman: Ete ache? (Into this?) Prabhupāda: Eita. Record ache, boi ache. Amader record khub bikr hoy. Apnake record pathiye diyechilo na? (This, we have records, we have books. Our records are sold too. They send records to you, no?) You have brought some record here? Yaśodānandana: It's in my other case, two records I have got. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yaśodānandana: Two copies of Govinda . Prabhupāda: Reading them and keep them in the library. Ar Kṛṣṇa boi amader . . . apni amar chobi dekhe khub sukhi hoben, chobi dekhei bikr hoyeche. (And our Kṛṣṇa book . . . you will be pleased to see my picture, those are sold because of the picture.) *In Ratha*-yātrā Festival in one hour we sold about 24 copies. Although it is very highly priced, eight dollars. Mane America te kichu noy eight dollars cheaper, amader deshe eight dollars onek beshi. Tahole ajke anumati den. Ashi apnio bisram korun. (Means, in America, eight dollars is nothing, it is cheaper, In our country eight dollars is much more. So give me permission. I am leaving you take rest.) Yaśodānandana: I gave him one already. Prabhupāda: Gita ele pathiye debo. I will send a *Gītā* when I get one.) (sanskrit) Kṛṣṇake janle ar kichu janbar baki thakbe na, sob hoye jabe. Sampurna Jnan. Accha! (After knowing Kṛṣṇa there is nothing left to know, everything will be done. Complete knowledge.) (end) Conversation -- March 16, 1971, Bombay Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . let's say our needs. But we know people who will buy it somewhere else. But . . . (indistinct) . . . will change. Perhaps we should have our own place of worship. Prabhupāda: Indians . . . (indistinct) . . . students are from all over the world, through birth. We should, when we see that . . . (indistinct) . . . also try for . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not like your country, that velvet road and everywhere there is motel, there is supply of gas and this, that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we'll come with you immediately. Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we'll all come with you now. The only reason we want to remain in Bombay was to purchase vans, trucks. Now I fear, Prabhupāda, is that . . . that we know that Your Divine Grace . . . Prabhupāda: But what . . . where you shall remain? This place is not for . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we won't remain. *Prabhupāda: That man, Jamun, that building, that Sītā*-Rāma . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: . . . they are welcoming us. They are . . . (indistinct) . . . to help when the building is . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are also prepared to give you transport facilities. But it is very away from Bombay. Śyāmasundara: The only reason we were thinking to remain in Bombay for a short time is to get equipment and printing leaflets to pass out in Indian languages along the way while we will travel. Prabhupāda: If you get equipment for traveling, you still you do not know Indian language. How you will preach in the villages? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's right. I think Prabhupāda's right. There's no preaching in . . . Prabhupāda: Villages, you have no scope for preaching . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, only the major cities. Prabhupāda: Major cities, and amongst the enlightened class. Just like last evening we had, they are all enlightened. So unless we get such support, from the mass of people you cannot. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Say if we try to establish temples wherever you go now . . . Prabhupāda: No. Apart from establishing temple, you don’t establish. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just, the saṅkīrtana party will be depleted if every time we go and leave the city we try and leave some men there to open a temple. There won’t be any men left. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This should be a tour of the world, I think, trying to give the whole world an idea of Krsna consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. We were thinking that everywhere we go we could take down names and addresses in great detail, as well as make members throughout the world, and then to retrace our steps later on and open temples. For instance, to come back to Bombay . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, in Bombay we are finding difficulty, forth*-class at the present moment. This is temporary. And that place is not good. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I think it was, that Madanan's place, it is not Madanan's place. It has been wrong place shown. Madanan is very rich man. I think that proprietor . . . you showed me one house? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That place is right place. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And you are shown a wrong place. Devotee: Oh. And there's no one in there. He said there was no one home . . . Prabhupāda: You went to . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . bring the . . . Śyāmasundara: There was no one there . . . Prabhupāda: That place is the right place. Śyāmasundara: There were locks on all the doors. Big locks on every door. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why did they do that? Prabhupāda: That is another cheating? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's a cheating. Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not know what is the policy of this . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lalji. Prabhupāda: Lalji. Devotee: Tomorrow that gentleman . . . Prabhupāda: Why don’t you call him? He cannot be seen. He cannot . . . he did not come. Call . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Call and let him come. Who is it? Who is it? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's this man from Agarwal. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants the list of men who will come. Prabhupāda: Yes, so . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We’re not prepared, though, to do it, unless . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . aur thoda wait karo (. . . wait a little more.) Gurudas: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Hindi me likh de do. Accha. Hindi me . . . (Write it down in Hindi and give to me. Okay in Hindi . . .) that Sītā*-Rāma temple, they are very much anxious to receive us. Gurudas: How long does it take? It doesn’t take that long to get there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: How long does it take to get there? Devotee: Half hour. Gurudas: If . . . if we don’t have . . . Prabhupāda: And they are prepared to give you transport facilities also. Śyāmasundara: But do we . . . do we need all of this equipment for traveling, then? Amplifiers, microphones, tents? Prabhupāda: Traveling equipments, not for Indian villages. Śyāmasundara: No, for towns, for cities. Gurudas: Why do we need tents in cities? Śyāmasundara: Well, if it rains. Camp. Set up camp for big cities? Is that . . . is it better to go . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. You, you can preach in cities. You cannot preach in the villages. Śyāmasundara: Because just like here we are at the mercy of so many people. Only if they provide us can we go into their place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: We shift here, shift there. If we have our tents, we have our own transport, we can find some field or some beach. Prabhupāda: But that is a . . . that is a big job. You have, if you have to fix your tents, and somebody will have to go find out some place where to fix it. Gurudas: Also the machinery, repair it. Prabhupāda: Requires at least one hundred men. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Gurudas: So the priority is the printed literature. That is the priority. Devotee (3): (speaking on phone) Yes, is Lalji there, Shri Lalji? Prabhupāda: Sa . . . Sadajitlal. *Devotee (3): Saja, Sadajitwa*-lal. Prabhupāda: (on phone) Hello. Ah, Swāmījī. Sadajitlalji ko hum chahte hai. Hum to idhar Natanchi Road se bol raha hun. (I want Sadajitlalji. I am speaking from Natanchi Road.) Swāmījī, Swami Bhaktivedanta. Swami Bhaktivedanta. Bhaktivedanta. Hello. Hello. Boliye? Nahi hai . . . accha. (Please talk. Not there . . . okay.) (to devotees) He is not. Gurudas: Not there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Call his residence now. That's . . . that's his business phone. Should I try his other business phone or . . . no, they're in the same room I think. It seems to me he should have come to visit you today, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. He did not come? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. *Gurudas: Besides, in age of Kali*-yuga, most of the land is taken up. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (referring to phone) Both are engaged. So, do you like the idea of traveling all over the world, Prabhupāda? Having a full kirtana party travel with you? Prabhupāda: That is our original idea. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, we can open temples later on . . . Prabhupāda: Temple, that temple, if somebody comes forward to give us temple, then think of temple. We cannot take responsibility opening a temple. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can . . . not for this mission. Later on. Later on we can come back for that purpose specifically. Just like when we sent someone to Berlin to open a temple, we can send men to Bombay, to this place. But for now, if we can travel widely around the world, throughout the Middle East, Africa, South America, go to Europe . . . Prabhupāda: This man dealing, that was apparatively nice. He did see even the whole day, and for him I stayed. And wherever there is phone he is not there, he is not there. And he is waiting for the list. That is a perplexity. If you want to go out, then give out the names. But this man's dealing is not very satisfactory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no doubt that if . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You see, if we open up the temples now, on our way around, traveling around, then it limits our ability to travel. But if we stick to our principles, simply traveling and preaching widely and distributing great literature, in great, great quantity, and making many, many members throughout the world, then we'll have many contacts for later on, when we can go back and open temples. There'll be many contacts. Just like Your Divine Grace, Prabhupāda, you have made many contacts, so that now, coming back from India, immediately there are many people we can go and see who you already know. Prabhupāda: Oh, that seeing is useless. Now this man is waiting so long. What to do? Śyāmasundara: Do you think we should take advantage of being in Bombay to see Mr. Birla, people like that, for some financial help? Prabhupāda: But where you will stay? Śyāmasundara: Well, if there are only four, we can stay someplace, any place. Only four men. Prabhupāda: Then give him the names and we will stay . . . Gurudas: Also printing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is our purpose in staying behind now, Prabhupāda? This we don't understand. What . . . that's our difficulty. Gurudas: When we need some funds, wasn't the reason that you didn’t come from Calcutta to here is because no one arranged for the trip? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not funds that are needed. We don't require funds to travel. I am . . . Prabhupāda: Then let . . . let us go out to Amritsar. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's our program to be out there. That's what is confusing me, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's . . . I don’t know if Your Divine Grace would rather travel or to open temples. I, I am confused by that, because I don't know whether I should be thinking about my . . . you know, my attention should be on. Prabhupāda: Which? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The three of us would like to work in a very organized way, but we don't know how to place our, our, our efforts together, because we are not certain if we should be thinking in terms of establishing a center or in terms of just widely spreading for a shorter time. Prabhupāda: No, widely spreading, that is our main business. You think in that way. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Prabhupāda: Temple, if you have got sufficient nice men to manage temple, then you will keep it just like Gauḍīya Maṭha—that getting some money by begging and eating and laying down. Gurudas: Yes, the men have to step forward. If they don't, it's useless. If they don't step forward . . . we are preachers, and if they don't step forward seriously enough, it's very difficult. What about printing? That's the thing that's on my mind. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Gurudas: I would like to hand out leaflets, if possible. Hand out something. Do you think that is . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: . . . a worthwhile thing? Prabhupāda: What's that? Gurudas: To get some printed material that we can hand out? Prabhupāda: Printed materials, thousands, they are giving us so many books. So many people come and give . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 18, 1971, Bombay Prabhupāda: Wherever there is sun, there is sunlight, immediately. Where there is light, immediately there is illumination. Just like a drop of poison. You just take a drop of poison; as soon as it touches the tongue, immediately it expands all over the body and it make the whole blood, water, dead. How it expands, a small grain of potassium cyanide? Simply a grain, immediately, second. If a material thing can have so much effect immediately, the spiritual atom cannot do that? That is called science. *Similarly, the biggest spiritual identity, Kṛṣṇa, He can become all*-pervading. We are particle spiritual, spark. We have got limited power to expand . . . yena sarvam idaṁ tatam ( BG 2.17), and become immediately expanded throughout My body. And He is unlimitedly big. So how much His consciousness is distributed all over the universe, sarva-jña . Therefore Kṛṣṇa is not abhijña . Svarāṭ . Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheśv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This example is nice. A grain of potassium cyanide is sufficient. There is no taste. The chemical characteristic of potassium cyanide, they have not mentioned the taste, because as soon as there is taste—finished. They cannot . . . (laughter) He cannot say whether it is pungent or sweet. (laughter) finished. So there is no taste. (pause) (break) (end) Conversation -- March 21, 1971, Bombay Prabhupāda: You have tried to follow the principles which we are following. Now here, all your associates, they have joined us? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that . . . that's nice. You are welcome. Where is Sai? Devotee: Oh, he's in Honolulu right now. Prabhupāda: So, what is his opinion? He wants to keep himself separate? Devotee: What from? Prabhupāda: From us, from our institution? Devotee: He says . . . he told me several months ago, "I'm going to go where I rightfully belong, and that's at the lotus feet of my spiritual master." He said that, "I have these disciples, so they are my responsibility, and I cannot make this step until these devotees are fixed up enough so that they won't go back to māyā ." And he says this is possible, because this is where he belongs. So he called our devotees that . . . he said that he wanted to please you he would be willing to transfer to you. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So, I think once he wrote me letter, and I replied. You remember? Devotee: I heard that. Yes, I saw . . . Prabhupāda: I think it was from that time, during . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Yes. I saw that letter. It was given to us in New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: The thing is that we are strictly following the disciplic succession, and so, dovetailing. It doesn't matter if he works independently on this principle, but a dovetailing will give him strength, spiritual strength. So best thing will be to amalgamate, and follow our principles and work from there. Officially, he has to accept a spiritual master. That is necessary. So has he got any objection? *Devotee: No. He's . . . he left Honolulu first and he told me, he told all the devotees he was going to take the lowest position in the temple. He was going to surrender at the feet of your devotees. So he flew to San Francisco. Over fifty devotees went to different temples. The first night, thirty*-five devotees left. Six went to San Francisco with Sai. And he came back after a few days, and went to stay with Gaurasundara at his . . . Prabhupāda: They're, all your brothers, they have shaven heads. Shaven heads. No? Devotee: Yes. They are all . . . Prabhupāda: All? Devotee: The first morning Sai told all the devotees, at night, and the next morning, he came out a little bit, our first meeting in the morning with his long hair, and then he went back to his room and came out again with his head shaved. He said: "Anyone who wants to follow my example, please do so." And every boy . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: . . . every boy shaved his head immediately. Prabhupāda: I think Sai was present in a meeting in Honolulu last time, and your all members, some of them were present. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But he did not talk with me at that time. I did not know who was Sai, but Govinda dāsī told me that he was present. Devotee (3): I think in London . . . (indistinct) . . . received one letter from Govinda dāsī mentioning about Sai. And so then . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So try to understand that whatever we are doing, it is not concocted; it is authorized. We are following the principles authorized. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ ( CC Madhya 17.186). The spiritual life is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ . It is very confidential, and nobody can find it out without the help of ācārya . Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Therefore, the real path is to follow the footsteps of great ācāryas , and . . . *Indian man: They have come from this . . . that Ṭhākura . . . (indistinct) . . . they are engaged with this Bhāgavata*-saptāha , after pūjā . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man: They have . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . will not be so effective. Indian man: Okay. So, can we keep in the morning, because regularly they get the time in the morning now. Prabhupāda: Hah? Indian man: We will get the time in the morning, after coming from the . . . this kīrtana . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Indian man: . . . at about nine we will be returning here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Then there is no program officially. And if you like, we will keep at ten o'clock. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have already fixed up from five to seven. *Indian man: Five to seven we are already fixed there with Sanātana*-sevāsaṅga. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: So you want more next time? Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man: No. Prabhupāda: That five to seven is sufficient. Indian man: Yes. So . . . Prabhupāda: Within that . . . Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . you make some arrangement . . . Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . for hearing from me . . . Indian man: All right. Prabhupāda: . . . the teachings of Bhāgavata . . . Indian man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: . . . or Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Indian man: I see. Prabhupāda: . . . continually for some days. Indian man: All right. Prabhupāda: That will be nice, effective. Indian man: So, we will direct these bhajanas , and . . . Prabhupāda: Bhajanas ? Indian man: We will direct sometime. Prabhupāda: Bhajana will be in the beginning, as we have done, kīrtana . And then at the last, class. In the middle . . . Indian man: Middle only. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian man: You, you will, if . . . that is we'll do in some sort. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do that. So, practically you have decided to follow our principles. Now do it. Everything will be all right. *Devotee: But, there's . . . there's some confusion amongst many of the devotees who have taken kṛṣṇa*-yoga from you, because for so long, you know, we've been worshiping Sai as God. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not good. Devotee: Yes, I recognize that. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Says in the scriptures that . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Devotees should treat the spiritual master as God. Prabhupāda: Treating as . . . (indistinct) Devotee: But this does not mean that we are saying that Sai is God. Prabhupāda: Just like my disciples give me royal throne and treats me just like a king, but that does not mean I am king. Devotee: No, that's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They offer me respect. That is their duty. But if, because they offer me respect in that way, if I say then I have become Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. Devotee: Yes, I understand, though it's not to say that he was saying . . . Prabhupāda: It's their duty to offer me respect, as much respect Kṛṣṇa is offered; more than that. That is their duty. But my duty is not that declare that I have become Kṛṣṇa. Then it is Māyāvādī. Then it is gone, everything is gone. Spiritual master is servant God, and Kṛṣṇa is God, and because in the absolute field there is no distinction between the servant and the master . . . there is distinction. The servant always knows that "I am servant," and master knows that "I am master," although still there is no distinction. That is absolute. *Then Vaikuṇṭha, all the inhabitants are just like Nārāyaṇa, and in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, all the cowherds boys, they are as good as Kṛṣṇa. They do not know that Kṛṣṇa is . . . they love Kṛṣṇa intensely, without knowing that He is God, and that is required. The love is required. Not that one has to know Kṛṣṇa is God. God or no God, we love Kṛṣṇa, unconditionally. That is required. Although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, but the vṛndāvana*-vāsī , they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God, but their love for Kṛṣṇa is so intense, that makes them perfect. That is required. *Premā pum*-artho mahān (Caitanya-manjusa). We have to increase our love, I mean to say, so intensely. There is, Vṛndāvana, inhabitants Vṛndāvana, even Nārāyaṇa they did not care so much. They offered respect. They love Kṛṣṇa so. And that is required. Not to understand what is God, and not to become God, but to love Kṛṣṇa. But you cannot understand God, neither you can understand Kṛṣṇa. That is because Kṛṣṇa is so unlimited. He, He, He becomes just, just like human being, human child, that is His grace; but it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. If one says that, "I understood Kṛṣṇa," he is another fool. (laughs) Nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. But still, one has to intensify his love for Kṛṣṇa without any deviation. That is perfection. So it is very good that you have started the Kṛṣṇa Yoga Society. The name, name Kṛṣṇa was there; that has benefited you. Somehow or other, you developed some love for Kṛṣṇa. That has made you to come to us. That very conception that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord has benefited you. Only that qualification. So now you have come, you take it seriously, and according to regulative principle, then your life is perfect. But if Sai is still thinking of himself as God, that's not very good. Devotee: I think he was only saying we should . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody can be God. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . He was never claiming that. Prabhupāda: This is Māyāvāda. Devotee: . . . we were following the Vedic injunction of . . . of treating the spiritual master . . . Prabhupāda: We are, we are, we are in quality one with God. The substance as we are, the same as God. In that way we are not different, so far substance, just like a chemical composition, that is one. One can study Kṛṣṇa by studying His personal propensities. Just like the characteristic of the father is manifested in the characteristic of the son, or the son's characteristic is manifested in the father, similarly, all the characteristics of Kṛṣṇa are with . . . are with us. Indian man: Namaskāra . Prabhupāda: Aiye . Indian man: They wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . they, they said they wanted to go out of . . . (indistinct) . . . station, so I came just now because . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . only, because we accepted Kṛṣṇa, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). The devotional service . . . one can enter into the devotional service by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and guru . Guru*-kṛṣṇa . So one who is sincerely thinking of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa gives him good spiritual master. And then, with the cooperation of spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, the devotee becomes enhanced in spiritual life. *Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja . You have read our Teachings of Lord Caitanya ? In there you will find both. So one has to serve, parallel, guru and Kṛṣṇa. To serve Kṛṣṇa under the direction of guru , that is perfection. And . . . and . . . and treat spiritual master as Kṛṣṇa, but not to commit mistake that he is Kṛṣṇa To love spiritual master as good as Kṛṣṇa, that's nice, but this is Māyāvāda if one thinks that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa, or spiritual master declares himself that, "I am Kṛṣṇa." That is very offensive. That will check further progress in spiritual life. So I will reply this letter. It is very good. Welcome. You are welcome. You are sincere soul, and follow these regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then officially we shall accept you, and you work jointly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is necessary throughout the whole world. So Sai is intelligent boy, you are intelligent; take it seriously, and reclaim the confused boys, those who are passing as hippies. Try to convince them about the importance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will be saved. Your country will be saved. The world will be saved. People will be happy. It is a nice movement. Try to understand. You have got immense work to do. These fallen souls, these misguided, confused boys and girls, I have got every sympathy for them. They have been misguided, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially meant for them. Let them take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will get what they are searching after. These confused boys and girls, they are searching after something happy. They will find it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. So I'll especially request your group to teach these confused boys passing as hippies. So many thousands of boys and girls, especially in America. Devotee: Especially. Prabhupāda: Especially. Especially in our . . . I have seen. So try to convince them. That is Kṛṣṇa's service. You, you are practically experienced from your past life to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you can better convince them. So I will write to Sai, you also write, and combined together just try to reclaim these confused souls. That will be your service, great service. Don't be satisfied that, "We have got now Kṛṣṇa. Our business is finished." No. You will reclaim your brothers, and that is greater service. So conjointly do it, and if Sai comes here, I shall also request him. We have got very, I mean to say, responsible task, on behalf of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to reclaim these fallen souls. Do it. That will be very nice. Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased. Devotee: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Try to reclaim, save these boys, save these souls. You see? Otherwise, by laws of nature, their life will be spoiled. Law of nature is very strict, stringent. If you develop animal propensities, you will have to become animal. You do not become—you will get another facility, by animal body. You are always spirit soul, but because you desire like that, your desire will produce a body like that. So these laws of nature is so subtle, as soon as you desire something to become, "Yes, here it is." So your best service to Kṛṣṇa will be to save these hippies. Somehow or other convince them that best thing, our process is very simple. Somehow or other call them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, let them hear and give them prasādam , that's all. You . . . you remain pure, and your purity of service, your association, will influence them. If you remain pure. And then they will gradually come. *All over the world. In India they have become Communists, Naxalites, but I have studied: they are all good souls. Soul always good. Simply they are misguided. Soul cannot be not good, because the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is all*-good; therefore, constitutionally, every soul is good. But by demonic association they become bad. (aside) Accha . Where is that cloth? I forgot. That one Madrasi gentleman get. You put it in this closet. Devotee: I'll put it in that closet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Chambur . Prabhupāda: Chambur . Devotee: Certainly in the. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . that's all. Devotee: I have a question about the position of the devotees now they are living in ISKCON temples. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Just like, when Sai told the devotees that we were all going to be joining ISKCON . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. You live just like my other disciples are living. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then I shall initiate you. That's all. I have given them standard by instruction and by my books. So live according to that, and try to serve Kṛṣṇa by reclaiming these confused souls passing as hippies. That will be great service to the society, to your country and to Kṛṣṇa. Try to save them. Woman devotee: These devotees, already they are living in a very simple . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. Woman devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So issue instruction that treat them very nicely; they are good souls. Immediately issue. Where . . . where . . . wherever they have gone, you issue the letter. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Woman devotee: Śyāmasundara has written I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very—Kṛṣṇa's grace that you have come to us. Because you, somehow or other, you developed a little attachment for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given you the opportunity to come to us. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. As soon as He sees a little attachment for Him, immediately gives all facilities. So they are coming to us—another indication that this ISKCON movement is approved by Kṛṣṇa. Those who are sincere, they are coming, they are coming. So keep it very pure, then all of you will be benefited. Yes. He can write to Sai. I will also write. What is address now? Devotee: He's staying at the ISKCON temple, 2016 . . . (indistinct) . . . street Śyāmasundara: He's staying with Gaurasundara and Govinda dāsī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gaurasundara has written? Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: That's nice. So I shall one . . . dictate one letter, tomorrow. Immediately post. It is very good that you have come, and we are also pleased. Kṛṣṇa is pleased, everyone is pleased. Yes. The greatest disservice is to misguide. That people are in misery, so*-called rascal leaders and svāmīs , simply they do not know what is the end of life. Simply misguide. Misguiding also . . . people want to be misguided. You see? They want confirmation of their misdeeds. Whatever misdeeds they are doing, they go to somebody, and if it is confirmed, oh, then is good sermon. (laughs) Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman devotee: That is like Sai Baba. We were in the temple one time, there was so much Sai Baba literature and his testimonial, and the people wanted to do nonsense, and they went to Sai Baba, and he said: "Yes, you can do it," and then they would say: "Yes, Sai Baba said I could drink tea," or whatever. Devotee: So what is our position towards Sai? This is where, brings great confusion in the minds of the devotees. Immediately they ask. Devotee (2): Because they used to accept him as spiritual master, so now, now that's all finished . . . Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (2): . . . so, what is their relationship . . .? Prabhupāda: Let, let Sai accept me as spiritual master, and you remain Sai's disciple, but be initiated properly. Or it is Sai's duty to deliver all his followers to me. That will be very nice. As he has surrendered all his money, similarly, he can surrender all his followers. Devotee (3): It's like in the army. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. And then it is very good—for him and for his followers. Devotee: He wrote this fall about that to the devotees. "Shaved heads. Now we are all disciples of Prabhupāda. I can no longer treat you externally as my disciples, because of the negative reaction I will incur . . . (indistinct) . . . if you are internally attached, that is fine. Please me by serving Prabhupāda and his devotees. Prabhupāda must first okay my taking on disciples. He may or he may not. I will follow his orders. He tells me to kill you all, I will kill you." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Very, very good letter. That's very good. So I shall write to him. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Śikṣā*-guru or dīkṣā-guru . Initiated . . . initiator master and instructor master. So you can treat him as your instructor master. That is allowed. He will understand. I shall write. Now you live as you are living, everything will be pure. So this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and thinking of Kṛṣṇa has made you so much advanced. They are chanting. (laughs) Devotee: They chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. I always indirectly encouraged. I asked Gargamuni (laughing) why he is asking whether we shall supply coat? And why not? They are chanting, why should we not supply? They are purchasing books regular. Why not? So let them associate with our views and ideas. *Devotee: So I was teaching mystical yoga for a long time when I read your books, and I immediately stopped. I was teaching kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , kriyā-yoga , these processes. One day he came from Oahu to the āśrama on Maui, "There'll be no more meditation. From now on just sit and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's nice. That is the . . . Devotee: No more fasting. Prabhupāda: . . . best, best meditation. Very . . . Kṛṣṇa has helped you; now you stick to these principles. Very good. I shall reply this letter. All right. Devotees: (offer obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness method. The more you will sing, the more you will become satisfied. It is very good that you have come. Now combine together. Just save these confused boys. You have got immense work in the Western countries. Immense work. You write Sai. He is very intelligent boy. You are also intelligent boy. Combine together. And the plan is very simple. Somehow or other call them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give prasādam , that's all. (break) (end) Interview -- May 14, 1971, Sydney Prabhupāda: . . . (laughs) And just to see my disciples here, center. They have got a center here. So for them I visit my centers all over the world. So for that purpose I have come, as well as to let you know more about our philosophy, if you are interested. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about it, please? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to give the human society a chance for solving all the problems of their life. In the present context of civilization they are interested in the bodily comforts. Whatever scientific advancement you are making, just to give more comfort to the body. Unfortunately, none of us is the body. We are spirit soul. We are changing different bodies, as you can see in our presence there are so many living entities, and this body can be changed to any one of them. Today I am in human body, tomorrow I may be in the body of a dog. So this cycle of changing body is going on. The modern science has no knowledge about these things. They are simply identifying with the body. So according to Vedic civilization, anyone who is identifying with the body is not a human being; he is an ass. Go means cow and kharaḥ means ass. Such a person is either a cow or an ass who is identifying this body as self. This body is a bag of bones and flesh, blood and urine. So I am not this body. I am within this body. But people are identifying with this body. So this is the grossest type of ignorance, and we are trying to dissipate this ignorance and bring people to real consciousness, real identity. And that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: Now you mentioned some particular problems . . . (indistinct) . . . people with, and then you spoke of a general problem of the body as opposed to the spiritual. Prabhupāda: Well, when the particular problem is this repeated . . . change of body, there is no science or university. Everyone wants to lead the medical science. It is time to give greatest relief from disease, but they cannot stop disease or death. That is the problem. Although the problem is there, they are trying to solve, but they have no means. Here is the means. Interviewer: You mean, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the means. There are prominent problems: birth, death, old age and disease. There is no science which has solved these problems. Nobody wants to die, but death is there. They are trying to stop increase of population, birth but the birth is there. And the medical science is giving us good medicine but they cannot stop disease, neither death. These are the problems. Why they are neglecting these problems? What is their remedy for these problems? Is there any remedy for these four things? Interviewer: Then what can Kṛṣṇa consciousness do about that? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a great science one has to learn, how to make these problems solved. But here is the medicine, or here is the solution for all these problems. Interviewer: But how can Kṛṣṇa consciousness solve them? Prabhupāda: How, that is . . . one has to learn it. We say how one becomes passed M.A. examination? That is not a thing to be learned in half an hour or fifteen minutes. There is a science; you have to undergo training, as these these boys and girls are going under training. You have to come to us; you have to try to learn what is the subject matter, and you have to undergo the process. But from the examples . . . Or we have got volumes of books written on this matter, so you have to learn from those books. You have to undergo practical training, and then you will learn how to. It is not such a trifle question that in ten minute interview I can explain. Interviewer: Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness sort of achieved after a period through application and study? Prabhupāda: No. It is simply agreement. The process begins—to accept God first of all and to surrender to God. But nobody is prepared to surrender to God, neither they are prepared to accept God. That is the difficulty. But as soon as one accepts that there is God, God is there and I am subordinate, and my business is to surrender unto Him, then immediately he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that is not very easy thing; people will not agree to this. Therefore training required, association required. But the method is so simple it can be achieved in one second. But that nobody is accepting that method. But if one accepts, that method will be a business of one minute. It is not difficult. God is there, that's a fact—you are here, that's a fact. But the surrender is not there. And to come to the surrendering point requires training, agreement. Interviewer: Are you happy with the way the mission's going in Australia, the center? Devotee: (explaining question) "Are you happy with the way the mission is going in Australia, our activities?" Prabhupāda: Well, after all, this is a difficult job, because to accept God or to know God, that is very difficult job. Out of many thousands of people are anxious, one may be very much anxious to know what is the highest perfection of life. And those who have attained the perfection of life, out of many thousands of them, one may know what is God actually. So to know God actually is not a very easy job. So those who are coming to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are very fortunate, because they are not in the category of ordinary men. They are serious to know about God. Therefore you cannot find in our group many thousands of people, only selected, fortunate people. So . . . but anyone can become fortunate, provided he agrees that, "There is God, and I must submit to God." That's not . . . but that mentality is very rare to be found. It has to be created. Therefore you will find not very many followers of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But one who is following he is very fortunate. Interviewer: How many centers are there altogether, then? How many have you opened personally, yourself? *Devotee: Fifty*-two. Interviewer: You've opened all of them? Devotee: Yes. Interviewer: I see. *Prabhupāda: Fifty*-two outside India, but in India there are many thousands. Interviewer: I see. And what specifically will you do in Australia? How long will you be here for, and what will you do while you are here? Prabhupāda: Well, I am going from Australia day after tomorrow. I simply came to see my disciples, how they are doing; to give them direction, further direction to improve. That's all. But if the Australian people like to hear me, I invite any scientist, any philosopher to understand. But I don't think they are interested. Interviewer: Why do you suppose that is? Prabhupāda: What is that? Interviewer: Why do you suppose they are not interested? Prabhupāda: Because they are too much materially involved with this bodily concept. They think this body is everything. Therefore we must give. Just like I went to the beach: many young men, they were stout and strong, walking, running. They are interested in this body. They are not interested in the spiritual subject matter. That is the training they have got. Nobody is interested. We are creating interest on behalf of God. That is our business. We are servant of God. We are trying to save people from the cycle of repetition of birth and death in different varieties or species of life. But even the great scientists, great philosophers they do not want to understand this science. What can we do? Interviewer: Have you found this attitude also in other areas that you have opened centers? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they are interested, how we have opened so many centers? There are interested persons, but their number is very little. It is not that zero, but many persons are interested. We are selling our books. We are selling our magazines. We are recruiting members, and they are dedicating their life for this cause. But it is not like a political movement, that you speak some jugglery of words and many thousands of people come and join. It is a great science. Only cool*-headed, fortunate men can understand. Interviewer: Tell me, you talk about the spiritual and how we have neglected this with our emphasis on material things, but what place is there for the material things? Prabhupāda: We are not neglecting material. Just like you are taking care of your body, I am also taking care of my body. But the difference is that I am not thinking that I am this body, but others, they are thinking that they are this body. That is the problem. Just like if you are taking service from your car, so you don't identify yourself with the car. But you take care of the car to take service from it. Similarly, we are taking service from this body because we are living, so I must eat or I must sleep. It is not that we are not eating or not sleeping, but our eating is different from ordinary eating. We discriminate eating. We don't eat so many things. We simply eat things which may keep my body just fit for understanding and executing this mission of life. That's all. *Let's take for example we don't take meat, we don't take eggs, fish, we don't take liquor or any sorts of intoxicants, even up to the cigarette, coffee, tea, because we know these things are superfluous. Nobody learns to smoke from the beginning of life, but the child requires to eat something. That's a fact. But it doesn't require to smoke. So these are artificial things. So we have to minimize the non*-necessary things. Interviewer: But does the child, for example, require to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Every human being is given the chance by nature's way. You are given this human form of body, civilized man with developed consciousness, to understand these problems of your life. The animals cannot understand. You have come here because you are human being. The dog is not coming, the cat is not coming, because they are animals. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for the human being. So every human being not only shall take care of this body but should take care of his problems, because he is eternal—he is changing body after body, and that is very botheration, and there is no guarantee what sort of body you are going to get next. Even if you are going to get body next life, you must have a better body. Or the best thing is that you must have an eternal body. If such solution is there, why the human society should neglect it? That is their foolishness. So we are trying to give this information to the human society, but they are so callous, they are so bodily conscious, they are not very much serious about it. Interviewer: Thank you . . . (break) Prabhupāda: The child is changing body to boy. The boy is changing his body to youth. But young man does not like to change his body to old age. Rather, the old man wants to come back to his youthful ages. (break) So similarly, nobody wants to die, to change this body also, but that is being forced. But they do not take it as problem. How nonsense they are. I did not want to change my body from youthful to this old age, neither I want to give up this body. Even a very old man, the doctor says that, "It is hopeless now," but still they have to find out some medicine to save him. Just see. This is the danger, that I don't want this; still they do not think it as problem. Such a foolish civilization. I don't want old age, I don't want die, but death is forced upon me, old age is forced, and there is no solution, and they are declaring themselves as scientists, philosophers, advanced. They are avoiding the major problem, and still their problem is civilization, advancement of knowledge. Just see their stupidity. There is a problem, big problem, and they cannot solve it, and still they are proud of their advancement of knowledge. How much foolish they are, just consider. And we have to deal with all these rascals and fools, so there must be hard labor. Because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. Success or failure, that's not our business. Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." We have to preach this cult. We surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, and you be saved from the problems of your life. That is our business. They may not hear it—that is up to them—but as servant of Kṛṣṇa we have to push on this movement. Devotee: If they are hearing, Srila Prabhupada. Somehow or other they are hearing. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, any sane man will hear. But the major portion of the so*-called leaders in the society, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . and still they are proud. They cannot make a solution, and still they are very much proud of their education, their social status. Just see the illusion. Devotee: World of names. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: World of names. Prabhupāda: What can be done? But we have to do our business, despite all hindrances, all obstacles, because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is the thing. We have to remain faithful to our master. We don't mind whether ones taking this philosophy or not, that doesn't matter. We have to try our best. But as soon as this service is done with some selfish motive, personal interest, then it is spoilt. Then it is spoilt. Devotee: Our success is our surrender, and not our . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Our success is our surrender. Prabhupāda: Sometimes we get honor. Just like I have become spiritual master; I am getting honor, I am getting respect. But if I want to utilize your service for my personal comfort and do not actually preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I am another fool. That's all. But as soon as you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, your business is done. My business is to introduce you to Kṛṣṇa, to convince you some way or other that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you surrender unto Him and you will be happy. That is my business. Devotee: Thank you very much for dragging me back. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that business I must do, and I have dedicated my life for that business. That is my interest. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu . . . (BG 18.69). Kṛṣṇa said: "Anyone who is trying to introduce this philosophy to My devotees, he is My great . . . dear to Me." So in order to become recognized by Kṛṣṇa, it is my duty to do my best to introduce as many persons as possible to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I give you the information. I don't say that, "You surrender unto me," but I say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender to My devotee." Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa is very kind. Kṛṣṇa is very obliged. Kṛṣṇa, if you render service to Kṛṣṇa one percent, He is willing to give you protection fifty percent. That is Kṛṣṇa. He is great. Just like a great man, if you give him little service, he rewards you more than you expect. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa? He is the greatest of all. If you give Him little service, He gives you more than you expect. That is a fact. But not that because He will give me something more than expectation I am giving service. That mentality is not good. I should render my service in all circumstances, without any expectation of profit or return. A pure devotee does not ask any return from Kṛṣṇa. Rather, a pure devotee refuses, even if he is offered by Kṛṣṇa, because that will be business, that I do something for some return. Prahlāda Mahārāja flatly refused in the presence of Nṛsiṁhadeva. "Sir, You are . . . we are so prone to accept this material benediction, and Your great personality is offering. So this is a great allurement. Kindly save me. I am not a merchandise man, that I want something from You." That was his answer. He refused. You see? God wanted to give him something and he refused, and He was pleased, "Oh, here is My real servant." But He was given everything, but by his that refusal, He was very much pleased. Not that He was offended, "Oh, I am offering, and you are not accepting?" No. He was very much pleased. Devotee: And . . . (indistinct) . . . with each other. Prabhupāda: "Here is a real servant." That is the reciprocation between devotee and Kṛṣṇa. And devotee does not require anything. Why it shall be? Kṛṣṇa gives him all protection. Why should we bother Him, "Now give me protection"? My asking Him protection is the greatest job? No. If He wants to give me protection, without asking He will do that. Why should I ask Him and make my position degraded? The devotee never asks to Kṛṣṇa anything. He simply asks for the opportunity to serve His servant. Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "Give me opportunity to serve Your servant." He doesn't want to serve Him directly. Devotee: What was it that that Lord Caitanya was saying? How does that go in Sanskrit? That He's a servant . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Caitanya as a teacher, He is teaching us that gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80): "I am a servant of the servant of the servant of the master of the gopīs, the maintainer of the gopīs." Kṛṣṇa is never directly approached. (break) . . . break, and one day death comes and kicks on his back and he will be finished off. Now if you are so brain, just try to save yourself. Where is your brain? Or make another brain like you, so that at the time of your death the brain will act—upon your brain . . . (indistinct) . . . he is dependent on God, Kṛṣṇa. Still, he'll not agree. Kṛṣṇa will come as death. He may come, just He is death. Kṛṣṇa says, "To such rascals I come as death." Then they will believe that there is God. *(break) So far . . . so far we are concerned, they are as good as an ordinary man, because they do not know actually the real problem of life. But they are puffed*-up, "Oh, we are . . . (indistinct) . . ." *(break) . . . problems of life, then your science is perfect. Simply jugglery*-of-words theories, what will help? Stop death, stop birth, stop disease, stop old age, then I shall understand that your scientist. That is not in your command. If the problems are there, real problem, then what is the use of this science? Simply by advertisement? *So*-called comfortable life for few years, and then becoming a dog and hog, a tree? It is possibility. If your next life you become a tree, you stand up for ten thousand years in one place. Would you like? In childhood the teacher says: "Stand up on the bench," that was so much troublesome. (break) (end) Radio Interview -- June 0, 1971, Los Angeles *Interviewer: . . . India, the headquarters in the United States and the world is now Los Angeles, California. His Divine Grace comes to us, a svāmī from Calcutta in India, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as it is known in this country, and I understand in one hundred other places in the non*-Communist world at this point, is a movement to cleanse the soul and make life on earth, as our guest would tell us, a more peaceful way of living. These people believe in reincarnation and many other philosophies, and as many of our listeners will know, it is also a very controversial movement. We will start for fourteen, fifteen minutes, and take it from there. I will hold the microphone back and forth. Jim, please. Now since I am not capable of pronouncing your Kṛṣṇa name, I want you to . . . I will introduce you as Your Divine Grace, and what I said here, that is for the producer. Words to that effect. And then I will ask you to give me your name as the head of this movement. Was there anyone before you that was in the Kṛṣṇa movement? Do you . . . are you succeeding someone? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a disciplic succession. Interviewer: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Disciplic succession. Interviewer: No, but before you? Prabhupāda: Yes, before me, my spiritual master was preaching. Interviewer: Oh, all right, I will ask you that. Your spiritual master was this name? Okay. Prabhupāda: My spiritual master, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Interviewer: And was he also from Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Interviewer: I see, okay. Syamasundara: The disciplic succession means that it goes back for thousands of years, passed down from master to disciple. Interviewer: How long would you say that the movement has been in existence for? Syamasundara: Five thousand years. Interviewer: Hm! Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes, when He spoke Bhagavad*-gītā . *Interviewer: All right. I’ll try to be very careful, and we will do it. When I start. For more than five thousand years in this world of ours there has been a movement emanating from India known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We have come to speak with His Divine Grace, the man that is the disciple, a descendant of many that preceded him in the Kṛṣṇa movement. He comes to us from Calcutta. In North America in Los Angeles is now the world headquarters for the Kṛṣṇa movement. Hare Kṛṣṇa, as many of our listeners know, is somewhat of a controversial form of belief or religion or philosophy, because on the streets of America and many other the cities of the world, they give their chant, and they speak to the passer*-by, trying to convince and tell them about what they are chanting about, what they believe in, and their philosophy. So His Divine Grace will be our guest for the next few minutes as we chat with him here at this location and will tell us as much as he can about his beliefs and philosophy. Your Divine Grace, you come to us from Calcutta, and at this point in time you are on your way back to your home city, and having visited many cities in America and your world headquarters in Los Angeles, California. I thought if you will, please tell our listeners throughout this country, this USA, about yourself, and I would like first perhaps to start with the question: help me with your name, in the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami. Interviewer: And of course, that means the . . . your name, but of course you are a svāmī , which is a counterpart to the highest form of disciple there could be. Prabhupāda: Yes, svāmī means the master of senses. Generally people, they are servant of senses. So when one becomes '' svāmī , it means he is master of the senses. Interviewer: Now as the head of the Kṛṣṇa movement here on earth at this time, we understand that you follow many others—as we said at the outset, this is thousands of years old, emanating in India. So you are then, for all practical purposes, one in many directing this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, I am one of them. From Kṛṣṇa there are many disciples’ branches. Just as the original tree, and then there are branches, there are twigs, leaves, flowers. Similarly we have expanded in various places. And I was ordered by my spiritual master to come to the Western world. So I came first in New York and started this movement in 1966. Since then, it has spread all over the world. Interviewer: Yet the work of Kṛṣṇa is being better known throughout America today. Would you say that since 1966 here in America you have gained more favor than we’ll say disfavor in the Press; that the average person that does not know about the work? Prabhupāda: No, I have been favorably received, even by Christian priests. They also like me, because I am spreading God consciousness. Interviewer: In the work of Kṛṣṇa we understand that not only are you people vegetarians, you believe in legal marriage, you believe in the home and family. There are many other principles. Would you outline for practical purposes what the Kṛṣṇa movement really is? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa movement is really meant for making the human society a divine culture. Interviewer: Yes, but it goes we understand it is from within; the movement itself helps, we understand, cleanse the soul and make we on earth ready for our next dimension. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is compulsory. You believe or not believe, as you have changed so many bodies from your babyhood to childhood to boyhood to youth*-hood, then old-aged man, then naturally next life is when this body is finished, you get another body and begin your life. Interviewer: And it does not necessarily mean that you return as a human being today. You might return as an animal or some other subject. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are 8,400,000 species of life. So according to your desire and according to your activities, you get your next life. That is completely in the hands of nature. Interviewer: The movement of nature, as you just pointed out, Your Divine Grace, would indicate then that you place your hands in Kṛṣṇa, which in a counterpart in the Christian world is a . . . is much like Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, Jesus came, appeared, as the son of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa appeared as the Supreme Person, God, Himself. *Interviewer: One of the things that strikes us as a very important point that you can, I am sure, clarify: Why is it that the Kṛṣṇa movement goes to the public in the form of street chants and . . . why do you not let the movement grow from the so*-called conventional type of religion? Prabhupāda: Because people are so much forgetful of Kṛṣṇa, or God. They require to be reminded, and this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is transcendental vibration. If we chant on the street or loudly, whoever hears this sound, he becomes purified, cleansed of the dirty things from his heart. And therefore we go and chant so that others may hear and make cleansed their heart. Interviewer: Well, in today’s world of merchandising any product, as it were, whether it be religion or any other tangible thing, you certainly excel as far as being vocal. I imagine that throughout America and other places in the world it’s a controversial method that you have problems with. Prabhupāda: I do not accept this problem. Interviewer: Well, what I’m saying, Your Divine Grace, is that when you do chant, and when you do have your disciples and students on the street approaching the person that knows nothing about the movement, you are criticized. Prabhupāda: They may criticize; everything new is criticized. But as we have seen, all these American boys, European boys, they have come to me. In the beginning they also criticized, but by hearing, hearing again and again, they have become my disciples. *Interviewer: Yes, you have many disciples, and we understand that by and large those that are disciples that have graduated from student*-hood are by and large a young generation. Yours truly and many others in middle age are not attracted perhaps as much as the younger soul. *Prabhupāda: Because middle*-aged, old men, they’re more sophisticated, and young man, young boys and girls, they are more receptive. Interviewer: Would you say, then, the young mind is more susceptible or capable of changing his mode of life? We know for one instance one disciple that you have was cleansed of his use of drugs, and that’s a point that we want to talk about. In other words, a younger person is capable of the transition. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is in every case; therefore education is given in younger ages, not in old ages. I have got experience that in an examination, a father and his young girl appeared. The young girl passed, and the father failed. Therefore the young age is the proper time for taking education. Interviewer: Now in your case you are of at least seventy years in this earth form. We understand the path that you’re trodding here on earth as a svāmī , as a head of the Kṛṣṇa movement, not only in America but throughout the world. Do you feel that your life has been completely dedicated from the very outset? Were you born into the Kṛṣṇa, or did you . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was born in a family of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My father was a great devotee, and from my childhood he trained me. I got the opportunity for becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious from the very beginning of my life. Interviewer: So this has been your lifestyle all these years. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Now, we understand, Your Divine Grace, that at this point in time, you as the titular or the actual head of the Kṛṣṇa movement in the world, you have no successor when you move into another dimension; that from the masses, from the disciples that you have throughout the world, someone will rise to take your place when you move to another world? Prabhupāda: Not someone, but so many, because I am teaching all the students to work in future. I may die, but the movement will go on, because all these young boys and girls, they are complete in knowledge of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So it cannot be stopped. Interviewer: Oh, no! No, no, we did not mean that it would be stopped or cease at any given time, but someone will succeed you. But you say many will. Prabhupāda: No, why someone? Many will succeed. Interviewer: Yes. Now, the growth of the movement in America, as you have indicated, is very great, very rapid. What would you attribute this most to? The enthusiasm? Or how do you feel it . . . why is it growing? Prabhupāda: Yes, amongst my students the enthusiasm is very nice. So I expect that each one of them will be future preachers. Interviewer: A teacher, or did you say . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, teacher and preacher, both. Interviewer: And you use the words preacher as well as teacher? Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Well, of course one on the outside does not always understand or can comprehend the many facets of what the Kṛṣṇa movement is, because as one that does not know, we must be objective, and in doing that perhaps you can tell our listeners some of the things that might be attractive to listen to the person that is approached to the next time on the street in a given city. Prabhupāda: Yes, people . . . (aside) Give all these books. We have got about dozens of books on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So we invite educated class men—philosophers, scientists, politicians—to study this movement. Why they should remain apart from this movement? It is a nice movement, it is meant for correcting the mistake of the human society. They should be interested. They should read our books and understand. *Interviewer: By and large, we understand that the movement of Kṛṣṇa is a passive form of religion, and that it is one that is from within. Would you say that you are non*-political and non-violent? *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. We are non*-political. We are not, I mean to say, stagnant; we are progressive, and it is exactly what you mean by religion. It is not exactly religion; it is a culture. It is a culture, divine culture: how to make every human being a divine man. There are two classes of men, one is called—according to Vedic literature—one is called a demon, and the other is called demigod. So anyone who is not perfectly cultured, he is called demon. And one who is perfectly cultured, he is called a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, or a demigod. And human life is meant for understanding what he is, what is to know, what is God, what is his relationship with God, what is this material world, why one has come here, where he will go. These things are actually enquiries of the human life, and they should be satisfied. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for this purpose. We are not exactly interested with the animal way of life. Animal way of life means the animal is interested only in four things: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. If human civilization is based on these four principles only, then it is another name of animal life. So we should go beyond animal life, try to understand the value of life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Interviewer: Then your belief centers around the fact that a human being on earth has more than the so*-called creature comforts of life—the mating, the sleeping, the eating. Prabhupāda: Yes, comfortable sleeping, that is a mental concoction, because, perhaps when one sleeps he may dream so many horrible things, or he may not have very nice sleep. But a dog sleeping on the street, he may have very sound sleep. So by improving the condition of sleep does not mean advancement of civilization. *Interviewer: We are having an in*-depth chat with the man that is the head of the Kṛṣṇa movement, originating originally of course in India, now with its world headquarters in Los Angeles, California, growing by leaps and bounds at least throughout the USA—the movement that many of our listeners will soon identify at the close of our broadcast when we will have the vibrations cast off by some of the disciples that are here with us at this interview time. Many people involved with the Kṛṣṇa movement . . . that are not involved with the Kṛṣṇa movement have no idea, perhaps, what this organization, this religion, this philosophy, stands for, and so we have come here to speak with His Divine Grace on the feeling and his thoughts about the Kṛṣṇa movement. Now when you make the chant on the streets, they say "Hare" Kṛṣṇa, and we understand that that means "Hail to God." Prabhupāda: Yes, we address. "Hare" means the energy of Kṛṣṇa, God. Two things are working: Kṛṣṇa is working through His energies. Just like the sun planet, it is working through its energy, the sunshine. Similarly, God is also working through His different energies. So this material manifestation is also creation of His energy. So we are addressing the energy of Lord, that is "Hare," and we are addressing Kṛṣṇa, the Lord, or Rāma, the Lord. Addressing means offering something or enquiring something or asking something—addressing. If I say "Jim," that means I am addressing for some purpose. So this is address, Hare Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, the energy of Lord. Oh, the Lord. Please again take me in Your association from this material condition of life." This is the purpose of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Interviewer: When you define it, Your Divine Grace, it seems rather simple, wherein some people feel perhaps your movement is more complex than you simplified. We feel that our listeners should know, research gives us the information that the Kṛṣṇa movement is free of the drug culture. There is no use of this in the organization whatsoever. There is complete harmony in the life of marriage and the raising of children, and there are many other ramifications . . . Prabhupāda: No intoxication. Interviewer: . . . and no intoxication. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eating. Interviewer: And I will let you continue, Your Divine Grace. *Prabhupāda: No meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling. These are the four principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Interviewer: When a student—being very realistic—when a student or an average person, whether he be an Englishman or a Frenchman or an American, decides that he would like to investigate the movement, does he come to one of your temples in any given city? Is he free to enter and go and learn without any restrictions? Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone can live with us; he is welcome. We have got sufficient place to give him accommodation, according to our capacity. We give him free boarding and lodgings and give him chance to live with us, to study our books, to study our movement, to hear us, to question us. All these facilities are offered to anyone who comes to us. Interviewer: We understand also that your disciples or your students live in what is commonly known as a "commune," but it is, as you have already indicated, as ethical as it can possibly be. Prabhupāda: Commune? What do you mean by commune? Interviewer: When you have your students and your disciples living in one . . . one building. I mean it is divided for the men and the women. Prabhupāda: Yes, because we do not allow illicit sex life. Therefore we advise those who are not married, the boys may live separate from the girls, so the girls may live separate from the boys—unless they are married. Interviewer: Yes, and we have already indicated earlier in our broadcast that the members of the Kṛṣṇa movement that do enter into matrimony are done so legally in that state or country where the laws they abide by. Now I think it would be interesting as we’ve woven a story about you and the movement of Kṛṣṇa, we would like, perhaps, if you will, in your own voice, give us somewhat of a personal life story as to some of the things you feel that you have accomplished in your years on earth as a human being, and then perhaps, if you will, forecast what you look forward to in the next life that comes along. Prabhupāda: Next life we are going back to home, back to God. That’s all. Interviewer: But what do you feel as a svāmī , as the head of this movement? What do you feel other than the obvious—the many that you have converted through students and through disciples. What great contributions to do you feel that you have given mankind? Prabhupāda: The contribution is that every living entity is eternal. He does not die, but he changes his body. This, this is botheration to get a body, one type of body. Today, today I am American, and tomorrow I am a dog. This botheration we want to stop. Interviewer: You feel then that you look forward, Your Divine Grace, to what is tomorrow? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tomorrow we are going to Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. Because we get good assurance in Bhagavad*-gītā that: "Anyone who understands Me, Kṛṣṇa, perfectly well, the next birth," tyaktvā dehaṁ , "after quitting this body he comes to Me." So we are giving education to our student to understand Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who perfectly understands Kṛṣṇa, he goes back to home, back to Godhead, and gets eternal, blissful life of knowledge. That is our perfection. Interviewer: Yes, I am sure those that are with us for this review and study, this vocal study of the Kṛṣṇa movement, will perhaps be refreshed in the hearing some of the words from their leader, now in the United States this recording time, heading back to India where he came, as a human being, from Calcutta. We begin to wind up our visit with you. Your Divine Grace, I am sure those students listening with us on college radio stations and various other points in the USA will perhaps be attracted by your voice and by your own convictions, that an investigation of this movement should be considered. But I think before we do that, we might ask you a question or two about your own feelings. You . . . you, a man in your seventy years on earth, you feel that what you are perpetuating through your leadership will help? This is my question, Your Divine Grace. At this point in time, you know, your disciples know and your students know, that we’re going through tremendous upheaval, from political to war to all forms of, of disturbances. What do you feel the movement itself can do if anything to help correct it? Prabhupāda: Yes, this movement can help in every respect. It can solve all your problems, provided you take it seriously. Interviewer: But I wish you would expound a bit on that. How can they . . . how can the movement really satisfy and overcome some of the defects of mankind? *Prabhupāda: Well, the defects of mankind is a mental disturbance, and mind is so made that it is always agitated. So if you fix up your business in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will feel peace. That is enunciated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Three things you have to understand: that Kṛṣṇa, or God, is the proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; and He is the supreme friend. Anyone who understands these three things perfectly, he immediately becomes peaceful. Interviewer: And would you say that those that have joined your movement, those students and the disciples, have attained this state of mind on earth? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, certainly. Otherwise how they are sticking to me? I am not giving them any salary, or money, but they’re sticking, and you cannot get them back again to other consciousness. Interviewer: We understand that some of the members of the movement have strayed at times, and in many cases have returned because of their own self need. They have returned if they have left the fold. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Returned? Interviewer: Well, what I’m saying, Your Divine Grace, is that many members or disciples of the Kṛṣṇa movement who have faltered, who have failed in the work and drifted away, have come back. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is practically a fight with ignorance. Just like two parties are fighting, so there is possibility that in each party there will be some victims. So that is not consideration. After all, the party which gains victory he is the strong party. So we are fighting with non–Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or godlessness. So sometimes from our party there may be some victims—that is not extraordinary; that is quite natural—but that does not mean this movement will fail. It will go on. Interviewer: Well of course in all human endeavors, regardless of what it may be, there is human frailties that must be overcome. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, there are human frailties. That, that we are guarding against, that four principles, that one should not take to illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling and no intoxication. These four principles will save him. Just like a diseased man, when being treated, he has to accept some do’s and some do not’s. So that is natural. So these are the do not’s. And there are do’s also. Just we recommend we chant sixteen rounds of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So those who are actually following the do’s and do not’s, they are becoming successful. *Interviewer: Well, you can understand why those that follow this man, this man on earth, this Divine Grace, probably in some people’s ears it is over*-simplified, when you have the simple do’s and simple do not’s. But if in this program we have been able to enlighten some of you as to what the Kṛṣṇa movement is, and when you hear and see these men and women on the streets of America chanting, getting in their . . . their sounds that are what you might call their dimensions. Perhaps (break) enlightened some of you as to what this Kṛṣṇa movement is (break) for. We hope that this program has been instrumental in serving as a form of education as what Kṛṣṇa is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Now before we have the group that is with us for this recording give us the dimension that they preach and chant form on the streets of America, perhaps you might like to tell of some of those listening some points that we may not have touched upon, Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: I think you have touched all the points. And I have answered you duly. Interviewer: Well, we have tried. And now if we can prevail upon the students and the disciples that are with us at this recording, we’re going to pick up a typical sound that is heard over and over again throughout America. Since we’re not on television, you won’t see their eyes closed and their . . . what some might term a trance which they are in. But it is their own dimension, their own peace and contentment that is displayed from within. So we will ask them to sing for us, and we will close. Well, we shouldn’t say "sing," we should say "chant." Isn’t that right, Your Divine Grace? Prabhupāda: Yes, singing or chanting is the same thing. Interviewer: And they’re very happy people, too. I wish we could show you the picture of His Divine Grace, a man in his seventies, who perhaps is young more so than many of us that are really much older. So shall we close with the next two or three minutes of the Hare Kṛṣṇa song, or chant, or melody? ( kīrtana ) (break) Interviewer: Just the right. I had thought I could fade it out, but I didn’t. Would one of you good people take my picture with His Divine Grace? Out of my . . . I have a . . . in my bag, there. Śyāmasundara: Do you know how it works? Interviewer: Yeah, I will fix it for you. Śyāmasundara: This is exactly the same. Interviewer: It is the same as . . . interesting. Govinda dasi: I can’t get my flashbulb to work. Interviewer: Oh, I am sorry. Is it . . .? Govinda dasi: Have you changed the battery or something? Interviewer: Are you one with or without a battery? Govinda dasi: I have a battery. Interviewer: Yeah, well this is the kind that doesn’t require, and if you would, Mrs. Gary, I will say, if you will get us in the little square I would appreciate it, because I would like to remember this visit. Govinda dasi: Thank you. Smile! Interviewer: I will smile with His Grace. Now get us all . . . but be sure we are in there. (laughs) Govinda dasi: Where is the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Interviewer: Try it here in front, right there. It is good to have met you, and I wish you . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you. Interviewer: Kṛṣṇa’s . . . I should say Kṛṣṇa’s speed. Is that right? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs) Interviewer: One more, just for the road. Did the . . .? Gary, did we do? You think because of this disciple I was able to interview you in a positive way. What do you say, Gary? What did you say? Gaurasundara: One thing: You mentioned that he was going back to India, but actually I said he was coming from India. Interviewer: Oh, well, that is a detail which won’t make any difference, will it? Gaurasundara: Maybe. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I shall request you to induce your big men to understand this philosophy. It will be great help to your country. Interviewer: Well, have you had any audience with any of our large politicians? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you can arrange, it will be good. Interviewer: Oh, I cannot. But I can only hope that . . . I can only hope that what we have said here will be digested and listened with favor, because as I said to your people, we only do a positive . . . (indistinct) . . . take, like we do in India. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Interviewer: All right? Thank you. Yes, I would like my lady friend to see him, if she may. Could she . . .? Prabhupāda: Take this garland. Interviewer: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Yes, she can come in. Interviewer: I don’t know if she is out with her little dog. But perhaps you can have her come in and see him? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Interviewer: Her name is Barbara . . . (end) Press Conference -- June 26, 1971, Paris (translated into French throughout) Prabhupāda: The original consciousness is that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Just like at the present moment we are thinking, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am American." Just like there are different consciousness, but the original consciousness is "I am Kṛṣṇa's." So the present civilization is missing a very important point. They are accepting this body as the self, but actually this is not the fact. I am spirit soul. I am Brahman, or part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So this Movement is reviving the original consciousness. And by missing this consciousness—"I am the spirit soul"—I am transmigrating from one body to another. Today I am a Frenchman, but tomorrow I may be something else. There are 8,400,000 species of life. I can . . . after quitting this body I can be transferred to any one of the species of life. That point we are missing. So this process is to get out of the designation. Just like I am spirit soul, but due to my this body, I am thinking I am Indian. So this designation has to be changed. Then we are purified. We are engaged in some sort of service, every one of us, but that service is now being rendered within that designation. But when we are freed from the designation, when we are purified, then our service to Kṛṣṇa becomes bona fide, and that is the real standard of peace. So this chanting process is purifying process to become freed from this designation. Just like all these boys, some of them coming from America, some of them from England, some of them from India, some of them from France or Germany, but they have forgotten that they are German or American or Indian or something else. They are always thinking, "I am Kṛṣṇa's." This is freedom from designation. *So the peace formula as stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is said that when one understands that Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, Supreme Personality, is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor and He is the supreme friend, if we understand these three items, then there is peace immediately. The original Sanskrit words in this connection are as follows: This śāntim means peace. Actual peace can be achieved when one understands these three things only—Kṛṣṇa the supreme enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa the supreme proprietor and Kṛṣṇa the supreme friend. So we are teaching these three things to the world. That is our business. And the process is very simple. The process is simply chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. If we continue chanting, it has got some spiritual value; then we cleanse our heart from all dirty things. Except Kṛṣṇa consciousness, any other consciousness is dirty—that is material, contaminated consciousness. *So by chanting this mantra . . . just like in India, still there are many snake charmers. They, by chanting mantra , they cure snake*-bitten cases, although they're fatal. Of course they are now dwindling, but there are still. So if it is possible materially, then spiritually there is great possibility. And it is recommended in the śāstras , and actually it has happened. By chanting this mantra , simple mantra , without any education, without any philosophical knowledge, simply if we chant, your heart will be cleansed of all dirty things and you'll understand that you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and you will understand that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor and He is the supreme friend. And as soon as you understand these three things, you are in peace. *This word man , man means mind. Man*-tra — tra means deliverance. So mantra means which delivers from our mental platform. Every one of us are now hovering either on the bodily platform or on the mental platform, subtle. Mental platform is subtle, and bodily platform is gross. But beyond this mind there is intelligence, and beyond intelligence there is soul. So by this mantra we, I mean to say, cross over the mental platform, intellectual platform, and come directly to the spiritual platform. And as soon as we come to the spiritual platform and we understand our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God, then we are in peace. Prabhupāda: (explains to the translator) Delivered from the mental platform. I think this is the explanation. Now if there is question. Translator: (translating questions) You said that there's 8,400,000 species of living entities. He would like to have an explanation of it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). There are nine lakhs . Nine lakhs means . . . ten millions, one lakh ? Śyāmasundara: Nine hundred thousand. *Prabhupāda: Nine hundred . . . yes. Nine hundred thousand species in the water. Aquatic animals, yes. Nine hundred thousand aquatic animals, jalajā nava*-lakṣāṇi . Sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati — sthāvarā means the trees, plants which cannot move, they stand up; *they are twenty hundred thousand. Sthāvarā lakṣa*-viṁśati . Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakāḥ . Kṛmayo means insects. They are eleven hundred thousand species. *Then after insect life there is birds, pakṣiṇāṁ daśa*-lakṣaṇam —there are ten hundred thousand species of life, birds. Birds. Then there are beasts, thirty hundred thousands of beasts. And there are four hundred thousand species of human beings, out of which the civilized form of human being are very few. *And this civilized form of life is especially meant for self*-realization. This is a chance given by the nature to understand yourself. But if we don't understand—miss this point—again we go into the cycle of different species of life. Just we can imagine if we get next life like a tree, we have to stand up for ten thousands of years. So we should be very careful not to miss this opportunity of getting civilized form of life, and try to understand what I am. All the śāstras , *Vedas* , they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. If you don't take advantage of this great knowledge, then you are following the suicidal policy. Yes? Question: (translated) What do you mean by 400,000 forms of human beings? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many species of human beings—in the jungles, uncivilized. Gradually they come to the civilized form. Not that every human being is complete in knowledge. There are so many species of human being, they are not in knowledge; they are in the darkness. Therefore according to Vedic civilization there are four divisions. The most intelligent class of men, they are called brahmins ; and the next intelligent class of men are called the kṣatriyas ; and next the vaiśyas ; the next, śūdras ; and all others, they are caṇḍālas . This is according to the knowledge, advancement of spiritual knowledge, this division. *(break) But everyone can be elevated to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is barred or checked from . . . for coming to the highest position. And this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to bring everyone to the highest platform of understanding. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: Kṛṣṇa says that anyone can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and thus elevated to the highest perfection of life. So it is the duty of persons, especially that is ordered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu that Indians, they should purify first their life and then distribute this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. Question: (translated) What is our position in relation to . . . our spiritualism, in relation to Christian monks and Christian spiritualism, and how is it generally, the relationship between them? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian religion teaches that God consciousness. Lord Jesus Christ preached God consciousness. He represented himself as son of God. So we agree to this principle. There is no controversy. Yes. Anyone who teaches God consciousness, we agree with the principle. Muhammad also, he preached God consciousness. So we welcome. There maybe some difference of process—that does not matter—but we test a religion by the results how people are becoming God conscious, that's all. According to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said: *It is said that that is first*-class religious principle which teaches devotion to the Supreme Lord without any motive and without being hampered by any material condition. God consciousness is not such a thing that if a man is materially poor he cannot advance. Everyone can advance. Nothing material can check God consciousness, and any religion which teaches this principle, that is first class. Question: (translated) Do you think that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has anything particular to say to the society today? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are saying that—I began—that unless you come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you cannot be happy. Kṛṣṇa . . . when I say "Kṛṣṇa" it means God, God consciousness. You may say in another name; that does not matter. When I speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God, the Supreme Lord. So unless we are conscious of the Supreme Lord . . . in other religions they say "God is great," but how God is great? What is the name of God, and what other things? Just like if we know somebody, we must know very particularly what is his name, where is his residence, what does he do—so many things. Simply an idea of God is great, that is good, but how great He is, that is a science. That we have to learn from Vedic literature. *(break) . . . malinterpretation. Then we can understand the science of God very clearly. So we are teaching our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . (break) Question: (translated) One thing we're doing . . . we should think of people are very confusing in the idea of reincarnation. So how can you say that human intelligence and . . . a human being and human intelligence can reincarnate in a vegetable form or an animal form? Prabhupāda: Well, all these description of different types of living entities . . . they are living entities; they have got simply different form. Just like we are sitting, so many ladies and gentlemen, we have got different dresses, but we are all human being. Similarly, all these description of species of life, they are all spiritual sparks, but according to their karma they have got different bodies. *Some of them are trees, some of them are aquatics, some of them are human beings, some of them are greater than them, some of them lower than them. So there are innumerable, uncountable different types of living entities, and they are having their different bodies according to the mentality at the time of death. This is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : At the time of death, the subtle mentality which you develop, it is just like the air carries the flavor; similarly, that mental idea is being carried by the subtle mind, intelligence, and you are given chance of a particular body by which you can enjoy that mental position. So unfortunately, although it is a great science, throughout the whole world there are so many universities, they are neglecting this science. That is the defect of modern civilization. The transmigration of the soul, it is a great science, but because they cannot tackle this matter, they will avoid it. That's a great risky civilization. That's all. So the higher intelligence of human being is especially given to understand this science. But they are neglecting this science. They are busy with eating, sleeping, mating and defending, which is the business of the animals—they are also busy with eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Question: (translated) What is the ideal of the . . . ideal result of the transmigration of the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: The idea is to save yourself. Suppose I am now very happy Frenchman, but if next life I get another life, degraded life, then what is my position? Therefore one should understand, one should prepare his next body in this life. Just like a student studies very carefully to prepare his next life, similarly, this human form of life should be prepared to get next life. *Next life, permanent life, that is possible. Permanent life—if you transfer yourself in the spiritual world, you get permanent life, full of knowledge, sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha : eternal life full of knowledge, full of pleasure, full of bliss. You should try for this. Human life is meant for that purpose; otherwise you are missing the chance. Question: (translated) Should we do this with material support or without material support? Prabhupāda: No. It has nothing to do with material support. Without any material support one can execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Question: (translated) Therefore there exist a class of superior beings, spiritual, who are existing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Question: (translated) He's saying maybe this is what the Christians call angels. *Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become God conscious, that is the position of angel. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā —the exact verse is like this: *This brahma*-bhūyāya means angels. They are not in this material world; *they are transcendentally situated. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate —anyone who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in devotional service: He is above the three modes of material nature. Angel means those who are not affected by the modes of material nature. That is the position of angel. The example can be given, just like in any state there are two department—civil department, criminal department. Those who are not criminals, they are not under the control of the criminal department. Similarly, those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are not controlled by the modes of material nature. So those who are not criminal, they are not controlled by the criminal department. So therefore, although the material nature, the laws are very stringent, still those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, for them there is no such thing as law. *(break) . . . in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "Those who are surrendered to Me, they have already transcended the position of being controlled by material nature." Question: (translated) Can you explain why this Kṛṣṇa consciousness has so much success among young people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not only young people. Old men are reluctant, and they are easily taken. If old men take, they will be also successful. It is not restricted to the younger generation—to everyone. But the younger generation, they are receptive, they are blank slate. The old men, they have got so many hodgepodge in their mind, therefore they cannot take easily. That is the difficulty. They have to forget all hodgepodge things, then they have to take. So the process of forgetting is there, but here they are new heart, and they see very nice thing, they accept it. *So anyone can take it, and anyone will be benefited. There is no such thing that it is meant for such*-and-such class of men. No. There is no such thing. Question: (translated) These young people . . . the second question was—these young people have come searching. And why are they searching? Why are these young people searching? Prabhupāda: Well, they are searching because they are frustrated by seeing their parents' life, by their guardians' life. They are frustrated. So that is a good sign. One who is frustrated, he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness very quickly. I was just coming from Moscow. There are many young Russians, they are also very much prepared to take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there is so many restriction. We cannot preach very freely; that is our position. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is now experimented that this movement can be accepted by anyone, any part of the world, and whoever takes it, he will be happy. That's all. (aside) That gentleman, he wants . . . Question: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: His idea is to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. Punaḥ punaḥ means "again and again," and that we are preaching. And Kṛṣṇa also is speaking the same thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." And we are teaching that, "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore in one sense we are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Just try to understand: Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." We also say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." So there is no change of words. But anyone who changes the word, he is not representative. Just like if somebody says . . . suppose I say: "Give me a glass of water." And if my disciple says, "Give a glass of water to Prabhupāda," the order is the same. But if somebody says that this Prabhupāda's words, "Give me a glass . . ." "me" can be changed to "milk," that is bogus. That is going on. It should be . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be strictly on the principles of Kṛṣṇa's desire. That was executed by Arjuna. He changed his own principle for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. He did not want to fight; *therefore Bhagavad*-gītā was explained to him, and later on, when Kṛṣṇa enquired, "What you have decided?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall now fight." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One has to change his concocted ideas and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That will benefit; otherwise not. Question: (translated) Are there other names than Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many thousands and millions of names, but "Kṛṣṇa" is the chief name. (break) Question: (translated) He'd like to know if there is actually a living representative of Kṛṣṇa here. And how do you become . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, all of us living representative of Kṛṣṇa, because we are speaking what Kṛṣṇa says. Don't you understand? Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me," and we are saying, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Therefore we are representative. I will give you one example. Just like a businessman sends his representative to sell some particular thing, and the canvasser says, "Please purchase this thing." Therefore he is real representative. We don't say that, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa" or "Surrender to somebody else" is the same. No. We don't say like that. And how . . . why we say that, we can support. That is our position. Therefore we are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Translator: (asks Prabhupāda to explain what he said) Prabhupāda: If somebody says: "Why you are asking to surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then that we can explain that. We have explained how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa in twelve voluminous books, four hundred pages each. So if anyone wants to understand full philosophy, science, why one should surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there are so many books. But if somebody is fortunate, he can accept our word and surrender to Kṛṣṇa by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is easy and sublime. Question: (translated) Can you arrive at Kṛṣṇa consciousness without having any love for humanity? *Prabhupāda: It is the only process how to love humanity. It is the only process. When Rupa Goswami met Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he designated Him namo mahā*-vadānyāya (CC Madhya 19.53): "The greatest benefactor," kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te , "by Your distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the greatest welfare activity in the whole human society. Question: (translated) Do you consider celibacy as superior to being married in our spiritual order? Prabhupāda: Yes. Celibacy, that is the Vedic system. First of all students are taught not to live by theoretical—by practical. The students were living in gurukula to learn brahmacarya , celibacy, and if the master saw that he is complete in celibacy, he would not allow him to marry. But if he sees that he has got tendency to enjoy this material life, he says that "You go home and get married." The idea was to avoid sex life. But if one cannot, then next automatically he is married. Not illicit sex life. That is most sinful life. Unrestricted sex life is visible just like the hogs, they have got unrestricted sex life; the monkeys. But that is not human life. Human life, even there is necessity of sex life, that should be regulated and restrained. That is human life. Question: (translated) Do you think marriage is necessary? Prabhupāda: Not necessary, but one who cannot avoid sex life, for him it is necessary. Question: (translated) He's saying that do you mean you can have children and not be married? Prabhupāda: Eh? Question: (translated) Does that mean you can have children but not be married? Prabhupāda: (laughter) No, no, no. (laughs) No, no, no. Bachelor, that is not a wanted. Bachelor, that is not wanted. Children must be bona fide; *otherwise they will be called varṇa*-saṅkaraḥ . In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, when there are varṇa-saṅkara , illegitimate children, the whole world becomes hellish. Question: (translated) He would like to know the means that we use every day, practical means that we use to attract people to our Movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. We do our own duty, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Those who are kindly attracted we welcome; otherwise we go on doing our duty. Question: What is the difference between our teaching and the teachings of Maharishi? Prabhupāda: I do not know about Maharishi. We know about our own business. That's all. That's all right. Thank you very much. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 30, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Oh, so what other news? Govinda dāsī: I have just brought you some Mango. Prabhupāda: Ohhh, Hawaii Mango? Govinda dāsī: Yes. This is nice kind. Prabhupāda: Oh? Fruits and flowers. And this morning, Śyāmā devī sent something. (laughs) So our . . . that Sai is keeping all right? Govinda dāsī: He is doing very nice. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . coming later . . . (indistinct) . . . any sincere soul trying to serve Kṛṣṇa, he'll profit. There is no doubt. Simply sincerity wanted. Satya śamo dama titikṣa ārjavam ( BG 18.42). Ārjavam means without any duplicity. Then his advancement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, assured. Kṛṣṇa is very intelligent, He is sitting within. You cannot cheat Him. (laughs) That is not possible. You cannot surpass Him in any way. That is ignorance. And He is the supreme; He surpasses anyone's intelligence. If we want to play a trick with Kṛṣṇa, He understands everything. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26): "I know everything." Māṁ tu veda na kaścana : "I know everyone, but nobody knows Me." That is the statement. So anyone who wants to serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely, his place is secure . . . (indistinct) So here have you got some tulasī ? Govinda dāsī: I have a whole sackful. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I have a whole bag full. I brought them. Prabhupāda: Eh. But can . . . can they be planted here? Govinda dāsī: I didn't bring the plant, I brought the bag. They don't have any plants? They died? They disappeared? Prabhupāda: During winter . . . winter season *Govinda dāsī: They have . . . I have gotten letters from very cold climates, from Seattle. One boy says he has a three*-foot-high one. Prabhupāda: Hum. Govinda dāsī: And the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And they are following their instructions? Govinda dāsī: I think so. I got a letter saying they water too much. Prabhupāda: So you . . . (indistinct) . . . there are so many boys and girls, some of them must take care. You teach them. You have done a tremendous service to the Society by introducing tulasī plants. It will be creditable in history—very good service. Govinda dāsī: She just grew. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: She just grew. (laughs) I didn't introduce her; she just grew. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: This big. One boy just came from India. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: Just some boy, hippie. He said that in all of India he hadn't seen such huge tulasī plants. I was surprised, because I thought they were . . . Prabhupāda: There is, in Vṛndāvana. Govinda dāsī: In Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: This big around, and . . . (indistinct) . . . is in the sun. But in the sun, there is . . . (indistinct) . . . in the shady areas. Prabhupāda: It is a tropical plant. Govinda dāsī: But they have lights, artificial lights . . . Prabhupāda: . . . artificial lights . . . Govinda dāsī: . . . in place of the sun. Prabhupāda: I have seen in London, John Lennon's house, Titten . . . Tittenhurst? Tittenhurst. Tittenhurst Garden. What is "Titten"? Some name? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And "hurst"? Gaurasundara: Mmm. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Garden. So he has got artificial form, electricity, for growing some plants. Govinda dāsī: It can be done. Prabhupāda: He has got a gardener, expert gardener, one man. He was feeding the ashes. Gaurasundara: (indistinct) . . . plants. Prabhupāda: That gardener. All are master gardener. So some way or other tulasī plants must be in every center. Now it is tested. Seattle it is growing. Govinda dāsī: It is much colder in Seattle than in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Still it is growing. Why not? Govinda dāsī: Really! Prabhupāda: Oh. You sent it? No. Govinda dāsī: I sent the seeds and the instructions. Prabhupāda: Ah, they have no seeds? Govinda dāsī: Ah, we have lots of seeds. We have to cut the flowers off every day, or else there will be seeds. We have so many tulasī plants we don't know where to put them. Prabhupāda: I will find that. Govinda dāsī: They are this close together. Prabhupāda: Ah. That's fine. Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara won't let me dig up the front yard, though. I want to dig up the whole front yard (laughs) and make it all tulasī . Gaurasundara: We have on the hill, we planted tulasī . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: Yeah. Gaurasundara: There's on another property. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gaurasundara: We're planting them on the hill. Prabhupāda: Just there? Gaurasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: To get them growing wild. To get them started growing wild. Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: So they will start taking over, you know. Because they spread their seed profusely, everywhere. Gaurasundara: They're overcrowding us. Govinda dāsī: You see, whenever the seeds ripened they all fell, and I didn't know that, and I came out one day and there were about 300 baby tulasī . Prabhupāda: (laughs) Govinda dāsī: (laughs) And they were, you know, this close together. So I transplanted some of them, and I don't have places to transplant them all. Prabhupāda: So now you have to find out place. And then, you have got another place? Govinda dāsī: Well, there's a hill which is behind the temple, which is not used by anyone. Prabhupāda: So you can, you can . . . Govinda dāsī: So we are trying to make it take over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Planting them wild. But we water them every day. Prabhupāda: You can send tulasī leaves dried to every center. That will be made for offering. Govinda dāsī: Dried? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Govinda dāsī: Sun*-dried? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Transcendental subject. Govinda dāsī: (sighs) Prabhupāda: There is no question of dry or green. Govinda dāsī: I have brought a big bag of fresh ones for you . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: . . . this time. I could have brought a plant, but I didn't know that they didn't have any. Prabhupāda: Oh. Is this sārī got from India? Govinda dāsī: No, it was given to me by someone. Prabhupāda: Here? No. Govinda dāsī: In Hawaii. Prabhupāda: In Hawaii. From Indian? Govinda dāsī: No, I think it was one of the Haiku . . . Sai's group. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It is American cloth . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: It is very late. I couldn't get an earlier plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I couldn't get an earlier plane. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Govinda dāsī: I don't want to keep you from taking rest. Prabhupāda: So your father is funding his daughter? He's being utilized. Your father is gathering some bhakti seeds. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) Prabhupāda: You're doing service to your father. Hmm. Gaurasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: (about Prabhupāda's servants) They want to know if there's anything else. Prabhupāda: That's all. Gaurasundara: (pays obeisances) Prabhupāda: So where is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: I don't know, I've just got here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gaurasundara: She just arrived now. *Govinda dāsī: I haven't talked to anyone except Safa. Siddha*-svarūpa is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Govinda dāsī: Siddha*-svarūpa is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gaurasundara: Everyone is doing nicely. Prabhupāda: Now then let it grow everywhere. One, that Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Gaurasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Both husband and wife very nice, very intelligent. Intelligent, very nice wife. The wife is engaged in Deity worship. Oh, Kṛṣṇa . . . unless one is pure in heart, he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *This is the version of Bhagavad*-gītā . One who is completely free from the contamination of material sins, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ . Pāpaṁ means sin; *anta*-gataṁ , finished, all gone. Te , such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā . Dvandva . Dvandva means duality. Nirmuktā . *Dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā knows that everything is display of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy, Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel, Kṛṣṇa's expansion, Kṛṣṇa's plenary portions, incarnation—everything Kṛṣṇa—one can understand when one is freed from all material sins. Te dvandva-moha . This is moha . Moha means to misunderstand that there is anything without Kṛṣṇa. That is moha , illusion. And when one knows that anything I see, this is Kṛṣṇa's, display of Kṛṣṇa's energy . . . just like sunlight: anything in the material world, it is sunlight, due to sunlight. That is scientific. This flower is growing—how it is a different color? This green flower, only . . . (indistinct) . . . and red flower, it is all due to sunlight, reaction of different position of sunlight making this color in the world. Anyone can understand it is scientific: heat and light from the sun is the cause of material cosmic rays. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has two energies: spiritual energy and material energy. And manifestation of His two energies . . . two energies is the whole creation. *So one who understands this is scientific. Dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā : there is no more duality. This is oneness, everything. But at the same time this flower is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is not there. The material world is Kṛṣṇa's, but Kṛṣṇa is not there. Kṛṣṇa is in the spiritual world. So, go on. Somehow or other you have got some touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Develop it by service, that's all, and life is success—all problems solved. So try to assimilate and distribute. With these two, give better service. And assimilate without problem; act nice. Without assimilation one cannot distribute. So even if one does not know how to distribute, he can assimilate personally. So we have got a nice center in Paris also. And Moscow I have been. Many young boys are entering our service, and the government is so demoniac. Always spying, police. Anyone respectable they will ask, "What is your document, you are here? Where is your document?" If you cannot produce any satisfactory document, immediately there will be jail. They are so rascal. And you cannot live in your own way. You cannot get even foodstuff to your choice. You have to accept whatever the government supplies. This is the position. And simply Lenin, Lenin, Lenin. Lenin is their Kṛṣṇa. Not that they want Lenin, but they are being forced. Śyāmasundara was telling that Lenin's face is just like Satan, as described in Kṛṣṇa book. (chuckles) He is a Satan, granted. I don't think he has given any contribution to his country, simply goondaism. Hmm? What is called, goondaism? Called guṇḍā . Govinda dāsī: Aggrand . . . aggrandizement. Prabhupāda: Aggrandizement, of course. Outlaws—is that the proper name? Outlaws? Gaurasundara: Ruffians? Prabhupāda: Ruffian, yes. Guṇḍā —ruffian. Yes. So he was a ruffian. What good thing can he do? He killed the whole family, royal family. One of the daughters of the king, she was supposed to be the most beautiful of the world, and she begged and excused for her life, and she was killed. That is the history of Lenin. So merciless. And in this way they established the Communist government. I don't think that they have got any contribution to the world. What contribution they have? Huh? Any good contribution except ruffianism? What contribution, good contribution? No philosophy, no wise . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not a very good contribution, not at all. Their contribution is ruffianism, that's all. By ruffianism they have overthrown the royalty, monarchy. That's all. But so far their contribution . . . all buildings, big buildings, they were old buildings; they were constructed by the royal order. They have not produced. They have constructed some few skyscrapers recently, we saw . . . (indistinct) That is also in long term. They have become liberal . . . not liberal; they have not so much strict. We are now allowed to be in Moscow. Formerly we were not allowed. But the country, the city is very nice. Better than the Western European cities. But Paris has got still more magnificent buildings. There is a place, Concorde, wonderful buildings all round. You have traveled, Paris? Govinda dāsī: Maybe . . . (indistinct) . . . Paris. I don't remember. Prabhupāda: You have been only in England? Govinda dāsī: No, I have traveled, in Paris, all the countries of Europe except Spain. Prabhupāda: Moscow? Govinda dāsī: No, just Europe, Western Europe. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: Just Western Europe. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And Turkey and Greece and Czechoslovakia. Then it was open. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Istanbul. You have been in Istanbul? That is in Turkey. They say that Istanbul is nice city. Govinda dāsī: It is full of mosques. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: It is full of mosques. Prabhupāda: Mosques? Govinda dāsī: Mosques. Prabhupāda: Oh! Govinda dāsī: Mosques, the Muslim mosques. *Prabhupāda: Yes, I see. There in Moscow also, the churches are mosque*-like. That means Muslim culture is there formerly. Govinda dāsī: It is very late, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: It is very late. Prabhupāda: So, what you are taking at night? Devotee: What is that? Prasādam ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: You see, for me, it is not even eight o'clock yet. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: For me it is only 7.45. Prabhupāda: Oh! It is not eating time? Govinda dāsī: It is 7.45 in the evening. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have to wait three hours more. All right, so give her prasādam . (devotees offer obeisances) ( japa ) So what shall I give Govinda dasi? I shall give you something. Take this. Govinda dāsī: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is poison. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) What is it? Prabhupāda: Poison. Govinda dāsī: No, I don't believe that. Is this tulasī , the temples'? Gaurasundara: It is . . . Prabhupāda: Cardamom. Govinda dāsī: Cardamom seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: You eat them whole? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You eat them whole? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Take off the skin and taste. The seed is very nice. That is all right. Now enjoy. Break or chew the seeds, it is very nice. It is digestive. Govinda dāsī: I use it for cooking. Prabhupāda: Flavor your mouth. If one has got bad flavor, this is counteract. Hmm. (break) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . 100 dollars? (laughs) Govinda dāsī: This is for my daddy, for my material father. Prabhupāda: Ah yes, your father is still . . . still bluff. (laughs) You are asking as beloved child, and it is going to Kṛṣṇa. (Govinda dāsī laughs) Prabhupāda: So cut the man . . . mangoes. What is called? Gaurasundara: Crease? Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Ah! Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have so many mangoes in Hawaii, you could take these and eat these for days. Prabhupāda: This is so nice mangoes. Govinda dāsī: We eat dozens of them. Prabhupāda: Simply by seeing, one is satisfied. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) Ah! . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hawaii is full of this mango? Gaurasundara: Yes, this is mango season. For maybe one, two months, there is more than you can eat. Govinda dāsī: Each devotee eats nothing but mangoes for breakfast. Nothing but mangoes. Prabhupāda: And he does not make sick? Gaurasundara: No, no. Govinda dāsī: No. I eat five. Some people eat twelve. Gaurasundara: They are used. Prabhupāda: Twelve mangoes? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: Some of the brahmacārīs eat at least twelve or fifteen mangoes. Gaurasundara: Twenty. Their faces are all yellow, all the time, with the mangoes. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) They sit down and they will eat as long as they have the time. And we have so many that they are rotting. It's a shame, we cannot even eat them all. Prabhupāda: Cut all these mangoes and distribute. Gaurasundara: All these mangoes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Ah! You have to have some too. Prabhupāda: (laughs) I don't say that. So keep these mangoes. Take this knife, cut all the mangoes and distribute. Offer to the Deity here. Gaurasundara: These can be offered? Prabhupāda: Eh? You can take, or Govinda dāsī can take. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Gaurasundara: I'm going to get another plate to put the mangoes on. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaurasundara: I can get another plate to put the mangoes on. Govinda dāsī: Gaurasundara bought one truck for $300. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: He bought one large truck—huge; the bed as long as that room—for $300, and the brahmacārīs and him, they fixed it up, painted it very nicely. Prabhupāda: Ah, eh. You carried me in one bus when I was last here, there? Gaurasundara: Yes, a truck. Bigger, much bigger. Prabhupāda: Same truck? Gaurasundara: No, much bigger than that. Govinda dāsī: No. Much bigger. Gaurasundara: We used it for some time, then we sold it and made profit, $550 profit. Govinda dāsī: We sold it for 850, 850, and we bought it for 300. Gaurasundara: Oh, we did several. This is from our used car business. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: We sold several trucks. We bought them and sold them and made twice as much money. Prabhupāda: How you do it? Gaurasundara: We just . . . just paint it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: Paint it. Gaurasundara: Paint it and clean it and fixed it a little bit on the motor. Govinda dāsī: And we use them for saṅkīrtana . Gaurasundara: And we use it while . . . while we're working on it. We use it as much as we like and then sell it. *Govinda dāsī: On Ratha*-yātrā that very truck that brought us $800, we took it, the boys, we decorated it with flowers. *Prabhupāda: You also performed Ratha*-yātrā? Govinda dāsī: Yes, Gaurasundara was here. *Gaurasundara: Not exactly Ratha*-yātrā. We had a, a parade, and we went down with the truck and brought the people to the temple. Prabhupāda: Now you should introduce some ceremony, big ceremony. And you make all. Govinda dāsī: It was nice. We brought 28 people back in the truck, plus all our devotees. So you can see it was a big truck. Prabhupāda: So Hawaii is developing nicely. You work so hard, I know. (laughs) You are going fifty miles to work, both husband and wife. Govinda dāsī: No, we don't do that even. He works very hard, but I am very sick now . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: We don't work outside, you know. Prabhupāda: No, at that time . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Oh, yeah. Govinda dāsī: You saved us. Prabhupāda: At that time I was thinking, "Oh, how these poor boys are working so hard." Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whole day and night. Gaurasundara: (laughs) I was first of all working two jobs in Hawaii—one in the daytime, one in the night. Not good. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Govinda dāsī: You told us, "Stop working, Kṛṣṇa will take care of everything." Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And we did that. Gaurasundara: Oh, yeah. Govinda dāsī: And Kṛṣṇa has taken care of everything. Simply fate. Prabhupāda: That I am confident. (laughs) Otherwise I could not work personally. I had to do so much, big trouble. Hawaii is blessed land. I have seen that. Such a nice island. Sufficient mangoes, sufficient papaya, sufficient coconut. Gaurasundara: Coconut, banana—there are many fruits. Prabhupāda: Flowers also. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So your, er, monthly payment is going regularly? (aside) You keep it there. Gaurasundara: Keep it on the plate? Prabhupāda: Keep it there, and then distribute to all the devotees. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Gaurasundara also? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Gaurasundara is also a devotee. (laughter) Govinda dāsī: (indistinct) . . . Gaurasundara. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why he should be bereft of? Gaurasundara: So you mean the Back to Godhead payment? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: You said something about monthly payment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: Back to Godhead ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. We are paying, but we are not distributing so much. But we are increasing. Prabhupāda: What is the reason? (aside) Take those parts. Gaurasundara: There is . . . there is in winter season not so many people. Now summer is here. Prabhupāda: It is winter now? Govinda dāsī: It's increasing. Gaurasundara: No, now it is summer. In fact our Back to Godhead distribution has gone up three times in the last week. Tripled. So I think during summer season it will be nice. Prabhupāda: Summer season, how . . . Gaurasundara: Everybody comes to visit Hawaii in summer. Govinda dāsī: It is sunny and warm, and people are on the street. But in winter it rains all the time. Not all the time, but there is not as many people, and . . . Gaurasundara: So we are improving. Prabhupāda: When we first went there it was the month of March. It was raining. Gaurasundara: That last time you were there it was nice. Prabhupada: This . . . that was with others. Last time when I went it was other. (pause) So how do you find Los Angeles temple? Gaurasundara: It's very nice. Govinda dāsī: So many devotees. Gaurasundara: It was so nice and clean, and everything going on nicely. *Prabhupāda: Cleanliness is the real sign of temple. Tan*-mandira-mārjanādau. *This is the test. Śrī*-vigraha , the Deity. (aside) That is sufficient. Or you can take more, distribute among devotees? Devotee: Ah, all the devotees. Prabhupāda: At least one piece. Devotee: Most devotees are on saṅkīrtana . Devotees on saṅkīrtana . There are only a few devotees in the temple. Prabhupāda: How many? Devotee: In the temple now? Prabhupāda: First of all go and distribute this. Devotee: Maybe ten. Prabhupāda: Go and distribute. *Govinda dāsī: Can I move this a bit closer to you? It has a built*-in microphone. Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much. Govinda dāsī: The Deities . . . did Gaurasundara Prabhu tell you that they . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, I will point out the color. Gaurasundara: Yeah. Govinda dāsī: I have painted Lord Nityānanda. Gaurasundara: She has not yet completed painting on the eyes and so forth, but, er, she has almost finished. Govinda dāsī: The color that you have pointed out is about the color of Lord Caitanya. I mean it is the color that I painted. But that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Both of Them are of the same color. Hmm? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So, you have painted already? Govinda dāsī: No, it is just one coat. It can be removed very easily. Prabhupāda: Oh, you . . . you can . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: It can be changed very easily. Gaurasundara: Yeah, it is very easy, the paint. Govinda dāsī: All I have to do is just scrub it with turpentine. Prabhupāda: So is it possible to make many pairs like that? Govinda dāsī: Yes, it is possible. But first I have to know . . . you have to see Them and make sure that They are proper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: This is the only thing. Prabhupāda: Why don't you send me some more photographs? Govinda dāsī: I have some, but they're not very good. Prabhupāda: Not good, or . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: She has . . . you have the film? Govinda dāsī: Yeah . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: She has some film, and if she has it with her we can have it developed, and in one or two days you can see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: It doesn't have the eyes painted. Govinda dāsī: It doesn't have . . . Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. I want to see the statue, how it is. Govinda dāsī: The problem that I feel . . . the arms are only this high. The ones are like this, and the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Govinda dāsī: Well, that this is how they are, because the clay . . . when I made the original one, I had them a little higher, but the weight of the clay was, ah, a little bit . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, there is no support inside? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. The finished one is not in clay; it is in clay mache. It is very hard, and it is so lightweight that it can be shipped anywhere. Very lightweight. Prabhupāda: Ah. Shipped, but it must be packed nicely. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Govinda dāsī: It won't break very . . . it is not brittle when it is finished. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: It is not like clay. *Prabhupāda: So as, ah, here, just Gaura*-Nitāi? *Gaurasundara: You want for here also Gaura*-Nitāi? *Prabhupāda: Yes, for everywhere. Everywhere Gaura*-Nitāi. Govinda dāsī: Is it possible for you to come and maybe see Them . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: . . . before . . .? I don't want to make Them and . . . that wouldn't be right. I can make changes, whatever changes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: If They are as you say. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . big, eh? (laughs) Gaurasundara: No, They are quite large. Govinda dāsī: This tall. Prabhupāda: Four feet? Gaurasundara: Four feet. Govinda dāsī: Four feet. Prabhupāda: That's nice. And how much space do They take, both brothers? Govinda dāsī: Their arms stick out this far. (aside) This far? And They are this high. And if . . . and Their arms, if they are interlocked, I mean, you know . . . put your arm up. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: If they are like this, about this much space. Prabhupāda: Enough. Sufficient. Gaurasundara: Could be less if you wanted. Govinda dāsī: It depends on how close together you put Them and how much you interlock Their arms. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: But Their arms are perfectly bilateral, you know, just like . . . and the face and hands are together with the thumbs like this, and Their feet are standing straight, with the feet just together, like this. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Govinda dāsī: Face forward. Gaurasundara: We will bring to you, in a few days. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Your old machine is working? Sony? Govinda dāsī: Yes, we had to have it fixed recently. Prabhupāda: Hmm. He wanted more? Take. Govinda dāsī: They probably . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: They're coming out of the corners. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: I've never seen so many devotees, but all of a sudden they have appeared. Prabhupāda: Hmm, then make it . . . Gaurasundara: Make smaller. Prabhupāda: Yes, take out. Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you got this pan? Gaurasundara: In the kitchen. Prabhupāda: Oh, in our kitchen? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: This temple is suitable for our purpose. Everything is in correct position: the temple, the residential quarter, my quarter, lecture room, parking place—everything in order. The bank is near; the post office is near; highway . . . highway or freeway? They call freeway? Gaurasundara: Yes, freeway. Prabhupāda: There are two freeways nearby. There is hospital also near. Very central. Everything is there. (pause) There is no jackfruit? Gaurasundara: I am not sure. What is . . . is there another name for jackfruit? Govinda dāsī: It's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: I saw a picture of it in an India . . . Gaurasundara: I think there is not. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Generally when there is mango there is jackfruit also. They are two cousin*-brothers. Gaurasundara: Ah. It grows on a tree? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: It grows on a tree like mango? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jackfruit grow in Bengal. More than Bengal—Assam, that's all. Gaurasundara: They have . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Big. Gaurasundara: Oh! (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Spikes. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: If we got seeds we could plant them here; we could grow them here. Prabhupāda: And it lasts for many years. It does not die. Just like banyan tree, and continually produces fruit. In Bombay also there is. Everywhere, in India everywhere, but especially in Bengal. Actually, during mango season Bengalis, they eat mango and jackfruit, a little milk. With mango you should drink a little milk; otherwise it will be indigested. Sometime, movement of the bowel, if too much taken - but if you take a little milk it counteracts. (pause) What is the name of that quarter where you have heard the new record? Gaurasundara: Ah, which? That big one on Apple? Prabhupāda: Yes, that one. Gaurasundara: Oh, yes, yes. Govinda dāsī: It is to be played on our radio show. Prabhupāda: Hah? Govinda dāsī: It is to be played on our radio show this week. *Prabhupāda: Ah. They are advertising the record with my picture and Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Many. Govinda dāsī: Big posters? Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Big posters. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Gaurasundara: Ah, billboards. Govinda dāsī: Oh, billboards? Gaurasundara: In San Francisco, when I first arrived . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaurasundara: . . . I was surprised. I looked up and there was this big picture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: All billboards should have such things. I have never seen it. Prabhupāda: George is chanting also. He is always coming, like child, grandchild. (laughs) I told you in the beginning that, "Let him chant, don't disturb." (laughs) Hmm. How many of them are there in your temple? Gaurasundara: Only about three, four, I think. Prabhupāda: And others? Gaurasundara: They were there before, and they have gone since then. There was about fifteen, sixteen others. Most of the Sai's old disciples have gone to other centers all over the world. Prabhupāda: Oh, so he had a big camp. Govinda dāsī: There were. There were about fifteen disciples, he had fifteen. Prabhupāda: They are also cultivating Kṛṣṇa. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That was their advantage. Kṛṣṇa helped them. (referring to tape recorder) This is also Sony? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. What did you pay for it? Govinda dāsī: It was a gift. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: It was given to us. Prabhupāda: Somebody here? Who gave? Govinda dāsī: The, eh, one of Sai's people. They . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Govinda dāsī: They brought . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sai is a rich man's son? Gaurasundara: His father was a doctor. He got the wealth. They managed somehow to raise the money from his father. Prabhupāda: So his father comes to see him. No? Gaurasundara: His father is a Communist. He doesn't like us. Prabhupāda: Ah, Communist. He is Communist? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: He's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But the Communist idea is prohibited in U.S. Gaurasundara: Yeah. He's not very well liked, well, because he's, ah, he's, ah, considered crazy. He endorses Communism. Prabhupāda: Ah. So what does he do? Gaurasundara: He's a retired doctor now. He simply . . . Prabhupāda: He died? Gaurasundara: No, no. He simply sits in his house; he doesn't do anything. Prabhupāda: He does not practice? Gaurasundara: No, he has retired. He simply sits there and he reads some Communist books, like that. Prabhupāda: Communist book is available here? Gaurasundara: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. They can't restrict what can be said. Prabhupāda: Communist party is prohibited. Gaurasundara: Yes, but the books they can't restrict. Govinda dāsī: Their names have to be listed. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Don't they? Their names have to be listed. Prabhupāda: Who is this gentleman? Benjamin Franklin, No? Gaurasundara: What does it say? Yes, that is Franklin. Prabhupāda: Franklin, yes. He was a scientist? Gaurasundara: He was, yes. He invented something. Prabhupāda: Electricity? Gaurasundara: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. Gaurasundara: Yeah, there is a story, you know. He had a kite, and the lightning struck on the kite, and there was a wire went down, and the electricity traveled through the wire. Prabhupāda: There was some fire? Gaurasundara: He proved that lightning was electricity. Yes. I spoke to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They have got very nice article about me in Washington. He gives me a place genuine, and he condemns Maharishi. Gaurasundara: I saw in the bookstore that Maharishi's books are being sold 80% discount. They were stacked on a table. (laughs) That means they weren't finished. Prabhupāda: Eighty percent discount? Gaurasundara: Yes. (laughs) That means they were worthless. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Worthless. (pause) Prabhupāda: Eighty percent discount? Still people are not purchasing? Gaurasundara: No, that's why they simply want to clear it off. They are trying to give it away. Who is this? Very nice. (pause) Prabhupāda: So Los Angeles, we are getting mango? . . . (indistinct) . . . Hawaii mango. Govinda dāsī: They just fly them over. Prabhupāda: Imported from Hawaii? Gaurasundara: Ah, yes, I think. Prabhupāda: At what price they are sold? Govinda dāsī: In Hawaii? Gaurasundara: In Hawaii? Prabhupāda: They are not sold? Gaurasundara: In Hawaii? No, they are free. Prabhupāda: Free? Gaurasundara: Oh, as much as you like. Prabhupāda: Ācchā! Gaurasundara: Any man, you go to his house, "Can I pick mango?" "Oh, bring bucket." Govinda dāsī: On saṅkīrtana an old couple drove up, opened their truck and brought out two crates of mangoes. Gaurasundara: Yeah, they bring them to us, "Please take." They are falling on the grass. Govinda dāsī: We rake them up also. *Gaurasundara: No, the people don't eat much mangoes. They are meat*-eaters now. Govinda dāsī: The children eat mangoes. *Prabhupāda: Meat*-eaters cannot eat fruits, milk—no taste for them. Russia also the same. They eat too much meat, they don't like vegetables and fruits. Govinda dāsī: And can you get them there? Prabhupāda: No. Very rare. You cannot get even good rice. (pause; eating) They do not make any preparation of mango? And any use for pineapple? Gaurasundara: No. You mean canning or something? Prabhupāda: They do not? No. Gaurasundara: The Chinese make a mango candy. Govinda dāsī: Mango pickle, and mango, er, dried mango. Gaurasundara: Yes, dried mangoes, like candies. Govinda dāsī: Exactly. I made you some mango pickle. It's soaking in mustard oil now. Gaurasundara: They make also mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: I have a big jar of mango pickle soaking in mustard oil. For one year it has been soaking in mustard oil. Probably the older it gets, the better. I would have brought it, but I was in such a rush to get here. Prabhupāda: Did you eat it? Govinda dāsī: Oh, no. I'm saving it for you. Prabhupāda: No, you can eat, with purī . With purī . . . Gaurasundara: Hah. Prabhupāda: . . . take some mango, with little salt. You don't require any vegetable, it is so nice. Gaurasundara: Mango chutney? Govinda dāsī: We make mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Mango chutney or pickle. Gaurasundara: Oh, mango pickle, yes. Govinda dāsī: Every week in our feast we have mango chutney. Prabhupāda: Very good. Govinda dāsī: If it is free, cheapest thing we can make. Prabhupāda: Mango chutney made of green mango is better. Govinda dāsī: That is generally what we make. Prabhupāda: Eh? Govinda dāsī: Lately we have been doing mango preserves, making with ripe, because there are so many ripe mangoes all the season almost. Prabhupāda: No, this ripe mango, they can be pulped and dried in the sun. Is it time? Govinda dāsī: Yes, I am going to try again now that the hot season has come. Just in the last few weeks it has been hot. You cook it a little while with a little salt first? Prabhupāda: I have no practically, but it is simple. Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: It does not keep long. It does not keep. But if you dry in the sun. Govinda dāsī: Well, whenever we have dried it, it went rancid. Prabhupāda: You did not cut it? Govinda dāsī: Maybe the sun was not hot enough for it those times. I think the sun has to be very hot. It is much hotter in India than it is in Hawaii. We were burning a few years ago when Maharishi Mahesh Yogi . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He is cheating . . . (indistinct) . . . he's a rascal, and offended many Vaiṣṇavas. George was after him . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: George started this whole thing. Prabhupāda: Maharishi? Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore he was doing concert to these students. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: In the beginning. (pause) . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Some frosting: sugar, butter, coconut, milk. Prabhupāda: Whatever we do, milk preparation must be there; otherwise it is not so good. (pause) Good . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hah? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yeah. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: They have to be put in . . . (indistinct) . . . right? Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: (indistinct) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 2, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: The fighting must be there, but that does not mean separation. I fought with my wife all along, yes, but there is no question of separation. I have . . . I have since made provision for my wife . . . (indistinct) . . . so one must be responsible. Marriage is not a joke. Govinda dāsī: In this country it is such a joke that it is hard for them to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . of marriage, there must be some struggle, but the marriage is required. They have introduced new . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: We have never had a single marriage in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: We have never had a single marriage in Hawaii, although we have been here two and a half years. Prabhupāda: Why? Govinda dāsī: I guess because . . . (laughs) I don't know. No one wants to get married. Because it's a serious thing, it is not taken lightly. (break) Prabhupāda: Why did not . . . (indistinct) (break) Gaurasundara: Fourth of July, Independence Day weekend, so . . . Prabhupāda: Independence Day you are free? Gaurasundara: No. But there's so much traveling that it becomes too . . . Prabhupāda: Crowded. Gaurasundara: Yes. So perhaps we will wait. Govinda dāsī: 'Til Monday. Gaurasundara: Until Monday. Prabhupāda: There is very much crowd? Gaurasundara: Pretty much. Prabhupāda: People are coming or going? Gaurasundara: Coming and going. Prabhupāda: Everywhere this Independence Day will be observed? Gaurasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: It is American Independence. Prabhupāda: But it is observed in New York especially, no everywhere? Gaurasundara: Not particularly. In Hawaii they are shooting off firecrackers all night. Everywhere, everybody is throwing firecrackers. Govinda dāsī: It sounds like a war, and it smells like gun smoke. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: It sounds like a war . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: . . . in Hawaii. It is so bad, firecrackers going all the time, it sounds just like a war. And you smell the powder, gunpowder. Prabhupāda: Everywhere? Govinda dāsī: No, especially in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hawaii was included when America declared independence? Gaurasundara: Oh, no. About five years ago. No, I think it was . . . I think it was 1960 it became a state. Prabhupāda: 1960. Gaurasundara: There was 48 states for a long time, and then about the last 10 years, Hawaii and Alaska were added, made 50. Prabhupāda: At that time, before that, Hawaii was under some king? Gaurasundara: No, Hawaii was a territory. It was a United States Territory, but it wasn't attached to the United States. Prabhupāda: Territory means, er, conquered? Gaurasundara: Well, it was . . . Prabhupāda: Occupied by force. Gaurasundara: Well, it was purchased, purchased from Russia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: No, that was Alaska. Gaurasundara: Oh, Hawaii was . . . yes it was, more or less taken over by Americans. It was also a territory. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . tomorrow is also . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Yes, maybe . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yes, tomorrow is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: At what time? I wish I had known . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is this called? . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Do you need a new sweater, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: Do you need a new sweater? Prabhupāda: I have got many. Govinda dāsī: Ah, never mind. Prabhupāda: Sweater I have got many now. Gaurasundara: One. Govinda dāsī: One. Is it that saffron one? Prabhupāda: I got . . . last year I got over one dozen. Gaurasundara: But not here. Govinda dāsī: You gave them all away. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: You gave them all away. (laughs) Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I distributed some in London; I distributed some here. (Govinda dāsī laughs) Devotee: And in India there are still many. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: In Bombay there are still many. There are so many clothes in Bombay from the devotees. One . . . one girl here, she was asking what she could make for you. And I suggested that she should make a sweater. And she . . . (indistinct) . . . the devotee that come in . . . come in said please . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. The spirit is nice. Devotee: So I told one girl . . . Prabhupāda: To do something, to serve something, that is the way of understanding Kṛṣṇa. When you have the service attitude, then Kṛṣṇa becomes pleased. Whole process is service, according to one's capacity. So it is not required in that one has to serve in this way or that way. No. The spirit should be service to the best capacity. Take, for example, I came here with a service position, that I must give some service to my Guru Mahārāja, not that I thought of success. But the spirit was that Guru Mahārāja told me I must do something, whatever I can. It may be failure; it may be success—let me try. This service spirit is the only goal. There is no other way. *You must be a servant—either you're a servant of māyā , or the senses, or Kṛṣṇa. You cannot become master. We are all servant. The so*-called karmīs are servant of their senses, that's all. They're working so hard, being servant of their senses. The karmīs , they are servant of sex, that's all. That is their encouragement: they are working so hard, they will enjoy sex. That is their only solace. Is that not? What other things they have got to enjoy? The are simply suffering, simply suffering, working hard; their only satisfaction is enjoying sex. That is the center: the servant of sex. All karmīs . *Not only karmīs , everyone—all animals, all beasts, everyone—servant of sex. And the human so*-called civilization, they have made arrangement: big sex interest. They are advertising sex, their theater is sex, their club is sex, their home is sex. What do they know beyond sex? So they are servant of sex. Is it not? Servant of sex, senses. Sex is the ultimate sense, but there are many other senses. Tongue is sense, ear is sense, nose is sense, eyes are sense. Eh? Then genital is sense. The sense organs, different. So everyone is servant. Somebody is servant of Kṛṣṇa, somebody is servant of sex. If you remain servant of the senses, you are never happy. If you became servant of Kṛṣṇa . . . you have to remain servant; you cannot be master. Rather, if you serve Kṛṣṇa then you become master of your senses. That is gosvāmī . To become servant of Kṛṣṇa means master of senses. So the senses cannot now order, "You do this." "No, I am engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Therefore he becomes master. Then he becomes gosvāmī . Go means senses, svāmī means master. When you become master of the senses, then you're gosvāmī . And when you become servant of the senses, you are godāsa . Now our whole process is to become servant of Kṛṣṇa so that automatically I become master of the senses. There is no separatedness. One becomes servant of the king, he gets a post, master of the citizens. Is it not? Minister, big post, secretary. He becomes servant of the king or state but becomes master of the people, governor. So if you become servant of Kṛṣṇa, you become master. Otherwise you remain servant of senses. If somebody says that, "What is the wrong to remain servant of the senses? After all, I am servant. Instead of becoming servant of Kṛṣṇa, if I remain servant of senses, what is the wrong? Tell me." Govinda dāsī: They are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: They are never satisfied. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the . . . Govinda dāsī: They are never . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: A little service to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is so kind and He is so much satisfied. And here, you go on serving . . . they're never satisfied. The servant of the world is said that he . . . my practical example, that I have made provisions for my wife and children so they can simply eat and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but still they want me to become their servant. So dangerous . . . (indistinct) . . . hmm? Even if you keep them very nicely, still they will require your service.What does he do, what . . . (indistinct) . . . never happy. You cannot make happy, māyā's servant. But if you give little service to Kṛṣṇa, He immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . and immense profit. The māyā is so strong that you go on the best service, life long, we still we will find no satisfaction. Therefore the service attitude is the only process to elevate oneself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this automatically. Why these girls and these boys, why you are all trying to serve? That is natural. It is natural. Kṛṣṇa is not directly contacted, so Kṛṣṇa's representative that, that attitude, "Let me serve to the servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is good policy. And we have to accept this. We cannot deny it. The service spirit will be . . . otherwise I don't require anyone's service, by living alone. And now we are creating so many servants of Kṛṣṇa, when they offer some service, we accept . . . (indistinct) Actually I don't require service; I can remain alone. I was doing that, (laughs) actually. But when preaching was there, the creating servant of Kṛṣṇa, then I have to accept, to encourage them, to train them. That is spiritual master's business. But the service is accepted on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, not for personal benefit. I cannot accept any service for my personal account unless I serve Kṛṣṇa. I serve Kṛṣṇa means I make you a perfect servant of Kṛṣṇa. So I have to train. That is my . . . Gaurasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can I cut up one of these mangoes for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Come on. Very good. Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation with Gaurasundara) Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that? Gaurasundara: Govinda dāsī suggested that I peel like this, because sometimes there are some worms. Prabhupāda: Worms? Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do they have worms in them in India? There is a little bug. It stings the skin, and if it stings the skin there may be some tiny, tiny worms. Gaurasundara: I should peel the whole? Prabhupāda: No. Gaurasundara: Peel it off? Govinda dāsī: He can't eat it like this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) That's how we eat it in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: I am expecting . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: They might do it. They have done it before. No more? You want me to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Govinda dāsī: (laughing) It's the sweetest sweetball I've ever had. Prabhupāda: Yes. Who has made it? Gaurasundara: I think Śilāvatī. Prabhupāda: Śilāvatī is good cook . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: Would you like for me to cut it? *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . in mango season, my father used to purchase a full basket. In India they are sold in baskets. They were very cheap in those days. Three rupees, a big basket at least containing more than hundred mangoes, first*-class mangoes. Otherwise one rupee, two rupees. So in our childhood we take each mango, and while playing, we were eating like this, in this way. Govinda dāsī: The children in Hawaii, they are always eating mangoes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Their faces are always yellow from eating. Prabhupāda: I remember I was traveling with my father . . . (indistinct) . . . a train, and he gave me a big mango. At that time I was small, so all sides had become moist with mango juice, and when it is dried up, I was feeling so much inconvenience, but there was no water. Finally, I knew how to undo it. I remember that precarious time. (pause) Govinda dāsī: That's how we eat them in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: That's how we eat them in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: I prefer to eat them that way. Gaurasundara will not eat them unless they are cut into little pieces. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: I prefer to eat them like that. But Gaurasundara will not eat mangoes unless they are cut into little pieces. They are juicy. Prabhupāda: How Kṛṣṇa has arranged. How is nicely cut, it is total juice. Still they cannot keep all. Govinda dāsī: They come in such abundance, just during the heat of the sun. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: They come in such abundance, just during the heat of the sun or whatever such fruit is needed. Prabhupāda: In Russia there was no mango, no fruit or nectar. Whatever you have prepared, you have to take from government's store. Stand up in the line, wait for one hour, two hours. And for meat, you can get easily. (long pause) Manufacture such a nice thing in your factories. Then you say that there is no God. In the name of becoming scientist they are so fools and rascals. What do you think? Do you admit or not? Gaurasundara: Yes. They sent . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Gaurasundara: Did you know the Russians sent three men to space for twenty*-four days? Did you hear that? Prabhupāda: I was . . . I was hearing from Karandhara. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: What happened? They are dead. Gaurasundara: Yes. They were talking with them on the radio, and everything nice, and then when they landed they opened the capsule and they were dead. And they thought perhaps that's why they died. They think because they were in weightless condition, they could not return any more to the earth's surface. Prabhupāda: All nonsense. What is the benefit of sending a man in that condition? Simply propaganda. Unlearned. In that senseless way, why they come back on this planet? Why not other planet? What was the idea? Gaurasundara: Oh, they want to establish a space station. They want to build like a building up in space, floating around the earth. Govinda dāsī: They've completely lost their minds. Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dāsī: They've completely lost their minds. They don't even know their ideas anymore . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa tried to make a staircase for going directly to heaven, it is like that. Rāvaṇa said that, "Why there should be religious life for going to heaven?" Just like they are also challenging that, "Why one should be religious, godly, for being elevated to the heavenly planets? We shall go by missile." That is their plan. So this challenge of Rāvaṇa class of men is always there. You cannot conquer the laws of God or nature by Rāvaṇa's mentality. That is not possible. You can try, but it will never be successful. So the result is instead of establishing a platform, they establish a dying. That is the natural result. But still they are proud of their science. Why don't you write? Gaurasundara: Yes, I should write. Prabhupāda: And they cannot explain why he died. What is the advancement? What is the next . . . or what is the actual result of this expedition? Gaurasundara: They become very depressed. Prabhupāda: They have written? Gaurasundara: Yes. The whole Russian nation is shocked. Prabhupāda: Then they will be depressed more and more. Your Lenin or Stalin cannot save you. They await more depression. In a godless country you will simply be depressed. Note it down. Māyā bhraṣṭa divesena . When one becomes too much attached to the influence of māyā , they talk like that and become disappointed. Again attempt, another; again disappointment. There is a story in India. There is a province, Orissa. The people of that province are very cowardly. There is a story of the Orissan man that one man, he was quarreling with him, so he challenged him, "All right, you have said you can slap me. Slap me. All right. I am . . . (indistinct) . . . slap me." So he slapped in this way. "Oh, you have slapped me. All right, you have slapped this side. I see you have slapped this side, again you slap this side." Still he said: "All right, you have slapped enough. You can slap . . . can you can slap my son?" and slap. So the slapping is going on, and still he is challenging. These rascals are like this. Nature's slapping is going on, "All right, now better this attempt, and this attempt, this attempt." Exactly the same theory after . . . (indistinct) . . . in every item they are being failure, but still, "All right. Slap me. Attempt like this." The Americans, they advertise they have gone, and they brought some dust, without any profit. They are also proud. And the Russians, they are killing so many men, and afterwards they are proud. "All right, this was failure. All right, try again." The same slapping process. Nature is slapping, seriously, but still, "All right, you have slapped in this way. Can you slap like this?" . . . (indistinct) They are so shameless, shameless rascals. They have no shame even that, "we have been proved, useless. You stop this rascaldom." No. They will, "Another. Slap me in this way." That I have seen. This is going on. In every respect they are being slapped, but still challenging, "All right, you can slap. You can slap me in this way." We have . . . (indistinct) Why they have become successful? Still they are proud of their learning. Simply wasting time and teaching others to waste time. This is going on. From time in memorial, Rāvaṇa's society like this. Hiraṇyakaśipu tried to become immortal. So these attempts are going on perpetually, but history proves that nobody has become successful. When this news came? Gaurasundara: The one yesterday? Prabhupāda: Hmm. What was the heading? Gaurasundara: "Three die in space." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: In the Bible also there is somebody who tried to build a tower of Babel. Prabhupāda: What is that story? Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Gaurasundara: They tried to build one tower to Heaven Prabhupāda: Ah. And what happened? Gaurasundara: It failed. The whole thing broke. Govinda dāsī: It smashed. Prabhupāda: (aside) What is that? *Devotee: Śacī*-suta prabhu requests that you chant on some new beads for him. Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee: He said he lost his old tulāsi beads a year ago, and he needed some others. That's why he asked. Also there is one set of beads from one prabhu on saṅkīrtana . (aside) So you like Gaura-śakti prabhu . Prabhupāda: So I am enjoying this mango in this way. Devotee: I am enjoying mangoes, so many mangoes. Can I ask you one more question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about these initiations? Tomorrow's the last batch. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: There are (counting) three, four, five, six . . . there are eight for . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Devotee: There are eight for harināma initiation and nine for gāyatrī , but one of the names for gāyatrī is Loka*-mālā, which you have just initiated, either today or yesterday, Loka-mālā. But she is supposed to be married to one boy who is a brāhmin this Sunday coming. She is supposed to be married to one boy who is a brāhmin , and so they are recommending her for second. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: When she is . . . (indistinct) Devotee: She is going to be married this coming Sunday. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Devotee: That is all right? Prabhupāda: So building up the platform in space is faster? Gaurasundara: Yes. If they go up, they cannot come back again. They have to stay there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gaurasundara: If they go out and live on that platform, they cannot return again to earth. Because their heart can no longer pump; it becomes lazy, and when they return to the gravity the heart is smashed. So it means that if they go up there, then they have to stay. Prabhupāda: That proposition is nonsense. Either they can stay, and if they come, they die. That is good proposition. (laughter) Why not stay here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Like that. But your position is that, "You go, we cannot stay there. We have to come back." And if you come back you die. So why not they should stay and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and then prepare yourself to go to the highest planets, or any other planet? *Kṛṣṇa can give you any other planet you like. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja wanted his father's kingdom, so Kṛṣṇa gave him . . . (indistinct) . . . gave him the polestar. That is Dhruva Mahārāja's kingdom. Kṛṣṇa can give you anything you want. Why you bother yourself with that? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So we are the most intelligent persons in the world, because we don't take such foolish trouble, but we are assured through injuction of the best planet, or wherever we want to go. So the mūḍhā , they will not accept this. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). They will never become Kṛṣṇa conscious, because they are rascals. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ , duṣkṛtinaḥ . They are always sinful, eating meat. They cannot do this. They will travel like . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 4, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . some treatment he is undergoing? Gaurasundara: No, there is no treatment. Govinda dāsī: He says there is no treatment. Prabhupāda: So what he is eating? Govinda dāsī: He eats. Eats fruits, vegetables, capātīs , rice. Prabhupāda: Nicely? Govinda dāsī: Oh, yes. He eats very much . . . Prabhupāda: Then, but he gets sick all the time. So what is the cause of sickness? Gaurasundara: Well, from the fasting too long it appears that his digestive system has stopped from lack of use, and now he just doesn't . . . Prabhupāda: No. Now whatever he is eating, he is evacuating? Govinda dāsī: He has trouble. He has . . . Gaurasundara: No. He has trouble, He has great trouble. Govinda dāsī: He has to drink prune juice. Every, every day we have to supply him juice. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: Or otherwise he can't eat. It won't . . . his digestive system won't work. I have to show now. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So he is not getting strength by eating? Gaurasundara: Well, somewhat. Prabhupāda: He should not eat too much, but eat substantial. What is his age? *Gaurasundara: I think twenty*-one. Prabhupāda: Oh, he is young boy. So, easily digestible, nutritious. So dal , he can take. Dal ? Gaurasundara: I think so. Prabhupāda: Dal , capātīs , rice. Gaurasundara: He takes a lot of fruit and vegetables. Prabhupāda: That's all? Govinda dāsī: Lots of papaya. It helps his digestion. Prabhupāda: Papaya? Govinda dāsī: Hm. He eats four or five papayas in a day. Prabhupāda: He chants regularly? Chanting? Govinda dāsī: Chanting. Yes. He's not so much disturbed by it, because he's been sick a long time, so . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: He said in raising the body heat with kuṇḍalinī yoga it burned the nervous system. I don't know anything about the . . . Prabhupāda: Kuṇḍalinī is bad to him? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this kuṇḍalinī ? What do . . . what is the benefit of kuṇḍalinī ? Govinda dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: We have never such attraction for kuṇḍalinī . . . (indistinct) . . . we simply believe in the words of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, that's all. No kuṇḍalinī . I was attracted, "Oh, he is speaking nicely, "Kṛṣṇa can be seen." " So I was attracted, like that: "Kṛṣṇa is not dead. He is living." In the beginning (laughs) that enlightened me. From the very beginning of our life we are trained, "Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is person." Later on, in our school, college days, by bad association there was some impersonalist tendency. But when I heard from Guru Mahārāja that Kṛṣṇa is person, the Supreme, oh, I became so much . . . (indistinct) . . . yes. Then it was fixed up. I have written that, "Impersonal calamities thou hast moved." There was a current, when I was little, thinking that Lord is impersonal; that was not appealing. And when it was confirmed, I became very much glad. Any other questions? Govinda dāsī: No. Gaurasundara is leaving today, I think. Are you leaving tomorrow? Prabhupāda: He can leave tomorrow, together. You are leaving tomorrow? *Govinda dāsī: Yes. I only paid twenty*-five . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: On the deities, what should be the size? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaurasundara: The deities. Prabhupāda: Four feet is nice. Gaurasundara: That's five of them? Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm Gaurasundara: Five of them together, four feet? Govinda dāsī: That's very nice. No. Now They won't be as wide, They will be taller. Prabhupāda: You can see the picture. (pause) No. Then you can make short. You see. Govinda dāsī: You see, I don't have to completely remake it. I have the mold already. I won't have to . . . three figures I won't have to remake. Three figures are made. I just make one more. This figure. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You paint the picture; you do it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: Kṛṣṇa will supply us a big enough temple. (offers obeisances to Śrīla Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: You can take this flower garland. Govinda dāsī: This big garland? Prabhupāda: Yes. Divide it into two. (pause) (break) (end) Conversation -- July 5, 1971, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . simply our literatures are meant for selling not for reading, is that very good sign? Reading first, selling secondary. So you tasted this śukta ? Devotee: Yes, very nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice? You have also tasted? Karandhara: I had a little that was left over that was cold. Prabhupāda: Never mind . . . Govinda dāsī: It's delicious. Prabhupāda: Indian dishes, especially in Bengal, Bengal especially, the śukta is the beginning. Śāk and śukta . Beginning vegetable and śukta , in the beginning. And at the end, milk, banana, sweet. Eating: beginning bitter, ending sweet. Madhureṇa samāpayet . All kinds of tastes: bitter, sour, pungent, gradually ending in sweet. That is eating. *Catur*-vidha. Catur-vidha-śrī-bhagavat-prasāda (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 4). Carvya , cūṣya , lehya , peya . Something chewing, something . . . what is called? Licking, something swallowing. Carvya , cūṣya , lehya , peya . Cūṣya , cūṣya means just like a lozenges. What is called? Just not taken at once. What is? Devotees: Sucking. *Prabhupāda: Sucking, yes. Sucking, cūṣya , sucking. Carvya , chewing. Chewing, sucking, swallowing and drinking. Four kinds of food must be there: carvya , cūṣya . . . catur*-vidha. Catur means four, and under four headings there are many items, tastes. That is tastes: bitter, sour, salty, pungent and so on. Then that is variety, this . . . variety is the mother of enjoyment. Then you enjoy eating.So it was cold, it was not tasteful? Karandhara: Oh, it was nice. Prabhupāda: This flame was not nice, otherwise it would have come still better. There was some defect in the flame, so it absorbed more ghee than necessary. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the phone came? Devotee: Washington. Prabhupāda: Who was talking? Devotee: Kālindī. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa.In India we have spent not less than five lakhs of rupees, in so many ways. That has been collected only by selling books. Only Birla paid me twenty*-five thousand for purchasing . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise whatever collection is there and is spent, it is the books. Huge festivals in Calcutta and Bombay—two lakhs . And I have toured over all India—Calcutta, Bombay, Delhi, Amritsar, Indore, Surat . . . Gorakhpur, Rajamandri. In these places I was present. Disciples, they have independently gone Agra, Ahmedabad, Vṛndāvana. And our monthly expenditure is more than ten thousand rupees. We are paying four thousand rupees' rent in two places, besides touring and eating. So all this money has been collected by selling this *Kṛṣṇa Book* and *Nectar of Devotion* , the magazine. *Why not here? India is not English*-knowing country. And here all of them are English nation. We should make vigorous propaganda for this membership program, and there is no financial difficulty. Devotee: Today we distributed a thousand Back to Godheads . Prabhupāda: Very nice. Devotee: Nine hundred and ninety three to be exact. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all right. 9-9-3. So you work Back to Godhead together. So you collected at the rate twenty*-five? Karandhara: Oh, much more than that. Prabhupāda: Much more than that? Karandhara: I think we averaged about forty cents a magazine. Prabhupāda: You have collected about five hundred dollars? Karandhara: Should be four hundred and fifty or five hundred dollars. I'm not sure. *Prabhupāda: I think that Dai*-Nippon says that he shall print 200,000 copies. Send them money and take it. Distribute. Karandhara: As it is, there is . . . *Prabhupāda: Dai*-Nippon is a good patron. They are giving us credit, up to 100,000 already. In BTG fund they are allowing us seventy and eighty thousand dollars, and Book Fund $20,000. Why should we not take advantage of it? They give us goods worth $100,000, and we make profit and pay. Why not make this arrangement? For, say, 50,000 worth dollars goods we take from him, we make at least $200,000. Is it not? *So where is this financial crisis? Simply you have to organize distribution. You haven't got to pay from pocket Dai*-Nippon. Pay whenever. Collect and pay. That, for this arrangement, I went there. Collect unpaid. But actually, at least in India, I did not take any money from here. Simply I ordered books there, and with that books we made so much work on collection. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So organize. That is our, I mean to say, material financial difficulty as well as making propaganda—distribution of literature. Your have not gone into the actual reading public: schools, colleges, university libraries. They are only on the street. But the scholarly reading public you have not yet touched. Is it not? Scholarly reading public means libraries, schools, colleges, universities. But you have not touched them. You are simply distributing on the street. Our literature is meant for higher section, scholarly section. That section we have not yet touched—philosophers, religionists, highly intellectual public. We are meant for that, our literature. That you have not touched yet. So we should endeavor to deal with it. What these great delete philosophers will speak before us? We have got so much stock. They can simply present some theories or thesis, and we can defy all their . . . you are better delete than they are. Dhruva Mahārāja, by his meditation, he startled the whole universe. And we are so many, and by our devotional service we cannot startle? What is that word? Startle? Hah? The whole America. Is it not possible? That is possible. If we go according to the prescribed, we can startle by that spiritual power. That is possible. I am explaining now in my tape how Dhruva Mahārāja startled the whole universe by his spiritual meditation. In Calcutta we defeated Ramakrishna Mission. Nobody is going there.In India we have now cut down all the svāmīs . Everyone is thinking of us, not of them. There are so many big, big svāmīs —Chinmayananda Swami, Vivekananda Swami. Now people are talking about us. They are bringing Vivekananda . . . as soon as our talk is there, he gives reference to Vivekananda, and he is doing more than Vivekananda. But we are doing many millions times more than Vivekananda. What Vivekananda has done, and what he has power to do? What does he know? But if we say like that, that will be little pride. But that's a fact. Vivekananda's institutions are here for the last eighty years, or more than that. He started in 1893. Vivekananda came here, in America, in 1893 and started a center in New York, 72nd Street. But in comparison to their center and our center, there is ocean of difference. Here, Los Angeles, they have got their branch? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what they are doing, and what we are doing, ISKCON's right here. Similarly in New York. And where they have got . . . I think in America? Karandhara: They have one in San Francisco. They have about ten in America. Prabhupāda: Ten. Karandhara: Ten. Prabhupāda: And we have got forty in three years. And in eighty years they have established ten. And how many American students are there working for them? They are . . . every center is conducted by Indian svāmīs . Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And where is the Americans are working? Huh? For working their missionary work they have to bring from India svāmīs , but here American svāmīs are working, in our branches. Where is the Indian svāmīs ? Before my coming I was talking with Bon Mahārāja. He was of opinion then you can talk of our philosophy only, but if you try to convert them, then it will not be successful. That is not preaching. You have to take them to your philosophy. That is successful preaching. That is what my Guru Mahārāja . . . Otherwise what is the preaching? Simply talking? Because he did so. He never attempted. He was three years in London. Not a single person came to understand this philosophy, and later on Guru Mahārāja was disgusted and called him back. Guru Mahārāja sent him, that "You go and create some situation, then I shall go." But he could not create that situation. This is our telephone? Nobody is there? Karandhara: I think everyone is at ārotika . Prabhupāda: Oh. Sit down, sit down. Don't bother. At least one man should remain in the office. That Nixon meeting, is that . . . is there any attempt to do it? Devotee: Not yet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because we did not know what Your Divine Grace was going to do, how long you are going to be here. And as I mentioned, we wanted to try and get one with a couple of other people first, because we thought it would be a better chance to get it with Nixon if you want—that is being attempted—and if Mayor Lindsay first. Prabhupāda: Who is that? Devotee: Mayor Lindsay. Prabhupāda: Mayor Lindsay? Devotee: Mayor Lindsay, of New York City. Prabhupāda: Oh, Mayor. Oh. Devotee: Some years ago his office wrote a letter . . . Prabhupāda: He was Lindsay? Devotees: Lindsay. Prabhupāda: Oh, Lindsay. Yes. He is important. Devotee: Yes, he is very important. Then we thought we would try for Nixon. Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, these leaders, actually they do not want people should be very intelligent. You see? They want to keep the people in ignorance and exploit their ignorance for their personal benefits. That is their policy. Actually they do not want welfare of the citizens. They want only post, and bluffing the citizens they want to get vote and sit down. That is their policy, all these politicians. They have no thinking how people will be happy. That is beyond their dreaming, neither they want it. But actually these position—this mayor or governor or topmost head—they should be thinking of the welfare of the people. But it is just opposite. Instead of thinking of their welfare - how to exploit them and make his position secure. That's all. Therefore I do not expect any good result by seeing people like that. Devotee: Should we continue? Should we bother with them? Prabhupāda: Bother in this way - if you can arrange some meeting, inviting some of these big men, and if some big men come—just like here we can do, some big men—then subordinate big men will come. Then we get a chance to present our philosophy. In that way you can try it. Do you follow what I say? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: If . . . suppose the governor is coming in our place, and you invite the magistrate, the judges, the secretaries, big, big men, they will come. Now when they are assembled we can present our philosophy. And public will see, "Oh, such, such big men, they have come." So we get some publicity. Otherwise you cannot get any other benefit from it. They are politicians. They are not interested that people should go back to home, back to Godhead. They are interested that they must remain foolish and pay tax and enjoy, that's all. That is their position. And you cannot expect from rascals. All bad character rascals, cheater. That is my opinion. Cheater number one. They have no good wishes for the people at heart. So how we can convince them about our good philosophy? They don't want that people should be advanced in philosophy, in religion, in character. No. They don't want. They want to keep them in darkness. Devotee: So should we continue seeing these men, these congressmen and senators? Prabhupāda: Provided that you can arrange a meeting of them. Individual seeing is no good. It will not produce any good effect. Now you can . . . suppose that if we say that we are not allowing illicit sex. Do you think they will like it very much? If the rascal is himself addicted to these habits, so what will be effect of our . . . if we say that we are training our students to this principle, character, they will laugh, because they don't want that the citizens should be so advanced . . . (indistinct) . . . life. They want to make them thief, cunning, rascal, drunkard, so that they can exploit. That's all. Now that boy, Ranchor, his father was canvassing, "What is wrong there in illicit sex?" His father, "Take a car, enjoy girls. Why not?" like that. His father was instructing. His father was like that; his mother was like that. His . . . he told me all this. The only benefit we can derive that if they become a member, then that membership will lead many others to become, "Oh, Nixon has become member? I shall become." That's all. Because they are their ideal. Nixon has become, ah, then whole America will become, if you make Nixon member. If that much you can do.Somehow or other that, "It is a good movement, and it is only 1100 rupees, a good cause. Please become a member." Somehow or other if you can do that, then his membership will help you to recruit another 100,000 members. Devotee: I don't see how we can convince Nixon. Nixon is the worst of the lot. Prabhupāda: That is . . . then utilize; *otherwise it is very difficult to convince them about our philosophy. They are themselves rascals. All of them are drunkards, illicit*-sex hunters, meat-eaters, gamblers and everything. All good qualifications. And they are in the higher position. If you go instruct them, they will: "Ah, these rascals, they are begging, and they have come to instruct me!" Because their idea is that, "This religious sect, they could not do anything in the material world; now they have taken the shelter of the spiritual world." They think like that. Because they have no meaning for that, anything of spiritual, they do not understand. Each airplane company has got at least five hundred to one thousand planes, and there are so many companies, many thousands of planes. Each airplane is flying, but we can see hardly one accident. Many thousands are flying—only your country; *I am not speaking of other countries. Many thousands of planes are flying, day and night, Europe and America. Space is so big. Koṭiṣu vasudhādi*-vibhūti-bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). And there are many crores of planets. Each planet has different character, different climate. What they are talking about that Russian failure? Capsule? Karandhara: I haven't heard the latest news on that. Prabhupāda: Capsule. Capsule dead. They will create platform? Karandhara: Yes. That's what they are attempting. A space station. Prabhupāda: It is not station; it is moving. And how the station will help them? What is the idea? Devotee: They hope to stockpile materials and build one rocket ship up in the station, and from there they can send the rocket ship off. They want to assemble one rocket out in space that will be suited to travel to other planets. Karandhara: When they shoot a rocket up from the earth they have to spend so much energy just to get it off the earth. They figured they will conserve by being able to shoot it from outer space. *Prabhupāda: So first of all, suppose twenty*-five thousand miles away they have got a station, then they go there. Then? What is the benefit of it? Devotee: Well the most difficult part is getting out there, because the earth's gravity burns up all their fuel. So they need many small rockets to bring up all the parts and put it together and then shoot it from there. Because just getting from here to there takes most of the energy to overcome that gravity. When they get up there there's no more gravity; they are free to travel freely. Prabhupāda: What is their idea? I could not understand. Govinda dāsī: It's insane. Devotee: I'm not sure whether it's correct, but they have to have so much fuel, which takes up a lot of room, to get them from earth to, say, Mars, and most of that fuel is consumed getting away from the earth's gravity. But if they were to build a rocket ship away from the earth's gravity, they wouldn't need so much fuel and they could get it to Mars and back with a smaller ship, with less fuel. Prabhupāda: And how that ship will go? Devotee: The same fuel, but less. They can't make a rocket ship big enough yet to carry all the fuel they need to get them to the planets they want to go to and then back again. Karandhara: It's like a middle station. Devotee: Yes. It's like a filling station. Prabhupāda: But the filling matter must be there, material. Karandhara: They will transport that up by many small rockets. They'll shoot many small rockets carrying supplies, and then they will stockpile them. Prabhupāda: How utopian. Govinda dāsī: It's insane. Prabhupāda: Childish. And they are claiming to be scientists. Small rockets . . . they will also finish. Small rockets also consume so much fuel. How many hundreds of small rockets have to be sent? And the fuel has to be taken from here. Just see. How they are making themselves . . . if the supply, everything has to be taken from here, it is just like picnic in the sky—take everything from there and hold a picnic there. Like that. So much huge quantity of gas, petrol, required, and they will be carried from the station, another station. Simply dreaming. And before executing the plans, so many men died. And still they are hoping. First of all let them finish their moon planet business. What they have done about the moon planet? Why again they are aiming at Mars or Venus? Go to moon planet. Your flags are there—go live there. They are selling land there also, there was advertisement. And many people purchased return ticket. Is that fact? Karandhara: That is some advertisement they are doing, yes. Prabhupāda: So what happened to these ideas? Why not make a colony? That's a good idea. But they said that no living entity can live there, at the same time? Then what is the use of going there? What is the exact idea? Karandhara: Well, their idea is they will make . . . one idea is they will build a big dome, and they will just create an atmosphere, just like what's on earth. So the only way they can live there is to bring the earth there—all the atmosphere, all the things. Devotee (2): Then they are hoping there will be mineral resources they can exploit on the moon. Prabhupāda: And how to bring them, the minerals? Devotee (2): Oh, they can build up there, make factories and . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee (2): They can make factories and make more rockets on the moon. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Devotee (2): Yes. Another station. *Prabhupāda: By covering them with that dress which cost over $40,000. (laughter) And they will run on factory? That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : pralayāntām upāśritāḥ (BG 16.11) thinking of, planning for, sense gratification till the time of death. Just like all big men—Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi—simply making big plans—Hitler or Churchill. And before executing the plan, everything is finished. So many Hitlers and so many Gandhis and Jawaharlal, Churchills came and gone. Nobody could improve the situation of the world. Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, so many came, and the world is going on in the same way, pralayāntām upāśritāḥ . So why they do not make factory here? There are so many deserts and barren land, rocky land. From airplane you can see. In Canada there are hundreds and thousands of lakes. From the plane we could see it. So why they do not make development of this land if they are scientist? Thousands of miles desert and rocky land, unutilized. Australia, that is not bad land—very nice land—but no work there. Thousands and thousands. I think one percent or two percent of Australia land has been utilized. So why they do not utilize these lands? What benefit they will derive by going? Karandhara: They are also eager to gain more, but they are not even using what they have. They just want to get more and more and more. *Prabhupāda: Piśācī pāile yena mati*-cchanna (Prema-vivarta). Pramatta . They are being called pramatta : intensely mad. Devotee: Yes. Intelligence—they have no . . . their intelligence is stolen by sense gratification. *Prabhupāda: Intensely mad. Nunam pramatta. Pramatta , this very word is used. Instead of utilizing the human form of life intelligently for real purpose, simply wasting. Bharam udvahato vimūḍhān ( SB 7.9.43). These words are used. Unnecessary they have created some . . . what is called? Bharam . Bharam means falsehood. What is the exact English word, bharam ? To make a show which has no utility. That is called bharam . When that first aereonautic, aeronaut from Russia, one boy, went and traveled around the world for one hour twenty*-five minutes . . . Russia it was? Karandhara: I think the United States was first to do that. Russia had the first sputnik, but the United States had the first spaceman. *Prabhupāda: So that man who went, he was received by India, and Jawaharlal Nehru received him. Now nobody talks about him. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. In the Bhagavata the exact wordings are so nice. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). The happiness derived out of it is māyā , illusion. It has no substance. *But for that purpose they have made so much gorgeous arrangement. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Bhagavata is the only literature in the world meant for very highly intelligent class of men. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ (SB 1.1.2). Highly intellectual persons will understand Bhāgavatam very nicely. Try our best. Devotee: So at least these highly intelligent men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, ah, they're not in the government. These men are not in the government. Actually they are in the education. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: The professors and advanced students. Prabhupāda: But at the present moment the professors also addicted with these four prohibited. They are lusty, drunkard, gambler. The priests also. All servants of māyā . Devotee: We still have nowhere to go except the young people to make devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Less vitiated, less contaminated. Actually that is happening. Our . . . somebody asked me in Paris a question, "Why younger generations are attracted?" And I immediately, "Because they are not so polluted." The older generation, they're polluted, it will take time for forgetting what they have done. The younger generation, they are receptive and they are not so much polluted. They are not old fools.Actually that is the fact. So old generation, they are sophisticated. By nature younger generation they are inquisitive and receptive, by nature. Therefore from the very beginning if they are given good guidance, their life is successful. That is the Vedic civilization. Just like that small boy. You ask him to offer obeisance, he does. Doesn't matter what will happen in his future life. But this life he is so innocent, you could train him. Just like your son: the training from the very beginning, just like we have been trained by our parents—and that makes value. So our New Vrindavan was meant for training small children, and that is not being done. Then? What is the use of it? What for it is now being used? Devotee (3): Well, the money . . . all the money has been used for acquiring land. Now there is one building that they are beginning. You have seen a plan. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (3): That is the first modern building to be constructed. Already they have begun. They have bulldozed the land. They haven't built the house, but they have bulldozed the land; they've leveled the land. Prabhupāda: Which portion? Devotee (3): Hmm? Prabhupāda: Which portion of the land? Devotee (3): Oh, you know . . . you remember where the school, that little white schoolhouse was, by the road? At the beginning of the road. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Schoolhouse it is known. Devotee (3): Yes. Not far from there, up higher, where some trees are. I would say maybe a hundred yards back down the road, the macadam road. Off the road, in the trees. Prabhupāda: That is our land now? Devotee (3): Yes. It is very nice. We have all the hay we need now. So many hay fields. Before we were purchasing, expensive. But now there is enough hay for all the cows. So Hayagrīva prabhu's plan is to continue the construction gradually. And with this building, if this building is done properly, there will be a place for the children. Devotee (2): That will be the place? Devotee (3): At least there's room. The children don't have to live in that building necessarily, but there has to be some bathing facilities. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (3): The bathing facilities would be in that building. Prabhupāda: So there is water supply? Devotee (3): I don't know the details. Prabhupāda: Oh. In the śāstra it is said that when there are many hills, it attracts lightning. Is it a fact? Devotee (3): I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Karandhara: They have lightning rods on all the houses. Prabhupāda: Ha? Karandhara: They have lightning rods on their houses. Prabhupāda: Lightning? Karandhara: Lightning rods. You put them on the house, so if the lightning comes it will strike the rod and will be grounded into the ground. Prabhupāda: The rocks are broken. You have seen sometimes rocks are broken? Huh? So that is due to lightning. Just like we sometimes break the rocks by dynamite, nature's way, as soon as rocks are out from the sea, by nature's way they are broken by the lightning, and then gradually level land comes. So the thunderbolt generally falls on the hills. Is it a fact? Huh? That is stated in some ślokas in the . . . example is given. Ah. When Varāhadeva killed that Hiraṇyākṣa, this example was there. Just like the lightning thunderbolt shatters the hills, immediately He broke the big giant into pieces. This example. Therefore the big hilly tract of land attracts thunderbolts. Then that tract of land must be inviting some thunderbolt? Because West Virginia is full of hills only, is it not? That is very good for living condition? Devotee: I haven't heard of a lot of lightning striking, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hayagrāva prabhu has never mentioned a lot of lightning. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Hayagrāva prabhu has never mentioned that there has been a lot of lightning striking. I haven't heard. There's also an alternative to temporary. Bhagavān dāsa prabhu has gotten this house, additional to the temple in Detroit. It's the . . . a big carriage house with facilities. He has suggested . . . Prabhupāda: Carriage? Devotee: Carriage house. Like a garage, behind the other house. This has rooms in it, everything—full house, with facilities. Perhaps the children could go there and attend school. That's a possibility we discussed. To keep them together. Prabhupāda: All airplanes, they are made by Boeing company? Karandhara: No. There is two big ones: Boeing and Douglas. Prabhupāda: Douglas? Karandhara: Douglas. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Karandhara: It's in Long Beach, Lakewood. Not far from here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Throughout the whole world they are manufacturing? Karandhara: Yes. Douglas is very big also. Not as big as Boeing, but very big. Prabhupāda: Because all airplanes I see: Boeing. So there are so many companies they are taking supply from Boeing. Karandhara: Boeing is the biggest. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is Seattle? Karandhara: Seattle . . . Boeing has factories all over. Prabhupāda: Oh. Karandhara: Seattle, Los Angeles, all over the United States. Prabhupāda: In Europe they are also being supplied? No. France they have got some factories. Karandhara: Yes. They supply all over the world. Prabhupāda: Huh? Karandhara: Boeing supplies all over the world. In fact in Seattle . . . Air India bought two of those great big ones in Seattle. We were going to get some free rides there, but Air India, they decided not to give them to us. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Karandhara: Air India, they bought two great big 747 jets, like the one you went to Hawaii in when you left here. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Karandhara: They bought two big ones, and they were bringing them to India. So we inquired from them if we could have some free passages to India. Prabhupāda: Ha. Karandhara: So at first they said we could, but then they changed their mind and said we couldn't. The man in Seattle, the Air India man, said we could. The Air India man in New York said no, he wouldn't let them do it. So it's too late. They have already gone to India. Prabhupāda: They will go empty, India? Karandhara: No. They sold seats to diplomats and people, other people, at a discount rate. They sold seats. (end) Arrival -- July 16, 1971, Detroit Prabhupāda: It has become very satisfactory that so many devotees, boys and girls, are taking part in this great movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is very important movement, because it is correcting the human civilization. There is a great defect in the modern civilization, that people are accepting this body as self, and based on this mistake in the foundation, everything is going wrong. The basic principle of civilization—accepting this body as the soul—is the beginning of all problems. The great philosophers, scientist, theologist and thoughtful men, they do not know what is the defect. Recently I was in Moscow. I had a nice talk with a big professor of Indology, Professor Kotovsky. So he was speaking that, "Swāmījī, after this finishing, annihilation of this body, everything is finished." So I was astonished that a learned professor who is posing himself on a very responsible post, he has no idea about the soul and the body, how they are different, how the soul migrating from one body to another. And everyone is accepting this body as the self and, "There is no life after death, therefore make the best use of this bad bargain and enjoy sense gratification as far as possible." But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is checking this wrong progress of human civilization. Our first proposition is that, "You are not this body, you are spirit soul. Some way or other, you are in contact with this material world, and you have got this material body, and under illusion, you are accepting something which you are not." So basic principle of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct the wrong foundation of the human civilization. *In the Bhagavad*-gītā this is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. When Arjuna was identifying himself with this body and bodily relationship, Kṛṣṇa first of all corrected that "You are not this body." So if we do not understand these first steps of spiritual knowledge, then where is the question of making further progress? Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13). This is the verdict of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . *Yasya ātma*-buddhiḥ : one who has accepted as self kuṇape tri-dhātuke , this bag of bones and flesh and blood . . . this body is made of . . . according to Vedic medicine or Vedic anatomy, it is made of three elements—mucus, bile and air. Tri-dhātuke . Apart from that medical science, this body, one who accepts this body as self as sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu , and persons in relationship with this body as kinsmen, own men, bhauma ijya-dhīḥ , and the land where we take our birth as worshipable, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), he is accepted as go-kharaḥ . Go means cow, and khara means ass. That means animals. The animal, they accept this, that "I am this body." But human form of life, which is so advanced in knowledge . . . Airport speaker: Ladies and gentlemen, I have to ask you to clear the boarding area so we can start our flight. Prabhupāda: If . . . they are speaking us? They are speaking about ourself? We shall stop? All right. Then we shall go? Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hare Kṛṣṇa! (end) Conversation -- July 18, 1971, Detroit Mohsin Hassan: . . . quite, came four weeks ago, and I received the response from you. I think I had the letter with me, and you indicated that you would like to meet me and give me some hint, a suggestion for my thesis writing. So here I am first to introduce myself to you and hope to learn some more about the objective of the movement. And maybe I could put in the thesis, and to be . . . Prabhupāda: We require help from personalities like you, because it is very important movement, checking a great mistake in the modern civilization. *The (break) modern civilization is very risky. Risky in this sense: that the human form of life is an opportunity for self*-realization, but our leaders, they are miseducating that, "You are this body." A basic mistake. But I am not this body, but just like you are sitting there, if I take account of your shirt and coat only, not you as a person, then there is a great mistake. *Similarly, the modern civilization, education, everything is based on this bodily concept of life. But actually we are not body. Body is my shirt and coat. Mind, intelligence and ego, that is the shirt, finer dress. And this five*-element body—earth, water, air, fire, ether—this is gross. Just like shirt and coat. Similarly, we are dressed, the spirit soul. The spirit soul is also a measure, one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very important in this sense, that they are trying to bring people to the constitutional position. A living entity is transmigrating from one body to another, as we are in our present body also, we are transmigrating. In my childhood I had a small body. That body is no longer existing, but I am existing. So there is no reason to believe that when I give up this body I'll not exist. No. I shall exist, but in another body. So people are not interested to make research work how the soul is working and so on. This is ignorance. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to revive the pure consciousness of the human society so that he can know himself and act accordingly. Then his life is successful. Mohsin Hassan: May I ask you, my master, how did this movement formed, came to the Western world? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . your question is how this movement . . . Mohsin Hassan: Yes, how this movement was formed when you came here. You are the father of this movement. How this idea was created in the beginning? Because everybody asks me this question, how this movement . . .? *Prabhupāda: The movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very firm . . . the other room . . . Bhagavad*-gītā was there, so Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was there. India, it was existing. Unfortunately, some of the less intelligent svāmīs and philosophers, they could not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, and they misinterpreted the Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore people could not understand. In spite of reading Bhagavad-gītā all the world over, they were not aware what is Kṛṣṇa, although Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa understanding. You have read Bhagavad-gītā ? Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes, all of it. From beginning to end. *Prabhupāda: So it is the book to understand Kṛṣṇa, but these people, unscrupulous people, even great scholars, they tried to explain something on the . . . taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad*-gītā . Instead of understanding Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to present something of their concoction through the Bhagavad-gītā . So this movement was already there since five thousand years. But these, I may say, the foolish scholars, they suppressed it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it. Five hundred years ago he revived it. So from Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time we are trying to revive this movement in different way. Different way. *And about two hundred years ago, hundred and fifty years ago, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura revived it, and then about fifty years ago, my Guru Mahārāja, he revived it, and he also ordered me that, "You go and preach this philosophy to the Western world." So under his order I came, and I presented Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , as you have read. Mohsin Hassan: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So the acceptance has been very marvelous, because the things are presented in pure form, so it has acted very nice. Otherwise, it is not a movement that I have manufactured something. No. The movement was already there. I am simply presenting as it is. That is my service. That's all. Mohsin Hassan: My master, what's your opinion on the Ramakrishna Mission? There are Ramakrishna Mission in Chicago. *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission, if I say it frankly, they distorted the Bhagavad*-gītā to the greatest extent. Yes. Because they presented somebody as Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, as God. Ramakrishna said that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma," and they accepted it. But one thing is, anybody can say that, "I am the same Rāma, I am the same Kṛṣṇa." First of all we have to see the proof. So many . . . there are many ways of . . . to understand. So Ramakrishna Mission is pushing on this, I mean to say, wrong idea. *But another thing is that supposing this Ramakrishna is the same Kṛṣṇa, then the philosophy is different. Ramakrishna's philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā's philosophy is different, because Ramakrishna says that you can accept any method; *every method is all right. But Kṛṣṇa says only unto Him, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam ( BG 18.66). "Give up everything. Simply surrender unto Me." Now Kṛṣṇa says one: "Simply surrender unto Me," and Ramakrishna says that you can accept any way. So which one we shall accept? Kṛṣṇa's or Ramakrishna's? What is your opinion? If something is spoken by Kṛṣṇa and something is spoken by Ramakrishna, so which one we shall prefer to accept? Mohsin Hassan: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's the answer. Therefore Ramakrishna Mission is misguiding. Mohsin Hassan: There is another question many people like to know about. They visit the temples in Chicago and many temples all over the United States. They are fascinated in the ritual things, the ara . . . during the offering food to the Deities, and especially this initiation service. I would like to record the meaning of these ritual things, because it's very important to explain in great detail about it. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is, this is essential for advancing in spiritual consciousness. Just like kindergarten system, the children are given some wooden, I mean, some plans to form A, B and C like that . . . (indistinct) . . . so this not like . . . exactly like the . . . kindergarten . . . system. This system is introduced by great ācāryas , authorities. So we have to follow. In the beginning we have no love for Kṛṣṇa, so this process will help how to invoke his love for Kṛṣṇa. This is standard process. Mohsin Hassan: This is the basic philosophy of the ritual. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are introduced by great ācāryas . You'll find, if you go in India, there are many thousands of temples, the same things are being followed from, shall we say, thousands and thousands of years—not only since the time of Kṛṣṇa; *before the time of Kṛṣṇa. This is called arcana*-vidhi , the regulative principle for worshiping the Lord. Therefore . . . so they have to be . . . Pañca . . . this is called Pañcarātrika-vidhi , the regulative principle on the authority of Nārada Pañcarātra . So they must be followed. Otherwise one cannot be purified. This is purificatory process. Mohsin Hassan: Would you please mention something about the meaning of the ritual of the initiation. They put their hand in the oil and the burning of the fire, for example. Prabhupāda: They are not putting their hand on the oil. It is called yajña , offering ghee to the fire. This is Vedic. This is Vedic rituals, to offer clarified butter and grains in the fire. Fire is supposed to be the mouth of God. So we are offering eatables to the Supreme Person, rūpa . Mohsin Hassan: What is the goal of this movement for the future? Is there any program set for the future? Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine movement, it will make progress, provided it is presented in pure form. It was not presented before me in pure form, at least in the Western countries. Therefore people could not take it, nor they could understand it. Now it is being placed in pure form in the right way of paramparā system, as the ācāryas introduced, and actually it is happening. It is . . . they are taking. Wherever they are going, people are very much anxious to take this movement, as if they are waiting. Anywhere we go, even we have sent men to . . . Jerusalem. (aside) What town? . . . (indistinct) Devotee: In Russia? Prabhupāda: Yes. So this method is very effective, and people are accepting, any part of the world, without any discrimination. Here mostly you see our students are from the Christian group, the Jewish group, there are many students from Muhammadan group, from Parsi group. Everyone is taking. Mohsin Hassan: Now, this movement must have structure. Will you please tell us about the structure of the movement from the hierarchy on the top, and all the way down. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is . . . this movement is started from Kṛṣṇa. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, from Kṛṣṇa, Nārada. From Nārada, Vyāsadeva. From Vyāsadeva to Madhvācārya, from Madhvācārya to Īsvara Puri, Mādhavendra Puri, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then His disciples, the six Goswāmīs, then Kṛṣṇa dāsa Kavirāja, then Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa. So we are taking account very rigidly from Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and I am the tenth generation from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mohsin Hassan: Yeah, the tenth. After you, is it . . . any decision has been made who will take over? Prabhupāda: Yes. All of them will take. These students who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. Mohsin Hassan: How many svāmīs do you initiated, American? I'm speaking just on the American . . . Prabhupāda: About ten. Mohsin Hassan: You have ten svāmīs . And outside of svāmīs , what's the lower . . . Prabhupāda: Now, they're competent. They can . . . not only the svāmīs , even the gṛhasthas , they are called dāsa adhikārī , and brahmacārīs , everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciple. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread. Become, to whom, I mean, recruit more members in this. They do, but they are being trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of my disciples, he is acting as priest. Instead of myself; he is acting. So some of my students, they are acting as priest, some of them are svāmīs . So they are competent to make disciples. Mohsin Hassan: Do you have any hope in the future that you . . . your movement will involve printing a lot of books, making . . . building schools for your children, for . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got already many books. You have not seen? Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. I have almost all of your printed, but I'm trying to prepare . . . Ramakrishna, they have big library and bookstore, and this is where goes most of their income. I was wondering . . . and many . . . they have so many scholars for this movement because they are for a variety of religions. And one argument I always receive from some teacher, they say this movement insists on the chanting, and they are not trying to open all the other doors for other religion. And I have no answer to them. Prabhupāda: What is that? Mohsin Hassan: They tell me that . . . the Ramakrishna Mission, they offer all kinds variety of books about every religion. Prabhupāda: We have got varieties of books. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got at least twelve books, four hundred pages, different ways we are presenting. But our main aim is, end is, Kṛṣṇa, to understand Kṛṣṇa through different philosophical thoughts. We have presented, I think. You have not . . .? You say you say you have seen all these books. Mohsin Hassan: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We have got Kṛṣṇa , Teachings of Lord Caitanya , Nectar of Devotion , Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Easy Journey to Other Planets , Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is the Topmost Yoga System . In this way we have presented so many. Mohsin Hassan: How about the meaning of the chanting. You are . . . you insist on chanting. *Prabhupāda: Chanting is to make the process very easy. Because in this age people are unfortunate, short*-living, and they are attracted in false things, they are very slow, they do not take it very seriously. Therefore chanting is a common platform. Anyone can chant. Anyone, even the child can chant, the old man can chant, the fool can chant, the intelligent can chant, the rich can chant, the poor can chant. So the chanting is the common, therefore it is becoming successful. And chanting means, Kṛṣṇa being absolute, Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Absolute means there is no duality. As in this dual world there is difference between the name and the substance, in the absolute world there is no difference between the name and the substance. Both of them are the same. So therefore chanting of Kṛṣṇa name means associating with Kṛṣṇa directly. And because we are associating with Kṛṣṇa directly, they're quickly becoming purified. Just like if you touch a metal rod with the fire, it becomes warm, and then it acquires the quality of the fire. The metal rod, you can touch anywhere, it will burn, although it is metal rod. But because it acquired the quality of the fire, it can burn—it can act as fire. Similarly, if we constantly associate with Kṛṣṇa, then we acquire the spiritual quality. Then we can act as spiritual very quickly. This is the point. Mohsin Hassan: My master, many people are interested to know something about you, and I found just not enough to know about you, and I could write volumes about your life. Could you expand about your life? Prabhupāda: Well, a sannyāsī should not be inquired about his life. What he's acting, that's all. But I was formerly gṛhastha , householder, that's all. My life is described in short in the *Īśopaniṣad* , so you can see it from there. Mohsin Hassan: Could you recall the beginning of your first trip to USA and how you spread the message? I was told that you came here with six dollars, and then . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because our government, India government, would not allow to take money to go outside. So somehow or other I got the P*-form sanction, and one big shipping company, they allowed me free passage. So I came here with great difficulty. Of course I was very comfortably situated on the sea, but still, because I am not accustomed, I got sea-sickness. So the travel was very miserable. Still I came. *Then for one year, I was going here and there, there was no fixed*-up position, and then in 19 . . . I came here in 1965, September, then 1966, July, I incorporated the Society and started my preaching in a storefront, and . . . Second Avenue. *And then gradually the students came and it developed, one branch after another. Now we have got sixty branches, and our expenditure is very heavy. According to Indian calculation it is about 700,000's of rupees. We are paying heavy rent. We have got in each center not less than twenty*-five devotees, up to hundred, hundred and fifty. So it is going on by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Mohsin Hassan: Now what do you expect from your disciple, basic thing? Prabhupāda: They will also preach, just as I am preaching. Mohsin Hassan: I see. Prabhupāda: They'll preach the same thing. As I am preaching according to my spiritual master's instruction, similarly they will preach according to my instruction. Mohsin Hassan: What if someone deviated from your teaching? Prabhupāda: There is no loss. This was . . . I was explaining. Because this, it is spiritual science. Anything spiritual, that is eternal. It is never, I mean to say, lost, never destroyed. So whatever they have learned, that is basic for further learning. Suppose they cannot finish the total process, program, then they will get a chance, another chance to begin in the human form. So practically there is no loss. As ordinary beings, whatever they are creating in this life, after giving up this body everything is lost. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even it is not completed, whatever they have learned, that will go with them, because it is spiritual; it will not be destroyed. *But they're being trained up to finish the course and program within this life, not to wait for the next life. That is our goal. They have got the regulative principles that, "You must follow this, that no illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling, and chanting in a prescribed method Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , taking only Kṛṣṇa prasādam , and be twenty-four-hours . . ." *You'll find, whenever you'll come to our temple, you'll find they're busy with something. Similarly, we are simply busy with Kṛṣṇa business. We try to remember Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. That is our method. *So this method of religious prescription I think you'll not find. At least in the Western world you won't find. Twenty*-four hours they're engaged. Twenty-four hours. Mohsin Hassan: Serving the Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: May I ask you about, for example, we have Bahulāśva. He's married, he has two children, twins. Now, how is the future as you foresee it, from now until his . . . *Prabhupāda: Our everyone's future is Kṛṣṇa. You believe in Kṛṣṇa, and nobody of our group has got any need, because we believe in Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that, "Those who are engaged in my service, I personally attend to their needs," yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). *Perhaps you know this. Those who are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, Kṛṣṇa is supplying the necessities of everyone, because Kṛṣṇa is God. So God is supplying the necessities of everyone. That is one thing. But He takes special interest for those who are devotees, pure devotees. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "I am equal to everyone. Nobody is My enemy, nobody is My friend. But anyone who is engaged in My service with love and devotion, I am especially attached to them." So Kṛṣṇa is feeding even cats and dogs, and why He shall not feed us, we are engaged in His service? Why? It is simply a question of understanding. One should know that Kṛṣṇa is feeding the elephant, Kṛṣṇa is feeding the ant. So there are 8,400,000 species of living entities. So if one who has completely forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is feeding them, then why not we? We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa. So it is a question of confidence and surrender. But actually we have no problem. So far our children are going, these boys, they are taking prasādam , we are taking prasādam , we are traveling all over the world, spending, as I told you, about 700,000's of rupees per month, but we have no source of income fixed. We have no business. Nobody goes to the factory, nobody goes to work, but still we are maintaining our establishment. Mohsin Hassan: And this is a . . . simply a real miracle. Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's getting late. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: It's getting late, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So I am . . . (indistinct) Mohsin Hassan: Will you accept a comment about, final thing, what do you suggest for me to put my energy on, and present beautiful picture, nicely . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so you try to understand the whole philosophy nicely, then you'll paint the picture all right. Unless you understand very nicely . . . so not only one sitting. You have to question, and I shall answer. You have to learn this philosophy. But one thing is that unless one is submissive to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he follows the Vaiṣṇava principles, it is a little difficult to understand. Mohsin Hassan: I thank you very much for this wonderful interview. I hope I'll give you a copy of what you said as soon as I type it down, and I shall keep in contact with you in the future. Prabhupāda: You are welcome Mohsin Hassan: There are many, many teacher of DePaul University—I am of DePaul University—interested to meet you, and this just to invite you in the future for some lecture. Prabhupāda: So you try to understand our philosophy from any angle of vision and we shall be able to answer. There will be no difficulty. Because we are taking our lessons from Kṛṣṇa. So there is no difficulty to answer any opposite element. Mohsin Hassan: Thank you again. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: . . . First Canto Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Third, Fourth, Fifth. These five big, big books, not less than thousand pages each, and Bhagavad-gītā As It Is , eleven hundred pages. So . . . and each book will cost us twenty thousand, twenty-five thousand. So any amount of money will come we can engage in printing books. Mohsin Hassan: Yeah. It seems to me this is the biggest problem, the cost of operations. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Kṛṣṇa is giving. You have seen our publication? Mohsin Hassan: No. I have seen the books. I have most of them. Prabhupāda: Small Bhāgavata , chapterwise it is publishing. It is very scholarly. Bring some chapters of *Bhāgavatam* . Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda, he has almost all of them. Prabhupāda: You have got the chapterwise *Bhāgavatam* ? *Devotee: Those little tiny ones, Śrīla Prabhupāda? The soft*-covered ones? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Devotee: Like The Lord in the Heart ? He has them. Prabhupāda: He has got. There you will see how it is scholarly written. Mohsin Hassan: Oh, yes. Wonderful. *Prabhupāda: So we are publishing all our books in a scholarly way so that professors, teachers, philosophers, they . . . they can read it. And it is very easily done. Word*-to-word, Sanskrit word, English, and diacritic marks. So we are working very hard. So if it is introduced among the scholarly sections, professors, teachers, it will be very beneficial to the human society. Mohsin Hassan: Do you do your printing in Japan and America? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I am . . . whenever I travel, I travel all over, around the world. Mohsin Hassan: I want to ask . . . just a few more minutes. You went to Russia. What's your impression? Prabhupāda: Yes, Russia is the same people. They are anxious to receive this movement. Very much anxious. Mohsin Hassan: And are you intent to . . . (indistinct) . . . over there? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: I see. Prabhupāda: But their government is very strict. Government is very strict. So unless we get permission from the government . . . because they have no culture in literature. They're simply reading this Lenin book. So one professor, a Dr. Kotovsky, he told me that Indian *Rāmāyaṇa* , Tulsi dasa's *Rāmāyaṇa* —that's not very good philosophy—still, it was translated into Russian language, and within a week, all the books are sold. Just see. So they are hankering after this cultural book. Unfortunately, we have no means now; otherwise there is immense, good field for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Russia. Mohsin Hassan: You are the founder of this movement. You are the founder. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mohsin Hassan: Is it the same you found in all over the world, everybody speak the language, English*-speaking language, you went and you did the same thing—you went up there, chant, and with the miracle of Lord Kṛṣṇa you received your devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohsin Hassan: . . . and disciple? Prabhupāda: The same process. We follow the same process, anywhere. It doesn't matter whether it is America or Russia or Europe. It doesn't matter. Japan. The same process. Mohsin Hassan: So you are intent to serve the Lord Kṛṣṇa in the same method for ever. Prabhupāda: Yes, because I am ordered by my spiritual master in that way. So I am trying my best. That's all. Mohsin Hassan: How old are you? Prabhupāda: I? Mohsin Hassan: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I am now seventy*-six. *Mohsin Hassan: Seventy*-six. Do you have any children, family? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mohsin Hassan: How many? *Prabhupāda: I have got great*-grandchildren. Mohsin Hassan: You have two sons? Prabhupāda: I have two sons. I have three sons . . . two sons, two daughters. Mohsin Hassan: They were, I was told, associated with Gandhi. What's your relation with Mahatma Gandhi? Prabhupāda: Gandhi . . . in my young age I was Nationalist, so I followed Gandhi. I was interested. Later on, when I met my spiritual master, I became disinterested with this temporary, ephemeral things, you see. So this is permanent. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is permanent. It is very long subject matter. We are simply dreaming. All these activities are just like at night you dream, but they are all false. Whatever you dream at night, they're not facts, they're false. Similarly, these are also daydream, these activities. Daydream. They're also false. The only thing what we can actually take benefit out of it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's a fact. It will take some time . . . (break) (end) Conversation with High Commissioner for United Kingdom -- August 4, 1971, London *Devotee: (introducing recording) Discussion between His Divine Grace and Apa Pante, A*-P-A-P-A-N-T-E, High Commissioner for United Kingdom, 4th August, 1971, noon. The recording is not very clear, from being copied from a cassette tape recorder. Please make it out as best as possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: . . . in India by nature they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means they have been . . . (Apa Pante laughs) . . . trained to forget Kṛṣṇa. Like that. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . so it is artificial? Prabhupāda: That is . . . Apa Pante: Hmm. That's normal . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I think you understand some Bengali. There is a verse in Caitanya*-caritamṛta , Apa Pante: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is not an artificial imposition. So everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Apa Pante: Sva*-bhāva. *Prabhupāda: Sva*-bhāva. *Apa Pante: Sva*-bhāva. . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Sva-bhāva . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: Śivo 'ham , śivo 'ham. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But the process recommended in this age by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: So harer nāma —Hare means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa—that simply chanting harer nāma one can be entirely Kṛṣṇa conscious. And actually it is happening. These European and American boys and girls, especially the young men, four years ago they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, but now they are so serious . . . Apa Pante: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have got many Muhammadans, Parsis, yogīs , everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . but nitya siddha kṛṣṇa. Nitya siddha . That means eternally. Apa Pante: Yes, eternally. That is very nice . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so far my belief is that . . . why my belief? It is the belief of the authority, Lord Caitanya. He said that this movement will spread, and people will be happy. So it is a great movement. Every thoughtful man, scientist, philosopher and follower should try to understand. It is authorized, based on Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). Apa Pante: Umalaṁ ? *Prabhupāda: Amalaṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . amalaṁ . Amalaṁ means karma jñāna*-miśra . Amalaṁ means "without any . . ." Apa Pante: Impurities. Prabhupāda: Yes. *So I have already established fifty branches. Now in Calcutta, Bombay also we have got. Now recently we have got a big program to start an institution, kṛṣṇa*-bhakti , on the first five forms Lord Caitanya. So I have already purchased land, but we have to purchase more land. Now . . . Apa Pante: Is it in Bengal? Prabhupāda: It is in Bengal. So my only . . . (indistinct) . . . is that Śrīmatī Indira Gandhi, I was hoping if she can authorize something. We don't want any monetary help from anyone; simply by supporting. So kindly help me, for that purpose. Apa Pante: (laughs) How right you are. Prabhupāda: Not right, but you have to do what is your heart. I want to make this very, very . . . (indistinct) . . . I do not know whether it is . . . (indistinct) . . . I want to . . . (indistinct) . . . but that is my ambition. So last time when I saw, you promised that you would help me with this kind of principle. Apa Pante: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I don’t want anything. Another thing, I see you have got my first book, Kṛṣṇa . Apa Pante: Yes. Is this the second part? Prabhupāda: Yes. Apa Pante: Oh! Beautifully done. Prabhupāda: No, all our literature is coming out very successful. Apa Pante: This is all your literature? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: I see. (laughs) Indeed I'm not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . you order and bless the program . . . we are blessed if you order the program. Back to Godhead . Apa Pante: (laughs) It would be much better to have the God order. Prabhupāda: If you hold up Back to Godhead . . . people are trying to forget God. Without God. Kingdom of God without God. Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So I want to have in India a nice center so that foreign students will go. That . . . what you call it? They were regular students, college for students from America who travel . . . (indistinct) . . . so I want to keep at least one hundred students here. For that purpose also we want some facilities. Because as soon as foreigners go, especially these boys . . . I am very much anxious to help them . . . (indistinct) . . . I do not know why. *Maybe that if we grow in number in India they might be thinking that, "They are also something . . . (indistinct) . . . worldwide movement. This culture is being accepted, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this room you see they look forward to India's spiritual culture. And this is real. Before that, whatever spiritual culture there was in the foreign countries . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have now taken in their own way, that . . . (indistinct) . . . following: evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2) . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . that we are giving fact . . . (indistinct) . . . so somehow or other. Last time I suggested . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: When will you go to India? Prabhupāda: After I've been to festival. I want the festival, then go. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . in India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . when Mrs. Gandhi went to Bengal . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That you will . . . (indistinct) . . . know better. According to our program . . . (indistinct) . . . not that I shall . . . Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. We have purchased the land, now we must . . . (indistinct) . . . lay down the foundations, and then our . . . (indistinct) . . . so I should not completely depend on her . . . (indistinct) . . . but as soon as I know that it will be reserved . . . (indistinct) . . . then I will go there and arrange. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . the organization write a letter . . . Prabhupāda: No, that will not be . . . if you kindly say yes to this proposal, then I shall arrange. Apa Pante: Yes, but . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not in my sphere of duties. Prabhupāda: I don't ask you officially to execute it; I simply request you that you also request on behalf of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. She knows us. She knows us. But if you request her, then she'll . . . she knows about our activities. Some of our boys in Delhi met her when she . . . (indistinct) . . . and she promised also that when I go to Bengal . . . now I want to fix up, and then I go and arrange . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: I would like to. I don't know when I may get an answer, but after I get the answer I will let you know. Are you happy? Prabhupāda: Then I shall wait here. Apa Pante: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Yes. The time being. Of course, as far as this movement is concerned . . . (indistinct) . . . we have got the highest . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa has provided. I have no money to pay them . . . (indistinct) . . . for printing these two books here, you know that boy, George Harrison, he paid me nineteen thousand dollars. So somehow or other I am going on. We are always in want, but our wants are being satisfied somehow or other by Kṛṣṇa. To keep oneself in want is one of the . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: Samudvigna Prabhupāda: Ah, samudvigna , yes. So that Kṛṣṇa will help. The reciprocation from God . . . (indistinct) . . . this is one of the items of śaraṇāgati . . . (indistinct) . . . so it will be nice place. After all, I should have been very much glad by the government. This is the culture, Indian culture, I am trying to . . . and people are accepting. The Indian, all Indian the culture of the government, but unfortunately I am not getting any help. That doesn’t matter, but I am requesting you for this important . . . (indistinct) . . . of this . . . (indistinct) . . . Indira Gandhi. Of course, Jawaharlal Nehru, when I was in Allahabad and he was my customer, I was doing business when he was Municipality chairman. He was my customer . . . (indistinct) . . . Indira Gandhi perhaps a small child. So Jawaharlal Nehru was . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave a presentation at that time of my ointment, so he was very much pleased that . . . (indistinct) . . . He, in 1928, I was . . . (indistinct) . . . he was meeting with Congress continuously, I'd go to see. Motilal Nehru was president . . . (indistinct) So in Calcutta I went to Allahabad; *Calcutta from Allahabad . . . (indistinct) . . . committee. I paid only one rupee. (laughs) I told them that . . . (indistinct) . . . I told that. One rupee, you have paid twenty*-five rupees, that's . . . (indistinct) . . . because they were our men, therefore our people . . . (indistinct) . . . it was the custom of the Congress . . . (indistinct) . . . so for this purpose I request you to help us. It is not very difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . but this is my immediate need . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: It is in the hands of God. I will do the writing, but the end result is not in my hands. *Prabhupāda: But I think it is in your hands . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is in God's hands, but . . . (indistinct) . . . part and parcel of God. Adhikāri*-devatā . Demigod. Adhikāri-devatā . So here also one of the adhikāri-devatās . Then another thing, that is also . . . (indistinct) . . . the missionaries in some other country, when the Christian missionaries go, they stay there. They have got their offices for propaganda. Why our missionaries are prohibited? Whenever they go, they are simply reminded, "Now you have to . . . (indistinct) . . ." *What to do? I want to present you 100 foreigners, but if . . . (indistinct) . . . opportunity. And when they . . . (indistinct) . . . Calcutta, Bombay, Allahabad. In Allahabad Kumbha*-melā our camp was the most glorious camp. Many, many big, big officers came . . . (indistinct) . . . Allahabad . . . (indistinct) . . . they have practically become . . . (indistinct) . . . "How the foreigners are so engaged in devotional service?" Actually that is a fact, because they are not professionals—they are actually taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Apa Pante: What is the . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: That visa . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . went from here, and they got a visa for three months and then they extended it six months. So after six months the visa was expired, then I approached the Home Minister at the time, and he said: "Well you must go back." So on a special condition they are extending the stay, and we requested that the people who have come from America, from France, from Europe, they applied the missionary visa from there end and they get it from there. Not that you can extend the missionary visa. We wanted a missionary visa granted from here. Apa Pante: You can do that . . . (indistinct) . . . you can do that. Initially . . . (indistinct) . . . when you are returning there? Devotee: Some are going sometime this month, but it is not all the time. But two people go this month, two people will go next month . . . *Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . British passport*-holders they have . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your opinion of that? Prabhupāda: If the application is from here . . . (indistinct) . . . never mind wherefrom they are coming . . . Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . somebody here . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave his opinion like this: Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa*-tanāya (Caitanya-manjusa). Arādhyo . *So this is our philosophy. What to do? . . . (indistinct) . . . so impartially . . . (indistinct) . . . the religion of Kṛṣṇa is vraja*-bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore especially we Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they go to Vṛndāvana. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam . Therefore in particularly from Europe now . . . (indistinct) . . . to Vṛndāvana. You will find that seventy-five percent of the population is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-manjusa). There is no higher method of worshiping than what was . . . (indistinct) . . . by the gopīs, vraja-vadhū . . . (indistinct) . . . śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). *There must be some advice in the scripture to follow these principles. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, śrīmad*-bhāgavataṁ amalaṁ purāṇam. Amalaṁ means without any material contamination. And similarly, devotional service mixed with material purpose, or jñāna . . . jñāna means to merge into the existence of the . . . (indistinct) . . . Jñāna , that is the target of jñāna . And karma , karma means to take benediction from God . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to be very, very big man, in general, in this material world. That is karma . *Real bhakti . . . anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna*-karmi vibhājitam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (Brs 1.1.11). Simply serve Kṛṣṇa favorably . . . (indistinct) . . . just like Arjuna did. This is the . . . (indistinct) . . . nephews, grandfather. He did not like, but when he saw that Kṛṣṇa wants it, then ānukūla , favorably. If Kṛṣṇa wants it, then he wants it. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. So our this propaganda is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam : what Kṛṣṇa wants, we are trying to make propaganda . . . (indistinct) . . . Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam . Kṛṣṇa says: (claps hands) *(indistinct) . . . if you simply concentrate on Kṛṣṇa . . . of course, in our Hindu system there are so many other things recommended, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā , sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ : a clear fact, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme . . . (indistinct) . . . in the Bhāgavatam it is said by Devahūti, who instructs Kapiladeva, bhāgavata bāṇam. Bhāgavata bāṇam. Bāṇam means arrow, the arrow which has got established. So if this process is controlled by Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān . . . bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28) . . . Other methods, they may lead to the Absolute, but with vague ideas. Absolute means ānukūl , in three phases: Brahma, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11): the Absolute Truth is understood in three ways. You can see that the jñānīs , Parabrahma. Not Parabrahman, Brahma, Brahma effulgence. But for the yogīs , Paramātmā, antardhyāna , and the bhaktas , the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *So this process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is bhagavat*-bhakti . It started with directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and if this arrow goes direct to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then it goes through the impersonal Brahma effulgence and localized aspects of Paramātmā. That is automatically understood. *So this movement is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Bhakti*-yoga , first class. And similarly in the Nārada-pañcarātra it says: Hṛṣī : by the senses. If all the senses are always engaged for the sense gratification of the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa, Kṛṣṇa, the master of the senses, then things are engaged in pure devotion. Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually, our senses, they are not our senses . . . (indistinct) . . . so these hands and legs are belonging to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . so when these senses are engaged in the service of the proprietor of the senses, that is called bhakti . You cannot engage . . . just like your senses are part and parcel of the human body if they are engaged in the service of the body. You cannot apply your senses for any other . . . that makes you real, a part and parcel. Apa Pante: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, in the materialistic way of life, people are conscious to use their senses for a particular designation, "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." So here he has accepted a particular type of designation. He is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Indian, nor American. He is brahmacārī , real brahmacārī : ahaṁ brahmāsmi . Brahma—part and parcel of the Parabrahma. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-loke (BG 15.7). That realization is required. Unless that realization is there, then, I mean, then your human life is . . . (indistinct) . . . athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.1): one should be inquisitive to know what is the science of Brahma. That is the real function of human life. So, so long we are not engaged in our real function, then it is śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone has got some particular duty. He may perform very nicely his particular designated duty, but if he does not have any Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then śrama eva hi kevalam . So people should, in the midst of his variegated duties . . . in another place it is said: *Hari*-toṣaṇam . That was the injunction for everyone. The brāhmin , he is engaged in his own duties, but the aim is how to satisfy the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. The kṣatriya is engaged in his duties . . . (indistinct) . . . but aim is how to satisfy the Surpreme Person. Therefore they were called . . . the kṣatriyas were called rājarṣis . Rājarṣi . Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ . Kṛṣṇa does not say imaṁ brāhmaṇa viduḥ . The brāhmins are the . . . (indistinct) . . . the rājarṣis . . . (indistinct) . . . public figure free from the political head, and they were rṣis . All the kings were rṣis , rājarṣi . So Kṛṣṇa says that: Not ordinary man. Because he is the king, he is the right person. If you understand this nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . this is how we follow. *So this is the ideal of our Vedic culture. Now the time has come that people are discussing . . . (indistinct) . . . Vedic literature, based on Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . for India's glory. So actually let us cooperate. There is no personal . . . (indistinct) . . . Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau . One of the Gosvāmīs, he has been described as lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau : Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . you are a very nice ambassador. Very nice. Such an honor . . . (indistinct) Apa Pante: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: (to tape) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1971, London Mr. Arnold: . . . takes the name of the nearest town. Prabhupāda: So where is that town, eh? Mr. Arnold: Near the island of Zetland. Devotees: In the Orkneys. Prabhupāda: Zetland. Devotees: In the Orkneys. Prabhupāda: But, he was, he was known as Lord Ronaldsay when he was Governor, in Bengal. And later on, when he was seen one of, by one of my Godbrother, he came about thirty years ago, 1935, at that time he was known as Marquis of Zetland. So, the same person, perhaps he was known in India as Lord Zetland, because India, the governors and the viceroys, they're mostly Lords. They are not accustomed to know marquis or this. Mr. Arnold: Marquis is a, is a higher title. Prabhupāda: (aside) Keep it there, I shall . . . keep it. So this Lord Ronaldsay, he was invited by our principal, because he also happened to be Scotsman. So I was at that time a boy. So he's elderly. At least at that time he was our father's age. He's still alive? No. Mr. Arnold: The older Lord Zetland, m'lord? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: No, I don't think so. No. I think he died, and consequently Lord Ronaldsay, and his son, take on the title of Marquis of Zetland. Prabhupāda: He immediately inquired, "How many you have philosophical students?" So our principal replied that this is I.A., I.A. class. So I.A. means Intermediate Art. Devotee: There's a phone call for Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Oh, it's Mr. Ambuja. Prabhupāda: So you can call him to come here. We can talk. So our principal said that this is I.A. class; they haven't got philosophy, but most of them have got logic, preliminary philosophy. So he was interested also. "All right, how many you have taken, logic?" So I was also student (laughing) of logic. In this way we were introduced. But I know, he was very nice gentleman, and fond of Indian philosophy and culture. He studied them. And the Gandhi, during Gandhi's movement, there was a great leader in Calcutta, Sealdah, he was a big lawyer. So government ordered that he should be arrested. So before arresting, Lord Ronaldsay called him at his house, that "It will be very much painful for me to arrest you. If you kindly give up this movement." So he said, "No, you can arrest me. I cannot give up." So later on he was arrested. But before arresting, he called him at his (laughs) . . . A very nice gentleman, but government ordered, what can he do? Another governor, he was Indian. He was the first Indian governor, Lord Sinha. So when he was requested to arrest Gandhi, he immediately resigned: "So you are asking me to arrest? Why not ask some English governor to arrest him?" So he resigned. Mr. Arnold: I think there's still two Indians . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Mr. Arnold: . . . who sit in the House of Lords. Prabhupāda: Hm? Indians? Dhanañjaya: Two Indians, MPs. Mr. Arnold: No, they're titled Lords; they're peers. They sit in the House of Lords. Prabhupāda: Maybe son of Lord Sinha. Mr. Arnold: Maybe. I wouldn't know. Prabhupāda: Because this is hereditary title. Mr. Arnold: Yes, m'lord. Prabhupāda: They deposit some money to the government. Dhanañjaya: Someone was saying that the head of the Liberal . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dhanañjaya: The head of the Liberal department was an Indian. Prabhupāda: He may be domiciled here. There are many Indians domiciled. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because, I don't think anyone with the title "Lord" in India, they can become member of the Parliament. Because . . . because India is not now . . . but he may be Commonwealth. But is it, is there any rule that Commonwealth member can become Parliament member? Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes, there's various people sit in the House of Lords, m'lord, who are not British at all. We've got Australians, New Zealanders. Prabhupāda: But Australia is in, now in, still in touch with England. The Australians, in the stand, the Queen's picture is there. Mr. Arnold: Yes, oh, yes, but even so, the, their . . . Prabhupāda: Canadian, they're in touch. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But India, now, at the present moment, it is simply in name Commonwealth member. Actually, in the matters of governing, there is no . . . Mr. Arnold: No, but these people have received their titles for service to the British Empire in the past. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: And of course it's a hereditary title. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mr. Arnold: So naturally it hands down from father to son. Prabhupāda: Then how you can be elected? Mr. Arnold: You can't be elected to this house. It's quite impossible. Śyāmasundara: That was Mrs. Ambuja, and she said he'll be back about eight o'clock, and either they'll come directly over here, or they'll call first. Prabhupāda: Hm. Śyāmasundara: 6:30 now. Prabhupāda: So we can talk at that time. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, okay. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . Saha. You know him? Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord. Prabhupāda: Heh? Mr. Arnold: I prefer not to speak, m'lord. Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him. Prabhupāda: Oh, it's not . . .? Śyāmasundara: That was pure gold, practically. His, that jewelry is practically pure gold. Prabhupāda: He tested it? Śyāmasundara: They had it tested, yeah. Mr. Arnold: He's off. Śyāmasundara: I don't think he trusts him. Mr. Arnold: He says one thing, and then a few days after he says something else which completely refutes what he said in the first place. Śyāmasundara: That's the problem. We have to really work with trustworthy people. Prabhupāda: No, that kind of man cannot help us. Śyāmasundara: No, we have to work with very trustworthy men, because it's too big, it's too important. Dhanañjaya: I think he's out for prestige. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He's out for prestige. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: Known in this country, m'lord, as a social climber. Śyāmasundara: Social climber. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hmm. So decide like that, then when he comes, I shall talk with him. Śyāmasundara: Ok. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: We try for that. Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, I could find out where George is. I have a few numbers I want to call to try and find him. Prabhupāda: George, being out of . . . station . . . don't count upon him. Śyāmasundara: No, but he'll be back soon. Prabhupāda: So, when he comes then we'll . . . that is different. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and if I know when he's coming, I'll be prepared to see him. *Dhanañjaya: We're going on this Bhāgavata*-saptāha . Should we still . . . should we still? *Prabhupāda: What? That Bhāgavata*-saptāha , that is attractive to the Indians, but the Indians have no cooperative feeling. Then what is the use? Śyāmasundara: Let us this week find out from different Indian men if they're going to be willing, and next Saturday I'll know for sure. Dhanañjaya: Yes, that's . . . Prabhupāda: And another thing is that the Indians, they're inclined to keep their Hindu element, hodgepodge—demigods, this, that . . . *Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our Deities they'll want to install Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa only, that's right. Dhanañjaya: Well. (laughs) *Śyāmasundara: After they've seen our temple, now they all want to install Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is out of sentiment. Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They thought that "If Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa is there, people will come." Dhanañjaya: Yes. I went, I went to visit them . . . Prabhupāda: Here is a different atmosphere. That they cannot create. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: That requires sincere devotion. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. I went to an installation ceremony. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Dhanañjaya: I went to an . . . I was invited with some other devotees to go to an installation ceremony in a temple in the East End of London, and they were installing Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deities there, and at the same time they were having a marriage ceremony was going on. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: A marriage ceremony was going on, along with the installation ceremony. Prabhupāda: What is that ceremony? Merge? Śyāmasundara: Marriage. Prabhupāda: Marriage. Dhanañjaya: Right. Prabhupāda: This hodgepodge, they . . . Dhanañjaya: Yes, and there was this, this one, they had this one, like a professional priest was there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: And he was saying over again, oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi, and again and again he'd be saying the first line of Gāyatrī mantra, like he was chanting japa. And he would start to sing it, and he'd sing louder, and he was cavorting with this microphone, and it was all so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. (chuckles) So, how it is going on so that . . . Dhanañjaya: The same one that . . . who gave us these Deities. Śyāmasundara: Gave us these Deities. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: So when Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa came here, they ordered more Deities from India, you see, and this was the installation ceremony for these . . . Prabhupāda: When it was held? Dhanañjaya: This was about two years ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Two years ago. Śyāmasundara: It was right after we left, I think. Dhanañjaya: About two years ago. Prabhupāda: How it is going on now? Dhanañjaya: Oh, I don't know. I've never been back. Śyāmasundara: They don't have much. Devotee: It is simply sentimentality. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Sentimental. Prabhupāda: That's all. Who will go there? *Śyāmasundara: We went there for a durgā*-pūjā one night, too. I remember. They dance around the room. Prabhupāda: They take it as recreation. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: There is no philosophy. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: There is no seriousness. Then our is different. We are training people how to become real devotee. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is different. Dhanañjaya: Yes. They're also, they were garlanding the Deities with beads. They were giving Kṛṣṇa japa beads, (laughs) putting on. Prabhupāda: They're not guided. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like they are chanting Gāyatrī mantra loudly. That is another rascaldom. *Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Goyal is a self*-appointed guru . Prabhupāda: Oh! He, he wants to become a guru ? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is. Śyāmasundara: They have ambitions, to be guru . Dhanañjaya: And all these meetings, all these meetings I've been to, they're all saying: "We must remain Hindu. We must not forget our culture. We may be in England, but we are Hindus." Like this. "India, she is our real mother, not this England. India, she is our real mother. We must be thinking of India, and to become always thinking of Hindus." Śyāmasundara: How to, how to get rupees out of India. Prabhupāda: So therefore it is very difficult to get their cooperation. They're mentality is, they don't want to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy. They want to remain Hindu. Hindu means hodgepodge, that's all. Hindu means hodgepodge. Dhanañjaya: And at the same time . . . Prabhupāda: Hindu means Śaṅkara philosophy. Śyāmasundara: Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: Yes, that God has no form, and you can imagine any form and worship for your material benefit. This is at the present moment. And we said that we are not Hindus. Hindu is a Muhammadan title, given. Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? (laughing) Śyāmasundara: That startles you. You didn't know that? Dhanañjaya: No! (laughing) *Prabhupāda: Hindu, there is no such word in the Vedic literature. You won't find this word in Bhāgavata , or Bhagavad*-gītā . The Muhammadans outside India, they used to call the sindhus , sindhu . There is a river, Sindhu river. From Sindhu to Hindu. They cannot speak "s," they call "ha." In this way it is a hodgepodge word, but it has come that Vedic followers as "hindus," but this word is not found in any authorized scripture, no. *Our, our system, culture is varṇāśrama*-dharma . That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā , cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ, varṇa ( BG 4.13). Varṇa means four sections: brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra . That is real Vedic culture. That Vedic culture can be all over the world. Why in India? We are trying for that, to get the Vedic culture, which is acceptable by everyone. It is meant for everyone. Śyāmasundara: So actually Śaṅkara introduced this five gods . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . system. *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara had no universal idea, but still the Śaṅkarites, they won't accept outside brahmin caste. They won't allow sannyāsa unless he's a caste brahmin. It is still going on. That is their strict principle. Now it is dwindling—that is a different thing. But we Vaiṣṇavas, we, according to Bhagavad*-gītā , whatever one may be, if he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa consciousness he's eligible to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu Centre they, the only symbol they have is an oṁ , a big oṁ sign, and at the beginning they have a prayer to the oṁ sign. Prabhupāda: Impersonalist. Dhanañjaya: Yes. And their ārati ceremonies are terrible. Śyāmasundara: Their what? Dhanañjaya: Āratis are terrible. Prabhupāda: Terrible? Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Why is that? Dhanañjaya: " Jaya , oṁ jaya jagadīśa hare ." Prabhupāda: Oh, that, cry like anything. Dhanañjaya: Yes, and at the end they sing oṁśānti oṁśānti śānti śānti oṁ . Prabhupāda: So, that determination, "We want to remain Hindu," that is the basic principle of their defect. We cannot get any cooperation from them. Śyāmasundara: They're . . . those are mostly women. There's not many men at these ceremonies. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Mostly those are women also. Prabhupāda: Must be women, because these men, if they could not understand the philosophy, they are rascals. So now religious sentiment expressed by these women, that's all. That is, that is not our purpose. We want to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world. If we say that, "We are Hindus," we may be Hindus, but it is for everyone. Śyāmasundara: There's one or two Hindu leaders that are with us. Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, there are many enemies for me, because I am making brahmins . They do not like that. Śyāmasundara: Oh, then it won't be their property anymore . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . if it goes out of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, this, I think this Devānanda was bright. There are so many things, you see, I don't want to discuss publicly. So I am becoming popular on my own strength. Nobody is helping me. Śyāmasundara: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Rather you are helping me; from India I am not getting any help. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Neither by the government nor by the people. Śyāmasundara: So many big men we went to see. Even, even our own American government is helping us more than . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . the Indian government. Dhanañjaya: Also the BBC. I think BBC is like a father. British Broadcasting Corporation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: It's very, very helpful. Very much in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: BBC. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's an important organization? Dhanañjaya: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: Either that or they were . . . they're spying on us. Prabhupāda: No, any sane man, he will appreciate. Dhanañjaya: Yes, it's a very intelligent organization. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: BBC, very intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is government is coming here. Śyāmasundara: They acknowledged that they came to Nairobi to take films of you. Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, they did. Dhanañjaya: And these two radio programs yesterday. They're very important also. Prabhupāda: So, actually we're very important. What is your impression? Mr. Arnold: Of the, of the programs, my lord? Or . . . Prabhupāda: No, our, this mission, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Mr. Arnold: I think it's, it's just the thing that is needed at the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually it is so. The, what United Nations could not do, we can do that—provided people agree to our terms. These four terms: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling. But that is very difficult. Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. (laughter) Prabhupāda: We put these terms, that is thunderbolt. That is thunderbolt. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Most young people think, "Well I've tried it . . ." Prabhupāda: The whole Western civilization is based on these principles, and we say break these four pillars (laughing), then come to me. That we don't get many followers. There is this condition. If that, like Maharishi, if I would have said: "Oh, no, you can do whatever you like." Śyāmasundara: Oh, you would have millions. Prabhupāda: "Simply pay me 35 dollars, and I give you special mantra." This bluff . . . Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: Like the Roman Catholic Church will sell . . . sell you a free pass into heaven. Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. Mr. Arnold: In the old, in the old days—indulgences. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: Indulgences. The Catholic Church, they, they used to sell passes into heaven, for you or your family—you pay so much, you get to go to heaven. Prabhupāda: Just see. The Muhammadans also they do. (laughter). The Aga Khan. He was doing that. If the man dies, so Aga Khan will give a draft. You know draft? Mr. Arnold: Yes, we know draft. Prabhupāda: So draft will be also within the coffin. So when he goes to hell or heaven . . . Śyāmasundara: He'll have some money. Prabhupāda: He'll get money. Draft. (laughter) And people are paying. You know this Aga Khan's business? Mr. Arnold: Aga Khan? Yes. Prabhupāda: Aga Khan. He was doing this. He was a guru of a section of Muhammadans, very rich section. Śyāmasundara: Nairobi they . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: In Nairobi they were . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So . . . and all the money he was spending in racehorse. Aga Khan had special horse. Devotee: He has become one of the richest men in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: I used to ski with him in Switzerland. *Prabhupāda: And all his officers are Hindus, in Bombay. He never trusted Muhammadans (laughter). Not only that, Aga Khan, even Muhammadan emperors that . . . their all important men were Hindus. Just like Rūpa*-Sanātana. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana. Huh? Devotee: They were Muhammadans. Śyāmasundara: They were Hindus. Devotee: Muhammadan government. Śyāmasundara: They were brahmins . Prabhupāda: No. They were brahmins , but because they accepted ministership from Nawab Hussein Shah, they were rejected from the strict brahmin community: "So you are now servant of a Muhammadan, your, you cannot call yourself a brahmin ." That's a fact. So they were rejected. Their names were also changed: Dhabir Khan or Dhabir Khās, and Sākara Mallik. *And they were mixing with big, big Muhammadan chiefs and landlords and, therefore about them Śrīnīvās Ācārya has written, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa*-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat (Śrī Śrī Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka 4): "He gave up the aristocratic society as very insignificant and preferred to become a mendicant." This is the picture. So. (aside) You can sit down. They were very big ministers, Caitanya Mahāprabhu made them Gosvāmī. *They were thrown by the Hindu society, or brahmin society, rejected them that, "They have become Muhammadan." And actually, just like in our younger days, in our father's time, if one should come to England for education, he has to pass through some prāyaścitta : shaving the head, and have some big ceremony, and feed the brahmins and spend so much money—then you will be accepted in the society. Otherwise you cannot enter the society. He went to mleccha*-deśa , mleccha-deśa , and he has eaten meat and he has mixed with so many, so he will not be accepted. Śyāmasundara: He had to be repurified. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one of our community men, so he became barrister, and when he went back, so he was asked by the brahmins, that "You must undergo this prāyaścitta ceremony." Dhanañjaya: Because he had associated with . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: . . . Muhammadans. Śyāmasundara: Englishmen, Englishmen. Dhanañjaya: Englishmen? Śyāmasundara: Englishmen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: He's using an example from his early boyhood. Prabhupāda: So he became so sorry that he went to take bath in the Ganges and drowned himself, committed suicide. Another, he was also college man, he later on became a very big doctor, Dr. R. L. Dutta, M.D. He also came for education, medical education, here. When he went back, all his father—not father—mother requested, "My dear boy, you have to do this otherwise you will be extricated from the society." So he decided that "I shall leave this society." So, to . . . mother unwillingly granted him permission: "Then you go out. Otherwise our whole family will be extricated." So he simply asked his wife, "Whether you want to go with me or remain here?" She said: "I am your wife. I must go where you go." So the husband and wife went away, and later on they accepted . . . they rejected Hindu religion, they became Brahmo. At that time Brahmo religion was going on. Brahmo religion means . . . Rāmānanda, he was also Rāmānanda Rāya, so he introduced a system of Brahmo religion on the basis of impersonal worship of Upaniṣad. Same church, Rabindranath Tagore's. You know Rabindranatha Tagore's name? Mr. Arnold: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Tagore, the big poet. Mr. Arnold: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: His father, his father introduced. So he became a Brahmo. They don't worship deities. Impersonal. And they can eat anything, whatever they like. The real facility was that they want to eat meat, pigs, or wine. That would not be allowed. You see? Indians, they did not know how to drink. It was either Hindus or Muhammadans. Amongst the Muhammadans, drinking is a great sin, is it not? Mr. Arnold: Still. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still. They don't drink. That's a great sin. Similarly Hindu. Dhanañjaya: I believe this is introduced by the English. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Dhanañjaya: This drinking is introduced by the English. Prabhupāda: Yes. They did not know how to drink tea even. Yes. Mr. Arnold: Gosh. *Prabhupāda: Society girls or meat*-eating or drinking tea—these things were introduced by the Englishmen. They did not know. Devotee: This is Clive? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: This is Lord Clive? Prabhupāda: No, after Lord Clive. Lord Clive was in the beginning. He established the British rule there, by cheating Nawab Siraj Daula. So after Lord Clive, then Lord Hastings. Devotee: Hastings. Śyāmasundara: Hastings Street in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was, what is called, Hastings, that big speaker, Burke? When a man is chastised in Parliament, what is called? Dhanañjaya: Chief Whip. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: When a man is chastised. Mr. Arnold: No, no, not whip, not whip. A man's . . . Mr. Speaker, you mean? Prabhupāda: Not Speaker. Śyāmasundara: If a man is chastised in Parliament, what is the name? What is the term they use? Mr. Arnold: They withdraw the whip. If he's chastised. Prabhupāda: There is a technical. Mr. Arnold: Well, they call it . . . it's chastised, which means to say that when they withdraw the whip, he then has to leave the house for so long until the whip is restored. They're not allowed to sit without the whip. Prabhupāda: Impeachment, yes. Śyāmasundara: Impeachment. Prabhupāda: Impeachment of Warren Hasting. That's a big book. Śyāmasundara: Oh. The American president. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: There was an American president named Warren Hastings. Mr. Arnold: No, there was this Lord Hastings in India. Śyāmasundara: Oh, Lord Hastings. Prabhupāda: Impeachment of . . . he was Warren Hastings, Lord Hastings. He was impeached by one Mr. Burke. So his writings we read, we had prescribed. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Burke's speeches, some Englishman's speeches, out of them. Śyāmasundara: Edmund Burke. Prabhupāda: Edmund Burke, yes. So he impeached this Warren Hastings for his misbehavior in India. Dhanañjaya: So he was so notorious. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He was so notorious. Prabhupāda: Everyone was . . . I think it was so in the Parliament. Mr. Arnold: But Hastings, my lord, surely was trying to be a decent fellow, wasn't he, and uh . . . (laughter) No, he really was, and I am, how I understand it, first of all the whole Indian subcontinent was being sort of taken for a ride by English people out there, you know. They were really trying to make themselves very rich, very quick, and the, and the Parliament in London, they got so scared that they, they first of all removed many of these people, and replaced them by . . . Prabhupāda: That is natural, if you are in important post, then you take bribe. Mr. Arnold: Yeah, this is why they put Hastings there. But Hastings . . . Prabhupāda: Well Hastings, all the governors used to do it. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The system was, if some presentation was given to the governor or viceroy, it was to be not his personal property. It was kept as government property. So, these governors made a trick that the presentation may be given to his wife. So it was not government's property, it was the governor's wife property. (laughter) These things are going on. Śyāmasundara: I remember the story you told us once about an Englishman, and that man wouldn't let him sit on his bench. Prabhupāda: Yes, in our childhood we have seen it. Even Lord Clive. Lord Clive, at that time there was, when he cheated Siraj Daula. Now he wanted to establish, he wanted to construct Calcutta city. So he wanted some money. So he approached one Indian banker, Sukhamaya Raya. Sukhamaya Raya, at that time Clive was giving facilities, who were helping them. The modern aristocracy in Calcutta was practically made by the Britishers. *They used to give titles, that's all. And give land, and that land is Indian land. So if I, if I say: "You can go and take as much land as you like," well what is the loss of the Britishers? But that man became very obliged, "Oh, the Britisher has given me so much land." (laughter) This was false. I take from Mr. Arnold's pocket, and I pay you. You think, "Oh, Swāmījīis so liberal." (laughter) You do not care that I have pick*-pocketed your own man. This was going on. But they did not take any money from England. Rather, they brought all the money from India here. Yes. So the foolish person, they thought that, "As soon we meet any Englishmen, I become rich." Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha. Sahib śubha : As soon as you become a friend of any nice Englishman, your fortune is start. And that was being done (laughter). That was being done, because they wanted men. That anyone knew, every city, he's immediately given some important post. Śyāmasundara: Civil Service. Prabhupāda: Yes. A little English knowledge. Dhanañjaya: And a title. Prabhupāda: Some title and money. But they want some clerks, they want some helper. So people began to learn English, and . . . but they didn't want to give high education. No. Simply to become clerks. So one gentleman, Motilal Sil, he was very rich man, so he saw that, "Now English education is very important." So he wanted to start a college, for free education, so that poor man may take English. Because India was poor, so they could not pay for education. The government stopped, "No, you cannot give free higher education." The government did not want, because the government knew that as the, as soon as these people will be highly educated, they will read history, (laughter) and they will know how to . . . they will know how to revolt, how to fight. And actually that became. Devotee: That happened. That happened. Prabhupāda: They did not want to open the secret. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I'll bet they . . . I'll bet they didn't know England was a small island, either. Prabhupāda: Ah. (laughter) And, and somebody goes, he goes, he's near some village, he becomes Lord . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord this, Lord that, but "Where is your Lordship's . . .? You have got so small village." But they wanted to keep their prestige. That was the point. That Gandhi broke this prestige, false prestige. Otherwise, "Oh, Englishmen, they're coming from heaven." (laughter) And they maintained that prestige, somehow or other. Devotee: Chums for a little village. Prabhupāda: Ahah. (laughs) So, and Indians, and there was a Lord Macaulay's note, what is called that, "If you want to keep these Indians in their original culture, you'll not be able to rule over them." Therefore they wanted to kill the Indian culture. And they did it. Śyāmasundara: Dr. Radhakrishnan? Prabhupāda: Yes, that such a fool, you see. Śyāmasundara: Made President, wasn't he? Prabhupāda: They regularly maintained this, I mean to say, standard that, "Anything Indian is, it is primitive, it is useless. Now we are becoming civilized, under our country." That impression was created. So they liked. Then you must drink. You must drink tea, you must drink wine, you must become, dress like European. Dhanañjaya: Refined. You must become refined. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: You must become refined, like an Englishman. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was in India. Anyone who becomes, imitate, a respectable Englishman, he's considered gentleman. Śyāmasundara: Imitate. Prabhupāda: Imitate. Others, Parsis—you know Parsis—they imitate cent percent. Śyāmasundara: Is there a white, whitish color. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are whitish color also. Devotee: (enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is a Dr. Sharma. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: A Dr. Sharma Prabhupāda: He's here? Mr. Arnold: Or Shah? Devotee: I'm not sure. Śyāmasundara: Who is he? Mr. Arnold: There were . . . I don't know a Dr. Sharma, but there were two Doctors. Devotee: Not Dr. Sharma, Mr. Sharma. Mr. Arnold: Mr. Sharma, ah. Śyāmasundara: Probably Mrs. Sharma's . . . you know Carl Road? Anyway. Mr. Arnold: We have one hundred and eight people, so I don't know them all personally. Śyāmasundara: Mr. Arnold has started a guild, Hare Kṛṣṇa Guild? *Dhanañjaya: Guild of the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple. I sent you a lotus badge. Prabhupāda: Oh, I think that you sent me one. Śyāmasundara: Yes, he sent one badge for how much, they charge? One pound? Dhanañjaya: At least one pound. Śyāmasundara: So we're building up many supporters. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Śyāmasundara: They don't pay much, but at least they're . . . Prabhupāda: So you are distributing among Indians or Englishmen? Dhanañjaya: Everyone. Mr. Arnold: Everyone. Dhanañjaya: Anyone who wants to. Mr. Arnold: The, the main idea, my lord, is so that we can find out exactly what they can do. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good idea. Mr. Arnold: Whether they can paint windows, or wash floors, or then consequently when we do get a very nice little temple. Prabhupāda: And our real point was that, how the, in the beginning, the Indians treated the Englishmen. The Lord Clive, he wanted some money. So he approached that Sukhamaya Raya, he was very rich man, banker. So his secretary or his doorman informed—he was upstairs—that "Some Englishman has come to see you." "Oh, Englishman? Don't allow him to enter the house." (laughter) "Let him sit down on the door. I am coming. I am coming. Don't bring him here." That was the position. So he came. He came down. He was very rich man. This Lord Clive wanted to go and see him. He said his doorman, "Don't allow him to enter the door." (laughs) "Let him sit down on the door; I am coming." So he came. So he introduced, that "I am Clive." At that time he might not have been Lord Clive, anyway. "Yes, yes. I have heard your name." He was speaking in Bengali, interpreted. "So what do you want?" "Now, we want some money. We shall return you very soon with interest." So he said: "Yes, I'll give you money. I know you are good man." Because at that time people were not very much satisfied with the rulings of Siraj Daula. So this Siraj Daula was killed by Clive's intrigue. So some of the people, they liked. Dhanañjaya: So he wasn't a Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He wasn't Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Who? Dhanañjaya: This Siraj Daula Prabhupāda: Siraj Daula was a Muhammadan. Dhanañjaya: Muhammadan? *Prabhupāda: Yes. His only fault . . . he was a good governor, a good ruler, but these Muhammadans are very much woman*-hunter. As soon as there is some beautiful woman, "Bring him . . . bring her." This was going on. So this Sukhamaya Raya advanced money to Lord Clive, and when everything was settled up, he was given vast land and the title "king." Śyāmasundara: The banker? Prabhupāda: Huh? The banker, yes. (laughter) Similarly, Raja Nava Kumar, he was a clerk of Clive, but he helped, so he was also given land and the title "king." Raja Nava Kumar Raya. There is Sovabazar family. So in this way the Britishers created the Zamindars, land . . . land . . . landholders. Śyāmasundara: Oh, they created them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no . . . Prabhupāda: Lord Cornwallis. Śyāmasundara: Before that there was no kings or small . . . Prabhupāda: No, there were kings . . . (break) . . . that is Lord Curzon's advice, that India, send one of the Royal Family member and become King here. Dhanañjaya: That didn't happen though. Prabhupāda: Oh, no. This Parliament interfered. They wanted to bring all money from us. If the Britishers would have ruled, that rule, their administration was very much appreciated, but later on it become exploitation. If the King of England would have ruled the other parts of the world as King, for the benefit of the local people, the British Empire would have continued for long. That was their mistake. It was very nice program, the British Empire. They had very good administration; that everyone admits. But later on the administration became too expert for English people. If they had ruled over the area for the benefit of the people . . . that is the King's duty. As King, as it is Vedic principle, King should give protection to the citizens, make them religious, make them upright. That is King's duty, not that simply collect tax and think that "This property's mine," and spend it as he likes. Of course, in England also, because when the King was doing like that, that Cromwell introduced this parliamentary system. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the King James, he was . . . Mr. Arnold: Executed. Prabhupāda: Executed. Now it is by simply name, "King," it has power. His Majesty, Her Majesty has no power. So this British Empire was very nicely planned, and it was desire of God, but later on they make this policy, exploitation; therefore it failed. That is my opinion. Śyāmasundara: The only, the only thing I could see that they did good is that they gave English, so that you could come to us in the West—so Your Divine Grace could come here and give us Vaiṣṇavism, Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Prabhupāda: So, that was possible even at that time. But they would not accept. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: When India was dependent, they would not accept anything from India; then their prestige is gone. Here, as I told you, when my Godbrother came, Lord Wellington, his wife, Lady Wellington . . . Lord Wellington, he was Viceroy. So there was some introduction later. So Lady Wellington challenged our Godbrother, "Swamījī, your men come here. We educate them, give some title, and they go to India, become very big man, important man. So what you have got to teach us?" She challenged him like that. They are not prepared to take anything Indian, or give any importance. Dhanañjaya: They're thinking you're second or third class. Prabhupāda: No. They knew they're first class, but they would not allow to become first class. Otherwise their prestige is gone. They were teaching that, "Anything, whatever you've got, that is all third class. Take from us. That is first class." This was the impression. Śyāmasundara: Indians are so mild mannered and gentle that they didn't resist. Prabhupāda: No. There is another illusion. If you become supporter of the British rule, you get profit. The British say, "We'll give you land—your land," (laughter) "give you title." So the British businessman, he'll make him chief salesman. (laughter) Chief salesman means any way, they will sell their goods. The chiefs are just like Motilal Sil, he was chief salesman of seven British business houses, but they cannot approach the local customers, they require the help of a broker. But the broker thinks, "Oh, these Englishmen has made me big man." Śyāmasundara: Like Sir Padampat Singhania? He got "Sir" title from the British. Prabhupāda: Yes, that he got because he contributed large sum of money during war fund. So in the commission, not only he, many rich men, got this "Sir" title, because they contributed enough money for prosecuting this war affair. Devotee: Was the Indian government in agreement with this? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The Indian government, did they agree with this? All this? Prabhupāda: The Indian government is British government at that time. Śyāmasundara: There wasn't any Indian government. Prabhupāda: The India was forced to join the war, by British, British government. Śyāmasundara: Pakistan . . . Prabhupāda: And then they utilized Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldier. The India had no hand. And this Mr. Singhania, he supported this, so he was made Lord. So these are politics. Śyāmasundara: Actually, I think that even the word "Sir" comes from Śrī, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The word "Sir", English word "Sir," doesn't that come from Śrī, Sanskrit Śrī? Prabhupāda: Now, that I do not know. "Sir" means gentleman. "Sir" means knight. Mr. Arnold: "Sir" is a knight. Monsieur. It comes from French. Śyāmasundara: I thought it came from Sanskrit, Śrī. Mr. Arnold: It could possibly come from . . . but "Sir" was being used in the West for centuries. Prabhupāda: So where is that Sharma? Devotee: Oh, they went down to ārati . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but the original inhabitants of Britain came from India. Mr. Arnold: Well, this is a . . . (laughs) But, uh, there's two, there's two . . . Śyāmasundara: Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The original inhabitants of Europe and Britain came from India? Aryan, Aryan tribes? Prabhupāda: No, no. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: No. Originally Aryan came from India. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is in Greece, Turkey, and then gradually I think . . . Śyāmasundara: Hun? Prabhupāda: . . . Romans came to England. Śyāmasundara: But there was Huns. Before that there was Huns, and you mentioned others from *Bhāgavatam* , Pulinda, Huns, Mongols, Saxons and . . . Prabhupāda: So Europe, mixed up. Not pure Aryans. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but they, they came from that part, didn't they, India, the . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Huns were in this side, European side. Dhanañjaya: We were also . . . *Prabhupāda: North, north of Russia, still they're Huns. Kirāta-hūṇāndhr . Kirāta means the Africans. So the Europeans, originally Indian kṣatriyas , some of them came to this side, being afraid of being killed by Paraśurāma. Kṣatriya-rudhira-maye jagad-apagata-pāpaṁ (Śrī Daśāvatāra-stotra 6). He was, twenty*-one times killed all the kṣatriyas . *Haṁsadūta: What does that mean, twenty*-one times? You mean they took birth again, and then He . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. Twenty*-one times there's seven years war. *Haṁsadūta: Seven . . . twenty*-one wars. Campaigns. Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time some of them fled from, and settled up here. *Śyāmasundara: Because they call our English language an Indo*-Aryan language. That means they find many of the roots in Sanskrit words. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Sanskrit, the Professor Rowe, he was Professor in Sanskrit, in Presidency College. He has his grammar, Rowe and Wade. We read that grammar. In that grammar he has written that, "Sanskrit is the mother of all languages." He has written. And your European language, from Latin, Latin is also originated from Sanskrit. Just like matri sabdhā , this is Sanskrit. Like Latin mater. Dhanañjaya: Mother. Prabhupāda: Pitri sabdhā . Dhanañjaya: Father. Prabhupāda: Father. Pitā . Dhanañjaya: Pata . Prabhupāda: Pata . Like that. Dhanañjaya: Pata , patri . Prabhupāda: The original "father" and "mother," that is derived from Sanskrit. Śyāmasundara: And in the Teutonic languages also, German languages, like atma means to breath, still. Atma , "to breath." Prabhupāda: And there is one book, Aquarian Gospel? There it is mentioned that Christo, this is a Greek word. But krista is a perverted representation of Kṛṣṇa. In India also, still, we call, if one's name is Kṛṣṇa, we call Krista , still. My younger brother's name was Kṛṣṇa, so we we were, we were calling him by the name Krista . " Krista! " Not Krista —" Kesta ." And from this word krista , the Christ has come. So this Christian religion has got a link with Kṛṣṇa. And Jesus Christ went to India. He remained there for twelve years. That Aquarian Gospel writes; I do not know. You have read that book? Mr. Arnold: Not at all. Prabhupāda: He resided in Jagannātha temple. Haṁsadūta: I've read it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: I read that book. Prabhupāda: You have read it, that's it. But there was some misunderstanding; therefore left Jagannātha temple. He went to Buddhist temple in Katmandu. So at that time he received one letter, his father and mother died, when he was staying in India. So Jesus Christ remained for a considerable years in India. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. There's a whole period of his life, where there's nothing known . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . about him, about his movements. Prabhupāda: Then he started his preaching here. And in the beginning of his life, he was horrified when the Jews were killing birds in the Synagogue. He was horrified. So how Jesus Christ will allow animal killing? And therefore he said: "Thou shalt not kill." From his life, from his other information, he was not for killing. He was not for killing. Mr. Arnold: He did . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: . . . on two occasions cause the death of fish, my lord. Prabhupāda: One thing is, might have done when there was no other means of eating. This is one point, so far I study. Another thing is that what was the purpose, or even there is no purpose, he was so powerful, he could do that. But we should follow the instruction of Jesus Christ, we should not imitate him. Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether that word has been translated from the original language properly. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: There's some doubt whether our word "fish" is the proper translation for that word in the original. Prabhupāda: Many . . . but in the common men, it is clearly said: "Thou shalt not kill. That is, that you have to accept. That even Jesus Christ ate some fish or some . . . that maybe some special circumstances. Mr. Arnold: The breaking of the bread; the feeding of the five thousand—two small loaves, fishes, certain fishes. Dhanañjaya: Five loaves and two fishes. Śyāmasundara: I read a book put out by the Vegetarian Society that said that, that word was translated from the Greek copy of the Aramaic, and in the Greek, that word means a loaf of bread made of some kind of seaweed that grows in Galilee, a kind of sea . . . Prabhupāda: That may be interpretation. But without interpretation, if you have to accept the Ten Commandments, how you can kill? There is no such chance of killing. And other statement that he gave, that the animals are given under the . . . Śyāmasundara: Dominion. *Prabhupāda: . . . dominion of man. That does not mean they are meant for killing. Just like Nanda Mahārāja, Kṛṣṇa's foster father, he was maintaining 900,000 cows, giving protection. And it is the duty of the vaiśya community, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ (BG 18.44). There are three different types of occupation: agriculture, cow protection and trade. That is called vaiśya . So, giving the animals under the human being means protection, not for killing. Suppose if you give . . . you give your child to some gentleman, that "I am going—you take care of this child," it does not mean that the child has to be killed. So I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. I don't. *Haṁsadūta: In the very, very first pages of the Bible it says when Lord created the Earth and everything, and then He says: "The seed*-bearing plants of the earth shall be your meat, and strictly forbidden to eat other things." It says very clearly what they shall eat. *Prabhupāda: Besides that, Lord Jesus Christ says that you should . . . well*-behaved with your neighbor, what is that? Mr. Arnold: "One should love thy neighbor as thyself." Prabhupāda: Thyself? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, in broader sense now, there are many animals, they're also our neighbor, the domestic animals. So Lord Jesus Christ cannot say that your human being are neighbors, they are not your neighbors. And he was horrified when animals and birds are being killed in the Jews' Synagogue. That is . . . so one who is horrified for killing, and he specifically accepted, "Thou shalt not kill." I don't think in Christian religion killing is allowed. *Mr. Arnold: But it's such a long*-accepted practice now, my lord. Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Mr. Arnold: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is different. That is different. You are practiced to something; that is different thing. But when you talk of Christian religion, I don't think killing can be allowed. And besides that, any religion, killing is barbarian. Killing is barbarian. When you talk of religion, there cannot be any killing. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come." Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "When there is a rise in irreligion, then I come." Prabhupāda: Yes. So far Muhammadan religion is concerned, that is also killing restricted, and they had no other ways. It is desert. Devotee: But that's a very . . . *Prabhupāda: Another thing, even killing of animal is required for sacrifice, the Vedic religion also allow—but not cow. These goats, they are allowed. The meat*-eater, under restriction, they can eat goats. But not the higher caste. The Brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśyas , they would not. The lowest class, the śūdras, or lower than that, they used to kill. But not cows, because cow is very important animal. Dhanañjaya: I remember once also . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: . . . on a walk in Mr. John Lennon's estate, you were speaking about how when the old cows and old bulls die, then the mucis, the cobblers, after taking off their skin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: . . . then they could take. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: But not before. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Dhanañjaya: Not before. Prabhupāda: No, it is not very wise to kill cow. But if you want cow's skin, there is guarantee. Anyone will die; you get the skin. And if you want to eat, then at the time when it dies, you can eat. So why you should kill? Killing means economic loss. The cows, while living, is giving the nicest food—milk. And so long you get nice milk, you can prepare so many nutritious foodstuff, from cow's milk. Haṁsadūta: Fertilizer you can get, too. *Prabhupāda: Fertilizer. Cow dung. Cow's urine is also so, I mean, antiseptic. So the meat*-eaters may, if they're insisting. First, first of all, nobody should eat meat. All right, if there is a class of men, they want eating meat, but they can eat. Just like they're eating hogs, or goats. Haṁsadūta: Hunting for things. *Prabhupāda: Hunting other animals. But cow especially must be protected, for society's good. Must be protected—from gratitude. We are drinking milk of cow. How we can kill our mother? From all considerations, especially cow protection must be there. That is the duty of the vaiśyas , kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ . Cow protection is especially mentioned. And the cow blood, the milk is nothing but blood. So you get more vitamin value by drinking milk than eating, drinking, cow blood. From all points of view, cow protection must be there. That is human civilization. From all points of view. Śyāmasundara: And they eat garbage. They don't eat . . . it's not that they're going to eat very much. They eat garbage or any grass. Prabhupāda: No, that is our . . . because of want of food. They should be given nice food. One nice food. Mr. Arnold: Grass. Prabhupāda: You take the paddies of the wheat, and you give him the grass. You take the pulp of the fruit, and you give the skin. You take the plantain, banana, the inside pulp, and you give him the skin. So there is always share, and the cow, taking the rejected portion, is supplying you milk. You cannot avoid milk, but on account of this sinful activity, milk supplies will be stopped. There will be no more milk. That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* . Śyāmasundara: If they have no mercy for the cow, what to speak of other humans, now they're killing the . . . Prabhupāda: They have no mercy. There is no question of mercy. And they cannot be devotion also, animal killers. According to our conception, every living entity is part and parcel of God. So suppose God . . . in Christian religion also it is accepted, "father." So the father has got so many children. Some of them are animals, some of them are trees, some of them are human beings, some of them are insects, some of them . . . like that—8,400,000 species. *Kṛṣṇa claims sarva*-yoniṣu kaunteya : "In all species of life, as many forms are there," sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4). Mūrtayaḥ means "forms." In all species of life. He does not say simply human form—all forms. And Kṛṣṇa's picture, you see, is . . . as loving . . . where is that picture you showed me? Haṁsadūta: He's always with the cow. Prabhupāda: Ah, He is embracing. Haṁsadūta: The cow in the back Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Arnold: I have one also. Prabhupāda: So He has personally taught us how to treat with cow. He began a cowherds boy, and His business was go early in the morning to take care of the cows and go in the forest. Dhanañjaya: And also, of course, when He was, when He was in danger after, after killing Pūtanā, then all the women came, bathed with urine . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, the ladies, Yaśodā and other ladies took Him to the cow dung, and cow's tail, like that, so that inauspicity may go. So cow has been given very importance position. And practically we see, we are drinking cow's milk still. Still also many dairy farms are going on. So cow killing in human society cannot be supported. Cannot be supported. In . . . during Emperor Akbar's time, one poet wrote a poetry presenting to the emperor about the cow's appealing that, "I am doing this, I am doing this, I am doing this. I am simply eating grass, and I don't encroach upon your foodstuff, but still I give you so nice food that your children lives on this, and when I die, I give my skin, I give my hoof. I am so serviceable. I am willing to serve you, and still you are killing me." The substance of the poetry is there, and when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped cow killing: "No. No more cow killing." Haṁsadūta: Which king was that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Akbar. The first Mogul emperor. He simply presented this poetry, had the cow appealing that, "I am giving so much service—not only living time, even after my death. Still you are killing me. And you call yourself civilized." So when Emperor Akbar read this poetry, he stopped. In Afghanistan still, there is no cow killing. Afghanistan. Śyāmasundara: That's a Muhammadan country, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And long ago I was coming from Kashmir, one Muhammadan gentlemen was my fellow passenger, so when he called for that restaurant man, so he was whispering, "Don't . . . is it cow's flesh? "Well, no, no, no, it is not." So there are many Muhammadans, they won't touch cow's flesh. Still, in India. There are many vegetarian also. Śyāmasundara: Many signs in the restaurants, "No beef." Prabhupāda: Yes. So for civilized society, cow killing must be stopped. It is a great sin. From all points of view—from economic point of view, from religious point of view, from social point of view. Dhanañjaya: That's a big task. Śyāmasundara: Everybody thinks that there's no, we have no reason to not kill cows, that we're simply sentimental, the Indians or the Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Sentiment, yes. Do you think this sentiment is bad? You are drinking milk, and cow is accepted as mother. Is this sentiment? Is it sentiment? You drink one's milk, and you consider that animal as ordinary animal. How you are civilized? According to Vedic civilization, even, just like Kṛṣṇa, because He drank the milk of Pūtanā, He took him as mother, although she came to poison Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa took the bright side that, "Whatever he" (laughter) "she, she might have done, I have sucked her breast. Oh, she has become My mother. She should get the exact position like My mother." This is sentiment. *Haṁsadūta: You know one of their arguments is that if we don't kill the cow, there'll be over*-population. They say. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: Yes, they say about the cows that if we did not have slaughterhouses to kill these cows, there would be so many cows they would take up everything. This, this is the kind of argument. Really. I'm serious. They say. Dhanañjaya: That's demonic thinking. Prabhupāda: The rascals, they do not understand they will be oversupplied of milk, he will be happy. (laughing) Śyāmasundara: Everything will be adjusted. Prabhupāda: You'll get more rasgullās . (laughter) Ghee. Dhanañjaya: Cream. Prabhupāda: Cream, so many things. Śyāmasundara: They're actually bred anyway, the cows. Artificial insemination is what makes so many cows. Our cows at New Vrindavan are born from artificial insemination. They take the sperm . . . Prabhupāda: They, they want for food. They want to kill. Haṁsadūta: The people are not . . . they don't . . . they don't even like milk, these people, at least in Germany. They give the milk to the hogs in Germany. They give. But we sometimes go to a farm, you know, and they say: "Oh, and we have just given all the milk to the hogs." Mr. Arnold: They take the cream off first. Haṁsadūta: They said: "We ourselves, we don't, we hardly ever drink milk. We take a little for our coffee, for the cream, but the rest we give to the hog, or we sell to the dairy." Śyāmasundara: They make it into cheese that tastes like meat, smells like meat. Make it into cheese. Haṁsadūta: Most people don't drink too much milk. The younger children, the children drink the milk, but once they get past sixteen years old, they don't take much milk anymore. Prabhupāda: That means beginning of life is from milk. If there was no milk, how your children would live? Śyāmasundara: Even in Russia the babies were drinking milk. Prabhupāda: So still you're killing. No. There is no reason for cow killing. Śyāmasundara: In fact, a cow that eats grass, it only bites it off—it doesn't pull the roots. The grass grows back, and it's harmless. But the goats, they pull the grass up by the root. No grass can grow there anymore. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: So actually in North Africa, it used to be very verdant, very fertile land, and from so many thousands of years of grazing goats—I read an article in a science magazine—it's depleted the soil. No grass grows there now. It's desert, desert country mostly. The Muhammadans introduced goats, and those goats have eaten all the grass. It won't grow back. Dhanañjaya: But before them there were cows, because that's when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was traveling in his kingdom, and Kali personified was . . . Śyāmasundara: North Africa? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, originally it was very fertile, even in Roman times. Carthaginian. Prabhupāda: Cow dung is a fertilization. Any, any stool is fertilizer. So passing stool in the field, that is, stool is utilized for some purpose. Now in the cities, we are passing so much stool, it is being spoiled. (laughter) No, there was scientific estimation, that we are losing so many, so much quantity of fat and hypophosphite, and this, like that. Mr. Arnold: Did you see the article today in the paper, my lord, that uh . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: . . . one borough council was giving farmers, and all the various people, free fertilizers that was in fact, was made from the human's excreta, and the scientists were finding that there was vast deposits of mercury and lead. In fact it was killing the land, and it was being taken from humans. Prabhupāda: In stool? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Prabhupāda: No. In Germany they attempted to extract fat from stool, and they did it. They collected all stool, and by chemical process extracted fat from it. And from practical experience stool is very substantial food, vitamin A, B, C, D. (laughter) You see the hogs, they eat, they become very quickly fat. (laughter) Because human being, eating all valuable foodstuff, they cannot digest—so that is passing into stool. So all the feed values are there. So better the scientist make some research. And they made, German scientist, and they extracted fat from stool. I do not know if they're still doing. (laughter) You know, you know better. Haṁsadūta: I don't know about it. Mr. Arnold: Then the scientists, the German scientists anyway, have made very fine meat from wood. Hauptsfleisch they called it. Śyāmasundara: When was this? Mr. Arnold: They were selling this during the war, in tins. Śyāmasundara: Out of wood? Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: The Germans? Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then why not take vegetable? Mr. Arnold: Yes, but, you know the American Spam stuff? Well, when we were in the army, of course, we got cut off, you know, and we was eating anything. Prabhupāda: So, that Mr. Sharma can come. Let him come in. Yes. He wanted to see me. Mr. Arnold: Well, can I be excused, my lord, for a little while? Go and see my wife? She's downstairs. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: Can I be excused? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: She can come up here. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Śyāmasundara: Later. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Let her come. Oh, you can, you can go, bring her. (to new guest) You sit down. He is going, he is going. Mr. Arnold: Well, I'd like change, my lord, too, because I've out since . . . Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Dhanañjaya: Should I bring his wife? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: He's just coming. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . be introduced to the human society. They will be saved. Dhanañjaya: There's, there's some very nice land still in England that could be used for, for a nice āśrama , country āśrama . There's some very nice land still. In Devon, in the West Country of England, in Wales. Scotland also. Prabhupāda: When people understand that we are doing something very important, they will cooperate. It is our duty to convince them. Śyāmasundara: Intelligent men like Mr. Arnold are many. They can understand through philosophy, if we just give it. Prabhupāda: Mr. Arnold can preach amongst . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: . . . gentlemen*-class men. Śyāmasundara: When he becomes more and more . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . convinced. He's a wonderful man. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śyāmasundara: Very logical, and cool*-headed. Prabhupāda: (people enter and Prabhupada greets) Yes? Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Would you like the fire on? Prabhupāda: What is that? You should come. Śyāmasundara: Fire, do you want the fire on? Prabhupāda: I don't want. Mandir me bhid bohot hota hai. Jagah nahi hai. To ek jagah ka bandobast kijiye, ap log. Rent hoye aur jo kuch hoye. Ek to accha . . . (The temple is very crowded. There is no space. Arrange some place, by rent or by any means.) Guest: Ha, bhid bohot hai. Jagah kam hai. Jagah ka abhi . . . ji ha. (Yes very crowded. Space is alot less. Regarding some place . . . all right.) Prabhupāda: We want a big hall. Guest: Abhi abhi bat chal raha tha, (We have been holding discussions for some time,) and I have to buy another hall, big place in Kingsway, for few months back. Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. (Come come.) Come on. Guest: Few months back. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Guest: But I think they were wanting much more money. We could not afford to pay that much. Prabhupāda: Money ka kya abhab hai? Ap log nahi de sakte? Itna Hindi, itna Indian . . . (Is there any scarcity of money? Can't you people give money? So many Hindus, so many Indians . . .) Guest: Ha, bohot. Yehi to bat hai abhi. (Yes alot. This is the main thing.) Actually I started coming only few months back. Prabhupāda: (Mrs. Arnold enters) How are you? Mrs. Arnold: Very well, thank you. Very nice. Prabhupāda: To iska bandobast kijiye. Itna bada, bhari kam ho raha hai. Hindu log sab so rahe hai. To isiliye to patan ho gaya. (Then make arrangements for this. Such a huge amount of work going on. All the Hindus are sleeping. That's why there was a downfall.) Guest: Ji ha. Bilkul. Ji bilkul thik kahe. Apki bat thik hai ki abhi Hindu log aur paisa kitna kharch kar le lekin idhar abhi itna dhyan nahi dete. Agar hum ikatthe hokar . . . yehi bat thik hai. (Yes. Absolutely. Whatever you say is right. Your opinion is right, that no matter how much money Hindus spend, they do not give attention to this. If we are united . . . you are right.) Prabhupāda: Wo ek Pakistan nikal gaya uske liye ro raha hai . . . (One Pakistan has left and they are crying) and we can make the whole world Hindustan. Guest: Ji hai. Thik he (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Inka thoda dimag me dijiye na. (Insert the idea in their minds.) Guest: Thik he. (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Thoda sa Pakistan nikal gaya to janma bhar ro rahe hai. (Only Pakistan has separated and they are crying throughout their life.) Guest: Ji ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: And why don't you take this opportunity to make the whole world Hindustan? Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Thoda samajh lijiye. (Please understand it.) I'm doing that. Guest: Bilkul thik bat hai apki. (What you are saying is absolutely right.) *Prabhupāda: I'm claiming the whole world is Bhārata*-varṣa . Last night's . . . you were present last night? Guest: Actually, I'm staying over thirty miles from this place. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I told that, that whole world was Bhārata, Bhārata*-varṣa . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You remember? Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So I'm claiming the whole world Bhārata*-varṣa , and whole world Vedic culture. Guest: Thik he. (Okay.) Prabhupāda: And whole world's God is one—Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: So why don't you help us? Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know why the Hindus, they are not, they are not coming, in my cooperation. They are so much downtrodden. Guest: That's right. Wo to itna hai ki apne log apna hi sanskriti ko bhul gaye hai aur agar dusre ka . . . (They are so fallen that our people have forgotten their own culture and if others . . .) Prabhupāda: Iska mane jahannum me gaya. (That means they have gone to hell.) Guest: Ji ha aur dusre log jo inko apnakar wo wahi prachar kar rahe hai, un pe bhi apne log kehte hai ye to aise hi hai. (Yes, other people are adopting this and preaching but our own people consider them useless.) *Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, kaun prachar karega? Kaun hai prachar karne wala? (No, no, who is going to preach? Who is there to preach?) I can challenge all these rascals. They come to earn some money. These so*-called Bhāgavata reader, and these, and Swami, and . . . they come to earn some money. They do not want that this culture should be spread, neither they know how to spread it. Guest: Yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda samjhiye. (You people please try to understand.) I've used some strong word, but it is with great regret. That so many Indians there are, they are not coming to my cooperation. Guest: That's right. Abhi age se kuch, age se preaching . . . matlab ki ho raha hai jagriti lekin itni nahi jitni honi chahiye. (Nowadays, there is relatively more preaching . . . I mean they are awakening but not as much as it should be.) Not so much as we should. Prabhupāda: That we have congested. We want immediately. We cannot expect monetary help from others. Guest: Naturally. Prabhupāda: You see. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: But they are still giving us so much help, these European boys and American boys. Guest: Yeah, they are doing a lot more. Prabhupāda: Not a single Indian coming. Guest: Yeah. That I do realize, because I started coming this temple about six months back. So I went through some of the literature which I got from Oxford Street in the beginning, before, when I came from India. Prabhupāda: That is my plight, you see. Guest: And I was . . . Prabhupāda: I don't get any Indian, Hindu cooperation, in such a big movement. Guest: So I thought that we Indians who should have much more, sacrifice much more devotion, much more donation to this city and this . . . Prabhupāda: Now immediately we require a big place. Guest: Yeah. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And so, so many Indians, rich Indians are there; they are not coming forward. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: To ap log yadi cooperation karke kuch bandobast kare to makan to bohot mil jayega. Bohot mil jayega. (If you people cooperate and try to manage something, then we will find many buildings. We will find many.) How many Indians are here in London? Dhanañjaya: Around 200,000. Guest: How much? Prabhupāda: 200,000. If they, if contribute one pound each. Guest: One pound each will be with one . . . Prabhupāda: Immediately we can purchase a nice place. Guest (2): Today, the United Kingdom is about ten thousand, uh, ten lakhs . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): Ten lakhs . Guest: Ten million. Dhanañjaya: One million. Guest (2): One million, that means ten lakhs of people living here . . . Prabhupāda: So we can immediately raise ten lakhs . Guest (2): In London there are only about two lakhs now. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): In London there are two lakhs. In whole of the United Kingdom . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Isko ap log sab . . . hum to buddha ho gaya, hum kya kar sakte hai? Hum to introduce kiya. (So you people . . . I am an old man, what can I do? I have introduced it.) Guest: Apne bohot kiya. Waise ye maine dekha. (You have done a lot. I have seen.) We went to all the temples of the world and . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (3): The thing is a great achievement. Guest: In this century, I would say . . . Prabhupāda: They . . . you simply speak on your lips but don't come forward to help me. Guest: Hm. That's right. Prabhupāda: It is a great achievement, undoubtedly. Whole world will accept. That's a fact. Guest: Abhi maine apka darshan nahi kiya tha lekin wo literature apka . . . (I had not got your darshan until now but your literature . . .) I have been going through. Abhi pata kiya, abhi aya hua hu. (I came to know just now, so I have come here.) *Prabhupāda: Itna kitab diya humne, itna service kiya . . . (So many books I have given, so much service I have done) . . . but I don't want to become proud. It is my duty I have done. But you should know it. You should help me. Neither the government is helping, neither the Indian people is helping, and neither the foreign . . . Subhas Bose, he raised fund and established one INA fleet. But I cannot do that. Why this non*-cooperation? I do not know what I have done. Ap log thoda sochiye. (Please think about it.) Why this non-cooperation spirit? *Guest: Oh, nahi (no), I would say not non*-cooperation, it is ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes, I don't get their cooperation. Guest: It's ignorance, that they . . . Prabhupāda: But ignorance—that, that it is foolishness. Guest: The foolishness I would say. Prabhupāda: It's not ignorance. It is foolishness. Itna zarurat hai . . . (It's an urgent need) . . . immediately for a nice place. And so many English boys are coming. I can keep thousands of them . . . Guest: Thousands of . . . Prabhupāda: . . . if I get a proper place. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Isko ap log thoda gaur kijiye. Thoda bandobast kijiye. (You people please take it seriously. Make some arrangements.) Guest: When Keśava from USA—he came here about two months back . . . Prabhupāda: Who? Guest: Keśavananda. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He's my disciple, Keśava. Guest: 455 Valencia, San Francisco. And at that time they went to have some place, but they said we could not have money, that's what the . . . Prabhupāda: The money, you can, you can contribute. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I came in America with seven dollars only. Guest: That's right. Prabhupāda: Nobody gave me money. Neither government, neither big men. Guest: No, that I know. It was all you alone, personally and all great continuous perseverance. Prabhupāda: Ap log thoda sympathetic ho karke movement ko badhaiye. (You people, please be sympathetic and try to increase this movement.) (break) (end) Conversation -- August 10, 1971, London Śyāmasundara: There's already a big church on it. Dhanañjaya: That may be better, because there's more space there. Śyāmasundara: We haven't seen it yet. We haven't gone inside yet. Mr. Arnold: I'll try and make arrangements to go and have a look at that. Śyāmasundara: And also that other one around the corner. Mr. Arnold: The . . . (indistinct) . . . chapel? That's a very large building. But you can't go outwards. You can't go up. And there's no other facility. Śyāmasundara: . . . (indistinct) Mr. Arnold: Near Oxford. A very large building, but it's, it's in a bad state of repair. Śyāmasundara: We'll concentrate on the other ones. Dhanañjaya: (indistinct) . . . best as far as the land's concerned. It's situated in the biggest area of space. Śyāmasundara: I have to try to find out when George is coming back. Prabhupāda: George can give his . . . what is called? Śyāmasundara: Endorsement. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Endorsement? Prabhupāda: No. What is called? Reaction, or . . . Dhanañjaya: His qualities? Prabhupāda: No. The show, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Concert. Prabhupāda: Concert show. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Better he can raise funds from New York, but . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, most of the money that they get from these concerts is not on the concert itself but on the record album and the movie that comes from it, the film. Dhanañjaya: And the royalties. Śyāmasundara: Royalties from making a record of music and the film of the show. *Prabhupāda: Uh*-huh. Śyāmasundara: Just like Bangladesh. They raised about a million dollars from the concert and nineteen million from the record album and film. So those two don't require any special place. They could be anywhere. Dhanañjaya: Better here though, because George has never made any public appearances . . . Śyāmasundara: Actually I think it would be just as big here. Dhanañjaya: Yes. If the result, if people knew, if it was . . . Śyāmasundara: He's never made a public appearance. Only one in America. Dhanañjaya: Everyone from all over Europe will be coming to see him, without a doubt . . . in Europe there's about 350 million people, almost 400 million. Śyāmasundara: Actually he made two statements that, well, they practically promised to do this. He said in Los Angeles when he saw the Deities, "Oh, we must have a place like this in London." And then in New York, because I said: "Well, we don't want to be on your show here. We volunteer. You promised . . ." I said: "You promised us to be on the show in New York, and he said: "I know I promised, and I must fulfill my word, I gave you my word, but I'm just asking you if you will not be on this show, and later I'll have another special concert for Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: So remind him. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What about these Hindu communities? Śyāmasundara: Well, that we can do during this time you're here. We can organize it. We can at least inspire them to help us. Prabhupāda: Are they willing to cooperate with us or not? Because they have already opened some Hindu temple. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Dhanañjaya: There's not so much cooperation from them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They want their own local temple. Dhanañjaya: They come here and they stay for āroti , they take a little prasāda , they give some money, then go. Śyāmasundara: They, the Indians know how to organize those things better that we do. They know how to collect money from individual Indians in their neighborhood, one, two pounds at a time. They can do that. Mr. Arnold: We went out to an Indian concert one night at Southall. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: This was . . . we were very welcome, made very welcome indeed. And they had like a very small television, and they had pictures of the Deities there, and Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . about the chanting, and they loved it. I should mention there must have been about five hundred people in that hall. Śyāmasundara: There's no Hindu temples on the West End, West End. Mr. Arnold: There's one in . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Oh, there is? Mr. Arnold: Sikh. Śyāmasundara: Sikh, yeah. But I mean Hindu temple. Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders, the leaders of these communities, they're not so willing to raise funds on our behalf. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders of the Hindu communities, they're not so willing to raise money on our behalf. They'll do it for their own functions, and their own temple requirements, but not on our behalf. And it's a weak . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I'm thinking of the way Sadha Jivat Lal raised so many lakhs of rupees, by selling, organizing, highly organized . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. If they will, they can. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But he says they're not willing. That is the difference. Mr. Arnold: I don't think they're willing at this stage, my lord, because there's been so little done for them, and I feel, and I . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, we're having Jagannātha parade, Prabhupāda is speaking . . . Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers. Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us, "Oh, they are mlecchas , they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good." Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmin , they are not satisfied. Dhanañjaya: Also they say that here in our temple they don't let anyone else speak, so why should we . . . they, why should we let them speak? This is what they say. Because we don't allow them to come, you know, and talk on Hinduism, so they say, "Why should we ask, let them do it here, in our community?" Śyāmasundara: Still, they're asking us to supply them pūjārīs . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They're asking us to supply them pūjārīs . Out of all their community, not one man will volunteer to be the pūjārī . Prabhupāda: They're asking us for pūjārī ? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So why not take charge? Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu center, didn't they ask, a couple, "Come and live there, be pūjārī , " and . . .? I was hearing that. Prabhupāda: But we cannot become pūjārī . . . Śyāmasundara: Under their, under their direction. That's the trouble. Dhanañjaya: So they have, they have already installed a Deity. They have a Deity of Vasudeva in the Hindu Center, but He's not dressed. He's standing with cakra , but He's not, He's not clothed very nicely, and the room is not decorated very nicely at all. He's just standing there. And they asked for a pūjārī to come and look after. But they . . . you see what they're thinking, they're thinking, "Oh, we're pious. We're pious for acquiring Deity." You see? "Deity is only for the lower class people, so they can see, or they will be reminded that God is here. But we already know that God is here." So they turn and sit with their back to the Deity and they talk like this, and the Deity is here. Prabhupāda: No. They, as Dhanañjaya said, that are not willing to cooperate with us. *Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not so sure. They used to be when I was here, and I think if you have a Bhāgavata*-saptāha , if the weather stays, and the weather's any good . . . I don't know. *Prabhupāda: But the Bhāgavata*-saptāha , if they are willing to cooperate with our Bhāgavata-saptāha. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, that's what I mean. *Prabhupāda: Some, some priest come from India, and they cooperate with me. But if they have a feeling of noncooperation with us, then what is the use of paṇḍitas and Bhāgavata*-saptāha ? Śyāmasundara: Saturday night you'll be speaking in the Hindu Center? Dhanañjaya: On the fifteenth. Śyāmasundara: Saturday, next Saturday night. So that will be a good indication. We'll know after then, if they cooperated, if they'll come. I think there'll be a big crowd. Dhanañjaya: Actually, you see, it's the younger Indian families also. They're English. They're not Indian. They're more English than Indian. Their children, they don't speak Hindi, and they're playing just like Western children. So they're, when they see us, when we, when devotees go there, to the communities, they're so eager to take the books 'cause they can read them and they can relate with, with Kṛṣṇa consciousness somehow. Because they go every Sunday to their meetings there, and they hear the priest, and it's all boring. It's for the older, for the old. It's sentimental. That's all. So the older people, they're coming, and they're listening to the readings of the *Rāmāyaṇa* and so many other things. And the young people, they know, "Oh, these, these European people and American people, they must be doing something genuine. Otherwise why are they sacrificing so much?" Prabhupāda: So how to attract the Indian younger people? Dhanañjaya: But then again, they're influenced . . . Śyāmasundara: They've asked us in that Hindu Center to teach classes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: They've asked us to teach classes also in that center. Prabhupāda: So why don't you do that? Śyāmasundara: Not many people come, though. But we could attract them to come. Advertise and attract. Dhanañjaya: See, that . . . their main function is on a Sunday, and the last time Your Divine Grace came there, last year, that's where they hold their meetings, in that hall. But it's full of so much nonsense. They have pictures of Vivekananda . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you call that Dr. Shah? Śyāmasundara: Dr. Shah. Prabhupāda: He cannot help us? Śyāmasundara: I don't know. We're still not sure about him. Prabhupāda: And that one Mr. Ahujya came? *Śyāmasundara: Uh*-huh. There are many men here who respect us, who would help us . . . Prabhupāda: He wanted me to go to his house. Śyāmasundara: Ahh. Prabhupāda: From that Auckland. Śyāmasundara: Oh, he's from Auckland. Prabhupāda: So he visited there . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, that's right, I know him. I have his card, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have got his card? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him just now? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I have his . . . I think I have his phone number and everything too. Prabhupāda: So call him so he can come here just now. He was talking seriously about "You please come immediately." Śyāmasundara: I have his Delhi address too. Prabhupāda: Now suppose the estimate is 250,000 pounds. So how much the bank may advance? Mr. Arnold: I don't think the bank, in this state of, of, umm, the one at King Street, Hammersmith . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Arnold: The one at Kings Street, Hammersmith. I don't really think the bank will advance you anything. Umm, you see you've got nothing to mortgage. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Arnold: This is the first thing. You see, when we're talking of Kingsway Hall, you know, the big one, before, well here you had a bank on the site, and they were rather anxious to keep their premises, and consequently they would have loaned us money to retain their site. Any of these four that we're dealing with at the moment, there are no other banks or building societies on the site. This is what I think is, is absolutely imperative, that within the . . . Prabhupāda: The bank will not be prepared to advance in such property? Mr. Arnold: Well, they may well do, but it would only be . . . one couldn't guarantee that they would be expected to. But the bank manager, where the account of this temple is kept, they may be tempted to loan a half or three quarters of it, if they think that the thing is a good . . . I mean, this site at Kings Street, Hammersmith, for instance, if we don't buy it, then the suggestion is that within the very foreseeable future the place will be pulled down to build a large hotel, which means to say that the site is very valuable. On this score, the bank may well be tempted to loan you some money, just on the site alone . . . (indistinct) . . . the premises. They would be interested. Prabhupāda: Then means that a church turned out a new building. So that is a big stake. Mr. Arnold: Mr. Dwyer was very anxious that the Dawson Place should have been purchased, or some house of a similar nature, because these can be used. Śyāmasundara: (referring to Mr. Ahujya) He'll be calling up in a few minutes. He's just gone out. She said she would tell him. He has an Indian Handicrafts house. Prabhupāda: Suppose we can arrange for the money, somehow or other, half. Half a million required? Mr. Arnold: For, for the new premises. Prabhupāda: One fourth million if we can arrange. So is it possible to arrange for the other one fourth million from the bank? Mr. Arnold: I think that if you're putting up a quarter of it, a quarter of a million, then I think there's every certainty of the bank loaning you the other quarter. I think this is quite a definite circumstance. Dhanañjaya: See, because what they do is they loan the money on the strength of the value of the property. If the value of the property is 500,000 pounds, then they'll be quite . . . Prabhupāda: So why don't you try for this property? Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Then I will need the help of this Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . I can try to raise that one fourth million, and one fourth million if the bank advances, then we can negotiate immediately. Śyāmasundara: It would be nice if the Indians could help. Prabhupāda: Do some practical proposal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So far George is concerned, now it is more or less Utopian. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because . . . Śyāmasundara: You can't count on him at all. Prabhupāda: . . . if he was willing, he would have done long ago, but he is not very serious. Śyāmasundara: Well, I've never asked him for it, to do that. Prabhupāda: So what is this asking? When he visited our Los Angeles temple, he appreciated and he said, "Why not a temple like this in London?" Śyāmasundara: Well he's . . . I . . . he's been waiting for me to come here and talk to him here about it. I haven't . . . Prabhupāda: But it is difficult to meet him. Śyāmasundara: Well, he's just out of station now. As soon as he's in station I'll get him, I'll meet him. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him in New York? Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is. Prabhupāda: That you are getting. Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is. Prabhupāda: But they can say, his men here. Śyāmasundara: His men here won't say. They don't know themselves usually. Only his wife or one other, two persons know. Prabhupāda: So his wife is here? Śyāmasundara: They're all with him. His manager, Terry, is there. Dhanañjaya: Bob Dylan would know where he is. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but Dylan changes his number about every two weeks. I have his old number from a year ago. I'm sure it's not the same. Prabhupāda: If he agrees, he can in one night, he can. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I have one number in New York who would know where he is. Al Abramovitz. Mr. Arnold: I wonder whether this large records firm in New Oxford Street . . . Śyāmasundara: Warner Brothers? Mr. Arnold: No, no. Record. James something or other. James . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, right over here. Mr. Arnold: Yes, in New Oxford Street. Devotee: Yeah. Mr. Arnold: They're agents for practically every . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, the, one of the, man who works there, big man, is also with George now. They might know where he is. Mr. Arnold: . . . something to do with that particular firm. Devotee: Derrick Taylor. Dhanañjaya: Kenny Records. Śyāmasundara: Kenny, Kenny Records. Well, there are several record agents. They might know . . . Mr. Arnold: The whole building is taken up, and it all comes under the roof of James something or other, or agencies. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Mr. Arnold: Now in New Oxford Street, you can see it very easily. There's a Midland Bank, takes up the ground floor. Śyāmasundara: It's right over here, isn't it? Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, so long I am here, let us try some tangible, not simply proposal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Now we've seen how nice places we can get, so we have to work on these other angles: the Indian community and George. Mr. Arnold: The bank Śyāmasundara: And the bank. There's . . . what about Mr. Gopal? Did you see him? He's very wealthy. Dhanañjaya: Yes, but he helps by donating material things. Not material things, but he likes to give things rather than . . . Śyāmasundara: No, he's never been tactfully approached for anything else. He used to like us. He'd come around all the time. He lost his son, so he adopted us, like that. He used to give us presents, money. Dhanañjaya: The most he's given is carpets. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Carpets. He was giving carpets. The purple carpet in the temple. Śyāmasundara: The carpet in the temple cost how many hundreds of pounds? Dhanañjaya: Three hundred pounds. And the material for the Rathayātrā cart. All the material. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Dhanañjaya: He lives in Stretton. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Dhanañjaya: Near Stretton. Śyāmasundara: Do you have his phone number? I'll call him, call him. He's, I'm sure he . . . we could count on him to give something for . . . Prabhupāda: So take their consult, what price they want. Dhanañjaya: There's also Nandalal Chabria, Mr. Chabria's son, he's here. Śyāmasundara: He's not very wealthy. Dhanañjaya: No, he's not wealthy. Prabhupāda: This Chabria is here? Śyāmasundara: Yes. His son. Dhanañjaya: Nandalal. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nandalal? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What is his father's name? Śyāmasundara: Rāma, Ramachand. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ramachand. Dhanañjaya: There's Mr. Padma. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Those men might help do legwork, but they're not wealthy in themselves. Prabhupāda: So you raise one fourth million. Śyāmasundara: Okay. (begins laughing) Prabhupāda: And Mr. Arnold will help for the bank one fourth. Mr. Arnold: I don't think I can get my bank to loan it, my lord, but certainly we'll go and see the bank . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: And we'll pay gradually to the bank. Then we can immediately . . . Mr. Arnold: You see, the tragedy is, my lord, they haven't got one account in this temple in my bank. Śyāmasundara: Then why don't we go and take an account in his bank? Dhanañjaya: Mr. Arnold's in the Midland Bank. Prabhupāda: So why not open all the accounts there? Or ask the present bank that we are proposing this. Otherwise Midland Bank is a famous bank, it is nice bank. Mr. Arnold: Well I suggest that they, they should go to the National Westminster and tell them that you'll want this loan for . . . Prabhupāda: But they agreed, National Westminster. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: To agree to pay on account of this Kingsway. Mr. Arnold: Oh, no. That was Lloyd's that agreed then, because they were trying to save their premises. They knew perfectly well that if it went to someone else then the whole premises, sooner or later, would be torn down. Prabhupāda: That was it. Mr. Arnold: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: So he's, he promised them perpetual lease. Prabhupāda: At what price it was being sold? Dhanañjaya: Two and a half million pounds. Mr. Arnold: Two and a half, which is exactly the price that I told them to put the bid in for. I went over . . . Prabhupāda: Two and a half million. Mr. Arnold: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What Dāyananda didn't tell us is that the bank was prepared to finance the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Huh! Śyāmasundara: The whole thing. Mr. Arnold: Well the bank and the building society. *Śyāmasundara: One building society and one bank combinedly would have financed the whole thing, but he sent us a letter that said only two*-thirds, they would finance two-thirds. Prabhupāda: So he is not very intelligent. A missed opportunity. Mr. Arnold: See, I went to the Midland Bank, to various departments, and I found out almost to within a penny what exactly what it would raise. Of course, some of the people that put in the bids it happened were Midland Bank customers. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I did it, and I . . . Prabhupāda: The bank was prepared to finance it, and he missed that opportunity? Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and he didn't even tell us. *Mr. Arnold: The bank was only going to loan two*-thirds. Then the building society next door was going to help, and also the National Westminster was prepared to help, I'm quite sure. But of course, I think . . . Prabhupāda: It was not tactfully done. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: Not intelligent. Śyāmasundara: He didn't tell us. Prabhupāda: He is not very intelligent. Śyāmasundara: Had he told us a hundred percent financing . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? *Mr. Arnold: I pleaded with him to send you a letter. Of course you told him that to only put in a bid for a million and a half, and I pleaded with him to send you a letter that said no, step the bid up to two and a half million. Because quite honestly, I feel that the place was so vast, and most of it was let*-places like Decca Recordings, Kodak, things like this—that most of the repayments to the banks would have been met quite easily. Prabhupāda: I asked him also to consult some expert. Śyāmasundara: Well, somehow or other . . . Prabhupāda: That was two and a half million, and it is half million. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Perhaps it's better if we go step by step. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Someday we'll go up into the big place. There will always be a big place. Dhanañjaya: But there was not even a thousand pounds here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: There wasn't even a thousand . . . at the time, there was not one, even one thousand pounds in the temple fund, and they were going for a two and a half, one and a half million deal. Prabhupāda: No. The bank was prepared to finance. That is the point. Mr. Arnold: You see, I sort of schooled Dāyananda and told him to go over and have words with the bank manager, promising that, you know, if they helped us to fund this building, then we would guarantee them tenure, and instead of paying interest back on the, on the loan, we, for bids, we would give them a guaranteed tenure, or peppercorn rent, but we would pay the original loan back, so that there was no charge at all, it was just . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, na tasya śocananarthi. Don't lament which is gone. (laughter) Mr. Arnold: Yes, thank you, thank you. Dhanañjaya: Don't cry over spilt milk. Prabhupāda: That is Sanskrit, na tasya śocananarthi . Śyāmasundara: Actually, for a place in the center of London like this, it's nice to have offices and a small chapel and maybe a bookstore, but we would not be able to recruit many people to come on a residential basis, being in the center of the city. But in a place a little bit further out, like in a student neighborhood, everybody comes. Prabhupāda: What? Student neighborhood? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they'll come. Prabhupāda: So, why not negotiate that? Śyāmasundara: Daily they'll come and then gradually become devotees. Prabhupāda: No, among the young men there is hankering after this sort of an institution. Everyone asks me, "Why the younger generation is attracted to this movement?" so many reporters. So somehow or other, I reply: "The young men, they're receptive, they can understand the value, whereas the old fools cannot." (laughing) Mr. Arnold: Well, my wife and I, we can. We're old. Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are excepted. You are excepted. Sometimes old men are called old fools. (laughing) Mr. Arnold: My wife is twice . . . she's older that I am, and she's made me return because sometimes I've lost my temper with, over, you know, various things that happen . . . Prabhupāda: The thing is that you are liberal to understand things as they are. But generally, old men, they are sophisticated. They do not like to accept anything new, "Go away." Or they are not serious about religion. That is another thing. Actually . . . as I see that old, older section, they have been habituated in a different way, so they do not want to change . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. So "Here is a nice thing; you should accept it." They are not inclined in that way. All stereotyped. Just like you have said last night, I told Lord Zet . . . (end) Conversation -- September 5, 1971, London (Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society): (The following italic text was not recorded but was written on the reel box before recorder was switched on) Dr. Ware: Swāmījī, you'll be glad to know your Society, like ours, is worldwide and not based upon color, creed or designations. Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Prabhupāda: So now the soul is in this body. Next time, the soul will be in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I . . . (break) . . . designation. According to the body I create my designation. But one has to become free from all designation. That is called liberated stage—in his own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. *But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material mode of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation, "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that"—these are all designation. So real perfection of life is without designation. And that is the real, constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya*-kṛṣṇa-dāsa ( CC Madhya 20.108-109). Actual position of the living entity it is (indistinct—microphone feedback problem) Don't disturb, let it go . . . (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for . . . to come to that transcendental position, without any designation. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, or God. That position is perfect position. And if one keeps himself in that designationless position, always thinking of himself as part and parcel of God, then next life he goes back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After quitting this body he does not come back again to take another material body. He takes spiritual body, or develops a spiritual body, and goes back to home, back to Godhead, which means eternal, blissful life of knowledge. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. We are trying to bring all men—of different dimensions, different division—to come to this position, always thinking of that, "I am part and parcel of God. My real position is to serve God." Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. The business of the finger is to serve the body. So long it is in normal condition, the finger is meant for serving the body. When the finger is painful, or in abnormal condition, it cannot serve the body. Similarly, the living entity, being part and parcel of God, when we cannot serve God, that is his abnormal condition. And when he serves God, that is his normal condition. That is designationless position. That is our program. Dr. Ware: That's very interesting. To my mind the nearest approach in the Christian religion is the Unitarian position, which I don't know if you have studied. Prabhupāda: Christian religion is practically . . . from the name it appears, Christian and "Kṛṣṇian." Original word of this "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christo." Dr. Ware: "Anointed." Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Ware: "Anointed." Prabhupāda: Yes. This "Christa" is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Ware: From the Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṭa is the popular word for Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is always anointed with tilaka . We follow this tilaka , Kṛṣṇa, anointed with the sandal pulp. So, so far I think, there is some very nearest relationship with this Christian and "Kṛṣṇian". Kṛṣṭa means love, love of Godhead, or love. We are preaching also the same philosophy. Try to . . . not try, the love of Kṛṣṇa is there in everyone's heart, but it is covered. And being covered, it is misplaced. We are loving our society, loving this body, loving our family, loving our kinsmen or loving internationally human society. But this love is actually perverted reflection of real love of God. Because the love is not placed in the real place, therefore we are being frustrated in love. Just like in our country Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country very much. But at the last moment the countrymen shot him down. He was shot down by his own countrymen. The love was paid by shooting him, and he lost his life. There are many instances. Dr. Ware: Socrates, Christ. Plenty. Prabhupāda: Yes. So here, the love propensity is being misplaced in this material world. That should be placed in God. Then the love will be perfection. Just like if you pour water on the leaves of the tree or branches of the tree, it is simply a waste of time. If you pour water on the root, then the effect of pouring water is distributed. Similarly, foodstuff, if you place the foodstuff on your nose, on your eyes or your ears, it is simply wasted. But if you put foodstuff to the mouth in the stomach, immediately the energy derived from the foodstuff is distributed throughout the whole body. Similarly, if you love God then your . . . automatically your love is distributed to everyone, every entity. But if you don't love, if you simply love your country . . . just like an Englishman, you love your country; German, he loves his country, but there is fight between the English and the Germans because the love is misplaced. But if the Germans or the Englishmen or the Indians, they put their love in God, there will be no more fighting. *Therefore our philosophy is to educate people how to love God. That is real religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first*-class religion which teaches the follower how to love God. And as soon he becomes a lover of God . . . just like I am Indian, but I have come to Western country to teach love of God. It is not that I am satisfied only in myself that, "I love God—that's all right," but due to my love to God I love others also, because I am trying to teach them to love God. The same philosophy. So if people take seriously this movement, how to love God, then human society will be perfect. Dr. Ware: May I suggest you've already made one contribution from India, which is almost the antithesis, and corroborate your suggestion about pouring water on the root. We do get leaves from India. We pour water on them, and we make that delicious drink, tea, which is one of those drinks which are used for inculcating the brotherhood of man. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But do you think it is natural to pour water on the leaves? Dr. Ware: Well, why not then? That for leaves, water's natural. Prabhupāda: No. You practically you see it is—water on the leave, but you don't water on the root, it will dry up. If you put food on your nose, on your eyes, the eyes will be blind and the nostril will be suffocated. But if you put in the proper place, in the stomach, the energy will be distributed. Dr. Ware: You know that's just an analogy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is natural. Similarly, if God is the root of everything, as we understand from Vedānta*-sūtra . . . God means the original root of everything: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The description of Absolute Truth, or God, is there in the Vedānta-sūtra . That first aphorism is, "What is God?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā —inquiry about God. The next aphorism is, "God is that which is the root of everything, from which everything emanates." That is the perfect definition of God, "the origin of everything." So the same example in God, that the root is the origin of the whole tree. Dr. Ware: The seed is the origin of the whole tree, if I may say. Prabhupāda: How you can be origin, because you are the effect? Śyāmasundara: The seed. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The seed. *Prabhupāda: The seed. Yes, seed. The seed is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10): "Everything that is living, the root, or the seed, I am." God says. The seed is God. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām . Just like the rose tree, it has got a seed, but where from this seed comes? (guests entering room) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . give him another . . . (indistinct) *Seed, original seed is God. Your theory of seed is very nice, but the original seed of everything is God, the cause of all causes. In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is said: Kāraṇam . Kāraṇa means cause, cause of all causes, seed of all seeds. There are different seeds. Dr. Ware: Causa causam. Prabhupāda: Ah, cause of all causes. Śyāmasundara: That's Latin? Dr. Ware: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's similar. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Ware: A Latin legal phrase: causa causam , the cause of the cause. *Prabhupāda: I see. So God is cause of all causes. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is explicitly said: "I am the original source of everything. Everything is emanating from Me." Iti matvā , "understanding like this," budhā . Budhā means those who are conversant, thoroughly in knowledge. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva samanvitāḥ , in ecstasy, "Oh, here is the original cause of all causes." So in this way those who are advanced in knowledge, budhā , they engage themself in the service of the original cause of all causes. He's the cause of all causes, but He has no cause. That is God. Anādir ādir govindam . He has no cause, but He's the cause of all life. That is God. Just like I am the effect; *my father is the cause. Similarly, my grandfather is the cause of my father. My grandfather is the effect of the cause great*-grandfather. You go on searching out, searching out. So when you find out the original cause, that is God. That is the definition of God. Mensa Member: Do you . . . (indistinct) . . . prime mover argument is who is the prime mover? What is the logical necessity for a first cause? Would you agree with that? Dr. Ware: Well, I think it's inherent in your definition of something that's omnipotent that it's very like saying it's necessary to have no beginning in order to have no end. It's really a concept. Whether it exists or not it doesn't matter. Mensa Member: Yes. Then even negatives imply limitation. If something has only positive attributes, it's limited if you exclude negative attributes. Or is that just a . . . Dr. Ware: Well no, if something has all attributes, we only cause, or call them to be caused, positive or negative because we have a tendency to want to think in terms of dichotomies, "good" and "bad," whereas really, if you're a scientist, you say: "This exists." It's only when morals come in, you say some things are good and some things are bad, and you start making antinomies. Really, your Godhead would contain all those things, and to Him there's no such thing as good or evil, but to Him they are all of value. It's man who saw the good and evil. Mensa Member: I wasn't particularly thinking of the good and evil value. I was simply thinking of negative attributes. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sorry, I don't know quite what you mean. Unless you define the negative attribute, I'm not quite sure what it is. Mensa Member: Not beginning. Dr. Ware: Well that, with respect, I think, doesn't really follow, because there're some things that don't have opposites or negatives, although (in) nature. This is what I say, that there are certain categories of things to which if somebody says: "Now what's the opposite of that?" you'd have to say: "There isn't an opposite," because it isn't the sort of thing to have an opposite. Mensa Member: So you wouldn't accept the prime mover either? Dr. Ware: Well, it's not an argument; it's a postulate. I don't accept it. I mean, you have to accept it if you're going to . . . you know the total . . . (indistinct) . . . so to speak. You can't have it half way. Prabhupāda: This word "positive" and "negative" . . . just like the sun—the backside is the negative and the front side is the positive, light and darkness. Dr. Ware: Well the sun doesn't have a backside of darkness. It's light all round. Prabhupāda: I mean to say, in relationship with the sun, the planet, the planet in the front side there is light. In the backside there is darkness. But the darkness is the effect of the light. Where the light is absent there is darkness. Dr. Ware: Only to an observer. If there's no observer there, there's no difference between light and dark. Prabhupāda: No, this is the actual position. Just like this is sun, but this side is light, this side is darkness. So light and darkness, two opposite elements. But it is due to the same cause. Absence of light is darkness, and presence of light is light. Dr. Ware: Or I say there are some things that have those dichotomies and others don't. Prabhupāda: So actually the cause is one, but in different position, one side is light, one side is darkness. Therefore the cause cannot be different. The cause is one. But under different position it appears, "This is light," "This is darkness." So bad, which you consider bad, that is also caused by the Supreme Cause. In the Supreme there is no good or bad. Everything is absolute. Just like the sun is always light, but, in relationship with sun, the planets, one side is dark, one side is light. So black means that is also caused by the light, absence of light—that is black, dark. Dr. Ware: With respect, it's not caused by the light. It's the absence of light. Prabhupāda: Absence, that I'm saying. It is also, indirectly, the cause is the light. Dr. Ware: No, because your illustration you gave of the light of the sun falling on one side and making that light and the other side dark, but you can also have a body which is in the complete absence of any light anyway, so there won't be any differentiation. Prabhupāda: No. There is light. The light is now visible. Light is there. Just like we say that our relationship with God is there. One is conscious; *another is unconscious. Otherwise, God consciousness is there. Therefore any process that awakens that consciousness, that is perfect process. The consciousness is there. That is stated in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , an authorized book. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). This God consciousness is not something artificial. The God consciousness is there. Just like these European boys and girls, they're now devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Not that artificially we have imposed this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness was there. By . . . under certain process of treatment that has been awakened. Dr. Ware: That's why I think it's better to accept that as it is, rather than make analogies, which are dangerous. Prabhupāda: I may make analogy or not analogy, but the thing is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but it is covered. As soon as its covering is taken away—it is uncovered—the original position comes out. Śyāmasundara: I believe he made one observation which is rather in the British tradition, I believe, where he said that if there was no observer, then there would be no such thing as light and darkness. Dr. Ware: Yes, light and dark are subjective reactions. Really, the scientists would say there are wave lengths of a certain type in one part of the universe and in the other they're absent. But until you have an observer, you can't notice that. Mensa Member: But the planet would still be there . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Well, Samuel Johnson quite rightly refuted that by taking . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Actually, there is no darkness. Take it sun as, it is whole. There is no darkness and everything is in sunshine. All the planets, they are rotating in sunshine. So under certain condition, one part is becoming dark, another part is light. But actually the whole universe is full with sunshine. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma ( Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). That is the exact definition given in Sanskrit: everything is light, brahma . Mensa Member: That's another postulate. Dr. Ware: You can build any theory according to the number of postulates you're willing to accept which cannot be analyzed, including the basis of science, that the atom, as originally thought of by Theocritus and others, is this thing that you cannot go beyond and cap down . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying with your philosophy or your theology that you go down until you can find nothing, except that you say that causa causam , and then you build back again from that. But that's what I was saying earlier on: the . . . (indistinct) . . . is very close to the Unitarian position in Christianity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: Far more acceptable to every type of Christian than any of the specific creeds or sects, you know, the Church of England, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, every other form of prophecy. And you have that greater universality . . . (indistinct) . . . and you've got Tibetans who will accept your basis in the same way as a Westerner could. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Ware: A Tibetan could accept your position. Prabhupāda: Tiberian? Tibetians? What is their philosophy? Dr. Ware: You've heard of the Dalai Lama? Prabhupāda: Yes. What does he say? Dr. Ware: Well, his position would be the same as yours, wouldn't it? In religion? Mensa Member: You mean the Tibetan Buddhist attitude towards the Godhead is the same as the Kṛṣṇas? Dr. Ware: Yes. They have that same basis. Prabhupāda: But so far we know, that Buddhists, they do not believe in God, existence of God. Dr. Ware: No. They believe in this existence of a "Goddess" if you like. Mensa Member: It's very subjective. The Buddhist point of view in general seems to be very much that of the nineteenth century English rationalist, the agnostic, in its visual sense. Dr. Ware: That's why I say the Unitarian comes closest to it. Śyāmasundara: What is that? Mensa Member: Well, the fact that a Godhead is . . . is impossible to comprehend. It maybe or may not be in very brief terms. Dr. Ware: But if you accept its existence, then it's present in everybody. Which is exactly what you're saying. Whether they utilize it, whether, as you call it, uncovered, or to the degree of which they are conscious of it, is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of consciousness, development of consciousness. Dr. Ware: That's where your line, I think, is so very good in saying that the real evolution of man's mind has been his ability to produce more and more of the functions of whatever the mind may be. But the mind is just as indefinable as God. We know what the brain is, but we don't know what the mind is. Yet more and more of it under conscious control instead of being irrationally eruptive. *Prabhupāda: But there is a summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā : bahūnāṁ janmanām ante , jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise, he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution. That is real evolution. That evolution will go on. But when it comes to this summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is the cause of all causes. That is the final realization. Unless one comes to that point, he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence. Śyāmasundara: How does our philosophy define mind and intelligence? Prabhupāda: Mind is instrument. The mind's position is accepting and rejecting. And intellect helps the mind what to reject and what to accept. And that intelligence is of the soul. That ground of intelligence is the soul. First of all bodily concept is gross life, ordinary, like animals, they do not know except the body. Higher than bodily concept of life, the exercise of the mind, mental speculation. And that mental speculation is adjusted by intelligence, and that intelligence belongs to the soul. Therefore soul is the ultimate, and soul is the part and parcel of God. Therefore God is the supreme. *So the mental speculation or the evolution of mental exercise, when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti , sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one realizes, "God is everything," that mahātmā , that great soul, is very rare. That is the statement in Bhagavad*-gītā . Mahātmā means whose mind is great. The mind is great. He's not thinking ordinary things; *he's thinking of greater subject matter. They are called mahātmā , broader minded, broad*-minded. Dr. Ware: Do you differentiate, as Jung would do, it's only a matter of attempting to comprehend the differences . . . (indistinct) . . . of things, the difference between thinking and feeling as rational functions? Prabhupāda: That is the function of the mind—thinking, feeling and willing. Psychological activity. Dr. Ware: Do you differentiate them separately? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Ware: And intuition as well? Prabhupāda: Saṅkalpa , vikalpa . This is, in Sanskrit it is called saṅkalpa , vikalpa , or accepting and rejecting. That is mind's function. I think something, and again I reject it. Dr. Ware: Well, you also react, too. Prabhupāda: You can say in any language, but the function of the mind is flickering. Just like when Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa to train the mind by meditation, by yoga system, he said that "Kṛṣṇa, it is very difficult for me." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34). "My mind is very," I mean to say, "agitated. I think to control the mind is as impossible as the controlling the wind." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi ba . . . vāyor iva suduṣkaram : "And it is very difficult to . . . (indistinct) . . . high wind, and if you want to control it, as it is . . . (indistinct) . . . similarly, I think the activities of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, to control that is very difficult for me." So actually that is the position. So long we shall be on the mental platform there will be no fixity of conclusion. That is not possible. We have to accept something for the time being, then again reject it. Therefore all mental speculators differ. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A philosopher is not philosopher until he differs from other philosophers. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam . Unless you place a different thesis, he will not be accepted as a good philosopher. Dr. Ware: There it differs from science. Because if science is actually correct, it can only be one. Prabhupāda: But philosophy is taken as the science of sciences. Dr. Ware: Theology used to be that. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: It shows a misconception of the word science. Prabhupāda: So far I remember—I was also a student of philosophy—Dr. Urquhart, he said the philosophy is science of sciences. The science, their, I mean, theory begins from philosophy. Philosophy is the science of sciences. But according to Vedic version, a philosopher is not a philosopher if he has not a different opinion from another philosopher. Nasau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam . Therefore, through the philosopher you cannot come to the right conclusion. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . If you simply go on arguing, that will also not help you. If you simply read scriptures, that will also not help you. Because there are different scriptures. Bible is different from *Vedas* , and *Vedas* is different from Koran. So tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), by argument you cannot come to the conclusion. By simply reading scriptures you cannot come to the conclusion. By following the philosophers you cannot come to the conclusion. Therefore the truth is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ . It is kept very confidential. Then how to have it? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186): you have to follow the great personalities who have actually realized God. That is the conclusion. Dr. Ware: The trouble is that you only have the opportunity of hearing or reading what somebody else has said what they have said. So you're back again on the trouble of diversity of observation and opinion. *Prabhupāda: No. So far we are concerned, we are receiving knowledge directly from God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : It is accepted, spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore if you take conclusion from the speeches delivered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is fact. That is very easy authority. Just like the other day I was explaining to Mr. Mathew that, "You are searching after who is your father, but if you simply ask your mother, 'Who is my father?' the truth is immediately disclosed." Immediately. Dr. Ware: Being a lawyer, I would say that that doesn't necessarily follow. Prabhupāda: Why? Dr. Ware: Well, it's a wise woman sometimes who knows who's the father . . . Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune if your mother cheats you. That's a different thing. That's different. We are expecting mother will not cheat us. Dr. Ware: Some of them don't know! Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Suppose you are a lawyer. I put my faith in you, but if you cheat me I lose the case. That is another thing. Dr. Ware: Sometimes it's just honest ignorance. Prabhupāda: No. Generally mother is honest. If one is unfortunate, he has got a mother like that, cheated. Generally expected, a mother is honest. Mother loves his (her) child, he (she) gives the good information. That is mother's position. But if someone has got a different mother, that's . . . The same thing can be applicable to you also. You are lawyer. Everyone depends on you, but if you conduct a case in a different way just to make profit to other party, you can do that; that is my misfortune. I have to depend on you for conducting the case. I have no other means. Dr. Ware: And the poor lawyer has to depend upon the other person in telling him what is supposed to be the true facts. Prabhupāda: But my position is, as soon as I appoint my lawyer, I'll have to depend fully on you. I cannot do anything else. Whatever you advise me, I have to do that. Dr. Ware: Yes, but whatever you told me depends upon what advice I give to you. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But, as you say, the mother gives misinformation. Similarly, if you misguide me, that you can do. But I will have to depend on you. Dr. Ware: But not deliberately. A lot of people don't know that that information is wrong. Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes it is done deliberately. Sometimes it is done deliberately, because everyone in this material world is imperfect. Therefore there is tendency of cheating. That is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul—he becomes mistaken, he becomes illusioned, he cheats and his senses are imperfect. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sorry, I think you're using the word "cheat" in a much broader sense. We would use "cheat" as conscious mistake, as opposed to a person who doesn't realize that what he says doesn't happen to be true. Prabhupāda: No, no, conscious . . . suppose you think it is right but it is wrong. That is also cheating. Without knowing the thing perfectly well, if you deliver your knowledge to somebody, that's cheating. Dr. Ware: Well, I think that's being a bit hard. When a person is not . . . if he's tried his best to do something and he doesn't intend to mislead, to call that cheating is a bit hard. Prabhupāda: No, even if not intend, but if you misguide some way or other without sufficient knowledge, that is also cheating. Dr. Ware: Well, we would say, using the English language properly, that's a misuse of the word. Prabhupāda: But, generally, if I'm not in perfect knowledge, if I guide you, that is, according to Vedic version, that is cheating. You must be confident of the knowledge perfectly. Then if you deliver that knowledge, that is right. Just like our position is that we say what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa is God, so we say what Kṛṣṇa says. We don't say anything which does not Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa does not say. Therefore you are confident that we are delivering the right message. We don't manufacture our own philosophy or words. We simply say: "Kṛṣṇa says, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa, God, says that, 'You simply surrender unto Me, I take charge of you.' " We are preaching the same philosophy, that you surrender to God and you'll become happy, because God takes charge of you. We don't manufacture our word. That is not cheating. Dr. Ware: Yes. But this comes back to what you were saying earlier on. You were saying it isn't necessary or sufficient to read the scriptures. Well if, as you just told me, you say what Kṛṣṇa has said, well then if I could find . . . Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa has said, that is not scripture. Dr. Ware: No, but if it's written somewhere, I can read that; I don't need anybody else to tell me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it is accepted by the great ācāryas that He's God, then there is no doubt. If Kṛṣṇa is accepted God by all the ācāryas , bona fide ācāryas , authorities . . . Śyāmasundara: Well, I think what Prabhupāda is saying is that a spiritual master is requisite in order to transmit knowledge—even though it may be revealed in the scriptures to the student—according to the time and place. Just like someone may be able to read in a book about how to perform a brain operation, but unless there's a master there to transmit that knowledge into reality, it's useless; it can't be performed. Dr. Ware: That merely means, you might say, if you're going to be very thorough and precise, that the . . . it could be explained in greater detail, but it's easier to do it with a master. But you can learn a foreign language by reading a book, although it's much easier if you're taught. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here is the medicine, diabetic. So I have accepted this medicine through a bona fide doctor. Although it is meant for diabetes, I have not accepted this medicine, neither it is advised that this medicine should be accepted by a bona fide physician, so I cannot see properly whether it is good for me. But when the physician, qualified physician, says: "Yes, it is bona fide. You can use it in this way," that is nice. Mensa Member: Coming back to your previous point, if he made a mistake and it's the wrong medicine, would you say he cheated you? Is that the point you were getting at? Dr. Ware: This is what worried me. Śyāmasundara: Yes, because if he purports to be a physician . . . Mensa Member: No, he is a physician, and he makes a mistake, a healthy, genuine mistake. Prabhupāda: Therefore we say we have to receive knowledge from a person who does not commit any mistake. That is our proposition. Dr. Ware: Well, that would be going like God. If you define it that way, you're . . . (indistinct) . . . aren't you? Mensa Member: That does seem a bit . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I said . . . Śyāmasundara: This can be proven. This can be tested. If someone's cheating or not cheating can be tested on a factual basis. Similarly, this science can be tested . . . Prabhupāda: Observation and experiment. Śyāmasundara: Whether it has effect, a good effect, or it has a bad effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is coming down from Kṛṣṇa through the chain of disciplic succession. So if it is actually given in the exact definition, that process, it is effective. And it is actually being experienced that it is effective. Śyāmasundara: Just like this medicine . . . *Dr. Ware: Which may not, unfortunately . . . this is the danger of analogy. This medicine may work in ninety*-nine cases out of a hundred, and in the hundredth one it could kill the poor chap. Now you can't say that the physician was cheating in prescribing it for the hundredth chap, because he just didn't know. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . on the other hand, the other medicine might have worked. Dr. Ware: Hmm. Mensa Member: It is very dangerous. Analogy's awfully dangerous. Dr. Ware: But then some people have to have a concrete example, or they haven't any . . . (indistinct) . . . it's when you analyze the analogy that you can see it's difficult . . . Prabhupāda: No, analogy, of course, it is not always the perfect method. Analogy means the greatest number of similar points. That is analogy. Perfection of analogy is there when there is the greater number of similar points. But we give sometimes the analogy as we understand it. But so far our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no need of analogy. It is accepted as truth, and Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and whatever He says is truth. There is no mistake, and if we carry that message, there is no mistake. Dr. Ware: In other words, Kṛṣṇa is the voice of your God, then. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God Himself. That is accepted. We accept Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara. Īśvara means the controller. Just like here there are controllers, but here any controller is controlled by another controller. But param īśvara , God means who has no other controller. He's the supreme controller. That is described in the Brahma*-saṁhitā : īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇa . He's the supreme controller. Here, any controller, he's controlling . . . just like this physician. He has learned his medical science from another physician, another physician, another physician. So we are not the supreme physician or supreme controller. Dr. Ware: May I give you an example of the fallacy there, is that Sir Alexander Fleming didn't learn his curative, antibiotics, from any other person; he discovered them by natural scientific methods of observation and inference and experiment. Prabhupāda: But experimental knowledge of scientific handling must have . . . he have learned from somebody else. Dr. Ware: That's a different thing. Prabhupāda: Therefore he has a teacher. You cannot say that . . . or he has taken the techniques of other scientists and he has experimented in the laboratory appliances. That is . . . he cannot say that he has . . . he invented the laboratory appliances. Dr. Ware: No, but his power of observation was important. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is all right. Dr. Ware: That's in him, and nobody else. Prabhupāda: But he, he has taken help from other scientists' method. Śyāmasundara: In other words, everyone operates under a certain set of restrictions, controls, that are not of their own choosing. Everyone is in that category. They may think, "I am the controller of my own destiny," but actually they are being controlled on every side. Dr. Ware: That's so. But it's only when they break out from that control by, let's say, making an observation or having an intuition that isn't inherent in the system of control in which they've been brought up that they make an advance of any sort. You see, people with . . . I always give this example of Sir Alexander Fleming and Florey and others. People have been trained that dirty petri dishes should be thrown away, because they're moldy, they will interfere with the experiment. This happens time again. Whereas a man suddenly thinks, "I will have a look at this. I'll ignore that." He breaks away from this control. Mensa Member: It wasn't anything new, simply a rearrangement of current, existing data. Dr. Ware: Nobody'd ever . . . they were controlled to reject it. This is what so often happens. Perry Mason is a wonderful example of that—a person who always picks out something that's been rejected in his . . . his celebrated works. Mensa Member: I don't know if Perry Mason is . . . Dr. Ware: Oh, Perry Mason is a very popular courtroom . . . as they say, or trial lawyer, as they call it in America. A person called Erle Stanley Gardner has written a large number of books . . . Śyāmasundara: But a person's knowledge in the material world will always be imperfect. No matter how much he may advance in scientific knowledge, he'll never be able to solve the problems of birth, death, disease and old age. Dr. Ware: Yes. But I mean the Americans, I believe, they would say, "Of course, but so what? You can live without a country." If you start worrying about whether you'll ever be able to comprehend the intellect, you will really not get through the day. Śyāmasundara: But the goal of life, being to become satisfied with my life, is not meant in that way. Dr. Ware: Oh, I agree that to be satisfied with life is to cut down your desire for omniscience; to be satisfied that you can only hope to do quite not . . . not . . . not all of the things you'd like to do, to comprehend quite not . . . not all of the things that are possible. If you are content with that, you may be content to play. Otherwise you'll be one of these dreadful people that become paranoics. Because the world only pressures you into . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Contentment . . . the death is there. If I, somehow or other, make a compromise, that is different thing. But I don't like to die. There is old age. I don't want to be old, but if I make a compromise, that is a different thing. But my desire is not to become old, not to become attacked by disease, not to die. These are my desires. So I can make some compromise, being unable to solve the problems. That is a different thing. But these are the problems. These are the problems. Dr. Ware: It was once rather well put by some woman who said to Mr. Carlyle, who's in a way of being a philosopher. "You know, Mr. Carlyle, I accept the universe." He said: "Madam, you'd better." This is the beginning of, you might say, reason. Prabhupāda: There are sentiments, like Cowper said: "England, I love you with all thy fault." That is another thing. That is a compromise. Dr. Ware: The difficulty is, in any form of discussion like this, it's very fascinating, but it does show the limitations of transmission of feelings and ideas and all those complicated things by a simple verbal process, this is the real problem. Mensa Member: I agree entirely. Zen immediately comes to mind, where the problem's recognized, immediately acted on, and it's admitted that there's an impossibility of transmission by an individual. Dr. Ware: This is where you can't get a feeling across by writing a textbook of it. I think . . . Prabhupāda: No. One thing is that somebody's concluding that to solve this problem—birth, death, old age, disease—is impossibility. That is one school. Another school, if they're following then there is possibility of control over the birth, death, old age and disease. So why not this school, who does not say there is impossible? No, there is possible. Just like we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), that, "Anyone who understands Me thoroughly, he, after quitting this body, no more accept this material body but comes to Me." Now, so long I accept this material body these problems are there—birth, death, old age and disease. Then if I don't accept this material body, then these problems are solved immediately. Dr. Ware: This is what they call "solution by denial." Prabhupāda: It is not called solution. It is a fact, because it is followed . . . then you have come to the original position, to follow the mahājanas. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Our thought is guided by that mahājana . We accept the mahājanas , the great personalities who have achieved success. We follow. *Dr. Ware: "Let us now praise famous men and our fathers who beget us," as they oddly enough seem always to be prize*-giving girls school. But I've never been able to understand why. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that these personalities have to be in a living form, not just in the past. But they live in the form of a spiritual master who's there to guide us personally—not just praise someone in the past. Unless this process is transmitted in a human form personally, it's not . . . Prabhupāda: That is the process in the material world also. You are lawyer because you have studied laws under some big lawyer. So the process is coming. Dr. Ware: I assure you, Swami, that the reverse was true. I went to Oxford. I sat at the feet, as we would put it, of one of the most tiresome men I ever met in my life. He gave me an extraordinary distaste for the law. Any law I've learnt has had to be learned the hard way by, you know, looking at statutes, looking at cases. So I regret to say that I have my own personal experiences . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is of course later on; in the beginning you are a student of a lawyer. Mensa Member: That's used for analogy, because some people have gone on . . . (indistinct) . . . no matter who they are. Dr. Ware: Yah. Yah. Well this is the only thing, "Seek and ye shall find, or be still and ye shall know." I think this is the essential feature that you've been saying is that, really, this grace comes to anybody if they're only willing to expect it. It's inherently there. Mensa Member: With respect . . . (indistinct) . . . among many other people, prove that it's absolutely impossible to establish a rational, umm, a rational grounding for religion. In other words, trying to logically prove axioms is logically impossible. Dr. Ware: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . not necessary. Śyāmasundara: But by verbalizing this philosophy of the Absolute, it trains the student in accepting the inexperience . . . that which is only experienced, by leading them to that point. But certainly we have to have some verbal confirmation of this truth. Dr. Ware: Well some people, oddly enough, don't need it. Some very simple people can have a very true spiritual life without ever needing to verbalize it, usually because they had—this is where I think it's perfectly correct—they have followed some father figure or mother figure, and you know, absorbed . . . Śyāmasundara: Just like my child. Dr. Ware: Yes. Śyāmasundara: She's to that point without having any rational knowledge. Mensa Member: There's some . . . (indistinct) . . . simple people also . . . (indistinct) . . . people like Blake, for example, or Buddha . . . (indistinct) . . . simple person. It's not this sort of faith, only childlike faith—it's often found in simple people. Dr. Ware: It certainly is easier for them, though. It's easier for the simple person, because he doesn't have all these mental, complicated doubts and, you know, arguments with himself. Mensa Member: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's said that as one progresses more and more in spiritual life he becomes simpler and more innocent. But in the beginning he may have had to comprehend it on some verbal level in order to . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: I often used to say to my students that I've got to remember that if anything in life to realize the difference between simple and complicated, which is objective, and easy and difficult, which is subjective. In other words, sometimes a simple thing may be terribly difficult for a person to get hold of, whereas complicated things people find quite easy. Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority. Dr. Ware: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same . . . to some people it comes terribly easily. Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority. Dr. Ware: You then reject the idea of a fear of God. Prabhupāda: No, I don't reject. The thing is that perfect knowledge is received from the authority which . . . beyond the material defects. Dr. Ware: No, what I mean is, fear is not necessary for learning from an authoritarian source. Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect. Śyāmasundara: He's saying that you don't need to necessarily have to fear the authority before you accept him. Prabhupāda: There's no question of fearing. There's no question of fearing. Dr. Ware: That's what I thought. You don't acce . . . that doesn't come in at all. Prabhupāda: No. No. It is out of love, out of affection, the reciprocation. Dr. Ware: Well, that's what I think very often, that it is fear that prevents people from accepting. Prabhupāda: No. No. Why? Mensa Member: That's true. Śyāmasundara: He said that sometimes someone may fear authority. That prevents them. Prabhupāda: Of course, when you accept the . . . that is not fear; that is obedience, respect. Respect. That's not fear. Just like my students—they are not fearful of me. Because I came from India, so what business they have got to be afraid of me? Neither I'm very . . . a greater man, but they receive the philosophy, they understand the philosophy; therefore they have got respect for me. The teacher should be offered the due respect. That is not fear. That is not out of fear; it's out of love. Dr. Ware: I was saying that fear prevents it. Prabhupāda: No. There's no prevention. There's no fear, because they are quite at liberty to ask me question, and they're asking and the answer is there. I receive so many letters daily. So there's no . . . they are not afraid of me. But, out of affection, they offer respect. Dr. Ware: May I make one strange statement that I think it is rather true of the present world? People are always afraid of fear and love. It's almost as though it's something rather sissy or, you know, to get so mixed up with sentimentality. Mensa Member: I don't know what it is rather than fear. Dr. Ware: Well, I mean . . . if you don't know . . . if I were afraid of you because of absolute knowledge or . . . Mensa Member: Yah. Dr. Ware: . . . terrified of the unknown. Mensa Member: That's very true. That's why plan children and such like and things like the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement who not only profess . . . (indistinct) . . . scare into lots of people. Prabhupāda: Just like the child is afraid of the father. There is affection. "My father is displeased if I do . . . Father has said, 'Don't touch this,' so I don't touch. My father has . . ." So that fear and affection, both is there. It is not simply that he is afraid of his father, but the affection is there. So to become obedient to the authority, there is a tinge of fear also, but that is based on affection. That is not actually . . . Śyāmasundara: They were saying also that in this age, particularly now, there is a great fear of loving someone or something on the part of the large population. They think that by . . . Prabhupāda: There is no real love. There is expectation of being frustrated in love. Dr. Ware: Rebuffed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rebuffed. So therefore they're . . . Dr. Ware: Terrified, actually. *Prabhupāda: So because everything in this material world is perverted reflection, therefore we sometimes love somebody and we become frustrated. So therefore others see that, "This man has loved that girl and he's now frustrated. Oh, why shall I love?" That is due to frustration. But there is a perfectional stage. There is a perfectional stage, therefore we say it is perverted reflection. Just like our Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa—that is the perfectional stage of love. Rādhārāṇī is a young girl and Kṛṣṇa is a young boy. There is love. So originally this love between young boy and girl is there, but that is in perfect stage. Here, in this material world, the same thing is pervertedly reflected. Therefore it is imperfect. So we have come to the perfectional stage, not be afraid and give it up—frustration. But love is there. But there is a perfectional stage of love. We have to learn that. Dr. Ware: The Greeks call it agape , as opposed to the old, other form of eros . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lust and . . . eros , lust. Agape is pure love, transcendental love. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to bring everything to the perfectional stage. The others, they're, out of frustration, they want to stop all activity. That is voidism—to stop all this activity. Buddha philosophy is more or less based on this voidism: make everything null and void—no more activities, no more love. We don't say. Just like you cannot see properly because our eyes are diseased. To cure the disease, and then you see properly. And other says, "All right, pluck it out. The disease in the eye, take away." That is not very good proposition. We say that make treatment to make the eyes to see properly. Remedy problem. *Our proposition is, sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat*-paratvena (CC Madhya 19.170). We simply cleanse the process. The seeing process we cleanse. We don't pluck out the eyes out of frustration: don't see; make everything void. No. We don't say that, because there is no void; it is simply frustration. There is variety, nice variety, spiritual variety. We are bringing people to that position. Dr. Ware: I must say that's very interesting. *Mensa Member: Can I ask one last question? The Bhagavad*-gītā —do you accept that as historically . . . an historical fact? Prabhupāda: Truth is historical fact is. *Śyāmasundara: Bhagavad*-gītā —did it take place? There was a battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is historical. *Mahābhārata* . *Mahābhārata* means the history of Greater India. Greater India. *Mahābhārata* . Dr. Ware: *Mahābhārata* . Prabhupāda: This *Mahābhārata* means . . . mahā means greater. Formerly, five thousand years ago, the whole planet was called Bhārata, India. India it is now called. Actually the name is Bhārata. Bhārata is the name given after the reign of Mahārāja . . . one King Bharata. He was the ruler, emperor, of the whole world. After his name this planet is called Bhārata, this whole planet. *Mahābhārata . Mahābhārata is Greater India or Greater Bhārata. The headquarter was in India, but it was greater, according to Mahābhārata history, and this Bhagavad*-gītā is given there in the Mahābhārata . Therefore it is history. And actually it is historical, because the battlefield is still existing . . . Dr. Ware: In the mind . . . Śyāmasundara: No, it's there, Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra, battlefield. Dr. Ware: Oh, I'm sorry, that's the place . . . (indistinct) . . . I thought you meant the battle was still on. *Prabhupāda: No. Battlefield, where the battle was fought, took place, that is still there. There is a railway station, Kurukṣetra. And that Kurukṣetra is still dharmakṣetra , a religious place. People go for pilgrimage, and in the Vedas also it is stated that kuru*-kṣetre dharma . . . (indistinct) . . . you perform religious rituals in Kurukṣetra. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). It is fact, historical fact. It is not imagination. But many commentators have taken as imagination, therefore they are misled. It is historical. Mensa Member: Well, will you . . . can you take the central road, Dr. Ware? Dr. Ware: I would not need a road if I took it . . . (indistinct) . . . you have been very generous with your time Śyāmasundara: You may ask more questions if you like. Dr. Ware: Well, I'm sure there are other people who, I mean to say, wanted to have the opportunity discussing matters. Mensa Member: Next time the Swami's in England, perhaps we can . . . Mensa members can . . . (indistinct) . . . in comparative religion could be . . . Dr. Ware: Indeed, I think that would be very . . . and also it would be very interesting if you would care to take our test. Śyāmasundara: Test? Dr. Ware: Yes. The entrance qualification. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) What kind of questions? Is it scientific? Dr. Ware: No. Just simple intelligence, that's all. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . an I.Q. test. Dr. Ware: . . . that's all. Call it test, but it's something; we've got nothing better at the moment. Prabhupāda: We think our activities above intelligence. Spiritual. Spiritual. Dr. Ware: That's quite different. Prabhupāda: Because above the mind . . . above the body there is mind; above the mind there is intelligence, and above the intelligence there is soul, and above the soul there is God. So we are talking of relationship between God and the soul. It is above body, mind and intelligence. Dr. Ware: That's what interests me. One has this hierarchical or superior attitude even in the statement you've just made, that things, you know, about more contained which is what I feel is easier. Prabhupāda: Because we take from God there is no mistake. There's no mistake. Otherwise He cannot be God. Dr. Ware: I mean this is just unnecessary. It is just tautological. But since this is in your definition of God, you don't have to go any farther. Prabhupāda: But God means He's above mistake, Dr. Ware: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . above the illusion, above cheating, above imperfection. This is God. Śyāmasundara: There's a central premise that everything is simultaneously one and different. Just like flowers—there are many flowers, roses, but within the flowers there is variety. Mensa Member: But still it raises the danger of another . . . (indistinct) . . . it really does. This is a very . . . (indistinct) . . . you're trying to make, but it's impossible to talk about physics in the language of chemistry. It's impossible. So when . . . Śyāmasundara: So when he says there's a gradation, that we see gradation, that the soul is higher than the body, this is also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Soul is higher than the body, mind and intelligence. Dr. Ware: Yes. But that is only because we've learned, I think, when we were small to look up to higher people . . . Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . on each side of them and in the middle, on the other side, before and after . . . Dr. Ware: This is the . . . you see, unconsciously you grow up with all these sort of prejudices, which are necessary. You've got to have some sort of time scale, you've got to have some sort of measuring scale, and therefore you tend to look up, and therefore you think highly of more important . . . (indistinct) . . . you talk about high position, you don't think of chaps sitting on the fence . . . Śyāmasundara: Inherently you'll find the rose is better than the daisy. Dr. Ware: No. Some people might prefer the daisy. Śyāmasundara: But the qualities are there, inherent in the rose, which are preferable to those of the daisy. Dr. Ware: Why? Tell me why. I mean, you haven't given me any reason for saying it is better. Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: The rose has nice scent. It appears . . . Prabhupāda: . . . beautiful. Śyāmasundara: . . . beautiful. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . be subjective . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: And you see, a lot of people would like a red rose, because that has a symbolism to it. Why have a yellow rose? It must have a sort of subjective reaction. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's got a chromatic wavelength. Prabhupāda: So that is a cause. That means there is a cause. We have to accept the cause. So that cause, we go further till we find out the cause of all causes. Dr. Ware: You see, what worries me, Swami, is that there is two ways of making sure you live, each containing this necessity of eating. Now, some people eat . . . (indistinct) . . . they digest it, they live perfectly healthily. They know nothing about carbohydrates, proteins and fats. They know nothing about saliva. They know nothing about enzymes or digestion, and they live quite satisfactory lives. Other people start worrying about whether they've got the right amount of calories, the right amount of vitamins, whether they're taking enough water with the meal or not. One wonders that if you're starting to worry about that, it means somehow you're less perfect than the person who's able to digest quite happily without the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Well, if you say like that, the majority of living entities, they are eating without this knowledge of enzyme and other things. So if you take votes, the votes are greater. Just like human being, a few human beings are interested in analyzing this enzyme. And the human beings are very small quantity. There are 8,400,000 species of life. They're eating with a natural way, and they're quite healthy. Mensa Member: Knowledge of the process is comparatively important. If you want to enjoy it more you don't have to know about enzymes and proteins, you have to know about the right sort of wine and the . . . Śyāmasundara: Enjoyment is the standard. Dr. Ware: And there, what worries me, I was going a stage further, you do tend to find that people who want to understand about digestion are those whose stomachs are not very good. Prabhupāda: Another thing is . . . just like grass, straw. The cows are eating straw and giving the most vitaminous food, milk, full of vitamin A and D. But if you scientifically say that there is, I mean to say, vitamins in grass and straw, then you eat straw and produce. Vitamins is there. Why it is so? Your analysis of enzyme and vitamin, how you can say milk . . . (break) . . . you'll die. Why this law is there? The cow is producing most vitaminous food, milk, by simply eating dry grass and straw. Dr. Ware: No, with respect, Swami, no. By simply imbibing at the same time bacteria which flourish in its intestines and are necessary for it to be able to metabolize this straw. We couldn't metabolize straw . . . Prabhupāda: But you're lacking that bacteria. You're lacking that bacteria. The bacteria which the cows have, you haven't got. Dr. Ware: We've got them, but we kill them. Mensa Member: . . . another analogy. Dr. Ware: Exactly. This is the trouble. It's unwise . . . if you could accept the concept as a whole, there's no need to try and give an analogy. Mensa Member: I don't accept your, um . . . the point you were making when you began that analogy, I think, was that people that do look for spiritual knowledge, in quotes, um, it would appear there was something wrong with them. Dr. Ware: No, no, not always. I say there are some people who obviously . . . if they have to look for it, they haven't got it. The people who've got it don't need to look for it. Mensa Member: Yeah. Resorting to the accursed thing again, some people go to the doctor that are sick and some people aren't sick, are hypochondriacs. Śyāmasundara: It's just like if someone points out to you, for instance, that this material world is based upon sense gratification and everyone is striving to gratify the impulse of their senses, that's a verbalization of a truth which is not apparent in any other way, or it's very difficult to find out in any other way. So suddenly that knowledge awakens one to a higher desire, to attain something higher. So that is the point of verbalization of these things. If we are silent, how will someone be awakened to that truth, that simply by saying this material world spins upon this principle of material sense gratification. That's a truth that you can easily verbalize. Dr. Ware: Well, I think there's a double difference always with these things between the subject and the object. If, in other words, it's objectively necessary to gratify the senses, if you like. In other words, you've got to have diets and things like that, and you've got to breathe, but you can also get a subjective pleasure out of doing that which is different from just doing it automatically. Sometimes we know when we're busy, we just shovel our food down. We don't really have any gratification out of it. We just ha . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. There are four basic principles that Prabhupāda mentioned—eating, sleeping, mating and defending—which are natural for the animals or to the humans. But man is using his propensity, his conscious propensity, to simply enjoy material nature on a more advanced level: to eat better, to sleep more, to have better sex life and so on. It still boils down to that. Everyone is seeking sense pleasure. Prabhupāda: Such propensities are there in animals. Then what makes the difference between animal and man? Dr. Ware: Animals, as far as I know, don't conduct scientific research. Śyāmasundara: What is the point of scientific research? That's the question. Dr. Ware: Because of this feeling of wanting to know. Mensa Member: I wonder what . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: No, no, they've made the observation. I don't think they have the power to . . . Śyāmasundara: Why do scientists make their analysis, and what are the advancements of science used for? What can man use them for? Dr. Ware: Largely, a Freudian would say, to compensate their feeling of inadequacy, of their being not sufficiently treated with empathy and love when they were young. Śyāmasundara: Objectively, seeing is just to gratify the senses. Dr. Ware: Well, Freud said . . . of course, he's the great chap on gratification, and that's where Jung sensibly said: "Ah, that's not sufficient. You've got to have the spiritual side of life as well." He comprises it. Jung got the advantage of being, you might say, a higher stage, to use the words of the Swami, because he's able to contain the lower things like . . . Prabhupāda: The conclusion comes in this way, that to remain animals, scientific animals, that's all. The propensities are the same, sense gratification, but the man is trying to make it scientific. That means to remain animal but become scientific, that's all—scientific animal. Dr. Ware: But at the same time he's a spiritual animal. It's interesting to find that in this twentieth century, science is rather replacing the spirituality. You know, people in the past gave religion an enormous importance, and science was practically unknown. Now they're going the other way around. Prabhupāda: That scientific spirituality, that is advancement more than the animals. Otherwise, if you simply remain on the . . . (indistinct) . . . eating, sleeping, mating and defending scientifically, you remain animal. But when that scientific research goes to the spiritual thing, that is special prerogative of the human. Śyāmasundara: This replacement by science of religion has proven inadequate also in the twentieth century, because how can it satisfy ultimately the questions? Dr. Ware: In the same way, how can you satisfy a person's lack of emotional content in his job by giving him more money? Half of the trouble starts with the jobs. They have no emotive content now because there's no rapport between them and their boss. They have practically no intellectual interest because they have a routine job in a factory. And you know they are really deprived in this sad way. Mensa Member: Then what worries lots of people about lots of religions is the . . . (indistinct) . . . for example of pointing a finger at the moon and choosing the finger with the moon. Dr. Ware: One of the difficulties, and I think this is true when I was saying simple people, using that in its broader sense, some people cannot get anything at all unless they have a little picture. You know, it helps them; not like the dear old lady who found . . . Prabhupāda: That we give, the picture "Here is God." Śyāmasundara: Just like Christ. He came to speak with a very ignorant class of men. He was forced to speak in parables and stories. *Dr. Ware: Ah, yes. Now parable is better than analogy. An analogy is an intellectual thing, whereas a parable is a human thing. It's got a warmth in it. It's in three dimensions, not a cross*-section. And he was, of course, awfully clever at choosing them. Mensa Member: I don't think your friend Christmas Humphreys will agree with either of those statements. Dr. Ware: Knowing him very well, I don't . . . one would be surprised at . . . (indistinct) . . . he would be perfectly happy to feel that I was disagreeing with him. I think he confuses himself with Kṛṣṇa at times. Mensa Member: Well, is that absolutely . . . (indistinct) . . .? Śyāmasundara: The Buddhist thinks that everyone is God? Prabhupāda: In Buddhist theory there is no acceptance of God. There is simply to diminish, or to nullify, the sense of pains and pleasure. That is called nirvāṇa . Dr. Ware: The atheist is the person who worries most about God. I mean, he really . . . God must exist, but he tries to deny it all. Rather like I had a lecturer at Oxford who wasn't interested in women. He was a misogynist. He talked, you know, against women, and he spent all his time telling you that he wasn't interested in women. He thought about nothing but women and the fact that he wasn't interested in them. His lectures were full of it. It was pathetic. Śyāmasundara: Just like Kaṁsa! Prabhupāda: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Gold and women. Śyāmasundara: Kaṁsa hated Kṛṣṇa, and he wanted to kill Him, but all he could think about was Kṛṣṇa. So somehow or other it boils down that one somehow has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious under some process. Dr. Ware: Even other people, not using that name. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . God consciousness. Dr. Ware: That's what I say Unitarians apparently by having so much of this in their . . . (indistinct) . . . in quite a different way from a different philosophy. And, of course, you begin to feel that they must be very . . . (indistinct) . . . because they were so persecuted. If a person is no real menace to you, you don't have to persecute him. Both Socrates and Christ are perfect examples of that. Prabhupāda: Now we are . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to speak something. Dr. Ware: I think that's been most fascinating, Swami. Very kind of you, indeed. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Dr. Ware: And we would welcome you if you would just comply with our simple requirements. We don't have as one of our requirements the acceptance of anything other than the task of spending, about, at the maximum, an hour and a half doing some simple problems. It's an open invitation. Śyāmasundara: To one of your meetings. Dr. Ware: Oh, no, to the test for the qualification. Śyāmasundara: Oh, a test. They have a test for entry into their Society, and they want to know if you can take this test. Prabhupāda: So why not you come to our Society and we test you? Dr. Ware: We test something different, you see. Prabhupāda: We also test different. Dr. Ware: That's right, yes, quite right. Prabhupāda: As you have process of test, we have also process of test. Dr. Ware: And ours is just as universal. *Prabhupāda: Our process of test is how far he is advanced in God consciousness. That is our test. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ . It is said, yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā (SB 5.18.12). If one has developed God consciousness, all good qualities must develop in them. All good qualities. *Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ . And one who has not developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, he cannot have any good qualities, because his business is mental speculation, mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ . By simply mental speculation, he'll be fixed up in this material world. Dr. Ware: Mental speculation alone is sterile. *Prabhupāda: Mental speculation, mano*-rathena. Ratha means chariot, one who is driving on the chariot of mind, mano-rathena. The chariot of mind will take him . . . will fix him only on material conditions. So long one remains in the material conditions of life, he cannot have any good qualifications. One has to transcend this material platform and come to the spiritual platform. Then his natural good qualities will come out automatically. Dr. Ware: This, of course, is the basis, too, of real . . . *Prabhupāda: For example, for example, our boys, Europeans, American boys, they were addicted with illicit sex life. They were addicted for meat*-eating. They were addicted drinking. They were addicted to gambling. Now they've given up everything. There is no illicit sex in our society. There is no gambling. There is no meat-eating. There is not even smoking, or taking . . . drinking tea. How it is possible? They were addicted to all these things from beginning of their life. Now they have given up. If you take this as good qualities, then they have already developed, besides others. Why? Because due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sometimes in America the authorities, they are surprised. They want to consult us on that, "How you people have given up this (MW - entire) LSD?" They are spending so much money to stop this bad habit. "How it is that your members used to . . . (indistinct) . . .?" Not only LSD, all kinds of intoxications. So if you take it as a good quality, that good quality is developing due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore this is a fact: one who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or good consciousness, he may go on speculating, but he'll never come to the platform of goodness. That is our test. Dr. Ware: That is most impressive, that giving up those things which are really . . . if they were inessentials it would be good to give them up, but since they are harmful, it's even more beneficial. How that can be achieved in the modern world is quite a remarkable feat. Mensa Member: Would you say that you agree with the Swami the . . . some of the bases of religion are essential, are therapeutically useful, valid? Dr. Ware: I think, again, it depends upon the person. I should say to lots of people they are essential, or you might even go farther, as Jung would say, that to everybody they are essential, but they mean something different to different types of people from the very . . . (indistinct) . . . and from the long hair to the very abstract. But the people who lack it do seem to lack. It's rather like they lack a gyroscope. They've got no stability. They just sort of wobble all over the place. Mensa Member: No, they don't. One . . . (indistinct) . . . scientific truth is this works. Dr. Ware: I would like to put my own view, is that I believe very much in the Christian ethics, and I could believe in Kṛṣṇa ethics, or, if I might say. But I could also believe in that without the need to believe in Kṛṣṇa or God. Now whether that's a delusion on my part, and I really do believe deep down inside me, and I don't know . . . Śyāmasundara: But the idea is how to transform that belief into practical action. That's the art. Dr. Ware: But some people need the bridge of the Godhead to achieve it. Other people do it abstractly. Śyāmasundara: Today we went to a service, a Christian service, the first one I've been to in years, and in this Baptist church, we walked in there were eleven old ladies sitting in the pews. And outside I could hear the roar of traffic and people. I began to think how much the Christian Church has lost track or lost pull of this ability to be able to guide people to the practical application of moral and spiritual principles, so much so that no one was interested even to come in . . . *Prabhupāda: One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet regretting that these boys—he saw our students—he appreciated that, "These boys are so much after God, and they're our boys. We could not give them." Actually the same boy was, one year or two years ago, he was not going to church, he had no interest in God consciousness, but now this same boy is mad after God. And he's twenty*-four hours in God consciousness. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty-four hours. How they have become so . . . Mensa Member: The Swami made a good point when I talked to him the other day that some of the American churches are packed. There's a great swing towards religion in America, and they're getting a lot of humbug, you know, which is, just one of those . . . I think I disagree with you that today theology has lost its status with the . . . (indistinct) . . . of science, but there seems to be a swing, in my little world, towards spiritual things. Dr. Ware: Oh, I'm glad to hear that because, as I say, one's been watching the swing the other way. Coming back to your point, the other vital thing, we said that earlier on, that we still don't know, in other words, in order to get spiritual qualities you've got to have silence. Correspondingly, in the modern world we have this neurotic disease, the desire for noise. These people can't even do a job without having a transistor set on. There's something psychopathic about this. Mensa Member: It can be used though, can't it? The Kṛṣṇa people use it, the concept of using the word "Kṛṣṇa" . . . (indistinct) . . . the ears, the most subtle of the senses . . . *Dr. Ware: Yes, but this "boop*-a-doop" noise they have, the language stops you from doing your work properly. Śyāmasundara: A material noise. Dr. Ware: Noise, background noise, wireless . . . *Śyāmasundara: But if a person is at our temple and he can hear noise coming . . . it's always there, twenty*-four hours a day, because that propensity is there in this age. We should be taking advantage of it. Dr. Ware: But if I might say, you're not taking advantage of it now, you're merely going back to what has always been the cream of any form of sensation, and that's music. Plato's time, the old idea of the music of the spheres. Music is the food of love. I mean it's, to my mind it's the most wonderful sound. Śyāmasundara: In Revelations, I don't remember the exact verse, "Strike the . . . (indistinct)" Mensa Member: The only spiritual sensation for many people, really, it's from music. *Śyāmasundara: Silence is defined in Bhagavad*-gītā as speaking about Kṛṣṇa, or hearing Kṛṣṇa's name. That is silence. Dr. Ware: Well, if you're silent you can hear things, but if you're making noise, you know, the message doesn't come through, and if somebody else is making a noise, you've got an excuse for not getting the message. I think a lot of people again are afraid of getting the message. So with the noise they can say: "Of course, I didn't hear it, so you mustn't blame me." Now that sort of cheating, I think, is a very bad one. That's not what I call positive cheating. That cheating yourself which is even more dangerous than . . . if you cheat the other chap, if he's clever enough he can avoid the effect of it, but if you cheat yourself, you know you might try and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps . . . (indistinct) . . . you can't get out of it. Śyāmasundara: I believe that the . . . (indistinct) . . . spread this philosophy as much as possible in this age because it's been lost by so much noise. . . . (indistinct) . . . in some people. Our message is getting through, though. Dr. Ware: The fact that it can be heard sometimes even above the noise . . . Prabhupāda: One noise makes liberation, one noise makes bondage. Noise must be there. Dr. Ware: But we do have in this modern world a neurotic desire for noise and novelty. The two things together, they . . . Śyāmasundara: There again, novelty and noise, they're sense gratification. We want to gratify the senses. Dr. Ware: Well, don't you think it's also possible too, mind you, that you only have to have novelty because you are not being satisfied. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Dr. Ware: In other words, what's happening is you're not satisfied, so you have to have something to do. Śyāmasundara: Yes. The senses can never be gratified, but always the drive is there to gratify them. Dr. Ware: If you go to a good play or see a good film or hear some good music, you feel satisfied and you don't have to flash back next night because you've seen it before. You have a feeling that, you know . . . Śyāmasundara: Even that, a good play or a good music, is not very long lasting. When you come out of the theater you're hungry. When your hunger is satisfied, then you want some sex life. Then you want to drive home fast. There's always something there to agitate the material senses. Dr. Ware: The trouble is, aren't you going to lead yourself into this difficulty: if you are spiritually satisfied, you would sit down and do nothing. And if everybody were doing that, we should be rather back to where we started rather than have enough food or music or transport. Prabhupāda: That is for the voidist, not for the spiritualist. The spiritual life there is enough activities for even scientists. That they do not know. They mean spiritual life mean void. That is negation of the present activities only, negative idea. But actually, when you stop material activities your real activity begins. That is spiritual life. The spirit, spirit soul, is active. You cannot stop it. You cannot stop it. Now it is acting through these coverings of material, matter, therefore it is imperfect activities. But if the activity is uncovered by material things, that is real activity. Mensa Member: But aren't desires biological in cause? Dr. Ware: They're necessary. Mensa Member: Yes, but they're biologically necessary rather than spiritually necessary. Dr. Ware: Well, may I say, let's go farther, that when you say biologically necessary, is it necessary for you to be alive? What scientific . . . Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has told us that even in the spiritual world there is desire to have the senses enjoy. Isn't that so? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Ware: But I think you need . . . I agree, I would say you need both. I want spiritual life, material life. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . spiritual thing, I mean, isn't it like people talking about China or New York . . . (indistinct) . . . about it, in fact it might even be a little . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Well, I think to each person his picture is different, too. Śyāmasundara: The idea there is that in spiritual activity everything is seen in relationship to God, and if you serve God with your every activity . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example, just like this finger is part and parcel of body. So long it is attached with the body it has got activities. You cut it from my body, there's no activity. Dr. Ware: Yes, but you've still got a body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Ware: You've still got a body, and you've still got some other fingers left. Prabhupāda: No, you can call it a finger, but it will not act as finger; it will act . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: No, but the others will. I don't see the need for your analogy. Śyāmasundara: The God is there and we are His servants. Prabhupāda: If we are part and parcel of God, then we must be active in serving God. That is my analogy. Dr. Ware: But I don't see the need for analogy. That statement is sufficient. Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? There must be a need. If you think, if you know that you're part and parcel of God, then you must act for God. Dr. Ware: You see, I would go the other way round and say that as long as I know that God is part and parcel . . . *Prabhupāda: You cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . God is the spirit and you are spirit. Therefore you have to take lessons from God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated there, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhuta (BG 15.7) that, "These living entities they are My part and parcels." So, because part and parcel of God, therefore the part and parcel must be active on account of God. That is real life. Why stop activity? That is real life. Dr. Ware: I fear, Swami, if I may say so, without disrespect, that in some ways you're preaching to the converted, and you only make it more muddled to me by giving analogies. Don't you feel that at times? Mensa Member: Yeah, I think the Swami's used to . . . probably used to talking to people that need this . . . Śyāmasundara: Never mind the method. Prabhupāda: When there is a truth spoken by God that, "Living entities are My part and parcel, mamaiva ," why shall I not give the analogy? How do part and parcel acts? I must give analogy. Otherwise how they can understand? Dr. Ware: It's like some people . . . Prabhupāda: For understanding, analogy must be there. Analogy is created for understanding. Dr. Ware: But not in the . . . (indistinct) . . . example. A lot of people try and give an analogy to explain entropy. Now, of course . . . *Prabhupāda: Now I do not know what other people give analogy, but my business is that we take it from Bhagavad*-gītā that living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore, just like this part and parcel of my body is active in relationship with this body, but if it is cut off from the body, it is no more active. Similarly, those who are not active in rendering service to God, they're as dead as this finger cut off from the body. So they have to be awakened to that consciousness. Just like a tree, you cut it, it has no consciousness to protest. But even an ant, a small ant, because it has developed consciousness, you try to kill it, it will protest. Therefore the more consciousness you develop, you become active. That is nature's law. That is nature's law. Developed consciousness does not mean to become dead. Dr. Ware: This is what I've said earlier on, that the whole of the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore if one comes to God consciousness, you becomes more active. Dr. Ware: The whole evolution, I think I may have said it before you came in, the whole evolution to the human mind is to become more and more in conscious control. Prabhupāda: So mind, mind, activities of mind, activities of intelligence and activities of spirit, the spiritual activities more greater than the mind's mental activities. *Śyāmasundara: The other day we were discussing Socrates. And Socrates' method was to bring the self under control by inspecting oneself, "Know thyself," and thereby be able to lead a moral life with self*-respect and self-control. But Prabhupāda was saying that this is not an ordinary thing. Not many men can achieve this rational control. So by simply cultivating spirit, nourishing spiritual life, any man can control his senses. Prabhupāda: Just like, somebody, there is a child, a child is active, but his frivolous activities, or mischievous activities, have to stop when he's active in taking education. The same child, his energy for becoming active is transferred for taking education. He's no more acting mischievously, breaking this, doing this, doing that. *The activity is there. Now that is purified. Similarly, spiritual life means the spiritual activity, that is purified activity. These boys, they have given up drinking, meat*-eating. That does not mean they stop eating. They're eating better things. Therefore they have given up the nonsense eating. So that is spiritual life. Spiritual life means activity purified. Śyāmasundara: Rationally, I was thought to be intelligent. I went to college, got so many degrees, but I could not in the least control my senses and control my mind, even though I tried. I studied philosophy so hard. But by simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and coming to the platform of service for God, all my activities became dovetailed in one direction so that the other things were automatically brought under control as a result. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). The exact word is there, that if one gets good engagement, he can gives up bad engagement. But he cannot make it inactive. That is not possible, because soul is active. It is living. How he can make it inactive? That is not possible. Nirvāṇa means stop nonsense, but take to spiritual life. That is next, athāto brahma jijñāsā. Nirvāṇa does not mean to stop activities; to stop nonsense activities. Come to the real activity. Dr. Ware: Well aṇiman , the word many people use for the soul, also means of course, life . . . (indistinct) . . . being animate. The two are synonymous. Śyāmasundara: Just like you were saying a while ago that if you were in God consciousness, you need not wear a robe. That's also our philosophy. It's very practical. But your consciousness would be always serving Kṛṣṇa, always serving God, in whatever status of life. It isn't necessary to put on a robe first and then God consciousness. Dr. Ware: But it helps some people. Mensa Member: The soul is a very interesting concept, the soul as well, the fact that the soul is quantifiable, that it exists in a smaller part in the larger animals, and a higher part in a higher animals. Śyāmasundara: No. It's the same size in all entities. Mensa Member: Oh, it is, is it? But when we reach a point when we don't know whether there are living things or not, you know, the amino acids, and things like that or . . . Dr. Ware: Well, I would take up that straight away, fundamentally, that it's perfectly correct to say it's the same size every . . . (indistinct) . . . has no size. Prabhupāda: No. It has size. We cannot measure it. Dr. Ware: That's what I mean. Therefore the word "size" is a misconception. Prabhupāda: But that is not a scientific statement. Because you have no measuring instrument you cannot say it has no size. Dr. Ware: Now, if what you say it has not got three dimension, but when we talk about size . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, three dimension. It is said, it is estimated that ten . . . one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Dr. Ware: (laughs) We could do better than that with a micron. Prabhupāda: Then find out the soul, if you have got instrument. Mensa Member: How many angels on the end of a pin? Dr. Ware: In fact this is coming back to that . . . the analogy again. Mensa Member: But the whole thing is so . . . (indistinct) . . . about this . . . (indistinct) . . . putting in Kṛṣṇa instead of Christ. Dr. Ware: But the whole business, if you try to explain . . . Prabhupāda: In geometry they say the point has no length nor breadth. But that is not fact. The point has length and breadth, but you cannot measure it. Dr. Ware: Ah, but the mathematician would say that that isn't . . . the definition of a point is something that has no breadth or depth, but his purpose is working out his philosophy. Mensa Member: (indistinct) . . . he'd say something entirely different. They'd say that the absolute point . . . Prabhupāda: But if you magnify the point, you'll find there is . . . Dr. Ware: But, coming back to . . . Prabhupāda: It is a question of vision. With your present imperfect vision you do not see. When you take a magnifying glass you see, "Oh, there is length and breadth." Dr. Ware: Ah, but that brings you, Swami, straight away into the problem of the infinite regress. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be . . . Dr. Ware: It becomes smaller and smaller. But you know, you might just as well stop at the beginning as start at the end. Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the smallest of the smallest." Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Veda . Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān ( Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). God is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. Dr. Ware: You're using materialist words, Swami. You're using materialist words, "greater" and "smaller." Prabhupāda: What you meant spiritual? Dr. Ware: No, but I say you are using materialist words to describe them. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by spiritual? No speaking? Dr. Ware: What I say is . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: If I say greater and smaller in this way, and you say this is material, then what is a spiritual expression of this? Can you give me? That means stop, stop talking? Dr. Ware: You don't need it . . . Prabhupāda: . . . you have to. This is not material. When you speak in spiritual connection, this is spiritual. Dr. Ware: You'd have to invent a new language, really. Prabhupāda: No. Why invent? The same language. The same language. Dr. Ware: Well you won't get very far in any form of philosophy in . . . (indistinct) . . . language. Mensa Member: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: But the consciousness in which something is done denotes it. For instance, I could be sweeping the street. Someone would think, "Ah, I'm just a material street sweeper." But if I'm doing it for Kṛṣṇa, it's a transcendental activity, it's a spiritual activity, not a material activity. Dr. Ware: Ah, yes, but I mean, then you have a sort of . . . if somebody else who's sweeping faster and better, you say that he's greater spiritually even if he's doing it . . . Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: No, the purpose must be spiritual. The purpose must be for Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: So if we're speaking about Kṛṣṇa, then our words become spiritual. Dr. Ware: Yes, but I think if you're talking about spiritual things, you mustn't try and quantify it. *Prabhupāda: Spiritual means it has no material qualification. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate ( Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). Dr. Ware: You can't measure the beauty of a rose with a ruler. Śyāmasundara: But you can say it's like this, it's like that. You have to be able to describe it somehow. Prabhupāda: Actually, in higher sense there is nothing material, because everything is emanating from God, therefore everything is spiritual. Dr. Ware: Well, that's true, but the electron, as far as you can say, may be spiritual. Prabhupāda: There is no distinction in higher status, because we say that everything that we see, that is manifestation of God's energy. Dr. Ware: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Energy. So in that sense, if it is God's energy there is nothing material. It is material when we forget God. That is material. Dr. Ware: Well, I would have said . . . but really, rather going back to the analogy of the light. If there's no light there, you can't see whether there's anything there or not. Directly you have the light it enables you to see it. But the things exist independent of whether the light was there all along. Prabhupāda: The light is . . . light is in relationship with fire. So light is not different from the fire. Unless there is fire there is no light, there is no heat. So as soon as you feel heat or see light, the fire is there. In higher sense, those who can realize, immediately realize that there is fire. Just like here there's light. Immediately you can understand there is fire, there is electricity. So it is a question of realization. In the higher realization there is nothing matter; everything is spiritual. Simply when you forget God, that is material. That is material. Śyāmasundara: By using this analogy he's proving that there's a contingency. There's a . . . that wherever there's heat and wherever there's light there must be fire. Dr. Ware: With respect, no, because you can have an infrared thing which is not fire. Śyāmasundara: The original source is fire. Dr. Ware: Or ultraviolet. No. Prabhupāda: How can you explain light without fire? Dr. Ware: Ultraviolet light doesn't have a fire. Prabhupāda: There is sun, ultraviolet rays of the sun. Śyāmasundara: How can you produce ultraviolet light except with electrical apparatus, electricity? Prabhupāda: Light and heat, you cannot think of without fire. Mensa Member: Fluorescence, certain chemicals. Śyāmasundara: The origin is . . . Dr. Ware: You're making . . . Prabhupāda: There is no light, no heat without fire. That's a fact. Mensa Member: Everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . I think. Dr. Ware: Yeah, you see, that's the trouble. You can say really that there's no light or heat without an electrical movement. That's as far as you need. You don't need to go any farther. Mensa Member: No, the point you were making is that the absolute source of everything is the sun. Was that the . . .? Prabhupāda: That is heat. That is fire. Mensa Member: Even if it's not there now, it was there a thousand years ago. Śyāmasundara: It's gone through about the different transformations from its original source. Dr. Ware: Well, this is a form of scientific atavism. It's rather outmoded with the usual concepts of long ago. But one's got beyond that now. Śyāmasundara: No, it then takes . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) So we have to go down or not. So we can go down. Dr. Ware: Most interesting . . . (indistinct) Mensa Member: Yes, but it all . . . (indistinct) . . . great argument. Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall talk more when we meet next. Dr. Ware: Well, I've enjoyed it very much, and it was very kind of you. Where are you going on Wednesday? Where are you going? Prabhupāda: I'm going to Mombasa. Dr. Ware: Really. One of my greatest pleasures was to be able to entertain the Dalai Lama's secretary in the luncheon hall in Lincoln's Inn just near here. Śyāmasundara: We went walking there one morning, Lincoln's Inn. Mensa Member: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Ware: Yes. I've always wanted to go there. We've got four Tibetans over, studying . . . (indistinct) . . . part of the college estate of Hampstead. And I've always liked the idea of their going up into those wonderful mountains and . . . Although you may say, you know, one mustn't overvalue material things, as far as their diet is concerned, they must be very much like you followers. You know, they have . . . because they have . . . (indistinct) . . . they have nothing wrong with their gums or their teeth. It must be about the only place in the world . . . Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has all his teeth, too. He is nearly eighty. Prabhupāda: Yes. I've got my natural teeth. Śyāmasundara: Perfect diet. Mensa Member: Thank you for sparing this time and . . . Dr. Ware: Such short notice, I didn't realize . . . it was such a pleasure, and I was so glad that you were able to fit it in before you go. Śyāmasundara: He's going to speak now down in the temple. If you can stay, listen more. Dr. Ware: Well, I don't know. I should imagine the crowd is so great. Śyāmasundara: (chuckles) Well, you can sit in front. Dr. Ware: We will see as we go down, I think . . . I must take my spiritual . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 22, 1971, Nairobi *Prabhupāda: Somewhere in the world somebody will say it is half*-past twelve, somebody will say half-past seven, somebody will say . . . so many, twenty-four hours. So the sun is the same one, but in one place they will say it is half-past six, in another place it is half-past seven. How it is going on? In our calculation this sun, as you have seen, this half-past five sun, you cannot make it half-past eight. But it is half-past eight also . . . Guest: Elsewhere. Prabhupāda: . . . at the same time. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if it is possible for an ordinary material thing like that, why it is not possible God, the Absolute, to become a child and a youth at the same time, simultaneously? Why is it not possible? Your question is how God became child. So my answer is God is child and youth at the same time. That is God . . . (indistinct) Guest: And I agree God is in children and in . . . Prabhupāda: Not in children. God is child Himself and youth Himself at the same time. It is not that . . . I am not saying that sun is revealed this time. Sun is there in the sky. But still the times are different. Guest (2): That means that God can reveal Himself in many different forms. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Vedas : advaitam. Advaita means one. Dvaita means dual. But He is advaita . He is one. Acyuta , infallible. Advaitam acyutam. Anādi : He has no beginning. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Still He has got millions of forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ. Purāṇa means the oldest. Because everything has come from God, then God must be oldest. *Just like you have come from your father, your father must be older than you, your grandfather must be older than him. Similarly, if God is the original person, then He must be the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ. Purāṇa , the oldest. Nava-yauvanaṁ ca : and at the same time He is youthful. Just like in Kṛṣṇa book, you see. He is fully youth, although He is the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam . Guest: Which is . . . who is Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . .? Who is Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): Oh, the one in blue. And the other one? Prabhupāda: Rādhārani—His consort. Consort. Guest (2): Consort. Prabhupāda: His pleasure potency. Guest: So you think Kṛṣṇa is a living God? Prabhupāda: God is always living. Guest: He is in this world, not in another special place? Prabhupāda: In another place also. That is God. Guest: Another place also? Prabhupāda: Just like you are sitting. You are not in your office, not your home, but God can be here and everywhere. That is God. Just like the sun is here, and ten thousand miles away you ask somebody, he will say: "Yes, the sun is here." How it is possible? But it is fact. It is shining here, and the Western countries in Europe you ask, "Where is the sun?" they will say: "Yes, here." How it is possible? At noontime in your country, ask anyone five thousand miles away, ten thousand miles away, like that, "Where is sun?" And they will say: "It is on my head." How it is possible? So if it is possible for a material thing, how much it is greatly possible for God. He is the Supreme. That is knowledge. Guest: Is God having a material construction? Prabhupāda: No. That is the difference. Material world you have got material construction. You cannot be simultaneously here and in your office. Guest: So the material construction . . . I mean is my body is materially constructed. That is what I am referring to. And I was asking whether God . . . Prabhupāda: God's body is not materially constructed. Your present body is materially constructed. Therefore I say that you are covered by the material body; *but you are not material. These things are explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. Guest: But if Kṛṣṇa is God, how it is that His humans have a material construction of the body? *Prabhupāda: Just to make your seeing possible. Just like, here is God—Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. He is God, but because we cannot see God, He has kindly appeared just suitable for my seeing. That is His mercy. Guest: And is He actual to be photographed? Prabhupāda: Why not? Guest: Because He is photographed here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And not only that. Here, I realized . . . *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. God can appear in different places, because He is omnipotent, all*-powerful. Because you cannot see God with your eyes; therefore He appears before you in such a form that you can see Him. Just like the whole world, you cannot see some . . . (indistinct) . . . if there is a map you can see here is London, here is Germany, here is river. You can see the river in the map. The map is made in such a way that it is possible to see the whole world on your hand. Is it not? *Then God cannot make Himself easily accessible to you by His mercy? Then what is His all*-merciful? If He appears to be visible by you, it can be fault on the part of God? That is . . . (indistinct) . . . He appears in a form so that you can see, you can render your service. God is everywhere; that's all right. But unless He appears before you in a form, how you can render your service? So just like post office box, mailbox. So it is post office? The mailbox, you put your letter on the street. Guest (2): A part of post office. All post office property. Prabhupāda: No, it is post office, practically. Because you are putting your letter there, it is going to the destination. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, if the post office gives you some facility to become a small post office, so why God is unable to become small so that you may render your service? Why you say that He cannot? That is God is under your law, that He cannot. If you say: "Ah, here is a small box; it cannot be post office. Post office is very big," is that very good argument? So if it is possible how the post office, why it is not possible for God to become just in the form you can handle? It is God's mercy, but He accepts everything what you serve. This is called omnipotency. *Bhagavad*-gītā describes. He says that, "I have got My hands everywhere. I have got My eyes everywhere. I have got My legs everywhere." Simply you have to catch where is God's hand, where is God's legs. Just like electricity is everywhere. The electrical appliance has captured the electricity. Similarly, God is everywhere; simply you have to know the art how to catch His legs, His legs and hands. Guest: As if you have just come to the . . . at least we are thinking something about God. Had we not tried ourselves, we would have not been here. *Prabhupāda: So you try to understand there is a big science of God, bhagavat*-jñāna , bhagavat tattva . That is explained preliminarily in Bhagavad-gītā . You try to understand. You'll understand what is God. Śyāmasundara: What is the relationship of Jesus Christ? Prabhupāda: That is different. Jesus is the son of God. He says, "I am son of God." So we accept him as son of God. Guest: It now appears that we are going to concentrate on serious studies. And we have misunderstood Kṛṣṇa before. Not now. Now we have accept Kṛṣṇa as God Himself. Particularly . . . (indistinct) . . . and myself, I did not understand Kṛṣṇa as God before. I took Him just as the Christians take Jesus in the Christian religion. So I took Kṛṣṇa as, well, something like the . . . (indistinct) . . . as the Christians, in the Hindu religion. Now . . . this means now we are going to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa Himself, and then will that also carry you the all knowledge of the Hinduism and all these things? State religion? Prabhupāda: Well, our religion is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—to understand Kṛṣṇa. And to understand Kṛṣṇa means to understand everything. In course of understanding Kṛṣṇa, you will understand everything. Guest: And does it mean that I have to understand, say, all about other, say, say like the Śiva or the Durgā, and all these . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you understand Kṛṣṇa . . . just like if you understand what is milk, you can understand what is milk products. Lord Śiva is said in the Vedic language, just like curd. Guest: Curd. Prabhupāda: Curd, yogurt. What is this yogurt? It is milk. Is it not? Is it not? Similarly, the description of Lord Śiva is there in the Vedic literature: Kṣīraṁ means milk. As it is combined with some sour chemical it becomes curd— dadhi . Dadhi , yogurt. It has no other source. Similarly, when Lord, the Supreme Lord, generates this material world, He is called Lord Śiva. Therefore just like yogurt is milk, but milk is not yogurt, similarly Lord Śiva is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa is not Śiva. Or Kṛṣṇa is Lord Śiva, but Śiva is not Kṛṣṇa. You can understand easily also, just like your body is your father's body, but you are not your father's body. So you will understand all these things. If you try to understand Kṛṣṇa only, then you will become fully aware of everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Does the word Kṛṣṇa got particular meaning, the word Kṛṣṇa ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. All-attractive. When one becomes attractive . . . have you got any idea what are the qualification of attraction? Now, suppose you are president. If president comes here, everyone will stand up—attraction. Why? What is the qualification? Guest: Well, it goes from . . . sort of a . . . (indistinct) . . . called greatness. Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got some great power within the state. Therefore power is one of the qualification of attraction. Śyāmasundara: He is famous. Prabhupāda: He is famous. That is quality of attraction. If he is not beautiful . . . but God is beautifuller; therefore there is attraction. A president may be president in his country, but he'll never be a wise man. But God is wise. God is fully wise, God is fully beautiful, God is fully strong, God is fully rich, God is fully renounced. This is God's creation, but you cannot see God personally here throughout the whole universe. *How . . . (indistinct) . . . so He has created . . . we are after a little more piece of land and fight, and God has created so many planetary systems, and He doesn't care for it. Just see how much renunciation. If I create a small house like this, I become so much attached that I can sacrifice my whole life for this. But God has created the whole universe— ananta*-koṭi , innumerable universes—and He has no attachment for them. That is called renunciation. *So who can be more than God a renounced person? Who can be richer person? Who can be powerful person? Asamordhva . Another name of God is Asamordhva—nobody is equal to Him, nobody is greater than Him. That is called asamordhva—ūrdhva means greater, asama means equal . . . sama . Sama means equal. Sama means negative, none. Asama , "non*-equal." Amordhva , not for them. Everyone is under Him. It may be Lord Śiva, it may be Lord Brahmā, it may be Lord Viṣṇu even—everyone is under Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā : *You'll find in this Bhagavad*-gītā : mattaḥ —"above Me"; *para*-taram —"greater." Mattah-parataram; na anyat —"nothing else." Nothing else is greater or equal to Kṛṣṇa. Then how Lord Śiva can be equal to Kṛṣṇa? Nobody can be equal to Kṛṣṇa. That is God: nobody is equal to Him, and nobody is greater than Him. "God is great" means that nobody is greater than Him. So you have to find out who is that person who is greater than everyone. And that is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Paramaḥ means supreme; īśvaraḥ means controller. You are also controller. You are in your office, you are controlling your assistants, some clerk. Is it not? So you are controller, every one of us, controller. But we are not absolute controller. I am controller, but I have got another controller over me. In this way go on studying: controller, controller, controller, controller, and you come to the Supreme Controller—that is God. He controls everyone, but nobody controls Him. That is God. Guest: And is this the only time that the Kṛṣṇa has revealed Himself to man? I mean, from our present books we know when Kṛṣṇa was born, and so we know that God as Kṛṣṇa revealed Himself to man. Was that the only time, or has He ever revealed Himself before? Prabhupāda: Before. Many, many times. Guest: And after? Prabhupāda: After also. Just like the sunrise was many, many times before my birth, and it will continue to rise after my death. Guest: And after this? *Prabhupāda: I am simply a small fragment in this creative world world. What is my identity, say for fifty years, sixty years, hundred years? But we get from the history twenty thousand years ago, at the time of sunrise such*-and-such things happened. So sun was rising twenty thousand years before my birth, so similarly the sun will continue to set or rise twenty thousand years after also. So God appears like that. He has got a particular time to appear in this universe. That is also stated in the śāstras : *In Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find. *So everything is there in śāstra . You have simply to know it. That's all. Nothing is to be concocted or manufactured. Everything is there. All answers are there. Simply you have to find out. You have to make your questions, and you will find your answers in the Bhagavad-gītā . Just Kṛṣṇa says, in the First Chapter you'll find, when Krsna says to Arjuna that, "I spoke this philosophy to sun*-god some millions of years ago," so Arjuna inquired from Kṛṣṇa, "Kṛṣṇa, You are my friend. You were born; *You are contemporary. How is that? How can I believe that You spoke to sun*-god millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered, "Both you and Me took birth many, many times, but you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." That is Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say what you were in your previous birth. That is living entity. But Kṛṣṇa can say, many millions of His births or appearances before, what He was doing, exactly at what time. That is Krsna. Guest: And how old was Kṛṣṇa, say, when He died? *Prabhupāda: He died at the . . . not died. Nobody dies. You also do not die. Nobody dies. So He left this world at the age of hundred and twenty*-five years. Guest: Did He have any family? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And was He . . . was it correct that God could have family attachments in this world? Prabhupāda: What is that? Śyāmasundara: Is it correct that God should have family attachments in this world? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why God should be bereft of His family attachments? Guest: Well, taking into consideration that we are all His children, was it necessary for Himself to have, say, a particular family as we are having our families? Because we are human beings, and He Himself is God. *Prabhupāda: He is playing the part of a human being. You should remember that. He is not human being, but a foolish man takes Him as a human being. I have already told you that God appears in a form so that we can transact with Him—we can talk with Him, we can mix with Him. Unfortunately, as soon as He does so, I take Him as one of us. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). Mūḍhā means rascals, asses. "They deride upon Me because I play with them as human being." "Without knowing the background of My past . . ." When we accept Kṛṣṇa as one of us, then we become mūḍhā , rascal, because we have no full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. How we can have full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa? But by His causeless mercy He comes before us just like ordinary human being, but at the same time He keeps His position as God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was amongst the human society, He kept His position as God, but He played as a human being. Just like when He was a boy of seven years old He lifted the hill with the little finger of His left hand, Govardhana Hill. Guest (2): Still He is there. Still He is there, with His left finger, holding up like this. Prabhupāda: Still. So although He was playing as a human child, He kept His godly power intact. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . could afford just like a forest. When we go there, still you know some ladies are putting red marks here. When they go on the hill, just they put like this red mark even now, today. Even today, if you go to India you will find that place . . . (indistinct) . . . is there in the forest. *Prabhupāda: So God, although appears before us as a human being, we should not . . . those who are in the knowledge of God, they will know that He is playing as human being, but He is God—by His action, by His education, by His knowledge, by His beauty, by His richness, by His everything. Just like the Bhagavad*-gītā spoken by Kṛṣṇa. This book Bhagavad-gītā is read not by the Hindus or Indians but all over the world, very seriously, because it is the knowledge given by God, and the people are interested. Guest (2): (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, but we have to study both paths . . . (indistinct) . . . just like God comes before us as a human being, but He is not a human being. He is God. And when necessary He shows His godly form. Guest: What is the difference between the . . . you know, it's now coming to picture, or it is just beginning to picture to me that God is being divided by mankind in one way or another. There are denominations combining God as one in three . . . the Trinity, they call it? Prabhupāda: The God . . . the humankind is dividing amongst themselves. Guest: They are dividing God . . . Prabhupāda: But why the human being is dividing amongst themselves? "You are African, I am Indian, he is American, he is this . . ." Why they are divided? Why they are dividing this humankind? Why don't you answer this? The human society, why they are dividing the humankind, that, "Here is Asians," "They are Africans," "They are Europeans"? Why they are dividing? Guest: Well, they are divide partly . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somehow or the other they are dividing. Is it not? Some way or other they are dividing. Guest: They are dividing. *Prabhupāda: So that is their business. They are . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore they divide God. (laughter) Therefore when one does not divide: paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). When they become without any division, that is knowledge. That is real knowledge. Guest: Is Kṛṣṇa the very, very, very God? The very, very, very God? Prabhupāda: First of all your answer is why God is divided. Try to understand. That a human being, his . . . (indistinct) . . . is to divide; therefore he has divided God. God is not divided. Guest: I have understood . . . (indistinct) . . . is Kṛṣṇa the very, very God human beings believe in? Be he a believer or not, but he knows that is one very, very God, living God? Prabhupāda: Who knows that there is a God? Who knows? Guest: Man. Prabhupāda: Man. Yes. So there is a God. That's nice. There must be God. Just like we are sitting in this room, we know this room has a proprietor, this house has a proprietor. We are in Africa we know that this Africa is the property of the African people. So there is a president. Similarly, this whole universe, why there is not a president and proprietor? What is the difficulty to understand? It is simply bigger. Just like this neighborhood is bigger than this room, and this your Nairobi city is bigger than this neighborhood, and the country is bigger than Nairobi. Similarly bigger, bigger, bigger, but in each and every this identity, there is a person, proprietor. So why not of this big, gigantic universe there is a proprietor? Why not? How can you deny it, there is God? You cannot know Him . . . I am a foreigner, I have come to your country. I do not know what is your president, but I know there must be a president or a king. Similarly, we may not know who is the proprietor of this universe—there must be a proprietor. That is to be concluded. There must be. That is God consciousness. It is not necessary that I must be acquainted with the president of Kenya, but I must know that there is a president. Similarly, it is not necessary that you have to meet God, but by your logical conclusion you must know that there is God. Now if you become fortunate, then you can know Him and see Him personally. And if I get the facility, I can see your president and talk with him personally, although ordinarily it is not possible; it requires some process—to go to his secretary, write him letter, I have to wait for the time. But it is not impossible. Similarly, God is there. You can see Him. You can talk with Him. But you have to take the process. That process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Therefore the most popular thing, idea, was . . . or, my question was based on how God came to have children, and He's the creator? Or is it not believed that we were created by God? Prabhupāda: But wherefrom this belief comes, first of all? Guest: Well, it is a very, indeed, as when one comes to fail . . . (indistinct) . . . but where we came from as human beings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There must be a source . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the idea. That is explained in Vedānta*-sūtra . When you enquire about Brahma, atātho brahma-jijñāsā —when a person becomes inquisitive to understand what is the Absolute Truth—the answer is immediately janmādy asya yataḥ : the Absolute Truth is that from which everything is emanating. So the Absolute Truth is the father of everything. So that is natural conclusion, that just like my existence at the present moment is due to my father; my father has created. So my father's existed, his father did. So go on researching: you will find the Supreme Person. That is God. Guest: There must be somebody in the beginning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how it is possible? Guest: But it is difficult to know when was the beginning. Prabhupāda: That we do not require. Guest: But as a human being . . . *Prabhupāda: Just like you know surely that you had a grandfather, a great*-grandfather, but you do not require to know when your great-grandfather was born. There is no need. But it is a fact that because you are, because your father is, because your grandfather is, there must be a great-grandfather. There is no need of "When my great-grandfather was born?" You need not waste your time in that way. Guest: But we know when Kṛṣṇa was born? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is born every day, everywhere. That I already explained. Just like the sun, the sunset and sunrise is going on every minute. Guest: Are His sons living still in the world still—children He left here? Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: (indistinct) . . . offspring now? Prabhupāda: Do not say that God is dead. God disappears. Śyāmasundara: He is asking if . . . are His descendants still on this planet? Prabhupāda: Yes, we are all descendants; we are all sons of God. Guest: Are we the offsprings of the . . . of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Originally, as spiritual sparks, we are part and parcel of God. That part and parcel of God, a small spark of spirit, is changing bodies. Therefore on the change of body we are making history. Born in, 1870, but died in 1907. But the spiritual spark is changing from body to body, as you have changed already in so many bodies. You were a little body like this. So where is that body? That body is not existing, but you had this body. That you can experience. You had a boy's body, playing very nicely. You can remember. But where is that boy's body? So from childhood you got a boyhood body, then you got a youthhood body; you will get an old body. The body is changing every moment. That is death—birth and death. Similarly, when this body will be finished it is called death. But this body is finished, but you take another body. Just like you have already taken from babyhood body to childhood body, childhood body to boyhood body. Similarly, when this body is finished, you take another body. That is transmigration of the soul. *So the soul is the same. By changing body we are creating the so*-called history: 1857 and 1907 and so on, so on, so on. This is a bodily history. Therefore, because Kṛṣṇa has got no material body, therefore He is eternal. He has no past, present and future. Guest: Swāmījī, if he says that way, that we are the children of the earth . . . (indistinct) . . . which is from Kṛṣṇa, then the world at present must be a different one. That means there might not be America, Africa, India, or anything like that. It will be one place, and then . . . *Prabhupāda: Actually this is our creation. This earth, earthly planet, is one. Actually, when Kṛṣṇa was here, even up to five thousand years ago, the whole world was called, that is known as Bharata*-varṣa, even from historical point of view. And it was being ruled by one king, from Hastināpura—five thousand years ago. Gradually the world has separated. Guest: How it is possible that Africans, Americans and Indians, they are children of the same God, or same . . .? Prabhupāda: It is our common home. Kṛṣṇa consciousness will teach us this, that this world is one home for the human beings on this planet. We are all God's children. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. But we have divided. But at that time there will be no necessity of passport or immigration and citizenship. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Simply you have to come to that knowledge . . . (indistinct) Just like India, as it is twenty years ago, there was no Partition. How the Partition has come into existence? Divided. Similarly, the whole world was one; gradually it has divided—for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If we know Kṛṣṇa, if you know that this planet is Kṛṣṇa's, we are all Kṛṣṇa's children, the animals are also Kṛṣṇa's children, then if you want something to eat . . . At the cost of its father the animal is living on the grass. So I have no right to kill him. He is my brother. He is living by God's grace. God has given some food—God has given him grass. God has given you grain. The animal does not take the grain, he takes the skin only. God has ordered in that way, that "Here is grain. You take the grain and you let the animal take the skin. And live peacefully." Why you are going to eat the animals? This is God consciousness. *And because we are not in God consciousness, clear, therefore we are thinking, "The animals are meant for my eating." And the animal is thinking in another way. I am thinking "Indian," and you are thinking "African"—because there is no God consciousness. And as soon as we come to God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : At that time you can see all living entities are parts and parcel of God, you are God's . . . Godbrothers. *That is the position at the stage of brahma*-bhūtaḥ stage, when you understand yourself, what you are. When you understand that you are not African, when I understand I am not Indian, when I understand that I am not this body, I am not this mind, I am pure soul, then that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Because the spiritual spark is brahma . *Now our concept of life is this body, material concept of life, jīva*-bhūta : I have become this African, I have become Indian, or I have become this dog, I have become this cat, I have become this king. Like that. This is jīva-bhūta . Just like you have got white shirt, you have got black coat, he has got blue coat and so on. But we are not concerned with the coats and shirt. We are concerned with as human being, as spirit soul. That is perfect stage . . . that is pure stage. When one is devoid of all designations . . . these are all designations—"I am African," "I am Indian," "I am European," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are all designations. So when we become free from all designations, then we are pure, and in that pure state we can understand what is God. So God is pure, and when you become pure you can understand what is God. So we have to adopt this purificatory method. That is all. Then you will come to that stage. Guest: And "Kṛṣṇa" is another name . . . can one translate the word "Kṛṣṇa" with another name of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It can be. God has many qualities. God is full of all qualities, so you select one quality, and you name God in that way. Kṛṣṇa is all*-perfect because He comprehends all ideas, all at once. Therefore this is the perfect name of God. Just like God is called Govardhana-dhārī. Because He has the quality to lift the Govardhana Hill, He is called Govardhana-dhārī. God is called Nandanandana—the son of Mahārāja Nanda. So what is that reason? The reason is that He appeared as son of Nanda Mahārāja, therefore He is called Nandanandana. So all the names of God, they are defined according to His qualities. But He has got all the qualities. So any name which is indicating to the quality of God, that is God's name. But this name "Kṛṣṇa" is prime, because it includes all the qualities. Therefore "Kṛṣṇa" is the original name. Suppose you name one God's name. Have you got any idea of God's name? Do you know any name of God? Guest: Mungu. Prabhupāda: Mungu. What is the meaning of this Mungu? Guest: "God." *Prabhupāda: God is addressed Mungu Just like Kṛṣṇa name has meaning—all*-attractive. So what is this word meaning of Mungu? Brahmānanda: Literal meaning. Prabhupāda: Literal meaning. Guest: Literal meaning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: When there is Mungu, that means the almighty God. Prabhupāda: That's it. So because God has got all power, therefore you call Mungu. This is God's name. That is all right. God has all power. He is almighty, all power. Therefore if Mungu means "almighty," then it is God's name. Devotee: Jaya . Guest: Now you say we don't die, we go . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't die is what you are saying. Then why do we have to get this changing of bodies? Prabhupāda: That is another question. This is nice question. Actually, we don't require to change bodies. We don't require. But we are put into certain conditions that we have to change our body. That is material life. In the material life, in the material existence, we have to change bodies, because we have got different desires, different consciousness. Now why there is fight between one nation to another nation, one body to another's body? Because they have got different consciousness. Is it not? I have got a consciousness, you have got another consciousness. Therefore I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, and ultimately we fight. Similarly, because we have now come to this material world for enjoying this material world, under different consciousness we are given different bodies. God is so kind, "All right; please enjoy." Just like a tiger, he wants to enjoy fresh blood immediately. So God has given, "All right, you take this body. You can enjoy." So God is very kind. As we want to enjoy differently, He gives us different bodies. Therefore we have to withdraw all these desires. We have to simply desire God, or Kṛṣṇa. Then you get godly body. That's all. Guest: Has that been proved? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: How? How is it proved that people don't die and . . .? Prabhupāda: That I already have said, that you have changed your childhood body. There is no . . . that body is gone. You cannot find out where is that body, but you know that you were a child in a different body. Therefore you are eternal, although your body is gone. Guest: But from my childhood to where I am at the moment, I changed when I was seeing almost. But then . . . Prabhupāda: Your body is no longer existing, but still you are seeing; therefore you are eternal. Guest: But the most surprising thing is the change that comes all of a sudden to an individual, and then that body is . . . Prabhupāda: That is just by law. You do not know the law, how it is changing, how it is transforming—that is your ignorance. But it is taking place, that's a fact. Because you are ignorant of certain process, that is not your knowledge. You should know how it is being changed. Similarly, just like you are in now this shirt and coat, when you go at home, then . . . (indistinct) . . . like this, now you are in this apartment and you go another apartment, does that mean that you are finished? You are somewhere. Similarly, when you give up this body you'll take another body. One may not know what kind of body he has taken, but he has taken a body. Exactly just like if you go from this apartment room, it is a fact that you have gone to another apartment. But I may not know to which apartment you have gone. But this is a fact, that you must have gone to another apartment. Guest (2): Unless one has got a total spiritual knowledge, or say . . . Prabhupāda: This is not very advanced knowledge. You are in the apartment of a small body, now you are in different body. Guest: It is just like when we were children, or say in that form, what clothes we were putting on we cannot recall now, because we have changed so many times. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you were a child, that is a fact. Similarly, you may not recall what you were in your previous body, but you were. That is a fact. Guest: If I go back to another question: You were saying, sir, what do you call it, the world, about five thousand years ago, the world was one. All people were ruled by one king . . . Prabhupāda: That you can understand from history, *Mahābhārata* . The history is there. There is a history called by the name *Mahābhārata* . Mahā means greater; bhārat means this planet. That you can understand from that book. There is a history; there is *Purāṇas* . You can understand. As you understand history by reading history, similarly you can understand all these things by reading all these books. Guest: If I could try to depart a little, because I am confused a little bit by the Bible or by this religion about God or . . . Prabhupāda: That is your selection. But Bible may be two thousand years old, but before two thousand years, what was the situation you cannot say. You cannot say that before two thousand years there was no existence . . . (indistinct) . . . that you cannot say. So if the human society was still there, so what was their religion, what they were doing? There must be some history. And that history is *Mahābhārata* . Guest: Are we classified by that . . . (aside) What is it called? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa Guest: . . . Kṛṣṇa, when this has started? Prabhupāda: But it is never started. Kṛṣṇa is always, just like the sun is always. Guest: The world was there . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can say: "Since the material world was started, this classification started." The material world means it has got a date of starting. But before this starting of material world, the spiritual world was there. Just like you are now constructing African state, but that does not mean Africa did not exist before your construction work. Africa was still existing before your independence, before your calling this name or that name. Guest: And what is the purpose of man living in this world? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Because he wanted to enjoy. There are so many species of life in your country: there are tigers, there are lions, there are elephants—and you are there, we are here. We have got different purposes. I have come here with a different purpose. I have come also to Africa, but my purpose is different. And the lion is also here in Africa, but his purpose is different. Guest: I think I have to put my question in a different way. Prabhupāda: Because you have got a certain type of desire, you are sent here. Guest: But let's say from the God's point of view, what is the purpose of man to live in this world? Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to live here. God is so kind. Just like a father, his one son is living there, and his one son has left home, but father does not like it. Father is saying: "You are doing this, I don't like it." This is happening. Similarly, you are all sons of God. You liked it, "All right," so the father, "You do it. Enjoy it." Guest: But is it the will of God that man should live in this world in this way? Prabhupāda: No. God does not say that, "You live in this world." God comes here, rather, to call you back to home: "Don't live in this world. You are always suffering. Please come to Me." God does not like that you should be here. Guest: But even the rich people are dying, they are not suffering. What sort of suffering are you referring to? Prabhupāda: Your idea is that rich people does not suffer? Guest: Rich people? Prabhupāda: Your idea is that rich people do not suffer? Guest: Well, that's what I'm asking. Prabhupāda: No, everyone suffers. Here, the rich or poor, or the animal or the man or the demigod or the . . . everyone suffers. Guest (2): Suffering could be different . . . Prabhupāda: Suffering is the meaning of this material world. Guest: I see. Prabhupāda: You may suffer in one way, I may suffer in another way, but nobody is free from suffering. That's a fact. Guest: Well I'm referring to the common suffering by the most people, when . . . Prabhupāda: The common suffering is birth, death, old age and disease. The animal is suffering from this, you are suffering from this, I am suffering from this, he is suffering from this—birth, death, old age and disease. When these four problems can be solved by scientific advancement, then you have gained something. But that is not possible. You cannot stop birth, you cannot stop death, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. Guest: That is in everything . . . (indistinct) . . . any life. Prabhupāda: That is real suffering. It may be manifested in different way, just like you have got some disease, but symptoms are different. Sometimes you think that, "My . . . I am feeling headache," sometime feeling pain somewhere. But disease is the one. Similarly, here the material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. So these four miserable conditions are manifested in different ways. So when you come . . . when you become purified from this material consciousness, then you become again to your original position, eternal position, na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20), never dies, never takes birth. Śyāmasundara: There is a state free from this suffering? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are free from all these things. You become purified. Guest: But still when you become, say, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what I understand, that suppose we feel as if we are this coat, if we realize Him, and we feel happiness . . . (indistinct) . . . everything, but still our body, physical body, it still remains old or it grows old. Prabhupāda: That's fine. But you are not this body. Guest: That we understand. Prabhupāda: You are not growing old. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you are identifying with this body, you are thinking, "I am African," "I am American," "I am Indian . . ." Guest: And everything goes wrong. Prabhupāda: Everything will be . . . if you are completely in understanding that "I am not this body," then you are no longer African or born Indian, no more Hindu, no more Muslim; *you are spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi —"I am Brahma." And as soon as you come to that state, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā : immediately becomes joyful. That is required. We are searching after joy. (aside) Aiya . So that is required: to be purified. As soon as you are purified, free from all designations . . . at the present moment the disease is I am feeling, I am identifying with my designation. That is my disease. I am thinking, "I am Indian"; somebody is thinking that he is Hindu; *somebody is thinking that he is European, somebody African, Asian. But these are all designations. So actually when we become designation*-free, that is called brahma-bhūta stage. And that is the stage of ānanda . Ānanda , or pleasure. Ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). *Every living entity or God is ānanda*-maya . Just like you see Kṛṣṇa's picture is ānanda-maya : He is enjoying. Here is the picture. He is enjoying. He is playing flute with the company of Śrīmatī Rādhārani. He is enjoying. He is young man. This is the real form of God— ānanda-maya . God hasn't got to till the ground for eating or make any business or any profession. So you can get also the same position along with God. You can go to Kṛṣṇa also, dance with Him, enjoy with Him. Ānanda-mayo 'bhyāsāt . By nature God and the living entities are enjoying, joyful. *So unless you come to that position of joyfulness . . . you must know that if you are diseased, you cannot enjoy life. If you are suffering from fever, I may offer you very nice, palatable dishes—you cannot enjoy it. Similarly, so long you are not in that ānanda*-maya position, you cannot enjoy life. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . The highest standard of happiness can be enjoyed by your spiritual senses, not by these blunt material senses. So you have to be purified from this blunt material consci . . . that you can feel. Just like when you are freed from feverish condition, you can enjoy these same foodstuffs so nice, "Ah, now I will enjoy." So here we are not enjoying. We are trying to enjoy, because we have got the enjoying spirit, but due to our diseased condition we are not enjoying. Everything is detestful, confused, frustrated. But we are by nature joyful—therefore we are trying to see, "Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment? Where is enjoyment?" But I am keeping myself in diseased condition. How he can enjoy? Guest: That's true. Prabhupāda: So one has to be freed from the diseased condition, and then he can enjoy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement—to make people free from the diseased condition of life. Guest: But I think you'll still allow me to say that I haven't got, well, clear answer to the question I was aiming to ask you. See, the thing is that—taking the fact the God is great, and He can do anything that He wants, now, my question would be: we see that we are going in this world, we die, and we come back through reincarnation and all these things, and when you are here we have got different, er . . . we are not all equal, some are rich, some are poor . . . Prabhupāda: Because of this diseased condition of life. Guest: Now my real question is this: God could see that there is no question of a source to be born into this world, material, and all these things, and so if He did not do that . . . God is present in the . . . (indistinct) . . . human being process and all these things. What is the purpose of God? Not making us live that we are . . . Prabhupāda: The purpose of God is that He enjoys. Guest: And suppose I am not enjoying? Prabhupāda: But you do not. You do not like. Just like God says: But you do not do that. Guest: Does it mean that there is no enjoyment . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, God wants that you enjoy. But He says, just like the father says the son that, "Why are you suffering? Come to me. I shall give you all protection." But the son does not do it. So what the father will do? Śyāmasundara: In other words, there's free will. Prabhupāda: Yes. God can do it by force, but He does not do it, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? He has given you free will. Or God is free, therefore you are part and parcel of God; therefore you have got free will. And if you are killed with that free will, then what is your value? Then you become a stone. Guest: And then is it true that some people are born lucky and some are born unlucky? Prabhupāda: "Lucky" means just like here we are sitting so many: somebody's income is hundred, somebody's is a thousand, somebody's is lakh . He has made his fortune. That is there. God has nothing to do with that. He has worked hard, he has got. That's all. Just like you, African nation, now you are trying to develop your country so you be also as rich as the Europeans and others. That will depend on your work. So these varieties of work will not solve your material question: birth, death, old age and disease. You will never be happy. That is the position. You may be as rich as the Americans or the Europeans, but that does not mean that you will be free from all disturbances. Therefore in our philosophy these are simply waste of time. Just like the British Empire was created—the Africans were being ruled by the Britisher as India was being ruled by the Britisher. They thought, "We have created very nice situation." But our view: they simply wasted their time. Where is that British Empire? Lord Clive is standing now . . . (aside) What is that road? Śyāmasundara: St. James Park. Prabhupāda: St. James Park. There is a stone statue. But he might have taken the birth as a dog. What this statue will help him? Nothing. But that is all: attraction. "Let me become a big statue in the park." (laughter) And that is called māyā . Guest: We know that all the God has got no beginning and no end. What is the beginning of mankind? Prabhupāda: What is the beginning of mankind? Guest: (indistinct) . . . take my own self. Prabhupāda: Yes. Beginning is the same. Creation, when this material world was created, your body was also created. Guest: And what is my beginning? Prabhupāda: That you may know. I cannot say. Devotee: Could be anything. (laughter) Guest: But you were existing. Devotee: Could be any form. Prabhupāda: And what business I have got to "What is the beginning?" Guest: Yes, I am asking myself, because I don't know what was my beginning. Prabhupāda: Beginning . . . in the beginning you have got some body. There are 8,400,000 species of life, body. So you have taken your beginning in any form of these bodies, and you are enjoying this material world. Guest: Then how many incarnations do I need to take . . . *Prabhupāda: There is no need. Unless you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this process will go on unlimitedly. And if you want to stop this repeated birth and death, then you understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : "One who understands Me really, he only does not take birth again after quitting this body." Then where does he go? Is he finished? No. Mām eti : "He comes to Me." So you have to finish this business of repeated birth and death in millions and trillions of species of life by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by understanding Kṛṣṇa. Then your life is perfect. Otherwise you are spoiling your life. Guest: If by understanding Kṛṣṇa then I don't need to be born again, is it true that those people, or these beings, who are angels are the ones who have understood Kṛṣṇa, or what? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Śyāmasundara: Angels? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not angels? They have got their spiritual form, and they enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, mām eti : "He comes to Me." Then he enjoys with Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa is playing with His cowherd boys, His gopīs and so many. He has got His paraphernalia. Guest: And what work do they do, these angels? What work do they do? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): What work do angels do? Prabhupāda: Angels are like you. They are little enjoying, but better. Just like Europeans. They may be enjoying a better material life, in the nice dress, or nice form. That's all. They are like that. But it is not that they are free from birth, death, old age and disease. Śyāmasundara: He was asking that when we become liberated from . . . when we go to Kṛṣṇa, do we become angels? Prabhupāda: The angel is just like here, a beautiful man is called angel, but that does not mean he does not die or he does not suffer. Guest (3): "Angels" in the accepted sense of the term are something superior to mankind. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are superior. Many. In other planetary system there are many superior beings. They are living ten thousands of years. Just like you are living for hundred of years, and the ant is living, say, four hours. So you are superior to the ant. Guest (3): But that is not the eternal form? Prabhupāda: No. Either you die after hundred years or hundred millions of years, you die. That is not eternal life. Brahma dies, you cannot calculate even his one day. *Sahasra*-yuga —forty-three lakhs , forty-three hundreds of years . . . hundred thousands of years, they are multiplied by one thousand. That becomes Brahma's twelve hours. Then add another twelve hours, that becomes Brahma's one day. Similarly, thirty days; similarly twelve months. In this way he lives also hundred years, but his hundred years and your hundred years, different. But he also dies. He also dies. Guest: Now one time you were calling this word "die." You are talking about the body changing. Prabhupāda: "Die" means change of body. Guest: Is it His will that we all mimic Kṛṣṇa . . . we call it Kṛṣṇa? Is it His will that we die or we have that change, or we even have existed? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is by the will of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: And why? Prabhupāda: Why? Because you wanted it. That I have already said. You wanted to become an ant; Kṛṣṇa has given you the body of ant. Guest: Is He not kind? Prabhupāda: Huh? He is kind. Because you wanted, and He gives it. He is very kind. Guest: No, but if this is His will, to bring the disease upon man . . . Prabhupāda: No. You wanted a life which is full of these miserable condition—birth, death, old age and disease. Guest: And is He going to change everybody, I mean, through death? Prabhupāda: Not death. Death is not the solution. The solution is you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yo jānāti tattvaṁ (BG 4.9)—one who knows Kṛṣṇa. To know Kṛṣṇa, that is solution. Death—everyone is dying. Guest: But is He going . . . well . . . will mankind get finished in the world? Prabhupāda: That is not possible, because everybody is not becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore . . . Guest: There could be many who desire to live here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Many. Everyone has right to. Otherwise why we are preaching Kṛṣṇa . . . to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness and they are not becoming? Why? They want to live here and become kicked by this miserable condition of life. That is their desire. We are speaking everyone that, "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Your all problems are solved." But they do not do it. What Kṛṣṇa will do? Guest: So let me say then that by understanding Kṛṣṇa as the cause of Godhead, the same type of saying in the . . . well, say similar saying in the Christianity, that those who are . . . Prabhupāda: So we don't say that Christianity or Hinduity. We say try to understand God. You understand it through Christianity or through Hinduity or any nonsense thing. You try to understand. And if you can understand, then we take that process of religion first class. It doesn't matter whether you understand God through Muhammadanism or Christianism or Hinduism or Buddhism. It doesn't matter. You try to understand God. And if you have understood God through your process of religiosity, then your religion is first class. Otherwise you have simply wasted your time. Just like so many businessmen there are. Somebody is doing some kind of business, another body is doing another kind of business—but the aim of business is to earn some money. Then if one has not earned money, and he has done business, then what is the use? You may do any business, but you earn money— phalena paricīyate —and you have become rich, then I can say: "You are successful businessman." It does not mean that you have to do this business or that business. Any way you do business, you earn some money, then you are successful. That is material calculation. Similarly, you accept any religion—it does not matter—but you understand what is God. If you do not understand, then you are wasting your time under the stamp of so many religions. And if you are serious to understand God, then you should take such kind of religion which helps you to understand God. That is your business. Guest: The day before, you said about eating meat or killing animals. Now is it then wrong to . . . eating meat? Or if it is wrong, is there any particular meat or particular animal that is prohibited to be eaten? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are some creation of God, so you have got your own food. The tiger has got his own food. If you offer a tiger, a lion, a nice plate of fruits and vegetables, he won't touch it. Why? Because he has been allotted a certain type of food. Similarly, you have got a certain type of food to eat. If you violate the rule, then you disgrace God's regulation, and you become rejected, criminal. Guest: This means that the all animal has a . . . Prabhupāda: Your business . . . human being's business is to understand God, to become . . . to realize himself as His servant of God. So your business is to accept eating what God desires. Because just like our position, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we eat something which is taken by, accepted by, Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa says that, "Give Me patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ " (BG 9.26), vegetables, fruits. *So we offer Kṛṣṇa grains, fruits, vegetables, and we take it. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me meat," then we shall offer Him meat and take it. But because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot take anything which is not eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our vow. So we have no quarrel with vegetarians. But if you want to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, you must take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. Guest: Another question . . . *Prabhupāda: Another thing is that if you are God conscious, if you know that every living entity is God's son . . . God says, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). He is the father of all living entities. Then you will see that, "Every living entity is my brother. How can I cut throat of my brother?" That is called consciousness. If you are really God conscious, if you think that God is the father of all living entities, how you can say that He is not father of the cats and the dogs and the cows and the . . . He is father of everyone. He is in different dress. Because you are in different dress, in black dress, is it the right of the white man to cut your throat? No. The God conscious . . . as soon as people become God conscious, "Oh, he may be in black dress, I may be in white dress—but he is also son of God, I am also son of God. He is my brother." This is God conscious. This is lacking. Therefore I am treating somebody lower than me and somebody higher than me—due to want of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is lacking. I have got many Africans my students, of course American Negroes. They are equally living, chanting, dancing with these white boys. They have forgotten that "He is black and he is white," because they are not in the platform of this bodily concept of life. They are mixing. There are so many young girls, they are mixing, but there is no sex . . . (indistinct) So this is training, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything comes to perfect. And as soon as we speak from the platform of bodily concept of life, there will be no adjustment. It is impossible. Forget it. You may have United Nation and other things, but the controversy and the differences will go on. It is not possible. This is the only solution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just try to understand, those who are intelligent. Political, social, religious, cultural—all solution is included in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply you have to try to understand it, how it is so. That's all. Guest: And what is the minimum qualification? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest: What? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That is the name of, "Almighty" all the time. Prabhupāda: Not "Almighty"; simply Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on the street and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, just as we do. These boys, you see how they are chanting—Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Do it. What is the difficulty? You can do it and begin immediately the process. But you will not do it. What can I do? The process is not at all difficult. Anyone can take to it. But you won't do it. That is the determination. So what can be done? Śyāmasundara: Can we have some kīrtana , Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is very simple and can be accepted by anyone. But they will not accept it. What can be done? Guest (2): Main thing is because they do not know it. They don't know it. Not convinced by . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say come to class; try to understand. Then you will do it. Guest: Yes. A further question then: The fault is this. The questions might be based on their rules, you know, how they know about spiritual knowledge. So that's why sometimes we have to ask you some further questions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. You are welcome. You are welcome to ask questions. Guest: Taking the first, that we all live according to God's will, and again we find if you try to tell others, say we Africans, if we try to speak with our friends and try to introduce another understanding of God as presented apart from what we have understood it from Christianity point of view . . . Prabhupāda: Don't go any point of view. Try to understand God philosophically. Don't be designated. Again you become designated. Guest: My question was this now: what answer could you give to a person who asks you that what wrong a person might have done to make him be born deformed, right from his mother's stomach, say? He didn't get accident during his other life, then was born deformed . . . (indistinct) . . . of the sort. *Prabhupāda: Desire. Desire. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . At the time of death, what you are desiring, you get the body next. Guest: I think there is nobody who can desire to be crippled, so that they will be born again as a cripple. Prabhupāda: Cripple may be due to father and mother's diseased condition. That is all right. Guest: Suppose there was no disease? Prabhupāda: Suppose there was . . . naturally, then nobody comes crippled. There are rare circumstances where the child is born crippled. Guest: Why does this disease have the tendency to have its effect on the child? Prabhupāda: Because the child gets the body from the father and mother. Guest: And who suffers? Not the parents. Prabhupāda: Therefore that can be understood that a white man's child is white, and a black man's child is black, because due to his body. Guest: If one is . . . if one died and is born again, do you mean that he has lived in this world before? Prabhupāda: Well, you may live in this world, in other world. There are so many worlds. Guest: But does one know where he lived in the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. This world is made of this matter. So anyone who lives, he lives in the matter. Either I live in the water or in the sky or on the land. They are all matter: earth, water, air, fire. Everywhere you live, you live in the matter. Guest: I mean does one experience the change? Prabhupāda: No, no. He forgets. He forgets. That is another gift of God. Suppose one has taken the birth of a hog, and last birth he was a king. If he remembers that, "I was king," then his life will be horrible. Therefore he forgets. Guest: But what does it mean? Prabhupāda: Yes, God gives him this forgetfulness. Guest: You mean Kṛṣṇa has got a store of lives? When religious people come back to the world as animals or . . . Prabhupāda: They become according to their desire: animal or man or demigod or . . . there are 8,400,000 species of life. So as he desires, he gets the body. Guest: But has He got a store, to keep all these lives? Prabhupāda: No. The store is this matter. Your desire develops this body. Just like if you have got store of rice, dhal , butter, ghee , you can prepare so many foods. So the store is these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. And from this store you makes different bodies. That's all. Guest (2): Do you develop immediately your material body, or material for leaves? Or you stay for some time . . . Prabhupāda: It takes a process. It takes a process. When you desire something at the time of death, so you are transferred to the semina of the father, similar father, and he injects the semina in the womb of the mother, and the mother supplies the material, she develops the body. That is the process. Your desire. When you desire a type of condition to take birth either as European or African or a cat or a dog or a human being or demigod, that is your desire. Guest (2): Swāmījī, how far does actions comes into effect? Prabhupāda: That is your desire. If you desire to have a body, so according to the body, you act. The body means your action. Guest (2): Some people say that suppose somebody is doing, I mean, is committing sins and all this, killing others, or giving pains to others, this and that way, then when he takes next birth depends upon his present actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Your desire . . . at the time of death you get a desire, a mental condition, according to the acts you have done throughout your whole life. Guest (2): Because desire can be a different thing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, not different. Generally you desire as you are accustomed to desire. Generally you desire. And similarly, if you become accustomed to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will desire Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest: So according to the explanation, your explanation, there is a conclusive evidence that man has not started from a particular soul, which was at that time . . . (indistinct) . . . man is started from an unknown place. Prabhupāda: Mind is flickering. So you change your mind, you change your body. Guest: And where did this man come from? Because it is very funny. Everything that lives . . . Prabhupāda: How you know where everything comes from? Guest: . . . must have a beginning and an end. Prabhupāda: The things are there, and they are all coming from God. That's all. You should understand like that. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming from God. Guest: But I'm driving at . . . how did God deal with the formacies of the first person? How did He construct the first person? Devotee: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: How did Kṛṣṇa create the persons, person? Guest: What was in the beginning. He says . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning was Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is the beginning of everything. Guest: Yes. But how did He get man into the world? Prabhupāda: How did he get . . .? Devotee: Man. Human beings. Guest: Were there human beings before, or what was in the form before human beings? Some people said that we were from . . . Prabhupāda: No. Always the 8,400,000 species of life are there. As soon as creation is there, the 8,400,000 species of life also created, according to the . . . the living entity, they are in this created . . . in this material world, since time immemorial. So one creation is not the only one creation. Creation is . . . the material world is, it is created, and again it is vanquished. Everything. Guest: Five things were existing first, could we say? Prabhupāda: No. Nothing existed. Nothing existed. These . . . existed . . . simply existing God. God was there. Then from His energy, so many things came. Guest: We can say that . . . say this book . . . Prabhupāda: I am the author of this book. I existed, so I have written this book. Not that it has come into existence. Guest: Then God must be very wonderful! Prabhupāda: He is certainly He's wonderful, otherwise how He is God? Guest: Because we are using the shape from time to time, and these formacies, and we are failing to know how He has brought man into the world. Prabhupāda: God's . . . you mean it is a form? (aside) What is his question? Guest (2): He says that God must be wonderful because we cannot understand His form, because sometimes we think in this way. Prabhupāda: Why we cannot understand? God, when God says: "Here I am," why you cannot understand? Guest: Well I don't understand Him, because He hasn't revealed this to man when He created us. This is where my problem is, you see. Because we come from the mother, we are born and die. Prabhupāda: You are part and parcel of God. Just like the sun: as soon as the sun is there, the sunshine is there. The sunshine is not created in another time. Try to understand this. Guest: Created. Prabhupāda: Sunshine is not created. As soon as there is sun, there is sunshine. That means sunshine is always with the sun. So you are part and parcel of God. God is existing everlastingly. You are also existing everlastingly. But this sunshine, when it is covered by cloud, it becomes dark. Similarly, when you are covered by maya , you forget God. That is a fact. Otherwise you are existing with God always. Therefore you have no birth and death, originally, as spirit soul. Your birth and death is due to this covering of matter. When you are covered by certain type of body, you think, "I am this African." Again when you are covered by some other body, you think, "I am this." You are thinking like that, but you are always different from this body. You are existing with God, but you have forgotten. Forgetting God, you think you are African, I think, "I am Indian," he is thinking European. That you have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: When I met the scientists last, they gave me a very perplexing idea. Prabhupāda: What do they know? First of all, what do they know? Why he shall not give perplexing ideas? Guest: They gave me a perplexing idea, because they told me man came from the waters. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Wherefrom the water came? Guest: Man developed it from . . . Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the water came? Guest: Water? That was made by God. Prabhupāda: Then God . . . it comes to God. What is the use of the scientist? Why don't you go to God directly? Guest: I am talking in terms of the origin of man, what they idea . . . Prabhupāda: That may be. That may be. So first there was ether. Creation, process of creation, is first there was ether, and then there was air, then there was fire, then there was water, then there was earth. This is the process of creation. Guest: Let me ask another question. I asked it before. You said that one is in, something, in and out, within and without. Which one of these is found more valuable by Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): He says, by Kṛṣṇa, the one who is inside or the one who is without? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is without and within. Guest: No, I mean to me, if I am within and without. Prabhupāda: Within you are real, your real self, spirit. Therefore within, you are important. Brahmānanda: We are within . . . Guest: Yes. Brahmānanda: . . . but Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is within and without. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is within and without. He is both. He is Absolute. He is Absolute; therefore He has no within and without. We are relative. We are now in the material world; therefore there is within and without. And when you become simply spirit soul, then there is no within and without. Guest: And is there a time that the soul has to stay in the spiritual world . . . Prabhupāda: So long we have got the desire to enjoy this material world, yes, we remain here. Guest: But what I mean is when we die. Prabhupāda: You die with your desire. That does not mean end of material life. You take another body—according to your desire. Guest: But my question is this, how long do we stay before we come back again? Prabhupāda: As soon as you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: There is no specific time . . . Guest (2): No. His question is this, suppose we die. Now the soul, the soul doesn't take another birth? Prabhupāda: He has to take birth. Guest (2): He has to take birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long he is desiring, he is dying with some desire, so he has to take birth. Guest: If he has no desire, then . . . Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. He has no desire means that he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (2): But then after some time if he desires again, then he can come back? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: But is there any period that one has to stay in the spiritual world because he's born? Brahmānanda: (aside) We need to close the curtains, because the insects are coming in. The insects are attracted by the light. (discussion about closing curtains) *Prabhupāda: Desireless— sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ (CC Madhya 19.170). When you become desireless, that is your freedom. Desireless means not to desire to lord it over the material world. Now we are desiring how to lord it over the material world. Somebody tries to be a very big businessman, somebody is trying to be a minister, somebody is trying to be this and that. Always they are being conducted by the desire. When that desires will be purified, that "I shall simply serve God, or Kṛṣṇa," then you are purified. Otherwise you'll have to take that particular type of body to fulfill your desire. Guest (2): I see the point, you know. I am . . . I am in such, I mean, going to ask again the question: Now when . . . Prabhupāda: (devotee enters and Prabhupāda acknowledges) All right. Wait. I am coming. Our philosophy begins higher up, because physical training of the body, but we say: "You are not this body." Guest (2): That's the main thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. How physical training of the body will help you? It will help you, just to concentrate the mind. Nothing more than that. So what is your last question? Guest: When you decided to pay us a visit, I believe you knew that you are coming to meet different minds. In other words, I believe this way, and you believe the other way around. Now what is your intention? Is it to teach us primarily knowledge of these all . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore there is training. We have got a different mind, like a child has got a different mind, but the teacher trains him to a certain type of thinking. He wants to play. The child wants to play, but the teacher trains him to study. The mind is changed. The child's mind, when he comes to his school, he's always thinking of playing. But the teacher gradually trains him to read, and he learns A*-B-C-D and other books, and he becomes educated. So you may be of different mind, but if you are trained up, you'll take to education and you pass the examination. That's all. You have to agree to take the training. That's all. Then everything will be all right. That is called initiation. You voluntarily accept a person who will teach you. That is required. That is the Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to be trained up in the transcendental science, one must accept a bona fide teacher. Guest: But is it . . . should we be correct if we say the name Kṛṣṇa is the name that God is known to us? *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, I have already explained, Kṛṣṇa is the name of God. Because Kṛṣṇa, this very word suggests "all*-attractive." If God is not all-attractive, then how He is God? If God is attractive to a certain class of men or certain class of living entity, then how He can be God? Therefore this is the perfect name of God—"all-attractive." Guest: Otherwise He has got thousands of names. Prabhupāda: Thousands of names. God has thousands and millions of names, according to His quality. So He has got unlimited quality; *therefore He has got unlimited names. But this is the perfect name, because it comprehends all the qualities—"all*-attractive." (pause) So we shall . . . later on. Guest: We can do the kīrtanas and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Kīrtana ? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) (end) Conversation -- September 23, 1971, Nairobi (Introduction) Evening. September 23rd. Continuation of questions by African intelligence) Prabhupāda: . . . yesterday? Hmm? Śyāmasundara: (to guest) . . . yesterday you asked a question. Do you remember? "What is our beginning?" Is that it? "Why are we existing?" Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that question? Śyāmasundara: (to guest) You ask. *Prabhupāda: That I have already answered, that there is no beginning, because we are part and parcel of God. God is ever*-existing; *therefore His parts and parcels are also ever*-existing. There is no beginning. The . . . we are taking into account of beginning because we have got this material body. The material body has beginning, just like this material body is taken into account when it is born. But the spirit soul is ever-existing. The beginning is, means, the beginning of this material body. The spirit soul has no beginning, no end. Just like in this present life you can realize that, as I explained yesterday, that you had a body of babyhood, then you had a body of boyhood, now you have got a body of youthhood. The body is changing, but you are the same. You can remember when you were playing with other children in your childish body. The same you, who is still existing in this body, he was in that childhood body. Similarly, when you get old, old means your body gets old. Just like I have got. I am old man; I can remember my childhood, I can remember my youthhood. *So this soul is existing, but the body is changing. Therefore this soul existed before getting this body, and soul continue to exist after annihilation of this body. Is it clear? Therefore the soul is ever*-existing—there is no beginning, no end. The end and beginning is calculated in terms of this body, material body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated there that this change of body is going on, so when this body will be changed, tathā dehāntara-prāptir ( BG 2.13): āntaram , another. After giving up this body, the soul gets another body, dehāntaram . Dhīras tatra na muhyati : those who are sober, those who are educated, intelligent, they do not bewilder. They know that this soul has now left this body and it has gone to another body. Just like if I leave this apartment, any one of you will understand that I have gone to another apartment. Does not . . . because I have left this apartment, it does not mean that I am no longer existing. This is the position of the soul. We can experiment, or verify, this knowledge even in this life. The same example: I was existing in my childhood body, I was existing in my boyhood body, I was existing in my youthhood body. The body is changing, but I am there. So I will exist when this body is changing. Is there any difficulty to understand? Guest: (indistinct) . . . so one who then exists when the body is dead . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: He is asking if God still exists. Prabhupāda: Exists in exactly the same way. When your childhood body is no longer, how you are existing? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Well, after all, at the present moment you haven't got your childhood body. Similarly, when you will not have this body, why not another body? What is the difficulty? You have got experience in this life that you were existing in your body when it was baby. Just like this child: when he will grow up, the father, mother will not cry or lament, "Oh, where is my son? Where is my son?" He knows that "My son has got another body, but he is existing." Therefore the very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra. Dhīra means those who are sober, cool*-headed. Dhīras tatra na muhyati . *Exactly the same example, that this so many children there are, so when they will grow up the mother will not lament. The mother knows that, "My child is there—the body has changed." Another example can be given that if somebody has seen a child, say a one*-year-old child, and he is absent . . . it is my practical experience—one of my Godbrother, he left home when his child was one year old, and then after twenty-five or thirty years, his boy came to see him—he could not recognize him. Why? There is change of body. One had to introduce his son, "This is your son." "Oh!" (laughter) (laughs) Similarly, we are changing bodies, but the same son he could not recognize. There were many instances. Just like there is a story of Sohrab Rostam. You know? The father killed his boy. They did not know they are father and son, and they fought, and when the boy was killed, then his father knew, "Oh, he is my son!" (aside) Aiye , aiye , bhaite (Come in, have a seat) The body is changing, but the soul is there. Why Rostam lamented for killing his child? Because he could not recognize that "He was my child. I could not . . ." because he was long, long away from home. So he killed his child. This is very simple fact; *try to understand. This is the first beginning of spiritual education. Unless one understands that spirit soul is everlasting, nityaḥśāśvato 'yaṁ , na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre . . . (BG 2.20) That is the description in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that the spirit soul is eternal; *it does not annihilate after the annihilation of this body. And this spirit soul has no beginning. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. As God is ever*-existing, similarly, the spirit soul is ever-existing. Just like as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. *The example of the spirit soul is like the molecular parts in the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of so many atomic shining particles. This is natural. They are different. The sun*-shining particles, they are different. But because they are combined together . . . everything is atomic combination—in water also; in land also—similarly, the sunshine is combination of molecules, shining molecular parts. So as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. Similarly, as God is existing, the part and parcel of God, shining particles, spirit souls, they are also existing. They are also existing. So clear this part. Any one of you, first of all clear this part. That is the first stage for advancing in spiritual education. What is the difficulty in understanding? Guest: The only difficulty . . . I, when I die, when I die and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You don't die. That is my proposition. Guest: My form dies. Prabhupāda: Form, yes! Guest: Eh . . . Prabhupāda: Just like if you change this dress. Guest: Now the soul will be given to somebody else, probably. Is that what you say? Śyāmasundara: The soul will be given to somebody else? After using this body, the soul is given to somebody else? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody else . . . that I have already explained: karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa, jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). According to your karma , according to your pure desire— karma means desire—at the time of your death, if your desire will create a situation, mental situation. Just like a businessman, always thinking of his business, a thief is always planning how to steal; a professor is always thinking how to make a solution of the mathematic problem. Everyone has got different consciousness. So at the time of death, the consciousness created by you by your present activities will carry you to similar bodies. The example is given, just like air flowing through a rose garden, it carries very nice flavor. Similarly, the air passing through filthy place, it carries very bad smell. Is it not? Eh? Similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego is very subtle, subtler than the air. It carries a certain consciousness, and that creates another body. The soul is carried by that consciousness and put into the womb of a particular type of mother through the semina of the father, and the soul grows body in the womb of the mother. Just like a tiger grows the tiger body, a man grows a man's body, the hog grows the hog's body. The body is grown in the mother's body, and when it is complete it comes out and becomes this body. Therefore this human form of life is a chance to understand his real position. In other lives other than human form of life, they are coming by nature's law, by evolution, transmigration—evolution, Darwin's theory of evolution. But the process of evolution are just like there is evolution in human life. There are 4,000 species of human life. They are 8,400,000 species of different forms of life, so other than human beings, there are 8,000,000 forms, and in the human form of life there are 4,000 human species of life. Therefore we find so many varieties; the two bodies will never coincide exactly, the different forms of life. So when one comes to the human form of life, never mind whether he is highly advanced civilized life or uncivilized life, the human form life has got a special privilege to understand his position. It doesn't matter whether he is European or American or Indian or brahmin or śūdra —these are of course bodily differentiation—but the human consciousness is there. Therefore if we utilize this human consciousness and try to understand our constitutional position, "What I am?" and if I can understand that I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God, then my life is perfect. So this understanding, this education, is not hampered. It is not that only the Indian brahmins will be able to understand and not the Africans will be able to . . . able to understand. No. Everyone will be able to, because that human consciousness is there. So my request to you African people is that you are now a growing nation; you try to grow from the solid basic principles of life, understanding, that spiritual understanding. Then your life will be very much successful; you will be an example in the world. At the present moment people are degrading, degrading in this sense: that instead of understanding his spiritual basis of life, they are understanding on the material . . . (indistinct) . . . which is known. He is not this body, but we are trying to adjust things on this bodily concept of life. The United Nations, they are trying to adjust things, but the basic mistake is there, that all the people are simply assembled there, they are in bodily concept of life, therefore they cannot make any solution. And actually that has happened. They are trying for so many years, but because they are in bodily concept of life, according to Bhāgavat they are all asses: *Persons, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . . . kuṇape : this is a bag of three elements, kapha , pitta , vāyu . According to Āyurveda , this body is developed on three material principles: kapha , pitta . . . pitta , vāyu , air. Kapha , pitta , vāyu . The Āyurvedic treatment is on these three principles. Their method of treatment is they can feel the pulse, and by the beating of the pulse they can understand how these three elements are working. And on that principle immediately there are formulas in the Āyurveda that if the pulse is beating like this, then the position of the body is like this. So they will enquire from you the symptoms, and if you say "Yes," immediately they will prescribe medicine. That is Āyurvedic medicine. So this body, you may not understand what is kapha , pitta , vāyu , but we can understand it very easily that if you dissect this body you will find some mucus, some blood, some muscles, some bones and so on. Does it mean that I am a combination of bones, muscles, blood, urine and stool? As such intelligence is coming from bones and biles and urine and stool? No. Therefore anyone who is accepting this body as the self is an ass. Can you combine intelligence by combining the stool, urine and blood and bones and biles and mucus? Can you make a human intelligence? Is it possible? Guest: No, I don't think. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. They are scientists, but if you analyze this body you will find all these things. So if these biles and the bones and the stool and the urine and blood can be found outside also, so if you combine them and produce an intelligence like a great scientist or great . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not possible. Therefore Bhāgavat says, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13): if we accept this combination of these three dhātus as self, then we are nothing but ass. *Therefore the first spiritual understanding is that we should try to understand that, "I am not this body." That is Vedic education: ahaṁ brahmāsmi , just to understand that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I am Brahma." And when you come to that understanding, then you actually become happy: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati, brahma*-bhūtaḥ (BG 18.54). When you come to that understanding of spirit soul, then there is no more lamenting and no more hankering. We are embarrassed by two things—what we haven't got we are simply hankering after it. Just like you African people or Indian people, they hankered after independence. They got independence—India has got independence—but where is the happiness? It is simply . . . (indistinct) . . . simply hankering. So, so long you shall be in bodily concept of life, these two things—hankering and lamenting: hankering after something which we do not possess, and lamenting after something which you have lost. *So as soon as you come to the spiritual understanding, there is no more hankering and lamenting. This is the science. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : at that time one can see all people, all living entities, equally—universal brotherhood. That is the real platform. So they are trying to establish the universal platform . . . brotherhood on the platform of these asses' understanding: "I am this body." But how the asses can make universal brotherhood? Is it possible? No. They cannot do. Asses are asses. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ. Kharaḥ means asses. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape . First of all, first education should be that . . . therefore our students formerly were sent to gurukula to have this spiritual understanding, brahmacārī that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." So where is the soul's activity? Perhaps throughout the whole world the activity of soul can be seen in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: no bodily activity. This boy, Brahmānanda Swami, his father has got very lucrative manufacturing concern. He is manufacturing the plastic boxes, very profitable business. But he has left . . . his eldest son, very beloved son, pet son, but he has left. Why? Because he has come to the spiritual understanding. He has understood that, "I have nothing to do with this material engagement." So unless people come to the spiritual understanding, there is no question of United Nation. It is simply bluff, or impossible. It is not possible. The first education is to know yourself, what you are: ahaṁ brahmāsmi , "I am the spirit soul. I am not this body." So it is clear that you are existing, your body is changing. Similarly, when this body will be changed, you will exist. What is the difficulty in understanding this simple fact? I am existing after changing so many bodies in this life—I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man, so I am now an old man—so when I give up this body, why shall I not exist? What is the difficulty to understand? This is first understanding. Śyāmasundara: If my real identity is spirit soul, what do I look like? What do I really look like? Prabhupāda: That you can understand by an analogy. You look like with two hands and two heads, er, two legs and one head. Unless you have got a head, you have got two hands, you have got two legs, how this body has developed with hands and legs? This body is called dress. Just like if you go to a tailor, he immediately measures your hands and legs and makes your coat and shirt. Similarly, unless you have got hands and legs and head, how this head and legs and hands have come out? Is it very difficult to understand what is your form? You can understand your form by the form of your dress. If this body is dress, then from the form of the dress you can understand your whole form. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. But very small? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. That is also described, that is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Ānantyāya : many, innumerable, unlimited number. Sa ānantyāya kalpate . These are Vedic injunctions. As you have got a spiritual body, very small, similarly the Personality of Godhead, He has got a spiritual body. (aside) You are going? Brahmānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All right. So there's no difficulty . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . to understand your form. You are not formless. That cannot be. Śyāmasundara: So this spirit spark, this very small spark, has form? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Hah. Prabhupāda: That spirit spark is in the microbic germ and in the elephant also. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: They have got different bodies, but the same spirit soul is there. Guest: Now which one of these two, body and spirit, makes probably good or bad activities? Is it the bodies or souls? Prabhupāda: Good or bad activities, there you have to follow. Just like in your state there is law book, and the law book it is said: "You do not do this. You do this." If you're doing . . . just like you are marking in your railway department, so there are . . . what do you call? Regulative books? Guest: Regulations. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Regulations. Prabhupāda: Regulation books. So if you follow the regulation, that is good. If you don't follow the regulation, that is bad. That is the standard of good and bad. So as you have got in the railway department some regulative principles, so why not in the big, gigantic universal state some principles which is given by God? *Therefore in the Bhāgavat it is stated, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītaṁ (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the regulative principles given by God. You cannot manufacture religion. Religion means regulative principles given by God—that is religion. Mr. Patel, is that all right? "The regulative principles given by God is religion." Is there any defect in the definition? Guest: I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: Just like you have got regulative principles given by your railway authorities, is it not? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the regulative principles which are given by God, that is called religion. Guest: Which are these? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Which are these? Prabhupāda: That you find from the religious book. Just like the Christian religion books, the regulative principles is given, Ten Commandments: "Thou shall not kill." But if you are killing, then you are not Christian. You are violent, you're becoming sinful. Guest: Is this also, I mean, a material given in Kṛṣṇa's book or philosophy? Prabhupāda: In any book or philosophy. We are not bringing . . . religion means the regulative principles given by God. That is religion. Any religion you take—Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion—there are regulative principles. So if you follow the regulative principles, then you are following the, I mean to say, orders of God, then you are religious. So religious . . . different types of religions are created according to time, circumstances and people. Just like in Christian religion the first commandment is "Thou shall not killing." "Thou shall not kill," that means it was preached among certain classes of men who were engaged in matters of killing. Is it not? Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise why it is commanded, "Thou shall not kill"? So there are different classes of men; therefore we find different types of religion. Where there are men very highly advanced, who have nothing to do with killing, their instruction is different. Their instruction is: "Just try to understand that you are spirit soul, you're not this matter." And one who cannot understand this principle, the primary moral principles are taught, "Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not . . . (indistinct) . . ." "Thou shall not . . ." So this is also religious principle; *that is also religious principle. Just like in pocket dictionary, this is called also dictionary, and the Webster's International Dictionary is a very big volume—that is also dictionary. But that dictionary is meant for a class of men and this dictionary is meant for another class of men. But both of them are dictionaries. Similarly, the different types of religious system is due to different types of men. But when you actually come to spiritual understanding, then you have to understand yourself, self*-realization: that you are not body, you are not matter—you are spirit soul. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: First of all just try to put some question. Let us try to understand this. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) Weren't you asking also that which of these two creates good and bad activities—the body or the soul? Guest: What I don't understand, actually, is that whether it is the body which makes bad activities or good activities, or is it the soul itself which decides to make these good activities or bad activities? Prabhupāda: The body is the instrument. Just like if I want to drink this water, so this tongue is the instrument to taste it. And when I taste this water, my thirst is immediately gone. So tongue is the instrument for tasting this water. Similarly, if I want . . . if I desire some particular type of enjoyment, Kṛṣṇa, or God, gives me a type of instrumental body, and I shall enjoy. The body is the instrument. The Sanskrit word is called karam . Karam . Karam means doing. Karaṇeṇa. Karaṇeṇa means by the instrument, by the bodily instrument. So you are given. God is so kind that if I want, if I desire to enjoy something . . . I shall give you another example. You find that the hog, it eats, it eats stool. But it has got a different type of mouth. A tiger has got different type of mouth; *a human being has got a different type of mouth—so different instrumental body. That body is offered by superior management, daiva*-netreṇa. Daiva means superior, or godly; netreṇa , "by supervision." You are not the maker of your body. Is that right? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Your body is made different, my body is made different, his body is different. Therefore I am not the maker of the body. I can desire that I want to enjoy this type of facility, and God gives you a type of body to enjoy that facility. Guest: So should one believe then that one is born a thief, is born a murderer, is born good? The soul, is he so envious, born all these way? Prabhupāda: The soul is always good, but, just like the example is, just like fire and the sparks of the fire: fire is also fire, and the small sparks of the fire, they are also fire. Is it not? Fire . . . you have seen sparks of fire? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Are they not fire? Guest: No, not. Prabhupāda: But sometimes they fall out of the fire, and when it is out of the fire, it is no longer fire; it is extinguished. Is it not? You have seen in so many fireplace a phut! phut! There are so many sparks. And as soon as the spark out of the fire it is extinguished. A minute before it was fire, but as soon as it falls down, separated from the fire, it is no longer fire. It is fire, but the potency of fire, illumination is gone. Similarly . . . (aside) Come on. Similarly, we are also fire, but as soon as we have separated from God, our that fire quality, illuminative quality, is lost, the spiritual illuminative quality. But it can be revived if that spark, that particle of coal or carbon, if it is again put into the fire it will be fire. It will become fire. So by our desire to lord it over the material nature we have come in this material world, and God has given us facilities, that "You enjoy this material world to your best capacity." And we are doing that. That is hard struggle for existence. But we are not happy. Guest: Even if as you say that you have . . . I have a soul, and after having a soul like Russian, American and Dutch, now why didn't we have, I mean, all these different, different minds, or divisions . . . varieties and divisions . . . Prabhupāda: Different minds, that the constitution of mind. Just like my . . . you are sitting here, but others, they left. The mind dictated, "Oh, what is the use of sitting?" They cannot utilize the situation. So that is the business of the mind: accepting and rejecting. We sometimes accept something which we like, and we sometimes reject if we do not like. That is the way of mind. Mind's constitutional position is like that: accepting and rejecting. And that we are doing. We are accepting so many things and rejecting again. This acceptance and rejection is going on perpetually, being controlled by the mind. But when you become controller of the mind, then your life is successful. That is called in Sanskrit word svāmī , gosvāmī . At the present moment we are being controlled by the senses and the mind, and when you become actually the controller of the mind and senses . . . just like a gentleman has got good business, and he has given all power to the manager. The manager has become so powerful that he is trying to control over the master. But if the master becomes strong and controls over the manager, then it is nice. And if the master becomes indolent and is controlled by the manager, then it is dangerous. So at the present moment in our material existence we are being controlled by the manager—mind. Guest: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that you can make your mind friend and enemy. If you can train your mind, it becomes your friend so that you can come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become liberated. And if you train your mind in such a way that it becomes your enemy, it drags you to the hell. Therefore the yoga system is an attempt to control over the mind. Yoga indriya-saṁyama (BG 4.27). Yoga means to control over the mind and senses. That is yoga . *By bodily exercise there is process, mechanical process, to control over the body and the senses, because our this tribulation, this condition, material condition, is due to my mind. I am desiring in different way. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ (SB 7.5.30). Adānta , adānta means uncontrolled; go, go means indriya . Therefore gosvāmī . Go means senses, one who has become the master of the senses. He is called gosvāmī or svāmī . The sannyāsī is called svāmī because he is supposed to have control over his mind and senses. *Because we are being driven to the hellish condition: adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ. Tamisraṁ means in the darkness of material body; *adānta , adānta means uncontrolled. At the present moment I am so . . . I am put under the control of the mind. I cannot control it. Therefore the mind is dragging me to the darkest region of this material existence. Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ , punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām . And what I am doing? Repeating the same thing—chewing the chewed, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. So if we study all these statements in the Vedic literature then we come to the light. These are the facts. So human life is meant for this purpose—understanding. It is not meant for imitating or being carried off by the propensities, like the animals. The animals have no other business than how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sense enjoyment and how to defend. That is animal life. Animals are very much busy, "Where is eating? Where I shall eat? Where I shall . . .? Where I can stay? So how can I defend? How can I mate? How can I have sex life?" These are the complete occupation of the mind and senses of the animals. But in the human form of life there must be something extra; *therefore we find in human society there is some attempt for understanding God, and that is called religion. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). The Vedas are giving instruction. But what is the purpose of Vedas ? The purpose of Vedas is to understand God, athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.1), the Vedānta-sūtra , first verse. The human body should be utilized properly. It is a chance, otherwise, which glides down again into the circle. If we remain in the circle . . . just like this morning I was explaining, there is a circle; it begins from here. So you are advancing, you are advancing, but if you remain in the same circle, that means advancing means again come to the same point. *So by evolutionary process, from aquatics to plant life, to plant life to insect life, from insect life to bird's life, from bird's life to animal life, from animal life to human life, from uncivilized life to civilized life—this is called progress. But if the progress is in the same line, then again you become animal, punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām , again repeating, chewing the chewed. Again you become aquatics, again you become trees, again you become insects. This is going on. *So this is a chance. Human form of life is a chance to get out of this circle of repetition of birth and death, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya (BG 7.29). This is human life: to get out of the circle. We are advancing—that's all right—advancing the same. The circle means advancing the same. Just like in the world, around the world, if you go eastward, eastward, eastward, again you come to the west. That is not advancing, that is simply taking labor. Advancing means how to get out of this repetition of birth and death. That is advancing. Guest: I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: He has a question. Guest: I have a question. It has been said by others anyway, and excuse me to mention other religions, but when one is becoming Christian, the aim, after all, you be going in heaven, or if he is bad he will be probably in hell. Now this is the aim or . . . (indistinct) . . . of getting to . . . becoming a good Christian. What is the idea of Kṛṣṇa's philosophy? Śyāmasundara: (explaining) What is the idea of Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Just as the Christians believe that you go to heaven or hell after this life, what is the idea in Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes, the same philosophy. Kṛṣṇa says: "Come to Me," we take it as heaven. But if you do not go to Kṛṣṇa, then go to hell. The same thing I was explaining, that this human form of life is the point where you can go to hell or heaven. If you actually make progress, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9), Kṛṣṇa says that, "After giving up this body you don't come again to this material existence, but you come to Me." Material existence means repetition of birth and death. So that is hell. And if you go back to home, back to Godhead, just like, then you'll get free from this repetition of birth and death. Because the Christian idea—either you go to hell or to heaven—that is not bad, that is all right. It is your choice, either you remain in the cycle of birth and death or you get out of it, go back to Godhead. That we are preaching, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So there is no difference. It may be in different words, but there is no difference. It is the fact that this human form of life is a chance to get out of this birth and death or going gliding down to hellish life. Now you may have a very nice body, but what is your next life? You do not know. Therefore you have to know, "Now I have got this human form of body, I have got higher consciousness to understand, so I should understand what is my heaven and what is my hell—how I go to hell and how I go to heaven." So that statement is nice, the Christian, but is it said that either you go to hell . . . Guest: Or heaven. Prabhupāda: Or heaven. That's nice. Guest (2): Swāmījī, there's another thing, according to him, or what I understand also, that they said that heaven is somewhere up and hell is somewhere down, like that. Prabhupāda: That is also . . . Guest (2): But according to what you have said just now, we can take it also this way, isn't it, that suppose we, we just become with Kṛṣṇa by our thinking our thoughts even at present, and the pleasures we get, can that be heaven? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Because . . . Prabhupāda: Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they are not in this material world. Just like we are—we are not in Kenya; we are with Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are in Vṛndāvana. Guest (2): We are in heaven, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): And those who are suffering, those who haven't got ideas of Kṛṣṇa, or say those who are having some sort of . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, or God, is all*-pervading, so as soon as you take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are in Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā : *Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ ca vyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena , "unadulterated bhakti-yoga ." So one who is engaged in unadulterated bhakti-yoga — avyabhicāreṇa means unadulterated, pure bhakti-yoga —such persons, māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena ya sevate . Sevate means offering service. So that person, guṇān samatītyaitān . . . *Samatītya means completely being liberated from these three modes of material nature—goodness, passion and ignorance. Then what is his position? Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate : he is in the transcendental platform of spiritual understanding. As soon as one becomes in the transcendental platform of brahma , then his signs are that he is no longer lamenting and no longer hankering, and he is equal to everyone: Such person is eligible to enter into devotional service, or after these stages, one is elevated to the devotional service. And what is the effect of devotional service? "He understands Me by this devotional service," bhaktyā . It doesn't say by knowledge, by speculation, by philosophical speculation, or by karma or by jñāna or by yoga , but He says particularly bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . What kind of understanding? Yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ , "as I am actually." *So if you want to understand God, what He is actually, then you have to understand Him through bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . And when he understands fully, tato māṁ tattvato jñātvā , "after understanding Me fully in full knowledge," viśate tad*-anantaram , "he enters in the spiritual world." And as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, that is your normal life. If you don't enter into the spiritual life, if you remain in the material life, then you will have to accept one body after another, go on, continuing. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate : once he appears and again he disappears. And that is called saṁsāra , or repetition of birth and death. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is giving persons a real light, so that he can stop this repetition of birth and death and can go back to home, back to Godhead. Śyāmasundara: You said that God cannot be approached except through bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What does that mean, bhakti ? Prabhupāda: Bhakti means devotion. There are nine kinds of bhakti : This śravaṇaṁ . . . just like you are patiently hearing, this is bhakti . If you don't do anything—if you simply patiently hear and try to understand—your life is successful. You don't require any education. God has given you these ears, but you must hear from the real person. If you hear from others . . . because without bhaktyā , nobody can give you. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . Unless you become bhakta , you cannot understand God. And if you do not understand God, then what is the use of hearing from you? Therefore so many nonsense are coming. They have no information of God; there is no benefit. But because these boys, these European boys and the American boys, are hearing from the right source, they are getting immediately the profit. Because God cannot be understood without bhakti . So people hear from a pure bhakta , then you understand God. It doesn't matter what is your stage, but if you simply give patient hearing, śravaṇaṁ , then kīrtanaṁ . And as soon as you . . . just like these boys, they have heard—now they have come out for kīrtanaṁ , for glorifying the Lord. There he is the son of a businessman, and I told him that, "Take the business of Mr. Sharma." He denied. (laughter) He denied. He has no more taste any more. Just see, a young boy, a businessman's son, an American boy, a rich man's son. Why? Bhakti pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). This is the test of bhakti , that he has no more any interest. Viraktir anyatra syāt : immediately there will be detestful, "What is this nonsense?" Just like a hungry man: if you give him food he will eat, but when his hunger is satisfied he will say: "No more. No, I don't want." So bhakti is like that, true bhakti , bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . If you understand God then you say: "Oh, no more I am interested in the material . . ." This is going on. Just like there is the case of Dhruva Mahārāja. Dhruva Mahārāja, he was very much eager to have the empire of his father, and he wanted, he wanted to please God to get this benediction. But when by his penance and austerities he saw God, he said: "Oh, I am fully satisfied. I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42; *Hari*-bhakti-sudhodaya 7.28): "My dear Lord, I am completely satisfied." Spiritual understanding means complete satisfaction. You come to a stage where you become completely satisfied. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : there is no more hankering, no more lamenting, no more this. But if you do not educate people to the spiritual understanding, this hankering and lamentation will continue. I give you one example, very practical example: just like our Indian people came to Africa that, "We go to Africa; *there is very good field of business." They are hankering. And now there are some inconveniences, they are lamenting. Their input ever improved, their hankering is fulfilled, but now they are lamenting that, "We have to leave because we are not citizen." Also they have riches, they have everything—so once hankering, and then lamenting, and more lamenting then hankering. (laughs) This is going on. Just like pendulum, tock*-tock-tock-tock . (door opens) Therefore Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Aiye . . . that, "Don't remain in this platform of hankering and lamenting. Come to a platform where there will be no more hankering and lamenting." So that is the business of human form of life: to stop this business of hankering and lamenting. The material life means the hankering and lamenting—once hankering and then lamenting. (pause) (aside to guest) Wherefrom you are coming? Devotee (2): We met this gentleman today . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): . . . at a real estate agent's office. Prabhupāda: I see. So you invited him. Devotee (2): Yes. Guest (3): First time . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. You try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy. Lord Caitanya's mission was that in every part, in every corner of the world this philosophy must be spread. So we are trying to spread this philosophy. You take advantage of it; try to understand it and then take it. That is our mission. Guest: Just I have got a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: Taking into account that we are not these bodies but a soul, what is the . . . what do we understand or say when we dream? I might dream now about probably . . . (indistinct) . . . what can we learn from that, as far as the soul is concerned? Śyāmasundara: Dreaming. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: What is dreaming? How does that relate to the soul? Prabhupāda: Dreaming is hallucination. You see? It is the business of the mind. The mind is creating some other body. Just like you are thinking that you have got a body flying in the sky. So even in dream you forget that you have got real body or another body, which is lying on the bed. So it is a scientific fact—the mind creates by different desires, different types of body—that's a fact—and we forget the previous body. Just as dream, when you are dreaming, you forget that you are lying on the bed, you are active in a different way. So similarly, we had our past body, but we have forgotten it, as soon as . . . death means forgetfulness. We forget our past, everything—that is death. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is death. When dreaming we are also forgetting this body, but because it is not death we are coming back again this body, and in early in the morning we rise up, we catch up our duties, "Oh, we have to do this, I have to go there," and so on. But at night when dreaming you forget everything. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So this dreaming is another sample of death. Guest: Sample of death? Prabhupāda: Death. And as you are dreaming at night, as this is night dream, this our material life is day dream. It is also dream. Because what we create in the dream, that does not exist. Is it not a fact? Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: It exists for a few minutes only. So this dream also exists for a few years, that's all. This is also dream, it is simply for few years. But the who is dreaming, that is spirit soul. So we have to understand and come to that spiritual platform. That is your real business—not dreaming, either night or day. That is not your business. *Just try to understand. As dreaming at night is for a few minutes—five minutes, ten minutes or half an hour utmost, then it breaks—everything is lost—similarly, this material life is also dreaming for years, say for fifty or sixty or say hundred years, any, everything, mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Mṛtyuḥ means taking away everything what you have created by dreaming. *As soon as this body is changed, you forget everything, that I was Mr. Such*-and-such, I was African, I was American, I was this or that, black or white—everything forgotten, finished. So this is also dreaming. And as in dreaming sometimes we see the tiger has attacked me at night, or a goat has come and is crashing me, and so many things, and crying—sometimes it happens. But as there is no goats, no tiger, still you dreaming that there is goat, there is tiger, similarly in this way, in this life also, we are thinking, "He is my enemy; he is my friend," this is also dreaming. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nobody is your enemy; nobody is your friend. We have created by dreaming. So we have to get out of this dreaming at night and day and come to the Kṛṣṇa platform. Then our life is successful. Guest: I have got another question. You said that man has got a mind that is higher than animals; that is why a man tries to think more about God. Then why is it possible that man should be born, say, as a dog in the next life or something of the sort? Okay, so he has passed to this level of animal and has come to, I mean, the soul has come to the human society . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . what is the purpose of him going back to the animal kingdom? Prabhupāda: Because if you . . . if you live like animals, then you go to animals again. If you live like man, then you keep yourself man. And if you think like God, then you go to God. That is your business. (aside) Read the verse of this. So if you simply live a life like animal, then you go to the animal kingdom. If you prepare your life like human being, you remain here in a human society. If you prepare your life godly, you go to God. What is the difficulty? So that is the best benefit, you can prepare your life godly and go back to Godhead. This is a chance only. Just like you were in school: if you educate yourself nicely, in future you become very happy; and if you spoil your time, don't take education, then you are a loafer. *So this human form of life is a chance—either you remain as human society or you go back to Godhead or you go back to animals. That is your business. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthā (BG 14.18): they are elevated who are in the modes of goodness. Madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ : those who are in the modes of passion, they remain here. Jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā , adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ : and those who make their character jaghanya , most abominable, they go to the animals. What is the difficulty to understand? *It is not stereotype. The soul is described in the Vedic literature as sarva*-gā : he can go anywhere. He can go anywhere. Anywhere means he can go up, he can go down, or he can remain as he is, according to his work. Just like even in this life I can become illiterate, I can educate . . . I can become educated, if I try for that. The chance is there. The government is giving you a chance to everyone, but according to his own desires one is going to the prison house, one is becoming the high court judge. As it is possible in this life, similarly next life also, the same thing. You can elevate yourself to godly position, and you can stay in position what you are, and you can degrade yourself. Guest: I have got another question. If it is possible for the human soul to remain in the body of an animal, does that mean that the souls are all the same, whether it is created as life in an animal body or in a human being body? Does it mean the souls are the same? Śyāmasundara: All souls are the same? Prabhupāda: Yes. All souls are the same. Just like you are soul—you are in a black body; he is a soul, he is in a white body; I am Indian, I am in a different body; but the soul is the same. It is called dress, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). The body is dress. Because you are in white shirt and because he is in blue jersey, it does not mean you are different. You are the same. Similarly, we may have different bodies—a tiger may have different body and the godly man, the saintly man, may have different body—but the soul is the same. *Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *Vidyā*-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇa . According to Vedic civilization the brahmin is highly learned, vidyā-vinaya , and very gentle. He is considered to be the highest in the human society, the brahmin , vidyā-vinaya-sampanne . If we fall, he does not make any distinction. That is paṇḍita . That is real learned man. Guest: I have got another question. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest: In the material form we have got a big man, small man, big animals and small animals . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, the spiritual form, there is no such thing. Guest: There's no big soul and small souls? Śyāmasundara: No big soul, no small soul—all the same size? Prabhupāda: Yes, the big soul there is: big soul is God. Guest: And apart from God? *Prabhupāda: And small soul we are. Both of them, we are souls. The big soul is God. Just like you and me, we are small souls, so we are dominating over this small body, but God, being big soul, He is dominating over everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi , sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). *Kṣetra*-jña. Kṣetra-jña means the body, one who knows the body. Just like I, I am soul—I know that this is my hand, this is my leg. This is called kṣetra-jña. Kṣetra means this body, and jña means one who knows. So I know everything of my body—not everything practically, but I know when I feel pain or pleasure I can know. But I cannot know what is your pain and pleasure. Therefore you are the master of your body, I am the master of my body. But Kṛṣṇa says: *"But I am also kṣetra*-jñaṁ . I am also present in every body." That is Supersoul, or big soul. *So just like there are two souls: big soul and a small soul. The small souls we are, and big soul is God. Big means all*-pervading. God knows what you are thinking, what you are feeling; but I cannot know what you're thinking, what you are feeling. Therefore I am small soul and God is the big soul. Just like I may be proprietor of this house, and you may be proprietor of that house, but the state is proprietor of everything—so there is big proprietor, the king. Similarly we are soul, God is soul, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Cetanā means living; nitya means eternal. We are all living and eternal. God is also living and eternal, but eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān , but that one maintains all the small. So God has provided food for everyone, all living entities. There are hundreds and thousands of living entities other than human beings. They have no business, they have no profession, but they have no economic problem. You may have never seen that a bird has died fasting or without food, or elephant has died without food. The elephant eats at a time hundred pounds, but he has got eating arrangement by God. The ant is eating only one grain, and it has got also arrangement. So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān : that one God, big soul, He is maintaining all living entities. These are the Vedic injunction. And actually we are being maintained by God. He is supplying rain. From rain there is grain, and you are eating grain—therefore you are living. Guest: I have got another question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: If I am not wrong, I think I am most like a chimpanzee and gorillas. They are considered as the . . . Prabhupāda: They are also supplied food by God. Because I have heard that here in Africa there are gorillas, and where they live there is a kind of tree, and the fruits of that tree is harder than the, I mean to say, iron bullet. (laughter) Yes. The fruits of that tree, the nut, so hard that you cannot break it by hammering. And the gorillas take it, and they chew it, "Very nice!" (laughter) So who has supplied these nuts there where gorillas live? Perhaps you know it, the gorillas in your country, and how in the book that they are supplied with these fruits. Who is supplying the fruits? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: That is God. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kāmān means all things I want. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying, God is supplying. We require sufficient water, so there are oceans, there are seas, stocked, and the water is salty so that it may not decompose. And the sun is engaged to evaporate the water and make it cloud and distribute all over the globe. And it is stored on the mountain, just like tank, and it is coming down like pipe, rivers. Every element is there. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ (ISO 1): everything is being controlled by God. Because the arrangement is complete, you see. It requires excessive amount of water. So just see: therefore the water portion is three fourths. Immense water supply, immense air supply, immense light supply, immense food supply—simply you are mismanaging. The birds, bees, animals, they never feel any scarcity of food. That day I was showing the bird was dancing, the monkey—they are jumping from one tree to another, enough food. They have no problems. *Brahmānanda: Except for the monkey*-eating birds. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? Therefore that problem must be there; *otherwise how you will understand that this is a miserable place? However you may be very expert in making adjustments to your food supply and everything is there, still there will be trouble. That is called saṁsāra*-dāvāna . You cannot be happy here. Whatever you make arrangements you will feel unhappy, unless you come to your senses. This is God. Guest: I have got another question. What is the difference between a wisdom and knowledge, say as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: What is the difference between what? Guest: Difference between wisdom . . . Guest (3): Wisdom and . . . Guest: . . . knowledge, as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned? Śyāmasundara: What is the difference between wisdom and knowledge? Prabhupāda: Wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference. Guest: And which . . . Prabhupāda: Knowledge is wisdom; wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference. Guest: Which comes first? Prabhupāda: Which comes first? It is already existing. Because you are living, there is knowledge. Wisdom you can say is material knowledge, that's all. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But wisdom is also knowledge. Just like after experiencing much experience you become very wise. So wisdom you can say is material knowledge. So this is wisdom: to understand that "I am spirit soul. I am part and parcel of God; therefore my duty is to surrender unto God. He is big soul, I am small soul—He is providing me; therefore it is my duty to take shelter of Him." This is wisdom. "After many, many births of cultivating knowledge, when one actually becomes wise, He surrenders unto Me." To understand God is everything—that kind of great soul is very rare. So? Brahmānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: This will be a little bit outside our discussion. I understand that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains in India, there is a valley where the souls of the saints normally meet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Brahmānanda: He says that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains there is a valley where the saints meet. Guest: The souls of the . . . Devotee (2): The souls . . . Guest: . . . the martyrs and the saints . . . Prabhupāda: No saintly person will eat meat. Devotee (2): No, no. Where they will meet, they will congregate together. The souls of the saintly persons will congregate. You understand—it is a place in the Himalayas where the souls of the saintly persons congregate. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is possible. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That can be possible by the Himalayas. Here it can be possible if you mix together in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are all good souls—then it would be possible. A saintly person does not mean that he has got something extraordinary. That extraordinary is this wisdom to understand God. That is saintly person. Sa mahātmā , vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti : one who knows that God is everything, God is the original cause of everything, he is saintly person. Śyāmasundara: This way. *Prabhupāda: He is sa*-mahātmā . Everything. And what is the business of mahātmā ? Mahātmā means he is under the spiritual nature, daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ . And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya : he has no more business except serving Kṛṣṇa. He does not want anything more. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha , daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty . To keep oneself under the protection of spiritual nature means he becomes liberated; he has no other aim. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha , daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ . Guest: I have got another question. This is, or is not so . . . I read in a certain book that a . . . say first of all taking into consideration that life . . . (indistinct) . . . in other planets apart from theirs . . . (indistinct) . . . I read in a certain book that these people, they normally visit earth . . . (indistinct) . . . whether it is true or not I don't know, but I have heard it . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . residents of those, that planet, they can fly, and they can go from one planet to another. Just like siddha*-loka . By mystic perfection in yoga you can do that also. Aṇimā , laghimā siddhi —you become light. Guest: Now if this, erm, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is He above, you know, the other idols, you worship them, the cows? Is He above them? Śyāmasundara: Is Lord Kṛṣṇa above all other forms of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the Supreme God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . there is, erm, it would appear that there is another God above Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then He's not supreme. If He is supreme, there cannot be any other God superior to Him. Guest: In India there are so many gods worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: Not many. God is one. Guest: Some people worship them. Prabhupāda: God means . . . of course, God, God means controller. The controller, everyone offers to the controller, some sort of controller. Just like Mr. Patel, he is controlling his business; he has got many men working under him. You may be an official; so many men may be working under you. I am also a human being, so many of my disciples they are working under me. So if God means controller, then everyone is controller, then everyone is God. But the thing is that we are not supreme controller. I am controlling my disciples, but if your government says that, "You can't preach here. You go away," I will go. I cannot deny it. Therefore although I am controller, I am not supreme controller. Similarly, Mr. Patel may be controller in his business—hundreds of men working under him—but he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who finds that he is controller, but he is controlled by somebody else. You take anyone—even your president—he is also controlled by somebody. So nobody is supreme controller. When it comes to a point who is not controlled by anyone, that is God. That is called supreme controller. He is controlling everybody, but He is not controlled by anyone. There's a test. If somebody comes before you and he says that, "I am God," you test him, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone. If you are controlled by somebody else, then you are not God." But people do not know what is the nature of God. This is the simple nature. If some rascal comes that, "I am God," so test him that, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone, then you are God; otherwise rascal." That is going on. Every day there is coming out a God. What kind of God he is? We don't accept such rascal as God. God is Kṛṣṇa, because He is not controlled by anybody. That is God. Kṛṣṇa, when He was present, He was never controlled by anyone, but He controlled everyone. That is God. Guest: So, erm, this word . . . Prabhupāda: God is the supreme controller. That is the small definition. Guest: So Kṛṣṇa means God. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. He is supreme controller. *Guest: All*-attractive . . . (indistinct) . . . coming from God . . . Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa is God. Guest: God. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is another name of God. Prabhupāda: You try to . . . (indistinct) . . . another name of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means black. Guest: Black? Prabhupāda: Black, yes. As you are black, similarly Kṛṣṇa is also black, but that does not mean any black man is God. Guest (2): Swāmījī, can some light be thrown on this thinking? Most of the people over here, they think that when Indians are showing their respect to the cows, some think that they, when they go to the temple, the cows idols are there, they throw milk and all this so many things on there, people think that we are really worshiping them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): So how far the ISKCON thinking is that when we pray to the gorakpur idols, some . . . (indistinct) . . . cow worship . . . *Prabhupāda: Because therefore you have to learn from your spiritual master. You cannot speculate. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you are asking me, you maybe have to learn all these things from your spiritual master. Vedic civilization, those who are following Vedic civilization, they worship cows. That is necessary. The cow produces miracle food, milk. So if you want to have good brain, then you have to take milk. Guest (2): Good brain? Prabhupāda: If you don't want to remain dull, then you have to take milk. Guest (2): Milk. *Prabhupāda: Therefore cow protection is necessary. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ , brāhmaṇa-karma svabhāva-jam . . . er, vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Those who are mercantile people, their business, according to Vedic . . . kṛṣi-go , agriculture. They should be engaged in agriculture and go-rakṣya , and protection of the cows. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya and vāṇijyaṁ , and trade. That is three kinds of occupation. *So go*-rakṣya is the duty of the mercantile people, because without milk and grains, how you can live very decently? Therefore cows' . . . cow protection, go-rakṣya , not tiger- rakṣya . That is not mentioned. Go-rakṣya . There are many other animals—why they are particular about go, cows? That is significant. Because unless we have got sufficient milk supply, you cannot have nourishing food and you cannot develop good brain. Therefore it is necessary. Guest (2): Most essential; an essential animal. Therefore I . . . more respect with me. *Prabhupāda: In the prayers of Kṛṣṇa it is said, namo brahmaṇya*-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 1.19.65). Why especially the cow's name is there? When Kṛṣṇa, when He was present on this planet, He remained as a cowherds boy in His childhood. He gave protection to the cows. So it is the essential part of civilization. Guest: He protect the . . . all animals? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest: He protected all animals. Brahmānanda: Are you asking did He protect all animals? The question is did He protect all animals, or just cows? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Jagaddhitāya . Guest: All the . . . Prabhupāda: All the animals, the whole world. But first preferences is to the cows and the brāhmins . Because without brahminical culture and sufficient supply of milk, that is not human civilization. Guest: In worshiping cows, do you think that there is nothing wrong about it, because Lord Kṛṣṇa does not consider it wrong to worship the cow? Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa does not consider it wrong to worship the cow? Prabhupāda: No, He personally worshiped cow. He showed the example. Guest (2): He used to take them for grazing, even. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: So the actual, the actual doctrine is that you will not kill a cow? Devotee (2): The question was would we kill a cow? Guest: Yes. Devotee (2): Would we kill a cow? Prabhupāda: Who? Devotee (2): Would we? Prabhupāda: "We" means? Guest: Kṛṣṇa followers. Devotee (2): Would the devotees of Kṛṣṇa kill a cow? Prabhupāda: Who? No devotees of Kṛṣṇa would kill cow. Devotee (2): A devotee of Kṛṣṇa would not kill a cow. Prabhupāda: No, they would kill nobody. Kṛṣṇa's devotee would not kill even an ant, what to speak of cow. Cow is most important. Guest: Then would it be possible for . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa doctrine . . . (indistinct) . . . influence the government not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave them to God, or leave them to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What was that? Guest: Could you . . . Devotee (2): Would it be possible to influence the government . . . Guest: Yeah. Devotee (2): . . . not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave it to Kṛṣṇa, to leave it to God, to punish those? Prabhupāda: Well, at the present moment, no government is perfect. But no government is allowed to kill a cow. That's a fact. Why the government kills cows? Guest (2): If the people accept the proposal . . . (indistinct) . . . and if they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if . . . Prabhupāda: They won't kill a cow. Guest: They won't kill. Guest (2): There is no automatically . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We want that you become all Kṛṣṇa conscious and stop this slaughterhouse. Guest: You think that, he asked, not to kill a cow, is it accepted everywhere in India? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (2): Is it accepted everywhere in India? Prabhupāda: India is also killing cow, because they have degraded. Brahmānanda: Cow killing is going on also in India. Guest (2): No, it is not so much . . . Prabhupāda: No, they're making business, government. Guest: Hmm, by killing cows? Please tell me . . . (indistinct) Devotee (3): (whispers) Take prasādam . Guest: For their milk, yeah? Prabhupāda: In India there was government, when Mahārāja Parīkṣit was going on his tour, he saw that one man was attempting to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are trying, attempting to kill a cow in my kingdom." That was by cow protection. (aside) I am not going to. Keep it there and if I want, I require . . . Devotee (2): Keep it in the room. Woman devotee: Yes, all right. Prabhupāda: Even we get history during Muhammadan rule there was no slaughterhouse. There was no slaughterhouse. The Muhammadans ruled over India for eight hundred years, but there was not a single slaughterhouse. The slaughterhouse was introduced by the British government. Guest: In India? Prabhupāda: In India. The Muhammadans sometimes used to kill cow, but that was in the masjid during their Bakrid ceremony. Not daily. That also very secretly. The Muhammadans king, er, emperor, he knew that it would hurt the Hindu sentiment. He did not allow publicly. It was the creation of the British government to encourage, and our leaders, they were made in London, and they advocated, "Yes. Whatever is introduced by Britishers is all right." (laughter) Guest: I would like to ask another question. The Muhammadans . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): He says that other religions have their books. Which book does Kṛṣṇa have? Śyāmasundara: Ah, he thinks that Kṛṣṇa dreamed of this religion, or it came to Him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): He says that the Muhammadans are having a book like . . . Guest (4): The Koran was founded by the Bible. Prabhupāda: Oh! Guest: It was written from the Bible. What book . . . what is the foundation of Kṛṣṇa religion . . . Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (2): He says that Muhammadans, they translated the Bible and then they made the Koran as their holy book, from where they take their all the source of their knowledge and all these things, inspiration. Now the people, the Kṛṣṇa conscious people, from what book do they get their source of inspiration from, which book or . . . Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the Bible got their inspiration? First of all let me know. As you say that the Muhammadan Koran was taken from Bible. Is it not? Anyway, you say. So wherefrom the Bible was taken? Guest (2): From where is the Bible? Guest: The Bible as we read was founded by prophets. Prabhupāda: Huh? As the Koran has a history, the Bible has a history also. Guest: So in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that history? What is that history? Wherefrom the Bible was inspired? Guest: (indistinct) . . . the disciples, the disciples . . . (indistinct) . . . performance of God . . . (indistinct) . . . different times . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So similarly, the Koran has been taken from Bible, and the Bible is from the disciples of God . . . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . then what is the wrong in the Koran? Guest: No, we wanted to know whether there was . . . (indistinct) . . . how was this thing founded? Where did He get His things from? Prabhupāda: Religion . . . the original religion is founded by God. Guest: But what is the root of it? Prabhupāda: God is the root of it, because God's parts and parcels have come to the material world to enjoy. So God has given that, "All right, you have come here to enjoy. You enjoy in this way, then you will in due course of time, you will again come back to Me." Guest: So God spoke to what religion? Prabhupāda: Eh? What? Whom He spoke, that is different thing. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is the principle. Śyāmasundara: He says, did God speak through Lord Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: No, no. Speak through Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is God himself. Not through, but He is God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . God. Devotee (2): No, He is God. Guest: Oh, He's God, God Himself. Prabhupāda: That's it. Guest: . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God. Guest: It means that anything that is blessed, anything that is attractive, that is our own God . . . (indistinct) . . . then Kṛṣṇa has got thousands of ladies . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): Something good or something nice. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda has not said that. Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: The question was that it was said that God has many names; He is unlimited. So the question was, well, does it mean that one can just have any name, and that becomes a name of God? One can make up any name? Prabhupāda: "Any name" means must have some meaning. Guest: (indistinct) . . . say if there's something very good. Say you make a watch, which is . . . Prabhupāda: Not any name is God, but God has many names. Try to understand this. Guest: Because according to . . . Prabhupāda: God is unlimited, so He has got unlimited names. But not that any name is God. Guest (4): That is true. Prabhupāda: Try to understand this. Guest (2): Just like sun . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Say sun, sun, it was in our language we call it sūrya . Somebody might be calling it something else, but it is the same thing, how one calls. Prabhupāda: Either you call sun, or sūrya , the object is the same. Guest (2): The object is the same. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, any name which clarifies God, that is God's name. There is Kṛṣṇa, "all*-attractive." If this "all-attractive" name is applicable to God, then it is God's name. Also, kṛṣṇa means "black"; *that is another meaning. But if God is not all*-attractive, then how He can be God? Guest: (indistinct) . . . which is attractive, to meet God, love God . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . if you give Him a name which is attractive? Prabhupāda: It is not attractive, but any . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . Prabhupāda: God. Guest: (indistinct) . . . the sunshine is not enough. Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness? Brahmānanda: Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness? *Prabhupāda: Well, unless one is holy, how he can be all*-attractive? Unholy, how he can be attractive? Guest: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Is a rogue attractive? Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Is a thief attractive? Guest: Something is there, but it won't last. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . a thief is attractive by his personality, but not by his heart. Guest (2): So he is not fully attractive. Prabhupāda: Hmm. But still, you cannot worship a thief. Guest: No, I don't think I can do it. *Prabhupāda: A thief may be attractive to a certain person, but he is not all*-attractive. One who is thief, he can appreciate a big thief. (laughter) That is another thief. But a thief is not all-attractive. Then if a thief . . . if somebody says: "One thief is coming to your home at night," oh, he becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . to your house. Devotee (3): But Kṛṣṇa can become a thief and be attractive. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Guest (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa is so qualified. Just like the moon. There are spots in the moon—nobody considers about the spots. Everyone takes moon, "Oh, here is moon." Nobody considers. Eko 'si doṣāya, guni sanga parte nirvadyati . Kṛṣṇa has no fault. Even we take it as fault, one who has got many qualities, a little fault even there is, it is not taken account of. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). *Just like the sun: the sun is absorbing water from seas and oceans, and he is also absorbing water from your urine. So nobody is taking account, "Oh, sun is taking water from the urinal." (laughter) Immediately it can purify. By sun's touch the urine becomes pure. Even there is something faulty, by Kṛṣṇa's touch it becomes purified. That is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is all*-attractive. The same example: the sun is absorbing water from the urinal. Is sun polluted? Can you say: "Oh, the sun has taken water from urine, so it has become polluted"? Can you say that? Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya . Therefore anyone who is very powerful, he has no fault. Even if you find some fault in him, there is no fault actually. But even if you think that it is fault, it is not taken. Sūrya , by absorbing urine, it is making purified that place. But if you say: "Oh, the sun is evaporating urine—it has become polluted," that is your shortness of understanding. That sūrya is purifying that place, very, very . . . (indistinct) Guest: How do they appear? . . . (indistinct) . . . came into this world? Brahmānanda: How long ago did Kṛṣṇa come into this world? Prabhupāda: Five thousand years. Guest: Five hundred years. Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Guest: Five thousand years. Prabhupāda: Five thousands of years. Guest: So two thousand years . . . Prabhupāda: Three thousand B.C. Guest: Three thousand B.C. Now if . . . (indistinct) . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa attending the school or any society before He became a God? Brahmānanda: Did Kṛṣṇa attend any school or any society before He became a God? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: He was born. Prabhupāda: He was God from His childhood, from His babyhood. Guest: He was born. Prabhupāda: Since He was born. Guest: Like Jesus? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: He is like Jesus? Prabhupāda: But I don't think Jesus was Christ from the very beginning. He was given the title when he was perfect. Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: He was given the title of Christ when he was perfect. Guest: When he was baptized. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: When he was baptized? Prabhupāda: Well, I don't know much about Jesus Christ. Guest: But how it is that Lord Kṛṣṇa exists now? Prabhupāda: Now first of all we are speaking of the philosophy of God. When you understand the philosophy of God, then you can question. Guest: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 24, 1971, Nairobi Guest: Is there any necessity of being seated in the position we are now here? That must be a simple question for them, if one doesn't know how to act, because . . . Prabhupāda: Is there necessity . . .? Śyāmasundara: To be . . . as we sitting in this manner. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. Śyāmasundara: To be situated . . . (indistinct) Guest: Before I . . . Prabhupāda: Sit in certain posture? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: There is necessity to sit down in a certain posture? You ask like this? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . Guest: So there's no rules governing that? Prabhupāda: No. You sit like a gentleman, that's all. Guest: I see. When we are going to live today in the present world, we are having people who are having . . . I mean, we, we are told adultery is bad. Isn't it? Śyāmasundara: Adultery? Guest: That for me, adultery. Śyāmasundara: Adultery. Prabhupāda: Yes. Adultery is . . . Brahmānanda: Adultery—is that sex out of marriage? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And we are also told by . . . other people mention from the world that you should never divorce except on the account of adultery. Those are two questions. Third question is the present birth control that is being practiced, if it is good—to practice birth control as far as the Kṛṣṇa society is concerned. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa society prohibits illicit sex. Illicit sex. Guest: Illicit sex. Yes. *Prabhupāda: And in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi ( BG 7.11). Kāma , lust, sex desire. Kṛṣṇa says that sex desire, which is not against the religious principles. "That I am." Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi . *How to realize Kṛṣṇa? In the every step of life you can realize God, provided you practice it. That is called bhakti*-yoga , that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8), "I am the taste of the water." So everyone drinks water and feels satisfaction. When he is thirsty and he drinks water, he becomes satisfied with the taste of the water. So Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste." So how one can say that, "I do not know God. I have not seen God. I have no experience of God"? God says: "Here is, I am." *Similarly, He says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ (BG 7.8): "I am the shining of the sun, of the moon." So who has not seen the shining of the sun or the moon? Everyone has seen. So how do they say that, "Can you show me God?" Why don't you see God here? Why don't you see God in the taste of water? Why don't you see God in the sun shining. Why don't you see God in moonshine? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says, dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi (BG 7.11): the lust, in the lust desire, there is also God. So what is that? What kind of lust? Dharmāviruddho : which is not against religious principles. *So this sex life is not denied, because eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is the necessity of the body. You cannot stop it. So there is concession that you can have sex life only for begetting children—for no other purpose. If you use sex life for any other purpose, that is against religious principles. There are other rules and regulations—that you can have sex with your wife five days after menstrual period, and if she is pregnant, then you cannot have sex life. So if you have sex life more than this, that is against religious principles. And if you become against religious principles, then you become sinful. And if you become sinful, then you cannot make progress towards God*-realization. *Because sinful man cannot make progress in God*-realization. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished his business in sinful activities, janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām —that simply they are engaged in pious activities—such persons, dvandva-moha-nirmuktā , becomes delivered from all dualities, and dvandva-moha , bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ , then become perfect devotee. *So all these restrictions—illicit sex life, gambling, meat*-eating, intoxication—are prohibited just to give you protection from sinful life. Because if you remain sinful, then you cannot make progress in God-realization. Therefore these restrictions are there, no adultery. In one word, no illicit sex. Even if you have sex life with your wife beyond that limit—only once in a month after menstrual period, five days—that is also illicit sex. Illicit sex. So because the basic principle is that if you become more and more materially attached, then you cannot become free from this material bondage. Our present problem is that we are bound up by the material laws, guṇamayī māyā . We are strictly bound up. Just like even in your ordinary dealings, suppose if you eat more, oh, then immediately there will be indigestion. Suppose salt—salt is very important item for our eating—but if salt is put more in the vegetable, you cannot take it. And if there is no salt, oh, you cannot take it, oh "Give a little salt." So we have to take salt exactly to the amount which is necessity, nothing more, nothing less. That is nature's law. So if you violate nature's law, then you become immediately entrapped. Therefore these things are prohibited if you really require liberation. But people do not understand that, "I am in a very miserable condition of life." That is māyā . Just like Mr. Patel was complaining of so many things, "I am in a miserable condition of life." So we are entrapped by these material laws, and beyond this material life there is another life. That you do not know. And human life is meant for becoming prepared to go back to that life, because we are eternal. Guest: Eternal life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Eternal life. We are eternal, but at the present moment we have no eternal life. Guest: What is that eternal life? Would you . . . (indistinct) . . . for me? Prabhupāda: Eternal life means that there is no birth, death, disease and old age. That is eternal life. Guest: When is that going to be? Prabhupāda: When you come to the spiritual platform, that is possible. Guest: Is there any eternal life, other life, than the one we have at the moment . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. Guest: . . . which is more supernatural? Prabhupāda: Yes. Supernatural. Yes. That is . . . Guest: Will that be in a gathering of people where people would be living together? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There are many people. Here in this non*-eternal life only a fragmental portion of the living entities—fragmental portion. All the living entities within this universe . . . this is one universe. There are unlimited, innumerable universes. *Just like you will see innumerable planets within this one universe, similarly, there are innumerable universes—innumerable suns, moons and other planets—and all of them combined together, that is the one*-fourth manifestation of God creation. That is stated: ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42). *Guest: So this is the conclusive evidence that there will be . . . the so*-called, the system of faith that is God, who brings men to the world, is it? And then you go to the new world? Is that what it means? The supernatural life for which I think one would not attain in the present world . . . Prabhupāda: As you are combination . . . just try to understand. You are combination of matter and spirit. You are talking with me. You are thinking that you are talking with your tongue or with your intelligence, with your brain, but one thing is there. As soon as that spirit soul is gone from you, the tongue will remain there, the brain substance will remain there, but no more talking. If you are thinking that the tongue is talking, the brain is talking, that is mistake. The soul is talking through the instrument of the tongue and brain. So these instruments are material; *therefore they are temporary. Anything material is temporary. The material law is that anything is born and manufactured at a certain date, it remains for some time, then there are some by*-products, then there is deterioration, then it is finished. This is the material world. So you have got a body, material body, which is born at a certain date. It will continue to a certain date. It will expand, it will give some by-products, then it will be old or deteriorate, and then it will be finished. And I am identifying with this body; therefore I am thinking that I am also finished with this body. But I am not finished. *Guest: So life is the by*-product of an individual? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guest: So it means life is a by*-product . . . Prabhupāda: Life is . . . at present moment we have got a short duration of life to fulfill a certain program. That's all. That is called karma . And when this body is finished, then you begin another chapter. That chapter may be very good or very bad, because good and bad, both things are there in the material world. There are 8,400,000's forms of life. Just like we are a human being, but your form of life is different from his form of life; his form of life is different from his form of life. Why? Because according to my desire and karma I have got a particular type of body. Similarly, in this life also, according to the particular type of work and mentality and everything, you will get another body. But all these lives are temporary—for a few years. That is our material condition. Everyone likes to have a permanent settlement; that is inner dictation. But nature will not allow. That is nature's law. Therefore the solution of problems means how to get out of the clutches of the material laws and come to the spiritual platform. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). So we are giving people the clue to understand the value of this life and prepare oneself in this life, so that next life we can get permanent life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: That is why one should do good things. Prabhupāda: Yes, definitely. If you want to be cured . . . just like if you are diseased, if you want to be cured, the physician gives you prescription, something do's and something do not's—"Do not this," and "Do this"—if you are serious about curing a disease. Similarly, if you want to cure your this material disease—material disease means birth, death, old age and disease—then you have to accept some regulative life, some do's and some do not's. Just like we are prescribing, very simple, these students, that "You chant sixteen rounds; *that's minimum—at least sixteen rounds, Hare Kṛṣṇa." It is not difficult. And you do not, don't have illicit sex life, don't have intoxication, don't have meat*-eating, don't do gambling. So these are the five regulative . . . four regulative principles, and chant. Very simple. Anyone can do it. So these boys and girls, they are Europeans, Americans; from their birth they are habituated to these habits. But they have stopped, and they are not unhappy. So our program is only very simple, but improvement is very quick and evident—that you can see. What do you think, Mr. Patel? The improvement, the world is astonished. The Americans are asking them, "Are you Americans?" They could not imagine. Even the government, they are asking, "How you have stopped intoxication? We are spending so much money for stopping intoxication, LSD." But they have given up. As soon as they come to be initiated, entering. I say: "Stop this," immediately they stop. How they can stop? Guest: But there are people who don't take the intoxicants, neither do they smoke, neither do they do all sort of bad things, but still they follow . . . (indistinct) . . . no sex—that they follow. Where do those people stand? Prabhupāda: You see, I said there are some do not's and several do's—so they are following both. The do's they are also following. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . That will give you protection. Simply negating will not do. Just like a child, if you say: "Don't play," now, he can stop for some time, but if you don't give him some engagement and education then he will create mischief. Similarly, simply do not's will not help. You have to accept do's also, then your life will be successful. They have accepted more do not's than the do's. So anyone who takes up this training and then he becomes purified, and as soon as he becomes purified he will successfully goes back to home, back to Godhead. You have to change your body, that's a fact, or you have to die. So after death we have got a program: home, very nice home. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9): one does not come back to take birth in this material world. Then where does he go? As the atheist philosopher says, that after the destruction of this body, is everything finished? No. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti : "He comes to Me." Guest: Is it that all material things has got a beginning and an end, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Now, it means our world is material, so . . . finish Prabhupāda: Yes, this world will all finish. Guest: Everything will eventually end. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And where shall we be, all the living creatures, then? Prabhupāda: At that time? Guest: The material world is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated: prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikām (BG 9.7). Just like you are, when you are dead, your body is dead, then where do you live? You get another body. But not that immediately you get another body. Guest: Immediately. Prabhupāda: No, no. After end of this body you get another body. Guest: After how long? Prabhupāda: Therefore I said after how long, how? So the intermediate period you live somewhere—that you live in the womb of your mother, next body. Death means seven months, dreaming. That is death. Guest: Ah. I have proof that there is a country called America already, and I have proof there is place known as India, because some patients have gone to India and back here. So they are mean the truth, to us, India. Americans have gone to America and Britain—to Britain, the United Kingdom—and they have already come back here to confirm to us that there is such a place called . . . (indistinct) . . . has it ever been proved by any people . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many, many times. Guest: . . . that people are given new bodies and they come to the world and live? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many. Therefore you accept the statement of the authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter in Bhagavad*-gītā , you'll see, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This system of yoga , first of all I explained to the sun-god." *So Arjuna inquired that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are born with me, You are contemporary, of the same age. How can I believe that You instructed this yoga system to the sun*-god that lives in the some millions of years ago?" So Kṛṣṇa answered that "Both you and Me had many births, many births, but you have forgotten—I remember." That is the difference between God and ordinary humans. We may forget, but God does not forget, or very highly elevated devotees of God, they also do not forget. So we get information from such persons: God, Nārada Muni, Vyāsadeva, Asita—many. There are many. We get information from them. Just like you get any information. Suppose people are going to the moon planet. You read in the papers, "The American scientists, they have gone to the moon planet." So you believe it. Is it not? But you did not go there personally; how do you believe it? Guest: Because they have been there and they can tell. Prabhupāda: Therefore. Kṛṣṇa is personally telling, Nārada is personally telling. Where have got experience. Guest: Kṛṣṇa died in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . nobody dies. You do not die, I do not die, Kṛṣṇa do not die—nobody dies. But you don't remember; Kṛṣṇa remembers. That's all. Guest: He died, and then He was born again. Prabhupāda: Nobody dies. Why do you say "die"? I say nobody dies. Guest: What happens? Prabhupāda: Change body. Nobody dies. First of all try to understand this. Just like if you change your this coat. Does it mean that you die? You may appear next day with another coat. You do not die. Just like in this life you had a body of childhood body, you had the body like a boy, you had a body like a . . . so you remember all these things, but "Yes, I had this body." So that body has gone, but you are still there. Guest: How many times does one die? How many times does one . . .? Prabhupāda: Unless he goes back to . . . unless he becomes liberated, goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has to die, take birth, repeatedly. Guest: So you can go . . . do you know the Christians? Prabhupāda: Don't bring in Christian and Hindu. Talk of philosophy. We are talking of philosophy. Guest: No, you see, it is a fact that I am dragging up, when I say: "Do you know them?" I know that you've heard of them, even if you have never associated with them. But they say that there is a place called the paradise. I never seen the place, nobody has ever seen the place. Prabhupāda: So how do they say? Guest: They say the world will end. Prabhupāda: Therefore how do they say? Guest: Unless people will be taken somewhere else. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How do they say? How . . .? You believe them? Guest: They say it. Prabhupāda: But they say, but you believe them? Guest: Well, that was the only form of worshiping that we had. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If it is stated in Christian religion like that, where do they take the authority for such statement? Guest: Where do they get . . .? Prabhupāda: Just like, the same instance, just like you believe that the Americans or the Russians went to this moon planet. So how do you believe it? Guest: I believe because somebody went there and back. Prabhupāda: That somebody you have not met. That is a scientist, it is stated in the paper. That means by the statement of the paper you believe it, because you take the paper as authority. Is it not? Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: You did not go, but you read in the paper, and you take the authority of the paper; therefore you believe it. Guest: I believe through the paper. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, we believe from the *Vedas* . Guest: Now we also believe in this through the paper. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You believe through the papers; we believe through the Vedic knowledge. Devotee: *Vedas* . Brahmānanda: Scripture Devotee: Veda . Guest: Faith. Devotee: No, no. Veda . Prabhupāda: Veda , the original book of knowledge. Veda means the original book of knowledge. *Mr. Patel: Have you seen this Vedic House? Vedic House, next to Barclays Bank? There is a Vedic House, v-e-d-i-c, Vedic House. It is from that word, you know, v-e-d*-a . Veda means knowledge. Guest: Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: There is authoritative Vedas that is coming, time immemorial, and the system of Vedic civilization is that if it is stated in the Vedas , we accept it. That is truth. Śruti*-pramāṇa . It is called śruti . Vedas another name is śruti . Śruti . So śruti-pramāṇa . Whenever we require any evidence, if it is stated in the Vedas . . . that example I have given several times, those who are followers of Vedas , just like cow dung. Cow dung. You understand cow dung? Guest: Cow dan? Prabhupāda: Cow dung! Devotee: (translates) Guest: Cow dung. Yes. Prabhupāda: That is the stool of an animal. In the *Vedas* you will find that if you touch the stool of an animal, you become impure. Immediately you should wash. The Hindus, the Vedic followers, they do it—as soon as they touch even his own stool, goes to the toilet. And because the stool is already there in the belly, in the abdomen, but as soon as it comes out I become impure. That is Vedic system. You cannot argue. The stool is already there in the abdomen, and if it has come out, so how I become impure? But *Vedas* say: "Yes, you become impure. You immediately take your bath and wash your cloth." So the Vedic Indians, they are following. Similarly, again the Veda says that if you touch the stool of the cow you become pure. Now you can argue, "How is that? Once you said that if you touch the stool of an animal—human being is also animal—you become impure. Then how you say that cow dung is pure? It is speculative contradiction." But all Hindus, they take cow dung as pure. In the morning they'll bring cow dung and put with water and smear all over the houses, and you will find practically it starts . . . mopping with cow dung is there, even if it is very filthy place, immediately you will find refreshing. Immediately. In the village they haven't got big houses like this. They have got, I mean to say, huts, but the cleanliness is with cow dung. Is it not? Devotee: True, yes. Prabhupāda: So this cow dung is the stool of an animal. You can argue that "When I touch my own stool I become impure, now you say the stool of an animal, cow, that is pure?" That's a fact. We can see practically. Therefore if you want to make research, you can go on, but if you take directly knowledge from *Vedas* you save time. You get the thing immediately. That is Vedic knowledge. Therefore the Vedic civilization is that whatever I say, if it is confirmed by the Vedic statement, then my word is perfect. I don't require to make research. That is the Vedic system . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda , Danur Veda , Yajur Veda , so many *Vedas* . *Vedas* mean knowledge, perfect knowledge. Therefore Vedic followers. What is that? Vedic House? *Mr. Patel: It's the property of Ārya*-samāj . Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the word is Vedic. So Vedic knowledge is perfect. But unfortunately we interpret Vedic knowledge. That is nonsense. If we interpret, then what is the authority of *Vedas* ? If you want to take Vedic version by checking with your imperfect knowledge or senses, then that Vedic knowledge becomes subservient to your test. That is nonsense. Therefore we, we do not change a single word. We take it as it is. That is accepted. The same example: *Vedas* says the cow dung is pure—we take it immediately, without any argument. We don't argue. What is the use of argument? It is confirmed. Vedic knowledge is perfect, whatever knowledge is given there, that is perfect, so why shall I argue? If I argue, then where is the perfection? If Vedic knowledge is depending on my test, then where is the authority? I am an imperfect person, and if *Vedas* have to be accepted by my imperfect test, then what is the authority of *Vedas* ? Guest: But then, Swāmījī, those who are ignorant, to them the question should be raised. *Prabhupāda: The ignorant . . . Veda is for the ignorant. Because we are ignorant, therefore we have to take shelter of the Vedic knowledge. That is Vedic injunction: tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just like you go to school, you take the assistance of a teacher and become educated. Similarly, you have to take the knowledge, Vedic knowledge, from the real person who has learned Vedas by the disciplic succession. That is the way. You cannot interpret. Just like we are preaching. What we are preaching? The same way, the Vedic knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says— Bhagavad*-gītā is Vedic knowledge—so Kṛṣṇa says: So what is our business? Our business is to speak the same thing. We are teaching, or propagating, asking people that, "You take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." *So we have no difficulty. But because we are speaking the same truth as it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it has become successful. That's . . . (indistinct) . . . I have not manufactured anything. What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Everyone knows Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I am preaching them properly, it has became success. Just see. Within four and five years it has spread all over the world. So only technique is that I am not adulterating it. That is my credit. That's all. And what is that credit? It is very easy. Kṛṣṇa says: I say to my disciples, "Here is Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Just surrender, and your life is successful," and they are doing that. There is nothing difficult, simply you have to take as it is. That is the authority of *Vedas* . As soon as you interpret, you become rascal, immediately. Then there is no effect. *Just like if a doctor says: "Take this medicine in such*-and-such dose," and if you say: "No, let me add something," it will not be effective. The same way, just like I have said, you can take salt in such proportion. You cannot take more, you cannot take less. This is Vedic knowledge. You cannot interpret a single word. You have to take it as it is; then it will be effective. And it is practically being done. I am very careful not to adulterate, and that it is effective. *They are also following my instruction as it is in the Vedas . Kṛṣṇa says, yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So these four pillars of pāpaṁ , sinful life, I say: "Don't do this," then they are following. I say: "Chant", the Veda says: I say: "Oh, you must chant. It is the injunction." That is the relationship between the spiritual master, ācārya , and the disciple. Ācārya must know what is there in the Vedic śāstra , and he personally accept it and teach to his disciples. If that is done, the work is done. So if the ācārya is adulterated, if the student is adulterated, then it will not take place. So strictly, no other version—then you will find it effective, immediately. Just like a woman and man, sexual intercourse. If the man is powerful, he has got real strength, there is pregnancy. And if the woman is not . . . (indistinct) . . . there is pregnancy. Similarly, if the student and the master is pure and his instruction is pure, then there will be effect. There is no jugglery or magic. They say: "Swāmījī, you have done magic," but I have not done anything magic. My magic is that I am presenting things as it is, and they are being accepted as it is, and it is being effective. There is no secret; it is open secret. Simply you have to take strictly, according to the principles. Then it will be effective. Guest: And therefore there is no question about the result? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: And therefore there will be no question . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Vedic knowledge. In Āyurveda , Āyurveda also, that I have . . . (indistinct) . . . studied, the system is that their basic principle of treatment is three elements: kapha , pitta , vāyu . The . . . within this body, these things are working. When they are working in parallel line, in order, there is no disease; there cannot be any disease—neutral state. *As soon as kapha , pitta , vāyu becomes increased, one's balance, then there are diseases. So that can be understood, that their only technique is to study this pulse*-beating. Therefore symptoms. If the pulse is beating like this, then it is due to increase of kapha; if the pulse is beating like this . . . that is their science. *So even in these days if you go to an experienced Āyurvedic physician, he will take half an hour at least to study how your pulse is beating. Nari*-jña it is called. And immediately he gives the pulse-beating to a formula. The formula: if the pulse is beating like this, then this is the disease, and this is the symptom. So immediately, according to that formula, he asks, "Do you get the symptom?" "Yes." "Do you get this? You do not like this?" "Yes." That is kapha . And immediately medicine is ready. For this symptom, this medicine give him. That is Āyurvedic system. *So in Āyurvedic system there is no experiment, there is no dissection, you see? There is no irregularities or blind . . . (indistinct) . . . so many . . . (indistinct) . . . experiment. Simply external. There is no big studies. And here, how the matter is simplified—simply you try to study the pulse*-beating, and the symptoms are stated in this . . . similarly, you are doing this. *But we understand from the Vedic knowledge that anyone who is sinfully attracted, he cannot have any God*-realization. So how do you make him . . . (indistinct) . . . Veda says, striyaḥ sūnā pāna dyūta yatrā pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Sinful life means these four things: illicit sex-life, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā . *These four kinds of sinful life is the pillars of all sinful life, and if you make a study that all sinful activities are going on on these four pillars: illicit sex life, gambling, meat*-eating and intoxication. When you become too much intoxicated, habituated to intoxicants, you don't, I mean to say, fear to become a thief, steal others' property. More and more you become implicated. The beginning is these things. So if you avoid these, then your sinful life is stopped, and as soon as your sinful life is stopped, you can realize God, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). So we have got very simple formula in the Vedic knowledge. People should simply agree to accept this; then their life is successful. That's all. But they do not agree, what can I do? So our business is . . . Guest: The difficulty . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: They recall their difficulty. Prabhupāda: There is nothing difficult. Guest: Those who are . . . *Prabhupāda: Then what they have got, this birth by . . . (indistinct) . . . you are thinking "difficult", what is difficult? But giving up meat*-eating, what is the difficulty? Guest: Some of the rules are rather difficult, you know. *Prabhupāda: It is thinking. Because that is māyā . You are thinking difficult. It is not at all difficult. How these boys, they gave up? Illicit sex*-life was their life, in Europe and America, from the very childhood. How they are giving up? Guest: Something for them, you know, the hidden pleasures, in taking . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you like you can give it up. That's possible. And that giving up, that status you can maintain if you do the do's. Chant—that will protect you. Both things. So the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . (aside) Aiye . . . is very simple, very, very simple, and there is no difficulty at all. Simply one must agree. (aside) Aiye . Guest: It is true. But to start with . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the process, sat*-saṅga . Therefore we are opening centers. You come to our association, like these boys. First of all they are not asked that, "You have to do this." No. If I ask, how they will do? No. If they come, that is also very nice process. If you simply come—you don't do this, simply go on hearing—you will be God conscious. But you do not come, you see? People are not coming. That means they have no meaning left. Guest: No, they don't want to do away with their old . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then if you need . . . if you don't want to do something, that is another thing. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: Out of many thousands and millions of people, one becomes interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not an ordinary thing. It is difficult, very difficult, but one intelligent person, although he knows it is very difficult: "Why not try?" And that is intelligence. What is the difficulty? Are they starving because they are not eating meat? We are giving them better food— kachorī , lucī , sandeśa , sweet balls, samosā and khicuṛi (devotees laugh)—anyone who comes, "Oh, it is very nice!" What is the loss there? Now here is a brahmacārī , here is a gṛhastha , here is a sannyāsa . According to suitability you can remain a brahmacārī or you can become a sannyāsa or you remain a gṛhastha . There is no such that "You have to become a sannyāsī ." No. You remain a gṛhastha , but don't spoil your life. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , you follow the rules and regulations of gṛhastha life, you become perfect. So for everyone there is chance, and it is not that . . . because according to Vedic system there are four castes: brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra and lower than the śūdras , pañcama . So it is not prohibited for anyone. I mean anyone can take—the brāhmin can take, the śūdra can take, the others who are less than śūdra , they can take. So the door is open for everyone. The matter is very simple. Simply you have to take it and become successful in your life. And the knowledge is perfect, from the *Vedas* , now it is up to you. You take it or don't take it, that is your business. So I am requesting you, you remain interested; instead of arguing continually, you please take to this business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda . Is that very difficult? Guest: Not necessarily. One can try. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: We are inviting come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , dance and take prasādam . That is also difficult, then what can be done? They are chanting, dancing—that's a pleasure—and after that, taking prasādam , that is another pleasure. That is also difficult, then what can be done? Guest: That's why there is no suffering. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then you must suffer. That is a fact. If there is dancing in the ball*-dance hall, thousands of people will go. But this dancing, nobody will come. That is māyā . Māyā dictates, "Oh, why you are going there? There is ball dance. Dance there." So we have to little protect ourselves from the dictation of māyā . That will also give strength. Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 4.11): if you become a little strong and determined, "No, no, I shall not go to the ball dance, I shall go to the Kṛṣṇa conscious dance," then your life is successful. That much determination you must have. That is up to you. And we are distributing this knowledge free. Such topmost knowledge, we are distributing free, don't charge. What is the loss? Suppose I ask you: "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds," it is very easy. So if you chant sixteen rounds Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , what is your loss? But if there is gain, why don't you take it? There is a story that an old woman was dying, and her son said: "Mother, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So when they were repeating, "Mother, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so she becomes disgusted, "Why? I cannot say so many words." "I cannot say so many words . . ." Guest: That she is already saying. Prabhupāda: . . . but not "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You see? There are four words only, Hare, Kṛṣṇa; two words. "Oh, I cannot say all in all." This is our position. We can waste our time in so many ways, but if I say to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, you'll disagree: "Oh, I cannot do it." This is our misfortune. So we have to become a little strong: "Yes, I must. I must." Then . . . (indistinct) . . . what is your loss? So that is our requirement, that: Very simple method. They will try to press the nose, to make the head down and make yoga , and he becomes God within six months—these cheating, these rascals are very . . . (indistinct) . . . and simple thing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds, they will not accept. What can be done? And the result is there. They are Americans; *what they want? That is a country of dollars. Earn ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty*-five dollars—so that is nothing in this country. Daily they can spend, even in one hour, they are so rich. Anyone can earn thousands of rupees in our Indian exchange. *Just like their lowest guarantee, four hundred dollars. So four hundred dollars in Indian exchange, four thousand rupees. So one who is making four thousand rupees per month, he is a rich man. And in America that is the lowest, that is the lowest, for the poorest man. And they are earning fifty thousand, twenty thousand, twenty*-five thousand. So money is nothing. *So they have got enough money, they have got enough women, they have got enough wine, enough slaughterhouse—but they are disgusted. Now the young boys and girls, they have become hippies, frustration. They think that there is no life. So if we imitate only on these four principles—enough woman, enough intoxication, enough meat*-eating, enough gambling—you pay, because you have already paid. It is a fact. Now it has become a problem; so many young men, they have become hippies, they are not working at all. You see? The government, without finding any other jobs, they have created this Vietnam—they are killing the boys. That's all. The Vietnam show is for killing these poor boys, that's all. They call draft, "Come on you go to war." But, they cannot check; they have no means. And here is the means Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Therefore they are taking. So you are growing nation. If you grow like the Americans and Europeans you will never be happy. You take this culture, you will be happy. That is the open secret. Nobody has become happy with this material advancement. So we do not check material advancement, but we simply want to change the consciousness. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like Arjuna, he was not stopped fighting. That is material. But his consciousness was changed. We wanted that. We do in that way. You do material advancement, but change your consciousness. That is our movement. Do not stop. Arjuna . . . Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna, "Oh, you take sannyāsa and go to the Himalaya and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." No. That is not our program. You do. You are Professor. You remain engaged in your occupational duties but be Kṛṣṇa conscious, sve karmaṇa , by your duty. Then you will get saṁsiddhiṁ , the highest perfection. He never said that "You stop your business, stop your profession, and go to Himalaya." No. He simply says chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then all the kind . . . (indistinct) . . . picture, where it was? Śyāmasundara: New Yorker Magazine ? Prabhupāda: Somewhere else. One old gentleman and old lady, the old lady requesting her husband: "Chant, chant, chant," and the old man is saying, "Can't, can't, can't." (laughter) This is the position. We are simply asking people, "Chant, chant, chant," and they are replying, "Can't, can't, can't." This is the rascaldom. If you simply say: "Yes, yes, yes," then everything, the whole thing will be saved. But they will not take it. They will say: "Can't, can't, can't." Guest: Swāmījī, what sort of power is in chanting the name, because . . . Prabhupāda: We associate with God. Guest: . . . but is it not that if you follow these actions, that is much more strong. Prabhupāda: What is that action? You are fools, rascals—what is your action? Now who is stronger? What is your action? What is the value of your action? Just like these children: what is the value of their action? They are simply to be protected from doing mischievous activities. If you are in knowledge . . . if you do not know the value of your life, what is the value of your activities? Guest: There could be majority, the mass of people who might be chanting the name, but if they don't know what they are chanting for, then . . . Prabhupāda: That they will know everything. They are simply chanting— sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Do you mean to say they are fools because they are chanting? Guest: No, but they are educated; they know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Educated or not educated, you may not . . . even one is not educated, he has no other business. That is the effect. *Vedas* says. Then you have to go to the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3): if you know the Supreme Absolute Truth, then everything becomes revealed to you. We are challenging so many philosophers, so many scientists. Does it mean that I was a student of science? No. But we can challenge, because the knowledge is revealed. Just like I told . . . (indistinct) . . . some reporter came to me, asked me: "Swāmījī, what is your opinion about this moon planet going?" I said, "It is simply waste of time and nonsense." I asked them, "Shall I speak plain, or shall I flatter you?" They said, "No, we speak plain." I said: "It is simply a waste of time and nonsense." So I'm not a scientist; *how could I say? How could I say? On the Vedic knowledge. Vedic version is, and Bhagavad*-gītā you will see: The moon planet is considered one of the planets of the demigods, so you have to become a devotee of that demigod or cultivate that knowledge. You hear, then you will get the body to be transferred in that planet. You cannot go in this body. Now how you can refute this argument? We get knowledge that unless they have trained themselves how to go to the moon planet, they cannot go. We take it. So therefore how much they may . . . how hard they may try to go there, they cannot go. How can I say? On the Vedic strength. We are not trained up. Just like one can see, suppose one African is trying to go to India or, say, UK. So if I see that he has not passport, he has not got passport and visa, then I can immediately, "No, you cannot go." There is no necessity of knowledge how I say. I say: "Because he has no passport and visa, he cannot go." Similarly, from the Vedic knowledge we understand unless one becomes a devotee of that particular type of demigod, he cannot go. Therefore we can say: "You cannot go." However they may try with this machine, that is not possible. This is perfect knowledge. I am not a scientist; I am not criticizing the scientific process. But because I know that the Veda says that they cannot go, I say: "You cannot go." *Now Veda says they cannot go, now we challenge. And so let the scientist come and prove. That is Vedic knowledge. Let them go. Now they are silent. By making so much false propaganda, now they are silent. They cannot go in this way, machine. You cannot go to America by force, by your machine. You have to take the visa, immigration visa. So how can you go to the moon planet? We get from the Vedic knowledge that in moon planet one gets ten thousand of years' life. And that planet is very cold. They drink soma*-rasa . They . . . all the Vedic scriptures. So on the Vedic scriptural strength we can challenge anyone. Therefore the Vedic knowledge says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati : if you simply understand the Absolute Truth, then you become . . . you know everything. Guest: Do you think that they have ever been to the moon now? Prabhupāda: Never! I challenge them. This is simply all propaganda. If they had been, then what they have gained? Why they do not go and make some business there? Guest: At the moment . . . Prabhupāda: They have brought some rocks and sand, that's all. Why they say there is no life? If the planet is there, we find that in experience that even within the earth there is living entity, within the water there is living entity, in the air there is living entity. And what moon planet has done there is no living entity? What is your answer? Although they have got some sands and rocks, the sands and rocks are there, and there is no living entity? How it is possible? By experience we see here, sands and rocks are there, but there are living entities; and there you have got sands and rocks but there is no living entities. First of all answer this challenge. And we get information from Vedic literature that there are demigods, they are very highly elevated, intellectual persons, they live for ten thousands of years. And these people say there is no life. Therefore we don't believe it. First of all show within your experience. Go anywhere—even in the desert there is living entity. (aside) What you are thinking? Devotee: I think that we should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . for distribution. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: For me go to the . . . (indistinct) . . . so there are many reasons, you see. If you study, if you accept the Vedic conclusion, you save so much time, so much time, and you get the right information. And that is perfection. So chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means associating with God directly. *So we are associating with God, then we become purified. Just like if you associate with fire you become warm, gradually, this is the example. You put one iron rod in the fire, it is warmer and warmer and warmer, and then it is red*-hot, and when it is red-hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch that iron rod anywhere, it will burn. Similarly, if you associate with God, then you become godly, you become purified. And the matter is so simple. The Vedic śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer . . . three times stating, "It is this, it is this, it is this." If you follow the Vedic instruction you will get success, without arguing. And what is the difficulty there? Guest: There's no difficulty. Prabhupāda: Then why there is argument? Why not try it? Such a simple method that even a child can do. If this child is asked: "You chant," she will chant directly. Such a yoga system that can be accepted by child even. And the Vedic knowledge says: "There is no other way, no other way, no other way." Why not take it? Why this obstinacy? That is our misfortune. Our program is very simple: come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dance with us. Even if you don't dance, take little prasādam , go away. Why there is so much objection to this? We don't ask anything, that "You pay here fifty dollars, and press your nose and make your hand and do that, so many." So what is the difficulty? We don't charge anything. Just try the method . . . (indistinct) . . . boli . Why there is objection? Just so you answer this, that why there is objection? This simple method, this sublime method, why there is objection? Guest: Can I tell you what I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Because there are so many institutions, there are so many sects, so many religious, I mean, erm . . . Prabhupāda: But here there is no religion, there is no sect. We call Indian, we call European, American, African, brahmin , kṣatriya , śūdra . At least here there is no sect. Why you are bringing "sects"? Guest: No, but at the moment . . . Prabhupāda: There may be so many rascals; that is another thing. Here there is no rascaldom. Here is taught that anyone, you are welcome. Where is the question of "sects" or "religion"? Guest: No, not over here, but I am telling . . . Prabhupāda: Don't bring in so many things. But why you are . . . Guest: Unless they are convinced or unless they see why . . . Prabhupāda: What are the convictions? What is the conviction? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the necessity of convictions? Guest: No, but there might be a ṛṣi . . . (indistinct) . . . there might be so many people telling them . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is misfortune only, that's all. Guest: They'll know the difference how the real faith, the real . . . Prabhupāda: The difference is already there, but they are rascals; *they do not know. It is stated very clear in the Vedic knowledge, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that: *Those who worship other demigods, they are rascals, hṛta*-jñānāḥ . That is clearly stated. So if you want to remain rascal, how I can be faulted? Hṛta-jñānāḥ . Because what does it mean, hṛta-jñānāḥ ? You know the Sanskrit? Guest: Little bit *Prabhupāda: Yes, hṛta*-jñānāḥ means one who has lost his intelligence. That means he's a rascal. This is clearly stated: *Even if you get result, results from the demigods, it is antava : it will be finished. It will be finished. Tad bhavaty al . . . therefore people who are alpa*-medhasām , less intelligent, they are satisfied with some temporary purpose, that's all. Now there is a . . . it is going on, Navaratri, Durgā. That's all right. Durgā will pay, dhanaṁ dehi vimukti bharyam dehi yaśo dehi rūpaṁ. All right, Goddess Durgā gives you. But how long you will enjoy this? *As soon as your body is finished, your beautiful wife, your money, your friend, everything's finished. Therefore, alpa*-medhasām : less intelligent. Their brain substance is very small, therefore they are after these things. The problem is eternal life. These are all clearly stated. But you don't accept the Vedas . That is the difficulty. Guest: Because they have not been preached in the true sense. Prabhupāda: If you want to remain here preaching, they are not coming; they are accepting. Guest: They will come. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. We have come out to preach. Guest: People will come . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . once they know. Because now they have become, what you call, they have reached to the saturated point. They have saturated. So many beggars . . . *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata*-dharma is the beginning. In the Bhāgavata it is stated, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). You read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Anything is that is going on in the name of religion, but it is simply cheating, that is thrown out. That also you cannot do properly at the present moment. Deva-pūjā , pūjayā , yajña , described in the śāstras , you cannot do. That is also simply humbug. There are so many rules and regulations for performing yajña; you cannot . . . therefore it is said: You cannot do it properly. Suppose you perform yajña . So where is the pure ghee , and so many tons? So what is the use of putting three . . . (indistinct) . . . of ghee and performing yajña ? People are so . . . because they want to be cheated, and they are cheated by the cheaters. That is the position. They want to be cheated. What can be done? If the cheaters see there is a very good market of being cheated, they will come: "Yes, I am God. I will make you God," and this and that. So these things should be stopped, and it should be taken: Any . . . (indistinct) . . . simple thing. (break) (indistinct Hindi) *Whatever your religion is, that's all right. By performing it very nicely, if you do not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, it is simply waste of time. Yes. Yes. So if you go, kindly help us. (break) . . . interpretation, so many ways, yet they are speaking nonsense. And therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Somebody says it is yogic bhakar , somebody it is jñānic bhakar , this bhakar , that bhakar . Guest: And then they become difficult to follow which one to follow, and so they become so much confused. So they are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. People, people should know that . . . they should be little intelligent. Therefore without being intelligent you cannot make progress. Ignorance is the cause of all difficulties. So Bhagavad*-gītā , if you have read Bhagavad-gītā , it is said there that Bhagavad-gītā is being preached to Arjuna, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I am teaching this Bhagavad-gītā again. *Although I taught this philosophy to the sun*-god so many millions of years ago, again I am teaching the same to you." "Why? To me? There are so many others." He says: "No," bhakto 'si , "because you are My devotee." Now how one can understand Bhagavad-gītā who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: What right you have got? He means to preach this philosophy to the devotees. How the non*-devotees, they can understand? They do not understand Bhagavad-gītā , still they write commentary. Suppose I am a preacher of spiritual subject matter, and Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a goldsmith. So if I write on a book on goldsmith, what is the value of this book? Is there any value? So Bhagavad-gītā is meant for devotee. Why the other rascals write on commentation? Simply waste their time and mislead others. This is going on. Guest: The same thing has happened here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere it is happening, the whole world over. We are touring all over the world, simply people are being cheated. And they want to be cheated. Guest: And now if you bring truth in front of them, still they will say that . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . what can be done? (break) Guest: . . . thinking that people will come here, we might have to go to them, you know, expecting them here. Prabhupāda: Well, we can do any way . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: This kīrtana will go on nicely. So only you have got only mṛdaṅga ? Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think more are coming from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Means? (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śyāmasundara called me. *Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. At least four khols you have to have. Four khols and sixteen men, that is party. Yes. And one leading singer and one dancer. That makes complete party. Twenty, twenty*-two men. So where is Śyāmasundara? Devotee: I didn't find him. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: I didn't find him anywhere. Prabhupāda: He is not here? Lady devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Resting? He went to bed very late last night? Hmm. Lady devotee: He just wanted to finish that . . . (indistinct) . . . he was trying to finish the Māyāpur thing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that's all right.Then he may not come. So you can speak some discussion from our books? You can see, he is very great speaker, Viṣala prabhu. Viṣala: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣala: I cannot speak. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. *Viṣala: I've been reading the Brahma*-saṁhitā , and uh, by His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, and he mentions that to receive the mercy of . . . Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one has to be free of all mundane desires, and also he has to receive the grace of God at the same time. So it's all . . . it's like the son, he mentions . . . He doesn't know how wealthy his father is, but by the grace of his father, he says: "My dear son, I have a lot of money and I . . . you will be in my will, and you will have this all, and I will give you all these instructions." So similarly, by finally, gradually becoming free of all mundane desires and completely being influenced by the cit potency, by the superior cognitive energy of Lord Kṛṣṇa, one will receive the mercy of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. But the most important thing is to receive the mercy of the spiritual master, because only by the guru's mercy can one be blessed by God. So that means we have to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Next? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's been reading your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam every morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've been reading Śrīla . . . Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes, read. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I get a copy of that? Prabhupāda: So here is a microphone. You did not know? Śrīmatī has brought two microphones. Śyāmasundara: Oh, Uher's? Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. Gurudas: There's tapes also. Devotee (2): Wonderful. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: Tapes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Devotee (2): See if it works? Prabhupāda: Yes. Whenever somebody comes from there, something must be brought, because these things are not available. (break) . . . Indian, you cannot excel in mechanical knowledge than the Europeans, American. That is not possible. We will always remain hundred years back. Everyone has got some special talent given by God. We should cooperate. That's it. Just like the hand can work in this way. We cannot walk with hands. That is the business of the hand. Similarly, I cannot cut the papers with leg. So all living entities are endowed with special . . . we should cooperate. The hand and leg should cooperate for maintaining the whole body. Similarly, everyone should use his talent for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Not compete with one another. That is mistake. No (laughs). Śyāmasundara: (unwrapping package) It's not the microphone. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I don't think it's the microphone. (break) So should we send these . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . I wrote. They never reply. Śyāmasundara: It's such a big company, they . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know what kind of big company, and their publication we do not get in India. Why? . . . (indistinct) . . . publication, several . . . (indistinct) . . . we cannot get in Macmillan Company. Sometimes somebody inquires, they reply that, "We have not published this book." Just see. Yes. They have no information. Lady devotee: We can show that one copy of that letter, and what can they do to us? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee: If they try to stop us from printing, we can show them the copy of that letter that says they do not publish, and then what can they do? We have a copy of . . . Prabhupāda: I think we can publish all books here, because the agreement is made in USA. It has nothing to do within India. Indian law is different. Śyāmasundara: I think it's a world copyright, or else we could publish in Japan also. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I think this is a world copyright, or else we would be able to publish in Japan, in . . . Prabhupāda: So Japan is out of world? Śyāmasundara: It's out of US. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: It's out of the USA. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Like India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: I think their copyright . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Śyāmasundara: . . . is binding around the world. Prabhupāda: If they want to publish, let them publish. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I offered them that, "We are going to publish." So there was no reply. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: They did not comment and . . . Śyāmasundara: You already offered. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we go chant our rounds now? Prabhupāda: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances and leave) (break) Prabhupada: (indistinct Hindi) . . . bhai ji bhi aye the . . . (indistinct) . . . (brother had also come . . . (indistinct) . . .) Indian Guest: Uski behen bhi ayi thi Los Angeles se, humare bade bhai hai na apse Calcutta me mile the . . . (break) . . . to ab apki agya ho (break) (His sister had also come from Los Angeles, my elder brother who met you in Calcutta . . . (break) . . . if your grace permits (break)) Prabhupada: (indistinct Hindi) . . . but one thing is that, all right, he can go as my relative, because as visitor if he goes, then he cannot be admitted in school. Lalaji: That's right. Prabhupāda: But if he goes as my unmarried grandson . . . Lalaji: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . then he can get. So that will be done. Ye tum pas kar lo, tumko le jayenge. (You pass this then I will take you.) So your sons are very good sons. I have got all blessings for them. Ab tum kab bhul ho gaya, humko malum nahi. (When did you become bad, I don't know.) Lalaji: Mai to apka ekmatra ladka hu, apka sabhi koi. (I am your only son, all your . . .) you have so many grandsons, but I am the one erratic son, bad son. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lalaji: Wo ap meri thodi si ek problem solve kar dijiye Prabhupāda (Please solve just one of my problems Prabhupāda,) then I will come. Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Lalaji: Yehi material problems hai thodi, ladkiyon ki shadi hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ap jante hai Hindu samaj. (These material problems like getting my daughters married . . . (indistinct) . . . you know how Hindu Community works.) Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, hum to . . . (No, no, I . . .) I never told you that you give up your family life, but in family life you just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lalaji: Wo to mai karta hu Prabhupāda thoda bohot, mai karta hu. (That I do a little bit, Prabhupāda, I do.) Prabhupāda: Thoda bohot nahi, full. Ab tumhara ye pita hai na tum iske pita ho, bolo? (Not a little bit, it has to be done full (laughs). Is he your father or are you his father, tell?) Lalaji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yehi hai. Tumhara kya ray hai? Ye tumhara pitaji ye hi pita hai ki tumhara pitaji inka pita hai? (What is your opinion? Is he your father or are you his father, tell?) There, there was a similar case in Lord Caitanya's time. The son became first a great devotee. So when the father came, then Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then . . . (indistinct) . . . then the father said, "No. He is my father." (laughs). To kya subject matter hai tumhara, BMA? (So what subject matter are you studying, BMA?) Lalajis Son: BMA, general arts . . . (indistinct) . . . politics and economics, Hindi, English Prabhupāda: Political Economics and? Lalajis Son: Hindi aur English. (Hindi and English.) Prabhupāda: Hindi aur . . . (Hindi and . . .) Lalajis Son: Che subjects hai. (Six subjects are there.) Prabhupāda: That's nice. So their work is proposed to . . . Lalaji: I think he should go there to study something, earn some money. That's all. Ap kahe to mai bhi chala jata hu. (If you say then I can also go.) Prabhupāda: Huh? *Lalaji: Ap kahe to, apki agya ho to Nandini ko prasad*-vasad banane ke liye waha . . . (indistinct) . . . lekin jaise ki ap uchit samjhe. (If you say, if you permit it then I can also help Nandini with cooking the prasad . . . (indistinct) . . . but whatever you feel is right.) Prabhupāda: Nahi, nahi abhi . . . (indistinct) . . . (No no, not now . . . (indistinct) . . .) Lalaji: Mujhe Bharat bhumi se bohot prem hai. (I love the land of India a lot.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: Mujhe Bharat bhumi se prem bohot hai. (I really love the land of India.) Prabhupāda: Congress man hai na. (You are a Congress Party member that is why.) Lalaji: (laughs) Ap jante hai jivika uparjana ke liye Congress me kam karta hu, ye to ap shuru se hi jante the. (You already know that I work for the Congress just to earn my living.) *Prabhupāda: To usme shastra me usko zyada credit nahi diya gaya. (So the scriptures haven't given much credit to this.) Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tridhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13). Bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . Ye jo nationalism hai, ye bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . . (This nationalism, this bhauma ijya-dhīḥ . . .) the conception of worshiping the land, bhauma . Bhauma means land, bhūmi . Ijya , ijya means worshipable. So one who thinks that bhauma , bhūmi , anything made of bhūmi , earth, worshipable . . . Lalaji: I don't call it worshipable, Prabhupāda, but I have more . . . (indistinct) . . . with this land, because . . . Prabhupāda: Kitna land parivartan hua ye bhi to malum hona chahiye. Aj ye dus pachas baras idhar ye land me hai, iske pehle kaun land me tha iska koi pata bhi hai. (How many times the land has changed that should also be known. Now for the past ten or fifty years we are in this land but previous to that who knows we were in which land.) This is all illusion. This jananī janma bhūmi , huh? Devotee: I'm going for Gurudāsa. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā . This ijya*-dhīḥ , to worship the land of birth, but bhārata-bhūmi has special, it is pūjyā . . . Lalaji: That is my contention. Prabhupāda: Not, not as nationality. Lalaji: Not as nationality. There are more . . . Prabhupāda: But the land where Lord Kṛṣṇa came, Lord Rāma came, Lord Caitanya came, that land is certainly worshipable. That is another thing. In that way . . . Lalaji: In that way I was saying that more essential that we talk more of spiritualism here. I don't know whether they talk it in other countries or not. But we do here more of it. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Other countries all they have got high respect for India as spiritual land. But we are killing, our present government and so*-called leaders, killing that state. This is regrettable. They could hold this Bhārata-varṣa to the topmost summit all over the India if after Independence they would have organizedly preached Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedic culture. That is my mission. Now, whatever you may think of Bhārata-varṣa, outside, India is known as a poor . . . poorest country, because our ministers go there to beg. Lalaji: Prabhupāda, you have said that, really good, what I read this morning, that if . . . yudha . . . comes, we have to fight. Did you say to the people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They asked me, I said. Lalaji: That's what we want to hear now, you know. Prabhupāda: So these messages are very nice? (laughs) Devotee (3): What did you say to them, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What was the language? Lalaji: Language was when the war comes, Kṛṣṇa also said . . . asked Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: If it's a just war, you have to fight. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: So that if it's a just war, we are going to fight. And the war is coming, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Why should we be afraid of fighting? Lalaji: We are not afraid of fighting. *Prabhupāda: We never . . . the Bhagavad*-gītā never says that when enemy attacks, you become nonviolent. No, no. Never says. Rather, Gandhi said that, "Yes, I shall . . ." Somebody asked Gandhiji that "If in your presence your wife or your daughter is ravaged, what you will do?" That question was there, actually. But he said that, "I shall nonviolence upon . . ." Lalaji: No, no, no Prabhupāda. Then he said: "I'll hit him back." On that condition. He said: "If that comes all right, hit him back." Prabhupāda: He said that. Lalaji: He said: "If a duṣṭa does that to you, you hit him back." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our policy. Our ātatāyinaḥ , the śastra , ātatāyinaḥ . Ātatāyinaḥ means a person who usurps my property. Lalaji: A tyrant. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: A tyrant, ātatāyinaḥ . Prabhupāda: Aggressor, aggressor. Lalaji: Aggressor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: Ātatāyinaḥ . Prabhupāda: Who sets fire in my home and who wants to kill me, they're called ātatāyinaḥ . So they should be immediately killed. There's no question of nonviolent. And if the Vaiṣṇava is insulted, he should be killed immediately. That is also . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who advised that we should be humbler than the grass, but practically when Nityānanda Prabhu was insulted, He immediately wanted to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi. So these messages . . . Lalaji: This has touched people. Prabhupāda: Hah, hah. *Lalaji: This is what they're worried about. Did you know last time there were these signals practicing black*-out and all that sort of thing? So now whole country is full of it. Prabhupāda: Lord Rāmacandra's father, Daśaratha Maharaja, about him it is written, samūla vartham nava dhṛt ariṁśca. There are many qualification. Out of that, one qualification was samula avartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca. Enemy would come, then he will uproot the whole generation. Samula vartham nava dhṛt hariṁś ca . Lalaji: After the festival, Prabhupāda, are you going to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am thinking of. I have not gone for many years. Lalaji: Your room is very well kept there. I have been to that place myself. Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalaji: We have seen that your room is kept well. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa is keeping? So I can go and live in my rooms. The difficulty is that whenever I go, at least another half*-a-dozen, one dozen will go. Lalaji: Naturally. Devotee: The entourage. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) So what shall I do? Therefore, otherwise I liked Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, but . . . Lalaji: We can find a place for them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: We can just go and arrange it if you allow us. Prabhupāda: Ah. Lalaji: If few days earlier we go while the festival is on, we can arrange for your place for you and for devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalaji: . . . to stay. I can do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Lalaji: I'm going a couple of days earlier, anyway. Prabhupāda: All right. Kya nam tumhara? (What is your name?) Lalaji: Rohit. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalaji: Rohit. Prabhupāda: Rohit, yes, I remember. Lalaji: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Rohit. Rohit was the son of . . . Lalaji: Hariścandra. Prabhupāda: Hariścandra, yes. And daughters? Lalaji: Daughters, they will be bringing with them this evening also, the two daughters. Prabhupāda: Oh. So how old they are? Lalaji: One is about seventeen. Prabhupāda: One I think came yesterday. Lalaji: Yesterday the two younger ones came. Of the two elder ones, we'll bring this evening. They are eighteen . . . seventeen, eighteen. Prabhupāda: So . . . Lalaji: One is studying to be . . . Prabhupāda: You are trying to find out some groom? Not yet. Lalaji: Not yet. I have not done anything. Prabhupāda: I think you can get them married if you find out good boy. Lalaji: Ap se ashirvad . . . (Your blessings . . .) Prabhupāda: Working. Lalaji: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Good health and working. Never mind rich or poor. Lalaji: No, no I am myself poor, why should I . . . (indistinct) . . . for a rich . . . Prabhupāda: You should see that he is good health and working. That's all. Not idle. So in your community I . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- November 11, 1971, Delhi here): (this page was renamed and can be found ( kīrtana in background) Mauritius man: Hmm. I think U.P. Prabhupāda: U.P. Mauritius man: Yeah, the majority of the people from Mauritius are of Indian origin. Prabhupāda: That's good. *Mauritius man: And Bhagavad*-gītā is always there. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Mauritius man: And all. Prabhupāda: I see. (break) Mauritius man: . . . your blessings on Mauritius some time? Prabhupāda: Yes, welcome. You arrange, we shall go. I'm going to Africa . . . Mauritius man: Ah. *Prabhupāda: . . . by the twenty*-third. So if you can arrange, we can go. Mauritius man: All right, I'd be delighted to. Prabhupāda: How far it is from Nairobi? Mauritius man: From? Prabhupāda: Nairobi. How far it is? Mauritius man: Ah. About two hours' flight. Prabhupāda: Two hours? Mauritius man: Yes, only. Very close. Prabhupāda: About 1,000 miles? Mauritius man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not very far. Mauritius man: Yes, not far. If you keep in touch with me, we shall try to see the . . . who looks after the program of Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: He is in charge of Africa. Mauritius man: I see. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda Swami. Mauritius man: I see, very good. Prabhupāda: He's American. *Mauritius man: Ah*-hah. Prabhupāda: But he has taken to the mission for preaching in Africa. (break) . . . (indistinct) Mauritius man: Yes, I find them very devoted and loyal. Prabhupāda: Indians are not very forward. Mauritius man: Very good. Prabhupāda: (to someone entering) Aiye! Aiye! (Please come. Please come.) Mauritius man: How many of . . . (break) Indian man: I'm a Hindu. Mauritius man: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man: I'm a Hindu . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: I was teaching in a . . . (indistinct) . . . temple in South India, from India . . . (indistinct) . . . face to face. Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man: (indistinct) . . . I been living for the last nineteen years in this district . . . (indistinct) . . . Holy Village . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . Prabhupāda: Holy Village? Indian man: Holy Village. Prabhupāda: In Bombay? Indian man: Bombay, I mean he passed away in 1956, Bengali. Disciple of Svāmī . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm a freedom fighter and a journalist. (Hindi) And then I've been a journalist . . . (indistinct) . . . now I'm representative of the . . . (indistinct) . . . to start a home center like an āśrama for aged freedom fighters. This Maṭha . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: For aged and for freedom fighters, to start. They are given the pension of . . . (indistinct) . . . and to give them more. Not only . . . these Christians, they have started . . . I mean, Christians have laid the foundation stone for aged (indistict) and the government. There are so many, I mean in Bombay also there are so many also aged . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Let me take blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa also, Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Mandir . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's blessings are everywhere. (break) Indian man: . . . open. Prabhupāda: But nobody is prepared to take it. Kṛṣṇa says: "Just take shelter of Me and I will protect you from the reactions of all sinful life." Because here in the material world everyone is sinful—and there is reaction. He gives assurance that "I will give you protection from the reactions of sinful life. Just surrender unto Me." But nobody is doing it. Indian man: Swāmījī, your blessings that I will surrender. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Your kindly blessings that I surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender means this, that "Kṛṣṇa, so long I was forgotten that missing You. Now I have gotten from this day I surrender unto You. Whatever You like, You can do it." That's all. Indian man: Swāmījī, I will request you to kindly give me that feeling of dedication and surrender. Bless me to have that feeling. Prabhupāda: It does not require—you simply . . . (indistinct) . . . let him come. Anyone wants to come, let him come. Just like one man has fallen in the well, and he's crying, "Please get me . . . get me out. Somebody please get some rope. Just catch it, I'll take it." Then where is the question now of getting a blessing? Here is the blessing: take it. But if you don't catch, or if you say that "Give me the strength to catch," this is not very good argument. Here is the rope; you catch it. That's all. But nobody is prepared to do that. Otherwise, the solution is there. Indian man: The situation is the guru is the one who catches? *Prabhupāda: The guru is speaking . . . guru is speaking: "Here is a bag of million dollars. Take it," then if you take . . . why don't you take it? If you don't take it, then how you can get rich? Kṛṣṇa says that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo , but nobody is taking it. These European and American boys, they are taking it up and they are advancing. But if you are not prepared to take, how you will advance? It is a plea, that "You give me your grace so that I can catch this . . . that goal of devotion," is that right? I'm already offering you the rope, you catch it. That is the difficulty. These people, they have taken it, they have surrendered, they are making progress. It is not very difficult. Just see how they are dancing in esctasy. These European boys and girls, they are in ecstasy. There is a girl, her father is a very rich man in Chicago—that is a big businessman—and she is with us. She is married; she has got husband. I get them married. Indian man: That's good. Prabhupāda: This is the first time in history that a sannyāsī is taking part in marriage making. Mauritius man: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: What can be done? I have to. I cannot allow them to live as friends, you know. That is not. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Europe and America the boys and girls live as friends. I don't allow. They must get married. Kṛṣṇa can protect you from all the past sinful activities, but if you again commit, that is not good. So the illicit sex is sinful activity. As soon as you surrender, Kṛṣṇa excuses you from your past habits. But you don't commit again. That is our . . . just like one is insolvent, so in insolvency the court hears his excuse: "All right, but don't take any more debt." Mauritius man: That is the one. Indian man: At the end of that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if he takes debt, that is criminal if he is insolvent person. Just like in the court if he takes again debt, that will be criminal. The court says that, "You are unable to pay. All right, your former debts are all . . ." Indian man: Squashed up. Prabhupāda: ". . . cleared . . ." Indian man: Cleared of insolvency. Prabhupāda: ". . . burnt up. But don't take again." Our is like that. Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, whatever sinful activities are done, I clear, but don't do again." That is required. One must be determined that, "Whatever I have done, that's all right, that is being excused, but no more doing." And if we think that "Now I have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa and I will go on committing all sinful activities, and He'll excuse . . ." Eh? Like the Christian people say . . . Indian man: Ah. Prabhupāda: . . . that, "Our religion is very good because Jesus Christ suffered for all our sins, so we can go on committing our sinful life, and Jesus Christ will suffer." That is not very good proposal. Jesus Christ has once, for all, he has sacrificed his life for the sins of others, and if you make a contract that, "You go on suffering for us, and we will go on committing sin," that is not a very good proposition. *Indian man: Selfish motive. Self*-interest. *Prabhupāda: In the Vedic scriptures it is said, nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ (Bhakti-sandarbhaḥ 173), that this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa means you become free from all sinful activities. But it does not mean that you again commit sinful activities and you think that "I will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and it will be counteracted." Once you are forgiven, twice you are excused, but not for the third time. It's like in criminal court also. The magistrate, if the criminal says: "Sir, I did not know what was my . . . (indistinct) . . ." "All right, excused. Don't do it again." But if he every time says, that will not . . . (indistinct) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, people are kept in ignorance. The enlightenment is there, Bhagavad*-gītā , but they are not taking it. They are not taking it. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, everything is there. You can become very happy, this life, next life and so on. They do not know how to become happy. They want to become happy in their own way. It is entangling them, and people are suggesting, "Yes, you can execute your religious principle in your own way." How it is that? That's where they go to it. You cannot execute law in your own way. You must accept the laws of the state and execute it properly . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ( kīrtana concludes) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 12, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: The height has been confusing. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: ..but I asked whether there is ventilation he said, "no." The . . . (indistinct) . . . did not know . . . hoping (break) cheap relief, now they've got a chance (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . it requires some strength in the world . . . (indistinct) . . . again . . . (indistinct) . . . in this way print and selling books and stocking books you will get rich and it will be propagation of the mission and the saṅkīrtana movement . . . (indistinct) . . . but whether we are prepared and . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy print books and . . . (indistinct) . . . and make that awarding salaries . . . (indistinct) . . . burden . . . (indistinct) . . . books . . . (indistinct) . . . talking, simply talk of philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . and the Deity room upstairs. They are not interested in the Deities, they are interested in philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . make this propaganda clear . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (break) we don't require much . . . (indistinct) . . . downstairs make a lecture room office and for men . . . (indistinct) . . . Women . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . they take care of the Deities and then the downstairs the meeting room . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . not for money or credit it to me, no . . . (indistinct) . . . and you sell them and get the whole money and make cheap edition, make cheap edition. . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Yes in rich man's house they have library with books every place, and chairs. Prabhupāda: And lamps. And go there and sit down on the floor . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: (laughs) even the devotees were having difficulty, I mean Birla . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . this is the verse . . . (indistinct) . . . preach . . . (indistinct) . . . because this is also . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: This is what we need. That's a very good idea. All over India. Prabhupāda: Bombay we will have more Diety worship. Everywhere . . . here also Deity worship must go on. Guru Dasa: The idea of book selling and distributing that I am speaking of. Not the polit . . . not for this quarter but the idea of printing cheap editions and distributing on a wide scale is a very good way to preach. Prabhupāda: Schools and colleges it is recommended that this should be read by the college students. Guru Dasa: And we will get devotees, many devotees. Prabhupāda: As soon as they read our books they will come. Guru Dasa: Especially high school. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru Dasa: Especially in high school. Prabhupāda: High school, college and government officers. Somehow or another induce them to read our books. We open some . . . (indistinct) . . . (break). Any sane man will read our books you will find. Because this writing was not . . . (indistinct) . . . even . . . (indistinct) . . . the rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . simply making business and cheating . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not our pride but actually . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody can say authoritatively about God that would be, nobody else. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nobody . . . nobody has clear idea . . . actually . . . (indistinct) . . . unnecessary joined. Guru Dasa: All the books are . . . is completely abstractions, the books you can see that about spiritual life from other people they are completely abstract. There is nothing clear. Prabhupāda: No. Guru Dasa: Nothing clear. Prabhupāda: No. Because they have no clear idea. Vague idea. Guru Dasa: And people will . . . foolish men will accept it, "Oh he knows so much." Because I don't understand but why not let them understand something. You've seen some of the type of books that? Prabhupāda: I don't ask, but to see I don't ask them. Guru Dasa: Completely abstract. Prabhupāda: They will speak of highly post. "Formally I was not so advanced." Still I've never liked to read this Ramakrishna kind of book or Rabindra Tagore . . . (indistinct) . . . and Gandhi's literature. I don't . . . (indistinct) . . . that was my . . . (indistinct) . . . special protection . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: One night in Bombay. When many our students are attracted to look at another book. I tell them the story that one night in Bombay someone gave you a set of his books and you used them as plates for sweets. And handed them back to the devotees. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . there is only a few books *Bhāgavatam* . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Hmm . . . (break) Prabhupāda: I was thinking of leading a saṅkīrtana party provided I get some. At least half a dozen educated . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru Dasa: Village to village. Prabhupāda: Or you can make . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) intelligent class of people but the Indians they do not come to take it. They come . . . (indistinct) . . . mostly. Make some profit. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So did you talk with Ramānanda? Guru Dasa: I sent a telegram and I followed up with a letter, explaining. (break) Prabhupāda: One bus . . . bus . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Minibus. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru Dasa: Minibus. Prabhupāda: Minibus. Don't stop Then he can . . . (indistinct) . . . travel all over India. With our own. India is not so cold. Brahmānanda: No. We can have tent. Prabhupāda: Tents yes. Brahmānanda: Prepare our own prasāda , distribute. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . also and in the evening kīrtana . Guru Dasa: Kīrtana . Prabhupāda: . . . and you will have no expenditure you will go to village and village as you like.. Guru Dasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If you prepare well. Guru Dasa: Definitely. Prabhupāda: Some supplies, milk, rice, wheat, vegetables, ghee. Cook nicely eat and invite . . . (indistinct) . . . many citizens if they like they will come and . . . (indistinct) . . . and kīrtana . Marvelous . . . and they have already heard about us and when they hear that we are coming . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: They said they will go from village to village ahead of us. Prabhupāda: Only thing is four men should go ahead, one village to bring on . . . (indistinct) . . . another some men another village he must hand out special leaflets. Or second batch of tents arranged . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And this man goes next. They go next. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: In this way you make nice preparation. Every day new village or a new students. And when . . . (indistinct) . . . take their men travel to the center and go on with saṅkīrtana . . . we have got Hindi books Gita Press we don't require to publish. Gita Press is called Bhāgavata dharma but they are sometimes talking nonsense. Still in the village whenever there is question of Bhāgavata class, oh hundreds and thousands people. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands of them. (break) there are many temples (break) in the western countries . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Yes the travelling parties. Prabhupāda: We have to fight with these demons, we have . . . (indistinct) Brahmānanda: We had that program in Africa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Brahmānanda: We would go from town to town to town. They would arrange in advance for us and we would just. We didn't even know where we were going, we'd just go. And then we would find out who was in the next town and the next town. Prabhupāda: Already prepared. Brahmānanda: Yes and we didn't have to worry about any. Because they would give us all accommodations. Prabhupāda: The Africans? Brahmānanda: No no the Indians, they would give us accommodations booked. We would arrange programs for both Africans and Indians. For the Indians we would arrange either in some big man's house or in some temple and for the Africans (break) halls, they have these halls . . . social halls where they meet. And we did every village and we never had a . . . spend anything. Our food was . . . everyone . . . everything was taken care of. And we collected tons of money, distributed tons of books. Prabhupāda: Then go on with that. That we need. Guru Dasa: Did somebody went ahead or not? Brahmānanda: No they would telephone ahead and they would arrange. They would always know the people in the next town who to contact. Prabhupāda: I see. They like it . . . (break) half Indians half . . . (indistinct) . . . but there is no good preacher even . . . (break) Brahmānanda: Yes, it is very cold. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru Dasa: Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . because it is made of earth better arrangement (break) well, new well water . . . (indistinct) Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . forest. Brahmānanda: In Māyāpura that's where I discovered that in the morning the well water is warm and in the daytime the well water is cold, it is so nice. Not that when you take a bath in the morning the water is very warm. Prabhupāda: Like underneath the tree during winter it is warm and during summer it is cold. I have seen practically in London in Regent's Park there is a small lake. Everything in it . . . what's it called? It becomes . . . ice, the water, what's it called? Brahmānanda: Frozen. Prabhupāda: Frozen, yes. The water is frozen but in parts when there is a tree above the water that wasn't frozen. I marked it, that means it gives warmth. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Except that part everything is frozen but the . . . underneath the tree it is not. Guru Dasa: Yes. Brahmānanda: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This I have marked whilst walking. Other parts the seagulls, seagulls? Guru Dasa: Seagulls. Prabhupāda: They are walking. Brahmānanda: But not in that part? Prabhupāda: That part . . . it's solid for swimming. Guru Dasa: Yes. Yes, the children they used to also walk and where it gets near the tree they could not walk, the ice would become thin so you don't walk. Prabhupāda: That means it is warm. During in winter season underneath the tree you can get warm. Therefore under . . . to live underneath the tree is safe both seasons. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And rainy season also, the storm, the rain will not keep. The leaves will cover it and give you shelter. In a great storm if you remain underneath the tree you don't feel anything. The tree will do like this (laughs) you remain safe and then if the tree falls down. Generally it does not but sometimes an old tree will displace. So any amount of wind or storm may go on if you are under the tree you don't feel anything. And if a small canopy underneath the tree will protect you from rain and there rain with full strength cannot, everything falls on the leaves tuk, tak, tuk, tak. On a small canopy . . . nature's way of giving protection not only to the birds, towards the human beings. In Africa when I saw they prepare regular cottage up upon the hill. Brahmānanda: Yes . . . well when we were in Florida, Gargamuni Svāmī, Viṣṇujana Svāmī and myself we were sometimes staying in a house in a tree. Prabhupāda: Was it comfortable? Brahmānanda: Well it was a little small. (laughs) But it was nice. Prabhupāda: At night? Brahmānanda: We would sleep there. Prabhupāda: No animals. Brahmānanda: No no one would come. Prabhupāda: Even that animals, tigers cannot get up. Guru Dasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Snakes may get up. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Snake or, or other wild animals. Guru Dasa: If leave a kerosene lamp and they won't come. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is light they won't. Guru Dasa: Very comfortable living in a tree. Simply you make a platform, tie it on, you don't even have to nail, on the branches. Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice . . . and passing urine and stool that is also not difficult. Brahmānanda: (laughs) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 25, 1971, Delhi Dr. Singh: . . . śarīra . *Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke ( SB 10.84.13) . . . (indistinct) . . . everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs , I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to *Vedas* . But all the . . . anywhere we go, material . . . these people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. *Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away. Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the *Upaniṣads* , when they talk of this path . . . (indistinct) . . . yoga agni mayam shariram . Nahi, unko kehna tha. (No, this is what he meant to say.) So if you . . . what does that mean? Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam . Dr. Singh: Yoga agni māyām śarīraram . *Prabhupāda: Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa . Dr. Singh: Coming now. This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Cinmaya , cinmaya-śarīra we have got. In the Padma Purāṇa , the length and breadth of this cinmaya-śarīra is given—one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Dr. Singh: This is my wife. Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you? Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. Star one English friend of ours who is out . . . who is . . . Prabhupāda: (to lady) So why are you sitting down? Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that: (indistinct) . . . because here everyone is puffed up. Dr. Singh: Ahaṅkāra . *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā . (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the Bible also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find. Devotee: Inherit the earth. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth." *Prabhupāda: So this is . . . because our puffed*-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore brahma-bhūtaḥ , those who are self-realized, they are prasannātmā . Any condition of life they are happy, jolly. Dr. Singh: So Swāmījī, if er . . . if Īśa is everywhere, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), then surely He is in the body also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of of em, of em . . . care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya (BG 6.17). But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to . . . the body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given (up) everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything. Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā . Prabhupāda: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). *Dr. Singh: (chuckles) They simply take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died. Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: (laughs) Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright*-faced. *Dr. Singh: Bright*-faced. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: Ujjwala*-mukha . *Prabhupāda: Yes, ujjwala*-mukha . And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that, "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in . . . gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that, "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that. Another priest, Christian priest, in New York . . . in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that, "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to . . . Dr. Singh: Would you have . . . (indistinct) . . .? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with. Prabhupāda: One glass of water will be fine. Dr. Singh: Pani de dijiye, unko de dijiye. (Give it to him, give it to him.) Only water? Only water, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: We can take. What is it? Dr. Singh: Inko do, jo bhi inko dena ho. (Give it to him, whatever you have.) Prabhupāda: Kya chiz hai? (What is this?) Dr. Singh: Kuch hai, ye anna jaisa hai. (aside) Ye rehne do, ye kyu . . . (indistinct) . . . unki habit nahi. (It is similar to rice. (aside) Just leave it, why did you . . . not in his habit.) We have made a truly sattvic bhojana today, so there is no problem. Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya . (Dr. Singh laughs) Rājarṣi . Dr. Singh: Rajarshi to kya hai lekin ye Raghuvamsha ka hai avashya. (I don't know if I am a rājarṣi or not, but surely we are from Raghuvaṁśa.) *Prabhupāda: Nahi, ap hi ka hai. (No, you definitely belong to their lineage.) Your generation are kṣatriya . Actually we give stress in our civilization, brahmin and kṣatriya . Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Yehi to hum log ka durbhagya ho gaya. (This is our great misfortune.) We have lost our kṣatriyas , we have lost our . . . Dr. Singh: Kshatra bal nahi raha, kshatra dharma nahi raha. ( Kṣatriyas don't possess any prowess now, nor do they have the kṣatriya religiosity.) Prabhupāda: To isliye . . . (That's why . . .) the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms. Dr. Singh: And also the . . . Prabhupāda: And the brahmins the head. Dr. Singh: But in the *Upaniṣads* , as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember? Indian man: Fourth Chapter of *Gītā* . . . (indistinct) . . . Fourth Chapter of *Gītā* . . . (indistinct) . . . the knowledge is being handed over. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Handed down. *Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect. Dr. Singh: Sretaketu also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity. Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine. Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: I want to revive brahminism , kṣatriya*-ism . Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma . Dharma means this classification dharma . There are two kinds of dharmas . One, material dharma , and another, spiritual dharma . Actually, dharma means spiritual. *But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma , we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). *Dr. Singh: Guṇa*-karma vibhādayo . Prabhupāda: So the brahmin's dharma , the kṣatriya's dharma , the vaiśya's dharma and the śūdra's dharma . Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be . . . he must have the knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas . *Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas , sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That . . . that is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas . Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā . The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva , raja , tama guṇa . And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya , nirguṇa . Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ . Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: So two sides we are trying to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is on the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division— brahmin , kṣatriya , vaisya , śūdra . Those who are purely in goodness, they are brahmin . Next to that, passion, kṣatriya . And next to that, vaiśya , mixture. And next to that, śūdra . And next to that, caṇḍāla . Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have for example . . . he's got to have his . . . he's got to have knowledge of the dharma . He's got to have the capacity to act . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: . . . of the kṣatriya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and Nipuṇāta . . . (perfect skills . . .) for example, and service. Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that, that . . . Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age? Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if, if you are a kṣatriya , you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field. Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally, which is equally (laughs) hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact. Prabhupāda: Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there . . . someone must be there manager. So this, this division of the society . . . Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head. Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is wanted. Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be in brahmin or either you may be kṣatriya , either you may be vaiśya or śūdra , it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ . Vibhāgaśa is accepted, varna āśrama . Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya . Now everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya , you remain brahmin , you remain śūdra , it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya . He was a fighter; *he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said: "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was . . . he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not . . . I am . . ." Yes. Kārpaṇya*-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ . *Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma*-sammūḍha-cetāḥ . *Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad*-gītā . So he remained a kṣatriya . But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya , brahmin , kṣatriya . It doesn't matter. Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied. Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by . . . by connecting. *Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). So we are parts and . . . if we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy. Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma . Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body . . . suppose I want to scratch here; *a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased. Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life? Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take . . . just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . that is the definition of bhakti . Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ , that is bhakti . Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he must have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification? Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification . . . love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification? *Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170): when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated, "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ , that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are? Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) śivo 'ham, śivo . . . Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty? *Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am śivo 'ham , or brahmāsmi , or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. Tat*-paratvena nirmalam . *When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti . So therefore bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti , and this is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, then there is already division: an intelligent class of men, the administrator. Just like not all, everyone, is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I'll not interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of man, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or home minister, he has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore that is required. Then, hah . . . tejaḥ . First, first these administrators must be tejasvī . . . īśvara bhāva . . . dānam yūdhe cāpy apalāyanam (BG 18.43). Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch, and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya . The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained, as in business we give training. *Similarly, those who are going to take up, take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brahmins , the śāstra , sādhu-śāstra*-guru . And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there; simply the training is not there. Therefore there is chaos. Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there. Prabhupāda: No, not so. Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Singh: If you read Chanakya niti and all. Prabhupāda: Chanakya niti , it is of course about some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we have . . . we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed. Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war. *Prabhupāda: That, that's all right. Er, er . . . recorded means. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world . . . because India, or Bhārata*-varṣa , means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. *This, this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa . Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa . Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata . . . you know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa . And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this first to last, then gradually . . . why? The culture was lost. The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he is desiring, "With this sword I shall kill you." So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā . Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem? (break) These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: *Another, in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam : *We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore we created all these things. Who, whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa*-yonayaḥ : "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni , he can come to Me." That, what is not the duty of those who are elevated as brahmin and kṣatriya , to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni , he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. *But that we did not do. We simply hated. Now one, at the . . . during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the . . . (indistinct) . . . put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Now, whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only . . . Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world? Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united? Dr. Singh: But should one teach the world to become united . . . (indistinct) . . . with Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . ." Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later. Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after? Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the first priority? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Singh: First priority is to try . . . (break) . . . function. Prabhupāda: What, what do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you. Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brahmin class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is a intelligent class of men? Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work. Prabhupāda: Everyone is working. Dr. Singh: They can do . . . they can be very good worker. Prabhupāda: When your brain . . . brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work. Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone. Dr. Singh: They can fight also. Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that, "Here is a enemy," so hand immediately raised. Brain gives direction that, "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya . And the belly supplies food in that, vaiśya . And the legs, śūdra , carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be a intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. *So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate , he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). *That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. Ya eṣāṁ ātma*-bhuvam īśvaram na bhajanty abhijānanti sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 11.5.3) sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ . Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brahmin , kṣatriyas , they have fallen down. Brahmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , everyone. Sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ . Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy? *Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. Even this a material ecstacy . . . that ecstacy, spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā , when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the Bhagavad*-gītā , that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Singh: I don't know whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight. Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it . . . (indistinct) . . . you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought. Prabhupāda: That everything was done by Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Singh: When He went as a duta (messenger). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; *it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad*-gītā . And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that, "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin (BG 11.33). So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative. Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Arjuna. Prabhupāda: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book. Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Dr. Singh: This one? Oh! Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture. Śyāmasundara: Your secretary gave it to us. Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books. Prabhupāda: So some of the points some of the points . . . what was the points? Śyāmasundara: The . . . that every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we are doing. Dr. Singh: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmins only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmins. Dr. Singh: All brāhmaṇas . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) *Prabhupāda: It was not? Now we are creating brahmins from America, from Australia. Is it not re*-creation of . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism. Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation. Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brahmins , kṣatriyas —especially brahmin —from every community. Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kīrtana tonight? What is the program, or do we . . . Śyāmasundara: As you wish. Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes. Prabhupāda: Yes, kīrtana . Dr. Singh: Shall I, before dinner, before food. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement. Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift . . . (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Yes. We can answer any philosophy. Devotee: We have a . . . Prabhupāda: Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ , kecit . . . there is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ . Just like there is fog—if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way . . . *Dr. Singh: Anti*-pollution. Prabhupāda: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal. (aside) All right, have some kīrtana . I think in 1925 I went to Kashmir. Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: What is your birthday? Dr. Singh: '31, 1931. (laughs) Prabhupāda: And your father's? Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away. Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896. Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? (to Mālatī) What do you want? A piece of paper? Devotee: She wants to write the words of the mantra on a piece of paper. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa? (indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words) Write. Write. Give her. (break) Mālatī: . . . photographs from India of the actual . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: . . . Harrison. So our devotees, they . . . (indistinct) . . . that singer of the Beatles. Prabhupāda: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars. Dr. Singh: Did he? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . "Words from Apple." Prabhupāda: This boy contacted, Śyāmasundara . . . (indistinct) . . . find out. Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . (reading) "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, Nam bade bade sundar apne chune hai. (You have selected very beautiful big big names.) (laughs), Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti? Mālatī: No, she's on her way. Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralī dāsa . . . Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī." Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all of them work for this movement. Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure. Śyāmasundara: In the beginning of this chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . you talked about men who lead . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). That is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is scientific. Our śreṣṭha jan (those who are leading us) has gone to hell. How the people will come to . . . (indistinct) . . . they don't care for God. Godless existence . . . (indistinct) . . . by the grace of Kṛṣṇa we are . . . humanity . . . trying to be . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . difficult to do but I, one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya. Prabhupāda: I said that our government should give me facility for . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha though I am not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: what I am not. Dr. Singh: (laughs) a cadre, a cadre . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What, what fault I have? Dr. Singh: (laughs) Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India. Prabhupāda: Does he, does he move better than me or less? Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time—he's based in India. Prabhupāda: Because he has no followers. (laughter) Nobody will give him place. Dr. Singh: Even I can give him . . . (indistinct) . . . I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses. Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses. Prabhupāda: So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified? Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it? Prabhupāda: Not a single farthing. Why this . . . Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress. Prabhupāda: Rather they, they, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away." Dr. Singh: Do they say that? Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know, but that is their minor point. Immediately that . . . (indistinct) . . . said . . . what is that? "No foreigner can stay there?" Śyāmasundara: In Nadia. Prabhupāda: Nadia. I do not know whether it is there. So we are being indirectly disturbed. Dr. Singh: That must be because this, got trouble there, and the foreigners . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But what must they . . . they should, government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. It's so unfortunate. Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets come. (laughs) They are always respected more abroad. Mālatī: But the point is, we are . . . he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country. Prabhupāda: Recently one paper has remarked that, "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that. Dr. Singh: Here? Prabhupāda: No. Where it is? Mālatī: Boston. Prabhupāda: Boston. Also in Buffalo. Mālatī: Buffalo, yes. Śyāmasundara: He was speaking in reference to the Pope. The Pope didn't acknowledge your letter to him. Dr. Singh: Did it or did? Śyāmasundara: Did not. Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? (laughs) Prabhupāda: I may not think that, but I wanted to see. He is a head of a very great religion, so I want to bring cooperation, I offered my cooperation and he sided me, so I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age different means and everything. Handicap. Still I am . . . *Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian*-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples? Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians. Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from . . . Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside." Dr. Singh: That is the . . . I think you're quite right, due to that is what they do. Prabhupāda: They have learned everything. Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not? *Prabhupāda: Sab janta Lawrence. (The all*-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence . . . *Dr. Singh: (laughs) Sab janta Lawrence. (The all*-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) Prabhupāda: Wo sab janta hai. (He knows everything.) Dr. Singh: (laughs) Pani tray le ao. (Please bring the tray of water.) Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence. Sab kuch janta hai. (They know everything.) Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ek hi shiksha nayi baatein khatam ho jati hai. (The same old conceptions finish any scope for advanced understanding.) Prabhupāda: That is true. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why the boys . . . (indistinct) . . . Europe. Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly. Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. They are mūḍhas . Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Mūḍha , they are rascals. Dr. Singh: (indistinct Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called, "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the *Bhāgavatam* ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian woman: See these two little things standing here. Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back. *Dr. Singh: Achha . . . he got them back, Guru*-dakṣiṇā . The guru asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can . . ." "Oh, yes." Guru-dakṣiṇā . That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master. Malatī: Sāndīpani Muni has . . . Dr. Singh: Sāndīpani. Malatī: He had sons? Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give guru*-dakṣiṇā . Whatever he wants, you must give. Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Fantastic story. Prabhupāda: That, "Give your finger just to keep the . . . (indistinct) . . ." Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya . That is very unfair. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that, "He is a śūdra . He'll miss it." Dr. Singh: So therefore he . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Singh: Dronachariya. *Prabhupāda: Exactly. Just like śūdra . In Western countries, they are all śūdras . They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for . . . (indistinct) . . . simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra . And brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , especially kṣatriya , as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu*-yajña . Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, may I know, what is called, Bhīṣmadeva, the śūdras should be given money so that can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. Bandorer golay muktor mala. (The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace.) Dr. Singh: So they call . . . Prabhupāda: The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī. Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . gave Sita Devi gave, gave her . . . "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, chasa, a cultivator, what does he know about the taste of the liquor? These are very instructive. Śyāmasundara: The cultivator? Prabhupāda: Cultivator . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor. Prabhupāda: If you give him a bottle of John Walker . . . Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? "What is it?" English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker . . ."? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa: *That is perfection. For Kṛṣṇa. Dedicate life for Kṛṣṇa. So, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ (SB 10.14.3): keep in your position, but serve for Kṛṣṇa. That Mr. Pante is also very nice boy . . . many talking . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much. He believes us, he does sūrya*-namaskāra and things of that nature. Prabhupāda: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot. Dr. Singh: Why can he not? Prabhupāda: I do not know. Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him. Prabhupāda: So anyway, give us some place in London. Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely. Śyāmasundara: That letter did you se . . . which address did you send that to? Dr. Singh: I don't really know, but I've sent it. You . . . when are you going? Who is going? None of you are going. Śyāmasundara: We're not going. I was thinking, though, if you have a carbon copy, we could send it to my Godbrothers who are going to meet with him. Dr. Singh: Today is already the 26th . . . 25th . . . 26th. What is it today? Gurudāsa: Tomorrow's the 26th. Śyāmasundara: The meeting's on the 30th. Dr. Singh: It will never get there. It will take . . . (indistinct) English woman: Sometimes the letters only take three days. Sometimes they take a week. Malatī: Five days or a week. Prabhupāda: Generally takes three days by aeroplane. Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans. Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night. Dr. Singh: You have a temple? Śyāmasundara: Oh, a very big temple. Mālatī: But it's not . . . every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny. Prabhupāda: Next time when you go to London . . . Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center. Śyāmasundara: Every city. Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And our men are . . . (indistinct) . . . actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now? Prabhupāda: At least three months. Dr. Singh: Three months. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. I came last year . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Seventy. Dr. Singh: Seventy. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so I went back again to Los Angeles in . . . (indistinct) . . . in June. Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles. Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow? Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have, I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow. Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square. *Śyāmasundara: Ratha*-yātrā, saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: You have been in Moscow? Dr. Singh: Yes. Prabhupāda: I was staying in that National Hotel. Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 3, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: Aayiye, aayiye. Baitho, idhar baitho. (Please come. Sit down, sit here.) Guest: Nahi, theek hai ji. (No, it's alright.) (break) Devotee: He has been very helpful on . . . (indistinct) . . . program. Viṣala: Your Divine Grace . . . (indistinct) . . . as long as one is seeking out a bona fide . . . unless one is seeking out a bona fide representative of God, is it true that he has no discrimination? Prabhupāda: Yes. . . . (indistinct) Viṣala: He has no discrimination? Devotee: Yes. No discrimination. Prabhupāda: No. He must find out a bona fide representative of God. He must be. If you go to purchase something in the market, we must use our senses to find out. Why not use our . . . (indistinct) . . .? Viṣala: (indistinct) . . . I was thinking that what it means is if anyone does not have a bona fide representative of God, is it true that he doesn’t have the discrimination, who is unfortunate enough not to have a bona fide representative of God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you get bona fide representative, spiritual master, and if you follow instructions by him, your advance is guaranteed. Yasya prasādad bhāgavata (Śrī Gurv*-aṣṭaka 8). So bona fide spiritual master means if he is satisfied, then Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then you are successful. Because after all, we have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa comes Himself; *He leaves His instruction, the Bhagavad*-gītā . He sends His representatives, He comes as a devotee. He is trying to take us back to home, back to Godhead, in so many ways. You have to take opportunity. That is His . . . Guest: So if Your Holiness has time, I would like to . . . if Your Holiness . . . (indistinct) . . . I can come to take Your Holiness, Gurudāsa and others, tomorrow in the morning. Prabhupāda: Tomorrow morning? What time? Guest: Any time that is convenient. (end of underneath conversation) Devotee (2): This tendency, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . this tendency of material enviousness, this is also a serious impediment in spiritual life—to become envious of our Godbrothers? Or spiritual . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: This enviousness. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is aparādha , greatest offense. That offense may kill your consciousness. That is the first offense, to become envious. The first offense. (break) Kṛṣṇa never tolerates enviousness of a devotee. He can tolerate enviousness of Kṛṣṇa, but He can never tolerate enviousness of a devotee. Woman devotee: We have no proper behavior if we are envious of one another, because we are independent of one another. We are dependent on Kṛṣṇa, but we're not dependent on any other living entity . . . (indistinct) . . . it doesn't mean . . . we should not be envious of one another . . . (indistinct) . . . we should cooperate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cooperate. Therefore we are addressing another devotee as prabhu . Prabhu means "master." So if a devotee, if I think, "You are my prabhu ," and if we think, "I am your master," then where is? . . . (indistinct) . . . enviousness. But we think, "I am master." We think we are master. No. Master must be . . . (indistinct) . . . just like Pakistan and India, both of them are thinking master, "I am master"—therefore fighting. But Vaikuṇṭha policy is not master: I am servant, I am your servant. Just to . . . (break) . . . and if you think, "No, I am your servant," why should I order you? But if I think, "I am master, I shall order you." But the man who receives order, he thinks that "Why shall I take order? I am master." You see? So we should not try to become master; we should become servant and teach others how an ideal servant can serve. That is Vaiṣṇava. If I want to become master, then that is material. Everyone is material, wanting to become master. There is dissension, enviousness. But the Vaikuṇṭha party is quite different. Here, if you advance more than me, I become envious: "Oh." But in Vaikuṇṭha party there is competition: if you advance, then I should say: "Oh, how nice he is. He is able to serve Kṛṣṇa so nicely. I could not do so, so I must follow him." This is Vaikuṇṭha. In the material world it is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. Oh, let me cut him." This is material. *So we have to be trained not as master—as servant. That is perfect. Gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ ( CC Madhya 13.80): servant of the servant of the servant of the servant. Material world: master of the master of the master of the master. And ultimately, "I am God." (devotees laugh) This is the general experience. This is another material thing. When he says that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , that is another māyā . So māyā is working in so many different ways. The only escape is to catch Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, hold tightly. ( kīrtana ) We have to . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- December 4, 1971, Delhi *Prabhupāda: These, they do not leave the control. They sell things, and they catch some leaders, they take loan from them, and they take it, and eighty percent for themselves and twenty percent for so on. This is going on, the so*-called independent country. In India also, that is being done. America is loaning, and these, ah, those who are in charge of the government, they're spending money in their way . . . (break) . . . purchasing weapons from them. Actually, the development, and these Britishers and Americans, they're constantly engaging Pakistan in fighting spirit and supplying them ammunition and supplying here. Their business is going on, taking loan from them and paying to them, and they remain debtor perpetually. You give me money, purchase from me, and in books you are debtor. I take your money by supplying some goods. So my money comes back, and you remain a debtor in the book, perpetually. (guest laughs) Is it not? Guest: Yes. Eighty percent rupee belong to the States, United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. Guest: The public did the dee . . . the date, 3-04-80. The interest is calculated every fortnight. So though it is two or three percent, but it works out about eighteen percent in a year. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: Oh. *Guest: You see, it's a sort of, I don't know how to call it. It's . . . not only compound interest, but super*-compound interest. Every fifteen days or a month something is added to the capital. So things are . . . but I think Kṛṣṇa consciousness is better for them as well as for us. (laughs). So I will take leave and come tomorrow at four o'clock. Hmm? Dalmiyaji . . . dalmiyaji has been here? Jai Dayal Dalmiyaji? Gurudāsa: Not recently. Guest: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Not recently. Prabhupāda: I have come just yesterday night, last night. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Give him that prasādam . Guest: I'll come . . . Prabhupāda: All right. Guest: Kṛṣṇa . . . how many of you . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . our activities. But . . . (break) *Gurudāsa: Even the security governments know us. One time there was this Mr. Fugarty from Florida. Remember, Mahā*-puruṣa went to see him? First Dayā . . . Prabhupāda: Fugarty, yes, I know. Gurudāsa: Dayānanda and Nandarāṇī went, and they knew him? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Fugarty. Yes. Gurudāsa: So he came to London, and he wanted to meet with us. But he didn't know our address, so he looked in the Central Intelligence files, and they had our address, and he came to see us. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was interested in our . . . Gurudāsa: He was cryptologist, code . . . code breaker, for the government. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurudāsa: When secret codes would come in, he would decode them by formula. That was his job. Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Devotee: Yes. Gurudāsa: Just like Sans . . . (break) . . . so he was doing that job. (break) Prabhupāda: But . . . do it . . . (indistinct) . . . with enthusiasm. In this way simply this advertisement goes out, village to village. And at least, you become popular in the world. Gurudāsa: Nagarādi grāma . Prabhupāda: Nagarādi grāma . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should leave at least one devotee in each village. Gurudāsa: If there was time . . . Prabhupāda: But difficulty is you do not know the local language. Gurudāsa: Hmm. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was here, there was one language? Because the . . . Prabhupāda: No, this Hare Kṛṣṇa language will be understood by everyone. There was one language, Sanskrit, amongst the learned. Still, amongst the learned gentlemen you can speak in English. Similarly, in India the pand . . . learned class language was Sanskrit, all over India. Anywhere you go you can talk with them, Sanskrit. Gurudāsa: Hah. Prabhupāda: We are not . . . learned circles, they are not concerned with the mass of people. They meet with learned circles. When learned circles meet, everyone comes. *Gurudāsa: There was that nice story, that one person was coming to defeat one of the associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu—it was Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. So his disciples, he said: "If they want me to leave, I will leave." So his disciples posed as a cobbler and a betel*-seller, and when they came to . . . a potter and a betel-seller. When they came to buy betel they spoke Sanskrit. And they thought, "Oh, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura is teaching the common betel-seller Sanskrit, then how can we compare with this?" It's a very nice story. (break) Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Then give another one. Gurudāsa: Paṇḍita Nārāyaṇa dāsa came? Prabhupāda: And whatever things we require, you give him a list and they'll supply. So if you cook, that's all right; otherwise they have got their cooks. So take that advantage. You talked with Nārāyaṇa dāsa? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But at that time he did not give us some facility. Gurudāsa: At that time he was sick in bed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurudāsa: Blood pressure, high. So he said: "Arrange with these other people, then I will come and see that it is all right." Prabhupāda: Oh. So when he came, he was informed that I had left. So somebody said: "No, he's upstairs," and he came to see me. (Gurudāsa laughs) He's my old friend. He knows me. Gurudāsa: He eh . . . he was on the League of Devotees? Yes? Prabhupāda: Not League of, but he knew me when I was there. Wherever my books were published, he came to purchase one. Gurudāsa: I spoke to them about putting some books in that shelf, they said yes. Prabhupāda: Not shelf, they purchase. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ask them to purchase. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa dāsa's son? Gurudāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He's the secretary . . . (break) . . . but they are putting . . . (break) . . . yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham ( SB 7.9.45). People are not being taught the value of life. They only understand that polished hogs' life is to be . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . I have said that they're all sinful. Indirectly I have said. Factually. These, all the gosāis and bābājīs , they're actually sinful. And some of them are . . . those who are sincere, they're surprised, that "We are so long in Vṛndāvana, we cannot have saṅkīrtana like that. What is the reason?" They're searching. I told them, "You do not follow the rules and regulation." First of all I told them that, "You have no bona fide guru ." Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Or you're not bona fide student. There must be some defect. Anandamayi's men also came to invite me. Gurudāsa: This morning I met mātājī in Kamala Nagar. Prabhupāda: Oh, she's there? Gurudāsa: She was there, yes. Prabhupāda: She's . . . she has got some party for saṅkīrtana . Gurudāsa: Yes. She was in Calcutta, she told me. Prabhupāda: She has become something, incarnation, like that. That is his proposal. And she cries. Gurudāsa: She is not . . . (break) Prabhupāda: She is simply exploiting some women's sentiments, by giving them some deity and crying. And woman, they're simple. This way, she wanted to captivate donors. I know that. She has got some foolish woman, innocent woman. I say foolish, innocent. And naturally their husbands become inclined. Gurudāsa: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Actually she has no . . . she is not a preacher. She is a sentimental so*-called religionist among some women, and naturally their husbands . . . and she has no objection. Whatever you do, it doesn't matter. Therefore she is getting some followers, and posing herself as . . . she's opening hospital. That means she has no asset. Gurudāsa: True. Prabhupāda: We are going without opening hospital and school, rather challenging . . . (Gurudāsa laughs) . . . and diminishing everything, decrying. We do not agree with anyone, and still people like us. Is it not? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our first proposition is that, "You do not know anything." (Gurudāsa laughs) (laughs) And still they agree to come to us. Gurudāsa: Yes, Delhi is very successful. People were asking, asking, asking. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Walking in the morning, and someone came to me, "Ah, we thought that somewhere you have gone." When we have got regular center here, they should come. Gurudāsa: I mean they were asking questions like, "Who am I?" And er . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- December 5, 1971, Delhi *Prabhupāda: . . . just like Arjuna said: "Yes." In the beginning he said: "No," then after learning Bhagavad*-gītā he said: "Yes." So we have to learn to say: "Yes" to Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Then you will be all right. If you say: "No," then it is māyā . But you have got the liberty to say: "Yes" or "No." . . . (indistinct) . . . if we say: "No," then it is our misfortune. If we say: "Yes," it is our fortune. *Icchā*-dveṣa. What is that verse? Sarge yānti parantapa . You have got icchā and dveṣa —two things there. Icchā means either you have desire for sense gratification or you can desire to serve Kṛṣṇa. And dveṣa means averse. You may not like to serve Kṛṣṇa, or you may not like to serve māyā . So we have come here to this material world by two propensities, icchā and dveṣa . Icchā , we wanted to enjoy this material world; and dveṣa , we try to avoid Kṛṣṇa. You see? (break) In this way you have come to this material world. Just like this Pakistan and Hindustan, fighting. Icchā . Icchā is that "I shall enjoy this land." So they're fighting. They do not know that after all, this land does not belong to any one of us; it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Why should we fight? Better you . . . let us be satisfied with whatever Kṛṣṇa has given. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore they are fighting. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa has made everything complete. *This planet is complete because it is created by Kṛṣṇa. So there cannot be any scarcity, any want. Everything is there. But we are desiring. Such simple dveṣa*-samutthena . Dveṣa . We want to enjoy more, therefore I envy you. This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called material . . . (indistinct) *And we are being carried by this different types of desire, and we are getting different types of bodies. Kṛṣṇa is kind, Lord. Oh, whatever we desire—He supplies it, "All right." Like . . . but ultimately He says sarva*-guhyatamaṁ (BG 18.64): "The most confidential part of knowledge I have given to you. Give up all this nonsense and surrender unto Me." So that is all. (cut) (end) Conversation -- December 6, 1971, Delhi (Incomplete recording) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . do not try to understand by your rascaldom arguments. It's not possible, therefore it is acintya —take the version as it is stated in the *Vedas* . That is our position. *Pañca*-draviḍa: You also give the example about the frog in the well. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pañca*-draviḍa: And the scientists they have in some way they have measured what a frog sees. And they say that a frog cannot . . . the frog sees only movement. Like a frog's eyes are equipped that they can see the movement of a fly. If a fly goes past it's eye it sees that movement it catches the fly but anything larger than the movement of the fly a frog cannot see. Prabhupāda: Ah, suppose you are a frog then how you can understand God? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Cannot even understand man. Prabhupāda: Yes, so you are no better than a frog. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Everything is limited, this is my family, this is my country, this is my nation, so you cannot see anything more than there. Or you can see utmost this is your planet and beyond that you cannot see. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Even though . . . or even if you understand it, that is not possible. If you're individual but there are millions of universes you do not. What is going on in that universe. You do not know even what is going on in other planets. Just like you are seeing the planet sun god as sun planet. But you do not know how with such temperatures the living entities can live there. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But they live, Huh? They live. Why? What. Where is the difficulty to understand? Suppose if the sun planet is fire, this fire, so fire is one of the material elements, bhūmir āpo 'nalo ( BG 7.4), analaḥ means fire. So bhūmir means that you see there are living entities on the lake, āpaḥ —water there are living entities in water. So why not living entities in the fire? This is also material. *Pañca*-draviḍa: When the, when the . . . Prabhupāda: And if you say that, "In fire everybody can live." No. Nobody can live you cannot say, it must be suitable for the fire, just like the fish live in the water. The body is suitable, similarly if you get a suitable body to live in the fire you can live. This is scientific, how you can conclude that there cannot be any living entities? Living entity identity is spiritual. Devotees: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi , nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23), living entity it is not burned. Neither it is moistened, neither is it dried up but this material action does not affect, asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 4.3.16). This puruṣaḥ the living entity has nothing to do, it never mixes with the material element it is only body encagement. So if somebody has got earthly encagement, somebody has got waterly encagement, why not a fire encagement? Airy encagement. Ether, ethereal encagement they are different matters only. So these rascals they do not understand, we have to preach them. This is science, nature. This is understanding. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Sometimes we have experienced that some people are able to call spirits from the dead. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Pañca*-draviḍa: They are able to talk to people who have passed away they . . . Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense, we don't believe in this. *Pañca*-draviḍa: They cannot come. Prabhupāda: You won't find this anywhere in śāstras . *Pañca*-draviḍa: But the śāstras speak of ghosts. Prabhupāda: Ghost is another thing it has got no body. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But sometimes these mediums. Prabhupāda: He's subtle body, he's got subtle body not this gross body. *Pañca*-draviḍa: Sometimes these mediums they are able to contact ghosts and carry on conversations. Prabhupāda: So what is there? Very important. *Pañca*-draviḍa: No, but I was wondering is there anybody who has this power to be able to see the living entities in fire? Is there anybody in this world. Prabhupāda: What is the use if even you see? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Hm. Prabhupāda: Simply knowing is sufficient, just like you see the water there is a living entity, everyone knows it. What more you want to know? And what benefit you will derive? *Pañca*-draviḍa: No benefit. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Pañca*-draviḍa: Just curious. *Prabhupāda: Every, sarva*-gataḥ (BG 2.24). The living entity can live anywhere either in the fire, or the air, the earth, or water, anywhere, sarva-gataḥ . Therefore it is known as the senses. How it is possible that you can see that the other living entities. The fish is living in the water but you cannot live. And the fish cannot live on the land that is the nature's creation a particular type of body lives in a particular place. What is the difficulty? The pig can eat stool but you cannot eat, so there are different varieties of living entities with varieties of material ingredients. And by God's arrangement and nature's arrangement they are there, so much you can do, what else you can do? Your power of knowledge is limited, how it is known, how it is living, how it is possible that is not difficult that is not possible. Neither you can know it, it is not possible. *Pañca*-draviḍa: But these things are known to the yogī's ? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: Is a yogī able to perceive these things? Prabhupāda: Yes to some extent, just like we know to some extent, they know to some extent, everybody knows to some extent. (break). This knowledge you can take from any conversation . . . (indistinct) . . . all our senses are imperfect. The yogī can be able to know at once but your senses. It is not possible. It's an awkward condition, just like a pilot his knowledge is little more than you. He knows how to fly in the sky but that does not mean he has become perfect . . . (indistinct) . . . perfect knowledge. He may be a little advanced than you but that does not mean that he is perfect. (break) Degrees of knowledge, standard of knowledge, just like animals knowledge, dogs knowledge and your knowledge that is different. So your knowledge and the scientists knowledge that is different. That does not mean because one is advanced little than your knowledge he has become God. That is not, or he can show some magic therefore he has . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody can show better magic than God. This is Kṛṣṇa says: You know this verse? You have to read. These are better than knowledge. Devotee: What is the verse? Prabhupāda: Read it. Acyutānanda: "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." *Prabhupāda: Simply taking shelter of breathing of Mahā*-Viṣṇu all these big big Brahmās they live. So just imagine what He is. And Brahmā's life age you cannot, you cannot calculate one minute even. And all these Brahmās live only during the breathing period of Viṣṇu. When Viṣṇu breathes . . . (indistinct) . . . all the Brahmās come out and when He inhales all the Brahmā's go in. (break) . . . that they cannot understand the simple things. They are thinking always (break) Western civil. (break) then somebody picks up hundreds of thousands of . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not good. We are chanting to satisfy Kṛṣṇa not for economy. Gurudasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This should be the principle. Gurudasa: Yes. Prabhupāda: If . . . it is just like music, that somebody is performing musical performances and it is . . . (indistinct) Gurudasa: I, I . . . Prabhupāda: I mean it is a defect. It is, the kīrtana is performed for satisfying Kṛṣṇa not for satisfying the public. This should be always remembered. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: One should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra in certain ecstasy so that immediately his connection with Kṛṣṇa is made. Not that I am chanting something nice music, so hearing my music the public will be satisfied. This is wrong conception. (break) It's for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Gurudasa: Hmm. It's not public sense gratification. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) what . . . (indistinct) . . . charges for a one page, go. Gurudasa: I'll find out. Prabhupāda: Yes these kind of advertisements are . . . therefore I say if you put this poster very high it will be on view. Gurudasa: Hmm. (break) yes. Prabhupāda: That is workers department. Know about the head. Gurudasa: Hmm. This Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: They will find out all these pitfalls, that is their business. Bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . crime they will find out what is the source of this. What is . . . (indistinct) . . . but Brahmā is called Dumbhi. Gurudasa: Dumbhi. Prabhupāda: Where is Dumbhi? This is the difference. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This class of men they have simply to find out God. Gurudasa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: All classes of living entities that is . . . (indistinct) . . . sadjana gunam sankirt .Those who are helpless men they see only what is required is nice cottage and those who are lower class of men they simply find cottage. The example is given (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . find that verse (break). Gurudasa: I already told him. Was it yesterday? Devotee: He knew it. Last night they knew that you. That it wasn't right. Prabhupāda: All this is done for musical performance. Devotee: Yes. (break) (end) Conversation -- December 12, 1971, Delhi Prabhupāda: Hear and narrate. So, whatever you have heard, you can speak. (break) So in your country also they do not like this organized Christian religion. The difficulty is that either Hindu religion or Christian religion, religion is one. So what is that one religion nobody knows perfectly, and it was not presented, because they did not know what is religion. They are simply sticking to a particular kind of faith. Faith can be changed, faith can be given up, but real religion, that cannot be given up. It may be perverted. Real religion is to render service to the Supreme Lord. That cannot be changed. We are serving. If not to the Lord, we are serving māyā . But my that characteristic to serve is continued. So religion is presented simply on formulas and stereotyped ideas, but actual religion is this surrender. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ( SB 1.2.6). Bhakti means serving. Bhaja sevayā. Sevayā means serving. So religion means to serve the Supreme Lord. That is religion. Anything which has no such idea, that is not religion. Then again (you) have different types of religion, how far they are making progress with . . . on that ultimate goal, serving Kṛṣṇa? The more we advance, the more you become perfect, our real religious life becomes manifested. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *We say this is real religion. So what others have to say on this point? We say this is real religion. Bhāgavatam says . . . Bhāgavatam say, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2), "All cheating type of religion is thrown away." The cheating type of religion means which does not teach people how to serve the Lord. That is cheating. They take advantage of the religious feeling. They say: "I am God" or "I am everything". You serve me, you give your money unto me, I shall give you some material benefit, atonement. You have made your confess; you are sinful. Give me some money and you are excused." In this way religion is being perverted. Therefore, people are educated, (they) say: "What is this, religion?" They are becoming disgusted. But real religion is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness—surrender to Kṛṣṇa and you will become happy. So if we say that this is the real religion, is there anything wrong there? What possible protest they can offer when I say this is the religion? Śyāmasundara: Sometimes the Christians, they say that "According to our scriptures, that Christ is the only way. And unless one is worshiping God through Christ, that is heathenism." Prabhupāda: So what Christ teaches? Let us see what Christ teaches, then we can understand whether only through Christ we can . . . what is his teaching? Lady devotee (1): His first teaching is that "Love the Lord thy God with all they heart, with all thy might, with all thy . . . (indistinct) . . ." Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: He is also saying that, "I have no will but to do the will of my father, who has sent me," and that, "Everything I am saying is not my words but are the words of Him . . . (indistinct) . . ." Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That's nice. But they do not follow, and still they say they are Christians. They do not follow. Christ is all right. According to the time, according to the country, according to the atmosphere, he's all right, but the followers, they reject. Lady devotee (1): The followers try to make everyone fear God. Their whole aim is to make everyone so much afraid. They always try to instill fear in everyone that they speak to. "You are going to burn in hell." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the principle of eternal hell that is used to make people surrender: fear of eternal hell. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady devotee (1): Fear of God. *Prabhupāda: According to time . . . deśa*-kāla-pātra . That kind of forceful does not act very nicely. One should know the science, but the class of men to whom Jesus Christ said, they are not very much advanced. Under the circumstances, the fearfulness of hell is quite appropriate for them. *Actually, one who does not go back to home, back to Godhead, he is put into the hellish condition of life. That is fearful. But we are so blunt that we do not take care. It is fearful. Just like Prahlāda Maharaja said that, "Nṛsiṁha*-deva, I am not afraid of Your this fierceful feature, Narasiṁha, but I am very much afraid of this materialistic way of life." Saṁsāra. Saṁsāra means this material world. So it is actually very fearful. The whole atmosphere is fearful. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). To make adjustment, you have to accept something fearful. Just like this fight, "In future there may be some adjustment so that people may live peacefully. Therefore, we have to fight." This is also . . . the method is itself fearful. *To gain a position where there will be no fear, we have to accept a fearful method. So in the material world, whatever we think, they are not very happy proposition, that everything is fear. Karma*-kāṇḍīya , they have to go . . . undergo so many hardship, then they get something profit. People are working so hard to get some profit. In the material world everything is fearful, hard-working. So in the Bible it is said that hell or . . .? Devotee: Hell or . . .? Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is it? Hell, you were speaking something of hell? Devotee: Eternal hell. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: Eternal hell? Prabhupāda: Eternal hell. Huh? What is that? Devotee: Everlasting hell. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It means that, so far as I remember, Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says that at the time of judgment . . . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Judgment, the judgment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a judgment . . . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: You rise from the grave in the time you are judged. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, all of the souls then rise for judgment, and accordingly they either go to heaven or to hell. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Or into an intermediate stage, where they can gradually go up to heaven. Limbo, I think. Lady devotee (2): The ultimate desire of a Christian is to be with Jesus, is to go to be with him. That is their ultimate desire. Not necessarily to be with the Father, but to be with Jesus. Gurudas: What do they do with him? Lady devotee (2): By leading the Christian life. Gurudas: I mean when they go to him, what do they do? Lady devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Gurudas: See, the idea is that you could not remember perfectly 'cause the taste is gone, the līlā is death mostly. But it isn't death; the basics are there, but they're teaching death. And so any intelligent person says: "I want to go to Jesus," but then what do I do? If it is everlasting hell, then heaven must be also everlasting, but what do we do? And if it's void, then it will not keep the people interested; therefore people are leaving religion. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very good reason. There is no hope; better go to hell. (laughter) At least there is something. Never mind. Yes, hopelessness is not good. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Actually, that is their philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I've heard people say exactly that, is that, "All the things I want to do are for the people that are going to hell, therefore I want to go to hell. Why should I go anywhere else?" By drinking, smoking, etc . . . that's what they want. Prabhupāda: There was a story, the priest was describing about the hell, so they did not respond. But when he said: "There is no newspaper," then, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) Other conditions—that it is dark, there is very moist, and so many things described. But they were miners; they know that these things are happening daily. So what is the wrong in the hell? Then he stressed, "There is no newspaper." Then they will, "Oh, it is horrible." (laughter) So according to one's taste, the hellish conditions should described. *Gurudas: And according to one's taste the heavenly condition can be described also, because Kṛṣṇa is all*-attractive. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems that just like a mother, when she is training her young child, because the child is very young and not yet very advanced in intelligence sometimes, the mother uses the method of fear to train her child. So similarly, according to the consciousness of the people, the doctrine of love of God has to sometimes be preached with a little element of fear so that they'll accept it. Prabhupāda: That creation of fearfulness may be sometimes, not fact; but fearfulness is there according to our actions. That everyone has got experience. Just like if you steal, then you go to jail. It is a fact. It is not a creation of fearfulness; it is a fact. If you contaminate some disease, then the typhoid or any other disease, you contaminate. So there is suffering, and that is really fearfulness; that is not a false creation. So sometimes there are false creation, but actually for our misdeeds we have to suffer. That's a fact. Panchadravida: I think if there is so much fear being preached in Christianity . . . originally the Old Testament was the testament of the vengeful God and the New Testament was supposed to be the love of Christ. So if there is so much fear being preached, it would seem to be a reflection of individual consciousness more than the religion. They are preaching so much fear, it would seem to stem from their own activities, that maybe they do have this fear, rather than the true reflection of the religion that Christ was teaching. He was supposedly . . . (indistinct) . . . to take up, he said, the sins of his disciples and to help them lead the nice life and lead them back. He said . . . he referred to them as his flock. So he was taking a role of a protector. And yet the Christians you speak to, they talk about hanging you over hell by a thin thread that can be burnt away at any second. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He said the Christians . . . (break) Prabhupāda: But generally the Christians, they are very much confident that, "All our sinful actions, that have been absorbed by Lord Jesus Christ, so we can do anything." *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore they say the Christian religion is very good. "Very good" means that Lord Jesus Christ has taken contract for absorbing all their sins, and they go on committing. Is that not idea in the Christian religion? Devotee: Yes. Lady devotee (1): They say all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, Prabhupāda, that in Seattle you had me lecture on a newspaper clipping that in New Jersey they had opened up one home for alcoholic priests. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Five thousand . . . five thousand priests, they are suffering from alcoholic . . . (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Plus here in India we see that the sādhus , they are taking gañjā . Prabhupāda: Gañjā , yes. Not sādhus; *rogues. Sādhu's description is there— bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk. Fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is sādhu . Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro. Even one is found that his habits are not to the standard, but if he has unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and engaged in His service, then he is sādhu . These sādhus with long hairs and gañjā smoking, they have no idea what is the ultimate goal. And those who come from Western countries, naturally they find out these are the sādhus , and they imitate. Hippies, they do like that, imitation. They do not know what is the philosophy, what is religion, what is sādhu . *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: The American hippies actually are following these sādhus . Certain persons, like Allen Ginsberg, have brought back impression that this is what the sādhus . . . Prabhupāda: But they do not know that they are not sādhus , they are rogues. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Sādhu means devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is sādhu . *Devotee: We are also opening up homes for habituated japa*-mālā users, who are also intoxicated, but in a spiritual way. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That is required. (laughter) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: The spiritual master, his duty is to take all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, and I've heard it said that he doesn't leave until he has taken all his disciples back. What is the position of Lord Jesus when so many people are following him but not doing . . . not in a position to go back to home, back to Godhead? Is he responsible for all of these people, who are attempting to serve him? Prabhupāda: That is nice question. What is that? Repeat it again. Devotee: Because the guru is responsible for taking all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, I was wondering what was the position of Lord Jesus Christ, because so many people for so many years have been attempting to follow his teachings, many of them sincere, but not getting proper instructions. I was wondering if he is responsible for all of these people who are attempting to serve him. *Prabhupāda: But one thing is, we sing daily, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . You have to please your spiritual master. But yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi , if you displease your spiritual master, then you are nowhere. How do you adjust these things? It does not mean that because you have made somebody spiritual master, you displease him, at the same time he takes responsibility. Is it very nice? Devotee: Many times . . . Prabhupāda: If you please him, then he is responsible. Yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi . If you displease him then you are nowhere. So, if you take it in this way that, "My spiritual master has taken responsibility so whatever nonsense I do, it doesn't matter . . ." The Christians are thinking like that, that: "Jesus Christ has taken contract for all our sinful activities, so we can do anything, whatever we like." But that is not the fact. If one takes responsibility for you, you must abide by his order. Otherwise how is that, that he simply takes responsibility and you don't abide by his order? It is reciprocal. But the Christians are thinking, "Because we have taken to Christian religion, now we are safe. We can do anything we like, and Lord Jesus Christ will compensate. He'll be every time crucified and we can go on doing all nonsense." Is it not? Then? That's not a very good idea. *This is, as Viśvanātha Cakravartī said, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . If you please your spiritual master, then God will be pleased. If you don't please him, then you are nowhere. So first of all you please Jesus Christ—that is reasonable—then he takes the responsibility. If you disobey Jesus Christ in every step, where is his responsibility? That is a misconception. Devotee: There are some Christians who are actually sincere, and they feel as though they are doing the proper thing, but they are just misled by the fact that there is no paramparā system from Lord Jesus, that the churches are teaching the wrong thing. But they are sincere. If Kṛṣṇa will direct them . . . (indistinct) . . . the proper authority? Prabhupāda: Yes. If they are actually following strictly the principles of Jesus Christ, then sometimes when he meets some pure devotee, he will accept. The groundwork will be nice for accepting further advancement. Just like Jesus Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." So if anyone follows this principle—"No, I shall not kill"—then he becomes purified. But who is that Christian who is not killing? So where is follow? Amongst the Christians, the more killing process is going on very strongly. So who is a Christian? In that, if you disobey the first principle of Christianity, then where is your Christianity? Why you falsely claim that you are a Christian? "Thou shall not covet." What is that next? Devotee: "Thou shalt not kill." (break) Devotee: "Honor thy mother and father?" Devotee: There is one about no adulteration. Prabhupāda: Yes. So adulteration is going on, killing is going on. So many disobedience to Christian principles. So where is the possibility of becoming a Christian? Gurudas: "Honor thy mother and father" is not being respected. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudas: "Honor thy mother and father" is not being respected. Prabhupāda: Not . . . so many things. So, if you do not follow the principles of Christianity, simply by stamping yourself as Christian, will that do? So why Jesus Christ will be responsible for you, simply by stamping yourself that, "I am Christian"? Is that very reasonable proposal? *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Lord Jesus himself never claimed that he would be responsible. As a matter of fact, he would heal certain persons who by their karma were blind, or lame, some disease, even dead, he would bring them back to life, so many things. And then when he healed them, he invariably said after, he said: "Now go thou and sin no more, lest the worst thing befall you." And he has been saved by Jesus personally, yet Jesus is saying: "Lest the worst thing befall you." How can worst thing befall you if everything he does then is all right? So that means Jesus does not take that responsibility. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why he should be responsible? If you are not a Christian, why he should be responsible? Now here he says that, "Now you have sinned, full reaction I have washed, don't do it again." *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But they are going to the church, confessing every week, and doing the same thing. Who is a Christian, first of all find out; then Jesus Christ will take responsibility. Devotee: They are gambling and eating flesh right in the churches, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I mean to say, if you don't follow the Christian principles, how you can claim yourself to become a Christian and how you can ask Jesus Christ to take responsibility for you? These are misleading, therefore people are coming disgusted. Otherwise, Christian religion is all right. It teaches love of Godhead, teaches to become moral, it teaches to love people. That's nice. These are good principles. Viṣāla: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible it says: "Thou shalt not kill", and the Christians say: "Yes, thou shalt not kill, but you can kill animals." . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Where it is written that, "Thou shall not kill animals"? "Thou shall not kill." "Thou shall not kill" means you shall not kill anything. (break) Devotee: . . . because Jesus ate fish. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: He said: "The fish can say: 'It's not what goes in your mouth, its what comes out of your mouth that's important.' " Gurudas: Because Jesus ate fish. Prabhupāda: Jesus said? Gurudas: He said that the . . . (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . allowed. Gurudas: But if there's no vegetables, you have to eat something. Śyāmasundara: I read an article once that said . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that one has to eat. And whatever you eat, that is coming out of some living entity, even if you eat vegetables. The vegetable has also life, the tree, the plant. So the real explanation is that you take which is offered to Kṛṣṇa. That is nice philosophy. Killing you have to do. Either you kill vegetable or animal, killing you have to do. Therefore our proposition is that you take the prasādam of Kṛṣṇa, so if killing is bad, then the responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . *So this is the method. And Bhagavad*-gītā says, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ mucyante sarva kilbiṣaiḥ. Suppose you don't kill animal, but you kill vegetables, but still you are responsible. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). Anyone who is preparing food for his personal eating, he's eating all sinful activities. It may be vegetables or animals, it doesn't matter. Bhuñjate te aghaṁ pāpā. So this is the best formula. But therefore, for cruel people, those who are accustomed to killing, for them this is best advice, "Thou shall not kill". Next stage— prasādam . First of all let them stop. Generally, what is meant by killing . . . actually, vegetarians, they do not kill, because if you take fruit from the tree, the tree is not killed. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: You take grains, just like paddy or wheat. These plants, after producing the fruit, the grain, automatically they die. You are not killing. So those who are taking fruits, vegetable, grains, they are not actually killing. You take the milk . . . what is milk? Milk is transformation of the blood. So cow's milk means cow's blood, but still the cow is not killed. Cow's blood is nutritious, accepting this theory. Karnish , karnish it is called? Cow's blood? What is the meaning of karnish ? But by nature's way she is delivering you the blood, which is nutritious according to your science—but why you should kill her? *So any circumstances, the direct killing is not approved by any śāstra , any religion. Jīva hiṁsā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, niṣiddhācāra jīva*-hiṁsā (CC Madhya 19.159). So jiva hiṁsā , violence upon other animals, that is against Vaiṣṇava principle. You cannot be violent. You cannot kill. Lady devotee (2): "Thou shalt not kill" is one of the Ten Commandments, which is much older than Jesus' teachings. Moses delivered the Ten Commandments to the people of Israel thousands of years before Jesus appeared. So they knew all of this before Jesus. Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): They lived by the Ten Commandments, or were expected to, way before Jesus appeared. The Ten Commandments are Moses' . . . it's Moses' teachings. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: They were all very much meat-eaters, though. In the time of Moses all the laws of kashruth , how to sanitary slaughter, which is supposedly given by God, these were all for meat-eating. Gurudas: That came after the Book of Mishnah (a Talmudic book, considered to be the cornerstone of Judaism). Mishnah recommends vegetarian. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Really? Gurudas: And also Lord Jesus says that if there is unnecessary killing of animal that, "By my hand you shall be slain." In Genesis. He is stating, "Yes, one may kill, but if there is unnecessary killing, by my hand you shall be slain." In Genesis. Lady devotee (1): Also, in Genesis is says that, "The fruits and the herbs of the land shall be your meat." It's describing how man should live, and it says: "The fruits and herbs of the land shall be your meat." *Prabhupāda: Yes, they were meat*-eaters, so Jesus Christ replies that fruit should be your meat. Devotee: The whole key is that . . . (indistinct) . . . Jesus in one of his first meetings said that, "Disregard everything that has been taught in the past and listen to me." He speaks so many things, and he does not lay out so many basic principles about the eating of flesh, having illicit sex connections and so many things. He speaks just slightly touching the subject. He doesn't really give any basic principles. So they always say: "Well, it's okay to do this, it's okay to do that, because Jesus said: 'Forget everything that was said in the past.' " That's their basic principle. Lady devotee (1): And he also said: "I've not come to change the law." He did not come to change the law. Devotee: That's just their standpoint . . . (indistinct) . . . I don't mean to argue. Śyāmasundara: The knowledge that we have of Jesus was not direct, but it was written down up to a hundred or two hundred years later in another language, called Aramaic, and scholars recently have discovered that wherever Jesus refers to fish, distributing fish, that that word actually refers to a type of sea plant that grows in the Sea of Galilee, which they make a type of bread out of. And it's not really fish but a type of vegetarian bread. This is what I read in an article. So, we don't have . . . (laughter) Lady devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a fish on Lakṣmī's hand yesterday. The Deities in the temple, where Lakṣmī had her hand up like this, there was a fish here across her hand. What is this? Prabhupāda: That is a mark. Mark. Lady devotee: It's an auspicious sign. Prabhupāda: Not actual fish. Lady devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not that Lakṣmījī eats fish. (laughter) There are many other marks also. Lady devotee: So it's an auspicious mark. Would it be better if we gave up the eating of vegetables, then? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Lady devotee: Would it be better if we gave up eating vegetables? *Prabhupāda: You cannot eat anything except kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . Even if we eat vegetables, that is also sin. Bhagavad-gītā clearly says, bhuñjate te agham pāpā , ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). If you prepare very nice pure foodstuff for eating yourself, then still you are eating sins. You have to prepare anything very nicely, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, then you take. Then you will be free from all sin. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo . Even there is sin . . . sin there must be. Just like you are cooking, you are taking water from the jug, there are so many germs you are killing. The killing responsibility is there. In the higher sense: "Thou shall not kill" means you have to take the prasādam of Kṛṣṇa. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, even you do ordinary killing, vegetable killing, you are killing so many germs. So in higher sense, if you take this principle of Bible, "Thou shall not kill," that means you must eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam , otherwise you will be killing. In whichever you do, it will be killing. So our process is perfect: take kṛṣṇa-prasādam . Hmm? Viśākhā: What happens to the jīva souls who were fruits and vegetables that were offered to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is jīva also. I say that even vegetable you are killing, but that killing responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We are killing for Kṛṣṇa. Suppose in the vegetable there is life, but we are preparing food for Kṛṣṇa. *Nara*-Nārāyaṇa: I think she wanted to know what happens to the soul. Supposing that a plant, we are killing the plant and offering in prasādam to Kṛṣṇa. The jīva soul who is living in the plant, what happens to him? Prabhupāda: Because he is killed for Kṛṣṇa's purpose, so he gets immediately liberation. Lady devotee: This is a very sinful life they're living, unless we offer everything to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Not anything. Kṛṣṇa, whatever says, you . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). You can offer these things which is asked by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Do they just get liberation, or do they go directly to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: They go to Kṛṣṇa, or do they only get liberation? Do they go to Goloka Vṛndāvana? Devotee: What kind of liberation? Prabhupāda: Well, liberation not always means that he goes directly. In the lower stage, liberation means to come out of the lower stage to the human form of body. Then he gets chance for directly serving Kṛṣṇa, then real liberation takes . . . (break) Guest: . . . and I would like to invite . . . Prabhupāda: All right. (cut) (end) Conversation -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur (poor audio) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . unpopularity. There was monarchy. The kings were very responsible. Therefore the kings were known as rājarṣi. Rājarṣi, rāja ṛṣi . Rājarṣi , this is compound word . . . (indistinct) . . . king supervising the administration of the state, still his character was just like a ṛṣi , a saintly person, great sage. That was the qualification of the king. Therefore . . . Also Vedic civilization, even up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the government was monarchy. At the present moment, practically all monarchical state is abolished. Even there is some monarchy . . . formerly . . . (indistinct) . . . just like in England, the Queen, she is powerless. Actually, the Queen has no power. People have taken away the power. *Here also there is the . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja, Jaipur. Actually, they are the owner of the state, Jaipur state, the old state, at least five hundred years old, this state . . . (indistinct) . . . it is the kingdom of Mahārāja Mansingh, former Mansingh, who was commander*-in-chief of Emperor Akbar . . . (indistinct) . . . but now they have no power. The people have taken away the power. *But according to Vedic civilization, this people's government is not sanctioned. Democracy. Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali*-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, so he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. *But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama*-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to be śūdras . So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power. We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested . . . formality. So they put their manifesto before the election that, "We shall serve you in this way and that way," but because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power . . . Just like recently there was fight between two political parties, and represented by two big men, Vishvanath Das and Hare Krishna Mahatattva. Both of them learned men, lawyers, but they are fighting like cats and dogs. So formerly, therefore, there was no such thing as democracy. A king, there must be one king responsible. But he was guided by the ministers and learned brāhmaṇas , sages. There was a body to guide him, to train him. Therefore, the monarchical government was perfect. Now here is a story of Vena Mahārāja. His father was a very . . . (indistinct) . . . it is usual, very nice king. But his son, this Vena, born of a bad mother, he was not good. He was killing unnecessarily animals, even men, because he was prince. So he would play with his friends, and if there is any fault on the part of his friends, he will at once kill. And because he was prince, son of the king, nobody could take any step. So the king was very much perturbed within his mind how to train this boy to become future king. But he was not successful. He was not successful. Therefore, being too much depressed and disgusted, he left home. He left home, let the things take place as it is. So: So purohita . It appears . . . purohita means the priestly order. In Europe also, this same Vedic civilization was everywhere. In the Middle Age, the priestly class used to control the king. Was it not? And the King John or . . . that he protested against the priestly order, and he inaugurated the Protestant Christianity from England. Devotee: Henry. *Prabhupāda: Henry. Henry, yes. So he revolted, not being controlled, revolted against being controlled by the priestly order. Here also we see, purohita amātya*-suhṛd-gaṇādayaḥ . When the king left, then the priestly order, purohita—purohita means priestly order, amātya, amātya means ministers; *and suhṛd*-gaṇādayaḥ , suhṛt means those who are willing welfare of the state—they became very much aggrieved that the king has left. So they were afraid of some political convulsion. So although the son was worthless, so they decided that "Let us make him king. Otherwise, without king, how the state can go on?" So: *Because there was no king, so people became always like . . . almost like animals. Paśu*-sāmyatām. Paśu means animal, and sāmyatām means equal. So when there is a political, I mean to say, less strong political situation, not very strong government, at that time a class of men take advantage. Just like in Calcutta. Because the government was very lenient, not very strong, a demonic class of men took advantage of it, and they began to create atrocities and fearfulness in Calcutta city. We have seen, practically people are not going out after evening, they are always staying in fearful state. Nobody knows whether he will come back home again when he goes out of his home on the street. People are so much disturbed. So in the absence of strong king, these people take advantage and create disturbances. That is always there. *So that happened. The people became paśu*-sāmyatām . Therefore, the sages called a meeting of all respectable ministers and saintly persons and Brāhmiṇs and decided, "Let us make this boy king." So he was enthroned. But because he was demonic, he was very strong. So as soon as he became king, all the bad elements of the state, they stopped their nefarious activity. Śrutvā nṛpāsana-gataṁ venam atyugra-śāsanam . They knew that, "This king is very strong, and for any little criminal action, he will strike very severely." So the bad elements, they subsided. Ivākhavaḥ . Just like on the rats, they understand that the snake is there, so (chuckles) they go inside the ground and they disappear. Sometimes rats, everyone knows, everywhere, as soon as the house is very old, there are many rats. *And as soon as there are rats, the serpent will come, the snake will come. So to keep the rats, that is also very dangerous. So one after another, the nature's arrangement is there. So the example is given that nililyur dasyavaḥ sadyaḥ sarpa*-trastā ivākhavaḥ . In this way, when he became very much powerful, he began to neglect the orders of the great sages, Brāhmiṇs and respectable gentlemen. He became very much upstart. So he became so strong that when he was travelling in the state, everyone was trembling. So very strong king. In this way, when he becomes too much powerful, then he began to preach atheism. And that is the way. The rākṣasī , the demonic way is that. If a demon becomes powerful—just like nowadays it is going on—some way or other if somebody becomes powerful, he doesn't care for the śāstric injunction or religion or God. They don't care for it. Just like there are many instances, Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, like that. So he also became like that. Then he began to order: By bugle announcement. In your country, I do not know, maybe. It is here in India still existing that if some public announcement has to be done, one takes a drum or bugle, he stands in one place and bugles or beats the drum. People then gathered, they announce something that, "This will be done. This is the order of the king or the state." Is there any such system in your country? Śyāmasundara: Formerly there was. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Formerly there was. A town crier. Prabhupāda: Trumpeting. Śyāmasundara: They call it town crier. Prabhupāda: Town crier. Yes, yes. Śyāmasundara: He would go around and announce. Prabhupāda: Yes, the town crier. So the town crier began to preach that, "No more any sacrifice or yajña . Stop all this nonsense. (chuckles) No more Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ." (chuckles) Yes, they . . . just like in Russia we are afraid, of China, yes, they will immediately arrest. So this declaration was there, public. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na : no charity, no more charity. Just like government at the present moment, they are allowing charity still, but most of the portion of the income they take away by income tax, so that one may not have any power to give in charity. So at the present moment, the government does not declare that charity is illegal, but that time is coming very soon, very soon. As soon as there will be Communist government . . . our Indira Gandhi is cooperating with the Russian, and as soon as she is under the control of the Russian, gradually Communism will be introduced. People are afraid of this attempt by Indira Gandhi. *So anyway, these such things were existing formerly also, but they were not very common affair. Sometimes after many, many years, if a bad king would come . . . throughout the history, at least in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , we find this one king only, Vena, who declared the sacrifice, charity, illegal. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na dātavyaṁ na hotavyaṁ dvijāḥ kvacit (SB 4.14.6), by the Brāhmiṇs . Just like the other day it was published in the paper that this India spiritual, this is a myth. They are also declaring. Iti nyavārayad dharmaṁ . So execution of religious principle was forbidden, nyavārayat. Bherī-ghoṣeṇa. Bherī means bugle, by bugle, sarvaśaḥ , everywhere. So all the great sages and saintly person, Brāhmiṇs , they assembled together and began to consider, "Now what to be done? This rascal king has declared like this and making things hellish. What to do?" *This is the problem of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that people are becoming more and more godless. And one may think that unnecessarily we have taken this responsibility to make them God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see. There was no need to make this propaganda all over the world. But actually, the saintly persons have concern. Just like the other day I told you, Prahlāda Mahārāja was concerned that these rascals, for temporary so*-called . . . (break) . . . people are engaged unnecessarily to work very hard day and night, the capitalist, the worker. Big, big factory, iron factory, in so many factories, unnecessarily. So Prahlāda Mahārāja was concerned. He was living—his father was a demon—in the demonic state. *So this is natural. If one saintly person do not be disturbed by people's unhappiness, he is not saintly person. He is not saintly person. If he is simply satisfied that, "I have got a temple, I am getting good income. Let me eat and sleep . . ." No. My Guru Mahārāja condemned this process. He said that to earn livelihood by showing some temple and collecting money and eat and sleep, better to become a sweeper in the street and earn his livelihood instead of earning livelihood in this so*-called spiritual way. So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achara, taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. As in your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. Just see. They're getting money. *So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy*-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, and eat and sleep, and if possible drink also . . ." But of course, we are restricting. But naturally when become . . . when one man becomes idle, "Idle brain is the devil's workshop." So if he can get . . . just like rich man's son, they become. Everyone has got experience in every country. When he has no difficulty to get money, then what he will do? He will simply drink or invent some means of intoxication, naked dance. This is the . . . *So they became very much perturbed. Venasyāvekṣya durvṛttasya viceṣṭitam, vimṛśya loka*-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma . . . kṛpāya , they were very much compassionate. They cannot see. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī . Therefore, Vaiṣṇava is always unhappy by seeing others' unhappiness. They know how they are going to hell. Just like any gentleman will be aggrieved when they pass on the Bowery Street, seeing their fallen condition. So if any gentleman can become unhappy by seeing such condition of people, what to speak of saintly persons, who are supposed to be responsible for spiritual uplift . . . Devotee: Ahhhh! Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: A monkey. No one is guarding. They are probably taking . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somebody must be there. So monkeys, they are now taking advantage that, "These people have got some eatables." Therefore Darwin's theory is from monkey. That's a fact. From the monkey, cow and lion, the next birth is human life. *So vimṛśya loka*-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma satriṇaḥ , they began to discuss how to mitigate the troubles of the people. They began to discuss that aho ubhayataḥ prāptaṁ lokasya vyasanaṁ mahat : people, they are now disturbed both ways. One way, the king is a rascal. Another way is that taking advantage of the bad king, the thieves and rogues, they are also very powerful. So just see how the saintly persons become compassionate with the people, that they are both ways. *Actually, at the present moment, people are disturbed by unnecessary taxes, at the same time, bad elements. So without proper king, without nice state, everyone is unhappy. And that is going on nowadays. In the Kali*-yuga it will go on, continue, and more and more people will be unhappy. "If people are disturbed in this way, both ways, from the state side and from the rogue side, then how they will live peacefully?" Just like we sometimes say that if the politicians and the statesmen they are so irresponsible, fighting amongst themselves to capture the power, where is the time for them to think of people's welfare? They cannot. It is not possible. The same thing happened there. Tato api āsīd bhayaṁ tu adya kathaṁ syāt svasti dehinām. Svasti means peacefulness, dehinām , of the embodied living entities, dehinām . *Nirūpitaḥ prajā*-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ . So Vena, here it is mentioned, sunīthā-garbha-sambhavaḥ . His mother's name was Sunīthā . She was also daughter of a very bad king, and she inherited the father's quality. And the son also inherited the mother's quality. This is also true. The son inherits mother's quality, and the daughter inherits father's quality. *So because the grandfather of Vena Mahārāja was a bad man, his daughter, means Sunīthā , the mother of Vena, she became bad. And naturally her son, Vena, she (he) became bad. The father was very nice, good king. But because the mother was not good, the son became bad. Here is the evidence. Sunīthā*-garbha-sambhavaḥ . Sunīthā. His mother's name was Sunīthā. Because he was born in the womb of Sunīthā, a bad woman, therefore, he . . . nirūpitaḥ prajā-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ : he has been elected as the king to protect the citizens. Instead of protecting, he is disturbing. Now there is another saintly compassion: "Never mind he has done so much mischievous activities, this king; still it is our duty to go to him and give him good advice, so that all these disturbances may be stopped and people will become happy." Just mark this point that formerly the government could not be irresponsible, because the saintly person, they are always thinking welfare of the people in general. Mark this point. So therefore, a saintly person duty is to protect the prajā , the citizen, in a system so that they may become happy both materially and spiritually. This is one of the duty of the saintly person. Not that, "Let me go to Himalaya and press my nose, and I become liberated." This is not saintly person. This is not saintly person. You see? Saintly person means they should be interested with the public welfare, real public welfare. And public welfare means every citizens should be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then they will be happy, both materially and spiritually. My point is that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not selfish movement. It is the most philanthropic movement. But people, in the name of philanthropic movement, generally, because they are not actually saintly persons, they collect money and live. *Just like we can say frankly that the Ramakrishna Mission, they are collecting money, huge money, from your country, here also, to mitigate the sufferings of the poor people, daridra*-nārāyaṇa seva . But actually you see that how many poverty-stricken people are there in India. And if you go to the Ramakrishna Mission, you will see all the svāmīs , they are living in royal order. You see? This is going on. But people are still fool that . . . but your American people now, they are questioning. That one svāmī , Nikhilananda, he told me personally that the American people now questioning that, "You collect money for feeding the poor, but when we go to India, we see so many people lying down on the street." So they are questioning. Naturally there will be question. So . . . (someone enters) Ohhh, Hare Kṛṣṇa! (chuckles) So our Jaipur party is becoming stronger and stronger. So what news from Delhi? (end) Conversation -- January 19, 1972, Jaipur (Conversation on SB 1.5.11) Prabhupāda: . . . these people or this revolution is meant for killing the sinful resultant action of the people. This revolution. Janatā agha. Agha means resultant action of sinful life. So janatā agha viplavaḥ. Viplavaḥ means revolution. This very word is used. *Such revolutionary literature, even they are not properly composed, yasmin prati-ślokam abaddham , not according to the grammatical rules and other rhetorical rules, but the, I mean to say, thoughts and the effects of such revolutionary literature is required. Not the grammatical. The so*-called rascals, they are concerned with the grammatical. But those who are actually worker, they are concerned with the thoughts. What is the thought is there? Therefore, it is said that: If there is simply the attempt is there how to glorify the Supreme Lord. That is a fact. It doesn't matter whether it is written in correct language or incorrect language. It doesn't matter. If the whole thought is targeted to glorify the Supreme Lord, then nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'nkitāni yat gṛṇanti gāyanti śṛṇvanti sādhavaḥ . Then those who are actually sādhu , even in spite of all these defects, because the only attempt is to glorify the Lord, then those who are sādhu , those who are devotee, they hear it. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti . Not only hear, they chant also the same thing. And not only chant, but gṛṇanti , they apply in their actual life. This is the Bhāgavata śloka . Is it clear now? Yes. *Tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo . If the thought is revolutionary for transcendental realization, even it is not properly composed from grammatical and literary point of view, because the attempt is there for glorifying the Supreme Lord, all devotee, all great sages, saintly persons, sādhavaḥ, gṛṇanti , they accept. Yes. Gṛṇanti śṛṇvanti , hear with attention, and gāyanti , and chant also. This is the principle. The only center is whether it is meant for awakening God consciousness. That is the central point, not the language. But it does not mean that it should not be correctly written. Correctly or incorrectly, if it is spoken by realized soul, that is important. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti . Some way or other, if the attempt is to glorify the Supreme Lord. *Otherwise, if the attempt is to kill the Supreme Lord . . . just like Dr. Radhakrishnan: what is the value of such erudition? A rascal. That is called vāk*-cāturyam , jugglery of words. It has no value. Anyone who is trying to present . . . just like Aurabindo, he has no idea what is Kṛṣṇa, and writing so many nonsense things. Vivekananda, he has no idea. Dr. Radhakrishnan. Rabindranath Tagore, he has no idea what is God, but he is writing Gītāñjali. That should be tested by life. Caitanya Mahāprabhu speaking, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya : He behaves Himself perfectly, and then teaches how to become a devotee. He is mad after Kṛṣṇa; He is falling down in the sea. You see? So that is wanted. And the Bhāgavata also says, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir . . . (SB 1.2.6), how one has increased his devotion and love for Kṛṣṇa, that is the test of it. Not these formalities. *Another place Kṛṣṇa says, api cet su*-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). Even sudurācāraḥ , even not well behaved, but unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ , he is sādhu . Don't consider about his misbehaviors. That is not consideration. That will be corrected. Because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, gradually those things, those defects will be corrected. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati (BG 9.31): he will become very soon a great religious soul because he has taken to Kṛṣṇa. So in the beginning if there is some defect, we should not consider that. We have to see how much his love for Kṛṣṇa has increased. That is the test. Not the formalities. That is the test: how much he has sacrificed for Kṛṣṇa, how much he is prepared to sacrifice for Kṛṣṇa. If one takes Kṛṣṇa for making business, that is different thing. That is not devotion. Śālagrāma . . . My Guru Maharaja used to say, śālagrām diye badam bhanga . Just like you have seen śālagrāma . So if somebody takes that and breaks peanuts, so there is no devotion. It is a show. During . . . attracting the visitors, it is nicely decorated, but in their absence, take it and you will have stone. So all this, mostly the temple show is going on like that. They have made it a show of business. The devotees will come and pay something, and I may have devotion or not devotion, it doesn't . . . one should be bahyābhyantaraḥ śuciḥ (Garuḍa Purāṇa), inside and outside perfect. And then, against this: *Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśaḥ . You can present a literature very perfect from literary point of view, from metaphor and poetical, rhetorical, very perfectly written, citra-padam , attractive by language. Na yad vacaś citra-padam . Such kind of literature, if there is no description of the glories of the Lord, na tad vacaś citra-padam . . . just like there are so many sex literature, very attractive, it is selling like anything. But we are not interested in those rascal literature. Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham : such literature is considered as the place of enjoyment of the crows. *Vāyasam means crow. The crow take enjoyment in the garbage. You have seen? They won't go in a nice place. They will come all together. Just like vultures, they come together to take pleasure in a corpse, dead body. But a white swan, rāja*-haṁsa , he goes to a place where there is nice water, lilies and lotus and nice trees. You have seen that St. James's Park? Yes. They will find out such nice place. They won't go to imitate the crows. The crows-like people will take pleasure in such nonsense literature, sex literature, or any such literature. So many nonsense literatures nowadays they are having good sale. *Because people are becoming crows*-like, they have no high idea, they have no sense of Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *naturally they will take. Just like hippies, they have become all bad taste, crows*-like. So we have to become swans, rāja-haṁsa, paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). Then you can understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you remain crows, then you cannot; that is not possible. *So by nature's example we have to see if crows*-like and swans-like, pigeons-like, birds of the same feather. "Birds of the same feather flock together," is it not? So you have to change your feather, then he will be pleased. If you keep your feather the crows-like, then you cannot mix with the swans. That is not possible. This is the test. There are classes of men like crows, and there are classes of men like swans. So we are preparing our devotee . . . (aside) What is that? Devotee (1): Is anybody watching? Devotee (2): No . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means swanlike. They should be like swans. Their behavior should be like swans. They should live in cleansed place, at refreshing place. So as soon as somebody will come to the temple, he will be . . . (aside) You have some papers I shall show? *Śyāmasundara: I just wanted to check and see if there's somebody here. It's Nanda*-kumāra. *Prabhupāda: So keep this principle in view, that you have to become swan, not crows. They say that everyone, every religion is all the same. This is all nonsense. Not same. In Bhagavad*-gītā there are different types of religion, sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika . And our this . . . if you take it as religion, this is transcendental. Sa vai puṁsām paro dharmo (SB 1.2.6). Paraḥ means transcendental. It is not ordinary, aparaḥ . In aparaḥ dharma , the materialistic dharma , there are ritualistic ceremonies how to make one perfect for accepting transcendental religion. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is directly putting oneself in the transcendental. That is the special . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (aside) Why don't you close it? *Caitanya*-caritāmṛta say, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya (CC Madhya 22.62). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is to be supposed that you have finished all other types of religion. My Guru Maharaja used to cite one example that one's friend was sitting on the high-court judge's bench. *So he was speaking to another, "Oh, that Panchu was playing with us naked. He is sitting on the high*-court judge's bench. Oh, how he was playing with us naked? How he is seated in the high-court bench?" "Yes, I have seen. You have seen actually he is sitting." "Oh, then he must not be getting salary. He must not be getting salary." You see? So this is the argument. Familiarity breeds contempt. So he cannot believe that he has become a high-court judge. He thinks that "I am a rascal, fool, and my friend, how he can become high-court judge? He must not be getting salary." *But is that very good argument, such a high*-court judge is seated there without any salary? This argument is . . . that is enviousness. Nirmatsaratā . That is the habit of the conditioned soul. So if one . . . (break) Prabhupāda: There is another example, just one sees the moon "oh,"everyone says it is very beautiful, I spite upon it (makes spitting sound) so what is that spite? Devotees: (laugh) Prabhupāda: He falls on his face. Devotees: (laugh) Prabhupāda: The moon is far away, the moon is far away from him but he spites and it falls upon him. Devotees: (laugh) *Prabhupāda: So when a person becomes envious of a great person then he spites and the spite falls upon him . . . and he is far away. And the High Court judge one may accept him that he's not getting salary but he will get his salary, that's all. So parama . . . this bhāgavata*-dharma is for the parama-nirmatsarāṇām those who are not envious. These people are envious they have no personal capacity but they are very much expert to become envious of a person who is capable. *These are crows like, vulture like, tad*-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo . So our this movement is not liked by these men, those who are habituated to spite upon the moon. They do not like us because it is hampering . . . it is revolutionary . . . it is hampering their business, that you will have to face but you have to go steady, you can do it . . . just like Gauracand Gosvāmī, you see? What he is? *But he is sitting there as sevite*-gosvāmī . The same things are going on like that everywhere. He has no education, he has no spiritual life, habituated to all bad habits, all cliques, all cheating everything but he is the head sevite , this is going on. They have no respect for Vaiṣṇavas, so everywhere you find such things. Devotee: And everybody knows it but nobody actually wants to do anything. So many people that know it in Vṛndāvana, we talk to them but they don’t want to do anything . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Devotee: Yes everyone knows. Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Devotee: They can see it. First time I visited, I was speaking, I wasn’t saying anything I was just watching and he took out a cigarette, what is this a Svāmī smoking? Devotee: You used to give the example, "Oh he is an important man, he is an important man," but his child says: "He is not important he's my father." Prabhupāda: Yes there is the English word, "Familiarity breeds contempt." If an important man is familiar, so he doesn’t think that he is very important, that is nature. So now you can disperse, the time is spent. (end) Conversation Hindi -- February 6, 1972, Bombay Prabhupāda: Conversation -- February 12, 1972, Madras Devotee: . . . by practicing . . . (indistinct) . . . (Tamil) Rajaji: (Tamil) Śyāmasundara: Where you are sitting? Rajaji: I am sitting here, so that I might give my right ear to you all. I haven't seen you before. Śyāmasundara: I'm Śyāmasundara. Rajaji: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your seat. Rajaji: Very good, Where is my seat? Prabhupāda: You can take it, this seat. Rajaji: (indistinct) . . . the camera should have operated on your beautiful sārī . It's very good. Who is the chief of your group? You or he? Prabhupāda: (laughter) As you like. Rajaji: He holds a big stick, so I'm asking. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda is the chief. He has given me the stick. Rajaji: Where is my negro friend? He has not come? Prabhupāda: Oh, he is not come. There was no place in the car. There are many negroes. Rajaji: (aside) Sit closer. You belong to this place? No. What place you belong to? (Tamil with Mr. Sharma) It's a pretty long stick . . . (indistinct) . . . let me have a look at it first. It's wrapped in cloth. Oh, I see. Madhudviṣa: It is four bamboos. Rajaji: Huh? *Madhudviṣa: It is called tri*-daṇḍi. Tridaṇḍi . Rajaji: Tridaṇḍa . Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Tridaṇḍa . Prabhupāda: This is Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava. Rajaji: Are there three sticks in it? Madhudviṣa: No, there are three pieces—one, two, three. There is four sticks wrapped here. Rajaji: You have taken sannyāsa ? Madhudviṣa: Our Guru Maha . . . Prabhupāda has given me sannyāsa . Rajaji: Sannyāsa . Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Then only you can hold it. Madhudviṣa: Yes. Rajaji: Yes, yes. Sit down, sit down. I will make the camera come out. (laughter) Can you take a photograph? Devotee: Huh? Rajaji: Photo? No, you can't. Guest (2): I can't, no . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Maybe he's too close. That's why it won't turn out. *Rajaji: Very well. I was told you were seventy*-six. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rajaji: You don't look like that. I think that's not correct age. Probably you are fifty*-six. (laughter) How many of you here . . .? How many are you here . . .? Will you sit nearer here? Girirāja: I . . . this is your good ear? Rajaji: Yes. This is my good ear. Yes. Girirāja: I'll sit on the white bench. Rajaji: You can sit here. Prabhupāda: Then you can sit down . . . Rajaji: How many are you here in Madras? Girirāja: About fifteen are here in Madras now. Rajaji: Fifteen or fifty? Girirāja: Fifteen. *Prabhupāda: One*-five. *Rajaji: One*-five. Girirāja: Yes. Rajaji: How many are women and how many are men? Girirāja: Two women and one child woman. Rajaji: Three? The rest are boys? Young men. Girirāja: Yes. *Rajaji: From seventy*-six downwards. (laughter) Girirāja: Yes. Rajaji: You belong to West Bengal, I think? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: West Bengal. Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Rajaji: Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Great and famous place. Looked after . . . Prabhupāda: Where you were governor also. Rajaji: Looked after very badly. Very badly. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Lalaji was governor in West Bengal. Rajaji: How you have . . . yes. I was called governor for some time there. I liked the place when I was there. They were all very kind. They had settled down after a lot of rioting and death, and all that, they had settled down. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: They were all very good to me. They looked upon me as a . . . an impartial man, which is a very great compliment in our country. Now you have undertaken a very great task. I am not competent to discuss or comment on it. Prabhupāda: No, I think you are the best man to comment upon it. Rajaji: True. Still, I am not presumptuous enough to comment on one who has actually taken up the work. That is the difference between thinking and doing. Thinking is easy. Doing requires inspiration, and you have taken it up. *Prabhupāda: I was thinking of taking up this task long, long ago. I wrote one letter to Mahatma Gandhi that, "You have got influence all over the world, and you are acknowledged a man of spiritual understanding. Now you have got svarāj , you better retire and take up this preaching of Bhagavad*-gītā all over the world." *Rajaji: He was doing if from the beginning—not exclusively that, but applying the Bhagavad*-gītā to everything that he was doing. He was doing it really. But you are referring to concentrated, exclusive . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . teaching of the doctrines a way of life described in . . . Prabhupāda: Sometimes I requested Dr. Radhakrishnan also . . . Rajaji: Huh? *Prabhupāda: . . . when he was vice*-president. Rajaji: Radhakrishnan? Nowhere in comparison with Gandhi. Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Rajaji: Radhakrishnan, highly intellectual, good man, but he was more of a . . . there was no inspiration he gave. Prabhupāda: No, no. Rajaji: God seems to have decided to spare him (laughs) from that, from hard work. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Rajaji: He was very happy, and he was very good and I love . . . I have great love for him, and he was a very just man. He was a teacher of . . . Prabhupāda: In Calcutta he was a professor. *Rajaji: . . . politics, not of the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Now, would you allow me to think aloud . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . in the matter you have taken up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: First of all, they are scattered all over the world, your Society. Scattered all over the world. They do not live together anywhere. Prabhupāda: No. I have got different centers. Rajaji: You have. Prabhupāda: Yes. In different cities. Rajaji: And they live together there? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got devotees in each center not less than twenty*-five, and up to two hundred. Rajaji: I see. Oh, as big as that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Now, taking up my thoughts on the crude difficulties of management. First of all there is the very crude necessity of getting money to run these institutions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: And that means . . . Prabhupāda: I may inform you, in this connection . . . Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: . . . that we are spending at the present moment seventy to eighty thousand dollars per month. Rajaji: That's right. So whatever the exact amount may be, it's likely to be a big amount, and that means befriending people who will be prepared to part with the money . . . *Prabhupāda: Hard*-earned money. Rajaji: . . . the money that they worship. Eh? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Money god is greater than Brahma and Śiva and Viṣṇu, just about, unfortunately. The people have made an idol of gold and silver and letter of paper, paper meaning the promises of government . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . which are never kept. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I was going to say, it is a fraud. Rajaji: Fraud. Prabhupāda: Māyā . Rajaji: But that is . . . Prabhupāda: It is māyā . I give you piece of paper, and you think one thousand rupees. This is māyā . Rajaji: Yes. You see it depends on the credit to the man who gives the promise. Paper is mainly the document of credit. Governments have till now kept their credit, but now they have learned to disregard their promises also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: So that is one of the main troubles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: But I think any religious movement like yours, people think they can buy up the grace of God by giving some money. Right? So you won't find any difficulty in getting money, because there is air of sin in the world, and the sinful people think they can compromise by giving money. Let them give. Prabhupāda: That is also good. Rajaji: Let them give. That . . . but that is the smallest point. Another point is, I suppose in each institution, in each center, there are men as well as woman . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . and they live together. Prabhupāda: Not together. Woman's section is different. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: Women's section is different. Rajaji: Different. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: It's very important . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . because all religious organizations have floundered on scandal, and you will have to be very careful about that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: This is what an old man has a right to tell you. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, from the very beginning, because in Western countries the boys and girls, they intermingle very freely. Rajaji: Oh, yes, we know all that. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Rajaji: We know for a fact. Prabhupāda: . . . and therefore I, as far as possible, I get them married. Rajaji: Yes. But that doesn't prevent permissive culture. It acts as a sort of guarantee (Prabhupāda laughs), as a sort of insurance against scandal. But scandals do come out. Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is a . . . Rajaji: So you are left with, that is another crude problem . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Rajaji: . . . that you have to take great care about. The traditional life of separate living is safer for organization. So all right to have men and are married and then in family they can mix. There is no difficulty. But when you start the separate organization, against which people are ready to manufacture stories, then you will have to be much more careful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: So that is one comment I make as an old man. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are very valuable. Yes. Rajaji: That is a wise thing from an old man. That's one thing. Then these are minor matters. On the philosophy of action which you have taken . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . of converting the people to Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Consciousness. Rajaji: . . . to worship of Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: . . . I wonder whether you will place more importance, I ask my friend, Mr . . . uh . . . Prabhupāda: Girirāja. Rajaji: . . . Girirāja, whether it is the *Gītā* that you may stress on or the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: *Gītā* is the preliminary study of *Bhāgavatam* . *Rajaji: True, but in Bhāgavatam there is lots of danger, so far as Śrī Kṛṣṇa goes. The Bhāgavatam , so far as it relates to the other incarnations of Mahā*-Viṣṇu its self, different, but so far as Śrī Kṛṣṇa goes, it deals with a chapter of His life which can mislead people . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are very cautious. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: That we are very cautious. Rajaji: You will have to be very cautious. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was discussing this point . . . Rajaji: Generally, generally people begin to think, "I am Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: Ah, that is nonsense. Rajaji: ". . . God." That is what happens. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rajaji: Now, that is a danger. But so far as the Gītā-ācārya's teachings, who is a different person . . . there's no reference to early life in Vyāsa's Bhagavad*-gītā . The Bhagavad-gītā is simply about an ācārya . Occasionally He says "I am īśvara ," but He's an ācārya primarily. I need not . . . I am not trying to sermonize to you, but I'm trying to explain what I feel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: Very difficult doctrine of detachment. The Gītā-ācārya says sannyāsa is difficult, and you are likely to become a hypocrite if you, if you . . . Prabhupāda: Mithyācāraḥ sa ucyate ( BG 3.6). Rajaji: . . . if you prematurely take sannyāsa . Therefore try and compromise the principles of sannyāsa , that is to say of renunciation, with worldly action, and, I mean, performance of duty, by performing the duties without caring for the results. That is the renunciation He has preached, I have understood. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: The Gītā-ācārya that . . . (indistinct) . . . will confirm, I have no doubt. But the question which I put to Girirāja was whether it would not have been better if you work from inside rather than make yourself a separate cult and organization. Separate organization, once you form it, becomes like a person who is born. He gets his attachment, his ego, his everything. So the separate organization, like Mr. Banu, becomes an ego. He is fond of his own attachments, of his own interest, and so the organization must be looked after. The organization should succeed . . . the organization should succeed better than other organizations. There is . . . (indistinct) . . . among organizations. So all the egotistic weaknesses apply to organizations also. Therefore I was wondering whether it would not, if you had convinced that your mission was to spread the Gītā-ācārya's teachings as to how to act with detachment and with faith in the grace of God, where you go wrong, could not be having better done without making yourself separate. Prabhupāda: No. The thing is, when there is detachment, there must be another attachment. Rajaji: Yes. To God. Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is required. Rajaji: Huh? Prabhupāda: That is required. Just like . . . Rajaji: Yes. Attachment to . . . there is a Tamil, Kurul. You have heard of the name Kurul, Thiruvalluvar—it is classic, Tamil classic—makes this point very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: If you wish to live without detachment, attach yourself to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rajaji: That will be the . . . Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Rajaji: Eh? Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate . Rajaji: Yes. Prabhupāda: After getting good attachment, one gives up the inferior attachment. Rajaji: Right. That will better right. The attachment should be to God. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Rajaji: Kṛṣṇa, Govinda, as I will call Him. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rajaji: Attachment should be to Govinda, not to an organization. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Govinda is absolute. Govinda and Govinda's organization, the same. Govinda is absolute. Rajaji: I don't want to discuss it, I told you. I'm not competent to discuss. I'm just telling you what I think. Prabhupāda: No. I'm also answering this point. Just like Kṛṣṇa, His name, His form, His pastimes, His entourage, they are all the same. Otherwise, what is the benefit of chanting Kṛṣṇa's name? Suppose I am thirsty just now. If I simply chant the name of water, "water," I'll not be satisfied. Water is required, actual substance. But when we chant "Kṛṣṇa," if Kṛṣṇa name is different from Kṛṣṇa, then you . . . (end) Conversation -- February 15, 1972, Madras Prabhupāda: (reading) ". . . (indistinct) . . . from Him, his mind becomes totally associated with Him. His Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda in his discourse at the . . . (indistinct) . . . Sunday, said there was no rigid rules and regulations for chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, nor does it require formal education. While uttering the name of Śrī Kṛṣṇa one should focus the mind on the image and form of the Lord, His auspicious activities, His delightful sport, and His role as Gītā-ācārya ." *"Lord Caitanya, during His visit to a temple in South India, found a man scanning the pages of the Bhagavad*-gītā without seeming to read the verses, and inquiring, the same found that the person was illiterate, and yet he was turning the pages of the Gītā at the request of his master, because as he did so, he had a vision of Śrī Kṛṣṇa expounding spiritual knowledge to Arjuna on the Kurukṣetra battlefield. Thereupon Caitanya embraced him in all admiration for his devotion, sincere faith and guidance of the spiritual master as necessary for God realization." They give very nice article. You have seen it? Śyāmasundara: No. (pause) He doesn't give the receipt number. He says . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . all the educated men. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ ( BG 3.21). If the, who is called, elite society appreciate, then ordinary people will always appreciate. Before my Guru Maharaja, and Bhaktisiddhānta's . . . Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Lord Caitanya's cult was considered by the higher class as it is the business of the low*-class men. Even Vivekananda remarked that, "It is the religion of sex." Because they saw that the sahajiyās , they discussed this rāsa-līlā and have illicit connection with woman. So therefore they took it as the religion of sex. Vivekananda. But now . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . the bhakti marg was right now considered as the job of the elders. *Prabhupāda: These were the remark. And now we have to establish this, that this is the only way to reach God. You have to become scholar, philosopher, worker, practical behavior. And that is the fact. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66)? You have to prove it. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ (SB 1.1.2): "Except surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, anything, that is simply cheating," cheating, kaitavaḥ , cheating religion. This is challenged by God, cheating religion. We have to save people from the cheating type of religion, cheating type of guru, cheating type of dharma. It is so important movement. So this is very good time, this high-court judges. And yesterday also, I blessed before them what, vicāra . You marked? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.1). Vicāra means statement. "Just try to understand the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and give your judgement." This is not a sentimental, as people take it as a sentimental. No. Most scientific, logical. So how they like that slides? Girirāja: Very much. I think we may have a brief slide show tonight also. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got all the slides? Girirāja: We have many slides of paintings, of different activities . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . have no attachment. These are all nonsense. It cannot be poisoned. A living being, to become desireless, how you can? I am living. I am not a dead body. Desire should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Attachment should be for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. You have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have now attachment for sense gratification, desire for sense gratification. This has to be changed. Purification of desire, purification of attachment. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Eyes, because it is diseased, should not be plucked out. This is nonsense. Cure the eyes of the disease, then you will see things right. The Māyāvādī philosophy is pluck out the eyes. Buddha philosophy is make it zero. That is also same thing, plucking out. Our philosophy is, "No. Cure it." That is the difference. It is very simple. Which one is better, the eyes? Just like a man is suffering from disease, fever, and doctor gives him medicine—he dies. Then the patient's guardian says, "Sir, he is dead now. You have given some medicine, he is dead." "That's all right, fever is gone. Fever is gone. Never mind he is dead." (laughter) (laughs) These rascal philosophy statement is like that. Make zero. Make imperson. Then the difficulties of personality . . . because they have got very bad experience of personality here. He had to become minister, he has become king and this and that, householder, all botheration. So make imperson. Let go. That's all. Negation. Personality is giving us trouble, so make imperson. God must be imperson, because as soon as we have person, there is trouble. They have got experience. But the Buddha's philosophy is there and as soon as they . . . (indistinct) . . . make it zero, then there is no pains and pleasure. This body, because Buddha philosophy does not give any idea of soul—bodily concept. So body is combination of matter, so dismantle this combination. Just like you have got a skyscraper building, so you have to pay tax. Break it, make it zero, so no tax. This is philosophy. Do you follow it? You have got a very big building, so you have to pay tax. To save tax, break the building. No more taxes. No more pains and pleasure. No more anxiety. That is Buddha philosophy. That means these philosophers are called fools and rascal, less intelligent. Would you like this advice, that you have got a big building, just like in London there is a big building, and he has got a policy anyway that he does not allow any tenant? Largest building in London—to save tax. But his point is different. In Bengali there is adage that, corer upar rag kore, ghure bhat khao, (angered at the thief, turn around and eat rice)—that a man's utensils were stolen by a thief, so he became very angry, that thief has taken all my utensil. All right, I shall not purchase utensil. I shall take food on the floor. I shall take food on the floor. No more utensils. I shall not keep plates and utensil any more. I shall take food on the floor." This is philosophy. (break) *We don't believe in so*-called nonviolence, non attachment, zero. No. We believe in everything, if there is required violence, fight, "Yes, come on." Yes. Arjuna. No consideration, "The other side my grandfather, my father, or this or that. Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Kill them all." . . . (indistinct) . . . gopīs, at dead of night they went with Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa wants us. Oh, we don't care for all this social convention. Kick out. So let's go" (phone ringing) Prahlāda Mahārāja, Nṛsiṁha-deva killing his father, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is taking pleasure in killing my father. That's all right. (laughter) That I don't protest." He could have said, "My dear Lord, please do not kill my father." Immediately he would have been saved . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Could be Puri Maharaja. *Prabhupāda: Go, go, go. So that is our point. Bali Mahārāja, he saw that his so*-called Śukrācārya, caste goswāmī , is checking him to offer anything to Vāmanadev, "Oh, I don't like you. I reject you. I don't want a spiritual master like you, who is checking me for offering to Kṛṣṇa." This is a mahājana . Prahlāda Mahārāja became mahājana . gopīs became the topmost devotee. Why? For Kṛṣṇa. They neglected any social convention, this, that. "No. Kṛṣṇa must be satisfied." That is the most . . . that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. (break) (telephone conversation) Hello. Who is there? Puri Mahārāja? Ah, daṇḍavats, daṇḍavats. Ta bhalo achen to? Cithi pan ni sejonyeito telegram dilam. Ta amra ta . . . ah . . . krpay hocche sob, ar apnake Mayapure yete hobe amar sange. Hya. Ar ye amader Nityananda prabhu, apni, apnar sob . . . huh? Hya . . . besh. (I hope you are doing well. Because you haven't received the letter, that's why again I sent a telegram. We . . . huh . . . everything is happening by mercy . . . and you have to go to Mayapur with me. Yes. Our Nityananda prabhu and you, all your . . . what? Hah . . . as you say.) (break) Śyāmasundara: So we, we should get tickets today . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Śyāmasundara: . . . for leaving on . . . Prabhupāda: On seventeenth. Śyāmasundara: . . . seventeenth. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Yes. We shall pay for his expenditure. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And Nityananda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Did he say anything about that Nit . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, Nityananda is coming today. Śyāmasundara: Good. Prabhupāda: I have asked . . . (indistinct) . . . he should also go. So now on seventeenth we must start. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Make arrangements like that. Śyāmasundara: Some party can go tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Rest on seventeenth. And we will see if there is airline connection. Prabhupāda: If airline is not possible, maybe will go by train or . . . (break) . . . preach like this. Mālatī: Haribol. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughing) Mālatī: Jaya. It was very good meeting. Prabhupāda: That for the fifty years they are here, nobody can find. Gaudīya Maṭha is known as Indian temple. That's all. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No preaching. Śyāmasundara: He's making publicity up there? Prabhupāda: Yes. He can take all these placards. Yes. We have got remaining placards? Śyāmasundara: Yes. (break) Prabhupāda: Only is, point is, "Make it zero. And so long you are living, enjoy as you like, because afterwards you are going to be zero. There is no responsibility. So you gratify your senses to the fullest extent." That's all. Just like—I do not know—I have never hanged—but anyone who is going to be hanged, he is offered that, "Whatever you want, you can enjoy." Is that . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . fact? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So their philosophy, "You are going to be hanged. Now you can enjoy whatever you like." So this philosophy then. Because the Māyāvādī philosophy is impersonal, zero, therefore people don't care for sin. "Enjoy life. You shall finish." Gurudas: There's the story of a man who is being hanged, and they said: "You can have whatever you want." So he said: "Whatever I want?" So they said: "Yes." So he says: "I want ten more years life." Prabhupāda: We don't say whatever you want. You enjoy. Gratify your senses as much as you like. *Mālatī: Prabhupāda? What class of impersonalists are worshiping the Puruṣa*-sūkta ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mālatī: What class of impersonalists are worshiping the universal form? Prabhupāda: Well, universal form is not impersonal. That is personal. That is also manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Mālatī: But you say that . . . in one of your purports you are saying that the impersonalists are worshiping the universal form. Prabhupāda: They are advised. Śyāmasundara: Ah, advised to worship. Mālatī: They are advised to worship. Prabhupāda: Nobody is advised to . . . there is no worship for impersonalists. There is no . . . Mālatī: Oh. (pause) (end) Conversation Hindi -- February 16, 1972, Madras Prabhupāda: HINDI TRANSLATION प्रभुपाद: श्याम को सवेरे, आधा घंटा श्याम को, आधा घंटा सवेरे हरी नाम कीजिये, ये शास्त्र का निर्देश है; ये हमलोग का प्रचार का विषय है। हमलोग भी ये कहते हैं। निवेदन करता हूँ की हरी नाम जप कीजिये और लाभ उठाइये। बोलिये आपका कुछ प्रश्न है तो पूछिए। गेस्ट: ये की जो आम आदमी करता है, वो भगवान कहता ही है की आप इसको । प्रभुपाद: ये भी तो भगवान कहता है हरे कृष्णा बोलना। क्यों नहीं बोलते हैं? गेस्ट: नहीं नहीं। मैं आपके आंसर चाहता हूँ की जो आप करता हैं, वो तो भगवान कहता हैं। प्रभुपाद: वो जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट है वो ज़बरदस्ती जो कह दिया उसको काम कराता है। कहता है की नहीं? बोलिये गेस्ट: हाँ। प्रभुपाद: वो कराता है न वो कर रहा है। जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट का क्या ज़रुरत है उसको बोलता है ए तुम करो नहीं तो मारेंगे थप्पड़। वो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट कराता है न वो करता है अपना कर्म से? बोलिये, जवाब दीजिये। गेस्ट: मैं तो आपको फॉलो (नॉट क्लियर)। प्रभुपाद: नहीं, देखिये जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट खड़ा हो करके एक आदमी को बोलता है (नॉट क्लियर)। उसको कराता है न वो करता है? वो ऐसा कुछ काम किया है जो जेल सुपरिन्टेन्डेन्ट को उससे कराना पड़ता है। गेस्ट: वो तो बात ठीक है। प्रभुपाद: वो ही बात है। आप कुछ काम ऐसे कीजिये जिसका फल स्वरुप आपको काम और कुछ करने पड़ेगा। वो भगवान कह रहा है, और भगवान का एजेंट कराता है। ये नही है की भगवान एक आदमी को बोलता है की तू चोरी कर और एक आदमी को बोलता है की तू साधु हो जा। ये बात नहीं है। जो चोरी किया था उसको बोलता है और तू चोरी कर और उसको पीटा जाये खूब अच्छी तरह से। गेस्ट: नहीं तो उसका कौन रेस्पोंसिबल हुआ जिस आदमी ने चोरी किया। प्रभुपाद: रेस्पोंसिबल तो वो ही हुआ जो चोरी किया था तभी तो उसको तोडना पड़ता है। जो चोरी नहीं किया उसको नहीं पड़ता है। Conversation 2 with Bob Cohen -- February 28, 1972, Mayapur Prabhupāda: You are feeling warm? Bob: Just tight. Prabhupāda: Too tight. Bob: I was cold before. (break) Thank you so much for allowing me to ask my questions. *Prabhupāda: No, that is my mission, that people should understand the science of God. Because I am convinced that it's a fact, that without again cooperating with the Supreme Lord, our life is baffled. I give this example many times. Just like a screw from the machine fallen down, it has no value. The same screw, when it is again attached with the machine, it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. Without God, as part*-and-parcel small screw, what is the value? No value. We should again come back to the position of becoming a screw. That is our mission. Bob: I met a fellow today who came in the afternoon. Well, his reason for coming, he said, you may find humorous, was to come . . . he heard the hippies were in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: He heard that hippie . . . (break) . . . I was talking to him, and then some devotees were talking to him. And he had said some things to me which I could find no answer for. And he said he'll come back tomorrow to see devotees. But let me tell you. This is confusing. When he was young . . . Prabhupāda: He's Indian? He's Indian or . . .? Bob: Indian, Indian, lives nearby. He speaks English fairly well. When he was young, he said he worshiped Kālī every day very vigorously. But then the floods all came, and the floods came, and the people saw hardship. And now he has no religion, and he says he finds his happiness in trying to develop love among people. And I couldn't think of what to say to him to add religion to his life, to add God to his life. He says . . . I asked him . . . He says: "After the hereafter," he says, after he dies, he said: "Maybe I'll become part of God, maybe not," he says, but he can't worry about it now. He says he's tried this religious experience, it didn't work. And one reason I ask this is when I go back to America a lot of people I come across are like this. They see that religion, like his worship of Kālī or other kinds of religion that they've experienced, doesn't work. And I don't know what to say to them to convince them that it's worth trying. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You do not try to convince him at the present moment. You try to be convinced yourself. Bob: (laughs) Yes, yes. I did . . . I asked him to see devotees, but then on the way out as he was leaving down the road I met him again and talked, "Come back," but . . . oh, I see. Prabhupāda: You first of all be convinced, and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success. Janma sārthaka kari . First make your life perfect, and then try to make others'. Preach. (break) Bob: The devotees have said to me that without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa all the time, you cannot be happy. Without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy. Prabhupāda: At times. Not always. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you be Kṛṣṇa conscious you'll feel always happy. Bob: Oh. (laughter) They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: That's fact. Just like if you are an animal of this land, and if you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in the water in any condition. When you're again taken up to the land, then you'll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are thrown. The same example: The machine part and parcel without the machine has no value. But when it is put again into the machine it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we must join Kṛṣṇa. So you can join immediately with Kṛṣṇa by your consciousness. Simply thinking that, "I am Kṛṣṇa's; Kṛṣṇa mine." That's all. Bob: What is that . . . Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine." Bob: Mind, yes. Prabhupāda: "Mine. My Kṛṣṇa." Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa is mine. Kṛṣṇa is mine, and I am Kṛṣṇa's." That is our actual position. Bob: We are part of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, because everything is generated by the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And everything is energy of Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . tomorrow fasting. Yes. Bob: Tomorrow's fasting? Acyutānanda: Tomorrow we fast. Up until evening. Prabhupāda: Up to evening. Acyutānanda: Until the moon comes. Then we take ekādaśī or feast? Prabhupāda: You can feast. Acyutānanda: Feast. So we'll fast up until the rising of the moon and then take feast, full prasādam . (break) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes it happens that one day out of the week all the other . . . all the shops close except for one. I've experienced in India that all the . . . (break) Bob: . . . the people coming and jumping on each other trying to get . . . afraid that the prasādam would finish before they got served. Prabhupāda: No, assure them that we can . . . "Don't be jumping. We shall supply you." What can be done? (break) . . . the place where we shall perform sacrifice, fire sacrifice, the tablet should be taken there and we shall worship. And then we place it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll carry the tablet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . to the sacrifice place. Prabhupāda: We shall place the in . . . what is called, paraphernalia? And then begin. So ten feet deep and six feet wide. So you have ordered for bricks and cement? (loudspeaker in background) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was speaking with Mr. Sanyal, and he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Sanyal he also agreed that by having a man come here and make the bricks here, we can save fifty percent. Prabhupāda: So try to find out. (break) Devotee: . . . think that acquiring the land, and the other . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Then you can talk. (break) (a devotee is speaking in Bengali over the loudspeaker and Prabhupāda mimics him) (laughter) Devotee: Mahāṁsa. Prabhupāda: Mahāṁsa? Who is speaking? Mahāṁsa speaking or . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Bob: For now? Is it just for now? Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have one question. What is the purpose of service minus devotion? Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is not service, that is business. (laughter) Just like we have employed some contractor. That is not service; that is business. Is it not? Indian man: Certainly. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like sometimes they advertise, "Our customers are our master." Is it not? Sometimes advertise. So this is business, but it is a flowery language only that, "Our customers are our masters." Because nobody is a qualified customer unless he pays. Hmm? *But service is not like that. Service, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām (CC Antya 20.47): "Oh, You do whatever You like; still, You are my worshipable Lord." That is service. "I don't ask any return from You." That is service. When you expect some return, that is business. Devotee: Money. (pause) Prabhupāda: Very nice road. (break) Bob: I wish to ask you to advise me on how I can come to feel closer to God. I'll be leaving you soon, and I'm . . . with you . . . Prabhupāda: You have to purify. Bob: Somewhat. But let me say I come to the temple at times and then I leave, and I'm not sure how much I take with me. Prabhupāda: It will not take much time. Within six months you'll realize. But we have to follow the regulative principle. Then it will be all right. Just like these boys and girls are doing. Just see the girl, how she's chanting always. All our girls is . . . Bob: Yeah, I've seen. *Prabhupāda: They have no tendency for going to cinema or going to hotel. No. Everything all stopped. Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ. Anartha means unnecessary things, all rubbish. Bob: I feel that when I go back, though . . . Prabhupāda: The whole human life is meant for purifying. Śuddhyed sattva. Sattva means existence. So if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to change your body, from this body to that. Sometimes it may be higher, sometimes lower. Just like if you don't cure your disease, it can take turn in so many ways to put you into trouble. Similarly, if you don't purify your existence, then you'll have to transmigrate from one body to another. And there is no guarantee what kind of body you'll get. *Very subtle laws of nature. Now there is no guarantee that you will get a very comfortable body or American body. No. Therefore, for human being it is essential that he should purify his existence. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma*-saukhyaṁ anantam (SB 5.5.1). Unless you purify your existence, your hankering after happiness, you cannot get continued happiness. That is not possible. Bob: When I go, I go back to my job in New York, I hope I'll become purer, but I'm sure that I won't become as pure as your devotees here. I don't see myself doing that. Prabhupāda: You can do as they are doing. They were not pure in the beginning. Now they are pure. Similarly, you can become pure. Just like in your childhood age you were not educated; now you are educated. Bob: So what are the things that I may do? See, if when I go back I must . . . Prabhupāda: Where you go back? Bob: I'll be going back to Chaibasa, Bihar, and to my work there. Prabhupāda: What is there in Chaibasa? Bob: That's where I do my teaching. I live there with . . . Prabhupāda: So better do not teach. Because you do not know what to teach. Bob: I have . . . I'm actually, I'll be going . . . I don't like this so much, and I'll be returning to America in May. But while I'm here, this is my agreement to staying in India, that I . . . Prabhupāda: (referring to microphone) It will not stay. No, if you are serious, you can keep yourself pure anywhere. It doesn't matter whether you stay in America or India. But you must know how to keep yourself purified. That's all. Bob: You mean by following these principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I went to America. So either in America or in India, I am the same man. Bob: I have tried somewhat to follow since I met you the first time. Prabhupāda: That follow . . . you must strictly follow if you are serious. Bob: Maybe . . . okay, maybe what I say now is the most foolish of all I've said, but let me tell you how I feel. Prabhupāda: No, no, not foolish. I don't say foolish, but imperfect. Bob: Okay, imperfect. But let me tell you. I feel that right now I admire and respect your devotees, but I don't feel as if I'm part of them or even a great desire to be part of them. I feel that I just want to do what is right and come closer to God, and if I just go to a better life next time, I'd be satisfied. Prabhupāda: Very good life. Bob: Maybe that's just material clinging. Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu . But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. *Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma*-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam , "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many . . . so now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt . . . Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existentional body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body, there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not? Bob: Put the iron rod into fire . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become fire. Bob: Yes . . . Prabhupāda: Although iron rod. Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, this body, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, it will act as spiritual, although it is material body. The same example: iron rod, when it is red hot, it is not longer iron rod, although it is iron rod. You can catch it as iron rod, but touch anywhere, it will burn. It has got the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you become spiritualized. You'll act spiritually. No more material demands. Bob: How do I do this? Prabhupāda: This process, as they are doing. You have seen. These boys are, our six boys, they are now initiated today. It is very simple. You have to follow the four restrictive regulations and chant this beads. Very easy. Bob: Well, um, but . . . see, when I'm back in Bihar and following my lifestyle there, I . . . if I follow all these regulative principles . . . some I follow now, but not all. But if I follow all . . . Prabhupāda: "Some" means? Bob: Some . . . Prabhupāda: There are only four regulative principles. "Some" means three, or two? Bob: Two or three. Prabhupāda: So why not other one? Bob: No, no, I mean I follow one or two now. One or two now I follow. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why not the other three? What is the difficulty? Bob: Erm . . . Prabhupāda: Which one you follow? Bob: Which one I follow? I am almost vegetarian, but I eat eggs. Prabhupāda: That is also not fully. (laughs) Bob: No, not even fully. But since last time I've become vegetarian, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Vegetarian is no qualification. Bob: Not much. Prabhupāda: You see, vegetarian, the pigeon, pigeon is vegetarian. The monkey is vegetarian, but most rubbish creature. Bob: Well . . . Prabhupāda: A monkey is vegetarian, naked sannyāsī , lives in the forest—the most mischievous. Bob: I felt that it was a little bit of progress, because it was somewhat difficult at first, then easy, and I had returned to . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can stick to all regulative principles, provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Otherwise it is not possible. Bob: Yeah, but this is it. I have . . . when I'm back in Bihar and my friends may say . . . well, we're sitting in the evening, and there's nothing to do but fight mosquitoes, and they'll say: "How about smoking some marijuana?" And I say: "Sure, there's nothing else to do," and then I sit down and I enjoy myself for the evening. Now, we did this . . . we got carried away. We were doing it every day and realized we were hurting ourselves and stopped, but still, on occasion we do that . . . *Prabhupāda: You have to live with us. Then your friends will not ask you, "What about marijuana?" (Bob laughs) Keep the association of devotees. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya*-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-ras . . . (SB 3.25.25). We are opening centers to give chance people to associate with us. Why we have taken so much land? Providing for those who are seriously desirous. They will come and live with us. Association is very influential. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ (BG 2.62). If you associate with drunkards, you become a drunkard. If you associate with sādhu , then you become sādhu . Śyāmasundara: He can come and stay with you in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He could come and stay in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can stay with us in Bombay. But here he wants friend, marijuana. That is the difficulty. Bob: Um, let me ask you about something else. Then maybe I'll come back to this, because I'm still . . . I find that I think of myself too much, and this way you can't think of God so much. One can't think of God. I think of myself in too many places. How can I forget about myself so I can concentrate on other more important things? Prabhupāda: As they have done. Bob: (laughs) You are saying to me that my path . . . I think what you're saying is my path to purity is to become a devotee. Prabhupāda: Do you hesitate? Bob: Well, I . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very difficult to become a devotee? Bob: For myself . . . it is . . . I don't feel so much the desire. I have . . . first the devotees tell me that they have given up material life. These four regulative principles, they have explained to me, means giving up material life, and that I see. And in place of this they have . . . Prabhupāda: What do you mean by material life? I am sitting on this bed. Is it material or spiritual? Bob: Material. Prabhupāda: Then how we give up material life? Bob: I think how I interpreted it was a desire for material gains. Prabhupāda: That is material life. Bob: You're working towards material gains, not giving up all material. Prabhupāda: Material life means when you desire to gratify your senses. That is material life. And when you desire to serve God, that is spiritual life. That is the difference between material life and spiritual life. Now we are trying to serve our senses. Instead of serving the senses, when we serve God, that is spiritual life. What is the difference between our activities and others' activities? We are using everything: table, chair, bed, this tape recorder, typewriter. So what is the difference? The difference is that we are using everything for Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Ah . . . this I see. The devotees have said that the sensual pleasures that they have given up are replaced with spiritual kinds of pleasures. But see, I haven't . . . Prabhupāda: Spiritual kinds of pleasure means when you desire to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Just like example, a mother is more pleased by feeding her son. (break) Bob: Spiritual pleasure, then, is in pleasing God. Prabhupāda: Spiritual pleasure means pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: Pleasing of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. And material pleasure means pleasure of senses. That's all. This is the difference. When you try simply to please Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual pleasure. Bob: I had viewed this as . . . my thought of pleasing God was to do . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, don't manufacture your ways of pleasing God. Don't manufacture. Suppose if I want to please you, then I shall ask you, "How can I serve you?" Not that I manufacture service. That is not pleasing you. Suppose if I want a glass of water. And if you manufacture that, "Swāmījī will be more pleased if I give a glass of milk, hot milk," that will not please me. If you want to please me, then you should ask me, "How can I please you?" And what I order, if you do that, that will please me. Bob: And pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is . . . pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then, is being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The devotee means who is always pleasing Kṛṣṇa. He has no other business. That is devotee. Bob: And, can you tell me some more about chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I have for quite some time chanted, but never regularly, just a little bit here and there. I just got beads very recently. And once in a while I feel comfortable chanting, and once in a while not comfortable at all. And maybe I don't chant properly. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has got process. You have to adopt the process. Bob: The devotees tell me of the ecstasy they feel when chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is when . . . more you become purified, you feel ecstasy. But this chanting process is purifying process. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this afternoon we were discussing about austerities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: About austerities. If you don't practice voluntarily austerities, then you must involuntarily practice some austerities. Prabhupāda: Yes, under the direction of spiritual master. You have no mind to follow austerities, but when you accept a spiritual master you have to carry out the order. That is austerity. Śyāmasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to. Prabhupāda: No, because . . . you have got . . . you have surrendered to a spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don't like, you have to do it, to please me. Even you don't like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says: "Today is fasting," so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (loudspeaker in background) Śyāmasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don't want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they're forced to austerities. Prabhupāda: That is forced austerity, that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . if you don't undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity, but man can accept austerity. (break) That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner's shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money, so he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore animal cannot undergo austerity. (indistinct discussion about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. Aiye, aiye, aiye . (break) Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and Kṛṣṇa sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That's all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities, chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? . . . (indistinct) . . . I see austerity—call my mother. Bob: What is that? *Prabhupāda: Suppose we have this nice foodstuff this mother has brought. So those who are not following austerities, they cannot expect. But because we are following austerity, Kṛṣṇa sends us nice thing. So we are not loser. When you become Kṛṣṇa*-ized, then you'll get more comfort than at the present moment. That's a fact. Bob: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am living alone for the last twenty years, but I have no difficulty. When, before taking sannyāsa , I was living in Delhi, these boys were taking care of me. Yes. So I had no difficulty, although I was living alone. Śyāmasundara: If you don't accept a spiritual discipline, then nature forces so many . . . *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Māyā is imposing so many difficulties, but as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, no more imposition. Śyāmasundara: We are so foolish that we are always thinking, "In the future I'll be happy." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is māyā , illusion. That is a ass. You sit down on the back of the ass and just take a morsel of grass, he'll go. The ass is thinking, "Let me go forward little, and I shall get the ass, er, grass." But it is . . . one feet distant it always remains. That is ass*-ism. (laughter) That is not . . . everyone is thinking, "Let me go a little forward, and I'll get it." (break) . . . get it, be very happy. (break) Bob: I, I thank you so much for . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm? (break) Don't talk l*-e-a-v-e, but talk l-i-v-e. Bob: I, I, I cannot yet, but I was thinking now of returning tomorrow to my town. But . . . Prabhupāda: Don't return. Bob: I should stay tomorrow, here. Prabhupāda: Stay here. Bob: You tell me to, I'll stay. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're a very good boy. Bob: Okay. Thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: It is very simple. The living entities, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, they are in this material world. "Kṛṣṇa" means His name, His form, His abode, His pastimes, everything. Bob: What was that last? Prabhupāda: Pastimes. Bob: Pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you speak of king, it means king's government, king's palace, king's queen, king's son, secretaries, military strength, everything. Is it not? Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Kṛṣṇa, means all energies of Kṛṣṇa. That is complete by saying "Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa." Rādhā represents all the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, the living entities are also included, because the living entities are energies, different energy of Kṛṣṇa—superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that means material existence. The whole world is not serving Kṛṣṇa. They are serving Kṛṣṇa in a different way. They are serving Kṛṣṇa indirectly. Just like disobedient citizens, they serve the government indirectly. They have come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So in the prison house they're forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly, all the living entities here, they're godless. Either by ignorance or by his will, he doesn't like to accept the supremacy of God. Demonic. So we are trying to bring them in their original condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. (break) Bob: I'd like to ask you just something I talked with devotees about, just medicine. I went to go . . . I walked to the river with some devotees today. I have a cold, so I said I shouldn't go in the water. Some felt I should, because it is the Ganges, and some said I shouldn't because I have a cold. And we were talking, and I don't understand. Some . . . devotees . . . do we get sick because of our bad actions in the past? Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Bob: But when one is . . . Prabhupāda: Any kind of distress we suffer, it is due to our impious activities in the past. Bob: But when one is removed from karmic influence . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Bob: . . . does he still get sick? Prabhupāda: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force. What is called physically, this . . .? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Momentum. Prabhupāda: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a devotee who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, even he's found that he's suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Bob: But what about a perfected soul, a devotee, a pure devotee? *Prabhupāda: Perfected soul means twenty*-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfection. Transcendental position. Perfection means to be engaged in his original consciousness. That is perfection. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , "Anyone who comes to Me, that is the . . ." Saṁsiddhiḥ labhate param. Saṁsiddhi . Perfection, complete perfection. Saṁsiddhi. Siddhi and saṁsiddhi . Siddhi is perfection. That is Brahman realization. And saṁsiddhi means devotion, after Brahman realization. Bob: Could you just say that last thing again, please? Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi . Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sam means complete. Bob: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And siddhi means perfection. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated that one who goes back to home, back to Godhead, he has attained the complete perfection. So perfection means when one realizes that he's not this body, he's spirit soul. Brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). That is called Brahman realization. That is perfection. And saṁsiddhi means after Brahman realization, when one is engaged in devotional service. Therefore one who is already engaged in devotional service, it is to be understood that Brahman realization is there. Therefore it is called saṁsiddhi . Bob: I, I, I ask you this very humbly, but do you feel diseases and sickness? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Do you personally feel disease and sickness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is this a result of your past karma ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: This is a result of your past karma ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: So one in this material world never escapes his karma completely? Prabhupāda: Yes, escapes. No more karma . For a devotee, no more karma reaction. Bob: But you must be the best devotee, and you . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. No, I don't consider I am the best devotee. I am the lowest. Bob: No! No! Prabhupāda: You are the best devotee. Bob: (laughter) Oh, no! But lets see, you say, what you say . . . it always, always seems right. Prabhupāda: Yes, but . . . Bob: So then you must be the best devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes, the thing is that even the best devotee, when he preaches, he comes to the second*-class devotee. Bob: What would the best devotee be doing? Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach. Bob: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sees there is no need of preaching; everyone is devotee. (Bob laughs) Yes. He sees no more nondevotee, all devotee. *Yaśodānandana: Uttama*-adhikārī ? *Prabhupāda: Uttama*-adhikārī . But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī: She does not see anyone nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī. Bob: Who is this? Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī, Kṛṣṇa's consort. Bob: Ah. Prabhupāda: Anyone approaches Rādhārāṇī, She recommends to Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the best devotee. He's better than me." And Kṛṣṇa cannot refuse. That is best devotee. But it is not to be imitated, "I have become best devotee. Therefore I have stopped." That is . . . actually, that is a different stage. So even the best devotee . . . *Without (being) best devotee, he cannot preach actually, ācārya , but he comes to the second stage. Īśvare tad*-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca (SB 11.2.46). He . . . he has the vision of dviṣat , somebody envious of God. But it is not the vision of the best devotee. Best devotee sees, "Nobody is envious to God. Everyone is better than me." Just like Caitanya-caritāmṛta author, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, he says that "I am lowest than the worm in the stool." Bob: Who was saying this? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . the author of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja. Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha (CC Adi 5.205). He's not making a show; he's feeling like that, that "I am the lowest. Everyone is best, I am the lowest. Everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service; I am not engaged." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "Oh, I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa. I cry to make a show. If I would have been a devotee of Kṛṣṇa I would have died long ago. I am living, that is the proof that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." That is the vision of the best devotee. He's so much absorbed in Kṛṣṇa's love that he sees, "Everything is going on; simply I am the lowest, therefore I cannot see God." That is best devotee. Bob: So then a devotee must work for everybody's liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. A devotee must work under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Not imitate the best devotee. Bob: Not . . . what is that word? Prabhupāda: Imitate. Devotees: Imitate, imitate. Bob: Oh, ācchā, ācchā , I see. Imitate. (pause) (break) Śyāmasundara: . . . you said that sometimes you feel pain, some sickness, due to the sinful activities of your devotees. Is that . . . couldn't sometimes disease be that, due to that, caused by that? *Prabhupāda: You see, Kṛṣṇa says that ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So Kṛṣṇa's so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not the easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he's not Kṛṣṇa, so sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu forbidden that "Don't make many śiṣyas , many disciples." But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we suffer. But that's a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many disciple is a risky job unless he's able to assimilate all the sins. (pause) *(break) . . . patitānāṁ pāvanebhyo (Śrī Vaiṣṇava Praṇāma). He takes responsibility for all the fallen souls. That is . . . that idea is in Bible. Just like Jesus Christ take all the sinful reaction of all people and sacrificed his life. That is the responsibility of spiritual master. Because he's Kṛṣṇa's representative, so Kṛṣṇa takes all responsibility. Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, apāpa*-viddham . He cannot be attacked by any sinful reaction. But a living entity may be subjected sometimes, because he's small. Big fire, small fire. On a small fire if you put some big things, (chuckling) then the fire itself may be extinguished. In the big fire, whatever you put, that's all right. Finished. The big fire can consume anything. Bob: So Christ's suffering was of that nature? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bob: Was Christ's suffering this . . . Prabhupāda: That I have already explained, that he took the sinful reaction of all the people, therefore he suffered. Bob: I see. Prabhupāda: He said . . . that is the Bible, that he has taken all the sinful reactions of the people and he sacrificed his life. But these Christian people, they have made it a law that, "Christ will suffer and we shall do all nonsense." Such great fools they are. They are . . . "Let Jesus Christ make contract for taking all our sinful reaction, and we will go on with all nonsense." That is their religion. This . . . they are not in sense that, "Christ is so magnanimous that he took all our sins, and he has suffered. We stop all these sins!" They have not come to that sense. They have taking it very easily: "Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we do all nonsense." Is it not? Bob: Yes. It is so. Prabhupāda: Yes. They should have been ashamed that, "Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us. Instead of . . . we are continuing the sinful activities still. He asked everyone, 'Thou shall not kill,' and we are indulging in killing." And "Lord Jesus Christ will excuse us, take all the sinful reaction." This is going on. (break) . . . should be very much cautious that, "For my sinful actions my spiritual master will suffer. So I'll not commit a pinch of sinful action." That is duty of the disciple. After initiation, his all sinful reaction is finished. Now if he again commits sinful activities, the spiritual master has to suffer. They should be sympathetic for this that, "For my sinful activities my spiritual master will suffer." (break) . . . attacked with some disease, it is due to the sinful activities of the disciples. Exactly like Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on account of the sinful activities of others. (break) . . . forbidden, "Don't make many disciples." But we do, because we are preaching. "Never mind, let us suffer; still, we shall accept." (break) . . . question was that when I suffer it is due to my past misdeeds? Was it not? Bob: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is my misdeed, that I accept a disciple who is nonsense. That is my misdeed. Bob: This happens on occasion? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is sure to happen, because we are accepting so many men. But it is the duty of the disciple to be cautious that, "My spiritual master saved me. I may not put him again into these suffering." (break) When the spiritual master is in suffering, Kṛṣṇa saves him. Kṛṣṇa thinks, "Oh, he has taken so much responsibility for delivering a fallen person." So Kṛṣṇa is there. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Kṛṣṇa. Bob: So your suffering is not the same kind of pain that an impure person . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not due to karma . (break) The pain is there sometimes so that the disciples may know that "Due to our sinful activities my spiritual master is suffering." (break) Bob: . . . very well now. Prabhupāda: I'm always well. (break) . . . well in this sense: even there is suffering, I know Kṛṣṇa will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities. (break) Bob: But let us say, when I . . . in the town I live in I drink boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water? If I have been good enough not to get a disease, then I may drink any water. And if I have been not doing proper, then I shall get diseased . . . Prabhupāda: So boiled water is any water also. Boiled water is included within any water. Bob: But, you see, I drink that to prevent disease. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you are in the material world, what is physical law, you cannot neglect that. Just like if you go to a jungle, there is tiger. It is known that it will attack you. Why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long he has got some physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: "Oh, I have become a devotee. I challenge everything." That is foolishness. Anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ (Brs. 1.2.255). *Viṣaya, this physical necessities, the devotee is advised to accept the necessities of life without any attachment. Physical law is take the boiled water. But if boiled water is not available, does it mean he'll not drink water? If it is not available, you drink ordinary water. (break) We take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam . But while in touring, in hotels, sometimes we have to take some food in the hotel. Does it mean, "Oh, I do not take any foodstuff from the hotel. I shall starve"? If I starve, then I'll be weak, I cannot preach. (break) Bob: Does a devotee lose some of his individuality, in that . . . Prabhupāda: No, he has got full individuality, but he sacrifices individuality for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." So he voluntarily surrenders. Not that he has lost his individuality. He keeps his individuality fully. But because Kṛṣṇa desires that he should surrender, he never minds. He's individual. Just like Arjuna, he was . . . in the beginning he was declining to fight on account of his individuality. But when he accepted Kṛṣṇa as his spiritual master, he became śiṣya . Then whatever He ordered, "Yes." That doesn't mean he lost his individuality. He voluntarily accepted, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, I shall do it." Just as all my disciples, they have not lost their individuality, but they have surrendered their individuality. That is required. Just like if a man does not use sex, does that mean he has become impotent? If he likes he can have thousand times sex life, but he has voluntarily avoided it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Surprise Sometimes we fast. That does not mean we are diseased. We voluntarily fast. It does not mean that I am not hungry, I cannot eat. But we voluntarily fast. Bob: Does the devotee who surrenders keep his individual . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in full. Bob: . . . taste for different things? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bob: Does he keep his individual likes and dislikes? *Prabhupāda: Yes, everything he keeps, but he gives preference to Kṛṣṇa. Suppose I like this thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "No. You cannot use it." Then they are sacrificed. It is for Kṛṣṇa's sake. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe . Bob: Let us say a devotee has a liking for one food over another food. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if Kṛṣṇa does not like it, he won't take. Bob: And how does he know which food Kṛṣṇa likes him to take? Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra . You have to know from Kṛṣṇa. When you . . . just like what kind of behavior government likes, how do you know it? From the law books. Is it not? Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa likes and not likes, you get from the śāstra . You cannot manufacture the like and disliking of Kṛṣṇa. That is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). *He says definitely. Positively He says that, "I like these things." So we have to offer to Kṛṣṇa what He likes, and then we take prasādam . Kṛṣṇa likes Rādhārāṇī. Therefore all the gopīs, they're trying to push Rādhārāṇī to Kṛṣṇa. Nikuñja*-yūno rati-keli-siddhyai yā yālibhir yuktir apekṣaṇīyā . That is expert. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this gopī . All right, push her." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, not satisfy my senses. That is bhakti . That is called prema , love for Kṛṣṇa. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa likes this. I must give Him this." Bob: There is . . . some prasādam is offered, and then we go and eat, and different prasādas are served. And some I like, and some I find the taste not at all to my liking and do not eat. Prabhupāda: You should not do that. The perfection is whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, you should accept everything. You cannot make, "I like this. I do not like this." That is perfection. So long you make such discrimination, that means you have not appreciated what is prasāda . (pause) Devotee: What if there is someone . . . this . . . (static) . . . likes and dislikes. Say, someone is preparing some prasādam . . . Prabhupāda: No dislikings, no liking. Whatever Kṛṣṇa likes, that's all right. Devotee: Yes. But say someone prepares something, like some prasādam for Kṛṣṇa, but he does not make it so good, and it is . . . Prabhupāda: No, if you have made sincerely with devotion, then Kṛṣṇa will like it. Just like Vidura. Vidura was feeding Kṛṣṇa banana. So he was so absorbed in thought, he was, I mean to say, throwing away the real banana and he was giving Him the skin, and Kṛṣṇa was eating. (laughter) Because He knows that, "He's giving Me in the devotion." So Kṛṣṇa can eat anything, provided there is devotion, real devotion. It does not matter whether it is materially tasteful or not. Similarly, a devotee also take Kṛṣṇa prasādam . Whether it is materially tasteful or not, he should accept everything. Devotee: But if the devotion is not there . . . like in India . . . Prabhupāda: Devotion is not there, He does not like any food, either is tasteful or not tasteful. He does not accept it. Devotee: In India, somebody said . . . Prabhupāda: No India, of India, don't talk of India. Talk of the philosophy. If there is no devotion, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything, either in India or in your country. It is not . . . Kṛṣṇa's not obliged to accept anything costly because it is very tasteful. Kṛṣṇa has many tasteful dishes in Vaikuṇṭha. He's not hankering after your food. He accepts your devotion, that out of . . . bhaktyā, tad aham aśnāmi. Bhaktyā upahṛtam , real thing is devotion, not the food. Kṛṣṇa does not accept any food of this material world, but He accepts only the devotion. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhaktyā upahṛtam (BG 9.26): "Because it has been offered to Me with devotional love." That is required. One who has no devotional love, from his hand . . . therefore we do not allow anyone to cook who is not a devotee. Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from the hands of a nondevotee. Why should He accept? He's not hungry. He does not require any food. He accepts only the devotion, that's all. That is the main point. So one has to become a devotee, not a good cooker. But if he's a devotee, then he'll be a good cook also. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). Automatically he'll become a good cook. Therefore one has to become devotee only; *then all other good qualification will automatically be there. And if he's a nondevotee, any good qualification has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He's on the mental plane, so he has no good qualification. (break) The time? Śyāmasundara: Six o'clock. We leave in twenty minutes. *Devotee: Six*-thirty. (break) Prabhupāda: It is . . . question and answer, it is required. It is beneficial to all the . . . Bob: I still have a question on the prasāda . *Prabhupāda: Sūta Gosvāmī says, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka*-maṅgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ. Kṛṣṇa-sampraśnaḥ is very good. When you discuss and hear, that is loka-maṅgalam , either by the question or by the answer. (break) Bob: I still have . . . do not understand so much about what you're telling me about the prasādam . But if you like, I'll think about it and ask, ask you again tomorrow. About prasādam . Prabhupāda: Prasādam is always prasādam . So because we are not elevated sufficiently, therefore we do not like some prasādam . Bob: I found, specifically what I mean, is some was too spicy and hurt my stomach. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is also due to not appreciating. But Kṛṣṇa should be . . . the cook should have consideration that Kṛṣṇa must be offered first*-class foodstuff. So if he offers something last class, that is not his duty. But Kṛṣṇa can accept anything if it is offered by a devotee, and a devotee also can accept any prasādam , even it is spicy. (break) Hiraṇyakaśipu gave his son poison, and he drunk it nectarean. So for the devotee, even it is spicy to other taste, it is very palatable to the devotee. What is the question of spicy? He was offered poison, real poison. And Pūtanā Rākṣasī, she also offered Kṛṣṇa poison, but Kṛṣṇa's so nice that, "She took Me as My mother." So He took the poison and delivered her. Kṛṣṇa does not take the bad side. Any good man, he does not take the bad side, he takes only the good side. (break) He wanted to make business with my Guru Mahārāja. But he did not take the bad side. He took the good side that, "He has come forward to give me some service." So whatever he wanted, he gave him. Bob: Business with your . . . what was that? Business with who? Prabhupāda: That is, I am talking about my Guru Mahārāja. Bob: Oh, oh, I see. (break) . . . question on prasādam , if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasādam ? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything? Bob: Ohhh. Prabhupāda: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. (break) . . . point? Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: A perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. But if I am not a perfect devotee—I have got discrimination—why shall I imitate a perfect devotee? That will not be possible to assimilate, digest. Because I am not a perfect devotee. These things are . . . because a devotee should not be a foolish man. It is said that kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura . So a devotee knows his position, and he's intelligent enough to deal with others accordingly. (break) . . . it is posted? (break) (end) Conversation 3 with Bob Cohen -- February 29, 1972, Mayapur Bob: . . . does one earn good karma ? *Prabhupāda: Good karma means what are prescribed in the Vedas . The . . . specifically, it is prescribed that one should perform yajña. Yajña means to act for satisfaction of Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said . . . (aside) So shall I stop the fan? I think you can stop. You got? Otherwise much mosquitoes may disturb. Bob: I have a sweater here, if you like. 01:05 (EW ) *Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajñas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajña is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law*-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma , and therefore they are suffering. They are blind men and leading some other blind men. And both of them are expanding the path to hell by bad karma . Bad karma , you suffer. That is very easy to understand. If you do something criminal, you'll suffer. If you do something benevolent for the state, for the people, then you are rewarded, you are recognized, you are given title. Sometimes shot. This is good and bad karma . So . . . (microphone sound) . . . some material happiness, and bad karma means you suffer from material distress. By good karma you get birth in good family, janma . You get riches, good money. Then you become learned scholar, you become beautiful also. (aside) Sit down. There is some trouble with your leg? What is that? Devotee: There is an infection in this ankle. Prabhupāda: Ankle? Oh, there was some . . . (break) Bob: . . . who is not very aware of God, but . . . Prabhupāda: Then he's an animal. The animal does not know what is God. A person who does not know what is God or one who does not try to understand what is God, he's animal. The animals are with four legs, and that animal is with two legs. And Darwin's theory is they are monkeys. So anyone who does not know God or does not try to understand God, he's nothing but animal. Bob: What about the people in the . . . the innocent people? Prabhupāda: The animal is very innocent. You cut it's throat, it won't protest. So innocent is not very good qualification. The animals are all innocent. Therefore you get the chance of cutting their throat. So just . . . to become innocent is not a very good qualification. Our our proposition is one must be very, very intelligent, and then he can understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje se baḍa catura . So to become innocent, ignorant, simpleton is not very good qualification. Simplicity is all right, but one should not be unintelligent. Bob: Can you tell me again what intelligence is? Prabhupāda: Intelligence means one who knows what he is, what is this world, what is God, what is the interrelation—he's intelligent. If he does not know what he is . . . the animal does not know what he is. He thinks that he's body. Similarly, any man who does not know what he is, he's not intelligent. Bob: What about a person who does . . . tries to do what is right and is very conscientious instead of being unconscientious about the things he does? Like the servant who is very honest to his master, but if he was not honest he knows he would not be caught, but he stays honest anyway. A person like that. Is that some kind of good karma ? *Prabhupāda: Yes, to become honest is also good karma . The how to become good man, they're described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: daivī sampad and asurī sampad . These are very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gītā . So if you become qualified with the daivī sampad , then daivī sampad vimokṣāya ( BG 16.5), then you'll be liberated. And nibandhāyāsurī matā : and if you are qualified with the demonic qualification, then you'll be more and more entangled. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is liberation and what is entanglement. They're so much ignorant. They do not know. Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean by liberation?" can you answer? And if I ask you, "What do you mean by entanglement?" can you answer? These words are there in the Vedic literature: liberation and entanglement. But at the present moment they do not know even what is liberation, what is entanglement. They're so ignorant and foolish, and still, they're proud of their advancement in knowledge. Can you answer what is liberation? You are a professor, teacher, but if I ask you, can you explain what is liberation? Bob: Umm . . . not adequately, because if I could explain, then I would be becoming liberated very fast. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is liberation, then how fast and slow liberation? (chuckles) There is no question of liberation. It is not . . . neither fast nor slow. You first know what is liberation. If you do not know where the train is going, then what is the use of asking, understanding fast and slow? You do not know your destination. What is liberation? Bob: Umm . . . Prabhupāda: I am asking. You daily ask me; I am asking you today. Bob: Okay, yes. (laughs) I'll think for a moment. Śyāmasundara: Shall I turn this off, this fan? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It's cool now. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, he'll do. Where is Nanda*-kumāra? He can do. (break) . . . is described in the Bhagavad-gītā , er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . The exact Sanskrit word for liberation is called mukti . So that mukti is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6): one should stop doing all nonsense, and he must be situated in his original position. But this is also more embarrassing, because nobody knows what is his original position and how to act properly. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpam . People are generally acting differently. But they do not know what is differently and what is properly. So much ignorant are the modern population about their life. It is very, very awkward position. They do not know. (break) Bob: . . . who is honest? Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is honesty. How he can be honest? If you know what is honesty, then you can become honest. But you do not know what is honesty. What is honesty? First of all explain. Bob: Honesty is doing what you really feel is right. Prabhupāda: Then a thief is feeling that "I must steal to provide my children. It is right." Does it mean that he's honest? Everyone thinks. The butcher, he thinks, "It is my life. I must cut throat of the animals daily." Just like that, what is that, vyādha, vyādha . . . when Nārada Muni met him? Śyāmasundara: Oh, Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes, Mṛgāri. "Why you are killing in this way?" "Oh, it is my business. My father taught it." So he was honestly doing that. So feeling of honesty depends on different culture. A thief's culture is different. He thinks stealing is honesty. Bob: So what is honesty? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my question. (laughter) Real honesty is that you should not encroach upon others' property. This is honesty. Just like this is my table. If you want to take it away while going, is that honesty? No. So therefore the simple definition of honesty is that you should not encroach upon others' right. That is honesty. Bob: So somebody who is honest will be in the mode of goodness. Would that be correct? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Because mode of goodness means knowledge. So if you know, if you're well conversant that "This table does not belong to me; it belongs to Swāmījī," so you'll not try to take it away. Therefore one must know, be thoroughly well conversant—then he can be honest. Bob: So . . . now, you had said the mode of goodness was knowledge of God, but somebody may be honest without having very much knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bob: You know, without being honest, without thinking they're honest because it is God's wishes, they just feel like they ought to be honest. Prabhupāda: No. God wishes everyone should be honest. Why God should think otherwise? Bob: So you may follow God's wishes without knowing you are following God's wishes. Like somebody may be in the mode of . . . Prabhupāda: No. Without knowing following, that is absurd. Without knowing following, that is absurd. You must know that, "This is the I mean to . . . order of God." And if you follow that, then that is honesty. Bob: But somebody would not be honest without knowing God? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God is the supreme proprietor. Huh? See . . . God is the supreme proprietor and He's the supreme enjoyer and He's the supreme friend. That is the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If anyone knows these three things, then he is in full knowledge. These three things only—that God is the proprietor of everything, God is friend of everyone and God is the enjoyer of everything. Just like the same example, in your body . . . everyone knows in the body the stomach is the enjoyer—not the hands, legs, eyes, ears. They are simply to help the stomach. Eyes . . . the vulture goes seven miles up to see where is food for the stomach. Is it not? Bob: That's so. Prabhupāda: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Kṛṣṇa, God. He's the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer, or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body, they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not? Bob: It is so. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere . . . He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. *But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yahya Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he'll not accept. He'll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things. And that is the cause of our trouble. But Bhagavad*-gītā , in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said: But we won't take this. We shall put forward so many false proprietor, false friends, false enjoyer, and they will fight one another. This is the situation of the world. If this education is given and people takes this knowledge, there is peace, śāntim ṛcchati . Immediately there is peace. This is knowledge. And if anyone follows this principle, he's honest. He does not claim, "It is mine." He everything knows it is Kṛṣṇa's, so therefore everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. That is honesty. If this pencil belongs to me, the etiquette is . . . just like my students sometimes do: "Can I use this pencil?" "Yes." This is etiquette. I say: "Yes, you can." Similarly, if I know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, without His permission I'll not use. That is honesty. And that is knowledge. *And one does not know, he's ignorant, he's foolish, and foolish man commits all criminality. All criminals, they're foolish men. Out of ignorance one commits law*-breaking. So ignorance is not bliss, but it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the difficulty, our. The whole world is enjoying ignorance, and when we say about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they do not very much appreciate. If I say: "Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, you are not proprietor," he'll not be very much satisfied. (laughs) Just see, ignorance is bliss. So it is my foolishness to say the real truth. Therefore this is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." So we are taking the risk to offend people because they'll think we are fools. If I say: "Birla, Mr. Birla, you are not proprietor, Kṛṣṇa is proprietor. So whatever money you have got, spend for Kṛṣṇa," he'll be angry. Mūrkha upadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). If you instruct a rascal, he'll be angry. Therefore we go as beggar: "My dear Mr. Birla, you are very rich man. I am sannyāsī , beggar. So I want to construct a temple. If you spare some money?" So he'll be, "Oh, here is a beggar. Give him some money." You see? (laughter) But if I say: "Mr. Birla, you have got millions of dollars at your disposal. That is Kṛṣṇa's money. Give it to me; I am Kṛṣṇa's servant." Oh, he will . . . (laughter) he'll not be very satisfied. Rather, if I go as a beggar, he would give something, and if I tell him the truth, he'll not give me a farthing. Therefore we take this beggar's dress. We are not beggar. We cheat him as beggar. We are not beggar. We are Kṛṣṇa's servant, we are not beggar. We don't want anything from anyone, because we know Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. Bob: Ahh. *Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Just like a child sometimes takes something important. He'll not spare it. So we have to flatter, "Oh, you are so nice, please take these lozenges and give me that paper, hundred rupees. It is nothing. It is paper." (laughter) And he will, "Oh, yes, take. That's nice. That two*-paisa lozenges is very nice. It is sweet." So we have to do like that. Why? Because he'll go to hell taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Bob: And then he may not go to hell. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You save him from going to hell. Because a farthing spent for Kṛṣṇa, it will be accounted, "Oh, this man has given a farthing." This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti. Ajñāta-sukṛti means knowing pious activities er . . . doing pious activities without knowledge. So we give everyone chance to do, act very piously, without his knowledge. *This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mahad*-vicalanaṁ nṟṇāṁ gṛhīṇāṁ dīna-cetasām (SB 10.8.4). Dīna-cetasām . They're very poor in their thought. Therefore the saintly persons move just to enlighten him little, to give him chance to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is saintly person's duty. Bob: That is what? Prabhupāda: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing, from anyone. (break) Bob: I think of people I know who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God. Bob: Oh, yeah. Are not very . . . are just slightly God conscious, but still these people are honest to the extent they don't take . . . they don't take from other people at all, and they try to be honest with other people. Will these . . . Prabhupāda: But he does not take from other people, but he takes from God. Bob: So these people are half good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bob: These people, then, are half good? Prabhupāda: Not half God. Bob: Half good, good. Prabhupāda: Not good. If he does not know this principle, that God is the proprietor . . . others' thing . . . what do you mean by others' thing? Bob: Like, people I'm thinking of, they're poor people who need money and food, but . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone needs money. Everyone needs. Who is not poor? Anyone find out. So many gentlemen sitting here. Who is not in need of food and money? You are also in need of money. So what do you distinguish poor and rich? Everyone needs. If that is your definition, if one needs money and food, everyone needs money and food. So everyone is poor. Bob: So, but, well, I was thinking of terms of just people who are relatively poor. Prabhupāda: No relatively. Relatively maybe. You are more hungry than me. But that does not mean you are not hungry or I am not hungry. I don't feel hungry now; that does not mean I do not feel hungry or I am not hungry. For the time being you may not be hungry. Tomorrow you'll be hungry. Bob: What I feel is that somehow these people that . . . everybody around them may be stealing, but they still stand up and don't steal. That these people somehow deserve something good to happen to them. Prabhupāda: But the man who is thinking that he's not stealing, he's also a thief. Because he does not know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever he's accepting, he's stealing. Bob: Is he less of a thief? Prabhupāda: You may not know that I am the proprietor of this wrapper, but if you take it away, are you not steal? Bob: But maybe it isn't . . . if I know it is yours and I take it, I'm a worse thief than if I do not know whose it is and I just think it may be nobody's and I take it. Prabhupāda: That is also stealing. Because it must belong to somebody. Bob: Yeah. Prabhupāda: How do you take without his permission? You may not know exactly who is the proprietor, but you must know, "It must belong to somebody." That is knowledge. Sometimes we see on the road so many valuable things are lying, government property. You see? For repairing roads or electrical, so many things, valuable things are lying down. But a man may think that it is "Fortunately, it is lying there; so I take it," is it not stealing? Bob: It is stealing. Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not know that these are all government property. He takes away. That is stealing. And when he's caught, he's arrested and he's punished. So similarly, whatever you are collecting . . . suppose you are drinking a glass of water from the river. Is the river your property? Bob: No. Prabhupāda: Then? It is stealing. You have not created the river. You do not know who is the proprietor. Therefore it is not your property. So even if you drink a glass of water without the knowledge to whom it belongs, you are a thief. So you may think, "I'm honest," but factually you are thief. Guest: Tahole, ekebare jol . . . nadir jol ami grahan korlam. Seta to amar sampatti noy. Kintu ami seta tahole amar . . . ta grahan ami ki kore korte pari? (Now say I am taking water . . . taking water from the river, it is not my property, then on what basis . . . can I accept that?) Prabhupāda: Sei jonye Kṛṣṇa to bolche. (For this reason Kṛṣṇa is saying.) Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). You must remember Kṛṣṇa that, "Kṛṣṇa, it is Your creation, so kindly allow me to drink it." This is honesty. This is honesty. *Therefore a devotee always thinks of Kṛṣṇa in all activities: "Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's." Sarvatra sphuraya tara iṣṭa*-deva mūrti (CC Madhya 8.274). This is honesty. Guest: Prabhupāda bolechen Kṛṣṇai holo ekmatra bhokta, ar sob tar vrtta. (Prabhupāda has said that the only enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, the rest of us are His servant.) *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, ei kathata to bojhanor ache. (This is the thing we are trying to make people understand.) So without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everyone is a rascal, is a thief, is a rogue, is a robber—these qualifications . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . therefore our conclusion is anyone who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, he has no good qualification. Neither he's honest, neither he has knowledge. Therefore he's a third*-class man. Is that correct? What do you think, Girirāja? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not dogmatism, this is fact. Guest: Mahanambrata ek khan "Sanatan Dharma" boi likhechen tate, Janmādy asya yato . . . satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1), ei satyaṁ bastu Kṛṣṇa na. (Mahanambrata has written a book called Sanatana Dharma , there he says that sloka , Janmādy asya yato . . . satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1), the satyaṁ here is not Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupāda: Chere den, baje lok sob, erom katha anen keno. (All rubbish people, kindly don't repeat their words.) Lady: Or yakhan, yekhane sekhane sekhate shuru kore dicche, sob . . . (According to time and place you should speak, all . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, na, oder principle, hat kali . . . ki ekta mantra oder. Hat Kali . . . (No no, their principle is hat Kali . . . some mantra is there . . . hat Kali . . .) (break) . . . you have understood what is knowledge and what is honesty? Bob: In a way. In a way. Prabhupāda: And if there is other way to defy it? Is there any other way? You defy it. (laughs) If there no other way? Girirāja? Girirāja: No. Prabhupāda: Is there any alternative, to defy it? We do not say anything which can be defied by anyone. That experience we have got. Rather, we defy it. "Any question?" Till now. And Kṛṣṇa gives us protection. In big, big meeting, in big, big country, after speaking I ask, "Any question?" Bob: Now I . . . I have none. Prabhupāda: In London, we had . . . how many days lecture in that, what is that, Conwall Hall? Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Conway Hall. Prabhupāda: Conway Hall, yes. Gurudāsa: Twelve days. Prabhupāda: So after every meeting I was asking, "Any question?" Bob: Did you get many questions? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Many foolish questions. (laughter) Bob: Let me ask one more question. What is being foolish? Prabhupāda: Foolish means who has no knowledge. Bob: No knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is foolish. Is it not foolish? Bob: Having no knowledge? Yes. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I have one personal question, can I ask? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Some time ago in Calcutta they observed a week, it was named "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals." Prabhupāda: Hmm. (chuckles) This is another foolishness. They are advertising prevention of cruelty, and they are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. You see? That is another foolishness. Indian man: No, I wanted just to ask . . . Prabhupāda: Asking . . . before asking, I give you the answer. (laughter) That is another foolishness. They're regularly cruel to the animals, and they're making Society. Bob: Maybe this is . . . Prabhupāda: Just like a gang of thieves gives a signboard, "Goodman and Company." A gang of thieves are giving signboard, "Goodman and Company." You sometimes find such signboard. Śyāmasundara: Our landlord in San Francisco temple, his name was Goodman. (laughs) (break) Bob: . . . returning very soon. Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that a animal, when it is not properly nourished, that is cruelty. Therefore instead of allowing to starve, better kill him. Where is that, theory. Is it not? Bob: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. They say: "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much . . ." That theory is coming in Communist country, that an old man, grandfather, is suffering; *better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation, they eat, make a festival by killing great*-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes. Śyāmasundara: They eat them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army, so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said: "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed. Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that, "Instead of suffering, just kill him." Girirāja: Yesterday you said that the spiritual master may have to suffer due to the sinful activities of his disciple. What do you mean by sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Sinful activity means therefore you promised that "I shall follow the regulative principles." If you do not, that is sinful. That is the promise. That is sinful. You break your promise and do nasty things, therefore you are sinful. Is it not? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Girirāja: But there are some things we're instructed to do . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Girirāja: There are other things which we're instructed to do which, even though we try to do, we cannot do perfectly yet. Prabhupāda: How is that? You try to do and cannot do? How it is? Girirāja: Like chanting attentively. Sometimes we try to . . . *Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is not fault. Suppose you are trying to do something, and due to your inexperience you sometimes fail, that is not fault. You are trying. There is a verse in Bhāgavata that a devotee is trying his best, but due to his incapability he sometimes fails. So Kṛṣṇa excuses. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā also it is said, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30). By . . . due to his bad habit, past, sometimes, not willingly, but due to his habit—habit is second nature—he does something nonsense. But that does not mean he is faulty. But he must repent for that that, "I have done this," and should try to avoid as far as possible. But habit is the second nature. Sometimes, in spite of our trying hard, the māyā is so strong, push me into pitfalls. That can be excused. Kṛṣṇa excuses. But those who are doing willingly something, that is not excused. On the strength that, "I am a devotee, I am chanting; therefore I may commit all this nonsense, it will be nullified," that is the greatest offense . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Conversation with Lalita Prasad -- March 2, 1972, Birnagar Lalitā Prasāda: Accha. (Well) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ekbare ghure asi, eibar sob thik thak hobe. (Everything will be alright once I return from this trip.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . ami ki raibo . . . (can I be rest assured?) Prabhupāda: Hya, Hya niscintye. (Yes, yes surely.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . Amar boi dekhabo, hater lekha . . . ami dekhiye debo apnake (Will show you my book, written by hand . . . I will show you . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Kothay? Maa kothay? (Where's your mother?) Boy: Maa prasad pacchen. (She's taking prasada .) Prabhupāda: Prasad pacche. (Taking prasada ?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . ta, apni khub khusi hoben? (. . . so, you will be happy?) Prabhupāda: Khub. (A lot.) So, Bhavānanda is sleeping in the car? Śyāmasundara: Yes he is feeling sick. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Erakam, erakam onek . . . onek . . . (indistinct) . . . ache. (Like this, like this, there are many . . . many . . . (indistinct) . . . have.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ta to thakbe. (Yes, that'll be there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Seiguno apni . . . ami yodi koredi, egulo tobe to purna brahman hobe. Pratijaner mangal hobe . . . bokar moto bole debo . . . (These things you . . . if I do that, then one will get full Brahman. Everyone will be blessed . . . I will say like a fool . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Boy: Dadu, apnar bichnar cadar din to . . . (Grandfather, give your bedcover . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? (What?) Boy: Bed coverta den, dekhiye dite hobe . . . (Please give me your bedcover, it has to be shown . . .) 1:49 - 1:55 (audio repeats) Boy: Dadu , Your bed cover . . . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . oh, I see . . . what? *Boy: Show me which bed*-cover . . . *Boy: Please give me your bed*-cover, it have to be shown . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, accha. (Oh yes, oh yes . . .) (indistinct) (indistinct background talk) (audio disruption) Gurudas: . . . the United States. In 1938 cause Bhaktivinod Ṭhākura had said that he shouldn't go. He said I tried to disobey him. (indistinct Bengali conversation) (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . Amra ekhon yacchi. (We are leaving now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni yaben kibhabe . . . (How can you go now . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Eikhanete . . . amar kache sob . . . onek sob meyera asche . . . (indistinct) . . . bari kinbo ar apni sob dekhasuna korben. (Over here there was . . . many girls come and join my movement . . . (indistinct) . . . will buy a house and you will look after all these.) (conversation in the background) (break) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . kirtan . . . bari korle . . . (kirtana . . . built a house . . .) Śyāmasundara: You just got started on this? Jayapataka: (indistinct) . . . started already Lady: Amader baro baro shiksha . . . (We had big big teaching sessions . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Tumi ya shikhecho sob . . . (Whatever you've learned, everything . . .) Śyāmasundara: Let's just finish. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinod Thakura sikshaoto eki. (Teachings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura are also the same . . .) Lady: Tai, sei sob . . . (Yes, all that . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekta katha ache . . . (I have one thing to say . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Na bolleto hoy na . . . (It's not possible not to say it . . .) Prabhupāda: What? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct whispers) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . natun shiksha, alocana korbo (. . . new teachings, we will discuss later.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Pore korbo . . . accha, tahole ami collum. (We'll discuss later . . . all right, I'll take leave . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Ami dekhabo . . . boi gulo thik ache? (I will show you ok?) Lady: Accha, dandavat. (All right, dandavat .) Prabhupāda: Dandavat . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dui din dhore ekhane thakben na? (Are you not going to stay here for two days?) Prabhupāda: Eibar ese thakbo. (Next time when I will come, I will stay.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . apni nije . . . eka. Dui din . . . (. . . all by yourself . . . alone for two days . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lady: Bolchi, guru paramparar katha . . . bujhte parchen? (Regarding guru parampara . . . are you getting?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady: Oi bhaktara guru paramparar kathar bisaye sei bolche . . . (A devotee mentioned about guru parampara . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (devotees talking) Prabhupāda: Hya . . . (Yes . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . Lady: Ki ki abasta sei hoyeche, seigulo bolche, sob janen ei gulo bolche . . . (He's narrating our plight and the situation . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (break) (indistinct talking) Prabhupāda: Sob thik thak kora yabe na? (We can settle everything?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Seto amar yete hobe. Ar Bombay yodi asen tahole to khub bhalo hoy. Bombay aste parbena? Take ami kharca debo sob. (Oh. Then I have to leave. If he can come to Bombay, then that will be good. Can't he come to Bombay? I can take care of the expenses.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . na, na, tara onek kharca diye geche. (. . . no no, they have given sufficient money for expenses.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . asharamer lokera bahu kharca diye niye geche. (People from ashram. Given enough for expenses.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (All right.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ar telegram karo Hrshikesh prabhuke . . . (and sent a telegram to Hrshikesh prabhu . . .) Prabhupāda: Tar sange na dekha hole ki kore kaj hobe? (Unless I meet him, how will the work get done?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hobe kaj (It will get done . . .) (indistinct Bengali) . . . Prabhupāda: Hya. Apni thakte . . . (Yes. While you are here . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tahole take telegram kore anao na. (Why don't you send a telegram and get him to come here.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Boy: Eito or chuti furiye geche. (His leave is over.) Prabhupāda: Huh. Boy: Asbe. (That he will come . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Seto America, asbe kar theke . . . chuti . . . (He has a job . . . his leave is . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ami Kolkata te . . . khub jor aat tarikh abdi thakbo. Sei lok se er bhetare asbe? (I will be in Calcutta . . . maximum till the 8th. Will he be able to come by then?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Boy: Oi maser aat tarikh? (The 8th of next month?) Prabhupāda: Na, ei maser. (No, this month.) Boy: Oh. Hya, hya er modhye. (Oh. Yes, yes, within this . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ei maser mane . . . aj, March maser dosra to . . . (This month means . . . today, is the 2nd of March . . .) Boy: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . accha, se yai koruk, ami to royechi ar Maharaj . . . bhayer ki ache? Ya hoy, kono cinta korbe na. Se ya bolbo tai korte hobe take. (All right, whatever he does, I am here and Mahārāja . . . what's to fear? Whatever will be, no need to worry. Whatever I will say, that he has to abide.) Prabhupāda: Accha . . . (All right . . .) (indistinct) Lady: . . . eikhane ei . . . ei . . . Uttam Thakurer mandir dekhechen? (Did you see the temple here built by Uttam Thakura?) Lalitā Prasāda: Uni bolchen sono . . . (indistinct) . . . uni bolchen ye, dakshin ko . . . (indistinct) . . . purba kore . . . (indistinct) . . . pechane hoye yabe. (Listen to what he's saying . . . (indistinct) . . . he's saying that the south . . . (indistinct) . . . east sided . . . (indistinct) . . . that will be back side.) Lady: Pub mukho mandirer mukh to . . . ta amader choto mandiroto purba mukha mandir royeche. (The temple is facing east . . . and our small temple is also east facing.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oito . . . (indistinct) . . . pase thaklei bhalo hoy . . . (That . . . (indistinct) . . . better if it stays beside . . .) Prabhupāda: Pase thaklei bhalo hoy . . . (Better if it stays beside . . .) Lady: Tahole uttar mukha hobe? (Then that will be north facing?) Prabhupāda: Uttar mukha uni bolchen hoy na. (He's saying that it must not face north. That's not the standard.) Lady: Uttar mukha konodin bari dite pare na . . . (A house is never should be north facing . . .) Prabhupāda: Dakshin mukha hoy ar purba mukha hoy. (It must either face south or east.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole, oi jami jaygay, ami boli kon jaygay mandirer kono portion ber kore . . . (indistict) . . . choto . . . (indistinct) . . . apnara baro kore mandir korben. (Then the land, I am saying that some portion, in the temple some portion have to be demarcated . . . (indistinct) . . . the small one . . . (indistinct) . . . all of you will build a big temple.) Prabhupāda: Na, na, ota baro mandire dhukiye dite hobe. (No, that has to be placed within the big temple.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Hya, sei. (Yes, That's right.) Prabhupāda: Baro mandir yeta hobe. Bhaktivinod Thakur . . . (The big temple. That will be made. Is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei paryanta kete, aro ucu kore . . . (By cutting this portion, by raising it more higher . . .) Lady: (indistinct) . . . ami bolchi ye, Prabhuke taratari sange kore ene mapa mapi thik kore, sthan thik kore rakhen . . . (I'm saying that let Prabhu quickly decide and demarcate the land . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dekhun, ami . . ami . . . (Look, I am . . . I'm . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pukurta khub bhalo kore pariskar kore . . . (The pond also has to be cleansed properly . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Na . . . (indistinct) . . . korito . . . (No . . . (indistinct) . . . all were done . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . badh tairi kore nice abdi korechi, nongra hoye gele ami ki korbo? (. . . by making a dam, I have cleaned up to the bottom, if it gets dirty, what can I do?) Prabhupāda: Oh, na . . . lokjon nai . . . lokjon to pahara . . . (Oh, that . . . there are no people . . . people need for guard . . .) Lady: Lokjoner abhab . . . pariskar . . . (There's a dearth of help . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Pahara . . . hoye yabe . . . (Guard . . . will happen . . .) Prabhupāda: Oita ekta bhalo park er moton kora hobe. (That will be made into a good park.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, kora yabe. Ar bolchi ye, khanik pore, amader eiye, ei jamir koler oi dikta. Decorate korun na bhalo kore. (Yes, that can be done. And what I'm saying is that after sometime, After this part of the land, on that side. Why don't you decorate it nicely.) Prabhupāda: Sob, bhalo bagan, age park ar or bhitare mandir. (All these. A good garden, a park and the temple within these.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ar baki gulo cas*-bas hok na. (And let there be farming in the rest of the land.) Lady: Prabhu, pratham ye paisa pathiyechilen, tar jonyeto golap bagan korechilen . . . (Prabhu, when he first got money, he made a rose garden with that . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . panera hajar taka diye . . . (with fifteen thousand rupees . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) . . . cole gelo, ar sob mali, barojan mali theke phul bagane jal dito, se sob mali paliye gelo. Ar to eisob drabya, mulya hoye gelo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar se paisar abhab hoye gelo . . . (they left, and the gardeners Twelve gardeners. who were watering the flowers garden, ran away. And then everything became very expensive . . . (indistinct) . . . and there was a shortage of money . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . lokjan ra nao, nijera korte hoy. (not with outside people, it has to be done on our own.) Lady: Ar se malir abhabi pradhan. Ekhonto ekti jayga chilo, tao . . . (The main problem is a lack of a gardener. Earlier there was some space, that too . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Era yodi nijera keu, keu kaj karta, ati sundar gach tairi hoy tobe . . . (If they can do it by themselves then a beautiful plantation can be made but . . .) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Mali tali . . . kiram maine ney era? Malira? (How much salary do the gardeners take over here?) *Lady: Tin taka car ana daily nebe, eram abasta. Ekjan nebe ar . . . (Three rupees and twenty*-five paisa daily, this is the situation. One person will take and . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Bhalo mali cai? Sattor taka, nabbai taka khaoa para diye. Erakam cay . . . (It works out for a good gardener to seventy rupees, ninety rupees per month with food. They demand like this . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Jayapataka: Baro mali esche. (Renowned gardeners are there.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapataka: Kolkatar mali. (Gardeners from Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: The labour charge is three to four rupees every day. Lady: Eta sara phul bagan chilo. Foreigner sob golap, ki sundar sob phul, samasta . . . (All these here were flower gardens. Beautiful roses of foreign, also other beautiful flowers, all . . .) Prabhupāda: Take ektu bolbe ye, "tomar ye dena ache diye dicche tumi aso". (Tell him that, "all your debt will be paid off, you come back".) Acyutānanda: To pay off that gardeners debt. Prabhupāda: Well I have already promised him to pay all his debts but he, he said yes but he did not come. I am prepared to pay whatever his debt. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . (indistinct) . . . bujhte parcho? (Do you understand?) Prabhupāda: Yodi tini amar gaye, amar sangei thakto, taholei to katha . . . (If he stays in my village with me, then I can talk . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . maai karabe. Maai karabe age . . . ei maa ke . . . maa kane yabe? Harinamo colbe abar edikeo (Mother will arrange to make it. Mother will arrange . . . mother . . . where mother will go? Harinama will also continue and on the other side . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oiye society ta register korechilen to? (Did you register the society?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya . . (Yes . . .) (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Kagajta ache to? (Are the papers there?) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . originalta nei, ar ki cai? Debo . . . (except the original, do you need anything else? Will give . . .) (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: Originalta dekha yabe to? (Can I see the original?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, original dekhato . . . (Yes, show him the original . . .) Devotee: Konta? (Which one?) Lalitā Prasāda: Oiye . . . khamer modhye . . . (That . . . may be inside the envelope . . .) Devotee: Baksa ta? (The box?) Lalitā Prasāda: Bakse ache? (Is it in the box?) Devotee: Govinda jabe. (Govinda knows.) Lalitā Prasāda: Namabi, amar kalke darkar . . . iye porbe, bar kore an. (Get those down, I need it tomorrow . . . he will read, take out and give.) Devotee: Koi er modhye to? (Into this?) Lalitā Prasāda: Dakde na, Govinda ke dak de. (Call Him. Call Govinda.) Devotee: Govinda Da. Edike asoto. (Govinda Da. (older brother) Please come here.) Govinda: Han. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amar iye ta de to Govinda . . . (Govinda please give me, my that . . .) (Indistinct conversation) Devotee: Cabi. Edike khola ache. (Key. Oh it's open from this side.) Lady: Durga thakurer yerakam, yebhabe ache ei maper bhetarei karate hobe to? (Will it be done like the same size, of our Durga deity?) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . hya, otei . . . (yes, that's the one . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Govinda: Hmm, hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Pechane, sesh bhage, pechan dike. Pack kar. Ekbar dekhiye dicche, original ta, original ta . . . oi trunk te original ta. (Backside, at the end, backside. See. Will show you. The original, the original . . . the original one is in the trunk.) (sound of trunk) *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ami dekhlum, eta yodi amar niye rakhi . . . amar bhaipo sob oi rakam . . . sob . . . (indistinct) . . . khoka abar nasta korbe . . . ar . . . ar amar, badha diye . . . Hari*-nam . . . boi chapay, badha diyeche . . . amake badha diyeche, aj ami ekti school khulte partum, amake tao badh diyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . jor kore beriye gelam . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhane oder kache thakle kicchu korte dilo na . . . (indistinct) . . . Hari-nam . . . (I thought that, if I keep with me . . . my nephew's, all like that . . . (indistinct) . . . will destroy all . . . and my, my . . . hindered . . . the Hari-nam . . . book printing, they have opposed . . . they have opposed me, now I could open a school, but they have opposed me . . . (indistinct) . . . forcefully I came out . . . (indistinct) . . . because they will not let me do anything if I stay with them . . . (indistinct) . . . Hari-nam . . .) (indistinct Bengali) (break) (indistinct conversation) Lalitā Prasāda: Pele na. (Haven't you got it.) Prabhupāda: Don't keep there. There is tendency of falling down. Śyāmasundara: I'll just wash my hands then I'll sit it nicely. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali conversation) Devotee: . . . registration of company yar . . . (. . . registration of company . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, registration company. Eiye, eti. (Yes registration of company. Here, here it is.) *Devotee: . . . Bhaktivinode*-goṣṭhī. Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Eta nakal na asol ta? (Yes. Is it a duplicate or the original one?) Devotee: . . . registration. Lalitā Prasāda: Eiye . . . (Here . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Devotee: Eta ki? (What is this?) Lalitā Prasāda: Nao, emni khule niye yao. (Take this, open and take it off.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . goṣṭhī Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . gosthi holo, paribar . . . (what means by goṣṭhī , it is a family . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Ah. Family. Lalitā Prasāda: And who who will declare that . . . (indistinct) . . . a religious ceremony he will have Full power . . . he can do everything. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Śevite? Śyāmasundara: These are the Śevite? Lalitā Prasāda: Śrī Sevites. Lalitā Prasāda: Śevite has more importance than anybody . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Then there is the signature of the seven persons. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Rules and regulations? Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Śyāmasundara: . . . of Śrī Bhaktivinode*-goṣṭhī. Constitution. Constitution. This charitable religious literary association or society called Śrī Bhaktivinode-goṣṭhī is constituted and composed of seven members. Some of them paying subscription annually, and others for life paying subscriptions at a time. Including the Śevite of the Ulla Śrī Bhaktivinode Dvāras Mandir in the municipal town of Birnagar in the district of Nadia, West Bengal and the goṣṭhīpati of the society. All of whom will form the mem . . . Prabhupāda: Goṣṭhīpathi of the society . . . of Vṛndāvana? Gosthipati ke? (Who is goṣṭhīpati ?) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Gosthipati ami. (I am goṣṭhīpati .) Śyāmasundara: He's goṣṭhīpati . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: All of whom will form the managing executive committee and governing body, and will be eligible to become office bearers and will hold posts as - 1. President and Vice president. 2. Secretary and joint or assistant secretaries. 3. Treasurer and 4. Librarian, oh no. 5. Treasurer and librarian. 6. Accountant. 7. Auditor. 8. Manager. 9. Goṣṭhīpathi . 10. Sevite and his assistants to perform seva and pūjā of deities at the said Mandir . And will hold any other post or posts which will be created afterwards by the committee as under the rules. Subscription of life member shall be annually 300 rupees at a time. Lalitā Prasāda: Onader na bolle to, prastut hoy na. (If it's not specified, then they won't be ready.) Prabhupāda: Hmm Śyāmasundara: The subscription for ordinary member shall be rupees one per month or rupees 12 per annum. Prabhupāda: 300 for whom? Śyāmasundara: Life members. Prabhupāda: Hmm, life members. Śyāmasundara: At a time. Prabhupāda: Tahole, Oh . . . (Then, Oh . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . kore diyechi ami, tarpor public korche . . . ye, ya hok yoga yog kora hoyeche . . . se asbe . . . ami yato din bece achi . . . (I have added, then the public is doing . . . somehow, in whatever way, they will communicate . . . and come . . . but 'till the time I am living . . .) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Amarto sob nasta kore diyeche . . . onek larai korechi ami. Amader ekhane nasta korbe? Ar na. (My everything they have spoiled . . . I fought a lot. Will spoil everything here at our place? Not any more.) Śyāmasundara: These members will be solely and wholly in charge of the money. Gurudas: Who? Śyāmasundara: These members. Lalitā Prasāda: Those are . . . Śyāmasundara: Seven member. Lalitā Prasāda: Technical constitution.Technical constitution. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: Under laws of . . . (indistinct) . . . illegal. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Those are written according to the legal . . . Śyāmasundara: Legal code? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. These, these seven members? . . . (indistinct) . . . says these members. That is the seven members? . . . (indistinct) . . . says these members. That is the seven members? Lalitā Prasāda: Seven members regular members Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: They are always holding on this) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: And others, the others, lot's of members. Thousand and thousand members . . . (indistinct) . . . account what has gone wrong? (laughs) (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: It sounds like our constitution. Prabhupāda: It is the same. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhabo onake. (Will show him.) . . . (indistinct) Lady: Na, daber jal. (No, water of green coconut.) Lalitā Prasāda: Daber jal, khub bhalo lage. (Water of green coconut, that's good.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . in my own mind . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Ar debo? (Shall give more?) Prabhupāda: Aro ache? (Is there more?) Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Dao. (Give me.) Lalitā Prasāda: Only challenge, who will be secretary? And who will be the . . . (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, eita hate lekha . . . (Oh, this is written by hand . . .) this is handwritten? We shall try . . . (indistinct) Jayapataka: Yogapith kono katha ache? (Is there any writings on Yogapitha?) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, yogapith rakhte cai ni. Yogapith . . . apnader Guru chilo . . . (No, did not want to keep a Yogapitha. Yogapitha . . . your Guru was there . . .) Jayapataka: Sadananda Sukherkoli? Lalitā Prasāda: Sadananda sukherkoli . . . (indistinct) . . . ekdike chilo bengal . . . (at one side was Bengal . . .) govt. . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . amar bhaira sob oirakam apni janen to, sob anya rakam . . . age oigulo nasta kore ditei byasta. Ta ami oderke tyag korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . keno tumi . . . oke . . . ami sune eichi (you know the type of my brothers, they are different . . . they were eager to spoil these first. When I decided to leave them . . . (indistinct) . . . why you will . . . him . . . I listen to all these) . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . sob amar pac hajar boi nasta kore diyeche . . . curi kore niye geche . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (have spoiled five thousand books . . . they took away by stealing.) Five thousand. Invaluable. Finished. We will never get those stocks in the library. Kept five thousand books . . . again I purchased . . . and locked there . . . (indistinct) . . . you take book and go out. Śyāmasundara: Is library here? Devotee: Yes. We purchased the . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: And, and . . . (indistinct) . . . amar lekhapara nasta korarbar jonya ora . . . ora ekdom . . . (to destroy my reading and writings they are . . .) (Bengali conversation) Prabhupāda: Amar mone hoy . . . ye, amader ye society ache . . . (I think . . . just as we have our society . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ei bhabe . . . (Same way . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eki bhabe . . . (The same way . . .) Prabhupāda: Eki bhabe . . . (Same way . . .) Prabhupāda: To, apnader society amaderke . . . amader society ke, eta lease diye dik. (So, your society can give us, our society, a lease.) For development. Tahole, simple hoye yabe. Apnader ya management ache thak. Kintu ei jaygata, samasta develope korbar jonye, (Then, it will become simple. Let the management remain with you. But for the development of this place,) we hold the lease from you. Lalitā Prasāda: For how many years? Legal limit ache. (There are legal limits.) Prabhupāda: Legal limit, so 99 years. Lalitā Prasāda: 99 years. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kore den. Taholei sob amra arambha kore di. Apnader ya constitution thak. Amader constitution amader kache. Kintu eta lease, amra sob develop kori. Bas . . . (you do it. Then we can start. Let your constitution remain the same. We have our own constitution. Only on lease we will develop this place. That's all.) Simple fact. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole amader member der deke, decision kora yak. (That means now we have to convene a meeting of the members and make a decision.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Eito? (That's what you mean to say?) *Prabhupāda: Kore. Bas. Amader ekta lease kore den, ar amra arambha kore di kaj. Kaj ar ki hobe, mandir tairi hobe, bagan tairi hobe, park tairi hobe. Eisob dash*-panera jan ekhane thakbe. Apnader lok ache kirtan hobe . . . ei hobe, ar ki. (After doing that, that's all. You prepare the lease for us, and we can begin work. Then, the temple, garden and park can be built. Ten or fifteen people will come to stay here. You also have some people they will have kirtana . . . this is what will happen.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eito jinish . . . tai jonyeito hoyeche, naile onno kichur jonye hoyni to. (This place is there only for these things, not for anything else.) Prabhupāda: Onya kichur jonye hoyni to? (Does this happen for anything else?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekhane kau ke dhukte dini, kono . . . (indistinct) . . . aste dini. (I haven't allowed anyone to come here, any . . . (indistinct) . . . I haven't allowed.) Prabhupāda: Sutarang, (Therefore,) simple lease for so many years, with option to revive. Eram bhabe ekta khali lease kore den, bas hoye gelo. (Just make a lease like this, and it's done.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Ki bollen? (What did you say?) Prabhupāda: Eram ekta lease kore den. (Please make a lease.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Bas, ato gift korte hobena. Gift korar darkar nei. (That's all, you don't have to gift. There's no need for gift.) We don't want proprietorship, you give us lease. Lalitā Prasāda: Lease. Prabhupāda: For 99 years. For development, that's all. Tarpore amra sob kore nebo. Amader lok thakbe, apnader lok thakbe, seva, puja hobe. (After that we will do everything. Your people will be there, and our people will be there to render service and worship.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Er er er . . . ekla, ei paryanta ya, ta ghot te thakuk . . . (Alone, let it remain 'till this . . .) Prabhupāda: To thak. (Let it remain.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ar odik ya ache . . . (And on that side whatever is there . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, odik ta, oidikta amader lease kore dao. (Yes, that side, just give us lease for that side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Seram dharaner bod mais. (Here the boys are notorious.) Prabhupāda: Eta apnader . . . (This thing of yours . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eiye amaro icche tai. (It's not my wish also.) Prabhupāda: Thik. Eidikta apnader yeman ache thak, oi dikta amader diye din. (Very correct. Let this portion remain as it is, just give us that side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole ami kore yabo, era . . . (I am doing all these, they . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Bas, bas . . . (All right, all right . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Oidikta onek jami ache . . . oi . . oi kaj khana tumi karo. (On that side the quantity of land is more . . . that . . . on that side you start work.) Prabhupāda: Hya, oidikta amra grahan korbo. (Yes, that side we will take.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole apni, ama . . . amar . . . amar mate . . . mat tai. (So you also have the same opinion.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarikh asbe kobe. Lease kore dei. (When the date will come. Let me lease to you.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babuke giye bal ge. Kartik babu parbe ki? (Tell this to Kartik babu. Can Kartik babu do this?) Devotee: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babur to apnar sange dekha hoyni. (Kartik babu didn't meet with you yet.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Kartik babur sange dekha hoy ni. (Couldn't meet Kartik babu (Mr. Kartik). Kartik babu) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: Ek sange porechi college. (We study together at the same college.) Prabhupāda: Tahole to amader college, Scottish te to amra porechi. (It's our college then, we studied at Scottish.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Subhas Bose age . . . iye te porto . . . Presidency . . . (Subhas Bose studied there, in his Presidency . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Subhas to amar bhai, choto bhai, Janaki kakar chele. (Subhas is my brother, younger brother, the son of Janaki uncle.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) Janakipada ar Haripada, dui bhai. Ar Balaram chilo . . . (Janki Pada and Hari Pada, they are two brothers. And Balaram was . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Janaki Babu ki apnader atmiya hoten? (Was Janaki Babu a relative to your family?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei Madan Mohan Dutta holo relative, Kolkatar sabceye baro chilen Madan Mohan Dutta. (Madan Mohan Dutta was relative of ours, Madan Mohan Dutta was a great personality of Kolkata) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya, Madan Mohan Dutta nam sunechi. (Yes I heard about Madan Mohan Dutta.) Lalitā Prasāda: Madan Mohan Dutter . . . or nam (Madan Mohan Dutta's . . . his name . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: Tobe amar bhai hoy samparke, kaka (In relation they are my brother, uncle in fact . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Janaki Bose. Lalitā Prasāda: Hmm, Janaki Bose . . . Prabhupāda: Accha, Kartik Boser sange apnader . . . (Do you have any link with Kartik Bose . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Kar? Kartik Boser sathe . . . (Who? With Kartik Bose . . .) Prabhupāda: Dr. Kartik Bose . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Na, amader sange kono samparka nei. Ami kichu janine yodi kichu hoy, ami janine. Ami sob jani kintu se, amar jana kichu nei. (No, we don't have any relation with them. At least I don't know if there is any relation, I don't know. I have knowledge of all these, but I don't know anything about this.) Prabhupāda: Ami Kartik Boser laboratorir manager chilam. (I used to work as a manager in Kartik Bose's laboratory.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni bolechilen . . . (You told . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Uni amar babar khub bisesh bandhu. (He (Kartik Bose) was a very special friend of my father.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khub bha . . . Kartik Babu . . . amyao khub bhalobasten choto belay, ami yetam majhe majhe okhane. . . . (indistinct) . . . ar Khudiram Bose . . . (indistinct) . . . nam ke na jane. (Oh Kartik Babu . . . also loved me a lot in my childhood, I used to visit there occasionally . . . (indistinct) . . . Khudiram Bose, Kalindi Bose, they were known to people.) Prabhupāda: Oi Janaki Bose, Kartik Boser kache asto. Orao oi Harinavi Bose. Ora. (Janaki Bose used to visit Kartik Bose. They are the Bose family of Harinavi. They are.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hari Ballabh Boser choto bhai chilo Roy Bahadur. Ora Cuttacke government trader. (His younger brother was Hari Ballabh Bose who was awarded Roy Bahadur. They were Govt Traders in Cuttack.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Janaki Bose pratham government booking . . . (Yes, Janaki Bose's first Govt. booking . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oderto Elgin Roade bari. (Their home is at Elgin Road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Pare bolchi. Pare yog korchi ye, or Baruipure bari, Baruipur. (Will tell you later. They added it later that is, their home was at Baruipur, Baruipur.) Prabhupāda: Oh, Baruipur. Lalitā Prasāda: Baruipur . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Kartik Bosero bari Baruipur. (Kartik Bose's home was also at Baruipur.) Lalitā Prasāda: Janaki . . . Janaki Boser kache giye ei kagaj gulon dekhiyechi, bollo ekhane rekhe dao ami kore debo. Manus . . . taka . . . (indistinct) . . . Ta o paisa nite gelo. (Once I had shown some of my work to Janaki Bose at his residence, he said ok you can leave it here, I will do rest of the things. Man . . . money . . . (indistinct) . . . so he went asking for money.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Paisa nite gelo. Ar ek dhamkani dadake . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). Ta eisob gulo dadar bisaye bollen, amito chele manus, ami ha kore sunlum. (laughs). Ami sobar ceye choto. Takhano khub illegal kichu janina, apnake tai ektu bolchi ami esob katha. (Went to ask for money. And elder brother received chastisement . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). My brother told me this. I was young then, I only listened silently. (laughs). As I was the youngest of all, I didn't have any idea regarding legal things, I am just casually saying all these things to you.) *Prabhupāda: Hya. Ar Allahabade oi Mittir ra chilo, seo apnader kuttumba. Karon Prabhupad Allahabade yakhan gechilen, amra se paichari kore, kore gappo kortam, Mittir der katha uni sob jijnes*-tijnes korchilen. (Yes. The Mittirs of Allahabad, I think they are also somehow related to your family. Because when Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura) visited Allahabad, we used to talk while strolling, and he was also asking about the Mittir family.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob, mane Kolkata sahare to amra chara keu chilo na . . . (Oh. I mean in Kolkata at that time there were not many people besides us . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, Hatkholar Duttara to . . . (The Dutta's of Hatkhola . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni yodi . . . apnaro puron lok ami ekshani ber kore debo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar oi Ghosh Babu. (Now if you . . . I can show you the older residents than you . . . (indistinct) . . . and that Ghosh Babu.) Prabhupāda: Kono rakame te, ekhon abar sob sangyog hoyeche. (Somehow or other now everyone got connected again.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami sob jani, ami giye Maitra da . . . aro bhabi, ke? kabe? Se mela din dekhinito, ke oi lokta? (I know all these, I went, Maitra da . . . I just think, who? When? As I have not seen them since long, who is this person? (laughs) (Ami besh bhabi. Apnar . . . (indistinct) . . . kothay thake? (I only think. Your . . . (indistinct) . . . where does he stay?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Amader bari chelo Harrison roade. (Our home was at Harrison Road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Harrison roade (Harrison Road) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oi ye Go . . . Gokul Gosvai chilo na? (That Gokul Gosvai was not?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, Gokul Gosvai. (Yes, Gokul Gosai.) Prabhupāda: Oi paray. (In that locality.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ar Biswa sahajagita korben . . . oi iye sarkar debe. Takhan ami choto chilem, or ceye choto. Sange, sange gelum . . . (indistinct) . . . onek lok chilo, segulo sob amake bhalobasto. (Yes, and Biswa will help us . . . Govt. will give. Then I was young, younger than him. So I go with him . . . (indistinct) . . . there were many people, all of them loved me.) Prabhupāda: Ke na bhalobasbe apnake? (Who will not love you?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ayaa? (What?) Prabhupāda: Ke apnake bhalobasbe na? (Who won't love you?) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . amake kato ador korto . . . (they used to care for me a lot . . .) Prabhupāda: Dekhte bhalo. Choto chele, sabai bhalobase. (You are good looking. Youngest son, everyone loves naturally.) (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, uni yekhanei yeten, amake niye yeten . . . Bhaktivinod yekhanei yeten . . . (Actually, He used to take me with him wherever he would go . . . wherever Bhaktivinoda would go . . .) Prabhupāda: Ami chelebelay khub dekhte bhalo chilen monei hocche, dekhei bojha yacche. (At your young age you were so good looking that anyone can understand by seeing you.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amake sob jaygay niye yeto erom kore . . . (He used to take me everywhere, like this . . .) Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami ki . . . (Will I . . .) Prabhupāda: Apnader sob bhairai sob dekhte bhalo. (All of your brothers are good looking.) Lalitā Prasāda: Nam, dak chilo na kichu, Bhaktivinod Thakurer. (But didn't have any name, fame of Bhaktivinoda Thakura.) Prabhupāda: Ei . . . ei Gosvai ti katdin royeche apnar kache? (How long this . . . this Gosvai (Vaisnava) is here with you?) Lalitā Prasāda: O ajke aat bachor amar kache thake. Oh saat bachore . . . (He is here for about eight years. His seven years . . .) Lady: Saat bachor bayose bari chere ache. (At the age of seven he came from home.) Lalitā Prasāda: Saat bachor bayose or baba chere diye gelo eikhane. (His father left him here at the age of seven.) Prabhupāda: Besh . . . besh calak chele. (Well . . . he is very clever boy.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, khub calak noy. (No, not that much clever.) Prabhupāda: Khub calak noy? Boka? (Not that much? A bit foolish?) Lalitā Prasāda: Brainta ektu defective ache. Amar kache theke khanikta hoyeche, kintu oi schoole yabar por abar . . . (His brain is a little defective. Some improvement happened after he stayed here with me, but once he began to go to school . . .) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . svikar korben na . . . (not going to accept it . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . abar kharap hoyeche, schoole yabar por kharap hoyeche. (again defective. After going to school he became defective.) Lady: Or maa'r oi eki . . . (His mother also has the same problem . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: A khub byasta amader anbar janya. (He is very eager to bring us here.) Lady: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Niscai. (Of course.) Prabhupāda: Apni bolchen boka, kintu amaderke anbar janya o byasta. (You are saying he is a fool, but he is very eager to bring us.) Lalitā Prasāda: O boka noy, ei samyandhe boka noy. (He is not a fool, at least not on these issues.) Prabhupāda: A samyandhe khub calak? (Very clever on such matters.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, kebol schooler pora, masterder bolbe, kichukshon pore, repeat korbe bhule yabe, ar ei fail hoye yabe. (Only the studies of school, teachers will scold. When they ask him questions, he will forget and eventually will fail the exam.) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Mane, Fokre Bhatcarjee, thaki Hatkhola, falanite atta*-sota, bikrir name kac kala. (laughter) Ki tai naki? (Means all other aspects are fine but when it comes to the matter of study, he is like a green banana (very poor) (laughter) So, is it not the fact?) (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Falanite atta*-sota, bikrr name kac kala. (Other aspects are good but in study, like a green banana.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun . . . ati choto bayase, oi Mayapur dvipe emon bhakti holo ye, Calcuttay ar yay ni. (See . . . in this young age, he got so much love for Māyāpur, for that he didn't return to Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Tato batei. (That's a fact.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Bap maa esche. Yei bolecchi bap*-maa esche, ek dor . . . ami kole kore niye giye jor . . . bichanay . . . jor kore bichanay bosiyechi . . . (Once his parents have come. As I told him that his parents have come, he ran away . . . I carried in lap and forcefully make him seat in the bed . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Or, Calcuttay or . . . Calcutta te khub influence or. (He has good influence in Calcutta. Very influential in Calcutta.) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tahole . . . (Then . . .) now I require massages. Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole, kalke kakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . uni . . . uni apnader communicate korbe. (Then, tomorrow which time . . . (indistinct) . . . he . . . he will communicate with you.) Śyāmasundara: Where would you like to take massage? In the sunshine? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: In the sun? Prabhupāda: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Ki bollo? (What he said?) Śyāmasundara: Massage. Prabhupāda will take massage. Lalitā Prasāda: Nice ache, bosbe. Ei ye sofa, massage korbe? (This sofa is low in height, so will you massage here?) Prabhupāda: A kore debe . . . (He will arrange . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Bichanay kore di? (Should I arrange a bed?) Prabhupāda: Thak bichanay na, madur pete dilei hobe. (Not in the bed, just lay a mat, it will be fine.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei roddure? Naki upare? (In the sunshine or upstairs?) Boy: Upare debo? Upare? Na ghare? (Where will we lay it, upstairs or in the room?) Prabhupāda: Opore keno, oi raddure. (Why upstairs, in the sun.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ghare? (In the room?) Prabhupāda: Na, ei raddure. (No, in the sunshine.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei rode? (Here, in the Sun?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Kasta hobe na? (Will it not be inconvenient?) Prabhupāda: Beshi raddur ki? (Is the sunshine too bright here?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ar Kasta hole, baire aso. (If you feel discomfort then come back.) Boy: Ghar khule dena. (I will open the room.) Prabhupāda: Ektu raddurei bhalo. (It is better in the Sun.) Lady: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, gharer chader opr niye ya na. Chader opor niye gele baro bhalo hoto. (Take them on the terrace. It would have been better on the terrace.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Chader oporer ghar besh bhalo. (In the terrace room, there it would be good.) Prabhupāda: Chade keno? Eito ekhane besh . . . (Why terrace, just here in this place is good . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ekhane ghaser opor besh naram hobe. (Here in the grass, it will be soft here.) Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, bichana kore dao. (Okay, put a bed here.) Prabhupāda: Na, ekta madur pete dilei hobe. (No, just a mat will be good.) Lady: Hya, oitaito choto ache . . . pata chilo. (Yes, that's a little small . . . already arranged.) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu sarser tel. (And a little mustard oil.) Lalitā Prasāda: Very good that you are keeping in your . . . (laughs) I am very glad. Na, apni bacar age, yatadin iye kore protect thaka yay . . . (indistinct) . . . oi dike niye ya to. (Yes, as long as you can be kept alive and protected . . . (indistinct) . . . take to that side.) Lady: Hya, oi Neem tala ta . . . (Yes, beneath that Neem tree . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei bolna. (Hey, tell him.) Lady: Neem tala ta. (Below the Neem tree.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khoka. Ei . . . ei khane dik. (Khoka. This . . . this side he can put.) Lady: Na, na oi Neem tala khub bhalo hobe. (No, no . . . beneath the Neem tree will be good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem tala? (Underneath the Neem tree?) Lady: Garir pase, Neem gach tar kahe, alpo raddur to . . .) (Beside the car, the Neem tree, the sunshine is a little less there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talay jabe? (Will it go beneath the Neem tree?) Lady: Hya, ei Hari. (Yes, hey Hari.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhna Hari. (Hari just see.) Lady: Gaborta sariye de to. (Clear the cow dung.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talay rakh. (Keep it beneath the Neem tree.) Lady: Neem talar gabor ta sariye dik, khub bhalo yayga. (Beneath the Neem tree, just clear the cow dung, it's a very good place.) Lalitā Prasāda: Neem talar gabar sara. Oi khane mat pete de, Neem talai bhalo. (Clear the cow dung beneath the Neem tree. Lay this mat there, beneath the Neem tree is actually good.) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu khani garam jal cai. (And a little bit of hot water is required.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Khule dilei holo, jal bhara ache. (Water is already stored, just open it.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, jal bharai ache . . . (Oh, water is stored . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh, eite garam hoy? Tahole to kono kathai nei. (Oh, this way it will be hot? That's fine.) Lady: Switch khule dilei hobe. (The switch is to be opened.) Lalitā Prasāda: Switch off kore de hya. (Switch off. Please turn the switch off.) Lady: Switch off. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Jal puro ache to? (The water is stored?) Boy: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Buro manuser janya byabasta rakhi. (Keep facilities for old people.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ami eikhane bolechi . . . (I have also told . . .) Prabhupāda: You also take bath? Devotees: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Then, kothay . . . (where . . .) Prabhupāda: Taken already. Gurudāsa: No. Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun, ei jaygay bollum . . . hatt. . . . gyan debe amake . . . (indistinct) . . . age mandire jal debo. Ekhon sei lokta . . . (indistinct) . . . choto kakar kache, se amar nam janta, oh oke age niye yan . . . (indistinct Bengali) (See, here I told . . . (indistinct) . . . first you go to the temple. Now that person . . . to my younger uncle, he knew my name . . .) Gurudāsa: That bathing ghat by Bhaktivinode's . . . Lady: Hya eikhane, Prabhu takhon aseni, ami pratham . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Yes here, Prabhu hasn't come 'till then, first I . . .) Devotee: Yeah, I'll show you the temple. Gurudāsa: All right. Devotee: I'll just take you to the . . . Lady: Ei Hari Das. (Hey Hari Das.) Hari Das: Ki? (What?) Lady: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: You know that I just did a round by the birth site. It was wonderful. Devotee: Around of . . . (indistinct) . . . of beads Gurudāsa: Beads. Now I'll do some film. Lady: Chele gulon ki dustu, dekhechen? Chele gulo dustu kato phal curi kore niye palacche. (Have you seen, the naughty boys are running away after stealing fruits.) Prabhupāda: Ki? (What?) Lalitā Prasāda: Chelegulo palacche. (The boys are fleeing.) *Lady: Chola*-tola jinis niye-tiye cole yacche. (Taking away chickpeas and other things.) Lalitā Prasāda: Amar chola sob curi korche . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Stealing all my chickpeas . . .) *Lady: Takhane ekdin ei, hariken, hariken, ami takhan eka, voger thala eiram niye harikenta hater bhetar dharbar o lok nai, ami to dhore upare yabo, bhog niteo hobe. Rattire eram kore. Tarpore, teler control hoye gelo, kerosen ar mele na. To mombati jvaliye chi. Mombati ke niye haoay baisak-jaista mase upore otha yay? To ki korbo, se mombati ba-hate dhore thala, bhoger thala eram kore niye yacchi, se bari te bolar lok o nei. Chat kore majh khane sirite, alota nive . . . mombati ta nive gelo, se cokhe ekta jol . . . thakur ami ki kore tomar ei thala ami niye yai, thakur tumi alor byabasta karo, amra to sudra jiv ki kore korbo? Amar, amar emon divya cokshu nai ye, ami niye yai, tai bole sei sirir pore bhoger thala niye amar cokhe jal ese gelo. Thik tar pore Prabhu aslo ar chay maser bhetarei . . . (Then one day, this hariken (lantern), I will show you, taking the bhoga plate like this, taking the hariken inside the arm. No one available to hold, if someone could hold the lantern to go upstairs, to take the bhoga . Like this at night time. Then one day Govt. controlled the fuel supply, kerosene was out of stock. So light up the candle. But what is the use of a candle in the high wind of April to May evening. What to do, by holding the candle in the left hand and the plate of bhoga in the other hand, I was going, no*-one was there to help. Then on the way in the stair the candle blew out. Tears came to my eyes, I said: "Oh my Lord how will I bring the bhoga plate to you now, please arrange for some light Lord. We are sudra jiva , how will I be able to do it? I don't have any divine vision that I can bring," while thinking like this, standing in the stair with the bhoga plate, tears came out from my eyes. The next year Prabhu came and within six months this . . .) Prabhupāda: Electric. Lady: Ei . . . ei, electric alo ese gelo . . . alor byabsta karo. Ta sei sange sange siri te alo deoa chilo, siri diye uthe . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Electric light came . . . arrange for light. There was some light in the stair, getting up the stair . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . be at home, bari. Kono lajja korben na, ya kichu lagbe bolben, tairi kore debo . . . (home. Don't feel shy, whatever you will ask anyone to do, they will do it.) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya . . . lajja kiser? (Oh yes, we won't feel shy.) Lalitā Prasāda: Be at home. . . be at home. Śyāmasundara: BH . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Be at home. Prabhupāda: Be at home. Śyāmasundara: be at home. Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: We're at home. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: We are at our father's house. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, apnara ekhane korle . . . very good park hobe. Ar ek khana gari dhuke yabe. Mone karun ei gaye only two hours, jor kore calale . . . (indistinct) . . . dui ghantay Calcutta pauche yaben. (If you could do it here . . . that would be a very good park. And cars also can be parked. From this village it will take only two hours, if you drive the car very fast . . . (indistinct) . . . in two hours time you will reach Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Besh. (Well.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekjan thakla ki na boye gelo. (It does not matter if one stays here or not.) Prabhupāda: Na, eikhane to amader antata dash jan lok thakbe, ar apnader lok ache. Anabarata utsab hobe, kirtan hobe, ei sob korbe. (Actually about ten of our people will be staying here, and your people are also there. There will be continuous festivals, kirtanas , all these will be.) Lalitā Prasāda: Beshi lok theke gele . . . (If many people stay . . .) *Lady: . . . ei ye badmais chele gulor ki abasta. Oi dekho, rekhe abar asche. Ekshoni niye yabe, oi ye aat*-dash ta, baro, baro atharo bayos, kuri bachorer chele gulo, ki atyacar kore . . . (just see the condition of these wicked boys. See, again they are coming. About eight to ten, grown up boys, eighteen to twenty years of age, they torture us a lot.) Prabhupāda: Ki niye geche? (What did they take away?) *Lady: Pacta dab gacher, ekta yodi thakurer bhog dite dey, ei dab kine ante hoy. Erakam abasta. Chata narkel gacher, ei dui bachor*-tin er modhye ektao thakur ke bhog dite dey na. (Amongst five of the coconut trees, we don't get even a single green coconut for offering bhoga to Lord, this green coconut we have to purchase, this is the condition. Six coconut trees there, within this two to three years not a single coconut we get to offer for bhoga to Lord.) Prabhupāda: Sob, bhadra loker chele sob cor hoye yacche . . . (Boy is from decent family has become a thief . . .) Lady: Ei sob, ar schooler chelera. (These are all, and some school boys are also there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sono, (Listen,) whole Bengal, whole. *Lady: Eikhane chola*-mator lagiyechi, dekhen ardhek chola sesh kore niye geche, gacher okhane gelei faka-faka. Mator guloto sobi niye geche. Sei alpo duto thakbe, rattire saat tar samay hariken dhare ami, duto gach, se tule niye geche. Rakhena . . . curi kore niye geche. Eiram abasta. (We did some chickpeas and yellow split peas plantation here, half of the chickpeas plants have been taken away, the land became empty. The yellow split peas have taken it all. There were few left. I went there at 7:00 pm at night with a hariken in my hand, and found that they have taken away those also. They never leave something for us . . . they steal always. This is the condition.) Lalitā Prasāda: Even a single, all bengal . . . (indistinct) . . . all are thieves, all are worse. Lady: Ei bel, bel ache bhalo . . . T(his wood apple, good wood apple . . . ) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Lady: Ei upadrabta bandha kara yacche na kichutei . . . (indistinct) . . . bera bhenge dhuke, oi kore dey. (These disturbances could not be stopped in any way. . . . (indistinct) . . . by breaking the border fence, and do this.) Prabhupāda: Sob yodi cor . . . thag bachte gao ujar. Tahole r ki kore ki hobe? (When everyone is a thief, you won't find an honest man in the village. Then how anything can happen.) Lady: Eito muskil. (That's the problem.) *Lalitā Prasāda: O niye kichu bhab bar nei, beshi lok hole, ora bhoy peye yabe. Yodi dash*-baro jan thake . . . (indistinct) . . . korlei ora paliye yabe. Cheler dal to . . . (No need to be worried, when there will be more people here, they will be afraid. When there will be ten to twelve people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will flee away. Just a group of young boys . . .) Devotee: Ektake dhore ene, yodi rakha yay ghare, baki sob palie yabe. (If any one of them can be caught and kept hold in a room, the rest of them will run away.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ami ekhone ekjon, dui*-ekjonke dhore anba ye, ei dol theke . . . ar amake keu manena. Oi pas diye lukiye, lukiye yay. Ami, ki ye bale, ei bol curi korbi chele? 'Tobe ektu na hoy korechi, schoole gechi, school kore gechi, schooler kaj baniyechi'. Ajke school name eschis, kothay school toder? (If I caught one or two of them from this group . . . but no one cares about me. They go from that side by hiding. If I ask, "Hey child tell me will you steal again?" They answer, "What happens if we have stolen a little thing, but we went to school, finished the classes, done our all home tasks." You came in the name of school, where is your school?) Prabhupāda: Kiser lekha para? Sob baje lekha para. (What education? All nonsense studies.) Lady: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ar ekhoni shikhchena. (They are learning nothing.) Prabhupāda: Cor, cor sob. (Thieves, all are thieves.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekebarei shikhchena. (Not learning at all.) Prabhupāda: Cor, bodmais. Esob Hari bha . . . Hari bhajan na korle, Hari bhakti na kore hoyeche. (All thieves and rascals. When Hari bhajan and Hari bhakti are not done, all these things happen.) Lady: Hya, erom hoy. (Yes, such things happen.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . . Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā ( SB 5.18.12) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: There's a place under this . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (reading newspaper) Ajker kagaje. (In today's newspaper.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Today's paper. Bengali devotee: Today's paper. Devotee: Bengali? Bengali devotee: Hya, Yes. You can't read. Lalitā Prasāda: Ei juta baire niye ya. (Take these shoes outside.) Lady: Gamcha ki debo? (Should we give you a gamcha ?) Madan: Gamcha dao to. (Give me the gamcha .) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Gamcha debo? Ei Madan. (Should we give you a gamchha ? Hey Madan.) Madan: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ekta gamcha ber kore dao. (Please bring one gamcha and give it.) Madan: Konta debo? (Which one to give?) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Russia, France ar Britain. Bharat, Pak sarasari alocana cay. (Russia, France and Britain. Wants a direct dialogue between India and Pakistan.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dupakshi? (Bilateral?) Bengali devotee: Dupakshi, hya dupakshi. (Bilateral, yes bilateral.) (break) A tide of discussion between India and Pakistan. Russia. Greece, France and Britain want. Jayapataka: Narikel tyal ache? (Do you have coconut oil?) Lalitā Prasāda: Narikel tel? (Coconut oil?) Jayapataka: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Ki ache maa . . . suneni. Maa, narkel tel. (Yes. Let me ask mother. Mother, coconut oil.) Jayapataka: Narkal tel . . . (The coconut oil . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, asun, (aside) bati kore dao. Dhele dile na? Maa ke balo na. (No, now use from this bowl. (aside) Please pour it, ask mother.) Bengali Devotee: Maa ke balo ekta bati . . . bati to chilo. Dekhi . . . (Ask mother to give a bowl . . . bowl was there. Let me check . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Jayapataka: Ei jinish kothay rakhbo? (Where should we keep these things?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? (What?) Boy: Dada, oder gharta khule de na. (Brother please open that room for them.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ei ghar khule dao na. Eikhane, (Yes, open that room please. In that room,) nobody will go. You keep the key. You keep the key. Lady: Ei ghar khule diye ay, khule diye ay . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Go and open the room) . . . (break) Śyāmasundara: Ah? Lalitā Prasāda: I get sun. Śyāmasundara: Sun. You are out for sun also? Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, I am leaving. Śyāmasundara: So you are leaving? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Okay. Lalitā Prasāda: I get sun . . . in the winter sun come, come . . . that way. Śyāmasundara: So you will move over and sit here? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. I always sit . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Ah . . . (indistinct Bengali) Lalitā Prasāda: That room. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: You're staying? Lady: Oi roome. In that room.) Śyāmasundara: We will sit there? Lalitā Prasāda: Nah. Bengali devotee: The room is. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . go with them. Śyāmasundara: That's all right I don't need to go anywhere. Lalitā Prasāda: You go, go with them. Bengali Devotee: You come with me. Lalitā Prasāda: There is another room. Śyāmasundara: All right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: Okay. (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Śyāmasundara: We want to walk. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . go there. Śyāmasundara: Okay, all right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Okay. Lalitā Prasāda: A guest. Śyāmasundara: We'll go see. Thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: Ar Bhaktivinod Thakurer hater lekha asirbad (The handwriting of Bhaktivinoda Thakur, it's a blessing . . .) . . . (indistinct Bengali). Jayapataka: Hya, amio porchi. (Yes, I too am reading.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayapataka: Amio porchi. (I am also reading.) Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinod eke ar oi amader Prabhupad ke khub bhalo basten. Ar ini choto chele, sneha ektu beshi hoy chotor opor. (Bhaktivinoda used to love our Prabhupada and him (Lalita Prasada) very much. And he is the youngest son, affection naturally grows more on the youngest.) (break) He looks like his father also. Śyāmasundara: His mother appears very beautiful also in those photos. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Shining face. That man is reading the newspaper to him. He will rest. Every day he gets all the news. Prabhupāda: This is the system, old aristocratic. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: Every old man should engage a man to read news. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Spread it. Śyāmasundara: On the ground? Prabhupāda: Yes. Watch the bottle. It will be dry within 10 minutes by the time I take my. Yadubara: I shouldn't wring that should I? *Prabhupāda: No, simply make this. Here that's all spread. Spread it that is sufficient. Hari*-nāma hari-nāma . It will be dry in 10 minutes. Yes he knows, that's it. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yadubara: Easy way to iron. Śyāmasundara: These are old temples? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: These are very old temples? Prabhupāda: Yes. At least 200 years. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Always they have worshipped Viṣṇu in this temple? Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to worship goddess Kali. Śyāmasundara: Oh, is that boy some relation? Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Just a friend. Society. A good boy. Prabhupāda: I have given him the suggestion the whole thing is solved in one minute. He also agrees. Śyāmasundara: Lease. Prabhupāda: Lease. Śyāmasundara: 99 years. Prabhupāda: That's it. Śyāmasundara: Not for proprietorship for development. Prabhupāda: What is the use of proprietorship? Śyāmasundara: What do we care? (laughs) Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: 99 years, our life, your life, your grand . . . your son's life . . . we have to give some service so long the body is there, otherwise what shall I do with the property? Everything will remain here. Śyāmasundara: He knows that you are in a position to develop it until some. Prabhupāda: Yes, 99. So one bucket cold water and one bucket hot water and one soap. Śyāmasundara: One hot and one cold . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda is a good massager. Śyāmasundara: Yes. How big is the property here? Does it extend around some distance? Prabhupāda: 20 bigas . Śyāmasundara: 20 bigas , oh that is large. Gurudāsa: Has he agreed to your proposals Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So we should get? Draw up some papers or? Prabhupāda: He'll do it. Śyāmasundara: He'll do it. Very nice. (laughs) So before you leave India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: All these things finished. (break) I was, I always used to dream that you would take us to these places. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: So we require a few cars from America. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Devotee: Jeeps. Śyāmasundara: I think heavy Jeeps. Prabhupāda: That is. Śyāmasundara: Cars like that rough. Devotee: Like UNICEF Jeeps. Śyāmasundara: Or Land Rovers. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So if there is bathroom? No? Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . and some more men also I think are required. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa they'll all come out. Gurudāsa: They won't come anyway. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: In Jagannath Purī also. (break) Devotee (2): In Jagannath Purī also. Gurudāsa: Dvārkādīśa, where the boats. Śyāmasundara: Where is Dvārakā dhāma . Devotee: Dvārakā dhāma . Gurudāsa: Dvārakā dhāma when we get some amphibious Kṛṣṇa conscious. Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . and was purchased by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura at Rs.150. Acyutānanda: All of it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Per biga? Prabhupāda: No, the whole plot. Acyutānanda: (laughs) Prabhupāda: That was 20 bigas. Śyāmasundara: In Māyāpur that man from the Caitanya Math has bought . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: That's about Rs.10. Less than Rs.10. (break) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . who had some excess money in hand. (break). After producing they want cash in their hand. The capitalist will take, hold it for some time naturally the price will increase and they will sell it. That system is still going on but it is very dangerously made. People do not bring out the commodity they simply speculate, "I purchased from you, you purchase it from me," so the goods are there and transaction is going on. I sell to you, you sell to him, you sell so on and people do not get the goods. There is scarcity and it is lying somewhere and the speculation is going on. Śyāmasundara: Somewhere else. Prabhupāda: Yes. And because the goods are not coming the market is increasing, you see. This rogueism is going on and there are so many banks although I have no money. Suppose I want to purchase one lakh worth of grains. Somehow or other if I have Rs.20,000 the bank will give me 80,000. So the market is increasing, I'm not selling and when it is to my full satisfaction I sell, I pay the banks money and take a large huge profit. This is going on, in every commodity. Things are not coming out it has become gold exchange. But they will sell just at the beginning of the next season. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise they will be put into knots. (break) Śyāmasundara: No, no as long as you are here I'm not afraid. Prabhupāda: Ah, the population has decreased. Śyāmasundara: They have driven them away. Or killed them. Prabhupāda: When there is . . . just like you do not go to the forest . . . (indistinct) . . . infested with many animals. Similarly they also do not come to the human society and the bigger population. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This is the safe, bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syād (SB 11.2.37), for forgetting Kṛṣṇa all the living entities they are afraid of one another. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That's all. They have forgotten that Kṛṣṇa is the centre he is our father. So there is no fear but that they have forgotten. Now, īśād apetasya viparyayo 'smṛtiḥ , they have forgotten that we are brothers. Therefore fight, we have got equal rights to enjoy the father's property but no, I am taking more you are starving, this is going on. Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all these questions. If everyone has got the right to enjoy father's property why one should take more? This is the best idea of communism, these things are there in Bhāgavata . Bhāgavata says whatever there is in the sky, whatever there is on the land and whatever there is on the water they belong to the Supreme Lord. So every living entity has the right to enjoy it as it is allotted by the Lord. This is Bhāgavata's contribution. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. In other words if a man is born a King he is allowed to enjoy like a King? Prabhupāda: Yes King is to manage these affairs. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: That everything is property of God, you are all sons of God. So King's business is to see that nobody is encroaching upon other's property. Nobody is fighting and he equally distributes the produce, that is the King's duty. He has to see that whether brahmin's are executing their duty, kṣatriya's , vaiśyas according to our division, this is King's duty. To make him Kṛṣṇa conscious but King is simply interested with the tax. No education, so*-called King, then King is finished, now the people have taken in the name of people's government but it is an oligarch. *It is for the interests of a few men and all of them rogues and thieves just like Gandhi started indigenous manufacture. Buy sell car, manufacturing one's own cloth, now that became a show and the government started big big factories owned by capitalists. So Britishers were taking one rupee and eight annas per pair and they are now taking twenty*-one rupees eight annas. Twenty times increase, government does not say anything because they are getting tax in different ways, excise tax, sales tax, income tax and the tax is distributed amongst the government servants. People do not get any benefit. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: 20% from the tax collected, they distribute for the people's welfare and 80% they divided, divided by the governors, rastrapatis, secretaries and government servants—this is the position. One side the capitalist is exploiting and the government is taking tax from them and government means a few men they are enjoying, that's it. This is all over the world I can see, and they want that the people should be engaged in fighting in the name of nationalism and they will enjoy that's all. They have no good idea for the betterment of the position of the citizens. What we are doing every government should have done it—Kṛṣṇa consciousness but the rascals they simply plunder the citizens and enjoy. Wine women and flesh—this is the position. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . there are mlecchas and taking the dress of the King, killing the whole world. (break). Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . foundation, foundation age, foundation korte khub beshi deri korte hobe na, ekhane ek khana foundation korlei building hote parbe, kintu America . . . ei iye . . . Mayapure amar bisvas nei. Kondin ki hobe sunle, uriye debe sob (first foundation, you shouldn't be late to make foundation, just foundation for a single story structure will be ok to make the building, but in Māyāpur I don't have faith. It's full of uncertainty, they will blow away everything . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Mahaprabhu yakhan sannyas niye chilen. (Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa then.) Lalitā Prasāda: Mahaprabhur sannyaser chay bachor por . . . (Six years after Mahāprabhu took sannyāsa . . .) (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . tai, sholo bachor ar panera bachor, kato? Sholo ar panera diye ekatrish bachor, takhan Mahaprabhu dakshiner dik ghure esche, ekatrish bachore, abar Shantipur chilo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (so here sixteen years and fifteen years, how much, total thirty one years, then Mahāprabhu returned from his trip to south india, at thirty one year, that time from Shantipur . . .) 12 lakhs of Nadia and all under the . . . (indistinct) . . . and you are putting a temple on that land or nice, (below,) that is river bed. That's why I suggest. Below you, take the site, active site. Tar modhye theke bili korte hobe. (Even then also, you have to distribute from there.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . start by . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Amar, amar, amar ya experience ache. (Mine, mine, mine experience is like this.) Prabhupāda: Otherwise there is meeting 4 o'clock? Śyāmasundara: Not today. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Not today tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Not tomorrow. The press reporter? Śyāmasundara: Oh is there a press meeting? Gurudāsa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: The press reporters from Navadvīpa will come. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: After four. So we must reach there by five, it will take 2 ½ hours. So by half past two we must get out. Lalitā Prasāda: Half past two to kam hoy, two er pore yaba yakhan darkar hoy. (Half past two is not sufficient, better to leave after two.) Prabhupāda: Let us . . . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Damodarer prasad dile . . . ekhon to amra ready. (What about Damodar's prasādam , we are ready now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eito hoye yabe. (aside) Ya na ekhan theke, cole ya . . . (It's almost done. (aside) You go from here, go away . . .) Śyāmasundara: So at about 2 o'clock I will begin working on the car and try to make that horn work. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Without horn, not possible? Śyāmasundara: No, well we can do that again. (laughs) Prabhupāda: What's wrong with that? Śyāmasundara: It's dangerous. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell, ringing a bell. Śyāmasundara: Dinner plate. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Hanging bell Ghanta. (Gong.) Śyāmasundara: No Prabhupāda's plate. You know plate? Brass plate. Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Bell we use that. Śyāmasundara: Oh Yeah (laughs). Lalitā Prasāda: Bell. Ding dong bell. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Gurudāsa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. ( Japa ) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) (break) (Prabhupāda's recording Bengali conversation) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Oh Hari Das . . . Oh Hari . . . Ki holo? (What's the status?) Hari: Hya, baba hocche. (It's underway.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog utheche? (Has the bhoga offerings done?) Hari: Hya, bhog uthbe ekhoni. (Yes, almost over. It will be taken out.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh Uthbe ekhoni. (All right. Oh will be taken out now. All right) . . . light lagche? Casma . . . (light is there, eyeglass . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, casma na . . . (No, no eyeglass . . .) (break) na amar casma ache. (I have my eyeglass.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, taito bolchi. Dan coktay ekdom dekhte paina, ba cokta alpo. (Yes, that's what I am telling. Right eye has no vision, left eye has little.) Sideways, side view . . . kaj sere ni . . . (can do my work . . .) Śyāmasundara: Only from the side? Lalitā Prasāda: All back. Śyāmasundara: Only from the side? Lalitā Prasāda: On, on that. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: This side. Śyāmasundara: Left side? Lalitā Prasāda: Left side . . . (indistinct) . . . for me heavy. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Ah . . . no eyeglasses? Lalitā Prasāda: Eyeglasses. I do use, but this is of, onto. Coming cataract. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Full of cataract. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: See here, I can swap. This you can check. This side I can see. *Śyāmasundara: Ah . . . one eye is better than no. A one*-eyed uncle is better than no uncle. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . this eye I had no view . . . (indistinct) . . . I want that operate. I want a doctor to test my eye. Well life is shortened that way. Life is shortened. Devotees: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: If I operate and remove the cataract life will be shortened. Gurudāsa: Oh yes, yes. Lalitā Prasāda: The affect on the whole system. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes that's a fact. Lalitā Prasāda: And even if I live for 100 years you, you, you have to die 40 years ago, or before . . . (indistinct) . . . any operation lessens the longevity of life. Gurudāsa: Yes yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Longevity. Gurudāsa: Longevity of life. Because then something else has to replace that . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Blood circulation stopped and there . . . (indistinct) . . . you are now young men When you will be old, you will understand the difficulty . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: The . . . (indistinct) . . . strengths are diminished. Diminished. Śyāmasundara: Hmm . . . but when you are speaking on religious subjects then your strength comes out? Lalitā Prasāda: Beg your pardon? Śyāmasundara: You said that when you are speaking on religious subjects then your strength comes out. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes, yes, yes. On religious, I don't see any difficulty. A strength of joy up heaven. God sends His, I don't know. Amra ei bar, ei bangaly korechilam, ei ye banglay korechilam . . . onek . . . (indistinct) . . . ek ekjan bole amra diye yabo . . . amra diye yabo . . . (indistinct) (laughs) . . . lokgulo dustu. (Once we did the Bengali version of it, did it in Bengali . . . many . . . (indistinct) . . . people said we will return you back . . . will return you back . . . (indistinct) (laughs) . . . naughty people.) The very people who sing the name of God and know what is holy. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: They're servants of māyā . Gurudāsa: Servants of māyā . Lalitā Prasāda: The illusory energy, I call. Illusory energy. Illusion. Gurudāsa: Yes illusion. Lalitā Prasāda: Illusory energy is māyās shakti . Illusory energy. Have you bed? Bedding? Śyāmasundara: Bedding? Yes they are in Māyāpur. Lalitā Prasāda: In Māyāpur in the early morning. Śyāmasundara: In our camp. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . another morning at Ganges. (gong sounds) Śyāmasundara: Yes we go bathing there. *Lalitā Prasāda: That was the original coast, 400 years ago, the original coast was . . . (indistinct) . . . jan*-nagar straight to the north, up to . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm . . . up to Gandhinagar. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Lalitā Prasāda: . . . jan*-nagar. And Ganga nagar it tries to, Took turn . . . and then it changed towards South. Towards East and then it goes a bit further, and that was the position which were once . . . 400 years ago, 500 years ago . . . (indistinct) . . . when Māyāpur was discovered again, Ṭhākura expressed. But again that stopped, the course have taken another way, by Ramchandrapur's other side, other end . . . (indistinct) . . . I have already written a small narratori how the Ganges shifted from one side to another . . . (indistinct) . . . about twenty miles Ganges shifted than there . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. 20 miles? Lalitā Prasāda: Bangladesh and Māyāpur. And there are 12 lakhs of people on the mainland where you are now building this thing. Śyāmasundara: Hmm? 12 lakhs ? Lalitā Prasāda: 12 lakhs . Now . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Biggest temple in Bengal. We are rising. Lalitā Prasāda: That will be. Śyāmasundara: Yes. One of the biggest in India. Lalitā Prasāda: And, that is declared. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Longest. Longest. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Tallest. Lalitā Prasāda: Longest. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: 200 feet in Bengal there is no higher than this. Jagannath temple near . . . (indistinct) . . . Jagannath Purī that is 108 feet high. Śyāmasundara: 180? Lalitā Prasāda: Twelve thousand, twelve thousand twenty eight, two hundred ten . . . (indistinct) . . . here, here in this picture. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: You know this? Gurudāsa: Yes in Orissa. Lalitā Prasāda: Orissa. Śyāmasundara: In San Francisco California we have New Jagannath Purī. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh yes. Śyāmasundara: In San Francisco. Lalitā Prasāda: At San Francisco. *Śyāmasundara: And we have every year a big Ratha*-yātrā. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes flyer I've seen. Śyāmasundara: You've seen picture? Lalitā Prasāda: I've seen a picture. *Śyāmasundara: (laughs) And in London also Ratha*-yātrā. Lalitā Prasāda: Very good. In London her Majesty should join the Ratha. I think there is a picture. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Candra eh? Śyāmasundara: I think we have now six temples in England. Lalitā Prasāda: Six? Śyāmasundara: Six temples in England. Lalitā Prasāda: One in eh? Śyāmasundara: London, Birmingham. Lalitā Prasāda: Birmingham. Śyāmasundara: Manchester. Lalitā Prasāda: Manchester. Śyāmasundara: Cardiff. Lalitā Prasāda: Cardiff. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Gurudāsa: Edinburgh. Śyāmasundara: Edinburgh. Lalitā Prasāda: Edinburgh? Śyāmasundara: Scotland and Dublin. Lalitā Prasāda: Edinburgh, Dublin? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Ireland and Scotland. Śyāmasundara: Yes Ireland and Scotland. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes all right . . . *Gurudāsa: (sings along with kīrtana in background) bhaja bhakata*-vatsala śrī-gaurahari . Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. In London there are two classes of men. One . . . (indistinct) . . . in Ireland and another . . . (indistinct) . . . Irish in England? Śyāmasundara: In London? Lalitā Prasāda: London, no Ireland. Śyāmasundara: Ireland. Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Ireland is something independent? Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Not under the British rule? Śyāmasundara: No. British have lost their rule everywhere. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes everywhere yes Americans have . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Because they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they will be saved, America. Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: America is now taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in America . . . Lalitā Prasāda: New York? Śyāmasundara: Everywhere. America is taking to this Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. Lalitā Prasāda: Simple. Śyāmasundara: Simple. Lalitā Prasāda: America . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: No. Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: In all the states? Śyāmasundara: All the big cities. Lalitā Prasāda: All the states? Śyāmasundara: over 60 temples in America. Established by Prabhupāda. Lalitā Prasāda: In the States, where the states? United States of America. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Every big city, one big big temple. Lalitā Prasāda: And everyday pūjā is done. Śyāmasundara: Throughout the day. Lalitā Prasāda: Worshiping done. Eh. Śyāmasundara: All through, starting. Maṅgala-ārati starts 4 o'clock. maṅgala-ārati , maṅgala-ārati 4 o'clock. Lalitā Prasāda: 4 o'clock. Śyāmasundara: Morning. Lalitā Prasāda: Morning. Śyāmasundara: Going up to sundara-ārati 9 o'clock at night. And throughout the day at least 10, 12 ārati. 10 or 12 times, prasādam is offered, ārati. Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog bhog . Śyāmasundara: Bhog . Lalitā Prasāda: Bhog . Oh, aloo bhajche? Bolna. (Hey, are they frying potatoes? Please tell me.) Bengali Devotee: Hya, aloo bhajche. (Yes frying potatoes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Yan na, yan na apnara. (You all can now go there, please go) . . . you go, yan . . . (please go.) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: You go, some of you go. Yan na. (Please go) . . . (indistinct) . . . opore, opore yan. (Upstairs, please go upstairs.) Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Mṛdaṅga. Get mṛdaṅga there . . . (indistinct) . . . mrdanga bajabar lok kam. (Not many mṛdaṅga players today.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ajke mṛdaṅga bajanor lok kam. (Not many mṛdaṅga players today.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kakhana kakhana dhile hoye yay. (Sometimes these get loosened.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, amader ekhane dheke ni. Tabe bajale khub bhalo, khub . . . (No, here we keep them covered. When they play, very good . . .) (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Bangladeshta baddo patan hoye geche. (Bangladesh has now degraded too much.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, ek bare, ek bare, ek bare. (Yes, very true, very true, very true.) Prabhupāda: Ora rakshas hoye geche. (They have become like monsters.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sakale bole ami bhagavan . . . bhagavan kotha theke tumi . . . (indistinct) . . . bhagavan pabi kothyeke? . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Everybody says that I am God . . . how can you be God . . . (indistinct) . . . how will you get God . . .) Śyāmasundara: You don't eat? Lalitā Prasāda: By the grace of God. One may get some milk . . . (indistinct) . . . five years . . . they are bhaktas they can approach to Godhead. (indistinct) . . . (shouts) Ora ki korche? Ki korche? Son na. Ya, paliye ya. Ei . . . ei jalatan koris na. Bari ya. (laughs) Badarer dol. (What are they doing? What are they doing? Come here. Go, all get lost. Don't disturb us here. Go home. (laughs) All are monkeys.) They are like monkeys. Śyāmasundara: Monkeys? Lalitā Prasāda: These boys are like monkeys. (laughs) Ke Hari Das? Tariye diye ay na sob kota ke. (Is it Hari das? Just drive them all out.) Hari das: Cole geche. (They have gone.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, lock diye cole ay . . . (indistinct) . . . ora sob khabe, bel khabe, kul khabe, e khabe . . . (Yes, you come inside and close the gate. They will eat all the fruits, they will eat wood*-apple, berries, these and that . . .) *Prabhupāda: Am*-tam hole sob niye yay ora? (Mango and other fruits they take all?) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, oi am tole. Ami sei jonye am gulo bikr kore di . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes, eat mangoes. That's why we sell the mangoes . . .) Prabhupāda: Ki sob lok hoye geche. (What people have become now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ta pore gelo amader kapal, oder yodi pore yay takhan amader loksan hobe, bhalo to hobe. Amra ki korbo . . . Raghaber jonye . . . (indistinct) . . . bajare . . . (indistinct) . . . Raghab sob jane . . . (indistinct) . . . amrai raksha korbo, apni byasta hoben na. Ami lok . . . lok lagiye raksha korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . am niye paliye yabe, kaca am niye . . . (indistinct) . . . hya sob karbo, kintu moteo sob kore na . . . (indistinct) . . . ki bolbo apnake, eikhane ek bachor hoyeche, ki abasta. Ami sudhu ei gram ti tairi korechi, Nagen babu cole yabar por dash bachor, amader hate chay bachor rakha chilo, ekti lok chilona ye raksha kore . . . (indistinct) . . . se amake jor eram kore haat dhore bolbe, apni age basun, ar ei chairman hon . . . (indistinct) . . . kore diye, bole apni ei raksha korun . . . (indistinct) . . . lok khepe gelo . . . dui hajar sai hoye gelo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (They said like that, now it's our luck. If taken like this, then we will suffer loss, otherwise it may be good. What can we do . . . for Raghab only . . . (indistinct) . . . in the market, Raghab knows it all . . . (indistinct) . . . said we will protect, you please don't worry. I will protect with my people . . . (indistinct) . . . they will flee with the unripe mangoes . . . (indistinct) . . . they say they will do, but actually they don't do all that is needed . . . (indistinct) . . . what to say to you, about the situation here since one year. I just helped to make this village, after leaving of Nagen babu, ten years back from today, six years we manage, no one was here to protect . . . (indistinct) . . . one day he caught my hand and said you please be the chairman . . . (indistinct) . . . after doing that, said now you protect this . . . people got agitated . . . two thousand signatures collected . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Dui hajar jan soi kore dile hoye gelo, municipality mitiye yak. (Two thousand signatures are done, let the municipality be dismantled.) Prabhupāda: Ki mitiye debe? (What to dismantle?) Lalitā Prasāda: Municipality. Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . municipality . . . (indistinct) Lady: Bhaktader ke prasad debo? (Should we serve prasadam to the devotees now?) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (to Lady) Maa onra bolechen, amra dutor age cole yabo. Prasad peye ektu jiriye . . . (They are saying that before 2:00 pm they will leave. After taking Prasadam little rest . . .) Lady: It's ready. Hoye geche to sob. Bhog uthe geche, ami pata ketechi. Oke bollam dhuye ene dite. (All are done. Offering bhoga is also done, I have cut the leaf, and ask him to wash.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . aj dekhen sei municipality royeche (. . . just see that the municipality is still there 'till this date.) Prabhupāda: Amra prasad peye ni. (Let us take prasadam .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Kato kasto korechi ei gulor jonya, onek kasto korechi ami. (Yes. I have taken a lot of trouble for that, a lot of trouble I have taken.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . let us go . . . call them. Śyāmasundara: We are going now? Prabhupāda: No. Then later. Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, era dujon naki khaben na, phal khaben. (Came to know that two people will not take lunch, they will be taking fruit instead.) Who are two? You will not . . . take lunch? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: Some, some of . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh yes there is one boy he has jaundice. One boy. Lalitā Prasāda: Take fruit juice? Śyāmasundara: Only fruits, fruits, that's all. I think he takes. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . that is the difficulty. Śyāmasundara: At this time of year? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. However whatever I got, I have done it. Śyāmasundara: Ah. (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . you go. Śyāmasundara: All right. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . break it, these are costly things very costly. Śyāmasundara: About Rs.1000. Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Rs.1000 Lalitā Prasāda: 1000, oh. You can . . . (indistinct) . . . bad work there is. Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work . . . Śyāmasundara: Where? Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work. Śyāmasundara: Bad work. Lalitā Prasāda: Bad work. Śyāmasundara: Bad work. Lalitā Prasāda: Work Śyāmasundara: Ah. (referring to bad workmanship in the house and advising to beware) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . earn the money. Śyāmasundara: Ah. But on good work, nothing. About one rupee. Lalitā Prasāda: Take it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Onara upare gechen, upar theke neme tarpore . . . (They have gone upstairs, after coming down . . .) Śyāmasundara: Oh, he will, I will. I would like to bring my wife and my child everybody in . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Everybody, who will be everybody? Śyāmasundara: Well maybe? How long it takes by train to come here? How long by train to come here? Lalitā Prasāda: Ah. Two hours. Śyāmasundara: Two hours by train from Māyāpur, from Navadvīpa? Lalitā Prasāda: Navadvīpa by train . . . (indistinct) . . . 20 minutes. Śyāmasundara: 20 minutes? Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . is five minutes. 10 miles from this place. Śyāmasundara: From here to Navadvīpa? *Lalitā Prasāda: Here to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. 10 miles. *Śyāmasundara: Kṛṣṇa*-nagar? Ah. *Lalitā Prasāda: Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. Kṛṣṇa-nagar to Māyāpur is 8 miles. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . ah. I see in total 18 miles. Yeah. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . straight, Māyāpur. Śyāmasundara: Okay. Yeah. *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . not long distance . . . (indistinct) . . . you go to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar, then you go to launch ghat , then you go to Māyāpur . . . *Śyāmasundara: So from here there is train direct to Kṛṣṇa*-nagar. Lalitā Prasāda: If you go . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah straight. Lalitā Prasāda: Straight, you make a straight line. Śyāmasundara: Yeah (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Dako. (Call them.) Bengali Devotee: Aschen, onara aahnik korchen, aste pabe na. (They will come, now they are doing prayers, can't come now.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Onara bisram korben. (They will take rest.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ke? (Who?) Bengali Devotee: Guru Mahārāja. Lalitā Prasāda: Kothay? (Where?) Bengali Devotee: Oi ghare. (In that room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon ghare? (Which room?) Bengali Devotee: Parar ghare. (Reading room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Parar ghare royeche? (Are they in the reading room now?) Bengali Devotee: Na, kheye deye tarpor . . . (No, after taking lunch they will . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Prasad pacchen. (Having prasadam .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Maharaj khacche? (Is Mahārāja eating?) Bengali Devotee: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Okay we will go. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) (kīrtana in background) (indistinct) . . . ei, shon na, oder niye ay, oder basiye de, khabar hoye geche . . . (indistinct) . . . bujhli . . . (hey, bring them, make them sit there, food is ready . . . (indistinct) . . . have you understood . . .) Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Lalitā Prasāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . what you want somebody comes? Śyāmasundara: Eh? Lalitā Prasāda: You want . . . (indistinct) . . . comes? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Apni . . . (indistinct) . . . bhijiye niye asi. (You will . . . (indistinct) . . . let me bring it after soaking.) Lalitā Prasāda: Alpo kore niye ne, baire, bhijiye na, jal kharap hoye yabe, ekta mage kore niye dhuye dao, mage . . . mage dhuba, ek mag jal niye yaba, bujhle . . . (Take a little bit, outside, don't by putting it in the water, then water will become bad, take in a mug and wash it, mug . . . mug wash in the mug, go with a mug of water, understood . . .) (indistinct Bengali conversation) Bengali Devotee: Apnar khaoa hoye . . . onar khaoar age apnar khaoa hoye yabe . . . hm khub slow . . . (Your lunch will be over before him . . . hmm very slow . . .) (indistinct Bengali conversation) Bengali Devotee: Ei ye, apnar ei album theke onek photo kom kore dite hobe . . . mane album theke . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer. (Have to reduce some photos from your album . . . album . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei . . . ei bengal, photo ta niye aso . . . ki likhbe? . . . (indistinct) . . . lekho. (Please bring the photo of Bengal . . . what will you write? . . . (indistinct) . . . write.) (break) Gurudāsa: Passport? Lalitā Prasāda: Passport . . . in all the world. Gurudāsa: In what year? Lalitā Prasāda: 38. Gurudāsa: 38. Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: When I retired from service. Gurudāsa: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Just I asked my officer to give me a passport. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: It took me only five minutes. Gurudāsa: Five minutes? Lalitā Prasāda: Jawaharlal Nehru gave me a passport. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: He took 5 minutes, I offer you, six, there was six also to get passport and I only got it within two minutes, five minutes. The passport officer there assistant in charge, he was astonished, "How could he issue?" But you're officer is my officer. Gurudāsa: (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Here find everywhere, oh. And he came . . . (indistinct) . . . to get the passport to a seat . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Jaya. Lalitā Prasāda: That passport is still with me. Little things . . . (indistinct) . . . I couldn't go very early. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: My health is permitting. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: I present you God's position (laughs) I got ill . . . sick. Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: So I haven't done that. Because my father that Bhaktivinoda told me, "You do not go out of India." Gurudāsa: Oh he told you? Lalitā Prasāda: Still I could go . . . (indistinct) . . . got the passport. Gurudāsa: Oh still that is . . . then you got ill. Lalitā Prasāda: Yes and his wish must be fulfilled. So I got a little. Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: I couldn't move. Gurudāsa: Haribol. Lalitā Prasāda: Bhaktivinoda Thakur's wish, how can I disobey? Gurudāsa: Yes. Impossible. Lalitā Prasāda: Though I tried to do it. But. Gurudāsa: Impossible. Lalitā Prasāda: And his wish is on him. Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: And they have come and brought you. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes… Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . I rented, I rented just as . . . but (break) I rented, I rented . . . but in Bengali . . . Gurubandana . . . you don't do read Bengali otherwise I would have shown you . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Oh. Lalitā Prasāda: He very glad to see me. Number of issues . . . ora ekta kagaj ber korto . . . (they used to publish one paper . . .) issue, issue, second issue . . .ar baki ekti, sob complete ache, oi padya gulo (. . . rest all have complete, that poetry.) Prabhupāda: Ah. Lalitā Prasāda: Bangla, bangla padya, bhalo laglo? (Bengali, Bengali poetry, did you like it?) Prabhupāda: Besh sundar, ati sundar. (Very nice, excellent.) (break) Lalitā Prasāda: Onek bachor kore, ar noy . . . ei ye Uniso tirish sale, ekattiris sale, bujhlen? (For many years . . . in those days from 1930 or 31, do you know?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: Ekattiris sale. (Of the year 1931.) Prabhupāda: Ekattiris sal. Onek din age. (1931. Many days ago.) Lalitā Prasāda: Baba bar korto, ei kagaj khan ber korto. Takhan, dada bolle . . . dekhun . . . bolle amar kshati hocche, mejh di ke bollen. Ami bollam, tumi yodi erokom korbe . . . ami ki korbo cup kore lukiye roilum . . . (indistinct) . . . amar kshati hocche. Ami kshati korchi? Dao bandha kore dao . . . (indistinct) . . . elo sob kagaj patra niye . . . ya kichu niye cole gelo. Oi sob rekhe diyeche. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . sobta dini, namtao railo . . . (indistinct) . . . ekhono korto, ami korchi na, pacjan sange nei bole. Ar ami ek bachor ber korechi. Oder noa da bolle, lobhe amar kshati korchi. Ami bollam, ami kshati korlam dadar? Ami bhalo katha bolchi loke . . . kshatita ki korlam? Na loke ar paisa debe na oke. Paisa to ami cai na, yodi kshati hoy, ami kshati korbo na. Paisa . . . ami kshati korbo na. Kaj bandha, noile kaj . . . ajke ami likhle kato jinish beroto . . . (Father used to publish this paper. Then . . . brother said that I am incurring loss, he said this to my middle sister. I said if you say like this . . . I silently hid myself . . . (indistinct) . . . I am incurring loss. Is it me who is causing this loss, then close it . . . . (indistinct) . . . then they came and took away all the papers and documents. All were kept. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . didn't give the ownership, the name is also retained . . . (indistinct) . . . not starting it now as I don't have any companion, because I have no people. I published it for one year. Noa da (one of the elder brothers) said to them that I am causing him monetary loss by my greed. I said, am I causing loss to my elder brother. I was telling good words but people . . . . what loss did I incurred? That no one will pay him again. I didn't want money . . . I will not make a loss. Money . . . will not make any loss. Work stopped, but if I could have been writing then many things could be published today.) Prabhupāda: Ekhan oi amader sei Gosvami Maharaj din `kato caliyechen. (Now that Goswami Mahārāja ran for few days.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Yatai karun dekhun . . . thik yatai koruk, direct tar . . . Srila Bhaktivinod Thakurer mukh theke tar . . . (indistinct) . . . tar bhab bhangi, tar balbar iye . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhen ni. Ekhene . . . ei . . . oi saheb ra esechilo onno khub baro baro, chobi dui*-ek khana chilo na. Sei number, saat numbere, ogulo . . . baki gulo korechi, tin bachor korechi. Ei sob bhanga, dekhun, eikhane sob bhanga kicchu nei, ei darja, jalna parjanta . . . (indistinct) . . . ekta darja chilo na, ekta kori chilo na. Kori kine ene pariyechi. (Whatever you may do, hearing directly from . . . Srila BhaktiVinoda Thakura's mouth of his . . . (indistinct) . . . his emotions and bodily postures . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not seen that. Here . . . in this place . . . once some great Britishers have come and one or two pictures of them were there. All those and the other seven I rescued, did it for three years there. All broken, see, all are broken here, nothing intact, from this door to windows . . . (indistinct) . . . not a single door was there, no frame. I bought and fitted it.) Prabhupāda: Sob niye geche. (All taken away.) Lalitā Prasāda: Egulo sob bhanga . . . (indistinct) . . . chad pore geche, ekhene du manus garta, ek manus du manus garta . . . (indistinct) . . . tarpor ekhene baro, baro gach chilo, sei gach guloke fello erom kore, oi . . . oi beray giye daram kore porlo. Bat gach, Asathya gach. (These are all broken . . . (indistinct) . . . the roof collapsed, here big holes with the depth of about one to two men height . . . (indistinct) . . . then there were big big trees, those trees removed like in this way that, those fall down with a sound over the wall. Banyan tree, Peepal tree.) Prabhupāda: Eto baro gach. (Such big trees.) Lalitā Prasāda: Eto baro gach. Sei chobi . . . kothay ekhon ber korte parbo na . . . (indistinct) . . . ber kore rakhbo ek samay, dekhben kiram gach chilo oi gulo. Eguloy bahu taka kharca hoyeche, ei gulo uddhar korte, mandirke tairi korte. Ekta kac chilo na, kac ekhana chilo na, ekta jalna darja chilo na, sob fak, ekhaneo fak . . . (Such big trees. Picture . . . don't know where it is now . . . will find out sometime later, see yourself what type of trees were those. Huge amount of money spent to renovate and build the temple. Not a single piece of glass was there, nor door and windows, all open spaces here and there . . .) Prabhupāda: Onekdin khali porechilo. (It was abandoned for many days.) Lalitā Prasāda: Saat bachchar. Bagh thakto. (Seven years. Tigers used to stay.) Prabhupāda: Bagh thakto. (Tigers used to stay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ami onek bachchar korechi, kintu parisodh deoar lok chilo na. Apni bolechilen dekhben, amar baro ananda hocchilo, apnara yodi korben didha nei . . . (indistinct) . . . sarthak holo . . . (I worked very hard, but no one was there to reciprocate. I was feeling very glad when you were telling what you see, if you do something here then I have no hesitation . . . (indistinct) . . . would be successful.) Prabhupāda: Sotti, ar era sob dekhbe. (That's true, they will look after.) Lalitā Prasāda: Era yodi bangla sikhe, tahole to hobe. (It will be very good if they can learn Bengali.) Prabhupāda: Bangla sikhche, oi ye Acyutananda . . . (Learning Bengali, that Acyutananda . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Acyut khub sikhche. Acyut khub sikhche. (Acyut learned very nicely, Acyut learned very nicely.) Prabhupāda: Give me water, cold water. Lalitā Prasāda: Cold water. Oh. Hari Das. Hari. (Ah. Hari Das. Harii.) Hari: Aschi. (Coming.) Lalitā Prasāda: Cold water dao, thanda jal. (Give cold water. Cold water.) Śyāmasundara: Cold water? Lalitā Prasāda: Onek din dhore, bujhlen, ami ki korbo? Ami boka lok, cup kore pore thaki, ami . . . (For many days, you see, for many days . . . what should I do, I am a foolish man, just remain seated silently, I . . .) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . oi thik ache. Amaderke odik ta lease diye den . . . (That's appropriate. Just give us a lease for that side . . .) *Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, apni jagater loker eto upokar korchen, ye ami r parlum na, ami khali dui*-ek khan chele rekhechilam . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhaktivinoder katha uni sob guloi bole gelen, r baki yodi kichu thake amar mukhe sikhiyechen tai . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes, you are doing good for all the world, I couldn't refuse, I just kept two or three boys . . . (indistinct) . . . the teaching of Bhaktivinoda all were spread by him (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura), and remain part which were taught me, that . . .) taking notes (laugh) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . bollen tomader keu philosophy porbe. . . . (indistinct) . . . Stever . . . (indistinct) . . . amake dekhate parbe college? . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhalum . . . bollen . . . bollen nah, cheleta kichu sikheche bote, ta ei sampurna bangla ekhono bujhte pareni, kichu sikheche . . . (said who teaches you philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . Steve . . . (indistinct) . . . will you show me once in the college . . . so I showed him . . . then he said the man has learned something for sure but complete Bengali will not yet understand, have learnt something) (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Edike kar photo eta? (Whose photo is this, here at this side?) *Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo amar photo, onek bachor ager, takhon choto chilam mota chilum. Dos bachor, egaro bachor ager . . . panero bachor ager kar photo. Tabe Bhaktivinod Thakurer chobi ei suit case rekhechi . . . (indistinct) . . . kalke . . . (It's my photo, many years ago, then my body was bulky. About ten*-eleven or fifteen years, many years ago. But I kept Bhaktivinoda Tahkura's photo here in this suitcase . . . (indistinct) . . . tomorrow . . .) Gurudāsa: You also photographed that portrait? Lalitā Prasāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: You also photographed that portrait? Lalitā Prasāda: Fo . . .? Gurudāsa: That famous photo. Lalitā Prasāda: Photo? Gurudāsa: You photograph that one? Lalitā Prasāda: You like photography? Gurudāsa: Acha, that one is famous all around the world. Lalitā Prasāda: All over the world. Gurudāsa: All over the world. Lalitā Prasāda: That photo was framed by me, originally. You saw in the album? Gurudāsa: Yes. Lalitā Prasāda: That was very photo. Gurudāsa: But this one especially. Yadubara: He has that on the album also. Gurudāsa: It is very famous . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Tinte camera enechilo bidesh theke. Ekta nilo Pradyutma, ar ekta nilo iye . . . Kasim Alir chele. (Received three cameras from foreign. One taken by Pradyutma, another taken by the son of . . . the son of Kasim Ali.) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Lalitā Prasāda: Tinte photographer . . . (indistinct) . . . ekta nile Pradyutma, ekta Kasim Alir chele, Mahindra . . . chele ekta kinle, ar ami ekta kinlum . . . (indistinct) . . . khub first class . . . (indistinct) . . . r sei camera diye onek gulo chobi tulechilum. (Three photographers . . . (indistinct) . . . Pradyutma took one, the son of Kasim Ali, Mahindra . . . son got one, and I got one . . . (indistinct) . . . very good, first class . . . with that camera I took many pictures.) Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: You can ask Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Prabhupāda? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . yato Kolkatar bhadralok chilo, sob ami . . . (indistinct) . . . niye gechilam, ye baba colegelen, ei amar dada achen . . . (indistinct) . . . collis taka kore bari bhara korlum oi Halsibagane . . . (indistinct) . . . Mayapur theke . . . (indistinct) . . . kole bose . . . (indistinct) . . . gari kore kore loker . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . whoever notable gentleman was there at Kolkata, everyone came . . . (indistinct) . . . took him, father passed away, my elder brother is here . . . (indistinct) . . . rented a house for 40 rupees at Halsibagan. From Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . by sitting on lap . . . (indistinct) . . . everyday people used to take him by their car . . .) Prabhupāda: Oi Mayapure? (At Māyāpur?) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, ei Calcuttay, niye giye, sadharan lok, baroloker sathe alap korato. (No, at Calcutta, they used to take. Common people, got to know a few gentlemen.) Prabhupāda: Calcuttay kothay chilen takhon? (Where at Calcutta you used to stay then?) Lalitā Prasāda: Oi Halsibagane . . . bari korechilam bharay, collis taka bhara diye. (At Halsibagan . . . took a house with 40 rupees rent.) Prabhupāda: Konkhanta? (Which area?) Lalitā Prasāda: Halsibagan. Prabhupāda: Halsibagan, hya okhaneto amio gechi. (Halsibagan, Yes. I also used to go there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarpor sekhan theke, oi toiri holo . . . ogulo r deben na, ogulo r deben na, tahole ami r . . . (From there, that was built . . . don't give those things any more, don't give those things, then I will not be . . .) (laughs) Yadubara: Prabhupāda would you like to have a photo with Lalitā Prasāda? Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun esob amader private katha gulo . . . (Please don't keep these private talks of ours . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, na . . . osob katha amra chapbo keno. (No, no . . . we will not publish those talks.) Lalitā Prasāda: Thak na . . . (Let those be . . .) Prabhupāda: Oh apnader bhai bhai er katha, amra keno chapbo? Apnader bhai bhaier se ekta ghanista tar katha. Sekatha alada. (Those are the words between you brothers, why should we publish. Those were the talks between your brothers who were very close to each other. Those words are different.) Lalitā Prasāda: Se na, onya rakam ghanista ta . . . nijer duksha. (Not exactly, another type of closeness . . . my grief.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ye, bhai eromkam korlo na . . . . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Oh my brother you didn't do it . . .) Prabhupāda: Baro bhai ektu cote gelo, choto bhai ektu namra holo. Ei duniyar niyam. (The elder brother became a little angry and the younger brother had to be a little obliged. These are the norms of the whole world.) Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eigulo tader to kono anya katha na. O amra jani. (There's nothing more in this. That we know.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tabe ami Noa da ke tairi kore kore bolehilam sob bhabe . . . . . . (indistinct Bengali) (But I prepared Noa da (elder brother) in many ways . . .) Prabhupāda: Korechilen boleito eto baro holo. (It is because of his service he became so great.) Lalitā Prasāda: Onya bhaigulo kicchu sahayya kare na, ulte amake badha diyeche. (All the other brothers didn't help, rather they prevented me.) Prabhupāda: Orakam hoyechilo boleito, amrao sampakka hoyechilo, kichu seva korchi. (Because it so happened, we also got to have a relationship, rendering some service.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ulte aro, onya bhai bon gulo amake badha diyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . keno karis . . . keno karis? (On the contrary, all other brothers and sisters had opposed me . . . (indistinct) . . . why do you do, why . . . why you do that?) Prabhupāda: Hingsa, bhaiye bhaiye. (Envy amongst brothers.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami bollam na ami thakboi. Ami korbo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (I said, "No I will be there. I will do . . .") Prabhupāda: Huh?. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . kono jinis ami caina. (I don't want anything.) I don't require anything, Ei jonyei ami morechi (laughs), tarpor nije kato boi arambha korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . uni bandha korlen, ami nije arambha korlam (. . . for that reason I got finished (laughs), then I begun to do some books of my own . . . (indistinct) . . . he closed it down, I started my own.) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . sit down here. No. Yadubara: I don't think he can move very well. Prabhupāda: No he cannot move, I can move. Yadubara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Where shall I sit? Yadubara: It would be best if he could turn. I'm not sure if he can do that, and you could sit here. Prabhupāda: I will sit down here. Yadubara: Yeah, you could sit on the chair here. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yadubara: And if he can turn a little, I can take the photo from there. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ar eiye apni, amake ekta subidhe dicchen, eo amar ekta bhagyer katha. (And that you are offering me a favour, that is also a good fortune for me.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Niscoi colbe. (Will surely do.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Take candid and portrait, that also. Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yadubara: Lalitā Prasāda, could you look this way? Prabhupāda: Bolche apni oi dikta ceye dekhben ektu. (They are asking you to look that way.) You should always address him Ṭhākura Mahārāja Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They don't know that's why . . . Lalitā Prasāda: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oder desheri cal hocche ei. Thakur dada keo nam dhore dake. (This is the norm of their country. They call their grandfathers also by name.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Yadubara: Very nice. Thank you very much. Lalitā Prasāda: Apnara eto kharac korben keno? . . . (indistinct) . . . keno amar jonye kharac korben? (Why have you spent so much money . . . why you spend so much?) Prabhupāda: Apnar bacbar jonye Koti taka kharac korleo, eo kichu noy. (To keep you alive, even spending millions of dollars is not sufficient.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami khub simple. Amar kicchu caina. Amar ekta duksha roibe, bhakti korle na, nam korle na. Naam koro . . . (I am a very simple person. I don't have any demand as such. My only lamentation is that I haven't got Bhakti , not chanted the Name. Chant the Name . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, era sob nam kore. (Yes, all of them chant the Name.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, hya era kore. Era onekshan dhore nam korchilo bose bose. (Yes, yes, they do. They were chanting for a long time sitting there.) Prabhupāda: Nam kore. (They chant.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . se amar mathay, mathay thakbe . . . (indistinct) . . . Kolkatar khabar niyechilem . . . (indistinct) . . . ei Ananda bajare, ei bar. (He is in my head, let Him remain in my head . . . (indistinct) . . . have enquired about Calcutta, this time, in Anada bajar.) Prabhupāda: Sakali bolche, Kolkatate Kirtan hoate Naxalies. (Everyone is saying that because of Kirtan performances at Calcutta, Naxalites) (break) . . . komeche . . . (go to reduce . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes) Prabhupāda: Naxalite amader sange neceche. (Naxalites even danced with us.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ke? (Who?) Prabhupāda: Naxalite. Oiye naxalite sob marche lok ke. (Naxalite. Those naxalites who are killing people.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ora nakshal. (They are all nakshal .) Prabhupāda: Hya, nakshal. (Yes nakshal .) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, naxalites. (Yes naxalites.) Prabhupāda: Tara amader sange neceche, prasad peyechilo. (They have danced with us, took prasadam.) Lalitā Prasāda: Badmais, badmais sob. (Criminals, all criminals.) Prabhupāda: Sob badmais . . . (All criminals . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhalo hoye geche. (They become gentleman.) Prabhupāda: Bhalo hoye geche. (Become gentleman.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni khub upakar korlen desher. (You have done a great service to the country.) Prabhupāda: Sakali bolche Kirtan holo bolei theme geche. Sakale bolche. (Everyone is saying that because of the performance of kirtana this has stopped. Everyone is saying.) Lalitā Prasāda: Plague. Prabhupāda: Hya, plague er samay. Takhan ami . . . (Yes, during the time of the plague. Then I was . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Ami ek bachor . . . amar mone ache, ami takhan choto, ami necechi oi Nam Kirtane. (I was then one year old . . . I remember, although I was a kid then, I danced in the Nam kirtana .) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ora elo . . . (indistinct) . . . babake bollum, ye baba ora eyeche . . . (indistinct) . . . ami yabo na. (whispers) Woodburn ke bolle tumi egulo karo. Yei galpo guli janento . . . (they came . . . (indistinct) . . . informed father that they have come . . . (indistinct) . . . I will not go. (whispers) and went to tell Woodburn that you do all these things. Are you aware of those incidents . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm, ke . . . (who . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Woodburn . . . mane Governor, Woodburn. (Woodburn . . . means Governor, Woodburn.) Prabhupāda: Accha, Woodburn. (Oh, Woodburn.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Woodburn ke balo giye, tumi yodi plague tarate cao, Hari*-nam na korle yabe na, Hari-nam ano byas . . . (Went and told Woodburn that if you wish to eradicate plague, Hari-nama must be performed, elst it won't go. Perform Hari-nama that's it . . .) Gurudāsa: Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: The car is ready or not? We shall have to go. Gurudāsa: I think Śyāmasundara is just finishing fixing. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oita khub colche. (That one is running well.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . bangalir mato temon kapor porbe, ekhon kapor porbar emon . . . (they will wear a sari like a Bengali, now they will wear a sari like . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, Meyera sari porche. (Yes, Ladies are wearing saris.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, tai to bolchi . . . (indistinct Bengali) (That's what I am saying . . .) Gurudāsa: Śyāmasundara prabhu. Yadubara: Śyāmasundara how long will it be? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (whisper) segulo sob dekhabo apnake . . . (indistinct) . . . oikhanei ache . . . (indistinct) . . . apnake kichu korte hobe na . . . (indistinct) . . . yodi car piece chay pich o rakhen, ta segulo amar theke yabe buro bayose. Oi gulo . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . will show those all to you . . . (indistinct) . . . all are there . . . (indistinct) . . . you don't have to do anything . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you use 4 to 6 pieces, the things will remain, in this old age. Those . . .) *Prabhupāda: Apni ar baire*-taire yan na naki. (Seems that you don't go for outside work any more.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami uthte pari na, ami ekhan theke okhane uthte parina . . . (indistinct) . . . hamaguri diye yete hoy . . . (indistinct Bengali) (I can't get up even, I can't move here to there . . . (indistinct) . . . I am to crawl if I need to move . . .) Yadubara: He says five more minutes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Western . . . press. Yadubara: Na, na. (No, no.) (laughs) Lalitā Prasāda: Take one or two . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ar ektu thanda jal diye aso. (Please bring a little more cold water.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, Oh Hari. (Yes, Oh Hari.) Hari: Eito. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ene dao . . . jal dao . . . amar Hari achena sob pare . . . (Please bring . . . give water . . . my Hari can do everything . . .) (laughs) Prabhupāda: Amar . . . (My . . .) (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Apnar maa, meyeti khub . . . (Your, the mother and daughter are very . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Khub . . . (Very . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki holo re, jal dili ne? (What happened, you haven't given water?) Hari: Hm, dicchi. (Yes, giving.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao, thanda. Sabceye thanda jal niye aso, ene dao . . . mukhdiye khan, mukh diye khan . . . oder alada rakhbe, kicchu hobe na . . . apni or maa ke ektu jal dilen na, more jay yodi. Ektu jal deben na. onek upakar pabe . . . (indistinct) . . . thik katha. (Give, cold. Bring cold water, give here . . . you can touch your lips and drink, touch your lips and drink . . . they have separate water glass, there won't be any problem . . . will you give some water with your hand to his mother, she may die soon. Can't you give little water, she will be greatly benefitted . . . (indistinct) . . . that's correct.) Prabhupāda: Amar kache. (To me.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . banglar meye. (Bengal's daughter.) *Prabhupāda: Amar kache onek sob meye asche. Aj kal to meyeder sob biye hoy na. Ami mone korchi oke head kore tader ke sob siksha debo jonye ekhane anbo. (Many ladies are coming to me. Now*-a-days women don't get married. I am thinking that I will bring those ladies here for training and will make her as head of them.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct Bengali) . . . den, den pathiye den (. . . you can send.) Prabhupāda: Kimba ekhane yodi bari kori . . . (Or, if we can make a building here . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Eto bhaloi hoy, ekhane thakbe. Takhan gaan bajna colbe . . . ananda hobe, Hari nama colbe . . . (indistinct Bengali) (It will be good, they can stay. Bhajan Kirtan will happen . . . all will be happy, Hari nama will be also chanted . . .) Prabhupāda: Ekta bari kore, oke head kore rekhe debo. (Will make a building and will keep her as head.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob katha sunbe . . . (indistinct) . . . beche thakle hoy, bayos holo besh. (She will abide by your words . . . (indistinct) . . . hope she will be alive, she has become old.) Prabhupāda: Beshi bayos to noy. (Not that old.) *Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) Bayes bahanna*-tippanna. (Age 52 to 53.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Lalitā Prasāda: Bayos hoyeche, rakhbar bayos nei ar, tabe nijer . . .(indistinct) . . . ciro yaouban to, oi jonya cehara ta . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (She has become old, she is no longer young . . .) (indistinct) . . . yakhan maa eschilen . . . (indistinct) (. . . then when mother came . . .) (laughs) Prabhupāda: Ta apnar bhai der madhye dujoni brahmacari ar na aro sob? (So amongst your brother's two are brahmacari or others as well?) Lalitā Prasāda: Sob na . . . (indistinct) . . . sej dar duti chele, bor dar . . . (Not all . . . (indistinct) . . . but one of my elder brother's two sons, and eldest brother's . . .) Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja and Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura both are from the very beginning strict brahmacārīs . Gurudāsa: Ohh. Śyāmasundara: (outside) Try it now. Lalitā Prasāda: From the age of six I was disgusted with meeting females. Gurudāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: That, that means from the past life you were a . . . Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, past life chilem. Apnake bolchi bolben na) . . . (indistinct) . . . (Yes, In a past life I was. Don't tell that one . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (whispers) . . . (indistinct) . . . cheleke niye asbi, niye elo . . . dam diye kine niye elo . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . bollo, amar gharta khule de . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . you bring your son, so he was brought . . . purchased with a price . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . told to open my room . . .) Prabhupāda: Kata diner janya . . . (For how many days . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Chay bachchar pare, chay bachchar. (Six years, after six years.) Prabhupāda: Chay bachchar. (Six years.) *Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ye din gelen, sedin niye gelen . . . tei*-se March . . . (the day he went on that day only he took away . . . 23rd March . . .) Prabhupāda: Sei ghar tay apni cabi diye rekhechen. (That room you have kept locked.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sei ghare, cabi diye, ami yai ni . . . amar ek bhaipo ke diyechilum. Sei bhaipo ghar tay puja kore, amader bother korar kichu nei, kintu majhe majhe sei ghure . . . (indistinct) . . . ekdin bodh hoy giyechilo . . . dekhe ese . . . (indistinct) . . . ar se baro ghar . . . sekhane pancas jan lok easily boste parbe. (That room, after locking, I haven't gone . . . had given the keys to one of my nephews. He used that room for puja room, never bothered to intimate us. . . . (indistinct) . . . most probably they went there one day to see . . . (indistinct) . . . it's a big room . . . about 50 people can sit easily.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Lalitā Prasāda: Chabbis feet lamba, ar egaro feet caora. (26 feet long and 11 feet wide.) Prabhupāda: Khub baro ghar. (Very big room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei gharta maa diye gelo, uni yaoar pore . . . (indistinct) . . . kono din bhara cai ni . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Mother gave that room, after her passing . . . (indistinct) . . . we never asked for rent . . .) Prabhupāda: Ar or ghar to ekta ache. (And he has another room for him.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Prabhupāda: Apnar dadar, tar oto ekta ghar ache. (Your elder brother, he also has a room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tar choto ghar chilo, ektalay, sei ghare . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (He had a small room, on the first floor, in that room . . .) Prabhupāda: Besh korecho. (You have done good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Sei onek yukti kore korechi . . . (indistinct) . . . ki korbo. Ei Mayapure . . . (indistinct) . . . map diye matir thakur yara duti ache ar duti kather thakur ache. Oi Bishnu Prya ar Lakshmi Prya. Lakshmi Prya matir thakur. Ar ekti . . . (indistinct) . . . ar Bishnu Prya kather. Lakshmi Prya . . . (indistinct) . . . matir. Erpor British ra eschilo . . . (indistinct) . . . Roy Bahadur . . . district engineer . . . (indistinct) . . . Sarkar. Yar bhai Kishori Sarkar chilo na. Se iyer jamai . . . Sirish Babu . . . (indistinct) . . .Sirish Babuder bhagni pati . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Did it after a lot of thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . what else can I do . . . (indistinct) . . . in Māyāpur . . . two Deities made of clay and two of wood. Bishnu Priya and Lakshmi Priya. Lakshmi Priya is made of clay. Another one . . . (indistinct) . . . and Bishnu Priya is of wood. Lakshmi Priya . . . is of clay. Britishers came once . . . Roy Bahadur . . . district engineer . . . Sarkar. Whose brother was Kishori Sarkar. He was the brother in law of Sirish Babu . . . the brother in law of Sirish Babu's family . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . se ar oi dujone, Mayapur amra . . . (indistinct) . . .chotobela amra sakole . . . (indistinct) . . . ta Sirish Babu ke yakhani kolakatay. . . . amar kono bhaike yodi guardian kore dile ami doure . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . he and other two, we together in Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . we were in our childhood then . . . (indistinct) . . . Sirish Babu, whenever he used to visit Calcutta . . . as a guardian for my brother's I used to rush . . .) Prabhupāda: Finished? Śyāmasundara: No. I need one small piece of wire. I wondered . . . Prabhupāda: Accha ektu tar ache? (Do you have a small piece of wire?) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki tar? (What type of wire?) Bengali Devotee: Loha? (Iron wire?) Prabhupāda: Ye kono tar. (Any type of wire.) Śyāmasundara: Electric wire about this long. Lalitā Prasāda: (Bengali conversations with Prabhupāda and others) Lalitā Prasāda: Ki? Ki? Ki? (What? What? What?) Bengali Devotee: Na, electric tar. (No, electric wire.) Lalitā Prasāda: Electric caire? (Asking for electric wire.) Bengali Devotee: Din. (Give this.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei dao. (Give, give it here.) Prabhupāda: Dao, dao. (Give, give.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao. Kete dao na okhan theke. (Give. Just cut it from here.) Bengali Devotee: Eito amar ghare ache. (I have in my room.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dao. Kete dao. Na hole darkar . . . (indistinct) . . . kete dao. Ek colour. Ami sob rakhi, (Give. Cut it and give. If required . . . (indistinct) . . . cut it and give. Single color. I keep almost everything,) I keep everything. . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Apnar abhab ki. (You have no scarcity.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami . . . sob, every . . . kon dike janina balun. (I . . . all, every . . . tell me something of which I don't have any idea about.) Śyāmasundara: (laughs) He's got everything. Lalitā Prasāda: Oi tare hobe? (Will that wire do?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes of course). Lalitā Prasāda: Yadi mota tar darkar hoy tao pabe. (If some thick wire is needed that too can be arranged.) Bengali Devotee: Accha . Lalitā Prasāda: Amar, amar ei buro bayose . . . (My, in my old age . . .) Prabhupāda: Accha, duto rasta ache ki? Ekta rasta ei rasta ta to bhal na. Ei kaca rasta ta. (Are there two routes? In one route the roads are not good. It is unconstructed clay road.) Bengali Devotee: Konta? (Which one?) Prabhupāda: Amra eschilam ei kaca rasta diye. Ar kono rasta ache? Ekjan bollo ye, odik diye paka rasta. (We came by that unconstructed road. Is there any other route? Someone said that there is one asphalt road on that side.) Bengali Devotee: Se anek ghur hobe. (It will be a longer route.) Lalitā Prasāda: Na, shunun. Ekhen theke Phule. (No, listen please. From here to Phule.) Prabhupāda: Phulia hya, Phule. (Phulia yes, Phule.) Lalitā Prasāda: Paka rasta. (Asphalt road.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekbare mise yabe. (Directly it will merge.) Prabhupāda: Seiti to bhalo hoy. (That will be better.) Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, apni eidike . . . (indistinct) . . . bridge paben. (Well, from here you will get . . . (indistinct) . . . bridge.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Ta apnar adh ganta beshi lagbe. Mile dash . . . bridge diye kuri minute lagbe. (That will take more than half an hour. After ten miles . . . by the bridge it will take 20 minutes.) Prabhupāda: Mile dasher. (About ten miles.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ta hok. Kintu paka rasta diye yabo. (Let it be but we will go by the asphalt road.) Lalitā Prasāda: Paka rasta diye yabe . . . apnake bolchi . . . oi libraryr pas diye beriye, oikhane giye, saman cole yabe, oi gate ta. (Go by asphalt road . . . I will tell you . . . go out beside the library, from there straight away it goes, that gate.) Prabhupāda: (to Bengali devotee) Tumi ektu baba ektu egiye debe . . . (You please physically guide us a little . . .) . Lalitā Prasāda: Accha, tui noy ektu egiye diye ay . . . (Well, you please go with them a little distance.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ektu egiye diye eso. (Yes, please come with us a little.) Lalitā Prasāda: Gate paryanta egiye diye ay. (Go with them up to the gate.) Bengali Devotee: Thik ache. (Okay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Gate par hoye gele, gari par hote dekhle . . . ebar gari par hole, tui bari cole asbi. Ar ese amake khabar dibi 'ora cole gelo', Hari re. Accha, oi korbe. Ei rasta diye yabe. (After crossing the gate, if you see a car has crossed . . . after the car has crossed, then you return. And after returning, give me news that, "They have gone." Hari, did you understand? Okay, he will do so. They will go by this route.) Prabhupāda: Hya, ami bolechi, Phulia diye. (Yes, I have said, via Phulia.) Lalitā Prasāda: Phulia yan, Phuliar ye gate ta ache . . . (Go to Phulia, the gate is there at Phulia . . .) Prabhupāda: . . . Shantipur. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, Shantipur diye . . . (indistinct) . . . ek bare Calcutta. (No, not from Shantipur . . . (indistinct) . . . straight to Calcutta.) Prabhupāda: Na, Kolkata to yabo na. (We will not go to Calcutta.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kothay? (Where?) Prabhupāda: Amra ekhon Mayapure yabo. (We will go to Māyāpur now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, Phulia diye ghure yaben. (Oh, you will go via Phulia then.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Phulia diye Shantipur diye. (Yes. Via Phulia and Shantipur.) Lalitā Prasāda: Khub bhalo hobe . . . (indistinct) . . . apni to egiye yaben. (It will be very good . . . (indistinct) . . . you are going ahead.) Prabhupāda: Hya, sei to. (Yes, that's what.) Lalitā Prasāda: Apnara keno ei rasta diye eschen . . . (Why have you come through this road . . .) Prabhupāda: Janina. (Not aware.) Lalitā Prasāda: Three miles kom ache. (You would have traveled three miles less.) Three, could have saved three miles, by coming direct from the Phulia. Paka road . . . pakka road (. . . Asphalt road . . .) Prabhupāda: Se to janena. (That they don't know.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Tumi rasta ta ektu dekhiye dao Phulia diye. (You please show us up to the road, through Phulia.) *Lalitā Prasāda: Here is Phulia, here is Shantipur, here is Kṛṣṇa*-nagar . . . (indistinct) You have come here. Prabhupāda: Here, here. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: There you took turn and you come here . . . (indistinct) . . . you are come two, two, two or three mile saved, you could have easily saved. Prabhupāda: And road is also nice. 10 miles. Prabhupāda: And road also nice. Lalitā Prasāda: Road is nice. Lalitā Prasāda: Kacca road, ekhono pakka hoy ni. Amader, amader . . . (indistinct Bengali) (. . . unconstructed road, asphalting not yet done. Our, our . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ekhono . . . (indistinct) . . . (Until now . . . (indistinct) . . .) Prabhupāda: Rasta ar kare ni. (Asphalting not done.) Lalitā Prasāda: Rasta r hoyni . . . ei Nineteen thirty sevene . . . yakhan iye eschilo . . . Anderson . . . takhan se bollo ami paka korbo . . . (indistinct) . . . ajo paka holo na, ei to Baruipur road . . . (indistinct) . . . ei road. (Have not laid asphalt . . . in 1937 . . . when he came . . . Anderson . . . he told me that I will construct the asphalt road . . . but until date it is not done, this Baruipur road . . . . (indistinct) . . . this road.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Yak, apni . . . tahole apni Nabadwipi yaben. (Whatever, you are here . . . that means you go up to Nabadwip only.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Yes, along with. Lalitā Prasāda: Oh, tahole . . . (indistinct) . . . Ganga nadite . . . (indistinct) (Oh, then . . . (indistinct) . . . Ganges . . .) Prabhupāda: Ajke yabo na, kal yabo. (I will not go today, tomorrow I will.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya . . . (Yes . . .) (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Eder ghuriye niye ya to (You please go with them) . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Tahole to ektu dur hoye yay. (Then it will be quite far.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Bengali Devotee: Phulia hoye aschilen. (You came via Phulia.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Phulia hoyei asa uchit, yanta na. (Yes, you had to come via Phulia, I did not know . . .) Bengali Devotee: Ekebare metalic . . . (Then metallic . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Phulia, Phulia . . . Phulia gate. Oi gate . . . (indistinct) . . . sei gater oikhane dhuke porlo . . . (indistinct) . . . ar apni ekhan diye yaben. (That gate . . . (indistinct) . . . enter near that gate . . . (indistinct) . . . and you go from here. Prabhupāda: Oh . . . jana nei to . . . (Oh . . . were not known . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Apni, apni Mayapur yaben? (You, will you go to Māyāpur?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: 1 hour lagbe. 15 miles. Katakshan, car minute, 1 hour. Ek ghantay pauche yaben. Apni namchilen kothay? (It will take about 1 hour. 15 miles. How long, 4 minutes, 1 hour. You will reach by 1 hour. Where will you stay?) Prabhupāda: Amra jayga kinechi. (We have purchased land.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon jayga? (Which place?) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . (That . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Na, na, na. (No, no, no.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole? (Then?) Prabhupāda: Amader Chaitanya . . . Yog pith ache na. (Our Caitanya . . . Yogapitha is there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Okhan theke der mile. (1.5 miles from there.) Lalitā Prasāda: Mane, amader Math er aspase. (Then, adjacent to our Matha.) Prabhupāda: Oi . . . between. Madhav Maharajer ar amader Yogpith . . . (That . . . between. Madhav Mahārāja's and our Yogapitha . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Madhav Maharajer . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Madav Mahārāja's . . .) Prabhupāda: Na, ato dure yete hoy na. Thik Yogpither khanik ta pore. (No, not that far. Just at a little distance from Yogapitha.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ei side . . . (this side . . .) Prabhupāda: Ei side. Ei side Madhav Maharajer parei amra . . . On this side. Madhav Mahārāja's Gaudiya Math is on this side. Lalitā Prasāda: Madhav Maharajer oi jayga diye par hon, oi khan diye par hon. (You cross over from Madhav Mahārāja's place, do you cross over from there?) Prabhupāda: Par hoi amra to edik diye yai. (We cross over from this side.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kon dik diye? (From which side?) Bengali Devotee: Bagulia hoye. (Via Bagulia.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bagulia hoye yan? Bridge er opor diye? (You go via Bagulia? Above the bridge?) Bengali Devotee: Na. (No.) direct. Prabhupāda: Direct. Lalitā Prasāda: Bridge? (Over the bridge?) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Huh? Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tahole . . . (indistinct) . . . na. (Then not via . . . (indistinct) . . . no.) Prabhupāda: Na, na. (No, no.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh. Tahole to . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Then you go . . .) Prabhupāda: Par hote gele to . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (If you want to cross over then . . .) Bengali Devotee: Hya . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Yes . . .) Lalitā Prasāda: Oh. Tai janye . . . (indistinct) . . . Mayapure. (Oh. That's why . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāpur.) *Bengali Devotee: Mayapur bod hoy tin*-car mile. (Māyāpur is probably 3 to 4 miles.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya. Car mile. Pakka. Ami hete gechi kato bar. Oi sandhya kaler dike yete hobe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (Yes. 4 miles. Confirm. So many times I have gone by walking. You have to go in the evening if you go by walking . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . Jagannath mandir ache. (Jagannatha temple is there.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . ekhon ki hoyeche janina. Aj tin bachor yai ni ar dekhini . . . (don't know what the situation is now. I have not gone for three years, I have not seen.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) . . . Kanju ya byabhar kare (the way Kanju behaves) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Na hajam hobe na kintu. Niyeche hajam hobe na. Hajam hocche na. Sob thak kore felche. Sob nasta korche. (Taken but won't be able to digest. They have taken but will not be able to maintain. Digestion is not happening. They are making everything faulty. Destroying everything.) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Maha visaya buddhi. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . sunechen to? (. . . have you heard that?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Bhaiyer sathe anyay, janen to? . . . (indistinct) . . . bhai ta. (He cheated on his brother, do you know about this? . . . (indistinct) . . . that brother.) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Badmais, janen na. (Don't you know his mischief?) . . . (indistinct) . . . or ye bou ta chilo . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (he had a wife . . .) Prabhupāda: Hya, hya. (Yes, yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . bou take nasta korlo (spoiled the wife) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hya. Sunchi. (Yes. I heard.) Lalitā Prasāda: Tarpore, o abar . . . (indistinct) . . . meye ke biye kore niye esche . . . (indistinct) . . . biye kori . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . chele barrister . . . (Then he again married . . . (indistinct) . . . daughter and come . . . (indistinct) . . . let me marry you . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs). . . . (indistinct) . . . the son is barrister . . .) Prabhupāda: Osob matlab kore barrister, ukil koreche, eisob hat korbar janya. (They have made them barrister, lawyer with a gameplan to capture all of them in their control.) Lalitā Prasāda: Kato taka eikhan theke curi koreche, thakurer gayna curi kore, Mayapurer theke . . . (indistinct) . . . janen apni. . . . (indistinct) . . . Gaudiya Math . . . curi koreche. Kichu gayna bouer kache chilo, ache ekhon. Ar dui laksha taka aro curi kore jami bari korechilo . . . (indistinct) . . .ukil ra case korechilo. (Stole lots of money, the ornament of the Deities, from Māyāpur . . . (indistinct) . . . do you know? . . . (indistinct) . . . Gaudiya Math . . . stole from there. Ornaments were with the wife, it is still there. He stole two lakhs more and made some land and properties . . . (indistinct) . . . lawyers have filed a case.) Prabhupāda: So let us go. Tahole amra uthi. (We are leaving now.) Lalitā Prasāda: Se ar bole ki korbo, osob baje katha to (What is the benefit of saying, those are all dirty words . . .). . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Or gun sob jani ami . . . (I know all his qualities quite well . . .) so. Lalitā Prasāda: Na, gharer katha sobi ami jani. (I know all the stories of our family.) Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ami boli na. Apnake bolte pari, onya ke na. Era bojhen na bole bollam egulo. Na hole boltum na. (I won't reveal it. I can tell you only, not to others. Because these people (foreign devotees) will not be able to understand, that's why I could tell you. Otherwise I would not have told.) (laughs) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Ei, maa . . . maa ke balo era cole yabe. Ar maa ke khabar dao. (Hey, tell your mother they are going to leave. Inform your mother.) Bengali Devotee: Dicchi. (Okay.) Lalitā Prasāda: Hya, maa ke balo. (Yes, tell mother once.) Prabhupāda: Where is Bhavānanda? Yadubara: He is sleeping. Lalitā Prasāda: Apni . . . (You . . .) Yadubara: I think he is a little bit sick. Lalitā Prasāda: Ami maa ke bolechi, yakhani era asbe, khub yanta korbe. O sob nijei kare. Ar amar katha sune, aro . . . (I have told my mother that whenever these people will come, she should take good care of you all. She does everything. Now after hearing me, she will do more . . .) Bengali Devotee: Onara berobe. (They will leave.) Lalitā Prasāda: Thik ache . . . khabar holo ajke? (Alright . . . was the food proper today?) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Khabar, kheye tustu holo? (The food, are you satisfied after eating?) Bengali Devotee: Khub kheyechi. (We have taken too much.) Prabhupāda: Hya, khub kheyechi, khub bhalo. (Yes taken too much, very good.) Lalitā Prasāda: Bhagavaner payes to korte bollum, ke khabe na, tai payes korechi. (I was told to prepare sweet rice for the Lord, if anyone would like it. So the sweet rice was made.) Prabhupāda: Sob jinis eto sundar hoyeche. (Each and every item was very nice.) Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo Govinda bhoga cal. (Those were Govinda bhog rice.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Ogulo Govinda bhoga cal. (They were Govinda bhoga rice.) Prabhupāda: Hya, Govinda bhoga cal. (Yes, Govinda bhoga rice.) Lalitā Prasāda: Oigulo Murshidabad theke aniyechi. (I brought it from Murshidabad.) Prabhupāda: Huh? Lalitā Prasāda: Murshidabad theke aniyechi (I have brought it from Murshidabad . . .). . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Murshidabad. Lalitā Prasāda: Sekhan theke aniyechi. (I have brought from there.) Prabhupāda: Murshidabad. (break) Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . eke bollam, onek . . . (I told him, many) . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . na purana lok to . . . (an old fellow here.) Lalitā Prasāda: Dekhun babar ya hater lekha, khamer pase lukono chilo . . . (indistinct) . . . asche. (See, the handwriting of my father was hidden in an envelope . . . (indistinct) . . . came here.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . sei katha guloi amar asche (saying the same thing) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhechi ami. (I have seen.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Dekhun bhagavaner iccha sob, hobe ekdin . . . (Just see, everything is the will of the Lord, everything will happen on that day) . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Apnake ar ekta katha bolbo? (Should I tell you something?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (continue whispering) . . . (indistinct) . . . ami Kesta ke cai ne, Radha ke cai ne . . . ami cai Radha Krsner jiboner miloner ye lila ta . . . (I don't want Kṛṣṇa, nor do I want Radha . . . I want that the pastime of Radha Kṛṣṇa's meeting . . . this pastime . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . darkar. (. . . that is required.) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . Radharani . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Yakhani (Whenever) (whispers) . . . (indistinct) . . . amar anurodh (. . . my request.) Prabhupāda: Achha . Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . (whispers) . . . ami yat dur chance peyechi . . . (in so far that I got a chance . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lalitā Prasāda: (indistinct) . . . dui jayga yabe . . . (will go in two places.) Bengali Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Lalitā Prasāda: Han. (Yes.) . . . (indistinct) (break) (end) Conversation -- April 17, 1972, Auckland Śyāmasundara: (introducing recording) Lecture in Prabhupāda's room. Confidential talks with his devotees on the evening of April 17th, 1972, in Auckland, New Zealand. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . just find out . . . (indistinct) . . . talks . . . (indistinct) . . . if you want to . . . (indistinct) Hanumān: They will travel back and forth. They will travel back and . . . they will stand. Now they are building huge spaceships, will be like a city, and they will install a city there, of spaceships, so many big, like a city, and then there will be . . . there will be little spaceship going back and forth. Prabhupāda: Utopian. (laughter) Utopian. Hanumān: But they still, they . . . they said that there was . . . there was something like that now. One was leaving this morning five o’clock to go there on the moon. One after another was leaving this morning to go there. Prabhupāda: That they have gone many times. It is not new thing. But they cannot stay there. They come back. Hanumān: They cannot stay here, either, very long. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hanumān: They cannot stay here very long, either. Prabhupāda: Still, they can stay here at least. But there it is . . . (indistinct) . . . so how they can live there? Hanumān: Well, they will bring everything from here, there. and then, then they can live there. (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: First of all to go there, two million miles away? Śyāmasundara: It is near nine, nine million miles. Prabhupāda: Nine million. So the gasoline taken from here nine million to come back. That is the problem. Hanumān: It is not exactly gasoline; it is solid. It is solid gasoline, Prabhupāda. It is solid, a kind of . . . very chemical . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Hanumān: . . . it is not exactly the same kind of chemical. And for a while also the Sputnik, they worked with the . . . the those . . . (indistinct) . . . in other words, they . . . Prabhupāda: So why the astronauts are taking so much trouble? Why don't they stay? And they do not take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to home? (laughter) What is the profit by doing such business, by bringing petrol from moon planet and use it here and drive motorcar? Why they are taking so much trouble? Hanumān: Because they are rascals. (laughter) Indian Guest: One more thing Swamiji . . . they say why there is no living entities, because if there are any living entities then there would be some changes on the surface of the moon. Because whenever there is the living entities, there would be something there, actively, and so the actual surface of the moon would be changed. But they don't see any changes there, if there is animals. They would do some kind of activities . . . Prabhupāda: There is no trees or . . . (indistinct) Indian Guest: Only a rock, plain rock. Prabhupāda: But here, so far we have already seen it, rock is reserve of living entities. Indian Guest: Yes. Hanumān: They say they have heard strange noise. Astronauts who go there, they say that they have heard very strange noise. Prabhupāda: From where the noise comes? Hanumān: They don't know, but they say it is full of noises, many kinds of noises. Indian Guest: They don't know what is the other half of the moon. We only have seen the half moon, but we cannot see the other side of the moon, and they cannot go there because it is completely dark there. It is completely dark there. Prabhupāda: Dark? Indian Guest: Dark, yes. There is no sunshine at all. Sunshine is only for one half of the moon. That we see from earth. And then that half remains, and that half is facing the sun all the time, while other half is completely out of sunshine. Prabhupāda: So what is this traveling light? Indian Guest: On the moon there is half… Prabhupāda: It is half, but what is . . . (indistinct)? Indian Guest: It is sunshine. Prabhupāda: Sunshine, that it is all right. But what is there in the moonshine? . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that sunshine? That is not ordinary dust, because in ordinary dust, if there is sunshine it does not reflect. Indian Guest: No it does not. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Dust? Indian Guest: Yes, because they can see moonshine as dust from shining from the moon. Hanumān: Then they consider… when you are on the planet moon, they take a picture of the planet earth, and it is just like the moon. From here the moon looks just like the earth looks from the moon. Prabhupāda: Then the moonlight is . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Indian Guest: They do . . . yes . . . (indistinct) . . . they can actually see . . . they can see Mars from here. Hanumān: They take picture . . . (indistinct) Indian Guest: Wherever they come from, suppose there is one flag, flag port. And if there is one . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see it. Similarly, the whole sky is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, but just the other part is dark, now how it can remain dark if the shining from the earth is going there? Indian Guest: Now what happens is that suppose there is a moon, and I mean to say there is sun, and the moon is going like that, see? So that is how it remains in light all the time. And the other half, it remains out of sunshine all the time. Prabhupāda: Every planet is rotating. Indian Guest: But moon is rotating in such a way that the half remains in sunshine; the other remains in dark all the time. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Indian Guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Rotating means it must turn. Because sunshine is very great, and all other planets they are very small. So as soon as it is rotating, it must come to be face of the sunshine. Indian Guest: Because there are two reasons. There are two forces to the moon: one from the earth and the other from the sun. These two forces keep the moon in such a way that the half, only one half remains facing the sun, and the other half remains in the dark. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I don't believe all this nonsense. (laughter) This is unnatural. Every planet is rotating that is called orbit . . . (indistinct) . . . so how this moon can be different from other planets? Every planet is in the outer space. They have no support. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . it is rotating. So how the moon will be? Even sun is rotating. So what this moon has got that it has got different method? So everything to me, actually, it appears to be . . . (indistinct) . . . and they have not gone to the other side. Why? Why this is? Indian Guest: No. Darkness prevails. It is dark there, completely dark. Prabhupāda: So that means that part never comes to the sunshine? Indian Guest: No. Prabhupāda: So that is impractical. Sun is also rotating. So, sun also by rotating, it does not light that part? This is moon; it is not rotating. But sun is rotating, so why it does not shine the other part? Indian Guest: The sun is rotating with moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian Guest: Sun is rotating with moon . . . (indistinct) . . . light. Prabhupāda: The sun is rotating with all the planets? Indian Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: All the planets. Indian Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is another. The whole planetary system is . . . Indian Guest: Is rotating, yes. Prabhupāda: The center is the polestar. Indian Guest: That's it. Prabhupāda: So that is another rotating. Indian Guest: Yes. The moon is rotating around earth. But again, earth is rotating around the sun. So sun and moon are in . . . more than earth, they are both rotating around the sun, but again moon is rotating around earth too. And this moon, earth is rotating around sun. Prabhupāda: There are many other planets, they're also rotating. Indian Guest: Oh, yes. They are all rotating. Prabhupāda: All rotating. Moon is only small. Actually smaller than the earth. Indian Guest: No, no . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So you can go on speculating, but so far we are concerned—it is coming from śāstra —moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. The residents of that planet, they're all demigods. Indian Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So the demigods means they have got very, very long duration of life. They are more intelligent; their standard of living is so much better. So these things we have got information. If they describe the moon planet like that, it is very difficult to follow. Indian Guest: So this will happen sometimes, that, Swāmījī, that description in the śāstra and the reality, they . . . (indistinct) . . . what sometimes asks, and what we believe from the śāstra , is a contradiction to them. Prabhupāda: Contradictment to them, but we don't contradict. We take it as it is. And their contradiction has not proved their theory. They are talking about planets, so many things like that . . . (indistinct) . . . so it is very difficult to believe. Woman devotee: There was one program on television where they were presenting the theory of the scientists, and it was showing how the theories that they have on outer space every ten or twelve years are changing completely. And the whole program was a scientific program. So this is what you believe . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore they are nonsense. Woman devotee: They all contradicted each other, every one. Prabhupāda: Just see. Therefore how can we teach? If it changes, you cannot teach them. Then what is the value of their knowledge? Indian Guest: Oh, yes. It is changing all the time. They say that sun is rotating because . . . (indistinct) . . . all the time. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Indian Guest: That's a fact. Is it in śāstra , Swāmī? Prabhupāda: Everything is clear, will become clear. Indian Guest: Is it that śāstra somewhere? Prabhupāda: Because everything comes as a seed, then it becomes developed. That is the way of material things. Hanumān: So this planet also, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hanumān: It came out of a seed, and then it grows with all the . . . oh. Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Eight million. Hanumān: And this evolution process, is it different living entity among the 8,400,000 species who came, and gradually, until men came? Or man was always here? Prabhupāda: Man was always here. Hanumān: Man was always on this planet. Prabhupāda: May not be in this planet, but there was always. Because just like in New Zealand, there was no men . . . (indistinct) . . . the Europeans came later on. So it was not so full of life, but there was a class of men. All others, animals, were there, trees were there. Indian Guest: But so many . . . (indistinct) . . . have a high temperature of fifty million centigrade, and it does not remain in solid or liquid form. It becomes a gas, a vapor, completely. Now how . . .? Prabhupāda: Therefore gaseous body. Indian Guest: Gaseous body. That is what I mean; there must be some gaseous body. *Hanumān: And the scientists, they also say that in twenty*-five years from now, whatever they contrive to do they will not be able to feed all the people of this planet. They can try to . . . Prabhupāda: At the end of it, everything has changed; therefore they can speak. Hanumān: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So they have got this loophole. They can speak any nonsense. They will adjust, "Oh, it has changed." That's all. Woman devotee: One time they believed that the world was flat. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: And the man was hanged who said it is round. That was their perfect knowledge. So we have to believe such perfect knowledge. When they say it has changed . . . their position. We cannot accept such knowledge. It changes every twenty*-five years. (break) But we see . . . (break) Indian Guest: . . . moon does not have its own light. It is a reflection of sunlight. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . and in the Bhagavad*-gītā it states, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁśaśī ( BG 10.21). Hanumān: Hmm, yes. Prabhupāda: So this moon planet is one of the stars, illuminated . . . (indistinct) . . . we are getting moonlight at night, but if the earth is also reflecting like that, what is the use of moonlight? Indian Guest: But earth is reflected on moonlight. But one of the reason is that the sky is pure dark region, but if any objects come in the sky, and if moonlight falls on that object, then you can see the object, and that is due to the reflection of light that we get from that object. You see, what happens, if moonlight does not fall on the sun, then you wouldn't be able to see the sun at all. If sunlight doesn't fall on the sun, then we would not be able to see sun at all. Similarly, if moonlight or sunlight does not fall on the earth, then they would not be able to see earth from the sun . . . earth from the moon. (break) Prabhupāda: We have to leave all this material world. Indian Guest: This is right. Prabhupāda: We are not going to take birth again in this material world, either in the moon planet or sun planet, or this planet, or that, within this universe. Not only this universe—there are millions of universes. Nowhere we're going to come. We are not interested. (laughs) Indian Guest: No. No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You see? So we're going to the spiritual world to have our eternal, blissful knowledge and life. That is our program. So what we will do with this teeny information of moon planet, this planet, that planet? We have got already some information, we are satisfied. That is all. But we're not going there. We are not interested. Why shall we go there? Indian Guest: No. Śyāmasundara: Are you talking about the three astronauts on their way there now? Yes. Hanumān: We don't want any petrol. We don't want to give our lives for some petrol. Prabhupāda: Why shall I find out petrol, when my petrol will be finished and I'll have to take a body like a dog or a cat? (laughter) They have no such knowledge. Hanumān: No, they don't. Prabhupāda: So finding out the petrol . . . when his personal petrol will be finished, he will have to accept the body of a dog. That's all. What he is going to do? First of all try to fill up your own personal petrol. Their personal petrol, it is sure to finish. That they don't care. So after finishing the personal petrol, if he is going to accept the body of a dog, then what is the use of finding petrol in moon planet? What is the answer for this, that how they are going to stop the petrol, which is going to finish after ten years or fifteen years? Where is the provision? Where is the atomic energy or petrol to keep yourself, to find out petrol in the moon planet? Where is that problem solved? By the time you find out petrol in moon planet, your petrol will be finished. (laughter) Then what you will do? Just see? Foolish attempt. Śyāmasundara: There is no possibility of petrol on the moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: Moon planet there cannot be petrol. Prabhupāda: Unless, suppose they're making research, find out petrol on the moon planet. But say it takes forty to fifty years: by that time your personal petrol will be finished. You cannot move; you cannot stop all nonsense. Then what you will do? So long you have got petrol, you are talking all nonsense as scientist. But when this petrol will be finished, you will no longer be able to talk even, what to speak of finding out petrol in moon planet. Where is that problem is solved? They are not very much interested in this subject matter. Eh? After all, your petrol is limited. Suppose you can live fifty or sixty years—upmost hundred years. But the scientist, when his petrol is finished, he is kicked out on the street, many, many scientist. So why do they not find out petrol for himself, so that he may continue the research work? So why they're lacking this knowledge? What do you say? (break) Hanumān: (indistinct) . . . they have a . . . they have a capsule where they put people who die from a sickness, and they take all the blood out, and they put some chemical, and they say that maybe in fifty or twenty or one hundred years from now, when they will have find the medicine, they will wake them up. Prabhupāda: That is in future. That is in future. Hanumān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're trying to keep the person. Hanumān: They are trying to keep the body conserved in a machine for the time being. They pay one million dollars to be put in that machine, and the machine all day long takes all this chemical out and then of their body. So maybe in fifty years they will be able to wake them up to cure the disease that killed them. Śyāmasundara: They are frozen, too, aren’t they? Hanumān: Frozen. They are frozen. They call it frozen. Śyāmasundara: Freeze their bodies. Hanumān: And great scientists, great doctors, they do that. They pay one million dollars to go in that machine in the hope that one day they will be able to come back and enjoy. Prabhupāda: Do you want to go? (laughter) Hanumān: No. I want to serve your lotus feet. Prabhupāda: *Just like when a person becomes ghostly*-haunted, he talks all nonsense. Similarly, one who is under the influence of māyā , he also talks. So this machine has proved successful even for a single man or children? Indian Guest: Not yet. Hanumān: They haven't wakened anyone up now. (laughter) They're all still in the machine. (laughter) In five years . . . Woman devotee: So that all the people who paid the money will be dead also. Prabhupāda: People are paying money and going to the machine? Hanumān: One million dollars. Indian Guest: To be in the machine. Prabhupāda: To make experiment? Hanumān: No, to be . . . if you want the chance to be woken up one day, you have to have one million dollars to maintain the machine for the time you know, until they find to wake you up. Prabhupāda: So many men have gone, and they have died? Hanumān: Yes. Yes, many men. Prabhupāda: So after died, then what is the profit? *Śyāmasundara: No, they volunteer to be killed. They volunteer to be killed in a way, because they put them to sleep, then they withdraw all the blood from their veins and inject some chemicals, and then they freeze them, very quickly, quick*-freeze. Called quick-freeze. Then 240° below zero. And in order to maintain that condition, that temperature, for a hundred, two hundred years, it will cost a lot of money. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: So they require to pay so much in advance, just to maintain that low condition. Prabhupāda: So they are being stopped. Śyāmasundara: Yes, stopped. Prabhupāda: So after two hundred years they will come out? Śyāmasundara: They are hoping that they will be able to come out alive. Prabhupāda: At least for two hundred years he's dead. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit? Śyāmasundara: Because they have a disease. Most of them have a fatal disease that there is no cure for—like cancer or heart disease. They are hoping in two hundred years they will have a cure, so that when they wake up they will be cured of that disease and live so many more years. Prabhupāda: How foolish. After two hundred years he will come out again on this hope, he is staying one weekend—and dies. And the government is allowing this business? Hanumān: Science is . . . (indistinct) . . . very serious. (laughter) (end) Arrival and Interview -- April 19, 1972, Hong Kong *Prabhupāda: . . . gītā . Unfortunately, there are so many interpretations by so many unscrupulous persons, so*-called scholars and philosophers, that they have spoiled the precept of Bhagavad-gītā . So we are just trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is to the world, and I am very happy to inform you, you know, that all over the world, wherever I am going, I am preaching this philosophy, they are being accepted. So I am also very glad that in this distant place, Hong Kong, from India, you are training your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is a very good sign. Their life will be very happy. So continue this process, try to understand the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, try to help this movement. *I may refer in this connection that Subhas, you know Netajī, he organized his Indian National Army outside India, because in India he was unable to organize. The circumstances were so awkward, even Mahatma Gandhi would not allow him. That was his position. So you know very well how Subhas Chandra Bose came out of his country and organized the INA movement, and practically India's got independence due to Subhas Bose's INA movement, not Gandhi's non*-cooperation movement. That is a fact. *So India has to give something to the world, and that is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice it can solve all the problems of human society. So in India, even our Indians are prepared to help to propagate this movement all over the world. Our government is so nice that it will not allow. It will not allow. Not a single farthing is allowed to come out of India. So there are so many obstacles, but I am working in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement single*-handed, so it is very pleasing to me that you are taking so much interest. So continue to support this movement spread all over the world, and I am sure people will be benefited. Actually they are being benefited. All these boys from Europe and America, how they are making advancement in spiritual consciousness you have seen, one or two examples. There are many thousands, and they are accepting it very seriously. So this movement is very important movement, and it is India's gift, and I would request you all Indians present here to support this movement: This body, to make this body successful, this human form of body is meant for making our life success. Otherwise, if you remain like cats and dogs, that is not success. The success is: You may remain a Brāhmin, varṇāśrama, varṇa and āśrama , as I have already explained. Whatever you may be, you must be within this one category, either Brāhmin or Kṣatriya or Vaiśya or Śūdra or brahmacārī , gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsī . In whichever classification you may remain, it doesn't matter, but try to see that your life is successful. *This is an instruction given by Sūta Gosvāmī to the great learned scholars in Naimiṣāraṇya, that ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā , "My dear learned Brahmins, dvija-śreṣṭhā . . ." All the members present there were highly learned Brahmins , so he gave this advice. "My dear dvija-śreṣṭhā , the best of the Brahmins," ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ . *There are divisions of social order or spiritual order, but one should try to see . . . (indistinct) . . . he must try to see that his life is successful. And what is that life is successful? Varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam : you have to see whether by your activities, by your behavior, by your actions Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. That is all. If you try to understand this only one point, that by your work Kṛṣṇa is satisfied . . . just like Arjuna satisfied Kṛṣṇa by fighting. Similarly, by your whatever occupation you are doing, if you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for that purpose, and we . . . you are already helping, and we shall be very glad if you cooperate and push this movement all over the world. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: What is that? Child: Prasāda . Prabhupāda: Prasāda . Thank you . . . keep it here. Very good boy. You take some prasāda first. Take it. Child: No, take little. Prabhupāda: All right. (laughter) You want prasāda ? Take it. (laughter) Oh, it is very nice, hmm. I shall eat, or you shall eat? Child: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh . . . (indistinct) Lady devotee: Samosās (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very nice prasāda . Child: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Not . . . (indistinct) Lady devotee: Pakoras . Prabhupāda: They have not yet come? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they are putting the luggage . . . they do not stay on this floor . . . (indistinct) . . . some floors down. Prabhupāda: They have come? Śyāmasundara: They are loading the luggage now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they have come? Śyāmasundara: Yes, they have come . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): Mr. Mack. Prabhupāda: If there is any question you can ask, on the subject matter on which we . . . eh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . this gentleman, he takes care of the . . . (indistinct) . . . United States, and he has a present for you. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: This is Larry Mack. Prabhupāda: What is that? Oh. This is for sannyāsī , or for lady? (laughter) Devotee: It is for the health. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. I am very glad that you have trained, so many boys. Undo this. Hmm. Yes? Child: Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . a forest fire. What was the forest fire? Prabhupāda: Hmm? (laughter in background) Prabhupāda: Forest fire? It takes place automatically. Devotee: We read them Kṛṣṇa book and we ask them questions at the class. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Forest fire, nobody goes to set fire in the forest, but it takes place. Therefore this material world is compared with forest fire. However you may try to keep yourself in peace and tranquility by your dealings with one another, there will be misunderstanding, and both the parties will suffer. Just like we tried to become independent out of the hands of the Britishers, to live peacefully, but the Pakistan and the Hindustan is still going on and fighting. Formerly the fighting was not organized; somewhere in the cities in some quarters there was fight. Now it is organized fight with lethal weapons. This is the position of the world. The United Nation is trying to stop war, but the war is increasing. They could not stop the Vietnam War. It is going on for the last fifteen years. So this forest fire example is there: nobody wants to set fire in the forest, but automatically, by nature's way, this world is such that there will be fire in the forest, and all the living entities within the fire, they will suffer. Similarly, this whole material world is just like a forest fire. But if we take the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, then He will swallow up the fire. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: You have seen the picture, Kṛṣṇa is eating. *That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there will be forest fire always within your heart. Saṁsāra*-davanale, divā-niśi hiyā jvale (Gītāvalī). The heart will be burning always. Any big man or small man who has no information of Kṛṣṇa, his heart is always burning. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahaḥ (SB 7.5.5). This forest fire is like that. Nobody wants forest fire, but it takes place. *And this forest fire cannot be extinguished by your so*-called fire brigade for tubs of water. No. That is not possible. Suppose there is forest fire, eh? You cannot go with . . . you cannot go in the forest with the fire brigade or tubs of water. Then how it will be extinguished? It will be extinguished. There is a process. What is that? When there is rainfall. Rainfall from sky, that is not in your hands. Similarly, this world of forest fire can be extinguished when Kṛṣṇa's mercy will fall down from. Therefore the forest fire is going on, and we are trying to draw the cloud of Kṛṣṇa and pour water on it. That is our mission. Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes? Śyāmasundara: There is a man here from a radio station. He would like to have a short interview with you if possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have already spoken. (break) Have you taken it? Reporter: Yeah. Devotee: You have a question? Reporter: Could you explain the Hare Krishna movement briefly to our listeners? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is Hare and Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. There are three words that make . . . (indistinct) . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. So this is a prayer addressing Harā. Harā, this word, Sanskrit word, when it is addressing, then it becomes Hare. So Harā means the energy of the Lord. *There are multi*-energies of the Supreme Lord. They are practically working everywhere. Just like fire, fire . . . in one place there is fire, but it is distributing the energy. Just like in one place there is sun planet, and the heat and light is being distributed. The heat and light is sun, at the same time not sun. So there is energy of the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. Those energies, spiritual energy and material energy, they are working. This Harā is the energy. We are addressing, "O the energy of the Lord." And Kṛṣṇa, "O Lord," Kṛṣṇa and Rāma, the Lord. So we are addressing the Lord and His energies to engage us in His service, "Please engage us in Your service." We are already in service, but that service is not giving us any happiness. So "Please engage us in Your service," that is the Hare Kṛṣṇa. And another advantage is God is absolute. There is no difference between His name and God. Just like here, there is difference. If you want water, simply "water, water" will not act. You must have the substance water, because it is relative world. But in the absolute world, Kṛṣṇa and His name, Kṛṣṇa the person, Supreme Person, and His name is the same. So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa we are associating with Kṛṣṇa, and as we are associating with Kṛṣṇa we are becoming purified. Therefore repeatedly chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, and you will be purified of your material existence; then your life will be successful. Reporter: One often hears about the difference between Western and Eastern philosophy and religion. Why do you think that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement attracted so many followers in the West? Prabhupāda: The Hare Kṛṣṇa is neither Western or Eastern. It is meant for human being. You see? This "Western," "Eastern," they are our own creation. God is neither Western or Eastern. God is God. So anyone who will chant God's name will benefit. That's all. There is no question of Western and Eastern. Reporter: How can Hare Kṛṣṇa help us solve our very difficult . . . Prabhupāda: Because if you are purified . . . the whole difficulty is that we are not purified. We are impure. Impure means we are thinking in bodily concept of life. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black," these are all designation of the body. We have to transcend the position of the body: We have to become nirmalam , purified pure soul. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi . This understanding, when I shall come to the stage, "I am pure soul, Brahman." So this is a great science, but the summary, I can inform you, that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa you become purified. And as soon as you become purified, you become happy. That is it. You have to become purified. At the present moment we are not purified, we are all impure. But this process will help you to become purified. So if you become purified, you understand everything. Just like if you are in delirium out of strong fever, you cannot see things what they are, talk so many nonsense things. So similarly, we being enchanted by this material energy or this material body, we are identifying with this body and we are unhappy. As soon as we are purified—we understand that, "I am not this body; I am pure soul"—then my happiness is guaranteed. Reporter: Can we reach this stage of purification? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So many are reaching. Why not? You see these American boys and European boys, they have reached purification. They are, from the very beginning of their life, they were meat*-eaters and so many things. Illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling, they are daily affairs. But they have given up everything. Are they not purified? They are being purified from sinful activities, actually, simply by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . This is practical. Practical example. Thousands and thousands of boys and girls, they are becoming purified simply by following the rules and regulations. So this is practical. If you do, you also become purified. Anyone will do. There is no question of "East" or "West," "Hindu," "Muslim." We have got students from all camps. The Africans, they are also dancing, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We have got branches in Africa and Canada, in Europe, in America, in Australia. I am just coming from Australia. We have got two temples, one in Melbourne, one in Sydney, and just yesterday we established another temple, in New Zealand, Auckland. *So we have got ninety*-five centers all over the world, and each center you will find not less than twenty-five, up to two hundred students like this, like Bhūrijana Prabhu. They are very happily living. Bhūrijana's wife, she was a very famous actress, but she has given up everything. Now she is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you see. Thank you. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. All glories . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. *(devotees offer obeisances, sing Gurv*-aṣṭaka prayers) Very good. Come on, leader . . . (indistinct) . . . who is your leader? Students come here, leader. Who is your leader? Devotee: Lalu Suresh Deepak. Prabhupāda: Come on. Who is Lalu? Devotee: Lalu Suresh Deepak. Prabhupāda: Ah. Child: The leader. Prabhupāda: So come on. You take. Take. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haribol! Haribol! Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya Prabhupāda. Wow! Haribol! Haribol! Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ācchā . Thank you very much. ( kīrtana ) (break) (end) Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 21, 1972, Tokyo Prabhupāda: It will be finished in about sixty volumes, like the one already you have got coming? Karandhara: Sample. Yes. Five coming. They are printing five already. Prabhupāda: Five coming. So similarly, we have to reprint our First Canto. Karandhara: That's what they're printing now. First and Second Canto. Prabhupāda: First and Second Canto. So all the First Cantos? Karandhara: Yes. Three volumes. Prabhupāda: Three volumes. Karandhara: And two volumes of the Second Canto. Prabhupāda: Then third, fourth, fifth. And the Tenth Canto will be about . . . there are ninety chapters. Karandhara: Ninety. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we are accommodating how many chapters? About six? Karandhara: It depends on the length of the chapters. Sometimes ten, sometimes six. Prabhupāda: So on the average, if you take eight chapters, then it comes to . . . Karandhara: Eight volumes. Prabhupāda: Eight volumes in the tenth chapter. Then Eleventh Canto, Twelfth Canto. So altogether it will be sixty volumes. One book, sixty volumes. Perhaps there is none in the world, one subject matter. (Japanese exclamations) So that I wish to contribute to the world, with the cooperation of Dai Nippon. Yes. It will be record contribution to the world thought. Karandhara: Already the first volume of the Third Canto and the First Volume of the Fourth Canto, they are ready to be printed. I have them in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. So now our Sanskrit editor is there, Pradyumna. Karandhara: The work will go much faster. Prabhupāda: Hmm. And if Hayagrīva also finishes, then I can give daily one chapter. Karandhara: Per day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: Should be able to produce a volume at least every month. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the editors must be very expedient. Besides that, I think this Kṛṣṇa book, smaller edition, that will have very soon another repeat. Karandhara: At least ten million we will print in the Kṛṣṇa book pocket size. *Prabhupāda: And Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , Macmillan Company's, they have taken, and they are also printing yearly fifty thousand, or more than that. At least in Western countries there is no such thought of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is completely . . . that professor, what is his name? Karandhara: Dimock? Prabhupāda: Dimock. He has given very good appreciation. And gradually it will be printed in other languages: German, French, Spanish, Denmark, Holland . . . Karandhara: Danish. Prabhupāda: Danish, yes. And we are getting also Hindi layout from India. That Hindi magazine also will be printed. Gradually, other Indian languages. And Japanese and Chinese also. ( japa ) Karandhara: If Dai Nippon opens a liaison office in Los Angeles, then it will be very easy to work. The contract is for all the jobs. Prabhupāda: The officer will remain there, he will be final, or you have to consult with Mr. Ogata and . . .? Karandhara: Well, their liaison officer there, he will be able to . . . he will correspond with Tokyo. They will fix up estimates and confirmations. But it will make the communication better. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) So there are many Japanese vegetarian? Or he is only? Dai Nippon Rep: Lately it is quite increasing in Japan, yes. It became popular, because we have a lot of problems with pollution. We have a lot of social problem like pollution, traffic jam like anything. So people, in order to keep good health, vegetarian is very good for health. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vegetarian food is very nice. We can give you vegetable menu, three hundred items at least. Dai Nippon Rep: Three hundred? *Prabhupāda: Three hundred. Simply grains, fruits and butter, that's all, and sugar. You give us these four items and we give you three hundred items. Yes. There is a ceremony in India, annakūṭa , Govardhana*-pūjā. So in that ceremony, in each and every temple they prepare as many varieties as possible. Some of them prepare three thousand. Dai Nippon Rep: Three thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. For weeks they prepare. And the competition is the more items the temple prepares, he becomes . . . (break) . . . only. And distribution, prasāda distribution, free of charges. It was a very nice system, that nobody should remain hungry. That is the system. If there is any temple in any neighborhood, in that neighborhood nobody should remain hungry. The Vedic system is that in your house, a householder shall see that even a lizard in the house is not hungry. He must also be given food. Even there is a snake—nobody likes snake—but a Vedic householder has to call the snake and give him food. He also may not remain hungry. This is the . . . *And these things will be explained in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , that anything, wherever it is—on land, on the air, sky, within the water, everywhere—God's kingdom; and all living entities, they are God's sons. So everyone has got the right to take advantage of his father's property. This is Bhāgavata communism. *The Communists are thinking in terms of their own country. But we, a devotee, we think in terms of all living entities, wherever he is, either in the sky or in the land or in the water. These things are explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Everything—politics, sociology, religion, philosophy, science, astronomy—everything is there in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . And we should not take this movement as a religious movement. It is not religious movement. It is a movement for understanding knowledge. Veda . Veda means knowledge. So religion, according to English dictionary, is a kind of faith. Faith you can change. You have faith today in something; tomorrow you may change. So this is knowledge. Any human being must be interested with advancement of knowledge. So you are waiting to stop me? Photographer: No, sir . . . (indistinct) Sudāmā: He is waiting to have a very nice pose of Your Divine Grace. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So Veda . . . Veda means knowledge. So every human being should be interested for advancement of knowledge. So our movement is not a religious movement; it is a movement for advancement of knowledge. And this knowledge, God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is especially meant for this human body. Because knowledge cannot be given to animals. I cannot speak to the other . . . animals about knowledge, because they are imperfect. Their body is imperfect. They are not suitable for receiving knowledge. Only elementary knowledge for maintaining this body, they have got: where to secure food, where to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse and how to defend. These knowledges are there in animals also. So human being requires further knowledge. That is special prerogative, gift by God, by nature. Whatever you say. So we should utilize this human body for furtherance of knowledge. And the first important knowledge is that we should know that there is life after death. That is the basic principle of knowledge. Unfortunately, at the present moment, in no university there is any department of knowledge where this education is given where there is life after death. I am traveling all over the world. There is no such department. They have completely evaded or set aside, because they cannot make any solution whether there is . . . I talked with one Mr. Kotovsky, a Russian professor in Moscow. I was in Moscow. He said: "Swāmījī, there is no life after death." Just see. He's a big professor, and his knowledge is so imperfect that he says that there is no life after death. *So that is the position everywhere. Those who are teachers, they are with imperfect knowledge. The teachers in the universities, they are with imperfect knowledge. Now, life after death, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is very easily explained that just like a child has next life, boyhood; the boy has next life as youthhood; the youthhood has next life, the old age; so why not the old age next life? If we are passing through so many stages of life, from birth or from the womb of the mother, then what is the reason that one does not believe there is no life after death? Can you say, any one of you? What is the reason? You remember your boyhood body; I remember my youthhood body. So that body is no longer existing, but I am existing. I remember my childhood body. My babyhood body also I remember, particularly. When I was about six months old, I still remember very vividly, I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister, and she was knitting. I remember still. Dai Nippon Rep: Six months? Prabhupāda: Yes, six months. I remember when I was only about one year old, there was a great saṅkīrtana in our house, and I was . . . I also joined the dancing party. And I was seeing up to their knees, very small. So I remember those days. And then after that, I was a boy. I was very much fond of cycling. So many things. Yes. So many dangers, so many adventures. Now I am old man. So all those different stages of body, I remember. But these bodies are not existing. So similarly, I remember or forget, but I was in different types of body—that's a fact. So similarly, after leaving this body, I will have another body. That is natural conclusion. What is the difficulty? Why I shall conclude that after end of this body, there will be no body? Why I shall conclude like this? I have got experience that I have passed though so many different forms of body, but I am existing, although the bodies are not existing. Similarly, in my past life I must have had another body. But . . . that is the law of nature. We get from the book of knowledge that a living entity is injected through the father's semina to the mother's womb, and that that living entity develops a certain type of body. The mother supplies the ingredient. So according to the mother's body, the body is prepared. And when it is matured to come out, it comes out. This is very important part of knowledge. But there is no educational system to understand this important part of knowledge. So we are distributing not a system of religion, but a very important department of knowledge, which human society requires to understand. Don't take it that is a system of religion or faith. No. It is a important department of knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. ( japa ) Anything more you want? No. That's all right. (pause) Devotee: They want to know . . . they don't want to take any more of Prabhupāda's time . . . (indistinct) Karandhara: We can discuss outside. Prabhupāda: So I can go? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So thank you very much for your coming. Devotee: Thank you very much. (end) Conversation -- May 5, 1972, Kyoto Pradyumna: (reading from dictionary) "Chance." It's a noun and adjective. "1. The way things fall out. Fortune, undesigned occurrence, opportunity, possibility, probability. Especially in plural, as 'the chances are against him.' Absence of design or discoverable cause. Course of events regarded as a power, fate. 'By chance': as it falls or fell out, without design. 'On the chance': in view of the possibility. 'Take one's chance': let things go as they may; consent to take what comes." Prabhupāda: So it can be adjusted with the meanings of chance and necessity. I want something; that is my necessity. And it will come by chance? Or I have to endeavor for it, and then I get it? Shall I depend on chance? I have a necessity for something. So should I wait for the chance? Śyāmasundara: We've always been taught, "No. You must work very hard toward . . ." Prabhupāda: So where is the waiting for chance? There is plan. If I have to work to get the thing, then it is plan. Pradyumna: If they follow their philosophy to the conclusion . . . they would have to be completely dependent, if they followed the philosophy to the conclusion. Prabhupāda: If the chance comes as soon as the necessity is there, then we have to admit immediately God. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yes. Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā we hear, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam ( BG 15.15), God is in everyone's heart, as Supersoul. Now, I am thinking of getting something. So God knows immediately that, "He wants to have this," so He gives me the necessary thing, which appear to me as chance without knowing God. The things are supplied by God because He is giving me all facilities to enjoy this material world to my heart's content by supplying all the ingredients. That is the material condition. So these foolish persons are taking as chance, but it is not chance. God is omnipotent. As soon as He understands that I want this, He gives me some facility so that I get it. So it is not chance. It is by arrangement of superior authority. But because they are atheist, they have no sense of God consciousness, they are taking as chance, that necessity creates that chance; automatically it is coming. Not automatically. Chance does not mean automatically. I cannot see something, but all of a sudden falls . . . just like I am hungry, I want some food. So Kṛṣṇa knows it that you want some . . . some way or other, the food comes to me. So it is the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa, but I see it is chance: "I was hungry, and by chance the food has come." That is my less intelligence. It is not chance; it is plan. Otherwise, you cannot adjust the meaning of chance in that way, that as soon as there is necessity, immediately the opportune chance comes before us. Śyāmasundara: They say: "Well, it's my luck," or "My bad luck." Prabhupāda: Yes. They say. So this "luck," as soon as you say, "luck" there must be somebody who is giving you the luck, good luck or bad luck. Śyāmasundara: One man may desire something very badly, and his whole life long he will not get it. He will always say: "Oh, I am so unlucky." Prabhupāda: Because he is not fit to get it, so God does not supply it. So we do not take anything as chance. We take everything as plan. But because God's omnipotency is so subtle, we cannot see how things happen. Therefore we say: "It is a chance, chance of physical arrangement." Just like in the airport, as soon I step on the door it becomes opened. It is not chance. A child will see it is a chance: "Oh, how it is? I wanted to go, and the door is already opened." He takes it a chance. That is poor fund of knowledge. There is arrangement, nice arrangement, electrical arrangement. So to a poor fund of knowledge it becomes a chance, and to the sober mind it is not chance; it is arranged by higher authority. Another opposite point is nobody wants to die. Why the chance of death comes? Nobody wants to die. If that argument is taken, necessity—I want to die, and the death comes—then it is applicable. But I do not want to die. Why death comes? There is no necessity of my death, but why the death comes? Then where this argument will be? Śyāmasundara: Oh, there's no necessity. There's no necessity for death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die. So why death comes? Śyāmasundara: But they will say that because it is physically worn out, finished, material is finished, then it will die. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is a question of chance and necessity. Nobody feels the necessity of death. Why death comes, unless it is planned? Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Their argument is that physical necessity creates a chance, and we take advantage of the chance. But here there is no necessity. Nobody wants to die, nobody wants disease. Why these chances are coming to us without any necessity? Śyāmasundara: If, for instance, in nature they saw a tree growing, they would say that by necessity this tree must die in order to replenish the soil so more trees can grow. Prabhupāda: Then there is plan. As soon as you say that more trees can grow, that means there is plan. You cannot say chance. Śyāmasundara: Nature can't be chance. If so many plants . . . *Prabhupāda: That plan is Kṛṣṇa's. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My plan, under My superintendence, the nature is working. The changes of the world is going on for that reason." Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate : "All these changes are taking place on account of My supervision." So there is no question of chance. It is all planned, planned by the Supreme, daiva netreṇa , by superior arrangement. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't necessity mean plan? Necessity? Prabhupāda: Necessity means for a foolish person like me, I want something. That is my necessity, and God supplies me. "Man proposes, God disposes." And that reception, or that my achievement, being without explained by me, I take it as a chance. Because I cannot explain it, therefore I take . . . just like the same example: the flower is fructifying. We are saying because we do not see how the working is going on. Śyāmasundara: Like you defined "miracle" like that before once. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nothing like miracle. Everything is done. But it is done so, I mean to say, subtle way that we cannot understand. We take it chance. The same example—just like a child steps before the door, it opens. He thinks, "Oh, by chance the door is opened." But it is not by chance. It is a plan. Śyāmasundara: By necessity. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Necessity you have to go, and it is already done. And as soon as you step on the floor, the door opens. So those who are less intelligent, they are taking it as chance that, "I came here. I wanted to go out. The door is by chance open." That is less intelligence. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So before the necessity, there is a plan. Previous to the necessity there is a plan. I see. Prabhupāda: No, before the necessity, whoever will feel necessity, the chance is there, the arrangement is there. He knows that . . . just like there may be hundreds and thousands of necessities, and for each necessity there is a planned performance. Śyāmasundara: There is that saying: "Where there is a will there is a way." Prabhupāda: But we . . . you can think of this willingness in different hundred and thousands of ways. That is known to God, and there is already plan. If somebody wills like that, the chance is given. This is plan. Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's right. Prabhupāda: Because God knows beyond this willing orbit, nobody can think of. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He thought that, "I can save myself by this way. I shall not die at night, in daytime, or I shall not die in the sky. I shall not die in the water. I shall not die on land. No man can kill me. No animal can kill me. No demigod can kill me." In this way he thought, "Oh." But still, keeping all the promises, he was made to die. So there is no such thing as chance without plan. Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of "necessity." It says that, "It is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action." Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be . . . God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. He thinks, "Oh, so . . ." (break) It is different types. (break) The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities. Bhūrijana: The difference is that the human living entities have higher intelligence because of their body. Prabhupāda: That is the question that, "Who has given you high intelligence and not to the rats and cats?" Pradyumna: You said in one place, "Man is the architect of his own happiness and distress." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is an axiomatic truth even by the modern man. Yes that, "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So as soon as there is work to make your fortune, then there must be a person to decide to give you a fortunate position. Just like in an establishment, so many men are working, but there is a president. He is considering the work file, "How this man has worked?" And he is being promoted, his salary is being increased; and somebody is degraded, no promotion, rather, transferred in some other place. So natural conclusion is when there are so many varieties of life in our presence, and they are, although in the same place, they haven't got the same facility, so there must be somebody who decides on this point. So how you can deny God? Our point is the Supreme Person, the president, who decides on this fact, He is God. What is the opposite answer? Pradyumna: They would say that you are in your position and they are in their position just by chance, just like . . . Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. This is sheer nonsense. There is nothing by chance. What is that chance? By chance one is becoming millionaire, and a chance, one is becoming cockroaches. What is that chance? Explain that chance. It is evasive. It is most foolish reply, "Chance." We have got this nice apartment. Is it by chance? Pradyumna: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Bhūrijana: There's never an example of chance. Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. People are befooled by all this philosophy. Bhūrijana: Albert Einstein, he said that, "I cannot believe that the highest material principle is chance." He's a material scientist. He said: "I cannot believe." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Actually, if one is actually learned, scientific, he must admit. He must admit, unless he is a lunatic, rascal. He will say all these nonsense things, "Chance." Why chance? What is taking place within your practical experience by chance? If by prearrangement we would not come here, then who would care for it? Even on the street we could not lie down. Nobody allow. The police will arrest: "Who are these men?" How do you say chance? Everything is done by prearrangement. The chance is an explanation given by the rascals and fools. They are not sane men. There cannot be anything by chance. We got up on the train, and the train is running, and it is all chance? There is a huge management behind the train. Therefore we are comfortably seated, and we come to the destination right in the time. All these are chances? What is that . . .? He has written such a big book. What is his reason that chance? What reason he has given? I have not read. You have read? Pradyumna: No. Śyāmasundara: Well, necessity . . . necessity . . . Prabhupāda: Necessity means I arrange. There was a necessity to come to this city, so he arranged. So how it is chance? Śyāmasundara: They would . . . their answer is that there was a necessity to go to the city, so we would have tried hundreds of different ways to come here, and by chance, eventually we would have found the . . . Prabhupāda: No. We have not tried hundreds of others. There was a plan. Sudāmā: But even where does . . . in my mind, if I hear the word "chance," where does chance . . . how does chance come about, if there is such a thing? Prabhupāda: No. The rascal says that I am trying in so many ways; one of them by chance becomes favorable. But I am not working in so many ways. We had a plan, to come here, to preach. So according to that plan, we arranged with this man. And it is not chance; it is all prearranged. Where is that I am trying this way or that way? We are going to preach. There is a plan. So our men go before that, before my reaching there, and they make nice arrangement, nice apartment. Then they receive me. These are not chances. This is all prearranged, plan. Bhūrijana: They say that . . . but they don't acknowledge the plan. Prabhupāda: Why they don't acknowledge? Everything is being done by plan. The rascal who is speaking like that, he is educated by a plan, by his parents. And therefore he is able now to talk nonsense and get the Nobel Prize for talking all these rascals. His education was planned. Sudāmā: Just like his book was planned, so now he is given the Nobel Prize. He won't say: "By chance I won." Prabhupāda: Yes. His plan to misguide the people, that is a plan. Bhūrijana: They say that change is the principle. They say that change is the highest principle, and out of so many different changes . . . Prabhupāda: No. How the change takes place? *Bhūrijana: Change. Change. C*-h-a-n-g-e. Prabhupāda: Change, I say. How the changes take place? You are changing. You are changing from your childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So there is a plan. Unless there is plan, why one child is not, by chance, becomes immediately old? What the nonsense will reply? Let the rascal reply this, that here is a chance, that one child immediately becomes old man, by chance. Why there is process? This is plan. So you should have depth of knowledg, otherwise you will be carried away by these rascals. We cannot be carried away by these rascals. We never so easily believed that they are going to the moon planet. You see? *We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is Brahminical qualification. A Brāhmin will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A Śūdra will accept, because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between Brāhmin and Śūdra . It is not a caste system. It is classi . . . guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali*-yuga everyone is Śūdra , so he does not know what is the actually Brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done? I am as good as he is, and why he should be called Brāhmin , he should be given greater facility?" *So actually it has happened so. A so*-called Brāhmin , caste Brāhmin , he is working his intelligence like Śūdra , and he is claiming, by birthright, Brāhmin . There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ . Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes Brāhmin . That is the injunction of the śāstra . Kṛṣṇa says, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ . You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a Brāhmin ? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga . He never said: "By birth." Never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ . "In this age, Kali-yuga, all Śūdras ." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the Śūdras . Śyāmasundara: Cheaply and at once? *Prabhupāda: At once. Yes. The newspaper said that, "Mr. such*-and-such went to moon planet." Oh, immediately believe. See? A newspaper, ten-cent-worth newspaper. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva vratā devān (BG 9.25): "One who can . . . one can go to the demigods' planet by worshiping them. You can go, yānti deva vratā devān , as others. Similarly, one can come to Me by worshiping Me," mad yājino 'pi yānti mām . So they never worshiped Candra, and how they can go to the Candra planet, moon planet? Then Kṛṣṇa is false. Kṛṣṇa is imperfect; they become perfect. They are defying Kṛṣṇa's instruction. They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest. Sudāmā: They have not gone. Prabhupāda: They have not gone. We have got our test. I am speaking from the very beginning, "They have not gone." And practically you see, even if you have gone, what utility you have made? They are simply planning, again planning. "We shall get petrol from there. We shall have defense from there." Simply bluffing. Simply bluffing. The Americans should go to the moon planet to defend his country from the Russians. Just see. And we have to believe all these nonsense proposal. What defense they will do from there? Is it not the proposal? Yes. Śyāmasundara: This morning you were saying that civilization means peace. So this is no civilization. Prabhupāda: This is no civilization. Bhūrijana: We must become convinced. Prabhupāda: Thing, so Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said: *Jaḍa*-vidyā , this material advancement, jaḍa vidyā , they are simply stumbling blocks for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The more one is enamored by this so-called material advancement, the more he is disqualified to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because time we have got limited. If we waste our time for so-called material advantages, then we spoil our time. We cannot utilize the time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is the necessity of human life. Therefore, in the history of India there is opulence, but that opulence is of different kind. By nature they used to enjoy life—enough jewels, enough gold, enough silk, enough food, enough metals. You see? By natural product. They could find where there is a big hill of gold only. These are there. And actually gold is found in some mine within the material arrangement. Why there should not be any hill of gold? As there are hills of stone and marble, why not gold? You do not know. Your utensils are only plastic, which is worth nothing. So that was their material advancement: gold, silver, jewels, corals, sapphire, diamond. Just see Kṛṣṇa's palace described. Not these rascal chairs, cushions, but with ivory, gold. And the cushion is as soft as the foam of milk. (laughter) These things are description there. And the rooms are bedecked with jewels. You don't require this electric light at night. And outside, these parijāta flowers. You have read all this? *Pradyumna: Mandara*-kuṇḍa. Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo, Kobe, in Japan . . . there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working, and they are living in this nice buildings. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not? Bhānu: It is true. Prabhupāda: Then where is your advancement? You supply everyone palatial building like this. Why they are living in the matchboxes? Why they are eating cats and dogs? One thing, if you don't believe in God, then you give them. But you cannot give. Then who has given them? Nobody wants to live in the matchbox. Why he is living in the matchbox and you are living in a nice house? Is it all a chance? He is not struggling? He is not making his plan that, "I shall also live," just like the Communists. But he could not. We went to Moscow. They have no nice building made by the Communist people. All big, big, old buildings that is made, constructed by Czar. Not a single building I saw which was constructed by the Communist government. Śyāmasundara: They all live in matchboxes too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sudāmā: In Russia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you . . . even if you are able to give everyone nice building and nice motorcar . . . already a few motorcars you have got, there is scarcity of space, from practical point of view. Ninety*-nine percent of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motorcars, it has created problem—where to park the motorcar? How to supply petrol? Śyāmasundara: In America now practically everyone has a house and a car. But now the problem is no one wants to work. Prabhupāda: That's it. (laughs) Just see. And he is satisfied to remain as urchin, the hippies. Devotees: Yes. The sons. Prabhupāda: They feel pleasure to remain as an urchin. Sudāmā: As their father supplies them with money and motorcar. Pradyumna: He built this house, and this house had a very nice view over the whole place. But another man built another building here. And now the view is . . . right next to, he built this building. That's why this apartment is vacant. Śyāmasundara: No one will live here. The apartments are vacant. Sudāmā: He's losing money. Śyāmasundara: Someone has built in front of him. Pradyumna: He had view over whole city. This was the biggest building, I think, and he said he had view everywhere. Now someone built one right up, right next to him. Bhūrijana: In the United States, the most amazing thing is that everyone is envious. The general population is envious of the hippies because they all want to do that. The ones who are working so hard, they want to be the ones who are just getting fed and do nothing and enjoy sex. This is . . . but then when the hippies have it, they say bad things about them. Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not . . . Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all. Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification, and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising. Prabhupāda: That we have . . . we say in our śāstra that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs—better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. You see? Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately, "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification. Sudāmā: So better to become hog and dog. Prabhupāda: Yes. The hog . . . the hog has no restriction, mother, sister or anyone. You have seen? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: The child hog is raising on the body of the mother, although a child. They are so sexually inclined. Sometimes they are having sexual intercourse with the mother. So you take this facility. If you want better facility for sex life, just become hog. So nature is giving the facility: "All right, come on. You eat anything, without any discrimination. Here is stool. And you can have sex life without any discrimination, your mother or sister. Come on." Śyāmasundara: So the hippies have adopted that philosophy, hog philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They have sex life anywhere, anytime, anyone. Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many books, they are advocating that, "You can have sex life. It doesn't matter whether it is mother or sister or daughter. Why should be the restriction there? It is bodily necessity, that's all." They are advocating. There are so many books. You do not know? Huh? Sudāmā: Yes, there are. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are books. In India, what to speak of other, in India some European or American book was written on the theme that a man fell in love with his daughter. And that book is the greatest . . . highest selling book. What is that book? You know? Śyāmasundara: Lolita? There was one, Lolita it was called, about . . . Sudāmā: The same theme. Śyāmasundara: The same theme. Sudāmā: It was also very popular in America. *Śyāmasundara: One of the most popular books of all. Some man and a twelve*-year-old niece, nephew, daughter? *Pradyumna: Adopted daughter. Step*-daughter. Prabhupāda: Adopted daughter, niece, we have practically seen. I knew one man, Gupta. Gurudāsa met him in Delhi. So he was old man, about four years younger than me, very rich man. So I used to visit sometimes his house. He was friendly. So one day I saw one young girl. So I enquired, "Who is this young girl?" "No, she is my adopted daughter. I have no . . ." He had no daughters—all sons, grown up. "So I have no daughter, so I have adopted her as my daughter." I thought, "That's all right." Some day after, one day I went there, I saw that his wife was not there. So his wife has left home on some complaint. And then I understood that that man was implicated with that daughter. So the wife, under protest, has left. There are many rascals who open girls' schools with the contract with the head mistress that she will supply young girls. Convent school. This is going on. So all these greatness are terminating in sex life, and they are making arrangement, plan. And he says there is no plan. Even for his ordinary living he is making plan, and he says there is no plan. Śyāmasundara: So because they want better and better sex life, they have to compete and get better and better apartments. Because the nice girls will not go to the shabby apartment. They will only go to a nice apartment. Prabhupāda: Oh. Night girls. Śyāmasundara: Nice girls, nicer, more beautiful girls will only go to the most beautiful apartment. So there is competition. Sudāmā: Everyone is competing. Now the girls, they want handsome man, so man is trying to get his face fixed and buy new clothes and . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Trying to keep himself young. Sudāmā: Trying to keep himself young, yes. Bhūrijana: So we must propagate your message very loud. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhūrijana: Very loud. We must sing Hare Kṛṣṇa very loud . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūrijana: . . . so everyone can hear. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- May 12, 1972, Honolulu *Prabhupāda: . . . a giant demon who could, er, I mean to say—what is called?—draw, or shove, or push the earthly planet into the water of Garbhodaka Ocean. He is not an ordinary being. But although he was very strong, just like mountain, the example is given, the mountain is broken into pieces by the thunderbolt. Everything is there in nature’s law, and by Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement. Nature is not independent. Nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram ( BG 9.10). (This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.) We may not be amazed when there is a big thunderbolt falling on the mountain and breaking into pieces. This wonderful act is being done by nature, but behind the nature the order is of Kṛṣṇa. So whenever there is mention of an incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa, there is specific duty. This is the specific duty. This is not possible to be done. When Lord Rāmacandra, His specific duty was to kill Rāvaṇa and to construct a bridge over the ocean, this is not possible by ordinary man. Similarly, incarnation means something done which is not possible by anybody else. That is the test. So anyone, rascal, comes . . . but ordinarily, there . . . because people are so poor in knowledge that any magic shown, they think this is not ordinary thing: "I cannot do it." Little magical feats makes the incarnation. But not so . . . that is ordinary. If a magician can show something, and if another person exhibits the same talent, that does not mean he has become God. Suppose if one man can walk on the ocean—that is of course not very ordinary thing—but there are many big, big ships, they are also moving on the ocean. So that does not mean one has become God. Very extraordinary work. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . to pick up the whole earthly planet from the depths of Garbhodaka Ocean. There is other reason. So in this way, every day it is . . . our Bhāgavata is there, and the transliteration is there, word meaning is there—they should be read. Not that it is meant for simply selling. That we should also read. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: There are so many verses. We have taken so much pain to transliterate them, to give them word meanings and the purports, plus they must be instructed, discourses. Sanskrit, when pronounced, the vibration will create an atmosphere, nice atmosphere, Sanskrit. These are not ordinary Sanskrit; *they are mantras . Every verse of Bhagavad*-gītā , Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , they are Vedic mantras . The chanting of Vedic mantras has its effect. Just like chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has effect, similarly these mantras also chanted congregationally, it will have so much effect. So in the morning I think these classes should be held. (pause) (Prabhupāda sings) (SB 12.13.1) So, any questions? Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says here in the purport, "A similar disturbance was created formerly by the demons headed by Hiraṇyākṣa, and the earth was detached from its weightless condition and fell down into the Garbhodaka Ocean." "The great exploiter of the gold rush"? Prabhupāda: What is that "Gold rush"? Gold rush? Śyāmasundara: Gold rush means to exploit gold from the earth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are after gold. They created some disturbance. Hiraṇya means "gold," Hiraṇya*-akṣa : "Whose eyes are only on the gold": "Where is gold?" Hiraṇyakaśipu, there is no question of money and women, that’s all. They are demons. The whole world is now full of demons only. They are after money and women, that’s all. Woman does not mean this form of woman. A man also can become women. If the two parties, one party is trying to enjoy the other party, that is man and women. It does not mean the form of women and man. Just like nowadays, in your country, the homosex is also introduced. So people are becoming so much degraded—simply after money and women. Money and women. These are Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa. They will spoil the whole world. And they are spoiling. That is the business of the demons. And our business is to create Vaiṣṇavas in amongst the demons. In Vaikuṇṭha, sura-asura acutya . Sura and asura , both of them. That is Vaikuṇṭha world. Asura can also be taught. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). *These are asuras , very lowborn, less than the śūdrās, kirāta*-hūṇ . . . but they can be also reformed, śudhyanti . They can be reformed. That is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that just like Hiraṇyākṣa, mining, demons drilling for oil, disturbing the floating condition of the earth. What will the result be? Prabhupāda: The result will be destruction. Ultimately this material world will be destroyed. (aside) What is those? Two buildings? Devotee (2): Those are military radar. Prabhupāda: So there is no thunderbolt on the radar? Devotee (3): They put lightning rods. *Prabhupāda: Oh. There is lightning. So many ways, they are trying to save. But nature will not allow them to be saved. They must die. But the struggle for existence is that everyone is demon. The Vaiṣṇava, they do not attempt like that. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). *Dehāntara*-prāptir , another achievement or another body. So a Vaiṣṇava is not disturbed. They simply reserve the prerogative to become a devotee. Never mind—next life. Hundreds of lives there may be. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4): "Never mind, I will take My birth one after another." But the demons, they do not believe in God or God’s service or next life. These are the demons. They are thinking that this is the chance for sense enjoyment. Therefore they are trying to save in so many ways and engage the duration of life, as much as possible, varieties of sense gratification. This is demon. They don't know that after this body is finished, everything. So here is an opportunity to enjoy sense gratification. Therefore they are manufacturing so many varieties of sense gratification. They have no hope. And the Christian religion also says that they will go to hell or they will go to heaven. Destined. You have read Bible? Devotee: (4) No. Prabhupāda: So one is destined to go to heaven? Devotee: (4) They’re teaching that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (4) They’re teaching that. Prabhupāda: Ah. That one is destined? Then what is the use of taking to Jesus Christ if I am destined to go to hell? Govinda dāsī: You can be saved from going to hell. Prabhupāda: Hah. Then say that even though one is destined, he can be saved. That should be the philosophy. Śyāmasundara: He does. St. Paul does say that. He says it’s a mystery that although we are destined, still we can be saved. *Prabhupāda: That is reasonable. Taking to shelter of God or God’s son, one is saved. That is reasonable. But what is this philosophy that one is destined to go to hell, one is destined to go to heaven? This philosophy is not very nice. Just like we quoted one verse, kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda : these are destined to go to hell. But śudhyanti , by the association of pure devotees, they can be purified. Śudhyanti. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ, ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18). However sinful maybe, never mind what is the magnitude of the sinful activities, śudhyanti : he can be purified by the pure devotee. So that is real knowledge. And what is this, that one is destined to go to hell, destined to go to heaven? Śyāmasundara: (to another devotee) Do you have a Bible? Maybe you should bring it here. Prabhupāda: There are many. Aurobindo’s . . . Aurobindo’s philosophy is also like that: Once you get human form of life, then you don’t degrade. (laughter) Pradyumna: Hmm. Theosophists also think like that. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, theosophists. They are similar. Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . his point was that if someone was in third grade and they don’t pass, then they don’t go down to second grade, but they just stay in third grade, and they may go on to fourth. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pradyumna: If he is in a grade in school, he is in the first, second and third year of school, but if he does not go on to fourth year, he just stays in third, but he does not go back to second. But I . . . whatever they . . . therefore I always say that if someone in school, he may not go on to fourth, but he may be so bad that he’s thrown out of school altogether, what to speak of going back to second. *Prabhupāda: That is his creation—his concoction, his creation. But Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāpti : transformation of another body. So another body may be in the second class or third class or any class. Dehāntara . Never says human body. Human body is guaranteed only for the yogīs , those who are trying to advance spiritually. Their next body is guaranteed, human being. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41). *But others, dehāntara*-prāpti , another transformation of body. And that is confirmed also, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke (BG 8.6): *At the time of death the mental condition will give you another body. There is proof also, just like Mahārāja Bharata. He was advancing in spiritual life—he left his kingdom—but at the time of death he was thinking of a deer, so he became a deer. Such an advanced . . . of course, he did not forget himself. Therefore he was speaking always amongst the saintly persons, their association. He was remembering that "I was King Bharata. Now I have assumed this body." But the nature’s process is that at the time of death, whatever you think, you get a body like that. So how is again guaranteed? It is guaranteed for yogīs . Either jñāna*-yogīs, haṭha-yogīs . . . (indistinct) . . . yogīs , Their whole life they devote, maybe impersonal Brahman, so he can be merged into the impersonal feature of the Lord. Paramātmā. The yogīs , all kinds of yogīs , they are guaranteed next life. And all these yogīs , after many, many such births, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), he becomes a devotee. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ : such saintly person is very rare. Brahmaṇi pasamāsana : taking shelter of the Supreme. (pause) So, Govinda dāsī, how are you feeling? All right? Govinda dāsī: Better. Resting nicely. (pause) Prabhupāda: Their bricks are not so . . . not so, not eleven inches. They are eight inches only. Śyāmasundara: Yes, eight inches. Prabhupāda: In India the bricks are eleven inches . . . (indistinct conversation) Devotee (1): The bricks are brought in by boat. Very expensive to build things here . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is Americans who can develop such islands. Otherwise . . . Govinda dāsī: The other islands are not so developed. They’re very rural, very country. Except for a couple of cities, it’s all countryside and cows. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these are gardenias. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: These are gardenias. Prabhupāda: Oh. Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation) Śyāmasundara: You have got ḍābs right there. Govinda dāsī: They don’t use the coconuts. They pay people to come and . . . (end) Conversation on BG 6.11-14- Honolulu -- May 13, 1972 Prabhupāda: . . . and the cheaters come and cheat them . . . (indistinct) . . . here it is clearly stated: ( BG 6.11–12) *(To practice yoga , one should go to a secluded place and should lay kuśa *-grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth. The seat should neither be too high nor too low and should be situated in a sacred place. The yogī should then sit on it very firmly and should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses, purifying the heart and fixing the mind on one point.) *Supreme. The heart and the soul. Yoga is meant for that. Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ (BG 6.13). *That is come on, a straight line. Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ , neck. Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ : stand still. Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ diśaś cānavalokayan (BG 6.13): no, not even seeing any other thing. Praśāntātmā vigata-bhīr : and a happy attitude; *without any fear. Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ : con . . . fully celibacy, brahmacāri . *Vrata : not by name brahmacāri —by vow. No sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. Manaḥ saṁyamya mac-citto yukta āsīta mat-paraḥ (BG 6.14): *"In this way one should be engaged in meditation, thinking always of Me," mat*-paraḥ . *This is yoga . What is he has recommended? He can do whatever he likes. And haṭha*-yoga also, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , according to Kapila Muni, that is also yaṁa . Why? Immediately beginning, yaṁ, yaṁ, āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra , eh? Then samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . this means this man is cheating everyone. This man is cheating; *he does not know what is yoga . And because these Western rascals, they want to be cheated, they come and take money, and they think they are yogī . They are not yogī . Give them a challenge: quote these verses from Bhagavad*-gītā, Bhagavatam . One cannot manufacture a science out of his own brain. *Śyāmasundara: Is . . . didn’t you, er . . . I heard some quote from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam a while ago about . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam also. Give me that . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: "In this age, men will come . . ." Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gaurasundara: Something about in Kali*-yuga, men will . . . men will follow bogus teachers or something? *Prabhupāda: That is Kali*-yuga. So . . . (indistinct) . . . is all right. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: "Let us follow all bogus, and then . . ." Just like the people say, they are testing to do these things. Why do it? Why you are forbidden? They are the symptoms of Kali*-yuga. But one has to avoid them. Śyāmasundara: Huh. Yes. Prabhupāda: That we are teaching. In the Sixth Canto, first chapter . . . Śyāmasundara: Which verse? Prabhupāda: Verse number 12. Verse number 11, 12, 13. Fourteen also. There are so many. How many we have got. Śyāmasundara: Is there one that mentions the four pillars of sinful activities? *Prabhupāda: Yes. These four pillars of sinful activities: yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhāḥ (SB 1.17.38). Śyāmasundara: Which verse is that? There’s one where the king . . . er . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is First Canto. Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . (pause) Govinda dāsī: ( japa ) Prabhupāda: *Bhāgavatam* , First Canto, Seventeenth Chapter. Śyāmasundara: First Canto, Seventeenth Chapter . . . *Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter, thirty*-eighth verse. Śyāmasundara: Thirtieth? *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-eight. *Śyāmasundara: Thirty*-eight. Prabhupāda: (SB 1.17.38) When he was asked to go out, he said: (SB 1.17.36) "You are asking me to go out, so let me know what shall I do, because everything belongs to you. You asked me to go out of your kingdom, but everywhere is still your kingdom. So let me know, where shall I go?" (SB 1.17.36–37) "If you just designate . . . (indistinct) . . ." (SB 1.17.37) "I can peacefully live there, abiding by your order." (SB 1.17.38) *When he was asked by Parīkṣit to get him places, whether dyūtaṁ pānaṁ striyaḥ sūnā yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). *Dyūta: "Where there is gambling, where there is drinking, where there is illicit sex, and where there is animal slaughter—go there." Yatrādharmaś catur*-vidhaḥ . These four kinds of sinful activities are going on. And this is the whole world. Gambling and drinking, illicit sex and slaughterhouse. The whole Western world especially . . . no, everyone. In India also the same thing—but still less. Śyāmasundara: Much less. Prabhupāda: Still less. Still they are ashamed. But here there is no shame—shameless. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: (SB 1.17.39) (pause) Then he asked that, "It is very difficult for me to go to four places. Better give me one place where four things are there." (laughs) So: *Catur*-vidhaksa api etad ati danum deheti punar jāta-rūpam sauvarṇa . Then he gave him gold: "You take this gold, and one who possesses gold—all these four things are there." Śyāmasundara: (laughs) That's the whole key, because Maharishi is after money. Prabhupāda: That's all. Śyāmasundara: He can't get money unless he allows those things to go on. That can be the punch line in the whole letter. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (SB 1.17.40) So these five kind of sinful places are given by Parīkṣit Mahārāja to Kali. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: You can quote these ślokas . Śyāmasundara: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . make a copy. (indistinct conversation with Govinda dāsī) Govinda dāsī: You mean Prabhupāda’s? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Govinda dāsī: I don't know if I have it here, or if I have it in the . . . Prabhupāda: Well, you can get—all these ślokas . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Pradyumna: They want to get an English translation. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śyāmasundara: I want to put it in English also, so people can read it. Pradyumna: From the first three volumes translation . . . Prabhupāda: I think I have translated it already. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Pradyumna: They want to get the volumes, the three volumes. They don't have it here. Not here. They’ll get it from the temple. Prabhupāda: It is in the first volume. Śyāmasundara: Yes. They had it at the temple, so . . . Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Seventeenth Chapter means this may be in the third volume. Pradyumna: Third volume. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Third volume. Prabhupāda: These are already discussed. Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pradyumna: In one of those verses in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Prabhupāda: So all these GBC members, they must be well expert in explaining; otherwise what is the use of this writing, taking so much labor, books? They should go, preach, understand. And when there is difficulty, I am present. They are already explained. I am taking so much pain in writing books. If you don't read—if you simply make it for sale—then what is the use? Just these all rascals should be challenged vigorously. They are misleading the whole population, and blaspheming the Indian spiritual culture. People are depending so much on this culture for their upliftment, and they are blackmailing for money’s sake. People have to be . . . they want to be cheated, that's all right. But our business is to save them. Śyāmasundara: I thought you were saying that we shouldn't criticize these people in public. Prabhupāda: No, no. To criticize means . . . of course, when you are preaching, we have to show the real truth. And that is not criticizing. It is just like if you call a thief a thief. If you point out, "This man is thief," this is not criticizing. If I warn that "Don't mix with Gaurasundara; he is a thief," and suppose he is a thief, is it criticizing? We are saying that "This is the path of yoga system . . . (indistinct) . . ." Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Yeah . . . (indistinct) . . . we have to do this. Prabhupāda: "And this is not." So if we distinguish, "This man is thief and this man is not," then that is not criticism; that is speaking the truth. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Our mood should be objective then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: It shouldn't be personal attack. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now he has mentioned that, so you should point out . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . generously, what is actual yoga . Śyāmasundara: Very objectively: "Here is the right path . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: ". . . as enunciated by the authorities. This is his statement, so that you can see the difference." Prabhupāda: Anyway, criticize or not criticize, we have to give everything carefully. But our preaching must be to save the people from pitfalls. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Acyutānanda has done a great service. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: A great service, in Navadvīpa. And therefore he has been elected as secretary. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are appreciating. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, we shall preach. It is true that our authorities . . . always reading should be continually going on in our centers. These books, regularly should be discussed and preached: the ideal life of Kṛṣṇa, ideal gṛhastha , householder, what He is doing. Our gṛhastha is not condemned, but provided he is right gṛhastha . But Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. He is lying down there with Kṛṣṇa . . . they are lying down, and who can leave Kṛṣṇa? If one has got Kṛṣṇa . . . they know Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So they are embracing Kṛṣṇa. How much happy they are? Eh? Śyāmasundara: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: But still Kṛṣṇa gets out. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) As soon as the first cock is crowing. Prabhupāda: How much devoted, beautiful. They are select . . . spiritual, they are not material. Their bodies are not material bodies. Kṛṣṇa does not embrace a material woman. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: All these queens are spiritual. All the gopīs, they are spiritual. Ānanda*-cinmaya-rāsa-pratibhāvitābhis (Bs 5.37): and they are all made of ānanda-cinmaya-rāsa . So He is showing the life of a gṛhastha : early rising, giving in charity to the Brāhmiṇs , and living daily duty. Still, He has got children, getting children married somehow or another. So gṛhastha life is not bad—never bad. Kṛṣṇa is gṛhastha . Our worshipable Lord is gṛhastha . He’s not sannyāsa . Is it sannyāsa ? Why He should be? He is the supreme enjoyer, why He should be sannyāsa . . . sannyāsi ? Enjoyer . . . sannyāsī is not enjoyer. But His description is enjoyer. Now how enjoyer can be sannyāsī ? But He is still sannyāsī —renounced, everything. That is the point. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He has got so many enjoyable wives, but still, just at time, renouncing everything. Enjoyer, at the same time renouncer. Renouncement is also opulence. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. (*Viṣṇu Purāṇa* 6.5.47) He is enjoying, but He has no attachment for all these things—either for wife or children or this building or anything. At any moment He can give up. The gopīs, in a moment He gave up, went to Mathura. They began to cry and they wanted to stop the chariot, and so many things. He said, "Yes. Don't be agitated. I am coming, I am coming." Like that. And practically He never came back. He left at the age of 15, 16 years old, then He became engaged in fighting, being educated and marrying and becoming king and so on, so on. Once He came, Krsna and Balarama, once, when They had grandchildren. And once He came, Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma met the gopīs in Kurukṣetra, when they came—maybe I have mentioned already. When the cowherd boys went to see Him at Kurukṣetra battle, when they heard how "Kṛṣṇa, our friend, is fighting," they could see, "Oh?" (laughs) They were village cowherds men. They saw so many kings, so "We cannot enter." Śyāmasundara: Kurukṣetra . . . Prabhupāda: They could not forget Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Kurukṣetra is near Delhi somewhere? Prabhupāda: I . . . you were with me, no? When we were coming back from Amritsar. Syāmasundara: Yes. I saw . . . Prabhupāda: I showed you the Kurukṣetra station. Syāmasundara: Ah! Before Delhi somewhere. *Prabhupāda: Still the station is there. People go for pilgrimage. Kuru*-kṣetre dharma-kṣetre is proof. And they are commentating in that . . . actually, the name, still the name is continuing. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The station, actually station, people are going for pilgrimage. Śyāmasundara: Ah. *Prabhupāda: And they are commentating . . . (indistinct) . . . dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Śyāmasundara: In Vṛndāvana all the names are the same still—Gokula . . . Prabhupāda: Yamunā, Govardhana . . . Śyāmasundara: . . . and Varṣāṇā. Prabhupāda: Varṣāṇā name is recent. *Śyāmasundara: Ah, Nanda*-grāma . . *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-grāma is old. Śyāmasundara: Old. *Prabhupāda: Nanda*-grāma is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana, in the Vṛndāvana area, now they are divided. Rādhārāṇī was also born in Gokula. Śyāmasundara: Ah. They say She was born . . . Prabhupāda: No. Maternal, maternal uncle . . . Śyāmasundara: Her parents lived in Varṣāṇā? *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the spirit of Acyutānanda life is being challenged by these so*-called avatāras . He has dragged also Ramakrishna. Explain. Also our Govinda dāsī has done that. *Gaurasundara: Yes, she has done it also. Siddha*-svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gaurasundara: Siddha*-svarūpa. Dragged him into our camp. Govinda dāsī: (laughs) He was dragged. He was holding one very big meeting, and I went with two girls, two brahmacāriṇīs , and read your letter in front of his whole seventy, one hundred people—the letter where you denounced him. And he was hanging his head. And about five days later he joined you, after he got your letter. You know that letter you wrote? Do you remember it? Prabhupāda: I do not remember. What is the letter? Govinda dāsī: You wrote a letter . . . Prabhupāda: I told him, "Let us sing. Let us chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Gaurasundara: . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: You remember? It was a letter saying that "My disciples don't wear long hair, and they follow these regulative principles." You remember? Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Śyāmasundara: You remember? I think you wrote it in Surat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And so . . . he . . . it was nice. We distributed copies to all of the crowd. And . . . and . . . and . . . Gaurasundara: What did he say? . . . (indistinct) Govinda dāsī: No, he didn't say very much. He said: "Let me explain. Let me explain," or something like that. I think he was already thinking of surrendering to you. But the letter did it. Your letter did it. It was the final chop, you know, the final . . . Gaurasundara: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa said he had it planned for many months, but there was too much wrong . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, they can . . . (indistinct) . . . back. He can join. Gaurasundara: (aside) You’re leaving at seven? Prabhupāda: So preaching means read our books; follow this. Reference immediately you should give, reference, where it is. Why you are asking me, when . . . (indistinct) . . . what I am doing alone, now you have to do twelve times; then it will spread. Then each one takes another twelve. Then there will be no space for these rascals to flourish. We have got our books now. Print and distribute and preach, and bring the sunlight and the cockroaches will go away. (laughs) (laughter) They cannot do any more any infection. In the sunlight there is no insects, no cockroaches. In the darkness there is glowworms. Have you seen glowworms? You have seen? "Oh, there is light? What is that light?" Govinda dāsī: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Glowworms. So their light like that. The small . . . (indistinct) . . . glowworms, bring sunlight, then they will automatically go away. Kṛṣṇa—sūrya*-sama; māyā haya andhakāra (CC Madhya 22.31). What is the English translation? Gaurasundara: "Kṛṣṇa is sunlight, and māyā is darkness." Prabhupāda: That’s all. Bring sunlight, and the darkness will automatically go. (devotees pay obeisances) (break) (end) Conversation -- May 14, 1972, Honolulu Govinda dāsī: ( japa ) (testing microphone) Stop. (indistinct background overtaping) (break) Gaurasundara: (reading letter from Acyutānanda) ". . . Swami, I will come to speak end quote. He invited me to Burdwan…"? Prabhupāda: Burdwan. Gaurasundara: ". . . Burdwan, and will give me an English Koran, and I will present him with a *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*. They are just ready for that." Prabhupāda: Yes. Very good. Gaurasundara: "If Your Divine Grace writes to them, they will be very much encouraged." That he gives the address. Prabhupāda: Ha. Yes, I shall write. Gaurasundara: "This will help the preaching in Bangladesh very much. Last week I paid my obeisances to Dāmodara Mahārāja and touched his feet." Prabhupāda: And that's nice. I am… And he is satisfied? Gaurasundara: "He was threatening all the local people that if they attend our functions he would call the police. I met him on the road, and he immediately started shouting. Then I started shouting, and then he left Māyāpura for two weeks . . ." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gaurasundara: ". . . in which time everybody came back to the meetings, and now 250 to 300 men are taking prasādam ." Prabhupāda: Ah, he was not satisfied. He touched his feet, but still… Gaurasundara: Even after he started shouting. Prabhupāda: Then what can be done? Gaurasundara: (laughs) So Acyutānanda started shouting back. (laughs) And then he… Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, that Dāmodara Mahārāja. Nobody likes him. Gaurasundara: "And now there are 250 to 300 taking prasādam here every Saturday and Sunday." Prabhupāda: Very good. Gaurasundara: "Now we are friends again." Prabhupāda: Ah, Dāmodara. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ha. (laughs) Gaurasundara: "And I am afraid the man is mad." Prabhupāda: I guess he is mad. Gaurasundara: "He writes these very strange letters about Bengali history and trivia." Prabhupāda: His farce history. Gaurasundara: "Your servant, Acyutānanda Swami." Prabhupāda: I shall dictate all this. Gaurasundara: Yeah, we can do it in the morning. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Morning is best. Gaurasundara: Best time. Prabhupāda: So things are going nicely. Gaurasundara: In Māyāpura, very nice. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Gaurasundara: So when you go back there… Prabhupāda: Lalitā Prasāda Ṭhākura is in my favor. His men are giving little trouble. Gaurasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: This is the . . . Gaurasundara: And he doesn't want to . . . to offend his men. Prabhupāda: That is natural. Gaurasundara: So immediately you can fly from… When you go there you can go from this side to Calcutta and see how it is going on. Prabhupāda: So, we shall come again Hawaii? Gaurasundara: Yeah, Hawaii, Japan. Prabhupāda: Naturally. Gaurasundara: Australia. Prabhupāda: Hong Kong. Gaurasundara: (laughs) Hong Kong. New Zealand. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: His smile is very much revealing. Gaurasundara: (aside to Govinda dasi: You’d better start cooking) Prabhupāda: Not so many days. Two days, three days, like that. Gaurasundara: Hah. Instead of two weeks. Prabhupāda: So, short visit will encourage everybody. Gaurasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, we, our workers work hard and seriously and sincerely, this mission will, I mean, advance. There is no doubt about it. Because we are sincerely working. There is nothing bogus. Our Godbrothers have deliberately disobeyed my Guru Mahārāja. Gaurasundara: Ha. Prabhupāda: That is my charge against them. Deliberately. He never appointed an ācārya . First of all they appointed one ācārya , you see, and later on he proved to be a rascal. Devotee: Now they have several different ācāryas . Prabhupāda: Yes. That made the fracture, you see. Gaurasundara: Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gaurasundara: Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: No. Purī, Purī, Purī—another of my Godbrothers. He was duplicate (sic) number one. He was saying something on mouth, and . . . Devotee: Hah. Prabhupāda: So he was appointed ācārya . Whatever he may be, Guru Mahārāja never designated any ācārya . And the Śrīdhara Mahārāja, he was the principal man to support him. Gaurasundara: Śrīdhara? Prabhupāda: Ha. The Śrīdhara Swami from Bengal Maṭha. He made a great blunder, he and Professor Sanyal and Keśava Mahārāja. At that time he was, these three men supported, and he proved later on to be false. Actually this Tīrtha Mahārāja, he wanted to be ācārya . People did not like him, so they made another bad ācārya . (laughs) Why ācārya ? They should have continued the preaching work uncontaminated. What is the use of ācārya ? Sādhu will have come out automatically by working, but they did not. Propaganda. *Devotee: There is one group that accepts Bhakti*-saraṅga as ācārya also. Prabhupāda: So many. Devotee: They have a Maṭha right down the street from our Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: And they have a big marble plaque on the wall that says how he went on a tour, and he brought back his Australian disciple with him. *Syāmasundara: Lord Zetland and . . . it sounds from the plaque like he conquered the West. And he found his statue in Kensington Park, Kṛṣṇa*-mūrti. (laughs) Govinda dāsī: Lord Zetland? Prabhupāda: Let us not criticize others. Let us go on with our own work. Make your progress steady, you see. Where is that Australian student? . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Someone told you about that in Māyāpura, and you said that you knew the story that he had simply met a man on a boat, (laughs) and he brought him back and pleaded with him, "Please stay for two weeks at our āśrama ." And he came and stayed for two weeks and went away. Prabhupāda: He was coming without any disciples. He made friendship, (laughs) canvassing that, "You stay with us." And he canvassed that, "I have brought such Australian student." Like that. (pause) Now Ramakrishna mission will understand that we are their enemy. (laughs) It will be good propaganda for all this nonsense. (pause) Yes. Take this spectacles and give them. Gaurasundara: Pradyumna? Pradyumna: Can you bring in the electric shaver and the . . . (indistinct) . . . and Prabhupāda’s . . . (indistinct) Gaurasundara: Hey Syāmasundara. I thought you guys were going to wait for me? I thought you were going to wait for me? Syāmasundara: Coming? Gaurasundara: Well I can't come right this minute. Why can't you wait a few minutes? Syāmasundara: Better go? Gaurasundara: Why not? (end) Conversation -- May 26, 1972, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: . . . the crow and a peacock dance. Kāka*-mayur . There is a story. Do you know it? Do you know? The crow imitated a peacock. He got some tail feathers and put, (laughter) holding his head up, and began to . . . so that is imitation. *But if guru*-vaiṣṇava blesses, even a crow can become a peacock. That is the . . . there is vast ocean of difference between peacock and crow. Still, by guru-vaiṣṇava , a crow can become a peacock. Śyāmasundara: The other day I was hearing a tape, a philosophy tape, of you telling a story about a man who sawed himself off a limb. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: He cut himself off the limb. The sages said: "Oh, you are such a great fool, you should marry the queen." Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: But I forgot the end part. After Sarasvatī, Goddess Sarasvatī, gave him knowledge, then what happened? I can’t remember. Prabhupāda: Then he is coming back. Śyāmasundara: After he was given knowledge . . . then how does the story go? *Prabhupāda: Then he returned to his wife. So he was knocking door. The wife was very, very sorry that, "My husband is such a fool." And he began to write. Asti*-vada viśeṣa . Asti-kaścid vāda viśeṣa . The wife was very great Sanskrit scholar . . . (indistinct) . . . "Yes. I will write book." Then he began to write. She was very happy. *Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ uttpaparam toya*-nidhi avagāhya . . . (indistinct) . . . description of Himalaya. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ . On the northern side of the earth there is a big hill, Himalaya. Toya-nidhi avagāhya . He's touching both side, great oceans, sthita pratijñāna eva mana gandha . He is standing just like the . . . what is it called, weighing rod, two sides? Śyāmasundara: Balance. Prabhupāda: Balance? What it is called? Rod? Śyāmasundara: I know what you mean. I know what you're saying. Scale. Prabhupāda: Scale, yes. Standing like a scale, keeping the two oceans as balance. So I think the Arctic region, the Arctic region, where there is big mountain, this is mentioned here. Not that Himalaya. Himalaya means "the resort of the snow." Hima, hima means "snow"; alaya . So, uttarasyaṁ diśi , North Pole. Śyāmasundara: There is huge mountain. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Huge means that. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ, toya*-nidhi. Toya-nidhi , that is Pacific Ocean and Atlantic Ocean. Avagāhya —touching; *sthita pratijñāna —of the earth, scale rod, and taking these are two scales. These are the description of the North Pole. That means he had full knowledge of the whole world situation. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa , these four words which was uttered to his wife, asti . . . with asti , he began Kumāra*-sambhava. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . And with the verb, with this word he wrote Raghu-vaṁśa . He wrote this Kumāra-sambhava . . . (indistinct) . . . and śakuntalā . These four works are very famous of Kālidāsa. So when he turned back to meet his wife, he uttered first four words: asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa : somebody who is a master of language. Because he (she) kicked him. The wife kicked him. So he was going to die, and Mother Sarasvatī appeared. She prayed . . . he prayed very feelingly, that "Mother Sarasvatī, you did not do me any favor, so I am so fool that I have been kicked by my wife, so I’ll suffer . . . (indistinct) . . ." So Mother Sarasvatī said, "What do you want?" "I want to be learned scholar." "Whatever you speak, that will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go back. Don't . . . (indistinct) . . . I give you blessing, whatever you will speak, that will be learned." Śyāmasundara: So those four words, what do they mean? Prabhupāda: The four words, when he came back, he was knocking the door. His wife come and said, "Who is that?" So he replied in Sanskrit, asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . So she was surprised at the words . . . (indistinct) . . . "I kicked him out; now he's speaking in Sanskrit. How is that?" Śyāmasundara: What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Oh, asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa : "Here is standing something, personified language." Śyāmasundara: Ohh. (laughs) Ah, that's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somebody who is personified language. So, "Are you speaking?" "Yes." Then he began to write books with the four words—four books. Śyāmasundara: And each book began with one word, with one of those four words? *Prabhupāda: Hmm. With asti he wrote Kumāra*-sambhava , birth of Kārtikeya. Kārtikeya is known as Kumara. So how Kārtikeya was born, the story is written with the . . . beginning with the word asti. Asty uttarasyaṁ diśi himālayo nāma nagadhirājaḥ . Śyāmasundara: Oh, Śiva and Pārvatī . . . Prabhupāda: Then with bhāg , this word, bhāga ta pratipattaye. Bhāga ta pratipattaye . Śyāmasundara: Asti bhāg . . . Prabhupāda: Asti kāscit . Śyāmasundara: Kāscit . Prabhupāda: Kaścid vāda viśeṣa . *Śyāmasundara: Kaścid vāda viśeṣa. Megha*-dūta . . . *Prabhupāda: Megha*-dūta, Śakuntalā and Kumāra-sambhava, Raghu-vaṁśa. Asti kaścid vāda viśeṣa . So many scholars, paṇḍitas , poets are there in the mundane world, but they have no knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: Are these considered mundane poems? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Grāmya*-kavi. Grāmya-kavi . They are called grāmya-kavi , mundane poet. We read in our I.A. I have Sanskrit up to I.A. In the B.A. I gave up Sanskrit and I took history of the world, economics and philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . history of England. Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember you used to tell us all of the history in London—kings, all the kings . . . Prabhupāda: In economics I read your president's book, Woodrow Wilson, State. Woodrow Wilson, State, his book. Śyāmasundara: Philosophy? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Philosophy we studied Dr. Stephen's Metaphysics and Psychology. Śyāmasundara: And now you’re commenting on all of them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, at that time we did not read all these things. But there was reference to Aristotle, Kant, Percival. Percival. And then one Milt? Śyāmasundara: Mill? Prabhupāda: Mill, Mill, yes. John Stuart Mill. Śyāmasundara: That was on one of the tapes that was lost. Maybe we'll have to do that one over again. Prabhupāda: John Stuart Mill was big name. Śyāmasundara: Yes. British. Prabhupāda: And Aristotle. (pause) *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the nitya*-mukta , a person who it says in the Bhāgavatam sees the . . . (indistinct) . . . form, he sees the variegatedness of the material world . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): He sees . . . he thinks that . . . he doesn't . . . he thinks the variegatedness of the material world, that is just produced of illusion, nescience. The liberated soul . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is. We Vaiṣṇava philosopher, we don’t say false; we say temporary. Why we shall say God's creation is false? We don’t say that. Huh? Devotee (2): We're got exactly the verse . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī philosophy. No. Why shall I say creation of God is false? That is insult. If some Māyāvādī philosopher comes that, "Oh, you have created this Kṛṣṇa consciousness institution. It is all false," so what shall I think? "What a nonsense, that I have worked so hard, and after you say something . . . (indistinct) . . . he says false?" I’ll not be very much happy. Similarly, God's so nice creation, why shall I say false? And if He is true, why He shall create false? That theory we don’t accept. We say that it is temporary. Temporary, illusory. Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Huh? Means? (break) (end) Conversation -- May 28, 1972, Los Angeles Girl: I didn't check. I just poured it in. Prabhupāda: You check after giving it? This is not . . . Girl: How can I distin . . .? Prabhupāda: How is that? Eh? Girl: I didn't know. Prabhupāda: Yes? Girl: It's my fault because I wasn't conscious of what I was doing. Prabhupāda: It is your fault but is it grievous fault that you put something instead of something? Girl: What can I do? Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: What can I do now? Prabhupāda: How it was done? What is that thing you put? Girl: Salt. Prabhupāda: Salt? Girl: Yes. It tastes like it. Prabhupāda: Tastes like. You know that it is . . . that was salt? Girl: Well, I didn't know. Prabhupāda: So somebody responsible should be in charge. That way instead of salt something may be put. So many people cooking is going on. All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- June 4, 1972, Mexico (conversation with Martin, a Marine Biologist) Prabhupāda: Marine biologist. How many forms of fishes are there within the ocean? I know. I know. (laughter) Martin: That is why I'm here. *Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousands of different forms of aquatics. Nine hundred thousands. Jalajā nava*-lakṣāni (Padma Purāṇa). Jalajā means species of living beings born in the water. They are nine hundred thousand. How many you have got experience in your biology? Martin: I studied one. Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: I studied one. Prabhupāda: One only? Martin: One. (laughs) I, I concentrated on one. I learned of some of the . . . (indistinct) . . . (sound of thunder), maybe a thousand. Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousand. Exact number. (aside) Bring that socket. Pradyumna: Oh, this? *Śyāmasundara: That two*-way. It's on top of the desk. *Prabhupāda: Jalajā nava*-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati . And two millions of trees and plants, botany, botanical. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati , kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā. Insects, there are eleven hundred thousands forms. Kṛmayo rudra-saṅkhyakā . Then, pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam . From insect, they become flies and birds. Pakṣiṇāṁ daśa-lakṣaṇam , one million. Then from birds, the beasts come, four-legged, triṁśal-lakṣāṇi : three million species of beasts. *Then from beasts, the human form comes—either from monkey or from lion or from cows. Out of these three . . . sattva*-guṇa , rajo-guṇa , tamo-guṇa . Those who are coming through rajo-guṇa , their last birth before human form of birth is lion. And those who are coming in the form ignorance, Darwin's father-in-law, (laughs) monkey, and ignorance. And those who are coming in goodness, their last form of birth is cow. So this is our scientific information from the *Vedas* . We haven't got to make a research. Everything is there. That is Vedic knowledge. They have got already everything written there. The astronomy, everything is written there, simply you have to calculate. Astrology, we say simply mathematical calculation: if the moon is in this position and the other stars is in this position, then the effect will be like this and the result will be like this. Like that. So you haven't got to make search or research. It is already there. Similarly, this Darwin's theory is there in two lines: Asati , asati means eighty; *catura means four. Eighty and four lakṣāṇi , lakhs , 100,000. Eighty*-four hundred thousand, that means 8,400,000. Aśītiṁ caturāṁs caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu . Jīva means living entity; *jāti means species. Jīva*-jātiṣu. Brahmadbhiḥ : the living entity is wandering, or transmigrating, from aquatics to trees, plants, then insect, then birds, then beasts. In this way, the last is human form of life. Brahmadbhiḥ . Brahmadbhiḥ , wandering. Puruṣair prāptaṁ , last he is getting mānuṣaṁ jiva . . . janma-paryāyāt , by the evolution of birth. Now this form is for understanding Govinda, God. The other forms, they cannot. So if in this form the living entity does not contact Govinda . . . contacting Govinda means surrendering unto Govinda. As Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate ( BG 7.19). So after many, many, many millions of births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That is our program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Martin: So there's something higher than human form? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The demigods, deva , deva*-tiryaṅ-narādiṣu (SB 1.2.34). Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings. Martin: Primitive cavemen? Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: Primitive cavemen? Prabhupāda: No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts. Other than. Martin: Oh, I see. (sound of thunder) Prabhupāda: But this human form of life is better than demigods' life, because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods." Is it not? Martin: The Indians thought. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Because they were better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then you get chunks. *That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in*-charge of that department is a demigod. Creation, Brahmā; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Śiva. Martin: How is the human life better than that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: How is human life better than the demigod? *Prabhupāda: Better than in this way, that just like here also in this mat . . . on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They're proud, puffed*-up for material opulence: "Uh. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us enjoy, drink." *That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle*-class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very higher standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget. Not forget; they are servant. Just like government servant does not mean a devotee. So they are devotee, officially devotee. *They, they offer their obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. Śiva*-viriñci-nutam (SB 11.5.33), worship by Lord Śiva or Lord Brahmā, but their devotion is conditional because they're posted in such high post, so they may remain in their post. In this way, exchange. But in the human society you'll find devotees, there is no question of exchange; it is simply love. (sound of thunder) Martin: These demigods are what we call angels? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: So how does science fit in with all of this? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Let him speak. Martin: This is why I'm here. I know science . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? So he can . . . Martin: I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling. Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: It's just the empty one half of the world. Prabhupāda: Scientist business is he can become a great devotee. Just like: (aside) You sit down. Why you don't sit down, like that. *Yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. Idam hi puṁsa , sviṣṭasya . . . tapa . . . sūktasya tapasaḥ . If you are scientist, scientist means you are learned, learned scholar. You know; you've heard from the books so many things. So your duty will be that whatever you have learned, you try to explain all these scientific research work as qualification of the Supreme Lord. Any scientific law, just like law of gravity . . . (aside) You are following? Devotee: Si , si . *Prabhupāda: Law of gravity . . . the big, big planets are floating in the air. Now you can explain how it is floating. The hint is already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that He enters. Viṣṭabhyā idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat (BG 10.42), dharayani aham ojasam that, "I enter into this universe, and by My prowess they are floating." These hints are there. Now you are a scientist; if you are actually devotee, then you try to explain from your scientific explanation that this floating is possible because God has entered within it. That is your duty. And because you're scientist, your explanation from the scientific point of view, how God has entered, how He is acting, that will be very well received by the public. So that will be great service. Actually that is the fact. It is already stated there that, "I enter." We can understand. Yes. We believe. I'll explain. Just like that balloon. What is that gas? Hydrogen gas? Martin: Helium. Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: Helium gas. Prabhupāda: Helium gas. So helium gas has entered within the balloon, and it is floating. (laughter) So if the helium gas can float, cannot God float? If helium gas has so much power, the God is less than helium gas or He is more than helium gas? So what is the difficulty to understand? God says: "I enter." So similarly, the helium gas enters and it makes possible that it floats. So where is the difficulty to understand? I see in my eyes. So He can become big helium gas. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8): "I am the taste of the water." Water is important. We are drinking water for the taste. That taste is Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, if you explain this law of gravitation which we have discovered is Kṛṣṇa, prove it by your scientific knowledge, that will be your service. Actually that is the fact. That is the fact. But you have to explain, just like I have given you this example. This is scientific. As you can float a balloon by creating helium gas, so there must be some gas like that; Kṛṣṇa enters into each and every planet or universe and it floats, that's all. They, not only the planets are floating, the universes are also floating. So you accept this theory or not? If not, clearly explain. Martin: I, I, I cannot reject it. Prabhupāda: That's . . . Martin: Because you know more about it than I do. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Martin: You are obviously a wise man. *Prabhupāda: That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ (BG 4.34). Those who are tattva-darśiḥ , those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them—that is direction in the Bhagavad-gītā —not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, tattva-darśiḥ . Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender, then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient. *Just I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can . . . if you give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take . . . drink water, because there is peculiar taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst*-quenching taste is Kṛṣṇa. So immediately you can remember Kṛṣṇa, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). *There is no need of seeing Kṛṣṇa. You can perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā . You can argue, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? I do not see Kṛṣṇa. How can I . . ." Kṛṣṇa says: "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water, you know that taste is Myself." So you can see or perceive Kṛṣṇa while drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa's giving hints, "You worship Me like that." And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye to eye, but He can be perceived, anubhavānanda . What is that word? Parasya . . .? Pradyumna: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ . Devotee: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Parasyānubhavātmanam. Anubhavātmanaḥ . So at the present moment we can understand God by anubhava : "Here is God." The hint is given God . . . by God that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya , that "I am the taste of water." You cannot create this taste. You can make water, hydrogen*-oxygen mixing, but you cannot create the taste so that that water may be taken. Is it possible? Martin: It is possible to make water, and I rely on you to say that it is not possible to make the taste. Prabhupāda: That . . . just like from perspiration we are also creating water, but nobody is going to drink that water. Nobody is coming to lick my body, "Here is water." (laughter) That is not possible. Śyāmasundara: Even if they mix hydrogen and oxygen and get water, still, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the chemical comes? Such vast seawater, so where you got so much chemical? Then the next question, that "Who supplies the chemicals?" Martin: I've been there before. They all come down the same . . . they all come to the same place. You said that it is possible to see God eye to eye. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Martin: How can this be done? Prabhupāda: You have to be qualified. Martin: How can you be qualified? *Prabhupāda: This is the process going on in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You become devotee, you follow the rules and regulations, the prescribed method, you'll see God. You'll see constantly, twenty*-four hours. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti , premāñjana cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). If you have developed such devotion and love for God, then you will see always God. Just like if you have got a child whom you very much love, you'll see the child always in front of you. Always. It is due to love. So similarly, you have to develop love for Kṛṣṇa and you'll see Him. He can be seen by love, not by your method. He is not under any method, but He is under love. So you have to develop love, and then you'll see. (aside) There is no flavor? Is it any flavor? Martin: It's very faint. Śyāmasundara: Mexican incense. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: Christian incense. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so all science of God is described in Bhagavad*-gītā. Śyāmasundara: This morning you said that Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist because . . . because He is a scientist, then we can have our science, as a reflection Prabhupāda: Yes. The, ah . . . do you accept it He is the original scientist? Martin: I can accept the fact that Kṛṣṇa, being God, created everything which science studies now. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. That is the fact. That is the fact. So despite my becoming a scientist, I am a subordinate scientist. Our . . . my scientific research is going on under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Because the experiment which you are making in the laboratory, the ingredients, they are produced from Kṛṣṇa. The mind with which you are working, that is produced by Kṛṣṇa. And the direction, you are receiving from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you prepare something, that is Kṛṣṇa's production. Kṛṣṇa is indirect cause and you are direct cause. (aside to Śyāmasundara) The other day while coming on the plane you told me that they are trying to make copy of the brain of . . . Śyāmasundara: Einstein. Prabhupāda: Einstein. So still, if you can copy, even if you can copy, you are not the original scientist, because that brain of Einstein is already created. So original creation is God's. So you can imitate. So you are imitator scientist. (break) Is it not? Martin: It's true. Prabhupāda: Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a Xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men. If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind the professor has died. We create another person like." That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all, it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy, a Xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you have the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain. That you haven't got. You are trying to take Xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their . . . the shape is made after the bird. The original shape, bird, is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that? That is not possible. Then what is your credit? Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest. Śyāmasundara: And our big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane. Prabhupāda: That's it. You cannot create a male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Third millions. And again third millions, another million, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies. He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. Sa asṛjata , sa īkṣata . These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic, one television button you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening you see. So if it is materially possible . . . it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain. So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, param . Therefore He is called parampuruṣa , parameśvara . Parama means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Kṛṣṇa. But His brain is different. Just like you are scientist, your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which has no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than his—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone's and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God. How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best strength. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is God. Martin: But how can I know with my inferior brain . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Martin: . . . who has the best brain? Prabhupāda: That you can understand. Just like you are a scientist brain. You can do something which I cannot do. That much I must accept that you have got better brain. What is the difficulty? Martin: But . . . how can I know? Prabhupāda: You can know directly that, "He is doing better than me." What is the difficulty? I can see . . . just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us." Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act. So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me." Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding. *And the Vedas also advises that, "Go to a better man," śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), "one who heard better, and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and brahma . . . as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa," brahma-niṣṭham . These are the qualification of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things have to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master. Martin: But there are many spiritual masters in the world. Each says what you say. *Prabhupāda: Each says, but you have to judge. Just like when you go to purchase a two*-shillings'-worth goods, you go to different stores. Everyone says: "Oh, my thing is very nice." But you have to judge which one is best. That depends on you. If you are a fool, then somebody will cheat you. And if you are not a fool, then you will know . . . just like these rascals, they call themselves God. Such a fools can cheat another fool only. But one who knows what is God, he'll not accept it. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, he'll not accept him as God. He'll immediately compare, "What you have done like Kṛṣṇa or better than Kṛṣṇa then I shall accept you God? We have already our God, Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove that you are better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." That he cannot, so why I shall accept him God? Why shall I accept him spiritual master? That depends on your intelligence. If you are less intelligent, then you'll be cheated by this false God. So everyone has got intelligence, individuality, power of understanding, so you should try to use them, and then you can understand. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) I'd like to ask what do the scientists explain is the origin of life. Do they have any explanation how life is caused? Martin: Oh, the scientists concern themselves with the process, not the reason. They, right now, scientists are spending a tremendous amount of time duplicating this process, trying to be able to produce life in the laboratory. This now, they are saying that thus they will be able to say that this is how life started in the beginning of the world. It does not take . . . scientists don't concern themselves with why life started, just how, what method. Śyāmasundara: What do they think, how it started? Martin: Oh, they think life started by the effect of the atmosphere . . . Prabhupāda: Then the atmosphere is the cause. Now the next question is, "Who created the atmosphere?" (break) Martin: This doesn't . . . this is why I feel science . . . I do not feel . . . Prabhupāda: They have not found out the ultimate cause. They take a process which is going in the middle way, therefore their science is imperfect. But our science is perfect. We have found out the ultimate cause. The cause of all causes. Therefore our science is perfect. We have found out the cause of all causes. But the material scientists, they simply can look to the process, how it is working. Just like a child sees the machine, how it is working, but he cannot know who has produced the machine. Therefore we see the child scientist. (laughter) Not better scientist. Śyāmasundara: What is the definition of science? Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Perfect knowledge. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Martin: I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not know what is the meaning of science? Martin: No, I don't. Prabhupāda: Then why you call science? How do you call, "This is scientific"? Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen. *Prabhupāda: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ (BG 7.10). The seed of this rose tree is Kṛṣṇa. All kinds of seeds are Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, from one seed you'll find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. Another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or varieties of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Kṛṣṇa. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory a seed of . . . what is that tree? Śyāmasundara: Banyan? Banyan tree? Prabhupāda: Banyan tree. A small seed, very small. It contains the potency of a big banyan tree. You cannot create such seed. You create something, just like you are creating vitamin tablets. You are proposing that "No more eating required. You simply take some vitamin tablet." Is it not? Similarly, you create some tablet and sow it in the earth and big banyan tree comes. Then I will accept you. (laughter) Martin: You, you say that . . . (break) . . . who created this knowledge that this flower and the banyan tree is Kṛṣṇa. What place in the divine scheme do such great names as Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad have? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha, we accept him as incarnation, as expansion of Kṛṣṇa. He's Kṛṣṇa working as Buddha, Lord Buddha. Keśava dhṛta buddha śarīra (Daśāvatāra*-stotra 9). He has accepted body of Buddha. That is our conception of Lord Buddha. Martin: And Jesus Christ and Muhammad? Prabhupāda: Everyone. Martin: They were all the reincarnation of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: I see. *Prabhupāda: Yad yad vibhūti . . . any, anyone who is showing some extraordinary power, he is supposed to be incarnation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ mama tejo 'ṁśa*-sambhavam (BG 10.41). The brilliant energy. He represents the brilliant energy of Kṛṣṇa. And the energy is not different from the energetic. (aside) Hmm. What is that? Śyāmasundara: I just said that this is a very good sound track of your speaking—this chanting and rainfall (there is a kīrtana in the background). Prabhupāda: Yes. Martin: Can a true devotee come face to face with God through the teachings of Buddha, the teachings of Christ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Teachings of Christ, teachings of Buddha, they were meant for a particular type of men. Generally it is meant for everyone, but especially for a particular type of men. Just like Lord Buddha, he preached ahiṁsā . They were a particular type of men. Lord Jesus Christ also preached a particular type of men. "Thou shall not kill," that means they were killing. Is it not? If I say: "Thou shall not steal," that means you are thief, you are stealing. So a kind of preaching amongst the thieves and a kind of teaching among the philosophers must be different. That is the difference. Lord Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, Lord Jesus Christ was Kṛṣṇa incarnation, but they were preaching to a different type of people. Therefore you'll find difference of Lord Jesus Christ teaching, Buddha's teaching, Kṛṣṇa's teaching. Kṛṣṇa's teaching also there, which is already Buddha's teaching. But more than that, because the persons amongst whom He was teaching, they were far, far elevated than the thieves and the rogues. That is the difference. Just like I am pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, I am doing so many things which my . . . sometimes my Godbrothers, out of envious, criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, they'll simply criticize, "How he is acting." Find out some fault. Just like Lord Buddha was criticized by the Vedic brahmins , "Oh, you are stopping animal sacrifice? *It is already in the Vedas . Because it is sacrifice, the animal is also sacrificed, so how you can stop animal sacrifice?" But Lord Buddha, nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam (Daśāvatāra-stotra 9). Śruti-jātam . In the Vedas there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, but he began to deride. So his business was to deride the Vedic principles, that "I don't care for these Vedas ." Therefore Buddha religion was not accepted in India. He criticized. He criticized the Vedic principles. In the Vedic principles there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, and he criticized, "This is not good. Don't do this." Therefore it is criticism. Vedic injunction should be accepted as it is. You cannot criticize. Then there is no Vedic authority. So therefore he defied Vedic authorities. As such he was not accepted, strictly followers of the *Vedas* . But he has got a different purpose. *The ordinary man cannot understand. But one who is devotee, he knows that why he has done this. Therefore they offer their obeisances, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . A devotee does not accept the philosophy of Buddha but accepts him as incarnation of Lord Kṛṣṇa and offers obeisances. This is our position. We offer obeisances to Lord Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . This is our study of knowledge. (pause) Śyāmasundara: What class of men did Lord Caitanya teach among? Prabhupāda: Those who accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Śyāmasundara: Preached among the devotees. *Prabhupāda: His preaching begins from surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Kṛṣṇa upadeśa is that Kṛṣṇa is asking everyone to surrender unto Him. So one who has surrendered unto Kṛṣṇa, he can understand Lord Caitanya's teaching. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). He begins His teachings from the point when one accepts that "I am the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śyāmasundara: This chanting process is directed to everyone, or just those who . . . Prabhupāda: No, everyone. By chanting he'll come to this point. When his heart will be cleansed, then he will come to this point to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We initiate a person, not that he is already on that standard, but we are educated him . . . educating him by the process to come to that standard. Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyāsa ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyāsa initiation? It doesn't necessarily mean he's a controller of senses, is that right? Gradually he may rise up to the standard Prabhupāda: Yes. No. A sannyāsī is already qualified. Then we are . . . (indistinct) . . . sannyāsa . The first beginning is chanting. If he follows the regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, that is his qualification. And by that process, he'll come to the point of full surrender. And then we give him the second initiation. And when he's actually engaged in the service of the Lord heart and soul, then we give him sannyāsa . Śyāmasundara: Do you have any more questions? Martin: No, no. You've more than filled my cup. Prabhupāda: What is that? Martin: You have filled my cup. More than filled. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (break) Śyāmasundara: I have one question I wanted to ask you. In Hawaii you said that the ocean was necessary in order to make the rain fall on the land, as a reservoir for fresh water, and that the salt was there to preserve the water from becoming bad. Prabhupāda: So? Śyāmasundara: So such huge body of water is required? Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: The oceans cover how much of the earth? *Martin: Three*-fifths. *Śyāmasundara: Three*-fifths of the earth's surface is ocean. So that much is required to water two-fifths land? Prabhupāda: No. The ocean is gradually . . . the water is required. Water is required. In our India, if somebody spends extravagantly, so it is compared with water: "Oh, you are spending like water." (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 14, 1972, Los Angeles (conversation with musician John Fahey) John Fahey: I think I made twelve in total. Twelve that I know of. Two that aren't out. Prabhupāda: What you play? Marilyn: I just, er, um, I cook. Prabhupāda: Hmm. John Fahey: Oh, I saw you play the dulcimer. Marilyn: I play the dulcimer. Prabhupāda: What's that? Marilyn: Dulcimer? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Dulcimer. Karandhara: What's that? Marilyn: It has strings, four strings, and it's shaped like that. Prabhupāda: Oh, just like tambura. Karandhara: Tambura. Prabhupāda: Like tambura. Devotee: It's more like a vina . . . (indistinct) (break) Prabhupāda: So you understand our philosophy? John Fahey: I don't know if I understand it, I'm reading it. Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is your philosophy? John Fahey: I don't know. Prabhupāda: No philosophy of life? Why you are living? John Fahey: I don't know. I was just born. Prabhupāda: Born—everyone is born. Cats and dogs are also born. They also live, they also die. So if we live like that—"I was born. Let me live somewhere, and die"—then what is the difference? John Fahey: None. Prabhupāda: No. There is difference. That one should understand. There is difference. A man should not live like cats and dogs, because he has got a mission. John Fahey: Mission? Prabhupāda: Mission. That mission is God realization. Cats and dogs cannot do it; human being can do it. Therefore in any civilized human society, there is a type of religion. May be Christianism or Muhammadanism or Hinduism or Buddhism—there is. But you cannot find this religious system in the animals life. That is the difference. If you give up this religious consciousness, or God consciousness, then we are as good as cats and dogs. That is the only difference. You go anywhere, any part of the world, civilized human being, they have got a system, which you may call religion or philosophy, to understand God. That prerogative is specially for the human being. But if you do not care for that special prerogative, then you are as good as animal. What is the difference between animal and human being unless he has got some method of understanding God? The animal eats, and we also eat. The animals sleep, we also sleep. The animal have sex intercourse; we have got also. They are also afraid of something; we are also afraid of something. Then where is the difference? John Fahey: About God, you know. Prabhupāda: But that is the difference. A human being can understand what is God, what is my relationship with God, what is my duty in that relationship, what is my aim of life, where I shall go after death, wherefrom I have come. These questions must be there in human form of life; otherwise we are still in the animal kingdom. Marilyn: Do the animals have no consciousness of God? Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: Do the animals have no consciousness of God? Prabhupāda: They have no God consciousness. They do not know what is God. Marilyn: Somehow I always thought that . . . Prabhupāda: Just like children, they do not know what is government. They are satisfied with their eating, sleeping, playing, that's life. They have no other concern. But when one is grown up, he knows what is government. He has to abide by the state laws. Now you are grown up, if you violate the law "Keep to the right," you'll be criminal. But a child, if he violates the law, animal violates the law, he has no . . . But if a adult person violates the law, he'll be criminal. You cannot say: "I'm free." No. Law will not excuse. But if a children commits something . . . suppose you, if you take something from my table, it is for you criminal. But if a child takes something from my table, it is not criminal. In your country especially, if you enter my house or room without permission, that is criminal. Is it not? Trespass. John Fahey: Yes. Prabhupāda: But a child or dog enters, that is not trespassing. A child or a dog or cat, they enter without any permission. Therefore this animal kingdom and the human being, there is difference. By the evolutionary process we come to the human form of life. When we were animals . . . we were animals also. You are passing through 8,400,000 forms of life—from aquatic to plants, trees, then insect, then flies, then birds, then beast, then uncivilized human being, jungle, then come to this Āryan form, civilized form of human being. So it is obtained after many, many transmigration. And if we do not understand the responsibility . . . just like in an establishment one man, he is promoted. His first joins as a doorkeeper, then he is gradually he is given promotion; he may come to the post of the manager. Just like in bank it so happens, they must go through all the different stages of service. So when he becomes manager, if he does not know the responsibility, then again he comes to the lowest position; again he has to strive for going up. So if we forget our responsibility and become like cats and dogs, then we are going back again to take the forms of cats and dogs. This is a great science. Nobody is very serious to understand this science, but the science is there. We are . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people about this science. They're neglecting this science. That means they are violating the prerogative of the chance, of the facility of human being. After all, you have to die; you cannot check it. But if you die like cats and dogs, then our life is spoiled, and if you die like a human being, then our life is perfect. Everyone will die, but one who dies like a human being by understanding what is God, what is my relationship with Him, how I have acted in relationship with God, then our life is perfect. (pause) So, you like this philosophy or not? Marilyn: Somehow I always thought that people should be more like animals, because animals only, ah, only take what they need . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you become like animal? Marilyn: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Why you are dressing yourself? Why don't you wander like animal, naked? Marilyn: No. But animals still have their own communities, and they only take what they need to eat, and they only eat when they need to eat. Prabhupāda: Now the philosophy is how to become animal? This is the philosophy nowadays? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Today's people sometimes, Prabhupāda, she's thinking, are worse than animal, because . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. If their philosophy is to become animal then they must be worse than animal, because actually they are not animal. Marilyn: That's what I mean. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Prabhupāda: If the ultimate goal is to become animal, so that is artificial. So a human being desiring to become animal must be worse than animal, because animal has got some . . . Marilyn: Has got some . . . Prabhupāda: . . . routine work. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because, ah . . . Prabhupāda: Just like cats and dogs: they have sexual desire in certain period of the year. But a man, although he is trying to be animal, but he has no restriction. He has sexual desire anytime. Therefore he is worse than animal. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Man eats and kills everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The animals kill just their own quota. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So therefore, if a man wants to become animal, he becomes worse than animal. A tiger, a tiger eats meat, and he has got equipments in his body—it is called, nails, teeth—immediately pounce upon any animal and kills and eat. But a man cannot do that; but his teeth is different, he has no nails; therefore he has to kill animal in different way, by slaughterhouse. So he is worse than animal. You kill one animal for your eating purpose, this is one thing, but if you keep slaughterhouse for business, again more dangerous. Therefore for a human being to try to become animal is worse than the animals and because . . . just like you are now grown up. If you imitate that, "I want to become child, so I enter anyone's house," the law will not allow you. And if you say that, "My philosophy is to become a child, therefore I enter this man's house," the law will say: "All right, first of all you'll be punished." (laughter) You cannot say that. Because you are grown up, you cannot act as a child. Similarly, because you are human being, if you act as an animal you'll be responsible for your act, and you'll be punished if you do something wrong. You cannot say: "No, I have made my philosophy to become a child." That may be your personal philosophy, but law will not allow you. Ignorance is no excuse. (long pause) It has become a philosophy now to become like animal. Karandhara: They say "Back to nature." Prabhupāda: "Back to nature" means first of all your nature is different from others' nature. An animal can lie down anywhere on the street. Can you do that? So how can man go back to nature like that? A dog lying down on the street . . . here, of course, every dog has got a master. In India there are many dogs, though some got master, so they are eating anywhere or lying. But you cannot do so. If you lie down on the street at night, perhaps you'll be arrested. Is it not? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Neither you can do so. You must have an apartment. Maybe less costly apartment, but because you are human being you must have an apartment. So how you can go to the nature? Even the ṛṣis used to live in the jungle, they had a cottage, not like animals. They had hermitage cottage to live. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī's picture. You have seen? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they left their luxuriant residence as ministers. But when they went to Vṛndāvana, they had a cottage. Karandhara: I think the impulse is more or less a reaction to their alienation for material life. They feel so alienated from artificial material life that they think maybe, that simply more . . . they think animalistic would be more desirable. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The inclination may be right, but the spiritual education is lacking. They don't have the teacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Education. Prabhupāda: That is the defect of modern education. *John Fahey: Well, they go to college, and so this is where the idea started. It got bigger and bigger and bigger, and now it's out of control. It's terrible. It's all*-pervasive, to live like animal. I suppose I live like that, animal. I don't particularly want too or like too. I don't kill animals. Karandhara: Vegetarian? John Fahey: Now, yeah. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Karandhara: Vegetarian. Prabhupāda: Well, vegetarians are not animal. (laughter) In India, you'll still you'll find, ninety percent of the population, they're vegetarians, strictly. Always been. They're quite healthy; they're working. Rather vegetarians are human being. Because vegetable, that food is meant for human beings. That is natural. For a human being to become nonvegetarian is unnatural. And to become vegetarian, that is natural. So if you give up your natural tendencies as human being and take artificially the way of life of an animal, that is not natural. In human society the . . . however uncivilized human being, there is the process of covering this private part. Even in jungles they cover with the bark of tree. Why? That is the human. But animal in the jungle, they do not cover. They can go. The same jungle—I don't speak of the city life—even in jungle life, the aborigines, still they have got some cover. Now they are becoming naked, natural life, nudism. Huh? That John Lennon, he has a picture in his sitting room, standing naked. This is madness. That is not natural life. If you go against your natural life, that is madness. Just like a madman walks on the street naked. So these are . . . so our mission is to advise everyone, educate everyone to become exactly like human being. That you can become by understanding God. The books, educational institutions, are meant for human being, for knowledge. All the books, all over the world, they are not meant for cats and dogs. They are meant for human being. The schools, colleges, universities, institutions, they are meant for human being, not for the cats and dogs. So we must take advantage of these books, institution, knowledge, teachers. That is real human life. Just like your . . . guitar? Karandhara: Guitar, yes. Prabhupāda: That is for human being, art, not for the cats and dogs. So how you can go to animal life? That is not possible. (break) How do you know your father? John Fahey: Well, I met him. Prabhupāda: Huh? John Fahey: I met him. I grew up with him. Prabhupāda: How do you know your real father? Karandhara: How do you know he is your father, who you met? John Fahey: He just told me. Prabhupāda: Who told you? John Fahey: My father. Prabhupāda: Somebody told you. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The mother told you, or somebody told you. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And you accepted it. Similarly, about God you have to take information from somebody who is authorized to tell you about God. John Fahey: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Everything is known, can be known, from authorized source of knowledge. A child does not know what is this. He asks father, "Father, what is this?" The father explains, "My dear boy, this is Dictaphone. When I speak, it records." Child knowledge, he sees. That is the way of knowledge. If you do not know God, you must approach a person who knows God. Then you know. There is no difficulty. John Fahey: But I went to church, and I still don't know. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He went to church and he could not find out. Prabhupāda: That may be. John Fahey: They told, but I didn't feel it. Prabhupāda: That may be, but you may be cheated, that is another thing. Suppose you ask something from somebody. If he cheats you, that may be your mistake or his, but the process is the same; you cannot avoid that. If you want to know God, then you have to go to a person who knows God. You might have gone to a person who does not know. That is another thing. You went to a wrong person. But actually if you want to know God, you must have to go to a person who knows God. That you have to search out. That requires intelligence. But you cannot give up the idea. Because you have been cheated, "I could not get information," therefore you cannot give up that business. You have to find out somebody else. But because you say: "I have been cheated. I could not get the right information. I stop this business," that is not allowed. You must. Therefore, according to Vedic order it is said, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means he must (go) to a person to understand that science of God. You must go to a guru or a man who knows. Guru means who is more intelligent. Guru means weight, heavy, heavier, that heavier in knowledge. So you have to find out a person who is heavier than you, not ordinary. Must go. Not that may go or may not go. No. Must go. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. *And what is the symptom of guru ? Śrotriyaṁ . Means he has heard about God from his superior, his guru . Śrotriyaṁ . And how can I know that he has heard from his superior about God? He might say that "Yes, I have heard," but what symptoms I shall . . .? Brahmā*-niṣṭham. Brahmā-niṣṭham means that he has become a complete devotee of God, result. Just like a man, a physician. A physician means he has attended the medical college, passed the examination, and the result is that he's practicing as a physician. Not only passing will do, but he's actually passing and he's actually practicing and he's curing patients. Therefore you find out a physician, "Here is a physician." It is not difficult. *So guru means one who knows God. How can I know that he knows God? Because he's making others to know God. Where is the difficulty? But if you go to a person who does not know God, that is your fault. If you go to a physician who is not actually physician, a store*-keeper, then that is your fault. You must have the intelligence who is a physician. *That much intelligence you have got. You see a signboard, Dr. Such*-and-such M.D., medical practitioners. Now you go there and you see there are patients waiting for him, for his treatment, he's giving medicine and they are being cured. Then where is the difficulty to find out a physician? There is no difficulty. So if one is serious to be cured of the disease, he must go to a physician. If he does not go to the physician, how he can be cured? Just like you have learned the guitar playing. Do you learn it alone or learn it from somebody? John Fahey: Mainly by myself. Prabhupāda: Huh? John Fahey: Mainly alone. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have followed somebody at least, standard. John Fahey: Oh, yeah, people I heard. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the way of learning what is God. The main business is that one must know God. It is not that because I approach some person and he did not know, he could not give me the right knowledge of God, then I give up this idea of knowing God. No. That will not . . . that is not good for human life. Then you remain animal. I might have been cheated or I might not have approached the proper person, but that does not mean I can stop that idea. That is not . . . In another place it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam ( SB 11.3.21). One who is actually inquisitive to understand the highest benefit of life, he must approach a guru . Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. Jijñāsu means inquisitive. Śreya —the highest benefit of life. Uttamam —highest. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ (SB 11.3.21). What is the qualification of such a person? Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ : he is completely well versed in the transcendental science. And what is the symptom that he is well versed? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam : he has taken shelter of Brahma or Kṛṣṇa or God, upāsanā , finishing all material desires. These two things: he is a devotee, but he has no more material desires. He must be well versed in the science, he must be a devotee, and he has no attraction for material things. These three things if you can find, then he's perfect guru . Everything is there in the śāstra ; and therefore books should be consulted. If you have no books, those who are discussing books, you should approach them, you should hear them. Just like we are holding class morning, evening. People can come here, take advantage what we are speaking, then gradually they can understand. But we cannot avoid that. That is not good idea. If I say that, "I went to church. I was not very much enlightened; therefore I give up this attempt," oh, that is not good. John Fahey: Oh, I didn't give it up. I'm still looking. Karandhara: He comes for ārātrika . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Karandhara: He takes prasāda . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Very good. You also come? Marilyn: I just got here a little while ago. Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: I just got here a few days ago, but I've been twice. We'll be here Friday or Saturday or so. I chanted on the street. Prabhupāda: You chanted? Marilyn: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Saṅkīrtana party. Prabhupāda: Very good. John Fahey: We want to get some cymbals. Cymbals. Marilyn: Cymbals. We sang Hare Kṛṣṇa on the airplane. Prabhupāda: You're chanting on the airplane? John Fahey: Yeah, it was fun. Prabhupāda: You can chant anywhere. There is no restriction. There is no special rules and regulation. You can chant anywhere convenient. Whenever you find it convenient, you can chant. John Fahey: We were singing Hare Kṛṣṇa, so . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Go on singing. (laughter) Yes. Go on singing, and everything will be revealed within yourself, it is so nice. Marilyn: It's a comforting feeling. Prabhupāda: Huh? Marilyn: It's a comforting feeling just from the whole repetition. Prabhupāda: Yes. So go on chanting, then everything will be all right. John Fahey: Can we get some cymbals? Prabhupāda: Whenever you find opportunity, you come and join with us. John Fahey: Can we get some cymbals? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. John Fahey: I don't know where to get them. Prabhupāda: (aside) You don't have any cymbal for selling? Karandhara: Not at the moment. Prabhupāda: So, you can keep some stocked. Karandhara: Yes. We've been waiting for shipment. They haven't arrived. Prabhupāda: You can give him loan. He's anxious. You can give him this small one. You take this. John Fahey: Thank you. (sound of karatālas ) Prabhupāda: I'll show you how to do it. Like this. (loud playing of karatālas ) One, two, three; one, two, three. (showing how to play karatālas ) It is not difficult. You are musician. Just play on meter: one, two, three; one, two, three. John Fahey: Thank you. Prabhupāda: For everything you have to learn from a guru. (laughter) Even for how to play. (more laughing) John Fahey: Like that? Prabhupāda: Yes: one, two, three. (more playing of karatālas ) John Fahey: Boy, those are nice bells, I mean cymbals. (playing more) Oh, boy. Thank you. Prabhupāda: So sit down together whenever you find time, one, two, three, play, and Hare Kṛṣṇa chant. John Fahey: Okay. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Prabhupāda! John Fahey: Thank you. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Thank you. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: What is your name? John Fahey: John Fahey. Prabhupāda: John. Karandhara: John. Prabhupāda: Your name? Marilyn: Marilyn. Prabhupāda: What is? Marilyn: Marilyn. Karandhara: Marilyn. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 15, 1972, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: . . . past misdeeds, and this man cuts your hand, he creates another misdeed. In this way we become bound up by one deed after another. Karma*-bandhanaḥ . Śyāmasundara: So by this tampering of bodies they’ll become more and more entangled. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. First of all whether that . . . will be able to do so . . . (indistinct) . . . and even they are able too . . . Śyāmasundara: They’ve already done some . . . made some progress like that. Prabhupāda: What is that progress? They cannot create even an ant. Śyāmasundara: No, like changing the chromosomes and gene structures they’ve mutated bodies. Just like there was a . . . few years back there was a drug called Thalidomide, which was given widely to pregnant women. It was supposed to help them, but it turns out that it mutated many babies. It changed the cell structure in the womb, and they all came out without any limbs—born without arms and legs. Prabhupāda: That much harm they can do. That's all. Without arms and legs they would come? Śyāmasundara: It was a mistake. They created some drug which made babies being born without arms and legs. So they will be able to change bodies, that's . . . Prabhupāda: But change bodies cannot, because we have several times explained, that after sex the two kinds of secretion, they mix and emulsify, and it forms into a body like a pea. Then the pea grows. Now by medicinal process you can stop growing the hands and legs. Devotee: Yet they have mistaken whatever was supposed to grow that they would grow, they would take up the next step. So if an arm was supposed to grow that day, and she took that Thalidomide, the arm wouldn’t grow. The next day the process would continue to grow. So something would be missing from that day that the medicine was taken. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the growing condition . . . just like a seed is fructifying, but if you add something it may not fructify. Śyāmasundara: What they’re trying to do now is, in a tube, a glass tube, they recreate the conditions of sex life. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. What is the credit there? Why they are foolishly trying that? That is my proposal. Śyāmasundara: Well, their just simply curiosity . . . Prabhupāda: Suppose if they can create a living entity within a test tube, what is the credit there? There are so many living entities. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond natural law. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: They can never go beyond . . . Śyāmasundara: The only use ultimately would be destructive. They’ll be able to ruin everything. Prabhupāda: And that they’re doing. They’re expert in doing it. Devotee: They can’t help it. How can they help it? Prabhupāda: They’ll create more chaos, that's all. Śyāmasundara: Even if they create fifty Einsteins. Einstein invented . . . Prabhupāda: If you . . . even if they create . . . what Einstein has done? Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb. Prabhupāda: What is the gift of Einstein? Śyāmasundara: The atom bomb. Prabhupāda: The atom bomb? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Einstein is worshiped because he has given atom bomb? That's all? Śyāmasundara: One of the things that they’re trying to do now that the space administration has spent millions of dollars already, they’re trying to create a cross between an animal and a man, which will have a human brain and an animal body composed of different types of animals, so that he can survive on other planets. Prabhupāda: So our Nṛsiṁhadeva is half, nṛsiṁha : half man. (laughter) So what is the credit there? We have already got. We worship. Anyway, we are not going to give any credit to these rascals. Śyāmasundara: No, let them do it first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever they propose, we have already got. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can we say, Prabhupāda, that all these efforts are due to the perverted nature? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Māyā . This is called māyā . They forget their real business, and they apply their brain in some nonsense activity. Childish. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But their nonsense is imitation of some kind of Absolute. Prabhupāda: Nonsense. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Their nonsense is an imitation, a perversion . . . Prabhupāda: Imitation is that the Absolute has got creative power, and they have got the creative power, they’re using it pervertedly. That's all. That creative power . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: From where do they get these ideas? Prabhupāda: This creative power . . . the ideas, any, a child can have, many ideas. Ideas, that's not going to be . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t there a perfect form of these ideas in the spiritual world, which originally these perversions came from? *Prabhupāda: The perversion came from the idea. I have already explained. In the spiritual world the creative power is there. They can create anything they like. That, that is . . . that what they create, that is all*-blissful and pleasurable. And there . . . this creative power here is used, whatever they create, that creates misery. That's all. That is the difference. Because it is perverted. It is perverted. It's like perverted, you can understand in this way. *Just like a tree is standing on a bank of a river. Now the top of the tree is reflected down. Just like in Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with the gopīs. That is parakīya*-rasa. The atmosphere is that the gopīs belong . . . they are wives of other, but they have come to Kṛṣṇa. This parakīya-rasa . *Parakīya*-rasa means enjoyment with others' husband or others' wife. This is called parakīya-rasa. Sakhya means "married," and parakīya means "extra." There, this parakīya-rasa is the supreme. And here, this parakīya-rasa is the most abominable. The parakīya-rasa is there, but here it is abominable, and there it is supreme. Śyāmasundara: The top becomes the bottom. Prabhupāda: And the bottom becomes the top. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Similiarly, can we conclude that, for example, that if they have cars here or if they have bicycles here, or if they have any kind of facilities . . . Prabhupāda: No. Bicycle we have created, eh? Bicycles we have created, so the real thing is that we have got the creative power. As you are creating simply to become entangled. That creative power is being misused, and you are becoming more and more entangled. That is the problem. Now when there is question of creative power, there may be so many things created. The basic principle is creative power. You . . . not that because by my concocted creative power I’ve manufactured bicycle, there must be a bicycle. Śyāmasundara: Oh, I know. Prabhupāda: Not that. Śyāmasundara: They have other vehicles, the chariots . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. The chariots are nice thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But isn’t the bicycle a perversion of that chariot? In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Perversion it is, because you are . . . your ideas are perverted, you are creating some perversion which is useless there. They don’t create anything which has no bliss and knowledge. Here, everything is created under ignorance and . . . misgivings? Misunderstandings. That's all. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are . . . (indistinct) . . . inquisitive of change, by nature. The real scientists, of course, they’re completely under the control of the real consciousness . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . but in their thinking, they think that whatever they do is done by themselves . . . (indistinct) . . . being is controlling . . . from . . . a change of consciousness. From spiritual consciousness, they change it into material consciousness, so things become worse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: What about the . . . what is curiosity? What is that feeling of curiosity? Prabhupāda: Curiosity is inquisitiveness, "What is that? What is that?" Śyāmasundara: Is that present in the spiritual world also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Even there is, the answer is already there. Śyāmasundara: Even the answer is there, still there's curiosity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And then the original curiosity is the curiosity to know Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So what I’m trying to say . . . Prabhupāda: Original curiosity—everything in relation with Kṛṣṇa. Here also we’re inquisitive to know the material nature, and that is also Kṛṣṇa. But that is the external energy of the Lord. But they are the internal energy. Śyāmasundara: So they can go on forever and never find . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Illusory. Śyāmasundara: More and more complex. Prabhupāda: That is sung by one Vaiṣṇava poet: Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi. Ikṣu. Ikṣu , sugarcane, eh, and a stick is like sugarcane. So they’re chewing the stick, not the sugarcane. (laughter) Both looks the rod, pole. But here the unfortunate, they’re trying to get juice from a rod. They have no information of the sugarcane. That is also like rod. It is perverted reflection of that rod, and they're trying to chew it and get juice out of it. That is their rascaldom. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . if you . . . perverted rod you chew, thinking it that it is sugarcane, then where is the sweetness? Where is the sweetness? You are chewing a rod, and you are trying to get sweetness out of it. How it will be possible? That is a different thing. Ikṣu bhaviya manu kartacusi ke amane . . . (indistinct) . . . very good . . . that is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Śyāmasundara: There seems to be . . . Prabhupāda: And just like the snake is very cold, you know? Śyāmasundara: Cold. Prabhupāda: Very cold. Body is very cold. So one is very heated, and he takes the snake to become cold, and the snake bites—finished. It is like that: taking cooling effect from the body of the snake. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we say that your wanting cooling effect is all right, but your going to the wrong source, that's the mistake. In other words, the curiosity is all right, the idea is all right . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That creative force is there, so use that creative force for satisfying Kṛṣṇa. Then you’ll get credit. But here they’re using the creative force for satisfying their senses. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They’re going to the snake. Prabhupāda: Yes, senses. Therefore they’re suffering. There is the mistake. The creative force, the chemical knowledge, chemist or physist, they advance the creative . . . now they should use it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like chemist or a physist, by chemical statement they may prove that it is Kṛṣṇa, the original. Then that creative force will be . . . Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā . Here we also, we discover so many things by tapasya . It is also tapasya , that "These people are dying; we are going to do like that." That is tapasya . So they’re discovering something after many years' researches—that is called tapasya. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya , education; sviṣṭasya , gentle behavior. Sūktasya . All good things. Intelligence, charity—these are all good things, tapasya . Hmm? But how these things will be successful? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito : by kavi , by great sages, saintly persons, they have decided that by all these creative forces, you try to describe the Supreme Lord. Śyāmasundara: Describe. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The scientists can describe. A . . . (indistinct) . . . man, he's describing the Supreme Lord by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But a scientist, by his chemical research, by physical research, as they're doing, he, instead of getting a life in the test tube, nonsensical, if they make research and find out, the so*-called scientists and physists and chemists can understand through chemistry, by physics, Kṛṣṇa, that will be . . . perfect . . . they're researching, they're trying to find out the life within the test tube, but why not find out Kṛṣṇa? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is that possible, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not possible? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, I thought that the only way possible is through approaching guru and śāstra . Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything has to be learned by approaching guru , because guru is giving. I’m guru , I’m giving you instruction. But by your chemical knowledge you try to explain Kṛṣṇa. By your physical knowledge you to try to explain Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything. This chemistry, physics, mechanics, everything, that is manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's different energies. So when you have captured the energy, that through the energy go to the energetic, that will be success. That is nice. Śyāmasundara: You mean just . . . Prabhupāda: Then your learning of chemistry, physics and mechanics and whatever you are talking of, that will be required. But they are misusing, which is implausible. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But how could they, by . . . Prabhupāda: How could they, that is different thing. The instruction is that if you are researching something by your chemical knowledge, and if you’re trying to establish something, so instead of that nonsense thing, you try to find out Kṛṣṇa by your chemical knowledge. Chemical knowledge you can find out Kṛṣṇa. Why not? Śyāmasundara: Just like he was saying that there are four atoms that are the cause of everything: hydrogen, nitrogen . . .? Those four. So try to find out how those four are coming from Kṛṣṇa's energies. Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). This is chemistry. Is it not? Rasa , the liquid taste in water. Kṛṣṇa says: "I am." So now this water is the composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Now find out hydrogen, oxygen—Kṛṣṇa. Make this research. Ātreya Ṛṣi: But first he has to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa conscious is very, very high position. But if one wants to make his life successful . . . so here's chemist; this is a hint that this taste, the nice taste of water, is Kṛṣṇa. Now you prove it by chemical arrangement, or that experiment. Now Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the shining of the moon and the sun." Now you find out by physical experiment. This shining, there is a source. Now, the sun is the source, the moon is the source. Now try to find out wherefrom the sun came, who created the sun. Śyāmasundara: They’re still mystified that the sun can create so much energy and never be diminished. Prabhupāda: Yes. So who, who manufactured this item, sun? They also say sun is composed of these chemicals. So instead of trying to analyze this composition of the sun, find out wherefrom all these chemicals came, who manufactured. As soon as we say "chemical," it has to be manufactured by somebody. This research, that will make his chemical knowledge, physical knowledge, perfect. But if he wants to create something from globule, then it is a waste of his energy and misleading people. That he cannot. Śyāmasundara: They say that the chemicals came out of energy, came from sound . . . ah, vibrations. Prabhupāda: Yes, the energy. So that energy must be coming . . . the electric energy is coming from the powerhouse. So you have to find out wherefrom these energies are coming. I have got some stock energy by which I can lift this, is it not? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, wherefrom the energy is coming, the lifting and moving and everything? That is real research. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, I understood that man could find about the properties of things and how they’re related to God, but he could not connect to God with the ordinary process. The only way to connect was through hearing and submitting. So . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. At least one should be intelligent to understand that wherefrom the energy is coming. The answer is in Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). So our proposition is, Kṛṣṇa conscious, we know that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all things. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. Now, one who has become chemist and physist, he can prove this, that Kṛṣṇa is the original source of all. Then his knowledge of chemistry, physics, is perfect. But the people want to know through the modern science. So if one is real scientist, let him prove that yes, this energy is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: (to Svarūpa Dāmodara) It's your job. What is your field of science? Chemistry? What kind? Organic? Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Prove it, this rasa is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ : physics. "The shining, I am that." Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya , prabhāsmi . . . śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu (BG 7.8). "This sound in the sky, that I am." Then prove by physics and chemistry. That is wanted. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . Not to propose some nonsense things: "In future we shall do this and that." Śyāmasundara: I was just looking at this picture. They have created this machine through so much labor and thousands . . . and hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to hook it up to this lamb, this unborn lamb, like an umbilical cord. So they have created an artificial mother, so to speak, for this animal. Prabhupāda: What is the use? They are such a fool. What is the use? The mother is already . . . Śyāmasundara: Yes. The mother's standing there. The mother's in the pasture, right? Prabhupāda: Such a nonsense, spending money. Mūḍhā . Mūḍhā . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda is . . . *Prabhupāda: Yayā sammohito jīva ātmānaṁ tri*-guṇātmakam manute anarthaṁ (SB 1.7.5). Anarthaṁ . Anarthaṁ , useless things, any ways. Śyāmasundara: They get some . . . it seems . . . Prabhupāda: Already there is mother, and they’re spending millions of dollars to create an artificial mother. Just see. Śyāmasundara: There seems to be a natural propensity for man to enjoy putting two things together and watching them. A satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: That was creative. The creative force. Creative force. So God is creating. He has got the creative force, multi*-energies. So just like a child, a small child, a baby, he also take another baby, doll baby. It is like that. I mean it has no value. (laughter) It has no value. (laughs) It is like that. Śyāmasundara: We’re playing with dolls. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: And taking it seriously. Prabhupāda: Sometimes in your country, small children, they cook. They have got small utensils. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. My sister's son, when he was young, they’re cooking with a lamp, (laughs) and a small piece of dough, purī , and I was the guest. (laughter) (laughs) It is not cooked; simply dipped in the ghee . And I was to eat. Eh? Hot purī! It is like that. And it's nothing but enjoying. "Mother is cooking, so we shall cook." It is like that. God is creating. Lamp. "Ah, we shall create." Then that much credit, that's all. Childish. Śyāmasundara: Childish. Prabhupāda: Yes, childish playing. And foolish person, foolish man like me, he is eating that purī . (laughter) You see? So, these things are childish, and they’re enjoyed by the rascals and fools. That's all. It has no value. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists think that knowledge is given on by Kṛṣṇa, and whatever we do is for Kṛṣṇa. So they’re all trying to make something that they think that they are doing, they think that they are doing it for Kṛṣṇa, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, they must see that by doing that, that Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is it . . . that should be. Yes, we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa, but whether by that thing Kṛṣṇa is pleased, that is to be seen. That is bhakti . Otherwise, you cannot do without Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. The ingredients are Kṛṣṇa. The intelligence is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your hand is given by Kṛṣṇa. Your leg is given by Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa. But the credit is by doing something, when you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, then you will be successful. You cannot go within the boundary of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Just like the same thing: the children are playing mock purīs . So that is within this jurisdiction of the parents. They’re not independent. They want to play, "Mother, give me this little dough, I shall . . ." "All right, take it." "Give me little ghee ," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "All right." "Give me little lamp," "That's it." So it is not without the jurisdiction of the parents. But if by making the purī the mother and father or the guardian is satisfied, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is childish. Śyāmasundara: They please the parents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise it is childish. That's all. No value. Śyāmasundara: But why is there pleasure in creating something, in making? Prabhupāda: Pleasure in him, not to others. This creation will not please anyone else except that rascal. Śyāmasundara: Yes, but what is that in the act of creating something, say, even I’m a rascal, if I create something nice like this, how do I . . . why do I get pleasure from doing that? What is that pleasure? Prabhupāda: Pleasure? Śyāmasundara: By making something, creating something . . . Prabhupāda: Because you are active. You are living being, you are active. So by activity means you are living. That is pleasure. Śyāmasundara: If I create something like a poem or a picture, why do I get pleasure from that act, that activity? Prabhupāda: Because you have got senses. So your senses are satisfied that you have created something. By that sense satisfaction you are thinking you are satisfied. Śyāmasundara: Ohhh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is temporary it's not . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, sense satisfaction. Śyāmasundara: Oh, by recreating with our hands what our brain conceives . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, it is your sense pleasure, that's all. That is material. Śyāmasundara: Ah. It is part of the false ego . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . to think, "I am creating this." Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when you instruct that the scientists should use their science to discover Kṛṣṇa, could we, as your students, acquire scientific knowledge also . . . Prabhupāda: No. You don’t require to acquire scientific . . . whatever knowledge you have got, with that knowledge you try to please Kṛṣṇa. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: The main business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Now, because I am saying the scientist may do this for pleasing, that doesn’t mean that you have to become a scientist and then please Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you have got, please Kṛṣṇa. Ātreya Ṛṣi: For example, I have got a little knowledge of psychology. Prabhupāda: So you do that. Do that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: I can prove . . . (indistinct) . . . that, that man has scientifically . . . that man has a spirit, and that spirit is intelligent . . . Prabhupāda: Do that. Do that. That will be great contribution. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, can’t we study things like this in these classes as well? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, your aim is to prove the existence of Kṛṣṇa, that is nice. That is nice. That is the meaning of this verse I . . . *Uttamaśloka*-guṇānuvarṇanam . Psychology, how it is working by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's energy—if you can describe, that will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I think we will discuss one contemporary psychologist named B. F. Skinner. His basic theory is that everything is mechanical, that our psychology is a product of our conditioning. So we can tomorrow discuss that. I don’t have any other questions about science. (aside to devotees) Perhaps do you have any questions . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is modern Śrīla Prabhupāda. What is modern scientist . . . (indistinct) . . .? *Prabhupāda: Everyone is materially contaminated. Why the scientist? Everyone. Any living entity who is in this material world, he is contaminated. Everyone. Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair . You know this verse? Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair . Where is Pradyumna? You find out the verse from the index. Tribhir guṇa-mayair bhāvair . Śyāmasundara: Tribhi . . . *Prabhupāda: . . . guṇa*-mayair bhāvair. *Śyāmasundara: "T*-r-e" or "i"? *Prabhupāda: "i." Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair . Find out the verse. Devotee: Trividya ? Traividya ? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Tribhir guṇa*-mayair bhāvair. Tribhir . T-r-i-b-i-h . (devotees look for verse) (indistinct comments) Pradyumna: The translation: "Deluded by the three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance, the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible." Prabhupāda: This is the verse. What is purport? Pradyumna: "The whole world is enchanted by three modes of the material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. In this material world everyone is under the influence of these three guṇas and is thus bewildered." "By nature, living entities have particular types of body and particular types of psychic and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmins . Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas . Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas . Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras . And those who are less than that are animals or animal life." "However, these designations are not permanent. I may either be a brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya or whatever—in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, still, by the spell of this illusory energy, we consider ourselves in the light of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian or brāhmin , Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that men, deluded by these three modes of nature, do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Godhead." "There are many different kinds of living entities—human beings, demigods, animals, etc.—and each and every one of them is under the influence of material nature, and all of them have forgotten the transcendent Personality of Godhead. Those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, and even those who are in the mode of goodness, cannot go beyond the impersonal Brahman conception of the Absolute Truth. They are bewildered before the Lord in His personal feature, which possesses all beauty, opulence, knowledge, strength, fame and renunciation. When even those who are in goodness cannot understand, what hope is there for those in passion and ignorance? Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental to all these three modes of material nature, and those who are truly established in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are actually liberated." *Prabhupāda: So without being Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is in ignorance. And in ignorance, whatever you say, that is all loose talks. That's all. It has no value. Basic standing is ignorance. Not only the scientist—not only the so*-called scientist—everyone. They’re illusioned. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this, in this . . . most common people believe in so*-called scientific findings of scientists, because they think that science is going to change their fate—they’re going to make a nice house, science discovers something, it will give them . . . (indistinct) . . . very nice things. So all the scientists, the so-called modern scientists, they are, if they change a little bit their consciousness to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they can understand the condition of people thinking that scientists are going in the right direction, they are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Yes. If the scientist turn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the face of the world will be changed. Because: The leading personalities, if they do something, others will follow. That we want. You become a big great scientist, at the same time devotee, then people will follow. If we say something by hearing from you, that is secondary knowledge. But if you say directly you have got sound footing of scientific knowledge, that will be nicely followed by others. Whatever we say, we say on the strength of Kṛṣṇa's statement: "Kṛṣṇa says this," "Oh, yes." Just like Kṛṣṇa says: "Everything emanates from Me." Now if a scientist says in scientific language that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa, that will be followed by many persons. What is that verse? (pause) You have found? Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas ? Pradyumna: (Prabhupāda says along with him) "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." Prabhupāda: People are misled because the leaders are misleaders. Therefore just like this man: he is talking all nonsense, he's a rascal number one. Now, in the name of scientific words, this or that, people will be misled. That's all. Śyāmasundara: The leaders are giving him millions of dollars for research. Prabhupāda: Yes. Misleaders. So when I talked "misleaders" in that . . . (indistinct) . . . they were doing like that. (gestures) I told them they are all misleaders. They were silent; they could not challenge me, because they know they are misleaders. How they can challenge? They know their position that, "We are nothing." They are simply bluffing people, that's all. Just like a man who is a thief. If you challenge him, "You are a thief," he will hesitate to say "No." Right? And as soon as he remains silent, that means he's thief. If he is not thief, he will immediately say: "You rascal, why you are calling me thief? What I have done? Give me proof." That will be answer. But if he remains silent, that means he is thief. Maunaṁśamyati lakṣaṇam . If one remains after challenge silent, that means he says "Yes." The silent means "Yes." Śyāmasundara: So if we challenge the scientist and they cannot answer us . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: If we challenge the scientists and they cannot reply . . . Prabhupāda: They will reply, foolishly, "Yes, we are trying to find out. We shall do in future." This evasive reply. That is not reply. Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is they have no basis; they don’t know where everything came from . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. That is their defect. Śyāmasundara: They don’t know how it started. They don’t know where it's going. They just observe a little piece of it, and they say that, "This is what we are doing." (pause) Prabhupāda: Therefore knowledge means janmādyasya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), to find out the original cause. That is knowledge. Śyāmasundara: Original cause. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Brahmā says: "Here is original: sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam " (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ . Śyāmasundara: Once you said that science means to know everything about something. Everything about something. So practically there is no science. They don’t know. "Maybe," "Could be," "Perhaps." Prabhupāda: Yes, science means everything about. That is science. Now we know that. "Something" means Kṛṣṇa. And so far we understand from the śāstra , we can explain everything. Śyāmasundara: But they can’t explain anything about what they’re working with. It's all theories. Prabhupāda: Law of gravitation: the apple falls down. They find out, discover law of gravitation. But why the apple falls here—now find out this way, not that way. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: They say that the earth, the center of the earth, is iron, is mostly iron, and that makes magnetic field around the earth so that everything is drawn toward the center. Prabhupāda: But the tree grows in this way. What is that force? Śyāmasundara: It's trying to resist gravity. Growing means to grow against gravity. Prabhupāda: But why doesn’t it grow this way? The tree is growing this way. Why not this way? Śyāmasundara: Sometimes, if it is trying to get the sunlight . . . Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . (break) Śyāmasundara: . . . the law of least resistance. Prabhupāda: So change it. Grow it this way. Śyāmasundara: If they have to get the light, to the light, sometimes they grow like this. Prabhupāda: Then there is "if." Then is beyond your control. When you say: "if," then it is beyond your control. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. And nature is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore ultimate controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now they have manufactured this aeroplane, and the design is just like bird. They cannot make any other design and fly. The two wings must be there. Now fly your airplane without any wings. So all these Xerox copy, that's all. That is their credit—copying. And they are taking, by copying, the same childish play. By preparing something nonsense, you can make another nonsense. They are taking it, "Mother, I have done this. Mother I have done this." Mother says: "Yes, dance, dance, dance like monkey." (laughter) Mother knows what that is. This is going on. Śyāmasundara: So even make a little airplane out of paper and throw it, they think . . . Prabhupāda: Relative. According to my knowledge I throw it, that's all. And his knowledge is mechanical. But he does not know how many big, big aeroplanes and planets are floating in the air. That is creation of God. That aeroplane, so much mechanical element, and as soon as there is a big wind, "Fasten your belt." (laughter) When there is danger, "Fasten your belt." But this big lump of matter, earth, so much, I mean, bluster and so much air and wind, but we do not feel any trembling. But it is actually blowing. That's a fact. Śyāmasundara: Two thousand miles, around? Prabhupāda: And moving at one thousand miles per hour. They cannot understand. This is perfection. God never says: "Now a big blast is coming: fasten your belt. Fasten your belt." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Perfect arrangement . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pūrṇam idaṁ. This is pūrṇam , perfect, complete. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate . Why it is perfect? Because He is perfect. He is perfect. He is not . . . pūrṇam udacyate. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya : that perfect is so perfect, many millions of planets are created by His perfect energy, and still He remains the same. Not that He is finished, His energy is finished. No. He still remains perfect. That is perfection. Here in the material world, however perfect you may be, you go on conserving, retaining your energy, then you’ll . . . (indistinct) . . . I'll be old, I’ll become again finished. But that energy is never finished. The example is given, the touchstone. The touchstone, you go on touching iron, it becomes gold. But the touchstone's energy remains the same. Śyāmasundara: The magnet is like that, too, isn’t it? The magnet? It can touch so many pieces of iron, and they will all become magnetized, but the magnet remains the same magnetic. Prabhupāda: Its power . . . (indistinct) . . . or touchstone. Anyway, they are the material things only. And what to speak of Kṛṣṇa. Take the sun. How much energy and heat is coming for millions and millions of years. Where is the loss? Śyāmasundara: No loss. *Prabhupāda: This is material. You create something small. They have created this clock, one*-year winding, and we have to wind it three times a day, although it is . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: What is that? They say once a year? Prabhupāda: Once a year winding. And we have to take care of it three times a day. (laughter) This is nonsense. Imperfect. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, when Kṛṣṇa came, why did He break some of these rules? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Why did He break some of His own rules? Prabhupāda: Because He is God. Yes. He must do that. Otherwise how He is God? If He is under the rules and regulation, then He's man, He is a human being. Should break it. That is His body. If He cannot break, then He is under the laws, the laws are not under Him. So breaking the law is Kṛṣṇa's qualification. His qualification. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does . . . the end of the life of Brahmā, part of, could be also explained like natural laws? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like end of your life, similarly Brahmā's end of life, what is the difficulty to understand? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then everything else would all of a sudden stop in the material world? Prabhupāda: That we shall see . . . at the end of Brahmā's life. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: If we're here. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 18, 1972, Los Angeles Śyāmasundara: Mr. Sarda has some relatives in London, and he was . . . the relatives were trying to force the girls to go to Nairobi, and they still, they did not want to go. So they ran away to Bombay. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They went to Bombay. Prabhupāda: They have gone to Bombay? Śyāmasundara: Yes. So they are living in our temple in Bombay. The two girls. And this father wants them to come home for some reason. They don't want to come home. Prabhupāda: Hmm. I did not know all these things. Śyāmasundara: It's not very important. He can send a letter. So many . . . if you try to involve yourself with so many of these things . . . (laughs) There are so many things like this going on all over the world, and if you try to deal with all of them . . . Prabhupāda: So why they have gone to Bombay? Śyāmasundara: Because their parents were sending agents to force them to go off to Nairobi. So they had to escape. They wanted to go to India. Prabhupāda: So what is their objection to go to Nairobi? Śyāmasundara: They just don't . . . they want be . . . remain devotees. They say their father eats meat, and they violate all the principles, and they force them to stay away from the temple. Prabhupāda: Father eats meat? Śyāmasundara: They think that their parents will try to force them from coming to the temple. Prabhupāda: But how we can advise them not . . . to disobey their father? Śyāmasundara: No. I told Dhanañjaya that if his father . . . their father wants, then they should go to Nairobi. He called me to ask advice, and I said then they should go if their father and mother insist. And he said, "But they don't want to go. What can I do? I can't force them to go." So they ran away. They ran away to Bombay. I just found out maybe two days ago, and now they are in Bombay. That's what one girl said, who has just come from London. She said that they ran to Bombay. Prabhupāda: But they have gone to Bombay, that's all right. But his father is our . . . (indistinct) . . . if he wants that their daughters should come back, they should help. Śyāmasundara: So I asked him, "If you want to talk with me, I will relay the message, much easier," and he said: "No, no, no. Well, I want to talk to Prabhupāda." I said: "Well, can't you send a wire or a letter?" And then he . . . there was a long pause, and then the line went "click." (pause) Karandhara and I were just talking, and you know they want . . . these girls want to start that temple in Mexico, northern Mexico. But if so many things are happening as a result of too much expansion, why should we take more risk? Prabhupāda: No, that will remain for the time. Śyāmasundara: Don't open any more centers for a while. There are devotees together. (pause) You want to have philosophy class? *Prabhupāda: Mm*-hm. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) All right. (aside about someone on the phone call) Oh, okay phone call. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, that boy Pravīṇa*-candra has got those two books that you asked for. You want I should get them, the books on Indian philosophy? Should I get them? (pause) He also got one additional one. These are the two you asked for. Here is the additional one that he found. (pause) (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 24, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . to serve the Supreme Lord. America has got special advantage for serving the Supreme, and by the grace of the Lord you have got everything. Man's first necessity is arrange for eating, sleeping. Of course, there is nothing is to be arranged, everything is arranged already. But still, due to our ignorance, we are anxious for what we shall eat, where shall I sleep, how my sense gratification will be done, how my country will be defended. *Just like this morning we have seen in newspaper that eastern part of the country is inundated. So you cannot defend by nature's onslaught. When there is nature, you cannot defend. At any time within a moment, the whole thing can be finished. Nature is so strong. Just like here the Pacific Ocean is. One big wave six*-stories high, it can immediately over-flood. And to raise a wave of six-story high from Pacific Ocean is nothing. It can be done at any moment. And a six-stories-high wave, if it is coming the Los Angeles side, where you shall remain? Everything will be finished. So nature is so strong, you cannot defend. Although we call the word "defend". Defend, you can defend against mosquito or bugs, that's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Not against the onslaught of nature, that is not possible. So you can defend yourself from the onslaught of the nature by surrendering to God. Otherwise there is no way. So people should learn this art, how to surrender to God, then every protection is there. So, other countries they may plead, just like in India, people were completely dependent on God. Now they have learned to defend themselves by so*-called science, economic development, but the ultimate protector is God. Without His sanction, nobody can defend. You try for defense, you try or not try, if you are not defended, protected by God, nobody can protect you. This is nature's law. So by nature's law it is so made that everything is there complete. So we can depend on God and do little work and get our economic development complete. Anywhere, any part of the world you go, a little . . . you can produce very easily little grains, fruits, and if you have got cows, milk, your economic problem is solved. But if you want high roads, three dozen motorcars, three dozen slaughterhouse, six dozen naked club, that is different thing. That is different thing. But for your living condition, by God's arrangement, everything is complete. You haven’t got to endeavor, little endeavor. Just like you have to eat. The eatables should be there, you have to simply exert like this, that's all. Similarly, all things are there by God's arrangement, eatables. You simply exert this much, that's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you become God conscious, all your problems will be solved and you’ll be happy. All problems are solved automatically. Just like the animals, less than human being, whose intelligence is less than human being, they have no problem. Eating problem, they have no problem. They rise early in the morning (makes sounds like birds), the birds, and anywhere they go there are little fruits, they eat, that's all. And eating sleeping, they sleep nicely on the branches at night, very cool air. And sometimes when they lay eggs, they prepare a little nest, they put on the eggs say for two months. And when the, what is called, cubs? Devotees: Chicks. Little birds. Prabhupāda: Ah, little birds they have grown up, they have learned how to fly, they have no connection with home, finished. When the female bird is pregnant, they create some nest to lay eggs. At that time, they collect the sticks and do it nicely for their purpose. No use of skyscraper building. (laughter) Similarly, we can also build nice cottage. There are so many woods. Anywhere you can cut some tree and have nice cottage, till the ground, get grains and keep cows, gives milk, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is nature's arrangement. But we want to violate nature's law. Therefore, 50,000 men are being killed in auto motor accident in your country because you have got the largest number of cars. You must die, 50,000 a year. That is another nature's law. You are creating so many roads, flyways, one after another, one after another, one after another, still 50,000 men are being killed, is it not? So the more you want to be artificially happy, the more you create problem. This is law of nature. But we don’t discourage the material advancement, we don’t discourage. But we simply request that whatever you do, you be God conscious. Then you will be happy. This is our . . . (indistinct) . . . you do, you build nice house. Just like we are having this temple, 24 hours program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that does not mean we are lying down on the street. We are also having nice apartment, we are using this dictaphone, this telephone, electric fan, everything, but for the purpose of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other purpose. We are 24 hours engaged, all our men, simply for Kṛṣṇa's business. Similarly, whole thing, whole business, factory, anything that we have created for our comfortable life, they can be all engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then there will be happiness really. Now in spite of so much advancement in material comforts, there are so many frustrated youths. They are lying down on the street, on the beach, without any sufficient clothing. They think this is natural. I say, therefore, to my countrymen that you say that your country, or India, is poverty stricken so many men are lying on the street, they have no shelter, no food. But I am in a country, America, where is food supply more than necessities, why they are lying down on the beach? Just see. They have no want, there is no scarcity, and still they are like wretches. And the university, Hawaii University, all the students just like urchins, no nice dress. Everyone has come to become hippies. Why? They haven’t want. They have got nice fathers, rich father, rich grandfather, rich country, nice university building, but they are becoming frustrated, dressing like urchins, poverty stricken, artificially. Why? *So, therefore, our protection . . . the father does not want that his son or daughter should be so wretchedly dressed. But they dress . . . I have seen in Beverly Hills the hippies coming out from very respectable houses, must be his father very rich, having nice motorcar, but that torn dress. So this is the position, that if one is neglected by God, so despite all possession, he will be poverty stricken. Just like you are a rich man, your son is sick. You have engaged the first*-class physician, first-class medicine, and still he dies. What is the reason? From scientific point of view you are giving all first-class help, but why the child dies? That means these things are not only the cause of the child's protection, there is something else. That something else is God. Until His sanction, nobody can be happy, nobody can be peaceful. This is the law of nature. So artificially by materially, we cannot make ourselves happy. Then we shall find out happiness in that way. The hippies are finding out, lying down on the street, wretched dress, no regulative principles. They are thinking they are happy than their father. So in that way, everyone has got his own standard of happiness. That is one kind of happiness, but real happiness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. That is real happiness. *Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam ( BG 6.21), in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, the real happiness is uncovered by this material encagement. Now our happiness is covered. Take for example, you cannot enjoy sex happiness covered, but when it is not covered, that is happiness. Similarly, our present happiness is covered because we are covered by this material encagement. When we are uncovered of this material encagement, then real happiness is there. Sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyam grāhyam. That atīndriyam means super-consciousness, and super-consciousness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And that is very simple. *Now we are working for our own sense gratification, everyone is working. When you work for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, that is super*-consciousness. It is not very difficult. A child is whimsically thinking of his own happiness, but the father, who loves the child, he's working whole day and night to see how the child will be happy. His happiness is there. He wants to see his children nicely grown up, nicely fed, that is his happiness. But child is thinking that by eating dirt, I shall be happy. He is eating dirt. So our happiness, real happiness will be felt when we serve Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *You can . . . just like here in my room there is Kṛṣṇa's picture, we have given it a small, nice place to sit down, offering something to eat. This consciousness. Actually whatever we are offering we are eating our self, but the consciousness is that Kṛṣṇa is eating. This is wanted. Kṛṣṇa is not hungry. If we offer to Kṛṣṇa, He is self*-sufficient, God, He doesn’t require anything because His things we are eating. These fruits and flowers, it is not manufactured by me, it is manufactured by God, we are enjoying. So what is the harm if we simply admit, "Sir, it is your thing. You first take, then we shall take." How much nice this consciousness. To acknowledge His grace, His mercy. You cannot manufacture this flower, it is manufactured by Kṛṣṇa, by His intelligence. So why not offer first to Kṛṣṇa, then you take it. Or by the side of Kṛṣṇa, we put the flowers by the side of Kṛṣṇa and we see Kṛṣṇa beautiful, more beautiful with the flowers, His creation. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So everyone can do it, where is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? So you American people, you are intelligent, you are not poverty stricken. So you take this, try to understand, you take this and be happy. Why you are becoming hippies? Be happies. So we have come to give you something, not to bluff you that I give you some special mantra , give me my fees and I go away. It is not like that. It is something tangible we are giving. And those who are accepting, they are becoming happy. You have seen our temple, our temple? As soon as you go, you will feel some spiritual advancement immediately. (aside) So, it is better than dāl . Devotee: Oh, shall I bring this everyday then? Prabhupāda: Hm. You have seen our books? Guest (1): Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Kṛṣṇa . . . Guest (1): I have most of them. Prabhupāda: Read these books, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follow the regulative principles, be happy, individually or collectively. Great saintly persons in India, they would sit down underneath a tree and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , read these books, and they will forget their big post of ministership. That Rūpa Goswami, Sanātana Goswami, they were ministers in the government service. And they went to Vṛndāvana and lived underneath a tree, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading and writing books, that's all. Guest (2): How do you know which is the best path to follow? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (2): How do you know which the best path to follow? Prabhupāda: By practical experience. Atreya Ṛṣi: Best path. Prabhupāda: Best path. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the best path, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because people are becoming happy. From hippies they are becoming happies now. Therefore, it is the best path. They were confused, frustrated, now they have got hopes of life. Thousands of boys and girls, they are admitting that, "You have given us a life." Ask any of the students, they will admit. That is the best path. Guest (2): It is so confusing. Prabhupāda: Confusing for those who do not understand. But if he tries to understand with little cool brain, it is not confusing. The simple thing is to understand that we are under the laws of nature. Just like there is flood. Not only flood, another news was there, some, what is that? High jet, high . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: Highjack, highjack. Prabhupāda: Highjack. He has taken 500 thousand, 502 thousands of dollars by threatening the government. So this kind of miseries by highjack, it is called adhibautic . And the flood is called adhidaivic . Besides that, there is another misery which is called adhiatmic . Adhiatmic means due to your personal body and mind. Adhibautic means miseries offered by others. And Adhidaivic means miseries which is offered by nature. So these three kinds of miserable condition of life is always there. If there is no highjacks, then there is headache, mental anxiety. If there is no natural disturbance, there is highjack department, disturbance. *So either of these three, either three or two or one must be there always. This is your position. But it means you are controlled by the laws of nature. But these laws of nature is also controlled by somebody. Because as soon as you call "law", there must be somebody law*-giver or law controller. Just like in the state there is department of law and order and there is departmental head also, director of law and order. Similarly, the laws of nature are very strong, stringent, but there is a controller of. The scientists admit that they simply study the laws of nature but they do not know who has made these laws of nature. But we can say who is the maker of these laws, law of nature. That is the difference. Scientists, they are also trying, material science, to make you happy by different discoveries, inventions. But they have failed because they do not know, they are trying to overcome the laws of nature, that much. But they do not know who is the maker of the laws of nature. We know that we are suffering by the stringent laws of nature but if we surrender to the maker of the laws of nature, then there is relief. Just like a man by law, state law, he is ordered to be hanged, but he takes shelter of the supreme executive, president or the king, he can excuse. He can excuse from, for being hanged. Nobody can. The high court judge or the governor or so many, there are others who are executing the laws, they cannot excuse. By law he must be hanged. But if he appeals for king's mercy or the president's mercy and the president becomes merciful, he may be saved. Similarly, the laws of nature are very stringent, you cannot be saved. But if you take shelter of the person who makes the laws of nature, you will be saved. That is the best path. Is it not? Atreya Ṛṣi: What other alternatives do you see? Prabhupāda: You cannot get out of the laws of nature, that is not possible. (pause) And surrender to God, Kṛṣṇa, is also very easy. We have got this bag and chanting these beads, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. There is no expenditure, there is no loss. What is the cost of these beads, they are very inexpensive. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: You can chant. Atreya Ṛṣi: Isn’t Kṛṣṇa the purpose of all paths? Prabhupāda: Hm? Atreya Ṛṣi: Isn’t Kṛṣṇa the purpose of all other paths ultimately? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the objective. Atreya Ṛṣi: Every path? Prabhupāda: Somebody knows Kṛṣṇa, somebody does not know. Just as child crying for mother cannot express. He has no language, but he is crying for mother. One who knows, he brings the child or brings the mother together and there is happiness. The experienced man knows the child is crying for mother so calls the mother, or the child is taken to the mother and there is happiness. Although the child does not express, "I want mother", but he knows. Similarly, those who are expert, they know everyone is wanting Kṛṣṇa, but he does not know, he cannot express due to his ignorance. So: One who is experienced, he tries to combine Kṛṣṇa and the other. And actually he becomes happy as soon as he will come in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Is that alright? Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, you know or not know, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either being requested by us or by your conscience, you will be happy. Somehow or other if you touch the fire, it will act. So we are bringing everyone, trying to bring everyone, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And someone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is happy. Guest (2): What's the difference between chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and other forms of meditation? Prabhupāda: What is that other forms of meditation, I must know. Atreya Ṛṣi: Such as? Guest (2): Such as Transcendental Meditation. Prabhupāda: What is that, explain? Guest (2): Repetition of a mantra . Prabhupāda: So we are also repeating mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. Atreya Ṛṣi: But what does the mantra say? Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from. We are, this is mantra , Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difference? Guest (2): I don’t know. *Prabhupāda: There is no difference. The only difference is that the so*-called Transcendental Meditation is a special mantra , a special mantra ? Guest (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is not scientific. Science is not special for you, science is for everyone. Just like this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is for everyone. It is not special for any person, person, and secret. This is bluff. If there is something good in connection with God, that is open secret. That cannot be secret. God's sunlight is open for everyone. It is not that only rich man will get the sunlight who can pay for it. Sunlight is free and open to everyone. That is God's grace. Similarly, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is open for everyone, it is God's grace. This mantra should be meditated, then there will be perfection. Other things are bluff. That is the difference. One is genuine, and the other is bluff. That is the difference. You wanted to know the difference. The difference is this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is genuine and any other thing, that is bluff, cheating, that's all. This is the difference. One is genuine, and the other is bluff. Why it is genuine and what is that bluff? That bluff, some especially for a person. That is not God's gift. God's gift is open to everyone without any charge. The example I have already given, the sunlight. Sunlight is not meant for the rich, the richer section of the city. It is open to the ocean also. Just like pouring of rain from God's gift, the cloud, open to everyone. The land requires raining for being moist, but the water does not require, but the rain is there also. It is so sufficient. It is on the hill also. Hill does not require rain. On the hill there is no production, nobody is going to produce grains, neither on the water. But it is so sufficient and liberal that it is on the water, on the hill, besides on the land. That is God's gift. God's gift is not for a particular person, individual. Atreya Ṛṣi: This Hare Kṛṣṇa is not only for one person, it is so free we’re offering it on the streets. Prabhupāda: Even for the children, they are taking part. The children also dance. The small children, not even one year, when there will be chanting, on the lap of the mother they are . . . every day we see. It doesn’t require any education, natural. Soul's function. As soon as there is soul, it will act, immediately. That is the difference. This is also meditation. Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, could you explain how soul acts to the mantra ? Prabhupāda: Huh? Atreya Ṛṣi: How the soul acts to the sound vibration? Prabhupāda: Because it is spiritual vibration and soul is spirit, so at once it is attracted on the same level, same platform. (pause) Guest (2): How do you meditate, how . . .? Do you just say, do you just sit and say Hare Kṛṣṇa, or do you do it all the time? Prabhupāda: You have not seen our class in the morning? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: You come and you see how we do it, meditate. Practically you will see how our meditation is going on. Come between seven and eight, you will find in the morning. Devotee (2): Earlier also we are chanting japa . Prabhupāda: Early also. If not early, you can come between seven and eight. Give them a little prasāda . Devotee (2): There is some for them. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Would you like me to get some for them? There is some saved for them. Atreya Ṛṣi: There is some saved. Devotee (2): Also I’ll show Terry Stevens your books also. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee (2): I’ll show him your books also. Prabhupāda: So. Jaya . (devotees offer obeisances) Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (1): I should have spoken sooner, I suppose, but I didn’t know if I should. How does Lord Jesus fit in, that was my main problem all along, because I'm so strongly Catholic and yet I’ve been drawn to Kṛṣṇa consciousness too, and I can't seem to reconcile them. I’ve talked to the devotees and yet I can't get them completely set . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: She would like to know how Lord Jesus would fit into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes, Lord Jesus says that you love God. We love God, that's all. Guest (1): Yes, but there are such different rules in the two. Prabhupāda: That is not very important thing. Actually if you have learned to love God, that is wanted. (break) . . . by Lord Jesus Christ is different from the standard of our perception of lord of God, love of Godhead. Love of Godhead is one. God is one and how to love Him, that is also one. Now, we have to see by the result. *Just like two physicians are there. One physician is over*-crowded, another physician is counting the contents of his table. So people go to that physician who is curing very quickly, but both of them are physician. One may be very experienced, another may be not very experienced. But somehow or other one is crowded, another is not crowded. Similarly, both Christian religion or this Vedic religion is instructing people love of Godhead. Now you have to see where is the best result. That's it. Then you judge yourself. But we want that you love God. Either by this method or that method, the method is nothing. End justifies the means. If the end is that actually you have developed your love of God, then the means which you have adopted, that is alright. And if the end is not very good, then the means is also not good. So you have to judge yourself whether you are developing love for God or love for dog. Then you can judge. Why you are asking me? Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me? You can judge. Guest (1): Oh. Well, because I have been very confused for the last eight months. Prabhupāda: Why should you be confused? If you really want to love God, so you can test yourself whether I'm increasing my love of God or increasing love of dog. People are generally in love of dog, especially in your country. Everyone has got a pet dog. And we are preaching not dog, but God, that is the difference. So you have to test yourself whether I am loving God or loving dog. That's all. And our point of view is that you love God, never mind whatever the means, whether Christian means or Jewish means or any means, Hindu means, Muslim means, it doesn’t matter. You love God, that's all. Somehow or other you come to that point. That is our missionary activities. We are teaching, "Love God". Guest (1): Yes, but what confuses me is some of them . . . well, no, I shouldn’t put it that way. To love God in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you have to chant and follow the four regulative principles and then have association, which practically means living in a temple. Well, I'm from Fresno and there is no temple, so it's very difficult. Prabhupāda: So why don’t you come to the temple? Live near the temple. Guest (1): (laughs) I tried that. Prabhupāda: You live near the temple if you cannot live with us. Guest (1): Uh huh. Prabhupāda: Take an apartment near the temple, join temple service, and you will learn everything automatically. You live fortnight with us, you will love God. Fortnight, give a try, fortnight. Guest (1): Pardon? Prabhupāda: Fortnight one, fifteen days. You live with us, and you will learn how to love God. Guest (1): I did that, your Grace, for three weeks I did. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very easy. Just like to love God is not difficult because that is natural. Just like father and the son or mother and the son, the love is already there, fixed up. The son may forget, but the mother does not forget. But as soon as the mother and son comes together, the original love revives immediately. *Similarly, love of Godhead is natural. So by somehow or other you come near God, then you again love God. That is the purpose of temple. There is God, Radha*-Kṛṣṇa, living. We are giving Him everything, we are dressing Him, we are bathing Him, cleansing, we are praying, we are offering obeisances, in this way, the original love of God awakens. By this process. "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer Me your obeisances, and you become God conscious." Very easy. It doesn't require much education, Ph.D. title, nothing. So you can try for a fortnight here. If you like, you can live with us. Or you come. Now give them little prasāda . Devotee: Jaya , Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (cut) (end) Conversation -- June 25, 1972, Los Angeles (garden conversation) Devotee (1): Is there any questions? Atreya Ṛṣi: I have a question. Kaṁsa's attitude, he's a demon, and when a daughter is born, he first changes his mind. Throughout this story Kaṁsa changes his mind several times back and forth. *Similarly, Vasudeva, when Kaṁsa is favorable towards him, and also Yaśodā, they both change and excuse their brother and brother*-in-law. How is this similarity, the change of attitude? Prabhupāda: Who ex . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: They excused Kaṁsa. (break) . . . they forgave him when Kaṁsa decided not to kill the daughter. Prabhupāda: No? Atreya Ṛṣi: The devotee . . . Prabhupāda: He, he killed the daughter. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the daughter slipped up there in the sky. (break) He could not kill the daughter. He attempted, but he could not. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, was Kaṁsa . . . was he aware all of this time that he was a devotee? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Was he aware this entire time that he was a devotee? He said that . . . I remember reading that he was a devotee. Prabhupāda: Whatever he might be, nobody remembers what he was in his past life. Lady devotee: Is the girl child, is that Subhadrā? Devotee (1): Talk louder. Lady devotee: Is the girl child, is that Subhadrā? Devotee (1): Was the girl child . . .? Devotee: (explaining) The female child, was that Subhadrā? Prabhupāda: No, Durgā. She was Bhadrā, not Subhadrā. Bhadrā is material energy, and Subhadrā is spiritual energy. Devotee (3): Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons and shorten their duration of life? Devotee (1): Can you say it louder? Devotee (3): Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons and shorten the duration of life? Atreya Ṛṣi: (explaining) Why did the demons come to harass the saintly persons? Prabhupāda: Answer. You answer. Answer this question, anyone. Devotee (4): The glories, all of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, they are such that . . . Prabhupāda: His question is different. Devotee (4): What is it? Devotee (3): Why did the demons come and harass the saintly persons and shorten their life? Devotee (4): Which . . . in what relationship? Where . . . I'm not sure what it means . . . Devotee (3): The demons were sent by Kaṁsa to harass the saintly persons. Devotee (4): Yes, that's their purpose. Devotee (3): Why? Devotee (4): That . . . Atreya Ṛṣi: This material world, there are demons, and then there are saintly persons. This is the nature of the material world. And Kṛṣṇa comes. The demons want to forget Kṛṣṇa, and that's their job. Prabhupāda: Demons means who harass saintly persons. That is the definition of demon. Demons means one who harasses saintly persons and who does not believe in God. This is the definition of demon. So there is a class of men always who do not like saintly persons and do not believe in God. So they are demons. *Dvau bhūta*-sargau loke daiva āsura ( BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva , asura; *demon and demigod. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayaḥ . Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are called demigods, and those who are opposite number, they are called demons. The whole world is full of demons; still there are little percent of them are devotees. Otherwise the material world is full of demons. Devotee: (in background) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to saṅkīrtana . Come join the saṅkīrtana party. Devotee (3): The demons' business is to harass the devotees? They do nothing else? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (3): The demons, they do nothing else except harass the devotees? Prabhupāda: Demons means who harasses devotee. That is demon. Anyone who harasses devotee, he is demon. Devotee (5): Is Rohiṇī also a wife of Vasudeva? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Atreya Ṛṣi: (explaining) Is Rohiṇī a wife of Vasudeva? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Atreya Ṛṣi: She is. Prabhupāda: So, Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and Subhadrā—there are different mothers, father one. Atreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda, since the birth of Kṛṣṇa, in the past few thousand years there are many stories about different people, in Greek story, in literature, even the birth of Moses, which exemplify in some way or another stories of Kṛṣṇa. Is there any relation? Prabhupāda: There is . . . they have taken all these stories from *Purāṇas* . After all, these system, Greek civilization, they are within three thousand years. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's time is five thousand years. So there is possibility of taking these stories from Kṛṣṇa's life. The word Kristo is there in Greek dictionary. Kristo . And the meaning is "anointed face" or something like that. So Kṛṣṇa was known. And from Kristo the word Christ has come. That is explained in that Aquarian Gospel . So it appears that Kṛṣṇa was known. Formerly, all over the world the Vedic system was current. So Kṛṣṇa was known. Devotee: Prabhupāda, before Lord Caitanya, for instance from the period after Kṛṣṇa's birth up until the appearance of Lord Caitanya, what was, ah, what was the bona fide method for, ah . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . is current. Vedic . . . (indistinct) . . . is not new. Caitanya Mahāprabhu re*-introduced it with new vigor, that's all. Otherwise it is not new introduction. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ . Find out. Devotee (1): "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: So the chanting is long before Kṛṣṇa appeared. Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . all around. Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it again. It is not a new thing. Devotee: So up until Lord Caitanya it wasn't very widely known. Is that . . .? Prabhupāda: It was known, but He specifically propagated. The ācārya never introduce anything new. It is already there. But according to time, they take up the . . . just like doctor. A doctor, medical practitioner, he knows many medicines, but for a particular type of patient, he prescribes a medicine. It is not that the new medicine is invented for him. It is already there in the stock. But the experienced physician knows what kind of medicine will be suitable for this patient, so he gives that. It is like that. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). There is no other alternative. That means there are other alternatives, but they are not active. So all these methods are already there, but this chanting method is especially suitable for this time. That is the special introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Lady devotee (2): When did Nārada Muni come with the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra to this planet? And how is that . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): When Nārada Muni came to this planet and introduced the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: I said there is no question of introduction. It is already there. Lady devotee (2): It's always . . . Prabhupāda: Always there. Just like in the . . . (break) Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ (BG 9.14). So when Kṛṣṇa says satataṁ , satataṁ means always. What is the meaning of satataṁ ? Devotee (1): "Always." Prabhupāda: Always. Just like the sun is always there in the sky, but it appears in the morning. It is not that morning creates the sun. The sun is already there. You'll see in the morning, that's all. Lady devotee (2): So Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , is it new to us as living entities? Prabhupāda: Huh? Lady devotee (2): Is it new to us as living entities? Prabhupāda: New? No. Lady devotee (2): So we have known it always. Prabhupāda: It is always existing, that I've explained. Nothing is new. Atreya Ṛṣi: For us as well, we knew it? We knew the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra ? Prabhupāda: That is up to you. How can I say it? (laughs) So many things there are. Whether you knew or not knew, I cannot say. (chuckles) Lady devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when Vasudeva was talking to Nanda Mahārāja, he said we're like seaweed. We come together . . . they come together in the ocean, and then we become separated after a while. So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness sometimes it is said that we are packed up tight in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but these other devo . . . Prabhupāda: That example is for material world. In the material world . . . just like we are assembled here. Every one of us had our father, mother, family, but where are those families? Just like my family is in India, your family somewhere else. So we are scattered. So that example is given. Just like in the river some straws gather together, again another wave comes and it is all scattered. We are similarly, in the ocean of time, we are simply gathering and sometimes dispersing, that's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: In *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* there is a very beautiful example: "As by the sweet will of the player the playthings are put together and again dispersed . . ." Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. Atreya Ṛṣi: ". . . again by the sweet will of the Lord . . ." Prabhupāda: Nothing is settled up here in this material world. But spiritual world everything is settled up. (Prabhupāda says something indistinct about the water in a fountain) Devotee (1): There is no circulation. There should be some sort of pump to circulate the water filter it. It's just stagnant, just sitting there. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is very much like Muslim countries. In the Muslim countries they keep some water, because Hazrat Muhammad said that if water is this long or this wide, it's clean. So they do not understand. They keep that much water in their homes and they think it's clean, and they always bathe in it, and it stinks, it smells. But they still think it is clean, because Muhammad said that much water is clean, purifying. Like in every home in Iran, in the Muslim countries, they have a little water like this which is green and smelly, and they go and drink it. Prabhupāda: Rotten water, they drink? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, because in the Koran Muhammad says that . . . because in Arabia there was no water, so Muhammad explained that if you come across some water which is this big, you should take a bath; it's cleansing. Because the Arabs used to take no bath. So Muhammad encouraged taking baths and cleanliness to his disciples. But now today's disciples don't understand that. There is plenty of water, but they keep some water in their home like that just to take bath. And it smells, but they wouldn't . . . they would consider nonbelievers dirty. If you come to their home, they would want you to wash in there first, if you don't believe in . . . (laughter) Lady devotee (2): Prabhupada many Kṛṣṇa's have the same type of attitude towards religion. How is it that we can right thing to do . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Answer. Devotee (1): What is their attitude? Devotee: (in background) Haribol , prabhus . Lady devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . they think they are following Christianity. They think they are following the teachings of Christ, but they really aren't. They really don't even know what the teachings of Christ are. Atreya Ṛṣi: So chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Then they're not Christians. Lady devotee (2): Yes, but they say, you know that, "I'm already Christian. I already have my religion, so how is it . . . (indistinct) . . ." Devotee (1): Let them know that we're not against their religion and that we're not, not Christians. Tell them, "Yes, that's good. But your love of God can always increase, you know." Atreya Ṛṣi: The fact is . . . Devotee (1): You only scare them away by making them think that we're another team, you know. There's no set . . . there's no set way you're gonna do it. You've got to just use your intelligence with each case. Each person's different. But just don't scare them. Try to get them to come, you know, eat prasādam . (laughs) Atreya Ṛṣi: But factually we are the only Christians. They are not Christian, because they do not . . . Devotee (1): That's what we have to understand. Atreya Ṛṣi: And we have to show them. Devotee (1): We have to actually understand that they are not actually Christians. If we think that they are Christians, see, then we're falling into their illusion. They're thinking that they are Christians, but actually . . . the real meaning of Christian means one who is serving God. He's christened; he's a medium. Prabhupāda: Christian, according to that Aquarian Gospel , Christian means Kristoian. Real Christian means Kṛṣṇian, Kṛṣṇian. Not Christian but Kṛṣṇian. They are Christian, real Christian. Actually Christian is a diverted word from Kṛṣṇian . This is the fact. The Kṛṣṇian by perverted form is Christian . There is authority in the Aquarian Gospel. Actually we are . . . the original word is Kṛṣṇian or Kristian . Kristoian or Kristo . The word is coming. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Christ has come from the word Kristo , and Kristo is a perverted word of Kṛṣṇa . So actually the word is coming from Kristo , and Kristo is Kṛṣṇa . Even in India still, Kṛṣṇa, one's name is Kṛṣṇa, he is called Kristo. My younger brother was named Kṛṣṇa. So we were calling him Kristo, Kristo. That is common. So from Kristo , Christ has come. Christo . From Kristo—Christo ; from Christo —Christian. Devotee (1): Under the heading of Christian there are still the two classes of men, demons and devotees. So anyone who is actually sincere about learning to love God, if we simply present Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them they'll take it, eventually. And if they are a demon, then they won't take it. Then we must avoid them. If somebody is so demoniac that when we preach to them they won't accept, then we just have to move on. But if someone is really sincerely trying to follow Lord Jesus, then there won't be anything he can do but come. Atreya Ṛṣi: Lord Caitanya and Śrīla Prabhupāda are so merciful that they have picked up many demons, made devotees. Devotee: Also possible, but . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when Vasudeva, ah, carried child Kṛṣṇa to Mother Yaśodā's house, why didn't he make recognized to Mother Yaśodā about the change of the child, the two children? Prabhupāda: She was sleeping. (laughter) He (she) did not know. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Your answer is there. (laughter) It is stated that out of child labor she was fatigued, and she was sleeping. So simply changed. Sometimes in hospital they change. You know that? In hospital many babies are born. So doctors take bribe, they change, male child into female. One who has given male child, and by trick they change. Devotee: Is that in India or America, or where? Prabhupāda: In India. In America maybe. I do not know. So this male child, female child changing is a long practice. It was the desire of Kṛṣṇa to come to Yaśodā. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! Prabhupāda: It is the supreme arrangement. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! Prabhupāda: Childhood pastime of all parents, it is very pleasing. So Mother Yaśodā was fortunate that she could enjoy the childhood pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, whereas Devakī, although Kṛṣṇa was her real son, she could not enjoy. Therefore Mother Yaśodā is considered more fortunate than Devakī. Atreya Ṛṣi: Jaya! (end) Conversation -- June 26, 1972, Los Angeles (garden conversation with Professor Kulshrestha) Prabhupāda: . . . achedyam . These are the . . . achedya , can be cut into pieces . . . (indistinct) . . . cannot be burned. Now the physist, chemist, they have got experience, everything burns, everything is melted; therefore it is metaphysical. What is metaphysical? What is the meaning of "meta"? Devotee: "Under." Prabhupāda: Huh? Metaphysics. Atreya Ṛṣi: Is it "above"? Prabhupāda: Physics and metaphysics. What is this "meta"? Atreya Ṛṣi: Beyond physics. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha*-mate . Scientists, physists, philosophers, after all, they will die. So knowledge of physics and chemistry cannot save you. Therefore Śaṅkarācārya says bhaja govindaṁ : "Just become devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa." *Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi ( BG 18.66). There are many instances, great saintly persons have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lord Caitanya says, "Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Yāre dekha , tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). So we should have to follow the big personalities. Why should we hesitate? *(pause) By this carriage where Tulasī*-devī goes? Devotee (1): I don't know. Devotee (2): They take her into the temple. Prabhupāda: Within the . . . Devotee (1): Into the temple? (pause) Prabhupāda: Scientists are also becoming interested. Here is a statement. Śyāmasundara: Yes, he told me two scientists want to come to see you, but they can't come tomorrow night, and the next night you'll be gone. Prabhupāda: What about the other scientists who came? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I didn't see them. Devotee (1): I think American scientists would be easier to talk to. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, these are American scientists, physists. Devotee (1): I think Americans scientists will be easier to talk to. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): ‘Cause they don't think they know anything about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They are untouched. Our Indian, they are touched and polluted. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: But most of them, most of the scientists, people in the universities and schools, they are exposed to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have not been . . . they have not direct contact with devotees, but they have seen the devotees and so on, in most . . . so they ask me, "How do I call these people? 'Hare Kṛṣṇa' or . . .?" I say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa." They have seen our devotees come in the schools and campuses, chanting. *Prabhupāda: Tulasī*-devī's growing nicely in this park. As soon as there is sincere devotion, Tulasī will grow. In your . . . (indistinct) . . . wonderful, Tulasī, due to Govinda dāsī's devotion. Simply for that tulasī plant I want to remain. It is so nice. They have grown anywhere else, or simply there? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: In the other islands we also have big. In Maui we have four that are . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: . . . big. Prabhupāda: It will sanctify the whole place. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How big was that? Devotee (1): Six feet tall. Five and a half, six feet tall, five feet wide. Prabhupāda: That is in Hawaii, er, here? Devotee (1): Maui? Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Honolulu. Honolulu. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: The ones in Honolulu are almost that big. Their trunks are like this big. The trunks. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How many years? Prabhupāda: About three years. Two years, not more than that. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: In the beginning there was . . . hard, trouble. There are so many. Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're in the ground outside. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Some madman cut them down, the big ones? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: He cut a few, but he couldn't kill them. He cut a few, cut some limbs. They moved out. Those neighbors have finally left. They're lucky. They almost . . . (break) Prabhupāda: How long you are here? Professor Kulshrestha: I came here September, Swāmījī, and . . . Prabhupāda: Last September? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What you are doing? Professor Kulshrestha: I've come for some research work here. Prabhupāda: Oh. ( japa ) Kṛṣṇa is very kind He has come here. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Kṛṣṇa's very kind, and you are here. You have got His blessings here. Prabhupāda: Here is Tulasī. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the sacred plant. Prabhupāda: ( japa ) (break) . . . saba mithyā . This is Bengali. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-nāma . . . you understand Bengali? Professor Kulshrestha: Very well, Swāmījī. Very well, yes. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇa*-nāma karo bhāi āra saba mithyā , palāibe patha naya ya mache kichu . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Take to Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Don't neglect. Anything else, that is all nonsense. This is the only essence of life. If you want to avoid it, then Yamarāja, the superintendent of death, will not excuse. Palāibe patha naya. What is your subject matter of research? Professor Kulshrestha: My subject matter of research is Indians, see, their emigration from India and the assimilation various countries, you see. And message of India, which is spreading around the world. Prabhupāda: So you are taking an interest in our . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, Swāmījī. I've been here quite frequently. And I've been actually waiting for you to come. And as Lord Kṛṣṇa wills, you see . . . well, yesterday one of your disciples went to my place of his own, you see, and told me of it, you see? It is Lord who wished to see and who desired it to see. Prabhupāda: So you are deputed by government? Professor Kulshrestha: No. You see, I am a retired professor from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Professor Kulshrestha: And on my own, you see. Prabhupāda: Government is not interested. Professor Kulshrestha: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . they're assimilating this culture very nicely. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. I want to talk to you for some time on this topic, actually. Prabhupāda: You can talk now. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Kulshrestha: 'Cause I have worked, you see, from 1949 to 1952. I was a professor in the University of London, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Then, you see, that was almost the beginning of my career. You know some . . . (indistinct) . . . was there in the university. And I was working in the university at the time. And well . . . Prabhupāda: London University, when you were there? Professor Kulshrestha: '49 to '52. Prabhupāda: Oh. We have got our temple near London University. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Seven Bury Place. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: London University, that is Russell district? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Russell Street, yes. Russell Square, Russell Street. Prabhupāda: There is a Square, Bedford? Professor Kulshrestha: Bedford Square, yes. That's right. Prabhupāda: Another Square, Boomsbury? Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury. Professor Kulshrestha: Bloomsbury, yes. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. And the museum . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: The museum is just one block after. Professor Kulshrestha: I see. Prabhupāda: Bury Place, then you must know. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So in the beginning of . . . what is that street? Śyāmasundara: Montague Street? Prabhupāda: No, no. That main street . . . Śyāmasundara: Oxford Street? Prabhupāda: Oxford that side. Bloomsbury . . . Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury Way. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury, huh? Śyāmasundara: Bloomsbury Way. Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. Bloomsbury. From Bloomsbury, Bury Place is there on the corner, exactly on the corner in the beginning. It is a very important place. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, it is a very thick of the town area. Thick of the town area. Prabhupāda: So all Indians, Englishmen, they come to our temple. Yes Professor Kulshrestha: You have brought the wonderful message in the wonderful way, you see. Really. And what do you need is further expansion. The message should spread out. Prabhupāda: It is spreading. These boys are spreading. Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, they're working very hard. Yes, yes, yes. They're working very hard. Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: They're all qualified. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. And I have, believe, seen some of the books now you are mentioned, but you are mentioned Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters. You see? They often mention you "Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters," you see, "those who are recite Hare Kṛṣṇa," like that. Prabhupāda: We have published so many books. Big books. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know. No, English authors, other authors have mentioned it, you see, when they talk about American society, when they talk of those society, religions, and various groups in the society, they talk of you as Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters. Prabhupāda: They say sometimes: "Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: What do they say? Professor Kulshrestha: Oh, all this crazy . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, it is a great message, you know. It is a great blessing, great message. Prabhupāda: Aye. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmījī has served, you see, mankind that way, you see. Prabhupāda: What about you? It is the message of Lord Caitanya . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, I know, I know. Prabhupāda: . . . He says paropakāra . He says: So actually we Indians, we have got a privilege for paropakāra , for doing paropakāra . We have got the privilege. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's word, that anyone who has taken birth as a human being in Bhāratavarṣa, he can fructify, he can make his life successful, fruitful, and do welfare activities for others. That means those who are Indians, they have got the advantage of Vedic culture, so they should assimilate this Vedic culture in life and go outside and spread this. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But we have neglected. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. That is what I was going to say, you see, this is message for all. And how many . . . Prabhupāda: People are so anxious to receive this message . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and our people, our government, callous. This is the misfortune. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our leaders, they don't care. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They say: "Throw away these Vedic knowledge in the water." I have heard, lecturing. Professor Kulshrestha: And they're having the trouble, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: They must have. Professor Kulshrestha: They're having trouble so deep. They're having troubles. Prabhupāda: Still India's so much fallen condition, still people are hankering after India's message. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have received letter from Cox and Kings… Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, the traveling . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That many travelers, they're very much inquisitive to know about India's spiritual message, whether we can take care of them. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They've written us. And they are preparing . . . we are constructing a temple in Vṛndāvana, in Māyāpura, in Bombay also to receive these tourists and give them . . . we are giving here also the same thing. So we are arranging, but we are not getting full support, either from government. Public, Indians, they are giving little support, but they cannot send their money. This government has got a cultural department . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that they'll send some dancers. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Guest: We have to pay the taxes . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: We have to pay the taxes if we belong to religious group, and we don't have to pay if we belong to the national group. There are the taxes like that. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, taxes, yes. Guest: If you donate any money to a religion, then you have to pay taxes. But if you pay, donate any money to a national activity, then you need not to pay any taxes for that. Professor Kulshrestha: Either for religions not national? (laughter) Guest: Just religion is like, that because Nehru was a nonreligious person at that time. Seventeen years. He didn't believe in God. Prabhupāda: But this is not a religion, this is a culture. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . Professor Kulshrestha: And what is culture? Culture has the full . . . (indistinct) . . . aspect, and religion is the most important one. Prabhupāda: Our culture, our Vedic culture, is on religion, on God consciousness, everything. The whole social structure, political structure, philosophical structure, scientific structure, everything is aiming on Viṣṇu. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūraya . Viṣṇu, God. And in the *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it is said: *So our cultural aim, Vedic cultural aim, is tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ . How to satisfy Him. But they do not know about Viṣṇu. They have forgotten Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ (SB 7.5.31). *Our self*-interest is there in Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ . These foolish men, they do not know. Durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are uselessly hoping that they will be able to adjust things by material advancement. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: That is their mistake. So*-called scientists, so-called religion that, "We shall make you happy. We are discovering now new methods, new interpretation." That will not . . . that will not help. Professor Kulshrestha: The rate of those persons who are having blood pressure and such diseases, Swāmījī, is rising like anything in America. Why? Because they are going away from God, you see. Prabhupāda: Anxiety. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, anxiety. Prabhupāda: Blood pressure is a disease of . . .? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Just anxiety. Prabhupāda: And anxiety is the material disease. Professor Kulshrestha: That's right. Prabhupāda: That is not new; it is always. Prahlāda Mahārāja explained this disease to his father. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: He asked from his son, "What you have learned, best thing, explain." So he said: This is samudvigna , anxiety. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, Prahlāda Mahārāja said: "In my opinion," tat sādhu manye "I think that this is the best thing." What is that? That "These people who are materially entrapped, they are full of anxieties." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: "So, for them it is better," hitva andha*-kūpaṁ . . . hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ. Just like one is fallen in the blind well, so this so-called materialistic way of life is just like one man fallen in the blind well. So one should give it up and take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta. That is first class. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is preaching people, educating people, that "You take to Kṛṣṇa and everything will be solved." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is our message. Professor Kulshrestha: "Leave everything, come to My repose." Prabhupāda: There is no question of leaving. We cannot leave. Professor Kulshrestha: Leave is dedicate. Prabhupāda: Dedicate, yes. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that is the meaning. Prabhupāda: That, ah, this philosophy I was explaining this morning, that we don't leave anything. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like Māyāvādī philosophers, they are completely disinterested in material things. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . But we don't say mithyā . Why should we say mithyā ? Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is God's creation. God is truth. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So He will create truth. Prabhupāda: So how . . . pūrṇasya . . . pūrṇat pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So it is not useless. So therefore we are utilizing everything for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa*-sambandha (Brs. 1.2.255). We dovetail everything in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is our philosophy. We don't say this is false. This is not false. How it can be false? It may be temporary— anitya , not false. We exactly use the word anitya . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anitya means temporary. This body is antavata . It is to be finished, exhausted, not inexhausted. But it is not false. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmījī, I get the feeling sometimes, after living here for so many months, that you can have a lot of money from this country, that's a fact, you see. The whole thing is you are so busy, you have got so many bases to look after, the entire universe, that sort of thing is yours . . . Prabhupāda: Universe is mine? Nobody cares for me. (laughs) Professor Kulshrestha: No, obviously I was joking, Swāmījī. They all remember you like anything. Prabhupāda: That is their kindness. But universe is Kṛṣṇa's, and we are Kṛṣṇa's servant, therefore we have right to say that it is our. (laughter) Īśāvāsyam . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem. Prabhupāda: Huh? Professor Kulshrestha: Money should be no problem in America. Prabhupāda: No, we have no money problem. Actually we have no money problem. We are spending in all our branches about seventy hundred thousand dollars. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: That means in Indian exchange that is seven lakhs . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: And money is coming. We have no fixed income. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are depending on selling of the books, incense. There is no certainty. But we are maintaining. In this building we have to spend about . . . how many thousand dollars? Ātreya Ṛṣi: A month, about six thousand dollars. Prabhupāda: No, more than that. Śyāmasundara: Here it's ten. Prabhupāda: Ten thousand dollars. Similarly in New York. So all our branches are very expensive. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: This boy came to us, he contributed $38,000—whatever he had. So through somehow or other . . . Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . coming. After all, money is Kṛṣṇa's. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Lakṣmī. Lakṣmī is Nārāyaṇa's property. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: When Nārāyaṇa is there, Lakṣmī must be there. Because Lakṣmī is not unfaithful. She cannot live alone. Rather, those who are materialistic persons, they are trying to capture Lakṣmī without Nārāyaṇa. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. So it is cañcalā . (laughter) Prabhupāda: It is. Just like Rāvaṇa captured Lakṣmī. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Defied Rāma, Nārāyaṇa, and captured Lakṣmī. He thought, "I don't care for Nārāyaṇa; I care for Lakṣmī." The result was that he became vanquished. Life, property and everything—sons, daughters, all family. *So that is going to happen. If they do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the whole world will be finished like Rāvaṇa. That's a fact. The atom bomb is there already. So they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, otherwise they will be finished. Their so*-called science will not save. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What science will save? There was inundation in the eastern part. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similar things—the Pacific Ocean can finish all this California in a second. How the science can protect? Professor Kulshrestha: Science has got more means for destruction, I believe. Prabhupāda: They can use, that's all. Professor Kulshrestha: And what is destruction? Changing for. Prabhupāda: (sounds of lecture over loudspeaker) What is that? Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): Pradyumna is giving a lecture in the temple. Broadcasting it over the speakers. Devotee (2): Right now? (laughter) Professor Kulshrestha: Competition. Prabhupāda: Our students are now speaking. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Some universities are . . . what is that? Don't stop that. Devotee: I am just going to have to turn the speaker down here; no one can hear. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . in the temple listening. Hare Kṛṣṇa? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The other day one scientist came. What is his name? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Doctor of science. So he was speaking very, what is called? Śyāmasundara: Bombastically? (laughter) Prabhupāda: And after all, he admitted that we are controlled by the laws of nature. As laws . . . there must some controller of the laws of nature. That the scientists do not know. We said: "Yes, we know." That is the difference. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes, that's right. That's right. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. So our conclusion was that they do not know, but we know. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Everyone will admit that he is controlled by the laws of nature. Nobody can deny it. Now as soon as we speak of laws, there must be there, somebody, law*-giver. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Law cannot spring up automatically. As soon as there is law, there must be some law*-giver. And that information is there in the Bhagavad-gītā . *"Under My direction the laws of nature are working." In the Brahma*-saṁhitā also there is: *Durga is not working independently. She is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord. Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā mayādhyakṣeṇa : "Under My superintendence." So for us it is not difficult; we accepted Kṛṣṇa, and it is acting for practical purposes. Therefore, we are more than scientist. Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They do not know who is behind these laws of nature, but we know. You may disagree; that is a different thing. But as we say: "We know," it is working practically. And you do not know, neither you have any program to know, neither you can . . . Professor Kulshrestha: That's right. Prabhupāda: Neither you have got the capacity to know. That is not possible. You cannot know. You are . . . just like a person who is suffering from some disease, he cannot diagnose himself. He cannot find out what is the cause of the disease. He must go to a physician who is not diseased. Even a medical man when he falls sick, he entrusts himself in the care of another physician. He does not treat himself. Therefore if you are under the clutches of māyā , you cannot understand what is beyond māyā . That is not possible. Māyā will not allow you to understand. Just like if you want to enter in a big man's house, there are so many doorkeepers. So you cannot go by force to see the proprietor. You have to remain under the control of the doorkeepers. They will not allow you unless you are submissive. Māyā will not allow. So this method, speculative method, to know the Supreme, will not be successful. Professor Kulshrestha: Swāmī, these scientist don't know what is nature also. Ask them what is nature, and they can't tell you what is nature. They can't define nature, you see. Prabhupāda: What is . . . what is their definition? Here is a scientist. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nature . . . we also think nature is controlled by some supernatural power. Of course, there is somebody behind nature who is controlling the necessary self. Professor Kulshrestha: No, what is nature they can't see. What is nature. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nature is the energy of the Lord. Professor Kulshrestha: Those scientists who don't believe in God, you see. One scientist I met, to say, he asked me, "Can you give me empirical evidence of God?" I said: "You don't need one." He said: "No, I need to believe." I said: "The entire world is empirical evidence," you see? "You see a flower, you see a plant, you see a man, you see a . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is just evidence of God," you see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Kulshrestha: He said to say evidence of nature. I said: "Define me nature," you see. He said he couldn't define nature, you see. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving the chances . . . (aside) You have got the wood? You have brought the wood? Those who cannot understand what is God, Kṛṣṇa is giving them instances how one can understand God in their own ways. He said: "I am the taste in the water." Professor Kulshrestha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Now, you are scientist, you know how to create water. But the taste you cannot create. That is not possible. Now He says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ : "I am the light of the sun . . ." (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1972, San Diego Prabhupāda: . . . so decomposes. So the outer skin has become dry. Nobody cares for it. It is lying down, the outer cover of the squash, and one dried bamboo. You have seen? You know bamboo? Part cut, it is also lying somewhere. And a piece of wear. Śyāmasundara: Wire. Prabhupāda: Wire, that is also lying somewhere. Nobody cares. But one gentleman, he collected all these three things and prepared a string instrument. He joined the bamboo with the dry cover of squash and fitted the string, and it began to ting , ting , ting . It is called ektara . There is instrument, in India it is called ektara . The example is that so many things individually lying useless, but if somebody knows how to combine them, it becomes an instrument, very sweet, very sweet to hear. Similarly, in this world, so many things are lying dead and frustrated . . . but if they are combined together by an expert, it becomes useful. So although this world is dead body, when there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it becomes enlivened. That is our movement. We are trying to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything dead within this world. (Prabhupāda drinks) Now just see all these ingredients—strawberry and . . . what is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Orange juice. Prabhupāda: Orange and honey . . . Devotee (1): Peach. Prabhupāda: . . . and peach, they are natural products from the jungle. Nobody goes to manufacture; automatically comes out. But when they are combined together, it is nectarine. None of them is manufactured by man, either this honey or the strawberry or the pineapple. Given by God. So in every step you can perceive the hands of God. Every step. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This nice taste you cannot create by any chemical combination. It is not possible. Because God's hand is there, it has become so tasteful drink. Man cannot make. This flower, man cannot make. This fruit . . . nothing man can make. This nice flower stick, how nicely it is made. So everything you can perceive the hands of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When you perceive the hands of God, presence of God, presence of the energy of God, then you become happy. That is the way of happiness. In every step of life you feel the hands of God. We are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means how to perceive, realize, presence of God in everything. So there will be no disappointment. (aside) Take more. Go on eating. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam ( ISO 1). Everything there is. Actually that is a fact. People are so foolish. They are not trained up to understand the presence of God in everything. So we are training that status of life, to perceive presence of God in everything. In everything. (pause) This is called peach? *Śyāmasundara: Um*-hm. Like those trees we saw on the walk this morning. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: We saw some peach trees, small ones. Prabhupāda: This is also peach? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. No peaches in India? Prabhupāda: Not so big. It is very nice. These fruits are there in India. What is called? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Cherries. Prabhupāda: Cherry. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have sour cherries too? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Sour cherries? It's sour. Prabhupāda: It is sour? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is some kind of cherries which is very sour, for cooking. Śyāmasundara: Those are sweet. Ātreya Ṛṣi: These are sweet. Prabhupāda: They become bigger more? Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: What are those biggers? Śyāmasundara: Plums. Ātreya Ṛṣi: There's strawberries. Śyāmasundara: They're plums. Looks like a cherry. And these are avocado. Prabhupāda: Fat. Vegetable fat? It is fatty. These fruits are meant for offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam . Flowers, leaves, fruits He wants. So these are Kṛṣṇa's food. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). What is your problem of life? Devotee (2): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): We're miserable. Prabhupāda: Why miserable? Devotee (2): We never get satisfaction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is good sign, because then you will be searching after the source of satisfaction. The source of satisfaction is Kṛṣṇa. Śānti. Suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29). When you know Kṛṣṇa as the friend of everyone, at that time you get satisfaction. How nice. Everything is so nice. Śyāmasundara: Just see how bright this . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . how bright these flowers are. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this beauty, nice flavor, nice leaves, everything comes? Wherefrom? (pause) So I shall have to go? Śyāmasundara: The television show is at seven? Viṣṇujana: Yes, seven o'clock. Would you still like to go for a drive and see some of the city? The car is all ready. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Take more. Come to our temple daily in the morning at seven. Are you coming there? Guest: Yes. I was staying at the Detroit temple with Bhagavān. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: I was helping the band a little bit. And I came to see you, and I was wondering what I should do to serve you. I should go back to Detroit? Prabhupāda: Or you can remain here also, anywhere. We have got temple in Los Angeles. Have you been in Los Angeles? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: So come to Los Angeles and stay there for some time. I am going to Los Angeles tomorrow, so you can come. Live with us and you will be happy. We can guarantee you will be happy. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Vedic mission is sarve sukhino bhavantu , everyone be happy. This is our mission. And we know how to become happy. That is our credit. *We know. How to become happy, we know. Therefore, you can inform others also how to become happy. Happiness is our birthright. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Living entity is ānandamaya , full of happiness, but they have fallen in a different condition. Therefore unhappy. Different condition. Just like fish taken out of the water and put into the land, a different condition, and it is throbbing, flapping, unhappy. Take it, put it in the water again, and it will be happy. That's it. (pause) Guest: I don't want to take too much of your time up. Prabhupāda: Thank you very . . . (cut) (end) Conversation and Interview -- July 3, 1972, New York Go to video: Guest (1): Yes, I guess it would be hard to define in terms of a search. Man's . . . man's search for something divine. I'd . . . I'd define it in terms of, of a search for the divine. I've been studying Russian Elders in the Orthodox Church. Perhaps that's a tradition that you're familiar with in some way. They seem to have found the divine. I guess that's religion too. It seems to me both are, but perhaps you have a better definition than that? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you are searching with some hope, what is that hope? Why you are searching? When you are missing something, then there is a question of searching for that missing point. You said religion means searching after the divine. So that means you are missing the divine. Is it not? Guest (1): That's right. Prabhupāda: Now, the next question will be, What do you mean by this "divine"? Guest (1): Oh, I'm not . . . I'm not sure, Your Grace. Prabhupāda: The other day we were talking with some scientist. We came to this conclusion, that the scientist, big scientist, they are simply observing the laws of nature. Because the laws of nature are very stringent. For example, there is death. Everyone will die. So nobody can check death. However great scientist he may be, he cannot stop death. By laws of nature one is becoming old. By your scientific advancement you can stop first of all. So the science means they are trying to overcome the stringent laws of nature, but so far . . . not so far—even in the past, in the human history, they could not. In the present also they are unable. They say in future they will be able. But how we can believe in future? Because in the past they could not; in the present also they are unable, how they can overcome the laws of nature in the future? History repeats. Same failure there is . . . (indistinct) Therefore the divine means, as we define, the divine means the controller of the laws of nature. Laws of nature there is, and everyone is under the laws of nature. Nobody can overcome the laws of nature. Just like state laws: Every citizen is bound to abide by the state law. He cannot overcome it. *If . . . if he overcomes it, then, or violates it, the violation of law, and he becomes punishable. Similarly, the laws of nature means laws of God. Just like your president is the giver of your state law. Similarly, as soon as we say laws of nature, there must be giver of them. In our śāstra , in Vedic literature, it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam ( SB 6.3.19). Dharma , religion, means the codes given by God, and we have to abide by those laws. When you do not abide by those laws, then we violate the laws of nature, of God, and we become punishable. Now, who is that person, or the authority, who is giving that law, who is controlling that law? That is divine search. But that divine search can(not) be completed by the speculation of our imperfect senses. Our senses are imperfect, therefore whatever knowledge we gather by speculating our imperfect senses, that is imperfect. Just like the sun. The sun is very big, bigger, fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, but with our imperfect eyes we see just like a disk. If we remain satisfied with this imperfect knowledge, then we remain in darkness. We have to know the sun from the astronomer. They have calculated. They know. In this way knowledge, perfect knowledge, can be attained—when it is received through the perfect knower, not by speculation. That speculation means I shall speculate with limited mind and imperfect senses. *So however carefully or expertly I manage with the instruments, they are themselves imperfect. Therefore Vedic śāstra says that to understand the divine you must have divine mercy. You must possess. Athāpi te deva padāmbuja*-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi jānāti tattvaṁ (SB 10.14.29). One can understand the truth by the grace of . . . so searching after divine means we must search after the grace of the divine. Just like a very big man, just like President Nixon. So I am speculating that President Nixon is like that, like that, like this, his function is like that, he eats like this, he sleeps like this. That is speculation. But if I hear directly from President Nixon or his representative, very confidential representative, then it is perfect knowledge. I cannot speculate to know about President Nixon by my imperfect senses. I must know about President Nixon when he speaks personally about himself or his personal associate speaks about. That is the way. Guest (1): If our senses are imperfect, then with what sense do we perceive the divine that underlies these laws of nature? Prabhupāda: That our senses are imperfect means, just like I have given the example, I can see the sun, but I do not see the sun perfectly. I have got the power to see the sun, but I do not know how big is the sun. That power I haven't got. In that way my senses are imperfect. So when I see the sun and hear about him from a perfect person who knows about the sun, then my knowledge becomes perfect, although I have got imperfect senses. Just like I cannot understand President Nixon by my speculation, but when President speaks about him I can understand, although I have got imperfect senses. This is the process. Imperfect in this way: that our senses cannot approach to the ultimate point by speculation. Guest (1): Well I agree with that, but I still . . . the perfect person that is going to speak to me is God? Is that . . . Prabhupāda: That, that we'll have to find, find later on. First of all the principle should be accepted that unless we hear from the perfect person, our knowledge is imperfect. First of all you have to agree to this point. Therefore you are going to schools, colleges, universities, because at home who could learn everything? So why you are going to school, colleges and universities? That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that in order to know that perfect knowledge, one has to approach the proper person, who is known as guru . Guest (1): That's what I was getting at. Reporter: (aside) Could I ask a couple of questions now? Devotee: Please. Yes. Reporter: Swāmī, please, I don't want to interrupt. I want to try and ask you a few questions . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm with . . . (indistinct) . . . Swāmī, what do you think accounts for the . . . your popularity, popularity of the . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement sweeping America? Prabhupāda: Because it is not due to my personality. I am presenting the truth as it is. It will appeal. Just like if you prepare some foodstuff with nice ingredients, it will be appealing to everyone, and if you prepare something obnoxious, it may be appealing to a certain section, not to all. Reporter: What can appreciation of Kṛṣṇa do for the Americans like this? Prabhupāda: That, that I have repeatedly said, that you Americans, you are . . . you have already the grace of the Lord. According to our Vedic formula, when a man is born in rich family he is understood to be possessing the grace of the Lord. So you Americans, you have got sufficient riches; you are sons of rich men. So this is the grace of God, janma aiśvarya , to take birth in a high family, to possess riches; janmaiśvarya śruta (SB 1.8.26), to become learned scholar. Just like you are going to the moon planet. Your scientific knowledge is advanced. And śrī , śrī means beauty. So you are beautiful also. So considering all these four points, it is to be understood that you are in favorable condition . . . favorable consideration of the Absolute Truth, Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, then all your these material opulences plus Kṛṣṇa consciousness makes your life perfect. Reporter: Do you foresee that the devotees will grow in numbers in this country? Prabhupāda: There is possibility. Otherwise, why these young men are coming? That I can say: there is good possibility. But we have no facility. Just like government is spending to stop the LSD intoxication millions of dollars. But our students, as soon as they come, they become my students, I simply order them, "No intoxication." So what to speak of LSD, they do not take tea, they do not take coffee, they do not smoke. But government will not help us. That is the difficulty. Reporter: Do you seek government help? Prabhupāda: Yes. If I get government help, I can give protection to these confused, frustrated youth. I have no proper house to accommodate them, to feed them. With great difficulty I am pushing on this movement. So if the government comes forward—this means a little facility—I can turn the face of your country, immediately. There will be no problem. Reporter: What can you cure? What can you make better? *Prabhupāda: This is the cure: I am making good character. Don't you see their face? Some of them were hippies, frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright*-faced, serious character. They don't have any illicit sex. They don't eat meat. They don't have any intoxication. They don't indulge in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how you can expect good citizen? That is not possible. Their character must reform. So we have taken from the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity, God conscious. Don't you appreciate it? Reporter: Will they be able to function in a society as working individuals? Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing prohibited. Simply you have to change your consciousness, that's all. We are also eating; we are also sleeping. Many of our students are householders, they have sex. So there is . . . nothing is prohibited, but regulated for higher achievement. That is our program. Reporter: Have you asked the government for money? President Nixon? Prabhupāda: No. What is the use of asking? Who will give me? Why shall I be refused? If you think this . . . this movement is serious, good, then you come forward. I cannot approach the government and the government says no. I don't think it is good for the government. Reporter: Do you see yourself, then, as the savior of American youth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. It is saved already. Why? It is not future; it is present, practical. Reporter: Thank you very much Your Holiness. Good luck. Thank you. Prabhupāda: So religion, very simple—I am talking with that man over there—religion means the laws of God. Simple definition. And one who follows the laws of God, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian, whether he is Hindu, whether he is Muslim. It doesn't matter. Take, for example, your Christian religion. Lord Jesus Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." But I think cent percent of the Christian people, they are very much engaged in killing. So there are, I mean, disobeying the laws of God. Don't you think? What is . . . what is the value? Then if you disobey the laws of God, then what is your religion? It is simply show. God says, or God's representative, God's son Jesus Christ says that, "Thou shall not kill," but the whole Christian world, the killing art is very much favored. Maintaining slaughterhouse, shooting in sports, and creating . . . (indistinct) . . . and so many things, simply killing. And any film shown, when it is killing film as is very popular. Shooting film is very popular. I see in your park the soldiers killing. This, this park I was passing. What is that park? Devotee: Prospect Park. Prabhupāda: Prospect Park. There is big gate, because there is a killing picture. Devotee: Yes. Praising the soldiers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Praising the soldiers. Prabhupāda: So, in this way . . . of course, soldiers killing and ordinary killing is not the same, but my point is that . . . that God gives you the law that you shall not kill. Now if . . . if you are violating that law, then how you can become religious? That is my question. Guest (1): Grace is . . . is nonviolence, nonkilling. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): That is part of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): What's the future of that in . . . in India today? Prabhupāda: That, not only in India. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not meant for India or America. Of course, I am deputed by my Guru Mahārāja to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the Western world. That is his grace. He wanted that Western people, who are intelligent, they should learn what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So my mission is for the Western country, but it is not meant for any particular country, nation. It is meant for every living entity. Now, there are many unfortunate living entities and there are many fortunate living entities. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in America or Western country, only the fortunate persons they are coming. But if few of them come and understand, then by their example and behavior, the whole population will be benefited. It is not expected that cent percent population will be able to understand this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But by the examples of the few, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). Just like you'll find in our temple it is always crowded to the fullest extent. We require a more spacious home. But not all of them our initiated student. Out of them, say ten percent may be our initiated student. But still, people are coming to see. They are following. Gradually they will also become student. So it is a very important movement, scientific movement. I therefore request learned scholars like you, government, scientist, philosopher, they should study. For them we have written so many books. Not only that. It is not that we are simply chanting and dancing. If you are philosopher, if you are scholar, if you are scientist, we can give you proof in a scientific way, in a philosophical way, scholarly way; therefore these books are there. So my only request is that all the leaders of the society, they should come forward, study this movement and take to it. That will be beneficial. We don't ask blindly, just like one follows some faith or type of religion blindly, and after some times they give it up. No. We say, our predecessor Lord Caitanya says, caitanyer dayār kathā karaha vicara (CC Adi 8.15). You just put your judgment about the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and if you do that . . . (aside) Come on . . . then you will find wonder in this movement. (aside) So you put little ice. Ice. Bring little ice. Hare Kṛṣṇa, come on. Yes. Thank you very much. (aside) So you accept this definition of religion, that religion means the law given by God. Simple point. Have you got any objection, or do you accept it? Guest (1): I accept that. I think religion is what you're doing. I think it's . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): I think religion is what I see right here. Prabhupāda: Right religion. Guest (1): I think it's great. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Yes. (laughter). Yes. So, what is our business with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . (aside) This child will disturb. Our this movement is that we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa. If I love Kṛṣṇa, or God, then naturally I will be obedient to the laws of God. Is it not? Just like these, my students, when, say four or five years ago, I came here, I had no student. I was loitering in the street. Nobody was caring for me. Now I have got hundreds and thousands of student. They can do whatever I order. So I did not pay them anything, neither I brought any money from India, but they are executing my order simply out of love. Is it not a fact? Because they have developed a love for me . . . the reason may be whatever it may be, but unless they have developed love for me, how they can execute my order without any personal profit? Therefore this is first thing required, that religion means to abide by the orders of God. Simple thing. And this obedience to the laws of God will be automatically performed if everyone loves his dormant love for God. We have taken this science. We are teaching everyone how to love God. If he thinks that, "I have learned to love God through some particular religion," we have no objection. Either he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim, or whatever he may be, if by executing the religious principles which he is professing he has developed his love of God, then we have nothing to preach to him. The result is there. But because we don't find the love of God is there, that we are putting a simple formula that "Here is the way." By utilizing or by accepting that way, he will very quickly love God. So if we—if we are convinced that to love God is religion, and that is our main business in the human form of life, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the genuine scientific movement. Everyone should take it. This is the position. But if somebody thinks that "My aim of life is different. I don't care for God," that is a different case. But our philosophy is, this human life is especially meant for developing that God consciousness or to know the art how to love God. Because the animals, they cannot. *I cannot preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy amongst the animals, because their consciousness is not so developed. But still, my movement is so perfect that I can do well even to the cats and dogs—by offering prasāda , by giving him chance to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . This vibration is transcendental. When it is chanted, it is good for everyone, all living entities. Therefore we go to the street and chant, so that everyone can hear the transcendental vibration. *So if it is accepted that religion means the law of God . . . is that accepted? Now we have to study what are the special laws of God and what is the nature of God. That is divine search. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand the nature of God, that He is the supreme father. Is there any objection? God is the supreme father. I think in Christian religion also they accept. Is it not? *Now, the supreme father says that all living entities, not only these human being or the civilized human being but even the animals, the trees, plants, the insects, birds, beasts, fishes or other aquatics—any living entity, even a small insect . . . living entity means who has got that vital force of moving. Some of them are not moving also, just like trees. They do not move, but still they are living entity. So from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand that all living entities, irrespective of bodily feature, they are sons of God. What do you think of this conception? Guest (1): I think it's probably . . . I think it's probably a better and more universal . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): . . . notion of life than . . . than you have in the somewhat more man*-centered Western philosophy of . . . Prabhupāda: That is defective. Guest (1): The problem, of course, is that you don't want man to somehow get lost in it all, but still I, yeah, where I am, I think that you would say . . . to agree with what you say . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . the universalism of it's very appealing. *Prabhupāda: No, we are not manufacturing this idea. That it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ (BG 14.4): in every species of life, whatever forms are there. And besides that, we take this body as dress. Just like your white shirt is not you. You are different from the white shirt. Similarly, one may have a body white or black, but he, as spirit soul, is different from the body. We are taking account of the person who is possessing the dress—not the dress, but the person. Just like I am talking with you, I am not talking with your shirt. I don't look to your shirt, whether you have put on a white shirt or black shirt. That is not my concern. I am concerned with you as a living being. This is our philosophy. We don't take account of the outward shirt and coat. This body, this gross body, is just like coat, and within this gross body there is subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. Within the subtle body, the spirit soul is there, and we are trying to deliver the spirit soul from these two kinds of entanglement, subtle and gross. That is our aim. The national movement or religious movement, that is more or less on the basis of the outward dress. One is Christian because he is born by a Christian father. Is it not? One is American because he is born on the land of America. We say that you are neither Christian nor American, Hindu, Muslim or Indian. You are servant of God eternally. Try to understand this fact, and make your life in that way. Then your life is successful. This is our . . . simple. Now what is your comment on this statement? Guest (1): I, uh, I'm enjoying everything you're saying, and I, I, I think maybe I should listen to some other questions now, to . . . Prabhupāda: So you are agreed to this? Guest (1): I, yeah, I like it. I like it. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Half*-agree. Half-agree. You "like" means half-agree. That's nice. Something is better than nothing. If it is half-agreed, that is better than at all not agreed, because . . . so what is the reaction of this statement of other boys and girls present here? You can tell? Devotee: I think that Prabhupāda solved all problems amongst all the people . . . (indistinct) . . . spirit soul. Guest (1): Are all spirit souls alike, or are they different? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest (1): Are spirit souls alike, or are they different? *Prabhupāda: Alike. (laughter) The dress is different, the spirit soul is the same. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: *Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ. A learned, really learned man, he sees everyone on the same level, because he sees to the spirit, and he is giving that a learned Brāhmin , a dog, an elephant, a low-born, everyone is on the same category of spirit soul. That is the vision of a learned scholar. He does not make any discrimination that, "Here is a dog" or "Here is a very learned scholar." His vision is, the dog is also entangled by this body and a learned scholar is also entangled by this body, but both the dog and the learned scholar, both of them are spirit soul. That is actual vision. The same example: that I am talking with you, not with your dress. I am not very much concerned with your white dress or black dress. I am concerned with you as person. Similarly, we are concerned with the soul, not with the outward body. That is our position. Yes? *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our fully developed state in the spiritual sky, are we still one ten*-thousandth the size of a tip of a hair like we are now in conditioned state? *Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there, that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. *We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten*-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly, when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. *This body you will have to give up—today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. We have to give it up. The Bhagavad*-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti , "He comes to Me." So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant. Similarly, if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must develop our dormant spiritual qualities, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is the training period for going back to home, back to Godhead. So . . . but after giving up this body or after this time's death, others who are dying, they do not know what next life they are getting. They, although they are proud of education, but they do not discuss what is the constitutional position of the soul, how he is transferring from one body to another, how it is to be done. This science is unknown to the modern education. Is it not? They do not know. They simply speculate. That is the defect of modern educational system. And actually, everyone is seeking for spiritual emancipation. Therefore in your country, in spite of so many big, big universities, you are producing hippies, hopeless population. Am I saying right or not? Your are university teacher. I have seen in so many universities. Guest (1): I like my students. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): I like my students. I think they're on the right track. Prabhupāda: No. You like your students, I like your students more, because I do not wish to see them in such frustrated condition. That is my mission. I want to make them happy. So I want to give them this information of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that they may get back life. I have received thousands of letter, those who have come to this life from frustration, how they are feeling obliged to me. (break) Hmm? Guest (2): Prabhupāda? You said in, in the past lecture that, uh, for one who wants to take up bhakti , the work that you're engaged in does not stop. This has been a source of confusion for myself, maybe other people. Could you sort of delineate what it meant by this? Devotee (1): He said that when you take up bhakti , the work does not stop. So he's confused. (video start): Prabhupāda: No. Bhakti . . . therefore we are defining bhakti . Definition of bhakti , it means, That is bhakti . Try to understand what is bhakti . You are following me? Or you come here? You come forward? You come forward? Try to understand what is bhakti . Bhakti means we have no other desire than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti . Just like Arjuna. Arjuna satisfied Kṛṣṇa by fighting, and he became a bhakta . In the battlefield Arjuna was hesitating, that "What is the use of killing my own . . . own men, my family men, my brothers, my nephews, my grandfather?" all on the other side. And he was to fight with them, fight with them and to kill them. So he was hesitating. He was a warrior, a very great warrior. He knew that, "I fight, I shall kill them. Although they have come to fight with me, they do not know, but I know. They are my men, so why shall I fight with them? Let them enjoy. I don't want." That was Arjuna's feeling. *But after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā , when he came to the understanding it is his duty to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, so he sacrificed his own conviction that he would not kill this men. He satisfied Kṛṣṇa, by the same art. He was a warrior. So he did not change his position. *After reading (hearing) Bhagavad*-gītā , he did not become a Vedāntist or went away to Himalaya for yoga practice, and gave up the fighting, battlefield. No. He did not change. But he changed his consciousness. That is wanted. Our, at the present moment our consciousness is that we are working for our own sense gratification. When this consciousness will be changed, that we have to work for satisfying Kṛṣṇa, then our life is perfect. You haven't got to change your work or position. But when you understand that you'll have to work not for your personal sense gratification, but for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, that is success of life. But there is no question of changing your position. Changing your consciousness—that is success. Guest (2): Can I ask another question? Prabhupāda: First of all, this is clear? Guest (2): It's very clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta does not mean that he'll have to change everything. No. He hasn't got to change anything. Simply he has to change his consciousness. That's all. This is bhakti —change, change his consciousness in favor of Kṛṣṇa. I am acting now, "I like this, to do." This is our position. "I like. I like to eat like this. I like to sleep like this." So present position, material position, means my liking, and spiritual position means Kṛṣṇa's liking. That's all. I agree to the Kṛṣṇa's like. Material position means I . . . I simply want to satisfy my liking. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to change this mentality, my liking, but to accept the principle of satisfying Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Can you get that light on. The other light. So bhakti means to act according to Kṛṣṇa's liking. Is it clear? Guest (2): It's clear. Prabhupāda: It does not mean change of place, change of occupation. Change of mentality. That's all Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . we're engaged in some occupation that Kṛṣṇa does not like? Devotee (1): What if you're engaged in some occupation which Kṛṣṇa does not like? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from the Kṛṣṇa's representative: what He likes, what He does not like. Guest (3): We should accordingly give it up immediately? *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to accept spiritual master. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8). If the spiritual master is pleased, then you know Kṛṣṇa is pleased. If Kṛṣṇa . . . if spiritual master is displeased, then you know that Kṛṣṇa is displeased. You cannot be in contact with Kṛṣṇa at the present moment, in the beginning; therefore you require the help of Kṛṣṇa's representative to learn whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased or Kṛṣṇa is not pleased. But your business is to please Kṛṣṇa. Guest (4): I'm not living in the temple now. I'm working and I'm married. So what should my activities be like? Prabhupāda: You should make your home a temple. What is the difference between temple and home? This is a temple. Next house is a house. This is also made of brick and stone; that is also made of brick and stone. But it is called temple, because here the business is Kṛṣṇa; and that is called house, because there is no Kṛṣṇa business. So if you make your house Kṛṣṇa business, then that is also temple. You do the same thing as the members here are doing—in your apartment, in your house, with your wife and children. You earn independently, spend independently; so do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then your house is temple. That, that we want. Here the temple means we are simply giving example how to live. So this example can be followed everywhere. *Every house can be turned into a temple. Here everything is Kṛṣṇa*-centered. Similarly, if at . . . in your home, you make Kṛṣṇa center, not you center, then your home is also a temple. (pause) Yes? Woman guest: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I understand Kṛṣṇa as being Supreme Controller of all activities that happen in this material world . . . Prabhupāda: I do not follow. I do not follow. Either you hear . . . Devotee (1): "I understand Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme Controller of all activities in the material world." Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman guest: . . . and so how can Kṛṣṇa allow animal slaughter and other such māyā's activities, to take place under His control? Devotee (1): "How can Kṛṣṇa allow animal slaughter and other activities of māyā ?" Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not allow animal slaughter. Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the father of every living entity." Just like father, he has got ten sons: some of them are like animals. But those who are advanced in knowledge, if such sons request the father that, "My other brothers are useless. Let us kill them and eat," will the father agree? Will the father say: "Yes, my . . . these sons are useless. You kill them and eat"? Will the father say? Woman guest: No. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has no sanction for animal killing. We are doing, violating the laws of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are becoming entangled in sinful activities. We are doing that. Kṛṣṇa does not sanction. Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā : These are the qualities to be developed. You cannot be violent. You cannot kill animals. This is violation of God's law. Just like in Bible it is stated, "Thou shall not kill." So those who are killing, they are violating the laws of God and become, I mean to say, liable to be punished, criminals. But, Kṛṣṇa does not say. The governments does not say that you kill your fellow man. If you kill, then you will be hanged. The government says. But when you kill your fellow man, it is your responsibility; it is not government's responsibility. Similarly, when you kill another fellow human being, that is your responsibility. It is not Kṛṣṇa's responsibility. (pause) Yes. Guest (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard different procedures for acquiring a name, Kṛṣṇa conscious name. What is the procedure now? . . . (indistinct) . . . has it changed and so forth ? Prabhupāda: Our procedure—we are asking everybody to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . That simple thing will help you in every respect. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then gradually you will be enlightened in all other subject. And you will do it yourself. Make association with devotees. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . This is our procedure. *Guest (6): In your books you claim that we're in the Kali*-yuga age. Is the Kali-yuga age coming to a close now? *Prabhupāda: No. It will continue for another 427,000's of years. The age of Kali*-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that we have passed only 5,000 years. The balance is 427,000's of years. And it will become, the condition of society, world, will be worse. *Not better, but worse. In the last stage of Kali*-yuga there will be no food grains, no milk, no fruits. So very horrible time. People will kill their own children and eat just like animals. So the last stage of Kali-yuga it will be like that. So before coming to that stage, better to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go back to Kṛṣṇa. That is our position. We don't wish to wait for the worst thing. The worse things are already happening; and it will be still more worse. So instead of waiting up to that time, better be perfect by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our position. (pause) Yes? Devotee (2): As a devotee now that's in the temple, is it good consciousness, do you think, that Kṛṣṇa may be presenting many opportunities to serve, but I would prefer to do a particular thing that I like best, rather than consulting the authorities as to what should be done? Prabhupāda: Yes, what we are doing, you see; you do it. What should be done, that we are practically doing. You do the same thing. We are talking of Kṛṣṇa from so many books, we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, we are chanting of Kṛṣṇa, we are eating Kṛṣṇa's prasāda . Our whole day and night is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. This is to be done. Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . (devotees offer obeisances) (break) Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Guest (3): Yes. I have some of them. Nitāi dāsa at Columbia, he sees that we are well supplied. Devotee (1): We have a college program there, Columbia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): Nitāi is running. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. (pause) You can give these . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (to tape) Paul Valliere here. P. A. U. L. V. A. L. L. I. E. R. E Columbia University. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Jaya . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . just have a clean place like this which I am talking, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read all these books and try to inform your audience about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty. We can open a center anywhere, and anywhere will be pleased to hear about Kṛṣṇa. So it is not a difficult task. Simply the worker must be sincere; then everything is all right. Just like I came to your country alone. I had no friend. I was sitting alone on the Tompkinsons Square Park and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gradually they came. So similarly you can do. What is the difficulty? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . in Harlem three weeks ago. I wrote you a letter, but he didn't get it, telling all the things a lot of people are coming, people chanting in the streets . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. This process is already there. Simply we have to execute, that's all. It is not difficult, and it is not limited to any certain neighborhood or any kind of population. No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Devotee (3): As far as . . . there are two temples which are going to be in Harlem, for . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): There is two new temples being started; one in Harlem, and there is another one. The one in Harlem has authority. In other words, a qualified individual to, you know, carry out the prescribed activities that are supposed to be performed in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness temple. And the question was, was basically for this new temple that is being started, some authority to be recommended for that particular temple, to give a basic, you know, foundation in bringing, you know, the temple up to brahminical standards. Prabhupāda: This is a branch of ISKCON? That is authority. Devotee (3): Right. In other words, someone who, you know, is just like a temple president? Prabhupāda: Yes. So that you select amongst yourself. Who is more competent, elect him as president. Everywhere one must be leader. That you select your leader. As you select your President, similarly, you select your president in this connection. Devotee (3): So that would be bona fide, by, you know . . . (indistinct) . . . making. Prabhupāda: That, that man which is initiated. Ātreya Ṛṣi: The selected man must be initiated. Devotee (3): Right. Jaya . Jaya. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . excuse me 1:08:43 Prabhupada (SM Prabhupāda) I was wondering about that at the moment in several of our temples, we have . . . (indistinct) . . . city of Chicago. I was wondering, if in checking with the temple president, if it is his decision . . . Prabhupāda: To select a president means there must be discipline. Without obedience . . . without discipline, they cannot be obedience. Devotee (4): What I meant to ask was, what if the president at the other temple that I'm at now . . . (indistinct) . . . my services I'm more needed there. Prabhupāda: President is spiritual master's representative, that's all. Spiritual master is not present . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore one man is selected as president to look after the business on behalf of the spiritual master. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This Godbrother is in another temple, in Midwest, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And he says, "If my president says to stay and engage, should I leave and come to start this in Harlem?" Or should he stay in his present temple in Midwest? Prabhupāda: That you consider with the GBC member. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Consult GBC with this. Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, in . . . (indistinct) . . . only one of us was initiated at the time. And it is good to have initiated devotees to go in . . . go at the temple, to open . . . Prabhupāda: At least the president must be initiated. Devotee (4): So there is only one of us. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Two. Devotee (5): Two. Devotee: Three. There or four. Devotee (6): Me and . . . (indistinct) . . . are helping out one chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . and now one woman is giving her house, anyway . . . (indistinct) . . . so we are going to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The president may be initiated and start immediately. Maybe Ātreya Ṛṣi . . .? Devotee (6): He is initiated. Prabhupāda: Eh? He is initiated. Devotee (6): I'm initiated. I can be . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. Begin like that. Or some others who are qualified they can be also initiated. Qualification is that he must follow the regulative principles. That is the qualification. Yes? Devotee (7): I came to New York from Detroit, with recommendation from Bhāgavata dāsa . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (7): . . . to be initiated, I have my letter with me… Prabhupāda: So you will be initiated, that's nice. So anyone or any one of you, when you agree to follow the regulative principles, and if you are recommended by our men, then you can also be initiated. It is not difficult. Initiation is formality. First of all you have to decide whether you will abide by the rules and regulation and become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is your consideration. You have to think yourself whether you are going to take seriously this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is your decision. Initiation is formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. So if you have understood the Kṛṣṇa philosophy, and if you have decided that you will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously and preach the philosophy to others, that is your initiation. My touching is simply formality. It is your determination that is initiation. Devotee (4): Like there was some difficulty that arrived in Cleveland temple with some of the . . . lacks in devotees there. Prabhupāda: Well, that is just due to lack of knowledge. You see? But after all, we are trained up in a different way. So these things will go on as you make progress. We should not be solving problems. Suppose . . . Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has instructed that we should be a little tolerant. Suppose if somebody treats you not properly because you have got a different skin. It is his ignorance, and it is your also ignorance when you feeling insulted. You should know that, "He has insulted my skin, not to me." Suppose if I say: "Why you have taken this blue shirt?" So I may say like that, but it is not very important to. You may take it blue shirt or a white shirt, it doesn't matter. You are eternally Kṛṣṇa's servant. If you keep that consciousness you won't feel insulted. This is socially going on in the material world; sometimes we cannot check it. So these are to happen; therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā . (CC Adi 17.31). If you are to do business, then we have to learn how to tolerate. Devotee (4): So not only here in New York, but in the near future would it be all right to, to, ah, to be able to establish something in . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Try. By that way you will be able to serve Kṛṣṇa very rightly and as soon as you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, your life is successful. That's all. Woman devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can we please you the most? Ātreya Ṛṣi: How can she please you most? (laughter) Prabhupāda: How do you want to please me? Woman devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will please me. Always, twenty*-four hours chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma. There is no expenditure. So Kṛṣṇa has given you the tongue, you utilize the tongue, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. That will please me. Is that all right? (end) Conversation with Sumati Morarjee -- July 11, 1972, London Sumati Morarjee: Kaise ho ap aj aye? Hume pata hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mujhe abhi bola inhone ke ap aj ane wale hai. Ap aj ane wale hai. Ye London me hi hai. (How are you, have you come today? I knew it . . . (indistinct) . . . he told me just now that you are going to come today. He is in London.) Prabhupāda: Accha, bohot khushi hui. Juhu to apka hi hai. (Okay. I am very happy to see you. Anyway Juhu belongs to you only.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha ji. Mai usko bulati hu na, apka waha Giriraj hai usko. To abhi duble kaise ho gaye? (Yes. I call him, your Giriraja who stays there. So how did you become so lean?) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . kha nahi sakte. Old liver ho gaya. Hajam nahi hota. (. . . (indistinct) . . . can't eat anything. The liver has become old. Digestion isn't functioning.) Sumati Morarjee: Kyu? To kya khate ho? Dusre kuch khate nahi?) (Why? So what do you eat then? Don't you eat anything else?) Prabhupāda: Zyada thoda fruit khate hai. Dusra khane se hajam nahi hota. Dudh pite hai. Dudh bhi thik hajam nahi hota. Gas ho jata hai. Wahi thoda bohot fruit . . . (I eat some fruits. Any other thing is not digestible for me. I drink milk but I cannot digest even that properly. Gas formation takes place. Little bit of fruits, that's all . . .) Sumati Morarjee: Ha wo to hai abhi. Nahi, bohot nahi hoga abhi. Gas ho jata hai. To ap dudh me wo kyu nahi dalte ho? (That is true. You can't digest too much milk. Gas formation takes place. So why don't you add something in your milk?) Prabhupāda: Kya? Kya? (What? What?) Dry powder or . . . ? Thoda sa. Jaisa pau, der pau. Accha. (Little bit. One glass, one and a half glasses.) Sumati Morarjee: Ek tukda adarak ka. Jab dudh garam karne ko rakhe to usko barikh karke ekdum . . . wo koi bhi, yaha nahi milta to dry. To usme thoda dalke ap shakkar dalte ho? Thodi si shakkar dalke usko garam karo. Aur usme apni ye masale jo haldi nahi ati nahi to kesar. Do me se ek. Wo dalke, aur thoda garam karke aur dhak rakho phir aisa bohot kuchalke aur phir chahiye to ap piyo sadharan garam. Ha bas ek glass dudh hoga . . . glass me kitna, ek chota sa yaha chimchi rehti hai na. Wo ye lete hai rai bhi. Nahi, mustard ke liye. Bas ek choti si chimchi andar ye daliye adarak, wo sukha powder aur thoda sa ye daliye kesar aur usko accha garam karke thodi . . . (One piece of ginger. When you put the milk for boiling, cut it into very fine pieces . . . anything will do, if it is not available here then dry powder can be used. So after adding it in milk, do you add sugar? Add a little bit of sugar and heat it. Then there are spices like turmeric or saffron. Any one between the two. Add it, then heat the milk and cover it, then you can crush it very nicely and drink the milk at a normal temperature. One glass of milk will do . . . how much, only one small spoon that we have. That we use to take mustard. Add one small spoon of ginger, that dry powder and saffron, then heat it nicely.) Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) You understand what is kesar? Kesar is saffron. Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: You know saffron? When you prepare milk from Swāmījī, you got dry ginger powder, put a little, and little saffron. Śyāmasundara: Saffron. Sumati Morarjee: And sugar. And heat it, and keep it some time, and then properly mix it, and then . . . not very cold or anything. Little hot you'll give it to him, and that will improve his digestion. Because this sort of gas trouble won't be there, due to age, with this. Prabhupāda: Our example, gosāi , gosvāmī , all the gosvāmīs . . . let me speak in English. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: The gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, they're nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . Sumati Morarjee: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Nidrā āhāra vihāra . Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca rādhā-kṛṣṇa-padāravinda-bhajanānandena mattālikau . Āhāra nidrā . Ye sab ahara nidra, ye sab chod diya. Vijita. Jaya kar liya. Usko jaya nahi kar sakte. (They gave up this sleeping and eating. Vijita. They conquered it. It is not possible to conquer.) Āhāra nidrā . . . vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau . The Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was, at that time, five hundred years ago, his father's income was twelve lakhs of rupees. Sumati Morarjee: I know Jīva Gosvāmī, Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, or Rūpa, Sanātana. *Prabhupāda: Rūpa*-Sanātana was minister, minister. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. And that you know, those other two also, what is their name? They were also very high up. Prabhupāda: Rāmānanda Rāya? Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Rāmānanda Rāya. Prabhupāda: He was governor. Sumati Morarjee: And Ācārya ? Prabhupāda: Yes, Bhaṭṭa . . . Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. Sumati Morarjee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: You have read in my books, *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, the whole Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , Caitanya's life, and all that, it is written by Prabhodatta brahmacārī. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: I have read that. Prabhupāda: Ah, Hindi. Sumati Morarjee: Hindi. Revatīnandana: We stayed in his āśrama in Allahabad . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, so . . . Devotee: . . . Prabhodatta brahmacārī's āśrama . *Sumati Morarjee: To ap ye uska translation kar rahe hai? Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ka? (So are you translating it? Of Caitanya-caritāmṛta ?) Prabhupāda: Kiska? Cai . . . to hai. (Which one? Cai . . . that is there already.) *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Show him. Śyāmasundara: TLC. Prabhupāda: Our latest books can be shown. All the books. You have got this book? Sumati Morarjee: No. Swāmījī ap ne to bohot kiya hai. Abhi ap chale mat jana, pura kam karna. Kyu apne jo kiya hai na aisa dusra jaldi nahi karega. Ye badi se apki niche murti bohot sundar hai. Bohot. Us din mai arti me ai thi. (Swāmījī, you have done a lot. Just don't leave right now, complete the mission first. This is because no one can do what you have done in such a short time. The big Deity downstairs is very beautiful. I came for ārtī that day.) (Śyāmasundara explains about books to gentleman in background) *Prabhupāda: Apka Baba, Ma ka ashirvad hai. Ap log sab bata dijiye. Nahi humara Bombay ka murti bhi bohot sundar hai. Bohot sundar. To ap log sab mil karke sab mandir*-vandir banaiye. (The blessings of my parents are with me. You all can tell. Our Deities in Bombay are also very beautiful. Very beautiful. So you all cooperatively build the temple.) Sumati Morarjee: Bohot sundar. Wo to ban raha hai par ap chale mat jana. Kyu ki wo to aisa hai na ap to sant ho. Humari bat alag hai. Hum log to yaha duniya me phase huye hai. Ap sant ho.To sant ki bat to alag hai. (Very beautiful. That is already under construction but you don't go away. Because you are a saint. Our case is different. We are trapped in this material world. You are a saint. So a saint is completely different.) Prabhupāda: Nahi ap to sant ka sevika hai. Ap to pehle humko ane to diya tha tabhi to hua tha. Apke pas maine pahucha jo ap humko jane dijiye to ap bohot anand se humko diya tha jane ko. (No, but I am a servant of that saint. You only allowed me to come here so this has happened. When I approached you for allowing me to go, then you joyfully gave me the permission.) Sumati Morarjee: Wo alag bat hai Swāmījī. Par aisa hai na ke jo ap kar sakte ho . . . khari bat. Us din bolti thi . . . arrey mere ko to badi chinta ho gayi thi ap gaye jab. Maine to ek accha brahman kula Captain hoga uska . . . Captain Pandia us din aya tha wo? Abhi aya tha mere ko milke. Ha, bohot sajjan. Banaras ke hai na, Gita. To abhi ayi thi mere pas. (That is a different thing. But the thing is what you can do . . . perfectly true. I was saying that day . . . I was extremely worried when you left. I thought that a nice brahmin Captain would be . . . didn't Captain Pandia come that day? He came to meet me recently. Yes, a great gentleman. He is from Banaras, *Gītā* . She also came to meet me.) Prabhupāda: Wo Pandia khub . . . Pandia aur unko patni. Ladki, wo bohot . . . Gita. (Pandia was extremely . . . Pandia and his wife. His daughter, she was very . . . *Gītā* .) She is very nice. And she is a good astrologer. Sumati Morarjee: O mere ko nahi malum. (Oh, I do not know.) *Prabhupāda: That little girl, young girl, she saw my palm, and she said: "Swāmījī, if you can surpass seventy*-one years, then you will live hundred years." (laughter) And on seventy-first year I was . . . Sumati Morarjee: . . . (indistinct) . . . bohot accha hai. Ap ka movement bohot accha chalega. Ye to bohot acchi bat boli hai. (. . . (indistinct) . . . that is very nice. Your movement will continue very nicely. This is a very nice thing that she has said.) I know. Ap bohot bimar ho gaye the. Ha bohot gaya tha parishram. (You were extremely sick. Yes, a lot of hard work had to be done.) Prabhupāda: Bohot bimar ho gaya tha. Wo to death hi tha. Wo to khali Bhagavan bacha liya . . . (I was extremely sick. It was factually death. By God's grace I was saved . . .) very strong heart attack in New York. I fell down, heart attack. Parishram bohot hua tha. Din rat parishram kiya. To ab idhar lekin jagah nahi hai. Jagah, ye place bada important hai. Important hai, baki accommodation . . . (a lot of hard work had to be done. I toiled day and night. But we don't have sufficient space here. This place is very important. It is important but accommodation . . .) we have no sufficient accommodation. Sumati Morarjee: Nahi, accha nahi hai. Maine wahi us din dekha to inko bola ki jagah. Bohot accha hai. (No, it is not good. I told them that day about the lack of space. The location is very good.) Hall is very small. Prabhupāda: To idhar bhi ek mandir banana hai accha. (So, a nice temple has to be built here.) Therefore I am asking them. So, some gentlemen here, they say that, "You try, money will be raised here. It will be not difficult." So I'm asking that find out some place. Sumati Morarjee: To kaha ap dhundhoge? Wo apka ye cathedral ka kya hua? (Where are you going to search? What happened to that cathedral?) Prabhupāda: Three hundred million dollars . . . ah, three hundred million pounds? Sumati Morarjee: Pounds. Śyāmasundara: What did he say? Dhanañjaya: What is this? Prabhupāda: That, er . . . Dhanañjaya: Kingsway Hall? Two and a half million pounds. Sumati Morarjee: Kingsway House. Śyāmasundara: Two and a half million pounds. Kingsway Hall. Prabhupāda: Still it is open. Dhanañjaya: No, no. It's gone to a businessman. We, we offered one and a half million pounds, and it went to the businessman for two and a half million pounds. Prabhupāda: Ah. Revatīnandana: They asked three million. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: They asked for three million pounds, and they got two and a half million for it . . . (indistinct) . . . half million pounds. Śyāmasundara: It's just around the corner. Revatīnandana: It's a very nice place, but I couldn't imagine . . . Sumati Morarjee: To yaha mil sakta hai aisa jagah? (So, can you find such a place here?) Prabhupāda: Ha mil sakta hai. Jagah bohot hai. Wo church bhi hai par rupaya kaha hai humare pas. Rupaya to jo kuch thoda dhukta hai, kitab chapa deta hu. (Yes, we can find it. There is plenty available. There is that church also but where is the money? Whatever money comes, I print books with that.) Sumati Morarjee: Wo to ap bohot bada kam kar rahe ho. (This is a very great work you are doing.) Revatīnandana: So Mātājī's . . . if some of these books she hasn't got, we can give her. She's our Life Member. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, just now I am. Prabhupāda: She is life . . . she is life after life. (laughter) She is life after life member. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, but I'll talk to this, ah, Girirāja in Bombay about becoming the patron myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: I said, "Let us see." Prabhupāda: We . . . let us form a trustee, and you become the president of the Trust. (laughter) You become the president of the trustee, and do the needful. Sumati Morarjee: You know, just now that your . . . Prabhupāda: So, whether you agree to this or not? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately make her the president of the trustee, or Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: No, you see. Prabhupāda: Girirāja is also very nice boy. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, everyday he is there, because he says: "I want you . . ." Prabhupāda: You like him? Sumati Morarjee: He's a good man. Prabhupāda: Very good. Sumati Morarjee: "I want your advice." So first day I called him, he came. I said: "You I don't want. Where is that Śyāmasundara?" (laughter) Prabhupāda: His father is very rich man. Sumati Morarjee: Is he? Prabhupāda: His father is a very big lawyer, and mother, father, both came to me Calcutta. Mother, after all mother, she was crying, that "Give me back my boy." (laughter) So I, "You can take away your boy." So anyway, they are very good gentlemen. So . . . but he has . . . he's graduate in psychology. He's learned. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, he's a very nice man. So I asked him just now, I'm running a school. I said: "You come and, uh, give lecture," mean some stories . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you give some fruits? Sumati Morarjee: . . . to the children. No, I will take this. You give me a piece of paper, can you? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll take this for the children. Dhanañjaya: Isn't there some prasāda also, that's still out there in the . . . Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you give me . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara. Śyāmasundara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Immediately write one letter to Girirāja that, uh, I'll suggest some names for becoming trustee, or you can suggest some of the Life Members you know. Sumati Morarjee: I know so many, but . . . ap suggest kariye. Ap Bombay kabhi ane wale ho? Abhi ap kitna din rahoge? Accha Swāmījī ap yaha kitna din . . . (you suggest. When are you coming to Bombay? How many days are you going to stay here? Okay Swāmījī, how many days . . .) *Prabhupāda: Bombay thoda idhar ka kam dekh*-dakh ke jayenge. Ap dekhiye na, humko ghumne dijjiye. Jaisa ap ne pehle force lagaya na. Starting apne to diya, to humko ghumne dijiye. (I will go to Bombay after checking out the work here. You look after it and let me keep touring. Just like you put an effort in the beginning. You made the start so let me go on a tour.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha to ap yaha kitne din theherne wale ho? Bas. Phir. October me ap kaha hoge? (Okay, so how many days are you going to stay here? That's all. Then. Where are you going to be in October?) Prabhupāda: Jaise ek mahina. (Around one month.) Paris. Maybe Nairobi. Then either Los Angeles or to India. October me to zarur India me jayenge. Udhar Los Angeles me ek makan kharidna hai. (In October, I will surely go to India. We have to buy an apartment in Los Angeles.) Because whatever that Māyāpur . . . you have been in Nava . . . Navadvīpa? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have been to Navadvīpa, Māyāpur, Śāntipura, then that Katwa. All those places I have visited. Prabhupāda: So Māyāpur we are constructing a big temple. And Vṛndāvana also. So, for maintenance of the temple perpetually, I want to purchase some property in Los Angeles, because here, Los Angeles, property gets nice income. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: Los Angeles. Indian man: Good income? Prabhupāda: Yes, because any ordinary room is about a $125. So $125 in our Indian exchange is about thousand rupees. So, thousand rupees, two rooms, who will pay in India? Sumati Morarjee: No. Nobody will pay. Prabhupāda: (laughter) Nobody will pay. So then therefore I thought that to purchase one, two house, so that as Vṛndāvana property . . . because I am maintaining now the whole institution by begging. But when Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa deities are there, there is no income. Sumati Morarjee: No, there won't be any. Both places . . . Prabhupāda: In Bombay we can go to you, "Mātājī, we have no money. Please give me some." Sumati Morarjee: No, that is different, but these things . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, so, but Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa I want to make some provision. So I'm negotiating for that. This is one business. So Bombay . . . Bombay ke liye to ap hi . . . (For Bombay, you yourself are . . .) huh? Sumati Morarjee: Of course, you won't get so much rent for London properties. They're also very much appreciated. Prabhupāda: London property is very costly. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, very costly, but they're day by day appreciating. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Doubled. In one year it's doubled. Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Forty percent has gone up in a year's time, on one property. Prabhupāda: Because the Indians are coming. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, they'll take all the property. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Sumati Morarjee: And started taking all the shops. All the cinema theaters. Prabhupāda: And London is practically now Indian. Sumati Morarjee: I always say that I see more Indians in London than really the people who are . . . Prabhupāda: Ye idhar bhi ap khada hoke khatiye, ek mandir accha banaiye na. Nahi, ye public hai interesting. Ap thoda din thehriye na toh idhar bhi ho jayega. Dus tarikh ke bad. Accha. (So you stay here and work hard, build one nice temple. No, the public is interested. If you stay here then the work will be done. After tenth. Okay.) Sumati Morarjee: Ha wo to hoga. Abhi to mere ko to jane ka hai aur mai October ke dus tarikh ko yaha ane wali hu. Nahi, dus me to mera meeting hai. To do char din pehle mai aungi. October char pach ko. To ap kabhi jane wale ho Swāmījī? (Yes, that will be done. Now, I have to go and I will be coming here on 10th October. No, on the tenth I have a meeting. I will come two to four days earlier. October 4th or 5th. So when are you going to leave Swāmījī?) Oh, so much prasāda . Dhanañjaya: Oh, we have prepared just a little for you. Sumati Morarjee: All right. I'll take and send it back, because the children are at home. Prabhupāda: All right, all right, all right. Sumati Morarjee: I'll take, send you back your vessels. Did he give you last time? Prabhupāda: So if you have got some paper, you wrap it. Śyāmasundara: Here's a bag. Sumati Morarjee: So now, what . . . what is your problem? Ah, this is better. Prabhupāda: Ek ap hukum kar dijiye. Ki ek . . . (You issue an order. That one . . .) this boy, he's president of . . . of my Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: So what does he want? Prabhupāda: He wants to give me some car. To usko dispatch karne ka bandobast kar do. Ha, Detroit me. To idhar bhejna hai, phir apka jahaj me. Nahi, India me. (So make some arrangement to dispatch it. Yes, in Detroit. So it will be sent here, then on your ship. No, in India.) *Sumati Morarjee: Ha, wo . . . kaha Detroit me? Kaha bhejega, yaha? (Yes, that . . . where, in Detroit? Where will he send it, here?) So ask . . . you write to me a letter in Bombay, Scindia address, that such*-and-such car, so when is the ship due in Detroit. And then I will let you know, finding out the whole detail. Because UK office doesn't know the movement of the American ships. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: It's only Bombay who . . . which knows. So you write me in a letter to Bombay. Prabhupāda: When everything is settled up. Sumati Morarjee: When you are settled, when is the ship due, and we want to send. So there won't be any trouble in port? Prabhupāda: That he'll clear up. Sumati Morarjee: You better clear first. Śyāmasundara: Yeah . . . Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise what happens. Śyāmasundara: Kṣīrodakaśāyī knows. Sumati Morarjee: Government of India doesn't allow any import of car in India; otherwise you will come . . . Prabhupāda: His, his admission is that I am the guru of the Americans. I have no car. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: I know. But if, how, you have to take either through the American Embassy permission or government of India's permission is needed. Śyāmasundara: Yes, but Prabhupāda is an alien registered as living in the United States, so he can take his personal car. Prabhupāda: I am immigrant. I am immigrant, and I think I heard that one who has lived in America more than three years, he can take. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, you can bring car. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is the law, I think. Sumati Morarjee: So you can find out all this from India office. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, Gurudāsa can do that. Sumati Morarjee: And then will give you in Indian High Commission all details. Prabhupāda: Another, another is that we get some incense imported from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: I know. So what is that incense? Śyāmasundara: Punks. Punks. Prabhupāda: Punks. Śyāmasundara: Just a punk. Sumati Morarjee: Can you show me? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Show me some. Prabhupāda: Show, show, Spiritual Sky. Sumati Morarjee: I know, we also use that incense, but, uh, I don't know the name of it. Prabhupāda: So kindly get them carried from Hong Kong to Los Angeles. Sumati Morarjee: So let us see. Śyāmasundara: They're punks, without any scent, and then it . . . Sumati Morarjee: I know it . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: And when they come here, then they dip them into oil and make a scent. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Sumati Morarjee: That's why I . . . Prabhupāda: You get from Hong Kong . . . Sumati Morarjee: And take where? Prabhupāda: Huh? Take to Los Angeles. That is a . . . Sumati Morarjee: No, but one thing, if it is brought to Bombay via Hong Kong, then we can send it to Los Angeles by ship. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: By ship we can send it. Prabhupāda: Your ship does not go to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Sometimes it goes. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: So, at that time it is handed over to Hong Kong ship. It will be delivered in Bombay. Then we reship it to Hong Kong . . . to Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Is that on a regular basis, that it goes to Hong Kong? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, mostly. I'll let you know, because that service is also Bombay. These people, they don't know. So you can write one letter for this car, and another letter for this, so they're not intermixed. Prabhupāda: Yes, all right. Scindia Steam Navigation meant for carrying Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Everytime we carry. Prabhupāda: That was written in the beginning. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I think it was done by . . . at your expense. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That small pamphlet. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Scindia Steam Navigation Company carries Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to Western countries. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. She's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. In her office there is Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: These Gujaratis are especially, worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and they belong to Bhāratia community. They're all Vaiṣṇava. The whole, I have to say, Viṣṇu Svāmī Sampradāya, or Vallabha Ācārya Sampradāya. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, Vallabhācārya. Prabhupāda: Their guru . Sumati Morarjee: Vallabhācārya is our guru . *Prabhupāda: So, they, they're originally all Vaiṣṇava family. All Vaiṣṇava family. Bāla*-Kṛṣṇa. They are worship of Bāla-Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Śyāmasundara: I have that Gujarati Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we're printing the Gujarati Back to Godhead. Sumati Morarjee: What? Let me, what is it? Prabhupāda: We have got some . . . giving, give her that. Sumati Morarjee: This is from where you get? Prabhupāda: Yes, we get from Hong Kong. Sumati Morarjee: Hong Kong. Why, is it good? *Prabhupāda: No, it is not good. It is raw. That we re*-scent it . . . Sumati Morarjee: How? Prabhupāda: . . . different, in different way. Bhagavān: They dip it into oils. Prabhupāda: Scented oil. That's . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, and then it becomes . . . Dhanañjaya: They're known as firelighters, because sometimes they use them for lighting fireworks. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Oh, I know now. I understand. So you can present, tell me. Yes, this is Dvārakādīśa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvārakādīśa to apka hai. (Dvārakādīśa belongs to you only.) Sumati Morarjee: So you, you have started? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have started. Śyāmasundara: It's printed in Bombay. Sumati Morarjee: Where? Śyāmasundara: In Bombay. Prabhupāda: Recently. Śyāmasundara: This is the first one. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, because I have not seen it. Śyāmasundara: This is the first issue. Prabhupāda: This is the first issue. They have sent one copy. (knock on door) Yes? Sumati Morarjee: So, Swāmījī, can I take this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you can take. Sumati Morarjee: So you must, you . . . initials. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, here. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: And this also, so I will always remember that I've been in London to meet Swāmījī, my . . . Swāmījī's godson. Dhanañjaya: And you're also president now, board of trustees. Prabhupāda: You, president, you give her this garland. Sumati Morarjee: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: But did you put it round Swāmījī's head? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Then I can take prasāda garland of Swāmījī. Dhanañjaya: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: Jaya. Haribol . Prabhupāda: You consider Śrīmati Morarji as the mother of the Institution. (laughter) Dhanañjaya: And you're our father. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Because, you see, today, then Swāmījī was in so much trouble, I still remember. He wrote to me some letter from America that, "I am sitting in the Central Park, all alone." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Daddy can't be alone. You've got so many students, you have no time to be alone. Prabhupāda: I was going to your agent's office, Battery . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, Battery Place. Prabhupāda: Seventeen Battery Place. Sumati Morarjee: Yeah, 17 Battery Place. Prabhupāda: So I was asking him, "Find out when Scindia Navigation is going back." He said such and such date. "All right." Then I thought, "Let me stay another month, what I can do." Then again I was going . . . Sumati Morarjee: To find out. Prabhupāda: Find out. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know . . . Prabhupāda: . . . so he said: "Swāmījī, you are coming to find out, but you are not going back. What is?" (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: Because you know, there was one old man, now he has retired, who used to look after all service in that office. So he wrote to me that, "This Swāmījī wants to come. What to do?" I said: "Yes, whenever he wants to come." Prabhupāda: No, I got return ticket. Sumati Morarjee: "Yes, so you send him back, if he wants to come. But see that a good captain is on the ship." Then, uh, then . . . once he . . . came to Bombay, said: "Swāmī doesn't come." I said: "Now he won't come." (Prabhupāda laughs) And also give me, Swāmījī, that Gujarati . . . so I'll preserve all this. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, yes. *Dhanañjaya: Remember you were asking me just a few days ago about Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam ? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, I was. I heard Swāmījī, you know, came to my house to read. Rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: From Bhāgavata . That is supposed to be the . . . Prabhupāda: Now, when I shall go to Juhu, I shall regularly begin all Bhāgavata . Sumati Morarjee: I want to hear, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: Yes, all Bhāgavata . *Sumati Morarjee: And you know, rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya is really the pañca-prāṇa of Bhāgavata; *otherwise it is all right. There is nothing important. That is the real soul of the Bhāgavata , this rāsa*-pañca-adhyāya . Prabhupāda: (to devotee) You have got duplicate copies of this? Sumati Morarjee: Have you got? Otherwise don't give me. Bhagavān: Yes, I have some copies I brought. Prabhupāda: All right, then that's all right. Sumati Morarjee: He has come from where? Bhagavān: Myself? I just came from Detroit. Sumati Morarjee: Detroit. And this Swāmījī from where? Revatīnandana: I'm staying here, in London. Sumati Morarjee: No, but you come from where? Prabhupāda: He's from America. Revatīnandana: From California. Sumati Morarjee: All from California? Śyāmasundara: He travels around England and preaches in all the villages, small towns. Sumati Morarjee: Where's that? Śyāmasundara: Here, in England, Scotland. Revatīnandana: I also met you in Bombay once. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, I have seen you in Bombay. And what about you? Dhanañjaya: I'm Scottish. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, because you look . . . Prabhupāda: In Edinburgh we have got a temple. Sumati Morarjee: Is it? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nice temple Sumati Morarjee: This Swāmījī's from there. Śyāmasundara: This boy is son of a Muslim family, Pakistani family. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so you have come from Pakistan. Devotee: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Which side? Devotee: Lahore, West Pakistan. Sumati Morarjee: I have been to Lahore. We had a very big office in Karachi. I've been to Karachi so many time. Next to, you know, the . . . (indistinct) . . . the office area. Prabhupāda: Now, what is the position of Pakistan now? Sumati Morarjee: Today that Bhutto is come and gone. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: You know he has left for today for Pakistan back. He came to see the Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Here? Sumati Morarjee: No, our Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: Oh, our Prime Minister. Sumati Morarjee: And they were both met in Simla for four days, five days, and then they discussed various thing, and now they have come to an understanding that everything must be mutually done, and with the good faith, and they have to be . . . Prabhupāda: So, what is the use of keeping Pakistan? Let it, let, let, let them have another. Sumati Morarjee: I know, I know. But what about this Bangladesh also? You'll have to . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Sumati Morarjee: . . . do something. Because I met so many people from Bangladesh, they were completely forgotten our culture. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: That's . . . we're going there next month, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. I think you remember him. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, very well. Śyāmasundara: He's got his visa now. He's taking a party there, to Bangladesh. Sumati Morarjee: Very good, but I hope they put . . . don't put you somewhere. That's not a very . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, reliable, I say. You have your office in Dacca? Sumati Morarjee: Huh? Prabhupāda: Dacca? No? *Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, our office used to be. We had property. We have lost about twenty*-six lakhs of rupees with both sides of Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Oh, you had to close your office? Sumati Morarjee: We had our own . . . (indistinct) . . . our own house in Chittagong, then our offices, then . . . (indistinct) . . . and our manager he was interned, and we turn a lot of them . . . in Karachi also. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: We had big properties in Karachi. Prabhupāda: So, so they cannot return? Sumati Morarjee: They're not returning anything. With great difficulty. I put up a fight with the British to get back my ship with that interned one passenger. Prabhupāda: Yes, that ship I saw when I was going. Sumati Morarjee: Yes. Prabhupāda: We met on the way. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: And that ship was returned. Sumati Morarjee: That was returned. So that I put pressure on the British here. That's how we got back the ships. Otherwise we would have lost those two ships. Prabhupāda: They're very uncultured. Sumati Morarjee: Very, very uncultured. And he came to see the Prime Minister, he brought all his sons, all his daughters, whole family he brought, to our . . . (indistinct) . . . because Bhutto, he is from Junagadh. I know him. Prabhupāda: Ah, he is a Gujarati? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, he is Gujarati Muhammadan. He is from Junagadh. His father . . . Prabhupāda: Jinnah was also. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, yes, Jinnah was from Karachi, Bombay, but this Bhutto 'till he went away, he was in Junagadh. His father, son was Bhutto, was the Mayor of Junagadh. Prabhupāda: Just see. Sumati Morarjee: He was brought up in Junagadh. He was in Bombay all these . . . he's educated in Bombay. Śyāmasundara: Juna, Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: No, no. Junagadh. Prabhupāda: No, no, Junagadh is a city. Sumati Morarjee: You know, in Saurashtra. Prabhupāda: Saurashtra. Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: There, he was born, bred, educated. He is from Bombay and Junagadh, Saurashtra. Like Jinnah. Jinnah, last time before Pakistan, came to my house, we were old friends, so he came to my house, so I . . . Prabhupāda: Jinnah was older than you? Sumati Morarjee: Oh? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, he was of Gandhi's age. Sumati Morarjee: I know. And he was a Communist member before. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Home Rule and all that. He was the man. So I knew him some many years. So he came to see me, and I talked to him. At that time, you know, his position had become very bad. So he said that . . . I started talking to him in English, he said: "Why do you talk to me in English? You talk to me in Kachchhi. We have common language." I said: "I thought you forgotten." He said: "How can I forget my mother tongue?" (Prabhupāda laughs). And after that, you know, he . . . this movement of Pakistan, and India became very strong and he went away. Prabhupāda: He was . . . he was paid for that running on the League of . . . Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know. Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League. Sumati Morarjee: I know. Prabhupāda: This all Englishmen subscribes. Sumati Morarjee: Because you know is the policy, "Divide and rule." Prabhupāda: Yes, that was it. Jinnah was made. Sumati Morarjee: Otherwise, nobody will do anything. So, I won't take your time Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down. Sumati Morarjee: Because you are tired, old. I'm going to preserve this mālā. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: I put it, give it to my daughter. She is very fond of roses. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, yes, she's crazy . . . Prabhupāda: How old she is now? Sumati Morarjee: She's ten. Today I'll . . . starting today in the afternoon, I remembered so much that I wish Swāmījī was here, she gave a Manipuri dance recital in our office and became Rādhā. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Sumati Morarjee: You know, aṣṭa nāyaka. Prabhupāda: Acchā. Sumati Morarjee: So the eighth nāyaka she became. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: Rādhā getting angry with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So there are other girls also. Sumati Morarjee: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Other girls? *Sumati Morarjee: No, she was alone, but the offices, we wanted to see. So I said: "All right." We had tape, so she danced on that, and the other one is Mākhan*-chori. Prabhupāda: Acchā . Sumati Morarjee: Two things she did. So I remembered so much. Prabhupāda: Just see how this girl is being trained. So similarly, we are teaching our students, small children . . . we have opened a school at Dallas, to . . . because these boys and girls, they're having children, they're being trained up. We are creating a new generation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: I tell you, we have got a very good Manipuri teacher. Prabhupāda: Ah. Sumati Morarjee: Last year I was in Manipura, I took this girl with me, my little girl, and I stayed there eight days, went to Govinda's temple and all these places. Prabhupāda: I, we cannot pay—we have no money. Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. If these girls come to my school, I will teach them this dance. Prabhupāda: Where is your school? Sumati Morarjee: Oh, just opposite to you, my house. Devotee: Next to the temple, Juhu. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Sumati Morarjee: These small girls, whatever you have got, they can come twice or four or four times, three times a week. This Manipuri girl comes. Prabhupāda: No, we are opening here in America one school for training small children to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, so I told, Swāmījī, this Girirāja to come to our school, and tell them all mythological stories, and tell them . . . make them do some bhajana and all that. I hope he has started. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Sumati Morarjee: Ap (You.) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: What is your name? Sumati Morarjee: His name is Mr. Girish Joshi. He is from Dakore. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: Dakore Ji's temple. Prabhupāda: Now, in future, in Joshi family, Lord Kṛṣṇa will appear as Kalki. Sumati Morarjee: Oh, so here is Joshi. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is named there in the Bhāgavata , Viṣṇu Joshi. The father's name of Kalki is Viṣṇu Joshi, and He will appear in Śambhala. Śambhala. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know that. They have built a temple. Prabhupāda: Hah? Sumati Morarjee: In . . . near Purī, there is a place, I forget the name, and in that they're building a temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Sumati Morarjee: When Kalki avatāra . . . they've built a very big . . . huge, big temple. When Kalki . . . without any image. When Kalki avatāra takes place, Jagannāthajī will come there, from the Purī temple, and They will be worshiped . . . Prabhupāda: But that is after four lakhs of years. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I don't know that. Building a temple. (laughter) I, this time, I asked, I said, "Who's building all these temples?" They said: "It is for Jagannāthajī." I said: "Jagannāthajī has past." They said: "No, when the Kalki avatāra takes place." There is a Śambhala town somewhere near, small village, and . . . *Prabhupāda: So you'll not remain here upto Ratha*-yātrā. *Sumati Morarjee: No, I have my Ṭhākurjī's Ratha*-yātrā. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Sumati Morarjee: At home. Prabhupāda: I see. Sumati Morarjee: So I today only wrote a very big letter what to do, how to do. I'll go there. Prabhupāda: At Juhu? Sumati Morarjee: Yes, my house. Prabhupāda: I see. *Sumati Morarjee: So . . . (indistinct) . . . Ratha*-yātrā. My Ṭhākurjī must be waiting. Prabhupāda: It is taken outside? No. Sumati Morarjee: No, inside. In the house. Prabhupāda: Within the compound. That's right. *Sumati Morarjee: Here I have seen Ratha*-yātrā, the first time in . . . when these people came here. I had no idea. That day I arrived. (laughter) So I said: "What is all this?" There were so many people and all hari-bolo and all that. "What is happerning?" So then I saw Ratha, I said: "This is Ratha-yātrā," near this place. Devotees: Marble Arch? Sumati Morarjee: No, no, no. I was passing Marble Arch, Hyde Park corner. I saw all the people. I said, "What . . ." Then I found out. I thought . . . Prabhupāda: In San Francisco we hold, very gorgeous. Sumati Morarjee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Three rathas. Sumati Morarjee: I have seen those pictures. *Prabhupāda: Three rathas, and thousands of . . . oh, they're very much, I mean to say, enthused to take prasādam and dance. So this year they asked me to come here. Therefore I have come to see the Ratha*-yātrā, how they . . . Sumati Morarjee: But, ah, you will be here in October? Prabhupāda: Ah, maybe. Sumati Morarjee: Ah, if you are here, you, you must write to me about Swāmījī's program. Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes. Sumati Morarjee: So if you are here, I'll be here by 6th, 7th of October, because 10th is my meeting. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Sumati Morarjee: In London. So I will take your leave, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Jaya . Sumatijī ki jaya . All glories to Sumatijī. (laughter) Sumati Morarjee: All glories to Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sumati Morarjee: Ap utha lijiye. (You pick up.) So you write to me about this Hong Kong. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: And for you becoming the president of the Trustee, I shall write to Girirāja. Sumati Morarjee: Yes, you write to Girirāja, and we will discuss ourselves. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Sumati Morarjee: So much. Prabhupāda: Yes, take it. She can take whole . . . Sumati Morarjee: I'll take and then . . . Prabhupāda: She'll return the pot. Sumati Morarjee: And I'll send all the bati (utensils) and everything, including handkerchief. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Jaya! Go with. Go with. Take this. Take this. Help her. No, no, he will help you. (Sumati Morarjee leaves) Revatīnandana: Do you know how old she is, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Maybe over sixty. Revatīnandana: She's very much alive. So much alive. *Prabhupāda: Her father was one the richest men in Bombay, and her husband . . . her father*-in-law also one of the richest men. They're coming from very rich family in Bombay. And she's so intelligent. That Scindia Steam Navigation Company, very big company. It is a semi-government, and she's the managing director. All the big, big officers respecting as mother, carries out her order. And she's great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, but she does not agree with her husband. (laughter) Hmm? The husband and wife, not very agreement. Yes. Revatīnandana: Her husband is alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. They live separate building. They meet, but they live separate building, separate establishment. She looks one department of business, and he looks another department. That child, adopted. She has no own child. Revatīnandana: Oh. Bhagavān: So perhaps she'll ship the punks, and the vehicle. Prabhupāda: And the car also. And I've asked her to become the president of the trustee for construction of Bombay. She has agreed. Revatīnandana: What will the business of the trustees be? Prabhupāda: Hah? Revatīnandana: What will their business be as trustees? Prabhupāda: To raise fund. Revatīnandana: Hmm? *Prabhupāda: Raise fund. That's all. We approach these person for raising fund, that's all. Not for taking any lesson from them. Now, to have a temple here, we shall hold a meeting on the Indian gentlemen to raise the fund. You find out some place, immediately, so that while I am remaining, by performing Bhāgavata*-saptāha , I'm influencing the Indian rich men here; they can purchase. She will also contribute for October. July, August, September, October. So the negotiation will go on for at least three month; in the meantime, she will come. She will also contribute. I have already given her hint and she agrees. So let us find out some nice place. Bhagavān: You won't be here that long, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You're going to be leaving on the 20th, and . . . Prabhupāda: No, I may come back. Bhagavān: You may come back? Prabhupāda: Yes, finish the business. Bhagavān: Would you like myself or Haṁsadūta to stay here and help with this building? Prabhupāda: Yes, all together. Bhagavān: I was thinking of going to Paris, but I'll stay for a while and help here. Prabhupāda: Paris is not far off. You can go and come. Bhagavān: Go and come. It's too crowded here. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Bhagavān: Yeah! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Instead of becoming empty, it is better crowded. Our building, in the morning it was . . . there was no place to bow down. It was just matchbox packed up. Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That is because all the devotees are here from all the temples. But still . . . Prabhupāda: Could not sit even. That is good. And it is always like that? Devotee: No. Revatīnandana: Well, like I say, all the devotees are here from all the temples in England, so Edinburgh and Manchester, they're all here too. But always it is crowded, and, uh, on Sundays it's no good at all, because so many people come, they can't even come in to see the Deities, you know. They can't fit all in the temple. And, uh, and we don't advertise the Sunday feast. If we advertise the Sunday feast, we couldn't get them in the whole building. So we can't even advertise. So therefore they don't even mention it, people still come, and we can't fit them all in the building. And we're hoping that it would get so full that Kṛṣṇa will see and He'll give us a place quickly. Prabhupāda: Give her some position. And she's very influential, rich. But everyone wants some post. That is natural. Therefore I told . . . offered her the presidency of Bombay Trust, to raise the fund. In Bombay we have got very nice place. The best place of anywhere. And it is so nice in summertime, you'll find in paradise. So many coconut trees. You have seen? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: And we are . . . Nara*-nārāyaṇa has been engaged to make it a nice garden. All vacant land, we are getting nice garden, and the owner of the land, he has given me the best facility. First of all, the land is worth minimum thirty hundred thousands rupees. Revatīnandana: Thirty lakhs? Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs. But he has given me for fourteen lakhs. And that's also by installment, in three years, er, four years, without any interest . . . Devotee: Who is that man? Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair. Mrs. Nair. She is . . . she is also very nice devotee. So every year four lakhs of rupees, in three years, er, four years, fourteen lakhs , without any interest. So we have got good facility. And in Vṛndāvana, some gentleman has given us the land. Revatīnandana: Is the land in Vṛndāvana, is it in the city? Is it on the outside of Vṛndāvana, or is it right in the city? Prabhupāda: No, it is just in front of Bon Mahārāja's college. Śyāmasundara: It's in Rāman Reti. Prabhupāda: (laughter) The best place in Vṛndāvana. All aristocratic quality. And we have got potency. There are so many buildings, they are not being properly utilized. If we want to, you can purchase the whole area. Revatīnandana: How is the Gauḍīya . . . *Prabhupāda: Now you have got enough place in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa, in Bombay. There will be no difficulty if you go by thousands to India. You can live very comfortable. So you can go, batches by go—you can go and come back. So that foreigners, they visit, and gradually there will be unity between the so*-called Hindu, Muslim—all Kṛṣṇa's servant. This is the idea behind Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't believe in this skin disease. (cut) (end) Conversation -- July 17, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . ruler was a Hindu, the population were the Muhammadans. In Hyderabad the ruler was a Muhammadan and the population was Hindu. Now these Pakistanis, they say, "Now that is Muhammadan ruler. We shall occupy that." And Kashmir, Hindu ruler, the Hindustanis they said, "We shall occupy that." Just see how they created fighting. (laughs) Just see. So the Kashmir ruler, the Dr. Karan Singh's father, he, according to the British direction . . . British direction was that he can join any party: it is actually, but we don't interfere. He immediately surrendered to the Hindustanis, and the Pakistanis attacked Kashmir: "It is a Muhammadan country. We shall take it." So the ruler, he surrendered. So it was perfectly in order, because the British have gave . . . (indistinct) . . . selection. So when there was fight was going on, the Mountbatten, (laughs) Lord Mountbatten—he is still living—somehow or other he induced Jawaharlal to put the matter in the United Nations. So still it is not settled up, you see, but his duty was, "So why shall I go to the United Nations? The arrangement was that the ruler can select. He has selected already. Why should I go to them?" In so many way the things are implicated. I am talking on the platform of politician. So all these, I mean to say, Indian politicians, they were defeated by British politicians. (laughter) That's a fact. And actually British politicians, they are very trained up. Guest: Prabhupāda, please excuse me. Prabhupāda: Alright. Guest: I . . . I’ll see you tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. Prabhupāda: So don't manufacture duty. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Duty is already there. Take it up and be happy. Guest: Okay. Prabhupāda: That's all. (laughs) Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: We are doing that. How we say: "Here is duty"? We may be very . . . not very much learned, but we take the simple thing, that's all. Our duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirmed it, my Guru Mahārāja confirmed it . . . (indistinct) . . . why should we be unnecessarily very learned man? Eh? There is a Bengali proverb, uthi chala kel balai derhi : "If one is too much intelligent, he should be hanged." (laughter) (laughs) Over*-intelligent. Kṛṣṇa may give me the good intelligence that whatever I have been able to do or what I am going to, let me be fixed up in my faith in Kṛṣṇa, that's all. I don't want anything. Why shall I create my duty? Duty is already there. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that in the world there is no problem, no scarcity. The only problem is that the people are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the problem. *But actually that is the fact. So our policy is that let people become Kṛṣṇa conscious—all problems solved. That is our culture. Caitanya caritāmṛta says, ye jana kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is first*-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sei baḍa catura ( CC Antya 4.67). Where is this word in the Caitanya caritāmṛta ? Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is very intelligent. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . the Caitanya caritāmṛta . Prabhupāda: Eh? It may not be. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaje sei baḍa catura. So we are taking this slogan. We are requesting that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious—you shall be the most intelligent person. Where is my difficulty? Śyāmasundara: Where is what? Prabhupāda: Where is my difficulty? Śyāmasundara: Difficulty. Prabhupāda: I have no difficulty. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have no difficulty. I have got so many direction from my predecessors. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, you defeated every Western philosophers, without any trouble at all. Prabhupāda: So actually if you follow, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), authorized persons, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. The difficulty is that we are misled by unauthorized persons. That is the difficulty. Guest (2): Your Grace, when I leave here tonight, may I consider myself a disciple of yours? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are good boy. I shall accept you. Take this prasādam . Guest (2): Jaya . Thank you. Śyāmasundara: So before going, you can have a ceremony? Prabhupāda: Mmm, he is a nice boy. Śyāmasundara: You will be going either Wednesday or Thursday—I am not sure yet. I am waiting for the tickets from Paris. We will come back. Prabhupāda: We will come back after a week or so. You also consider. I have explained my philosophy . . . (indistinct) . . . you are intelligent boy. Guest (2): I shall be at the Commonwealth Centre tomorrow night, of course. And may I leave . . . will you contact me? Śyāmasundara: Sure. Dhanañjaya is the president of the temple, local president, so he will be constantly in touch with you. Prabhupāda: Our method is simple, our philosophy is simple. But if somebody brings intricate philosophy, we could answer. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda has just finished a book . . . Prabhupāda: (laughs) We are not so simple that others will befool us. We are not so simple. Śyāmasundara: From Socrates up to Heidegger, Heisenberg, up to the latest philosophers, he has defeated them systematically, one by one. Ten months he worked on it. Incredible. (laughs) Every argument, possible argument. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No. We failed big, big doctors, scientists. There was one Dr. Staal. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he was a Sanskrit scholar or something. Prabhupāda: Sanskrit scholar. Dhanañjaya: Members of the Mensa Society? Śyāmasundara: Because they have no authority, no previous authority . . . Prabhupāda: No standard authority. Śyāmasundara: Mental speculators. Prabhupāda: Another philosopher is coming on the nineteenth. Śyāmasundara: Yes, that would be very interesting . . . (laughs) I forget his name. He is the leader of the spiritualist church in England. I don’t know his name . . . (indistinct) Guest (2): What is he coming here for? To . . . Śyāmasundara: Just to engage in a kind of a debate actually, just an exchange of views, dialogue. (laughs) Last session we had was with a geneticist in San . . . Los Angeles. In the world of genetics he is trying to find out how to create life out of chemicals. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Let us capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, that's all. (laughs) He will give us protection. That's right. Kṛṣṇa knows how to kill demons. Eh? Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Eh? The horse demon, He controlled him by pushing His hand on the mouth, you see. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) A horse can be controlled by his mouth very easily. *Prabhupāda: Only mouth, that's all. Very easily. He simply pushed His hand, and when He pushed His hand, by His power he, the horse, began to feel the hand as hot iron. You see? Kṛṣṇa is all*-powerful. He can do that. Eh? Otherwise there is no meaning of His being all-powerful. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God, not . . . Even by His activities He is not ordinary. He had to meet so many dangers before He was accepted God. From childhood, when He was baby, just three months old, He had to struggle. He had to struggle with His position as God. And those who are claiming, "I am God," let these rascals establish his position that he is God. Then we accept that. You find out that picture of Kṛṣṇa, how He is controlling the horse, eh? Keśī. Śyāmasundara: It's here at the back. It's right at the back. (indistinct conversation) Prabhupāda: It is in the first part. Dhanañjaya: Kṛṣṇa is so merciful that He puts Himself into so many difficult situations. Prabhupāda: And His friends are saying: "How Kṛṣṇa is doing?" (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Small friends. And they will come home and they will say to the . . . "Oh, mother, Kṛṣṇa did like this." "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa is so wonderful. Oh!" That is all. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: "May be some demigod, Kṛṣṇa." They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. They loved simply Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Neither they care whether Kṛṣṇa is God or demigod or . . . "He is our beloved," that's all. So simply if we develop our love for Kṛṣṇa, then everything will come to . . . (indistinct) . . . simply we have to learn how to love Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of devotion. Otherwise it is not possible to understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa does not know Himself what He is. Guest (2): And we learn to love Kṛṣṇa by . . . Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Guest (2): . . . chanting the mantra . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): . . . the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): . . . and following the regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Simple thing. And there is dormant love for Kṛṣṇa. Simply we have to clear, that's all. Nitya*-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti . Kṛṣṇa's love is there, eternally. Otherwise how these European and American boys loving Kṛṣṇa? Śyāmasundara: Would you like to take rest now? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Guest (2): Thank you. (obeisances) (break) (end) Conversation -- July 25, 1972, Paris *Prabhupāda: . . . by the size of the ocean they will be finished. But in the spiritual world the ānanda , the ocean of bliss, it increases. Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanaṁ ( CC Antya 20.12). Vardhanaṁ means it increases. So . . . (indistinct) . . . in the blissful . . . (indistinct) . . . the more . . . (indistinct) . . . you will never be feeling tired. That is the difference between material pleasure and . . . (indistinct) . . . so I am very glad, when I installed this Deity, that place was not to my satisfaction, and it remained not very good . . . (indistinct) . . . I was little . . . (indistinct) . . . that these boys and girls . . . (indistinct) . . . serve you, you kindly dictate . . . (indistinct) . . . so Kṛṣṇa will help you, buddhi-yogaṁ. The Australia is one of their colony, but there is no satisfaction. We have seen—we have got our temple in London—not that people are very happy. Even in London we have seen that Bedford Park, I was going every day for morning walk, but there also men were sleeping on the bench, without sufficient cover. So I used to show my students, "Why this man belong to British nation, who has got the British Empire background, why he is unhappy?" (aside) What is that sound, can it be stopped? Yes. Devotee: This is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So we should deeply study this fact, that people are struggling very hard, expanding themselves for achieving riches and wealth, but they're not satisfied. That's a fact. Even British Empire could not satisfy them—more extension, more extension, more extension. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire. But this desire for sense gratification is so strong that if you go on pouring butter on fire it will never be satisfied; *it will blaze more and more. (break) If one takes the lotus feet of Gaurāṅga as the ut . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . he immediately understands the essence of devotional service. We therefore first of all offer our prayers to śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda . Therefore Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura sings: *Anyone who has accepted the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya as everything—all the riches and all wealth—immediately he enters in the kingdom of devotional service. He tastes without taste. Now so many of our European and American boys and girls, they are sticking to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Unless they are tasting something blissful, how they can stick to these principles? Our . . . (break) . . . person like Lord Zetland . . . (break) . . . no gambling, no meat*-eating and no intoxication. He . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) ( kīrtana ) (break) (end) Conversation -- August 1, 1972, London Prabhupāda: ". . . American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that." Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Did you have some places to see, Dhanañjaya, for Prabhupāda to see in the next day or two? Dhanañjaya: There's this one big church building we have seen . . . Prabhupāda: You have got? Tell me. Dhanañjaya: . . . in Hammersmith, and I thought he could see next week, Monday or Tuesday. Prabhupāda: Where is Himavatī? Haṁsadūta: She's . . . Prabhupāda: Heh? Haṁsadūta: I think she's upstairs in the . . . Prabhupāda: Call her. Prabhupāda: Ah bring. Come on. Śyāmasundara: There is one very large church . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: . . . to see on Monday. Prabhupāda: In Monday. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Not before. Prabhupāda: Why not before? Dhanañjaya: Well, we can arrange for this week also for sure. Śyāmasundara: Try to do as soon as possible. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Dhanañjaya: It's in Hammersmith. Hammersmith. Prabhupāda: Hm. How far? Dhanañjaya: From here its about five miles, four or five miles. Śyāmasundara: It's, ah, towards the airport. Prabhupāda: Towards the airport. So not bad. Śyāmasundara: Not bad. No, it's still downtown. Dhanañjaya: It's on the motorway. It's very near to the motorway, that motorway coming from the airport into central London. Prabhupāda: So why not see earlier? Have you got any description? Dhanañjaya: Well, we can't see it earlier because it belongs to the Methodist Church, and their committee members are meeting in another city, in Manchester, for a week. They have their . . . a big congress meeting there. So they don't come back until the end of this week. Śyāmasundara: So we can't see it while they're meeting? Dhanañjaya: Well we could see it from the outside. The caretaker should be there. Actually, we went there one day, Mr. Aran and Niṣkala and myself. Prabhupāda: Well, what is the description? Dhanañjaya: It's very nice. It's something like, ah, something like the size of this temple, but bigger. Śyāmasundara: Bigger than Los Angeles? Dhanañjaya: And also it has a steeple. Prabhupāda: Bigger, bigger. What is the price? Dhanañjaya: Oh, more than £250,000, £250,000. Śyāmasundara: Quarter of a million pounds. Two lakhs of pounds. Devotee: So that's six million dollars? Dhanañjaya: No, one million. One million dollars. Prabhupāda: You have got? Śyāmasundara: No, it's not a million dollars. It's only 600,000. Devotee: Six hundred thousand dollars. Dhanañjaya: Well they said between 250,000 and 350,000 pounds. Śyāmasundara: Oh, the money, the money won't be as important as the place. If we get the place, we can get the money, I think. Dhanañjaya: But still there is a congregation. It's not available immediately. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dhanañjaya: There's a congregation there still. Revatīnandana: You have no idea when it would be available? Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow I will go out, some of the others will go out, we'll find some places to look at for you. I have some friends, we'll all go see them. Prabhupāda: So what do you think of this Dr. Sar? As he speaks, it is all right, do you think? Śyāmasundara: Is he trustworthy? Prabhupāda: He speaks more than what he is? Dhanañjaya: Yes, he speaks more than what he is. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: Yes. I, I, I never liked him very much. I, I don't know what his motive is, you know. I don't think his motive is strictly devotional, you know? Dhanañjaya: He approached me, and he said . . . I was talking about Life Members to him, saying: "Why shouldn't it be one hundred pounds? This is a good price for Life Members." And he said: "Well, £51, this is the value of one thousand one hundred and eight rupees." He said: "I am prepared to give £51." Then he said: "Actually, I have given already more than £51. I have given Kṛṣṇa's jewelry, so why you don't make me Life Member?" And I said, "But you have been asked." And he said: "But I have given at least . . ." Śyāmasundara: Why not make him Life Member. He's given all the jewelry. Prabhupāda: But Is he a very influential man? Dhanañjaya: What's the definition of influential man? Prabhupāda: Oh he's not very . . . he talks? Dhanañjaya: He talks a bit about his community, but he's not produced anything from his community. Nothing. He's produced some money for the jewelry which is very nice. Śyāmasundara: His personal money. Personal money? Dhanañjaya: Not just personal money, no. Śyāmasundara: He's raised it. Prabhupāda: Do you think he can help us raising fund? Dhanañjaya: He can help, but I don't think he can raise thousands and thousands and thousands. See, personally he has no money. He told me he has no money. He's simply at his job, he gets so much money. Prabhupāda: And he's working somewhere? Dhanañjaya: Yes, he's working. He's in Oxford Street, very near. Prabhupāda: And he says that he's M.A., Ph.D.? Is he? So? He says so. Dhanañjaya: Yes, he's a graduate. Śyāmasundara: He's a doctor, a Ph.D.? Dhanañjaya: But still not so influential it seems. Prabhupāda: Neither reliable. Is he reliable? Dhanañjaya: Well, he's said so many times, "I can help, I can help." But still he's not produced anything positive. Prabhupāda: This carpet was donated by him? Dhanañjaya: Yes, this rug. Śyāmasundara: This? This has been here for years. In the beginning he did, I guess. Mukunda would know him. *Prabhupāda: So you can ask Nanda*-kumāra to give me milk in that way. Śyāmasundara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Or you can ask Himavatī. What is your formula? Revatīnandana: Ginger powder and a little bit of saffron and sugar. Heat it up for a while, and then afterwards mix thoroughly and serve like that. It's good for digestion. *Prabhupāda: You give Nanda*-kumāra, because he will give. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Kiran, tomar khobor ki? Cholche . . . kon mondire thako tumi? (Kiran, how are you? Everything's fine . . . which temple do you stay in?) Man: Ami Birmingham e chilam. Ta Birmingham mondir ta bondho kore dewa hoyeche. Tai ekhane . . . (indistinct) . . . sankirtan party niye jacche . . . (indistinct) . . . Birmingham ar Cardiff . . . (indistinct) . . . mondir . . . (I was in Birmingham. The temple in Birmingham has been closed down. So here . . . (indistinct) . . . going with the sankīrtan party . . . (indistinct) . . . to Birmingham and Cardiff . . . (indistinct) . . . temples . . .) Prabhupāda: Ekhon ekhanei acho? (Are you staying here right now?) Man: Ha. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Śyāmasundara: She was very happy, Sumati Morarji. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: She went away very happy. Prabhupāda: Everyone will be happy when you are Kṛṣṇa devotee. You see? She's seeing Kṛṣṇa's so many devotees. That is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. Devotee (2): She said she wanted to see the Deities before leaving. Prabhupāda: And she saw? Revatīnandana: Two months ago she came here for most of the āratik āratrika ceremony. The devotees came out to say goodbye to her, and she said, "Go back and do āratrika ." Prabhupāda: She can influence the whole Bombay, she's so . . . Śyāmasundara: Oh, she knows everyone. Dhanañjaya: We need a president like her for the board of trustees for London also. Has she had any assistance? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She is doing her best. She is nice. Śyāmasundara: When is Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . going to come? Dhanañjaya: He's going to drive Prabhupāda to Kensington tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: Tomorrow? Dhanañjaya: Or Friday. Śyāmasundara: He can't come before? He should come . . . Revatīnandana: He comes almost every night, actually. Śyāmasundara: Next time he comes, have him come . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And the Joshi is the manager here? Śyāmasundara: That's her manager here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, then he's the one who should know everything. She said she would carry everything for us practically around the world . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . on her boats. We have many mṛdaṅgas , everything in India sent. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Calcutta. From Calcutta, their ship starts for all over the world. So simply . . . but Calcutta manager is rascal. Calcutta manager, that is difficult. Śyāmasundara: Why not we send . . . why don't we send a hundred or two hundred mṛdaṅgas to America and Europe, big shipments, sometime? We could really use them down through the years. Prabhupāda: But I know that Calcutta manager, he is a . . . haramzyada . . . (rascal . . .) (laughs) Revatīnandana: They won't become . . . they have many . . . all the big men in the Calcutta House, they won't become Life Members. None of them. I approached them. None of them will become Life Members. Prabhupāda: Calcutta House? Revatīnandana: That Calcutta Scindia office. There's several big men. The one I remember is Mr. Trivedi. I don't know if he's the head man. Prabhupāda: Trivedi. Revatīnandana: Yeah. I talked to him, but he will not become a Life Member. He wouldn't even give that much rupees. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They are not very highly paid. Within thousand. In Japan also. High salary is in your country. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Unexpected fabulous. (chuckles) Just like that boy who came to see me yesterday. He's Engineer. Śyāmasundara: Gopal. Prabhupāda: He's getting $900. That means our ten thousand rupees. Gopal is also not getting. I asked Gopal to continue his service and give $400 per month. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Each month. That's good. Very good. Prabhupāda: So here we shall give you books, cost price only, and you sell books by profit only and spend for building. Dhanañjaya: Traveling Saṅkīrtana Party is very strong here. There's some very nice boys here . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: They go out and they simply distribute, and just like I think in San Francisco, Keśava's . . . he began it here. They just go out with literature and simply to distribute literature, you know, in that way. Prabhupāda: So Keśava is feeling not well there, he can come here. Śyāmasundara: He wanted to. He wanted to bring his party here. Prabhupāda: Do that. Let him do that. Write him. Revatīnandana: But actually he may improve it even more. They are already a good group. They are doing all right. Prabhupāda: Very expert. Not only good, very expert. Dhanañjaya: They're averaging sixty, seventy pounds a day. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: Sixty, seventy pounds a day they're collecting. Prabhupāda: You are not collecting so much? Dhanañjaya: What's that? Prabhupāda: You are not collecting so much? Dhanañjaya: Here in the temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Well, we are collecting, on Oxford Street, we're collecting about forty, fifty pounds a day, and on traveling saṅkīrtana , sixty, seventy pounds, because they're doing it for more hours. So altogether we're over a hundred pounds a day. Prabhupāda: Now your GBC here. He has come. Now he make it hundred pounds daily. How to do it, he knows. Dhanañjaya: But, but already there is one hundred pounds daily coming. Two hundred pounds, then. Prabhupāda: And his best friend is George. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: I'm going to see him tomorrow. Is he in town? Prabhupāda: He can alone make . . . purchase a good temple. George alone can purchase. Śyāmasundara: He says George is in New York. Devotee: . . . (indistinct conversation) Śyāmasundara: When is he back? Devotee: About a week . . . (indistinct) Dhanañjaya: Oh, he may be with Mr. Ravi Patel. I think we saw him at the airport. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: He's a printer, and he came in the van with you from the airport. He's a very nice man. He's doing a lot of printing for us. He says he has so many thousands of rupees in Bombay and in Madras from his printing. And he also wants to offer his services. I think he will come tomorrow to see you. Prabhupāda: Let him print our books, in Bombay. Dhanañjaya: He said he wanted to offer his services here for this temple somehow or other by getting money from advertising purposes. He's the director of some company that's just been started. It's called Golden Products. They make all kinds of consumer goods, shampoos and soap powders, so many things like that, for household use. And he wanted to use his symbol, Golden Products, with this Society. This is his idea. Prabhupāda: Golden powder? Dhanañjaya: Golden Products. Prabhupāda: In our Society? No. Dhanañjaya: I told him. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Devotee: Who is he? Dhanañjaya: He went to the airport today. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a boy. Dhanañjaya: His other idea was . . . he said he was working for Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba. He said in India he had raised so many thousands of lakhs of rupees by making posters. They are impersonal posters, so much nonsense on them, but they sold like lottery tickets. In this way he printed them and made so much money. Prabhupāda: I mean, he cannot suggest. We cannot accept anyone's suggestion. Dhanañjaya: Yeah. Devotee: That's proven to be too . . . too horrible. Devotee (2): Yes, to always. Śyāmasundara: I saw Mr. . . . who was that? What's that man's name who made our first record in New York? Devotee: Kallman. Śyāmasundara: Ah, I saw Mr. Kallman at the airport when you arrived in New York at that meeting, press meeting. Prabhupāda: Oh, he was there? Śyāmasundara: He was there. Prabhupāda: Oh, why did he not see me? Śyāmasundara: He didn't come. He was a little embarrassed, I think. Prabhupāda: He must be embarrassed. He's a thief. (laughter) Dishonest man never becomes happy. He did not pay me anything as royalty for the record. Devotee: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: He's still selling it, too. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He's still selling that record. Still making money Prabhupāda: Yes. Must be selling, and taking advantage of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Haṁsadūta: That's a nice record. Devotee (3): Is that Govinda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: That's a very nice record. Everyone is appreciating. Prabhupāda: But I heard that rascal always play my record and hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: At least he's benefiting somehow. I saw him in Bombay also, one day in the market of Madhubhag, Madhubhag temple? He was buying beads for his store in New York. Prabhupāda: He's selling beads, record, on our account. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: He was being cheated himself, in Bombay. He was being cheated like anything. He was paying one rupee for one strand of beads, those poor quality beads. (pause) Do you have a car? Prabhupāda: Now you can arrange for the car? Devotee: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi is going to be working on it, too, to raise funds. *Prabhupāda: So, at least two first*-class car must go to India. Śyāmasundara: Cadillac? Prabhupāda: Any. They must recognize, "Here the American guru is going." (laughter) Devotee: Have to get Cadillac. Prabhupāda: (laughter) If the American guru has no car, he's walking on the street, that is disgrace for you. Is it not? (laughs) And they criticize, "Oh, what kind of guru you are, you are walking on the street? You are American guru ?" Śyāmasundara: I was thinking if each devotee in the United States went out . . . Prabhupāda: You write on the car, "The Spiritual Master of USA." (laughter) And people will see, "Oh, here is the spiritual . . ." (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Should we do that? "Spiritual Master of USA"? Prabhupāda: Yes. What is . . .? Why not? (laughter) Śyāmasundara: It's a fact. If each of your devotees collected five dollars one day, that's $5,000. More. More than $5,000. Prabhupāda: That you . . . and soon as you issue letter, that will come. It is not very difficult. And she will carry. Make arrangement with the government so next time when I go to India, I sit on the car. That's all. Devotee: And Gurudasa . . . actually, we'd better do it soon, because it takes two or three months. Prabhupāda: Yes, so you can do. Devotee: We can talk about the details later. Prabhupāda: That I am immigrant here, I've stayed since 1965. The embassy, everyone, knows. So I can take my cars, that there is a law. So in this way take permission from the government, and you get the car, and I go and drive it. That's all. Devotee: You'll take this car with you, Prabhupāda, wherever you go? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: You will take this car with you wherever you go? Prabhupāda: As far as possible. People will see, "The spiritual master of USA is going there." Śyāmasundara: Supposing you want to go to Bombay. You can fly to Bombay and someone can drive the car there. And then when you're in Bombay, you can drive it in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, you can go from Calcutta to Agra, nice road. And from Agra to Bombay. Śyāmasundara: How many days? Two days? Prabhupāda: No, no. One day, two days. Yes. Even if it runs fifty mile per hour, so from morning, early morning to noon, say six hours if we run, it's three hundred miles in the morning and three hundred miles in the evening, and stay at night. And then the next day three hundred miles, three hundred . . . six hundred miles. Twelve hundred miles means anywhere you go from Calcutta to Bombay, Calcutta to Madras, Calcutta to Delhi, within twelve hundred miles. Within two days from anywhere to anywhere you can go. India's length and breadth is not so wide as in your country. You have got . . . that is also not good road, in your . . . but in Calcutta, to Calcutta–Bombay, Madras, Delhi, there are good roads. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Good roads. So we can go by road. Devotee: So begin campaigning right away, collecting funds for the vehicle. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (to Śyāmasundara) And you are a good driver. (laughter) Eighty miles. You once went eighty miles, his father's car. His father gave a very nice car for my riding. His father, mother, sister met me in Portland. Very nice gentleman, mother nice, sister very beautiful. Śyāmasundara: But silent. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: I have written to her some letters, but silence. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They are not very happy that you are in this movement; not in the family, naturally. They think, "Our lost child." (laughter) They cannot appreciate that, "My child is lost for better purpose." That is the case. Revatīnandana: Actually, I wanted to ask you about something like that. When I took sannyāsa in Calcutta, some time afterward, I used to correspond with my parents. So I sent them a letter explaining what was sannyāsa , I had taken sannyāsa , and that I didn't want to hear so much more about nieces, nephews, things like that that I have in that family. I said: "If you want to talk, now we should talk about Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So I didn't hear anything from them for about six months. But just the other day I received a letter . . . Prabhupāda: Then don't. Now you have taken sannyāsa , you don't. Revatīnandana: I shouldn't do it at all. Prabhupāda: No. Revatīnandana: But she's quite intelligent. She's asking . . . Prabhupāda: Your mother? Revatīnandana: Yeah . . . all about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. She has the *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Your mother, your mother must be intelligent because you are intelligent. Your mother must be intelligent. Without mother being intelligent, no intelligent son comes out. A son inherits the quality of mother, and the daughter inherits the quality of father. This is natural. Revatīnandana: So the letter is so . . . she's told me, she says: "Two reasons I want to hear from you: one, I want to know how you are," that's the body. She says also, "I'm interested in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement," because she's noticed that the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: That is mother's anxiety. You see all this? Revatīnandana: So I should not respond? Prabhupāda: Hmm, you can send news: "Mother, I'm all right." That's all. Revatīnandana: That's all right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't worry. No. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was sending news to His mother. Revatīnandana: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Although He never went to mother. Revatīnandana: It's hard for the family, because my mother's brother is Viṣṇujana Mahārāja's father, right? So they also figure they have lost one son. They don't hear from him at all, and now she doesn't hear from me at all. So the whole family is very miserable. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hmm. But they have lost for the better. Revatīnandana: Yes, but they don't understand that. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Lost not in vain. They will be benefited. They will be benefited. You are giving the best service to the family. What about your mother, Himavatī? Himavatī: I never hear from her anymore. Prabhupāda: Huh? Himavatī: I never hear from her anymore. Prabhupāda: She's also not very happy? Himavatī: No. I don't think she's very happy with me. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Anyway, you serve Kṛṣṇa and then your mother will be best served. Kṛṣṇa will favor all the family members of a devotee. You have seen from Prahlāda Maharaja's statement. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that anyone coming to become His devotee, He takes care of the family of the devotee—spiritually, for their emancipation. *That is natural. Just like government. If somebody dies in the war field, the government takes care of the whole family. Similarly, if the government has so much sense, do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is nonsense? He also takes care of the family of the devotee. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham ( BG 9.22). Where is Nanda-kumāra, Pradyumna? *Śyāmasundara: Pradyumna's been studying all day. Ah . . . Nanda*-kumāra may be . . . is he there in the room? Prabhupāda: No, I don't want. Maybe sleeping? Devotee: He is tired. Prabhupāda: Not very tired. What was it? Devotee: Pradyumna didn't take rest last night, I don't think. *Prabhupāda: Pradyumna . . . Nanda*-kumāra was sleeping. Śyāmasundara: Charlie Chaplin kept us up all night. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: Charlie Chaplin kept us up all night. (laughs) Charlie Chaplin film. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That was nice. (laughter) He is really funny man. (laughs) He has got originality. All his comic play has got some originality. That is the beauty. How he invented! (laughs) I think that character, when he was a drunkard, he's a great friend. (laughs) When he's not drunkard, "Who is this man?" (laughs) He's grave, as rich man. *And as drunkard, "You'll pay him. You are my friend, life*-long friend. Whatever you want, you take." (laughs) So these characters he's painting, it's very good intelligence. And he made him friend when he was going to commit suicide. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, he stopped him. Prabhupāda: He stopped him. Accidentally he stopped. (laughs) Not willingly. Śyāmasundara: Yes. He tried to pull him up from the water, and he went in himself. (laughing) Prabhupāda: It is very nice, funny man, with intelligence. And before him there was another, Mr. Max Linder. Śyāmasundara: Max Linder. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was also very funny Englishman. In our childhood we used to enjoy their play, Max Linder and Chaplin, ah, Charlie Chaplin. Haṁsadūta: They were showing them in India? Prabhupāda: Uh? Yes. Max Linder, I remember, he was sitting in a park. (laughter) You know? Revatīnandana: No. I don't know anything about it. Prabhupāda: He was sitting in a park, so that English dress, that tail coat? What is called? Śyāmasundara: Coattails, yeah. Prabhupāda: So the tail was hanging, so some naughty boy, they fixed up nails, you see? So when he got up, the whole tail gone, you see? But he could not understand. He went to the ball dance. So he was dancing, so everyone's seeing to his tail, in this way. So he thought, "What is the matter?" He went to the mirror and he saw, "Oh, my tail is lost." (laughs) *Then he came again in the ball dance and he was pushing everyone, just to show. And everyone asking, "What is this? What is this?" "Oh, you do not know? This is latest fashion. This is latest fashion." Then all of them cut the tails. I think he had taken the idea, laṅguli*-hīna śṛgala (Hitopadeśa). This is Sanskrit story, that laṅguli-hīna śṛgala , or monkey, he lost his tail, and he began to advertise, "This is the latest fashion." *So that ball*-dancing without tail, that was, I remember, it is very laughing. They say that Charlie Chaplin is the student of Max Linder. He learned this funny play from Max Linder. So I knew Charlie Chaplin is a Englishman. Haṁsadūta: Yes, he is. Prabhupāda: He is Englishman. Haṁsadūta: He went to America and then he made all these films. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He went to America and he made a lot of money there. Indian man: As far as I know, Prabhupāda, he was Jew, but he used to live in east of London, or south of London. There is an autobiography about it. Prabhupāda: Max Linder, ah, Charlie Chaplin? Yes. He was a London man. Śyāmasundara: But that movie was filmed in Los Angeles, the one we saw last night. In Hollywood. All the palm trees and the mountains behind. Indian man: One of his elder sons, he's still living in Hampstead Heath. He has got the house in Hampstead Heath. Prabhupāda: Oh, his eldest son. And where he is, Charlie Chaplin? Devotee: In America. Prabhupāda: In America? Devotee: He's lives in Switzerland. Indian man: No, no, he lives in the Europe somewhere. Switzerland, most . . . sometimes coming in Hampstead Heath. Devotee: Geneva. I think Geneva. Prabhupāda: He has got big family? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: You said that he's producing still child? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, he produced last year, or two years ago. Indian man: He married again. Haṁsadūta: It was in Life magazine. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) Haṁsadūta: It's already about 10:30. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotees: Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees leave) Prabhupāda: So ask Pradyumna if he wants to give. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . viṣaya chāḍiyā . Oh, yes, then it is . . . (indistinct) . . . viṣaya chāḍiyā , se rase majiyā mukhe bolo hari hari , parama karuṇa , pahū dui jana (Gaura*-Nityānander Dayā 2). But even if we do speculation business and do it for Kṛṣṇa, that is not good. Śyāmasundara: Not so high a class. Prabhupāda: We are doing little business because gṛhasthas , they require money. All right, do some incense, this, that. That's all. Not very big business. If one is expert like Arjuna or Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, that is different thing. Just like this Advaita, he was given in Press. Now he sees that, "I can work anywhere else, I can get money. Why should I waste my time?" He neglected. That means viṣaya attracted him. He thought, "I am qualified man. Why should I waste my time with this Press?" Therefore he gone to hell. He sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and now he's getting some money he's satisfied. He's thinking that he has become a big man. Śyāmasundara: Ātreya Ṛṣi went to see them in New York the last day, but they wouldn't come. Prabhupāda: Both . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: They are getting money from other karmīs , so why they should come? They are thinking that "As family man we must make money." Ato gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair , huh? House, land, children, friends, money for increasing their illusion. Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Then entanglement. Finish. *He does not know that he is being finished, and he's thinking that, "I am making profit." Parābhavas tāvad abodha*-jāta. This rascal, he's being defeated. He does not know. He got the chance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And he is attracted by little pounds, dollar. (pause) But his wife is good, Balai Dāsī. She is coming. Śyāmasundara: Yes, she came to maṅgala-ārati. Prabhupāda: She comes, and she said: "Then we live separately," Advaita. He (she) doesn't like. He's such a rascal. Such a nice, good, beautiful wife, and he's neglecting. Milk, here they take cold milk, and they. No. Milk should be hot, and it should be taken little, little. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is the way of taking milk. And this masalā , it has made taste good. In India, especially in Northern India, Punjab, they will take at night milk, invariably. No other things. They, all businessmen, the Marwari Gujaratis, they'll take food before evening, and then again they work. *Then after ten they will come home and take little milk and go. (pause) So fund*-raising committee maybe established in Bombay, making her the president of the Trust. Then Giriraja will have no difficulty. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They will contribute. And if she canvasses, she can collect lakhs . Śyāmasundara: But one thing is, if Giriraja takes advantage and begins preaching in her school daily . . . she's invited him, open invitation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it will be pleased. Śyāmasundara: Then when she'll see her students improve, and she'll give us all the help. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got land, many people will contribute materials. Materials . . . if we get materials from many big, big merchants . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, like, ah, Tarachand. Prabhupāda: Cement, iron, they will . . . "All right. Give it." Goods, anyone will give. Śyāmasundara: Tarachand Gupta, I think his name is. Prabhupāda: He is also our Life Member. He is nice. Śyāmasundara: Iron merchant. Prabhupāda: He wanted to invite me one day. He met me on the path. Do you remember? Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember. Prabhupāda: He's one of the richest men. Śyāmasundara: Yes. I think when you go back there the next year, or next autumn . . . Prabhupāda: Now we have created some impression that we are doing something nice. Even Keating is also impressed. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. We're not wandering from village to village anymore. We're settled. Prabhupāda: No. Even we wander from village to village, people are being impressed that we are doing something good. Actually it is so. I tell you it is so. One who cannot understand it, he is a fool. Actually we are doing the best work, God consciousness. And actually it is a fact: simply for want of God consciousness they are suffering. That's all. There is no other reason. The only reason is this. Just like this morning I said that, "God is the proprietor. Why you are claiming proprietor? You may be manager, not proprietor." Actually, that is our position. Just like I am head of this institution, but I am not dealing as proprietor. I am dealing as manager, head. Is it not? Śyāmasundara: This is the only society where Kṛṣṇa is the owner of everything. Prabhupāda: And all my assistants, they are also working in that capacity. If I would have been proprietor, then they would not have been interested. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: I would have collected the money and used for my sense gratification. Then nobody would help me. Śyāmasundara: I think the English milk is better than American milk, isn't it? Prabhupāda: I think so. This is from Holland. Śyāmasundara: Oh. There's some famous islands between England and Holland called the Jersey Islands. There's special milk comes from Jersey. Jersey milk, the best. Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision—their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why . . . they ask, "What is your specialness?" and "Just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are . . ." (aside) Oh, there is no water. "You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. So if you take, others will take." That is my aim. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter) That is, they are afraid. Because the Britishers, they kept Indian culture suppressed so long because . . . (break) . . . amongst the Kṣatriya , kings, in special cases. Not for public. Among the Kṣatriyas . And among the Vaiśyas , one day in a year, on Diwali to try one's luck. One day they will bet. Not amongst the Brāhmins or the Śūdras . Śūdras have no money to gamble, and Brāhmins prohibited. The Kṣatriyas , they are also allowed in special cases, and Vaiśyas were allowed to engage in gambling one day in a year. That means restricted. Śyāmasundara: Boy, that system of dharma . . . we can start discussing it tomorrow in our philosophy class. It's just so perfect. Everything is . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whole plan is perfect. Śyāmasundara: But the British systematically broke it down. Prabhupāda: Because Lord Macaulay gave them in this study, they said that if you keep the Indians in their original culture, then they cannot be broken. Gandhi took that state: noncooperation. Don't cooperate with them. And then kill them. Śyāmasundara: This man who wrote this book made an interesting comment. He said that after . . . or before the First World War, when the British were entering the First World War, they got the . . . they made a promise to the Indians that, "If you help us fight this war, then we will give you freedom afterwards." Prabhupāda: They did not. Śyāmasundara: They helped, but they didn't give them freedom. So Gandhi or the others, they took that Azad . "They have broken their promise, so now we can break our cooperation, noncooperation." Prabhupāda: Yes. They actually expanded their empire they only won the two war by Indian cooperation. Therefore these big men like Attlee, when they thought that, "India is going out of our hand," so don't dream of our empire. Forget it. They voluntarily quit it. Śyāmasundara: The whole thing. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now they are not, those Englishmen, as they were in Victoria days all. Nobody cares for you. Śyāmasundara: You'll see the last remnants at that Commonwealth Club, I think, engagement. No more, no one cares. Prabhupāda: Commonwealth is in name. (pause) Śyāmasundara: Still, there is something about London. Everyone likes to come here. There's so many . . . there's not enough hotel rooms even. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: There's not even enough hotel rooms to accommodate so many tourists who come here to London. Prabhupāda: London is still famous. People outside, they have got very high idea about London. Śyāmasundara: Civilized. Very civilized city. Prabhupāda: Why civilized? Do you think it is especially civilized? Śyāmasundara: Well, a lot more than America, anyway. By comparison it seems civilized, in the sense there is not so much violence. There's not . . . people are honest, upright, moral, a little more. Prabhupāda: In America general life is becoming wretched. Śyāmasundara: Wretched. Police don't even carry guns here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: Policemen don't even carry guns in Britain, but in America every policeman's got at least one gun. Prabhupāda: The Englishmen . . . I've studied Englishmen. They consider America is still (un)civilized. They say like that. They, in making up. Śyāmasundara: Still uncivilized, yeah. *Prabhupāda: But here also hippy*-ism growing. Śyāmasundara: They've lost that old aristocracy civilization. Losing it fast. (pause) *Prabhupāda: So write Girirāja immediately a letter, that she has agreed to become the president of the Trust. You make a Trust body for fund*-raising, and our best Life Members, and Sumati Morarji, and make her the president of the Trust. You remain the secretary, and other also, as treasurer also. One or two of her own men. Śyāmasundara: Just a small number. Not a big Trust. Prabhupāda: Hmm. In this way you raise fund. Śyāmasundara: Meanwhile, he should start utilizing her invitation to teach in the school sometimes. Prabhupāda: Yes, and she'll cooperate. And write letter for permission for carrying our motorcar and incense. Śyāmasundara: Yes, and inform Gurudāsa . . . Prabhupāda: She has already agreed that, ah, what is called? Punks? The punks sent to Calcutta, and from there they carry to Los Angeles. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. I'm wondering why they can't take them directly. Prabhupāda: Directly not very many ships come to Hong Kong. Śyāmasundara: Oh, from Hong Kong that way, that direction, they don't come. They come on their way back. I see. Yeah, they take Chinese goods from Hong Kong to India. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: They take Chinese goods from Hong Kong to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śyāmasundara: There's not many from Hong Kong to America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore she said send to the . . . India. Take information. Śyāmasundara: Transfer to another boat. That will save them a thousand dollars a month. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's a thousand dollar contribution. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. And as it grows, it will increase. Prabhupāda: And send them a Gujarati papers, our magazine, distribution amongst their workers. Very satisfying, they will be satisfy. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Tell that to Girirāja? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Hundred, two hundred magazines. Prabhupāda: Not hundred. Say fifty, for distribution amongst his officers. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: So that everyone will be satisfied. Śyāmasundara: I think Kṣīrodakśāyī has the information on that car business. Because he once inquired and got papers. He may have them here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So make arrangement, at least two cars, nice cars. Śyāmasundara: One car, one van? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: One car and one van? Prabhupāda: Van? What is the use of van? Śyāmasundara: Well, they can carry many people, that's the thing, like a saṅkīrtana party. Prabhupāda: Saṅkīrtana may be six men. They can go in car. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: And better for carrying our luggage, add in the car some small . . . Śyāmasundara: Trailer. Prabhupāda: . . . trailer, yes, two . . . two wheel. Oh, it will go. Devotee: The advantage of the van is that they can sleep in it. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The advantage of a van is that it can be used for sleeping purposes also. Prabhupāda: Sleeping purpose in India, tropical country, if you carry camp, if you want to sleep somewhere you just immediately set up a camp and pass night very comfortably. And you go on the field passing stool. Just catch up some watery place. (laughter) Then you can cook, you can take bath, you can wash your dishes, then put up on the trailer and go on. Śyāmasundara: Mostly we'll be going to big . . . Prabhupāda: Or if you can send one van also, two cars and one van. Śyāmasundara: Mostly we'll be going to bigger cities anyway. The roads between big cities are all right. But if we go places . . . Prabhupāda: Work sincerely and everything will be supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Now take . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 2, 1972, London (Conversation and interview with Ian Polsen) Prabhupāda: . . . and if we repeat that, what is our fault? (laughter) Kyu ji? (What did you say?) Caturbhuja. Isme humara dosh kya hai? (What is our fault with this?) We say Kṛṣṇa said that, "He is a rascal who does not surrender unto Me." (laughs) Kṛṣṇa has chastised in so many places. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram . . . (indistinct) . . . ( BG 16.19). "Those who are envious, like that, I put them in the darkest region of hellish condition." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says like that. Another place He says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11): "A person who is rascal, he considers Me as ordinary human being." (break) Ian Polsen: . . . to surrender. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Ian Polsen: And you said that prostrate . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Prabhupāda: Very good. (laughs) Very nice. Ian Polsen: And I have come to ask Your Grace because I cannot make spiritual progress without the grace of the spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You will make progress. Your attitude is very nice. This is the asset. Hmm. Ian Polsen: My next question is . . . Prabhupāda: Our Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: The . . . (aside) You are feeling uncomfortable? (aside) You can give him some seat. He is not accustomed. Ian Polsen: No, thank you. I can sit here. Prabhupāda: (laughs) The . . . our present conditional life is rebellious. We have rebelled against the authority of Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord. It is very simple thing. Just like a person, a citizen, if he becomes rebellious, then he is arrested and put into custody, and his life becomes conditioned; he has no freedom. Similarly, as soon as we are rebellious to the authority of the Supreme Lord, we are captured by māyā —that is also an energy of Kṛṣṇa—and we become conditioned. So this is our position. So in this conditional life we can never be happy. That's a fact. So we have to transcend this conditional life and again become engaged in our constitutional position. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now our consciousness is polluted. We are thinking different way. Just like a madman thinks that . . . sometimes he says: "I am the king." He stands sometimes in the midst of the road: "Stop. I order you!" Does it not? Madman. (laughs) Nobody cares for him, but he says . . . thinks like that. Similarly, under the spell of this illusory energy, we are thinking differently. Somebody, I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking "Englishman," he is thinking "American." I am thinking, "I am proprietor of this"; I am thinking, "I am the master of this." So many ways. These things are all madman's proposition, that's all. So this madness can go when we actually surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then we can understand things as they are. So we are training our students in that way. If anyone is serious, then he can make his life successful, even during this span of life. So I'm very glad that you have got this attitude. So it is very simple thing. Hmm? There is a Bengali verse: *Just like a person ghostly*-haunted, he speaks so many nonsense, up to somebody's declaring, "I am God." First of all, "I am this; I am that. I am this; I am that. I want to become this. I want to become this." And when he is frustrated with everything, then he says, "I am God." That is also another illusion. How you can become God? So, insanity. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means sanity. That's all. So to come to that position of sanity, Lord Caitanya has given us very simple method: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If anyone sincerely chants without any offense, then his life is successful. So what is your name? Ian Polsen: Ian Polsen. Prabhupāda: Polsen. Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside) So you . . . you can talk with Mr. Polsen and give him instruction. Ian Polsen: Thank you, Your Grace. Before I go, Your Grace, I am employed in government service. Is it your wish that I resign? Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say like that. The thing is that you serve Kṛṣṇa. Our predecessors, the ācāryas , they are also government servant, but they resigned when they decided to preach this cult. If you have desire to preach this cult, then that is different. Otherwise, as a gentleman you can remain in your position, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and follow the rules and regulation. That we recommend. Ian Polsen: Your Grace, how many times do you recommend that I chant on my beads? How many rounds? Prabhupāda: We recommend minimum sixteen rounds. Ian Polsen: Minimum sixteen rounds, every day. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, you can chant twenty*-four hours. Minimum sixteen rounds. Ian Polsen: Is it true that if I follow the regulative principles, the four, that I will be able to chant without offense? Prabhupāda: Yes. But, ah . . . you are married? No. Ian Polsen: No. Prabhupāda: No family man? No. So best thing would have been to live with us and work, give contribution as much as possible for running on this missionary work. But the thing is, we have no place to . . . Śyāmasundara: We haven't got a very nice place. Prabhupāda: Otherwise I would have asked you to live with us and work. Śyāmasundara: We're trying to get a nice place, with bigger facilities. Now they're sleeping in the hallways practically. Prabhupāda: You have got your own apartment? Ian Polsen: I've just transferred down from Edinburgh on Friday for the first time. So I have not found a place yet. I'm staying in a hotel for the time being. Prabhupāda: Oh. Kulaśekhara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he used to be a shepherd in France. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Kulaśekhara: He used to be a shepherd three years ago. He lived as a shepherd for some years. And, ah, he was with a Muslim man who was telling him about sac*-cid-ānanda , explaining to him about the philosophy of sac-cid and ānanda , about the soul and the spirit. So, in explained—that's when I first met him—he said: "I may appear to you that I'm a businessman, but also I've been living as a shepherd." Prabhupāda: So you can read our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . You have got? Ian Polsen: Yes, I have got Caitanya's teachings. I have . . . Prabhupāda: *Nectar of Devotion* . . . Ian Polsen: I have *Nectar of Devotion*. *Prabhupāda: . . . Teachings of Lord Caitanya , Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. *Ian Polsen: I have Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: In this way, study seriously these books. Ian Polsen: May I speak, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: There is a magazine called Studies in Comparative Religion which is published in this country, which I feel . . . Prabhupāda: That will not help you. Ian Polsen: No, but the reason why I mention it is that I think it is a magazine that Your Grace might contribute to, to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because it's based on three principles: principles of a traditional religion, the principles of spiritual guidance from a spiritual master, and the invocation of the name of God. There is great similarity there, and I think that the few people who read that magazine could be reached through the magazine. Prabhupāda: What is the name? Ian Polsen: It is called Studies in Comparative Religion . And I could leave the . . . I have no interest in this magazine except that I subscribe to it. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. Comparative religion, from our point of view, that there cannot be many religion. Cannot be many religion. Religion means . . . we define religion as the law given by God. So we understand from Bhagavad*-gītā that God says, Kṛṣṇa says, that man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your obeisances unto Me." So any religion who has no conception of God, how he can think of God? If I think of something, that something must be known to me; *otherwise how can I think of it? If I imagine something, that is not God. My imagination of God is . . . God is not a thing to be imagined by me. He is a concrete thing. Therefore according to our philosophy, any so*-called religion which has no conception of God, that is not religion; that is simply mental speculation. We accept religion means the law given by God. But if you do not know what is God, what is His law, then where is religion? *Therefore in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said that all types of pseudo religion is rejected. You can ask any religious man, "What is your conception of God?" he cannot give any clear conception. So far we are concerned, we can immediately give conception of God—His name, His address, everything. That is the difference. Therefore strictly speaking, we do not accept any system of religion as bona fide. They are all rejected. That is not religion. They do not know what is God. What is that religion? Strictly speaking, that is not religion. But if we speak publicly, they will be angry. So this comparative study of religion, we don't believe in it, because there is no religion. Where is the scope of comparative study? Śyāmasundara: Nothing can compare. Prabhupāda: There is no religion. Strictly speaking, simply some dogmas, maybe some moral principle. That is another thing. But moral principle we have to transcend. We don't say that don't follow moral principle. But even they do not follow the moral principles. Then what is the . . . where is the religion? Just like Christian religion, it is said that, "Thou shall not kill." But everyone is killing. So nobody's . . . factually, religion means conception of God and the words of God, following the words. Just like good citizen means he knows what is the government and what is the law of government. He is following. Similarly, religious person means he must know what is God and what is the words . . . what are the words of God. So our principle is that we follow the words of God. God says . . . God says that, "Always think of Me." So who can object to this, if he's seriously about religion? Why one should not think of God always? God says that, "You think of Me." But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of? We have got God, Kṛṣṇa, here. We can think of His form. *We are busy in His service. We are not only thinking, we are trying to become His devotee. We are serving, trying to serve Him—rising early in the morning, offering maṅgala-āratrika , then prayers, then reading His message, trying to apply in our life as far as possible. We are not perfect, but we are trying to follow the instruction of God. This is our life. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakta mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. So you have studied that magazine. Can you give me any idea, what do you think about religion? What is religion? *Ian Polsen: Religion to me means more now that I have come in contact with Kṛṣṇa consciousness than it did before. It means self*-realization. It means realization of my relationship with the Supreme. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ian Polsen: It is to understand that, and to realize it to the limit of my intelligence. Prabhupāda: Say . . . so first of all you have to realize what you are, then you can understand what is your relationship with God. And according to that relationship with God, when you act, that is religion. That is religion. Ian Polsen: And one needs guidance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. First of all we have to know ourselves. To know ourselves means self*-realization: "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." Then what is this spirit soul? Naturally, part and parcel of God. Therefore as spirit soul my duty is to serve God. That is religion, plain thing. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. It is serving me. That is healthy condition. If there is any pain—"Oh, this finger I cannot scratch. I'm feeling pain"—that is irreligion. So long the part and parcel of my body, the finger, cannot serve me, it is not normal condition. So every living being is part and parcel of God. So long he's unable to serve God, that is his material condition. But as soon as he's engaged actually in the service of God, that is his real, liberated position. Same example: If the finger is diseased, it cannot serve. But when it is serving . . . (indistinct) . . . that is his healthy condition. Similarly, we living entities, we are part and parcel of God. When we are not engaged in the service of the Lord, or God . . . everyone is engaged to some service. Somebody's serving his family, somebody's serving himself, somebody's serving his government, somebody's serving so many things. And somebody's serving even cats and dogs. So these are all mad condition. So when he turns to God . . . service he must give. Nobody can say: "I'm not serving anybody." That is not possible. You must be serving somebody. Just like you are serving government, he is serving some office, because service is our nature. So we are not happy, because the service is misplaced. When the service is rightly placed, then it is our normal condition. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that: "You surrender unto Me." That is real liberated condition. So our mission is serving God. In this way, that people are suffering on account of their godless life. Just see. So we are making propaganda that, "Serve God, then you will be happy." We know why he's suffering. The same example: The finger in diseased condition cannot serve me. It has to be treated when there is some pain. Suppose this, the nail, so I apply some medicine, cure it so that it can serve. So the whole world is suffering because he's not fit to serve God. So if he becomes fit to serve God, then all the suffering will be gone. The same example again: When the finger is fit to serve, that means it has no disease. And so long it is diseased, there is pain, it cannot serve. Śyāmasundara: It suffers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: And it suffers. Prabhupāda: It is suffering. When it is not serving, therefore it is suffering, and when it is serving, there is no suffering. Two things. There cannot be three thing. This is very scientific. It is not imagination. The finger is not serving me means it is diseased. It is suffering. So they're not accepting this process. We say that you are suffering because you're not serving God. You serve God, your sufferings will be gone. Do you think our philosophy is all right, or not? Ian Polsen: I accept it completely. Yes. Śyāmasundara: I think he has been also well educated. He understands the truth. Kulaśekhara: Did you go to ārati ? Ian Polsen: No. Prabhupāda: Hmm. As soon as you are engaged in the service of the Lord, we are in healthy condition—there is no suffering. Just like these boys, they did not know Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, two years or three years ago. But since they have been engaged in the service of, they are feeling very nice, healthy. Everyone is asking me, "Why so many young men are attracted by this movement?" (laughs) They think it is movement. No. They have taken the real occupation—serving Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are receptive. When one is normally situated, naturally he feels happy and he's healthy. When in the diseased condition, he cannot be happy. When the disease is gone, in healthy condition, naturally you'll be happy. Indian man: Prabhupāda, is it to say it is a way of life or an aim of life? Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man: Way of life or aim of life? Prabhupāda: The aim is that you must get free from your diseased condition. That should be the aim. It is not the way of life. You must get free yourself from the diseased condition. That is not a way of life, that is a must. If you want to be free from diseased condition, you must treat yourself properly. The treating is . . . Treatment is you surrender unto God and take to His service. This is simple. You are suffering, that's a fact. Everyone knows. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody can say: "No, I am not suffering." Is there anybody? The body is meant for suffering, this material body. But because they do not approach the real physician, they think that they have got a material body, and that material body means there are senses, the sense gratification will give him satisfaction. Therefore he's simply after sense gratification, that's all. That is not treatment. That is still more complication. Śyāmasundara: Aggravates the disease. Prabhupāda: That's all. People after sense gratification. A diseased man who cannot digest, if he thinks that, "I shall eat this, I shall eat that, I shall eat that," but actually he cannot digest. Eating this or that, how it will help him? (laughs) If you have lost your digesting powers, then if you change, "I shall eat this, I shall eat that," that will not help you. So the modern civilized man, he has lost the point how he can be happy. He is simply changing the program of sense gratification. That's all. Ian Polsen: Becoming more and more desperate. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break) We have no objection. We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that's all. That is our mission. You are forget . . . (break) You understand little Bengali? Guest: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: *After forgetting Kṛṣṇa, one wants to lord it over the material nature, but he becomes . . . (break) Especially in the Western world—everywhere—attracting sex life. Mini*-skirt, so that the other party may be attracted. So many means and ways, they want to avoid the after-result of sex life, contraceptive. *The center is sex life. They are giving up everything, the hippies, but sex is there. That they cannot give up. You see? So*-called giving up, but they cannot give the real central point. *So this is māyā . He's captured by this one idea, mithuna. Mithuna. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Everyone is attracted by this sex life. We are trying to use this sex life in different way. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇa-bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . They're becoming diseased in so many ways. Sex life, indulgence of sex life, means you will become diseased, so many disease. That is a medical fact. So this movement is very scientific movement, authorized. Anyone who will take to it seriously surely will be cured of this material disease and be happy. Ian Polsen: Your Grace, you said I needn't give up my job, but may I look forward to the time when I may give up my job? Prabhupāda: You come morning, evening; you come. As far as possible associate with us and try to give some service. Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: Suppose you are getting some money. We have no money. If you try to serve, that will . . . sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). This line is service. The more you render service, the more you become enlightened. If you simply philosophize, theorize, you'll get no benefit. You must render service. Ian Polsen: May I join the kīrtana in the streets over the weekend? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes, whenever you get opportunity, kīrtana . Yes. Very nice. Ian Polsen: Dressed as I am? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ian Polsen: Dressed as I am? Prabhupāda: Why not? Dress is not very essential. Ian Polsen: There is another question, Your Grace. I wear leather shoes, and I know they come from animals . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: . . . which have been slaughtered for this. Should I stop wearing leather shoes? Prabhupāda: Well, that also you can continue. That is not . . . just like we are using so many things made of skin. But as far as possible, you avoid. There are many shoes without skin, nowadays they are available. First of all try to understand the philosophy. It is very nice attitude that you are . . . (pause) What salary you are getting, government service? Ian Polsen: I've just been promoted. Prabhupāda: Huh? Ian Polsen: I've just been promoted to deal with Value Added Tax, and I will go up from 1,400 pounds a year to 1,700 or 1,800 pounds a year. I'm not sure of my new salary, because I'm starting on Monday. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That means our 150 pounds per month? Ian Polsen: Less the tax. Prabhupāda: Less the tax. *Śyāmasundara: About 4,500 a year, dollars, I think. Thirty*-six hundred? (other devotees calculate) Ian Polsen: Do you deal in percentages? Prabhupāda: Anything can be . . . which can be engaged in the service of the Lord should not be given up. This is our philosophy. Should not be given up. We don't say: "Oh, money is material. I do not touch. My hand becomes turned up." No. (laughs) We don't say all these nonsense philosophy. We know the money, lakṣmī , is Kṛṣṇa's property, so it should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Why it should . . . money we should not touch? Money is Kṛṣṇa's. It must be touched and it should be used for Kṛṣṇa. We don't try to . . . forget that pseudo renouncement. What I have got I shall renounce? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. *Our renouncement means we renounce our personal sense gratification, that's all. That is renouncement. Materialism means personal sense gratification, and spiritual life means no personal sense gratification—all Kṛṣṇa's gratification. That's all. The same teaching by Bhagavad*-gītā. Arjuna was thinking in terms of personal sense gratification: "I shall not fight. It is not good to kill my kinsmen, my brother." That was his personal sense gratification. From ordinary point of view people will say: "How Kṛṣṇa is . . . Arjuna is nice, that he's giving up his claim, and nonviolent." *But this philosophy Kṛṣṇa immediately kicked out. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam (BG 2.2): "Oh, why you are talking nonsense like this?" That was His answer. (laughs) And next He said, aśocyān anvaśocas tvam prajñā*-vādāṁś ca (BG 2.11), "You are talking just like a very learned man, but this kind of lamentation is not done by any learned man. That means you are fool number one." (laughter) *So after understanding Bhagavad*-gītā he agreed to fight: "Yes. I shall fight." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now people will say, "Oh, fighting, killing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Yes, Kṛṣṇa wants it. To . . . therefore our business is not in the estimation of this material world to become a good man. Our estimation is how Kṛṣṇa will accept me as good man, that's all. We don't care for this world. Just like gopīs, they left their husband, they left their father, went to Kṛṣṇa. What is this philosophy? They wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not their father, brother. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "This is the highest worship." Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū*-vargeṇa yā kalpitā (Caitanya-manjusa). There is no greater, or topmost sample of worship than the gopīs did. Because their only purpose was to serve Kṛṣṇa, unalloyed, without being disturbed by any other consideration. That is highest perfection—how to serve Kṛṣṇa. How Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. *So at the present moment the best service to render for Kṛṣṇa is that . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . when I speak of Kṛṣṇa, means God, the Supreme Lord. The whole rascal world, they have given up God consciousness. They have become rascal. Therefore to teach them about Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the best service at the present moment. Because the whole world—the so*-called politician, so-called scientist, so-called philosopher—they're all rascals. They have forgotten God. We, we call them directly, they're all rascals, mūḍhā , duṣkṛtina mūḍhā . All sinful, all rascals, because they have no information of God, Kṛṣṇa. Ask any scientist, "Do you know anything about Kṛṣṇa?" "Oh, what is Kṛṣṇa? What is God? This is all foolish, humbug." They will say like that. And he's passing as great scientist. He's fool number one, but he's passing as great scientist. (laughter) Hah! Our Śyāmasundara's daughter, little daughter, she preaches, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" If somebody says: "No, I do not," "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." (laughter) Actually that is nice preaching. Śyāmasundara: The scientist's in California. Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientists comes to us. We say: "You are rascal number one." And he agrees. (laughter) Hah! I call him by rascal, fool, demon, and at last he agrees, "Yes." (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Still they went away happy. Prabhupāda: This is actual fact. One who does not know about God, what is the value of his knowledge? Ian Polsen: What you say about scientists is also true of Western philosophers . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Ian Polsen: . . . who consider . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is temporary. Suppose a scientist has discovered this nice lamp. So I give him credit, but I can do without this lamp. It is not very necessary. (laughter) Indian man: The modern science is medicine. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: Medical science. Prabhupāda: What medical science? Can they stop disease? What is the value? If they can stop disease then I can accept that they know something. What is their . . . Śyāmasundara: In India the doctors, simply by feeling your pulse they know everything that's wrong with you. Prabhupāda: No. Even that. No physician can stop disease. He can suggest, "This is very nice medicine," but my problem is, "Why shall I become diseased?" That is my problem. Ian Polsen: They only treat the symptoms, not the cause. Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, you can give me some medicine; for the time being I am cured and again I fall diseased. You cannot stop disease. Suppose you have got a very nice coat. That's all right. But one has got not so nice coat, so what is the difference? Śyāmasundara: Coat. *Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so*-called scientific improvement, nice medicine . . . nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall . . . I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that? Ian Polsen: That's true. Indian: That's the hardest part of the whole . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like your British Empire. You are British? Ian Polsen: Yes. Prabhupāda: British Empire, when there was British Empire, when they were getting money from all parts of the world, some way or other they constructed so many big, big buildings. Now their income is not so big, and now it is difficult to maintain it. We can see practically that you have got so nice buildings in London, but it is not being properly maintained. You haven't got sufficient means now to maintain them. Therefore it was . . . British Empire was for the time being that prosperity. Now to keep up your prestige you are concerned in so many ways. So anything you do in this material world, that is temporary. So many Roman Empire, Moghul Empire, British Empire, Hitler Empire—they came and gone. But my real problem is that I am eternal, so what I am doing for my eternal life? That is real. Temporarily I may become very rich or poor; it doesn't matter. But people are being taught, "Oh, you are poor? You become rich." That's all. Just like our India trying to imitate the Western world. But they do not see that in the Western world, in America, in Europe, why these young boys, they are rejecting this materialistic way of life? These boys have come to me because they have rejected. They don't like. Just like you are coming. Why you are surrendering to me? Because you are not satisfied. *So our Indians, they do not see that, "These men, they . . . they have already everything. Why they are rejecting it?" All facility. Because this will not give us real happiness. We are spirit soul. We cannot be happy simply by material opulence. That is not possible. This is Vedic civilization: how people will be happy. They can be happy simply by self*-realization, spiritual realization, because he is spirit. Material advancement will never make us happy. That's a fact. People have not become happy. In India they say that we neglected this material side therefore. But actually that's not the fact. They have lost their own spiritual culture, therefore they are not . . . but still, whatever little spiritual culture they have got, still they are happier than others, if I make comparative study. In India still in village you'll find a man of practically no income, but he has got his happy home, good wife, a cottage, little bread, but he is happy. *You see? Here I see they have no home, no family life. Even ordinary necessities of life—means eating, sleeping, sex life and defense . . . they have no fixed*-up eating. In America, in the Bowery street, lying down on the street, drinking. You see? So many. Here also in your country, day and night. In India they are lying, suppose they are poverty stricken, lying on the street. Now why you are lying on the street? When I go to the park I see so many there. Our philosophy is that there is no necessity of wasting time for economic development. Be satisfied whatever Kṛṣṇa has given you. That's all right. Be satisfied according to your position, save time, and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the verdict of the śāstra . Because your happiness and distress is already fixed up. According to the body you have got it. You cannot change that. You cannot change that. Indian man: Prabhupāda, I may be wrong here, but Lord Kṛṣṇa has given human being brain, mind . . . Prabhupāda: But misuse it. Indian man: No, if we use it properly. Prabhupāda: But he does not know. That is . . . therefore we call these rascal. Why we are calling these scientists, philosophers, politician rascal? Because they have got brain, but they're misusing. Therefore they have been called duṣkṛtinaḥ . You have got brain; you can utilize it for smuggling and you can utilize it also how to understand Kṛṣṇa. The same brain. Indian man: But the development of mankind . . . Prabhupāda: Development . . . if you become miscreants by utilizing your better brain, then what is the use? You are going to hell. This brain has no meaning. MIsuse of brain. Brain means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is brain. Indian man: Yes. Perform his duty. Prabhupāda: He does not know what is his duty. He talks of so many big, big things, duty. But if I ask, "What is your duty?" he cannot explain. So these things will not help. Simply . . . Indian man: Every man in this world, every being in this world have got a duty, performance, object . . . Prabhupāda: But first of all say what is your duty. Indian man: Duty of the soul. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is your duty? If I ask you: "What is your duty?" what is your answer? Indian man: Lead a good life, develop soul, and, ah, be honest, sincere to people, and, ah . . . Prabhupāda: These are simply words, but you cannot say what is your duty. Indian man: To serve, Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So, why don't you do that? (laughter) That is real duty, yes. Indian man: So we agree. *Prabhupāda: We are teaching that it is your . . . this your duty. Our so*-called material duties as we have done, "This is my duty," that is called dharma . But Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66): "You give up your all nonsense duty." (laughter) Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Śyāmasundara: Give up your duty. Prabhupāda: Give up your all nonsense duty. Kṛṣṇa says. So your first duty is to give up your nonsense duty. (laughter) That is your first duty. That "You have concocted so many duties, but please give up all these ideas," that is your first duty. Everyone has manufactured his duty. Just like in our country all the leaders, they thought, "It is my duty," and every other country also, "take to politics." Huh? But people did not become happy. Rather, they were so unhappy that a great leader like Gandhi was killed. But he thought, "I am doing my duty." But why he was killed? Indian man: T’is inevitable. Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: It was inevitable. Someway or other he has to be . . . Prabhupāda: But inevitable means . . . inevitable, that's all right, but as you are speaking of duty, so Gandhi was working his duty, but other man killed him. He thought that, "You are not doing your duty." Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So who is the judge of what is your duty? What I may think is my duty, someone else may think it's his duty—it's not my duty. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. So what is the duty? Dhanañjaya: The duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real duty. But people do not know that. They are manufacturing their duty. A big man like Gandhi, he also manufactured his duty, but he does not know what is the duty. He never preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore he does not know his duty. *Śyāmasundara: He said that the message of Bhagavad*-gītā is nonviolence. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Opposite. Whatever message it is . . . he was supposed to be a very good scholar of Bhagavad*-gītā. His photograph is with the Bhagavad-gītā. But he did not speak a single word that, "You become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." He talked so many nonsense. All others . . . the real Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." *Nobody says, neither Tilak, Gandhi, this Ramakrishna, this Aurobindo. Nobody says that. He's made purposefully avoiding his duty. And these rascals are going as dutiful. His duty was to say as Kṛṣṇa says, if he is actually student of Bhagavad*-gītā . Here is Kṛṣṇa saying that you surrender, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We are doing that duty. We are not speaking something nonsense. *We are speaking, "Here Kṛṣṇa says surrender. You surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Simple thing. We don't manufacture duty. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to say people, "Here Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). You become His devotee, you always think of Him, you offer Him obeisances." Our simple duty. Indian man: Prabhupāda, yes, that's the way, but we ". . . (indistinct) . . . that is, to love Thy creation." We cannot see Kṛṣṇa straightaway. But human beings, the medium to love His creation. Prabhupāda: You are also talking. Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me." If say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa," what is the difficulty? Indian man: No difficulties. Prabhupāda: Then why are you manufacturing words? Why don't you go in the simple way? Why you are manufacturing in your own way? This is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." You serve Kṛṣṇa, speak to people, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." It is simple. Why you are manufacturing words? That is the disease. The Gandhi did like that. Tilak did like that. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 7, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa, not Kṛṣṇa's money. (laughter) That is taken by Rāvaṇa. (laughter) Just like Sītā belonged to Rāma, but it was taken by Rāma, er . . . Rāvaṇa. And that is . . . and Hanumān become perplexed. So we are perplexed that Rāma . . . Sītā has been taken by Rāvaṇa, and so we are trying to rescue her. *And that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Sītā-Lakṣmījī, eh? Rāmacandra*-Lord Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. So Rāvaṇa thought that, "Let me make profit taking away Sītā." The result was that he became vanquished with everything. He could not get the favor of Sītā, but the whole family, whole kingdom became vanquished. So this policy is being followed at the present moment. Everybody is interested with Sītā, not with Rāma. You see? But the foolish people do not know that without Rāma you cannot keep Sītā. You see? That is happening. When you go to ask for some money in India, they give us one thousand, two thousand. And when there is war within Pakistan and Hindustan, somebody is giving fifty lakhs , somebody is giving hundred lakhs . And what is being used? Namo "bombayah" namaḥ. "Bombayah." *So if you don't spend for Rāma, then you will have to spend for bomb, that's all. You cannot keep the money. That is the way of nature. That, "I want to keep money"—that is illusion. You cannot keep. It will be spoiled. If you don't spend for Kṛṣṇa, then it will be spoiled for some other purpose. Therefore so long as we have got money, let us spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is real savings. That is real savings. There is a verse, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer ( SB 1.5.17). That verse is very nice. Hmm? Where is it? *Dhanañjaya: Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (break) *Evaṁ tāvat tat karma*-karmādi anartha-hetutva taṁ vihāya harer līlāiva bandhaniya tam . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary) Nārada Muni is advising that if one gives up his prescribed duty, sva-dharmaṁ . . . tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ. Sva-dharmaṁ means occupation. According to Vedic thought, occupation means brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra—guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now we have got somebody is businessman, somebody is lawyer, somebody is engineer, somebody is something. So somehow or other, everybody has got some prescribed duty or occupation. *So here it is advised, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann : even one gives up his prescribed duty and takes shelter of Hari, Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann. Now if one executes devotional service after taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, that is all right—but even if he falls down, and in immature stage, the Bhagavat says, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ : "What is the loss there?" Just try to understand. Even if he falls down . . . because there are so many strict rules and regulation. If one follows the rules and regulation, and the devotional . . . avyabhicāreṇa bhakti . So even if he becomes avyabhicāreṇa , broken, and he may be not successful in one life, but Nārada Muni says—this is the word of Nārada Muni—says: "Then what is the loss there?" *But if one is engaged in his occupational duty very perfectly but he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then what is his gain? This is the question. Ko vārtha āpto : what does he gain, abhajatāṁ , if he is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, sva*-dharmataḥ , but he is fixed up in his prescribed duties? So we have to understand this important verse, that we may be very faithfully discharging our duties as a family man, as a community man, as a nationalist, as a businessman or this or that perfectly, but if we do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no gain—it is simply waste of time. This is the verdict. On the other hand, one gives up the occupational duties, prescribed duties, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even if he does not advance perfectly—if he falls down—there is no loss. Here this man sticking to his prescribed duty does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no gain. On the other hand, a man gives up his prescribed duty, takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness but does not make it perfect—falls down—he has no loss. Try to understand. So Śrīdhara Svāmī remarks on this, nānusvadharma tyāgena bhajana bhakti paripakena yadi kṛtārtho bhavet tadā na kadācit cintā . All right, one has given up his prescribed duty and he is engaged in devotional service. That's very nice; there is no question. But yadi punar apakva eva mriyate . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary). There is no anartha , no anartha . There is no anartha ; still he is gainer. The thing is that this man who has given up his prescribed duties and taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even he falls down, whatever percentage he has executed, it goes with him, whereas in ordinary work, suppose you are a businessman, you have accumulated millions of dollars in the bank—when you go, the money remains in the bank; *you go empty*-handed. Śyāmasundara: Death duties . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have worked so hard for this millions of dollars—it is all lost. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham (BG 10.34): "I am death, and as death I take away everything." *So the purport is that whether I accumulate millions of dollars, and at the time of my death it remains in the bank and I go empty*-handed, and according to my karma I take another birth, may be human being or cats and dogs—that is a different thing—but whatever I have accumulated here, that remains here—it does not go with me. *But this devotional service, whatever you have executed, even if it is not fulfilled cent percent, even it is ten percent or fifteen percent, that ten percent, fifteen percent or fifty percent goes with you, and next life you get a chance for begin either from fifty*-one percent or sixteen percent, as you have . . . But all other material assets, that you cannot take. Therefore the conclusion is that so long we have got some strength, intelligence, money, it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that it will go with us. Indian guest: Swami, could you explain in simple words what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Explain what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Indian guest: Yes, in simple . . . Prabhupāda: You explain, Revatīnandana Mahārāja. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to understand first of all that I am not this body; that this body is born, this body dies, but I am not this body. I am an eternal spirit, jīvātmā , and I am living in this body. Then when this body is finished, I will go out of this body. And whatever is my desire at death, whatever is my work in this life, I will get another body in that condition. It will go on like this. *But the solution how to get the eternal soul out of the cycle of birth and death is to understand that the spirit soul, the jīvātmā , is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. In the Fourth Chapter of Kṛṣṇa's Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "When you have seen the truth, you will see that all these living beings are My parts and parcels. They are in Me, and they are Mine." (BG 4.35) And Kṛṣṇa says that these part and parcels are all eternal. They are eternal entities; they are actually associates of Kṛṣṇa. We have forgotten this. Now to revive my relationship with Kṛṣṇa, the part and parcel serves the whole. Just like the part of the hand . . . the part of the body is the hand. The hand must take foods and must put the foodstuff to the mouth and into the stomach; then the hand is nourished. If the hand tries to enjoy the food separately, that will be frustration, there will be no benefit. But the part and parcel, the hand, must serve the whole body. Similarly, we part and parcel entities are, by nature, we are servants of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are serving boss, country, family, and if we have nothing else to serve we serve a dog or a cat. But we are always a servant. Service is part of our nature. That is the thing you cannot change. We are all servants. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that I am not anymore serving on this bodily platform but I am serving as a spirit, and the spirit is meant to serve God, to serve Kṛṣṇa. *So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become conscious that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. It's His energies. I am part of His energies. Therefore every energy should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. My business is to offer it. This is called bhakti*-yoga . This is what we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one understands, begins to act on that principle, then he is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The result is that he purifies his existence. Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman, Supreme Spirit. When you link with Kṛṣṇa you are purified, and you realize, "I am spirit soul," and even before quitting this body you are seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere in that pure state. Then automatically in that state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even this body is dying . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "One who is always fixed his mind on Me can know and remember Me even at the time of death." (Bg 8.5) And thus you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa—that is your desire, for Kṛṣṇa—you take birth in His eternal abode, which is called Vaikuṇṭha, or actually Goloka Vṛndāvana. So to . . . Prabhupāda: Indian guest: Where to fix our attention then these days? To "fix the attention in Me" means . . . what does He means by "Me"? Prabhupāda: What do you mean? What do you mean? Indian guest: That . . . at the time of death. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "Me"? Indian guest: "Me" means . . . at this junction, there is nothing. Prabhupāda: If I say: "Give me a glass of water," what do I mean by this? Indian guest: Yes. Do you mean this body? I don't think you mean that body. There is something else in me, so for the bodily person, if it is not explained properly . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore, bodily person, this education is being imparted, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul." Now, at this present moment, when I speak in my bodily concept of life, "Give me a glass of water," that water is needed for my body. Indian guest: The soul is not to be seen, so what can a man, by dying, fix his attention or ātmā , in what? It is not to be seen. And nirākāra , there is a God, we cannot see it. So could it be made clear in worldly words to which a man, by dying . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot see . . . you cannot see so many things. That does not mean that things are not existing. You cannot see what is beyond this wall. Indian guest: So . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Your seeing power is very defective. So this is not a argument, that because you cannot see, there is no soul. That is not good argument. You cannot see beyond this wall. That does not mean there is nothing beyond this wall. *Your seeing power is defective. So you cannot see so many things—but you can hear. Just like beyond this wall, who knows? He can say: "Beyond this wall there is another house, belongs to Mr. Such*-and-such." He can say. So you can understand what is beyond this wall by hearing, not by seeing. Similarly, you see there is no soul, but you can hear from Kṛṣṇa there is soul. Kṛṣṇa says: So you have to hear from Kṛṣṇa. Why do you believe on your seeing power? You are so defective, and still you are believing on your seeing power. Your argument is, "I cannot see." But what is the value of your seeing? Why don't you consider in that way? Indian guest: There are so many arguments . . . Prabhupāda: Your seeing is worthless. First of all you have to admit that. You cannot say, "Because I do not see, there is no existence." This is not argument. Indian guest: I am not arguing. I am trying to understand it, because I have . . . I want to understand it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now you understand that I say that just like nobody sees where is the soul. Birth, one can perceive—that is the education. Just like a man dies, his relatives cry, "Oh, my father gone. My father gone." Why your father is dying? See your father. You have seen your father, this body. Why you are crying? What is your answer? You have seen all along this body is your father. Why you are crying, "My father is gone, my father is gone"? Why? Indian guest: That is why I ask—that is it cannot be seen . . . Prabhupāda: That means that you have not seen your father, so long you have . . . Indian guest: You have to be fixed up, fix the attention while dying. That is my question . . . Indian guest (2): Can I answer, Swami? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: Yes, you can answer. *Indian guest (2): For us, Kṛṣṇa is not just airy. His personality is as real as you and I are real. So when the attention is to be fixed, it is to be fixed on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa Himself—Kṛṣṇa with physical body, Kṛṣṇa as you see in the temple down below, Kṛṣṇa as described by Bhagavad*-gītā and described by Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Indian guest (2): Fix the attention on Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: That's it. *Indian guest (2): . . . Kṛṣṇa in His personalized form, and you will never go wrong. So while dying, fix your attention on Kṛṣṇa. And you can only do it if throughout your life if Kṛṣṇa's name is on your tongue. If for twenty*-four hours if you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, at the time of your death, His name will automatically come. Prabhupāda: His name and He are not different. Indian guest (2): He and His name, Swāmījī has taught us, not different. For any other thing, the object and its name are different. But for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's name is the same thing as Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: There is one more question, Swāmījī . . . (indistinct) . . . in *Gītā* it is said several times that ye bhajanti tattve. Tattve. What does it mean? How can you explain tattve ? Prabhupāda: What is the spelling? *Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . T*-a-t-t-v-e. I just want only to understand this. I don't want to ask you a question. I tell you very frankly. I want to ask a question to understand when in twenty-fourth verse of Ninth Chapter, which says: Tattven . . . this example, tattven ? Prabhupāda: Tattvena . Tattvena means "in truth." Tattvena means "in truth." In truth, what is actually Kṛṣṇa, that is called tattvena . So that can be understood, Kṛṣṇa explains: *That tattvena you can understand by bhakti . Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . So you have to take to the bhakti*-yoga; then you will understand what is tattvena . Indian guest (3): Why? Indian guest: If one is ignorant, what is the way of reaching that stage, when he can understand . . .? *Prabhupāda: Yes. First thing is śraddhā . Just like you are asking question: śraddhā , faith. Just like anyone who is coming to us, he has got some little faith. But that is the beginning— ādau śraddhā. Śraddhā means, "It is very nice. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice. Let us try to understand what it is." This is called śraddhā . Then next stage is ādau śraddhā tato sādhu*-saṅgo (CC Madhya 23.14), Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15). *Then next stage, if you are serious about this, to understand kṛṣṇa*-tattvena , then you must associate with persons who are actually kṛṣṇa-bhakta. Just like if you want to learn some business, you go to the association of that business society. You see? First of all you are interested, "I learn this business. I want to learn this business." All right, then you go to the society, stock exchange society, this society, banker's society, all this—you learn. *First of all this intention: śraddhā . Then sādhu*-saṅga. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgo. Sat-saṅga . Then bhajana-kriyā. Then as they are executing devotional service—they are rising early in the morning, having mangala-ārati , chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , reading books, taking prasāda , going to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness—these are called bhajana-kriyā . Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt : then things which are blocking you to understand kṛṣṇa-tattvena , that will be finished. That means anartha . Just like we prohibit our students not to have illicit sex; not to drink or any intoxication, up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; *no meat*-eating. *So these are within the bhajana*-kriyā. Early rising early in the morning, offering mangala-ārati —giving up all this nonsense habit. These are bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā , anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha means which you do not require. Just like without smoking, without drinking tea or liquor, you won't die; you have simply practiced to by bad association. *Similarly, by good association you can give it up. Just like these European, American boys, they were habituated to all these bad habits—but now they have given up. This is called anartha*-nivṛttiḥ . Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ , after that, tato niṣṭhā. Nisthā means firm faith. This firm faith is on the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa-tattvena. Otherwise you cannot have firm faith. *So you have to pass through so many stages, then you can come to the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa*-tattvena. Niṣṭhā . Tato niṣṭhā. Athāsaktis : then attachment. Athāsaktis tato bhāva : then ecstasy. Then you will get love of Kṛṣṇa. Any sādhaka who is actually trying to love God, these are the stages, kramaḥ . So you have to go through the kramaḥ pantha . Theoretically understanding will not help you. You have to take to practical life. Indian guest: Thank you very much . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. That is tattvena . Indian guest (4): May I ask you? Some of the students come from India, Bangladesh, and all places. So I generally come to the temple sometimes, and the other boys laugh at me that, "You come to the court of the temple," and so on. Because "You are a student, so you should worship goddess of learning." Prabhupāda: Who advises you? Indian guest (4): No, the Hindu religions. Prabhupāda: Who is that gentleman? Indian guest (4): There are goddess . . . Prabhupāda: Who is the leader of that Hindu religion? If you hear some nonsense, then that is a different thing. He is a nonsense who advise you like that. So you have to reject all this nonsense proposals. Indian guest (4): So you think that we shouldn't worship the goddess of learning? That Sarasvatī is . . . *Prabhupāda: No, if you are simply satisfied with goddess . . . learning, you can worship goddess of learning. But what your learning will do? That will not save you from the material, I mean to say, tribulations. There are so many learned scholar. Does it mean that he is not subject to birth, death, disease and old age? You become learned, but if you do not become so learned as to understand God, then what is the value of your learning? Ultimately, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : That means learning is not finished—it is still imperfect knowledge, jñānavān —unless he comes and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just like goddess of learning . . . this is a long story; it will take time. The goddess of learning, Keśava Bhāratī . . . she advised Keśava Bhāratī to . . . (break) Rather, the man who comes to the sunshine, he becomes disinfected. You follow what I said? Indian lady guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone is infected with some sinful life, so if he comes to the temple, the temple is not affected by his infection. Rather, the infected man becomes purified, sterilized. Indian lady guest: And what is a man's duty, should he do if his family is averse to Kṛṣṇa and if he wants to follow Kṛṣṇa's way? What should he do? Should he leave his family? Prabhupāda: Let him follow the Kṛṣṇa's way, that's all. That is his duty. Indian lady guest: Do his duty. Prabhupāda: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and what Kṛṣṇa says, do. That's all. That's your duty. *(break) . . . loko 'yam*-karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not work on account of Kṛṣṇa, then you become bound up by the resultant action of your karma , bad or good. Indian lady guest: Each one, Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian lady guest: Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be. Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Does Kṛṣṇa put you where He wants you to be? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa arrange for your situation in life, as if He wants it, so He makes you go there? Prabhupāda: Still I do not follow. Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . wherever Kṛṣṇa wants us to be, that is where we are. Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Our position in life is because Kṛṣṇa desires it. Prabhupāda: First you desire. I desire to become such and such, Kṛṣṇa helps me, "All right, you become such and such." Man proposes, God disposes. So if I want to become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa makes you a devotee. If you want to become a demon, Kṛṣṇa makes you a demon. So when you become a demon, He gives you facility how to act as a demon. And when you become a devotee, He gives you facility how to become a devotee. Kṛṣṇa is very kind, as you want, He also gives you facility. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). But Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up all this nonsense habit of becoming demon. You just surrender unto Me." That's Kṛṣṇa's desire. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. But we don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we surrender to our senses. Mind . . . my mind wants to do something, I do it. That's all. I don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our suffering. Just like a small child, if he obeys the order of the parents, he is happy. If he does not do so, that is another thing. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is our supreme father. If we obey Kṛṣṇa, then we are happy. If we don't obey, then you are unhappy. Is there any difficulty to understand? It is very plain thing. (break) . . . ask for them to fight, Kṛṣṇa arranged for the battle. Arjuna said: "No, I shall not fight. I shall not kill my brother and nephews on the other side." That is Arjuna's manufacturing; that is not Kṛṣṇa's manufacturing. Kṛṣṇa wanted that on the battlefield all the demons should be assembled and they should be killed. That was Kṛṣṇa's desire. *But Arjuna said: "No, they are my kinsmen. They are my brother, grandfather, nephews and son*-in-laws and so on, so on. I cannot kill." Therefore he was given lesson on Bhagavad-gītā , and he was asked at the end, "What you want to do?" Then Arjuna said: "Yes, I shall do what You are asking, that's all." That is finished, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). *This is spiritual life. We want to do something whimsically. Kṛṣṇa says something else. If we accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are perfect, and if you go on doing something whimsically, then you are suffering. But we prefer to act whimsically according to our dictation of the senses. We do not take the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our fall*-down. So our this movement is to teach people how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We are practically trying to be obedient to Kṛṣṇa, and we are preaching others also to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. Simple thing. And how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa? That is also stated: *You come to the temple, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, offer your obeisances, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto : "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says: "Just become My devotee, offer your obeisances to Me, and your coming back to Me is guaranteed." That's all. Very simple thing. If anyone wants to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is very simple. This is the formula; anyone can accept it. If not, if he wants to understand through philosophy, science, everything, there are books, three dozen books he can read. So where is Kṣīrodakśāyī? He wants to . . . Śyāmasundara: The meeting starts at seven, so he isn't here yet. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Śyāmasundara: I don't think he is here yet. It is only twenty*-five past six. *Prabhupāda: Seven? Half*-past seven? *Śyāmasundara: No, the meeting starts at seven. Now it is twenty*-five past six. Prabhupāda: Six. Oh. That's fine. Śyāmasundara: Would you like to rest or take anything before? Prabhupāda: No, no. It's all right. English guest: Your Grace? Must your chanting always be audible? I ask this, because I was chanting in the train. The train makes a noise. Now, I am surrounded by people. Prabhupāda: No? English guest: I can chant audibly? Prabhupāda: Audible . . . if you chant even silently, it is also audible. You have to turn your attention, is it not? English guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Audible, if you don't make any sound, still it is audible. Śyāmasundara: We hear it. English guest: Would it be a good thing to chant audibly on a train full of people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? They will also hear. They will be benefited. Yes. Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do that. What to speak of human being, even animals, the insect, trees, if they hear, they will be benefited. It is so nice. (aside as guests enter) Aiye. Ācchā. (Please come. Okay.) Jaya . Whoever hears, he will be benefited. Just like sunshine—anyone comes in the sunshine, he will be benefited. Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . some people hears it . . . why do some people hear (break) . . . (indistinct) . . .? Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Some people do not like when they hear the mantra . Why is that? *Prabhupāda: They are unfortunate, narādhama . That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This is the description: miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind. This is their title. *Anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he comes to either of these groups—miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind—I mean to say, taken all knowledge. All these descriptions are there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *So anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can very easily estimate their value on this group: miscreants, rascals, lowest of the mankind, and robbed of the knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Maybe they have some academic degrees, but actual knowledge has been taken away by māyā—māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This is their position. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Don't think it very sectarian, but it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no good qualification. He cannot have. Śyāmasundara: Today I had a discussion with a Jewish man in the doctor's office. He said that Christ said in the Bible that . . . he was talking to someone, and he said that, "The beggars . . . don't think you are any better than the beggar or the prostitute." And he wanted to know what the meaning of this was. So I pointed that same thing out, that unless you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, you have no good qualities, whether you are a rich man or a beggar or anything. Prabhupāda: Narādhamāḥ . Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . if Kṛṣṇa knew the ending of the war, why did Arjuna have to fight and kill? Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa is not nonviolent, bogus nonviolent. When there is necessity of fight, there must be fight. Kṛṣṇa has got two mission: *He is calm and merciful to the devotees, and He has to kill the nondevotees. But because He is absolute, either He loves or kills, the effect is the same. That is absolute. Therefore God is good, all*-good. In any circumstances He is good. Even if He kills, the person who is killed, he immediately gets salvation, mukti . English guest: Your Grace, in The *Nectar of Devotion* , in the Introduction, there was an account of Lord Caitanya and a disciple of His, and while he was in the presence of Lord Caitanya, he cast a lustful glance at a woman, and Lord Caitanya rejected him. And afterwards His disciples came to Him and said: "Please forgive this disciple." And Lord Caitanya said: "You may go and forgive him and go and live with him, and I will stay alone." Afterwards, the young man committed suicide, and when Lord Caitanya, who knows everything, said: "It is good. It is very good," this makes me very afraid of committing, in a moment of forgetfulness, a mistake like this. Prabhupāda: The thing is that Lord Caitanya did not like hypocrisy. One should not . . . one should be very much alert against becoming a hypocrite. So this Choṭa Haridāsa, he proved to be a hypocrite. Therefore He was so strict. English guest: What became of him after he committed suicide? Prabhupāda: He went to Vaikuṇṭha. English guest: Went to? Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was Lord Caitanya's associate. English guest: I see. Prabhupāda: He, by mistake, he fallen down. Caitanya Mahāprabhu punished him. But that does not mean he would not go to Vaikuṇṭha. He would go. Just like father punishes his son, that does not mean he is not admitted in the home. So that was an exemplary punishment for the hypocrites, because this Choṭa Haridāsa was in renounced order of life. So for a person who has renounced this world, so even glancing over a woman with lust is also not allowed. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha s devotee, He was very kind. But gṛhastha is not hypocrite. Anyone who has got wife, it is understood he has sex life; so there is no hypocrisy. So one who poses himself, "I am sannyāsī , I am this, I am that," and within heart he is thinking of woman, that is hypocrisy. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not like. English guest: That story is there as a warning for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. For anyone. If you have desire to enjoy, then don't become a sannyāsī , brahmacārī . You become a married man, live peacefully with wife and children. That is allowed. English guest: I see. Prabhupāda: But don't become a hypocrite and live like a brahmacārī and think of women. This hypocrisy is like that. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's stricture. That "Why you are a hypocrisy?" In spiritual life hypocrisy is the worst qualification. Yes. There are four āśramas—brahmacārī āśrama , gṛhastha āśrama , vānaprastha āśrama , sannyāsa āśrama . So you gradually accept the āśramas and prepare yourself for the final . . . (indistinct) But if you stay in one āśrama , you don't become hypocrite in relationship to that āśrama . You do it perfectly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's majority of devotees were gṛhasthas , householder. He was Himself householder. He married twice. But that does not mean when He took sannyāsa He would see His wife. No. That is not allowed. Indian lady guest: I thought that when you commit suicide you deny yourself to Vaikuṇṭha. Is that correct? . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: (explaining) She said if a person commits suicide, he is denied . . . Prabhupāda: Not ordinary person. Just like a person playing in the theatrical stage, he commits suicide, but next moment he goes at home. (laughter) But on the stage he commits suicide. So when Kṛṣṇa comes along with His associates to preach something, so they play like ordinary man, but they are not ordinary men. *All associates of God, they are not ordinary men. Nitya*-siddha : they are eternally perfect. They are eternally perfect. But because God comes to teach us, so His associates also. Just like all the Kṛṣṇa's wifes were kidnapped when Kṛṣṇa departed. Arjuna was bringing them, and they were forcibly taken away by some ruffians. But the purpose was that they came to associate with Kṛṣṇa, so long Kṛṣṇa is here; then they also went to their respective planets. This song is sung by Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura: Śyāmasundara: I'll see if Kṣīrodakśāyī is there downstairs? Prabhupāda: Hmm yes. Let them come. (break) . . . such. That means you are all gentlemen. (laughter) But not a single gentleman. It is to be supposed everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . that means they are not a single gentleman. Aiye . . . (indistinct) . . . (Come . . . (indistinct) . . .) (aside to devotee) You can bring one notebook so that all the gentlemen present, they can leave their names and addresses. (break) . . . movement there is a great potency. Do you realize or not? Indian guest: Of course we do. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is great potency, everywhere. So why not combinedly push on this movement? That is my request. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35). Eh? The Bible society, the Christian missionaries, they spend crores of rupees, but here, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, by one man's attempt it has come to such an extent. Why not combine? What is your opinion about this? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Prāṇa , artha , buddhir , vācā . Śyāmasundara: Should I give a short summary of the activities around the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: In the last year or so it has become increasingly apparent, especially in the West, to all people who have an eye out for these things, that this particular spiritual movement is coming to the forefront of all other spiritual movements in the whole world at this time. It will be the religion of the future, so to speak, especially among the young people. *Of all the movements that have begun in the 50's, 60's, 70's, this movement stands out as the one that is progressing more rapidly and more deep*-rootedly than any other in the whole world, so far as spiritual culture is concerned. We saw on our last world tour, all the way from Africa to India to Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Hawaii . . . everywhere we have got our centers . . . Prabhupāda: Even in Moscow. Śyāmasundara: Even in Moscow we have a half a dozen devotees, Russian boys, who have given up everything . . . Prabhupāda: They are very much suppressed by the government; otherwise the young men are very much eager to take. Śyāmasundara: Despite all difficulties they are chanting sixteen rounds a day, they have stopped eating meat in a country which is practically impossible to find any fruits and vegetables, and gradually our devotees are working there. So everywhere we have been, we have seen this revolution taking place. Beyond any doubt now it comes out that this movement is growing in proportions that no one would have believed a few years back, but which now must be recognized by every intelligent man to be the most powerful force of its kind in the whole world today, because it is genuine, it is authoritative, it is scientific, it is not sentimental or fashionable, but Prabhupāda has made no compromise, any trends of the modern times. He is simply presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is, and because of this is that it is having effect, which has now proven itself all over the world. *So we have seen now there are over a hundred centers, each center like this one. You can go from one center to the next, and you will find the same things going on—the same ārati , the same kīrtana , the same prasāda being served, the same rising early at three*-thirty, four o'clock, the same cleanliness, the same standard is being maintained in a hundred different places around the world, without any formal organization. This is a great . . . industrialists marvel as how Prabhupāda has been able to organize in five years' time a worldwide organization with one hundred branches in which everything is going on smoothly and expansively in every center. So we understand this is because the sincerity of the devotees, and Prabhupāda has been able to instill the philosophy, Vedic philosophy, so that we follow it, and . . . Prabhupāda: Mr. Parik knows how in London it was humbly bigger; they had no place. Now gradually how . . . Mr. Parik: Yes. Within five years' time by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and by your efforts, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: It has got great potency. Now let us have a nice center in London. That is my proposal. Śyāmasundara: London is the world's center. *Prabhupāda: First*-class center. This so important city, and we have no first-class center. Why? There are so many Indians, so many oppos . . . even other . . . those who are opposite, it is open to everyone. We don't make such distinction, that "Hindu," "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Parsi." No. Everyone is welcome. So people are accepting. Now let us have . . . this place is very small. Let us have a very big state temple. What is the difficulty? Mr. Parik: There is more poten . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 8, 1972, London Prabhupāda: Read our *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* . You will get so many ideas of preaching about Caitanya. (break) . . . analysis of the social structure of human society. People do not know it, how to make this social structure. There must be brāhmin , kṣatriya , vaiśya , śūdra . Simply one class, śūdra class, laborer class, will not make perfect. Guest: You can see it yourself. It's perfectly true. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: This country, at the moment my lord . . . with everyone trying to be equal, it just doesn't work. Prabhupāda: No. How you can make it work? You require a head and tail also. We cannot make head and tail equal. Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Simply head will not do, simply tail will not do. We require head and tail both. Then it will be beautiful. So it is actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is solution of all problems. Thinking, thoughtful men should come forward, study it, and try to introduce it in the human society. Otherwise, this piling of bricks and stones will not help. Guest: There is so much wickedness in the world, my lord, I fear that if you try to force anything good, it will be rejected every time. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. (pause) How long I spoke? Śyāmasundara: Nearly one hour. About fifty minutes. Guest: Fantastic. Prabhupāda: So practically there was no question that upstart boy only (laughing). Made some question that had no value. Śyāmasundara: No. Prabhupāda: And the reply was appropriate. Śyāmasundara: Very. He said that he was hearing blasphemy and this and that, so he got what he deserved. Prabhupāda: Blasphemy? Śyāmasundara: He said, yes, he said he had . . . that he thought you were blaspheming God. Prabhupāda: Blasphemy, why? Śyāmasundara: Who knows? According to the Christian point of view, he said. Guest: I wonder what sort of Christian he was. Devotee (1): No Christian. Guest: No, this is it. That is the whole point, isn't it. Devotee (1): Christian by name, and demon by activities. Guest: Yeah. There's a . . . there's two sects in London which fascinate me. I mean, one is called The Pillar of Fire Society, and nobody's ever been able to find out what they mean. And the other is the Limited . . . *The Plymouth Brethren, and they're so . . . the Inner Circle of The Plymouth Brethren. You have to be born into this. This seems to be so stupid. They're so tight, so tight*-reined on, on, on their thinking that, that man could have come from that type of thing. Devotee (1): He didn't seem actually very intelligent. Just, just someone who likes to argue. Revatīnandana Swami hit him with such an answer, he wasn't able to say anything. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Every district has got a town hall, in London. Śyāmasundara: Yes, every small suburb or borough of London, they have a town hall. Actually, we could go from one town hall to the next. Prabhupāda: Here is one town hall. Śyāmasundara: Holborne Town Hall. There's St. Pancras Town Hall, Camden Town Hall. Devotee (2): All big like that? Śyāmasundara: Yeah. All nice. Guest: But quite recently most of the, of the boroughs, for instance, take Kensington . . . Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: . . . Kensington and Chelsea became one, so that you now have four town halls, in effect, within Kensington. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: And the same is with Marylebone. We've got Marylebone, Paddington, Westminster, all part of the Westminster City Council. This was the last Labour government we had. Prabhupāda: This is Camden Town? Śyāmasundara: This is Camden Town. We're right on the border. There is Holborne just across the street. And West . . . no, Westminster over there across the street. Guest: I had to take Dhanañjaya to see that garden I pointed out to you all, on top of the roof. It's a beautiful garden, on the roof. Śyāmasundara: Across the road from the . . . Guest: Yes, from the, across the road from the Town Hall. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: With waterfalls, there's a stream, bridge over it, ducks, dolls . . . Prabhupāda: On the roof? Guest: On the roof my Lord. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Guest: Dhanañjaya refused to believe it, and so I had to take him up there to see if he approved of it for you to have a look at it. Prabhupāda: It is not sold? Guest: Dhanañjaya saw it. Śyāmasundara: And now it's for sale . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . isn't it? Guest: Yes, it is. Yes, but it's far too much. Prabhupāda: So why not go and see? Śyāmasundara: Thirty million pounds. (laughter) Devotee (2): It's a church? Guest: No, no. It's a, opposite Derry & Toms department store. Very big one. Śyāmasundara: A little bit out of our range. (pause) Guest: What do you think of the idea of a central hall, my lord, ten million? Prabhupāda: Well, my admission is we must have the best house. Guest: Well, that's the best one going . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . in London at the moment. Prabhupāda: But it is up to the members of the London temple to secure the money. Śyāmasundara: That one is ten million pounds. Prabhupāda: Why ten million? Twenty million. Any. But we have to work for it. Too much ambition is not good. Guest: Oh no. Prabhupāda: But must be a very nice temple. You try; Kṛṣṇa will help. We have no power. But it is now necessary that we must change to a better place. That it is too much crowded, suffocating. Guest: Sometimes I think the only place you can get to stand downstairs is . . . is on people's heads. It's packed to capacity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we will require immediately. (knock at door) Yes. (female voice in background) Come in. Śyāmasundara: One thing is, I heard this place in Hammersmith will also be occupied for some time. Guest: Well, no. It, it will depend on a purchase. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Guest: And then, uh, they'll have to move out. In the meantime, I don't think they themselves know . . . Prabhupāda: So . . . Guest: . . . if they're going to sell it. Prabhupāda: . . . did you sell some book? Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Devotee (2): Many people are looking at the Bhagavad*-gītā this evening, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Many, many. They like the pictures. *Prabhupāda: There is no such Bhagavad*-gītā in the English language, or any language. *Devotee (2): I'm already arranging with the Collier*-Macmillan that when Bhagavad-gītā comes to England, there will be a big publicity drive . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): . . . for the book, uh, reception of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Are they going to print it here, or print it in the US and bring it on the boat? Devotee (2): Bring it over on the boat. Śyāmasundara: How many copies? *Devotee (2): Many, many. Actually, Collier*-Macmillan, they will distribute them to the bookshops, and that will be very good for us. Śyāmasundara: You do have to give them a little push. Devotee (2): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: We have got our basic principle of Vedic knowledge, so there is no comparison with our edition with any other. Theirs, mental spec . . . how long they will speculate? (pause) (break) Devotee (2): You looked very beautiful this evening. Prabhupāda: I looked? Devotee (2): Yes. (laughter) Guest: It's a beautiful setting. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: In there. It was a very nice hall, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Śyāmasundara: We . . . we should have our Bhāgavata*-saptāha in a nice hall like that. Then we could have . . . how much a night? Devotee (2): This one twenty pounds. *Śyāmasundara: They provided . . . (indistinct) . . . they provided all the sound equipment? (indistinct exchange) That's part of the twenty pounds? Twenty*-four pounds extra? Devotee (2): Four pounds. Śyāmasundara: Four pounds extra. That hall was twenty pounds for one night, plus four pounds for the sound equipment. They provided everything. Prabhupāda: Makes a surplus. Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: Then how the Bhāgavata*-saptāha ? Śyāmasundara: Well their ad . . . their advertising was done mainly on the street, Oxford Street. They didn't approach the Hindi . . . Hindu communities directly. Isn't that it? Devotee (2): Yes. Śyāmasundara: They handed out leaflets, but mostly to English pedestrians on Oxford Street. Devotee (2): The next engagement will be mainly for Indians, next week. Prabhupāda: On the . . . Devotee (2): Seventeenth. Prabhupāda: . . . seventeenth. Guest: That is the Commonwealth Institute. Prabhupāda: Now go and take rest. (break) . . . this, that a man is dead, soul has gone out. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now after few hours millions of germs are coming out. They were not visible when the body was not dead. Now where they were? Revatīnandana: They were within the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, in everything there is living entity. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. But . . . Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time. Śyāmasundara: What, what he was telling me was that this table itself has a jīva soul, as if the table . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Śyāmasundara: . . . is a person. Oh. Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking when I said: "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question. Śyāmasundara: That's what completely threw me off. I thought, oh . . . Revatīnandana: That, that threw us all. Śyāmasundara: That means the table is a person, this is a person . . . Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. That it, it is also proof that every jīva soul is individual, although they are living combinedly. Everything is individual. Revatīnandana: Well that's . . . that's all right then. Now if the . . . Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. We . . . he was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, that small shining particles combine together. Revatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Molecules. So everything is the combined spirit particles. Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us. Everything. Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when that covered, that is called material. Śyāmasundara: Each, each jīva is . . . Prabhupāda: That the sunshine is now covered is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, that is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Revatīnandana: Is that covering . . . Prabhupāda: That covering also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that by the same energy it is disappeared, uncovered. Śyāmasundara: How, how is . . . Prabhupāda: So, the conclusion is, living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material. Revatīnandana: But this, the, the body itself . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . is sort of a, then is a manifestation of ignorance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the . . . Prabhupāda: When this . . . Revatīnandana: . . . then when we see this . . . Prabhupāda: . . . when the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body. Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then, and then I know that I am not this body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. The question is . . . Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance. Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction between the nature of the soul . . . Prabhupāda: Then . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and the nature of the body. Prabhupāda: . . . that, that distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya . Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which distinguish matter and spirit. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva : inconceivable one and different, simultaneously. Śyāmasundara: When you . . . when you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a small living entity, or is a living entity with a small body, that each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Takes a small body made out of matter. Prabhupāda: That, that body means ignorant. Śyāmasundara: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Śarīra avidyā*-jāl . This body is nothing but a network of ignorance. Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all of these smaller cells, I organize them into my big body? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. So try to understand. Covered by something. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The same example, that the sunshine is there; it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally the sunshine is everything. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Is it clear? Śyāmasundara: So how do . . . how do, how do I create the matter . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . that is my body? How do I create the . . . Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are creating. You are creating actually. Śyāmasundara: By eating and . . .? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair, it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing. I am growing. I am creating. They do not know. That is ignorance. Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask us . . . then they ask us . . . Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public. Revatīnandana: Yeah, I know, but then just like somebody . . . Prabhupāda: These are very higher understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: For public should be, "This is matter; this is spirit." That's all. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Revatīnandana: That's right. But one, one of the devotees asked me one time why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernail continues to grow. Prabhupāda: It is nonsense. Never grows. Revatīnandana: Huh? They display like that. They have observed. Prabhupāda: It decomposes. Revatīnandana: But they say the hair continues to come out sometimes from the dead bodies. Prabhupāda: Sometimes . . . Śyāmasundara: You, I think you said once, in answer to that, that sometimes the fan turns a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . little bit after the plug's pulled. Revatīnandana: Yeah, it's a mechanism, bodily mechanism is . . . (indistinct) . . . that's what I said. That some mech . . . material mechanism is still functioning, like a machine. Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe, just like the fan is stopped, but is still moving. Like that. Revatīnandana: Then . . . so that among the different manifestations of energies, it'd be oneness that they are all Kṛṣṇa's energies, but there is also diversities . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya*-bhedābheda. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You cannot clearly distinct. Bheda . It is one and different, at the same time. Revatīnandana: I have been under . . . Prabhupāda: It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that. Śyāmasundara: Some, somehow or other we create our own ignorance, even . . . *Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything spirit, but at the same time not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni ( BG 9.4), "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that? Everything is in Kṛṣṇa, so how Kṛṣṇa is not there? He said that. Revatīnandana: Yeah. You said because you can't see Him there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is matter. Śyāmasundara: That just . . . just I want to clear this up. Just like this table is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one . . . Prabhupāda: Atom, millions of atom. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says: "I am within the matter." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there? Śyāmasundara: Right. Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as a jīva expansion . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . not as plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion. Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also, jīva is also plenary expansion. Revatīnandana: Plenary? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I thought plenary means full expansion? Prabhupāda: Not plenary, that, that is also expansion. It is called vibhināṁśa . Revatīnandana: Yeah. And then . . . *Prabhupāda: Svāṁśa , vibhināṁśa. Viṣṇu*-tattva is svāṁśa. And vibhināṁśa , both of them are part and parcel. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the svāṁśa is plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And vibhināṁśa is part of plenary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom is as vibhināṁśa . Prabhupāda: No, both of them there. Revatīnandana: Both of them? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: In the atom? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone. That, that . . . Prabhupāda: When, whenever that Kṛṣṇa is there the everything must be there. (laughter) *Haṁsadūta: Then in, in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it says that He's present in every atom in His complete fullness. Prabhupāda: That they . . . this brain will not accommodate. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But as soon as the King is there, you must know the King is with his minister, secretaries, everything. How you can say the King is alone there? Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya . Śyāmasundara: But this, this body of a table, there is not, it's not an individual personality, is it? Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: It's not one jīva soul that . . . in charge of this table? Revatīnandana: The table itself is not a person . . . Prabhupāda: No, not . . . Revatīnandana: . . . but within there are many persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that, are in there. Prabhupāda: God is also there. Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa's there. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But actually it is Kṛṣṇa. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: But we cannot see. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ . . . idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ (SB 1.5.20). The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa, but it appears is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya bhedābheda . So unless we accept the thesis and philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different . . . incon . . . for us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable. Acintya . But from theoretical, or by logical conclusion, everything is one, Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Revatīnandana: There's . . . I'd read . . . Prabhupāda: Another, another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair. I am, I am the hair . . . Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like. Revatīnandana: Mmm. Prabhupāda: This is called acintya bhedābheda , inconceivable. Revatīnandana: So that . . . there's a related thing, question, also there's . . . just like there is at, at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction then between these . . . Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear. Revatīnandana: I, I know, but, but still it, not clear, but clearly there is some distinction. Where the distinction is . . . Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction. Revatīnandana: Yes. Simultaneously. Prabhupāda: Simultaneously. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Now, which one we . . . which one accept? Therefore inconceivable. Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They're both . . . everything is related, in Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But there's also, amongst the related things, they are related things because there is also diversity amongst them. Prabhupāda: Hmm. There must be. Revatīnandana: That's right. Now, that is, in preaching in the movement that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living entities . . . Prabhupāda: That there is diversity why not. Revatīnandana: . . . and the brahmajyoti . They are saying . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul, and brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: There is . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the point. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but still, heat is not fire. Revatīnandana: So that . . . Prabhupāda: You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away. Revatīnandana: That's right. So the, the, the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities? Prabhupāda: Yes. Is comparison a small spiritual spark, that's all. We are spark. Revatīnandana: Am I . . . Prabhupāda: So long he does not develop a body . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He wants to enjoy. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, so long he is forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter. Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. That he is spirit, spiritual identity, already. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: But as you are developing material body, similarly, you can develop spiritual body. Revatīnandana: You know you . . . you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the, the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti , he is considered still fallen . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . still fallen. That means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls. You see my question? If, if I go there, I am a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti , I am still fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. That follows? *Prabhupāda: Now, that, that is explained in, in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vibhināṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhināṁśa . You can call it fallen. Revatīnandana: But we usually . . . Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) . . . be separated? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: . . . think of fallen as being forgetful. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also forgetful. That if you are in the brahmajyoti you are forgetful, still. Revatīnandana: But it, it . . . *Prabhupāda: Because, because that, because you are fallen, it is stated in the śāstra , anādṛta*-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Anādṛta . That they, they, they do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. So did they become separated? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Now when, when he . . . Haṁsadūta: And that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when, in the spiritual world everything is composed of cintāmaṇi , cin . . . cintāmaṇi . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spiritual. Haṁsadūta: . . . so, just like here everything is composed of atoms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: So, so suppose someone develops their spiritual form in the spiritual sky, that form, I mean that cintāmaṇi , they are living entities also? Are they . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: . . . conscious entities or, or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy, with Kṛṣṇa, is that an, an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency, or the . . . Prabhupāda: That you consider. Haṁsadūta: Huh? Prabhupāda: That we imagine. Haṁsadūta: I, I, I don't . . . that's what I'm asking for. Or is it, or, but like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form. Prabhupāda: In one sense it is like . . . it is like that, that spiritual molecules. Haṁsadūta: Ohhh. Prabhupāda: Here also spiritual molecules, but here it is called material, because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: Forgetful. Śyāmasundara: They, they are covered by ignorance. Revatīnandana: Now the cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhināṁśa expansion . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . correct? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But he is remembering. Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: He is remembering; therefore he is . . . Prabhupāda: He may not remember. Revatīnandana: Well, he is with Kṛṣṇa, he loves Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is . . . Prabhupāda: Just like a, when they, when cowherd boys playing, that they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know. Revatīnandana: Yeah. But they love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The love is there. Revatīnandana: So we will not say they are then . . . Prabhupāda: So when the love is there, that is spiritual. Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That is not fallen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: They're not separated in any way. Revatīnandana: So . . . Prabhupāda: That, that should be . . . you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Revatīnandana: The, the thing that was bothering me, when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti , if it is jīvas , that they, they are all fallen souls, and I thought so many . . . Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere when Kṛṣṇa is forgotten. That is fallen. Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was then that just like in the room there's so many particles of light, already inconceivable, and then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable it was making my head spin. Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Separated. Separated. Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position. Prabhupāda: But not as fallen as those who are in this material. Revatīnandana: That's right, but still if they go there, they'll sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . come back . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . here again. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, now, they are not pure. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: They are not pure. Devotee: Oh. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhāgavata : aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified. Revatīnandana: Are they, are they less fallen because they are doing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . some service? Prabhupāda: Whether, it is clearly stated . . . Revatīnandana: By lighting it up? *Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence. Aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated, still con . . . Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence, yes. So they're realizing . . . *Prabhupāda: That they, they, they think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says no, it is not yet liberated. Aviśuddha*-buddhayā. Still there is contamination. Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. That there they also, to some extent, they are also fallen. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then you see . . . Prabhupāda: Ananta . Revatīnandana: . . . most souls . . . Prabhupāda: You can . . . you cannot, you cannot say how many. Ananta. Saḥ anantāya kalpanā. Ananta means unlimited number. You, you . . . there is no question of counting. Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya . Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's so great. Prabhupāda: Therefore is acintya , inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is, that is perfection. That's all. You, you can not understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Yes. (laughter) He is so . . . (laughing) And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Jaya . Prabhupāda: That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand. Śyāmasundara: So what to speak of us. Revatīnandana: But the more we understand, the more we can convince . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: . . . others. Prabhupāda: No. That better you understand this, that you cannot understand. Haṁsadūta: The more we understand . . . Prabhupāda: This understanding is better. Revatīnandana: No, but why I said this is that, that . . . Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: . . . that, that, don't, don't . . . Prabhupāda: That I cannot understand. (laughing) This understanding. Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up, and then just simply . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is real understanding, that Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can. Whatever is my . . . my capacity. And that is perfection. Revatīnandana: Yes. But still we deal with this philosophy for . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, on the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says we can understand, then, that's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible. Revatīnandana: But in this life, just like this book, this is for convincing people. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: This book is for convincing men to understand . . . Prabhupāda: Now, still, we understand better than them. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's it. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big, that is understandable even by us, and what to, about these here rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position that, "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him, and what, rascal, you can understand?" (laughter) The attitude should be taken like that. Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says. Prabhupāda: That's it. Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all, and, and we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense people try to understand a thing without . . . by, by inspecting it. Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He has no capacity, still he wants and, and when, and when he is caught, that you have no capacity, "No, I am trying, I am trying." Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: He won't say that, "I have no capacity." Śyāmasundara: (laughing) Or "I will understand." Prabhupāda: "I will understand," that he will say. Śyāmasundara: "In the future, someday I will." Prabhupāda: Obstinacy. Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible, and then when we don't understand . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and then when we don't understand, that's . . . Prabhupāda: As far as we know from sādhu , guru , śāstra . Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. That is our understanding. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Can't extend it any further . . . Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: . . . on our own. Prabhupāda: Don't try to extend on it. Revatīnandana: No. Devotee: Yes. Like that business . . . Revatīnandana: That was speculation. Śyāmasundara: . . . about the soul and the table. It just completely changed everything we've learned so far. Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru , that is my life, that's all. Let me execute that." Revatīnandana: That was . . . that was semantics. That was, that was word usage. That's why we got confused. And that's . . . so now I can clear up the confusion. Thank you very much. All glories to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Haṁsadūta: Uhh, I have one more question, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (aside) On the light. Haṁsadūta: There are in, in our world here, there are material scientists, and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance . . . Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different. Haṁsadūta: I know, but I mean there must be, suppose on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things and . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted, in his prayer, that people . . . "Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part I say I have never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So even Brahmā cannot understand, why . . . what we? He said the other rascals may say . . . uh? Where is that Brahmā prayer? In the first part? Find out. *Śyāmasundara: Brahma*-samhitā. Haṁsadūta: No, that's in the, uh, "Process of Creation," isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no. In Kṛṣṇa book. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa One . Prabhupāda: Now, where is that? Śyāmasundara: Right here. Prabhupāda: This is second part. I see always that volume. Śyāmasundara: Second part? There, there's . . . Volume Two is there. Prabhupāda: No. Volume Two, yes. Śyāmasundara: It's here. Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. That . . . no, no, it is not in Volume Two. Revatīnandana: No, it's in Volume One. Haṁsadūta: In Volume One. Revatīnandana: Volume One, in . . . at, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Revatīnandana: There was . . . when I went to Paris they had gotten all confused. Some were thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā, is not a pure devotee, because . . . Prabhupāda: In one sense not, he is not pure devotee. Revatīnandana: Well, by his behavior sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: Not that behavior . . . (indistinct) . . . because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire. Haṁsadūta: But, but is he still, Prabhupāda . . .? Revatīnandana: Isn't he pure? That, that he said . . . Haṁsadūta: But at the same time he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, as he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Prabhupāda: But Brahmā, it does not mean Brahmā cannot be pure devotee. Revatīnandana: Yeah. Does he become a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Revatīnandana: Otherwise, how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma*-samhitā ? Śyāmasundara: Someone's bringing . . . Revatīnandana: That's what I said. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: Someone is bringing one. A first volume. Revatīnandana: Also, he's the head of our disciplic succession, and I couldn't figure out, that's why I said: "No, he's a pure devotee. How can he be the head of our disciplic succession, he's not a pure devotee?" Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: Bon Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: And Bhavānanda's letter. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This big one, from Bhavānanda's. Prabhupāda: Oh, open it. Where is that gone? Where has taken it? Śyāmasundara: Where? What? Prabhupāda: That knife. Śyāmasundara: There it is. Prabhupāda: Open that Brahmā's prayer. Śyāmasundara: (opening letter) Bhavānanda special. (laughing) Revatīnandana: Chitpur . . . *Prabhupāda: (announcing) Calcutta First Annual Holy Ratha*-yātrā Mahotsava. Revatīnandana: Says Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing. Śyāmasundara: That's not it. Revatīnandana: That's in north Calcutta, huh? Prabhupāda: Ah. Revatīnandana: Chitpur Road, Mahatma Gandhi Road? Śyāmasundara: Chitpur, Mahatma Gandhi Road crossing. Revatīnandana: Yeah, that's in north Calcutta. Devotee: Nine, twelve. Revatīnandana: Oh, here we go. Śyāmasundara: At three p.m. *Prabhupāda: Ah*-hah, is big? Śyāmasundara: First five days' program, maṅgala-ārati . (laughs) Six days of prasāda distribution, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam discourse, slideshows, art, drama, saṅkīrtana , harināma kīrtana . Revatīnandana: What's that show . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Oh, with plan also given. Revatīnandana: Ohh. Śyāmasundara: Sandhyā ārati. Revatīnandana: Oh, they're gonna begin . . . Śyāmasundara: Plus . . . Revatīnandana: . . . they're gonna begin . . . oh, it's long. It's a long route. They're gonna go from Mahatma Gandhi Road down Chitpur Road to Park Street . . . Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting . . . Revatīnandana: . . . and from Park Street all the way to the temple. Śyāmasundara: No, they're starting at the temple. Oh, yeah. Revatīnandana: Starting at the temple? Śyāmasundara: Yes. Revatīnandana: Oh, I see, at the temple. Śyāmasundara: Starting at the temple, instead of Mahatma Gandhi. Revatīnandana: Street, Park Street. Oh, they're going on Chowringhee Road. Prabhupāda: So they are doing something. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, really. That, that'll stand out all over Calcutta. Prabhupāda: You can, you can hang this picture somewhere, permanently. Śyāmasundara: Here in . . . right here in . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. People will see. Śyāmasundara: Oh, downstairs. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are in Calcutta also. Śyāmasundara: Oh, okay, in the hall. We can put it in . . . Prabhupāda: Now you can paste in a board. Śyāmasundara: On a board? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Oh, outside. Prabhupāda: Anywhere, you can take it. But in Calcutta you should also have. Revatīnandana: And the devotees will love to see this. Prabhupāda: Ah. What is the letter? *Śyāmasundara: It says: "Please . . . enclosed please find the Ratha*-yātrā poster. It would appear that it is going to be very successful, and we are expecting a large crowd at the Rādhā-Govinda temple. The program will run from Wednesday the twelfth to Sunday the sixteenth. Each evening we will have a special . . . " (break) *Haṁsadūta: ". . . hand, and searching for Your calves. And yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma*-samhitā , Your body is not material." Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: He says: "Even though You're standing before me, I can't . . ." so who . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: He says: ". . . even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand You." So people they, they think they understand it, only God is nowhere near. (laughing with Prabhupāda) *Śyāmasundara: "As I said in my Brahma*-samhitā ." (laughs) Prabhupāda: Now this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand, what we can understand? So without burdening ourself, jñāne prayāsam . To . . . jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. No one . . . Give up this practice, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva (SB 10.14.3). Just become submissive. Submission means that we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, simply just serve, that's all, and develop your dormant love. That is perfect. Haṁsadūta: You say . . . is that why Kṛṣṇa also says to Arjuna, He says: "What need is there of all this, uh . . ." Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Haṁsadūta: In, in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything." *Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva san*-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām jīvanti (SB 10.14.3). Śyāmasundara: I see that they've got a telephone in Māyāpur now. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: They, they have a telephone in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Oh! Śyāmasundara: Svarupa Ganj 31. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That . . . that is wanted. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. (laughs with Prabhupāda) There's actually a telephone there. Prabhupāda: So many American brains are there, if they do not do like that, then what is the use? Have you seen the letter heading then? Śyāmasundara: Oh, it has a little on the side, Māyāpur Center. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is the same, Calcutta. *Śyāmasundara: Mm*-hm. Prabhupāda: Ah, Māyāpur Center. Sridhama Māyāpur, District Nadia, Phone Svarupa Ganj 31. Śyāmasundara: You can actually telephone them someday. Yeah, if you manage to get through. Prabhupāda: Construct big, big temples, and keep it alive—by kīrtana , by book distribution, by distribution prasāda . "And now we have got big temple, let us eat prasāda and sleep. (laughing) Then temple, will also sleep. That's all." Now we should also keep it in mind, unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center, because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down, that which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he, he could not manage. There was debts, and he became disgusted. You see? Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in, in Germany I have . . . I have for instance in Munchen, in Munich, and in . . . Prabhupāda: There at least must be two, three men. Otherwise don't open. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, there are two or three men, but I visit them regularly. You know I . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You just living . . . keep them alive. Haṁsadūta: That's right, yeah. Prabhupāda: Simply because you have opened a center the business is finished, no. Haṁsadūta: No. I go. We go there . . . Prabhupāda: You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution, saṅkīr . . . busy. That is alive. Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, there are so many Indian temples or churches, they think the church is there, everything is finished. No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale. Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. We . . . we would . . . we would . . . everywhere it's like that. We attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And then more come and come. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Come on. So how you were allowed to enter? Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty. Prabhupāda: Ah. Last time you had difficulty. Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was . . . Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news? Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there. Prabhupāda: Your health is all right? Śivānanda: My health is fine. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities. Yes. Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudāmā was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 9, 1972, London Prabhupāda: . . . instructed, people must know. Then morality, spiritual education, will develop. But if the basic principle is wrong, then everything you have built upon it is wrong. But at the present moment the basic principle of knowledge is this ignorance, that everyone is thinking, "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman." Guest: Hmm. Hmm. Sectionalism. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this . . . first of all one should know that I am neither American nor Englishman nor Indian. I am spirit soul. Then further education can be possible. So we teach from the Bhagavad*-gītā this principle first, the basic principle of spiritual education, to understand that one is not this body, he is different from the . . . actually, everyone can experience if he is a little intelligent. Just like dead man: a dead man is lying, and his relatives crying, "Oh, my father is gone, father is gone, father is gone . . ." So from argumentative point of view I can say: "Why you are crying? Your father is lying here." "No, no, my father is gone." Then you have not seen your father. You have seen this body. So this body is not your father. You have to admit. Therefore, the person whom you saw, the body, that was all based on ignorance. That is going on. Guest: Even Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) got on to this one when she said: "Man is not material; he is spiritual." Even she found that out. Prabhupāda: He's spiritual. Guest (2): It was not very original, after all. Guest: It wasn't. I mean, none of these things are. They have all been said before. Prabhupāda: So we are, first of all, trying to educate people that, "You are not this body." Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: When you understand this principle, that he is not body, then further education on spiritual will begin. Guest: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if I am under the concept of this body, then whole structure is wrong. Everything is wrong. The basic principle is wrong. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if I wanted to do some good to you, and I take your shirt or coat and cleanse it very nicely, and you are hungry, I don't give you any food, is that service? Simply by cleansing the coat? You are not this coat or shirt. You are different from the coat and the shirt. I don't care for you, but I take care of your shirt and coat, is that very good service? Intelligent service? Suppose a man is fallen in the water. One man says: "I will save him," and he jumps in and takes out his coat and shirt and comes out, "I have saved this man." Is that saving? So the whole world is going on to save the coat and shirt, that's all. They do not know what is within the coat and shirt, and they are taking pride, "Oh, I have saved. Here is the coat and shirt." The whole basic principle is wrong. Guest: Of course. Hmm. Prabhupāda: So unless one understands that he is not this coat and shirt, he is beyond this, there is no question of spiritual education or advancement of knowledge. It is all false. Guest: The basis of spiritual education is certainly that man should see himself not as matter but as, as spirit . . . I would entirely agree with you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required. That is at the present moment required, because the whole world is going on under this wrong impression. Guest: Is there not a danger, though, in giving young people the idea that . . . Prabhupāda: This idea . . . Guest: . . . there is too much emphasis on personalization of God . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Guest: . . . in the pictures of . . . Prabhupāda: . . . no question of God in the beginning. We don't say about God. First of all you try to understand yourself, that you are not this body. We shall talk about God later on. We don't talk about God. Try to understand what you are. Are you this body, or something beyond this body? Then God understanding is far off; not in the beginning. Guest: I think what I am getting at is when young people in the West see a picture such as that, or a . . . Prabhupāda: But apart from this picture . . . Guest: They get an association . . . Prabhupāda: Apart from this, sir, when you talk of philosophy, you don't accept this picture. That's it. This is our ultimate. But in the beginning we speak of this philosophy, that you are not this body, and anything you have constructed on the concept of this body will be failure, because it is temporary. The body is temporary, therefore whatever you construct on this bodily concept of life, they are temporary. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ ( BG 2.18). This is the . . . this body is destructible, but the soul within the body, that is eternal. Guest: Well, that is the basis of all philosophy . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . and cannot be refuted. Prabhupāda: Antavanta ime . . . Guest (2): You see it as another West. Do you see my concern that a lot of young people . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Read it. Devotee: Antavanta ime . . . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just hear. Just hear this. Guest: (indistinct) . . . understanding of the movement . . . Devotee: This is the verse, "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary." Prabhupāda: Antavanta ime dehā. Devotee: Oh. Prabhupāda: (to devotee) First of all hear, and then open. Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . papers the initial impact, in the best tradition of the advertising world because in terms of the product . . . first, first its very . . . (indistinct) . . . it has interest, and the second thing about the product, it leaves you into loop of it. So in this version . . . (break) Devotee: "Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasurable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore fight, O descendant of Bharata." Prabhupāda: This is destructible. But the principle within this body, that is not destructible. *This Bhagavad*-gītā is the first book of spiritual understanding. Apart from understanding of God, that is different. First of all, let everyone understand this principle, that he is not this body. Then others, understanding, will follow easily. Otherwise it is entangled. Mixing. *Guest: When it comes to studying the Bhagavad*-gītā , this is within the scope of your acolytes who have got the time and the stimulus to do this. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is reading. Guest: But, ah . . . Prabhupāda: We have got class, daily. Daily. Guest: And how you are able to reach a wider public with these ideas in a more condensed form? Are you . . . *Prabhupāda: He is opening schools. Bhagavad*-gītā , we shall send so many teachers. That is not difficult. We are not getting support, sufficient; *otherwise we can help everyone. As soon as you talk of Bhagavad*-gītā , they take it, "Oh, it is some Hindu God." Like that. Reject it. Biased. What can be done? But actually this is the knowledge. Everyone is standing on a false platform, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. But the platform is false, basically. Revatīnandana: So far the young people go, the minute we can get to them, they are immediately very interested. Guest: Hmm. *Revatīnandana: They like to know what is in this Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: The other day we went to see a school . . . Guest: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The small children, oh, they inquired very diligently. What about the questions they said? Guest: Hmm. Devotee: They were asking questions, ah, that, ah . . . this is young children, ten, eight, thirteen, fourteen, seventeen, ah . . . Prabhupāda: Within twelve years. They were all young, very young. Devotee: The ask questions like, "If the human being is the most advanced species of life, then why is it that the human culture is in so much trouble, confused, whereas the animals, or lesser species, are living in peace?" Prabhupāda: Very intelligent question. Devotee: All, every question was . . . Prabhupāda: That means the whole human civilization is challenged, that we have advanced human civilization, but we are less than animal. We cannot live even peacefully. Devotee: After the program . . . Prabhupāda: This is a very nice question. Guest (3): The answer is, we have much to learn from animals. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, we take animals lower than human being. But what you have done better than the animals? This is the question. We claim that we are master of the animals, but you are less than animal. How one who is less than animal, he can master over the animal? Guest: Well, there is a lot of talk of ecology, isn't it, these days, and pollution, but I think we haven't realized the wider interpretation of these terms . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, the thing is that time is now ripe when actual spiritual education should be given. If not to all . . . spiritual education is not meant for all. Just like, according to Bhagavad*-gītā and our Vedic civilization, there are four classes of men: the brāhmin , the kṣatriya , the vaiśya and the śūdra . The brāhmin means the most intellectual person—morally, spiritually and everything, scientifically, philosophically. That is a class. Next class the politicians, administrators, taking charge of the state, how to protect you. Ah, kṣatriya . *Kṣatriya means one who defends you from being hurt. Enemy is coming to hurt you, and king is giving you protection. They are called kṣatriyas . This is the meaning of kṣatriya . Brāhmin means one who knows the Absolute Truth. This brāhmin , kṣatriya and the vaiśya . Vaiśya means productive, pounds*-shillings-pence. Because they are mercantile class. And śūdra , ordinary worker. So this education . . . now these four classes of men should cooperate. Just like in my body there is brain, there is hand, there is belly and there is leg. Importance of leg is not so serious as the head. The importance of hand is not so serious as the head. You can cut your hand, you live. But if I cut your head, then you cannot live. But when we cooperate, the head is as important as the leg. If there is no leg, simply head, then you are imperfect. The four classes of men are there by nature. They should cooperate. But at the present moment the intellectual class of men, they are spoiling their energy in a different way. Therefore they should be . . . (break) (end) Interview -- August 11, 1972, London Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization. Journalist (1): Not simply because of the increased population? Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolish. Journalist (1): That's foolish? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons. Journalist (1): Oh, so someone . . . someone who's foolish . . . Prabhupāda: No. Even there is . . . just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There, there are millions and trillions . . . *There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, 8,000,000 species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being, out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized . . . so*-called civilized population. Journalist (1): And that's because, you would say, that we have the wrong . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I, I . . . we, we, we are all, we are are believer in God. You see? So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population, but it is the question of demonic civilization. Journalist (2): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That, and then demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of this world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food . . . Journalist (2): And you think there's enough food . . . Prabhupāda: There is enough so far as . . . (indistinct) . . . but we have made artificial division, "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy is everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy. Journalist (2): But the values of Western civilization have made that . . . Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial: "This is Africa," "This is America," "This is Europe . . ." Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got, have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities—not only human beings; birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, transcendental communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder should stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasāda . Journalist (1): That's a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization . . . Prabhupāda: Because . . . that is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: " Yow ! Yow ! Yow ! Why you are coming? Why you are coming?" Just like here—here, everywhere—the immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming . . . Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as . . . so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is . . . Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like you English people. They were welcome. Lord Christ was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit. And he is worshiped. That is Western civilization. Journalist (2): That's really what I was going to ask you. You must find life difficult, preaching the values of brotherhood in a society . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Natural brotherhood. Just like in a family, naturally, a father has got ten sons, they are brothers. But one son is intriguing how to take the whole property. Yes. That is going on. That is demonic. If every one of the father's sons thinks that, "Father is one, and father's property equally should be distributed . . ." But no. One cunning son is simply intriguing, "How to occupy the whole estate for me." Yes. That is going on all over the world. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Journalist (1): By Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you are educated that God is one, Father is one, we are all sons, then the whole solution is made. Journalist (2): Because there's no need for any one person to have any more than anybody else. Prabhupāda: No. God has given everything. God has given everything, but if one party, becoming demonically powerful, he occupies everything, the others suffer. Journalist (2): Yes. But the difficulty is . . . and that's a very optimistic view of human nature. Prabhupāda: That is civilization. Journalist (2): But, no . . . Prabhupāda: That is not optimist; that is proper civilization. Journalist (2): Some people might say, who weren't perhaps as convinced as you . . . Prabhupāda: "Some people" means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see? Journalist (1): He rejects. *Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool*-headed that, "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this, if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right. There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so much excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization. Journalist (2): Yes. I know you define that as civilization. But I was trying to suggest that some societies, and indeed some individual personalities, are avaricious, seemingly by nature. How do you . . . well, graft and greed and . . . Revatīnandana: Sometimes that is their natural position. Journalist (2): (indistinct) . . . disease. *Prabhupāda: It is a disease. Yes. Disease. Lust and greediness. There are three qualities in the world, material world. One is called sattva*-guṇa , one is called rajo-guṇa , another is called tamo-guṇa . Goodness. Rajo-guṇa is passion, and tamo-guṇa is darkness. So at the present moment these two guṇas , qualities, darkness and passion, are prevalent. Goodness gone. Goodness. And the darkness and passion, the symptoms are greediness and lust. People are being educated to become greedy and lusty. Yes. That's all. Nobody is being educated to become good. So what is the use of these rascal universities? If they are producing greedy and lusty people, then what is the use of education? Vidyā dadāti namratā . Education means everyone should be gentleman. That is education. And if you produce lusty and greedy people, there is no . . . this is animal education. The animals are lusty and greedy. (break) . . . (indistinct) Journalist (2): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir? Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone? Journalist (2): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about . . . Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire, and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, koto caturānana , mari mari jāota (Śrīla Vidyāpati). There are so many Brahmās come also, and they die. So this kind of empirical, imperial onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were . . . just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay. Journalist (2): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way. Prabhupāda: If you cannot . . . if you remain demon, then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become . . . there are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness. That Hitler will come and this will come, that will . . . they will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way. Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst . . . Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization. Journalist (2): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not? Journalist (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that, then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that? Journalist (2): Well nothing, but that . . . Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," what is the gain? Journalist (2): I've never been able to understand what the gain was either. Prabhupāda: Now just try to understand: Christian religion is good, provided the followers of the Christian are actually following. But they are not following. They are not following. They are simply artificially stamping, "I am Christian." In the Christian religion the first order is "Thou shall not kill." But the Christians are very expert in killing. So who is Christian? First of all let me see. Their First Commandment is, Lord Jesus Christ, that "Thou shall not kill." Now, everyone is killing, and still he is Christian. So this kind of Christian religion or Hindu religion, what will be the benefit? If you don't follow, simply you stamp yourself that, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim . . ." That is going on. Nobody is Christian. Nobody is Hindu. Nobody is Muslim. Everyone is demon. Everyone is demon! That is our proposal. There is no Christian, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim. That is our proposal. Journalist (1): Except people who have accepted the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, presumably. That . . . Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. First of all, you were talking about the Christian religion. I say that Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion, there may be different religions, but what is the aim of religion? That you should understand. The aim of religion is to know God. If you profess some religion, but if I ask you what is God, if you cannot explain, then what is the use of your becoming religious? Journalist (2): Probably none. But people like to have, or seem to like to have, a religion. Prabhupāda: They don't like. They don't like God. They don't like God. As soon as somebody speaks of God, they say: "They are crazy." So actually there is no Christian, no Hindu, no Muslim. All demons. That's all. Journalist (1): How do you stop that? Prabhupāda: Well, become religious. If you are really Christian, that is all right. But you are not Christian, because you are violating the orders of Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed his life, and he says that he atoned for your sins, but you are not stopping your sinful life, and still you are claiming to be Christian. The fun is going on. Yes. Actually there is no Christian. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice religion. Yes. Journalist (2): Do you think that you can help large numbers of people in this country understand that . . . Prabhupāda: I can help everyone, provided he takes my help. If you refuse my help, how can I help you? Journalist (2): No, I'm merely suggesting that you would . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. What is our . . .? I am helping. I am asking people to become God conscious. But if you refuse to become God conscious, how can I help you? Journalist (2): But to become God conscious, do you think they have to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No. You become devotee of God. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then . . . you have got some idea of God? Journalist (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Or not? Journalist (1): You could accept the idea of God in another manner than your Church? Prabhupāda: Suppose . . . we are giving Kṛṣṇa, presenting Kṛṣṇa, as God, and we are giving God's name, address, place, everything. Yes. Yes. (laughter) Don't laugh; it is serious. If you refuse to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God, give me His address, name and occupation. Can you give me? Journalist (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? You take from me. Why you are refusing? If you do not know, then take it from me. And if you know better than me, you give it to me. You do not know; still you will not accept. Then what is your position? That you don't want to know God. Journalist (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: When I say: "Do you know what is God?" you say: "No." When I present God, you say: "Why shall I accept? It is your God." At least we have got some God. But you know . . . do not know what is God. So my position is better than you. Journalist (2): Well, if you accept. Again, it's a slight digression. Prabhupāda: No. You have no idea of God. You cannot give name, address, occupation of God. I can give. Journalist (2): Do you need to have a name and address and occupation for God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like when you come, I ask you what you are: "What is your name? What is your address? What is occupation?" This is the first introduction. If I do not know your name, address, occupation, then what is the use of talking with you? Journalist (2): Well, I would . . . again, it's a very interesting concept, because often in Western civilization God is defined more as an idea than as a . . . something . . . Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. God is fact. God is a person like you and me. You can talk with Him, you can see Him. That is God. Not idea. We are talking with Kṛṣṇa. We are taking His instruction and abiding by His order. It is not an idea; it is fact! That is God. Journalist (2): That's a difficult thing for people . . . Prabhupāda: Not difficult thing. If you do not take, it is difficult. If you accept, there is no difficulty. They are accepting. There is no difficulty. They have also belonged to Western country. They are happy. And ask him. Journalist (2): I don't dispute that they are, but you said that they are . . . Prabhupāda: I am saying we'll give you all information of God. Journalist (2): Yes. I'm not suggesting that they're not happy, nor that your followers aren't convinced that you're right. Prabhupāda: So you can become also happy, you can know also God—provided you take. If you don't take, how can I help? Journalist (2): What I'm suggesting is, I mean trying to suggest is that for a large number of people . . . Prabhupāda: Well, large number . . . large number . . . when, when you speak of something good, you cannot expect many. Just like if you want to sell diamond, you cannot expect that the whole population of England will purchase it. When there is question of diamond, the customer also must be very rich. Similarly, to understand God is not so difficult or . . . easy job. Only the fortunate, pious, nice people can understand God. Not ordinary. Journalist (2): And only get to work at it, find the time to try it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But we are giving facilities to everyone to understand God. That is our mission. (knock on door) Journalist (2): But it does require a certain price for them to pay as individuals. Prabhupāda: No price. Simply to become sincere. Journalist (2): To sincerely try to find Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are sincerely anxious to know God, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. Tatra laulyam eka*-mūlyam. One must be very much anxious that, "I must know God." Then God is revealed. There is no question of paying so much money. Our transaction in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no monetary transaction. I did not pay anything to them, neither they are paying to me. It is a question of understanding. Journalist (2): Yes. I'm only suggesting that you were saying already that only people who were kind or gentle perhaps would find it easy to start. There are obviously, as you were saying, lots of people who are not so kind or gentle, and presumably would find it more difficult. Prabhupāda: No. They may not be gentle, but we are gentle. Please come to us and learn. They may not be gentle. We can create gentle, provided he follows. Journalist (2): Is that one single . . . Dhanañjaya: (background talk) Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) . . . the BBC One, Radio. They're . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can also note—this is common, talking of God. Journalist (2): One last question. Is there a single, simple . . . (indistinct) . . . that you could give to people who don't know anything about Kṛṣṇa consciousness to help them to understand it? Is there one simple, single . . . Prabhupāda: Very simple: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. If God is proprietor, He must be enjoyer. And God is the supreme friend. Journalist (2): Thank you very much. How long're you going to be . . .? Prabhupāda: If you simply understand these three things. This is fact. Journalist (2): God is the proprietor. Prabhupāda: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. Journalist (2): Enjoyer. Prabhupāda: And God is the supreme friend. Now if you analyze . . . now you cannot say that you are the proprietor of this land. Somebody else is. Just like the land was there before your birth, and the land will remain there after your death, so during your span of life you are simply claiming, "This is mine." But before your birth, after your death, it belongs to somebody else, the supreme proprietor. And because He is the supreme proprietor, He is the supreme enjoyer. And He is the supreme friend in this way, that He is giving all necessities of life to everyone. Nobody can be better friend than God. Journalist (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: So these three things, if you try to understand—that God is the proprietor, God is the supreme friend and God is the supreme enjoyer, then all problems solved. Journalist (2): Thank you. Journalist (3): May I come in another queue for BBC Radio 4, just to tell me in fact what is the purpose of your visit to London? Prabhupāda: To teach you these things, as we were just talking with your friend, that God is proprietor, God is friend of everyone and God is the supreme enjoyer. Journalist (3): I understand in fact that you are a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. What does this mean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist (3): Can you tell me what it means? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Devotee of God. Journalist (3): But what is the extent of your purity? Prabhupāda: What is that? Journalist (3): What how . . . how, what do you mean by being pure? Does it mean that you have seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. I am seeing every moment. And if you want to see, I can show you. (laughter) Journalist (3): Please do. Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not so easy. It is not so cheap that you want to see, immediately I can show you. You have to become student like him. Then you can see. Journalist (3): I would have to become a member of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: Not only member; a student like him. There are many members, they pay some money. But they are learning according to my direction. Journalist (3): Can you tell me what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: First of all you have understood this thing or not? If you want to see God, you have to become a student like him. Are you prepared to that? Journalist (3): I haven't got the opportunity to become a student. Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of seeing God. Don't talk of seeing God. God seeing is not so cheap. You talk about seeing God. If you want to see God, then you have (to) become a student how to see God. Journalist (3): Can I see God by becoming a Christian, Christian? Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was speaking, that if you are true Christian, you will see God. But who is true Christian let me see first of all. Journalist (3): Have you got a particular mission for London? Prabhupāda: I have particular mission for the whole world. Why London? London is included in the world. Journalist (3): What is that mission? Prabhupāda: That mission is to make you understand what is God. You cannot say what is God. If I ask you, can you say what is God? Journalist (3): I can't. Can you? Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn. Journalist (3): Can you say what is God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Therefore you have to become student. Journalist (3): Tell me what is God. Prabhupāda: First of all, you become a student; otherwise you'll not be understand . . . that I say: "God is the supreme enjoyer, God is the supreme proprietor." That I have already told. Can you understand this? Can you refute this, that God is not the supreme proprietor? Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want? Prabhupāda: No, why you are going away? You are talking one thing and then going another thing. Journalist (3): I have to go, I'm afraid. Prabhupāda: No, no. Then I cannot waste my time. You question one thing. Make a solution. Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want to become students? Prabhupāda: Tell him, Bhagavān. Bhagavān: We want everyone to become our students. No one has a good understanding of what is God. Journalist (3): I can't get this on the microphone. Prabhupāda: You can take instruction from the students who are actually trying to understand God. Journalist (3): I read somewhere that possibly you wanted to convert people who were politicians and businessmen. Why? Prabhupāda: Who said? Where you have got this idea that I am trying to convert politicians? Where? Journalist (3): Well, I read it somewhere. In a newspaper. Prabhupāda: Where is that newspaper? This is not a fact. You are telling something which is not a fact. Journalist (3): You want to convert everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone requires to understand God. Why politicians and newspapermen? Everyone. God is for everyone. Everyone requires . . . the human life is meant for understanding God. Why politicians and businessmen? Without knowing God, he cannot be happy, whatever he may be. Journalist (3): Do you think if people had a deeper understanding of God, a spiritual consciousness . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he will be happy. Journalist (3): Do you think it would solve the problems of . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Certainly. Journalist (3): Which problems? Prabhupāda: All problems. Whatever problems you have got. Social, political, religious, cultural, everything. Journalist (3): The problems that exist in Ireland and India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. You simply give education to understand what is God, then all problems will be solved. Journalist (3): What about yourself? How long have you had this understanding and awareness of God? Prabhupāda: How long you want? (laughter) I have had this understanding from my birth. My father was God conscious; he taught me how to become God conscious. Journalist (3): And you are in fact the spiritual leader of these students. What does that mean? Prabhupāda: Huh? Because I want to teach them what is God. If anyone is interested with God, I can teach him. Journalist (3): How long does it take? Prabhupāda: It takes one second. Journalist (3): Well, can we do it? Prabhupāda: Yes. You accept, surrender to God, then you become God conscious. Journalist (3): And what happens to me then? *Prabhupāda: Then you become happy. And the Bhagavad*-gītā says that God said that, "You surrender unto Me, I give you protection from all sinful reaction." That is the statement of God. So if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God that, "God, so long I was forgotten about You. Now I surrender unto You. You do whatever You like," everything is all right. Journalist (3): Thank you. Thank you for your time. (break) Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: We are simply presenting the fact that everything belongs to God. God is the supreme friend and God is the maintainer of everyone, everything, and He is the supreme enjoyer. These three things if we understand, then the whole problem is solved. Now, I say that God is the proprietor. Now you refute. Those who will not accept, that "God is not proprietor, I am the proprietor," this requires discussion. How you become proprietor? *Bhagavad*-gītā says, God says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram ( BG 5.29). I am not manufacturing this. It is stated in the śāstra . God is the supreme enjoyer. He is the proprietor. He should be enjoyer. Just like here, if I am the proprietor of a factory, so the profit should come to me; similarly, if God is the proprietor of everything, then we cannot enjoy anything without the sanction of God. We therefore eat prasāda . We know that the fruit, flowers or grains or milk, whatever we are offering to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given us. You cannot manufacture these things, nice oranges, in factory. You cannot manufacture rice or wheat. Actually, God has given. That is God consciousness. Anything, even those who are eating animals, they cannot manufacture animals in the factory. That is also God's creation. *So in the Vedas it is said, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), "That one supreme living being is supplying food or necessities of life to all living entities." That's a fact. He is the maintainer. He is the giver of food. We are simply handling. That's all. Everything. Even this house or your car, everything, the material ingredients are supplied by God. The intelligence is also given by God. So by God*-given intelligence, by God-given ingredients, you are preparing something, and you are claiming that, "It is mine." Why? Suppose if I give somebody intelligence, "You make this table like this," I give ingredients, I give him money, then after the table is manufactured, if the carpenter says: "It is mine," is that proper? "Sir, I have given you money, I have given you the wood, I have given you the intelligence, I have maintained you. How it belongs to you?" So this is going on. Everything God's, and we are claiming "mine." Ahaṁ mameti , janasya moho 'yam (SB 5.5.8). This is called illusion. I am not the proprietor, but I am thinking I am. This is called illusion. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to remove this illusion, to accept the real fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is nothing that we . . . (indistinct) . . . manufactured artificially. To come to your real position. Just like a madman has got in some consciousness, he's thinking so many crazy ways. That sort of consciousness will not help us. If we actually come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is our perfection. (break) God is the proprietor, God is the enjoyer and God is the maintainer. Three things. So our this movement is nothing new. It is oldest and authorized. So now if we can push on this movement, that is the greatest welfare activity in the human . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- August 12, 1972, London *Prabhupāda: . . . all*-round. Not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion." Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic . . . less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that? Devotee: Yes, I've heard. Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all realize, then challenge. *(break) Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ (Hitopadeśa). That is the special distinction, that their life, human life, must be based on dharma , religion. They have rejected dharma . That is another type of frustration, because the so*-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. *And therefore people become . . . revolted, "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people, they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink gāñjā . You have been Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple? Hamsadutta: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen that gosāi ? Hamsadutta: Is he still there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhā*-Dāmodara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to Rādhā-Dāmodara, managing. Api cet su-durācāro ( BG 9.30). ( japa ) (break) . . . should think that we have got to say so many things to the people, huh, about this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute. Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them. *Prabhupāda: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so*-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be . . . that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness—all round, all included. Revatīnandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. (aside) That is Indian śaṅkha ? Woman: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That in your hand, bangle, white bangle. Woman: Ah, elephant? Prabhupāda: It is called śaṅkha . It is called śaṅkha . From conchshell. It is made from conchshell. Where you have purchased it? Woman: I'm afraid this is ivory. Prabhupāda: Ivory? Oh. There is similar made from conchshell. Woman: Yes, I had those in Allahabad. I was going there to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Allahabad? Conch, from conchshell? It is especially used in Bengal. Woman: Yes *Prabhupāda: A woman . . . that is an auspicious sign that she is with her husband, to have conchshell bangle. Śaṅkha*-sārī . A woman dressed śaṅkha and sārī , śaṅkha-sārī . They don't require any other ornament. One nice sārī and śaṅkha . That is Indian conception of woman having husband. *That is distinction between widow and a woman having husband. Widow will not accept sārī . All finished. Vedic culture, widow should finish her life after having the husband. Saha*-gamana. Satī . Yes. (break) . . . have got enough to preach. People will like it. Devotee: Yes, I think so. Yes. I think we have enough. *Prabhupāda: They'll like. Enough ingredients to preach. Simply one has to become intelligent how to express. The, what is called, outlines of thought are already there. You read one line, you can speak half an hour. They are so full of meaning—provided you can express the meanings. So we are not reading all the lines. We are going quickly from one śloka to another. Otherwise, if we explained each line of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Just like my Guru Mahārāja explained the first śloka for three months in Dhaka. *(break) . . . after this verse, he explained for three months. Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained ātmārāma-śloka in sixty*-four ways. That is described in Teachings of Lord Caitanya . Sixty-four ways. *Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained in nine ways. He did not touch on those nine ways. Setting aside those nine ways, personally He explained in sixty*-four ways. Formerly such scholars were there, such religious persons were there. Therefore people were happy. What these rascals speak? Now there is Freud's philosophy and Darwin's theory. Revatīnandana: It's nice, because here people will listen. In India they won't listen, and in America they can't listen; they're so degraded. (break) (end) Conversation -- August 13, 1972, London Revatīnandana: So their residence place is not very far away, and she was curious. She came over a few days ago to find out more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sister Mary: I've seen a few about the street. Prabhupāda: Where? Sister Mary: We live down there, you see, and we've seen them several times in the street singing, and asked them what you're doing, really. Prabhupāda: (aside) You can keep it here. It may fall down. No. So do you know something about our movement? Sister Mary: I've been told something about it, the other day. Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We . . . we are preaching love of God. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following; we simply want to see that he has love for God. *Our bhāgavata*-dharma defines that that is first-class religion, following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ( SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religion if, by following that, one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our . . . Sister Mary: So you don't try to convert people from other religions? Prabhupāda: No. Sister Mary: One can be Christian and . . . Prabhupāda: Any way. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. Sister Mary: Yes. So we're doing the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless. Sister Mary: How does he know? Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there. Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression, "Loving God or loving Mammon." Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression "Love God or love Mammon." Prabhupāda: That says, or . . . everyone says different way. "Mammon" or "dog" is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: Yugāyitaṁ , "Every moment is just like twelve years," cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam , "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam , śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ , "Oh, I find everything is vacant," govinda viraheṇa me , "without God, without . . ." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just like Lord Jesus Christ: he never advised to . . . for economic development, for industrial development or this and that, so many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that, "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is the test. So we say that you follow any religious path—that doesn't matter—we want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one . . . a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another—because his aim is education. So if one is serious about loving God, then it doesn't matter in which way he learns that art. It doesn't matter. He won't discriminate, "Oh, I must learn this art from this university." No. Any university. It doesn't matter. So our principle is that we are teaching love of God. So actually, those who are after God, they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is in America, in Russia, in Africa or Canada. It doesn't matter. They are coming. And the method is simple: chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name, you chant. We preach this. We don't say that you chant "Kṛṣṇa." If you have got any name, God's name, then chant that. Sister Mary: We say Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said: "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that, "Chant the holy name of God." And if you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, "Kṛṣṇa." We don't say Kṛṣṇa. *Lord Caitanya says in each and every name of God . . . there are many names of God. But in each and every name of God, the full potency of God is there. So . . . and there is no hard*-and-fast rule for chanting the holy name of God. Anywhere, at anytime, anyone, in any circumstances, he can chant. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: "My Lord, You are so merciful that in this age . . ." Why . . .? Not in this age; every age. "You are always in full potency in Your name. And I can associate with You simply by chanting Your holy name. But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that." A simple thing, to chant the name. God has become so kind, "You simply chant My name." But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that. Now, these people are being taught . . . they have got this bead bag. I have also got. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Now where is the loss? If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the loss? And where is the want of time? They are walking on the street, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare." I am sitting here, and now I'm talking with you. As soon as I finish talking, I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? But ask people to chant the holy name of God, he won't accept. Unfortunate. And such simple thing. He hasn't got to go to church, to temple, or to go to hell or heaven. In whatever condition he is, he can chant holy name of God. But they're so unfortunate, they won't accept this theory. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā . "So God is so merciful, but I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant His holy name." There is no charges, there is no fee, there is no loss. If there is some gain, why not try for it? And the gain is there. That you practically see. Because these boys from Europe, America and other places, they were . . . I do not wish to discuss. (laughter) But just see the process now. Not the process one has . . . other has to calculate. Then calculate themself. Yes. There is so much profit. Sister Mary: We see that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is a sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is . . . they are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult that, "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that, "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement: "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done? Sister Mary: Not to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Hey? Sister Mary: Don't worry about that. Prabhupāda: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse: "No." Sister Mary: When you chant, Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: . . . do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things? Prabhupāda: Other things? Sister Mary: Well, many things require your concentration. Prabhupāda: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration. Sister Mary: You see, two . . . two things . . . you can't just . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately. Sister Mary: But you can't read or talk to someone. Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught . . . in our educational system they chant . . . what is that? That . . .? Pahara pahara. *Indian man: Pahara . Alphabet, a*-i-e. (indistinct commenting) Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing, they learn, "a, b, c," like that. "Two plus two equal to four." We did it in our childhood. One boy chants like that, "Two plus two equal to four." And we shall repeat, "Two plus two equal to four." So repeating three times, I understand two plus two equal to four. Sister Mary: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart? Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not? Sister Mary: It goes deeper and deeper? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart? If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names goes to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart. Sister Mary: I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer . . . Prabhupāda: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. Sister Mary: In the heart. Prabhupāda: It will always remain in your heart. Sister Mary: Always going on. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. It remains in your heart. Not only my heart; others' heart. They also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not in my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me . . . we . . . last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka , they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain. Revatīnandana: In Manchester there's a big park . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously, it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all. Revatīnandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a . . . almost like japa beads. Show him. Sister Mary: You see, here. Revatīnandana: They're almost like japa mālā. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Sister Mary: We do it in some . . . together, even in the Orthodox Church. And we take turns doing two hundred. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sister Mary: And . . . these are for counting. Prabhupāda: That is nice. We also do the same thing. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sister Mary: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the wording? Sister Mary: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." Prabhupāda: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God . . ." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Sister Mary: It's a little prayer. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Sister Mary: And they also pray to the mother of God. Prabhupāda: Sinful? "We are sinful"? Revatīnandana: Hm? Prabhupāda: You say "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like? Haṁsadūta: "Have mercy . . ." Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us." Haṁsadūta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer. Prabhupāda: Oh! Sister Mary: And you say it in your own language. There are many people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the . . . by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God? Sister Mary: Well, mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it? *Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of . . . so . . . that is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa*-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped that, "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya : "You are the most munificent of all incarnation because You are distributing love of God," kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne : "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer. Sister Mary: Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you? Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent. Sister Mary: What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant? Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different. Sister Mary: Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed, doesn't it? Revatīnandana: What will the mind be doing? Haṁsadūta: While chanting. Revatīnandana: What should the mind be doing? Prabhupāda: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is . . . that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect. Sister Mary: It's very difficult to think of God. *Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said: One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible. Sister Mary: There's a lot more sins than just those four things. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities. Sister Mary: If you're irritated with somebody . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin. Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . Sister Mary: Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin. Prabhupāda: Irritated . . . if your mind is in peace . . . if you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter) Dog unnecessarily will talk: " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk—sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this? Sister Mary: Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian . . . Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh? Haṁsadūta: Animal. Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life? Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son? Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing. (guests enter) *Prabhupāda: Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come . . . you can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years, there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the . . . (indistinct) . . . stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Why? You can come here, this side. Haṁsadūta: You can sit here. *Prabhupāda: Yeṣāṁ anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. "Devil citing scripture." A devil cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ācārya , Sanātana Gosvāmī, he says that, "Don't hear scriptures from the devil." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa). "If a devil's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say: "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is devil or angel. It doesn't matter," No! The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue, of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. You cannot drink the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. *So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a devil. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle is, āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya . He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so*-called preaching? That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all condition, if we, with faith and love, we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified. *Revatīnandana: That line, jāya sakal'bipod bhaktivinod bolen jakhon o nām gāy (Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Bol 3). Prabhupāda: O nām gāy , yes. Revatīnandana: All obstacles will go away if you chant the holy name? *Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad*-gītā , there are four classes of men who deride at God and four classes of men who approaches God. Atheist class of men, who are always engaged in sinful activities and therefore fools, they don't believe in the next life. Therefore they are fools. There is next life. They say: "Oh, we don't care for next life. Let us do whatever we like." That is a foolish proposition. Because there is next life. Just like a man, he becomes irresponsible. He says: "I don't care for government or law. I can do whatever I like." That means he's risking his life. As soon as he'll be arrested, he'll be punished. Therefore he's mūḍha , rascal. *Anyone who is defying the kingdom of God, he's a rascal. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Narādhamāḥ is lowest of the mankind. God consciousness is meant for human beings, and if a person defies God, then he's the lowest of the mankind. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā : his knowledge has been plundered by the illusory energy. He may be academically a very big title holder, but if he's not God conscious, then his knowledge has been taken away. Real knowledge has been taken away. Asuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. These are the symptoms of the atheist class of men. So on the whole, at the present moment, God consciousness must be spread if actually they want peace and prosperity. And those who are in charge of religion . . . religion means God consciousness. Everyone should combine to spread God consciousness. That is the immediate necessity at the present moment. Sister Mary: People find it very difficult today . . . Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example: three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained. Sister Mary: For people outside. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sister Mary: For people outside. Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now. Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal, fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach. Sister Mary: Well, you can't have any . . . (indistinct) . . . until you are purified. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Purification will go on. Suppose you are . . . just like we are holding, what I . . . I began this propaganda in the Western countries, I was sitting in a park, Tompkinsons? What is that? Revatīnandana: Tompkins Square. Prabhupāda: Tompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare . . . for three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically he started my European movement. He started first. Guest: Have you been harassed in London at all? Prabhupāda: I don't think, but these are Londoners; they know better than me. Devotee: Yes, we have been harassed many times. We have been arrested and left from the prison about twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the night, and then we were far from that place to here. Guest: When was that? Revatīnandana: The last time was a week ago. (laughs) Guest: Would you say that the Americans are generally less tolerant than Londoners to you or more tolerant? Revatīnandana: America or here? Guest: Yes. Which is the worst and which is the better? Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think. Devotee: More tolerant. (laughs) America is more tolerant. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Guest: America is more tolerant? Devotee: But they're not arresting now, you see, and wherever they go, they chant freely. But here, almost every week we are arrested on the streets and harassed. Guest: Is it because . . . possibly because you are less well known over here than in America? Revatīnandana: No. Because a very conservative legal system and obsolete laws, like that. Sister Mary: What law can arrest you? Devotee: Well, we fought this out in the court here, and the magistrate allowed that we can chant. There is no law who can stop the chanting. But the police, authorities, they say: "Well, you are obstructing the traffic." And under that we are arrested. Prabhupāda: They can find out anything. Devotee: An excuse. It's an excuse . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: "Blocking the traffic," "Disturbing the peace . . ." Devotee: They simply come and arrest, and that is . . . Haṁsadūta: Anyway, the original purpose of America was to have religious freedom. Therefore they left England. Revatīnandana: There is constitutional guarantee . . . Guest: (indistinct) . . . the point. Haṁsadūta: So they still have some respect for people who are trying to glorify God. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In America, in every court case we win. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Well, we lost here several times. Devotee: Last year, when we went to the police authorities for our procession here, and we wanted to make three rathas , and the police officer, he was so envious, he said: "No. There is no law we can put three rathas on the street." We said: "What is the harm? Won't you give us protection?" "So many people will be dying and killed under the ratha . If the ratha is so big and all that, people will be killed." I said: "They are big all over the world. This is for God consciousness." Prabhupāda: So many people are dying by motor accidents, but do they stop motorcar? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Guest: Do you think the situation will get better in London. Devotee: Yes. Guest: You do? Revatīnandana: Wherever there is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa going on, things will get better. Guest: Say, if the average London policeman, if he could be convinced to chant. *Revatīnandana: Convinced? No. Some of them are less hostile, some of them more hostile, naturally. We can chant on one side of Oxford Street, but we cannot chant on the other side of the street because there's two different police departments. It's like that. There is no hard*-and-fast way to figure it out. You just have to try it and see. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: One night at Piccadilly Circus we were eight, and four were arrested, and four other people, no, they let them go. So I said: "No, I was arrested." (laughter) When they went to the court, Prabhupāda, they got one pound fine each . . . they were altogether eight, and four were arrested. They also doing the same offense. It is same offense. So he said, "All right, let them go." *Guest: Can I ask about your . . . (indistinct) . . . about growth? . . . (indistinct) . . . recruiting, I suppose. How . . . can I ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy*-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week? Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand. (laughter) Guest: I'm talking about in Britain. Revatīnandana: Same thing. Yes, every few days somebody joins. Guest: Can you tell me how many of those actually stay? *Haṁsadūta: Oh, ninety*-nine percent stay. Guest: And what is the figure likely to be? Five a week? Ten a week? Prabhupāda: We don't keep any statistic, but actually, the fact is that I started alone; now we are eight thousand. Guest: I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that. Eight thousand who are . . . Haṁsadūta: Five years ago, Prabhupāda, he came to New York with some . . . these karatālas , and he began alone by sitting in a park underneath a tree chanting this very same Hare Kṛṣṇa, which you see the boys on Oxford Street chanting. And now there are eight thousand students all over the world, and approximately a hundred centers. At that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't even have a place for himself. But now he has a place in every major city. Guest: You used the word "student" here. You're referring to this as . . . yourself as student . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, because it's an education. This is a spiritual education. Guest: This doesn't tie up with the figure that I've been given, though, 150. There must be more than that. Haṁsadūta: No, we're talking about around the world. Guest: But you would accept there's 150? Haṁsadūta: Yes, in England. Guest: No, five years ago. Prabhupāda: In 1966. Haṁsadūta: In 1966. Sister Mary: Seventy centers on six continents. Prabhupāda: No, England we started in 1968. Devotee: That 150 is those who have fully dedicated their life, but there are thousands who are followers and admirers who have not joined here. Prabhupāda: They are admirers. Devotee: They are admirers, and they are . . . there are thousands of . . . but they all come . . . (indistinct) Sister Mary: But it's encouraging people to chant the name of God in their own religion. Revatīnandana: Yes. Sister Mary: You don't have to change your religion. Like we are Christians. In the Orthodox Church, they say that . . . (indistinct) Guest: To be a member you don't have to change your religion? Is this a fact? Sister Mary: To be a member here, a member here, you do, don't you? Or do you? Revatīnandana: To live in this temple you have to take up fully our principles and take up our activities of preaching work and like that. But to practice these things outside, even in one's own religion, without changing the basis of his belief, he can simply devote himself to God in these ways. And if one is young and not so attached, he can take it up fully. And if not, he can take it up in part, or he can take it up . . . in any religious system there are names of God. You simply chant it. Guest: (indistinct) . . . Sister Mary's an associate member, if you like. Sister Mary: Oh, I'm only just asking about it. Guest: I didn't mean you personally, I meant . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: Everybody's a member . . . Guest: If you're a member, you have to practice the whole thing, or accept that, obviously. But what you're saying is if you're . . . Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member of this movement. But some people have forgotten. Our movement is to remind them. Every living being is by nature a servant of God. Now people are forgetting. We want them to remember. We don't care for some difference of technique in worship. We want people to take up the business of chanting the names of God. Prabhupāda: Just as in the same family some of the sons have forgotten God . . . huh . . . father and some of them remember, but both of them member of the same family. Because he has forgotten his father does not mean that he is not son. He still remains. So actually, everyone is a member of God's family. That is our vision. Not only human being, but animals also. We therefore consider animals also brothers. We don't support animal killing. Sister Mary: It shows in your four principles. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: We follow strictly these four principles. Just like this—no animal killing, no eating of animal foodstuffs, including meat, fish and eggs; don't take any kind of intoxicant, even tea, coffee. Guest: You're still on number one? Revatīnandana: No, that's number two. Guest: Let me get number one first. No animal killing, yes? Revatīnandana: No animal slaughter, no taking of animal foodstuffs, including meat, fish or eggs. Guest: No animal foodstuff. Sister Mary: Not milk. Revatīnandana: Milk we have, surely. We don't have to kill the animal to take the milk. Meat, fish and eggs we don't take. No intoxications of any kind. Guest: You're on number two now. Revatīnandana: Number two. No intoxication. That includes even tea, coffee, cigarettes, very strictly. No gambling. Guest: You're on three now. Revatīnandana: Number three, no gambling. And number four, no illicit sex life. That means no sex life whatsoever outside of marriage. And in marriage, sex life is to beget children and raise them to love God. So we follow these four principles very strictly. In this way we purify our lives, and then we can develop spiritual emotion of love of God. Guest: Uh, let's look at the . . . I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, etc., and no intoxicants. Revatīnandana: These are four "no's." Guest: Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat? Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts—all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs. Guest: Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth. Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasāda , or Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Guest: I'm sorry? Prabhupāda: Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it. Guest: Have you any view on food that's been . . . (indistinct) . . . preservatives, insecticide, sort of thing? Haṁsadūta: No, our point is to get the nicest foodstuff available and prepare it nicely for Kṛṣṇa, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute it. Guest: Ah ah ah. Haṁsadūta: That is the point. Guest: Right. Now . . . Sister Mary: We've received it from God, a part of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: I quite appreciate with respect the clause on alcohol. I'm puzzled, though, why anything on cigarettes. I'm puzzled about tea and coffee, frankly. Revatīnandana: Stimulants and depressants of all kinds—mild or strong—doesn't make any difference. You're taking a stimulant or a depressant, or a cigarette or a drink of coffee, it will agitate your mind with a chemical. Guest: So what can you drink? Revatīnandana: Milk, water, fruit juices, so many things. Haṁsadūta: If you don't get cigarettes, you won't die. If you don't get cigarettes . . . (indistinct) Guest: Oh, no, no. I wouldn't question that. Haṁsadūta: That's the point. They are unnecessary, artificial. Sister Mary: We're so used to tea and coffee. Guest: Yes. Sister Mary: We don't count them as . . . (indistinct) . . . any more, but they are. Guest: Huh huh huh. Gambling I understand. Broadly speaking, the attitude to sex and so on is really fundamentally the Catholic attitude, isn't it? Sister Mary: Except the Catholic church allows tea. Guest: I was talking about basic, those who are involved in . . . Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body, is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life—reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that . . . therefore we use our energy in that direction. Sister Mary: So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure. Guest: Can I ask . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure. Yes. Revatīnandana: She made this nice observation, that this is not to stop our enjoying, but this is higher enjoyment. Guest: Yeah. Revatīnandana: You see what I mean? Guest: May I ask how a lot of you . . . (indistinct) . . . when you come into this movement, you come in from on the outside, in the material world and so on, do you, as some monks do in monasteries, do you give all your wealth, all your possessions, everything, as it were, to the movement? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Why? Revatīnandana: Not necessarily. But generally yes. Because we're coming here to serve Kṛṣṇa, and we understand that everything is Kṛṣṇa's. So whatever we come with is automatically Kṛṣṇa's, so we use it in His service. *Prabhupāda: Actually, we don't possess anything. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. What we possess, so*-called possession, that is illegal. Because I cannot possess your property. I can possess your property by stealing, not by fair dealings. Guest: So it's a voluntary thing, really? Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: I can possess it if you give it to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. So that is our philosophy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). Whatever God has given you, you possess. Don't try to possess others' property. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam . Everything belongs to God, so whatever God gives me, "You enjoy it," I take it. I don't encroach upon others' property. Sister Mary: You use your own responsible. Prabhupāda: Heh? Sister Mary: You use your own, responsible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I should feel grateful: "Oh, God has given me this thing, so whatever utility is there, first of all I must offer to God." "God has given me this grain to eat, so I must cook and first of all offer to God, and then I shall eat." This is feeling gratitude, grateful. Sister Mary: Would you use, say, cars if you were given one? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: If someone gives us an automobile, would we use it? Revatīnandana: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Revatīnandana: Just like this tape recorder. Prabhupāda: Because originally, everything is possession of God. Sister Mary: If you had a big house, a rich house, you would use that? Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall turn into temple. Revatīnandana: Immediately. Prabhupāda: Immediately. (laughter) We are searching after. If you can give, it will be very much . . . Sister Mary: To put beautiful things in it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherever we shall go, we cannot go without God. So if we get a palatial house, immediately make a very gorgeous, nice temple, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. That's all. Sister Mary: . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . very beautiful . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We can utilize anything, because everything is belonging to God. So as soon as we get something, we utilize it for God. That is our philosophy. Sister Mary: Who controls . . . if one of the members becomes grasping, wants things for himself . . .? Prabhupāda: No, what . . . we are therefore teaching. We are therefore teaching. Members are gradually learning how to sacrifice for God. So when he is completely trained up, he knows that nothing belongs to him; everything belongs to God. Therefore whatever he possesses, it must be utilized for God's purposes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. We take it for granted, and that is a fact. Everything belongs to God. God, whatever God has given me for my use, so I must use it, first of all expressing my gratitude to God, "O God, You are so kind that You have given me this. So first of all You taste it. Then I'll eat." This is our philosophy. Sister Mary: What about pleasures like listening to music? Prabhupāda: Yes, we chant the glories of God. Sister Mary: Could you listen to other peoples' music? Prabhupāda: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu (SB 7.5.23). Chanting and hearing about God, that is music. Sister Mary: Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that? Prabhupāda: Which one? Revatīnandana: Beethoven's symphony. That means classical Western music. They make some music. Prabhupāda: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection. Revatīnandana: But there may be no reference to God in it. Prabhupāda: No, then we don't hear. We reject. Sister Mary: Inspired by God, given by God. Prabhupāda: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property, but do you like to go to the prison house? We say: "Oh, everything belongs to government." We are not so liberal that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prison house." Guest: I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Sister Mary: I said everything is good because it belongs to God, but you do choose, in fact, or you wouldn't choose to waste your time when you should be doing something else. Prabhupāda: But for God's cause we can go. Just like these boys are sometimes arrested and put into jail. That is God's cause. But they are not prepared to go to the jail by pickpocketing. That is not their mission. They are executing God's business, and if somebody puts him into jail, "All right. It is God's desire. That's all." Revatīnandana: The point is that there must be direct connection with God. If God's name is there, if God's service is there, if God's form is there, then we are interested. Prabhupāda: Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe (Brs 1.2.255). Everything must be related with God. Sister Mary: Well, if you're relaxing, if you need to relax, and you sit and listen to some music, it doesn't say "Praise God" all the time, but in fact is, because it's beautiful. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept anything beautiful without God. Without God, everything is ugly to us. Everything ugly. Sister Mary: So you have to bless it by offering it to God first. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Revatīnandana: Just like we have so many beautiful songs and melodies and everything. They're very nice. And we sing these songs. They are glorifying the Lord. And we enjoy like that. Music is there, everything is there, but because it is directly in the devotional service of God, therefore there is this bhakti , there is this devotion there, devotion to God. Without that, everything becomes void, tasteless. Guest: Can I get one point straight? . . . (indistinct) . . . is the Beethoven symphony all right provided it is blessed as an object and a work of art? Is it then all right? Or is it not all right because it doesn't use religious themes? Haṁsadūta: Originally, music and art were employed only to glorify the Lord in the scripture and . . . *Prabhupāda: In Sāma*-veda , Sāma-veda . Haṁsadūta: Gradually, if you study art history, music history, God was left out. Just like you will see landscapes, and there's nothing in there about God. It was left out. But originally the landscape, there was some depiction of the activities of God or His representative. Guest: So a Beethoven symphony is not all right. Haṁsadūta: It's not a matter of Beethoven symphony. Art means to glorify God. If God is in the . . . just like this picture. There is a mountain, there is sky, but what is the point there? The point is Kṛṣṇa. He has a point. There's a book, but the point is the spiritual master. Here's a landscape, but the point is Kṛṣṇa. Guest: The original point I'm trying to get at . . . Haṁsadūta: If there is some music, you must hear something about God's activity. Guest: But suppose that was a beautiful landscape on its own, just the landscape, then it's worthless? Revatīnandana: Limited and temporary enjoyment only. Limited and temporary enjoyment. Guest: But you accept that the temporary enjoyment is there, would you? *Revatīnandana: Yes. And limited and temporary. It's called capala*-sukha , flickering. Prabhupāda: Now, even there was no God's picture, one who is God conscious, he can see in the natural scenery presentation, he can see, "Oh, how God is artistic. How He has manufactured this flower, how He has painted, how He has made this tree." So that is higher intelligence. That is higher intelligence. Because without God, there can be nothing existing. So one has to learn how to see God in everything. That is another thing. That is higher status. Yes. But in the lower status of God consciousness one is advised that you should not see anything without God. But in the higher status, there is nothing in the world which is without God. *But we should not imitate the higher status of life in the lower status of our position. Otherwise, one who has learned about God, he can see God in this flower—actually how God's hand has worked out this nice flower. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā God says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). Just like I am drinking water. In the taste of the water I'll see God. God says, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the taste of the water." And actually, that taste cannot be created by man. The taste in the water, that is God's gift. So as soon as I taste the water, immediately I should remember, "Oh, here is God." Sister Mary: So we believe that the Holy Spirit empowers artists and composers. And therefore we would say that a symphony was a creation of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation . . . in everything there is hand of God. Therefore one who has learned to see everything in connection with God, he sees God everywhere, every moment. (knock) Yes? *Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana cchurita (Bs. 5.38). When one has developed love of God, he sees God everywhere, always. Because everything is creation of God, so he can find out, "Here is my Lord," "Here is my Lord," "Here is my Lord." That is the highest state of loving God. He cannot see anything without connection of God. Sister Mary: It's a matter of attitude who created these things. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Sister Mary: It's a matter of your attitude. Prabhupāda: Not attitude; development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial, but it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her . . . within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing; *it was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, unless Kṛṣṇa was there within? Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty*-four hours. Sister Mary: Do you believe you're drawing it out from people, if they hear it? If they hear this? Prabhupāda: Yes. As they hear, they became purified, and that dormant consciousness becomes awakened. Yes. Awakened. That chance we are giving. We are chanting, and others are hearing. By this process, chanting and hearing, both of us will be benefited, awakening our original God consciousness. Revatīnandana: At the stage of awakening, when you're waking up, when you're becoming cured of the diseased condition, you sometimes have to restrict your diet. Later on, when you are healthy, you can take all kinds of foodstuffs in the proper way. But while you're getting over a disease you have to restrict your diet. Therefore we hear things that are directly concerned with Kṛṣṇa's name, form, activities. Later on, then we'll be able to see God in a flower, God in everywhere. Otherwise we'll see the flower however we enjoy a flower, because we're not at that healthy stage. So therefore there are regulations that we follow for curing the disease. That means for a little while we restrict the diet. Then when we're healthy . . . Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God; they are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he puts it in the pocket. How . . . you see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but the use is different. Guest: What's your view, if I may ask, on . . . for emotion in . . . of an ideal, a Christian ideal and so on, through the media? Will you use television and radio to condemn things like racial intolerance and the Vietnam War? Do you believe that you should become involved in these things? Could you issue a statement and say that the movement condemns so and so? Do you believe getting into anything in the world spectrum to comment on things? Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Revatīnandana: His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world. There's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination . . . do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination? Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems; we take the . . . just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain. Sister Mary: You go down to the heart of the matter. Devotee: To the root cause. Sister Mary: They're only symptoms. Prabhupāda: These are all different symptoms of the society's being materially diseased. Sister Mary: Society isn't saved in a month by individuals . . . (indistinct) . . . the reality in each person. It's more than an example. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . pour the water to the root cause and in every leaf it goes. Guest: So the answer is you do not comment on it. Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā (SB 5.18.12). If one is godless, he cannot have any good qualities. Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. Right? So one doctor who's less intelligent says: "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. The sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says: "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all . . . there are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective, and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully, because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they . . . with one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail. Guest: But you will not comment on the details themselves. Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work. Sister Mary: Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment? To say that the whole of mankind is one, and we're treating the disease in the human heart, and this is . . . (indistinct) . . . man to man? You can't do it by an overall sitting on a post. Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. I just wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Sister Mary: We condemn wars, but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say: "God, stop this war." Revatīnandana: There's a saying: "Charity begins at home." (break) (end) Conversation -- September 9, 1972, Pittsburgh Yaśomatīnandana: We got garlanded every block, so many garlands were there it was hard to redistribute again. Devotee: If you need help. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many people live in Surat, approximately? Yaśomatīnandana: Seven, seven I mean (break) . . . five . . . but it is getting bigger and its bigger than Baroda. It's larger than Baroda in population. Prabhupāda: . . . so it is bigger than in population? Than Baroda. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: And I like that river. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that river? Yaśomatīnandana: Tāpi. Prabhupāda: Tāpi Yaśomatīnandana: Tāpi. Tāpi. Prabhupāda: Very nice river. Yaśomatīnandana: It's very nice river. Prabhupāda: By the riverside there are so many lands. Yaśomatīnandana: Uhu, yea, but the thing is that Prabhupāda that this river is sometimes very dangerous. Prabhupāda: Ah, over flooding? *Yaśomatīnandana: Now I think, I don’t think it will over flood because they have got so many projects, dams and things like that but it used to over*-flood very often. Every five or six years . . . (indistinct) . . . but that over flooding would affect the whole city, so it doesn’t matt . . . head out the other bank of the city . . . that the waters would rush into the whole city and. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How many miles away from Bombay? Yaśomatīnandana: 150. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: 150 miles? Yaśomatīnandana: 150 miles. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's far. Yaśomatīnandana: Surat is developing also, in other ways also like aerodromic industries. Prabhupāda: It is a rich city. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes . . . actually. Prabhupāda: We went to Bardoli. Yaśomatīnandana: Bardoli? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, my, actually my native place belongs to Chaltan. It is only 5 miles from Bardoli. Prabhupāda: Bardoli is also very nice place. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes . . . I have always felt that the people of Surat district have . . . (indistinct) . . . than most of the people, you know I have seen . . . they have been very friendly and simple mostly. Prabhupāda: I think that in Gujarat there are two or three cities, Baroda, Surat, Ahmadābād. Is that? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes these are the three major cities . . . Rājkot, Dvārakā, Porbandar, Jāmnagar . . . but they are not very big cities . . . in Śaurāṣṭra. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are a lot of Gujarati's here in this country. Prabhupāda: Oh yea, all over over. Yaśomatīnandana: Now all over . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Gujaratis and Sindhis first, first Sindhis. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then Gujaratis, then Punjabis and then all others. Bengalis . . . (indistinct) . . . Sindhis they can go any part of the world. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, they have become more adventurous now. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not all . . . but all are allowed. There are. Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Therefore they are very rich communities. Yaśomatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Next to Sindhi, I think Gujarati. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Next Punjabi. Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Sindhi's and Gujarati's they go mostly for business. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Punjabis they go. Part, part . . . partly for business partly for working. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Have you ever been to London ghettos? London Indian ghettos? Near London. They say they are living very bad, in London, near London. Prabhupāda: Yes, London there are many Indians, although they are in London they live like Indians. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, very similar. In Russell Square there is one hostel called, " Indian Students Hostel ". Prabhupāda: You have been in London? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And there, (laughter) Oh, we stayed about, about a couple of nights called, " Indian Students Hostel ". That is for transit passengers who just stopped by in London for a couple of days, and then. So we stayed there for. And we were served the . . . all the our Indian reception. Prabhupāda: Oh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was very nice. Yaśomatīnandana: But. Prabhupāda: There are many Indian hostels, many. Yaśomatīnandana: It is so surprising, that I met a girl in . . . who was married to an Indian boy. She stayed there for 17 years, and she did not know a word of English. She was. Prabhupāda: Yes there are many. Yaśomatīnandana: So. Prabhupāda: I know one Maharashtrian lady she is running one hotel for the last 22 years, no 22 years was in 1968, must be 25 years. She invited me I went to her house, she is running one Maharashtrian hotel. She does not know English, she does not know. A little, little." . . . "Yes . . . yes no, very good." That's all. (laughter). Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, excuse me what would you like for lunch? Prabhupāda: Dal and capātīs , would be nice. Devotee: You will be going back to India soon? Yaśomatīnandana: Uh? (laughter) if Prabhupāda wants me to go . . . I want to work for a while so that I can have enough money, to start. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes get some money. Devotee: If he needs a sannyāsī , I will go. Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Yaśomatīnandana: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: To Surat? Prabhupāda: We require many men. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands to make this propaganda all over the world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Unlimited number we want. It is so important moment. Any number of men we cannot imagine. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We should take over the world . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya . Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amader desher brahmana gulo shobai bole Sharma ar baki gulo shob Singh. Ek jon ache Nagalok. Oi pahade. Ota mane shob Christian hoye geche karon oi missionary onek gulo ashe. Assam e ar amader oi . . . (indistinct) . . . districte. (The brāhmaṇas in our land have the title, Sharma and others have the title Singh. There is also one Nagalok, in the hills. They have all become Christians because many missionaries used to visit there. In Assam, in our . . . (indistinct) . . . district.) Prabhupāda: Tar mane . . . taderke ghenna koreche. Tomader jat. (That means . . . they had been treated with disgust. By your people.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amader mane Swami khub bodo mistake hoye geche. Bodo mane . . . ( Swāmī , we have made a big mistake actually. By big I mean . . .) Prabhupāda: Tader ghenna koreche . . . (indistinct) . . . Vaishnava der kriparthe (They had been treated with disgust . . . (indistinct) . . . Vaiśnava's mercy) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Svarūpa Dāmodara: There was a mistake in our dealing with the our leaders. They did not even allowed to come to the house, such a mistake. So they became all Christians. Prabhupāda: No, they may not be allowed to enter the house but why they should not be elevated? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. This was a mistake done by the . . . our leaders. Yaśomatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard that in south India the Christian missionaries, even the brāhmins are converted into Christians and how, you know, that the Christian priest would go into the house of a brāhmin and put a block of bread into his well and then the brāhmin would be debarred from his caste because the brāhmins were, you know. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . also. Yaśomatīnandana: So that is why he was forced to accept Christianity because he would not have any position in his camp. (cut) (end) Conversation -- September 12, 1972, Dallas (conversation about teaching children) Child: "A" that's a long "a". Prabhupāda: "O" "a" Child: "O" "a" Prabhupāda: Got it? Child: Yea I was learning it before with the Sanskrit teacher. Prabhupāda: Now you do not know? Child: I know some of them now, "a" "a" Prabhupāda: Then write. Child: Here? It doesn’t . . . Prabhupāda: You're . . . (indistinct) . . . just write here. "ta". By moving his hand, when it is perfect the next. So you should practice for two three hours daily and similarly each and every student should be . . . (indistinct) . . . and the class will go on for three hours. Unless he's perfect in writing the next letter should not be taught. This is the process. So you will have to fill up this and see it to teacher, show it to the teacher whether it is perfect or not. This is the way, similarly ABCD, 1 2 3, everything should be written and you must know this is 1, this is 2, and at the end of the class they should chant. Just like two multiplied by two equal to four, chant it. Everybody: Two multiplied by two is equal to four. Prabhupāda: Two multiplied by three equal to six. Everybody: Two multiplied by three equal to six. Prabhupāda: Two multiplied by four equal to eight. Everybody: Two multiplied by four equal to eight. Child: Eight. Prabhupāda: Like that, up to 10. Two into two, two into three, two into four, they should learn, immediately they will say. So that when they multiply by practice immediately two into two is four. At the end of the class this should be, chant for half an hour. Chanting, multiplications. Practice it, similarly daily two, three pages every each student should write and the teacher should see whether it is right and sign, yes it is all right. The next lesson, the next lesson, they should learn ABCD, and the Sanskrit, this a , ā , i , ī , u , ū , ṛ , ṟ , ḷ , e , ai , o , au , ka , kha , ga , gha , it is all there written. What is the difficulty? Is that all right? So use the Sanskrit, who is teaching you? Who is teaching English eh? Who is teaching English the same way. If somebody will teach mathematics, who will teach maths. Eh? That's all right. So one teaches English one teaches Sanskrit and one teaches mathematics. Each student should be taught and practised. So as I have called him and I can call another and another and another and another and 10 students I can take a lesson. Any another, one finishes he goes, he . . . (indistinct) . . . some exercise, engage in exercise for two hours three hours, so in this way. Is that all right? Devotee: Yes. He has a question to ask. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He has a question to ask. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): The others when they are. Prabhupāda: Come here, not from backside. Devotee (2): The other children, while, while one child is teaching the other children will, how will they be engaged? Devotee: Practice. Devotee (2): But how? Prabhupāda: Practice. Devotee (2): How? All the other children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): In other words you will be teaching one child at a time. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee (2): And then the others they are also practising during this time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he has been given lesson, he’ll go on practising, the next student comes, practising, other practising others. Mātājī: He is asking me while the first one is being taught. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mātājī: The others should practice what they have already learned? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Devotee (2): And . . . (indistinct) . . . children will they be in the same class as the older children? Prabhupāda: No, suppose he has learned a , ā , so he is elder so he can be given i , ī , u , ū , further instruction. The others should be given the beginning instruction. Devotee: So for instance, everybody takes Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone should. Devotee: Everyone take Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be taught Sanskrit, everyone should be taught English. Give him lessons and let him practice. Let another come, give him lesson and then practically . . . Devotee: The younger children they are just learning the ABC and the others are learning further. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: The older ones. Prabhupāda: Yes. So everyone will be engaged. Devotee: Ah. Prabhupāda: Simply one teachers is taking care of 10, that's all. Devotee (2): In the English class you would like it if the older students studied your books and learned all the vocabulary and all the . . . how to. At the same time understand your books. Is that how you would have the English class? Prabhupāda: No. They must have first, first reading books some passive reading. Just like A N D and, that's effective, all of a sudden if you give big words, they must know select A N D and, A N D and, A C T act, like that. A B act, A C act, A D and A T at, like that, that involves A and another alphabet, A B act, A C act in this way let them practice to compound syllable that A C T act, A double D add, A P apt, in this way. What is that? *Mātājī: Previously we had the children writing purports to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam lectures in the morning, the older children. They know how to write but their vocabulary has to be increased, so we’ve been taking vocabulary . . . I’ve been giving vocabulary words, 20, 25 vocabulary and they have been using it in their purports. We are encouraging them in reading and writing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's all right but they must know how to make syllables. The first book of reading they should be given, just like ABCD. Devotee: Yeah primary. Prabhupāda: Try to form words from, ABCD. That's all, I don’t think immediately our books, will not be suitable. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: They can hear or after hearing they can write in their own words. But unless they know how to setup letters, how they’ll write? So this first lesson should be given all in Sanskrit. English. Mātājī: Each student's progress is individual. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): No matter what age. Prabhupāda: No. That doesn’t matter, whatever he learns he must learn it positively. Not that because he has advanced in age therefore he should be advanced. No. He should be given chance, it doesn’t matter what is the age. But everyone should be engaged, children they should be given exercise. The teachers should, so that they are not idly sitting or talking. If they are therefore playing no, in the classroom no play. They must be engaged in reading or writing. Devotee: Stick, each one carries a . . . Prabhupāda: Yes and you must have stick. Devotee (2): What is that? Devotee: A big stick Prabhupāda: Yes, two sticks can be used. One for head and one for hands. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Those who are too naughty on the head. I tell you, anyone who is very naughty, on the head. And one who is less naughty on the hand. So do good. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: And the stick is for the teacher. If the teacher cannot teach nicely then I shall. Everybody: (laughter) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: How much time shall we give the boys to run and jump in the park? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Should they have time to run and jump in the park every day? And how much? Prabhupāda: Say one hour. Devotee: One hour. Devotee (4): That's our own park too. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Our park. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can play, jump, chant Hare Krishna, dance. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: Play like cowherds boy for one hour. Children: (laughter) Prabhupāda: So they should be engaged three hours in the morning. When class begins? Mātājī: 9.15. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: 9.15. Prabhupāda: 9.15 to a half past 12, in the morning and in the evening from 3 to 6. They must have, they must have enough engagement in class. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I would like to . . . saṅkīrtana activities, for the children? Prabhupāda: No. They may perform for saṅkīrtana here, it is temple, they can dance. They should not go outside. That is their waste of time. Devotee (3): Yea. Prabhupāda: So they should not. Devotee: See too many. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: See too many others. Prabhupāda: No no. They should not go outside. They should have their saṅkīrtana in the . . . according to our ārati and especially one hour jumping and playing in the park. Devotee (2): Should they attend all the adult classes, all the adult scripture classes, as well? Prabhupāda: They will not like to. Devotee (2): When the teachers. Prabhupāda: But they can join the chanting and dancing, at all the chanting and dancing. They can sit down, they may hear and join the chanting and dancing. Not . . . they can join adult class but they may not create disturbance. Mātājī: Some of the girls are getting attracted to dressing their Deities and attending to their Deities, bathing. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mātājī: Most of the girls are attracted to . . . Prabhupāda: That is extra, not in the school, not in the school. Mātājī: But they can do that. Prabhupāda: They can do, extra. They can paint pictures or do that, extra. But they must give their . . . everyday they must be prepared to do their lessons nicely. It is not that they’re not like to look . . . (indistinct) . . . you give them task, you write 10 pages like this. They must present 10 pages, not that they wasted time dressing the Deities and did not like that. No. That 10 pages must be presented otherwise they will be broken . . . (indistinct) . . . restricting, I tell you break their heads, there is no need of keeping such heads. Child 2: Huh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mātājī: (laughs). Prabhupāda: Strictly they must present 10 pages, daily, otherwise break their heads, I tell you. So? You all remember if you don’t do your tasks daily nicely your heads will be broken. Devotee: So listen boys, Śrīla Prabhupāda is talking. Prabhupāda: And they should be must be strictly disciplined. They cannot make any howling bowling within the class. They must be engaged, three hours in the morning. Devotee: They must sit properly and . . . Prabhupāda: Sit properly or not that doesn’t matter . . . there, sit there . . . but they must work properly. Devotee: Work. Devotee (2): The little children they become very restless sometimes when they sit for a long time. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): The little children they become very restless. Prabhupāda: That will take time, you will have to teach them, to sit nicely. Three hours they can sit. They cannot be restless, they must work three hours. Otherwise how they will be trained up? Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we engage the children when we are chanting japa in the morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): They are playing when we chant japa they play, how can we engage them? Early morning when we chant japa . Prabhupāda: You can, can ask them, if not let them play. After attending our maṅgala-ārati , they should be given to eat something, prasādam , little little. Always they play there is no harm, you chant but they must attend their class regularly. Is that alright? Follow this, so I’ll come again tomorrow and see how . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Jaya . (break) (end) Conversation A -- September 13, 1972, Dallas *Prabhupāda: God and we living entities all of us are persons, individual persons . . . (indistinct) . . . so all of us living entities person*-to-person, God is the supreme person and the living entities are, just like in a family the head of the family is the father. He is the head all others, the wife, the children, the servants, they are all subordinate. Similarly God the supreme father he's the principal head of the entire family and all others subordinate, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The singular number person God is supplying the necessities of all others. This is Vedic knowledge, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān , the *Upaniṣads* . So our bhakta philosophy is we are all individuals. God is individual and we are all individuals we live together and along with the supreme person we also enjoy. Just like the gopīs are dancing with Kṛṣṇa, that is the highest perfection. To keep your individuality and dance with the supreme individual person, association. So? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) (break) Devotee: . . . discipline them in that way. Indian Mātājī: Discipline . . . Prabhupāda: I don’t want to that way . . . (indistinct) Indian Mātājī: No but like in this case. like many time it happens we go on repeating the same, we don’t want . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How to do it? It's material . . . so far as you know in our childhood our teacher used to keep our skin . . . Indian Mātājī: Right, but in Vedic system we don’t have that. Parents all we are forced with spanking they had a very big spat over that. Parents don’t want their children to be spanked from the school, from the school as well as from home . . . (indistinct) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . found out how to control them otherwise how they will be able to manage? (aside) Carefully . . . oh! Indian Mātājī: (laughs) . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Twist her ear? Prabhupāda: They must be conscious that if I do not obey that there will be punishment. That much impression . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: As far as the constant conduct, you know that we can hit and also to instruct them in proper worship of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Now that worship they will do automatically when they will worship, let them come in the temple . . . (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in the class they come and instead of worship they run around and play, fight with one another. Devotee (2): Fight with each other in front of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): Fight each other in front of the Deities. Prabhupāda: So children must be . . . must be very obedient and respectful to the Deities. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, should only the devotees, like we have three teachers for each group, or 15 teachers to discipline them. Prabhupāda: Three teachers there is sufficient if you want to keep 300 teachers then I have no objection but three teachers is sufficient. Satsvarūpa: And those three should be the only ones involved with the stick, hitting with a stick none of the other devotees. Prabhupāda: No already three is sufficient. *Satsvarūpa: Concerning, like you have indicated in past letters that association with the children should be only first*-class devotees. What about when . . . (break) (end) Manasa Deha Geha and Purport -- September 22, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (Playing the harmonium, singing the musical notes ṣa, ṛ, gā, ma, pa, dha, ni , low and high, high and low etc. Instructing Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa) Ei shat ta practice korte hobe. (You have to practice these seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct Bengali) . . . it's ṣa. ṛ . Prabhupāda: ṣa, ṛ, gā, ma, pa, dha, ni, ṣa . Now you can play mṛdaṅga? Devotee: He called me . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Plays the harmonium, low and high, high and low etc) Ei shat ta practice koro. (You practice these seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Accha (Okay.) Prabhupāda: Ek, dui, teen, char, panch choy, shat. Abar ek, dui, teen, char, panch choy, shat. (One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Again one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct Bengali) . . . three, four, five, six, seven. Prabhupāda: Seven. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Four, five, six, seven. So. Ṣa , ṛ , gā , ma , pa , dha , ni . ṣa Prabhupāda: All right. Kṛṣṇa dāsa can play mṛdaṅga ? You can play? Kṛṣṇa dāsa: Yes I can play unless someone else . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (Plays the harmonium) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (plays the harmonium) ( Karatālas join in). Stop! (slows the tempo slightly) . . . (returns to the first verse, 1st line followed by 2nd sings 3 times) (returns to the second verse) (returns to the first verse) *(sings kīṭa*-janma hau twice followed by the rest of the first line then followed by 2nd line, then 1st followed by 2nd) (1st followed by 2nd) (1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) (1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) (returns to the first verse, 1st line followed by 2nd 2 times) How many minutes? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I don’t know I left my watch. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I left the stopwatch down in my office. We will find it when we listen and play it back. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I have a real quartz watch. (break) Prabhupāda: deho , geho , jo kichu mor. Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor. This is a song sung by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākur. He is teaching the process of full surrender. Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . First of all, he is surrendering the mind, because mind is the origin of all kinds of speculations; and surrendering, rendering devotional service means first controlling the mind. Therefore he says mānasa , means "mind," then deha : "senses." Śarīra . Deha means this body; body means senses. So, if we surrender the mind unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the senses also become surrendered. *Then, "my home." Deha , geho . Geho means home. Jo kichu mor . Our all possessions are comprising these three things: mind, body and our home. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura proposes to surrender everything. Arpilū tuwā pade , nanda*-kiśor. *Nanda*-kiśor is Kṛṣṇa. So, "I am surrendering my mind, my body and my home unto You." *Now, sampade vipade , jīvane*-maraṇe : "Either I am in happiness or I am in distress, either I am in living condition or I am dead." *Dāy mama gelā , tuwā o*-pada baraṇe :" Now I am relieved. I am feeling relief because I have surrendered unto You everything." *Mārobi rākhobi*-jo icchā tohārā : "Now it is up to You whether You like to keep me or You want to kill me; that depends on You." *Nitya*-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā : "You have got every right to do whatever You think right in relation with Your servant. I am Your eternal servant." Janmāobi moe icchā jadi tor : "If you so desire"—because a devotee goes back to Home, goes back to Godhead—therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura proposes, "If You like that I shall again take birth, it doesn't matter." *Bhakta*-gṛhe jani janma hau mor : "That's only request is that if I have to take my birth, please kindly give me the chance of taking my birth in a devotee's house." *Kīṭa*-janma hau jathā tuwā dās : "I don't mind if I am born as an insect, but I must be in the house of a devotee." *Bahir mukha brahma*-janme nāhi āś : "I do not like nondevotee life. Even if I am born as a Lord Brahmā. I want to remain with the devotees." *Bhukti*-mukti-spṛhā vihīna je bhakta : "I want such devotee who doesn't care for material happiness or spiritual liberation." Labhaite tāko saṅga anurakta : "I simply desire to be associated with such pure devotees." Janaka jananī , dayita , tanay : "Now, henceforward You are my father, You are my brother, You are my daughter, You are my son, You are my Lord, You are my spiritual master, You are my husband, everything You are." Bhakativinoda kohe , śuno kāna : "My Lord, Kāna—Kṛṣṇa, You are the Lover of Rādhārānī, but You are my life and soul, kindly give me protection." . . . So you will play there? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I’ll play it in your room . . . (indistinct) . . . stopwatches . . . when I find the right cable. Devotee (2): . . . (indistinct) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes but it has to be finer. (break) Prabhupāda: mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Deha , deha ? Prabhupāda: Deha , deha . deha , geha *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Deha , geha ? Prabhupāda: Ah..g e h a, mānasa , deha , geha . *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes, mānasa , deha , geha . Prabhupāda: Yes . . . your wife has come here? No? Pradyumna: No. I would have brought her except I didn’t know if the . . . (indistinct) . . . here. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . ah Pradyumna . . . (indistinct) . . . did not come? . . . (indistinct) . . . and another thing you remember I sent one article to Madras. Pradyumna: Nāgarāja Rao. You never received a reply, I don’t think. Prabhupāda: Ah, you sent it by registered post? Pradyumna: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: So, you can remind him that on such and such day we sent one article written like this. We have not received any acknowledgement. So if you have published kindly send us one copy. If you have not published then. You can return us the article. Devotee (3): I’m here now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (3): I’m here to learn. Prabhupāda: So stay here for some days, yes. That will be nice. Devotee (3): Is it possible that I may speak to you about on certain matters? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes. Devotee (3): I mean when you have the time. My wife also sent you, when you were in India she made you a bead bag. She sent you did you ever receive it? Prabhupāda: In India? Devotee (3): Yes she sent it to India. To Africa first and then they sent it to India, she wanted to know. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Devotee (3): She wants to know if you got it? Prabhupāda: So many beads come. Devotee (3): Hm. Śrutakīrti: So many bead bags (laughs). Prabhupāda: So, oh yes! I received one bead bag, yes. Devotee (3): From Sweden? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Devotee (3): That's nice, she wanted to know if . . . Prabhupāda: (sings) Mānasa , deho , geho , jo kichu mor . (break) (end) Nitai Guna Mani Amara -- September 23, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (singing with harmonium) (break) play like this… (plays mṛdaṅga ) Can you play like this . . . (plays mṛdaṅga , vocalises beat) All right. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . it takes me a long time. (harmonium, mṛdaṅga , karatālas playing) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . again. Prabhupāda: This is not good. Devotee: Alright I think . . . (indistinct) (harmonium, mṛdaṅga , karatālas playing) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Do you want to play . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Would you like to play mṛdaṅga over later? (break) Prabhupāda: Play? (background discussion) Prabhupāda: You can play karatālas very softly, little. (sings bhajan ) Prabhupāda: Let us see, by playing mṛdaṅga how it comes. (discussion amongst devotees) (break) ( mṛdaṅga and karatālas playing) (discussion about recording) ( mṛdaṅga and karatālas playing) (end) Nitai Guna Mani Amara and Purport -- September 24, 1972, Los Angeles (harmonium) Prabhupāda: So you are beginning from here? Devotee: Yes Prabhupāda: Play like this. ( taṁburā tuning) . . . (indistinct) You cannot play. There. Play it nicely. (chants 3 times) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (chants twice) (break) Try to play mṛdaṅga . Karāndhara: Yes. Karatālas are in the room? Prabhupāda: Yes. ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) (tapping sound) One two three. Devotee: One? Prabhupāda: One two three. Yes. So. Permanent, you follow? ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ). One two three, then one two, one two and three. ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) That's not good . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Simply one two . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) Yes. (break) ( mṛdaṅga plays, followed by karatālas ) (break) ( mṛdaṅga plays, then karatālas ) Well that's all right. Devotee: I just don’t get it. Devotees: (laughter) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . from inside they bring . . . (indistinct) . . . a small child and he cannot restrain? A small . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is nature's way. Take care of the child immediately. When boys are spoiled? Simply by bad association, that's all. The world is so much polluted any innocent child can be polluted. That is going on everywhere all over the world. The whole world is polluted even the best child is polluted. When? As soon as he goes to school and meets his friends, finished. The schools, colleges are slaughterhouses. (break) (purport) *Nitāi guṇa*-maṇi āmār nitāi guṇa-maṇi —this is a song sung by Locana Dāsa Ṭhākura, almost a contemporary of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has got many books on the life and precepts of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he is saying that Lord Nityānanda is full of good qualities, guṇa-maṇi . *Guṇa*-maṇi means the jewel of all qualities. So nitāi guṇa-maṇi āmār nitāi guṇa-maṇi . He is repeatedly uttering that Lord Nityānanda is the reservoir of all good qualities. Āniyā premera vanyā bhāsāilo avanī . And on account of His spiritual qualities, he inundated the whole world by the flood of love of God. It is by His kindness people can feel what is love of God. Premer vanyā loiyā nitāi āilā gauḍa-deśe . When Caitanya Mahāprabhu left home and took sannyas , He made His headquarter at Jagannātha Purī. So after His accepting the sannyas order, when He left His home and country Lord Nityānanda Prabhu also accompanied Him up to Jagannātha Purī. *So after a few days, Lord Caitanya requested Him that, "If both of us remain here, then who will preach in Bengal?" Bengal is known as gauḍa*-deśe. So under the order of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He brought from Him the flood of love of Godhead and He distributed in the whole of Bengal, gauḍa-deśe . And in that flood of love of God, all devotees became drowned. Only those who were not devotees, they could not drown but they were floating, dīna hīna bāche . But so far Nityānanda Prabhu is concerned, He does not make any discrimination between devotees and nondevotees. Dīna hīna patita pāmara nāhi bāche. Poor or rich or enlightened or foolish, everyone could take the instruction of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and become drowned in the ocean of love of Godhead. Such love of Godhead is brahmār durlabha . Even Lord Brahmā, who is the supreme teacher within this universe, he also cannot relish. But by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Mahāprabhu, this love of Godhead was distributed to everyone without any discrimination. *So ābaddha karuṇā*-sindhu , it was just like a big ocean blocked all sides. Ocean of love of Godhead is a big ocean, but it was not inundated. So Nityānanda Prabhu cut a canal from the ocean, and He brought the canal in every door. Ghare ghare bule prema-amiyāra bān . The flood of the nectar of love of Godhead was thus distributed in each and every home in Bengal. Actually still Bengal is overwhelmed when there is talk of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Prabhu. Locan bole , now the author is speaking on his behalf that anyone who does not take the advantage given by Lord Nityānanda Prabhu, so in his opinion he thinks that such a person knowingly is committing suicide. (end) Jaya Radhe Jaya Krsna -- September 25, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: I can sit here . . . book? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes, you can hold the book so that you don’t have to turn . . . (break) (harmonium) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . apartment . . . (indistinct) (harmonium) Prabhupāda: Bring those small books. (break) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So I hope you have got another. (harmonium) Sing? Prabhupāda: Hmm . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (plays mṛdaṅga then karatālas ) (plays mṛdaṅga ) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: . . . (indistinct) (plays mṛdaṅga then karatālas ) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: (indistinct) . . . I didn’t get the time . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I didn’t start the watch in time either time. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) Anadi Karama Phale and Purport -- September 26, 1972, Los Angeles *(Because of my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen into an ocean of nescience. I cannot find any means to get out of this great ocean, which is indeed like an ocean of poison. We are trying to be happy through sense enjoyment, but actually that so*-called enjoyment is like food that is too hot and causes burning in the heart. I feel a burning sensation constantly, day and night, and thus my mind cannot find satisfaction.) Prabhupāda: You don’t go with me. You simply in one meter, ting ting ting ting . When I go fast you may not go fast. Devotee: So just . . . shall I not hit four string lightly . . . a longer like that? Prabhupāda: Yes that's all. There this meter . . . (indistinct) . . . any condition this meter is nice . . . yes. (indistinct conversation) ( mṛdaṅga ) (break) (harmonium) Prabhupāda: If this air is not let out then the handle will go back. But they do not know it. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Stalls it? Prabhupāda: Immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . without pressing the button. Therefore we spoil the harmonium, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Does it wreck the reeds? Or does it . . . cause the (break) Prabhupāda: Due to the manufacturing process. Structure. ( mṛdaṅga ) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) ( karatālas ) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas ) Prabhupāda: So I need to explain. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Think you want to do it here? Prabhupāda: No I can do it. Purport to Anādi Karama Phale from Gītāvalī by Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura - Gold Series CD 7 Track 4: *Anādi karama*-phale. Anādi karama-phale pori' bhavārṇava-jale taribāre nā dekhi upāya . This is a song sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, depicting the picture of the conditioned soul. It is said here, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is speaking, taking himself as one of the ordinary human being, that due to my past fruitive activities, I have now fallen in this ocean of nescience, and I do not find any means of coming out of this great ocean. It is just like the ocean of poison, e viṣaya-halāhale , divā-niśi hiyā jvale. *As, if anyone takes some pungent food, it burns the heart, similarly, as we are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, actually, it is just becoming the opposite, a cause of burning our heart. E viṣaya*-halāhale , divā-niśi hiyā jvale , that burning sensation is going on twenty-four hours, day and night. Mana kabhu sukha nāhi pāya , and on account of this my mind is not at all in satisfaction. *Āśā*-pāśa-śata-śata kleśa dey abirata , I am always making plan, hundreds and thousands, how I shall become happy, but actually all of them giving me trouble, pains, twenty-four hours. Pravṛtti-ūrmira tāhe khelā , it is exactly like the waves of the ocean, always dashing one another that is my position. *Kāma*-krodha-ādi caya , bāṭapāre dey bhaya , besides that, there are so many thieves and rogues. Especially they are six in number, namely lust, anger, envy, illusion, and so many ways, they are always present, and I am afraid of them. Abasāna hoilo āsi' belā , in this way, my life is becoming advanced, or I am coming to the point of end. *Jñāna*-karma ṭhaga dui , more pratāriyā loi , although this is my position, still, two kinds of activities, namely mental speculation and fruitive activities, they are cheating me. Jñāna-karma ṭhaga , ṭhaga means cheater. There are jñāna-karma ṭhaga dui , more pratāriyā loi , they are misleading me, and abaśeṣe fele sindhu-jale , after misleading me, they bring me on the seashore and pushes me down within the sea. *E heno samaye bandhu tumi kṛṣṇa kṛpā*-sindhu , under the circumstance, my dear Kṛṣṇa, you are the only friend, tumi kṛṣṇa kṛpā-sindhu. Kṛpā kori' tolo more bale , now I have no strength to get out of this ocean of nescience, so I request, I pray unto Your lotus feet, that by Your strength, You kindly pick me up. Patita-kiṅkare dhari' pāda-padma-dhūli kori' , after all, I am your eternal servant. So, somehow or other, I am fallen in this ocean, you kindly pick me up, and fix me as one of the dust of Your lotus feet. *Deho bhaktivinoda āśraya , Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura entreats, that "Kindly give me shelter on Your lotus feet." Āmi tava nitya*-dāsa , actually I am Your eternal servant. Bhuliyā māyāra pāś , somehow or other I forgot You, and I am now fallen in the network of māyā . Baddha ho'ye āchi doyāmoy , my dear Lord, I have been entangled in this way. Kindly save me. (end CD version): *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Five minutes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) (end) *Suddha*-bhakata-carana-renu and Purport -- September 27, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda: How many minutes? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Ah. 14 minutes 45 seconds. I started the watch right when we began playing about a minute before you actually began singing. (break) (harmonium) ( mṛdaṅga tunes up) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) Prabhupāda: Sing only harmonium. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: You don’t hear anything else? Prabhupāda: No. ( mṛdaṅga ) ( karatālas joins mṛdaṅga ) *Prabhupāda: Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu bhajana-anukūla . . . *Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu , bhajana-anukūla. This is a song, sung by Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura in pursuance of Prahlāda Mahārāja's instructions in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Prahlāda Mahārāja has recommended, eh. Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim ( SB 7.5.32) "One cannot have pure devotional attachment to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord." Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim , spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ , "By touching the lotus feet of a pure devotee means immediately all misconceptions of life becomes eradicated." *Naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghrim , spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad*-arthaḥ , mahīyasāṁ pāda-rajo-'bhiṣekaṁ. Mahīyasām , "Those who are great souls, great devotees who accept the dust of their lotus feet." Niṣkiñcanānāṁ na vṛṇīta yāvat , "Unless one comes to that point it is very different to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Actually it is not possible, one cannot make any advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness unless he accepts the dust of the lotus feet of the pure devotees. So Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura says that "The dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotees is very favourable for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." *Śuddha*-bhakata-caraṇa-reṇu , bhajana-anukūla , "It is very favourable." Bhakata-sevā parama-siddhi prema-latikāra mūla , "the love of Godhead is always compared with a creeper as the creeper in the garden takes the shelter of another big tree." Similarly when we approach a pure devotee and engage ourselves in the service of that pure devotee that is our shelter exactly like the creeper takes shelter of a big tree. *Prema*-latikāra , prema-latikāra , "The creeper of love stands in that position." Mādhava-tithi "And after that following the instructions of the pure devotee," means mādhava-tithi. Just like Ekādaśī. Ekādaśī is called mādhava-tithi or Janmāṣṭamī any festival in connection with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is called mādhava-tithi. *Mādhava*-tithi bhakti-jananī , "If we observe the performance of mādhava-tithi then that becomes the mother of our devotional service." Bhakti-jananī jetane pālana kori , "One has to observe this mādhava-tithi very carefully." *Kṛṣṇa*-basati basati boli' parama ādare bori , "And kṛṣṇa-basati , or Kṛṣṇa's place just like Vṛndāvana, Mathurā, Dvārakā they are famous as being Kṛṣṇa's favourites, so to live in such holy place one should be very much hankering after, kṛṣṇa-basati ." *Gaur āmāra je*-saba sthāne koralo bhramaṇa raṅge , "Similarly Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu has travelled many places in India, ye-saba sthāne . So one should be very much eager to see those places." Gaur āmāra , je-saba sthāne koralo bhramaṇa raṅge , "Wherever he has travelled." *Se*-saba sthāna , heribo āmi praṇayi-bhakata-saṅge , "I want to see those places which in company with a pure devotee." If ordinarily anyone goes to such places he will see only the street and the trees and the cars and the, but the same place when it is visited along with a devotee it has got a different effect. *Mṛdaṅga*-bādya śunite mana abasara sadā jāce , "I wish to hear the sound vibration of mṛdaṅga , kohl , it is very pleasing to me." *Gaura*-bihita kīrtana śuni'ānande hṛdoya nāce , "And when I hear some song which is approved by the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahāprabhu then my heart dances with that song." *Jugala*-mūrti dekhiyā mora parama-ānanda hoya , the deities there, Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, when I see. I feel transcendental pleasure. *Prasāda*-sebā korite hoya sakala prapañca jaya , "And when I take, respect the prasādam offered to Kṛṣṇa then I think that I am becoming liberated," actually it is so. The more we eat ordinary foodstuff we become entangled. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ (BG 3.13). "One who eats prasādam he becomes free from all contamination of life." Whereas one who cooks for himself, generally people do so, generally the mass of people they purchase things, so many uneatable things, meats, fish eggs along with vegetables also. But they eat only sins, sinful life there but if you eat prasādam you become free from sin and if you do not eat prasādam you cook ordinary things for your eating then you become entangled instead. *Je*-dina gṛhe bhajana dekhi gṛhete goloka bhāya , "Whenever I see at home there is worship of the Lord I think the, my household life is as good as Vaikuṇṭha." *Caraṇa*-sīdhu dekhiyā gaṅgāsukha nā sīmā pāya , "And whenever I see the Ganges," because the Ganges is emanating from the toe's of Lord Viṣṇu "therefore I become highly pleased, ecstatic by seeing the Ganges River." *Tulasī dekhi' jurāya prāṇa , "And similarly whenever I see the Tulasī plant." Mādhava*-toṣaṇī jāni' , "Because I know that by offering Tulasī—Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased therefore as soon as I see a Tulasī plant I become very much ecstatic." *Gaura*-priya śāka-sevane jīvana sārthaka māni , "Similarly when I eat śāka ," green vegetable which is very dear to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "I feel that my life is now successful." *Bhakativinoda kṛṣṇa*-bhajane anakūla pāya jāhā , Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura, Bhaktivinode Ṭhākura says that, "Whatever I feel favourable in the matter of executing my devotional service unto the Supreme Lord every day." *Prati*-dibase parama-sukhe swīkāra koroye tāhā , "I accept all of them every day with great pleasure." *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Nine, nine minutes. Prabhupāda: Hmm. 14 and 9. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Almost 15. Yes. Prabhupāda: Almost 24. (break) (end) Conversation -- September 29, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Ajke ar hobe na. (Not today.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Eh? Prabhupāda: Ajke ar hocche na. (Not happening today.) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh! ajke hobe na! oh accha. (Oh? Not happening today? Oh well.) Prabhupāda: Oh simply warning? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just warning. Prabhupāda: Ah acha . Hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak, hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak , hirud tinak die vidya vidya high tine tine tak . (door opens) Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda something about the tickets. We have those around the world tickets, we have round the world tickets and those tickets have a certain amount of. Have an itinerary. The itinerary is that we go from . . . Prabhupāda: That you understand, I cannot remember. Pradyumna: Well eh, there's just one thing, that Karāndhara wanted me to ask about. That the tickets are going to be ah, $1900 apiece. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: And Karāndhara just wanted you to know that the money is coming out of the book fund. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask Karāndhara to see me. Yes . . . that is the . . . called tactics. If the teachers are rascals themselves then there won't be any fight. There should be . . . (indistinct) . . . you know the tigers in the circus? Karāndhara: Yes. They pull out the whip but they never hit the tiger. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karāndhara: They never hit the tiger. Prabhupāda: Yes. Karāndhara: They just crack the whip. Prabhupāda: The tiger is so afraid simply by seeing that—he shuddered. Summarily it is not used. Simply in the hand. That is tactic. So if a tiger can be trained in that way, an animal, a ferocious animal and they cannot train the children? It needs a good teacher Children will cry they will fight but you have to create. Teachers . . . (indistinct) . . . TAK! TAK! TAK! Immediately they stop. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: I have seen it . . . in our childhood I remember two teachers, we were so afraid we would going 50 miles away to avoid. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: It is . . . (indistinct) . . . even though . . . (indistinct) . . . "What is Bhagavān doing he has had so many accidents." It was going in the . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately transferred. He created such an atmosphere simply by seeing, all the children cried. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even in the . . . (indistinct) . . . we have some afraid—some type of fearness with the professors also . . . (indistinct) . . . we don't have any. Prabhupāda: Well that is required or deviance is the first form . . . (pause) So you have . . . recording department has not paid me. Karāndhara: Not paid? Prabhupāda: Not paid and so what is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: I mean about the credit? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes its royalties. We pay from the records that sold. Prabhupāda: And when it will be sold? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Well the first record will be ready in about a week. Karāndhara: They are bringing it . . . (indistinct) . . . did they get more work done on it? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: There was, there was a contract between a teacher and his students, law students. So the students says: "Sir I have no money I shall pay you when I practical." . . . (indistinct) . . . so he says: "all right." So after learning the law, so he was not going to the court . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) So this proposal is like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Making recording, there is no sales . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no sales, so when there is sales I'll pay . . . (indistinct) *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: It is common standard practice in the recording . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: So when the sale is made the artist. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Artist don't usually get paid . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Artist do not get paid? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: No. Karāndhara: Sometimes they get advancement but goes against our future development . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes. So you can practice it. Then the teacher did one practise he found a suitable criminal. Karāndhara: He . . . (indistinct) . . . in the court. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karāndhara: He . . . (indistinct) . . . in the court. Prabhupāda: Yes. So. Karāndhara: No respect for him. *Prabhupāda: He wanted defence so then he said finally, "My Lord either you let him pay you know now he is practising." This is called tit*-for-tat. Karāndhara: Tit for tat? *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . tit*-for-tat. The student was also clever but the teacher was also more clever. All right. (Devotee's leave offering their obeisances) Prabhupāda: Turn it off? Devotee: No it's . . . (indistinct) . . . (end) Amara Jivana with Purport -- October 2, 1972, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: The name of the song, the microphone stopped working . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . what was the name of the song Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata. (tuning mṛdaṅga ) . . . (indistinct) (plays mṛdaṅga , karatālas ) Prabhupāda: So you will play? Devotee: Yes I will play. Prabhupāda: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata. (Audio from the CD version of the purport): Āmāra Jīvana, 'The Way of Refuge' from Śaraṇāgati by Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura - Gold Series CD 8 Track 3: Āmāra jīvana sadā pāpe rata nāhiko puṇyera leśa . This is a song sung by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in Vaiṣṇava humbleness. A Vaiṣṇava is always meek and humble. So he is describing the life of the people in general, taking himself to be one of them. The people in general are like the description given here. He says that, "My life is always engaged in sinful activities, and if you try to find out, you will not find even a trace of pious activities. Only full of sinful activities. And I am always inclined to give trouble to other living entities. That is my business. I want to see that others are suffering, and I enjoy." *Nija sukha lāgi' pāpe nāhi ḍori. "For my personal sense gratification, I do not care for any sinful activities. That means I accept any kind of sinful activity if it is satisfactory to my senses." Dayā*-hīna swārtha-paro. "I am not at all merciful, and only I see to my personal interest." *Para*-sukhe duḥkhī. "As such, when others are suffering I become very happy, and always talking lies," sadā mithyā-bhāṣī . "Even for ordinary things I am accustomed to speak lies." Para-duḥkha sukha-karo. "And if one is suffering, that is very pleasant to me." Aśeṣa kāmanā hṛdi mājhe mora. "I have got lots of desire within my heart, and I am always angry and falsely prestigious, always puffed up with false pride." *Mada*-matta sadā viṣaye mohita. "I am captivated in subject matters of sense gratification, and almost I am crazy." Hiṁsā-garva vibhūṣaṇa. "My ornaments are enviousness and false pride." Nidralāsya hata sukārje birata. "I am subdued, or I am conquered by sleep and laziness," sukārje birata , "and I am always averse to pious activities," akārje udyogīāmi , "and I am very enthusiastic to perform impious activities." *Pratiṣṭha lāgiyāśāṭhya-ācaraṇa , "I always cheat others for my prestige." Lobha*-hata sadā kāmī , "I am conquered by greediness and always lusty." E heno durjana saj-jana-barjita , "So I am so fallen, and I have no association of devotees." Aparādhi , "Offender," nirantara , "always." *Śubha*-kārja-śūnya , "In my life, there is not a beat of auspicious activities," sadānartha manāḥ , "and my mind is always attracted by something mischievous." Nānā duḥkhe jara jara . "Therefore at the fag end of my life, I am almost invalid by all such sufferings." *Bārdhakye ekhona upāya*-vihīna , "In my old age I have no other alternative now," tā 'te dīna akiñcana , "therefore by force, I have now become very humble and meek." Bhaktivinoda prabhura caraṇe , "Thus Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is offering his statement of life's activities at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord." (end) Conversation -- October 3, 1972, Los Angeles (noisy recording) Prabhupāda: Where is Śyāmasundara? He's not here. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He's downstairs packing . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? *Guest: I haven't read any of them . . . (indistinct) . . . various Bhagavad*-gītā's , but not ah . . . I haven't read any. Prabhupāda: Show our books. *Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā , Teachings of Lord Caitanya . Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Devotee: This is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: My picture is backside. *Devotee: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . this is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Śrīla Prabhupāda and published in 1960. Guest: Who founded the Society? Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Pradyumna: The *Nectar of Devotion* , this tells about psychological aspects of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: (indistinct) . . . psychological . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: Tells about the symptoms of devotional service . . . (indistinct) . . . the symptoms of having a pure relationship with God. Guest: Could you, could you not . . . (indistinct) . . . this whether or not you have a pure relationship with God. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): (background) Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Guest: You showed me. *Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book . . . (indistinct) . . . an essential part of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam with 18,000 versus, where the Bhagavad-gītā leaves off. This is the essential part . . . (indistinct) . . . sublime knowledge . . . (indistinct) . . . tells directly about Kṛṣṇa, where He lives . . . (indistinct) . . . who His associates are, what His activities are. Guest: This is very beautiful. So many stories. Prabhupāda: Ah. Stor . . . philosophy and life, of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: That's nice . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Stories . . . (indistinct) *Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . is the elementary book for spiritual life . . . (indistinct) . . . get into the science of God with Kṛṣṇa's instruction . . . (indistinct) . . . engaged in devotional service and be liberated and this Bhāgavatam it starts where Bhagavad-gītā leaves off. *Bhagavad*-gītā begins and then the Bhāgavatam starts where the Bhagavad-gītā leaves off with the last instruction it goes on to expand and develop devotional service. Just the pure side of devotional service. Up to this point of Kṛṣṇa Book . Kṛṣṇa Book is the full realisation of who the Personality of Godhead is. Guest: Hm. The *Kṛṣṇa Book* is a synthesis of what? *Pradyumna: You see, it is a combination of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Do you have classes? Prabhupāda: There are daily classes. At six, quarter past six in the morning. Guest: How do you, do you see people or do you mostly speak with priests? Prabhupāda: No, we speak to our students. But outside, there are many outsiders that come. Guest: When one of the . . . when one of the . . . when one of the people here are feeling, ah . . . not in touch with themselves or the world . . . out of grasp, out of tune with nature. Is it God after or is . . . an elevation of the spirit away from the body and away from that problem and you go into that problem and then you work on it or. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: I'm curious as to whether you . . . when there is a problem and the principal players around me with the person in society then and the way that person feels about themselves in society. Do you help that person by transcending that plane by going above it and becoming more in tune with em . . . Prabhupāda: No we speak on the transcendental platform not on the bodily or mental or intellectual platform. We speak directly on the spiritual platform. Do you distinguish between mind and body mind intellect, and spirit? Do you have any such distinction? Different platform. What do you care for? Sensual? Then above that mental platform above that intellectual platform above that spiritual platform. Guest: And do you go in those steps in the training or in the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes these are the four platforms. Body, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur ( BG 3.42). First of all our direct perception is on the sensual platform by sense perception. Just like seeing directly and seeing directly this special. And then I am seeing by hearing from others. These two visions are different, a child is seeing this machine and a mechanic who has heard about this machine he's seeing differently. And then one actually mechanic is thinking to improve it and that is another vision. So even on the material platform there are three visions and above all these material, means bodily . . . material mean sensual, mental and intellectual. Above that there is the spiritual platform, so we speak on the spiritual platform. Guest: And if someone who is having problems on another platform, say at the physical platform . . . Prabhupāda: Then he can be treated physically. Guest: Do you treat him physically? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No. Okay. Prabhupāda: We, we take it that if spiritually one is sound then intellectually mentally and physically he will be sound. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is our proposition. Just like if you have got a $100 then you have got $50, $10 and $25, that includes, but if you are got $10 then you haven't got $100. But if you have $100 then you have automatically $10, so we train our students spiritually, just like for spiritual understanding they have to rise early in the morning, they have to take bath. They have to take Kṛṣṇa prasādam they are forbidden to take so many things, so in this way automatically their physical hygienic problem is solved. We don't pay very much doctor's fees, I'm here for the last seven years, I did not pay doctor's fees, mostly our students they haven't got to consult for their physical disease. Mostly they are immune from disease. So actually your body is healthy in sound bodily . . . I mean to say health, mental, I mean to say what's it called? Fixity, everything is there because the spirit soul is there, because the spirit soul is there your body looks healthy, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from the body it will immediately begin to decompose, is it not? Guest: The body will in the end. Prabhupāda: The . . . within your body you are—the spirit soul, I am the spirit soul so as soon as I the spirit soul, you the spirit soul go— leave this body immediately the body begins to decompose. Guest (2): How do you feed the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: That I shall say, first of all because the spirit soul is there you are healthy. You take out the spirit soul, immediately your this lump of matter begins to decompose. Dead body and living body this is the distinction so long the spirit soul is there it is called living body, as soon as the spirit soul is not there it is called dead body. Dead body means it has begun decomposition, therefore the conclusion should be that so long the spirit is there . . . as long as the spirit is there so long the mind and body is in sound condition. You see? Therefore if you keep yourself always spiritually fit then you will keep mentally and intellectually and bodily fit. Now so far the spirit soul is concerned. You have no conception of spirit soul? Guest: Some conception. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest: Ah . . . em . . . my words don't do very well ah . . . in essence that inexpressible ah . . . ineffable . . . ah . . . Prabhupāda: But that is negation. That is not experimental. Guest: That essence of me which is the same as of you and everyone. Prabhupāda: No, perception of the spirit soul, the spirit soul is existing within your body. I am enquiring whether you agree to this or not? Guest (2): You're asked us whether we agree that it exists within our body, ah . . . as I conceive of it, I am not used to thinking in terms of . . . the terms that you've derived, ah . . . Prabhupāda: No we accept, unless we accept or accept means unless we perceive and know it there is no question of spiritual education if I cannot understand what is that spirit soul then where is spiritual education and that is the basic principle of spiritual education. Guest: I thought that I understood what you meant but I'm not sure now but what I feel when you talk about the spirit soul is that part of me that I feel most when I am not using my physical senses and I am not contemplating talking. Prabhupāda: No, physical senses are working due to spiritual presence, you are moving your hand because the spirit soul is within you, as soon as the spirit soul is gone from this body it is simply a lump of matter. Guest (2): The matter is separate from the spirit soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Does the spirit soul . . . is my spirit soul any different from anyone else's spirit soul? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest: Yeah. I can understand that. Prabhupāda: The vital force, the moving force that is in you and that is in me that is in ant that is in elephant that is everywhere. Guest (2): Is it in the matter? Is it in the decomposed matter? Is it in the wood? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Is it in our bodies after we are dead? Prabhupāda: Yes. You are dead, "you" spirit gone but other spirit is there. Guest: But are the cords the same? Prabhupāda: There are innumerable individual spirit souls. Guest: Individual spirit soul's? Prabhupāda: You are individual, I am individual, he's . . . everyone. Guest (2): And there is not a cord spirit soul that is the same with all of them? Prabhupāda: The quality is the same, the quality is the same. Just like you are human being, I am a human being, you have got your two hands I have got my two hands, you have got legs I have got legs, but still you are different, that is individuality. Because we agreed to have two hands two legs one head that does not mean we agree on everything. Guest: But at the basis at the essence our spirit soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Is there any difference? Prabhupāda: No. Guest: No. Okay. Prabhupāda: No. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: What happens when someone comes to . . . ah hear and they are caught up or having a problem in say a physical or mental plane and can't understand the spiritual plane how do you tie them into that so they can transcend the problem? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If one comes to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform then there is no more any problem bodily mentally or. Guest: But what I am, what I'm curious about is how you tie someone into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: We have got our process. Guest: It's not. Prabhupāda: We have got our process. We . . . Guest (2): A healing process? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): A healing process? Healing. *Prabhupāda: Healing. Yes it is healing process. It is healing process, just like you also heal by some psycho*-theist process similarly we also heal by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness process. Guest: Could you say a bit about that process? Prabhupāda: Yes this chanting Hare Krishna, mantra . Just like there is a process of snakebite, have you seen a snake charmer? In India we have got still, if one is bitten by a snake he is unconscious by chanting the mantra you will gradually come to consciousness. So this is material, similarly we are spirit soul we are now—everyone of us—either psychologically, mentally or bodily, we are all diseased, all diseased. So by this chanting process he comes to his consciousness and all this material, bodily mental intellectual diseases are cured. Guest (2): It would seem that someone would have to be on a certain mind for that to be of assistance. Prabhupāda: No, we create that situation, simply by chanting. We are chanting and he joins in chanting, all our students do that. Then he becomes cured, mentally intellectually and bodily. Guest (2): See we meet people who would not do that, they seek healing from other individuals more than from themselves and what they can bring up by concentration by chanting. They seek assistance more from outside than from within by chanting and they are not used to looking within or delving within by chanting. Prabhupāda: No we have got so many students and simply by chanting they are cured. Mental, bodily and intellectually, we have so many students, you can talk any one of them. Guest: After going through the process to get their Kṛṣṇa consciousness then would the students stay in the movement as far as like at the temple, in the temple or would they go out into the community and . . . and do regular jobs and that type of thing? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many professions, he is . . . he is a Dr. of chemistry. He is doing his job but he is a Kṛṣṇa conscious and there is many professors, many workers. It is not that one has to live in the temple, no. He can live outside. But he keeps his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But within the society it is easier because association has got some influence. Guest: It's easier to stay with the discipline. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Guest (2): Do you teach ah, control over the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): In relation over the body. Prabhupāda: Yes, as we say no meat eating, no intoxicants, no illicit sex, no gambling, there are so many no's. And so many yes so they have to do that. Do's and do not's, that is control. Do this and do not do this, so this is control. Guest (2): You mentioned . . . Prabhupāda: The . . . our students do not even smoke, do not drink tea coffee nothing. They do not go to cinema, no club, no restaurant. Guest: No what? Prabhupāda: Restaurant. We have no such expenditure and probably no doctors bill. So at least we save so much expenditure. Guest (2): You said: "no illicit sex," what is permissible sex? Prabhupāda: Permissible sex means married wife. One must be married and with married wife he can have sex once in a month after the menstrual period and when the wife is pregnant no more sex life. This is control. If he wants sex life he can have another wife but not to the pregnant wife. Therefore we allow but not in your country but in India polygamy is allowed. One man can marry more than one wife but he cannot have sex life with the wife more than once in a month and that is stopped when she is pregnant. This is control of sex and . . . (indistinct) . . . against this that is illicit sex. Guest (2): Which . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Even with your wife when she is pregnant if you have sex that is illicit sex. Guest (2): Do you conceive of punishment? Prabhupāda: Punishment it will be already there automatically by nature's way . . . Guest: Are women and . . . Prabhupāda: As soon as you violate nature's law you will be punished. Suppose you are eating, if you eat a little more you will be punished. That is nature's law. If you have more sex life then you become impotent. That is nature's punishment is there . . . And if you indulge in all these prohibited things then you will never understand what is spiritual consciousness. That is the greatest punishment. If you do not understand what is spiritual life you remain as an animal, that is the greatest punishment, because animal cannot understand what is spiritual life. So in spite of getting the chance of a human form of body if we keep ourselves like animals, is it not the greatest punishment? If I cannot improve as a human being, I remain on the animal platform, is it not the greatest punishment? So if you do not follow these principles then we cannot understand what is spiritual life, that means we remain animal. Guest: Is there an endpoint to the growth process? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Is there an end point? Prabhupāda: Yes as soon as you understand God then your knowledge is perfect. If you do not understand what is God then your knowledge is imperfect. The animals cannot be educated about God, a human being can be educated what is God therefore there are so many books, literatures, scriptures in the human society so if you don't take advantage of this human life to understand God then you remain animal. Guest: Have you seen people who have understood God and who have ah . . . who have been in Kṛṣṇa consciousness that have been regressed or gone back into the other platforms? Prabhupāda: That one can go because there is relapse, you become released from disease and again there may be relapse. Guest: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Any disease, you are for the time being, being cured but again you infect so you became again diseased, that is possible, but if you keep yourself quite fit always there is no fall down. Guest: So then . . . sort of in essence the path to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is. Prabhupāda: Is to understand God. Guest: To understand God and to do what is most natural, to follow the natural laws. Prabhupāda: The essence is to know God and to love Him, that is our propaganda. The human life is meant for understanding God and love Him. Guest: I can follow easily what you're saying as far as the discipline and the path to your Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to do the what . . . what is the most natural . . . and that overeating overindulging in anything, sex . . . anything is not natural but what I don't understand is how it is decided what is most natural? *In other words if I am ah . . . if I go back to the point about sex because it is a concrete easy thing to talk about and for instance is it . . . is it just natural to have sex twice a month than once a month? It seems like the cut*-off point is where I would have problems mostly accepting what is the most natural. Prabhupāda: The . . . first of all the basic principle of understanding is that I am spirit soul. I am not this body and because I have accepted this body I have to accept so many bodily troubles . . . (truck sound) Guest: So many what? Prabhupāda: Bodily troubles. Guest: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: The treatment is required body mind, because we have got this body and mind. So my problem is why I have contacted this body and mind? Guest: Why you have? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I go to treatment for my body because I have got this body . . . but if I don't possess this body then there is no question of treatment. Guest: I missed the last bit. If you don't have this body then . . .? Prabhupāda: Our proposition is as I have already told, spirit soul is different from this body. Somehow or other the spirit soul has contacted this material body and all our troubles are due to this material body, therefore this material body is my problem. Guest: Since the spirit soul in the body are different . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . can the body come up with a disease that is completely separated from the spirit soul. In other words could someone on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness get a physical disease of their bodies? Prabhupāda: The body is subjected to physical disease, how can you avoid it? But if you know, just like two men are sitting in a car, very nice car, somehow or other the car is damaged the man who possesses the car he is most afflicted and the other man he is not afflicted. Although they are both of them are sitting in the same car, why it is? You are psychologist you can understand. Guest: Well certainly only from a physical sense, from the, the. Prabhupāda: This is physical. Guest: Yeah the . . . Prabhupāda: Both you and me are sitting in the same car. Guest: Right but even if the owner was at that time . . . if he was away from his body . . . if he was . . . Prabhupāda: No not away, even within the car both of them are within the car. Now the car is damaged the owner is afflicted, he is concerned but the friend is not concerned. What is the cause? Guest: The possession. Prabhupāda: Yes this man is absorbed in possession, "Oh my car is gone," and because he has got the sense of possession he is not affected. Therefore the body is different from the soul when he comes to the consciousness of not possession then there is no trouble. Guest: So someone who has trust in the consciousness may come down with a bodily illness but they won't be afflicted by it . . . em spiritual. Prabhupāda: Yes afflicted, suppose a man who knows perfectly well that I am not this car, "All right the car is a damaged I'll look some money, it doesn't matter." That is one thing. And another one is too much absorbed, "Oh my car is gone, my life is gone," this is the position. One who is absorbed he is more afflicted, one who is not absorbed he knows that, "I am not this body", he is not afflicted. So it is a question of consciousness, one who is too much bodily conscious he is afflicted, otherwise one who is not bodily conscious he will not be afflicted, "Oh it has come into effect, that's all . . . it doesn't matter let me do my duty Hare Krishna and chant." This is the position, it is a question of development of that consciousness. Guest: If someone comes in and they are preoccupied mentally with what would be a . . . a bad thought or something that keeps. Prabhupāda: Bad thought cannot come to him because if he is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa thought . . . Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . then there is no bad thought, there is no scope of bad thought. Because you can think of one subject matter at a time so if you are 24 hours absorbed in Kṛṣṇa thoughts then there is no question of bad thoughts. Guest: So if someone comes in and admittedly when they first come in they are preoccupied by a bad thought, for say two hours. Prabhupāda: Yes that is cured. Guest: Then just by . . . by getting away from it, not by expressing the thought and getting away from it but by not expressing the thought and getting away from it? Prabhupāda: No the same thing, a man comes to our society with bad thoughts. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: But by chanting chanting chanting he becomes relieved of this burden. Guest: Oh but he doesn't talk about the bad thought to anyone in the . . . Prabhupāda: He may talk or not talk it doesn't matter but it goes away. Guest (2): One thing I don't quite understand, you, you and the people around you often seek to involve and to proselytise, strangers, new people, why is that? Prabhupāda: You also proselytise, when a mad man goes to you, you turn him into sane man. Is it not proselytising? Guest (2): Yes, if he comes to me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Your people go out to other people. Prabhupāda: We are better friends, you do not go, we are better friends. You charge fees, we canvass so we are better than you. Guest (2): Do you. Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. Guest (2): Am well. Prabhupāda: Don't avoid this question. You charge, we don't charge, we go to the diseased man and canvass, so we are better man than you. Guest (2): What if he says no to you? Prabhupāda: Well anyone can say no, any canvassing. Suppose this is nice foodstuff, here is fruit the fruit man is canvassing, "Here is nice mango," that does not mean everyone will take. The mango is nice. Because one does not take that doesn't mean the mango goes bad. It is his misfortune that he could not take a nice mango. Guest (2): I was just thinking what you were just saying about charging and how our . . . Prabhupāda: No you . . . but charging of course that is your profession but we are not professional we distribute free. We distribute such exalted thing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we distribute free. Guest (2): I think it seems that there is a . . . there is a giving . . . there is something that is given by the person to you when he joins you and takes your ideas. He gives you his time, he gives you what. Prabhupāda: He gives everything. Guest (2): . . . they have. Prabhupāda: He gives everything. Guest (2): Eventually . . . Prabhupāda: Just like these boys they have given everything. So how do they give everything? We don't charge, we don't ask but they give everything. So do you think they are all fools and rascals? That they are giving everything for Kṛṣṇa. What is your idea? Guest (2): They may do what they wish if that is what they want. Prabhupāda: You, you examine each of our students they are not fools and rascals and why do they give everything for Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): They want to. Prabhupāda: Yes that is natural to give everything to Kṛṣṇa that is sane condition without this insane condition . . . just like if you take something from my table, the sane condition is if you return it . . . the sane condition . . . suppose somebody takes this box in his pocket without my knowledge he will be in tribulation, "Oh I have taken this without his knowledge what will he say," so many things but he will be cured from all this trouble when he returns it. Similarly everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, everything belongs to God, nothing belongs to me even this body. Therefore everything offering to Kṛṣṇa is the same condition . . . so when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they return everything what they received from Kṛṣṇa, this is sanity. Others are thieves they enjoy other's property and claiming my property. Just like, take for example your country, USA. Is it actually your country, your place? Do you think? 200 years ago it did not belong to you it belonged to the Red Indians and now you are claiming your country. Why? Maybe after 200 years it may go to others. So where is your country? Suppose we are sitting here say for half an hour or one hour does it belong to you, this room? If you claim, "now I have sat here for one hour it is my room," is that claim is all right? Guest: That is, that is all right, what still bothers me is not that the sanity is giving everything to God or giving your life to God which I . . . Prabhupāda: God has given you the life. Guest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: God has given you the body, God has given you the mind, God has given you wealth, everything. So therefore everything belongs to God to come to this consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Yeah. I thin . . . what bothers me is that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: . . . other consciousness is also . . . the path of giving everything to God or indeed giving everything to God or the spiritual . . . Prabhupāda: No we are talking of the philosophy. Guest: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: We're talking now. Guest: But whether Kṛṣṇa consciousness versus other consciousness in other ways of achieving the same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Actually by philosophical study you have to understand that everything belongs to God. Guest: Which is basic to the philosophy of many religions and ways of understanding God. Prabhupāda: Yes that is the original philosophy that is, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), "Everything belongs to God." We also belong to God, we are children of God therefore we have the right to use God's property but not more than what you require. Guest: But not more than. Prabhupāda: But not more than what you require. Guest: Yeah what you require. Prabhupāda: Now you're God's sons, I am God's son, he is God's son and everything God's property, so you enjoyed your father's property, I enjoy but when you encroach on my property I take more you starve or I take you starve my starve—that is irreligious. If we accept that everything belongs to God, we are sons of God every one of us, even animals, insects, birds bees trees they are all sons of God. So God's property, we are sons of God we have got the right to use but not more than what you require, then it is nice. That is God consciousness. Guest: I would certainly agree with that but again my own conflict is whether the Kṛṣṇa consciousness versus other consciousness is . . . Prabhupāda: Other consciousness is partial and Kṛṣṇa consciousness is full. Just like other consciousness is. Guest: Other consciousness partial. Prabhupāda: Just like American national consciousness but that is partial but when you speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is complete. Guest: How is it more complete than . . . than Hinduism? Prabhupāda: We are talking of God there is no Hindu or Christian. God is for everyone for Hindu Christian for everyone. God is neither Hindu nor Christian. (break) . . . and love God it doesn't matter whether you're Christian or Hindu or Muslim or this or that. Guest: (indistinct) . . . thank you for seeing us. Guest (2): Thank you for talking to us. Prabhupāda: (aside) give them prasadam . You have got your cards? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Guest: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Give them some. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some? . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever you like . . . Thank you very much. Guest: Thank you. Guest (2): Thank you. Guest: Hare Krishna. (break) (pause) Prabhupāda: This psychiatric . . . I have never seen a patient cured by a scientist. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Svarūpa Dāmodara: I . . . (indistinct) . . . more than that. I think scientists are better than psychiatrists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) they do something good, psychiatrists they just take money from the fools. Prabhupāda: There are many patients who regularly attend psychiatrists. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially in this country, generally it's a married couples they take their problems so the psychiatrists they just take money from these . . . people. Devotee: Very large . . . (indistinct) . . . very expensive. Prabhupāda: So no lunch today . . . (indistinct) . . . 4 o'clock. Devotee: That strawberry, did you have the strawberry? Prabhupāda: Yes very nice. Devotee: That was nice? That will keep for a long time, we can have some more of that. Very simple. (break) (end) Arrival -- October 5, 1972, Berkeley Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . for your participating in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Do not take this movement as any sectari . . . (break) It is a scientific, philosophical, cultural movement. People at the present moment they have forgotten themselves, the modern civilisation is based on, on the bodily concept of life. But actually we are not this body, we are spirit soul part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. As Lord is spirit the complete whole spirit, we are part and parcel of God but we are covered by subtle and gross body or matter. As such, we have forgotten our identification and on the bodily concept of life we are thinking, "I am American, I am Indian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian." But actually we are all part and parcel of God, we have to come to that consciousness. *This consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. Unless we come to that platform there is no question of peace and prosperity. Just like a madman unless he is cured from his madness he cannot be happy there is no question of peace and prosperity. The disease must be cured. Similarly, this bodily concept of life is a material disease. So, our movement, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new hobby or something introduced new. It is very old. It was spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā 5,000 years ago and before that also this philosophy was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to the sun god and if we take that calculation it comes to some 40 millions of years ago. So it is not a new thing, it is the oldest cultural thing God consciousness. I am part and parcel of God, you are part and parcel of God. So our duty is to revive our original activity and then go back to home back to Godhead. This is the sum and substance of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and anyone can perform it, it is very easy. The preliminary method is to chant the holy name of God. You can chant if you have got any name of God you can chant that. Not that you have to chant Hare Krishna if you have got any other name you can chant. By chanting the holy name of God gradually your dirty things within the heart will be cleansed and you will see properly your constitutional position and then you will act accordingly and then your life will be happy and prosperous. This is the sum and substance of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to preach this culture all over the world not only by this chanting Hare Krishna mantra but those who are philosophers, scientists they can read our books. We have got 60 volumes of books like this to make people understand what is Kṛṣṇa. So, don’t think that it is a sentimental movement if one is very highly educated, advanced in science and philosophy they can understand this movement by reading this book. Otherwise it is very simple, chant Hare Krishna mantra and gradually you understand the whole thing. Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya glories jagat guru! (Offer obeisances) Chandanācārya: If the press has any questions? Press (1): (indistinct) . . . I have a question . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the meaning. Can I ask you what is the meaning of the chant? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Chanting means vibrating sound. God is present everywhere so when you chant the holy name of God. These vibrations, this sound vibration is God, so immediately contact with God. Press (1): Thank you. Press (2): Was your trip here a special trip or just a regular trip? Prabhupāda: No, I am going all around the world at least twice in a year. In 1967 I came here, after that several times I have came here. Press (2): You say the Kṛṣṇa was 5000 years ago, the information that I’ve received that the chant which you are using now giving the name of God and I understand the *Vedas* (airport loudspeaker) . . . (indistinct) . . . the information you give. You say it came 5000 years ago, has a man been here longer than that. Has he been practising religion longer than that? Prabhupāda: Well, it existed since millions of years. Press (2): Have they practising the religion before Hare Krishna? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Wherever there is civilised man there must be religion. Press (2): How does one judge . . . (indistinct) . . . is that correct . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: By the history, by the history, by understanding, by studying history, by studying philosophy, by studying science one can understand. One has to become very intelligent, foolish men cannot understand. But you must be very intelligent then you will understand. Press (2): I understood that you say that you are part and parcel. I don’t quite understand what you mean part and parcel of consciousness does that mean? Prabhupāda: Just like the sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of shining particles. Similarly the sun is God and the sunshine particles are living entities. So the sunshine particles are also heat and light and the sun is also heat and light but the small molecules and particles they are very small but the sun is very big. Similarly qualitatively we are one as God is, but God is great, we are very small. Press (2): Okay then if I understand that then when a person dies or leaves hod flesh and soul then. Then he does not necessarily die? Prabhupāda: No. The soul is eternal and God is eternal. The soul is eternal but because we have contact with this material body we are changing body. Just like you change your dress, similarly the soul changes dress and because we do not know what is soul we think that this man is dead. Actually he has not died he is simply changing from one gross body to another gross body that is all. Press (2): He changes to another form at the time . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you will find 8,400,000 forms of life because there are changes from one form to another. Just like here in this meeting you are represented by different dresses. Similarly all these living entities they are represented in different forms but within the form there is spirit soul that is part and parcel of God. Press (2): The man would be interchangeable with animal, or the trees or whatever? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. According to karma , you are given the chance in a human form of body developed consciousness to understand God but if you do not understand God, if you understand dog then you become dog. Otherwise you become God. Press (2): Thank you. ( kīrtana ) (devotees repeat responsively) Leader: namas te sārasvate deve. Devotees: Prabhupāda! *Leader: gaura*-vāṇī-pracāriṇe Devotees: Prabhupāda! Leader: nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi.. Devotees: Prabhupāda! *Leader: pāścātya*-deśa-tāriṇe Devotees: Prabhupāda. Leader: (devotees repeat responsively three times) *Prabhupāda: ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to you Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Offering of obeisances) All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Chandanācārya: Would you like a little prasādam ? Śrīla Prabhupāda: That's alright. Devotee: Thank you for saṅkīrtana Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Devotee: Jaya . (end) Conversation -- October 6, 1972, Berkeley *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . then why you are so much proud of seeing? Therefore Vedānta*-sūtra says, śāstra-cakṣuṣā we have to see through perfect book of knowledge. Not this eyes . . . so our proposition is that Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead the knowledge He has given us is perfect and if we follow this perfect knowledge then everything will be perfect. That is our position. Guest: Svāmī I have a question. You said that quoting the scriptures that in this world all governments are evil. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: You said quoting the scriptures that in this world all men being like śūdras all governments are evil. Are some governments worse than others? Is the communism. Prabhupāda: No all governments even communism. What is that? It's says the same. Guest: What about. Prabhupāda: Voting, voting, so some fools are voting, so what is the value? The process is voting but who is voting? All rascals and fools. That's all. Guest: But some parties like the Jana Sangh. Prabhupāda: No. Guest: They say they are more religious. Prabhupāda: They may say, everyone will say: "My party is very perfect," but we don't accept. Everyone can say, everyone will say that, "I am perfect." But we have got a test because at the present age the politicians are selected by votes. The public is fool and rascals so what they will select? *So therefore either communism or this capitalism, or this ism or that ism it simply requires the names of . . . the same thing that's all. Vedic culture plan is a King, the executive head should be the representative of God. He must be so perfect that he should be. Therefore a King is offered the same respect as to God. Therefore in Sanskrit language it is called naradeva —God in the human form of life, he should be so perfect. And everything is described in our, these literatures. Bhāgavata , how perfect King is working. Just like in India they say, "Ram*-raj." Because Lord Rāmacandra was a perfect King . . . so in English language also you say, "Kingdom of God," but we want kingdom of God without God. So God is perfect and anyone who follows perfect God, he also becomes perfect. So therefore if there is God consciousness in the people in general, then they can select a person nice . . . then there will be good government. Guest (2): Svāmī, if all men are like śūdras then we are all śūdras . Prabhupāda: Yes because there is no education, training. Guest: Then how can there be Svāmīs? Prabhupāda: Well he is not śūdra , he is master. Svāmī means master and śūdra means servant. Svāmī, actually Svāmī means who is master and śūdra means servant you should understand what is Svāmī and master means master of the senses. Just like we are teaching our students to become Svāmī. How? No illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat eating, no gambling. So they are being trained to become master because everyone is servant of these principles. So Svāmī does not mean śūdra , a śūdra cannot become Svāmī because śūdra is a servant. Servant means servant of the senses. Now these boys are being trained to become master they do not even smoke they do not drink tea, they do not drink coffee. At least they have become masters of these things and gradually they will become master more and more. If you can control your tongue then you can control your belly and then you control your genitals a straight line. If you cannot control your tongue how you can become master of the senses. Therefore in the śāstra it is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Brs. 1.2.234). "God realisation is possible when one engages his senses, especially the tongue." Now it will be surprising when you hear that by controlling the tongue we can realise God. But that is a fact. Therefore we are teaching controlling the tongue, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . The controlling business begins from the tongue. Therefore these things are prohibited. Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. And although one who is already conversant with this controlling he is not a śūdra he is a Svāmī. Guest (3): We are at the present time in a real reality in regard, spirit souls we are fragments of the Godhead of Kṛṣṇa God. Our goal in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to encourage eventually to this Godhead and at the present time we are recognisably in a state of māyā here and are being governed by the three states, three states of matter. What was the reason according to you why man has lost this perfection in the beginning? In other words it would seem to me that if in this pristine stage when we would be as it were with Kṛṣṇa why would we ever want to depart at all. Prabhupāda: It means. Guest (3): Departing and getting involved. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): In this māyā the illusory matter. Prabhupāda: It is not very difficult just like one falls victim of some disease and again by treatment he can recover from the disease and these Europeans and American boys they are becoming recovered, by the disease, illicit sex, meat eating, gambling, intoxication. So they fell victim to these similarly we have got little independence we can fall down and we can raise ourselves up, become elevated. So it is to be understood that as by desiring to be elevated we become free from all these unwanted things, similarly by desiring we fell down. And by desiring I can elevate similarly, so it is to be understood that by desiring I fell down. So desire is there, so I can fall down, I can raise myself and that requires association. So your question is how we fell down? Because you desired it. Now when I desired, how I desired? Then you have to trace out the whole history but you are eternal when it has begun it is very difficult to find but it is a fact because you desired to Lord it over the material nature we have fallen down. Here everyone is trying to Lord it over that is the tendency, this is material life. *I'm trying to Lord it over, you're trying also to Lord it over then there is competition, then fight. There is no submission. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's instruction He says: "You nonsense first of all submit," sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja ( BG 18.66). That is the beginning because everyone is puffed up he has no submission. So that is the difficulty. We become puffed up we want to imitate God. Now one so and so is denying God we are thinking that by inventing something we are saying: "What is the use of God?" What the scientists say? Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He's a scientist. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They said God didn't create the universe. Scientists discovered the physical rules governing these laws of motion of the planetary motions and therefore they say God is not necessary to ah. To investigate for the wellbeing of the human being so therefore God is not necessary. Prabhupāda: Is that a very scientific proposal? God created now we are trying to know the laws therefore there is no necessity of God. Is that very sound proposal? What do you think? Guest (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes thank you. It is called demoniac love . . . yes? Guest (4): Is it possible for a member of the śūdra class . . . caste to become a brāhmin ? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Just like any ordinary man can be educated and he can become a doctor or a scientist or a Doctor of philosophy. Guest (4): So there is a kind of democratisation. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, guṇa*-karma, karma means by action. Just like you are educated nicely as a chemist when you act as a chemist then you are well educated. If you simply know chemistry and do not act then you are not a chemist. *So one should be trained up and at the same time will act then we will accept. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , your question, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yonayaḥ born in sinful life, pāpa-yonayaḥ lower class, low born pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo śūdrās tathāvaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Even women, śūdras , vaiśyas if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he goes. *So there is no bar, there is no hindrance everyone can take it up it is open to everyone. So everyone should be given the chance to become a perfect brāhmin —that is brahminical culture—that is Vedic culture. Because the human life is a chance to understand God in the lower animal life there is no such chance. A dog cannot be educated to understand God but a man can be. So if this human life is misused in the matter of animal propensities then it is a great loss. His propensities for understanding God should be aroused that is real education, āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat paśubhir narāṇām. Eating sleeping sexual life and defence this is common to the animals and the human beings. This special significance of human life that he can understand God, the animal cannot. So if a human being is not given chance to understand God then he remains animal. So there is no such chance in the University education and there is no department of knowledge to understand God. You know so. Guest (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda can you explain how we can become more Kṛṣṇa conscious? Without wearing a dhoti and shaving our heads? Prabhupāda: Well, dhotis these are not very important things. Guest (5): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are taking it I never said that you take dhoti . You can remain in your coat and pants that . . . what is that? But naturally they have simplified the methodology they can lie down on the floor they don't require any furniture they don't require any costly dress. Any dress will satisfy them any simple food will satisfy them. The process is we should decrease our artificial material necessities of life and save time to understand God that is the value of life. By gorgeously dressing you do not become a big man by knowledge you become a big man. Guest (6): Svāmī, in the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is a governing board committee and you have as the Svāmī are directing this board and presidents of temples. Do you think this is a good organisation for a country? Prabhupāda: What bad you think? What is the bad in it? Guest (6): (laughs) Prabhupāda: If it is not bad then it is good. Guest (6): So there should be a Svāmī rather than a president as head of the Centre? Prabhupāda: Well, I explained Svāmī means the master of the senses. If one becomes president and remains a servant of the senses what is the value? What is the value? He may become president to the fools but he is a servant of the senses that's all. So my request is that you are all leading personalities of the society kindly try to understand the value of our movement and cooperate that is the. It is a very good scientific movement authorised and very simple also . . . And even a child can take part in it. Actually when we chant and dance in our temple many small children about three or four years, they also do it. They also offer obeisances, offer flowers and that is not going in vain. There from the very beginning of their life they are getting the association of good father, mother, devotees they are not eating anything which is prohibited. So it is acceptable even by a child. There is no need of having advanced education anyone can, striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyās. Anyone. Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, these are uncivilised. Kirāta, Hūṇa, Āndhra, Pulinda, Pulkaśa, Ābhīra, Śumbha, kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā (BG 9.33) and what to speak of brāhmins those whose background is pious life. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā , anyone can take up, there is no difficulty. *Guest (7): Svāmī, I understand that in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgwat that there is a part of it called the Uddhava-gītā which is supposed to be the essence of it. Can you tell us a little bit about that thing? *Prabhupāda: Brahmā was talking with Kṛṣṇa as Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa was replying. Similarly Uddhava was asking and Kṛṣṇa was replying. Therefore that portion of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is called Uddhava-gītā and this portion of Mahābhārata is called Arjuna-gītā. Gītā means song so the song sung by the Supreme Lord. So the Supreme Lord was teaching Uddhava how to execute devotional service. *That is pure, here in the Arjuna*-gītā Kṛṣṇa is teachings so many things, karma , jñāna , yoga and at last bhakti also but in Uddhava-gītā there is simply instruction of devotion. There is no other affair, karma , jñāna , yoga . Karma means fruitive activities as we are ordinarily engaged, we work and get some remuneration that is called karma . Jñāna means when one understand that what I'm getting by this process and working and getting so many benefits. What is the actual ultimate goal of my life? That is jñāna . Karma jñāna and yoga —is a little higher, the find out the absolute truth and bhakti means to know the absolute truth and our relationship with Him and actually be engaged in His service that is called bhakti . . . yes? *Guest (8): Svāmī . . . the 14*-year-old boy Guru Mahārāji. Prabhupāda: Well I do not . . . (indistinct) . . . he can understand I do not. Guest (8): Can I ask you a question. Prabhupāda: So far that I have heard he says that there is no need of books. So you are all educationists without books what is his knowledge? He does not recognise books, what does he say? Devotee: He says: "You can do away with books." Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do away with books. So you can understand his value. There is no use of arguing. If somebody of you says that, "I have never attended school or college, I am now a scientist." So would it be appropriate? *Śāstra*-cakṣusā , knowledge has to be received through books but the books must be perfect but you cannot say that, "Without books I have become perfect." That is not possible. Guest (8): He claims to be an avatāra . Prabhupāda: We you can also refute that, that is. But who is accepting it. What is the meaning of avatāra , do you know? Guest (8): I'm asking you a question. Prabhupāda: If you are asking then he is a fool. That's my . . . Devotee: (laughs) Guest (9): Do you consider yourself an interpreter of scriptures rather than a source of new revelations? Prabhupāda: No I'm not an interpreter of God given revelations I'm speaking as it is said that's all. Guest (9): How? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that he is God. *"I am the origin of everything." Then the Vedānta*-sūtra says that, "the absolute truth means the origin of everything." So . . . and Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the origin of everything by great stalwarts. Brahmā in the Brahma-saṁhitā he says: "The cause of all causes." So we have to follow these authoritative statements in the śāstra . . . (indistinct) Guest (10): So . . . (indistinct) . . . have been a Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement without Lord Caitanya? *Prabhupāda: Yes Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement was there since the 5,000 years when Kṛṣṇa appeared. In the battlefield of Kurukṣetra where he instructed Bhagavad*-gītā . Caitanya Mahāprabhu revived it very nicely. Just like we have introduced this movement in your country it does not mean that it did not exist before. It was existing . . . so is there any other question? Yes? Guest (11): Do you see the Kṛṣṇa movement coming out in any different form in Western culture? As it was in India . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No it is not different form. The form is the same Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "You give up all other engagements and just surrender unto Me." These people are taking that principle, they are giving up all other engagements and surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, this is not nothing new it is the same old story. *Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). "You always think of me," man-manā , "you become my devotee," mad-bhakto, mad-yājī , "you worship me," and you offer your obeisances unto me. So we are teaching this point the same thing. We always think of Kṛṣṇa, They are doing that. And they are worshipping Kṛṣṇa in the temple. You have seen our temple in San Francisco? We have got a temple. So many temples, in Los Angeles. Everywhere we will be very much pleased to see our temple activities. So they are becoming devotees, they are worshipping, they are offering obeisances so where is the new thing? It is all ordered by Kṛṣṇa, there is nothing. We are doing that and we are preaching that, there is no difference between our preaching and this, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere ṛṣi . We have to do first of all then we can preach otherwise what is the meaning of preaching? Guest (12): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how big is your movement and how fast is it growing? *Prabhupāda: That you can calculate. I came here in nineteen hundred and sixty*-five then I started this movement. In one year I could not do anything, I had no place. I started this movement in nineteen hundred and sixty-six in July. Then I came ill then I returned back in 1967 June. Then again I came back in 1968. So we are trying to push on this movement we have got over 100 branches all over the world and many thousands of disciples like these dedicated. We have published about 20 books like this and we are selling books, on the sales proceeds we are living. We have no other income. All our expenditure throughout the whole society—at least $70,000 per month. And these are the samples of the students you can talk with them, you can see. There is no hide and seek, so you can judge . . . Host: Thank you very much. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna. (Sound of rearranging the furniture) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh yes, chant . . . (indistinct) . . . chanting. (laughs) Chant Hare Krishna. You have no karatālas ? There please chant with the clapping. Devotee: *Prabhupāda: ( prema*-dhvanī ) Thank you very much. Devotees: All glories to Śrī Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga. Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Offering of obeisances) *Chandanācārya: His Divine Grace is going to be speaking again tomorrow night in San Francisco at the "Hall of Flowers" at 8 pm. Golden gate park, 9th Avenue . . . (indistinct) . . . Sunday night here in Berkeley at the Martin Luther King Auditorium 7.30 pm . . . (indistinct) . . . you're all welcome. And Saturday and Sunday morning at our temple in San Francisco at 7 am there will be Bhāgavata class. Teachings from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . Hare Krishna (break) (end) Conversation A -- October 24, 1972, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: Now in Vṛndāvana here is one temple . . . there is likely that they cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose everything is in our hand. How to manage? Therefore accepting the main temple, you have to . . . how to manage. This is between ourself. Suppose if Bharatpur Mahārāja after some time . . . (indistinct) . . . in this temple also, I am making the important decisions. (break) . . . is not in favor of Indian parties. So if they also come in our hands, it has to be . . . (indistinct) Now, supposing you have got three, then how you to manage? Simply taking over is no good. Because they are giving, means they cannot manage. That property is very valuable property, Bharatpur place. So they are thinking of giving it over to us because it is not being managed. Their position is here. So up to now we are strong. But if our, what is called, cooperation becomes slack, then our temple also the same thing will be. That, the . . . (indistinct) . . . that I am staying here for the last ten or twelve years and paying, but the property belongs to the Deity. And there are several sevaites. Sometimes somebody starts noting that you neglect; sometimes somebody takes money in other. So what is my position? . . . (indistinct) . . . the renter may decide what is my position. Actually, in terms of the renter, I am tenant for these two rooms, and that also . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . for some place it becomes difficult. Find out that man's name . . . (indistinct) . . . of course, I have got many . . . (indistinct) . . . but it is sentiment. We have established . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose we beget the management for the whole . . . (indistinct) . . .? How we shall manage? Gurudāsa: Not only how, but who. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Not how, as well as who. Because how is not . . . (break) Prabhupāda: The mouse are afraid of cats. So they held a meeting . . . (indistinct) . . . then the resolution was passed that, "Let there be a bell in the neck of the cat fixed up, so that when he is coming, the bell will ring, and we shall know, 'Now he is coming.' " Immediately it was passed. The first resolution was passed. Then how to bell? Who will go to bell? (laughs) *Because anyone who will go to bell the cat, he will be devoured. So the plan*-making that "This will be managed like this," there is a resolution, bells, fixing of a bell. Now go in and fix up the bell. Gurudāsa: It seems that Bhavānanda Prabhu is the best manager. Prabhupāda: No, manager anyone can become, but manpower . . . we have no Indian members chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gurudāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how much men we shall import? And whether it is feasible by importing men to manage this facility? Gurudāsa: Now there are . . . there seems to be a surplus of men in Bombay, from all the reports I've gotten. So some could come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: But . . . Prabhupāda: If we remain here and attract foreigners to come . . . Gurudāsa: The manpower will come from them. Prabhupāda: Not only visitors . . . (indistinct) . . . those who are spiritually inclined. In that way we may get opportunity. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The another point is that when we manage these things, there are many guṇḍās in Vṛndāvana; they will try to create some trouble. Just like . . . (indistinct) . . . you were present? This boy was fighting with one man. You were not present? Gurudāsa: No. What time was it? Prabhupāda: When the minister came. Gurudāsa: No. I was not here at that time. Prabhupāda: Sometimes it becomes quarrel. (break) (end) Conversation A -- October 25, 1972, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: You have not met? Gurudāsa: Yes, I have met him. At Janmāṣṭamī two years ago at New Vrindavan. *Pañca*-draviḍa: He is coming in on the third shift, I think. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Pañca*-draviḍa: They will . . . Girirāja and Bhavānanda and them, they will probably be in the third shift, depending on how the land deal goes, whether it is settled by then. Prabhupāda: It must be settled. Not whether. Therefore I have asked so many people to go there. It must be settled. *Pañca*-draviḍa: The last situation I had heard was that everybody was agreeable, that Nair himself was agreeable and that everything was proceeding, but it was in the hands of the Municipality, and that was going so slow, and that Nair himself, he is saying so many dubious things on the outside, but in complete agreement once you step into a room with him. So we are not so much sure. It's more or less in the hands of the Municipality, but who knows what is going on behind the table. Something like that. (break) Prabhupāda: Take a little breakfast? Gurudāsa: They said you wanted to see me? Prabhupāda: Huh? Oh, about that typing. Gurudāsa: Ācchā . (break) Prabhupāda: Oh, you have secured that house in London. Gurudāsa: Oh, jaya! All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Berkshire Palace. Devotee (1): Berkshire Palace, very impressive. Gurudāsa: Duke of Windsor's castle. Devotee (1): He's the king there, right? The queen's husband. Prabhupāda: He was to be the king, but he rejected for that one common girl. So the ministry asked him that, "You have to give up this girl or you have to give up your throne." So he preferred to give up his throne. And the present queen's father, his second brother, he was made king, King George VI. Otherwise, this Duke of Windsor . . . when he refused to become the king, he became the Duke of Windsor and he was given this Berkshire Palace. Gurudāsa: He also is the one who has the Windsor Palace? Prabhupāda: No, Windsor Palace is the queens. That is some seasonal residence. This Buckingham Palace is office. Actually, for residential palace, the Windsor Palace. Windsor Palace? Gurudāsa: Windsor, yes. Prabhupāda: That palace we see in passing. Gurudāsa: Yes, large palace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Windsor. Prabhupāda: Berkshire Palace is also nearby. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is nearer to John's Tittenhurst. What is that? Gurudāsa: Tittenhurst Park. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Park. (to Sarasvatī) Come on, come on. Come on. So Sarasvatī devī, we have got good news, your father is coming tomorrow. It is all right? Śyāmasundara is coming tomorrow. You like? Gurudāsa: She says she has four fathers and mothers. Prabhupāda: Four fathers? Gurudāsa: And mothers. Devotee (1): Who are they? Sarasvatī: (indistinct) . . . (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: Four fathers and four mothers? Sarasvatī: Four fathers and . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara is coming tomorrow. Sarasvatī: I told her. Prabhupāda: You have told her? Sarasvatī: I told her that she's . . . Śyāmasundara is coming very soon. Prabhupāda: Ohhhh, that's nice. (break) . . . men Monday? Acyutānanda: We can send them, but they won't go. Prabhupāda: So if you can make somebody agree, then he is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow. Acyutānanda: But no one will agree to leave you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Acyutānanda: Letter from the press, regarding my songbook. Prabhupāda: Oh. Acyutānanda: So I don't know what to do. Nobody would like to go, to leave you. We would like to go, but we wouldn't want to miss your classes. Gurudāsa: That is so. Prabhupāda: So you can make one condition, that if you return us, we can go at eight or nine, but you must return us by four. Then we can go. Make this condition. Instead of saying no, make some condition. Acyutānanda: It's the 29th? Gurudāsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: And he's coming tomorrow? Prabhupāda: I have asked him to come day after tomorrow. He comes generally at about ten. Acyutānanda: But I heard that last year we went and it was not a very big function. (break) I wrote that letter to this Lalitānanda about this Jāhnavī . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Acyutānanda: Jāhnavī*-sampradāya. *Prabhupāda: Jāhnavī*-sampradāya? Oh, yes, yes. Acyutānanda: So they don't want to put it in Back to Godhead because I used the word "infantile, naive, undereducated and incompetent," and that's considered most ungentlemanly. Devotee (2): They do not like publishing . . . (indistinct) . . . articles. Acyutānanda: But Prabhupāda says fools and rascals and . . . Devotee (2): I have written so many articles in the past two years, and one has been published in two years. Prabhupāda: For Back to Godhead ? Devotee (2): Back to Godhead , yes. They say no one can understand them. *Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . from Subala dāsa Mahārāja that they have received his letter on September 16th and I have requested Karandhara to send him one Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is . Devotee (2): Karandhara has already said no. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: Boi ta kothay pelen? (Where have you got the book?) Guest: . . . Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Mahārāja. Prabhupada: Oh, ta amake dekhaben. (Oh, then you show it to me.) (break) Prabhupada: . . . janmasthan. (. . . birthplace.) Guest: . . . pashe. (. . . near it.) Prabhupada: Huh? Guest: . . . pashe (. . . near it.) Prabhupada: Accha. (Okay.) Guest: Ek sho panch number . . . (At number 105 . . .) (break) (end) Conversation -- November 1, 1972, Vrndavana Acyutānanda: Gauracandra Gosvāmī is telling Prabhupāda that ah, that it started raining just so that the kīrtana would happen in front of Dāmodara and then it stopped raining so that we could go back into the samādhi grounds. Actually he was just trying to get us out of the front courtyard. Prabhupāda said: "Wherever there is . . . whenever there is kīrtana it is in front of Lord Dāmodara." Ānandamoya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I would like to ask you if it is possible to receive initiation from you. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that question? Devotee: Again? Louder. Ānandamoya: I would like to ask you if it is possible if you can give me initiation? Prabhupāda: Initiation. Devotee: Initiation. Ānandamoya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming? Ānandamoya: I have been six months in Calcutta, my home is in France and I met some members of the society some of the disciples in Bihar. I was touring in India with . . . (indistinct) . . . for one year about and fortunately I met some members there near . . . (indistinct) . . . Madhura. Madhuriya . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Madhupur. Ānandamoya: Madhupur. Guru Kṛipa: Madhuroy. Prabhupāda: Madurai. Guru Kṛipa: It was a large pandal function. Prabhupāda: He has come with you? Guru Kṛipa: Yes we met him there. (break) Yaśodānandana: . . . with us to Cuttack and Māyāpura. And he lived for three. He tried for some time then he followed all the principles and regulations for the last six months and he shaved up his head after a few days and he has been keeping on regularly doing preaching outside every day. Prabhupāda: So you recommend him? Gurudasa: Yes we recommend him. Yaśodānandana: (indistinct) . . . serious. Prabhupāda: Then . . . (indistinct) Gurudasa: Bhavānanda has also recommended him. Yaśodānandana: Also . . . (indistinct) . . . has been initiated by Your Divine Grace a few months ago or a year ago and I think he's very much fit for brāhmin . . . (indistinct) . . . Gāyatrī. Prabhupāda: So where is he? Yaśodānandana: A tall boy, Pāñcajanya very tall, tall boy, Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: he's the tall boy Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: very serious . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah where he is now? Yaśodānandana: He is now (break) Mahāṁsa: Can you tell us something about the philosophy of . . . is there any difference in the philosophies of the four sampradāyas ? *Prabhupāda: Not very. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has summarised all the Vaiṣṇava philosophies in acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva . Simultaneously one and difference. Some of the philosophers they say māyā and Kṛṣṇa they are different. Some of them says māyā although different is attached with . . . is Kṛṣṇa's . . . *Māyā is Kṛṣṇa's energy therefore different and non*-different. Śuddha-advaita, dvaita-advaita, viśiṣṭa-advaita , Madhvācārya dvaita-vāda. Then Rāmānujācārya viśiṣṭa-advaita , Nimbārka dvaita-advaita , in this way there are . . . practically all of them are worshippers of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa. There is not very much difference but little distinction. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu has summarised all of them acintya-bhedābheda-tattva —inconceivable one and different simultaneously. Māyā is different from Kṛṣṇa at the same time not different from Kṛṣṇa. Because māyā has no separate existence, therefore not different from Kṛṣṇa. But māyā when she plays differently . . . different from Kṛṣṇa. Just like jail department is the criminal department of the government. Therefore this department is not different from the government but that does not mean the government is criminal. This is the way to understand it. Criminal department is not different from government but that does not mean government is criminal. Similarly māyā is not different from Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is under māyā . Mahāṁsa: He is controlling māyā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got connection with māyā as controller and we have got connection with māyā as controlled, Mahāṁsa: Controlled. *Prabhupāda: . . . that is the difference. In the broader sense nothing is different from Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na ( cā ) haṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4) "Everything is resting on Me but I am not there." *The same example, the criminal department he is resting on the government but the government is not criminal. This is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva , simultaneously one and different—inconceivable by us. That viśiṣṭādvaita , Rāmānujācārya, he says that, "God māyā and the jīva all together are the absolute truth." That is called viśiṣṭādvaita . *Mahāṁsa: That is the Rāmānujācārya*-sampradāya? *Prabhupāda: Yes Rāmānuja. And Madhvācārya dvaita*-vāda , "God is different from jīvas and māyā ," that is dvaita-vāda . And someone dvaita-advaita , different and non-different like acintya-bhedābheda . In this way different ācāryas have explained the same thing in a very explicit way according to their . . . but all of them are Vaiṣṇava philosophy. *Acyutānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are all these sampradāyas still bona*-fide at the present time? Prabhupāda: No some of them . . . (indistinct) . . . now Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas there are many Māyāvādīs. (laughs) There are many Māyāvādīs, this Bābājīs they are almost Māyāvādīs. Sahajiyās. Pañcadraviḍa: In the Bhāgavata it is said that, "Just as the birds fly in the air according to their capacity so the great sages may explain the absolute truth according to their realisation." So is this why the different ācāryas they explain different concepts? Prabhupāda: Not different concepts, in different ways. Pañcadraviḍa: Is it because of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It can be understandable that I have already explained. That the viśiṣṭādvaita, māyā jīva and Kṛṣṇa are taken together, they are one. Diversity in unity, they are all one but there is diversity. The University department, the criminal department, the judicial department there are so many departments of the government but altogether they are one. This is viśiṣṭādvaita . (break) the Vedic literature say, eko brahma dvitīya nāsti , "There is only one Brahma." sarvaṁ hy etad brahma (Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad 2), "Everything is Brahma." It is not difficult to understand that this is also government but government is not there. Not that because that if you say this criminal department is also government, that does not mean that the whole governments are criminal. Government is not at all criminal they have nothing to do with the criminality but the department is government. What do you think? How do you adjust? Pañcadraviḍa: Well Mahāprabhu he has explained it. Prabhupāda: Ah. Pañcadraviḍa: Very clearly. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the government maintains the criminal department it should not be understood that government is under criminal department, because Kṛṣṇa maintains māyā that does not mean that Kṛṣṇa is under . . . māyāṁ ca tad*-apāśrayām ( SB 1.7.4). Vyāsadeva saw māyā and Kṛṣṇa together. The māyā is the backside, apāśrayām. Adharma, adharma —irreligiosity is described as the backside of Kṛṣṇa. As I have got my backside, dharma , adharma . The front side of Kṛṣṇa is called dharma , the backside of Kṛṣṇa is adharma . That means adharma is also there in Kṛṣṇa and then . . . because adharma is also maintained by Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is not adharma . *(break) Kṛṣṇa is not adharma the Māyāvādīs philosophers say: "There is no difference between māyā and Kṛṣṇa." There is so many different philosophical opinions but we take Caitanya Mahāprabhu's conclusion: acintya*-bhedābheda , simultaneously one and different. Because māyā is maintained by Kṛṣṇa therefore there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa and māyā , but still Kṛṣṇa is not under māyā . What is the difficulty to understand? Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda when . . . Prabhupāda: Another example can be given that now there is darkness but the sun is also there, within this universe the sun is there and the darkness is there but sun is not under darkness. At the present moment the darkness is there and the sun is also there. This darkness means absence of sun so it is relative with sun because there is no sun it is darkness. Therefore the darkness is dependent on sun. The sun is not dependent on the darkness, because there is some barrier, some obstacles, for passing the sunlight on this earth. This earth is now dark, so the darkness has no independent existence. In other words because the sunlight is checked therefore there is darkness. So darkness is not important neither darkness, this darkness can cover the sun. Otherwise darkness is also there and sun is also there but sun is not affected by darkness. We are affected a portion of the fractional part of Kṛṣṇa's body part and parcel, is covered by darkness. They are under material conditions but Kṛṣṇa is never under material conditions. The Māyāvādī philosophers will say: "Because Kṛṣṇa has come before us". (door opens) (aside) What is that? Indian Devotee: (indistinct Hindi) (break) Prabhupāda: "Because Kṛṣṇa has come here therefore He is also in darkness," that is Māyāvādī philosophy. Suppose the governor goes to inspect the jail the business of governor is also prison, because he has come into the jail. So what is the difference between him and them? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11), immediately he is already mūḍhāḥ and he becomes more mūḍhāḥ . He does not know, just like Dr. Radhakrishna says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa but something within Kṛṣṇa." Because he thinks that Kṛṣṇa is just like us. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa and still he dares to write comment on Kṛṣṇa's saying. He becomes more mūḍhāḥ , instead of becoming enlightened he becomes mūḍhāḥ . Without knowing Kṛṣṇa he describes Kṛṣṇa. So we should not take, what is Kṛṣṇa from such mūḍhāḥ . . . (indistinct) . . . Sanātana Gosvāmī has forbidden—not to hear from the avaiṣṇava who does not know Kṛṣṇa. " Avaiṣṇava cannot describe Kṛṣṇa. Not . . . or neither by his description one can understand Kṛṣṇa." Yaśodānandana: What about that Ramakrishna? When I was in South India I met many people they seemed to place so much faith upon him. But seeing this philosophy that they are propounding it is not so much sound. This Ramakrishna, what is the fate of such kind of person? What is the actual fate? Destination? Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna? Yaśodānandana: Hm. Prabhupāda: Mission? Yaśodānandana: Hm. Prabhupāda: So if you go to a quock . Devotees: (laugh) . . . (indistinct) Guru Kṛipa: Quack? (laugher) Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune there are many doctors but . . . if you still go to a quack. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? That is your misfortune, why do you go to a quack? If there are so many doctors. (laughter) Yaśodānandana: He has misled so many people. Prabhupāda: Everyone, misleading is there already but why should you be misled? Yaśodānandana: I am not misled. Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the person who is misled. And his question is, "What is the value of this." You are misled, he is misleader, what to talk about this? And if we talk and if we tell the truth then people will be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye (Hitopadeśa 3.4), "You cannot pacify a rascal by giving good instruction. He will be more angry. Better avoid." Gurudasa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudasa: You said: "By his description he cannot be understood." Do you mean by adhokṣaja ? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudasa: You said: "By his description he cannot be understood." Prabhupāda: By his description. Gurudasa: You were just saying that. Prabhupāda: Adhokṣaja means you cannot describe, by your sense perception. We describe that this is a thing, we can describe this is white this is . . . solid, this is just like, so many things we can say by seeing by tasting. Kṛṣṇa is not like that, therefore His name is Adhokṣaja . Because you can describe this things material because it is material, but Kṛṣṇa is not material, therefore by our material senses we cannot describe. Whatever we are describing about Kṛṣṇa we are describing from Kṛṣṇa. Not that by our knowledge we are describing—therefore He is Adhokṣaja . He cannot be described by my blunt senses. That is not. We describe Kṛṣṇa as He describes Himself. We don't describe by our sense perception. We say Kṛṣṇa is the supreme because we understand from Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the supreme."Now argument may be that everyone can say: "I am supreme." Then everyone should be accepted by his word, no. It must be confirmed by the ācāryas that is paramparā system. Kṛṣṇa says: "Supreme" and Kṛṣṇa is confirmed as supreme by Vyāsadeva, by Nārada, by the ācāryas , by Caitanya so we are poor fellow we understand in this way. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says "I am supreme," and He is accepted by our predecessor ācāryas so where is the difficulty? Hm? Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I raise a question? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: In the fourth chapter in the fifth Canto it explains about Vyāsadeva's appearance and it says that when Vyāsa appeared there was an interchange of the millennium where the third millennium appeared before the second, ah and I never understood that. *Prabhupāda: Dvāpara . dvāparānte , dvāparānte means in the beginning of the Dvāpara*-yuga. Dvāparānte . . . (indistinct) Devotee: It says that, that ah, there was an interchange of the millennium's. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: Where the third millennium appeared before the second millennium. Prabhupāda: Hm . . . yes. Devotee: When Vyāsa made his appearance. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . dvāpara means the second millennium, and tretā means the third millennium. So in the beginning of dvāpara He appeared, ante. The example is given, just like the tree begins from the root and the top of the tree is called top—but actually there is no top, the top is the root. So it is beginning from there, in this way there are some descriptions. (aside) How long it will remain so? No light? (break) *Devotee: . . . the founder of Raghu*-vaṁśa so I just wanted to. I was wondering, you know we chant this prayer from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, rāma rāghava, rāma rāghava . Prabhupāda: Rāma rāghava. Devotee: Rāma rāghava, rāma rāghava. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Devotee: That rāghava does that mean raghu*-vaṁśa. raghu dynasty? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāghava, raghu from raghu rāghava comes. Devotee: So which end Balarāma or Lord Rāmacandra? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Is that prayer to Balarāma or is it to Lord Rāmacandra? The Rāma of the raghu ? Prabhupāda: No when you say rāma rāghava , means Lord Rāmacandra. Therefore it is said rāma rāghava. Devotee: rāma rāghava Acyutānanda: In Hyderabad that was a conjecture that Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. Prabhupāda: Ah. (aside) Why don't you open that? Eh? Hm? Acyutānanda: That Hare Rāma does it mean Rādhā Ramana or does it mean Balarāma? Prabhupāda: No. Rāma. Hare Rāma. Rāma means—who enjoys, enjoyer, ramante. Ramante yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani iti rāma (Cc Madhya 9.29). Rāma means Ramaṇa also—enjoyer. Rāma means Lord Rāmacandra, Rāma means Balarāma so different positions we can accept. Different. Devotee: Also someone . . . *Prabhupāda: You say Rādhā*-Ramaṇa. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You can say Rādhā*-Rāma—the same meaning. Rādhā-Ramaṇa or Rādhā-Rāma now if even Lord Rāma can come Rādhā. *Acyutānanda: Many people say that Rādhārānī does not appear in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, there is no mention. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. (break) I once heard you explain to somebody where this is mentioned exactly. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Ārādhyate, anayārādhyate , when the gopīs saw that Kṛṣṇa had been separated with Rādhārānī then they understood that She worships Kṛṣṇa more than anyone. So the gopī who worships Kṛṣṇa, satisfies Kṛṣṇa more than others that is Rādhārānī. Ārādhate, ārādhyate it is Rādhā, Rādhā, ārādhyate . Devotee: Hmm . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So the gopī who worships Rādhārānī more than the other gopīs he sees Rādhārānī. So why, how can you say that there is no mention of Rādhārānī? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We have to follow. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not some of the people, we follow the Gosvāmīs the ācāryas . (whispering) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about three months I wrote to you about a man who wanted to donate some land to us in Bihar? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: About 25 acres. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: He's just written to me again today about that. He says: "My dear Śrī Swamiji, I received your letter dated the 21st of September 1972 along with the documents enclosed there with. I send you my constitution rules, regulations, memorandum of association . . . Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: . . . tax exemptions form. I will be extremely happy to donate land for construction of the temple, its upkeep and devotional activities of your society. The government of Bihar has in the meanwhile promulgated an ordinance banning transfer of lands. I however hope that the difficulties created by this ordinance through Lord Kṛṣṇa's grace can be overcome. The land can be transferred with the permission of the collector Sahabad but some one on behalf of the society will have to approach him for this commission. I would be obliged if you could send me a list of life members of the society. Could you also send me a copy of the latest annual statement of income and expenditures of your . . . of the society. This will enable me to have some idea of the society's financial position and it's activities. Yours in the service of the Lord, L. Dayal." Prabhupāda: First of all find out man, who is managing there? Devotee: That is the problem. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can have many lands like that . . . 25 acres of land? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: We can accept land anywhere provided we have got bona*-fide preachers. That is our mission, we can start a centre anywhere provided we can preach. That is our mission, it is not our mission to own some land. What we shall do with the land? Devotee: The land would simply be for farming and earning some income . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Anyway. Income is not our mission, our mission is to preach. Income is required to maintain, so suppose we get some land we must be a preaching centre there. Even we do farm we cannot avoid our preaching work. Devotee: This land is situated by a small village it is not a populated area. Prabhupāda: It may be. It may not be a populated here . . . area, but we must have a centre so that people may come there. Devotee: Yes he wants a small temple there so that the local people may come and benefit by the temple activities. Prabhupāda: Therefore we require a preacher. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: At least one two preachers. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then we . . . so who is prepared to go there? And then preach you do not know the language. How you will preach? They won't be able to understand English. Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you will preach? First of all find out a preacher, 1, 2, 3, 4 preachers that's it. Then we can manage. Otherwise what is the use of taking land? Preaching must be there, or are you going to plough on that land? (laughter) Devotee: No. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is the use? Acyutānanda: Jayapatāka. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Jayapatāka Mahārāja has been there. *Prabhupāda: Jayapatāka . . . (indistinct) . . . side*-by-side he is supervising the building construction and at the same time . . . that's nice. But he has not gone there to plough. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is not his business. Acyutānanda: Somebody said Jayapatāka Ali. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughs) who said? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Tamal Kṛṣṇa Goswami. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Ali ? *Acyutānanda: Because all the Mohammedan's there, there name is Ali. And there the culture is agriculturalist. So he is ploughing next to them side*-by-side. So Tamal Kṛṣṇa Goswami said Jayapatāka Ali. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Alī means the gopī . Acyutānanda: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Then Tamal Kṛṣṇa has blessed him to become one of the gopīs. (laughter) Acyutānanda: Yeah. *Gurudasa: Alī*-Kṛṣṇa like Kāliya-Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yeah. Yaśodānandana: What is the diff . . . *Prabhupāda: Jaya rādhā*-mādhava . . . Acyutānanda: One of the Mohammedan farmers there . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: . . . was describing how he met Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. He used to walk into the Mohammedan village and he said when he was a little boy he patted him on the head. Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī patted him on the head. And he said that, "Wherever Bhaktisiddhānta used to sit down it seemed like the whole scenery was centred around him. He was so magnificent." He was telling. He tied up his cloth like a sannyāsī and he showed how he used to walk into the village. "He wouldn't look at anything directly but he would be looking at a distance," he was explaining. Pañcadraviḍa: I understand they liked him very much because he would even take water from the hands of Mohammedan's . . . Prabhupāda: But what is their attitude towards our men? Acyutānanda: Very nice. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Acyutānanda: In fact this Mohammedan's father owned the land which is on Śrīvāsa-āṅgan and he gave it to Bhaktisiddhānta free because they had lots of land at that time. So he gave it to Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda: So they are coming and taking prasādam ? Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Both men and women? Acyutānanda: Yes. They say Hare Kṛṣṇa to us. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. That is our mission chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam and go home. (laughter) Prabhupāda: . . . and if you like you can stay with us, as you like. Acyutānanda: Ah. Devotee: It is very sublime. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: It is very sublime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Before starting this movement I was always thinking that their Communist Party, there are so many political parties and we cannot form any party? Our method is so nice: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa dance and take prasādam . What is the difficulty in forming a party? Hare Kṛṣṇa party, so now it has come in formation to expand this formation. Please come, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa dance and take prasādam . What is the difficulty? And gradually when he is settled up he will understand the philosophy whatever . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning he will not understand. What is that, a mouse? Devotees: A mouse. Yaśodānandana: It sat under your feet then she went away. (laughter) *Pañcadraviḍa: How does a mahā*-bhāgavata see this kind of a mouse? Prabhupāda: A living entity. Pañcadraviḍa: As a part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh yes and actually it is so. He has got a different dress only. Suppose there are many gentlemen we don't see the dress you see so many gentlemen that is all. Don't discriminate them because one has got different dress from another. Is it not? *Similarly, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) paṇḍitāḥ who is learned he sees everyone is Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel but he is playing differently, just like an actor on the stage by different dress playing . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise they are one. Mahāṁsa: When the part and parcel is acting very much in ignorance and suppose like for example it is trying to take away your prasādam or it is trying to bite you or something like that then . . . Prabhupāda: You take care. Pañcadraviḍa: You can defend? Prabhupāda: That's all. But you must see that he is part and parcel. Just like your child suppose he is doing something mischief do you discard him? You take care of him. And you take care that the child may not commit any mischief. That is your duty but you cannot say, "Because this child is creating some disturbance cut his throat." You cannot say that. Mahāṁsa: Whew. So if there are mosquitoes who are troubling. Prabhupāda: Same way. Mahāṁsa: Same . . . Prabhupāda: If there is mosquitoes you have a mosquito carton but you cannot kill them. That is the principal. Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Anyone, you take precautions you have got human brain, you take precaution that they may not create mischief. But they by nature they have got a body of like that—but because they have a different body you cannot kill them. Although it is said when one is an aggressor, you can kill. But these animals although they aggress they have no intelligence. The same example, a child is committing mischief. Because it has no intelligence and because it has no intelligence therefore you cannot kill. That should be our position, these animals even ferocious animals, they are all different parts and parcels of God Kṛṣṇa, you should see like that. But because they are under different . . . if you look they are all divine. So if you know them that they are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa but behave with them differently as far as possible not by killing. Killing means, he has been given a body to undergo the imprisonment for certain time if you kill then you prolong the time he has to again accept that body. You become criminal therefore because you are checking in his business. By nature's way he has been engaged in a certain type of business if you kill, he is not killed but he has to take another body. Therefore you are checking his progress, just like you cannot interfere with anyone prisoner that is criminal. *So many laws of nature, laws of God they are so fine that imperceptibly we are committing so many sinful activities but if you keep yourself surrendered to Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness Kṛṣṇa protects you but you become subjected to criminality, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣya (BG 18.66). *Suppose you are walking on the street you are killing so many animals, but a devotee he is protected by Kṛṣṇa who is non*-devotee is becoming subjected to that criminal action--killing. That is the difference. You are killing also, an ordinary man also killing but you are killing not knowingly, you are going on Kṛṣṇa's business for preaching. So you are killing but because you are going to Kṛṣṇa's business Kṛṣṇa is protecting you from the sinful reaction. That is the difference, but the sinful reaction is there, either the devotee or non-devotee. But the devotee willingly does not do any sinful activity. If there is some sinful activity in the course of his business then he is protected by Kṛṣṇa, that is the difference. Therefore the conclusion is to save oneself from all kinds of nonsense sinful activities one must become Kṛṣṇa consciousness otherwise he is subject to criminality. This is the conclusion. Unless you become Kṛṣṇa conscious he is subject to so many criminal activities he suffers. Even knowingly or unknowingly. So, kṛṣṇa nāma koro bhai ar sab miche, palai bar path nai Yama ache piche. (Oh brother, please chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, there is no escape as Yamarāja is waiting behind.) Yamarāja is noting down, "Ah he has done . . . (indistinct) . . . sinful activities you have to punished." You do not know, just like the police takes note of your car, next day you have to go to the court, "Oh I did not know." And it happened. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So we have no other alternative than to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, otherwise you will be foiled by police actions so many ways, so many times. Tell them frankly. Mahāṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That if you don’t become Kṛṣṇa conscious then your life is doomed. However you may be learned and very scholarly, palai bar path nai Yama ache piche. (There is no escape as Yamarāja is waiting behind.) He is noting down. Devotee: One might say a devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Neither you can commit sinful activities because Kṛṣṇa is . . . Devotee: Sin. Yes. Prabhupāda: No that is also another sin. *Devotee: Aparādha to the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you protection for your criminal activities which are being done in the course of executing Kṛṣṇa's order or unknowingly, that is not your fault. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving protection. *But if you think, "Let me do something criminal for my sense gratification Kṛṣṇa is there he will protect me," oh that is the greatest criminality. Namno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ , that is not excused. Mahāṁsa: Sometimes a devotee falls into māyā , does Kṛṣṇa protect him then? Prabhupāda: Yes. He'll protect. If he is actually . . . but if he is cheating Kṛṣṇa. Mahāṁsa: Knowingly? Prabhupāda: Knowingly, he is going to some sinful activities and he is cheating his spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, "Oh I'm going to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Then that is cheating, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa that is not possible, that is not possible. Mahāṁsa: He is only cheating himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu he wanted to cheat Kṛṣṇa he'll not die, but he cheated himself. He forgot to ask for one benediction that, "I shall not die on the lap of Hiraṇya." (laughter) Devotee: Nṛsiṁhadeva. Prabhupāda: Err . . . Nṛsiṁhadeva. That he forgot. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa made him forgetful, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca . (BG 15.15) While he was speaking playing tricks, Kṛṣṇa played a trick, that he forgot to ask for this benediction, apohanaṁ ca. So this is the explanation, people ask that how Kṛṣṇa makes one forgetful? He has got some business to make him forgetful. It is not without purpose, just like Hiraṇyakaśipu was forgetful to ask this benediction that, "I shall not die even on the lap of Nṛsiṁhadeva." That how you can do? There are so many tricks of Kṛṣṇa and how many you can remember? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Is not possible. Mahāṁsa: (indistinct) . . . on the hand or anywhere I heard. Prabhupāda: But these rascals they think that, "We are more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa." Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is illusion. He is never more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is his position. But he thinks that he is more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is illusion. He thinks that by this way I shall play a trick with Kṛṣṇa but that is impossible. You cannot play a trick with Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. You cannot, you must be very clean and open to Kṛṣṇa's sincere servant that is our business, then all protection will be there. Devotee: What if someone wants to do service to Kṛṣṇa but is it okay for me to do this service if I must exploit my Godbrother? There's no need . . . does it matter if I hurt my Godbrother, if Kṛṣṇa is protecting me, there will not be any reaction? Prabhupāda: Well how can you exploit your Godbrother? He is also engaged in some Kṛṣṇa's business, so how can you exploit? Your Godbrother is not an ordinary human being, he is also serving the Lord. How you can exploit another servitor for your advancement? That is sense gratification. There is no question of exploiting, as soon as there is question of exploiting that is sense gratification. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as exploitation, simply cooperation and appreciation. That is spiritual world. Instead of exploitation there should be exaltation. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: "Oh my Godbrother is so nice, he is doing so much service." This is not envy, in the material world if somebody does something more than oneself, he is envious. "Oh he is doing nice." There is no enviousness there is open acceptance so, "My Godbrother or this devotee is so nice, he is doing so nicely how he can do it?" That is appreciation and exaltation, that is Vaikuṇṭha world. You cannot become envious. Mahāṁsa: Is there also competition in the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mahāṁsa: Competition? Prabhupāda: Yes competition just like here, "Oh . . . (indistinct) . . . this devotee has advanced so much I cannot do, let me follow his footsteps so then I can do." That's not competition. Asun. Kothay chilen etodin? (Please come. Where had you been all these days?) (break) Indian man: . . . asustha. (sick.) Prabhupāda: Buro hoye asche. Sharir sob . . . bolchena. (Getting old. The body is . . . not telling that.) Indian man: Oh. Prabhupāda: Khali Rupa gosvamir mato ekta choto kapar porlei rupanuga hoy na. (You don't become Rupanuga just by wearing a short cloth like Rupa Goswami.) Indian man: Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Tader ye samasta katha seguli sob mante hoy. (You need to follow their instructions.) Indian man: Mante hoy. (Yes, I need to follow.) Prabhupāda: Tobe rupanuga hoy. (Then you become Rupanuga.) Indian man: . . . (indistinct Bengali) (break) Prabhupāda: Er chobi ache. (I have his photo.) (break) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Besh bhalo. (Very good.) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Eije . . . ei Philippine er dol. (The group from the Philippines.) Indian man: Huh. Prabhupāda: Era juto sob . . . tin mile . . . chere esche . . . ora. (All the shoes . . . three miles . . . left here . . . it's they.) Indian man: Tomar meye . . . (indistinct) . . . Yamuna athaba Mahaprabhu. (Your daughter . . . (indistinct) . . . Yamuna or Mahaprabhu.) Prabhupāda: Huh. Indian man: Yamunar oi par tay sabai khub sundar sundar. (On the other side of Yamuna all their faces are beautiful) . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Sakole sundar. (Everyone is beautiful.) (break) Prabhupāda: Sometime maybe. Gurudasa: Alternating current. Prabhupāda: Neh. Gurudasa: Alternating on and off. Indian man: Prabhupader photo (The photo of Prabhupāda) . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: What? Indian Devotee: Photo, photo. Of Prabhupāda . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Have you got any photograph of my Guru Mahārāja? Indian Devotee: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Galpo ache, yes no very good. Janen? (Do you know there is a story—yes, no, very good?) Indian Devotee: Han. Prabhupāda: Janen? Galpo? (You know the story?) Indian Devotee: Han? Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. Indian Devotee: (laughs) (laughter) Indian Devotee: Asun, basun, plet anun, glass anun. (Please come sit here. Bring some plates, bring glasses.) (break) Prabhupāda: I shall speak in both Hindi and Bengali. Ekjan khansana, se deshe yabe. (One butler, he was to go to his village home.) One servant of the European . . . he was to go to home, so. Tar ekta badli dite hobe, sei chakar ra sob bodli dito na? (He was to make one substitute ready who will work in his place during his leave.) So he has to give one man to represent him to work. So he says that, "How can I work for you?" Ami tomar jaygate ki kore kaj korbo? Amito engreji janina. (How can I work in your place? I don't know English.) “I will teach you, I will teach you English don’t bother.” Ami shikhiye debo. (I will teach you.) "Now what is that?" Tinte katha sekhabo. (You just learn three words.) "Just learn three words." "What is that?" Ki? (What?) "Yes, no, very good." (laughter) Devotee: Very simple. Indian Devotee: Yes, no, very good. Prabhupāda: Yes, no, very good. Sir yeta bolbe tumi "yes" bolbe. Tarpor ya bolbe "no". Tarpor ya bolbe "very good". (Whatever sir will ask, just reply "Yes". After that, whatever he replies you say "No". After that, whatever he says you reply "Very good") So he taught him three words that, “When you’re master will say something first you say: 'Yes' ". Khali "yes". (Only "Yes".) Tarpor yodi kichu bole, bolbe "no". Tarpore yodi . . . (If he says something more, then you say: "No", even after that.) . . . "And if he again speaks something then say: 'Very good' ". So he learned three words, yes no very good. So after, o yakhan cole geche. Ekdin saheber ghar theke kichu jinish khuje pacche na. (so when that person went on leave, one day his boss was searching for something in his room.) He was missing something so he asked the servant, "Where is my that thing, you have taken?" "Yes" (laughter) Eke jijnes korlo yei, ami ei jinishta dekhte pacchina tumi niyecho ki? Se bollo "yes". Mane to janena. (He asked him, "I couldn't find that thing, have you taken that?" He replied "Yes." He doesn't know the meaning.) Yes. He does not know, "Now if you have taken it then return it here". "No". (laughter) Yodi niye thako niye aso ekhane rakho. "No". (If you have taken that then bring it here. " No".) "Then I’m giving you to the Police." "Very good." (laughter) So when the Police came. Yakhan Police elo, takhon se . . . eta ki? Takhan bollo yao tumi er sange. To eto katha chilo na. Amito cakri korte eschilam. (When the Police came, he thought," What is this?" They said go with the Police now, and he was thinking this was not supposed to happen, so I came here to do my service.) I came here to serve now am going to the Police. So, yes no very good. (laughter) Formally when the Britishers came here they required assistance they could not bring so many Britishers. They had to manage office so any man, simply, "Yes, no, very good," he would get a service. (break) (end) Conversation -- November 7, 1972, Vrndavana Guru dāsa: (indistinct) . . . was that there discussion important? Prabhupāda: Very important. Guru dāsa: Section of Bhāgavata was it there. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . that is the whole . . . (indistinct) . . . of Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata never becomes old, nityaṁ bhāgavata*-sevayā ( SB 1.2.18) . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Guru dāsa: (indistinct) . . . companion of the first three chapters is it not? The second question . . . Prabhupāda: So you're going Agra? Guru dāsa: No. Prabhupāda: When Dr. Kapoor phones . . . Guru dāsa: Hm. Prabhupāda: . . . tomorrow at 1 o'clock in the temple room. Guru dāsa: So he is coming here. Prabhupāda: Here, sitting here sit down. Come here . . . (break) what is the position of that palace? Any word from them? Acyutānanda: I think . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Acyutānanda: Of course the king is the king . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . but he is very very generous. Prabhupāda: Flatter him . . . (indistinct) . . . flatter him . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Next time. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: So but it's a Trust, his all the properties now are now in the name of a Trust. The other members of the trust would like some. Someone has told us that to give them they mentioned something sometimes 15,000 and sometimes 25,000. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: But its not clear whether that would be the whole amount of money that will have to happen I think that if you give them some money to satisfy them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . can pay very much . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . decorate the deities . . . (indistinct) . . . the temples or . . . (indistinct) . . . I have got . . . (indistinct) . . . to make first*-class exhibition it's already there. I have to take care of that, we shall paint very nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . very attractive painting . . . (indistinct) . . . to decorate. So . . . (indistinct) . . . if they want something . . . (indistinct) . . . 50,000, 70,000 then . . . (indistinct) . . . you can pay it . . . (indistinct) Devotee: They also want two or three rooms in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh no that cannot do. We welcome but you cannot usurp. Guru dāsa: He said that when he is not there we can use this, those rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: But . . . (indistinct) . . . he won't. Prabhupāda: But one thing is that clearly . . . (indistinct) . . . deserve? That is not . . . (indistinct) . . . at all. Acyutānanda: You mean that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can accommodate there but with a little gravity. That is not clearly . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . room this land and . . . (indistinct) . . . for us. Prabhupāda: We can accommodate them but he gives us donation. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And to satisfy the . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is inevitable. Now we can now . . . whenever he comes we can provide four rooms, whenever he comes, this much . . . (indistinct) . . . but if we have allocated this four rooms . . . (indistinct) . . . always reserved for rooms. Acyutānanda: We can use them . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: Whenever you come when you have left? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Whenever . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: We shall pay. Whenever they come we shall have good facilities . . . (indistinct) . . . then if they decide then we can make additions and alterations that's our program. So we better not spend so much money there . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . residential quarters . . . (indistinct) . . . immediately decorate . . . (indistinct) . . . with a nice garden . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . and for our devotee's . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If they somehow or other . . . (indistinct) . . . that . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja has come . . . (indistinct) . . . acknowledged . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Would it be . . . (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: If he wants to go to London we have there. Got now residential building, everywhere he wants to go . . . (indistinct) . . . foreign country. Los Angeles, New York, in Dallas. Oh Dallas we have got . . . (indistinct) . . . better than Los Angeles. You have not seen. . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) You have not seen house . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Guru dāsa: Wouldn't it be better with 26 2nd Ave. These lectures give me a feeling of those days. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: These lectures we're all sitting just yourself and devotees. Prabhupāda: In the beginning they were the first students. Acyutānanda, Brahmānanda . . . (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva, Kīrtanānanda, later on Bhavānanda. I think . . . (indistinct) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna was from the beginning? Bhavananda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Pradyumna . . . (indistinct) . . . and our Hansadutta. Acyutānanda: When did Hayagrīva come? . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. He got a son. Guru dāsa: Samba . . . (indistinct) . . . if the King travels to London he will want some spending money there. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . spending money? . . . (indistinct) . . . he can spend . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever he likes. You cannot give him . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not possible. Guru dāsa: If that is what he wants. Prabhupāda: That . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise . . . (indistinct) . . . meat eating and drinking and gambling with a few lakhs then he can go to some hotel . . . (indistinct) . . . temple . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: He once . . . (indistinct) . . . mentioned . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Once he had mentioned that he wants to help him opening a foreign bank account. Prabhupāda: Immediately we shall help, immediately. Guru dāsa: But then he may want some contribution from our side for his palace? If he asks what should we offer? Prabhupāda: Minimum because we have to spend so much. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but nominal we can . . . but whatever he asks I can pay. Nominal. Guru dāsa: Because his nominal, he mentioned nominal 25 lakhs at one time. So what do . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That we need direction. Immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is your idea? Acyutānanda: Idea of . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Or . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Well 25,000 . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you want that you can give him $2,500. Immediately in any foreign country, either in England or New York or anywhere. I shall immediately send . . . (indistinct) . . . that will be very nice immediately we can open an account so that if we can show some bank balance then there will be no difficulty of going. Guru dāsa: Yes. Acyutānanda: A round trip ticket to America costs $1100. (break) Prabhupāda: I'll take care of that, first of all take care of this. He can be educated if he likes otherwise he can remain in London' or he can remain in New York' or in London village. Any big city he wants there will be no charge for his boarding and lodging. Everything will be free and if he wants to be educated that also we can arrange. Acyutānanda: The Mahārāja would like . . . (indistinct) . . . religious. Prabhupāda: Ah. Prabhupāda: He was trained up . . . (indistinct) . . . if he is prepared . . . (indistinct) . . . going there. He will be trained up. Eh? We can teach him Sanskrit also. In Dallas we are teaching Sanskrit, Sanskrit and English what is the age of the boy? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . 17? Prabhupāda: Then we can teach him Sanskrit and English. So let him donate without . . . (indistinct) . . . and we will take care of it. Let us make our programme nicely, we shall welcome him. Devotee: I would like to . . . when we go up to Māyāpura . . . (indistinct) . . . I would like to ask the Mahārāja to come and see you . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That would be very nice. Devotee: I don't think that you should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That we don't know (break). So instead of going to Agra you can go to Haripur. Guru dāsa: I go on the 18th, departure. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: The car is expected. Acyutānanda: The car is expected and if it doesn't come then I will not be able to go to Broadwood until after Delhi because the . . . (indistinct) . . . is not . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the difficulty. Prabhupāda: Their name, fame, tradition will remain the same. Guru dāsa: We've been through that thing he said I am not interested. Acyutānanda: He said he wanted money. Guru dāsa: Yes. His son and his money. Prabhupāda: Let him take care of his son . . . (indistinct) . . . take Rs.10,000 if he wants. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . this mṛdaṅga is very nicely done. Devotee: Oh they are from Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom? Devotee: Dinanatha . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is the time? Devotee: 10:30. Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . send more to Dallas . . . (indistinct) When I was living at that Keśī Ghat that . . . (indistinct) . . . settlement from that time I was looking. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) . . . I was appreciating . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: You were doing that then what is the future? What are you looking at now? Prabhupāda: Gopal was prepared to give me that house for 10,000, but at that time I had no money. Guru dāsa: Inside it is nice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Inside it is nice. Gopal. But small. Prabhupāda: Oh. If he agrees then you give him 10,000 . . . but at that time no money. And we can decorate the garden very nicely. Guru dāsa: The garden has more area than it appears from where we saw it. Prabhupāda: Yes I can understand. The situation is very . . . (indistinct) (indistinct) . . . (break) father and mother. He has spring cleaned everything (indistinct) jīva va maro va —those who are devotees for them death or life the same thing. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . now everyone is śūdra (laughs) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no discrimination . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. But they . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: Yes. . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No just guess how many . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Then there will be a whole meeting Acyutānanda: (indistinct conversation with Prabhupāda) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Ah that's nice (indistinct) (break) All right . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) Guru dāsa: So? Indian man: We can't say anything openly even if they are convinced so we can say anything openly because he . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody can rest or say anything about it. Nobody can proof it. Guru dāsa: But my point is that Prabhupāda: The government has a strong hand in that movement the pulse . . . (indistinct) . . . very strong. Acyutānanda: Very strong. Very strong. Prabhupāda: But. That everyone. Indian man: Everyone . . . (indistinct) . . . have you come in touch? Prabhupāda: I have met one. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita Eh? Avidyaṁ jīvanaṁśūnyaṁ diśaḥśūnyā abāndhavāḥ . . . (indistinct) . . . (indistinct) it is said there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . . . (indistinct) . . . every alternate year . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: A front. Prabhupāda: It becomes a front . . . but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the solution of all problems. Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: For want of bhoktāram (break) Fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: (indistinct) . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: (Sounds like a tape playing). As soon as one becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . no material possessions . . . (indistinct) . . . unless one is free from all material attachments one cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . niṣkiñcana . . . (indistinct) . . . material . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says . . . (indistinct) . . . niṣkiñcana . . . (indistinct) . . . anyone who accepts only Kṛṣṇa as the supreme proprietor and enjoyer . . . (indistinct) . . . the material world is such that everyone is thinking that I am the enjoyer. So there is competition . . . (indistinct) . . . working. Everyone is taking advantage of . . . (indistinct) . . . and everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to enjoy to his best capacity . . . (indistinct) . . . gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (Padyāvalī 63) servant of the servant of the servant. Guru dāsa: One or two . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? (break) Acyutānanda: And they stayed in . . . (indistinct) . . . house. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . (break) and immediately they began to talk to me . . . (indistinct) . . . and for three hours . . . (indistinct) . . . criticizing Māyāvād . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (indistinct) . . . and a picture that he painted, a picture of the divine rasa the divine līlā . . . (indistinct) . . . not that I . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): No. Devotee: (indistinct) . . . so I was going to go over there at night I didn't have it with me. So Prabhupāda was afterwards suggesting and a few days later he was invited . . . (indistinct) . . . he was guest for 20 days. And there I found . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Eh? No the . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That's Māyāvādī. Indian man: Māyāvādī . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) strange experience. Prabhupāda: You wrote your thesis on Caitanya? Indian man: Yes. I wrote and then I came in contact with these people . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Indian man: (indistinct) . . . psychologist . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: (indistinct) . . . psychologist. Prabhupāda: They are also converted more than psychologist. Indian man: More than that. Guru dāsa: We were deceived by psychiatrists. Indian man: (laughs) *Guru dāsa: There was one psychiatrist in London who was very well*-known and he was coming to the temple. So then Prabhupāda came and I said to him, "You come now and see him." And he said to his wife, "I'm going to see my Caitanya." Indian man: (laughs) Prabhupāda: There is another kind of philosopher I forgot, there is a group in London. The head of that group. Guru dāsa: Mensa. Prabhupāda: Mensa. Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. First of all one of their followers he talked with me and . . . (indistinct) . . . chief. I told them, "You are simply mental speculators." Indian man: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Mental speculators. (laughter) Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Indian man: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the bathroom floor. (laughs) . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) bathroom floor (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: Beginning from Socrates . . . (indistinct) . . . Plato and later on Darwin, Marx, Freud like that. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I gathered that . . . (indistinct) Indian man: Ah. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Ah . . . (indistinct) . . . they are taking me home now and I enjoyed my stay. (break) (end) Conversation Hindi -- December 10, 1972, Ahmedabad Prabhupāda: Conversation -- December 27, 1972, Bombay Prabhupāda: They think that, "Now I have become this position, it will continue." But how long it will continue? They do not care for this. The Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja was asked by Dharmarāja, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world?" He explained that: Every moment millions of people are dying. Śeṣāḥ sthāvaram icchanti . But those who are not dying, he's thinking that, "I will not die. I will stay in my this position. Therefore I don't care for anything." This is most wonderful. Everyone is thinking that "I shall continue." He forgets that at any moment he'll be kicked out. That he does not know. So long he lives, he thinks, "It is my permanent position." That is mistake, the greatest mistake. Everyone is thinking. That is the most wonderful thing. Nobody thinks that, "I'll have to die, I'll have to take another body, I'll have to change the whole atmosphere, and what I am preparing for that?" Nobody thinks. This is the defect of the civilization. Indian lady: That must be due to māyā ? *Prabhupāda: Huh? This is māyā , illusion. He's thinking that, "This is my permanent position." Any moment you can be finished. That he does not take seriously. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : You have become confident that you are happy, but do you consider janma, mṛtyu, jarā, vyādhi ? What you have done for this? Can you stop death? Can you stop birth? Can you stop disease? Can you stop old age? Then, what you have made solution? If these miserable condition of life are there, then what is the value of your scientific advancement? *This is the essence of material life, janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to stop this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi . That is conclusion. How scientific movement it is. People should try to understand solution of the all problems. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti . No more birth. If there is no more birth, there is no more death, because death is for him who takes birth. One who does not take birth, that is deathless. There is no question. *People should know this most important scientific movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, either by following our principles or, if he wants to understand, there are so many books. It is not a blind, sentimental movement. Vimukta*-māninaḥ . It is not like that. Vimukta-māninaḥ . Just like this morning, one gentleman came. He is thinking that "I am doing so great service." Indian guests: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. But when he was tested, he is nothing, zero. Just see. But he is thinking that, "I am doing." (break) . . . with fire, the fire will act, even you do not know that it is fire. This is called ajñāta*-sukṛti . He does not know that he is making little progress in spiritual life. *He does not know. But it is. Ajñāta*-sukṛti. Janma koṭibhiḥ sukṛti. Sukṛtino 'rjuna , this sukṛti will act some next, some after life. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā it is said: Sukṛtino . It is sukṛti . He does not know. But when the sukṛti is accumulated, then in one life he'll become devotee. So somehow or other if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are benefited. You are benefited. Because you have captured the real path. Real path. *Become sādhu . If anyone seriously takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately he becomes a sādhu. Sadhavaḥ sādhu*-bhūṣaṇām (SB 3.25.21). He's samyag vyavasito. He has actually come to the real path of life. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? This morning we were discussing from Bhagavad*-gītā , and we were saying that in our bodies there are so many living entities, billions and billions of living entities, each with a spirit soul. Not only Supersoul, but spirit soul. But we, I, the spirit soul, myself, I am controlling over all of these other living entities. Prabhupāda: You are not controlling. You are amongst them, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, maybe amongst them, but maybe the strongest of them. Prabhupāda: Not strongest, you are one of them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not strongest. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I have was that at the time of death, when I leave this body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . they don't leave this body, do they? Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they come out. As soon as the body is decomposed, they come out. Therefore the rascal theory that death means the living ingredient is missing, it is no more there, so that argument cannot be forwarded, because unless the living ingredients are there in the body, how these living entities are coming out? How it is possible? And this proves that the man, that the living entity which . . . who has left this body, he is individual. Although the facilities for generating life is there, but he is not coming; therefore he is individual. He has gone. Just like if I go from this room, you remain. That means I am individual, you are also individual. We are sitting together. I go away. So that does not mean you are also going out with me. Indian lady: And the soul takes rebirth? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. I go from this room, I go to another room. That is rebirth. When I go from this room, everyone will understand that, "Swāmījī has gone to the other room." Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Therefore, one who is sober, he is not astonished. One who is rascal, he can, "Oh, Swāmījī's gone." So what is gone? (laughter) Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Therefore, those who are dhīra , sober, he is not bewildered. "That's all right. He has left this body. He has got another body. That's all." Indian lady: Immediately after death one gets rebirth? Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately. Immediately he enters in the womb of another mother, according to his karma . Indian lady: For all human beings? *Prabhupāda: According to karma . It is not guaranteed that he'll be human being. He may go to a hog's mother's womb if his activities are like that. Therefore this is foolishness. He is thinking, "Now I am very secure. I have got this position, I have got this bank balance, I have got this house." He does not know by his activities he may be forced to enter in the womb of a hog's mother and come out as a hog. That he does not know. This science is not taught. But this is a fact. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptir . It is not said that he is going to have again human body. Dehāntara: another body. Another body means there are 8,400,000's of bodies. So one has to accept any one of them according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva . . . just like we have got this apartment. Now you have arranged . . . superior authority has arranged that, "Prabhupāda, you come to this apartment." If it was not available, I might have gone to some slum. If it was not possible to come to this nice apartment, then I have to go somewhere. Somewhere I have to take shelter. Then I will accept, "All right. This slum is all right." But these rascals, they do not understand that I am in this apartment, nice apartment, and next I may have to accept apartment in the slum. That is . . . he is fixed up, "Oh, I am so happy." Where is your happiness? At any moment you will be kicked out, and if you do not make arrangement for better room, better apartment, then you are lost. Apartment you have to accept, but where is that apartment? That is . . . *Therefore it is said, yānti deva*-vratā devān . If you are deva-vratā , then you go to the higher planets, the moon planet, heavenly planet, your apartment is there. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ : if you are karma-kāṇḍīya , then you go to the Pitṛloka apartment. Bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni : if you are not so advanced, then you remain here somewhere. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām : and if you prepare yourself to go back to home, back to . . . you can go. So why should you waste my time going to another slum? Why not back to home, back to Godhead? This is intelligence. This is intelligence. Otherwise all fools. They do not know where they are going. While living in this apartment I am asking him that find out some other, because I have to get out. (laughs) That is intelligence. And when the one month is finished, he says: "Get out please," then? Then I will have to accept no better than a slum. This is human life. This is consciousness, that I will have to leave this apartment and I have to accept another apartment. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma. So what kind of apartment I am going to get? That is also stated: You can select. If you want to go to the apartment of demigods, you can go there. Just prepare yourself for the rent and money. This is human life. But they are just like animals, simply just like the cats and dogs. They do not know what is going to happen next life. They have no understanding. This rascal civilization is like that: just working hard like animals, like asses, and they are thinking, "My position is very secure."And one day nature says: "Please give up this position. Get out. Please get out." "No, no, I have got this . . ." "No, no sir. You will now get out. Please get out immediately." This is foolishness. Mūḍhā . They do not know what is the objective of life. And they are very much advanced in education, in science, in business. Andhā yathāndhair . . . they do not know where he's going. Just like andhā . The blind man, he does not know where he is going, and he is becoming leader. He does not know where he is going, and he is leading other. You see? *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not andhās , not blind. They are giving right direction, "You do this, you will go to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa here says, just see, mad*-yājino 'pi yānti mām : "You come to Me." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). It is the direction. Why don't you take it, you rascal? Why you are hovering in mental concoction? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are giving the right direction. We are the . . . suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ , we are the best friends of the human society. Best friend. They may not understand it, but we are the best friend. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ. *We are friends of all living entities—not only human society, but all society. We are feeling, "Why there should be so much animal killing?" No rascal is feeling. No rascal is feeling. We are feeling because we are suhṛdaṁ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ. We are friend of every living entity. We are feeling. We are crying, "Oh, this poor animal is taken to the slaughterhouse." We felt. These rascals, the leaders, they will not feel. They are so rascal, and they are leaders. That is the cause of all distresses of this material world: the rascals are taking leadership. They do not know how to lead. Kṛṣṇa is coming, personally showing, "This is the way." He is giving leading. But people will not accept it. So unfortunate. Personally He is giving leadership; nobody will accept that. What that . . . (indistinct) . . . speaking? That . . . who told me? You. What is the . . . did he speak? Girirāja: That "Kṛṣṇa is not Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: They say: "Kṛṣṇa is not Kṛṣṇa." That's it. Then what He is? He says: "I am Kṛṣṇa"; Vyāsadeva says: "He is Kṛṣṇa"; Nārada says: "He is Kṛṣṇa"; Rāmānujācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa"; Lord Caitanya says: "He is Kṛṣṇa." And he has become so great, greater than Vyāsadeva, Nārada and Rāmānujācārya. He says: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not . . ." Just see the foolishness. This is the foolishness. Simply wastes time. His uncle has written one book, Ranguparnata . Simply has wasted time, that's all. We can understand from the book, from the preacher of the book, it was printed three hundred years ago and stock is lying there. *And our book, Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is , and others, we just printed 50,000, it is all sold, second days. From the preacher of the book we can understand. We are getting reports from outside India, every center says five times increased book-selling. And what they have made profit in New York? $240,000? Śyāmasundara: $245,000 in six months. Prabhupāda: Therefore I went to America. (laughter) Because I know there is intelligent man. Here they are all foolish. Being downtrodden for thousands of years under foreign subjugation, they have lost everything. Nonsense. Out . . . everything! I tried to start this movement from here. I was disappointed. *Therefore, I decided I shall go to America. They have lost everything—their culture, their civilization, their religion, their mode of living. Simply because it is a great culture, still we find some gentlemen because it is coming out of their heritage. Because a great family, a person belong to a great family, although he becomes poverty*-stricken, he cannot give up his family style. That is India's position. Because it belongs to a great civilization, still lingering. Otherwise they have given up. *Indian civilization they have given everything. The government has given everything. All these leaders, they have given everything. Otherwise, how cow slaughtering is going on in India? How it is going on? They have lost everything, all sense of civilization. How is it possible in India, cow slaughtering? This Bhārata*-varṣa, puṇya-bhūmi . They have become so rascals. And this so-called president, they are giving . . . taking high salaries and giving sanction for cow slaughter. That Dr. Radhakrishnan, yes I have seen, last year. And he is scholar. If he would have a little sense of religious life, he would not accept. "What I am going to take, accept this position? My salary will be drawn by cow slaughtering, and I will have to accept this position?" No. "Let the cows be slaughtered, let the people go to hell, I don't mind. Get me my salary, that's all." Leader. "My comfortable position." But he does not know that he will be kicked out, and he is being kicked out; nobody will know where he has gone. *So this is called ignorance. Paśyati jñāna*-cakṣusā. One has to see through the jñāna-cakṣusā. There in Western countries they were not trained up since centuries, so their position may be different. But in India, where this culture, Vedic culture, the people have fallen so much, how much regrettable it is. So it is a very important, great movement. Therefore, I invite all intelligent men to come and join and give relief to the suffering humanity. It is not ordinary movement. That is the best service: to raise them, their help in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Best service. One gentleman came, Mr. Bose? He came from Chicago? Devotee: Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Yes, Philadelphia. He is there for the last fifty years? Devotee: Fifty years. Prabhupāda: So, Indian gentleman, Mr. Bose. So he was appreciating, "Swāmījī, you are giving . . ." He is an American, I mean to say, a permanent American resident. So he knows—he is educated—what is the position, that in spite of so much comforts of material life, they cannot sleep, they require tranquilizer tablet. So we were giving this new kind of formula, he was very much appreciating. Actually this is the position. In spite of . . . there is no scarcity. In America, there is no question of scarcity. Enough food, enough apartment, enough money, everything is enough. But they still require tranquilizer tablet. Just see. Thousands of thousands of tablets are sold daily. Is it not? What do you think? (aside to Śyāmasundara) Your father also takes? Yes. (laughter) Śyāmasundara's father, he is very rich man, good lawyer, he has got enough money, four motorcars, good wife, but tranquilizer he takes. He said: "My father requires this sleeping." Śyāmasundara: Every night he must take, or he will not sleep. Prabhupāda: Of course, he may be sorry his only son is lost. (laughter) He has left home, father, mother. Sisters also, they are . . . that is America. Śyāmasundara: Everyone loses their children in America. Prabhupāda: Yes. Beautiful children. The sister, when first she came, I thought some doll is coming. So beautiful, nice. (laughter) In London she first met me from Germany. So beautiful, nice girl. She wanted to join us? Śyāmasundara: She's having problems. She's thinking of joining us. Prabhupāda: Another sister, she married thrice? Śyāmasundara: Fourth time just recently. Prabhupāda: Four times. *Śyāmasundara: She's twenty*-eight. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-eight years old; *in the meantime she has married four times. So this is going on. (someone at door) So Sarasvatī*-devī is engaged for opening door? That's nice. Yamuna: (indistinct) . . . says that . . . (indistinct) . . . is in the white zone. Nobody here has a car. Śyāmasundara: Car? (break) *Prabhupāda: By God's grace, you American boys, you are taking it. You take this movement very seriously. Preach it. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Your life will be successful, and people will be happy. Para*-upakāra . It was enjoined by Caitanya Mahaprabhu: So Indians, they are coming very slowly, but you preach on behalf of me. Of course, I am Indian also. (laughter) Indian lady: That is going on saṁskāras also. Saṁskāra . Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra you can make. I went to America because Guru Mahārāja ordered me, although I was old, seventy years old. But I thought it wise, "Let me try in this old age." But because I had no other motive, therefore it has become successful. I did not go there to earn money or bluff people or cheat them. I went to go . . . I went to give them something. That was my motive. Kārtikeya, you take this movement seriously. You are nice boy. Kārtikeya: Am I not taking? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, you have taken that much. I am encouraging more, more. Both husband and wife. Kārtikeya: My children are taking. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Good child. The spirit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be pushed for the benefit of the whole world. People are realizing. Now that Dr. Singal came. So he secured some advertisement. He went to twenty places. Out of nineteen people gladly accepted, "Yes." One man is stubborn, he said: "No, we are not going to contribute anything religious." That . . . Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He is thinking that he is secure, in his spot. (pause) All right. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haribol. Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- December 30, 1972, Bombay *Prabhupāda: First of all you should know that I am not this body. Just like I am not this apartment, similarly, I am not this body. So my body is changing according to my karma . Just like according to my capacity to pay rent, my apartment is changing. Not that because I have come to the first*-class apartment, and it is guaranteed that I shall continue. *If I cannot pay rent, I cannot . . . then I have to leave it, and I have to accept, what is called, hut, because I cannot pay more. So similarly, according to our karma we are getting different types of body. That Darwin theory cannot explain, because it is missing the real factor, as it is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that idaṁ śarīraṁ kṣetram ( BG 13.3). And one who knows this kṣetra is kṣetrajña . *So, any question regarding this subject matter? (break) Not that simply go on reading the Bhagavad*-gītā . Do not try to understand by analysis. Then we shall be benefited, if we want to study Bhagavad-gītā . Not that I am giving my own interpretation and misleading all the people. No. That is not Bhagavad-gītā . That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), a blind man is leading other blind man. One nonsense is leading another nonsense. It has no meaning. *This is science. Bhagavat*-tattva-jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One who knows Kṛṣṇa factually, he is guru . Not that anyone simply he has got some knowledge of A-B-C-D, he becomes a commentator on Bhagavad-gītā . No. That will not help us. Any question? Attika prabhu, no question? You have no question? Indian lady: You explain very nicely, Swāmījī. Prabhupāda: You have any question? No? All right. Acchā . Thank you very much. Devotee: All glories to . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Every Indian, especially he has mentioned: In no other part of the world this knowledge is known. It is the duty of the Indians to understand everything perfectly and distribute this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. They have no such books; neither they can explain. That . . . that fool is driving and may come out, that's all. That is not explanation. *So it is the prerogative of India, because in India there are so many sages, saintly person, they have left their knowledge, and one can make his life perfect and distribute this knowledge. This is the duty of India. Bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra. Manuṣya. Not the cats and dogs. Manuṣya , means human being. But all human being, now at the present moment they are cats and dogs. They have no knowledge. And their leaders, simply cats and dogs. That is the position. So any sensible man will take this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and try to assimilate and make his life perfect and distribute all over the world. That is wanted. That is the need of the present day. Indian man: Swāmījī, with so many saints in India and . . . (indistinct) . . . so good, how did we come to this stage? Prabhupāda: First of all, you do not know who is saint. That is your difficulty. You say: "So many saints," but there is no saint at all. Do you know what is saint? You say: "So many saints," so what is the saint? What is your understanding of saint? Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, if I say: "So many rich men," so I must know who is rich man. If I say simply "so many" without knowing what is rich man, that is not perfect. Who is a saint, first of all? Indian lady: They claim that they are saints. Prabhupāda: They claim . . . everyone can claim, "I am saint." But you must know who is a saint. Everyone will claim that, "I am rich man." But there must be a standard of rich man, who is rich man. At least we understand that one who has got a nice bungalow, nice car, a few servants, a nice bank balance, then you can say: "Yes, it is rich man." But if I do not know who is rich man, then what is the use of speaking "so many"? First of all you must know who is a saint. How you know it? Saint, the exact meaning of saint is sādhu. Sādhu. Is it not? Indian lady: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find who is a sādhu. Sādhu , Kṛṣṇa explains that: Who is mahātmā ? Not that by stamping one becomes mahātmā . First of all know who is mahātmā , who is sādhu. Mahātmā , in another place: This is mahātmā . These are the description of mahātmā . If I say, people may be angry. If I say the politician is not a mahātmā , then people will be angry. But see the standard definition of mahātmā . Standard definition of mahātmā , Kṛṣṇa says: *You can stamp anyone as mahātmā , but sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ . That is mahātmā . What is his business? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti : "Kṛṣṇa is everything," and he surrenders, he is mahātmā . One who is constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. So you must know first of all who is a sādhu; *whether he's devoted to Kṛṣṇa, devoted to God. But these rascals, so*-called saints, say that, "I am God." He's a rascal. He's not a sādhu . He's not saintly person; he is a demon. So we are accepting demons as mahātmā and sādhu; therefore it has fallen down. Because we are accepting the rascals, demons as sādhu and mahātmā , therefore you have fallen down. This is the reason. *We do not know who is mahātmā and sādhu . Everyone is preaching, "Why you are finding out God? Why you are going to temple? The Gods are all loitering in the street, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. " And you are accepting, "Oh, so nice sādhu ." But you do not know. He is a demon, and you are accepting as sādhu . That is the cause of falldown. Mahātmā , sādhu , has been described, the supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa: Tuṣyanti ca ramanti ca (BG 10.9). Their only business is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Not that "Cut down the Supreme Lord, kill the Supreme Lord, and I become Supreme Lord," falsely, and cheat the innocent people. The cheaters we are accepting, that "Here is a god, here is mahātmā , here is sādhu ." Therefore it is falldown. Cheaters. Demons. Rascals. That is the cause of falldown. *Mahātmā is he that, bhajanty ananya*-manaso mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). He is under the control of daivī prakṛti , not this material nature' spiritual nature. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya-manaso : Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. He is mahātmā . We are creating all mahātmās , not demons, rascals. That is our business, Kṛṣṇa conciousness. As you are importing powdered milk from America, now you have to import all mahātmās from America. (laughter) It is a fact. Yes. Now there is no milk. So barrels and barrels of powdered milk is coming from America. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is milk? All finished. I think three, four years ago, when I first went I had some correspondence with my friend. So I wrote this very word that, "Now India is finished this milk and so many things, they have to import from foreign countries. Now you have to import brahmins and mahātmās from foreign countries." Because I tried to make this mahātmā in this country, but still they are not prepared. They are not prepared. But these boys, these American, European boys, they are prepared. Their order . . . carry my orders as I say. They are habituated to so many bad habits; I said: "Give up," they give up. So one must know, our Indian boys, they are not coming. They know that, "We know Kṛṣṇa, everything. Now let us learn technology." They are not even prepared to become mahātmā . Otherwise, everyone can become mahātmā . These are . . . how to become a mahātmā ? The knowledge is there, the system is there, but nobody is interested. Just like two young men came here, they saw, "Ah, what is this ārati ?" They went away. *There is no interest. They will go to cinema, to become cinema actor. That is the progress. And the so*-called mahātmās and sādhus say: "Yes, you can do whatever you like. Yes." They have no courage to say that, "You don't do this." Then he will lose all customer. Just see. He is a durātmā , he wants some money, "You do whatever nonsense you like, you simply give me my money, that's all." They are publicly preaching, "Yes, you can do anything. Oh, why not sense enjoyment? God has given you the senses, you enjoy." That Mahesh Yogi, he was speaking in this way, "Why the sense . . . the senses should be controlled? You have got . . . God has given you senses, you must enjoy." This is his philosophy. Vivekananda's philosophy: yata mata tata patha , "Whatever mata you have got, that's all right." Mahatma Gandhi was approached, "Mahatmaji, why don't you ask the Muslims to stop this cow killing?" "No, how can I do? This is their religion." Now see. If you are nonviolent, if by . . . in the name of religion somebody says: "It is my religion," how can you allow it? If you want to introduce nonviolence, religion or no religion, must stop it. Somebody will go on killing that, "My religion is to cut throat." "Yes, you can go on, yes, because it is your religion." What kind of mahātmā ? They are advertising . . . the government is advertising nonviolence, and ten thousand or forty thousand cows are being killed. What is this nonviolence? We are so misled, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā , and we are accepting these rascals and fools and rogues and demons as sādhus, mahātmās , leaders, and we are gone to hell. This is the fact. Indian man (2): So what is the solution to it? How to know . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): How for the average man to know that and not carried by it? The average man is just led to it. Prabhupāda: Yes, the average man is . . . now we are preaching this cult, but why they are not coming? You have kindly come, but maybe tomorrow you may not come. They're not eager to understand. They want to be misled. They want to be cheated. That is their progression. They don't want the truth. Because if he wants the truth, then his life will be spoiled. Indian lady: Restriction. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He is living an untruth. The whole world is living on meat*-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling. And we are restricting, "No, you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have meat-eating, you cannot indulge in intoxication." So how many people will come? "Oh, Swāmījī is very conservative," they say: "Swāmījī is very conservative, primitive. We are now advanced. We must eat three plates of meat and two bottles of wine. That is advancement of civilization." What is this nonsense talking? Yes. Some of my students left, "Oh, Swāmījī is not allowing even the primary necessities of life." That is the primary necessities of life. Rāyarāma left for this purpose. So we cannot make any compromise. We don't make compromise. Therefore, although we are preaching all over the world, our principles are very strict. Anyone who comes seriously, "You cannot do this." Generally you can come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , that's all right. But if you want to become my disciple, then you have to give up all these bad habits. One who agrees, then I accept him as disciple. If I would say, "Yes, you can do. God has given you senses; you go now, enjoy your senses and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then I would have gotten millions and trillions. I don't allow that, such kind of nonsense. All right. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guests: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (end) Conversation Temple Inauguration -- March 17, 1973, Mayapur *(Srila Prabhupada first asked Śrīdhara Mahārāja to give a talk during the inauguration of the ISKCON Candrodaya Mandira in Māyāpur 1973, on Gaura*-pūrṇimā). Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . (indistinct) . . . conceived the inner most . . . (indistinct) . . . this is wonderful . . . (indistinct) . . . I am rather . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not a chance confident eh? Not a matter of the minute . . . this sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . is being conferred on me . . . (indistinct) . . . this is a permanent settlement . . . (indistinct) . . . conceived in this world . . . (indistinct) (break) . . . we are very eager to get some happiness, that even a point is very much dear to us—even a speck of happiness of the Infinite. Our Professor Sanyal, he told when he was a boy in . . . he was a man of Faridpur, and there the Ganges water is very dear. So from his childhood he was habituated to see Ganges water by drop. Drop, a drop of Ganges water, it touched someone on the head, he is seeing like this. The conception of Ganges water, it appeared in that way. But his father was serving in Chandpur, on the verge of Ganges. Once, following his father, he came he is coming this side, and passing through the Ganges water. Then he told him, "What is this?" His father told, "This is Ganges—River Ganges." "So much water! The boat is passing through Ganges water? And in an ordinary place, the Ganges water, it can never be found, can hardly be found in our country. And so much Ganges water is there that the boat is passing through." So, so much happiness. Prabhupāda: Ānandāmbudhi . . . *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanaṁ ( CC Antya 20.12). Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ. All blissfulness, all love, all divinity are so much found there, and there is everything required. All dancing— gānaṁ, nāṭyaṁ —and all amṛtam , all drink is for pleasure. *Prabhupāda: Kathā gānaṁ nāṭyaṁ (Brahma*-saṁhitā 5.56) . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kathā gānaṁ —all the words are sweet because they're subject matter is sweetness personified, Kṛṣṇa. Kathā gānaṁ pleasing everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . gānaṁ, nāṭyaṁ . And the very environment—the trees, cows, plants, everything—all fulfill our purpose. *"Oh, you are kṛṣṇa*-bhakta ? Everything for you is there." "Everything for you," offering them. "Everything. We are all your friends. You can take anything you like. We are ready for your satisfaction." Opulence—opulence being offered from all sides. That is the immediate representation throughout, for this fallen area, area idea, this idea where we the fallen souls are living. . . (indistinct) . . . That has been extended through the scriptures and the sādhu . The intimation . . . (indistinct) . . . sādhus are agents coming down from that land to here to recruit us, to take us to that. You are thus so purely representing that which you like happiness. You want happiness. "Are you seeking happiness, ecstasy? Oh, come with me. The opulence is there, khani —the mine is there—you come." How much as you can fit, you can take. How much you can contain. Your, your . . . Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song —"I have brought that good news . . ." I forget that song. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes— śrī*-vaikuṇṭha-purīāche nihsreya āśā gaṇa . . . *Prabhupāda: Kalyāṇa*-kalpataru . *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kalyāṇa*-kalpataru. Nihsreya āśā . . . Ki ache? (What is that?) Govinda Maharaja: Taniya anite brksa e . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kalpa brksha aganan. Tar ekta brksha ami ekhane karilam, kalpataru ene dilam. (Uncountable desire trees. From there I brought a tree here. Brought a desire tree.) Tarpore ki? Guru prasadete take abar . . . iye kore . . . sanskar kore tomader kache dicchi. (What after that? After purifying by Guru prasada , I am giving it to you.) *(indistinct) . . ." Kalyāṇa-kalpataru. "Many such trees and creepers are there, and only one-by*-one like to come down here for Your purpose." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa! The name is the highest medium, Mahāprabhu recommends. And it is open to all. Open to all! No much question of eligibility in taking the name. From whatever corner quarter you may come, only a sincere will is necessary: "Yes, I want!" A sincere will. "Yes, I want this." Prabhupāda: Serious . . . (indistinct) . . . necessary. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: No other qualification is necessary, only a sincere will. Only, "Yes, I want this!" Everything is there. And yes, "Come forward. I shall give you." But the will must be sincere. Śraddhā. Śraddhā , faith. Prabhupāda: Receptive, the first is faith. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Then he is here, sincere. He is not far away. Only the egoism is the wall between the two. And the egoism ignorance of karma and jñāna removed, and we are with the Lord. We are with the Lord! Tad dūre tad vantike (ISO 5). Prabhupāda: Far away. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Far for them, and near for the others—for the śraddhā*-loka . So near that we cannot conceive of that nearness. Even for that, myself is not so near to myself. He is so near to us, but we cannot conceive that. I cannot see me as much as He can see me. I cannot love me as much as He loves me. And His men love me He means love. He means love. I cannot love Him so much. I cannot uncover that relationship with the Lord. But with the divine name, the Divine Master can become crucial to the divine act of finding our destination. What is the . . . (indistinct) . . . only . . . (indistinct) . . . have sanctioned, freedom of the material sensation is there, of this material body. Prabhupāda: When the light is off, the current is off. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. So, our Swami Mahārāja has done a miracle! (laughingly) He has done a miracle! Prabhupāda: (laughter) . . . (indistinct) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: What Bhaktivinoda conceived and Prabhupāda tried to, according to his conception, to translate into action in his last days. Anyhow, we find that through Swami Mahārāja these revelations have been fulfilled. We are happy. We are glad. We are proud of Swami Mahārāja, with love to all. Our Guru Mahārāja told that when one person comes to take dīkṣā and to stay in the Maṭha, then he said we may say that after wandering a long time in a foreign land he is again coming back to his home, homeward. Home means homeward, back to God, back to home, back to Godhead. Back to Godhead means back to home, sweet, sweet home. Our home is there and life and life is there, and nowhere else. So we may be quite free there; no apprehension of any misgivings or misunderstand misconduct. With such boldness and clear faith we can go on, onward and onward. What are we leaving on the back—that is all mortal things, transient. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Jaya oṁ viṣṇupāda paramahaṁsa parivrājakācārya Śrī Śrīmad Bhakti*-rakṣaka Śrīdhara Mahārāja ki jaya! Devotees: Jaya! *Prabhupāda: So we are thinking we are very much fortunate to hear His Divine Grace Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Paramahaṁsa Parivrājakācārya Bhakti*-rakṣaka Śrīdhara Mahārāja. He is, by age and experience, in both ways he is senior to me. I am also I was fortunate to have his association since a very long time, perhaps since 1930 or something like that. At that time, he did not accept sannyāsa . . . he just left home, vānaprastha . In his white dress he went to Allahabad. (aside) Mahārāja, I think you remember this incident, when you went to Allahabad? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, I do. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you. (chuckles) Yes. At that time . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . we took prasādam on the roof. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Thank you. So on that auspicious occasion we are connected. Before that, in 1920, er, '22, when I was manager in Dr. Bose's Laboratory, young man, and I was Nationalist, Congress Party. I was a devotee of Mahatma Gandhi and C. R. Dāsa. At that time . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: When I was . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That was the beginning of our . . . Prabhupāda: No, I was in connection with Congress 1917, yes, '17, when Annie Besant became the Congress president. Then I became serious in 1920, and I gave up my education. So one of my friends—that friend is also now . . . perhaps you know, Mahārāja, that Naren Mullik? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was my intimate friend. So in their house old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich men. So he informed me that, "One nice sannyāsī came to our house, and he has invited . . . in Ultadanga there is the Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic: "Why should I go? I know all the sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me: "Oh, why not? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in the Ultadanga building. At that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof—there was a small house and room—and we were welcomed, because this Naren Mullik was very rich man, and he had contributed some money. So we went to see Prabhupāda and to offer our obeisances. So immediately he said that, "You are all educated young men. Why don't you preach Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message throughout the whole world?" *So I replied to him that, "We are dependent nation. Who will hear our message? We can talk all these things after we get independence." Because I was politically*-minded at that time. Yes. So he refuted my argument. Certainly I was defeated. And I took his words very seriously, I appreciated. Then we were offered some prasādam , we came down, and my friend Naren Mullik asked me, "How did you like this sādhu ?" And, "Yes, here is a sādhu in whose hands Caitanya Mahāprabhu's message is there, and it will be done. I think he was very nice." That was my appreciation. Then 1923 I resigned my post as manager in Bose's Laboratory, and I accepted the agency for whole U.P., beginning from Mughalsarai up to Delhi, and I made my head office in Allahabad. So I was always thinking, "Oh, yes. I met a very nice sādhu ." From the very beginning that was my impression that, "I have met a real sādhu ." So actually the words lava mātra sādhu saṅge sarva siddhi haya (CC Madhya 22.54) was actually, I perceived that in a moment. I was impressed so much with Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura that it was . . . it continued. Then in 1928, when there was Kumbha- melā . . . Mahārāja, when did you join Gauḍīya Maṭha? Śrīdhara Mahārāja: '27 . . . Prabhupāda: '27. That means . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I was twenty when I met Prabhupāda in August 1926. That was my first meeting, and I joined the mission in May 1927. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. In 1928 there was a Kumbha- melā , I think. And during that Kumbha*-melā, Tīrtha Mahārāja with a party came to my shop, Prayāg Pharmacy, all of a sudden, and I thought, "Oh, these are the people I saw, Gauḍīya Maṭha. Yes." (laughter) So I was so glad. So Tīrtha Mahārāja asked me that "We are come new here. We are going to establish a temple in Allahabad. We have heard your name, so we have come to you. Please help us." "Yes, I will help you." So in this way I contributed, my attending physician contributed, and some other friends. In this way we became friends, and Tīrtha Mahārāja, old Tīrtha Mahārāja, had first meeting in my house at Allahabad, with I think, the Sarvesva brahmacārī and Dhīra Kṛṣṇa brahmacārī . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yāyāvara Mahārāja and . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So my father was Vaiṣṇava, but when I invited these Gauḍīya Maṭha sādhus , my father thought that I have invited some sādhus of the Ramakrishna Mission. (laughter) So he was not very interested. When Tīrtha Mahārāja is speaking, I call my—my father was at that time invalid—I called him that "Please come down. There is a meeting of the Gauḍīya Maṭha sādhus ." So he could not resist my request. He came down, but he did not think that some devotees have come. He thought, "These Ramakrishna Mission rascals have come." (laughter) So he was not very happy. But I told; he was sitting. He . . . so the meeting, he just criticized. Then when he heard the speech of our old Tīrtha Mahārāja, our old Godbrother, he understood: "Oh, they are Vaiṣṇavas." Then immediately after the meeting, he fell down on his feet: "I misunderstood you, sir, that you are the Ramakrishna Mission sādhu . I am so glad to meet you." *So that is the beginning of my intimate relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha. And they are coming, and whenever somebody would come, I would invite them to lecture in my house. In that way, Śrīdhara Mahārāja, at that time Ravendra*-sundara Bhaṭṭācārya, he was also invited at my house, and before . . . no, I think I invited Bhāratī Mahārāja, and you were with Bhāratī Mahārāja. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So in this way my connection became developed with Gauḍīya Maṭha. Then gradually the process began, hariṣye tad*-dhanaṁśanaiḥ (SB 10.88.8). (chuckles) I wanted to become very big businessman, and there was good opportunity. I was very nicely associated with the chemical industry of India, Dr. Bose's laboratory, Bengal Chemical, V. K. Farr, and all of them, they liked my business organization. Then I started big laboratory in Lucknow. So that was golden days. But gradually everything becomes dead, and at last my Allahabad business was lost. It was not lost on account of some, my debts—I had to hand it over to Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose because I was his agent. So I had some debts, so I tell the, "All right, you take this business." In this way, that Prayāg Pharmacy was lost. So I was not going to . . . I was sitting at home. But this Yāyāvara Mahārāja, at that time Sarvesva brahmacārī and Atulānanda brahmacārī, they used to come to take their subscription, and they were requesting that "Why don't you come to our maṭha ? Why don't you come to our maṭha ? You are now free." So I used to visit their temple. That was not far away from my house. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In Mahratta. Prabhupāda: Mahratta. Yes. Then the intimate relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha grew. In this way, I think in 1933, yes, the Sir Malcolm Hailey came to lay down the foundation stone of Allahabad Maṭha. Mahārāja, I think you remember. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes, we were coming from Vṛndāvana parikramā . Prabhupāda: Yes, parikramā . And the parikramā , that is also another incident that . . . I, I was not initiated at that time, but I had very good admiration for these Gauḍīya Maṭha people, and before, before 1933 I met Śrīdhara Mahārāja and other devotees, old Tīrtha Mahārāja. So they were very kind to me. So the parikramā , I thought, "What these people are doing on this parikramā ? Let me go." So I met them in Kosi. Perhaps Mahārāja, you may remember, and all people were going to see some Śeṣaśāyī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Including Nemi Maharaja. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So at that time Vinode Bhai, later on Keśava Mahārāja, he informed that "Prabhupāda is going to Mathurā tomorrow morning, and he will speak hari*-kathā this evening. Anyone who wants to remain may remain, or otherwise they may prepare to go to see Śeṣaśāyī." So at that time, I think, only ten or twelve men remained. Out of them, Śrīdhara Mahārāja was one of them, and I thought it wise: "What shall I see, this Śeṣaśāyī? Let me hear. Prabhupāda will speak; let me hear." So Prabhupāda marked that "This boy . . ." *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It was better to listen to him than to see the eye*-experience. Prabhupāda: He, because he's a Vaikuṇṭha person who could understand that "This boy is eager to hear." So he very much appreciated. So when we came back to Allahabad, so Ganeśa Babu, he introduced me, that "Here is a nice devotee." So Prabhupāda immediately replied, "Yes, I have marked him. He does not go away. He hears." These very words he said: "Yes, I will accept him as disciple." Then I was initiated. In this way our relationship with Gauḍīya Maṭha developed, and gradually, as it developed, the other side diminished. (laughter) Then—there are long history; it will take time—but I had the opportunity of associating with His Holiness. For several years I had the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa and Prabhupāda liked it to prepare me. Śrīdhara Mahārāja lived as a . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . as a sannyāsī . Prabhupāda: (laughs) . . . in my house, some may say, for few years, so naturally we had very intimate talks, and he was my good adviser. I took his advice, his instruction, very seriously, because from the very beginning I know he's a pure Vaiṣṇava and devotee, and I wanted to associate with him, and try to help him also in so many ways. He also tried to help me. So our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of the Gauḍīya Maṭha, I wanted to organize another organization, making Śrīdhara Mahārāja head. And I wanted to mix . . . at that time Gosvāmī Mahārāja, one of my friend's house at Sealdah . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja, you may remember those things. I wanted to organize in so many ways, but somehow or other . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: I had one house in Station Road . . . Prabhupāda: Yes Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . belonging to Naren Mullik. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It was a very small place. Prabhupāda: He wanted to rent us only for ninety rupees. I told him, "You just give me the concession." He, at that time, he was getting 125, but because I am his friend, "All right, I'll give you, ninety rupees." So that could not happen somehow or other. So I was trying from the very beginning after the disappearance of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: At that time you published Back to Godhead . Prabhupāda: Yes, in 1944. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: 1944. Prabhupāda: I think that you were at that time at my house. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: So somehow or other, this intention for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu increased, and other side decreased. Viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). But I was not disinclined, but Kṛṣṇa forced me, that "You must give up." (chuckles) And these thing is known better to Śrīdhara Mahārāja, how it decreased, decreased, decreased, then almost it become nil. And then I left home in 1950. Whatever was there, "All right, you do whatever you like." In 1954, four years, I remained as vānaprastha —why four years, from 1950 to 1959. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: In the meantime, there was Bombay. Bombay life. Prabhupāda: Bombay life, yes. Bombay life—that was during my householder life. I opened an office in Bombay for my business and . . . but the Gauḍīya Maṭha was established by us. I am one of them. Śrīdhara Mahārāja also. And we made two parties for begging, collecting alms. Śrīdhara Mahārāja, myself and Gosvāmī Mahārāja. At that time he was Atula, Atulācandra Gosvāmī. So I took them to some of my friends, chemist friends, doctors friends. So I collected about five hundred rupees through this. Śrīdhara Mahārāja would speak, I introduced, and Gosvāmī . . . at that time Gosvāmī Mahārāja would canvass. (laughter) In this way three combined together, in one day or two days we . . . at that time five hundred rupees was (laughing) big amount. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: A big sum. *Prabhupāda: Big sum, yes. So Gosvāmī Mahārāja very much appreciated, and he began to speak highly about me that, "Abhay Babu is so expert, he has got so many friends, he has collected so much . . . so why does he . . . he should not be . . . the Maṭha in*-charge." In this way. "Why should he not live with us? Why he's living separately?" In this way. So Prabhupāda, Mahārāja, Śrīdhara (laughing) may remember it, he said: "It is better to live separately from you people, and he will do the necessity in due course of time." So I could not understand what Śrīla Prabhupāda meant by that. So his inclination, blessings, were always upon me, although I was unfit. But he was so kind. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . (indistinct) . . . was collecting sufficient funds to come back . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, he was afraid. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: He asked you. *Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda gave me some money, that he is afraid, "You keep this money. When they need, you can . . ." So, by guru*-vaiṣṇava , and whatever position I have got, it is by guru's mercy and the Vaiṣṇavas' blessings; otherwise I am insignificant. (voice trembles) So I wish that Śrīdhara Mahārāja may bestow his blessings as he was doing always, and my Guru Mahārāja may help me. I can give some service, so long I live. That's all. *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Remember . . . some dissertation of Bhāgavatam at Rādhā*-Dāmodara on Jīva Gosvāmīs (appearance) day. Prabhupāda: Yes, Jīva Gosvāmī. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That gave you that last impression for possibility for foreign pracāra . Prabhupāda: Yes. I thought that Guru Mahārāja wanted, and these Gauḍīya Math people did not do anything, so let me try in this old age. The inspiration came, and I went. By his grace it has become little successful, that's all. I have no credit. *It is all the blessings of guru and Vaiṣṇava. That's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening, because I am not at all bona fide position. But it is truly chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava*-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Are you going . . . (indistinct) . . . kindly talk with your . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: That will be . . . (indistinct) . . . carried to us, the land of gold and Golden Avatāra. (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am always speak to this, my American disciples, that "You are so much, I mean to say, taken care of by God. This is . . . your position is very good. Now you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you become a perfect nation." That I preach always. "By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, you have got everything. All material opulence. *Now make it plus Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be very nice." Lakṣmī*-Nārāyaṇa. So these boys are trying, very sincerely and seriously, and I hope, even I do not live many more years, they will carry out this order. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: The flow coming down from Him. We are in that current, so we are also counted within that current. Prabhupāda: And our Gauranga Mahārāja . . . Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Prabhupāda said, Bhaktivinoda dhara kakhana ruddha hoibe na. (The tradition of Bhaktivinoda will never be stopped.) Prabhupāda: Ta ki hote pare! (Is this possible?) This is not possible. This is not possible. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) . . . we are also counted within that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . camp. At other . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Other times being washed away: keno māyār bośe, jāccho bhese (Gītāvalī, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Bol), and we are being washed, washed away, by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. (laughter) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct) . . . participate. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Everything is there. Everything is there. (break) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This . . . this āśrama is being opened today. What is it's position? In Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam we find: *Vana*-vāsa —that plain living, with minimum materials for our . . . to help our life, that is vana-vāsa , a simple life, plain living-high thinking. Simple life . . . but there also we are master of that, that little thing, that sāttviko vāso . Most conducive to our religious life, no grandeur, opinion, material enjoyment etc. That is sattvica-vāsa-vana-vāsa. *Rajasa*-vāsa is a . . . is a life fired . . . we are engaged in various activities in the upliftment of the society and the world and its civilisation. That is rajasa , where the maximum energy is spent to improve the paraphernalia where we live to make us comfortable. *Tamasa*-vāsa , due to sadanam , without caring for any social life, only . . . only sense pleasure . . . maximum and minimum giving to others in society or any paraphernalia, reckless life, a life in the clubhouse or a hotel or something like that is an irresponsible life, tamasa . Due to sadanam, man-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam and if we live our life in the house of the Lord we may be . . . we may dive ourselves in any amount of grandeur or anything of the type but still it is nirguṇaḥ because we are not master there. We are servant, we are servant, the vana-vāsa to simple with minimum material surround our self to live but still there we are master, we command but here we are mere servant everything to be solved whatever we shall see there all around. *Even a tree, even a creeper even a dust, that is to be solved and not to enjoy, nor to renunciate. That is a form of life, a life of worship, a life of devotion, eh. Not only to the Deity's of the Lord but including all His paraphernalia and to see that they are also serving the Supreme Entity. With this idea to be a serving factor, in all serving environment . . . the Supreme Lord, man*-niketaṁ tu nirguṇam , so we have come, to live here a life a nirguṇaḥ life, guṇa-tīta, guṇa-tīta , that really (coughing in the background) *Crossing all sorts of reality with this material. Directivity with this material world whatever of conception it may be. And to learn that, īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ . (Iso mantra 1) The fundamental truth given in the Upaniṣad, Īśopaniṣad , that: īśāvāsyam idam sarvaṁ , that in everything there is the presence of the Supreme Entity and also the Supreme Lord with this conception we are to live in such a training house. I was told that in Back to Godhead one gentlemen he wrote that so*-called universities and the colleges and the schools are slaughter houses, hmm? I'm very much pleased with this idea. *Yes they are nothing but slaughter houses and this sort of institution but what our Guru Mahārāja has inaugurated in this world to uplift us and all jīvas , towards the Supreme . . . Supreme worship, the loving service of the Supreme Entity. We are like oasis in a desert. Hm? All these are oasises in the desert, they are life*-giving and not slaughtering institutions like so many educational institutions that we find . . . sā vidyā tan-matir yayā (SB 4.29.49) However this sort of training comes, that go towards centre, towards reality, towards beauty, towards harmony, towards solution of life, towards . . . towards nectar giving life, these institutions . . . Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: . . . are only helpful and this is necessary. One Madana*-Mohana Mahavir became a leader a famous leader in the past history, that is recent history of India. He came to visit our Guru Mahārāja and after listening to his words he told that every village should have one centre of your divine grace. But our Guru Mahārāja answered in return it in turn, that I want to make everybody a temple of the Lord. Every . . . every human being, every human body I want to make a temple there in. Not only places, so that was his idea, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126) so with this idea he started his mission, Gauḍīya Maṭha, Gauḍīya Mission. And we see that Swami Mahārāja by his grace he is able to spread, to take it all around India and throughout the world, in different the world continents. We are very happy to see new faces, around us eh, for the preaching purpose and spreading the news of Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Śrīla Mahāprabhu, the mission of Śrī Kṛṣṇa and his love. There are elevationists, there are renunciationists but we are servitors ye 'ham yusam abi manaso surayat sadano , true to the heaven and the hearth . . . (indistinct) . . . true to the kindred point of heaven and hearth, cloister and the hearth . . . Prabhupāda: Cloister and hearth . . . (indistinct) Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Now . . . (indistinct) . . . eh? But hearth has been made the cloister, the gopī bhajana is to make hearth the cloister, not that the cloister have a separate place. The hearth will be cloister and Kṛṣṇa conception of Godhead is only can make possible the hearth to be the cloister. The wholesale will be converted, every nook and corner nothing should be left out, no faculty should be left out for any other purpose but to devote all respects to the Supreme Entity. *To be faithful to the extreme . . . nothing should be left, this is only possible in Śrī Kṛṣṇa conception of Godhead, akhila*-rasāmṛta-mūrtiḥ (Cc Madhya 8.142), all sorts of ecstasy, happiness. Anything of the type, can be possible in His divine form when we find Śrī Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord and no where else. *One gentleman, a western gentlemen he told, "there are many conceptions of religion in different parts of the world", but we do not find any conception of religion where twenty*-four hours can be devoted in the service of the Supreme Lord. Not only Sunday, not only thrice in the day, not only five times in the day but every hour and second should be devoted in the service of the Supreme Entity and nothing will be left behind. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: This sort of service is only possible in, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31) and in the service, aṣṭa*-kālīya-līlā of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Candra himself in madhurya-rasāṁ. Śrī Caitanyadeva came down to this world to, to preach that, to give that nectarine life, to our means, one and all, nimatra sari gari ka , take the name of the Lord and you will find yourself in His heaven one day, one night. *It is easiest, not money is necessary, not physical energy in great quantities is necessary no other helping things only, only try to take the name sincerely. In the right channel it should be acquired otherwise there will be some tampering energy. Hmm? Trade in the name of religion is also going on, here and there and we should save ourselves from those difficulties and by following a bona*-fide path that we can get our achievement. So in the day of the advent of Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, consciousness is Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya. Kṛṣṇa who came here to arousing us the real our consciousness, of or Kṛṣṇa mean serving Kṛṣṇa in all round, all aspects, all respects. This is, this laudable effort is being done in great quantity by our charming Mahārāja. So we are very happy to . . . getting the chance of attending this function . . . and just a few words to reserve for Swami Mahārāja. Devotees: Hari Bol! Prabhupāda: You can speak. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Tamāl Kṛṣṇa Goswami. Tamāl Kṛṣṇa: So Śrīpad Śridhara Mahārāja and Śrīla Prabhupāda and all the assembled devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya. Today marks a very grand day for us, because it is now the birth anniversary of Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared nearly 500 years ago just in this Śrīdāmā Māyāpur, and His appearance was prayed for by Śrī Advaita Ācārya. Because the world had become in such a state where people were forgetting the actual path of how to approach God. The path of pure bhakti was being lost and Advaita Ācārya prayed that somehow some merciful incarnation could come who could save the world and restore the path of bhakti once again. In answer to his prayers Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared on this planet and His appearance was called the most merciful of all. There is one prayer: My dear Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most merciful of all incarnations of Godhead. Even You are more kind than Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself because You are delivering what no other incarnation has ever delivered before: pure Kṛṣṇa prema , pure love for Kṛṣṇa. *Kṛṣṇa spoke in Bhagavad*-gītā to the point that one should surrender everything unto Him sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Surrender everything unto Kṛṣṇa. But in the course of time this process of surrendering surrender how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa that was lost. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's appearance is especially meant to teach us how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *And Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa trying to understand the love that Rādhārāṇī feels for Him. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu is Kṛṣṇa Himself in the form of a devotee and He is teaching us how to love Kṛṣṇa. So actually this Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya is following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, of the six Gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana, down to the many great ācāryas and most recently Jagannātha Dāsa Bābājī, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākur, Śrīla Gaurakiśora Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda, and Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda and Śrīpād Śrīdhara Mahārāja. This line of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas is giving us the highest teachings of all. Lord Caitanya is teaching pure unalloyed devotion without any tinge of material contamination. *That love which was exhibited by the gopīs 5000 years ago is once again being given by Lord Caitanya. And the process He has given is very simple, Caitanya Mahāprabhu after all came as a practical preacher and He demonstrated personally the method by which one could attain the highest form of the love of God. That simple method specifically meant for Kali*-yuga is by chanting the Lord's name: There is one wonderful mantra which Lord Caitanya used to recite: *Because, in other yugas it might have been possible to perform various opulent sacrifices. It might have been possible to perform the mystic yoga processes. It might have been possible to perform very opulent big temple worship, but in Kali*-yuga we are not so fortunate as in past yugas . The lifespan is very short, the intelligence is very meager, the memory is almost nil. So what is that process which can still pick us up to the highest understanding of love of God. That is exhibited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu simply in the process of chanting the holy name—Hare Kṛṣṇa. *So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is non*-different from Kṛṣṇa Himself. Kṛṣṇa is absolute and similarly His name, His form, His pastimes, His paraphernalia everything is on the same transcendental platform. So when one chants the name Kṛṣṇa he is immediately brought into contact with Kṛṣṇa. *The name Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa are non*-different and we see the practical proof of the efficacy of chanting this holy name although all of us who are gathered here, who have come from foreign countries. We were not born in the family of Brahmins , we were not even born in the families of Vaiṣṇavas. Still although we were born in the lowest class of people. Practically caṇḍālas still by chanting this name of Kṛṣṇa we have been elevated to the platform of Vaiṣṇavas. This is said: One can be born in a family of a vipra or a learned Brahmin . One can be born in a family, one can be born in a lower class family, or śūdra . One may be of the renounced order of life if he does not know the science of Kṛṣṇa he cannot be considered guru . But one who has mastered the science of Kṛṣṇa he is considered guru . So we can only give so much thanks to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to all the most merciful ācāryas and especially to our most beloved spiritual master, because they have all given us this chance to know the highest truth of all Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. So on this day when we are all gathered together it marks the opening ceremony of our first temple here in Māyāpur. Our only purpose we the disciples of Śrīla Prabhupāda is to fulfill his desire and as he is expressing his desire is only to fulfill the mission of his guru mahārāja Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī wished that there should be a spiritual city Śrīdhāma Māyāpur where all the world could see an ideal spiritual community existing. Practically now we the disciples of Swami Bhaktivedanta Prabhupāda wish to make this a fact. This first building which will serve as a residential building and as school and classroom we hope to be just one of a very big spiritual city which can be constructed. In this way, by the grace of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura who wished that Europeans and Americans and westerners from all over the world could take part in chanting along with the people of India. We wish to make the fact that Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the most merciful incarnation of Godhead revealed to the whole world. So, I would like to pay on behalf of all my godbrothers our sincere and humble thanks to Śrīpād Śrīdhara Mahārāja for gracing us today. We are so much grateful that you have come to visit our guru mahārāja and to help us to open this temple which we hope will be pleasing to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Haribol! . . . (indistinct) *Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct Bengali). Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura śara śāstrāṇām. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura deep in the affectionate heart conceived that why not see Caitanyadeva's prema*-dharma. He is capturing the world it is so self-evident it is the only constructing . . . constructive religion to the furthest extreme and why not this is appreciated? This God must be appreciated, He has not only told that east-west, far west, all riddled with common venour of Śrī Caitanyadeva, but also He very strongly told that in future no other religion will exist than the religion of Śrī Caitanyadeva. Namo saṅkīrtan , this also He has made, for days. And for Prabhupāda's his higher heart was trying utmost to spread this idea of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and this grace of Śrī Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Every nook and corner of the world . . . why not men? This would accept such a natural. And so healthy . . . and so simple religion. It is . . . it cannot be denied, that we are so many particles, we are conditioned beings, why not we seek some absolute centre for our, eh help? *Śaraṇāgati , this is self*-evident, danya ātma-nivedanam , when there is danya , when there is real sincere feeling of worship. The next thing cannot but come to take shelter under some greater, greater power. And that relation must be of love and affection. Love . . . and the beauty of love is controlling the central thing, not power. Power cannot control. Cannot be the controller in the extreme centre but love should be in a sincere heart, this must be reflected. So the affectionate and deep thinking heart of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Prabhupāda. Desire and that desire means Mahāprabhu's desire and Kṛṣṇa's desire and that is being lauded in Swami Mahārāja and so many, and so many of efficient men have joined, present boys have joined, both ladies and gentlemen have joined this mission to work out . . . to see our success. This is great and we credit . . . Devotees: Hare Krishna (applause) Prabhupāda: . . . only sixteen years, and His mother's age was about seventy years. He was the youngest son of His family. Still, for the deliverance of the fallen souls of the world, He took sannyāsa . So this sannyāsa order is accepted according to the predecessors . . . (aside) Who is talking? *In Vaiṣṇava*-sampradāya there are tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa . The Māyāvādī, Śaṅkara-sampradāya, they are ekadaṇḍi . Our Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya, tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa, is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam . Many great preachers and authorities, they took sannyāsa, tridaṇḍi-sannyāsa. Tridaṇḍi means kāya, mana and vākya : body, mind and words. In this rod there are four rods. Three: kāya, mana and vākya; and one, the person. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's desire was that Indians should take up the responsibility for preaching the cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. As I was explaining last night: *The Indians, they are meant for giving something to the world. But unfortunately they have become beggars, simply asking something from the world. We have got such a great culture, Vedic culture, that we can give tremendous benefit to the whole world. But we have given up. There are so many jagad*-gurus , but perhaps they have not seen even what is jagad . But still they are passing on as jagad guru , but their limited action is within the well—three yards, that is all. *Kūpa*-maṇḍūka. Kūpa-maṇḍūka does not know what is Atlantic Ocean. Frog. If frog living within the well, if he is informed, "There is Atlantic Ocean, sir, which is called jagat ."This is not jagat . You have become jagad-guru within the well. You become jagad-guru . Go to the Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean; *preach the Vedic culture—then you claim to become jagad*-guru . Otherwise don't falsely claim within the limit of your well. Kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya. So we have to select persons who can preach the Vedic culture all over the world, and this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means properly training. Now this boy, Mahāṁsa Swami, is known from today as Mahāṁsa Swami. He was brahmacāri . He is coming from Parsee community of Bombay. Similarly, we are selecting from all communities and training them how to become preacher of the Vedic culture. We require hundreds and thousands of preachers. Although we have got centers all over the world, but that is not sufficient. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted in every village and every town all over of the world: He wanted that pṛthivīte , on the surface of the globe, as many towns and cities and villages are there, everywhere this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. *So we have got a tremendous task. And the responsibility is more or less on the Indians, as I have already explained, bhārata*-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra (CC Adi 9.41). Manuṣya-janma , those who are actually human being born in this holy land of Bhārata-varṣa, they should learn this Vedic culture thoroughly and preach all over the world, so that they may be benefited. Para-upakāra. For want of this Vedic culture the whole world is in darkness. Tamo mukundam aṅghri niṣevayaiva. Tamo means this "darkness." So instead of competing them in other fields—how one can drink wine and one can eat fish and flesh—we are making competition in that way. There is no question of competing in this line. Just give them knowledge, so that they may be saved. This human form of life is not meant for becoming animals. So my request again, that those who are actually proud of becoming an Indian, they should come join, and preach this cult all over the world. Thank you very much. Audience: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- May 16, 1973, Los Angeles (Conversation with Krishna Tiwari - Molecular biologist) Prabhupāda: Proper. Kanpur proper. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. We were originally from a village, but we're living in Kanpur now. Prabhupāda: Kanpur. It's a big city. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Industrial city. Krishna Tiwari: My name is Krishna Tiwari. Prabhupāda: Tiwari. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. In Kanpur I had an old friend—he was just like my father—Tiwari. Very rich man. They have got their temple. Krishna Tiwari: Which place? I probably know it. Prabhupāda: In Kanpur there is a big temple that belongs to the Tiwari family. It is famous temple. Many people go there to visit. Krishna Tiwari: I haven't lived there too long. Lucknow, we came to Lucknow, and . . . *Prabhupāda: The temple is very old temple. So the proprietors of the temple are brahmins , Tiwari. So the eldest member, old Mr. Tiwari, was a very nice, great devotee. At home he had Deity, Rukmiṇī*-Kṛṣṇa. He was worshiping at home Rukmiṇī-Kṛṣṇa, Dvārakā. *Śyāmasundara: Mr. Tiwari is a well*-known scientist. Biolo . . . biologist? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecular biology Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor in U.C. . . . University of California at Irvine. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know how famous, but . . . (laughs) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying biology and molecular biology. You were in University of Southern California before, right? Krishna Tiwari: No, University of California to Los Angeles. UCLA. Prabhupāda: So: So biology . . . biology means the scientist dealing in living entities? Krishna Tiwari: Right. Prabhupāda: So I don't think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true. *Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata*-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this? Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughs) I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little. Prabhupāda: That is real scientist. Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the other hand . . . of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both . . . or all the people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious man. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two. Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be difference. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he got those data; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that. Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body, and the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you be—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be—their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. *Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemist, physicist, engineer, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point . . . angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like I was speaking that the measurement of the living entity is such and such. So how God has become so small? Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20). This is . . . this we can simply imagine: one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. I don't think any scientist can have any measuring instrument. Krishna Tiwari: I think that can be measured. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: I think they can measure that. Prabhupāda: Acha ? Krishna Tiwari: It can be measured. Prabhupāda: It can be measured? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: It can be measured; otherwise how it is said? Krishna Tiwari: Very easily measured. Prabhupāda: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul. Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there's no soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: Because they don't know how to look for it. Prabhupāda: Therefore, how they'll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure. Śyāmasundara: They can't find it. Prabhupāda: They cannot find it. Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it. Prabhupāda: Yes. We . . . I said, this is the measurement. Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the śāstra . Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then? Prabhupāda: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there. Krishna Tiwari: What is the measurement? *Prabhupāda: The one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's very easy to measure. Prabhupāda: So why don't you find it? Krishna Tiwari: But that's probably the reason. Nothing is there, just a number, because . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Krishna Tiwari: This is just a number, because one*-thousandth part of hair is just a big number that . . . *Prabhupāda: Not one thousandth. One ten*-thousandth. Krishna Tiwari: That doesn't matter. You can make it one millionth. Prabhupāda: How's that? Krishna Tiwari: It will be a measure of a distance, which is very easy. That cannot be a soul. Prabhupāda: So . . . no. That cannot be so easily . . . it is definitely said, jīvaḥ bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). Jīva means solo . . . soul. Soul's measurement is given there in the śāstra . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, but what are the . . . this is the . . . I don't know. This is the measurement, one thousandth of a . . . *Prabhupāda: One ten*-thousandth. Krishna Tiwari: . . . of a tip of hair? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is . . . I don't understand that, because that will be . . . at that time I think it was all right, because people thought nobody could measure one thousandth . . . ten*-thousandth of the tip of a hair. Prabhupāda: I . . . we don't say people could not measure. People could measure. People measured; therefore it is, the measurement is given there. It is not that people could not measure. People measured it, definitely, and then gave it—"This is the measure." Krishna Tiwari: Okay, so what you are trying to say? What symbolically it means, very small. Is that what it means? Is that what it means? Prabhupāda: Very small . . . that small part is there in every body. The soul is there. Now they, without finding it, they say soul is nirākāra : there is no measurement. That is my point. I say there is ākāra , form. Krishna Tiwari: There is a form of soul, according to you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they say there is no form. That is my point. Krishna Tiwari: Well, they don't know, probably, at this moment. But I don't . . . I . . . we have a trouble, at least I have a trouble, in understanding whether anybody else knows about soul. According to you . . . Prabhupāda: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the śāstra and we try to perceive, that's all. But there is something. That measurement very . . . may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point. Krishna Tiwari: Right. But I mean, with due respect to śāstras , after all, in my opinion śāstras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have . . . Prabhupāda: Not five thousand years. Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand? Prabhupāda: No. You cannot calculate. Krishna Tiwari: How . . . well, this is a different game then. Prabhupāda: No. We have got . . . because this, if we take on the strength of śāstra , we understand that after the birth of Brahmā . . . Brahmā created this universe. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Prabhupāda: But, uh, Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. I agree with that. Prabhupāda: So now, at the present moment, we are in one day's . . . Brahmā's one day we have passed only half. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). So one yuga is calculated to be forty-three lakhs of years. Now . . . Krishna Tiwari: That is also 4.3 million years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: That is 4.3 million. Prabhupāda: Yes, and multiplied by 1000. Krishna Tiwari: OK, we've got 4.3 billion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, that is the duration of daytime, one daytime of Brahmā. And similarly calculate night, similarly you calculate, that is twenty*-four hours, one day and night. Similarly, you calculate one month. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I understand that, Swāmījī, but, uh . . . Prabhupāda: In this way he lives for one hundred years, according to these calculation. Krishna Tiwari: I can understand that. But, see, we do know. We do know the age of the earth, and we know better than anybody else does. Prabhupāda: How can you know? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we know. We have our own measurements, which are very reliable. Different people will come up with the same number, and we do not have to depend upon any, you know, roundabout answer. Prabhupāda: No, we have to depend . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, we don't. Prabhupāda: . . . because your theories changes every year. Krishna Tiwari: No . . . well it changes, (laughter) because it is very . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to depend. Krishna Tiwari: No. Change is the law of nature. Change is the law of nature. Change . . . Prabhupāda: "Change is the law of nature," that's fine . . . Krishna Tiwari: And therefore . . . Prabhupāda: . . . but one should know the whole duration of change. Just like we know that sunrise, from the morning till evening, there are so many changes, but I know what is that changes. That is knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: That is true, but you . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "I know seventh year. I do not know what is going to happen ninth, eighth year." Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not the point. Point is that . . . point is how to . . . how long this earth where we all live . . . now we're talking about only this earth. How long this earth, we know, existed? Prabhupāda: I'm not talking of the earth. I'm talking of the whole universe. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Well, we'll talk about one object first, before we talk about universe next. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That means you are not in the knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: No. But Swāmījī, you want to talk about something, you want to start from something which is easy to comprehend and go further. How is it . . . Prabhupāda: Now, the whole universe is one unit. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with philosophy . . . Prabhupāda: If you study my whole body, you cannot begin studying my nails. Krishna Tiwari: But you have to study nails. Prabhupāda: That we . . . that will include. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair. Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere. Prabhupāda: No. That is . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientific process. Prabhupāda: Scientific process, you begin studying . . . suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say? Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I . . . can I have my some doubts? Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That because you are studying my body, you begin studying from my hair? Krishna Tiwari: Some place. Some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace. Prabhupāda: You think that is, uh, scientific? Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study . . . if they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul. Krishna Tiwari: But how we know about the soul? Prabhupāda: We know from the Vedic knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well somebody said there is a soul, but the question is, unless we all realize, and there is a way of . . . Prabhupāda: We realize. Everyone realize. As soon as the soul goes away, your body is lump of matter. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, (laughs) this is just dead. I mean, I don't know whether soul went away or not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You don't know, but I know. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's your belief. Prabhupāda: No belief. I'm taking . . . Krishna Tiwari: That's your belief. Prabhupāda: I'm taking my . . . Krishna Tiwari: It's my belief too that there's a soul, (laughing) but I, scientifically, I don't know. Prabhupāda: Your, your, your belief is also based on some scientific data. Krishna Tiwari: No. No. Beliefs can be anything. But I can believe he's out to kill me. He can believe I'm a bad man. Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: Belief has no foundation. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily foundation. Prabhupāda: Belief, belief is there. Fact is not belief. Fact is fact. Krishna Tiwari: Well, fact has to be established. Prabhupāda: Established? It is established. I say, I say that this is the distinction between dead man and living man. Krishna Tiwari: Will it extend to animals also? Prabhupāda: Anyone. Anyone. Krishna Tiwari: According to our Hindu philosophy, I understand everything has a soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everything. Everybody has a soul. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that makes me doubtful, because if I go into my laboratory and I can create as many souls I like. I can breed animals, as many as them I like. Prabhupāda: You cannot create. The souls are already there. You can find out . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well I . . . then I'm putting a lot of pressure on God. Every time I make lot of rats, I'm asking for rat souls. Prabhupāda: Rat has soul, yes. Krishna Tiwari: I know, but that's . . . why, why then I can do it? When I can . . . whenever I want them to be here, they will be here, not on the will of God. According to our concept of soul . . . Śyāmasundara: If he's in a laboratory and he's breeding rats, he's making rats have sex life and have babies, then he is controlling the souls of those rats. Prabhupāda: He is not controlling. He is controlling the body. Krishna Tiwari: Well, so body has soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: So I'm controlling the souls. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: No? I'm making them come. Prabhupāda: No. You cannot, you can . . . you cannot control the soul. Krishna Tiwari: I understand that. Prabhupāda: Otherwise . . . otherwise, when the soul is gone from the body . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . you could replace one soul. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's true. I mean that, I, uh, if you go . . . but my point is that the rat has a soul, and if God has something to do with the soul, then I should have no control of it. Prabhupāda: Apart from God. Apart . . . we're not going to God. Just like here . . . Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Let's talk about soul. Prabhupāda: You are studying the hair. Your point is you're studying . . . soul is the part of God, mamaivāṁśo (BG 15.7). God says: "The soul is My part and parcel." Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he's a dead body. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are biologist. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh? Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium. Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) What is that? Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill. Svarūpa Dāmodara: How? How is this? Krishna Tiwari: Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: How it comes? Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And this is not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lot of variables. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Going back to your example about rats . . . *Krishna Tiwari: Uh*-huh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . if I give you . . . you say you are creating rats. I give you this plant, can you create a rat from it? Krishna Tiwari: No. That is transformation of matter. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, that's . . . that's what creation means. If I give you nothing, can you create rat from it? Krishna Tiwari: No. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So all you're doing is playing with established laws of nature . . . Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . to create rats. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you're not creating anything. Krishna Tiwari: No. Not . . . I'm not . . . I'm perpetuating it. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not . . . Krishna Tiwari: At my will. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, you have given . . . you're given a will to perpetuate . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . to, to change a few things. *Krishna Tiwari: Uh*-huh. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A few things. You cannot perpetuate a rat out of that matter. Krishna Tiwari: Of course not. Of course not. Nobody else can. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, and all you can do is study that established law of nature by perpetuation of rats. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah but, yeah but . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: And that law of nature, Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . is my, is under my control. Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, it's not under your control. Krishna Tiwari: I can change a rat. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That as much as you go along with that law of nature . . . Krishna Tiwari: No. No. For example, we have found out the law of nature, yes. That is always the law of nature, and that is supreme. That I agree. But, but I can manipulate that law of nature as today, not me, with the help of all other scientists, which nobody else could do ever. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation is within that law of nature. Your manipulation fits within that law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Of course. Of course, I agree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And your manipulation, your intelligence . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot manipulate the law of nature. You are under the law. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree. Śyāmasundara: You can't bring a dead body back to life. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. But on other hand, on the other hand . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: So let's go from there. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's the limit. Prabhupāda: Then why don't . . . you cannot bring the dead body into life? Krishna Tiwari: I don't think this is the point of argument, because I have, I have already, I have already agreed that the body . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this is, this is the point, this is . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, no, wait, listen, because the point is this. I agree that the living gets dead and no science can revive it. Prabhupāda: Therefore, what is your science? Krishna Tiwari: Fine. But what I'm saying is that when the question of soul is something which is not at the moment visible to us or anybody. There is no indication that there is soul, because if there is soul in everything, I would imagine that that will not be controllable under laboratory conditions. If soul made us, then we should not be able to make differences amongst us. If, if the soul was the prime force, and was an important force, then such differences of very magnified nature as exists between one species, between the same species, for example human beings, or between the rats, they will not be under the control of the human beings. One could make rats with white eyes, same rat can be bred and made with blue eyes. Or rat can be made white to black. Now these knowledge, this knowledge which man has achieved by studying the law of nature would never have arrived if we just believed in total something which has been said. *Śyāmasundara: What . . . what good are blue*-eyed rats? Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is a different point. (laughter) What good is life? What good is anything? But that, that point is out of the question. Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're not creating anything new. Krishna Tiwari: I never said I did create anything new, but I changed those recognized things at will. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the laws of mutations. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, at will, at will, made by my own, which, which God . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. No. That will is not your own. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is not. Krishna Tiwari: Sure it is. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is limited. You . . . can you will to jump up, go to another star? Krishna Tiwari: No. No. We don't know yet, that. Prabhupāda: So you don't know so many things. Krishna Tiwari: Of course. I agree that on the first place. Prabhupāda: But we know. Krishna Tiwari: No. That's the difference. (laughter) What we do not know, we are ready to agree that we don't know. The trouble comes when people know nothing and they say they do know. Prabhupāda: No, we know. Now why . . . how do you say no? We know. Krishna Tiwari: No. This is your belief, and I'm not . . . Prabhupāda: It is not belief. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You can believe that too. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe too, but this is . . . belief, as somebody's belief. Say I may believe so many things, as you do, as Swāmījī does, as everybody else does. Prabhupāda: What is your explanation between dead body and living body? Krishna Tiwari: As I said, you see, it's a very complex thing, and I would not say something that I know from which probably I don't know. What we could measure in a dead body is that we see many things, you know. Things, say organs, are not working . . . Prabhupāda: Apart from the soul, how . . . what is your explanation of this dead body? Krishna Tiwari: We point that the organs get diseased, reactions do not take place as they do, and the nature of . . . law of nature takes over. We are the great believers of law of nature, better than other religious people. We believe law of nature more than anybody else does. Śyāmasundara: But you think you can control the law of nature? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I think so. I think so. This, this is the great . . . Ātreya Ṛṣi: Beyond the law of nature or within the law? Krishna Tiwari: Within the law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within the law of nature. Therefore you can never control it. Krishna Tiwari: Why not? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Within it, you're controlling it within it. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So, what is control there? Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's what we are doing it. Nobody else has told us to do it. We found it out. Nobody told us. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That, that is within it. Krishna Tiwari: Within it. I agree. We are all the subject of law of nature. Ātreya Ṛṣi: We, we . . . exactly. When you say "we," you are also within it. Krishna Tiwari: Of course I am. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right. Let's go beyond this, and see what is beyond this, and that's what Swāmījī . . . Krishna Tiwari: Beyond, nobody knows. Ātreya Ṛṣi: He knows. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know. Prabhupāda: No, beyond, therefore . . . no, no. Beyond . . . you see, as you say that you are within the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, I agree. We all of us are. Prabhupāda: So, somebody must be above law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Not necessarily. Prabhupāda: No, must be. Otherwise there cannot be law. Krishna Tiwari: Well, law or not, the ones which we need reading the books or administration, these are not those laws. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, just like . . . Śyāmasundara: He means the word "law." What does it mean? Prabhupāda: Just like, just like we are within the state law. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is somebody above the state laws; otherwise how the state laws is made? Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know which . . . somebody, in which sense we try to imagine it. *Prabhupāda: Why not imagine it? As soon as you say law, there must be a law*-giver. *Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree with that, but when you say law*-giver, see, people get different concepts. For, for . . . *Prabhupāda: Why different concepts? Law*-giver, just like . . . *Krishna Tiwari: For you, law*-giver may be something; *for me, law*-giver may be something else. *Prabhupāda: No, law*-giver is the same thing for you and me. Just like state laws comes from the government. Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. This comes from people. Prabhupāda: Anyway, there is an institution which is called government. It may be people. Krishna Tiwari: Well, which is made by people. Prabhupāda: But still, you, you are not controller of the state laws. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes, in a way I am. In a way I am. Prabhupāda: No. Anyway, that is a different thing. But you cannot violate the state laws. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, we can avoid them. If there is a bad law, you can change. Prabhupāda: Then you'll be punished. The state laws give you law that you cannot drive your car on the left. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, quite right. Prabhupāda: So if you violate, you become a criminal. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Right. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are subordinate to the law, and the law is given by another, bigger person. Krishna Tiwari: No bigger person. Now, now, these laws are made for . . . Prabhupāda: How you say it is not bigger? Government is bigger than you. Krishna Tiwari: No, no, no. That's misconception, whatsoever. As a matter of fact that's the opposite . . . Prabhupāda: It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. It is obstinacy. You cannot say government is under you. You are under government. Krishna Tiwari: No, I didn't say government was under me, but I said the laws are made for us . . . Prabhupāda: Why don't you try to understand? The government has given the register. Krishna Tiwari: Government is nothing. Government . . . Prabhupāda: Why do you say nothing? Why do you say nothing? You, why do you say nothing? What kind of scientist you are, you say the government is nothing? Krishna Tiwari: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know. You can say government is nothing in my room, but you'll say outside, you'll be arrested. (laughter) Krishna Tiwari: No, I can say outside too, because government is nothing. Prabhupāda: Why you say government is nothing? Krishna Tiwari: Government is by people. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you still you cannot say nothing. You are controlled by it. Krishna Tiwari: Well, controlled by it, by, by we, we agree with them, for our good or for what . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you agree. First of all you agree . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . that government gives law and you are under the law. Krishna Tiwari: I don't think I can agree with that. Prabhupāda: That is your obstinacy. Krishna Tiwari: No. It's not obstinacy at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. You're under the law. Krishna Tiwari: No, I, I, I . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: Because they . . . you are assuming government is . . . Prabhupāda: First of all you agree, agree this principle! Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Prabhupāda: What is this? (laughing) He says you are not under the government of law? Krishna Tiwari: That is different material. Prabhupāda: Why different matter? First of all you agree this! Krishna Tiwari: How can I agree? Government is us. We govern ourselves. Prabhupāda: You are. You are. You are ordered not to drive your car on the left: you must . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't. I don't want to. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Therefore you are under the laws of the government. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are under the laws of the . . . we are following the same laws. If you violate the laws, of course, just like Prabhupāda says, if you drive on the right side . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well, in a minor sense it is true. But what I'm saying is that those laws came about because we decided it was good for us. Prabhupāda: That is . . . Krishna Tiwari: That's what I would say. Śyāmasundara: That's another consideration. He merely wants to define the word "law." You're using the word "natural law." He wants to understand what does the concept mean, "law." Devotee (1): This is an example. It's just an example. Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree, but so long we understand that government is not somebody from up . . . Śyāmasundara: In Russia it is. Krishna Tiwari: In Russia it is, and I don't care for it. Prabhupāda: That you don't care for it . . . the point is you are under nature's law. There must be somebody who is controlling nature's law. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. It could be. Śyāmasundara: Unless you think that you have made some by your vote or something. Krishna Tiwari: No, I never made that. No. That was the difference I was going to tell. If you'll give an example of a government, that is very different from the example of nature. Śyāmasundara: Yes. No analogy is perfect. So it's more like the Russian government, let's say. Right? Prabhupāda: That government, what does it mean, "government"? Government means also a person, like president. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Here in America, the government means President Nixon. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, okay, if you want to believe that. Prabhupāda: Why not believe? It is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree with it at all. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Why don't you agree? Then you are madman. You are a madman. (laughter) Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) No, no. I don't agree with you, Swāmījī, at all. Prabhupāda: No, no . . . yes. Krishna Tiwari: I don't agree. Because I don't think . . . I don't think that some . . . it is the government. Devotee (1): This is, this is, you know this is still going off the point. The point is still being made that you've already agreed with that you are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. Devotee (1): And that you did not take a hand in determining these laws. Krishna Tiwari: Okay, I agree. Devotee (1): He agrees that he's under the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: But I do not agree with some of your government orders. Devotee (1): That's fine. We'll keep it . . . Prabhupāda: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: All right . . . Prabhupāda: And the laws of nature . . . (break) Krishna Tiwari: From my opinion, something which I do know. *Prabhupāda: But we know, we know in this way, that Lord Kṛṣṇa says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working." Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know who, who, who, who said that . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know; *therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad*-gītā . You do not know therefore you learn it. *Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad*-gītā . I am aware of it. I know what is said there. Prabhupāda: Here it is said: You are coming from Indian brahmin family, you must know it. Krishna Tiwari: I know it. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Krishna Tiwari: I have also read it. I have Bhagavad*-gītā with me, always reading . . . Prabhupāda: So, yes, here is the controller of the, controller of the material nature. *Krishna Tiwari: Yes. But who? The book . . . you see, the difference is philosophically. As far as the philosophy of the Bhagavad*-gītā is concerned, fine. But when since we start talking about somebody controlling, and identifying somebody with somebody, I have troubles, as everybody else will. Prabhupāda: Well, no, no trouble. First of all, we have accepted that we are under the control of laws of nature. That is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Now we say . . . not we say, our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe. Me, I don't know about that. Prabhupāda: You don't know. Why don't you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said. Krishna Tiwari: I'm giving a scientific opinion, not my opinion. Scientists don't know. Prabhupāda: That scientists, but that the scientists are fools. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know that or that. Prabhupāda: Yes! They are fools. Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) We . . . I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Prabhupāda: Maybe? Yes! Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes. Prabhupāda: No, no problem. This is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: We do not know for fact, and nobody else does. Prabhupāda: What? Krishna Tiwari: See, when we do not . . . we say we do not know, we are just being modest. Śyāmasundara: But he knows. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know about that. Śyāmasundara: But he's trying to tell if you'll listen. Krishna Tiwari: I, I have heard about those things, but I just don't know about the, how to believe . . . Prabhupāda: That means, that means you are unbeliever. Krishna Tiwari: No, not at all. Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. That you are unbeliever. Krishna Tiwari: Not at all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If, if he doesn't know who He is, who is controlling? Prabhupāda: Then he is . . .? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then he is admitting that there is a controller. You admit that there is a controller, but you don't know. You're telling us that you do not see Him and you do not know Him. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Well, you can say that. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You cannot make finalize . . . Krishna Tiwari: My point is I don't know, and I'm not too sure you know it either. (laughter) Prabhupāda: I know. I know, because we are getting from authority of Veda . We know. Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, *Vedas* are there, but Swāmījī . . . Prabhupāda: You are, you are, you are, you . . . Krishna Tiwari: When I was in India, dying in smallpox, children were dying in smallpox, and we were going to all the knowledge of Veda people, and they were sending us to the temple, and we, we go and worship, and the people will die and, and they didn't tell us anything about some kind of injection which could protect it. And the scientist people who went and found out about nature, they found out something, and children are not dying anymore. They are not deformed. I don't know about that . . . Prabhupāda: You have stopped the death of children? Krishna Tiwari: We haven't stopped, but we sure don't see them blind because of smallpox. Śyāmasundara: Because they're all in the hospitals. Krishna Tiwari: Because of smallpox, we don't see them blinded. Śyāmasundara: But they die. Krishna Tiwari: Eventually everybody dies. Śyāmasundara: Yes. (all speak at once) Devotee: The thing that we're trying to get at is not the . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know so many points. First of all this point, let us decide, that every one of us under the law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can save the child for the time being by some injection, but it is under the laws of nature, it will die. That's a fact. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I agree. Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, is also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is government, democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact. Therefore the laws of nature is controlled by somebody, controller, and we get this information from Vedic knowledge. And practically it is so, that just by the example, law must be given by somebody. Law is not blind, or something dropped from the sky. Law is law. It is made by somebody. That is law. It is working systematically. That is law. *So when there is systematic law, there is systematic law*-giver, controller, supervisor, superintendent. So we are not imagining, but we take it from authority, Vedic information, which is accepted by a great culture, great ācāryas , great teachers. Not that I am blindly accepting it, but we are in the disciplic succession in the Vedic knowledge. So from there we understand, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), Vedānta - sūtra . Vedānta - sūtra . Vedānta . Veda means knowledge. It includes your scientific knowledge also. Veda means knowledge, and anta means ultimate. That is called Vedānta - sūtra . In small codes, the things are given there in the Vedic knowledge. Just like what is the ultimate Absolute Truth, the question, athāto brahma jijñāsā . Brahman means absolute, the biggest. So the answer is, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is Absolute Truth, Supreme Brahman, wherefrom everything comes. So the laws of nature comes from Me. Krishna Tiwari: This is all imagination fine with me. I mean, this is all imagination and belief which is fine with me. I mean I have no objection . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is the imagination? Not here, imagination. When you learn from a, a . . . just like the law of gravitation, it is not imagination. Krishna Tiwari: Well law of gravitation . . . anything we know about gravity did not come from *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Not from Veda , but it comes from Mr. Newton. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, that what I was saying . . . Prabhupāda: So therefore you take the laws of gravitation from Mr. Newton. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is an authority. Krishna Tiwari: Well, Newton was wrong in many places, although nobody is authority. Things change. I don't . . . Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept any authority. Krishna Tiwari: No, I don't, because once you accept an authority, you are just blindly following something which may be right, which may be absolutely wrong. But you will never find it out whether it was right or wrong. So blind faith in authority is the most mistaken path a person can ever take. Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. We don't say authority blind faith. Authority, that's not blind faith. Krishna Tiwari: And just . . . Prabhupāda: Now, just . . . suppose, to know your father, the authority is your mother. The mother says: "Here is your father." You follow blindly. Krishna Tiwari: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: No. It is a different thing. Prabhupāda: Your mother may say wrong. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, well, this is, this kind of examples are very . . . Prabhupāda: Why not this kind of example? Krishna Tiwari: They're unreal. Prabhupāda: Not unreal. The authority means you have to follow blindly. That is authority. That is my point. Krishna Tiwari: No, no. You believe something. You, you . . . Prabhupāda: Believe, because it is fact. Krishna Tiwari: You, whenever you use word "follow," "authority," you are talking of subjugation. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes! Yes! Krishna Tiwari: And subjugation is different than faith and belief. Prabhupāda: No, no. Sub . . . we believe in the subjugation, because . . . Krishna Tiwari: Well, I do not believe in subjugation. Prabhupāda: That is your madness, because you know. Krishna Tiwari: No, no. No way, no way you can say that. (laughing) Prabhupāda: No, no, don't be upset. You said that you are under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: I am. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are under subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: But, but I do not believe these kind of "authority" words. Prabhupāda: You believe. You believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation? Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . that's a part of the nature. Difference between . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: . . . big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature. Prabhupāda: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It's automatic; it's, it's just a chain. It's a growth into. It's a pattern; it's no force. Prabhupāda: That automatic means just like you become criminal. Krishna Tiwari: That, that's the way progress, I'm a part of it. I'm not under or over anybody, and nobody is over, under, or above me. You are not under me. You are not over me. Śyāmasundara: You're under nature's law. Krishna Tiwari: Right, we all are. You, me, Swāmījī, you, all of us are. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Exactly. Krishna Tiwari: Neither you are above me, nor you are below, nor I am above you. I may have respect for you, because I, on my own, believe that you are respectable. That is entirely different thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's up to you. Krishna Tiwari: Then authority. Yes. That's what I'm saying. This is up to me. But authority and subjugation are, are the two things which will not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a matter of your choice. Accepting . . . Krishna Tiwari: It's a matter of personal choice. Prabhupāda: If you are not under subjugation, that does not authority? Krishna Tiwari: I'm no, I'm no, I'm no subjugation to anyone. I'm a part of the nature. Prabhupāda: How is that you're not . . . Krishna Tiwari: If nature moves, I move with it. If the nature makes me old, I get old. Prabhupāda: You have here subjugation. Krishna Tiwari: I am no . . . I'm a part of a . . . nature is changing too. Nature is nothing which is, which is static. Prabhupāda: Nature is not changing. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, sure it is changing. Prabhupāda: Not changing. Krishna Tiwari: Well, my belief is it's changing, and even Lord Kṛṣṇa says it changes. Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: I think He does. Prabhupāda: Nature is changing . . . *Krishna Tiwari: Ever changing. Ever*-changing world is the theme of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: There's always winter, there's always summer. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, and things have changed, much, much more than you have observed just by winter and spring, and the change, the change of the world, change of the nature is the Lord in *Gītā* philosophy itself. And I'm a great believer in *Gītā* philosophy, but I just don't buy subjugation or authority. Śyāmasundara: Then how can you . . . then you say, you say you can determine the age of the earth. Krishna Tiwari: I have not determined. I mean, thousands of scientists have combined. Śyāmasundara: You say you believe, you believe in some of the . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I believe that number very well. Yes. Śyāmasundara: Then you believe in authority. Krishna Tiwari: No, because I can make my own calculation using his things. Śyāmasundara: But you said that earth changes so much. *Krishna Tiwari: It does. It's ever*-changing. Śyāmasundara: Then how can you measure it? Krishna Tiwari: That you . . . there are ways to do it. I mean, that, the what is earth today will not be tomorrow. Śyāmasundara: Measurements are blunt. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, of course. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Can I, can I summarize to you what our position on authority is? What we're talking about is that simply you're saying we both agree that there is a very beautiful set*-up here. It's not accidental set-up . . . (indistinct) . . . intelligent laws of nature. We both agree that there must be something beyond it. Krishna Tiwari: I agree. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You agree. Now you don't know beyond that. You have not . . . you say: "I don't have time," or somehow . . . Krishna Tiwari: No. I have lot of time, just I can't find. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly, exactly. You made your choice not to go after, or you cannot find it, you say. Krishna Tiwari: No, that's, that's not . . . that's your words. That's not my words. My desire is to find more, much, much more than you can place this. (laughs) Ātreya Ṛṣi: Fine. But about that person, you see, you can find and find and find. You've got an outlet. You can get his hair and analyze. Each hair you can see millions of atoms. You can count the atoms in each hair. You can go further and further and further. But if you don't know that is an elephant, that's . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to know it is an elephant. You're right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we're talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator. Krishna Tiwari: Right. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, when . . . Krishna Tiwari: I think we don't have that much difference of opinion. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . which we know, this is the only process to find a creator, because we are . . . Krishna Tiwari: How you know that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . His subordinate . . . Krishna Tiwari: How you know that about? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are His subordinate. Now, and you will know, if you follow the process, you will know too. Krishna Tiwari: How? Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have to accept one by one. You have to accept first of all that He is the authority. Krishna Tiwari: Well, how can you accept somebody's authority without knowing them? Śyāmasundara: Like your mother. He gave the example. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Exactly. Krishna Tiwari: No. I believed in her. That's all I said. Prabhupāda: You believe. Krishna Tiwari: If she says . . . if she says he's my father, I believe. Śyāmasundara: You think she's trying to cheat you? Krishna Tiwari: No, I'm not. That's why I believe her. The question of authority does not come. Ātreya Ṛṣi: So you have to believe that there is an alternative beyond and above this law of nature. Krishna Tiwari: Believe? I always said from the very beginning, beliefs are entirely different thing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And you have to understand where does this information come from. This doesn't come accidentally. It comes from the source of information. And this source of information we call the *Vedas* . It is not an accidental literature. Prabhupāda: The Veda means knowledge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's knowledge. Prabhupāda: Knowledge coming from, just like you were talking about. Ātreya Ṛṣi: And where is it coming from? It's coming, it's coming from the source. Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't . . . I think we have a, just a matter of words. You said knowledge is coming from source. I think knowledge is coming from people. Ātreya Ṛṣi: How could you know? Śyāmasundara: Your knowledge is always changing, just like the carbon-14 test. You say . . . you might had said a few months back, "Yes, I believe the earth is this old," and now you have to say: "No, I believe now the earth is half that old." So your knowledge is constantly changing. Krishna Tiwari: Because that's better and better. Śyāmasundara: Better and better. Have you improved the world? Do you think you've made one improvement in the world? Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has. We have made better than what others, everybody else combined, Christ and everybody else combined did, and Lord Kṛṣṇa included. Śyāmasundara: How do you measure that improvement? Prabhupāda: Now, this is another point. First of all you must settle up this. (laughter) Sir, first of all we must settle up this point, that we are all under the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: I agree, Swāmījī, completely. Prabhupāda: Just hear me. Now the point is, we, we say the laws of nature is also given by somebody else. That is our point. Krishna Tiwari: Which probably I have nothing to add to. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but my one . . . Prabhupāda: Now, what is that person, that is another thing, but simply let us agree that we are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is also controlled by somebody. Krishna Tiwari: Well, we can say that . . . Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. Now, who is that person, or what is that substance which is controlling the law of nature, that is not yet known to the science. Krishna Tiwari: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. But we, either you say "believe" or you know, we know. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's okay. Okay, because everybody is free to believe in it. But one cannot say. Prabhupāda: That is the point. You don't believe that; we believe that. Krishna Tiwari: No, that is not true. I didn't say that. I agreed with it. But I do not know who the person is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Krishna Tiwari: . . . when I will have . . . Prabhupāda: I don't say who, but you have to believe that there is a person and there is a superior authority. Krishna Tiwari: Person, I don't think so. It's not from person. Not in my opinion. Prabhupāda: Or not person; something, something superior to these laws of material nature. That you have to accept. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior. Krishna Tiwari: That's fine. I don't think we have any disagreement on that point. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us agree to that point. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let us agree to that point. Now what is that something, that remains, for the time being. I may say: "I know", you may say: "I don't believe in it." That is a different thing. But there must be something above the laws of nature which is controlling. That is all. Krishna Tiwari: I agree. Prabhupāda: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is . . . but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no . . . Prabhupāda: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say, "Here is the controller." Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one . . . oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other. Prabhupāda: No. We don't know by your process. Krishna Tiwari: By any process. Prabhupāda: That is your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference. Krishna Tiwari: That's where my trouble is, and I . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, your trouble must be there. Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Prabhupāda: Because you're godless. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your problem. Krishna Tiwari: Not true. Not true. Prabhupāda: That is your trouble. Krishna Tiwari: No, no . . . okay, go on saying like that. Fine. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are godless in this sense: because you are born in India, born in a brahmin family, and you do not believe Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Krishna Tiwari: Oh. I do not believe, but uh, I do believe that God is, but I do not understand whether the . . . (indistinct) . . . God or not. I don't know. Prabhupāda: You do not understand, that is your godlessness. That is your godlessness, because . . . Krishna Tiwari: No, that's not my godlessness at all. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes . . . Śyāmasundara: Please listen while he explains the process of how to know God. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa means one who knows the Brahman. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa . So at least you are not a brāhmaṇa , because you do not know the Brahman. Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in classes anyway. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: It's all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there, that is your defect. One has to become a brāhmaṇa . One has to. But you're deviated from brāhmaṇism. Krishna Tiwari: I'm glad I did. (laughs) I'm really happy I did. I can assure you, Swāmī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Krishna Tiwari: If I meet God, I'll tell Him I'm glad I did. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all right. The demons always say like that. (devotees laugh). The demons say always like that. That is the fashion of the demons. Krishna Tiwari: No, it's not true. (laughing) You know, Swāmījī, what I am telling you, it's not true, because I know I'm a brahmin's son. Prabhupāda: You are. Krishna Tiwari: I know a lot about . . . Prabhupāda: You are. Krishna Tiwari: A lot about reading *Gītā* myself . . . Prabhupāda: You have become a demon. Krishna Tiwari: Huh? Prabhupāda: From brahmin you have become a demon. Krishna Tiwari: I have not become demon, and God knows it. I am much more better man, right now . . . Prabhupāda: Demons always know better than God. Krishna Tiwari: Is that right? I don't know better than God. Oh, I never said that. What I'm saying is God knows I'm not a bad man. I'm not a demon. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Demon's position is always to challenge God that, "I know better than You." Krishna Tiwari: I never said that. (laughing) Prabhupāda: That is demonism. That is demonism. Krishna Tiwari: No, Swāmījī, you did not hear me. Prabhupāda: Yes, I hear. I know. Krishna Tiwari: I said that God knows I'm not a demon. I did not say I am better than God. Śyāmasundara: Can we hear what he knows, what is his knowledge? What he thinks is his knowledge? What do you know . . .? Krishna Tiwari: Can I say about my concept of God and philosophy? Śyāmasundara: No, no, no, not that. That's speculation. Let's hear what you think . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, it's better speculation than yours. (laughs) Śyāmasundara: Let's hear what you know through your scientific . . . you say you only accept knowledge which is scientifically verifiable. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I never said that. I was giving you . . . Prabhupāda: One thing is, that he has accepted that there is a controller of the nature. Now, what is that controller you do not know. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. Prabhupāda: That's it. So we know. That is the difference. You believe me or not, that is another thing. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. All right. Prabhupāda: I say that controller is Kṛṣṇa. Now you may disagree with me. But I have got evidence from the śāstra that Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all brahmins in India. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I accept Him too. Prabhupāda: Yes, that He is the supreme controller. I have got that authority—Rāmānujācārya, he is a brahmin ; Madhvācārya, he is a brahmin . Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is a brahmin . They're born in brahmin family. Śaṅkarācārya, he was a brāhmaṇa . Krishna Tiwari: I know all of them. Prabhupāda: So all of them have agreed. So in my background, we have got so many authorities, but when you say, you have no background. That is the difference between you and me. Krishna Tiwari: Swāmījī, our śāstra also say that, "You seek and you'll find." And, and, and "The person who seeketh himself . . ." Prabhupāda: No. Krishna Tiwari: ". . . will find, will have a better chance of finding Me." Prabhupāda: No. Śyāmasundara: Where is that said? Prabhupāda: We don't agree to that. We don't agree. Śyāmasundara: Where is that said? Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'll show you many books where, where the philosophy has been . . . *Prabhupāda: Now we are talking of Bhagavad*-gītā . Can you say any quotation? Krishna Tiwari: No, I do not follow them by quotation, by quotation. Prabhupāda: Then don't say śāstra . Don't say "our śāstra ." You don't believe in śāstra . You do not know śāstra . Therefore don't say "our śāstra ." You'll say in your scientific point of views. Don't say your śāstra . Śyāmasundara: Say what you have found through your scientific process. Tell us what knowledge is. Tell us what . . . how things are working, then. What is the, what is the process of scientific . . . Prabhupāda: How the nature, law of nature is being controlled? Where is your scientific . . . Krishna Tiwari: I, I already agreed, and all scientists agree that they know nothing about it. Prabhupāda: That's all. That you don't know. Śyāmasundara: So then your process is imperfect. You admit. We're saying that there's a process which is perfect, and it's a process of receiving knowledge which is absolute, that is descending, and receiving that with a submissive attitude. And you're saying that by your sensuous endeavor with your different machines and instruments, you can ascend to the Absolute Truth. But the symptom of a person who is in knowledge is that he's satisfied, he's peaceful within, and we can understand that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness Society is developing, is helping living entities, people, become satisfied within by receiving knowledge and actually coming to . . . to understand themselves and what's around them and so forth, whereas, let me ask you, how many people have actually come to this stage of peacefulness and knowledge, of being freed from the need for intoxication and so many different things, by your scientific method? In other words, has this process helped you to be actually filled with knowledge and bliss, or has it simply sent you into more questioning and more doubt until you come to a point of what we were discussing the other day, the Heisenberg's theory of uncertainty? Ultimately you come to the theory of uncertainty. So we're saying, when you come to this point, then you may as well just relax and try to have a submissive attitude—or any scientist—and try to receive knowledge which is descending. Prabhupāda: Another, another thing is, he says, he says that he does not know what is there beyond this material nature. But he's still satisfied with that imperfect knowledge. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Śyāmasundara: That's right. You should not be satisfied with that imperfect knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Wait a minute. Prabhupāda: To be satisfied with imperfect knowledge is the qualification of an animal. Krishna Tiwari: Correct. But this was your words. It were not mine. I didn't say that I was satisfied. You presumed I was satisfied. Prabhupāda: No. Yes, yes. You said that we know artificially; we don't know philosophy. Krishna Tiwari: I never said that we're not trying to find out. Ātreya Ṛṣi: All right, then, and you have tried, and you . . . Krishna Tiwari: Oh, we are still trying to . . . you have to try very hard to find out these things. My question is, when I say . . . wait a minute, let me talk something. When I say I do not know, that does not necessarily mean that others know. And you are taking this real point. I am saying in my humbleness that I do not know, and you come up, "Well, I know that." Because I don't know, you are supposed to know. That's not true. I just say you don't know either. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, that . . . but you cannot say, also, because you do not know, others do not know. You cannot say. Krishna Tiwari: No. I never said that. I don't . . . I didn't say that. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You did. You just did. Krishna Tiwari: No, but you'll come back and tell me that, "I know." Then I cannot believe you that because I said I don't know, you have to know. Prabhupāda: "I, I know" means I know from the authority, who knows. Krishna Tiwari: How? Which authority is that? Prabhupāda: That, I say, I present this, *Vedas* authority. You don't . . . Krishna Tiwari: (indistinct) . . . with those. Prabhupāda: You do not believe in the *Vedas* , that is a different thing. But I am saying I know from the authority. Krishna Tiwari: I have seen that. I have seen . . . I have lived in India. Prabhupāda: That is my position. Krishna Tiwari: I have lived in everywhere. If *Vedas* were all that great and we have followed *Vedas* for thousand of years . . . Prabhupāda: No. You might have . . . Krishna Tiwari: . . . look what it has done to the country. Prabhupāda: You might have faith . . . Śyāmasundara: It is still there. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* are still . . . Krishna Tiwari: In what situation? Prabhupāda: It is not what situation. It is what situation for you. You do not believe. Krishna Tiwari: After the crisis is doing much better. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* , authorities, they have been accepted by all the ācāryas , by the, all the brahmins , all great personalities in India. That is our authority. Now, you don't believe in authority. That is you have become deviated from *Vedas* . That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: Well, if you want to say that point. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion. Prabhupāda: That we have got our authority. That's all. Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion, because I look with eyes open; I make my own mind. Prabhupāda: This opinion, it is your opinion. Because you are Indian, I am also Indian. I believe you don't believe. Krishna Tiwari: Sure, I do not believe. Prabhupāda: So it is your opinion. Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in the strict following of every word . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view. Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one. Śyāmasundara: You said once, in a court of law, if there are two points of view at the final judgment, it has to be judged by the results of which point of view. So if you, if you judge by the results of our process and his process which people are . . . have attained to some kind of perfect understanding of themselves, some kind of satisfaction with life, you have to point to our process and say that ours gets the balance of favorable opinion, because in your process, no one has been made happy. Krishna Tiwari: How does say that in your process anybody has been made happy? Prabhupāda: Everyone who follows Vedic injunctions, they're happy. Śyāmasundara: You ask me. Krishna Tiwari: You ask me. I'm very happy. Prabhupāda: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. (laughing) Again it's the same thing. Prabhupāda: You said, you said . . . no. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal. Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is. Prabhupāda: Imperfect knowledge and happiness. Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you're talking about. You cannot be perfect either. Prabhupāda: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is . . . Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . no. You have no such power. You have no such superpower. Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have no such superpower, but . . . Prabhupāda: You say that you do not know anything beyond this material laws of nature. That you do not know. Therefore you do not know what is that superpower, which is controlling. But I know the superpower. Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's my question. I don't know whether you know that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference. Śyāmasundara: So, you should not make up the conclusion that just because you don't know, that someone else also doesn't know. Krishna Tiwari: No, I agree with you completely, but my point of this is that this is the difference between religious and the scientific approach of finding the superpower. When science finds . . . Prabhupāda: This is not religious. Krishna Tiwari: Whatever it is. Prabhupāda: It is not faith. Krishna Tiwari: Whatever. Prabhupāda: It is fact. It is science. Krishna Tiwari: Science. It is this kind of science then, because there is no way to prove it. When a person finds . . . Prabhupāda: There is proof. There is proof. Krishna Tiwari: . . . anywhere in the world . . . Prabhupāda: You don't say there is no proof. Krishna Tiwari: . . . in science, you can do the same thing in your place. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is proof. There is proof. Because, because the laws of nature is being controlled, that is the proof there is somebody controlling. That is the proof. Krishna Tiwari: Well, okay, suppose we grant that. Suppose we grant that, that that is the case, then what we do about it? Prabhupāda: So that, you do not know that. We know that. That is our difference. Krishna Tiwari: Okay. Suppose we believe that this is the case. Then we do about it? Prabhupāda: That, then our knowledge is perfect and your knowledge . . . Krishna Tiwari: Then sit and just request him to do something. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Śyāmasundara: No. The process is given. If, he, he . . . Prabhupāda: Just . . . we, the difference is that your process is imperfect because you do not know exactly who is the controller of the laws of nature. Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else does know either. Prabhupāda: I, nobody . . . I say know, still you say nobody knows. Krishna Tiwari: Oh, yeah, I agree. That's your belief, but I don't think you know that. Prabhupāda: Why belief? I say your belief also. That there is no controller there, that is also your belief. Krishna Tiwari: No. There is a controller. I say you don't know. Prabhupāda: Why you are giving so much importance to your method of understanding? Krishna Tiwari: (laughs) Because there is only one each of us can do. Prabhupāda: That is the idea. So if you give so much importance to your method of understanding, why don't you give more importance to our method of understanding? Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have been seeing the results of . . . Prabhupāda: Your method is imperfect. I have seen. Krishna Tiwari: But others is more imperfect. Prabhupāda: Huh? Krishna Tiwari: Others is . . . Prabhupāda: No, others are perfect. Krishna Tiwari: Very imperfect, Swāmījī. Very imperfect. Prabhupāda: No, very perfect. Very perfect. Krishna Tiwari: Exactly what I'm saying to . . . well, that's what I'm saying. Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection? Krishna Tiwari: What? Śyāmasundara: What is your standard of perfection? Krishna Tiwari: My, well my, to understand the law of nature, first thing. Now, when, when scientists have gone to understand the law of nature . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 13, 1973, London (Conversation with Educationists) Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that? Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura , they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa . . . according to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra . So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya . So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas , administrator class. Yes. So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books? Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We couldn't keep all. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have also known? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: No? Huh? Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still know very little. *Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him, "Get up! Get up! You have got this engagement. You have . . ." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them, "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta*-varān nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14): "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. And if he sleeps, then he loses his business. This is our mission, to awaken him. And when a man sleeps, how he can awaken him? Simply by vibration of sound. The sleeping man can be awakened simply by this process, allowing the sound to enter the ear. By no other process. He's sleeping. If you show him a stick, "If you don't get up, I shall strike you," that will not be effective. Because sleeping. If you say . . . so many things, there are other senses—there will be no action. But only through the ear, if you cry, "Please get up! Please get up! Now your time," that will act. So our process is that, to force him to hear. Then he'll be awakened, by hearing. Therefore Vedic literature is called śruti. Śruti means it has to be received by hearing. You may be uneducated; it doesn't matter. If you simply hear from the right source, you get right knowledge. There is no need of education. Simply by hearing. Guest (1): You teach your children, don't you? Prabhupāda: Yes, all my disciples, they're taught. Guest (1): No, I didn't mean disciples. I meant children, little ones. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got children's school also. Guest (1): They understand, do they not? *Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Because hearing is there. Everyone, even a child, after hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , he claps, he dances, he joins. That is practical. We have seen, small child, say four, five months old, on the lap of the mother, he's also moving, clapping. So this, this is also yoga system, bhakti*-yoga . So it is so practical that even a small child can take part in it, without any advanced knowledge. Universal. Guest (1): Sorry? Prabhupāda: Universal. Even dogs sometimes, they take part. We have got practical experience. They don't like to leave us. (laughter) Yes, I have seen. Devotee: I have, too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They like this chanting and dancing. So we are . . . our business is to awake the sleeping man. Sleeping man means when you sleep you have no knowledge. If somebody kills you, you cannot protect yourself. Sleeping. That is sleeping stage, that we do not know what is happening. That is called sleeping stage. Even if you are so*-called awakened, if you do not know the value of life, that is sleeping stage. That is sleeping stage. So in that sleeping stage, we are trying to awake the human society. A man, a human being, may be materially very qualified, but he does not know what is the value of human life, he's sleeping. He's sleeping. Can you distinguish—you are all educationist—what is the difference between a human being and an animal? Guest (1): Higher intelligence? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Higher intelligence, I guess. Prabhupāda: What is that higher intelligence? Guest (1): Speech and ability to compute what you hear. Prabhupāda: Oh, that, dog can also do. If you train dog that, "If somebody, outsider, comes, you bark," he'll do it. Guest (2): The consciousness is . . . Prabhupāda: And so . . . real intelligence is that to know "What I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake . . . so many things. So nobody wants to die, but death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made? What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means, "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there, three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease, diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind . . . body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pain. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects, they give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's . . . all of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like all, in India there is drought; they are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, suffering's going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think, "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse, he cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. *So this division— brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra —means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa . He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati ( BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas . Next, the vaiśyas . And the śūdras , they are like . . . almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go, "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancy." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food?" Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut! " This is the position. *Therefore in this age, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ (Skanda Purāṇa). In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa , no kṣatriya . There are some vaiśyas . And all śūdras . Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big . . . what is that? Śūdras . They are creating śūdras : "People should be dependent." Unless you work . . . therefore people are going fifty miles away, going . . . I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side . . . what is that? Haṁsadūta: Connecticut. Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island? Haṁsadūta: Staten Island. Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra , just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Guest (1): I couldn't follow you. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): I haven't followed you. Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not . . . no intelligence? Guest (1): I think you're right. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter) Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts in the matter really aren't worth very much. Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. *Guest (1): How can we, in a money*-orientated world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent? *Guest (1): In a money*-orientated world. Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence. Guest (1): No, I know. Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent. Guest (1): No, I understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money if you become independent, that is intelligence. Śrutakīrti: That was her question. Prabhupāda: Ah. That, if you can get Kṛṣṇa, you'll . . . Guest (1): But how do you . . . what I mean is how do you, how can you . . . *Prabhupāda: That "How to," that we shall teach, as we are teaching others. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is stated: Yaṁ labdhvā. You get something which getting, you will be satisfied, "I don't want anything more." That is highest gain. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. Cāparam. Another kind of benefit is not required. So yasmin sthite : if we remain in that position, then even there is hardest difficulty of life, he'll not be disturbed. (pause) Where is Paṇḍitjī? Devotee: I'll get him. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Should I put on the light, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. (Pradyumna enters) Sit down. (pause) He gets such thing, when he gets it, he'll consider that he doesn't want anything more. That is the greatest profit. And the result is that when one gets that thing, even he is in the greatest difficulty of life, he's not disturbed. *Hmm. (to Pradyumna) Take that. Bhagavad*-gītā . Yaṁ labdhvā. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. I think it is in the Sixth Chapter. Pradyumna: Yaṁ nam ? Prabhupāda: Labdhvā . Pradyumna: Oh, cāparaṁ lābham ? Prabhupāda: Ah. Pradyumna: 6.22. "Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this, he thinks there is no greater gain. Being situated in such a position, one is never shaken, even in the midst of greatest difficulty. This, indeed, is actual freedom from all miseries arising from material contact." Prabhupāda: Purport. Pradyumna: "By practice of yoga , one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle. And after this, one becomes situated in trance, or samādhi , which means that the yogī realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Patañjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation, but they do not understand the real purpose of the Patañjali system of yoga ." *"There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patañjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the non*-dualist, but in this verse transcendental pleasure, realized through transcendental senses, is accepted, and this is corroborated by the Patañjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declares in his yoga-sūtras (4.34): puruṣārtha-śūnyānāṁ guṇānāṁ pratiprasavaḥ kaivalyaṁ svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti ." *"This citi-śakti , or internal potency, is transcendental. Puruṣārtha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This oneness with the Supreme is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patañjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam , or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This clearance is actually liberation, or bhava-mahādāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12). The theory of nirvāṇa —also preliminary—corresponds with this principle. In the Bhāgavatam this is called svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). The Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this situation in this verse." *"After nirvāṇa , or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service of the Lord, known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the words of the Bhāgavatam, svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ : this is the real life of the living entity. Māyā , or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original eternal position of the living entity. Patañjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyam svarūpa*-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti . This citi-śakti , or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtras as ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). This natural transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga . Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā ." *"In the yoga system as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samādhi , called samprajñāta*-samādhi and asamprajñāta-samādhi . When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, it is called samprajñāta-samādhi . In the asamprajñāta-samādhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogī is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogī is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful." *"Today's so*-called yoga practice, which involves various sense pleasures, is contradictory. A yogī indulging in sex and intoxication is a mockery. Even those yogīs who are attracted by the siddhis (perfections) in the process of yoga are not perfectly situated. If the yogīs are attracted by the by-products of yoga , then they cannot attain the stage of perfection, as is stated in this verse. Persons, therefore, indulging in the make-show practice of gymnastic feats or siddhis should know that the aim of yoga is lost in that way." *"The best practice of yoga in this age is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is not baffling. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is so happy in his occupation that he does not aspire after any other happiness. There are many impediments, especially in this age of hypocrisy, to practicing haṭha*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and jñāna-yoga , but there is no such problem in executing karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga ." *"As long as the material body exists, one has to meet the demands of the body, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. But a person who is in pure bhakti*-yoga , or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, does not arouse the senses while meeting the demands of the body. Rather, he accepts the bare necessities of life, making the best use of a bad bargain, and enjoys transcendental happiness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is callous toward incidental occurrences—such as accidents, disease, scarcity and even the death of a most dear relative—but he is always alert to execute his duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or bhakti-yoga . Accidents never deviate him from his duty. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , āgamāpāyino 'nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata (BG 2.14). He endures all such incidental occurrences because he knows that they come and go and do not affect his duties. In this way he achieves the highest perfection in yoga practice." Prabhupāda: If you have got any question in this statement, you can ask. Guest (1): Just, just how? Prabhupāda: How, that you have to learn, but this is the process. Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): That is the end product. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You learn. We have got this institution. You can come and learn how others are doing, others are learning. We have got class in the morning at seven. If you've got time, you can . . . you are welcome. We don't charge anything. You can come and join. There is no business. You can live with us. We don't charge anything. Or you can come and go, attend class. There is no charge. Kṛṣṇa gives us everything. Just like this house. This is two hundred thousand pounds. George Harrison has purchased it, and he has given us. Similarly, everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. None of our members go to office or factory. (chuckles) But we eat also, nicely. Guest(2): Yes, but if somebody didn't go to the factories, you wouldn't, would you? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Somebody has to go and do the work to make the food, keep the country running. Prabhupāda: No. We don't hate to work. That is not our business. If we get work, we work for Kṛṣṇa. The income comes to Kṛṣṇa. But if we don't get work, we are not bothered that, "There is no work. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? Where shall I go?" No, there is no such botheration. So all the members, I think, eighty, ninety percent, they do not go to work outside. *Haṁsadūta: Ninety*-nine percent. Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) But they get their food and shelter and everything, even they live with the wife, children. So we . . . Kṛṣṇa gives. Not only that, that we are simply sannyāsī , brahmacārī . There are gṛhastha , householder—husband, wife, children. They are also living. So that is not our problem. How to eat, how to sleep, that is not our problem. Our only problem is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . Guest (1): Yes. That was the question that was puzzling me. What is . . .? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. Not in a moment you can understand. Then you have to come to the schooling process. Otherwise, how you can learn in a moment, such a big subject matter? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: We are going to solve all the problems of life. Such a nice proposal. Don't you think it requires little patience to understand how to do it? Guest (1): It requires a little bravery. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): It requires bravery, too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got background Kṛṣṇa, so bravery, personally we haven't got to practice. Just like a child is in the protection of a able father, he's happy. "Whatever happens, father will see." He's happy. He's confident, "My father is there; my mother is there. Who can do any harm to me?" He's confident. Guest (1): There is so much that's wrong. *Prabhupāda: So similarly, if you depend on Kṛṣṇa, God, He'll take care of you. He says in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). Everything is there. And that you have to understand practically. (pause) You are all living in neighborhood, this village? No. You have come from distant place? Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: Oh. So whenever you find time, you can come, or, if you like, you can live with us. We have got ample place. Girls and ladies, they live separately. Boys and gentlemen, they live separately. Those who are married, we have got apartments for householders. And gradually, we are improving, I mean to say, arranging further facilities. First of all you try to attend our class in the morning and inquire all about your doubts. Have some clear idea what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Read our literatures as far as possible. You have taken some book, I see, I saw. (break) . . . foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and that is called prasādam , remnants of foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa cookbook. (aside) Show them. Devotee: (showing book) Hare Kṛṣṇa cookbook. Prabhupāda: Simply hear in our class and take this prasādam , your business will be done. You haven't got to do anything. Simply hear and take prasādam . Actually, it is not like that? Let him hear and take prasādam . And if you agree to this principle, we take charge of you. You haven't got any botheration, how you'll get prasādam . We shall arrange for you. Guest (3) (young British woman): Religion, meaning trying to serve God, is any more right than another? Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is the only business. Religion is different thing. Suppose . . . just like, I have already explained, that you are sleeping, and you have got a good engagement. And somebody's trying to awake you that, "You have to go there. Just get up. Get up." So this kind of business is not religion. Religion is a . . . what is a meant a kind of faith, a sentiment. That is different thing. It is the main business of human being. *Because we are part and parcel of . . . just like a boy, he's very rich man's son. Some way or other, he's out of his home, and he's suffering for want of food, want of shelter. And somebody is giving information that, "I know you are such*-and-such big man's son. Why you are loitering in the street? Why don't you go back to your home, back to your father?" So is it not the best business? So everyone is suffering. That I have already explained, how they are suffering. We are trying to save his suffering by dispatching him back to home, back to Godhead. This is our business. So it is not religion, it is the most important humanitarian work. What do you think? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are giving the right information how human being can be really happy. This is end. It is not religious sentiment. Religion means a kind of faith. Today I am Hindu; tomorrow I am Christian; *next day I am Muhammadan. What benefit I may get by changing so*-called faith? Unless I understand what is my constitutional position, why I am suffering, how to get out of it . . . that is real life. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that. It is not a sentimental religious faith. It is not like that. It is absolutely necessary for the human being. We are talking of human being because without being a human being, nobody will be able . . . the cats and dogs, they will not be able to understand the problem. In the human form of life you can make solution of all the problems of life. It is a science, how to make that solution. That we are teaching. We are not talking of religion. Religion . . . somebody will say, "I believe," "We believe . . ." Another will, "We believe." You believe; if it is not a fact, what is the use of such believing? We are dealing with facts, not the question of believing and not believing. Facts are facts. If you don't take facts, then you are missing the opportunity. (pause) (aside) You have got some visitors' book, to . . .? Haṁsadūta: Visitors' book, to sign? Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Somebody told me they have got. You have seen all our books? You have seen? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Guest (1): Some of the little . . . (pause) (end) Conversation -- July 14, 1973, London Indian man (1): But if an animal kills, he kills for food. Indian man (2): Another one, Guru Mahārāja, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over. Prabhupāda: Wherever. This is our advertisement. Indian man (2): Advertisement . . . Prabhupāda: Demonstration of world religion. Indian man (2): World religion. Prabhupāda: This is world religion. Indian man (2): But what inside . . . they say religion and moral education books, and all this . . . so actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. And our organization, not theirs, those . . . confusing the people. Prabhupāda: No, they are taking. Indian man (2): People are recognizing that this is very important. They say: "the world religion," and this is the tool. They say, well, the tool, "Here is the new tool for religion education in the secondary schools." So they are recognizing this fact. Prabhupāda: Without canvassing, people join. Indian man (2): This is the fact here, see. *Prabhupāda: And the world religion . . . the Ratha*-yātrā, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there? Indian man (1): No, I was not. Prabhupāda: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasādam . And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that . . . Devotee: Several pictures . . . *Prabhupāda: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha*-yātrā is Rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. Toh hum India jaata toh humko bolta, "aap toh Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya." (When I go to India, some say that, "You have destroyed the Hindu religion.") Indian man (1): Hindu dharm ko badha diya toh naash karna! (You have increased the Hindu religion and they say that you have destroyed it.) Prabhupāda: Woh humko sab bolta hai, "aap toh naash kar diya. Bhaktivedanta Swami Hindu dharm ko naash kar diya. Sab mleccha logo ko jaaneoo de deta hai." (They say: "You have destroyed everything. Bhaktivedanta Swami has destroyed Hindu religion. He gives the sacred thread to the mlecchas .") Indian man: Aaj ek article dekha tha . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly mei. Toh woh uska heading thaa (Today I saw an article in the . . . (indistinct) . . . weekly. The heading was) "Envy, our national character." Envy, lot of envy. If you are successful or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous. Prabhupāda: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you. Indian man (1): Woh jealous hai isliye kahenge ki "aapne yeh dharm prachaar kyun kiya aur Hindu dharm ka aapne sab khatam kar diya." Aapko kehte hain, hindu dharm aapne khatam kar diya. Toh woh jealous karte hain. (They are jealous so they will ask, "Why did you try to preach Hindu religion and spoil it completely as a result?" They tell you that you have finished Hindu religion. So they are jealous.) Jealousy and Envy. Prabhupāda: Kaun bolta hai? (Who says that?) Indian man: Jo bhi bolte hain. (Whoever it may be.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Indian man: Aaj kal dharm ka business bana rakha hai logo ne. Jidhar bhi jaao . . . (Nowadays people have made religion into business. Wherever one goes . . .) *Prabhupāda: Dharm toh ek hi hai. (There is only one religion.) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat*-praṇītam ( SB 6.3.19): "Religion is given by God." Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. Jo Bhagwan ki di hui hai woh religion hai. Bhagwan ka kya kehna hai, (There is no other religion. Only that which is given by God is religion. What does God say?) Sarva-dharmān parityajya , mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So this is religion. Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagati. Toh hum log toh asal religion de raha hoon, Bhagwan ka charan mei sharanagat hoye. Aur toh sab religion hai hi nahi. (To surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. We are giving the actual religion which is surrender at the lotus feet of the Lord. All other ideas are not religion.) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2): "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? *This is religion. That is first*-class religion, which teaches bhakti , yato bhaktir adhokṣaje , to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja . Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to " kṣa ," whatever experience we have got . . . or akṣa means eyes, senses. *So within sense perception, whatever is there . . . God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhokṣaja. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje . That is first*-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as kaitava . And Śrīdhara Svāmī gives his comments on this kaitava : chala-dharma . Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, mokṣa-vāñchāpi nirastam . That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called mokṣa . Dharma-artha-kāma-mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90). *Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, and then merge into the effulgence, mokṣa , liberation. So Śrīdhara Svāmī says up to mokṣa*-vāñchā is cheating, kaitava . Up to mokṣa-vāñchā. Mokṣa-vāñchāpy atra nirastam , kevala bhagavad-upāsanā . That is dharma . That is real dharma . Bhagavad-upāsanā . So we are teaching that religion, bhagavad-upāsanā , simply. We have no such ambition, to be elevated to the heavenly planet or to merge into the Brahman effulgence. No! We can live anywhere, even in the hell. It doesn't matter. But our worship of Kṛṣṇa shall continue. This is our religion. So we are not ambitious to go to heaven or higher planetary system or higher standard of life. We have no such ambition. We simply want Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, that's all. Never mind where it is. This is real dharma . Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje . So this boy has become your celā (disciple). He's very nice boy. What is his name? Dhruvānanda? Or his father's name. What is your name? Dhruvānanda: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Heh? Devotee: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. Yes. Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Indian man (2): Aur darshan karne aaye the. (We have come to see you . . .) Prabhupāda: Aayiye, baithiye. (Please come, have a seat.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kidhar se aaye hain aap? (Where have you come from?) You are coming from where? Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man (2): His . . . there's a place here, His. Prabhupāda: Oh. Aapka toh woh reading hai na? (Don't you have a reading here?) Indian man (3): Prajapati. Aap gaye the? Yeh India chale gaye the, abhi parso aaye laut ke, Tuesday ko. (Did you visit? He had gone to India and returned the day before yesterday, on Tuesday.) Prabhupāda: Accha. Sab ghar mei theek thaak hai na? (Alright. So, is everyone doing well in your home?) Indian man (2) : Woh abhi sab India mei hi hai. (All of them are in India.) Prabhupāda: India mei hain abhi sab? (Is everyone in India right now?) Indian man (2): Sab bacche wahin chale gaye the. (Everyone went there along with their children.) Indian man (3): Hum log wahan settle hone gaye the. (We went there to get settled.) Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) Indian man (2): Phir laut ke yahin aaye. Wahan nahi rehne diya logo ne. (But we came back because people did not allow us to stay there.) Prabhupāda: Rehne nahi diya? (Did not allow you to stay?) Indian man (2): Nahi diya rehne wahan. (They did not allow us to stay.) Kya baat hai? (What's the matter?) Badaa takleef hoga. (Lots of problems.) Prabhupāda: Kidhar? Rajasthan mein gya tha? (Where? Did you go to Rajasthan?) Indian man (2): Nahi, Rajasthan nahi. Dehradun mei gaye the. (No, not Rajasthan. We had gone to Dehradun.) Prabhupāda: Dehradun, toh takleef hua udhar? Kya baat hai? (Dehradun, so did you face any difficulty there? What is the matter?) Indian man (2): Udhar har cheez ka takleef hai. Khaane ko nahi milta hai . . . (indistinct) . . . mei zyada takleef hai. (There is difficulty in everything. You do not get to eat . . . (indistinct) . . . has more problems.) Everything. Prabhupāda: Baat kariye. (Discuss it.) Idhar se koi jaaye toh iske liye reheno ko . . . (If someone goes from here, it is very difficult . . .) Indian man (3): Woh rehta nahi hai. (He does not stay there.) Indian man (2): Everybody thinks you know . . . you are coming from abroad, you've got a lot of foreign things. They should have it. Everybody comes in that attitude. So if he's not . . . Prabhupāda: Ye log ko itna loot ta hai, yeh American log ko, hamara. Woh Mayapur mei, estimate hua hai, yeh 15 lakh rupiya kharcha hoga. Hum janta hai 10 lakh rupiya toh yeh log khaa gya. Itna thagata hai. (They rob these people so much, our American men. In Māyāpur, it has been estimated that 15 lakhs will be spent. I know they have used at least 10 lakhs out of that. They cheat so much.) Indian man (2): Kaun? (Who?) Prabhupāda: Contractor, yehi sab. (This contractor and everyone else.) Indian man (2): Aur material toh kharab lagaya hua lagta hai. Apka Vrindavan woh mandir bhi dekh ke aaye the hum. Ban raha thaa. Apke wahan jo devotees the unse bhi mil ke aaye. (And the material used seems to be of bad quality. We had also visited your temple in Vṛndāvana. Construction was going on. We also met the devotees present there.) Prabhupāda: Bahut thagaa, ab kya kahen? (They cheat so much, now what to say?) Indian man (2): Baki yeh India mei settle hone ka vichaar apke sang par aane ke baad hi hua hamara. Thoda spiritual line mei interest ho gya. Humne socha India mei . . . (Rest, we decided to return to India after coming in contact with you. We got a little interested in spirituality. We thought that in India . . .) Prabhupāda: Nahi, kahin bhi rahiye . . . (No, wherever you stay . . .) Indian man (2): Kuch humein aisa vaham ho gya tha ki Indian mei jaane se zyada spiritualism milega. (We actually had this misconception that if we go to India we will get more spiritualism.) And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, and I have come back. I think the life is more peaceful here than it is in India. Prabhupāda: Nahi theek hai. Ye hamara bhi opinion hai. India toh aise hi hai. (No, that's alright. I also have the same opinion. India is like that.) Indian man (3): It's more peaceful. Prabhupāda: . . . koi gentleman ka rehena ka jagah nahi hai . . . (Not a place for gentlemen to live.) Especially in Bengal, all they have turned to be rogues. Student or family . . . Indian man (3): Due to poverty, Guru Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Nahi, culture nasht kar diya. (No, they have destroyed the culture.) Indian man (3): Culture nasht. (Culture destroyed.) Prabhupāda: Poverty kya hai? Sabhi ko, kutta ko khaane ko milta hai. Ye koi . . . (What is poverty? Everyone, even dogs get something to eat. Is this . . .) poverty is not question. Indian man (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character. Prabhupāda: Yeh jo . . . jo kuch hi khaao, jo kuch karo, dharma se koi vichaar nahi hai. (All this . . . eat whatever you want, do whatever you want, have no concern about dharma .) They have no idea about Vedic . . . they are supposed to be preaching Vedānta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedānta . Indian man (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama Tirtha. But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy. Prabhupāda: Rama Tirtha also, he gave stress on oṁkāra . Is it not? Oṁkāra ? *Indian man (1): Hmm. I think he is more on this karma*-yoga . He believes that you should . . . Unhone Japan mei ek lecture diya thaa. (He had given a lecture in Japan.) 'Secret of success' or something like that. I think it is in Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa explains that . . . *Indian man (3): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Toh India mei kitna din thehra? (So how long did you stay in India?) Indian man (3): Main nau mahina raha. (I stayed for nine months.) First I went there . . . Prabhupāda: So you have got your own house there, Dehradun? Indian man (3): No, I tried to buy a house, and I paid a deposit and everything. I wanted to buy the house. Then I came to England to raise the money. I raised the money and I went back to India. And by the time I went back, there were four litigations going on the house. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. (laughter) Indian man (1): "I got this right on this house," "I got right . . ." *Indian man (3): There were four litigations going on that house, and, you know, they all wanted the possession of the empty, vacant part of that house. I mean it was part*-possession property. They all wanted possession of the vacant part. Prabhupāda: Then what happened? Indian man (3): So anyway, fortunately, the vendor also told me he doesn't want to sell. I said: "Thanks to God." So he gave me the money back . . . Prabhupāda: So you returned. That's nice. Indian man (3): . . . and I got out of it. I was lucky, really, you know. Prabhupāda: Aise hi Bombay mei hum logo ko fasaa diya. (We are trapped like this in Bombay.) Indian man (1): Kahan? Krishna land? Accha, kya hua udhar? (Where? Kṛṣṇa land? Okay, what happened there?) Indian man (3): So I was very lucky, really. Prabhupāda: Bhavant. (Litigation is going on.) Indian man (1): Blitz mein aapke bare mein aaya tha, hamne padha. (I read an article about you that appeared in the Blitz .) Prabhupāda: Humlog abhi tak possession nahi liye hain. (They have not given us possession.) Woh hamne pehle socha tha itna leniency de raha hai kya karan hai. Us samay man tha rupya paisa jo kuch hai possession unse le liya jaye. (This thought came to us right at the beginning, why is he behaving so leniently with us? It was because he wanted to take whatever money we have.) Indian man: Khali possession nahi aaya hai. Public peeche pad gaya, Jahan jaata hai card laga ke aa jata hai. (Only possession is not given until now. The public is also after him. Wherever he goes, he leaves his card behind.) Prabhupada: Kya sena hai, Shiv Sena aapko maloom hai vo hamara paksh main hai. (What sena is it? Shiv Sena. They are in our favor.) Indian man: Shiv Sena jinke paksh mein ho jayega voh jeetega bahut strong hai. (Whichever party is favored by Shiv Sena, that emerges victorious. It is very strong.) Prabhupada: Uska jo leader hai . . . Musalman log yahan bahut hain, kya baat hai. Musalman bhi hamara paksh mein hain. Kya baat hai, mandir barbad karna? (Their leader is . . . even the Muslims are in our favour. What's the matter, destroying the temple?) Indian man: Krishna aapke paksh mein hain. (Kṛṣṇa is on your side.) Prabhupāda: Sirf Congress opposition mein hai. (Only Congress is in opposition.) Indian man: Aapke saath sabse shaktishaali aadmi hai. (You have the strongest man on your side.) Prabhupāda: Hum to wohi keh rahe hain. Agar Gita mein kuch matlab hai to possession le lo aur Bhagwan ko betha do. (That is what I am saying. If there is any meaning in the *Gītā* then take possession and establish God there.) Indian man: Bhagvan ko nahi hata sakte. (They cannot remove the Lord.) Indian man: Jiska bhi paisa liya hai . . . (Whosoever's money he has taken . . .) Prabhupāda: Husband jhagda karte karte mar hi gaya ab wife jhagda kar rahi hai. (Husband died fighting, now his wife is continuing the fight.) (break) Prabhupāda: Otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said: "It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra ; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. Koi agar doctor ke paas jaata hai to poochta nahi ki kaun jaat? (If someone goes to a doctor, no one asks about the caste of the doctor.) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa , a śūdra . It doesn't matter. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . just like Śaṅkarācārya, Unka yehi condition tha. (He had only one condition.) First of all, you become sannyāsa . Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa . Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha , it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa." (referring to young boy) So he's Dhruvānanda? Indian man (1): Dhruvānanda. Guests: Dhruvānanda. Prabhupāda: Dhruvānanda. And what is your father's name? Dhruvānanda: Devadatta. Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: Devadatta. Indian man (3): Devadatta dāsa. Prabhupāda: And your mother's name? Dhruvānanda: Draupadī. Indian man (3): Draupadī. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That D*-D-D. All "D". Indian man: Aap hi ne to diya naam. (You have only named them.) Prabhupāda: Jaroorat aavishkar ki maa hai. Yeh accha jagah hai. (Need is the mother of invention. This is a very nice place.) Indian man: Mausam bhi itna kharab nahi hai. (Weather is also not so bad.) Prabhupāda: Subah mein morning walk hota hai. (I go for a morning walk.) Indian man: Kya yahan karyakram hai aapka? (What's your schedule here?) Prabhupāda: Dictaphone aur jo koi aaya usse baatchit karna. Ek ghanta class leta hoon saat baje. (Dictaphone and whoever comes, I preach. I take a one hour class at seven.) Indian man (3): That was a determination to learn. One has got the . . . he has written his own . . . his conclusion . . . Indian man (1): (indistinct) . . . what was Droṇācārya. He has taken his thumb for nothing actually. Indian man (3): No, that was his test. Indian man (1): In order to please Arjuna. Indian man (3): In order to please Arjuna. And that was his test. And that was his determination, that he rejected, and he learned the science, just, uh, faith. Prabhupāda: In material world, such competition is there. Indian man (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual world. That is material. So Droṇācārya gave Arjuna the benediction that "You shall be the greatest archer." So in order to keep his promise, he made that . . . Indian man (1): That wasn't, I think, what he did. (Paramahaṁsa or someone else enters) Paramahaṁsa: Śyāmasundara . . . Śyāmasundara is not in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is that? Devotee: Oh, this is just a little preparation, burfī and a little khīr . Indian man (3): Can't you bring in the plate like that? Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Devotee: I tried to find a plate. There's no . . . should I leave it here? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Indian man (3): So, so many stories he had memorized, and he started writing and asking many questions, Prabhupāda, so I'm not . . . but he has got the talent that if he'll get the right guidance and all this, he can easily translate *Mahābhārata*, many stories in the book shape, in different articles, which can very much help in our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): And for six weeks, seven weeks, his holiday, he can remain. Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll remain here. Indian man (3): Remain here. There is no problem. Then how he can develop it? So now you are quite free in next . . . alright? And he has memorized almost all your bhajana, everything. Prabhupāda: Very good. Indian man (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least he's on the right path. Prabhupāda: Everyone can be on the right path, provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path. (pause) Indian man (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the āśrama . Do you run sort of a school for them all? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them. Prabhupāda: Hmm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care. Indian man (1): How many children are here? Prabhupāda: (to Dhruvānanda) You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there. Indian man (1): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, why? There is . . . go and sleep. Indian man (1): Go and sleep? Prabhupāda: Yes, go and sleep. Take rest. Go on. Indian man (3): You know, Prabhupāda, when you came to my house that evening . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? *Indian man (3): You had hari*-kīrtana at our house and everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): We had a very funny incident after you left. After two or three days, my young daughter, you know . . . she's about two or two and a half at that time. She was sitting in one corner of the house, and she, you know those cups like this you have to have, to keep under the furniture legs, you know, cup like this, she had two of them, and she was doing like that. And, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Karatālas . Indian man (3): My daughter. I asked her, you know, "What are you doing?" She replied quietly, "I'm doing Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (3): So that, you know, really hit me hard, and I thought, "Look, one day's sat*-saṅga can have that effect on life, how much bigger effect it would have . . ." Prabhupāda: Intelligent, this is intelligent. Indian man (3): ". . . if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say: "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really strike me. Prabhupāda: No, you can attend here. You remain here. *Indian man (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat*-saṅga, first time in her life. Prabhupāda: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the . . . therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction. Indian man (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know. Prabhupāda: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children; they dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras . What is his name? Satsvarūpa: Bhakta Viśvareta. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Oh, he'll fall flat just like . . . and he will chant all these mantras : " Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale . . ." A small child at three years old. You see. Indian man (1): I mean, advancement has very . . . Indian man (3): Good association. Indian man (1): . . . effect, you know, on the mind. Prabhupāda: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh? Satsvarūpa: Just . . . it's not very difficult. It's just that we have . . . there is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his . . . so we're bringing children from other countries. Indian man (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls? Satsvarūpa: No, boys and girls. Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there? Satsvarūpa: Up to fifteen, yes. Indian man (3): And they are very well looked after there? Prabhupāda: Well, as far as possible. Indian man (3): As far as possible. Do you have any prospectus or anything about that school? Satsvarūpa: Yes, I have literature. Indian man (3): You have literature about that school? Prabhupāda: He's in charge. Indian man (3): You are in charge of that school? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): I see. Can I ask . . . Prabhupāda: But tell . . . he has started. Indian man (3): You have started that school? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda started it. (laughter) Indian man (3): Yes. Could you sometime tell me about that school? Satsvarūpa: Sure, later we can talk. Prabhupāda: There are good teachers. We are teaching Sanskrit and English especially. Indian man (3): They teach Sanskrit, English? Prabhupāda: That is all. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature, which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, ārati , worship of the Deity, and they play mṛdaṅga , they chant, they join Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. They are not meant for any technology. Indian man (3): No. Prabhupāda: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brāhmaṇa , not for become technologist. Technologist, there are many. Indian man (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only business of human life. Indian man (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of a spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. (break) . . . I believe in Aurobindo's āśrama also they have some sort of school. You know about Aurobindo's āśrama in Pondicherry? Indian man (3): There are so many. Prabhupāda: They have no idea. Indian man (1): I have not been there. I just heard about it. Prabhupāda: Actual spiritual life, unless you (break) Indian man (1): I tried to read this Aurobindo philosophy. It's too difficult for me . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): I found it too difficult for me to understand. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā ? Indian man (1): No, Aurobindo philosophy, I was reading . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, nobody can understand. Simply he can understand. Indian man (1): So difficult. Prabhupāda: It is meant for him. *Indian man (4): You read Guru Mahārāja's Bhagavad*-gītā , so simple. Even the child can understand who knows English. (break) Why the poor animals should be killed? They have got equal rights. But these rascals, they will not give equal rights. (break) . . . "National" means one who is born in that land. The animals are born in that land. Man is also born in that land. Trees are also born in that land. But they are not national. Only human beings national. Imperfect knowledge. Indian man (4): In Luton, before eighty years . . . when I was reading the history of Luton, on the page number 176 it was written that there was a great shortage of food before eighty years, and in some place people were cutting their own children and eating. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Indian man (4): This is written. If you like that book, I can send you. So the non*-vegetarians . . . Prabhupāda: Cutting their children? *Indian man (4): Cutting their own children, killing them and eat them. In some private places in Luton, where I am residing now. The history of Luton has been published by the County Borough of Luton. The non*-vegetarian food leaved them to such an extent that they couldn't stay without the meat, and they had to cut their own children. Now we are vegetarian. I have never tasted any meat. I don't know the taste of it. Still, we all exist on vegetables, all sorts of vegetables. Prabhupāda: The same thing happened in Kanpur in a hotel. One man was eating meat, and he found a little finger . . . Indian man (4): Finger of some . . . Indian man (2): That was in the Bombay, in the Vile Parle, in my place, where I was living. Prabhupāda: Oh! Indian man (4): Newspaper meat . . . mein dekha. Hamare Ville Parle mein bhi hua. (I saw meat . . . in Ville Parle also it happened.) Indian man (2): This gentleman went to the hotel and found a small finger. Prabhupāda: Small children cut up. And there was another case in Calcutta. The, one Chinaman, he was eating human being. And then . . . (break) . . . some Kancawala (rag picker) him called, and then captured and killed him. This was going on. Later on, when police inquiry was made, so many human . . . Indian man (2): Bones . . . Indian man (4): Skeletons. Prabhupāda: . . . bones, skeletons was found. In Africa there are still cannibals. Indian man (4): Oh, yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America as well. Prabhupāda: South America also? In India also. Indian man (1): That, these . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. In Assam side. Indian man (1): This Assam, some of the places. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They eat human beings. Nara*-buli, sacrifice human being, still there is a class of men. *Kṛṣṇa*-bhāminī: In South America, they take a human being, from the head down, they eat. Then the head, they shrink it until it becomes very small, and this is a great prize. *Indian man (2): Television mein bhi dikhaya tha. Who chote chote khopadi hain usko sukha dete hain aur number se laga dete hain. ek sau*-do sau. Yeh sab dikha dete hain, South-America mein kya? (It was shown on the television. There are small dried skulls, displayed chronologically 100 to 200. They show all this on the television. In South America, isn't it?) Prabhupāda: Just like you, you keep the tiger's face after killing. Indian man (2): Chota ho jata hai. Han, vaise hi. (It becomes small. Yes, just like that.) Indian man (5): Does this food make effect on a human nature? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Indian man (5): These non*-vegetarian foods and things like that. They definitely make effect on a human nature and behavior. *Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. George Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book: You Are What You Eat. So eating has got effect. Sāttvikāhāra or . . . unless one is in the sāttvika position, he cannot understand about self*-realization. It is not possible. Indian man (5): The human beings get dreams, and what's the lesson between the dreams and the actual life? Suppose I have a dream at night . . . Prabhupāda: Dreams mean that is also change of body. Indian man (5): It has nothing to do with the human . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, dream . . . just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehāntara . They are experiencing daily that there is dehāntara , but they do not have any education about this dehāntara . *Indian man (5): Viśvambhara para dṛśyamānaṁ nagarī tulyāṁ na janāntara*-gataṁ , paśyam ātmani māyayā bahir ivodbhuḥataṁ yathā nidrayā , yaḥ sākṣād kurute prabodha sameya svātman eva advayam , tasmai śrī guru-mūrtyenam etaṁ śrī taksna mūrtaye . *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that, "I'll have to change my this body; *then what kind of body I'm going to get next life," that next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such*-and-such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know, "Then what shall I do next? I have to work." So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body . . . just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think, "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. *So that is also described in the Bhagavad*-gītā : yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ . You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā . If you want to remain within this planetary system . . . yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām : "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats' and dogs' category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is . . . here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am . . ." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti . *Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking . . .? Even if you take the body of demigod like Brahmā, millions of years age . . ." That is stated in the Bhag . . . ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). *Indian man (5): Kṣīne puṇye martya*-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). *Prabhupāda: Kṣīne puṇye punaḥ martya*-lokaṁ viśanti . So why should we waste our time? Even I become Brahmā, again we have to come. Indian man (5): Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), kṣurasya dhara niśita duratyayā . Prabhupāda: Duratyayā mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te . Hai to disease bahut kathin. Lekin accha doctor hone se bimari thik ho jata hai. (Although the disease is very serious, if there is a good physician then it can be cured.) So that is there said: daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā . Very difficult. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te . So why don't you do that? *Indian man (5): Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva*-bhāvena bhārata (BG 18.62). *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done? *Indian man (5): Sva*-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ (BG 3.35). *Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva*-dharma . Sva-dharma , that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ . You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa . But he's not doing that. *Indian man (5): So he's not performing his sva*-dharma . Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him. *Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already . . . a brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa *-like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa . Janma-karma , uh, guṇa-karma . So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas . Now act like brāhmaṇa . Then your life is succ . . . *Varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ , svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān , viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya , as a vaiśya , as a śūdra , it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra , the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. *But they are not doing even sva*-dharma , bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma . "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma , including that, "You have to give up your sva-dharma . Don't . . . you cannot act as a brāhmaṇa , you cannot act as a kṣatriya , neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya . All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . this is the . . . (indistinct) Indian man (5): Sansarik ke liye upasana jaroori hai ki nahi? (For the worldly man is austerity necessary or not?) *Prabhupada: Upasana ka kya zaroorat hai. Sva*-dharm ka palan karo. Agar sva-dharm ka palan nahi hota to Bhagavan ke charan mein sharanagat karo. Sva-dharm ka palan koi nahi karta hai. Kaun Brahman ka dharm kaun palan karta hai, koi nahi. (What is the need for austerity? Follow your own prescribed duties. If you cannot follow your own prescribed duties then surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord. Nobody follows their prescribed duties. Who follows the Brahman dharma , nobody.) *Prabhupāda: Who is practicing this? Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa . If he's acting differently, he should be . . . (break) . . . utilized by the liberated person. Still, we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine . . . the doors will be . . . vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that, "You should give up these four principles: illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. *So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulation, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt . It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty*-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ . So this is the only remedy, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you'll find all our students, they have got these beads. We have got these bead. Either we shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa. That is also chanting. When you talk of Kṛṣṇa, that is also chanting. Kīrtana , kīrtana means kīrtayati , talking, speaking. *Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja. Parīkṣit Mahārāja: śrī*-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit (Brs. 1.2.265). The item is śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23): about Viṣṇu, to hear and chant. So simply by hearing about Viṣṇu, Parīkṣit Mahārāja became liberated. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣid abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane . Vaiyāsaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he became perfect kīrtane , by kīrtana . But he . . . he was . . . he did not chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , but he recited Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So that is also kīrtana . Talking of Kṛṣṇa, that is also kīrtana . Kīrtana does not always mean that you have to chan . . . you have to engage yourself always in glorifying the Lord. *Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa. He was a busy emperor of the world, but he engaged himself . . . sa vai puṁsām . . . er . . . kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayoḥ. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). He fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. This is first. If you fix up your mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then: sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). And he was talking only, describing and glorifying Vaikuṇṭha. God's another name is Vaikuṇṭha. In Madras they say Veṅkateśvara. *Vaikuṇṭha. Kuṇṭha means anxiety. So God has no anxiety, and God's devotees have no anxiety. Therefore they are vaikuṇṭha . Here in the material world everyone has got anxiety. Therefore it is kuṇṭha , the world of kuṇṭha , anxieties. Everyone—birds, beast, human being—there must be kuṇṭha . So God is Vaikuṇṭha. The vaikuṇṭha*-guṇānuvarṇane . This is also chanting, kīrtana , to describe about Vaikuṇṭha, Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Vaikuṇṭha person, Vaikuṇṭha devotees. *So this is the remedy of bhavauṣadhi . Bhava . Bhava means to take birth. Bhava . This is called bhava*-saṁsāra , this material world. Here bhava , you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-saṁsāra , repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). We living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situation, different position, and in this way wandering up and down, brahmāṇḍa bhramite , within this universe—sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet; sometimes as human being, sometimes as cat, dog; sometimes brāhmaṇa , sometimes śūdra , like that. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that the living entities are wandering like this. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite . Bhramite means wandering. Kona bhāgyavān jīva . One fortunate person, guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), by the grace of guru and by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one gets the seed of devotional service. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare āropaṇa (CC Madhya 19.152). And when you get a nice seed of plant, you sow it. *So that seed has to be sown within the heart. Mālī hañā sei bīja kare . . . śravaṇa*-kīrtana-jale karaye secana . So if we sow the seed within the heart and water it, as the watering requires . . . the watering is this śravaṇa-kīrtana . Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Then it grows. And in due course of time, it gives you the fruit, which is love of Godhead. Then your life is successful. This is the process. So we have to try to sow the seed of devotional service within our heart, and it has to be watered by hearing and chanting. Then gradually it will grow. This is the process. And this is open for everyone. There is no restriction. Indian man (1): And no price. *Prabhupāda: And no price also. Do sabko thoda*-thoda prasad. (Give everyone a little bit of prasad .) Indian man (6): This morning we didn't want to disturb you to have a darśana . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. You came in the morning? Indian man (6): I came in the morning. Prabhupāda: You came in the morning, yes. You are for many years here in . . .? Indian man (7): Yes, I have been in this country since about thirteen years. Prabhupāda: Thirteen years? Indian man (7): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, long here. You are for fourteen years? Indian man (8): In 1959. Yes, over fourteen years now. Indian man (6): He has established very well in the insurance business. Indian man (8): Which business? Indian man (7): Insurance. Indian man (6): He has got his own insurance companies. Indian man (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is that? Indian man (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says: "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means . . . (laughter) Indian man (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business. Indian man (8): When you say something "Good . . ." *Prabhupāda: No, good, God is all*-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good. Indian man (8): That is good. Indian man (7): Any business based on ethic is good. *Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sva-karmaṇā , by his own business . . . just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya . So sva-karmaṇā , by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ . *The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first class brāhmaṇas . So this is the verdict: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ ," according to the division of varṇa and āśrama . Four varṇas : brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . And four āśramas : brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa . This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān . . . (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama , at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate . . . but that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. *So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ . You may be a brāhmaṇa . You may be a kṣatriya . You may be a vaiśya . You may be a śūdra . You may be a brahmacārī . You may be a gṛhastha . You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa . It doesn't matter. These division will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama . . . varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example: He was a kṣatriya . He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya , let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful. Indian man (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Kṛṣṇa or not? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Kṛṣṇa . . . Indian man (8): Or somebody . . . Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna talked. Indian man (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know . . .? Prabhupāda: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop. Indian man (8): How does he know that he is pleasing God or he's not pleasing God? Prabhupāda: That, that . . . therefore you have to know how to talk with Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be possible. You cannot manufacture. And that is that you can talk with Kṛṣṇa by devotion. Indian man (8): Because apparently, you know, to a layman, this killing wasn't an act which will please Kṛṣṇa, and that, what Arjuna did, kill . . . kill so much . . . such a great army and everything, it will . . . normally, you know, a layman would have thought it won't please Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, if you cannot meet Kṛṣṇa, you can meet with Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad*-gītā . Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā . Kṛṣṇa says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha . "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Ikṣvāku." In this way, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam , there is a disciplic succession. *So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. If you talk with the Kṛṣṇa's representative, then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the . . . there is a man, departmental*-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Kṛṣṇa, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot . . . but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. It is not difficult. *The ācāryas are there. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27), Kṛṣṇa says. "All the ācāryas ," māṁ vijānīyān , "they are Myself." Nāvamanyeta karhicit : "Never disregard ācārya ." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāṁ nāvaman . . . na martya*-buddhyāsūyeta . "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa talked, he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme." *So if anyone says, "Kṛṣṇa is supreme," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). If somebody says that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then he's Kṛṣṇa's representative. But if somebody says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *Hmm. So Catur*-bhuja, where he has gone? Indian man (8): To bring some prasādam . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (someone enters) Indian man (8): Now, while Bhīṣmadeva was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, why he has taken the Kaurava side? Many people ask about . . . he knows Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: First of all give him. Yes. Indian man (8): . . . and still, he took the side of Kauravas in the fight, being a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. And he knew that Pāṇḍavas were right and Kauravas were not right. So many times this question has been very . . . Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be killed by the devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (8): By God. (background talking while prasādam is served) Prabhupāda: Bring more. Indian man (1): Okay. Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought . . . He expressed that, "Duryodhana . . ." he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious, because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with . . ." Because kṣatriya , this fighting is sporting. You see? That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles that, "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana. They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect . . . so when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed this moral principle. "So one is maintaining me, and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well." Indian man (8): Morally. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (8): That's the question we were discussing. Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it good? Indian man (8): Oh, very nice. We discussed this point in *Bhāgavatam* , and these young boys, they tried to very closely to the point, so that if I put the question before you . . . Prabhupāda: If somebody is maintaining you, and when he's in danger, you go to his enemy's side, that does not look nice. Yes. Otherwise, everyone was on Arjuna's side. Droṇācārya. But they considered like this that, "They have maintained us so long. And now there is fight, and we shall go to the enemy's side. What is this? What people will say? 'Traitors.' " Indian man (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away? Prabhupāda: Vidura was neutral. He left home, when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" he left home. And Kṛṣṇa also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight, because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be . . ." He divided . . . he, by tricks . . . his soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers that, "Why shall I take this one man? I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said: "No, I want Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa said: "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." *Mahābhārata* is very nice. "Greater India." *Mahābhārata* means "The History of Greater India." *Mahābhārata* . Mahā means "greater." Indian man (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and . . . *Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by . . . this is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman— strī—śūdra and dvija-bandhu . Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa , kṣatriya , vaiśya , but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu . And they are compared with śūdras . *So strī-śūdra*-dvija-bandhūnām : for these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Mahābhārata is Vedic literature, but for their understanding . . . they could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā . Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literature. Indian man (9): The Haryana government is constructing very gigantic, you know, temple over there at the birthplace of *Gītā* , at Kurukṣetra. I was there ten days before. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (9): I was there from ten days before at Kurukṣetra. Indian man (8): Kurukṣetra. Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra, yes. And they have decided now that about ten crores of rupees must be spent over there. Revatīnandana: The government of India is constructing a temple there? Is that what you said? Indian man (9): Haryana government is particularly concerned about that, you see. Prabhupāda: Where? In Haryana? Indian man (9): Kurukṣetra. Indian man (8): Actually, that is not by the government. That is by Nanda. No, not . . . the newspaper. That minister. Prabhupāda: You, you can give. (referring to prasādam ) Indian man (7): Nanda. He is, he is the chairman of that. I heard that about him. Prabhupāda: (to server) You give, yes. You, whoever you have not given, you give. She does not know. Indian man (8): To whom you have not given here? Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Give, give others, visitors. Indian man: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person? Prabhupāda: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender. Indian man: Thank you. Prabhupāda: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. *Just like in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This mūḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do that. Hmm? He will say, "Why Kṛṣṇa will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duṣkṛtinaḥ. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise, there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully . . . he'll not accept. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narā . . . *According to Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the ācāryas . All the ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre . . . in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā : their knowledge has been taken away by māyā . Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by māyā . Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ . Real thing they do not understand, nor . . . or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. *Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi , "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andha yoniṣu (BG 16.19). That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Dviṣataḥ krūrān . They're envious, krūra . "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," they have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa; still they will argue. Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (7): Because they're ignorant. Prabhupāda: No ignorant. Purposefully. Indian man (8): Purposeful, knowing that . . . knowingly that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it . . . Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least . . . the every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be . . .? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." *This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad*-gītā . . . everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise, where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma . God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya , one eternal, one living being, that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya , eternal. But He is nityo nityānām . He is the chief of the nityas . He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the *Vedas* , and they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are . . . they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that God is impersonal, and everyone can become God, or everyone is God. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi : "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions, they say that, "You can create your God," "You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me. He was supporting Ramakrishna Mission. He said: "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God." Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda ? (laughter) Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the Western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God," they have accepted it, just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these Westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it, without any argument. Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle? I simply present that "Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swāmījī, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing, not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said: They'll not take to it. So, they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. *Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha . . . (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa . So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya ." Faith. This is faith: when one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś . . . and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya : "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā , with this faith one has to begin. *Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu*-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (CC Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt . Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā : then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā tataḥ rucis : then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ : then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ : then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet . . . these are the different stages of sādhaka , of a devotee, how to make progress. *So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva . . . Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan that, "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress? Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ , athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. *So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta . . . "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). *Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principle of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning A*-B-C-D. What . . .?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith, but that is required. Revatīnandana: Faith begins from the association of devotees? Prabhupāda: And that, that faith becomes stronger by association. By association of the devotees, the faith becomes stronger. And the more your faith becomes stronger, you make progress. This is the way. Progress means the same faith becoming stronger, stronger, strongest. The same faith. The principle is the same: Kṛṣṇa. Then you know more about Kṛṣṇa. Then you become more faithful. Revatīnandana: Is this faithfulness, is it a product of the mode of goodness? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not . . . unless you take it seriously . . . then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness . . . that, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively. Revatīnandana: Sometimes the . . . Kṛṣṇa says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why . . . *Prabhupāda: No, I'm . . . that is generally, unless one becomes in goodness. But bhakti*-mārga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaitukī apratihatā. Ahaitukī. Apratihatā . Nothing can check bhakti-mārga . Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaitukī apratihatā . Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material . . . these goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions. Revatīnandana: Why is it, then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it? Prabhupāda: That is his choice. Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition? Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept. Indian man (10): So does faith develop from accepting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state. (pause) (aside) Get the lights on. Revatīnandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself. Whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from . . . whether to accept or reject Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee. Indian man: . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): He's just asking for your blessings . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (2): Your blessings, Swāmījī, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems. Indian man (11): Personal family problem. I am now . . . (indistinct Hindi) Indian man (2): I told him . . . Prabhupāda: Bas yeh chanting hai Hare Kṛṣṇa nāma ka. Bās. Bhavauṣadhi abhi to bataya tha. (Only this chanting is there, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Only medicine for the material disease. I told you just now.) bhavauṣadhi , medicine of all material diseases. This distressed condition of material world is a diseased condition, and this is the remedy. Sab milkar isme to aapka koi kharch nahi hai, nuksaan nahi hai. Sab family members baithkar Hare Krishna naam ka jaap kijiye. (There is no expenditure in this. All family members should sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Prabhupada: Disease hai, agar davai nahi lenge to kya hoga. To jiska deemag kharab hai usko uska kya kiya ja sakta hai. (The disease is there and if you don't take medicine then what will happen? If a person is insane what can be done of him?) Indian man (7): To eradicate the disease, it needs some planning. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (7): To eradicate disease, it needs counteraction. Prabhupāda: This is recited from the śāstra , bhavauṣadhi . This is the only disease, uh, only remedy. You have not got to spend anything or purchase anything. Neither is there loss. Why not try for some time. Indian man (7): Remedy. Devotee: Because it's free, that's why they're hesitating. (laughter) Indian man (1): That's nice. Indian man (11): Chaliye. (Let's go.) Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you. Whenever few times . . . Indian man (7): It's a pleasure, sir, to have your darśana . Prabhupāda: Thank you. *Indian man (8): You can come in the morning. We have got . . . Guru Mahārāja speaks in the morning, Bhagavad*-gītā classes. Prabhupāda: Morning we have lecture. Indian man (7): Morning I can chant Kṛṣṇa's name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to . . .? Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulation, and other things. But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Droṇācārya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly, you can practice—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man (3): Swāmījī, tomorrow is Guru*-pūrṇimā , and a friend of mine, his father or his mother died, you see, on Ekādaśī day. Husband and wife both, they had been fasting Ekādaśī , doing satya-nārāyaṇa-kathā . So now father, he is very lonely, and he said: "I have got no guru ." Then I told about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning, to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation? Prabhupāda: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand . . . *Indian man (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Guru*-pūrṇimā . That's why I thought if tomorrow . . . Indian man (8): If he deserves it. Prabhupāda: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see. Indian man (3): Tomorrow morning? Ācchā . The beads, Swāmījī. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office? Prabhupāda: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market. *Haṁsadūta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupāda just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat*-eating—meat, fish, eggs—and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. So anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as . . . Indian guest: As effective as it would be. Haṁsadūta: Exactly. Indian man (4): So what you're saying is that there's no harm by his . . . *Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . that will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra pāpaś catur*-vidhā . According to śāstra , these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult. Indian man (3): Swāmījī? Tea and coffee's also included? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pāna . . . chāi , pāna . Pāna , pāna means intoxication. Dhūmra*-pāna . *Indian man (7): Dhūmra*-pāna . Indian man (2): And what about supāri , Swāmījī? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also ingredient of pāna . Pāna , it is called pāna . Indian man (2): I offered Vaikuṇṭhajī supāri . You see, he won't accept it. So I thought, well, it only helps digestion, because it only brings the saliva in the mouth. Prabhupāda: Well, wine is also very digestive. (laughter) An appetizer also. All Europeans, they take first of all wine to eat voraciously. I see in the airplane. And after taking wine, they eat so much. Indian man (8): And then they go for dancing to digest it. *Prabhupāda: Simple life. Simple life, innocent life . . . because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivṛtta*-tarṣair . . . (SB 10.1.4). There is another verse quoted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). *Bhagavad*-bhajana , those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead . . . pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya , on the other side of this material world, for him . . . viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca , hā hanta ha hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicide. So material things, viṣaya , simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense, this is material activity. Indian man (8): Defense? *Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means . . . just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll find it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28): "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities," yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām , "and always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28): "He becomes freed from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed up in My service." *So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ anta*-gataṁ pāpam . Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana . Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex . . . if you can . . . if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya , little tapasya . Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya , austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student that, "You have to follow this." And that's all. Indian man (4): . . . kon shomoy apni dekha deben, kalke na kon shomoy? (. . . at what time can I meet you tomorrow? . . .) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Kal othoba . . . (Tomorrow or . . .) Indian man (4): Kal shokale ami ashbo. (I will come tomorrow morning.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Indian man (1): In the evening tomorrow, Swāmījī, have you got any special program or . . . Prabhupāda: No, anyone can come after four. Indian man (1): Four to . . .? Prabhupāda: Four to six. Revatīnandana: I think tomorrow evening there'll be special . . . some special guests coming. Tomorrow evening. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Revatīnandana: Not tomorrow . . . Prabhupāda: No, you are also welcome. You are also welcome. Indian man (5): Some people they work, you see, seven days of the week. Indian man (8): Sunday night? Indian man (5): No, Sunday is tomorrow. So they wanted to come. Revatīnandana: Yeah, except tomorrow evening, I . . . Śyāmasundara's arranging a very special conference. And I don't think . . . *Prabhupāda: That's all right. They also come and hear what is . . . it is open to everyone. Our special conference: Bhagavad*-bhakti . Guests: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (5): Otherwise, you know, we are disallowed . . . Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (1): . . . without your permission, then. Prabhupāda: They will also hear. Yes. Savere ayiyega. (Come in the morning.) Jaya. Indian man (5): Yes . . . savere aunga. (. . . I will come in the morning.) Indian man (4): . . . shokale ashte pari? Kon shomoy . . . (. . . can I come in the morning? At what time . . .) Prabhupāda: Joto shokale ashte paren. (As early as you can.) Indian man (4): Accha . . . (indistinct) . . . ami ghum theke uthte pari na. (Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . I am unable to get up early.) Prabhupāda: Paro na? (Are you unable to get up?) (aside) Raho idhar . . . brahmachari . . . (Stay here . . . celibate monk . . .) Prabhupāda: Aap kahan ka rehne wala hai? (Where are you from?) Punjab? Indian man (5): I'm a Hindu. Prabhupāda: You are Hindu, but which province? Indian man (5): I come from . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . and my father's from . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, Guyana. That South America. Indian man (5): No. My father's from India. My mother's from India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (5): No, they come from Jalandhar. Prabhupāda: Jalandhar, Punjab. Indian man (5): Yes. And . . . Prabhupāda: What you are doing here? Indian man (5): Well I have come . . . I'm working at the moment, yeah. I'm working at the moment. Prabhupāda: Working? Indian man (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: What work? Indian man (5): Well I'm on the . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . hotel. In the kitchen working, all the washing up, and the supervising and things. You know, my father's seen you. He's come and seen you a bit. *Prabhupāda: Ma*-phal? Indian man (5): My father. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man (5): He's come around here. I think he came in London, to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple in London. He came there . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . all . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . this thing has really gone into my mind. And I don't drink, no meat, nothing else. Prabhupāda: You don't eat meat? Indian man (5): Nothing. No drink, no . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, very good boy. Indian man (5): Horrible. (break) Prabhupāda: Ready to sacrifice your hair? Indian man (5): Well, I did before. Revatīnandana: Not yet. (laughter) Indian man (1): Is it compulsory to have a full consciousness that he must shave his head? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is formality. But he must be prepared to observe formality also. But if it is very much objectionable, sometimes we excuse. Indian man (7): Now I have finished my one year, one year and one week, or something, for my practice, you know. So I'll be taking before and next year. Still, I . . . (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, you can come any time. Indian man (7): Now it's 360 . . . 73 or 72 days now, so I'm counting the days. Prabhupāda: Unko mila prasad. Prasad khilaya? Khaya? (They got prasad . You served prasad ? Did you eat?) Prabhupāda: Dekhiye jo bimari hoti hai aur agni jo hota hai usko bilkul na karna chahiye aur koi agar samjhe thoda sa aag hai chalo thik hai, jal jayega voh aadat bhi badh jayega. Isi tarah bimar bhi thoda sa he, aise nahi pura usko khatam karo. Isi prakar . . . (See, if there is a fire and there is an illness, they should be immediately driven away. If someone ignores it thinking that the fire is very small then everything will get burned down. Similarly, instead of taking the disease very lightly, one must uproot it completely. In the same way . . .) debts. He thinks, "Oh, this is small debt." No, sometimes it becomes, compound interest, big amount. So therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these three things must be finished by the root: agni and vyādhi and ṛṇa . We should not neglect. Indian man (7): What is that? Agni . . .? Prabhupāda: Agni , vyādhi , disease, and ṛṇa , debts. You should not neglect it. You should finish it. Indian man (8): Before it's increased more. I remember it's only few weeks . . . Revatīnandana: Fire? Fire, disease and debts. Prabhupāda: Debts. One should not neglect. Indian man (6): You don't drink tea, do you? No tea? Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (8): No tea, coffee, no . . . Indian man (7): I know. I stopped coffee because I don't have it often in my office staff. But tea, still, I'm thinking to leave the tea, you know. I see that Prabhupāda will ask me to give up everything, you know. (laughs) Revatīnandana: You'll have to replace it with something higher. When you want a cup of tea, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's how I stopped smoking cigarettes. Indian man (7): Oh, my God. You can . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . us . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . stop smoking. Prabhupāda: No, no. Nahi who sab thik ho jayega. (No, everything will be fine.) "Where there is a will, there is a way." Koi mushkil nahi hai. (It is not difficult.) Indian man (7): So when I shall take the whole promise? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man (7): When I shall take the whole, the whole of what everything is to do this . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, at any time, when you are ready. Indian man (8): (indistinct Hindi) . . . any time. Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Subashya shigram . . . mrtyu kala haranam . Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko milne ke liye rishi muni log kitna tapasya kiye hazaaron varsh tapasya. (To meet God, the saints and mendicants—did penance for thousands of years.) (break) . . . polluted, and we have to deal with them. Indian man (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee . . . "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh, no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, when I was gṛhastha , so they offered tea, I said: "I don't take tea." Then they said: "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water, that sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality. Indian man (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know. Indian man (8): Hospitality means prasādam . Prabhupāda: Hospitality means first of all, he should ask, "What can I offer you?" This is hospitality. Indian man (8): Naturally, you know . . . Prabhupāda: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that, "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter) Indian man (8): . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. Hospitality is first. According to our Indian system, Aap kya lenge? (What will you have?) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water," or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality. Indian man (9): (indistinct Hindi) . . . somebody comes to my place . . . Prabhupāda: So you should ask, "What can I offer you?" Indian man (9): . . . say, "A cup of tea will do." Then? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man (9): We cannot give him cup of tea. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot give that, "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter) Indian man (8): No tea now. Why do you keep that tea in the house? Prabhupāda: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandeṣa or some sweetmeat or . . . what is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him . . . there are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered? Is it very nice preparation? Indian man (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want . . . Prabhupāda: I want things are nice, but . . . Indian man (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea. *Prabhupāda: They might have gone to hell, but I am not . . . (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat*-prasāda . We are offering our bhagavat-prasādam . Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all. Indian man (9): No, what I have been asked . . . I take the full consciousness, but wife takes half, and children, they didn't take it, so they want a cup of coffee. One boy wants cup of coffee, the girl wants a cup of tea and . . . Prabhupāda: Well, the . . . Indian man (9): But the . . . and when the . . . that is the . . . this is the problem . . . Prabhupāda: This happened in my life . . . this happened in my life. Revatīnandana: Listen. Listen. Listen. Prabhupāda: My wife was taking tea. So I asked her not to take tea, not to take tea. But she didn't care, husband. Then I gave her final, that "Either you have to give up your tea or your husband." (laughter) So she agreed to give up husband, not tea. (laughter) So I left my home. That's all. (laughter) Indian man (8): Due to tea! Indian man (9): There won't be any place for me to go now. Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is . . . habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas : brahmacārī , gṛhastha , vānaprastha , sannyāsa . Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha . His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī . Indian man (1): He is lucky. Prabhupāda: Yes, lucky. Indian man (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there. Prabhupāda: He has good wife, good children, all favorable for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He does not . . . Indian man (8): This is Prabhupāda's mercy really. Indian man (1): No, but, that I'm saying . . . Indian man (8): We have been living fourteen years in this country. They were brought up here, and they never touched tea. They were brought up here, school education and all that, fourteen years . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in England, in London. Indian man (8): And I must say they are advancing more than me, really. I am still the same stage; by Prabhupāda's grace, they are advancing more—get up early in the morning, four o'clock, take bath . . . Prabhupāda: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife . . . his wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhur na gṛham ucyate . Just like we are also living within a room, gṛha . But we are sannyāsī . What is the difference between gṛhastha and sannyāsī ? He lives with his wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī means the wife is gṛha . So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyāsī . No. Why? There is no necessity. Gṛhe vā vanete thāko . Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha , the life must be dedicated for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is required. And for Kṛṣṇa's sake if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job? If Kṛṣṇa wants that "You give up this habit," . . . just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . if you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa . . . now, Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So Kṛṣṇa wants that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam , "Vegetable, milk, rice, grains, you can give Me." So you have to please Kṛṣṇa. You live on this, what Kṛṣṇa says, and take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam . That's all. (people entering room) Aiye. Sab aiye idhar aiiye . . . hamara makaan bahut bada hai sabko . . . (Come here all of you . . . our house is very big . . .) *"My dear boy, what best learning you have learned?" He was child, boy. So he said, tat sādhu manye 'sura*-varya dehināṁ sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5): "My dear father . . ." He did not address father as "Father"; *he addressed him as asura*-varya , "the best of the asuras ." Indian man (8): "Best of the asuras ." *Prabhupāda: Yes, "best of the asuras ." Asura*-varya. Varya means the best. And asura . . . because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya . . ." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām : "Anyone who has accepted this material body . . ." Dehinām , he has said. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām : "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animal, birds, beast. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām . Why? Asad-grahāt . "Because they have accepted this material body." *Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvātma*-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam , hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). "They should not be satisfied with these society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on, and we are after that. But there . . . there is no possibility. Unless you take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, harim āśrayeta , there is no possibility. The whole world is trying to adjust things of the society, friendship, love and material atmosphere. That cannot be. That is not possible. Only by taking shelter . . . *Therefore Kṛṣṇa says. Not whimsically. That is the only remedy: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the only remedy. There is no other remedy. But they'll not take. What can be done? This is the only remedy: harim āśrayeta . One should take shelter of Hari, Kṛṣṇa. Then he'll be happy. Otherwise it is not possible. Indian man (6): Then we'll come in morning? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ramanath. Tumhara naam kya hai. (What is your name?) Indian man: (indistinct Hindi) . . . (end) Conversation -- July 15, 1973, London (Conversation With Three College Students) Student (1): Is that what you're trying to do in your movement? Prabhupāda: (break) movement . . . I am talking of yoga system. What is my movement, that we shall discuss later on. First of all the question was the yoga . You asked me that. yoga means to control the mind and the senses. So if one is not able to control the mind and senses, he does not know what is the meaning of yoga . Student (1): Right. *Prabhupāda: That . . . you read Bhagavad*-gītā ? *(aside) Bring Bhagavad*-gītā . Revatīnandana: Do you understand the necessity of controlling the mind and the senses? Can you see why it is necessary? Why would you say it's . . . Student (1): Yes. Sort of. Not to the full extent. I can't see how it's necessary to a full extent, because I can't control the mind and the senses. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Call Pradyumna. Student (1): Because I can't completely control my mind and senses. Revatīnandana: The thing that is covered when we are always acting on the sensual platform, agitated in the mind, is we do not experience our self, our eternal self, which doesn't change. We become locked on the temporary platform. Student (1): Yeah. In normal life, you mean? Most people, you're talking about. *Revatīnandana: Yes. Because all of our attention is lodged in the mind and the senses, and we are lost to ourselves. So any kind of self*-realization process means that you have to control the mind and senses or you cannot be self-situated. Beyond being situated in the self, there may be more, but that's the first point. That's the basic point of yoga . Student (2): Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into it? Where does Kṛṣṇa fit into the yoga ? Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Revatīnandana: He wants to know . . . if being self*-situated is one thing, then where does Kṛṣṇa enter into the system? That's his question. *Prabhupāda: Self*-situated . . . when you are self-situated . . . just like in the water you are taking bath in a pool. Something has fallen on the water. Suppose your key has fallen. Now you'll have to find out. You are just trying to settle up the water and see where is the key. So when your mind and senses are controlled, then you can talk of Kṛṣṇa. Before that you cannot talk. Because Kṛṣṇa is missing, with uncontrolled mind, senses, you cannot capture Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. The same example: When the water is agitated, you cannot see where your things have fallen. You have to wait to make the water calm and quiet. Then you'll see, "Here is my key." Student (2): What are the ways in which . . . Prabhupāda: You come here. Take this. Student (2): How can we get to Kṛṣṇa? How do you get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Sixth Chapter, the practice of yoga . The process. Pradyumna: Should I read from the beginning? Prabhupāda: Hmm. You read. Read. Pradyumna: "To practice yoga . . ." "To practice yoga , one should go to a secluded place . . ." Prabhupāda: Now, first of all you have to find out secluded place. yoga practice is not possible in a hotel or in a public place. It is not possible. You have to find out a secluded place. First condition. Then? Pradyumna: ". . . and should lay kuśa grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth." Prabhupāda: Then there is process of making the āsana , deerskin, kuśāsana , then cloth. You have to sit down in that āsana. Āsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇ . . . then? Pradyumna: "The seat should neither be too high nor too low." Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there. "It should not be too high nor too low." Then? Pradyumna: "And should be situated in a sacred place." Prabhupāda: A sacred place. Just like formerly, those who were practicing yoga , they were going to Gaṅgotri, where the Ganges is coming down, in the Himalaya, in the Haridwar, in a secluded, sacred place. These are the condition, first condition. So where you are getting these condition fulfilled? You cannot practice yoga in a hotel or in a club. That is not possible. Student (2): How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? Pradyumna: How do you decide whether a place is sacred or not? How do you tell? Revatīnandana: What is a sacred place? Prabhupāda: Sacred place, generally we take as a lonely place, solitary place. If it is not solitary, it is not sacred. Student (2): Is sacred the same as solitary? Prabhupāda: Yes. They used to sit down in the Himalaya where the Ganges is coming. That is a sacred place. If you go simply on the Ganges side on the bank of the Ganges, Yamunā, you will find immediately purified your mind. Immediately. Or on a seaside where there is nobody disturbing. These are sacred places. Then? Pradyumna: "The yogī should then sit on it very firmly." Prabhupāda: Then yogī has to sit down very firmly like this. Yes, straight, perpendicularly. Then? Pradyumna: "And should practice yoga by controlling the mind and the senses." Prabhupāda: Then he has to practice meditation for controlling the mind and the senses. First of all āsana , place, sacred place; now, āsana , secluded place, alone. That is stated. These are the yogic process.(break) Student (3): What do you mean by control your mind, I mean, control your senses? If your senses are controlled, can you see anything you wish or hear anything you wish? Or taste anything you wish? Prabhupāda: (aside) Just explain what is control, mind and senses. Revatīnandana: Well, controlling, being in control of your mind and senses, means that whatever destination you fix up with your intelligence—you understand, you want a particular result—then if you are in control of your mind and senses, then it means that it won't disturb you. Prabhupāda: First of all . . . first of all thing is the, what is the aim of practicing yoga ? So to achieve that end, that purpose, you have to control the mind, because mind is very flickering, going here, there, there, there. So first of all you must know what is the purpose of practicing yoga , why you should practice yoga . So in order to achieve that goal, you have to concentrate your mind, and therefore you have to control the mind going here and there. That is control. Mind business is acceptance and rejecting. This is mind's business. Immediately I accept, "It is very good"; again, next moment, "No, no, it is not good. Reject it." This is called flickering mind. So by yoga practice you have to make your mind in such a way that whatever you decide, that is correct, not the state of rejecting and accepting. So first of all, you have to know why you are practicing yoga . As you asked the question, "Why control of mind?" then the next question will be, "Why you are practicing? What is your aim?" You are going to practice yoga . Why? What is the aim? Student (2): Is it to realize God? Prabhupāda: That's nice. Therefore you must have to concentrate upon God; therefore you have to control your mind. You have to withdraw your mind from any other engagement, only concentrate on God. Then the . . . what is God? Student (2): That's what I'm trying to find out. Prabhupāda: No, if you want to concentrate, find out God . . . do you mean to say simply by practicing, you'll find out? You must know what is God. Then suppose you are purchasing some ticket. You do not where to go. You do not know. You say: "I'll have to find out where to go." What is this? Then why you are purchasing ticket? Student (2): Yeah. How can you focus your mind on God before you know what He is? Revatīnandana: That's right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: He said: "How can you focus your mind on God before you know what God is? Prabhupāda: Yes. So then what is God? Student (1): That's what I came to ask you. Prabhupāda: Then? Revatīnandana: He wants to know. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And that is Kṛṣṇa. So if you concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is yoga . That is first*-class yoga . That is stated. You . . . list the last . . . *He is first*-class yogī who is always concentrating his mind on Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Why Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Only on Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . yogīnām api sarveśām (BG 6.47). (aside) You read the translation. Pradyumna: "Of all yogīs , he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." Prabhupāda: That's it. This is the highest yoga . So to concentrate your mind on Kṛṣṇa, that is highest perfection of yoga . Student (1): Yeah, but I want to know why Kṛṣṇa in particular. Prabhupāda: Then if there is question of "Why?" then you do not come to us. You can ask somebody else. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the yogīs , all the saintly person, therefore . . . there is no question of "Why?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the decision of the Vedic literature. All the ācāryas . We have to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ (CC Madhya 17.186), big personalities. Now in India, the big personalities in the modern age, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya, all of them accept kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam . Formerly, five thousand years ago, Vyāsadeva; before that, Nārada. Everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no question about Kṛṣṇa's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Why? Because these people accept, the śāstra says, the *Vedas* says; therefore He is the Supreme Personality. Student (1): I don't follow at all . . . Prabhupāda: Then you'll never be able to follow. Revatīnandana: Now, just see, if the revealed scriptures . . . Prabhupāda: No, no revealed scripture . . . just like why do you accept the Queen as the supreme? Why? Students: We don't. Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane. Student (1): . Yeah, but why . . . I mean, there's a thousand . . . Prabhupāda: You do. You say, "I do not," but you do so. You are . . . by law you are obliged to do so. If you say publicly, then you will be something else. Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the Queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the Queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything . . . "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done? Student (3): But we can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, that . . . that is . . . you have to see through the śāstra, śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra , authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly see. You cannot say that. Student (1): Do you believe that there are other ways . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of belief. Now let us quest . . . we believe that, "If I see, that is all right." But what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see beyond this wall. Does it mean there is nothing? So what is the value of your seeing? First of all you consider. You are questioning that, "I cannot see," but what is the value of your seeing? Student (3): My seeing the electric lamp tells me that it is . . . Prabhupāda: Now, now, now, but you are seeing the electric lamp, but why do you believe so much on your seeing power? You cannot see so many things, even though you have got the eyes. Student (3): I have no reason not to believe. Prabhupāda: No, that is not good. If you say: "I cannot see beyond this wall. There is nothing," nobody will take your words. Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall . . . Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that. Student (2): We're not denying that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know . . . Prabhupāda: You have to know by the process, by the process. You have to know by the process. Just like can you see your father? Student (2): Can I see him? Prabhupāda: Eh. You cannot see? You can see? Student (2): Well, I can see him. Prabhupāda: So how you can see? Who is your father, how you can see? Student (2): Who is he? Who is my father? Prabhupāda: Why? Why you accept somebody as your father? Why? Student (2): Only because my mother told me. Prabhupāda: Huh, that's right. (laughter) But you do not see. You do not see. So you have to believe the authority. Then you can see. Student (2): Yeah. Yeah, but . . . Prabhupāda: Your father existed before your birth, so you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says: "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy. Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father. Revatīnandana: So to come to your point, as he was pointing out, in the past, back hundreds of years, thousands of years, all the great authorities of spiritual knowledge and yoga have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Personality of Godhead. And these ancient *Vedas* , they confirm it clearly in many, many places. Now, if someone comes and he says something else than Kṛṣṇa is God—"I am God" or "This light is God . . ." Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse *Revatīnandana: . . . then its different, you see. That's why not Guru Maharaj*-ji. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam (BG 10.12), in the Tenth Chapter. Pradyumna: 10.10? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān . Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, go on. Pradyumna: *"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages, such as Nārada, Asita, Devala . . ." Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority. Pradyumna: ". . . and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14)? Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye . . . Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava. Pradyumna: . . . yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ : "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately he understands Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14): "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And "You are accepted by Devala, Nārada, Vyāsa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the ācāryas have accepted. Then I'll follow: mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). I'll have to follow great personalities." The same reason: mother says this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished. Why should you waste your time? Student (1): Say we say that Kṛṣṇa is God. Right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): If we . . . let's just suppose we say Kṛṣṇa is God. Then do you believe that there are other ways, apart from the way that you're going, to get to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: yoga means to understand Kṛṣṇa. Student (1): Yeah, right, but I mean practically . . . Prabhupāda: So when you understand Kṛṣṇa, then there is no need of yoga . Student (1): I don't think you could ever understand God. I don't see how you could ever understand God. Prabhupāda: No, if you go to the place . . . just like if you go to the airport, then you can understand which airship is starting from which gate, which gate. There are so many things you can see. But if you do not approach the airport, simply in other place, how you can study airport? First of all come to Kṛṣṇa, then try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And if you understand Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated. First of all we have to know that, "Here is *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*." Then you try to understand. But if you do not approach there, where is your question of understanding Him? Student (2): Yeah, but somebody else will say: "You come to us, and I'll do this to you, and you'll see God." Prabhupāda: We do . . . we are not concerned with "some." We are concerned with the authorities, that's all. Somebody says, "He is not your father." We are not concerned. My mother says: "He is father." That's all. Student (2): Yeah, but if my mother tells me, I only believe it . . . Prabhupāda: Then you are unfortunate. If your mother tells you lies, then you are unfortunate. *Student (2): Yeah, but I only believe her because I give her the authority. You make Bhagavad*-gītā your authority. Prabhupāda: But generally we have to believe. Generally we have to believe mother; there is no other way. To understand the father, generally you have to accept the statement of mother. If your mother tells you lies, that is misfortune. Student (1): Yeah, but you're not giving us any sort of answers. You're just sort of saying, "Believe in us. Assume that you believe in us." So why don't you give us an answer? Prabhupāda: No, believe . . . you have to believe. You have to believe. Otherwise you cannot make progress. You have to believe. Student (1): Yeah, but say you're in a position of not particularly believing in anybody. I mean, there's loads of organizations going around, "Believe in us, believe in us." Prabhupāda: No, if you don't believe, that is a different thing *Revatīnandana: No, what he's saying is this. Now he's saying also, this Guru Maharaj*-ji, he says: "You believe in me, and I'll show you everything." Now he's saying that . . . what he's accusing is . . . Prabhupāda: But who cares for the Guru Mahārāja? Revatīnandana: He cares. Prabhupāda: Here is Nārada, Devala, Vyāsa, authority. Student (3): No, we're not saying we do, but some people do, anyway. Student (1): Yeah, they'll argue just as convincingly as you. Prabhupāda: But everyone can say: "I am God." Then how you'll understand? If Guru Mahārāja says, I can say also. He can say. Then go on studying who is God. The same question: Everyone says: "I am your father," "I am your father," "I am your father," but whom you have to believe? You have to believe only mother. Student (3): Okay, well who's the mother in this case? Revatīnandana: The śāstra , revealed scriptures. They give information about the father. *Prabhupāda: Śāstra*-cakṣuṣā. Student (1): What about the Bible? That'll tell me something else altogether. Revatīnandana: Yes. No, it won't. It will tell you almost identical information. If you go in the Bible, it will say: "God is your father." "Father" means he is sufficient to beget a son. Now, if God is a void, how can a son come out from a void? Prabhupāda: We have no such experience. *Revatīnandana: But if God is a person, then He can have son. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the father of every living being." Therefore Bible and Bhagavad*-gītā , they are saying the same thing, but not that "God is void or light." Not saying that. Somebody else is saying that. Therefore we are very, very skeptical now. He has not got the authority of these scriptures. If he says, "Your father is a void," that is nonsense. Prabhupāda: And where is our experience—from void a son is born? Where is your experience? Student (3): What do you mean? Prabhupāda: Suppose you are a person. You have dropped from the void? Student (3): I'm not arguing for Divine Light or anything. I'm just trying to . . . Revatīnandana: No, just take it philosophically. Can a person come from a void? Void means zero. But a person is not zero. He has so many personal qualities. Student (3): I mean, if you stick to strict logic, you can't . . . no, right. But I mean this isn't logical, is it? Revatīnandana: Sometimes by logic you can find out what is false. What is truth, that we get from authority. Student (1): You say it is logic because, say, everything in that book fits in with everything else, maybe. So it's a total form of logic in itself. Revatīnandana: Yes. Student: Your logic starts from the assumption that the book is correct. Prabhupāda: Then why you are arguing? That is logic. Why you are arguing? Why don't you accept what I say? Why you are arguing? That is logic. Student (3): Because so many people say different things, which conflict. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are taking the shelter of logic. You are taking the shelter. Student (1): Logic . . . logic is arguing, isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, logic means argument, reasoning. Our logic is because Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all great person, authorities, we accept. Our logic is simple. Student (1): But Christians might say the same thing. They might say: "Look at the Bible. This is our logic." Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. They accept God; we accept God. The only difference is they do not know who is God, but we know who is God. Student (1): No, they know who is God as well. Prabhupāda: No. Revatīnandana: You won't get any good information about God. "God is great. God created"—finished. That's not very much information. God's son? A little more information about God's son. Student (1): But you've got no more right to say you know who is God than they have. Revatīnandana: Oh, well, we have a lot more information about God, you see. Student (1): In which way? Revatīnandana: In these *Vedas* . There's a difference between the arithmetic book you get in the first grade of school and the calculus book, in terms of the amount of information. We can tell you more about God because the *Vedas* give more information than the Bible. But the basic principle—"God is there. God is a person"—is in both places. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ is son of God. Therefore God must be person. A person can beget a son. Student (1): God exists now. Prabhupāda: Yes, always exists. Student (1): But therefore where is He, if He's a person? Prabhupāda: Why is He? Revatīnandana: Where is He? Prabhupāda: Where is He? He is with you. He is here. But you have no eyes to see, that's all. Revatīnandana: He says: "I'm sitting in everyone's heart, and from Me comes knowledge, remembrance and forgetfulness." If you turn toward Him, He will give you knowledge, and you'll be able to see Him. But you have to find out who to turn toward. Then you can turn. So from saintly authorities, the line of masters and the *Vedas* , we find out where to turn. And if you turn properly, then by Kṛṣṇa's grace, you'll see Kṛṣṇa. He'll reveal Himself in the course of time. Student (2): Have you all seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He asked if we have all seen Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: We are daily, every moment, seeing. Every moment. Otherwise, do you mean to say we are blindly following something? Student (2): No, I'm not saying that. I'm just asking if someone comes along and joins you, do they see Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, why don't you see Kṛṣṇa? There is picture of Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see, driving horse? Here is Kṛṣṇa. Why don't you see? If you see the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? Student (2): No. Prabhupāda: No, then what can I talk with? Student (2): All I was saying was is it . . . when someone comes . . . Prabhupāda: Here the photograph of your . . . seeing the photograph of your father, is it not seeing your father? That's your argument? Student (1): No, it's seeing a photograph of your father. Prabhupāda: False? Revatīnandana: It's seeing a photograph of the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now . . . but God is Absolute. God's and God's photograph, there is no difference. God's and God's name, there is no difference. Therefore God is Absolute. He is not relative. You can say: "The photograph is not my father," that because it is relative. But God is Absolute. God's name, God's form, God's pastimes—everything is God. That you have to understand, Absolute nature. Otherwise, are these boys and so many thousands and thousands of devotees . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa, this name, is different from Kṛṣṇa, are they foolishly simply chanting "Kṛṣṇa"? Student (1): I don't know, but . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's photograph is the same. That you have to understand. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. Student (1): Do you mean Kṛṣṇa is Absolute and Kṛṣṇa is everything? Prabhupāda: Yes. Student (1): Then why does Kṛṣṇa have a specific form? Prabhupāda: And why not? Kṛṣṇa is everything. Suppose I if I say: "I am everything in this, my institution," does it mean I have lost my personality? Student (1): But you are not . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. If I say, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement . . . if somebody says that, "Bhakti Vedānta Swami is everything," does it mean I have lost my personality? That is material understanding. Kṛṣṇa keeps His personality; still, He is everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. In the government there are so many cabinet ministers, offices, etc. And in every cabinet minister and in every office the will of the prime minister is going on. Therefore in one sense the prime minister is everything. Still, the prime minister is a person who is in control of all those cabinet officers and offices. And you won't find the prime minister in each office, but he's there, because of his influence. In the same way, you are in Kṛṣṇa's energies, and He is everywhere through His energies, but He remains the person in control. The same thing. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example: because the prime minister's energy is working in that office, so the prime minister is there present. So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun, sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient. Now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire. *So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā , "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), "earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies," so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa, because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh, it is hot. Oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult. Student (3): To be Kṛṣṇa conscious, one needs faith that Kṛṣṇa exists, and . . . Prabhupāda: Not only "Kṛṣṇa exists," "What is my relationship with Kṛṣṇa? What is my duty in that relationship?" Everything. Revatīnandana: Just see. Who can produce this? (referring to flower) Who can produce something like this? Supposing you take your best chemists and engineers . . . Student (3): Well, you must call it God, mustn't you. Revatīnandana: And you see who can produce, right? They cannot produce anything with this texture, this nice smell, you see? Prabhupāda: He knows it. Student (3): It doesn't smell. Revatīnandana: So many persons can make an artificial flower that's not as nice as that one, but they cannot reproduce that. And then we say that Kṛṣṇa is the Personality of Godhead, who is full of knowledge, full of beauty, full of power. With full knowledge, beauty and power . . . Prabhupāda: Because He has got full knowledge, He knows how to . . . now, this flower has come from earth, and other flower has come also from the earth. But the fragrance is within the earth. But you cannot take the fragrance from the earth. You do not know. But Kṛṣṇa is taking. Just see. Therefore His knowledge is perfect. Omnipotent, omniscient. He knows how to take. He knows the process. So many flowers are coming. Revatīnandana: Then, when you can see a flower in this consciousness, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Through that flower, Kṛṣṇa is smiling at you. He is offering, He is smiling at you through that flower, and He is there, smiling. Student (3): I can see a God, smiling at me from the flower. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: That's right. *Student (3): I see no relationship with the flower . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: So but you do not know who is God. That is the difference. Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa's saying: "I am the cause of everything. From Me the whole creation flows." He is the person who has designed the flower that you cannot design. And if you want to see Him directly, if you want to associate with Him personally, He says: "Only by pure love and devotion can I be seen." Therefore our yoga is to love Kṛṣṇa. And then you can see everything when you see Kṛṣṇa. Student (2): But this is your yoga , right? Revatīnandana: It's Kṛṣṇa's yoga . Student (2): Yeah okay, well, but . . . *Prabhupāda: yoga means connection. As soon as you study Kṛṣṇa in this way, you make your connection with Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga . yoga means connection, the Sanskrit word yoga . And the opposite word is viyoga , disconnection. yoga*-viyoga . So yoga means, real yoga means to connect your relationship, your identity, with Kṛṣṇa. That is called yoga . Hmm. So take little prasādam . Come on. Revatīnandana: Take some little sweet. Student (2): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Come on. Student (2): I can't. Prabhupāda: No, no, I will give you. Student (2): Thanks. Prabhupāda: So let us stop here. Next I can give some talk. Revatīnandana: All glories to Prabhupāda. (offers obeisances) So Prabhupāda will take some rest now. Student (3): Thanks very much for talking to us. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (guests leave) So bring little milk. Devotees: (indistinct discussion) 10 o'clock . . . quarter to Ten. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. (end) Conversation with Father Simon and Brother Roger -- July 17, 1973, London Prabhupāda: Shall I address you as father? Father Simon: I’m Father Simon, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: This is Brother Roger. Prabhupāda: So father’s father. Father has got a father? Is it not? Father Simon: Yes (laughs). Prabhupāda: So let us go. I am father, I have got my father, my father has got father. In this way, who is the ultimate father? There must be one ultimate father. Because I have got my father, my father has got father. So you go on, it does not mean that on the tenth generation or twentieth generation I could not see the father. That does not mean there was no father. There must have—a father. Therefore, originally, there is the Supreme Father, and your Christian religion recognizes God as the Father. You pray “oh Father”. So, our experience is that I am also father, my father is also father but we are all persons. Therefore, the original Father, the beginning Father—He must be a person. What is your opinion? He cannot be impersonal. Do you agree or not? Father Simon: Ah, yes, we believe in… Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: God as person, yeh quite. Prabhupāda: So, father is controller. Father controls me, I am son. My father controls me, father controls the family. Therefore, in a small jurisdiction the father is the controller. Similarly, his father he is also controller, the Supreme Father is the Supreme Controller. That is Vedic version: *The Supreme Father is Kṛṣṇa. All controller. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—His form is not like us, His form is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss. So why I am being the son of the same Father by descendance—why my body is not like Him? My body is not eternal, I have to give up this body. My body is full of ignorance. There is no knowledge, I do not know what is going on within my body. Still, I claim it is my body. I eat but I do not know how the eatables turn into so many secretions, turn into blood, into urine, into so many things. They are divided, the big mechanical process is going on. But I do not know exactly. And when there is some disturbance in the metabolism of the function of the bodily machine, I go to the doctor because I do not know. So, therefore, I am full of ignorance—my body. *And sac*-cid-ānanda: sat means “eternal”; cit means “full of knowledge”; *and ānanda means “full of bliss.” So, this body is full of miseries. It is not blissful. Apart from all other miserable conditions, we have to meet death, which we do not want. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: You may be very proud of your advancement of knowledge. But the main problems of life—birth, death, old age, and disease—there is no remedy. You have not discovered any remedy for this miserable condition. Therefore, my body is temporary, it is full of ignorance, it is full of miseries. God’s body is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of pleasure. This is the distinction between God and myself. Otherwise, God is also a living being—supreme living being. I am also living being. That is stated in the *Vedas*: God is the supreme eternal, among the other eternals—other eternals who are the living entities. We are also eternal. You do not die after the destruction of the body: So, because we are now in the conditional stage of material life, we are undergoing this birth, death, old age, and disease. Otherwise, we are as good as Kṛṣṇa or God, we have got our spiritual body which is now covered. Now, our main business is how to become aloof from this conditional life. That is our main business in human life. We should not act in such a way that we become more conditioned. Just like a prisoner in the prison house—his business is how to finish that period of punishment and go out of the prison. Not to increase more entanglement so that he will continue prison life again, again, again. So that people do not understand—they are trying to be happy in the prison house, which is impossible. Prison house is never meant for happiness. It is meant for giving distress to the criminals so that he may come to his senses. But unfortunately, they are making association, combination to become happy in the prison house. That is their ignorance. In the prison house, in the material world, there is no possibility of happiness. Therefore, the aim should be to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is the main business of human beings—especially because in the animal life it is not possible. They cannot make any progress of spiritual life. But in the human life also, if we remain just like animals, then we are missing the opportunity. *So, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that people may not live like animals. Therefore, all our students, they follow strictly the prohibited principles: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. *Illicit sex is animal. Animal has no—in the animal society there is no marriage. Any man*-woman mixes and have sex life. That is animal—illicit sex. Similarly, human being eating meat—that is also animalism. The tigers, the jackals, the cats, dogs—they can eat meat. The human being—just like you have brought so many nice things. They have got—God has given so many nice things—why they should eat meat? And so far intoxication—in the material condition of life we are already intoxicated. Our brain is agitated—crazy. Because we are accepting this body: I am not this body, but I am accepting this body—this is madness. So, if he is indulging again further intoxication, then when will he come to his senses? Therefore, intoxication is also animalism. And gambling—that is also another lower class of engagement. Why should we gamble? We are destined to some extent suffering or enjoying according to my past karma. We cannot decrease it or increase it. That is not possible. So why should we indulge in gambling? Better that time be utilized for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—God consciousness. So, this is our program. We are pushing on the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the basis of the science of God. It is not a sentimental religious movement. Therefore, we welcome everyone. Everyone from the human society. And they are coming, they are understanding. Kṛṣṇa was not known—it was known, but not so elaborately—four or five years ago when this European and American, they are accepting this Kṛṣṇa cult. And I think there is very good chance of cooperating with the Christian religion, because Christian religion is also propagating God consciousness. Hm. *But we claim to be a little more accurate—we get the name of God, His activities, His characteristics—everything—stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So, if we cooperate, then the people of the world will be benefited. That is our submission. Hm. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think it is wonderful that so many young people are being inspired to seek the things of God. Brother Roger: Yeah. Father Simon: And being helped to love God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So one Father in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that “these boys, they are our boys. From Christian or from Jewish group they have joined this movement. But before that, they are not interested about God. And how it is that they have become mad after God?” This is the statement of a Christian priest in Boston. Father Simon: I think the great need of this time is for real spiritual teaching, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: (indistinct) before. *Prabhupāda: And because Bhagavad*-gītā, we understand that is the science of God. God is explaining Himself—what He is. God cannot be known by our mental speculation; He is unlimited. But if He reveals Himself, we can know something about Him. That is the statement of *Bhāgavatam*: Our present senses are covered by these material ingredients, therefore it is not possible to speculate about God by these material senses. The senses are to be purified to come to the spiritual position. Then, when we apply our senses in the service of the master of the senses… *God is the master of the senses. His name is Hṛṣīkeśa. Hṛṣīka means “senses.” In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, God says—Kṛṣṇa says—“I have got my hands and legs everywhere.” So, my hand is God’s hand. We can easily understand—because a son’s body is created by the father. So, the hand of the son is also hand of the father. So therefore, our senses—our hands, legs, and everything—they are being God’s property. They should be engaged for God’s activities—not for any other reason. Just like my hand, I use it for my purpose, my hand is not used for your purpose. Similarly, if we realize that the proprietor of my senses is the Supreme Lord, therefore my senses should be engaged for the service of the Lord. *Actually, they are not mine—they are Kṛṣṇa’s, God’s. So that is the formula of bhakti*-yoga: We are thinking now “I am Indian, I am Englishman, I am German, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim.” They are thinking like that. These are all designations. So, one should be free from all designations: He should be purified in God consciousness. “I am servant of God,” or “I am servant of Kṛṣṇa.” This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now I am thinking “I am servant of my family, I am servant of my community, I am servant of my nation, I am servant of my group…” So many things. “I am this, I am that.” These are all designations. *Therefore, the formula is sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ—one should be free from all designations. That is called brahma-jñāna—this real identity is “I am part and parcel of God. I am servant of God.” When you come to this sense, then my senses are purified. With that purified sense, we can serve God. That is called bhakti-yoga: Hṛṣīka means “senses.” When the senses are purified, then in that purified sense we serve the Supreme—that is liberation: (aside:): Call that paṇḍita mahāśaya. (Pradyumna) *Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate—that is spiritual existence. So here, our students, they are no more identifying themselves either as Christian or Hindu or German or Englishman or Indian. They are thinking themselves as eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So here is factual unity—factual unity, unity on the platform of spirit soul. And unity on the material platform is not possible. Material platform—there is no possibility of… so many times they have tried unity on the material platform. It has failed. That is not possible. Because on the material plane… (aside:): This door is open. Close it. So, on the spiritual platform there is possibility of imitating (?). Otherwise, there is no possibility of ending it. So, what is your opinion about our movement? Father Simon: I think that we must hope and pray that the Lord will use all these stirring’s to his end. Glory to draw everyone close to Him and we won’t be sidetracked as you say into labels and designations. His (mumble) people so easily take on the externals same thing. Something some craze or fashion or whatever. And identify themselves with that and it becomes another limited thing, another prison. And then the very things that God gives us to enable us to grow out of the prison, to break out of the prison. We build them up into another little prison and they witness that all the religions I think is to this great freedom that God has and that God wants us to have. To get beyond these, to get beyond the merely externals… Prabhupāda: Boliye (Hindi) Father Simon: And beyond the (chuckles)… Prabhupāda: I puzzled; I do not follow. Revaténandana: Well, he says it’s, it’s very essential. He agrees it’s essential to get beyond these material designations. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: And into the higher freedom that God has. That He wants us all to have, is that? Father Simon: Yes. Revaténandana: That’s a very brief summary (laughter). *Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got the freedom because we are part and parcel of God. God is complete free—His freedom is not dependent on others—svarāṭ. Just like we get some knowledge from our teacher, so God is not dependent like that: svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (BG 3.22). He is self-sufficient, He is complete free. That is the distinction between God and us. And because we are part and parcel of God, we have got little freedom. When you misuse that little freedom that is our material condition. When we use that freedom properly, that is our spiritual condition. Father Simon: Our great conviction is that it is always God reaching out to us and that if we call Him—Lord. If we call Him the Lord then in surrendering our human, apparent human freedom to Him. He leads us beyond ourselves… Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: He is always confronting us with the, the new step that we can take towards Him. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the instruction of the Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that you give up any, everything else you just simply surrender to Me, and I give you all protection. Father Simon: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the instruction, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. (aside:) Find that verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Real religion is to surrender to God. That is real religion. And other’s religion which you have manufactured that maybe temporarily beneficial but that is not real religion. In Bhāgavata also, it is confirmed: *That type of religion is first class following which one becomes a surrendered devotee to the Supreme Lord. That is first class religion. And, ahaituky apratihatā, that surrender is without any motive. The surrender should be: God is great, I am His servant, so I fully surrender unto Him. Not that I’ll get some motivated profit. There is no such thing, because He will take care of me, He knows everything. Yoga*-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Just like a child is fully surrendered to the parents, the parent is taking care of what the child needs, how the child will be comfortable. So, therefore, our only business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And then He will take—there is no need of asking anything from Him. There is no need. He knows, He’s omnipotent, omniscient. He knows my needs and He promises: *Just like exactly the father takes care of the child. He knows how the child will be happy, what does he require. Now he requires food, now he requires rest. So, everything is there, he is surrendered simply to the lap of mother, to the care of father. And that kind of surrender is the religion. Completely. And that is, Kṛṣṇa says: sarva*-dharmān parityajya. We might have manufactured so many things as religion. Why difference of religion? Why the Hindus, the Christians, the Mohammedans—they think that my religion is different from the others. Religion cannot be different. Religion means God consciousness. If God is one, then religion must be one. And that one religion is surrender to God, that’s all. It doesn’t require any ritualistic ceremony. “God is great, my dear Lord, You are great, I am Your subservient. I forgot it. From this day I surrender unto You. You take charge of me.” That’s all. Even I haven’t got to say “You take charge.” He says “I will take charge.” There is no need of saying also. Simply I have to say: “From this day I am fully surrendered unto You. If You like, You give me protection; if You like, You can kill me; whatever You like, You can do it.” *Just like now, there is no slave. Formerly a slave, the master could do anything with him. Similarly, if we become a slave*-like, then He has—God has—the right to do whatever He likes with me. And that is surrender. And that is religion. That religion is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā: What is the translation? Pradyumna: “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.” Prabhupāda: So, we suffer for our sinful activities, so we should surrender to God and stop our sinful activities. It is not that because I have surrendered to God so I can go on continue with my sinful activity, God will give me protection. No, that is not. You stop—no more sinful activities. Of course, anyone who has surrendered to God, he cannot indulge in sinful activities. Because he will abide by the orders of God, he cannot be sinful: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā If anyone is fully surrendered, then he has got all the good qualities of the demigods: Surāḥ means “the demigods in higher planetary systems.” Devatā. They have got very good qualities, so in the devotee all the good qualities manifest. That is the test. We cannot find any fault with a devotee because everything is good qualities. And on the contrary: One who is not a devotee, surrendered soul, he has no good quality. *By his mental speculation he will simply be materially attached. That is the distinction between devotee and non*-devotee. For devotee there is no more mental speculation. So, one decision: “I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa.” That’s all. Go on. Then follow the words of Kṛṣṇa: (aside) Find that verse. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.” *Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Our process is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, and hearing. This is manmanā—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And then worshipping the Deity in the temple. Manmanā bhava mad*-bhaktaḥ, mad-yājī—worshipping Me. Hm. So, we have got daily class, daily worship, all the devotees they take part. They have got 24 hours engagement. So, mind cannot be diverted from Kṛṣṇa. That is manmanā. Somehow or other he is thinking of Kṛṣṇa—“Now I have to go to preach there, I have to make him member, or I’ll have to lecture there.” Or here also, “Now there is ārati, now there is bhoga, now there is class.” In this way they are engaged thinking of Kṛṣṇa 24 hours. Manmanā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. You have seen our books? Father Simon: I’ve seen some of your, your books—yes. Prabhupāda: You can show our books. Father Simon: You have services at the same times of the day, every day, do you—when you all come together for worship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And prayer. Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got… Father Simon: Yes, impressed. Prabhupāda: From morning 4 o’clock to night 10 o’clock, we have got engagements. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: We are publishing all these books in all important languages. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: English, German, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese. And in India—Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati—as far as possible, we are publishing in all the languages. Father Simon: You have your own printing press? Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are not printed in our press. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: They are printed in Japan. Father Simon: In Japan? Prabhupāda: We cannot print so nicely. (Laughter) Now we are going to print in Germany also; here is the dummy. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: We are also printing in England. We have done our first magazine in England recently. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are expanding. And we are selling our books also very nicely. Yes. In America we are selling on the average about $3,000 daily. Is it not? Revaténandana: I think so. Pradyumna: At least. Prabhupāda: Yes. In Los Angeles alone, we are collecting $1,000, and similarly, in New York. Pradyumna: In New York also. Prabhupāda: And taking all other places, not less than $3,000 daily. Father Simon: Lord Caitanya was the founder of your movement originally. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa was the founder 5,000 years ago. The founder—Kṛṣṇa is the founder and it is coming from time immemorial. Because God is origin, so you cannot find out in which date it begins. But from historical point of view, this movement was started by Kṛṣṇa 5,000 years ago when Kṛṣṇa was present. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, 4th chapter, that He instructed this philosophy formally to the sun god. Now if you take that, it becomes 40 millions or 400 millions of years ago. He spoke to the sun god. So, apart from that, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: Vivasvate—vivasvate means “the president of the sun planet”—Vivasvān. He is the present president of the sun planet. Or King. There must be one predominator in every planet. So, the name of the person who is predominating in the sun planet is Vivasvān. So, from the historical point of view, this philosophy was instructed to sun god over 400 millions of years ago. And apart from that, if we take the history of modern age, 5,000 years ago when the battle of Kurukṣetra took place, He instructed. So, from the last 5,000 years it is coming, but sometimes it is misinterpreted, the lineage is broken. Therefore, again somebody comes on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he makes adjustment. Similarly, 500 years ago, the same movement was rejuvenated by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And we are also following these same footsteps, we are trying to preach this same cult in the Western countries. Now, since 1966, but the movement is very old. It is not that we have started a new movement. No. The same thing which was spoken 400 millions of years ago to the sun god. The same thing which was spoken by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna, and the same thing which was rejuvenated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we are presenting the same thing. And the proof is that either 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, Kṛṣṇa says, “Surrender unto Me.” That’s all. And we are preaching surrender to Kṛṣṇa, so where is the difference? We are speaking the same thing. Either it was spoken 400 millions of years ago or 5,000 years ago, there is no change in the movement. We do not say, “Now we have advanced so much, there is no need of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, you can go on with your own work.” (laughter) We don’t say that. We say the same thing, repetition of the same thing. Therefore, it is called disciplic succession—we don’t change. How it can be changed? God is eternal, we are also eternal, our relationship is eternal. Therefore, the service must be eternal, there is no question of change. Everything is eternal: *These are the statements of the Vedas, and the Bhagavad*-gītā also: In the Vedānta (1.1.2) also it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ. In Bhāgavata (1.1.1) also it is said: ah, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya janmādy asya yataḥ. The same thing is there in every Vedic literature: By studying *Vedas*, one has to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, so anyone who takes Kṛṣṇa as He speaks about Himself, then his knowledge is perfect. *Because what Kṛṣṇa says—that is perfect. Perfect means in any statement where there is no mistake, there is no illusion, there is no cheating. And there is no imperfectness of the senses—that is perfect statement. Our so*-called knowledge is gathered by the imperfect senses; our senses are not perfect. Unless we hear about the sun planet, if we see the sun planet by our eyes—direct perception—we see just like a disc. But when you take authoritative statement from geologist and others, then you understand that it is so many times bigger than this earth. Therefore, direct perception of the sun globe is not perfect. So, nowadays there are so many scientific theories, philosophical. They authorise, “I think; I think, in my opinion.” But he does not think that he is imperfect—what is the value of his opinion? He does not think so. What is the value of his thinking if he is imperfect? And that is a fact, our senses are not perfect. I am proud of possessing these eyes, but I cannot understand anything if I see a thing from distant place, neither I can see the nearest eyeball or the eyelid. So, there are conditions. There is no light—I cannot see. So, I see under conditions. So, what is the perfection? But they write books, “I think, I see.” But what you see, nonsense? What is the value of your eyes? That is the defect. But God has no such defects, therefore whatever He says is perfect. (aside:) Find out this verse, vedāhaṁ samatītāni. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Pradyumna: “O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.” Prabhupāda: So, we should take knowledge from the person who knows the past, present and future. I may not know it because I am imperfect, but He knows me. So, our business is to receive knowledge from the Supreme Perfect, then our knowledge is perfect. Father Simon: I see in one of these books you talk about the beauty of God. Prabhupāda: Hm? Father Simon: Is this a theme that is important in your spirituality—that God reveals Himself as immensely beautiful and attractive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: So that when you begin to see Him… *Prabhupāda: Yes. God means He must be all*-attractive. Father Simon: Yes. *Prabhupāda: All*-attractive. His beauty must be. There are attractive features we can experience in this material world. If a man is very rich, he is attractive. If a man is very learned scholar, he is attractive. If a man is very strong, he is attractive. If a man is very beautiful, he is attractive. So, these are the attractive features. There are six kinds of attractive features—wealth, beauty, strength, influence, knowledge, renunciation; like that. So, God is endowed with all these attractive features—in full. That is the statement of the Vedas: Bhagavān—God’s, the etymological expression of God is Bhagavān. Bhaga means “opulences.” Nobody can be richer than Him, nobody can be wiser than Him, otherwise how God is great? Great in every respect—either in riches or in beauty or in knowledge or in reputation or in strength or in renunciation—everything. He must be the great. Nobody can be richer than God. In India, there is a rascal—he makes like this little gold. Some yogic mystic power, now he has become God. Revatīnandana: Makes what? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotees: Gold. Prabhupāda: Yes, he will show some magic, take a little gold. It will not stay, but by this he has become God. Devotee: He claims to have become God. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: He claims to become God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He claims, but there are fools, and they accept also. So I say that if gold making is the qualification of God, then why shall I take this man as God? I shall take that man who has created gold mines. If that is the qualification of God. So, God has created this material world, and each and every planet there are millions and millions of goldmines. All over the universe. So why shall I take this cheat*-man—as God? Why not the big man who has created the goldmines, if that is the qualification of becoming God. Come to logic, eh? So, these things are going on, especially in India, they made so many (laughter)… There are so many rascals, they are claiming, and now here one rascal has come—another. Revaténandana: Yeah, he says this… His followers say, "When I take the secret session, they touch my eyes and I, I see some light. Nobody else can see," right. But they say, "I can see some light, therefore He is God." Prabhupāda: Who knows that you see? Revaténandana: What about this light? Prabhupāda: Then you say that you have seen, but nobody says… Revaténandana: Nobody else can see. You know (laughs). Prabhupāda: Then what nonsense God you are? Revaténandana: Yeah. But what a little, what a very little bit of light, you see. Everybody can see the sun (laughs). Prabhupāda: Yes. Revaténandana: There is so much light. Prabhupāda: But there are rascals, they follow like that. What can be done? God is so cheap that because he has seen some light, he has become God. Just see. What light he sees, nobody knows, and he says, “Nobody can see.” Then where is the confirmation? Who can say you’re actually seeing or not? So, this bluffing is going on. But when the real God is there, they are not accepting. Who is accepted by stalwart scholars, leading personality, ācāryas—that is not accepted. Somebody says, “I have seen some light, I am God”; *therefore, he is accepted. Cheap*-god. God says here that the whole universal material creation is resting in one fourth energy: (aside) Find out this verse. Pradyumna: Athavā bahunaitena? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pradyumna: “But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself, I pervade and support this entire universe.” Revaténandana: That’s at the end of the tenth chapter. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is tenth chapter. Revaténandana: Tenth chapter, at the end of it, yeah. Father Simon: Detailed knowledge. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Father Simon: I think leads people closer to God, doesn’t it? Saint Teresa, one of the great Christian Saints, waged a lifelong campaign against people who knew a little and thought they knew everything. And she had a great belief in real learning because her experience of really learned priests was that even though they perhaps haven’t experienced much themselves, because they were really learning, they had a large understanding of what God could do and so were open to recognize His acts. But the semi*-lettered people—she called them “the half-educated people”—who have got a little bit of knowledge and then think, “This is it, I know everything.” They are the people who push everybody along a narrow little road and saying, “This is the way.” (chuckles) Prabhupāda: This is that. Anyone who is claiming that he has knowledge, he must receive the knowledge from the perfect. Father Simon: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, his knowledge is not perfect. Father Simon: Well, real knowledge is always very humble in some ways. Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Real knowledge is received from the perfect. Our process is that we accept knowledge in the descending process—not by the ascending process. There are two kinds of ways. By speculation, just like they are trying to know the sun, the moon—they are trying to go there. This is ascending process. Ascending process. But there is another process—descending process. The knowledge comes from the moon, from the sun, from other planets. But that is perfect knowledge, because that knowledge is coming from a person who actually resides—that is perfect knowledge. And because my speculative power is limited, therefore, I cannot understand anything by this speculative knowledge. Revaténandana: Even scriptures. If I study a scripture in the same way, I’ll try to understand it by my potency… Father Simon: Yeah. Revaténandana: I can make mistakes; I will make mistakes. Father Simon: Yes, scripture speaks with its own authority. And it is indirect… (indistinct) Revaténandana: If I don’t—I don’t hear, I don’t understand such good authority. Father Simon: I’ve suffered a lot from scripture scholars (chuckles) who are too clever to believe. And not clever (mumble)… *Prabhupāda: No. When there is no speculative knowledge, there is no question of belief. It is fact. There is a verse in Brahma*-saṁhitā: Now there is kingdom of God—every scripture, every religion accepts. Now if you want to find out where is that kingdom of God… So: The modern scientist says that to go to the highest planetary system it will take 40,000 of years. Now if you want to go to the spiritual kingdom which is far beyond this material world, so how you will go there? Because you cannot finish this material world even by 40,000 of years. You’re not going to live even 40 hundreds of years—or 40 years nowadays (chuckles). So, I will finish this material span—40,000 years—then we have to… So far, we have got information: the universe is covered by layers of five elements—earth, air, water, stock (?). So each layer is ten times more than the other layer. So, you have to penetrate through that, then you come to the spiritual sky. Then there is spiritual planets, and the highest planet is called Goloka Vṛndāvana, where Kṛṣṇa lives. *So therefore, if we want to go there by our own endeavour, then the Brahma*-saṁhitā says: If you travel millions of years to go to that planet with the speed of mind and air, still it will be unknown to you. This is ascending process. But when Kṛṣṇa comes, He gives the information: (aside) Find out. Tad dhāma paramaṁ. It is the information. Pradyumna: “That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.” *Prabhupāda: So, there is a place where there is no need of illumination by sunlight or moonlight—it is self*-illuminated. Just like we, the sun planet here, we have got one instance. The sun does not require any illumination, the planet itself is light. Similarly, the spiritual sky all the planets there—Vaikuṇṭha-loka—they are self-illuminating, there is no darkness. Therefore, this material world is called tamaḥ. Tamaḥ means “darkness.” Tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ (Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.3.28). The Vedic instruction is don’t remain in this dark world—it is by nature dark, therefore it requires this electricity. The sun, the moon… but there is another world which is self-illuminating—there is no need of… That is there stated, *So, we have to take knowledge in that way. There is spiritual world, here is the description. There are other descriptions also in Bhāgavatam. The spiritual world. There is also aeroplane, everything is there—but they are all spiritual. Here everything is material. Giving the best service to the human society—that, yat gatvā na nivartante—just try to go to that place wherefrom you haven’t got to return again. You live there eternally with full knowledge and bliss, and this is our business. And we are not manufacture this ideas—they are all stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. We are simply distributing that knowledge. Revatīnandana: Everybody else is trying to enjoy the prison house. Prabhupāda: Hah! Revatīnandana: And we are leaving (laughs). *Prabhupāda: We are kicking your… (Laughter) Kicking this nonsense, what is this? Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It is duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says: ābrahma*-bhuvanāl lokāḥ—even if you go to the highest planet. You may get a duration of life—millions of years. But that does not mean you become eternal, that is not possible: ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna. If you are actually serious of having eternal life, blissful and full of knowledge—then you must go back to home, back to Godhead. That is possible: mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25)—my devotees go, come there, here. What is that? Pradyumna: “From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.” *Prabhupāda: That’s it. So why not try for this? There is another verse: yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ, bhūtējyā yānti bhūtāni mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām Pradyumna: “Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.” *Prabhupāda: That’s all. So why should I go, waste my time to go to the ghosts and ancestor and demigod—why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Because I have to work for that, so why not work for the best? This is our function. It is clearly stated that you, if you prepare for going to the higher… Not in this way that I have got a sputnik, I shall go. No. That is not possible. You have to prepare yourself to go to the moon planet, to the sun planet, to the Venus. There are innumerable—you can go there, to the Brahma*-loka planet, yānti deva-vratā devān. So, you have to prepare in this life. Similarly, if you want to go to the pitṛ-loka and other places—you have to prepare. And if you prepare yourself to come to My place—you can come. So, what will be my duty—so why not work for going back to Kṛṣṇa’s place? That is intelligence. I have to work for going somewhere—if somebody says you can take ticket either for moon planet or sun planet or Vaikuṇṭha planet. Then what ticket I shall take? Give me the Vaikuṇṭha ticket (laughter). Why shall I take the sun planet or moon planet? This is intelligence—why shall I waste my time again? Give me that ticket. So, this is intelligence. Devotee: And you take the ticket by surrendering. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Ticket is distributed free. Kṛṣṇa coming—“take this ticket.” His devotees are coming—“take this ticket.” But we are—“no, we shall rot here,” that’s all. That is my determination. Revatīnandana: What do you think about this being born and dying again and again? This is the assumption in this whole discussion now. This is… Father Simon: Well, it isn’t necessarily a… I mean the basic assumption is that man is made for eternal life. And from that point of view, temporal life is prison. And one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” Which I think is quite good—that this is the… Revatīnandana: He says one of the medieval definitions of hell is “unending time.” And unending time always to be in the conception of time. Father Simon: Hm. Revatīnandana: That’s very nice. Father Simon: And I don’t… Christian don’t believe that we have one after another bodily existence here. But I think the practical point is the same, isn’t it? That our business here on earth is to learn how to be citizens of heaven. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And I think that, I mean just as we would say… Prabhupāda: What is the description of heaven? Is there any description? Father Simon: Well, all kinds of descriptions of heaven. They’re—they are just pictures. One is very like one that you have mentioned where you don’t need the sun or the moon because God is their light and “let us walk in the light of the Lord.” Prabhupāda: Then heaven means kingdom of God? Father Simon: Kingdom of God. Devotee: Hm. Revaténandana: Sometimes. Devotee: Yes. Father Simon: Yes. Revaténandana: Some, sometimes it is deceived (?) in that way. Prabhupāda: We have got our Vedic description. The standard of living—very, very high. Revaténandana: Sometimes it’s… Prabhupāda: Duration of life—very long. For 10,000 years of the… Everything is very nice or nicer, better than this place. But that is not spiritual. You can live for 10,000 years but in the spiritual world there is no such thing, you live eternally. Na nivartante ( BG 15.6), one does not come. So heavenly planet is also temporary because this universe will be annihilated, there will be dissolution of the whole universe. At that time this heavenly planets also will be dissolved. So that is not permanent. That is the conception of heavenly: *The standard of living may be very high but that is not permanent residence. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says: mad*-dhāma gatvā, punar janma na vidyate ( BG 8.16). So, as we are eternal, we must return to eternal world and that is perfection of life. Why should we remain in this temporary life and accept repetition of birth and death? *Dehāntaraṁ*-prāptir—they are accepting another body. So, this transmigration of the soul, accepting another body, is very risky. I do not know what kind of body I am going to take next. But if I prepare in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but Kṛṣṇa says that you can come back. So, if you follow Kṛṣṇa’s instruction in devotional service, then you are confident that you are going to Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home, back to God. Father Simon: I’m glad to hear you say that because I think a lot of Westerners have a very wrong idea of Eastern teaching on this and think that it means that you don’t have to bother because if you don’t get there in this life you have another life and another life and you will get there one day. Prabhupāda: So why do they think wrong? Father Simon: I was thinking… Prabhupāda: Is that right? They are right to even think… Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Eh? Father Simon: I think that is a very wrong doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: A very dangerous doctrine. Prabhupāda: Which one? Father Simon: That you can forget about, you needn’t worry if you don’t get there this time, you’ll get there next time. Because since we, all the real spiritual teaching says you have got your chance now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: And you must take it now (chuckles). Prabhupāda: That chance is always, the chance is always there. Father Simon: Yes, but as you say it, transmigration is a risky (chuckles), a risky business. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, risky business… Father Simon: There is no reason to suppose it’s going to be (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: Because if one does not know what kind of body he is going to get next life. Is it not risky? Father Simon: And if you keep putting off the time, then you will make it harder. Revaténandana: If you keep putting off spiritual life you are making it harder and harder to take to it. Prabhupāda: That is risky, that I am saying. Devotee: Process (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is risky. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead, that is not risky. But if you remain in darkness, you do not know… Karmīs, they do not know. They are working hard just like hogs and dogs without knowing any future of life. Their life is very risky. They do not know. How they’ll may transmigrate from this body to another body. Therefore, their life is risky. One who has understood this fact that there is life after death and if I try for it, I can go to the kingdom of God—so let me try for this—his life is not risky, his life is… One who is in darkness, he does not know what is happening next. He’s risky, his life is risky. Brother Roger: This is also clear, my lord, that this, the use of this body now is a privilege—surely. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brother Roger: And that surely this (indistinct)… Prabhupāda: This is the only body… Brother Roger: …you transmigrate… Prabhupāda: Where you can, when you can prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. In the next life you get a body of a cat or dog, then for millions of years you have no knowledge. Then you have to again make progress… Evolve from dog to cat, or cat to dog, like that there is evolutionary process. So, it will take millions and millions of again to come to this human form of life. And again, coming in the human form of life, if you don’t prepare yourself for going back to home, back to Godhead—then you are missing the chance. Nature gives you the chance. Now you have got this body, you take information how to go back to home, back to Godhead and prepare yourself and be happy. But if you don’t take advantage of it, we remain like cats and dogs—then you are missing. If you again become entangled with sinful activities, then you are missing the chance. Father Simon: It’s always that very simple invitation of God’s grace, isn’t it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Father Simon: That every man (indistinct). He is saying “come to me…” *Prabhupāda: God is reminding, He’s canvassing, He’s canvassing: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām etī ( BG 18.66)—you come to Me. Father Simon: Hm. Prabhupāda: You take shelter of Me, I will give you all protection. But we won’t take. Father Simon: As we have it in the Christian scriptures, the Lord waits to be gracious, to (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Yes, He’s already gracious. He’s coming Himself. He is sending His devotee, He’s sending His representative, He’s leaving the book—you study. He is giving the instruction, every way God is helping us. He is sitting within your heart, He’s giving you good counsel, but we are determined not to accept anything of God. So that life is very risky. Now in the Bhagavad*-gītā we understand: We have to change this body to another body. Now, that body—we can see there are so many billions and trillions of varieties of body. At least according to śāstra, 8,400,000. So, we may enter any of them—according to our work. We are preparing next body by our karma. We have been given the chance of human form of body to understand God, but if we do not do that, if we remain like cats and dogs, then the next life again become cats and dogs. After all, we have to accept another body. The soul is eternal. When this body is useless, no more fit for living, I have to give it up and take another body. That is given: Just like we put on some dress, garment. When it is not fit, we throw it away, we take another garment. So, this body is also like that. (indistinct) (End) Conversation -- July 27, 1973, London (Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy) Sir Alistair Hardy: (reading from notes) ". . . answer in Christian terms, but no doubt the same idea could be put into the language of other faiths. It is to bring about the kingdom of God on earth: 'Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.' " Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: Question six: "How does one achieve that goal?" "By seeking guidance, help, strength, and the power to accomplish one's humble path towards its achievement. By seeking it through prayer, through content, and the power we call God." Your question seven: "How can Christianity and Kṛṣṇa consciousness cooperate for the general benefit of the British people?" Now here I find this difficult to answer. I say: "I cannot pretend to be able to answer this, for I have no deep knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *On the other hand, I must say that I do not believe that Christianity even in co*-operation with Kṛṣṇa consciousness can more particularly benefit the British people than people of other nationalities." I wouldn't like to confine God's power to the British people; I would say to the whole peoples of the world. Now your last question, I'm afraid I haven't had time to get typed. It's written . . . Prabhupāda: That's alright. That's alright. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . it's written on your copy, but not on . . . Prabhupāda: No, I can read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: I've got a pencil copy here. Prabhupāda: I can read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: You can read it, can you? Yes. Prabhupāda: I read it. Sir Alistair Hardy: Can you read it? Yes. Shall I read it out for the others to hear? Should I read it out? I'll read it out. The eighth question . . . I was getting this typed . . . Prabhupāda: That's alright. Sir Alistair Hardy: I wrote this. I had it rough . . . "How is God realized? And what are the different features?" My answer is: "He is realized in the world through the divinely inspired actions of man. The different features are, to mention only some, acts of courage; acts of love, compassion and sacrifice; acts of creation in art, literature, music and science—and on the more personal side, the sense of the numerous experience in sacred places and situations; the joyous wonder of natural beauty, and, on rare occasions, for those who are so favored, the ecstasy of mystical experience." Well, those are short answers to your questions in all humility, and I've thought over them. You see, I have got a scientific training. I'm not so concerned as you are, perhaps, with the great utterances of the past, because I feel God is living today as much as He was in the past, and while the great words of the great prophets in our own religion, and of Jesus—also to mention the importance of St. Paul and the others—to my mind they are no more important than the manifestations of the will of God and the power of God, the voice of God, the experience of God working now, today. I think we have got to show the world that we aren't just living with a religion that is founded simply on the utterances of the past, but what is a living religion that can alter the world and that can be as vital in any country of the world. I want to see something like science. Science, as I have said, is not just confined to one country; it has a universal application. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: But I believe a religion that can embrace . . . Prabhupāda: That is real religion. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . the Kṛṣṇa, Christianity, possibly parts of Buddhism and so on, can be brought together to show mankind that here is a living force in the world quite as powerful as the force of atomic energy in science. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Sir Alistair Hardy: That is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to collect experience that will, I hope, at any rate, begin to convince the intellectual world that here is something that is really vitally important in man's make*-up. Something, as I say, as important biologically as sex. Because I think man's whole development has been through the power of God within him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything which is in God, that is partially represented in man, because . . . because every living being is part and parcel of God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, that's just what I feel. *Prabhupāda: (aside) Just find out the . . . mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ ( BG 15.7). Sir Alistair Hardy: God is partly transcended, but He's inside the self, too. *Prabhupāda: Here is the Bhagavad*-gītā verse, in the Fifteenth Chapter, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ . Revatīnandana: The first part of that statement was that everything that is in God is partly represented in man. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, yes. Revatīnandana: That was the first part, wasn't it? Prabhupāda: So here that there are, of course, a number of problems of human life. Yes. There are a number of problems. Just like when a man becomes diseased, particular type of disease—suppose he is attacked with, infected with typhoid fever. So he has got so many symptoms, but the diagnosis is, doctor says that he is infected with typhoid fever. Similarly, our one problem is that we do not know what is God. Why this problem? This human form life is particularly a gift of nature for understanding God, because in the human society, there is attempt to understand God, either through Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muhammadan religion or Buddhist religion. In every civilized human society there is a kind of institution through which they want to know God. Therefore the problem of human life is to know God. Sir Alistair Hardy: I agree. Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no other problem. These economic problem, other problems, that is our creation. Actually, they are our artificial problem. Because our . . . what is our problem? Eating, sleeping, mating and defending. We have to eat something, we have to live somewhere, we must have our sex life and we must defend. These are four problems of living entity. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, but I am saying that these which are true as economic problems, those of overpopulation, those of . . . Prabhupāda: No. That we do not accept, that there is overpopulation. There is mismanagement. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, there is malnutrition, there is . . . Prabhupāda: No, that is . . . that is our mismanagement. Just like I will say that I have studied all over the world, I have seen, there are immense potencies. In my opinion if we, all nations of the world, as the United Nation, if you have got to really brain, and if we are really anxious to solve the problems, so far overpopulation is concerned, ten times overpopulation as at the present can be provided by the production of the world. Ten times. Sir Alistair Hardy: But in two or three hundred years' time, if we go on at the present rate, we should have exceeded that ten times. Prabhupāda: No, no. Another thing is, that is the problem: we do not believe in God. That is the problem. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I agree . . . Prabhupāda: No, just try . . . just hear me. Because from Vedic injunction we understand, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13): God alone provides everyone with all the necessities of life. And in your Christian faith also, you ask God, "Give us our daily bread." You accept that God is the supplier. So there is no question of population. The population may increase hundred times what it is now, God is able to provide them. But we do not believe in God. That is our main disease. That we can see in the jungles in Africa there are hundreds of millions of elephants. Who is supplying them food? They eat at a time tons, and they are also eating. They have no economic problem. Similarly one ant, he wants only a grain of sugar—still it has got problem, where to find out that grain. So the problem or no problem—because we do not believe in God. We think that we provide ourself. This idea, this atheistic idea, is a problem. That means we do not know what is God, we do not know what is God's potency, we do not know how God supplies us, because we do not know all these things. Why? Because you do not know what is God. We think God an imagination, maybe like us, a little more powerful. No. God, according to Parāśara Muni's definition, that He is completely opulent in riches, in strength, in reputation, in beauty, in knowledge and in energies. He is complete. So if we are sons of God, just like this verse says . . . (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses . . ." Prabhupāda: That is the problem: because they have forgotten God. Although they are part and parcel of God, the struggle for existence is there. (aside) The purport? Pradyumna: "In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living being is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditioned life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said sanātanaḥ ." *"According to the Vedic version, the Supreme Lord manifests and expands Himself in innumerable expansions, of which the primary expansions are called viṣṇu*-tattva and the secondary expansions are called the living entities. In other words, the viṣṇu-tattva is the personal expansion, and the living entities are separated expansions. By His personal expansion, He is manifested in various forms like Lord Rāma, Nṛsiṁha . . . Nṛsiṁhadeva, Viṣṇumūrti and all the predominating Deities in the Vaikuṇṭha planets." "The separated expansions, the living entities, are eternally servitors. The personal expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual identities of the Godhead, are always present. Similarly, the separated expansions of living entities have their identities. As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities have also fragmental qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity has an individual soul, his personal individuality and a minute form of independence." "By misuse of that independence one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated. In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is freed from this material condition, and he is under engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and he forgets the transcendental loving service of the Lord." Prabhupāda: This is the material problem. As soon as he forgets his relationship with God, he identifies himself with the material world, that "I am a product of this material world," the problem is created. But that is also due to his forgetfulness of God; *therefore real problem is that he has forgotten his relationship with God. Other problems, they are subsidiary, by*-product. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I agree, but don't you think it's possible that some of these other, which are, true, minor problems concerned . . . Prabhupāda: The minor problems will be solved if the major problem is solved. Just like if you have typhoid, disease is taken care of. When you are out of typhoid infection, all other symptoms accompanying typhoid fever will automatically vanish. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, in fact I do say that in my second philosophic aspect of it. Prabhupāda: So . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Maybe it is the more important. But it may . . . it might be that in the present materialistic phase of the world, these other . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, the present materialistic world, the leaders, they do not know what is God. They are, almost all the leaders, they are godless, andhā : they have been described as blind leaders, because they have no knowledge of God. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). In the Bhāgavata it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ . They do not know; *people in general, they do not know that their real problem is how to approach the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. And the leaders, so*-called leaders, who have created so many problems, they also do not know; therefore the leaders are blind and the followers are blind—so what will be their result? If a blind man leads other blind man . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. Prabhupāda: So the real problem is, as we emphasize, not whimsically; *it is the beginning of the Vedānta*-sūtra . The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ , that this human life is meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth, God—no other enquiry. But they have rejected this thing. They are embarrassed with the subsequent problems. They do not know the real problem. The real problem is to enquire, "What is God? What I am? What is my relationship with God?" The educational department or advancement of science and education—everything should be employed to solve this problem, that people are now disinterested in the matter of understanding God—they think it is frivolous. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes. I fully agree. I fully agree with you, and . . . *Prabhupāda: Other problem, as you have mentioned. Therefore we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement just to manipulate this problem. People are neglecting. They are not taking very serious attention to understand about God. That is their main disease. And other problems, that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : As in this verse it is said that, "These living entities, they are part and parcel of Me." So qualitatively God and we living entities, we are one qualitatively. There cannot be any problem. As God has no problem, therefore we have no problem. This is mistaken. We have created problem in our disease condition. As soon as we come into this material world, material existence, to lord it over . . . they are creating this, all the nations, all these leaders, they are creating problems. Because every nation wants to lord it over the nature. Just like sometimes your people, British people, they wanted to expand their empire, lord it over some . . . now the Russians are trying in a different way, the Americans are trying in different way, some times before France tried, Napoleon; sometimes German tried. So they are coming and going. They cannot. It is not possible. So this endeavor to lord it over the material nature without caring for God, the Supreme Lord, that is real disease; then all other problems come. Therefore if we try to cure the real disease, godlessness, no understanding of God . . . just like you have mentioned many times, you have not given any definite idea what is God. In your statement in no place I could find that you have got a definite idea, "Here is God." That there is no such mention. So . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, I would say that God, to me, is the manifestation of this divine entity, partly with myself and partly outside, one which we can approach and that gives, as I say, carries . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot give a figure, just like we give figure: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa, with fruit in His hand. He is so beautiful with a feather, peacock feather, on His head." These are the descriptions in the Vedic . . . (break) Sir Alistair Hardy: I can give many figures into which God . . . *Prabhupāda: But many figures may be, but we have to . . . if we are serious students, this Vedic literature is the original literature. Other literary figures, they came later on. From historical point of, that everyone will admit. And so far Vedic literature is concerned, it is authoritative not only for the Indians, and other nations also they are also serious student of Vedic literature. Take Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā is not only meant for the Indians and Hindus, but in all other countries they have good study of Bhagavad-gītā; *they tried to understand Bhagavad*-gītā —even the Muhammadans they also; Japan also, I've seen, and what to speak of European countries. Sir Alistair Hardy: You see, I should say the same of Jesus. I should say exactly the same of Jesus as you are saying of your founder. *Prabhupāda: So from historical point of view, if you take history, then Bhagavad*-gītā comes first, five thousand years ago, whereas other things . . . if we take history, maybe two thousand years. So from historical point of view this Vedic literature is most authoritative. Not only from historical point of view; *from rational point of view. Just like the Vedānta*-sūtra , when it is proposing, athāto brahma jijñāsāḥ , then nobody can defy this proposition that this human life is specially meant for enquiring about the Absolute Truth. Because in other life, lower than human being, the cats and dogs, they have no power to enquire what about . . . what is God. They cannot. Therefore human life, with developed consciousness, it is his only business to know God. So far his economic problems are concerned, that does not depend on his endeavor; it is already there. Just like cat, dog, elephant, serpent, tree, insect, bird, beast—everyone got his food. Why the human beings will not have his food provided by God? Because he has left the idea that, "God maintains me"; he's thinking it's his problem. But the other living entities, animals, less intelligent, they have no problem. A small bird, he has no problem; a small insect, he has no problem. But we have created our problem due to godlessness. Therefore real problem is no knowledge about God. That is the problem of human society, at least at the present moment. Other problems are subsidiary. Because we can study others: birds, beasts, animals, they have no such problem. They do not go to do business or profession or to make factories for their livelihood, but they are getting regularly. But why we should not get? If birds and beasts, animals, ants, they can get without any endeavor their food, so why we shall not get? We are also one of the living entities, so why should we create problem? This is the . . . real problem is godlessness, that we do not depend on God; we depend on our own endeavor, exploitation of the material resources. Therefore we have created problem. Therefore these problems are due to our godlessness. Therefore real problem is to know God—then everything, all problems will be solved. Sir Alistair Hardy: Yes, I would agree. I would agree. Prabhupāda: This is not my creation. This is said in the Upaniṣad : yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavanti (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand God, then everything will be understood automatically. Automatically. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavanti . Therefore real problem is how to know God. So everyone, all scholars, all educationists, all thinkers, they should concentrate now to this problem—how people will understand God? That will solve all of their problems. And we are pushing on this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, with this view, that let people understand what is God; then all other problems will be solved. So far we are concerned, you may take it or not. We have no problems, practically, because we are simply after God. We have no other business, so therefore we think we have no problem, practically. We have got about 102 centers, as big. Now our Los Angeles center . . . where is that picture? Haṁsadūta: Two hundred . . . Girl devotee: Mālatī has it. She is getting . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Bring that picture. Pradyumna: It is not here. She went to get it framed in the city. Prabhupāda: Oh. That . . . in each center we have got about 200 devotees—at least 50, minimum 50, highest 200—and we have got 102 centers. And mostly they are not Indians—they are Europeans and Americans, Canadians, whose standard of living is better than the Indians. But we are providing. We are providing them with place, with food, with car, with all comforts. But we have no problems. Kṛṣṇa, God, is providing us. So similarly, if we actually . . . actually we have to depend on God. It is artificially we are thinking that we can solve our problems. You cannot. *If you could solve your problem, then nobody would die. You have got the best medicine, best medical health. Why one man dies even after best medicine and best physician? What is your answer? Therefore unless God gives protection, your so*-called best physician, best medicine will not solve the problem. It is practical. Now at the present moment we have got the best physician and best medical treatment that nobody should die, so why they are dying? So how can you solve the problem of death? Sir Alistair Hardy: Well I'm afraid medicine hasn't solved all the problems. Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot solve these problems; *therefore you have to admit that you cannot . . . you may be advanced in so many things, but the real problem, as Bhagavad*-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. Now you are in a best . . . in the midst of the best nation. Now you are getting old; I am also getting old. This is a problem. I don't want to get old, but it is coming by force and giving me trouble. Now where is the solution of this problem? One is getting disease. Where is the solution of this problem? Nobody wants to die—where is the solution of the problem? So we cannot solve all these problems, it is simply . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: One cannot prevent . . . one cannot prevent getting old, I'm afraid. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Therefore this is a problem. And nobody wants to become old, but old age is coming. Old age is coming. So it is not possible the . . . the so many problems, material problems that you are facing. That is not possible. Just like this European people, they are facing with war every ten years or every fifteen years—First World War, Second World War—and they are trying to solve it. First of all there was League of Nation, you know that. That failed. Again this United Nation. What they are doing? They cannot solve; it is not possible. That we have to admit, that we have failed to solve all the problems. Then why you have failed? Because there is no God consciousness. If one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He will simply hover on the mental plane: "Ah, let me solve this problem." And when he fails, "All right, let me try this." When he fails, "All right, let me do." This is going on. Where is the solution? There is no solution; *simply mental speculation. The so*-called endeavor for solving the problems is simply mental speculation. It is not possible to solve without the grace of God. It is just like nowadays in India, there is great scarcity of rain—not only in India; every part of the world—and it will increase, increase. It is stated in the Bhāgavat that anāvṛṣṭi (SB 12.2.9): for want of rain, for want of foodstuff, and people will be taxed very much by the government. So one side famine and scarcity of rain, and other side government's operation for taxing. In this way people will be faced with so many problems, harassed, that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest and mountain, disgusted. Where is the solution to the problem in civilized world? People are being harassed more and more by taxation. Now what if there is no rain? What you could solve? What is in your hand? Revatīnandana: Just some time back, some people were talking to me about how there was a green revolution in India. The agriculture, they developed new grains and seeds, hybrids, for producing so much grains, and they said: "Now we have this green revolution, it will solve the problems of the underdeveloped countries." Now it is not raining, so there is no green. *Prabhupāda: Therefore you are dependent on rain. So Bhagavad*-gītā says, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Unless there is rain, how you can produce grains? It is not possible. So therefore ultimately you have to depend on God. (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Where is this attempt to perform sacrifices? That is gone. That is altogether gone. So how you can expect yajñād bhavati parjanyo ? These are the nature's law. If you do not admit the favor of the Providence . . . yajña means to satisfy the Supreme, Yajña. Kṛṣṇa's another . . . God's another name is Yajña. Yajñārthāt . So we should work for Kṛṣṇa, yajñād, yajñād bhavati . . .? Pradyumna: Yajñād bhavati parjanyo . Prabhupāda: Parjanyo . Then there will be regular supply of rain. And in Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's time it is said that parjanyaḥ . . . kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). We get all our necessities of life by this rainfall, and this rainfall is possible when there is performance of yajñā . So we are not following this, so how these problems can be solved? The real problem is therefore godlessness. They are defying God. *They are trying to solve all problems by their so*-called advancement of knowledge. But practically we see the so-called advancement of knowledge cannot solve any problems. The same example—that the advancement of knowledge, there is best physician, best medicine, then nobody should die. The death is there, the problem is there—then what is the use of this advancement? Therefore real problem is godlessness: they do not know what is God. Therefore all our endeavors should be engaged how to understand God scientifically. We do not say that you accept somebody as God blindly. No. That is not our . . . try to understand. There is a verse—what is that? No, I forget. That . . . idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥśrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22): by austerity, by education, by scientific advancement of knowledge, by everything, try to understand God. If you are scientist, you try to understand scientifically; if you are a philosopher, try to understand God philosophically. Because ultimate goal is God. That is the real problem. *So therefore my request to exalted personalities like you—because you are engaged in religious experience, research—so the research you may do, but real, we are giving the result of the research work: harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Everything is there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Unless there is God consciousness, all such research work will not give us any relief. So the scientists, the philosophers, the economists or politicians, everyone should concentrate. Let the politician understand politically God. There is everything there answered: how politically the administrative class, they can become God conscious, the members of Parliament—everything is there. Similarly scientists, they can also become God conscious; *philosophers, they can become God conscious. So that is required now, otherwise the so*-called advancement of knowledge or economic development . . . *There is no question of economic development, because after all, we are depending. If there is no rain, two, three years, five years if there is no rain, all economic development will be finished. So the rain is in the hands of God. We have to look forward, upward, when the rain is coming. Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Revatīnandana: Even now they are complaining that there is insufficient rainfall in England. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: They are putting signs on the buses, "Pray for rain." But will they pray to God for rain? They won't even pray for . . . Prabhupāda: Ultimately they have to pray. When there was war, Churchill asked all citizens to go to the church and pray; *similarly the Germans also, they prayed. Some of them, after their prayer, when the prayer was not fulfilled, they became atheist. Yes. They have taken God as order*-supplier. I declare war without sanction of God, and when there is reverse condition I pray to God, "Save me." Just see. God will not ask, "Did you declare the war consulting Me?" At that time there was no need of God. The politicians, by their whims, "All right, declare war." Sir Alistair Hardy: The whole of our work is directed towards increasing the knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: That is what we are setting out to do . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . by studying the action of God through the highest number of people. Prabhupāda: So in that endeavor, I think we can help you, if you really serious. We can help you. Sir Alistair Hardy: I'm hoping later on. But at the moment, we are collecting experiences from the Western world, but I am hoping to collect experiences from the East, too. The present High Commissioner for India . . . Prabhupāda: What High Commissioner of India does know? Sir Alistair Hardy: He's . . . Prabhupāda: You have to approach the real person. Sir Alistair Hardy: But he's very . . . he is interested in what we are doing. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be interested. That is official. Sir Alistair Hardy: He has offered to put me in touch with . . . Prabhupāda: If you . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: . . . a number of people in India, but I . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Tad*-vijñānā. The Vedic injunction is, You should approach one who knows. What this commissioner, High Commissioner, this commissioner, the politicians . . . useless. I can tell you frankly this is useless attempt. Revatīnandana: Approaching a politician for knowledge of God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh, no. But he is interested. Prabhupāda: He is interested; everyone should be officially interested. Sir Alistair Hardy: But I . . . Prabhupāda: What does he know about God? Revatīnandana: Official interest, he is saying. Prabhupāda: That is official interest. Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't think so. From what . . . Prabhupāda: If you are serious about . . . about this research work, you should approach somebody who knows God. Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, he's given a . . . he gave me a great, er . . . manifestation . . . er . . . manifesto produced by his father, I think, of yoga . Prabhupāda: What is this yoga ? Do you know what is this yoga ? Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't know what, er . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think by such yoga system you can understand God? Are you conversant with the yoga system? Sir Alistair Hardy: I don't know. It's not my, er . . . *Prabhupāda: This is an advertisement yoga , meditation. There is a science, regular science of God. You have to understand by that science. But if you do not know what is that science, it is not possible. Therefore it is a vijñāna. Vijñāna means science. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥśrotriyaṁ (MU 1.2.12). *The . . . we have discussed these points in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then the real science, if you want to know God, you have to know from God; otherwise you cannot know God. *Sir Alistair Hardy: That is exactly what we are trying to do, understand, from the manifestations of God in the experience of present*-day people. It is just what we are doing. Prabhupāda: No. Why manifestation? Why not directly from God? Why you are after manifestation? If there is direct you can approach . . . Sir Alistair Hardy: I think we are studying directly from God, actually. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is that such opportunity, why should you give up? This Bhagavad*-gītā is direct experience from God. If you study Bhagavad-gītā carefully, you get direct experience. *Sir Alistair Hardy: I think we can get it, too, from present*-day man. *Prabhupāda: Present*-day man, that's all right. But one who knows God, that is . . . you cannot understand the science of God from a storekeeper. That is not possible. He must be well conversant: tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). You see, that is direction: *Pradyumna: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So everything, any scientific method, we have to know from the person who knows it. So why manifestation? Just try to understand directly from God, Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa is accepted by all scholars, all saintly persons, past and present, the Supreme Lord: āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve (BG 10.13). (aside) Find out that verse, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). *So my request is that you try to—you are research scholar—you try to understand Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and I can help you, or our students can help you, if there is any difficulty. Here is the science of God, that is a fact. (aside) Read it. Pradyumna: *"Arjuna said: You are the supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Sir Alistair Hardy: This is just as Jesus or Paul, or the other Christians, have said just the same thing. I think it is all part of the same . . . it's the same manifestation. Pradyumna: But it's completely valid, whereas . . . whereas someone . . . it depends upon his perception of God, and that has to be measured according to certain standards. You can't . . . you have to . . . you say that someone will say: "Well, I have experienced something of God," but you have to measure his perception by some standard. And the standard that is in these śāstras , or scriptures, is an absolute standard . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- July 30, 1973, London (Conversation with reporter Satish Kumar from Resurgence Magazine) Prabhupāda: . . . things are there, how you can reject one and accept another? It must be properly utilized. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Just like if one has got money, he cannot . . . he can utilize it for good purposes, and he can utilize it for bad purposes. So money is not bad. It is bad when the purpose is bad. It is good when the purpose is good. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: Similarly hiṁsā , when it is used for . . . just like in Manu*-saṁhitā it is said that the murderer should be hanged. So this is also hiṁsā , to get a man hanged. But Manu-saṁhitā says that this kind of hiṁsā is necessary. Because the man who has committed murder, if he's hanged, then in this life all his sinful activities finished. Otherwise, from next life he has to suffer so many things. So it is the duty of the king to take his life so that he may be relieved from other sinful reaction. So according to śāstra, hiṁsā . . . ahiṁsā is good, but when there is necessity, hiṁsā is also good. Satish Kumar: Yes. When there is right hiṁsā , then it becomes a right action. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: And a right action is inherently inspired with love and devotion to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: And therefore it is no more hiṁsā . But when the devilish . . . Prabhupāda: And actually it is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Actually it is not hiṁsā , exactly, but . . . Prabhupāda: Just like father gives a slap. Satish Kumar: Yeah, it is not hiṁsā . Prabhupāda: It is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, the hiṁsā , so*-called hiṁsā , when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, that is not hiṁsā . That is love. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But when it is not directed by Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Then it is hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah. Then it is hiṁsā . And I am against that hiṁsā which is not directed by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yeah, that's all right, that's all right. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. And especially today in the society we are living in, nuclear age, where all the power of destruction in the hands of those who are not devotees of Kṛṣṇa is . . . Prabhupāda: That is hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: That is hiṁsā . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Yeah. Therefore we are trying to make how you can, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: That you have understood. That is my point. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That so*-called hiṁsā , when it is directed by Kṛṣṇa, is not hiṁsā . Satish Kumar: Yeah, exactly. I agree. That's, that's . . . Prabhupāda: The same example as I gave, gave you, that when the king condemns a murderer to death, it is not hiṁsā . It is doing good to him. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But only if the king is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No . . . king is . . . king means a devotee. Because the king did not remain devotee, now monarchy is abolished. King means Kṛṣṇa's representative, nara*-devatā . The king is supposed to act on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa's business is paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām ( BG 4.8). Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly, king's business is to give protection to the faithful and punish the unfaithful. Satish Kumar: But today's kings . . . Prabhupāda: Today's no . . . I'm speaking the principle. Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not. Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the king, exactly like God. Why? Because king is supposed to be representative of God. Satish Kumar: Yes. Supposed to be. *Prabhupāda: Our Vedic conception is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra , this catur-varṇa . It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa , whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa . Nowadays, that . . . such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as a śūdra , but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa . Satish Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You see? Satish Kumar: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king . . . it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "doctor" or "medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa , he must act as a brāhmaṇa . If one is claiming to be kṣatriya , he must act as a kṣatriya . Now, what are the qualification of brāhmaṇa , what are the qualification of kṣatriya , they are there already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So it is government's duty, that you are claiming. So everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya . Sva - dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . By quality. Guṇa - karma . By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra , a vaiśya is employed and engaged as . . . just like vaiśya. Vaiśya , it is said that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya - karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas , they are in the share market, speculating. Satish Kumar: Hmm. There are no more vaiśyas . (laughs) Exactly. Prabhupāda: Industrialist. Industrialist means śūdras . So if they're śūdras , why they should claim as . . . Satish Kumar: Vaiśyas . Prabhupāda: This is government's duty, to see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya ? Your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, to give protection to the cows." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big Birlas, big, big Dalmias. You see. Satish Kumar: Sitting quiet. (laughs) Yes. Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas . Nehru, he was a brāhmaṇa . What did he do as a brāhmaṇa ? But he was at the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy. Satish Kumar: Hmm. When such . . . when such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following their duty . . . Prabhupāda: This is, this is . . . this world is material world. And . . . (aside) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad, sit comfortably. Woman guest: It's too hot over there. Because of the fire. Satish Kumar: She's very hot. Prabhupāda: (aside) So, you can open this. I keep little water, rheumatic. Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: You can sit down near me. Devotee: Would you like a chair? Woman guest: No. Satish Kumar: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva - dharma , their true self . . . Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment. Satish Kumar: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Any moment. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But then what is the action for the . . . practical action, practical . . . to bring it back. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Practical action . . . if you give up . . . if a brāhmaṇa gives up his sva - dharma , then it becomes a varṇa*-saṅkara. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Kula - dharma . *(aside) What is that in the Bhagavad*-gītā , we were reading yesterday? Jāti - dharma , kula - dharma . *So they produce varṇa*-saṅkara. If one does not follow the jāti - dharma , the kula - dharma , then he comes to the category of the varṇa-saṅkara. Saṅkaro narakāyaiva (BG 1.41). So when a person born in brāhmaṇa family is not acting as a brāhmaṇa , he's varṇa-saṅkara. So when there are number of people varṇa-saṅkara class, then the whole society becomes hell, narakāyaiva. Śaṅkaro narakāyaiva . (aside) What is that? Read that. Pradyumna: "With the destruction of dynasty, the eternal family tradition is vanquished, and thus the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligious practice." *Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . So those who are responsible for giving up kula - dharma and jāti - dharma , and creating varṇa-saṅkara . . . varṇa-saṅkara . . . just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya , they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process, daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra . So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna . So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra . So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra ? Nobody. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Nobody. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ . Ka . . . in this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra . No brāhmaṇa , no kṣatriya , no vaiśya . All śūdras , or less than śūdra . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Pañcama . This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform them, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible; *it is Kali*-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they'll not accept the right path . . . just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders, they are saying, "Well, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted as God?" Even big, big leaders, they did not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle . . . you know better than me. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So, if big, big scholars say, when Kṛṣṇa says that man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . . . (BG 18.65), the scholars say: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." You see? If now, I can frankly say, if leaders like Dr. Radhakrishnan, Gandhi and others, they mislead people, then how the people will be in normal condition? This is the position of India at the present moment. *The leaders . . . andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are blind. They have no training. They are not in disciplic succession. They do not know what is what, and they are taking the part of leadership, then everything is spoiled. Jāti - dharma , kula - dharma . And they have created varṇa*-saṅkara . *Satish Kumar: Yes. Everybody is varṇa*-saṅkara. Prabhupāda: This is it. Therefore the only remedy is, This is the only . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only remedy for rectification all the misgivings which has come. Therefore any sane man, any thoughtful man, should try to understand the importance of this movement, and they should come and help. This is the . . . Satish Kumar: Hmm. But what . . .? Prabhupāda: It is most scientific. Satish Kumar: But what you are emphasizing is bhakti - yoga . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: But what I'm asking is how to bring the karma - yoga , the action, to transform the society, bring back into the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti- yoga in its preliminary stage is karma - yoga . yoga , yoga means connecting. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So karma , when you . . . Satish Kumar: yoga karma sukhośanām . Prabhupāda: Akarma sukhośanām . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are addicted to karma . Satish Kumar: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: So if you bring bhakti , karma - miśra*-bhakti , that is called karma - yoga . Similarly, you are addicted to speculation, jñāna . When you bring bhakti and mix with it, then it is jñāna-miśra-bhakti or jñāna - yoga . So these things are there. Just like karma - yoga : yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). This is karma - yoga . You are doing something, everyone is engaged to do something, but Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi . *Yat karoṣi : never mind, even if you are a thief, your business is stealing—you steal. Yat karoṣi means that includes everything. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi, kuruṣva tat mad*-arpaṇam. "Give it to Me. The result, give it to Me." karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu (BG 2.47). Satish Kumar: Mā phaleṣu. Prabhupāda: This is karma - yoga —when you do not take the result. Ah? You may do whatever you like, but if you, if the result, if you give to Kṛṣṇa, that is karma - yoga . Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah, but karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: This is the, the point where . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to work. Satish Kumar: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You see? Satish Kumar: But . . . so . . . if our responsibility is to act without attachment with the result, I accept, I agree with it. *Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa says that kuruṣva mad*-arpaṇam (BG 9.27). The result must be there. Satish Kumar: Yes. But that should be . . . Prabhupāda: So, if you do not take the result, who will take it? It cannot . . . Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Therefore it must be given to someone. So who is the perfect person who can take it? That is Kṛṣṇa. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So yat karoṣi , that is the . . . Arjuna, he was a fighter. He was a fighter, military man. So his business was to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti - yoga or karma - yoga , whatever you . . . Satish Kumar: Yeah. Yes. What I'm now asking is that what you are telling us is very important, that we must act for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: But Kṛṣṇa is telling to Arjuna where to act, and how to act, and what to act, and that is "Fight." And at that moment He is telling to fight the Kauravas. Now, we are confused here, that what is our fight? What is our fight? Prabhupāda: Our fight, it is not the same fight as Kurukṣetra. Satish Kumar: No, it's not same. Therefore we are in confusion, that what is our fight? Of course, we must surrender our . . . Haṁsadūta: He wants to know how he will be engaged. Who will tell him what to do? Prabhupāda: The Kṛṣṇa's representative will tell you. Kṛṣṇa is not there, but Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. So you have to ask the Kṛṣṇa's representative. Satish Kumar: So that's why I have come to you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: . . . to ask you. Prabhupāda: If you think me a representative of Kṛṣṇa, I can help you. (everyone laughs) Satish Kumar: Perhaps you can speak for the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, at least I'm directing all these boys. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: They're thinking, "And to become Kṛṣṇa's representative is very difficult thing." It is not very difficult. Satish Kumar: It is not difficult. Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa . . . who is Kṛṣṇa's representative? Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that: You understand Bengali? Satish Kumar: No. *Prabhupāda: He says that, "By My order, you become a guru ." "So what shall I do, sir? What is Your ājñāya , order?" That yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "Whomever you meet, you just speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken." That's all. So what is the difficulty? If we speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, exactly . . . therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without my interpretation, not nonsense. No. *Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): there is no more superior truth above. Truly speaking, that "Here is Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa. There is no more superior person or authority than Kṛṣṇa." So what is our difficulty? We are exactly repeating the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). We are saying the same thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). We are asking these people, "Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: "Don't bother with any other things." Kṛṣṇa says , man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching them that always think of Kṛṣṇa, always become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, always offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa. So where is our difficulty? There is no difficulty. But if we actually do this, then I am Kṛṣṇa's representative. Who is representative? *What the original master wants, if one does the same thing, he is representative. It is not difficult. But people will not do that. He'll try to avoid Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa's book Bhagavad*-gītā and interpret nonsensically and spoil the whole thing. This is going on. He's not ready to speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. He'll speak his own words on the authority of Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is going on. If you want to speak your own word, why you take Bhagavad*-gītā ? How much, ah, devilish mentality. You want to speak your own philosophy—speak. Why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā ? But that is going on. They take the advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and speaks their own nonsense things. They're not representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's representative is he who exactly speaks what Kṛṣṇa has spoken. It is not very difficult. So everyone can become Kṛṣṇa's representative, provided he speaks exactly like Kṛṣṇa. *Satish Kumar: Hmm. No, but . . . can I take you back to the point which is not clear to me? When you said that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), Kṛṣṇa is speaking in a context of a clear, defined action for Arjuna, whereas now that clearly defined action is not available to us. Prabhupāda: Why not available? Satish Kumar: 'Cause we don't know what is our action. Now, going to the . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, dharma means occupation. dharma is not translated as "religion." Satish Kumar: No, no. Prabhupāda: This is wrong translation. dharma means occupation. Satish Kumar: Activity? Prabhupāda: Activity, occupation. Satish Kumar: All activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says: "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it is . . ." *Satish Kumar: But He's saying sarva*-dharmān parityajya . . . (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Satish Kumar: . . . not sarva*-karmān parityajya . Prabhupāda: dharma means karma . dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa . . . Satish Kumar: But activity . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . how he can understand the Brahman? Guṇa - karma - vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: So this dharma , brāhmaṇa - dharma , kṣatriya - dharma , they are divided according to karma . You cannot avoid this karma . dharma means karma , activity. Brāhmaṇa , he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma - karma svabhāva*-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas . Brahma - karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya - karma svabhāva-jam . So dharma means this is sva - dharma . Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa , his dharma . Satish Kumar: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te . . . Prabhupāda: karmaṇi means that you are as you are . . . Satish Kumar: No, no . . . (indistinct) . . . evādhikāras te . (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Satish Kumar: 'Cause activity . . . *Prabhupāda: dharma means karma . dharma does not mean inactivity. Because it is said, brahma - karma svabhāva*-jam (BG 18.42). Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is karma . So brāhmaṇa's activity means brāhmaṇa . So that activity is karma . Ah? Yajana yājana paṭhana pāṭhana dāna pratigraha (SB 5.17.11 purport), these are brāhmaṇa's . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizen, to become in charitably disposed. Everything is described there: these are these kṣatriya's karma; these the brāhmaṇa's karma; these are the, eh, vaiśya's karma; these are the śūdra's karma . So sva - dharma means to execute the prescribed karma . That is sva - dharma . dharma karma . dharma means karma , but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa , you have to act as a brāhmaṇa . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya , you have to act as a kṣatriya . So acting means karma . How you can avoid karma ? Bhakti is also karma . Bhakti is also karma . Bhakti , what is this bhakti ? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma . So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock, offering maṅgala-ārati , and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , then taking their class and taking prasādam , then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana , for distributing book. *Whole day, twenty*-four hours, karma . So therefore outsiders, they cannot understand that, "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing. What kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti . They think bhakti means "Just close your eyes and make some murmuring sound, that is good." Bhakti is not like that. Satish Kumar: Bhakti is the quality . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma . Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was given the certificate— bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si : "You are My devotee." So everything is karma , whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity, what is the quality of activity. Yes. How you can live without being active? You are living being. That is not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of activity. That makes one karma - yogī , jñāna*-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī . Everywhere there is karma . Without karma there is nothing. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Can I ask you another . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma - miśra*-bhakti . It is not unalloyed bhakti . Satish Kumar: No, no. Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti , there is no karma . Satish Kumar: There's no karma . Yes. Prabhupāda: There's no karma . That is very high state. But originally . . . Satish Kumar: Akarma , then it comes akarma . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is very high state. But originally . . . Satish Kumar: Akarma , then it comes akarma . Prabhupāda: Ah, akarma . Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: No, more than akarma . Satish Kumar: Sannyāsa ? *Prabhupāda: More than a . . . sannyāsī is akarma , yes. Sannyāsī is also not akarma . Sannyāsa means . . . that is also described in Bhagavad*-gītā : anāśritaḥ karma - phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ (BG 6.1). That is also karma . Kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ sa sannyāsī. "It is my duty"—on this principle when one works, he is sannyāsī . He does not work for himself; he works for Kṛṣṇa. And that is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma - phalam . Because if you are doing something, there must be some result. But you do not take the result. Anāśritaḥ karma - phalam. Kāryam : it is my duty. Kāryam . karma karot . . . karma karoti yaḥ. That is karma . Sa sannyāsī . So how you can say in sannyāsa there is no karma ? karma is always there. But you have to see for what for this karma is being done. The end justify the means. What is the end of this karma ? So when the end is Kṛṣṇa, to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Satish Kumar: Yeah. But what is the meaning of akarma ? Prabhupāda: Akarma means that does not produce another karma . Or sometimes akarma means laziness. Satish Kumar: No, not (laughs) in the sense of *Gītā* . *Prabhupāda: karmaṇo hy api boddhavyam (BG 4.17). So a karma means, that is bhakti also. Akarma means, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra karma - bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Anyatra karma - bandhanaḥ : when you become bound by the result, the action of the karma , that is karma . And when you act yajñārthe , for Viṣṇu, for Kṛṣṇa, that is not karma , that is akarma . So you can see. It does not produce, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said: "Those who are engaged in devotional service, they're not producing any more karma ." Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. But then why there are three words, karma , vikarma , akarma ? There are three. Prabhupāda: That . . . vikarma means . . . karma means you act according to the injunction of the śāstra . That is karma . And vikarma means when you violate, violate the injunction of the śāstra . Devotee: Violate. Prabhupāda: Violate. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. "You should not do this." Just like in the śāstra it is said that you should not indulge in sinful activities. Satish Kumar: Hmm. That's the vikarma . *Prabhupāda: That is vikarma . If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra , then it is sinful, that is vikarma . And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma . karma , akarma , vikarma . Yes. So generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma . That is not vikarma . Vikarma , when you act against the principles of sinful activities . . . no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ duta yatra papas catur*-vidhaḥ (SB 1.17.38). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras . Illicit sex life. You cannot indulge in sex life without marriage; that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma; *you are becoming bound up, being entangled. Therefore bhakti is the safest platform, because you do not produce any more karma . Whatever karma you have to act, it is finished in this life. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Otherwise, beginning from ant up to the Brahmā, everyone is bound up by the reaction of karma . Satish Kumar: Hmm. Vi . . . but is it not like vasiṣṭhaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam ? Prabhupāda: Ah? Satish Kumar: Vasiṣṭhān karmān vikarmān ? Not like that? "Vi-" is generally used as to . . . a sort of . . . (indistinct) . . . to give the quality of the karma , quality of the action. Like vijñānam—jñānaṁ vijñānam; karmam vikarmam . So this a little . . . what is this root of the language? I don't . . . *Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is. Jñānam means theoretical knowledge, and vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life . . . just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña . *Yajñād bhavati parjanyo parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). These things are there. So everyone should act for yajña , Yajñeśavara. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya , never mind, whatever you are . . . everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Satish Kumar: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat*-toṣa-kāraṇam (CC Madhya 8.58). So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama - dharma . This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇas , that is animal society; everything is chaos. Satish Kumar: You want to ask anything? Woman guest: No. (aside) (whispering) My understanding is that you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa first, and then you know what to do. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), just to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Then everything is all right. And then Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi . He's taking charge. Then what is the anxiety? Just surrender, that's all. *Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But what happens, that some people have a social dimension, social*-political dimension, and have no spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But then it seems to me—I'm just asking—that we, when we are emphasizing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in danger of forgetting the social-political dimension. So how to bring this . . . Prabhupāda: You are thinking wrongly that we are not responsible. Why you are thinking like that? You are thinking wrongly. Kṛṣṇa did not take in politics, part? Then why you are thinking? *Satish Kumar: No, no, I'm not saying Kṛṣṇa did not take. I'm just saying that it seems, at least sometimes, it seems that people who emphasize the spiritual consciousness do not clarify enough . . . it is not clear enough—and I'm not saying it is not there, but it's not clear enough—the social*-political dimension, social action, political action, how we run our society in its practical terms. So it is not clear. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it will be clear. It is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa , this is the business of kṣatriya . So politics is the business of the kṣatriya . So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma ." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa . But if you act whimsically, then where is your surrender? And why do you become a brāhmaṇa ? Then it is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa, still, they have become leaders. Therefore whole thing is chaos. Satish Kumar: Chaos, yes. Yes. Now we are, Ann and myself and June . . . we are publishing a magazine called Resurgence . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: And . . . John Papworth came yesterday? Mahādeva: John Papworth was here a few days ago, yes. Prabhupāda: He is a very thoughtful man. I talked with him. Satish Kumar: Yes, he was editor before. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: Now he has become special advisor to President Kaunda in Africa. So we have taken it up to continue the magazine. Now I was talking—Mahādeva was also in it—but how we can bring this total understanding together? So we . . . because when we talk people outside, how to communicate this consciousness in simple language, so that they are not at first go, they are not . . . Prabhupāda: We are presenting . . . Satish Kumar: . . . they understand the way of communication. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are asking all these students . . . when I came first in America, in 1965, I simply asked them, "You chant with me, Hare Kṛṣṇa." They did it, and gradually everything has come. So where is the difficulty? (everyone laughs) Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. *Prabhupāda: If they chant, then they'll understand everything. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Everything is misgiving within the heart. So if the ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam , if the mirror of the heart is cleansed, then when the mirror is cleansed you can see your face correctly. Similarly, when all misgivings, all dirty things is cleared from the heart, you can see things as they are, correctly. Satish Kumar: In order to clear your heart you have to chant. Prabhupāda: That is it. Satish Kumar: Right. Woman guest: What about meditating? Prabhupāda: This is the best medicine, meditation. Woman guest: It's better than the other kind? Prabhupāda: When meditation . . . meditation, dhyāna , it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That is another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) When there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear, they also hear. Woman guest (2): What about people who believe in Jesus, God? I mean, what about Christians? It might not have the same effect on them. Devotee: But Kṛṣṇa is God, and Jesus is teaching exactly what Kṛṣṇa taught, so there is no difference to a person that has a pure heart. If we chant, all of us who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we've realized that Jesus Christ's teachings are fulfilled in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Woman guest (2): Oh, I see. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But Jesus said that he's son of God. So we say Kṛṣṇa is God. So what is the conflict? God must have a son, one or two? So he's also the son. Where is conflict? (laughter) Satish Kumar: No conflict. Woman guest (2): I am not sure. I think people might think there was a conflict. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Conflict is there when you disobey Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." All the Christians are simply killing. Where is a Christian? There is conflict. They will support: "This killing is this, this isn't that, this isn't that." They want to kill. That's all. There is conflict. If you actually follow the tenets of Christianity, there is no conflict. But you do not follow, at the same time you say you are Christian, there is conflict. It is clearly stated—I've asked so many Christian that "Why you kill?" Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." They want to support their killing process in so many ways. They'll never agree that, "Yes, Christ says not to kill. We should stop it." No. They want to support it by various interpretation. There is conflict. Clear word is there, "Thou shall not kill." And why they're maintaining so many slaughterhouses? Woman guest (2): But it's the same with Arjuna, wasn't it? he thought . . . Prabhupāda: But you are talking of Christianity. Don't talk of Arjuna now. (pause) If you talk of Christianity, don't take support from Arjuna. You talk of Christianity. It is clear statement, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? "Thou shall not covet." And illicit sex and illicit man and woman intermingling is going on. Who's stopping it? Satish Kumar: True. *Prabhupāda: Just see Arjuna—you are talking of Arjuna—before fighting, before killing, so many things he's getting clarified. Ah? Kathaṁ sva*-janaṁ hantuṁ . . . (indistinct) . . . (BG 1.36). Just see. "Why shall I kill?" So you have to understand why you should kill, why you should not kill. (aside) Hmm. What is that? Pradyumna: "O Janārdana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts?" Prabhupāda: He's thoroughly understanding—before killing. Not that . . . (indistinct) . . . he began to kill. No. So we are rather unhappy that in London I've seen thousands of churches practically closed. Nobody is going there. We are not happy to see this is happening. But why people are abstaining from going to the church, although there is Pope, and so many priests and other things? Why? Satish Kumar: It has become an institution, and there is no more religious . . . Prabhupāda: Life. Satish Kumar: . . . experience in life. *Prabhupāda: There is no life. A simple thing, that if you disobey the orders of Lord Christ, how you become a Christian, first of all? Where is your Christianity? Simply by rubber*-stamping "I'm Christian" you become a Christian, without following the tenets? Satish Kumar: Same as you were saying: Nehru was not a brāhmaṇa , but only because he was called brāhmaṇa . So . . . Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone. Satish Kumar: Everyone. *Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra , how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra*-sambhavaḥ. That's all. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says: So even one is śūdra , we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra . But Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ , even lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim , if he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra . There is remedy also. Satish Kumar: Even the śūdras can . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lower than śūdra . Why śūdra ? Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥye ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18), or even the pāpi, śudhyanti , they become purified if they accept the real representative of Kṛṣṇa, prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ . Everything is there in the śāstras . If you take advantage of the benefit of the śāstras , everything can be remodeled; *everything can be good. There is no cause of disappointment. But unfortunately, they'll not agree. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti (BG 16.23). One who is acting whimsically, without any reference of the authoritative śāstra , he'll never get success, na siddhim avāpnoti. Na sukham : neither happiness. And what to speak of going to the spiritual world? That is impossible. So we have to take the advantage of the instruction in the śāstra. Now, Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme authority by all the ācāryas . The molder of destiny of India's culture, all the ācāryas , Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya . . . Satish Kumar: Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya. They all accept Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). They accept, all. So how can you defy all these ācāryas and you become better than them? That is nonsense. Satish Kumar: But all these ācāryas interpret in different, different ways. Prabhupāda: No. No. Satish Kumar: No? *Prabhupāda: On the principle, they never. Just like Śaṅkarācārya and Rāmānujācārya. He's impersonalist, personalist, but both of them accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You'll find from their notes, comments in Bhagavad*-gītā . Śaṅkarācārya, although he is impersonalist, he says, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt : "Nārāyaṇa is beyond this cosmic manifestation. He's transcendental." That means he says He's person. Nārāyaṇa, as soon as Nārāyaṇa, the Personality of Godhead. So we have nothing to touch in a spiritual understanding. He's talking of the material understanding. His philosophy . . . he started the philosophy brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā . Satish Kumar: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Prabhupāda: So he wanted to stop these material activities. Jagan mithyā. Śaṅkarācārya never advocated for nationalism, for starting schools or college or hospital . . . never. Why? Why should he do? If we say jagan mithyā , then why should we bother all these things? Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So who is following Śaṅkarācārya? And they say that, "We are followers of Śaṅkarācārya," and they are engaged . . . Śaṅkarācārya follower means he must become first of all sannyāsī , then talk anything else. So who is taking . . . going to do that? Satish Kumar: And all those Śaṅkara Maṭha and Śaṅkarācārya's various places in India don't live as jagat was mithyā . (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, jagan mithyā . . . we don't say jagan mithyā . Satish Kumar: No. Prabhupāda: We Vaiṣṇavas, why should I say jagan mithyā ? If God is truth, what is created by Him, that is also truth. That is also truth. Because Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca, bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). Me, "My." So why shall I take Kṛṣṇa's things as false? If Kṛṣṇa is truth, His things are also truth. So we don't take that this material world is false. We don't say. *Our philosophy is that this material world may be temporary, but because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it can be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. That is karma - yoga , bhakti - yoga . Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari*-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Just like here is a microphone, here is a tape recorder. Now it is material. And if we say, "No, no, no, we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot touch this material thing . . ." We don't say like that. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ . Everything has connection with Kṛṣṇa, so why shall I call it as material? Parityāga . This is condemned by Rūpa Gosvāmī: The mumukṣu , the Śaṅkarites, they are after salvation. They give up this world. Satish Kumar: He who wants liberation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Mumukṣu . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mumukṣu . So this mumukṣu , they're giving up these material things, but they do not know there is connection with, ah, hari*-sambandha. *Satish Kumar: Yes, hari*-sambandha. Prabhupāda: They do not know this art. Satish Kumar: Kṛṣṇa connection, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Now people know only "French Connection." They've forgetten Kṛṣṇa connection. (laughs) Yes, very true. Prabhupāda: But we see everything has got Kṛṣṇa connection. Therefore we utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Just like you're talking about Kṛṣṇa, it is being recorded. So it is useful for Kṛṣṇa's service. Why shall I give it up? Because the aeroplane is there, therefore my preaching has been easier. In every year I am wandering all over the world twice, thrice. Because if you use aeroplane. So why shall I give it up? It is giving me facility to preach my Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why shall I give it up, "It is mithyā "? Just like the Jains, they do not ride on car, but if by going in a car I can go and preach very swiftly, and come back again, why shall I give up this car? *So our philosophy is not like that. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. It is yukta-vairāgya . We have no attachment for all these things. We are sitting in this palatial building, that's all right. But you can talk these things underneath a tree. But if I sit down underneath a tree, nobody will come to me. (laughter) Just see. So why shall I do that? This is our philosophy. *Yukta*-vairāgya. After all, you have to practice vairāgya . Not under attachment. But in connection with Kṛṣṇa nonattachment is required. Otherwise this nonattachment will not stay. Just like this, now you are talking of mithyā , how do they consider mithyā . Because this artificial nonattachment will not stay. Therefore, they say it is mithyā , but they are accepting it, under a different name—"Now let us start this school, now let us start this hospital . . ." They're coming to the mithyā platform under some disguise of philanthropy activities. If it is mithyā , why you are starting a school? Satish Kumar: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa . Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting a school the government is there, public is there. Why you . . . that means brahma satya you could not understand; *you are coming to the school*-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satya. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this. Give me some chanda (charity)" That's all. "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma . . . jagat is mithyā , why you are coming again to this mithyā platform? Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. So detachment is there. Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required. Satish Kumar: Anāsakta . *Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna*-vairāgya . *Satish Kumar: Hmm. The jñāna*-vairāgya. *Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna*-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti - yoga . Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti - yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo . . . janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys. Satish Kumar: Quick detachment. Prabhupāda: Ah? Immediate . . . Satish Kumar: Instant, instant, āśu vairāgya. Prabhupāda: Āśu vairāgya. They're attached to so many things. Now these young boys, they never ask me that "Give me some money; I shall go to the cinema, I shall smoke," or "I shall go to the club." They're all young men. Why? Janayaty āśu vairāgyam . They have kicked out all these things. Practically you can see. Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Or if you ask them, "Let us go to cinema," they'll never go, even at your expense. (laughter) This is vairāgya . They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. They do not want anything except Kṛṣṇa. These boys, young boys, from twenty to thirty years old, they have got to enjoy so many things, especially in this country, in the Western countries. How they have given up? Jñāna*-vairāgya. Janayaty āśu. Satish Kumar: Vairāgya , yes. Prabhupāda: Āśu , "very immediate." Satish Kumar: Hmm. Instant. Prabhupāda: Instant. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: So bhakti - yoga is so powerful. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti - yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam . . . (SB 1.2.7). *Satish Kumar: Is this in the Gītā , in Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: No, in *Bhāgavatam* . Satish Kumar: *Bhāgavatam* , yes. Prabhupāda: This is practical. Big, big politicians, they are sticking to their position up to the point of death. Even Gandhi, unless he was fired, he could not give up. Satish Kumar: But he was not in power or position. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, could not give up the politics. I wrote Gandhi that, "You have so much respect now. Now you have got sva*-rāja , you give up this business. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā . People will hear you." Before starting this Movement, long ago, I wrote him a letter. Satish Kumar: But he was praying . . . he was going to pray Hare Kṛṣṇa. He was devotee. Prabhupāda: He was for political emancipation. Satish Kumar: Hmm? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to discuss, but the thing is that . . . Satish Kumar: (laughs) Prabhupāda: . . . these politicians, they do not grow vairāgya , even up to the point of death. Satish Kumar: Yes, true. Prabhupāda: I've seen Jawaharlal Nehru, Panth . . . they stuck to their position up to the point of death. Neither they did know that there is necessity of vairāgya . But Vedic philosophy says . . . all the ācāryas , they're all vairāgīs , either Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, they're all sannyāsīs . Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All vairāgīs . Even Jesus Christ, he was a vairāgī . Even Lord Buddha, vairāgī . This is required. But where is the vairāgya ? They're simply attached to these material activities, and they're talking of high, high things. Their preliminary things is not finished, vairāgya . This is the first step, vairāgya, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syat (SB 11.2.42). *That is sarva*-dharmān parityajya. This is vairāgya . Satish Kumar: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya means vairāgya (BG 18.66). Satish Kumar: Yes, means vairāgya . Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, we are embarrassed with so many dharmas —social dharma , political dharma , national dharma , international dharma , this dharma , brāhmaṇa - dharma , śūdra - dharma , so many. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says sarva - dharma . Satish Kumar: All of them. *Prabhupāda: All give up. This is vairāgya. Jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. The bhakti - yoga means, jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya there must be. (aside) Can you find that verse? (break) Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: Paś . . . tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna*-vairāgya-yuktayā. Jñāna and vairāgya . Without jñāna-vairāgya you cannot make any spiritual advancement. Then? Pradyumna: Paśyanty ātmani cātmānam . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. *Pradyumna: . . . bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. *Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā śruta*-gṛhītayā. Śruta-gṛhītayā : by hearing from authority. Śruta. Gṛhītayā. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā . This is the process. Tac chraddadhānā munayo jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā, paśyanty ātmānam ātmani, śruta-gṛhītayā . . . bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā (SB 1.2.12). This is the process. Satish Kumar: By devotion, by listening, you receive and see the self . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: . . . in himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, within the self. Satish Kumar: Yes. Ātmani ātmānam. (break) Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Pradyumna: "The Absolute Truth is realized in full by the process of devotional service to the Lord Vāsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead . . ." *Prabhupāda: This is confirmed in Bhagavad*-gītā . Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Never says by jñāna mām abhijānāti or by karma mām abhijānāti. Satish Kumar: Only bhakti , yes. Prabhupāda: Go on. *Pradyumna: ". . . who is the full*-fledged Absolute Truth. Brahman is His transcendental bodily effulgence, and Paramātmā is His partial representation. As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. There are four different types of living beings: the karmīs , the jñānīs , the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental. The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person. The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the Absolute Person. And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the Absolute Person." Satish Kumar: Who are those three, jñānīs . . .? Prabhupāda: Jñānīs, yogīs . . . Satish Kumar: And karm . . . Prabhupāda: Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs . . . Satish Kumar: And bhaktīs . Prabhupāda: So karmīs are not transcendentalist. They're materialists. But jñānīs, yogīs and bhaktas , they're transcendentalist. Satish Kumar: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are . . . Satish Kumar: Why? Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute. Satish Kumar: I see. They're intellectual. Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization. Satish Kumar: Ah. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from the material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogīs . They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. And the first class are the bhaktas . They talk personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti . Satish Kumar: Hmm. You feel the presence. Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking. Satish Kumar: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhaktīnī ? Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee . . . she was a devotee. Satish Kumar: Yes. She had this quality of presence. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Satish Kumar: Yes. Direct dialogue. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī"? Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think that you people, you can understand this philosophy very nicely and do good to the people. What is the name of your paper? Satish Kumar: Resurgence . Prabhupāda: Resurgence . Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And that gentleman I talked with, he was also very intelligent, John. So this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because we are . . . in the jñānīs , they are also in the third grade, so how much the position of the bhaktas ? That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi , "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā : immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. *They have nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati . Then he can see everyone on the equal level, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . Then, mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta , then he can begin bhakti . This is the position of the bhaktas —the real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas , unalloyed bhaktas . Bhaktas , they have got three stages— kaniṣṭha, madhyama and uttama . Just, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī , not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. It's a very high stage, too, reach. Prabhupāda: How long you are here, in London? Satish Kumar: I have been on and off for two, three years. Prabhupāda: Ah. Satish Kumar: And I will stay two or three more years. Prabhupāda: So, you are family man? Satish Kumar: Yes, this is my wife. Prabhupāda: You're married here. Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Children? Satish Kumar: One child. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Satish Kumar: And we have called our child Mukti. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. (everyone laughs) But another thing . . . (laughter) Rūpa Gosvāmī says, bhukti*-mukti-piśācī yāvat hṛdi vartate katham bhakti-sukham ātra (CC Madhya 19.176). Manifested, like that. That so long the piśācī . . . piśācī , you know? Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: The piśācī of bhukti and mukti . Bhukti means karmī's business, "I shall enjoy." Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Bhukti . And mukti means "I shall become one with the Supreme." So these two things are described as piśācī . Satish Kumar: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Ah, piśācī is witch. *Prabhupāda: Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī yāvad hṛdi vartate . Satish Kumar: "As long as . . .?" Prabhupāda: "So long these two piśācīs are there within the heart, how one can enjoy the company of bhakti ?" Satish Kumar: Ah? But if you are one with the perfect one, you cannot be one with the perfect one without bhakti . Prabhupāda: Yes. Satish Kumar: Therefore, bhukti and mukti do not come together. From bhukti you have to go to bhakti , and then you can . . . Prabhupāda: You have to go to mukti , and then bhakti . Just as I explained: Satish Kumar: Ah. *Prabhupāda: So after being mukta . The bhakta is already mukta . That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā : *So a bhakta is already brahma*-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). So he hasn't got to ask for mukti . He's already mukta . Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says, *And dharmārtha*-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Dharmārtha-kāma , this is karmī's position. And mokṣa is mukti's position. So he says that "If I've got unflinching devotional attitude upon You, my Lord, then mukti is at my door, with folded hands. And this dharmārtha-kāma , they're at my command." Simply by bhakti . The people are after dharma , artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90), so these four things become at the order of a bhakta. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān dharmārtha-kāma-samaya-pratīkṣāḥ. Devotee: Prasādam . *Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). Satish Kumar: (aside) Please . . . But calling kṛṣṇārpaṇam , and calling mukti with bhukti piśācī is a rather strong expression. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Just try to understand what is the bhakta's position. They can use strong word against mukti . Satish Kumar: Yes, yes, they can. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Satish Kumar: The attachment is bhukti , materialistic attachment, and mukti . . . (break) I was very impressed with the account, how . . . Prabhupāda: This will be New Gokula. Satish Kumar: New Gokula. Hmm, hmm, it's very good. Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā . . . Pradyumna: New Gayā . . . Prabhupāda: . . . New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. (pause) You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politician of India, they wanted the . . . from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some . . . always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So, so far this Movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a Movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical. Satish Kumar: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power. Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas . Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So India cannot be happy being guided by the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ . It is not possible. This request I made to Gandhi that, "You are . . ." People accepted him as a spiritual man all over the world. So if Gandhi would have taken this Movement sincerely and scientifically, it would have grown thousand times. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. But then what Gandhi said? Did he reply to your request? Prabhupāda: No. Satish Kumar: No. Hmm. Prabhupāda: But it did not go to his hand; of the hands of the secretary. They thought, "What is this nonsense propaganda? Now let us become prime minister." That's all. (laughs) Satish Kumar: Yes. But how problems of India, like poverty . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Satish Kumar: Like poverty, and this lack of balance between rich and poor. How these problems can be solved? *Prabhupāda: That, that . . . Gandhi wanted to solve it, but you rejected. Gandhi wanted it to . . . village organization. He started that Wardha Ashram. But you have rejected. What Gandhi can do? That was good proposal—to remain satisfied in one's own place. That was Gandhi's proposal that, "Don't go to the city, town, for so*-called better advantage of life. Remain in your own home, produce your food and be satisfied there." That was Gandhi's policy. The economic problem he wanted to solve by keeping cows, by agriculture, by spinning thread. "You want food, shelter and cloth? Produce here, and remain here. Don't be allured by the capitalists and go to cities and be engaged in industries." But Jawaharlal Nehru wanted, overnight, to Americanize the whole India. That is the folly. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Congress side, the followers of Gandhi should have followed Gandhi's principle—from political point of view. Village organization. But they won't do that. Devotee: (to guests) Some kṣīra ? Satish Kumar: Oh! Prabhupāda: That's all. Don't give more. (pause) They actually, by destroying the Manchester mill owners, Gandhi gave opportunity to the Ahmedabad mill owners. And the consumers, instead of purchasing Manchester cloth at one eight per pair, now they're purchasing at thirty rupees per pair. Satish Kumar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: This is advantage. I know. My father had cloth business. The Manchester cloth, very nice cloth—one rupee six annas per pair, retail sale. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Hmm. Now same thing for thirty rupees. Prabhupāda: Just see. And where the money is going? To the Ahmedabad capitalists. That's all. Satish Kumar: Hmm. Yes. Prabhupāda: So frying pan. From frying pan to the fire. Satish Kumar: (laughs) Yes. Very true. Prabhupāda: Everything is due to lack of God consciousness. Satish Kumar: Quite true. And therefore nothing is working. Prabhupāda: No. (pause) Satish Kumar: And not going by car, as you said. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And you are not plucking your hairs? Satish Kumar: I was plucking. Eighteen times, all these hair. Two times in the one year, plucking all hair. Devotee: The whole head, you pull your hair? Satish Kumar: Whole head, yes. It's extreme form of a . . . Devotee: Austerity. Satish Kumar: Ah? Devotee: It's an austerity. Satish Kumar: Yes. And then I came to . . . I left it, and came to Benares, and . . . Prabhupāda: So when you joined this Sarvodaya movement? At Benares? Satish Kumar: Yes. I was meet . . . I met Vinoba Bhave, and . . . Prabhupāda: He's still living? Satish Kumar: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is his philosophy? *Satish Kumar: His philosophy is . . . he is a bhak . . . a devotee, I think. He is very much a devotee. But he is also preaching what Gandhi was preaching, for village organization and simple living and producing food and clothes in the village, and not going to a city. This is his principle, on the economic scale. And on the spiritual and religious, he's a brahma*-vidyā . He's seeking brahma-vidyā . And he has, in Paunar, Brahma-vidya Mandir. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Satish Kumar: So he is . . . he is a follower of Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Mukti, bhukti. Satish Kumar: Ah? Prabhupāda: Mukti . Satish Kumar: Mukti , yes. Prabhupāda: Piśācī . Satish Kumar: Hmm? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Bhukti*-mukti-piśācī . Satish Kumar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . of men. Bhukti and mukti . So they have manufactured so many "isms," bhukti *-ism and mukti -ism. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Give up all these 'ism.' Simply take surrender unto Me, that's all." This is real love. Satish Kumar: Yes. To abhi . . . (So now . . .) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Satish Kumar: Agya . . . (I shall leave . . .) Prabhupāda: Phir aiye. (Please come again.) Satish Kumar: Ha. Chaliye. (Surely. (aside) Let us go.) (end) Conversation -- August 3, 1973, London (Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother, Mrs. Critchley and Jesuit Priest) Prabhupāda: The aeroplane botheration (sound of aeroplane flying over) was not in Switzerland. They do not come there for fear of rising . . . Mother (Mrs. Critchley): They fly higher. Prabhupāda: . . . peaks. Peaks. Jesuit Priest: Mountains. Prabhupāda: So they don't come there. Mother: No, no. Prabhupāda: That was the only place in the world there was no such sound. Otherwise, everywhere. In America we have got so many temples. Even in West Virginia, hilly tract, there is also aeroplane. But less sound. Here it is near London, there must be. Yes. Jesuit Priest: Have you met Mother Teresa? Prabhupāda: Who is Mother Teresa? Mahādeva: She's a Christian mystic. Revatīnandana: She's a Christian nun, and she has a mission in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. Saint Theresa? Revatīnandana: No, Mother Teresa. She's living there now. Jesuit Priest: She's an Albanian nun who works in India and is . . . and has captivated the whole world just by the fantastic work she's done and is doing amongst the down, the outcastes and the desperately poor in the cities of India, particularly in Calcutta. And she's got disciples, young men, young women, joining her, where most of the other religious orders are desperately short. And the youth is being captivated by her, and they can't cope with the numbers wanting to join. And she was given a big speech in the Guild Hall in London and was the first person presented with an enormous sum of money by the Duke of Edinburgh, voted by the World Council of Churches as the outstanding religious person in the world. And people at her speech who heard, it brought the audience to its feet. And all she said in her speech was nothing more except "Love, love, love, love. Just go on giving and look for nothing back," which made an enormous impact, probably the greatest impact that anybody's making at present, in the world at present. Mother: How old is she? About eighty? Jesuit Priest: No, seventy . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . satisfied to remain in the village. That is the defect of the modern civilization. Mother: In India, you mean. You're talking of India now. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Mother: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Mother: Yes. What about India? I mean, do they leave the villages? Prabhupāda: India, actually, they do so. Mother: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The villagers, they have cows and land. That is sufficient for their economic problem. But the industrialists, they are alluring them, "To give more money, come here." So they are going to the cities. And the food production in the village is neglected. And therefore the food grain price is rising. Actually, everyone should be engaged to produce food, but the modern set*-up of civilization is that few people are engaged in producing food, and others are eating. They are offering . . . they are artificially getting money. So they are offering paper, "Here is ten dollar," although it is a paper, cheating. And they are captivated by cheating. They, they are thinking, "I have got now hundred dollars." What is this hundred dollar? It is paper. So some people are cheating and some people are being cheated. This is the society. Mother: Yes. But I think one has to be clever enough not to let people cheat you. Prabhupāda: Clever means that he must stay in his own land. He should not be cheated by the paper and go to the city. Mother: But we have to teach our young to be able to define between those who cheat and those who . . . be able to tell people who . . . Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating . . . Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way. Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world. Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God. Mother: I see he's happy. But, you know, he came from a very happy home. So he should be happy, shouldn't he? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Very happy home, brothers and sisters. And we've all been very happy. And I hope he will remain happy. Prabhupāda: He's still happier. Mother: Yes, I can see. Prabhupāda: He was happy; now he's happier. That is the difference. Mother: Yes. Oh, I don't think he's happier. (laughter) You are? I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: You are not happier. Mother: I didn't think it was possible. Prabhupāda: Because your son has come here, you may not be happier. But he is happier. Mother: Oh, you're saying this. I'm not saying this. I'm very disappointed that he is not continuing with education. I'm not sorry that . . . I'm happy for his happiness, wherever he is. Prabhupāda: But what is the . . . what is the purpose of education? Mother: You are a cultured man. You're educated. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Did you not learn . . .? Who gave you the talent to translate your Vedic scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Who gave you the talent, Father? Prabhupāda: No, I'm asking that what is the best part of education? So far my school, college education is concerned, that is not being used here. Mother: Oh, but you're cultured. You, in your old age, are getting tremendous comfort from being able to read and understand what the world is doing, the goodness of your books, and you have . . . you're able to understand the spiritual way of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . Mother: If you couldn't . . . if you hadn't been educated, Father, well, how would you be able to have . . .? Prabhupāda: No, education is required. Mother: Now, I, I, I don't . . . I am so happy that my son is happy, truthfully. But I am very distressed . . . and little boys, don't laugh, because this is serious. Um, I am very distressed that none of these boys continue their education. What is going to happen to them when they are like you, when they're older, they have no talents? Prabhupāda: But your educational system, in the Western countries, the . . . you have got big, big universities. Why the university students becoming hippies? Mother: Oh, well, there're always a certain amount becoming hippies, in America, anywhere. But we must . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Mother: But we must develop . . . Prabhupāda: I think the college students, university students, they're all hippies. Mother: Yes, but we must develop the good ones that have talent. We must develop them. You have the power to give these boys . . . Prabhupāda: I mean to say that if the chance of education is there . . . in India there is no such big, big universities, facilities, but in your Western country you have got nice universities, nice teaching system. Why the result is hippie? Mother: Oh, but you . . . we're talking of you. You have got the power. But people follow you because they believe in you. So you have the power to educate them. And you're not hippies, are you? Prabhupāda: My point is that this simple . . . this education for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, this sort of education will not satisfy. Mother: Well, you're educated, you see. Prabhupāda: No, I am educated. Mother: Yes, but how many of these are? Prabhupāda: But I am not educated only on this platform—eating, sleeping and sex life and defense. I am educated in a different platform. Mother: But you, aren't you translating your books still? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Mother: Isn't that a great joy, a great joy to you? *Prabhupāda: That's . . . for translating of books it does not require . . . of course, it requires when the purport of the translation is given. Otherwise . . . real thing is culture. That education is culture. Simply money*-making education for maintaining this body, that education will not satisfy any more. Just like I told you, that despite all arrangements of education, why the young men are turning to be hippies? That is my question. Mother: Oh, but not your followers. Your followers are not being hippies, people who follow you. Therefore you've got the people who you could help to become cultured like you. Prabhupāda: So my father educated me in a different way. Therefore I have come to this stage. My father never allowed me even to drink tea. Mother: Well, I'm disappointed in you. I came to see you because I felt that, being so cultured, that you would want all your boys to have this culture and to have this . . . to have the best . . . Revatīnandana: We've got, we've got this culture. Mother: Oh, but you haven't, you see. You're all, you're all young boys . . . Revatīnandana: No, your culture, your culture we don't have. Mother: . . . but you're not mature yet. Revatīnandana: But the culture that he has, he's giving to us. Mother: Yes, but you're not mature. It takes years to become mature. Hurt, pain, happiness, everything together . . . you find God? Yes, I've found God. We all . . . I feel very close to God, and I feel very happy. But I would also still wish to be educated. And fortunately, I was given the chance to have an education. Prabhupāda: Education means to know God. Mother: And I don't misuse it. *Prabhupāda: That is education. Our Vedic culture, the high*-class men is called brāhmaṇa . Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa , you know that. Mother: Brāhmaṇa , yes. Prabhupāda: So who is a brāhmaṇa ? Who knows God, he is called brāhmaṇa . Therefore culmination of education is to understand God. That is education. Otherwise, to get education how to nicely eat, how nicely sleep, how nicely have sex life and how to defend, this education is there even in the animals. The animals also, they know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life and how to defend. Mother: Yes. It seems to worry you, this sex life. I mean, we, we don't take . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I'm not worried. Mother: . . . any notice if . . . it fits into its place. Prabhupāda: This is also necessary. This is also necessary. Mother: It fits into the place in my life or our life. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is also necessary. Mother: Yes. It doesn't worry us at all. Prabhupāda: But these four type of branches of education is not sufficient for human being. A human being, above all this education, must have the knowledge how to love God. And that is perfection of life. Mother: Yes, well, Michael was taught that when he was very small. The Jesuits saw to that. Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Mother: The Jesuits certainly did. Prabhupāda: So to understand God or how to love God, there is religious system. In every civilized human society—it doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muhammadanism or Buddhism—the aim . . . religious system is there in human society besides the education of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is there in the animal society. So a human being is distinct from the animal when he has education how to understand God and how to love Him. That is perfection. Mother: Well, you've got a good tape there now, haven't you? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mother: You've got a good tape there now. Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is now wanting. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not depriving people of their education. You get education how to eat, how to sleep, and that's all right. But side by side, you take education how to know God and how to love Him. That is our proposition. Mother: Yes. I agree with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes, I agree with you every time. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you stop all this education. No. Mother: No, I don't agree with you there. No, Father, no, no. No, no. Prabhupāda: We don't say. Mother: No, I think they must . . . Prabhupāda: You can go on with your industries. You can go on with your university. But side by side, you become competent to know what is God and how to love Him. Then your life is perfect. Mother: Oh, a lot of . . . I could mention a lot of names that still very close to God and brilliant men in science. Where would we be without our scientists, without our doctors, medicine? They all have to go to university and get a degree before they . . . Prabhupāda: That I say. You get. Mother: Yes, but we need them. Prabhupāda: You get. Mother: Yes, well, then some of your boys could be doctors. Prabhupāda: But simply to becoming doctor at a medical science will not save me. Unfortunately, they do not believe in the next life. Mother: Oh, yes, they do. I go to . . . I had a doctor who came to church—and Michael knows him—every Sunday, a very good man. Prabhupāda: Mostly. I have spoken with many educated persons. In Moscow I was talking with Professor Kotovsky. He said: "Swāmījī, after finishing this body, everything is finished." But he's a big professor. Generally, even they do believe next life, they do not believe it very seriously. If we actually believe there is next life, then we must be prepared, "What kind of next life I am going to have." Mother: Yes, well, Father . . . *Prabhupāda: Because there are 8,400,000 forms of life. The trees are also life, the cats and dogs, they are also life. And there are higher, intelligent persons in the higher planetary system, they are also life. The worm in the stool, that is also life. So, calculating all of them, there are 8,400,000 species of life. So if I am going to have next life . . . tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ ( BG 2.13). We have to change this body to another body. So our concern should be, "What kind of body I am going to get next." Mother: I agree for some people to . . . you especially, to think of this because you are a leader of your Vedic religion. But for everybody to do that, where would we be? We couldn't all sit down and think all the time. Prabhupāda: But where is that education? Mother: But we . . . you can also work and think. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, where is that education in the university to prepare the student for the next life? Mother: Oh, but he must fit it in. Jesuit Priest: All the Catholic Universities all over the world are doing it. That's our main purpose, is to teach the young man and the young girl the success in this world, but above all . . . Prabhupāda: Then the next question . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And borrowing Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and etern . . . to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. *And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well*-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced . . . I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that . . . Prabhupāda: So . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . looked after me, I wouldn't be here this afternoon. Prabhupāda: So next life, how it will be ascertained? What kind of body I am going to next life? Jesuit Priest: I don't think it matters very much. I couldn't care less what's happening after I'm dead. All I know, that it's not annihilation. I'm going to be joined with Almighty God. Prabhupāda: No, it cannot be blind. Mother: We're going to Almighty God. That's all. Jesuit Priest: Not that I want another life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: We're going to Almighty God when we die. We don't have to worry. Jesuit Priest: That's in His hands. Prabhupāda: So what is the qualification? Mother: We know. We . . . Prabhupāda: Everybody is going to God? Mother: Yes. Everybody who believes in God. Yes. And leads a good life, does their best in this world. And that is truth for me. Prabhupāda: Then the question comes: What is the good life? Jesuit Priest: Obeying the commandments of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if the commandment is "Thou shall not kill," if somebody kills, so that is good life? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. Father, you're being a bit unfair. It isn't . . . interpretation, "Thou shalt not kill," thou shalt not unjustly take away life. If a man walks in this afternoon through those bushes with a revolver, I have every right . . . I'm not saying I'm going to do it, but I have every right to defend myself against that unjust aggressor. And if I kill him . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can, you can protect yourself . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . that is justified. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . from the aggressor, but when you kill innocent animal, what is the reason? Jesuit Priest: Oh, well, then . . . yes. Well, again, that's got to be interpreted. We wouldn't be able to . . . what foo . . . how would we live on food? How do we live if we don't eat? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: How we are living? Jesuit Priest: Well, I don't know . . . Prabhupāda: We don't kill animals. Jesuit Priest: I don't know what your food is, but . . . Mother: No, but you have a vegetarian diet . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: . . . which is . . . Jesuit Priest: Well, all right. Mother: A lot of people have that. Prabhupāda: But that is not killing. Jesuit Priest: No, but . . . by, fa . . . er, look at it this way. You've just said a few minutes ago there are eight million different kinds of life. Would you agree that the potato, the cabbage . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . and what have you also has a life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Because there's vegetative life, there's sensitive life, there's rational life . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jesuit Priest: . . . there's supernatural life, and there's a life of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: All right. And therefore—I'm not being facetious—when you boil those potatoes, you are taking away the life of that potato. Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy? That you can take any life? Jesuit Priest: But you said: "Thou shall not kill." Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. "Thou shall not kill," that's all right. Jesuit Priest: But you kill the potato. Prabhupāda: Now, suppose there is potato and there is your child. So would you like to kill your child in preference of potato? Mother: No, no. Jesuit Priest: You've not answered my question. Prabhupāda: Why this discrimination? Jesuit Priest: Why you've not answered my question? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering you, that you are to kill, but you have to discriminate what kind of killing you shall do. Jesuit Priest: Well, I've just said that. I gave the example of the chap who comes to you with a revolver. I can maybe protect myself. You said . . . you're implying . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. When somebody comes with a revolver, you defend. That is another thing. But if somebody's innocent, why you should kill? Jesuit Priest: And I say I shouldn't. God said: "Thou shalt not kill." Prabhupāda: Then why you are killing animals? Jesuit Priest: Well, you're doing it when you eat your potatoes. Prabhupāda: No, the potato is not animal. Jesuit Priest: It's a vegetable, life. Prabhupāda: No. Jesuit Priest: It starts with a little tiny seed. That's life. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Jesuit Priest: It grows. Prabhupāda: Potato is not animal. It is fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: It is a fruit. Jesuit Priest: Is that tree alive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Has it got life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Are you doing anything wrong when you cut it down . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . to provide . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: . . . to provide . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Jesuit Priest: You are doing something wrong? Prabhupāda: We don't cut down trees unnecessarily. Unnecessarily. Jesuit Priest: No, but, but, uh, but, uh . . . I don't kill . . . Prabhupāda: No. But the . . . I have asked this question to so many people that, "Why you are killing, although it is prohibited, 'Thou shall not kill'? " They cannot give me any satisfactory answer. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think I've given you one. I'm just thinking in a way . . . Prabhupāda: Innocent animal killing and taking a potato from the tree, you are making equalized. It is not very . . . Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, I'm not . . . (indistinct) . . . and saying. All I'm saying is if you're logical and accept different . . . Prabhupāda: This is logical. Now . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . kinds of life. Prabhupāda: I have to live. We agree that we have to live by eating another living entity. Jivo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). But if I eat this grass, taken some grass, and if I eat some animal, do you think they are equal? Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Equal? Then why don't you kill your child, own child? Jesuit Priest: Because there's a, I mean, a . . . that's, that's . . . not logical. I just tried to show you the difference between . . . Prabhupāda: Now, we don't agree that . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . vegetative life, sensitive life and rational life. Prabhupāda: . . . that innocent . . . that . . . that's all right. Revatīnandana: Rational? Animals have got rationality. Jesuit Priest: No they haven't. Omnia animalia intelectu carent. Revatīnandana: Even your . . . Jesuit Priest: This is bringing out exactly . . . Revatīnandana: Even your own psychologists will display to you rational life in the monkeys. Jesuit Priest: No, no. Revatīnandana: And so many other animals. Rats. Jesuit Priest: No. Revatīnandana: They make rational decisions. Jesuit Priest: No they don't. Revatīnandana: Oh? Jesuit Priest: Well, I mean it's been accepted . . . Revatīnandana: Your own psychologists will display that to you. Jesuit Priest: Well, all I can say is it's been accepted in the teaching of not merely Western philosophers . . . Revatīnandana: Not Eastern philosophers. Jesuit Priest: . . . but all Eastern philosophers . . . omnia animalia intelectu carent. And now, as Mrs. Critchley just said, if you've done a bit of study . . . Prabhupāda: So because, because some animal is not intelligent, you are right to kill? Jesuit Priest: No, no, no. We're not talking about killing. He, his theme now, that there's no difference between us and the dog. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes. Revatīnandana: You're more intelligent than a dog—to some degree. Prabhupāda: No, if . . . Jesuit Priest: So in other words, if we are, all of us here . . . Prabhupāda: Even the animal is not intelligent, you cannot kill. Because your child is also not intelligent, so that does not mean you can kill your child. Jesuit Priest: Oh, but nobody, I'd . . . nobody'd, nobody'd, master, nobody'd for one second would think about killing a child. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not a very good reasoning, that because the animal is not intelligent, they may be killed. That is not very good reason. Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, that isn't the reason. That isn't the reason why we kill it. We kill the animal because we need it for a means of living. Prabhupāda: No . . . Jesuit Priest: As food. Prabhupāda: You need it . . . just like if you can get nice fruits, grains, milk, why do you need animal? You have to eat. You have to eat and live. Not to kill. Similarly, that if you can get nice foodstuff from food grains, from fruits, from flowers, from vegetables, from milk, why you should kill the animals? Mother: Well, a lot of people now are going over to health foods. Prabhupāda: Eh? Mother: This is thought of by a lot of people. Prabhupāda: Well, lot of people may do anything. Mother: I agree with you. Yes . . . Prabhupāda: But a reasonable man, a religious man, he should have discrimination that, "If I get my foodstuff from here, why shall I kill a big animal?" Mother: Well, it's not . . . I always think it's not for me to condemn people, whatever they do. All I ask for in life is . . . I'm not condemning you, but, uh . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are thinking in that way. It is alright that we have to eat some living entity, but a preference . . . if we can get . . . besides that, when you get the grains, it is not actually killing. When you get the fruits, I am getting these fruits from the tree. It is not killing. The fruits are there. I take it. It falls down. I take it. The grains also. It is not killing. Mother: Well, I think . . . no, well, I don't think we're really worried about whether we kill or you . . . Prabhupāda: So similarly, if I take milk from the cows, that is also cow's blood, but I don't kill it. So if I can live in such nice way, without killing, I get the fruits and flowers and the milk and the grains, why should I kill the animals? Mother: There're a tremendous number of people being vegetarians today. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: You're not the only people. I mean, a lot of people just have, yes, they do . . . Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is nice, very nice. They should be vegetarian. Mother: . . . but we don't condemn people who do. Prabhupāda: That will make them less sinful. And that will qualify them to go back to home, back to Godhead. If they remain sinful, they cannot go. Jesuit Priest: Would you say that because we—and I talk about myself—because I have meat and bacon and so on, I am a . . . does that make me sinful? If I didn't eat those, I would be less sinful? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is our philosophy. Jesuit Priest: So if I give up eating meat and bacon and sausages and things, I'll suddenly become a different person. Prabhupāda: Then you become pure. You become pure. Revatīnandana: Yes. Yes. Jesuit Priest: That's very interesting. Revatīnandana: I just met a gentleman who told me exactly that. Just a few min . . . he's a businessman here in London. He's about forty years old. And three months ago, he decided, because he learned, heard this from us, he decided to become a vegetarian. And a few weeks later, I talked to him. He said: "You know, it's amazing the difference in my consciousness." He says: "I have become a completely different man." Yeah, he told me that. Prabhupāda: Well, yes . . . Revatīnandana: And he's a very intelligent man. He's in the Mensa Society, in London. Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature it is said the animal killers cannot understand God. Mother: Well, this is very good, that, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument . . . yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it. Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull. Mother: What about your children? Where do they . . .? Do they go to school? Prabhupāda: Why not? Mother: Are they edu . . .? Do they go to schools, your children? Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school. Mother: Well, I didn't mean yours in particular. I'm talking now of all of you. I'm not talking of you particularly. I'm talking of all of you. All your children, the married devotees . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas , householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school. Mother: But you have got a school, a Kṛṣṇa school? Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes. Mother: And now, how . . .? Do they go through college? Prabhupāda: They are now little children. But we don't wish to send them to college. We have got sufficient books. Mother: So you'll cut off their education like that? Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense education? Revatīnandana: No, no. Mother: Now, do you think that's not cruel to them? Prabhupāda: We don't care for this . . . Revatīnandana: We cut off your education, and we take education from the *Vedas* and from our spiritual master. We learn how to read, how to write, how to handle numbers sufficiently, and whatever we need practically for our work. And we learn the science of God from our spiritual master. And we find that sufficient for us. We haven't got to spend extra time and many extra years irrelevant subjects that are never going to relate to our practical life or to our God conscious life. Jesuit Priest: But you're depending on other people, then, to do the other side of your life for you. Prabhupāda: We are not depending on anyone. Jesuit Priest: Well, what happens when suddenly one of you gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Jesuit Priest: What happens if somebody gets very ill tomorrow morning? Prabhupāda: So we give them medicine. Mother: You call the doctor. Jesuit Priest: No, you call the doctor, don't you? Prabhupāda: So we pay for that. Jesuit Priest: I know, but you call him, don't you? You want him to be. You want the doctor in existence. Prabhupāda: So does it mean to say that because we require necessary, we have to take education of medical man? Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men. Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily . . . Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: Our training is . . . first of all, try to understand. We . . . just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work—walking. The hand is doing its own work, and the belly's doing its own work, and the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg, but does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also. Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like . . . Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from . . . when there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: Yes. Well, as I say . . . Prabhupāda: It does not . . . Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse. Prabhupāda: You are asking us, "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take? Mother: Because if everybody . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no necessity. If the . . . if I can pay, I can get the help of a medical man, why should I waste my time in that way? Let me . . . *Mother: You think? Ah, but you should be self*-supporting. You should be . . . Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God. *Mother: You should be self*-supporting in that way. *Prabhupāda: Self*-supporting . . . we are self-supporting. Just like . . . I have given the example. The body, the social body—you can take of this body—there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra . There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything. Mother: No, I don't mean that. You're misunderstanding me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then your question is replied. When I need the help of a medical man, I go to the medical man. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that . . . Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find. Mother: . . . you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no? Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that, "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question. Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question? Mother: Well, my brain works, and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. Mother: . . . and still be with God. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man? Mother: I think it's so sad to see a lot of very good . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Just, just try to understand this point. Mother: . . . young men becoming cabbages. Prabhupāda: They're misunderstanding. Yes. When I can get . . . just like here is father. He's trained up how to preach. He's not a medical man. But he doesn't require to learn the medical science. Mother: No, but I didn't ask you to be a doctor. I said some of your boys. Prabhupāda: Why . . . why you are asking? My boys are the same. Revatīnandana: Which ones? Which ones of us should become doctors here? Mother: Well, all, all, all . . . Revatīnandana: Supposing they all want to be preachers. Do you go to your seminaries and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox . . . Revatīnandana: No. No, no. Mother: . . . or typhoid, you . . . you know what smallpox is like in India. Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division. Revatīnandana: Do you go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to become a doctor? Mother: It'd be no good at all being priest if you had smallpox, would it? Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come . . ." Prabhupāda: We are treating them. Revatīnandana: ". . . and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers. Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes. Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us . . . you, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business. Mother: Well, my son is my business. Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent. Mother: Yes, but he was . . . Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you. Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university. Prabhupāda: But . . . that's all right. If some of our student goes to the university . . . there are many students . . . Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael. Prabhupāda: We don't object to that. Revatīnandana: Michael came to the temple in London, sat down, and didn't want to go away. Mother: He'd been taking LSD, and he was very sick. And somebody took him in. Prabhupāda: So . . . so when he was taking LSD, what did you do for him? Revatīnandana: Why was he taking LSD? He had wonderful education, happy home, so many things. Mother: Well, he was experimenting. Now this is it . . . Revatīnandana: So LSD is acknowledged a dangerous thing to experiment with. Prabhupāda: You like that? You like that? Mother: Well, he had a false . . . this was not . . . Prabhupāda: When he was taking LSD, did you like that? Mother: I didn't know, did I? Prabhupāda: Then? Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: And this is it. Prabhupāda: So there must be division for upkeep of the soc . . . that is missing. At the present moment, there is no division. Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD. Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be . . . there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of men has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be a preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that, "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (sound of jet) What is the use of talking? Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books. Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question. Mother: Is it not . . .? Prabhupāda: I say that there must be divisions. We are working on certain division. Mother: Well, tell me about the books you have translated. Are there some more to translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Well, one day you will die. Now who will translate them then, continue the translating? Prabhupāda: There are many. There are many. They are being trained up. There are many. Mother: Ah, yes. So people are being trained. Ah. This is what I'm asking you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: Well, I explained that to you earlier, that we have our classes. Prabhupāda: We are training every day. Mother: But then, this is languages. You've got to, you've got to study languages. You can't just be taught . . . Revatīnandana: Yes. So a few of us, so the few of us who have an aptitude for Sanskrit language are studying Sanskrit language. Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit, we are teaching English. Especially. Especially we are giving training to our boys to learn simply English and Sanskrit. Then they will be help. By learning Sanskrit, they will be able to read . . . Mother: Latin? Latin? And . . .? What . . .? Prabhupāda: There is no need of . . . one language sufficient, English language, practical . . . *Mother: Ah, but then that is one*-sided then, isn't it? Revatīnandana: Most of us don't even study Sanskrit very much. Prabhupāda: No. Just like English book. We are translating in German, translating in France, in Spanish . . . Mother: But there's a lot of Latin that needs translating too. I mean, you must . . . you must, you must have a full understanding of everything if you're going to translate. Prabhupāda: Yes. It will be better. If you also join, then we'll have full understanding. (mother laughs) Mother: You have a sense of humor. Jesuit Priest: What language, master, was your books originally written in? Prabhupāda: Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Don't you find it extremely difficult to get the literal meaning from the Sanskrit to the English? Prabhupāda: No. You may; it may be difficult for you, but . . . Jesuit Priest: No, no. I'm just thinking . . . Prabhupāda: . . . for one who knows Sanskrit, it is not difficult for him. Jesuit Priest: When I did my studies, we had to do Greek and Hebrew and Latin and, naturally, reading the scriptures in English. But it helped enormously with a background of a little bit of Hebrew. Not very much. But certainly Greek and Latin. You get a much more comprehensive notion of what's in the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are teaching Sanskrit. Jesuit Priest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit to our students. Jesuit Priest: Yes, but all I was saying was isn't it difficult to get across at times what you can see the meaning in the Sanskrit, but you can't put it into acceptable English? You know what I mean. The idiom isn't the same. Prabhupāda: We are giving every word, meaning. The book . . . (aside) Have you got any book? Bring it. You can see. Each and every word of Sanskrit we are giving meaning. Our mode of presentation is first of all we put the original Sanskrit language in devanāgarī character. Then we give English, roman transliteration, pronouncing the same word by diacritic mark. Then each word is translated into English. Then we give translation, the whole. And then we give the purport. This is our way. So we are giving meaning of each and every word, means we have got considerable knowledge of that word. Otherwise how we can give? Yes. Jesuit Priest: I was just thinking how difficult it is. I read Latin pretty well. And Greek. And I can see the meaning in the original, in the Greek when it was translated from the Aramaic. Now in your translating you can get a phrase, and if you know the language, you know exactly what it conveys. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Put it into English, and somehow, some of the meaning has come . . . Prabhupāda: Then that exact . . . Jesuit Priest: It's like the French. How do you say in . . . how do you translate "au revoir"? Prabhupāda: Otto? Revatīnandana: He's asking you how to translate a French word, "au revoir." Jesuit Priest: How do you translate into English? Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm not translating. The person who knows French language, he translates from our English. Jesuit Priest: Yes. No, well, I'm only trying to . . . a very simple question. It's not a question of trying to try anybody. I happened to say or give an example of what I mean. How'd you say in English, "au revoir." Prabhupāda: Just . . . just the . . . you have seen the . . . just show him how it is done. Yes, you can do it. Revatīnandana: That's all right. Mahādeva, you do it. Prabhupāda: You see the original Sanskrit. Mahādeva: Here's the text, here's the original Sanskrit. And we have a roman transliteration, and then individually, the word meanings. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I see. I've got it, yes. Mahādeva: And then a full translation. Jesuit Priest: Translation. Yes. They're marvelous. Yes. Yes. Revatīnandana: Actually, most of the Sanskrit, much of that work is done by one of Prabhupāda's disciples now. He handles much of the Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being trained. Revatīnandana: It's a mechanical process, after all. But the translation, that requires not only knowledge of the language, it requires spiritual realization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the spiritual translation is done by Prabhupāda. Not just from knowledge of Sanskrit, but from spiritually realized knowledge. That is the qualification to put the meaning into any language. You have to have realized the message. Jesuit Priest: Oh, I agree. Certainly our, the great, in the Western Church, all the translations of the Gospels and the Old and New Testament is done by, for the most part, by men who were saints, and, in other words, it wasn't merely their knowledge of the language, but their incredible closeness to God, in every one of them, . . . (indistinct) . . . and Augustine and all the great men . . . Revatīnandana: The most recent translation accepted by the Church of England, in England, was done by Oxford scholars. Saintly men? I know some of them. I don't think they're actually saintly men. Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. Revatīnandana: Well, it's the modern . . . it's accepted by the Church of England and most other Protestant churches in England. It's the New English Bible . Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And it's recommended by all these Churches for their followers to read. And it's translated by scholars, Oxford scholars. Jesuit Priest: Yes. I see. I take your point, that you can have a translation which is purely academic and a translation which is not merely academic, but has a, sort of a spiritual experience behind it. *Revatīnandana: Um*-huh. Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by . . . I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to . . . doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow. Revatīnandana: Hmm. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Critchley just pointed out, that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD? Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so they, lots of the young people today . . . Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful. Jesuit Priest: There's a vacuum created, and so they either take it up in . . . Mother: It's very extraordinary, though, that every boy that I have spoken to here . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam . . . (BG 7.28). Mother: . . . have all taken LSD or drugs of some kind. *Prabhupāda: . . . janānāṁ puṇya*-karmaṇām. Revatīnandana: That was one who hasn't. Mother: Even your president . . . Devotee: I haven't. Mother: I said . . . Revatīnandana: This one, this one . . . Mother: The ones I have spoken to. I said the ones I have spoken to. Even your president . . . *Revatīnandana: And Father Bernard? Father Bernard spent twenty*-three years in a Cistercian monastery. He left and came to us right afterward, and he's never taken LSD. Jesuit Priest: Who was in a Cistercian monastery? Revatīnandana: Father Bernard there. Jesuit Priest: Are you a priest? Mother: But I say quite a lot of your young people have come to you since they took drugs. I've spoken to . . . even your president admitted that he'd taken drugs. Prabhupāda: There is no restriction for anyone. God is open for everyone. Mother: But you said . . . Michael, I said: "Most of the people that I have spoken to." I didn't say "Most of the people here." I said "most of the people . . ." One person I'd spoken to hadn't, but I can truthfully say that only one hadn't, out of the ones I've spoken to. They have come here . . . you are . . . you seem to be able to help the people that have taken drugs, so that . . . Prabhupāda: That is my duty. Mother: You've helped them tremendously, and I can see this, but I am so sad that you can't help them to further their education. That's all my . . . my problem is . . . Mahādeva: Prabhupāda was making the point that the purpose of education is to know God. Mother: Yes, I know. I know. Yes, he has, and I've seen that point. Prabhupāda: Don't you think this is education? Mother: Well . . . Prabhupāda: This translator work? Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: If we are teaching our boys . . . Mother: But you know what I me . . . Prabhupāda: . . . Sanskrit and English to translate the original Vedic lit . . . is it not education? Mother: Yes, I agree with you. That is education. But I mean a fuller education. Prabhupāda: You are trying to induce our students to become technologists, medical men. You want that. Mother: Yes, because the world must have them. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But our point is that if we can get the help of technologist by paying little money . . . Mother: Well, you'd laugh if you were ill and there was no doctor, wouldn't you? Prabhupāda: . . . why should we waste our time? Mother: If you had acute appendicitis, what would you do? Devotee: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mother: Well, you wouldn't. You'd die. I mean . . . you laugh when I say that. Somebody's got to be a doctor. You're being very childish. Father agrees. There must be doctors. Revatīnandana: Well, it's good that . . . in the society we observe there are many, many people becoming doctors. But there are not very many people becoming brāhmaṇas , people who live a sinless life and who learn the science of God and distribute it to the people. There're not very many people . . . Jesuit Priest: I think that . . . I think that . . . Revatīnandana: Not very many, not very many people are doing that. Jesuit Priest: I don't know. I think that that's a gratuitous statement for which you can have no proof. Revatīnandana: I'm just saying not many people are doing it. How many pe . . . how many people, compared to the number of medical students in England, how many people are students in religious seminaries? Jesuit Priest: Well, do you know? Revatīnandana: No, I'm asking you. Jesuit Priest: Well, I do. I do. I do know it. Revatīnandana: So give us a comparison. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I . . . we've no problem at all . . . Prabhupāda: Now, another thing is . . . Jesuit Priest: . . . in finding plenty of young men to go along with the principles . . . Revatīnandana: Neither have we. And you're teaching them to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Revatīnandana: And Prabhupāda is teaching us to preach God consciousness. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Well, I know . . . I've never questioned that . . . Revatīnandana: So there's no necessity, there's no necessity of canvassing amongst the seminaries or here for medical doctors. Jesuit Priest: No, no. You've missed the whole point. Mrs. Critchley's original statement was, if the young men here went on, not merely . . . keep the knowledge and the search for the knowledge and love of God, by all means, but let them go on to develop their knowledge in the world of science, in the world of learning, and thus become leaders in that particular branch with a spiritual motif behind it, and instead of enclosing yourselves inside a circle like this, being able to spread the love of God amongst the tens of thousands of young people in the world. That's all . . . Revatīnandana: No. I, I suspect . . . Mother: We need it. We need it. Revatīnandana: I suspect that for the hundred, hundred or hundred and twenty of us in England, I think, for the number of us, I'll bet we're doing more work per man to spread it among the young people than your mission is. Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't know. You're making this statement. I haven't proof. Revatīnandana: Well, I know that in almost all of our centers they certainly happen to be developing a temple like this. We spend every day, from ten o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock at night, engaged in preaching work. Jesuit Priest: I think most of us do, too. Prabhupāda: Now, in each of our center we have got minimum fifty heads, maximum two hundred, 250. In Los Angeles you'll see . . . just we have got recent photograph. (aside) Bring the photograph from my room. You can bring. So we are giving them place, we are giving them food, we are giving them education. Jesuit Priest: Yes. Prabhupāda: In this way. So we invite anyone, everyone, without any distinction, without any discrimination—he may be Christian, he may be Hindu, he may be Muhammadan—"Come on. Live with us, and learn how to love." That is our mission. We say, according to our Vedic description: If you actually want peace of your mind, then you must try . . . you must learn how to love God. So our preaching is—it doesn't matter, whatever religion you are following, it doesn't matter—if you have achieved this aim, how to love God, then your system is first class. That's all. That is our preaching. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Bhakti means love of God. How much you have learned to love God, that much we want to know. We don't say that, "You are Christian, you become followers of Hindu rituals or Muhammadan rituals." No. You remain in your position, but just try to love God to the best of your capacity. Mother: Well, I think we do that. Jesuit Priest: We're all doing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit Priest: Most people. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our mission. Now, if you find it difficulty, you can come and join with us. That's all. Practically, in Europe and America, they are all coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So . . . yes. This is a recent photograph of our Los Angeles center. They are regularly living in the temple, as they are living in the temple. Mother: Hmm. Put my glasses on, see if I can . . . look at . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And you'll also be surprised to know that this, this was a church, that building. It was a big church. So we have purchased it. Jesuit Priest: Very nice. Mother: In other words, your temple . . . do you call it your temple or a church? Prabhupāda: We call temple. Mother: A temple. And are these married and . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, there are married, there are sannyāsīs , there are brahmacārī , all kinds of people. It is not restricted. You see? So many children. They're having children. We are taking care of them. Everything. Mother: Now, do you have these temples in India? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Mother: Because I myself haven't been to India, but my parents were there. And the Indian contingent from Dunkirk was billeted in my home in 1940, just before I married. Prabhupāda: Oh. There you see. Oh. Mother: And we had all the Indians there after Dunkirk, waiting for more Indians to come and join them. And we had the Hindus and the Muhammadans and the sweepers, and they all had their own houses. And they recovered from all the war damage, and they went off within about twelve months. They went off in '41, back to . . . Prabhupāda: There was some bombing in Calcutta, nothing more. Mother: Hmm. Ah, but these Indians were fighting in France. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another thing. Mother: Dunkirk. Prabhupāda: Dunkirk. Mother: And then they came, when Dunkirk was evacuated, they came back in all these little boats that they escaped in, and they got together and they billeted them . . . and I was living with my godmother in Shalden, in Devonshire. And we had eight acres. And the Army put up huts for them. And they lived there for about eight months until more Indians were sent to make them back to strength again, the regiments, big enough. And then they went overseas again. Some went to Burma, some to Italy. I don't know where they went, of course, but they were very good . . . Prabhupāda: They went to die, after all. Mother: They were very good soldiers. No, they didn't all die. Of course, some did, I expect. Prabhupāda: Some, (laughs) yes. Mother: But they were, they were very fine men. Jesuit Priest: Well, anyhow, thank you very much, Father, for letting us talk and for letting us listen to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming here. Jesuit Priest: Very nice to come here, and congratulations for . . . Prabhupāda: No, our only proposal is that you try to love God. That's all. God is one. God is neither Hindu, nor Muslim, nor Christian. God is God. So let us love God. That's all. That is perfection of life. Mother: Well, you can rest assured, we do that. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Mother: Yes, we do that. Prabhupāda: That is our . . . *Jesuit Priest: I wouldn't have given up my life to Him fifty*-two years ago to be a Jesuit priest unless I loved God, would I? Prabhupāda: No. Unless you love God, how you have become priest? *Jesuit Priest: And I'm not only one, but there happen to be thirty*-three thousand of us in the world. Prabhupāda: Because you have become a priest, that means you love God. *Jesuit Priest: Yes. Fifty*-two years ago I made up my mind. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is understood. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are brāhmaṇa because . . . Mother: How do you know I'm a grandmother? Revatīnandana: No, he said brāhmaṇa . Mother: Oh! I thought you said grandmother! I am a grandmother. Prabhupāda: Now, that's it. Jesuit Priest: Well, I think we'd better be . . . Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam . Mother: Well, thank you very much. And . . . Mahādeva: Give it in the house. Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam there. Mother: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Mother: Well, I think we understand each other a little better. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: But you are fortunate that you have got so nice son like that. Mother: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: Yes. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye. *Jesuit Priest: Good*-bye, thanks, good-bye. *Mother: Good*-bye, all of you. Bye. (guests leave) (break) Revatīnandana: . . . question that she said he came to us because he was taking LSD and he had a false religious experience. And the question is now, if they have access to a true religious experience, why was he looking for a false religious experience? Why was Michael looking for a false religious experience from LSD if he had already got true religion? They didn't understand. Their best children are taking LSD because they can't get any satisfaction from their parents' religion. Śrutakīrti: He answered that by saying he didn't have that supernatural grace. Revatīnandana: Yeah, why not? That's pretty clear, actually. "Well, we love God. Yes, we love God." A steak and a glass of wine and God. Śrutakīrti: I think a storm is coming. Prabhupāda: Eh? Śrutakīrti: A rainstorm is . . . Prabhupāda: Rainstorm? No. Revatīnandana: Little, little . . . it might rain. It's not for a while. But when it gets misty, it sometimes rains. Prabhupāda: You can understand from the cloud. When it's blackish, then there is rain . . . (end) Conversation -- August 4, 1973, London (Conversation with Mr. John Papworth and Mr. E. F. Schumacher) Revatīnandana: So Mr. Papworth you know, and Mr. Schumacher will be up in a second. Prabhupāda: Yes, you came here before. Revatīnandana: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: How are you? Mr. Papworth: My invariable reply, sir, is that I am dying slowly. I trust you are well, sir. Prabhupāda: Yes. Old man, (laughs) struggling. Spiritual consciousness is not dependent on material impediments. Mr. Papworth: I'm not hearing these beautiful words. (pause) Revatīnandana: He remarked that the spiritual consciousness is not impeded by material impediments—like the body. Mr. Papworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bathful of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it. Prabhupāda: What is your idea of meditation? (someone enters) Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Revatīnandana: Sit over here. Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni. The Sanskrit word is muni . Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of "Crisis of Increasing Motorcars" in this paper. Actually, we are creating crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. *One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung, sat*-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye vilāsa (Gaurā Pahu). Sat-saṅga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa , we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu . . . there are two things: material and spiritual. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye . . . "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. *Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma*-bandha-phāṅsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motorcar Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading. Revatīnandana: Was it this one? Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: (to guest) It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay. Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: It's called "The Economics of Permanence." Prabhupāda: Yes. "The Motorcar Crisis"? Revatīnandana: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location. Vicitravīrya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps. Prabhupāda: Heh? Vicitravīrya: It was in one of the magazines I think. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Here. Mr. Papworth: The one on Buddhist economics. Dr. Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence." Mr. Papworth: Oh. Prabhupāda: Hmm. (looking through magazine) "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article, "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit; another side, we make pollution. Dr. Schumacher: That's it. *Prabhupāda: This is the material . . . result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you . . . that is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gītā . In the Bhagavad-gītā , we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mr. Papworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that? Revatīnandana: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking. *Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya , a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that, "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he become perfect. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it, but we say purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible. Mr. Papworth: It's possible to what? Prabhupāda: Purify. Mr. Papworth: Purify the pollution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Papworth: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). So everything should be done—that is called karma-yoga —in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized, bhakto 'si priyo 'si ( BG 4.3): "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go . . . we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it. Mr. Papworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it? *Prabhupāda: The means is that . . . our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana , chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we . . . we can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By . . . but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motorcar factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord," what their . . . what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say. Dr. Schumacher: I don't see the point. Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection. Dr. Schumacher: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange that, "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. But we don't demand anything that, "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So . . . from the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, everything will be purified. *Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni . . . (CC Antya 20.12). All problems will be solved. This is the beginning. Now, gradually, as people understand this philosophy, they will understand. They will understand. If they simply give us the chance. Sthāne sthitāḥ. Let them remain in their position. We don't disturb. We don't disturb. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Simply they will kindly give their aural reception what we are speaking. Mr. Papworth: Well, the diagnostic's not altogether clear to me how the chanting is going to affect the pollution. How do you see . . .? Prabhupāda: It is a purificatory process. Pollution means impure. So if you purify, then there is no more pollution. Just like infection. You have got some disease, infection. If you give some vaccine to purify the body, the infection is gone. It is like that. Revatīnandana: It seems that there's a difference in the usage of this word "pollution." Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: I think there's a difference in the way the word "pollution" is being used. Prabhupāda: Yes, whatever meaning you may do . . . Revatīnandana: So, for instance, if it is used to indicate air pollution . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: . . . then how will the chanting will affect that? Prabhupāda: Yes, it will affect. Revatīnandana: He's asking how. Prabhupāda: How? That you do not know. You'll have to realize when you give us the chance. But if you give us the chance, there is no loss on your part. But you'll practically see how it is rectified, how it is . . . Vicitravīrya: Pollution is to some extent a result of materialistic activity? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vicitravīrya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is, these are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gītā . We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing that in Communist country. Haṁsadūta: Ah . . . Prabhupāda: You just explain to them. Haṁsadūta: They have a big youth festival there in East Berlin. Maybe you know? "The Festival of Youth." Mr. Papworth: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want to know what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so*-called Communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect. Mr. Papworth: They were Communist youth who were surrounding? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Mr. Papworth: The people. Haṁsadūta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses. Mr. Papworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all Communist youth, are they? *Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about Communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because, huh, Communism, so*-called Communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism, because we recognize that the Supreme . . . Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy . . . Communist philosophy is, "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? So . . . but it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism. Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center. Mr. Papworth: Do you think that the Christian monasteries practiced this in the past, or perhaps even today? Haṁsadūta: Well, today, no one is practicing it. Otherwise why people are leaving the Church? No one is in the monastery, no one is in the church. They are abandoning it. Because there is no center. As soon as there is a center, it will carry weight. Just like a wheel. If there's a hub, if there's a hub, then it will carry weight. Mr. Papworth: I have not abandoned the Church. I have embraced it. Haṁsadūta: Anyway, our point is . . . we're speaking in general. In general, because the center, factually the center, God, is missing, somehow or other, He's missing, therefore people are also giving it up. They can't take it. Because it's not practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is practical. It's not a sentiment or a dry philosophy. It's a practical philosophy of life, absolute philosophy of life, how to do everything without any pollution, without any contamination. *Just like we are experiencing by our so*-called advancement that we have created so many modern facilities for comfort, but the result is, alongside, simultaneously, there's an equal disadvantage. Just like we create a motorcar, but we create air pollution. Or you create a highway, but you have to create snowplow to clear the highway. You have to create police. You have to create so many other things. Prabhupāda: And there is list of accidents, injuries. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Revatīnandana: And just like yesterday, Mahādeva's parents came here. His mother came here, along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said: "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure" as he had just been saying, "then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual . . ." Haṁsadūta: Vacuum? Revatīnandana: ". . . spiritual something at this time, spiritual lack at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet we have filled that lack, or rather our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that. Prabhupāda: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer. (pause) Revatīnandana: How does the . . . how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit into your philosophy for, huh say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy? Dr. Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as . . . Revatīnandana: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on. Dr. Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: That's what I was saying, you see. Prabhupāda: When there is no food, so human life is more important than animal life. So the human life should be saved at the sacrifice of animal. That is another question. But where there is complete facilities to get very nice, nutritious food, why these poor animals should be killed? Dr. Schumacher: Sure. Revatīnandana: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that . . . Prabhupāda: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree. Dr. Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it? I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is a simple question. Killing . . . do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill"? Dr. Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same times, you want to purify. How it is possible? *Dr. Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat*-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of treatment of animals is just, uh, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge. *Revatīnandana: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, then it can be changed. All of us are from meat*-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants, we've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life. *But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony*-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him . . . I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction. Mr. Papworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what? Revatīnandana: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said: "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology—no senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the *Vedas* , is a human birth. You're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not . . . an intelligent man who can sense that, "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's . . . *Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Chandragupta. So he was honorary prime minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat : "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. *So mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu . And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualification, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestation, treating all women as mother—treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; *and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principle? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says: Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected; it doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor . . . so this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore you expect. Mr. Papworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully, if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made is not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible—I don't say this to justify the killing of animals—but it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoebox, and then add two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it . . . it seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing. Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing? Mr. Papworth: Far more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Papworth: And young cows, calves, are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food—milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins—to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down. Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals? Revatīnandana: No, he's talking . . . he's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him . . . Haṁsadūta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop. Mr. Papworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter. Prabhupāda: It is nice. Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then animals are free. They can go everywhere. Mr. Papworth: I think you are avoiding the point, you see. This is not . . . Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark, so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. Next stage of brute mentality . . . they're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not? Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not within the womb. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory. Dr. Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty . . . well, I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: Yes. *Dr. Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat*-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see—unless such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices . . . I think one should be a bit careful there. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all . . . all throughout history . . . Haṁsadūta: Therefore all throughout history . . . Dr. Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . you haven't . . . why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat . . . animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means . . . Prabhupāda: Pollution. Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting . . . just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction—air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed. Mr. Papworth: You think like this? Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's . . . there are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction. Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good . . . a good formula on this, and . . . Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy. Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat . . . Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say. Dr. Schumacher: . . . but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat . . . Prabhupāda: What is this? Dr. Schumacher: . . . so they let the Muslims kill the animals. *Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take . . . if the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal*-killer. Dr. Schumacher: Well, that is . . . Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat, if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat, if I eat the meat, I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic . . . there's a Vedic verse that explains it. Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course. Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking. In this way. Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution. Revatīnandana: This, this . . . Dr. Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian. Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue. Dr. Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it. Revatīnandana: Oh, it changes everything immediately. Dr. Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London . . . now, I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems. Haṁsadūta: Yes, let them come here. We will . . . Dr. Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming. Prabhupāda: Because there are restriction. Dr. Schumacher: That is not, that is not . . . that doesn't meet my point. My point is . . . Haṁsadūta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Kṛṣṇa can provide place for any number of His . . . Prabhupāda: Millions. Haṁsadūta: . . . devotees. Any number. Mr. Papworth: I found this the other day—and you'll forgive me making this point—but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest so we listen to what he has to say. Then answer him. Revatīnandana: But . . . just that this is interesting, that the solution is there . . . Mr. Papworth: But you haven't heard the problem yet. Revatīnandana: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand. Prabhupāda: But one thing . . . Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand? Prabhupāda: Mister, yes . . . I forgot your name. Mr. Papworth: John. Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world. Mr. Papworth: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure. All failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it. Dr. Schumacher: I agree with that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory, but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories, but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā mano-rathe . . . (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena , hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. *Mano*-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : how to become a brāhmaṇa , how to become a kṣatriya , how to become a vaiśya , how to become a śūdra , or how to remain less important than the śūdras . The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly . . . (break) (indistinct) . . . everything will be entwined with it. If you mix up, if there is no division, what is head what is leg then it is chaos and confusion. Revatīnandana: Just like for example the *Vedas* say that whatever unnecessary slaughter is going on there will always be a war going on. The society is constantly crying about war. One Vietnam War, the Second World War, the First World War and you go back all the way to the Greeks. It is war after war and what is the is always there? When they could be producing grains vegetables, fruits etc very nicely. They are instead producing animals for slaughter, by habit, by custom, that custom has gradually grown in this materialistic age. Eh. So . . . Prabhupāda: Nature will setup a reaction. Revatīnandana: The *Vedas* said this will happen. Immediately it is already the reaction is there, it is happening. Papworth: It seems to me we have already covered this ground. Revatīnandana: I don't. Papworth: In the sense that we were discussing whether vegetarian approach could be legitimately taken as a central point. Prabhupāda: No we are speaking of God consciousness, we do not speak on vegetarianism. No, we are this is . . . Papworth: Alright none killing. Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: None killing. Prabhupāda: It is one of the processes but our aim is God consciousness, not to become vegetarian. Papworth: But you see the one is means to the other. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But just try to understand. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . vegetarian simply . . . (indistinct) . . . live about. *Prabhupāda: Vegetarian.Just like a tiger, a tiger cannot be vegetarian. That is not possible, by nature it is non*-vegetarian. So I cannot ask a tiger, a dog, a jackal, to become vegetarian. But I can ask a human being who is not a tiger, a jackal or dog and he can take it, that is human consciousness. Just like all my students, they are coming from Europe and America. They were addicted to all these habits. Now, just see them, how they have given up? They do not drink tea even. Do not smoke even . . . They are all young boys and girls, how they have taken to it? And when they go to saṅkīrtan party, even the Americans they ask, "Are you Americans?" They are surprised, "how you have changed so much?" One priest in Boston, he issued leaflet, that these boys our boys they are coming from Christian group, Jewish group. So before this they would not care to see us, even come to the church, now how they are so much after God? They are mad after God. So there is a process to purify the whole society, so if we adopt that process then everything can be changed and in the process these four things are there. That no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Guest: Can I ask you what illicit sex means? Prabhupāda: Illicit sex is without marriage. In the human society there is marriage, in animal society there is no marriage. They can have sex life on the street. We cannot adopt the means of the animals. You are not expected to do the same thing as the animals do. That is humanity. Therefore actually if we are serious to purify the whole situation we have to adopt the standard method otherwise it will be futile. Dr. Schumacher: You see I don't contradict any of these things, but surely it is right to say that God or Krishna consciousness is the primary thing . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: . . . but by fixing on just those four things. Prabhupāda: No not only four things. Dr. Schumacher: We are, we are introducing so many divisions into mankind. Revatīnandana: Yes, yes. Dr. Schumacher: The Christian is out because. Revatīnandana: Four classes are there. Dr. Schumacher: No, the Christian is out because Jesus drank wine. The Muslims are out because they eat meat. Others are out because they do not have the specific institution of marriage that we have. So surely we are substituting ephemeral things for the real thing. The real thing being God consciousness and are we not prepared to tolerate people who for instance drink wine? Revatīnandana: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Or even who gamble? Revatīnandana: Just. Dr. Schumacher: When these are not any more the central problems. I can't agree any kind of discipline . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is not central problem, that is proof of my students. They are coming from . . . you explain that Christian will be out but why they should be out? They were all Christians, how they are coming? Dr. Schumacher: Well Christianity is no longer acceptable teaching. Prabhupāda: No, they are Christians, they are Christians. How they have come? Dr. Schumacher: Well I don't know but . . . Prabhupāda: You don't know but you cannot say that the Christian will not come. Dr. Schumacher: No no they may come . . . Prabhupāda: It is the process of preaching, now they have come in dozens, if the preaching goes on they will come by thousands. We are preaching up intelligent class of men, doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu . . . Papworth: I quite accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes . . . so intelligent class of men they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Hindu or Muslim. We do not make any bar, "Oh, you are Christian, you cannot come, you're Muslim you cannot come." We welcome the intelligent class of men. Dr. Schumacher: But if one eats prasadam . Prabhupāda: No, my point is that you say that Christians are out, that is not the point. Dr. Schumacher: No, I beg your pardon, I don't think Christians are out, I'd say Christianity . . . Prabhupāda: If they are intelligent person it doesn't matter whether he is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or if, he will come. Dr. Schumacher: It is the four criteria I have stated then Jesus is unacceptable. Prabhupāda: No. Jesus is not unacceptable. We accept Jesus. Dr. Schumacher: To reform him? Prabhupāda: Yes, no we accept but we are simply saying that Jesus said, "Thou shalt not kill". Why the Christians are killing? That is our protest. Dr. Schumacher: Jesus was a meat eater and . . . Prabhupāda: Whatever Jesus may be, whatever he may be, he is Jesus Christ. You are not Jesus Christ, you have to obey his order, not his action. He is great, he can do anything, he is free to do anything, but you have to obey his order you haven't got to imitate his. You cannot imitate great personality. He might have done in circumstances, in different circumstances, that is his business, but if you are a real Christian you have to obey his order. Dr. Schumacher: Yes. Revatīnandana: He is in a semi desert region and you are not, that is the point. Simple as that. Prabhupāda: You cannot say that Jesus eat meat therefore we shall go on . . . (indistinct) . . . do you mean to say that Jesus said contradiction? He personally using eating meat and for others he says: "Thou shalt not kill." You mean to say, this is the philosophy of Jesus Christ? . . . contradictory. He is not contradiction it is our misunderstanding. Our duty should be, if one is really Christian strictly abide by the orders of Jesus Christ, that is our point . . . Revatīnandana: See, the śastras say they divide the human society, society into four groups. One group is God, second group is God's devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Not God, godly. Revatīnandana: No no but God is there the Supreme mode is there the devotees are there the innocent are there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: And the demons are there who are envious of God and the devotees. See, the *Vedas* say you worship God with love and devotion, you make friendship with the devotees, you preach to the innocent who will hear and you avoid the demons. It doesn't matter if the demon is dressed in priests garb or he is dressed as Hitler. If he is a demon you recognise him by his qualities . . . Guest: Well . . . (indistinct) *Revatīnandana: His innocent qualities. There is a whole chapter in Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Prabhupāda: A demon does not believe in God. Defies God that is demon. Guest: I can't quite understand why consciousness can be transferred, can be communicated in debatable argument. You can try it, communicate consciousness, or assume that people have different consciousness. Prabhupāda: So what is your idea? To change the consciousness? Guest: You seem to be anxious to change the consciousness, or impose it. Prabhupāda: Everything is changed by debate and argument. Guest: I don't go there. Prabhupāda: Yes, why do you go to the Parliament? Guest: I don't go. Prabhupāda: You don't go but your father goes. Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: So that you will not discuss . . . (indistinct) . . . the . . . (indistinct) . . . one man. Guest: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes, discussion, human reasoning's are there, philosophies are there, so you can establish the truth by discussion but if you are not after truth that is a different thing, that is a different thing. But if you are after truth, the truth must be established by bona*-fide discussion. Guest: I thought that the truth is, is, the truth of consciousness is that it is inside one, and it is alive and conscious. Not something that can be established with an objective truth. External to be. Prabhupāda: No, objective truth, truth is true. Just like God is truth, so we are not establishing God by discussion. God is there already we have to understand God by discussion, that's it. Truth is already there. Guest: We seem to be in a situation of hostility here which is totally unnecessary. Prabhupāda: No, why unnecessary? All preacher did it, eh? Lord Jesus Christ he preached and because people did not agree with him he was crucified. So discussion is always there, you cannot avoid it. Why he was crucified? What was his fault? Because people did not agree with Him. That's all. Papworth: But the central, the point that I think Doctor Schumacher was sharpening a bit was about the position of Christians in the terms of the four points, four rules of conduct that you enunciate, Jesus, the last message to those around him was take this cup of wine drink it in remembrance of me and ever since he died Christians week after week from generation to generation . . . Prabhupāda: Then how do you . . . Papworth: . . . to take the cup. Prabhupāda: Take his order? Commandment thou shall not kill. Does it mean that Jesus Christ was hypocrite? He was eating meat and advising not kill, do you think like that? Papworth: No well . . . Dr. Schumacher: Well the traditional interpretation of this both of the Jews and. Prabhupāda: That is not. Dr. Schumacher: Christians Prabhupāda: Tradition and . . . interpretation is different, but truth is truth. Dr. Schumacher: The traditional interpretation both of the Jews and Christians has always been that this refers to killing humans. Prabhupāda: That is for his convenience, he has invented but we have to take direct meaning. What does it mean kill? Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill," this is direct order. Dr. Schumacher: It is not ah . . . Prabhupāda: If you want to support in that way, interpretation, that is different thing. But we take the direct order. Christ said: "Thou shalt not kill" that should be taken directly, direct meaning, no interpretation. Why interpretation? When you can understand what is the meaning of killing, why you should interpretate at all? Everyone if you open the dictionary you can see the meaning, everyone knows what is the meaning of killing. Why you should interpretate at all? Interpretation is required when the meaning is not clear. Dr. Schumacher: Well, with respect interpretation is necessary, for instance, and was given this evening when I said: "Killing animals for protection" I was told that. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: That special? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Suppose a tiger is coming. Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . are the Eskimos killing animals because . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is . . . Dr. Schumacher: Different. So we are in the field of interpretation. Revatīnandana: The scriptures give all these dispensations. Dr. Schumacher: So we are in the field of interpretation? Revatīnandana: The scripture also gives dispensation. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The thing is that, "Thou shalt not kill". Suppose a tiger is coming here to attack. I shall kill it but I should not go to the forest to kill him. Dr. Schumacher: I accept all this, I accept all this . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is the interpretation, it is not my business to go to the forest and kill him. Dr. Schumacher: That's right. Prabhupāda: When he comes to attack me, I must kill him. Why a tiger? Even a man comes to attack me I must kill him. That is another thing, but that means naturally I am not in favour of killing but if there is necessity, absolute necessity I must kill him, that is another thing. Dr. Schumacher: Well, I, this with great respect is an interpretation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And therefore I can't sit here and say that all the Jews and all the Christians for thousands of years have all been wrong by interpreting the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" as referring to people. They have often enough transgressed that, so but the really worrying thing to me is while I accept that spiritual development requires certain disciplines and of course essential disciplines are some of those that have been named here, but surely we can agree that these are purely means to an end. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And that I do not really act as touchstone or something, sincerity or genuineness of the people, that one can choose quite a different set which would be perhaps in modern society even more irrelevant and it is particularly disturbing because we all know the great personalities who have done tremendous harm to mankind and spirituality . . . Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Schumacher: . . . who never had illicit sex, never gambled never intoxicate themselves and were very careless. So it is quite clear that these four things by themselves are as nothing. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Dr. Schumacher: This is the Christian teachings do not . . . *Prabhupāda: Therefore we say, guṇa*-karma , quality and work, guṇa-karma vibh . . . suppose you have passed the law examination but you are not practising. Nobody will call you as a lawyer. So, when you are qualified to become a lawyer and practising, then you are a lawyer. Similarly, theoretical knowledge that these things will help but if I do not practice it then I am not qualified those things. But two things must be there, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ . One must be qualified and at the same time practised in life then he is. Without practising simply theoretical knowledge will not do. These people, these students, they are practising they are not depending on the theoretical knowledge, they are practising. Dr. Schumacher: The practice, I am sure goes beyond the observance of these four precepts? Prabhupāda: Why? Unless you have accepted the precepts how you can practice? If you do not know, this is good, this is bad how you can practice to become good or bad? Guest: It's only practice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: It's only practice. Prabhupāda: Yes it must be practice. Guest: It's not the real experience. Prabhupāda: No, you must know what is what and practice it, that is called jñāna and vijñāna. Vijñāna means science or practical application, experiment that is science observation and experiment. Observation is theoretical and experiment is practical so when two combine then it is science. Papworth: I am intrigued that the four precepts make numerous references to truth or to love or to beauty and I wonder if you could not conceive it possible that people could follow these four precepts and still be living in ways which would deny attempts to prove this. Prabhupāda: Yes that is possible, therefore we say practice. Even we can accept one who is addicted to these four principles he can become also God conscious even accept that. Our point is that one must be God conscious either by following these precepts or not following these precepts, it doesn't matter. Dr. Schumacher: Oh alright, I am happy. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter, we want to see that he is God conscious because sometimes we see those who are addicted to these principles still he is not God conscious and one who is not addicted still he is God conscious, there is possibility. But these are the general, regulations. Just like Rabindranath Tagore, you know Rabindranath Tagore's name? A Bengali poet who. Dr. Schumacher: Rabindranath yes. Prabhupāda: Rabindranath, Tagore. Dr. Schumacher: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Yes, he never went to school but he was offered doctorate title from Oxford University, yes. So that does not mean everyone should not go to school and he will get the doctorate title. It is not general, specific, that is another thing, so we have to discuss the general principle. Specifically it is possible, but even one is addicted to all these principles he can be completely God conscious, that is possible. And even one is not addicted, he may, he can become a demon. So these are uncommon exceptional cases but generally this is the rules. *Dr. Schumacher: I'm sure you appreciate my difficulty when it comes to meat eating but ah, ninety*-nine out of the Christian saints were in fact not vegetarians and so from my point of view this is not the very rare exception like Rabindranath Tagore getting honorary degree and it is a very specific Indian tradition of which I am very much aware, Southeast Asian tradition to put this great emphasis on vegetarianism, but it does seem to me a little bit out of focus to condemn a Jesuit because he does not immediately take on that point. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Schumacher: This is really what gave rise to this conversation. Revatīnandana: He didn't click on any of the other points either. Dr. Schumacher: That I wouldn't know (laughs). Revatīnandana: The *Vedas* say that and this again, a general rule, a meat eating mind cannot understand spiritual life. This man. Prabhupāda: That is general. Revatīnandana: Couldn't understand the general principle, we are talking about changing the general society, you have a general society of meat eaters you want them to understand spiritual life. It is going to be a very difficult situation. Prabhupāda: The *Bhāgavatam* enunciation of religion is given there, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. (SB 1.2.6) Religious systems there are many religious systems chiefly Hinduism, Christianity, Mohammedinism or Buddhism, it doesn't matter. We don't say that you are Buddhist or you're Christian, you become a Hindu. We never say that. We do not say that, our policy is not proselytisation it is not our process we simply ask people that you become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Try to understand God and love him, that's all. But these regulative principles are favourable for your advancement, that is our mission. Dr. Schumacher: This I accept. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you can a lover of God, you can become without following these regulative, we have no objection to it. We want to see that you are actually lover of God. Dr. Schumacher: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But then another thing is that I cannot pretend that I am lover of God my actions will be, ah proved. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , God consciousness means brahma-bhūta, brahma-jñāna , this is technical pure. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that one who has become God conscious, brahma-bhūta , Brahma not materially conscious, that is called brahma-bhūta , God conscious brahma-bhūta . *One who has become God conscious he does not lament or hanker, first two qualification. If somebody says: "I am God conscious," then I will have to see the symptoms whether he is God conscious. So these are the symptoms, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā , he is jolly (coughs) and jollyness (coughs) means no hankering and no lamenting. So long one is materially conscious he has got two symptoms, he is lamenting for the loss and hankering for the gain. So God conscious person will be free from these two symptoms, na śocati na kāṅkṣati and samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , and he will observe all living entities on the equal level. So soon as I see that he is addicted to animal killing that means that he has not come to the position to see all living entities are the same level. That is also another symptom of God consciousness, if God is the original father that is expressed here: All living entities in any form, "I am the seed giving father", God is the father we are changing in different forms of body by a evolution, or something else, by karma . But I am the spirit soul, spark part and parcel of God, so you are. You may be in different dress, just like you are in black coat, I am in saffron cloth that does not mean you're not human being. The dress may be different, change. Similarly all living entities either he is a human being or a cat, or dog a cow they are all part and parcel of God. So one who is God conscious he cannot kill any other animal, he will not allow. He will never agree because he knows that the cat, or dog or a learned brāhmaṇa , their dress may be different but the living spark, the soul is the same. So he cannot give any pain to any living entity, that is one of the symptoms of being God conscious. Guest: If you say that fact, can I ask you about sacrifice because you allowed in fact, if a tiger came to your house or a man even came to your house. Prabhupāda: Hm. Guest: You would legitimately kill him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: What is the em . . . Prabhupāda: That is the already explained. Guest: Hm. Prabhupāda: . . . if to kill a tiger who is coming to attack you and to kill an innocent animal in the slaughter house, do you think it is the same thing? Guest: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest: But in terms of God consciousness it must be. Prabhupāda: But God consciousness does not mean that he is a grand fool. That he will not kill a tiger who is coming to attack him, he is not a fool. Guest: In religious thoughts . . . Prabhupāda: There is no religious thought. You have come to attack me, I must kill you first. Guest: Why? Prabhupāda: Why, because you are my enemy. Guest: But, eh according to the Christian teachings you should love your neighbour. Prabhupāda: But that is not our teaching that we shall become a grand fool, somebody is coming to attack me and kill me and I shall say: "Yes sir kill me, yeah you are very good". That is not our philosophy . . . if somebody. Papworth: Do you not accept . . . Prabhupāda: Generally I don't want to kill you but if you become my enemy, if you want to kill me, I must kill you first. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is means. Just like Arjuna. Guest: If God is in the form of all living. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be but on the material platform I may be God conscious you may not be God conscious, then why you should come to kill me? So it is not our philosophy that anyone comes to attack you, a tiger, we shall embrace them, "Yes sir, come on kill me." That is not our philosophy. If you are aggressor, if you are coming to attack me, so it is my first duty to kill you first. Guest: By what right? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: By what right? Prabhupāda: Because you are my enemy. Guest: That doesn't seem to. That creates a division. *Prabhupāda: This is useless argument, if enemy you must be killed. Must be killed. That is the whole philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . That as God conscious person Arjuna, you have read Bhagavad-gītā ? He was sensitively, "No, no why should I kill" but Kṛṣṇa said. Dr. Schumacher: I know that. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, Arjuna was hesitating. Dr. Schumacher: He was hesitating, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes hesitating but Kṛṣṇa said no. Dr. Schumacher: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You must kill them because they are enemy, this is our philosophy. Papworth: Suppose you are mistaken? Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Supposing you are mistaken? Prabhupāda: Why you should suppose? You are mistaken. Papworth: People have been mistaken before. Prabhupāda: No if you are guided by the perfect person you cannot be mistaken. Dr. Schumacher: I think that in practice all good men are always agreed on this. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Schumacher: Em, but they aim at non*-killing but there are situations which. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Which cannot be avoided. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: Em I'm not bothered about that, I am bothered about any teaching which really asserts that the brāhmaṇa and the cat are in effect on the same, the same level because it seems to me that . . . *Prabhupāda: This is higher level because one sees the same spiritual spark within the brāhmaṇa and within the dog. That is clear vision, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . (BG 5.18) You find out this verse. Yes. That paṇḍita I have already explained, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita also said: samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54) He is paṇḍita he is learned. So what is that. Pradyumna: *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." Prabhupāda: Hm? What is the purport, is it there? Pradyumna: "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, or a cow, or an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge." "As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramātmā regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramātmā is present both in the outcaste and in the brāhmaṇa , although the body of a brāhmaṇa and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality. The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body, whereas the Paramātmā is present in each and every body." "A Kṛṣṇa conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction." (pause) Prabhupāda: So give them prasādam . Revatīnandana: See what I'm noticing is that there is two ways to follow this logical progression. If a man is a vegetarian and he doesn't drink, he is not necessarily God conscious. He could be a demon, there are cases, we admit that, right. So. Prabhupāda: Generally he is demon. Revatīnandana: Yes. Generally. Prabhupāda: Not he could be. Revatīnandana: No, I'm saying he. Prabhupāda: Exceptionally he may not. Revatīnandana: No, if he doesn't do it, if he doesn't eat meat. Prabhupāda: Oh. Revatīnandana: If he doesn't, still he may be a demon, he won't necessarily be God conscious, right, but if he comes into the association of a God conscious person and God conscious knowledge. He'll be able to understand it very readily, in most cases. He has a very good chance of understanding it. If a man is a meat eater and a drinker etc., he cannot be accepted very, except in very rare case, like Jesus Christ being God conscious. And if he comes in contact with God consciousness he has a very difficult time to understand, right. Therefore what we are saying is that the business is to become God conscious, yeah. In almost every case a necessary, a necessary precondition that he accepts these four principles, then he can progress further. Fortunately he cannot understand (background cough) to do this very well in this age, most people cannot understand. That is why we say, just let us go there and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. The purifying effect will overcome the reaction of the sinful life. He will become able to understand it but when he understands it he has to progress spiritually then these things become unimportant. We don't mind that the general society is engaged in these activities we were also engaged in them but simply that people should not oppose these principles and should allow us to do the kind of work that opens people's minds spiritually. Then they will put these things aside, then they can advance. Otherwise they will go on with the slaughter house and the war constantly and then have a very hard time to ever understand these things. This is our point. Prabhupāda: Now take a little prasādam . Mātājī: We have a. Prabhupāda: First of all. (break) Kṛṣṇa prasādam . Mātājī: We want to give you one of these. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. This one . . . (indistinct) Papworth: I can't understand why anyone should . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you have got such nice beautiful substitute, why should you go to take meat? Dr. Schumacher: Oh I quite agree. Revatīnandana: Actually we distribute as much as possible, to as many people as possible. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . not lamenting and not critical. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Schumacher: And if you can keep that up then you will get away with many things. I mean this is our teaching, our Christian teaching is. Look, if you come into a family and they are meat eaters of course you can't take . . . (indistinct) . . . if you come into a family that are vegetarians. Prabhupāda: No we go to family of meat eaters, they give us vegetable we eat. Dr. Schumacher: Yes but our instructions are you see that we should not mind, we should not be precious but. Prabhupāda: No no. Dr. Schumacher: Because the essence of the matter if you're not craving you're not craving and your not . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . this is vegetarian, strictly . . . Lord Fenner*-Brockway. Papworth: We are concerned as a Christian and the way my religion is full of things saying, "Thou shalt not," but I am much more interested in, what I shall do? *Prabhupāda: Hm? You shall eat vegetables, "Thou shalt not kill," that's all, as we are doing. We are not dying because we do not eat meat, if there is substances such as nice foodstuff why should we kill a poor animals? This is common*-sense reasoning. If there is no food I cannot starve and die, then I must eat, that is another thing. When there is substitute in America and England, so nice things are there, we can prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations from cow's milk, besides that we have got another philosophy. Cow is one of the mothers. There are seven mothers, out of them cow is one. So the animal eaters at least they must save their mother cow. If animal eating is at all necessary they can eat other animals, just like in India. Those who are animal eaters they take goats, hogs but they never kill cows because they consider, Hindus especially, cow is mother and it is mother because we are drinking her milk. Guest: Why is it India's so violent? Prabhupāda: Because they are following the Vedic principles. Guest: So violent? Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: Why is it that India's so violent? If it has lead such a vegetarian life. Prabhupāda: Who said that vegetarians should not be violent? Who said? Guest: Well. Prabhupāda: We have already explained that if there is enemy then you must be violent that is already explained . . . Revatīnandana: See there are so many, as I said these four things they are to encourage, they are to create an atmosphere for further progress. The further progress is when you prepare your food you understand it is Kṛṣṇa's food, so you offer it to Kṛṣṇa with devotion. *You sing the glories of Kṛṣṇa and you find out how to utilise your talents your occupational duties propensities for the satisfaction of the Lord. You raise your family to love Kṛṣṇa to chant the glories of Kṛṣṇa, to eat prasādam , you progress spiritually in a positive way because you have pulled out your anchor of sinful life, therefore you can move, and then when the anchor pulled you have a favourable breeze because from the scripture and the spiritual master you learn so many positive activities which comprised are what we call bhakti, bhakti*-yoga . Devotional way of becoming conscious of God, so the positive side is joyful process, but that joyfulness is allowed to grow when you pull up the anchor of sinful life. There is a story about a gentleman who . . . whose son was getting married to a girl in another village down the river and the custom was that the groom's entourage party would go to the village of the bride and be maintained there as guests by the parents of the bride and then the marriage would take place. So they went down one night and chartered a riverboat to take them down to the next village for the marriage and they proceeded to take their rest and in the morning when they awoke they were surprised to find that as the sun was rising they hadn't gone anywhere. So they complained to the boat keeper, "Why haven't you brought us anywhere?" He said: "Oh I am as surprised as you are, all night we have been rowing," it was a very dark night. And they looked and they hadn't moved because they have forgotten to pull the anchor. You can act very nicely but if. Just like I'm going to church, I'm giving money to the church, I'm giving to the charity so many things and yet I am not becoming ecstatically attached to the loving service of God. In fact I'm falling more and more into materialism, I'm loving Mammon more and more. So many Christian people are actually displaying that, for all their following of the rituals and the rights of the church they are still showing more and more attachment for Mammon because they have, they have a situation where they don't have to commit any kind of sinful activity and yet they are doing it. That is all right, but when they are told about it they resist, that is the demonic side. Guest: Can I ask you what is evil what behinds the evil? Prabhupāda: What is that? Revatīnandana: He is asking how you see evil? What is evil? Prabhupāda: When there is no God consciousness that is evil. This is the sum and substance, if you're not God conscious then everything is evil for you. This may be different, but you are in evil or as you say in the Christian, Satan. If you're not under God then you are under Satan. And Satan is evil. So anyone who is not God conscious he is in evil. That's all. Guest: Is that a force outside the individual or is it a force within the individual? Prabhupāda: Why you are dragging Indian we are talking of general. Revatīnandana: No no, he says, is that a force inside the individual, evil, or outside the individual? Is evil something that impresses me from outside or is it from within? Prabhupāda: Anyone who is not God conscious he is overwhelmed with evil, inside and outside both. We have to purify therefore inside and outside both. Guest: Do you really think then that anybody cannot be God conscious? Prabhupāda: What? Guest: By the nature of this creation God, the father, can anyone not be God conscious? Prabhupāda: No everyone can be God conscious, not to become God conscious, that is artificial. That is Satanic. To become God conscious is natural. So people who are not God conscious means they are living unnatural life. That everyone must have a father, so if one says I do not know who is father, that is unnatural life. Natural life is he must know, similarly the original father is God. If he does not know that is unnatural life and as soon as one comes to his natural life then he is all right, he's perfect . . . anything more? Guest: No, hardly, thank you. Prabhupāda: Mr John? Papworth: When I was a small boy I was told always to leave something on my plate as a sign of politeness, but your food is so nice that I was forgetting the rules. Everyone: (laughs) Revatīnandana: Hm? Prabhupāda: Before coming, joining. Revatīnandana: Oh yeah, that was the first thing. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Revatīnandana: That was the first thing. I didn't like the philosophy at all. Everyone: (laughs) Revatīnandana: But I couldn't stay away from the love feast on Sunday. See one thing you pointed out in your article, what was it called? The one about . . . ah . . . Dr. Schumacher: Christian responsibility? Revatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . no the other one. Prabhupāda: (aside) some more . . . (indistinct) Dr. Schumacher: (indistinct) . . . I'm making the argument that are we sort of accepted and authorised for containing forces of modern industrial society and therefore it will come to a bad end. I don't think. I quite agree, I don't think that completes the register of the cardinal sins, or deadly sins rather, deadly sins. Of course we have seven of them, to distinguish. We . . . (indistinct) . . . only two. Revatīnandana: Yes how . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Then the animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex and gambling. If one is supporting these then we don't take him as disciple. All in one word, one who is not God conscious he is not a disciple. That is our general conclusion. It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that: "Those who are demons, āsuraṁ bhāva , atheist, they do not believe in God or surrender to God and these demon class men are divided into four classes. The first class, or the first division is miscreants, always committing sinful life, miscreants— duṣkṛtinaḥ. Duṣkṛtinaḥ means impious activities and the next, mūḍhāḥ —rascal, fool and the third narādhamāḥ . The lowest of the mankind and the fourth even though he is advanced, according to modern education, his actual knowledge has been taken away by the illusory energy." "These class of men they never become God conscious they never surrender to God. So our test is, if one is not God conscious, then he must be in either of these groups, from this logical conclusion. He may be outwardly very decent, but because he is not God conscious he does not understand what is the science of God, we do not take him as decent. We take him in these groups." Papworth: I'm not sure I have made my point. You see what I was going on to say, probably. Is that I believe that the dominant institutions of modern life are in the control of evil forces. They are not controlled by ordinary people who at least I feel are decent and that if people did control these forces I think that there would be a basis for spiritual progress in human affairs. Where at the moment there is none, now all you are saying in your philosophies seems to me to the great effect that it is possible in modern society for very very small but very powerful minority of people to manipulate millions and billions of people in ways which they cannot stop from doing. When you think last year £10,000,000 was spent on advertising cigarettes. Prabhupāda: Hm? Papworth: You say man mustn't smoke. How much is. Prabhupāda: Ten millions. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . advertising. Haṁsadūta: Pounds for advertising cigarettes. Smoking. Papworth: Smoking. Haṁsadūta: Ten million pounds was spent for just advertising. Prabhupāda: Yes that I see in your country, all big big boards—boarding, cigarette and wine advertisment. Papworth: The majority of people all through history have never been interested in verbal articulation about questing for God, this has always been a minority concern but common people have always been ready to follow positive lead, you are finding this in your work, but you come to this barrier where the majority who do not have the independence of mind. That those who have decided to follow you possess and . . . Prabhupāda: No they were always independent. Papworth: You're principles of that defect. Prabhupāda: It was not obligatory, I simply preached I never asked them that you become dependent on me. I simply invited them just like I have invited you. We are talking, you are independent so similarly I invited them. Dr. Schumacher: That's what he said, that's what he said. Prabhupāda: Yes, so we keep everyone's independence but we talk on philosophy, we give them prasāda , we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, God's holy name this is our process. So one becomes attracted he becomes intimately related. We don't touch anyones, neither God touches, God also does not interfere with your independence because God is fully independent and you are part and parcel of God so you have also got independence, the quality, but he is unlimitedly independent. *We are limitedly independent, so as in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that you surrender unto me I shall solve your all problems, I shall give you protection. Now he does not force him, although he is God, he can force him. "You must, I must force you," no no he doesn't do so. In another place Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna, yathecchasi tathā kuru . . . eh? In the eighteenth chapter. Pradyumna: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Yathecchasi tathā kuru , he after instructing Bhagavad*-gītā he said that I have spoken to you everything, now whatever you like you can do. That means he is not touching his independence, "Whatever you like". So even God does not touch individual person's independence. So independence is always there. Pradyumna: "Thus I have explained to you the most confidential of all knowledge. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do." Prabhupāda: That's it. "Do what you wish to do, not that I'm forcing you, it is up to you to accept this philosophy or not." So we are preaching entirely. These boys and girls they have joined voluntarily there was no bribe giving and I. What can I give them? I am sannyāsī I have no money to bribe them. (laughs) Or to give them some material facilities, what can I give them? You and all European and American what can I give you? So they have voluntarily joined, "Yes it is nice". Therefore we are confident that if this movement is pushed on just in this way wherever we shall go the intelligent class of men will join, there is no doubt about it. Revatīnandana: See once I heard Śrīla Prabhupāda say that the . . . actually, that we agree that the general mass of people they are being misled. They are not so much demonic but they are being misled. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: By general, by a nucleus of leaders in high positions who are very much demonic. Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). This is stated in the Bhāgavad Gi . . . *Bhāgavatam* , that a blind man is leading thousands of blind men. So what will be the result? The leader is blind and the followers are blind, so what will be the good result? Both will fall in the ditch. Andhā yathāndhair , one who is leader he must have eyes, he must have full knowledge, what is what, then it will be all right. So not the people are to be blamed but because the demoniac leaders are misleading them therefore the social condition is like that. So if the leaders of the society they will try to understand what is God, what is God consciousness, how people can be happy. Then the society can be changed immediately because the others they will follow the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate. (BG 3.21) Papworth: Are you saying that Kṛṣṇa conscious, people imbued with Krishna consciousness are somehow going to be victorious in the political dogfight? Prabhupāda: Well generally we are not interested in politics, but if need be we can take politics also because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is all pervading. It includes religion, philosophy, politics, sociology, science everything, everything. It is all pervading, God is everywhere it is not that God is only church, in the church or in the temple, God is everywhere. Guest: What you mean by, "Need be"? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: What you mean by, "If need be"? Prabhupāda: Need be, when we see that the politicians are simply making embezzlement we may take part in politics also. Guest: Isn't that now? Prabhupāda: Now we are not, we few people what can we do? Suppose if I am made the president of the United States, what can I do there? The whole atmosphere is polluted, it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. I cannot do anything, so why should I waste my time, to become elected as president. I know that I shall not be able to do anything, the whole atmosphere is polluted. Papworth: But are you worried about pollution? Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: You're not really worried about pollution, are you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . otherwise why are we pushing on this movement, if we are not worried? We are seeing that people are suffering on account of this pollution. So as they are God's sons, they are misled, so I'm also God's son, let me help my brothers. That is the necessity of this movement. Otherwise why am in old age—80 years old I'm travelling all over the world. I am feeling for them, that these poor people being misled, let me try to save them to my best capacity, that is all. Papworth: But in your travelling by must, your aeroplane is adding to the pollution, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes pollution without . . . Revatīnandana: He is using, this word is being used two different ways, your way of using pollution and his way, two different words. Vicitravīrya: He is talking about material pollution. Revatīnandana: He is talking about smog in the air, the air pollution . . . Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. Revatīnandana: You're talking generally . . . Prabhupāda: That includes the greater pollution. That includes the greater pollution. Papworth: (indistinct) . . . New York, when you talked about pollution in . . . Prabhupāda: Our pollution means when one is not God conscious, he is polluted. Papworth: Ah! Prabhupāda: Our pollution. Papworth: I see. Prabhupāda: And your pollution includes that. Papworth: No I was using it in a technical sense. Prabhupāda: No, not technical sense, anyone who is not God conscious he is polluted, that's all. It doesn't matter what he is, that is our philosophy. Guest: Yes. Revatīnandana: You see, just like devotees they like to live simply, in villages, they like to do it. They just grow some food, have a temple there, cows and they offer the food and the milk on the altar to the Lord and take that food and study the *Vedas* and become God conscious. Devotees like to live simply in villages that our, that's the Vedic culture, to live simply and God conscious life in the village. Prabhupāda: Now I see these village, so many vacant lands are there. So much that is not been utilised properly and people are being dragged in the city, London and they are struggling hard. The basic principle of civilisation is polluted, you see. Nobody is producing food everyone is producing knives and spoons, that's all. But knife and spoon will be required when there is food. But nobody is producing food, everyone is interested in factory, that we have also condemned this industry. Actually this modern industrialisation is spoiling the whole scheme of God. Why? They should be engaged in producing food and then they will have enough time for becoming God conscious. You have very nicely described all these industrial deficiencies, I have very much appreciated. Unnecessarily they are engaged to become śūdras and fourth class and tenth class men, due to this industry. So our Gandhi he tried to keep the men in the village, he had an organisation, village organisation. That was a very nice scheme but his disciples, Jawaharlal Nehru and company, he made all digged up. He wanted to become like America, overnight. So he changed the whole policy therefore India is in a confusion. Papworth: Who was it changed the policy? I think. Several: Nehru. Prabhupāda: Nehru, yes. He wanted that India should be America, overnight immediately. We have got our independence, so he deprecated anything Indian. Papworth: I seem to recall Gandhi's last message to Nehru was disband the Congress Party. Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Disband the Congress Party it was Gandhi's last message to Nehru. Prabhupāda: Disband the Congress Party? Papworth: Yeah. Prabhupāda: I do not know, but they are sticking to Congress Party. Papworth: (laughs) Prabhupāda: His daughter is now prime minister, she is also in Congress Party. No, no it is not a question of Gandhi or Nehru, people should live natural life. God has given you land, God has given you cows, so if you simply keep one or two cows for each man and if you have got a little land your whole economic question is solved. There is no economic problem at all. Papworth: Is there enough land in India to give everybody several acres? Prabhupāda: If there is no India why not provide here in England? Why do you differentiate from India and England? That is not . . . lack of God consciousness. Papworth: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is lack of consciousness, why you are thinking that England is yours? It is God's. Why America is thinking that America is ours? The God consciousness means everything belongs to God and if you take total land of the whole earthly planet there is enough potential for producing food for ten times population as what it is now. God is so perfect, but we are making this ah, turmoil, "Oh you are Indian, you don't come here", or "You are British you don't come here." That is our creation, God has given enough land, enough land. In Africa, in Australia I have seen so much vacant land, lying without any utilisation but they have created this clique, "No no you can come here." Why? Lack of God consciousness. Dr. Schumacher: If it were just a matter of cultivated area per head of the population, the British would go to India.(laughter) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Schumacher: The amount of cultivated area per head of the population. Prabhupāda: If you make God center, then there is no difficulty British going to India or India coming to England. Revatīnandana: As I was reading. Have you noticed how the rains are stopping around the world? Ah? You've noticed? It's raining less and less in my state of California, here in England, in India, North Africa everywhere it is raining less. Dr. Schumacher: Thank goodness. Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: How are you going to grow any foodstuffs when it stops raining? Prabhupāda: Yes the real key is in the hand of God, if it stops raining all your programme and philosophy will go to hell. And that is stated in the . . . predicted, that as we advance in this age there will be no more rain and there will be scarcity of food and on the other hand the government will levy heavy tax, people will become mad. Revatīnandana: So that. *Prabhupāda: Locate that in Bhagavat : anāvṛṣṭyā, anāvṛṣṭyā durbhikṣa*-kara-pīḍitāḥ (SB 12.2.9) That is already predicted that these things will happen. Devotee: Excuse me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is coming there will be cloud in the sky, there will be no rain simply lightning these are all predicted and gradually at the end of this age there will be no food grains. Papworth: No progress? Prabhupāda: Food grains. Others: Food grains. Guest: (indistinct) . . . that are grown. Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, fourth chapter. Guest: (indistinct) . . . grow. Prabhupāda: So the only solution is to make this propaganda that people may become God conscious. Now the simple method we are recommending to chant the holy name of God. We don't say that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Suppose you are Christian you have got God's name, so you chant that, where is the objection? If the Christian people are requested that you chant God's name. Papworth: They do! Prabhupāda: Eh? Papworth: Hallelujah! Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotees: Hallelujah. Vicitravīrya: I think it means praise the Lord or something similar to that, it is in the Bible. It means to praise the Lord, praise God. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Papworth: Hallelujah. Pradyumna: It's like Jaya . Prabhupāda: Eh? Pradyumna: It's like Jaya . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also good but they must come to God, at least. Without coming to God simply theorisation, has no solution. People must come to God. Papworth: On that we are completely agreed. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to do that. You write in your papers don't be a rascal, come to God, then everything will be solved. Papworth: My difficulty is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: I don't say that you write in our book, you write that Christian religion, Christian people who believe in God, so please chant the holy name of God in every house, every factory everywhere. Just see how it changes. Make this simple and we don't say that you, you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa we say that you chant the holy name of God. If you have got the holy name of God you chant it. Papworth: Well Kṛṣṇa is a very beautiful name. Prabhupāda: That's nice, but if you have got objection you can chant your beautiful name, what you have got. Papworth: But when I am writing in my journal, people are always saying to me, "This is all very well but you are not writing about spiritual matters." When I come here you are discussing spiritual matters but you don't do very much on practical matters. Prabhupāda: Eh? We are practical, we are very practical. We are providing so many men who are living in nice house, nice consciousness, nice food. What do you want more? Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: You can live with us and see. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: But as soon as you will hear of the restriction you will go away. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: "There is no tea, Sir." (laughs) In the morning you will require tea we cannot supply . . . (aside) Hm. You have got that? Pradyumna: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Ah! Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Hm. Let me have it. Pradyumna: . . . parjanyaḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah, that is another thing. Here it is stated, predicted: *The prajāḥ , the citizens will be exploited by the greedy government officers, it is clearly stated. Rājanyaiḥ, rājanyaiḥ means the government officers, prajā hi lubdhai, lubdhaiḥ —greed, greedy, lubdhaiḥ means greedy. Yes they take to politics for exploitation to become Minister and exploit, that's all. Everyone knows it . Prajā hi lubdhai rājanyair nirghṛṇair dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ , their profession is just like thieves and rogues, ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā . In this way when there will be too much exploitation, yāsyanti giri-kānanam. They will flee away from the . . . will go to the . . . take shelter in the hills and forests. Revatīnandana: Already the hippies are doing it. Fleeing from the cities to live like animals in the hills. I have just talked with them in North Devonshire. That's a desperate condition. Prabhupāda: Here it is said: In this age even for a little money, I need from your pocket. Even if you are own man, I can kill and take it, take the money. Even if you are my relative so because I need that money, little money what you have got, I will kill you. These are the symptoms given: In this age nobody will give protection to old father, here. And even own children, wife, simply for the sense gratification he will give up all connection. The description, if you come some time I will explain. Now, as gradually this age will make progress then people will lose interest in religion, in truthfulness, in cleanliness, in forgiveness, in mercifulness by the advancement of this age people will reduce their duration of life, bodily strength and memory. These are the predictions. You may be, whatever you may be, it doesn't matter, if you have got money, then you are respectable man, that's all. (laughs) And it is also mentioned, just this . . . anad anāḍhyatā eva asādhutve if you have no money, then you are dishonest, sādhutve dambha eva tu, if you are very proud then you become honest: Eh? Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur, dāmpatye , husband wife relationship will go on only on liking. It is not that, "oh (s)he is my wife and my responsibility to maintain her and he is my husband it is my duty to serve him." These considerations will not be there, if I don't like, then I don't like, you go away, I go away. And man or woman the relationship will continue only on sex understanding, ratir . And a brāhmaṇa means having a sacred thread, that is all, he may not be any qualifications. And marriage will be simply by agreement. Hm. One will be considered very expert if he can maintain a small family. He will be considered as Lord of eh? Letchmore. Devotees: (laughs) *Prabhupāda: If he can simply maintain a small family, ah . . . dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba*-bharaṇaṁ yaśo 'rthe . And people will be religious simply for reputation, "no this man is religious" that's all. Revatīnandana: This is all five thousand years ago this was written down and it wasn't like that then. This is predictions. *Dr. Schumacher: It would be interesting to read this side*-by-side with the Book of Revelations. Revatīnandana: Yes, I read that 'Book of Revelations' recently and I can't make heads nor tails out of it. This is very clear. (laughs) Guest: . . . (indistinct) Revatīnandana: I think everyone can make it in his own way. *Prabhupāda: Now it is mentioned here also that: lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam , people will consider to become . . . he has become very beautiful by keeping long hair. Devotees: (laugh) *Prabhupāda: That is also . . . lāvaṇyaṁ keśa*-dhāraṇam , that we see practically. These are predictions, five thousand years these predictions were made. Revatīnandana: Prabhupāda, can I ask, what is the very last verse? Prabhupāda: Eh? Revatīnandana: What is the very last verse in the twelfth Canto? I heard it once. The last verse. Yeah, in the twelfth Canto. I once, I think I read it in one of the books but I can't remember it, it is very nice. I remember. Something about this age. Prabhupāda: It is there, in the third fourth chapter. Revatīnandana: The very end? Prabhupāda: janma bhāvaṁ aniruddha . Here? sundanti devi . . . (indistinct) . . . the last verse is: Revatīnandana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: "I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by chanting his holy name one can become relieved from all sinful life." Revatīnandana: That's the last verse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: Well, Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Papworth: All your . . . (indistinct) . . . seem to be busy being born again, it is very wonderful to see it happening. Prabhupāda: Born again? Revatīnandana: And Christ said. "Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God". Prabhupāda: That means that in the kingdom of God there is life. Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: He is not dead. Papworth: That's right. *Prabhupāda: Kingdom of God, the impersonalists they think it is void. No, it is not void, there is spiritual life that we also say, that we also say Bhagavad*-gītā . There is description of the spiritual world, how they are enjoying there. There is also aeroplane. Guest: Huh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: (laughs) Revatīnandana: He is. He wasn't quarrelling, he was observing that. He said that we appear to be very busy being born in that way. Prabhupāda: That means, that the Christian religion accepts this, that there is life after death. And that life can be in the kingdom of God. You associate with God personally, talk with him, this is possible. We also say like that. This is our unnatural life that we are accepting death, this is not our natural. Our natural life is there is no death. Papworth: Death has no dominion. Prabhupāda: No. In the spiritual kingdom there is no birth no death. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. (BG 15.6) Everything is described in the śastra , one has to take to it and become happy, that is all. Papworth: Well if I must say the deepened night has crept upon our talk I think we should . . . (indistinct) . . . a little rest for your sake. Prabhupāda: Yes, no we are not fatigued because in spiritual life there is no fatigueness. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Whereas in the material life there is, birth, death, fatigueness, thirsty, hunger so many nonsense. Devotees: (laughs) Papworth: I'm was not thinking of your spirit but of your body. Prabhupāda: No, we are spiritually conscious, we transcend the body. Revatīnandana: One thing I'm still thinking about, do you really think that if Prabhupāda flies from place to place to preach this that the way to see it is that he is creating smog? Papworth: It is one way of seeing it. Revatīnandana: I know, but do you think that is the proper way of seeing it? Vicitravīrya: Like Satish Kumar he was a Jain, right? And then he joined Gandhi's movement, Gandhi doesn't say that if there is a facility you don't use it, he travelled on trains and like this. Papworth: Trains are another matter. Devotees: (laughs) Papworth: Very dangerous. Prabhupāda: You have got all very different interpretation only. Revatīnandana: The point is that there is so many millions of people in the cities all over the world and they are completely lost and they have bad leaders. Prabhupāda: But we have no such philosophy that we cannot ride on an aeroplane or motorcar, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says: pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma . One has to travel all over the world to preach this cult, so how you will go? Papworth: Don't you find travelling in an aeroplane rather undignified? Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the next dignified way? Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can suggest. Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can suggest. Papworth: Steamer? Prabhupāda: Yes I came first in the USA on boat, ship, oh it was so troublesome practically I was dying in the Atlantic. Devotees: (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) I become seasick, I was not eating at all. Papworth: On the ship? Prabhupāda: Yes. Papworth: Ah. Guest: It seems to me, that as soon as you step into an aeroplane you accept the whole modern industrial world, by that one simple action. This is the logical conclusion. Prabhupāda: We don't decry the industry we say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and do whatever you like. Guest: Hm. Papworth: But don't you think the Luddites were all Kṛṣṇa conscious than the people who follow them and defeated them. Prabhupāda: Eh? Vicitravīrya: The Luddites they were a movement of angry. Papworth: And breaking up machines. Vicitravīrya: Yeah, acted industrially they actually broke up machines. Revatīnandana: They didn't, they lost didn't they? The point is that. Papworth: And now we are confronting a blank wall of thermonuclear destruction that is the price of their defeat. Revatīnandana: Yes therefore the situation is desperate situation. The world is in a desperate condition. *Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is that you remain your post, you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa that is our position. We don't say that you change your position, no. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu . . . you kindly lend your aural reception, that much we want. We don't say that you change your position. Instead of becoming industrial you become something else, no. That we don't. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious the pollution will be over, that's all . . . ceto darpaṇa mārjanam . Revatīnandana: You see, if you . . . if at this stage you say: "Oh, I won't use the aeroplane I don't hold with the television sets, I don't approve of . . . " Prabhupāda: No, why should you no? Revatīnandana: The newspaper. No I'm saying if they say that. If you say that, then you are saying all right nothing can be done. Prabhupāda: No no. Revatīnandana: We have to use these things now, you have to use these things right now. Papworth: He is doing something, refusing . . . Revatīnandana: You have to use it to stop the condition, later on you can decentralise. Papworth: You can join my international campaign I've started. I'm the members so far but our slogan is, "Buy a book today and help stamp out television." Well, one it's a start. Prabhupāda: No, why. Papworth: You join me . . . Prabhupāda: We don't condemn. Revatīnandana: We can immediately. Papworth: You could increase my numbers by 100%. Revatīnandana: We can immediately reach millions of people with a television set, with kīrtana and our philosophy. Prabhupāda: So why should we? Revatīnandana: Why shouldn't we use it? Guest: Because it is polluted by the great. Revatīnandana: No, our philosophy, I speak the same philosophy over the TV as I do in this room . . . Guest: Yes but . . . (indistinct) . . . isn't it? Revatīnandana: . . . with the same exact effect. Kṛṣṇa is of . . . Guest: I don't think you have understood . . . Pradyumna: It is ridiculous to try to ride a bicycle to stop you know a major devastation. Ridiculous . . . Papworth: . . . (indistinct) Pradyumna: The logic is ridiculous. To try to ride a bicycle. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is that everything is created by God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Therefore everything is good because God is good everything he creates is good, but eh . . . Prabhupāda: The good must be used for the good. Haṁsadūta: It is misused eh, it must be used for God. Then it is misuse . . . now everything is misused just like you are claiming England someone is claiming India and other claiming America. If we agree that everything belongs to God then everything can be divided, eh, or can be distributed properly, in God consciousness. Papworth: Like the atomic bomb? Haṁsadūta: Yes, even atomic bombs. If necessary. Prabhupāda: Yeah. We shall use the atomic bomb for the demons. (laughter) Vicitravīrya: The atomic bomb existed five thousand years ago Prabhupāda can tell you. Prabhupāda: It is the use of atom, just like Hanumān. Hanumān was a great devotee of Lord Rāmacandra but he set fire to the kingdom of Rāvaṇa not for his purpose but for the cause of Rāmacandra. So we can use the atomic bomb for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām , he has got two businesses. To give protection to the devotees, faithful and to kill the demons. Guest: I can't understand, this seems to be a very mistaken attitude from the East and from India. Why the . . . Prabhupāda: Why you are again bringing India? We are talking generally. Guest: Yes I specifically do, do. Prabhupāda: Why? Guest: Applying philosophical and spiritual truths. Prabhupāda: Ooh! air means ooh. Guest: Well if, if you. Prabhupāda: I've not come here on behalf of India. Guest: There are a lot of movements from India, coming to the West. Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. That Christian movement for Jerusalem, that means it is Jerusalem. Why you have accepted? Why you have accepted? Guest: Why do I accept it? Prabhupāda: Yes, why you think Christians are Englishmen? Guest: I didn't say I did. Prabhupāda: Well, because it is produced in India therefore you should simply stick India? Guest: It isn't the question. No it isn't because it's in India, it's because at the present time philosophical truths are being applied. Prabhupāda: But India may be rejected. Guest: No not necessarily India. Prabhupāda: But necessarily we have rejected, we have rejected. Guest: It just happens to be . . . you're being over sensitive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: They happened to be from India. Prabhupāda: No I mean to say the government has no program for pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are preaching no intoxication. Now the government introducing intoxication. So what can be done? Now the government . . . Gandhi started prohibition, now the present government is introducing wines to the society and encouraging it, "yes you drink wine". Guest: You accept material goods and you don't accept. Prabhupāda: We don't want material. Guest: . . . moral . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . or anything, we want spiritual that is all. That is our philosophy. Revatīnandana: Everything used for sense gratification is material and everything used in the service of Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Prabhupāda: That is spiritual. (break) Revatīnandana: We've got spiritual tape recorders, spiritual lamps, spiritual buildings. Guest: That is verbal trickery. I don't think . . . Revatīnandana: No it is not verbal. Guest: It is. Revatīnandana: No it is your inability to perceive it. Prabhupāda: You don't understand that. Revatīnandana: It is your inability to perceive it. Prabhupāda: I have given that example, the iron rod, put it in the fire, it becomes warm then it becomes red hot and when it is red hot is it iron rod or not a fire? Tell me? Papworth: The irons. Prabhupāda: The iron rod you put into the fire it becomes warm, warm warmer then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot do you treat it as iron rod or fire? Guest: No redhot? Prabhupāda: Yes, so similarly by spiritual activities you become spiritualised, that is the point, that is the point. Guest: That is material, that's all. Prabhupāda: No no. Guest: That is material. Prabhupāda: Therefore you require training, training you cannot understand. I'm giving the example, the iron rod when it is put into the fire it becomes warmer warmer at last it becomes red hot. So when it is red hot you touch anywhere it will burn. That means it has got the quality of the fire by associating with the fire. Similarly if you associate with spiritual understanding then you become spiritualised. Anything associated with spiritual activities it becomes spiritualised. Just like we offer you the prasādam , what is the difference between prasādam and ordinary food? The same puri , same kachorī , or the same vegetable others are eating also but how this prasādam has become spiritualised? Because it is offered to the God. Similarly everything you do in connection with the service of the Lord that is spiritualised. Actually in the ultimate sense there is nothing as material because everything is from God so there cannot be anything material because God is spiritual. But when we forget the connection of God with anything, that is material . . . just like cloud in the sky, darkness actually in the sky there is no darkness but when there is cloud covering the sun it is called darkness, but when the cloud is not there, it is light. Sunlight. So when there is no forgetfulness of God, there is all spiritual. Schumacher: Well I think, the problem whether to use an aeroplane which I've never experienced as a great problem. Hm, shouldn't worry you. He has to go back to Central Africa. (laughter) Prabhupāda: He can go gradually. (laughs) Guest: It certainly seems a more dignified way than on the back of a camel. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That's nice. Guest: We are suffering so many disadvantages through the . . . through the modern civilisation that I think a few advantages. Prabhupāda: No. Not for the modern civilisation but for forgetfulness of God that is our proposal. You can advance in modern civilisation but don't forget God, that is our point. Papworth: Well if you could create some Kṛṣṇa consciousness among the Arabs and Jews so that they would reopen the Suez Canal. Prabhupāda: That you can do. You are very much anxious, we leave the business to you. Papworth: Then I could go back by ship. (laughs) Revatīnandana: The point is that if we want the people to become happy to go back to a simpler life, live in a village and be happy there in a simple peaceful life we have to first make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. For that we will use everything. Papworth: In twenty years time they will have absolutely no choice. This country, your āśrama here it will be a first aid post with millions of people pouring out of London looking for food they cannot find, starving. Revatīnandana: That may be, but before they will do that they will fight to the death to get it from other countries. Papworth: To get what? Revatīnandana: They will fight to the death to get the food and land from other countries. They will never come out of the city peacefully unless they are God conscious. Papworth: They will when they are starving. Revatīnandana: No they will fight first there will be violence and there will be destruction. They are not so rational as you are, most people. Papworth: Well perhaps they are not as . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) Revatīnandana: They are very attached, they are very attached. Vicitravīrya: (indistinct) . . . before that when . . . Prabhupāda: Sarve sukhino bhavantu : let everyone become happy that is our plan. Papworth: Well I think it was you who said it, men found the paradise, or make this world into a paradise they would at once because of some compelling evidence in their natures turn and destroy it. What have you to say to that? Revatīnandana: He said this psychologist once said that if man somehow turned this world into paradise, something in them would make them turn round and destroy it, what do you say to that? Prabhupāda: Who did say? Revatīnandana: He says the same man who creates the paradise something in them will make them turn around and destroy it, the same man who created will destroy it. Vicitravīrya: This was a western psychologist who said this. Revatīnandana: So he is asking about that. Prabhupāda: I create something good and destroy it? Revatīnandana: Yes, he says that this psychologist said that men will do that, so. He wants to know what you say? Prabhupāda: That is material, that is material. Just like father creates money and the son inherits and he destroys, we have seen it. A rich father's son he got money without any labour and destroyed. He doesn't like to remain a rich man he becomes a poor man. That is in the material world, everything is changing therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means changing. These are the functions of the material world, that is not spiritual world. Spiritual world everything is permanent. That is the conception of this material world, psychologist. Revatīnandana: What is that verse where Kṛṣṇa says on achieving this he thinks there is no higher gain? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the highest perfection, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. This is the Vedic version. Papworth: What is the translation? Prabhupāda: Hm? Papworth: What is the translation? Prabhupāda: If you become situated in God consciousness then you will cease to . . . that I have already explained, no hankering no lamentation. You will be satisfied, now I have got everything. And if one is situated in God consciousness, if there is greatest type of danger he is not agitated because he is confident that God is there if he likes he can kill me if he likes he can save me, I am prepared for everything. Dr. Schumacher: I think I must. I thank you and I excuse myself. Prabhupāda: Yes thank you very much. Dr. Schumacher: I have to go to the other side of London. Prabhupāda: No we don't detain you. So you have got your car, no? Vicitravīrya: Now we will take him back. Prabhupāda: All right take him. Thank you very much. So you are all thoughtful men just consider and try to convince people about the importance of this movement that is our request. Yes. *Devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu*-pādāya . . . (cut) (end) Conversation -- August 5, 1973, London (Conversation with Professor Lewcock from Cambridge University and Others) Revatīnandana: So this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. This is Professor Ronald Lewcock from Cambridge University, and I don't . . . (break) name. Professor Lewcock: (indistinct) . . . Sanzoni, from Ceylon. Prabhupāda: Ceylon. Professor Lewcock: Sri Lanka. Prabhupāda: So you are also teacher here? Professor Lewcock: No . . . (indistinct) . . . working with the . . . Prabhupāda: So you want chair? Professor Lewcock: No, I'm very happy, honestly. Thank you. Prabhupāda: And this girl? *Haṁsadūta: This girl is Vṛndā*-devī—she's Śivānanda's wife. Prabhupāda: Oh! She has come . . . Haṁsadūta: From Germany, from Hamburg. Prabhupāda: Ah. So they are not living together? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: (laughs) You don't like Śivānanda? (laughter) He is nice boy. He is a very good boy. *Vṛndā*-devī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. I think you are also initiated? *Vṛndā*-devī: I have been initiated since . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So Śivānanda is very nice boy. You live peacefully and preach this cult. Heh? *Vṛndā*-devī: And pray to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that problem? Live husband and wife together. That's all. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so far I know, he is one of my best students—Śivānanda. Very sincere boy, very devoted. I think you are fortunate to have such devotee husband. You should not neglect. According to Vedic civilization, when there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it is not taken very seriously. Professor . . .? Professor Lewcock: Lewcock. Prabhupāda: Lewcar. Professor Lewcock: Lewcock. Prabhupāda: What is spelling? *Revatīnandana: L*-e-w-c-o-c-k. Prabhupāda: (aside) So you want to close this? So you have known something of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen our books? Professor Lewcock: Yes, I have indeed. Prabhupāda: Which book you have read? *Professor Lewcock: The Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: As It Is . Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā is accepted as preliminary study for understanding God. What is your opinion? Professor Lewcock: True. Prabhupāda: What is your opinion? Professor Lewcock: Oh, I am quite sure that it is a remarkable book full of many truths. May I ask you a question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: As I understand it, the, one of the beliefs is that the senses mislead human beings, and that . . . is that incorrect? Revatīnandana: (explaining the question) The senses mislead human beings. That is . . . one of the beliefs of the *Gītā* , he understands, is that the senses mislead human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: And that in order to find God one has to objurgate the senses. Prabhupāda: No. One has to purify. Professor Lewcock: Ah. Prabhupāda: Because just like in my life I have never smoked. I never. So . . . I am giving an example. And somebody smokes. So smoking is not necessary, but somebody smokes—somebody does not. How it is? It is due to association. If I mix with smokers' association, then gradually I learn how to smoke. Similarly, if I mix with devotees' association, then I become gradually devotee. Professor Lewcock: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: So the sense is the same, but due to association it becomes polluted. So again by association it can be purified. But you cannot stop the senses. That is not the prohibition. Senses will remain, but for understanding what is God, we have to purify the senses. Professor Lewcock: Mrs. Sanzoni is an artist, and I am an architect by training, and so we both of us work with the senses, and we deal with the sense of vision. Do you consider that that is a handicap in any way, that the concentration that we have to put into our vision, into the study of responses to vision, sensual responses to vision and color, can be a handicap to . . .? Prabhupāda: Huh? Revatīnandana: The question is that both Professor Lewcock and Mrs. Sanzoni—he is an architect . . . Prabhupāda: Mrs. Sanzoni . . . she is . . .? Revatīnandana: She is an artist. Prabhupāda: Artist. Revatīnandana: So they both have to utilize their senses, their eyes, etc., for their work all the time. Is that a handicap for spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: No. That also can be puri . . . just like Mrs. Sanjiva is an artist, so she can paint Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The same art, artistic sense—just like all these pictures, they have been done by my students. Yes. All these pictures, any pictures we have got. So they are not accustomed to do this. They were painting some hippy ideas, some bamboos, like that. *Later on, when they are instructed that, "You paint this idea," they painted very nice. People are astonished that how European, American boys, they have painted such nice picture. So that is the process of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means: *The bhakti , devotional . . . bhakti*-yoga means sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ —one has to first of all forget that he is such and such, such and such: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Ceylonese," "I am German." No. I am pure soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . When one is situated in that spiritual platform, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," that is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. How to understand that I am spirit soul? People generally, they are in the bodily concept of life. Just like you say that Mrs. Such*-and-such, he's Ceylonese. "Ceylonese" means this body. You are Englishman means this body. So just like she has got this white dress, you have got this black-colored dress, so this is not very serious consideration. *Similarly, this body has no serious consideration. Unfortunately, at the modern education the body is giving more consideration. And they are fighting—"I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am Ceylonese," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am . . ." So for God*-realization one has to first of all sacrifice this bodily concept of life. Professor Lewcock: It is really that question of sacrifice that I was interested in. To what extent is it necessary to sacrifice the senses to find spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to understand really what you are. If you are wrongly thinking that you are coat—so what extent? Unless you forget that you are not coat—up to that extent. Not that fifty percent I have now understood. No. You have to forget that . . . actually you are not coat, so you have to forget it—to that extent. Because I am not actually this coat, so why should I consider that I am this coat and this shirt? This is covering of my body. So I have got my spiritual body, and mind, intelligence, ego is the subtle covering, and earth, water, air, fire, sky, the gross body. That is gross . . . two coverings. So when one dies, that means the outward gross covering is given up, but the soul is within the subtle covering—mind, intelligence. Therefore according to the mind's situation, the mind, intelligence carries the soul to another gross body. That is called transmigration of the soul. Professor Lewcock: But this occupation, preoccupation with the sensory things, is not in itself something which is going to stop the advancement of the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you become too much engrossed with the occupation of the senses, that is material state. Professor Lewcock: Can that withhold advancement, can prevent advancement? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) Can that kind of material use of the senses, can it be an impediment to advancement, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. Therefore we have to purify. Just like this hearing: if you hear something material activities, then you get one kind of information. Similarly, if you hear about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is another information. The senses used for the purpose, you get different types of knowledge. So in order to receive spiritual knowledge we have to stop the material activities and turn our activity to the spiritual side; then gradually we will understand. Professor Lewcock: To what extent does bhakti embrace only love of Kṛṣṇa? To what extent does it embrace love of other human beings, of other people living on the material state? Prabhupāda: If you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love human being very perfectly. But you are talking of human being, but why you are not talking of other beings? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: The living entities, they are not only limited with the human beings. The living entities, there are forms—8,400,000. Out of that, human being is about 400,000. The major portion of the living entities, there are 8,000,000's, 8,000,000's. But because we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, therefore we rejecting this 8,000,000's and taking consideration only 400,000. This is due to lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he will not take to the 400,000. He will take 8,400,000, because all living entities are part and parcel of God. Just like you are, English man, she is Ceylonese, she is German, but we are all human beings. Similarly, there may be living entities in different dress—somebody as tree, somebody as fish, somebody as cat, somebody as dog, somebody as king, somebody as demigod, somebody as human being—but all of them are living entities in different dresses only. So if you are eager to do something well to the living entities, why you should limit yourself to the human being? That is my first question. Professor Lewcock: Yes. I agree with that. I certainly agree. But does bhakti embrace the love of . . . *Prabhupāda: All living entities. Bhakti embraces all living entities. That is the advantage of bhakti*-yoga . His vision is not imperfect. Therefore this question about human being, why you are interested with the human being only? That is my question. Why not other living entities, other living beings? Why? This is imperfect knowledge. Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Limited. Imperfect knowledge. And because you have got imperfect knowledge, therefore there is confusion. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one has to accept all living entities, because all living entities are part and parcel of God. So if you want to do harm to a vegetable, you have to consider. But because they have got imperfect knowledge, they are taking consideration of a few living entities, limited, within his circle, and others are neglected and they are ill*-treated. And therefore they are accumulating sinful life, and therefore they are suffering. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Do you have a concept of sin as such? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are prohibiting four sinful pillars—no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. These are sinful life. Yes. Professor Lewcock: I see. And suffering is a sin . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you become . . . because just like if you break law, then you are punished. Even if you eat a little more than your capacity, immediately there is indigestion, diarrhea. So you cannot break the law, strict laws of material nature. If you break, that is sinful and you will be punished. This is sinful and pious. If you go exactly to the laws of nature, then it is pious. If you break, then you are sinful. This is not difficult to understand. Professor Lewcock: No. Not at all. But to what extent would doubt be regarded as a sin, or an element in sin? . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (explaining) What is doubt, he wants to know. Prabhupāda: Doubt is good, provided if you make progress. But if you stick to your own principle, and doubt there is, that is not good. When there is doubt, then you go to a person who can mitigate your doubt and explain. Yes. But if you stick to your own understanding, tradition, then doubt is not very beneficial. It sets you back. You cannot make progress. So as soon as there is doubt, you go to a person who can explain about your doubt. That is the Vedic injunction. These are the Vedic instruction. Doubt is good; it is the sign of making progress. But if you stick to your original idea, then doubt is setback: "Why I shall accept this? I have got my own tradition. I have got my own religion. I have got my own faith." Then he is doomed. Doubt is very good if you make progress, but if you stick to your own principle, then it is degraded. *Vṛndā*-devī: May I ask something? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Vṛndā*-devī: When you going off somewhere. Because you have doubts, how do you know you can trust them? Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are in need of a medical practitioner. How do you go to your medical practitioner? How do you go? Suppose you are diseased; you have to take advice of a physician. How do you go to your physician? *Vṛndā*-devī: Well, we have to trust someone . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What is that? What she says? Haṁsadūta: She says you have to trust someone. *Prabhupāda: Just see. You have to trust somebody. You have to see the circumstances that, "Here is a physician. He is treating some men, and there are so many patients, and he has got the medical degree." That's all. Otherwise, how you can understand? Yet if you see one man, Dr. Such*-and-such, medical practitioner, and actually you see that some patients are there and he is giving medicine, and you can enquire also whether they are being cured—so these are the external features. With this you have to select. But the injunction is when you are diseased, you must go to a physician to consult. Similarly, when there is doubt you must go to a guru . Now who is a guru , the definition is there. Just like who is a medical practitioner, the definition is there. The medical practitioner must be a passed medical man; *he has passed in his medical examination—that is his qualification—and he is actually working in some hospital. Then you see, "Yes. Here is a medical practitioner." Similarly, the Vedic injunction is—to clear your doubts you must go to a guru . Who is a guru ? Brahma*-niṣṭham : he is fully convinced in the Absolute Truth. That's all. Or one who is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is guru . So you have to begin that "Here is a man; he is talking only of Kṛṣṇa consciousness," then he may be accepted. *There may be pseudo, but that is your fortune. Just like you have to go to a physician, but if the man is a pseudo, fraud, that is your misfortune. But God is in everyone's heart. He leads. If you are actually sincere and serious, He will take you to the real guru . That is God's grace. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-krpaya pāya (CC Madhya 19.151). So Kṛṣṇa is also working. He is seeing how much you are sincere. If you are serious, then He will lead you: "Here is a person . . . (indistinct) . . ." Mrs. Sanzoni: May I ask what is a good exercise against cynicism? Even though sometimes, when people have been betrayed by others, they . . . (indistinct) . . . become cynical and untrustworthy. What is a good exercise? Prabhupāda: Good exercise? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) What is a good exercise against cynicism? If you have been cheated by others, you may become cynical. And what is some remedy for cynicism? Prabhupāda: I am not expert in that science. I am sorry, I cannot give you advice. I am not cynicism. I have got business with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Lewcock: But I think you have already answered that, in a sense, by saying that anybody who has doubts has to find a guru to answer those doubts. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is clear. But I am not expert in cynicism. (chuckles) That is . . . the doubt is already cleared. You cannot make any man as dictionary: whatever you like, you question, and he'll answer. That is not possible. One has got his own line. So if you ask question on that line, that is bona fide. Professor Lewcock: Is it true, master, that when one met a guru who was right for one, one would know it in one's heart? Like a sign, a sign of certainty that one has found a guru who was giving advice that is right, a teaching that is right for that person? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all. Guru means tad viddhi praṇipātena . You have to find out a guru where you can surrender. That is the first business— praṇipātena. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to find out somebody where you can surrender. That is the first business. So then, paripraśa : asking questions. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena. (aside) Find out that verse. But our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice that it is remedy for all kinds of doubt. Now your question . . . what is the actual question? Revatīnandana: "What is the remedy for cynicism, when one becomes cynical?" Prabhupāda: We shall say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not bluff; *that is fact. Bhavauṣadhi . There are many diseases in this material world, but this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is suggested by Parīkṣit Mahārāja, nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhi (SB 10.1.4): the panacea for all kinds of diseases. Now if the question is made in full surrender, then it will be effective. And if you ask some question and think, "If I like, I shall accept it; otherwise I'll reject," so that personal question has no value. Therefore the first business is whether you are questioning after full surrender, "Yes, whatever answer will come from him, I shall accept." Then it is genuine question. And if you want to amend and verify it for your understanding, that is not genuine question. Is it? Professor Lewcock: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So therefore the first thing is praṇipāta. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. You should question to a person where you have fully surrendered: "Yes. Whatever answer you will give, I will accept." Then that question is bona fide. If you again put it in your own test, "Oh, this is not to my liking," then why did you question it? That is un–bona fide questioning. Therefore the question*-answer is allowed only between disciple and guru , not with outsiders. That is the actual position. Because outsider, they will question and waste time. They will not accept the answer. But the process is you shall question to a person where you have surrendered. That is the first. *Samit*-pāṇi śrotrīyaṁ brahma-niṣṭam (MU 1.2.12). Samit-pāṇi means folded hands, yes: "Sir, I have got this doubt." This is surrender. "If you kindly answer it." And that also should be there. Praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34)—surrender and sevayā . So there is some process. But if we simply question whimsically and take some answer and do not follow—simply waste of my time, your time and everything, that's all. You should be prepared to take the answer and take it seriously, then you should question; otherwise don't waste your time. That is the process. *So our answer is bhavauṣadhi . By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , everything— ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12)—everything becomes clear. That is the cha . . . this is the medicine, that a clear's all doubts: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ (CC Antya 20.12). And soon as all doubts are cleared, the blazing fire of material existence is extinguished. Just like the physician: unless you know that, "Whatever medicine the physician will give, I will accept," then what is the use of going there? When the physician prescribes something, and if you say: "No, I don't like this," (laughter) then what is the use of going there? Therefore the first is that, "I am going to this physician. Whatever prescription he will give, I will accept." Then you can go to the physician. The material life is cynicism. Everyone is cynical. *Anyone who is under the condition of this material nature is cynical, but he has forgotten his real identity. Just like a mad, crazy fellow who forgets what he is. He is even asking, rebuking his father, "What, you nonsense, who are you? Why you are standing here?" He forgets even the father. Piśācī —ghostly*-haunted, as one forgets the identity. So every one of us who has forget the identity and is thinking that I am this body is cynical, more or less. So anyone who is identifying with this body is cynical. So this man or that man or . . . there is no question of this man or that—everyone. Therefore the prescription is given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be gradually cleared. *So you can take this medicine and try it. (to lady) You are asking for your case or for somebody else? So anyone can take. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). What is that? Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34)? Pradyumna: *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: So these are the condition—submissive; not to examine him. Therefore everywhere you go, just like if you go to a physician you must go there submissive, not on certain conditions. (pause) *In the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find all the answers. Here is the process how one should approach. So first thing is submissive. Professor Lewcock: But, master, you said a little earlier that doubts were good things, because they . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a good thing. A good thing. Just like doubt whether there is some medicine or not. But when the medicine is given, if you accept it, then it is good. If you don't accept it, then you have wasted your time. Professor Lewcock: Yes. So the doubts are a way of communicating, of creating communication between media . . . Prabhupāda: It is a via media—for progress or regress. (pause) ' Lady Guest: Can I ask a question? . . . (indistinct) . . . I couldn't really understand the answer. When God creates something, you're teaching that He created these two energies, the spiritual energy and the material energy, and that in the material energy there is illusion, also imperfect. I can't really understand that, because when you say it's imperfect, but how can something imperfect be created . . . (indistinct) . . . illusion? Haṁsadūta: (explaining) How can God create something which is imperfect? Lady Guest: It's not criticism; it's . . . Haṁsadūta: We're saying the material world is imperfect, material energy, inferior energy, spiritual energy. So how do we understand that it is imperfect? Prabhupāda: It is not imperfect, but it is imperfect for my understanding. The creation is not imperfect. Just like the sun is always shining, but there is a cloud. The cloud is created under some perfect process. Is it not? Lady Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the cloud is imperfect process for me, because I cannot see the sun. Lady Guest: Our vision is imperfect . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is creating disturbances for my understanding. I am already imperfect, and it is creating disturbance, but the process of creating the cloud is not imperfect. There is a perfect process. So this is the position. So material means when we become imperfect to understand God, that is material. Some impediments comes before me—that is called māyā —which makes me imperfect to understand God. And that is material. Actually, the cloud is created by sun, by the sunshine, so it cannot be imperfect. But it has created an imperfect position for me to see the sun. Therefore material world is called imperfect. Otherwise it is not imperfect. For me it is imperfect—imperfect in the sense that there is hindrance to understand God. Just like due to my this material concept of life—"I am this body"—I am imperfect to understand my soul. But the creation of the body is not imperfect. There is perfect physiology, anatomy, how the bloods are circulating, how food is being transformed into blood, how they are going to the heart, going to the, by the head—that is a perfect creation. But although it is perfect, on account of my misfortune this is checking my understanding of the soul. Is it clear now? Lady Guest: No, I understood what you said, but then my vision or my understanding is imperfect, and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to take lesson from the perfect. That is the advice. Go to guru. Lady Guest: Yes, but my question was how can something imperfect be there? Is it because you are teaching that we are very small parts, so we can't understand what is greater than we? Is that the imperfectness? Revatīnandana: (explaining question) How can anything imperfect be there? Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: How can we be imperfect, even in our vision? Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is called illusion. Lady Guest: But I don't believe we are imperfect. Prabhupāda: Nothing is imperfect; (laughter) therefore it is called illusion. Exact word is used: māyā. Yatāh bhāsa tattāh tamah . Just like we sometimes see the sun is in opposite side. Just like—what is now? The sun is this side? Eh? Haṁsadūta: The sun is now on this side, yes. Prabhupāda: The sun's reflection is on some mirror there, and the reflection is coming here. So I take the sunshine is coming from there. This is the idea of illusion. The sun is there—in my back side. The sunshine should have come from that side, but the sunshine is reflected in some mirror this side, and the mirror reflection is here: I am thinking the sunshine is coming from this side. This is the illusion. The fact is the sunshine is come from there, but I am thinking coming from this side. This is illusion. Or the reflection is . . . actually it is dark night, but reflection is coming, I am thinking it is light. There are so many. Sometimes we have seen that in motorcar at night, we see that in the sky there is a city, all lights. You have not that experience? Haṁsadūta: Another good example is when you said that when sometimes the clouds move over the moon, it looks like the moon is moving. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Actually it doesn't. Prabhupāda: It is not moving. Yes, there are so many. So the moon is perfect, the cloud is perfect, the movement is perfect, everything is perfect—but still I am in illusion: you see that the moon is moving. So therefore it requires little knowledge; then you become perfect. Therefore you have to go to a person who has got this knowledge. Then you will become perfect. Professor Lewcock: May I ask another question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lewcock: Do you believe that it is possible to come to spiritual advancement rather than through the senses? In other words, that . . . Prabhupāda: No, I said purified senses. Professor Lewcock: You can. Through the past senses. Prabhupāda: Purified. Professor Lewcock: Purified? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our process is to purify the senses: for right understanding. Professor Lewcock: Yes. I am thinking particularly, though, of a great painting or a great piece of music. Would you feel that there is a spiritual message in something which moves one very profoundly? Prabhupāda: Everything is spiritual, but by illusion we are dividing, "This is material; this is spiritual." Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everything can be spiritualized by advancement of knowledge. Music can be spiritualized. Painting can be spiritualized. Everything can be spiritualized. And ultimate issue, there is nothing material; everything is spiritual. But by illusion, because I am forgetting the spiritual relationship, therefore I am making this distinction "material" and "spiritual." So as soon as they become completely realized on a higher platform, there is nothing as material. How there can be material? Because everything is emanation from the Supreme Spirit. Just like sunshine from the sun is heat and light. How it can be otherwise? But sometimes, by other conditions we feel it is cold. Just like the season changing, the atmosphere is changing. The sun is the same. The sunshine is the same, but by other condition, which is also created by the sun, sometimes we are feeling cold, sometimes we are feeling very hot. Or electricity—the same electricity working in the refrigerator and the heater, but the original nature of electricity is warm. How it is creating refrigerator cold? Under certain condition. So this condition is illusion. This condition does not remain—it comes and goes. So when we come to the perfect knowledge, then we can see that these conditions are illusion; really everything is spiritual. That is real knowledge. Professor Lewcock: So following that argument, all material things are . . . Prabhupāda: Illusion. Illusion. Professor Lewcock: Therefore they are all spiritual, ultimately. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ultimately there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual. Just like some foodstuff we are offering to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual, so how He is accepting material things? The same foodstuff eaten by somebody else, we say it is material, and the same foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa, we are offering prasādam . How it becomes prasādam ? *The laddu —what is the difference? The same thing, but there is difference. So when everything is in touch— nirbandha*-kṛṣṇa-sambhandhe —everything in touch with Kṛṣṇa, it becomes spiritualized. Generally we give this example—a iron rod put into the fire, it becomes warmer, warmer, then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. You touch anywhere, it will burn. So by spiritual association everything becomes spiritualized. Yes. That is wanted. Professor Lewcock: I have another question. What is your view of other religions? Just to take a simple example: Christianity. Prabhupāda: No, our point of view is that there is no second religion. There is only one religion. That religion is God, and to love God. So if you get this perfection through any religion, that's all right. Just like you are educated. You have passed M.A. Your aim is to pass M.A. examination—you can pass through any college, any university, but your aim is how to pass M.A. examination; it doesn't matter. So if your purpose is served, then it doesn't matter whether you pass your examination from this college or this university or that university. That doesn't matter. But if your purpose is not served, then you are simply working uselessly. So any religion, it doesn't matter—Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism—if you have got actual conception of God, and if you have learned how to love Him, then it is perfect. Otherwise it is useless ritual simply. That is the test. Professor Lewcock: Yes. So this means that you have some doubts about . . . (indistinct) . . . Buddhism? You feel that they . . . Prabhupāda: No. I don't particularly say any ism. But our aim is how to understand God and how to love Him. That's all. But if in your religious system there is no sense of God, and what to speak of to love Him, we take it useless. It may be very great propaganda, but ultimately if one does not understand what is God and how to love Him, then it is useless. What is the use of following such religion if I do not come to the ultimate understanding? We take it as useless. Our test is there. You may represent yourself as Buddhist or Hindus or Mohammedan—I want to test whether you have learned to love God, whether you have now some knowledge of God. Because if you love to God, you must have some knowledge. You cannot love something fictitious. That is not love. When I ask you to love, "love" means some person. You are not to love some air in the sky. You cannot love. That is not possible. So whether you have got any question when there is love of God, whether you have got any knowledge of the person of God, and what is His nature, what is the difference between God and me—this is the science of God—then there is question of love. So we are propagating, "Just try to understand what is God and love Him." That's all. It doesn't matter through which source you are getting that knowledge, but if that source is helping you to this end, that is perfect. Otherwise it is useless. Because unless you come to this point, you will never be satisfied. So when you come to this point, how to love God, then you will be your perfection of life. You will be fully satisfied. That here I've got the thing. Everyone is hankering after satisfaction of his heart that, "I have got now everything." So that can be achieved only by loving God. Otherwise it is not possible. So we are presenting, "Here is God—Kṛṣṇa." Now it is up to you to accept Him or not. That is your business. But we are presenting: here is God; here is His name; here is His activity; here is His devotee. He is accepted by so many stalwarts, so many scholar, so many devotee, so many śāstras . That we are presenting: "Here is God. You are searching after God? Here is God. See Him." But if you do not accept, it is your business. If you say: "Why shall I accept Him God?" that also can be explained. Yes, you must accept Him, because this is the qualification of God, and there all the qualifications are there. Suppose if I ask you, "What do you mean . . ." or "Can you define what is God?" Can you? Professor Lewcock: Well, God embraces everything. God embraces all . . . Prabhupāda: That is not proper definition. God embraces everything—that is one of the qualities, because . . . He embraces everything, then why they become impersonalist? You say He embraces? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is person. So where from these impersonal ideas come? Who is that He? This is real knowledge. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: As you said that He embraces, the next question, "Who is that He?" Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to say who is that He. If you cannot, then your knowledge is imperfect. But we say: "Here is God. Here is Kṛṣṇa, God." And those who are accepting, they are getting the benefit. So we are not presenting something fictitious. Presenting real, on the authority. Just like if I say—you are searching after spectacle—"Here is spectacle." So you test it by putting on your ear, "Yes," then it is spectacle. Similarly, we are putting "Here is God." So you try to love, and this is the process of loving Him. So if you accept everything, you will see, "Yes, I have got God." It is practical; it is not imaginary. These boys, they did not know what is God. I have simply said: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You love Him," and they are loving, and they are realizing. Yes, realizing. Now convince him that He is not God. He will never become convinced, because he has got the reality. You cannot try to deviate him: "No, no, it is not God." Do it. Any scholar, any ācārya , let him come, any yogī —he will be defeated. He has firm conviction, and he can argue, he can convince you, "Yes, here is God." (to devotee) Is it not? If somebody challenges it that "Kṛṣṇa is not God," then what you will say? If somebody says that you have accepted a false God, then what you will say? You will give up Kṛṣṇa, or what you will do? *Revatīnandana: We get out the Bhagavad*-gītā we fight. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: No. He may say: "I do not accept Bhagavad*-gītā ." Then what you will do? Revatīnandana: Challenge his authority. "If you don't accept our authority, what is your authority?" Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to ask that, "You present what is God. You present what is God." If he says: "I do not know," then, "You accept my God. You do not know. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God. You said this is not spectacle. So that means you must know what is spectacle. And if you cannot present, then what is the value of your saying it is not? You present counter God, and you prove that he is God. In the absence of your perfect knowledge in God, then you accept my God, what I am presenting. Because you have no knowledge; you are admitting. So you take the knowledge from me, authorized knowledge. It is not my whimsical knowledge." So that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are presenting: "Here is God—love Him. Your life will be perfect." And anyone who is doing that, he is coming to the perfectional point. Just like if I give a plate of, prasādam , you take it. You are hungry: "Take: here is food." You take it, you will understand, "Yes, my hunger is satisfied. I am getting strength." You don't require certificate from others. Similarly, if I present, "Here is God; You love Him," and immediately the certificate will be. He will perceive, "Yes, here is God." Exactly in the same way: if you are eating, if it is actual food, and if you are hungry, then use the food; you will feel strength, satisfaction of hunger, and you will say: "No, no. I don't want any more food. This is all right." Similarly, when you begin to love Kṛṣṇa, then you will understand, "Yes, here is God." Nobody will be required to give proof that He is God. You will understand that He is God. So we are doing that service. You are searching after God: "Take; here is God. Now love Him." What do you think? Is it not our process? Revatīnandana: Yes. It is. *Prabhupāda: This is process. "Here is God. Take Him." Vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma*-bhaktau (Bs. 5.33). You cannot search out God by reading so many books and literature, but a devotee can deliver it: "Take God. Here is God." That is devotee's prerogative. "Here is God. Take delivery, direct." Otherwise you go on searching many, many lives. Therefore it is said: (knock on door) Prabhupāda: (answering) Yes? Haṁsadūta: Come in. Prabhupāda: Yes? Oh. So this is the process. You have to approach somebody who knows God, and he can deliver you God: "Take. Here is God." That is the method. Otherwise, God cannot be searched out. God is not so cheap thing. Therefore there are so many scholars, philosophers, they are talking of all nonsense about God. Actually they do not believe in God. Haṁsadūta: Just talk. Prabhupāda: Just talk. Simply waste of time. Vikatthante . The exact word used in *Bhāgavatam* , vikatthante : talking all nonsense. Vikatthante . So God is there. You can realize God, provided you come to the right channel, right process. That's all. Now this lady, she always says that, "Now I have got the thing." So she is elderly lady, educated and everything. She was searching after God. Now she is thinking, "Yes, I have got God," and she is very enthusiastic to serve God. (pause) You are following which religion, Mrs. Sanjivin? Mrs. Sanzoni: I am Christian. Prabhupāda: Christian. That's nice. So Christian religion has got conception of God. Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is the actual feature of God. Is it not? Do you know? What is your conception of God? In Christian religion, they accept there is God, because Christ is son of God. So what is your conception of God? Mrs. Sanzoni: Creator. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Revatīnandana: Creator, she said. Prabhupāda: Creator. So He must be a person. Is it not? Creator. I have created this table, then I am a person; I have got brain; I have got hands how to work. So as soon as you say creator, then He must be a person. Is it not? Hmm? No clear idea. As soon as you say "creator," is He not a person? So have you seen that person? Or have you seen His pictures or the description of the body? Just like we sometimes see the picture, here is the man who has created this table. Similarly, if the creator is a person, we must have a vision of that person. Otherwise it is imperfect knowledge. I have heard that there is a queen, but if I have seen the picture also, then it is more perfect "The queen is like this." Therefore in every stamp, every paper, the queen's picture is there, so that people may not forget that, "Queen is a person, and here is the photograph." Otherwise why so much advertisement? Let her remain as person in her Buckingham Palace. Why she is advertised in so many ways? And she comes also out of the Buckingham Palace and sees you and talks with you. Similarly, if God is a person, we have to learn how to seen Him, how to talk with Him, how to appreciate Him, how to love Him, the next question is. Simply to have a conception that God is creator, that is not perfect knowledge. Do you admit it or not? Mrs. Sanzoni: (indistinct) . . . who is God? Prabhupāda: Who is God? Yes, that is my question. So if you have knowledge of God, you must say who is God. As you say "creator," I say: "Who is that creator?" So you have to describe, otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Is it not? Mrs. Sanzoni: I'm so sorry, I thought I asked the question. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: She wants to ask you the question—who is God? Prabhupāda: Yes, that we have already explained: Kṛṣṇa. Here is God: Kṛṣṇa. His picture is here. That picture is there. There are so many pictures showing He is God— *Kṛṣṇa Book* and this. So many. Here is God. You see? Mrs. Sanzoni: I think it's a book. Prabhupāda: It is book? It is not knowledge? Mrs. Sanzoni: It's knowledge—but in a book. Prabhupāda: So how you can know God? In the air, do you think? Everything we have to know. Why this professor is there? He teaches his student from the air? Do you think like that? How he teaches? Professor, how do you teach? Professor Lewcock: Yes, we teach from the books and ideas Prabhupāda: Through books. So why do you say this is book? This is knowledge. "This is book" means imperfect knowledge. This is knowledge. You have to learn from the professor, from the right man; *then you get the knowledge. śāstra*-cakṣusā . This is the definition in the Vedas , that your eyes should be śāstra , or the books. That is your eyes. These eyes have no value. It is useless. As soon as the light is gone, your eyes' value of eyes gone, immediately. What is the value of your eyes? You have to hear from the right person. That is knowledge. If you want to see God, if you want to touch God, that is not possible in this condition. You have to hear about God. And that hearing is there. Therefore it is called śruti. Śruti means the hearing process, śravaṇam , hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), to hear about the Lord. So these are the imperfect knowledge, that when we give you book of knowledge you say it is book. So book is the source of knowledge. Therefore it is said that you have to surrender to a person. I give you knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. You say: "Oh, it is book." That means you have no surrender; you think that I am giving something else. Therefore the first process is if you want to know something, you must approach to a suitable person where you can surrender: "Yes. Whatever he says, I will accept." Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself on the standard that you know everything, you can examine everything, then you cannot make progress. Mrs. Sanzoni: If one cannot read this book? Prabhupāda: One can hear. Therefore I say hear. Just like you are hearing. If you cannot read, that doesn't matter, but you hear from the right person. Blind man cannot see, but that does not mean he cannot walk, because the ear is there. His father calls him, "My dear boy, come here." So he cannot see his father, but he goes there. So it does not mean that because he cannot see, but because he was not educated, the knowledge is stopped. No. The real knowledge comes from the aural reception. You hear. Book is meant for hearing. Unless you hear in this book, there is no use. (aside) You can give her that. (pause) What is that verse? Pradyumna: Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Prabhupāda: Oh, that is already explained. Professor Lewcock: Master, you explained that the material world is imperfect, or illusion, even though. But presumably devotees who have followed the path of spiritual enlightenment for long enough have reached a state which is very little imperfect—it's hardly imperfect at all. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: No. You cannot expect, when a student is admitted in your college, you cannot expect him that he has become perfect. Professor Lewcock: No. Prabhupāda: But because he is studying, because he is continuing the studies, then he will be perfect. Similarly, in our institution it is not that all our students are perfect, but because they are following the rules and regulation and struggling, they will be perfect. Just like the example is given that a girl is married. So every girl wants some child, but if she thinks, "Now I am married, I must have immediately child," that is not possible. But because she is married, because there is husband, there must be a child. That is there. And if she thinks, "Oh, I am married. Where is my child?" that is not possible. You have to wait. But because there is husband and you are wife, there must be child. This is going on. So similarly, when we admit a student and they follow regulative principles, you must get realization one day—today or tomorrow. Professor Lewcock: Do they get it only after a series of transmigrations? *Prabhupāda: No. In this life. Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out that: In this life. Pradyumna: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: That's it. You simply understand Kṛṣṇa and you are immediately promoted. You haven't got to wait for next birth. But if you do not complete your studies to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to wait. You must finish the business. So if you are serious, you can finish their business, understanding Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after giving up this body you enter back to home, back to Godhead. That depends on my endeavor. One student passes in one examination; another student does not pass even three examination. It is like that. If you become serious that, "In this life I shall have thorough understanding of Kṛṣṇa and finish it, and next life I shall go directly to Kṛṣṇa," that is possible. It is said there, tyaktvā dehaṁ —immediately after giving up this body, immediately soul is transferred to the spiritual world. Professor Lewcock: And many devotees are able to achieve this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everyone can achieve, provided they endeavor seriously. Not many—everyone. The same example: everyone can pass the examination on the first appearance. Is it not? Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if somebody is neglectful, then he does not pass. It is question of seriousness. Otherwise, everyone can pass in the first examination. Where is the difficulty? So therefore that opportunity is here in the human form of life, that in this human form of life we can stop the repetition of transmigration from one body to another. If he finishes this Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, immediately next life he goes to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if he does not finish, if he gets another body—it doesn't matter; one does not know what kind of body he is going to get—then this opportunity is missing. This opportunity, the advanced consciousness, is missing. Therefore we should utilize properly our advanced consciousness to understand God and then go back to Him. That is the mission of human life. And if we waste our life like cats and dogs, that is a risky business. The cats and dogs, they are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, or God. They are interested eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. That's all. So if we simply use our this valuable life simply like cats and dogs—eating, sleeping, sex life and defense—they are missing the opportunity. Our propaganda is that "Don't miss this opportunity. You take advantage of this life and try to understand Kṛṣṇa, God, and go back to Him, so you become relieved from this repetition of birth and death." But people do not understand that there is birth after . . . there is life after death. They do not understand. Therefore he has to become a student and learn from these books and prepare for the next life; then everything is all right. You are following what I say? Mrs. Sanzoni: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what you are going to do in this life? You shall miss the opportunity or take the opportunity? That is in our hands. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, we do," Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tathā kuru —the independence is given. God has given us independence: "If you want to remain in this illusory material world, you remain, and struggle for existence, but if you want to come to Me, where I am, come on." So there is no fault on the part of God. It is our fault. Professor Lewcock: Yes Prabhupāda: Yes. (to devotee) Where is Śivānanda now? Haṁsadūta: He is in Berlin. In Berlin. Prabhupāda: Berlin. And she? Where she lives? Haṁsadūta: Hamburg. Prabhupāda: With you? Haṁsadūta: No, she is staying with her parents. Prabhupāda: So you are chanting? *Vṛndā*-devī: No, I stopped . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Why you stopped? If you did not like Śivānanda, why you did not like chanting? *Vṛndā*-devī: Pardon? Revatīnandana: (repeating Śrīla Prabhupāda's question) He said if you did not like Śivānanda, why you did not like chanting at least? *Vṛndā*-devī: Oh. I couldn't believe anymore in Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: What do you believe? What is your belief now? You did not believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is all right, but what do you believe now? *Vṛndā*-devī: I don't know what to say. I believe that . . . Prabhupāda: You believe in eating and sleeping, that is all? *Vṛndā*-devī: I believe that there's something that's greater than I, that I don't understand, but . . . (indistinct) . . . function in the movement. So I left. Prabhupāda: Then do you believe in something now or not? Haṁsadūta: She said that she believes that there is something greater than she is, but she doesn't understand what that thing is. And she thought she couldn't have . . . find that understanding in . . . Prabhupāda: How she will understand that? Haṁsadūta: How will you understand it? *Vṛndā*-devī: I haven't thought of a very definite way of trying. I haven't met anyone else who could really . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not believe very seriously. You do it conveniently. That is your position. You believe something greater, but you are not serious about it, because you do not know what is that greater. *Vṛndā*-devī: Well, I think that . . . (indistinct) . . . couldn't understand what was the way to . . . Prabhupāda: But that you could not. That you could not. You have no idea what is greater than Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You simply rejected one. Just like a man is serving somewhere, and he resigns that post. And if somebody asks him, "What next post you have got?" "No, I have none," then what is the gain? Huh? If you leave some post, "Oh, it is not very nice," then you must get another post which is very nice. But if somebody asks you that, "You have left this post. What you have got next?" "No, that I do not know," then what is your gain? You have left something, but in exchange you must get something very nice. But if you haven't got that, then what is the use of leaving this? That is the way when you go forward—you step like this. So when you step, and you are confident that, "Now my foot is in ground," then you take it. Then again. This is the way. So if you are uncertain, then how you can you make progress? That means you are standstilled. And that is not good. If you think that there is something better, then you must take it. *Vṛndā*-devī: I'm looking for it but . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very difficult for me to understand myself, because with my own power. I have to wait until it comes from somewhere else. Prabhupāda: It will drop. You will not try, it will come and drop—that is not possible. Find out what you think is something better—otherwise, what is the use of leaving something? You don't think Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is very good? You don't think? *Vṛndā*-devī: I wouldn't say that it is not good, but . . . Prabhupāda: You said something better you want. That means that you say it is not good, that you think like that. Otherwise how do you say "Something better"? *Vṛndā*-devī: Not something better, something that I can . . . that is not too much demand, I thought it was, that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: Too difficult. Revatīnandana: It was too much demand and too much sacrifice required. Prabhupāda: In Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You want something cheap. Yes? That is your idea? *Vṛndā*-devī: I wouldn't call it cheap. Prabhupāda: God is not so cheap. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa tyāgena (SB 6.1.13). These are the process one has to go, undergo. Just like Lord Jesus Christ, he understood God. How much tapasya he had gone through? At the end he had to sacrifice his life, crucified. So if you want to know God, it is not so very easy thing. If you think this is difficult, something cheap you want, God is not so cheap. You have to take some difficult task to understand God. *Vṛndā*-devī: I agree with that. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not possible. You can see from the example, those who realized—Lord Jesus Christ, how much difficulties he had to undergo—austerity, from the very beginning of his life. He went to India and so many places, then he had to face so many dangers. So it is not cheap thing. *Vṛndā*-devī: Yes, but as some more doubt came in, because . . . Prabhupāda: No. First of all you must be prepared to undergo all the difficulties. If you think it is very difficult, difficult it is . . . anything you want. Suppose you want to pass M.A. examination. Does it mean that you'll, simply sitting, you will pass the examination? You have to take some difficult task. Everything. Without labor, without difficulties, you cannot achieve anything higher. That is not possible. Easygoing is not good. Easygoing is for the animals—eat, sleep, drink and die. That is easy going life— cats and dogs. They, whatever their capacity is there for eating, sleeping and little sex life and little defending, that is all. They do not know anything more. So for human life we should not be so easy going. Human life is meant for tapasya . That is stated in the *Bhāgavatam* : *This life, it is not . . . this human form of life is not meant for easy going life, hogs and dogs. Yes. Why hogs? This name is mentioned: viḍ*-bhujāṁ . The hogs, their life is eating stool, and they have got the power to get physical strength by eating stool. Stool is medically full of hypophosphites. So they get good much quantity of hypophosphite, therefore hog very quickly becomes strong, aggressive. They are eating actually chemically nice food. (laughter) And as soon as the body is little fatty and strong, then sex impulse is agitated. And they have got free sex impulse. The hog does not care whether mother or daughter or nothing. You see? So this facility, eating stool and having sex life with anyone, they are thinking they are very nice. They are thinking, "I am very nicely situated." This is not meant for the human life—eating very nice, getting hypophosphite and having sex agitation very nice, to enjoy. That's all. Finish. That is not human life. That is hog's life. *Vṛndā*-devī: (indistinct) . . . undergoing austerities. One is not accustomed . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. So find out that point. But this easy going life is hog's life. Is it not? Hog is also thinking that, "I am very satisfied." Therefore śāstra says that the human life is not to be spoiled like hog's life. This therefore this very name given— viḍ*-bhujāṁ. This life is meant for tapasya . (break) (aside) So you want to give them prasāda ? Revatīnandana: Actually, they will be right now preparing us some plates, so . . . Prabhupāda: So how do you think of our philosophy? Professor Lewcock: I think it is very impressive. It's a great honor to hear you explaining it so clearly. Prabhupāda: It is authorized, scientific. Professor Lewcock: You're very direct, simple. And I like the living the other things that you've said. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Professor Lewcock: I think it is very true. The person who does not spend time endeavoring to experience, or is not doing anything worthwhile in their lives . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, God has created us . . . so He has created our food also. Just like a man is criminal, and the government has put him into the jail; that does not mean he will starve. He will get food there. Similarly, although we are in this material world, the food arrangement is there. We can take it from the lower creatures, just as the hog, he is also eating. He has no . . . nothing to bother where he shall get, the food is there. Any bird, beast, beginning from ant to the elephant, there is food for everyone. So I am human being; I am also one of them. If the elephant can get his food and the ant can get his food and the hog can get, why I shall not get my food? This is common sense. So why shall I embarrass myself for my food so much? This is human consciousness. Let me utilize my energy for understanding God. This is real human life. Food is there. If the God has provided food for the hogs and dogs and ants and elephants, why not for me? Practically we take meal in every center, fifty to two hundred men. So we have no problem how we shall eat, neither we are doing any business or profession. No. We go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and try to sell our literature. That is also for propagation. So God is supplying our food. That much faith we must have. So God has provided food for everyone, why not for me? I have dedicated my life for God, and I shall starve? Is there any reason? If God has provided food for everyone—even nondevotees, birds, beasts, ants, everyone—and I have dedicated my whole life for God, and I shall starve? No. They must get somewhere. Therefore my business is to save time for searching out food; better employ that time for understanding God. This is called tapasya—tapo divyaṁ . This is called tapasya. Divyaṁ. Divyaṁ means "for the Supreme." This is the only business of human being, that he should be satisfied with bodily comfort as much God gives. That much. He should not endeavor for betterment. Our students all say—we can lie down on the floor. Actually we have no furniture; we lie down on the floor. But if God gives us a nice place, we don't deny it also. Just like this building is given by George Harrison. So we were in a small building—that building is also still there, 7 Bury Place—and now He has given a big place. God has given. God has inspired him, so we don't deny it. "All right." But if He says that, "You go away," we can go away, because we know if we go away from this place we will get another place. God has provided. That much belief we have got. So there is no difficulty for these things—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So we are trying to save time simply to understand God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We have no other business. So we are writing books, we are preaching, everything, whatever there—selling books—only for propagating God consciousness. So many people send us money: "Sir, you are doing very nice work. You are spreading God consciousness. Here is my little contribution." God sends. So we have no economic difficulty. Our expenditure is very, very heavy. Yes. So people can practically see. They will complain so many difficulties. As soon as we shall say: "Why don't you come and live with us here in this nice building?" that he'll not do. He'll go away. So what we can do? We are prepared to receive anyone, everyone: "Come on, live with us." No. He or she wants something better. What better place one can get? Such a nice atmosphere, nice all big building, nice prasādam . Still, what better? Professor Lewcock: But the people who have to work in order to keep other people happy with food and the necessities of their life, you believe that they can simply work in their spare time towards Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You don't believe that everybody should give up their work in order to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole time? Prabhupāda: No, no. We don't say that. You work, but you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our philosophy. You remain in your position; it doesn't matter. But you become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like I explained to you, that it may be any religion you profess; it does not matter. We want that whether you have learned what is God and how to love Him. That is all. Similarly, you remain in your position but become God conscious; then your life will be successful. This is our propaganda. Professor Lewcock: Yes. Prabhupāda: We don't say that you give up your job, your position, you become a sannyāsī or you become this or that. No. We don't say that. We simply say that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Try to understand God and love Him. (break) Professor Lewcock: . . . build a temple. You have a temple being built downstairs, and there is one in the grounds. And how much time will your devotees spend in prayer in the temple? *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four hours. *Professor Lewcock: I see. You would like the temple to be in use twenty*-four hours? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are engaged twenty*-four hours, from morning four o'clock to ten o'clock at night. Then we go to rest for five to six hours. Then again our begins. After all, we have got this body; there must be some rest. But if we can work without taking rest, that also we accept. Professor Lewcock: And physical discipline you regard as just one path to . . . for spiritual enlightenment? Prabhupāda: That is our only aim, how to become . . . Professor Lewcock: Yes, but there are many paths. There are many paths. There's the path of spiritual understanding, there is the path of bhakti , and then there's the path of discipline. *Prabhupāda: Just like I have told you that the ultimate issue there is nothing but spiritual. So why not try for the spiritual? That will include everything. Ultimately you have to realize spiritual. And everything is spiritual. So there may be different names, but there is a process to understand. We have to follow that process. That is explained in Bhagavad*-gītā , that two energies—material energy and spiritual energy—both of them coming from God. Just heat and light coming from the sun, similarly both the energies coming from Kṛṣṇa. But . . . (knock on door) Yes? . . . one is superior and the other is inferior. (devotees enter with prasādam ) So take little prasāda . (break) Professor Lewcock: No living thing is killed. You do not eat eggs? Do you regard eggs as life? Prabhupāda: No, we don't take fish, eggs, meat. Professor Lewcock: Ah, you don't eat eggs at all? Prabhupāda: Yes. We actually eat what Kṛṣṇa eats. If Kṛṣṇa eats eggs, then we can eat it. But He does not eat. (laughter) Our policy is we do not eat anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. If Kṛṣṇa said: "Give Me meat," then we shall eat meat. But He does not say. He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ (BG 9.26). We have no responsibility. Professor Lewcock: I see, yes. Prabhupāda: Even those who are vegetarian, they are also . . . they have also responsibility for being punished, for being punished, because vegetable has got life. Professor Lewcock: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be punished. Professor Lewcock: I see. Prabhupāda: You cannot kill anyone, either vegetable or man or . . . Professor Lewcock: I see. So here you have rice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rice is not killing the tree. Professor Lewcock: Not killing it. Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: We do not kill. And even we kill, we can kill for Kṛṣṇa. So we have no responsibility. If you ask me to kill somebody, then you are responsible. Just like you kill one snake with a stick, the stick is not responsible. Professor Lewcock: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: You are responsible. (chuckles) Similarly, we are simply stick, instrument in the hands of Kṛṣṇa. Whatever He does, we try to assist Him. That is all. So we have no responsibility. We are free. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājāṁ (Bs. 5.54). Those who are devotee, they are not bound up by any karma . So our position is very safe. Suppose a father maintains his children. The father may do something criminal for getting the money, but the children are not responsible. It is a crude example. The father will be responsible. The father also will not say that, "For you I have not become responsible." Father will never say. So Kṛṣṇa can do anything and everything, as He likes. He is supreme power. So we take protection of Kṛṣṇa, so we have no responsibility. Our only responsibility is that we fully depend on Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Professor Lewcock: Master, how many devotees . . . Prabhupāda: Neither we try to find out something better than Kṛṣṇa. That we don't try. We are finally taken. There cannot be anything better than Kṛṣṇa. Take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and be satisfied. That's all. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Very simple thing. And Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. Kṛṣṇa is the master of all mystic power. So our endeavor is not in vain. Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo (BG 18.78). Yātrā, śrī, vijaya —everything. Our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is way sublime. One has to learn it only—if he is fortunate. Otherwise he will not be able to learn it. If he is duṣkṛtino , sinful, he will not be able to understand. Professor Lewcock: Master, how many thousands of devotees of Kṛṣṇa consciousness are there? Prabhupāda: That is very difficult to say. So suppose I am talking to you for the last more than one hour; you have not become my devotee. So we have to spend gallons of blood to make a devotee; therefore we cannot expect many number. Professor Lewcock: No. *Prabhupāda: You have to talk like this for years, then one becomes a devotee. So we cannot expect a very large number. That is not possible. But if we can make one man devotee, then we think our preaching attempt is successful. Yes. It doesn't matter—one. We don't want many. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tāra*-sahasrasaḥ —one moon is sufficient; there is no need of millions of stars. What is the use if one does not understand? If one understands, that is sufficient. He'll make many others. That is our policy. But we cannot expect a large number. That is not possible. Still, we have got many thousands. But they are very rigid. Solid. Yes. Professor Lewcock: Yes. But the movement is growing. Is the movement growing rather fast now? Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everything there is, but still people do not come. (laughter) Everything fine. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful. Kṛṣṇa's service is so nice. Kṛṣṇa's prasādam is so nice. Kṛṣṇa's devotees are so nice. Everything nice—cent percent. But still people deny it. The same thing, that the hog, he is satisfied by eating stool, but if he is given nice halavā , he'll refuse. Hog taste. (laughter) Revatīnandana: Last night we went home in the car, Mr. Schumacher and Mr. Papworth. So I went with them to talk. I thought I could engage them perhaps in some way. So Mr. Schumacher was complaining that even to live in a house and a little garden will require so much money. It is such a problem just for his children to have a garden. He was complaining. So I said: "Well, we've got this nice place, nice garden. We are not having any trouble. You just come and bring your family. Immediately you can come." And from that point he argued all the way home. He found this fault, that fault, next fault. He would not take. Then the argument began. Haṁsadūta: I was told that if you ask a rickshaw man in Calcutta that, "Just come with us. We will give you some clothing, we will give you some food, nice place to live you; just have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," he will say no. Prabhupāda: Not interested. (laughter) Haṁsadūta: He'd rather pull the rickshaw. Prabhupāda: Actually it so happened one . . . long ago. One man, one servant, he lost his job, so he approached one gentleman—he was a devotee—"Sir, I have lost . . . if can you give me." So he said that "At present I don't require any servant. Anyway, you are in trouble, so you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," and he was a devotee, "and I will give you the payment, whatever . . . you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So after three, four days he could not find out the man. Then he thought that he might have got some service. But "How is that? He did not say anything like that." So after three, four years he met him again. So when he narrated this story, that "You came here. I wanted to give you the payment, so why did you go away?" "Sir, it was very difficult. To chant Hare Kṛṣṇa all day night was just impossible." (laughter) Although the payment was there, he said it was impossible. "Therefore I went away." "Therefore I went away." Yes. He will whole day work, pull on the rickshaw, and still he will not accept to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. The same example: if you tell the hog that "Why you are rotting in this way? Come on, I shall give you daily halavā ," "No, sir. I cannot go. I have got so much responsibility." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ei rupe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151): only the fortunate man can get to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Bhāgyavān means "fortunate." *So without being fortunate one cannot accept, even you give all facilities. That is the difficulty. So we give chance people to become bhāgyavān , fortunate, by preaching, going door to door, vibrating Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , so that the unfortunate can become also fortunate one day. This is preaching. Otherwise, if people accept it immediately, there is no difficulty. But he is so unfortunate they will not accept. Therefore we have to create his fortune by forcing him to hear Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . This is preaching. Mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). So we have to create him a little devotee; then he'll come follow us. So you take that little, you are read . . . (referring to previous discussion) And what he settled then? He is not coming? Revatīnandana: No. We argued all the way. After that he found more faults. *Prabhupāda: Must be engaged in shoe*-making. (laughter) That is very good. And without working he'll get nice food—that is not required. Better shoe-maker. Revatīnandana: Mr. Papworth is more . . . Mr. Papworth, he is coming. He is attracted. *Prabhupāda: And the shoe*-maker (Schumacher) will also be attracted. Revatīnandana: Not after we got home. We had a big argument. There were so many things. It will be some time . . . Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent man; he can argue with them. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says fortunate—only the fortunate man can accept. Mrs. Sanzoni: Do you have many devotees in India? Prabhupāda: All Indians. Mrs. Sanzoni: All . . . all across India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You don't know that? Mrs. Sanzoni: Yes, I guessed so, but you know . . . Prabhupāda: Even though they are not Hindus, they are also Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mrs. Sanzoni: Anyone who is conscious of God? Prabhupāda: No—Kṛṣṇa practically. There are many Muhammadans, they observe Kṛṣṇa's birthday ceremony. Many Christians, many Muhammadans all over the world, they accept Kṛṣṇa. (break) What is his argument, that he does not like to come here? *Revatīnandana: Well, it was a gradual development. First the reporter, he asked me what do I think of this Guru Maharaj*-ji. And I said: "Well, we think he is a demon." So they didn't like that. So then I proved it. They argued, "Oh . . ." So the reporter argued. So I gave him five, six reasons why he is a demon, and he couldn't say anything. So then Schumacher said, "Well that is all right, but what about some really great saint, like Ramakrishna?" Prabhupāda: Another demon. (laughter) Revatīnandana: So I had to, er, say that, "Well, we cannot accept him as incarnation of God, and we cannot accept his philosophy, that any path will take you to God, that you can eat anything, you can do anything, if you believe this or that; whatever you believe you will come to God." I said: "We cannot accept that." Oh, he didn't like that, you know. Prabhupāda: Because he is of that nature. Revatīnandana: Yes, that all religions are the same—this is his philosophy. So . . . and he made the assertion that at least you must accept that the four main religions—he said Christianity, Hinduism, Muhammadanism and Buddhism . . . Prabhupāda: No, we accept any religion. But we want to see that whether has become a lover of God. That's all. Revatīnandana: Well, he said: "So they are all the same teaching," he said. So I had to say: "Well actually Buddhist teaching is not the same." Then it turns out that he is big expert on Buddhism. So he said: "Oh, it is identical." So I said: "Well, for instance, Christ calls God the father; means God is a person. But Buddha spoke of . . . would not speak of God; he spoke only of a negation of the material, something void." Prabhupāda: Zero. Revatīnandana: Zero, void. He said: "Well, that's only symbols. The words are only so many symbols, but the teaching is the same." I said: "But actually the symbols are different; the teaching is different." He said, "Oh, you are very intolerant." He got very . . . he began to get upset. So it went on for some time. It was a long drive. (laughs) (break) Prabhupāda: . . . speaking that ultimately you go back to home, back to Godhead, and you live there peacefully, eternal life, and somebody says ultimately you will become zero. So there is no comparison? Everything is all right? Both of them are the same? How can you say? I am giving you something tangible idea, and you are saying that the ultimate is zero. So both of them are the same? How one reasonable man can think of it? If I am promising somebody that, "You come to me; I shall give you good salary," and somebody promises, "Yes, come to me. I shall give you zero," the same thing? Any sane man will say now both the same? Zero and good situation is the same? How is that? Revatīnandana: Actually, when he was saying that I made a very bad social mistake. I said: "If we say that all these teachings are the same, but clearly there are so many different things," I said: "it will only indicate soft intelligence." I didn't mean directly him, but actually I didn't think . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: I did mean . . . oh, he got very upset. "Oh, I have got soft intelligence!" Oh, he was very angry then. So then I had to apologize so many things. (laughing) But actually it is. If there is unity, it is on the principle that we are the eternal servants of God. So that . . . wherever that principle is found, that is the beginning of unity. But he would agree, but then he could not see that if God is a person then you can serve Him; if God is not a person, you cannot serve Him. Prabhupāda: Soft intelligence. Revatīnandana: It's very difficult. But I think that Mr. Papworth is a . . . he was listening, and finally when he left he smiled at me and shook my hand and he went into his house. He's coming back. Prabhupāda: If they say God is creator, He must be a person. Where you get the conception the creator is zero? How do you say that? Professor Lewcock: Well, the Buddhists believe that there is no God . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Śūnyavādi. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi . That is our daily prayer, nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi*-pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe —to deliver the Western world from this impersonalism and voidism. Impersonalism, also voidism. It is describing in a different way. (end) Interview -- August 6, 1973, London (Interview with Reporters) Reporter: You're just over here for a visit, are you? Or are you staying here? Do you intend to stay here? Prabhupāda: If you allow me. Reporter: Well, is there any problem about that, then? Prabhupāda: Yes, because your immigration department is very strict nowadays. Reporter: So they only allow you a visitor's permit, then. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am a visitor. Although I am proprietor of so many temples . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . still I am a visitor in my temple. Reporter: So you're just a visitor, but you want to stay here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: You want to stay here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Permanently? Prabhupāda: Can you help me? Reporter: Oh, I don't know. I'm just a newspaperman. Prabhupāda: Then why are you asking me? Reporter: Well, because I'm interested. I wanted to know whether you would be here . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . just for a visit . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . or whether you were here . . . Prabhupāda: England . . . Reporter: . . . permanently. Prabhupāda: England, especially London, is the most important city in the world, so there are many nice people here. I very much like to talk with them. So if I am allowed to stay here, I can stay and make friendship with nice people here. That's all. Reporter: Yes. When did you arrive? When did you arrive in England? Prabhupāda: (to Haṁsadūta) . . . (indistinct) . . . you can reply. *Haṁsadūta: Umm, about couple of weeks ago. Just before Ratha*-yātrā. Seventh of July? Prabhupāda: Seventh? Haṁsadūta: Seventh of July. Reporter: July seventh. From India. From India. Haṁsadūta: From Calcutta. Reporter: And you've had this, uh, this house since May. Is that right? Haṁsadūta: Since May. Yes Reporter: And George Harrison of the Beatles bought this house for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: How did you get to know George Harrison? Prabhupāda: Well, I am a mendicant. I travel all over the world. Reporter: You're a what? Haṁsadūta: Mendicant. Prabhupāda: Mendicant. Reporter: Yeah. Yeah. Prabhupāda: So people come to me. That is my profession. Reporter: Well, where did you meet Harrison, then? Prabhupāda: In here. I first met him here. Reporter: In London? Prabhupāda: Here in London, 1968. Reporter: 'Cause he had another juru didn't he? He had, um, what was his name? The Maharishi. The, the old gentleman with the beard. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a good boy. He is searching after some spiritual enlightenment. That's very good idea. Reporter: Yeah, but he used to . . . Prabhupāda: And he found Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as genuine. Reporter: (to devotees) So, uh, I'm sorry. When did he say he met George Harrison? In 196 . . .? Devotees: '68. In London. Reporter: 1968. But . . . but George Harrison went to India, and he was, uh, he met there the main Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Prabhupāda: I do not know that. But I have heard it. Reporter: You've heard it, yeah. He's the gentleman with the big beard. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. How is it that he got . . . I mean, if he had one Maharishi juru , guru , whatever you call yourselves, if he had one, why does he need two? Prabhupāda: Well, guru we can make many, for learning many things. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: But he can stick to one. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Just like in the Western countries, the girls, they meet many boys. At last she selects one. (chuckling) Reporter: Mm. Did he give this house to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Do you pay anything for it at all? Prabhupāda: Uh? Reporter: Do you pay him anything for it at all? Prabhupāda: Well, where is money I shall pay? Reporter: Sorry? Prabhupāda: Where is money I shall pay? Reporter: When you get it, you'll pay for it, will you? Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhajahari: Where is the money? He says he hasn't any. Prabhupāda: You asked me . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . whether I paid anything. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: But where is my money? Reporter: Haven't you got any? Śrutikīrti: Doesn't have any money. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: I am a mendicant. *Reporter: So you live here. This is a . . . is it right, fifty*-five rooms in this place? Fifty-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And what are you going to do with them all? Prabhupāda: Oh, you are welcome. Come and live with us. Reporter: How many people live here now? Prabhupāda: About fifty people. Not less than. Reporter: Fifty people living here. Haṁsadūta: At least. Reporter: That's ladies and, uh . . . Haṁsadūta: Ladies, yes. Prabhupāda: Ladies separately. Gentlemen separately. Reporter: And what do they do all day? Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Reporter: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, and eating prasādam , foodstuff offered to Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: And eating what? Prabhupāda and Devotee: Prasādam . *Haṁsadūta: Prasādam. P-r-a-s*-a . . . *Reporter: P-r-a-s*-a . . . *Haṁsadūta: . . . d*-a-m *Reporter: . . . d*-a-m Haṁsadūta: Prasādam . It is spiritual food, or food offered to Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Well what's spirit . . . what, what's, what is it, spiritual food? Haṁsadūta: It is all vegetarian foodstuffs prepared and then offered to Kṛṣṇa. It becomes spiritual. It is called prasādam . Prabhupāda: You can say that we don't eat meat. Haṁsadūta: Yes. We don't . . . we follow four principles very strictly. We, all our students, they do not eat any meat, fish or eggs. That means we don't kill animals—no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxicants—they take not even tea or cigarettes or coffee. Reporter: Not even tea, cigarettes or coffee. Haṁsadūta: No tea, coffee, cigarettes. Nothing. No intoxication. And they are . . . no illicit sex life. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: And they don't gamble. No gambling. These are our four restrictions. Reporter: Now you are, your . . . some of your young men are getting the hall ready for a temple. Is that right? I just saw them. Haṁsadūta: They are preparing the hall downstairs for a temple. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be used for temple. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Wherever we stay, that is a temple. Reporter: Yes. Yeah. Prabhupāda: We have got so many temples. This is the picture of our Los Angeles temple. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: In Los Angeles. Reporter: Yeah. *Haṁsadūta: On the . . . on the twenty*-first of this month, twenty-first and twenty-second, there will be a big ceremony, an installation, a Deity installation ceremony. I think it mentions in, in your . . . Reporter: Yeah, yeah. But apart from eating and chanting, what else do you do here? You sleep in the afternoons, do you? Prabhupāda: No. We have got so many books. There is class. We have got . . . show him the books. Reporter: But you sleep in the afternoon, do you? You've just . . . I'm told you've just woken up. Is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't sleep at night. I sleep some time in daytime. Reporter: What do you do at night, then? Prabhupāda: I write books. Haṁsadūta: He writes these books. Prabhupada has written more than fifteen big books like this. You can look at them. Prabhupāda: He can note down my books. They are selling . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: Like to have a look at them. Reporter: Yeah. And do your people go up to the West End chanting and collecting money? Do they? Do they go from here? Are they the people one sees in the West End? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Collecting money by selling books. Reporter: Yeah, but these are the people that one sees in Oxford Street. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: They come from here. Bhajahari: We also have a center there, in the West End. Reporter: Yeah. But what I, you know, you've got fifty people here. How many . . . what sort of . . . are they . . . Prabhupāda: They go with books outside, and they chant, and anyone likes, he can purchase our books. Our main source of income is by selling books. All over the world we are selling books, about $300 per day. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: In our center here. Prabhupāda: All center. Reporter: How much do you need to keep this place going? I mean, how do you live here? How much money do you need a week to keep this . . .? Prabhupāda: That I don't keep account. He knows. What . . . what must . . . how much we want. Bhajahari: At least a hundred pounds each week. Prabhupāda: Hundred pounds each week. Reporter: You can get a hundred pounds each week? Bhajahari: Yes. Reporter: Where from? Bhajahari: We have . . . just like our spiritual master was saying about selling books. Reporter: You get a hundred pounds a week selling books, do you? Bhajahari: Well, some people make donations also. Reporter: Yeah. Bhajahari: We have programs. Raise money. Prabhupāda: We have no fixed source of income. We have no fixed source of income, but we depend on Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: You're as rich as the Divine Light Church, or the little guru, the little . . .? *Bhajahari: Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Haṁsadūta: (to Prabhupāda) He wants to know if we are as rich as Guru Maharaj*-ji. *Prabhupāda: I do not know about . . . much about Guru Maharaj*-ji. (laughing) Bhajahari: We don't . . . Prabhupāda: Do you know anything about him? Reporter: Well, I know he has a very expensive motorcar, and uh . . . do you have a very expensive motorcar? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: No. Just see our expenditure is sit down on the floor, just lie down on this floor. (laughter) You are experiencing how we are luxuriously living. We cannot offer even a chair. This is our position. Reporter: But that's because you don't want chairs, though, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: That's because you don't want to have chairs, not because you can't afford chairs. Prabhupāda: No. If you offer me chair, I can sit down. Reporter: Yes, but you don't really . . . be happier sitting there, not in a chair. Haṁsadūta: Here's a chair. Prabhupāda: There is a chair. (laughter) *Reporter: Why, uh, why do you need a fifty*-five-room mansion to carry out your work? Prabhupāda: Because George has given. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise we can lie down on the street. We don't deny. If you offer me another house, I can accept also. Reporter: How often do you see George? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: How often do you see George? How often he comes here? Prabhupāda: Since I have come here, he has come here twice, thrice. Reporter: Twice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Just twice? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: He arrived . . . you arrived here July, didn't he? Devotee: Yeah. Reporter: July the seventh, did we say? *Haṁsadūta: Mm*-hm. Prabhupāda: He comes along with his friends. Reporter: What does he do? Prabhupāda: He sings. Reporter: He what? Prabhupāda: He is a musician; he sings, that's all. He glorifies Kṛṣṇa. His recent record, he has glorified Kṛṣṇa, by Kṛṣṇa's grace. Reporter: What do you think of him as a sitar player? Prabhupāda: We are not very much concerned with sitar players. Reporter: Yeah. No, no. Prabhupāda: We are concerned with the devotees. Reporter: I didn't mean that frivolously. I meant what do you think of him as a sitar player? I understand he does play the sitar . Haṁsadūta: His . . . he plays the sitar . He wants to . . . Prabhupāda: He has not played anything before me, but I know that he is a good musician, that's all. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: But he has not played anything before me. When he comes, he talks with me, that's all. Reporter: What about? Prabhupāda: About this Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yeah. You say you don't smoke cigarettes. Do you smoke anything else? Haṁsadūta: Nothing. No. Reporter: No, no. No pot or anything? *Haṁsadūta: We don't even drink Pepsi*-Cola. Bhajahari: No intoxication. Reporter: Why is that? Haṁsadūta: Because we don't take anything which is not necessary for maintaining the body and soul together. We simply take what's required. Prabhupāda: We want to live very plain and simple life. Reporter: You don't take anything that what? That doesn't require what? Bhajahari: That isn't required to keep body and soul together. Haṁsadūta: We want to live very simple. Plain living, high thinking. Prabhupāda: Well I . . . I, I am surprised. So why you don't ask anything about our philosophy? You are asking ordinary things. Reporter: Well I'm coming to that, I'm coming to that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: I'm coming to that, you see. Prabhupāda: That is most important thing. Reporter: It's just that, take . . . take . . . we want to take things as we get to them, you know. Prabhupāda: These are ordinary things. Either you sit on a chair or on the floor, it doesn't matter. Reporter: Umm. It can be uncomfortable sitting on the floor, if you're not used to sitting on the floor. Prabhupāda: No, we are very comfortable. Just see. Reporter: Oh, I can go into, in London, into a Japanese restaurant. They say: "Please would you sit on the floor?" and I'll say: "No, I'm . . . don't want to sit on the floor. Very uncomfortable having my meal and sitting here for two hours." So I go to a . . . Prabhupāda: Those who are uncomfortable, we offer him chair. Yes. Reporter: I go to a part of the restaurant where they have chairs, and I'm comfortable, you see. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You must sit comfortably. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we ask gentleman who comes here, "If you want chair?" If he says: "Yes, that will be nice," we give him chair. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So if you want chair, I can give you. Reporter: Oh, no. I'm moving around all the time, you see. Reporter: It said . . . it says on this little thing—I don't know who wrote it, uh, what's his, uh . . .? Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara. Reporter: Śyāmasundara. It says here that George comes twice a week. Is that right? Or twice. Has he only been here twice? Twice a week, or does he come twice? Prabhupāda: He has come twice. Sometimes twice a . . . Śrutikīrti: He sees Śyāmasundara many times a week. Prabhupāda: Oh, he sees Śyāmasundara many times, here. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara saw him last few days. Saw him today, yesterday. Reporter: What about . . . Prabhupāda: Actually Śyāmasundara, that Śyāmasundara has induced George to take some interest in our Society. He is friend. So he . . . George may come and see him twice in a week. *Reporter: But . . . so you could live . . . you talk about wanting to live simply. You could live simply in an ordinary house, not . . . you don't necessarily need a fifty*-five-bedroom house? Prabhupāda: No. If you offer, why shall I deny it? Reporter: Why should you . . .? Prabhupāda: If you, you, just like George has . . . Devotee: Deny it. Prabhupāda: . . . given us this house . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . similarly, if you give us a house, 155 rooms, we shall accept. Immediately. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: And we shall utilize it properly. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Not that we are neglecting. We are keeping. Just see, we are keeping this room very nicely, neat and clean. People come and sit down. Reporter: Were you surprised when he bought it for you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Had he met you . . .? Prabhupāda: He has paid £200,000 for this house. Bhajahari: 220,000. Reporter: He has paid £220,000? Bhajahari: Yes. Prabhupāda: (aside) . . . recurring charges . . .? Śrutikīrti: 220,000. Prabhupāda: 220,000. Devotees: That's right, yeah. Reporter: When did you know that he'd bought it? Did he write to you in India and tell you, or how did you know? Prabhupāda: No, Śyāmasundara talked with him. Śrutikīrti: Śyāmasundara is George's close friend, so that was arranged between Śyāmasundara and George. Reporter: Yeah, and then, and then they told the, uh . . . Śrutikīrti: Then they told Śrīla Prabhupāda later on that they'd done it. Reporter: Yeah, and then this is why he came over the week . . . to England, because he had this center? Prabhupāda: You have seen our London center? Reporter: No, I haven't. No. *Prabhupāda: That is very, very small house, although it is five*-story. That was not suitable. Reporter: Where is that? Prabhupāda: 7 Bury Place. Śrutikīrti: 7 Bury Place. Prabhupāda: 7 Bury Place. *Bhajahari: B*-u-r-y Prabhupāda: Bloomsbury. *Bhajahari: B*-u-r-y Haṁsadūta: Right behind the British Museum. Reporter: Why . . . that, that . . . that only had how many rooms? Prabhupāda: How many rooms? Bhajahari: Maybe had fifteen. Prabhupāda: Fifteen? No. Not so many. Śrutikīrti: Two rooms a floor. Prabhupāda: Not more than ten rooms. Haṁsadūta: Ten rooms, but very small rooms. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So that wasn't very suitable? Prabhupāda: Not suitable. We were about more than fifty devotees. *Śrutikīrti: Sixty*-seven devotees. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-seven devotees. So we wanted a bigger place. So Śyāmasundara told George that if he can give us a . . . give us some money, we can purchase. So he has purchased without taking any of our money. Reporter: Without taking any . . .? Prabhupāda: Our money. Śrutikīrti: Of our money. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: We have no money. Reporter: How many people belong to your sect in . . . in Britain? I mean, not just the fifty here. Are there others? Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got other centers—in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Birmingham, Dublin and . . . what other places? Bhajahari: Notting Hill Gate in London north. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So how many followers do you have? *Prabhupāda: Many followers. At least fifty men, not less than twenty*-five, in each center. Reporter: Well that could be . . . my arithmetic is not very good. How many . . . how many centers have you got? Prabhupāda: About half a dozen. Devotee: Six. Prabhupāda: Six. Reporter: So six centers of fifty men in each. *Bhajahari: No. Not less than twenty*-five. *Reporter: Not less than twenty*-five. So six fives are thirty, two sixes are twelve. That's 150. Bhajahari: Approximately. Reporter: About 150 members of your sect . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . in Britain, so far. Prabhupāda: No. We have got . . . just like George does not live with us, but he is also our . . . one of the members. Reporter: Oh, I see. Yeah. These are the people that live with you . . . Prabhupāda: Living. Reporter: There are . . . Prabhupāda: But there are many others who are living outside. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can take photograph of our temple. Down. Reporter: Oh, that's not the temple I've . . . you are preparing, you mean. Downstairs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: From the twenty*-second August it will be regular temple room. Reporter: Have you applied to the Home Office to stay here? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: Have you applied for permission to stay? Prabhupāda: No. I am going day after tomorrow to Paris. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then I will come back again, during the ceremony. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: In this way I am coming, going. I have got so many centers. I have to visit and see how things are going on. Reporter: But you're going st . . . this'll be your headquarters, will it? Prabhupāda: Yes. In Europe it will be my headquarters. Just like in America I have got my headquarter, Los Angeles. Reporter: In Los Angeles? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: In India I have got my headquarters, Māyāpur. Reporter: Yeah. This, uh, letter, we had talks about people like Peter Sellers, Donovan, Allen Ginsberg, "Aging seeker . . ." Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg came here. He comes to see me. Reporter: What about Peter Sellers? Prabhupāda: He sees . . . Bhajahari: He's coming tomorrow. Prabhupāda: He's coming tomorrow. He sees Śyāmasundara. Śrutikīrti: He's seeing Śyāmasundara. He was staying with some of our devotees in Mexico for the last two weeks. Prabhupāda: Lord Brockway came to see me the other day. Lord Fenner Brockway. Sir Alisty . . . Bhajahari: Alistair Hardy. Prabhupāda: . . . Hardy, he likes our movement. Reporter: Who? Lord Brockway came to see you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And what is this? That Professor, Sir Alistair . . . Haṁsadūta: Sir Alistair Hardy from Oxford University. Prabhupāda: He also came. And that editor. Many gentlemen come. Bhajahari: John Papworth. Reporter: Who? Bhajahari: John Papworth, from Resurgence . Reporter: Then, well, what about people like Graham Hill? Bhajahari: Yes. He was here about ten days ago. Reporter: Well what these people do? Prabhupāda: They talk about our philosophy. Therefore I was asking why don't you talk about philosophy. Reporter: Graham Hill came, uh . . . so all these—Sir Alistair Hardy, the Bishops of Kingston and Southwark. Have you seen them? Bhajahari: They're to come in the future. Reporter: Oh, they're coming in the future? Bhajahari: After. After Śrīla Prabhupāda returns from Paris. Reporter: But Dr. Ramsey, the Archbishop, is he coming? Bhajahari: After Paris. Reporter: Dr. Arnold . . . Haṁsadūta: (to Prabhupāda) In Paris, in Paris they have a . . . the Assistant Mayor will give you an official reception to the city in City Hall when you come there on the tenth . . . on the ninth, rather. Reporter: What about Dr. Arnold Toynbee? Has he been here? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I saw him. Bhajahari: Mr. Toynbee is very . . . he can't move around very much, so Prabhupada went to visit him. Reporter: Yeah. How did they get to know about your movement? How do these people—Graham Hill and Peter Sellers and—how do they, how do you think they get to know about you? Prabhupāda: (to devotee) How did you want to . . . Bhajahari: We are propagating. All the devotees here are propagating . . . Prabhupāda: You see, any movement, if it is approved by the leading men of the society, it gets the standard. Our movement is very scientific. Therefore we want the leading men. Just like you are a journalist, we wish that you also try to understand how important this movement is. And if you think that it is actually it is important, you should help us in propagation. That is our motive. Reporter: Yeah. So the Bishops of Southwark have gotta come; they, they're coming. Dr. Ramsey's coming. Have you, have you had any . . . do you write to Dr. Ramsey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, or . . .? Prabhupāda: No. I don't write. My assistant, they arrange meetings. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: I am . . . Reporter: He's gonna come to see you? Bhajahari: He's coming, yeah. Reporter: How do you know that? Bhajahari: Well, one boy is arranging all these meetings. Reporter: Oh, he's, yeah. I see. Now apart from eating and chanting, you must meditate, too. Do you here? Do you spend your time meditating? Prabhupāda: Meditate . . . do you know what is meditation? Reporter: Well, it's deep thought, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So we are always in meditation . . . Reporter: You're always in meditation. Prabhupāda: . . . because we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: Not that we meditate for five minutes and do nonsense twenty*-four hours. Not like that. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: We meditate twenty*-four hours. Reporter: Yeah. All the time, yeah. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our business. We don't make, "This is . . . this time are for meditation and this time is for slaughtering animals." We have no such thought. We meditate twenty*-four hours. That is our philosophy. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ ( CC Adi 17.31). Reporter: What about prayer? How much time do you spend in prayer? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prayer is also meditation. Reporter: Yeah, but how much time do you spend, then? *Prabhupāda: Our meditation is twenty*-four hours, in varieties of occupation. We are meditating chanting; we are meditating dancing; we are meditating eating; we are meditating preaching; we are meditating writing; we are meditating reading; *we are meditating singing. So these so*-called meditators, they close their eyes and sleep for some time—not like that. We have got our occupation, varieties, but each occupation is meditation. *Reporter: Yeah, but you get up at four*-thirty, apparently. This all starts at four-thirty, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes, maṅgala-ārātrika. Offering ārātrika , reception to the Lord. *Reporter: At four*-thirty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And all fifty of you are up at that time, are you? *Haṁsadūta: Well, before that, actually. Three*-thirty, four. Ceremony is at four-thirty. Reporter: What time do you go to bed, to sleep? *Haṁsadūta: Nine*-thirty, ten. Prabhupāda: Ten. Reporter: Ten. Prabhupāda: Six hours' sleeping. Reporter: You say you have a sort of lifestyle comparison with monks in monastery? Early rising and busy day and early to bed. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Reporter: Similar. Haṁsadūta: Rising early is very important. Reporter: Now what about your philosophy, then? What is your philosophy? Let's talk about philosophy. Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is this is God's creation. Everything what you see, that is God's creation. And He has created this cosmic manifestation with a purpose. As every . . . everyone creates something with a purpose, not whimsically. So we living entities, we are also one of the creation of God. So our business is to understand what is God, what is our relationship with Him, and act accordingly. That is . . . that is our constitutional position. Reporter: Well what does that in fact mean in practice? How do you act accordingly in practice? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are acting. We are rising early in the morning, we are offering reception to God, and we are chanting His glories, we are reading about His activities. So this is our understanding what is God. And then we are trying . . . people have forgotten God. They have become animals. They are interested simply eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is animal life. Animal has no other business than these four types of activities—how to eat, animal . . . Reporter: Sleeping . . . Haṁsadūta: Eating, sleeping, defending and mating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Animals eats, animal sleeps, animals have sex life, and animal also defend from enemies. So human being, at the present moment, they are also engaged in eating, how to eat; economic condition, developing how to sleep, big, big skyscraper building; and how to have sex life, freedom of boys and girls, just like hippies, to manage sex life without any restriction, like cats and dogs. So . . . and defending also. You might have discovered atomic bomb and other scientific method for defense—that is defense only. But these business are there in animals also. So what is the special business of human being? Can you tell me? Reporter: So what . . .? Prabhupāda: These four businesses—eating, sleeping, enjoy sex life and make defense, force—so these four things are done by the animals. So you also do in a different way, in a scientific way, but the business is the same. Reporter: So what do you do? You, you eat and sleep. So what else do you do? Prabhupāda: We . . . you, you have not yet marked? Our only eating, sleeping, everything is for God. Reporter: Yeah, but what else do . . . Prabhupāda: That is the difference. Reporter: Yeah, but, but that would, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. What else we are doing else? Nothing else. What you are doing, work, we also doing that. You are sleeping, we are sleeping; we are eating, I, we are eating. Reporter: Yeah, that's . . . Prabhupāda: So our business special is: whatever we do, that is to understand God. That is the difference. Reporter: But do you . . . you don't ban sex here, do you? I mean, do you ban sex here? Prabhupāda: Why? We have got; he is gṛhastha . This, this boy, he is writing note, he has got his wife. Reporter: His wife is here? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got separate department for gṛhastha s , householders. Reporter: Yeah, so, so sex isn't banned? Prabhupāda: Sex is allowed . . . Reporter: So sex is . . . Prabhupāda: . . . in married life, not outside. Reporter: So the only thing then that you're not doing that man is doing is defending. Prabhupāda: Huh? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: No, we are defense also. Suppose if you come to attack, I shall kill you, immediately. Reporter: Well, then, I don't see that, uh . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are surprised? Suppose you come to kill me, or set fire in my house: I shall immediately kill you. That is defense. If you want to . . . we, we take a man aggressor when he comes to take my property, when he comes to set fire in my house, and he comes to kidnap my wife. Then I must defend. Reporter: Yeah, well you . . . you haven't explained or you haven't understood what I'm asking. If you are eating, sleeping, you allow sex within a marriage . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . uh, and you'll defend yourself if I come to kill you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . what are you doing different than what everybody, you know . . .? *Prabhupāda: So that you have not still marked, you are so dull*-headed. We are doing everything for God, but you are doing everything for dog. That is difference. Reporter: How, how . . . explain why people are doing it for dog. Prabhupāda: We can see. So many people, they have become servant of dog. Takes the dog in the street: the dogs pass urine, he stands, waits. You see? You have not seen this? The same care we are taking for God. That is the difference. What care you are taking for the dog, the same care we are taking for God. That is the difference. Reporter: If I . . . if I wanted to join your, your group, do I have to give up everything? Prabhupāda: No. Why? The eating, sleeping . . . Reporter: No, no. Do I have to give up material things, like my job? Prabhupāda: So what material things we have given up? We are using this tape recorder. Reporter: So what about my job? Would I have to give up my job? Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can give up. We can provide you. You can give up your this job and join with us, and we shall give you shelter, food and everything. That much we can guarantee. Reporter: Do they have to give up? Do you, I mean, do your followers have to give up . . . Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: . . . working? Prabhupāda: No. You do not give up. Suppose you are journalist. You report God's activities, then you are a devotee. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then you are devotee. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: You are giving ordinary reports, but if you give daily a report what God's activities are, then you are devotee. The same business. This is our movement: that you have to do everything as you are doing, but do it for God. That's all. If you want to report God's activities, we can give you daily big, big columns of activities. *Reporter: The, uh, the arrival of fifty saffron*-robed, shaven-headed people in this little village must have excited the people who live here. Did you . . . had any contact with the villagers here? Prabhupāda: Well, anything new, it becomes little agitating. Reporter: Yeah. Have you had any trouble with the villagers here? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No complaints about your banging cymbals or . . .? Prabhupāda: So how they can complain? They haven't got . . . they have got a teeny house somewhere in the corner. We are chanting, dancing, in a big house, so they cannot hear it . . . Reporter: They can't hear you? Prabhupāda: . . . so how they complain? They have no opportunity. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because they are in the corner of the village, and we are living in the seventy acre of land, so how these . . . Reporter: Seventy acres? Seventeen acres. Prabhupāda: Seventeen acres. Yes. So how these poor people can be . . . hear about us? Reporter: Where do you, uh, where do you, are you . . . where are you normally based in India? Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Again you are coming to the common question. I . . . you have begun philosophy, and I must be living somewhere, Calcutta or hell, that doesn't matter. You are concerned what I am doing now. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What you will know, what you will gain, if I lived in Calcutta or in heaven or hell? You, you should know what I am doing, that's all. You should know our philosophy. Reporter: How do you recruit your members, then? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you come here, you will be member. Reporter: Yeah, but not everybody's gonna come out to, to . . . Prabhupāda: Just like George has become member. Reporter: Yes, but he went to India, didn't he? Prabhupāda: So if you come also, you will become member. Reporter: But, uh, I mean, how do people get to know about, apart from seeing your, your people in Oxford Street? Prabhupāda: My people go there. If you don't come, my people go. Just like he has written you a letter. Reporter: But do you knock on doors and that sort of thing, or do you just parade round the streets, your members? Prabhupāda: No. If I am called, I can go anywhere. I go to deliver lectures in meetings, if I am invited. Otherwise, my students do this business. Reporter: You're going to France to lecture, aren't you, next week? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Or tomorrow, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: But who are you going to lecture to there? Prabhupāda: That they have arranged. I will go and see what. Bhajahari: They have arranged in Paris. When he goes, he'll know. Reporter: Oh, you don't know at the moment who you are going to lecture to. Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No. Do you speak French? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: So you try to understand our philosophy and write in papers. That will be a great service for you. Devotee: Chair? Prabhupāda: Give him a chair. Devotee: Have a chair. Reporter: No, no, no. No, no, it's all right. Thank you. These people who have come to see you, like Graham Hill and, and uh, Sir Alistair Hardy, have they . . . have they joined your movement, or is it, was it just a philosophical discussion that you had with them? Prabhupāda: Well, they like it, they just . . . (break) . . . that you are a reporter, you report about God's activities, then you are giving service to God. That's all. Reporter: But, but what, but, how the . . . how are you initiated? Prabhupāda: That is official function, rituals. Reporter: It's like a baptism, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Like that. Reporter: And that takes place in your temple? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So George has not been initiated, in fact. He's just a . . . he's just a follower but not a, not a member? Prabhupāda: He is good follower. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Practical. Simply by shaving hair, that is not very important thing. But if he does actually some help, that is more than a devotee. Reporter: What's the purpose of shaving your head? Prabhupāda: Purpose is to lead very simple life, that's all. Clean. If you shave your hair, you remain clean. You don't require shampoo and soap and so many other things to keep the hairs in order. That is also economic profit. You save so much money. We are seeing . . . Reporter: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . in the Western countries, in the bathroom, there are so many bottles. Even in airplane. We don't require all these bottles. We save the money. We simply wash with water, that's all. At most little oil, that's all. Finish. Reporter: Is there a symbol, the fact you don't completely shave but you have a small piece . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, by shaving you keep your brain cooler. Reporter: By shaving you . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Yes, what is it? Śrutikīrti: A letter from Sir Alistair Hardy. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Here is the questions and answers. He is a research worker in religious experience, therefore we had many talks with him. (break) . . . very important man of the society to understand this, science of this philosophy. Our main business is we are also thinking deeply how the human being, human society, will be happy. That's all. As all the politicians or philosophers, scientists, they are thinking for the major benefit of the human society, we are also thinking, but we are thinking in terms of God consciousness. That is the difference. Reporter: But this, uh . . . Prabhupāda: (reading) He says: "I too hope that we may meet again and have a further discussion of these vital issues." Reporter: These are questions that you put to him personally . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Reporter: . . . but I, at a, at a . . . of meeting with him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Did he . . . did you go to Oxford, or did he come here? Prabhupāda: He came here. Reporter: I see, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have not read this portion? Reporter: Yes, I've read that. Prabhupāda: "I too hope we may meet again and have a further discussion on these vital . . ." So he has taken this movement seriously, that there is something to learn. Reporter: Yeah. And so you wish to influence the thinking, the . . . Prabhupāda: Not thinking—practical. Just like these four principles: no illicit sex . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . no intoxication. Reporter: No? Prabhupāda: No intoxication. Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: No gambling, and no meat*-eating or fish-eating. So we want to introduce these four principles in the society, because at the present moment the society is maintaining for killing poor animals big, big slaughterhouse. We can do it without. I have seen, yes, Western gentlemen, they eat meat, a little, small slice. But if they can give up that small slice, then we can save so many poor animals' life. But they will not do that. Although Christianity says: "Thou shall not kill," but they are very expert in killing. Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Why? Why the, unnecessarily, poor animals should be killed? And you are responsible for the sinful activities. We are now killing innocent animals small scale, and if there is world war, then the human being will be killed in the mass scale. The . . . this is the reaction. But they do not think of these things. They think, "We are free to kill the animals." But he does not know the nature will take revenge. Reporter: This, uh, talking about animals, this, this letter here says that you've got cows, and they're even at home in the hallways. It says: "At home in the rose beds and in the hallways." Do you have cows inside the house? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not for killing. Reporter: No, but you allow your cows to come through the house, do you? Prabhupāda: No, we take milk. Reporter: Yeah. But do they come inside the house, downstairs? Prabhupāda: Downstairs? I don't think any cow comes here. Reporter: Then what does that mean then, you know, "at home in the rose beds and in the hallways"? Haṁsadūta: Well, we have another house for the cow, (laughter) separate. We have a place for the cows. Reporter: Yeah. That's a cowshed? Haṁsadūta: Oh, I guess . . . Śrutikīrti: They've only come in once or twice, I mean. But that doesn't mean . . . Haṁsadūta: Sometimes they may walk in, but, because we are very friendly with the animals, we don't, uh . . . Reporter: So you wouldn't mind if a cow suddenly walked in? Haṁsadūta: Well, we keep them in their place, but sometimes . . . Prabhupāda: And on the whole . . . Reporter: I'm just understanding this . . . Prabhupāda: . . . we don't keep them for killing. That is not wanted. Reporter: Yeah. Haṁsadūta: The point is that we don't kill any animal for eating. A cow is here for milk. Reporter: And you work in the fields and gardens? You're growing food, are you? Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: In the, in the seventeen acres, you're growing food. And tropical greenhouses also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: You, you use those for growing . . .? Prabhupāda: Produce our vegetables. Haṁsadūta: Tomatoes. Reporter: (banging sounds) What's that I hear? Prabhupāda: Fruits, flowers, vegetables. Reporter: What's that I hear? Devotee: They're working on the temple room. Reporter: Oh, that's a hammer. Reporter: I thought . . . it was a hammer. I thought it was a knife . . . Haṁsadūta: I think we should get him a chair. Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't need. We have offered. Reporter: Why do we have to see you—if we want to interview you—why do we have to see you in the morning or after four? What happens between times? Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: Wants to know why interview time is set for four o'clock, after four. Because . . . *Prabhupāda: You want interview should go on twenty*-four hours? Reporter: Yeah, I see. You need a rest, do you? Prabhupāda: So we have got our scheduled time. We generally take our meals by two o'clock. Reporter: Do you take them communally? Do you all sit down together and eat? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: No? Not like a monastery, then, where you all . . . Prabhupāda: No, not like that. Reporter: Your, your married people live here in another part of the house, do they? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: With their children? Do you have children here? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: What do they get . . .? Prabhupāda: We are going to open a children's school. We have got already one children's school in Dallas, America. Reporter: Yeah, but what, what happens . . . have you got children here of school age? You know, ten, eleven, twelve? Bhajahari: No. Just one boy. He's five. Reporter: Oh, he's five. Well what, where is he going to go to school, if you don't have your school here? Bhajahari: Well we . . . we haven't one we're starting. Reporter: Oh, you're going to open a school here? Bhajahari: Yeah. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: We have our teachers. Reporter: Yeah. Will they come from India, or will they be people you've trained here? Prabhupāda: No. Local men. Why Indians? We have no such distinction. Reporter: Have you been in England during the winter at all, ever? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: And does that . . . Prabhupāda: Very bad experience. Reporter: Yes, but, uh, what . . . Prabhupāda: Everything becomes solidified. (laughter) Reporter: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So I went to Regents Park, and with my stick in the fountain, tung*-tung. Reporter: So how, you know, you . . . and yet you're gonna live here. I mean you're, you're an old man to be coming to a cold climate like this, aren't you? Prabhupāda: No. We have no objection. But because we come from India, this winter is little troublesome for us. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Otherwise I have, in winter, I have gone to Germany also. Russia it was not winter; it was June. So we are prepared to go anywhere. It doesn't matter. In Boston, I was there in a regular snowfall. Regular snowfall, storm snowfall. Still I was going on morning walk, on the snow. Reporter: How do you . . . if you travel all over the world like that, who pays for your traveling? How do you find the money for that? Prabhupāda: There are many person. These, my disciples, they pay. Reporter: I see that you are registered as a charity, it says here. Charity number 259649. Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept charity. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: We are allowed. The other day . . . where is that letter, that one gentleman sent hundred dollars? Haṁsadūta: He said, "Thank you very much . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes, "That you are preaching God consciousness." Haṁsadūta: ". . . you're . . . you have given us knowledge of God. Please accept my donation." Prabhupāda: In this way we are getting charity. There are many nice men in the world. They appreciate very much that in this godless society, we are the only person, our only business is to preach God consciousness. We are simply . . . we are particularly the only society who is insisting, "Don't take intoxication. Don't have illicit sex. Don't eat meat. Don't take part in gambling." Perhaps we are the only society. Reporter: You're the only religious society to do that, even religious society? Prabhupāda: No, apart from religious or political, we are advocating these four principles . . . Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: . . . to accept. Perhaps we are the only society who is doing that. Reporter: Yeah. This . . . Prabhupāda: We consider these are the four pillars of sinful life. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. *Prabhupāda: So if you remain sinful, you cannot become happy. That is nature's way. Why should we kill animals if we have got sufficient food otherwise? We can prepare many thousands of nice preparation from milk. After all, meat*-eating means eating the flesh and blood of cow. But if you take the milk, and if you can prepare from milk, you'll get the same benefit, material benefit, from casein, from milk preparation, from condensed milk—so many things—from ghee . This is more sensible. Milk is also blood, another transformation, so why you should slaughter and take blood directly? Why not take indirectly, by nature's way? You'll take the same benefit, and the poor animal is not killed. And I am surprised. I have not any satisfactory answer, whenever I ask any gentleman that if the Christian principle is first, "Thou shall not kill . . ." Reporter: Do you . . . do you regard yourself as human? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Reporter: Well, your followers seem to regard you as being superhuman. Prabhupāda: Yes. Superhuman means I am not acting as ordinary human being. Reporter: That's right. Do you regard yourself . . . Prabhupāda: I, yes, you can regard also, because we are engaged simply on God's business. Reporter: Yeah, but you personally, you . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: . . . do, do you regard . . . Prabhupāda: We are personally, personally engaged. What is my business? My business is that, "You stop your sinful life. Try to understand God." If you take it as superhuman, it is superhuman. But my business is nothing to show you anything miracle. I talk only that, "You do not indulge in these four principles of sinful life, and try to understand God." You can do also. Is it very difficult task? Reporter: But, but your followers seem to regard you as being, uh, some sort of holy . . . holy man. Prabhupāda: Because I am holy. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because I am not committing any sinful life, and I am preaching of God. That is I am holy. So everyone, my disciples, they are also holy. They have been following me. They are doing the same thing. And if you do that, you will become holy. Reporter: Are you married? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. Have you got children? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Where are they? Are they in India? Prabhupāda: In India. Calcutta. Reporter: You've got just one wife, have you? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Only one wife. How many children have you got? Prabhupāda: I have . . . I have got two sons and two daughters. Reporter: Are they members of your sect? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Reporter: Are they, have they been initiated into your . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. But because I am a sannyāsi , I cannot live with them. Reporter: Because you're a . . .? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsi. Sannyāsi means renounced family connection. Reporter: You've renounced family connections. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sannyāsa . We have got four division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha , vānaprastha and sannyāsa . First of all a man is trained how to become brahmacārī , celibate life. Then he is allowed to marry. Then after some days he gives up the connection of family and travels in holy pilgrimages. Reporter: In holy . . .? Devotee: Pilgrimage. Prabhupāda: Holy places. And then he takes sannyāsa , renounce. This is our Vedic principle. So at the end of life . . . suppose you live for a hundred years—nobody is living for a hundred years—anyway, the injunction is when one is fifty years old he should give up family connection and simply live for God's sake, for God's business. This is Vedic civilization. Reporter: How long have you been a member of the Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness then? Prabhupāda: Just . . . it is started by me. Reporter: Started by you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: How long ago? Prabhupāda: In 1966. Reporter: '66. But how long have you been, uhhh . . .? Haṁsadūta: Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Kṛṣṇa, yes, the devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is lifelong, from my birth. Reporter: From your birth. Yeah. Prabhupāda: Because my father was also devotee. He trained me. Reporter: Yeah. Started in 1966. Prabhupāda: Our whole family was devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But this movement was started by me, in New York in 1966. Reporter: Apart from George Harrison, have you ever met any of the other three Beatles? Uh, Paul, John . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, I . . . I do not, but Śyāmasundara meets. That Ringa, Ringa? Haṁsadūta: Ringo. Reporter: Ringo. Haṁsadūta: John. Reporter: John. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was guest in John's house. Yes. I was guest. John also, met me. He made me, made me guest in his house in 1968. Haṁsadūta: '68, yes. Prabhupāda: What is that, Tittenhurst? Haṁsadūta: Tittenhurst. Prabhupāda: Tittenhurst Park. Reporter: And what about Ringo? Prabhupāda: I remained there for one month. Reporter: Ringo and Paul? Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara, he . . . Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara . . . Haṁsadūta: Śyāmasundara, he, he had . . . he is always associating with these people. Reporter: Well who is Śyāmasundara? Who is he? Prabhupāda: He is my secretary. Haṁsadūta: He is a secretary. Prabhupāda's secretary. Reporter: He's not here today? Prabhupāda: He is . . . he is in London. He is come at seven. Reporter: Have you talked to other members of the British press at all this, this week? Prabhupāda: I do not know. They arrange. Reporter: This week? Prabhupāda: They arrange. Haṁsadūta: No. This week, not yet. Reporter: Not yet. We're the first, are we? Somebody said they've sent out a . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we've sent to everyone. Reporter: Yeah. Somebody said something arrived here this afternoon from some, from another paper. Is that right? Haṁsadūta: I think they . . . probably talking . . . Bhajahari: Yes. No, not this time. Another paper. Haṁsadūta: Another paper. Reporter: What paper was that? Bhajahari: The Daily Mail . Reporter: The Daily Mail . When are they coming back? Bhajahari: This evening, they said. Reporter: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: After four, people come here, up to nine. Reporter: Four people coming tonight? Devotee: No. After four o'clock they come all day. Prabhupāda: People, guests, they come to see me . . . Reporter: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: . . . from four to nine o'clock. Reporter: Do you play that? Prabhupāda: What's that? Reporter: Do you play? Do you play that? Prabhupāda: Sometimes, yes. Reporter: What is it? Prabhupāda: This is harmonium. Reporter: Harmonium is it? Oh. Yeah. Do you just travel with . . . just lightly, do you? You just travel as you stand up, do you, when you go, when you travel abroad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: You don't take anything with you, apart from books or something? Prabhupāda: Books are there in every center. Reporter: Oh, they're there already. So you just go like that, do you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? Reporter: Well, I've seen some of the books, but I'd like to see some of the house. This looks like the only part of the house that's, uh, furnished. Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got some other rooms also. Reporter: Is it? Haṁsadūta: (to other devotee) Do you want to take him around? You want to see . . . you'll have a complete . . . go around the grounds and see everything. Reporter: Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda . Reporter: They're too rich. I've had it before. Reporter: What is it? It's like marzipan is it? Devotee: Yes, something good like that. Reporter: Little rich, I find. Haṁsadūta: Take a little. Take a little. Reporter: No, I'll pass on that. Prabhupāda: So give him something poor. (laughter) Reporter: I have traveled to India and such places, and so . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Give him little fruit. That is poor. (laughter) Reporter: Yeah, it is rich, isn't it? Hmm. Well, we're going to see around the house. Reporter: Yes. Is it, um . . . I want to take a picture of the house, actually, from outside. Haṁsadūta: Yes, we could do that. Reporter: That is presumably at the end of the garden. Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is the best place to take pictures. Also very sunny. Reporter: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . our philosophy . . . advent it . . . it is good for human being. Reporter: It's not possible to get . . . guru out into the garden, is it, at all? Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Reporter: Is that possible, so I could have him in the sunshine? Haṁsadūta: Oh. Prabhupāda . . . oh, well, Pra . . . (break) (end) Interview -- August 7, 1973, London (Interview with Reporter) - (poor recording) Reporter: (indistinct) . . . what happened . . . (indistinct) . . . photographer, who is coming any time, any time now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So I would be grateful if I could just talk to you for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Reporter: Um, the, ah . . . when did you arrive in this country, sir? Prabhupāda: Just . . . these questions, he can answer. *Haṁsadūta: Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . tape*-recorder. *Reporter: Why are you tape*-recording the conversation? *Haṁsadūta: Oh, we tape*-record everything, because everything Prabhupāda says is very important. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . comes from the book. Reporter: I see. (pause) Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda . . . you want to know when he arrived in London? July seventh. Reporter: July seventh. Is this the first time that he has been . . . Haṁsadūta: No, Prabhupāda has been here often, very often before. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: We have another center downtown. Reporter: In London? Haṁsadūta: Yes, it is 7 Bury Place, right behind the British Museum. Reporter: I see. Yes. And when was this house given to you? Haṁsadūta: Oh, I think in May. George Harrison, he donated this house to Prabhupāda for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Did he in fact . . . how much did he pay for the house? Haṁsadūta: Ah, about £220,000. Reporter: Does he still own the house? Haṁsadūta: Erm . . . it's in a special trust, of which the proceeds go to our society. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: You have to excuse me . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yeah, sure Haṁsadūta: A plug in, and then I can speak with you. Reporter: Ah. What does "prophet" mean? You call him prophet? Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda? Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda means the master at whose feet, or at whose lotus feet, all the other masters take shelter. Reporter: Yes. How long has Prapoom been leading this faith? Haṁsadūta: Hmm . . . Reporter: Do you call it a religion, or do you call it a faith? What do you call it? Spiritual movement, is it? Haṁsadūta: Just a minute. (making some technical adjustments) Okay. Prabhupāda, he came to America in 19 . . . 1965. Reporter: Yes. Where did he come from originally? Haṁsadūta: He was born in Calcutta, in India. Reporter: What is his background? Haṁsadūta: He was educated in Scottish Churches, and he was a businessman. Chemical company, manager of a chemical, pharmaceutical supply house. Reporter: Where? In Calcutta? Haṁsadūta: Well, in India, different parts Reporter: India. When was that? Haṁsadūta: That was in . . . (indistinct) . . . in his early life he . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yeah. And when did he start this religion? *Haṁsadūta: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a religion, but Prabhupāda . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very old, you know. The Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken over five thousand years ago. So it is the oldest literature in the world. So Prabhupāda is an ācārya , or spiritual teacher. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: A pure devotee, in the line of disciplic succession . . . Reporter: When . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . which is coming down from Kṛṣṇa. So . . . Reporter: When did he first start doing . . . Haṁsadūta: He came to America in 19 . . . *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-five. Haṁsadūta: 1965, under the order of his spiritual master, to spread this, this eternal teaching in the English language. Reporter: Until that time had he been teaching in the Indian language? Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda has, practically, Prabhupāda has been a devotee from birth. He was born in a family of Vaiṣṇavas, or Kṛṣṇa devotees. Reporter: Yes, I see. Haṁsadūta: And all his life, dedicated to preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: Yes, and . . . but what . . . at what stage in his life did he abandon his career in business? Haṁsadūta: In business? Prabhupāda: About sixty . . . I was born in 1896 and I left my home in 1954. 1896 to 1954. *Haṁsadūta: Fifty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I came to America in 1965. But I left my home in 1954. *Reporter: Fifty*-four, yes. This is when you abandoned your career in business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: Yes. What made you decide to abandon a career in business? Prabhupāda: This is our system. At a certain age, we must give up our family life. This is Vedic system. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no question of decision. According to Vedic system, a man's duration of life is divided into four. The first portion is called brahmacārī , or student life. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to twenty . . . suppose one man lives, take it for granted, one hundred years. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So first twenty*-five years, he becomes a rigid brahmacārī . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Means completely celibacy. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: And austerity, penance and education. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Up to twenty*-five years. *Reporter: Twenty*-five. Yes. Prabhupāda: Then he becomes married, householder. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he remains up to his fiftieth year. Reporter: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So within this twenty*-five years, whatever children he gets, they are grown up, so the husband and wife goes out of home . . . Reporter: Okay. Prabhupāda: . . . touring all over holy places. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, when gradually he becomes unattached to wife also, the wife comes back home and the husband takes sannyāsa , the renounced order. This is the Vedic system. It is not a question of decision; it is the system . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . that one should live in this way. Reporter: Yes. Do you have a wife and family, sir? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Can I ask you, how many children do you have? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got two daughters and two sons. Reporter: And your wife, she is still living, is she? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are living at my home in Calcutta. Reporter: You still see them occasionally? Prabhupāda: No. Reporter: You don't? Because this is that part of your life, is that right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: So how do you spend your life now, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: How do you spend your life now? Where is your home now? Prabhupāda: My home is in Calcutta. Reporter: But not with your family. Prabhupāda: No, my wife with her children . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they are living in their house in Calcutta. Reporter: In Calcutta, yes. Haṁsadūta: He wants to know what is the nature of your life there . . . Reporter: But you still see . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no, I don't see. Reporter: You don't see them. Haṁsadūta: Right. Prabhupāda: I'm strictly prohibited to see my wife. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: But my children may come and see me. Reporter: But your children may see you, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they come sometimes. Reporter: So you have a home as well, also a home in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: And you spend . . . do you travel extensively over the world . . . around the world, I believe. Prabhupāda: Because I am now sannyāsī . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So I have no home at all. A sannyāsī is supposed to have no home. He is touring. Just like here, although I am supposed to be the owner of everything . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but I don't possess anything. It is the possession of the Society. Reporter: I see. How many members do you have in your Society? Prabhupāda: We have got many members. About . . . members and admirers, about 10,000, in the Western countries. Reporter: Ten thousand in the Western countries. What about in the East? Haṁsadūta: Everyone. Reporter: I see. Prabhupāda: East, everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Reporter: I see. Now, there are many movements which seem to emanate from India at the moment in this country. The most popular recently is a Mahārāji*-ji. Now, how do you regard these other . . . Prabhupāda: Do you think he is very popular? Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Do you think so? Reporter: Well, it seems he gets a lot of people at the rallies. They have rallies, and they have many people there. Prabhupāda: But they have no center. We have got about one hundred centers. And in each center . . . (aside) You show. Haṁsadūta: This is our Los Angeles center. Prabhupāda: Similarly, we have got in every center. Haṁsadūta: Los Angeles center. Reporter: In Los Angeles. *Prabhupāda: I don't think this Mahārāj*-ji has got such thing. Reporter: No. But how do you regard these other people? Do you regard them as impostors? Prabhupāda: Yes, because anyone who is not God conscious . . . most of them, they come, they pose themself as God. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is most ludicrous. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: We hate them. *Reporter: They pose themselves as God and like to drive around in Rolls*-Royce cars. *Prabhupāda: Rolls*-Royce car, that is another thing. Anyone can travel . . . but when they say that . . . when somebody says that, "I am God," then immediately we kick on his face. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is the most impostor. And the foolish person only follow them, because they do not know what is God. Reporter: Hmm. Are you . . . are you a rich man, sir? Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: Are you a rich man? In financial terms? Prabhupāda: No. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda is a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī means he has renounced everything. He has no money, he doesn't acquire anything. His business is simply to preach the message of Kṛṣṇa. What he is a preacher of God, a servant of God. Reporter: What is the message, in fact, of Kṛṣṇa? Haṁsadūta: Yes, the message . . . Prabhupāda: Message is that everything belongs to God. Even ourself, we belong to God. Therefore everything should be used for satisfying God. This is our message. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have written about more than one dozen books, big books, and such small books about twenty, thirty like this. Small books. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: To help people understand this philosophy. Reporter: yoga is part of the religion? *Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is called bhakti*-yoga . yoga , devotion. yoga of love, love of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: So these, we are publishing at least fifteen books like this. Reporter: I see. Haṁsadūta: They have all authorized scripture. They are more than five thousand years old, these scriptures. And we are distributing them all over the world in different languages, like German, English, Japanese, Hindi, like that. All the pictures and everything are made by our students. Reporter: How do you view the Christian religion? I mean, are these religions valid in your eyes? Prabhupāda: The religion is quite valid, but the followers are not valid. Reporter: No. Because they're not dedicating themselves . . . Prabhupāda: Not only that; they are violating the orders of Jesus Christ. Just like Christ said: "Thou shall not kill." But they are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So it is very difficult to find out a strict Christian. Reporter: Yes. How is it possible sir, if, for someone who is totally dedicated to your religion, how is it possible for them to survive in a world that demands people go out to work for a living? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa has helped us. Just like we had no house, but Kṛṣṇa has given us this house through George. Reporter: But I mean, do your followers work, in the . . .? Prabhupāda: No, we do not work like ordinary men. Reporter: But I mean there must be a . . . but we couldn't live our life like this. People have got to work, have they not? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the mistaken philosophy, that people has got to work. That is a mistaken philosophy. Nobody has got to work. Just like work means . . . suppose if you have given me food, bread. I go there and take my food. Do you think it is work? Reporter: No, but somebody has to . . . Prabhupāda: First of all answer this. You have offered me some dish here. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So I go and eat. Do you think it is work? Reporter: No, that isn't work. Prabhupāda: If you think that going from here to that place is work, that is another thing. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But if my food is there, so I have to go and take it. Similarly, for everyone there is food and shelter . . . Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: . . . ordered by God . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but you have to take it. Reporter: But I mean somebody has to make tables and chairs and carpets and . . . Prabhupāda: That is your artificial need. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have created this need. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like other living entities, they also sleep. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But they do not have apartments or nice bedstead, nice table. That has not hampered their sleeping. Reporter: No, no. Prabhupāda: You have created these artificial needs. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But without this, it does not hamper your eating or sleeping. Your . . . your . . . you have got certain amount of energy. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That energy was to be utilized for designating or to search out God. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: But you are misusing this energy by . . . for manufacturing table and chair. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: You can live even without table and chair. Reporter: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: But if you live without God consciousness, then immediately you become to the status of animals. Because they live without God consciousness. Reporter: Yes. Are there any animals which you regard as sacred? I know in the Hindu faith, where the, erm . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is for everyone. But others, they have no brain. Just like cow. We drink cow's milk . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . therefore she is our mother. So how can you kill your mother? Can you? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Then how you kill cows? Because milk you drink. Is that very a gentleman's philosophy? Reporter: Well, the people would starve. Prabhupāda: People are not . . . Reporter: People would starve if we didn't . . . Prabhupāda: Starve? Without eating flesh? Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: This is another nonsense. We are not eating flesh. Reporter: What in fact do you eat? Are you vegetarian? Haṁsadūta: Yes, we eat . . . (indistinct) . . . we eat vegetables, fruit, milk products, sugar, grains and nuts. Reporter: Yes, what . . . Haṁsadūta: We don't eat meat, fish or eggs. Reporter: What about alcohol? Haṁsadūta: We follow four principles very strictly: no meat, fish or eggs; we don't take any intoxication whatsoever, no cigarettes, tea or coffee; and we don't indulge in illicit sex life; and we don't gamble. Reporter: What about marriage? Is marriage a part of . . .? Haṁsadūta: Yes, sex life is allowed, but, under condition that one gets himself married, and once married no divorce, no abortion . . . (indistinct) . . . sex life for producing children only. Reporter: Yes. Yes. Yes. How many followers are here, living in the house? Haṁsadūta: About fifty. Reporter: About fifty. What is the breakdown for nationalities? What nationalities are there? Haṁsadūta: Well, most of them, of course, are English, but there are . . . Reporter: And these English who have become followers . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Reporter: English . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . we don't make any distinction here between English . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Everyone is welcome. Reporter: Yes. Before you were given this house, where in fact did you live? Haṁsadūta: We were staying, and we still have, Bury Place, that I told you. Reporter: Yes. I see. Haṁsadūta: 7 Bury Place. So George donated this house because he appreciates the movement. So we are using this house. Reporter: Does George have any position within the movement at all? Haṁsadūta: He doesn't have any. He is a follower. He is helping us. Prabhupāda: He also gave me formerly $19,000, for printing that *Kṛṣṇa Book* . Haṁsadūta: That we showed you. Reporter: When he, and other members of the Beatles, went to India, it was not you that they saw, was it, sir? Prabhupāda: No, I met him here. Reporter: You met him here, yes? Haṁsadūta: George, he paid for the printing of this book. Reporter: Ah, yes. Haṁsadūta: A few years ago. Prabhupāda: In the Preface I have acknowledged. (aside) You show him the Preface. I have acknowledged. Reporter: Spiritually, if he printed the book, that's nice. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . preface. Haṁsadūta: All our books are very nice. "My grateful acknowledgement is due to Śrīmān George Harrison, now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, for his liberal contribution of $19,000 to meet the entire cost of printing this volume. May Kṛṣṇa bestow upon this nice boy further advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Reporter: Is there . . . most of the . . . do you have age limits as far as that is concerned? Haṁsadūta: No. Reporter: I mean, from what age can you become a member? *Haṁsadūta: Well, Prabhupāda is about seventy*-five. (laughs) Reporter: But are you . . . what age do you start? Haṁsadūta: Any age. Even children. Reporter: But I mean most of the followers, I would think, are in their twenties. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, they are all between about 16 to 25, you know. Reporter: This is . . . why . . . have you any older members who . . .? Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have older members too. But we have older members who are . . . just like you are. Prabhupāda: Our Bhakti Pramode is another businessman; *he is also sixty*-five. Reporter: Where will you go . . .? What are you doing this week, sir? What are your plans? Prabhupāda: Our plan is . . . Haṁsadūta: We are going to Paris tomorrow. Reporter: Paris? What is happening there? Haṁsadūta: There is a ceremony at our new temple . . . Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . and the mayor of the city of Paris will receive Prabhupāda in city hall. Reporter: I see. And from there what will happen? Haṁsadūta: Then we will come back to London. Reporter: Back to London. And then? *Haṁsadūta: And here at the Manor, on the twenty*-first and twenty-second . . . Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . there is a very big . . . Reporter: August, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . celebration . . . (indistinct) . . . birthday, or appearance day, of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So it is the most important event, a holiday, or . . . Reporter: Yes. I see. Are you hoping to, obviously, get more members in the movement, are you? Haṁsadūta: Well, we want people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious; we want people to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And if they just . . . Reporter: Yes . . . what does "Hare Kṛṣṇa" mean? Haṁsadūta: Hare Kṛṣṇa is . . . Hare is the energy of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the name, God, the Personality of Godhead. Reporter: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Kṛṣṇa, and Rādhā is also . . . (indistinct) . . . so we are calling to Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, please accept us please engage us in Your service." Reporter: Kṛṣṇa is God? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Reporter: I'm . . . I see . . . hmm. Fine. Do you enjoy life, sir? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Do you enjoy life? Prabhupāda: What do you think? Reporter: I think yes. I think yes. Prabhupāda: Practically, we are enjoying life. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are simply wasting their time for working hard. Reporter: Yes. Do you go outside, sir, or do you stay inside all the time? Prabhupāda: No, if there is important engagement, I go. Reporter: Yes. How do you travel normally? By car or by plane? Prabhupāda: No, any, anything available—plane, car . . . Reporter: Will you be going to Paris in a special plane, or will you be going . . . Haṁsadūta: No. Normal flight. Reporter: Normal flight. Prabhupāda: I came here first by . . . Haṁsadūta: Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Helicopter. Haṁsadūta: From the Heliport. Reporter: Oh! (laughter) Prabhupāda: Drop . . . dropped here. Dropped here. Haṁsadūta: Right here on the lawn. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) From the airport, I dropped. Reporter: Are you . . .? Prabhupāda: Within five or ten minutes. Haṁsadūta: You see, we are not against using anything at all . . . (indistinct) . . . because we are engaged in . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa, therefore flying . . . (indistinct) . . . everything we use, but we use it for Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Do people have to pay money to join your group, or do they have to give something? Haṁsadūta: No, they don't . . . they don't have to give something. Reporter: Because I understand with this other movement, if you . . . Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . kingdom of God. So why should you pay? Reporter: Well, this is the point. I just wondered if . . . how . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are making some business. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, it's a business. Prabhupāda: It is not . . . it is a science, it is not . . . Reporter: I am just wondering how in fact you are managing to survive, you know, to . . . Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now, just imagine, this house was 220 . . . Haṁsadūta: Thousand Prabhupāda: . . . thousands of pounds. So, suppose a man is working, just like you are working. How long years you will have to take to accumulate this money and purchase this house? How long years? Reporter: I don't know, really. (laughter) Prabhupāda: But we, without doing anything, we have got this house.Yes. Similarly, we are getting our food, nice foodstuff. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, everything is there by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement. The foolish people, they do not understand. They unnecessarily work hard. Of course, we do not wish to disclose this. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Ah, but this is the fact. But you can understand that those who are lower than the human being . . . Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they have no business, they have no profession, they have no education, so how they are living? Reporter: Not very well. Prabhupāda: Therefore the birds and beast, they have no education in the university, neither they are professional. Neither they have any accumulated bank account. Nothing of the sort. In the morning they do not know where to eat and where to go, but have you seen ever, any bird has died of starvation? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Ah. So there are 8,400,000 forms of life. The civilized human form of life is one of them. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if 8,000,000 species of life can exist without any endeavor for economic development, why this 400,000 species . . . not 400,000; out of 400,000 species of human form, maybe 200 . . . not even 200, less than that, this is civilized man. So how many there are? Why they are busy? But that's all right, you remain busy, but we should try to understand that simply by endeavoring, one cannot become happy. That is not possible. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Suppose everyone is endeavoring to become very rich man. Does he become so? Reporter: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: So then why? Another man, without doing anything, he is born in a very rich family and he gets money immediately. What is the cause of this distinction? Is there any cause for what is happening, whatever . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: One is born with riches. Reporter: Yes. Prabhupāda: And one is working hard like an ass. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He cannot get sufficient food even, daily. No. For this difference, is there any cause, or this is happening automatically? Reporter: All people are born with different values . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Reporter: Each one has learned particular habits . . . Prabhupāda: Who is judging their values? That is the question. Suppose, if I am judging, "All right, you get one million dollars from him,"I am judging and I give another man, "You should be hanged." The judge . . . the judge is not anyone's enemy, but he says that this man should be hanged and this man should get one million dollars from that person. Reporter: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, is the judge friend of that man who is awarded one million dollars? And is he enemy to that man who is to be going to be hanged? Reporter: No, it doesn't work quite like that. We don't have hanging in this country . . . Prabhupāda: No, I . . . you are . . . Reporter: No, I see the point you're making. But it doesn't, ah . . . anyway . . . Prabhupāda: But you could not answer this. Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: But I am answering so many questions, you should answer this. Reporter: Are you hoping, sir, to get, erm, more followers over here in this country? Prabhupāda: If my movement is genuine, I'll get more. But to become member of our Society is little difficult. Reporter: Is it? Prabhupāda: "Is difficult" means because we have got four kinds of prohibitions. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: It is not like other camps, that you can do any nonsense and you become a member. Reporter: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No . . . (indistinct) Reporter: A person . . . a person has to be prepared to dedicate his life . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that; *he has to give up meat*-eating, illicit sex, gambling. It is very, very difficult. Reporter: What about his family? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Living with family. Does he have to leave home? Prabhupāda: No. He can do . . . but he can live in home with a wife and children on these principles. Reporter: Yes. Do you find, sir, that many people who join you leave very quickly? Prabhupāda: No. He is a gṛhastha , he is a householder. He has got his wife. Reporter: Running out of time. So I did have a photographer with me. I think he would want to take a photograph . . . I think you would like to . . . (indistinct) . . . outside, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) (pause, as things are moved around for a photograph) Prabhupāda: I have . . . (indistinct) . . . put hard question, this . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) . . . they will never accept God. Haṁsadūta: (laughs) Prabhupāda: Anyway. Never mind. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ah. Haṁsadūta: I told you . . . (indistinct) . . . preach, you know. Prabhupāda: Ah. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) (knock on the door) Prabhupāda: Yes? Reporter: He doesn't appear to arrived . . . (indistinct) Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct) . . . then we can . . . (indistinct) Reporter: Thank you very much indeed. Prabhupāda: Now give him some prasādam . Haṁsadūta: Take all of it. Reporter: What is it? Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . milk preparation, very nice sweet, and offered to Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . nice, eh? Reporter: Thanks very much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Reporter: (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . very clean . . . Reporter: Thank you. Haṁsadūta: Okay. Thank you . . . (indistinct) (reporter leaves) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . principle and principal , they have two meanings. Haṁsadūta: Oh. Prabhupāda: But you have written principal . Haṁsadūta: I see. (Prabhupāda is turning some papers) Prabhupāda: Yes. Just learn from the dictionary, the principal and principle, they are two different words. (end) Conversation -- August 12, 1973, Paris *(Conversation with Yadubara About Early Life & Childhood Ratha*-yäträ Festival) *Prabhupāda: . . . of the same age of neighboring quarters, they will join. There will be feast, procession, saṅkīrtana , everything in miniature form. And my father will be spend. He will not hesitate. Yes. Therefore, my father's friends used to joke the "Ratha*-yātrā ceremony is going on at your home, and you do not invite us. What is this?" (laughs) Father would reply, "They are all children playing." "Oh, children playing. You are avoiding us by the name of children." It was regular procession. And for eight days there was feasting. Yadubara: That was at the same time as the big procession? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yadubara: That was the same time as the big procession? *Prabhupāda: Yes. During the Ratha*-yātrā festival. Eight days, eight different varieties of foodstuff my mother would cook and offer to Jagannātha. Daily bhoga-ārātrika , decoration with flowers. It was regular. Yadubara: What did the cart look like? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yadubara: What did the ratha cart look like? Just a miniature of the one at Purī? Prabhupāda: That I can give you diagram. I will give. Because I played with, I remember perfectly. Yadubara: What about . . . did the girls participate? Did the . . . Prabhupāda: No . . . Yadubara: Small girls? Prabhupāda: Small girls, they participated, one or two. Yadubara: How many boys were there? Prabhupāda: All . . . not less than a dozen. And then public will gather. So it was regular procession. Not very big. Everyone knew that, "It is children; they are playing." Yadubara: Did they play at . . . Prabhupāda: The ratha, ratha I used to decorate myself, painting, with color. I will give you a diagram of the ratha . (Prabhupāda draws) (break) Covering. This is diagram. Yadubara: So this was . . . it is not solid inside, so that you could see through. Prabhupāda: No, there were many columns. Sixteen columns supporting. Śrutakīrti: Like the ratha cart here, with the columns? The wooden . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Here there is not column. Yadubara: This was horse? Prabhupāda: Yes. Wooden horse. Yadubara: This is driver. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: What kind of clothing did the boys wear, did you wear? Prabhupāda: No, no, ordinary. Yadubara: Just shorts? Prabhupāda: No, ordinary . . . yes, dhotī and shirt. Yadubara: Dhotī and shirt. Prabhupāda: Someone without any shirt, because it is summer season. So there was no particular dress. Yadubara: And were there instruments you were playing? Prabhupāda: Yes, on this khol, karatāla , then that chaazh . Where is our Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Devotee: I'll go and get him. Prabhupāda: And call also Haṁsadūta. Yadubara: When you did Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yadubara: When you did Deity worship as a child . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Yadubara: . . . how did you do? Prabhupāda: I would imitate the brahmiṇs and my father. Yadubara: With the lamp and the incense? *Prabhupāda: Everything, complete. I would perform ārātrika and offer prasādam . Rādhā*-Govinda Deities, there was altar decorated, small Deity, daily changing cloth. Everything. Offering obeisances. Everything. *Yadubara: When you . . . would the ratha ceremony go on in the court of Rādhā*-Govinda temple, in the courtyard? Prabhupāda: No, that was . . . they are separate. I was doing in my . . . but I was imitating how the worship is going on there. *Yadubara: Would the ratha cart . . . was that going on in the courtyard, Rādhā*-Govinda? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The first courtyard from the road. That circle? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Just inside. Prabhupāda: There inside there, and stay for some time, then again circling, go away. Our house was . . . you know that Mullik's house? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was also Mullik's house, our. Our number was 151, and in the middle there was 153, and their house is 155. Just moment. Have you written anything about that article? Pradyumna: Yes, I'm just finishing editing it. Prabhupāda: Alright. That's alright. Then you shall send it on. *Haṁsadūta: Ah*-huh. When he is finished. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: So part of the movie, it calls for either some narration by yourself . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yadubara: Or It calls for some narration, either by yourself or by someone else. Prabhupāda: No. Someone else can narrate. Yadubara: We wanted to describe the Deity worship, why we are worshiping Deities, because people . . . *Prabhupāda: I was simply imitating because my father was worshiping, and we were always going that Mullik's Rādhā*-Govinda temple, their festival. We are practically same family. I was known as one of the children of Mullik's family. Others, other neighborhood men, they would know that I was belonging to their family. Because the house in which we are living, that belonged to the Mullik family, one partner. Yadubara: I saw that beautiful room, very aristocratic room, with chandelier and glass. Prabhupāda: They were . . . now they have reduced. Otherwise they were the most aristocratic family of Calcutta. Kashinath Mullik. There are roads and names, Kashinath Mullik name. We belonged to . . . the house where we were living, that was Kashinath Mullik's second brother. Second brother. So his wife was living, and she was a distant relative, grandmother, of me. So she had no children. So we were living. With some relative he (she) was living. Yadubara: So we wanted to explain to the in the movie to people in general how the Deity worship is authorized: how it's not worshiping just stone, how the Deity is actually Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: Things like that. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's quality, they are all the same. That you know. You can explain. Yadubara: Also we wanted to give some, just some very brief explanation of your past: how you were attached to Kṛṣṇa from the very beginning of your life, how your friends offered you intoxication. *Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga bhraṣṭo sañjāyate ( BG 6.41). It has come from previous life. Therefore I was given the opportunity to take birth in that family, Kṛṣṇa association. And my father was a great Vaiṣṇava. So śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ. Both things were confirmed. My father was śuci, and although I did not belong to that family, but I was born in that aristocratic family and I was raised amongst them. So that confirms: this Kṛṣṇa consciousness coming from previous life. And some very authorized astrologers said that in my previous life I was a physician, and I did not commit any sinful act. He said like that. The only, if it is taken as sinful, I killed some snakes for medicinal purpose. Otherwise I did not commit any sin. He said like that. (laughing) And it is right, because I had tendency in my childhood play to imitate the physician. I would keep some medicine, and my playmates would come, I would feel their pulse and give some medicine. (devotees laugh) This was my play, I remember. Yes. Some powders. Haṁsadūta: Pills? Prabhupāda: No, pills . . . (laughs) very small child at the time. So I would play that my playmates would come as patient, they would stand. I would give them some medicine. (chuckles) Haṁsadūta: And still you are giving medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes, I was doing medicinal business. I was appointed Dr. Bose's laboratory manager. Haṁsadūta: But still you are giving medicine. You are giving Kṛṣṇa medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhavauṣadhi . I know to prepare so many medicines still. Practically all allopathic medicine I can prepare. Āyurvedic also, some of. What is that there written in the book, I can prepare. So that confirms my previous life also. Yadubara: We wanted to include some very brief notes on your family. You had some family life and business. Prabhupāda: Family, my father was a businessman. He was doing business. Although we were living the most aristocratic family, my father was middle class. In those days about five hundred rupees' income—it was not very much. But seventy years ago five hundred rupees means nowadays twenty times. Everything has gone up ten times, twenty times. We were purchasing at that time rice. My father had hobby: there must be full stock of rice, at least for six months. Rice and fuel and ghee and potato he would stock. So we had no difficulties. Everything was sumptuous, by father's plan. Yadubara: What about your, what about your family after you were married? Prabhupāda: I have got sons. They are still there in Calcutta. A sannyāsī does not require the history of his previous life. So summary I have already given. Yadubara: We wanted to include like this, some very brief history of your . . . that you were in some business, of your meeting with your Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: That is already explained in that *Īśopaniṣad* . Yadubara: Yes. Yes. So it is all right to include all these. Prabhupāda: 1922 I met my Guru Mahārāja and 1933 I was officially initiated. Then Guru Mahārāja passed away in 1936. And he asked me, fifteen days before his passing away that, "You preach in English language in the Western countries. That will be your good, and the person amongst whom you preach, they will be also benefited." This was his last instructions to me. Yadubara: That was fifteen days before . . . Prabhupāda: Fifteen days before his passing away. He passed away in 1936, December 30th, and that letter was written 13th December, 1936. Yadubara: Didn't he say something right away, after he met you personally? *Prabhupāda: Yes. He said that Caitanya . . . I argued with him so many times. At that time I was Congress man, non*-cooperated. I gave up my education. But I was appointed manager. I stopped my education 1920, and then '21 I was appointed manager in Bose's laboratory. Then 1923 I resigned that post. I was appointed their agent, Northern India. Then my business flourished like anything. I started my own laboratory in Lucknow, in Vārāṇasī, in Allahabad. So that was very successful business. Everyone knew me in the chemical business. Then in 1933 I was initiated. In this way, gradually I came in contact intimately. And Guru Mahārāja . . . in 1935, all my Godbrothers were meeting in Bombay. So I was living outside the maṭha . So they requested, "Abhay Babu is such a noble soul. Why he should live outside the maṭha ?" Purposely I was living outside. I had my business office. I was living with my four children; family was in Calcutta. So Guru Mahārāja said: "It is better to live a little outside, and he will do the necessity automatically in due course of time." He said like that. So I could not understand what he meant by that. But it means that he was confident that, "This boy in due course of time will take up this matter seriously." He said these very words, "In due course of time he will take things rightly. And it is better now to live little apart from . . ." (laughs) He said like that. Haṁsadūta: He had some premonition. *Prabhupāda: Then in 1936 he passed away, and he left his letter, "You do this." So I was thinking, "What shall I do?" Of course, I took up this missionary idea as soon as I saw him in 1922, because we were trained up to some extent by our family tradition. So one of my friend took me to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922. So at that time I could understand that "Here is a person who is actually doing the missionary activities of Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Because we were Vaiṣṇava family. My father was Vaiṣṇava, my grandfather was Vaiṣṇava, my . . . we were all worshiper of Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya by family tradition. So at that time I could understand that, "Here is a saintly person who is trying very nicely." So he asked me to join immediately. But at that time, I was family man. In 1921 my first child was born. I was married in 1918, during student time. I was at that time third*-year student. So I was thinking, "How to do? How to do?" So in 1944, I started this Back to Godhead . Haṁsadūta: From Allahabad? Prabhupāda: No, from Calcutta. Haṁsadūta: From Calcutta. Prabhupāda: So I was practically distributing. I was spending, in those days, 300 rupees, 400 rupees. Was a large amount, but I was spending somehow or other from my business, and practically it was being distributed. You have seen some of the copies? Haṁsadūta: I saw some of the old copies. Yes. Prabhupāda: So in this way, gradually things changed. I wanted to become a very big businessman and earn money and spend for this missionary work, but that was not very successful. (laughs) So in 1950, I retired practically. Not retired, but little in touch with business, whatever is going on, going on. Then 1954 I gave up connection with my family. I went to Jhansi. There I got a very big building. So I wanted to started the missionary activities under the name of The League of Devotees. Haṁsadūta: I saw your prospectus, an old prospectus. Prabhupāda: Yes, it was registered. So that was a very nice building. Somebody gave me. Then the governor of the province, that Munshi, K. Munshi, his wife had an association of the women; she wanted that house. So the governing . . . government circle, they began to press me to leave that house through the proprietor. So I was sticking. All my friends, they said that, "You don't go away. We shall help you." Then I thought that "They are government circles. They will . . . if they give pressure, how can I fight with them?" *And that was not a very nice place, Jhansi, although the building was first class. That building is still there. Then I thought that instead of fighting with them, let me go to Vṛndāvana, then we shall see. So I too went to Vṛndāvana. And then in 1956 . . . no, I left '54. In '56 I was living with my Godbrothers. Then I started again. In the meantime, for some years, two, three years, the Back to Godhead was stopped. Then I started again in Delhi. You have seen my Delhi Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple? Yadubara: I went to one place that you stayed at . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: . . . near . . . Prabhupāda: Jama Masjid. Yadubara: Something, yes. *Prabhupāda: So I was staying in Vṛndāvana in a very nice place. Then these Rādhā*-Damodara temple men, they call me that, "Why don't you come, live here? We give you two rooms. You just repair and live here. Whatever you like, you can do." So I thought, "It is Jīva Gosvāmī's place"; *otherwise living in a very big palace, Keśī Ghat, for seven years. Then I came to Rādhā*-Damodara temple. So I was writing Bhāgavatam , Back to Godhead , and printing in Delhi. In this way, when some books were prepared, then I came to America. Then after coming America, everything you know. (end) Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi Prabhupāda: But suppose you are different . . . Guest (1): But, but . . . Prabhupāda: He is Christian, she is Muhammadan, she is Buddhist. Secular government means government should give protection to the Hindu, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to the Buddhist. But it is the government's duty to see that nobody is cheating. Prabhupāda: Jaisa apne koi business kar rahe ho. Business kijiye, government license de deta hai. Par ap cheat kijiyega to criminal hai. (Just like you are doing business. You do your business, the government issues a license for that, but if you cheat, then it is a criminal activity.) Lady: Ha, bilkul. (Yes, definitely . . .) Man: Mai bhi aj bol raha tha exactly this thing ki Hindusthan me abhi nash ho raha hai. (I was also saying exactly the same thing today. Things are worsening in India now . . .) Prabhupāda: Ha. (Yes.) Man: Isi bat par ki koi sacchai nahi rahi hai, koi dharma nahi raha hai, sab me adultery hai, sab me aisi chavi, jo . . . (The reason is that there is no honesty, no religiosity, there is adultery everywhere. Everywhere the same picture . . .) Prabhupāda: Nah. Ha. Dekhiye, government ka duty hai . . . (Yes. See this is the duty of the government . . .) to see that people may not become cheated. Man: Ethical orientation hone ke ye sab jagah . . . (Because of wrong ethical orientation, all these things are happening.) Prabhupāda: Abhi, abhi samajh lijiye hum log ka Hindu ka, ab aur . . . (Now, just see for Hindus, any more . . .) Let me speak in English, so that he can follow. Guest (1): They don't follow Indian . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Jaisa koi . . . (Just like . . .) Take for example a man is presenting himself as brahmin , but he's doing something else. That should be stopped. You are doing the business of a śūdra , why you are claiming as brahmin ? This is government duty. Guest (1): Now see this person . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . is very touchy about his being śūdra? Prabhupāda: No, why he should be? Guest (1): No, but he thinks that all of us look down upon him. So one has to be very careful. And I think that if you could say something about the real harijana. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I'll speak. That I'll speak. Now, if he is coming from the śūdra community . . . Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . but he is now minister . . . Guest: He's a brahmin . Prabhupāda: Yes. Lady Guest: Not even brahmin . Prabhupāda: Not exactly, a brahmin yes. Lady Guest: Not a brahmin . Prabhupāda: But at least he's a kṣatriya . Guest (1): I mean, defense ministry. Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya , and that is the, that is the sanction of the śāstra . This is the statement by Nārada Muni. I shall quote the śāstra . Guest (1): Accha. (Okay.) *Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's . . . guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa , śauryaṁ tejaḥ , yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam , īśvara-bhāvaś ca (BG 18.43). These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta , if these qualities are found somewhere else . . . suppose a śūdra , a caṇḍāla , if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra . Guest (1): No. As Karṇa. Wasn't he born in a family of . . . *Prabhupāda: There are many instances, but this is the injunction of the śāstra . And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brahmin family or śūdra family—nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the M.D. examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brahmin ? Then I make my treatment with you." Nobody asks that. So this is the śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brahmanism , śūdra*-ism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture, spoiled. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: That should be the point. Now it is the duty of the secular government . . . now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa ," then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa . That is government's duty; that is secular state. Not that, "Let people go to hell. We don't care for them." That is not required. Guest (1): Yes, but if a brahmin is not behaving . . . Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brahmin , you must act as a brahmin . Lady Guest: Perform the duties of a brahmin . Guest (1): And actions and dharma and . . . Prabhupāda: That should be the platform. Guest (1): Because if a brahmin goes on drinking and abusing and . . . then he is not a brahmin . Prabhupāda: That is not brahmin . How can that be brahmin ? That is a śūdra , caṇḍāla . Then what is the difference between a . . . but they are claiming brahminism by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra . Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not allowed. Guest (1): It is by our actions and by thoughts . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Never says birth. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ , quality and karma . Guest (1): One thing more I can do here for all the devotees . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . sanskrit teaching in our books. Guest (1): Language also. Prabhupāda: Language doesn't matter. Suppose if I address your wife "mātā" or if I call "mother". It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: One has to understand that a lady should be respectfully called as mother. You call it mātā or mother, it doesn't matter. Yes, some rascals inquire from them that, "Do you know Sanskrit?" Where is the condition that unless one knows Sanskrit he cannot be a devotee? Where is that condition? Guest (1): In the same way you see the early Christians inquired, "Do you know Latin?" And that's why the whole of England, you see, revolted, and they said we will do only in English. Because by Latin . . . Prabhupāda: So one bābājī . . . (aside) I think that you were in Surat? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī that, "Learn Sanskrit, then you'll understand Bhagavad*-gītā ." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away. You go away from this place." Guest (1): Not at all. Prabhupāda: So he supposed . . . I went to preach in the Western country. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇava ? It is a training. It is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit? Otherwise you cannot become . . ." Guest (1): It is good to learn as many languages as you can, because . . . but if you're not, that doesn't matter anything. Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from the school, college, that's all. A Sanskrit scholar is different—he learns grammar for twelve years. Guest (1): A waste of time. A waste of time, a waste of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see? Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . Romanian Ambassador, and we went to a place, University of Yas. The great poet Eminescu, he's the greatest Romanian poet, and he studies Sanskrit and his poems reflect Vedānta and *Gītā* —I read him very well, and he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars. Guest (1): Max Mueller, for example. Prabhupāda: Max Mueller was not very big scholar, but at the present moment there are many actually scholars. Guest (1): And Lesnee, Professor Lesnee was another scholar in Bengali and Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: But that does not mean he knows the Vedic literature. Guest (1): No, but they were . . . they could . . . Prabhupāda: Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahudhā śrutena . . . (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.23). This is another verse. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Simply because you have got good brain substance, you'll be a devotee? It doesn't mean. Guest (1): No, no. Bhavana chahiye, bhavana . . . (Feelings must be there, feelings . . .) Prabhupāda: Bhāvana means it is, it is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa, then He gives the intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not a mechanical way. Guest (1): No. *Prabhupāda: It is not a mechanical way. Simply one has to be very serious and sincere, then you develop. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deva tathā gurau , tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśaḥ (ŚU 6.23). He becomes revealed. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). He is not revealed to everyone. It requires the qualification how to become a devotee, surrendered soul. Ab dekhiye na kal raat me ap . . . (indistinct) . . . mataji . . . (Just see, last night your . . . Mātājī . . .) your daughter, as soon as there was kīrtana , how she was dancing. Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: She is young girl. Guest (1): She is very devoted. Prabhupāda: She has the advanced devotion. Therefore . . . she is a young girl, she was not ashamed—so immediately she began to dance. Guest (1): She has always been like that. Prabhupāda: This is automatic. You see? So it is not a artificial thing. Guest (1): No, no, she feels it. That is her mission. And I don't want to interfere. Prabhupāda: No, I was very surprised how this nice girl . . . other girls, they are also dancing. So this dancing, I was explaining to him, that this dancing has no artificial. Guest (1): It is from heart. Prabhupāda: Ecstatic. Guest (1): She's ecstatic, yes. Otherwise nobody will get up at 3:30 in the morning. Prabhupāda: Lokavājya. Doesn't care that, "Here is my mother, here is my father, here is my . . ." No. Effortless. Guest (1): She doesn't care. She says today she is going to the park to make a temple. She has gone. I didn't prevent her . . . (indistinct) . . . she said she wants to be a devotee. Prabhupāda: So, she has got the tendency to become a perfect devotee. As a father and mother you should not hamper it. Guest (1): (laughs) I tell her that, too, you see. Prabhupāda: Because it is not easy to become a devotee. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: It is not easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). To become a devotee and surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām . And if she has developed, it is the duty . . . and śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). These things are there. So, if she has got the natural tendency you should give all possible help to her. This is the duty of the father. Guest (1): This is quite right. Prabhupāda: This is duty of the father. Guest (1): We give it at home, because we told her whatever she wanted to put things, mūrtis , other things, we have installed it. Prabhupāda: Yes, let her enjoy this devotional life. She has developed it. It is a fortune for you, because if one member of the family becomes a devotee of the Lord, he can deliver all the members. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Demon. (laughs) Prahlāda Mahārāja, when he was asked, "Take benediction, whatever you like," he said: "Sir, what benediction I shall take? I have seen the benediction of my father. He was so powerful, even the demigods trembled by his red eyes, and You finished it within a second. So what is the value of this benediction? Kindly engage me in Your service." Then Prahlāda Mahārāja, he did not ask anything for himself, but later on he asked Nṛsiṁha*-deva, "Sir, my Lord, one request I can make—my father was a great demon. He was against You, but still I pray that his liberation will be granted." Guest (1): Very nice of him. Very good of him. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lady Guest: To save his father. *Prabhupāda: So Nṛsiṁha*-deva replied: "So don't be worried about your father. Not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to fourteen generation, because a devotee like you, who is born in this family, fourteen generations they are liberated." This is the process. Best service. If your daughter can give best service to your family by becoming a devotee, she gives service to you, to your husband, to your husband's father, your father—that is the śāstric injunction. Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): What exactly is a devotee? Prabhupāda: Devotee means he does not know anything better than Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest (1): But suppose a man who is working in life with always that consciousness, is he . . . Prabhupāda: What is that consciousness? Guest (1): That he knows nothing but Kṛṣṇa, you see, and works in that . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That his action will prove. Simply by . . . Guest: No, by action. Just you say the brahmin must do by actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): So a devotee is also by actions he can do it? Prabhupāda: By symptoms. Guest (1): Symptoms. Prabhupāda: Just like your daughter, she is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Even she does not like to live with family because she does not find very congenial atmosphere. Guest: No, we ask all our friends, devotees around. *Prabhupāda: A devotee, as Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tādera caraṇa*-sevi-bhakta-sane vās (Nāma-saṅkīrtana 7). Bhakta-sane vās . You must live amongst the devotees. Guest (1): Bhakto ke pas reh rahe the. (Living with devotees.) Prabhupāda: In our Society he has come from America, he has come from Canada, I am from India, but we have forgotten all our family relations. We have nothing to do. We are in a different atmosphere. They can die for me, I can die for them, but we have no family relationship. He's coming from America, I'm from India, he's from Canada, he's from . . . (indistinct) . . . but the central point is Kṛṣṇa. You see? That is devotion. *Tādera caraṇa*-sevi-bhakta-sane vās . Bhakta-sane vās . Therefore we have made this Society, Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Society. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, let us live together. We are also living together in a house—we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this—but everything in the Society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business, if you become a member of the association, stock sell exchange, you can do better business. Guest (1): (laughs) But not all the time. *Prabhupāda: No, no. I say . . . not all the time, because it is material. This is material. They cannot do all the time because this is temporary. You can work as a stock exchange broker for a few hours, then it will be havoc. But it is not like that. If you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra twenty*-four hours, you'll never be worried. You'll never be tired. That is the difference between material and spiritual activities. Just like these boys, they are working day and night, voluntary. I do not pay them. They are all qualified. Suppose if one wanted to keep a servant like him, how much he will have to pay? They are doing for nothing. Rather, if I become angry, they become afraid. (laughs) Guest (1): But I also . . . no, no, I mean I . . . Prabhupāda: But you are also helping us. Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That I know, that I know. Therefore you have got such a nice daughter. Guest (1): You see, but I have only this thing, that I say it is my responsibility to look after the family also. Prabhupāda: It is the duty of everyone that this movement is so important that people are in the darkness of ignorance. They have become so rascal all over the world. It is not a particular country—all over the world. They do not know the value of life. They are living like cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating and dying. And we are giving the information what is the value of life. So every sane man take this movement very seriously. Guest (1): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All the leaders, they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die, and defend. What is this defense minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? But they have taken it very important. Guest (1): In some way even the cats and dogs are better, they defend better. Prabhupāda: Yes, without money, without soldiers, they have got nails. *Devotee: Cats and dogs have weapons built*-in. Guest (1): And no, moreover they don't . . . (indistinct) . . . they only want love and they are loyal, you see? Prabhupāda: So we are thinking, "Now we have got defense measure with atomic bomb, we are now advanced. But what is that advancement? That defensive method is there even cats and dogs. What you have done beyond this? But they have no brain. Everyone is spoiling life with these four principles of how to eat, how to sleep. Eating . . . Guest (1): Even they don't eat nicely. They eat rubbish. Prabhupāda: Actually they eat rubbish, but they think like that. It is a misguided civilization. Guest (1): Well, if I . . . (indistinct) . . . only day before yesterday at vegetarian hotel I got whole lunch. And whole day yesterday I was ill. So much . . . mirchi (. . . chili) they put, so much . . . masalas (. . . spices) they put. Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization. Guest (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men leading other blind men. This is going on. Guest (1): I have suggested, you have got this, ah . . . what do you call that flower? It's very fragrant . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . panju ? Guest (1): No, no, what you call that . . . (indistinct) . . . that flower came? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): That white flower, fragrant flower. It is called parajit? Devotee: Pārijāta . Guest (1): Pārijāta . Lady Guest: Pārijāta . Guest (1): Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this, you can have. Prabhupāda: No no, pārijāta plant is not here. It is not possible. Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: That is heavenly. Guest (1): We have got here, pārijāta . Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): They call it pārijāta . Prabhupāda: They call. (laughs) Guest (1): A very beautiful, fragrant flower. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is harsingar. Shiuli flower. (night jasmine) Guest (1): Oh, it is nice. Prabhupāda: It is nice. There are many nice flowers. Guest (1): You want some flower pots, I have got a lot of plants now, from the seeds. Tell somebody to come, I can give for the garden here. I have got marigolds, I have got phloxes. I think they will be very nice for the pūjā . You see? You can have tomorrow if you can get that. (break) Prabhupāda: So high for these poor people. Guest (1): Such a vicious circle. Higher the prices, higher the wages, higher the wages, higher the prices, with less production. If there are five loaves and people have ten rupees, they'll buy five loaves. And if they have twenty rupees also they'll buy five loaves because there are no ten loaves. Prabhupāda: No, no. This higher price is due to capitalism. They are holding stock. Guest (1): But it is not sufficient for all the people, population. Prabhupāda: No, if you pay, you get sufficient. Guest (1): And that means the stock is so limited. Lady Guest: . . . (indistinct) (others speaking in background) Prabhupāda: Not limited. The stock is held . . . black. If you pay black, then you get sufficient. Guest (1): You see what happens . . . suppose you see in a house there are four liters of milk, you see, and each one is given 100 rupees, you see, then they will buy, each one, let's say one liter. And if they are given 200 rupees, the one who has got 200 rupees, they get one liter also for 200 rupees, you see? So what is happening is people who have got black money, they want the things for themselves. There is a price there. So the price will go up. Prabhupāda: How they get black money unless there is black market? Guest (1): No, because stock being limited. Suppose a medicine is wanted, a man is willing to give anything to get the medicine. They make the money out of that. Prabhupāda: So far I have got experience, the stock is available if you pay black. Guest (1): Dekho last year drought ho gaya. Drought ho gayi to wheat ki utpat kam ho gayi. To wheat ki price chadh gayi. Look at last year's drought over there. (Just see, there was a drought last year. Due to the drought, wheat production was less. So the price of wheat increased.) Prabhupāda: To kiska pas wheat nahi raha. Wo black or white prices sabhi ko isi ki or . . . (Just tell me who was not having wheat. Those black or white prices make everybody come to this . . .) Guest (1): Nahi, par kam ho gayi bahut. (No, it was much less.) Quantity. Prabhupāda: Nahi kam. . . . (indistinct) . . . wahi jitna, wahi khaye . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, not reduced . . . (indistinct) . . . whatever quantity they eat . . . (indistinct) . . .) Guest (1): Twenty million tons was less. Two million tons was less. Prabhupāda: No, there are so many millions of . . . (indistinct) Lady Guest: Adhe se zyada to chuha aur kira kha jata hai godown me. (More than half of the quantity gets eaten by rats and insects in the godown.) Guest (1): You see, greater productions is one of the keys to lower prices. Prabhupāda: Ye to pehle bhi . . . (Previously also . . .) this is the . . . this was the businessman's tricks. When there is new harvest they purchase and keep it and they keep the stock. Lady Guest: Store it. Prabhupāda: And when the price is high, they sell it. Now the same process suppose, if I want to hold stock, say 100 tons of rice, so I have no money, if I have got 25% price the bank will advance me 75%, so I hold the stock. Guest (1): Now it is an offense to hold the stock. Prabhupāda: But that is going on in black. Guest (1): Therefore that should be stopped. Prabhupāda: So how you can stop? Guest (1): By better consciousness, where truth is good. Prabhupāda: Ah! That requires Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Prabhupāda: Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Ultimately everything. Prabhupāda: Unless you become a devotee. Guest (1): Quite right. *Prabhupāda: Therefore śāstra says, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Guest (1): Quite right. *Prabhupāda: Those who are non*-devotee, they cannot have any good quality. Guest (1): Quite true. You see therefore unless you have more production and good quality people . . . Prabhupāda: Production . . . if we like, if we cooperate . . . just like United Nation. We can produce twenty times production that is required. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: So much land. Guest (1): Quite right. Prabhupāda: In America, Australia, I have seen. Guest (1): Seeing is right, but so little water. You know what, to put plastic sheets to collect water. Prabhupāda: There cannot be any scarcity of food. That we are convinced. Guest (1): Yes, if we work hard. Prabhupāda: Not work hard, everyone should produce. But who is producing? Suppose in Delhi, such a big city. What is the population? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the population, Delhi? Guest (1): About, ah, four million. Prabhupāda: Four million. And what is the population of Bombay? Guest (1): About six and a half million, seven million. Prabhupāda: Seven million. And what is the Calcutta? Guest (1): About seven and a half million. Prabhupāda: And in this way if you take . . . and what is the population of India? Guest: Five, ah, nearly six hundred million now, it would be. Prabhupāda: Six hundred million. *Guest (1): Five*-fifty, five . . . six hundred million. Prabhupāda: So if you take all these city population it will come to three hundred million. They are doing nothing for producing. Guest (1): No, they are producing cotton textiles. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot eat . . . (indistinct) Lady Guest: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can produce bolt and nut and this, but you cannot eat. So this is going on. Formerly, everyone was in village. Formerly. Everyone was interested to produce food. Everyone had got land. Even the brahmins they were not working. The śūdras would work, and they produce half and half, sale. Then government tax only 25%. Guest (1): Hmm. Prabhupāda: That would cover everything—shelters, income tax, this tax, that tax also. But if you have not produced anything, there is no tax. This was the system. Everyone was happy. Here, one side there is no production, there is scarcity; another side, government taxes 89, 95%. *Guest (1): Ninety*-seven percent. Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense? *Guest (1): Ninety*-three percent. Prabhupāda: And everyone is doing everything, whatever he likes. Guest (1): In black. No trade is going on. We are under the counter, they are over the counter. Prabhupāda: If I just now cut your throat, the police will come, arrest me, note down, and the judgment will be given when all your family members will no longer . . . Guest (1): The judgment won't be given, the police will take money and . . . Prabhupāda: That's all. Lady Guest: Everything will be over. Guest (1): It was never a murder taking place at all. Prabhupāda: This is the position. Everything is vitiated. Therefore most important thing is people should come to his consciousness, real consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Character. Character. Prabhupāda: Yes. Character. Guest (1): Yes, what we say . . . adharma bahut ho gaya. Adharma. (There is too much irreligion. Irreligion.) Prabhupāda: Bhagavan ko manta hi nahi. Bhagavan kya chiz hai, ye janta hi nahi. Nirakar ho gaya Bhagavan. Unka akar hai. (No one believes in God. They don't even know what God is. God has become formless. He has a form . . .) Lady: Bhagavan ko bhi janta hai to paise ke liye. Paise milne Bhagavan, to adha de dega. (Even if they accept God, that's only for money. "Oh God, let me have money." Then he will give half of it.) Prabhupāda: Paise ke liye bhi Bhagavan ka pas jo jata hai, wo bhi accha hai. Jo ekdum manta nahi, ki Bhagavan hai hi nahi, nirakar, wo to maha atheist ho gaya. Jo dukh ke liye, ki paise ke liye hi . . . yehi to Bhagavan Gita me bola hai na arto artharthi. Arto, dukhi hai, wo agar punyavan hai to Bhagavan se prarthana karega, " Bhagavan, mai bahut dukhi hu. Humko thodi kripa . . . (indistinct)." Ye dosh nahi hai. Bhagavan ka pas gaya na, Bhagavan ko mana na, itna hi unka guna hai. Aur ye atheist hai, " Arre, ye Bhagavan vagavan kyu karte ho?" Humara Pandit Nehruji jaisa tha," Tumko rupaya chahiye to mandir jake kyu prarthana karte ho? Kaam karo, paise tumko milega." Ye bhi thik hai. Par ye log udhar hi reh jata hai, jo Bhagavan humko paise do, kaam karne ko kuch nahi. Kaam bhi karo aur Bhagavan se prarthana karo. Ye hona chahiye. (Even if someone goes to God for money, that is good. But those who don't believe in God, there is no God, formless, then he is an abominable atheist. One who goes to God for mitigating his misery or for money . . . this is what God says in Gita ārto arthārthī . Ārta , one who is in misery . . . if he is pious then he will definitely pray to God, "Oh God. I am suffering badly, kindly show some mercy upon me." This is not bad. After all, he is approaching God, he has accepted God, this is his greatest merit. And these atheists say: "Why are you calling out to God?" Like our Pandit Nehru said: "If you need money then why are you going to the temple to pray? Just do your job and you will get money." This is also okay. But these people remain there only, "Oh God give us money, we don't want to work at all." You do your job and at the same time pray to God—this should be the process.) Man: Aur prarthana karo to paise acche kaam me lagaye . . . (And if you pray then utilize the money in good activities) . . . (cut) (end) Conversation A -- November 5, 1973, Delhi *Prabhupāda: Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca. She's both. (laughter) Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, "Never trust woman and politician," and she's both. (laughs) Gurudāsa: But she's actually better at telling a lie than the other people. She's very clever. Prabhupāda: They will have to come to this point gradually. They're disappointed. Life is not very pleasing. Politics life is not . . . even Gandhi, such an exalted man, on the day he was killed, he was the same. (break) . . . he said. He actually prayed to God, "My death may come," because he was so much disappointed. Thousands of complaints, thousands of demands, thousands of varieties. The politician . . . (indistinct) . . . and everyone has to be satisfied. And if he's not satisfied, he'll plan something else. Nowadays political position is very . . . the same example: uṣṭra, uṣṭra , a camel. Camel is eating his own blood, and still he is thinking, "I am very happy." So this . . . everyone in this material world, especially the politician, they're eating their own blood, but for the position they're thinking, "Oh, I am so happy." Gurudāsa: Yesterday she rode to work in a horse cart. Prabhupāda: Ah? Gurudāsa: Yesterday, the prime minister rode to work in a horse cart to demonstrate that she would not utilize petrol due to the high price of gas. Prabhupāda: So where to get the horses? Gurudāsa: (laughs) Someone said that, that "How you will feed the horses, 'cause you can't get wheat?" Prabhupāda: All their plans have failed. You see? This is the . . . Nanda was one of the planning commission. This rascal is now rejected. Now he is observed by the C.I.D man. When government has ordered the . . . (indistinct) . . . so one friend in Benares, he was anarchist—at least his brother was—and his brother was hanged. So naturally his family was observed by police department. I was guest in his house. At Benares, when walking I saw that man is coming, "Oh, what is this man who is coming here?" "Oh, he's my bodyguard," he said. And "What is this bodyguard?" He said the whole story, foolish . . . (indistinct) . . . so when I went to the station, the policeman. And the policeman, when I got in train, police were advised another policeman. I thought, "He is coming with me also?" (laughs) Then when I came to Allahabad station I did not see anybody else. They didn't . . . (break) What other, what he has written? Gurudāsa: Memo to all presidents . . . (break) Guest: Like I was saying, though, he never . . . I wouldn't . . . I couldn't put a name on the philosophy, but he would give his teachings, you know? It wasn't so strict, you know. It wasn't as organized a program as here. He would say . . . he would more often give . . . Prabhupāda: What . . . was he worshiping any deity? Guest: Hanumān. He said that, you know, you should, erm, you should serve the humanity. Prabhupāda: Uh? Guest: Serve humanity, feed . . . Prabhupāda: That is the general proposition everywhere. *Guest: Right. It was nothing special. I couldn't . . . I wouldn't know what to tell you. He was not a philosophic . . . he was not philosophically*-oriented, you know. He was more, he was . . . well, as we know now, it was just towards the end of his life, you know. He was . . . Prabhupāda: Approved line? Guest: He never talked about his guru , about his line of succession. He never told us who his guru was. Or he wouldn't talk about his early life either. The reason I stayed with him so long was because he gave me more love, you know, than I'd ever experienced before. He was just nicer to me than anyone else had ever been. He was . . . Prabhupāda: No, he was a good man, there is no doubt. Guest: Yes, he was a very good man. I wouldn't really know what to say, you know—he's a saint or a guru or . . . Prabhupāda: Now what is the situation of the āśrama ? Guest: Well, I found out the āśrama is run by . . . there's trustees. There's one man in Lucknow who I've never met, who's the head of the trustees. Then there are businessmen . . . Prabhupāda: What is the activities? Guest: The activity is minimal, you know. They, erm . . . now that he's gone away, the presence of the Westerners even is discouraged in the temple. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: We go in for darśana of the samādhi , and his takht is there on which he used to sit. But the people in the āśrama now, you know, they want you to leave as soon as possible. They don't feed us anymore there. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guest: We don't get food or chai anymore now that Bala's gone. Prabhupāda: They want you to go away? Guest: They don't allow any Westerners now to stay in that āśrama . And there's so many rooms, thirty or forty beautiful rooms, like some of the nicest in Vṛndāvana. Gurudāsa: That Goenka dharmaśālā ? Guest: That we can stay in, but I mean in the āśrama itself, which is in the back of the Hanumān temple. I was . . . in fact I was the only one allowed to even stay in the Goenka dharmaśālā , because I happened to know Mr. Goenka, you know. That was just a chance thing, though, you know. Prabhupāda: Where is Goenka? Gurudāsa: You know Mr. Goenka from Pak . . . (break) *Guest: It's got the original Sanskrit, word-for-word meaning, literal translation, but the purport isn't anything like . . . no*-one else's . . . (indistinct background voices) Thank you. Hare Krsna. Prabhupāda: What is that letter? Gurudāsa: A letter to Mukunda inviting him to stay in London temple. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are going to London? Guest: Tonight. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) (Prabhupāda is being massaged) Gurudāsa: . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara? He is not chanting? Gurudāsa: He is chanting nothing. (laughing) Devotee (2): He's watching . . . (laughing) Prabhupāda: Something I can give him to eat? . . . (indistinct) . . . so that boy, I used to say, "Can I put something in your belly?" (laughs) Immediately . . . (indistinct) Śrutakīrti: In Los Angeles it was nice—we were giving the cookies out after lectures. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation -- November 6, 1973, Delhi Prabhupāda: Western side it should be less. Now in America it is early in the morning. Śyāmasundara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Half*-past four. Eleven hours' difference. In Los Angeles. Śyāmasundara: Eleven to Los Angeles? It is five to London, four and a half to five. From London to Los Angeles, it is . . . Prabhupāda: Six hours. Śyāmasundara: I think it is eight. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Śyāmasundara: It is five to New York from London. Prabhupāda: And three hours. Śyāmasundara: Three more. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have seen my watch there, that Karāndhara has purchased? Śyāmasundara: I heard four different watches are there, four clocks. It's an international clock. Brahmānanda: International clock, time zone clock. *Śyāmasundara: Twenty*-four . . . Brahmānanda: It will give you the exact time in any one of the time zones in the world. There is a map, and you dial. Prabhupāda: Latitude, according to latitude. All the cities at the same time. Brahmānanda: It is a computer clock. Prabhupāda: You can simply lower the button and you get time all over the world. Brahmānanda: A.m. or p.m. Prabhupāda: Two hundred and twenty dollars. Śyāmasundara: Two hundred and fifty dollars. Devotee (2): Does it give the temperature also? Prabhupāda: No. His name is there, the blind is there. Śyāmasundara: You dial it. Prabhupāda: The time is light. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . time. Brahmānanda: And when it changes, it gives a click. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: When it changes, the minute changes, there's a little click. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Do you still have that watch I got you once, that computer watch? Brahmānanda: Well, he has . . . Prabhupāda: Broke it. (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . pressing it too much. Brahmānanda: In order to change the time. Devotees: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That broke it. Devotee: Broke. Śyāmasundara: Is it fixed yet? Devotee: Oh, yes, it is fixed now. Devotee (2): It cost about twenty dollars. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): It costs twenty dollars, I think, to have it fixed. But now it's working. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda spoke to collaborate the computer watch and the computer on his desk. So both are exactly the same. Devotee (2): Every day, every year be the same. Śyāmasundara: Doesn't change. Supposed to be . . . Prabhupāda: I was talking in London. I was giving time to someone. Śyāmasundara: Someone was calling you from Los Angeles? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda would dial and say: "Oh, call Śyāmasundara. What time is it?" So he would dial the time, and it was five o'clock in the morning. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) That's good. Specially for . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . calls. Those who are internationally collect, for them that's important. Brahmānanda: Someone has just lent me this. Prabhupāda: What it is? Brahmānanda: (loud buzzing sound) Alarm watch, to remind me to go to kīrtana . (loud buzzing sound) Prabhupāda: Made in? Brahmānanda: Switzerland. Prabhupāda: They are making wonderful achievement in the material world. That is no doubt. Not very much. We are under Lord Kṛṣṇa's side, when you stop death, otherwise it is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Kṛṣṇa's movement. We are understood in the beginning, where you can stop death. That is not . . . Śyāmasundara: There is one scientist now who has discovered in the old people's bodies a certain hormone, or chemical, and his theory is that if he can find out the source of that chemical and stop it, that we can live for ever. We can live for a long time. Prabhupāda: They will never find it. (laughter) No. The yogic process is the same—they keep the hormone fresh. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: That is the way. If you keep the hormone fresh, then you can . . . so long it is fresh, you cannot die. Śyāmasundara: Ah. Prabhupāda: He'll have to die. Just like the bank balance, you have got one thousand dollars. You don't spend—the money is there. So yogic process is like that. That samādhi . . . it becomes samādhi , no breathing. That means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing duration, and if you don't spend it, then you can live. That is yogic process: breathing control. They don't breathe. Suppose I am breathing ten thousand times daily. So if I don't breathe, that ten thousand rupees is in my stock as bank balance. Śyāmasundara: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: This is the point. But you cannot be immortal. Devotee: I'm . . .? Prabhupāda: The balance, it expend . . . what is called? Brahmānanda: Expendable? Devotee: Expendable. Prabhupāda: Yes. But you don't expend—so much gain. Not that you can increase. Bank balance, you have got one thousand dollars. If you don't spend, it is always one thousand dollars. Brahmānanda: What about interest? No interest? Śyāmasundara: No interest. Brahmānanda: No interest. Prabhupāda: No interest. Checking account there is no interest. (laughter) Śyāmasundara: Swiss account. Prabhupāda: No interest. Not obligatory. (laughter) When it is bank book account, then it is . . . Devotee: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Brahmānanda: Automatic. Prabhupāda: So the yogic process is like that. But that is not the process of check, stopping death. You can delay death. That you can delay, so it's a hundred years, two hundred years, five hundred years, or even more than that. You can delay, but it is not that stoppage. Śyāmasundara: But you have to spend something. Your heart has to beat. Prabhupāda: No. Samādhi , I think heart goes on, breathing stops. Devotee: Hmm. Śyāmasundara: How does . . . how does the skin stay alive, everything keeping from corruption? Prabhupāda: Well, the breathing . . . just like in the tree there is no breathing, but that does not mean they are dead. Breathing is not death. This is their nonsense science, "Stoppage of breathing is death." At least in . . . no. The heart beating is also stopped. Śyāmasundara: Hmm. Prabhupāda: He breathes very slow, almost like stopped, but he breathes. (end) Conversation -- November 10, 1973, Delhi ( bhajana with harmonium) Prabhupāda: You follow. ( bhajana continues with new tune) (break) (Prabhupāda leads bhajana , with devotees responding) Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) This tune I don't . . .? Ha? Brahmānanda, do you know it? Brahmānanda: This tune? No. Devotee: You did it in London. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: In London you did also, I think. Prabhupāda: No, I think I did it in Los Angeles? Eh? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Los Angeles, when I was in . . . (indistinct) . . . in Los Angeles there is a . . . (indistinct) Brahmānanda: (indistinct) . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. In front of a school. At that time Puruṣottama was. Puruṣottama and Kārtikeya and Sudāmā, and there was competition to collect flowers in the morning, early in the morning. So Sudāmā took first, and Puruṣottama second and Kārtikeya third. (laughter) Kārtikeya would collect so much and Puruṣottama so much. And Sudāmā . . . (laughter) There was regular competition for collecting flowers in the morning. Devotee: In the neighborhood? Prabhupāda: Yes. Collecting means stealing. (laughter) Stealing for Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Sudāmā was telling me that he had unfair, because they got to go first, so they got all the closest flowers, and he had to go far away to find his flowers. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He still he collected more. All rose and . . . Brahmānanda: Gardenia. Prabhupāda: Gardenia. No, there was little others, but mostly roses and gardenias. Here we cannot; neither there is any flowers in front of any house. So your country is in so many ways benedicted. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and you are perfect. You'll be demigods on this planet. Push this movement. Here in India so much scarcity. It's a curse. Scarcity means it is curse. So after my coming, was there any program? No. In the paṇḍāl ? You were there? Devotee: After you left. Devotee (2): We were in the program after Prabhupada left. And then at nine o'clock there was prasādam . *Prabhupāda: No question*-answer? Devotee: Individually there were questions. There were not so many people after . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: There were not so many people after everything was over. (break) Prabhupāda: (laughter) Crossing three oceans and seven seas and thirteen rivers, then come to this island. Unless one is very Columbus, serious, he will not come. So we say in Bengali, saat samudra tero nadi , seven seas and thirteen rivers, after crossing. People cannot come with their car also, that is another thing. Gentleman will come, and you will have to leave your car three miles away. That is another thing. Only the most interested persons are coming. Therefore you will see, they are all . . . they are interested persons. It is better to select the most interested. Devotee: Next time we will have it at Palam Airport. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Next time we will have it further away, so we can get the most interested. Prabhupāda: So then nobody will come. (laughter) They say that, "Your intelligence is so big that it cannot be captured." And somebody says: "Your intelligence is so subtle, it may be said that you have no intelligence." (laughter) So one man's intelligence cannot be captured; another man has no intelligence. Eh? "Your intelligence is so fine that it may be said that there is no intelligence," and "Your intelligence is so big that it cannot be captured." So both ways it proves no intelligence. Another story is that one boy, he appeared in his examination. His father asked, "How did you reply to your examination paper?" "Yes, quite nice." Then he said: "How?" "So there were very difficult questions that I could not answer, and there were easier questions, they are known to me; I did not answer." (laughter) "They are known to me. What is the use of answering? The difficult questions I could not answer, and the easier, that I know, there is no use of answering." That means he did not do anything. *So Rukmiṇī*-devī, how you are? You have learned something, doll-making? Rukmiṇī dāsī: I'm trying. Prabhupāda: Still trying? *Rukmiṇī dāsī: I am making Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . . baradrāj, ṣaḍ-bhūja , Ādi-deva. *Prabhupāda: Ṣaḍ*-bhūja . . . no, simply you have to learn the art, how to do it. Then you can make any number of bhūjas—ṣaḍ-bhūja , ten- bhuja , just (laughter) you have to learn how to make the straw . . . what is called? Devotee: Body. Prabhupāda: Straw body. You have learned that, how to do it? Rukmiṇī dāsī: We are learning. Devotee: That is the main problem. Prabhupāda: That is the main thing, yes. Structure. Then you can . . . any artist can, I mean, do the covering, the art. But these people, they know; *within half an hour they make one body, straw body. In Calcutta there is a place, Kumartuli, simply they are doll*-makers. So during . . . there are so many pūjās , Sarasvatī-pūjā, Kalki-pūjā, Kālī-pūjā. So each man will make ten deities, twenty deities, daily. Devotee: That is small? Prabhupāda: Eh? Not very small, say two feet high. Devotee: Where is this in Calcutta? *Prabhupāda: Calcutta it is called Kumartuli. Kumartuli means "Potters' quarters." They are all potters. That was the benefit of caste system. A class, they are simply engaged in pottery, family*-wise, all—small children, wife, husband, everyone. They know. Similarly goldsmith, blacksmith, carpenter, all these artisans classified, and by generation they know everything. Weaver. So there are no competition, and because they do it family-wise, their charges are not very much. They are satisfied, any little amount they get. That was the Indian civilization. Brāhmaṇa is satisfied. *All other workers, they are satisfied with what they get. Vaiśya, agriculture, whatever he is producing, that's all right. The balance time they would save for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This was the basic principle, and these rascal leaders, they thought that they are not energetic—inertia. Give them wine, give them meat, they will be enthusiastic. That is the present policy. Simple life. Now they have changed—very complicated, complex life, industrial life, ugra*-karmā. Ugra-karmā , that is described in the sixteenth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā . Find out that. Pradyumna: Find what? Prabhupāda: Sixteenth chapter, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca vidur āsurāḥ janā ( BG 16.7). Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca vidur āsurāḥ janā. Pradyumna: (reads) "Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." Prabhupāda: Then? Next verse. Pradyumna: (reads) "They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust." Prabhupāda: Then? Go on. Pradyumna: (reads) *Prabhupāda: Ugra*-karmā, ugra-karmā . Go on. Pradyumna: . . . kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ (BG 16.9). Prabhupāda: kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ Pradyumna: (reads) "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." Prabhupāda: Purport. Pradyumna: (reads) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing . . ." Prabhupāda: This has been proved true by the last two world wars—destruction. Twice Europe, whole Europe became destroyed. Is it not? Germany especially. Russia also. Devotee (3): I was there in Poland after the war, in Europe. But everything, practically all of Warsaw was practically was completely destroyed. All the people were living in ruins. *Prabhupāda: Yes, jagato 'hitāḥ. Kṣayāya , this ugra*-karmā . The industry is ugra-karmā . It is not simple. Industrial enterprise is ugra-karmā. Just like this room, big, big crucible. You have seen? How you have seen? Rukmiṇī dāsī: The crucible is like a . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Iron, other metals, especially iron, melted, and that is molded. If somehow or other it slips, all men will be killed immediately. Such a big crucible. It is carried by railway, then it is lifted, then gradually poured in the mold. Then it goes to make big, big beams and all this. Ugra*-karmā. They require big, big beams for the skyscraper building. Ha? Do they not require, big, big beams? The skyscraper buildings fitting those big, big beams, the American Indians are engaged? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: The Americans cannot do it. They do not take so much risk. They have had some accidents also? Devotee: The Mohawk Indians. Prabhupāda: Yes? Devotee: One tribe, the Mohawk . . . Prabhupāda: Mohawk. Devotee: . . . especially for heights, because they are from mountains, so they were employed on top of bridges and buildings. Devotee (2): They're not scared of looking down. It is so far high that the Indians are not scared to be so high. *Prabhupāda: If I am put there, immediately I will fall. Yes. It is gravity. No inexpert man can do that. Ugra*-karmā. If you can live on the ground, little production milk and grains . . . ugra-karmā, kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ (BG 16.9). If we say that this is ugra-karmā , they will say: "Oh, you want to go to the primitive world." Primitive world means there was no improvement. (pause) What people are remarking about our festival? Did you hear, overhear anything? No. Devotee: Many people are coming; they are impressed with our activities. They especially come because they are impressed. They have been to some of our previous programs. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: They have attended some of our previous programs. Prabhupāda: Yes, previously they were so enthusiastic. They wanted to continue, requested me to continue, and the LC manager said: "Yes, I will give extension." Do you know that? But you stopped. We could have continued, they were very much pleased. Hansaraj was sorry that . . . he remarked that. Devotee: In his talk. Prabhupāda: Never mind. Whatever Kṛṣṇa desires, that's all right. But number of people was greater than yesterday. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: It may increase. Devotee: Every day was very glorious. The sankīrtan parties distributed many books. Brahmānanda: The Mauritius High Commissioner said that he was lifted tonight. He felt lifted up by attending. He said: "Oh, this has given me a lift." I told him because it is the meaning of life, that we are doing so many things without knowing meaning. So when we actually know the meaning . . . Prabhupāda: Nobody knows what is the aim of life. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā . My Guru Mahārāja used to say bokāran . Bokā you know? It is Indian word, bokā. Bokā means foolish. Such important life they are wasting like animals. So, Anita, how you are feeling. Ha? What your father says? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ha? Mātājī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You do not like to stay there? (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why? Just go and sleep on the lap of your mother. Ha? Your mother is angry? Mātājī: No. Prabhupāda: She is not. Father? Mātājī: No. Brahmānanda: He telephoned. Prabhupāda: Ha? Brahmānanda: He telephoned me today. Prabhupāda: Hm. Why? He said . . . (indistinct) . . .? Brahmānanda: He said that he is sorry he did not bring the car, and that he wanted to come to the program; he would try to come. Prabhupāda: Hm. The father, mother, both should be . . . they are blessed, because their devotee's child. So they are feeling . . . Devotee: You have stolen us. Prabhupāda: Ha? Devotee: You have stolen us from all of our parents. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, your mother said. Brahmānanda: Yes. She has given two sons to you. Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked her, "Give us some contribution." "I have given two, my two sons!" (devotees laugh) And "That's all right. Don't be . . . (indistinct) . . ." She was coming in that time, so I asked her, that "Give us some contribution Mrs. . . . (indistinct) . . ." "So I have given you my two sons!" Why give father and mother? They are so much feeling obliged. Our Acutyananda's mother would also come. Devotee: Oh, yes. She came regularly. Prabhupāda: And that Trayādīśa, his mother. No, our Mr. Pellan, he is also happy, at least. Every sober father and mother will be happy. What your father says? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He always asks, "Where is Prabhupāda?" Prabhupāda: He is not happy? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes. He always asks: "Where is Prabhupāda?" Prabhupāda: Accha . Her father came to me at marriage. I called him. Her father is a big businessman. What business is your father in? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Textiles. Prabhupāda: He has got mill? Rukmiṇī dāsī: No, he has two shops in the suburbs. Prabhupāda: Oh. Seller. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: How many children he has got? Rukmiṇī dāsī: One brother and one sister. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what is the condition of your brother? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is a scholar. Prabhupāda: A what? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is younger than me, but he was becoming a scholar. Prabhupāda: He has passed M.A.? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has passed his master's? Rukmiṇī dāsī: No, no, he is young. He is taking four years of high school in three years. Prabhupāda: What is the age? Rukmiṇī dāsī: He is, umm, he is seventeen. Prabhupāda: Much younger. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he likes you, your brother? Mother? The mother also came, I think. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yes . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kṛṣṇa, be happy. If anyone gets Kṛṣṇa, then he doesn't want any more anything. Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Dhruva Mahārāja did penance. So Viṣṇu, "Take benediction. You've undergone so much austerity. Whatever you want, you can take it from Me." Svāmin kṛtārtho'smi varaṁ na yāce. He went for tapasya for getting kingdom, but when he was offered the benediction, he says that, "I don't want anything," kṛtārtho'smi . "I am so much obliged and satisfied. I don't want it." "I was searching after some pieces of broken glasses; *now I have got diamonds." Kācaṁ vicinvann api divya*-ratnaṁ. "Then where is my demand any more? I went searching after broken pieces of glass, and now I have got diamonds." So where is the case for asking him? Kṛtārtho : "I am fully satisfied; I don't want." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One is fully satisfied with Kṛṣṇa, then he . . . sit down anywhere, any place, full of thought of Kṛṣṇa—no more worries. That is gopīs' perfection. They don't want. Even Kṛṣṇa is not with them, the thought of Kṛṣṇa is there, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is now in the forest. He is walking on the ground full of pebbles on His soft soles of His feet," and they are in anxiety. So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even Kṛṣṇa is not present, thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That is their perfection. gopīs, they are the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and out of the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī, the topmost gopī , who has purchased Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is purchased by Rādhārāṇī. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, to understand what assets He has got, that Rādhārāṇī is pleased so much, therefore He took the . . . what is called, mode of Rādhārāṇī to understand Himself. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is the ecstasy of Rādhārāṇī feeling separation from Kṛṣṇa. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa left Vṛndāvana for Mathurā, and then all the gopīs and Rādhārāṇī, they are feeling separation. That is the mode of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, how they were feeling separation from Kṛṣṇa. So Rukmiṇī devi, you are feeling like that? Like the gopīs? Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first stage. Govinda*-viraheṇa me . What is that verse? Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yugāyitaṁ . . . Prabhupāda: Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. Nimiṣa . The . . . what is called? Devotee: Blinking. Prabhupāda: Blinking, the blinking of the eyes. That is called nimiṣa . It is called nimiṣa . This time is called nimiṣa . So that nimiṣa is twelve years—so long. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. And cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam , tears coming down, torrents of rain. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ : whole world vacant; *govinda*-viraheṇa me , being separated from Govinda. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . (break) . . . grahaṇe bhaviṣyate. What is that verse? (break) . . . sidhardaya . Ha? Rukmiṇī dāsī: I don't know. Prabhupāda: (break) Devotee: . . . very satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . sixteen times thirty*-five, with four hundred and eighty. That comparison we get. We started with one hundred and twenty. (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Arrival -- January 29, 1974, Tokyo Prabhupāda: The government export, then import . . . karne to deta nahi (. . . is not allowed.) Indian Man: Kidhar? (Where?) Prabhupāda: India me. (To India.) Indian Man: Nahi, India me nahi. Europe me. (No, not to India. They give permission for Europe.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Indian Man: Europe. Middle East. Prabhupāda: Yaha se purchase karte hai . . . Europe me apka office hai. (After purchasing from here . . . do you have an office in Europe?) Indian Man: Nahi. Client hai. (No. I have clients over there.) Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Next have sankirtan . *Have kīrtana . ( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) (Japanese translation throughout) The child is responsive. The child is responsive. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He was seeing this playing of mṛdaṅga . How old? Devotee: He's five months, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Five months. So these Japanese boys, they cannot understand English? *Devotee: No, but if you would like to say something, either Mahā*-guṇa or Vana can translate. They would like to hear you speak. *Prabhupāda: (devotee translating into Japanese throughout) When I was coming to this temple, I saw Japanese people are very industrious. Industrialism means, karma , and karma means, to work hard for the comfort of this body, but we are not this body, we are spirit soul within this body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). The real owner of the body is within this. So, so long our mind will be absorbed in the bodily concept of life, we have to accept another body after death. And to accept another body means great trouble. Just like this child, when he was within the womb of the mother for ten months, packed up . . . of course, by nature's arrangement one can live, but actually it is very troublesome. Then after coming out of the body, the child is helpless. He cannot express these troubles—sometimes cry. If mother is careful, takes care—otherwise he is in great trouble. Suppose some ant is biting, he cannot express; he cries simply, and mother also cannot detect why the child is crying. This is position. In this way, again growing up, no child wants to go to the school—he is forced to go to the school. Then when he is grown up, again family man to take responsibility of family. So the whole life is struggle for existence, then old age, so many disease, frustration, then again death. Again death means, again enter into the mother's womb, again packed up, again come out, and that is also not sure what kind of body he is going to get next. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies, and we can get any one of them. So this change of body is not very good job, but people do not know the science. They are ignorant of this transmigration of the soul, and they are working hard, dying, again taking birth—not as human being; maybe human being or more than human being, or cats and dogs, trees, there's so many. So this is our real problem. In ignorance, we accept one kind of body and stay for some time, again we are kicked out—no permanent situation. In this way, we are under threefold miserable conditions offered by the material nature. *So, people are not concerned about the solution of this problem, they are so foolish rascal. There is no education, there is no enlightenment about this transmigration of the soul from one body to another, and suffering, and they are thinking they are very happy. But from Bhagavad*-gītā we understand we can get relief from this repetition of birth and death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9): anyone who can understand Kṛṣṇa, the result will be na iti , "No more taking birth in the material world" mām eti , "He comes back to Me." So this is the solution. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching people, how to make a solution of this repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. So why people are reluctant to take this movement very seriously? Any question? Hmm. You don't want to make a solution of this problem? Yes, they are . . . have become so dull, just like animals, they do not know what is the solution of the problem . . . (indistinct) *If a person, human being, does not take very seriously this problems of life, he is just like animal, go*-kharaḥ . Go means "cow," and kharaḥ means "ass." So those who are not interested, to make a solution of the problems of life, he is no better than an animal, go-kharaḥ . So this is a civilization of animal education—whole day working like ass. Ass is called mūḍhā . Mūḍhā , he works very hard, a big load of washerman's cloth is laden on his back, and he works, and the washerman gives little grass. He thinks, "He is giving me grass, therefore I must bear this load." He is such a fool that he does not know the grass is available anywhere, free of charges, but he thinks that, "This washerman is giving me grass," therefore he must have this load. Therefore ass is the most foolish animal. Amongst the animals, the most foolish animal. So we are trying to enlighten people to get them out from this foolish way of life. But, it is very difficult. Māyā is very strong. But still we have to try, because Kṛṣṇa Himself comes to enlighten people on this point, and we are supposed to be servant of Kṛṣṇa, so it is our duty to try to enlighten people. But people also should know the responsibility of human life, but they want to live like animals. So you want to live like this, or wish to go back to home, back to Godhead? Like animal, ass. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Boliye apka kya ray hai? Ap to Bharatiya hai. Ap ko to Bharatiya . . . Vedic knowledge to thoda malum hona chahiye. Ye jitne sab hai, wo itna parishram karte hai. To shastra kehte hai, ye sab gadhe hai. Aur hai bhi gadhe. Gadha ke jaisa parishram karte hai aur thoda do roti ke liye. Khane ke liye kutta bhedi ko bhi milta hai aur wo bhi wahi khate hai. Baki itna parishram karte hai aur apna jo manushya jivan ka jo kaam hai, wo kuch nahi hota. (So, what is your opinion? You are an Indian, you should have some knowledge of the *Vedas* . All these people work so hard. As per the scriptures, these people are like asses. And that is quite true. They work hard like donkeys for two pieces of bread which can be obtained so easily even by dogs and sheep. They toil so much that the real business of human life remains neglected forever.) So the Japanese boys, they have understood? Eh? You have understood? The difficulty is they cannot speak English, I cannot speak Japanese. (laughs) The difficulty is there. Anyway, you are supplying them prasādam . Go on doing that one day, they will also come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Ap log roj aate hai, nahi? (Do all of you come everyday or not?) Indian Man: Sunday. Prabhupāda: Sunday. Today is . . .? Devotee: Today is Tuesday. Prabhupāda: Tuesday. Apka kya bal baccha hai? Bal bacche . . . (Do you have any children? Children . . .) Indian Man: Bal bacche nahi . . . (I don't have children . . .) *Prabhupāda: Nahi. Apka patni, bhabhi? (None. Is she your wife or sister*-in-law?) Indian Man: Mere bhai ki . . . (My brother's . . .) Prabhupāda: India se aye hai? Kaha? (Has she come from India? Where?) Indian Lady: Nahi. Osaka me rehte hai. (No. I'm staying in Osaka.) Osaka. Devotee: Osaka is another city. Prabhupāda: Osaka. Oh. Osaka. Ap log Punjabi ho? (Do you belong to the Punjabi community?) Indian Lady: Nahi. Bhatia hai. (No. We are Bhatia.) Prabhupāda: Bhatia? Gujarati? Indian Lady: Karachi. Indian Man: Karachi. Prabhupāda: Karachi. Indian Lady: Sindhi Bhatia. Prabhupāda: Sindhi? Indian Lady: Abhi to hum Bombay me rehte hai. (Currently we are staying in Bombay.) Prabhupāda: Bombay me Sindhi bahut hai. (There are many Sindhis in Bombay.) Indian Lady: Ji. Humare Bhatia sab . . . Sripad Vallabhacharya hai na, unke marg ke hai. (Oh yes. All our Bhatia . . . you know Sripad Vallabhacharya, we are from that path.) Prabhupāda: Achha! Tab to ap log Vaishnav ho. (Great. Then you people are Vaiṣṇavas.) Indian Lady: Ji. Krishna ke hi puja me hai. (Yes. We are Vaiṣṇavas. We worship Lord Kṛṣṇa only.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tabhi to aate hai na. (That is the reason why you come here.) Indian Lady: Shrinathji jate hai. (We go to Srinathji as well.) Prabhupāda: Achha. Srinath Gopal ji jo hai wo hum log ka, Gaudiya Vaishnav. Wo Madhavendra Puri . . . wo apka ye jo Vallabhacharya, wo Vishnu Swami sampradaya. Vaishnav log char sampradaya hai. Hum log hai Madhva sampradaya. Wo Madhavendra Puri ko de diya. Wo Gopal ji humara sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya. (Okay. Srinath Gopal Ji belongs to our lineage, Gaudiya Vaiṣṇava. It was Madhavendra Puri . . . Vallabhacharya , from the disciplic succession of Visnu Swami. Vaishnavas have four disciplic lineages or sampradayas . Our's is Madhva sampradaya. Madhavendra Puri gave it to him. So Gopal Ji was from our sampradaya , Gaudiya sampradaya .) *Indian Lady: Chote Gopal ji, Srinath ji ke paas me. (The small Gopal Ji who is kept near Srinath*-ji.) Prabhupāda: Hmm. Nahi, wo Nathdwara, wo to bada Gopal. (No, the big Gopal Ji in Nathdwara.) Indian Lady: Nahi. Chote. Srimad Vallabhacharya jinki puja karte the na. (No. The small one whom Srimad Vallabhacharya used to worship.) Prabhupāda: Oh! Wo wala. (That one.) Indian Lady: Unka chota Gopal tha. (He had a small Deity of Gopal.) Prabhupāda: Wo wala. (That one. Bal Gopal.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Aur ye Nathdwara me jo Gopal ji hai, wo to bada Gopal hai. (And the Gopal Ji in Nathdwara is the bigger one.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes, yes.) Prabhupāda: Wo Gopal ji Bhagavan Krishna ka jo pota, Bajra . . . unki pratisthit. Phir kuch kuch din baad, kuch gadbad hua to mandir tut gaya tha, Gopal ji jangal me kahi. Phir sapna dete hai, Madhavendra Puri se phir uthaya aur mandir sthapan kiya Govardhan me. Aur unke antim kal me ye Vallabhacharya ko de diya. Wahi Nathdwara. (The Gopal Ji of Nathdwara was installed by Vajranabh, the grandson of Lord Krsna. A few days later, there was some trouble and the temple was destroyed. Gopal Ji was lying in a jungle. Madhavendra Puri, after having a dream, again rescued Gopal from there and installed Him in a temple at Govardhan. And in the final days of his life he had given it to Vallabhacharya. That is Nathdwara.) Indian Lady: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Ap log kitne hai sab Bharatiya idhar? (How many Indians are here all together?) Indian Man: Japan me? Karib teen char hazar. (In Japan? Around three to four thousand.) Prabhupāda: Char hazar. Kaise idhar to koi Bhagavan ka mandir hai hi nahi. (Four thousand? But there is no temple of the Lord anywhere.) Indian Man: Tokyo me nahi hai lekin Osaka, Kobe me hai. (There is no temple in Tokyo but in Kobe and Osaka, temples are there.) Prabhupāda: Kobe me hai? (Is there a temple in Kobe?) Indian Man: Kobe me hai. Gurudwara hai aur Ramakrishna mission ka bhi . . . (Yes, a temple is there in Kobe. Gurudwara is there and Ramkrishna mission also . . .) Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian Man: Ramkrishna mission. Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna mission kya hai? (laughter) Nastik hai. (It does not matter much, Ramkrishna mission (laughter). They are atheists.) Indian Man: Bas wahi do hai. (Only those two are there.) Prabhupāda: Wo to Hindu hi hai nahi. Ye log to Hindu hi hai nahi, Vaishnav to . . . Hindu ka baat nahi hai. Wo Krishna bhakt nahi hai. Idhar ek Krishna Bhagavan ka mandir banao. (These people are not even Hindus, forget about being a Vaiṣṇava. It is not a question of being Hindu. They are not devotees of Lord Krsna. So, build a temple here for the Supreme Lord Sri Kṛṣṇa.) Indian Lady: Wo to Devi ke upasaka hai, Ramakrishna mission. (They are worshippers of the Goddess, the Ramkrishna mission.) *Prabhupāda: Devi ke ho, Devata ho, jo bhi ho, Bhagavan ka hona chahiye. (You may be followers of different demigods and demi*-goddesses but we should be followers of the Supreme Lord.) Indian lady: Ji ha. (Yes.) *Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission na Devi ka, na Deva ka, wo apna pet ka hai bas. Sab kuch khate hai, sab kuch pite hai. (Ramakrishna Mission people are neither followers of any demigod or demi*-goddess, they are followers of their stomach. They eat everything, drink everything.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes.) Prabhupāda: Ye Hindu dharma ka nash kar rahe hai. (They are destroying the Hindu religion.) Indian Lady: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Ap log idhar sab vaishnav banaiye. (You make everyone into a Vaiṣṇava here.) Indian Lady: Hum bhi to vaishnav hai. (We all are Vaiṣṇavas.) Prabhupāda: Ha. Ye log janam se sab mamsa khane wala hai. (Yes. These people were meat eaters by birth.) Indian Lady: Ji. (Yes Sir.) Prabhupāda: Lekin sab chodh diya. Janam se. Sharab chodh diya, nasha bhang chodh diya, cha bhi nahi pite. Hum log bidi, cigarette, chay kuch nahi. Ap to jante hai. Sab jante hai, sari duniya. Aur wo sab khate hai, mamsa, machli, chay, bidi, sharab aur sab bhi, wo kehne ko nahi kuch, sab kuch. Bada jabardast Ramakrishna mission chalate hai. Kya ap log nahi jante? (But now they have given up completely. Since their birth . . . they have left drinking alcohol, any type of intoxicants and even tea. We don't take tobacco, cigarettes, tea . . . nothing. You know this. Everyone knows this all over the world. But they consume everything - meat, fish, tea, tobacco, alcohol and what not. Not even mentionable, everything. What great work they are doing, this Ramakrishna Mission! Didn't you know about this?) Indian Man: Jante hai. (We knew.) Indian Lady: Jante hai. (We knew.) Prabhupāda: Sab koi jante hai. So . . . (Everyone knows this. So . . .) Indian Lady: Lekin kya ye bachpan se wo log aisa life ji rahe hai . . . (But the thing is since childhood they are following such a lifestyle so . . .) Prabhupāda: Kya life me hai, mamsa machli khate hai, kya life? (laughter) Mussulman ka life. Mamsa machli khane wala uska kya life hai. (What lifestyle is this, eating meat and fish, what type of life is this? (laughter) The life of muslims. What life can a person have who eats meat and fish?) Kadaryo bhakhhon kore. (One eats so many dirty things.) A bengali poet . . . nana yoni bhraman kare, Kadaryo bhakhhan kare. Ye mamsa machli khane se kadaryo chiz hai . . . ye log khate nahi. Pashu ka hai to. Ye admi ka nahi. Isko humare shastra me yavana kehte hai. Rakshas kehte hai. Mamsa machli . . . mamsa kaun khata hai, wo kutta khata hai, sher, tiger . . . ye sab jungli log khate hai. Usse kya fayda milega. Tiger ka sharir bada mazboot hota hai. Usse manushya samaj ko kya fayda hoga. Aur ye jo gai hai, wo to mamsa machli nahi khati, uska dudh bina kaam hi nahi chalega. Usko to kat daal te hai. Kya kiya jaye? (One wanders through all the species and eats abominable things. This eating of meat and fish is kadaryo , a dirty thing. Humans do not eat such things. It is for animals, not for human beings. Such people are called yavanas in our scriptures. They are termed as rakshasas . Meat and fish . . . who eats meat? The dogs, lions, tigers . . . all uncivilized men eat such things. What benefit will they get? The tiger's body is very strong. But what benefit can human society have from that? And you see the cow is there, she doesn't eat fish or meat but without her milk, we cannot continue. Now, they are slaughtering her. What can be done?) Indian Lady: Humare jo vaishnav sampradaya ke hai, to abhi abhi jo bhi bahar gaye, sab ne khana shuru kar diya. (In our Vaiṣṇava sampradaya at present, those who are living outside, they have all started eating meat.) Prabhupāda: To ho gaya. Jahannum me jayega, aur kya? (laughter) Jahannum me gaya, aur kya? Vaishnav kya . . . sabhi hum London me dekha, jitna Bharatiya hai sab mamsa khate hai. Aur go mamsa bhi khate hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ye uchit nahi hai. Bhagavan ka prasad . . . idhar ap log prasad khate hai kya? (Then it's over. They will go to hell, what to do. (laughter) They are destined to go to hell. And all the Vaiṣṇavas . . . I have seen in London, all the Indians have started eating meat. They are even eating beef . . . (indistinct) . . . this should not have been done. Prasadam of the Lord . . . do you take prasadam here?) Indian Lady: Ha, ha. Hum kuch bhi nahi khate. Pyaz, lehsun, kuch nahi. (Yes, yes. We don't take anything, no onion, no garlic . . . nothing.) Prabhupāda: Thik. (That's right.) Indian Lady: Anda bhi nahi. Kuch nahi. Pyaz bhi nahi khate. Humare ghar ke mard pite bhi nahi hai wo to . . . cigarette wagera (laughter) . . . (We don't eat eggs either. Nothing, not even onions. The men in our family don't even smoke cigarettes etc. (laughter) . . .) So have kīrtana once more. Ap kitne din yaha rahenge? (How many days will you be staying here?) Prabhupāda: Kal chale jayenge. (I will go tomorrow.) Indian Lady: Kal jayenge . . . (Oh you will go tomorrow . . .) *( kīrtana ) (chants prema*-dhvani ) Prabhupāda: Bahut bhagyavan baccha hai ye. (This child is very fortunate.) Indian Lady: Ha. Kaise . . . (Yes. How he was . . .) Prabhupāda: Shuru se nachna . . . (He began dancing from the very beginning . . .) Indian Lady: . . . nachna shuru karta hai (. . . began to dance.) (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: (devotees offer obeisances) So there is prasādam for everyone. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation -- January 30, 1974, Tokyo Devotee: According to him, he hasn't disobeyed the regulative principles of eating meat, intoxication, sex life. But he has some fantasyland in his mind, which he tries to live in. Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him, to talk. Devotee: All right. Sañjaya! (break) *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so you have to learn so many things. Don't confuse yourself as authority. Then you will be misled. Therefore one has to accept a guru , just to give him direct. Anything, any field of activity, if one is know . . . ācāryavān puruṣo veda (Chāndogya Upaniṣad). One who is being directed by ācārya , he knows things. Not a vagabond. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda . Why one goes to college, school? Just to follow the instruction of the teacher, and then he becomes educated. This is the general method. Anything you want to learn, you have to approach a person who knows the thing. Whimsically, if you create something in your mind, that is a madman's theory. The Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to, if we are going to learn the supreme science, science of God . . . in ordinary life, if we want to learn how to typewrite, I have to go to a typewriting school and to put this finger that way, put this finger that way. We have to learn in that way. And if we are going to learn Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, you don't require anyone's help, "Let us do anything whimsically, that is all right." It is simply ludicrous, that's all. *That has spoiled the whole spiritual life of the present humanity. Everyone manufactures his own way. There is no . . . if you learn to typewriting, you have to learn systematically: this finger here, this finger . . . not that this finger there, this finger there. That is nonsense. You cannot do anything whimsically. This is nonsense. You have to learn systematically, scientifically. Then you are actually learned in that subject matter. And that is the Vedic injunction: tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet samit-pāṇiḥ . Do you read Bhagavad-gītā ? No. You don't require to read anything; you have perfect devotion. This is spoiled. Human life is so valuable, and in this life you can realize God, you can make solution of all your problems. And if you do whimsically and spoil your life, then the valuable, duration of life, this is not very good thing. If you manufacture, "This man is better devotee," how do you know he's a better devotee? You do not know. This is not the way. If you want to be educated, you must admit yourself as a student in a school, then in a college, then in a university. And if you say: "No, no. I don't care for anything. I know everything. This is best school; *this is better school," what is this? A teacher who has refused training of the spiritual master, how he can become a teacher? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ ( BG 4.2). Our only request is not that we are canvassing, "Come to our camp." No. You must know the science, that is all. How to become devotee, you must know it scientifically. That is all. Otherwise you go to anyone who is there—there are so many other—but because you are interested, so you must know the science. Don't do it whimsically. That will be spoiling it. That is all. If you say that one is better devotee, then you must explain who is a devotee. First of all this: you must know who is a devotee. And then, according to the advancement of devotional life, one is superior, inferior. Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? Prabhupāda: Huh? Sañjaya: How am I to know who to take instruction from? I take from you, but you are not always present. Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to know whether you should be benefited, or whether one is bona fide teacher. First of all you have to know. What is your question? How you are to know? Sañjaya: Who to take instruction from, at given moments, given times. Satsvarūpa: Aside from you—he wants to follow you—but if you're not here, who should he follow? Prabhupāda: I've got so many books. All my instructions are there. Sañjaya: But I read the books with my mind, and I misinterpret. Prabhupāda: Then those who are following me, you go to them that, "I am understanding like this. Is it all right?" *Sañjaya: But Siddha*-svarūpa group was following you, and they were reading and interpreting. So I turned to them and asked questions. *Prabhupāda: But the thing is, Siddha*-svarūpa, how he can interpret that he reads my book and he gives up my company? Is it very good interpretation? Sañjaya: I never knew he gave up your company. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sañjaya: I thought he was still your devotee. *Prabhupāda: No. They have given me up, you see. Of course, Siddha*-svarūpa, I do not know. He is not so fool. But these people, they are in Hawaii—Gaurasundara, and this Sudāmā Vipra—they do not come to see me. What I've done? Eh? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). When you have accepted somebody as a spiritual master . . . if you have given up spiritual master, that is a different thing. But if you accept somebody as spiritual master, you must come and offer your obeisances and respect. That is the first principle. They did not come to me. I remained there how many days? Satsvarūpa: Two weeks. Prabhupāda: Two weeks. I called them also, immediately. What Gaurasundara said? That I can come to him? Like that. Satsvarūpa: They wanted you to visit their place. Prabhupāda: You see? Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ah? Sañjaya: Maybe they have something nice for you. Prabhupāda: Something? Sañjaya: Something nice, on their property, or their place, for you. Prabhupāda: Oh. So something nice, therefore you can call your spiritual master, "Come here," as you call your dog? Is that very good sign? Sañjaya: No, it is not good sign. Prabhupāda: Anyone who will manufacture his own way of devotion, he is a rascal. It is not possible. Sañjaya: So they are manufacturing their own way of devotion now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Their keeping long hairs, karmi ? Yes. And what do they say? "There is no need of living in the temple. There is . . ." What is the . . . just like you also said like that: "There is no need of living in the temple." What did he say? "It is better to live in the railway station"? Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: Huh? Sañjaya: Than get up for maṅgala-ārati . Prabhupāda: In the railway station also there is rules and regulation. When the train comes: rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang, rang . Why? Why you get up? "Oh, train is coming." Everywhere you go there are rules and regulation. You cannot find any place without rules and regulation. There is no possibility to escape rules and regulation. If you break the ordinary health rules, immediately you will become sick. You cannot transgress the rules and regulation of material nature. Immediately you become sick, and you'll have to suffer. So there is no such thing as to transgress rules and regulation. You have to. If you challenge, that is your foolishness. Anywhere you go, you have to follow the rules and regulation. If you don't follow, then you will have to suffer. Is it not? Anywhere you go. Anywhere, where you go, you'll have to live under the rules and regulation of material nature. That you cannot escape. So where you'll go, either you go to Japan or you go to America or anywhere you go, the principles of rules and regulation and nature is the same. Can you break the rules and regulations—sometimes they say: "Keep to the right, keep to the left"? That is not possible. If you want to drive your car on the street, you must follow the rules. Can you transgress the red light and yellow light? No. Where is the possibility of becoming independent? Is there any possibility? Anywhere you go. Sañjaya: No, there is always some law or some rule and regulation. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. So how you'll avoid that? And above all, just like you are a nice young boy, so you have to follow the rules and regulation to become an old man like me. Can you avoid? Sañjaya: No way around it. Prabhupāda: Then where is the possibility of breaking rules and regulation? If you don't follow, you'll be forced to follow. That is criminality. When you are forced to follow, that is criminality. And if you voluntarily follow, that is civility. You cannot avoid. There is no such chance. The rules and regulation, nature's law: One has to take birth, to come to the material world, through the agency of father and mother. That father and mother may be human being or cats and dogs or anyone, but this is the rule. Through the father and mother you have to come. Can anyone avoid that, that "Without father and mother I will come"? (laughter) So the beginning of your life there are rules and regulation. Huh? Similarly, as soon as you become old, natural death. It is not that . . . that you can avoid death. You must die—today or tomorrow or a hundred years after. You must die. "As sure as death." Then? Can you avoid the rules and regulation? You cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your birth; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your death; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of falling sick; you cannot avoid the rules and regulation of your becoming old. You have to follow. But at heart we have got a tendency to think like that, that "How I can avoid these rules and regulation?" That tendency's there. That is possible when you are liberated. So long you are under the rules and regulation of the material nature, you cannot avoid. But when you're liberated from the clutches of māyā , then you can avoid. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: how to become liberated from these rules and regulation. Within the jail you cannot break rules and regulation. You must follow. If you don't follow, then you'll be more punished. So when one is liberated from the jail, he is free. Similarly, so long we get this material body, we have to follow the rules and regulations of material laws. We cannot avoid. If you don't follow, you'll be more punished. Just like a human being—he's given the chance, a better form of life than the other animals. But if he does not follow the rules and regulation of a human being, he'll again going to cat and dog. Can you avoid it? Then? Sañjaya: The rule and regulation for the human being is to learn to love God? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only business of human being. *That is first*-class occupational duty: how to learn to love God. Sañjaya: And we can only learn through a bona fide spiritual master? Through the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is the representative of God. So if you cannot love your spiritual master, how you can love God? If you love me, you love my dog. Suppose you love somebody, and in his presence you kick his dog. Will he be pleased? Sañjaya: He will not. *Prabhupāda: He will immediately, "You rascal, you don't come here. Get out!" Therefore it is common saying: "If you love me, love my dog, first." So if you love God's dog, then God automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo (ŚrīŚrī Gurv-aṣṭaka). If he is pleased, then God automatically is pleased—even if you're wrong. This is the way. These boys, they are doing that. I am an Indian; I've come from foreign country. I did not bring any riches for them, or bribe them. Why they are following? Out of love. Sañjaya: That's why I am following you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: But if you live alone in the railway station, how you can follow? Huh? Just like a boy and girl, love—"Yes, you live three thousand miles away, and I live three thousand miles away, and still we love." What is that love? Love, there are six symptoms: These symptoms of love means one must give and take. One must disclose his mind and take instruction. One must give him to eat, and one must take something from him to eat. These are the six symptoms of love. Give and take. Just like you have given me this flower, so you have given. So if I instructed, "You take it," that is give and take. If I offer you prasādam , you should bring some foodstuff. You should disclose your mind, and you should say that, "This is my problem; you should hear me." This is a symptom of love. Everything is there. So our only request is that our business is we are in this old age traveling four times in a year. What is material benefit out of it? I am old man. I cannot move. I am eighty years, and two years less. Naturally this is not the age for traveling, retirement. But why I am traveling? Because I wanted to satisfy my Guru Mahārāja. That is the only reason. I wanted to satisfy the desire of my Guru Mahārāja, the desire of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And therefore at night I don't sleep; *I dictate. I publish this book. I go from country to country, village to village, town to town. And they also reciprocate, these boys. They're helping me, how to publish these book, these boys. That boy is editing twenty*-four hours; he is typing. Do I pay them anything? Sañjaya: Not material. Prabhupāda: That's all. This is love. "I go away from Guru Mahārāja and live four hundred miles away, and I love Guru Mahārāja." This is not . . . nonsense. You show some symptoms of love, that, "My Guru Mahārāja wants to do this. Oh, I must help him." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted, prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, everywhere must there be—I mean to say—broadcasting My missionary activities." So my Guru Mahārāja attempted that. Everyone should attempt. Anyone who is followers . . . just like any, any religion, any system. Just like a Christian, if he is real Christian, if he is actually following Lord Jesus Christ, Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." He must propagate, "You shall not kill." But where is that Christian who is propagating? They are killing. On the other hand they are killing. Is that a good Christian? Sañjaya: They are not following, so they are not good. Prabhupāda: That is the . . . you see. It is clearly said in the first commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." So every Christian, they must preach this cult. That is Christian. And he's helping killing, and he's a Christian? Similarly, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is prithivite achhe yata nagarādi gram : "As many towns and villages are there, you must preach this cult." That is really devotee, one who is doing this. He may not be very successful preacher; *that doesn't matter. Because he is doing that, he is first*-class devotee. Anywhere you go, that is real love. That is real follower. What his predecessor has ordered, that must be done. At any risk. It doesn't matter whether it is being nicely done or not nicely done—because he is attempting to do that, that is sufficient. That very attempt will make him successful. This is the principle. You see? Uh, we must . . . vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ . Unfortunately, you do not read. What for we are publishing so many books, for the enlightenment of the people? Find this verse. Nitai: Gita , second chapter. *"Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many*-branched." Prabhupāda: Yes. "Who are irresolute." Now, our only resolution was that, "Guru Mahārāja wanted this. Let me try it." And with resolute purpose, I tried it. And therefore, I do not know, but people say that I have done very wonderful. People say that. Even in our countrymen, those who are not very favorably disposed to, they also admit that I have done something wonderful. But what is the secret of this success? That resolution that, "My Guru Mahārāja wanted this. I shall try my best to do this," that's all. I have no other secrets. Rather, I was doubtful that, "What I have got position, how people will understand? Still, let me try my best," that's all. Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do? Prabhupāda: Ah? Sañjaya: For Japan, what would you like us to do? Prabhupāda: That I have already advised. Where is Bhanu? Devotee: He is busy with the Deities now. Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Japan . . . why Japan? Anywhere. This is, at the present moment, the whole civilization is demonic. Whole civilization. The demons, they will not very much inclined to hear about philosophy. They are not inclined. There is a Bengali saying, churā na mane ghar me kayi . Suppose a man is thief, and if you instruct him good lessons, "My dear man, you are stealing. It is not very good. You are doing, so you'll have to suffer misery," does he care for it? Does he care? "Oh, you rascal, go on talking—I shall do my own business." So churā na , he is a churā , he's a thief. You give him good philosophy, he will not hear. Then, how to cure him? That is given by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu: *Give him chance to hear this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Chant yourself, either by this karatāla and drums. If it is prohibited, then distribute books. This is also chanting, just like we recite it. Somehow or other, let him hear something about us. This is chanting, śravanaṁ. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), through chant and hear. If he's not chanting, let him hear. If he's not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you chant; let him hear. That will cure. So that is the way. So in Japan or anywhere, everyone is demon. These wonderful things . . . and we're thinking the material advancement. Suppose this Dictaphone . . . this Dictaphone is all right, so long it is used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The 747 airplane is very good, so long it carries devotees for preaching work. This is the philosophy. *Everything must be . . . so we do not hate anything, because we know that everything has got relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And if that thing is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, that is perfect. That is perfect. We are using everything—the electricity, the Dictaphone, the table—but we are not using it for sense gratification. Every moment we are engaged. Avyartha*-kālatvam (CC Madhya 23.18), that is higher advance that, "This time I have passed, what I have done for Kṛṣṇa?" This is character of advancement, "What I have done for Kṛṣṇa? What I have done for my Guru Mahārāja?" If in this way we lead our life, that is perfect. That is perfect. "Guru Mahārāja has entrusted me with this business. How far I have done this?" that is perfect. *So if you don't care for your Guru Mahārāja, don't care for Kṛṣṇa and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and you do whimsically what you like, that is not progress. That is degradation. These are the formula: avyartha . . . nāma*-gāne sadā ruci (CC Madhya 23.32), avyartha-kālatvaṁ, prītis tad-vasati-sthale (CC Madhya 23.19). The advanced devotee will feel like this, "How I shall live in a temple or in a place like Vṛndāvana and Mathurā, prītis tad-vasati-sthale ?" Prīti means love—to live there, where Kṛṣṇa's devotee is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Kṛṣṇa's temple is there. Not in the railway station. Prītis tad-vasati-sthale. Nāma-gāne sadā ruci , always hankering after, "How I can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra ?" Nāma-gāne sadā. Avyartha-kālatvaṁ , to scrutinizely seeing whether I have wasted my time without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things are the symptoms of advanced devotee. You cannot say: "Oh, he's advanced." What he's doing for Kṛṣṇa? First of all think, "He's advanced devotee; *that is all right. But what is he doing for his guru ? What is he doing for his . . . Kṛṣṇa?" That is a test. If somebody is doing something whimsically, he is not advanced devotee. He may speak all nonsense, but that is not advancement. You have to see practically: what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa, what is he's doing for his spiritual master. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). These are the process. So you are a very nice boy, I see. Everyone has got potency, but you have got a special inclination. So my request is that don't spoil your life. Life is very valuable. You do not imagine, concoct something, and follow. That will not help. You must follow the standard rules and regulations, standard way. Then you will be successful. Don't do anything whimsically. That will not help. That is our request. Sañjaya: Thank you. Prabhupāda: All right. (devotees offer obeisances) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, now generally we have Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam class. Prabhupāda: Yes. So, want me? Devotee: Please. Prabhupāda: Alright, let us go? (end) Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Vrndavana *Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's son*-in-law, they came to see me. Gurudāsa: Any service for me? Prabhupāda: What you are doing there now? Gurudāsa: Um, I've just been talking with Saurabha about the Māyāpur plans to present at this conference in Vancouver, acquisition. We're making a presentation there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: So we're getting that together. Tomorrow I'm leaving. Prabhupāda: For Vancouver? *Gurudāsa: No, I'm go . . . tomorrow I'm going to join Bhavānanda for a week, Bhavānanda Swami. Then I go to Delhi to see . . . and I'm also going to Bhuvaneśvara for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Then I'm going to Delhi to see that American Ambassador again about putting our name on the food list, Indo*-American food list, then Vṛndāvana, then Vancouver. Prabhupāda: So gradually there will be . . . (indistinct) . . . go where? Gurudāsa: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Delhi to New York? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then go to the Western . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: New York then . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: I think it is direct. That I can do. Indian man: America chala jayega. (Went to America.) Prabhupāda: Idhar baithiye. Akele aya aap toh? (Sit here. You all came alone?) . . . (indistinct) . . . dekhiye kaise ye log sab prachaar kar rahe hai. (Just see how this boy is preaching.) Indian man: Humare un karovar ke liye jaane ka vichaar tha wo toh kab jan jan ka sajjan hai. (I was thinking of going there for business purposes, but that will be after the business is established well, then we will see.) Prabhupāda: Kya? (What?) Indian man: In relation with our business also, I am thinking of going. Prabhupāda: No business. (laughter) Don't go. Business is this hari kīrtana . Dekho ye log business sab jaante hai. Toh unse business kaun karega? (Just see, they know how to do business very well but who will do business with them?) Guest (1): Anyway, kind of you. I just said that I had thought of that in my own different way also. Prabhupāda: Business is bad. Gurudāsa: People carry on business for happiness and enough to eat and enough clothing. That, no separate endeavor is necessary. Kṛṣṇa gives it all, and more happiness. We can attest to that because we did business. All of us were businessmen. Prabhupāda: Humara ye sab prchar me kam se kam daily dus hazaaar aadmi ekhathe hote hai. Koi humara . . . (In our preaching program about ten thousand people attend everyday. Our nothing is) . . . Guest (1): . . . koi kam nahi karta hai. (indistinct) . . . (Nothing falls short. The Lord only gives.) Prabhupāda: Hum aise hi rehte hai. (indistinct) . . . (They stay here like this, they are all well educated people) . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, I see that are . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): No, I am not leaving. Whether Kṛṣṇa gives me fifty rupees or five million rupees, it does not make much difference, because I am in the line, because I am in the line. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest (1): I may leave any time. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Guest (1): I may leave any time also. Prabhupāda: That is our purpose to do something. Guest (1): Unfortunately some things happened, and some court matters are going on. Prabhupāda: Court? Guest (1): Court matters, some, some lawsuits, etc., which I have filed which aggregate to the extent of about crore rupees or so. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Guest (1): Oh, I mean I'll get that much. That could be as good amount as you file . . . Prabhupāda: Where? Where? Your claim? Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You have to . . . you have to pay so much stamping fee. Guest (1): No. The maximum stamp duty to be paid is fifteen thousand. Even if you've got a claim of fifteen crores , fifteen thousand is the maximum stamp duty you have to pay. You don't have to pay more. Prabhupāda: Fifteen thousand you have to pay? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Anartheno nyaya rohita . . . in this age, Kali. Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . he owes me money, and I couldn't get my money back from him. *Prabhupāda: If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming after all it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then . . . vaqil (. . . lawyer) so on, so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali*-yuga. Anartheno nyaya rohita. Nyay milega hi nahi (You will not get justice) . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some spaces, but even then you have to field yourself two times . . . (indistinct) . . . and remain in the . . . I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego . . . (indistinct) . . . what you're saying is hundred percent true. It's like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. And nowadays bribe also. Guest (1): Yeah. This is a must. *Prabhupāda: Fourth*-class, śūdra . . . (indistinct) . . . bribe. Guest (1): It is concerning one of the partners. . . . (indistinct) . . . another partner. Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . they demand it as a bribe also. Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . your partner like that? *Gurudāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali*-yuga. Guest (1): One thing is there: When I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get . . . Prabhupāda: If you're getting . . . Guest (1): I am liberated that very day. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Gurudāsa: Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat. Guest (1): Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to . . . I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things. Gurudāsa: Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced. Guest (1): Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the . . . *Gurudāsa: Advanced means such*-and-such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. I don't go. (break) . . . Prabhupada from 1923 to '37 Guest (2): We have got an appointment. We have got . . . (break) Guest (3): . . . somewhere. Saturday they close at . . . by 3 or 3:30, so I want to go before that. Prabhupāda: You can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty. Prasadam be ready by half past twelve, one (laughter) Guest (3): No, why bother? . . . (indistinct Hindi) Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva duḥkhānāṁ . (laughter) Guest (3): Hānir asyopajāyate. *Prabhupāda: I can tell you one practical. So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye ( SB 3.31.1). Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod—Indra, Candra, Varuṇa—or as human being or as animal, the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is overflood, they take the eggs on the head—you have seen the red ant?—and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their . . . the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas , that is there. *Indra , there is indragop , one very small insect. It is also called indra, indragop , insect. And another Indra is the King of heaven. So śāstra says from this Indra to that indra , everyone is bound up by his karma . It includes all others, from this indra to that Indra. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). Everyone is bound up by the resultant action of his karma . It cannot be changed. *So śāstra says don't try to change your karma*-phala . Better utilize that energy for becoming advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you cannot change the destiny. That is not possible. Then shall I not endeavor for improvement of my economic . . . economic position? No. Why? I am, because destiny, whatever you have got your destiny, you'll get it. How shall I get it? Now suppose if you are put into some unwanted circumstances—you do not want it—you are forced to accept it. So similarly, as distressed condition comes upon you without your wanting, similarly, the position of happiness also will come , even you don't have to try for it. Tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham (SB 1.5.18). Just like distressed condition, unhappiness, nobody wants, but it comes by force. Similarly, the conditional happiness of life . . . because everyone's life is mixed up with some distress or happiness. Nobody can say: "I am simply happy." That is not possible. Distress is there, but nobody wants distress. But it comes. So why happiness will not come? So don't waste your time in this way, because you cannot change this. This will come, automatically. You try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which you never tried. And that is recommended. *And there is a Bengali verse, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya (Prema*-vivarta): to take care of oneself by the fathers, that is available in every life. Because the ant is also taking care. That is not human society, but he's still taking care. A tiger also taking care. The small cubs, they're loitering on the . . . on the body of the lion, and he is feeling very nice. Even monkeys, I have seen. One monkey came in the window, and she had one small child, and somehow or other the child came inside my room. She, that outside monkey, became mad after it. So I had to take . . . (laughs) The affection is there. The ant, they're affectionate; the snake affectionate; the tiger affectionate; the man is affectionate. That is given. Otherwise, who will take care? So therefore the Vaiṣṇava kavi says, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: in every life you'll get father and mother and their protection; *kṛṣṇe guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei: but in every life you cannot get Kṛṣṇa and guru take care of. Because unless you get Kṛṣṇa and guru , then you are within the cycle of birth and death. And you get father and mother and their care, that is all right, but Kṛṣṇa*-guru does not come in that way. That you have to search out. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti . . . (CC Madhya 19.151). Because Kṛṣṇa- guru will give you the nucleus of devotional life. So kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhaja hari ei (Prema-vivarta). So actually, that is the fact. And I was going to tell about Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī was a great devotee, so he was thinking of taking sannyāsa . So he was contemplating that, "I shall now leave my home and take sannyāsa ." So in the meantime, his wife became pregnant. Then he thought that, "I was thinking like that. Anyway, this has happened, and if I take sannyāsa now, what people will say, that 'His wife is pregnant and he has taken sannyāsa , he has gone out of home.' " So he waited, the child was born, and the mother died. (laughing) Then he thought, "I do not know what Kṛṣṇa desires. Who will take care of this child, motherless child?" So that he was thinking very deeply. One lizard dropped before him, one small child lizard. Maane, (Means,) gave birth to a child this small, and the small lizard was staying, and immediately small ant came before the mouth of that small lizard, and he ate. Then Śrīdhara Svāmī thought, "The every arrangement is there. Why I am thinking of this and that?" Immediately went away. Actually, that is the position. The actual care is taken by Kṛṣṇa, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān , nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is taking care of everyone. *Best thing is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his term is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara*-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra . It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila . *So it is recommended in the human form of life first of all training as a brahmacārī , then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty*-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī , remain as brahmacārī; *and twenty*-five years to remain as gṛhastha , family man; *and twenty*-five years as vānaprastha; *and twenty-five years as sannyāsa . This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means.. vānaprastha is the preparation for sannyāsa , and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances, you have fallen into the material condition, but if we take, "This is all-in*-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra . It is circumstances. We have fallen into . . . under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement. So our this institution, that is our ambition, that we are giving . . . trying to give facilities, at least to some intending person, especially retired person, to take advantage of this institution. As far as possible live, for we have got rooms like that. Live there and take little prasādam , and fully devote time how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success of life. So it is authorized by the śāstras, pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . Therefore you'll find still. But now the things have changed that every holy places there are so many men retired. (break) Pradyumna: (break) Prabhupāda: ". . . with my family member shall come to fight with me, so what shall I say, that I have to kill my nephew, I have to kill my brother, I have to kill my grandfather, this is the fight? No, no, I am not going to fight, let them all die." That is natural. So read it. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "So how can I kill my brother and nephew and others, family members? So my bow is dropping." Go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, viparītāni . "I came to fight, to gain my kingdom, but I see the opposite." Viparītāni . "I'll not be able to enjoy my kingdom by killing them." That thing is said there. Go on. Pradyumna: Ah, translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. You can go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. Pradyumna: "I do not see how any good can come from killing my own kinsmen in this battle, nor can I, my dear Kṛṣṇa, desire any subsequent victory, kingdom or happiness." Prabhupāda: Naturally this will be. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Generally we improve our material condition just to become happy with relatives. When we construct a new house, we invite relatives. So they may come, they will say: "Oh, you have done very nice," and he is also pleased, "My relatives, they have seen." But "If all the relatives are killed, then how it will be possible for me to enjoy the kingdom?" Yeṣām arthe kāṅkṣitam rājyam . Pradyumna: Bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhogāḥ sukhāni ca . Then? Pradyumna: Ta ime 'vasthitā yuddhe . Prabhupāda: "They, for whom I wanted this kingdom, they are in my path. I have to kill them. So what kind of fight is this?" Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "I have to kill them, all the religious and family members." Then? Pradyumna: Etān na hantum icchāmi . Prabhupāda: "I don't like. I don't want this fight." (laughs) Then? Pradyumna: Ghnato 'pi madhusūdana. Prabhupāda: "Then let them kill me. I'll tolerate that. But I am not going to kill them." Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś . . . (BG 2.11): "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā . And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e . . . (BG 18.66): "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, you do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam , "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. (break) . . . a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and He is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. "What kind of God He is?" They have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this . . . Devotee: In New York. Prabhupāda: New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that, "How it is good, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?" Although Arjuna was making his own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him *Gītā* and then inducing him to change his plan, "Go on, fight!" (end) Conversation A -- February 8, 1974, Vrndavana (poor recording) (Indian devotee reciting Sanskrit praṇaṁ - mantras ) (break) Prabhupāda: Nītyānanda Prabhu. Gurudas: Is he . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī . Gurudas: Is he the one who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudas: There's one Nītyānanda prabhu who lived with you in Vṛndāvana? When Puruṣottama lived with you also? One Nītyānanda? Prabhupāda: No, he lives in Orissa. Gurudas: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Near, Padampur. Gurudas: Oh. Prabhupāda: He has got a paper, Parmarthik? Devotee: Siddhanta Bhakti. Prabhupāda: He is very sincere worker, brahmacārī . (break) Guest: (indistinct) . . . eschen . . . (has come . . .) Prabhupāda: Eschen, bhalo korechen. (Good that you have come.) Guest: . . . (indistinct Bengali) Prabhupāda: Besh bhalo. Apnar bhab o bhalo. (Good. Your feelings are very good.) Guest: Ami mone korlam apni ekbar asben. Sudhu sunei thaklam apni asben. Kintu kobe esechen seto khabar pai ni. Ajke yakhan Mathura theke ekjan amar bari esechilo Radha kunde. Se bollo, "Prabhupada ese gechen Vrndavane ebong kalke oto cole yabe." (I was thinking when you will come. I heard that you will come. But when you have finally come, I haven't got that news. Today one person from Mathura came to my place at Radha Kunda. He informed me that, "Prabhupāda has already arrived at Vrndavana and may leave tomorrow.") (break) I just purchased that Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Two parts. Really wonderful. Earlier I had read one book by Swami Shivananda of Hṛṣīkeśa . . . (indistinct) . . . about Krsna's philosophy, ethics. So after that, I read this really most appealing and wonderful . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Our books are selling very nicely. We’re selling books for forty thousand rupees daily. That is the main standing. Our whole expenditure went there. Please cooperate with this movement. Guest: I am at your disposal. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest: At your command. So you can make me for the . . . (indistinct) . . . documents and all that. *Prabhupāda: (aside) Na, ami ota te thutu feli. (No, I spit in that pot.) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . no botheration. Just have chanting. No botheration from Kali? That I . . . (indistinct) . . . but we cannot give you princely order. That is not possible. Simply just to maintain the body and soul together, that I can. But this is . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore I am little strict, that from constantly . . . (indistinct) . . . for nothings. And if there is no Deity money, then picture is there. Only the dress—put the picture. That is also Deity, is it not? Is it not? Yes. Or even in the mind. That is also Deity. Picture is also Deity. And one who cannot provide even picture, the mind is there. Just think of Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma and prepare foodstuff, all kinds of foodstuff, and offer within the mind. You have not seen that picture? Yes. He was preparing khīr, and wanted to . . . (break) "Shall I give the Lord so hot? Let me see." Then he touched, his finger is burned. There is no khīr , (laughing) but the finger is burned. These are the instances. A devotee can offer, that serve Kṛṣṇa, so many ways, so many ways. But we should try to serve Kṛṣṇa as gorgeously as possible. But if you have no means, then other things also. Not that, "We have to do it this way." No. The Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, have got their temple. I expected that you must have, Americans . . . (indistinct) . . . but if it is not possible, then it is patraṁ puṣpaṁ with picture, that's all. There is no question of stoppage. Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). Devotional service cannot be stopped in any circumstances. (Cross talk from other audio recording fades in and out until end). So my first business is to see that somehow or other the temple is complete. Then we shall see whether there is Deity or there is dress. If in the meantime it is possible, you do. And if there is no means, then you cannot take from the construction. This is my point. Is that clear? Yes. And so far money is concerned, whatever money is there, then you'll spend everything for temple, not for other things. Therefore I am trying to minimize as much as possible, and necessity must be there. Otherwise that money is for this Vṛndāvana, the construction and maintenance. Now I want to finish this. So do like that. Is that all right? Gurudas: Yes. Prabhupāda: Finish the construction at any cost. Your wood has come? Gurudas: Wood has come. Yes. Prabhupāda: Ah, so finish the temple, and I think iron will come by tomorrow or day after tomorrow. In the meantime, you'll fix up the wood and whatever iron. Yes. You bring it. Keep account whatever Deity collection is there. Gurudas: Yes. Prabhupāda: That's all. That money is there? Gurudas: Yes. Twenty thousand, and another ten will come when it is sent. Prabhupāda: Do it very cautiously, because after all, we are beggar. That you should consider. But if somebody comes forward, that is our business—to induce others, moneyed man. Let his money be spent. That we are doing actually. But this money what I have brought or what I have given at Bombay, this about forty lakhs of rupees. What I have brought from USA, that is my book. That is my . . . we can say, that writing book at night and inducing these devotees: go and sell, go and sell, go and sell. In this way it is going on. This is not contribution. George has given contribution, but that is house. But nobody gives us money for it. And here also you don't get any big contribution, except that Birla has contributed. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Turani has given four lakhs . Prabhupāda: Given? Tamal Kṛṣṇa: He's given fifty thousand, and now he'll give the balances. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So here we can . . . from Bombay do that. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But all this money, what I have brought from USA, I have sent about six lakhs for Māyāpur, and about fifteen lakhs . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Bombay. Prabhupāda: Bombay. And this is also about nine lakhs . So? Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Thirty lakhs . Prabhupāda: Thirty lakhs of rupees. And others, I estimate forty lakhs . Anyway . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Yes, because you put some money in a trust in America. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: So there is the other ten. Prabhupāda: Ten lakhs . Yes. Ten lakhs I have put for maintenance. So why there is no work today? They're not working? Devotee: Yes, they're working. Prabhupāda: Working? So finish in this way. And it is not possible to bring money any more. If possible, I'll bring. But it has given me too much strain. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: We cannot expect it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Too much strain. In Bombay, that, you know, how telephone after telephone, and this Mrs. Nair, this attorneys, this, that, all. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: That was amazing. You said that was the biggest battle . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: . . . of all. Prabhupāda: Overnight it if we want to payment. Immediately make a call, I take fifty, thirty thousand. Give immediately. Tamal Kṛṣṇa: Every night, we were going from early in the morning 'till midnight, every day practically, with meetings. (break) *Prabhupāda: Now, please try to save me from all this strain. Whatever is done, done. Try to maintain it. And what is there? For Vṛndāvana, there is no anxiety. A little roti and rice, you'll be able to offer to Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. There will be no difficulty. Somehow or other finish the temple and install the Deity. If it is not possible install Deity, you have got this picture there. Gurudas: I think we will make one set of clothes. Prabhupāda: Do whatever you . . . like that yes. So why so gorgeous? If you are short of money, the principle should be that we should request somebody; he should supply. This temple construction, we are taking responsibility. The Gosvāmīs did not do that. Gurudas: Mānsiṅgh took. Prabhupāda: Yes. They, one big man came that way. So many big men come. So they offer service, "What can I do?" So they prescribe according to his position. When King Mānsiṅgh came, "Yes, you can construct a very nice temple. You have got money." So they constructed. It is not that Rūpa Gosvāmī had to collect money and see the supervision. The man who came to give some service according to his position, he said: "All right, you can construct a nice temple." So he constructed that temple. (Break) We have to see how far progress is made. So far, there is no progress. What I left at that . . . Tamal Kṛṣṇa: The sanctioning of the . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No progress has been made. What I left, it is . . . (break) Just to make these things more clear: the stress should be given to complete the temple as soon as possible. When the temple is complete, then ask for the Deity. Fifteen thousand is already paid, and that will be . . . balance will be paid. Now, dress, if there is money, you'll make His dress ten thousand cost. But if there is no money, then ordinary cloth will be sufficient. This is clear*-cut program. Is that all right? Now go. (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- February 9, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: Seven hundred? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: On the other side of . . . (indistinct) . . . I think it crosses . . . Prabhupāda: In USA . . . (break) Ek ghanta me . . . (indistinct) (In one hour or so) . . . (indistinct) Guest (1) (Indian man): Hmm. Ji ha. (Okay.) Gurudāsa: Even car, the roads are so big. Prabhupāda: Ah, bus service is all right? Nahi, wo to transportation to bahut hi acchi hai USA me. Ek Greyhound motorcycle hai, Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . . (No, transportation is very nice in the USA. There is one Greyhound motorcycle of the Rockefeller company . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) Guest (1): I don't think these people have seen the ekka here, have you? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Have you seen the ekka? Prabhupāda: I think it is now obsolete. Guest (1): Obsolete now. I don't see it now. Gurudāsa: Train? Guest (1): No . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Just like . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The ekka had like this . . . Guest (1): There is a platform like this. Prabhupāda: It moves on the roof of the house. (laughter) Unka desh me abhi wo ho gaya na, helicopter. (Now, in their country they have helicopters.) Guest (1): Helicopter. Prabhupāda: Wo chat pe. (On the roof.) (break) . . . New York, goes to Los Angeles and then to Honolulu, then Tokyo, then Hong Kong, then New Delhi . . . no. Hong Kong to Bangkok, Bangkok to New Delhi, New Delhi to Karachi, Karachi to Beirut, then, I think, London, then again New York. One. One round. Usi ka ticket hum log kharidte hai. (We buy tickets for that only.) One round. Guest (1): To beech me stoppage . . . (So is there a stoppage in between) . . . (break) (laughter) Prabhupāda: (indistinct Hindi) . . . Aj kal restriction . . . (Nowadays there is restriction . . .) (laughing) (break) Fifty crores . Guest (1): Huh? More than that. (laughter) More than that? Why not? *Prabhupāda: Not fifty crores . Fifty*-five lakhs . *Guest (1): Fifty*-five lakhs . Oh. Prabhupāda: This George Harrison, he came here. Guest (1): George Harrison? He has donated in cash or that building? Prabhupāda: Not that building. Guest (1): That building. Prabhupāda: He has purchased for me. Guest (1): Ācchā . Prabhupāda: It is named Bhaktivedanta Manor. Guest (1): Ācchā . Guest (2) (Indian man): Bhaktivedanta . . .? Prabhupāda: Manor. Guest (2): Manor. Prabhupāda: He contributed for this book $19,000. Practically he gave starting. Yes. No. Starting was that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I printed. Then I printed this book. Then by selling this book, this book, that book, like that. He is very good boy. He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Chanting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Sab chod diya? (He left everything?) Prabhupāda: Nahi, wo apna business chal raha hai. (No, he is doing his business.) Now what is the latest record? Gurudāsa: "Kṛṣṇa, I miss You. Kṛṣṇa, where are You?" Guest (1): The song? Prabhupāda: There was . . . Guest (1): Song? Prabhupāda: Yes, song. His song, as soon as one record is published, then millions is sold. Then millions. Guest (1): I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right . . . perfect method of prachār . Prabhupāda: No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan? Gurudāsa: Bob Dylan. Prabhupāda: Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda what can I do for him." He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted. Guest (1): He's also attracted. Prabhupāda: Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya? Gurudāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Vaijayanti. Guest (1): Vaijayanti Mala. She's a very famous actress. Prabhupāda: She's very nice girl, actually . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): They are my sister, my younger sister. Younger sister. Prabhupāda: Dekhiye bhai saheb jaisa bhajan karta hai ap bhi . . . (Perform bhajan just like your brother) . . . (break) ISKCON Hotel. Government se do crore rupaya manga hai. (I have requested the government for two crore rupees.) Guest (2): Government loan, loan? Indian government se? Kaha ka? (From the Indian government? From where?) Prabhupāda: Loan. Here Indian government. (break) My eldest son was born in 1921. Guest (2): I was born in 1917. Prabhupāda: Seventeen . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (break) Guest (2): Mayavadi thode hi na hu prabhuji. (I am not a mayāvādi prabhuji.) Guest (3): Mayavadi to Krishna hote hai so hum hote hai. (Kṛṣṇa is a mayāvādi so we are too.) *Prabhupāda: Mayavadi ka ashray le rahe hai. Huh? Nahi, ye swayam Krishna hai, wo mayadhisha hai. Mayavadi nahi, mayadhisha. (Taking shelter of mayāvādis. Huh? No, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, He is māyādhīśa. Not mayāvādi, māyādhīśa.) (break) . . . Jo Krishna ko bhul gaya, to Krishna kehte hai mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ. Krishna ko bhul jana . . . (One who has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ . . . jñānam apohanaṁ (BG 15.15). Forgetting Kṛṣṇa) . . . (break) . . . transcendental . . . every part. Purana tuta*-futa, ye sab kuch nahi, sab transcendental. Aisa ye kutta, suar, jo kuch hai sab transcendental. Idhar koi kharab chiz nahi. (Old and broken, there is nothing like that, all this is transcendental. Even these dogs, pigs, everything is transcendental. There is no bad thing here.) (break) . . . Vrindavan chodne ko nahi chahta . . . (indistinct) . . . humara jo quarter hai, humara jo baithne ka sitting room, isse dedh guna aur humara bathroom iska three-fourth. Aur bedroom, wo bhi half samajh lijiye. Half nahi, half se zyada. Ye sab . . . (Do not want to leave Vṛndāvana . . . (indistinct) . . . our quarter, the sitting room, that is one and a half times bigger than this and our bathroom is three-fourth of this. And the bedroom, that is also half. Not half, a little more than half. All this) . . . (break) Guest (2): (break) . . . jisme ke itne hazaro hazaro souls ka career involve ho wo kisi ek . . . (where thousands and thousands of souls' career is involved, for one) . . . (break) Guest (3): Humare shri gurudev kaha karte the, bade param pandit the . . . (Our respected gurudev used to say, he was a big pandit) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: (break) . . . trustees. Because he contributes. He contributes, and that boy, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he also contributes. (break) (laughter) You are not religious, huh? (laughter) (break) *Guest (4): . . . stay at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa in Puruṣottama Gosvāmī's old house, in Rādhā-Rāmaṇa. Lately I'm staying at . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahārāja's āśrama . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: So what is the condition of the work? Finished? Gurudāsa: Not finished. (break) Prabhupāda: He requires so many things. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whether he is connected. Encourage him to the Deity worship at Yamunā. What can we do? (pause) So wood has come? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're arranging for roofing? Gurudāsa: Any for roofing? No, this is for scaffolding. Actually, also some wood planks for the roof to be casted with the steel. So that plank wood has also come, and all these for casting, uh, for scaffolding has also come. And Guṇārṇava spoke to Tejiyas on the telephone, and he said that within a few days the steel would be ready. So I'm also going to go to Delhi the day after tomorrow and check on the steel, and I think we'll bring it down and start. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes, we'll do that. I'll do that. (break) . . . so one can learn Deity worship in Vṛndāvana. I also will learn that Deity worship. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles they are doing very nice. Gurudāsa: Hmm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . three men. Gurudāsa: Hmm. That's nice, that's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men at the time at ārati . Gurudāsa: I was wondering. In Imlitala they do one man, but I was thinking three is very . . . at that JK temple in Kanpur, three men. That's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Very nice. (break) Prabhupāda: Profusely flowers, they do it. Los Angeles is most gorgeous, temple. We are to do like that here in Vṛndāvana. Gurudāsa: Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Very gorgeous. All decorated, chandeliers . . . (indistinct) . . . gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas . Keep at least well*-trained devotees, at least twelve. And for all that comfortable life . . . (indistinct) . . . even if you do not know, that money. (break) Gurudāsa: Some people make the . . . cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: Cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: That's right. Gurudāsa: Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice. *Prabhupāda: Is that very good. (break) . . . that is good . . . one who desires well*-being . . . Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . he is called sūrya . Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he desires. Gurudāsa: Yes. And he is not motivated. Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: He is very good, good. (break) Kapoor also is increasing more and more, very much favorable. Sat Bisanchand also is favorable. Is nice. Prabhupāda: Influential man he is? Gurudāsa: Somewhat influential, but . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . that, but now from Rādhā*-Dāmodara Temple he cannot take anything. Gurudāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how he will maintain? Gurudāsa: I don't know. He must have some money. Prabhupāda: And what Panchu is doing? Gurudāsa: Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much. Prabhupāda: How he has left for some service. Gurudāsa: Maybe. I can inquire. Prabhupāda: No. There is no . . . why you should go? Let them do their own work. Gurudāsa: Yes. Devotee: I can sweep over here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Why not? Gurudāsa: Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the śevaite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment . . . Prabhupāda: But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed. Gurudāsa: Yes. Printed receipt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Printed form. Gurudāsa: So I should again pay to Gaurachand Gosvāmī? I think so. Prabhupāda: This, this, this . . . (indistinct) . . . complete. Gurudāsa: But that . . . that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Next time I, when I come . . . Devotee: Come, it, roof should be ready. Prabhupāda: . . . I want to see that it is, roof is complete, and then we begin. So another thing: should I take rates for the marble from others, or we shall accept this? Gurudāsa: I've already taken rates, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: And now this man, Narayan Das, says that yesterday they said that it did . . . the rates did not include people to put the marble in. It did not include laborers to install. Prabhupāda: No, no. They have . . . they have to order this, because . . . (indistinct) . . . include everything. Gurudāsa: If it includes, it is a good rate. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Gurudāsa: But in, in Makrana I got the rate seven*-fifty, eight rupees. Seven, seven-fifty, eight for dungri , that kind. And about two-fifty to three extra for labor. So if they charge eight or seven, including labor and delivery and polishing, it is good rate, but if it is just delivery, it is not a good rate. Prabhupāda: So, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . said that he'll send the contract form. So we have to see. Gurudāsa: If it does not include the delivery and the polishing . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . must include delivery, polishing, everything. Gurudāsa: If it does, it's good rate. Also this black marble, I've gotten the price in Makrana four, four rupees and fifty paisa. Prabhupāda: That is excluding labor. Gurudāsa: Yes. So if they can do it for five, it is good rate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: But if they do it five for just the marble, it is not good rate. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not good. It is included everything. That I was informed by . . . Gurudāsa: Then it's . . . then it is good. It is very good for us. Prabhupāda: Then we shall accept. Gurudāsa: Oh, yes. It is good quotation. But he is not willing to do the bank guarantee. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: The pound, the huṇḍa , what is it called? Prabhupāda: huṇḍi . Gurudāsa: huṇḍi . Prabhupāda: No. That we shall . . . he is not bringing all the goods at a time. Gurudāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Partially. We have to pay. Gurudāsa: All right. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want you to feel that we will do this, and this work, and spend frugally and thrifty. Prabhupāda: Very frugally. You have already become very unfrugal. Gurudāsa: I am agitated that you are anxious about it, because yes, I commit many mistakes, no doubt. Prabhupāda: So, that's all right. Don't commit more, that's all. Gurudāsa: Yes. But there's also some mistakes I have not committed. There's some very good things that have happened. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Don't commit mistake. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Devotee should not commit mistake. He's above it. Gurudāsa: But I want you to feel . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is my business to worry. Gurudāsa: Yes, yes. You are the best father I have. My father spared the rod. He spoiled me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: And you are not doing. Prabhupāda: But don't take, because I do not show the stick, don't take advantage of it. Gurudāsa: You have shown the stick, verbally. Prabhupāda: Now do it nicely. Keep me less anxiety. Gurudāsa: I want to do. Prabhupāda: It is natural when money is misspent, one who brings money he thinks this. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I take so much trouble, and then . . . that is, that is always . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Yes. I also would feel that way. Prabhupāda: So the money raised for the other business, that should be spent for that purpose. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the temple money . . . so you'll go to the bank tomorrow? Yes? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which bank he has dispatched the 50,000? Gurudāsa: Yes, Syndicate. Prabhupāda: But they have not yet informed. How is that? He said he has already sent. Gurudāsa: He has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Who? Gurudāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurudāsa: But the bank has not informed. Guṇārṇava is checking today. Prabhupāda: Telegrammed the money? Gurudāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed myself, directly . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: . . . that he has sent it. Prabhupāda: When he has sent it? Gurudāsa: Telegrammed yesterday . . . day before yesterday, evening. Prabhupāda: Day before yesterday. Gurudāsa: Evening. Prabhupāda: Evening. Gurudāsa: Late evening. Prabhupāda: So they must have received the money by today. Gurudāsa: Yes. Guṇārṇava is checking. (end) Conversation A -- February 13, 1974, Vrndavana (no audio, first part) Gurudāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurudāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: How many of you went? *Gurudāsa: Most everyone, about twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) (audio starts) *Gurudāsa: At first they went to the Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana*-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi , and then I left, at Madana-mohana. Dr. Kapoor came this morning? Prabhupāda: No. Gurudāsa: No? Śyāmasundara: All these boys and girls all went to sleep for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: (to guest) Thank you. You have come from where? Guest (1): Just now from the Hanumān Mandir , just down the road there, not far. But I'm . . . we're all from America. Prabhupāda: Here you are remaining there? Guest: We are there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Mohan?, a guesthouse just down to the right. Prabhupāda: Where is . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . he's delivering fruits and flowers. Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli. Prabhupāda: Nim Babari? Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask . . . he requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana , if you . . . if you wish. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible? Guest: I . . . I don't know. I'm just . . . he asked me to come and request it, so . . . Prabhupāda: We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested. Woman guest (2): There are thirty Westerners there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana . Prabhupāda: Thirty Westerners? Guest (1): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Oh. That, I have no objection, we can go,. . . (indistinct) . . . those are organizing. You are also staying? Woman guest (2): Yes. Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask. Gurudāsa: Do you have any . . . any other questions? Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment. Gurudāsa: You don't have to explain your presence you are most welcome. Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Where is the Deity? Devotee: Taking on saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: You get time, you can . . . Devotee: Saṅkīrtana , when you're ready. Gurudāsa: She (second woman guest) was attending all the lectures at the paṇḍāl in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen her. Gurudāsa: And Philadelphia also. Prabhupāda: So, you understand our philosophy? Woman guest (3): Understand . . .? Prabhupāda: Our philosophy? Guest (1): Philosophy. Woman guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Where? Woman guest (3): Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Woman guest (3): And we do the āratik and read all your books. Prabhupāda: Which book? Woman guest (3): *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, Lord Caitanya, *Kṛṣṇa Book* , and obviously . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke , with all the philosophers, and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them or . . . (indistinct) Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy. Gurudāsa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin. Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good. Śyāmasundara: They tried, but they weren't . . . they weren't God conscious. They were recording in their own poor? life . . . (indistinct) . . . the truth. The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure . . . figure it out with their mind. *Prabhupāda: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, in the Western countries, they have . . . lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider this body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize . . . (indistinct) . . . if your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata . . . Śrīmad Bhāgavata , it is said that yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ ( SB 10.84.13): "Anyone, considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." (to guests) What is your philosophy? You don't take this body as the self? Guest (1): I . . . oh, no. Prabhupāda: You? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: Very good. So who is bringing my bedding? Śyāmasundara: Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara? I don't know. Gurudāsa: I've got the keys to that room also. Śyāmasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements. Prabhupāda: (to guests) So, what is your philosophy? Guest (1): My philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān , is the one absolute existence, but it has a delusive power, whereby . . . Prabhupāda: Who is that got delusive power? Guest (1): God, or . . . Devotee: God? Guest (1): . . . the māyā , the māyā of God makes . . . makes a man identify himself with his body. But it is . . . that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes . . . it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are . . . he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace. Prabhupāda: By God's grace, what happens? Guest (1): One cannot . . . one achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's . . . one no longer identifies himself with his body. Prabhupāda: So result of loving God, what it is? Guest (1): Without loving God? Devotee: No. Result. Prabhupāda: Result is what? Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes. Prabhupāda: What will come? Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God. Devotee: What is that union? Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it . . . it's called yoga , or it's samādhi . I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read. Prabhupāda: Samadhi is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity? Guest (1): What is the form of unity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): I . . . my understanding is that, that, er, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving Prabhupāda: Beyond form. Guest (1): . . . through loving the form of God . . . it has form and yet it's formless. It's both . . . has form and formless. Prabhupāda: What is that formlessness, and what is that form? Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? (laughs) My own knowledge is just very slight. Prabhupāda: You are not learning there, where you are staying? Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja . . . this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest. Prabhupāda: But love, if you have no form, where to love? The air? Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti , you love the form of God. Prabhupāda: But you said it's formless. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the . . . Prabhupāda: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy? Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true. Prabhupāda: Then. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love? Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me. Prabhupāda: What does he teach? Guest (1): He said . . . Prabhupāda: He teaches form? Guest (1): He says that . . . yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānjī. Prabhupāda: Who is Hanumān? Guest (1): Hanumān is the breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guest (1): The breath of Rāma, śvāsa . Rāma*-ke-śvāsa , breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Breath? Guest (1): The breath. Hanumān was the . . . Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?" and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve You." Prabhupāda: That's so nonsense. Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know . . . Gurudāsa: When you remember who you are, you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela , his disciple, "I'm Nam Karoli." Guest (1): Nim Karoli. Gurudāsa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta , we're His servant. Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact. Gurudāsa: When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta . . . we should follow in his footsteps, "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee." Very humble. Then we can make advancement (CC Madhya 13.80). Guest (1): Mahārāja is teaching—you asked his teaching—these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve . . . Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself . . . Prabhupāda: You love? To whom you love? Guest (1): Whoever you're with. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): Whatever, whatever . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression? Guest (1): Well, certainly every being in the universe is a part of me. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . you can place your love to a particular person or particular community. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it mean you love the whole universe? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe? Guest (1): If I love America? Prabhupāda: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows. Guest (1): Ācchā . Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men . . . Prabhupāda: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance? Guest (1): You do your best. Prabhupāda: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love. Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is . . . Prabhupāda: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love. Guest (1): Well, certainly every . . . Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love . . . universe. He has contradicted . . . Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot love each being. That is my point. Śyāmasundara: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe. Śyāmasundara: She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. Prabhupāda: Then there is impure being and pure being? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it that a fact? Guest (1): Is that true? Prabhupāda: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being. Guest (1): It seems that way. Woman guest (3): The soul isn't impure. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality—purity of the soul. Guest (1): You love God. Prabhupāda: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul. Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): . . . to my eyes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure. Guest (1): That's very difficult. Guest (3): I don't know what you're saying. Prabhupāda: Huh? Woman guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul? Guest (1): He was asking . . . Prabhupāda: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure. Devotee: How can we distinguish? Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure; there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā . . . Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā , His power of delusion, He can . . . He makes you think . . . He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world. Prabhupāda: So where from the māyā comes? Guest (1): From . . . I don't know. I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā . Gurudāsa: You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned . . . Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance. Gurudāsa: Well, which is first? Guest (1): Which is first? Which—ignorance or what? Gurudāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance? Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it. Gurudāsa: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe you can explain that. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gurudāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant? Prabhupāda: We are. Gurudāsa: Yes. Guest (1): We are. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: As he said, when you forget, this ignorance. Guest (1): Yes. Gurudāsa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us? Prabhupāda: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance. Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness. Prabhupāda: He knows that. Guest (1): The sense of egoism, "I and me and mine," is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing. Prabhupāda: Then God and you are different, because you forget God, He . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa does not forget, and we forget, so there must be difference. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. So, to certain extent . . . Guest (1): Actually, that's the best attitude. Gurudāsa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said> "It seems," but we're saying "not seems" . . . Guest (1): That's because my . . . I've read so many things, some other types of philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now . . . (indistinct) . . . the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it? Guest (1): Yes, that follows. Prabhupāda: Then how you become ignorant? Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain. Prabhupāda: Everything is mystery. Guest (1): Is that your . . . is it a mystery? Gurudāsa: No. Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good. Someone has to. Gurudāsa: (indistinct) . . . to Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya , that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem: By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes. Śyāmasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer, then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own. Guest (1): No, you can't. Gurudāsa: Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the . . . we have the science of love of God. Many people say . . . the material scientists say "perhaps" or "about" 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came; five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship. Prabhupāda: This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God, but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant, in māyā ? So māyā becomes better than God. Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant . . . (indistinct) . . . God, how it happens? You said there is God. God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God He is, that He becomes ignorant sometimes? Gurudāsa: And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God. Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of māyā . He . . . Kṛṣṇa's pure. Gurudāsa: Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets. Gurudāsa: Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Now . . . that's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Why go to others? Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability. I've read the *Gītā* , the *Bhāgavatam* . Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says? What Kṛṣṇa says? If Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa? *Gurudāsa: He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So what has come? Prabhupāda: Reading is not, I mean to say . . . Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: . . . to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "There is no more greater truth than Me." Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), "I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. " So why should we go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Then you should take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy. Guest (1): "Where is Kṛṣṇa"? Prabhupāda: Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me. *Prabhupāda: No, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66): "You give up everything; just surrender unto Me." So if you surrender, who forbids you? But if you don't, that is your business. Guest (1): How does one surrender? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You do not know, then you have to learn from one who is surrendered. But the position is this: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me." You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: ". . . (indistinct) . . . now. Now, sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like, you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep me." That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field, when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, "Surrender." That means "If you like, kill me. I throw down my weapon." People accept it. That's all. So He is the Supreme. If He likes, He can kill me; if He likes, He can save me. So I am subordinate. How can . . . I can be equal with Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator? Devotee: Can't be. Guest (1): He is the Lord . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: (to guest) One thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless, beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first . . . Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: If he has read Bhagavad*-gītā , that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā (BG 14.27), "I am the resort of Brahman." So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "Even Brahman emanates from Me." And actually it is so. Just like the sunshine is emanating from the sun globe. Although the sunshine is universal, but still dependent on the sun globe. Guest (1): Of course, that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course. Prabhupāda: That's good. Gurudāsa: Very nice. Guest (1): I wouldn't try to say that. Gurudāsa: Very nice. Prabhupāda: Very good. He's a good boy. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śyāmasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose. That only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, being all pervasive. He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you expect, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī , somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is Messiah, somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order. Gurudāsa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight." That is not surrender. Guest (1): "I'll do whatever You want, but don't ask me to fight." *Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad*-gītā , he said: "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa, that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes," then this is unity. This is unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct, and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is disunity, and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over," that is unity. Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot . . . that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings, they existed before, now we are existing, and we shall exist in future." So that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise, your existence, mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be. Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask what is . . . what is God's ultimate goal? What is . . . why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations . . . *Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance: "All right, enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . ." and giving instruction also that "You enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again." Just like a father. Children wants to play in the field. "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. It is now time up . . ." they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right, enjoy." And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that, "Now you give up all these things. You have enjoyed . . . (indistinct) . . . can come back," then your . . . He created for you. Same example I always give: Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating? It is unnecessary, it's premature, construction in jail work." But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy, "All right, for you. You enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying, then Kṛṣṇa says that "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be happy." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda —to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say: "Mr. Such*-and-such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall remain, void? Guest (1): No, that's impossible. Prabhupāda: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. Guest (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you . . . (indistinct) . . . good boy. Come on, I . . . so, you have . . . you are old . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaya . (break) (end) Conversation -- February 14, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . even those who are farmers . . . (indistinct) . . . in India also. As soon as they get some education, they don't want to be a farmer. Gurudāsa: They're going to the cities. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be satisfied to become a petty clerk and get some very little income. They will be satisfied. They don't want to be . . . śūdra . That is the real śūdra . They are satisfied simply by eating, that's all. No ambition. *Gurudāsa: So somehow or other we have to attract some śūdras to our movement if we want to work self*-sufficiently. Prabhupāda: So for the time being, what is to be done? We shall take it, then we shall see, find out śūdra , offer better price. But we will require more land. *Gurudāsa: We will require a self*-sufficient. Not only land, but we require a self-sufficient community. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. *Gurudāsa: Because of Kali*-yuga. And also everyone in Vṛndāvana that I mention that we are planning to have gośala , everyone likes the idea. That will be very popular here. Gośala , everyone, their eyes become bright. Prabhupāda: Make at least gośala , keep cows. That is also profitable. Gurudāsa: Yes, maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: One or two men may simply take care of the cows. Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: And grow grass, let them pasture. Gurudāsa: Yes, and plant trees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Maybe we should do that. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we have to utilize the land; otherwise what is the use? Gurudāsa: No, of course. Prabhupāda: Suppose we invest one lakh of rupees. One lakh rupees means 10,000 rupees per annum, almost 800, 900 rupees per month, yes interest. So we must utilize it. From this monetary point of view, because they get bank interest, people are not very interested in land. Gurudāsa: But you can't eat money. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: You can't eat money. Prabhupāda: Ultimately that is the . . . (aside) What? (break) . . . somehow or other, but it must be properly utilized. Who will give me massage? Satsvarūpa: Oh, Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: So ask him. (break) . . . money. Gurudāsa: My point of . . . you can't eat money means that if it is in the bank earning interest . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: My point was if it is in the bank earning interest, we may die at any moment, so what is the point of in the bank? But if we have some land and utilizing it, it is a better investment. Prabhupāda: First you purchase, then we shall make program. For the time being, purchase. Actually that is money. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: When you sow it, it will bring more money. There will be no problem. Gurudāsa: In the old system, land and jewelry was riches. Prabhupāda: Jewelry for rich man, land for ordinary man. Land and food grains, that is money. So at our present status, how we can utilize this land? As grazing ground, money? Gurudāsa: Presently I think gośala is more practical. Prabhupāda: There is another gośala , they are not utilizing, Panchayat Gośala. Why don't you try for that? They can give it free, that we shall . . . "Give us it, we shall utilize it for Kṛṣṇa." Gurudāsa: We can try. Prabhupāda: Find out who is Panchayat. "If we do not use for gośala , then you can take it back. But we shall utilize it for gośala . So why don't you give us the land?" Attached to the temple, we maintain a gośala . Gurudāsa: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Still we shall require to grow some food for the cows, and nice water supply. Then you simply keep the cows there. They will eat and drink and remain here peacefully. Only one room for watching. Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) . . . he was complaining when I have last time . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Basudever yata boi, ini sob gras kore niyechen. (All the books of Basudeva, he has taken all that.) Dr. Kapoor: I think he had given him the books for distribution. He is distributing them. Prabhupāda: But he was to give one house and so many things, then he was to distribute them, whatever. Dr. Kapoor: Huh? Prabhupāda: Sunchilum, Basudev oikhane bari debe . . . (indistinct) . . . (I heard that Basudeva will be given one residential place there . . . (indistinct) . . .) (break) Bhagavān: . . . should we come back again. Prabhupāda: Apni ekbar asun amader oikhane. Paris. London. (You please come to all our places. Paris. London.) Indian Man: Radharani pathan amake. (Let Radharani send me.) Prabhupāda: Radharani pathabe. Khali kichu taka kharac korte hobe. Radharani pathaben. Amar mato ekjan adhamke pathalo! (Radharani will surely send you. Only you have to spend some money. Radharani will. She has sent an insignificant person like me.) Indian Man: Apnito Radharanir mission niye eschen. Kaj korchen to. (You have come for the mission of Radharani. You are working for that.) Prabhupāda: Apnio yaben to, mission niye yaben. (You will also go, with some mission.) Indian Man: So I said, Radharani . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: Also, in Vṛndāvana we are here to stay, no matter what the people say. Dr. Kapoor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Sob jagay te amader birodh. (We are facing opposition everywhere.) But we stay. Birodh tarpare matlab, lok bhangano . . . (indistinct) . . . kintu, yai hok theke ache. Gurubhairai yakhan . . . (indistinct) . . . oi asol, basic princlple ta holo himsa. Ei amader ekhane te esob holo, na holo . . . (indistinct) . . . Baro baro Maharaj ra sob, ar ei ekta cuno puti lok . . . (indistinct) . . . amader Madhav Maharaj to sunechi advertise koren double M.A. (Opposition, malice agenda . . . (indistinct) . . . anyways, that's alright. But when Godbrothers are . . . (indistinct) . . . but the main, basic principle is envy. That we couldn't make it happen like this . . . (indistinct) . . . they are such big big Mahārājas, and here is this tiny little fellow . . . (indistinct) . . . I heard that our Madhava Maharaja advertises himself to be a double M.A.) Dr. Kapoor: Ācchā . He is not a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: He is not a . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You do not know? Dr. Kapoor: No, I don't know. I think he is a graduate. Huh? He's not even a graduate? (Prabhupāda chuckles) I was told that he was a graduate long ago, you see, when I used to go to Calcutta, the Gauḍīya Maṭh there. Prabhupāda: Anyway . . . Dr. Kapoor: And Bon Mahārāja also has told he is a graduate. What is he? Prabhupāda: What is he? Dr. Kapoor: Bon Mahārāja, graduate? He is Karachi graduate. Prabhupāda: No, I don't think so. Anyway, so Falanite ata sota, bikr belay kac kola (Bengali proverb). (Shows off alot but when it is a question of working, then they are nothing.) Bon Mahārāja, eiye, ye boi likhechen, (Bon Mahārāja has written a book,) very important. Dr. Kapoor: Boi likhechen, onek guli boi likhechen, tar madhye likhechen 'ami Bhagavan darshan peyechi, ei lila darshan korechi, sei lila darshan korechi. Sei sob likhechen. (He has written a book, he has written many books. He has written in that book that, "I have got the darshan of the Lord, I have seen this pastime, that pastime." He has written all this.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā . Etato keu lekhe na. (No one has written this.) (break) Bhagavān: Before I came, we had one big festival in Geneva for two days, Saturday and Sunday. Each night over 500 people. It was nice. Geneva's not very big. Prabhupāda: Geneva is important town. Bhagavān: Important. Not very big, though. Prabhupāda: International town. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: When I was going to London from Bombay . . . no, no, when I was going to Switzerland, I think I stopped at Geneva. Bhagavān: Zurich. You were in Zurich. Prabhupāda: Zurich; before that I stopped at Geneva. I saw the airport, very big airport. Then I went Zurich. And from Zurich I went to some Mount St . . . Bhagavān: St. Hellish. (laughs) Prabhupāda: You have been there? You are right, St. Hellish . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: (laughs) Śyāmasundara. Prabhupāda: Yes, Śyāmasundara, "Oh, I have to . . ." He spent money for that. I thought, "It is hellish." (laughter) Always covered with snow. I could not get out. Two days I was imprisoned in that hotel room. But people go there. Yamunā: For health. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yamunā: For their health. Prabhupāda: What is the health there? But one wonderful I saw from there. Down 10,000 feet . . . (indistinct) . . . hill. Bhagavān: Mountain. Prabhupāda: Mountain, yes. Down I saw the railway is going on. (break) . . . has entered the sky. That is it. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and the railway is very nice. Not like Darjeeling. Dr. Kapoor: You have to leave just now? Prabhupāda: Yes. I was to leave this morning, but I was to eat Yamunā's cooking . . . (indistinct) . . . cooking. Cooking was very nice, but I had no appetite. Yamunā: Appetite. No appetite. Prabhupāda: From yesterday lost my appetite. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because I was massaging you from yesterday. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, that's not. It is Kṛṣṇa's grace to have less appetite, I think. Less sleep, less appetite, it is good. Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau . They conquered over, but I have not conquered it. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is reduced. Satsvarūpa: May I have the key to the almirah, put these books away? Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) You have got the duplicate key? So I can take this key? Gurudāsa: Yes, I've given it to Guṇārṇava just now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: I've given it to Guṇārṇava this morning, the duplicate. Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Yamunā: So I will not live in this place. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yamunā: I will not live in your house, but I will work here. Because there is some objection from the boys, a lady living here. Prabhupāda: Apnar sange er sange dekha hoyechilo? Hari Gosvai. (Did you meet that gentleman? Hari Gosvai.) Dr. Kapoor: Hari Gosvai er sange dekha hoyeche. (Yes I met Hari Gosvai.) Prabhupāda: Uni ki bolen? (What did he say?) Dr. Kapoor: Ki bolen mane . . . (Means nothing as such . . .) He did not attend that meeting. So he doesn't have any first hand information. Prabhupāda: Apni o to chilen, apni dekhen ni? (You were also there in that meeting, you did not see?) Dr. Kapoor: Na. (No.) They didn't invite me. Prabhupāda: Ta meeting ta kiser? (What was the meeting about?) Dr. Kapoor: All the gosvāmīs. A representative gathering of all the gosvāmīs. *Prabhupāda: All the gosvāmīs . . . (indistinct) . . . all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs? *Dr. Kapoor: No, not all Rādhā*-Ramaṇa gosvāmīs. The Rādhā-Damodara gosvāmīs are represented by . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: They were represented by . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī and Mahārāja . . . (indistinct) . . . Gosvāmī, but the gosvāmīs of the other temples. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Yamunā: Rādhā*-Dāmodara's were there? *Dr. Kapoor: Rādhā*-Dāmodara was there. Yes. *Yamunā: Yesterday Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī was little bit rude, yesterday. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? To you? Yamunā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Yamunā: He was angry because he had locked the door and locked me outside, and I knocked on the door until he came, and he was angry. He was a little rude. So I could tell something was wrong. Gurudāsa: Because usually he is not so rude. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurudāsa: Usually he is not rude. Yamunā: He is never harsh. He was a little harsh. I could tell something was wrong. Prabhupāda: So they are planning something. Dr. Kapoor: I don't know exactly. I've not been able to make out what their plans are exactly, because they don't tell me everything. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: They don't tell me everything. They have something up their sleeves. I don't know what. Gurudāsa: So what should be our . . . *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī, other time he was not harsh? Yamunā: Not to me. To Gurudāsa maybe, but never me. Prabhupāda: But this time he was harsh? Yamunā: Yes, very harsh. Prabhupāda: What did he say? Yamunā: He was yelling. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Yamunā: He was yelling, raising his voice. He wasn't speaking in a quiet tone, he was yelling at me, "Why you are disturbing my sevā*-pūjā by making me come to the door?" I said: "I am engaged in Vaiṣṇava sevā as well. Vaiṣṇava sevā and Kṛṣṇa sevā . You please excuse me." I was very courteous, but he was harsh. Prabhupāda: So he was on the door? Yamunā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana temple door? Yamunā: Yes, putting the wooden bolt so I can't come inside. Yesterday this was. After leaving here for pravacana and going there, he had locked the gate. Then I knocked until he came. *Prabhupāda: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī or Rādhā-Ramaṇa? *Yamunā: No, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. *Prabhupāda: So what business you have to go to Madana*-Mohana temple at that time? *Yamunā: Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī of Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. Prabhupāda: Ohhhh. Yamunā: Gaurachand's other side, where we live. *Prabhupāda: Ah, Madana*-Mohana Gosvāmī. I thought from Madana-Mohana temple. Yamunā: No. Prabhupāda: Well, what about this Gaurachand Gosvāmī? Yamunā: He is calling for Gurudāsa sometimes. We don't speak so much. I don't see him because he isn't doing worship for the Deity of Dāmodara any more. So he is quiet, stays in the background. I think he wants sometimes a little money. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yamunā: I think he is having a little difficulty with money, so he asks sometimes. Prabhupāda: Some help? Yamunā: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Does he? Gurudāsa: Not very often, sometimes. Yamunā: Otherwise we don't see so much. But now I find he moved from Dāmodara. Gurudāsa: The last time I saw him, he said he wants Panchu to work for us. He said he . . . Prabhupāda: So what he will work? What he will work? Gurudāsa: He says he will do anything. Prabhupāda: Anything, but what anything? What? Gurudāsa: Right now we have no work except construction. So what should I tell him when I see him? Prabhupāda: What about? Gurudāsa: If he asks what about Panchu working there? Prabhupāda: So what kind of work you can provide? Is there any work for him? Gurudāsa: Only now construction. Prabhupāda: The construction, what he will do? He has no experience. Now see this gosvāmī , worshiping Deity, now he has no worshiping job, "Give me construction work." Gurudāsa: When we start our Deity program, should we . . .? Prabhupāda: No, no. Gurudāsa: No paid? Prabhupāda: No pay, neither . . . he smokes. Gurudāsa: Suppose he will join us and shave head and give up bīḍīs , then he can . . . Prabhupāda: That will take six life. (laughter) Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante ( BG 7.19). It is not so easy. It is not so easy. To give up all these things, it is only by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But they are not meant for that. But for money's sake, business' sake, they can take any shape. That is another thing. At least they will not be able to give up bīḍīs . That is not possible. They may be gosvāmī for everything, not for bīḍī . Ki bolen? (What do you say?) Indian Man: Na, ta thik bolchen bate. (Yes, you are saying right.) Prabhupāda: Sob bisay te hote pare, oi . . . oi ta parbe na. Babajio tai. (They can do everything except that. Babaji is also like that.) Indian Man: Yodi Bhagavaner darshan pay, Bhagavan balen 'tumi ki cao balo', to bolbe amar kono bidita kharap korben na'. (If they got the Darshan of the Lord and the Lord asks them what do you want, then they will say: "Kindly don't damage this bīḍī .") (chuckles) Dr. Kapoor: So Prabhupāda, I have an engagement at 4:30. I came only to see you because Nirvāsi told me that you were leaving. Prabhupāda: Ta, asun apni. (Okay, goodbye then.) Gurudāsa: So is there any instructions about this gosvāmī business that you have? Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī business? What gosvāmī business? Gurudāsa: These gosvāmīs of Vṛndāvana that are agitated. Prabhupāda: No, I have not received any letter from them. Unless we receive a letter, how we can say anything? Dr. Kapoor: I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: I have told Purushottam Gosvāmī and the other gosvāmīs also that Prabhupāda is in a very conciliatory mood, and if you make a proper approach, he is prepared to make proper amends for whatever has been taken in bad . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: But the approach should be proper. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: The approach should be proper. Prabhupāda: Yes. You told him? Dr. Kapoor: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: I told him about the drafts, you see, that you made the other day. I said: "Prabhupāda has only agreed. It was so magnanimous of him, so magnanimous." *Prabhupāda: Yes, I told you Friday, you write, I shall sign it. And why they are agitating and stopped such a function? And that is very regrettable. Gosvāmī means vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegaṁ viṣaheta (Upadeśāmṛta 1). If there is some krodha , he should tolerate. Now here is a Vaiṣṇava, he has done so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the reception was there, and he stopped. How he is gosvāmī? He expressed his krodha in that very moment, just to take retaliation. It is not gosvāmī. What do you think? Krodha-vegam . It is a krodha , but he could not tolerate that krodha-vegam . *He retaliated at the right moment and to a person, fit person, who was to be honored. Just see. And he claims to be gosvāmī. The first business is vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegam . The Vaikuṇṭha mentality is that if one is serving—I have read it in Bhāgavata —Kṛṣṇa better than somebody else, he would simply appreciate that, "Kṛṣṇa has so much favored him. Oh, how fortunate he is. When I shall be able?" That is Vaikuṇṭha mentality. And the material mentality is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. How to cut down him?" That is material. This is the difference between Vaikuṇṭha mentality. So his business is how to cut down. So he is not a gosvāmī. At least I will not accept. What do you think? Am I right or wrong? Dr. Kapoor: Of course you are. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: What shall I say? (chuckles) *Prabhupāda: This is the definition of gosvāmī. Vāco vegam krodha*-vegam udaro-vegam pastha-vegam etān manasaḥ vegam , etān vegān viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). So he has not proved to be very dhīra . Dhīrādhīra-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau (Śrīnivāsa Ācārya). So that is my regret, that these people cannot appreciate the service of a Vaiṣṇava. They are simply personally interested. Personally interested is materialistic way of life. Everybody is personally interested. (break) Dr. Kapoor: I think after he returns he will do something. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Kapoor: He might do something after he returns. Prabhupāda: All right, we shall see to it. (end) Conversation -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana (Conversations with Sannyasis ) Śyāmasundara: . . . seeing how the money is spent, everything is going nice. It is organized, and everything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Management. Management means everything is in order; otherwise what is the use of assembling together? Śyāmasundara: If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes, though, it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets, but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I went to wake a devotee up. I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said: "Prabhu, you want to get up now? It's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake, but I . . . I went ahead and bathed, because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for āratik . So I said: "If you are not going to bathe, at least get out of bed and come to āratik . But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions? When you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by . . . by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is next, then you can say: "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply "Wake up, wake up, wake up," "All right, I'm waking up . . . (indistinct) . . ." But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the āratik . Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the . . . up into the temple for the āratik , so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik . Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask to leave. Yes. Not that fighting. Hayagrīva: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: I just want to say one thing, that this . . . then I'll leave, because this is a meeting of the management here. But I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I'm concerned, that was very . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) That I have . . . (indistinct) . . . later. Hayagrīva: That was very cruel. It looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. It looked criminal. So, I don't think, uh . . . if it happened to me I would sue, if that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That's not good, under any circumstance. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That was not a very . . . (indistinct) *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like this. So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask: "When he is coming . . . (indistinct) . . .?" As soon as it is five, immediately I ask. So there may be more persons, but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is sleeping, the kīrtana is going on, or morning prayer is going on, so he maybe said that: "If we sleep like that, then you cannot do it." Devotee: I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why did you . . . off something, pour water on his body? Devotee: Simply to wake him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Aggressively. Prabhupāda: So, best thing was to say that he is not in good shape; say to me that he is incorrigible. And I could have asked him . . . (indistinct) . . . he would have finished. He may give one day, once, twice - if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also . . . the police said that, when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four . . . (indistinct) . . . nobody." What can I answer? Devotee: How can he say that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: Now here is the . . . (indistinct) . . . he says that nobody rises early in the morning. Just like yourself. Śyāmasundara: But he is rising. Devotee: I am, I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others! Pañcadraviḍa: Some others are rising. Not . . . not all, but some of them are rising. Śyāmasundara: The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That's their job. That's why you've taken . . . Prabhupāda: But that should be observed, and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who will continually disobey, he should be respectfully asked, "Please go." You cannot . . . that . . . Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to say to somebody, "Please go," though? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to tell a person, "Please go"? We don't know who. I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the . . . Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Śyāmasundara: Yes it does. In US . . . Acyutānanda: No, no it doesn't. They do not respect sannyāsīs . (devotees all talk at once) Śyāmasundara: Because you may not deserve it, then. Acyutānanda: Now I'm getting so . . . the thing is, they may say like that, but behind my back people are talking, saying this . . . Prabhupāda: Now if they do not also obey the orders of the sannyāsī , then naturally . . . but that thing should be brought to the notice of higher, or some official, president. Then steps should be taken that, "If you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave." It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī , leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations, and then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times, "Please leave." Like that. Śyāmasundara: If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected. Acyutānanda: Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one . . . Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to other center. Acyutānanda: I wanted to ask him to leave, but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not . . . then he must leave. That is . . . if you are making so much preaching, why, to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason you ask, that is not . . . Devotee: This was not a paltry reason. Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and . . . that is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something is being wrong . . . he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our work. Śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ . By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my . . . (indistinct) . . . because they are . . . they are . . . you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu . It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu . That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible . . . after trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be . . . "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Pañcadraviḍa: Engage him. *Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say: "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money. What can be done? But I don't think that if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required . . . (indistinct) . . . after all, human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya (Lord Caitanya). We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep . . . (indistinct) . . . how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere , first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me just like I , I . . . (indistinct) . . . this way. We have to do like that. Not that I "Comand, you do this. Oh, you cannot do? Get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for teaching, and that teaching means one should behave himself nicely. He cannot say that, "You do not . . . (indistinct) . . ." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda*-kumāra, you. He was accusing you; you were accusing him. I heard from . . . (indistinct) . . . so you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take . . . of course in some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is preferred . . . otherwise, regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country; otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water, sunshine. Whatever little warm it becomes, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise, everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service by six o'clock or five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should know everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real benefit. See in the early in the morning. So many parties come. *Śyāmasundara: From three*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself, and others will follow. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning. We have got our duties. *Śyāmasundara: Just like yesterday, Dvija*-hari came over and he said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean over at Keśi-ghāṭa. So I said: "Well there are so many sannyāsīs there. Ask them to organize a cleansing party." He said: "Oh, no one will clean. They don't want to do it." So . . . Prabhupāda: Why not some . . . some people clean like this, you have to get cleaning . . . (indistinct) Acyutānanda: . . . (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: If they won't, then you show them how. You . . . you do it also. Acyutānanda: . . . because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group, and it left for other parties. Śyāmasundara: No, but I am just saying, there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it because they are following your examples. Acyutānanda: I'm cleaning my room; I'm cleaning outside also. I don't . . . seen it. Śyāmasundara: I'm not criticizing, I'm just . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done, you should be followed like that, that āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . This should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly. Then it will be . . . everyone should remain cleansed, everyone should rise early in the morning, begin to work, comes to . . . everyone routine work. So then you can ask them, "Why you are not trying? Why you are not . . ." Then he will accept . . . (indistinct) . . . but this principle should be followed, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya . Is it not? Acyutānanda: Yes. Well, for myself in particular, I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā , then the tunes are māyā . They have . . . behind my back I hear all kinds of things they are saying. So nobody takes my words seriously. Even though I may quote from any scripture right, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is that māyā ? Songs are māyā ? Acyutānanda: As soon as I left Calcutta, then all the bhajanas , they are all, "Oh, that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then, "Okay, the songs are alright, but the tunes are poison." Now how can I overcome that? Pañcadraviḍa: I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta. You wrote . . . he came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said . . . and he had signed a letter something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja." And you wrote back, "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say 'Guru Mahārāja' we always say name, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in . . . as vague 'Guru Mahārāja.' " So we were singing, jaya prabhupāda, jaya gurudeva , and he was saying, "Well, that is impersonalist." *Acyutānanda: Also he says: " Nitāi*-gaura haribol , that is also . . . that's māyā ." So, what is that? Pañcadraviḍa: And so he was saying that all these bhajanas , they are . . . they are not bona fide, because they are, have . . . Prabhupāda: He said: " Gaura haribol is not bona fide?" Who said, bona fide? Pañcadraviḍa: Oh, not that. He was saying jaya gurudeva, jaya prabhupāda , that is not good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I said, was saying, that is not good, jaya gurudeva , because it does not say who, it just says gurudeva . It could be any gurudeva . So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was criticizing? Pañcadraviḍa: Bhavānanda. Because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalist to the letter. Acyutānanda: So it means I am a Māyāvādī, that's what it means. Pañcadraviḍa: Well . . . Śyāmasundara: It's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual, specific things. Acyutānanda: That overall I'm a Māyāvādī. Devotee: I find an overall bad atmosphere in India. Resentment against many of the devotees. Party politics and different things like that are going on. It's not limited, it's going on all over India. Acyutānanda: That's so . . . Devotee: Very heavy. *Śyāmasundara: Just like with . . . just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has the respect of everyone now, because he is doing such a good job of managing, and he's just, he's doing, he's performing nicely his devotional work, and he's getting some results. That's respect. Then you'll get respect. Bali*-mardana Mahārāja, he's built up ISKCON Press 'till it's just like (snaps fingers) that, and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he's performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say: "Oh, the atmosphere's bad . . ." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated paramahamsa . We are all trying. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some discrepancy here and there. So generally with our . . . general rules are . . . (indistinct) . . . common. First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and be ready for our performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there. Pañcadraviḍa: In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige, because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America, where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early. Anything that interferes with them doing as . . . exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on a level of sense gratification, and that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa . Prabhupāda: This is a fact. So how to correct it? If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct? Pañcadraviḍa: Well we . . . many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense and if you try to stop them, they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things. And that is separatism because it's not in . . . falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is . . . that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place. *Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract. When people are attracted by seeing your behavior, they are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are . . ." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere : we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be effective. Another—this is general principle—now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing, that Keśi*-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property all this be dropped? What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now . . . because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed; otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless . . . and that means there must be sufficient bank balance, such a big temple. Devotee: I don't . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but . . . Prabhupāda: At the present it is not. Devotee: It's so big. It's so big. Devotee (2): Most of the quality of people that are there are . . . less people of a higher quality in a smaller place, it would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still the work would go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this what with we're having right now. I could avoid it completely because I was . . . there was nobody there to cause it—all new people. Śyāmasundara: Everybody here knows everything. (laughter) Like . . . Devotee (2): And it goes up very quickly, because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage, and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time, but it would be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here, and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is your suggestion? Devotee (2): That we start a small center and then develop it gradually, with less . . . with less inexperienced people . . . Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (3): Well, we're not saying that it . . . he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point. Devotee (2): At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave. Our visas will be taken away, and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a . . . it is not a . . . it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already—Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage . . . Prabhupāda: At Singapore our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): This has happened. Devotee (3): There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know. Prabhupāda: That Singapore, legally our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: They wouldn't even let you in. *Devotee (3): I think that his point . . . I think we spoke about this in Manila, was that anywhere in the world, in, as a general policy, from what I've experienced, is that if one or two people are sent to an area, or are in an area, and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti*-yoga, engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that that has more effect than . . . Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's more successful. Devotee (3): . . . than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong who's doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to get strong for myself; I have to, you know, start from scratch. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I know the difficulty they're having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it's more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations . . . Devotee: Right. Śyāmasundara: . . . they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): And if the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti . It can't be a negative ass thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person. Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees? Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta. We have our base in Bombay. Those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating this property. Devotees: No, no. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know . . . if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): . . . then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally. Śyāmasundara: Of course, if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available. Devotee (3): I don't think we need to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (3): I think that if we . . . if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp . . . we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (3): If we have devotees then . . . Śyāmasundara: That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it, really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all . . . we have seen that all over India. They have giant temples, but no . . . Prabhupāda: No management. Devotee (2): No management. Pañcadraviḍa: As far as the men, since I think a lot are even . . . some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the States. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually . . . since in the States, you've divided the States into territories, and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers, because the men will actually be desired. Śyāmasundara: That's a good idea. Prabhupāda: That's good. So you make like that. Śyāmasundara: That's what . . . didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are . . . Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four . . . twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Śyāmasundara: But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes. Prabhupāda: That is already divided: Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge, they could say which men they wanted to keep, and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project. And if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee (3): Yes. Śyāmasundara: Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad, and we can ask him to do it. Prabhupāda: Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak, and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī , one of the biggest sannyāsīs , Gangeshvara, he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource; men and money he has. Immense resource. Śyāmasundara: We have to be careful not to . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: . . . not to offend these people, the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: . . . spiritual leaders. Prabhupāda: So, not offense. There is no question of offending. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing, that is . . . (indistinct) . . . you cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything . . . everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible, even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everybody. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end) Conversation A -- March 16, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . come with me? American guest: Yes. When I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is your program now? American guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town, and I was down the street and I saw Gurudāsa, so I said . . . I went over and said hello to him. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: And he . . . he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you. Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli, how do you know him? American guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Ram Das? You know Richard Alpert? Prabhupāda: Oh, Balarāma, he was here. Devotee: Baba Ram, Baba Ram. Devotee (2): Baba Ram Das. Prabhupāda: Oh, Baba Ram. Tomar khabar diyeche? (They gave you food?) (break) American guest: . . . that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Ram. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center, Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And people are also almost Indian standard. American guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same . . . opposite side of the world, like this. *Prabhupāda: Anti*-point. *American guest: Yes. And, uh, some . . . there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā*-kālī. *Prabhupāda: Worship Mahā*-kālī? *American guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpents' heads. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: You know, two serpents' heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls. Prabhupāda: Oh, skulls. American guest: Skulls. *Prabhupāda: They're . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahā*-kālī. *American guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Prabhupāda: That is worship. That is religion? American guest: Well, before, when the Spanish were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: Name is Papinque. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth. Prabhupāda: Your parents live in Mexico City? American guest: No, not Mexico City . . . (indistinct) . . . region. I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Oh American guest: On the street Puerto. But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time. Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: They're also vegetarians now. Prabhupāda: Acchā ? In Mexico they are vegetarians? American guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this . . . these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians. Gurudāsa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from? American guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know . . . (break) American guest: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health is not very good. I am not cent percent. Devotee: So much time . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Prabhupāda: This we will take more, it will not harm. But the other, if you take little less . . . (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . ghee . Most . . . (indistinct) . . . New Zealand. In Mexico also? No. American guest: There is good butter. Prabhupāda: Butter? American guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Many flowers eh? There are so many flower stall. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there in Mexico there is . . . in Mexico where I saw "Mahatma Gandhi." Devotee: That was in Mexico. Gurudāsa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahatma Gandhi. Prabhupāda: There in the city. I saw Mahatma Gandhi Street. American guest: Hmm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's . . . (break) Prabhupāda: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahatma Gandhi. (break) American guest: From that illness you had when you came to India . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. American guest: When you were recovering from your stroke? Prabhupāda: Oh. American guest: I think you looked in better health then. Prabhupāda: When I was . . . American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Since then I have no stroke. American guest: You still have massages every day? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda, one day . . . (break) What philosophy you are following? American guest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Which philosophy you are following? American guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and, uh, Vedānta and, uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He also teaches Kṛṣṇa? American guest: Uh, he teaches, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Buddha. American guest: Buddha. Buddhism. Prabhupāda: So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy? American guest: Well, it's just a different, uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too. Prabhupāda: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God. American guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy. American guest: The approach is different, yes. Prabhupāda: Hmm? American guest: The approach is different. Prabhupāda: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy? American guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I . . . but, uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to, uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was . . . he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said: "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?" Prabhupāda: Achieved? American guest: Achieved. You know—attained. Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh. American guest: And, uh, then he started to say: "Well, if they believe in an external God," or something like that, "then it is heretical." I says: "But nevertheless," I says: "uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?" So then he argued. He finally says . . . well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if . . . if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different. Prabhupāda: If the approach is different . . . suppose if the approach is to fire. The approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience will be there? American guest: Well . . . Prabhupāda: If you actually approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal—it is fire—you will experience heat and light. American guest: We are, approaching means . . . Prabhupāda: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light? American guest: Yes, but what are we approaching? Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: What are we approaching? Prabhupāda: That you have to explain. American guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: We say . . . American guest: The Absolute. Prabhupāda: We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities—therefore you know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same. American guest: Well, I know your philosophy, 'cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your, uh . . . you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa , but I think that ultimately it's, uh . . . Prabhupāda: I can . . . I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa . That is the difficulty. I can explain my position, but you cannot explain your position. American guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position? Prabhupāda: Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa . American guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness. Prabhupāda: Then where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa ? Nirvāṇa means finished. American guest: Uh, yes. I think that . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void. American guest: Etymologically it means "No wind." Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: "No wind." Prabhupāda: No wind? American guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "No wind." There's no wind. Prabhupāda: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished. American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa . Devotee: (to guest) You want some more vegetables and purīs ? Prabhupāda: Give him. More, more. American guest: Not more. Devotee: Yes. American guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: If there's an extinguishing . . . Prabhupāda: So if the desire is extinguished, then what you are? American guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire, it's transforming of desire. Like this is one . . . Prabhupāda: That is not extinguishing. American guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the, uh, flame of, uh . . . Prabhupāda: That we say. You don't extinguish desire, but we purify desire. That is our . . . but that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished. American guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either, but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that . . . Prabhupāda: Transformed to what? American guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other, uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else. Prabhupāda: Then it is not nirvāṇa . It is purification. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa . Just like . . . American guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa . Prabhupāda: You mean, but the word nirvāṇa . . . suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I . . . Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Devotee: Gopāla wants to see you. (break) Prabhupāda: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa . But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is purification. Suppose cataract, cataract operation. American guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, of the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just, uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means. Prabhupāda: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary. American guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as . . . as it's used, you know, in, uh, by, by the people who are using this word to . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained—this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit— nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning. American guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa ? American guest: Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, uh, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system. Prabhupāda: The life symptoms? American guest: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Symptoms of life? American guest: In this system. Prabhupāda: System? What is that system? American guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is that practically? American guest: The practical result? Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: The practical result is, uh . . . I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different. *Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru ( BG 18.65). It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. American guest: So that is . . . Prabhupāda: To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa—this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the . . . American guest: So that if you . . . Prabhupāda: . . . those who Buddhist, they do not know. (guest laughs) They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe. American guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware . . . Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our . . . our philosophy, understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe. American guest: No, they've rejected the *Vedas* . Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say. American guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up . . . to argue sect against sect. *Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we . . . (indistinct) . . . we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa har e (Gīta-govinda). We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam (Jayadeva Gosvāmī). So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their understand. American guest: Now how, how, how . . . why would Buddha want to cheat people? Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says: "What I say, you believe." That means he is cheating them. American guest: He didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Huh? American guest: Buddha didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Then why do you . . . why do you study Buddha philosophy? American guest: Well, he said: "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth," but what Buddha said . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Buddha philosophy . . . American guest: What Buddha said was, he says: "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places." He says: "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others." Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha. American guest: Huh, but . . . Prabhupāda: But . . . American guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more, uh, of an independent approach. He's not, uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody, but he was trying to . . . Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you . . . I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it required. American guest: Cheating, yeah. Tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad. American guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that, "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest . . ." Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for . . . American guest: ". . . leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that, uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly. *Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura*-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the . . . (indistinct) . . . they did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want Brahman . . . (indistinct) . . . but you come in a different place. So Brahman is there, but I am thinking it is not Brahman. Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha, exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) (end) Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: . . . a disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious . . . (indistinct) . . . is an opiate of . . . they call? It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana . To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will not patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls, and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come, then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for . . . I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and . . . Indian man: Signatures of them. *Prabhupāda: Many thousand, many lakhs . And this is one point . . . and we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad*-gītā , that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna ( BG 7.16). Bhajana, bhajante , this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ . And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ , miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious men, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā , and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as . . . it is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). These are the symptoms of mahātmās . So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā ? And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām : always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is . . . you come forward. You are all educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul . . . your culture. It is not 'your,' 'our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the . . . (indistinct) . . . kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana , one become free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra , and we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to make propaganda. And let them come, at least, Sunday morning. And . . . (referring to fan) It is roaming like this? Indian man: Eh? Prabhupāda: It is revolving? Devotee: (indistinct) . . . Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita. Indian man: I think we can also fix it. Prabhupāda: No, revolving is . . . Indian man: You want revolving? Is it on? Devotee: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good, though. *Prabhupāda: What, this will be propaganda, and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that, "Here the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signature. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective if sent. Indian man: . . . jī? May I submit a matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Indian man: This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends, and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat*-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and, on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by . . . of our reconsidering, we lose nothing. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: By writing them a petition. Prabhupāda: But if . . . it has no effect. Indian man: I don't say it has no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider, because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice . . . Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to go; public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance; essential. Indian man: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people, that the bhajanas and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat*-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras . *Indian man: So therefore . . . you see, the authors of the śāstras . . . śāstra big authors, who are good so*-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras , but the government, which is so-called secular or pro-Muslim and pro-Communist . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your own śāstra . Indian man: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not . . . Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court. Indian man: Therefore . . . I'm coming round that. What I say on the prima facie , the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is flowing. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The petition was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck, and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of decision, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was . . . I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said: "Maybe." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said: "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that, "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. "It may be." That means the option is equally open, "May not be," also. That's only a review has been taken without any basis of that . . . Prabhupāda: That is your second item. Indian man: And our . . . I'll finish, I'm coming on that. Now, third is, is the Constitution rights. Now, under the Constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the Constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal, it is not for any sector. Prabhupāda: (referring to fan) It is not moving like that, revolving? Satsvarūpa: No, the other one is not working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Indian man: I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, alright. But make it full force. This is full? Yaśomatīnandana: This revolves, but I don't know how. Prabhupāda: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There . . . there is no Indian. Indian man: That's what will come in the way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: That will come in the way. That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians. Prabhupāda: No, "You should have," but no Indians are coming. Indian man: No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know. Prabhupāda: No, we cannot appoint. That is not . . . that is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless. Indian man: Paid . . . appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them. Prabhupāda: So who is honorary coming? They are also honorary, but who is dedicating . . . Indian man: So you should have in India those people . . . Prabhupāda: "I should have" means you, if you become "Should have." Otherwise . . . Indian man: I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody . . . *Prabhupāda: Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian*-educated youths are come? They are not interested. Indian man: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some . . . *Prabhupāda: Then that . . . no, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the . . . but in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes, that if they make it without . . . just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that . . . there, they understand that these Americans making this satyagraha , as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty*-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that, "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out." Indian man: Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners, because that will be against them. What I was meaning to . . . they should be . . . Prabhupāda: That should be taken. Therefore I say hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll . . . Indian man: No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians. Prabhupāda: No, organize . . . they have actually come to me. They are attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are . . . just like in Africa, they are junglis . Indian man: Uncivilized. *Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India, where the civilization is supposed to be so . . . and actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that, " Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what . . . how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā . It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti . . . (BG 7.16) Gandhi was chanting in temple raghupati rāghava . So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana , take prasāda , and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and . . . I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā . And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance. Essential, we want it. And the other thing, we are making gate in and out two gates . . . submit a plan like that, that this is . . . there will be no . . . that may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architect, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come . . ." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasāda , and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. But then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha , and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so. Indian man: Yes, Rajasthan. *Prabhupāda: Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come, and we are firing. And the . . . your sva*-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government. Indian man: One has to snatch the justice from them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Not by begging our mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people what they have done. All they have got this liberty, or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise, the government has the majority in the assembly. Congress Party has a majority . . . (indistinct) . . . how they will be able to desolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be desolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, unconstitutional method has been adopted because they . . . Prabhupāda: And they have smashed the speaking. Indian man: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: The Hindustan people lied doing that. Indian man: Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty. Prabhupāda: What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the . . . Indian man: And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall. Indian man: Yes. A big halls or a paṇḍal as we had held two years back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Indian man: I don't know how you have got the sanction. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: And there the people can come in the thousands and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already said. Indian man: . . . on the neighboring stand, we should raise . . . *Prabhupāda: No, we request them that, "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not . . . why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā . What is the . . .? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands. Indian man: Last year or two years back, we had maidān and same playground . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Make that. Let them have saṅkīrtana . Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a . . . "Better late than never." But this propaganda should be done. (break) Now . . . now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple place hundred chairs so that many people cannot stand; they will sit comfortable without . . . with the . . . with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasāda , whatever you can, "Please take prasāda ." Give him plate. Make this way. Indian man: What I was saying apart from all that . . . in my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a Life Member. But as a Life Member I can help on the police commissioner also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: In writing, I can help on the police commissioner. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Indian man: Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a Life Member of our relation. Prabhupāda: No, not as our lawyer. Indian man: That . . . no, I say . . . Prabhupāda: On your personal capacity. Yes. Indian man: I say. Prabhupāda: Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that. Indian man: "As a Life Member, I am suffering because of this reason, that if there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually." Prabhupāda: No, you can go to other temple. Indian man: No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied? Prabhupāda: Then you are spiritually not improving. Indian man: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Then you are not spiritually improving. Indian man: No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them. Prabhupāda: That is not very strong reason. Indian man: No, but what I say, they may be strong, but I say I am stronger than them. Prabhupāda: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the . . . Indian man: No, no. I . . . Prabhupāda: . . . that your idea means our idea, carried. Indian man: Not necessarily. (break) Prabhupāda: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion. Indian man: Certainly, it's my honest opinion. Prabhupāda: But the thing is, I want to do something solid. Indian man: No, but what I say is my . . . Prabhupāda: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much. Indian man: No, but, uh, I am hopeful. Prabhupāda: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that . . . Indian man: Unless they have got some . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: The . . . (indistinct) . . . Delhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi. Yaśomatīnandana: Delhi. Indian man: You see, if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans . . . Prabhupāda: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs. Indian man: But if they will logically . . . Prabhupāda: Logic—there is no logic. Indian man: No, but what I say . . . if they are appeased . . . Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword. Indian man: No, but what I say . . . the basic problem is that the central against, if the Delhi government is against . . . Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against. Indian man: If the Delhi government is against, therefore they are . . . they are not disclosing their weakness. Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that . . . many politicians have said. In London, the High Commissioner, he said: "Swāmījī, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharashtrian, Pant. Pant. So . . . but we cannot do anything of this way. Indian man: No, but if the central is against, then my logic says . . . Prabhupāda: Central is against. Indian man: If the central is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi? Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man: Then how we have got a permission in Delhi? Prabhupāda: What is that permission? Indian man: Temple permission building. Yaśomatīnandana: We don't have . . . we haven't built a temple in Delhi. Indian man: We don't have a temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man: Then what about the permission in the Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Māyāpur, that doesn't require any permission. Indian man: What? Prabhupāda: That doesn't require any permission. That is the village. Indian man: Ācchā . And what about this Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: That also, they gave permission with great difficulty. Indian man: Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad, I do not know. Yaśomatīnandana: Hyderabad is easier, because the people are very much in favor of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year, Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city is so . . . formerly, it was planned that, "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there. Indian man: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena? Prabhupāda: That is very good. Indian man: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner, from breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: But one thing is . . . my fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go." Indian man: (indistinct) . . . India. Prabhupāda: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka ? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why . . . they will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals svāmīs have told them, "Yes . . ." Indian man: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Indian man: As you rightly say, that if we do anything actively, then they may see your boys going out of India, foreigners, Americans. Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us. Indian man: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground, and they will say that, "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons. Prabhupāda: Any reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you." Indian man: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, or try to get another places, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys. Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda—preach. Indian man: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them. Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting. Yaśomatīnandana: We are not going to preach against them. Indian man: No, no, here . . . Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy. Indian man: No, but then your philosophy is only, you see . . . you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking the signatures. Thousands. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh, yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say . . . Indian man: Even though you do not say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals. Yaśomatīnandana: So then they . . . Indian man: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India." Yaśomatīnandana: But it's clear agitation. If we have . . . satyagraha . Indian man: (indistinct) . . . the propaganda is also part of the agitation no? Propaganda of collecting the signatures . . . (break) Yaśomatīnandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with . . . Prabhupāda: Who is arranging for this higher level? (aside) Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? Eh? But you do not know. This, you . . . (indistinct) . . . never close . . . (end) Conversation -- March 27, 1974, Bombay (Video 03:09) Prabhupāda: So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position. Pañcadraviḍa: Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained . . . *(aside) . . . that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : This jagad is avyakta , imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said: "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? (break) *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . because I have heard so many of these so-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gītā or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, how they can explain? *Bhava*-bhūti: They don't have an inkling. *Prabhupāda: They cannot touch even Bhagavad*-gītā . They have no qualification. *Bhava*-bhūti: : They have no understanding. *Prabhupāda: Their speaking of Bhagavad*-gītā is artificial. *Bhava*-bhūti: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto 'si . One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad*-gītā . *Bhava*-bhūti: Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī"s asrama . . . Prabhupāda: Mmm, mmm. *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized. Prabhupāda: Maybe (laughs). Indian man: Jaya . Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that? Viśākhā: Without a doubt. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa *Indian woman: Hum Shimla gaye. Hum to town me aise hi thoda ghum rahe the, to waha thoda thak gaye the, rest karne lag gaye. Idhar Brahmananda Swami, do hi to the, bas thoda lecture shuru ho gaya. Abhi baithe to kehne lage - kaun hai sannyasi maharaj, ye*-wo. Bas batein chalti-chalti, kiske follower hai? Ye A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ji ke hai. Kaha, ye kya, bhakti . . . abhi minto ke andar itna jan waha ikattha ho gaya, ke bas ye log apni-apni baat baat to kar rhe the lekin un sab ke daant Brahmananda Swami je ne aise khatte kar diye, tab wo itne please, request, sorry . . . ye wo karne lage ki humne jo apke samne kuch bhi kaha hai, hum knowledge nahi rakhte, humko shama karna aur hum ye chahte hai ke aap humare yaha ake program dijiye. Humare paas to time hi nhi tha, hum ek din to rahe hai waha lekin wo itne icchuk the ki abhi humare yaha zarur program rakhiye, humko . . . jo apne knowledge pai hai, hum bhi chahte hai ki hum bhi usko grahan kare aur humare bacche, humare ye Shimla log, sab usko prapt kare. Yaha tak humne . . . ek uncle hai mere waha, unko keh kar ayi hun ki waha ek church hai bilkul top ke upar. Maine bola ki koi lene wala na ho to uski baatchit karke rakhna, phir baat karenge ake. To unko keh kar hi aye hai. Wo church agar mil jaye to bahut . . . (We had gone to Shimla and as we were taking a tour of the city, we became very tired. Thus we sat down to rest while Brahmananda Swami started a lecture. Immediately people started asking - who is this sannyāsi Mahārāja, whose follower is he etc. I told them that he is the disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Within minutes, a huge crowd gathered and they started challenging him with various questions but Brahmananda Swami defeated them so expertly that they had to beg forgiveness from him. They admitted their ignorance and asked him to organize a program in Shimla so that everyone including their children could receive the knowledge that Brahmananda Swami possessed. I even went to the extent of requesting my uncle to negotiate with the owners of a dilapidated church on a hilltop so that we can try to acquire it in the future. If we can get that church, it would be great . . .) *Bhava*-bhūti: : We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras . The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas . We have to get a special police permission. Prabhupāda: Where? *Bhava*-bhūti: All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance. Prabhupāda: Where? *Bhava*-bhūti: In Hrisikesa, Hardwar. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhava*-bhūti: So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama , special permission. Prabhupāda: Which asrama ? What is that asrama ? Devotee: Which asrama ? *Bhava*-bhūti: Any asrama . Gītā Bhavan . . . Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bhava*-bhūti: . . . Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama . They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis , their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra . Therefore, we can understand that what you're speaking is being realized in the heart because it's creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance. *Indian woman: Hum is baar Kumbh ke mele par gaye the, humne apna ek program sabne milkar kiya hai. Kabhi sab jate hai to bahut accha program hone wala tha. Bahut kuch, bahut badhiya advertisement ho jani lekin kuch minister gaye huye the. Hum jo gaye the, hum to do*-tin devotee the jo gaye. (We went to the Kumbha-melā this time and collectively organised our own program. It could have been very nice with wonderful advertisements but some ministers were present there at that time. We were only a couple of devotees . . .) (break) *Prabhupāda: So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. (break) But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains, and pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Is it not a fact? *Bhava*-bhūti: Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's a fact. Prabhupāda: The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian? *Bhava*-bhūti: No. Prabhupāda: It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra , When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is (laughing) every, feeling . . . if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way . . . Kya ji, aise ho sakta hai kya? (Tell me, is it possible?) . . . simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break) (end) Interview -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: . . . I shall speak? Mahāṁśa: First His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Śrīla Prabhupāda will speak something about our philosophy for a few minutes, and then you can ask questions. Prabhupāda: Yasya —anyone; asti —one, anyone who has; bhagavati —in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; *akiñcanā*-bhakti —unalloyed devotion, faith; *sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ —with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ : if one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities. So at the present moment, the godless civilization. Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of *Mahābhārata* that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge. Because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life. *In the śāstras we see that Ṛṣabhadeva, the father of Mahārāja Bharata, under whose name this planet is called Bhārata*-varṣa, He taught His one hundred sons, "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working hard like cats and dogs for sense gratification." Ultimate end is sense gratification, satisfying the senses. This is the business of the cats and hogs, or dogs and hogs. The hog is whole day working to find out stool: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he gets some stool, little strength, immediately sex life, without any discrimination whether she is mother or sister or daughter. This kind of life is described in the śāstras as hog civilization. So at the present moment, without any reference to God consciousness, people are being taught to satisfy the senses, work very hard, and ruin the chance of human life. *This human life is specially meant for solving all the problems of life. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam . . . (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā . Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youthhood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of bodies, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. *But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ . And there are so many different varieties of bodies. *There are nine lakhs varieties of life in the water. Similarly, twenty lakhs varieties of life in the trees and plants. Then there are insects, then there are birds, then there are animals, then there is human being. So this human form of body is obtained after evolution of many millions and trillions of years. It should not be . . . this is a chance for stopping this business of repetition of birth and death. But people, they have no knowledge how to stop it. Although everything is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , everything is explained, but we are not utilizing. We are manufacturing our own concocted knowledge. Therefore we are suffering. If we read Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then all the solution of human society's problem are there. Economic, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical—everything is there. *So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for spreading the knowledge contained in the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, without any malinterpretation. Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). After understanding Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna affirmed, "Kṛṣṇa, You are Para-brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Brahman . . . every living entity is Brahman, or everything is Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is a fact. But Para-brahman is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the Vedic version. He is the Supreme. So unless we accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā ? So that we have to accept, and His instruction, as they are given, everything. Just like economic solution, there is in the Bhagavad-gītā , annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). There is need of anna to feed the animals and the human being. Simply by passing resolution, conference, it will not do. You must produce anna so that animals and men, they may be fed sumptuously. They will get strength, then they can work for yajña. Yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ . In this way people can be happy. *So everything, solution is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā , and we are trying to spread this knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world, and people are accepting. Now we have started in America a political party, "In God We Trust." So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa , and . . . at least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not . . . it is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa , they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . So if you associate with sattva-guṇa , then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa , then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa , they are in knowledge. *Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas , and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam . . . (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa . The next class, kṣatriyas , who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya , they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce food grains and give protection to the cows. *So where are these things? How you can expect good society, good management? If you want good society, good management, people happy in this life and next, then you have to adopt the principles given by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself in the Bhagavad*-gītā . And we are preaching the cult of Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Thank you very much. Devotees: Haribol . (break) Mahāṁśa: Now we open the placement to the questions. Prabhupāda: Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can . . . *Reporter (1): Since you are following Bhagavad*-gītā , do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy? *Prabhupāda: Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā . Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt . So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living man. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. Reporter (1): Sorry, what I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one, as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says . . . *Prabhupāda: We are speaking from the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; *you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī , and my body is deha . So deha*-dehī , there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room; I am not this room. Similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is called illusion. Reporter (2): What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimate aim is that . . . Reporter (2): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I will say ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). See, our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life. Reporter (2): Is that perfection possible in one life? Prabhupāda: Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that: We change our body on account of sinful activities. But if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform. *As soon as you become unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you immediately transcend this material platform. Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate . You remain in the spiritual platform. And if you die in the spiritual platform, then you go to the spiritual world. Reporter (3): But isn't the bhajana that you do . . . (indistinct) . . . for concentration? Prabhupāda: Yes, bhajana is concentration, reading is concentration . . . Reporter (3): No, besides that, any other type of concentration you do? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by concentration? Reporter (4): Meditation. Reporter (3): Meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you think . . . dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , in dhyāna , in meditation, they always see the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu within the heart. So that is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ . The jñānīs , they see by cultivation of knowledge, and the bhaktas , they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is understood from different angles of vision. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). That is Absolute Truth. Yaj jñānam advayam. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. The same thing in different angle of vision. The jñānīs , they realize as impersonal Brahman. The yogīs , they realize as Paramātmā situated in everyone's heart. And the bhaktas , they realize as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the thing is the same. It is the different angle of vision only. Reporter (2): What exactly is guru's role in your system? *Prabhupāda: To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā , constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt (SB 5.5.18). Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease." Reporter (4): . . . (indistinct question) *Prabhupāda: The Americans and the Europeans, they are fed up with this material type of civilization. They are . . . they know that spiritual life is there in India. They understand it. Therefore, any svāmī goes there, they go round him to take some spiritual instruction. Unfortunately, mostly they go who have no knowledge. They cannot give them right knowledge. So for the time being they may surround them, but after some time they disperse, because they do not get actually. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, now many svāmīs went there and they preached Bhagavad*-gītā also, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa for the last hundreds of years. But now Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, and people are taking it by hundreds, thousands. So they are after some knowledge, spiritual knowledge, from India, but our so-called svāmīs , they go, they do not give actual information of the Indian spiritual culture. Therefore they are practically deceived. But this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we do not change anything. In the Bhagavad-gītā you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). So we are teaching them that, "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." So they are accepting. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So we are teaching that, "Just always think of Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , and you will remember Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "And just become devotee. Worship the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. Become His bhakta ." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī . "Worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Māṁ namaskuru : "Offer your obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." So we are teaching this arcanam . We have got hundred temples like this all over the world. And hundreds and thousands are joining. So this is practical. So they are accepting. Now it is our duty to give the actual Vedic culture, which is concise, summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā . Sarvopaniṣad-gavaḥ , the essence of all Upaniṣads teaching. *So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of . . . but here Bhagavad*-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13): "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "You just produce sufficient food grains and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña ." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā ? Reporter (5): Do you think the Russian society is not put it off by this bhajana ? Prabhupāda: Russian? Reporter (5): Society. Prabhupāda: I do not know Russian society, but I can say I have been in Moscow. The people are not happy. That I can say. Reporter (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God in the sense of seeing the Lord's image in their heart? Prabhupāda: What is the mean, that? Reporter (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God . . . Prabhupāda: Vision of God you can see also. Here is vision of God. Reporter (1): In the sense of seeing Lord in their own heart? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, of course, later on. First of all see here is God, vision of God. Everyone can see. It is public. Why you ask my disciples? You can see also. No, no. Just like, vision of God, here is Kṛṣṇa. Reporter (1): That is physical vision. Prabhupāda: That's all. Physical means vision; your vision is also physical. Your vision is not spiritual. Whatever you see with your eyes, that is physical. That is not anything beyond physical. Reporter (1): See with spiritual eyes. Prabhupāda: Spiritual eyes, that's all right. But first of all you have to see whatever eyes you have got. You have got physical eyes. Why you are talking of spiritual eyes? Reporter (1): Well, sir, that only, we are, all these things would learn that spiritual eyes. *Prabhupāda: That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). When you develop love for God, then you can have that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva . He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo . . . that you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. Reporter (1): I don't say that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see the spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for that position. *Reporter (6): That is your God submission. In regards to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in the West—like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with . . . Christianity or society . . .? And do you also say the so*-called svāmīs . . . Prabhupāda: Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or a Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone. The money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact. Reporter (7): But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran. Reporter (7): Yes? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have got in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes. Reporter (8): You have got a center established in Iran? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (8): Within what time? Recently? Prabhupāda: I think about two years. Devotee: Tehran. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. In everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Reporter (8): How do they respond in China? Prabhupāda: Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel . . . everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders, that's all. Reporter (9): You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (9): In this context, how do you see the government of India? Prabhupāda: I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America the president is not liked. Reporter (5): Swāmījī, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (5): How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country? Prabhupāda: Because you did not lead them. You did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books. Reporter (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders? Prabhupāda: Where is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think . . . if the businessman is not spiritual leader . . . Reporter (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā , it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand, m an-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that, "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee. You just worship Me, offer your . . . " And Dr. Radhakrishnan says: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see. This is . . . he is a scholar, he is a philosopher. Even Gandhi says that, "There was no Kṛṣṇa, it is all mythology." Then? How people will learn it? If Kṛṣṇa because mythology, the Bhagavad-gītā becomes imagination and anyone can interpret in any way, then where is the teaching? Reporter (7): Are the teachings themself . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try to understand that what is the defect. The defect is that malinterpretation, bad interpretation. Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then what right you have got to say that, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad-gītā ? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write in your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā ? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous. It has spoiled the whole country. You write your own philosophy. But why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and misinterpret it and mislead the people? That is my protest. Reporter (8): (indistinct) . . . Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter (8): Hyderabad project. Prabhupāda: Hyderabad? Reporter (8): What is your plan for Hyderabad project for Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: What is your Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad project, that he knows, Mahāṁśa. Reporter (9): What your goal, to plan now in India? Your goal to plan now in India? How long you will be staying and . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, I am going to see Bālajī, that's all. Bālajī. Reporter (9): And then go back to the States? Prabhupāda: No. Yeah I will go to Europe and . . . I'll go to London, then to Paris, then Germany, then Sweden, and Switzerland. I have got temples there. In Germany we have got four temples. In Sweden we have got. In Switzerland we have got. France we have got. In England we have got four, five. Reporter (9): No government is placing obstacles? Prabhupāda: No, they receive it very nicely. They understand that, "Swāmījī is doing something nice." Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya , Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Conversation -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: . . . Kerala? Eh? Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Kerala? You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyatma? Indian man (1): He was blaspheming our Society. He was saying . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that, because there may be one . . . because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals, but you do not become rascal. He may be . . . (break) . . . "Who will read Hindi? You do not . . . who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Mahārāja . . ." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru write his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still, Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English*-medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in family they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman—he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect, and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to . . . and even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Indian man (1): Not compulsory. Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (1): Not compulsory. Prabhupāda: Not compulsory. So? *Indian man (1): Not Hindi. Also they are developing local languages. They are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English*-medium schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): But these are also . . . you study in the local languages. Don't study English. They are regulated. Now it seems like every college. Only few college . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English. Indian man (1): This is what I call cheating, to keep this. Prabhupāda: They are cheaters. Indian man (2): Hyderabad e emon keu nei je English jane na. (In Hyderabad, there is not a single person who doesn't know English.) . . . (indistinct) . . . in English. Prabhupāda: That is their local language. Indian man (1): Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees, they don't . . .?" Prabhupāda: Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some section they understand English. Everywhere. Indian man (1): English is common language. Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot avoid English. Pañcadraviḍa: Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English. Indian man (1): There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose. Prabhupāda: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand. Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi. Fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange. Indian man (2): He was blasting our Society. That's why I let him be that. Prabhupāda: No, still, you should not say like that. Indian man (3): . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Indian man (3): English, they speak. That's the language they can understand, many things. And all the people can read it. Prabhupāda: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say: "No, no, no, I cannot accept English?" Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making Life Members, but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no. I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? Indian man: (indistinct) . . . at least one more . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I know one boy, he is about forty*-two years, but he, he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any . . . prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhanga Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over, now he is useless. He does not get any service, although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English—he does not get any responsible position. Pañcadraviḍa: He will not learn? Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: He does not want to learn? Prabhupāda: No, he was trying to learn, but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious. Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will . . . (indistinct) . . . local languages. Because those others don't speak English anymore. Prabhupāda: No, local language is required. Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language. Prabhupāda: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also you should learn, but . . . we can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there. (break) Pañcadraviḍa: . . . getting them into all the schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted. *Pañcadraviḍa: This is how it would work. This is Akṣayānanda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he gives them . . . sells them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa books and Nectar of Devotion , like this. *Prabhupāda: Best thing is that, "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher, Indian religion, Indian philosophy and Bhagavad*-gītā . Then . . . he has written so many books, but not a single in Hindi." Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is from Madras. Indian man (1): Yes, he doesn't know. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyāsa , sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swāmījī, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end) Conversation -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati Satsvarūpa: Secretary, he said: "You write in your books that the . . . that your movement by Lord Caitanya is the . . . as if it's the most exclusive thing." He said: "But actually, in India the Rāmānuja is a more prominent Vaiṣṇava sect." So, as I understand our claim, it's based on the fact that we worship Kṛṣṇa in a higher form, in Kṛṣṇaloka, and they worship Kṛṣṇa which leads to Vaikuṇṭha. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . quarter there is no cinema, no song. Bhaja gopālam. (music playing in background, recording of a woman singing " bhaja gopāla ") Satsvarūpa: Śrīnivāsa said it is controlled by the temple here. Even the government doesn't control. Prabhupāda: This is all temple . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Devotee: . . . prominence. (break) Mr. Iyengar: We came here yesterday. We went to the temple three times, and just for a long . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Mr. Iyengar: This is my wife and daughter. You came yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes, I came yesterday at about eleven. Mr. Iyengar: We saw you in the evening going to the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice place. Mr. Iyengar: Very nice, beautiful place. Very inspiring. Where's somebody coming? (break) Prabhupāda: I am, of course, Indian, but I have got my headquarters in America. (chuckles) Yes. Mr. Iyengar: America. (chuckles) I think I have seen you at Bombay once. Prabhupāda: Yes, Bombay I have got my headquarters. Mr. Iyengar: And your friends were there at the airport, Santa Cruz Airport, and you came by plane, some two years back I remember. Prabhupāda: No, I am going every year. Two times, three times, I have to go all round the world. Mr. Iyengar: I respectfully request you your name, please. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That's all. Call me Prabhupāda. I am preaching this cult, what you have come to see, this being expanded all over the world. Mr. Iyengar: Yes, yes. It's very good. Prabhupāda: And we have got about hundred temples. Mr. Iyengar: At every America? Prabhupāda: No, no, all over the world. In America I have got forty temples. Mr. Iyengar: Forty temples. I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. In England we have got about five. And France, in German, we have got four. Mr. Iyengar: In Germany also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Germany, Sweden, Rome and Australia. Mr. Iyengar: They are also . . . they are very devoted to our creed, our religion? *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā . Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śa . . . ( BG 18.66). That is the only religion. Mr. Iyengar: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is not religion. It is cheating. Only religion is to surrender to the Lord. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ (SB 1.2.6). *Mr. Iyengar: I am a Vaiṣṇavite, you see. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ pāpebhyo . . . (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: That is religion. That is religion. Mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Mr. Iyengar: Oṁ namo nārāyaṇa (recites mantra ). These are our . . . is our mantra . *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you are Vaiṣṇava. The Vaiṣṇava, that is real form of religion. Others, they are not religion. It has been rejected in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra, kaitavaḥ religion is rejected. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Mr. Iyengar: We have to surrender ourselves to God. That's all. *Prabhupāda: That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if you one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the law, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name? Mr. Iyengar: Raj Gopal Iyengar. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa . Mr. Iyengar: Brāhmaṇa . Vaiṣṇavite. Prabhupāda: Yes, Iyengars are all . . . Mr. Iyengar: We belong to South India. Mrs. Iyengar: Yesterday I saw you in the temple, I and my daughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. How many children you have got? Mr. Iyengar: I have got three sons and four daughters. Prabhupāda: All daughters, sons. Mr. Iyengar: Three sons. Three daughters are married. This daughter is to be married. She is a doctorate. She has got M.Sc., Ph.D., in nuclear physics. She went to England for one year. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay in England? Daughter: Liverpool. Prabhupāda: Liverpool. I think we have got our branch. Daughter: Manchester. I have seen, Manchester. Prabhupāda: Manchester you have seen? Oh. Manchester, Liverpool and London . . . London we have got two. Mr. Iyengar: London, in London I have got my son. My son is there. Prabhupāda: Oh. What he is doing? Mr. Iyengar: He is employed there. Daughter: He's an accountant. Mr. Iyengar: He's an accountant, cost accountant. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your children are also . . . (laughs) Mr. Iyengar: I have got another boy in West Germany. West Germany, my last son. Prabhupāda: West Germany. Berlin? Mr. Iyengar: No, he is in Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Frankfurt. Oh, yes. Frankfurt is a big city. Sons are all married? Mr. Iyengar: The last son is not married. Two sons are married. Three daughters are . . . this daughter is to be married. We are trying; not able to get a suitable groom, you see. With your blessings I hope we will succeed. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Nowadays it is very difficult job to get married. (everyone laughs) Mrs. Iyengar: Suitable. Prabhupāda: Well, suitable cannot be. There is no suitable. Mr. Iyengar: Difficult to find. Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, as the girl is grown up, any boy. Mr. Iyengar: We used to marry at the age of ten, eleven. That is . . . those days have been forty years back. Prabhupāda: I was also married. My wife was eleven years old. Mr. Iyengar: My wife was eleven when she was married. I was only sixteen when I was married. Only a difference of four or five years. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And before that, I heard my father*-in-law, he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law was seven years old. My eldest sister was born at nine years old, and I was born after her marriage. Mr. Iyengar: I see. Those old days are finished. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa (end) Conversation -- May 23, 1974, Rome (Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady) *Yogeśvara: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā 13.22 purport) "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature." Prabhupāda: So this is our . . . because we are developing a different consciousness . . . different . . . consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that—not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā . Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te (BG 7.14). And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā . Kirpal Singh disciple: Give up this staying here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kirpal Singh disciple: How? *Prabhupāda: We have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because such consciousness will help us to be free from the contamination of these different types of material consciousness and save us from transmigrating from one body to another. So we accept this different association on account of our strong propensity for sense gratification. Therefore we have to purify the senses so that the senses may be engaged in the service of the master of the senses. Hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate . Bhakti means to be free from all sorts of material designation. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Italian"—these are all designations of the body. So we have to become free from these designations. And that is called nirmalam , purification. And when we are nirmalam , without any contamination, then we can engage the senses in the service of the master of the senses. Master of the senses is Kṛṣṇa, or God. Actually, He is master of the senses. Just like I am feeling comfort by using this sense, touch sense, hand, in this way, but I am not master, because at any moment this hand can be paralyzed. So I am not the master. The master is Kṛṣṇa. So if it is engaged in the service of the master, then it is in its normal condition. And then we are liberated. *And this purification you can take very easily by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra . Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra , Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately associate with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, nondifferent. So as, if we associate with fire it becomes warm, the quality of the fire comes; *as it is materially possible, spiritually it is possible in perfect order. Process is the same. You associate with Kṛṣṇa, and you become Kṛṣṇaite, as pure as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is therefore advising, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So Kirpal Singh also studies Bhagavad-gītā ? I am asking this. Kirpal Singh, he teaches on the Bhagavad-gītā ? Kirpal Singh disciple: I didn't get that. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Your master, does he study Bhagavad*-gītā ? Kirpal Singh disciple: My master is a teacher of the science of the soul. Prabhupāda: What is that, science of the soul? Kirpal Singh disciple: Well, just like what you have been saying, purifying the senses and becoming in consciousness through a master, to know a way of purification by not . . . eating properly and thinking properly. Prabhupāda: The idea is purify the senses. Kirpal Singh disciple: And meditating, meditation. Being devoted, your life will be changed. The master teaches these things, purification. He has written also some books. When he came to America in 1967, I met him personally. And he initiated a group of people. And I was also kind of aiming at that, being a vegetarian a few years prior to that. He accepted me and gave me initiation with the group. And, of course, he went back in about . . . he stayed in the States about twelve days, then he came in Europe. Then he went back. I haven't seen him ever since. I have a picture of him. I carry a picture of him, the leader of . . . in our movement. Think of . . . meditating on the master. And I try to live up to it, to the teachings. Would you like to see that picture? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, I have seen this gentleman. In Delhi I have seen him. Kirpal Singh disciple: In New Delhi. And there are the five names of meditation on the back. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: I can't read it. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham, sat*-nāma. *Kirpal Singh disciple: Sat*-nāma . Those five names, according to your way and its positions, you will be attracted to one of the names. Everyone is a center of power, energy, the way he taught us. Whatever you fear . . . (indistinct) . . . what particular name one . . . someone that you're attracted to that name. Nirana, sana, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra , so 'ham and sat-nāma . I thought that I met a good master. Dhanañjaya: Mr. O'Grady. Desmond O'Grady and some of his friends have just arrived. They'd like to come and see you and speak with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is the Irish poet. (guests enter) Dhanañjaya: Please sit down. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . How are you? Woman: Very well, thank you. Desmond O'Grady: We are very well and very tired. We've been traveling a long, long way, a long road from Delhi. (indistinct comments as guests enter and settle) Dhanañjaya: Desmond is a poet. He's written books also, published in London. And tomorrow he goes to . . . where is it? To Sicily to a convention of poets and writers, international conference for writers and poets. He's representing Ireland. He's coming from Limerick in Southern Ireland. *Desmond O'Grady: This is my friend Michael Robert . . . (indistinct) . . . we are colleagues together since we teach literature, English literature. And this is another friend of ours who has just come from Greece. Everybody seems to be traveling within the last twenty*-four hours. This is a young painter friend of mine, Robert Jackson, also from Ireland, who's a painter, first time in Italy, out of Ireland, and he's staying with me at the moment. He came back with me from Ireland just a few weeks ago. Prabhupāda: We are also writing books, so many. You have seen our books? Desmond O'Grady: I have seen some, yes, because some of the friends have come up and . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) Some of the books, you can show him. Here is one book, Bhagavad*-gītā . *Yogeśvara: You have seen the Bhagavad*-gītā , haven't you, in English? Desmond O'Grady: Oh, yes, but not this particular edition. Yogeśvara: This we just recently published in German, a German edition. Desmond O'Grady: A German edition . . . (indistinct) . . . who has published them? Yogeśvara: This was published in Germany. I don't remember the name of the publisher. This is Macmillan Company, and this is the life of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who began the chanting. Bhagavān: All these books are illustrated by our artists in New York. Desmond O'Grady: They illustrated this? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, they are beautiful. Robert Jackson: Some fantastic work. I've been looking at . . . when you came to the house . . . Desmond O'Grady: The text is in . . . Bhagavān: There's original text in Bengali. This book is in Bengali. Desmond O'Grady: And Sanskrit. Bhagavān: Sanskrit, which Prabhupāda translates himself and gives the explanation and purport. Woman: . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: (Sanskrit) Every night Śrīla Prabhupāda dictates into a Dictaphone, and his secretaries type and edit. And then we have a press in New York which composes and prints. Desmond O'Grady: It's a very nice edition, that Macmillan edition. Very nicely done. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have fifth edition within two years. Five editions. Desmond O'Grady: Five editions in two years. Prabhupāda: Yes. And each time they print fifty thousand books. Desmond O'Grady: This new printing. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London about few months ago, we got report they sold thirty thousand copies in two months. Desmond O'Grady: Thirty thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman: In which country of Europe has the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement been the most powerful or successful? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Woman: Every one? Prabhupāda: Everywhere, yes. In Africa, in America, in Canada, in Japan, in China. Most successful in America. Most successful. Many men have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Woman: What about Greece? Prabhupāda: I never went to Greece. Satsvarūpa: You said you went to the airport and they were chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Really? Woman: I would think they would be in danger in Athens. Bhagavān: It is danger. Woman: There's no way that this movement could be very successful in Athens or in Greece. Not too many things are successful in Greece. Prabhupāda: Yes, when I was going to Nairobi from London, I got down, transit, on the hall. Some young men, as soon as they saw me, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Woman: That's very brave of them. Desmond O'Grady: No, really? In Greece, this was? In Athens? Prabhupāda: Athens, yes. Desmond O'Grady: Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of . . . do you think they're going . . . well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting permissions to go . . . Prabhupāda: That problem is everywhere. Desmond O'Grady: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired. Desmond O'Grady: They become tired. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: The system. The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome . . . Prabhupāda: But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter) Desmond O'Grady: No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now. Prabhupāda: I think the fighting is going on still. Desmond O'Grady: Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here . . . *Prabhupāda: You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life that, "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu . . . (SB 10.84.13). There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog"; the cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped. Desmond O'Grady: What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference. Desmond O'Grady: The Englishman thinks there's a difference. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When you think that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . You will find this verse. (aside) Find out this verse: Nitāi: Yes, 14.26. "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question, what is the means of attaining to the transcendental position? As explained before, the material world is acting under the spell of the modes of material nature. One should not be disturbed by the activities of the modes of nature. Instead of putting his consciousness into such activities, he may transfer his consciousness to Kṛṣṇa activities. Kṛṣṇa activities are known as bhakti*-yoga —always acting for Kṛṣṇa. This includes not only Kṛṣṇa, but His different plenary expansions such as Rāma and Nārāyaṇa. He has innumerable expansions. One who is engaged in the service of any of the forms of Kṛṣṇa or of His plenary expansions is considered to be transcendentally situated. One should also note that all the forms of Kṛṣṇa are fully transcendental, blissful, full of knowledge and eternal. Such personalities of Godhead are omnipotent and omniscient, and they possess all transcendental qualities. So if one engages himself in the service of Kṛṣṇa or His plenary expansions with unfailing determination, although these modes of material nature are very difficult to overcome, he can overcome them easily." "This is already explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa at once surmounts the influence of the modes of material nature. To be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or in devotional service, means to acquire the equality of Kṛṣṇa. The Lord says that His nature is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, and the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme, as gold particles are part of a gold mine. Thus the living entity's spiritual position is as good as gold, as good as Kṛṣṇa in quality. The difference of individuality continues; *otherwise there is no question of bhakti*-yoga . Bhakti-yoga means that the Lord is there, the devotee is there and the activity of exchange of love between the Lord and the devotee is there. Therefore the individuality of two persons is present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual person, otherwise there is no meaning to bhakti-yoga . If one is not situated in the same transcendental position with the Lord, one cannot serve the Supreme Lord. To be a personal assistant to a king, one must acquire the qualifications. Thus the qualification is to become Brahman, or freed from all material contamination. It is said in the Vedic literature, brahmaiva san brahmāpyeti . One can attain the Supreme Brahman by becoming Brahman. This means that one must qualitatively become one with Brahman. By attainment of Brahman, one does not lose his eternal Brahman identity as the individual soul." Prabhupāda: (aside) Find out this verse. Desmond O'Grady: The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously . . . Prabhupāda: Just like in our Society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Muhammadans. But they are no longer Muhammadan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. And that is Brahman realization. Desmond O'Grady: But that's giving it a name also. That's also giving it a name, isn't it? Label. *Prabhupāda: Yes, name must be there. But name . . . just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that, "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names . . . that is called so 'ham . One feels . . . the same example: in a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā ? Nitāi: "One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." Purport. Prabhupāda: He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes. Purport? *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or the pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta , oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there in a higher, spiritual sense." "In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Kṛṣṇa, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; *higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with the ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him, stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma*-bhūta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like the broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuṇṭha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age." Desmond O'Grady: Could you read the opening little bit again? Nitāi: In the purport? Desmond O'Grady: Yeah. *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word." Desmond O'Grady: Okay. Now, is the Absolute internal or external? Prabhupāda: Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute. Desmond O'Grady: I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own absolute, ultimately the absolute that one finds for oneself. Prabhupāda: No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So, so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute. Desmond O'Grady: So therefore there is a life beyond time. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this verse. Nitāi: Chapter Four, text nine: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Prabhupāda: And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to . . . in the spiritual world, that is absolute. Desmond O'Grady: When he goes back to his original. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute. Desmond O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time? Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nation. And after that, again there was war. (chuckles) Desmond O'Grady: (indistinct) . . . analogy. Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nation. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united. But when I go New York, I see flags are increasing; *no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so*-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform. Desmond O'Grady: I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, or an intuition, that . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is possibility—when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black . . ." Desmond O'Grady: Christian. Prabhupāda: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world. Desmond O'Grady: That's very . . . I'll accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are. Desmond O'Grady: I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom. Prabhupāda: No human being is immortal. Desmond O'Grady: Mortal, mortal, mortal. Prabhupāda: Mortal. Desmond O'Grady: That which dies, rots and is forgotten. *Prabhupāda: That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality, it is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform, because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , na jāyate na mriyate va kadācin (BG 2.20). (aside) Find out. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Desmond O'Grady: But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing? Prabhupāda: No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. (aside) Read this verse. Nitāi: *"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Prabhupāda: That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality . . . because actually he is immortal. Desmond O'Grady: Actuality is immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Desmond O'Grady: Hmm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth . . . Desmond O'Grady: Never takes bath? Yogeśvara: Birth. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in the gentle art of conversation. Prabhupāda: Actually . . . just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations. Desmond O'Grady: Accepted. Prabhupāda: So when one is free from the designation, then he becomes purified. So when we become purified, our senses are purified, and when the purified senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is perfect life. That is nonduality, absolute. Bhagavān: That can be experienced in the present. Prabhupāda: Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups—Americans, Indians, Africans—but you don't think yourself as American or Indians or African. Desmond O'Grady: But the system insists that you do. Prabhupāda: Eh? Desmond O'Grady: But the system expects that you do. Bhagavān: The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality. Desmond O'Grady: Materialistic society means duality. But that's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Because of your physical existence . . . Prabhupāda: Unavoidable, yes . . . Desmond O'Grady: . . . and your personal spiritualism as well. Prabhupāda: But it can be avoided in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water. Yogeśvara: Did you understand? Desmond O'Grady: I didn't catch that last expression, no. Bhagavān: Lily leaf. Yogeśvara: To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental. Bhagavān: There's a lily leaf that sits on the water, and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda is explaining we can be in this world . . . Desmond O'Grady: Yes. But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one, necessarily. Because if you like . . . if put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements, here you should get a mountain of salt. Ātreya Ṛṣi: If you can try to understand this example. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, I can understand. Prabhupāda: What is that, salt? Salt example was . . . explain. Yogeśvara: What was your point? Desmond O'Grady: I'm saying it's difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different, you know. Prabhupāda: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, I accept that, of course. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is . . . (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . there's a great difference between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking . . . Prabhupāda: That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious. Desmond O'Grady: God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means . . . Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious. Desmond O'Grady: To become self conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: To be conscious of who you are yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness. Desmond O'Grady: Well, it may be. Prabhupāda: No. Desmond O'Grady: You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect. Prabhupāda: When you are God conscious . . . Desmond O'Grady: Without being pantheistic, you mean? Prabhupāda: Just like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious. You also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear. Desmond O'Grady: Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most beautiful in them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state—because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition; they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one—what we are faced with is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here?" "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said, didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way, "Who am I?" "You are . . ." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also. Prabhupāda: So . . . Desmond O'Grady: And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally . . . and one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or . . . I mean, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education? That's the basic question. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is . . . there are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master." Desmond O'Grady: One must . . .? Prabhupāda: Approach the bona fide spiritual master. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Approach. Desmond O'Grady: The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do? Prabhupāda: No, there is. Desmond O'Grady: If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do? *Prabhupāda: No, we have got standard. The . . . who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like . . . the one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the . . . just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man. Desmond O'Grady: Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master—if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Kṛṣṇa, who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Desmond O'Grady: But then, you see, my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a saintly man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says: "Well, they tell me, the priests, they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God." Prabhupāda: No. Desmond O'Grady: And then he comes to me and asks me and says: "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between God and me. *Desmond O'Grady: That's the difference between being seventy and thirty*-nine. *Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of . . . that is explained in the . . . that Bhāgavata, Brahma*-sūtra , who is God, first of all. Who is God? Desmond O'Grady: Who told God? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God . . . that is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1): "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , janmādy asya yataḥ : "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ . "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said that, "Who taught God?" Desmond O'Grady: Yes, that's the man I want to meet. *Prabhupāda: That is answered, sva*-rāṭ : "Independent." That is God. Desmond O'Grady: Independ . . .? Prabhupāda: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God. Desmond O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it? Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are, being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God. Desmond O'Grady: Therefore we love. Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God. Desmond O'Grady: But God is not love? Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything. Desmond O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Desmond O'Grady: And manifestations of love are manifestations of God. Prabhupāda: Ah . . . because we are part and parcel . . . just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms. So because there is loving propensity in God, and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it? Desmond O'Grady: Maybe it's generated in you by the need . . . Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be. Must be. Desmond O'Grady: (laughs) Oh, very . . . yes, I accept the strong word. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of . . . because we have defined God, janmādy asya yataḥ . God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity—absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same; *therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from śāstras : the so*-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, the vengeful. Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against . . . is it possible to do it all alone? Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone? *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet , this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar. This is called vidhiliṅ form of verb. So vidhiliṅ form of verb is used when there is a . . . matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam . And that is the Vedic version. Therefore . . . you have read Bhagavad-gītā . You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. (aside) Find out this verse. Nitāi: Text seven. "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness." Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . here is the question, "confused." Desmond O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that's what it is. Prabhupāda: Then . . . Nitāi: ". . . and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am . . ." Desmond O'Grady: This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state? Prabhupāda: He is confused because he was a kṣatriya , soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya . Why you are trying to become nonviolent? This is not good." Therefore he says: "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician. Similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge. Desmond O'Grady: Right. So therefore, for example, I am very confused. Prabhupāda: What is that? Ātreya Ṛṣi: He is confused. Desmond O'Grady: Very confused. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: And you make a decision, therefore, to try to sort this confusion, to make some . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test. *This whole world is confusion, just like a blazing fire in the forest. When there is forest fire, all the animals become confused, "Where to go? How to save life?" It is very good example. When there is fire in the forest, all the animals become confused. Similarly, this material world is just like a blazing fire in the forest. Everyone is confused. Now, how the blazing fire in the forest can be extinguished? You cannot take there your man*-made fire brigade. That is not possible. Neither bucketful of water. So in this confused state of the human society you cannot manufacture the solution. The only solution is that when there is rain from the cloud on the forest fire, then it is extinguished. That is not in your hand; *that is mercy of God. So spiritual master means who has received the mercy of God, and he can deliver to the confused man. Then the solution is there. This is very good verse, saṁsāra*-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya. One who has received mercy of God, he can become spiritual master. He can deliver the mercy of God. Desmond O'Grady: A friend, for example. Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: A real friend. Desmond O'Grady: Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of . . . *Ātreya Ṛṣi: True well*-wisher. *Desmond O'Grady: There's no question of being half*-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend. Prabhupāda: Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master, because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend. Desmond O'Grady: The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: Okay. Thank you. That I know. *Prabhupāda: Therefore God is called caittya*-guru , the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without—without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated: *All our questions are answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā very nicely. Nitāi: "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." Prabhupāda: The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction, "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the . . . so if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we wanted something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He is very kind. Īśvaraḥ sarva . . . I want to have something, and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know. We must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master. Desmond O'Grady: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Desmond O'Grady: His Grace must be very tired. Dhanañjaya: We can distribute some prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Give them. Bhagavān: Stay, we have some prasādam , something to eat. Michael Robert: We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session, and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday, at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and . . . (indistinct) . . . our students. They're invited to come. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Bhagavān: It's here in Rome. Yogeśvara: It's a school in Rome. Michael Robert: If you'd like to come. (indistinct comments about the school) Yogeśvara: An American school here in Rome. Prabhupāda: Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. Desmond O'Grady: Just to pay a visit, meet the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness. Michael Robert: God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Thank you very much. Michael Robert: Thank you very much. Thank you all. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Please stay for one minute. Prabhupāda: Please take prasāda . Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction. *There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ , when there is perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam : when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being. Desmond O'Grady: Well, in my experience, the process seems to be . . . it seems to be that while you begin . . . first of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this. Prabhupāda: And that choosing is given. This is this verse, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ : "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible. Desmond O'Grady: This one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Not his brother, not his sister, but this one. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Everyone is important. Desmond O'Grady: But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it. Prabhupāda: No, no, just . . . when we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, but you said . . . Prabhupāda: All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, but what I was saying . . . Prabhupāda: The God means complete. Ātreya Ṛṣi: You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen? Desmond O'Grady: I'm saying . . . yes, a spiritual master, the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God—that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music. Prabhupāda: No, whatever you do . . . music also, you can compose . . . Desmond O'Grady: That's it . . . yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Desmond O'Grady: Okay, I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation. Prabhupāda: Not same thing. When you describe . . . music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection. Desmond O'Grady: Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understandable . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that when you're working in the land . . . Desmond O'Grady: That's what you're supposed to be doing. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work. Desmond O'Grady: I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of . . . (indistinct) Yogeśvara: You could say, with the same consciousness. Desmond O'Grady: Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same . . . Yogeśvara: Devotion. Desmond O'Grady: . . . devotion. Absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way; enjoying yourself the same way; and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. (pause) Michael Robert: We should go now. We should give this man some peace . . . (indistinct) . . . it's very kind to see you, the students on Tuesday. You're not offended I hope, by other teachers, other attitudes. Desmond O'Grady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Michael Robert: We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. Goodbye. Prabhupāda: Alright. Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- May 24, 1974, Rome (Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope - His Eminence Cardinal Pignedoli and Monsignor Verrozano) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm! Yogeśvara: . . . can it be found anywhere else aside from Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: I don't think. Yogeśvara: In other words . . . Prabhupāda: Because they are all ahaitukī ; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihatā ( SB 1.2.6). That is the version. (break) ( kīrtana ) (break) Dhanañjaya: . . . our spiritual master, and he is the founder of our International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Dhanañjaya: This is Prabhupāda's first visit to Rome, to Italy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, yes. You will stay some days here? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Bhagavān: You have visited India? Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India. Bhagavān: You have been to Vṛndāvana? Cardinal Pignedoli: No, I have been to Vārāṇasī, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in . . . Nepal also. Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, very nice. New Delhi, same. And Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh? Monsignor Verrozano: South India. Cardinal Pignedoli: In Kerala? Monsignor Verrozano: Kerala, Tiruchirappalli . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: I haven't been there. Monsignor Verrozano: . . . Cochin, Madras. Bombay, of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, I visited. Prabhupāda: Bombay, there was function. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: At that time, you were there? Monsignor Verrozano: In January. Dhanañjaya: At Cross Maidan. Cross Maidan. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. *Bhagavān: That was our festival, the Bhāgavata*-dharma discourses. We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, yes. And just last year about the twentieth of January, it was this week of festivals also, this . . . (indistinct) . . . of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in . . . (indistinct) Monsignor Verrozano: Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that . . . that is first*-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam : *If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, Adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata*-dharma . *So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta*-sūtra , Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā , "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms . . ." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused. If we simply spoil our life like the animals—eating, sleeping, sex life and defending—then the human life is spoiled like animals. The real necessity of human life is to understand God. Not only to understand God superficially, but to understand our eternal relationship with Him, and then prayojana , the ultimate goal of life, is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is ultimate goal. And if you simply try to understand God as we get it from the revealed scriptures, then after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ . . . deham means this body. After this death . . . there are many deaths in many bodies, but after this death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), he does not enter again into the material body. In his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. *So this is sum and substance of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and we have got many Vedic literatures about it, especially the Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So we have published Bhagavad-gītā As It Is . The publisher is Messrs. Macmillan and Company, and we are selling. It has already gone fifth edition. And each edition they have published fifty thousand copies, and this is the preliminary study book, to understand God. And then, when one is passed of this knowledge, then he can be given the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , which we have published like this, sixty volumes, all original verses from Bhāgavatam , and explained. Then . . . this is graduate study. Then after this there is postgraduate study, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta. This book is in twelve volumes, and other book, Bhāgavatam , is sixty volumes. There are many other corollaries, just like Science of Devotion . Have you got this book? No. Nectar of Devotion . So we have already published about two dozen books of this nature. So people are accepting, especially in the Western countries. Recently we have received report, some of the learned scholar professors, they have ordered all the books. They have introduced in their class, Yale University, Temple University. And they are enlisting my books in the bibliography of Indian philosophy, and they are distributing to the learned circles. And last year we have sold . . . eh? Dhanañjaya: Four million pieces. Prabhupāda: Four millions pieces of books in the Western countries. So you are encouraged. And these boys, young boys, they have encouraged me by joining this movement. And one priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that, "These boys are our boys. How is that? Before that, they did not come to church. They did not inquire what is God. And now why they are mad after God?" This was his remark. And some of the American public, they inquire from them, "Are you Americans?" *So this movement is getting ground all over the world, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and amongst the higher scholarly section also. This is sum and substance of our movement. Our principle is to become sinless. Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this verse. (aside) Find out. *Yeṣām, y*-e-s-a-m . A person who is completely free from all sinful contamination, such person can become a pure devotee of God. Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā. (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "Those eligible for elevation to the transcendental position are mentioned in this verse. For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate. Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the association of pure devotees, who can deliver one from delusion." *"It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that if one actually wants to be liberated, he must render service to the devotees; but one who associates with materialistic people is on the path leading to the darkest region of existence. All the devotees of the Lord traverse this earth just to recover the conditioned souls from their delusion. The impersonalists do not know that forgetting their constitutional position as subordinate to the Supreme Lord is the greatest violation of God's law. Unless one is reinstated in his own constitutional position, it is not possible to understand the Supreme Personality nor to be fully engaged in His transcendental loving service with determination." *Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, we chant always God's name on these beads. And we worship . . . (pause) (someone enters) (guest showing pictures) This is also a church? Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Prabhupāda: Tibet. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama. Prabhupāda: Buddhism. Monsignor Verrozano: Buddhist, but this is from India. Prabhupāda: This is Hindu temple. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. The Mahakrish. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends to God, we are all friends, and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know . . . you are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you go into these places or amongst these people . . . there are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to . . . but we thank you for your visit and for your . . . for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia, probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you . . . have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places? Prabhupāda: Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited. Cardinal Pignedoli: Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God . . . well, I wouldn't say to the Muslim world, because they are good believers, and God is probably . . . they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometime, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and so on, these are cities where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity, and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, eh, if I understand it well. Prabhupāda: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana , a prayer, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . so this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God. And Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in Your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā . I think . . . māyā . So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render, because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then we render service to māyā . Therefore it is the prayer to God that, "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they sometimes say that, "We are now in māyā . As soon as we are out of māyā , then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here, and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life, or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā , that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotovsky, the indologist. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: You were. Prabhupāda: No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So, so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government suppresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; *simply it is being suppressed, either by the so*-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā . We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya (CC Madhya 22.107). It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte . One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began, that process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means first class. But simply a sentiment will not help. Therefore a religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimentality." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be . . . or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā . Monsignor Verrozano: In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals? *Prabhupāda: No, love for man . . . let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception, because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma , they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā : sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. (aside) Can you find out this? *There are different species of life, sarva*-yoni. Yoni means species of life. And there are forms, different forms. But within that form . . . (aside) Yes, read it. Nitāi: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words: sevā , the Sanskrit word sevā , and dayā . You know something of Sanskrit, no? Monsignor Verrozano: Some words, yes. *Prabhupāda: Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea . . . just like in India they say daridra*-nārāyaṇa, some mission, that to give service to the human being and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good. *Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā , verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this . . . *Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. (break) . . . cannot make any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva*-yoniṣu . . . just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." That is not . . . if actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible. Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a . . . Prabhupāda: Lover of God. Cardinal Pignedoli: To become lovers of God, friends to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, of events—not of ideas; of events, of reality—do you think there are many—these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today? Prabhupāda: Mostly. Cardinal Pignedoli: Mostly. You think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: And then you think that men of God are a minority? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before, I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean . . . Prabhupāda: God has also some hobby. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling . . . I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose always—I try to do this—people who are unbeliever, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God . . . we are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know . . . priests, Catholic priests, will, go to an area, because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or go to Copenhagen, where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your Society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not . . . Prabhupāda: For all. Cardinal Pignedoli: For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do they . . . do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present. Prabhupāda: No, we go everywhere. Cardinal Pignedoli: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: Local people. Local citizens. Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process is so nice—that is recommended process in this age—the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," we dance. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere. *Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that, "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra , we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, thank you for your explanations. Prabhupāda: And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese—everyone. Monsignor Verrozano: And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known? I am just coming from Bangkok, where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the . . . (indistinct) . . . order. And have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God. Cardinal and Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Also practically . . . theoretically yes, but practically, do you think that they are atheistic, practically? Because . . . theoretically you see. Prabhupāda: No, no. Our . . . yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa. Cardinal Pignedoli: Also some of them, they believe in . . . they think Buddha is a god, and they are believers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are exclusive, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not what . . . but because we are few . . . I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa, where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan? Prabhupāda: Yes, we go. Cardinal Pignedoli: This is more important, because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although . . . I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why you don't choose these . . .? This is my question. These areas where Japan, for instance, is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly, but the . . . it's called . . . Monsignor Verrozano: . . . (indistinct) Cardinal Pignedoli: No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday, Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask. Then you go to Japan? Dhanañjaya: Yes, we have a center in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong. Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went . . . I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical . . . or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead. That is first*-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first . . . and besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. In the . . . (aside) Find out this verse: "Out of many millions of persons," manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu , "somebody is trying to make his life perfect." Others, they are simply trying to enjoy life like animals. So manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye , and yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3): "And out of many millions of such persons who are trying to make his life perfect, hardly one can understand what is God." This is the statement. (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. *Nitāi: "There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna*-yoga , dhyāna-yoga and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman." "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. *It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti , or devotional service, is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually, the path of bhakti is not easy. The so*-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually, according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu : 'Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the *Upaniṣads* , *Purāṇas* , Nārada Pañcarātra , etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.' "It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist nor the Paramātmā realized yogī to understand *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ, māṁ tu veda na kaścana, 'No one knows Me as I am,' the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), 'Such a great soul is very rare . . .' If one does know Him, such a great soul is very rare. Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is ( tattvataḥ ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said: 'No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service to Him.' " That's from the *Padma Purāṇa* . Prabhupāda: So the position is that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular . . . because in truth, hardly very few people understands what is God. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real, again, and . . . *Bhagavān: Do they have a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā ? Dhanañjaya: I don't think you have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: What is this? Dhanañjaya: If you like, you can take this. Cardinal Pignedoli: I have, I have this. Dhanañjaya: You can have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, I have. Thank you. *Bhagavān: There are many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā , but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee . . . Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock has said very nicely. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, we have also many translations. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have not brought by the fruit? Nitāi: Yes, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja did. Monsignor Verrozano: We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zaehner from Oxford. Prabhupāda: Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock. Yogeśvara: This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment. Prabhupāda: You read, read it. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock's. Cardinal Pignedoli: It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel. Prabhupāda: Read it. Dhanañjaya: (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is legitimate. Dhanañjaya: "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic . . ." Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Prabhupāda: A Kṛṣṇa devotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, and a nondevotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, there is far difference. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Realize, Realize. Prabhupāda: So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated. When the scripture is translated by . . . Prabhupāda: That is because it is legitimate. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, it's very important. Prabhupāda: Read it again. Monsignor Verrozano: You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter. *Dhanañjaya: "In this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. This book is then a welcome addition from many points of view. It can serve as a valuable textbook for the college student. It allows us to listen to a skilled interpreter explicating a text which has profound religious meaning. It gives us insights into the original and highly convincing ideas of the Gauḍiya Vaiṣṇava school. In providing the Sanskrit in both Devanagari and transliteration, it offers the Sanskrit specialist the opportunity to re*-interpret, or debate particular Sanskrit meanings—although I think there will be little disagreement about the quality of the Swami's Sanskrit scholarship. And finally, for the nonspecialist, there is readable English and a devotional attitude which cannot help but move the sensitive reader. And there are the paintings, which, incredibly as it may seem to those familiar with contemporary Indian religious art, were done by American devotees." "The scholar, the student of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism, and the increasing number of Western readers interested in classical Vedic thought have been done a service by Swami Bhaktivedanta. By bringing us a new and living interpretation of a text already known to many, he has increased our understanding manyfold, and arguments for understanding, in these days of estrangement, need not be made." This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this. Monsignor Verrozano: Thank you. It will be a source also for . . . (indistinct) . . . also to give true interpretation, yes, by devotee. Prabhupāda: The trades manager of Messrs. Macmillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing. Cardinal Pignedoli: A great sign of interest. Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: . . . stressing . . . each other. Prabhupāda: Kindly pray to God. *Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out . . . (indistinct) . . . now you know it. You have been here, with Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Muslims. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French*-speaking Africa. Dhanañjaya: Some of our devotees are going to Lagos. Cardinal Pignedoli: Ah, Lagos. Ah, yeah. You are going, also you? Dhanañjaya: No, not me. My Godbrothers . . . Cardinal Pignedoli: I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Muslims, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end) Arrival -- May 30, 1974, Geneva *(Welcomed by Governor at Hotel de Ville - translated by Guru*-gaurāṅga from French) Governor: In the name of the Canton of Geneva and the city, we wish to extend our heartfelt welcome to you. This republic is an independent state, part of Switzerland, and it has a reputation for being a great center of dialogue between all men of science, philosophy and religion. Geneva is the seat of the World Council of Churches, and there is a Protestant pastor who is there as representative of the Canton of Geneva. Unique among the cities of the world, Geneva has had the privilege to greet many great religious heads such as Pope Paul VI, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, and many others. As civil authorities, we are very much encouraged by religious or spiritual groups because they contribute to wake up the consciousness of the people, provided, of course, that they respect all the laws. For thousands of years, man has tried to find perfection through religious means, and for us what is so much important is that this be done with tolerance, that whatever the books, whether they be the books of India or the Torah or the Koran, that they contribute to a general welfare of all men and not that they fight each other. There is the need currently for men to understand each other better and hear each other better. The modern world neither has the time nor the interest to tolerate divisions between men, especially on the spiritual platform. As a result, everyone must try to improve the fate of the individual man through these means. Should we not, then, try to find some common language with which to solve these problems, all the while respecting the dignity of the common man? And we hope finally that this trip in Europe will give Your Divine Grace new perspectives in the search for the truth. Prabhupāda: I can speak in English? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (he asks in French) The president says that you may speak directly in English, no translation needed. *Prabhupāda: So, Monsieur President and Ladies and Gentlemen, the kind words that you have spoken to receive me, I thank you very much for the same. Our preaching principle is bhāgavata*-dharma , and we do not say: "This is Christian religion" or "Hindu religion" or "Muhammadan religion." We speak the science of God. So in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam there is a verse which says: *"That is first*-class religious system which teaches the follower how to love God." It doesn't matter what is the type of religion, religious process. Phalena paricīyate : the thing is proved by the result, how one has learned to love God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. There are two kinds of religious engagements: one is called inferior and the other is called superior. The superior religious system is that which teaches the followers how to love God. Now, what kind of love? That is also expressed there: ahaitukī , without any motive; and apratihatā. Apratihatā means that religious system cannot be checked by any kind of material impediments. If we come to that platform, then ātmā—ātmā means the mind, the soul, also the body, intelligence—everything becomes fully satisfied. *So our this principle of teaching is based on Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Give him the book. Perhaps you have heard the name of Bhagavad-gītā , and some of you might have read it, Bhagavad-gītā . Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra to groups of cousin-brothers. They were fighting to occupy the kingdom, and in that place Lord Kṛṣṇa, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, happened to be present as the chariot driver of one group, Arjuna. So Arjuna was trying to avoid the fighting because the other side, there were relatives, brothers. At that time he was lamenting his bodily relationship, "The other side is my brother, my grandfather, my nephews, my son-in-laws." So that was the platform of speaking Bhagavad-gītā . So first of all, Kṛṣṇa explained that "We are not this body." The first instruction was given: *The first instruction of spiritual life is to understand that, "I am not this body." The example is given, very simple thing, that I am present, although I remember that I had a small body lying down on the lap of my mother. I remember, when I was six months old, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and she was knitting. I still remember that. So everyone, we remember that we had a small body, and then another small body, then another small body. Those bodies are gone. I have got a different body now, but I remember that I had all these bodies. Therefore the conclusion should be for the sober man that "Although we have changed so many bodies, I, the person, the soul, am existing." Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, when I shall give up this body, I shall accept another body. This is the beginning of understanding that, "I am not this body. I am living in this body just like I am not this coat, but I am living within the coat." *There is very vivid example in the Bhagavad*-gītā . If we read, we can understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." When this realization is there that, "I am spirit soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . . the exact word used in the Vedic literature, ahaṁ brahmāsmi . That stage has to be attained in human form of life. In the animal forms of life, this understanding that, "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," in the animal stage of life it is not possible to understand. But in the human form of life it is possible because human being is advanced in consciousness and knowledge, and if he is educated, he can understand. And if he actually understands, then his position becomes brahma*-bhūtaḥ , self-realized, prasannātmā . Immediately he becomes jubilant. There is no more any cause of moroseness. That is the symptom. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then there is no more hankering or lamentation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. At that stage, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, we can see everyone spirit soul. I don't see an American or a Swiss gentleman or a French gentleman or a cat or dog or tree, but I see the spirit soul. That, in that spiritual state, brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , one can see that within this body there is the spirit soul, and he wants to work for benefit of the spirit soul, not for the temporary body. *So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just on the principles of this Bhagavad*-gītā , to understand his real identity, spiritual identity. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ . *One who is actually paṇḍita . . . paṇḍita means learned, and in spiritually learned, he sees that a very learned scholar, brahmin , and a dog, an elephant, a cow, or a low*-born man, creature—all on the same platform of spiritual life. So unless we come to that point, this so-called fighting and sectarianism will go on. So we want to teach people . . . not only sectarian people in India or the so-called Hindus or Muslims or Christians—everyone. Because everyone is spirit soul, and as soon as he understands that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then he becomes completely happy. Yenātmā samprasīdati. So people will not be happy, will not be satisfied, unless and until he comes to that spiritual understanding. So our humble method is on this principle that, "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul." And the spirit soul is eternal, therefore he has got to come to the platform of eternal happiness, eternal life and full knowledge. That is the perfection of life. And any type of religion—it doesn't matter what it is—which teaches this philosophy of life, that is first*-class religious system. That is our conclusion. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (has conversation with someone in French) The president would like to talk to you for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Give me little water. (more French conversation) I was formally received by the French Cardinal. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Danielou. Prabhupāda: Daniel. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) He says that the discussion you had with the Cardinal was very interesting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you come to that position of understanding that, "I am not this body," real spiritual knowledge does not begin. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Understanding the philosophy, Monsieur le President does not understand why we find it necessary to dress differently, though. *Prabhupāda: The different dress means as you have paid for it. Just like we can go to a tailor, he will supply you dress according to the payment you can make. Similarly, according to our karma , according to our work, we are given a type of body by the material nature. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). According . . . because actually I do not possess this material body, but because I am in this material world, I am given a type of body by the material nature according to my work. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Speaking about clothes, Monsieur le President says that he has been to India, and he understands that one dresses like this in India. But why would the disciples dress in America or in Europe in this way? Is it necessary? Prabhupāda: No. It is not necessary. Dress you can have as you like. It doesn't matter, because dress is a dead thing. Real thing is that we want a living being who can understand. That is real the position. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French conversation) Monsieur le President would like to know, if this movement gets bigger and bigger, won't it create problems in terms of working, the economy? Won't the economy suffer if our movement gets bigger and bigger? *Prabhupāda: No. Economy will not suffer, but economy will be simplified, because we have made some artificial economy. Actually, in the Bhagavad*-gītā we find the economic problem is solved by producing food grains. It is stated there, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14): "By eating food grains, both the animals and the men, they become stout and strong." That's a fact. (Guru-gaurāṅga translates) According to Bhagavad-gītā , economic problem can be solved anywhere. If you get . . . if you have some land, you produce your food grain and give it to the animals, especially to the cows, and she will give you in return milk. So if you get milk, fruits, vegetable and food grains, the whole economic problem is solved. *We have already started this example in New Virginia. A group of men, we have got about five hundred acres of land, and we keep cows, and they work to produce some vegetable and food grain. So they don't go outside for solving economic problems. At the present moment—now I am coming from India—in Bombay there is strike, railway strike. People are in so miserable condition to go to their work fifty miles, forty miles, hundred miles for earning their bread. This kind of economic situation has increased the problems of life. Rather, if we accept this economic problem solution, then anywhere, any part of the world you live, you don't require to go outside hundred miles, two hundred miles, five hundred miles. No. You produce your food there, keep animals, then everything is solved. Actually, the problem is, as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : One should take up these problems very seriously: birth, death, old age and disease. So . . . actually, as spirit soul we have no birth, no death. You will find in the Bhagavad, na jayate na mriyate vā kadācit : "The living entity does not take birth." Na jayate na mriyate vā : "Neither he dies." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): "After the destruction of the body, the living entity does not annihilate." He . . . just like we have got already the example: my body, childhood body, is annihilated; still, I am existing. Similarly, I will exist. Now, the problem is how I shall exist. I shall exist eternally in full knowledge and in blissfulness. That is the idea. But so long we accept this material body, it is just the opposite. It is miserable, without any knowledge and without eternity. Philosophy should be to save our time from complicated economic problems. We should make our life simple and save time for spiritual cultivation, so that we can be relieved from repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating for president) Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- May 31, 1974, Geneva *(Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha*-yogi) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: . . . science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so . . . M. Roost: Oh, yeah, I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. M. Roost: But I . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We . . . our Bhagavad*-gītā , there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ ( SB 12.13.1): the yogīs , they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions: sagarbha-yogī, nigarbha-yogī. So what is your special subject matter of yogī ? *M. Roost: I try to make a yoga who is understanding from occident . . . I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma*-yoga . There are dynamics, and . . . I don't understand that we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to . . . Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen? M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different technique. One is praja, prajapa . . . x Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. Then they come to the heart; *then, ultimately, to the brahma*-randhra . This practice? *M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī*-yoga , but very, very tempered, tempere , moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma . It's more a question of conscious of awareness of the breathing and . . . Prabhupāda: Awareness of . . .? M. Roost: Of breathing. Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in . . . Prabhupāda: Prāṇāyāma . This is prāṇāyāma . M. Roost: And you must have the conscious of your breathing from mūlādhāra to ājñā , and ājñā through the lateral column to mūlādhāra . This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to . . . *Prabhupāda: That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā , by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life. M. Roost: Is according to . . .? *Prabhupāda: As the karmīs , they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet. Like that. So they are all karmīs . Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs . So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogīs , they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi*-brahma , "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That . . . this bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or jñāna-yogī , it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti , this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti . So generally, the yogīs and the jñānīs , they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti , to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yogaṁ . After advancing, if the yogī gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection. *M. Roost: Yes. I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight . . . eight*-path. *Prabhupāda: Aṣṭāṅga*-yoga , aṣṭāṅga . *M. Roost: Yes, aṣṭāṅga*-yoga . The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after to the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice for whom? M. Roost: Yes. Without intention. Satsvarūpa: The Lord, he said. M. Roost: Without personal intention. Prabhupāda: I'll speak. Satsvarūpa: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice . . . intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti . We are not intentionless, but purified intention. M. Roost: And what is your practice? Technically, I think. *Prabhupāda: Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam , to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā : we hear from God personally. M. Roost: But with . . . through lecture? Through sound? Prabhupāda: Yes, through sound vibration. M. Roost: And repeat and . . . *Prabhupāda: Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta*-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So . . . *M. Roost: It's like japa, japa*-yoga , for example. *Prabhupāda: That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ (SB 10.14.3). Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something, or I can know the Supreme, by my knowledge. "I am something, I am very important," our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogīs , they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different that, "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the Unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya , that "I am limited, I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the Unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first step, submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva . (aside) Call Nitāi. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first admission, that this way one can . . . (to Nitāi) Find out this verse. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya . Nitāi: Jñāne prayāsam yugapāsya ? *Prabhupāda: It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā . Nitāi: In the *Bhāgavatam* ? *Prabhupāda: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . But . . . Nitāi: Oh, that's jñāna prayāsam . . . *Prabhupāda: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Nitāi: That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. Verse twenty (SB 10.14.20). *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can find out in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . In the Kṛṣṇa book we find out, when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered. I think, first part. Satsvarūpa: This is in English. What would it be? Nitāi: It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. About the fourteenth paragraph. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maha*-Visnu . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, not that. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes. Prabhupāda: Fourteenth paragraph, what is written? Satsvarūpa: Fourteenth is, "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa." Nitāi: Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph. *Prabhupāda: Jito 'pi. Jito 'py asi tais tri*-lokyām . Where we have explained in English. What is the . . .? Madhya-līlā ? *Nitāi: This is Madhya*-līlā , Eighth Chapter. Prabhupāda: You have got? Nitāi: Not here. It's in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? So why not . . . Nitāi: Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter. Nitāi: Not published yet. No. *Prabhupāda: What is this book, this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *Nitāi: That is Ādi*-līlā. Ādi-līlā , not Madhya-līlā . *Prabhupāda: Oh, not Madhya*-līlā . Nitāi: No. Third paragraph, it should begin. Satsvarūpa: The third paragraph of the chapter? *Nitāi: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad*-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor." *Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender, and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad*-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is . . . especially in the Western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma Purāṇa there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi , statement that, "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No, 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained: keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair point is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas , that is taken as Absolute Truth, and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. *So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, one ten*-thousandth portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna , like that, the vāyu . The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogī . *Yogī , first*-class yogī , is he who is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Just like I am talking also, thinking of Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon I stop talking, immediately my "Hare Kṛṣṇa" goes on. So remembrance is there, we don't forget Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) . . . thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So naturally, kṛṣṇa-samādhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Kṛṣṇa . . . and Kṛṣṇa recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogī ." *Nitāi: It is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice . . . this practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self*-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā : yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran ? *Prabhupāda: Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ . Yes, this is very important. Nitāi: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail." *Prabhupāda: So we are practicing this bhakti*-yoga and teaching others also. M. Roost: And when people is not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to . . . when his mind is not prepared to his life, what are you doing? How can you educate people to come vegetarian and . . .? Prabhupāda: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to . . . M. Roost: Yes, but European people. Occidental people is not to be . . . Prabhupāda: They are all occidental. M. Roost: Yes, yes, you, but majority of people. How do you . . .? Prabhupāda: Occidental means Eastern, er, Western? Yes. Nitāi: Western. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all Western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said: "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha , live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa . . . so generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra . But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. M. Roost: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat*-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible. M. Roost: I am according, but how to understand, how to make understand these things? *Prabhupāda: This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that, "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the svāmīs, yogīs and . . . don't mind, I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ (BG 6.17). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā . If you are yogī , if you want siddhi , then you must eat and sleep and accept things— yukta. Yukta means "As it is required." Not more than that, not less than that. That is yukta . We don't say that you starve. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there, but married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on . . . in New York there is a yogī —I do not wish to name his . . . but in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not? Nitāi: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogī . Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? (long pause) M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way very strong, with a technique with a little different as yoga . For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux , like aikido, judo and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: What is that? M. Roost: It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid for death, and is a first problem how to transcend human life, how to transcend the . . . la mort . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: To transcend death. M. Roost: Death, yes. How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, combat , the combat . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Combat. Fighting. M. Roost: Fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple . . . Prabhupāda: (coughing) Water, little. M. Roost: . . . to make the problem very, very clear, and they fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: A sword. M. Roost: . . . and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so . . . we can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to . . . Prabhupāda: No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice? M. Roost: No, he don't kill, but he make like he will killed, but he don't killed. Of course not. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is another . . . M. Roost: But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way very interesting. But . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is automatically taught in bhakti*-yoga . Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. It is said: "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga . But if the master is such (chuckles) a rascal that if he asks the disciple that, "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga , first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi , like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama . M. Roost: Yes, and first is yama and niyama . *Prabhupāda: I know several yogīs , so*-called yogīs , in New York, they are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. Here, and in the America, there are so many women, they have no husband. So naturally they want sex life with others. And there are many such persons take advantage of this. Take fees also. (chuckles) Take fees. (pause) You read the Sixth Chapter, " Yoga Practice" portion? How to sit, how to look, how to behave? M. Roost: Yoga is not for people who is eating too much and sleeping too much. Not sleeping. Nitāi: It says: Prabhupāda: The first condition is eka , "alone." Now where is that facility? Actually, yogīs used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, not in the city, with so many people. Ekākī , this word is used. M. Roost: Eka . . .? Prabhupāda: Ekākī. Ekākī means alone. (to Nitāi) Eh? Go on. *Nitāi: Yata*-cittātmā nirāśīr aparigrahaḥ. Prabhupāda: Nirāśī means without any motive. And aparigraha , without accepting anything from anyone else. Aparigraha . Then? Nitāi: It says, śucau deśe pratiṣṭhāpya. Prabhupāda: Śucau deśe , a very sanctified place. Therefore Indian yogīs , they go to Haridwar, Himalaya. Eh? Nitāi: Sthiram āsanam . Prabhupāda: Sthiram āsanam. Āsanam , you must be fixed up. The yogīs will not leave their āsana. Sthira-āsanam. Then? *Nitāi: Nāty*-ucchritaṁ nāti-nīcaṁ. Prabhupāda: They must not very much raise; not very much lower. Then? *Nitāi: Cailājina*-kuśottaram. *Prabhupāda: Cailājina*-kuśottaram . That kuśa , the straw, and the deerskin, cailājina-kuśottaram. Then? Nitāi: Tatraikāgraṁ manaḥ kṛtvā. *Prabhupāda: Eka*-brahma. Meditation, concentrated, manaḥ kṛtvā . *Nitāi: Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Yata*-cittendriya-kriyaḥ. *Nitāi: Upaviśyāsane yuñjyād yogam ātma*-viśuddhaye . Prabhupāda: Yes. Upaviśyāsane , sitting on the āsana , one should be purified. Then? *Nitāi: Samaṁ kāya-śiro*-grīvaṁ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Samaṁ kāya-śiro. The kāya , this body, and the neck and the head in straight line. Then? Nitāi: Dhārayann acalaṁ sthiraḥ. Prabhupāda: Acalaṁ , without any movement. Then? Nitāi: Samprekṣya nāsikāgraṁ svaṁ. Prabhupāda: And half eyes open, and seeing the point of the nose. Nitāi: Diśaś cānavalokayan. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Not to look any other way; simply . . . these are the practice. Who is going to do that? Ekākī , alone in a sanctified place, making the āsana , doing like that. Then? Go on. *Nitāi: Says, praśāntātmā vigata*-bhīr. *Prabhupāda: No fear. He is sitting alone in the Himalaya, no . . . not afraid of anything, vigata*-bhī. Then? *Nitāi: Brahmacāri*-vrate sthitaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Brahmacāri . This is very . . . no sex life. Brahmacāri*-vrata. And they are taking fees, they are having sex with the disciple. That yogīs . Just see. This is going on. Brahmacāri-vrate ? *Nitāi: Manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ . *Prabhupāda: Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ : "Always thinking of Me," viṣṇu-mūrti or kṛṣṇa-mūrti . Then? *Nitāi: Yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ : "Always thinking of Me." Then? *Nitāi: Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata*-mānasaḥ. Prabhupāda: "In this way, one who practices yoga . . ." *Nitāi: Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa*-paramām. Prabhupāda: ". . . then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa ." *Nitāi: Mat*-saṁsthām adhigacchati. *Prabhupāda: Mat*-saṁsthām . "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then? Nitāi: Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti. Prabhupāda: Ah, nāty aśnataḥ . It is not that you should not eat, abstain. No. Eat very little. So? Nitāi: Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ . Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat. *Nitāi: Na cāti*-svapna-śīlasya. Prabhupāda: "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then? *Nitāi: Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya . . . *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: Hmm. These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That's all. (end) Conversation A -- June 4, 1974, Geneva (Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne) Prabhupāda: . . . our books. *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad*-gītā I have not yet received. *Prabhupāda: Not yet seen Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He has seen, but he will get today. Prof. Regamay: And perhaps some questions I could put to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Regamay: But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions, because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without the guru . And, for instance, one of the first questions I have to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa , it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* . Prof. Regamay: Is that . . . practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen *Purāṇas* . Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika , and six are rājasika , and six are tāmasika . The sāttvika *Purāṇas* , they are Vaiṣṇava literature: *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, *Padma Purāṇa*. Prof. Regamay: The same . . . because I understood through . . . it is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in . . . by Rāmānuja or *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. Prof. Regamay: And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . You have read Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. (aside) Find out this verse. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tenth Chapter. Prabhupāda: So sarvasya . There are originally three deities: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ : I am the origin of all the deities." Read it. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." *Prof. Regamay: Yes, that I know what it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one questions what I had to put that . . . and also . . . may I sit down on . . .? I would be much more . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give him another pad. *Prof. Regamay: Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , there are two questions that I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra , and the Kṛṣṇa, the Yādava Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world . . . that is also in the Bhāgavatam , that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the . . . and in the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ (Bs. 5.48). You understand? Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur mahān , Mahā*-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation . . . there is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ , partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi. Yasya hi . . . yasya . . . what is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā ? Devotee: You have a copy downstairs. Yogeśvara: Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ (Bs. 5.40)? *Prabhupāda: No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita*-kālam avalambya . Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ . Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. (break) Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha , second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I see, but . . . Prabhupāda: It is like that. Prof. Regamay: Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Prof. Regamay: It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam . Infallible. Anādi : He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam (Bs. 5.33). He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). Still, He's just a fresh, young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi . So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. (aside) Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gītā , sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ . What is that? Nitāi: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for in every respect I am the source of the demigods and the sages." *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have . . . because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya*-ist atheist. How could it be? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is . . . original Kapila is Devahūti . . . son of Devahūti, Kapila. *Prof. Regamay: It's what we can't find in Bhagavad*-gītā with . . . *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated Sāṅkhya philosophy. And this Sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not original Kapila. Prof. Regamay: Not a true Kapila. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Regamay: And Buddha? *Prabhupāda: Buddha is śaktyāveśa*-avatāra . We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; *Muhammad, śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered, and he preaches the philosophy on behalf. That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra . There are different types of avatāras—guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra , like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta , about avatāras . (aside) You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya , avatāras , innumerable avatāras . Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ . It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing, you cannot count. Or in the . . . what is that? Avatāra . Read, read that chapter. Nitāi: "Lord Caitanya continued: The expansions of Lord Kṛṣṇa who come to the material creation are called avatāras , or incarnations. Avatāra means one who descends from the higher spiritual sky. In the spiritual sky there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, and from such a planet, the expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes to this universe, and therefore He is called avatāra. Avatāra means to descend." *"The first descent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the expansion Saṅkarṣaṇa is the puruṣa incarnation. This is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , both in the First Canto, Third Chapter, as well as in the Sixth Chapter. It is said there that the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends as the first puruṣa incarnation for the material creation, and He immediately manifests sixteen elementary energies. He is known as Mahā-Viṣṇu lying in the Causal Ocean, and He is the original incarnation in the material world. He is the Lord of time, nature, cause and effect, mind, ego and the five elements, the three modes of nature, the senses and the universal form. He is independent and the master of all objects, moveable and immovable, in the material world." *"The influence of material nature cannot reach beyond the Virajā, or the Causal Ocean, and this is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , Second Canto, Ninth Chapter. On the Vaikuṇṭha planets there is no influence of the modes of material nature. There is no mixture of modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, neither is there any influence of material time. On those planets, the liberated associates of Kṛṣṇa live eternally, and they are worshiped both by the demigods and the demons." *"The material nature acts in two capacities, as māyā and pradhāna. Māyā is the direct cause, and pradhāna means the elements of the material manifestation. The first puruṣa*-avatāra , Mahā-Viṣṇu, glances over the material nature, and thereby the material nature becomes agitated, and the puruṣa-avatāra thus impregnates matter with the living entities. By His glancing, consciousness is created, and consciousness is known as mahat-tattva. The predominating deity of mahat-tattva is Vāsudeva. Consciousness is then divided into three departmental activities under the three guṇas , or modes of nature. Consciousness in the mode of goodness is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Eleventh Canto, and the predominating Deity is Aniruddha . Consciousness in the mode of material passion produces intelligence, and the predominating Deity is called Pradyumna. He is the master of the senses. Consciousness in the mode of ignorance is the cause of the production of the ether, the sky, and the cause of production of the hearing instrument, the ear. The cosmic manifestation is a combination of all these, and thereby the innumerable universes are created. Nobody can count how many universes there are." *"These innumerable universes are being produced from the pores on the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu. It is also said that as innumerable atoms are coming and going through the holes in a window, so from the pores of the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu, innumerable universes emanate. From His breathing also, innumerable universes are being produced and annihilated. All His energies are spiritual. They have nothing to do with the material energy. In the Brahma-saṁhitā this fact is also stated. In the Fifth Chapter, fifty-fourth verse, it is said that the predominating deity of each universe, Brahmā, lives only during one breath of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Mahā-Viṣṇu again is the original Supersoul of all the universes. He is also the master of the universes. That is the description of the first incarnation known as Mahā-Viṣṇu." *"The second Viṣṇu incarnation enters into each and every universe, and in each and every universe He spreads water from His body, and on that water He lies down. From His navel the stem of a lotus flower grows, and on that lotus flower the first creature, Brahmā, is born. Within the stem of that lotus flower, there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems which are created by Brahmā. In each universe, the Lord as Viṣṇu maintains the universe, tending to its needs, and although He is within the universe, the influence of the material energy cannot touch Him. The same Viṣṇu, when it is required, takes the form of Lord Śiva and annihilates the cosmic . . . (break) . . . Viṣṇu is the master of the universe, and in each universe there is a manifestation of the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu. Although He is within the material nature, still, He is not touched by it." *"The third incarnation of Viṣṇu is also an incarnation of the mode of goodness. As the Kṣīrodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu, He is also the Supersoul of all living entities, and He resides in the Ocean of Milk within the universe. Thus Lord Caitanya described the puruṣāvatāras ." *"Then He described the līlāvatāras . He said that there is no count, no limit or count, for the līlā , or pastime, avatāras , but some of them may be described by the Lord, for example, Matsya, Kūrma, Raghunātha, Nṛsiṁha, Vāmana and Varāha. A description of the qualitative incarnations of Viṣṇu, or guṇāvatāras , is as follows: Brahmā is one of the living entities, but he is very powerful on account of his devotional service. Such a primal living entity, by the influence of the mode of material passion, is situated as Brahmā. He is made powerful by the Garbhodakaśāyī*-Viṣṇu directly, and therefore Brahmā has the power to create innumerable living entities. A description of Brahmā is given in the Brahma-saṁhitā , Fifth Chapter, fiftieth verse. Brahmā is likened to the valuable stones influenced by the rays of the sun, and the sun is likened to the Supreme . . . (break) . . . lamp. Although both lamps are of equal candlepower, still, one is accepted as the original and the other is said to be kindled by the original lamp." Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle, then from this candle another candle, another candle. There are many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still, the first one is called original. So far the candlepower is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle, like that. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta*-hetuḥ (Bs. 5.46). They are not derived from any other power. They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti (Bs. 5.46). This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam . He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Prof. Regamay: Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha, who was teaching practically atheist doctrine and no . . . *Prabhupāda: That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . (aside) Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, First Part. *Prof. Regamay: I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that he was . . . he didn't need to preach the worship of God because he was himself God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Regamay: But he doesn't say it in the text. *Prabhupāda: That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Sammohāya , just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men were advocating, "There is no God." So he appeared before them . . . and they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the nonviolence. So therefore he is God himself, and he is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating. Prof. Regamay: Yes. Not teaching, but cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) So sometimes . . . just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says: "No, no, you don't require to go to.There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically he says: "You don't require to go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. (laughs) Prof. Regamay: Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from *Vedas* we understand that he is incarnation of God. *Prof. Regamay: But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā , but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad*-gītā . But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains. *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā , because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña . Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are, who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas . . . because Vedas , animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantra s. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras . So for that purpose, animal sacrifice . . . just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals—frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put, and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so*-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal . . . ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ . He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence . . . just like Christians says that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that . . . I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that, "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere? So I said that he is powerful, he can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said: 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara , godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example: The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful; *we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is . . . but people, on slight imitation . . . is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said . . . and he preached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christian will maintain big, big, up*-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? *So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas . They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say: "In the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ : 'The animals are created for being killed.' " And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing . . . actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidence. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that, "I don't care for your Vedas ." Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction. Prof. Regamay: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas ." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas . So if he says: "No violence," then it is against Vedas . Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not—he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction"—therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas . Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare . We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. We . . . from philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know that he is God. He is God, incarnation of God. Prof. Regamay: I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra . That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen? Prof. Regamay: I have seen. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, viṣṇu*-mūrti . Prof. Regamay: And . . . but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Person? He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person. Prof. Regamay: Yes, person. But Brahman is not person. Brahman. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all right. Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman . Prabhupāda: That is śūnyavādī . We say also. Prof. Regamay: So they are . . . I think it's . . . I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that, for instance, what I find here . . . Prabhupāda: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances . . . just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto me. Obey me." But that is religion. Yes. So the religion is . . . one who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything . . . that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That (break). You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion. Prof. Regamay: But I noted that, for instance, our Christian approach to God . . . Prabhupāda: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God. *Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa*-brahman is the higher form of, than . . . *Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa*-brahman . . . just like . . . here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after . . . *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Geneva lake. Prabhupāda: Geneva lake, and few step after, French lake. Yogeśvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French. Prabhupāda: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say: "The cloudy sky." The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one. It is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say: "This is cloudy sky." Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. Prof. Regamay: Now, one question still. Why in Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already . . . there is no difference. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the . . . Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the *Upaniṣads* , they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. *So you cannot understand the goloka*-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya , the goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. *(break) . . . seeing very, very distant, ninety*-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see? But if you have got the capacity to run on . . . just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet . . . actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain. Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. Because personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The . . . just like, the same example: the sun-god, the sun planet and the sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. So sun*-god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot understand it. Therefore stop. (break) . . . light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said: "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower-class students, "One plus two equal to three. Two plus two . . ." that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three. No. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad . . . ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So *Vedas* and scriptures are there, differently, according to different condition. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people, you can understand. The first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling, "Thou shall not kill"? The Muhammad also said: "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also. Lord Buddha said: "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that. *Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so*-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence, or like Gandhi, it was wrong . . . Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual . . . (indistinct) . . . he was a politician, that's all. Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal . . . Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything. *Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad*-gītā in English. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. "There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no *Mahābhārata* or Kurukṣetra." He has written like that. Prof. Regamay: But he was dead with the words "Rāma." Pronouncing "Rāma Rāma," were his final words. Prabhupāda: Well, I . . . that is the process of India, to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity. But actually, Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Casey. So he, I remember, "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politician." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil. Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case? *Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence . . . actually, that is the subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā . What do you mean by nonviolence? Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence; *but the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā , paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām . Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily. Prof. Regamay: But this young boy who was asking what to do with the Fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the Fascists. You remember, it was . . . Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām : those who are sinful, rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the Fascist is sinful or the person who is attacking the Fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now . . . formerly, there was fight between nation to nation, and now, we have seen in Italy—I was in Rome—now they are fighting amongst themselves. Prof. Regamay: Awfully. Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed. Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: The Fascist and the non*-Fascist and this and everyone . . . and that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, Fascist and non-Fascist. Because according to Bhagavad . . . paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names. Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically. *Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so*-called leaders, they are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra , simply killing, simply killing. That's all. Finished. *Prof. Regamay: But they have still 4,000 years of Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Not 4,000; 400,000. So yes the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this . . . the atom bomb is ready. You have got; I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finished. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill . . . you know, grinding mill? Prof. Regamay: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it, and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly, the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. "Save" means . . . this is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma . . . Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities, in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts—everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four*-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing. "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead." Prof. Regamay: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him. *Prabhupāda: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, that's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do, He says: "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility, "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says: "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right, do it." But you'll have to get the result of it. Prof. Regamay: I thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: It was very, extremely useful. Just ends some problems. Yogeśvara: How many students do you have? (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 5, 1974, Geneva (With M. Douant, the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; Mlle. Peritier, a member of the Protestant Centre of Geneva; M. Morrel, the Dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Geneva; *M. Roche*-dieu, former honorary professor of history of religion of the University of Geneva; and a theology student.) Yogeśvara: (French) Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Centre in Geneva. Prabhupāda: One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Centre? Yogeśvara: Yes, Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant. Swiss man (1): The President. Prabhupāda: Why don't you give him a chair? Yogeśvara: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Little rheumatism. Prabhupāda: Give him chair. *Yogeśvara: Yes, he's . . . Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Centre of Geneva. Monsieur Roche*-dieu, who is the . . . Doyen . . .? *M. Roche*-dieu: Former . . . former Honorary Professor of History of Religions in the faculty of theology, Protestant theology. *Yogeśvara: Mr. Roche*-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion. Prabhupāda: Ah. M. Morrel: (French) Yogeśvara: Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university. Yogeśvara: (French) Theology student: (French) Yogeśvara: Theology student. Our spiritual master, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you have shown our books? Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes of these books. Yogeśvara: (French—Yogeśvara showing books) *Prabhupāda: And Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . *M. Roche*-dieu: Whose are those pictures? Yogeśvara: Our students'. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations. *M. Roche*-dieu: Indian students? Yogeśvara: No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students. Prabhupāda: No. American students, under my direction. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of . . . Yogeśvara: (aside) You have that letter? Satsvarūpa: The letter, in English. Yogeśvara: (French, explains contents of letter regarding standing orders) *M. Roche*-dieu: Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliage who is in Chicago, department, religious department? Yogeśvara: What is his name? *M. Roche*-dieu: M. Eliage, Eliage. Yogeśvara: Professor Eliage? *M. Roche*-dieu: E-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman. Yogeśvara: Eliage, Professor Eliage . . . *M. Roche*-dieu: Eliade. Eliade. Yogeśvara: Eliade. Chicago University? Prabhupāda: No, I have never gone to Chicago. Yogeśvara: Is not Professor Dimock from Chicago? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Professor Dimock. Perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimock. He's head of which department? Satsvarūpa: East Asian. *Yogeśvara: The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad*-gītā . *M. Roche*-dieu: I have been in there, yes. Chicago University Department. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka . What is the symbolism, significance? Prabhupāda: It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides. (Yogeśvara translates Prabhupāda's answers through out. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The shaved head, he's asking the significance. Prabhupāda: This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking. Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially the brāhmins , they keep the shaven head. Brāhmins are the topmost class. (aside) What is the symptoms of brāhmin , find out. Nitāi: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmins work." *Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra , natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section like the belly, another section like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). (aside) Find out this verse. Prabhupāda: Page? Nitāi: 235. Yogeśvara: You have it? Nitāi: You want to read it? Yogeśvara: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates) Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and . . . all of them required . . . you cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmins are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā ? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain, because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā. (aside) So their qualification, brāhmin qualification, find out page. Nitāi: It's eight twelve. Yogeśvara: Eight twelve? Prabhupāda: 8 12. Yogeśvara: (reads verse 18.42 translation in French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?" Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only. Swiss man (1): But there are the outcastes, and they have . . . Yogeśvara: Do you mean the untouchables? Swiss man (1): Untouchables. *Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras . They are called pañcamas . These are four divisions: brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class, but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas , or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas , the fifth*-class men, are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is . . . māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya . (aside) Read it. Nitāi: "O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination." *Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction, because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere, and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Māṁ ca . . . (aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān . . . Nitāi: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction. Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) *Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu*-saṁhitā , for example, śūdras are not to be instructed. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra . A devotee is no longer śūdra . We are creating brāhmins . Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu*-saṁhitā , they are mlecchas, yavanas . But we are not keeping them mleccha and yavanas . Just like these European and American boys, they are accepting the Vedic regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas . They are brāhmins . So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmin , Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmin , he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana . He is brāhmin , or Vaiṣṇava. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists, because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system. Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science, he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism or Hinduism; *it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa*-karma . One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated. Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction. Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (aside) What was his first point? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian, whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmin . So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmin . How does one become brāhmin ? Prabhupāda: Brāhmin means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the Ten Commandments, how you can become Christian? Mlle. Peritier: (French) *Prabhupāda: First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the Ten Commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa*-karma : by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops, either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then they are equal. (aside) Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Read it. This is the ideal of equality. (aside) Find out. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The supreme occupation, dharma , for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *Prabhupāda: So our this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism . One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata . That is first*-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing. Prabhupāda: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too. Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; *then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find, God says: So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals . . . *M. Roche*-dieu: Living being. Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian, I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being, I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Life is a wholeness, a view, and there is no division between animals and man. Prabhupāda: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that, "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics—the same spirit soul. (aside) Read that. Nitāi: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." *Prabhupāda: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma . So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that, "Only love the human being." There is no such thing. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God." Prabhupāda: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal . . . just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant—the animal may be ignorant—but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal? Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "How do we see ourselves, and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society?" *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (giving further translation) Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity . . . Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that, "These are human beings; they should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa, elephants; they are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hollow, the hole of your room, there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God, and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them? *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) He says: "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain . . . many species that do eat meat." Prabhupāda: Among the animals. But you are not animal. *M. Roche*-dieu: They do not eat anything else. Prabhupāda: But you are not animal. Animals among . . . the tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion? Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe . . . just like a man who has one hundred sheep, and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you should kill animal? *Theology student: At the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā , if I remember . . . Prabhupāda: And Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning, disobedience. How you can become Christian? *Theology student: Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught through Bhagavad*-gītā , in some way, is that he should not restrain and that . . . *Prabhupāda: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad*-gītā . When there is aggression you have the right to kill, but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful. Theology student: (French) Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants? Yogeśvara: Why do we make the distinction, then, between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants? Prabhupāda: We do not kill plants also. We take . . . of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (SB 1.13.47). That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say: "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. There must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says—find out this— patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Yogeśvara: (translating) . . . jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French) . . . *Prabhupāda: There is no jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Here Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me these things, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam ." There is no question of jīvasya jīvanam. Just hear. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, "Give Me this food." So we take kṛṣṇa*-prasādam. We don't directly do anything. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them, and then we take it. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Kṛṣṇa's, not mine. Swiss man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you open this? *Yogeśvara: He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' " Prabhupāda: You must kill always. Swiss man (1): Yes. Because you object that . . . your chief, army chief, and your duty is to . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is that . . .? Where is that quotation? Are . . . you know . . . where is the quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says in the beginning of the *Gītā* , Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Why? "Because you are kṣatriya . There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for . . ." Just like my hands, kṣatriya . If there is attack, it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight, because you are hand. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "But then Kṛṣṇa says: 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification . . ." Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say: "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals." Swiss man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court, and if you say that, "He is not killed," will you be saved? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only . . .?" Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yogeśvara: He says: "How is that, that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad*-gītā teaches?" *Prabhupāda: Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become . . . (aside) Find out that verse, yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ (BG 7.28). This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful, you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. (break) Yogeśvara: (translating) Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate and . . . *Prabhupāda: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic . . . pillars of sinful activities . . . just like four pillars. One is this meat*-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously. Prabhupāda: But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things. Prabhupāda: Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man. Prabhupāda: The fellow man helping, what does he gain? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says,:"Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities . . ." Prabhupāda: No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself." Prabhupāda: But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him? Swiss man (1): Certain circumstance. Yogeśvara: He says: "In certain circumstances." Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances. But if you do not know how to . . . suppose a man is diseased and you think . . . the doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that, "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping; that is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not . . . helping means, real helping is, that a man or animal, anyone . . . everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger . . . there's a danger in what he calls "Spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually . . . Prabhupāda: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he . . . that is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego that, "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that, "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good. Yogeśvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: That how can we say that to give people . . . that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress. Prabhupāda: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Probably not very much." He said: "But maybe we can do something." Prabhupāda: Then this is simply a false pride that, "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service that, "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Prabhupāda: So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk? Swiss man (1): (French) *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You want to translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons." Prabhupāda: But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also, they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If . . . the Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: That's interesting. That's an interesting point. He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free . . . Prabhupāda: Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not . . ."? They are all false things? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center, and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. (aside) Read it. Yogeśvara: (reads French translation) Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. (aside) Read the purport. Yogeśvara: (reads purport in French) Prabhupāda: So, so far I have studied . . . I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this—produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land . . ." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff? There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says all of these things, they are known. He says, they know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this . . . Prabhupāda: And therefore knowledge is required. Yogeśvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice. Prabhupāda: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. Swiss man (1): What is lacking is love. *Prabhupāda: That is not love. I love you, I will kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means . . . you see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ . That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, within, love. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others. *M. Roche*-dieu: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons. Yogeśvara: Here's that verse. Prabhupāda: Here is the verse. Yogeśvara: (reads French translation) Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that. Prabhupāda: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego and this pride. What is that knowledge? Prabhupāda: So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me and in him? What do you think? Yogeśvara: (aside to Swiss man) Is that right? Did I translate it? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that . . . first of all, he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher, spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: But he says now . . . but there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept. *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) Was there something else that I missed? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying, but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motorcar, big motorcar, big machine, is moving, but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement—real mover is the spirit—you have to admit. Yogeśvara: Yes, they are willing to. Prabhupāda: Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately . . . so I am also īśvara , means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara , "the supreme controller." That is God. *Yogeśvara: (to Guru*-gaurāṅga) You can translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translates) Prabhupāda: So there are two īśvaras . I am also īśvara . So far my this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things—material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of . . . Swiss man (4): Geneva. Prabhupāda: . . . Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things: animate and inanimate. One section, animate; *another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras . We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. But supreme God, the supreme controller, is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit . . . we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge. (Guru*-gaurāṅga translates) Theology student: (French) Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content." Prabhupāda: Thank you. Swiss man (1): We do have other questions on the same level. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. Swiss man (1): It is external. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle: the another . . . ignite another candle, ignite another candle. Now, all these candles, so far light*-giving power, the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble, because the candlepower is the same. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "savior"? Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being. Prabhupāda: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering. So savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead. Swiss man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru , the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru ? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa . . . Prabhupāda: Guru . . . guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference, because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message, he is neither guru , nor son, nothing of the sort. Swiss man (2) and others: (French) Yogeśvara: What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure . . . they're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or . . .? *Prabhupāda: We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . ." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is, either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā , man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru , Ninth Chapter. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68). Nitāi: 9.34 Prabhupāda: Translation. Nitāi: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus, does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process: "Engage your mind in Me." Then? So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of God—it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see: *"The first*-class yogī is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point. Swiss man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) "And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, your . . . our philosophy is that naturally these others things—charity, humanitarian works—they will all come naturally?" *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given . . . (break) . . . one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor*-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the USA also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious. Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them." Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "And you said them." *M. Roche*-dieu: I am very glad to have . . . to heard you saying these. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (aside) Bring prasāda . *M. Roche*-dieu: That's positive. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: Show him the pictures. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children. Theology student: Are you from Los Angeles? Yogeśvara: No, I'm from New York. Prabhupāda: This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here. Swiss man (1): (French conversation with devotees; prasādam is served) Yogeśvara: Right there. The young man behind you. (French) (break) Theology student: . . . how well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to . . . Yogeśvara: He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education. We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee. Swiss man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said: "Yes, but then I went and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties." Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that,"Some of the hippies," like that. Swiss man (1): Have you been in connection with Aurobindo? Yogeśvara: Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo? Prabhupāda: Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo? Swiss man (1): Because he's . . . well known in Europe. Prabhupāda: He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. Swiss man (1): Because he wrote on the Veda and . . . Prabhupāda: We never . . . why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted. Aurobindo was . . . Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them. Prabhupāda: And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (aside) Give this flower. Thank you. Swiss man (1): And God bless you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation—choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now did I say wrong that, "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?" Nitāi: You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right. It's great. Prabhupāda: I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? He could not know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said: "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager: "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism? Prabhupāda: That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity. Yogeśvara: He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think . . ." Prabhupāda: That's all. Yogeśvara: ". . . think we can do something." *Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said . . . he belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds that, "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big, become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that, "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor . . . now, those who have accepted voluntarily poverty*-ism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them? Yogeśvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood. Prabhupāda: This is karma . If you have bad karma , then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said: "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand. *Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Therefore I said that Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor*-feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone— paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant, but that does not mean you kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this? Yogeśvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane, and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food, they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating . . . Prabhupāda: Cow's flesh. When it was? Yogeśvara: This was about . . . now it is almost a month ago, one month ago. Prabhupāda: Where it was? Yogeśvara: In the Andes mountains? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: High in the mountains. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed. Nitāi: South America. Yogeśvara: Is it South . . . Nitāi: Andes, yes. Yogeśvara: I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed, and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles, "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No." *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Who's left a copy of Bhagavad-gītā here? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy. Yogeśvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One thing, though, on that report. I read that there were certain people . . . Prabhupāda: There was no vegetable? Yogeśvara: No, it was way up in the mountains. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Icy, cold. Yogeśvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies—his fiancee or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies, they would eat them last. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister*-in-law, cousin. They said: "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that. Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also. Yogeśvara: Concentration camps. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Really? Phew. What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view? Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break the regulative principles—if it is necessary? Prabhupāda: If it is necessary. Yogeśvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years? Nitāi: Saubhari? Viśvāmitra. Prabhupāda: Vālmīki. Yogeśvara: No. Nitāi: Viśvāmitra? Prabhupāda: Viśvāmitra. Yogeśvara: He also had to eat dog, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: There's a story about that. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is said. How they exist in that open, and there was snow? For eighteen . . . eighteen days? Yogeśvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on the blankets and their coats. But there was no . . . they could not go outside. There was no food. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They had . . . at first they had little chocolate, and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves, "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that, "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it, and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did. Yogeśvara: They made some . . . afterwards they had to . . . there was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that, "We must eat this flesh to stay alive, but it's not so wrong, since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise, dead body's flesh is as good as anything else, because it is matter. (break) Yogeśvara: There are other meetings tonight? Who is coming? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is one more meeting today. Prabhupāda: Where? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is the European Centre for Nuclear Research. Prabhupāda: What can I do there? (laughter) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They're coming. This man has worked in India . . . (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga . . . (SB 7.6.1). Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā. The same thing. Nitāi: Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat? Prabhupāda: Little fruit and a little this. (end) Conversation -- June 10, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Christian Priest, Mr. Chenique) *Jyotirmayī: Mr. Chenique has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad*-gītā , and now you see he is wearing a dhotī , he's coming to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he's coming for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gītā . But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Brahman, Paramātmā . . . he understands English? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then Personality of Godhead. (Jyotirmayī translates into French) Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are. Jyotirmayī: Yeah, Mr. . . . (indistinct) . . . is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Kṛṣṇa consciousness was . . . Prabhupāda: In India, where did you stay? Mr. Chenique: In Poona. Prabhupāda: Poona, oh. How long you were there? *Mr. Chenique: Twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: Half of my time, yes. I was in India half my life. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally. Mr. Chenique: Did you come to Poona? Prabhupāda: Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think. Mr. Chenique: Yes, not far. Prabhupāda: Yes. Poona is nice place. Climate is nice. Mr. Chenique: For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many good scholars. Mr. Chenique: Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich. Prabhupāda: Yes. Maharashtrian, they are educated, advanced. Mr. Chenique: How do you find your disciples here in Europe? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Mr. Chenique: I shouldn't ask personal question. Prabhupāda: No, it is not personal. It is . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone. Mr. Chenique: It does, it does. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only here in Europe—in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center. Australia. Mr. Chenique: In Bombay also you have got? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bombay just now we have got a very big place. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Prabhupāda: And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasādam . We are at Juhu quarter. Mr. Chenique: At Juhu. Prabhupāda: (someone enters room) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here. Bhagavān: You have been to India? You've worked there. Mr. Chenique: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, he was twenty*-five years there. *Mr. Chenique: Twenty*-five years. Prabhupāda: He is Indian. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: And I was . . . I mean I am still a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but not of the old tradition of Maharashtra, the . . . (indistinct) . . . of Pandharpur, Viṭhobā. Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, that Viṭhṭhala, Viṭhṭhala. Viṭhṭhala, there is. So they are Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: And it's the main . . . (indistinct) . . . center of Maharashtra. Prabhupāda: Yes, Pandharpur. *Mr. Chenique: When I went to India twenty*-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage. Prabhupāda: What was your subject matter studying? Mr. Chenique: I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brāhmin pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharashtra, Orissa, Jnaneshvara. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma, Tukārāma. Mr. Chenique: Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mr. Chenique: I have proceeded Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma is in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Mr. Chenique: That's right. Prabhupāda: He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga , that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya. Mr. Chenique: It's a great bhakti tradition. Prabhupāda: Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ . (aside) Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti . Nitāi: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." *Prabhupāda: So in another place also it is said, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśaya (BG 18.68). "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, then always think of Me," man-manā , "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles. It is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So by uttering the word Kṛṣṇa , immediately you think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma . . . just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma . . . what is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, everyone can see how these young boys and girls—they are not very old; *they have taken to it quite young—but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got—Kṛṣṇa dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life—no meat*-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Kṛṣṇa says that, "Surely you come back to Me." What is the second line? Man-manā . . . *Nitāi: Mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam ātmānaṁ mat*-parāyaṇaḥ. *Prabhupāda: In another place it is said asaṁśaya . That is in the Eighteenth Chapter, I think. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn—they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. *The first*-class yogīs . Actually, no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Kṛṣṇa, tongue, and hear with the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir (SB 10.14.3): by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending . . . "We" means Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He says that, "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks, "Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God. Why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name? French man: Jehovah. Prabhupāda: Jehovah? French man: He has no name in Christianity. Prabhupāda: Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Kṛṣṇa; what is the harm? Every religion believes—not believes; it is fact—that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion? Bhagavān: Buddhist religion? Mr. Chenique: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament. Prabhupāda: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible. Mr. Chenique: You have got many idea of God. Prabhupāda: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God. Mr. Chenique: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Chenique: And this experience is different of many people. Prabhupāda: But you experience . . . because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect. Mr. Chenique: But who is to say . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . Mr. Chenique: . . . what is a perfect experience? Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Even we are imperfect, with our . . . as far as our knowledge goes, now generally, just like the Christians, they say: "God is great." Is it not? Mr. Chenique: That is rather the Muslims. Prabhupāda: Huh? That is Muslim. Mr. Chenique: Allah. Prabhupāda: Allahu akbar . So what is the conception of God of the Christian? Mr. Chenique: As you said, it's impersonal, transpersonal, that what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Relationship means that He must be a person. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Otherwise, how you can . . . Mr. Chenique: It is beyond a person. Prabhupāda: Beyond the person . . . just like we have got experience: when you call "relation," then "relation" means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation. Mr. Chenique: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So relation means two person—one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but what we don't . . . we don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself. Prabhupāda: What is that, relation itself? Explain. Mr. Chenique: It's when you are two together, when the master . . . Prabhupāda: Then two together means person. As soon as you . . . Mr. Chenique: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation. Prabhupāda: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two person. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no? Mr. Chenique: You see, I have got relation . . . Prabhupāda: We are two person. Mr. Chenique: . . . with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship. Prabhupāda: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation, as we have got relation? Mr. Chenique: Certainly. Prabhupāda: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise. Mr. Chenique: Yes, but I don't make of God the object of relationship. Prabhupāda: Then what . . . Mr. Chenique: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship. Bhagavān: A relation with who? Mr. Chenique: Relation with anything. Bhagavān: That is God? Mr. Chenique: That is God. Prabhupāda: What is that? Bhagavān: He thinks relationship with anything means God. Prabhupāda: Anything? Bhagavān: Yes, anything. Mr. Chenique: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship with you, so then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter . . . Prabhupāda: But in your Bible you say: "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible, "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father. Mr. Chenique: But . . . Prabhupāda: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son. French man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the Christianity of this country. There are two main conceptions—the oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western . . . Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of any particular Church. We are just trying to understand the word relation . French Man: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship . So in the Bible it is clearly said: "O Father," so the relation is father and son. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no? Mr. Chenique: You have to . . . I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma, you know. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced, but what is my own experience. Prabhupāda: No, no. God's relationship should be universal, not that . . . it may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is . . . Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion; that is a different thing. Mr. Chenique: But we have to have the opinion which we experience. Prabhupāda: What is that experience? You ask: "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the *Vedas* also it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānām , the chief, the Supreme. And in the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka , that one; God is one. Bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān : He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the *Vedas* and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way—as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are relative with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife. Mr. Chenique: I don't think so. I mean . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But . . . Mr. Chenique: Not opinion; experience. Prabhupāda: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience? Mr. Chenique: That God is beyond all our experience. Prabhupāda: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. (laughs) If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: Personally, of course, but . . . Prabhupāda: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: But if you know what you can't explain . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know. Mr. Chenique: You don't think an illusion . . . (indistinct) . . . relationship. Prabhupāda: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing. That is knowledge. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but that knowledge is very . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach, because you do not know, it is not within your experience. Mr. Chenique: That's why I don't preach. Prabhupāda: That's all right, then . . . (laughs) (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: So you cannot explain. That is all right. Mr. Chenique: That means I have the experience . . . Prabhupāda: But . . . Mr. Chenique: . . . that my experience is limited . . . Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Mr. Chenique: . . . and God is unlimited. Prabhupāda: That is all right. That I admit. Mr. Chenique: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Just like you know . . . Mr. Chenique: And nobody can. Prabhupāda: . . . you do not know me; you have no experience about me. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: But if I say: "I am like this," you will get experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Then why no? Mr. Chenique: If I live with you for some time . . . Prabhupāda: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swāmījī might have one thousand dollar," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say: "No, I have got one million dollar," then you get the experience. Mr. Chenique: No. Prabhupāda: Why no? Mr. Chenique: I will get the experience of you when we are living together. Prabhupāda: That means you cannot talk with God. Mr. Chenique: Of course not. Prabhupāda: That's it. But if anyone can talk? Mr. Chenique: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mr. Chenique: But my experience is that you cannot . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. So direct experience, taking experience, "I am like this." Just like Kṛṣṇa says, Find out this verse. Nitāi: "I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Prabhupāda: Just see. This experience. *Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: God. Mr. Chenique: I mean, you need to have faith for that. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? *Bhagavān: You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Why faith? God is God. Why faith? Mr. Chenique: Because, you know, I have been living in . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. You have no experience, you have said. You have no experience. Mr. Chenique: No, I have not said. You said I did. Prabhupāda: No, you said that God is beyond your experience. You said. Mr. Chenique: A real svāmī listen first if he wants to profit. Prabhupāda: First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience. Mr. Chenique: That's right. That is my experience. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience. Mr. Chenique: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: You say God is beyond your experience, you say. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience. Because I found out that all my experience does not mean God. Prabhupāda: But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about? Mr. Chenique: No, you don't . . . you see . . . Prabhupāda: Then it is a bit difficult. Mr. Chenique: I have always told that the duty of the svāmī is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand. Prabhupāda: No, no, you said . . . first of all let us . . . why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God. Mr. Chenique: No, I never said that. Prabhupāda: Then tell me your experience. That I want to know. Mr. Chenique: That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta , and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience. Prabhupāda: That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you? Mr. Chenique: That the image of God, as do you call it Kṛṣṇa or Rāma or Nṛsiṁha or any of the avatāra . . . and you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar, there was a svāmī who called himself an avatāra , and . . . Prabhupāda: That anyone can say. I can say third avatāra , he can say fourth avatāra . Mr. Chenique: So if anyone can say . . . Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say: "I am avatāra ." Mr. Chenique: Exactly. Prabhupāda: So . . . Mr. Chenique: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatāra ? Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatāra . We have got documents who is avatāra . Mr. Chenique: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa is . . . Kṛṣṇa is avatārī . He is the origin. That it is stated here, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). You know Sanskrit? Then what is the meaning of ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ ? "I am the source of all avatāra ." Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but who has written that? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mr. Chenique: Who has written that? Śrīla Vyāsa. Prabhupāda: Anywhere he has written. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has written. Kṛṣṇa has spoken, Vyāsadeva has written, and it is accepted. Mr. Chenique: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress. Mr. Chenique: Ah, you have to go beyond. Prabhupāda: As soon as you . . . just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother, and you believe that, "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect. That's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but you know . . . Prabhupāda: If you say: "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know. Mr. Chenique: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say . . . *Mr. Chenique: . . . that "I am an avatāra " or "I am Guru Mahārāj*-ji" or "I am . . ." so to say, "Meher Baba" or "Satya Sai Baba," so many bābās exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really bābā ? They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatāra , and they have many disciples . . . Prabhupāda: But we don't believe them. Mr. Chenique: No, but they have many disciples. Prabhupāda: Many disciples, that is another thing. Mr. Chenique: Millions. Prabhupāda: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody . . . so many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity. Mr. Chenique: And if I had said that . . . *Prabhupāda: It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā : Kṛṣṇa does not say that, "Millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it. Mr. Chenique: That's right. Prabhupāda: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is paramparā . Just like in India—you have been in India—there are ācāryas : Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya. If the ācārya accept, then you accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Rāmānujācārya, high quality devotee; Madhvācārya, high quality devotee; *Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says—yes. So Śaṅkarācārya says: "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Rāmānujācārya says: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvācārya says: "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ . Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā, nāsāv munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186). A muni , a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyām : it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ . Big personalities, ācāryas —that is the process. Ācāryopāsanam . What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Ācāryopāsanam : we have to understand through the ācāryas . That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā , evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa in the Tenth Chapter. (aside) Find out, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. Read it. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that translation? *Nitāi: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, and He is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, Asita, Nārada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says: "I am avatāra ," "I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the ācāryas , therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. As soon mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. So Arjuna says that paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12): "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is our point. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and . . . Kṛṣṇa comes, and He is accepted by all the great ācāryas . Then our business is perfect. (pause) So give them prasāda . Bhagavān: Yes. I have prasādam in my office. Prabhupāda: Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). *Bhagavān: Have you seen our Bhagavad*-gītā ? Prabhupāda: He saw our all books. He is a scholar. Devotee: This is a translation of Bhāgavata Purāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Devotee: In sixty volumes we will translate this. *Bhagavān: We have Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: Here it is. *Devotee: And the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, all volumes. Bhagavān: Would you like to see some of the pictures? Mr. Chenique: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanātana Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees. Bhagavān: (as prasādam is brought in) This is one of our other specialties. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). *Nitāi: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . It's a description of the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. That's in two volumes. Mr. Chenique: It's a tremendous work. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world. Nitāi: This is *Nectar of Devotion* , by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the *Purāṇas* , and he supports devotional service. Mr. Chenique: This is what you use for your devotional service? Nitāi: They're a model. Bhagavān: We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa and distributing of prasādam . And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupāda's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kīrtana in the temple. Mr. Chenique: Yes. This is why I am coming. Bhagavān: And no one is from India. (laughs) Mr. Chenique: I could see, because in India you don't find that. Jyotirmayī: Mr. Chenique wanted to ask you some questions. He's going to say in French, and I can translate. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching. Bhagavān: Do you remember this gentleman? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: He was the one who wrote that book. Prabhupāda: Herbert? Bhagavān: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Mr. Herbert? Bhagavān: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Māyāvādī, he is impersonalist. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: But if he . . . he has already written one book. He has presented me, that Kṛṣṇa . . . Bhagavān: The Yoga of Love. Prabhupāda: The Yoga of Love . So he has many times repeated the word "Kṛṣṇa." That will benefit him. (Jyotirmayī translates) Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking . . . Prabhupāda: God is person, then? What did he say? Jyotirmayī: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal? Like he said that in Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence. Just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all*-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person—sun-god, Vivasvān, he is person—he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato. By expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, this Brahman, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, tad brahma (Bs. 5.40). That Brahman. Brahman is . . . just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god. (Jyotirmayī translates) . . . and in Bhāgavata also it is stated: *The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. (Jyotirmayī translates) And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything—Brahman, Paramātmā, everything, Bhagavān." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Viṣṇu, myself, the world manifested, everything. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: You take that sweet preparation. (chuckles) Yes. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: He is asking if it is possible for young Christians . . . because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God—that in fact is not really a name—by the name Kṛṣṇa, because according to what you are explaining, God is Kṛṣṇa. So can they chant the name of Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. Kṛṣṇa is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means . . . the Sanskrit word is īśvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "The Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, īśvara , God. Everyone is god; that is another thing. But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ , the Supreme God, is Kṛṣṇa. (Jyotirmayī translates, explaining īśvara ) Supreme. We have got experience of īśvara . Just like I said, everyone is īśvara , everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also īśvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is īśvara . But these īśvaras , they are controlled by another īśvara . We are īśvara , but I am controlled by another īśvara . But īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1), He is īśvara , but He is not controlled by anyone. That is parama , supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under . . . "being" and "Supreme Being." We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way you go, if you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, He is Supreme Being. This is the idea. (Jyotirmayī translates) *Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā , mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat , "There is no more controller beyond that, Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). And in Brahma-samhita, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form, body. Govinda ādi-puruṣam. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Yogeśvara: "O conqueror of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." Prabhupāda: So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Kṛṣṇa is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. That is final God. Otherwise God . . . you will find—you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Kṛṣṇa, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattaḥ parataram. Parataram means better, or higher principle. No. (Jyotirmayī translates) Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam (BG 10.12). "You are person"— puruṣam means person— śāśvatam , "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, by Devala, by Nārada." Then it is final. (Jyotirmayī translates) *The Vedas say, therefore, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru . Vyāsadeva is the original guru . He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyāsadeva, ācāryas . So this is the instruction of the Vedas . Tad-vijñānārtham : in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet . And who is guru ? Śrotriyam , one who has heard from his guru , authorized person, śrotriyam, brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), and firmly convinced in the science of God. (Jyotirmayī translates) (Prabhupāda tells someone to open window) Yogeśvara: You can open more. Prabhupāda: Open more. Yes. You can open. Bhagavān: How does one get the experience of personal existence of God? Prabhupāda: That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject. You did not hear? Bhagavān: I was just asking. Prabhupāda: No. You are asking me or asking him? Bhagavān: No, for his benefit. (Prabhupāda laughs) You were talking experience. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Bhagavān: So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person. Mr. Chenique: No. I went through that experience, and I would like . . . I mean . . . may I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Kṛṣṇa, I said I would like much more to do so. (brief conversation in French) Jyotirmayī: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Kṛṣṇa consciousness what is missing in Christianity, to help them in their own development. Prabhupāda: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity. Mr. Chenique: (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here? Prabhupāda: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter) Mr. Chenique: But then there is no need to dress as you dress. Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Chenique: Why do you dress in that way, which is an Indian way and not the European way? Prabhupāda: Then why Christian go there? Mr. Chenique: They should not. Prabhupāda: Then we should not. Mr. Chenique: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong. Prabhupāda: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and . . . (indistinct) . . .? Therefore anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say. Mr. Chenique: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian. Prabhupāda: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe? Mr. Chenique: True. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot say that, "Why you have come here?" You cannot say. Jyotirmayī: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians? Prabhupāda: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you dress. Did I say that you do it? Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a . . . (indistinct) . . . priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them. I don't know if you have been to . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that, "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. It is like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that, "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there? Priest: It's not wrong; it's funny. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rather, these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your coun . . . way. Priest: That I am . . . (indistinct) . . . for it. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it? Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhotī and . . . Prabhupāda: But we are not concerned with the dress; we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding. That's all. Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock? Jyotirmayī: No, he's not here yet . . . (indistinct) Priest: Have you got any French literature of conception . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: French literature. He's asking for French literature. (French) (break) Jyotirmayī: He translated the Tukārāma in French. Priest: Tukārāma. Prabhupāda: Tukārāma. Tukārāma is great Vaiṣṇava devotee of Maharashtra. His movement was saṅkīrtana movement. Devotee: He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: This was southern India? Southern India? Priest: Maharashtra. Prabhupāda: Maharashtra, yes. Southwest. Priest: For the north it is south and the south it is . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: ( japa ) Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God Devotee: And also that . . . Prabhupāda: Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son? Devotee: They talk about the Trilogy—the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It is like, compared like the Father . . . Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, Paramātmā and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11), it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is that not explained? Devotee: It's on His right hand. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated. Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all personal ideas. Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: Hmm? "Hallowed be Thy name." Devotee: "Hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Devotee: They're praising the name of the Lord. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following. (Jyotirmayī briefly translates into French for guests) *Prabhupāda: Muhammadanism also Vaiṣṇavism, because Muhammad says: "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dāsya*-rasa, dāsya. Śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya, mādhurya . So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer—both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dāsyam sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. So we don't say that, "This is bad" and "This is good." No. Both of them are bhakti . To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes: Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrūra, the example is given. Akrūra got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? This is also prayer, our prayer, prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa, "O Kṛṣṇa, O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra . Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in Your service." That's it. So that is vandana . So vandana , and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," asking something for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, "Engage me in Your service," little advanced. Because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs. *So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā , ārto arthārthī jñānī ca, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārtaḥ (BG 7.16). Ārtaḥ means distress, ārtaḥ , one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say: "Ah. Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say: "No, sir." "Now pray to us." Then "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have brought this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured. That is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit, that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you . . . eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), He is supplying food for everyone. If He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. *So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Kṛṣṇa or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gītā : imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha (BG 4.1), "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god." The sun*-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being. He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). He is the origin of everything. And He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata . (aside) Find out this verse. Find out. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Nitāi: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." *Prabhupāda: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God. That is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs, because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ , there is dharma , some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā . If somebody says: "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him. It is very . . ." they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam , the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.74). So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi . . . (aside) Find out this verse: *This tattva*-darśinaḥ means experience. What is that? Nitāi: *"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self*-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Nitāi: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam says: dharmaṁ hi sākṣād*-bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19)—the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect." Prabhupāda: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacārī āśrama . (aside) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries? (break) . . . record? Devotee: Which record? Bhagavān: From this afternoon, the recording. Devotee: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Play now. Find out. Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got? Satsvarūpa: I think so. French man: (French) Jyotirmayī: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion. Prabhupāda: No. We are recommending, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that. (Jyotirmayī translates) French man: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Christianity God has no name. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jyotirmayī: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ. So they chant . . . Prabhupāda: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No? (Jyotirmayī translates) French man: No. Prabhupāda: But you said that His name be glorified. Devotee: They say: "Hallowed be Thy name." Mr. Chenique: But the name is not said. Devotee: Yes. Mr. Chenique: They have not said it. Devotee: Jesus said that, "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says: "but there is more to be told." Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Kṛṣṇa"? (Jyotirmayī translates) What is the objection? French man: (French) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis . *Bahudhā : God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Kṛṣṇa is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śakti tatrārpitā . That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvān nāma-nāminoḥ (CC Madhya 17.133). Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken? (Jyotirmayī translates) Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but you can take "Rāma," you can take "Paraśurāma," you can take "Nṛsiṁha." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, any name, any name. Mr. Chenique: Kṛṣṇa has no special . . . Prabhupāda: No. Special there is. In this way: it is recommended in the śāstra , recommended in the śāstra, harer nāma. Harer means of God. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So this is the . . . we have . . . have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaiṣṇava. Mr. Chenique: Does it matter . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra*-nāma, viṣṇu sahasra . But in another place it is said, other Upaniṣad , Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma . . . this name is recommended. Just like Agni Purāṇa and Kalisantaraṇa Upaniṣad , in this Vedic literature, this . . . Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but each Upaniṣad will recommend its own, I mean, specific deity, you know. Rāma, as you say, Hare Rāma. Or Śiva. Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāma is all right. Rāma we chant. Hare Rāma we chant. Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma. Rāma also we chant. Yes. Mr. Chenique: Or Śiva. I mean, you see, in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in the *Bhāgavatam*, kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya . . . (SB 12.3.51). Mr. Chenique: I mean, whatever it is. You have got bhakti also in the Śaivites, all the advanced . . . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument . . . if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name. Mr. Chenique: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The idea is that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to . . . Prabhupāda: Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Harer nāma means God's name. Mr. Chenique: You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti , and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had the Jesus bhakti . And in your country, in America today, like you have got Hare Kṛṣṇa, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, is it also very present in many places. And the name does not matter, you know? There is no name who has got the . . . because then you find again what . . . Prabhupāda: No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but I mean, this is another point. Prabhupāda: But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name? Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but this is another discussion . . . (indistinct) . . . what we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it . . . Prabhupāda: That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says . . . just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son. Mr. Chenique: Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name. Prabhupāda: Yes. (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son? Mr. Chenique: No, it is not that question. The question is . . . Devotee: Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Kṛṣṇa is a very common name . . . Mr. Chenique: Yeah. Devotee: . . . in the sense that many people may be called Kṛṣṇa. But the Supreme God is also called Kṛṣṇa. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme. Mr. Chenique: Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name. Devotee: That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching, "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing. Prabhupāda: Now if you think that Jesus Christ's name is also . . . you can chant, we have no objection we have no. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right. Priest: And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah. Prabhupāda: Yes. Priest: Name Kṛṣṇa, Allah, Jesus . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the . . . Prabhupāda: Allah, Allah. Allah is not name. That is written . . . it is not the name. It is just like the idea of God. Priest: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Allah means God, īśvara . Priest: Allah means also . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But that is not the name. That is . . . just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person also. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So "President" is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name. Mr. Chenique: Do you know the Sufi? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mr. Chenique: Do you know the Sufis are Muslims . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No. Mr. Chenique: They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say . . . Prabhupāda: Allah means God. *Mr. Chenique: Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah, the all*-knowing, is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that. Prabhupāda: Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant. That's all. Yogeśvara: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the *Padma Purāṇa* , about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram , which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting " ha rāma ," which means "Where is Lord Rāma?" so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation. Prabhupāda: Although he did not mean Rāma, he condemned the boar as haram , "condemned," but the . . . Mr. Chenique: Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharashtra of the hunter. Prabhupāda: Yes, may be the same story. Mr. Chenique: Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then . . . it is a common story. Prabhupāda: Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." That's all. (end) Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris) Yogeśvara: Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the Law House of Paris. Prabhupāda: Law House means legislative assembly? No. Yogeśvara: It is part of the National Assembly? M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National . . . yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like we have in our country "Legislative Assembly." (Yogeśvara and Pṛthu*-putra translate Prabhupāda's comments into French throughout) M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) Yes, like that. Prabhupāda: But they're not necessarily lawyers. M. Mesman: (French) Prabhupāda: We are also lawyer—not in the material sense—but we know what is the law of God. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks what are our activities in France. Prabhupāda: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what are we doing for that. Nitāi: What ways are we doing that? *Pṛthu*-putra: In which way, what ways, how? Prabhupāda: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear, and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: This gentleman ask if the disciples have to give up their religion. If, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee. Prabhupāda: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand. Not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have temple in French . . . in France, or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it? *Prabhupāda: Any way. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is . . . you show Bhagavad*-gītā . (devotees show books) And all other books also show him. *Pṛthu*-putra: He already know this. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says unfortunately, he doesn't read English. Prabhupāda: Here is French, French language. Bhagavān: (explains in French about number of books distributed) M. Mesman: (French) Bhagavān: We have practical political philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program? *Prabhupāda: Our . . . we have not only political program, but we have got political and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think . . . just like in your body there are four division: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first*-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated . . . (aside) Find out, śamo damas titikṣā . *Yogeśvara: (to Pṛthu*-putra) You want to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates) *Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society: the first*-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses . . . (aside) Hmm. Read. Yes. Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first*-class man. Yogeśvara: (aside) Would you like to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates verse) *Prabhupāda: With all these qualification, one can become first*-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class . . . Bhagavān: (correcting translator) "These people should be . . ." Prabhupāda said "these people." *Pṛthu*-putra: (corrects translation) *Prabhupāda: A class of men, first*-class men . . . M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says we say: "They should be," which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation. *Prabhupāda: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is . . . Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first*-class men to lead the human society. Then next class . . . the head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated . . . Yogeśvara: Nitāi? Prabhupāda: Teja . . . what is that? Nitāi: It's, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Teja . No? Nitāi: Śauryam . . . *"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas ." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) *Prabhupāda: Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Nitāi: *"Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others." (Pṛthu-putra translates) *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras , fourth*-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth class. Democracy means selected, I mean to . . . voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore there are so many anomalies. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this concept is against the . . . Yogeśvara: Traditional Western capitalism. *Pṛthu*-putra: The traditional Western capitalists. Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea? *Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first class, second class, third class, fourth class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth*-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first class, second class, third class . . . they're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the . . . as to keep the body fit we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gītā and . . . Prabhupāda: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages. M. Mesman: English? Prabhupāda: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France. Bhagavān: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple. Prabhupāda: Dedicated devotees, hundred. M. Mesman: (French) *Yogeśvara: If one is a full*-time disciple . . . Prabhupāda: He's dedicated disciple. Yogeśvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here? Prabhupāda: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris, or they are a little bit everywhere . . . Yogeśvara: Explain there's traveling parties. *Bhagavān: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (Pṛthu*-putra translates) M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have a school in France. Prabhupāda: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: This school is for all ages, or just for children? *Prabhupāda: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are . . . other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy, Ph.D. Beginning from A*-B-C-D up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books. Yogeśvara: "Did you write all these books?" Prabhupāda: That you can say. What can I . . .? Yogeśvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?" Bhagavān: Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word*-meaning. Then I combine with reference to the modern society how they can be applicable to the modern life. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but many Frenchmen came to see me, and . . . Yogeśvara: Last year, at Hotel de Ville. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel de Ville. Prabhupāda: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publication that will come. Yes? Hmm. (someone enters with a plate of prasādam) Bhagavān: This you can explain prasādam, prasādam . *Pṛthu*-putra: (explains about prasādam ) Prabhupāda: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two, three things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparation out of that. From milk and grains and sugar . . . and? What else? *Pṛthu*-putra: Fruit, vegetables. Bhagavān: Fruits. Prabhupāda: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take. Yogeśvara: Maybe you can also explain that this . . . Prabhupāda: What is this preparation, explain. You explain. Yogeśvara: This is burfī . M. Mesman: C'est bon . Bhagavān: This is cake, cookie. Prabhupāda: No, not cookie. It is burfī , like . . . what is this made of? Bhagavān: This is . . . Jyotirmayī: This is sandeśa . *Prabhupāda: Oh, sandeśa . It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa , you give him one more. (M. Mesman laughs) So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparation, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk we make hundreds of preparation. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh*-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh—everything, whatever he likes—because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free, without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. *So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pound. One thousand pound daily in our one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparation from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our program, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh*-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. M. Mesman: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is a French . . . Yogeśvara: Saying. *Pṛthu*-putra: A French saying that says: "We don't have to kill the cow's milk." Yogeśvara: "The cow who gives milk." *Pṛthu*-putra: The cow who gives milk. Yogeśvara: One should not kill . . . that's a French saying. Prabhupāda: Ah! Yogeśvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow? Yogeśvara: It's a proverb. *Pṛthu*-putra: Proverb. Yogeśvara: Saying. Prabhupāda: Problem? Yogeśvara: Proverb. Prabhupāda: So put into action this proverb. So that is . . . you are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives . . .? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead . . . (break) . . . free of charges. M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him. Prabhupāda: So kindly do this service. Kṛṣṇa will bless you. M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . *Prabhupāda: . . . giving to the vultures. Let the flesh*-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs) Yogeśvara: It would ruin the economy. Prabhupāda: Economy? What is that economy? Yogeśvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the Communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good . . . Prabhupāda: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day, forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We recommend the meat*-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't . . . you eat it—after death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right, you eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures. Yogeśvara: Śakuni . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni , yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture*-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animal, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas , and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men they are, leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. Eh? All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first-, second-, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Who is . . . who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth class, less than fourth class. Fourth class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principle. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principle, just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena . . . (SB 6.1.13). The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama , controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly . . . so the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. *Human life means controlling. I give this example: just like in the . . . in your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animal, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something, "Get out." Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money, so I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principle is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left," "Keep to the right," for . . . this is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere, but he's not criminal, because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately he's criminal. Human society means to abide first*-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life, Freud. What is this Freud? Yogeśvara: Sigmund Freud. Prabhupāda: The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing. Yogeśvara: There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's granddaughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying: "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing. *Prabhupāda: He's ad . . . she's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth*-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing. They are leaders. Then, what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. Nitāi: "Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the deliverer from evils." Prabhupāda: Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon, a big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound) " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " (laughter) That's all. Is it not? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's true. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and " Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! " Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by . . . that is stated here, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ . The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals, that's all, small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now, na yat-karṇa . . . karṇa-pathet, upeta . . .? Nitāi: Upeto . Prabhupāda: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal. Nitāi: Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ. Prabhupāda: Jātu . What is . . .? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport? *Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the levels of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so*-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service . . ." Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street. Bhagavān: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D.'s who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck driver and taxi driver. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class, too, the professors. They're the educated class of people. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not brāhmin . Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmins . Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that, "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. "I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear." We are not asking money that, "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad*-gītā ." We never say so. So those . . . these so-called teachers, they first of all settle up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. A brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money, but I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business. Bhagavān: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly, or else they will be fired and get no salary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras . That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise . . . it is straight commandment, "Thou shall not kill." And because people are killing, they're . . . now they are giving man*-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception . . . at least, outside America nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is their standard? Yogeśvara: (referring to guest) Did he say anything before he left? *Jyotirmayī: Yeah, he said that he was in the . . . he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow*-killing. So he said . . . *Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparation. Then, so far meat*-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that, "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow, which is just like mother, if they're even willing to practically kill their parents? Prabhupāda: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that, "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough. They're eating so much beef. Prabhupāda: No, fast, fast . . . fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cow is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take its milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society. Yogeśvara: If they don't kill it, there'll even be more cows. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: . . . there'll be even more cows. *Prabhupāda: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that, "Don't . . ." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the . . . how long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. So where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go*-rakṣya . That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. "Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing," it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows . . . and you see, they're . . . our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows, because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that, "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning. Bhagavān: He gave a proverb. Prabhupāda: Rather, he supported. Bhagavān: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten year, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole humankind. But these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed, amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, " Dung! dung! " and kill you, be kill you. You know. You showed me? Bhagavān: Yeah, French guillotine. *Prabhupāda: You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestant. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child, abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat*-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta . Where is Nitāi? Bhagavān: They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get born, their mother kills them. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story? Nitāi: The . . .? Prabhupāda: Vyādha . The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Nitāi: Which . . .? *Prabhupāda: This twenty*-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā. Nitāi: No, I don't think it's typed yet. Prabhupāda: What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there. Yogeśvara: Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you . . . mām . . . this meaning, the flesh, in Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating, that this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. He'll be given the opportunity to kill you. And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that, "You are giving your life before Goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, Goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that, "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra , who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra . While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra . The priest will say in the ear that, "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra . Yogeśvara: Māṁ sa . Prabhupāda: Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. Nitāi: That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it . . . she'll type it today or tomorrow. Prabhupāda: There these things are discussed. Yogeśvara: The story of Mṛgāri and . . .? *Prabhupāda: In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat*-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows. Bhagavān: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects . . . *Prabhupāda: How they'll understand, all dull*-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate . A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter) Bhagavān: That's intelligent. Jyotirmayī: When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very big actress—she's known all over the world—she's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try. Prabhupāda: This mayor, mayor . . .? This mayor? Yogeśvara: This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her. Bhagavān: What about him? (laughter) Yogeśvara: He is more interested in . . . Prabhupāda: What did he say about himself? *Jyotirmayī: It's when I asked him. I asked him, "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow*-killing?" So he said: "Oh . . . but there is this actress." Just give it . . . gave it to someone else to do. *Prabhupāda: No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). So we must take to agricultural work, to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee , you can start so many restaurants. That I have already . . . I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. You'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably, without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is our program. Yogeśvara: We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed? Satsvarūpa: Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole Society. Prabhupāda: Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā . We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachorīs, siṅgāra, purī, halavā and so many other things, jurī , and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the . . . that every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So, so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more. Yogeśvara: Same. Prabhupāda: Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time . . . that's a in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction, charge is the same. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās . (laughter) Prabhupāda: That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow. Bhagavān: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says: "I want to eat some fruits," "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata . If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop he'll bring one, what is called . . .? Bhagavān: A bowl? Prabhupāda: Bowl, big bowl. Or it is . . . what do you call, where you keep water? Bhagavān: Pot. *Prabhupāda: Basin, basin. So one basinful rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food, they'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin . . . rice was nothing. Rice . . . in our childhood, we have seen, two annas per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basinful rice, it doesn't cost even one anna . So by giving one- anna *-worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees' cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger . . . one saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama , because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama , and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here," just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama . He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya : "They are my men; *don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog, that's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair, one man has trained—I think most of you have seen—one tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that, "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Ṭhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that, "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. *These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma*-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally what is important they do not know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said, Prabhupāda, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized. Prabhupāda: That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everything is there. Prabhupāda: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī . We have no such objection. *Yogeśvara: I can remember now, when I was in college there were so many groups trying to reform the young people—the YMCA, the church groups—so many different social*-working groups trying to make young people become more . . . not so restless, not so much wild. But no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy, because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said: "Oh, he's the one, there." Prabhupāda: Is there any other meeting? *Jyotirmayī: Yes, but it will be later. It will be at six*-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming will be a psychiatrist. Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya . All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hari*-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Should I distribute this to the devotees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes. Prabhupāda: Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. (end) Conversation A -- June 12, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature) Jyotirmayī: . . . in France amongst the Communist students, the Communist Indian students. And I said that he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things on the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he became very interested. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Where is Karandhara? Devotee: He's coming. *Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa that, "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram . . . (aside) Read out this. This is the process of peacefulness: when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of all lokas , all worlds, and Kṛṣṇa is the best friend of everyone. (aside) Get the light. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both side. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism. Yogeśvara: In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is, whether it be imperialist, whether it be Communist . . . religious sentiment is found . . . Prabhupāda: What is religious sentiment? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Jyotirmayī: He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and of course there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling now, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now . . . and then he said that . . . Prabhupāda: Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: (to devotees) Do you understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation. *Pṛthu*-putra: Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad-gītā . The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā . Prabhupāda: Who? *Pṛthu*-putra: The Communists and the imperialists. And he said some names . . . Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: Rajagopalacharya. *Jyotirmayī: This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism, you know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. But you find people referring Bhagavad*-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there. Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges. Prabhupāda: So? The Communist does not? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references. Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the Communists that killed them? Prabhupāda: Eh? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the Communists who killed them? Prabhupāda: Communists killed others? Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas . But still they have been arresting forty thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges. Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. Roger Maria: (French) Devotee: What he's trying to say is that some people are using . . . Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now. Prabhupāda: But you cannot think . . . you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: (aside) Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become . . .? Bhagavān: They're calling Africa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure. Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it. Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. Roger Maria: (French) Devotee: (to Prabhupāda while others speak in French) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja. Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good. Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion. Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he says that, "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, the day*-to-day life? What good brings religion in the life?" Yogeśvara: He said: "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion," he says: "the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words." He says: "The important thing is how it is lived, how people live their . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. The practice. It is practiced . . . those who are real religionists, they practice it. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion not only on the individual platform, but on the social platform. Prabhupāda: No, we are teaching. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion. Prabhupāda: No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles. Prabhupāda: What is his experience of religion? Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians—for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he said that his idea is that advaita*-Vedānta philosophy is the best in the world. Prabhupāda: What is that advaita ? What is that advaita ? Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that advaita*-Vedānta . . . *Prabhupāda: What is that advaita*-veda philosophy? Let him define. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: Advaita . A means "without." Dvaita . . . Prabhupāda: "Without"? *Yogeśvara: "Not." Dvaita means dual. So non*-dual. *Jyotirmayī: Non*-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita . Prabhupāda: So what is that one? Roger Maria: (French) *Yogeśvara: So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non*-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things—there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you. Jyotirmayī: Creator. *Yogeśvara: . . . that there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non*-dual philosophy, is very nice on the political or social level as well, since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything. Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita . So monism, what is the center of monism? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot . . . if you have no objective, then you cannot live in oneness. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: (aside) I'm feeling hot. (indistinct reply by devotee) Yogeśvara: He says . . . Prabhupāda: Yes? Yogeśvara: . . . that before . . . he says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for . . . Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti : "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not. Prabhupāda: That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti : "It is not" defining. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: You better translate that one. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that the answer of that is very often come, it doesn't have to come, with a name of God, because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying: "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying: "I'd rather not say that, because that's too mystical." Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti . So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth, then we discuss the other, subordinate things. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: All those other things like political and otherwise are all just details. The first thing, you should have to find the center. (aside) You translate that. Prabhupāda: Neti neti means . . . "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. Roger Maria: (French with devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, guest makes a long speech) Bhagavān: (to devotees) The first thing is, he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he said . . . what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form, because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer. Prabhupāda: Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: Well, he says still we can give it some form for discussion purposes. Prabhupāda: Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: (French translation) He suggests, "Well, in that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is . . ." *Prabhupāda: But he raised that Absolute Truth is non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Tat tvam asi. He's saying: "We are that." *Prabhupāda: So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non*-dualism, neti neti ? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says: "For the time being, let us become silent"? Bhagavān: Yes, he's saying . . . oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying: "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet." Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the point. Bhagavān: He's just saying: "Let's get rid of . . ." (to guest) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet, because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet. *Pṛthu*-putra: Then he said that . . . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride. Bhagavān: The question is, "What is he aiming at?" Prabhupāda: Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: His main point when he quotes Bhagavad*-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just, you know, sentiment, philosophy. It is active. Yogeśvara: Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says:"Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion, which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point." Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā . It is not like that. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you for the work that you are doing, because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people, or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: So I think, if I understood correctly . . . Prabhupāda: I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right. *Pṛthu*-putra: He wasn't appreciating exactly. Bhagavān: Did he appreciate? First of all . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: He wasn't appreciating what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian . . . with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it . . .? Bhagavān: Francend . (name of paper) Jyotirmayī: Franscend . *Pṛthu*-putra: Franscend . He says there is many svāmī and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the Western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be . . . who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or just like some kind of a dream, just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point. *Prabhupāda: But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty*-four hours' engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He thinks that the people in Western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect. Prabhupāda: Very good. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And he says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions. Prabhupāda: Yes. In . . . the idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal, original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the Western religion. Bhagavān: What is that? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the Christian or the Western religion are marked by dogmatists, and they are very . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: And they have imperialist conception. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Yogeśvara: He says that Western religions are narrow*-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have, in India for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion. Prabhupāda: No. First . . . therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we can't say . . . his point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti-yoga , by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga , by action. There's jñāna-yoga , by knowledge. He says if in Western countries we propagate bhakti-yoga , we take the risk of using it, bhakti-yoga , like a drug or something like this, as if you are dreaming or something like that. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Bhakti*-yoga by drugs? *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, he made the statement . . . Prabhupāda: That is . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: . . . according to the state of the French people in right now, in this time. Prabhupāda: But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) *Karandhara: What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti*-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practice, they're against bhakti*-yoga . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that bhakti*-yoga's an escape. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jyotirmayī: Bhakti*-yoga brings to escaping one's responsibility. *Prabhupāda: Then he does not know what is bhakti*-yoga . He does not know. Roger Maria: (French) *Prabhupāda: Arjuna did not escape. He was trying to escape, but by bhakti*-yoga he was captured. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the Bhagavad-gītā is a . . . Jyotirmayī: He says it's a work which is very, very practical and rational. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti*-yoga . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that Anu*-gītā is also a very practical work. *Prabhupāda: No Anu*-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti , Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose. Prabhupāda: No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he choose Ramakrishna. He choose all the seigneur . . . Prabhupāda: But they, all of them . . . *Pṛthu*-putra: He reject Aurobindo . . . Prabhupāda: I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Now, this Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way, and it excludes . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. He . . . Yogeśvara: . . . Siddheshvarananda. *Pṛthu*-putra: That's another teacher. *Prabhupāda: No, you cannot . . . if you are referring to Kṛṣṇa, if you are referring to Bhagavad*-gītā , so why don't you take it originally? (break) Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, this is the answer, he says, from Ramakrishna. When you have a thorn in your foot, you take another thorn and you pluck it out, and afterwards, you throw them both away. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā does not say. Bhagavad-gītā says that, "You surrender unto Me, and sustain this." Therefore he has misled. He did not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā , and he misled so many fools. That is his business. One thing is, Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja . And Ramakrishna says that, "You can accept any path." So this is against Bhagavad-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says of the two choices, he likes Ramakrishna's better. Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But if he says that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," why he should be different? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says to accommodate, to accommodate them. *Prabhupāda: No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and Ramakrishna says that, "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said . . . his name was Gadadhar Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion: how to live. He says the interpretation is not so . . . Prabhupāda: But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: I think one . . . if I've understood, he's insisting on one point, that is that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the *Gītā* in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public. Prabhupāda: Who is that public? Amongst you, who accept Ramakrishna? *Pṛthu*-putra: He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time . . . *Karandhara: Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad*-gītā , but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization? Bhagavān: He said . . . and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was . . . Karandhara: Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people. Prabhupāda: No. Karandhara: What mass? Prabhupāda: That is false. Karandhara: Ramakrishna's popular in the West because of his skillful propaganda . . . Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, "Well, in a sense, we have to accept that Ramakrishna was expressing the sentiments of the public because he lived amongst the public." Prabhupāda: No, that is his false understanding. Karandhara: Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler . . . Hitler lived amongst the public too, and he was a . . . Prabhupāda: No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousand, twenty thousand people, every day come to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belur Math, or somewhere else—nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousand, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the Western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridwar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea that it is for the mass, it is false. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he was talking about the time of Ramakrishna, when Ramakrishna was there . . . Prabhupāda: That, everything, bubble comes and goes away. It is no meaning. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says numbers aren't really very important. It's like a . . . Jyotirmayī: It's not a proof. Yogeśvara: It's not a proof, just numbers. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says but that's not a proof, just to say that there are greater numbers. Karandhara: He was trying to submit it as a proof just a minute ago. Prabhupāda: Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says: "Mass of people," and again he says: "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now . . . now we have to . . . he was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved: they're not, the mass of people, not at all interested . . . that I have proved. That is my answer. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna. Prabhupāda: What is the mass of people mean? Yogeśvara: He says Ramakrishna, whether he knew it or not, he was expressing a sentiment of the people at that time. Prabhupāda: At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's . . . Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's not the person important in this example; it's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there. Prabhupāda: Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28): "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted. Karandhara: No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time. Prabhupāda: So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. And that will not appeal. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument, because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume, a synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform . . . the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people. Prabhupāda: The people's representative is different from God's representative. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, "Well, that's a belief. You have to believe that." He said that's only a belief. Prabhupāda: No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that that's dangerous, because then we run the risk of having people who say: "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God," and they're actually only interested personal, private interest. Prabhupāda: No, if . . . if people . . . not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that, "You all not giving God's opinion"? God said, Kṛṣṇa said that, "You surrender to Me," and if I say that, "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence, we must stick to the words of God without interpreting. (aside) Is that what he said? Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. That we want. Bhagavān: (to translators) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. Prabhupāda: If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is some deviation, some interpretation by some philosophers or sages. They deviate . . . Prabhupāda: One who deviates is not a sage; he's a thief. *Pṛthu*-putra: Yeah, it's what he says. I'm just translating his words. Prabhupāda: No, if he deviates from the words of God, then he is not a sage. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, well, the thing that he appreciates in Hinduism is its openness and its tolerance to so many different paths and so many different interpretations. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But to abide by the orders of God, that is another thing. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says then we've made the full turn again. We've come back to the beginning. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He said so we've actually come back to the beginning of our discussion again, which is that real religion has to be judged by the actions of men. Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can judge. Here is the action of the men. Now the young men and boys and girls are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And who is taking to Ramakrishna? Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Bhagavān: So he is a man of action, and here we have a movement of action which is solving all problems of the world. What's his complaint? It's not a dream. It's actually by following this movement, we're solving all problems. So what does he have to say? If he follows exactly what Kṛṣṇa says, then all the problems will be solved. So why doesn't he follow what Kṛṣṇa says? Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He received information. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Pṛthu*-putra: He received information that to follow, with some interest, that to follow what Kṛṣṇa says and like that, we can solve problems. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And personally, he respects you. *Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's all right. But thing is that we must know that he has spoken about Ramakrishna and Aurobindo. They also center their propaganda on Kṛṣṇa. Just like I already told, Ramakrishna said: "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." That means he takes to Kṛṣṇa. Aurobindo, he has written Life Divine. That is his explanation of Bhagavad*-gītā . He takes to Kṛṣṇa. This Maharishi, he has also presented Bhagavad-gītā; he's taken to Kṛṣṇa. So their importance is by taking to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, they are valueless, nobody. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for him, that's not really a problem. He says rather than referring to the person Kṛṣṇa, he just goes directly to the teaching of the *Gītā* , and he profits from that. *Prabhupāda: No, teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. Roger Maria: (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: So his point is that, well, ultimately the . . . now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? What did he . . .? Why he come here? What for? Yogeśvara: We invited him. (laughter) Roger Maria: (French) *Devotee: Well, at the end of Bhagavad*-gītā , Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: He says: "Give up all this religiousness and surrender to Me." The whole purport of the Bhagavad*-gītā . He's telling Arjuna to fight, but ultimately, in the end, He's saying: "Just forget about all these ideas you have in your head, and surrender to Me." Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: "Me" means Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Right. Prabhupāda: So then Kṛṣṇa is everything. Devotee: Mām ekam. *Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." So anyone who has studied Bhagavad*-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he accepts that as being . . . he says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions. Prabhupāda: But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas . Bhagavān: This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. *Prabhupāda: India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācārya . Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam . So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas . Anyone you'll find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya . So all the ācārya accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Roger Maria: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says all the Christian and all the priest, that they tell to him from . . . that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says no. Yogeśvara: Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it. Karandhara: The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they . . . it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify. Yogeśvara: And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem. Prabhupāda: Now . . . now, what is his problem? That he did never disclose. Yogeśvara: Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live. Prabhupāda: So he has got his opinion; I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything will be solved. Does he agree? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence . . ." Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: So . . . Yogeśvara: So he says: "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion, just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says: "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work." Prabhupāda: No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: But what practical thing is he doing? *Pṛthu*-putra: What he says, what he says . . . he's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel. Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad*-gītā , and people are very, very interested. *Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad*-gītā . *Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad*-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: What is that? *Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad*-gītā or presents Bhagavad-gītā to people, he doesn't tell them that, "This is the word of God, and you just have to accept it." *Prabhupāda: That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad*-gītā . That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā . Roger Maria: (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he says that he thinks the same about us, that we are also not understanding perfectly Bhagavad*-gītā . Prabhupāda: Then let him understand from us. Yogeśvara: No, he says he thinks that we don't understand. Bhagavān: (simultaneously with Yogeśvara) He thinks that we don't understand. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says that he thinks that we have not perfectly understood. Prabhupāda: So let us discuss who understands—you or me. So who will decide? You are understanding or I am understanding—who'll decide? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Who will decide it? *Bhagavān: So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā . We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want? Prabhupāda: Religious problem—any problem. Bhagavān: No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. Roger Maria: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: Now, this question . . . listen. Our Bhagavān dāsa says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better? Bhagavān: And anyone who joins us loses all his problems. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says then that's very serious, because if you have no problems, that means you are trying to escape from the world, because there world is full of problems. Prabhupāda: We are in the Paris City. How we have escaped from the world? (laughter) We have got branches in London, in Paris, in New York and big, big cities, and all these boys are coming from big, big cities. How they have escaped? It is not justice. If you says that, "They have escaped," that is wrong statement. We are not escaping anything. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: What kind of proof are you looking for? Let's talk about proof. What kind of proof are you looking for? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Now, another point is, he's accusing us that we're escaping. Why he's escaping Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: He says he thinks that what we're doing is simply a kind of medicine that doesn't actually resolve the problems that people are facing. Prabhupāda: If it is not result, then how this boy says: "We have no problem"? The patient says that he has cured, and you say that it is not curing? Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: (to translators) So repeat to Prabhupāda what he said. Roger Maria: (French) Bhagavān: We have proof that anyone from any part of the world who takes to this process loses his problems. It's not a matter of Western or Eastern. Roger Maria: (French) Yogeśvara: With your permission, he would like to take leave. Prabhupāda: Why? He should stay with us. Let us conclude. Why you are flying away? We have started one discussion. Let it be finished. Why you are going away? Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: That means he is escaping. Yogeśvara: He says because he works in the evenings. He's a theater critic. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Some way or other, he's escaping. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: A man . . . Yogeśvara: With pleasure, he would like to come back to finish the discussion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Roger Maria: (French) Jyotirmayī: And with friendship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. That's it. Don't escape. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: When we have begun the discussion, let us finish. Don't escape. Roger Maria: (French) Prabhupāda: Thank you. Haribol. Jaya. Thank you. Bhagavān: Make sure he has some more prasādam before he goes. Jyotirmayī: I'll bring it. (guest leaves) Prabhupāda: (aside) Hmm, open. Paramahaṁsa: (to devotees outside room) . . . Prabhupāda is very tired. He's just finished a long evening. Prabhupāda: So when there is discussion, you should all be present. It is very interesting. Those who are our men, GBC men, they must know. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They come in like Keśī demon, and they go out with prasādam in their mouth. (laughter) Prabhupāda: They are escaping. We are not escaping. We want to capture everyone. (laughter) He has no clear idea what is the aim of life. Yogeśvara: He likes to see people engaged in work that is humanitarian, that will resolve the problems of the world. Prabhupāda: That everyone says. All rascals says like that, "humanitarian." He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or Communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and Communist. This is their humanitarian work. *Devotee: He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad*-gītā in a certain way, like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is . . . Prabhupāda: Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: They're trying to interpret that Kṛṣṇa is just our own intelligence or . . . Bhagavān: The point is even when they see the practical proof, they don't accept it. They're so stubborn. Prabhupāda: You be strong. Don't be . . . they cannot conquer us. But you be more strong. (end) Conversation A -- June 13, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru's) M. Deshimaru: (French) (translating for M. Deshimaru throughout) Yogeśvara: He thinks that . . . he suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (Prabhupada's comments translated throughout by Yogeśvara) M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "This force is the soul." Prabhupāda: Yes. So soul is a person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He's confused, how? What do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person. Prabhupāda: Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person. Yogeśvara: His question is—well how is it that the soul is also a person? Prabhupāda: Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference—that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one. Prabhupāda: Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat: it is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that, well, to . . . he doesn't see the application. He says if we're just . . . Prabhupāda: Why not application? Why not application? Yogeśvara: He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not. Prabhupāda: Because he has got different dress, different person. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: So he's asking: Well, therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering? Prabhupāda: That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all . . . just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (aside) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it. *Pṛthu*-putra: (correcting Yogeśvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. "If you receive an arrows." You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body, because that's the cause of suffering . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks? Satsvarūpa: I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man, Bhagavān dāsa? These important talks going on and you do not . . . you think that you have learned everything. What is this? Yogeśvara: This young gentleman's question is: If you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it. Prabhupāda: No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows. Yogeśvara: That is his point also. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self. Prabhupāda: Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes, he must understand that he is crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. He must know . . . he may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate. *Pṛthu*-putra: His point . . . he says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity . . . Prabhupāda: So the insanity is just like you are dressed, and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance. Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese," "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body, he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: They believe that the soul and the body is one thing. Prabhupāda: How it is one? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated. Prabhupāda: How the man becomes dead? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force. Yogeśvara: Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth. Prabhupāda: Merges? Yogeśvara: Just like a flower grows from the earth . . . Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies . . . (break) M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer. Prabhupāda: Zen philosophy answer? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything. Prabhupāda: And what you are now? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: And now he is himself. Now he is different. Prabhupāda: So how you became from zero? *Pṛthu*-putra: No, he don't say he is different. He says: "Now I am myself." (French with guest) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same. Prabhupāda: Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the man is there. The suffering is there. Prabhupāda: No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero beginning, and he will be zero, and now he is also zero. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect, everything is zero. But there is another aspect—there is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem. Prabhupāda: Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter) Karandhara: Just dying, that solves all the problems. Prabhupāda: No, he said that is natural. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says religious life is a very deep thing on man, and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it don't matter. He has to search. Prabhupāda: No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says actually he doesn't start from zero; he starts from this cosmic force. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force. Prabhupāda: That means . . . you cannot define, that means your knowledge is imperfect. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down . . . Yogeśvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. He says a human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force. Prabhupāda: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease: unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. M. Deshimaru: (French with Yogeśvara) *Yogeśvara: (to Pṛthu*-putra) Maybe you can translate that. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says one thing—we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . what is the cause of the suffering? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself. Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge. Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? M. Deshimaru: (French with Yogeśvara) Yogeśvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate, because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant. Prabhupāda: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this knowledge is there anywhere, for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested. Prabhupāda: No, why . . .? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance. Prabhupāda: What is that something? Do you know it? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He called this things God. That is God. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Well, all right, that's okay. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering." Prabhupāda: Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says but you are suffering still. Prabhupāda: I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question. Prabhupāda: No, we are not choosing. God is asking to do this. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result. Prabhupāda: No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside to devotee) Go. Take sleep. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? Why doesn't everyone just kill themselves? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says from the medical point, that's all right. But from the religious point . . . Prabhupāda: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life . . . Prabhupāda: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy. Karandhara: But . . . Prabhupāda: Real. The premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens. Prabhupāda: That is also desire, to give up all desire. Karandhara: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: That is also desire M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori , without anything, then he is practicing the satori . Prabhupāda: Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles) Karandhara: No point. It's ambiguous. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) *Pṛthu*-putra: For himself it's just to practice zazen , to meditate on Zen. Prabhupāda: That is also desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that; we would like to know God, or something like that. But by practicing zazen , we . . . finally the goal, we just come to the point, we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen . Prabhupāda: Then what is that position of no desire? Karandhara: The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again, without any self. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force. Bhagavān: Does that harmony means to merge? Prabhupāda: Now let me explain. Suppose a material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says, "So then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal . . ." Prabhupāda: But I mean to say, what result you will get more than the cats and dogs? Karandhara: Why practice? M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: What happens to the cat and the dog in the end? Karandhara: Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, and the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness. Prabhupāda: Then they have to accept good work and bad work. Karandhara: Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul, or the self, takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy . . . *Prabhupāda: That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Śūnyam means you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam ( CC Madhya 19.167). But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu . . . you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self . . . Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam , to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished? No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. M. Deshimaru: (French) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As soon as one realizes he is spirit soul, then there is no more suffering. Karandhara: Their point is they come . . . Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire. Karandhara: Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire. Prabhupāda: So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. It is something like this—just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievouslessness. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievouslessness, that he does not know. *M. Deshimaru: (French with Pṛthu*-putra) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire. Karandhara: No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say "spiritual," then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire. When we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material. Prabhupāda: Purified, purified. Yogeśvara: Purified desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: Prabhupāda says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite, but it's pure desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but . . . Prabhupāda: Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material. Prabhupāda: No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease, he is also lying down, he is also eating, he is also passing stool. And if he is informed that, "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again . . .?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured." Karandhara: Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy. Prabhupāda: That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are . . . together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal. Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge that although . . . just like here is my leg and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life. Prabhupāda: Then why . . . how he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand. Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain . . . Prabhupāda: Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As I prick the nail cutter here, oh that, "Oooooh!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand? *Pṛthu*-putra: The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material. Prabhupāda: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees as they try to explain) Karandhara: It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness, is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many, many things afterwards. Prabhupāda: Yes, soul has a form. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking is the form of the soul material? Prabhupāda: No, spiritual. M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form. Prabhupāda: Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards . . . they get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't . . . they don't have the next step, or the spiritual. Prabhupāda: No understanding of the spiritual. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter. Karandhara: What that means . . . that's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything, because everything is everything. Yogeśvara: There's no discrimination. Karandhara: Yes, there's no self. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one. Prabhupāda: Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says yes, for sure, we all die. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says but the goal . . . Prabhupāda: Has the dead man has any daily life? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin. Prabhupāda: That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles) Karandhara: No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know that we are going to be . . . that we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Pṛthu*-putra: What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life. Bhagavān: So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too. Bhagavān: Are you a demon? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: As we want. Prabhupāda: No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal killing. So he wanted to stop this animal killing. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message. Karandhara: Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind; that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else. Prabhupāda: At least he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha. Karandhara: They don't have the same historical . . . I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself for a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history, as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha . Prabhupāda: No, no, buddha , actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the . . .? Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started . . . *Prabhupāda: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, "knowledge." Budhā bhāva*-saman . . . (break) M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in a hermitage. Zen . . . Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa . Finish everything. Karandhara: Yes. Zen allows a man . . . according to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results. Prabhupāda: So that is our philosophy. We . . . Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. M. Deshimaru: (French) Bhagavān: What is the use of practice? If you practice or you don't practice, you still get the same result. Prabhupāda: No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice. Karandhara: What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes. Bhagavān: The problem is still death, though. The problem is still death. Prabhupāda: No, practice without any aim . . . Karandhara: Well they say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim? *Pṛthu*-putra: When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen , his concept of Buddha, is that disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice. Prabhupāda: No, if he says that, "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says zazen is in himself; the satori is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori , but the satori is going automatically with the practice. Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense, "Goal is without goal"? Then what is this? These are vague terms. Karandhara: It's like saying nothing is true. But then that's a truism. Prabhupāda: It is darkness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to become minus. Prabhupāda: But he is plus always. No, if you have no goal . . . there is example—"Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes . . . if the . . . (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster. Karandhara: Well, they have an aim, but the aim is . . . because they haven't . . . Prabhupāda: That you say they have got, he does not say. You say. Karandhara: No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception. Prabhupāda: So without aim, what is the use of practice? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Yogeśvara: He agrees, but he prefers his non*-goal . . . (indistinct) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Without goal practicing something, it is foolishness. M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know what is that goal. He does not know what is that goal. *Karandhara: Well, he says the goal is to become goal*-less. *Prabhupāda: We give the goal . . . we give the goal, yajñārthe. Yajñārthe karma . We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajña*-puruṣa . We know the goal. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says: "Who is Viṣṇu?" Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is God. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: And how we can satisfy God? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from me. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says yes. *Prabhupāda: "Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically, then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is . . . the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life. The aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf . . . the suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life, that's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation, he does not know where is the bead? On the . . . there is a bead. Just see. Karandhara: On the heater there's someone's beads. Prabhupāda: So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is? Bhagavān: It is mine. Prabhupāda: You are so forgetful? Bhagavān: No, I was looking for them. Prabhupāda: Why? Why did you . . .? Bhagavān: I left them on your bathroom door, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution if you do not know what is the real goal. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal. He says the real goal, the real things . . . Prabhupāda: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. You have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child: he does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind followers. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says: "Who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?" Yogeśvara: Who can judge? Prabhupāda: But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority? Yogeśvara: How can we tell a real authority? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority. Prabhupāda: This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know . . . therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead. So you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand. Karandhara: No, what he's saying is, what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper? Prabhupāda: So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim that, "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavān was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say: "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that, "I have no problem," "So let me act like him." When he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps. Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material . . . that is no spiritual life. (aside) Find out this verse, yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha . . . *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's Bhagavad*-gītā ? *Prabhupāda: . . . sama*-duḥkha-sama . . . hmm? Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Y-a-m, yam. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete . . . Prabhupāda: Ete , yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: 2.15. Prabhupāda: Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: *Translation: "O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation." (Pṛthu*-putra translates) Prabhupāda: Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up. That is the position of fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) *Pṛthu*-putra: He's all right with this point. He agree with this point. Prabhupāda: He will agree with all the points, provided he is fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: Not after death; in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time. Prabhupāda: Not each time. Just like our devotees: they come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice, he becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, he is not agitated. Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham . What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it the same verse? Prabhupāda: Same verse. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram. Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram , "unaltered in distress or happiness." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says so we then just have to practice now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be . . . M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says it's very simple. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that, "I am not this body." Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that, "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple living . . . you are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt you are a living force? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: No, he has no doubt. Prabhupāda: Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual, I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress. Bhagavān: Then we can ask, "What is that great?" Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing. You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means He has insufficient . . . er, more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He understand the point. Prabhupāda: Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand, just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and you are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says "nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child, he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot , or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot . And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. M. Deshimaru: (French) *Prabhupāda: So, so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ . (laughs) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). His knowledge is lost. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." *(Pṛthu*-putra translates) Prabhupāda: So narādhama means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation. Yogeśvara: Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing. Prabhupāda: But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: But you are a fool. "In your own way" means foolish way. You do not know. M. Deshimaru: (French, saying he understands the analogy but not what it's meant to prove) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way, in this universe there is a greater, spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness. M. Deshimaru: But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The point is that body and soul are two things. M. Deshimaru: I think it is same thing. Prabhupāda: You think, but how you can prove? M. Deshimaru: How you can prove that the body . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone . . . Yogeśvara: He's asking how can we prove our point? Prabhupāda: Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He wants to know how we can prove the body . . . M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says: "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead." Karandhara: No, but at the time of death the body is still there. The body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same; something's is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body? Prabhupāda: How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? M. Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells. Scientific explanation. Prabhupāda: So why don't you . . . if you know that, then replace that cell. Karandhara: The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is. M. Deshimaru: They cannot know also what life is. Karandhara: They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body. M. Deshimaru: But the death is . . . you can change also what you say. Prabhupāda: How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? M. Deshimaru: (French) Karandhara: I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: No, he says that the living force and the body is the same. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: Why the body is no more moving? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: Is just what he says. He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma . Prabhupāda: Is the karma . *Pṛthu*-putra: The karma . What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the still, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma . Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? M. Deshimaru: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: "Because the nerves are just cut." Prabhupāda: No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness? His question is very intelligent. M. Deshimaru: Because the hand is cut. Prabhupāda: But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness? Karandhara: It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same. Prabhupāda: You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Prabhupāda: Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. M. Deshimaru: (French) Devotee: And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death? Prabhupāda: No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, it can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead. Devotee: That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death? Prabhupāda: That he does not know, he cannot explain. Devotee: Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? M. Deshimaru: (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Take it. Make arrangement with him. M. Deshimaru: (French with devotees) Devotees: (indistinct background comments) (break) (end) Conversation -- June 14, 1974, Paris (Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe, Director of the Sorbonne University) Bhagavān: This book is being published in twelve volumes. Professor Lacombe: Yes. It's . . . (indistinct) Bhagavān: Yale University. I think you are familiar with Yale University in the United States. They have already placed advanced order for all these volumes. Professor Lacombe: (French with Jyotirmayī) *Prabhupāda: We are translating the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literature. You have seen the sample, original verse, word-to-word meaning, then translation, then giving a purport. Professor Lacombe: You wrote the commentary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: What is the paramparā from Caitanya? Prabhupāda: From Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. The six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. The six Gosvāmīs. Then from the Gosvāmīs there is Śrīnivāsācārya. Professor Lacombe: Śrīnivāsa. Prabhupāda: Śrīnivāsācārya. Then from him, I think, this Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Then Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, then Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, then my Guru Mahārāja. Next we are. I am the tenth or eleventh, eleventh from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor Lacombe: And you have come to a round visit to the West now? Prabhupāda: I have come several times. Professor Lacombe: Yes, but this time. Prabhupāda: This time, yes, just to see my centers. I have got many . . . Professor Lacombe: This is your Paris establishment? Prabhupāda: Yes, Paris establishment, yes. Professor Lacombe: Formerly you were in the south of . . . in the banlieu (suburbs). Jyotirmayī: Yes, before. *French devotee: At Fontenay*-aux-Roses. Jyotirmayī: One year ago we came here in Paris. Professor Lacombe: It's of course more noisy and . . . but it's more easy and more convenient. When was this Paris center started? Jyotirmayī: It started four years ago. Professor Lacombe: Four years ago. And this is your first visit to this center? Prabhupāda: No, this is the fourth visit. Professor Lacombe: Fourth visit, every year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Last year also I came. I installed the Deity. Professor Lacombe: You now come right from Vṛndāvana or . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am coming from Vṛndāvana, of course, via Delhi. Then Rome, then Geneva, then Paris. Then I shall go to Frankfurt. And from there I shall go to Sydney, Australia. Professor Lacombe: Oh, this is not the direct way. (laughs) *Bhagavān: We have a Ratha*-yātrā festival. You have heard of this festival, from Jagannātha Purī? Professor Lacombe: Yes, of course. I have been there. Bhagavān: We have this festival in very big, in the same scale, in Australia, London, San Francisco, Chicago. Prabhupāda: Where is that poster? Australia? Yes. Bhagavān: And in all these cities we are joined . . . in San Francisco there are ten thousand people who come at least every year to help pull the carts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: In Chicago also, Philadelphia, there will be Ratha*-yātrā. This is the . . . *Satsvarūpa: (showing poster) This is for Melbourne, Australia, Ratha*-yātrā parade, picture of the parade last year. Professor Lacombe: Last year. Prabhupāda: No, this year they are advertising. Professor Lacombe: Which is to come. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Satsvarūpa: This is a poster that Haṁsadūta sent for Frankfurt for next week. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is German language. Professor Lacombe: And all is in the vicinity of Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted. You understand little Bengali? Do you understand . . . Professor Lacombe: Bengali not. Sanskrit, but not . . . Prabhupāda: The Bengali words: Pṛthivīte —this is Sanskrit—"all over the world;" āche , "there are"; yata , "as many"; nagarādi grāma, nagara , "towns . . ." Professor Lacombe: Cities and villages. Prabhupāda: Cities, yes, villages; sarvatra . . . Professor Lacombe: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: . . . "everywhere"; pracāra , "propaganda" or "publicity," pracāra ; haibe , "there will be"; mora nāma , Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name. So now it is being so. All over the world we have got branches, and they know Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. So that is being now propagated. Professor Lacombe: I understand. Prabhupāda: So He predicted, and by His great will it is being propagated. Professor Lacombe: How many . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty*-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand. Yes. Ten thousand. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So . . . and they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are—Indian scholar, I mean—they were surprised when some of my the students, young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa. Professor Lacombe: You have all been to India? Bhagavān: Not all. Some of us. Professor Lacombe: Not all. Some of you. Bhagavān: We have a very big center in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor Lacombe: I have been in Navadvīpa. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: Long ago, in 1936. Prabhupāda: 1936. Did you see my Guru Mahārāja? Professor Lacombe: No. Prabhupāda: No. He passed away in 1936 in December. In December. Professor Lacombe: No, I have not seen him. Probably he was already ill or . . . he was ill. Prabhupāda: Bhaktisiddhānta Saras . . . that is the photograph of my guru . His Guru Mahārāja and his Guru Mahārāja . . . Professor Lacombe: And so on. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is paramparā . *Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this. Professor Lacombe: And how do you . . .? It was one of your pupils who spoke about Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāmānuja. He belongs to the Śrī*-sampradāya. Professor Lacombe: Yes. But there is a connection. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they are connected. Yes. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. So we belong to Madhvācārya. Professor Lacombe: To? *Prabhupāda: Madhvācārya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu belonged to Madhvācārya. Madhvācārya was direct disciple of Vyāsadeva, and by paramparā , Mādhavendra Purī. Then from Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Īśvara Purī as His spiritual master. So we belong to this Madhvācārya*-sampradāya. Madhvācārya-sampradāya or Brahma-sampradāya. The sampradāya , the disciplic succession, is coming from Lord Brahmā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada. Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva. And Vyāsadeva's disciple is Madhvācārya. And from Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we are, Caitan . . . like that. *Professor Lacombe: One of you mentioned, because I had made a translation of the first . . . the beginning of the Śrī*-bhāṣya , Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Śrī*-bhāṣya , Bhagavad-gītā ? *Professor Lacombe: No. The Śrī*-bhāṣya , the Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya. Unfortunately, it is out of print. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: So one of you, I think . . . Devotee: I mentioned about Rāmānujācārya. Professor Lacombe: Yes. You can read it in the library, but unfortunately, it is out of print. Yes. It is a complete translation of the first part, you see, 850 pages, with the text and notes. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. Just like we do text and transliteration? Professor Lacombe: The text is in nāgarī . Bhagavān: There are synonyms in your translation? Do you give the synonym for the word? Prabhupāda: Equivalent. Satsvarūpa: This style here. Prabhupāda gives the Bengali . . . Professor Lacombe: Transliteration? Satsvarūpa: Translation, for pronunciation. Professor Lacombe: No, no, there is no transliteration. Satsvarūpa: Translation, purport or notes. Professor Lacombe: No, there is only translation and notes. But some of the synonyms are in the notes. And the purport also comes in in the notes when necessary. Bhagavān: You are teaching a course now? Professor Lacombe: I finished. The year is finished. Bhagavān: Yes. You were teaching a course? Professor Lacombe: Not on this . . . Bhagavān: What was the name of that course? Jyotirmayī: He was teaching the Tenth Canto. Professor Lacombe: Comparative philosophy, the Indian branch. *Jyotirmayī: But this year you were teaching the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . Professor Lacombe: Yes. That was one of them, actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come . . . *Prabhupāda: So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita*-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita . Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral, or you like some philosophy? Professor Lacombe: I try to be objective, but not neutral. (laughs) I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: That, Rāmānuja . . . Professor Lacombe: Personal . . . Bhagavān: Personal attraction. Professor Lacombe: Yes. Although, of course, I try . . . I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: The notions of Brahman and ātman both in Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja. That one is not out of print. It is called in French L'Absolute selons les Vedānta . *Prabhupāda: But Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ devakī*-putraḥ . He has written like that in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā . *Professor Lacombe: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . and all the ācāryas , Vaiṣṇava ācāryas , they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So practically, amongst the authorities, Indian ācāryas , everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rāmānujācārya has written his bhāṣya on Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Lacombe: I read it. Yes. And Śaṅkara's also. Both. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has not written. Śaṅkara has written. Śarīraka*-bhāṣya , Vedānta-sūtra . He has written comment on Bhagavad-gītā . Professor Lacombe: Yes, and Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya also. Also Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī, he has written. He belongs to Viṣṇu Svāmī–sampradāya. And our Gauḍīya*-Vaiṣṇava, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, he has written comments. And Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Professor Lacombe: Oh, yes, there is long list of commentaries on the *Gītā* . Prabhupāda: Yes. There are ten ṭīkās . Professor Lacombe: This is published . . .? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: Where is it printed? Bhagavān: It is printed in Japan. And we have our publishing house in New York. *Professor Lacombe: In New York. Yes. This is the second volume of the first . . . Ādi*-līlā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is second. Ādi*-līlā , yes. Bhagavān: You are familiar with Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy? Professor Lacombe: Yes. You see, I started Sanskrit and Indian studies in 1929, when we were abroad. Prabhupāda: You have been in India several times. Professor Lacombe: Many times, yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay generally? Professor Lacombe: In several places, but mainly in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Calcutta. Professor Lacombe: Mainly in Calcutta. But in many other places too. Prabhupāda: Calcutta where? Professor Lacombe: Park Mansions, Park Street, near Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Park Street. Asiatic Society. Professor Lacombe: Not far from. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. It is just on the junction of Park Street and Chowringee. Calcutta is my birthplace. Professor Lacombe: You were born in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. All our former relatives, they are in Calcutta. Professor Lacombe: Even now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: I think the situation is better now in Calcutta. Improving. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. Professor Lacombe: Because my last visit there was in 1970, and it was the worst moment. But I hear that it is improving. Prabhupāda: Improving, yes. Just near that Asiatic Society we held our Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival in front of, I think, the museum. Professor Lacombe: Yes, on Chowringee. Prabhupāda: Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling. Professor Lacombe: This year? Prabhupāda: (break) . . . God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less Communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow, and that is the position now. Professor Lacombe: But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is . . . at least in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year, I suppose. Prabhupāda: No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69, there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. (to devotee) You were at that time there? No. Devotee: No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites . . . Prabhupāda: Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation. Devotee: Especially any rich man or politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: The Vice Chancellor of Jadavpur University was killed the day before I arrived in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Old gentleman? Professor Lacombe: Yes. And he was retiring. He was still in activity, but he was soon retiring, and he was walking from the University campus to his home, not far, a short walk. And he was killed by one of these . . . Prabhupāda: Naxalites. Professor Lacombe: Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities. Devotee: Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions. Professor Lacombe: Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killing. Devotee: And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger Communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic, and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be. Professor Lacombe: Now it is better. Prabhupāda: Actually, there was no government. Professor Lacombe: At that time, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable . . . respectable or nonrespect . . . no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that, "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India. Professor Lacombe: Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay? Professor Lacombe: I did not stay. I just visit, went around. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor Lacombe: And it was long ago. *Prabhupāda: There is a place, Ramaṇa*-reti. Did you see that Oriental Philosophical Institution? Professor Lacombe: It was not yet started at that time. Prabhupāda: No, it was there, 1970. No, when you went to Vṛndāvana? *Professor Lacombe: Thirty*-six or '7. *Prabhupāda: Thirty*-six? Oh, yes. It was not started. Yes. Ramaṇa-reti, there is a road from Vṛndāvana to . . . connecting with the road from Delhi to Agra. That road is called Chattikara, Chattikara Road. So on that road we have got our temple. It is locally known as Ramaṇa-reti. Professor Lacombe: After Mathurā. Prabhupāda: After Mathurā. It is Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana. There is a shortcut. Formerly . . . the road is very old road, from Delhi to Vṛndāvana, taking a turn at the place known as Chattikara. So on that road we are constructing our temple. Professor Lacombe: Constructing now? Prabhupāda: No, it is finished. Professor Lacombe: It is ancient? But you are . . . Bhagavān: (to devotee) Do you have the photographs? Yogeśvara: Don't think so. Some slides somewhere. Professor Lacombe: But that is an old shrine. It is not a new establishment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, formerly I was staying. I have got my place there also, one of the oldest temple, Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Rādhā-Dāmodara. It was . . . this temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. There are seven important temples: Govindajī's temple, Madana-Mohana, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Rādhā-Ramaṇa and . . . Devotee: Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Giridhārī. Prabhupāda: Not Giridhārī. That is later. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Gopīnātha. *Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha, yes. So Gopīnātha temple, Madana-Mohana temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Śyāmasundara and Gokulānanda, Gokulānanda. These are old seven temples. Later on, other big, big temples, Raṅganātha temple and Gaekwar temple, like that, Jaipur temple, they came into existence. But there are five thousand temples in Vṛndāvana's city, municipal area. Practically each house is a temple. In every house there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and being worshiped by some devotees. The Ārya-samājī movement . . . you know something about Ārya-samāja? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody . . . Professor Lacombe: Even now, nowadays, now they are . . . *Prabhupāda: No, their influence is gone, Ārya*-samāja. *Professor Lacombe: No, I mean the Ārya*-samāja is no more very active now. Prabhupāda: They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. Professor Lacombe: How long will you stay in Paris? Prabhupāda: I am going on Sunday morning. Professor Lacombe: To Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Lacombe: And then you stay a little longer. Prabhupāda: I will stay there one week, and then, on the 23rd . . . Yogeśvara: 26th. Prabhupāda: No, 23rd. Satsvarūpa: June 23rd we fly to Sydney. We stop in Bombay one day. Professor Lacombe: It will be very hot now in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Now it is . . . might be raining. Professor Lacombe: Yes, it might be raining. Prabhupāda: Because from 10th June monsoon begins. Bombay is not too hot as Vṛndāvana, as Vṛndāvana. Professor Lacombe: On account of the seashore. Prabhupāda: Ah. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Bhagavān: If you go back to India, you can . . . you are welcome to stay in our temples. Professor Lacombe: In Vṛndāvana. Bhagavān: In Vṛndāvana. We have Māyāpur, near Navadvīpa. And we also purchased some very nice land outside of Bombay, Juhu. Professor Lacombe: Yes, I know. Devotee: Hyderabad and Calcutta. In Delhi also, we have a nice center there. Professor Lacombe: What part is it in? Devotee: It's in West End. It is very close to the airport. Professor Lacombe: And in Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Near Park Street, Camac Street. Professor Lacombe: Camac Street I know. Devotee: By Hindi High School. Very nice, old . . . it was called the Rai Castle. It used to be occupied by some governors. (devotee gives the professor some prasādam ) Professor Lacombe: Thank you very much. Just a little. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, during that time of the Naxalites you had mentioned that after that program, you said due to the effects of our program, it stopped all that Naxalite movement. Because very shortly after we had that pandal in the Maidan, the whole Naxalite movement was finished. You said due to that, because we purified the atmosphere . . . Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Devotee: . . . with chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The government could do nothing. The police were helpless. Professor Lacombe: And the festival in Sydney will take a long time? Yogeśvara: Sydney festival is for how many days? Devotee: I think it's just for one day. Prabhupāda: On the 29th. *Yogeśvara: One day, 29th of June. Ratha*-yātrā festival, like in Jagannātha Purī. Professor Lacombe: Today it is better here, little warmer. These days were unusually cool for this time of year. Yogeśvara: How are you feeling? When we went to visit you in your office, it wasn't sure whether you could come, because you were not feeling very well. Professor Lacombe: I am not very well, no. Prabhupāda: What is your age? Professor Lacombe: I got cold. Prabhupāda: No, age. Professor Lacombe: Oh, I shall be seventy after three weeks. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I am also seventy*-eight. But your health is better than me. You have got your natural teeth? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, then very good. (laughter) Professor Lacombe: This is a nice . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is nice. Professor Lacombe: Nice view. Not too noisy. I wonder how? Because you are on the small street. Bhagavān: Tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving conference at Salle Pleyel. Professor Lacombe: Yes, I know. Tonight. I have seen. This? Prabhupāda: This is a picture. I do not know wherefrom they have collected. (laughter) Bhagavān: It is from Yogeśvara. Prabhupāda: It is supposed that the gopīs are looking to the picture of Kṛṣṇa, is it not? Professor Lacombe: Yes. Very likely. Prabhupāda: But this picture also appears to be searching out Aniruddha. Yogeśvara: Uṣā. Prabhupāda: Uṣā, yes. Devotee: Citralekhā Yogeśvara: Yes, that's right. She showed her a picture. Because she had never seen Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: She saw only in dream. So her friend Citralekhā showed. She showed that, "Find out whom you dreamed." Then she pointed out. Professor Lacombe: I remember that. In the . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, in the Bhāgavata . Professor Lacombe: I could not recognize from this . . . *Prabhupāda: So immediately she brought from Dvārakā*-dhāma palace direct to the palace of Uṣā. Vyom . . . what is called, the asura ? What is his name? Yogeśvara: Bhaumāsura. Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura. Bāṇāsura, Bāṇāsura. The picture, where is that picture, find out. Bāṇāsura. Bāṇāsura was appreciating, "Oh, very nice couple." But he had to challenge, "Why you have entered my palace and talking with my unmarried girl?" Bhagavān: Yes. This is the *Kṛṣṇa Book* that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written. It is a summary of the Tenth Canto. And all these paintings, these are done by our artists in New York. (pause) Professor Lacombe: I'm afraid I should go now. Jyotirmayī: Yes. Monsieur Lacombe has a course. Professor Lacombe: Not a course but a meeting. And as the traffic is rather thick now, it is better to not to take a chance. I should not be late. Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you very much. Professor Lacombe: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Jaya . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Yogeśvara: . . . on a book. It is accepted as being authentic. All the universities use his texts. And he has a big office in the Sorbonne. The Sorbonne is the most famous French university. Prabhupāda: He is a big man. Bhagavān: Actually, it's not famous—it's infamous. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: No? Actually, they're not famous; they're infamous Prabhupāda: No, why infamous? They are famous. Why do you say infamous? Bhagavān: Well, I thought fame only referred to devotee. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: I thought fame was to be referred to . . . for devotee. Prabhupāda: That is your sentiment. But practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous. Devotee: I just saw that . . . maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent." Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā ? Devotee: They said he was found innocent. Prabhupāda: Who is? Devotee: President Nixon Prabhupāda: In the court? Devotee: Yes. Because . . . you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught . . . Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows about the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By a court? Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign, making secret tape recordings against the other party. Prabhupāda: He did? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And still he is innocent? Devotee: Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the Republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the Democrats, and had spies and everything, in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men, and they were all fired. Prabhupāda: So that is not bad, because in politics you have to do that. (laughter) Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault? Devotee: But only he got caught. And all of his men quit. Prabhupāda: No, no. Suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies, so I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not . . . everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am. Devotee: They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on. Devotee: According to the American government it is illegal to . . . each person has his own plans, and it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent. Prabhupāda: Court says. Devotee: The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said: "I didn't know anything about it." He says: "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them." Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy? Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. Yogeśvara: Just like during any war they always . . . *Prabhupāda: Politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin*-brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that . . . Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there were some misunderstanding in chess playing, that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas , these things are not uncommon. Devotee: But isn't that not good, because the, like, politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public that, "When I am elected, I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many . . . they pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are . . . I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the . . . Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding. Devotee: Hmm. Because we will also have to do that. Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana . You understand Bengali? No. That "When you are going to dance . . . a girl, or a lady, is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana , became little ashamed. So "You are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground. Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying: "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals . . . just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying: "How can these peoples be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life?" Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that, "They cannot be leader," then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that, "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it. Devotee: Therefore we must cheat. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that, "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously, because I know, "I am also thief." (chuckles) So, but this appeal, that does not appeal because, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that, "He is thief. He cannot be trusted," then he knows that, "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Chore chore mastuto bhāi. This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that, "We all are thieves, all cousin*-brothers; so why this man should be only accused?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves. Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand, because he is also vicious. Devotee: Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa, during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said: "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā the elephant, he said the elephant . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, that was a tactics. So . . . Devotee: And also when Karṇa . . . Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character, that people can see that "Here is a ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics . . . they are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, the people. So when you point out that, "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said: "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family member, they scrutinizingly studying that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?" Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are. Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty. Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming . . . the same thing, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say: "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest, they have too." Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want. Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places; he could not find out. First of all he gave him four places that, "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles that, "What is wrong there?" Devotee: It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find a spiritual atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that, "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma. Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life: illicit sex, intoxication . . . he was first*-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left. Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said: "Swāmījī will not be successful, because he does not allow free love in his movement." Prabhupāda: That's it. Devotee: He says: "That is why I had to leave, because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University. Prabhupāda: That Neil. Devotee: Yeah, Neil. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: And he told me that, "Swāmījī will not be successful in his movement, because he will not allow free love." I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple. Prabhupāda: No, he cannot give up these bad habits. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said that at the meeting, the conference in Geneva, that no one has died from giving up smoking or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man*-to-man marriage. Most unnatural. *Devotee: Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church, so then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man*-to-man marriage. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers. Bhagavān: It's a matter of money. Prabhupāda: And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the Church? (laughs) Bhārgava: There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God. Prabhupāda: Because the Church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian Church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there? Bhārgava: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not . . . they were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out. Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere. Bhārgava: And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it. Prabhupāda: He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him. Nitāi: That once I met a little old lady on the streets of Denver when I was distributing books. Prabhupāda: Old lady. Nitāi: Very old. She was walking down the street. She was all bent over. And she asked me what I was doing, and I showed her our magazine and explained that we were teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and she said: "Oh, is this yoga ? I remember way back when Vivekananda came here. Have you ever heard of him?" So we began talking about Vivekananda. She said that she was there when he made his tour. She was in Denver when he made his tour of the United States, and that he stopped there for one meeting and lectured. And she went there to see that meeting, but she said that all in all she was disgusted with him because he was so much attracted to the women. She said that he was victimized by the women. They were all trying to get him, and she said so when he went back to India he was a broken man. Prabhupāda: Yes, she (he) took with him three women. One of them was Sister Nivedita. Devotee: Also you told us in India about Aurobindo and Ramakrishna. Aurobindo went also. Aurobindo, when that French woman came, he also fell to her, but just to cover it up he has called her "Mother," because in India, when you call someone "Mother . . ." Prabhupāda: No, everyone knows he (she) is mother and he is father. Devotee: Yeah, right. And they don't think . . . there is no question of sex. When they think of mother and father, they don't think of these things. Also with Ramakrishna. He also had his divine mother. You told us a story in Calcutta that he was very debauched. In a village he used to chase the young women. And his brother actually made him famous. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to . . . not to be victimized by woman. It is very difficult. Yogeśvara: Unless you are victimized by Kṛṣṇa first. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is, I mean, what is called, captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, then he is not victimized. *Madana*-mohana. Madana-dāhana and Madana-mohana . Unless one is captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, he will be troubled by the arrows of the Cupid. Madana-dāhana. The Cupid is known, he has got arrow. If he pierces, then he becomes victim. Yogeśvara: You didn't find it necessary to enter into any kind of discussion with this French professor just now. There was no real discussion of philosophy. I was wondering why that didn't happen. Prabhupāda: He did not raise any question. And he is simply translator. He has no philosophy. I asked him, "Which philosophy you are . . .?" So "I make comparative study." I think he did not like to enter into philosophical . . . is it not? Devotee: Hmm. Most of these gentlemen who come here, when they see you and begin talking with you, like you said, they show their ignorance when they begin to speak. So they prefer not to speak. They always make some excuse that they have an appointment, because they know that if they speak, they will be in real trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate : "A foolish man is very nice as long as he does not speak. As soon as he will speak, his foolishness will be captured." So therefore, sometimes they do not like to talk. Remain as a nice man, (laughs) without being discovered. Devotee: I think maybe the first gentleman who was here, who said . . . he was talking about experiencing God. He says: "Actually I experienced God, but actually God is beyond my experience." You gave him such a hard time that I think he must have made phone calls to all these other men, "Be careful of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is very dangerous." (laughter) Prabhupāda: I told him that, "You have no experience." Devotee: He turned so red when you said: "But how were you saying you are having experience, and you just said God is beyond your experience?" And then he says: "I never said that. You put those words into my mouth." I whispered in his ear, "We have it on tape. We will play it back for you." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Oh*-ho. We have got Kṛṣṇa. We are not afraid in challenging anyone. I believe on that formula. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). I believe that verse very strongly, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be within this list: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ . That's all. I have explained that verse little elaborately. Read it. It is very interesting. Where is Satsvarūpa? Bhagavān: He is in the other room. Would you like him to come in? Nitāi: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me." *"It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā that simply by surrendering oneself unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, one can surmount the stringent laws of material nature. At this point a question arises. How is it that educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the leaders of ordinary men do not surrender unto the lotus . . . (break) . . . Manu, Vyāsa, Devala, Asita, Janaka, Prahlāda, Bali, and later on, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Śrī Caitanya and many others who are faithful philosophers, politicians, educators and scientists, etc., surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers, scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord. They have no idea of God. They simply manufacture their own worldly plans and consequently complicate the problems of material . . ." Prabhupāda: Everyone comes, they say: "Why people are suffering?" They are concerned with the people suffering. Actually not. That is a plea only, as if he has taken the task of minimizing the suffering of humanity. He poses himself as very philanthropist. Actually, he cannot do anything. *Nitāi: "Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic plan*-makers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina , or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic plan-maker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic plan-maker is called duṣkṛtina , which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction . . ." Prabhupāda: Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything—they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their . . . they have come. People come to see Paris just for that . . . what is that theater? Bhagavān: Folies Bergere. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act . . . nobody goes to . . . beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina . Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on, just like we are trying to do: take prasādam , worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches. But there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina . They have got merit to construct very nice, wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then? Nitāi: (reading) "In the *Gītā* it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object. But still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas , or miscreants, are of four different patterns as outlined below. *1. The mūḍhas : those who are grossly foolish like hard*-working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma , action, is meant for yajña , sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas , material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving Mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources." Prabhupāda: Generally, we see now, especially in the Western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany? Devotee: Amsterdam is the same way. Prabhupāda: Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes. Devotee: It is the center. *Prabhupāda: This is very prominent in the Western country, which we are asking that no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable. Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. (aside) All right, keep it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even they can . . . Prabhupāda: That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised. Yogeśvara: We don't have a very good reputation in India? Prabhupāda: Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava. Devotee: No, he means the Western people themselves. Prabhupāda: "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that. Devotee: They think that . . . they won't allow even a Westerner to marry their daughter, because the Westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry with the brahmacārīs , the American brahmacārīs , but the parents would not allow because they said: "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the Westerners, that they . . . the life is so fast. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another brahmacārī saved. (laughs) Prabhupāda: One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy? Devotee: There's that boy in Bombay, he married one Indian girl. Prabhupāda: He is staying. *Devotee: Jagat*-puruṣa. Prabhupāda: He has not left as yet. But he can leave any moment. (laughs) No. He is not American; he is devotee. Therefore he is reliable. Hmm. (pause) Hmm. Bhagavān: We have to arrange a few things. Prabhupāda: What is the next program? Is there any program? Yogeśvara: A big hall meeting. Prabhupāda: Today? Bhagavān: Tonight. Prabhupāda: What time? Bhagavān: Eight o'clock. You will be speaking around 8:30. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1974, Paris *(Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto, Kali*-yuga) *Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described, in Kali*-yuga. Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto? Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. (pause) (break) . . . it is stated: "Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan . . . "The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see. Yogeśvara: That's Paris. *Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta recently it was dangerous to go out because the next . . . you do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a . . . I was guest in our Life Member's. Sitting in morning, at ten o'clock. "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the back side. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) . . . about so*-called saintly persons, they are tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ : "The so-called yogīs , they'll live in the town." (chuckles) Actually, the yogīs have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in . . . just like the other . . . he's living in Paris City, and he's a yogī . Yogeśvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma*-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ : "And the sannyāsīs , they'll be too much greedy about money." Yogeśvara: Just see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Patiṁ tyakṣyanti nirdravyaṁ bhṛtyā apy akhilottamam. "The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money." The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power, the wife . . . the divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Hmm. Here it is: *"In the Kali*-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vāsa ," you see? I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion's . . . what is that? Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions . . . Yogeśvara: Lion's Club? Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street. Yogeśvara: They call them "flop houses." *Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna . Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking—milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana , sleeping, or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana , and vyavāya , sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna . I have seen in New York, they have no . . . in a Hamburg, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna . So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ , "and dress," hīnāḥ , "being devoid of all these things," piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti , "they will be just like," what is called, "urchins." Yogeśvara: Piśācī . Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort, and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca . What is the English? Nitāi: Ghost? *Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghostlike. Hīnāḥ piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ : "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ , people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then? *In the Kali*-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only, he'll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he'll kill him to take that two cent or five cent. Na rakṣiṣyanti manujāḥ sthavirau pitarāv api . Satsvarūpa: The guests are here. Nitāi: There are many guests here to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents." Yogeśvara: To old parents? Prabhupāda: Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmayī: So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is . . . he's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransard. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew, and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually. Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in India? Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry. Prabhupāda: Pondicherry? Madame Siaude: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Aurobindo's place. Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time. Jyotirmayī: And she was studying with Monsieur Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Jyotirmayī: Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also Monsieur Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together. Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is . . . Jyotirmayī: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransard asked me was, "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person." Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand. Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God. Jyotirmayī: What? Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is imperson. Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person, how the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said: "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then he's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then . . . the Christians pray in the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (Jyotirmayī translates Prabhupāda's words throughout) Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is . . . we have a personal relationship with God. Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angle of vision: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; *and Paramātmā, all*-pervading, localized; and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal; the sun globe, localized; *and the sun*-god, person. (break) Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta*-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there . . . in the Bible also there is, "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma : "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā : the resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. (aside) Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Nitāi: Brahmaṇaḥ aham . . . "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal." Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "The constitution of Brahman . . ." Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. You have to explain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll get another. Bhagavān: In the meantime, we can translate from here. Pastor (1): (French) Jyotirmayī: He's asking when . . . how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jyotirmayī: He's asking how old are the . . . Yogeśvara: How old are the *Vedas* ? Prabhupāda: *Vedas* ? Yogeśvara: These Vedic scriptures we are reading, how old are they, he's asking. *Prabhupāda: They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye. (aside) Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Find out this verse. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Now who will translate? You, one by one line, the translation you speak. *Nitāi: Okay. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, all*-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā . . ." Prabhupāda: And this is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: ". . . who is the first created living being." Prabhupāda: You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca (BG 10.2). Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud banging in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right. *Nitāi: Oh, it's in the Bhagavad*-gītā ? Aham . . .? Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām. And the Bible it is said: "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ : "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin, for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Yogeśvara: You said also in the Bible it is said: "There is the word." Prabhupāda: That word, sound, is the *Vedas* . So before creation, *Vedas* were there. So you cannot find out the history of *Vedas* . You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, *Vedas* were there. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the *Vedas* . He says there are still distinctions. Prabhupāda: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect—the later edition or the original. Pastor (2): (French along with other guests) Yogeśvara: You can translate? Jyotirmayī: They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning, everything together. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the *Vedas* , the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the *Vedas* , but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in that chapter it also says that the word of God became flesh, and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: They say . . . they accept . . . they think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also that he was part of this material world. Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. Pastor (2): (French, along with others) Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body. Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. Madame Siaude: (French) Prabhupāda: A material body, how there can be resurrection? Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French with lady guest) Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Jyotirmayī: They said it is by the acintya power of God. Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, they thought that Jesus had a material body, "Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body. Jyotirmayī: Bewildered them? Yogeśvara: Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that." Prabhupāda: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. Yogeśvara: That was their punishment. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we . . . Prabhupāda: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain . . . Yogeśvara: What is the reason for his incarnation? Prabhupāda: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has . . . that means he has got spiritual body. You . . . Madame Siaude: Yes, we accept that he got the spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body. Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "O Father." Then why "only son"? Madame Siaude: We say that the son is . . . Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son. Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes. Prabhupāda: If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? Madame Siaude: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. By adoption. (laughter) (French) Jyotirmayī: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption. Yogeśvara: Adopted son. Yes. Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus' body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Their idea is that yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men. Prabhupāda: Why he should accept? Madame Siaude: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that he was a real man . . . Prabhupāda: But his death . . . you think that he was died, but he resurrected. Madame Siaude: But the gospel says that he had died. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Madame Siaude: You cannot . . . we accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam (BG 4.9). Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. Madame Siaude: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Exactly. Yogeśvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. Pastor (2): (French along with others) Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You understand Sanskrit? Madame Siaude: No, I don't understand it by hearing it. We have to read it. Prabhupāda: Na hanyate, does not die; hanyamāne śarīre , apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: So . . . shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead. Madame Siaude: No. Death and resurrection altogether. Yogeśvara: There's a resurrection. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame . . . Madame Devi? Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is a big part of the Oriental religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir. Yogeśvara: Kashmir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Where was this? In a newspaper? Prabhupāda: Yes. In paper I saw. Madame Siaude: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history, because everybody has his own documentation. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased, because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that . . . here . . . at least, in London I have seen, there are so many churches vacant. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference last night, and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God? Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle . . . (to Jyotirmayī) Explain. (French explanation) Similarly, this huge, gigantic cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our . . . Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1): "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who is the origin of all creation," this is the active principle. There is. So . . . and how He is working? (to Jyotirmayī) You have to explain. (French explanation) In the beginning of *Bhāgavatam* , I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ , cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then . . . of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ . He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (interrupting translation) That would be impersonal. Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God, and it is being distributed through Brahmā. And He's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. Madame Siaude: (French) Yogeśvara: She says that God is known as antaryāmī , the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the practice of yoga . Madame Siaude: (French) I guess if you have the idea of prapati , of surrender . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Madame Siaude: . . . this is a way to God directly. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . that is the real process. Madame Siaude: But it is not yoga . It is different from yoga ? *Prabhupāda: No, it is bhakti*-yoga . Madame Siaude: Prapati is different. *Prabhupāda: Prapati is bhakti*-yoga . Madame Siaude: You take it in bhakti ? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti , yes. Prapati means bhakti . Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā , the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19): "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything. When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā , great soul, is very rare to be seen." Madame Siaude: (French) Jyotirmayī: So she said that in . . . it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot . . . they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, ārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim (Nārada Pañcarātra): "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And nārādhita yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim : "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar*-bahiḥ yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And nārādhita . . . nantar-bahiḥ tad yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim , "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. French guests: (French) Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) He said, well, first you said that . . . first we must learn about God, and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first. Prabhupāda: But unless one . . . we say: "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion . . . religion means . . . Pastor (2): (French) Prabhupāda: What does he say? Yogeśvara: He says: "But God reveals Himself to us." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is . . . that is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (Brs. 1.2.234): "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present ten senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau . When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue: one is talking and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasāda , then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been . . . they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda ." *And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American government spent millions of dollar to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, they immediately give up. French guests: (French) Jyotirmayī: They say they are very glad for all of this. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement, chanting the holy name of God. You don't . . . I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of . . . if you have got any other name, you can chant. Pastors: (French) Yogeśvara: So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: He was very sad yesterday when there was some people, you know, making noises. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. They are . . . gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins. Jyotirmayī: Becoming? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Urchins. Very degraded. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: That I was discussing from *Bhāgavatam* , how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people, who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing . . . Prabhupāda: Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. Yogeśvara: That's the point. Pastor (2): (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted. Prabhupāda: So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers. Yogeśvara: From? Prabhupāda: From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said: "Thou shall not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. Pastor (2): (French) Bhagavān: What did he say? Yogeśvara: He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. There was . . . Yogeśvara: Yes, they stayed until midnight. Bhagavān: There was . . . the total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock. Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? Twelve o'clock. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. Pastor (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss. *Prabhupāda: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just consider and then give your judgment after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra : "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra : "If you consider it with logic and judgment, then you'll find it is sublime." *Bhagavān: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad*-gītā , cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said: "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was a word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. (break) Yogeśvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say that you can't chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material. Prabhupāda: That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun or moon . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . because the body of God is giving off light. Prabhupāda: No, the residents also, they are bright. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, illuminating. Prabhupāda: Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. Pastor (2): (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they have to take . . . Prabhupāda: Ācchā ? One hour we have passed? (laughter) Thank you very much. Pastor (1): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. (to incoming guest) Come on. Yogeśvara: Bring the chair so that she can sit. (first batch of guests leave) American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Prabhupāda: Huh? American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ . Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that? Yogeśvara: He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ ?" Prabhupāda: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. Yogeśvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some . . . Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you prepare yourself . . . because . . . just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. (Pṛthu*-putra translates throughout) (to man) Do you understand English? American man: I'm American. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts. Yogeśvara: Thoughts. She asks, she says: "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action, because the thoughts are some . . . of some . . ." Bhagavān: "The thoughts begin the action." Yogeśvara: "The thoughts begins the action, determine the actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: "Do you think that in the future is going to be all religious movements together?" Yogeśvara: "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group?" Prabhupāda: There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God, and we should be obedient to God. This is religion. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?" Prabhupāda: No, there is no special path. There is only one path that, "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you . . . they accept this? American man: I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"? American man: My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God. Prabhupāda: Yes. American man: If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it . . . Prabhupāda: No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all. American man: God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God. Prabhupāda: Simply you understand. American man: I understand the light. Prabhupāda: No, no, you understand. You say: "God is word." That means you understand God. American man: No. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say: "God is word"? American man: I say God cannot be explained with words. Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that? American man: Because I . . . Prabhupāda: If you do not know the subject matter . . . you say that, "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God? American man: I do not speak of God. Prabhupāda: No, you are speaking that, "God is word." You say: "God is word"? American man: No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain. Prabhupāda: But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things? American man: No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word . . . Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept. American man: It is light. I speak of the light. Prabhupāda: Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know . . . sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know. American man: No, no, no. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light. American man: If you wish to call it "God . . ." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once, and once only . . . Prabhupāda: Now, now, you say that God is light. American man: . . . so we'll understand. Prabhupāda: Do you say, "God is light"? American man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you know God. Then why do you say: "God cannot be known"? American man: I say that "God" is a word. Prabhupāda: You say "light" or "word." What is the . . . what is the definite . . . American man: I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me. Prabhupāda: That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God. American man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know . . . American man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Yes, anywhere. Light is here also. American man: And that's all there is. Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is all right. Light is here also, not only . . . American man: Light is here. Light is this table. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. American man: Light is this floor. Light is everything. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light. American man: Because for me, "God" is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word? Yogeśvara: I think you've been defeated. American man: No, no, I don't think I've been defeated. Prabhupāda: Yes. American man: And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, you . . . you fix up one thing. You say: "God is light." That word "light" is God? Or that . . . American man: I do not say God is light. Prabhupāda: Yes, you said that. American man: I say there is only light. I say there is only light. Prabhupāda: Only light? American man: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is God. American man: I do not speak of God, I speak of light. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know God. You accept one position. American man: I say there is light. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God. American man: What is God? Explain to me what is God. Prabhupāda: (aside) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time. American man: If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please. American man: He cannot explain to me. Prabhupāda: Then you go away. Please. What can I do? American man: It's as you wish. Prabhupāda: I cannot waste. American man: If you cannot explain to me what is God . . . I speak of light, so . . . Prabhupāda: But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything. American man: I just speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said. Dhanañjaya: You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come. American man: Oh, I'll come. (leaves) Bhagavān: Why was he brought in in the first place? Anyway, we can continue, but . . . Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: "Is there some . . . any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa , they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says that . . . Yogeśvara: Degree of covering. "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?" Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all. Yogeśvara: By past karma . Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She asks if by repeating the mantra , the name of God, it has more . . . Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified. Yogeśvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She says: "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God a day." Yogeśvara: Per day. Every day. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes. Madame Devi: (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God. Madame Devi: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. (end) Conversation -- June 17, 1974, Germany (Conversation with German Women Philosophers) Pṛthu: (translating guest's comments) . . . that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be . . . she has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that. Prabhupāda: After death? Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone will get that peace? (translated into German throughout) German lady (1): (German) (break). Pṛthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace. Prabhupāda: The cats and dogs? Everyone? The same? German lady (1): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on. Prabhupāda: So what is that difference? (break) Pṛthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have . . . animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts. Prabhupāda: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose . . . just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? (break) Pṛthu: She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and . . . Prabhupāda: But the activity is the same: eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spiritual, this. She says that is . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. I think the . . . when a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (break) Pṛthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the . . . but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence. Prabhupāda: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence? Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (break) . . . such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced: the dog or the man? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: Yes, she admits that the man, by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do that, she says. Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (break) Pṛthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and . . . Prabhupāda: So is that very good intelligence? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She's, this intelligence is . . . Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? German lady (1): (German) (break) Haṁsadūta: . . . like to have more, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Pṛthu: She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he actually misuses his intelligence. Prabhupāda: But God has given intelligence for this bad work? German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind. Prabhupāda: Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now, suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is the evil in mankind. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the conclusion is that the so*-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. German ladies: (German) Prabhupāda: And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? (break) Pṛthu: She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men. Prabhupāda: Bad men also will get peace? German lady (1): (German) Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see how nonsense philosophers they are. German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is not, this . . . she's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men. Prabhupāda: She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: So this lady's point is, where shall the bad man go after death? Prabhupāda: He'll become a dog. German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell. *Prabhupāda: He may not believe, but hell is there. If . . . (aside) You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ ( BG 14.18). Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said: "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ . Pṛthu: What is it? Prabhupāda: Ūrdhvam . And she is a philosopher? German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: She says she is a primitive, simple man. Prabhupāda: But still not willing to go to hell. (aside) You found? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. *Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ . . . *Prabhupāda: Sattva*-sthāḥ. Satsvarūpa: "Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets, those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets, and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." Prabhupāda: Just . . . translator. Satsvarūpa: Page 666 . . . well, it's 14.18. (devotee translates into German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where this hellish worlds are? Prabhupāda: They're, they are different planets. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: She wants to know how we know this. Prabhupāda: From the books. (break) German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: So she feels . . . it seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to . . . to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them. Prabhupāda: Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus' order. (break) Pṛthu: . . . she saying. Prabhupāda: Jesus has given some instruction or not? German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: So he says that Jesus has given some directions, and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves, and that we should not do any harm to him. Prabhupāda: But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell. Is it not? Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: Yes, yes. She says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teaching, like the Jesus said. Prabhupāda: Eternally hellish life. Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: She makes no . . . she said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much, because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus . . . this was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus . . . Prabhupāda: I don't follow. What is that? Hmm? Satsvarūpa: She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus. Prabhupāda: Who? Satsvarūpa: This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did, because he was long ago. Prabhupāda: Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus? German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give . . . Prabhupāda: That means everyone has rejected Jesus. German lady (3): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pṛthu: She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly. Haṁsadūta: Literally. Pṛthu: Literally. Prabhupāda: Hmm? I do not follow. Haṁsadūta: That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally, because who knows. Prabhupāda: Then why do you quote? (break) Pṛthu: So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true. Prabhupāda: But if you . . . if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (break) . . . new truth. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes . . . Prabhupāda: So there is no truth. It is all hodgepodge. German lady (3): (German) Pṛthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what . . . Prabhupāda: So it is a hodgepodge. (laughter) German lady (2): (German) Pṛthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pṛthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements . . . Prabhupāda: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally. Pṛthu: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of taking Bible? German lady (2): (German) (break) Pṛthu: . . . that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (break) (end) Conversation -- June 19, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Professor Durckheim, Dr. P. J. Saher and Professor Porsch) Professor Durckheim: . . . and to write books, and people came, and today we have there what you would call a little āśrama , mostly about fifty, sixty persons living there, coming, going; no patients, just people who try to discover their real self, nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That's our work we are trying to do. Prabhupāda: So Absolute Truth is realized in three aspect: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate ( SB 1.2.11). Some realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, others realize the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, and the final realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are cultivating the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So which aspect you are cultivating: the Paramātmā or the impersonal Brahman or the Personality of Godhead? Professor Durckheim: You can't help cultivate all three in the long run. Prabhupāda: No, all three are one. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: All three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain—somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place—everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India—or everywhere—some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness. Professor Durckheim: As Buddhists do. Prabhupāda: Buddhists, they, I think, they . . . yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa . Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization. Professor Durckheim: To stop the? Prabhupāda: Realization. To become zero. Is not that? Professor Durckheim: To become? I didn't understand. Prabhupāda: Zero. Devotee: Zero. Professor Durckheim: Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of view of the old ego it's zero, but this zero is everything from . . . (indistinct) . . . from the point of view of the natural ego it's zero and once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. It's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety; and some, localized Paramātmā; and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man: first of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating in healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa , negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong? Professor Durckheim: You are certainly right. We see the . . . it is a big . . . in our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality. Prabhupāda: Yes, different it is. The same example as I gave you: in diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception. Professor Durckheim: The dead. Person who is dead. Prabhupāda: We take this body—dead always. This body is actually dead. Just like this microphone is made of iron. It is iron. When it is working, responding, at that time also it is iron. And when it is out of order, does not work, it is also iron. Similarly, this body is working on account of the living force within. When the living force is out, it is called dead. But actually it is dead always. The living force is the important thing. That is making him alive. Actually, alive or dead, it is dead matter. But the living force is the active principle. That is distinguishing this body as dead or alive. But factually it is dead always. *That is the beginning of instruction, Bhagavad*-gītā : "Arjuna, you are lamenting for this body, but the body is dead." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11). So unless we know that . . . (aside) Don't make cut-cut . The dead body is not the subject matter of study, either it is in working order or it is in dead order. The subject matter of study is the active principle which makes the dead body moving. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā . (aside) Read that portion. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "The Blessed Lord said, While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." Prabhupāda: What is your opinion about this? Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter but makes matter alive? Prabhupāda: That active principle, life, or living soul. Professor Durckheim: Yes, how do you make them . . . Devotee: How do you teach them? Professor Durckheim: . . . teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel? Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be, "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā . First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is un . . . aware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy. Professor Durckheim: No, that's quite clear. *Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad*-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking, I am asking my student, "Come here," he comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"—he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question still? It is quite clear for our rational mind: I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, let's say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion. Because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says . . . talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says: "Well, you must make exercises . . ." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom. *Prabhupāda: No, as I say, the active principle . . . I am also the active principle, that active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham. So 'ham , "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self*-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54): "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly," prasannātmā . He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati : "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu : "He is equal to everyone—man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54): "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all . . . just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized, because he has understood "What I am." Yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that, "I am part and parcel of God, so my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service. Professor Durckheim: I say, Master, that when you say he knows, you don't speak about this knowledge. Prabhupāda: Which knowledge? Professor Durckheim: You came already . . . you say: "Believe, and by this know that I am participating in the great divine person." And yet I didn't experience it. *Prabhupāda: Why not experience? He knows that, "I am that active principle." Everyone knows that, "I am not this body." When I say: "This is my finger," I don't say "I finger." So "I," what "I am"? That realization, self*-realization that, "I am part and parcel of God," so that he knows that, "I am part and parcel of God. So therefore my duty is to serve God." So they are engaged in serving God. *So this serving God, or devotional service, is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā . . . (aside) Find out that verse, that: *So unless one is self*-realized, he cannot be engaged in the service of the Supreme Self. Ordinarily, a master and a servant, a servant knows that "I am engaged by the master. He is giving me food, he is giving me shelter—he is giving me everything for his serving." So he is careful in his service. This is a material example. Similarly, self-realization, ultimately, as I told you, that first impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramātmā, and then the yogīs , they realize the localized Paramātmā. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs , they observe the Supersoul within himself, and they meditate upon Him. (aside) What is that verse? Satsvarūpa: Translation: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." Prabhupāda: This is our process. Professor Durckheim: A long way to get there. Prabhupāda: And the process is going on. The chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, by this process they fully realize that the master, the Supreme Being, and engages himself always. These European, American boy, they are all educated. Not . . . in your country, of course, the young men . . . Professor Durckheim: They are educated too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? (break) "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin A, B, C, D. And why should you kill animals? Why should we give trouble to the others?" This is self*-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same, the body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: Well, may I put a question, Master? On the way there should be progress, inner progress. How to realize that there is a progress? I would say one thing is very important. There are three sufferings in the world of mankind: fear of annihilation, despair if you are taken by something which is absurd, and loneliness, if you are alone. These three sufferings in the world for the natural being. I realize that you make a decisive step on your inner way when you feel life in the very moment when you have to die, when you feel the great meaning in the very moment when you are just having despair, and when you feel the great love of the person God exactly while you are lonely in the world. And I have realized that we are now in a very decisive moment in the Western world because for the first time in the history of mankind, the Western people, in Europe and the States, start to take seriously certain experiences, inner experiences, where this truth is revealed. In all times, as far as I see, the great condition of the East, they knew about those experiences where death loses its terrifying character and becomes the threshold to some bigger life. And I always see with also my disciples, as soon as they learn to go through some kind of death, they awake on a new level. So I will say if people are in my place and after a week they still sleep very well, then I have made a mistake. About that sleep, just to realize something in overcoming their usual needs, their usual fears, their usual habits, in order to touch inwardly another level, and then suddenly they realize there is some quite different principle at work as they see usually in their natural mind. Prabhupāda: So that different principle, for a devotee, is already realized. Because a devotee never thinks of this body that, "I am this body." He thinks "I am . . ." ahaṁ brahmāsmi : "I am spirit soul." So without that realization, there is no question of devotional life. So that is first understood. That instruction is being given by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna that, "You are considering very seriously on this body, but a learned man does not take this body very seriously, either dead or alive." That is the first realization. So everyone in this world, they are concerned with this body, dead or alive. When alive, they take care of the body in so many ways, and when dead they erect big statue upon it. So that realization is this body. When it is alive, very nicely dressed, nicely groomed, nicely everything on account of this body, and when dead, then again the statue, the tomb, that's all, but missing the active principle. He is taking care of this body even after death by erecting very nice memorial, but he has no knowledge where the active principle has lost. That is ignorance. Professor Durckheim: When I was a young man, I was four years in the World War. Prabhupāda: Four years. *Professor Durckheim: Four years. Forty*-eight months almost in the foremost front. And I was one of the two officers . . . Prabhupāda: In First World War? First World War? Professor Durckheim: World War I, 1914 to 1918. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I was one of the two officers who were not wounded in my regiment. And there I met death again and again. And I saw people just killed next to me. Suddenly it was out. It was just only, as you say, the body without soul. But I realized also, in myself, that when death was near and you had accepted death, accepted to die, then you realized something which has nothing to do whatsoever with death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: So this marked me very much. It's the very beginning of my inner way, these four years of World War. *Prabhupāda: There is a verse, nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). If one is God-realized soul, he is not afraid of anything. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. So actually, if one is self-realized, he is no more fearful or concerned with the bodily necessities of life. That is liberation. Just like as you mentioned sleeping. Sleeping also, a bodily necessity. When you are tired, you sleep. That is bodily necessity. But it is not spiritually necessary. About the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau : "Conquered over sleeping, eating, mating." That is also one of the symptoms of self-realization. These things are necessities of the body. So the more one is advanced in self-realization, these things will be minimized: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. And gradually it will come to nil, because this is bodily necessities. Self, the active principle, that is different. The active principle, necessity is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. But these are bodily necessities: eating, sleeping, mating. So, so long this body is there, of course, we must eat, we must sleep. That is required. But the more we advance, these necessities diminished. Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). Then sleeping will be considered a waste of time. A self-realized man goes to sleep, he thinks that, "I am going to waste so much time, because still I am subjected to the necessities of this body." He regrets. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a sequence of experiences, isn't it, of inner experiences? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a progress of inner experiences. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I do believe that at the actual moment still, the treasure in the European peoples, the different peoples who went through the war, through concentration camps, through battlefields and bombing nights, are hidden in their hearts certain moments when death was near and they were wounded and nearly torn in pieces. Because they had a certain experience they survived. And again and again, when I give a lecture, I have two or three people waiting, telling me, "Now you just reminded me an experience long ago, ten days ago, two months ago, when I thought I was a little bit crazy, and now I understand it has been the experience, perhaps the most important of my life, on which I should have built my future inner way." And these experiences are still there. And once people understand, they don't need a war and a battleship and a concentration camp and a bombing night to take serious certain inner experiences when they are suddenly are touched by this divine reality, and they suddenly feel that this bodily existence is not lasting at all. Prabhupāda: That's it. That we can experience every night. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. *Prabhupāda: When you dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So, and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such*-and-such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually, I am different from the mind. And that is self-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā : indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). (aside) Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ . That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he, the soul, is even higher than the intelligence." Prabhupāda: This is description. Professor Durckheim: May I put a question, sir, to the question of time, the meaning of time? I think there are two ways to look at time and to look at eternity. Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. Time is eternal, but we calculate time, past and present and future, according to my temporary material existence. Just like a small ant—the ant's past and present is different from my past and present. Professor Durckheim: Is different from . . .? Prabhupāda: My past and present. I am a human being. I live for hundred years. So my past and present is different from the ant who lives for, say, a few hours. Professor Durckheim: Is different from? Prabhupāda: From the ant, a small living entity. And similarly, Brahmā, his past, present is different because he has done millions and millions of years as one day. So the time is eternal, but according to our condition, occupying the time and space, we calculate past and present and future. Otherwise time itself is eternal. Professor Durckheim: Well, now I question you. You see, talking about eternity, there are two meanings or concepts at the same time. The one is that the finite life is going on infinitely, infinity, millions of year. That is one way to think about eternity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: But there is another one. Prabhupāda: Eternity means, we say, no beginning, no end. That is eternity. Professor Durckheim: Isn't there also this other one, when, for instance, Christ says: "I am before Abraham was"? This "I am." There is one kind of eternity which has nothing to do with past and future at all, which is beyond past and future. Prabhupāda: Past and future is concerned with this body. Professor Durckheim: Is concerned with this body. It is concerned, exactly, with this body and with this ego, with regard to which there is a "before" and an "after," an "up" and "down." And if you take away this ego, what's there? What's left? *Prabhupāda: That is pure ego. Now I am born Indian, say, seventy*-five years ago, or seventy-eight years ago, and I have got this Indian body, I have got this false ego that, "I am Indian, I am this body." This is misconception. Professor Durckheim: That is one way to look at time. But it's not the . . . Prabhupāda: Time is there, but because I have got this temporary body, I am thinking past, present, future. The temporary body will be vanished. I shall get another temporary body. Then again my begins past and present. So therefore this is called illusion. Time is eternal. It has no beginning, no end, but we transmigrate from one body to another. We are calculating, miscalculating, past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: Yes, time has no beginning and no end. But time in this second sense has nothing to do with beginning and end. Prabhupāda: It has no end . . . beginning, no end. The beginning and end is of this body. And in relationship with this body, we are calculating past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body. Prabhupāda: I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become . . . Prabhupāda: No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness—he may be a very nice man—he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man. I am very . . ." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting, "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa ," "I am śūdra "—so many designation. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity. Professor Durckheim: But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure. Prabhupāda: The consciousness is covered by impurity, just like your health is covered by disease, and the symptom is fever. But that is a covering. That is not your healthy state. Similarly, my consciousness, when I think that, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," that is impurity. And when he thinks that, "I am neither German, neither American, nor this nor that—I am part and parcel of God," that is pure consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But in order to get there, to feel that one is neither this nor that, one must have suffered by first having thought that one is this or that. Prabhupāda: That suffering is just like you suffer in the dream. You are attacked by a tiger. There is no tiger. Actually there is no suffering. But on account of ignorance, you are thinking, "The tiger is eating me." Professor Durckheim: Yes, but this is a very good example, because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience is also material. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. Prabhupāda: That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dream and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane. That, it is stated: *So we have to transcend the platform of intelligence also. Then we come to the platform of spiritual realization. That is instructed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) What happened to your eyes? Devotee: I was cut. Prabhupāda: How? Devotee: I was in an automobile accident. Prabhupāda: Oh. Haṁsadūta: But he's all right. Prabhupāda: Others also? Haṁsadūta: No it's. It's just a cut here. *Prabhupāda: So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to real consciousness. That real consciousness is that, "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight because you designated yourself that, "I am German." This is an example that, "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self*-realization. *Just like the Arjuna. Arjuna was put into the ba . . . you have read Bhagavad*-gītā , I think, this Bhagavad-gītā ? Professor Durckheim: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he was thinking in terms of designation that, "I am . . . I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin*-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11): "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first thing, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā , when he understood that, "I am not this body; *I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self*-realization, not for this body. *Professor Durckheim: No.There is only one way to world peace: through self*-realization of those who are responsible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Self*-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā , that one should understand that, "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany," "This is England," "This is France," "This is India," "This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean" and "This is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding that, "Nothing belongs to us . . ." The United Nation, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground, because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace. *Professor Durckheim: As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the high priest, now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu after the other one. Only one resisted, in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said: "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword master asked him—he was a realized man—"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said: "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said: "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self*-realized man, said: "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize, that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that. So if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful. *Professor Durckheim: In my work I always feel the great difficulty again and again, sir, and is always there. It's a great difference to believe that you are the son of God and to feel it and to experience it. As long it's only a belief, it's well*-meaning doing. How to prepare the conditions by which disciples might feel it? That's all of my daily work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like . . . it is very simple thing. Just like if I say . . . suppose you have not seen your father—you are posthumous child—but you must believe that there is father. Without father there is no possibility of my existence. That is belief. And in the Christian . . . Professor Durckheim: Experience it. *Prabhupāda: This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily . . . father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (aside) Find out this: *Kṛṣṇa says, God says: "I am the seed*-giving father of all living entities in different forms of life." Professor Durckheim: There is one difficulty in the Western part of the world which might not be so great in the Eastern part. If . . . I realize in Japan, when they talk about father and mother, especially also mother, it was all something to be loved, to be grateful, to submit. In our countries now, the father is generally the one who does not understand anymore his son, and the son has to get rid of his body father in order to be able to realize himself. So very often the main obstacle in our youth is the image of mother and father, because they have never understood their children. So the word father for many people in the Western part of the world . . . Prabhupāda: Misunderstood. Professor Durckheim: Is a misunder . . . is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today. I have to very much . . . Prabhupāda: It is not religion; it is fact. It is not . . . religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son . . . without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. Yes. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son. Or more son. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment. Professor Durckheim: It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says: "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that . . . the Christians, so*-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say: "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that, "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that, "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact. He is the supreme father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. (aside) Read that śloka . Satsvarūpa: *"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed*-giving father." Prabhupāda: Just see. Professor Durckheim: Wonderful. *Prabhupāda: Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated, in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self*-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu , equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facilities to the human being, not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. "National" means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of national. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all . . . everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that, "I am this body." But when we understand that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self-realization. Professor Durckheim: And this understanding has to be an experience. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is experienced, but on account of his foolishness he is thinking otherwise. He knows that, "I am not this body. I am now in this body of an old man, but I was not in this body, say, fifty years ago. Therefore I am not this body, that body or this body. I am different from the body." This is very easy experience. I am existing. I understand that I existed in a baby's body, I existed in a child's body, boy's body. So I have now changed so many bodies. Therefore I am not this body. Just like you dress. You are now in black coat, and next moment you can be in other color. But you are not this coat; *you have changed the coat. Similarly, I have changed the body, but I am not this body. This is self*-realization. First of all let me know that, "I am not this body, I am living within this body." You are not this coat. If I ask you, "Mr. Black Coat" that is my foolishness. You are neither black coat or white coat. And that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: And yet isn't there difficulty? You can already have understood very well that you are not the body, but as long, for instance, as you have still fear of death, you didn't understand by experience. As soon as you understood by experience, you have no fear of death because you know that you can't die. Prabhupāda: So experience is received by higher knowledge. Experience means higher knowledge. Just like a child . . . Professor Durckheim: Experience means . . .? Prabhupāda: Higher knowledge. Higher knowledge. Professor Durckheim: As soon as you have the experience, you get the higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the more you are highly elevated in knowledge, your experience is perfect. Professor Durckheim: I would like to say the other way around: As more as you are advanced in experience, the more you have higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: But experience, it may be slow. But higher knowledge you can get immediately. Professor Durckheim: Yes. Like flash. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa says . . . Professor Durckheim: When it's awakening. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that you are not this body. So instead of my experiencing for years and years that, "I am not this body," we take the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect, and my experience is now received. Professor Durckheim: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru . That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham . Now, Who is guru ? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru , śrotriyam , who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru . Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru , he is not guru . This is called guru-paramparā , disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our . . . (aside) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. Yes. So I am always inexperienced, because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. He asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone." That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge. You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. *We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because the source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God, and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God, who has come directly from Him, the same. So . . . but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure. Not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him, and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). This is . . . evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (aside) Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science, as it is, appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: That's it. Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the Western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Professor Durckheim: You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our Western, as you know better than I do, in our Western mankind . . . and they say: "Well, after all . . ." You see, science, they say: "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said: "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me, you have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31): "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life." Professor Durckheim: No, nothing. *Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatim . Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ : "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very, quite visible in the Western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life—to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ . Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā . That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha . The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the . . . Professor Durckheim: They won't move at all, blind . . . Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are being frustrated. Professor Durckheim: There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question, which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question. Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end . . . Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna , or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into . . . Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than . . . lower animals—birds, beast and other—they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating. Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being, we are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have no even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice, nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die; then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense even. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars—war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only . . . without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living, "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that, "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that, "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live, and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cow dung, we have stacked here. I have seen. They are also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. Buddhism, there is no animal killing, although they are now killing animals. But originally Buddha religion means nonviolence. Also Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says ahiṁsā . So in no religion unnecessary killing of animal is allowed. Even in Muhammadans, they are also . . . Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted. Professor Durckheim: May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away? Prabhupāda: No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientist . . . Professor Durckheim: That's what I mean. Prabhupāda: . . . Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose. The trees have got sensation. Professor Durckheim: So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree . . . Prabhupāda: No, we don't kill. You take the fruits. Professor Durckheim: We cut it. Prabhupāda: Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary. Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra : *That "Those who have no hands"—that means animals—"they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four*-legged." Just like grass has no leg, but it is a food for the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, nunam mahatām tatra , "Then one who is powerful, very powerful . . ." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the . . . that is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. *But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda . So Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me these foodstuff." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam , the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra , to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization. Not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy. Yes. Haṁsadūta: There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening. Prabhupāda: No, let them come here. (break) We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: I have published about fourteen books like this. Professor Durckheim: Incredible. Incredible. What a thing! Prabhupāda: (guests enter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You can put this side. German devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Saher. He is the leader of the Society of Yoga and Integral Philosophical Studies in Germany. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. (laughter and indistinct background comments) So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. (devotee translates into German for guests) I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment . . . not at the present moment; *always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is . . . (break) . . . then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). That is one. (aside) You serve it out. *So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one: to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self*-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozens. But our only writing is the goal of life: Kṛṣṇa. Professor Durckheim: May I come back once to my question, Master, the relationship between belief and experience? Because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks. Prabhupāda: No, believe the authority. That is the . . . that is better than experience. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And that is what in our country is . . . I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on. Prabhupāda: (aside) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief . . . Professor Durckheim: They realize that now belief, which is not faith, has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts. And they don't believe what you tell them; they just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a . . . big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. (to guest) That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so? Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that . . . first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas , that is perfect. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge— Veda , Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge—so that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas , just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually, these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question, Master? You see, the belief, the understanding, is always depending on the level of the one who wants to understand, and that's the level of our quite natural, normal mind of the usual general person. And there is another level, where certain experiences open the door to some deeper consciousness. And, as you know, one of the key words of the Christian religion is, in the Gospels, that you have to turn around, to make annoia , to pierce through a certain skin to get quite another level. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And from this level the heaven opens to those who didn't understand what the heaven means. They thought it was behind the clouds. You see, there is a natural way to look at God, and this natural way to look at God is lost as soon as people go through the rational mind. And then there is no other way out but to have a personal, initiated experience. We talk about initiation when people are capable to go through a certain death and to discover another level, and only . . . and so, the great wisdom which you are talking about, I am sure that it also touches people on two levels. There is the ordinary man, and he might believe, but there is a deeper level, where things start to change yourself, to transform yourself in deeper experiences. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . that is the beginning of instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā . (indistinct background comments) The beginning of knowledge . . . German lady: Excuse me. Would you please explain for some people who don't speak English here, in German, because we don't know all of your words? Professor Durckheim: Yes, but I didn't want to interrupt the Master. Prabhupāda: No. I have no objection if somebody translates into German. Haṁsadūta: Vedavyāsa can translate. (German) Professor Durckheim: Do you permit me to repeat it in German? For those who are present here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: (German) (break) Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding: Yes. What is the translation? *Satsvarūpa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: And now . . . Haṁsadūta: (to devotee) You want to translate? Translate. (devotee translates into German from this point) *Prabhupāda: Yes, translate. This is the basic principle of knowledge that, "I am not this body, I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge that, "I am not this . . ." At the present moment everything . . . that I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self*-interest means this bodily interest. *(aside) Explain this. (German translation) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that, "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform—what is knowledge? First of all one must know that, "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book, Bhagavad*-gītā . Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the Western world an opposition from the Christian side, where the key word is that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh? Prabhupāda: That's all right. We accept it. Professor Durckheim: The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (repeats in German) Prabhupāda: Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said? Professor Durckheim: Spirit? You see I have very often . . . I saw the difference. Haṁsadūta: The spirit becomes the flesh. Professor Durckheim: The spirit becomes flesh. Prabhupāda: That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin, and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand it. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. (to professor) I think I have understood your point? Professor Durckheim: Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me—I might be wrong—that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think, that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (repeats in German) Prabhupāda: Now, what is our suffering? Professor Durckheim: I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad*-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not? Professor Durckheim: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life, I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated: birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings—there are many kinds; these are the main kinds—we have to get out of this body. That is the problem. Professor Durckheim: Through many lives. Prabhupāda: Many life or this life. In this life you understand that, "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately. Professor Durckheim: May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No. Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. Professor Durckheim: (translates question into German) German lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christian? Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians, who also certainly want to become independent from this body, which wants material life only. Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or . . . knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge . . . Vedavyāsa: I think I should translate, Prabhupāda. (German) Prabhupāda: Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Muhammadan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge, we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. Professor Durckheim: (translates) (break) Vedavyāsa: (translating question) . . . stress on this point, that we are existing in a body but we should accept our existence as human being. Prabhupāda: Existence as human being you want? So do you think human being is existing in this body is perfect? (Vedavyāsa translates questions and answers from this point) Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I don't say it is perfect. (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says yes, he accepts that our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the ideal should be how to become perfect. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he asks, "How to become perfect: as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem, how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit. Prabhupāda: Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people. Prabhupāda: So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk, " Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu. " Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He thinks there's a great difference between the talking of birds and bees and our talking. Prabhupāda: Why difference? They are talking in their community; you are talking in your community. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) *Haṁsadūta: No, he has said a very good point. He said there is a difference, because an animal has no self*-consciousness. He does not understand what he is in essence. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real point. Dr. P. J. Saher: I communicate myself, but . . . *Prabhupāda: That is the real point, that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts. Therefore the Brahma*-sūtra , Vedānta-sūtra , instructs in the beginning, athāto brahma jijñāsā : "This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit, or Absolute Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. (aside) You take the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , First Canto, first part, yes. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Satsvarūpa: It's not here. First part is not here. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā yaś . . . kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ (SB 1.2.10). Have you found? Satsvarūpa: Yes, but I . . . it's two. Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It is in the first volume. That book is not here. Devotee: Someone is bringing. Prabhupāda: So he has gone? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says: "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (aside) Read this verse. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (Vedavyāsa translates into German) *Prabhupāda: Te . . . what is that? Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā : inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being. Professor Durckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view, or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one, we are never talking about, has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That this goes together. (translates into German) Prabhupāda: Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that, "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. Professor Durckheim: (German) Vedavyāsa: He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained here, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā . That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts, but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth, but under, among us. Prabhupāda: So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: So he asks, is it a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind . . . Prabhupāda: But you cannot do good to others, because you do not know what is good. (laughs) You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false; therefore your conception of goodness is also false. Dr. P. J. Saher: I cannot accept that the body is false. Prabhupāda: No, no. I withdraw that word "false." But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. Just like . . . Dr. P. J. Saher: I think so. I live my identity with the body. Prabhupāda: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. Dr. P. J. Saher: I am only . . . Prabhupāda: You are simply . . . just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment; *I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. If I simply decorate this body, as the apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the . . . (chuckles) This is false attempt, that we are trying . . . this is called . . . in the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing . . . so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because, he says . . . Prabhupāda: But because he does not know that he is not this body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body. Prabhupāda: No, "remains" means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years' time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours . . . it is a question of hours and years. (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . saying that this body is . . . the soul is eminent. Prabhupāda: The soul is different from the body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of . . . actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. P. J. Saher: As long as we are alive. Vedavyāsa: "As long as we are alive we are . . ." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (break) . . . soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He doesn't want to separate. Prabhupāda: But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives. Professor Durckheim: I think the difference is now just one, that Sir . . . (indistinct) . . . spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore. (German) Professor Porsch: May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks, "I am the spirit. I have a body," or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; he is covered by this body. Another example: Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important . . . important . . . it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it—it is torn—you throw it away. You take another coat. *Professor Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not*-self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny. Prabhupāda: Must separate. Must separate. Professor Porsch: Either through death or destiny. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body, which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding. Professor Durckheim: (German) I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by 'realize the eternal truth'?" (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: I would like very much of . . . (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim, but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this . . . by His son. Professor Durckheim: Real life consists . . . (indistinct) . . . father by his son. That's a saying of the Gospels. That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. Dr. P. J. Saher: Back to your question. Haṁsadūta: Professor Durckheim's question was, very simply, "What is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process? Professor Durckheim: Because we would learn what's your way. Haṁsadūta: What is our process? Prabhupāda: The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth, by association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God, then gradually you become godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire: it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red hot. When it is red hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God, then gradually you become godly, or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (break) Professor Durckheim: . . . holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Of God. *Prabhupāda: If you don't like to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant in your own way. But chant the name of God. If you know the name of God, chant it. If you do not know, then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name, and if you don't know, then take it from me. (break) . . . explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that God has many thousands of name or God has no name. No name means He has . . . He has got so many thousands of millions of name that you cannot say: "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say: "Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Kṛṣṇa . This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. I think you said the Lord Jesus Christ said: "God, hallowed be Thy name." Satsvarūpa: The Lord's Prayer, "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. Professor Durckheim: (explains in German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He says from the Old Testament when Jesus said: "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name, because if we . . . Prabhupāda: So how He can be no name? He says: "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that. Vedavyāsa: But there's no name in the Bible . . . Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean . . . he might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says: "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you do not know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name? He said: "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name, but you do not know it. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to . . . Prabhupāda: Because there is name, you find out. Vedavyāsa: He said that when it says: "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So that we say, that God has no particular name. But according to His action, His name is done. Just like "Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa" is not the name. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractiveness. Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because he's man of knowledge, therefore he's called Buddha. Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached . . . Prabhupāda: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge. Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody. Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like you say: "Hallowed be thy name, president." President. Now the president has a name, but you do not know. But the president must have a name. Professor Porsch: Has the name a special, esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name . . . has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened . . . Prabhupāda: No, not hidden but open, because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute, that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute, you become purified. Professor Porsch: Like iron in fire. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's right. (break) . . . the Vedic injunction: *For your perfection you simply chant the name of the Lord, harer nāma, harer nāma. Harer means "Of the Lord," and nāma means "name." Thrice. Just like we give stress three times, "You do it. You do it. You do it." This is a good stress. Similarly, the śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma, nāma eva kevalam : "Simply chant the Lord's name," kalau , "in this age of Kali." Nāsty eva, nāsty eva, nāsty eva gatir anyathā. "There is no other alternative for self*-realization, no other alternative for self-realization." Therefore stress should be given for everyone to chant the holy name of the Lord. Kali means the age of quarrel. The age of quarrel. This age is simply for fighting and quarreling. They're not interested to understand the Absolute Truth, but they're interested in fighting and quarreling. Therefore this age called Kali. Kali means fighting. Professor Porsch: Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God, and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German), what should be done in addition to that, or how it is, how it is formulated in the, in the total, in that complete system of your relevant teachings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the bhakti*-mārga , means the first thing is śravaṇam , hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God, we simply imagine something . . . no. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly, then you can describe to others. That is called kīrtanam. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. And when the process goes on, hearing and chanting or describing— kīrtanam means describing . . . just like our this whole Society is hearing from these books, and they're going out to describe. This is called kīrtanam . Then, by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaraṇam . That means remembering, you always associate with God. Professor Porsch: So at all times, "Remember Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pāda-sevanam; arcanaṁ vandanam , offer prayer; dāsyam , serve. In this way, there are nine different processes. Professor Porsch: We have a similar thing in the Christian in relation to (German). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti . That is bhakti . (break) Kali*-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth, but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say: "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions, and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says: "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this," is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united. But they're increasing flags, that's all. Fighting. It is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam . . . it was meant for unity, but it is rendered into fighting association, that's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, and he wants to give his perfect knowledge. *German lady: Do you mean the Kali*-yuga exists all the time? *Prabhupāda: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed . . . (break) Instead of making solution, the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma*-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth, is that from which, or from whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the . . . everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim, that if you follow these philosophical quotes, then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the Society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth, and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear . . . you do it like this." That is wanted. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . this was the always the desire of mankind and to find . . . he says the kings should be wise, and the wise men should be kings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedavyāsa: So he said that this was always the desire, but . . . Prabhupāda: But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring, but whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire in one way; I desire in my way. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . saying that knowledge is important also . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Knowledge, that is described. Knowledge is according to the quality of the person. If the man is a debauch, what is the value of his knowledge? We cannot take up the knowledge that's given by a debauch. The perfect human being is described, śamo damas titikṣā, ārjava . (aside) Find out. Satsvarūpa: Yes. German lady: (German) Vedavyāsa: She says that we cannot have heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it. Prabhupāda: No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can mend, because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Translation? *Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, calmness, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." Prabhupāda: That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He doubts that everyone is convinced about that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Vedavyāsa: He's doubting if we should convince them of that. *Prabhupāda: Well, who is not self*-controlled, he'll not be convinced, because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control? Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is. Professor Durckheim: But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the ascetic step you get somewhere, you see, where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says: "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you . . . Prabhupāda: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction, that is also perfect. But they do not follow. Professor Durckheim: They do not . . .? Prabhupāda: They do not follow. Professor Durckheim: Sure. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Otherwise, either you follow Bhagavad*-gītā or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming, "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am this," "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification, but rubber stamp. This is the defect. Professor Durckheim: (German) (break) Vedavyāsa: . . . qualifications on the material platform. Prabhupāda: First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. Just like I think in the university, if one wants to learn about law, he must be graduate first of all. Professor Porsch: In India. Yes. Prabhupāda: So you, first of all become graduate, then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa , then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa , how you can understand? (break) *Satsvarūpa: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā ) ". . . three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German translation) (break) Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the Western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never . . . but you never asked us who we are and who we should become . . . (indistinct) . . ." This is the problem. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. Professor Durckheim: (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Vedavyāsa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: He said what you said, that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now . . . Prabhupāda: Actual program, the actual program is there. Dr. P. J. Saher: I would like another question. The difference, it seems to me, I know. (German) Prabhupāda: (knock on door) Later on. Later on. (break) *Vedavyāsa: He's speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization. First of all . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Vedavyāsa: We are speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing . . . if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these . . . Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. Yes. You haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will . . . you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way, they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending chant the holy name of God. So do it. (German comments) Not that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (break) Then how can I help you? There is name. You do not know. So our recommendation is—not my recommendation; *from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad*-gītā — satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty? Dr. P. J. Saher: To know the name. Because I . . . Prabhupāda: To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know, take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that? Dr. P. J. Saher: There's thousands and millions of . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: No. I said millions of names. I'm looking for the name and . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. But if I've given you the name, why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: Because I'm not convinced that is the right name. Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: How can I help? Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: You do not know the name. If somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take, that is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority: satataṁ kīrtayanto mām . Satsvarūpa: "Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion." Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) (break) . . . and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name, and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is, how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this? Prabhupāda: But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here, there's much difference. Dr. P. J. Saher: I mean, my question only, I saw singing the people . . . Prabhupāda: No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see. Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for truth. Prabhupāda: Phalena paricīyate . You have to see the resultant study. Professor Porsch: I was quite surprised. Prabhupāda: Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena paricīyate , you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes. That would be the criterion for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion is, when St. Paul speaks. They had the same . . . Prabhupāda: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion, that's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. (aside) Yes, you can take. (guests taking prasādam ) Vedavyāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the business in this age: chant the holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Not now. Later on. The simplest method—chant the holy name of God. That's all. Professor Porsch: And should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference? Prabhupāda: If you chant loudly, then others can hear. They also take benefit. Vedavyāsa: Shall I translate? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Vedavyāsa: Shall I translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Even the birds and beasts, they will hear and be benefited. Professor Porsch: (German) Prabhupāda: Therefore loud chanting is recommended, so that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. Professor Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below (in temple room). Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. (chuckles) One Christian priest—I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii—so he came to talk with me. He inquired, "Swāmījī, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes. Professor Porsch: Without drugs. Prabhupāda: Yes. And one Christian priest, he showed one pamphlet that, "These boys, they're our boys, but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it?" He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple—this was a church, big church, but it was not going on; it was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of . . . the same men, the same place. The crowd is so . . . why? I have not brought all these men from India. Just judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations—they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these . . . they have given up everything. Professor Durckheim: And they are working in the Society. They are working . . . Prabhupāda: We are working. We are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: We have no other . . . even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income? There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA . . ." What is this? (laughter) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that "We have no information that these people are CIA, but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution." That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very . . . if you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vṛndāvana center and Navadvīpa center, not less than 200 men are there, always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) Prabhupāda: Here is a girl, Kausalyā. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married, she's happy, she has everything there. Life is there. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. Satsvarūpa: May we take your leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. You sit down. I have no need . . . I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Kṛṣṇa's talk, that is your . . . (indistinct) . . . already. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why do you stop? Satatam . Go on, continuous. What is that? Satatam means? Satsvarūpa: Always? *Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ, namasyantaś ca mām . . . (BG 9.14). Professor Porsch: In what way can we support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can we offer optimal benefit to your movement? Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Professor Porsch: No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes. We have got a Life Membership program which can be . . . (indistinct) . . . can participate in that way. Prabhupāda: You can become a Life Member and read all these books and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; there is no material loss on your part. But if there is any gain, why don't you take it? *Professor Porsch: No, my question was perhaps a little . . . not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions, and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad*-gītā in this form, in such ways, perhaps? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are writing these books for distribution. Professor Porsch: Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Professor Porsch: Yes, good for what is . . . I was very . . . Prabhupāda: Here is my Dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books. *Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad*-gītā , Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: And what is the number of books sold last year? Satsvarūpa: Four million. Prabhupāda: Four million copies. Professor Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our . . . or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such, but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a first university in the tradition of the ancient times. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Porsch: A kind of a university of . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Professor Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences. *Prabhupāda: My idea is that all our centers should be self*-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go hundred miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New . . . West Virginia, Virginia. And similarly in other centers we are producing our food, grains—grains, vegetable, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animal. That we don't do. Professor Porsch: But will this center also be a kind of a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Professor Porsch: Yes. That is important. Prabhupāda: We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Yes. Professor Porsch: Thank you. Prabhupāda: (aside) You can play a little record. Last night . . . Haṁsadūta: This morning's recording? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Porsch: May I please ask, are there also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names? Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are exercising by dancing. Professor Porsch: Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupāda singing is played) Prabhupāda: Make little louder. (tape of Prabhupāda singing prayers to the six Gosvāmīs plays) What are these pictures? Haṁsadūta: These are pictures of our Society's activities in the temples. Professor Porsch: Very constructive and very . . . so much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966. *Prabhupāda: Sixty*-seven. Professor Porsch: And during the Bangladesh crisis you also . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone came, we feed. That much . . . there were many refugees, so we fed them. Professor Porsch: But that automatically answers the question of the gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see . . . Prabhupāda: No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also; there is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Māyāpur center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included. Professor Porsch: Included. German lady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food—everything. Professor Porsch: I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of . . . Prabhupāda: No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture can unite. This is the only place, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. (break) . . . distinction. Devotee: (showing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books) This is German. This is in Spanish, Chinese. Professor Porsch: (indistinct) . . . Chinese. Prabhupāda: Japanese also. And Hindi. Devotee: Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati. Professor Porsch: But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German) Prabhupāda: Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children. *Professor Porsch: And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "Easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by*-product, not a main aim . . . *Prabhupāda: No. We are teaching . . . of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil . . . we don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā , to inquire about the Absolute Truth. *Professor Porsch: So can you not say that this knowledge is an ātma*-vidyā , that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the ātman ? Prabhupāda: Ātmine ? Professor Porsch: Ātmā , self. *Prabhupāda: Oh, ātmā , yes. Tattva*-jijñāsā means ātma-jijñāsā . *Professor Porsch: That is why it is also correct to translate the term kṛṣṇa*-arjuna-saṁvara as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge. Prabhupāda: (aside) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical—everything is there. Professor Porsch: In the *Gītā* it also, a verse that, "Four kinds of persons seek Me." *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). Professor Porsch: "The man who seeks knowledge." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, catur*-vidhā . And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidhā . No. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Everything is there. *Professor Porsch: But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of . . . where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non*-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and we were . . . people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness . They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German). Professor Durckheim: But this time is over. Professor Porsch: Yes, yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: The modern times are not modern anymore. Professor Porsch: I agree with you, but just think how the world was only a few years ago. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational spirit, the really German tradition is the irrational. Professor Porsch: Yes, yes. I agree. Professor Durckheim: So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly. Prabhupāda: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on. Changing. Professor Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street . . . I don't mean . . . yes, of course, it was in the Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the . . . Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes. Professor Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German). (break) Professor Durckheim: . . . I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants, I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is . . . Prabhupāda: No, we invite everyone. Professor Durckheim: You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the Ober-(German) from Baden Wurttemberg, he is a Life Member. And all people . . . Devotee: We have doctors, lawyers . . . Professor Durckheim: He's simply a member? Haṁsadūta: Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and here as a member. But his lifestyle is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (end) Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Christians) Prabhupāda: Cannot find? Devotee: Yes. In German, just . . . Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee: (reads translation in German) (German discussion with guest) Prabhupāda: Sex life, married couple, that is all right; not otherwise. That is sinful. (translated into German throughout) *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, just his objection was that in this statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā doesn't clearly say no reason you should not have sex life outside of married life, they simply state religious principles, but this is . . . Prabhupāda: Religious principle means married life; otherwise cats and dogs. what is the . . . if everyone has without any limitation sex life, then what is the difference between cats and dogs? Religion means they are not cats and dogs, because religion is in the human society, not in the cats' and dogs' society. Guest: I agree that in the Christian . . . (indistinct) . . . also. And in the life who will come, will not be sexual life in the future in the perfection state. No there will no be the sexual life *Prabhupāda: Yes, in the spiritual life there is no sex life. In the spiritual world there is no sex intercourse. There is no sex life. Although there is man and woman, but there is no sex intercourse. By chanting the glories of God there in the spiritual world, they get so much great pleasure that is far beyond this pleasure of sex life. Something best, then you forget lower*-grade pleasure. So this sex pleasure is lower-grade pleasure. It is not pleasure, it is illusion. But in material world this is the greatest pleasure. Therefore everyone, they are coming back to the sex pleasure. Everyone. Even so-called religionists and svāmīs and . . . they are coming down to the sex pleasure. Because in this material world that is the only highest pleasure. So, so long one will be attracted by the sex pleasure, it is still in the material world. And when one will be on the platform to spit (makes spitting noise) on sex pleasure, then his spiritual life begins. That is stated by Yāmunācārya: Yāmunācārya, a great saintly person, he was formerly big king, so he said: "Since I have become Kṛṣṇa conscious and enjoying, since that time, as soon as I remember even sex life, I spit on it and my mouth becomes turned." (makes sound of repugnance) This is the test. Not that you become very advanced spiritualist and at the same time advance in sex life. That is not. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra . . . (SB 11.2.42). That is the test, that as soon as you are advanced in spiritual life, all these materialistic habits will be rejected automatically. This is the test. Four things are material demands—eating, satisfaction of the tongue or belly and satisfaction of the genital, āhāra ; and sleeping and to become good defender, defense measure. These are material necessity. And the one who is spiritually advanced, these things will be reduced, almost nil. What Christ says, Jesus Christ, about sex life? What does he say? Guest: Only in the married life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And in the future it will pass completely. (German) Devotee: (translating) So even if you are married sex life, can be material too. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also regulated. When the wife is menstrual period, so after five days you can have sex life, and as soon as she is pregnant, no more sex life. So sex life is meant for progeny, not for sense pleasure. Even the animals—dogs, cats—they have a period for sex life, and as soon as the female dog is pregnant, there will no more sex life. In certain months of the year they have sex life, not all the year. So even the dogs, they follow regulation, and we human being, we do not follow. The dogs have no restriction. The female dogs are naked, and they can capture anyone, anywhere, but they do not have unless there are certain period. (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in spiritual life, restricted regulated sex life is essential. Guest: (German) Devotee: (translating question) And religious is automatically regulated sex life? Prabhupāda: If it is religious life. If in the name of religion if it is sinful life, that is another thing. All right. Hare Krsna . . . (end) Conversation -- June 22, 1974, Germany (Conversation with Pater Emmanuel - a Benedictine monk) Prabhupāda: . . . see you. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Pater Emmanuel: I am so too. Prabhupāda: Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. It is translated in German too. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. This is just . . . I received a sample. Devotee: (translates into German) Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, yes. (looks at book) Who is author? Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa? Prabhupāda: He is my disciple. Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes. From India. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is in Cali . . . his description is there in the last page, his photograph. Pater Emmanuel: Oh, yes, yes. I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur. Prabhupāda: He is M.S. from Buffalo University, and he is Ph.D., chemistry, from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, yes. I see. Prabhupāda: You are coming from . . .? Pater Emmanuel: Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I come yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You can stay here. We have got place. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow. Devotee: He has a room upstairs. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery. Prabhupāda: You are Roman Catholic? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman rite, the Roman Catholic, and also the customs of life . . . it's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary. Prabhupāda: Like us. Pater Emmanuel: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo ? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ. Prabhupāda: Christo means Christ. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ, Kriza , Kristos , who is Christ by oil. Devotee: Anointed. Pater Emmanuel: Ya , Anointed. Christos , Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Prabhupāda: Saint? Pater Emmanuel: It's the same word. Devotee: The same word, Prabhupāda. Pater Emmanuel: Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, "anointed." Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa . Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting. Prabhupāda: Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa . And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor—the Sanskrit meaning, attractor. Pater Emmanuel: Attractor. *Prabhupāda: One who draws, draws everyone near. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa . And that all*-attractive drawer is God. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think so too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think that Christ (German). German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God . . . the name of God is . . . what is it? Pater Emmanuel: Christ. German devotee: Christ. Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ says to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why? Pater Emmanuel: We have name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Pater Emmanuel: We talk God, "Father" or "our Father." *Prabhupāda: No, "Father . . ." Just like your son may call you "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. Such*-and-such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, "God" is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the son of Christ, or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is . . . either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. (pause) Pater Emmanuel: Yes. When we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name . . . (German) German devotee: He says when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos, in the . . . Prabhupāda: This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. Pater Emmanuel: Because a name of God . . . we know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God, because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality—God Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed, is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ, the name is there. And we are recommending, according to Vedic scripture, that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are the name of God. And Harā is the energy of God. So we are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," or "God," along with His energy. He has got two energies—spiritual energy and material energy. So at the present moment we are under the jurisdiction of material energy. So we are praying to Kṛṣṇa, "Kindly transfer me from the service of material energy to the service of spiritual energy." *This is our whole philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means, "O the energy of God and O God, Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." Because our constitutional position is to give service. Some way or other, we have been put in the service of the material energy. So this service can be transferred to the spiritual energy. Then our life is successful. That is our philosophy, bhakti*-mārga, bhakti-yoga. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam ( CC Madhya 19.170). Here we are giving service as Hindu, as Muslim, as Christian, as Jain, as this or that. These are designation. Designation. When we become free of the designation and then serve God, that is called bhakti , or devotion. Just like we have manufactured Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion, this religion, that religion. But when the religion will be without designation—I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian, but I am servitor of God—that is pure religion. Pater Emmanuel: What is that? Prabhupāda: That is pure religion. Pater Emmanuel: Pure religion. Yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure religion means bhakti . Pater Emmanuel: Mukti , yes. Prabhupāda: Bhakti . Pater Emmanuel: Bhakti , yes. And mukti too. Prabhupāda: So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti , there is no mukti . Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti , he has already attained mukti . Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā . *(aside) Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa . German devotee: Māṁ ca ? Prabhupāda: Māṁ ca . I think he has.. Devotee: 14.26. German devotee: Translation in English? Prabhupāda: Let him . . . German translation will help you? Pater Emmanuel: Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but . . . (German) German devotee: 14.26. Prabhupāda: You read the purport. (devotee reads in German) Prabhupāda: He wants chair? Give him. Yes, go on. German devotee: (continues with German) Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Again? Devotee: Brahman. *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Yes, He is Para*-brahman. Para-brahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman . . . Pater Emmanuel: Internalized Brahman. Yes, I see *Prabhupāda: . . . and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman, because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva*-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti , the impersonal Brahman; paramātmeti , the localized Paramātmā; and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences: the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead. Pater Emmanuel: That's very good. Prabhupāda: And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he become associate of God. Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way. Prabhupāda: No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, but we are limited. *Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names—not one or two, but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara*-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise, He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotee) Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God's love? Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real love. Pater Emmanuel: Will that mean that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source? Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like. Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you. Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position. Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient? Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point. Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is, "Thou shall not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: Um . . . Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: That's it. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing. Pater Emmanuel: And you think it's a principal point, the top point. Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come. Pater Emmanuel: I understand. *Prabhupāda: This is called ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya (CC Adi 5.176). If you . . . I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken—the chicken or what is called, cock, that? Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens. Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen? Haṁsadūta: Hen. Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that, "This mouthpiece is expensive, because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole—this side and that side—then business will go on. Pater Emmanuel: (German with devotees) In the Christian tradition . . . (German) Prabhupāda: (aside) Water. The first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God? Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says . . . the Christianity understands . . . *Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, "killing" and "murder." Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word "murder" instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly, openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first*-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking . . . Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill," the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. Pater Emmanuel: (German) No, I understand. Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Plants? Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same? Pater Emmanuel: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also not the same. Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable, because our Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty*-upahṛtam. German devotee: (reads translation in German) *Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants, "Give Me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa*-viddham : sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine. But you cannot drink urine. So the injunction is, tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). One who is very powerful . . . just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight, the commander-in-chief says: "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam ." So we are not sinful. Pater Emmanuel: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Heh? Pater Emmanuel: Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom, in the nature's way . . . just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . the perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam . (aside) Find out. (break) . . . killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting "Christ" or "Kṛṣṇa," the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant "Kṛṣṇa," you chant "Christ" or "Christo." Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 2). He says that God has got many, multi names. Any one of them you chant, because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designatedless—if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name—then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu," "Here is Muslim," "Here is Christian," "Here is white," "Here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization, or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads, just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting . . . you are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue; we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish; no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no illicit sex; and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo," or "Christo, Christo." Is there any objection? Pater Emmanuel: No. Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up . . . Pater Emmanuel: On my part, but I . . . *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty*-four hours. (priest laughs) Actually, this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen, hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousand churches, but they are not going on. So this experience . . . in Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian priest in Boston, he issued one leaflet that, "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was, "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?" Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?" Pater Emmanuel: What was your answer to this? Prabhupāda: Answer? What the answer? Umāpati: Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German. Prabhupāda: No, no. The answer I gave, you do not remember? Umāpati: "Because they are intelligent." Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes? German guest: (German) German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence, but it is a question of humility. Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement? Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth." Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road if they see me, they immediately fall down flat, never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said: Yasya . . . "Anyone who has got unflinching faith in God and His representative, the spiritual master, to him only, the purport of the scriptures become revealed." Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others. Pater Emmanuel: Exercise upon others. Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect. Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena (CC Adi 17.31). You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others. Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart. Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice. Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this . . . Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya . (priest leaves) (break) German guest: (German) *German devotee: (translating) "Where is it written in Bhagavad*-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā ?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (aside) Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. German guest: I will read at home. You can tell me the . . . (German) Devotee: What is the spelling? *Prabhupāda: dharma , d*-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. (BG 7.11) German devotee: Yes, Seventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end) Arrival -- June 25, 1974, Melbourne (Video - 01:55): Reporter: (break) . . . special servant of God. Prabhupāda: I'm always servant of God, it is for you to recognize, that's all. I'm always servant of God, but it is for you to recognize. Reporter: Have you any idea how much money the sect makes every year? Prabhupāda: We can spend all the money of the world. Devotees: (laughter) Haribol! Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, you do not give us the money. Devotees: (laughter) Haribol! Reporter: What . . . how do you spend, your Grace?. Prabhupāda: We are spending at least, at the present moment, eight hundred thousand dollars per month. Reporter: On what, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: On this propaganda, all over the world. And we are selling our books, not less than forty thousand dollars per month. Reporter: Do you like to work? Prabhupāda: Yes. What's that? Madhudviṣa: She wants to know if we like to work. *Prabhupāda: We are working, more than you—twenty*-four hours in the old age I am traveling all over the world. Devotee: Haribol! Reporter: But don’t you get a lot of your money from begging? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all you see. Working—you cannot work more than us, because I am an old man, seventy*-nine years old, and I am traveling always, all over the world, twice, thrice in a year. You cannot work so much, at least. Devotees: Haribol! Prabhupāda. Madhudviṣa: Just one more question please. Yes. Reporter (4): Your Grace, your religion is a very ascetic one. Will you be living ascetically in Melbourne? We’re told you’ll be taken away in a Rolls Royce. Prabhupāda: Our religion does not say asceticism. Our religion teaches to love God. You can love God in this dress. There is no harm. *Reporter (4): But it is a self*-denying religion, isn’t it?” *Prabhupāda: It is not self*-denying. We are using everything, why self-denying? We simply use whatever absolutely necessary, that’s all. Reporter: But how do you justify trappings like a Rolls Royce and a very expensive house to live in? Prabhupāda: No, we don't want Rolls Royce, we can walk. But if you offer Rolls Royce, I have no objection. Reporter: Wouldn’t it be better that you were traveling in a lot smaller car, less pretentious? Prabhupāda: Why, why? If you give me a Rolls Royce to travel, why shall I refuse it? It is my favor upon you, I accept this. Reporter: Your Grace, would you tell us briefly how you founded the Hare Krishna in America. Prabhupāda: Well, at least whole world is now chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Wherever you go they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne (Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots' Church) Reverend Powell: Your people have a serenity that many Western people don't have. What . . . what is the secret of serenity? And is it . . . I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such. Prabhupāda: Surrender is not material. Satsvarūpa: Serenity . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness? Prabhupāda: Communist? Satsvarūpa: The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from? Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. Reverend Powell: From what? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one . . . Reverend Powell: Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā . These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God," no. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they . . . one of the qualification is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty*-five qualifications of a devotee. *Reverend Powell: Twenty*-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: What are some of the others? Prabhupāda: (aside) Have you got the list? *Satsvarūpa: Friendly . . . uh, it's in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Right here, Teachings of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: And you, obviously, would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What . . .? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? Prabhupāda: No, it is practical. What is it? Satsvarūpa: (reading) It says: "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not . . ." Prabhupāda: First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then? Satsvarūpa: "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert. And he is silent." *Reverend Powell: Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia. I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Collins Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty*-one medical men on . . . and women, mainly men, on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing? Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees . . . we are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see? Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors. But now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works at the physical level, and the psychiatrist works at the emotional, mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus . . . Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. Reverend Powell: I'm sorry, I don't quite follow that. Satsvarūpa: He said the real disease is the material condition, in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reverend Powell: Umm . . . yes, I see. On the point of . . . in reading this very interesting magazine, and this . . . *Prabhupāda: (aside) You find out this verse of Bhagavad*-gītā . Reverend Powell: There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and with beans in particular, there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were prayed for . . . *Prabhupāda: Hmm. (aside) Find out, jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental and fruitive activities." Reverend Powell: What does devotional service mean in that context? Prabhupāda: Purport? Satsvarūpa: Purport: "Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi : I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman, spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities." Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And . . . Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service. Reverend Powell: Always. Prabhupāda: Always. Then they'll be free from birth, death, old age and disease. Yes. Reverend Powell: And . . . were the papers correct in reporting you as . . . well, they reported opposite things that . . . but you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is . . . death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form? Is that it? Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as the . . . everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Reverend Powell: Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what was said here in the . . . referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage. Prabhupāda: Only the sex allowed only for begetting nice children. Reverend Powell: Yes. You don't feel that . . . Prabhupāda: And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex. Reverend Powell: And that is out. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Reverend Powell: What is your attitude to Jesus? Prabhupāda: I have already explained in the meeting. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's . . . Reverend Powell: Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He . . . Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo, or Kristo, or Kṛṣṇa. Reverend Powell: Yes? Hmm. Another thing: We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement, and we really congratulate you, sir, (Prabhupāda chuckles) on the very fine work that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved, because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain . . . I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on, that there are many thousands . . . Prabhupāda: In Africa, in China, in Japan. Everywhere. Reverend Powell: And now, how do you explain this? Why are people . . .? Why are . . .? Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation. Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they . . . you have all ages? Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive. Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, I see. And I was interested . . . I take it that you feel—forgive me if I'm not using the right expression—but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system. Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brahmin , the śūdras and so on, per se. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to . . . (aside) Find out the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay? Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago. I um . . . Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta? Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they pass through Calcutta or Bombay, like that. Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We come by air. Was there some reference? Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Translation: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non*-doer, being unchangeable." Prabhupāda: Read the purport. Satsvarūpa: "The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brāhmaṇas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kṣatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaiśyas , are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the śūdras , or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature." *"In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Kṛṣṇa does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above*-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, is above even the brāhmaṇas , because a brāhmaṇa by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but only a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brāhmaṇa and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, becomes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaiṣṇava." "Kṛṣṇa consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa, namely Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, etc. However, as Kṛṣṇa is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species." Reverend Powell: Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some five and some ten. And . . . Prabhupāda: (aside) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (sounds of wrapping paper) You can close the door. Devotee: Close the door. Prabhupāda: So all our disciples, they are young men. Reverend Powell: Yes, I noticed. Prabhupāda: Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time. Reverend Powell: (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, some were given a few, and some were . . . Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then . . . Reverend Powell: What I'd like to follow through . . . I'd like to hear this, but . . . Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brahmin category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here. Reverend Powell: And this . . . Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brahmin . Symptoms. Satsvarūpa: *"Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work." *Prabhupāda: This is first*-quality man. Reverend Powell: Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just . . . *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. When . . . when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first*-class man. Reverend Powell: Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of Communism, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth—everything belongs to God—that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area . . . just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. "National" means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the Communist or capitalist, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then, they said: "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage—the same wage is paid to all, however long they work, because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from our point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier . . . *Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā , it is not limited within Christian or Communist or capitalist. Reverend Powell: No. *Prabhupāda: No. The principle . . . wherever there are these talented person, he is to be considered as first*-class man. He does not say that, "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christian . . ." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa , these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest, because I am making them brahmin . My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brahmin . So the Indian, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion because he's accepting brahmin from outside." So actually they're also not aware . . . creation of God . . . here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia—it is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brahmin . That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says: "Thou shall not kill." This is applicable to every man, not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, even the Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community? Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area. Reverend Powell: Right. Prabhupāda: That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Christ says that, "Thou should be . . . one should be meek and humble to go to back to home, back to . . ." Eh? It is not? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this is for everyone. Reverend Powell: Yes. Blessed are the meek. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone. Reverend Powell: Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired; you've got a big day tomorrow. I mustn't keep you, if I may. Prabhupāda: Just here, please wait. Little, take little. (aside) Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You had been today there today in meeting? Guest: Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice . . . Prabhupāda: You were all present? Guest: Yes. Reverend Powell: You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you? Devotee: Yes. Reverend Powell: You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it, tomorrow? I'll see something of it. Prabhupāda: These flowers are very nice. They are called . . .? Devotee: Daffodil? Prabhupāda: Daffodils. Oh. Reverend Powell: No, jonquils, aren't they? Devotee: Jonquils. Prabhupāda: Very . . . just see how God's artistic brain. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere, God, nothing but God. Reverend Powell: Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything you see God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God. Satsvarūpa: Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: You can, you can pick up. Reverend Powell: Made out of what? Satsvarūpa: Mostly out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: Milk preparation. Reverend Powell: Thank you. And, um . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, you can eat. Reverend Powell: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Thank you. (eats) Satsvarūpa: Very juicy. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Very juicy. Hmm. (laughs) Prabhupāda: All of them, give each one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. (to guests) Do you like? Guest: Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Reverend Powell: Something quite different. Hmm. Devotee: Here, perhaps you can use this. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You . . . you . . . you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all? Prabhupāda: No. Reverend Powell: Why not eggs? Because . . . Prabhupāda: We are not even vegetarian. Reverend Powell: You're not. *Prabhupāda: No. We are negative of vegetarian and non*-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda . Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian nor non-vegetarian, because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have appointment. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne Prabhupāda: . . . dollar, three quarter. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in your country . . . Satsvarūpa: That would cost around fifteen dollars or something. Prabhupāda: Just see. Still, India, I am surprised. Devotee: It's good quality as well. *Prabhupāda: Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, utmost three rupees. Now the things have increased price. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the USA the binding cost is very, very . . . just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad*-gītā , hardbound, they charge ten dollar, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cent, and in America they charge six dollars. Hmm. So all the fathers clapped for long. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: They appreciated. Devotee: Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Devotee: He appreciated that very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena . Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . amāninā mānadena. For . . . in one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for person. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect to even an ant. Therefore that St. Francis . . . Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God—anyway, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood . . . actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind—that the grain of rice is not man*-made; it is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy, so God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything . . . therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya ( BG 7.8). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda . . . ānandamaya. That God is ānanda . So there is the sample of ānanda . *So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ? What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only . . . every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ . . . we pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and every thing. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇava is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa : This is the statement of Lord Śiva. "Worship of God, Viṣṇu, is the highest, topmost method of worship. And greater than the topmost worship is to worship Viṣṇu's paraphernalia. Viṣṇu's devotee, Viṣṇu's temple, Viṣṇu's dear . . ." Just like we worship tulasī . Why? Because it is very dear to Viṣṇu. Tadīyānām . Viṣṇu likes, Kṛṣṇa likes. When, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26), the tulasī flower, leaf is offered to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes very pleased. Therefore we love tulasī , because He likes. In common word they say: "If you love me, love my dog." I have seen people do that. One man is going with his dog. His friends meet, and if the friends pats the dog, the man becomes pleased. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately: "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ . What is the meaning? Satsvarūpa: "By the mercy of the spiritual master one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased, "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified, but because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone. Satsvarūpa: But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee, even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if . . . *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette—comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect, "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that, "He's my enemy." That . . . the etiquette according to Vedic civilization, gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto*-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum . . . that was . . . just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with . . ." (break) Unless one of the kings die . . . (break) (break) . . . a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have . . . where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha . (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha . Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas , they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa says: "It is I am"—they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say: "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha . Therefore it is said . . . the mūḍha cannot explain all . . . and at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future, the future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history . . .? In the history the future is past. This is common sense. *So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum, that future will never come. And they still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come, and still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha . This is the explanation of mūḍha . It is just like somebody offered you a post*-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say: "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect. Devotee: In Australia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That Attorney, in the . . . Attorney*-General of the Federal Government. You saw that? Satsvarūpa: I didn't see the paper. Prabhupāda: They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much. Devotee: I think so, yes. Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly . . . *Satsvarūpa: At seven*-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high ranking in the Church. Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten after six. Quarter after six. (end) Garden Conversation -- July 0, 1974, New Vrindaban, USA (Video - 00:40): Guest: I don't think we have to worry about your disciples being in the criminal courts now do we? We don't have to worry about that. You have fine followers here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: This community, fine community. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Good people. (break) Prabhupāda: A magistrate or a lawyer is already graduate. (break) If he is a lawyer it is to be understood that he has passed his graduate examination. Similarly, if one is vaiṣṇava it is to be understood that he has already become a brahmin . Is it clear? Why we offer you the sacred thread? That means there is brahminical standard. Unless one is brahmin he cannot become vaiṣṇava . Just like unless one is graduate, he cannot become lawyer. So as a lawyer means he is already a graduate of the university, similarly a vaiṣṇava means he is already a brahmin . Devotee: So therefore the vaiṣṇavas , they're all, they should have no contamination of passion and ignorance, therefore . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: They shall be, they shall be on the platform of . . . Prabhupāda: Yes, vaiṣṇava means, bhakti means, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa ( SB 11.2.42), bhakti means realization of God consciousness. And the symptom of God consciousness is that he is averse to all material activities. He has no interest. Devotee: So then the brāhmaṇa has no interest in being, excuse me, the vaiṣṇava has no interest in being a brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra , but he takes some specific occupation . . . *Prabhupāda: That is, he is actually on the topmost position. He has no interest. But so long he is not so perfect, he has interest. Therefore that interest should be corroborated, or, what is called . . . adjusted according to the brahminical, kṣatriya . . . (break) . . . because, in that time, the people are so rotten, that they could not understand what is God. Therefore he took up that "First of all let them become sinless. Then one day will come, he will understand what is God. Lord Christ also said: "Thou shall not kill." Now, the people at that time are killers. Otherwise why does he say: "Thou shall not kill." Why this first commandment? Because full of killers. Not very good society. If in a society constantly there is killing, murder, is that very good society? So therefore he first of all asked not to kill, first of all let them become sinless, then they will understand what is God. Here is, Bhagavad*-gita confirms: yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ (BG 7.28). One who has become completely sinless. So God consciousness is meant for the person who is sinless. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is cheating. A God-conscious person means he has no sin. He cannot be within the jurisdiction of sinful activities. That is God consciousness. You cannot become God conscious at the same time sinful. That is not possible. So everyone can understand whether I am actually God conscious or not by judging his own activities. There is no need of asking for external certificate. Whether I am fixed up on these principles: no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling, no intox . . . if one is sincere he can judge himself whether I am actually on the platform or not. Just like you are hungry, if you have eaten something then you can feel strength, satisfaction. There is no need of external certificate. Similarly, God consciousness means whether you are freed from all sinful activities. Then you'll become. A God conscious person will not be inclined to any sinful activity. (break) (end) Conversation -- July 1, 1974, Melbourne Prabhupāda: That is sense. Otherwise nonsense (laughs), that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said? Satsvarūpa: "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: This is sense. (pause) Bhūrijana: Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled. Prabhupāda: Then unfortunate. Bhūrijana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Continue. (laughter) Who can check? Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense, though, exactly how far your instructions are, because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly . . . Prabhupāda: You are old student. Bhūrijana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like . . . Bhūrijana: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say . . . (pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then is no advance. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhim sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatih (BG 16.23). This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man. No. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect. (aside) Find out this verse. As soon as the disciplic succession is missing, then everything is lost. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa , this word is used. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not today. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now last night, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. *Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam (Padma Purāṇa): "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is kṛṣṇa-kathā , Kṛṣṇa's. sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā : "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good; *it is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, it is . . . there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇavism. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas , Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says: "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . ." He cannot chant. That is a show*-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no. Sanātana Gosvāmī, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than . . . in other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many other, they could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ : "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is . . . there are so many . . . such a big instruction book. It is not that whimsical. But still, we recommend that, "Go on chanting." This will help you, anyone. That is also good. It is exactly like that if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time; only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes, you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied, "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood would dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied—"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"—that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. It require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. (break) You must get the flame, otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "phat, phat, phat" As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it, let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man . . . he was a yogī . So he approached—it is not story; *it is fact—approached one big man that . . . as people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogī , "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can, in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga ." So, "How long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night, or as long as you . . ." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, for one night, then I shall give you such*-and-such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said: "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not . . . either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no, sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa-pradīpa ? During Kārttika month they . . . this is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said: "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) (chuckles) That lamp was three miles away, and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that, "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." (aside) Hmm. What is that? Some presentation? Amogha: Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. (offers obeisances) Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that, "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not . . .?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw, "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense?" "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply, so that man was paid. (laughter) So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire, and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ . . . (BG 16.23). (aside) Hmm. So what are these things? Amogha: I noticed this morning while . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) (laughing) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head, and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice. Amogha: This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney—a scarf for you to wear in the cold. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. Amogha: And I also brought one from me. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Amogha: And some mangoes . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, that is good. Amogha: . . . from Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are really difficult to get. Prabhupāda: Mangoes, very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not? Amogha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya*-ca . . . two fruits. One fruit is the Neem tree fruit. You have seen Neem tree? In not your country. Neem tree you have seen in India, and their fruits . . . Bhūrijana: A little bitter. Prabhupāda: Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow, they eat that Neem tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this Neem tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden—there is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere, and the crows . . . you have seen it? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They enjoy that. Tad*-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham . (aside) Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . Satsvarūpa: Part One? *Prabhupāda: Na tad*-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ (SB 1.5.10). Jagattāriṇī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . no understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā , you will find the first beginning of teaching— dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . Find out. Satsvarūpa: *"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education, because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. (to Bhūrijana) She has also gone, your wife? Bhūrijana: No, she will come back. Prabhupāda: That is, we . . . our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram (BG 2.13). Dehina , not the deha; dehi . (break) We are not working on deha. Deha means body, and dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the defect. Therefore it takes very, very long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body . . ." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education. They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education? Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions, or nowadays meditation, like that. *Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so*-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close it. It is closed? Satsvarūpa: Close the blind? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed. Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break) Satsvarūpa: . . . have to strain the juice from this mango? Prabhupāda: And did you do it? Satsvarūpa: No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. (break) *Prabhupāda: . . . human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice—first*-quality rice, second-quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third-quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine bāsmatī . I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, " Babu . . ." babu means master—"this rice is not suitable for us." That fine bāsmatī rice, he did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have you seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes, "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. (break) . . . the big animals, the living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Cāru: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for. *Prabhupāda: No. Classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat kṛṣṇa*-prasādam ." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam ," life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). At that stage, samatā , equality, when one is brahma-bhūta , spiritualized. Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? Madhudviṣa: Dipaka? Prabhupāda: No, he has gone. Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him. Prabhupāda: All right. No, no. Madhudviṣa: I can send for him. It's all right. Prabhupāda: No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten to eight. (end) Conversation -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne (Conversation with Scientists) Madhudviṣa: Dr. Harrap. Dr. Harrap: How do you do? Dr. Muncey: And Dr. Muncey. Madhudvisa: Dr. Muncey. Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse . . . (aside) You have got first part? Madhudviṣa: First part. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā . Satsvarūpa: Idam ? *Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ . (devotees search for verse) Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hmm. Read. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas* , sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Satsvarūpa: "Human intellect is developed for advancement in learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately, persons who are enamoured by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection, or self-realization, depends on Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu-māyā means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by the viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies, because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them." "When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead, His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all non different from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous topics, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord, and by doing so they have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification." *"Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavour to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful, and all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All so-called knowledge not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all other similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana , or glorification of the Lord." Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness: everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection. Dr. Muncey: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world, but we don't seem to have got their life qualities good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this. Dr. Harrap: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They can record it? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Dr. Harrap: This stand's got a complicated contraption here. It makes very little contact . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the Existence of the Supreme Scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this. Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19) "When we think calmly and carefully about this wonderful universe, we can see that everything is working under the control of a supreme brain. The arrangements in nature are perfectly ordered. Things would be at random without the careful planning of a scientific and engineering brain. It is a common understanding that there is a cause behind each action. A machine cannot run without an operator. Modern scientists are very proud of automation, but there is a scientific brain behind automation also. Even Albert Einstein agreed that there is a perfect brain behind all the natural physical laws. When we talk about 'brain' and 'operator,' these terms imply a person. They cannot be impersonal. One may inquire who this person is. He is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist and supreme engineer, under whose kind will the whole cosmos is working. Śrī Kṛṣṇa says: 'The whole cosmic order is under Me. By My will it is manifested again and again, and by My will it is annihilated at the end.' " (BG 9.8) *"Now let us look a few samples from the Lord's creation, and upon contemplating these exemplary aspects, one should develop a better understanding and appreciation of the existence of the most powerful brain, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The sun that we see daily is the nearest star. It is one hundred earth diameters across and is ninety*-three million miles away from the earth. Every day the sun supplies the solar system with a tremendous amount of heat, light and energy. A quote, 'The very tiny fraction of the sun's energy that falls on the earth—estimated at about five parts in a hundred million million—is about 100,000 times greater than all the energy used in the world's industries. The total energy the sun emits in a single second would be sufficient to keep a 1 kilowatt electric fire burning for 10,000 million million years. Put in a different way, the energy the sun emits in one second is greater than the whole amount of energy the human species has consumed throughout its entire history, a quote from Fred Hoyle astronomy, 'Yet it is only one of the countless number of stars floating in the sky in every direction. With the material scientific brain, the thermal, electrical and nuclear powerhouses have been made. These can supply heat, light and energy to a small, limited extent, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is supplying the whole planet with an unlimited source of energy just from one sun. Kṛṣṇa says: 'The splendour of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of this whole world, comes from Me. And the splendour of the moon and the splendour of fire are also from Me.' (BG 15.12) The planets are revolving in a systematic path around the sun. Even within the smallest atom, the electrons and the protons are orbiting around the nucleus in a perfect manner." *"Thus, from the submicroscopic realm of the atom to the expanding reaches of the galactic objects, this material universe is running like intricate, well*-oiled clockwork according to great natural physical laws and principles. Scientists have gained great acclaim for making a few spaceships, whereas Kṛṣṇa effortlessly produces gigantic spaceships, such as planets and stars, which are perfectly equipped and maintained. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, gām āviśya ca bhūtāni dhārayāmy aham ojāsa : 'I enter into each planet, and by My energy they stay in orbit.' (BG 15.13) The laws made by the supreme brain always remain perfect; they are never violated. We never see the sun rising in the west and setting in the east. The colourful rainbow that we observe when the sun is shining during a shower is only visible when the sun is behind the observer, due to the laws of refraction. Also, each year the seasons change quite periodically, producing symptoms unique to each season." "Now let us look into some aspects of the Lord's creation at the molecular level. Chemists find that the different colours in flowers are due to chemicals called anthocyanins, and the different aromas are mostly due to chemicals called terpenes and terpenoid compounds. The molecular frameworks for these compounds range from very simple structures to very complex networks. Camphor, for example, is a terpenoid compound, and the characteristic odour of lemons is due to the molecule called limonene, which is one of the simple terpenes. Similarly, the characteristic colours in carrots and tomatoes are due to molecules called carotenoids, which are higher forms of terpenes. The molecular framework for each definite colour or aroma is wonderfully unique. A little change in position of a few atoms in the molecule, a little variation in the geometry of the molecule or a slight change in the size of the molecule can cause a colour to change from orange to red, a mild, pleasing aroma to become repellent and pungent, and a flavor to change from sweet to bitter." "On one extreme we find the smallest molecule, the hydrogen molecule, which contains only two atoms of hydrogen. On the other extreme we find giant molecules such as the proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA), the building blocks of all living material bodies, which contain innumerable atoms made for a definite function. Similarly, the crystalline pattern of each different molecule is unique. The geometrical shape for sodium chloride (common salt), for example, is cubical. Charcoal, graphite and diamonds are all derived from the same element, carbon, and yet the shining and transparent diamond is extremely hard, whereas graphite is soft, black and opaque. This is due to the difference in the crystalline forms of these molecules. In the crystal lattice of the diamond, each carbon atom is tetrahedrally surrounded by four other carbon atoms at a distance of 1.54 angstroms (one angstrom = 10-8sq cm) In graphite, by contrast, the three bonds of each carbon atom are distorted so as to lie in the same plane, the fourth bond being directed perpendicularly to this plane to link with a carbon atom of the neighbouring layer." *"In this way we can cite innumerable examples of molecular networks so fantastically and delicately arranged that chemists cannot but wonder about the most expert hand and brain who is making all these wonderfully artistic arrangements in His laboratory. Indeed, the intelligence and ability of the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are inconceivable ( acintya ). There is no scientist who can deny it. How, then, can any chemist abstain from appreciating the wonderful works of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa? In Bhagavad*-gītā we find: 'One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun and, being transcendental, is beyond this material nature.' " (BG 8.9) *"At best, scientists can only try to imitate the wonderful artistic works of the Supreme Lord. They cannot even do this properly, and most of their attempts lead to failure and disappointment. Even when they are partly successful, it is only with the greatest difficulty. For example, Professor R. B. Woodward of Harvard, a Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry (1965) and Professor A. Eschenmoser of Zurich took eleven years to synthesize the vitamin B12 molecule. Altogether, ninety*-nine scientists from nineteen different countries were involved just to accomplish this one small task. Yet Kṛṣṇa is making all these complex molecules at will." "Interestingly enough, when scientists fail again and again in their attempts to make something, they consciously or unconsciously pray to God for help. Does this not indicate the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and the natural subordinate position of all other living entities? A crude example is the explosion that occurred inside the Apollo 13 spacecraft during its attempt to land on the moon on April 11, 1970. The Apollo capsule was made by hundreds of scientific and technological brains and cost millions of dollars. No one could predict that there would be an explosion. When it happened, however, and the lives of the three astronauts were in danger, those involved in the mission requested all the people on earth to pray to God for the safe return of the astronauts. Such is the situation. At times of danger, people tend to remember God, although at other times they forget Him." "Now, let us look into some very simple and graphic examples of the artistry of the Lord's creation. We see that among the lower forms of living entities, social organization is very smoothly maintained. For example, in a bee colony the queen bee is nicely taken care of by the drones (male bees), while the workers collect nectar from flowers all day long. It is quite amazing to consider how the bees, with their tiny bodies, can collect such a great amount of honey for themselves as well as for other living entities. In this way, the colony is maintained with beautiful order. Similarly, the loving relationship between a mother and her baby is quite clearly visible even in very small forms of living entities. During the monsoon season in tropical countries, when there are torrents of rain, the small ants run to find shelter, carrying their eggs on their heads. The spider makes its wonderful webs with great architectural skill to serve as a shelter as well as to catch its prey for survival. Silkworms spin hundreds of yards of fine threads to form cocoons for their shelter during the pupa stage. Inside a tiny seed, smaller than the size of a mustard seed, the whole potency of a big banyan tree is present. In this way, we can see the wonderful arrangements of the Supreme Lord, who is creating, maintaining and guiding all living entities, small or big. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being—moving or unmoving—that can exist without Me.' " (BG 10.39) Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it? Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his . . . Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57) "About the Author. Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa Brahmacārī was born in a Vaiṣṇava (devoted) family in Manipur, India, on February 25, 1941. His father, Jogendra Singh, died when he was a mere child. In 1961 he earned his B.S. degree, with highest honours, in Chemistry from Gauhati University, and he earned his master's degree in Chemical Engineering and Chemical Technology with similar honours from Calcutta University in 1964. He was a recipient of a Research Fellowship from the University Grants Commission. "Allured by material advancement, he came to the United States of America and joined the Department of Chemistry, Canisius College, Buffalo, New York, in 1967 and obtained an M.S. degree in Chemistry in 1969. Then he joined the Department of Chemistry, University of California, Irvine, where he is finishing his Ph.D. in Physical Organic Chemistry." Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background. Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist? Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the . . . Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong to your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and . . . Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centres where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the . . . most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centres are working in that fashion. We have a school for children, where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America. Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centres are, where some of them are? Madhudviṣa: The centres are all over the world. We have centres in America and centres . . . Prabhupāda: We have got forty centres in America. Dr. Harrap: Forty. Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes. Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests. *Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language, but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam . This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. *Dr. Muncey: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern*-day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Harrap: Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā , yes. Dr. Muncey: We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholesterol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you? Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful. Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter . . . Dr. Muncey: The milkfat and . . . Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat. Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? (guests laugh) How it is harmful? If it is harmful, why you are giving milk to the child? *Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two percent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different to the cow for the milk that we get from the non*-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants. Prabhupāda: But I think there is a book, Miracles of Milk, written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products. Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so . . . has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholesterol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the polyten level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholesterol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to . . . among many in the medical profession, to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats. Prabhupāda: (aside) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter? Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way, by a special feeding techniques to the cows. *Prabhupāda: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk, because you'll find in this book that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya . Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk, is important, not other animal's milk. Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk? Prabhupāda: Human milk is natural. Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk. Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholesterol. (laughter) Cholesterol is no problem for you. Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak one of our . . . yes, you know him? One of our senior staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk. *Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa says that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (aside) Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa book? Cāru: *Translation: "Farming, cattle*-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas , and for the śūdras there is labour and service to others . . ." Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa . . . we are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture. Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and saturated . . . Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely. Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity. Dr. Harrap: Well, Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Harrap: you should . . . the advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, then you should increase the ratio between the polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana, I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex. *Prabhupāda: No, practically also you see, formerly big, big saintly person, they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the . . . he has written Mahābhārata , one hundred thousand verses, and similarly, this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk, and fruits. Yes. Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncey has taken the lead in C.S.I.R.O. (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation) in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat. Dr. Muncey: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted—the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia, where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past. Madhudviṣa: He wants . . . he would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with, as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world, and what Australia can, can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science and as well as general living. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, so far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries . . . the population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the overpopulated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā we have the statement . . . (aside) Find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni . (aside) Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni . Cāru: Translation: "All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña , sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties." Prabhupāda: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain, both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps ploughing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors . . . what is called? Tractor? Madhudviṣa: Cultivators. Prabhupāda: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation, and the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labour, and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop. Dr. Muncey: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area couldn't . . . the area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand, I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.I.R.O. is working towards. *Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain, because the terrain is just not suited to the grain*-growing. Prabhupāda: Hmm. The land is not suitable? *Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts or semi*-deserts. And the gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural . . . the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us . . . you see, there's people that don't have the essentials, and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking, and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. Dr. Harrap: I think . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . point, these are all misconception, because I am not this body; I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit . . . they are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, "Hindu," "Muslim," "Christian," "white," "black." Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they're dividing, this designation. So this knowledge, that so long the spirit soul is there in the body it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body? Dr. Muncey: Yes, I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, is material and dead, in the terms we use, and the spirit moves on, but, and I accept from that, that at that stage one has nothing to . . . one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity, and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the, the important factor . . . just like our this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination there is an active principle, which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect. Dr. Muncey: I think I disagree with that. Dr. Harrap: I'm, I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would take a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community. Prabhupāda: That I admit. That I admit. Yes. Dr. Harrap: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Harrap: Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now? Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but you still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this? Dr. Harrap: They used to use sundial. Yes, yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch. Dr. Harrap: I agree. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screwdriving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Dr. Harrap: It, it . . . Prabhupāda: Where is that science? That is my proposition. Dr. Harrap: It, it wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Harrap: that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency . . . Prabhupāda: Creative faculty . . . therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain? Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the . . . that I think that I . . . Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? This is the must . . . as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist, but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist. Dr. Muncey: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment; but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has there a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present. Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.I.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. (aside) So you, you, can you, can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweetball? Satsvarūpa: Where are they? I could not find them just now. Prabhupāda: You go and find out. *Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that . . . what we call a gouda cheese, which comes from originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries, and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. That seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese*-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more, more and more popular in these countries. Prabhupāda: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya . People . . . a class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food. Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat*-eaters, they can eat other, non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya . Does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "Elephant- rakṣya ." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. Dr. Harrap: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So therefore it is recommended, go*-rakṣya . It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other, non-important animals, but don't kill animal, er, cow. *And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she's mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā , real mother. Ādau mātā . Guru patnī , the wife of guru , the spiritual master. Ādau mātā , guru patnī, brāhmaṇī , the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are, who are brāhmaṇa , that is also mentioned there in the śāstra . So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī . . . in general the understanding is, any except your wife, all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu : "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya . You cannot, I mean evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over, "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." I in our Society, we get married. Your government has approved our Society that we can . . . so . . . Madhudviṣa: The government the, Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages. Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that? Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell . . . Guest (2): Yes, yes we, if we were alarmed, we wouldn't be here. Woman: And me too and . . . Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and . . . it is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasure house of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is a institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know the, what is the active principle of life. Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some . . . Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first. Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmin friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India? Prabhupāda: Yes I have, from the revealed scripture we can understand from . . . (aside) You have got the first part of *Bhāgavatam* ? Cāru: Yes, right here. Part One? Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra ? Satsvarūpa: That's not in that book. That's in Three, I think. Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear, nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra . So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptoms of nuclear weapon . . . (to devotees) Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho . That is . . . Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume. Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You say you have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said: "Yes, we have got enough stock." Madhudviṣa: We have them, but we do not have them here. Prabhupāda: No, that is not . . . here are people coming, gentlemen coming. Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are, what you are thinking about India, India's . . . Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Anyway, why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam . When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this." No. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). (aside) Find out this verse. Cāru: *"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa , a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog*-eater." *Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of that soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18) means a learned, advanced spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. Such-and-such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Cāru: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā . *Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). (aside) Find out this verse. Cāru: "The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature." Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural . . . material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body; next life I may get another body. That is explained— tathā dehāntara prāpti . We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, and then next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education? There is no science. But this is a fact. Guest (2): (to other guest) Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in on the . . . Guest (1): I think you've answered . . . Prabhupāda: Give them. Madhudviṣa: These are, these are preparation which is prepared from Australian milk. Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes. Guest (2): Oh, thank you. Madhudviṣa: Give a napkin. It's a little sweet . . . it's a sweet preparation called gulābjāmun . It is all prepared just from milk which has been boil made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee , cooking ghee , and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and is very palatable. It's called a gulābjāmun . It is a, a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires a great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely. Prabhupāda: This cheese as you, as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat. Madhudviṣa: Protein. Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein. Prabhupāda: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk. Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar . . . Madhudviṣa: Syrup. Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India? Madhudviṣa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Guest (2): You made it here. Madhudviṣa: Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science. Guest (2): Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take. Why you are not . . . it is very nice. Guest (2): You mean to eat it now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife. Prabhupāda: No, no, you take, you take it. You just . . . Guest (2): Oh that's a shame. Madhudviṣa: I can give you another. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you like, we shall give you more. Satsvarūpa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though. Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it. Prabhupāda: And if you send us cheese like this, we can send you many things. (laughter) Dr. Muncey: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family. Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but . . . (laughter) Dr. Muncey: It's very good. Prabhupāda: Shall I give you more? Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home? Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes. Dr. Muncey: Well, this has been most interesting. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Well public relations meant for dairy research yes. Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues, fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply, oh well if I disagree with you we'll just fight. It has to be fine brain tissues in order to say: "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we, and we say that not we, but according to the scripture—there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products—not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products—the consumption of milk products and the development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. You know, the vegetables, rice, everything . . . even if rice was boiled, milk was put on . . . ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical, you know, progress. Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee , clarified butter, was offered in the yajña . The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation. Guest (2): Well, thank you very much . . . Prabhupāda: Thank you very . . . (break) Madhudviṣa: . . . and they liked the sweet ball. Prabhupāda: Who has made? Madhudviṣa: One girl. (end) Interview -- July 4, 1974, Chicago Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter (1): There's a market? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Huh? Reporter (1): That because the United States is so materialistic, the message of . . . Viśākhā: Take one. *Reporter (1): . . . anti*-materialism is more easily accepted than in places where things are not so? Prabhupāda: That is also another cause, because they are not satisfied. Otherwise, why hippies are coming? (aside) Come. The hippies are dissatisfied with the method of modern materialistic way of life. Is it not? Therefore voluntarily . . . Reporter (1): Yes. They have given away their possessions and . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter (1): . . . they have, they have chosen to . . . Prabhupāda: Voluntarily they are giving up possessions. (someone enters) Sit down. Woman Reporter: Hello. Hi. Sri Govinda: There is a reporter from the Chicago Daily News. Prabhupāda: Ah. Viśākhā: Take two. Reporter (1): . . . Krsna consciousness people among the hippies, because they had already given up material possessions, and so they were prepared for . . .? Prabhupāda: No, that means that they want to have something new, but they are not accepting what is actually better. Some of them are accepting. But there is frustration, there is no doubt. Reporter (1): There is no doubt . . .? Prabhupāda: Frustration. Reporter (1): Frustration. Prabhupāda: Yes. This way of, materialistic way of life, like their fathers, grandfathers, they do not like. Is it not? Huh? Reporter (1): I think so. Devotee: Yes. (break) (laughter) Woman Reporter: In Los Angeles, do you live . . . do you live in richness? Do you have a car, and a chauffeur, and a . . . Prabhupāda: Why not? Woman Reporter: . . . a yacht? Prabhupāda: I am . . . I am the guru of the richest country. Why shall I not have car? Do you follow? Woman Reporter: No, I don’t. (laughter) Prabhupāda: If I am guru of the richest country, then why shall I not have a car? Woman Reporter: So you . . . you have one? Prabhupāda: I have many. In each center I have got at least one dozen cars. (laughter) Just now I am coming from Europe—Germany. They have got nineteen vans. Nineteen. They go interior villages. The Volkswagen? What is called? Devotees: Volkswagen Bus. Prabhupāda: Bus, bus. Devotees: Yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So our devotees, they are packed up in each bus, and they go interior, in the village. Similarly, in every center we have got. In Germany, in England, in Los Angeles, in New York. Here also? Devotee (1): Yes. Sri Govinda: There's nine vehicles here. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sri Govinda: Nine vehicles. Prabhupāda: Just see. Reporter (1): Nine vehicles in Chicago? Sri Govinda: Yes. Woman Reporter: Some spiritual leaders of, of various groups live in great richness, with a chauffeur, and, uh, uh, expensive cars and boats . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Reporter: What about you? Prabhupāda: That because I know you are envious, therefore I don’t sit here, I am sitting here. (laughter) You are very envious when a spiritual master is honored very nicely by his disciples. You become envious. What can be done? But that is the etiquette, that spiritual master is honored as good as God. But if you, you do not know, you become envious, "Why this man is sitting in this position, in this gorgeous way. Why he . . .?" What can be done? Woman Reporter: ' Are you honored as good as God? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda is the most exalted person walking on the earth. So he must be honored in the highest fashion. Prabhupāda: No. That is the injunction, yasya prasādād dharitvena . What is that verse? "A spiritual master should be honored as good as God." That is the injunction of the scripture. And people who are aware of this thing, they honor. (break) Reporter (1): But why did you not come to the United States until you were . . . 'til 1965? Why didn’t you come sooner? Or to England? Prabhupāda: That's a great, hmm, mystery. I was not thinking myself that, "I am fit now to go there." Reporter (1): And if you were not . . . Prabhupāda: I was thinking that, "At present, I am not fit." And besides that, I was family man at that time. I could not get the opportunity. So after renouncing the family life—then. I renounced family life in 1954. Woman Reporter: 1954? Prabhupāda: Yes. And I took sannyāsa in 1959. And then I came to your country in 1956. Reporter (1): What did you do in 1959? Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa . Renouncing, officially renouncing. Officially renouncing family life. Woman Reporter: In ’59? Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman Reporter: What happened to your wife? Prabhupāda: Oh, I leave under the, her children, that's all. Devotee (1): The eldest son takes care of the wife, the mother. A very nice system. (end) Conversation -- July 8, 1974, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: . . . Gopala. Gurukṛpā: Gopala? He left. Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukṛpā: He was in māyā for a long time. He stole $6000 also. Devotee (2): No, he had twenty times that. Gurukṛpā: He must have gotten more. That's all I know. He took from the bank. Devotee (2): He could have got the whole thing, right? Gurukṛpā: He could have, but he couldn't, because it was in yen; he couldn't trade it in. But I had American money hidden for . . . because we are foreigners, we must keep some American money, and he knew where it was, and he took $4000 of that. Plus I don't know how much more he took—at least $6000 though—and he left his tridaṇḍi . He was supposed to go to Korea and file for missionary visas, and I looked in his drawer in his files, and he had not gone. But he had been away, and he came back and said that he went. So I took over all the money and everything, took over all the accounts, but I did not trust him because he was not chanting properly, and he was not Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then he snuck away. Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty, out of sight. Devotee (2): Hm. Gurukṛpā: I think it had been planned, though, for some time. It was very planned. Prabhupāda: Where he is now? Gurukṛpā: I don't know. He is a criminal. He has taken so much money. He has not left any message. Devotee (2): He sent back the bank book, right? Gurukṛpā: Yes. Devotee (2): He took the bank book with all . . . that had all money in it, with all this money. Gurukṛpā: He went to the bank to pay the rent, and he withdrew . . . he paid the rent and withdrew some for himself, and he left. Prabhupāda: Only his signature? Gurukṛpā: Only. Because he is the only one who has proper visa, he has business visa. That was the problem. Prabhupāda: So what news about Bhanu? Gurukṛpā: He is doing nice. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Gurukṛpā: But he is very reluctant to become the president. He does not like the business. Prabhupāda: No, that is good. He thinks himself, and feels why should he take this money? Gurukṛpā: He is very intelligent, though. Prabhupāda: Very intelligent, good devotee. But he is doing any translation work? Gurukṛpā: No. Devotee (2): He is not able to translate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): Because he has only learned Japanese since he went to Japan. He did not know it previously. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Gurukṛpā: He has translated the whole Bhagavad*-gītā , but it just sits there. They say it is not well enough translated, the Japanese people. Devotee (2): It will not be accepted. Prabhupāda: But he was translating? Devotee (2): He has been working on *Śrī Īśopaniṣad* , but not very quickly. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I just met one boy here, a boy from Fukushima, Japan. Devotee (2): Who? Devotee (3): He speaks very little English, and he has shaven head and śikhā . And I just preached with him, and he is going to go back to Tokyo, and his visa is expiring in a week or two, and he says he wants to go back and help to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: He has formally joined that temple? Devotee (3): No. He is very intelligent boy. He speaks Spanish—a little bit of Spanish—Chinese, English—a little bit of English—and he is fluent, of course, because he is born in Japan. Devotee (4): That's what . . . that's what we need. Devotee (3): He came in contact with our movement in Los Angeles, and he just asked me the question, when he was a young boy in Fukushima he used to go to the Buddhist temples, and they play the drums. And he wanted to know why now, after so many years, he saw our saṅkīrtana party in Los Angeles, and he was very much attracted, so much so that he went with them to the temple and shaved his head. So I told him it was natural for him; that is why it is our position to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So he has a desire to return back to Japan and help with translating and study, and he has a good mind. His name is Fuji. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (3): Young. He is very nice. Prabhupāda: So what about Book Trust? I want to see that according to the Trust, desire, there is fifty percent for building . . . (indistinct) . . . temples, and fifty percent for reprinting, or printing. That is being observed or not? Devotee: Mm. Devotee (2): Well, we are giving as much as we can for the loans and with construction. We are just . . . Prabhupāda: Some business was started for . . . (indistinct) . . . for Book Trust? Devotee (2): No, not that I know of. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . (laughs) The jewelry business? Prabhupāda: And that business will not close. And in this way it will invest in some business risk. Devotee (2): Oh, that was with Karāndhara and Jayatīrtha. I did not even know about that. Prabhupāda: Invest . . . (indistinct) . . . should be stopped. Devotee (2): Yes, there is a loan that . . . Spiritual Sky has a large debt to the Book Trust, that they owe . . . Prabhupāda: How much? Devotee (2): Well, they told me it is somewhere 100,000, 150,000. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is this? Without consulting, Karāndhara has taken that money? Devotee (2): Yes. Apparently it was something that was done a long time ago. (break) Prabhupāda: Even I saw in Ramakrishna mission was sent. That's why I gave this solution. Now by God's grace it has . . . (indistinct) . . . nice business. Remember to do that. But this Trust money should not . . . Devotee (2): They cannot . . . they can work everything out themselves. (break) Prabhupāda: So Karāndhara is now in India. You have some correspondence? Devotee (2): Yes, he has . . . (break) Prabhupāda: He was Indian king. Devotee (2): That's why they recognize India, because they know that Lord Buddha is from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this Buddhist group. India is also a holy place for their . . . Devotee (2): Buddhists. Prabhupāda: . . . Buddhists. They go to see. Just like we have got with our Jagannātha Purī, they have got similar places in India. In Madhya Pradesh, in Bihar. They visit all these places. (aside) So, give him something to eat. Devotee: Yes. (end) Lecture Departure -- July 25, 1974, New York *Prabhupāda: . . . sa sannyāsī ( BG 6.1). The mission of sannyāsī is given in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Karmī. Karmī means he works, and he wants to enjoy the fruit. That is karmī . But Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, said, anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ (BG 6.1): one who does not take the result of karma . . . suppose you are a businessman. So you are working very hard, earning $50,000. If you don’t take that, then you are sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ, kāryaṁ : it is my duty. So if he does not take the result of karma , who will take? Kṛṣṇa said, kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇa : "Give Me." (laughter) Kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. Yat karoṣi, yaj juhoṣi, yad aśnāsi, yat tapasyasi kuruṣva (BG 9.27). This is life. You read Eighteenth Chapter, very nice verse. To give up the karma phalaṁ , the result of your work, to Kṛṣṇa—that is real sannyāsa; *that is real renunciation. (aside) So you try to impress on that way. You have got . . . (indistinct) . . . at Los Angeles, and uncover . . . (indistinct) . . . you can see? Send directly to Bali*-mardana. Devotee: He gave me the address . . . Prabhupāda: No, you can leave the check here. Devotee (1): . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Whatever detail can be sent. Just like we are traveling, we require thousands and thousands of dollars. Why shall I neglect? You cannot . . . if I do not want to spend money for airplane, how could I come to your country? So money is required. Money is not bad. Money, if it is spent for Kṛṣṇa, then it is Lakṣmī, real Lakṣmī, as lakṣmī sahasra-śata sambrahma*-sev . . . (Bs. 5.29). Laksmi's business is to stay engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. So all the money of the world, it should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa said, yat karoṣi : "Never mind whatever you are doing; *you give Me the result." Is it not? Bhagavad*-gītā , you have read it? Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So give to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa wants money for paying the airplane fare. (laughter) I am going, daily from . . . (indistinct) . . . New York to London, London to here, there, spending thousands and thousands of dollars. So who will pay? Kṛṣṇa will pay. Because I am servant of Kṛṣṇa, He will pay. This is our Gosvāmīs' instruction. Everything, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), everything has relation with Kṛṣṇa. So even is Kṛṣṇa's money, why should He give it, as . . . (indistinct) . . . as material? Anything dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. It is not material. Karma vairāgya . Rūpa Gosvāmī. Phalgu means false renunciation. False. Just like Māyāvādīs, they think, "No, no, we shall not touch it." Why not? What money has done? Money is Lakṣmī. Why it should be not touched? But engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Of course, one who has no idea of Kṛṣṇa—he cannot spend for Kṛṣṇa—he should not touch. That is good, because he will misuse. He should not touch. But one who can . . . who knows how to spend money for Kṛṣṇa, why he should not? So, New York temple is very nice, very . . . (indistinct) . . . don’t be disturbed by outward elements. Fix up your understanding. Then māyā will not be able to touch. Our this flourishing condition, there are so many envious persons, they want to destroy this organization. Because the whole world is full of envious persons. Material world means envious. So they know, so many enemies are . . . Kṛṣṇa will already protect; otherwise so many counteracting things are going on, especially in India. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu had to face so many. Kṛṣṇa had to kill so many demons from the beginning. Devotee (1): Right from His birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. So there are many demons. We have no strength to kill them, but Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Devotees: Jaya . Prabhupāda: They cannot win. Kṛṣṇa will kill them. Prahlāda Mahārāja could not kill Hiraṇyakaśipu, but Kṛṣṇa killed him. Anyone who is impediment to this movement, he will be killed. We must be also steady, very firmly convinced . . . (indistinct) . . . "I don’t care for them." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We should never deviate from the plan . . . (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever . . . man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can keep yourself on the standard, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā , to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa; *man*-manā bhava mad . . . mad yājī , worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is worshiping Kṛṣṇa, mad yājī . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Māṁ namaskuru . *Prabhupāda: And offering obeisances. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and distribute books, hear Bhagavad*-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , Deity worship. If you strictly follow these things, no māyā can touch you. And if you deviate, then māyā is very strong: immediately capture. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama maya (BG 7.14). Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did we get the permit to build the temple in Bombay now? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Did we get the permit to build . . . (break) Prabhupāda: . . . it cannot be checked by any material thing. Checking is for materialist, not for spiritual. (long pause) Don’t disagree with your wife. Since you have married, you have got good position. Then, first know that. Still you are . . . (indistinct) . . . one gets money if he is fortunate to have a good wife. And you are also fortunate, you have got sons . . . (indistinct) . . . putra . If one is fortunate to get nice husband, she gets nice son. And the husband gets good wife, he gets money. (laughter). It is tradition . . . (indistinct) . . . if one is good fortunate, he gets good wife like Taittirīya, (laughter) and gets money also. (laughter) Don’t fight. (break) (laughter) . . . (indistinct) . . . very intelligent. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is a very big women's liberation movement in America, they call it Women Lib. So they want equal opportunity for women. Prabhupāda: But who will give birth to the child? (laughter) Where is that liberation? (laughter) Can the woman transfer to the man to give birth to the child? (laughter). Devotee (2): They are trying. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Where is the liberty? The woman has to carry the child for ten months—nature's way. To go against nature, that is foolishness. God has made woman. Man should have respect . . . (indistinct) . . . what woman can do, man cannot do. What man can do, woman cannot do. So how there can be equal rights? That is not possible. Everyone should do his own duty and be happy. Kāryaṁ karma karoti (BG 6.1): "It is my duty. I have to do it." Husband should give all comforts to the wife; she may not be uncomfortable in any way. They want food, cloth, little ornaments. Yes. In so many ways, the husband must give to keep the woman satisfied . . . (indistinct) . . . in India you will find that the poor man, they will get—what is called—lead bangles. They cannot provide silver or gold, but bangle must be there. If not lead, then glass. She will be satisfied with good sārī , good bangle, good foods and some children. Thats all. (break) Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya (BG 4.8). Two things. Kṛṣṇa has got two things—to kill the demons and to benedict the devotees. (end) Conversation -- August 5, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . the business of the representative of Kṛṣṇa to push the nipple. Because they know what is the necessity. The whole world is upset for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the necessity. It is not a, I mean to say, whimsical sporting. It is the necessity. But they do not know. It is a very responsible task. That is called prayojana . Is it clear? What do you think? Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, they . . . there has to be . . . Prabhupāda: They do not know. The scientists, they do not know what is the necessity. (laughs) Do they know? Do you think, all the scientists, do they know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they know, they'll be all bhaktas . Prabhupāda: They do not know. Devotee: They think it is necessary to gratify the senses. Prabhupāda: They think that, that by gratifying senses . . . therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad. Brahmānanda: Chewing the chewed. *Prabhupāda: Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the Western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras , there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the Western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching, and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena . . . they examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing. *So therefore it is advised that tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ . By itching, by satisfying the senses, itching sensation, their troubles and miserable condition increasing. That they do not know. Increasing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu means much; *duḥkha means miserable condition. Therefore one who is sensible: kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . The dhīra , one is sober, he understands, "What I am doing? I am simply trying to eat, and the disease is increasing. Therefore it must be stopped." This is called dhīra . That is called dhīra . That is, one word is used, dhīra , in Kumāra*-sambhava , that Pārvatī was induced. Lord Śiva was in meditation, and the necessity was that Kārttikeya . . . Kārttikeya means "With the semina of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī's," what is called, "semen, they mix together, the child will be born. He can kill these demons." Therefore Kārttik . . . so Lord Śiva was engaged in meditation. So Pārvatī was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Śiva. That's . . . therefore they introduced this, Śiva-liṅga is worshiped. Śiva-liṅga. So when was worshiping, a young girl touching the genital, but he was sitting without any disturbance. Therefore he has been described, dhīra. Dhīra . One who is not disturbed by the sex impulse, even in the presence of very beautiful young girl, he is called dhīra . *So kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ . One has to become dhīra . That is wanted. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Twice he was induced by very beautiful young girl at dead of night. But he remained . . . "Yes, I'll satisfy you." He turned . . . that is called dhīra . There is another place. The dhīra word is used in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That dhīra . Dhīras tatra na muhyati . Brahmānanda: Even by death he is not disturbed. *Prabhupāda: Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra . Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then . . . that is the prayojana*-siddhi , to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). Bhagavad-bhajan , devotional service of the Lord, means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya : going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). It is dangerous; it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam , to mix with the . . . or . . . mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām . To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra , he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra . Then we are fit candidates for going back to home, back to Godhead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra . Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana*-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahana . And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana; *He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana*-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī. *Brahmānanda: One is Madan*-madana? *Prabhupāda: One is Madana, and Kṛṣṇa enchants Madana. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful that Madana becomes enchanted by Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī is so beautiful that Kṛṣṇa becomes enchanted. That is spiritual sex. That is not so ordinary. Therefore the attraction of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir (CC Adi 1.5). This is the spiritual energy, display of spiritual energy. But the sahajiyās , they take as material attractions. As we are attracted, men and women, similarly, they take the Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa attraction is like that . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- September 10, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: . . . within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet. Gurudāsa: Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā. Prabhupāda: Long, long ago? Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And it was very nice? Gurudāsa: It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it. Prabhupāda: Hmm. In India, amongst the Brahmins , this self cooking is very much . . . (indistinct) Gurudāsa: I think it . . . (break) . . . prasādam in a very simple way. When you cook yourself, very simple. Prabhupāda: Jaya . (break) *Gurudāsa: . . . Rādhā*-Dāmodara, did you cook yourself? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Gurudāsa: Sarajini helped? Prabhupāda: Sarajini simply washed the dishes, cleansed the room, set out the bedding. I was cooking. Devotee (1): Soviet, Soviet land, I forget the exact title. And this one woman was a poet. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): She was a poet. In one article in the magazine. And she was . . . stated in her magazine how much she was sorry about her youth. Prabhupāda: Youth. Devotee (1): Yeah, that she was living very poorly, and her father had to work all day very hard as a goldsmith or tinsmith. And how she remembers her mother, that she was kept in such poor conditions that all her life she was very miserable. And she said that she was thinking that her mother might have been a great poet or a great scientist, but because of being oppressed by the higher class of Russia, that she could not develop, she simply was forced to live a very poor life. So I was able to understand that actually they are thinking that being oppressed by the higher classes, the lower class cannot properly develop their qualities. *Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot . . . you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer. Best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son*-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that, "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit that, "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things . . . Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been . . . but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to . . . they write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. You see? This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām . You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām ? Devotee (1): "Without envy"? Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is envious. Whole world. I am envious to you; you are envious of me. Then Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām ( SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa, and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it . . . it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take others' money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to . . . he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is animal, it was deluded that, "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." Even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also . . . how can you stop it? That will be not stopped'. They do not know. Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working. *This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful young woman, but you will be not . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam . Acireṇa dhīraḥ . *So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra . He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desire, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch . . . (indistinct) . . . never satisfied. Hṛd*-rogaḥ kāmam , that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease, lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease. Similarly, these . . . all these living entities, they have succumbed—what is called, succumb?—by lusty desire. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be . . . then there is no more envious that, "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking, "I shall become minister"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become leader"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become millionaire"; and at last, "I shall become God." *So even the so*-called religionist, the heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī . Bhukti means ordinary karmīs , want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti , they also want, "I shall become God. I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." "One with God" means I'll become. Bhukti, mukti and siddhi . The yogīs , they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing . . . (indistinct) . . . Pagala Baba. He has some yogic siddhi , so he has some . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that, "If I pay him one lakh , I shall get two lakhs ." This is the propaganda. It is a . . . what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful, you will get four rupees. Siddhi . Because material world, they think, "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking—nation-wise, individual—how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished, accomplishment coming on one side, one side it is burst out into war. But you see, propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Devotee (2): They have a pyramid? Prabhupāda: Yes, they have brought. Devotee (1): It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt. Prabhupāda: And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In Rome, they are also maintaining such museum, and Paris I saw. This is their competition—wholesale plundering. Wholesale plundering. Devotee (1): They take it . . . (break) Prabhupāda: We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not a civilization. And *Mahābhārata* history also we find so many demons. Just like . . . what is called, that asura , he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses. Devotee (2): Bhaumāsura? Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They pray to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of . . . then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that, "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . this is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle . . . (indistinct) . . . the Musselman nawabs, they used to keep . . . that one nawab in . . . they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the . . . (indistinct) . . . and his wife. So he has got three wives—one Bengali wife, one U.P. wife, and his original wife being dead. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his. Devotee (2): (laughs) He cannot keep them satisfied. Prabhupāda: How it is possible? He's an old man, and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection—beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally. Devotee (1): They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class. Prabhupāda: That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy. Devotee (1): This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . grama*-kuli. Jala-batta . . . (indistinct) . . . he is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascals' poetry, just like in your country: one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside) You should not show your feet this is the etiquette. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu , "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody . . . therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? . . . (indistinct) Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated. Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave; artificially he thinks, "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam (BG 16.13). Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money . . . (indistinct) . . . lot of money, so who is better than me?" . . . (indistinct) . . . she has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road: the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal . . . (indistinct) . . . an apartment, very nice apartment . . . (indistinct) . . . it is . . . fact is there. Either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no . . . (indistinct) Devotee (1): So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, then he will be accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness. Devotee (2): "Therefore let me eliminate you." Prabhupāda: Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsaratā. Yayā sammohito jīva . *Yayā sammohito jīva . Vyāsadeva, by bhakti*-yoga , he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā . . . Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva : that māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam (SB 1.7.5). And being captivated by this māyā , although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate . In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw. *So this is called anartha , a position which is false. So, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ . The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . Therefore Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje . These things are there in the Bhāgavata . Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing. *This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra*-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau , for the benefit of the whole world. We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī , they do for their own person. Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs , for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau . Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau . Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau . Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa , "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant." "I want to only eat the dust of the . . . (indistinct) . . . feet." Everything is there; *simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means life of realization, self*-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself . . . (indistinct) . . . "What I am?" (pause) (break) *But if you remain diseased, then . . . just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First*-class things are being made—nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease, is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom; *I shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . ." Similarly, the so*-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there, "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogīs , they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta' (CC Madhya 19.149). By kṛṣṇa-bhakti , you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ (SB 10.33.39). This is only . . . unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying, and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam . (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, this . . . (indistinct) . . . created . . . (indistinct) . . . little. And even he is thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām . Material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step . . . (end) Conversation -- September 11, 1974, Vrndavana Prabhupāda: It will go on like that. In America, in Moscow, why you are envious of me? That disease is there. His enviousness is a different quality. Actually, comparing with America, the people are more happy in America, not in Russia. It's a fact. I have seen it. They are terrorized. No freedom. So everyone is terrorized. They must be. What is that? Is that life? I have to live under terrorism conditions. I must do it . . . (indistinct) . . . this is not life. Brahmānanda: Here comes Gurudāsa. (break) Gurudāsa: Morning, 11 September, 1974, Vṛndāvana. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that manager and assisting managers is not difficult, except that all the European and American boys didn't understand the concept of prabhu . We each call each other prabhu , but we are thinking that, "I am prabhu , and all others are servants," not that the one I am calling prabhu or the one who is calling me prabhu are mutual prabhus . (break) Brahmānanda: He's typing the tapes now. To type one tape takes him about eight hours. Prabhupāda: Eight hours? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: How is that? Brahmānanda: That is the usual time. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (1): It's not possible. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): It's not possible to take so long. Brahmānanda: But he puts the Bengali and the Sanskrit in. Devotee (1): They were telling me three to four hours. Brahmānanda: Who? (break) *Prabhupāda: Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavata is being accepted everywhere. Big, big libraries, universities. University, Bombay University. As far as possible . . . (indistinct) . . . all colleges. (break) There is no . . . (indistinct) . . . making word meaning, word-to-word meaning . . . (indistinct) . . . when there is word . . . (break) You should be clear of all questions possible. Then you will be able to push very forcibly. You must be prepared to answer all the questions. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda, one question: You say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will solve all problems. But factually, there are so many problems in the world that aren't being solved. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Brahmānanda: So many problems in the world, and many say that they can solve all the problems. So what is the proof? Prabhupāda: They could not. The problems are there. Brahmānanda: Sometimes we are criticized. They say: "Oh, you say you can solve all problems. That is utopian. That is . . ." Prabhupāda: Not utopian. You do not know. Because just like when you are diseased, there is problem. So to solve that problem, where do you go? Hmm? Brahmānanda: To the doctor. Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent; *not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru . So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru ? He taught, He gave lesson to Brahmā, the original living being in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā . He gave lesson to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, . . . (indistinct) . . . he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted the supreme guru . To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble. You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru , instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru . That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet , vidhi-liṅ . In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhi-liṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. *So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru . Tene brahma ādi*-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi , the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can . . . (indistinct) . . . and he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot . . . (indistinct) . . . you have not solved any question. Therefore required, they say, revolution. Problem is not solved. We are accepting one wrong process, and after going through it for some time, we want to change it. That is not solution. That means you do not know how to make it solved; *you're simply trying this method, that method, this method, that method. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is not perfect. But because you cannot solve, therefore you say that a periodical revolution is required, because you have no solution. You do not know how to solve, but you accept some process for some time, and when you see it is useless, you make revolution, another . . . (indistinct) . . . imperfect. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām ( SB 7.5.30). Practically we see that. There is sex. Material life means sex pleasure. You told me you were in Mexico, in the street they are having sex? Brahmānanda: Yes. Oh, meaning in public? Prabhupāda: Yes, you told me. What is that? Brahmānanda: They have it with . . . you mean with the asses? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Public street. Because they do not know except sex, they think this kind of sex is very nice. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30): chewing the chewed. Brahmānanda: They're not satisfied with sex with a man, so they have it with an ass. *Prabhupāda: (greeting someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Their center is sex—this sex or that sex or that sex, even ordinarily. In Paris, Paris you know, it is a city of prostitutes. On the roads there are prostitutes. Where we have got our temple, so many prostitutes are standing. And those who are prostitute*-hunters, they go to Paris. From our childhood I know about one family physician. We are at that time boy, eight or ten years old. He was talking with his another Muhammadan friend how he toured many countries and how many different types of prostitutes he taste. This was his talk. So he was talking of Paris, "Though you are boy . . ." This we could understand. This is the talk. Old men, retired men, they will also talk of sex . . . (indistinct) . . . and they will enjoy. Now they could not enjoy sex, but by talking . . . and we have practically seen when we were young, our grandmother-in-law, my father-in-law's mother, old lady, she would talk freely about sex. She will ask me, "You capture the breast of your wife." She would make a pun and enjoy. "You do like that, you do like that." She teaches like that. We were . . . I was twenty, twenty-three years, so I was just married, but she will enjoy sex. She had other grandchildren. My father-in-law were two brothers. So my father-in-law, he was younger brother, and his elder brother, her daughter was of the same age, she would enjoy . . . (indistinct) . . . grandson-in-law. There is a proverb . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) Ministers, nine ministers. The minister, famous. Brahmānanda: Birbal. Prabhupāda: Birbal. So Akbar Vasar asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day, all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar Vasar's house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar Vasar's daughter, king's daughter, very . . . (indistinct) . . . so the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar Vasar. He was looking over that young girl. Both of them are intelligent. Then Akbar Vasar said, "Yes. You are right" *And our śāstra says, yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi . There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; *therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi . What is the standard of happiness? Maithuna , sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi . All these gṛhasthas , you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life. They are busy. Especially in India you will find, they spend thousands lakhs of rupees for son's and daughter's and grandson's sex life. Is it not? That is their happiness. "I am enjoying sex life." Just like my grandmother*-in-law. She is concentrating on sex life. So she was old; *she had no opportunity. Let grandson*-in-law, granddaughter. One who is impotent, he wants to see others enjoying sex life. You know this? He enjoys. He cannot do it. There are many person, he is impotent, so he brings another man to his wife, then he watches. You know this? This is going on. Sex. They will see the dog's sex life, very . . . (indistinct) . . . how he is enjoying. Cow's sex life. Dog is having sex, and there will be a crowd. *This is the basic principle of material life: sex. In this way, prostitution, this way, that way, that way, that way. This is the only point. There is no other aim. Yan maithunadi*-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). And this kind of happiness is most abominable. Most abominable. But that is the center of happiness. Is it not? Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham . Most abominable part of the body for passing urine, obnoxious smell, but that is the point of life. How much degraded this material life. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ . The śāstra has picked up most abominable thing: that is the point of pleasure. Yan maithunādi. Maithunādi , either he himself, or for his son, for his grandson, for his great-grandson, the family. Very aristocratic. *So if we study analytically, we can understand that how much we are in illusion. This most abominable thing, we are taking it is the center of happiness. (break) Therefore, Vaiṣṇava . . . (indistinct) . . . māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). These rascals, they are enjoying a certain type of most abominable happiness. Tato vimukha-cetasa indriyārtha . So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me, I have no problem. All problems solved." Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyām tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ . "I am not afraid of this material world, because I have learned how to enjoy life simply by thinking of Your pastimes. But I am unhappy." Soce. Soce means unhappy. Why? Tato vimukha-cetasa . "These rascals who have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have made huge arrangement simply for sex." Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān . "I am thinking of these rascals, how they can be delivered from this fallen condition." So the Vaiṣṇava has no problem; *he has got Kṛṣṇa. But he wants to preach to save these rascals. This is Vaiṣṇava's duty. But if he is fallen himself, how he can save others? That is not possible. Then it will be andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is leading others. What is that? They will all fall into ditch. Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, bharata*-bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari' (CC Adi 9.41): "First of all you be perfect, because you have got opportunity, and then do para-upakāra . Then go to other country and deliver them." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Not that you remain blind and go there. Just like all these rascal svāmīs and yogīs , they are blind. They do not know what is spiritual life. Andhā yathāndhair . They are blind, and their talks are simply big, big talks . . . (indistinct) . . . here also, this Rakhanananda, he is speaking on Bhāgavata . He is a rascal, blind; he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He is misleading others. You have seen in Bombay that Sadajivatlal brought some pictures? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mīrābhāi is becoming mixed up with Kṛṣṇa. Have seen it? Brahmānanda: Yes, that was the final point. She worshiped Kṛṣṇa throughout her whole life so at the end she could become one with Him. Prabhupāda: This is going on, the Māyāvādī rascals. But they do not refer where Kṛṣṇa says that, "You become My devotee, then you become pushed . . . (indistinct) . . ." Brahmānanda: They showed the two bodies coming together. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: I think the picture of the two bodies . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that, "You and Me and all these soldiers, we existed before, we are existing now, and we shall exist in this way in future." Where does He say that, "We shall be mixed up"? Never says. And these rascals, they have got so many parties, the same thing. Where do you get this idea? There is sayujya*-mukti , but Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You take it." All this Ramakrishna Mission, all these, this . . . (indistinct) . . . he gives the example that rivers come from different sources, but when it comes to the ocean it is mixed up. Why don't you see within the water? Within the water there are big, big fishes, they do not mix up with the water. They see superficially the water. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). Our philosophy is, "Come. Come here, play with Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boy. Come here, dance with Kṛṣṇa as gopī . Come here, accept Kṛṣṇa as your son, Kṛṣṇa will accept you as your (His) mother." There will be always two, and enjoy, any way. Even as enemy, demon displaying part of enemy, Kṛṣṇa killing, that is also pastime too. That is also enjoyment. Just like sometimes we fight, friend to friend, to enjoy life, because fighting is enjoyment. To become enemy of Kṛṣṇa purposefully, and to fight with Him, that is giving pleasure to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying, and He also becomes so staunch enemy. So this is also transcendental pleasure. Just like Bhīṣma. He is piercing the body of Kṛṣṇa, and He is coming with cakra . That is a pleasure. Kṛṣṇa is enjoying being pierced by His devotee. And devotee is enjoying, "Now Kṛṣṇa is coming to kill me." *So any way you can deal with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy transcendental pleasure, either as enemy or as friend or as son or as lover, as master, as a servant—any way. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to deal with you any way, in twelve rasas, akhila*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Raso vai saḥ , in the Vedas , He is the reservoir of all pleasure, transcendental. Labdha-nandini . When we exchange rasa , transcendental mellow, labdha-nandini , then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered round the sex, this way, that way, similarly the transcendentalist, they are . . . their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen? Brahmānanda: Yes, in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: The center is sex. The birds. Brahmānanda: The birds also. Prabhupāda: Everyone. *Yāmunācārya. He was a great king. So his . . . as king, his life was sex. But then he became a devotee, he admits, yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde : "Since I have learned how to enjoy association with the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and I get more and more eternal transcendental bliss, since that time," bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne , "even if I think of sex life with woman," bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ, mukha-vikāraḥ , "I taste that . . . (indistinct) . . ." suṣṭhu niṣṭhīvanaṁ , (makes spitting sound). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When the mind will be fixed up, (spitting sound), these things, then you enter Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise, it is mixed up. You have to purify. When this attitude, we (spitting sound)—"What is this?"—then Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins. This is the proof, Yāmunācārya. Tadavadhi bata nārī-saṅgame smaryamāne . So not actually doing; *simply by thinking, "Oh, I was doing this. (spitting sound) What I was?" this is liberation. Even if I think mentally, that means I will have to take birth again. Again and again. This is the criteria. They think mentally. They read so many novels, fiction. The same thing—the sex life. And these ordinary men, they read Bhāgavata , hear Bhāgavata, rasa*-līlā . They think, "Here is the same thing. Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs do like this, the same thing. So why not hear this?" But actually, śāstra says if one hears rasa-līlā , then that lusty desires will be finished. *That is the result. If one actually hears from the right source . . . (indistinct) . . . then this lusty desire of sex life will be finished. No more. Hṛd*-rogaṁ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ . Sober. But these people, they are hearing life after life by the sex concentration, making offense that Kṛṣṇa is also doing the same things. They publish book. One rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has published. In Paris we saw. Devotee (2): The Myth of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, sex life. Rādhārāṇī naked, he has given the first picture, and that is published by the United Nation. Gurudāsa: The United Nations is also encouraging sex. *Prabhupāda: They do not know except this thing, anyone. Anyone. They have no other desire. That without sex life there can be higher transcendental, eternal pleasure, they do not know it. Whole world, whole universe, whole material creation is centered round that. It is the pivot. That I have already explained. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is there. They do not know anything else. Brahmānanda: That was one of your first instructions to me when I came to see you. I was telling you about a professor, one of my professors who saw that all literature, all culture, all poetry, everything was simply motivated by sex life, and you said that he was right. I thought he was wrong, but you said no, he was right, and you explained about the same point. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the Freud philosophy is centered around sex. They do not know. How they can know? Only the Kṛṣṇa conscious person, that is yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde nava-nava-dhāmany udyatam . Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was a young man. Beautiful young prostitute at dead of night came to canvass. "Yes, sit down. I shall finish this Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Haridāsa Ṭhākura took his compassion: "This woman has come to me. All right." Three days she become purified. Immediately fell down, "Thank you very much. Now I can understand." "Now you have to sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." (end) Room Conversations with Sannyäsés -- March 15, 1974, Våndävana Śyāmasundara: Have money to expand. Everything is going nice. It is organized. Prabhupāda: Yes. Management means everything is in order, otherwise what is the illusion of (indistinct). Śyāmasundara: If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward. Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes though it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a,... Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: I went to wake a devotee up, I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said "Prabhu, you want to get up now, it's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake but I, I went ahead and bathed because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for ārati. So I said, "If you are not going to bathe at least get out of bed and come to āratik. But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions when you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm. Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by, by pouring water on the root. Prabhupāda: That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is left, then you can maybe say, "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply wake up, wake up, wake up, all right, I'm waking up (indistinct). But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately. Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the āratik. Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: We go to the, up into the temple for the āratik, so he stays in bed and sleeps and we go to the āratik. Prabhupāda: No, that if he stays in the bed, then ask (him) to leave (?). Yes. Not that fight. Hayagrīva: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hayagrīva: I just want to say one thing, that this, then I'll leave because this is a meeting of the management here, but I saw the boy after he was beaten, and as far as I'm concerned that was very... Prabhupāda: That I have (indistinct) later. (to someone else?) Hayagrīva: That was very cruel, it looked very cruel to me. It looked like he was beaten with boards. It looked criminal. So, I don't think uh, if it happened to me I would sue. If that happened to me. The boy's eye could be put out. That's not good, under any circumstance. Prabhupāda: That we are discussing. That was not a very (indistinct). *Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all*-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask, "When is he coming?" (indistinct). As soon as (indistinct), immediately I ask. So there may be more (indistinct), but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is slipping, the kīrtana is going on (indistinct) morning, (indistinct) is going on. So he maybe said that if you sleep like that then you cannot do it. Devotee: I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why you (indistinct) something, pour water on his body? Devotee: Simply to wake him. Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some kind of... Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, best thing was to say that he is not in good (indistinct) now, say to me that he is incorrigible. (indistinct) He may be one day, once, twice, if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also... The police said that when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four." Nobody. What can I answer? Devotee: How can he say that Śrīla Prabhupāda? How can he see if anyone is rising at four or not? Prabhupāda: Now here is the (indistinct). He says that nobody rises early in the morning. Just like yourself. Śyāmasundara: But he is rising. Devotee: I am, I am rising. Prabhupāda: He is rising, but others! Pañcadraviḍa: Some others are rising, not, not all, but some of them are rising. Śyāmasundara: The whole point is that the sannyāsīs must see that that standard is kept to the highest. That's their job. That's why you've taken... Prabhupāda: But that should be observed and peacefully it should be settled. If it is not peacefully settled, the man who will continually disobey, he should be respectfully asked, "Please go home." You cannot... That... Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to say to somebody, "Please go," though? Prabhupāda: Huh? Pañcadraviḍa: Who has the authority to tell a person, "Please go." We don't know who, I don't know who has that authority. Prabhupāda: The president will say. So long I am here, I shall say. (indistinct) Śyāmasundara: This, this daṇḍa gives authority to the... Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Prabhupāda: That gives authority. Acyutānanda: Not in ISKCON. Śyāmasundara: Yes it does. In U.S. ... Acyutānanda: No, no it doesn't. They do not respect sannyāsīs. (devotees all talk at once) Śyāmasundara: Because you may not deserve it then. Acyutānanda: Now I'm getting so... The thing is they may say like that but behind my back people are talking, saying this... Prabhupāda: Now if they do not offer, obey the orders of the sannyāsī, then naturally... But that thing should be brought to the notice of higher or some official, president. Then steps should be taken, that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave. It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī, leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations. And then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times please... Like that. Śyāmasundara: If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected. Acyutānanda: Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one... Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to other center. Acyutānanda: I wanted to ask him to leave but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out? Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not, then he must leave. That is... We are making so much preaching work to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason we ask, that is not... Devotee: (softly) This was not a paltry reason. Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and... That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something he is doing wrong..., that he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our word, śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ (?). By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my (indistinct). Because they are, they are, you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu. It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu. That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible... After trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be..., "Get out.'' That "get out,'' if you make, then everything has to be "get out.'' That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything. Devotee: Engagement. Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say, "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money, what can be done? But I don't think if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required. Human being, after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep them (indistinct), how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me (indistinct) this way. We have to do like that. Not that I (order), "Come on, you do this. Oh, you cannot do, get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for preaching and that preaching means one should behave himself, nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda Kumāra, you. He was accusing you, you were accusing him. I heard from (indistinct). So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take. Supposing some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health. That is because... Otherwise regularly I was taking. Not even hot water. Regularly. This hot water bath I have begun in your country, otherwise I have never taken. Even in severest cold. Here also I am trying to avoid. I am keeping tub of water sunshine. Whatever little warm may become, that's all. So, of course, for special health reason one cannot rise, he is sick and cannot attend, otherwise everyone should rise early in the morning, take bath and be ready for performing our service by six o'clock or five o'clock. And the kīrtana party, you should know everyone go. It may be small distance, but all our men should go. That will be real (indistinct), early in the morning. So many parties come. *Śyāmasundara: From three*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: Three*-thirty. So you behave yourself and others will follow you. What is that? Cleanliness and following the routine work. That is our method. You must be very clean, neat and clean, rise early in the morning. We have got our duties. *Śyāmasundara: Just like yesterday, Dvija Hari came over and he said he couldn't get anyone to clean the temple. No one would clean over at Keśi*-ghāṭa. So I said, "Well there are so many sannyāsīs there. Ask them to organize a cleansing party." He said, "Oh, no one will clean." They don't want to do it. So... Prabhupāda: Why not some, some people clean like this, you have to get cleaning (indistinct). Śyāmasundara: If they won't, then you show them how, you, you do it also. Acyutānanda: ...because so many people have come and gone. We had a cleaning group and it left for other parties. Śyāmasundara: No, but I am just saying, there are many men there who could have cleaned, but they refused to do it because they are following your examples. Acyutānanda: I'm cleaning my room, I'm cleaning outside also. Don't, you haven't seen it. Śyāmasundara: I'm not criticizing, I'm just... Prabhupāda: Anyway, whatever is done is done, you should be followed like that, that āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. This should be the principle. One should teach others by behaving himself correctly. Then it will be... Everyone should remain cleansed, everyone should rise early in the morning, begin to work, comes to, everyone routine work. So then you can ask them, "Why you are not trying? Why you are not..." Then he will accept. (indistinct) This principle should be followed, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. Is it not? Acyutānanda: Yes. Well, for myself in particular, I don't think that many people take my words very heavily. There is so much bad talking about me. First they say the songs are māyā, then the tunes are māyā. They have, behind my back I hear all kinds of things they are saying. So nobody takes my words seriously. Even though I may quote from any scripture right, they don't respect me. Prabhupāda: What is that māyā? Songs are māyā? Acyutānanda: As soon as I left Calcutta, then all the bhajanas, they are all, "Oh that's Gauḍīya Maṭha poison." Then, "Ok, the songs are all right, but the tunes are poison." Now how can I overcome that? Pañcadraviḍa: I heard something in reference to that. You wrote one of the devotees in Calcutta. You wrote... He came to Bombay, Bhavānanda, and he said, and he had signed a letter something like, "I pray that I may be engaged in the service of my Guru Mahārāja." And you wrote back: "We are personalists to the letter, so that when we say Guru Mahārāja we always say name, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, or Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. We don't just leave it in, as vague Guru Mahārāja. So we were singing, jaya prabhupāda jaya gurudeva, and he was saying, "Well that is impersonalist." *Acyutānanda: Also he says "Nitāi*-gaura haribol! That is also, that's māyā." So, what is that? Pañcadraviḍa: And so he was saying that all these bhajanas, they are, they are not bonafide, because they are, have... Prabhupāda: He said: "Gaura haribol! is not bona fide?" He said, bona fide? Devotee: Oh, not that, he was saying jaya gurudeva, jaya prabhupāda, that is not good. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: I said, was saying, that is not good, jaya gurudeva, because it does not say who, it just says gurudeva. It could be any gurudeva. So he was criticizing that. Prabhupāda: Who was criticizing? Pañcadraviḍa: Bhavānanda. Because of the letter you wrote to him saying that we are personalist to the letter. Acyutānanda: So it means I am a Māyāvādī, that's what it means. Śyāmasundara: It's a matter of overall conduct, not just individual specific things. Acyutānanda: That overall I'm a Māyāvādī. Devotee: I find an overall bad atmosphere in India. Resentment against many of the devotees. Party politics and different things like that are going on. It's not limited, it's going on all over India. Devotees: That's so. Very heavy. Śyāmasundara: Just like with, just like with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. He has the respect of everyone because he is doing such a good job of managing, and he's just, he's doing, he's performing nicely his devotional work, and he's getting some results. That's respect. Then you'll get respect. Bali Mardana Mahārāja, he's built up ISKCON Press till it's just like (snaps finger) that, and everyone touches his feet when they see him. You don't find anyone disrespecting him, because he's performing his duties. You automatically get respect if you perform something nicely. Not just say, "Oh, the atmosphere's bad..." Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated from. We are all trying to preach. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some (indistinct). So generally with our, general rules are (indistinct). First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and (indistinct) performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there. Pañcadraviḍa: In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing as, exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on the level of sense gratification, end that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa. Prabhupāda: This is a fact. So how to correct it. If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct? Pañcadraviḍa: Well we, many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense, and if you try to stop them they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it's not falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is, that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place. *Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract when people are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are..." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be (indistinct). Another, this is general principle, now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing that Keśi*-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property (indistinct). What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now, because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed, otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless, that means there must be sufficient bank balance. Such a big temple. Devotee: I don't. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi*-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but... Prabhupāda: At the present it is not... Devotee: It's so big, it's so big. Devotee (2): Most of the quality of people that are there less people of a higher quality in a smaller place, it would do much more good. Like I was in the Philippines by myself, all alone, but still the work would go on much quicker because I could avoid all of this. I could avoid all of this what with we're having right now, I could avoid it completely because I was, there was nobody there to cause it, all new people. Śyāmasundara: Everybody here knows everything. (laughter) Devotee (2): And it goes up very quickly because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time but it will be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a... Prabhupāda: Then what is your suggestion? Devotee (2): That we start a small center and then you develop it gradually with less, with less inexperienced people... Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for... Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months. Devotee (2): Well we're not saying that it, he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point. Devotee (3): At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a, it is not a, it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already. Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage... Prabhupāda: At Singapore our men cannot enter. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): This has happened. Devotee (3): There's many places that, although legally we can enter, still people don't like us, you know. Prabhupāda: That Singapore (indistinct) enter. Śyāmasundara: They wouldn't even let you enter. *Devotee (3): I think that his point, I think we spoke about this in Manila, was that anywhere in the world, in, as a general policy, from what I've experienced is that if one or two people are sent to an area, or are in an area and they are given full authority to try to get that population to engage in bhakti*-yoga, engage in this process, that that gradual development with the local people, that that has more effect than... Śyāmasundara: Yeah, it's more successful. Devotee (3): ...than if we bring in a big party and try to do a big thing. And then, then the person has to get strong, who's doing it. If I have to go somewhere, then I have to get strong for myself, I have to start from scratch. Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I know the difficulty they're having, sannyāsīs have here, because many of these devotees think it's more like a tour, vacation, to come to India. They don't have to follow the rules and regulations... Devotee: Right. Śyāmasundara: ...they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow... Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): If the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti. It can't be a negative (indistinct) thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person. Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so, under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees? Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta, we have our base in Bombay, those two places. Prabhupāda: Ah. Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world. Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating (indistinct). Devotees: No, no. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know, it's really, if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally. Śyāmasundara: Of course if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available. Devotee (2): I don't think we need to worry about that. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (2): I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp..., we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future. Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Devotee (2): If we have devotees then... Śyāmasundara: That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it really. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all... We have seen that all over India. They have giant temples but no... Prabhupāda: No management. Devotee (3): No management. Pañcadraviḍa: As far as the men since I think a lot are even, some cases they are sending problem cases to India, people they can't manage in the states. I think maybe if you divide, if you actually, since in the states you've divided the states into territories and certain men have certain territories. If you maybe appoint certain people in charge of territories of India and ask them which men they want, then they will tell you who they want, and the rest they can send away or send somewhere else. Then you'll have solid centers because the men will actually be desired. Śyāmasundara: That's a good idea. Prabhupāda: That's good. So you make like that. Śyāmasundara: That's what, didn't Śaṅkarācārya do that, divide up four parts? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are... Śaṅkarācārya was concerned in India. But we are preaching all over the world. Therefore we have divided four, twelve. Twelve zones. My idea is like that, Śaṅkarācārya. Śyāmasundara: But India itself could be divided even a few parts for preaching purposes. Prabhupāda: That is already divided. Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge they could say which men they wanted to keep and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project, and if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else. Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration. Devotee: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad and we can ask him to do it. Prabhupāda: Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī, one of the biggest sannyāsīs, Gangesvarananda(?), he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource, men and money he has. Immense resource. Śyāmasundara: We have to be careful not to... Prabhupāda: Huh? Śyāmasundara: ...not to offend these people the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Spiritual leaders. Prabhupāda: So, not offense (?). There is no question of making. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing that is (indistinct). You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything, everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible. Even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle, and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end) Morning Walk -- January 3, 1974, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...is that nṛpa*-liṅga-dharaṁ śūdram. The śūdras, fourth-class men, they are on the government executive. This is one defect. And another defect is ghnantaṁ go-mithunaṁ padā, maintaining large-scale slaughterhouse. These are the two defects of modern civilization. They..., on the top of government there are śūdras, not kṣatriyas. Neither they are guided by intelligent class, brāhmaṇas. Parīkṣit Mahārāja's first beginning is dvija-varya-śikṣayā. The guidance was first-class brāhmaṇas, and he was a kṣatriya, first-class. And there was no animal slaughterhouse. They are also suffering. They are bringing every day some problem. "What is the solution of this problem, what is this solution...?" But why the problems are coming? Because the defect is there that the, on the head of the government there are śūdras and they are busy in cow-killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. This is the defect. And they are not guided by the first-class, intelligent class of men. [break] Prajāpati: ...getting worse over these five thousand years, but by a reintroduction, reintroducing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the tide can be turned in age of Kali? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only remedy. That is the only remedy. Anyone who takes to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be cleansed of all sinful activities and then everything will come out nice. And it is practical. It is not story. Just see, all our disciples in Europe, America, they were habituated to so many bad habits, and because they are chanting, they are now cleansed. So it is small*-scale. If you propagate it large-scale, everyone will be cleansed. [break] ...disciples who were trained up from very beginning of their life: meat-eating. They are giving meat-eating. Here in your country, small children, they are fed with meat-powder. Intoxication is also a daily affair. How they are giving up all intoxication? [break] Is there arrangement for... Where is Karandhara? Karandhara: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That placard, poster? Karandhara: Prajāpati and I discussed it yesterday and we're trying to find an artist to do it. *Prajāpati: Nara*-nārāyaṇa Prabhu's good wife is expert artist. Prabhupāda: Ah. Prajāpati: And she has... I guess she has agreed to... *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, she is very nice, good artist. Give her engagement like this. Prajāpati: Maybe you could explain us a little more detail of the... Prabhupāda: No, with very much detail it will be cumbrous. You... Symbolic representation. Prajāpati: Those three figures in the center? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: One is a devotee, one is a... Prabhupāda: No, everyone is devotee. Prajāpati: Yes, they are all three devotees. Prabhupāda: But they're engaged in three departments. Karandhara: We were thinking for the administrator there could be a judge. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Karandhara: Could be a judge, a high*-court judge. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means administrator. Karandhara: Yes. The other one could be the president. Prabhupāda: Yes, president also administrator. No, one is in the religious order. That is also required. But here we see, persons who are in religious order, they're also addicted to these four sinful, four sinful life. And he's presenting himself as religious. *Karandhara: On the one should we depict meat*-eating or animal slaughter? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Karandhara: Should we depict animal*-slaughter or meat-eating? Prabhupāda: Animal slaughter. Karandhara: Animal slaughter. Prabhupāda: That will be still broader. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: The three figures and one is in a suit, one... They all have tilaka, neck beads and bead bag... Prabhupāda: Religious man may be in saffron color, a sannyāsī, a tridaṇḍī sannyāsī. Our Gurukṛpā Mahārāja? Where is he? Karandhara: Gurukṛpā Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Eh? Here are religious men. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Oh! (laughter) Jaya! Prajāpati: How will we distinguish between the other two men? They'll both be in suits. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Karandhara: Well, the one man, the president, will be behind the presidential podium, presidential seal. In the front. And the other man would be a high*-court judge with... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Karandhara: ...with black robes on. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: With a, two balls. *Prabhupāda: Make nicely this picture. Short*-cut, at the same time very convincing. [break] Yes? New Devotee: I'm very new to this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement and I'm not as firm as your devotees. Right now I'm being torn in half. Māyā is so strong and I see so much of what you say. Is there... Prabhupāda: What is this? New Devotee: Doubts. Prabhupāda: What is your doubt? New Devotee: Mental speculation. Prabhupāda: So you want to continue it or stop it? New Devotee: Stop it. Prabhupāda: Then stop it. Take instruction from the śāstra. Don't speculate. That will not help you. The same example, a child's speculation, "Who is my father?" He will never be successful. But as soon as he asks his mother, "Who is my father?" Immediately knowledge: "Here is your father." Finished. New Devotee: Association is very important. Prabhupāda: Eh? New Devotee: Association. Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to take information from the authority. That knowledge is perfect. And these rascals, philosophical, scientific speculation, all useless waste of time. New Devotee: I live in Long Beach and I will be going to school soon, but I'm... *Prabhupāda: Hm. We don't accept any speculative knowledge. We want final conclusion of the experienced person. Nṛpa*-nirṇītaḥ, this word is used. Nṛpa-nirṇītaḥ, it is concluded. Kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. Idaṁ hi puṁsas śrutas..., tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. Nirṇītaḥ... These words are... It is already concluded. There is no question of argument. In the Vedic literature, these words are used, nṛpa-nirṇītaḥ, nirūpitaḥ. New Devotee: I should abandon... *Prabhupāda: Nāsato vidyate bhāvo nā..., asataḥ vidyate bhāvaḥ. What is the next line? So, we take things which is conclusive. The scientists, they are making experiment, where is the beginning of life. Misled. They are thinking life is from matter. They have no experience. Still, the rascal Darwin gave a theory. They are persisting on it. They have no practical experience that life is coming from matter. That is called vṛścika*-taṇḍula-nyāya. You have no experience in your country. We have got. Sometimes you'll find, scorpion is coming out from the stack of rice. You have seen it? Karandhara: I haven't seen it, but I have heard of the example. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are thinking the rice is..., rice is producing the scorpion. It is called taṇḍula*-vṛścika-nyāya. But rice cannot produce a life. The real fact is a scorpion lays down the egg within the rice, and by the fermentation it comes out. Just eggs. And the small creature comes out. And foolish creatures, they think it that the rice is producing scorpion. That is not possible. So they are putting forward this evolution theory that man is coming from monkey, but no monkey is producing a man. Nobody has seen. There are so many things. They put forward some theory, but it is not fact. New Devotee: The quickest way to knowledge... Prabhupāda: Quickest way to knowledge... That I told you; take the knowledge from the authority. The example I have already given that you cannot make research, search out who is your father. But if you go to the authority, mother, immediately you understand. This is the quickest way. New Devotee: The thing that's tearing me apart is, um... Prabhupāda: But just try to understand this. The principle is that if you receive knowledge from the real authority, that is perfect and quick. And if with your imperfect senses you want to acquire knowledge by searching out, it will never be successful. The modern method is to search out the truth by their imperfect senses. All these scientists, philosophers, they are doing that. They admit that their senses are imperfect. Still, they are trying to go to the perfect by the imperfect senses. This is their defect. They are hoping that "Our imperfectness will be perfect by this research work." That is not possible. Imperfectness will remain ever imperfect. Prajāpati: They glorify such imperfections, Śrīla Prabhupāda, by saying... Prabhupāda: Unless they glorify their imperfection, how they can stand? (laughter) They have no standing. If they do not glorify, then they are proved rascals. There will be no argument. They'll have to accept that "we are rascals." Therefore they have to glorify. The glorifying society... That is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. The glorifying society is consisting of ass, camel, hog, and what is the other? Devotees: Dog. *Prabhupāda: Dog. So we... śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. They are all ass, camels, dogs, like that and they are praising each other. "Oh, you have discovered this. Oh, how nice you are. (laughter) How nice you are." But we understand the praiser and the praised, both are dogs and cats. That's all. So we don't give any benefit. It is a mutual praising society of cats and dogs, so we don't give any benefit. Now, they can also accuse us in the same way, that "You are also the society of cats and dog, mutual praising society." So... Now, who will judge whether they are right or we are right? Who will judge? Eh? There must be some judgement. Everyone will say that "I am right." But who judges? There must be a judge, that through both side the lawyers is fighting, that "My case is right." Then who will give judgement? There must be one judge. So who is that judge? Prajāpati: śāstra, guru, sādhu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the judge. Therefore we quote from Vedic literatures. As soon as we speak something, immediately quote Vedic literature. That is the way. Karandhara: The trouble is there are so many phony gurus and śāstras. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: There are so many misrepresentations. *Prabhupāda: Because their folly is... They therefore do not take authority. Otherwise they'll be exposed. Yes. śāstra*-cakṣusā. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ [Bg. 16.23]. These are the injunctions. (dog barks) Yes, come on. We have got your punishment. So there is an argument: pala bonatu hoya (?). "I'm not afraid of you. Although I'm, I'm going away, I'm not afraid of you. (laughter) Don't think that I am afraid of you." This is dog business. They'll go, "gow!" and go away, go away. They'll not come forward. Come on. (laughter) [break] Well, our every day is a New Year. Nava-navayauvana. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, the more you advance, you see new year, new year. That's all. Nothing is old. People are seeing that they are simply chanting the old slogan, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: But we are feeling new pleasure in every moment. Take any other chanting, you cannot chant more than few hours. But the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra we can chant perpetually. So unless there is new enlightenment, how we can do that? [break] You can preach here, and then we are starting on the..., by the fourteenth. We shall go together to India. Is that all right? What do you think? Karandhara: Are you bringing your boys over there? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: They're going separate. Karandhara: Oh. Gurukṛpā: If we go the other way it's cheaper. Prabhupāda: Which way? Karandhara: Through New York. Prabhupāda: [break] I cannot go there. You see? As if three hundred miles away. Gurukṛpā: [break] We saw from the plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Gurukṛpā: Forty*-five minutes on the plane from Miami we saw the comet. *Yaśodānandana: It was there for forty*-five minutes. Prabhupāda: Yes, a bad sign... Yaśodānandana: As big as the sky. Prabhupāda: How big? *Yaśodānandana: Big as the sky. It was flashing for forty*-five minutes, this big... Gurukṛpā: Flashing in horizontal directions. Devotee: The four or five first flashes were very, very big and regularly every thirty seconds it was big flash, bigger than lightning, brighter, very bright. Gurukṛpā: Very brilliant. Prabhupāda: One part like this? Gurukṛpā: Yes, very fast. Devotee: Across the sky, shooot, shooot, shooot. Very fast. *Gurukṛpā: About forty*-five min..., we..., it was still going but the plane passed it and it stayed behind. *Prabhupāda: Uh, so, this is a bad sign. Constellation. According to astronomical calculations. Therefore we, we follow the astrology according to the constellation. The child born, everything has connection, the constellation of the star has influence on the child. So therefore the horoscope*-maker takes the calculation of the constellation and then calculate what is his future. This dhūmaketu is described in Daśāvatāra-stotra, dhūmaketum iva kim api karālam. Dhūmaketum iva. Dhūmaketum iva kim api karālam. As soon as there is comet, there will be some disaster. Very great disaster. In our childhood we saw the comet, not this like. That was small comet. Still, the first world war was there declared. That we have seen in 1914. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Halley's comet. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: I think they called it Halley's comet. Halley's comet. *Prabhupāda: Now the... You can expect at any moment disaster in this material world, but the comet is the sign that there will be some great disaster. It is... This material world, in every step there is disaster. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58]. But those who have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, the disaster is not meant for them. Samāśritā ye pada*-pallava-plavam. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām. So how big it is? Gurukṛpā: Very big. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It was very spectacular. Something like twenty miles. Prabhupāda: Twenty miles? *Yaśodānandana: Maybe at least fifty, sixty miles the four, five first flashes, very big. Let's see. From this tree all the way to the end of this tennis court, all over the sky. Big white flashings. Like big huge incredible lightning. Then afterwards it decreased, and then regularly, every thirty, forty*-five seconds, there was big lightning. Not lightning, big flashes. Very uncommon. *Jayatīrtha: The scientists say that it's eighty*-three million miles long... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: The scientists, they say that it's 83 million miles long, the comet. Prabhupāda: 83 miles? Jayatīrtha: 83 million miles. Karandhara: The tail. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: The tail is 83 million miles. It's going fast, very forward, so it's emitting a tail of gases. Prabhupāda: So who is supplying the gas? (laughter) The Arabians? Jayatīrtha: There's no shortage. Gurukṛpā: When it comes to doing the kīrtana, there's no energy shortage for us. We have unlimited stock. Prabhupāda: By presence of the comet, the atmosphere is also polluted. Last time, what I saw, it was like this. Round and then tail. It is like that? Gurukṛpā: No. Prabhupāda: No. Gurukṛpā: A long streak. It was behind the clouds. There were many clouds, and you could see it through the clouds. Prabhupāda: What is the speed? If it is 83 million miles, very heavy thing, then the speed must be also. Karandhara: Well, the speed is very great. I don't know exactly what it is, but it's millions of miles per hour. Perhaps not millions of miles. Hundreds of thousands of miles per hour. Prajāpati: There must be living entities then on the comet. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Everywhere there are living entities. Jayatīrtha: Scientists are very excited about the comet because they think that it's made of the primordial substance of the universe and they think they'll be able to find out some clue how the solar system was created by examining the comet with their telescopes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Let them talk all nonsense. We say in Bengali, pāgale ki nā bole, chāgale ki nā khāya. The goat can eat everything, and a madman can speak anything. (laughter) Pāgale ki nā khāya..., pāgale ki nā bole, chāgale ki nā khāya. Prajāpati: Are the living entities on the comet, are they very demoniac or intelligent or...? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily demoniac. Two classes of men are always there: intelligent and demon. [break] Karandhara: ...comet. They just discovered it one or two years ago. They said that if it ever passed by the earth before, it was the time of the dinosaurs. Prabhupāda: Dinosaur? Karandhara: Yes. Over fifty thousand years ago. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He cannot say what happened yesterday, and he's speaking fifty thousand years. Is there a statement in any śāstra or his own statement? Karandhara: No, that's by mathematical calculation of the trajectory and speed. Prabhupāda: Oh, mathematics... Karandhara: It's going at a certain speed in a certain orbit. So they calculate that it would complete that orbit once every fifty to two hundred thousand years. Prabhupāda: That is there in astrology, astronomy. That is not discovery. Karandhara: No, actually, one scientist just looked at a telescope and saw it coming. And that's what they call discovery. And of course, he got the comet named after him. Prabhupāda: Who? Karandhara: The scientist. His name was Kahotek. So he discovered it. So the comet is named after him. Prabhupāda: And if it is mentioned elsewhere? Karandhara: I'm sure he'll want to keep his claim. Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: I'm sure he'll want to keep his claim. Prabhupāda: No, if... In some astrological book, if it is mentioned there? Karandhara: Scientists probably won't accept it. They think if they don't discover it, then it's not bona fide. Prajāpati: Unless one of them discovers it in the book. Karandhara: Ah. Yes. Prabhupāda: Ah? Prajāpati: If one of them discovers it in the śāstras, then, oh, they'll... Karandhara: They say they've looked through all the old books and the old records and they haven't found any mention of it. Prabhupāda: I think in the Indian astronomical calendar there must be mention. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: [break] ...effect of comet? Prabhupāda: No, generally we know when there is comet, there is very bad effect. Prajāpati: The comet doesn't really bring the bad effect. It simply is a symptom. Is that it? Prabhupāda: Eh? Prajāpati: The comet doesn't bring the bad effect, it is a symptom. Prabhupāda: No, yes, bring, bring. Prajāpati: It does bring it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: Does such a comet affect consciousness as well as matter? Prabhupāda: Eh? Comet is just like a planet. It is a vehicle carrying so many conscious beings. It is just like if some policeman all of a sudden comes before us, it is to be supposed that someone is criminal, he's searching. Like that. (end) Morning Walk -- January 5, 1974, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...service. Devotee (1): Yes, I did. Prabhupāda: You give me... [break] Devotee (2): He's in the... Parking the car. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...plan for wasting time. (devotees laugh) So the material world means they have got different devices for wasting time, not for utilizing time. Is it correct? Prajāpati: It is considered one of our major problems, leisure time. People are having more time on their hands and they do not know what to do with it. So the government, they're scratching their heads inventing things for people to waste their time. *Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. Because they are rascal, they do not know how to utilize time, what is the aim of life, where you have to go. These things they don't know. So they must waste time. So it is the... Just like child. He wastes time in so many ways. It is the duty of the parents, guardians, to cr..., synchronize his activities so that he may not waste his time. It is the duty of the guardians. Similarly these rascals, they're wasting time. You have to engage them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then their time will be utilized. [break] Devotee (3): ...in Holland wasn't any fuel Sundays, and the people could go outside with the cars, and then the statistics say that the fight between the family increased so, so much the police went... They went to the houses to, just to separate the people because there was fighting so much because they didn't have anywhere to go on Sundays. (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: Just see. It has become a problem, ah, to remain at home. [break] Prajāpati: ...society, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it would train up brahminical qualities. But in the people in general, how can we engage them also in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? How can we provide them a means to use their leisure time to perfect their lives? Prabhupāda: Just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is it very difficult? Prajāpati: To get them to do it is difficult. Prabhupāda: Yes, let's call them in our temple, be practiced. Therefore our society is the most important society. We can teach people how to utilize time properly and be perfect. [break] Prajāpati: ...well you utilize your time, Śrīla Prabhupāda, every second is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. And our advanced Godbrothers, they've also learned this art. The vast majority of us, we haven't quite got the hang of it yet. *Prabhupāda: It is practiced. As by practicing you become a first*-class drunkard, similarly by practicing you can become a first-class Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is equal. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā [Bg. 8.8]. Abhyāsa. Practice. In association the practice is very easily done. Just like you are saying, that you are engaged. So by association you can learn also. The association is very important. [break] Prajāpati: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda. You're very, very regulated, almost down to the minute in your activities. This is also a big help in utilizing time? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Avyartha kāla tam(?) That explains the... This is... This should be our aim. Not a single moment is wasted. If you try that "How I'm wasting my time," then you'll utilize it. You should always remember. Not a single moment should be wasted. That is advised by Rūpa Gosvāmī. Avyartha kāla tam. Vyartha means spoiling. Avyartha means not spoiling. Avyartha kāla. He should be always conscious that "I am not wasting my time." Then it will be done. Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...on the street. The bums, they also utilize, that they want to see that not a moment is wasted without drinking. (devotees chuckle) Yes, they actually do that. They want to drink only, twenty*-four hours. As soon as the bottle is finished, they're finding somebody who will pay one dollar, and purchase another small bottle. They're doing only business this. [break] Prajāpati: ...the holy name and devotional service. Prabhupāda: Ah? Prajāpati: You want us to be drunkards on the holy name, and be like those... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. There is eight kinds of transcendental transformation... (pause) (devotees chant japa) [break] Prajāpati: ...foolish play tennis, and the lazy foolish they play golf. (Prabhupāda laughs) [break] Prabhupāda: ...less dangerous than the active foolish. (devotees chant japa) [break] *Prajāpati: In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is indicated by Śrī Kṛṣṇa that when we approach a bona fide spiritual master our relationship is twofold. We render service and then we also make inquiry. Prabhupāda: Yeah. Prajāpati: Now, you have answered all our inquiries so thoroughly in our books that to make inquiry at this point seems like..., you've already answered all the questions. So how may we... What is the proper relationship at that point to make inquiry? Devotee (4): Read the books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read the books, yes. Why I'm working so hard? Read the books. [break] ...don't find him in the class also. Devotee (4): Who should, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Śrutakīrti. Devotees: (indistinct) Devotee (5): He got married yesterday. Yaśodānandana: I heard yesterday he was married. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yaśodānandana: He went to officially. I... We tried yesterday to convince him, but he would not listen. Prabhupāda: Officially he's married now. Devotee: Yes. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...seen that one who is married, he's lamenting, and who is not married, he's also lamenting. Is it not? Ah? One who is married, he's thinking, "Why did I marry? I would have remained free." He's lamenting. And who is not married, "Oh, I did not accept wife. I would have been happy." (laughs) (Hindi) There's a Hindi... It just like (Hindi). One who has eaten, he's also lamenting, and who has not eaten, he's also lamenting. [break] Tṛpyanti neha... That is said in Sanskrit. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Kṛpaṇā, by one's sex life he gets some children and he's... As soon as there is child, there is suffering. The child is suffering and the parents also suffering to take care. So, again he begets another child. Therefore it is said tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Behind this child-producing there is so much difficulties and trouble. He knows that. But again pro... Doing the same thing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Therefore a sane person, kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Therefore one who is dhīra, one who becomes sober, he tolerates the sensations, itching sensations. It is after all itching sensation. So one who can tolerate the itching sensation, he saves so much trouble. But one who cannot, he's implicated, immediately. Either illicit or legitimate, it is trouble. Yan maithunādi... That is the only happiness in this material world. That is only happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. One who wants to remain in this material world, his only happiness is sex life. He has no other happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. And that is very abominable, tuccham happiness. What is this happiness? But they cannot understand. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Itching, between the two hands. It produces so many bad results, but he's not satisfied. "All right, I've done once, that's all right. One children is all right, one or two." But no, then contraceptive, abortion, so many things. But the māyā is so strong, it will induce, "Yes, do this." Again implicated. [break] Becoming master of the dog, he has become servant of the dog. Prajāpati: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just see practically. A man keeps the dog to give him protection when he'll be attacked by somebody. But to wait for that time he has to give twenty*-four-hour service to the dog. (dog barking) Devotee (1): I think he knows you're talking about him. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (1): I think the dog knows you're talking about him. Prabhupāda: He knows everything. [break] Prajāpati: Everything looks brand new, looks very different. Prabhupāda: Ah? Prajāpati: This is the first time we've gone this direction, everything looks different, looks like a total different place. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is material life. We are rounding sometimes this way, sometimes that way, and we are thinking "new." (devotees laugh) Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. In this way you are wandering all over the universe. Find out something new. But there is nothing new. Everything is old. [break] ...a living entity is offered change of the body. You see? When he becomes fatigued of this life, "It's so troublesome"*-old men generally think like that. So he has to change another, another new body, child. Since born he is taken care, he thinks "Now, I have got so comfortable life." And again becomes old, disgusted, so he cannot live disgusting, therefore Kṛṣṇa is so kind: "All right, change body again." Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. The business is the same, but changing body gives some relief. Just like these men, the business is they're wasting time by changing, wasting time at home, come to the golf club. That's all. The business is the same-wasting time, either here or there. Kṛṣṇa is giving so much facilities. Sometimes, "All right, you become tree." "All right, some, become a serpent," "All right, you become a demigod," "All right, you become a human being," "All right, you become king," "You become a cobbler," "You go to the heavenly planets," "Go to the hellish planets." Varieties is there. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He's changing varieties, atmosphere of life. But he's packed up in this material world. That freedom... He's asking for freedom, but he does not know the freedom is the shelter of Kṛṣṇa. That he'll not accept. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has arranged so many varieties. In disgust the Māyāvādīs, they want to make the varieties variety-less, nirviśeṣa. And the Buddhists they want to make it zero. But that is also not possible. Remain zero for some time. Again he will want varieties. Big, big Māyāvādī sannyāsī, they preach so much brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, but again they come to the political work, social work. Simply remain as brahma, "I am brahma," you cannot remain for many days. Then he has to accept these material varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment, so therefore our proposition is "Come to the real variety, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then your life will be successful." Prajāpati: The Māyāvādīs, they not only misunderstand the nature of the Absolute, they misunderstand the function of the jīva. Prabhupāda: Yes. When one misunderstands, he misunderstands everything. One who commits mistake, he can commit mistakes in so many ways. They want to merge into the Absolute. They think that there is no variety, to avoid this variety. Ah? Just like sometimes one is suffering from some disease, they commit suicide. He thinks, "I'm suffering. If I commit suicide, then everything will be stopped." But he does not know that by committing suicide he'll increase another set of varieties of miserable conditions of life. He'll become ghost. And becoming ghost, you cannot enjoy anything grossly. The subtle body will create disturbance. Therefore ghost creates disturbance. He hasn't got gross body to enjoy. They're ghostly haunted; therefore a male ghost haunts over woman, woman ghost haunts over man. You know that? It so happens. Ghostly haunted. Yaśodānandana: In the New York temple they had a ghost upstairs. Prabhupāda: Ah? Yaśodānandana: The New York temple in Brooklyn... Prabhupāda: Aha. Yaśodānandana: This is, this was the old house which was used by nuns. And in the upstairs floor, on the complete top, there used to be some nuns that were dying there, very old nuns. And when they moved into the temple there was ghosts, still there, still there is there. There's one room, it still comes. Prabhupāda: Comes? Yaśodānandana: Yes. The ghost comes sometimes. They chant and put incense. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? But she does not go away? Or does not do any harm? Gurukṛpā: They don't let anyone sleep in that room. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: Because everyone is haunted. There's many people have seen the ghost. Prabhupāda: Ah. Yaśodānandana: Many devotees. Prabhupāda: But ghost cannot remain where there is chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] In India, all collections should be utilized for Vṛndāvana temple. I shall personally supervise. So bring all collection to me. Devotee: When we go to India. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...who has got (indistinct). Devotee: The Rose Bowl. Satsvarūpa: Rāmeśvara said he had the figures, but I have to get them from him. [break] *Prabhupāda: That is human life. Your choice, make your choice, which way. Again death or deathlessness. Stop death from you. This is human life. The karmīs, jñānīs, yogis, they're trying for death. There will be death. But for the bhaktas, devotees, there is deathlessness. Punar janma jayāya. For conquering over next birth. Rascal civilized man does not know what is next life, how death can be stopped. Nothing else. Big, big scholars of Bhagavad*-gītā, they do not understand. The so-called scholars, they do not understand. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Yad gatvā na nivartante [Bg. 15.6]. They do not understand. They say, "What is this?" They do not understand. [break] Bali Mardana: ...people could not enjoy so much in this life, they worry more about the next life. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bali Mardana: When people realize they cannot enjoy so much in this life, they worry more about what is going to happen to them in the next life. Prabhupāda: No, how does... They do not know what is next life? Bali Mardana: They don't know. Prabhupāda: They make it zero. Therefore, closing the eye. "There is no next life. Finished. There is no next life." In that way they're satisfied. Just like the rabbit. There is danger, enemy, he closes his eyes. He thinks there is no danger. (devotees laugh) So these rascals are like that. Because they cannot accommodate that this life is so troublesome, again, next life... So that they can realize. Next life means again troublesome; that's why they sometimes commit suicide. They think that after suicide it will be zero, so no trouble. These are all ignorance. Karandhara: In psychology that's called repression. Prabhupāda: Repression. Karandhara: Taking something which is a fact, but refusing to believe it, pushing it out of your mind, repressing it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: There is a philosophy called Stoicism. They believe they... This life is meant to suffer, so they should just become very sturdy to suffer a great deal. Prabhupāda: So sturdy or not sturdy, you have to suffer. How you can check? We cannot change by simply... Becoming sturdy... Bali Mardana: No, stoic. Prabhupāda: Ah. What is that? Bali Mardana: It's a philosophy, a school of philosophy, stoic. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. What is their conclusion? Bali Mardana: That the world is very, is full of suffering... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: ...so they become very sturdy to bear the suffering. Yaśodānandana: Emotionless. *Prabhupāda: So one who can suffer without any protest, he's first*-class man. Bali Mardana: (laughs) Yeah. Prabhupāda: That means they do not know how to stop suffering. Bali Mardana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: The... Here is one class, they're trying to become very strong to tolerate suffering, and other philosophies, they're making everything zero. There is no question of not suffering, but making zero. No suffering, nor neither suffering. Suffering or not..., both of them abolished, dismissed. This philosopher is... "This suffering cannot be dismissed. Therefore you be strong to tolerate it." Other philosophers they say, "There is suffering, so make it zero." But both of them have no information that there is real life where there is no suffering. Still there is life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is life, but no suffering. Bali Mardana: They're like owls. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Bali Mardana: There's a river. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...duḥkha*-nivṛtti. Ultimately, stop of all sufferings. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Simply ānanda. Dancing with Kṛṣṇa, rāsa dance. Supposing if there is such life-dancing and eating and chanting, no suffering. So would anybody deny that? Is there any such fool? Bali Mardana: Yeah, they're all denying. Prabhupāda: Ah? Bali Mardana: They deny. Just like the Puritans... Prabhupāda: No, no. Deny... You deny or accept, that is the... Suppose there is such life where you can simply dance, eat and live eternally, happy life. Would you not like to accept it? Devotee (2): Yes, of course, anyone would. Prabhupāda: Ah? Devotee (2): Anyone would like to accept that. Prabhupāda: You see? That we are giving. Devotee (2): But they think no such thing would exist. Prabhupāda: They think, may think, but it is theoretical. Supposing there is such life, would you not accept it? You may believe, not believe. That is another chapter. First of all, this is our proposition, that there is a life like this. Would you like? So who would say "no"? Everyone will say, "Yes, I like." It is a question of understanding. There is such life, but because he is disappointed at being cheated, cheated, cheated, he thinks, "Here is also another cheating." Just see. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness preaching means to convince them that there is life like this. That is propaganda. Bali Mardana: What would convince them that it is simply not another cheating? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is cheating, it is fact. Bali Mardana: But what would convince them of that? What qualities? Prabhupāda: Just see example, our. We are chanting, dancing, and eating nicely. What you are doing? You are simply talking nonsense. There is no peace in your life. And see our devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the proof, practical proof. Yaśodānandana: Practical proof that they cannot get purified. Prabhupāda: Ah? Yaśodānandana: Even though they have big posts... *Prabhupāda: No, either purify or... You come with us and you will be purified. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, rādhā*-kṛṣṇa bolo saṅge calo, ei-mātra bhikhā cāi. We don't want anything from you. You, I shall give you eating. I shall give you everything. You simply come with me and chant. This is our propaganda. We don't say that "You do this, do that." We don't do anything. Simply come with us and chant. Bali Mardana: Just like the Catholic church, in different places around the world they feed the people. Prabhupāda: Ah. Bali Mardana: But we cannot only... If we not only feed them, but give them chanting and dancing... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: ...they will accept it as superior. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Actually we can see that happening very practically. At Spiritual Sky many big, big businessmen they come, and they see how these boys are making money and yet they are singing and dancing all the time. (laughs) Prabhupāda: This is practical. It's practical. Therefore in India we are considered as the richest community. They was a question in Parliament, "Wherefrom these Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they get their money?" And the Parliament would reply, Home Member, that "They get money by distributing literature." This is the reply. This is recorded in the Parliament, Indian Parliament. Hṛdayānanda: Delhi. Prabhupāda: So if you simply push on our literature, then our movement is going, you must know. It is really going forward. And there will be no scarcity. You'll get everything. [break] Our neighbors they inquire, is it not? That, "You are living so happily, where do you get money?" Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: The storekeepers, they inquire. They're envious, that "How these people enjoying life without earning, without working hard?" Now whole Bombay is surprised when you purchased this land. Bali Mardana: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: So much fighting was there. Immediately I went and purchase and everything stopped. (devotees laugh) They are surprised. This man, they... You know there are two very stubborn parties who have cheated. Chaganlal, he advanced fifty*-one thousand as advance, and when there was question of settlement, so he came, he wanted that "If you give me three lakhs, then I'll compromise." So I was prepared to pay him three lakhs. So that Mr. Ganotra, Mayor, I induced him just to make settlement. Then down he came-two lakhs twenty-five thousand. Then asked Mrs. Nair, "Now you'll pay this..." Where I have got... If he takes all money, then what shall I get? Then I had to settle with her how much he will pay. So she came from one lakh to one lakh, forty thousand. So what is the balance? *Bali Mardana: Sixty. Sixty... Eighty*-five thousand. *Prabhupāda: Ah? Eighty*-five. So I said, "Yes, I'll pay it. Settle up. The balance I'll pay." Eighty-five thousand. The other man, what is called? Ratna Parik? Karandhara: Chaganlal. *Prabhupāda: That Chaganlal this, I pay him extra eighty-five thousand. That is also black. No more white. So the black money was paid in this way, that the money was counted and it was put in a handbag, and it was locked by him. So the key was with him, and the bag was with me. As soon as court accepted the agreement, then I handed over, "Take this bag." Then again this Ratna Parik, he first of all proposed twenty thousand to sell that house. Then when I went there, he knew that he's settling at any cost, he said, "Now that twenty thousand was cost formerly. Now things have gone very high, I cannot sell." So he knows that we are eager to purchase. Then I said, "Then what do you want to do?" "Now I want thirty thousand." "All right, yes. Take it." I did not argue. In this way I settled up. And our Girirāja's father appreciated that "It is better a bad settlement than to prolong the case." So I took this policy. It is bad settlement, from twenty thousand to thirty thousand. But settled out. "I give you 85,000 black." But one thing I gain*-that by cancelling the agreement, their proposal was that increase the price, twenty lakhs from fourteen lakhs. That was the arrangement between the attorneys. They cancelled the agreement and take twenty lakhs from him, and the balance should be divided by..., amongst us. That was the agreement. So that addition of twenty lakhs I satisfied Mrs. Nair by fourteen lakhs fifty thousand. Bali Mardana: Saves 500,000, lakhs. Prabhupāda: Yes. The attorneys were settling at seventeen lakhs, but by Kṛṣṇa's grace I was able to settle up fourteen lakhs fifty thousand. Bali Mardana: You were able to convince her to settle up for less. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: This was white? Prabhupāda: Ah? Yes, fourteen lakhs fifty thousand white. Bali Mardana: She must've been very surprised to receive the money, such a large payment. Prabhupāda;: Yes. [break] ...only ten lakhs. Bali Mardana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then Karandhara sent... How much you sent? Karandhara: Excuse me, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: What you sent? Karandhara: Sent twenty thousand. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand. That was... Not two lakhs, nowadays. Eight rupees. About one lakh sixty thousand. Then we had about three lakhs. In this way, somehow or other, we paid seven, more than sixteen lakhs. Black, white, everything. Gurukṛpā: For Kṛṣṇa anything can be done. Prabhupāda: She was to be paid fourteen lakhs fifty thousand, then stamp duty two lakhs... Sixty thousand or six thousand? Then registration fee... Oh, it was very expensive. [break] Devotee (2): ...that at the end of this month the United States will be destroyed by the comet, the Kahutek comet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their demonic principles will be destroyed. They'll take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Devotees: Jaya, haribol! Prabhupāda: What do they say... After destruction, then what is next? Devotee (2): Oh, they all move to Mexico and Canada, so they wouldn't be in the way of the destruction. They don't know what's going to happen after that. Prabhupāda: So at the time of danger they'll go away. Very good. (devotees laugh) Bali Mardana: Lord Jesus came to save the fallen souls... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: ...they are all running away. *Prabhupāda: They are so good Christian that at the time of danger, they're all going away to Canada. Just see*-afraid of death, even though they are preaching themselves, priest, they are also the same common man, afraid of death. And if we people keep to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are not afraid of death. For going from one place to another, that's all. Going home, nobody becomes afraid going back to home. He becomes pleased. [break] You avoid death, there is no death. Viṣaya.(?) If we simply practice this, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma... No more death. Finished death. This is a fact. [break] ...or do something for Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste time, single moment. Then your... No more death. Because this is deathless condition. And the changing of the body, that is momentary, that is all. Bali Mardana: So our service is deathless. Prabhupāda: Ah? Deathless... Bali Mardana: Devotional service. Prabhupāda: ...yes, this is deathless position. Bali Mardana: But if we stop serving... Prabhupāda: You admit or not, theologian? (devotee laughs) Eh? Eh? Or you have got anything to say? This is deathlessness. Bali Mardana: Because the soul is acting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ah? Karandhara: Looks like it may start raining a bit, Prabhupāda. We may cut over here. Prabhupāda: All right. Karandhara: And I can bring the car over. Prabhupāda: No, no, what is that? We shall not die. (devotees laugh) Bali Mardana: We will melt. Prajāpati: The soul cannot be wet. *Prabhupāda: No, it is pleasant. Viśvaṁ pūrṇa*-sukhāyate. For a devotee, everything is very happy. There is no unhappiness. Any condition, they are happy. Viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate. For nondevotees everything is a problem. (devotees laugh) And for devotee everything is happiness. That is the difference. Devotees: Jaya. (thunder sounds in background) *Prabhupāda: This is fact. This is not imaginary..., I mean to say... Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. The suffering is due to sinful activities. So a devotee is not acting sinfully; he's fully surrendered... (end) Morning Walk -- January 7, 1974, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...although it appears that he's very stern. But he's friend. Devotee: The criminal thinks that "Oh, he's my enemy." Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: The criminal thinks, "He's my enemy." Prabhupāda: Yes. [Break] They have achieved their advancement of knowledge by seeing a crack in the moon. You know that? Yes. They are now researching, "What is this crack?" For seeing the crack, they spend so much money. Bali Mardana: They are so foolish. Prabhupāda: Just see. Bali Mardana: When I was in Hawaii I gave a lecture at one Catholic college, and the priest in charge, he was asking me if in our philosophy we believe that animals have a soul. He's so foolish... Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: The Christians are so foolish, even though they have big learned positions, they do not understand that the animal also has a soul. Prabhupāda: You told? In that meeting? Bali Mardana: Yeah. Prabhupāda: What did they say? Bali Mardana: They could not deny. They could not say anything. *Prabhupāda: Yes, what is the difference that you say the animals...? How do you say? What is the symptoms of possessing soul? The symptoms of possessing soul is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. The consciousness. The animals have no consciousness? How foolish they are! Bali Mardana: Just to rationalize their sins. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Rational or not rational... *Bali Mardana: No, to rationalize their meat*-eating, they say... Prabhupāda: Yes, to support, yes, their sinful activities. Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: How you can say there is no soul in the animals? What is the reason? What is their reason? Satsvarūpa: At one interview a person said to you, "They do not understand metaphysics, and the human being understands metaphysics." Prabhupāda: Metaphysics. A child also does not understand. So therefore he has no soul? Cut him? They are doing that. They are doing that, so rascal. So do everyone understand metaphysics. Karandhara: No. Satsvarūpa: They should not be killed if they don't understand. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They should not be killed just if they don't understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is that any reason? Devotee: Actually, they have no philosophical basis for that belief that the animal has no soul. It's just speculation. Yes. *Prabhupāda: No philosophy. Simply rascaldom. Simply rascaldom. And that is being preached by the priestly class. Priestly class. Just see the society! What third*-class society! (pause) [break] ...the soul enters after the birth of the child. Eh? Is it not? Therefore killing or abortion is not bad. Devotee: Oh, they say that abortion isn't bad because the child is not fully formed and therefore is not really a life. It's not really alive. Prabhupāda: Just see. Therefore one man who is sleeping, he has no soul. Bali Mardana: No one... They do not believe that generally. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: They admit that they are killing. Prabhupāda: They admit? Bali Mardana: That they are killing the child. But they do not care. 'Cause they don't want to take the trouble to raise it. Gurukṛpā: Just like the rabbit. Prabhupāda: Rabbit philosophy. So therefore, considering from all points of view, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the best in the world. There is no doubt. You must be convinced about it. Otherwise, how you can preach? Bali Mardana: Now is a very ripe time to push forward our philosophy. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Now it is a very ripe time to push forward our philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: I was thinking of taking a full..., large advertisements in New York Times, present our philosophy so that people can read. Everyone will see it. Prabhupāda: No... Now, you... Why don't you publish that...? I have suggested that poster. Karandhara: That poster? Bali Mardana: We have a poster? Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara: It's being worked on. Bali Mardana: I have not seen it. Prabhupāda: Take contribution from public... Bali Mardana: Oh yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: ...for one day's advertisement. And advertise this poster in every paper. You see... Bali Mardana: I want to do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: Also I was thinking to have a large scale propaganda in all the college newspapers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: Specifically. To attract... Prabhupāda: The same, one advertisement. What is the...? Karandhara: "Real leaders of human society." Prabhupāda: Yes. That... You have seen that design I have given? Karandhara: No, I haven't seen it. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is not yet done? Karandhara: No, it's being worked on. Prabhupāda: Hm. You can give him the rough idea. That will be very nice propaganda, to select real leaders of the society. The... We are misled by rascal leaders. That is the difficulty, all rascals. If the society is led by real, learned scholars, then it will be nice. Qualified leaders. That is wanted. Leader means better qualified man to lead others. That is leader. Leader does not mean he is himself a fool and leading other fools. [break] *Bali Mardana: ...the poster could have a coupon for Bhagavad*-gītā to find the real solution... Prabhupāda: No, no. Bali Mardana: So they can purchase? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā there are so many. They'll purchase another rascal's Bhagavad-gītā. Simply you make propaganda that what is real leadership. Then they will inquire and we shall reply. [break] ...so many things. So we may not create any disruption amongst our solidarity. Then things will not make progress. In a big machine, even one screw is slack, the machine stops. You know that? So we should not commit such mistake. "Don't care. It is a small screw." No. Even that small screw can stop the whole machine. [break] ...that we are on the platform of deathlessness. Then we can be careful about falling down. And this is a fact. Bali Mardana: And we will not want to fall down. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is seriousness. Suppose you are going on a plane to Vaikuṇṭha. So your business should be that you may not fall down. The plane may not stop. It is like that. [break] ...Bhāgavata, simply this point is being stressed, that "This is the platform of deathlessness." Bali Mardana: Oh. *Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad*-gītā. [break] Where is that boy? No, not... Oh, you. So you are now living in Mexico? Devotee: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. He's our old student. Bali Mardana: Yeah, from New York. Prabhupāda: From New York, yes. [Break] ...fall. Simply by following the regulations and chanting. That's all. (end) Morning Walk -- January 8, 1974, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...purport of the Bhāgavata. Divā vyartha*-karmabhiḥ. Karmabhiḥ. Divā ca vyartha-karmabhiḥ [SB 1.16.9]. [break] That's all. Karandhara: Oh, that... There is... Let's see. 1968, nineteen sixty..., 1970 there was a lot of rain. But I've never seen it rain four days in a row like this, just all day. Prabhupāda: All day and night. Karandhara: I don't ever recall it raining so long in succession. Last year it didn't rain very much at all. Very little rain. Prabhupāda: Yes. Last year all over the world there was drought. [break] *Hanumān: ...and they had some temples there in Rio Janeiro and San Pablo, and they were followers of Gaurasundara and Siddha*-svarūpa. And I think they're still there. And when I was there they were making kīrtana, and they were chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. In the middle of their kīrtana, they would stop their kīrtana, and they would chant "Jaya jaya Siddha-svarūpa," and "Jaya jaya Gaurasundara." So I could not do anything. I told them it was all wrong and everything, and uh... But there is many, many innocent people who are following. They go there for the first time and they make them chant "Jaya jaya Siddha-svarūpa" and "Jaya jaya Gaurasundara," like this. So we were telling, we were talking with... Prabhupāda: There is no harm in giving "jaya" to Vaiṣṇavas provided they follow the Vaiṣṇava principles. Otherwise, to glorify Vaiṣṇava is not bad. (pause) No, no "jaya" to Mahāprabhu, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu? They chanted? Satsvarūpa: Were they chanting, "Jaya Lord Caitanya, Nityānanda Prabhu?" *Hanumān: Yes, they also chanting, "Bhaja śrī*-kṛṣṇa-caitanya." Yes. But the point is that they were chanting the name of Siddha-svarūpa Gosvāmī and Gaurasundara Gosvāmī, uh, Gaurasundara Adhikārī. Prabhupāda: If one is Vaiṣṇava, then to glorify him is..., that's not... Hanumān: So that's all right. Satsvarūpa: As long as that Vaiṣṇava is following the principles. Prabhupāda: But they should not attempt like that in the presence of their spiritual master. That is not good. When you found this? Satsvarūpa: When did you find they were doing this? *Hanumān: When I was there. I was in Brazil about three months ago. And the only books they had published is a book written by Siddha*-svarūpa Gosvāmī. They had published one book of him, and they were distributing this. Prabhupāda: What is the name of that book? Hanumān: It was an introduction to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, question and answer. Prabhupāda: You have seen that book? Hanumān: Yes, Prabhupāda. I have give to Karandhara. Prabhupāda: So is there anything awkward against our devotional life? Karandhara: I can't read it. It's in Portuguese. Prabhupāda: Oh, it was in Portuguese language. Hanumān: Yes, it's in Portuguese. The only, the only point is that he quotes in this book, he quotes more the books of Gaurasundara than your books. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Hanumān: Gaurasundara has written some books, and so Siddha*-svarūpa, answering the question, quotes from the book of Gaurasundara, and he mentioned, "My professor, Gaurasundara, taught me," and he quotes many, many time. Practically more from the book of Gaurasundara than from your books. (end) Morning Walk -- January 9, 1974, Los Angeles Nitāi: January 9, 1974. Los Angeles. Morning walk. [break] Prabhupāda: ...origin of everything, animate or inanimate. Prajāpati: Jaya. Your lecture this morning was brilliant, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your logic could defeat anybody. (Prabhupāda chuckles) The theological rascals, though, they will not accept any authority except their own mind. They are such nonsense. *Prabhupāda: That is called mano*-dharmī. In Sanskrit it is called mano-dharmī, mental speculators. Prajāpati: It's a disease, actually. *Prabhupāda: And therefore, mental speculators, they have been condemned. Manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. Because they carry on, or they are carried by the chariot of mind, manorathena. Manorathena asati. Manoratha, when you drive on the chariot of mind, you cannot get any fixed idea. Because mind is flickering. Saṅkalpa*-vikalpa. Mind's business is "Accept this, and again reject it." So all these speculators are doing. Somebody is putting forward some theory, and after some years he will himself reject or somebody else will reject. So manorathena, by mental speculation, you remain on the material platform. You cannot get any spiritual idea. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Anyone who is not in the spiritual platform... Spiritual platform means to be a devotee of the Lord. The Māyāvādīs, because they are not devotees of the Lord, they are not on the spiritual platform. They are on the material platform. They are speculating, spirit-"something negation of matter." That's all. That is mental speculation. It is bad. "Good means negation of bad." They are thinking like that. They do not know, in this material world, bad and good are both the same thing. Because it is matter. That they do not know. They think, "This is bad, this is good." But they do not know, materially conceived anything, good or bad, they are the same thing. That they do not know. Bahulāśva: How is bad and good the same thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Just like we are walking on this street. Sometimes we say, "This is very good." And sometimes, "It is very bad." But the street is the same. So how it is good and bad? This is simply mental speculation. Bahulāśva: Sense perception? Prabhupāda: Eh? Mental speculation. When it is dry... So dryness also, sometimes it is, "Oh, it is very dry, bad." And again, say dry, we shall say, "Oh, today is very good." It is simply mental speculation. Devotee: It is like wet stool and dry stool. It is still stool. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. (Chuckles) Yes, that is the example. The dry part of the stool, they say, "Oh, this part is very nice." He forgets that, after all, it is stool. So what is the dry or moist? Just like they are making scientific advancement. But the death is there. So what is the use of your advancement or no advancement? One who has not advanced in science, he'll also die. And you'll also die, advanced. Then what is the good? You cannot protect yourself from death. Then what is the meaning of this "good"? "This is good. This is advancement, and this is not advancement." Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the distinction, the good and bad... Prabhupāda: That is your distinction. You have made such distinction. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that depends on the consciousness of the individual. *Prabhupāda: Relativity, relativity, law of Relativity. What is, what is food for one is death for other, the same thing. So how you can say the food is good or bad? Is it not? "One man's food, another man's poison." So how you can distinguish this is food or poison? One man will say, "No, it is food." Another man will say, "It is poison." So how you'll distinguish? So this good and bad is simply mental speculation. Because it is in the material platform, there is nothing good. Everything is bad. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. In the name of "dharma," so many rascaldom is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. It is not dharma. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: [SB 1.1.2] "This cheating type of religious system is rejected from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam." All so-called religions, they're simply cheating. Cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Everything is cheating. They say, "We are advancing." What you are advancing? The problem, birth-death, is there. So what is the meaning of your advancement? Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. Prajāpati: This is the only means, then, to get off that manorathena. *Prabhupāda: Manorathena, yes. Manorathena means if you remain on that platform, then you have to reject again. Just they are doing, the so*-called scientists, philosophers. They are putting forward some theory, and after some time they reject it. So if you remain on the mental platform, then this business of accepting and rejecting will go on. You'll never come to a conclusion. Therefore one has to rise to the spiritual platform. That is nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. That is eternal, everlasting. Prajāpati: Not a theory. Prabhupāda: No. Yes. Umāpati: They just constantly speculate on the material nature. Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: They speculate on the material nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: And they can never be spiritual. Prabhupāda: No, no. Umāpati: Just always material. Prabhupāda: Number of zeroes never make one. It is zero. You add thousands of zeroes, one after another, the value will be zero. Not one. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there is a theory, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Not theory. It's a fact, that if some number is raised to the power zero, that becomes one. In mathematics. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But I am speaking that you combine millions of zeroes. That will never become one. That I am speaking. Zero is zero. Zero plus zero equal to zero. Zero minus zero equal to zero. Zero multiplied zero, zero. Zero divided by zero, zero. That's all. Where you get...? And by the side of zero, if you bring one, eko brahma, immediately it will become ten. And add another zero, immediately hundred, ten times increased. That one must be there, one God. Then zero increases value. Similarly, this material world is zero, but if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is valuable. Then it is valuable. Prajāpati: But that manorathena, the chariot of the mind, that is never valuable. Prabhupāda: No, it has no value. Prajāpati: The whole western... *Prabhupāda: Manorathena asati dhāvato bahiḥ. By mental speculation, you will remain on this asati, in this temporary field. Asat means "which will not exist." Anything in this material world, you take, that will not exist. Anywhere man can say. The skyscraper building is constructed, but everyone knows that it will not exist. Some day it will fall down. Everyone knows. It will never exist. That is explained by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that "If you think that by combination of matter, life has come, so life was not there before the combination. And this combination will dismantle. So life, there will be no more life. So why these three period you are lamenting? There is life." Because according to this theory-"The combination of matter makes life"-so before combination there was no life, and the combination dismantled, there is no life. So beginning and end no life. Why you are lamenting in the middle? Very good reasoning. Just see. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. Māyā-sukhāya, that illusory, illusory happiness. Māyā-sukhāya. And for that reason, they are making huge, gorgeous arrangement and working day and night, which will be zero. It has begun from zero and it will end into zero. In the middle they are busy. Just see. Therefore vimūḍhān. Hanumān: In your books you say that the world is like a dream. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is dream. Hanumān: How is it a dream? Prabhupāda: Dream, just like last night you had some dream. Hanumān: Yes. Prabhupāda: Well, it has no value. It is gone. And again, this night, when you'll sleep, you'll forget all these things. You'll dream. You don't remember during night, when you are dreaming, that "I have got my house, I have got my wife I have..." You all forget. So it is dream. Hanumān: It is true or is not true? Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is true? You forget at night. Do you remember when you sleep that you have got your wife and you are sleeping on bed? You have gone some three thousand miles away and seeing something else. Do you remember that you have got a place to reside? Hanumān: No. Prabhupāda: So this is dream at night. And night dream, what you saw at night, that is now dream. So both of them dream. You are simply visitor. That's all. You are seeing this dream and that dream. You are, you are fact, but what you are seeing, that is dream. Hanumān: But I have the impression that "This is true, and my dream is not true." What is the dif...? Prabhupāda: No, no. Everything is untrue. How it is true? If it is true, why you forget at night? Why you forget? If it is true. Do you remember at night? Hanumān: No, I don't remember. Prabhupāda: Then? How it is true? As you don't remember the dreams which you saw last night..., That, therefore we say "dream." Similarly this thing, because you forget at night, this is also dream. Hanumān: But I have... *Prabhupāda: This is day*-dream, that is night-dream. That's all. *Bahulāśva: Jaya. Day*-dream and night-dream. And the night-dream, then you perceive that as being real. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bahulāśva: When you dream at night, then you think that is real. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real. You cry... It is dream, but you are crying, "There is tiger, tiger, tiger!" Where is tiger? But you are seeing it is fact, tiger. "I am being killed by a tiger." But where is tiger. [break] ...in dream you are embracing some beautiful girl. Where is that beautiful girl? But actually this is happening. Hanumān: Is it happening? *Prabhupāda: It is happening because there is discharge of semina, night pollution. But where is that girl? Is it not dream? So similarly this is also dream. You are having the effect of truthfulness, but it is a dream. Māyā... Therefore it is called māyā*-sukhāya. The same thing, that at night you are dreaming you are embracing nice beautiful girl, as there is no such thing, similarly, in the daytime also, whatever advancement you are making, this is also like that. Māyā-sukhāya. We are happy, we are dreaming, "This process will make me happy. This process will make me happy." But the whole process is dream only. You are taking this day-dream as reality because the duration is long. At night, when you dream, the duration is for half an hour. And this is for twelve hours, or more than that. That is the difference. It is a twelve hours' dream, and that is half an hour dream. But actually, both of them are dream. And because it is twelve hours' dream, you are taking it as, accepting it as real. That is called illusion. Bahulāśva: Illusion. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are making distinction between animal and ourself, but we're forgetting, we are forgetting, the animal also will die and I will also die. So where is my advancement? Will you remain? You'll also die. So where is your advancement upon animals? That is stated in śāstra: āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānam etat paśubhir narāṇām. Business-eating, sleeping, sex-life and defending*-this is also animal's business. And you are also doing the same. How you are distinct from animal? You'll die. The animal will die. But if you say, "I'll die after one hundred years, and this ant will die after one hour," that does not mean that you are in reality. It is a question of time. Just like this huge universe. It will be all be destroyed. As your body will be destroyed, this will be destroyed, annihilation, dissolution. Nature's way, everything will be dissolved. So therefore it is dream. It is a long duration dream. That's all. Nothing else. But the advantage is that even in this dream you can realize the reality, God. That is the... So if you don't take advantage of this dream, then you are missing. Hanumān: So I am half asleep. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the... Therefore Vedas says, uttiṣṭhata. "Get up, get up, get up!" Jāgṛta. "Become awakened." Prāpya varaṁ nibodhata. "Now you have got the opportunity. Utilize it." This is Vedic injunction. Uttiṣṭhata jāgṛta prāpya varaṁ nibodhata. This is Vedic in... Tamasi mā jyotir gama. These are Vedic injunctions. So we are preaching the same thing, that "Reality is here, Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain in this darkness. Come to this consciousness." That is our preaching. Tamasi mā jyotir gama. [break] ...experienced the sunshine, bright day, and this gloomy day. So when you are in darkness, we must have to admit, "There is light." Because darkness means absence of light. So as we are in the darkness of this material existence, there must be something life of light. That is spiritual world. That is reality. [break] ...ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "Oh, I don't belong to this darkness, darkness atmosphere. I belong to the light atmosphere." That is self*-realization. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Hanumān: ...simultaneously in the dream and not in the dream. So when... Prabhupāda: That is reality, when you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is reality. Hanumān: But I also see all this. Prabhupāda: Eh? That is another thing. On the path of reality, you come. Hanumān: On the path? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a process. When the process is complete, then you'll come to the reality. But that is the process. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. We cannot distinguish now reality and non-reality because the heart is unclean. So we have to cleanse, and then we come to the reality. Svarūpa Dāmodara: For that matter, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one comes to that stage, there is no difference between animate and inanimate. Is that true? Prabhupāda: Highest stage? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Highest stage, everything animate. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So a stone... Even a stone has soul. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Just like this tree. You cut; it does not protest. The consciousness is not developed. That is the... But it has got life. You scientists, you do not believe that stone has also life? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they say it's just matter. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say there's no life there. Prabhupāda: No, there is life. Nitāi: Every stone has life? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, dead stone has no... But there are many mountains, they are increasing. You know, at Benares there is a stone? Tila*-bandhesvara. (?) Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That increases. If you go, see today, and go ten years after, you'll see-take the measurement*-it has increased. They'll go... Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will say that because of the position of the dust particles the size will increase. Even a small... *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is clean. There is no... It is being washed even. Its name is Tila*-bandhesvara. (?) So there is no uncleanliness. Still, the body increases. There is still Tila-bandhesvara. (?) There is temple of Tila-bandhesvara. People go to see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the consciousness is covered there. Prabhupāda: Covered, yes. Dullness means consciousness is covered. You put a child in open air. He'll not feel much cold. You see practically. He'll not feel. Because consciousness is not developed. Animal, they will not feel cold. But we feel. Bahulāśva: But Prabhupāda, there are still such things as dead matter? Prabhupāda: Not dead matter. The soul is there. Bahulāśva: Suppose something, well, something like this shoe that I'm wearing..., *Prabhupāda: It is now dead matter. But when you go, the higher understanding, it is a composition of atoms. So we learn from Vedic śāstra that within the atom there is life. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]. There is, there. If within the atom there is life, then what to speak of anything else. Bahulāśva: That's a jīvātmā? Prabhupāda: No, no. Govinda is there. Bahulāśva: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: When Kṛṣṇa is there, then Kṛṣṇa is there with everything. Kṛṣṇa cannot be alone. Bahulāśva: This is the real science, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vijñāna. Yad vijñāna*-samanvitam. Jñānaṁ parama-guhyaṁ me yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Is it not? Jñānaṁ me... "My knowledge is very confidential and it is full of science." Jñānaṁ parama-guhyaṁ me yad vijñāna-samanvitam. And in the Bhagavad-gītā there is said, "Knowing this knowledge..." Yaj jñātvā neha bhūyo 'nyaj jñātavyam avaśiṣyate. In the Vedas it is said, kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. So this is the way. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything will be known. [break] ...guhyaṁ pavitraṁ paramam idam. Eh? Bhagavad-gītā. Rāja-vidyā, the knowledge, the king of knowledge. [break] Hanumān: Without your mercy, there's no way out of the dream of material life. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Yes. (pause) [break] Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...water is tasteless, but Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste in water." Science says water is tasteless, no taste in water. Prabhupāda: Science says. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: But have you tasted that tasteless water? (laughter) Gurukṛpā: If it is so tasteless, why is it quenching? Karandhara: If someone gives you a glass of water and you drink it, you immediately know what it is. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say the taste of water depends on the amount of chemicals contained in the water. Prabhupāda: That's all right. So that is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. The tastefulness. Tastefulness of water is Kṛṣṇa. Not the water. Bahulāśva: People have such a clouded idea of what is God, Śrīla Prabhupāda. When you explain it, it's very real. Gurukṛpā: Prabhupāda, the other day you mentioned that during the eating activities, during sex activity, there is increase of breathing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Now, when we do the kīrtana, there is much increase of breathing. So what is the difference? Prabhupāda: The difference is that... [Break] ...why your child is less conscious than yourself? Gurukṛpā: Because he's not developed. Prabhupāda: He's also living entity. Why he's foolish, and why you are intelligent? What is the answer? Gurukṛpā: Because the consciousness is more developed. Prabhupāda: Then develop... So you develop your consciousness. Then you will understand Kṛṣṇa. Gurukṛpā: So I must be more fortunate than the other living entities in my body. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: The other living entities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is called, human life is so valuable. You are not cats and dogs. You have got the opportunity to understand God, Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Only by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles Satsvarūpa: We always say that the best way to water the tree is from the root, but he says that the way that nature actually waters is from the top. Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the top water comes? Svarūpa Dāmodara: By evaporation of the ocean. Prabhupāda: And who kept the ocean? You go on. Svarūpa Dāmodara: By nature. Prabhupāda: Then you come to somebody. That is foolishness. Then nature is not ultimate. Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate. Because you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, therefore you say, "Nature." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa says, "Nature is under My control." Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like an equilibrium, Śrīla Prabhupāda. In science it is called equilibrium, means this on and off... *Prabhupāda: It is called cakra. What is that? In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, brahma-cakra, brahma-cakra. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is realization, that in every action there is brahman. The beginning, by eating food grains, you become strong. The animals become strong. Then, when you become strong, you perform yajña, and from yajña, there is cloud, and from cloud, there is rain, and from rain, there is food grains. This is the cakra. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cycle. Prabhupāda: Cycle, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the symptom of material nature. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this yajña means to satisfy the Lord. Yajñārthe karma. So when you miss this yajña, then everything becomes disturbed. When you become godless then the whole thing will be disturbed. And practically also, if you pay income tax, then government arrangement is everything, nicely going on. And as soon as stop income tax, then whole thing... There is no finance, there is deficit, this, that, so many things. So yajña is yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra. Everything should be done for the Yajña, for Viṣṇu. Then everything is in order. In Kali*-yuga, other, costly yajñas are not possible. Therefore yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Saṅkīrtana. But these rascals will not take. If you say that "This simple yajña, you take it. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. All problems will be solved," they will not believe. They will not take it. They are so misfortunate. Śāstra says, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got good brain, they take up this yajña process. Su-medhasaḥ. And another word is alpa-medhasaḥ, less brain substance. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. They are doing all other things, but not yajña. Therefore alpa-medhasām: their brain substance is small. And here is su-medhasaḥ. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. That is the sign of merit: You do something which will produce good result. And if you, cats and dogs, if you simply jump over, what you will do result? That Lilavati Munshi of Bombay, she is the wife of a big man, K. Munshi. So she was asking, "Swamiji, how you made like this?" Everyone is surprised because nobody has done like this. I said that "Because I have taken the proper method, therefore it is done so nicely." The method must be right. It may be simple, but it must be right method. Yaśomatīnandana: She is Gujarati, Lilavati Munshi? Prabhupāda: Ah yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, yes. She invited me this time. Yaśomatīnandana: She is writer, I think. *Prabhupāda: Yes. She is very educated. Now, her husband made very great attempt for publishing book, but there is no sufficient customer. Now the press is going to be sold, and nobody customer. That is letter*-setting press. Now it is obsolete. So they were perplexed. She wanted that I shall purchase. And what shall I do with this press? Letter setting is now abolished. That is not good job now. There must be litho press or, what is called, offset. Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if... Since Kṛṣṇa is the power that gives the demigods the ability to render everything, then why is it recommended in the *Nectar of Devotion* that a Vaiṣṇava should worship Gaṇapati? *Gurukṛpā: When we were just traveling this last time and collecting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, everyday we were offering some incense to Gaṇeśa, and this prayer in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, yat-pāda-pallava... *Prabhupāda: Pallava*-yugaṁ vinidhāya kumbha... Gurukṛpā: We were saying this, saying, "Give us facility to collect nice lakṣmī to use to build the temple in Vṛndāvana." Yaśodānandana: To build the temple for Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma in Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Whatever possible facility is available from any person, we beg for it for Kṛṣṇa's service, not for our personal benefit. [break] ...they forget Kṛṣṇa. They forget Kṛṣṇa. When they go to worship some other demigod, they forget Kṛṣṇa, kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20], because they have got so strong material desires that they forget Kṛṣṇa. That is harmful. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām [Bg. 7.23]. They get some benefit out of the demigod, but that will not stay. Alpavat, er, antavat. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. But if you take Kṛṣṇa, then it is not antavat, it will go on increasing. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it will never end. It will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, increasing. The ocean does not increase, but Kṛṣṇa consciousness is such a great ocean that it increases only. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Candanācārya: Is it not better just to say, "Kṛṣṇa, whatever You decide. Whatever You give me, that I will accept." Like Kuntī. Prabhupāda: Why shall I take from Kṛṣṇa? You should give. Candanācārya: No, I mean. Instead of praying to demigods to give me something, saying, "Whatever you decide Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Oh yes. No. A devotee never prays to Kṛṣṇa. They have to undergo so much trouble; still they never pray to Kṛṣṇa. They know that "Kṛṣṇa will give us ultimately protection. Let us do our duty." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ [SB 10.14.8]. When a devotee is in difficulty, he is not disturbed. He thinks, It is Kṛṣṇa's wish that I should suffer like like this. It is not suffering; *it is my pleasure." Just like when a patient is undergoing surgical operation, there is pain, but he knows, "It is better for me." Therefore agrees, "Yes sir. You go on with your knife." So when you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection," so even in our distressed condition we must know that we are being protected by Kṛṣṇa. We should not be disturbed. Because we create so*-called distress and happiness. Actually this world is distress. Here the so-called happiness is also distress. So why a devotee should be disturbed by distressed condition? Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] Candanācārya: One time you said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not difficult, but to remain determined, that is difficult. Determination is difficult. Prabhupāda: That determination comes by tapasya. Therefore we have got rules and regulation. If you follow the rules and regulation, then you will be determined. Otherwise, you will be victim of māyā. The rules and regulation is there just to keep you fixed up in your determination. But if you don't follow, then you fall down. Just like physician says, "You don't take this along with medicine. You take this." That is rules and regulation. If you follow, then you do not become victim of disease again. If you don't follow, then you... What the physician will do? Candanācārya: But it also requires determination to follow the tapasya. Yaśodānandana: ...you mentioned that the vaiśyas, they are considered to be the capitalists and the śūdras, they are considered to be the Communist. And you mentioned that eventually the communists will take over the capitalists. So how long do you think that will happen? *Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva*-bhūteṣu [Bg. 9.29]. Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; *and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities. Still, if he does not take, then we are not going to see how long he will suffer, how he will stop. Let them do their own business. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all nonsense engagement. Just become My devotee," we say like that. But if somebody does not give, give up, also not, then Kṛṣṇa also does not interfere. Let him suffer. [break] ...how long one suffers. He can stop his suffering immediately, but if he does not take the medicine, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. If Kṛṣṇa withdraws all his sinful activities, then where is the question of suffering? But he will not do. Now, because he is not surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa, so he is suffering from time immemorial, and nobody can say how long he will suffer. He will go on suffering. It cannot stop. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mūḍha: "Rascal." Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. He does not know, by simply surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, everything will be nice. That he does not know. And if you advise, he will not accept. matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. That is explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that "These rascals who have got this idea that 'By adjustment, we shall be happy in this material world,' they will never understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will never understand because their aim is..." That picture we gave in Back to Godhead, anchor? Yes. Their anchor is to remain here and enjoy. That is their main disease. They do not... Just like the Russian astronaut has gone so high, he was seeing, "Where is Moscow?" The anchor is there in the Moscow. Therefore he has to come down. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. So everyone wants to keep this anchor of this material attachment. They say that "Yes, I am ready to accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness, provided Kṛṣṇa gives us so many material..." Just like in Germany. So many women went to pray in the Second World War, "Oh, my husband may come back, my father may come back." But nobody came back. And all of them became atheists. You see? They take Kṛṣṇa, or God, as their servant, not to become servant of Kṛṣṇa, that "I prayed so much, 'Kṛṣṇa, God, give us our daily bread.' And He did not give. Therefore give it up." Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the Vedic explanation of the working principle of the brain, how our brain is working. Prabhupāda: Brain is working, because you living entity, soul, is there. Just like I am typing, and he is typing. I have got the latest mechanical, improved typist, and he has got old, bygone age typist, similarly, according to our karma, capacity, Kṛṣṇa gives us facility. So brain is that facility. Kṛṣṇa gives us. Not that... So far the brain substance is concerned, a dog's brain and your Professor Einstein's brain is the same. His brain, same. But because Professor Einstein is advanced in knowledge, he is working differently. Otherwise, when Einstein, the soul is off from the body, and the dog is off from the body, you will see the brain, equally the same. So this, your scientists, they do not know. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that there are about nine billion cells. They are called neurons. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Just like I have given already. Why nine billion cells are there? Because you can work with it. I have given an electric running on typewriter because I know how to work it. Otherwise, this electric machine and the old electric machine, they are made of the same iron, but if I know how to work it, then I can utilize this machinery. But for a layman, it will be all the same. So that is karma. According to karma, we get a body. The body's machinery is also well*-equipped, as I can work. This is nature's gift. Not that "This brain is first-class, that brain is first-class, er last class." All brain, last class. It is matter. The man who is working, the soul who is working, he is first-class, second-class, third-class. It is said clearly, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati: [Bg. 18.61] "Īśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is situated in everyone's heart." Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā: [Bg. 18.61] "He is offered a yantra, a machine, made by material energy." But that is under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has asked the material energy "Give a good machine; he can work. Good or bad, as He wants, as He wants. That's all. Give him a..." yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. It is all bad. Either this electric machine or that manual machine. They are all matter. So anything material, that is bad. But he wants it; "All right, give it." That is going on. He wants this facility. Now before these motorcars, people were walking on foot. All business was being done. But we wanted a machine like that, so Kṛṣṇa has given us brain to manufacture. That's all. But what you will benefit by this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all this nonsense proposal." But they will not do that. They will create another nonsense desire. That desire should be stopped. That is desireless. Because they will go on simply proposing some nonsense desire... That is their material existence. Now, they have discovered this, made this motor, nice... Now there is problem, no power, gasoline. And if the gasoline is stopped, then your whole endeavor is gone. So this is their business. They are manufacturing something which will entangle him more and more. That he does not know. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have reduced the output of big cars because previously they were making big cars. Prabhupāda: Just see. Now how the business will... Another problem. The factory... How will so many men...? So they will create problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all this nonsense desire." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The airlines have laid off so many thousands of people because there isn't enough gasoline to fly all the aeroplanes. So they are just laying off people. They are becoming unemployed now. Prabhupāda: Yes, one after another, problem will come. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Coming to the brain again, the, some people are working. Why some people are insane? For example, the mechanism of working the brain, some of the chemical pathways, they say, change, block. So some people become insane. Prabhupāda: Insane? Then he cannot work. That's all. Even if I give you good machine... Just like I do not know how to work on it, so similarly, if one does not know how to work, then it is useless machine. Karandhara: They are thinking that by certain types of chemicals they can correct things like depression and unhappiness. They say it's all just a chemical situation in the brain. Prabhupāda: But that they propose so many nonsense things, but they cannot do anything. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are making experiments on rats now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. They will go on experimenting life after life. That is their foolishness. Gurukṛpā: Next life they may have to experiment in a dog's body. Prabhupāda: Yes. And some of our politicians, he has become a dog. Yes. Nehru. He has become a dog, in Stockholm. Yes. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told that to my mother and she would not believe it. You know, people think that if someone is a great politician or something, he can never become something like this. Prabhupāda: Then why the politician dies? If he has got so good brain, let him live forever. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: People have so much blind faith in people like Nehru and Gandhi. *Prabhupāda: Jawaharlal Nehru did not want to give up his Prime Ministership unless he was collapsed. So why he did not live if he is so intelligent? And Kṛṣṇa says, if you have to believe Bhagavad*-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. "He has to accept another body." So why you should disbelieve that he has accepted a dog's body? Because the acceptance of body is not your business. It is the business of higher nature. Daiva-netreṇa. So if the daiva likes that "You must take this dog's body," how can you refuse it? You cannot refuse. *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday in the paper I saw a picture. Nixon had his sixty*-first birthday, and he had a big cake made, and he offered the first bite, the first lick to his dog. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. That is stated in the Bhagavad... ārto 'rthārthī. He is in great distress. Now he is taking shelter of God. Ārto 'rthārthī. Then he is good at least. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Ārtaḥ. Ārtaḥ means very much distressed. He is very much distressed than all the Americans. *Gurukṛpā: He had a cake for his sixty*-first birthday. He gave the first bite to his dog, d-o-g. Prabhupāda: Oh, not God? Devotees: No, no, dog. (everyone laughing) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dog has become his God then. Prabhupāda: Then why he should not become dog? Become yaṁ yaṁ vāpi... He has great love for dog, and it is said that yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajati [Bg. 8.6], at the time of death, he will think of dog and he will become dog. This is... Yaśodānandana: One time I asked one Indian man, "Why is it that people beat the dogs in India?" He says, "Because the English people were ruling for so long. Now they have taken birth as dogs. We beat them." Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In America taking care of the dogs and cats is a very big business. It's a very big business. Karandhara: They even have cemeteries. Candanācārya: They buy ten thousand dollar necklace for their dog. Prabhupāda: Just see how much attracted. Candanācārya: Yes, when they die, they leave all their money to the dog. Prabhupāda: So why they refuse to become a dog? Why they refuse to become a dog? Karandhara: Some of them would like to become. Umāpati: Some of them think dogs and cats are more intelligent than people. Prabhupāda: Intelligent, ant is also intelligent than any human being. So they live within the hole of wall, and there is no scarcity. Can you become like that? You live within your apartment and there is no scarcity. Wherefrom he gets food? They are more intelligent than human being. Everyone has got some specific talent, either human being or cats and dogs or ants, everyone. Just like the vultures, they go four miles, five miles above and they can find out where is a corpse, where is a dead body. But you cannot do that. You see? Immediately pounce on it. Hundreds of vulture will come. Did you not see it? So they are intelligent more than human being. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called acintya. Every living entity has some special quality. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- January 11, 1974, Los Angeles Nitāi: January 11, 1974. Morning walk. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...by reading the books, he'd understood that we should become completely desireless. So he wanted more explanation. And in the car coming out Śrīla Prabhupāda just explained that our desire can't go away because that's the symptom of the living entity. We have to have some desire. But real desirelessness means that you have no more material desire. Material desire: someone is always desiring from God, "Give me this, give me this." But when we become purified, then our desire is that "Kṛṣṇa, please take me. Please take me. Whatever service I can render, please accept it." But when one has not enough information, then he desires... His idea of desirelessness is to become like a dead stone. Simply to... Because desire causes suffering and it's bad, material desire, therefore let me simply stop it and become... That will be desireless. But that is not, that state is not possible because our symptom of life is to have desire. So we answer him in this way, to become purified and simply serve Kṛṣṇa all the time. Not that we stop any activities. Prabhupāda was saying he is working day and night. So you cannot become absorbed in nothing. In order to become purely desireless, you have to have some activity that will always... There is a place, there is a plane of spiritual desire, spiritual activity. So there's... (pause) Prabhupāda: What do you have to say about this? Do you understand, desireless and desireful? Satsvarūpa: People some... Pseudo transcendentalists, they sometimes criticize us like that. They say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, you're just too active." They're think that we're fruitive, always running around, always trying to sell books, always very active. That's because they don't understand that desirelessness. They talk like that, and then they'll smoke a cigarette the next moment as they criticize us. They say, "You should not have to do anything if you're transcendental. Why do you have to work so hard?" And then they'll show that they have some very gross desire. (pause) [break] Prabhupāda: ...therefore they see that this, their conception of Kṛṣṇa, there is mother, there is father, there is friend-"So what is this? Here also we see the mother, father, friend. So how they become free?" They cannot understand. Their brain is so poor they cannot understand. Therefore they: "It is also māyā. To think of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme, having father, mother, friends, playing pastimes, this is also māyā." Therefore they are called Māyāvādīs. They cannot conceive that in the spiritual world exactly the same things there are, but the position is different. That is absolute, without any designation. Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Huh? Candanācārya: Also this morning you said that we should try to only love Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Candanācārya: And nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Candanācārya: But if we love our godbrothers, is that also loving Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Because they are of, of Kṛṣṇa. What are your godbrothers? They are Kṛṣṇa's servant. So if you do not love your godbrothers, that means you reject your part of Kṛṣṇa. Candanācārya: So also our children, like that? Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Candanācārya: Also... *Prabhupāda: Yes, if you love children for making them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is loving Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you help... What is our movement? Why I have come to your country? Because to make you Kṛṣṇa conscious. So there is love of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why what is the business, I have come to you? I have no business. Because I love Kṛṣṇa, I want to see all, everybody in the world to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise why in this old age we are trying so much? Similarly, if you love your children to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then produce hundreds of children and make them. That is love of Kṛṣṇa. And if you make them cats and dogs, then one children producing is also sinful. That is also sinful. But if you can make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then produce hundreds of children. That is Kṛṣṇa's love. The Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt. "One should not become father, one should not become mother..." na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum, "...if he cannot deliver the children from the imminent hands of death." That is the condition. So if you cannot make... Death cannot be avoided unless one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you cannot make your children Kṛṣṇa conscious and stop their death, birth and death process, then don't become a father. This is the injunction. And if you can actually do that, then become father of hundreds children. This is the condition. If you cannot make your children... If you can make, that is love of Kṛṣṇa. Because unless you love Kṛṣṇa, why you should be interested to make others Kṛṣṇa conscious? Let them go to hell. Why you should be so much working hard to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious? Unless you love Kṛṣṇa? This is the sign of love." I love Kṛṣṇa, but I do nothing for Kṛṣṇa." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Therefore I said that our Guru Mahārāja's brother, he criticizes Guru Mahārāja. But what he has done for Kṛṣṇa? And what my Guru Mahārāja has done? Unless my Guru Mahārāja had produced me, how this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going all over the world? And what he has done? Simply criticizing is no use. We want to see practical. Do you understand or not? Candanācārya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You were also given the equal chance. Prabhupāda, my Guru Mahārāja, sat down at Māyāpura. But you were given the place of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's birth place. What, what you have done? It is still jungle. And what is Māyāpura there? All Americans are building a palatial building. So simply by criticizing, one does not become a very confidential devotee. Where is the action? What he has done? That is required. Phalena paricīyate. [break] ...everything. Unless Kṛṣṇa gives opportunity, nobody can serve Kṛṣṇa also. But he gives opportunity to the proper person. That is everywhere. If you want to become manager of a firm, the proprietor of the firm will see whether you are able to do that. Then he will give the chance. "Yes." This is reciprocal. Just like this śloka we were studying today. Kṛṣṇa becomes sārathi. Does Kṛṣṇa go to become sārathi of a rascal and fool? He becomes sārathi of Arjuna. That has to be seen. And without any qualification: "Kṛṣṇa, become my sārathi." Kṛṣṇa's not so easy. First of all qualify. First deserve, then desire. First deserve, then desire. So how a Kṛṣṇa conscious person can be desireless? The first is desire. "I desire to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is the beginning. Then Kṛṣṇa will give you chance as you deserve. This is the process. And that is explained: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. When you become completely desireless for anything material, then bhakti begins. That is desirelessness. Desirelessness means when becomes free to desire anything except Kṛṣṇa. That is desirelessness. Desirelessness means not to desire anything material. That is desirelessness. Their Māyāvādī philosophy that "Everything is māyā, and therefore Kṛṣṇa is māyā." That is called Māyāvādī. They do not know the distinction between māyā and reality. Everything māyā. Therefore they are called Māyāvādīs. Gurukṛpā: Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So Kṛṣṇa is also mithyā. That is their philosophy. And therefore in the Bhāgavata it is beginning: paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Satyam, not mithyā. Mithyā you can reject. Unless you find out paraṁ satyam. But that they do not know, what is paraṁ satyam. Therefore Bhāgavata gives: oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. (pause) The word is anyābhilāṣitā. Anya*-abhilāṣa. Anya means "other than Kṛṣṇa." Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], being completely freed from any other desires, jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam... [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Jñāna, the jñānīs, they also desiring liberation. The jñānīs, they have got desire. How they are desireless? Because they are aspiring after mukti. The yogis, they are aspiring after siddhi. Karmīs, they are aspiring after better condition of life. So these things should be completely free. Then he's desireless. If you are desiring mukti, where is your desirelessness? Just see. How they are bluffing! They want to become mukta, and still, they say "desirelessness." Here is your desire. Just see the defect. Eh? Why you are desiring mukti? Gurukṛpā: Then they argue that you also want to, you desire to serve Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say desirelessness means to desire for Kṛṣṇa. That is desirelessness. Even if you... We are not after mukti. We, we can go to the hell to serve Kṛṣṇa. Gurukṛpā: Mama janmani janmanīśvare... *Prabhupāda: Ah! Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahai... [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. That is... There is no question of desirelessness. We desire for Kṛṣṇa. That is desirelessness. Just like a diseased man, if he desires for healthy life, is that bad thing? To desire for further disease, that is desire. That is bad. Therefore I say, you cannot give up desire. That is not possible. You have to purify your desires. But when you desire for Kṛṣṇa, that is desirelessness. To become free from disease, that does not mean you have to stop eating. In the diseased condition, you are eating. As soon as you want to desire, that "Let me, give me this nice food," but you cannot eat on your diseased condition. It will be tasteless. You simply desire, but you cannot enjoy. But same you, man, when the disease is gone, you enjoy that same food very nicely. When you are free from disease, you just ask for rasagullā. You'll taste it. But when you are diseased, the same rasagullā will not be tasteful. That is the condition. The desire which gives you happiness, that is wanted. The desire which gives you distress, that is not wanted. Therefore Bhāgavata begins with dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra: [SB 1.1.2] "The cheating type of religion is rejected." Because in every religion there is some desire for material objective, up to mukti. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī. General people, karmīs, they want pleasure, material pleasure. The jñānīs, they want mukti, and the yogis, they want siddhi. They're everyone beggars. And a bhakta kicks them all out. "We don't want anything. Simply Kṛṣṇa. That's all." Therefore he's desireless. *Gurukṛpā: Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta-niṣkāma ataeva śānta [Cc. Madhya 19.149]. Prabhupāda: Ah! Ataeva śānta. There is śānti. You have to test whether by, by some desire, whether you have become śānta. That is not possible except Kṛṣṇa. When you serve Kṛṣṇa, then you will feel transcendental pleasure. Otherwise you cannot. Sakali aśānta. For mukti they have to do so many things, so many things. So desireless means to desire for Kṛṣṇa. This is the conclusion. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching: mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi. This is desire. "My life after life simply My devotion unto You may be fixed up." That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the beginning He says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jaga... [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. "No, no, no, no," not this." Then there must be some positive. And the positive is: mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi. With simply negative, what you'll do? Simply negative? You must give something positive. Then you'll be satisfied. You are serving somewhere. You don't get sufficient salary. So you desire to give up this, this service. Resignation. But if you don't get any better service, then what will be the result of resignation? You'll starve. Again you'll go, "Master, I did wrong. Please give me that service." So that is... The Māyāvādīs' position is like that. They want to become merged into the Supreme. But that is not possible. After some time... āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They undergo very good auster..., severe austerities and reach the brahmajyoti, but there, everything being vacant, they cannot remain there. And they have no information of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they again come down. Patanty adhaḥ. He wants enjoyment, but there is no enjoyment. Simply thinking, "I am Brahman." What is the enjoyment there? You think like a rascal Brahman. Yes, you are Brahman already. Why these sputnik wālās, they go...? (Laughter) Devotee: Sputnik wālās. Prabhupāda: They go very high and again come down? Here is... Why you are coming? You have gone so high. There is no shelter. There is no shelter. He must come down. Similarly, to become desireless, there is no shelter. So you must come to this desire, material desire. *Gurukṛpā: It says in the Brahma*-saṁhitā that they may go for the speed of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: ...the mind, but... *Prabhupāda: Panthās tu koṭi-śata*-vatsara-saṁpragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām [Bs. 5.34]. Just like child. We are experiencing. As soon as we finish, cries. And give him something. "All right." So there must be something positive. Simply taking away, vacant that will not satisfy. He'll have to cry again, "Oh, I am vacant. I am vacant." So Māyāvādīs' position is like that. The karmīs, yogis, jñānīs, all they are fools. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya. [Bg. 18.66] "You rascal, you give up all these karmīs, yogis, jñānī, siddhi... Kick out." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the instruction. "Only unto Me. Then you'll be satisfied." Then the karmīs may say, "Oh..." Because he has got idea, without working... Just like all these fools and rascals, they are surprised, "How these people do not work, and how are happy?" They cannot imagine that without working hard, one can eat, one can sleep. But when they see that our devotees, they do not work, they are nobody's servant, "How it is possible?" They cannot think. They cannot think. But it is possible. Therefore the... When Kṛṣṇa says that mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, that, the karmīs, jñānīs, they are thinking, "Then how I will live? If I do not..., simply I become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, how shall I live?" So therefore Kṛṣṇa assures: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. "I shall give you protection." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "You first of all surrender unto Me; Then whatever you want, there will be supply." Gurukṛpā: The karmīs, they are always worried. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: They are worried. So Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Karandhara? We made the contract to purchase the Bombay land without money. There was no money at that time. When I signed that contract. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the money came? Devotees: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: And not one rupee, two rupees. Eighteen lakhs of rupees. And when I signed the contract, I had no eighteen hundred. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: You have to make... We have to add one zero... Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the right side. You have to add one zero, so that 18 hundred. Gurukṛpā: And the time when you signed the contract is the time when Madhudviṣa Swami went to Australia. He did not want to stay in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, I asked him that "Whether you can take charge?" He refused, "No, I cannot take charge." You know that? Gurukṛpā: Yes, I heard. *Prabhupāda: Then Brahmānanda give me assurance. "I can take charge." Therefore I signed. But factually, he was as good as Madhudviṣa. (laughs) He made a contract with a, that camp, forty thousand rupees. I settled up for ten thousand rupees. So our work is going on in India and money's spent. Fifty percent is spoiled by this American brain. What can be done? There is no... They'll loot. They cheat. Like anything. Just like this camp. It was, it was Brahmānanda and Madhudviṣa combined together made a contract*-forty thousand rupees. Then I said that "Then I am not going to pay you. You go." In Kumbha Melā also, the contract was ten thousand. So five thousand already paid. So I said, "I have no money. You have to become satisfied with the ten thousand." So they began some trouble, but after all, accepted. Because they make five hundred percent profit. Gurukṛpā: As soon as they see American, it becomes twice as much. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Twice not. Five hundred times. (laughter) As soon as they face: "They're Americans. They have got money." Gurukṛpā: Same thing in market. When they go shopping and... Prabhupāda: Yes. "Damn cheap." "Damn cheap, bābu." I have told this story, "Damn cheap, bābu"? Eh? Gurukṛpā: No. (end) Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles Nitāi: Morning Walk, January 12th, 1974, Los Angeles. [break] *Prabhupāda: : ...accepting a leader, one has to consider what is the position of the leader. They do not take such account. Now they calculate if the leader is very cunning, then he is qualified. They think that politics means cheating, cunning, bluffing. That is good qualification. Lloyd George, sometimes before he came, he said, "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." He must be inconsistent. And here, this is defense. Tasya vartamānasya. How he is situated [break] ...as it was everywhere, especially in India, that if one is not God conscious, he is a third*-class rascal. That standard is now gone. Now to become God conscious, to talk of God, is a business of primitive fools. They think like that. Is it not? Prajāpati: Yes. They say they are realistic and we are not realistic. Prabhupāda: Who is realistic? The rascals? Prajāpati: They think that people who believe in God are not realistic. Prabhupāda: Oh. And what is the realistic? Satsvarūpa: To work in social reform or politics is realistic. Prabhupāda: Reform means that continuously reform? Then where is perfection? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have no standard. Prabhupāda: No standard. What is the standard of reform, that they do not know. Wherefrom the swan came? Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣṇa. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the facilities are there... Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: [break] ...from Rūpānuga Mahārāja stating that six devotees around the country now will be running for political offices, hopefully just to inject Kṛṣṇa consciousness into the political arena. Prabhupāda: He is one of them? Prajāpati: No, no. Not Rūpānuga Mahārāja. I am one of them in this area, here. Prabhupāda: So which post you are going to contest? Prajāpati: United States Congress. Prabhupāda: Oh. Senator? Prajāpati: Well, congressman. There's two offices of the legislature: the Senate and the House of Representatives. For each state there are two senators, no matter what the population, and for the house of representatives, every so many hundred thousand people, there is one representative. Prabhupāda: That's like in England, House of Commons. And senator, House of Lords. Prajāpati: Yes, that's right. [break] ...have been projected. One is that we preach very boldly and hold no bars, make it known completely what our platform is. The other attitude is one of making up propaganda more palatable by saying if elected we will reinstitute prayers into schools and not tell them much more than that. Prabhupāda: Why in the school? In every home. *Prajāpati: Well, it was a very big issue several years ago. They used to have a prayer at the beginning of each school day. But then one demoniac lady, one atheist, she, by her, simply by her will*-power got the Supreme Court to rule that unconstitutional. Now prayers are not allowed in schools anymore unless we make an amendment to the constitution, saying "Yes, we can have a prayer in school." Then it would be allowed. Prabhupāda: Even prayers are allowed, unless there is scientific knowledge of God, that will not help. The prayer's still going on in the churches, but what improvement? They have become hackneyed. It requires training. Prajāpati: Then our political campaign should be educating the people in general as much as possible in the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is taking a chance to educate people. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We may not be successful in the beginning, but it is a good way of preaching, exposing to the general mass. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: As they elect the congressmen generally to solve different social problems which are existing in the society, so in our campaigning process, should we try to show them practical application of the philosophy for solving all their social problems, or should we preach philosophically? *Prabhupāda: No. We should preach that "Stop these things. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating." Practically you teach them. This is the real social problem. Umāpati: Should we also try to introduce legislation immediately to close the slaughterhouses? Prabhupāda: No. If you want good men, good leader, you must be free from all these, I mean, sinful activities. Otherwise there is no question of good leader, or good man. There is no question. First principle is this. Just like a patient, he must abide by the prescription, that "You must do this, you must do not this." Then there is cure. And simply if he goes on in his own way, then there is no value of consulting a physician. So the first program is that "If you want really good leader and if you want to become yourself also good, then you must give up these four sinful activities. Otherwise, all your scheme will be failure." Umāpati: So we would tell the people that if we were elected we would try to close the slaughterhouses. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is different thing. Why you should say, revolting something. You say that "Don't eat meat." That is slaughterhouse closing. If you say that "Close your slaughterhouse," they will think that these are, what is called? Umāpati: Radical. Prabhupāda: Ideal, radicalist, idealist. But if you can induce them... That is also another process... Umāpati: Through influence. *Prabhupāda: They agree. Then automatically, slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, "Don't cooperate with the British government." That was his... Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians*-all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that "You non-cooperate; then the Britishers will automatically go away." That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that "You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?" This should be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that "They're against our real joyful life. So these men are useless." You have to explain that "If these things, sinful activities, you prolong, then you cannot become happy." Umāpati: People will ask us, if we get into office. What are we going to do? What is the first thing we are going to do? What can we do? Since there are many, many other legislators and many other senators, they say, "You are only one man. How you can possibly change the country if we elect you?" Prabhupāda: That I know. That I know, that I am... Therefore we are, internally, we are not after the office; we are after educating people. Yes. Even if you go to office, you cannot do. Even if give manifesto, that you will stop slaughterhouse, and you are elected a senator, you cannot stop. Because they are majority there. If you say they will laugh, "What this nonsense saying?" So even if you give any manifesto, you will not be able to carry out it, because their majority is there. Simply you can general way educate them. Or you can give what is there. There is no harm. Umāpati: But there are many people in this country that would like to see prayer put back in schools. Even though they don't understand prayer, at least they like the idea. They are sentimentally attached to it. It was one idea that if we at least say that we would try to get prayer put back in schools... Prabhupāda: But prayer, without these things, background, there is no value of prayer. Umāpati: Yet there are a lot of people who would vote for us on sentiment at least, that at least we are for prayer in schools. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Prayer, to advise people to offer prayer is not bad, but unless one is purified, that will not stay. But prayer, they are still going to church, but still, the churches are being closed. Umāpati: Still, that could be influenced in the right direction afterward. Prabhupāda: Well, influenced, to a certain extent. But as soon as you say, "prayer to God," they will laugh, "What is this God and prayer?" Umāpati: Well, some people won't. Some people still have at least a sentimental attachment to God, and they would like to see at least a semblance of prayer in school. Prabhupāda: Do something practical. "Prayer means to chant the holy name of the Lord. If you have no holy name of the Lord, we are giving you. So you have no expenditure, neither you have any loss. So why don't you try this? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This will be reasonable. Is it not? And if they actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the prayer and everything will be done. Umāpati: But they still would not be allowed to do it in school. There's a law against that, officially, in school. Prabhupāda: That you can introduce. Umāpati: We should try to fight that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now in the schools, now the senator have fixed up one date for prayer? Prajāpati: Yes, one day. Prabhupāda: Some 30th or 31st April. So if the government wants prayer, why they have prohibited in the schools? This is contradiction. Point out. This law was introduced due to inexperience. Now they are coming to experience that it has not helped us. Therefore they are introducing prayer. So why don't you take it? Umāpati: We should ride with that. We should try to get in on that. Prabhupāda: Otherwise what is the use of introducing prayer again? They have experienced that this without prayer, things have failed. That's a fact. You take this point. Umāpati: Yes. The schools are falling apart. Delinquency and there's lots of criminal activity amongst the children in school. And even the teachers are walking out of the classrooms because of the violence in the schools and the lack of communication with their students. Prabhupāda: No, in India, in examination hall there is regularly police. Regularly. I have seen it. So what is the value of this education? There is regular police. Now there is no ordinary guard. Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact some people get killed. During the examination hall, people get killed. Prabhupāda: Just see. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes people want to copy, and those people who are... Prabhupāda: Guarding. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They catch them, and sometimes they get killed outside. Still in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. There has been case. Yes. Umāpati: In Calcutta that way too? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh yes. I was in the examination hall, and in fact, people are very afraid to be caught there. But now I heard that the government of India is going to change the system of examination. Prabhupāda: What is that? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they have introduced a grade system just like here in the United States, and then there will be open books, so that they will be not be afraid of copying things. Open book examination. Prabhupāda: Oh, common sense. (pause) [break] ...man's aeroplane. Just see. Immediately he goes up. And man's aeroplane, oh, you have to takes position, you have to go so many miles like this. Then you can... It is imitation. The aeroplane has also wings, but his wings is collapsed. But that wing you have to keep. Therefore you require so much space. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, a vulture. When the vulture wants to take off, he will run just like an aeroplane for a certain distance. They cannot just get up immediately. Vulture. Prabhupāda: So you scientists, you are like vultures. (laughter) You have imitated vultures. Umāpati: The symbol of the United States is an eagle, which is a bird of prey. Prabhupāda: No, eagle... Our symbol is also Garuḍa, big eagle. Yes. Big eagle, Garuḍa. And you know Garuḍa is not vegetarian. You know that? Prajāpati: Snakes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not vegetarian. So if one becomes a sincere devotee like Garuḍa, you can allow him to become non*-vegetarian. If he cannot give it up. [break] *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Garuḍa is from the jīva-tattva or he is an expansion? *Prabhupāda: No, he is jīva*-tattva. Nitya-siddha. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: Does that mean that there is some soul who can come under influence of māyā in the spiritual sky and some soul who cannot? Prabhupāda: Yes, that potency is there always. *Umāpati: Is that the difference between jīva*-tattva and Viṣṇu-tattva. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Viṣṇu*-tattva is called acyuta, infallible. [break] Prajāpati: ...from politics to the world of theology. One of the most misunderstood passages in the western scriptures, things that are..., most speculation about, is the beginning of the Book of John, where it is said, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." And that Greek word is logos. And so many people have said so many different things about that passage. No one really understands it. *Prabhupāda: They cannot understand the Absolute. God and God's word are not different. Otherwise, why we are after Bhagavad*-gītā? Because Bhagavad-gītā is the words of God. So as good as God. Umāpati: Absolute? Prabhupāda: Absolute, yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We also say that. We say that the beginning the sound vibration oṁ was there. Oṁ. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śabdād anāvṛtti. In Vedānta*-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Śabdāt. By vibration. Prajāpati: But it goes on to say, "Then the word then came down to earth and dwelt with man as Jesus Christ." They say Lord Jesus Christ was the word incarnate. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Umāpati: Incarnate means flesh, having come down in flesh. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Prajāpati: From our Kṛṣṇa conscious standpoint, this means a person who is jagad*-guru, who is fully living śāstra, and therefore non-different from the word of God? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Because he is following the words of God, therefore he is not different from the words of God. It is practical. Just like a lawyer is not different from the law. Therefore he is called lawyer. Prajāpati: But like you were mentioning this morning in class, how they are cheaters. They simply say they are lawyers, but instead they are breaking the law. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nowadays, big lawyer means who can tactfully break the law. That is good lawyer. They will find out some flaw in the law and win the case. A man has committed murder, everyone knows, and if a lawyer can save him, then he is a good lawyer. How to nullify the law, he is a good lawyer. Umāpati: We find that our administration and our government is composed of about fifty or sixty per cent lawyers. Prabhupāda: Like Nixon. Umāpati: Yes. Pretty much so like Nixon. Prabhupāda: What is the position of Nixon now? Umāpati: He's getting more popular. Prabhupāda: How? Umāpati: Well, he couldn't get any less popular. So now nothing's happened. So he is the only one available. So he is getting more popular. People forget. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: They are all cheaters. So because he is a cheater, they feel he is one of them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: That's called representation. Prabhupāda: Yes. People have become cheaters. Therefore their representative is also cheater. You can make vigorous propaganda that "This will not help without prayer, offering prayer to Lord. You shall stopped; it is not good. And prayer means you chant the name of God. So there is no loss on your part. If there is some gain, why don't you try it?" It will be very nice, beneficial. Umāpati: They have nothing more to lose. Prabhupāda: "But if you chant, you will be gainer. So... And what is the harm? You chant and see the result." Umāpati: But they must follow the four regulative principles too. Prabhupāda: You can advise. Even they do not follow, they will later on follow, by chanting. Yes. *Nara*-nārāyaṇa: At our Sunday program, generally, the guests do not follow the four regulative principles, but when they come, they become very blissful. Prabhupāda: But one thing. When you make your propaganda, you must have the facility for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Or you are simply going to speak? No chanting? Prajāpati: No, we'll always have chanting. We will not speak without first chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: But still we have to talk to them. Prabhupāda: No, you can talk. But first of all chanting. And request them to join the chanting. Umāpati: We will probably become known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa party, just like we became known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. (end) Morning Walk -- January 15, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: ...one poster [break] Satsvarūpa: ...real leaders don't spoil life. Bali Mardana: Yeah, I saw the plan. It's nice. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bali Mardana: I saw the plans for it; it's very nice. [break] Prabhupāda: Also clear water like this. Bali Mardana: Oh. Prabhupāda: Juhu Beach is better than this. Bali Mardana: Yeah, this is rocky. [break] Prabhupāda: There are two millions types of vegetables and trees. Two million. What these rascals know? The botanists might have seen thousands, but two millions there are. (japa) So they are getting bitter melon? Bali Mardana: They have got already. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Bitter melon, eggplant, maybe this mankachu (?). They prepare. They will be very nice combination, yes. Buy one vegetable, you can eat whole thing. Yes. Sudāmā: We will try and get some squash leaves, too. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Sudāmā: I remember when we were here four years ago you had them. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sudāmā: The stems. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...the word... Prabhupāda: Salt, salt, turned into sand. Salty water, silica. Sodium silicate. Salt is called sodium carbonate? Bali Mardana: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: Eh? [break] From any earth you'll find some percentage of salt. [break] ...for increasing population, but we rascals, we have made, "No, you cannot come here. You rot there." This is our civilization. India, China is overpopulated. So if people allow, just like Australia, Africa, and many islands. Bali Mardana: Russia. Prabhupāda: Russia is useless. Bali Mardana: Oh, it's too cold. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is for the Russians. But there are so many other islands like this. Sudāmā: Tahiti. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudāmā: Tahiti. Also is... Below here. Bali Mardana: There are thousands of islands in the Pacific. Prabhupāda: Just see. Let them come and live here. Produce foodstuffs, have cows, fruits, flowers, live peacefully, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; but they won't allow. Americans, yes, they have got so much land. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. Whatever is Kṛṣṇa's property, you can... You are Kṛṣṇa's son; *you can utilize it. But one son is prohibiting, "No, no, you cannot enter here." This is the problem. The so*-called nationalism is dangerous. Just see how nice flowers, fruits, plant. Everything is there, complete. Sudāmā: Yes. Jayaśrī is here also. Prabhupāda: Oh. (japa) Thank you. Jayaśrī joined when I first came here? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Feeling all right? I think you joined when I first came here? Jayaśrī: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Thank you. [break] ...savitā sakala*-grahāṇām. Gāyatrī mantra is worshiping the sun. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ, unlimitedly powerful, unlimitedly heated. Aśeṣa, how much heat is there, your brain cannot accommodate. And therefore it is said, aśeṣa-tejāḥ: "without any limit." This is God's creation. Where is the scientist who can create a small sun? How this water is going there? Where is the pipe? You rascal, if you want to pump your water in the skyscraper building, you require pumping and pipe and so many things, but where is the pipe? And where is the pumping station or pumping machine? But you'll find so much water. How the water is transferred there? What is their explanation? They'll use simply some bogus jugglery of words. That's all. But produce it, without pipe, without pump. Let the water go up, up. "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do it." And what about of the present? Who is that scientist? Bali Mardana: They say it is an accident, that the world is going to the... *Prabhupāda: They are rascals. Therefore I always say, "Kick them on their face with your shoes, so*-called scientists." "Accident." There is no question of accident. Mūḍha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍhāḥ, rascals, narādhama. Narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. Because they got this opportunity to appreciate the work of Kṛṣṇa, but they avoid it, they are narādhama. No, they are so big, big graduate, scientists, and..." māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Their real knowledge is taken away, simply childish proposing something, so-called scientists. Real knowledge is to see everywhere Kṛṣṇa, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. The supervision of Kṛṣṇa. That is real knowledge. Not only to appreciate, but to explain it also. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī will appreciate, but cannot explain how it is being done. Madhyama-adhikārī will explain. That is preacher. And uttama-adhikārī, he thinks that everyone knows, everyone knows. He does not see that somebody knows, somebody does not know. He sees everyone knows. That is uttama-adhikārī. He does not make any distinction. Bali Mardana: He does not preach. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No. He's paramahaṁsa. Does not preach means he preaches, but he comes to the second*-class platform. The first-class platform means he does not make any distinction between devotee and nondevotee. He sees everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. *Bali Mardana: Does he consciously come from the first*-class to second-class. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like Jesus Christ says that there was many things to be said by, by... Bali Mardana: "There are many things, but I can, but you cannot, I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them now." *Prabhupāda: Yes, so that means he's first*-class, but he comes to the second-class platform or third-class platform to teach the third-class, second-class person. He's first class. Son of God cannot be second-class or third-class. He must be first-class. But... Just like Lord Buddha. He's God Himself, but He said nothing about God because he knew that "These rascals, they will not be able to... Let them stop meat-eating, that's all. Let them become sinless first of all; *then they will be able..." So his main preaching was ahiṁsā, non*-violence, no meat-eating. But still, they violate that. Jesus Christ also preached, "Thou shall not kill," but these rascals, all violating. And still, they are proclaiming as Christian and Buddhist. No religion will, real religion, will allow this kind of violence, no religion. It is cheating religion. Dharmaḥ kaitavaḥ: Any religion committing unnecessary violence to the animals, (it is) third-class. It is not religion, it is cheating. Simply cheating. Sudāmā: They believe it's very necessary. *Prabhupāda: They believe because they're rascals. Why necessary? We are not meat*-eaters, why it is necessary? You have created necessary. Tongue. Tār madhye jihvā ati lobhamoy sudurmati: "The tongue is very greedy and it does not satisfy." Therefore they create their necessity. Civilized human, how they can eat meat? It is meant for the cats, dogs, tigers, not for human beings. So they're not human beings even. Actually they're animals. What religion animals may have? [break] ...Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, from one seed, a small, such a big tree has come, and within that seed there are the potency of demonstrating how variegatedness, nicely, within that seed. You produce such things? Make by chemical composition something and sow it and a tree will come out like this? Bali Mardana: We will have it next year. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Next year we will have it. Prabhupāda: Next year? Bali Mardana: Yes, we are working on it. Prabhupāda: Who is working on it? Bali Mardana: The scientists always say, "Next year, next year." Prabhupāda: Next year. Then before next year coming, he will be finished. Sudāmā: They're producing large trees out of plastic. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudāmā: They make, they can make a whole at... Just like this island, they can make out of plastic. Plastic coconut trees... Prabhupāda: How many they can make? Bali Mardana: They do not reproduce. Sudāmā: They don't reproduce, though. *Prabhupāda: Simply they're rascals and who are bewildered by rascals, they are also rascals. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. He's an animal, and their work is appreciated by another animal. The so-called scientists' advancement of knowledge is appreciated by another rascal, not any intelligent man. We can appreciate, but when they're godless, we kick him out. Just see. This is the... Now, this is a solid thing. How it grows and how the water comes? Now it will not grow. Because (it is) detached. But if it remains attached, it will grow. So wherefrom the water is coming? Bali Mardana: From the ground. Prabhupāda: And you'll find that it is well protected cell, and you find two pieces of cāpāṭi and one glass of water, ready. No need of cooking. Yes. You simply take. Take the water and take the pulp and eat pulp and the glass of water. That's all. Your meal is finished; luncheon is finished. You don't require. Sudāmā: The atheist class of men, they are thinking "Well, we are watering. We are giving the water with the hose. We are giving water in the tree. Just like this man is cutting the lawn. So we are maintaining it." They are not thinking that Kṛṣṇa is giving the water. Prabhupāda: Then wherefrom water comes? You rascal, wherefrom you got the water? Sudāmā: They say, "It's too much to think about." Prabhupāda: That means rascal. That means rascal. (japa) [break] ...plastic group like this? Their life will be finished. [break] Devotee: ...in Time magazine yesterday, and the scientists are thinking now that man is his mind. They were talking about the brain. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: That if man only knew his mind he would know himself. What is actually the brain? And the mind? Prabhupāda: Mind, that is also matter, material. Devotee: They're saying that the mind or the brain is the source of man's consciousness. Prabhupāda: No. Brain is the instrument for expressing consciousness. Otherwise, when the man is dead, why the brain does not work? Do you follow? Devotee: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Why the brain work stops? Devotee: The soul leaves the body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Body is also material. Spirit soul, so long there is within the body, it works. You cut this tree and it will dry, it will not work. So long the soul is there, it is very luxuriant, very beautiful. (japa) [break] ...further? Devotee: No. Satsvarūpa: Decorations. Prabhupāda: Decoration? Satsvarūpa: These white pillars? Prabhupāda: Yes... [break] ...and papaya is very good for breakfast. [break] ...better than Los Angeles. Bali Mardana: Oh yes. Sudāmā: You like it? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Bali Mardana: Actually, Hawaii is supposed to be the center of... It's right between the East and the West, between Japan and U.S.A. and Australia. Prabhupāda: Yes, marginal. Bali Mardana: It is a good headquarters for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: For USA, 'cause then... It is very easy to come from the mainland. Prabhupāda: Yes. So make a headquarters. Bali Mardana: O.K. Sudāmā: We can make... We'll make a nice house for you on the land. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Very nice. (japa) [break] Where? Here? Sudāmā: Yes, they're cows, but they keep them very poorly, treat them very badly. Prabhupāda: Why? You keep cows nicely. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Jayaśrī: On Kauai they have tulasī plants and they have a cow. Sudāmā: There's some devotees on another island and they have tulasī plants and a cow there. Prabhupāda: Very good. [break] Nitāi: Morning Walk... (end) Morning Walk -- January 16, 1974, Hawaii *Prabhupāda: ...enjoy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't forget Kṛṣṇa, Then you are well. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. Such a nice park. If we hold saṅkīrtana, people gather and enjoy distribution of prasādam, then it becomes very nice. And only to come here to find out sex facilities, then going to ruin. (Aside:) Give me that. (japa) Very good park. [break] ...and for class of people, talking. This is required, philosophical talk, those who will understand. For mass of people kīrtana is sufficient. Bali Mardana: Kīrtana and prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: And then when you start to talk, they become fidgety. (laughter) Sudāmā: Or they want to argue. Prabhupāda: Just like for children, you give them prasādam, all will gather together. You see? And if you talk before them philosophy, what they will understand? (japa) [break] Bali Mardana: ...Rajneesh. I think he's just doing exercises. Prabhupāda: Varieties of madmen. Keśava tuyā jagata vicitra (?): "O My Lord Keśava, Your creation is full of varieties." (sound of man shouting in the background) The same Rajneesh process? Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...Girirāja? Bali Mardana: Well, ah, Tamāla is going (indistinct) [break] Prabhupāda: The vast ocean, how looks beautiful. There is God's creation. Bali Mardana: As far as I know, the only publicity that was made from Vṛndāvana was the letters sent to the temples. Prabhupāda: But they must have been preparing for that. Anyway... The scientist says hydrogen and oxygen is mixed into water. Who supplies so much hydrogen and oxygen? Bali Mardana: Only God. Would you say that from God's vantage point everything that happens here is not very significant? Prabhupāda: Oh, there are many Sikhs? Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So we shall return? [break] Bombay also has beach. Not much cold, not much heat. Bali Mardana: They now have an apartment for you in Juhu. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is our house. Bali Mardana: I think it is. [break] Prabhupāda: ...in the history there is no such action. Devotee: There was one time on one of the other islands. It fell on someone, some child. Bali Mardana: Sometimes during a storm it may be loosened. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣṇa lets them fall in such a way that people don't get hurt. Prabhupāda: [break] ...grow fruit, eh? [break] And if the fruit is green, it will never fall. Therefore when the fruits are grown, green, take it down. But that they do not know. Bali Mardana: I don't know if they do. Prabhupāda: Because they do not use coconut. Sudāmā: No, they throw them away. Bali Mardana: They are not intelligent. Sudāmā: They don't know anything about dābs. Bali Mardana: No? Sudāmā: They think dābs is not good. Yes, karmīs don't like the taste. *Prabhupāda: The only good thing is meat, for them. Kadarya*-bhakṣana kare. Nānā yoni sadā phire, kadarya-bhakṣana kare Devotee: I do not follow. Nitāi: No. I recognize khāya. Khāya means eating, eats. Prabhupāda: Eh? All abominable things. Not natural products. So, did you like that preparation? Bali Mardana: Which one was that? Prabhupāda: Yesterday. Bali Mardana: Oh yes, it was very nice. You have taught them very well. Prabhupāda: When is Ekādaśī? Sudāmā: Saturday. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Bali Mardana: Only thing I did not like was the bitter melon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: I did not like the bitter melon. Prabhupāda: You did not like? Bali Mardana: It is too bitter. Prabhupāda: Oh, it was so nice. Eh? Sudāmā: Do you like it, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. It is very beneficial for the stomach and kidney. Bali Mardana: It's like medicine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Your wife also did not like? Bali Mardana: Oh, she likes it. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then it is all right. You are American fools. And she is Japanese. Japanese are very intelligent. Yes. Extraordinarily. They're just like Bengalis. Yes. Because mostly they eat fish. Fish is very good thing. It has got sufficient quantity of phosphorus. So brain becomes nice*-for this crude work, not for fine spiritual work. Bali Mardana: No. Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday I received a telephone call from Gopāla and he said that in a month- Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa? *Sudāmā: : *-yes, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, Mahārāja, in Tokyo. Bali Mardana: No, Gopāla Svāmī. Sudāmā: Gopāla Svāmī. Prabhupāda: Gopāla Svāmī, yes. Sudāmā: And he said that within a month the society will be registered there in Japan. That the registration is finally coming to effect. Satsvarūpa: There was also a telegram from Bhūrijana in Hong Kong. Prabhupāda: Ah. Satsvarūpa: And he's fully prepared for us to come and he's hoping that we'll come. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes, then prepare that. So by the twenty*-eighth? Satsvarūpa: Yes, we'll inform him. Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: We shall cross here or there? Bali Mardana: The car is over here. (end) Questions and Answers -- January 17, 1974, Hawaii Woman devotee: If we have a desire to keep these promises, but we have a hard time to do it... *Prabhupāda: As soon as you fail to keep your promise, then you're fallen. You have to rectify yourself. Immediately you're fallen. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sa siddhim [Bg. 16.23]. That means you'll never get perfection. You'll fall down. You can cheat others that "I am in dress of a devotee, so I am..." What is your character? What is your actual value? That has to be judged. That is call bona fide teacher. All right, chant. (brief japa chanting) Any questions? Devotee (1): Yes, one more. Guest: Is the exterior clothing important? Prabhupāda: Ah? Guest: Is the exterior identification important? Prabhupāda: Yes, important. Just like officially the policeman must dress, but a policeman sometimes in ordinary cloth also, that's his duty. But that is special case. But external, external dress is also required. By... In the dress of a police if he is a thief, that is very dangerous. That is very dangerous. Just like this dress of sannyāsī, saffron cloth, one will respect that "Here is a sannyāsī." But if he is a thief in a dress of a sannyāsī, that is dangerous. That is dangerous. One must dress... (end) Morning Walk -- January 18, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: "...morning," what is the meaning? Sudāmā: Well, it's just actually become an expression of greeting. Literally, of course, it means that "I am pleased to see you, happy to meet you. Good morning." Prabhupāda: Anyone else? Satsvarūpa: In English when we say, "Goodbye," that means "God be with you." Some God consciousness. Pradyumna: They say, "Good morning. Good morning to you." *Bali*-mardana: Like one pig grunting at another pig. Prabhupāda: "Good morning" means... Because it is English word... In England every morning is bad morning, because it is cloud. When they see one day that cloud is clear, they say, "Good morning." (japa) [break] ...similarly, a good soul means when there is no māyā, then he's good soul. *Bali*-mardana: Or cloud. Prabhupāda: Huh? Cloud. māyā is cloud. So what is that cloud? Sudāmā: Forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That cloud is when a soul desires to become the master. That is cloud. (japa) *Bali*-mardana: You can go. I saw it yesterday. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Bali*-mardana: I think it is in the opposite direction of the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...formation of water? Devotee: Do you know? A scientific explanation of water? *Bali*-mardana: H-2-O. Hydrogen, two molecules of hydrogen, one molecule of oxygen. Prabhupāda: So in anywhere there is water, that formula is applicable? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, within the dob there is water. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: So who supplied the chemicals? *Bali*-mardana: Within the dob? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: The chemist. The supreme chemist. Prabhupāda: So that is our theologist's... What is their explanation? *Bali*-mardana: They say the water is from the ground. By the roots, it is drawn up to the dob. Prabhupāda: I understand that. But the chemical is being supplied from the root? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Just like when there is no water they say the tree will die. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bali*-mardana: When there is no rain, the plant life cannot live. So they say that the water is drawn from the root to nourish the plant. [break] Prabhupāda: ...water is drawn, then the question will be how the water is drawn? *Bali*-mardana: Well, each tree has a system of, er, system of like tubes through which the water is drawn up. Prabhupāda: Then as soon as there is system, system is done by somebody. *Bali*-mardana: Hm. Satsvarūpa: Nature, they say. *Bali*-mardana: Nature, mother nature. Prabhupāda: Yes, then mother nature why does not allow you to draw water from the ground? Then mother nature has got sense. Sudāmā: Why mother nature doesn't let us draw water? Prabhupāda: Yes, we cannot draw water. *Bali*-mardana: But from the well we can draw water. Sudāmā: We can find water. Prabhupāda: No, no. Satsvarūpa: In the mouth we have to drink it. Prabhupāda: Not like the tree. Trees are called padapa. Padapa means it draws water from the leg. But why you cannot draw water from the leg, by the leg? Why you draw water by the hand? Satsvarūpa: Because it's nature's arrangement. Prabhupāda: That means nature has got sense. Satsvarūpa: They say that nature has simply the desire to see that the species is propagated. Prabhupāda: Anyway, when you see nature has arranged like that, just try to understand that the tree is made to draw water from the legs, but you cannot do. You have to draw water from the hand. Why different? As there is discrimination, there is sense. You should... It is nature's, I mean to say, order that, or arrangement that "You shall draw water from the hand, and the tree shall draw from the leg." So as there is different arrangement, there is discretion, why I am allowed to draw water by the hand and the tree is allowed to draw water from the leg. *Bali*-mardana: They say that evolution. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, there is discretion. As soon as you say evolution, then evolution means there is also some arrangement that "You shall act like this, and he shall act like this." Sudāmā: Some people already believe, "Well, we already have so much water." Just like when we sweat, there is already water there. There's no question of drawing it from the... like the trees. Prabhupāda: Why do you draw water? Why you draw water from other source? If you have got water? If you haven't got water, that's all right. Is that sufficient? Sudāmā: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Satsvarūpa: Their idea of the arrangement is that everything is meant for man, for his exploitation and enjoyment. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Everything is meant for man's, he's the chief living entity. That's their understanding of the arrangement. The tree may have to do this, but we can drink it another way. *Bali*-mardana: Man uses his intelligence. Prabhupāda: That means there is some superior supervision that "You must do like that. He must do like that." You call it nature. We accept that. We also say... Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa says, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ: [Bg. 3.27] "Everything is being done by the direction of prakṛti, nature." So nature is superior than you. You have to accept. Because you are being directed by nature. *Bali*-mardana: Their hope is that they can become superior to nature. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. There is the foolishness. *Bali*-mardana: He wants to be the best. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. Vimūḍha, rascaldom, ahaṅkāra, by self-conceit. Falsely he's thinking that "I am doing it." Or "I shall be able to do it, without." This is foolishness, this is rascaldom. (japa) Good morning. *Passers*-by: Good morning. Satsvarūpa: The scientists can give evidence that so much control has been gained. Now we can fly all over the world... *Prabhupāda: Then so much control, that is another thing. But not control. "So much control" means no control. (japa) [break] ...admitted that we are controlled by nature. That you cannot refuse. That is foolishness. Now, next, how nature is working? That is also replied in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "The material nature is working..." Just like we are also taking the advantage of material nature, kṣity-ap-tejaḥ. Here is earth, but we can take this earth and make into brick and make a skyscraper building. So it is not that the earth itself is going to become a skyscraper building. I am living entity; I am utilizing. So nature means these five elements, eight elements. So that has been manipulated by another living entity. Just like the aeroplane is a combination of some matter, but it is being worked out by the manufacturer, by the pilot. Therefore that driver of the aeroplane or the manufacturer of the..., he's superior. So superior to the material nature is Kṛṣṇa. This is the conclusion. [break] ...our position is that we are being controlled by the material nature, and, and nature, material nature, is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. So the sense is that one who is at all sensible, that "After all, the controller is Kṛṣṇa. So why not directly under control of Kṛṣṇa?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why through the material nature? I have to be controlled. I am being controlled by the material nature; and material nature is being controlled by Kṛṣṇa. So why not being directly controlled? This is good sense. *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent, and the material nature is not. Prabhupāda: No, material nature... Just like you don't care for government. Then you be controlled by the jail superintendent. That's all. You'll be controlled. You cannot be free. But if you deny directly the control of the government then you must be controlled by the criminal department, by force. This is your position. *Bali*-mardana: Either to be controlled by love or by force. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Bali*-mardana: One has a choice to either be controlled by love or by force. Prabhupāda: But love, there is no love when there is force. *Bali*-mardana: No, but by Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is love. Just like you are being controlled by me. There is no force. Voluntarily, out of love... I am not paying you. Still, if I say something, immediately you do. Why? There is love. That's all. *Bali*-mardana: One who actually understands the distinction, is it possible that he will still choose to be controlled by the material nature? *Prabhupāda: Yes, he has already chosen. But he's foolish. He does not know. He thinks that "I am now independent of the Supreme Lord." But because he's foolish, he cannot understand that you are not independent. You are being controlled by another agent of God. And because, although he's being controlled, he's thinking, "I am free," therefore he's in illusion. This is called illusion. Illusion means something which is not fact. That is illusion. So this materialist, the so*-called scientist, he's thinking, "There is no God. We are independent." So many things, like rascal they are thinking. Foolish rascal, childish. And that is illusion. Ahaṅkāra-vimudhātmā. Therefore this very word is used, vimūḍhātmā: "befooled rascal." Actually, he's being controlled by material nature. So how to get out of this material nature? That is explained, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "As soon as that rascal surrenders unto Me, immediately he's out of control." Hare Kṛṣṇa. How these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians can refute this arrangement? Is it possible? *Bali*-mardana: Yes, they refuse. Prabhupāda: They refuse. That is..., means rascaldom. They do not actually understand the fact. How they can refuse? Every moment they are controlled by the material nature. Every step. *Bali*-mardana: The thing is that they do not realize. They are in illusion. They do not realize... Prabhupāda: That is... That means... Therefore we say they are rascals. They do not realize the fact. Therefore, rascal. Rascal means who do not understand the real fact. Satsvarūpa: They say that we are also under the control of nature? Prabhupāda: What? Satsvarūpa: They don't see that we, that the devotee is actually free of the material nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: They say, well, we also, we have to die, we have to grow old. Just because we're Hare Kṛṣṇas... Prabhupāda: That's all right. But we admit that. But you don't admit that. Therefore you are foolish. We admit that "Yes, we are under control." That is the difference between you and me. But you don't admit. Therefore you are foolish. Nitāi: Usually, they admit. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: Usually, they admit that death is certain. But the thing is that they say, what, that you can't do anything about it. Prabhupāda: That means you are under control. You are not independent. Satsvarūpa: But we say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa and you can become free," and they say, "No, I don't see that." *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that a sensible man is that "I am controlled. I am controlled by some other agent of Kṛṣṇa. So why not be controlled directly by Kṛṣṇa." This is sense. I cannot be independent. Just like the government. If somebody says, "I don't agree to be controlled by you," then government will kick with police, with military. That is our position. We are being kicked by the agent of government, material nature. We are desiring in different way to become controller or enjoyer, and we are being offered different facilities, means different types of body, birth and death. So because they have no sense, they have accepted this process. So by the force of nature... "You wanted to desire. You desired this thing. All right, take this body. You wanted to eat without discrimination. All right, take this body of a pig and eat up to stool." That is nature's gift. So therefore he's changing. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's going on changing, this dress that dress, that dress, that dress, that dress. But he's not in sense that "How I can stop this change?" That he doesn't know. Now, as Americans, they have so many nice facilities, but you cannot enjoy them. By nature's force, you'll have to change. What you can do? Today you are living on the twenty*-fourth floor of this skyscraper, and tomorrow you may become a rat in that room. How you can change it? It is not in your power. The rat is also in the same room and you are also in the same room. Who has made this arrangement? Nitāi: So they say... Prabhupāda: The bug is also there. The mosquito is also there. The leader is also there. So, so many bodies, they are in the same room, but the enjoyment is not the same. Leaser's enjoyment is not exactly like the occupier of the room. Nitāi: So they say that "Because life is temporary, let's live it up." Prabhupāda: Oh, that is foolish, another foolishness. That is... "You are beating me with your shoes. That's all right, it is temporary. That's all right. Let me go on suffering this." So that is foolishness. He does not think that "Why I have been subjected to be beaten by shoes, insult? All right, I do not mind. It is temporary." That is foolishness. Nitāi: Well, they think that instead of being beaten that they're having fun, that it's pleasurable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless he's... Nitāi: They think, "Let us have all the pleasure we can." Prabhupāda: That is another māyā's illusion. Unless he thinks it is pleasurable, how he can tolerate? Just like the pig, eating stool. Everyone is thinking, "Aoww", but unless he thinks pleasurable, how he can eat? That is another concession of māyā. Praksepātmikā, āvaraṇātmikā. He's covered by illusion. He is accepting the most abominable thing, but he's thinking, "I'm enjoying." This is called māyā. Nitāi: Sometimes we tell them that this life is only full of miseries, and they say, "What do you mean?" Prabhupāda: No, that is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They do not know, they do not distinguish what is misery and what is happiness. They have no sense, no brain. That is their foolishness. Nitāi: So we can convince them by pointing out...? Prabhupāda: They cannot convince them because they are so rascal, so foolish, that they have no brain to understand what is the distinction. They have no brain. Just like cats and dogs. That is their fallen condition. Yes. Sudāmā: They believe that this misery is good. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have explained. Unless they believe it is good, how they can be put in to miserable condition? Just like some of the thieves. They go to jail. They think, "It is very nice. We haven't got to earn. We are getting food here, free of charge. Yes, it is very nice place. It is my father*-in-law's house." (laughs) So unless they believe, how they can tolerate such tribulations? The worm in the stool, he believes, "This is enjoyment." You take it from the stool, put it here, no, it will go again. It thinks it is pleasurable. That is their position. Therefore they have been described as mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. When they believe it, "Oh, it is not good," that is their good fortune. Then they are fortunate. That is explained by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. When they come to that fortunate position, that is first-class. Nitāi: How does one become "bhāgyavān"? Prabhupāda: Bhāgyavān, opulent... If you earn money, you become bhāgyavān. Bhāgyavān means... The word has come from bhagavān, and bhaga means opulence, six kinds of opulence: riches... Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (*Viṣṇu Purāṇa* 6.5.47). So one who possess all these things not exactly like Bhagavān, but partially, according to his position, he's called bhāgyavān. Nitāi: But in this verse that you just quoted, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhagyavān, how does one come, become to the stage of... Prabhupāda: We are making them bhāgyavān. We are giving them service, how to become bhāgyavān. We are spending our blood, gallons of blood, to make them bhāgyavān. This is the sacrifice of the devotees. Just like you are poor. Somebody, rich man, comes, "All right, take one million dollars from me." You get immediately rich. So it is the devotees' sacrifice that they're becoming... Just like Vāsudeva Datta. He requested Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "My Lord, you have come. Take away all these people, unfortunate people, back to home, back to Godhead. If You think they are so inglorious, they cannot be taken, then give me all their sins to me. I shall suffer. You take them." That is Vaiṣṇava. They are sacrificing everything for these unfortunate rascals. Therefore they are becoming very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu [Bg. 18.69]. Those who are sacrificing everything for giving, making fortunate these rascals, they become immediately very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Just like, if a rich man gives his money for public welfare, immediately he's recognized by the government, "Yes." He's given some title. Why? Because he has given his possession for the benefit of the public. Similarly, the devotees, they are distributing their possessions to these unfortunate people. Therefore he's immediately recognized. That is the process. But devotee does not want any recognition, but he knows that "My Lord wants this rascal to go back to home, back to Godhead. So let me try my best." He knows the mind of the master; *otherwise, why the master comes and canvasses, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]? He has no business, but He wants that "These rascals are suffering in this material condition. They are My part and parcel, My sons. Let Me try." And devotee understands that "My Lord wants it. So let me do it on His behalf." Therefore devotee is so dear. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... (end) Morning Walk -- January 19, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: ...spoil this tree. Everything, their business is spoiling. *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: The day before yesterday we were driving down the road and we came across all of these coconut trees, and they were trimming them, and all the coconuts were up on the trees, but they were cutting them down, just letting them fall to the ground. And the the coconuts were cracking and just being wasted completely. And then they'd throw them in the garbage. And there's so much energy that Kṛṣṇa has provided here that they're just wasting. Prabhupāda: As they are wasting, they will be punished. Kṛṣṇa's supply is being wasted. That will be punished [break] ...those coconuts... *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Coconut, you collect, and each one of you use at least two coconuts daily, drinking water and the pulp. It is very digestive and nutritious. The pulp is very nutritious and digestive. If you simply take the pulp from two sides and drink that water, you don't require to eat anything. It is so nutritious. So better collect, and so long you can get them, use two coconuts daily yourself. (japa) [break] ...purchase that Kṛṣṇa, and when he'll ask this man to "Give me that Kṛṣṇa book, let me read," this "Kṛṣṇa" will give him some benefit, his calling "*Kṛṣṇa Book*." *Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya: Just by saying "Kṛṣṇa Book," he makes spiritual advancement? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (japa) [break] ...say, "Give me *Kṛṣṇa Book*." They say like that? Eh? Devotee (1): Last night a boy came up and asked, "How much are those books?" and he wanted to purchase one. It was very nice. Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, one time we went to a shopping center and I was walking down the sidewalk and a boy came running up to me and he said, "Is that Volume Two?" And he said, "Can I have Volume Two?" He said, "I've almost finished Volume One, and I was in so much anxiety that I was going to not have anything else to read, because they're so beautiful." And he said that he works in a candy store, and he has so much anxiety all day from all the people that just give him problems and he doesn't like the work and he doesn't like the people. But he says that lunch time he goes and every day he reads the *Kṛṣṇa Book* and he says he comes back feeling so high. [break] Praghoṣa: ...so he came up and he asked me to look into, if I could show him the *Kṛṣṇa Book* for a second. And he had two friends with him and he said, "Here I would like to show you boys something," and he said, "Do you mind?" And I said, "No." So I handed him the Volume One and he opened it up to that picture of Kṛṣṇa with Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī playing His flute, and he showed the boy and he said, "Look, isn't He beautiful?" Just like that, and they both looked at Kṛṣṇa and said, "Wow," just like that. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Yes, the very picture is attractive, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. (japa) [break] Devotee (3): ...Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, very, very effective. Just like the man is feeling benefited that "I become tired and I read this book, very nice." So he'll gradually become devotee. [break] *Devotee (2): ...this is on chanting hari*-nāma in the streets, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in the streets with mṛdaṅgas and karatālas. It's a very important part of our program. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: Both of them are kīrtana. When you chant, that is also kīrtana; when you distribute book, that is also kīrtana. When you read book, that is also kīrtana. [break] ...joking, if one meets one fat man, so the other man will ask him, "Will you kindly let me know wherefrom you purchase rice?" (laughter) Sudāmā: They consume much rice? Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudāmā: In India. Is much rice consumed? Prabhupāda: No... In Bengal. In Bengal the staple food is rice. Like Japanese. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: General people, they eat rice and fish, especially Bangladesh. They have got enough quantity of fishes. So they use rice and fish. Harer nāma, harer nāma, harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (end) Morning Walk -- January 20, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: The pilots do not like to go? Nitāi: There's nothing for them to do there. Satsvarūpa: There's no life there, they want to go where there may be life. Now they know there's no life there; so there's no point in going. There may be life on Mars. Prabhupāda: Then let them go. They are life. And colonize. Where is life? Which planet, they say, there is life? Nitāi: Venus and Mars. They suspect life on those planets, especially Mars. Prabhupāda: So they are going there? Sudāmā: Yeah, they're making plans to go there. Nitāi: It's quite a bit further than the moon. They watch through their telescopes and every year they see that the surface of the planet changes, that there's certain dark areas which grow and then they recede. Prabhupāda: Every day, every year changes? Why? Nitāi: Well, it appears to be like seasons. First they grow big, and then they grow small, then they grow big. Prabhupāda: Moon planet? *Nitāi: No, this is the Martian... They call them "the Martian canals." So they think that although the life there may not be like we have here, that there may be some living beings there. They consider... What they consider living being is something that could live on this planet. That's what they consider living. So they think that Mars and Venus, because they're very close to this planet-out of all the planets that they know, those two are the closest*-that on those two planets, there may be life like on this planet. (end) Morning Walk -- January 21, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: ...sinful activities, fishing. Just see. Killing another animal. Beginning of life, of the day. Such a nice civilization they have created: waste of time and sinful activities. Bali Mardana: The more they have extra time, the more they commit sins. Prabhupāda: Yes. (break in tape) ...śuddhyed. Life is meant for purifying the existence. They do not know. Rascal education. No education. Still, they are Nobel Prize winner. Just see the fun. Mūḍha. So how many books distributed? Who is a book distributor? Nobody? Sudāmā: Yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes? Sudāmā: Ah, I am not sure of the count... Prabhupāda: Oh, your child has also come. (Laughing) *Hari*-Vallabha: Ātmārāma dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Eh? Sudāmā: I don't know the count for yes... The day before yesterday. *Bali Mardana: In New York last month we paid, er, the month before, we paid forty*-five thousand dollars into the book fund in one month. It's a new record. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Forty*-five thousand? Bali Mardana: In one month. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...distributed big books, from the very beginning. Bali Mardana: And samosās. Prabhupāda: And samosās, yes. (laughs) Bali Mardana: One bookseller in New York. Prabhupāda: Yes, Paradise. Paradise? Bali Mardana: Yes, I think that is it. The woman was telling us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. She was very friendly. Mrs. Max Linder. Her husband is the proprietor, and she would call her husband, "Max, why don't you take these books," like this. She was friendly. And that Mr. Max was first*-class businessman. He will extract as much profit as... (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. It was sold. Practically, in the beginning, they were selling. I was getting some money. There was no other income. Another bookseller, Oriental. Bali Mardana: Yes, Oriental. Nitāi: Orientalia. Prabhupāda: Orientalia, yes. That lady was secretary of Dr. Mishra. (japa) (To child?) Oh, you cannot walk? That's not good. You must walk. She cannot... (japa) She's walking? (japa) Bali Mardana: [break] ...talks real funny, sort of Spanish way? Prabhupāda: I don't know. Bali Mardana: He's been coming for many, many years. He's a old, older man. Prabhupāda: I don't... [break] ...and their exercise is to keep the body fit. Tapasya means to keep the soul fit. (end) Morning Walk -- January 22, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: ..."Unless we see." But you see, but you cannot go. Your argument is, "Unless we see," but you are seeing there is another planet, so many hundred and thousands, millions of planets. But you cannot go there. That is your inefficiency. How can you say? Because your theory is "I must see," but you cannot go there. First of all, admit your inefficiency. Why you conclude, what is it called, abruptly, without seeing. Because seeing is your experience. But you cannot go and see. Why you are trying to go to the moon planet? Just to see. Similarly, there are so many other planets, but you are not efficient to go and see. How can you conclude? Nitāi: Well, they don't conclude. They say, there may be possibility of higher life. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Maybe... Satsvarūpa: Agnostic, "There may be; we don't know." Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: "There may be God, but we don't know." Prabhupāda: That you don't know, but if somebody knows... That is not a proof, that because you cannot see. That is not proof. Nitāi: No. They just... They make this theory based on the fact that the most advanced that they've seen so far is man. Prabhupāda: Who is advanced? Nobody is advanced unless one has seen or known God. That is actually advancement. They're putting so many theories... I have not seen. Why shall I believe you? You are talking so many nonsense which is not in my experience. Why shall I believe you? Hm? Nitāi: Well, then they, then they'll tell you that, "Well, come and we'll show you this experiment." Prabhupāda: Huh? Nitāi: We show you these experiments, and then you can see too. Prabhupāda: What is that experience? You show, make experiment, that from the monkey's body a man is coming. Show me the experiment. Nobody has seen the experiment. Nitāi: Well, in that case they say that the monkey looks so much like man; everything is practically there. Prabhupāda: Well, that doesn't mean... Every man looks like another man; that does not mean he has come from him. He has got a different father. Nitāi: One experiment that they've come up with is that they study the embryo within the womb. Prabhupāda: Huh? Nitāi: They study the embryo within the womb. Prabhupāda: No, that is your experience, but I have not seen. Why shall I believe you? I have not seen. Why will I believe you? What is the answer? You say so many rascaldom, but I have not seen. Why shall I believe you? Satsvarūpa: Well, like Professor Kotovsky said to you, "We accept it because a scientific body has presented it. We can't experiment." Prabhupāda: Ah, so therefore we accept another scientific man. We accept Vyāsadeva. But you don't accept. You say, "Unless we see." So why shall I accept you unless I see? Satsvarūpa: They would say for you to see everything yourself you'd have to become a trained up scientist. Prabhupāda: Similarly, similarly, you have to become like me also to see God. You cannot say that in my case you are authority, and your case I am not authority. How can you say? If you oblige me to accept you as authority, you must accept me also authority. Otherwise, why shall I accept you? Why you are obliging me which I do not see? So many rascals says that he has gone to moon planet, but I have not gone with you. Why shall I believe you? Satsvarūpa: They think that their documentation is something that's more acceptable for... Prabhupāda: So acceptable to someone. My documentation is acceptable to so many. Why not my many? We have got many followers of the documentation of Vedic literature. As you have got your own ways of documentation, I have got my own ways of documentation. If you do not believe my documentation, why shall I believe without seeing your documentation? And if you set aside your documentation, my documentation, then come to reason. Eh? Nitāi: If, if what? Prabhupāda: I don't believe your documentation; *you do not believe my documentation. Then let us come to reason. The reason is, as we see varieties*-one is better than the other-there must be the best. And that is God. So far documentation is concerned, you do not believe my documentation, I do not believe your documentation. Then? How the conclusion will come? As far as possible, by reasoning. Reasoning is that we find one is better than the other. So go on finding; *if you have got power, you will see that the best. (aside:) Give me that. This is reasoning. As the child has a father, the father has his father, the grandfather has his father, then there must be some ultimate father. How can you deny this? By experience you see. Suppose a great*-grandchild does not see the great-grandfather, does it mean that he was not there? The reason is as everyone has got father, father's father, his father, his father, his, so go on, find out the ultimate father. Satsvarūpa: They've just concocted that, that long ago there was no intelligent human life, and that... *Prabhupāda: That is your concoction. We get so many literatures. Huh? The Bhāgavata literature, five thousand years old. You have no history beyond three thousand years. Neither even at the present moment you have got such nice literature. When you say that people are very much advanced, who has produced such literature? Where is a book like Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā, whole world? If you say that this book was written, say 1,500 years ago, but where is a similar literature in any other part of the world? Eh? Is there a similar literature? Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... *Satsvarūpa: When Darwin's theory was first being taught in America, there was opposition from the Christians, and there was a famous court trial called the Scopes case, and the Bible was used to, against this so*-called scientific theory. But the Bible is so inadequate that they lost. Prabhupāda: Yeah, Bible cannot be because it is itself unscientific. Satsvarūpa: The lawyer proved that the Bible could not disprove the Darwin's theory. Prabhupāda: Then why do they not reject Bible altogether? Nitāi: Sentiment. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why do they not reject? Why still? Of course, it is sentiment. They do not accept Bible. The so*-called Christians, they do not accept Bible. Bali Mardana: What they say, they say that everything has, it has a hidden meaning. So the literal meaning is not true literally; it has a hidden meaning which is true. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but nobody has disclosed that hidden meaning. Nitāi: Everyone discloses a different hidden meaning. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Then what is the real hidden meaning? *Satsvarūpa: They say that about the Bhagavad*-gītā too when we say that... We say, "Every verse in the Bhagavad-gītā shows that Kṛṣṇa is God." They say, "No, there are actually different meanings, not 'surrender to Kṛṣṇa.' It means something else, and this means something else." *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā says, "Surrender." If you take Bhagavad-gītā, then Bhagavad-gītā says... You cannot understand... If you want to understand Bhagavad-gītā, you must understand from Bhagavad-gītā. And apart from Bhagavad-gītā, you are already surrendered to God; *you are not independent. Are you independent? Now, if, when there is rain, we could not come here to walk. So we are already surrendered. You cannot stop the rain and walk. You are already surrendered. So if Bhagavad*-gītā says that "You completely surrender," what is the wrong there? You are already surrendered. Just like you are already surrendered to the government laws. If you say, "I don't care for government laws," is that very nice proposal? You're already surrendered. So what is the wrong there? You are already surrendered to the laws of God, or nature, whatever you say. So if Bhagavad-gītā says, "Surrender fully unto Me," what is the wrong there? Bali Mardana: They will say, "Well, how do we know that Kṛṣṇa is God?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: They will say, "How do we...?" Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṇa is not God, but you have already surrendered to God. Kṛṣṇa may not be God, that is... You bring another God, then we shall reject him. Kṛṣṇa... But that you cannot. You do not know who is God. At least, we know what is God. But if you deny that Kṛṣṇa is not God, then bring another God at least equal to Kṛṣṇa. Bali Mardana: They'll bring Guru Maharaji. (laughter) Many people were disappointed in Houston because he did not display any miracles. They were expecting to see many things. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Many of his followers were disappointed 'cause they expected him to show some miracles. Prabhupāda: Yes. He will be rejected after a few years. That's all. Just like Maharishi. Bali Mardana: Maharishi. *Satsvarūpa: I told one professor that... He was arguing in favor of Guru Maharaji. I said, "He's not mentioned in the scriptures," and he says, "Yes, in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says whenever there's a time of irreligion then He comes. So this is a time certainly of irreligion," he said. So that's one evidence, he said, in his favor. Prabhupāda: So what he has done about religion? Satsvarūpa: He hasn't done anything. Prabhupāda: Then? Nitāi: Well, we can see that he hasn't done anything. Prabhupāda: Heḥ? Nitāi: We can see that he hasn't done anything; others would say that "Oh, he's got a movement just like you." Prabhupāda: No, it is not my movement; it is old. I don't say it is my movement. Neither I say that I am God. I am simply speaking of the established movement. Now, my movement is that Kṛṣṇa is God. So Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior authority than Me," but is it a fact that this rascal is the supreme authority? Bali Mardana: No one has any idea what is God. So he, the people... they say, "Here is God", and no no can disprove it, 'cause they have no idea what is God. Prabhupāda: No, no, here is the idea. God must be the supreme authority. So let him prove that he is the supreme authority. He's checked by the custom authority and he's God? He goes to the hospital and he's God? Here is the definition of God, that "There is no more superior authority than Me." And Kṛṣṇa proved. History says that there was no more superior authority than Kṛṣṇa. Then let him prove that first. Satsvarūpa: When the customs authorities tried to stop Kṛṣṇa in Mathurā, He cut off their heads. They said, "Where are you going with that cloth?" Prabhupāda: No, that is supreme authority. Supreme authority means nobody can check. That is supreme authority. But he is checked in so many ways. Sudāmā: But the rascals, they say that "This is his līlā." Prabhupāda: Līlā? Then I kick on your face. that is also my līlā. (laughter) Bali Mardana: What's that. Prabhupāda: I kick on your face. (More laughter) That will be my līlā. Where is this rascal now, at the present moment? Bali Mardana: Perhaps in Colorado. He has a big... Sudāmā: Yes, in America, mainland. Bali Mardana: He has a big following among the hippies of Colorado. Prabhupāda: Somebody said that I am talked in their camp that I am priest. I am priest. Bali Mardana: In their camp? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: Someone said that? Prabhupāda: Yes. They said that my movement is, I am priest. Because I worship Kṛṣṇa in the temple. In other words, I am not a philosopher; I am a priest. What it is made of, this surfer? Sudāmā: It's made of styrofoam. It's a plastic material that's very light and floats on the water. And then different polishing plastics. Prabhupāda: So, it is a costly thing. Sudāmā: They cost about close to a hundred dollars. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bali Mardana: Gaurasundara and Siddhasvarūpa, they were encouraging the devotees to go and fly on them. Sudāmā: Many of them have them, have these boards. Prabhupāda: Eh? Sudāmā: Many of them have such boards. Bali Mardana: Instead of book distribution, they go in the ocean. [break] Is it a good idea for them to go to Māyāpura and chant? Prabhupāda: Where is that difficulty? Bali Mardana: Well, like, someone like Karandhara. He suggested for him to go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if he does not chant, that will be bad example. If he does not agree, then it is fallen down. Now he's denying to chant. He's denying to chant; he's indulging in sex. What does it mean? He'll be a bad example wherever he goes. Bali Mardana: Is that an example of free will, that someone can choose Kṛṣṇa and then turn away? That example of free will? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if you accept Kṛṣṇa, then you must follow what Kṛṣṇa says. If you don't follow Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of talking of Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām: [Bg. 9.14] "Always chanting about Me." That is mahātmā. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: [Bg. 9.13] "Mahātmā, those who are devotee, they are not under these material influence." Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: "the spiritual influence." So how he's accepted Kṛṣṇa? By his own concoction? He... If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, he must abide by the injunction of Kṛṣṇa. [break] Bali Mardana: ...that the disciple should not let outsiders touch the feet of his spiritual master. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Bali Mardana: In the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, in the purport. But in India so many people try to touch. Should they be restrained? Prabhupāda: No, that is... Spiritual master should be respected. Where it is said that? Nitāi: The Seventeenth Chapter, one purport where it talks about a brāhmaṇa woman who came to touch the feet of Lord Caitanya; immediately He went and jumped in the Ganges. You remember that section? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is... He's not a devotee. He's not a, he was not a disciple. Bali Mardana: But in India there are so many people. They're not disciples; they're not initiated by you. So are they in the same category? Prabhupāda: No, that case was different. Bali Mardana: So it is all right. Prabhupāda: Then the spiritual master has to go every time, to fall down? Because people will touch. That is natural. And he has to jump over the water every time? Nitāi: In the purport you gave recommendation that generally it is not a good practice to let them, unless they are at least your devotees. Prabhupāda: Generally, it is not practiced, but if people come, how can you check them? (pause) So we were talking about Darwin's theory, eh? What is that? Nitāi: It is survival of the fittest, his evolutionary theory? Prabhupāda: Now, we talked about that if you do not take my documentary, what is called, evidence, why shall I take your documentary? Bali Mardana: I think the only reason it is accepted is because it was very popular among the atheists. They said, "Oh, yes, let us support this idea." Prabhupāda: Yes, but there is theist class also. Bali Mardana: So whatever we put forward is at least if, is more authoritative than what they can propose 'cause ours is based on śāstra. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Satsvarūpa: They base many of their conclusions on finding of fossils, old remains. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Fossils, impressions of animals' bodies in the stone that are left there thousands of years. They gather all these... That's what Darwin's work mostly was. He would sail around the world and collect all these fossils, and make conclusions and write books. Prabhupāda: But where they will get fossils of old intelligent men? Satsvarūpa: Well, they say that they've found just skulls of very primitive men... Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot find because according to Vedic culture, the body's burned into ashes. Where you'll get the bones and fossils? Bali Mardana: You only come up with the primitive ones who are not civilized. Prabhupāda: We understand from the writings, not from the fossils and bones. The bones and fossils are already finished, but they kept their writing. Bali Mardana: Only the uncivilized people were buried. Prabhupāda: Suppose I am writing books. In future if you could not find my bones and fossils, but the books will prove what I was. So we have got the books. That is the real bones and fossils. Bali Mardana: They try to disprove... Prabhupāda: They cannot find out bones and fossils of Kṛṣṇa. Now, why they accept? Satsvarūpa: Nobody agreed... (tape garbled) *Prabhupāda: You have to accept authority... [break] ...authority of yourself, we have got authority also. We have got authority. We have got our books... [break] ...that Kali*-yuga has begun five thousand years but you say they do not believe in... [break] ...these rascals. Although it is history... (end) Morning Walk -- January 23, 1974, Hawaii Prabhupāda: ...that sex is there. Sudāmā: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That is not missed. Sudāmā: No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, Bhāgavata says, viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Viṣaya, the four things-eating, sleeping, mating, defending*-in any condition of life they're available. They're available. It doesn't matter in what condition of life you are living, but these things are available. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Sarvataḥ means everywhere, in any condition. This is available. And still, people are busy for these four things. Good morning. (to passers-by) That is assured, that any condition of life, you'll have these four things. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ [SB 1.5.18]. Therefore we should not endeavor for these four things. That is already fixed. I'll get in any condition of life. Then? What for our energy should be employed? Which was not available, wandering up and down, beginning from the heavenly planet down to the Pluto's planet. This is a passenger ship? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: They stand there, and passengers come here? Through boats? Sudāmā: Yes. The ships like this go around the Orient, to japan and Indonesia. (japa) Are the shoes comfortable? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...available in any condition of life. People are making gorgeous arrangement for that thing. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Viṣaya, material necessities, they are available... *Passers*-by: Good morning. Prabhupāda: Good morning. In any condition of life: birds, bees, insect, vagabond, wretched... Everyone will get it. [break] ...motorcars, in your country. If somehow or other, one can secure one motorcar, then life is secure. Bali Mardana: He very feels secure. Sudāmā: Yes, yes. He feels he has freedom. He can go anywhere. Prabhupāda: Only depend on motorcar. Sudāmā: Yes. Now everyone is very fearful because there is no gas for the motorcar. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: They say that a man walking in the street does not feel so big, but once he gets behind the wheel of the motorcar he becomes very puffed up. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is natural. He thinks, "I am motorcar." He identifies. (japa) Satsvarūpa: We say sense gratification is available for everyone, but they don't agree. They think, "If I don't have this nice apartment it's not the same as sleeping in a bad condition." Prabhupāda: Bad condition, good condition, that is another thing. But you get it. You get it. Bad condition, good condition, that is my consideration, but things are available. Even the best apartment in India, that is not a good apartment for America. This is simply my mental concoction: "This is good; that is bad." I am thinking, "It is the best;" another may think, "Oh, it is lowest." The hog is thinking stool is very nice food, and I am thinking, "What is this nonsense thing?" So "best" and "good", it is simply mental concoction, it has no value. Just like these western people, what is their ultimate standard of best, nobody knows. Nobody knows. Just like hundred years before, there was no skyscraper building, but now even best skyscraper building is not best. So where is the standard of best and... It is all mental concoction. Sudāmā: Just like in New York, at one time the Empire State Building was the biggest; now they have built two buildings that are the biggest in the world now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now someday it will be lowest. Satsvarūpa: Yes, already in Chicago they're building one, a Sears building. Bali Mardana: Bigger. Prabhupāda: So what is the standard of best and lowest. There is no standard. This is called māyā. Bali Mardana: Many philosophers have tried to define what is the best. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Many philosophers have tried to define what is the best. Prabhupāda: They cannot. Bali Mardana: It's not possible. Prabhupāda: They cannot. It is not possible. Bali Mardana: They have no Absolute. *Prabhupāda: No. They have no idea. Mental speculators, they are no good. (wind noise) Mental speculator means harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā manorathena [SB 5.18.12], manorathena by the mental plane, airship, he's simply hovering. They have no standard. Bali Mardana: So a devotee does not have to cogitate too much. Whatever satisfies Kṛṣṇa, that is best. Prabhupāda: That's all. Kṛṣṇa is best. That's all. And whatever is done for Kṛṣṇa, that is best. That's all. We have got a standard; *therefore we are satisfied. "Even in distressed condition, because Kṛṣṇa has given me distress, so-called distress, it is not distress. So this is all right." Because here, distress or happiness, they are simply mental concoction. Dvaite bhadra... I am in the material existence*-that is my distress. That distress has to be removed, not this temporary distress or happiness. (japa) Satsvarūpa: But when we try to help people in that way, they don't care for our help. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Satsvarūpa: We try to give people that. They don't want that; they want temporary help. Bali Mardana: Every day? Prabhupāda: Every day. Why I am taking so much trouble? Everything enlightened. Bali Mardana: I was reading yesterday about the talks between Uddhava and Maitreya and Kṛṣṇa, and it described that previously Uddhava was one of the eight Vasus who desired to associate with the Lord. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: What is exactly the position of the Vasus? Prabhupāda: Vasus, they are demigods. Before appearance of Kṛṣṇa, some of the exalted demigods were ordered to come and arrange for His arrival. So Uddhava arrived, and many others arrived. They were coming from heavenly planets. Bali Mardana: Bhīṣmadeva was also one of the Vasus previously. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Aṣṭa*-vasu. Bali Mardana: In Bhīṣmadeva's instructions, while he was dying, one of the questions that he was asked is "Which is more powerful, action or destiny, karma?" He replied that they are both very powerful, but of the two, action was more powerful. *Prabhupāda: Time. Reaction. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... What is that bird? (tropical*-sounding bird in background) Bird, or something else? Bali Mardana: Bird. Prabhupāda: That sound? [break] ...our philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they actually want to be happy. This is a fact. Not sentimentally, but scientifically, philosophically. Let them... Let the biggest scientists, biggest philosopher, come and understand. [break] ...gone away, but nobody saw. Bali Mardana: Yeah, they saw, but it was very faint. It was not as bright as was expected. Sudāmā: It did not collide. It did not hit the earth. Prabhupāda: Oh. But only they saw? Bali Mardana: No, it was visible to the naked eye, but very faintly, not as bright as it was predicted. Sudāmā: They had predicted that it was going to be as bright as three... Prabhupāda: ...millions times... Sudāmā: ...moons, like a full moon night. [break] Bali Mardana: ...predictions were going around about the end of the earth was coming... Sudāmā: End of the earth. Forty... They said they had forty days, forty days left. *Prabhupāda: How rascals they are, just see. I never believed. How shall I believe? I know it cannot be done. That Easy Journey to Other Planets, I have described the moon-going-plan*-a childish. Did I not? Sudāmā: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: The cloud is not big, as big as the sky. Similarly, the material world is also... It is insignificant in comparison to the spiritual world. Some portion of it is covered by māyā just like this cloud. (japa) *Passer*-by: Good morning. *Prabhupāda: Good morning. (japa) [break] ...jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca. How one bird or flower should be beautiful, nicely decorated? Kṛṣṇa gives His energy only a little and everything is there. Svā-bhāvikī jñāna... Just as if a very good artist has painted nicely. Svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. How to do it, that Kṛṣṇa knows. That is His inconceivable energy. Sudāmā: So then like the sunset; that is also Kṛṣṇa's artistry? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. [break] ...māṁ paśyati sarvatra sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati. That is advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness: everywhere one sees Kṛṣṇa, and in Kṛṣṇa he sees everything. Therefore he sees Kṛṣṇa only. He sees nothing. And the atheist will say, "Where is Kṛṣṇa?" And advanced devotee will say, "Everywhere Kṛṣṇa, antar bahiḥ, inside and outside." Nato nāṭya dharo yathā (?). Sudāmā: Then it is a devotee's misconception if he thinks that Kṛṣṇa is outside everywhere, but He's not in the temple. Because I remember... Prabhupāda: He's not a devotee, he's a rascal. Sudāmā: Yes, because in one of your... in *Nectar of Devotion*, you explain about some Māyāvādīs. Sometimes they think that Kṛṣṇa is not in the Deity but He is everywhere else. Prabhupāda: That is his rascaldom. And these ships require huge quantities of petrol. Bali Mardana: Many ships now, they are lying idle in the ports for lack of petrol. (end) Room Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: My Godbrother's son*-in-law, they came (indistinct). Guru dāsa: Any service for me? Prabhupāda: What you are doing there now? Guru dāsa: Um, I've just been talking with Saurabha about the Māyāpur plans to present at this conference in Vancouver, Exposition. We're making a presentation there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guru dāsa: So we're getting that together. Tomorrow I'm leaving. Prabhupāda: For Vancouver? *Guru dāsa: No, I'm go..., tomorrow I'm going to join Bhavānanda for a week, Bhavānanda Swami. Then I go to Delhi to see... And I'm also going to Bhuvaneśvara for Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Then I'm going to Delhi to see that American Ambassador again about putting our name on the food list, Indo*-American food list, then Vṛndāvana, then Vancouver. Prabhupāda: So (indistinct) Delhi. Then? Guru dāsa: New York. Prabhupāda: New York. Delhi to New York? Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: I think it is direct. That I can do. Guest (1) (Indian man): (Hindi with Prabhupāda) In relation with our business also, I am thinking of going. Prabhupāda: No business. (laughter) Don't go. Business is this hari kīrtana. Guest (1): (Hindi) I just said that I had thought of that in my own different way also. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guru dāsa: People carry on business for happiness and enough to eat and enough clothing. That, no separate endeavor is necessary. Kṛṣṇa gives it all, and more happiness. We can attest to that because we did business. All of us were businessmen. Prabhupāda: (Hindi with guest) Oh, I see that are (indistinct). Guest (1): No, I am not leaving. Whether Kṛṣṇa gives me fifty rupees or five million rupees, it does not make much difference, because I am in the line, because I am in the line. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest (1): I may leave any time. Prabhupāda: No, no that's all right. Guest (1): I may leave any time also. Prabhupāda: That is our purpose to (indistinct). Guest (1): Unfortunately some things happened, and some court matters are going on. Prabhupāda: Court? Guest (1): Court matters, some, some law suits, etc. which I have filed which aggregate to the extent of about crore rupees or so. Prabhupāda: Hm. Guest (1): Oh, I mean I'll get that much. That could be as good amount as you (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Where? Where? Your claim? Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: You have to, you have to pay so much stamping fee. Guest (1): No. The maximum stamp duty to be paid is fifteen thousand. Even if you've got a claim of fifteen crore, fifteen thousand is the maximum stamp duty you have to pay. You don't have to pay more. Prabhupāda: Fifteen thousand you have to pay? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...in this age, Kali. Guest (1): (Hindi) ...he owes me money and I couldn't get my money back from him. *Prabhupāda: If you have no money, then you cannot get justice, because he's claiming it is right claim, but if he had no fifteen thousand, then he could not claim it. Fifteen thousand is there, then (indistinct), so on , so on. So anyone who has no money, he cannot get justice in Kali*-yuga. (Hindi) Guest (1): A lot of that fifteen thousand is exempted in some cases, but even then you have to figure out some (indistinct) and remain in the, I mean present yourself in the court in the mood to argue and talk and all that things. So naturally if you don't have even that much, you have to forego (indistinct). What you're saying is hundred percent true. Yes. It's like that. Prabhupāda: And nowadays bribe also. Guest: Yeah. This is a must. *Prabhupāda: Fourth*-class, śūdra (indistinct), bribe. Guest (1): (indistinct) one of the partners. (indistinct) another partner. Guest (2): (indistinct) The demand it as a bribe also. Guest (1): (indistinct) your partner like that? *Guru dāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali*-yuga. Guest (1): One thing is there, when I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get... Prabhupāda: If you're getting... Guest (1): I am liberated that way already. I don't care about the liberation of tomorrow. Yeah, that's true. Guru dāsa: Yes, I understand. We are in the same boat. Guest (1): Actually you are much advanced, so it will be very difficult for you to.... I am still at the lower level and struggling against those things. Guru dāsa: Only advanced because I'm putting more time in. Otherwise, not more advanced. Guest (1): Yeah. Capacity has improved. Our capacity is still limited. We are still embroiled in the... *Guru dāsa: Advanced means such and such a person has spent so many times in the business house, twenty*-five years, he gets a gold watch. The only reason I may be more advanced is 'cause I get peace of mind, too, so I stay longer. [break] Guest (2): We have got an appointment. We have got.... [break] Guest (3): ...somewhere. Saturday they close at, by 3 or 3:30 so I want to go before that. Prabhupāda: So, you can go before 3:30. There is no difficulty (laughter) Guest (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) (laughter) Guest (3): (Sanskrit) bhijāyate. *Prabhupāda: So I have seen this instrument. Destiny is very strong. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Therefore śāstra says that you try for that thing which was not possible in many other lives. In each life everyone gets father, mother, son, and the father's duty to son, son, that is going on. When you take birth as demigod-Indra, Candra, Varuṇa-or as human being or as animal the care-taking business is there. Even the small ant during rainy season, when there is so much flood, they take the eggs on the head-you have seen the red ant?*-and finding out some place. The care-taking is there. Even the birds, a sparrow. So when their, the season for laying down eggs, they bring some straws, and keep like that to make a nest for taking care of the eggs. So this taking care by the father and mother, beginning from the ant up to the Indra, Candra devas, that is there. *Pradyumna: (chanting Sanskrit to Bhagavad*-gītā 1.28) [break] Prabhupāda: "...with my family member shall come to fight with me, so what shall I say, that I have to kill my nephew, I have to kill my brother, I have to kill my grandfather, this is the fight? No, no I am not going to fight. Let them all fight." That is natural. So read it. Pradyumna: Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Yes, viparītāni. "I came to fight, to gain my kingdom, but I see the opposite." Viparītāni. "I'll not be able to enjoy my kingdom by killing them." (indistinct) Go on. Pradyumna: Ah, translation? Prabhupāda: No, no. You can go on. Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Translation. Pradyumna: "I do not see how any good can come from killing my own kinsmen in this battle, nor can I, my dear Kṛṣṇa, desire any subsequent victory, kingdom or happiness." Prabhupāda: Naturally this will be. Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: Generally we improve our material condition just to become happy with relatives. When we construct a new house, we invite relatives. So they may come, they will say, "Oh, you have done very nice,'' and he is also pleased, "My relatives, they have seen.'' But "If all the relatives are killed, then how it will be possible for me to enjoy the kingdom?" Yeṣām arthe kāṅkṣitam rājyam. Pradyumna: Bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Prabhupāda: Yes, bhogāḥ sukhāni ca. Then? Pradyumna: Ta ime 'vasthitā yuddhe. Prabhupāda: "They, for whom I wanted this kingdom, they are in my path. I have to kill them. So what kind of fight is this?" Then? Pradyumna: Prabhupāda: "I have to kill them, all the religious and family members." Then? Pradyumna: Etān na hantum icchāmi. Prabhupāda: "I don't like. I don't want this fight." (laughs) Pradyumna: Ghnato 'pi madhusūdana. Prabhupāda: "Then let them kill me. I'll tolerate that. But I am not going to kill them." Then? Pradyumna: *Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś... [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one.'' This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e... [Bg. 18.66]. "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, to do that.'' So he said, kariṣye vacanam, "Yes.'' That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. They say, "What kind of God He is?" because they have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this... Devotee: In New York. Prabhupāda: New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that "How it is good, Swamiji, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?'' Although Arjuna was making own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him *Gītā* and then inducing to change his plan: "Go on, fight!'' (end) Room Conversation -- February 9, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Seven hundred? Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: On the other side of (indistinct). I think it crosses... Prabhupāda: In USA.... [break] Guru dāsa: Even car, the roads are so big. Prabhupāda: Ah, bus service is all right? So transportation for the USA. Take Greyhound. (Hindi) [break] Guest (1) (Indian man): I don't think these people have seen the car here, have you? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Have you seen the car? Prabhupāda: I think it is now obsolete. Guest (1): Obsolete now. I don't see it now. Guru dāsa: Train? Guest (1): No. (indistinct) (laughter) Just like (indistinct). Prabhupāda: With car, there is a platform like this. It moves on the roof of the house. (laughter) (Hindi) Helicopter. Guest (1): Helicopter. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ...New York, goes to Los Angeles and then to Honolulu, then Tokyo, then Hong Kong, then New Delhi... No. Hong Kong to Bangkok, Bangkok to New Delhi, New Delhi to Karachi, Karachi to Beirut, then, I think, London, then again New York. One, one round. (Hindi) One round. Guest (1): (Hindi) [break] (laughter) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (laughing) [break] Fifty crores. Guest (1): Huh? More than that. (laughter) Why not? *Prabhupāda: Not fifty crores. Fifty*-five lakhs. *Guest (1): Fifty*-five lakhs. Oh. Prabhupāda: This George Harrison, he came there. Guest (1): George Harrison? He has donated in cash for that building? Prabhupāda: Not that building. Guest (1): That building. Prabhupāda: He has purchased for me. Guest (1): Acchā. Prabhupāda: It is named Bhaktivedanta Manor. Guest (1): Acchā. Guest (2) (Indian man): Bhaktivedanta....? Prabhupāda: Manor. Guest (2): Manor. Prabhupāda: He contributed for this book $19,000. Practically he gave start. Yes. No. Starting was that *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. I printed. Then I printed this book. Then by selling this book, this book, that book, like that. He is very good boy. He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Chanting? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi). Now what is the latest record? Guru dāsa: "Kṛṣṇa, I miss You. Kṛṣṇa, where are you?" Guest (1): The song? Prabhupāda: There was... Guest (1): Song? Prabhupāda: Yes, song. His song, as soon as one record is published, then millions is sold. Then millions. Guest (1): I see. And this is the song he has sung, on the recording. Wonderful. Mahāprabhu has chosen right, perfect method of prasāda. Prabhupāda: No, all the musicians, they're attracted to me. Big, big musicians. Another is, what is his, Dylan? Guru dāsa: Bob Dylan. Prabhupāda: Bob Dylan. He is as good as, or more than. He has asked one of my students, "Ask Prabhupāda, what can I do for him.'' He is reading my books. There is another Indian, Ravi Shankar, he also came. He also attracted. Guest (1): He's also attracted. Prabhupāda: Bombay (laughing), all the cinema artists, they're attracted with the movement. One, one that actress Vijaya? Guru dāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guru dāsa: Vaijayanti Mala. Prabhupāda: Vaijayanti. Guest (1): Vaijayanti Mala. She's a very famous actress. *Prabhupāda: She's very nice girl, actually. (aside:) Namaskar. (Hindi) [break] (Hindi*-break)My eldest son was born in 1921. Guest (2): I was born in 1917. Prabhupāda: Seventeen. (Hindi conversation with many breaks) ...trustees. Because he contributes. He contributes and that boy, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he also contributes. [break] (laughter) You are not religious, huh? (laughter) [break] *Guest (3): ... stay at Rādhā*-Rāmaṇa in Puruṣottama Gosvāmī's old house, in Rādhā-Rāmaṇa. Lately I'm staying at Bon Mahārāja's āśrama. (indistinct-break) Prabhupāda: So what is the condition of the work, finished? Guru Dāsa: Not finished. [break] Prabhupāda: He requires so many things. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whether he is connected(?). Encourage him to the deity worship, Yamunā. What can we do? (pause) So wood has come? Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So they're arranging for roofing? Guru dāsa: Any for roof? No, this is for scaffolding. Actually, also some wood planks for the roof to be casted with the steel. So that plank wood has also come, and the (Hindi) for casting, uh, for scaffolding has also come. And Guṇārṇava spoke to Tejīyas on the telephone, and he said that within a few days the steel would be ready. So I'm also going to go to Delhi the day after tomorrow and check on the steel, and I think we'll bring it down and start. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Yes, we'll do that. I'll do that. [break] ...so want to learn Deity worship in Vṛndāvana. I also will learn that Deity worship. Prabhupāda: (indistinct), they are doing very nice. Guru dāsa: Hm. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Hm. That's nice, that's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men at the time of ārati. Guru dāsa: I was wondering. In Imlitala they do one man, but I was thinking three is very... At that JK temple in Kanpur, three men. That's nice. Prabhupāda: Three men (indistinct). Guru dāsa: Very nice. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) they do gorgeous, most gorgeous. You learn to do like that here in Vṛndāvana. Guru dāsa: Hm. Prabhupāda: Very gorgeous. All decorated, (indistinct), gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas. Keep at least twelve trained devotees. At least twelve. (indistinct) [break] Guru dāsa: Some people make the, cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guru dāsa: Cut the coat to fit the pocket. Prabhupāda: That's right. Guru dāsa: Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice. *Prabhupāda: That is good. One who desires well*-being(?)... Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: ....he is called Sūrya. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he is determined(?). Guru dāsa: Yes. And he is not motivated. Prabhupāda: No. Guru dāsa: He is very good, good. Kapoor also is increasing more and more, very much favorable. (indistinct) also is favorable. He is nice. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: Somewhat influential, but.... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...that, but now from Rādhā*-Dāmodara Temple we cannot take anything. Guru dāsa: No. Prabhupāda: So how he will maintain? Guru dāsa: I don't know. He must have some money. Prabhupāda: And what Panchu is doing? Guru dāsa: Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much. Prabhupāda: How he has left for some service. Guru dāsa: Maybe. I can inquire. Prabhupāda: No. There is no... Why you should go? Let them do their own work. Guru dāsa: Yes. Devotee: I can sweep over here? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Why not? Guru dāsa: Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the Śaivite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment... Prabhupāda: But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed. Guru dāsa: Yes. Printed receipt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Printed form. Guru dāsa: So I should again pay to Gauracand Gosvāmī? I think so. Prabhupāda: This, this, this (indistinct) complete... Prabhupāda: But that, that will be complete soon. Saurabha says it will be complete soon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Next time I, when I come... Devotee: Come, it, roof should be ready. Prabhupāda: ...I want to see that it is, roof is complete, and then we begin. So another thing: should I take rates for the marble from others, or we shall accept this? Guru dāsa: I've already taken rates, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guru dāsa: And now this man, Nārāyaṇa Das, says that yesterday they said that it did..., the rates did not include people to put the marble in. It did not include laborers to install. Prabhupāda: No, no. They have, they have to order this, because (indistinct) include everything. Guru dāsa: If it includes, it is a good rate. Prabhupāda: Ah. *Guru dāsa: But in, in Makrana I got the rate seven*-fifty, eight rupees. Seven, seven-fifty, eight for dangri(?), that kind. And about two-fifty to three extra for labor. So if they charge eight or seven, including labor and delivery and polishing, it is good rate, but if it is just delivery it is not a good rate. Prabhupāda: So, Mr. (indistinct) said that he'll send the contract form. So we have to see. Guru dāsa: If it does not include the delivery and the polishing... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) include delivery, polishing, everything. Guru dāsa: If it does, it's good rate. Also this black marble, I've gotten the price in Makrana four, four rupees and fifty paise. Prabhupāda: That is excluding labor. Guru dāsa: Yes. So if they can do it for five, it is good rate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: But if they do it five for just the marble, it is not good rate. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not good. It is included everything, that I was informed by... Guru dāsa: Then it's, then it is good. It is very good for us. Prabhupāda: Then we shall accept. Guru dāsa: Oh, yes. It is good quotation. But he is not willing to do the bank guarantee. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: The pound, the huṇḍa, what is it called? Prabhupāda: Huṇḍi. Guru dāsa: Huṇḍi. Prabhupāda: No. That we shall... He is not bringing all the goods at a time. Guru dāsa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Partially. We have to pay. Guru dāsa: All right. [break] Śrīla Prabhupāda, I want you to feel that we will do this, and this work, and spend frugally and thrifty. Prabhupāda: Very frugally. You have already become very unfrugal. Guru dāsa: I am agitated that you are anxious about it, because yes, I commit many mistakes, no doubt. Prabhupāda: So, that's all right. Don't commit more, that's all. Guru dāsa: Yes. But there's also some mistakes I have not committed. There's some very good things that have happened. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Don't commit mistake. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Devotee should not commit mistake. He's above it. Guru dāsa: But I want you to feel... Prabhupāda: No. It is my business to worry. Guru dāsa: Yes, yes. You are the best father I have. My father spared the rod. He spoiled me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: And you are not doing. Prabhupāda: But don't take, because I do not show the stick, don't take advantage of it. Guru dāsa: You have shown the stick, verbally. Prabhupāda: Now do it nicely. Keep me less anxiety. Guru dāsa: I want to do. Prabhupāda: It is natural when money is misspent, one who brings money is (indistinct). Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I take so much trouble and then.... That is, that is always (indistinct). Guru dāsa: Yes. I also would feel that way. Prabhupāda: So the money raised for the other business, that should be spent for that purpose. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the temple money... So you'll go to the bank tomorrow? Yes? Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which bank he has dispatched the 50,000? Guru dāsa: Yes, Syndicate. Prabhupāda: But they have not yet informed. How is that? He said he has already sent. Guru dāsa: He has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Who? Guru dāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guru dāsa: But the bank has not informed. Guṇārṇava is checking today. Prabhupāda: Telegrammed the money? Guru dāsa: Girirāja has telegrammed myself, directly... Prabhupāda: Oh. Guru dāsa: ....that he has sent it. Prabhupāda: When he has sent it? Guru dāsa: Telegrammed yesterday..., day before yesterday, evening. Prabhupāda: Day before yesterday. Guru dāsa: Evening. Prabhupāda: Evening. Guru dāsa: Late evening. Prabhupāda: So they must have received the money by today. Guru dāsa: Yes. Guṇārṇava is checking. (end) Room Conversation -- February 13, 1974, Våndävana Guru dāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guru dāsa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Pālikā was all right. Prabhupāda: How many of you went? *Guru dāsa: Most everyone, about twenty*-five. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) *Guru dāsa: At first they went, (indistinct) Kāliya, that Kāliya tree, and then Madana*-mohana, new and old, and then to the samādhi, (indistinct) samādhi, and then I left (indistinct). Dr. Kapoor came this morning? Devotee: No. Guru dāsa: No? Devotee: I wasn't here. I went to sleep for a few minutes. Prabhupāda: Thank you. You have come from where? Guest (1): Just now from the Hanumān Mandir, just down the road there, not far, but I'm, we're all from America. Prabhupāda: Here you are remaining there? Guest: We live there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Bhavan(?), a guesthouse just down (indistinct). Devotee: He's living (indistinct). Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darśana of Baba Nim Karoli. Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli? Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask... He requested a kīrtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kīrtana, if you, if you, if you wish. Prabhupāda: Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible? Guest: I, I don't know. I'm just... He asked me to come and request it, so... Prabhupāda: We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested. Guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (2): We have thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana. Prabhupāda: Thirty Westerners? Guest (1): Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Oh. That, I have no objection, (indistinct) those who are organizing. You are also staying? Guest (2): Yes. Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask. Guru dāsa: Do you have any, any other questions? Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment. Guru dāsa: You don't have to explain your presence in (indistinct). Guest (1): Thank you. Prabhupāda: Where is the Deity? Devotee: Taken on saṅkīrtana. Prabhupāda: Take your time and... Devotee: Saṅkīrtana, when you're able. Guru dāsa: She (Guest 3) was attending all the lectures at the pandal in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen her. Guru dāsa: And Philadelphia also. Prabhupāda: So, you understand our philosophy? Guest (3): Understand...? Prabhupāda: Our philosophy? Guest (1): Philosophy. Guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Kṛṣṇa (indistinct) time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities. Prabhupāda: Where? Guest (3): Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest (3): And we do the āratik and read all your books. Prabhupāda: Which book? Guest (3): *Śrī Īśopaniṣad*, Lord Caitanya, Kṛṣṇa book, (indistinct). Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke, with all the philosophers and refute them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Refute them all (indistinct). Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy. Guru dāsa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin. Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good. Guru dāsa: They tried, but they weren't, they weren't God conscious. They were (indistinct). Hayagrīva: The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure, figure it out with their minds. *Prabhupāda: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, they (indistinct). They are lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider the body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize (indistinct). If your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhāgavata, Śrīmad Bhāgavata, it is said that yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ: [SB 10.84.13] "Anyone who considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." What is your philosophy? You consider this body as the self? Guest (1): I... Oh, no. Prabhupāda: You? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: Very good. So we begin by (indistinct)? Śyāmasundara: Uh, from the Rādhā Dāmodara. I don't know. Guru dāsa: I've got three keys to that room open. Śyāmasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements. Prabhupāda: So, what is your philosophy? Guest (1): My philosophy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the ātmān, is the one absolute existence, but is has a delusive power whereby... Prabhupāda: Who is that God? Delusive power? Guest (1): God, or... Devotee: God? Guest (1): ...the māyā, the māyā of God makes, makes a man identify himself with his body, but it is, that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes..., it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are..., he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace. Prabhupāda: By God's grace, what happens? Guest (1): One cannot... One achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's..., one no longer identifies himself with his body. Prabhupāda: So result of loving God, what it is? Guest (1): Without loving God? Prabhupāda: No. Devotee: Result. Prabhupāda: Result is what? Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes. Prabhupāda: What will come? Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God. Devotee: What is that union? Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it, it's called yoga, or it's samādhi. I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read. Prabhupāda: Now what is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity? Guest (1): What is the form of unity? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): My understanding is that, that, um, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving... Prabhupāda: Beyond form. Guest (1): ...through loving the form of God... It has form and yet it's formless. It's both..., has form and formless. Prabhupāda: What is that formlessness, and what is that form? Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? My own knowledge is just very slight. Prabhupāda: You are not learning there, where you are staying? Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Mahārāja..., this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest. Prabhupāda: But love, if you have no form where to love? The air? Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti, you love the form of God. Prabhupāda: But you said it's formless. Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the... Prabhupāda: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy? Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love? Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me. Prabhupāda: What does he teach? Guest (1): He said... Prabhupāda: He teaches form? Guest (1): He says that... Yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumānji. Prabhupāda: Who is Hanumān? Guest (1): Hanumān is the breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guest (1): The breath of Rāma, svasa. Rāma*-ke-svasa, breath of Rāma. Prabhupāda: Breath? Guest (1): The breath. Hanumān was the... Rāma, Rāma once asked Hanumān, "What do you see? How do you see Me?'' and Hanumān answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve you." Prabhupāda: That's so nonsense. Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know... Guru dāsa: When you remember who you are you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela, his disciple, I'm Nam Karoli. Guest (1): Nim Karoli. Guru dāsa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta, we're His servant. Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact. Guru dāsa: When Hanumān, he's a great bhakta. We should follow in his footsteps. "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee.'' Very humble. Then we can make advancement [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. *Guest (1): Mahārāja is teaching*-you asked his teaching-these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve... Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: How you can serve whole universe? Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself... Prabhupāda: You love? To whom you love? Guest (1): Whoever you're with. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): Whatever, whatever... Prabhupāda: That is... Suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression? Guest (1): Well certainly every being in the universe is a part of me. Prabhupāda: (indistinct). You can place your love to a particular person or particular community. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Does it mean you love the whole universe? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American? Guest (1: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe? Guest (1): If I love America? Prabhupāda: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows. Guest (1): Acchā. Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men... Prabhupāda: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance? Guest (1): You do your best. Prabhupāda: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love. Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is... Prabhupāda: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love. Guest (1): Well, certainly every... Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love the universe. It has already... Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe... Prabhupāda: But you cannot love each being. That is my point. Devotee: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being... Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe. Devotee: She said that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being then you can love the universe. Prabhupāda: Then there is impure being and pure being? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it a fact? Devotee: Is that true? Prabhupāda: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being. Guest (1): It seems that way. Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality*-purity of the soul. Guest (1): You love God. Prabhupāda: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul. Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...to my eyes. Prabhupāda: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure. Guest (1): That's very difficult. Guest (3): I don't know what your saying. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul? Guest (1): He was asking... Prabhupāda: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure. Devotee: How can we distinguish? Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure, there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as māyā... Śrī Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā, His power of delusion, He can...., He makes you think, He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world. Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the māyā comes? Guest (1): From... I don't know, I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His līlā. Guru dāsa: You stated that Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. Is this correct Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Guru dāsa: That Śrī Kṛṣṇa, Lord Kṛṣṇa makes us see impurity. He mentioned... Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance. Guru dāsa: Well which is first? Guest (1): Which is first? Which, ignorance or what? Guru dāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa make us in ignorance? Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it. Guru dāsa: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda maybe you can explain that. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guru dāsa: Does Kṛṣṇa makes us ignorant or are we ignorant? Prabhupāda: We are. Guru dāsa: Yes. Guest (1): We are. Guru dāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: As he said, when you forget, you are in ignorance. Guest (1): Yes. Guru dāsa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us? Prabhupāda: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance. Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness. Prabhupāda: He knows that. Guest (1): The sense of egoism, I and me and mine is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing. Prabhupāda: That God and you are different, because you forget God, (indistinct). Guru dāsa: (indistinct) .... and we forget, so they must be different. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. Guest (1): Actually that's the best attitude. Guru dāsa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said it seems, but we're saying not seems... Guest (1): That's because my, I've read some other things, some other types of thoughts. Now... Prabhupāda: Now, (indistinct), the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it? Guest (1): Yes, that follows. Prabhupāda: Then, how you become ignorant? Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain. Prabhupāda: Everything is mystery. Guest (1): Is that your... Is that a mystery? Guru dāsa: No. Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good. Guru dāsa: (indistinct). Śrīla Prabhupāda. He has made us, oṁ ajñāna timirāndasya, that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem, By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes. Śyāmasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own. Guest (1): No, you can't. Guru dāsa: Prabhupāda was the other day saying that we're the, we have the science of love of God. Many people say, the material scientists say perhaps or about 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came. Five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship. Prabhupāda: This is very difficult for the Māyāvādī philosophers to answer, that everyone is God but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant? In māyā. So māyā becomes better than God? Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant (indistinct) God, how it happens? (indistinct). God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God he is, that he becomes ignorant sometimes? Guru dāsa: And if it's Kṛṣṇa's yogamāyā that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Kṛṣṇa's God. Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of māyā. He, Kṛṣṇa's pure. Guru dāsa: Kṛṣṇa's the Lord of everything. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Kṛṣṇa never forgets. Guru dāsa: Māyā's also Kṛṣṇa's servant. Guest (1): Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Now (indistinct) That's right. If Kṛṣṇa does not forget, then Kṛṣṇa is God, isn't it? Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then why not take Kṛṣṇa līlā study? Why go to others? Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability, I've read the *Gītā*, the Bhāgavata. Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa says, what Kṛṣṇa says, if Kṛṣṇa is God and Kṛṣṇa is never forgetful, then why not go to Kṛṣṇa? *Guru dāsa: He says he's read the Gītā and the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So what has come? Prabhupāda: Reading is not, I mean to say... Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: ...to understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7], there is no more greater truth than Me. Bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29], I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. So why should you go to others if you think that Kṛṣṇa is God, there is no greater personality than Kṛṣṇa? Take the instruction from Kṛṣṇa. It is very easy. Guest (1): Where is Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Huh? To take instruction from Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me. *Prabhupāda: So, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], you give up everything just surrender unto Me. So if you surrender (indistinct), but if you don't that is your business. Guest (1): How does one surrender? Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You do not know then, you have to learn who I will surrender, but the position is this, Kṛṣṇa says that you surrender unto Me. You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: "(indistinct) now. Now sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep(?) me. That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, surrender. That means "If you like kill me, I throw down my weapon. If you like, save me." So He is the Supreme. If He likes He can kill me, if He likes He can save me, so I am subordinate. How can, I can do equally Kṛṣṇa? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator? Devotee: Can't be. Guest (1): He is the Lord (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Śyāmasundara: The thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless beyond Kṛṣṇa, the first... Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: If he has read Bhagavad*-gītā, that he cannot say, because Kṛṣṇa says brahmaṇo ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā, I am the resort of Brahman. So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, even Brahman emanates from Me, and actually it is so. Just like the sunshine (indistinct) sun globe. Although the sunshine is universe(?), but still dependent on the sun globe. Guest (1): Of course that's true. There's nothing beyond Kṛṣṇa, of course. Prabhupāda: That's good(?). Devotee: Very nice (indistinct). Guest (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Very good. He's(?) good boy. Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question. Prabhupāda: Hm? Śyāmasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śyāmasundara: Then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose. Śyāmasundara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose, that only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says you do it. Śyāmasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct), He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you accept, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjārī, somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is (indistinct), somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order. Guru dāsa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Kṛṣṇa satisfies everyone, (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Kṛṣṇa we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Kṛṣṇa, I am not going to fight.'' That is not surrender. Guest (1): "I'll do whatever you want, but don't ask me to fight." *Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad*-gītā he said "Yes, I shall do that.'' So long I deny Kṛṣṇa that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes.'' Then this unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is dependence(?), and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73], my illusion is now over. That is (indistinct). Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot, that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "both you and me and all these soldiers and Kings they existed before, now we are existing and we shall exist in future(?). So, that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise your existence(?), mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be. Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask what is, what is God's ultimate goal? What is, why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations... Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance. "All right enjoy (indistinct),'' and giving instruction also that you enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again. Just like a father. Children wants to play in the (indistinct). "All right, you play.'' Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. (indistinct), they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right enjoy". And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that "now you give up all this (indistinct) come back, then you (indistinct).'' He created for you. Same example I always give. Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating, it is unnecessary, it's premature, construction of jail work(?). But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you, you enjoy to your fullest extent.'' And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. Then Kṛṣṇa says that, "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be accepted.'' But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda, to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say "Mr. such and such, you sit down here, try to become void,'' how long you shall do that, void? Guest (1): No, that's impossible. *Prabhupāda: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (Guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. (indistinct*-break) Dr. Kapoor: As I understand (indistinct). The export minister (indistinct). (indistinct) C. D. Gupta, the old chief minister, you see. He is coming and I take they have arranged a program in his honor. I don't know how they will make this program fit in. I don't think..., huh? [break] Prabhupāda: In the road they are announcing that Śrī Bhaktivedanta Swami American śiṣyas... *Dr. Kapoor: I heard the announcement but that was on the (indistinct) hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtana (indistinct). You have your (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: The other program is on behalf of... Prabhupāda: But we don't want. *Dr. Kapoor: Hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtana mandal(?). Prabhupāda: Acchā. Dr. Kapoor: That is exclusively for you. Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Dr. Kapoor: But I don't know how they have arranged with this other program but I was told that this C. D. Gupta, the ex*-chief minister is coming. Guest (Indian man): At Śrīji Mandir? Dr. Kapoor: Śrīji Mandir. (indistinct conversation in background) I was told by responsible person that C. D. Gupta is coming to see the temple at 4 o'clock. I don't know. At any rate I may be wrong. It's (indistinct) you see. They shouldn't make the two programs coincide. (pause) Program is working wonders through you? Prabhupāda: It is by your blessings. Guest: (indistinct). Prabhupāda: I do not know how (indistinct) making plans. I am sometimes myself puzzled. (laughter) Dr. Kapoor: Yes, because you are just an instrument (laughter). Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: You are just an instrument, you see. Prabhupāda: Just like Kavirāja Gosvāmī also writes that I do not know how things are coming, but with my hand is getting written. It is something like that. Dr. Kapoor: Yes, yes. It cannot be, cannot but be (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. Even by his consciousness it acts faultlessly. Dr. Kapoor: It acts immediately. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: Yes (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Ahaituki. Dr. Kapoor: Huh? Prabhupāda: Dr. Kapoor: Ahaituki. Hmm. *Prabhupāda: Jñāna*-vairāgya, janayaty āśu, ahaituki. Nobody knows how we do. Dr. Kapoor: That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: That's true. But the wonder is that it didn't act so far, you see, it didn't act when Bon Mahārāja went up. It didn't act when a proper program, and a number of other people, you see. It has started acting only now, (laughter). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you know what the address of Indore is? Prabhupāda: What? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Address of Indore? [break] Dr. Kapoor: (Bengali).... Just that I was saying that we require you see, in this age. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: Just that I was saying. Prabhupāda: Simply they were binding or something else. Dr. Kapoor: No, not only the outside, (laughter), the outside, and the people particularly in the west, you see, will not be impressed simply with the outside. *Prabhupāda: (indistinct). Our Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, you have seen it? Dr. Kapoor: Huh? *Prabhupāda: I am presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Dr. Kapoor: Huh. *Prabhupāda: So that Bhagavad*-gītā as it is published by MacMillan Company. Dr. Kapoor: I haven't read it through, but I saw the publication. Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are having every year one edition. Dr. Kapoor: Hmm. I see. Wonderful. Prabhupāda: Yes, for the last, it has begun from 1968, it is still going on, every year, they publish and they send me royalty $2,000. Dr. Kapoor: Good. Guru dāsa: (indistinct) has read *Nectar of Devotion*. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: (indistinct) has read *Nectar of Devotion*. Dr. Kapoor: *Nectar of Devotion* I have read. That's wonderfully done. Prabhupāda: You like it? Dr. Kapoor: It's nectar, really. Prabhupāda: Doctor Kapoor, what is your age now? I think you are a little younger than me. Dr. Kapoor: I think I am (indistinct) younger than you. Prabhupāda: Ah, what is your age now? *Dr. Kapoor: I am sixty*-two, now, sixty-three, sixty-three. Prabhupāda: Ten years. Not ten years, nine years. Dr. Kapoor: Nine years. Prabhupāda: Yes, because when you were a student, at that time we were family man. Dr. Kapoor: Yes, when I had just finished my university career, I think... Prabhupāda: In Allahabad, when you were living at that... Dr. Kapoor: Gauḍīya Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Gauḍīya Maṭha, I think you were student then. Dr. Kapoor: I had just, I think, I was a research student then. I had just taken my MA and I was working as a research scholar. I met Giri Mahārāja in 1931 when he did some (indistinct) at Nainital. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Kapoor: He first introduced me to Mahāprabhu, you see, or introduced Mahāprabhu to me. You see before that I was a scholar. Prabhupāda: But your teeth are very strong. Dr. Kapoor: Teeth (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: You're having strong teeth. Dr. Kapoor: They are, so long as you don't know that I have not real ones. (laughter) Devotee: That is māyā. (more laughing by Dr. Kapoor) Prabhupāda: (Hindi). Dr. Kapoor: She was here only a couple of days ago. My youngest son was married on the 20th of this month... Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, I heard. Dr. Kapoor: So they came in that connection. Prabhupāda: (Hindi). Dr. Kapoor: I have two sons and two daughters. The eldest one is the one you know. Prabhupāda: Oh, in Kanpur. Dr. Kapoor: In Kanpur. Prabhupāda: Dhawan. Dr. Kapoor: Dhawan, Dhawan. Yes, she also knows you very well. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, I was Dhawan's guest sometimes. *Dr. Kapoor: You were his guest, yes, yes. My son*-in-law was telling me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: He was telling me. Prabhupāda: I think that gentleman is no longer alive. Dr. Kapoor: His father is no more. Prabhupāda: No, yes, I am speaking of the old Dhawan. Dr. Kapoor: Ah, I see. Prabhupāda: Even though he was a young man. Dr. Kapoor: Ah, he was a young man. When did you go to Kanpur? Prabhupāda: I think I went to Kanpur sometimes in the year 1956. Dr. Kapoor: 56? *Prabhupāda: Yes, 55. (Bengali*-greets visitor) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Śrīji Dr. Kapoor: Śrīji, Śrīji (Hindi). Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ... Kalau nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyathā. (Hindi). ...on this principle(?) I went, with determination. (Hindi) Yasya prasādad bhagavat prasādo **. [break] (Bengali) ...seventy dollars per month. Seventy dollars means seven hundred rupees. So expenditure was over 2,000 rupees according to our Indian calculation. Dr. Kapoor: And uh... Prabhupāda: The income was nil. Dr. Kapoor: Nil. How much money did you carry with you? Prabhupāda: Forty rupees. Dr. Kapoor: Forty rupees? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But I could not spend because there was no exchange for Indian currency, no (laughter). So it was kept as it is. When I came back in 1967, that was spent as my taxi fare (laughter). At that time it was spent. From Palam airport to Delhi, that Chippiwada. So they charged me thirty*-five rupees or forty rupees. So at that time it was spent, and 1967 there was heart attack. Dr. Kapoor: Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. I was hospitalized, but I did not like the hospital. So I thought that now I shall die, let me go back to Vṛndāvana. (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Yes, it was 1967, wasn't it. Prabhupāda: 1967, yes. Dr. Kapoor: So it was after the heart attack that you came here? Prabhupāda: Yes. At that time. Then there was repeated letters, come back, come back. So I returned in 1968. So, in spite of heart weakness, I worked. I suffered that weakness continually for one year. Dr. Kapoor: Naturally, naturally. Prabhupāda: Then I was taking Kavirāja's medicine. I took it from here, that Yogendranātha. That gave me good strength, and massage the body. Not taking bath in cold water. In this way, somehow or other, still going on. Dr. Kapoor: Now I think you would be more useful if you took more rest, spend as little as what Hare Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: What? Rest, (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: No, even then, (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Even if you go by plane. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: That means straight. So if you stay at one place that's a different kind of life, you see, it's not so strenuous. You move around from place to place... *Prabhupāda: But I have got sixty*-six branches, so if I do not go some time at least, they also become little depressed. Dr. Kapoor: That is true, but you'll have to find some way out. You have to... Prabhupāda: I have constituted one governing body as Prabhupāda desired, governing body, but still they are not so experienced. (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) You would more usefully because you are (indistinct) to reading and writing (indistinct) than going about. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Have a small center here in Vṛndāvana, and you should make this your permanent place for this. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Would Vṛndāvana not be more suitable. *Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana is very suitable, but (Hindi*-to other guests) Dr. Kapoor: I am going to inform something. I am pañca-śāstri(?). Prabhupāda: Oh! Dr. Kapoor: Ami vedante(?) gold medalist. I am gold medalist in Vaiṣṇava śāstra. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: If you let me, I wish to give life. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: sixty, about sixty. I want to give my life for this religion. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's (indistinct). Dr. Kapoor: Prabhupāda, let's meet. Prabhupāda: Oh, you remain with us. Dr. Kapoor: Practically I am very weak. Prabhupāda: Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate. Dr. Kapoor: Now my hope is successful. I have seen you. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (4): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (4): (Hindi). I am very impressed to read your book which is written by Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: You have seen some of my books? Guest (4): Mm. Prabhupāda: So you can read. Guest (4): I am willing to read in the (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: So, first of all giving our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is to read.... (Hindi) [break] (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Well I think it will be about five hundred pages. (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: ... especially Punjabis. Dr. Kapoor: They are all over. Prabhupāda: Ah, Punjabis, Gujaratis. Dr. Kapoor: Gujaratis also, Hm. Prabhupāda: And Sindhis. Gujaratis are more. Dr. Kapoor: Huh! Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In San Francisco there are many Gujaratis, Patels. Dr. Kapoor: Patels. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how did you manage immediately after landing in USA? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage, when I got only two*-hundred dollars in hand, at that time immediately I rented a storefront. Dr. Kapoor: Eh? Prabhupāda: Storefront. Dr. Kapoor: Huh. Prabhupāda: A shop. Dr. Kapoor: Oh. *Prabhupāda: It was hundred and twenty*-five dollars. And I got opportunity, also, the same building, one small apartment, seventy-two dollars, or seventy dollars, no seventy-five, seventy-five. In this way, two-hundred dollars per month. So I had only two-hundred dollars, I immediately advanced and took the risk of two-hundred dollars. Devotee: That was a year after you went. Prabhupāda: Yes. In 1966. I went there in 1965. So, then... Dr. Kapoor: No, but from '65-'66 how did you manage? You didn't have any money with you. Prabhupāda: Managed by selling my books. Dr. Kapoor: Oh. Prabhupāda: *Bhāgavatam*. Dr. Kapoor: I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: I see. You carried your books with you? *Prabhupāda: Yes, I took two*-hundred sets of books. Dr. Kapoor: I see. *Prabhupāda: So I was taking the stock to the booksellers there or some institution or some friend. In this way, sixteen dollars, the full set sixteen dollars. In this way collecting. [break] ...That gentleman who carried me in his car, he is Mr. Kaśinātha Servan(?). [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, a large edition, this size, eleven hundred pages. Dr. Kapoor: I see. Guru dāsa: We should let Dr. Karan Singh patronize ... Prabhupāda: Huh? Guru dāsa: ...an Indian edition of it. We should let Dr. Karan Singh patronize an Indian edition of it, without, with one photo. As he was suggesting, let him patronize it, the Indian printing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guru dāsa: Because there is so much demand. He wants to see it. He wants to see it. Prabhupāda: So why don't you get the manuscript and let us have an Indian edition. I told Rūpānuga that the difficulty is that the enlarged edition when we are attempting to publish, MacMillan says that "We are publishing your book, why not we, we publish.'' If we publish, then we save our investment to publish. That has not been decided, so therefore I advised my secretary in New York that MacMillan's permission or no permission, you should immediately print. If they print it is all right, otherwise print ourself. Dr. Kapoor: Haven't you given the copyright to them? Prabhupāda: No, copyright is mine. Dr. Kapoor: Oh. Guest (5): Can you get, get it, published in India. Prabhupāda: In India, yes. No, by publisher, especially publisher like MacMillan you save so much time and investment also. We are not for profit. We want to see the publication in the market, so in that sense we save so much trouble, but they always look after their business profit. Dr. Kapoor: Naturally. *Prabhupāda: In the beginning also I requested them to publish the whole, but they said, "No, it will be very big, it will be costly. You reduce it to 400 pages.'' So that 1100 pages were reduced to 400 pages. Now when people are demanding this Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, people are coming. When our saṅkīrtana party goes in the street many gentlemen comes and demands "Have you got Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?" Dr. Kapoor: Hm, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, they demand it. In every center it is going on very nicely. Then we have many customer requested the enlarged edition. So, so everything is ready. Now this controversy, whether MacMillan will publish or we shall publish. Dr. Kapoor: There is no doubt that you will be saving a lot of trouble (indistinct). Prabhupāda: And they have got good organization. Dr. Kapoor: Good organization they have got. Prabhupāda: All over the world. Dr. Kapoor: They'll sell more. They'll sell more. Prabhupāda: Actually because it was published by MacMillan Company, it has become widely circulated, people are demanding. Dr. Kapoor: I think you should let them publish. Prabhupāda: That I am trying, but it has not been decided, but anyway it will be published very soon. Guru dāsa: Even if they do publish it, they will not distribute it in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, in that sense we may publish in India. Dr. Kapoor: You may have an agreement with them, that you have a cheaper Indian edition, which you will sell only in India, you can give them the right to sell it all over the world. Prabhupāda: I have asked that Shishu Kumar, Shishu Kumar you know? Guru dāsa: No. Prabhupāda: The Atmarama & Son's proprietor. Guru dāsa: Oh yes, yes. Prabhupāda: He came to see me. Guru dāsa: Yes, I know. *Prabhupāda: So I asked him the quotation of that small edition of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. He told me that he will inform me. Anyway (Hindi). Guest (5): (Hindi). Prabhupāda: Whenever I take ticket, round trip. (Hindi) [break] Ye 'nye ca pāpā, śudhyanti, prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Bhāgavata... Dr. Kapoor: (chants mantra). Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti development (Hindi-break) ...creation. (Hindi) *Dr. Kapoor: Before creation, the kṛṣṇa*-bhakti was in Vaikuṇṭha (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: After creation it came from... *Prabhupāda: Tene brahma hṛdā, ādi*-kavaye. Tene brahma. Brahma means before the creation. Aham evasam agre. Before creation Kṛṣṇa was there, and it was, the kṛṣṇa-bhakti was injected within the heart of Brahmā. (Hindi-break) ...three to four hours at night and one hour or one and half hour, altogether five hours. Gosvāmīs (Hindi) ...brahma-bhūtaḥ. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Dr. Kapoor: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Bhagavaty uttama-śloke bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī [SB 1.2.18]. Uttama-śloke. Uttama (Hindi) Dr. Kapoor: Minor accident with the bus (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Oh. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (laughter) . Tat padma vipad. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām [SB 10.14.58]. Dr. Kapoor: ...accident. Prabhupāda: Tell me. Dr. Kapoor: One you see I was going from Kanpur(?) to Benares, with (indistinct) in the same car, and when I went on a crossing a badly loaded truck, you see... Prabhupāda: Oh, so... Dr. Kapoor: ...struck against our car, you see, and the car bounced, it jumped. It's about four or five feet from the ground, and it fell upside down, and there was not a scratch, I tell you. Not one of us was hurt. Not one of us. And a camel on the roadside, so he and one passenger, they were both killed. Prabhupāda: Killed? Dr. Kapoor: Killed. I think (indistinct) to us. Guest: At that time you remembered Bhagavān Śrī Kṛṣṇa, at that time. He remembers Śrī Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān. Dr. Kapoor: Baba, I did not (indistinct) (laughter). Prabhupāda: He remembers Kṛṣṇa always. Dr. Kapoor: But Kṛṣṇa remembered me (laughter), and you see it has been my experience, you see, on such occasions, if you are dedicated to Kṛṣṇa, even if you don't remember Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa remembers you always. Prabhupāda: That is the special... Dr. Kapoor: It is as much Kṛṣṇa's responsibility to remember us in times of adversity, as it is ours to remember Him. But we are mortals and we are likely to forget Him. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi).... Śraddha-śābde viśvāsa (kahe) sudṛḍha niścaya kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva*-karma kṛta haya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. Śraddha. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy (Hindi) śraddhā-śābde viśvāsa, full faith, viśvāsa, or sudṛḍha niścaya. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If one becomes dovetailed in the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa, then everything is done nicely. Śraddha-śābde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya. Dr. Kapoor: And people are really astounded to see śraddhā, especially śraddhā and guru in your disciples. That is the one thing that is clear to everybody. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct). Guru dāsa: What is that śraddhā? Prabhupāda: Śraddha means faith in spiritual master. They are praising your faith in... *Dr. Kapoor: People are impressed very much by your guru*-bhakti (laughter). (Hindi) Guru dāsa: If they associated with Śrīla Prabhupāda they would...[break] (end) Morning Walk -- February 17, 1974, Bombay Yaśomatīnandana: ...told everybody that he saw Kṛṣṇa, and the people knew... (laughter) Right, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: His father could not. His father could not. Yaśomatīnandana: My father couldn't know Him. Yaduvara: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Yes. Prabhupāda: Prahlāda's father, he could not see. But Prahlāda sees. Dr. Patel: I think greatest bhakta was Prahlāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I read it, this in this,... Yaśomatīnandana: So it does not matter whether one is baby or one is a big man. Dr. Patel: It's just a joke (indistinct) because... Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. *Dr. Patel: I mean, all*-powerful God can be anything. God can assume form, God can remain formless. [break] Prabhupāda: ...by (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vallabhācārya himself? Prabhupāda: It is recorded in the court. There was a court case, and it was found that Gopālajī belongs to the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who, who was pressing the court case? Prabhupāda: It was amongst themselves. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To see who should get the right to worship. Prabhupāda: In Delhi there is a lawyer. He told me. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It would be really wonderful if Sumatiben would decide to support our temple because the entire Gujarati community of Bombay follows her direction. They really do, especially in these matters. And she is known to be the chairman of... [break] *Prabhupāda: (to Patel) You are śānta*-bhakta. Dr. Patel: Am I? Prabhupāda: Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya, and mādhurya. *Dr. Patel: Mādhurya*-bhakta is the best. Like gopīs. But that is very difficult to be. *Prabhupāda: No, best, it is just one's conception, you see? Otherwise, all are best. All are best. But śānta*-bhaktas do not take Kṛṣṇa very intimately. Dr. Patel: (laughs) You are... You take me below the belt. *Prabhupāda: Yes, śānta*-bhakta means the bhakta who appreciates the greatness of the Supreme, but does not take Kṛṣṇa as very intimate. That is śānta-bhakta. Dr. Patel: How can, ah, can you imagine God without taking Him very intimately? These are two, I mean... Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like... Intimately... Just like I can give this example, that you have got a great regard for me, but not as intimately as my other disciples. Dr. Patel: Ah, that is possible. Because I am, I have not put on the order clothes. Prabhupāda: This example is, I think, proper. Dr. Patel: (laughs) Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their life for me. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: But you have got regard for me, but you cannot sacrifice your life for me. Dr. Patel: You are trying to tempt me, sir, but I don't think it will be for that. I will not be turned away. I've got my duty to do toward my family. (laughing) *Prabhupāda: No, no. This is, this is the stage of śānta*-bhakta. I am explaining śānta-bhakta. Dr. Patel: I can understand you. You... (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, no, it is according to śāstra, śānta. There are the different types of mellows, variety mellows. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. śānta, dāsya, sākhya... I do not say that you become my disciple. I don't say that. Dr. Patel: I am your disciple in all respects. I should not put on your, these clothes and come and do all the... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not our program. That is not our program. We do not ask anyone to change his cloth, never. I never ask them to change his cloth, or change his position. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy. Dr. Patel: That's right. We, we always... We always consider a guru in the form of God. God comes to you in the form of a guru. Prabhupāda: That is... That we also accept. Dr. Patel: And that is the way I was... I mean, I love you, treat you as such and worship you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And if you think it is any other form, I have no objection, whatever bhāva you may call it. What is the matter? *Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking on the principle of śāstra. śānta*-bhakta, dāsya-bhakta, sākhya-bhakta, vātsalya-bhakta, mādhurya-bhakta. Dr. Patel: You see, I can... *Prabhupāda: It is not that mādhurya*-bhakta is greater than the dāsya-bhakta. The example has been given: just like sound. Sound is generated from the ether, sky. You are scientific man. You will understand. Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: But that sound is existing in all other five elements, four elements. Dr. Patel: Right. *Prabhupāda: The sound is not only in the ether, but sound is on the air. The sound is in the fire, the sound is also in the water, and sound is also on the land. So the basic principle of śānta*-rasa is there. Dr. Patel: In all of them. Prabhupāda: All of them. But according to the position, it is more developed. Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: You see? In the earth, this sound is very... Just like you take any earthly object, metal. The sound is very strong there. Is it not? Dr. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just like water. There is sound. But that sound and metallic sound are different. Sound is there, but the sound of the water and sound of the metal*-in the metal the sound is more prominent than in the water. But the sound is there. Similarly... Dr. Patel: Love is there. Prabhupāda: Yes, love is there. Dr. Patel: But there is more close love. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. More developed. Yes. In the śānta*-rasa, simply this appreciation of the greatness of the Absolute. That is śānta-rasa. Dr. Patel: Once upon a time the scientists of the world had considered this religion, belief in God to be bosh. Now the scientists have started thinking, and thinking very rightly that there is nothing else but God as you have said. That is the greatest thing that they are doing today. Prabhupāda: Yes, so that I am explaining. The sound is there. God consciousness is there, sound as the God consciousness, but in different phases the development is there differently. That is the principle. Everyone has got God consciousness. There is no doubt about it. Dr. Patel: We come to you, sir, to serve your disciples in the best way we can do because to serve a disciple is to serve God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, that means it is being developed. That śānta*-rasa is being developed to dāsya-rasa. Dr. Patel: But sometimes disciples don't like our service. *Prabhupāda: They are children. They are children. You see, they are coming from foreign countries. They are being trained up. There may be some deficiencies, but this is the scientific progress. When from śānta*-rasa, one develops dāsya-rasa, wants to give some service, there is further development. Then further service, not as ordinary service, but as intimate friend. Then, as paternal, then conjugal. These are the different developments. The principle is there, śānta-rasa, but they are manifested in different stages of development. Dr. Patel: So that, the seed has grown into a small... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: ...jungle, or whatever you want to say. *Prabhupāda: Then when it is sprouted, then active service. That is dāsya*-rasa. Dr. Patel: This is, in the very, I mean, very, the early preaching of all our Vaiṣṇava families... Prabhupāda: Yes, Dr. Patel: ...that all sannyāsīs and sādhus must be treated very well... *Prabhupāda: The sannyāsīs and sādhus, they are on the śānta*-rasa, as you are. Yes, śānta-rasa, appreciating the greatness of the Supreme Absolute Truth. That is śānta-rasa. Brahman, Paramātmā. The Brahman feature of the Lord, all-pervading... Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That appreciation, that is śānta-rasa. Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. This is also śānta-rasa. *Dr. Patel: Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. *Prabhupāda: Ha. So this realization of the Absolute Truth is called śānta*-rasa. And when it is further developed, then dāsya-rasa. Dr. Patel: No, these boys must develop friendship with me, that's all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (laughing) I am in a way joking sometimes to them and they take me very seriously. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Don't take serious. Treat him as your father, or grandfather. He's our great well*-wisher, and he's a śānta-rasa devotee. Now, I shall request you one thing. The... During ārātrika time, hundreds of children come to us. I give little prasādam. You have seen it? Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are very interested in dance and... Now, I wish that they may be given sumptuous food and dress. Dr. Patel: Yes, dress, I also thought of that. Some of them are very badly dressed, poor people... Prabhupāda: Yes, if they come, "All right, come here. Just take your bath, be cleansed, tilaka, and a nice dress" and giving them some food. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every day they can put on their nice clothes for the Deity. Prabhupāda: Yes, because their father, mother, neither they do know how to take care of the children, but they come to us. We should take care of them. Dr. Patel: This is just like those Christian missions, we must... Prabhupāda: Any one... Dr. Patel: I think, I think we must do that. Then we will be able to propagate. Prabhupāda: Not with that purpose. Here is a poor child. He comes automatically to dance. So we should take care of them. Dr. Patel: Yes, I have thought of it long ago. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: We must collect some funds and buy some ready*-made clothes, keep them ready and present them. *Prabhupāda: So from śānta*-rasa we can begin this dāsya-rasa. Yes. Instead of taking care of them, you please kindly take up these poor children. Dr. Patel: Yes, you see, my wife used to take care of more than hundred children in the schools, giving them fees, giving them notes, pencils and clothing and... Prabhupāda: A little more, little more. *Dr. Patel: She was doing it, but I am not she. She was a multi*-millionaire's daughter; I am a poor man's son. Prabhupāda: But you are not poor man. Dr. Patel: She had that painting from her young days of her father as a billionaire. But I am a extremely poor man. Prabhupāda: But you are the husband of a millionaire's daughter. Dr. Patel: She's dead now. She has got no... She had a grip on me when she was living. I am now a vagabond in her absence. (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of you or she. I am just pointing out. *Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I will try. I have taken your, this thing to my heart. I will try to collect some fund and get some clothing, those ready*-made ones. Prabhupāda: So one day a tailors may be brought and take their measurement. *Dr. Patel: But ready*-made is there. *Prabhupāda: Or ready*-made. Ready made. So in the evening they should come, they should take bath, be cleansed, and give dress. Next day when they come, change the dress. Let them be habituated. They are coming... Dr. Patel: In cleanliness, you give them impression of cleanliness. Prabhupāda: ...voluntarily, to dance, to take prasādam. So why you should not take care of them? This is my point. We don't make distinction whether they are coming from Christian or Hindu or... Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, man is a man. I mean those Christians think that we are Hindus and they are Christian. We don't think because in Hinduism or in actually Vedic religion everyone is created one. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I am in fact, When I go near... Prabhupāda: Our, our, our mantra is sarve sukhino bhavantu. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: Sarve sukhina... Everyone be happy. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We want to see everyone to be happy. That's all. Dr. Patel: I, but, this is naturally me, if I see, of course... Then naturally... The great Jesus Christ, great bhakta of God. (some other men talk in background) But Christians, they have, they are... Prabhupāda: No, no. These, they may be low grade. They may be inferior, but if we are superior, we must act as superior. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: That is our movement. Dr. Patel: Your religion is extremely catholic. *Prabhupāda: Our catholic Kṛṣṇa consciousness*-Kṛṣṇa says sarva-yoniṣu. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ: [Bg. 14.4] "Any form of life, that is, I am the seed-giving father." Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. Prabhupāda: And how lovingly they come to take little prasādam. I was thinking that... Dr. Patel: I was noticing, myself, the same thing... Prabhupāda: How lovingly they offer me obeisances, touch my feet, and a little fruit or little, whatever I give, they are satisfied. So they are so friendly because they are innocent. They do not know what is this Hindu, Christian. So we must take care of them. Guest (1): Some of those childrens are Christians. Prabhupāda: Never mind Christian, Hindu, Muslim. A Christian or a..., if we offer them nice food and nice dress, nobody will deny. Dr. Patel: But these Hindus became Christians because they were offered nice food and dress by Christian missionaries. Prabhupāda: No, our point is not that, just to bring them and proselytize them to Hinduism. No. Take prasādam, take dress, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance. That's all. I never said to all these European and American disciples that "You become a Hindu." I never said. Ask them. I never said. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither we would have agreed. Prabhupāda: Why shall I ask them to be? I asked them, "Just become lover of God. That's all. If you can love God through your religion, that's all right. You do that." I said that. I never said that "You become Hindu." Then I would not have been able to... Dr. Patel: I think that they must understand, sir, that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Religion is a Vedic religion, which is common to Christianity. I would say that Jesus Christ has taught the Vedic religion to the Middle East and to the heathens and he was crucified because the heathens were not able to understand him properly. That is what my, I mean, convictions, strong conviction is that Jesus had actually preached Hinduism, I mean Vedic religion there. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was... Dr. Patel: And all religions are in fact Vedic. Prabhupāda: He was educated of his spiritual life in India. Twelve years here. Twelve years he was. And he lived in Jagannātha temple. Dr. Patel: Yesterday I found out a very good article. I have preserved it for you. I have forgot to bring it. I'll bring it in the afternoon from Journal, how where he stayed and how he was in India in Himalayas. Some man has made a research. Some Russian scholar has made a research for forty years, in various places and found out from various libraries the all, the old records. Prabhupāda: There was once a historian report that after crucification he did not die. He... Dr. Patel: He was in samādhi. Prabhupāda: He came in India and... Dr. Patel: Lived somewhere in Kashmir. That is what I have in article. He lived for a very long time after crucifixion. In crucifixion he went in great samādhi, and when the cross was brought down, he came out of samādhi after three days. That is the resurrection. Prabhupāda: He was... Yes. Dr. Patel: And then he was brought back by his disciples to India. Prabhupāda: That is quite possible. Dr. Patel: There is a big community called Issans(?) and Issans are somewhere in between Tigris and that Doab(?), you know, Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. From there he migrated to the Palestine area and preached those fellows all the philosophy that he learned in India. That is... That man has said. So I consider Christianity is a part of..., one of the pañca, of Hindu... of the... Prabhupāda: No, no. Christianity is Vaiṣṇavism. Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavism? Absolutely Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Anyone who... Mohammedan is also Vaiṣṇavism. Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: No, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu had talk with the Pāṭhānas. He proved that "Your religion is Vaiṣṇavism." Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaiṣṇavism 100%. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta there is. I have already explained that. Dr. Patel: No, Christianity is 100% Vaiṣṇavism. I have studied Christianity very well. Prabhupāda: Not hundred percent, but... Dr. Patel: More or less. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Because I have studied the whole of Bible, whole of New Testament and Genesis and everything, very well, just as I have studied the *Upaniṣads*. And I have come to realize that Jesus has taught Vedic religion in total, and Christ was nothing but a great saint of ancient Vedic religion. That is my conjecture, my conviction. They (indistinct) may think anything else. Prabhupāda: His commandments proved that. He said, "Thou shall not kill." Dr. Patel: "Thou shall not kill." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is ahiṁsā, first principle. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: You see, abhayaṁ sattva. First thing is abhaya. Abhaya*-dāna, when you give, it is the greatest dāna. That is the first principle of all the religions, and that is the religion Christ taught there. The Middle East people and the Europeans had no what we call saṁskāra. Those people are very backwards, towards India's backside. Because of the climatic conditions. Prabhupāda: No, from the First Commandment it appears that they were not very enlightened because why does he say "Thou shall not kill"? That means they were killers. Dr. Patel: They were killing. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They were killers. Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they would not have said, "Thou shall not kill." Prabhupāda: Why the first commandment is there, "Thou shall not kill"? They were fighting and killing amongst themselves. Not very advanced nation. And he was horrified when he saw that the Jews were killing animals. Dr. Patel: In the temple. Prabhupāda: In the temple. *Dr. Patel: Not only that. They were, I mean, doing all that money*-changing and taking bribes and all that. I think he... Prabhupāda: Well, that is professional... It is not very. So everyone takes bribe and everyone is interested in money than anything. That is not very great fault. You see. When you are in the material world, you require money. That is fact. Dr. Patel: They were not able to understand that he is going to raise another temple. Another temple, that is how the Jews, were against him. I think... That is what my conjection, no? Another temple means another creed of... *Prabhupāda: This is "against" or "for," this so*-called "against" or "for," it has no meaning. Just like children fight, sometimes against, sometimes for. So it has no meaning. Unless one is raised in the spiritual consciousness, this so-called goodness and badness has no meaning. Caitanya-caritāmṛta kara says, dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna: "In the material atmosphere, the so-called goodness and so-called badness, they're all the same, simply a different type of mental concoction. That's all." Dr. Patel: If nothing but God exists, then bad thing is also God and good thing is also God. That that... Prabhupāda: Therefore God realization is real good thing. Dr. Patel: Real good thing. Prabhupāda: Not this, "This is good, this is bad." That is relative world. You'll find everywhere something good. *Dr. Patel: Good and bad are the bhukti*-yoga citta (?). Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Then you make citta*-bhukti nirodha (indistinct) yoga, and that nirodha, yoga, again that vacuum should not be allowed to be formed, but it should be filled with the, with God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is bhakti. Am I right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I think my understanding is not- Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I want to be corrected by you. *Prabhupāda: I have already told you, you are śānta*-rasa bhakta. [break] ...originally, as spirit soul, everyone is Vaiṣṇava. Everyone is Vaiṣṇava. *Dr. Patel: No, but by, by, by saṁskāras, birth. Our saṁskāra, Vaiṣṇava*-saṁskāra. Whole community of us. (pause) *Prabhupāda: So why you are becoming ex*-community? Dr. Patel: I am... No. That is not... There is only one community and that is also many people. All of us one. The animal communities are there. Prabhupāda: So that is also another community. If you take simply humanity, that is another community. Dr. Patel: Then all communities are including... Prabhupāda: Why you should neglect the animal community? Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right. Prabhupāda: That is also community. *Dr. Patel: That is why twenty*-four avatāras have been shown to us in Bhāgavata, from fish to the highest. *Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. If one is paṇḍita, he does not make any distinction between animal community and human community. *Dr. Patel: Śuni caiva śva*-pāke ca *Prabhupāda: Ah, that is paṇḍita. As soon as you see, "This is animal community, this is human community," then you are not paṇḍita. You are still in, equal learning. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. *Dr. Patel: Mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Prabhupāda: That is real vision. Dr. Patel: Hamare (Hindi) He is agreeing to start a school for you in Sanskrit and Hindi. Eh? Girirāja: Yes. We also agree. Dr. Patel: So find out men, so long that Mahārāja Sāheb is here. Prabhupāda: (to someone walking) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: One man is coming today. Dr. Patel: Then let him start, right earnest, and I will be the student along with him. I want to replace my all Sanskrit knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit knowledge, whatever you have got, that is sufficient for understanding. We don't require to be a Sanskrit scholar. Dr. Patel: No, I don't want to be scholar. I want to learn all the ancient literatures. Bhakta does not want to learn even, but I am a little of that temperament. Whole day I pass my time in reading only, practically. *Prabhupāda: So bhakti is jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. When you will not try to become a jñānī, then you'll come to the stage of bhakti. Dr. Patel: I don't mind but let me... Prabhupāda: So long, so long you... Dr. Patel: I don't want to remain a jñānī. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhaktas are not ajñānī. Dr. Patel: Myself, I don't talk of others. *Prabhupāda: No, no, yourself also. A bhaktas, they're not ajñānī. That is rascaldom. If says the bhaktas are ajñānī, that is rascaldom because Kṛṣṇa says, teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna*-jaṁ tamaḥ, nāśayāmi [Bg. 10.11]. If Kṛṣṇa helps him to become jñānī, then how he's ajñānī? It is a, ignorance, they say bhaktas are not jñānīs. Without jñāna, there is no question of bhakta. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā [SB 1.2.12]. Bhakta means he's already qualified with jñāna and vairāgya. That is bhakta. Dr. Patel: Bhaktas are... Prabhupāda: They have got real knowledge. They have got real knowledge. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. When they have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they are really jñānī. Dr. Patel: But some of the absolutely ignorant people, they have become, but... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We don't say, we don't speak of "some." This is the, yes, there are many... Dr. Patel: Extremely scholastic they have become afterwards. Even though they have not gone to the school. Prabhupāda: Just like Jīva Gosvāmī. Jīva Gosvāmī, there is no comparison of learned scholarship with him throughout the whole world. He's such a jñānī. Even great, great paṇḍitas said that "There will be no more such learned philosopher, neither there was, like Jīva Gosvāmī." Yes. We are also referring to Jīva Gosvāmī. Dr. Patel: I, I, I... I also refer. I want to read, I want to read his books. *Prabhupāda: So in our Gauḍīya*-vaiṣṇava-sampradāya there are so many learned scholars. Just like my Guru Mahārāja. Dr. Patel: But a Sanskrit... I tell you, the Bengalis are the great scholars all round, in all respects. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And we are your followers, Gujaratis. In fact, in India, next to Bengal comes Gujarati in scholarship. And Maharashtra first. Prabhupāda: No, your Gokule said, "What Bengal thinks today, others will think tomorrow." *Dr. Patel: That's right. Even in Mara*-mari (?) also, you think only... (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, this independence movement was started from Bengal. Partition of Bengal and the movement started, Surendranath Bannerjee. Gandhi admitted, "Father of nation is Surendranath Bannerjee." Yes. And later on, actually, if you don't take other, the independence came through a Bengali, Subash Chandra Bose. Dr. Patel: Yes. Mr. Sar: Right. Dr. Patel: Not even... Philosophy also. Gaurapāda,(?) the grandson of Śaṅkarapāda. Gaurapāda, Gaurapāda was, he's Govindapāda and Govindapāda is Śaṅkarācārya. So that also you will see that some Śaṅkara's greatest sire was a Bengali gentleman. Prabhupāda: Now taking too much, too much taking in political part. Aurobindo, Aurobindo, he was a politician. Dr. Patel: Great politician. He was a humanist also. Prabhupāda: Yes, but he left. "This is no good." I must take to yoga practice. Dr. Patel: No man can become like an Aurobindo again. Very great man. A politician, a saint, and what not. And a great rushi. He is a rushi. I consider him as a rushi. Prabhupāda: Who? Dr. Patel: Aurobindo. Prabhupāda: Rushi? Dr. Patel: A modern rushi. Prabhupāda: What is that rushi? Dr. Patel: Rushi... Prabhupāda: Oh, ṛṣi, yes. Dr. Patel: You call it "ṛṣi" and we call it "rushi." that is the difference in pronunciation. Prabhupāda: Just like the Oriyas. they call "Krushna." Dr. Patel: "Krushna," yes. They cannot even say Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa;" they say, "Krushna." Dr. Patel: We call, "Kreshna." We call "Kreshna," you call, "Kṛṣṇa," they call, "Krushna." These are different... We call, "rushi." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāva*-grāhi janārdana. But Kṛṣṇa can understand who is asking for Him. (laughter) Dr. Patel: All languages He understands. All languages are from oṁ, and oṁ is God. So all languages are God. Look at my arguments. Am I right or wrong. *Prabhupāda: Why you are wrong? Kṛṣṇa says, oṁkāra sarva*-vedeṣu:" I am oṁkāra sarva-vedeṣu." [break] ...mental concoction. Dr. Patel: Is a body. Prabhupāda: Anyone who has got this material body, he is not well. He may be possessing very stout and strong body, but he's not well. Because death is there. So well or no well, you have to meet death. So where is, where is the use of your... Dr. Patel: What is this death? If you say, "You meet death," then you are a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, no. I am speaking... I am answering your "well" and "not well." That's it. When there is death, then what is the use of calling "well" and "not well"? Dr. Patel: "Well" and "not well," that's right. Prabhupāda: That is my point. If you can avoid death, disease, old age, then you are well. You cannot avoid all these things. You must become old man, you must die, you must be diseased; *where is the meaning of this well? It is simply concoction. [break] Where is happiness? Where is well*-being? That they do not know. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not know. Just like a man lying on sick bed, and some friends come, "How are you?" "Yes, today I am well." What is this "well"? You are lying on the sick bed, hospital, and you are speaking, "Yes, I am well." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. There is no "well." So long you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, there is no question of "well." When you can avoid these things, then you are well. [break] ...but our independence. What is that independence? No rice, no geha. What is this independence? [break] (Hindi) "godless civilization" saba boka mare hai, bās. [break] ...take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, everything is false. You cannot escape. (Hindi) The death is there. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. So at the end everything will be taken away by Kṛṣṇa in the form of death. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. (japa) Everyone, especially the karmīs, they think that they will live forever. Mr. Sar: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is the most wonderful thing. Because everyone is dying, but the man who is not yet dead, he thinks that he'll live forever. This is the most wonderful thing. Ahanyāhanya lokāni gacchanti yama*-mandiram, śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti kim āścaryam atha param (?). He does not think that "I'll have to die. So what I am doing?" Guest (1): Swamiji, may I ask one question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You said this population is increasing. According to Hindu theory, we say that human life is very difficult and you get this human birth after great karmas and good deeds and all that. So this population is increasing and we are putting the birth control; and then the population of beasts and others that, the wild beasts, that is decreasing, although almost it has decreased. Prabhupāda: But they have no birth control. Guest (1): No, no, just see. And then you see the population of these, for instance, chickens, pigs, and those, they have increased. So the population of human being that is increasing, is it due to these wild animals and other they have done good deeds, so they are coming up as a human being? Prabhupāda: First thing is, I am asking you, why you are bothering about the increase of population? First, that is my question. The animals, they do not bother. You are so advanced in knowledge. Why you are bothering? First of all answer this question. Guest (1): No, no, but that is... Prabhupāda: The animals, they have got less intelligence. They never bother themselves, "The population is increasing." And you are advanced animal. Why you are so much bothered? Guest (1): But that is... Prabhupāda: Then you are less intelligent than the animals. That is my argument. They are lower animals. They are begetting at one time one dozen children. They are not bothering. Why you are bothering? That means that you are less than the animals. Because you have got so much anxiety, "Why population increasing?" But they are not bothering. So you are less than animals. Guest (1): No, no, my question is different. Prabhupāda: That is my answer. Why you are bothering the population increasing? Why you are bothering? Guest (1): Because they think that the resources... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Some, there is some... There is some reason. But they have no such thing. So therefore they are advanced. They have no such anxiety. You are less than animal. Guest (1): No, that's right Swamiji, but what my question is... Prabhupāda: That is... First answer is this, that you are bothered for increased population, but the animals are not. Therefore they are more advanced than you. They know that there is no botheration. Because in the Vedic injunction it is said, eko yo bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Now, there are millions of elephants in Africa. Who is feeding them? Who is feeding them? They eat at one time one mound. Where the food is coming from? Why you are bothered? You'll take only one chaṭāka. That means you are godless. You do not know who is supplying your food. You are less than animal. That is my answer. Guest (1): Swamiji, my question is different. Prabhupāda: This is answer. You are very much... Guest (1): No, that is... Prabhupāda: ...in anxiety. Guest (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: He. Guest (2): (Hindi) Human being, they are all coming as. Prabhupāda: No, no. Human being, that is a chance given to you to become human being, to understand God. And if you do not place yourself as human being, you must suffer. Just like (Hindi). Ācchā post. If you do not behave rightly, you are degraded. You are going to animal become. Guest (1): No, but,... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the nature's law. This is the nature's law, that some way or other, by evolutionary process, you come to the human being form, but if you remain as animal, then you go to animal again. Guest (2): So animal me āpne bolte hai (?). Prabhupāda: He. Guest (2): Ācchā. So if population increase... Prabhupāda: The same example. Suppose by promotion, you come to a very nice post, but if you do not behave well, then you are degraded. Guest (1): No, that I agree, Swamiji, ke admi yo he, karenge (?), they will go back as human beings. But (Hindi) Prabhupāda: But, bhāla (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Now, why, why don't you understand. Mr. Sar: Chance is given to you... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): (Hindi) [break] *Prabhupāda: ...there is human form of life. If you do not know, then you remain animal. Āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānam etad paśubhiḥ narāṇām: "Eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse, and defense-this is there in the animals." And if you remain in that jurisdiction only-eating, sleeping and sexual intercourse and defense*-you are animal, no more than animal. Why you are thinking that you are more than animal? You are animal. This is the śāstric injunction. You are no better than animal because your business is eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Whole world is busy. Guest (1): And then, Swamiji, this birth control, that means going against the... Prabhupāda: They are more than animals. Guest (1): No, no, that just means going against the will of the God. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Guest (1): Because God wants to bring them as human... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is a chance. Suppose if somebody's given chance to take opportunity and if you kill, that's a great sin. You cannot do that. You are obstructing his natural progress. Is that birth control (Hindi) European countries mai (?), he hasn't got soul, lump of matter, (Hindi) [break] As soon as you forget the duty of human life, then you are nothing but animal. This is the verdict of Hindu dharma, that if you do not properly behave as human being, you are no better than animal. Dharmeṇa hīna, (Hindi) ...will give him an animal body. This is nature's work. Yes, again come, again come (Hindi) But he does not do that. Guest (3): But Swamiji, sexual intercourse after marriage is against law of Manu? Prabhupāda: No, that is also... There is law. You cannot have sexual intercourse with wife as you like, no. That is also illicit sex. Then... When the woman is in menstrual period, after five days, you can have once. As soon as she is pregnant, no more sexual intercourse. This is human being. Not that like animal. Animals also, they have got restrictions. You see? The lions, they have sexual intercourse once in life. Once in life. Brahmacārī. You see? So as soon as you violate the laws, then you are animal. Because law is meant for man. Just like "Keep to the right" and "left" in the road. It is meant for human being, not for the dogs. Dog, if he keeps right or left, it is not under law. But if you keep your car instead of left to the right, then you are criminal. (pause) So which way we have to go?... Human life begins when he understands what is dharma. That is human life, beginning. Aushikha (?) (Hindi) Jaiye aur Hindu religion hai, Muslim religion hai, Christian religion hai, Buddhist religion hai, Jewish religion hai. The religion must be there. But when we give up this religious process, then there is no more human life; it is animal life. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: So by that, there's a emblem of the theosophical colony. Prabhupāda: I see. Oh, yes, yes. [break] One old lady... You know, in the villages there is fair, or market. So in the morning she saw that so many hundreds of men have assembled. So one lady of that village, she thought that "They have become my guests." So she began to cry and was asking his son, her son, "Oh, how I can accommodate so many people? How can I receive them as guests?" So the son said, "My dear mother, don't be agitated. In the evening you come." So in the evening when she come, there was nobody. There was nobody, because a marketplace. So this botheration is just like the old lady. After seeing so many men, she is agitated. And in the evening there is none. So it requires intelligence, that "They are coming and going. Why I should be bothered about that? Let me do my duty as human being." That is required. (Hindi:) Ek sat me dekhila. [break] ...unlimited number of living entities. Ananta. Ananta means you cannot count. Within your body, within your stool, there are millions of living entities. They are provided, maintained, by your stool, by your urine. So why do you bother? If your stool and urine can provide so many living entities, why you bother yourself? (Hindi) You do your duty as human being. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ sa... Don't become animal. That is required. (Hindi) [break] ...the essence of knowledge. People are diverted in so many ways. Human duty is... (Hindi) [break] That is human duty. Be surrendered to God. That is your duty. Then everything will come automatically. Everything will come. And without knowledge, how you can take care? That is not possible. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, we're late for our meeting. [break] Prabhupāda: ...be strong. Now nobody cares for it. *Mr. Sar: All these movements at one time, sometimes Ārya*-samāja movement was very strong, sometimes another's. They come and go. *Prabhupāda: But this Kṛṣṇa movement is always strong. There are millions of Kṛṣṇa temples in India, and the Ārya*-samājīs tried to check people going to the temple, but they, they have gone away, and the temple is existing and millions of people still going to see the temple. In Jagannātha temple, in Vṛndāvana, thousands and thousands of men, still coming. All the South Indian temples. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tirupati. Prabhupāda: Tirupati. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 25,000 people a day. Guest (1): 25,000 years old? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, people are coming every day. Prabhupāda: But their income is more than one lakh of rupees daily. Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Keno āpnāra? Guest (3): (Hindi) [break] *Prabhupāda: Ācchā. [break] ...that is our slogan. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. Janmādyasya yataḥ. We explain this truth. the truth is that from whom everything comes. Janmādyasya yataḥ. So He's a person or imperson? No, abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says, "There's no truth superior to Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. The truth is there. They do not know. Half*-educated. This is very good, "Truth is the..." We also say, but they do not know what is that truth. Satsvarūpa: They leave the question hanging, that "No man may actually know what it is." (end) Morning Walk -- February 19, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...impersonalist or personalist. Who is better? That is explained, that personalists are better posted than the impersonalists. Gatir duḥk..., avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ dehavadbhir avāpyate. Mr. Sar: Yes. Prabhupāda: They simply suffer, that's all. It is already explained. The impersonalists, they cannot concentrate their mind upon the Supreme, and simply hodgepodge. Therefore they suffer. Mr. Sar: Yes. Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs, they suffer only. Teṣāṁ kleśala eva śiṣyate. In Bhāgavata it is explained, "Their gain is only suffering." That's all. Mr. Sar: That's why they... *Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhaktim udasya te vibho kliśyanti ye kevala*-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha-labdhaye. *Mr. Sar: Ah, kevala*-bodha. Prabhupāda: Simply trying to know, know, know. Mr. Sar: Know. *Prabhupāda: You see? So, teṣāṁ kleśala eva śiṣyate: "Their gain is simply their trying for, that labor." Nānyad yathā sthūla*-tuṣāvaghātinām: "It is exactly like one is beating the husk." Mr. Sar: Yes, and not getting that thing. Prabhupāda: There is no rice... Mr. Sar: No rice even. Prabhupāda: Simply "gad, gad, gad, gad, gad, gad." Mr. Sar: "Gad, gad, gad, gad, gad, gad, gad." *Prabhupāda: That's all. Teṣāṁ kleśala eva śiṣyate nānyad yathā sthūla*-tuṣāvaghātinām. So these impersonalists, they are trying to approach the Absolute Truth, but the method is not very good. Mr. Sar: (mumbles verse) ...avyaktam. Prabhupāda: Hm. No, Kṛṣṇa says... Mr. Sar: ...teṣāṁ paryupa... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Mr. Sar: Ah. Yāvān yaś cāsmi... Prabhupāda: He never says that "By mental speculation, one can understand." He never says. Mr. Sar: He's beyond the reach of the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu... (Hindi) Mr. Sar: Yam evaiṣa vṛṇute tam eva vivṛṇute tanūṁ svām. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Tanu. Tanu means form. Tanu means form. Mr. Sar: That is, He shows His grace, isn't it? That means isn't it, whom He selects, whom the Lord selects? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the Bhagavad*-gītā also, the Lord says that "This, My form, is not understood by common men." Mr. Sar: Divyaṁ dadāmi te cakṣuḥ. Dr. Patel: Mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14]. *Prabhupāda: But actually, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So gradual process, go to the Absolute Truth*-Brahman, Paramātmā, and last is Bhagavān. The Bhagavān realization is the real realization, not Brahman, not... This is partial. (looking at something on beach) It is already dead. Dr. Patel: No, it may be even living. Prabhupāda: Why even it is dead while it is ferocious? *Mr. Sar: Rajju*-sarpa-nyāya, huh? That is bhrānti-māyā. Prabhupāda: No, no. There are certain things which are simply by form is dangerous. (greets some other men:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Here is another. Prabhupāda: This is water snake? They have no poison. *Dr. Patel: Evaṁ satata*-yuktā ye bhaktās tvāṁ paryupāsate, ye cāpy akṣaram avyaktam... [break] *Prabhupāda: Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. This is the stress. Mayy āsakta. "Here I am present. Why you should contemplate on imperson?" But the foolish people will not understand this. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante [Bg. 7.15]. He is canvassing, "Here I am," but they will not surrender. They are searching out God somewhere else. "Here I am." "No, no, no. You are not." Mūḍhas. Mr. Sar: Mūḍhas, yes. Dr. Patel: Ye tu akṣaram anirdeśyam... Mr. Sar: ...avyaktaṁ paryupāsate. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, sab mūḍha. Dr. Patel: They are all mūḍhas. Let us complete it now. Kūṭastham acalaṁ dhruvam. [break] *Prabhupāda: But where is sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ? He is engaged in "family hite ratāḥ." *Dr. Patel: If he is sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ... Prabhupāda: Then that is another thing. That is another thing. But one who is "family hite ratāḥ," "country hite ratāḥ," "community hite ratāḥ," how he can do? *Dr. Patel: So in this Bhagavān has said, sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. *Prabhupāda: But sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Now, these people, they are hite ratāḥ of limited circle, that's all. Mr. Sar: Ohh. That is why their... This path is not good for mankind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, one must accept sannyāsa at a certain stage. Mr. Sar: *Dr. Patel: Ye tu sarvāṇi karmāṇi mayi sannyāsya mat*-parāḥ. Now, you have all your... *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ, that, it is very difficult. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great person, he said, "Englishman, you go away." Just see. Who can be better than Mahatma Gandhi? Dr. Patel: And he must have life like Bharata. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Jaḍa Bharata. *Prabhupāda: Is there possibility? He was so sacrificeful, but still, he was not sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Whole struggle was: "Englishman, you get out." *Dr. Patel: Sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ will be like Jaḍa Bharata. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ means who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He is sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Dr. Patel: Because Kṛṣṇa's representative. *Prabhupāda: He is the root. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. The root, if you water the root, then sarva*-bhūta hite ratāḥ, the water will go to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers. He is sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. They do not know the way how to become sarva-bhūta-hite. And because... Just see the example. I am not becoming proud, but because I have got little taste for it, therefore I am preaching all over the world. I don't say I am perfect. I have got little taste of kṛṣṇa-bhakti. So I have no distinction that "This is Indian. This is American. This is African." Everyone, I am giving this hari-nāma. This is sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ, no distinction. We are trying to give protection the the cows, to animals, to the trees. This is sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Unless one is... Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad... If one is not devoted to Kṛṣṇa, he cannot become sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām [Bg. 12.5]. Simply they will suffer, that's all. *Mr. Sar: Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta*-cetasām. *Prabhupāda: Avyakta. This avyakta... They do not find where is the point where sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Just like one who knows the electric button, he push. He does not know that. Mūḍha. Dr. Patel: You have to work the main switch. *Prabhupāda: Yes! That is sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. You must know how to do it. Dr. Patel and Mr. Sar: *Prabhupāda: ...early in the morning have maṅgala-ārātrika, then prasāda. Now, walk, also talking. We are not wasting time. We are not wasting time. Even if you say, "Why you are walking?" We are not walking for nothing. We are talking. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Satataṁ kīrtayantaḥ. So walking, talking. *Dr. Patel: Mat*-karmabhiḥ karmāṇi siddhim... [break] *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-karma-tyāga. Where is Girirāja? These boys collecting not less than thirty thousand per month, but not a single farthing for him. This is sarva-karma-phala. Is there any man, businessman? Mr. Sar: Yes, yes. He stays in utter poverty. *Dr. Patel: Sarva*-karma-phala-tyāgam eva. Prabhupāda: He does not care for his body even. Mr. Sar: Yes, he does not care. Prabhupāda: I forced him to go to U.S.A. and get... Dr. Patel: I invited him to stay in my house, but he said that he won't come. Prabhupāda: No, no, he is not interested for his person. *Dr. Patel: We have invite him. When he is ill, he may stay with me. We may have a little sat*-saṅga. *Prabhupāda: But he is sarva*-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Why he should be concentrated one? *Mr. Sar: Adveṣṭā sarva*-bhūtānām. Prabhupāda: Ah, adveṣṭā. It is not, "I am Hindu. Why shall I preach amongst the Christian?" The dveṣṭā. *Dr. Patel: Adveṣṭā sarva*-bhūtānām. Prabhupāda: But one has to become adveṣṭā. This is adveṣṭā. *Dr. Patel: Maitraḥ karuṇa eva ca, nirmamo nirahaṅkāraḥ sama*-duḥkha-sukhaḥ kṣamī [Bg. 12.13]. Prabhupāda: Now, some of these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs accuse me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami is spoiling our Hindu religion." Means dveṣṭā. They do not like Christians. They do not like Mohammedans. But I am accepting Mohammedans, Christian, any damn rascal: "Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Mr. Sar: And be a brāhmaṇa. Prabhupāda: This is adveṣṭā. [break] ...envious of Christian. *Dr. Patel: Nirmamo nirahaṅkāraḥ sama*-duḥkha-sukhaḥ... Prabhupāda: Why you should be? *Dr. Patel: ...santuṣṭaḥ satataṁ yogī yatātmā dṛḍha*-niścayaḥ, mayy-arpita-mano-buddhir [Bg. 8.7]. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Mr. Sar: Ye... (Hindi) Prabhupāda: We cannot change. Therefore yesterday I said, "Why shall I go to...?" *Dr. Patel and Mr. Sar: Yasmān nodvijate loko lokān nodvijate ca yaḥ, harṣāmarṣa*-bhayodvegair. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: You are firing us. (laughs) Prabhupāda: For your good. For your good. Even if I fire you, for your good. Dr. Patel: (laughing) I was able to come to this point. That is why I asked them to arrange for this meeting. [break] Prabhupāda: ...father fires son, it is not envious. Adveṣṭā, he... That is adveṣṭā. Dr. Patel: Anapekṣaḥ śucir dakṣa. Prabhupāda: Anapekṣaḥ, just see. When I went to Europe, America, I went with forty rupees. The Sumati Morarji gave me a ticket, and I had only forty rupees. That forty rupees could not be spent there. Then, when I was getting down, I asked the captain, "Captain Pandia," that "I have not a single dollar with me. So you purchase one set of my books." "So what is... Swami, what is your price?" "Sixteen dollar." He paid me twenty dollars. With that twenty dollars, I dropped. Mr. Sar: This is anapekṣaḥ. Dr. Patel: Anapekṣaḥ śucir dakṣa. Prabhupāda: Now I think we have got money. Dr. Patel: Two million dollars. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So that is not a problem. That is not a problem because I knew that Kṛṣṇa is there. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes, śubhāśubha. When I was in Boston, I was thinking that "I have come here. How they will receive me? As soon as I'll say that 'No meat*-eating, no illicit sex, and no gambling, and no intoxication,' immediately they will say, 'Please go home, don't preach here.' All right." So for one year there was no success, you see? And I was going to the shipping company: "When your next ship is coming to return back?" So the manager was telling, "Swamiji, you are always inquiring, but you never go." (all laugh) I said, "Yes, when I am too much frustrated, I come to here to ask you. Then again I go back: 'Let me see two months more.' " It was going like that. Nobody was there with me. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: (laughing) Aniketaḥ, automatically aniketaḥ. There was no place, no place to live. No money. Dr. Patel: This is the culmination of a sannyāsī. Mr. Sar: One who has no place, he lives everywhere. Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa means aniketaḥ. Now we have got hundred temples. We have got hundred temples. But Kṛṣṇa does not allow me to stay eight days, more than. Dr. Patel: But how long you going to stay here? You have promised me to stay long, eh? Prabhupāda: But if Kṛṣṇa allows... Mr. Sar: I will always pray to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: I am dependent on Kṛṣṇa. If He allows. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Because we can't come to America to keep your company. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Here is a Pacific Ocean. [break] Sometimes I think "When I was simply depending on Kṛṣṇa, those days... Now I have to depend on so many disciples." (laughter) Dr. Patel: Through Kṛṣṇa the disciples are the sannyāsīs. Prabhupāda: (laughing) They are good disciples. They are bringing everything. I am simply ordering. Still, I think, "That was better, to depend on..." Dr. Patel: What is Māyāvāda, Māyāvāda? This, we do not understand anything. māyā is a fact because it is the power of God, and you have got to work with it. So we are all of us are vādīs. Don't talk all these thing now Swamiji, I am going to fire him. Prabhupāda: No, why you have become angry? Dr. Patel: No, I don't become angry, I become violent, not angry. Mr. Sar: Māyāvādī's name is speaker. Prabhupāda: That means he is Māyāvādī. Dr. Patel: Māyā is a fact of life. Prabhupāda: He is becoming angry; that means he is Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: Māyā is a fact of life... (end) Morning Walk -- February 20, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...and happiness also. That is my experience. I always said that "You are so much graced by God in so many ways." Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Mr. Sar: What karma? Dr. Patel: No, no. They, they (Hindi) ...servant. [break] *Mr. Sar: ...yad gatvā, tam eva āgaccha, mama tejo 'ṁśa*-sambhavam. Dr. Patel: That is why they have got all these things. So God is there. He says. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam. *Prabhupāda: At least, preliminary condition for being in touch with God is there. Because Kṛṣṇa says, catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. So they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means they are pious. Mr. Sar: Yes, sukṛtinaḥ. Prabhupāda: Sukṛti. Mr. Sar: Otherwise you cannot be bhakta. *Prabhupāda: And, and the result of sukṛti, piety, is janmaiśvarya-śruta*-śrī [SB 1.8.26]. Janma, to take birth, to take birth in nice family. And aiśvarya, riches. And... Janmaiśvarya-śruta, education, and śrī, beauty. All these four things are in America. There every boy, every girl is nicely educated, qualified, artist. Dr. Patel: That last hundred years' generation of America, very honest people. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Dr. Patel: Extremely honest and extremely righteous. That is why the generation is good. This last hundred years... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: ...we have been very fond of America. We have been taking great example of Americans during last hundred years. Now they have started degenerating. And that happens with everyone. Prabhupāda: But the... Dr. Patel: British degenerated; so they must degenerate. Prabhupāda: Degenerating means... *Dr. Patel: Degeneration must come. (indistinct) It's not so*-called revolution. Prabhupāda: So they are... Dr. Patel: (indistinct) they degenerate for others. So that (indistinct) degenerate. We degenerated. So the Muslims degenerated. Americans will degenerate. Somebody else will degenerate. Is that sort of a will? No? Prabhupāda: So janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī, good birth, riches, education, and sri, beauty, these are the result of pious activities. Dr. Patel: When you say the present education and all... But this education has created those boys, smoking carasa and gañjā and bhāṅga... Prabhupāda: That is not a university education. That is due to their coming to India. Dr. Patel: They are...? They come to India and... They don't do it there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, they come here for spiritual enlightenment, and they meet these rascals, gañjā*-eater sādhus. That is the beginning. Dr. Patel: But they have introduced that in American universities. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I know. This is the beginning. They learned this... They thought that this is spiritualism. Dr. Patel: I thought they have taught us. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Jayapatākā: No, they imported... *Prabhupāda: Your gañjā, gañjā*-smoker, these so-called sādhus and just like... They have done this. By following these rascals, they are doing it. But they do not know who is sādhu... Dr. Patel: And LSD was invented by Indians, no? Mr. Sar: (indistinct) ...other thing, you know. Guest (2): Oh. (Hindi) Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: I thought all these things intoxicants, are universal. Not only Indians. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. In the... Dr. Patel: Even, even, even, it... Prabhupāda: No, no, in... Dr. Patel: It was inculcated into the civilization of China. Prabhupāda: No, no. This I know definitely. The hippies, the hippies came to India. The hippies... (Dr. Patel and the Indian men argue in background) Dr. Patel: All these... No, no, no! These are all come from America, sir. If you say like that, I am not going back, sir, day! Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. The gañjā, gañjā was not in America. Dr. Patel: That, that is not! But... Prabhupāda: That I am speaking. Unless they... (everyone yelling at once) Dr. Patel: He says that LSD has been invented in India. Guest (1): No, no! I never said these things! Dr. Patel: Don't...! Don't pervert the things! Swamiji, I am very hot on wrong things and lies! This is an utter lie if you even say so... That LSD was invented in America. I am a scientist. Mr. Sar: That is right. Dr. Patel: And it has been used by American boys. And a professor of American university is a friend of mine. And he has been taken horrible things about American boys. And you are talking LSD has been invented in India! Guest (1): No! I am talking... Dr. Patel: Don't talk all these things!!! Guest (1): No, I am talks, sir... I am only talking of... Dr. Patel: No, this is very wrong. Untruth is as good as a daitya. Truth is God. Truth is Kṛṣṇa. Truthfulness. So how it may be? What do you say, sir? Prabhupāda: No, no. When we say gañjā was started from here, it is God or not? Guest (1): That's all... Dr. Patel: Gañjā is God. What is that? In gañjā also you'll get that, that, that state of samādhi those who get it, they get it. I mean, that is all right. But you said like that, that LSD is invented in India. Guest (1): No! I never said LSD... Why you are putting...? Prabhupāda: No, no. When they started gañjā... When they started gañjā... They were scientific men. They wanted to make scientific chemicals out of it. Dr. Patel: That's right. That's right. That is the right thing. I mean, truth you must have... Prabhupāda: But the... *Dr. Patel: Don't talk all these things. I cannot tolerate a lie, falsehood of banias (?). I am a first*-class enemy of falsehood. For truth I am prepared to get hanged. That is very wrong to tell that LSD was invented in India. Guest (1): No, I never said that LSD... Dr. Patel: Tum bola (?). Guest (1): No, no, no, no, no. That is a... (Hindi) That is the mistake, you see, of the... Dr. Patel: All right, I am quiet. Lay down now. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, actually, this is a fact. This gañjā smoking, they have learned from India. Dr. Patel: No, but gañjā, they say, some of the people say that you come in such trance. It's an artificial trance. Prabhupāda: They say also like that! Dr. Patel: Hm. These boys. Prabhupāda: They... These hippies, they also say that by marijuana... They call marijuana... They call marijuana? Or what is called? Devotees: Marijuana. *Prabhupāda: Marijuana. So they learned this gañjā smoking... They came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they do not know who can give them spiritual enlightenment. They went to these rascals, gañjā*-smoker, having long beard... Dr. Patel: But there is a great smuggling racket the whole world, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: No, no. When they... I know that Allen Ginsberg. He learned this... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in India. Prabhupāda: But he's a great poet. He learned this gañjā smoking from India. Dr. Patel: The English boys, the French boys, the Germans, all of them have started in the... They don't come here as hippies. This is an international disease. Prabhupāda: They learned from America. That's a fact. The hippie movement started from America. Dr. Patel: Now, hippie movement started from America. That means they started first. Not after coming to India... Prabhupāda: But they learned it from India. Dr. Patel: No. *Prabhupāda: They came here... I have got many students. They came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they learned gañjā smoking and keeping high, big beard. You know. There is a sannyāsa-āśrama in Delhi. And people contribute them gañjā. Not only they, I know... My father, he was also attached to so many sannyāsīs. So in Kālī*-ghāṭa, there was a sannyāsī... *Dr. Patel: Sannyāsīs, those nāgā*-bābās, they smoke. Prabhupāda: Not nāgā... He was a regular sannyāsī, Māyāvādī sannyāsī. So my father was giving them the saffron cloth and gañjā. People accept it that this is one of the items. Dr. Patel: That gañjā should be given. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, so badly impressed. So this gañjā*-smoking has spread all over the world as the hippie movement. Dr. Patel: I thought that the hippies started from those, this (indistinct) part. *Prabhupāda: No, no. The hippie movement was started from India. You see so many gañjā*-smokers, they are sādhus, bābā-sādhu. *Dr. Patel: Bābās also, those nāgā*-bābās, they all smoke... Prabhupāda: No, no. Nāgā and also "sāgā (?)" also. All of them gañjā-... (laughs) Guest (1): But, uh, but, uh... *Prabhupāda: Eh? In Calcutta there was a big poet, Girish*-chandra Ghosh. Perhaps you heard his name. Dr. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He started Indian state. He was a first*-class gañjā smoker. Dr. Patel: They get in a trance, and... Prabhupāda: That, that... You have got appreciation for this trance. Dr. Patel: They have got a trance. They get a trance... Prabhupāda: You are, you are smelling. Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You never condemn it. Dr. Patel: I won't condemn it if it is good, and if it is bad, I will condemn it. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is bad. Dr. Patel: Every bad thing has good also. Some good quality must be there. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, no. Dr. Patel: So they have taken to it. I don't... Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. Just like opium. Opium, for common man, it is bad. But you are a physician; you can use opium, tincture opium for some certain use. Dr. Patel: Therefore I say. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Dr. Patel: Same thing, I say. The same reasoning. Prabhupāda: But they are not physicians. They are ordinary men. Dr. Patel: So it is bad for them. Prabhupāda: What is... What is... What is food for one is poison for another. Dr. Patel: Yes. That is what I said. The worst poisons have got the best qualification in them for saving lives. That is my point and that is what I was speaking of. Prabhupāda: So when it is ruining life, how you can say it the best? Dr. Patel: But it doesn't save the live of someone? Prabhupāda: That I know also. But that is in different use. You cannot take. Just like even a snake poison, venomous, that is also used for saving lives. But that does not mean the snake is good. Dr. Patel: I mean it is not good for majority. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am talking of the majority. Dr. Patel: Everything made by God is made with an intention of... Prabhupāda: No, no. We are talking of the majority, not of the small minority. *Dr. Patel: All is, everything is made by God with intentions of fulfillment of His līlā or māyā or whatever you call it. No? And all these, all these auṣadhīs, these cārās, what do you call, the vanaspati*-auṣadhīs, they have also venomous poison in them. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Vanauṣadhī loke jayate paramam (?). *Dr. Patel: So many, so many plants are extremely poisonous. And the poisonous plants are the plants which give the best medicine. As for example, digoxen(?), digitalis, life*-saving in heart disease. If you eat a leaf, you will die. Prabhupāda: Then, just like in your dispensary, you keep everything medicine. But it is to be given to different persons, different medicine. Not that because it is medicine you give to everyone. Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say is that this pān or gañjā, they might have used used by some for a good aim. But it has been misused by a majority of men. *Prabhupāda: So they are innocent people. They have imitated. Our, these so*-called sādhu says that Lord Śiva used to smoke gañjā. That is their... So they have become Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva drunk the whole poison ocean and he kept it here. So you drink one drop of poison. But these rascals, they compare with Śiva, with Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa danced with girls. Therefore we must have." These Māyāvādīs do that. I know. Dr. Patel: You are... You have to... I've been... That is what I have, as one of the members of the Vaiṣṇava family, think, that you have to worship God not with the body consciousness, but with the soul consciousness. Then there is no question of Kṛṣṇa dancing with girls. It is a higher soul embracing the lower souls to him. Plain it has been... Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: That is what we have been taught from our early days. Prabhupāda: These rascals, they do not know what is Kṛṣṇa or what is Kṛṣṇa's behavior. Dr. Patel: And that is right. Even for them. I have no objection if you call me a Māyāvādī. Dr. Patel: I have no objection... *Prabhupāda: I know! I know certainly. I challenge you. In Karachi, there was Oṁ*-sampradāya. And they were calling for young girls and your... Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Prabhupāda: Yes! That, the Māyāvādī! That Māyāvādī. Because he thought himself that "I am Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: That is where we differ, Vaiṣṇavas. Because we take Kṛṣṇa's līlā... Prabhupāda: Just you hear me! He thought himself that "I am Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Nobody is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So I am talking that. So he was a pākā Māyāvādī. And gentlemen were offering their daughters and their wives to dance. Guest (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) I'll kick on their face! Guest (2): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Because it has been wrongly explained, the whole... Prabhupāda: Therefore these kind of things are done by the Māyāvādīs. *Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa*-līlā is not explained properly by any... Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs! Dr. Patel: ...other thing than the Vaiṣṇavas. All is wrongly understood by all other fellows excepting Vaiṣṇavas, true Vaiṣṇavas. That Kṛṣṇa, as he was Supersoul... Prabhupāda: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has condemned these rascal Māyāvādīs: māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. The greatest offender to Kṛṣṇa is these Māyāvādīs. Greatest offenders. Guest (3): (Hindi conversation) Prabhupāda: There are so many. Even in... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Even in... I do not wish to say. Even this Kalyāṇa, Kalyāṇa, Kalyāṇa proprietor, that Goenka. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Goenka. Prabhupāda: He was doing that. In Calcutta. Govinda Bhavan. Dr. Patel: Goenka? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: This Goenka. Prabhupāda: Not this Goenka. That... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Gorakhpur, *Gītā* Press. Prabhupāda: He was a pākā Māyāvādī. Guest (4): *Gītā* Press? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Oh, that Goenka of *Gītā* Press. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Yes. Guest (4): (Hindi) Dr. Patel: No. That is because of degeneration of the lower fellows. They are not understanding the real teaching of Bhāgavata. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have heard about that, about the Vallabha*-sampradāya. Yes. I do not know whether it is fact. I have heard. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, about? *Dr. Patel: He belonged to Vallabha*-sampradāya. Prabhupāda: I do not know. I have heard that after marriage the girl was offered to guru. *Mr. Sar: No, that is not in Vallabha*-sampradāya. Dr. Patel: No, no, no. Mr. Sar: No, on ours... Not on Gujarat side. Dr. Patel: Nowhere, nowhere. It is all hearsay. I don't think it would be possible. Mr. Sar: You see it is a... Dr. Patel: Maybe a lower community... Mr. Sar: No, no. Ignorant folk may be decepted like that when they say, "Well, I am Kṛṣṇa, you are gopīs. So let us enjoy." Prabhupāda: Ah! Ah! Mr. Sar: So ignorant folks... No, no. I tell you, this is the ignorant folks. That is likely to happen in all religions. Prabhupāda: No. Our Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura punished one Viṣikiṣeṇa. I'll tell that story. It is a fact. One avatāra came. And he was doing that in the village. And they complained to the police officer. And it went to the High Commissioner. And then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was that time Magistrate. So the Commissioner knew that he is a pious man. So he entrusted the matter. And it was a long story. I'll tell you some time. *Mr. Sar: No, no. The founders were well*-intentioned, but then, after these followers, you see, they only looked to the rituals and not to the spirit... Prabhupāda: No, I don't... Mr. Sar: You know, they forget that this will be sukṛtina. Bhakta should be sukṛtina first, and then bhakta. That they forget. So it happens, you see, in all the... Prabhupāda: No, this thinking, that "I am as good as Kṛṣṇa," this Māyāvāda philosophy has done so much havoc. *Dr. Patel: The highest philosophy of all is that you must give your ego. So there is no question of "I" remaining there. Even in bhakti*-yoga and in jñāna-yoga, the real jñāna-yoga. Falsehood, anything can be... Even in bhakti-mārga also there are rascals, you know, who have done all sorts of humbug things. Yaśodānandana: They are Māyāvādīs. *Prabhupāda: They were Māyāvādīs. The bhakti*-mārga... They call bhakti-mārga. They are actually Māyāvādīs. Dr. Patel: So you can get that degeneration from anywhere. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the philosophy that Kṛṣṇa actually never danced with the gopīs, but Kṛṣṇa's the Supersoul and the gopīs are souls, but there is actually no dancing; that is simply allegory. Prabhupāda: Who says that? Dr. Patel: I say. Prabhupāda: That is also Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: I say it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says it. Dr. Patel: And I, I, I own it of Māyāvādī. With your grace, I own it. (Prabhupāda chuckles) I... I... Isn't Kṛṣṇa Supersoul? Isn't you a soul? Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Patel: Have you not to worship Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: But that, that, that... Dr. Patel: ...as a soul and not a as a body? Prabhupāda: That philosophy, that Kṛṣṇa never danced... Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Prabhupāda: That is wrong. Dr. Patel: That is wrong. That is wrong. But you have to worship Him as a soul,... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Patel: ...and not as a body. If you worship Him as a body, with a body consciousness, I would not associate. I would not associate with you. Prabhupāda: No, that is mūḍha. That is mūḍha. Dr. Patel: Ah! But some of these boys have been thinking like that. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says Himself that avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. He is never this body. He has no distinction between... That has been done, analyzed by Māyāvādī scholar, Dr. Radhakrishnan. When Kṛṣṇa says that man*-manā mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, he, he, I mean to say, warns, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." That means he is making distinction between Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's inside. So he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and he's writing comment on Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. It's going on. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Actually, this is so true, Prabhupāda, because even in the western world, they are Christians. They may be fallen Christians, but they don't think they are Christ. They may be fallen. They may not follow the principles... Prabhupāda: They say "Christ is God." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they also make mistakes. Prabhupāda: They also make that mistake. Yaśomatīnandana: No, they are mistaken. That is, they understand their position is servant, but... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This, this philosophy, that there's allegory, that Kṛṣṇa never danced with gopīs, that... Prabhupāda: That is... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...directly leads to Māyāvādī philosophy. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Guest (4): (Hindi for couple sentences.) Prabhupāda: He knows also. Guest (4): I know also. He spoiled so many girls, you see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have gone to him so many times in Calcutta. Guest (4): (Hindi) This is the story of before ten or fifteen years old. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, and now he's at the head of that *Gītā* Press. Prabhupāda: Hiralal. Guest: No, no, no, no, no. Not that Guṇḍā (?). That is different. (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but Prabhupāda was speaking of that one. *Bhava*-bhūti: It was Gandhi who said that Arjuna was the soul, that it is all allegory, too. He also interpreted Gītā like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, he interpreted like that. *Bhava*-bhūti: So same Māyāvādī concept. Yaśomatīnandana: That is also Radhakrishnan who said that battlefield of Kurukṣetra is just a battle of soul and something... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: The five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the... Five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses actually. There is nothing like *Mahābhārata* war. *Bhava*-bhūti: All allegory they want to dismiss it as. Yaśomatīnandana: They think that this is all idols. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then you should take your shoe and hit them in the face and say, "This is also allegory of how the material world slaps one." Actually... Yaśomatīnandana: He says that Vyāsadeva is an imaginary character. Prabhupāda: And in India the Māyāvāda poison has overflooded. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. Guest (4): (some Hindi conversation) *Bhava*-bhūti: Just like they import gañjā, they import Māyāvādī philosophy also. Prabhupāda: In America. *Bhava*-bhūti: Yeah. And all these books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually the Māyāvādī philosophy was started with Vivekananda. Because I don't find in the Christian faith that they are Māyāvādīs. Their belief is service to God. Of course, they are somewhat Māyāvādīs. But this real strong Māyāvādī was brought from East with Buddhism and Vivekananda's philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I was studying, you know, books... Prabhupāda: Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī. Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda! (Prabhupāda chuckles) Prabhupāda: All śūnyavādīs, Māyāvādīs, yes. Impersonalists. *Bhava*-bhūti: That's why this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy is so unique. [break] (end) Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay Nitāi: Guest (1): ...in every house. *Prabhupāda: Self*-help, self-help. Guest (1): They're distributing in every house, how to benefit in the house. Dr. Patel: But if it is right for them, why not have films in every house and grow your food also? That is not possible every time on the way. You have got to have a... This is a highly developed society. So you have got to... Prabhupāda: And because now it is developed, it is so developed that there is no food. It is so developed that there is no food. One devotee of goddess Durgā, he was a worshiper of goddess Durgā. So Mother Durgā was asking, "My dear son, you are happy?" "Oh Mother! In all respects. Except in two things: there is no food, there is no cloth. That's all. Otherwise I am very happy." Guest (1): So the main thing is not that. Prabhupāda: (laughs) So your, your advancement means advancement in everything, but there is no food, there is no cloth. That's all. This is the advancement. Dr. Patel: When there was no rain here last year... No? Year before last. (Hindi) The men in the medical college were talking, "Why the hell do you want rain?" I said "What nonsense, you are talking?" "We don't want. Our fields are in America. The rain is falling there all right." You know, jokingly. (laughs) There is no other... "Why do you want rain here?" Because people... Prabhupāda: No, no. Rain, rain... Dr. Patel: Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Prabhupāda: Yes. But they won't, won't perform yajña. Dr. Patel: No. And yajña means there is service to the humanity... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not... Dr. Patel: "That is giving service to Kṛṣṇa," you'll say. "But humanity is Kṛṣṇa," I say. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: And then we quarrel! So we stop there. (laughs) Prabhupāda: That's all. Dr. Patel: Yajña... *Prabhupāda: Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Wrong, wrong fully is not yajña. Prabhupāda: What is wrong fully? Everyone is trying. The state is trying. Dr. Patel: Everything is God. Ahaṁ kratur ahaṁ yajñaḥ ahaṁ ghṛtam. "Everything I am." That is Kṛṣṇa, no? And in the very next verse He says... Prabhupāda: But when there is remembrance of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: That is right. Prabhupāda: Aham. That "aham" must be there. Dr. Patel: In the name of God, you do, and you forget that you are doing. Two things, that is yajña. That you are not the performer... *Prabhupāda: Not... No, you cannot, you cannot manufacture yajña. The yajña*-vidhi is there. In the Vedas, śāstras. You cannot say that "I am doing for God. That is yajña." Yajña-vidhi. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sukhaṁ sa avāpnoti [Bg. 16.23]. He cannot get happiness if he derides śāstra, yajña-vidhi. You cannot manufacture yajña-vidhi. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's life itself was a yajña. *Prabhupāda: No, then there was no need of Bhagavad*-gītā. Anyone can manufacture his yajña. Dr. Patel: Yajña. But the very life of Kṛṣṇa was a yajña. He said that. Ahaṁ yajñaḥ. Ahaṁ kratur aham ajyam... What is that? I forgot that... Prabhupāda: No, no. Ahaṁ yajña, but who is following Kṛṣṇa? That is the... Dr. Patel: He follows, you follow, I follow. Prabhupāda: No, no, any... Dr. Patel: You follow, I follow means I follow Kṛṣṇa. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Means nobody follows. Because Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Who is doing that? Dr. Patel: Here dharma means all actions... Prabhupāda: Dharma means occupational duties. Dr. Patel: Actions. Prabhupāda: Yes. Duty. Dharma means duty. Dr. Patel: "You give up all other actions and do actions for Me." *Prabhupāda: Dharma does not mean so*-called some religious fanaticism. Dharma means occupational duty. Just like you are medical man. You have practiced medical dharma. Medical dharma. Dr. Patel: So I went yesterday early, after quarreling. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. No, that's all right. One must... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. His dharma was to fight. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Fighter... I am wrongly placed in the medical profession. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: No. Dharma means one's sva*-kar... Just like varṇāśrama-dharma. Dr. Patel: That is the real dharma. *Prabhupāda: Yes. According to varṇa and āśrama. That is called varṇāśrama*-dharma. *Dr. Patel: The greatest gift to the humanity is varṇāśrama*-dharma by the ancient culture of India. Prabhupāda: No, it is given by God. Dr. Patel: Whatever it is... But I mean, that is the greatest gift. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Varṇāśrama*-dharma. And I don't know why people don't follow it. Prabhupāda: But there is no guidance. There is no guidance. *Dr. Patel: Even imperceptibly one āśrama may be following, is followed by western countries. They have got all the (indistinct) though they are not putting on (indistinct) and all. (Hindi) But presently this is, we are living in Kali*-yuga. *Prabhupāda: Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Varṇāśrama-dharma is there, but it is not organized. Varṇa... Because it is made by God, mayā sṛṣṭam, it cannot be violated. So... But it (is) in a perverted way. Therefore we are suffering. *Dr. Patel: But in old days, I think, this varṇāśrama*-dharma was followed... Prabhupāda: Strictly. *Dr. Patel: I am reading the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Therein so many princes turned into brāhmaṇas, and so many brāhmaṇas turned into daityas. Prabhupāda: But that is... Dr. Patel: It was by action. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Not by birth. Guṇa-karma. Just like you are kṣatriya, but because you have acquired the qualification of medical man and you are working as a medical man, therefore you are medical man. Nobody asked you, "You are a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa." You are a medical man. Dr. Patel: Medical... You know, I think medical work is it brahminical or śūdric also? Prabhupāda: That we shall consider later on. Dr. Patel: (laughs) 'Cause I'll not say now so that I will drive out my doubt about me. *Prabhupāda: It is half*-brāhmaṇa. Dr. Patel: No, that is all right. At least, little brāhmaṇa is good. Guest (2): It is vaidyic. All vaidyas are brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, vaidyas means father brāhmaṇa, mother śūdra. That is vaidya. Dr. Patel: They are sūtas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Sūtas are brāhmaṇa mother and father, father kṣatriya. These sūt... No? Those brāhmaṇas were sūtas. Prabhupāda: No. Sūtas means carpenter. Śūdra. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) [break] ...government minister, he has frankly said that "We do not want you to grow here." You know that? Dr. Patel: Who is that minister? Prabhupāda: The Home Minister, Havas(?), in Delhi. Dr. Patel: Oh, Delhi. *Prabhupāda: The government is against our movement. Because they are teaching: "Drink wine, eat meat," and we are teaching no meat*-eating. How they will approve of our movement? Dr. Patel: Not only that. We have just now talked about teaching meat. This government of Maharashtra has created an institution, government institution, which are feeding pigs for selling, meat, and poultry. It could have been done by any private institution outside. Why, eh? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I don't know why they... So they are all śūdras, these, these daityas. Prabhupāda: Not śūdras. They are less than śūdras. Dr. Patel: Actually, they are the relatives of... *Prabhupāda: Mleccha. They have been described in the Bhāgavata: mlecchā rājanya*-rūpiṇaḥ. Mlecchas, they will assume as kṣatriya government. Mlecchā rājanya-rūpiṇaḥ. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajās te mlecchā rājanya-rūpiṇaḥ. Dr. Patel: These fellows created such a horrible state. They actually broke down the temple. Prabhupāda: That is a... Dr. Patel: Why? Why? Why? What, what wrong these boys are doing to them? If any wrong is done to them, it is done by me because I am giving so much botheration to them. *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is that wrong that we are preaching no meat*-eating, no intoxication. We are the greatest criminal. Dr. Patel: No, no, not that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: They are rascals. Prabhupāda: But who is accepting they are? They are still getting votes. Dr. Patel: They'll not get vote now. That Dundubhi said they'll not get. Dundubhi... No, they will not. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) The people have so much opposed them now, the present government, I think there will be right government next election. The election itself is a sort of great, I mean, mockery committed on the people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That I always said. Dr. Patel: It's a demagogy. Prabhupāda: Then... (Hindi) The votes given by some... Dr. Patel: Ignorant people. Prabhupāda: ...ignorant people. What is the value? Dr. Patel: You see, if you go in the assembly... Prabhupāda: Formerly a king was elected by great sages, saintly persons, brāhmaṇas. King was elected. And as soon as he deviated from the śāstric principles, he was kicked out. *Dr. Patel: That is right. But we don't want to follow that (indistinct) rāma*-rājya. Prabhupāda: Then suffer! Then suffer! If your patient does not follow your instruction, he must suffer. Dr. Patel: He will die. Prabhupāda: That's all. Dr. Patel: And this institution is going to die. This government, this Congress government, is going... I think the world over this is the... Prabhupāda: No, it is world over. Dr. Patel: this robbing(?) even in America or England or in Continental countries also. The same. Prabhupāda: The other countries, they were never following. Dr. Patel: Worst are these Muslim countries. They kill each other and come into the power. Still they are following their forefathers. They are faithful to them. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa). Dr. Patel: We should go there. And here. Prabhupāda: A little more? Dr. Patel: So I am trying to associate with them because here is a guru who is trying to spread the real religion to the foreign countries. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Dr. Patel: Sometimes I don't, I mean, they don't like me. Because I am a man who talks non..., sometimes like a Patel. But still I love them because they are sādhus, and you know we must love some... Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a poetry, Cowper: "England, with all thy faults, I love you." Dr. Patel: No. They may not be liking me because sometimes I am very much opposing them, but... Prabhupāda: That is also loving. Dr. Patel: But I tell you that this institution should be allowed to flourish so that your culture will spread the world over. Today, today the world is actually languishing under the wrong influence of the wrong culture. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now Americans are seriously considering about this movement. There are so many writings. Dr. Patel: You are... As a matter of fact, you are improving their lot. The present boys, in American universities, they are all LSD smokers. The other day I said that, and that boy said that LSD went from India and so I became violent. Forgive me. I felt sorry later on. Because I should not have expressed my temper before you... Prabhupāda: No, the... Dr. Patel: But I held in a little more temper than that also. When somebody tells a wrong thing. Prabhupāda: No, this gañjā, gañjā went from here. Dr. Patel: That, because it is produced in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they made a chemical composition of gañjā. That is LSD. Dr. Patel: No, no. LSD is not chemical. It is a synthetic. Prabhupāda: Therefore similar effect. Because they are scientific. So instead of importing gañjā from India, they invented some chemical composition... Dr. Patel: (indistinct) out of these boys. They smoke even in the classrooms, in their residences... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...in their university camps and everywhere. Prabhupāda: Now it is going to be legalized. Dr. Patel: Smoking? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Just like they have legalized the prostitution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anything... Because it is vote. Majority wants. "All right. Make it legalized." Dr. Patel: All, they have... Prabhupāda: Same thing here even. Majority wants to be godless. So government is following that. Therefore they are against our movement. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. Namaskāra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now the vox populi. Majority wants to become drunkards. "All right, it is legalized." Majority wants prostitute hunters. "All right. It is legalized." This is government. No consideration of morality or religion. Majority wants, it must be given. Dr. Patel: No, but, I mean, it is all... It must fall. There is no culture. This is a total degeneration of the humanity at large. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must suffer. And they're suffering. Still, they're blind. *Dr. Patel: So*-called followers of Christianity actually killing Christ every day. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why do you take Christianity? Everyone. Everyone. Dr. Patel: No, but they are majority. They... Prabhupāda: Everyone. Your Hindus also. Dr. Patel: We have degenerated because we have been ruled by foreigners for so many years. But these fellows, being so free in thinking and doing things, they... Prabhupāda: You see. Following of religious principle does not depend on foreign rule or home rule. Dr. Patel: That does... Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā. This is the description. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaituky apratihatā [SB 1.2.6]. One who follows actually. Just like we are following some principles. It cannot be checked by anyone. We do not accept anyone. Dr. Patel: No, no. I think it is so, to my mind. Look at the history of India. After thousand years ready... Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion does not depend on history. It does not depend on history. It depends on culture, how one is sincere. Dr. Patel: But when one culture is infected by a dirty culture of other people, the culture gets spoiled. You know, you put one... Prabhupāda: Just like you are medical man. During British rule, you were medical man, and home rule, you are medical man. It does not mean it has to be changed because the government has changed. One who is unscrupulous, he changes. Dr. Patel: What I mean to say is culture. If you take, put a... Prabhupāda: Anything! Culture, this religious culture... Dr. Patel: If you put two rotten mangoes in a tokari (?) of good mangoes, all will be rotten. That is what has happened to us. Prabhupāda: So that means it is meant for the, who cannot resist. Dr. Patel: But that human, human, I mean, temperament is such. I mean this is easier to fall than to rise. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is all right. Dr. Patel: So the humanity has fallen today. That is what has happened. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: At last. Not only here, but... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is also another fault. Dr. Patel: ...also another, America or England or, say, in Continent or European countries. Everywhere, including the all oriental countries as well. Prabhupāda: Where is...? Mr. Shah is not...? He's not come today? Dr. Patel: No, he had not come. These are seven today, but they all went away from here. All were very busy. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...mleccha. Mlecchā rājanya*-rūpiṇaḥ. Mlecchas will take the position of government. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...he is concerned, he has done his duty. And he has promised to phone. Now it is his duty. Dr. Patel: No, no. But Swamiji, means, we have to follow it up, no? Prabhupāda: What following? We are following for the last four months. They are calling, "Come day, this date, that date." This is following. Dr. Patel: I was a member of the Municipal Corporation of Bombay. I know that in ordinary course these rascals don't pass the plans for six and eight months. What do you say? Prabhupāda: So how one gentleman can deal with rascals? That is another dilemma. Dr. Patel: Very difficult. Guest (3): They told that within one month time we will do it, the municipal (indistinct). But they will (indistinct) for some special purpose, whatever it may be. Dr. Patel: It is because you call it a temple. If you don't call it a temple, it's such an... Prabhupāda: No, how can I take, tell false things? Dr. Patel: No, that is what they are objecting. Guest (4): No, no. It must be a temple. Dr. Patel: When I constructed this house, I wanted to make it into a sort of hospital and a nursing home. So they, "If you want nursing home, well, we won't pass it." Because my nephew was to come back to India. Now he is suffering in the States... [break] Prabhupāda: That clerical staff, they are making budget. One clerk is saying. "No, no, it must be twenty lakhs." And another clerk says, "No, no, ten lakhs." Indian Man (4): The same thing here. Prabhupāda: Yes. So these clerks settle up budget. And the minister says, "Now it is..." The ministers even tax their brain... This is... Whatever the lower staff, clerks... Dr. Patel: They are brainless, to tell the truth. The scum of the society has gone... The other day, I said, "Who are the ministers today?" The middle class of people, those rogues and rascals who followed Gandhiji. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: The highest people died out. We, who were young boys, we are, in our own ways, engaged in our own professions. The rascals... The rascals are the ministers. Am I right or wrong? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. From the beginning. From the beginning. Now, if you don't mind, I'll say. This Jawaharlal was rejected by his father. After coming from foreign country, he was simply after women. So his father thought that "This son is useless." So he was lying useless. So when Gandhi approached Motilal Nehru, that "Come and join," so he took the opportunity that "I am coming, settling up. You please take my son." So that is the beginning of Jawaharlal Nehru's life. Dr. Patel: The whole co... Prabhupāda: No, as you say, all the rascals joined, and they became big men. Dr. Patel: But this particular community of Kashmiri brāhmaṇas, this type of people, they are the product of the local debauchery. I am sorry to say these words before a saint. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But it is so, fact. Prabhupāda: Nehru's family is Mohammedan family, everything Mohammedans. Yes. You know? Dr. Patel: And those men... Prabhupāda: His daughter, his daughter was kidnapped by Mohammedans. Not kidnapped. She willingly went. Yaśomatīnandana: Whose daughter? Prabhupāda: This Motilal Nehru's. Jawaharlal's sister. Dr. Patel: Who was ambassador in America. Vijaya Laksmi Gandhi. In America only, in states also, she was always keeping fully drunk and all... These are the type of people ruling over. Prabhupāda: She was not coming back from that Mohammedan. Only Gandhi intermediated. Dr. Patel: Mahatmaji played a fool with her. Being a bania he said that one wanted to, had to be a Muslim. So Mahatmaji said he would ask that man to become a Hindu. "If he becomes Hindu, I don't mind. You marry her." And that fellow, the Muslim, would not become Hindu. And then he ran off. That is how it happened. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Dr. Patel: ...of the Hindu culture as we have suffered from Muslims. Prabhupāda: No, it is all gone. Dr. Patel: That is why, that is why you don't speak much of Muslims. But they are rogues and rascals, lower than... Prabhupāda: No, we don't hate Muslims. I have got many students, Muslims. Dr. Patel: No, we don't hate. I mean, what they have done in past, their forefathers. They have demolished so many temples. Because they did not... They were all (Hindi). *Prabhupāda: And this is all going on. Even in the Kurus' family, the other party, how much wrong they did to the Pāṇḍavas. They insulted their wife, they took their kingdom, and so many... They sent them to the forest, banishment. What did they not do? It is not the question of Hindu*-Muslim. It is the question of the man, who is concerned. Dr. Patel: Swami, you have got a soft kind of conscience. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Dr. Patel: Soft kind of consciousness. *Prabhupāda: No, no. For everybody. No, No. Because these are, these are designation. So our philosophy is sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Be free from all designations. Just like you are. You don't hate any particular patient because he's Hindu or Muslim. Dr. Patel: I? I hate Muslims. I am telling the truth. Prabhupāda: What kind of physician...? Dr. Patel: I am their enemy number one. (Hindi conversation) If I have to... If I were a prime minister of this country. I would ask them to go to Pakistan. Prabhupāda: No, no. As a physician... Dr. Patel: They wanted Pakistan for themselves. Prabhupāda: As a physician, you cannot deny... Dr. Patel: As a physician, I will treat even animal... Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Dr. Patel: ...if he is dying. That is different story. But I won't... Prabhupāda: So that is our position. Dr. Patel: That is right. Prabhupāda: That is our position. Dr. Patel: That is... I am discharging my duty. But had I been a prime minister of this country, I would have discharged my duty that way. Prabhupāda: Yes. We don't like Muslim culture, but... Dr. Patel: But I, I hate them! Prabhupāda: But...! Dr. Patel: Because...! Because, to them...! Pardon me interrupting. They, their culture is this. I consider every woman to be my sister, excepting my wife. They consider every woman equal to their wife excepting their sister. This is the difference between the two cultures. Prabhupāda: So then... Why do you...? Mean, there are different, many cultures. But we are concerned with Kṛṣṇa culture. That's all. Dr. Patel: That's right. Our our, this is a Kṛṣṇa culture. Kṛṣṇa religion says you have to take every women to be your mother or sister. But they don't take them to be... Excepting their own sister, everyone is equal to their wife. Am I right or wrong? I mean, they... No... I... That is why I hate them. Prabhupāda: Nowadays, that is happening in your Hindu society also. Dr. Patel: That is degeneration because they were contamin... Yaśomatīnandana: They are now developing the same community. Dr. Patel: They have, they have... Yaśomatīnandana: Because the Muslims, they have all this. And now the Hindus, they... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Contaminated, they have contaminated the Hindu society by their contact, long contact. Prabhupāda: Otherwise how the Hindus dared to demolish our temple? Indian Man (5): Yes. That is the main thing. Prabhupāda: They are less than Muslims Dr. Patel: (Hindi for few sentences) This is, I tell you. That was a sort of a... We did not know how to act. (two people talking at once) This is how... Some people didn't... Some section of the people. Now Sonara, Sonara... So... They would not have earned. Otherwise they would not have touched anything. (Hindi) I told the people that did not know. They did it unaware. And we got a shock when we learned next morning that temple was demolished. Not only the pillars were cut by gas... Yaśomatīnandana: For this temple, they raise so much objection, there is so much hassling, hassle. Dr. Patel: They object because, you see. (Hindi) If you, if your enmity is created, even your good qualities, I would look down at that. That is what these people are doing some how or other. I don't know how. Prabhupāda: Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Dr. Patel: Hm. Prabhupāda: Guṇam icchanti... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: These are pāmarāḥ. That, all this thing happened because that man, that... What is his name? Who happened to be now the minister of the neighborhood corporation. Mahaprema. He was supported by this Nair, the owner of this property. And then there was some difficulty in the finalization of the deed(?). So Nair it took a wrong turn, and this man were instigated to do all nonsense, and he went and did his worse, which he should not have done. And he still keeps on doing on that. [break] Nitai: (chants japa several times) (end) Morning Walk -- February 23, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: This is also very good, good in this sense that they do not eat without restriction. There is some restriction. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To sacrifice. Prabhupāda: Yes. That if you want to eat meat and chicken, then you first of all sacrifice before that deity. So at least they'll be restricted from eating meat purchased from slaughterhouse. But this rascal civilization, one side they're advertising "Stop cruelty to animals," another side they're opening unrestricted slaughterhouse. Just see. One side they're allowing marriage of woman every week, another side contraceptive. Just see their contradiction. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...there is animal sacrifice in the church. Is there any such pre...? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jews, they have got. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That was one of the things that Jesus was against. Prabhupāda: Shocked. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That the Jews were sacrificing animals in the temple. (pause) Nitāi: Excuse me. (Microphone ruffles) Prabhupāda: Don't come very near. Nitāi: I'm sorry. [break] Prabhupāda: No, no. People will know our position. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Guru Mahārāja was also very outspoken? Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh yes. (pause) [break] ...that demonstration, "Ouḥ! Ouḥ!" They do not...? Guest (1): Yes. Only two men are coming. Two only coming. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two of them do it here, but I think the big group does it on Chowpati. Guest (1): Chowpati Way? Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they live in Woodlands, Warden Road. So they go to Chowpati. Guest (1): They also own flat, I think. Guest (2): No, they are not staying in that same flat where they stayed. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Guest (2): They have their own apartment. They heard, and they have seen workers. They are barking... [break] Prabhupāda: ...big animals. Dr. Patel: I don't think he would say that so you could... Must have just joking. He's religious, highly religious man. Yogendra Bhai is the most highly religious man in the whole group. Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean he actually said that? Dr. Patel: Not actually, he's... (?) Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Dr. Patel: There is no question of action. It will also act, how much we are religious, only God knows. Prabhupāda: (japa) [break] ...there is there. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya. Dr. Patel: Up to now, I think this is the best part I have run across. One of the best parts. And that, that particular līlā of Kṛṣṇa is the most thrilling one. No? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And when Brahmā saw Kṛṣṇa with four... and Viṣṇu with four hands and all, all, even in cows and boys, the calves and everything, then it was the height of the whole philosophy. You have read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: He? No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I, I... Dr. Patel: But you must have read it in English, in those two volumes of Kṛṣṇa. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Dr. Patel: I read it in Sanskrit, in directly. And there, in real, original Sanskrit it is wonderful. You get the real rasa of it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you, do you mean to say that I was reading it indirectly? Dr. Patel: No, no. Indirectly. It is indirect. The real Sanskrit is different. He will tell you. Any other language than Sanskrit... Prabhupāda: No, no, no, there is no difference. Dr. Patel: ...will not get that rasa. Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Dr. Patel: O rasa. Rasa nei hai Prabhupāda: No, no, rasa... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Real rasa comes in Sanskrit. I read it twice in Gujarati, but I, I was not able to get that pleasure when I read it in Sanskrit. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ*-guṇa-yutād aravinda-nābha-pādāravinda-vimukhāt śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. (S.B. 7.9.10) Dr. Patel: Those two books of Kṛṣṇa, you have written, it's from this only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: The Tenth skandha, no? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I mean, I read all those books which you have published. Now more books, you must send because I am a voracious reader. I'll finish all of them. *Prabhupāda: Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa-yutāt. A brāhmaṇa having twelve brahminical qualifications... Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa-yutād aravinda-nābha-pādāravinda-vimukhāt śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. A brāhmaṇa, well-learned, well-scholar, and just brahminical principles, strictly following, but if he is not a devotee, from him, one caṇḍāla is better. Śvapacaṁ variṣṭham. Why? Now, because that caṇḍāla has-caṇḍāla who is devotee caṇḍāla, not ordinary caṇḍāla*-he has dedicated his mind, his body, his activities for the service of the Lord. Therefore he not only is purified, but he purifies the whole family, whereas a qualified brāhmaṇa, if he is not a devotee, he cannot purify himself, what to speak of purifying the family. Dr. Patel: In the śruti also they mention that all those yogis and philosophers and, and other developed spiritually, if they have not, they have not been able to really realize what Kṛṣṇa or God is unless they have become bhaktas. But in this only it comes. Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata is (indistinct) Dr. Patel: In this particular part. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Viprād dvi-ṣaḍ*-guṇa... Dr. Patel: I thought Bhāgavata was a book of stories, so I was not reading. I am so truthful to you. That is, I read all, I myself, more than half a dozen times all the, mean, twelve *Upaniṣads*. But I said, "Bhāgavata why?" Prabhupāda: No, Bhāgavata is... Dr. Patel: But I read it in Gujarati... *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata, in the beginning it is said, nigama*-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam [SB 1.1.3]. Dr. Patel: That first śloka you explained to me. First śloka. Prabhupāda: Which one? Dr. Patel: First. Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya ya... [SB 1.1.1]. Dr. Patel: Ah! Janmādy asya. It becomes very difficult for me to understand. *Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. No. Because the question... It is the explanation of Brahma*-sūtra. So the Brahma-sūtra, the beginning is athāto brahma jijñāsā. "What about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth?" The next verse is, immediately, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], "The Supreme Absolute Truth is that..." Dr. Patel: "...from which everything is born." Prabhupāda: "...everything is born." Now that Bhāgavata begins the answer: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Dr. Patel: From the second line of the sūtras. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Answer Brahma*-sūtra's question. The answer is Bhāgavata: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Then what is that janmādy asya yataḥ? And he says, Vyāsadeva says, anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. That... The... Abhijñaḥ. That the Absolute Truth, from whom everything has emanated, He knows everything directly and indirectly. He knows. Because He's abhijñaḥ. Dr. Patel: He is knowing everything. Prabhupāda: Knowing every... Knows everything. Dr. Patel: Knowing everything. Knowing everything. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Dr. Patel: Abhijñaḥ. Prabhupāda: Because... *Dr. Patel: All*-down-knowing, all-down-knowing. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So He's not a stone. Just like some philosopher says there was a chunk and creation came from that. So here Bhāgavata says, "No. The origin of creation, He's a person*-abhijñaḥ. And He knows everything, directly and indirectly." Directly, I know this is my body, but indirectly, I do not know what is going on in this body. Therefore we go to physician that: "Please tell me what is the ailments in my body." So I do not know what is the cause. But the original Absolute Truth, He knows everything, directly and indirectly. Therefore He is abhijñaḥ. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. In this way, concludes: satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. *Dr. Patel: Dhīmahi. Yes. Krishna Shankara Shastri has written hundred pages on this and explained it. And I got lost in it, on this one single śloka. He has, about the last dhīmahi, is also a part of Gāyatrī*-mantra. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: What this kuhakam, kuhakam? Prabhupāda: Kuhakam means this material world is kuhakam. Dr. Patel: Kuhakam. Prabhupāda: No, kuhakam means illusion, magic. Something magician showing. So much money. Just like your this, one bābā, what is...? Satya...? He creates some gold. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satya Sai. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) A magician in Gujarat, some Muslim magician. He would ask, not ask for a (indistinct) Guest (3): He would not...? He would not...? Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Indian (3): Mama Chel. Dr. Patel: Mama Chel. There was one man called Mama Chel. And when the ticket taker comes and asks for a ticket he would say, "All right, take this," and there would be a heap of tickets, railway tickets. Prabhupāda: Oh. So a magician can do... Dr. Patel: A magician he was. He would stop that train. Stand behind and stop the train. Stop. He must, people must have got some siddhis by... *Prabhupāda: Ah, the yogic siddhi, aṣṭa*-siddhi, aṇimā-laghimā... *Dr. Patel: No, but that, this aṇimā*-laghimā, you get, the sāttvika fellows. But these, these people who are... Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone can get. It is a practice mechanical. Dr. Patel: But wrong, wrong... Prabhupāda: Mechanical. *Dr. Patel: So the vartas (?) also get it, these śakti*-vartas. They get this by tantric yoga. I can't still understand how tantras, by following, I mean, drawing particular figures and writing down those figures, you can get powers. This is very common in Bengal side, this tantra. No? I read a book on tantra by Sir Arthur Avalon, and he described so wonderful powers come by this and that. I don't know whether it is a fact or not. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is materialism. Anyone who is after powers, that is materialism. Dr. Patel: I could not believe in it. How could it come? Prabhupāda: It can come. Dr. Patel: Not so. Prabhupāda: Now, this is also tantra. Just like nowadays, they were flying sputnik, and from here controlling everything. Millions and millions of miles... Dr. Patel: But there is a science behind it, no? Prabhupāda: So that is also a kind of science, subtle science. Dr. Patel: This writing, writing letters, two and two, and, and... *Prabhupāda: Yes. There are subtle sciences. These are gross sciences. There are subtle science also. Just like now mechanically you are flying. But there is science... Anything. I can fly with this stick. That is possible. Ākāśa*-patana. There is a science, ākāśa-patana. Kapota-vāyu. Kapota-vāyu. Now, you can train the pigeons, and it will, you'll fly in the sky. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vāyu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And a carpet also? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: You must have read the carpet*-flying in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I used to read such stories... Prabhupāda: Actually, the aeroplanes mentioned in the śāstra, they are not machine. Mantra. Dr. Patel: Mantra. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Because this puṣpa*-vimāna, it could land anywhere... *Guest (3): Puṣpa*-vimāna also. Prabhupāda: Yes, that was... *Dr. Patel: The puṣpa*-vimāna was with the... Prabhupāda: ...flying in mantra. Dr. Patel: Not, it was not... Prabhupāda: Now scientific improvement has been done, but that is on the gross material platform. Dr. Patel: Spiritually, they must be worthy. Prabhupāda: No, it is not spiritual. That is also subtle. Just like mind, the speed of mind. The mind is material. By mind speed, you can... Just imagine. You are here. Immediately, within a second, you go to Calcutta. Dr. Patel: Because you think of the thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: First going is mind going. Prabhupāda: So this is the mind. Similarly, mental, then intellectual,... You are going? Dr. Patel: No, no. You are going ahead. We have to come to that... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Mind is also material. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ kham. khaṁ manaḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Dr. Patel: Khaṁ manaḥ eva ca. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all material. Dr. Patel: But... But even in, even in... *Prabhupāda: The so*-called jñānīs, they are on the mental platform. Therefore, they are also materialists. Therefore Brahmā... You'll find in that Brahma-stotra, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya: "Give up this attempt to reach the Supreme by mental speculation." Jñāne prayāsam uda..., namanta eva: "Be submissive." Namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām: "Just hear from devotee the news of the message of God, Kṛṣṇa." That is the process recommended. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. Sthāne sthitāḥ. You haven't got to change your place. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You hear from the realized soul and try to apply in your practical life. Then, one day, although God is unconquerable, He will be conquered by you. This is recommendation by Brahmā. *Dr. Patel: I heard sometimes in bhakti*-yoga that you have to become pure, you have got to leave your body consciousness and become soul conscious... Prabhupāda: That is soul consciousness. Dr. Patel: In the other conscious, and then... Prabhupāda: Body consciousness is mental speculation. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. You must go beyond that. Prabhupāda: Ah. This is the gross body and subtle body. So when these jñānīs, they think that they have become liberated, but they are entrapped by the subtle body. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya... Dr. Patel: These yogis... Prabhupāda: Then they are also, the same thing: gross material thing. Dr. Patel: The yoga means to join yourself. Your self means not body, not even mind, but your soul, to the higher soul of, that means the God. That is real yoga. And that is as good as bhakti. Or you call it yoga, anything. Yoga and bhakti comes to same thing then. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is real yoga. Others are farce. Yoginām api sarveṣām [Bg. 6.47]. The bhakti is real yoga. That is real yoga. And this is farce. *Dr. Patel: Mad*-gatenāntarātmanā. Prabhupāda: Ah. That is real yoga. Dr. Patel: Antarātmanā. Prabhupāda: Antarātmanā means beyond his mind and intelligence... Dr. Patel: No, within yourself. *Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarve... So within yourself, if one thinks, antara mad*-gatena, Kṛṣṇa, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, that is first-class yogi. But the so-called yogis, they want to become Kṛṣṇa. "Now I have become God." Dr. Patel: But then I don't think they say they are becoming Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Dr. Patel: Their disciples say. As any disciple... Prabhupāda: These all rascals! Kick these disciple. Why... Wherefrom the disciple comes? From the rascals. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Eh? These rascals come... If the... Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. If rascals are produced, he's a rascal. Dr. Patel: But you are a guru. I am your disciple. Prabhupāda: So you see they are mine! They are not violating... Dr. Patel: I have not, if I have not taken you as a as a god, then I can get my knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is another thing! Dr. Patel: If I take you as a man, I have not got it. Prabhupāda: That is another thing! If God produces rascals, then he's a rascal! Dr. Patel: The guru has got to be taken as God. Prabhupāda: That is another... Guru has taken... Not that God, he's God only. Dr. Patel: Guru is not talk, God. *Prabhupāda: He's... just like your representative. Suppose if I have got you some business. There is a call: "If you love me, you love my dog." It is not the dog is you. Dog is different. But if you love somebody, you pat sometimes, "Oh,...," the dog. Just to satisfy him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. This is stated. If you satisfy guru, then God is satisfied. That does not mean guru is God. Dr. Patel: No, no, no! I don't say I think guru... Prabhupāda: Guru... Dr. Patel: I don't understand and you also don't understand me. I mean to say that disciples have got to take guru as God, and not this body as God. His ātmā is guru, and ātmā is God. So guru in that way is God. Prabhupāda: No, that is not... Dr. Patel: That is what I think. Prabhupāda: No! Dr. Patel: And I don't think I am wrong. Prabhupāda: No, why God...? Why do you make...? Why do you distinguish between guru's ātmā and guru's body? Dr. Patel: But the body... But the body's not guru! Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: Even if you say guru is body,... Prabhupāda: They make also Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's inside different. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is different from your body and my body. Kṛṣṇa body is spiritual. Prabhupāda: Then why do you make a... Once you say that guru is equal to Kṛṣṇa, and again Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa is not different, but guru's body and guru's soul is different. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: No. That's not right. Dr. Patel: Ātmā is, ātmā is guru... Prabhupāda: That's not right. Please note it. If you compare the guru is God, then you should compare similarity. Dr. Patel: Similarity, this body and Kṛṣṇa's body are different. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That is an ignorance. You do not know. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa's body is spiritual. His, any part of His body... Prabhupāda: The Māyāvādīs do that, that Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: He can hear, He can hear by His eye and hear by His finger. And satisfy anybody, by His anything. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. I mean to say that sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. When you accept guru equal to Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot make such distinction. Dr. Patel: Bodily distinction... Prabhupāda: Then why bodily or anything!? Dr. Patel: It is very important. Prabhupāda: It is the... No, no, no. They cannot make, say distinc... Dr. Patel: The body, this body... Prabhupāda: Cinmaya... Dr. Patel: ...becomes ill and he has got to come to a doctor sometimes. Prabhupāda: Body, that... If... Dr. Patel: But that, Kṛṣṇa's body is not that body. Prabhupāda: Not only, not only guru. Anyone who is spiritually advanced, he has no more material body. Dr. Patel: That's... From higher stand point of view. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you, if the guru is in the lower standard, then how he becomes guru? Dr. Patel: No, that guru who knows that he has no real material body, he's beyond the body consciousness, that is right. Prabhupāda: No, no! Even the material body's there... Dr. Patel: Guru thinks so, but what about this... *Prabhupāda: Even the material body is there, still he's to be taken as spiritual. That is the philosophy. The example is given: just like you have got an iron stick. You put it in the fire, and it becomes warm. And when it is red*-hot, it is no more iron stick. It is fire. Do you accept this? Dr. Patel: I accept it. Prabhupāda: Then? Similarly, one who is always merged in Kṛṣṇa thought, his body is not material. Dr. Patel: That way you say. Prabhupāda: Yes! Yes, that is the way. Dr. Patel: Now I understand. *Prabhupāda: Because his material body is not working. That is stopped. He's working simply spiritually. Therefore his body is spiritual. The same example: it has become so hot, red*-hot, that it is no more working as iron rod. It is working as fire. Dr. Patel: Because it burns anybody who touches it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So guru also does the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: He electrifies anybody who touches him. So we touch your feet. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Therefore, therefore he has no material body. Dr. Patel: No. *Prabhupāda: It is aparādha. Guruṣu nara*-matiḥ. This is forbidden. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Arcye śilā-dhīr... Just like everyone knows... The atheist class will say, "Oh, here is a stone statue, and these rascals are worshiping as Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: That is wrong. *Prabhupāda: So everyone knows that is a stone statue. But we are so fool that we are worshiping a stone statue? Therefore this is offense. Arcye śilā*-dhīr guruṣu nara... Similarly guru. Although he's working, moving just like ordinary human being, one should not consider that he's ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Dr. Patel: That is how the guru can be accepted by... *Prabhupāda: Everyone knows that "Here is a stone statue." Then so many hundred and thousands of people are coming to worship that stone statue? Somebody can argue. The atheist will argue. And when... So... We have got millions of temples. Especially in South India and Jagannātha Purī and many where. So are they going, spending so much money to worship a statue? That is forbidden. Guruṣu nara*-matiḥ. Guru should not be considered in that way. If he's actually guru. Dr. Patel: Guru, guru's śakti on his disciples comes from... Prabhupāda: The same. Dr. Patel: ...either way. Where the śiṣya draws his power and guru gives it. Prabhupāda: Yes, but if he has no power, how he can give? Dr. Patel: But... That is what I say. So we have to take guru as God. Prabhupāda: So therefore guru as God, not distinction that guru is so much God, and he is so much God. Dr. Patel: I don't say distinction. I... Prabhupāda: No, you said that distinction of body, distinction... Dr. Patel: I did not say that. You have to understood it differently. Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not. It is the guru principle we are talking. That is about guru. Dr. Patel: I want to learn from you. Prabhupāda: I am not guru. I am... I am... This is... The guru has no material body. Just like the statue is not material, similarly, guru's body is not material. Dr. Patel: You say that those gurus who appear as material body, you are not to take it as a material body. Say that way. Because we are little... *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not to take it. It is actually. If it is material body, then how they are getting benefits? If it is a material body. The same example: if it is iron rod, how it is burning? It is fire. When there is burning, you must assume it is fire. Why do you take, "Oh, it is iron rod"? Phalena paricīyate. Phalena paricīyate. By the result you have to... Therefore it is said, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. We, we have no direct contact with Bhagavān, but guru, being representative of Bhagavān, if we satisfy guru, then Bhagavān becomes... Identical. Therefore it is warned: vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Similarly, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Here is a European Vaiṣṇava, he's Indian Vaiṣṇava, it is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava and śūdra Vaiṣṇava." No. That is also, that is also offense. Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: Similarly, to consider guru's body as material, that is also wrong. Dr. Patel: I read somewhere that... Prabhupāda: No, no. Some... Dr. Patel: ...you have got to take guru as God from this point of view,... Prabhupāda: That... Dr. Patel: ...that he's ātmā. You are worshiping God... Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: Whatever vāda it is, I mean, that is... Prabhupāda: The Māyāvāda says, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is God within you." The Dr. Radhakrishnan said, the rascal. "Kṛṣṇa is within. The outside is material body." You have read that. Dr. Patel: There is no within and without... I have not read that. There is no within and without so far God is concerned. God is everywhere. *Prabhupāda: And similarly, similarly, guru also*-no within, no without. Otherwise how we can say, sākṣād-dharitvena. Directly, if you make distinction, how he can be directly? Dr. Patel: Within, without is (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. But he has attained that position on account of his being very, very dear to God. Because doing God's work. Eh? God says, "Surrender unto Me." Guru is preaching... That is real guru. He's preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." He'll never say, "Surrender unto Me." Dr. Patel: No guru says so. Prabhupāda: All rascals says. All rascals say. Dr. Patel: But rascals are not gurus. *Prabhupāda: No, no. The gurus, so*-called gurus, there are. These Māyāvādīs, all they say. "I am God." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nārāyaṇa. *Prabhupāda: "Let me now have rāsa dance. Send your children. Send your wife, send your daughter. We'll dance." These are all rascals, Māyāvādīs. Māyāvādī*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. This is the statement of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. As soon as one hears the statement of Māyāvādī, he's doomed, finished. He's finished. Dr. Patel: You have been bracketing so many good people like that, with the bad, and I feel strongly... Prabhupāda: Where is good people?! Where is good people?! Dr. Patel: ...about this philosophy of yours. Prabhupāda: All rascals! Let them come! Let them come. Yes! I shall kick on their face!!! I am so strong. Where is good man?! Dr. Patel: You see... Prabhupāda: I have already kicked already that... What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bala Yogi. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) and (Hindi). And he's a dog! In public meeting. Dr. Patel: I meet with all these fellows. We talk of general philosophy. Prabhupāda: So we have got some discrimination! Our is only point: If anybody is a Māyāvādī, he's a dog. Kick him on his face!! That's all. Dr. Patel: Māyāvādī means those people who... Prabhupāda: No! Māyāvādī means Māyāvādī. That's all. No explanation. Dr. Patel: What do you mean by Māyāvāda? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī means who thinks like that... Dr. Patel: All right, now, that is right. Prabhupāda: ..."Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is different from His body." That is Māyāvādī. Dr. Patel: There is no body of Kṛṣṇa. Whole thing is body. Prabhupāda: So Māyāvādī does not know that. Dr. Patel: And those people... Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. They think that Kṛṣṇa comes with a "māyā body." Therefore they are Māyāvādīs. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa has control over the Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: There, you'll find, you'll find in Dr. Radhakrishnan's book, the same thing. Dr. Patel: I never did read it. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: I have not read it. Prabhupāda: You should have studied because he's advertised as big scholar. *Dr. Patel: I studied the Puranian philosophy by Huxley. I think somebody must know, he was very good. He's stressed bhakti*-mārga. Huxley, Julius Huxley. *Prabhupāda: Well, if he's a bhakti*-mārga, then he would not have eulogized Ramakrishna. Dr. Patel: He is wonderful. Prabhupāda: He has eulogized Ramakrishna. Dr. Patel: (Hindi.) Prabhupāda: Yes, he has eulogized Ramakrishna, this Huxley. You know that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I didn't know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ramakrishna was a first*-class Māyāvādī. Dr. Patel: Which Ramakrishna? Prabhupāda: This Ramakrishna Mission. Dr. Patel: You are a guru. So I don't want to contradict. I am going. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, that is... Then you have got some selection of your own. Dr. Patel: I have no selection. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: I have to tell the truth. You may like or not like. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I have to say the truth. I am saying all over the world. Dr. Patel: That may be a truth, but all are not like that. Prabhupāda: He was a pākā Māyāvādī. Dr. Patel: That may be a truth... Prabhupāda: I am still repeating. Repeating. Dr. Patel: Let us go off. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was a pākā Māyāvādī. Just like... Just see that he said that he is a worshiper of goddess Kālī. Is it not? Dr. Patel: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Eh? And he became God. By worshiping Kālī. Just see how much Māyāvādī he is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ: [Bg. 7.20] "Anyone who is worshiping other demigods, his intelligence is lost." Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. And this man says that worshiping a demigod, goddess Kālī, he became God. Just see. How much great Māyāvādī he is! Where is the śāstra, where is in the śāstra, Vedic śāstra, that one becomes God by worshiping goddess Kālī? *Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit): Brahma*-vid brahma eva bhavati. Prabhupāda: Is there any evidence? There may... *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-vid brahma eva bhavati. *Prabhupāda: That is all right. That is another thing. Just like I gave the example: if you associate with fire, you also become fire. That is another thing, brahma*-vid. But here is no question of brahma-vid. Ignorance. Ignorance. Because brahma-vid, the Brahman, Supreme Brahman, says that "Those who are worshiper of demigods, they have lost their intelligence." So how he becomes...? A man who has lost his intelligence, how he can become brahma-vid? Brahma-vid is so easy thing? It is possible for a man who has lost his intelligence and he becomes brahma-vid? *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-vid cannot be attained by intelligence. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: You have got to go beyond intelligence, mind and everything. Prabhupāda: Well, we are beyond intelligence, beyond all rascals. We are beyond. That is another thing. Therefore we say... (end) Morning Walk -- February 25, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: Janārdana (Hindi) Mr. Sar: Yesterday I talked with doctor, no? That he is coming with Swamiji? Devotee: Eh? Mr. Sar: Yesterday I talked about doctor. Devotee: Oh, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: He comes from London, and he has received a telephone from him in London, when he was coming. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: From, in London temple of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, many pilgrims are coming from London, all parts of western countries. Africa. Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthday. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you all also come. Dr. Patel: On, on,... Prabhupāda: On the eighth. Guest (1): The sixth of March. Dr. Patel: That is on the day of Holita. Holi? No. Prabhupāda: Holi, yes. Dr. Patel: Māyāpura is in East Bengal? Prabhupāda: No, West Bengal. Border of East and West. [break] What these gṛhasthas? Dr. Patel: No, they are... Guest (1): (indistinct) Dr. Patel: We are not going there? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then, after Dvārakā, they are expecting us in Hyderabad by about the twenty... [break] Prabhupāda: ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. *Dr. Patel: Dharma*-saṁsthāpanārthāya. He must again become. Sambhavāmi yuge yuge. We must see that He comes. We are all praying sincerely that "Let God come now. Enough of this time!" Prabhupāda: He has come already. Dr. Patel: That is why some people say that... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: ...Kalki*-avatāra is born with... *Prabhupāda: Not Kalki*-avatāra. This Hari-nāma avatāra. Yes. Nāma-rūpe kali-kāle kṛṣṇa avatāra. Kṛṣṇa, in this age, He has descended in the form of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nāma-rūpe kali-kāle kṛṣṇa avatāra. The name is already there. It is being propounded all over the world. Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...temple. *Dr. Patel: No, but I mean to say because the temple is open you hear the noise. When the temple is closed, you won't hear the noise. That is, that should be all right. Because there is a next*-door temple also. It also makes noise. But your noise is now louder, I mean, far away because of the open space. That should be the argument: "Let us construct a regular temple. You won't..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...so much proud of the Hindus. Dr. Patel: I'm also proud of the Hindu. Always proud. Prabhupāda: But why they disturb maṅgala ārati? *Dr. Patel: But they may be degenerated Hindu, people may be Hindus, real Hindus, false Hindus and fictitious Hindus and non*-Hindus calling themselves as Hindus. So which type of Hindus do you mean? Prabhupāda: No. I mean Hindu Hindu. Dr. Patel: They may be born of Hindu family, but may not be Hindu. These are... They have made of a... [break] Prabhupāda: ...follower of yours. Dr. Patel: O.K., I am follower. Prabhupāda: You are, but, I mean to say, majority. Dr. Patel: Majority, greater majority of we follow. But there is a smaller majority followers minor... Prabhupāda: That is a... Dr. Patel: Minority follow big number. That is where our question is. And come what may, you may say anything. If you open a single temple... [break] ...ancient religion, even though they are Muslims. Prabhupāda: And Java. Dr. Patel: Java, Sumatra, the same thing. Java and Indonesia, the same thing. Java, Sumatra is called Indonesia now. Prabhupāda: In Indonesia, Jakarta I went. The Java Hindus, they gave me reception. Dr. Patel: The whole Bali Island is all Hindus. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Hundred percent Hindus. Prabhupāda: They arranged a reception for me. The Java Hindus. [break] Dr. Patel: No, no. His wife's name was *Gītā*. [break] Prabhupāda: Sanskrit name, Sukarṇa. "One who has got good ears." Sukarṇa. Guest (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: No, but local population is also, I mean, a very great... Prabhupāda: Local population (Hindi) Devotee: Sorry. Prabhupāda: Sorry, but why do you come? (pause, Hindi) One feet. Dr. Patel: Here you see so many people sitting behind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: This whole coast is being spoiled. Prabhupāda: This is sea, and that's a canal or a river only, small. Dr. Patel: They are... So far as the custom hygiene is concerned, I mean, the... We have actually been teaching personal hygiene through religion. This is the only country that... Prabhupāda: But that is also hygienic. After passing stool, they are taking bath in the river. That is good hygiene. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That is good hygiene. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The river is moving water, clean. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have seen. They are taking bath in the morning. [break] ...Jakarta people. Dr. Patel: They are better Muslims than these Punjabi Muslims. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Bengalis are very good. (laughter) Prabhupāda: And Marwaris? Dr. Patel: Marwaris are rascals. (laughter) Guest (1): (Hindi) Guest (1): I am not a Marwari, I am Agarwal. Mr. Sar: But you tell, Marwaris have built more temples. Dr. Patel: Agarwals are very intelligent community. They'll reject these gross things. (end) Morning Walk -- March 2, 1974, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...recognized as "American temple." What is this Maṭha? Śrī Caitanya... Bhavānanda: (indistinct) Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, about this one. (?) Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda asked about this Maṭha. Prabhupāda: Who, who is he? Bhavānanda: He's a renegade brahmacārī from one of your godbrothers. Prabhupāda: Prabhupāda dāsa. [break] Gargamuni: He seems to be helped by Mādhava Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gargamuni: He's the one that purchased the land on the north side of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) will go tomorrow? Prabhupāda: Yes. You time fix up. I am ready. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...when I don't remember, "Get out." This is Māyāvāda philosophy. "So long I require your help, I catch your hand. And as soon as I don't require, please get out" [break] Gargamuni: We have Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He, he was worshiping Viṣṇu at home, and he was trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, there are many Vaiṣṇavas like Jarāsandha*-apparently worshiping Viṣṇu-but trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. Jarāsandha-Vaiṣṇava. Jayapatākā: So what is the value of such worship of Viṣṇu? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: So what is the benefit of such worship of Viṣṇu? Jarāsandha worship? Prabhupāda: They will get material opulence. Asuras, they want material opulence. They, they do not understand what is spiritual life or spiritual happiness, what is devotional service. Neither they'd like to understand. Which way? Jayapatākā: Left here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...we heard from...? Gurukṛpā: From the Ganges? Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: From the Ganges? Jayapatākā: What is this land? (?) [break] Prabhupāda: "...near the brahmajyoti, I don't want. Now I have merged." This is Māyāvāda theory. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is all that silt from the Ganges River, Prabhupāda. Jayapatākā: This man, he wants to sell this land, seventeen bighās, for seven hundred rupees. [break] Madhudviṣa: How is that possible? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Madhudviṣa: How is the Ganges flowing through the planetary systems? Prabhupāda: So? It is not possible? Madhudviṣa: I don't know. It is possible, but it is incomprehensible. Prabhupāda: Everything is incomprehensible. How the planets are floating in this air? Madhudviṣa: Because Kṛṣṇa is in them. Prabhupāda: Then, similarly, Kṛṣṇa desires; everything is possible. *Jayapatākā: Madhudviṣa Mahārāja has given us only his T*-shirt. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Jayapatākā: He has given us nice shirt, Gaura*-Nitāi. Madhudviṣa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is a great opportunity, this taking bath along with the Vaiṣṇavas in the Ganges at Navadvīpa. Jayapatākā: By your mercy, you have given us such a great opportunity, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is all respectively. You are all Vaiṣṇavas. To take bath along with you is a great opportunity. Gurukṛpā: A great opportunity to be purified. [break] Bhavānanda: ...spiritual master. Then when he reaches a certain point, he lets go. What is...? What becomes of Him? He is also Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Māyāvādī philosophy. [break] ...philosophy, cakhudāna dilo yei janme janme prabhu sei. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings that, "One who has opened my eyes, my spiritual master, he's my father, life after life." So how he can, he can say, "Go away now"? That is Māyāvāda philosophy. (end) Morning Walk -- March 3, 1974, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: So that signboard... [break] Yes. Nitāi: What's the story behind the rediscovery of Māyāpura? Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: Is there some story related to the way in which Māyāpura was found by Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī? Prabhupāda: The Ganges is going sometimes that side, then this side. So it was under the impression that original Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthsite is now under water. Or there were many theories and suggestions. Later on, Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī said that "Here is the..." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nitāi: In previous days, it was a very big city. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Indian: Ācchā. (end) Morning Walk -- March 4, 1974, Mäyäpura Prabhupāda: ...every payasā you should spend for Kṛṣṇa. Not that "Kṛṣṇa is giving money. Let us squander it as much as we like." Then there will be scarcity. [break] What is that? Jayapatākā: This is a short cut. *Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. [break] ...pūjyante dhanya yatra sucancitam (?), "Where a rascal is not worshiped, where foodstuff is kept very carefully," and dam*-patyoḥ kalaha nāsti, "and when there is no fight between husband and wife, or family-wise," tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ, "there goddess of fortune is always present." Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the principle given by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, the greatest politician and moralist. Mūrkha means who is not pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. He's a mūrkha or mūḍha. Not that ABCD learned. ABCD learned is no use. And another śloka, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says who is learned man. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "One who does not think of any illicit sex life." Mātṛvat... Every woman-mother. Except his married wife, every woman is mother. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-loṣṭravat "And others' money, just like garbage." Nobody touches. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, and ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "And one who sees like himself all other living entities, he's paṇḍita, he's learned." Not by MA, Ph.D. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...yaḥ paśyati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. [break] ...nihāram iva bhā... It is called nihāra. As long, as soon as the sun becomes strong, immediately, everything finished. Just see. This... What is called fog, or...? Jayapatākā: Just like when you came to the West, Prabhupāda, you cleared away the fog. Prabhupāda: At least, I tried for that. Whatever is done it is done by Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...keeps intelligent to the sincere servant. Otherwise, everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. So if you, one is sincere to Kṛṣṇa, he will act everything rightly because the direction is... Buddhi yogaṁ dadāmi tam. The perfect direction is there. I do not know why people denies to take direction from Kṛṣṇa. He gets perfect direction. But he does not like to take. What is this tree? Jayapatākā: The imli, I think. Prabhupāda: Imli. Jayapatākā: Not imli? They call that... *Prabhupāda: No, no, not imli. Imli's different. This way, up to that river? [break] ...vāsudeva*-parāyaṇa. Vāsudeva-parāyaṇa, means Kṛṣṇa conscious person, they solve all questions by one thing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Exactly like the sun solves all the problems of this nihāra, foss. It is called foss? Jayapatākā: Fog. Prabhupāda: Fog. Jayapatākā: Mist. Prabhupāda: Nihāram iva bhāskara. Let the scientists do it in their scientific way, drive away the fog. Is there any process? Eh? In the ocean, when there is fog like this, they have to stop all the ships and cry, (makes sound like fog horn:) onnnh, onnnh, so that they may not collide. I have seen it when I was coming, going to USA. Where is Mohanānanda? He is here? No. Mohanānanda? Hare Kṛṣṇa. The difference between other camps and our: they call these men from their daily, I mean to say, life, householder's life, for this purpose for a week or so, but they are not dedicated. Here, in our camp, all our people are dedicated to the cause. That is the difference. So they cannot surpass your activities. Jayapatākā: Because you are dedicated, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should be dedicated, I or you. Does not... That is the success of life. Dedicate your life for Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection. Even there are some faults, even dedicated life is noble life. Maybe, due to our past habits, we may commit some faulty action, but that dedicated life is sublime. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya*-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Jayapatākā: This, from this... This is the land that we want to get. It starts from here. And that's our land there. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...immediately appreciates Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā*-bhāvikī... [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. It is being done as if automatically, but no, there is brain. That brain, these rascals, they cannot find out. Machine, nature only. What is this nature? Nonsense. So which way we shall go? This way? Up to the river? Jayapatākā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Each and every grain... Jayapatākā: Here's our mango tree. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viṣṇujana: Mango. Prabhupāda: Mango tree? Bhavānanda: Yes, we planted, uh... (end) Morning Walk -- March 5, 1974, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: ...no woman can... [break] So I took it very a cheap price. There was no question of woman. I kept my office there. And the address was Multani temple. It is a temple. Multani temple, Grant Road. And in my retired life my office was there, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple and Delhi, Chippiwada. And my residence was Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. And before that, that Keśī Ghāṭa. Who has seen that? You have...? Devotee: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: That was also temple. Yes. Indian devotee: Kṛṣṇa has arranged. Indian devotee: Very nice side, Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: I lived in that house for seven years. And then I came to Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Devotee: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Which way? [break] ...stayed in that Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple, Malliks. And still I am living in temple. So Kṛṣṇa has arranged nicely, from the beginning of my life, temple. Which way? This way? [break] Medhi, this is called medhi, this rod, center. So the, the bull is bound up with it and he goes round, goes around. All day. So gṛhamedhī means center is home, and he goes round. Throughout the whole life. They are called gṛhamedhīs. Hṛdayānanda: This is called medhi. Prabhupāda: Medhi, yes. Another medhi means killing. So one who keeps himself in household life, he kills himself. Killing, Gṛhamedhī. And that is little long term meaning. But this is the direct meaning. The medhi rod is there, and he simply... He's very busy. Busy means within few feet. But he's thinking he's very busy. Anyone got, he has got home, and he's simply rounding about. Anywhere you go. The center is that. And what is that gṛha? Where? Which way? Bhavānanda: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Na gṛhaṁ gṛham ity āhur gṛhiṇī gṛham ucyate. The gṛham, house, is not actually gṛha. Gṛha means the wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ucyate na gṛhaṁ gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ucyate. So to become householder means one must have a wife. So actually round the wife. Gṛhamedhī. Round the wife. And what is wife means, everyone knows. It means round that thing. Is that good analysis? Devotees: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: Na gṛhaṁ gṛham ucyate. [break] ...explain. It is not my manufacture. What is said? Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi... [break] ...tuccham. The gṛhamedhī's happiness, what is that happiness? Maithunādi. Sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. Gṛhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45]. Those who are gṛhamedhīs", what is their happiness? Sex. That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham. And what is that sex? Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is itching between the two hands. Kaṇḍūyanena kara. But the, after that itching, there is very bad effect. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. That is unhappiness. Therefore tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Those who are kṛpaṇāḥ, they are not satisfied. They want to do it... (end of recording) Morning Walk -- March 6, 1974, Mäyäpura Viṣṇujana: And there were only two Hindu gentlemen in the village and still, the Mohammedans received us and arranged for our kīrtana and prasādam distribution. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Viṣṇujana: We felt it was Nityānanda's grace. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Viṣṇujana: First we were afraid. Haridāsa Brahmacārī told me: "Oh, these are Mohammedans. They'll not help us in any way, nor will they accept prasādam." But then I said let us go... Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone will help us. Maybe... In that way sometimes Hindus are also against. It is not the Mohammedans. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's time, even the Hindus were against His movement, the brāhmaṇas. They complained to the Kazi that "This is not Hindu movement." You see? The saṅkīrtana movement. Therefore Kazi had to take steps to stop the saṅkīrtana movement. So Kazi took step on the ground of complaint by the Hindus. Nitāi: That's similar to what happened in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: That's similar to what happened... Prabhupāda: Yes. Nitāi: ...in Bombay. Prabhupāda: The Hindus, they wanted to break our temple, and they broke part of it. You do not know? Oh, how is that? There was a great agitation. By the instruction of the municipality, being bribed by the other party. You, you have not heard that we had so much...? Devotee: Not heard, no. Prabhupāda: How is that? It was very well... Jayapatākā: In our exhibition booth, we have put up articles about it. India exhibition. Bombay has exhibited the matter. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... [break] ...to take evening walk. This part, on the field, agricultural field. [break] ...if you have any land to purchase immediately, then I can ask Mahadevia, He can pay for that. [break] ...Americans without machine, they cannot sleep. They must smell, "Here is a machine." Then they can sleep. There was a fisherman. So at, in the evening... That is still in India. In the evening you can ask shelter from any householder's house. They'll give you shelter. So he came in the evening, "Sir, I want to pass night in your home." "All right, you are welcome." So the fisher basket, fishing basket. "You keep this here, outside, and you sleep inside." So whole day, he was restless. Then whole night, he could not sleep. Then the master said, "You are not sleeping?" "No, sir." "Why?" "Now, because my baskets are kept outside." "What is in the basket?" "No, unless I smell, I cannot sleep." (laughter) So these Americans, unless they smell about machine, they cannot sleep. "Habit is the second nature." For ordinary muscle work, they'll bring so many machines. I have seen. Karandhara was doing. At least that machine must come. (Makes sound like machine:) kat kat kat kat kat kat kat kat. Making hole. That machine is compulsory. Devotee: Recently, Prabhupāda, I saw one machine for... Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: For rubbing the nails, there is a battery operated machine. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Machine for cleansing, so many things. Devotee: And for nail rubbing also. Prabhupāda: Yes. For massaging. Everything. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: They have for brushing the teeth. Prabhupāda: Oh, very... *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: You just hold the toothbrush and the machine makes it go up and down. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Some scientists, they want to make all the different body parts. They want to give artificial arm, then artificial feet, and they're, they're spending all kinds of money and time making these complicated machinery to do the same thing that the body is doing. And the ultimate goal, these scientists were stating, their ultimate goal was to make a complete human body so that the person never has to die, but he can always change his body just before it breaks. Prabhupāda: But the maker of that machine will die. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: He cannot save himself. He can make a machine which will not die, but he will die. Is that all right? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: How much perfect he is, that you can consider, that he's making something perfect which will not die, but he will die. So he's imperfect. So how his machine is perfect? This is common argument. He's imperfect. But he cannot make such machine that he will not die. Satsvarūpa: They say in the future they will... Prabhupāda: Oh, that is, that is a... Kicking, they on their face. That is the only loophole on which we can kick on their face. You see? They are making machine perfect, but they cannot make themselves perfect. Why don't you ask that "Why don't you make a machine that you'll not die? Your machine will not die, I accept. You're so perfect. But why you will die? Why you will die?" What is their answer? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: They say that they will get to a point where, when each cause of their death, maybe, say, a bad heart, then they can get an artificial heart. Prabhupāda: All right, you can get everything. You will do it. But why don't you do it for yourself that you will not die? Satsvarūpa: They'll say, "That's all right. I'm working for posterity so that people who come in future generations..." Prabhupāda: What posterity. You cannot take help from your machine. What posterity you will take? It is nonsense. You are starving, and you, you want to speak that "I will distribute prasādam." What is this nonsense? You are starving, and you are proud of distributing food to others. Is that very good reason, a reasonable proposal? What...? First of all, you stop your starvation. Then you can say, "Now I have stopped my starvation. I'll distribute food to the hungry men." *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: All the scientists and leaders are all like that. They don't have the vaguest idea. They don't have the vaguest idea... Prabhupāda: Therefore we... *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: ...of anything. Prabhupāda: ...call them rascals and fools. They may advertise themselves as scientists, but we take them as rascals and fools. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Some of them so much want to be God, they're thinking they're going to create life and make bodies and this and that. Prabhupāda: The only question is that first of all, keep your life. Then you cure another life. Life in you is already there. Now keep it. Protect it by some machine or by some chemical. Then you talk all this nonsense. What do you think, Viṣṇujana Mahārāja? Viṣṇujana: At the fairs in the United States, they have exhibits of what the scientists are doing, and one scientist has actually invented a machine... Costs one hundred thousand dollars, and this machine can take the head of a man from his body and keep the brain cells still going, and they expect that this machine, they expect, they haven't done it to anyone because no one will do it... Prabhupāda: That expectation is always there. Any fool can expect anything. That is another thing. Viṣṇujana: But they've done it with goat head. Prabhupāda: We are concerned what you are doing now. That's all. We are not for expectation, future hope. We do not believe in that. Trust no future, however pleasant. It may be pleasant to you, but we don't believe it. You rascals, you can feel, but history shows that after death, no brain works. So we take this simple conclusion, that this brain is useless. So am I right or wrong? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: You are right. Prabhupāda: Sudāmā Vipra, you are very critical. You can say. Am I right or wrong? Sudāmā Vipra: You're right. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's... Svarūpa Dāmodara asked the scientist that, "You are beginning life from chemicals. Suppose I give you chemicals, can you make life?" "That I cannot say." This is their proposal. This is their... All rascals. And they're wasting public money and making other fools. They're going to the Candraloka and this loka, Venus. Simply wasting time. This remark I gave in the newspaper sometimes in San Francisco... *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: When they asked about the moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. It is simply waste of time and energy. That's all. And in 1968 I wrote that Easy Journey: "And this is all childish." *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Sputniks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Have you read that? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. It is very nice. Prabhupāda: So we can boldly say on the strength of Vedic literature that all these attempts are childish and those who are attempting, they're all fools and rascals. That's all. Now they're silent about moon expedition. They're trying to go to Venus. What happened to moon, moon planet? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yeah right. Prabhupāda: Another diversion. That's all. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Just wasting money and time. Prabhupāda: Another diversion of attention so that they can exploit public money in that way. And the public is also fooled that they believe all this nonsense. Viṣṇujana: In the United States, Prabhupāda, the rocks that they brought back from the moon are being displayed in all the different cities. They have little small pieces of the rocks from the moon. And people stand in long lines... Prabhupāda: Just see... Viṣṇujana: ...to come and see these little pieces of rock. Prabhupāda: ...how much rascal you are. Viṣṇujana: And they have guards all around the little rocks. Prabhupāda: Gods? Viṣṇujana: With guns, with guns. Prabhupāda: Oh, guards. Viṣṇujana: With guns. So no one will steal. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: That is their Deity. They are worshiping. They have guards. Devotee: They don't pray God, who has made all of this. *Prabhupāda: No, that one, I mean to say, rogue, thief, came to a bank manager. Somewhere in Western countries. And he brought some lotions. So he said that "I shall mix up these lotions. Immediately the whole bank will be blown up." So he became afraid because the scientists do that. So... "So you give me check immediately, two hundred millions or something, otherwise I'll mix it." So he gave him that check. And... Because they were... "It is time bomb. If you call police or arrest me within this time, then it will blown up." So in this way, he took away the check. And after sometimes, he phoned to the police, "This is the situation. Come and help us. Here is a time bomb on my table." So police came. They also took it very carefully in the chemical laboratory. And in the chemical lab, they were also afraid. Then they saw it is glycerin. That's all. Such fools are there. You see. It is simply exploiting the innocent public of their money, hard*-earned money. That's all. And if you go to such foundation that "Give us some money for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, printing these books," "No, no. We are not interested in religion. We are for scientific improvement, glycerin." *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Rational. They think they are very rational. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rational. A dog is also rational. But a dog is dog, a man is man. Dog, if a dog is called, "Hut", he's not rational? He'll stop immediately. So is not rational? *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That is rational. One who has got reason. "So this man wants to check me." So he stops. For eating, he has rational, what is his eatable. Dog does not like preparation made with too much ghee. They will like meat, rotten meat, and dried bones. That is rational. "This is my food." *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. And similarly, hog also, he likes to eat stool than halavā. He has got rationality. As you will not eat stool, you will like halavā, you have got rationality, then hog has got rationality. He'll not eat halavā, he'll eat stool. So where is the want of rationality? Why don't you eat stool? That is rationality. So similarly, he does not eat halavā. So where is the difference between you in the matter of rationality? You deny something, he denies something. Where is want of rationality? Jayapatākā: Bhavānanda has said that in his previous life he had a pet pig, and he used to offer the pig sweet, but the pig would take the sweet and... He would not eat it. He would roll it in dirt. And when it is filled with dirt, then only he would eat. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: It tasted so bad, he had to have something that tasted good around it so that he could get it down. Prabhupāda: (laughs) It is not for the hog, but a human being... I had a friend. If you give him rasagullā, he'll want little salt. Rasagullā with little salt, he'll eat. Without salt, he cannot eat. And my father, he was, at the last stage of his taking, some rice mixed with milk. While eating that, he'll take a little curry also. So it is a taste. Jayapatākā: Paramahaṁsa and Parivrājakācārya were preaching in... Where was that? The East? What is that nation? Siam? Parivrājakācārya: Thailand. Jayapatākā: Thailand. And there they would offer the people rasagullā, but they would put soy sauce on it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: They would put this bitter sauce on it. Then only they would take. Prabhupāda: And in Burma, my Guru Mahārāja opened a branch. So when they were frying puri, the, nice ghee, all the tenants, "Oh! What you are...!?" (laughter) They cannot tolerate. But in Burma, there is a preparation which is called nafi. The nafi means that a, a big jar will be kept on the door, and whatever animals, insect, cockroaches will die, they'll put in that. And during rainy season, it will be filled with water. And it will be kept for years. Then... And the bad smell was so terrible that if somebody would open the lid, it will immediately create very bad smell. So after some years, they will strain the water and keep in bottle. And when there is festival, they'll supply it in small... That is called nafi. And they'll take it very pleasantly. And when they were frying ghee, "Oh! What you are doing, this?!" Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says that Devotee: No. Nobody would. *Prabhupāda: So the Brahman realization is like that. Every living entity, he wants ānanda. Ānanda means just like we are walking together, talking together. This is ānanda. If I would have walked alone, it would have been no ānanda. I do not like. Nobody likes. So ānanda means there must be entourage. Therefore ānanda is with Kṛṣṇa. When we play with Kṛṣṇa, we dance with Kṛṣṇa, talk with Kṛṣṇa, serve Kṛṣṇa, take care of Kṛṣṇa, then there is ānanda. And simply to become one with the Brahman, then you will have to fall down again. Therefore jñāna*-kāṇḍa is not perfect. And karma-kāṇḍa is, you can migrate from one body to another or one planet to another. You'll be brahmāṇḍa bhramite. You have to wander. And jñāna-kāṇḍa means you merge. That is also intolerable. Therefore unless you come to bhakti-kāṇḍa, there is no question of real life and bliss. That is the conclusion. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: And after eating meat, then seven hundred years old loaf. Cut it and add with little butter. That's all. And then take wine. Bās. Kadarya bhakṣaṇa kare. Now they're eating rasagullā. Am I right or wrong? Devotees: Right. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: I didn't hear what you said. Now they're eating... Prabhupāda: Explain. Jayapatākā: Previously they were only eating meat. Now they're taking rasagullā. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Oh yes. Jayapatākā: So their taste has improved. Devotee: That is our kīrtana party. Viṣṇujana: Yes. Jayapatākā: Ācchā, the way back we passed. Do you want to go back yet or around to the end? *Prabhupāda: Eh? [break] ...In every life, there is āvaraṇātmikā-śakti. He'll think that "I am very well situated." Even in the hog's life. That is māyā. Similarly, even if you are thinking, "Now we have got human body. We are well situated than the hog," that is also mistake. That is also mistake. "I am European, American, I have got so comfortable." Everything is wrong. Because you have to transmigrate. You do not know what is the next life. So what is the meaning of this well*-situated. That is the mistake. That is māyā. You are not sure that you'll continue this life. You'll have to die. You have to accept. So this is māyā. Somebody well-situated, he's thinking, "Oh, I haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am well situated. I am European and American." Jayapatākā: Watch out here. *Prabhupāda: Where is our... [break] (kīrtana*-party in background) ...that "Europeans and Americans will come, and they will dance here with the chanting, "Jaya Śacīnandana, Jaya Śacīnandana!" So that is being done. Devotee: That is being done. By the mercy of Prabhupāda Mahārāja, everything has become possible. Prabhupāda: Oh... So when they chant and dance, I simply remember Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. That's all. I pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "Now they have come to your shelter. Give them protection." That's all. What can I do more? I cannot do anything more. [break] *Devotee: ...bhakti*-mārga. And ours is also bhakti-mārga. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Vaiṣṇava. Devotee: Then what is the difference in our philosophy and... *Prabhupāda: No, that is not different. That is variety, that they worship Bāla-Kṛṣṇa, and we worship Kiśora-Kṛṣṇa. We worship Bāla*-Kṛṣṇa also. Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, they worship all kinds of pastimes of Kṛṣṇa. But they specially stress on Bāla-Kṛṣṇa, child Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual variety. There is no difference. That is not difference. Cid-vaicitra. The exact name is cid-vaicitra. Cit means spiritual. Vaicitra means varieties. Where this road goes? Jayapatākā: This one goes down on the river side. (?) Prabhupāda: Hmm. So... [break] Devotee: ...Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, very prominent. When Lord Caitanya came, He made the worship of... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Devotee: ...Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa very prominent. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Devotee: The Vaiṣṇavas before... *Prabhupāda: No, other Vaiṣṇavas. But... The on... This Vaiṣṇava party, they stress on Bāla*-Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla. We also, we have got our Gopāla, as Mādhavendra Purī installed a Gopāla. That Gopāla is now worshiped, Nāthavara (?), by the Vallabha-sampradāya. That is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava Deity. It is admitted in the court. [break] ...the modern civilization is that they do not know that this, there is transmigration of the soul, and this constant change of body is not very good. They do not know anything. Neither they do know that there is change of body. Neither they feel that "The constant change of body is not very good. If there is any remedy?" These rascals, they do not find the final remedy. They are busy with the temporary problems. Real problem they set aside. [break] ...simply being bewildered by the three guṇas, sattva-rajo-tamo-guṇa, they do not know the ultimate goal is Kṛṣṇa. They do not know it. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: It's better this way. Jayapatākā: Let's go down this side, this way. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: [break] ...body when it's old and wears out, and yet they're spending all their energy... Prabhupāda: No, he desires. He creates his body. Just like the, sometimes the Mohammedans, they think that tiger is the best life. Sera. Sera. Wa (?) sera haya. Means to become a tiger is the perfection of..." You become sera. That's all. Kṛṣṇa gives... He is within the heart. "All right, I'll give you chance. Become a sera." But when he becomes sera, he does not eat for months. You'll never find a sera very fatty. Because he cannot eat. Every animal knows, "There is a tiger." They avoid. By chance, he can hunt out. Viṣṇujana: Farrow. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viṣṇujana: The farrow bird. Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇujana: He'll call. *Prabhupāda: This is the position. "You wanted to become a sera. All right, you become a sera. Jump over some animal and immediately suck his blood." All facility is*-the nails, the teeth-given. But is he happy? But everyone thinking that "If I could become like this, I would have been happy." So Kṛṣṇa gives all chance. "All right, you become this." This is transmigration. This is transmigration. [break] ...yathāndhair upa... We are thinking something like that, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us chance, "All right, you take this chance; *you become like this." Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. But it will not make you happy. Therefore ultimately says, sarva*-dharmān. "You give up all this rascaldom. What I speak, you can accept. That is your dharma." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam... [Bg. 18.66]. That will be beneficial for you, the most confidential instruction. There is that story that one old woman, she was suffering. And she had to collect woods from the forest and sell in the market. So one day, how do you say, she was praying to Kṛṣṇa, or God, that "Kindly help me. I am in very poverty-stricken." So one day, she was carrying that load of fuel. It fell down. So nobody was there to help him. So she began to cry, "Who will help me?" So she began to pray to God "Kindly help me." And God came: "What do you want?" "Who are you, Sir?" "I am God." "Kindly help me to take this burden on my head." Yes. "All right." From God, she's asking, "Please help me to get this burden on my head." That's all. So everyone is going on, "Let family be very happy, my son be married. He may... Let him pass MA examination." But it is the same thing, "Give me the burden on my head." This is the prayer. Mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. The life was meant for understanding Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, and he's asking, "Give me the burden on my head." Therefore mūḍha, rascal, fool. He's asking something which will never make him happy, even by merging into the effulgence, Brahman effulgence. It will never make him happy. But he does not know. Therefore he's mūḍha, rascal. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: That's a very clear example. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Very clear. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is asking, "Please help me to get this burden on my head." Everyone is asking. [break] Kṛṣṇa mantra means asking nothing from Kṛṣṇa, but only praying, "Please engage me in Your service." This is Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now let him engage, whatever service He likes. I don't dictate that "Give me this service." That is also sense gratification. As soon as I'll say that "Engage me in this type of service," that is also sense gratification. When one surrenders fully that "Engage me in Your service in whatever way You like," that is pure devotion. You cannot dictate Kṛṣṇa. Because He wants, sarva*-dharmān... "First of all surrender, then I will give you. I will allot what kind of service you can do." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva... [Bg. 18.66]. But if I dictate, then Kṛṣṇa will be..., "All right, you take this." Then you again become unhappy. Don't dictate Kṛṣṇa. Be dictated. That is happiness. But everyone is dictating, "Please give me this. Give me this. Give me that. Give me that. Give me this." Why should you dictate Kṛṣṇa? As soon as I dictate, that is my sense gratification. That is not pure devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Make zero all your desires. It doesn't matter, this desire or that desire. Any kind of desire. Whatever you desire, that is material. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. That is pure devotee. Devotee: That takes practice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: That takes practice, to stop desiring for oneself. Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore... Devotee: You have to practice... *Prabhupāda: ...the practice is that you should simply desire what your spiritual master says. Don't desire yourself. Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. If you fulfill the desires of your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased." Because he's the representative, the immediate representative, boss, if you satisfy him, the master, supreme master, is also satisfied. If he gives report, "This clerk is doing nice," that is sufficient. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. This is the injunction. Jayapatākā: So human life was no advantage. Only because you have come, now it can be advantage. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayapatākā: Human life is no special advantage. Only if you come, the spiritual master comes, then it can be some advantage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Vedic injunction is gurum eva abhigacchet: "You must go to a bona fide spiritual master if you want to make your life perfect." There is no question whether I shall go or not. "You must!" That is the beginning of human life. Otherwise animal life. He has no spiritual master. He's not going to obey anyone. He's working in his own whims. That is animal life. Real life here begins. Devotee: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) *Devotee: They're self*-interested. They're making money and forgetting the public. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Godless. They must be like that. Gandhi was a student of Bhagavad*-gītā-never taught about Kṛṣṇa. This is his knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: They want the material after killing the source. After killing the cows, they want milk. After... Prabhupāda: Gandhi was approached by the Hindus that "You are doing so much for the Mohammedans. The Mohammedans are obedient. So why don't you stop this cow killing?" "How can I interfere with their religious?" Just see. Devotee: This is... Prabhupāda: "Cow killing is religion." And he was such a fool that if somebody said that "Cutting the throat of others is my religion," he would allow, "Yes, you can do that." Jayapatākā: Go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda? [break] *Devotee: ...proof that the cause of cancer is beef*-eating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: I have... *Prabhupāda: Leprosy. Leprosy is also due to beef*-eating. Get it folded. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: The third greatest cause of accidental death in, in the world... Prabhupāda: Is intoxication. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: It is... Prabhupāda: Yes, this drunkard. Especially the drunkard, they collide. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: I think that's the second. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: But the, this one is the choking on meat at dinner table and dying, suffocating. It's very wide-spread. And in restaurants, while they're eating meat, they get so into eating, they want to swallow to eat the next piece. So they, before chewing enough, they have a big lump of meat in the mouth, and they swallow and they choke. They get caught. So in many big restaurants, they have these fancy forks like this that if somebody's choking, they go to the table, a very nice waiter, and he sticks the thing down the throat and pulls out the meat. Then the person can continue eating. But it is a very high cause of death in the world. They choke on meat. Prabhupāda: Just like dog. Dog, if you give... *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Because the teeth are not made... Prabhupāda: ...meat. (makes sound) Like dog. Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: But the dog doesn't choke so much. Well, sometimes they choke, though. Prabhupāda: Dog is a natural animal. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: He has teeth for meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: The human beings, they don't have so much teeth for meat. So they're trying to eat, and then they choke. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...sness movement is all*-embracing, all problems. People should carefully study and take it. Then they will be happy. Otherwise all plans are nonsense, the scientists, the philosophers, the... All rascals. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. They appear to be very learned, but māyā has killed them already. They have no knowledge. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Just see. Why? Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Life is created by God. They'll not accept. "Life is created from dirt." That's all. Māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Where is the instance that you create life by chemicals? "That we shall see in the future." Kick him immediately on his face with boot. Rascal. Will you accept any check, "It will be paid in future?" Will you accept? So why shall I accept this rascal's theory? If somebody gives me check, one million dollar, payable three hundred years after, shall I be inclined to accept such check? So why these fools accepting this post-dated check? Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda, they say they've already done so much. The scientists will say... Prabhupāda: What they have done? What they have done? Why people are starving? What you have done? Viṣṇujana: But they'll say we have created so much machineries and gone to the moon. Prabhupāda: You cannot eat machine. You produce. You produce rice, wheat in the machine. What you have done? You have simply misled the people that instead of tilling the ground, they have come to machine, and there is no food. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: You have done this. You have, on the false plea that "We'll give you five hundred rupees salary. You come in the city and be engaged." Oh, he saw, "Oh, I am simply producing my food. If I get five hundred rupees, then I'll go to cinema, I'll have a good dress." Now there is no food even. You have done this. That's all. What is the benefit of this machine. Machine benefit is that we were purchasing, when there was no so much machine, in our childhood, three rupees, four annas per mound, first*-class rice. Now we are purchasing one Kg. *Devotee: Ten rupees Kg. For one rupee (indistinct) first*-class wheat. Prabhupāda: Just see. So if one is rascal, they will be misled by this. Otherwise, any sane man will not accept. They say that, "We have done so much." What you have done? You have done this. At least in India, the effect of machine and factories: that there is no rice, no food. Devotee: With the machines they're mixing stones in the rice. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: With machine help, they're mixing stone in the rice. Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it, that you cannot get. Oh, you have done so much. But India is not meant for machine. These rascals, they do not know. India is, India's culture is plain living, high thinking. You require some food. Produce food, and take it, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they'll not accept, "Oh, this is primitive. Nowadays we have got... We must have the motor car, motor tire." Devotee: Farmer sees that a job of three hundred rupees and runs away to city. He will not work in the field. Then there will be no food. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they require. They require. The cow is being killed, and that's all. That is sufficient food for them." And let the farmers work for me, for bolts and nuts and motor tire. We make huge profit." You see. You are making profit, but other... Devotee: What is the use of that profit, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, when don't get even for eating, no clothing, no eating? Only profit... What profit will be beneficial? Prabhupāda: No, but they don't care for others. But they're having wine and women with their black market money. That's all. They're satisfied. They do not know... (end) Morning Walk -- March 7, 1974, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: Everyone will understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is proved. We are going to Africa. We are going to Canada, Europe, America. Everyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the language. When a young man and young woman loves one another, there is no question of language. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Suppose you are in a foreign country. You do not know the language. But when there is fire, you get friends without any language." You see? In the beginning of British rule, there were not very many English*-knowing Indians so a clerk in his office was working. So monkey came and he scattered the office papers. So after the monkey was driven away, he was collecting the papers. In the meantime, his English boss came. "What is this, man?" So he could not say. He began to jump. You see. "Monkey, sir. Monkey, sir. (laughter) Monkey, sir." "All right. All right. That's all right." Simply to inform, without any language, you can jump, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." And he will understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (Bengali) Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: [break] (Bengali) Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. Do this. [break] ...and for constructing four buildings like that. [break] Kṛṣṇa took part in politics. So what is His politics? What is His sociology? What is His culture? Guest: Support the right minority? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Support the right minority? Prabhupāda: There is no question of minority. Support the right person. Kṛṣṇa supported Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira in place of Duryodhana. So formerly it was monarchy. That is perfect politics. This democracy is useless. It has proved. One man, the king, he should be properly educated how to rule, what is the aim of ruling, how the people will be, I mean to say, culturally elevated, what is that culture. [break] There was a consulting board of learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons. They would advise the monarch how to rule. Jayapatākā: This is... This is the land here. Prabhupāda: This is the land? Jayapatākā: Yeah, we're walking over it. We're going through... [break] *Śyāmasundara: Elizabeth, in England, she's got a..., what she calls a "think*-tank" or a board of advisors who meet and advise her on different policies. Prabhupāda: Privy council. *Śyāmasundara: Something like that. It's called a "think*-tank". She's named it. It's presided over by Lord, Lord Goodman. *Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is, unless the people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, either this board or that board, that will not help. First of all, people should know what is the aim of life, what is culture, how the human activity should be directed. The people should know first of all this. Otherwise, changing from frying pan to the fire, it is useless. That is going on. That change, revolution, is going on. Just like the Russian people, they changed the Czarist government into communist government, revolution, but still, they're unhappy. They're trying to change by another revolution. This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. This is described in the śāstra as "chewing the chewed." Or the same simple philosophy: "This side of stool is better than that side." So he keeps the whole thing, stool. "This side, the dry side, is better and the moist side, wet side, is bad." This is no philosophy. It, it must not be stool. It must be gold. Then it is all right, this side or that side. That philosophy, that the dry side of stool is better than the wet side, this will not help. So first, first of all, human society must know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. We are part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. We are suffering on account of our relationship with God. This is the cause of our suffering. Then we have to make plan how to revive our lost relationship with God. Then the... Everything is there in the Vedic literature. All directions are there. So we have to... Just like when we are in danger, we consult some learned man or physician or a lawyer, similarly we have to consult the Vedic culture, how perfect it is. This way? Jayapatākā: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then everything is there. You haven't got to manufacture anything. And the Bhagavad*-gītā is the gist idea of all Vedic culture. And our propaganda is to establish that gist idea of Bhagavad-gītā. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So therefore I am asking. "What is the politics of Kṛṣṇa?" Kṛṣṇa's politics was to have a king of the world which..., Kṛṣṇa conscious, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the Kṛṣṇa's politics. He wanted to replace. So the first politic is to replace these so-called leaders, demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is that land? This land? Jayapatākā: We already walked over it. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: You're talking. So I don't want to interrupt. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayapatākā: But on the way ba... It's that land over there. Prabhupāda: So where are... Where are those boys? That Svarūpānanda? *Jayapatākā: They may have gone back to the temple now. This land... I'm sending... Because land, different land takes different time, so I'm sending both information out for this land here-It goes from this path, this, over to the other side of the barley, right to the river edge, twenty bighās*-or this one, ten bighās, whichever is first. This is more fertile. For agriculture, this one... Prabhupāda: So which one, like you like? Guest: Whichever one is possible. As he says, "First come, first served." Prabhupāda: All right. So you arrange. During stay, arrange something. Guest: Something available here also? Śyāmasundara: This is the old river bed, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayapatākā: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...will help us. (Bengali) So you purchase on this side land. Jayapatākā: This land is for sale with this dhow (?) here. (end) Morning Walk -- March 9, 1974, Mäyäpura *Prabhupāda: He's situated as Paramātmā, antaryāmī, everywhere, aṇḍāntara*-stham, within the universe as Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, within the heart of everyone, and even within the atom. Then how we can walk? Kṛṣṇa is within the atom. How we can walk? If somebody says, "How we are walking on the road?" Because in the atom there is God. Within... Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. Guest (1): In everywhere... Prabhupāda: So this, this is combination of paramāṇu, atom. So how we can walk? People may question like that, that "In, within the paramāṇu, there is Kṛṣṇa. How we are walking on this road?" So this question you should all understand very... You know that upon the mandira, we do not stay. Just like our Vṛndāvana mandira is being constructed. There is no residential quarter upon the mandira. Similarly, when the mandira will be constructed, we are not so fool that we'll show, we'll go and stay upon the mandira. But mandira is not constructed yet. So what shall we do? Guest (1): Worship should go on. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we have temporary situated mandira in the same building. We cannot stop our worship. That is not possible. Because one cannot go upon the mandira, because the Lord is now being worshiped within the residence, it does not mean we can stop His worship. Worship must continue in any condition, apratihatā, without being impeded by any rules and regulations. This is called rāga*-mārga. Vidhi-mārga, and there is rāga-mārga. Vidhi-mārga means under rules and regulations, and rāga-mārga means out of love. That is another thing. There is another instance. Govinda was personal servant of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So after His dinner, Govinda used to give Him massage on the leg. So one day Caitanya Mahāprabhu fell down on the ground and began to sleep on the door. So Govinda was to give massage to His leg. So he crossed Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and began to... Guest (1): Walk. Prabhupāda: No, not walk. Giving massage. So He was sleeping. So at two or three o'clock when Caitanya, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu became awake: "Govinda, you are sitting here. You have not taken your dinner?" "No, sir." "Why?" "Now, how could I cross you and take my dinner?" "Then how you came?" "No, that is for Your massaging. (laughter) But I cannot cross You for my dinner." Guest (1): Yes. "For You I can cross." Prabhupāda: For You, I can do anything. Guest (1): For You... Prabhupāda: For Your service. Guest (1): For your service. Prabhupāda: But for my sense gratification, I cannot do that. Guest (1): Very good answer. Prabhupāda: In a, in the Western countries, I had to sometimes do something which I should not have done. But I've done it to bring so many souls to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmānanda: The preaching necessitates that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is no other alternative, what can I do? In the beginning I had no disciples. So I was cooking myself. So one gentleman, he... Later on, he became my disciple. He gave me some place. I was cooking. And in the refrigerator, I saw there was meat. (laughs) So I asked: "What is this?" He said, "It is for cats. I don't take meat." "All right. (laughter) I'll do (?)." So of course, I stayed there for three, four days. And if I cry, "Oh, I have violated my rules and regulations..." Rules and regulations can be violated when there is urgent necessity of service, not whimsically or for one's sense gratification. And that is, of course, in our present..., with the permission of the spiritual master, not one should think, "Oh, I have become so much great devotee, I can violate all the rules and regulations." No, you cannot. If there is need of violating rules and regulations, you must take permission. Now we have no temple. Under the circumstances, we are doing that. So you construct the temple as soon as possible so that people may not criticize you. [break] ...for all gṛhastha devotees, you should begin preaching amongst the gṛhasthas. It is not forbidden for the gṛhasthas to preach. Because preaching is required everywhere. Arjuna was gṛhastha. So yei kṛṣṇa*-tattva-vettā sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. One must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can become preacher. Guest (1): It is temporary... Prabhupāda: You have yet to see what is temple. "Temple will be constructed. This is not temple." I wanted to stay in the dharmaśālā of Tīrtha Mahārāja, to construct the temple. I requested him that "Some of my men will stay in the dharmaśālā." He refused. Then how can I construct temple? Therefore I have first constructed residential quarters. And unless my men live here, how can I construct temple? So this is residential quarter. This is not the temple. The temple has yet to be done. So suppose we have no regularly constructed temple, do you think we shall give up worship of the Lord? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest (1): We must continue it. Prabhupāda: That's it. Because there is no temple... Bhavānanda, you are understanding? Bhavānanda: Oh yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): We can do our worship anywhere else. Prabhupāda: Yes. And it is said... Guest (1): Anywhere, in the jungle, anywhere else. Prabhupāda: ...bhakti. Bhakti, the definition of bhakti is given in the Bhāgavata, apratihatā. Pratihata means impediment. I have seen amongst the Mohammedans. It is very good. As soon as their namaz time is there, anywhere they will... Guest (1): Anywhere, anywhere, they will. Prabhupāda: It is very good. Guest (1): Even on road, they will... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): On the boat, on everywhere. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Guest (1): The four times, three times, namaz. Prabhupāda: They're so regulated, as soon as the time is there, anywhere, they'll worship. Guest (1): There was big trouble about them... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): There was big trouble about them in London for some time. Prabhupāda: What is that? Guest (1): Because they would leave their work and start praying. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest (1): Then the work was stopped, and later on, it was sorted out. They were allowed to do their worship. Guest (2): [break] ...cultured under, say, very comfortable circumstances. This has a relation to constant inquiries from public, specially young men, at the entrance of our mandira, our, this building, these days. I was sort of doing, helping them for entrance and exit. In that course, many young people specially they asked, "How could people living in so much comfortable circumstances could hear and ask for bhakti." Prabhupāda: Then does it mean that those who are...? Guest (2): I, knew... Yes... Yes...? Prabhupāda: Those who are in uncomfortable situation, they are big bhaktas? (laughter) Can you show me that because they're in uncomfortable situation, they have become big bhakta? Is that the proof? What is this land? Bhavānanda: This land we were looking at a few days ago? You suggested purchasing it for grazing. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice. So it is possible? Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, so do it. [break] ...bhakti's, as I explained, apratihatā. Any condition, bhakti can be executed. The example is given: Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī and Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya was gṛhastha and governor, and he was very comfortably situated. And Rūpa Gosvāmī was living underneath a tree every night. And both of them were equally... Rather, Rāmānanda Rāya was accepted in greater position than Rūpa Gosvāmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in renounced order of life, but He gave even better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī. And Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha. He was not even a brāhmaṇa. And governor, very opulent. Very comfortable situation. You know this? Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So how Caitanya Mahāprabhu treated them equally or gave better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī? This question was raised*-not only now-when our Guru Mahārāja started Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he was allowing the sannyāsīs to live in palatial building and go in car for preaching work. So many such persons questioned, "How is that, sannyāsīs are going in car, living in palatial building?" So our Guru Mahārāja replied that "A devotee should be offered the best comfort of life. And if he would not have introduced this comfortable life, at the same time, to become pure devotee, then these devotees from Western countries will, would never come. They would never agree to sit down under the tree and, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī... That is not possible." Do you understand or not? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is your answer? Guest (2): I answered that... Prabhupāda: No, no. You answer me. I am talking with you. Guest (2): Actually, I didn't know... Prabhupāda: Now, in our building we have got the most comfortable situation. There is no such sanitary arrangement in any of the temples. But we are trying to give them. Because we deal, dealing in a different atmosphere. Guest (1): People of the different countries can... Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are... Guest (1): They are not habituated... Prabhupāda: They are not habituated... Guest (1): ...with this... Prabhupāda: ...to go on the field and pass, evacuate. Guest (1): ...to pass their obnoxious and Prabhupāda: Then it will be a great difficulty for them. Guest (1): ...great difficulties for them. And to... Prabhupāda: They must be given, as far as possible, their western type of comforts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): And they're born and brought up in this... Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed so much for me. They are ready to lie down under the tree. But it is my duty to see they are, as far as possible, they're comfortably situated. That is my duty. They can agree to live in any condition. Guest (2): Gargamuni said me like this one day, and myself and one of the devotees went to draw the ration from the river in the distance, two miles off. And the devotee's saying, "We'll go by the car." And "Let us go by the rickshaw." Prabhupāda: Yes, they do like that. Guest (2): I like to save the paths(?) of the temple. And that devotee's not... Up till devotee, but he was a worker, his whole time living in the temple. And I asked Gargamuni, "Your devotee is saying, 'We'll go by car. It is expensive. Because we are collecting money from the different peoples and from the public. And we must not use our money in this way.' " Prabhupāda: Jaya. For Kṛṣṇa bhakti, yes. Guest (2): Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Guest (2): (Bengali) [break] Dhanañjaya: ...who are very much attracted to living in Māyāpura, residing in Māyāpura, after perfecting their lives, do they sometimes join Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's saṅkīrtana movement in Goloka Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Let me... [break] Those who are living in Māyāpura, they have already joined. Dhanañjaya: Haribol. Prabhupāda: Guest (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: It is just to give His personal example that a sannyāsī should not be very much intimately mixing with rich men. That is by His personal example. He was a sannyāsī. He refused to see a king because a king is supposed to be always busy in material affairs. So if... For the general people aspiring to go back to home, back to Godhead, for them, to mix with the materialistic persons is forbidden. Viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitāṁ ca [Cc. Madhya 11.8]. Those who are viṣayī, simply engaged in sense gratification, and yoṣitām... Yoṣitām means women or enjoyable things. Guest (1): Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmmm. *Guest (1): Many religious institutions, they welcome the rich peoples. Those who are coming by cars, and those who are coming gorgeously, and they are donating much to the institutions, they are welcomed by the people, management of these institutions. And this is your version. It is just contradictory. I accept your version. It is quite, quite right. And I hope our institution must do not like that. This ISKCON must not do like that. The well*-to-do peoples who come, they'll get more... [break] ...more receptions, more congratulations. I request it must be your direction that our institution ISKCON must not do like this. And it is your... (laughter) Prabhupāda: But one, one thing is that we are not living like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. (laughter) Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was ideal sannyāsī, and He was living apart from any material attachment. But we have to do preaching work. We have to construct temple, comfortable temple. So who will pay for that? Guest (1): Then your version... Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to sometimes do that. Just like that woman, that chaste woman. She served a prostitute... Guest (1): To make them correct. Prabhupāda: No. Serve prostitute for serving her husband. That is a big story. Guest (2): Big story, yes. *Prabhupāda: Lakṣa*-hīra. *Guest (1): Lakṣa*-hīra. Yes. *Prabhupāda: You know that, Lakṣa*-hīra. Guest (1): And husband was a... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): And he requested his Lakṣa*-hīra that "I want to go one night to the..." *Prabhupāda: Yes, to the prostitute and her pay, her fee, was lakṣa*-hīra, one hundred thousand pieces of diamond. You see. Guest (1): Yes. I know that, that story. Prabhupāda: So for the satisfaction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we sometimes do that. But we collect money from them not for our sense gratification, but constructing this temple. Guest (1): For the general public and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...country and... Prabhupāda: And unless we have got temple like this, nobody would come. If I sit down here, "Bhaktivedanta Swami is sitting here," nobody will come. (laughter) Guest (1): But people, like poor people, like come to the... Prabhupāda: But Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God. He can attract any man. But I am not God. I have to attract people by some opulence. Guest (2): But Prabhupāda, in the beginning, you attracted in the park everyone. When you went to America, you were chanting and attracting people just in the park. Same place. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Now, at that time, only Brahmānanda was attracted. (laughter) Not you. Not you. Guest (2): Only because he was sincere soul. Prabhupāda: This Brahmānanda and Acyutānanda, they first danced in my chanting in the park. The photograph was published in the Times of New York. Guest (1): And I heard that your first devotee in America, Kīrtaniyā. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): Kīrtaniyā Swami. Prabhupāda: Kīrtanānanda Swami. Guest (1): Kīrtanānanda Swami. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is next. He is next. Guest (1): Oh yes, I met him. Prabhupāda: He came next. Brahmānanda came first. Kīrtanānanda: No, I came first. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No. You were present in that Thompkinson Square? Kīrtanānanda: Before that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Kīrtanānanda: Before that. Prabhupāda: Oh before that. Yes, yes. Yes, I... Guest (1): I asked him. And somebody, some devotee... *Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda you are defeated. (laughter) So kīrtana is glorious than brahma*-jñāna. (laughter) Guest (1): And some devotee introduced me with him, that "He is the first devotee of Prabhupāda in America, in foreign." Prabhupāda: Yes. He's also a priest's son, coming from very respectable, priestly order family. Guest (1): Last few days, we were enjoying a good day. Guest (2): But there are so many disciples of one guru. Are they come all in bona fide disciplic succession? *Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Well, everyone is in a bona fide disciplic succession provided he keeps that tradition, keeps that tradition. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. One must behave that "I belong to this disciplic succession. I must keep myself fit for the post." Then it is all right. If he deviates, then he deviates the disciplic succession. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says frankly that... This is disciplic succession. Āmāra ājñāya: "Just carry out My order." Then you are in disciplic succession. If you do not keep yourself in the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then simply by becoming disciple, you are not in the disciplic succession. This is disciplic succession. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said this clearly, āmāra ājñāya guru haña tāra ei: "Wherever you live, you become a spiritual master." How? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Whomever you meet, you only speak what Kṛṣṇa has instructed." Then you are disciplic succession. It doesn't matter what you are and where you are. It doesn't matter. This is disciplic succession. And if you think, "Now I am initiated. I am now liberated. I have no other business," then you are not in the disciplic succession. You must preach. That is disciplic succession. Guest (1): This is the definition of a disciple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Āmāra ājñāya guru haña tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128], yāre dekha... You have to... Anywhere, any friend, any businessman, "Are you Kṛṣṇa conscious? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That's all. What is the loss in that? "My dear friend, I request you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." Where is the difficulty? Brahmānanda: Even a child like Sarasvatī, she does. Prabhupāda: Yes? Ah, yes. Guest (1): She asks everybody. Every child, she will say: "Jump!" "Jump, Jump, Jump!" And she will... *Prabhupāda: And if he does not, she'll say: "Śyāmasundara, here is a karmī." (laughter) So they're... Our Gosāin in Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, he was smoking. "Mālatī, Mālatī see this old man is smoking." Guest (2): Take this beedie out. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. She was telling. *Prabhupāda: Just see. "He's smoking beedie." This man became little ashamed. "Yes, my girl, I'll give it up by and by." She was surprised that a man is smoking. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...dṛḍha*-vrata, vows, very rigidly. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. So if I'm unable, there is no need of starving. No. Because if you become diseased, then your bhajana will be hampered. So you can do it. Guest (1): (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Or ability, inability, that depends on the person. Guest (3): (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) [break] Adjust their cash. Guest (2): Cash is different... Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean to say, account computer. But they must tally with their daily balance. Guest (2): Well, they put in the suspense. When they find out this mistake, that somebody pointed out, then they adjust it. So many times it has happened. But this computer system is not hundred per cent efficient. Guest (1): One Indian girl, Śakuntalā, went to London and America and stay on (?) these computers. She was able to work out computer, one... Guest (2): She challenged. She challenged. Guest (2): Śakuntalā? Guest (2): Śakuntalā, yes. Prabhupāda: Some girl came to see me. She's little fatty, that girl? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, I think... Guest (2): She printed a photo in the London papers also and challenged that "I can beat any computers in the western world." [break] *Guest (1): Under one high*-court? *Prabhupāda: Under one high*-court, yes. Guest (2): Āśrama (?) also. Guest (1): Asambala. (?) Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Yes. Guest (3): (Bengali) [break] Guest (2): During the festival days..., Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (4): ...for the last three or four days, many people, specially young men, were asking for different sort of informatory books or leaflets in their own language. And also asking for how they can became members or more closely associated. Prabhupāda: This is very important. Guest (4): With more translational or a type of... Prabhupāda: So unfortunately, we haven't got any expert Bengali to do these things. Guest (4): In my own way, I am ready to prepare a sample of the English translation of the books. Prabhupāda: Welcome. It is a great service. Guest (4): But that must be very cheap. Prabhupāda: Oh, cheap. We can distribute without price. That is not the question. Guest (4): And also they were asking to be associated more in the facilities for life membership like that with... They feel it's within their reach. Prabhupāda: No life membership, life membership they're... Just like if somebody joins, he's more than life member. But if he does not join, then he becomes life member by paying the fees. Guest (4): I also... Guest (5): I want to be a member, and I wish to resign from my present service. And I wish to dedicate my whole life to... Prabhupāda: What is your present service? Guest (5): At present, I am serving in the steel plant, Hindustan Steel Industry. Prabhupāda: Oh, steel plant. Guest (5): And I want to, wish to dedicate my whole life to the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is very good proposal. Guest (5): And I am a... Prabhupāda: How far you are educated? Guest (5): . As long as I will live, I will broom and clean the temple. Prabhupāda: Very good. That's all right. You go on doing that. Guest (5): OK. And then I will submit my resignation. Prabhupāda: That is up to you. I cannot say. Guest (5): Yes. And my parents are sufficient enough. They have enough land... *Prabhupāda: Śrī*-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau. That is also great service. If you guide other people, and you do yourself, just to keep the temple very neat and clean, it will be a very, very, great service. Guest (5): Yes, yes, yes. I am ready to do that. Prabhupāda: Well, then you are welcome immediately. Guest (5): And that is my desire, all, inner desire. Prabhupāda: Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. If you show example how to keep the temple neat and clean, then these foreigners also will learn from you. [break] ...those who are earning money, they should... But we are giving them books. So our books are worth about three thousand rupees. But we are simply collecting eleven hundred. Guest (4): All that they wanted, I understood from the talk, informatory, informations I mean, in their own dialect. *Prabhupāda: Well, one thing is that at least in Bengal they do not require much information because this Caitanya Movement is their movement. It is simply a plea. Everyone know that Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to distribute the Hari*-nāma-saṅkīrtana. This is the essence, and let them help, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā, by life, by money, by words. This is the movement. Why they are anxious to get information more? That is a plea. Everyone knows what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, at least in Bengal. Bhavānanda: I tell them that when they ask. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: I say, "Why you are asking me that? You already know." *Prabhupāda: Rather, they are to give information. But this is a plea. Bhagavad*-gītā is, was not made in London. (laughter) It was spoken in India. Why they are asking? That means they have become so rascal and fool they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Their position is so low-graded now? Guest (1): They do not like to learn it. They do not like to know it. *Prabhupāda: That's it. Is Bhagavad*-gītā imported from London? Why do they ask like this? How much degraded they have become. Guest (1): And our answers must be like this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. As if you are... They are importing knowledge from Lenin, these rascals, and they do not know what is Bhagavad*-gītā. How much degraded they have become. Just see. *Guest (2): They even go as far as to say that this Bhagavad*-gītā is adulterated now, and... Guest (4): Maybe also they... Prabhupāda: Adulterated? Guest (2): Yeah, they say so many things have been added to it. Sometimes some rascals come to criticize to that extent. Prabhupāda: What is that addition? *Guest (2): Well, when you come to, when you come to ask a specific answer, they say, "If you bring Bhagavad*-gītā, we'll show it to you." *Prabhupāda: So bring Bhagavad*-gītā. What is the addition? Guest (2): This was, this was pointed out by quite a few in the train. Guest (4): No, you can ask them at that time, "Please place one book like that which is adulterated, and it is somehow or another added in it." Guest (2): But what is their source of knowledge? Guest (4): They have no, no source of... They like to Guest (2): Speculate... Guest (4): They like to convey... *Prabhupāda: They do not know what is Bhagavad*-gītā, but they can say it is added and subtracted. They're... But they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. *Brahmānanda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. There is no adulteration there. Very simple. Prabhupāda: So you, all Indians, you have to do this. This is simply a plea to avoid. In Bengal, everyone knows Caitanya Mahāprabhu was for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (4): But so far, most of them, perhaps, also wanted informations regarding, full informations regarding ISKCON. *Prabhupāda: ISKCON. That is a short*-cut of "International Society for Krishna Consciousness." Guest (4): No, that I know, myself. They wanted to know, in their own language, etc... And for that I meant... Prabhupāda: No, it is, it is... Guest (4): ...a sort of booklet in local dialect, in the Bengali. To be more propagated. Prabhupāda: So I can give you the hints. You prepare a leaflet immediately, and we publish. Guest (4): Yes, yes. I, we have already prepared. Already... Prabhupāda: Come. I shall give you more hints. Immediately come. I shall give you. Only need... [break] They should come forward. That is needed. Otherwise, everything is there. Guest (4): I was having discussions with Pāñcajanya Prabhu regarding these things. Even to have them locally printed. Bhavānanda: Anyway, we can work that out. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Yes, it's all taken care of. [break] Prabhupāda: "Waves in the ocean. Let it, let it be stopped. Then I shall start my boat." It will never come. Guest (4): Then this is not my intention. Prabhupāda: It will never come. Guest (4): It is not my intention. Prabhupāda: Start boat immediately, in whatever condition. Guest (4): Any circumstance. Prabhupāda: Any circumstance. That is required. Guest (2): We should take it very seriously. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] "First of all let us become economically fit. Then we shall consider our spiritual." This is nonsense. Guest (1): That will never come. Prabhupāda: All the big, big leaders, they wanted to keep themselves economically fit, but when death came, they had to surrender. "Yes sir, (Bengali)" Guest (4): Many leaders are economically... Prabhupāda: They do not... They're not leaders. I say they're rascals. Guest (4): They do not live here, and they must... Prabhupāda: All these leaders, I must say clearly, they're all rascals, misleaders. Not only in our country, all over the world. Therefore we have started this movement, who is real leader? (end) Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras. Passerby: Jayo! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: Are śūdras supposed to take sannyāsa also? Prabhupāda: No, why? Bhagavān: Śūdras... Prabhupāda: Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa. Only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas, they'll be allowed to take sannyāsa. Bhagavān: Kṣatriyas used to take sannyāsa too? Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas... Some of them. Not all. Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. *Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali*-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post*-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger. Bhagavān: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone's life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that "Give me second initiation, a sacred thread." And after getting it, business finished: "Now I'm liberated. Let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighās of land, and I have calculated in Māyāpura, setting aside twenty bighās for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighās of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated. How much you can...? Bhagavān: Fifteen hundred. *Prabhupāda: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he'll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varṇāśrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely. Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation? Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: What should the kṣatriyas be taught? Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kṣatriya's business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." No. They must come forward. "Yes, we are prepared to fight." That is kṣatriya. *Tamāla*-Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh. *Tamāla*-Kṛṣṇa: In our centers we are awarding brāhmaṇa initiation, second initiation... Prabhupāda: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaiṣṇava. A Vaiṣṇava and Viṣṇu... Just like Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, He's not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaiṣṇava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brāhmaṇa, one should be acting like kṣatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyāsī who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaiṣṇava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that "Because I have taken sannyāsa, therefore I cannot any more do anything." If need be, he has to act as kṣatriya. Or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. Hṛdayānanda: Oh. Prabhupāda: Doesn't matter. But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position of doing the work of a śūdra does not mean he has become śūdra. He's Vaiṣṇava. Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be..., but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly to manage things in the material world we have to... Guṇa, karma. Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed, according to quality. Ātreya-ṛṣi: So in our Movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly. Prabhupāda: That is leadership. That is leadership. The... Which man is fitted for which work. Ātreya-ṛṣi: Yes. Utilization of all resources... Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya-ṛṣi: ...including devotees and funds and everything. *Prabhupāda: Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? Idle brain is devil's workshop. And the devil is kāminī-kāñcana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared-Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja*-for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared. Prabhupāda: Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred rupees per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that "You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly?" What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management. [break] ...especially is that the religion means to make a class of men, simply idle... What is? Opiate...? What is called? Devotees: Opiate of the people. Prabhupāda: Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, "They escape responsibility of worldly life and they're indulging in some religious..." That is the tendency. All... Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, "These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis... That... Now in Bombay, they have refused. Because they are under the impression that "They, these Europeans have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use?" They have taken some plea and rejected our... [break] ...is there. As we are making counterpropaganda against māyā, the māyā is also very strong. She will also make propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become very sincere devotee, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14], then it will not be possible to conquer over māyā. You'll be succumbed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...taranti te, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. In India the, the brāhmaṇa class, they say, "Oh, I am born in brāhmaṇa family. Why shall I do this work?" You see. Therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still, they accept any kind of work. It doesn't matter. And here, in India, if he happens to be a brāhmaṇa, he'll not take any kind of work. Means... Just like plowing. He'll not agree. Therefore so much land. The kṣatriya is thinking, "I am kṣatriya." The brāhmaṇa is thinking, "I am brāhmaṇa." And the land is lying fallow. There is no production. He will go to the office and fight with the pen as a kṣatriya. And instead of studying *Vedas*, he'll study the rules and regulations given by the office. But he'll not come to plow. Therefore this scarcity of food. He'll go to a mill to work as ordinary laborer. (Hindi) He'll not come. So much land we see lying unutilized. And they're crying for grain. Why? The same example. I was writing that in New York City, the whole city is full of dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaners, and you go to the Central Park, you'll find so many hippies are lying down idle. Ātreya-ṛṣi: Unemployment. Prabhupāda: Not employment. They'll not work. That means mismanagement. Why they should remain down? Why they should remain without any employment? But the government is not doing that. Devotee: They do not feel inspired. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: They do not feel inspired. No one has desire. Prabhupāda: That, that means mismanagement. You had no desire to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you have been taken to it by some, some way or other. That is management. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That is management. Hṛdayānanda: You are expert manager. *Prabhupāda: A child does not want to go to school, but it is the duty of the parent to send him to the school by some way or other. So that is government's duty, that a man should be employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment. That is very dangerous position of the society. Now this unemployment question is very strong all over the world. They'll plan that "This government is not good. That system is not good. He's not good." And he'll do nothing. He'll personally do nothing. Just like the hippies, they criticize everyone, but he'll not do anything. It is all... These descriptions are there in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. We are going too far? Employed... [break] ...from the government to utilize this land. You see? So much. Everywhere you'll find. Everywhere you'll find. Who was with me in London? Devotee: Yeah. Last time, last summer? Prabhupāda: Letchmore Heath. Devotee: Yeah? Prabhupāda: So much, lying vacant. They have taken it into consideration that "What is the use of working in the land? Better kill one animal and eat easily." Because he doesn't care for sinful activities. The... "If I can eat the cow, why shall I take so much trouble to till the...?" This is going on, all over the world. Indian man: Employment means now just to cut the money and not to work. No work. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] The same... Employment, even for the woman, the carakā. You see? Gandhi also studied this. There must be... Woman should be engaged for weaving. What is called? Devotee: Spinning. Prabhupāda: Spinning, yes. Everyone should be engaged. That is management. So all GBC members must see that in every temple, everyone is engaged. Brahmānanda: That is the meaning of leadership. Prabhupāda: That is the meaning of leadership. Hṛdayānanda: And that all the devotees are protected. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: And all the devotees are protected. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone should be engaged. And if everyone is engaged, he'll never fall sick. Yes. [break] ...the farmers, their son, they're giving up the farming business. Haṁsadūta: Going to the city. Prabhupāda: Going to the city. In your country also? Ātreya-ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Or you have nothing to do with farming. Ātreya-ṛṣi: Excuse me? Prabhupāda: Your country, there is nothing to do with farming. You have got petrol. Ātreya-ṛṣi: No. No there is a lot of good land, but they're not developing it. Devotee: Just selling petrol. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, if they can get money underground, "Why shall I work?" (end) Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...that business in your country. What is that? Topless, bottomless? Devotee: Yeah. Prabhupāda: No? They want. There is regular business. In India also. In the hotels there are regular business to pick up college girls and enjoyed by the guests. So many things are going on on this basis of sinful activity. All over the world. So they become polluted, all people..., population, then how they can expect good government? Some of them will take the charge of the government, and he's polluted. (pause) Indigestion. You know that? Indigestion. Devotee: Ha. Prabhupāda: You have not digested your food. [break] Any carpenter working in... [break] The government was pleased to reply that they're maintaining themselves by selling literature. Similarly, if it comes to the notice of the government that they're maintaining ourselves by production of food, they'll like very much. [break] In your temple. Devotee: Feeding. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) [break] Bhagavān: ...the society would go to the gurukula, and there it would be decided what their work would be? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all there should be an instructor on the spiritual life, then according to his position... Our spiritual life is meant, we should always remember... But for management we have to make divisions. That is... Devotee: Actually the whole society could be Vaiṣṇava. *Prabhupāda: Ah. They're Vaiṣṇava. But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit. That should be the aim, how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this hand, leg, brain, belly must be divided. Just like there's slight difference, those who are directly engaged in temple worship and those who are going to sell books. Apparently there's difference, but basically there is no difference. Like that. If one can sell books nicely, why he should be, I mean to say, engaged in the temple worship? He can do better work in that way. But there is no difference between selling the books and temple worship. Or washing the dish. There's no difference, because it is all transcendental. Just like aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya*-vṛttimanti. Kṛṣṇa's hands and legs, there's no difference. You've read this verse? Haṁsadūta: Yes, aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya... Prabhupāda: But still leg and hand. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Madhudviṣa: Kṛṣṇa says, Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam [Bg 18.68]. Prabhupāda: Hm. *Madhudviṣa: He says, "Those who repeat this message of Bhagavad*-gītā, are most dear friends to me, and there's no one more dear to Me than he..." Prabhupāda: Hm. Madhudviṣa: Wouldn't that indicate that a preacher is higher than a worker? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is preaching, this is preaching. You help. Suppose you are preaching, and if I help you... Just like I'm preaching, you're helping. You are also preaching. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Also this building is preaching. Prabhupāda: This is also preaching. So it is not that preaching means simply talking. Preaching means everything. The construction is also preaching. The designing is also preaching. Everything is... Otherwise what is the use of spending so much money if it is not preaching? Devotee: Jaya. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. [break] Everything that has to do with propagating Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: ...in any way. *Prabhupāda: That is preaching. Just like... Nava*-vidhā-bhakti. Haṁsadūta: That's important... Prabhupāda: That is important. Otherwise every work is preaching. See that everyone is engaged. There was an advertisement by the railroad department, their monogram was a wheel of carriage and they have written that every employee of the railroad should see that the wheel is running on. Wheel is running on. Now suppose in the office the clerks are working, so how they will see the wheel is running on? Because in the office of railway there is some complaint, there is some claim, there so many things... But that is depending on their wheel. So they should expedite their business so that wheel may not stop, it must go on. It is very nice instruction. So the wheel is going on. Suppose some station has asked for ten wagons immediately, and that requires the sanction of the divisional superintendent. That is his office. So the clerk should help the progress that immediately the sanction is done. Then the wheel will go on. Do you understand? So everyone can help that the railway wheel is going on. Although apparently it will appear that "What this clerk has to do with the wheel going on?" Is it clear? Bhagavān: So there's so much to do in Kṛṣṇa's service, everyone can be engaged in some... Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone should know... Suppose one is engaged in cooking prasādam. You should see that nice prasādam is served to the worker, quickly, so they can take prasādam, be healthy and go on preaching. So he is helping preaching by cooking. Just like you are working and the brain is also working, "Go this side, go that side, the car is coming." Brain says, the... "Leg, come this side." Everyone is working. The leg is working, the brain is working, the hand is working, the tongue is working. But the business of the tongue and business of the leg is different. The aim being, the central point being Kṛṣṇa, to help, to serve Him, then everything is work, absolute. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot understand it. They think that "Kṛṣṇa is working like ordinary man. How He can become God? It is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is also māyā." Therefore we called them Māyāvādī. Bhagavān: A leader must be very expert so that people would be happy in their engagement. Prabhupāda: Everyone should be expert. The leaders must be expert and the worker must be expert so that they may follow the instruction of the leader. If the leader says something and the workers, "Hm, I shall consider it, later on," then how the leader will execute his leadership? Both of them should be cooperating and know that "We are all working for Kṛṣṇa." Somebody was coming back and going... Coming this side or... Our men? No. Devotees: No. [break] Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...woman. Prabhupāda: Ah? Ātreya Ṛṣi: There are so many... So few compared to other religions, but we make so big propaganda always... Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because... Prabhupāda: It is admitted, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement it is admitted. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are not lazy like Māyāvādīs. *Prabhupāda: Yeah. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "I have become now Brahman*-stop work. Eat and make your belly..." You see how Māyāvādī sannyāsī... Ah. (Prabhupāda gestures; devotees laugh) They think that "Now I have become Brahman, I have nothing to do. (Prabhupāda laughs) I have become Nārāyaṇa." "If you've got nothing to do, then why you are eating?" And for one cāpāṭi you'll find there are many Māyāvādīs. They're busy simply collecting cāpāṭis. (devotees laugh) So what is time of your starting? Pañcadraviḍa: We're starting at nine. Prabhupāda: Nine. Pañcadraviḍa: Prasādam is being served at eight. Prabhupāda: Oh. This Christian land is not available? Devotee: There's no reliable information on it. Prabhupāda: You can get from that gentleman... (end) Morning Walk "Varëäçrama College" -- March 14, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college. Satsvarūpa: For the public in general? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training. Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group? Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches. Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula? Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula? Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training. Hṛdayānanda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varṇa? Such as say... Prabhupāda: No. Hṛdayānanda: Say, for example, someone was a, a kṣatriya by inclination, or a...? *Prabhupāda: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so*-called leaders. Therefore varṇāśrama college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Hṛdayānanda: But Prabhupāda, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like Bhagavad*-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh? Hṛdayānanda: How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would... Hṛdayānanda: Boarding school. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill. Hṛdayānanda: Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical. Nitāi: Not business also? Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: The vaiśyas? Prabhupāda: Business, this rascal business, no. Nitāi: No? Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra. Hṛdayānanda: What kind of training is there for a śūdra? Prabhupāda: Śūdra is general assistant. Hṛdayānanda: Oh, just... *Prabhupāda: Order*-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all. Satsvarūpa: What would he learn at the school, though? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance*-he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit. Yaduvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaduvara: What class does the arts and crafts come under? Prabhupāda: Eh? Śūdra. Yaduvara: Śūdra. Prabhupāda: They are śūdras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the śūdras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts. Yaduvara: Hm. Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore the whole people, population, is śūdra. Hṛdayānanda: It is a fact. *Prabhupāda: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so*-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are śūdras. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: In our society [break] ...accepted [break] ...as a philosopher. Prabhupāda: Artist? Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, the artist. Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... [break] Prabhupāda: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: That, in your western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. [break] ...human being. You see. What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... [break] We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. *Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jñānī ca bharatarṣabha [Bg. 7.16]. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye śṛgāla rājā.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇḍālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact. Hṛdayānanda: It's true. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand, hand animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them, mlecchas and yavanas. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the mlecchas and yavanas, by training, you are becoming more than a brāhmaṇa. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat*-eating," they become angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. Prakopayati na śamayati. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānām (?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varṇāśrama school required. Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, in this varṇāśrama college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...? Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. History, we simply read *Mahābhārata*, history of the great men, Pāṇḍavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Hṛdayānanda: *Mahābhārata*. Prabhupāda: Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way? Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so... Prabhupāda: Hm? History must be for great person. This is history. Hṛdayānanda: So in our varṇāśrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow... Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also. Hṛdayānanda: What he kills. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat*-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇḍālas. Hṛdayānanda: But never the cow. *Prabhupāda: No. Cow... The śūdras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kālī, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caṇḍī*-pūjā, Durgā-pūjā. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life-marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men? Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home. Satsvarūpa: So they don't attend varṇāśrama college. Prabhupāda: No, no. Varṇāśrama college especially meant for the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-śūdra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class. Hṛdayānanda: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily. Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy. Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why? Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia... Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on. Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment. *Hṛdayānanda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad*-gītā and... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Hṛdayānanda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varṇāśrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above varṇāśrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varṇa and āśrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yakṣa*-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to varṇāśrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā sṛṣṭam. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with varṇāśrama. Similarly, if we act as varṇāśrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varṇāśrama. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, can you say something about the training for a brāhmaṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are satyaṁ śamaḥ damaḥ. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... śamo damaḥ,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyaṁ śamo damaḥ śaucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is brāhmaṇa. Hṛdayānanda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in? Prabhupāda: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers. Hṛdayānanda: Oh, they'll be teachers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. General teacher class will be the brāhmaṇas. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a brāhmaṇa. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brāhmaṇa should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is brāhmaṇa. Hṛdayānanda: So brāhmaṇa can teach how to fight? Prabhupāda: Yes. Brāhmaṇa means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything. Satsvarūpa: This is all very new. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult? Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though. Prabhupāda: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor. Satsvarūpa: Then it becomes easy. Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher. Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama, say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to... Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions. Viṣṇujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brāhmaṇas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows. Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing. Hṛdayānanda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything. Prabhupāda: No, no. Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the, at the present time in the... Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are śūdras or less than śūdras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given. Viṣṇujana: Preliminary. Prabhupāda: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work? Viṣṇujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method*-varṇāśrama. *Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general*-you've made some exceptions-but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a... Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory. Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing. Yaduvara: How would the kṣatriyas kill the animals? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow? Prabhupāda: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kṣatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivrāja, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men. Viṣṇujana: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of... Prabhupāda: No. We are not going to... But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it. Viṣṇujana: Oh, I see. Prabhupāda: Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and builds a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them prasādam. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is sannyāsī. Viṣṇujana: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not... Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇujana: ...that we live there and... Prabhupāda: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat." Viṣṇujana: Then there'll be wide criticism. Prabhupāda: That is... This is not good. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: You should remain always sannyāsī within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varṇāśrama. We are not varṇāśrama; we are above varṇāśrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position? Prabhupāda: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brāhmaṇas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money. Hṛdayānanda: The vaiśya students will produce the food. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go. Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away. *Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown*-up students. College means for grown-up students. Hṛdayānanda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years. Hṛdayānanda: They can start at ten to twelve? Prabhupāda: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varṇāśrama college. Viṣṇujana: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school. Prabhupāda: Yes. Organize that. Viṣṇujana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall go. Viṣṇujana: This Mahārāja is also going to New Vrindaban. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Viṣṇujana: He can... Prabhupāda: Do that. Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, you, and combined together, do that. Viṣṇujana: Yes. Prabhupāda: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work. Viṣṇujana: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...? Prabhupāda: Eh? Viṣṇujana: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇujana: That's most auspicious. Prabhupāda: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain. Viṣṇujana: For example, in my program... Prabhupāda: Budhaḥ. Budhaḥ. Eh? Yes? Viṣṇujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacārīs in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books? Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa [break] ...in separate department. *Passer*-by: Rādhe, Rādhe! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe." Viṣṇujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were... Prabhupāda: This is India. Viṣṇujana: ...worshiping... Prabhupāda: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries. Hṛdayānanda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added. Prabhupāda: Yes. Parivrājakācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Parivrājakācārya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...? Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position. Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul. Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or... *Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute*-for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that. Hṛdayānanda: So, Prabhupāda, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...? Prabhupāda: They should be engaged. Hṛdayānanda: Should they be trained in a particular...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture. Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra. Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes... Prabhupāda: : Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy. Hṛdayānanda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college. Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come. Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so*-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra. Hṛdayānanda: So they should be trained to rise early and so on. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina? Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghāma, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghāma and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghāma means perspiration. [break] ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. [break] ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No. Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately: "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see. Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animals. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. [break] ...example that they have started that United Nations. What they have done actually? United Nations. Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Nothing. Prabhupāda: Have they done anything progressive? Hṛdayānanda: No. Prabhupāda: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nations." All nations, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? (laughter) So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace. They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong? Hṛdayānanda: Right. Prabhupāda: Yes. So study this institution. Viṣṇujana: Thirty years now. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, humbug program, and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so*-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁhadeva. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. [break] ...business has become like Prahlāda Mahārāja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. [break] ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...it will be good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are teaching a śūdra how to work like this, you have become a śūdra. You are not śūdras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a śūdra how to work like a śūdra. [break] ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training kṣatriyas, they're training... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning... Viṣṇujana: ...vaiśyas... Prabhupāda: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula. Viṣṇujana: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired. Parivrājakācārya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already... Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there. Viṣṇujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members. Prabhupāda: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. Pañcāyeta. It is called pañcāyeta system. [break] You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings. Viṣṇujana: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Viṣṇujana: ...and turn it into a society. Hṛdayānanda: Ah, that's wonderful. Satsvarūpa: Many times our devotees get cheated in business dealings by inexperience. So should they learn from... Prabhupāda: How to cheat others. (laughter) Satsvarūpa: No, not how to cheat, but from experienced devotees how to not be cheated? Prabhupāda: Why should you go to a person who cheats you? (end) Morning Walk -- March 15, 1974, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...you should call learned. Arcye viṣṇau śilā*-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. You take it... Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...this quotation from *Padma Purāṇa*, and distribute it by transcribing to all our devotees. Nitāi: That's the verse that says that one is a resident of hell... Prabhupāda: Yes. Nārakī. Nitāi: ...if he considers the Deity... Prabhupāda: Nārakī. Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Arcye viṣṇau... [break] ...when it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." (laughter) We want that. Marching with military band, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You maintain this idea. Is it not good? Hṛdayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: When there will be military march of Kṛṣṇa conscious soldiers. Anyone who does not believe in Kṛṣṇa, "Blam!" (laughter) Yes. The same process as the Mohammedans did, with sword and Koran, we'll have to do that. "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa or not?" "No, sir." "Blam!" Finished. (laughter, Prabhupāda laughs) What do you think, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja? Is that all right? Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. We can kill many communists like that. (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that? Devotees: Hammer and sickle. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Indian: Yeah, good. Prabhupāda: But no hammer. Only this... What is called? Devotees: Sickle. *Prabhupāda: No hammer. That will be our emblem. Only sickle. Not hammer. The hammer has hammered the whole human civilization. So just make a counter*-emblem. The communists will appreciate. Devotee: Sickle and tilaka. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: A sickle, and then a tilaka. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good idea. Guptajī? Come here. (Hindi) Gupta: (Hindi for few sentences) *Prabhupāda: Rascal civilization, rascal government. And people are transferred into rascals. (Hindi) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Without anna, how they can live? There is no arrangement for anna. They're simply passing resolution, legislative laws. And no anna. Just see what kind of wretched government it is. Everywhere. There is no anna. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. The first duty of government is to see that everyone is happy, without any anxiety. These preliminary necessities of life, āhāra*-nidra-bhaya-maithunam, there must be sufficient arrangement for these preliminary necessities of life. One must eat sumptuously. Not over-eating, indulgence. No. But he must have sufficient food to keep up the health. Similarly, he must have place to sleep. We, we are prepared to offer everything. And be Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our mission. Not by eating and sleeping, become rogues and thieves and rascals. That we will not allow. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Why unemployment? There is no scarcity (of) water. Just have a big well. Electricity pump water. Oh, immediately, it will be all green. Immediately. (Hindi for a while) Jayo! Hare Kṛṣṇa! [break] ...all round, for the benefit of the human society. You'll be honored everywhere. Everywhere, any part of the world. And automatically these bogus avatāra, incarnations, God, and yogis and swamis will be all doomed. You see? These rascal society, avatāra, "Bhagavān," incarnations, yogis, these rascals will be doomed. Gupta: These (indistinct) ought to be finished. They cannot remain. Prabhupāda: No! (Hindi) ...that glowworm. Glowworm (Hindi) beautiful (Hindi) darkness hai. (Hindi) So long people were in darkness, they were beautiful. Now there is sunshine. Gupta: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda is the sun. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ...the anxiety of Prahlāda Mahārāja, "How these rascals, who have made a plan for happiness of a few men, gorgeous plan." And they're... For happiness of the government servant. That's all. You know in Delhi there is Planning Commission? What is that plan? That people may starve, and Indira Gandhi and company may flourish. That's all. Gupta: I think, Mahārāja, they are coming to the office at twelve and going back at one, doing nothing, and... Prabhupāda: But what they have got to do? Gupta: They are not doing... *Prabhupāda: Just like I have seen in London the Parliament. When they had some so*-called empire... Now the Parliament is useless, useless. The Parliament members and the Lords, House of Lords, House of Commons, they are now useless. They have got some old books only. In Parliament. I have seen. Some old books. Old books means all the speeches are recorded in books. And who is going to read them? Almiras, so many... I have seen in Parliament. Hundreds and thousands of speeches recorded and bound up very nicely. Who is going to read them? Simply waste of time. Gupta: They are increasing the load like this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gupta: Donkey's load. Go on increasing, increasing. Prabhupāda: Therefore this example is given: ass. For nothing, not for himself. He'll be given a little grass. The grass is available here. But still, he's engaged. Employment. Ass will reap, eat little grass. Grass is available everywhere. But still, he'll work for others, loading, overloading. This is ass. He has no sense, "So why I have taken so much overload? I can get grass anywhere. Let me remain free." But he has no such sense. Neither he will be allowed. (laughs) This is ass. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...there are many bābājīs. They are collecting cāpāṭis and smoking bidi, and have one or two women. That's all. It is going on. So they should be drawn: "Come on! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take the plough." Not that you become Rūpa Gosvāmī simply by smoking. They are thinking they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī lived like that. So they think by changing the cloth, loincloth, they have become Rūpa Gosvāmī. And whatever nonsense they like, they can do. [break] ...taken and all these bābājīs should be employed, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and draw plough." Then it will be nice. Jayādvaita: In America too, the... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: In America too, the big intellectuals and professors, they can also be... We can have ploughs for them. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're wasting time. Better produce some food. At least, your food. You are living at the cost of others. What is the value of your philosophy? That... To... In the Bhagavad*-gītā: etaj jñānam, tad ajñānaṁ yad anyathā. To search out the Absolute Truth, that is jñāna, knowledge, philosophy. Anything else, that is ajñānam. [break] ...I think it is so that if you cannot use your plot of land, then it will go to the government. Is it not? Gupta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So similarly, if the government cannot utilize, it comes to us. We shall work. Is it not good? Gupta: Very good. Prabhupāda: There must be some law like that. The government has taken from the public because it is not being worked out. Now we shall work. Give us this land. (Hindi) "You have taken from the public. Why should you not give us?" So that there will be no question, even government does not, we shall go and occupy, occupy, and go on tilling. What the government will...? Public will support us. Gupta: Again it is being distributed to their relations, those who are in the power, and then they do not work again. Prabhupāda: Again Gupta: Then it remains... *Prabhupāda: Then whatever field is not being worked, we occupy them, and begin to work. And invite all the unemployed, "Come and join us. We shall give you food, shelter, everything." [break] ...how Kṛṣṇa is setting example. Kṛṣṇa is saying that "I have already arranged the result of this fighting. Everyone will be killed." Nimitta*-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin. But still, He is inducing Arjuna to work. Not that He's already (indistinct), "I am your friend, Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be done." "It will be done, but you have to work." Gupta: Maybe a friend or not. Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. Not that "Because I am friend, I will do, and you will sleep and get dysentery." No. You have to work. Everything is already arranged, but you must work. That is wanted. Otherwise, why Arjuna was induced to fight. Kṛṣṇa has already arranged. And Arjuna also: "Yes." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. "Whatever you say..." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...politician, Balavanta? He's not here. So let him preach that "We shall, if you take our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there will be no unemployment." He can at least give this manifesto to the..., "There will be no more unemployment." People will be very nice, very glad to hear. Now this machine, this machine nonsense means unemployment. One machine will work for hundred men. So hundred men becomes unemployed, and one technician, he gets all the salaries. To work on the computer, com... Devotee: Computer, yes. Prabhupāda: Machine. And he's very expert. He'll take three thousand dollars. And others will be unemployed. This is going on. And they are thinking: "Advancement of civilization." Advancement of civilization means "Exploit others and you become happy." This is advancement of civilization. "Others may die for such, out of starvation, and one man takes all the money and spends it for wine and women and motor car." That's all. This is advancement of civilization. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is Vedic civilization. "Let everyone be happy." That is Vedic civilization. And the demonic civilization, they're: "Let everyone suffer; *I become happy. That's all." And Vaiṣṇava is thinking, "For my salvation it is already guaranteed." But he is thinking, "How these poor people will be saved?" Śoce tato vimukha*-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. Prahlāda Mahārāja. This is Vaiṣṇava's position. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. For himself, he has no unhappiness. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava shall work hard, undergo all tribulation, for others. He has no problem. A Vaiṣṇava has no problem. Because he has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, he has no problem. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. Kṛṣṇa also gives guarantee, "Anyone who has taken shelter of My..., he is saved. I will give him protection." Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi sarva... Everything is there. For Vaiṣṇava there is no suffering, personally. But he is very much anxious: "How these rascals will be happy?" That is his business. "These rascals are misled. They are going astray, unhappy. So how they should be happy?" So that is Vaiṣṇava's business. So the Vaiṣṇava, therefore, will have no politics. Politics means planning for one's own happiness. That is politics. So in our society there should be no diplomacy, no politics. Everyone should be eager how to do good to others. That is Vaiṣṇava. If he's planning something, that "I shall be leader," "I shall be doing something," that is not Vaiṣṇavism. That politics is not good. Devotee: It seems that people are so attached to sense gratification, if we tell them we want to stop all these facilities for drinking, cinema, women, like that, they become angry. Prabhupāda: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Mūrkha, a rascal, if you give him good instruction... But give him practical. "Come here. Sit down. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And help me by doing this." In this way you have to... Just like a child. Child does not want to go to school, but some, by... Find out some means so that he'll be induced. That is intelligence. He'll be angry, naturally. He's a rascal. He'll be angry. That is not unnatural. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Just like a snake. You feed the snake with milk. It will increase the poison. That's all. Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract. (pause) Local people: (calling out in distance) Harilāljī! Harilāljī! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. At least they are remembering Harilāljī by seeing us. So much benefit was in that. Eh? Gupta: When we pass, people say "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma." Prabhupāda: This is the test of Vaiṣṇava. If one is actually Vaiṣṇava, then by seeing him one will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This has been created all over the world. Yes. Wherever we go, they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even at midnight in Athens. Yes. That we have experienced. This is the definition given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Jayādvaita: Prabhupāda, if Kṛṣṇa had already done all the work at Kurukṣetra, so why was He so eager to have Arjuna work? Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayādvaita: Because He'd already done the work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: Why did He want Arjuna to work? Prabhupāda: Just to show example, that "Don't sit idly, rascal. Work." Kṛṣṇa has already done, but you must work. This is the example. Jayādvaita: People will argue that "Why should we work? If we can make an arrangement for being idle..." Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: People argue that "If we can make an arrangement to be idle, then it's nice. We've worked so hard. Now we can be idle. That's nice." Prabhupāda: Then, that, if you become idle, you'll be diseased. You'll have dysentery. That's all. That will not help you. You'll have to suffer. That, that, that stage has already come. Because so many rascals are idle, now there is so many things want. So you'll suffer. If you don't work, then you'll suffer. (end) Morning Walk -- March 16, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...by enjoying this morning fresh air. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And if you take bath in the Yamunā, you will get double energy. These are nature's gifts. And then we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. To live a spiritual life (is) very easy. [break] ...take photo. Devotee: Oh, I can do that. Prabhupāda: One side. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if somebody can manufacture by seeing the photograph in Jaipur. That's all right. Otherwise we shall test (?). [break] ...marble statues, by seeing the morning. [break] ...actual measurement. Gurudāsa: Oh. [break] Prabhupāda: ...our gṛhastha householders, how they are rising early, taking bath in Yamunā, coming to the temple. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is Vedic culture. [break] ...of eating. Western culture means: early in the morning tea. First of all tea, and, what is called? Devotee: Coffee. Prabhupāda: Coffee, tea, and so many other things. Devotee: Oh, toast. Toast. *Prabhupāda: Toast. And they will, the (indistinct) will be stopped. As soon as the belly is loaded... But they are accustomed. After eating they are (indistinct) not easily. [break] ...for sevait say (?) is for the Kanpur wala. [break] ...then there is no question of fighting, otherwise we shall take criminal and civil (indistinct*-break) ...seven hundred. Gurudāsa: Seven hundred. [break] Devotee: ...renovate these rooms, or just in general? Prabhupāda: Huh? General. Devotee: General. Prabhupāda: Yes. That veranda, that, whatever he likes we shall, we will spend. We'll pay the bills (indistinct). Devotee: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...to give us the temple portion free, and purchase the land for balance. [break] ...negotiate, but we have no sufficient men to manage. [break] ...unless you can utilize. Gurudāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct) fifty lakhs, twenty*-five, that is beyond us. We can spare up to two lakhs, that's all. [break] ... be able to manage. [break] ...people. Gurudāsa: Yes. The Britishers. *Prabhupāda: Britishers, they train. Just like in India, they trained. They were on the head of the administration. The Viceroy, the governor, the secretaries, the military commander, they are all Englishmen. All other, Indians. Therefore Gandhi started non*-cooperation movement. That these people are ruling over us by our cooperation. Gurudāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So non*-cooperate with them, they will fail. And that was successful. He started non-cooperation movement, that "Don't cooperate with these Britishers," and when they saw there is now full non-cooperation, they left voluntarily. It is not possible to bring so many administrators, military strength, men, men too. Actually the British empire was expanded through the help of Indians. Gurudāsa: Yes, they did all the work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Actually if the British were more intelligent they could have continued. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Gurudāsa: Just like that mutiny. The grease was used in the guns, and the brāhmaṇas mutinied. Prabhupāda: That is propaganda. Now, this is urine? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see nonsense. Gurudāsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who has passed this thing? [break] ...then other qualities. Gurudāsa: Truthfulness. Prabhupāda: Truthfulness and cleanliness. Satyaṁ śaucam. Gurudāsa: Satyaṁ śaucam. *Prabhupāda: Samaḥ damaḥ titikṣavaḥ ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. You do not read Bhagavad*-gītā, you are publishing for selling. It will be read by others. We are simply to make money? These are in the Bhagavad-gītā. Don't you read it? Devotee: Yes I read it. The qualities of a brāhmaṇa is given, along with the qualities of all the other varṇas. Prabhupāda: We have..., taking sacred thread has qualities less than śūdra. Camaras, cobblers. Camara means expert in skin. I am white, I am black, I am this, I am that. That is camara. Expert in skin. [break] People are very receptive? Devotee: Yes, especially Gujarati and Marwari communities. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: The south Indians, they are not so receptive. [break] Prabhupāda: ...men, so everyone should be very alert in their behavior. Rising early in the morning, taking bath, be prepared for maṅgala āratik immediately. Then class. Everything in regulated way. [break] ...and still everyone comes to the point, "I know everything." This point. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: On the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā, then nobody can supercede. [break] ...he turns back all our money invested, (indistinct) people. [break] ...if he's prepared to pay double the price, so why not pay the full price, fourteen lakhs? We have paid two lakhs, let him pay twelve lakhs and he'll immediately transfer, and we'll take double price from him, so that... [break] ...if he's so eager. These, these are practical. If he's prepared to pay double, why not pay us? (break-switches to room conversation) Sun is the same. The power observation, this is a morning sun, this is noon sun. The sun is the same. We sometimes say that because this noon sun, it is so strong. So sun is always powerful. It is our appreciation, relative appreciation, that we consider in the morning it is less scorching and in the noon it is very scorching. Kṛṣṇa is always Kṛṣṇa. ...tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ. Nija-rūpa kalā taya. (Hindi conversation) Room Conversation -- March 16, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...come with me? Guest: Yes. when I came with you, I came back once again, and this is the second time. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: That time I stayed four months, and this time I've just arrived again. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is your program now? Guest: Uh, well I came to see Nim Karoli. I didn't know you were in town and I was down the street and I saw Guru dāsa, so I said, I went over and said hello to him. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: And he, he and Yamunā insisted that I come visit you. Prabhupāda: Nim Karoli, how do you know him? Guest: Well, you've heard of Richard Alpert? Er, oh, a man called Baba Rāma Dāsa? You know Richard Alpert? Prabhupāda: Oh, Balarāma, he was here. Devotee: Baba Rāma, Baba Rāma. Devotee (2): Baba Rāma Dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh, Baba Rāma. (Hindi) [break] Guest: ...that's the last time I saw you. From time to time I see Baba Rāma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we have got one hundred and two branches. Mexico City, we have got. I have been there. I forget the name of the street. Very nice center. Indian standard. Mexico City building almost Indian standard. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And people are also almost Indian standard. Guest: Well, Mexico and India are exactly same, opposite side of the world, like this. *Prabhupāda: Anti*-point. *Guest: Yes. And, uh, some, there's a few similarities in the religion, I think, because they have a fearful goddess like Mahā*-kālī. *Prabhupāda: Worship Mahā*-kālī? *Guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes, very fearful, you know. She's, er, her head comes from two serpent's heads. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: You know, two serpent's heads are together like this, making her face, and then she wears a skirt of skulls. Prabhupāda: Oh, skulls. Guest: Skulls. *Prabhupāda: They're practicing Mahā*-kālī. *Guest: Like Mahā*-kālī, yes. Prabhupāda: That is worship. That is (indistinct)? Guest: Well before, when the Spanish were there. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: Name is Papinque(?). Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: And she's supposed to represent the earth. Prabhupāda: Your parents live in Mexico City? Guest: No, not Mexico City. (indistinct) I have relatives in Mexico City. When I was there this summer I went to visit one other Hindu establishment that comes down from Śaṅkarācārya. Prabhupāda: Where? Guest: On the street (indistinct). But I didn't know you had a branch in Mexico City at the time. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: They're also vegetarians now. Prabhupāda: Acchā? In Mexico they are vegetarians? Guest: Well, no. Most Mexicans are not vegetarians, but this, these people who belong to Śaṅkarācārya sampradāya are vegetarians. Guru Dāsa: Where's the name "Maya" civilization come from? Guest: I think it's probably just a coincidence that the name is Maya, more than, you know.... [break] Guest: How's your health? Prabhupāda: Health is not very good. I am not (indistinct). Devotee: It's almost time to go to your.... [break] Prabhupāda: This we will take more, it will not harm, but the other, if you take little less.... [break] Mexico? No. Guest: There is good butter. Prabhupāda: Butter? Guest: Very good butter. I suppose you could make good ghee out of it. The butter there is, you know, like uh... Prabhupāda: Are there any flowers there? There are so many flowerstall. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: And there in Mexico, in Mexico where I saw "Mahātmā Gandhi (Road?)." Devotee: That was in Mexico. Guru dāsa: In Mexico City they have many streets named after famous men. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guru Dāsa: Yeah. Mexico City. Mahātmā Gandhi. Prabhupāda: There in the city. I saw Mahātmā Gandhi Street. Guest: Hm, yeah. I can't remember. Maybe. There's.... [break]. Prabhupāda: Just by the side of a flower stand. I was surprised, Mahātmā Gandhi Road. [break] Guest: From that illness you had when you came to India... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: When you were recovering from your stroke? Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: I think you looked in better health then. Prabhupāda: When I was... Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Since then I have no stroke. Guest: You still have massages every day? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have massages. One day him, one day Acyutānanda. [break] What philosophy you are following? Guest: Pardon? Prabhupāda: Which philosophy you are following? Guest: Uh, Buddha philosophy, and uh, Vedānta and uh, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. I have a Tibetan teacher now, (indistinct). Prabhupāda: He also teaches Kṛṣṇa? Guest: Uh, he teaches uh... Prabhupāda: Buddha. Guest: Buddha. Buddhism. Prabhupāda: So how you will adjust Kṛṣṇa philosophy and Buddha philosophy? Guest: Well it's just a different uh, approach. But I don't think there's any fundamental difference. I mean if you, if you, uh, have the ultimate consciousness in one, you have it in the other, too. Prabhupāda: So there is difference. Buddha philosophy does not accept God. Guest: Yeah. It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: It's a atheistic approach. Prabhupāda: No soul, no God. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is God, soul, and Vedānta philosophy, that is also God. So Buddha philosophy different from Vedānta philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy. Guest: The approach is different, yes. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: The approach is different. Prabhupāda: Approach? The end is different. Now how you'll adjust Buddha philosophy and Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Guest: There's a few, uh, paradoxes I..., but uh, anyway, I asked the same key question to uh, to my, uh, Tibetan teacher, and, uh, because he was, he was putting down everybody else and calling everybody else except his philosophy heretics. So then I asked him, I said, "Now this experience that all those different people say that they have achieved, you know," I says, uh, "is it substantially different or not?" Prabhupāda: Achieved? *Guest: Achieved. You know*-attained. Prabhupāda: Achieved. Oh. Guest: And uh, then he started to say, "Well if they believe in an external God,'' or something like that, "then it is heretical.'' I says, "But nevertheless,'' I says, "Uh, like in the writings of, say, Meister Eckhart or the different mystics, they all seem to describe their experience in pretty much similar terms." So I said, I asked him, "Does this mean that the experience is different or not?'' So then he argued, he finally says.... Well, he didn't say it directly, but what he said is that if, if you want to get the experience of touching something to find out what hot is, he says you may have different motive. Like some people may do it because it's pretty, some out of curiosity or different motive. In other words, he admitted that the experience finally was the same, even though the approach was different. Prabhupāda: If the approach is different, suppose in the approach is to fire, the approach may be different, but heat or light is there. So why do they approach fire? But if you are approaching something else, how the same experience is there? Guest: Well... Prabhupāda: Say we approach fire, then approach may be a different way, but the goal, it is fire, you will experience heat and light. Guest: Well, approaching means... Prabhupāda: But if the approach is different, then how you will experience heat and light? Guest: Yes, but what are we approaching? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: What are we approaching? Prabhupāda: That you have to explain. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: We say... Guest: The Absolute. Prabhupāda: We say approaching Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute. We have got Kṛṣṇa's form, we have Kṛṣṇa's name, we have personal address, His pastime. Just like you know me, I know you, means I have got form, you have got form, I know your qualities, you know my qualities; therefore we know each other. But if the approach is void, then how the approach is the same? There must be something tangible; then the approach is the same. Guest: Well, I know your philosophy, cause I was very intimately involved with it, but I still believe that if, uh, your uh, you may have a different style, and you may call it Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you may call it nirvāṇa, but I think that ultimately it's, uh... Prabhupāda: I can, I can explain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but you cannot explain nirvāṇa. That is the difficulty. I can explain my position but you cannot explain your position. Guest: How is it that I cannot explain my position? Prabhupāda: Then explain what do you mean by nirvāṇa. Guest: Well it's the ultimate state of consciousness. Prabhupāda: Where is nirvāṇa when you do not know the meaning of nirvāṇa? Nirvāṇa means finished. Guest: Uh, yes. I think that... Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa means everything finished, void. Guest: Etymologically it means "no wind." Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: "No wind." Prabhupāda: No wind? Guest: The root of the word, I believe, means "no wind." There's no wind. Prabhupāda: No. You can derive many meanings, but nirvāṇa means, just like flame is there, extinguished, finished. Guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: That's not the way I understand nirvāṇa. Prabhupāda: But this is the meaning, dictionary meaning, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means there is flame and you extinguish. This is nirvāṇa. Devotee: You want some more vegetables and purīs? Prabhupāda: Give him. More, more. Guest: Not more. Devotee: Yes. Guest: If it is an extinguishing, it's only an extinguishing of desire. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: If there's an extinguishing... Prabhupāda: If desire is extinguished, then what you are? Guest: But it's not extinguishing of desire; it's transforming of desire. Like this is one... Prabhupāda: That is not extinguishing. Guest: Right. But in the sense it is, uh, the uh, flame of, uh... Prabhupāda: That we say. You don't extinguish desire but we purify desire. That is our... But that is not the void, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means finished. Guest: Well, the way, uh, the way it's interpreted, you know, by the people that practice it, is that, uh, you don't extinguish your desires either but they're transformed into the Buddha principles. They say this is the meaning of Mahayana Buddhism, is that you, uh, learn to identify the desire passions with the Buddha principles, and so they become transformed so that... Prabhupāda: Transformed to what? Guest: Well, for instance lust is supposed to be transformed into compassion, and the other uh, the other passion desires are transformed to something else. Prabhupāda: Then it is not nirvāṇa. It is real condition. Then that is our principle. That is not nirvāṇa. Just like... Guest: Well, this is what I mean by nirvāṇa. Prabhupāda: You mean, but you the word nirvāṇa. Suppose I take out your eyes. This is one thing. And I... Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Devotee: Gopāla wants to see you. [break] Prabhupāda: Suppose I take out your eyes. That is nirvāṇa. But if there is some disease, I cure it, that is (indistinct). Suppose cataract, cataract operation. Guest: Well, um, whatever the origin, so the word may be etymologically, the way it's used by the people that I'm studying with and the way I understand the meaning of the word is a little different than meaning just uh, sheer nothingness. Sheer nothingness is supposed to be a misunderstanding of what nirvāṇa means. Prabhupāda: Now you have to understand as it is in the dictionary. Guest: Well, as it is used by people. You have to understand it as, as it's used, you know, in uh, by, by the people who are using this word to... Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means, I have already explained, this is the people take, those who know Sanskrit, nirvāṇa means extinguished. Now, you may have different meaning. Guest: Right. Words change meaning as time goes on. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Words, I mean their root may be one thing, but then as time goes on the, uh, word doesn't remain, uh, the same as used by uh... Prabhupāda: Anyway, you can give your own meaning. What do you mean by nirvāṇa. Guest: Nirvāṇa is identifying your, uh, ah, passion desires with the innate Buddha principles, in this system. Prabhupāda: The life symptoms? Guest: Hm? Prabhupāda: Symptoms of life? Guest: In this system. Prabhupāda: System? What is that system? Guest: The, uh, Mahayana Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is that practically? Guest: The practical result? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: The practical result is, uh.... I don't see it as being far different from Kṛṣṇa consciousness, though the approach may be different. *Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa consciousness is stress is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. It is directly always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Guest: So that is... Prabhupāda: To offer obeisances to Kṛṣṇa, to worship Kṛṣṇa, to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the... Guest: So that if you... Prabhupāda: ...those who Buddhist, they do not know. They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe. Guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware... Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our, our understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe. Guest: No, they've rejected the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say. Guest: But I'm not trying to, uh, to set up, to argue sect against sect. *Prabhupāda: That's not the question. It's a question of philosophy. Here we just say, we know, just like we, we are devotee of Lord Buddha, keśava dhṛta*-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We glorify Lord Buddha because we know what is Buddha, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. So we know perfectly that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, but those who are cheated by Buddha, from their point of view I want to know what is their perspective. Guest: Now how, how, how, why would Buddha want to cheat people? Prabhupāda: Yes, cheated because they did not believe in God. So, but he is God, he is God; therefore he says, "What I say, you believe.'' That means he is cheating them. Guest: He didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest: Buddha didn't say that. Prabhupāda: Then why do you, why do you study Buddha philosophy? Guest: Well he said, "You study Buddha philosophy to arrive at principles of truth,'' but what Buddha said... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Buddha philosophy... Guest: What Buddha said was, he says, "Don't accept anything because I tell it to you. Don't accept anything because it's been believed for a long time by many people in many different places.'' He says, "Only believe that which you find true for yourself, and that is for your own good and for the good of others." Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha. Guest: Huh, but... Prabhupāda: But... Guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more uh, of an independent approach. He's not uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody but he was trying to... Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you, I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it is required. Guest: Cheating, yeah, tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad. Guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest..." Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for... Guest: "...leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying,'' meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly. *Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura*-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the (indistinct). They did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want (indistinct), but you come in a different place. So (indistinct) is there, but I am thinking it is not (indistinct). Similarly, God is there-Buddha-but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. [break] They're Australian. (Hindi conversation with another guest about Lakṣmī's position in relation to Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs) [break] Guru Dāsa: Like Lord Caitanya, you have also showed him the right way. Prabhupāda: He is on the line. Guru Dāsa: What was the discussion about Lakṣmī? *Prabhupāda: He says that Lakṣmī has no entrance in Vṛndāvana. He said that in Brahmā*-saṁhitā it says lakṣmī-sahasra, so what is, what are these Lakṣmīs? So gopīs are also Lakṣmīs. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Lakṣmī. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa; *therefore His, these girlfriends, they are also Lakṣmīs. Without Him, Lakṣmī, how she can associate with Kṛṣṇa? Ānanda*-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitabhis [Bs. 5.37]. [break] Harikeśa: ...communication, the only way of talking to the spiritual master to communicate is verbal talking, the only way in which one can communicate with his spiritual master? Prabhupāda: No, there are more.... [break] (?) ...instruction of spiritual master, that is actually communicating. Devotee: Hm. [break] Harikeśa: ...which I've always been afraid to ask, because I don't know if it's proper, but you being the external manifestation of Supersoul, if we are having questions, doubts, when, in your absence, if we are receiving indications, is there any possible way that someone who is so conditioned can have any understanding of proper action in your absence? In other words, if I am in your absence and I am in great doubt, and I am praying to Supersoul to please save me somehow, if I receive some action which I must do or some course of action becomes obvious, should I trust that, considering that you're communicating with me, or...? Prabhupāda: That depends on purity. If one has become pure, without any material desire, then that is possible. But if there is some material desire, we cannot expect direct communication. Harikeśa: So I have much material desire. Prabhupāda: I do not say you or he. This is the process. This is the process. Harikeśa: But in the meantime... Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: ...until we have reached the pure state... Prabhupāda: In the meantime it is not possible... Harikeśa: Not possible. Prabhupāda: ...directly. Harikeśa: So we must communicate with you verbally or through letters. Prabhupāda: Not with spiritual master here. You cannot concoct, "Now I am getting directly." No. Harikeśa: So the nature of the communication with the spiritual master in our state is only through... Prabhupāda: Spiritual master... Kṛṣṇa is also spiritual master. Harikeśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa sends spiritual master, His representative, as you can appreciate, externally, directly. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is already spiritual master. He could give you instruction from the very beginning. But why He is sending His representative? What is the use? Harikeśa: We're not able to... Prabhupāda: Ah, because unless we are completely purified, Kṛṣṇa will, does not talk directly. Therefore you have to understand Kṛṣṇa through the spiritual master. Harikeśa: So when we are having doubts, the only possible way, no matter what the indications are, are simply follow your instructions in all circumstances. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Right. [break] Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wanted instruction of guru, not directly. Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa's... Prabhupāda: That, that I was explaining in the morning. Harikeśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitya*-guru. One has to take the order of Kṛṣṇa through the media, via media of spiritual master. Harikeśa: So all of my activities, unless they are directly following your order, are more or less a concoction of my mind. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...office, you cannot contact the proprietor directly. There are subordinate officers. Through them you have to take the proprietor's help. The office master is there. You have to satisfy the office master. You cannot directly approach the proprietor. If you satisfy the office master, then your promotion and other things is all right. But if you want to... I have got practical experience. One of my friend, he was working in office. So the proprietor was there and many other employees were there. So that my friend, he suggested something to the proprietor, and the proprietor immediately dismissed him: "Oh, this man want to suggest me. Dismiss immediately. Give him his pay he will require.'' In that I have got practical experience. He later on became so sorry. Now it is the process. So this is practical. We should not try to approach directly Kṛṣṇa. That is not the right way. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: [Cc. Madhya 13.80] "I am the servant of the servant of.'' So you have to serve your immediate master, dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, servant of the Supreme Lord. If you want to jump over the original master, that is not good. Then you will be dismissed like, like my friend. Harikeśa: Associating with you is so wonderful, and yet... Prabhupāda: Just like here in Vṛndāvana, I was here, as I am sitting here. I was sitting here in this very place. That was (indistinct). And when I was hungry I could take my food there, same place. So that is one thing. Just like there are many persons, but because my spiritual master wanted, so I, at seventy years old, when I thought, "Now I shall go,'' I went, to serve the order of my spiritual master. Otherwise I am sitting here in Vṛndāvana. I am old man, I was chanting. Therefore, because that is my first business. Harikeśa: Were you just waiting to finish your books? Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just creating the situation how I shall serve my spiritual master. Harikeśa: Oh. Prabhupāda: Not that I was trying to directly contact Kṛṣṇa. That was not my business. This is required. If anyone wants to contact directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. [break] Guru dāsa: If there is a devotees who are not yet purified, if the devotee is not yet purified, why is the temple president a representative of you? If we are not at the purified stage, then why is the temple president a representative of yourself? Prabhupāda: To carry his order. That is purification. If you create your own atmosphere, then you become impure. If you simply carry out the order of your spiritual master, then you will be benefited. If you do your own business, that is not good. You can not do anything which is not ordered by your spiritual master. Of course, everyone should have sense. It is not that we are dull, stone. Unless it is moved, it cannot... You have got moving power. But the basic issue should be to carry out the orders of his spiritual master. That is your president. Otherwise you are not. Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience of someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions. Prabhupāda: Hm? Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience, someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions. Prabhupāda: That you have not to judge. Harikeśa: Ah. Prabhupāda: You are not to judge. You should be, you should know that this man is appointed, and he gets here by spiritual process. I must follow. You cannot judge him. Harikeśa: Oh. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is not your business, judging. Harikeśa: Then we simply wait for further instructions from you and keep.... Prabhupāda: No further instructions. Harikeśa: Ah. Prabhupāda: So long he is president you must follow him. If he is wrong, that will be corrected by the spiritual master. Harikeśa: Right. *Prabhupāda: You cannot correct him. Otherwise obedience is the first discipline. If you do not obey the representative, authority, then there cannot be any discipline. Then everything will be topsy*-turvy. Harikeśa: You would rather have us follow the temple president... Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Harikeśa: ...than to... Prabhupāda: If he is wrong, that cannot... He will come out. Harikeśa: Ah. Prabhupāda: So the steps will be taken by the spiritual master. You cannot, do not try to rectify. Harikeśa: Our advancement is the same? Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Our advancement... Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: ...is going on. *Prabhupāda: You follow, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2], gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80], servant of the servants of the servant of, then this is our. Guru dāsa: That's the consideration. Advancement is (indistinct). [break] Harikeśa: I know I am making mistakes. Prabhupāda: Why do you preach? Harikeśa: That's my question. Prabhupāda: Stop preaching. Harikeśa: Ah. Prabhupāda: If you know your mistakes and you're preaching, why this nonsense preaching? Harikeśa: Preaching must be perfect. Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect means as you have heard from your spiritual master. (indistinct) We are not perfect, none of us, but if you perfectly follow the orders of the perfect, then you are perfect. You should not think that "I have become perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, guru more mūrkha dekhi [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. He presented Himself as fool number one. So we should always keep ourself as fool number one, that "I am not perfect. I am fool number one." But whatever I am doing I am carrying the orders of the perfect. That is my credit. I am not perfect. Suppose I give you, (indistinct), five thousand dollars. That is not my money. I am not rich man. But the money is paid by somebody else and I deliver, that's all. That is my perfection. If I don't touch it, I do not take from five hundred dollars a paise even, and I deliver it, that is my perfection. I may not be rich man, but if I deliver this amount to you, in perfect order, that is my perfection. Harikeśa: Sometimes, due to my conditioning, I cannot exactly understand what you are saying. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you cannot understand what I am saying, then you should ask repeat. Try to understand (indistinct), that "I cannot understand this, and explain." Put it to the immediate president or any Godbrother. If he still, if he cannot explain, if he feels unable, he can inquire to me. In this way. Harikeśa: What if I don't know, I haven't understood? What if I think I have understood but I have actually not? Prabhupāda: There are many things like that. So you should try to understand it fully. Why should you understand it haphazardly? You must try to understand fully. [break] Harikeśa: ...position to criticize his Godbrothers, no matter what? Prabhupāda: You can criticize, if you are right. You cannot criticize wrongly. [break] Devotee: ...instructions rather than our sense gratification? [break] *Prabhupāda: It is not right that he says that. Sense gratification is wrong. You cannot gratify your senses. You have to enjoy your senses in the service of the Lord. That is perfection. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is our only business. [break] Devotee (lady): Thank you. I'm leaving. [break] Prabhupāda: ...hot. Devotee (lady): Yes. I'm just to make very hot. [break] Harikeśa: ...to increase as we become more and more pure? Prabhupāda: Everyone has got that intelligence, to understand and ... (end) Morning Walk -- March 17, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...and they would all come to our place in procession, and we shall feed them. This program should be started immediately. And so that the whole day and night this nuisance will go on. Guru dāsa: Maybe we should occupy the L.I.C. grounds in Delhi with kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: We should occupy the L.I.C. grounds in Delhi with kīrtana? Prabhupāda: No... No, you are jumping over... Now, the question is in Bombay. Why you are jumping in Delhi? Guru dāsa: But they asked us in L.I.C. the same thing. They asked us to leave L.I.C. grounds because the kīrtana was nuisance. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. That chapter is now... Guru dāsa: I see. Prabhupāda: ...in prominence. Don't come near. Devotee: We could go to the... [break] Prabhupāda: ...that they're planning the same plan as they did. This is the preliminary sign. Gupta: Swami Mahārāja, our program should enter the streets in the houses of different people and saṅkīrtana should be start from there, and... Prabhupāda: So do it! So don't speak. Now organize. Now there is no question of speaking. Practical. Everyone should take a leading part, and the saṅkīrtana nuisance should be started from Bombay. So Balavanta Prabhu, you are taking? Balavanta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes [break] ...assistants selected, so many sannyāsīs, and do it. You take the leaders. Balavanta: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...idea. Balavanta: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. [break] And we shall pollute the whole world with this nuisance. Devotees: Jaya. Haribol. (breaks) Prabhupāda: ...become an exemplary gosvāmī to give fight to the gosvāmīs here. You are, how many years you are in Vṛndāvana? Huh? How many years you are here? Guru dāsa: Two and half years. Prabhupāda: Two and a half years. Now you should represent Rūpa Gosvāmī, and you should challenge them, "You are not gosvāmī. I am gosvāmī." But you have to be exemplary. Do you know what is the definition of gosvāmī? Guru dāsa: One who works hard for Kṛṣṇa day and night and one who controls his senses. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first thing. Vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegaṁ manasa-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt [NoI 1]. One who can control these kinds of urges, vāco vegam, talking nonsense*-that is called vāco vegam. Krodha-vegam, anger. Urges of the mind. Mind dictates, "Do this, do that." Then udara-vegam, eating vegam. "Eat more, more, more." Udara-vegam. Upastha-vegam. Genital. When one can control these six vegān, urges, then he is fit for becoming gosvāmī, and he can make śiṣya all over, śiṣya, disciple, all over the world. Pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. This is gosvāmī. Not that a business. (Hindi) Is there any mention Bhāgavata-saptāha in the Bhāgavatam? There are so many big, big commentators. They have never recommended. But this business is going on. They are holding Bhāgavata-saptāha and bringing money and employing it for the sons', daughters' marriage very opulently. And the, their supporters, they're also invited. They say, "Oh here is a gosvāmī." This is going on here. [break] ... of gosvāmī, there is not a single gosvāmī. At least visible. Where is that vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegam udara upastha-vegam [NoI 1] control? And where is that pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt, all world-wide? Guru dāsa: Yes, disciples... Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Ah, where is that? Śiṣya. Devotee: You are. Prabhupāda: I may be whatever I am. That's all. But this is the definition of gosvāmī. Besides that, there are other, many things. Guru dāsa: I also, I also, the first day kicked a pāṇḍā out because he wouldn't eat prasādam with us. He said, "I am Vaiṣṇava. I cannot eat amongst you." So I said, "Then we cannot hear from you. Go immediately." The first day. Prabhupāda: Hm. That's all right. Devotee: He wanted to go and have tea. [break] Prabhupāda: ...money, but not your prasāda. Guru dāsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Money's pure. (laughter) And prasāda, because it is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is impure. Just see their argument. Money is pure. Even you can give me with your hand as much as you like. Because it is pure, I'll take it. And so far prasāda is concerned, because it is offered to Kṛṣṇa, therefore I cannot take it. [break] Oh yes. She has got the power. Śakti*-mati Sar. Some... The police commissioner has remarked, "This bhajana is nuisance." So we have to agitate. There are so many Vaiṣṇavas. Bhajana is nuisance? Eh? Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So there must be some big agitation to drive away this man. The demand should be that "This man should be immediately removed. He has focused a sarcastic remark on a very pure religious system." This movement should be started. He must be removed immediately. Balavanta: We can hold protest marches downtown. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guru dāsa: Large. Large scale protest marches. Balavanta: All the Vaiṣṇavas will come with us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to organize all... There are many Vaiṣṇavas. Eh? In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. One has to chant "Kṛṣṇa" always. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu: kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. And this rascal is saying "nuisance." So it is not possible to invoke an agitation against this? What right he has got to say nuisance? He could have spoken in a sweet language that "The bhajana may be very good for the devotees, but it creates disturbance to the others. Therefore we cannot allow." I say like that. But they cannot still stop bhajana. But he has remarked the bhajana: "Nuisance." This very word will kill him if you make proper agitation. Guru dāsa: That means the whole government is feeling that way. Otherwise he would not feel strong in saying it. Prabhupāda: That is a fact, but we have to become strong. Guru dāsa: Yes. We must defeat them all. Balavanta: We can mainly single out him. Prabhupāda: Eh? Balavanta: We can mainly single him out for now and protest against him, make him the example. Guru dāsa: Make an example of him. Balavanta: The man in Bombay, government leader. *Prabhupāda: There are many parties in Bombay, kīrtana parties. You have to organize them and bring them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa everywhere. Create this nuisance. And Maharashtra is the country of Tukārāma. He organized kīrtana. Still the Tukārāma kīrtana parties are there. Viṭṭhala. Viṭṭhala means Kṛṣṇa. And ideal gosvāmī should remain here to challenge these false gosvāmīs. But if you also become false, then you cannot challenge. [break] ...have come, we can talk with them. Mr. Gupta, your pathaks (?), they have come. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jayo. (Hindi) [break] ...have sufficient quantity of grains, then you are dhanavān. This is all false, so*-called dhanavān. (Hindi) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. If you want to flourish, you must have sufficient grains. Where is that grain? Some... (Hindi) Lecture. What is that lecture? Where is anna? [break] (Hindi) This is going on. (Prabhupāda describes in Hindi how Bhāgavatam describes the present government leaders as dogs, hogs, camels and asses; and other topics) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. This is the only... (Hindi) Our movement is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone knows. (Hindi conversation with Indian woman continues for some time.) *Puṣṭa*-Kṛṣṇa: Just like Dhṛtarāṣṭra, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa*-Kṛṣṇa: Just like Dhṛtarāṣṭra. Still they are told that Kṛṣṇa is God, and they still do not heed the warning. Prabhupāda: Let them accept at least like Dhṛtarāṣṭra. That is also good. Therefore Dhṛtarāṣṭra was saved at the end, in spite of so many things. By the help of Vidura, he left home and became successful, because he believed in Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa is God, yes. But I cannot control myself." He admitted his deficiency. Therefore he was liberated. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Because he admitted Kṛṣṇa is God, therefore at the end he was liberated. Mahato bhayāt. Bhāgavata: But Duryodhana would not admit. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhāgavata: Even though Kṛṣṇa showed His universal form, Duryodhana still did not agree. Prabhupāda: No, Duryodhana also agreed. All of them got salvation. That is mentioned. Anyone who was in the Battle of Kurukṣetra, all of them got salvation. By their being killed in the battle, they all got liberation and salvation. That is stated by Bhīṣmadeva. Svarūpa. Svarūpa means they came to their original Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] (Hindi conversation continues for some time) Materially to get bācche (children) you require the help of husband, but spiritually you don't require anyone's help. In Kṛṣṇa only. That's all. (end) Morning Walk -- March 18, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: Not kīrtana. Kīrtana, ārati, bhoga, lecture, so many ways. I have explained this. Guru dāsa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...big hotel, ISKCON Vegetarian Hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five star. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of the big points is... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...five star hotel. It must be very gorgeous. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Immediately submit plan and... Where is Surabhi? Guru dāsa: Surabhi? He's here. [break] Prabhupāda: Where you get plan for hotel in Bombay? Surabhi: Inside? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Full front of the land, whole front land. No temple. Prabhupāda: Whole... Surabhi: Only hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. With a hall, hall on the ground floor. Covering the whole land. Prabhupāda: Not for the whole ground floor. First floor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the first floor, one big, big hall. Surabhi: Only hotel? One plan? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got the site plan of the land? Surabhi: Yes, I have all the plans for Bombay. Prabhupāda: Ah. Then you can make a sketch. [break] ...plan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing you should know, Prabhupāda. The hotels in that area are being sold. ["Hotel" in India may mean merely a restaurant. Publisher's note.] Prabhupāda: Let them be sold. Our hotel does not depend on them. We are always independent. Guru dāsa: Why are they being sold? For lack of people coming? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the people may be doing, they... Prabhupāda: Two hotels? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two. King's Hotel, and Horizons. Prabhupāda: Are for sale, or they have been sold? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are selling. The owners are selling. Prabhupāda: So... *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say... I spoke with one hotel man, and he says the price of petrol is now three rupees, twenty*-five paise per liter. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Petrol now costs three rupees twenty*-five per liter. That means about three or four times what it was previously. So people are not so much inclined; since they have their business in the city, if they stay in Juhu... Prabhupāda: That is one of the reasons. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...they have to go all the way from Juhu into the city. It costs twenty*-five rupees by taxi. Guru dāsa: This is happening all over the world to the hotel business. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guru dāsa: All over the world. All over the world. Prabhupāda: Hotel business declining? Guru dāsa: All over. Because of the petrol shortage. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it's not permanent. Guru dāsa: They'll have to do something, because... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not permanent. The thing is that our life, if we put up a hotel, Prabhupāda, all of our life members, at least, I know, in fact, will use the hotel. Plus many foreigners will still use. Because we are not, we are not... Our hotel will not simply be for the business foreigners. Prabhupāda: It is for spiritual culture. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual culture. Right. So for that purpose it makes no difference the center of the city or elsewhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...dependent any condition. We are independent. And you are criticizing. Permit has not been obtained. And if you think that there is no possibility of temple being sanctioned, then we start hotel. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All right, that is already there. But if the sanction is not there, what we will do? Keep the land vacant? [break] That I am trying to get sanction, "Is it all right." If you don't, then hotel. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise build a hotel in the front and a temple in the rear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And then it satisfies both. [break] Prabhupāda: No. The same view. Eh? Devotee: Yeah. [break] Prabhupāda: One man's walking, Letchmore Heath. Devotee: Like this. Prabhupāda: It is like this. Atmosphere is little different. It was cold out. The sky is not so clear. Otherwise, land view is the same. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Remembering that Kṛṣṇa's here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's always the memory that Kṛṣṇa's here. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. Satsvarūpa: When Prabhupāda was walking in Letchmore Health, he said, "This looks like Govardhana Hill." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bicyclist: (ringing bell) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: It's like you said last night. They begin to chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru dāsa: Do the rickshaw drivers in Letchmore Heath chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No, they were sleeping. (laughter) That is western. Here you will find even the old man rises early in the morning. Yes, take bath. Without any reference to Hare Kṛṣṇa. They chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. In the village, they take bath early in the morning. That is very healthy. [break] ...I have generally... (indistinct) (heavy wind noise) Satsvarūpa: Mixed with moisture? Prabhupāda: That I do not know. The scientists say that it is a blazing fire, sun planet. Fire is generally red color with little yellow. Why it is white? We have no experience of fire, white. So how do they say it is fire? That is my question. [break] ...tell me what blue I have seen. Red I have seen. Where is white? Guru dāsa: (indistinct) the sun is a reflection of the brahmajyoti? Prabhupāda: That is another. First of all, you answer whether it is fire or something else. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...dew. Prabhupāda: Where is the moisture? It is clear shine. Where is the moisture? [break] (laughter) It is not fire. It is a brilliant body. It is not fire. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...body of Vivasvān? Prabhupāda: Whole planet, I mean the population, they're so bright. Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in your lectures you explain the living entities can live there because they have bodies of fire. Prabhupāda: Fiery. Not fire. Guru dāsa: Fiery. Prabhupāda: Because there is heat and brightness, therefore they can say fire. Just like, what is called, diamond. Diamond looks like, bright, like this beautiful. But that is not fire. Diamond, real diamond, you keep in dark room; it will be light. But that is not fire. Devotee: Effulgent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bright. Brightness. (heavy wind noise) [break] Devotee: That stars? Prabhupāda: Stars? They are planets like this planet. Like moon planet, the moon planet. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī. The stars, they are so many moons, not suns. They say "sun." And we say, "No, it is moon." Sun is only one. In each universe there is one sun, but there are many planets like moons. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reflections. *Prabhupāda: Reflection. We get it from Bhagavad*-gītā. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī. (heavy wind noise) [break] ...due to the sun, reflect. Guru dāsa: Why does the moon reflect? They say the moon is sandy, but this sand here is not reflecting. Prabhupāda: That... They are not going to the moon planet. They are going to some other planet, Rahu planet. Guru dāsa: Rahu? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many planets invisible. So there is a Rahu planet which comes in front of the moon planet, and that is called eclipse. So there is a planet rotating. I think they are going to that Rahu planet, not to the moon planet. Haṁsadūta: How can they make such a mistake? Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: How is it that they made such a big mistake? Prabhupāda: Their whole life is mistake. (laughter) They cannot do anything but mistake. Why you are so much confident about that? Their whole life is simply mistake. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, they see a little fire, and they see that it has heat and light, and so they see a huge thing having heat and light, and so they conclude that that's also a fire. So if that's their deductive method, then if they see that whenever there's intelligence, there must be a person, then why don't they conclude that behind the universe, there's so many wonderful things, that there must also be a person? Prabhupāda: Yes, we say there are persons, combination of fiery persons. Therefore it looks so bright. Akṣayānanda: Is the brightness of a diamond because of the presence of a jīva? Prabhupāda: Eh? Akṣayānanda: The brightness...? No. Prabhupāda: Suppose you get a diamond body. Just like glowworm. Glowworm, it has a glowing body. That's all. But the glowing substance is different from the soul. Owner of the body is different. What he's doing? [break] ...came other day, morning? Guest: (indistinct) [break] Prabhupāda: ...have purchase this land for him for preaching Christian Bible. So he, maybe he was getting some salary on this land in this way. He gave up Gauḍīya Maṭha association and he became Christian. So I know that this land belonged to him. His wife was there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Allahabad. Prabhupāda: Maybe at Allahabad. He's the proprietor. He was Mr. Cakravarti. (end) Room Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: : ...disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious (indistinct) is an opiate of the (indistinct). It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana. To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come. Then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for pan... I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and... Guest (Indian man): Signatures of them. *Prabhupāda: Many thousands many lakhs. And this is one point... And we prove from śāstric evidences, as it is stated that, in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Bhajana, bhajante, this bhajana word is used with reference to the very pious men, sukṛtinaḥ. And just opposite number is duṣkṛtinaḥ, miscreants. So bhajana is for the most pious man, recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, and Bhagavad-gītā is held up in so great estimation all over the world, and this man has accused bhajana as nuisance? So how much rascal and ignorant person he is. And he is one of the important position. This is government. The bhajana is described in the Vedic śāstra as,... It is a dealing of the most pious men. And he's talking it as nuisance. So far kīrtana, bhajana-kīrtana, kīrtana is concerned, Kṛṣṇa has said, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. These are the symptoms of mahātmās. So we have to make position that bhajana is so important. And Bhagavad-gītā is meant for all solution of material problems, but we are not accepting it. So why not try to follow the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. And the most easiest process, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14], always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. "So you please come with us. We are foreigners, but we know Kṛṣṇa is not for this or that. Therefore we have taken seriously this, here. So why, Indians, you are lacking here? This is... You come forward. You are educated youths, gentlemen. You take your culture. We have taken our cul..., your culture. It is not 'your-our,' but you think that it is your culture. But Kṛṣṇa is neither for Indian or for you. He's for everyone. So therefore we have taken to Kṛṣṇa. So why not try this, that it is stated in the..., that kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by kṛṣṇa-kīrtana, one becomes free from all contamination. So why not join with us? What is the wrong there? It is stated in your śāstra. And we have adopted it. And we are feeling actually better. So why you are so much callous, you educated youths, gentlemen?" This has to made propaganda. And let them come. At least, Sunday morning. And... It is roaming like this? Guest: Eh? Prabhupāda: It is revolving? Hari-śauri: (indistinct) Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita. Guest: I think we can also fix it. Prabhupāda: No, revolving is. Guest: You want revolving? Is it on? Hari-śauri: Yeah, more or less, but it's not so good though. *Prabhupāda: This will be propaganda and to invite people to come and let them give in writing that "Here the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple must be there." Take thousand, millions of signatures. So prove that it is not nonsense. It is the most essential thing. This way. And so far traffic is concerned, now, there is big road. So make two gates, in and out, this side, so there is no question of traffic convenience. In this way, do presentation. That is my suggestion. And this letter will not be very much effective. Guest: ...jī? May I submit a matter? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest: This about propaganda and collecting the signatures in the lakhs will not only take a lot of energy of the devotees, but it will take more time also. It is, in the city of Bombay, it is not practicable. Because people are very busy, and around the clock everybody is counting every second which he spends and more so, it's difficult for people to devote time towards a sat*-saṅga or to sign the letter that they had no objection and on the contrary, the action of the police commissioner is condemnable, undesirable. That will take a lot of time. And I think by writing them a letter, by of our reconsidering, we lose nothing. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: By writing them a petition. Prabhupāda: But if... It has no effect. Guest: I don't say there is no effect. They can always reopen the case and reconsider because the two grounds there which they have mentioned. Number one, it is a nuisance. It is to be proved it's a nuisance. And always a practice... Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to go, public should go. Those who are interested Hindus and Vaiṣṇavas, they should go to the court and prove in the court that it is not nuisance, essential. Guest: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people that the bhajanas, and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because... *Prabhupāda: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat*-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras. *Guest: So therefore... You see, the authors of the śāstras... śāstra big authors who are good so*-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras, but the government which is so-called secular or pro-muslim and the pro-communist... Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your one śāstra. Guest: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not... Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court. Guest: Therefore... I'm coming on that. What I say on the prima facie, the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection, of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple, is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is going. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The position was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of position, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty man. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was, I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said, "may be." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said, "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. It "may be." That means the option is equally open: "May not be," also. That's only (indistinct) has been taken without any basis of policy. Prabhupāda: That is your second item. Guest: And our... I'll finish that. Now, third is in the constitution rights. Now, under the constitution of India ever person, body or organization has been given the liberty and the equal right to propagate any religion. Under the constitution, I have got a liberty to express my path for any religion. Of course, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to me, is not a religion because it is universal. It is not for any sector. Prabhupāda: (about fan) It is not moving like that, revolving? Satsvarūpa: No, the other one is not working. Prabhupāda: Oh. Guest: I don't require anything, Guru Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. But make it full force. This is full? (Sound of loud fan coming on.) Yaśomatīnandana: This revolves, but I don't know how. Prabhupāda: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There, there is no Indian. Guest: That's what will come in the way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: That I've been telling Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that you should have some Indians. Prabhupāda: No, should have, but no Indians are coming. Guest: No, but then you should appoint somebody, you know. Prabhupāda: No, we cannot appoint. That is not. That is not possible. We cannot appoint. That is useless. Paid men is useless. Guest: Paid... Appointed does not mean that you pay them. Appointing can be honorary also. I don't say that you pay them. Prabhupāda: So who is honorary coming. They are also honorary, but who is dedicating... Guest: So you should have in India those people... Prabhupāda: "I should have" means you, if you become "should have." Otherwise... Guest: I don't mind becoming, or you can have somebody... *Prabhupāda: Nobody is taking seriously, Indian. So many years we are here. How many Indian*-educated youths are coming? They are not interested. Guest: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some... *Prabhupāda: Then that... No, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the... But in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes that if they make it without... Just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that... There, they understand that these Americans making this satyagrama (?), or as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty*-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my, so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out." Guest: Yes, they can throw them out. No, my intention was not that this movement should be by foreigners because that will be against them. What I was meaning to. They should be... Prabhupāda: That should be taken. Therefore I say, hold meeting, and the Hindus, the Vaiṣṇavas, they should take action. Not Americans. There may be Americans, but they'll... Guest: No, what I say that Americans may organize it, but the participants should be Indians. Prabhupāda: No, organize... They have actually come to me. They were attracted with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Therefore they have come to me. They did not expect that Indian government, although the money has been paid by them, and still, the Indian government is against this movement. They were not prepared for all these things. Unfortunately, these things are happening in India. We had no such difficulty in any part. Only the less intelligent class, they are... Just like in Africa, they are "junglese." Guest: Uncivilized. *Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India where the civilization is supposed to be so... And actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that "Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what, how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad*-gītā... Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti... Gandhi was chanting in temple: Raghupati rāghava. So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana, take prasādam, and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and... I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā. And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance, essential, we want it, and the other thing, we are making gate in and out to get... Submit a plan like that, that this is... There will be no... That may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architects, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come..." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasādam, and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. Then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha (?) is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha, and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so. Guest: Yes, Rajasthan. *Prabhupāda: Rajasthan. So the government is so rogue that hungry men they have come and we are firing. And the... Your sva*-rāja was obtained by nonviolence. This is the result. Actually, you cannot expect any justice from this government. Guest: One has to snatch the justice from them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Not by begging or mercy. Even the Gujarat, the people people which they have done, how they have got this liberty or whatever it is, is all by fighting, by firing back to government. Otherwise the government has the majority of the assembly. Congress Party (indistinct). How they will resolve it? It is the first time there is a majority of the members of assembly could be resolved because people do not want it. It's unconstitutional, but yet, (indistinct) constitutional method has been adopted because they... Prabhupāda: And they have smashed the speaking. Guest: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: The Hindustan people lied doing that. Guest: Nothing lied. They will say a lie is nothing for the sake of liberty. Prabhupāda: What is that liberty? Therefore we have to educate public that the... Guest: And another thing, regarding the propaganda, as you said rightfully, that that propaganda you have to make in the city and not in the Juhu area. Because here... Prabhupāda: No, no, in the city. I have told you. A big, big hall. Guest: Yes. A big halls or a pandal as we had held two years back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Guest: I don't know how you have got the sanction. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Guest: And there the people can come in the thousands and... Prabhupāda: Yes, that I have already said. Guest: ...on the neighboring stand, we should raise... *Prabhupāda: No, we request them that "You have taken so many ways, but your problems are not... Why not take this simple problem? Come with us, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and try to understand little, one śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā. What is the...? You have no loss. But if you do it, we assure you the solution is there, all solution." Let us make this propaganda. Never mind, they do not sanction forever. It doesn't matter. But this propaganda wanted. What is that temple? Temple, there are many thousands. Guest: Last year or two years back, we had lots of (indistinct) central playground (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Make that. And give them prasādam. Let them have saṅkīrtana. Here, that meeting will be done here. In this way make propaganda. It doesn't matter it will be belated. It doesn't matter. It will be a... Better late than never. But this propaganda should be done. [break] Now, now, better purchase hundred chairs. So around the temple room place hundred chairs so that many people can stand. They will sit comfortable without, with the, with their shoes. So make some attraction, people may come. And whoever comes, give them prasādam. Whatever you can. "Please take prasādam." Give him plate. Make this way. Guest: What I was saying apart from all that... In my personal capacity, not as a lawyer, as a life member,... But as a life member, I can help on the police commissioner also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: In writing, I can help on the police commissioner. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Guest: Whatever I have written it, giving my personal shape, I can write him and I can discuss the problem with him as a life member of our (indistinct). Prabhupāda: No, not as our lawyer. Guest: That... No, I say... Prabhupāda: On your personal capacity. Yes. Guest: I say... Prabhupāda: Yes, as a public man, as a person, you can do that. Guest: "As a life member, I am suffering because of this reason that there is no construction of a temple, therefore I cannot develop spiritually." Prabhupāda: No, you can go to other temples. Guest: No, if I have got attraction for a particular temple, why I should be denied. Prabhupāda: Then you are spiritually not improving. Guest: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: Then you are not spiritually improving. Guest: No, but that is how they will give me reply, and I can tell them. Prabhupāda: That is not very strong reason. Guest: No, but what I say, they may be a strong, but I say I am stronger than them. Prabhupāda: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the... Guest: No, no. I... Prabhupāda: ...that your idea means our idea, carried. Guest: Not necessarily. [break] Prabhupāda: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion. Guest: Certainly, it's my honest opinion. Prabhupāda: But the thing is I want to do something solid. Guest: No, but what I say is my... Prabhupāda: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much. Guest: No, but, uh, I am hopeful. Prabhupāda: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that... Guest: Unless they have got some... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: From Delhi. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Unless there is an adverse report from Delhi. Yaśomatīnandana: Delhi. Guest: You see if there is any report from the Delhi, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, against this movement, because being Americans... Prabhupāda: No, they are against this movement, that I have got many proofs. Guest: But if they will logically... Prabhupāda: Logic, there is no logic. Guest: No, but what I say. If they are appeased... Prabhupāda: Argumentum baculam. Their logic is sword. Guest: No, but what I say... The basic problem is that if the center is against, if the (indistinct) man, is against... Prabhupāda: That I know that they are against. Guest: If the (indistinct) men is against, therefore they are disclosing their weakness. Prabhupāda: And indirectly, Indira Gandhi sometimes said that... Many politicians have said. In London, the high commissioner, he said, "Swamiji, your movement is so nice." He's a Maharastrian Pant. Pant. So... But we cannot do anything of this way. Guest: No, but if the center is against, then my logic says... Prabhupāda: Center is against. Guest: If the center is against, then how they have given a permission Delhi? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Then how we have got a permission in Delhi? Prabhupāda: What is that permission? Guest: Temple permission building. Yaśomatīnandana: We don't have... We haven't built a temple in Delhi. Guest: We don't have a temple in Delhi. Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest: Then what about the permission in the Māyāpura? Prabhupāda: Māyāpura, that doesn't require any permission. Guest: What? Prabhupāda: That doesn't require any permission. That is in the village. Guest: And what about this Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: That also, they gave permission with great difficulty. Guest: Hyderabad? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad, I do not know. Yaśomatīnandana: Hyderabad is easier because the people are very much in favor. Prabhupāda: Yes. And Vṛndāvana they gave it very late. After one year. Vṛndāvana. Because the government doesn't want further development of Vṛndāvana. They are neglecting the city in such a way that no gentleman will go there. The old city... Formerly, it was planned that "So many pilgrims come here. It should be nicely developed." But now they have given up. They have purposefully kept so nasty. You have seen the city? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So nasty that nobody will go there. Guest: But should we now take the help from the political parties such as Shiv Sena? Prabhupāda: That is very good. Guest: Because they were the, only these people, who have stopped the police, the municipal commissioner from breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: Breaking the temple. Prabhupāda: But one thing is... My fear is that as soon as they know the American people are agitating this, they may ask, "You go." Guest: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: And I have no Indians to manage these big, big temples. Neither they are trained up. Trained up. I have trained up these American boys. They are doing nicely. But they cannot. They have taken a brahmacārī dress, and they will come with pant. And they will argue, "Why? What is the wrong there? Why should I give up pant? Why shall I have tilaka? Why shall I give up smoking?" Why, why... They will put so many "whys" that my life will be spoiled. Because they have advanced. So many rascals swamis have told them, "Yes..." Guest: But the same principle, as you say, that if we do anything, they may send our people out of India. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest: As you rightly say, that if we do anything, actively, then they may send your boys going out of India, foreigners. Americans. Yaśomatīnandana: They will kick us. Guest: "Yes. Throw them out." They will argue on that ground and they will say that "You are not required. You are nuisance," or whatever the reasons. Prabhupāda: Any, no reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you." Guest: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, try to get another, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys. Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda, preach. Guest: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them. Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting. Yaśomatīnandana: We are not going to preach against them. Guest: No, no, here... Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy. Guest: No, but your philosophy is only, you see, you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking signatures. Yaśomatīnandana: Oh yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say... Guest: Even though you never say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals. Yaśomatīnandana: So they... Guest: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India." Yaśomatīnandana: But here is agitation. We are... Guest: (indistinct) ...propaganda of collecting the signatures... [break] Yaśomatīnandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with... Prabhupāda: Who is arranging for this higher level? Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? But you do not know. This, you should never close this... (end) Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: The point is that these daityas are elected by the daityas. *Dr. Patel: Now, sometimes even they were liked, the daityas. When they have the samudra*-mathana, even the devas went to the daityas to help them. So it is... I mean, that is not so. We have to take the help of daityas for a good work. But they are frustrating us. How is the argument? All right? Prabhupāda: No. Because there are no more available devas, therefore daityas are the only... Dr. Patel: We are like that. These rascals, you see, they have got no sense of proportion. There are two dozen mosques come up in this area without any reason in any way. And they are upset when there is construction of a Hindu temple. They are majority. So they are daityas. [break] Prabhupāda: ...required... They, they, they required. We are... Dr. Patel: They are thinking themselves to be qualified. Prabhupāda: We are... We are... Dr. Patel: What do... They are getting qualified every day by madeira (?). And what other things which I don't want to talk to you. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: So when it is mixed, it is called varṇa*-saṅkara. (laughter) *Dr. Patel: Well, the varṇa*-saṅkaras are more strong today than the pure saṅkaras. [break] Prabhupāda: ...question, I shall try to answer. Trivikrama: Give you a question? Prabhupāda: Hm. *Dr. Patel: Yeah. I have taken out a śloka from Bhagavad*-gītā for you. And my friends always tells me not to put it before you because it will create a sort of a hot discussion. But I am going to put it. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Patel: It is this... Ye 'py... Bolo. Guest (2) (Indian man): Ye 'py anya... [break] *Dr. Patel: ...mām. Ye 'py anya*-devatā Guest (2): Bhaktāḥ. *Dr. Patel: Ye 'pi bhaktāḥ. Nei. Bhajante, śraddhayānvitāḥ, te 'pi mām eva bhajante, te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi*-pūrvakam. They are also bhajanti, avidhi-pūrvakam. I mean, no doubt, they also, all, all who worship go to Kṛṣṇa's feet. Prabhupāda: Just like, just like if you want to give me some food to eat. So you should give me to my mouth, not to my rectum. (laughter) Dr. Patel: But they are doing it now. We are giving enema. We treat with enema in America. (laughs) He said, he said that don't give these things to him because... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, this is the reason: To give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole." Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give... Prabhupāda: No, no, that's right. Dr. Patel: But my question is... *Prabhupāda: Avidhi*-pūrvakam. Dr. Patel: No, but they're... *Prabhupāda: That is avidhi*-pūrvakam. *Dr. Patel: Avidhi*-pūrvakam. But also, still, they are worshiping God. Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is part and parcel of God, but everyone is not God. That is the way. That any hole of my body, that is my body. But when food is to be taken, it is only this, not another, other hole. That is the way. [break] ...and if you are saying like that... Just like... Here... When you... Dr. Patel: But it is of the... is doing that to you also. Why do you worry about it? Prabhupāda: No, no. When the... Dr. Patel: We can give it in the vein also. *Prabhupāda: No, no. (laughter.) That is not the way. That is avidhi*-pūrvakam. Dr. Patel: But... Listen. That is why I say, disease or no disease, vidhi's going to help your body and bring you nutrients, even given by intravenously or by rectum or by mouth. By any way. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no. Dr. Patel: But they are going to... He's going to... Prabhupāda: This is... This is for the nonsense. You see. Dr. Patel: Having the... Why nonsense now? Prabhupāda: No, no. If the way is this, that food should be taken within the mouth... *Dr. Patel: But this is also... This is what is said by Kṛṣṇa, by Himself in Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Avidhi*-pūrvakam. Everything is sevā, but avidhi-pūrvakam. Dr. Patel: It may be sevā, but... *Prabhupāda: Just like Kaṁsa. Kaṁsa was thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. But he's not a devotee. Avidhi*-pūrvakam. No, that... Dr. Patel: But he was not a bhakta. He was an enemy. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Therefore... He was thinking of Kṛṣṇa, but still, he's not a devotee. *Dr. Patel: But here is the question of devotee: ye 'py anya*-devatā-bhaktāḥ bhajante mām avidhi-pūrvakam. Bhakta. They are bhaktas, not enemies. Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakta. One who worships God, he's a bhakta. Just like sometimes you have to go to the chief minister through his cāparāsī. But the cāparāsī is not the chief minister. Dr. Patel: That's right. But a chief minister gets pleased through the cāparāsī. All right. (laughs) Prabhupāda: But if you, if you say... Dr. Patel: Not my argument it is, eh? This is the argument. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is wrong argument. You see... Just like our Hadaji Batlar (?), he was... Dr. Patel: Now, how would it be wrong argument, sir? We are following the same process. We collected those foodstuffs... [break] Prabhupāda: ...commissioner is not the politician. Why do you mix them? Dr. Patel: But Kṛṣṇa was never a politician. He was a... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is a wrong theory. This is a wrong theory. You can approach somebody through somebody, but they are two, individual persons. [break] ...He is bhakta, yes. Dr. Patel: "I am enjoyer of all the yajñas to whom, whatever and to whomever you are doing." How would you accept that... Prabhupāda: No, no. The king. The king is the proprietor of all taxes. But he's not a tax collector. Dr. Patel: Now, now, Chando Bhai, come here. Prabhupāda: The king... Guest (3) (Indian man): What do you want? Prabhupāda: ...is the proprietor... *Dr. Patel: Ahaṁ hi sarva*-bhoktānāṁ bhakto māṁ parameśvaram (?). Prabhupāda: Just like the king, and there are many tax collectors. So tax goes to the king. Guest (3): Yes, king, yes. Prabhupāda: It does not belong to the tax collectors. Guest (3): Correct. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. Guest (3): Correct. [break] Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): So you transcend them. Prabhupāda: "Everything, everything is connected with Me, but I am not that." That is... Guest (3): Much more than that. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Mattaḥ sarva*-bhūtāni, mat-sthānīti. Prabhupāda: Ah. Guest (3): He's much more than that. Prabhupāda: Nobody can exist without Kṛṣṇa. But that does not mean everybody's Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: But there is nobody other than Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no. Dr. Patel: Excepting the jīvas, as you say. Prabhupāda: No. Nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ. Dr. Patel: No, as I am reading the Bhāgavata today, everything is emanating from Kṛṣṇa. Even your jīvas are part and parcel of Viṣṇu's... Prabhupāda: Yes, that doesn't mean Kṛṣṇa is jīva. Dr. Patel: But he's evolved from everything, and nothing can exist without Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. Dr. Patel: If that is the real thing, then, I mean, any, any other deva being worshiped as good as... Prabhupāda: Just like everything is material energy, but that does not mean this land is the sea. That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Dr. Patel: No, no, it is not... Prabhupāda: Everything is material. Everything is material. If you say, "Then the land and the sea is the same,"... Dr. Patel: Yes! Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nonsense. Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is nonsense. Bhāgavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same. Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you. Prabhupāda: No, no. Scientist... Dr. Patel: Please... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense. Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no... Prabhupāda: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense. Dr. Patel: Nonsense in this present circumstances. You change the circumstances! Prabhupāda: Any circumstances! Any circumstances! Dr. Patel: Other circumstances. Prabhupāda: Any circumstances! You cannot say... We say that this is matter. But you cannot say that land is water, water is land. You cannot say that. Dr. Patel: Would you please give me a hearing... Prabhupāda: No, no, everything is matter, that is all right. Dr. Patel: That's right. That is what I want to say. Prabhupāda: No, that I admit! That I admit. That is the difficulty of the Māyāvādīs. They cannot distinguish the varieties. Guest (3): Land is the whole Brahman. Prabhupāda: Yes. The Māyāvādī... Dr. Patel: Whenever it is (?) a question of matter is evolved from māyā. So we are Māyāvādīs, all of you and me. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Yes, because we are talking of māyā. Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyā means śakti. Māyā means śakti. Dr. Patel: That's it. Then śakti's of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Nothing can happen without the śakti. Nothing can happen without the energy. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the... Dr. Patel: You cannot move your finger... Prabhupāda: But you cannot avoid the varieties. Dr. Patel: But variety is produced by... Prabhupāda: Just like in your body, this is your head, this is your hand. Everything is body. But if you say, "Everything is body," what is this nonsense? Dr. Patel: How can it be nonsense? Prabhupāda: Ah! It is nonsense! Dr. Patel: That particular... Prabhupāda: Why there is separate name, "This is head, this is hand, this is leg." Dr. Patel: When this thing, whole body, was in the embryo... Prabhupāda: Then it is called "unity in varieties." That is called. Dr. Patel: And I will... Shall I speak? Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot say the head and the leg is the same! Dr. Patel: Let me talk now. Prabhupāda: You cannot say that! Dr. Patel: Shall I talk it now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: When this body was being manufactured in the embryo, in the womb. Prabhupāda: No, I know that you don't require this! I know that. Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is matter. But it becomes varieties. Dr. Patel: It was not matter to anyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That was also inside. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: In the seed there is the whole banyan tree. Prabhupāda: Yes, matter... They manifested into varieties. First of all, they, after sex intercourse, the two seminas is emulsified, and it becomes like a pea. And it develops into different parts of the body. Dr. Patel: Right, but I, what I am coming to this point is that... Prabhupāda: But you cannot say... Dr. Patel: ...even in Upaniṣad, from a small seed, big banyan tree has come out. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: And that... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Patel: So seed is the real thing. And that seed is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So everything is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Again, everything is Kṛṣṇa! Same nonsense, same nonsense. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa says, "I am not that." Mat*-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. *Dr. Patel: Na tu mat*-sthāni bhūtāni paśya me, uh, aiśvaram! Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is varieties. Dr. Patel: But in the second... That is... Prabhupāda: So there is... Dr. Patel: ...correction in the second śloka only. Prabhupāda: No, no! It is not correction. It is correction because we fools, we cannot understand Him clearly. "So although everything is existing in Me, I am not everything." Dr. Patel: "Still, everything existing in Me." But... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: What is that? Guest (3): Ahaṁ yogam aiśvaram. Dr. Patel: Yogam aiśvaram. Prabhupāda: Just like in this hotel. There are so many furnitures, so many rooms. If you say, "Everything is hotel," what is this nonsense? Dr. Patel: Ah, but without furniture hotel cannot be? Without building, hotel cannot be. Without this... Prabhupāda: But why do you say, "It is furniture"? Dr. Patel: ...parts, all this, the body cannot be. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is means less intelligent. Dr. Patel: That is what I am... Prabhupāda: Yes Dr. Patel: I want to correct my intelligence. Prabhupāda: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent. Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel. Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a Buddha. Prabhupāda: You cannot say that. Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense argument. "Hotel is furniture." Dr. Patel: Yes, it is. Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... [break] Prabhupāda: You cannot say "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties. Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to give him the root. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent. Dr. Patel: I am very less intelligent. I have no intelligence. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: The root is manifested from the seed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That everyone knows. Dr. Patel: And that we are going to the seed... Prabhupāda: But you cannot say... Dr. Patel: And not to the top of the tree. Prabhupāda: You cannot say, when the tree is grown, you cannot say, "The leaf is also root. The fruit is also root. The trunk is also root." This is nonsense. Dr. Patel: This is what the *Vedas*... Prabhupāda: No, no. That, *Vedas* does not say. Veda is not so nonsense. Dr. Patel: Then it is (indistinct) very differently I understand it. *Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya*-bhedābheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like my the same example: the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different. Dr. Patel: Bheda? Guest (3): Bheda abheda. (break Prabhupāda: (laughs) ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency. Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me. Prabhupāda: No. That means you are less. Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less? Prabhupāda: But you should come to this, that there is, in the bheda, abheda, there is bhedas. In the abheda... It is very simple thing. That my hand is not different from my body, but still, hand is not body. It is... A child can understand. Dr. Patel: But when the child grows, he does not understand it. That is the misfortune of this. Prabhupāda: That is... Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda! Māyāvāda, no? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Māyāvāda. (chuckles.) Acintya*-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedābheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya. Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) [break] Prabhupāda: ...to eleven. Why not give me. Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here. Prabhupāda: Then Bhāgavata is compared to the body of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa worships begins from the feet. Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is avidhi*-pūrvakam. *Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi*-pūrvak, then I'll do it, vidhi-pūrvakam. Prabhupāda: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand. Bhāgavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupāda... [break] *Prabhupāda: Māyāvādam asac*-chāstraṁ pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate, pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate. Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open Buddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument... Prabhupāda: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand. Dr. Patel: No, I am, I am actually submissive. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no. Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding. Prabhupāda: But you... Because you... Dr. Patel: That is what I want... Prabhupāda: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand. Dr. Patel: No, I cannot submit till I understanding. Prabhupāda: No, no. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Praṇipāta, first of all, praṇipāta. Dr. Patel: I am always doing praṇipāta. *Guest (3) (Indian man): Jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah! Dr. Patel: I am doing praṇipāta to you. Do you think I am disrespecting you? If you take, then you pardon me. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. It is not the question of disrespecting, but that is not full surrender. You think that you know better than me. Dr. Patel: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong. Prabhupāda: Therefore you talk of all this... Dr. Patel: No, no. If you go on with that, I will not talk from tomorrow. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: I want to learn myself. Prabhupāda: But that will be very good. If you don't talk, simply hear, it will be beneficial. Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Now you don't talk then. When I say... Prabhupāda: (Chuckling) No, no. I say you, you simply hear. Don't talk. Dr. Patel: All right. Prabhupāda: Then you'll understand. Dr. Patel: And then, then, then I want to make you talk. What will I do? Prabhupāda: No. But your habit is as soon as we begin talks, immediately you talk. Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Without hearing. And therefore you do not understand. Dr. Patel: I think, uh... No, I think... What way I will make you talk? You tell me the way. I will make you talk... Prabhupāda: And you'll hear first of all. Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Let us hear. Prabhupāda: Then I... You are simply patient. Then if you cannot understand, you'll inquire. Not that you will think, "I know better than him. Therefore I shall talk." It will never help you to understand. Dr. Patel: Well, if you run away with the idea that I am thinking that, it is wrong. Prabhupāda: No, no. You are, you are habituated to think like that. Dr. Patel: I am habituated. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your... Dr. Patel: Habit is... Habit is habit. But I have got all respect for you. Don't say that I am thinking that. Prabhupāda: No, no. I know that. I know that. Dr. Patel: That is... Don't run away with that idea that I am disrespecting you. Prabhupāda: And therefore I am pointing out your defects. Dr. Patel: That's all right. I am prepared to correct it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But you, you keep mum. If I don't excite, you don't speak. So which way I shall excite you? (laughter throughout) Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of excitement. When you put a question, I shall answer it from the śāstras. Just like it is, it is any child can understand. If I ask a child, "What is this?" "Hand." "What is this?" "Head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "Body"? So you are speaking less than a child. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Hm. That is what I am. That is what I am. That is what I am. Prabhupāda: Yes. Any child, if you ask him, "My dear child, what is this?" He'll say, "It is hand." "What is this?" "It is head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "All body"? You are speaking like that. Dr. Patel: Like... How shall I speak? Shall I beat your body? Prabhupāda: No, no. (laughter) Don't speak. Dr. Patel: Where is the right way? Prabhupāda: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" What he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child. Dr. Patel: That is what I am. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, Mr. Sar! Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a baniya (?). He'll reserve his opinion. Guest (4) (Indian man): To answer the scripture... [break] Prabhupāda: No, no. Vedic system is... Guest (3): You know, all these... [break] Prabhupāda: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, śādhi māṁ prapannam. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. That is required. Guest (3): Guru expects from you that thing... [break] Prabhupāda: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone... Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... [break] *Prabhupāda: According to our Vaiṣṇava principles, ādau gurvāśrayam, the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad*-dharma-pṛcchā. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. One should follow the footprints of the previous ācāryas. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is ādau gurvāśrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may, you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the śiṣya and the guru should meet together... Dr. Patel: And don't talk. Prabhupāda: Eh? No, the guru, I mean, the aspirant śiṣya will hear and study whether he's actually fit for becoming guru. Similarly, the guru will also study that whether he's actually fit for becoming a... Just like in our society. We don't accept immediately. We don't give initiation immediately. First of all lives for some time. Then when he becomes eager, we give the first initiation, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Then after one year, when he's fit, he's doing everything well, then we initiate him. This is our process. [break] Yes. Dr. Patel: So if you don't hear near me, so that is the misfortune of all... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You are a learned gentleman. Dr. Patel: He's learning. Prabhupāda: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing. Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. [break] Guest (3): You cannot argue what he says. Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... [break] Prabhupāda: That is nice. Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship? Prabhupāda: You should be fired always. (laughter) But if I do not say sometimes nice, then it will be dangerous. Dr. Patel: Then why you'll understand that this is all humbug? Bhāgavata: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. So this is the qualification of celā. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijñāsu. What kind of jijñāsu. (Hindi) Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. "What is the best ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru. Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion. "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru. Dr. Patel: (laughs) That is good. *Prabhupāda: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here, come here, guru." (laughter) Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of celā. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. One who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires, he requires a guru. And guru means, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam. Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the qualification. Śābde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Śābde pare ca. Niṣṇātam. He has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmaṇy upaśama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman. That's all. How simple it is, the qualification of celā and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one." Dr. Patel: So you told me the same thing. Very good. I must be proud that I am going to be lion(?). That is what you mean to say. Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the guru's... Guru's business is, when he talks much, he says, "All right, it is all right," but when he accepts guru slaps. Dr. Patel: Choke him up. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Yes. How mildly He says: Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā*-vādāṁś... [Bg. 2.11]. "You do not know what is what..." Dr. Patel: "You are a fool." *Prabhupāda: "You are a fool number one." Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. He says, "A paṇḍita does not like this." That means, "You are a mūrkha." Indirectly, He said, "A paṇḍita does not do this. Now you learn." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... [Bg. 2.13]. He began to speak Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Patel: Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti... Prabhupāda: Nānuśocanti. The body, either dead or living, the paṇḍita has nothing to care about. But the whole world is taking care of the body. Dr. Patel: Because the world is body conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are all... None of them are paṇḍitas. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is described as ass and cow. *Dr. Patel: Go*-kharaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, go*-kharaḥ. Yes. You have heard so many things. [break] ...buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Kalatrādiṣu, attached. Dr. Patel: Wife and others. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhauma*-ijya-dhīḥ. And land, "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. [break] Now... Dr. Patel: And Hindus... (laughs) Prabhupāda: Go vā kharo vā. The same thing. Go is little useful because it supplies milk, and kharaḥ is useful. You overburden him. Dr. Patel: No, we were giving milk of kharaḥ to the children in the hospital. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Because that is as good as the mother's milk. *Prabhupāda: Everything has got his use, but still, go*-kharaḥ is go-kharaḥ. Dr. Patel: This is also creation of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And useful. Prabhupāda: No, useful. Dr. Patel: Nothing, nothing which is not in... Prabhupāda: No, useful, that's all right. Again your coming to this, "Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa." That is not conclusion. Dr. Patel: No, I did not say everything is again. You are misinterpreting me before these boys. Prabhupāda: No, you'll come to that. Dr. Patel: I don't come to that. I say everything is made by Kṛṣṇa which is useful. Nothing... It is not useful is made by Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are pūrṇasya, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. Pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idam [Iso Invocation]. Everything created by Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. He does not create anything useless. Just like this sea water is salty. Why it is salty? If it is not salty, then it cannot be preserved. Therefore it is salty. You have to take water. But it is made salty. The process is... It is distilled by the sun, and then you are supplied. Just see how perfectly it is done. It is put onto the top of the hills, and it comes as river. This is God's creation. Bhāgavata: Complete. Prabhupāda: Complete, yes. Complete... Complete intelligence. Bhāgavata: But we make it incomplete. Dr. Patel: How can you make anything incomplete. You have no power to... [break] Prabhupāda: ...instruction from the Complete, Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: So don't say "we." We are nothing. Prabhupāda: We take instruction from the Complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. [break] ...pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you are saying that? Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still, He's Kṛṣṇa. He's not impersonal. The Māyāvādī says, "Because Kṛṣṇa has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is finished." Because this is Māyāvāda. "Because Kṛṣṇa has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda philosophy. But the *Upaniṣads* say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: But even Bhāgavata says that even though He was born as an embodied, He was still so in His eternal place there. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is pūrṇa. It does not mean... Just like īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. "And still, don't think that I am there." *Dr. Patel: Avyakta*-mūrtinā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Avyakta*-mūrtinā. That is avyakta. His impersonal feature is avyakta. But His personal feature is vyakta. Dr. Patel: His personal feature is in Goloka. *Prabhupāda: No. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He's always existing in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He's everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Mākhanalāl: There was that one notable, so*-called incarnation. He supposedly lost all his potency be... Prabhupāda: Eh? Mākhanalāl: He said he gave away all his potency... Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. What potency he has got? Dr. Patel: Who? Prabhupāda: Any rascal who has called himself incarnation of God. There are so many rascals. Mākhanalāl: Wasn't that Ramakrishna who said he gave away everything; he had nothing more except... Prabhupāda: What Ramakrishna? Don't talk of these nonsense. Simply they have misled. That's all. Dr. Patel: Simply you bhaja Kṛṣṇa and don't think anything else. And you get all your intelligence there. Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has said, mām ekam. "Don't go to these foolish rascals." Mām ekam. Otherwise you'll be misled. Because they are misleaders, rascals. Dr. Patel: You are so very hard. Prabhupāda: I must be hard! Dr. Patel: Hard, harsh, and hard and harsh... Prabhupāda: The whole world is spoiled for these Māyāvādīs. Therefore I am very much hard. Dr. Patel: What... I don't say hard. Hard and harsh... Prabhupāda: No, we must be harder and harder. Dr. Patel: Hard and harsh! Doesn't matter... Prabhupāda: I don't make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I never made that. Even if I don't get any disciples, I'll be satisfied. But I can't make any compromise like these rascals. I cannot make. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasrasaḥ. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don't want many stars. That was my Guru Mahārāja's principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. [break] Guest (3): Do you mean the other persons...? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Own one who cannot understand rightly. That is another rascaldom. Dr. Patel: Understanding God is always supraconscious with them. Never by the mind. Prabhupāda: They... One has to rise, rise... understand rightly from the right person. He cannot. He's imperfect. How he can understand rightly? Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): But to reach that place there are several ways. *Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, tattva*-darśinaḥ. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru. Guest (3): And with a clean slate. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (3): With a clean slate of his mind. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Samit*-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission. Prabhupāda: Submission. Because... Dr. Patel: And inquiry also. Prabhupāda: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool. Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated Prabhupāda: Yes. But the westerners are not that. [break] ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many western men. Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose..., Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Inquiring of anything and every... Prabhupāda: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited. Dr. Patel: That is how... Even we have seen inquiring so intelligently. That man was such a big mathematical genius... [break] Prabhupāda: Knowledge cannot be acquired by challenge. Knowledge is acquired by submission. That is the process. Dr. Patel: But I don't think I am challenging you. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are taking? Dr. Patel: I am fixing the aruṇi (?) with another aruṇi. So you tell these boys I'm not challenging you. Prabhupāda: No, no. I am talking of the process, not of you personally. Yes. Dr. Patel: Otherwise these people will go away with an idea that I am here to challenge you. Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest (3): Nobody can challenge anybody. A Vaiṣṇava... [break] Prabhupāda: ...thing is to be done submissively, praṇipātena. Two things. Inquiry must be guided by two things: submission and sevā. *Dr. Patel: First, according to Bhagavad*-gītā, most importance is śraddhā... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...jñānam. So that is the beginning. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgaḥ. Atha bhajana-kriyā. These are the step by step. Atha anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktis tato bhāvas sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the krama. Krama-pāṭha. Everything is there in our Vedic literature. One has to study cool-headed, and he'll get the things. [break] ...ment of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or spiritual consciousness is based on śraddhā. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. If one actually has śraddhā, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa says like this, then I'll accept Kṛṣṇa." That is śraddhā. "Kṛṣṇa says... Oh, Kṛṣṇa says like this. Why shall I surrender to Him?" That is not śraddhā. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. If one accepts this principle, then there is śraddhā. That is explained by Caitanya-caritāmṛta (indistinct): Dr. Patel: I... Shall I ask you one thing? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] As soon as... Dr. Patel: What are the pāpas and what are the puṇyas? Prabhupāda: Pāpa means so long you accept this material body. Dr. Patel: Is pāpa. Prabhupāda: Is pāpa. Either you accept as, a material body as Brahmā or as insignificant ant, it is pāpa. Dr. Patel: Anything is pāpa. Anything is pāpa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is pāpa. *Prabhupāda: Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately. Dr. Patel: And that is pāpa. Prabhupāda: That is pāpa. Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is pāpa. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: That is what I could not understand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Anything means this is also: Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender," and if I do not surrender, that is pāpa. (sound of kīrtana in background, approaching temple) Guest (5) (Indian man): But serving to poor is serving the whole... Prabhupāda: (laughs) Again that disease. It has become a disease. Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Is that called puṇya? Prabhupāda: No, no. Guest (5): Serving the poor? Prabhupāda: What is the use of your serving poor? Are you serving the poor? Why do you talk like that? Guest (5): I want to ask you. Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, are you serving the poor? Guest (5): Yes, sir. I am a doctor. And we see only poverty. So I want to ask. Prabhupāda: Then, then every... So every patient is a poor, and every doctor is puṇyavān. Dr. Patel: Ha, every doctor is a fool. Like me. Guest (5): No, I want to ask you. Swamiji... Dr. Patel: Swami, Swami answered. *Prabhupāda: This has become a slogan, "Serving the poor." Where is the śāstra? Where Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, "Serving the poor?" Guest (5): It doesn't say. No, I know. But... Prabhupāda: You are yourself poor. How you can serve? (laughter) Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) Guest (5): No. Yes, I want to ask. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That's all right. We should... First of all, we should know that "I am the poorest of the poor." Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: So first of all let me become rich. Then I shall serve. (pause) [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa beat. (sound of kīrtana in background) People will come and hear Hare Kṛṣṇa. This slogan has spread, "If I serve the poor..." And what you have got, you will serve the poor? You have to work like an ass to earn your livelihood, and you are going to serve the poor. Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) What is meant by service? Prabhupāda: No, and the poor cannot be served. Service, service to be rendered to the higher authority. Guest (3): By serving poor, you are serving yourself. Prabhupāda: No, serving nobody. Now, Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission... Just hear, doctor. Ah. Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission, when I went to America, I met him. He said that "The Americans are asking that 'You take money from us for serving the poor.' But when we go to India, we simply see poor men are lying on the footpath. So what you are doing with this money?" You see? This is a plea for collection of money, "to serve the poor." What... [break] Yes. I know in America there are so many foundations. You see? And there are so many cheats also. They found a society. And the managers of the foundations, they have got plea, and they get out all the money. I have seen. Who was that? That Mr. Bogus? No, Bogart. Bogart. I used to call him "Mr. Bogus." (laughter) Dr. Patel: Americans are very clever at using money. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature all lies. The subject matter is India. "Oh, so many people are starving, so many..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves. Dr. Patel: They are the (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bhava*-bhūti: Also, Prabhupāda, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising. Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I understand. Dr. Patel: Psychology. Prabhupāda: That I understand. Dr. Patel: And they really are purely running away without... They have no peace of mind.[break] Prabhupāda: The other day one American devotee, he said, "Sir, I see..." He first came, "I see the poorest man here is happier than the richest man in my country." He said like that. Dr. Patel: Because they have got no peace of mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And every... Prabhupāda: And that is... [break] Dr. Patel: This, any act of competition is a sin and a violence against... Prabhupāda: [break] ...competition even Kṛṣṇa. Krishnamurti's competition even Kṛṣṇa. You know that? Dr. Patel: No, I didn't know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Krishnamurti, I read a couple of books. He said that nothing, everything... Prabhupāda: Does he say anything about Kṛṣṇa? Dr. Patel: Yes, he does say. Prabhupāda: What does he say? Dr. Patel: He says the Kṛṣṇa's all names are all, God is also His name. Because the God, it is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. What does he say about personal Kṛṣṇa? Does he know anything? Bhāgavata: He said, "You are your own guru," Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Devotee: I have heard him. Prabhupāda: You see? Kṛṣṇa says, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet... [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. He says, "Everyone is guru." Just see. "Everyone is guru." Then why you are instructing? Why you are becoming guru? Dr. Patel: He's not becoming guru of anybody. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why does he say that "You do this"? That is guru. Guru means one who orders. That is guru. That means you reject all other gurus... That means... He means to say that "You reject all other gurus. Accept me guru." That's all. Guest (3): That is not... That is what he... Prabhupāda: That is competition. Guest (3): All gurus are like that. All gurus are like that. *Bhava*-bhūti: . He's writing many books saying "There's no need for books." Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Now see. He says, "There is no need of books." And he writes books, Kṛṣṇa books. Guest (3): Yes. Yes. What you have Bhāgavata: He said, Everything is within you. So you are your own guru and..." Prabhupāda: Just see. Bhāgavata: ...everything will be revealed to you." Dr. Patel: It may be within him, all right. He must drag it out. Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, just see how he is making nonsense competition. Guest (3): Vaśārambhaṇam. (?) Prabhupāda: Vaśārambhaṇam. Dr. Patel: Vaśārambhaṇaṁ caro nāmadheyam (?). [break] Prabhupāda: He's writing books, and he says, "There is no need of books." Guest (3): He has written so many books, not one. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...nonsense. Directly. You, that... Our, our criterion is, because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Kṛṣṇa says, *Dr. Patel: Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām... Prabhupāda: Ah. Dr. Patel: I think we are of one of those four categories. Or we are also mūḍha? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: No. At least, give us some claim. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: You are, you are catur*-vidhā. Guest (3): Arthārthī. Prabhupāda: Not arthārthī. Jñānī. No, I must give the proper position. Jñānī... Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the maṅgala-ārati? This is the proof. Dr. Patel: That is, we are, we are brought up like that from our... Prabhupāda: That is, that means you are pious. Guest (3): You are pious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Śucīnāṁ sukṛtāṁ gṛhe. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (3): Yoga*-bhraṣṭa... *Dr. Patel: Yoga*-bhraṣṭa... [break] Prabhupāda: Eh? *Mākhanalāl: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so*-called professor, Baba Ramdas. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him. Prabhupāda: But he's talking. Mākhanalāl: Yes. But he's talking. Prabhupāda: He's talking. These are the defects. Dr. Patel: Huh? Prabhupāda: Some rascal has said that "There is no need of talking." But this is also talking, "There is no need of talking." Why he's talking? Dr. Patel: Just a rascal says, "There is no need of cutting." Prabhupāda: No. That is another thing. Mākhanalāl: But he is trying to... [break] Prabhupāda: Sevayā praṇipātena. Sevayā. [break] Dr. Patel: I, I... Do you like it? I have to ask you. Prabhupāda: No. Thank you so much. Dr. Patel: Do you like it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I wear it for you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: All this... How do you like? [break] (kīrtana) (end) Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayor vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane [SB 9.4.18]. This is... Different parts of our senses should be utilized. The first business is to fix up the mind at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. Then engage the tongue in describing the activities of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has acted in so many ways so that we can remember the history of the activities of Kṛṣṇa and discuss it. Vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. Then the legs should be used for going to the temple. Hands should be used for cleansing the temple. Nose should be used for smelling the flowers offered to Kṛṣṇa. Ears should be used for hearing about Kṛṣṇa. In this way if we engage our senses in different activities relating to Kṛṣṇa, that is success of life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. (Hindi) So now you can talk. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] Practical purposes. This land and that water is matter, but we are walking on the land. Can you walk on the water? Dr. Patel: Who is walking? Prabhupāda: Huh? You are walking, I am walking. Dr. Patel: God is walking. Prabhupāda: So so long you are... Dr. Patel: Body is matter. Prabhupāda: ...in the body, so we have to behave duality. (laughter) You cannot say oneness. When you are liberated from the body, that is another thing. For practical purposes... This philosophy was discussed by the mother of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu when He was a child, this philosophy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was given very nice sweetmeats to eat. So instead of eating the sweetmeat, He was eating the dirt. So mother said, "My dear child, why You are eating dirt? I have given You sandeśa." "Mother, what is the difference between this dirt and sandeśa? It is all Brahman." You see? So His mother said, "My dear child, You are all right. Just like this is earth, and there is earthen pot. So if you want to keep water, you cannot throw the water on the ground. You have to take the earthen pot." So this philosophy of oneness and difference was already discussed when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a child. Simultaneously one and different. Yes. Earthen pot and earth, actually, from the material point of view, they're the same thing. But if you want to keep water you cannot keep it on the ground. You have to take to the jug. (Hindi) [break] Dr. Patel: I promise you I won't. Because you are trying to choke me. Prabhupāda: No, I am not... We should have discussion. That is nice. Dr. Patel: Shall we? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Under your command? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: All right. Mayādhyakṣeṇa... Prabhupāda: Dr. Patel: That means...? *Prabhupāda: "Because of My direction." Hetunānena. "On this account." Mayādhyakṣeṇa. "Under My Supreme control." Just like these boys and girls, my students, they are working under my direction. They are individuals, I am also individual. And they have got their independence, to obey or not to obey, but still, they are directed under my supervision. Similarly, this material nature has got individual power. Sṛṣṭi*-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā [Bs. 5.44]. But still, yasya icchānurūpam api ceṣṭate sā. That material nature is working under the direction of the Supreme Person. Therefore govindam ādi-puruṣam. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: We call him Baby. He is innocent like a baby. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very good qualification. But sometimes babies are misled. [break] Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhiṁ labhate parām. Dr. Patel: So, now let us surrender. Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Prabhupāda: Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Yena, that is person. Yena. That is not imperson. That is person. Is it not? Guest (1) (Indian man): Yes. Dr. Patel: We have to say yes before you. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no. You are a Sanskrit scholar. Dr. Patel: I am not. I have just very little Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: No, no. Yena, this word means person. Yena. This is person. Dr. Patel: Both imperson and person. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ. Now that girl, the doctor lady, you choked the other day in the morning, she, poor thing wanted that "I am practicing the medicine and serving people," and you call her a fool, "You are a damn fool." Well, she's doing the... Prabhupāda: She is not serving. She's serving her... Everyone is serving money, money. Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati... Prabhupāda: That's all right. This serving, everyone is serving. Unless he pays, no service. That is not service. Guest (1): If we expect payment... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, service, Kṛṣṇa is... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Do you want to throw it up in the sea? Prabhupāda: No, no. It is, everyone in this material world, serving somebody. Serving somebody. Because he is servant. Dr. Patel: He's serving somebody or everybody. More or less it is... Prabhupāda: No, no. No. Everybody or somebody. "Everyone's servant is nobody's servant." That is an English proverb. Anyway, this service is required. You cannot live without serving. That is not possible. Anyone of us, serving somebody. But the result is, this material service... I have given several times the example that Mahatma Gandhi, he gave so much service. But result was he was killed. He was killed. Nobody thought... That person did not think that, "Oh, this gentleman, old man, he has given so much service to us. Suppose I do not agree with him. Oh, how can I kill?" So people are so much ingrateful. You see? That whatever service you may render, they'll never be satisfied. Dr. Patel: That service was svakarmaṇā, the karma... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all I am describing the service, what is service. Service means a servant, a master. And the transaction between the master and the servant is called service. Try to understand what is service. So we have created so many masters. The wife master, the family master, the country master, the legislative master, this master, that master. You see? And you are giving service. "Oh, it is my duty. I am giving service." But ask anybody if you are satisfied? He'll say, "What you have done?" Guest (1): He won't be satisfied. Prabhupāda: No. They'll never be satisfied. Kāmādi... But this service is service to my kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. I am giving service to my wife because she satisfies me by sense gratification. Therefore I'm not giving service to my wife, but I'm giving service to my senses. So ultimately, we are servant of the senses. We are nobody's servants. This is our material position. Yes. Ultimately, we are servant of our senses. Guest (1): Or we are the servant of our ego. *Prabhupāda: So the position is constitutionally I am servant, but at the present moment, being conditioned by the material nature, I am giving service to my senses. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if I give service to the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa... Because senses, they are not independent. They are also dependent. Suppose I am now moving my hands, but if the master of my hand, Kṛṣṇa, paralyzes it, no more moving. Neither I can renovate the moving capacity of my hand. Therefore I am not master. Although I am claiming I am master of my hand, master of my leg, but actually I am not. The master is different. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Therefore the service should be transferred. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. We have engaged our senses for different purposes, but when we engage our senses for the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti. Bhakti is also service, but it is not service to the senses, but it is service to the master of the senses. This is bhakti. So constitutionally I am servant. I cannot become master. I have to serve. So if I don't serve the master of the senses, then I will have to serve the senses. This is our position. Dr. Patel: I was... I wanted a little exposition on this, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svakarmaṇā. Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā. Now the karma of a man... I will speak for the while, huh? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, (etc.) Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra whether he's a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha. That karma. And that karma when he does without any expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ. Prabhupāda: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Kṛṣṇa. Give the result to Kṛṣṇa. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Kṛṣṇa. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word, tam. Tam abhyarcya. Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, karmaṇā. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: How can you (indistinct) this is a karma? That is why I want to know. Prabhupāda: No, karma. Dr. Patel: Karmaṇā abhyarcya. *Prabhupāda: Karma, karmaṇā, by your work. Just like you are working as a medical practitioner. So you earn lakhs of rupees. Give to Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. Then you become perfect. That is also confirmed in Bhāgavata. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ. We have already explained that our karma, according to varṇa and āśrama... Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama*-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone is working according to varṇa and āśrama. So svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Anyone who is serving according to his dharma, an engineer, a doctor, or somebody else, according to his occupational duty he is serving. But he has to see, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate. It is Gītā. And it is said, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhiḥ, perfection. What is that? Hari-toṣaṇam. We have to see whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. So you earn lakhs of rupees and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa said yat karoṣi, "Never mind what you are doing," kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam, "give Me it." (laughter) And "No, no, no, sir. I'm serving You, but the money is in my pocket." Dr. Patel: Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. How can you give anything? Even a leaf? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Just like these boys and girls are giving. Oh, that is the philosophy. These boys, girls, they are giving everything. Whole life. Whole life. They have no... They do not ask even a single payasā from me that "My dear sir, please give me four ānās. I'll go to the cinema." You see? They are serving. Everything they have given. This boy, you like this Girirāja. He's earning at least 50,000 per month. Not a single payasā, even fifty n.p. he does not keep. This is service. They are not poor. They're earning, but everything for Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Girirāja, how you are earning fifty thousand rupees a month? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Fifty*-thousand. Because fifty members. Fifty members, eleven hundred rupees. He makes at least two, three members. If some day absent, average fifty. Fifty thousand. Not a single fifty n.p. he keeps. There are many. All, all of them. Not that everyone is earning fifty thousand, but even fifty hundred or fifty payasā, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. And if you divide partially, "Some percentage for Kṛṣṇa, some percentage for my sense gratification," then Kṛṣṇa says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Proportionately. If you have spent cent percent of your energy for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is cent percent for you. And if you have spent one percent for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is one percent for you. Responsive cooperation. (laughter) Yes. This institution has advanced so much all over the world because we have got these boys who have dedicated everything for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it has so quickly advanced all over the world. They do not think of anything of personal. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam [SB 1.2.13]. Kṛṣṇa is also... Huh? Guest (1): What is that saṁsiddhi noun? Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi means perfection. Saṁsiddhiḥ paramaṁ gataḥ. Dr. Patel: What is saṁsiddhi actually? Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi means perfect perfection. Samyak perfection. Dr. Patel: What is perfection? *Prabhupāda: Perfection means you are living entity, you are living entity you are rotting in this material world, get free from this material world, go back to home. That is saṁsiddhi. We are suffering so much on account of being in the material world. Tri*-tāpa-yatana (?), threefold miseries. And everyone is trying to get out of the miseries, but that is not possible in the material world. Therefore you get your spiritual form, and go back to Kṛṣṇa and dance with him. That is saṁsiddhi. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. This is saṁsiddhi. "After giving up this body, no more accepting any more material body." Then, he's zero? No. Mām eti. "He comes to Me, to dance with Me, to play with Me." That is saṁsiddhi. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. When Śukadeva Gosvāmī was describing the cowherds boy playing with Kṛṣṇa, he described, itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā... Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes. And he fell into that... Prabhupāda: Well. Dr. Patel: Well, yes. And those boys came and Kṛṣṇa saved him. Prabhupāda: Daily thousands of cows he was distributing. Dr. Patel: And one day brāhmaṇa's cow was wrongfully given. Prabhupāda: Yes. So these material pious activity is like that. There is risk. There is risk. Dr. Patel: Shall we go back? *Prabhupāda: Ācchā? We shall go a little more? Little more let us go. Kṛta*-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...but you start when there is little light. Not in the darkness. *Dr. Patel: Before we were starting earlier, at quarter to six. Now we are doing at six*-thirty. *Prabhupāda: Not six*-thirty. Dr. Patel: Real pleasure is coming at six. It is really very fine here. Prabhupāda: [break] And they want to come when there is little light. I can come at two o'clock. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday? Prabhupāda: Everyone knows. Dr. Patel: Shall I come Monday at three o'clock and wake you up? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, anytime. I get up at one o'clock. Everyone knows. Dr. Patel: I get up at three o'clock and read. One day I will come into your room. Prabhupāda: So you are late, late like that. Than me. I rise at one o'clock. Dr. Patel: And you go to bed at twelve? Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: Nine o'clock. Prabhupāda: No. I go to bed between ten to eleven. *Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine*-thirty. I must go to bed early. Otherwise, I can't get up. Prabhupāda: All right, let us go. [break] ...dāla, cāpāṭis, (indistinct) brāhmaṇas cook. Dr. Patel: He has a very good cook. That day I don't know how he ran away, or... You striked him, no? Prabhupāda: No, sometimes they smoke bidis. That is the difficulty. Indian (2): That is not in the presence of the kitchen itself, but outside. Dr. Patel: They do all sorts of nonsense. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. Dr. Patel: If we don't allow them, they do it. Prabhupāda: And they will drink tea, smoke. Dr. Patel: They always drink tea, all the cooks. They won't like... Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty with us. We do not want to set such bad examples. [break] ...Hindu system is very hygienic. Yes. Dr. Patel: Extremely hygienic. The W.C.'s also. Prabhupāda: Everything. Dr. Patel: They must be kept extremely clean or some of the diseases, you must have (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: These European, American boys, they gave up their smoking habit, drinking tea habit, all habits, meat*-eating, immediately. But if we ask any Indian, he has to consider for three generations. Dr. Patel: That is because they have been so trained from childhood. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They have been trained so (indistinct) from childhood, meat*-eating, drinking wine, drinking tea, smoking, and illicit sex, but they gave up immediately. Dr. Patel: But in hygiene also they have (indistinct) our way. Prabhupāda: They are observing hygienic principle as far as possible, but only thing is they require little guidance. Dr. Patel: This kitchen behind is too small, hotel, they... Prabhupāda: No. We can make a big kitchen, we have got enough room. Dr. Patel: I told them, maybe away we must have a small room attached to it where these boys can take... [break] (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...I am not this body. Dr. Patel: That's right. So the mosquitos also have no body. Prabhupāda: They tolerate. Actually, they tolerate because they factually think that "I am not this body. Let the mosquito bite my body." Dr. Patel: (laughs) So mosquitos also have no body. Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, deha smṛti nāhi yāra saṁsāra bandhana kaha tāra (?). One who is beyond the conception of bodies, he has no obligation of these material things. Just like there are many sādhus, they simply remain naked body. Even in severe cold. They are practiced. *Dr. Patel: They have reached that avadhūta*-veṣa. *Prabhupāda: So this is also avadhūta*-veṣa. Dr. Patel: But that stage you must reach. Prabhupāda: No, somehow or other, they have gone to some extent. Never mind the mosquito. Let bite. I am not this body." Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have hypnotized them. Prabhupāda: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak how they are chanting and dancing saṅkīrtana? They are not weak at all. (Hindi) [break] "Now let me dance." Then I shall jump over your head." (Patel laughs) This is philosophy. "Now I am dāsa, then I become your master." Dr. Patel: How can you be master when I am nothing? When I am dāsa, then I will be nothing before you. Prabhupāda: That is voidism. You are something. How you are nothing? Dr. Patel: How can you be the master of a master? Prabhupāda: That is not possible, but these Māyāvādīs tries for this. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādīs, they want to become the master. (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: They are Māyāvādī? Dr. Patel: No. They are Vaiṣṇavas. All Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: But they worship... Dr. Patel: They worship Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa and their original... Dr. Patel: Guru. They worship you, don't they? Prabhupāda: No, no. The guru can be worshiped, but... Yaśomatīnandana: They worship guru as God. Dr. Patel: No. God is God. How can... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: They worship guru and God both. Prabhupāda: That is guru. Guru and God... Dr. Patel: And you. You cannot have God without guru. Prabhupāda: And, "Let God go away." Oh, that is not good. That is not good. *Dr. Patel: It is not so. I think somebody has wrongly informed you, sir. And I will get you some comparative literatures to... [break] There are no four*-hand there. There are no... You have wrongly seen and I have wrongly seen. No. That is... Prabhupāda: But you showed me the wrong thing. Dr. Patel: It was not right thing, but we have not seen in the dark. It was right thing, it was Kṛṣṇa's own photograph, and there were no four hands. Prabhupāda: But I saw the picture. The guru has four hands. Dr. Patel: No. We saw it in dark, both of us. And I also wonder... [break] Prabhupāda: ...in a Rāma mandira, but there was no Rāma. Dr. Patel: Yes, Rāma mandiras have all degenerated. Prabhupāda: There was no Rāma. The guru's picture. He's Rāma. Dr. Patel: That is Rāma. All the temples of Sañjaya (?), there is always Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct) there. [break] Prabhupāda: ...(indistinct) What is this? Guest (2) (Indian man): No, no. He is from that sampradāya. [break] They worship God as Swami Nārāyaṇa. My Lord is Nārāyaṇa. Swami means the Lord, and Nārāyaṇa is the Lord. So they say always "Swami Nārāyaṇa, Swami Nārāyaṇa." Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, they chant "Swami Nārāyaṇa, Swami Nārāyaṇa, Swami Nārāyaṇa." The Lord is Nārāyaṇa, God is Nārāyaṇa, God is Nārāyaṇa. So Swami is Nārāyaṇa. You see, actually what did he preach, "Our Swami is Nārāyaṇa." So they have Swami Nārāyaṇa song. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda. Guest (1): That is Māyāvāda, or whatever it may be. Dr. Patel: Everything is Māyāvāda. Guest (2): Oh, Lord is Nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: As soon as we say, "Our Swami is Nārāyaṇa," it is Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: It is not that. It is... What he says is not right. Guest (1): No, that is, I understand. I have not... Dr. Patel: You read all the magazines that I have read. He accepts... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Vivekananda has done: daridra*-nārāyaṇa. Here is "Swami Nārāyaṇa." Dr. Patel: That is different also. You don't put up two together. Prabhupāda: No, no. Same thing. Another... Dr. Patel: Don't get excited or it will be... Prabhupāda: No, no. I'm not getting excited. You are getting. Guest (1): You also don't get excited. Dr. Patel: I am not getting excited, but it's not that. I will really bring you the real... *Prabhupāda: No, no. I am asking what is the difference between this daridra*-nārāyaṇa and Swami Nārāyaṇa? That I am asking. Dr. Patel: See, he actually went to Badrinath. When we call Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, as our Lord, how is it Māyāvāda? How it comes into Māyāvādī? *Prabhupāda: That is explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Guru is accepted as good as God. Haritvena samasta-śāstraiḥ. Saba-śāstra. Dr. Patel: In all śāstras. *Prabhupāda: Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **, it is said. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. And this principle is accepted by great saintly persons. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. He's not one with the Prabhu, but he's very dear servant of Prabhu. Dr. Patel: That is right. Prabhupāda: That conception is Vaiṣṇavism. And as soon as you simply say that "He is God," that is Māyāvāda. Guest (2): Yes but we are not... But he has wrongly... Guest (1): No, Swami Nārāyaṇa, what I told you the principle of Swami Nārāyaṇa is that... Guest (2): Swami Nārāyaṇa... Dr. Patel: You have no right to speak. Guest (1): No, no. What I understand about this... Dr. Patel: There are three schools of Vaiṣṇavism. But that... In that school, the preaching and everything in the worship is the same, more or less. Prabhupāda: [break] The thing is... This is the conclusion, that guru may be worshiped as Kṛṣṇa, but the worshiper knows that "I am worshiping my guru not because he has become Kṛṣṇa, but he is the most confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is Vaiṣṇava. Dr. Patel: All the Vaiṣṇavas, what he has said. Every time he has said the same thing. *Prabhupāda: This is the difference between Vaiṣṇava school and Māyāvādī school. Advaita*-vāda and dvaita-vāda. They become very strong, at the same time, remain servant. *Dr. Patel: These śuddhādvaita*-vādīs, their upper garment and lower garment the same as... [break] ...you call Māyāvādīs, they say that this is all humbug and nothing and nonexistence. They... [break] ...both are one and both are right and both are existent and both are... There is no illusion, as you say. The same thing. Prabhupāda: Simultaneously one and different. Dr. Patel: That is a little (indistinct) Prabhupāda: So unless you accept this difference, then it is Māyāvāda. Simply oneness is Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: That's right. You may... You accept one and the same, separate both or another explana..., another, only Kṛṣṇa knows and nobody knows. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, why Kṛṣṇa knows? One who is Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he knows also. Dr. Patel: All are Vaiṣṇava devotees, aren't they? Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda. Not all of. Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Vallabhācārya's devotees, Vaiṣṇavas are not...? Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya is a sampradāya. Dr. Patel: But are they not Vaiṣṇavas? *Prabhupāda: That is a sampradāya. Viṣṇu Svāmī*-sampradāya. That is accepted. That is accepted. Dr. Patel: Rāmānujācārya's Vaiṣṇava was not Vaiṣṇava? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Dr. Patel: Then why do you say so? They are all Vaiṣṇavas but... Prabhupāda: But Rāmānujācārya does not say that the devotee is God. Dr. Patel: Nobody says so. *Prabhupāda: No. [break] ...oneness with diversity. Yes. That is viśiṣṭādvaita philosophy. And nirviśeṣa. Nirviśiṣṭa*-advaitavādī sāṅkhya philosophy. Nirviśiṣṭa. Guest (1): Nirviśiṣṭa means? Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya. Prabhupāda: Nirviśiṣṭa means... No, Vallabhācārya... śuddhādvaita. Śuddhādvaita. That is called kevalādvaita. Kevalādvaita. [break] Kṛṣṇa is ādi. Viṣṇu is in the material world, He's accepted as one of the devas. Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Guest (1): So Kṛṣṇa is ādi of Viṣṇu... Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu also. *Dr. Patel: Mahā*-Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No Mahā*-Viṣṇu is ādi. Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā-viśeṣa, partial exhibition of Kṛṣṇa. That is said in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśesaḥ [Bs. 5.48]. This Mahā-Viṣṇu, from whose breathing innumerable universes are coming, that Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā-viśeṣa. *Devotee: That was found by Lord Caitanya, Prabhupāda? The Brahma*-saṁhitā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of the manuscripts were found in South India and He brought it and He delivered, that "This is authoritative." Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact, the Vaiṣṇavism started from South India. Prabhupāda: Even Śaṅkara was also South India. Dr. Patel: Cult of Vaiṣṇavism started from South India. Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, they came from South India. Dr. Patel: They are more religious. Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya also South India. Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya is from North, no? Prabhupāda: South India. [break] Dr. Patel: And the worst damn... [break] Prabhupāda: ...beaches. The sand is like this. Not like that. Dr. Patel: Like this. Prabhupāda: Yes. This soft sand. But not walking, all sand. This Juhu Beach is specially nice. Dr. Patel: Made for us. (laughs) [break] Prabhupāda: ...kingdom, the Maharastrian brāhmaṇas, they were more staunch. Dr. Patel: They did not serve Muslims, like brāhmaṇas who are from Bengal and Gujarat. Gujarati brāhmaṇas and Bengali brāhmaṇas served the Muslims... Prabhupāda: Brahminical culture. Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was also brāhmaṇa, but because he served the Mohammedans, he was rejected from the brāhmaṇa society. Then Kṛṣṇa, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu, raised them to the position of gosvāmīs. Their name was also changed. Dabir Khas. Dr. Patel: Muslim name. Prabhupāda: Yes, Muslim name. Dr. Patel: But here in Gujarat we have got so many brāhmaṇas and... [break] Prabhupāda: ...magistrates. Dr. Patel: Ah, but then these are Muslim brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: So it is Muslim name. Their forefathers were magistrates. That's all. Kāzi, there is no harm... Munshi, Kāzi. They're common... [break] If you go to anyone, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," they'll understand: "Here is Hare Kṛṣṇa people." That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Anywhere, Africa, Australia, Japan, they know, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." We are known as "Hare Kṛṣṇa people." So there are so many apartments... (end) Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay Satsvarūpa: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] Prabhupāda: ...janmāni tava cārjuna. Guest (1) (Indian man): Tāny ahaṁ veda sarvāṇi. Prabhupāda: Why it is? That is my question. [break] Guest (1): God is the knower everywhere. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): He's there every time. Bhūtvā bhāvyo bhavat prabhuḥ (?). God was in the past, present. He's ev... He is in the past, as well as present, in the future. There is no question of... Prabhupāda: No, no. I was also. I am also nitya. Guest (1): No, we are not nitya. Prabhupāda: God is nityo nityānām. Guest (1): I mean... Nityānām. But we are jīva. As long as I am jīva. I don't... *Prabhupāda: Ah, then dvaita*-vāda. Then dvaita-vāda. *Guest (1): Dvaita*-vāda has to come. As long as you're in the body, you are dvaita. You cannot say when you are in the body that you are the God. Prabhupāda: No, no. We are always dvaita. Guest (1): As long as you are in the body, if you have got the body consciousness, then you're always in dvaita. Prabhupāda: No, no. Body, body, body is... Guest (1): No, what I mean, Swamiji... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): I have got a body consciousness, that I am the body. I am shawl (?). Then I am dvaita, and I should be your servant. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): And I cannot say that I am the Lord. But if... Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): ...I forget completely body consciousness... Prabhupāda: Body consciousness, that is ignorance. That is... Just like you are dressed with this shirt. If you think that you are shirt, that is your ignorance. Guest (1): Body consciousness... Prabhupāda: Just first of all try to understand. Guest (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: If you think that you are a shirt, that is ignorance, gross ignorance. Guest (1): That's right, correct. Prabhupāda: And if I have got this shawl, if I am thinking, "I am shawl," that is my ignorance. But either shawl or shirt, we are all individuals. That is (indistinct) This, this is ignorance. But ignorance or knowledge, we are all individual. Guest (1): Body consciousness is not, I mean it is... Suppose somebody insults me. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guest (1): Suppose somebody insults a God*-minded person, and the God-minded person thinks, "Well, he's not insul..., he's insulting this body, and not the living entity in me." That means he has lost the body consciousness. Suppose if beats with a stick, and he goes... Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that is ignorance. I have already explained. Guest (1): But I feel it is not ignorance... Prabhupāda: Ignorance... Guest (1): It is, if he feels in the true sense... Prabhupāda: No, my point is, either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, you are individual. [break] ...have to, so why so long? Guest (1): Yes, here, here is... We have to walk quickly there. Dr. Patel: But we thought you would come late, so we went there. Guest (1): So you have lost some... [break] Guest (2) (Indian man): ...paripraśnena sevayā... [break] Prabhupāda: Either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, both cases you are individual. Guest (1): In knowledge also we are individual? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): How? Prabhupāda: Knowledge means... Dr. Patel: Knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge means knowledge of yourself. When you are actually in knowledge, then you will surrender to Kṛṣṇa... Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is knowledge. So long you do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are in ignorance. Now, in ignorance, in ignorance I am surrendering to my wife, and in knowledge I'll have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Correct. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest (1): Both the times we are individuals. In both the times we are individuals. Correct. Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. Guest (1): Nityaḥ anityānām. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Some people say nityaḥ anityānām also. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: Nityaḥ anityānām some also say. Nityo 'nityānāṁ cetanaś... Prabhupāda: Who... One who says anitya, he's a rascal. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Take that. Prabhupāda: I, I say you. How, how the jīvas can be anitya? Dr. Patel: No, it cannot be. Prabhupāda: Then nitya. Dr. Patel: No, they mean, anitya means all the matter. Nitya in the matter. Guest (1): Temporary, effervescent. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: Nitya in the matter, in the form of... Prabhupāda: As soon as they say anitya, then they are duality. There is no oneness. Dr. Patel: So I have read both the type of acclamation (?), nitya and anitya. Prabhupāda: No, then... One who says anitya... Anitya... Dr. Patel: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Prabhupāda: Yes! Dr. Patel: Yo vidadhāti... Prabhupāda: Eko yo bahūnām. Dr. Patel: Eko yo bahūnām. Prabhupāda: Vidadhāti kāmān. Guest (1): ...vidadhāti kāmān, tam ātmānam evānupaśyanti dhīras... netareśam (?). *Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. That means we, jīva, we are plural number, and the Supreme Lord is singular number. So what is the difference? The difference is that eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That bahu*-vacana, nityānām, they are maintained by the singular number. Dr. Patel: Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. He is only one. But He is, I mean, fulfilling their... This is so many, all. Because He actually... Prabhupāda: He is feeding everyone. He is feeding His devotee, as well as nondevotees. The nondevotees are also provided by God. The nondevotees, they are not independent. They are also dependent. But they do not acknowledge. Guest (1): They don't understand. Prabhupāda: Just like the prisoners. They are also maintained by government. And those who are not prisoners, they are also maintained by government. The prisoners are outlaw. They do not recognize the government. That is prisoner, criminals. But both of them are provided by the government. And so far individuality is concerned, that is mentioned in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa said that "You, Me, and all these soldiers and kings, they were before existing like this, they're existing now like this, and they'll continue to exist." So individuality's always. Kṛṣṇa never said that "After this, we shall become a homogeneous mass." Never says. Individual. Guest (1): Just as the bees gather honey from different trees... Prabhupāda: Yes, they keep their individuality. Guest (1): ...and when the whole mass comes from, each small particle of honey does not know that he's from a particular tree, like that, he becomes... After the whole thing he gets, what do you call? The deluge. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Those, the collector, they remain individual, after and before. And while on the beehive. Always individual. That is the point. When they begin collecting honey, they're individual. And after collecting, when they make a beehive, they're individual. Or when they're sitting on the beehive, they're individual. Eternal. This is eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). [break] So what is that? Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ? Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Karṣati. *Dr. Patel: Prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti yac cāpy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ... Prabhupāda: So... So they... Śarīram, śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. They get different bodies. But they're individuals. They're individuals. Dr. Patel: They are individuals till there is a salvation. And after, they are... Prabhupāda: No, salvation means when they have ceased to accept the material body. That is salvation. Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. So avāpnoti means it was not, in the spiritual body there was no such thing, but they accept this material body. *Dr. Patel: This morning I read a very good thing from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, from Eleventh... [break] Prabhupāda: ...every day say. Every day say. Every day I say that. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Guest (1): (Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupāda: ...we are servant. That I have explained several times. Yesterday also I explained. That, our constitutional position as servant, cannot be changed. Just like śūdra, servant. What is called here? The servant class? Dr. Patel: Śūdra. Prabhupāda: What do they say? Dr. Patel: They cannot work for me. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: Servants. Prabhupāda: The domestic servants. What do you call? Ramaya (?), servants. Guest (1): Rāma, rāma, rāma, rāma. Dr. Patel: He's really Rāma. (laughter) *Guest (1): No, but I have read in Manu*-smṛti that all these śūdras also, after the age of forty years, they come to the stage of brāhmaṇas. I don't know how. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no bar. One may be... One may be uneducated now. He can be educated. Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. After forty years of age. Prabhupāda: No, no. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya... Dr. Patel: Because he, by his own action, becomes brāhmaṇa because he does the service of the Lord. Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone who is engaged in the arcanā of the Supreme, he's neither of these: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. He is Brahman, he has realized Brahman. *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-bhuto 'bhijāyate. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is no more śūdra or brāhmaṇa. In the material world, even if you become a brāhmaṇa, that is not a very good position. That is māyā: "I am brāhmaṇa." Dr. Patel: But a sannyāsīs are also from the varṇāśrama. *Prabhupāda: They are also. They are also. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has denied: "I am not a sannyāsī, I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya, none of these." He said, gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. "I am the servant of the servant of Gopī-bhartuḥ." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's identification. So those who are actually in the, engaged in the service of the Lord, they are beyond, transcendental to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... Yes. Dr. Patel: Nāham... Guest (1): (Sanskrit) [break] Dr. Patel: That is not Māyāvādī. That is not Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: That is... That is... That is not. I don't... If I say "I am not Indian, I am not American. I am Brahman," that is not Māyāvāda. Guest (1): That is not Māyāvāda. Prabhupāda: Because I am Brahman actually. Dr. Patel: Enveloped for a day. Prabhupāda: But... Guest (1): Mano, buddhi, ahaṅkāra, (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I do not belong to any of these material things. Dr. Patel: Cidānanda aham. *Prabhupāda: That is not Māyāvāda. But the Śaṅkarācārya's interpretation is that ghaṭākāśa*-potakasa (?), ghaṭākāśa-potakasa (?). Just like within the pot there is ākāśa. And outside the ākāśa, outside the pot, there is ākāśa. When the pot is broken, both the ākāśa becomes one. Guest (1): One, yes. Prabhupāda: That is his theory. Guest (1): That is his theory. That is my... Prabhupāda: But he does not accept that individuality. Guest (1): Ghaṭākāśa is not... Ghaṭākāśa is not... Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: If he does not... (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Eh? No... Dr. Patel: There is only one ākāśa. There cannot be multiple ākāśas. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Dr. Patel: Even in the pot or anywhere. Prabhupāda: That I... That you cannot compare. Therefore I say that everyone is individual. Guest (1): As long as ghaṭa is there, there is a ghaṭākāśa. Prabhupāda: That, within the ghaṭa, that cannot be compared. The analogy's wrong. Within the ghaṭa the ākāśa, that is not individual. Dr. Patel: That's what I say. Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are individual. Guest (1): That is individual, sir. As long as ghaṭa is there, you are individual ākāśa. That is correct. Dr. Patel: These, all these analogies are nirdeśas. Nothing can explain or nothing can describe Brahman, beyond the reach of the mind and the tongue and the all the intelligence of a man. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Therefore tad viddhi praṇi... upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva*-darśinaḥ. The tattva-darśī can. *Guest (1): Tattva*-darśī can only do it. Prabhupāda: One who is blind, one who is blind, one who is blind, he cannot. Dr. Patel: That's right. What about the... Prabhupāda: You cannot... You do not go to a blind man. Therefore it is said, tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. Where you shall surrender? You are blind. If you surrender to a blind man, what is the benefit? Dr. Patel: Who surrenders there, you also surrender. Not the body... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, try to understand. You can surrender to a person when you think that "This person is..." Guest (1): Good. Prabhupāda: "...better than me." Guest (1): He has realized it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru. Guru means he is heavier than you. Guest (1): Heavier. Correct, correct. Prabhupāda: So otherwise, where is the question of surrender? Nobody wants to surrender. Dr. Patel: But the heavier, everyone... Prabhupāda: Heavier means in knowledge. Dr. Patel: According to the law of Newton also, heavy articles attract the light articles. You are heavier... Prabhupāda: No, Newton was a rascal. You know Newton was a rascal? Dr. Patel: I am also one. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Newton was a rascal. He made two holes in the door. And one friend came, "Why you have made these two holes in your door?" He said, "There are two cats, bigger and the smaller. So let them go out." So he asked, "With the bigger hole the smaller cannot go?" "Yes, yes. You are right." (laughter) Any conditioned soul, he may be Newton or this or that, they are all rascals. Dr. Patel: No, but some of the highest... I mean... Prabhupāda: No, nobody is highest. Because everyone, everyone is in ignorance. Dr. Patel: Ignorance is right, but... Prabhupāda: Therefore rascals! Dr. Patel: Though their knowledge is ignorance, it is that, Brahman knowledge is right. Prabhupāda: So therefore you have to... Therefore the indication is tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā... [Bg. 4.34]. You should go and take knowledge. Dr. Patel: But I talk of the Einstein. Einstein, somebody asked Einstein... Prabhupāda: Anyone... Dr. Patel: "Do you believe in God?" He said, "How can you not believe in God? God is everywhere, and I feel the presence of it." That is the real scientist. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Not the other fellows who say there is no God and all these things are atoms and all... Prabhupāda: But still, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Dr. Patel: That is... That is... Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. That is ignorance. Dr. Patel: ...ignorance of God! That means there will be a quarrel between us two. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: Sir..., Prabhupāda: As soon as he does not know Kṛṣṇa, he is ignorant. Therefore it will take time. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. When actually he becomes a man in knowledge, then he surrenders. So so long one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's a fool. And that is our definition. Now, Mr. Sar(?), I am right or wrong? Guest (1): You are right, Sir. (laughter) Dr. Patel: Now, even though you may not be right, he will say right because he's very much frightened of your calling him a... What do you call me? Prabhupāda: A mūḍha. (laughter) *Dr. Patel: Well, I'm a vagabond type of man, thick*-skinned. You may call me anything. I don't mind. You see? (Prabhupāda laughs) Guest (1): After all, the views, you see. Everybody is right in his own views. You see. You cannot challenge... After all, the views are given by the God. The jñāna-śakti's from God, from the Almighty, and not your self. [break] Prabhupāda: ...if you are right, Kṛṣṇa said, sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. Guest (1): Ah, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Prabhupāda: So why, why Kṛṣṇa gives you less knowledge and other's more knowledge? Why? Guest (1): Because... Prabhupāda: Is Kṛṣṇa partial? Guest (1): No. As long as you're more conscious, then He gives you more knowledge. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Conscious is not. Because ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. Because the surrender is not full, therefore he's also not fully realized. Guest (1): He's not fully... Correct. Prabhupāda: That is the point. Guest (1): That's correct. *Prabhupāda: Ye yathā mām... That very word, prapadyante. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. So if your surrender is twenty*-five percent, then Kṛṣṇa is realized twenty-five percent. If your surrender is cent percent, then Kṛṣṇa is realized cent percent. Dr. Patel: Can I say the same yathā and tathā: "The way he surrenders, the way I give..." Prabhupāda: That means proportionate. Guest (1): Why proportionate? Why not other way? The way I surrender in the lower knowledge of science is, well, he has given me the knowledge of science. Prabhupāda: Just like... Guest (1): They have given you the knowledge, the higher knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Brahman is Paramātmā, Brahman and Bhagavān. So if you surrender to Brahman, so you realize Brahman. If you surrender to Paramātmā, you realize Paramātmā, and if you surrender to Bhagavān, you realize Bhagavān. Dr. Patel: To the wife, you get the roti. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: If you surrender to the wife, you get the roti. In the morning. (laughs) [break] *Prabhupāda: : ...*-thirty they open. We have to wait. Dr. Patel: You will have to order them to open early. You have the... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Why shall I? Their duty must be finished. You cannot ask God that "You... God... God! Please open. I want to see you." Dr. Patel: Yes. You order God... The, the... Prabhupāda: No, I can order. But that is not my business. Dr. Patel: That is, that is... He understands the word. Even though you don't say by mouth, God understands. He's not... Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not my order to order God. Dr. Patel: No, it is not your order, but your mind He understands immediately that he comes there... Prabhupāda: No, why shall I think like that? Dr. Patel: Because... Prabhupāda: No, that is not bhakti. Dr. Patel: When you are not thinking, the, the thought automatically comes. Prabhupāda: No, that is not bhakti. You cannot think of that "God may do like this." No. Dr. Patel: No, no. God does like that. Why He do? Prabhupāda: No, you say that "You order Kṛṣṇa what you think." Dr. Patel: I don't say you order. You... Automatically He fulfills your desire. There is no question of your ordering. Prabhupāda: Therefore we should be desireless. Dr. Patel: Desireless, yes. But desireless... Prabhupāda: Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. That is bhakti. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Anyābhilāṣitā means "As God desires, let it happen." Not according to my desire. That is bhakti. As soon as you impose your desire, that is not bhakti. Why should you impose your desire? God is ready to fulfill the desire of His devotee immediately. He's so ready. But a devotee never desires. He does not like to bring God to fulfill His desires. No, that is not a pure devotee. Guest (1): But he has surrendered and he feels that "God gives me what we require." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) But now the, now the sun is rising earlier and earlier. That is why. [break] *Prabhupāda: Bhakti, pure bhakti: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. No desire from the part of the devotee. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. What Kṛṣṇa likes, that we should do. Kṛṣṇa likes that you surrender. We should surrender. That's all. That is the beginning of bhakti. If you don't surrender, you keep your individuality, that is not bhakti. Guest (1): There is no bhakti without... Prabhupāda: That is not... Bhakti may be there, but it is not pure cent percent bhakti. Guest (1): It is not pure bhakti. Prabhupāda: Surrendering means you commit the suicide of your ego before Him. Guest (1): No suicide in this. Prabhupāda: No, surrender means surrender. Now you can interpret in a different way. Guest (1): That is my interpretation. Prabhupāda: But why should you interpret? Surrender means you surrender. Guest (1): But what surrender? Not the body... Prabhupāda: No, whatever you have got... Guest (1): Your individuality. Your individuality means your ego. So ego surrendering. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Guest (1): Surrender is embracing the... Prabhupāda: You are not only ego. You are combination of so many things. Dr. Patel: But ego is the master of the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): After all, ego is the president of all aggregate. Prabhupāda: That surrender has been explained by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. He has written a nice song. Mānasa, deho, geho, jo kichu mora. It is very easy to understand. Guest (1): Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: *Guest (1): Nanda*-kiśora. Correct, correct. *Prabhupāda: "Nanda*-kiśora, what I have got? I have got a restless mind and I have got my family, home, wife, children, and this body. This is my possessions. I am not the proprietor of the whole world or universe. But I am pro... I suppose, I think like that, that I have got a mind, think like nonsense and do like nonsense, and I have got this body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender." This is surrender. Don't think anything else, what Kṛṣṇa does not like. That is first surrender. No reservation, that "So much I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and I contemplate like this, like that, like that." That is not surrender. Guest (1): That is not surrender. Guest (2): And what about desires? Prabhupāda: Desire, this is desire. This is desire, that you don't make your desire: "Kṛṣṇa, come. I'll see You." No, don't make that desire. If Kṛṣṇa likes, He will make His, I mean to say, audience before you. A devotee never says that "Kṛṣṇa, please come. I'll see You." Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many songs: "O my dear Kṛṣṇa, please come dancing with Your flute. I will see." These are not devotees' songs. Kṛṣṇa will never say, uh, devotee will never say, order. No more. Dr. Patel: Devotees are... The real devotees are gopīs. *Prabhupāda: Simply he's to carry the order. He's not to make orders. That is devotee. Everyone, in the material world, they worship demigods*-why? Because they can order, "Please give me this. Please give me that." Rūpaṁ dehi, bhāryāṁ dehi, yaśo dehi, this dehi, this dehi, dehi... Therefore they go to demigods. But to Kṛṣṇa he cannot demand. And therefore they do not go; they do not become Vaiṣṇavas. You see? You'll see, all the devotees of Lord Śiva, they demanded something. "My dear Lord Śiva, you are so nice. Please give me this." "What do you want?" "Now, I shall touch anyone's head and head will be cut off." "All right, that's all." These things you cannot get from Kṛṣṇa. These things you cannot get from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore people do not go to Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is a more hard taskmaster. *Prabhupāda: Because He cannot acc... He is God! He cannot accept anyone's order. That is God. If somebody accepts my order, he's not God. He's my servant. Or I make him my servant. That is surrender. No more ordering. God is not order*-supplier. Although He supplies everything, but not... You cannot order. You cannot order. Guest (1): According to His will. Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. He knows what you want. And He's always... Aiye. He knows what is your want. Just like father know what is the want of the child. But the child never orders father, "Give me this." Guest (1): Nowadays, children order. They... Prabhupāda: No, he's simply surrendered to father. He's confident, "My father is there. Everything is all right." Guest (2): Surrender then, that is not even my family, even I myself, I... Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, "My family also I surrender." Guest (2): Then there is no remainder, my family. When I surrender... Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, it is not... You are thinking... It is an illusion. You are illusioned that you are maintaining them. That is an illusion. Guest (1): And illusion is māyā. Prabhupāda: You are not maintaining. You are not maintaining. Just like I am, I am... Dr. Patel: That is you find out. Prabhupāda: No, that... Guest (1): Then what you'll surrender? Prabhupāda: You are individual soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Guest (2): When I say, "I surrender you," what "I" means. Prabhupāda: You are individual soul. Dr. Patel: You are ego. Prabhupāda: Not ego. You are individual soul. Guest (1): Ego is one part of this. Prabhupāda: Ego is another covering. Dr. Patel: Covering of the ego you surrender, then the soul surrenders automatically. Prabhupāda: No, no. Covering... Ego is covering of the pure soul. So you are pure soul. That is ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "I am Brahman. I am not this covering." This covering, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca ahaṅkāra [Bg. 7.4]. These are coverings. Guest (1): They are coverings. Prabhupāda: Material. Even up to ahaṅkāra. Dr. Patel: Saṅghaṭas cetanaṁ dhṛtiḥ (?). *Prabhupāda: That is, that is also material. So... When one realizes that "I am not this. I am pure soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa," that is, that surrender is nice. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati... [Bg. 18.54]. Guest (1): Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu... *Prabhupāda: Mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām [Bg. 18.54]. Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Prabhupāda: Yes, samaḥ means he knows that "All these individual souls, they're all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Guest (1): He's fully abiding in Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So they are, therefore they try, everyone, to bring to Kṛṣṇa. That is service. Dr. Patel: The asamatā is māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: When you consider different... Prabhupāda: So a devotee, therefore, goes everywhere and begs, "Please become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Please become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Dr. Patel: Yesterday, that film arrived? Prabhupāda: Yes? Dr. Patel: I saw it. I saw you dancing also. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. And because I dance, therefore they dance. Dr. Patel: But that was becoming in America, the last part of it? Prabhupāda: No. It was in London. Deity installation. Dr. Patel: He did it very well, the man who edited the film. Prabhupāda: Oh, that Yaduvara. He is very good. Where is Yaduvara? He is here? No. His wife. Yes. She's also... Viśākhā. They are, husband and wife, both of them, very expert, photography. Dr. Patel: I may now solicit one to the, to the māyā, that (Hindi) of the working this. Prabhupāda: What is that? That is not māyā. (break?) Dr. Patel: We are talking on that. Why don't they start it here? Prabhupāda: No, no. Where are men? Dr. Patel: I can get the men. Will you? No, just... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...yukta*-vairāgyam ucyate. Anything which is favorable to our this being Kṛṣṇa conscious, we accept. Dr. Patel: No, we don't want because of factory. Prabhupāda: They are, they are doing that business not for any individual profit. Dr. Patel: No, but for the profit of the temple you can have it. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: No individual profit. Prabhupāda: That we can do. Dr. Patel: We can do it here. I know so many people who, who can... [break] Prabhupāda: Just like we are printing these books. And as soon as we take the bunch of books to any gentleman, he pays immediately, "Eleven hundred. Take it." Better business. You see. First of all I began business of this, simply by giving the *Kṛṣṇa Book*. Dr. Patel: How much money you collected? I am sorry to ask this particular question. Prabhupāda: How many members we have now? *Bhava*-bhūti: Bombay we have... Prabhupāda: All over India. Dr. Patel: All over India. *Bhava*-bhūti: All over India? Well..., [break] *Prabhupāda: ...and people very gladly. "What is this? Bhāgavata? All right." "And we have got six copies." "All right, give me six copies." Like that. And they ask, they get down from their car. As soon as they see our saṅkīrtana party's going, "You have got Swami Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is?" "Yes." "Give me." They ask like that. [break] ...injecting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: Yes. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: That is also required. Then, I mean, tending the cows. You see. We are getting seven hundred pounds milk daily. Dr. Patel: This was in Los Angeles? Prabhupāda: Virginia. Virginia. Different branches in different states. And the school is in Texas, Dallas. There is immense potency of increasing this movement in America. Immense potency. Dr. Patel: In all departments of life you can increase. Even the workers who are... Prabhupāda: No, I say, "Let there be saṅkīrtana in factory." Dr. Patel: That is what I say. That is what I say. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: We will start such a factory and do it, and it will be an ideal for... Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't start. Already the factory is there. Go and teach them. Dr. Patel: Where? In America? Prabhupāda: Any... Here. There are so many factories. Dr. Patel: I will let them come and see. Prabhupāda: If you, actually you are leader, then you induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in the factory. Guest (1): Oh, you'll get great sales. Dr. Patel: Of course, of course. Why not? Why not? Prabhupāda: Whatever factories are already there, you begin chanting there. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) And then let the fellows follow your model. [break] ...small model of ten boys, who will go on chanting [break] Prabhupāda: ...operating surgical: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." Dr. Patel: I am already model. Prabhupāda: That's right. [break] ...coming from the back side. Kṛṣṇa is sometimes white also. Asan Balarāma (?) *Dr. Patel: No, He is white in Kṛta*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Śveta, śveta... Śuklas te tathā rakta idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ. Gargamuni, when he was deliberating on the horoscope of Kṛṣṇa, he said that "This child formerly had three other colors." Śuklas te tathā rakta. Śuklaḥ pītas tathā rakta idānīṁ kṛṣṇa. Śukla means white. *Dr. Patel: He was white in Kṛta*-yuga, in Tretā, He was... Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: That is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: And then he was yellow in Dvāpara. And because now He's born in Kali*-yuga, He's dark. *Guest (1): Not Kali*-yuga. Dvāpara-yuga. Dvāpara-yuga. *Dr. Patel: Dvāpara and Kali*-yuga sandhi. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that means Kṛṣṇa had all the colors. Śuklo raktas tathā pītaḥ. Dr. Patel: Because all the mūrtis, other mūrtis in big, our temples... Just like in Dvaraka... Prabhupāda: No, in Gujarat... Dr. Patel: All dark color. Prabhupāda: That's right. And here, there are white also. Dr. Patel: Senaji, dark. Prabhupāda: In the... Guest (1): Tirupati. Prabhupāda: Tirupati? Dr. Patel: This also dark. Guest (1): Tirupati's Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. I have seen one temple here in Nigulesvara (?). Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa white. Dr. Patel: No, Maharastriyan temples are all white, excepting... Who? Guest (1): Viṭṭhala. Dr. Patel: Vitoba is black. Prabhupāda: We have black also. Some are black. Some are... In Texas, Dallas we have got black. Kālachanda. Contradiction. Chandjī or Kālajī. Dr. Patel: What about starting a school of Sanskrit here? There is a... I have a... [break] Prabhupāda: ...have place to stay. Dr. Patel: Never a place. But in school means... I mean, these boys, you miss... Prabhupāda: Now we are introducing Hindi, Gujarati and Maharati, speaking. Where is Manasvī? He has gone? Devotee: Yes. Dr. Patel: No, but they must talk with people in their own language. They, even sometimes they don't understand me talking English. Of course, I... [break] Prabhupāda: ...one has to study grammar for twelve years. Dr. Patel: How much? Prabhupāda: Twelve years. Dr. Patel: Twelve years. Prabhupāda: And as soon as one has his mastership on the grammar, he can study all other books. Dr. Patel: No, he can be a poet then. The Sanskrit language is poetic in a way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: So if you study grammar properly, and then you can, you can just compose poetry. [break] *Prabhupāda: Therefore Lord Brahmā is called Ādi*-kavi. Ādi-kavi. Yes. Dr. Patel: Sanskrit is poetic. You can just compose poetry. *Prabhupāda: Whole Sanskrit language in poetry. Bhagavad*-gītā is in poetry. Bhāgavata in poetry. Mahābhārata in poetry. Dr. Patel: Ninety percent of the Sanskrit literature is in poetry. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Why ninety? It may be ninety*-nine. Dr. Patel: No, but some of the... Kālidāsa, and, you know... They're also composing the ślokas in the... But... Prabhupāda: Kālidāsa also in poetry. Dr. Patel: No, that is certain... Not all. Abhijñāna-śakuntalā is not in poetry. *Prabhupāda: Asti himālaya*-nāma nakhadi-rāja... Asti uttana-sana-desi (?) himālaya-nāma na-gadi-raja (?). *Dr. Patel: What is that? Raghu*-vaṁśa. *Prabhupāda: Raghu*-vaṁśa. It is Raghu-vaṁśa. Dr. Patel: I studied his... *Prabhupāda: Raghu*-vaṁśa and Kumāra-sambhava. We studied some portion. Dr. Patel: I studied in my college days... [break] Prabhupāda: Motikama (?) is grammar. Poetry for grammar. Dr. Patel: Meghadūta I studied. (Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupāda: ...for materialistic persons. Dr. Patel: No, but they're also... In several places he had entered into high philosophy. It's not only the... Kavidhara (?)... There can never be a kavi without philosophy in him. Prabhupāda: Philosophy. Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: All, even the modern kavis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Philosophy is the very soul of kavi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Kavitā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I have found it out. Prabhupāda: Compact in thought. Dr. Patel: I am regularly reading these poetry. There also, in English poetry, you'll see so many... [break] Prabhupāda: One line, two inch, and another line, six inch. Dr. Patel: And they, they recite poetry in the prosaic way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: I have actually... Guest (1): Walt Whitman. Whitman, Whitman. Walt Whitman. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He's a great poet, American. Our Hayagrīva is very much fond of him. You are also? Satsvarūpa: Not so much. Guest (1): Yes, we must have some poets in this, our congregation. *Prabhupāda: Everyone is poet. (laughter) [break] Without being kavi, one cannot become devotee. There are twenty*-six qualifications of a devotee. One of them is to become kavi. Dr. Patel: Kavi means the one who knows present, past and future. Is it not? Prabhupāda: A man of knowledge. Dr. Patel: And knowledge means this knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Yesterday only you said that in the course, this thing. Prabhupāda: That is perfect knowledge. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Dr. Patel: These are, these are joking him, hearing (?) this, you know. Tāny aham... Uh. Not. What is that? What is the word of that śloka? [break] Prabhupāda: ...janma paraṁ janma vivasvataḥ. Katham etad vijānīyām. [break] ...May, June. Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes, May. Mirage in May and also in June. They want to report the... May, June, he has... [break] Prabhupāda: The interpreters do like that. Dr. Patel: May and June. Prabhupāda: May and June. Dr. Patel: You see? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: You were born in June. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: No, which one? Fourth, June... And I was born in May, like that. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Cāṇakya-śloka. The Cāṇakya-śloka has, paṇḍitānāṁ guṇāḥ sarve mūrkha doṣair hi kevalam (?). (Hindi) Now we used to make meaning like this, "A paṇḍita, he is qualified. The only defect is that he's a mūḍha, a mūrkha, doṣa, only doṣa." Dr. Patel: No, Sanskrit, the, you... Some of the ślokas are so... That there is one śloka: keśavaṁ patitaṁ dṛṣṭvā pāṇḍavaḥ sa nirvaraḥ, kaurava hā rudann iti hā hā keśavaṁ ke... (?) Means water in the water. So means they are worried. That way it is right. But how can Keśava be, rather, falling and Pāṇḍavas would be sa nirvaraḥ? (?) [break] Ambarīṣa: ...was a... Did he have some particular pastimes? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] Another rascal you told. Guest (1): Yes. Correct, correct. Dr. Patel: Condemn. [break] ...convert these rascals: Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Nothing to do and no, no... [break] ...prāṇa, dharma... Prabhupāda: He's no longer existing. Dr. Patel: Government is not existing even by (indistinct). No, not by... [break] There is no... Prabhupāda: They chant very (indistinct) Yes. Father, mother is sophisticated. (sound of children talking in Gujarati) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Children: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Haribol! Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everywhere (indistinct) but their father will not say. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] We shall wait. (end) Morning Walk -- March 26, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...not this, not that. That will not help. You must act in such a way that these people accept you as superior. [break] ...(Hindi) [break] ...not a paid servant. [break] ...bring Bhagavān at your control. You can bring Him at your control by love. Just like Yaśodāmayī... She's showing the stick: "Kṛṣṇa, if you do like this, then I will chastise you." And He's crying. That is premā. [break] Premā pum*-artho mahān. That is the highest achievement, to achieve the love of Godhead. And if you love God, then you achieve love of everyone. (Hindi) [break] Dr. Patel: I like you calling me... "What is that, what you are doing now?" (laughs) [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ...anya Mahāprabhu has taught us that to remain a fool and rascal before spiritual master is the first qualification of the disciple. Always remain a fool and rascal. Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached after, after... *Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha, guru more mūrkha dekhi, karila śāsana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me, considering Me a fool number one." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi. "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a first*-class mūrkha, fool. And therefore he has chastised Me." That is the standard of guru and śiṣya. A guru... And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, lālane bahavo doṣāḥ. If you pat, there are so many bad things. Lālane bahavo doṣās tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ. And if you chastise, there are so many good qualities. Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca taḍayet. Dr. Patel: Na tu lalayet. Prabhupāda: Na tu lalayet. Therefore either son or disciple, you must always chastise him, not pat him, "Oh, you are very good boy." "You are nothing. You are doing nothing." That is the business of the guru, to find out fault. Dr. Patel: Don't spare the rod. Prabhupāda: Although there is no fault, the guru's business is to: "Where is his fault?" That is guru's business. Tasmād taḍayet na tu lalayet. Dr. Patel: Yesterday you had a very big congregation here? Or all the chairs were kept out? Prabhupāda: Yes. People were coming. Therefore we have given. Not very big congregation, but many people came. Dr. Patel: You are doing in the Fourth Adhyāya. Prabhupāda: Fourth Adhyāya. Yes. Bahūni me vyatītāni janmāni tava cārjuna. [break] (Hindi) [break] ...he shall become locust. Dr. Patel: All locust. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Not only that, but the, this, what is this...? [break] Prabhupāda: ...varṇa, there are symptoms. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. "If you find those lakṣaṇas, symptoms, even in other place..." Suppose if you find the symptoms of caṇḍāla in the family of a brāhmaṇa, he's a caṇḍāla. He's not brāhmaṇa. Dr. Patel: But he is a born caṇḍāla and also wants to be a king, he can't be. Prabhupāda: But that is... Because you are... You are... We are, rather, we are also caṇḍālas. (laughs) Therefore we select a caṇḍāla as president. Guest (1) (Indian man): Select. We have selected him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): You are right. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] Any intelligent man will say like that. I said... When they fought so much for Hindi language, I said that "Why not Sanskrit?" Dr. Patel: If you make Sanskrit a compulsory language, forced (?) language, the effort that you put up to... [break] Prabhupāda: "...both you and Me, we have changed so many times, taken birth. But you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." Why this difference? *Dr. Patel: Because God has got the same body throughout in all the avatāras, while you change your body. Icchā*-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata [Bg. 7.27]. By, at that time... [break] Prabhupāda: ...if God does not change His body, why these rascals consider Kṛṣṇa as human being? Dr. Patel: Who considers? Prabhupāda: Mūḍhas. Dr. Patel: I am a mūḍha. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: ...mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. You are not mūḍha, but if you think Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: You sometimes call me a very intelligent man and other times you call me a dud. Now who am I? I forget myself. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. The so*-called, the so-called big, big leaders, big, big philosophers, and big, big scholars, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being or "There was no Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much mūḍha they are. Dr. Patel: Now, they... There is a section of scholars who think that Kṛṣṇa was not a personality at any time, but it is a legend. But others say that even if it is a legend, it is worth following and worshiping. Prabhupāda: No, no. Both of them are mūḍhas. *Dr. Patel: They are three*-four types of... Prabhupāda: Both of them are mūḍhas. Because one who thinks that it is not a fact, and one who thinks that, "Even it is not fact...," both of them do not know actually. Guest (1): Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam. Prabhupāda: Ah. Manyante mām... Guest (1): Abuddhayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ. That is the position. "God is nirākāra. Now He has assumed a form, accepting māyā." This is Māyāvāda philosophy. Dr. Patel: No, but the difference between God and us, that the God has control over the māyā, while we are controlled by the māyā, the jīvas. Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is māyā even. Dr. Patel: Then if they know māyā, then you call them Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: No, no. Māyāvādī is different. Dr. Patel: And you call them rascals. Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī is different. Māyāvādī is different. But those who are completely ignorant, that is another thing. That is another thing. Māyāvādīs, they pose themselves as knowing everything. Dr. Patel: But I tell you, Śaṅkarācārya was not that Māyāvādī which you call Māyāvādī. He was... Prabhupāda: I am not talking of Śaṅkarācārya. Dr. Patel: Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy has been misunderstood, and they are, those are the people who, real Māyāvādīs. Śaṅkarācārya was, I mean, a... [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] There is no mercy. If he says, "No, no. I shall, I shall rub over your belly and it will be cured," is that the means? It must go on, operation, surgical operation. That is treatment. If you become kind, "No, no, no, it is very difficult. I will give him something. It will cure," That is not treatment. (Hindi) [break] Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu [Bg. 16.19]. No mercy. "You surrender. Otherwise, if you are envious, then I am sending you to the darkest region of ignorance." [break] (Hindi) [break] ...after, you are quitting? Girirāja: Well, I thought that everyone knew. We follow that. Dr. Patel: They wash their hands seven times with soap and water. Devotee: Prabhupāda, they may not be able... (heavy wind) Prabhupāda: But why they'll not... Dr. Patel: If one man does not do it, the bathroom gets infected and all others get infection. Prabhupāda: ...do not learn? Devotee: (indistinct) [break] Dr. Patel: No, diarrhea, bad stomach, they may get vomiting also tomorrow. One man vomited also. [break] Prabhupāda: ...keeping dogs? Is that hygienic? Dr. Patel: Dogs? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Unhygienic. They, they make dogs sleep in their bed. Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. Patel: On their legs and all that thing. And what not? [break] Prabhupāda: ...standard. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... Dr. Patel: That is the best medicine. Prabhupāda: That is the best medicine. Dr. Patel: But sometimes augmentary medicine also is necessary. *Prabhupāda: Yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantara-śuciḥ. Either take this medical or chant twenty*-four hours Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: And don't eat. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: I... I chastised them by asking them to starve for one day. So they... [break] Prabhupāda: ...take bath in the ocean? Yaśomatīnandana: No, drinking water. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: And the drinking water also should be strained to, to... Guest (1): That is most important part. Dr. Patel: Through muslin. That is the (indistinct) [break] Prabhupāda: ...fire it, and keep it. It is all right. [break] ...no service. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: I have, you see, I have seen in England in my training days in the College of Tropical Medicine and our hospital... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...for all disease. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra... nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagīyamānāt. Dr. Patel: I was told you are going away on sixth? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: You are going... [break] Prabhupāda: ...rent tax, about... Suppose the father is tenant. Dr. Patel: Rent tax (indistinct). Rent tax. Prabhupāda: If the father is tenant. Guest (1): Rent tax? What is it? Prabhupāda: No, in the rent tax, suppose the father is tenant, and the father dies, then the son be... Guest (1): Son gets it. Prabhupāda: Gets it. Prabhupāda: Eh? [break] ...to live in the water and to fight with the crocodile, it is not very good position. So there are crocodiles. How long you'll fight with them like that? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We have no difficulty in chanting and working. Dr. Patel: Let's go this way. Prabhupāda: We are mūḍha, and they are big mūḍhas. That's all. Dr. Patel: That's right. [break] (Indians talk in background) [break] Prabhupāda: There is no revolution because that is one. Everyone is in agreement with God. That is spiritual world. Therefore there is no question of revolution. *Dr. Patel: If everyone was in agreement with God, there would not have been all sorts of quarrel and Māra*-mārī and this... [break] Prabhupāda: Everyone is not. That is the defect. Everyone is not in agreement. Guest (1): Actually, they divided into camp... [break] Prabhupāda: They do not know how these things coming, and how to amend it, how to reform. [break] ...countries, they are not happy. Dr. Patel: They are not happy because the communism is not in the right. Communism is Cārvāka philo... [break] Prabhupāda: ...others, they're also in the same background. Dr. Patel: No, certain basic amenities are necessary. That is, has been provided in the Hindu religion. What we have to... [break] We have to remind them to follow your philosophy and that is... [break] Prabhupāda: So you first of all follow. You first of all follow. Then you teach them. Dr. Patel: Bābā... [break] Prabhupāda: ...follow, how can I teach them? Dr. Patel: We are following of the... We have been taught the European way. We are following their method. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are not following. Dr. Patel: So we will come to the... [break] Prabhupāda: ...Mahāprabhu says, āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: You must first of all behave yourself. Then you can teach. Dr. Patel: That is why, I tell you... I cite an example of Gandhi... [break] Prabhupāda: ...one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he cannot have any good qualities. And if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, all the good qualities will automatically come out. So therefore this is the only treatment, to educate people how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be settled up. One remedy. Guest (1): For all disease. *Prabhupāda: All disease. That is also... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate, sa guṇān samatītyaitān... [Bg. 14.26]. These varieties of different qualities due to these material modes of nature, but if you transcend... Just like if you remain in the water, there are so many symptoms of danger. You come out of the water; *there is no danger. You cannot expect, even if you have got the best boat, you cannot expect that you are safe in the water. But if you remain one inch above the water, then there is no danger. So this devotional service is like that. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. As soon one is fully engaged in devotional service, then he's above this material atmosphere. (end) Morning Walk -- March 27, 1974, Bombay Dr. Patel: ...Kṛṣṇa knows. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa knows. He has imitated Kṛṣṇa's plan. Kṛṣṇa has made so many birds. So you cannot make any other size. That is the version of the Vedānta. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The original idea is from Kṛṣṇa. You simply, you can imitate. That's all. Just like there are so many imitation birds. Similarly, everything is imitation. Everything is imitation. *Dr. Patel: Yes. In Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata you get so many stories wherein all of devas and kinnaras, they come in their own planes and stand there with the planes. How could they stand with their planes down there? Prabhupāda: That is much improved. This is not so much improved. Dr. Patel: And in good old days when the planes were not in existence, the westerners thought that we were all fairy stories. Prabhupāda: That we are also thinking, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no background." We are also thinking. (chuckles) Although we are big, big leaders, we are simply imitators of the westerners. That's all. Western people are our father and mother. That is our modern Indian... Now, western people are drinking wine. Now the government is drinking. Gandhi stopped it, but "No, the western people do." Unless they drink wine, they cannot be very... They work... Dr. Patel: Here they are all now alco... Prabhupāda: So western people, western civilization has become the father and mother of India. Dr. Patel: They idolize. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But they don't drink so much, I think... Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: These boys in western... Prabhupāda: They are now introducing. Now, when it is introduced, they'll be accustomed. They'll drink day and night. Don't bother. Dr. Patel: I have not got that experience. When I was a student in London, in London University, the boys there, they drink but not that much as they drink here. They are abusing it. Prabhupāda: Every, every few steps there is a wine shop. Dr. Patel: Now, every few steps, now you can have that in your own home. Here. You give the minister ten thousand rupees of bribes for a license to... [break] ...have in your home. [break] Prabhupāda: ...these four things which we are prohibiting: illicit sex... *Dr. Patel: And drinking, meat*-eating. *Prabhupāda: Yes, intoxication, meat*-eating and gambling. So these four things are encouraged by the government. Gambling, that, what is that? Lottery. Devotees: Lottery. *Prabhupāda: And meat*-eating: beef shop. Girirāja: Masko(?). Prabhupāda: Eh? Girirāja: The government has big distribution... Dr. Patel: No, they are... Prabhupāda: And prostitution means contraceptive. Girirāja: Birth control. Prabhupāda: Prostitution and illicit sex, contraceptive. Dr. Patel: Who use the best, these contraceptives? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: The boys and the girls in the colleges. Prabhupāda: See. They're encouraging, encouraging these things. So why they will like? Now,... Therefore our position is that they want to drive us. The whole plan is they do not want this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement to stay here. Dr. Patel: How can they drive you? I don't agree with you on that... Prabhupāda: No, no, they are trying their best. They wanted to break the temple and drive away. Dr. Patel: They, temple they broke... Guest (1) (Indian man): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guest (1): But self*-discipline alone is... nobody. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the plan. And now no sanction of temple. That was the plea, that "It is temporary. It should be broken." And when we asked for permanent approval, "No sanction." This is clear. Dr. Patel: Have you got the... Have you received the, renewed the temporary permit. Girirāja: Well, we've applied. Prabhupāda: Every year we have to apply. Dr. Patel: Yes, every year it should be applied. Prabhupāda: Just see. Dr. Patel: That is the law. I give this warning. Prabhupāda: That is the law of breaking temple. And when we want, that is the law, "No sanction." (Hindi) This is our position. If we go forward, then we are culprit. And if we remain backward, then we are culprit. Both ways. (Hindi) *Dr. Patel: Now, camp of the sin of these people is now filling up, and Kalki*-avatāra must come out. [break] Prabhupāda: ...gentlemen. Otherwise, how they could reign for eight hundred years? At that time Hindus were very strong. They were rigid. And there were many native princes. Still, they ruled over India for eight hundred years. As soon as the Aurangzeb showed his bigotry, it was failed. Muslim... As they're advertised, Muslims are not like that. Dr. Patel: They were good to Bengal. Mākhanalāl: They have very much reputation for violence... Prabhupāda: No. In Vṛndāvana we have got. So all the Muslim emperors, they contributed. Dr. Patel: But that way, in Vṛndāvana you have got some signs that some of the Arabs have become saints, Hindu saints. Two or three Arabs, they have got very big tombs there in Vṛndāvana. Arab saints. They came to Surat and then they, I mean... [break] Prabhupāda: ...our calculation is if the Muslims were... Dr. Patel: So bad as that. Prabhupāda: ...so bad, then how they could rule for eight hundred years? Dr. Patel: That is right, but they were bad enough. They were... Prabhupāda: Bad enough... Your, our so called Hindus are worst enough. Dr. Patel: That's all right. But they were bad. Guest (1): Because devotees of Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: If they were bad enough, we are now worst enough. We are now introducing meat*-eating and drinking and... We are worst. Devotee: Prabhupāda, in the newspaper the other day it said that the India government wants to start exporting beef. Dr. Patel: Beef! Because they want to... Yes, we read it. They want to be..., slaughter the surplus cows because they are not yielding enough milk. There was very big article I read wherein they said that not only the milk is important, but the cow dung is as fertilizer in the fields much more than the modern day... [break] No? [break] *Prabhupāda: Why it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, go-rakṣya? Why not another animal-rakṣya? *Dr. Patel: Bāgha*-rakṣya koro. *Prabhupāda: Why it is specially mentioned? Go*-brāhmaṇa-hitāya. *Dr. Patel: They are doing bāgha*-rakṣya here, not go-rakṣya. All the tigers are getting much... [break] Prabhupāda: ...crying like jackals, they are. Guest (1): Yes. Devotee: You saw them, Dr. Patel? *Dr. Patel: Yes. I call them bhūta*-vat (?). This is bhūta-vat. You know? [break] Prabhupāda: ...animals. Why like animals? Dr. Patel: That's right. Every one is... [break] *Bhava*-bhūti: ...Balavanta's election campaign. After a fired-up speech by Balavanta, one lady called up and said "Why do you keep referring to the American people as animals?" So she was so offended. Dr. Patel: She became violent. So all violent, they are animals. [break] Prabhupāda: They are good. *Dr. Patel: They are good, and God is serving best. Last, last śloka he recites from Bhagavad*-gītā. Ye... Su balo. Guest (1): Dr. Patel: They have got śrī, bhūti... Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has started from there. So they are very fortunate. Guest (1): Otherwise... Last birth, they must have had the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, they... In one year they... Not that actually, you see, Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: They have got śrī, dhruvā, nīti... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Not the loafers, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. They have manufactured the rascal word "daridra-nārāyaṇa." Daridra-nārāyaṇa, this nārāyaṇa, that nārāyaṇa. Not pure Nārāyaṇa. Mixing something. This nārāyaṇa, that nārāyaṇa. Guest (1): They must have something God. Or they cannot be prosperous, whatever you may say. Satsvarūpa: No, but Prabhupāda, you explained we were experiencing all this prosperity like zeroes. Just so many zeroes. Prabhupāda: Yes. If they do not take seriously to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then this prosperity will not exist. *Bhava*-bhūti: It is already degrading. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: No, but really these people are, I mean, in their heart superior than others. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Because their method of working is more honest in a way. If they get money then we get jealous of them because... Prabhupāda: No, they, they are feeling nationally. They are feeling nationally. Yes. *Dr. Patel: Even though it is a nation of hodge*-podge people from Europe, but still they are... Prabhupāda: So therefore they have said United Nations. *Dr. Patel: Still, they are well*-welded(?). Guest (1): United States. Prabhupāda: United States. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma... [break] *Dr. Patel: ...over*-clever or whatever you may call, but the American would be outwitted by a Gujarati baniya if he has got the same money, same, I mean, freedom of business and same facility to work. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the plan is to drive away the Gujaratis from Africa. (laughter) Yes. The Britishers are afraid. The Britishers are afraid that if the Indians, they are allowed to remain here, they will not be able to exploit the Africans. *Dr. Patel: All Indians and all Gujarati baniyas who settled in Africa, one and all are multi*-millionaires. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...also. Dr. Patel: But they have migrated to London now. They are very well... People from England, I mean, Africa, especially East Africa, Kenya and Uganda... [break] Prabhupāda: ...their own house in London. Every Indian. [break] Englishmen, they haven't got their own house. Dr. Patel: No, Englishmen are very much afraid of business with... [break] Prabhupāda: ...former purchaser, they sell to the higher bidders. Dr. Patel: Yes. Very cunning. Very cunning people. *Bhava*-bhūti: I think there is some complaint also here in Maharastra, some plan not to give any more Gujaratis job. Just simply... [break] Prabhupāda: That is good. Dr. Patel: (Heavy wind noise) And then so many, they... [break] Prabhupāda: ...clean. Although there is no machine. Dr. Patel: Because the sea comes here, right. Here is the water line, high water line, high tide. Prabhupāda: And washes everything. That is God's grace. Without machine, they keep it clean. Guest (1): Without taking any charge. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...same thing is happening here in a different edition. That's all. Guest (1): All are nationalized. Only men and women can... Dr. Patel: They're also nationalized. Man is nationalized. Prabhupāda: We consider according to our position in this material world, "This is good, this is bad." This is simply a mental concoction. Everything is bad. Only Kṛṣṇa is good. You are criticizing Russians. Why do you...? What is the, what is your state of...? Dr. Patel: Russians are good people. They were a very good people... That is why... [break] Prabhupāda: ...rascal... For some time, another rascal will come, another rascal... Dr. Patel: Russians, technically, they are Russians. [break] Prabhupāda: ...advertise, but do you know? Dr. Patel: I know it. Prabhupāda: I know it very well. Dr. Patel: No, no, no. It's a fact. I have read the history. Prabhupāda: Well, you have read history; I have gone there personally. Dr. Patel: Going there and reading history is something different. You have seen only at a particular time, but... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...I was on the airport, they called police because they got, they saw one Bhagavad*-gītā in my bags. You see. This is the position. *Dr. Patel: They are, they are translating Bhagavad*-gītā in their own universities now. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...may be because it was Bhagavad*-gītā, they stopped me. Dr. Patel: This is a phase of the government. The government is not the people. [break] (Heavy wind noise throughout) Prabhupāda: ...people everywhere good. Dr. Patel: But the Russians are really good. *Prabhupāda: Only the... People everywhere, all over the world, they are all good. Only the leaders make them bad. That's all. That is my opinion. Misleaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. The so*-called śreṣṭha, leaders, they... Just like in India. When Gandhi was there it was prohibition, and now there is wine shop every step. It is due to the leaders. People, people, what the innocent people, what they'll do? Dr. Patel: You are talking of this, but I am the knower of the private character of so many businessman. Prabhupāda: Why you know? Everyone knows. Dr. Patel: They have got so many women outside, and some of them want every day new one. All sorts of rascals they are. [break] Raja should rule, and not these... *Prabhupāda: Asaṁskṛtāḥ kriyā*-hīnāḥ. Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Everyone, all people, not only the ministers. Dr. Patel: But yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad itaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have become śreṣṭha. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Blind men have become the leader of the blind men. That is the difficulty. And if you want to open their eyes, they will say, "No sanction for temple. Get out." Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). This is the position. *Bhava*-bhūti: It's an excellent preaching point, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Bhava*-bhūti: Christianity was taught to the publicans and the beggars, but Kṛṣṇa taught originally bhakti-yoga to the kings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they were cultured. *Dr. Patel: According to the Upaniṣads, you know, actually the brahma*-vidyā was with the kṣatriyas. And how could a brāhmaṇa boy come to kṣatriya to learn it. "But still, my boys, you have come and I will teach you." That is what we have seen in one of the... Prabhupāda: [break] ...there is no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Dr. Patel: Common denominator. [break] Prabhupāda: What is this? Dr. Patel: Here the same thing. There are part of an ideal. Prabhupāda: No, no. When the young men, young women, as they meet, there is possibility, sex. Dr. Patel: That is there in Swami Nārāyaṇa's sampradāya. If you go to temple, a sannyāsī you can't see, but the people for saṁsārīs, saṁsārīs (?)... [break] Prabhupāda: But the men come from women. (Heavy wind noise throughout) Dr. Patel: That's right. But here we are talking of that. Prabhupāda: So if they are, women are extricated, then where the Swami Nārāyaṇa's devotees will come from? Dr. Patel: And if they come from home, not from the temple. Prabhupāda: But home means, that is from a woman. Dr. Patel: But there, there, in the home, woman is there... Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot stop... Dr. Patel: You are disagre... I can argue that way. Then you get annoyed to me. Then you call me mūḍha. Prabhupāda: No, no, why you, why one should hate so much woman? Dr. Patel: We don't hate. We want to protect you from sex. Prabhupāda: That is... Not to, not to see face, not to... Dr. Patel: Because woman is the embodiment. Prabhupāda: You should be trained up. Dr. Patel: Woman is the embodiment of māyā. Prabhupāda: Vikāra... In spite of woman, you'll not be agitated. That training required. Dr. Patel: You... Now, now, that training is very difficult to get. I am very sorry to say that. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. That training is there. We are, we are training in that way. Dr. Patel: You must, you must have, I mean, a sort of a... You see, between the object and indriyas... Prabhupāda: Then according to Swami Nārāyaṇa's principles, I am a fallen. Dr. Patel: No, no, no, sir. Prabhupāda: Because I am always surrounded by young girls. Dr. Patel: No, no, that is... Swami Nārāyaṇa sitting with the women but the sādhus... Prabhupāda: Then why you said...? Don't you see...? Dr. Patel: Listen, you are arguing in such a way that there will be a flash between us two. Prabhupāda: No, no. People should be trained up in such a way that in spite of (indistinct) you should not be agitated. That is, that is. Guest (1): Our religion... [break] and that these boys... [break] Dr. Patel: Sādhus, not sannyāsīs. [break] Prabhupāda: In European countries, in European countries, if you restrict in that way, that will be fanaticism. Guest (1): That is what I am telling you. It should not be done immediately like that. [break] ...it must be trained, and it will take a long time. Prabhupāda: Why Europe? Nowadays, here also. That is not possible. Guest (1): It is not... It is not possible. Prabhupāda: It is simply utopian, utopian. Dr. Patel: That is all right. It is not possible. So you are doing like this. When it was possible..., *Prabhupāda: We are, we are training that... Never mind. That is the training of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para*-dāreṣu. That women may be thousands, but you see them as your mother. That's it. Guest (1): That's all... [break] Prabhupāda: If you become agitated even by seeing mother, then what can be done? Guest (1): No, no, that should not be done. *Prabhupāda: Then you are a khara, go*-khara. Dr. Patel: Monkey. Guest (1): No, but, I mean, a (Hindi) they don't see their own wife even. Goswami was telling that please don't keep a meeting there... Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no. Guest (1): ...because my wife is staying there. Because Prabhupāda has also created something, good thing. [break] Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry that... You have misunderstood me. I said this is the strict injunctions. You did it under a command, but that... Prabhupāda: But this cannot be carried. Dr. Patel: And then people were so... Prabhupāda: If you make some injunction which is impossible to carry... *Dr. Patel: Now! Kāla*-dharma. That was a different kāla. That was a different time. Now they have also made some, so many... [break] ...they talk also, emergency, they talk also. In the Emergency Room, they talk also with the ladies. [break] Prabhupāda: ...still going on. Dr. Patel: Much more than... Prabhupāda: Due to introduction of Sadananda's principles, the debauchery has not reduced. It has increased. So that is a failure. Guest (1): The more we try to stop, it is increasing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): That is the principle. [break] Prabhupāda: That is the injunction, that is in śāstra: *Dr. Patel: That is what Swami Nārāyaṇa says. He says from the same Manu*-smṛti. (breaks) Prabhupāda: ...seven years. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: (talking constantly in background to somebody else) And these boys are very good students because they are... [break] ...this dating business. I hate this word date itself. Eh? Prabhupāda: Well, this hating... You hate for something, he hates for something else. That is going on. Dr. Patel: But this dating... That is why I to... I mean, I did not see my wife before I married her. And we were very happy all the life. [break] Prabhupāda: That is not happening nowadays. Now, when... One girl is visited many times, and she becomes pregnant. Then marriage takes place. Dr. Patel: Then only... Guest (1): By force you marry. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no marriage. Guest (1): Now they are, they questioned and they call this the modern day... Prabhupāda: [break] ...of the same quality. Guest (1): That is the now. That is how. Prabhupāda: How the mother can do that! Birds of the same feather. *Bhava*-bhūti: It's predicted like that in the Bhāgavata. Guest (1): But the vibrations of these boys, what... [break] Prabhupāda: ...done? Therefore we have got the Dallas school. Guest (1): I mean the Indian method of arranging marriage, by the parents is the best. [break] Prabhupāda: I have got them married. Although I am not their parents, I asked that "You marry this." They accepted. Guest (1): That is the right way. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Jagat... Jagat*-tāriṇī. *Bhava*-bhūti: Oh yes. *Prabhupāda: What is the name, Jagat*-tāriṇī? *Viśākhā: Dīna*-tāriṇī? *Prabhupāda: No, no, Jagat*-tāriṇī? *Bhava*-bhūti: Jagat-tāriṇī, yes. Prabhupāda: Who... *Bhava*-bhūti: And Bhūrijana. *Prabhupāda: He married Jagat*-tāriṇī. She was a famous artist. So she came to me to surrender, that "I shall become your disciple." Guest (1): The paintings which was... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): She was painting in that film? *Prabhupāda: No, no. She is another girl. She's Jadurāṇī. So this Jagat*-tāriṇī, after some days, I asked her that "You go to Japan. There is my disciple, Bhūrijana. You go and marry him." So she did not see the boy, did not know anything about. And she was very rich. Still, on my order, she went to Japan and married that boy. Dr. Patel: And is she unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Very happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest (1): That's guru*-vacana. Dr. Patel: No, no. That guru and... Gurudeva... [break] Prabhupāda: No. I did not like my wife. Still, I had to marry her. (laughter) Dr. Patel: And you had not bad days all your life. Or you were quarreling? I am sorry to intrude. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Were you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So you are quarrelsome even now. (laughter) Prabhupāda: My wife... I admit she's very nice lady. But I did not like her. [break] ...if he becomes so, he cannot become Aurobindo Ghosh. If he becomes attached to the wife up to the point of death, he never becomes Aurobindo Ghosh. Guest (1): Tulasī dāsa, also, the same thing happened. No? Everywhere... Dr. Patel: I was attached to my wife. And I used to quarrel every day. *Prabhupāda: Quarreling between husband and wife, that is natural. That is explained in the Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... Dam*-patye kalahe caiva bambhārambhe laghu kriyā (?). The quarreling will be very humbug, big, but the result will be nothing. Dr. Patel: Nothing. These American boys, they quarrel with their wives. The next day... Prabhupāda: Because there is no... Guest (1): They will immediately quarrel. Dr. Patel: No, no, no. Here, because the Hindu... [break] Prabhupāda: ...quarrel, my wife never thought of any other man; neither I thought of any other woman. Dr. Patel: Why? Because of the background. *Prabhupāda: Although we fought, but there was no such thing. [break] Fighting is natural. This is fight of love. This is not fight... Therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, "Neglect this fighting. Don't take it seriously." Dam*-patye kalahe bambhārambhe laghu kriyā (?). This should not be... Quarrel between husband and wife should not be taken seriously. Let them fight. It will stop automatically. That's all. Dr. Patel: He said, now we have... [break] Prabhupāda: ...wasting time in social... Yes. *Dr. Patel: In wasting time in grāmya*-kathā. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Grāmya*-vārttā. Prabhupāda: Very good. It is a good suggestion. We should utilize the time for spiritual advancement. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Even sometimes... We already discussed. [break] Prabhupāda: ...discussion on any śloka. Let us discuss. *Dr. Patel: Eh? Bolo. Chandobhai? Chandobhai knows the whole Bhagavad*-gītā by heart. Prabhupāda: That is very nice. Dr. Patel: He knows it by heart. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: I can't... I can't remember. I, I, I sometimes remember, but he remembers perpetually. Eh? Prabhupāda: So. What is that? *Chandobhai: Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe tiṣṭhati arjuna [Bg. 18.61]. Let us say that only. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Chandobhai: Prabhupāda: Yes. *Chandobhai: Tam eva śaraṇaṁ gaccha sarva*-bhāvena bhārata... Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: ...tat prasādāt parāṁ śāntiṁ sthānaṁ prāpsyasi śāśvatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: I think that is the crux of the whole thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. So īśvara... That, this, this, I was discussing the other day. Bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san. Īśvara. Bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi sann avyayātmā. So Kṛṣṇa is always īśvara. We are īśvara in the family or in the office or in my society. But we are not that type of īśvara, that I can live within the heart of everyone. Therefore there is distinction between this īśvara and we īśvara. The Māyāvādīs, they do not understand this. He claims that "I am the same īśvara." But do you remain in everyone's heart? Can you study, can you study what I am thinking now? But still, they will say, "I am the same." This is Māyāvādī philosophy's defect. Chandobhai: Difference. *Prabhupāda: No, this is defect. They do not understand their incapability, and still, they claim, "I am the same, one, So 'ham." This is their deficiency. Here is the de... īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... [Bg. 18.61]. Do you stay... Can you stay, can you say what I am thinking now? Then why you are claiming that īśvara? You are a rascal. Why you are claiming. Namaskāra. And īśvara, īśvara means he knows... That is also described in Bhagavad-gītā... What is that? Kṣetrajña, kṣetrajña. *Chandobhai: Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. *Prabhupāda: Ah! Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Kṣetra-kṣetrajña-jñānam. Kṣetra means this body, and kṣetrajña means one who knows. Kṣetrajña. Now, you know the pains and pleasure of your body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body. Chandobhai: And the Lord knows the pains and pleasures of everybody. *Prabhupāda: Therefore He says, kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That is the difference. But the Māyāvādī will not accept this. *Chandobhai: Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānaṁ tad jñānam... Prabhupāda: That is jñānam. They are in ajñāna, still, they are claiming that "We are jñānī." You see. This is the defect. *Chandobhai: Aham ātmā guḍākeśa sarva*-bhūtāśaya-sthitaḥ. Prabhupāda: Chandobhai: He cannot be īśvara. Prabhupāda: That is... Chandobhai: Īśvara is one only. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: There cannot be two īśvaras. *Prabhupāda: And, and, not only that. Bhrāmayan sarva*-bhūtāni [Bg. 18.61]. He's managing the business of all living entities. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. That I was explaining the other day. Just see Kṛṣṇa's business, that He is situated in everyone's heart, and He's giving direction and managing all His affairs. And there are unlimited millions and tril... Not millions either. Unlimited. Without any number. He has to manage them. So how much busy He is! And that is... How is being done? Ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. Chandobhai: Ekāṁśena His only one part of... *Prabhupāda: Only, only a part. That is Kṛṣṇa. And these rascals thinking, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is as good as I am." Just see. The Māyāvādī rascals, they think like that, that "I am as good as Kṛṣṇa." "Kṛṣṇa played rāsa*-līlā. Therefore I shall do." Dr. Patel: These Māyāvādīs... Māyāvādī is one who thinks himself to be all in all. Prabhupāda: Means rascal number one. "All in all, I am one," that is, means rascal number one. Dr. Patel: How do you explain ahaṁ brahmāsmi? Prabhupāda: You are by quality Brahman, spirit. Dr. Patel: But not quantity. *Prabhupāda: No. Quantity. Just like if you take a drop of water of this... If the drop says, "I am the ocean," what is this nonsense? You are drop of water. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. That's right. That is nice. *Dr. Patel: Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūte, mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke, jīva-loke... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Jīva*-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhāni indriyāṇi... *Prabhupāda: So that the Māyāvādīs do not know. "Why aṁśa? I am the same. I am the whole." Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. Therefore they are rotting in this material world, hard struggle for existence. Dr. Patel: Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti yac cāpy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ... Prabhupāda: Ah. And that is going on, transmigration. Chandobhai: ...gṛhītvaitāni saṁyāti vāyur gandhān ivāśayāt. How the body goes away? Prabhupāda: Yes. According, according to the quality or the modes of nature, he has to change his body. This Māyāvāda philosophy has made the whole world atheist. They don't believe in God. Dr. Patel: I think this, what do you call Māyāvāda philosophy is not... [break] Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī was introduced... Chandobhai: By Buddha. Prabhupāda: ...by Śaṅkara. Chandobhai: Śaṅkara and Jains mostly. Prabhupāda: Māyāvāda... Dr. Patel: Jains are, they are... They don't believe in God. Jains are... Their soul is as long as their body. If that leg is cut, the soul's leg is cut. Prabhupāda: No. Without, without going to other philosophies, best thing is to stick to your own philosophy and try to understand. Chandobhai: Yes, that is the best thing. Prabhupāda: That is the best thing. Chandobhai: Then you'll understand all the philosophies. *Prabhupāda: So you take the essence of all philosophies, Bhagavad*-gītā. *Guest (1): Extract of every śāstra is Bhagavad*-gītā. Chandobhai: Not only that, you must speak your own philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: Ultimately, the goal is one, you see. Dr. Patel: How you explain *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-mūlam adhah-śākham. Have you got any experience, ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham? Have you got any experience? The root is upside and the branches and the twigs downside. Dr. Patel: In the shadow in the pond. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is in rivers. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore this reality is there that is up. And this is shadow. Dr. Patel: That's it. Guest (1): (indistinct) *Dr. Patel: No, he has... I mean, delivered. I was not able to understand for many years this one. Ūrdhva*-mūlam... [break] ...and this illusionary shadow. *Prabhupāda: This is maintained by Vedic injunction. Just like people are very much attached to fruitive activities. They are attached to that. They do not want to go beyond. The karmīs. Karmīs, their whole ambition is how to go to these heavenly planets. He does not know that what is the benefit of going to the heavenly planets? He does not know. Therefore he is amazed by the chandāṁsi, Vedic chandāṁsi. Yām imāṁ puṣpitāṁ vācam, veda*-vādinaḥ. So they are especially attached to these Vedic... Chandobhai: Injunctions of action. *Prabhupāda: Fruitive activities. They do not accept this: ā*-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16]. They'll not. "No, no. We shall go to..." Just like these rascals are going to the Candraloka. Candraloka. (laughter) Now other rascals supporting them: "Oh, now we are..." (laughter) Dr. Patel: The Americans rascals are going there. *Prabhupāda: No, many other rascals are going also. And Indian rascals are supporting that, "Oh, now science is so advanced. Now there is no question of this Bhagavad*-gītā. Now we have to go to the moon planet." Dr. Patel: That, that... I told you that story? Those astronauts who have gone on... [break] I have read it. Prabhupāda: The astronautics... Chandobhai: It is so said like that. The astronauts, they were all talking of philosophy only and nothing else, after coming from Moon. Prabhupāda: The astronautics... That Russian... Even Nehru went to receive. Just see, such a rascal minister we have. An astronaut is to be received. [break] Dr. Patel: All astronauts... Prabhupāda: ...he was received by Nehru? Eh? Dr. Patel: Might have. All astronauts, they have got no sex desire. All of them. [break] Prabhupāda: ...still asiddha... So do you mean to say by avoiding sex life one becomes siddha? Dr. Patel: That is what they do, but that is what... Prabhupāda: That is your standard? Dr. Patel: ...as far as sex is concerned, they are siddhas. Prabhupāda: Then impotents are all siddhas. (laughter) All the impotent persons, they're all siddhas. Dr. Patel: That is, in a way, they are. Prabhupāda: That's all right. *Dr. Patel: Niḥspṛha*-cetanaṁ jagat... Guest (1): No, those have controlled their sex intercourse are... Prabhupāda: No. Siddhas means in spite of agitation, he's not agitated. That is siddha. That is siddha. Dr. Patel: But in spite of agitation of their wives, they are not agitated. Prabhupāda: It is simply forceful negation. Dr. Patel: But in spite of their wives' agitation, they are not agitated. Prabhupāda: No, no, that... No, you are calling them siddhas. Therefore I am telling you. Then impotents are siddhas. Dr. Patel: Then what should we call them? Prabhupāda: Eh? No, they are little advanced. That's all. You can say that. [break] ...facility, they are, they have become little advanced. Dr. Patel: Candra is the lord of mind, and... [break] Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, he was Candra. He was given the post of Candra. You were not given. You were not given. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that siddha is different thing. Dr. Patel: Candra is the wife of guru. He was a rascal. Prabhupāda: Siddha is different thing. But why they are given post? Just like the government post is given to the qualified man. It doesn't matter whether... Dr. Patel: Candra must be a very vigorous fellow. All the... (indistinct) [break] *Prabhupāda: ...described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa... That is siddha. That is siddha. All rascals. This is siddha. Api cet sudurācāraḥ. Because he's sticking to this principle, that "Kṛṣṇa is my everything," sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. That is sādhu [break] ...real things are not... And, and the next verse says, śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā. Because he has taken to this principle, other good qualities will soon come there. Don't bother. But first thing is that he has taken that "Kṛṣṇa is my life." Ananya-bhāk. Then everything will come. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. This is wanted. That is siddhi. Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ. Guest (1): In between they start showing so many things. Prabhupāda: Yes. And in the meantime they may fall down and go to hell. Guest (1): Yes, that is how it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, his so*-called siddhas and these..., they are bogus. [break] "Oh, he has got so much Vedic knowledge." No. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Even though he appears to have so much knowledge, his real knowledge has been taken away by māyā. Chandobhai: Yes, if I sincerely love you, you will reveal yourself to me. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā in the Seventh Chapter: Dr. Patel: Jñānena hatvā... Prabhupāda: That is jñāna. That jñāna. Dr. Patel: Me... Aṁśa... What is that? [break] *Prabhupāda: ...that is, of course, studying Bhagavad*-gītā, but their main business is to carry out the orders of their spiritual master. That is first business. Otherwise simply quoting for lives together, they'll never come to... *Guest (1): Kṛṣṇa*-loka. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Like us. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Like us. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Good father, mother, who has begotten a child like you. Yaśomatīnandana: I'm just a rogue. You are my real father. *Prabhupāda: Pitā na sa syāt. (Hindi) Pitā na sa syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. Pitā, father must be, he must be father who can deliver his son from the impending death. So one can avoid this repetition of birth and death only becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. So any father who gives chance to his children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's real father. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt... na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. [break] ...there is a verse: Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Indian man (1): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. You don't find any dictionary. It is not old. *Indian man (1): It is like daridra*-nārāyaṇa. *Prabhupāda: Like daridra*-nārāyaṇa, yes. You are very intelligent. (laughs) It is another manufacturing, daridra. Janārdana... Janatai is not Janārdana. We say jaysam pakṣe janārdana. Jaysam pakṣe janārdana.(?) "All glories to the party who side Janārdana is there." Jaysam pakṣe janārdana.(?) Devotee: Pakṣe, pakṣe janārdana. *Prabhupāda: Pāṇḍu*-putrāṇāṁ jaysam pakṣe janārdana. Pāṇḍu-putra, the Pāṇḍavas, are glorified because on their side, Kṛṣṇa is there. Therefore, victory for them. One very big doctor of Allahabad, my old friend, Dr. G. Bose, he is also D.T.M., M.A.B. He wants to join this movement. Dr. Patel: Haribol. There is one doctor, he'll look to the health and hygiene of the inmates. Prabhupāda: Why not yourself? Dr. Patel: ...on that point I'm going to (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: These rascals, asuras, they do not know what is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduḥ. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. Nivṛtti. Nivṛtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat*-eating. This is nivṛtti. And pravṛtti, take to Kṛṣṇa. This is pravṛtti, nivṛtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ asura-jana [Bg. 16.7]. They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders. Indian man: Na ācāro na satyaṁ te śuddha vidyate. *Prabhupāda: Na ācāraḥ. Personally they also do not do anything, ah? They're addict, they addict to drinking, addict to prostitution, and they, by votes, they become leaders. So how people will be happy? Asura*-jana. They live by asura-jana. This is the whole chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. They, they are making their plan. What is their plan-making? Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye manoratham. This is the only plan. "Now I have got this bank balance, and tomorrow further increase, and tomorrow increase." Increase, increase, his life decreased, and kicked out of this... Indian man (2): That plan becomes out of date next year. *Prabhupāda: Ah? (laughs) Yes. That "He's my enemy, he's my friend. I'll kill so many enemies. Now one enemy is still there... Who is richer than me? Who is wiser than me?" These are the plans of the asura*-jana. Indian man (3): (Sanskrit) Sadṛśo māyā. *Prabhupāda: Sadṛśo mayā. Yes. "I'll protect my money in this way. I shall keep money in this way so that my sons, grandsons, and great*-grandsons will enjoy. And I am going to become a cat and dog, doesn't matter. (everyone laughs) My grandson will enjoy." These are the plans. Where this rascal is going, he has no information. He has no information where he is going, but he is making provisions for his great-grandson. He does not know who is coming to be his great-grandson. This is asura program. You ask these asuras that "If you do not believe in the next life, then why you are working so hard?" They reply, "For the next generation." Next generation. And if you do not believe in the next life, what is the meaning of next generation? They say like that. This is the asuric civilization. (Sanskrit) So... Indian man (2): Āsurīm... Prabhupāda: Punar janmani. They'll never be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān mate. They'll never be able to understand. And remain in darkness, and transmigrate from one body to another, and this business will go on. Indian man (2): But then how will they come up? Prabhupāda: When they tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. When they come to the stage to understand things by surrendering. But they will never surrender. That is their business. Ah? Indian man (4): But the Lord uses a heavy stick, then they'll surrender. Prabhupāda: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by māyā at every moment, but because they are fools, they say "I'm not surrendered." This is... In Bengali is called vihvala. Vihvala.(?) No, no... Shameless. He's being kicked every moment, but he's so shameless, that he's declared, "I'm independent, I'm independent." Shameless. (Bengali) Indian man (3): Just like these dogs around us... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asuras. This is the characteristic of the asura. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still is declaring, "There is no God, I'm independent. I'm independent." Every moment he's dying, and still he thinks, "I shall live forever." This is asura. Pravṛttiṁ ca, nivṛttiṁ ca [Bg. 16.7]. So this is required. Pravṛtti and nivṛtti, to know. Indian man (4): What is pravṛtti? Prabhupāda: Pravṛtti means inclination for doing something. That is called pravṛtti. Indian man (4): Nivṛtti means...? *Prabhupāda: Nivṛtti means to stop. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā*-phalām. Indian man (4): Nivṛtti...? *Prabhupāda: Nivṛttis tu mahā*-phalām. Here, at the present moment... Not at the present moment, always in the material world, the desire is that "I shall become the greatest enjoyer. I shall become king, I shall become minister... And at last I shall become God." (laughter) You see? So this the false pravṛtti. And one who can cut down this rascal propensity, he's successful. But I'm neither king, neither a minister, neither I'm going to become God. I'm a tiny living entity, being kicked by the māyā, like football. When he comes to this understanding, he is in knowledge. Indian man (4): (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Yes. But he is so shameless than in spite of being kicked like that, always, he's thinking, "I'm God, I'm independent, I can do anything," like that. This is asura. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Ah? Indian man: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Prabhupāda: *Indian man (3): Oh, he forgot, and I brought another book. I brought that Siksha*-vadri. Prabhupāda: Ah? Indian man (3): There is the name of Kṛṣṇa in every page. I told you the other day. It's a quota paṇḍita for all Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Read something. Indian man (3): I'll read the beginning, and then from the middle. (reads ślokas) That is the beginning, and how it goes, then... Prabhupāda: So why did that person say that Janardan Swami Narayan is the topmost? Indian man (2): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, that Buddhism. That is not Vaiṣṇavism. Indian man (2): (indistinct) stop them, what he said, (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism. Indian man (2): But he's not Buddhist, he's Vaiṣṇava. Prabhupāda: But he's taking the Buddhist philosophy. Indian man (2): He's not taking the Buddhist philosophy. In what way he has? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, because in the śāstra, in the *Vedas*, it is stated that, sometimes it is recommended animal sacrifice. Indian man (2): He did not want to... Prabhupāda: No, no, he says, even if he stated... Indian man (2): Should not take it. Prabhupāda: No, that means he's denying the authority of *Vedas*. Indian man (2): He's denying the authority of Vaiṣṇava... Prabhupāda: No, no, Vaiṣṇava does not say... Indian man (2): He denied the authority of Buddhist, and not *Vedas*, see what he says... Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you read it. *Indian man (2): Na vaksyam sarva*-tamasaṁ yajña-śiṣṭam abhipacchet.(?) Prabhupāda: Ah! Even it is yajña-śiṣṭam... Indian man (2): Then also you should not eat. Prabhupāda: No. Indian man (2): You should not eat. Prabhupāda: No! Indian man (2): That is what it says. Prabhupāda: That is means denying the authority of *Vedas*. *Vedas* say you can eat meat after yajña. Indian man (2): But he says no, you should not eat. Prabhupāda: But therefore he's denying the authority of *Vedas*. Indian man (2): You should, you should not eat meat even Veda says. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he's denying. Indian man (2): Yes, but doesn't matter. I don't want to eat meat even the way... Even if you sacrifice a goat here and offer... Prabhupāda: You cannot... Indian man (2): Na caiva... Prabhupāda: ...deny the authority of *Vedas*. Indian man (3): *Vedas*... Prabhupāda: You may not eat, that is a different thing. But the Vedic authority... Just like, suppose the law says, "This man should be hanged." If you say, "No, even if he is criminal, he should not be hanged," that means denying the authority of law. You cannot say this. Indian man (4): That's right. All right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): So you must eat their meat if it is... Prabhupāda: No, no, no... You should not eat. Indian man (2): That is what he says... *Prabhupāda: That's... You see? He does not know what is the scheme of Vedas. You cannot stop meat*-eating all of a sudden. But you can raise some restriction. These rascals who are meat-eaters, if you say, "Don't eat meat," he'll never do that. Therefore, "Yes, you can eat meat, just after offering to the goddess Kālī," and in this way, that means, once in the month, that means restricted. Restricted. So, Vedas means they're taking gradually, not that, like a foolish, "You don't do this." You cannot do that. That is Vedic authority. The Vedas are meant for everyone. Those who are meat-eaters, you cannot stop them all of a sudden. Similarly, drunkards. You cannot stop them, drunkards, "Don't drink." They'll not hear you. Therefore restriction. "Yes, you can drink, after offering to the devī," and that means restriction. So what is the meaning of marriage? Because sex like the cats and dogs, stop it. Just get married. In this way, otherwise, you may say "No marriage." Just like, the other day these sannyāsīs come, because saw woman was sitting, they'll not enter. But I saw their teeth was so unclean, and the dress was never washed. But they have got this restriction, no seeing of woman. Indian man (3): (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: You cannot deny the authority of *Vedas*. Suppose you are following ahiṁsā, you cannot say that "State should not anymore hang anybody." That you cannot say. You follow. Indian man (3): Shall I read it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): Vabhicaro na kartavyaḥ pumvi stri...(?) Prabhupāda: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he's decried the authority of *Vedas*. Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected. *Prabhupāda: That... Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam Yes, yajña, I mean to say, criticize the yajña-vidhi. Yajña-vidhi you cannot criticize. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Karma-bandhana. So yajña must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, "This is good, this is bad," that will not help you. Indian man (3): Vetas pi pavitranam svadhinam ca tasam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindha saddhya...(?) Prabhupāda: But why he's making nindā? You don't eat, even it is... Now in the first you said, you don't..., you cannot kill animal, even if it is... Indian man (3): I, I follow even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajña, I am not going to kill it, that's all. That is my personal... Prabhupāda: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws. Indian man (2): This is not decrying the Vedic law... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes... You said, api, even if it is enjoined in the *Vedas*... Indian man (2): I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Why not? It is clear, it is clear. You don't think, but the writing is there. Indian man (3): The writing... Prabhupāda: Writing is there. Indian man (3): The writing can be interpreted in a lot of ways. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no! You can interpret. No, no, no, no. We are not interpreting. Indian man (3): We are not going to take that way. Prabhupāda: We cannot... As soon as you say api, even if it is enjoined in the *Vedas*, don't do it. That means decrying the *Vedas*. What do you think? Indian man (2): You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaiṣṇavas..., we won't do it. Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava is forbidden. Indian man (2): But then, this is a Vaiṣṇava way, forbidden to eat the meat. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But therefore you cannot decry the *Vedas*. Indian man (4): But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of... Prabhupāda: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done... Indian man (4): This is tantra, not Veda. *Vedas* don't want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it... Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man (4): Are you able to do it? Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man (4): So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Hm. Indian man (4): By tantra they're verily killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue. Prabhupāda: Tantra, tantra... I do not know what kind of tantra... Dr. Patel: ...does not believe in killing animal and eating it even... *Vedas* say you can eat, I will not. And I don't mind decrying the *Vedas* that way, if you say so, sir. (indistinct) Vaiṣṇava, I don't think I can allow anyone to be killed. I'm very sorry to say this. Prabhupāda: Hm. Dr. Patel: If the *Vedas* say "Kill," I won't. I won't, don't want that. Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism. Dr. Patel: I don't mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won't kill an animal, being a Vaiṣṇava myself. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the *Vedas*. Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: ...excuse me, I will bring the *Vedas* before you. I have studied. Prabhupāda: You can manufacture your own way... Dr. Patel: I'm not manufacturing, I'm not manufacturing. Nowhere Veda say you kill the animals, and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again. Prabhupāda: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written in injunction of Vedic... Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you're sacrificing your own... Prabhupāda: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. The point is that you may follow. In the *Vedas* there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the *Vedas*. That is the point. *Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaiṣṇava will not say this. The ideal Vaiṣṇava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat even in England as a student of London University*-meat. Prabhupāda: I'm recommending you to eat meat? Dr. Patel: No, you eat the..., indirectly so. Prabhupāda: All right. Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson. Dr. Patel: No, I'm not taking this lesson, going to kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take. Prabhupāda: That is meant for others! Dr. Patel: Ācchā! Not for me. Prabhupāda: All right. Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaiṣṇava you can't... Prabhupāda: I don't say that Vaiṣṇava. Why I'll say? Why you talk like that? Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Swamiji told his disciples not to take meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): (Hindi) Indian man (2): No. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...allow. Indians: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Allowed for the rascals and fools. Dr. Patel: Fools, but we are not rascals. So he... Prabhupāda: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way. Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools. Prabhupāda: Gradually, gradually. Just like... Dr. Patel: As a Vaiṣṇava we can't tolerate meat. Prabhupāda: That is all right, but... Dr. Patel: I can... Prabhupāda: ...you cannot... Dr. Patel: ...not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Even they go, that does not mean they're going to kill animal. Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasāda is offered, they won't take it. Prabhupāda: No, no, yes. Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, "Don't take this prasāda even if it is offered." Prabhupāda: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kālī. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it. Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but... Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that I reject... *Dr. Patel: "My followers do not take meat even kālī*-yajña." Prabhupāda: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda... Dr. Patel: Kālī temple, Kālī temple is not Vedic, but it is Tantric, Tantric. *Prabhupāda: That you say, that you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Nārada*-pañcarātra. *Dr. Patel: That's right, but we are following Nārada*-pañcarātra, aren't we? Prabhupāda: Tantra. *Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaiṣṇavas in India, Nārada*-pañcarātra is very pivot around which we all live on. Prabhupāda: We are not advocating meat eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don't eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the *Vedas*. That you cannot do. Indian man (3): But this is not Vedic, eh... Prabhupāda: This is Vedic! Indian man (3): ...that you can... *Prabhupāda: In the yajña, not that all yajña. But in the... Some yajñas, there is recommendation. It is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Dr. Patel: Yajña-śiṣṭa aśinaḥ. Not meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Aśinaḥ. *Indian man (3): ...mucyante sarva*-kilbiṣaiḥ. Prabhupāda: So this position is there. Those who are rascals and rogues will meat eat. Dr. Patel: But we are not rascals and rogues. Prabhupāda: No, no, those who will eat meat, to bring them gradually to the platform of perfection. That is allowed. Dr. Patel: We are a Vaiṣṇava..., as Vaiṣṇavas we are not allowed to do this. *Prabhupāda: You cannot stop that. Suppose you..., there are so many nonviolence philosophies, Buddha, Jains, but have they been able to stop this meat*-eating? Dr. Patel: The Vaiṣṇavas, they are to only perform those yajñas called... Prabhupāda: Yajñas for satisfaction of Viṣṇu. *Indian man (3): And that, that is also... Viṣṇu*-yajña is there, there is no sacrifice of animals. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you do not know, there is. Indian man (4): Yajña is not necessary at all. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (4): Yajña is only for getting, to gain certain aims. *Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavatam you'll find the dākṣa*-yajña, dākṣa-yajña. Dākṣa-yajña. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Dakṣa Mahārāja. Indian man (4): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is described in the *Bhāgavatam*. Indian man (4): Yajñas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all. *Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. That is our... Indian man (4): The saṅkīrtana be our yajña. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] It is stated in the śāstra, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana*-prāyaiḥ. Kalau, in this age... *Indian man (3): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat*-eaters, nor we do... (laughs) Prabhupāda: He's going in a different way. Indian man (3): As a Vaiṣṇava. No, that is what I'm... Prabhupāda: No, you do not understand, that is the defect... *Indian man (3): That is my misfortune, that is my misfortune because I am a little fixed*-cult man. But then you explain me what I should behave. *Prabhupāda: Suppose you don't believe in meat*-eating, can you stop? Indian man (3): I don't want to stop. For your followers yes, you say don't eat meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): Like that he has told us, "Don't eat meat." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man (3): You don't want to eat, do yajña. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): So don't call it Buddhist. Prabhupāda: But that doesn't... No, this is Buddhist philosophy; you do not know it. Indian man (3): I'm not talking about Vaiṣṇava philosophy and Buddhist... Prabhupāda: This is Buddhist philosophy. That even if the Buddha, Lord Buddha said, "Even if it is recommended in the *Vedas*, I don't accept *Vedas*." That is Buddhist philosophy. Indian man (4): He accepts Veda. He said the next moment. Now we read it, I've read it before you. *Prabhupāda: You'll see, it is stated, nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam is the Vedas. There is recommendation of sacrifice, but you have decried them. Indian man (4): He has not decried them. Devatam, devata te ta vi pranam sadvinam ca satam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindā svadya na ca tapi.(?) Prabhupāda: Hm. So this is nindā. If you say, "Even if it is recommended in the *Vedas*," that is nindā. If you say, "Even if it is recommended by the *Vedas*," that means *Vedas* are mistaken. You are right. You do not know what is the purpose of *Vedas*. Indian man (4): What is the purpose of *Vedas*? Prabhupāda: The purpose is gradually to bring them... Indian man (4): But he... Prabhupāda: ...not that all of a sudden that you say "No, you cannot eat." *Indian man (4): He..., all of a sudden he talks about Vaiṣṇavas who are above all these low*-class fellows. Vaiṣṇavas are much above all those meat-eaters, then who is instructing the Vaiṣṇavas? Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavas should go to sacrifice. (Hindi) Indian man (3): There is no... Hindu, aren't the Hindus... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You are mixing the Hindu, Muslim, and Vaiṣṇava... Indian man (3): I don't think I am so fool like that, to mix up Hinduism with Buddhism. I think you have little be... Prabhupāda: But you don't hear me, that is the difference. Indian man (3): I'm hearing you perfectly well, but I'm very quick to grasp it, that is the misfortune of me. Prabhupāda: You are quick to deviate, that is the point. You do not hear. Indian man (3): How can you... (laughs) How can you say I'm in... *Prabhupāda: That is the... That is your alpa*-medhasaḥ. You cannot understand. What I'm speaking you do not understand. Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: He... That example I'm giving, that the law is that the murderer should be hanged. If you fight, "I don't care for this law, because you are hanging one person," that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point. *Indian man (4): My point is no meat*-eating by Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: You, you... You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death... Dr. Patel: That, that's all right. Prabhupāda: ...but for that reason you cannot condemn the law. Indian man (3): But he's not condemning the law. He said, "Don't make the yajña." He said, "Make the yajña but don't eat the meat." That is not condemning the law. Prabhupāda: All right. [break] You cannot say the law is only for the Vaiṣṇava. Dr. Patel: He does not say that don't... [break] Nonkilling and not... Prabhupāda: You are mistaken there. Dr. Patel: I'm not mistaken. I don't think I'm such a fool as that. Prabhupāda: You're mistaken there, that this yajña is meant for other person, not for you. Dr. Patel: That is why I say that we are not preventing them to do the yajña, but we are not... Prabhupāda: You cannot surrender. Dr. Patel: That is we are not asking them to break the law. Prabhupāda: That is his preventing, that even it is recommended... Dr. Patel: He's not preventing his followers not to eat meat. Isn't it? I think, I have not... Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I'm all right. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...to go and worship any other demigod. Kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they're going to worship. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam. Dr. Patel: Śaraṇaṁ vraja. Prabhupāda: We are simply... Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our... Prabhupāda: Mām ekam. Only Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: So āśrama varṇāśrama dharmo... Cārvāka says. Prabhupāda: Somebody is bigger than Kṛṣṇa. Then what you'll do? Dr. Patel: They're going, "All right, you can talk anything nonsense." It is nonsense, "You are a fool and a rascal, and a rogue and what you are calling so many words." He is that. And they believe him, that's all. Prabhupāda: He yesterday talked like that. Dr. Patel: Then... Then believe it! Indian man (2): They say they're..., Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Swami Narayan. Prabhupāda: Yeah, they talk like that. Dr. Patel: No, I don't think, they are not, they are small boys. Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be, they, representative of the Swami Narayan, they said. Dr. Patel: They have not represented the real thing... Prabhupāda: "Swami Narayan is more than Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: Tomorrow these boys say you are more than Kṛṣṇa, then... Prabhupāda: That's all right, they came to talk with me, representing Swami Narayan. Dr. Patel: I represent Swami Narayan. Let us talk. Prabhupāda: It is difficult to do it. You say something, he says something... Dr. Patel: He's wrong... What Swami Narayan has written is right or wrong. That is his own handwriting. His own writing. Kṛṣṇa... [break] That is the injunction. Those fools are right or I am right? Prabhupāda: Avaiṣṇava muhur jnena puta harir gatam. (?) Dr. Patel: Mm, that's it. Prabhupāda: Śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam. (?) Dr. Patel: Śravaṇam, same thing. Don't hear anything we... Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava does not like to kill, but Kṛṣṇa Himself killed so many demons. Indian man (3): But Kṛṣṇa has got the right to kill. (everyone laughs) Prabhupāda: He induced Arjuna to kill, His devotee. Indian man (2): He was the main killer in that..., on the background. Prabhupāda: Do you think that killing is bad? Indian man (2): No, no, no... Yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is right, and whatever we say is wrong. We say kill the animal is wrong. Kṛṣṇa says kill the animal is right. Okay? Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, I mean to say, do you mean to say killing an animal is bad, and killing a man is not bad? Indian man (2): No, if Kṛṣṇa says, "Kill the man, kill this man," then it's right. If I say "Kill this man," is wrong. Prabhupāda: I mean, Kṛṣṇa killed some animals, also. Indian man (2): Then it is right. Whatever Kṛṣṇa does is right, because He has the power to create, I know. Prabhupāda: That's right, that's all right. Indian man (2): There is nothing that's killed. What is killed? Kill is body, ātmā is sanātana. Prabhupāda: You abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (2): That is what we are abiding, but that is... Prabhupāda: Not killing and not killing. Dr. Patel: That is what I say. Prabhupāda: These are material conceptions. If Kṛṣṇa says, "You kill," you should kill. Dr. Patel: Shall I read this? Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇāvatāra... Prabhupāda: Śāstra can say... Dr. Patel: Some nonsense śāstras are there, who can say... *Prabhupāda: But that is not śāstra. Why you are accepting that śāstra? (laughter) He's nonsense. If he accepts something nonsense śāstra, he becomes nonsense. Our plea is let us learn from the standard book, Bhagavad*-gītā, and study, not bring anything else. That will give us proper guidance. Dr. Patel: [break] ...that is completely verse. *Prabhupāda: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva, rajo, tamo*-guṇa, some of them are śūdras, some of them are kṣatriyas, some of them are vaiśyas, some of them are brāhmaṇa; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the śūdras in the Vedas, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required, for the śūdras, not for you. Indian man (4): No, but then he... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traiguṇya*-viṣayā vedāḥ. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ. Indian man (3): It is the māyā. Prabhupāda: By killing, yes. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Your aim should be to go above this qualities of material. Indian man (4): That is what he wants. Prabhupāda: But *Vedas* are describing... When *Vedas* are describing something for the benefit of the śūdras, because it is meant for the śūdras, you cannot condemn it. Dr. Patel: But then you should not take part in it. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. My point is that something is meant for the śūdras. Dr. Patel: No that's right, but he has not condemned the yajña, he has made the injunction that you must not take part... Prabhupāda: That's right... Just like in a drug shop, there are... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are many kinds of drugs. So something is not meant for a certain patient. But he cannot say, "I don't like this drug." Dr. Patel: Right. (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: That is also drug... Dr. Patel: Right. Prabhupāda: For certain persons, for a certain patient. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: But maybe it was being done by somebody. Indian man (3): They must be... In those days... Those were the departurous(?) days when he was born. Prabhupāda: This thing is being done, I know, in a big temple in Mathurā. When there is big crowd, they put off the electric, and the rascal goes within the woman. I know that. In Vārāṇasī also, in Viśvanātha Temple. They do like this. Indian man (4): I know, I have seen. That is why this injunction... So now you are satisfied that these injunctions are right. Prabhupāda: No, you... My point was that because something is not meant for me, and it is in the law... Dr. Patel: We don't want to proscribe it, we want to... That is what he meant. My followers, Vaiṣṇavas, will not partake into such things. Let others do what they do. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Dr. Patel: But then you became fiery. Prabhupāda: No, we can preach... No, my point was that because it is not applicable to me, I shall condemn. Dr. Patel: That you don't eat, that's not condemning. Let them go and do their own... [break]. Prabhupāda: In the lower status, so they require. Dr. Patel: So, but you are also as weak as I am, both of us, so we... Ācchā. (laughs) Indian man (3): They are wrong, but you are... We are reading what he has written. Prabhupāda: "Swami Narayan is better than Kṛṣṇa." Indian man (4): No, no, that is wrong. That is... You, tomorrow you will say, "He was fool" Suppose these boys tomorrow say... Indian man (3): I'm representing also, he also represents, we both have... We are Vaiṣṇavas bhaktas. Prabhupāda: He accepted that...(laughs) Indian man (4): No, he's wrong, because he has not studied. I have studied. Prabhupāda: Your representative yesterday told me something different. Indian man (4): They are boys. Prabhupāda: What they said? Indian man (2): We are not perfect as disciple... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) This type of mūrti. Indian man (2): (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...the other day that this Swami Narayan, not Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Indian man (4): Because tomorrow we'll say Prabhupāda. That we are teaching, but he died very early. He died at the age of forty*-eight years. *Prabhupāda: That means that his followers are not well*-conversant. Indian man (3): Those who are not following the (indistinct). Indian man (4): But then he was actually living. What type of... Devotee: In England also they are chanting "Swami Narayan," not about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Indian man (3): No, they are also kṛṣṇa*-bhaktas. Devotee: How they are they chanting Swami Narayan's? Indian man (3): They actually work for the Kṛṣṇa only, and they... Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṇa recommends śāstra, harer nāma, harer nāma, harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. So why they should chant "Swami Narayan"? Indian man (4): No, listen... Devotee: He says to chant Kṛṣṇa. But they are chanting Swami Narayan. Prabhupāda: You know, there was a big doctor in Calcutta, (indistinct) Sen. You have heard his name? He will die of thirstiness, still would not drink outside water. Would come home, offer to the Deity, and then drink. I know that (indistinct) Sen. Indian man (3): But he is such a... *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]-Kṛṣṇa. But why one should chant the other name? Kṛṣṇa says satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not any other name. Indian man (3): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: But their teacher, they're chanting "Swami Narayan." They're saying Swami Narayan is better than Kṛṣṇa. What kind of preaching is this? Indian man (4): This is... [break] Prabhupāda: ...nonsense this (Bengali). The people will go to the temple. If they say, if the preacher say that Swami Narayan name should be chanted... Indian man (4): This is directly (indistinct) Swami Narayan. Prabhupāda: "Swami Narayan is better than Kṛṣṇa," then what they learn? Indian man: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In London they have got a branch, and they're chanting.... Indian man: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Swami Narayan. That is my objection. Why they are putting... Indian man (2): "Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan." (laughs) Prabhupāda: What is this thing? "Swami Narayan." Nārāyaṇa is there. Indian man (4): Nārāyaṇa is there. Indian man (2): Swami is their guru and Nārāyaṇa is God, so both, Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda Kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: But that does not mean they should chant. Just like, we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami..." No. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari*-tvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ. Guru is respected as good as Kṛṣṇa, but that does not mean I shall teach them to go and chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami." What is this? Indian man (3): Prabhupāda so much... Prabhupāda: Because he, my disciple respects me as God, that does not mean I'll think I have become God. Indians: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hold some meeting, and you are belonging to the, you asked them, "Why you say like this?" Indian man (4): We are... here I represent them, and you represent... Prabhupāda: No, they're preaching. Indian man (4): Both are Vaiṣṇavas... Prabhupāda: Just like these boys said. Indian man (3): [break] ...all difference here, and they have got no difference at all. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man (3): I would not say that... Prabhupāda: I can understand that. That is not difficult. Indian man (3): Ah? Prabhupāda: So only thing is that why they're preaching against their own principle? Indian man (4): Eka vasinam tapasa tapa ya brataḥ... (?) Prabhupāda: That is my point. That is my point. Everything is there for Kṛṣṇa, but they're chanting "Swami Narayan." Why? Indian man (4): There are... In Swami Narayan's sampradāya there are... Indian man (3): (indistinct) ...you have to follow me." (Indians laugh) Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, there is no different conclusion. The conclusion is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Indian man (4): That is the right. If you... Prabhupāda: That is wanted. They were saying they are sannyāsī,... Indian man (2): They say like that, but it is not... Indian man (4): They were small boys, what will they know about it? Prabhupāda: But why they are... Indian man (3): The boys are taught like this from... Indian man (4): Those days you must follow. Prabhupāda: No, rāmānandī, rāmānandī(?) Indian man (4): These are different. Prabhupāda: They say that they follow... [break] ...impersonal. *Indian man (4): Now, he has given about how brāhmaṇas should do*-all this. *Prabhupāda: Why you recommended Pañca*-upāsana? Indian man (4): I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: That is the impersonalist. Indian man (3): (indistinct) bhakti. Indian man (4): I don't know... Why... Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no... Indian man (2): Pañcarātra... *Prabhupāda: Pañcopāsanam means that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. You can imagine as person like this. This is pañcopāsanam. Sādhu kanam hita taya brāhmaṇa rūpa kalpana, kalpana.(?) "You just imagine one form." But Vaiṣṇava, he's not like that. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Indian man (3): It says in the śāstra, Veda ca rasa... *Prabhupāda: When the question of śāstra comes, shall I read Bhagavad*-gītā or this? Indian man (4): All this things should be read together, because they are complimentary to each other. Everybody needs to... Prabhupāda: We have no time to read the complimentary... Indian man (4): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: ...then what he'll read? *Indian man (4): Tathā śrīmad*-bhagavad-gītā iti. *Prabhupāda: It is not possible that everyone has to read all the corollaries. The one, main... Bhagavad*-gītā you read and learn, that I am stressing. That I am stressing. Indian man (2): That's right. Indian man (3): Perfectly right, but what I say what he has... Finer points. Prabhupāda: Now you say there are seven branches, and they're preaching in a different way. So how people will understand...? *Indian man (3): Because then those people were reading all so many śāstras he narrowed to five. He wanted the Veda you must read, Vyāsa*-sūtra... [break] *Prabhupāda: Beginning should be Bhagavad*-gītā. [break] Pañcopāsanam. Pañcopāsanam is not for the Vaiṣṇava. Indian man (4): Not pañcopāsa, Pañcarātra. Prabhupāda: No, no, Pañc... Pañcarātra is all right. He has recommended the... Indian man (4): Gaṇapati (indistinct) *Prabhupāda (4): Gaṇapati... In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is not recommended. Mām ekam. Indian man: Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Prabhupāda: So, why (indistinct). Indian man (4): Don't say this kind of thing-"It is not recommended." Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Indian man (4): Condemning and not recommending is a different thing. It is not condemned. *Prabhupāda: Avidhi*-pūrvakam means condemned. You are doing... Indian man (4): Sir, my point is this... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Avidhi*-pūrvakam, means... Vidhi-pūrvakam is right. And avidhi-pūrvakam is wrong. The same example. That one has to supply food to the mouth, and if one thinks "There are so many holes, any hole will do," that is avidhi-pūrvakam. [break]...recommended that suppose Gaṇapati worship. Indian man (4): He did not care much about... Prabhupāda: No. Much or less, that doesn't... There is recommendation. Indian man (3): Recommendation or not, bhakti like Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): You are not to do (indistinct). Prabhupāda: What does that mean? Read it again. Indians: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam. Indian man (4): You have come to our narrow path now. When people divide (indistinct). Because those days were different. When people were (indistinct) on stones. Prabhupāda: No, no, I cannot... A chaste woman, you cannot divide her. She must stick to one husband. Indian man (4): No, in his time, people were Vaiṣṇavas... Prabhupāda: You cannot, she cannot say, "I can accept as many husband as required." That is not good. Indian man (4): Two hundred years before. Two hundred years before. [break] Prabhupāda: ...as you worship Durgā, then you have to sacrifice goat. Indian man (4): Ah? Prabhupāda: As soon as you worship Durgā... Indian man (4): (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Whatever. Indian man (4): Durgā, Śiva, Gaṇapati one family. Prabhupāda: So as soon as you worship Durgā you have to follow the rules, you have to make goat sacrifice... Indian man (4): No, no, no. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata it is recommended. In the Bhāgavata it is recommended, that when Kṛṣṇa is asking for Devī to go take birth in the womb of Yaśodā, Kṛṣṇa is inducing that He'll get so many sacrifices. Yes. So that is the (Sanskrit), animal sacrifice. Indian man (4): Therefore (Sanskrit) ah? Vairāgyam neyem aprti śrī kṛṣṇa...(?) He is recommending the fools, the fools who have got no... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) advised to the fools, why the *Vedas* cannot? Indian man (4): *Vedas* they have advised to the fools to (indistinct). But he has advised another fools not to eat it. Prabhupāda: Yes. When you worship Devī, you have to sacrifice goat, then what you will do? Indian man (4): No, no. (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Where this... [break] (kīrtana begins) (end) Morning Walk -- March 30, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: Just like bodily action. Now you feel call of nature. So you have to pass urine. Chandobhai: No, that is correct. Prabhupāda: That's all Dr. Patel: Does not attach. Chandobhai: That action, you're not attached. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: At least, you are, you are... Chandobhai: Udāsī, udāsīno... [break] *Prabhupāda: The sum total is how to become guṇātīta. That is bhakti*-yoga. *Chandobhai: That is bhakti yoga. Last stage of bhakti, finally, is said like that, māṁ ca yo avyabhicāreṇa bhakti*-yogena sevate. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only guṇātīta position. Chandobhai: But these, qualities are the test of that man. Prabhupāda: Eh? Chandobhai: After he attains that, these qualities are the test of that man, how we can test that man? Prabhupāda: No, no, testing, that is also stated. Just like these Europeans, Americans, in their previous position, they had many bad habits. But somehow or other, they have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is their position, guṇātīta. Even by habit they commit something mistake, that is not to be taken into account. Because... Just hear. Just like a fan is moving, and make the switch off. So the switch is off. That is first consideration. And after the switch being off, the fan is moving, that is no consideration. Do you understand? Because the fan was in force, so you, although you have made the switch off, still moving. Chandobhai: Still moving, yeah. Prabhupāda: That is not to be taken into account. Chandobhai: That is not to be... Yes, correct. Because old, past actions. Prabhupāda: Yes! Chandobhai: Understood that the wheel has to move. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: And will stop soon. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That... Because the switch is now off, it will stop. Śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā. Śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā. Because he has taken to the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, therefore his all past business is finished. Although, due to past habit, sometimes you find some mistake, it is not to be taken. Because this thing will go. Chandobhai: This thing will go. That is a part of past actions. Prabhupāda: Very soon. Yes. Very soon. Chandobhai: Because that wheel has to move and it will stop of its own. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaśvad bhavati... What is that verse? Śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā. That? Chandobhai: Śaśvac chāntiṁ adhigacchati, kaunteya pratijānīhi... Prabhupāda: Ah. Na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati. Chandobhai: (quotes Sanskrit in background) [break] Prabhupāda: ...may be callous. Just like some, somebody was asking me... That rascal Bharati's article. Who? That one Australian sannyāsī. So this rascal may speak something, but we cannot stop our movement. You see? Our movement is increasing, all over the world in, in spite of all criticism. We don't care for that. Because we know that we are following the footsteps of predecessor ācārya, that's all right. We don't mind. And actually, it is happening. Otherwise, within six, seven years, so much progress could not be possible. [break] What is the word, exact? Chandobhai and Dr. Patel: Ārambha! Ārambha. Ārambha. Prabhupāda: Ārambha. Chandobhai: Ārambha. (quotes Sanskrit verse that ends arambha parityagi) [break] Prabhupāda: ...its another meaning is "beginning." Dr. Patel: Beginning. That's right. Beginning of work. Prabhupāda: So there is no beginning. Just like it is already taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so why should he take something else, begin here. That should continue. *Dr. Patel: Ārambha*-patavat. Ārambha is a rudanta. Prabhupāda: And another, ārambhara. That is, that is, that is humbug, humbugism, ārambhara. Dr. Patel: Ārambhar means this ārambha. Prabhupāda: Ārambhar. Chandobhai: Sarva-ārambha. Prabhupāda: Ārambha means beginning. So it is already began, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the new thing, you begin this, you begin that? No. No more. That's all right. Final. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Dr. Patel: But even then you have got to eat. You have got to go to public... Prabhupāda: That is going on, that is going on... *Dr. Patel: On these... These ārambha*-parityāgī. You don't take any, any cognizance of these works being done by the body. I think, that is to my mind, the exact meaning. I have not been able to (indistinct). Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. If you have taken seriously Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so something happening due to my past habit, you should not take care of it. It will subside. Chandobhai: Ārambha. Dr. Patel: Sarva-ārambha parityāgī. [break] Prabhupāda: This is the final conclusion of... Final conclusion, that if anyone has taken devotional service seriously, avyabhicāriṇi, avyabhicāriṇi. Avyabhicāriṇi means as instructed by the spiritual master. If one takes this business very seriously, and he's executing that, then he's guṇātīta. That's all. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Chandobhai: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham... Prabhupāda: Brahma means *Vedas*, Brahma means... There are so many things. So many things. So here brahmaṇaḥ, brahmajyoti... People are very much impersonalists. They think realization of brahmajyoti is final. To, just to reply them, this is, this śloka is: brahmaṇo aham pratiṣṭha. Wherefrom this jyoti's coming? This is very common sense. A jyoti does... Just like this jyoti, this clearness, no darkness, wherefrom it is coming? Everyone knows it is coming from the sun. Without this sun, why at night there was no such jyoti? Because the sun is rising, therefore this jyoti has come. Similarly... Dr. Patel: (talking in background) Prabhupāda: Now, why don't you hear? Dr. Patel: I am hearing. Prabhupāda: Why not... Just hear. It is very important point, that jyoti, it must come through some source. Chandobhai: Jyoti has, jyoti has to come through source, correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is confirmed in the Brahmā*-saṁhitā that yasya prabhā. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagadaṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam [Bs. 5.40]. This creation, all the whole creation, even this material, that is depending on the brahmajyoti. Therefore it is said, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is depending on the brahmajyoti. And that is confirmed also in the Bhagavad-gītā: mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4]. This mat-sthāni means... Chandobhai: Within the Brahman. Prabhupāda: Within the Brahman. And this Brahman is the effulgence of body of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: That is... Sahajānanda Swami says continually that you must always, you must never think that Kṛṣṇa is without a body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Without body there cannot be anything, and Kṛṣṇa had body and all this is the brahmajyoti. [break] ...pratiṣṭha. Prabhupāda: Therefore... Chandobhai: Amṛtasyaiva... Prabhupāda: Amṛtasya. Dr. Patel: That the Brahman is amṛta. *Prabhupāda: Amṛta. Brahman. That is confirmed in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So the Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, they are, these, one and the same. But it is the person's realization. Now, common man, they can understand what is this sunshine, but they cannot know what is the sun globe, or what is within the sun globe. Chandobhai: What is within... Yes, correct. Prabhupāda: So those who are satisfied only brahmajyoti, their knowledge is not yet perfect. They do not know wherefrom the brahmajyoti comes, who is the source of brahmajyoti. Chandobhai: So He has stated here. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...as Paramātmā, He's kṣetra*-jña of everybody. Dr. Patel: So He knows the working of everybody. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Kṣetra*-kṣetrajñayor jñānam tad jñānaṁ mataṁ mama. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Tat kṣetraṁ yac ca yādṛk yad*-vikāri yataś ca yat, sa ca yat... [Bg. 13.4]. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...prajña. This point must be clearly understood. Then you go further. A kṣetra... This body is kṣetra. Kṣetra means "the field of activities." Just like a kṛṣana works in his field, and he reaps his result. As he works, he gets the result. Similarly, this body is kṣetra, and we are working with this body. And we are reaping the result. Karmaṇa daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. Karmaṇa. So this is the kṣetra and kṣetra-jña. Now... And next He says that "I am also kṣetra-jña. I am also kṣetra-jña." How He's kṣetra-jña? Because He's Paramātmā. Dr. Patel: He's the presiding... *Prabhupāda: Therefore... Therefore there are two kṣetra*-jñas: one, the jīvātmā, and one, the Paramātmā. The Māyāvādīs do not accept it. They say the only kṣetra-jñaḥ. Jivātmā and Paramātmā the same. Chandobhai: Dvau suparṇā... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is confirmed by the *Upaniṣads*. Chandobhai: Dvau suparṇā are there... Prabhupāda: There are two birds. *Dr. Patel: In Bhagavad*-gītā it is said. *Prabhupāda: Two birds, two birds. Yes. Two birds. Bhagavad*-gītā, it is clearly said. Anumantā upadraṣṭā. One kṣetra-jña is anumantā and upadraṣṭā; *another kṣetra*-jña is not anumantā. He's simply enjoying. *Dr. Patel: But that is... Dvāv imau puruṣau loke kṣaraś cākṣara... kṣaraḥ sarvāṇi bhūtāni kūṭa*-stho 'kṣara ucyate. Uttamaḥ puruṣas tv anyaḥ paramātmety... [break] ...uttama puruṣa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣara and akṣara means conditioned soul and liberated soul. Those who are in the Vaikuṇṭha world, spiritual world, they are all liberated souls. And those who are within this material world, they are conditioned souls. So... Dr. Patel: When I read... Prabhupāda: Now, let us finish. So this should be clearly understood, that in this body the both the Paramātmā and jīvātmā living. Dr. Patel: Stay together, live together. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the Māyāvādīs, they says there is no jīvātmā. The same thing, Paramātmā. That is not. Dr. Patel: Those two birds are living on the same tree. *Prabhupāda: That is the difference. That is the difference. Paramātmā and jīvātmā, what is the difference? Kṛṣṇa says that sarva*-kṣetreṣu bhārata. I... This is very practical, that I am the jīvātmā. I am living in this body. I know the business of my body, pains and pleasures, but I do not know what is the pains and pleasures of your body. You also do not know what is the pains and pleasures... Therefore we are individual. But Paramātmā, because He's there, He knows what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure. Not only you, but all living entities. That is Paramātmā. So those who are falsely claiming that "I am Paramātmā," this is the test: whether you are cognizant of everything? Dr. Patel: Right. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot falsely claim that "I am Paramātmā," or "I am God." Whether you have got this all*-pervading knowledge? This is the only test to the pretenders that he is God, he is Paramātmā. *Dr. Patel: But that is... They will say that kṣetra*-jña, not kṣetra. Mahā-bhūtāny ahaṅkāro buddhir avyaktam eva... Prabhupāda: Now he comes to the material elements. Dr. Patel: Icchā dveṣaḥ sukhaṁ duḥkhaṁ... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is... Dr. Patel: Why they should be in add great...? I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Dr. Patel: These are all mahā*-bhūtāny ahaṅkāra buddhiḥ... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But icchā dveṣaḥ... Prabhupāda: Icchā... The... [break] Mind is also material. Dr. Patel: Saṅghātaś cetanā dhṛtiḥ. Prabhupāda: Now, yes. Cetanā, intelligence, everything, everything. These are all... These are all material. Dr. Patel: That is, what do you call, the liṅga-śarīra. Prabhupāda: But the... Some foolish people accept the intelligence, mind, as spirit. Dr. Patel: No, no, I understand not. Chandobhai: That is Sāṅkhya philosophy. Prabhupāda: Eh? Chandobhai: That is Sāṅkhya philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Etat kṣetraṁ samāsena sa*-vikāram... Now, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir... [Bg. 13.8]. [break] Prabhupāda: ...That is the first thing, ācāryopāsanam. But these rascals, they do not do that. They have no ācārya; *still, they, write comment on Bhagavad*-gītā. You see? This is the rascaldom. Ācāryopāsanam. One must go... Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Unless one accepts ācārya, he does not know anything. Dr. Patel: And then amānitvam adambhitvam... Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand one word please. One word, if you understand, your life will be successful. Don't go further. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the very important thing. *Dr. Patel: Every, every word is important, Bhagavad*-gītā... Why one word? *Prabhupāda: Yes! So ācārya, who is ācārya? Then next question will be: who is ācārya? Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Those who are coming, the ācārya-sampradāya. Śrī-sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya, the four sampradāyas. So unless... Sampradāya vihīnā ye mantrās te viphalāḥ... Unless one comes to the ācārya disciplic succession, whatever nonsense he speaks, it is all useless. This is the most important thing, ācāryopāsanam. *Dr. Patel: Śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma*-vinigrahaḥ. Again I read, eh? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Dr. Patel: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ... [Bg. 13.8]. *Prabhupāda: So amānitvam. Instead of becoming amānitvam, these Māyāvādīs say, "I am God." Just see. This is amānitvam. He falsely claims that "I have become God now." Does it mean amānitvam? And here, Vaiṣṇava says, gopī*-bhartuḥ pāda-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. This is amānitvam. This is amān... "I am servant of the servant." And these rascals are claiming, "I am God." This is amānitvam. Dr. Patel: Adambhitvam. Prabhupāda: How much dambhi, proud, they are! They are claiming to be God. Dr. Patel: Ahiṁsā. Prabhupāda: Just see. Ahiṁsā means he's envious of Kṛṣṇa. He's envious. Not ahiṁsā. His hiṁsā begins that "Why Kṛṣṇa should alone be God? I am also God." Dr. Patel: Kṣāntiḥ... Prabhupāda: So the hiṁsā begins from the Supreme. So all negative. These Māyāvādīs, they are hiṁsā, they are proud, they have no sense of what is amānitvam. This is Māyāvāda philosophy. Dr. Patel: Kṣāntir ārjavam. Prabhupāda: And there cannot be śanti. Because... There cannot be. Śanti must be there. Dr. Patel: Kṣānti. Prabhupāda: Śanti. Dr. Patel: Kṣā, Kṣā. Prabhupāda: Ācchā, kṣānti. Kṣānti means toleration. Toleration. But... Dr. Patel: Ārjavam. Prabhupāda: They, they do not allow Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore there is no kṣānti, no toleration. *Dr. Patel: Ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma*-vinigrahaḥ. Śaucam sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ, indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam... Prabhupāda: Śaucam. Śaucam... Śaucam means yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantaram śuciḥ. Because he does not know what is puṇḍarīkākṣam, he does not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's not śaucam. This is śaucam. Dr. Patel: Sthairyam. *Prabhupāda: Sthairyam means fixed*-up: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. That is sthairyam. *Dr. Patel: Ātma*-vinigrahaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ātma*-vinigrahaḥ. Yes. Dr. Patel: Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam anahaṅkāram eva ca. *Prabhupāda: Anahan... This is the first*-class ahaṅkāra, that "I have become God." *Dr. Patel: Janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Asaktir ana... [break] ...putra*-dāra-gṛhādiṣu, nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam... *Prabhupāda: So they have no, mean, detachment for putra*-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. They talk very big, big words, but attached to the putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. (laughs) This is not knowledge. This is ignorance. The test is there, whether you have become detached from putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. If not, you are in ignorance. You may talk very, very, big, big words. That has no meaning. Yes. *Dr. Patel: Nityaṁ ca sama*-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu, mayi cānanya-yogena... *Prabhupāda: Ah! Again the same thing. The basic principle is mayi cānanya*-yogena bhakti-yogena... *Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī vivikta*-deśa-sevitvam... [Bg. 13.11]. Prabhupāda: This is, this is the basic principle. Without this, everything is false. Everything is false. *Dr. Patel: Vivikta*-deśa-sevitvam aratir jana-saṁsadi, adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ tattva artha... *Chandobhai: Tattva*-jñānārtha... *Dr. Patel: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Artha*-darśanam. *Dr. Patel: Tattva*-jñānārtha-darśanam. When you have perfect knowledge of the tattva jñāna. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is tattva*-jñāna. This is jñāna. This is jñāna. Basic principle of jñāna is ananya-bhakti-yogena. That is the basic principle of jñāna. Then other things will automatically come. Dr. Patel: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. *Prabhupāda: Therefore... Therefore in other place in Bhāgavata: harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. If one is not pure devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. That is not possible. Because here is also same thing. The basic principle is devotion. If that is lacking, then all this show, humbug, it has no meaning. Dr. Patel: No, that is, we have said about the jñāna... [break] ...paraṁ brahma na sat... Prabhupāda: Now, who is that paraṁ brahma? That Kṛṣṇa. Because Arjuna says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma... [Bg. 10.12]. Dr. Patel: Brahman means Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Brahman is jyoti. Prabhupāda: No, paraṁ brahma. Brahmajyoti, that is not paraṁ brahma. Paraṁ brahma is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Paraṁ brahma is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma is Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So paraṁ brahman is Kṛṣṇa. The jñāna means one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he has got knowledge. Otherwise he's a rascal. That's all. Maybe a big rascal or small rascal. Dr. Patel: Like me. Prabhupāda: (laughs) But anyone who does not know... That is confirmed in another place: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is the sign. When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, then it is to be understood that he's really wise. Otherwise... *Dr. Patel: Anādi mat*-paraṁ brahma na sat asat tad ucyate. Neither sat or asat. Neither existence or nonexistence. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Not even by sat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sat and asat. Asat... Cause and effect of this material world. Dr. Patel: Cause and effect. Not existence and nonexistence. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: Cause and effect. *Prabhupāda: Cause and effect. The mahat*-tattva... Mahat-tattva is cause, and this cosmic manifestation is the effect. So beyond that, beyond that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is said: mahat-pādam. The mahat-tattva is lying at His lotus feet. Samāśritā ye pada-pallavaṁ plavaṁ mahat-pādam. Mahat-tattva is lying on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Mahat*-tattva is nothing but the beginning of the... Prabhupāda: It is the total, sum total of material energy. Dr. Patel: Of cosmic energy, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mahat*-tattva. Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Sarvataḥ pāṇi*-pādaṁ tat sarvato 'kṣi-śiro-mukham, sarvataḥ śrutimal loke... *Prabhupāda: Now, we are, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So the, my eyes, my hands, my legs, that is Kṛṣṇa's. Do you see? This is sarvataḥ pāṇi*-pāda. So if we understand this philosophy, that these eyes... Dr. Patel: Belong to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: ...these... Belong to Kṛṣṇa. This hand belongs to Kṛṣṇa. But now, we are under the..., "This is my hand. This is my eye. This is my body." This is illusion. Dr. Patel: Now this "my" should belong to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Everything belongs... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Dr. Patel: Ego must belong to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, with my hands, with my legs, with my eyes, I cannot do anything except serving Kṛṣṇa. How we can do? If the eyes belong to Kṛṣṇa, then how the eyes can be used for other purpose? This is real knowledge. That is explained in the Nārada*-pañcarātra: sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is nirmala. Nirmala eyes. Brahma-bhūta. That is brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. *Dr. Patel: Sarvendriya guṇābhāsaṁ sarva*-indriya vivarjitam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now... *Dr. Patel: Asaktaṁ sarva*-bhūteṣu nirguṇaṁ guṇa-bhoktṛ ca. *Prabhupāda: He... He has got indriyas, indriya. Just like in the Vedas it is stated, apāṇi*-pādo javano gṛhīta. "He has no hands and legs, but He takes whatever you offer." So now, that, as soon as this word is there, that "He accepts whatever you offer," that means He has got hand. Indriyābhāsa. Indriyābhāsa. But not this indriya, the three feet hand. Suppose if you offer me something. You are three feet away. I cannot take it. But Kṛṣṇa is in Vaikuṇṭha. If you offer Him, oh, He can accept. Otherwise... He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Now He is in Vaikuṇṭha and Goloka Vṛndāvana. We cannot calculate where He is. How He's taking? This is material calculation. But He has got such a hand that anywhere you live, He can accept. Otherwise, if He has no hand... Therefore "He has no hand" means He has no this little hand like me. Dr. Patel: He has got no... *Prabhupāda: Unlimited hand. Unlimited hand. That, that you cannot... "How Kṛṣṇa have body, this?" The Māyāvādī philosophers think, "How there can be body? If He has a body, then He has limited potency." He cannot understand that although He has got body, He has got unlimited potency. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. That is different from this body. Because he understands that "There cannot be any body different from this," they say nirākāra. Not nirākāra. He has got body. He has got senses. He has got hand. But not like you. *Dr. Patel: Sarvendriya*-guṇābhāsaṁ sarvendriya-vivarjitam... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarvendriya*-vivarjitam means these rascal hands, legs, are vivarjitam. But He has got His particular type of hands and legs. That they cannot understand. They, their limited knowledge does not allow them to know that there can be another hand which can be extended millions and millions of miles. That they cannot understand. Therefore avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanu... [Bg. 9.11]. They think, "Kṛṣṇa is like us. How He can be God?" *Dr. Patel: Asaktaṁ sarva*-bhṛc caiva nirguṇaṁ guṇa-bhoktṛ ca. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dūrasthaṁ antike ca. Dūrasthaṁ, nobody knows where is Goloka Vṛndāvana, how many miles away. Dūrastha. They cannot calculate. But antike ca, He's within. He can accept your service. Dr. Patel: Avibhaktaṁ ca bhūteṣu vibhaktam iva ca sthitam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Avibhakt... The Paramātmā, He is distributed. That does not mean He has become many. He's still one. Avibhaktam. Although, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61], you cannot calculate, "Now īśvara is now divided, so His original position is now gone." *Dr. Patel: Bhūta*-bhartṛ ca taj jñeyaṁ grasiṣṇu prabhaviṣṇu ca. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis... Prabhupāda: Here... Jyotiṣām api taj jyotiḥ. *Dr. Patel: Jñānam jñeyam jñāna*-gamyaṁ... Prabhupāda: This, this... We have got jyoti calculation of this sun. But the sun is only a reflection of the brahmajyoti. Dr. Patel: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis tamasaḥ param ucyate. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ jñāna*-gamyaṁ hṛdi sarvasya viṣṭhitam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Dr. Patel: Iti kṣetraṁ tathā jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ coktuṁ samāsataḥ, mad*-bhakta etad vijñāya... [Bg. 13.19]. *Prabhupāda: Mad*-bhakta. Not rascals. The mad-bhakta can explain these things, not others. Dr. Patel: Yes. Now, now conclusion. Prabhupāda: Is it clear? Dr. Patel: Yes. Absolutely. I am a rascal. (Prabhupāda laughs) That is, I am reading. Prabhupāda: You are a bhakta. How you can be rascal? Dr. Patel: But sometimes I become. Prakṛtiṁ ca, Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Dr. Patel: This is very important. Puruṣaḥ sukha*-duḥkhānāṁ bhoktṛtve... Prabhupāda: Yes, as you, as you... Just like police. Police will punish you. You will have to suffer. But it is due to your criminal action police has arrested you. You cannot make police responsible for your suffering. Dr. Patel: And here policeman is jīva, no? That is what my difficulty is. Prabhupāda: No. The prakṛti... What is that? *Dr. Patel: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān... [Bg. 13.22]. Prabhupāda: Ah, that puruṣa means jīvātmā, jīvātmā. Dr. Patel: Jivātmā, not Paramātmā. That's right. Prabhupāda: Jivātmā is within this body, prakṛti. This is prakṛti, material nature, jīvātmā. So as you infect the quality of the prakṛti, you become, what is called, entangled. Dr. Patel: And highest line comes in. Prabhupāda: You become... I am explaining. You become entangled. Now, as soon as you become entangled... Suppose you become a dog. Now you suffer. Dr. Patel: But when the dog is there, he does not think he's suffering. He's just like that pig. *Prabhupāda: That is illusion. That is called moha, moha. One is suffering. Everyone is suffering. Suppose a big man, a minister, or the prime minister, or the chief minister, he's also suffering. But he's thinking, "Now I am prime minister." That is illusion. Nobody, nobody is here peaceful. Everyone is suffering. Because threefold miseries. That is the conditional life. And after all, Kṛṣṇa says that "If you are thinking that you are very happy, that you must know at least these things: janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]." How you can get out of it? You'll die. Nobody wants to die. Dr. Patel: Body dies. Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they do... say, "Death is natural." But why don't you like to die? That is suffering. But he thinks, "No, no, it is good." But as soon as I say, "I shall kill you," "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't kill me. Don't kill me." He does not like to die, but... Chandobhai: Very helplessly. Prabhupāda: Helplessly. Just like... Dr. Patel: Swamiji, who dies? Prabhupāda: Now, again you are... Dr. Patel: Because he has got this... [break] Prabhupāda: ...identification is all right, but you must come to the practical point. Then don't treat any patient. You can say, "Who is suffering?" Dr. Patel: "Body." Prabhupāda: "Who is suffering...?" Dr. Patel: We are treating the body. Prabhupāda: "There is no need of taking medicine." Dr. Patel: I am treating the body. I am not in... You are treating the... Prabhupāda: That's all right. That body is there, and you are absorbed in body. Therefore there is suffering. You may say that "I am not this body, and I am not this body," but when the body's going to be killed, you become afraid. Because you are absorbed. Why go beyond this practical point? Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Prabhupāda: Just like everyone knows that you are not the motor car. Everyone knows it. But as soon as there is any breakage in the nice motor car, "Oh, I am gone." Why, where you gone? You are not motor car. But because you are absorbed in the sense that "It is my car, my car, my car," you have become absorbed. So any accident to the motor car, you become unhappy. But everyone knows you are not motor car. Why you become unhappy? This is called māyā. So you are not completely free. So so long we are in this body, so the sufferings of the body is there. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. "Just tolerate." Just tolerate. You don't be mad, but, because "My motor car is now broken." Or, "There is some accident in my house." But you are not house, neither you are motor car. Everyone knows that. But why you have become so much affected? There, therefore tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. You have to tolerate. *Dr. Patel: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti*-stho hi bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān... [Bg. 13.22]. *Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. You are suffering because you have associated with a particular type of material quality. Just like you have associated with some infectious disease. Now you are suffering. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo' sya. Why you affect...? Therefore one should remain always in sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa. What is that verse in the Bhāgavata? Dr. Patel: Upadraṣṭānumantā ca... [Bg. 13.23]. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ātmā, Paramātmā. Yes. Dr. Patel: ...paramātmeti cāpy ukto dehe 'smin puruṣaḥ paraḥ. Prabhupāda: This is... And these Māyāvādī rascals say that the Paramātmā and jīvātmā are the same. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Sarvarthā vartamānaḥ means whatever action we do... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...yoga. But when I come to know that I am eternal part and parcel and engage Myself in the service of the Lord, then I am liberated. Even one may call me, "You are bhangi, you are camara, you are this or that," but I do not belong to these things. I belong... Gopī*-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. That's all. *Dr. Patel: Now, these, these two lines have the... [break] ...anye sāṅkhyena yogena karma*-yogena cāpare. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This sāṅkhya*-yoga... Sāṅkhya-yoga does not mean this atheist Kapila sāṅkhya-yoga. There is another Kapila; *he is imitation. That is Kapila, Devahūti*-putra Kapila. That sāṅkhya-yoga. Sāṅkhya-yoga. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Third Canto. *Dr. Patel: No, karma*-yogena. *Prabhupāda: Karma*-yogena also. Karma-yoga and... Dr. Patel: Any work you do for the sake of Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Dr. Patel: ...is karma*-yoga. And yogena means? *Prabhupāda: Yoga means to connect with Kṛṣṇa. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa*-sambandha. That is yoga. [break] ...in touch with Kṛṣṇa, this Hare Kṛṣṇa. Always in touch. Because the Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa is nondifferent. So if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you are always in Kṛṣṇa, with Kṛṣṇa. Even while walking on the beach, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa means we are walking with Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: And we are reading this Bhagavad*-gītā. Here, we are chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also. Dr. Patel: Chanting, no? Prabhupāda: That is also chanting. Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu... Prabhupāda: The whole world... That is another way explained. *Dr. Patel: Kṣetra*-jña. *Prabhupāda: Kṣetra*-jña, yes. Kṣetra is also there; *kṣetra*-jña is also there. *Dr. Patel: Kṣetra is the tree and kṣetra*-jña is... *Prabhupāda: This body's also. The kṣetra is there, kṣetra*-jña is there. Similarly... Dr. Patel: Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu... *Prabhupāda: Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means the kṣetra*-jña is there. Dr. Patel: Tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Vinaśyatsv avinaśyantaṁ... *Prabhupāda: There is also Paramātmā. It does not mean because he's dog, there is no Paramātmā. There is also Paramātmā. Because Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa does not discriminate that "I shall not remain within the body of dog. I shall remain within the body of a brāhmaṇa only." No. Sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. This is samatā, that... Because a devotee can understand that Kṛṣṇa is there within the dog, within the cat... Simi..., Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Ah. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: That, that samata, he knows that Paramātmā is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ [Bs. 5.35]. But that does not mean paramāṇu has become Paramātmā. Daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. This is rascaldom. This is rascaldom. Daridra is daridra. But you know, within the daridra, there is Nārāyaṇa. That is another thing. But that does not mean Nārāyaṇa has become daridra. This is rascaldom. Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) Guest 3 (Indian man): You can say it is no good. Nārāyaṇa... *Prabhupāda: This rascaldom is going on. Daridra*-nārāyaṇa. What is this nonsense? Nārāyaṇa has become daridra? Dr. Patel: No, but my one point is there. You may call me a fool even. I don't mind. But everything is covered by God. Even so in daridra, that is covered by God. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is rascaldom. Everything is covered by God. But that does not mean everything is God. Dr. Patel: I did not say everything is God. I said everything is... Prabhupāda: That everyone knows. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is not a very new thing. Dr. Patel: So, so daridrata is also covered by... Prabhupāda: Yes, without, without God, there cannot be anything. Dr. Patel: There should be an ounce of Nārāyaṇa... Prabhupāda: That does not mean... That I have already explained. But that does not mean he has become Nārāyaṇa. Dr. Patel: I don't say he has become Nārāyaṇa. *Prabhupāda: But they, they say, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. They say, the rascals say like that. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...difficulty. All rascals, they have become leaders. They have no knowledge, and they become leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaos. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa... Doctor Shah. Mister Shah? Kṛṣṇa says... Dr. Shah: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: ...that evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Unless one comes to the paramparā system, he cannot understand the knowledge. But these rascals, without in the paramparā system, they interpret. Dr. Shah: According to you, how many paramparās are there? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Shah: How many paramparās are there? Prabhupāda: No, no, how many, don't take many. Take one. Dr. Shah: One, yes. Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna. That is a fact. Dr. Shah: Oh, that way also, he understood(?). Prabhupāda: Yes. So as Arjuna understands, you take that. But all the rascals, they are going to understand Kṛṣṇa which is not spoken by Arjuna. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. Do they accept that? Dr. Patel: They must accept. *Prabhupāda: Then why they should comment? Poke them in the... When he's rascal and does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa. Why should you write comment on Bhagavad*-gītā? Let him do his own business. Why you should come here? That is our protest. Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Everyone has got a right to comment. Prabhupāda: Just like he's a medical man. He's doing something. If a storekeeper comes... "Doctor Shah," (Hindi) What is this nonsense? What you are? You cannot say... He's a lawyer. If I say, "Mister Lawyer, why don't you accept this law?" will you accept? Chandobhai: All the great ācāryas have commented it. Prabhupāda: Yes! Chandobhai: Madhvācārya... Prabhupāda: You you, you... Yes! That you should follow. That you should follow. You should follow Rāmānujācārya. Yes. Ācārya... Ācāryopāsanam. Even Śaṅkarācārya. Yes. Those who have been accepted ācāryas, then... Then you accept. But how one becomes ācārya? When he comes to the paramparā system. He cannot become all of a sudden ācārya, without caring for... *Chandobhai: There are so many commentaries on Bhagavad*-gītā, Upaniṣads, Vedānta... Prabhupāda: Just like this Dayānanda, he did not care for anyone. He became ācārya. He started. Chandobhai: As I understand, or I am given to understand is that... [break] ...they accepted it... Prabhupāda: The... [break] That is not required now. For the time being. That is not required now. [break] *Dr. Patel: ...bhāvam eka*-stham anupaśyati, tata eva ca vistāraṁ brahma sampadyate tadā [Bg. 13.31]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... Just these elements, material elements, bhūta, they are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he does not take anything as material. Because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So Kṛṣṇa's energy means... What is called? Dr. Shah: Property. Prabhupāda: No, there is a verse. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. Abhedaḥ. Śakti means energy, and the śaktimān... That... śaktimān is called śaktimat. So because it comes from the śaktimān, śaktimān, the all spirit, therefore those who are very advanced devotees, for, in their vision, there is nothing material. Chandobhai: There is no separation. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing. Abheda. Because it is admitted that bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. So this is śakti. And śaktimat is Kṛṣṇa. So when it is emanating from Kṛṣṇa... Therefore it is called inferior. Inferior. Inferior. He does not say... Indian 3: Because it is not possible without śaktimān. Prabhupāda: Without śaktimān. [break] Devotee: : "...bodies, he attains to the Brahman conception. Thus he sees that beings are expanded everywhere." That's the same verse. But what does this mean, "thus he sees that beings are expanded everywhere"? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere there is living being. [break] *Dr. Patel: ...avyayaḥ, śarīra*-stho 'pi kaunteya na karoti na lipyate. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the... Śarīra*-stho 'pi. Because it is said Paramātmā and jīvātmā, they are, both of them are in this body, that does not mean the Paramātmā has become like jīvātmā. Or jīvātmā has become Paramātmā. This is nonsense. Although śarīra-stha, he doesn't, he's not affected by the pains and pleasures of this body. That, that is, that is the defect of this daridra-nārāyaṇa philosophy, that although He has entered the body of a daridra, it does not mean He's affected by the quality of the daridra. But they are thinking, "Oh, Nārāyaṇa has come as daridra. Let me give something." This is their philosophy. That means Nārāyaṇa is now affected with this daridrata. [break] Dr. Patel: Annakūṭa (Gujarati) [break] Prabhupāda: ...we do not feed anybody. *Dr. Patel: You may be feeding, but others are throwing it away. That is why they have said daridra*-nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: That is... Others are throwing, others are doing this, this... That is not considered. Dr. Patel: But they have not seen you doing it, you see... *Prabhupāda: Dari... Why not first of all offer to real Nārāyaṇa and then distribute to the daridras? [break] First of all try to understand that... Just like we have got prasāda distribution program. So... But that does not mean that we shall say, "We are feeding daridra*-nārāyaṇa." We are offering to Nārāyaṇa and then feeding to the... Dr. Patel: They are... [break] Prabhupāda: No, no. You do not talk. You do not know. You do not know. Don't talk. Please stop. I know very well, better than you. Dr. Patel: How? Tell me. Explain. Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can know? You take it; because you do not know, you take it from me. Dr. Patel: But I, I, I can't take it without you explain me. How I take it? Tell me. Prabhupāda: That brain will require three hundred years. Your brain having developed, then you will understand. Dr. Patel: I have developed, brain is already developed fifty... [break] Prabhupāda: (angrily) No, you said immediately What is the use of offering Nārāyaṇa in the temple..." Dr. Patel: I did not say that! Prabhupāda: Yes, you said. Dr. Patel: I did... No, you have misunderstood! I said... I won't submit to wrong things. I will submit to right thing! Prabhupāda: No, no. And that... But you do not know what is right thing. That is your fault. *Dr. Patel: Daridra*-nārāyaṇa is a fact. In India. And I am going to uphold it! Prabhupāda: Now, you see, you are prescribing that "Why they are offering in the temple?" "Why you are offering in the the temple? Why not the daridras?" Dr. Patel: You must offer in the temple. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...does not mean his nārāyaṇa*-seva is null and void because he cannot distribute to the poor. Dr. Patel: No, no, that I did not say. Prabhupāda: Try to understand first this! Chandobhai: Ha, just, just be quiet. *Prabhupāda: His nārāyaṇa*-seva is there. Dr. Patel: I understand him. Prabhupāda: You will not allow anyone to speak. But you talk nonsense. Dr. Patel: But you! You won't...! You...! *Prabhupāda: No, no! No, you try to understand! That because he cannot distribute food to others, that does not mean his nārāyaṇa*-seva is null and void. Dr. Patel: I did not say that sir! Prabhupāda: Then why you are talking this? Dr. Patel: I did not say that and you misunderstood me! That is where I am very... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...does it mean his nārāyaṇa*-seva is wrong? *Dr. Patel: I don't say that nārāyaṇa*-seva is wrong! Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Dr. Patel: I did not say that. [break] ...should be given to the people who need it. Prabhupāda: No, that is your prescription. But annakūṭa, when the annakūṭa is there, the prasāda is there, either you eat or I eat, it doesn't matter. Dr. Patel: It should be given... [break] Prabhupāda: ...attitude. You want to dictate to everyone, although you do not know anything. Dr. Patel: But you... Prabhupāda: Yes! That is your... Now, you see, understand. Dr. Patel: I understand... Prabhupāda: He has performed the annakūṭa ceremony. Either you eat or I eat, where is the difference? Dr. Patel: Great difference. [break] ...what way? Prabhupāda: Because you do not take prasādam, therefore you are not devotee. Dr. Patel: You... I take this much prasādam. They need that much prasāda. That is what I mean to say otherwise. Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot dictate. Prasāda, prasāda, prasāda will be distributed without discrimination. Dr. Patel: Say you are hungry... Dr. Shah: No, he's saying the same thing. He says without discrimination it is... [break] ...prasādam is... Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor! Dr. Patel: Everyone is poor before God... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...but those people who are hungry... Prabhupāda: But why you dictate? Dr. Shah: That's a different thing. Prabhupāda: That is... Dr. Patel: I don't dictate! Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it should be given to the poor man. You say like that. [break] The spiritual food should be distributed to everyone, without any discrimination. Dr. Shah: To everyone, without any discrimination! [break] Prabhupāda: It is meant for spiritual understanding. Dr. Patel: That's right. That I agree. *Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hanir asyopajāyate. So anyone who is spiritually poor, he should be given prasādam. It doesn't matter... [break] That, that makes it clear. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means there is no discrimination... (end) Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...increase your attachment. And that is also stated in the Fourth..., vīta*-rāga-bhaya... man-mayā mad-āśrayaḥ... Mr. Sar: Samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu. *Prabhupāda: So this is the process. If you want to know God*-Kṛṣṇa means God-then this is the process. What is that? Mayy āsakta. *Dr. Patel: Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ. Prabhupāda: Mayy āsakta. *Dr. Patel: Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ partha... Mr. Sar: Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Prabhupāda: This is yoga practice also. Yoga. Yoga means to concentrate the mind on a subject matter. So we should meditate upon Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta. Then gradually you'll increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. And that is the perfection of life. The perfection of life, the symbol is in Vṛndāvana. Because all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, they were very, very, much attached to Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Sar: Attached to Kṛṣṇa were. *Prabhupāda: The cowherd boys, the girls, the elderly persons, the trees, the flowers, the land, the birds, the beasts, the cows*-their center was Kṛṣṇa. So we have to follow their footprints, how to... We have got already attachment. Mr. Sar: Yes. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Prabhupāda: No, attachment we have got for material things. That we have to transfer. This is yoga practice. Mr. Sar: That is yoga practice. Correct. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yoga indriya*-saṁyamaḥ. Yoga, the... I think it is Patañjali sūtra. Guest (1): Yoga citta bhūti yoga. (?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Citta bhūti... Guest (1): Yoga citta bhūti nirodha. *Prabhupāda: Nirodha. So our activities are now materially centered*-how to satisfy the senses. All these so-called improvements, material improvements, means how to satisfy the senses. So this aśaktiḥ, attachment, for material sense gratification... Guest (2): Has to be transferred. *Prabhupāda: To Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Mayy āsakta*-manaḥ partha. This is yoga. This is bhakti-yoga. *Mr. Sar: It is said, jñānaṁ te sa*-vijñānam. Prabhupāda: But it can be done mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśrayaḥ, to take shelter. "Taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa," you can make this meaning or mad-āśrayaḥ means "one who has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa." Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa. Correct. Correct. That is correct. Guest (1): Mad-āśrayaḥ means āśrayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Either you... Directly it is not possible to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore mad-āśrayaḥ means "one who has taken shelter of Me." That is paramparā system. You take shelter of Him. Then the result will be asaṁśayaḥ. Passerby: Hello. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Asaṁśayaḥ means at the present moment... Guest (1): Without any doubts. Prabhupāda: No... People are in doubt whether there is God, or "If there is God, He might have died by this time." So there are so many... (laughs) Yes. When I first went to U.S.A., the theory was "God is dead." But when I began to speak, they realized, "No, God is not dead. God is with Swamiji." They wrote. They wrote articles. So asaṁśayaṁ... Mr. Sar: Samagraṁ māṁ. From all aspects. *Prabhupāda: From all aspects. Yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu. So Kṛṣṇa is speaking about Himself. We can speculate about God. That way we'll never be successful. Because we have got limited senses. Therefore you hear from Kṛṣṇa about Kṛṣṇa. This is called bhakti*-yoga. *Mr. Sar: And He wants to tell the jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa*-vijñānam [Bg. 7.2]. "What I have realized, I tell you." Prabhupāda: No, not realized! Guest (1): Experienced. *Prabhupāda: Sa*-vijñānam, how it can be practically applied. Mr. Sar: Yes, how it can be practically applied. Prabhupāda: Not that he has realized. He's God. He's already realized. *Guest (1): Sa*-vijñānam means... Dr. Patel: Matter of knowing, application. Mr. Sar: Application. Prabhupāda: Practical. Mr. Sar: Practical application. Prabhupāda: Just like practical science. If you want to pass B.A. examination, you have to appear for theoretical and practical, both. Dr. Patel: Theory and practice both. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this bhakti*-yoga means to know God, at the same time, practically employ yourself in the service of God, or in the transaction between God and yourself. That is vijñānam. Sa-vijñānam. Guest (1): What is the distinction between jñāna and vijñāna? Prabhupāda: Jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical knowledge. Simply to know "God is great," that is not sufficient. Guest (1): No, that is theoretical. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is theoretical. You must know how great He is. That we have to learn from the śāstras, from the guru, how great He is. Just like in the Brahma*-saṁhitā, Vedic, yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. He's the source of all material elements. In Him everything stays, and after annihilation, everything goes into Him. This is one understanding. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Mr. Sar: Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. *Prabhupāda: In this way, from Vedas, from guru, from saintly persons, we have to understand. Sādhu guru śāstra vākya. Sādhu means who speaks strictly on the śāstra. Guru also speaks strictly on śāstra. Śāstra is the medium. Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim avāpno... [Bg. 16.23]. Therefore we protest. Unless there is something mentioned in the authorized śāstras we don't accept it. Guest (1): Is it nityaḥ anityānām or nityaḥ nityānām? Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānām. Plural number. Dr. Patel: Plural, yes. Guest (1): No, no, that's right. Prabhupāda: Plural number. Guest (1): Permanent. Permanent, impermanent. *Prabhupāda: Both of them permanent. No, no, no. Permanent... The jīvas and the Supreme Lord, both of them are permanent, nityā. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Just like nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. It is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. Eternal, always existing. And this material word has been described: asasvataḥ. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvataḥ. Dr. Patel: Aśāśvatam. Prabhupāda: Aśāś... It is not permanent. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It appears and disappears. So because nityo nityānām, there is transaction between the nitya, the Supreme Nitya, Kṛṣṇa, and the... Dr. Patel: Cetanaś cetanānām. *Prabhupāda: And the subordinate nityas, the living entities. So there must be one place also where this transaction takes place. Because this is anitya. This material world is anitya. So how the transaction between the nitya and nityānām can take place? Because the place is anitya. Therefore there must be a place which is nitya. There must be place. That is Vaikuṇṭha dhāma, spiritual world. So by practicing bhakti*-yoga scientifically, by practical understanding, practical application, yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, either at the shelter... Mr. Sar: Anyaj jñātam neha bhūyo... Prabhupāda: Eh? Mr. Sar: Anyaj jñātam avaśiṣyate. Prabhupāda: Ah. Then anyaj jñātavyam. No. Then you become perfect. No more knowledge. Mr. Sar: No more knowledge is required. Prabhupāda: Yes, knowledge is perfect. Mr. Sar: Final Prabhupāda: Final, yes. Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam etaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is also Upaniṣad. Yasmin vijñāte. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavanti. Then you have got full knowledge. And that is also stated in the Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyam yo janāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti... [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Simply if you understand Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa, tattvataḥ, in truth, then you are, your business is finished. Mr. Sar: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. Prabhupāda: Yes, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. First of all, so many millions and millions of living entities are there. They are not interested. They are just like animals: "Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." Nobody's interested what is the success of life, siddhi. They do not know. They think, "If I..." Now, especially in this age, if you can eat sumptuously then it is siddhi, all siddhi. Yes. Udāraṁ bharita, svārtham udāraṁ bharita. That just we see people are so lazy. If they can eat their daily food some way or other, begging, borrowing and stealing, just like animals... *Dr. Patel: They have got ūdara-śiṣṇu*-parāyanaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Parāyanaḥ. So they think, "Now my day's business is finished. Now I have eaten." And dakṣyaṁ kuṭumba*-bharaṇam. And if one man can maintain a family of four, five, men, "Oh, he's Mahārāja Dakṣa." Mahārāja Dakṣa, you know? He was a great personality. He was performing yajñas. So this is Kali-yuga. Even they will not be able to maintain a wife, a few children. There is no shelter. I have seen in, all these things in western countries. They have no fixed up. Just like animals. The animal also loitering in the street or in the jungle; they are loitering in a great jungle, a great city. That's all. Mr. Sar: Yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ [Bg. 7.3]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Māyāvādīs cannot understand. Although they have come to the point of siddha, still they cannot understand. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. They are siddhas because they have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This much they have understood. But still they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Although they are trying... Dr. Patel: Kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah, tattvataḥ. They do not know. They say,"Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra." God is nirākāra. "I am as good as God." These theories, encumbrous theories... because they do not know. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Dr. Patel: Kaścin māṁ vetti... Mr. Sar: Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ... *Prabhupāda: So when one has come to this knowledge perfectly, that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi," that is brahma*-bhūta stage. So, so after brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20] stage, there are so many other things. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. Dr. Patel: Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Prabhupāda: These bhūteṣu. *Mr. Sar: Mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. *Prabhupāda: Then he comes to the bhakti*-yoga. Not that only daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā, not dhani-nārāyaṇa-sevā. Dr. Patel: You came out with that. Prabhupāda: No, no that is, that is the deficiency. If daridra is Nārāyaṇa, why not the dhani? Dr. Patel: Again, we are not (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to accept. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. A devotee is equal. Either he's daridra*-nārāyaṇa or dhani-nārāyaṇa. *Mr. Sar: Dhani*-nārāyaṇa, yes. Prabhupāda: It is not that... Mr. Sar: Both are equal. Prabhupāda: Both are equal. Mr. Sar: Either poor or rich. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Devotee's equal, whether poor or rich. Prabhupāda: That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Why there should be distinction? Mr. Sar: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Astadhā, that's the lower prakṛti of God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, so now the study, first study, begins from material point of view: Wherefrom the sky came? How the sky came into existence? First of all sky. Then, from sky, there is sound. Then, from sound there is air. From air, there is... Along with these creations... the sky creation means the air creation also, the reception of the sound. So in this way it is all described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam very nicely, how creation took place. Then, ultimately, we come to the land, where all the qualities of other elements are there. There is sound. There is touch. There is vision. There is smell. Everything is there. So... And the subtle matters. Mind, citta, intelligence, then buddh... intelligence. Then false ego. This is... At the present moment, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept of life: "I am American." "I am Indian." "I am brāhmaṇa." "I am kṣatriya." This is false ego. He's not, neither of them. Because he's spirit soul, a different identity. So these, how the subtle mind, intelligence, are working, one should know. How transmigration of the soul takes place? By the action of mind, intelligence and ego. They do not know. There is no such science. There are so many universities all over the world. But who is studying all these things? The psychologists, they have studied a little more about thinking, feeling and willing. That's all. But they do not know how he is working, how he is carrying the subtle soul to other body. That they do not know. Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tu... Guest (2): Why do you not explain that? Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Why do you not explain that about subtle being carried forward? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is going to come now. Prabhupāda: Subtle body... Just like your body at night is on the bed, but you are carried by the thinking, feeling, intelligence to somewhere else. Is it not? So how are you are carried? You are actually lying on the bed. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is carried by the subtle body. Similarly, death means that this body stops working. But the subtle mind... Exactly in the same way. Just as while you are sleeping this gross body has stopped to work, but the subtle body is working. Dr. Patel: That is in, I mean, svapna. Prabhupāda: Svapna, yes. Dr. Patel: But that does not work in deep sleep. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: In deep sleep it does not work, no? Prabhupāda: This sleep means temporary. Again the subtle mind, intelligence, come back. So death means no more coming back. It goes elsewhere. That is death. Is it clear? Eh? Lilavati: How is it possible to forget? Prabhupāda: Eh? Lilavati: The subtle body... Prabhupāda: Yes, you forget. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayo. You forget. When you dream, you forget that you have got this gross body and you are the father of such and such or mother of such and such. Dr. Patel: Because this is all due to mind only. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind, mind forgets. The subtle body works. Similarly, we are dying daily. That is also death. Dr. Patel: Nitya pralaya. *Prabhupāda: Nitya pralaya. But... When... Now, because the body is fit, therefore we come again to enjoy with the body, kṣetra. We come to the kṣetra. Just like you are tilling some land, but when it becomes useless, you cannot till. You have to go elsewhere. Suppose it is overflooded. You cannot work there. Similarly, death means when the mind, intelligence, along with the soul, cannot work in this body, he has to go to some other body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dr. Patel: That is when the prarabdhaḥ... Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be decided by the prarabdhaḥ and everything. So in this way, death means this gross body, no more working. That's all. Dr. Patel: Subtle body lives always. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: Till, till it is, I mean, liquidated from the māyā's clutches and... Prabhupāda: Yes. Till... Dr. Patel: ...comes into the Goloka with Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The vīta*-rāga. When you, when you are completely freed from all attachment of this material world, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Dr. Patel: Mām eti. Prabhupāda: Mām eti. Mr. Sar: Yadā sarve prabhur jante kāmāni manaḥ śaśvataḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you do not come again. Mām eti. You go back to home, back to Godhead. *Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām, jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho... [Bg. 7.5]. Prabhupāda: (Aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Sar: ...yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Dr. Patel: That is consciousness, the consciousness... Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: The aparā prakṛti. This is... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. *Dr. Patel: Para*-prakṛti. Prabhupāda: Not consciousness. Consciousness is also matter. Consciousness... Dr. Patel: There are two prakṛtis. *Prabhupāda: Prakṛti... That prakṛti's soul. That prakṛti is soul, para*-prakṛti. *Dr. Patel: Para*-prakṛti, yes. *Prabhupāda: Soul is also prakṛti. Soul is not puruṣa. The Māyāvādīs, they consider soul as puruṣa. But it is spoken in the Bhagavad*-gītā as prakṛti. Prakṛti... Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho [Bg. 7.5]. Jīva-bhūtā, the soul which is now covered with this material body is called jīva-bhūtā. Mr. Sar: Apareyam itas tv anyāt. Prabhupāda: So therefore it is decided that both these material elements and the soul, both of them are prakṛtis. One is superior; another is inferior. Dr. Patel: Aparā prakṛti is soul. Mr. Sar: No, no,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Aparā is matter. Prabhupāda: Matter, yes. Dr. Patel: The para... Mr. Sar: The para is the soul. Prabhupāda: Para is the soul. *Mr. Sar: Jīva*-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho. That is also prakṛti word. Dr. Patel: Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. Prabhupāda: And... No, no. What is the...? What is the proof of the soul? Now, yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. One who is working with this inferior energy. Just like I am working with this body. Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior energy. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior prakṛti. Prabhupāda: Yes, working, working. One is the worker, and another is the working ingredient, prakṛti. Dr. Patel: Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. Prabhupāda: Jagat. Because... Dr. Patel: That means the jagat is being held by that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because... This Bombay city is important because there are so many para*-prakṛtis. If there was no living entity, who cares for the Bombay city? *Dr. Patel: So living entity is the para*-prakṛti. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mr. Sar: Oh, living entity is the para*-prakṛti. Prabhupāda: Para. But prakṛti. But it is prakṛti. It is not puruṣa. Therefore this prakṛti is trying to become puruṣa here. That is illusion. Dr. Patel: Or, or people calling prakṛti as puruṣa is Māyāvāda. *Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. Prakṛti, jīva, yayedaṁ dhāryate ja... They are working... They are trying to enjoy. But... They are trying to be enjoyer. But that is not possible. Prakṛti is enjoyed. Just like strī*-puruṣa. Puruṣa is enjoyer, and strī is enjoyed. Similarly, prakṛti is used for the satisfaction of the puruṣa. So if the jīva is prakṛti, then the puruṣa, puruṣa is the Supreme Person. Therefore his business is to satisfy the Supreme Purusa. This is bhakti-yoga. Guest (1): Then, then isn't it sāṅkhya? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is sāṅkhya. Dr. Patel: Prakṛti trying to satisfy puruṣa is a sāṅkhya philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is sāṅkhya. This is sāṅkhya philosophy. Mr. Sar: Jīva is the prakṛti. Prabhupāda: Prakṛti. Mr. Sar: Oh, jīva is prakṛti. Ah. *Prabhupāda: And the Māyāvādī philosophy, they say it is puruṣa. Therefore... Therefore aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ. The Māyāvādīs, Māyāvādīs are described as aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Dr. Patel: Buddha was also an avatāra of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Oh... And in Bhagavad*-gītā it is also said, abuddhayaḥ. What is that śloka? Mr. Sar: Abuddhayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Manyante mām abuddhayaḥ. Mr. Sar: Abuddhayaḥ. Prabhupāda: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ ma... Mr. Sar: Manyante mām abuddhayaḥ, param... Prabhupāda: Abuddhayaḥ. So these Māyāvādīs are abuddhayaḥ. They are not intelligent. Mr. Sar: No intelligence. *Prabhupāda: And in Bhāgavata it is said, aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ. The plural number is there, aviśuddha, that "intelligence is not yet clear." Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Ye 'nye 'ravindakṣa vimukta-māninaḥ. But they are thinking that they have become liberated. Now you call... They address amongst themselves, "Nārāyaṇa." "Nārāyaṇa." Mr. Sar: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: They are two yoni. *Prabhupāda: Now, etad yonīni, all kinds of species or forms of life, or whatever you see, they are simply combination of this para*-prakṛti and aparā-prakṛti. But both the prakṛtis coming from Kṛṣṇa, janmādyasya yataḥ, He is the actual, actual cause of everything. Mr. Sar: Ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ... Prabhupāda: Ah. Prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā. But prabhavaḥ, prabhavaḥ, as Brahmā, creation, as Viṣṇu, maintenance, as Śiva, dissolution. Mr. Sar: Destroyer. Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of Brahmā, Viṣṇu... Aham ādir hi devānāṁ [Bg 10.2]. Aham ādir hi devānāṁ. Dr. Patel: So He is, in a way, all the three. Mr. Sar: He's all the three. Yes, He's all the three. Prabhupāda: Yes, He's not only three, He's many. Mr. Sar: And above them, and above them, and above them. Prabhupāda: He's many. Eko bahu śyāma. Not three. But in the material world that three may be the beginning. But there are many. Mr. Sar: Eko bahu śyāma. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Eko bahu syām. Ahaṁ kṛtsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Prabhupāda: Ah. Now... Because He's the ultimate cause, therefore no more superior than Him. Dr. Patel: "Nothing beyond Me." Prabhupāda: "Nothing beyond Me." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. *Mr. Sar: Mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ sūtre maṇi*-gaṇā iva. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Because He's the original cause, therefore everything is depending on Him. That is explained in the Ninth Chapter, I think. mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta... The avyakta*-mūrti also He is. That is another feature, another feature. But mayā, the central feature is the person, Kṛṣṇa. *Mr. Sar: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ, praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu... [Bg. 7.8] Prabhupāda: Now, those who cannot realize the supreme cause, they are instructed how to realize. How to realize... If, while drinking water, you think, "Now this taste is Kṛṣṇa," raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. He says that "I am the taste of the water." So everyone is drinking water. There is no man who does not drink water. At least. So if he remembers, "Now, the taste, this taste is Kṛṣṇa," then he remembers Kṛṣṇa. And that is bhakti. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ [SB 7.5.23]. Even by remembering, he becomes a devotee, gradually. *Mr. Sar: Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. And even if you cannot understand this, that how the taste of the water becomes Kṛṣṇa, all right, you see the sunlight. You inquire, "Wherefrom the light is coming?" Then you come to Kṛṣṇa. And if you are not foolish, ordinary person, if you are Vedantist, then try, "the oṁkāra, Myself." Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam... He's learned. He's thinking, "Nirākāra." "No, I am. Praṇavaḥ, the oṁkāra, the beginning of all Vedic mantras, the oṁkāra, that I am." *Dr. Patel: Praṇavaḥ sarva*-bhūt... *Mr. Sar: Sarva*-vedeṣu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Śabdaḥ khe pauruṣaṁ nṛṣu. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Śabdaḥ khe. *Prabhupāda: And... Yes. Śabdaḥ khe. In the sky. So in the sky there is śabdaḥ. As the aeroplane goes, there is śabdaḥ, (makes imitative sound) guraguraguragura... He can remember Kṛṣṇa. Is it very difficult? You see. Bhakti*-yoga, how nice it is! When the aeroplane is passing, there is guragura śabdaḥ, you find Kṛṣṇa. When you are tasting water, you find Kṛṣṇa. When there is sunlight, you find Kṛṣṇa. When there is moonlight, you find... When you're chanting Vedas, you find Kṛṣṇa. So how you can be without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It is simply foolishness that it cannot be done. No. The how it can be done, that Kṛṣṇa personally is teaching. Learn it. And do it. Mr. Sar: Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau. *Prabhupāda: There are two kinds of smell, bad smell and good smell. So when you smell a nice flower, puṇya*-gandhaḥ, you remember Kṛṣṇa. "Here is Kṛṣṇa. Here is Kṛṣṇa." Puṇyo-gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. Mr. Sar: Tejaś cāsmi vibhāvasau. Prabhupāda: When we, when you find vibhūtimat sattvaṁ, a very powerful man, a powerful elephant, you should, you know that "There is Kṛṣṇa. This power is Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: This is standard nyāya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: *Prabhupāda: So where is the difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa? (laughs) Every moment you can remember Kṛṣṇa. Every moment you can see Kṛṣṇa, provided you have got eyes. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Santaḥ. So you have to become a santaḥ, perfect santa. Then you'll see Kṛṣṇa always. *Mr. Sar: Jīvanaṁ sarva*-bhūteṣu tapaś cāsmi tapasviṣu. Dr. Patel: The very life of every individual is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Jīvanaṁ sarva*-bhūteṣu. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So without Kṛṣṇa, as soon as... So long the Paramātmā is there... Or the jīva is there... Jīva is also Kṛṣṇa. Because part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, acintya*-bhedābheda. So so long Kṛṣṇa is there, either as ātmā or Paramātmā, then the body's moving. But the so-called scientists, they do not know. Therefore they do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Scientists have started understanding Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They are standing? Dr. Patel: They have started understanding Kṛṣṇa now. Scientists. Prabhupāda: Now, here is the... This is very simple. A child can understand. Here is a dead body, and here is a living body. What is the difference? That Kṛṣṇa is not there, and here is Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Dr. Patel: That is what I say... Prabhupāda: Yes. But these rascal scientists will not understand this. Dr. Patel: Einstein? Prabhupāda: No, yes. They have no... They are, they are... I know one scientist, a rascal scientist. He has written one "Chemical Evolution." Guest (1): Yes. Dr. Patel: Litleus. (?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Article came. I read it. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Chemical evolution." "From chemical life has come." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize. Dr. Patel: That is the Russians. Mr. Sar: Is it? Dr. Patel: No, that man has not got the Nobel Prize. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. I know. In California University he was there. So one of, one of my students, he's also professor in the... Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" That time he said, "That I cannot say." From that day, his meeting was not attended by the students. Yes. He theoretically said that "From chemicals life has come into existence." Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact... Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: ...life keeps the chemicals together. As soon as the life goes away, the chemicals dissolve. Prabhupāda: Dissolve, yes. As a medical practitioner, you know. Where is chemical? Where is chemical? That is a fact. Dr. Patel: Always fact. Mr. Sar: So still we are researching it. Prabhupāda: No... Dr. Patel: There is no research... *Prabhupāda: That is... But when the fact is there, what is the use of your researching? When the fact is already there, what is the use of your so*-called researching? Guest (3): How can we see Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That is being explained. Mr. Sar: *Prabhupāda: Now, that is explained that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. Śaśi means moon, and sūrya means sun. Prabhā. So as soon as in the morning you see the sunshine, there you see Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: "I am the very light of sun and moon." *Prabhupāda: Why do you say, "I don't see Kṛṣṇa"? Kṛṣṇa says, "I am here, that, as prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ," But why don't you see? Guest (3): God is there. But we want to see original form of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That will take three millions of years to understand. (laughter) That is already explained. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. That is not so easy. Dr. Patel: Māṁ vetthi tattvataḥ. Guest (3): What is the method of seeing God? *Prabhupāda: Here, bhakti*-yoga. That is, that is, that is the beginning. Mr. Sar: No, my doubt is that some people must have become siddha in this age also, must have seen Kṛṣṇa. Guest: Oh yes. Why not? Prabhupāda: No, no. Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Even siddhas cannot see. Mr. Sar: Yatatām api. But then there must be somebody of the siddhas... Prabhupāda: Means... Those siddhas were satisfied, "Now I have become Brahman." Mr. Sar: No, not those siddhas, satisfied. Prabhupāda: And still, after that, Mr. Sar: But in this age there must be some people... Prabhupāda: There is always. Not in this age or that age. Mr. Sar: Every, every, every... Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every age. Mr. Sar: Then you must have seen Kṛṣṇa in the human form. Prabhupāda: I, uh... Mr. Sar: That is the divine form. Prabhupāda: So... *Mr. Sar: Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ is the real vigrahaḥ of Kṛṣṇa form [Bs. 5.1]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa, when viewed on the earth, He had that form. Prabhupāda: No, just like... *Dr. Patel: That sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ form [Bs. 5.1]. Prabhupāda: ...a devotee sees the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Come here. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ is the real form of Kṛṣṇa [Bs. 5.1]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: If you can understand it beyond the five senses of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: You cannot see with the karma eyes or hear him with these ears. You have to go beyond. *Prabhupāda: No, you can see. Just like with cataract eyes you cannot see. But if the cataract is removed, you can see. So similarly, to see Kṛṣṇa you have to develop attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ, yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. So you have to be free from the cataract. Then you'll see. Dr. Patel: Cataract is the cataract of māyā. False illusion. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means... Dr. Patel: Am I right? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to purify your eyes by bhakti*-yoga operation. And then you'll see. With stick. With stick. Dr. Patel: You see, you have to actually condition yourself to, I mean, receive... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...confirmed in Brahma*-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. Bhakti-vilocanena. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Those who have become santa and those whose eyes are smeared with love of Godhead, they see every moment Kṛṣṇa. They do not see anything but Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Sar: Balaṁ balavatām asmi. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mr. Sar: Kāma*-rāga-vivarjitaḥ. Prabhupāda: Now this is another seeing, another seeing, that one is very strong. That strong, strength is Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Sar: Where does he get the strength from? Strength is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Kāma*-rāga-vivarjitaḥ. Mr. Sar: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu kāmo 'smi bharatarṣabha. That is a very important... Dharma aviruddhaḥ. Dr. Patel: This... Please explain that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharma aviruddho. Dharma aviruddho means putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. Putrārthe bhāryā. Wife is accepted only for getting son, not for sexual intercourse. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. So when you have sex life simply for generating good son, that is Kṛṣṇa. And if you want to enjoy your senses, that is pāpa. Mr. Sar: That's correct. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: If you take that way, then the... Prabhupāda: If you take contraceptive and enjoy sex life... Mr. Sar: That is not allowed. *Prabhupāda: That is mahā*-pāpa. That is killing. This is going on. This is going on. All over the world. *Dr. Patel: Ye caiva sāttvikā*-bhāvā rājasās tāmasāś ca ye. Mr. Sar: Matta eveti tān viddhi na tv ahaṁ teṣu te mayi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: And all the three modes of nature also is. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They are also... As the material elements coming from Kṛṣṇa, these guṇas also coming from Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa is not there. Mr. Sar: He's above that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: None of the guṇas are there. Prabhupāda: Just like an electrician. He is, by his knowledge, he is, the same box, he's turning to be a refrigerator. And again heater. He knows how, the art. So the heat and the coolness is coming from the engineer. But he's not there. He's not there. Dr. Patel: God is with that. Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayir bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam idaṁ jagat. Prabhupāda: Then again comes to that, here... Kṛṣṇa is within the dog, but he is not dog. Dr. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And if you say "dog*-nārāyaṇa," that is mistake. (laughter) Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayir bhāvair... *Prabhupāda: (laughing) "Dog*-nārāyaṇa!" Mean... If daridra can become Nārāyaṇa, why not dog? What he has done? *Dr. Patel: mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā [Bg. 9.4]. *Prabhupāda: No, so that I am explaining. So if you take in that sense, because He has expanded Himself everywhere, so why do you say, "daridra*-nārāyaṇa"? You say, "dog-nārāyaṇa, dhani-nārāyaṇa, cat-nārāyaṇa-everyone is Nārāyaṇa." Why you particularize this section? Mr. Sar: Because they are human beings. That's why I take in that way. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no human. If you have got so broad vision, because the Nārāyaṇa has entered everywhere, so you cannot say simply "daridra*-nārāyaṇa." You can say, "the sun-nārāyaṇa. Sun-nārāyaṇa." There is also. Mr. Sar: But the human beings they are more, you see, first... Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think... Prabhupāda: No, no, no... That's... It is argument. It is argument. Mr. Sar: Let him explain it. *Prabhupāda: Here see... If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere present, why you particularize daridra*-nārāyaṇa? Mr. Sar: Well, human beings, we are the first of everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Everyone. "Dog*-nārāyaṇa, cat-nārāyaṇa." Guest (3): If you say that you are... [break] That's nonsense. *Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, what are they? Now, they are worshiping daridra*-nārāyaṇa and they are killing goat-nārāyaṇa. Guest (3): That's right. *Dr. Patel: Goat*-nārāyaṇa. Yes. And eating it away. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: That's the answer of it. Guest (4): That is God killing God. Part of God killing... Prabhupāda: No, God does not kill. Dr. Patel: God never kills anything, and nothing is killed. Guest (4): He says that human beings and cats and dogs are God Himself. That means... Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no. That's... Prabhupāda: No, that's... [break] ...(the version) of the cats and dogs, not of Kṛṣṇa. That is the... This is the version of the cats and dogs. Kṛṣṇa says, nahaṁ tesu. Dr. Patel: Nahaṁ teṣu te mayi. "They are in Me. Not I am in them." Mr. Sar: Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair ebhiḥ sarvam..., mohitaṁ nābhijānāti... Prabhupāda: Ah! Mohitaṁ, bewildered by the three modes of nature, they cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Sar: Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the bhaktas who have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they can understand everything. Mr. Sar: That is the most important. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mām eva ye prapadyante. Mr. Sar: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante... [Bg. 7.15]. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Now, here the question... Here the question is that mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. So it is very easy thing. Why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become free from māyā? But their... The answer is there: na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ. Dr. Patel: Four types of people. Prabhupāda: Rascals and mūḍhās and sinful men, they do not do that. *Mr. Sar: And then again, catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ... Prabhupāda: But those who are pious, sukṛtina, they do. *Dr. Patel: Catur*-vidhā bhajante... My name is Caturbhai. (Prabhupāda chuckles) *Mr. Sar: One of them, catur*-vidhā. But they... Their mode of worship is fourfold, ārto jijñāsur arthārthī... [break] Prabhupāda: Ārto, ārto jijñāsi means gṛhasthas. Dr. Patel: Teṣāṁ jñānī... Prabhupāda: And jñānī and jijñāsu, sannyāsīs. Mr. Sar: Jñānī and... I see. Ārto and... Prabhupāda: Ārto and... Because they, the grhasthas, they feel distress of this material world. Dr. Patel: That is, they are ārtas. Prabhupāda: Ārtas. They are in need of money. But a sannyāsī is not in need of money, neither he cares for these worldly miseries. Mr. Sar: He's jijñāsu. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jijñāsu. He's jijñāsu. So they are better. Dr. Patel: Jñānī, jijñāsu and jñānī, both together. Prabhupāda: Yes. The jijñāsu and jñānī is almost the same thing. Anyway, so, so gṛhasthas are inferior because as soon as their distressed condition is over, they, they are no more interested. Dr. Patel: They forget so. Prabhupāda: They are no more interested. But these jñānīs and jijñāsu, because they want to know what is Kṛṣṇa, they continue. That is the difference. Guest (1): Even jñānī and jijñāsu also? *Dr. Patel: Teṣāṁ jñānī nitya*-yukta eka-bhaktir viśiṣyate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jijñāsu is the beginner, and jñānī is realized. Jñānī is realized. Therefore he's better. But that jñānī does not mean that "I have become God." One who is situated in bhakti*-yoga. Eka-bhaktiḥ. *Mr. Sar: Eka*-bhaktiḥ. Dr. Patel: "He is dear to Me, and I am dear to him." Jñānī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But He is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to Him. Prabhupāda: No, especially. Especially. Just like you have got many students. One is very intelligent. You take care of him especially. Therefore... The jñānī is intelligent. Therefore He takes care. Mr. Sar: Udārāḥ sarva evaite jñānī tv ātmaiva me matam [Bg. 7.18]. Dr. Patel: That is very important. Prabhupāda: Everything is important. Dr. Patel: Jñānī tva ātmaiva me matam. Prabhupāda: Yes, "Because he has accepted Me after full knowledge, nobody can defeat him. Therefore he is My ātmā." Especially. Dr. Patel: So jñānīs a... Mr. Sar: Āsthito... Prabhupāda: Jñānī means one who can defend by knowledge Kṛṣṇa's identity. That is jñānī. Mr. Sar: Or he's āsthitaḥ... Dr. Patel: "Perpetually welded with Me." Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: And the so*-called jñānavān, they'll take many, many, many births. *Mr. Sar: So*-called, so-called, yes, so-called. *Prabhupāda: So*-called. Because actually when he becomes wise, he prapadyante, he surrenders. That is the sy... Mr. Sar: If he has become jñānī with bhakti... Prabhupāda: Then you'll find, you'll find that he has surrendered. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam... He has no... "No, Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything." Mr. Sar: Real jñānī is that who... Prabhupāda: That is real jñānī. *Mr. Sar: ...who has surrendered himself. That is correct. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], jñānavān ..., vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. *Prabhupāda: Sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ. Dr. Patel: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam etam... Prabhupāda: Eh? Mr. Sar: Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam idam means Vāsudeva is everything. Because... We already explained: There are two energies, prakṛti of Vāsudeva, one aparā and para. And whatever you see, this is combination of this aparā and para. Therefore Vāsudeva is everything. *Dr. Patel: Sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. *Mr. Sar: Kāmais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ... Dr. Patel: So that way Vāsudeva is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Hogya. Same thing He is... Prabhupāda: Huh. But Vāsudeva is there. It does not mean... Māyāvādī says, "Because Vāsudeva has got everything, He has become everything, He's finished." Mr. Sar: Vāsudeva still above. Dr. Patel: That is... Nobody says that. Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. Yes. That is Māyāvāda, impersonalism. They don't accept the person. That... "Because Vāsudeva has expanded Himself in so many ways, therefore the identity of Vāsudeva is finished." Dr. Patel: It cannot be exactly. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adhaḥ.. [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But because they are fools, they cannot understand. Mr. Sar: Celo. Celo. You are a fool; so you don't understand. (laughter) Dr. Patel: No. Don't call me a fool. I'll hit him. Mr. Sar: We are fighting! We are fighting! No, we are not fighting. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Now, now one thing I must explain. I think Dr. Patel is the eldest of you. Mr. Sar: Yes, he is the oldest. Prabhupāda: All right. So you are all... He's just like my younger brother. Mr. Sar: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: And you are all, mostly, you are just like my sons. Dr. Patel: I am also your son. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughing) No, you are younger brother. Sons are on the same level. So I have got the right to say sometimes "Rascal, fool." Don't be angry. Dr. Patel: And we accept it also. We know that within yourself you take us to be something different. Prabhupāda: That is out of love. [break] He thinks he's government. Because "Unless he's satisfied, if I do any mistake, immediately he'll arrest me." So he thinks "This constable is government." That's all. He does not know behind the constable, there is head constable, there is... [break] He sees directly, "The constable harasses me. So, 'Sir. Namaskara.' " Just like in the village, there are so many [break] done. Somebody is killing the hens. We have got here? Before some deity? So there are so many deities. Dr. Patel: All these Hindus, they always worship those... [break] Prabhupāda: ...and (Hindi), and this, that, so many, hundreds and thousands. Mr. Sar: Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad... [Bg. 7.23]. Prabhupāda: Ah, here is... *Mr. Sar: ...bhavaty alpa*-medhasām. *Prabhupāda: But they... Now it is clear. That antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ. That is intelligence, that "If I have to ask something, and it is to be ended, why shall I be interested with such thing?" So devān deva*-yājo yānti... *Mr. Sar: Mad*-bhakta yānti mām api. Prabhupāda: Mām api. So why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Why to these... [break] The Māyāvādīs, they think that Kṛṣṇa has got His māyā body. His body's māyā. Because the origin, Absolute, is impersonal, so when the Absolute comes in form, He accepts the material elements just like we do. We do. So they are abuddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is abu... Mr. Sar: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. Prabhupāda: Vyaktim āpannaṁ. Dr. Patel: They consider body of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Avyaktam, avyaktam, the Absolute Truth is avyaktam. And when Absolute Truth comes, incarnation, He accepts this mayic body. Dr. Patel: Only body, and the real is inside. *Prabhupāda: And that has been commented by Dr. Rādhākrishnan. When Kṛṣṇa says that man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], he says that "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person, but what is within Him. Within Him." That means he is under the theory that Kṛṣṇa's body is māyā. So you haven't got to surrender to the body of Kṛṣṇa. But this fool does not know that there is no such distinction in Kṛṣṇa. Mr. Sar: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannam manyante mām... Prabhupāda: Ah! No, Kṛṣṇa has no such distinction as body and soul. Prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya. He comes in His own, original body. Sambhavāmi yuge... Prakṛtiṁ svām. Not this prakṛti. Svām, the spiritual body. That they do not take. Mr. Sar: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mamāvyayam anuttamam. Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ [Bg. 9.11]. That Kṛṣṇa is so powerful that He can come in a spiritual body. Otherwise how He remembers millions of years. If His body's changing, it is material, then how He can remember? *Mr. Sar: Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā... [Bg. 7.25]. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Yogamāyā*-samāvṛtaḥ... Therefore He's not manifest except to the devotee. Mr. Sar: Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. Prabhupāda: Again, mūḍha and mūḍha comes. (laughter) Mr. Sar: Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni cār... [Bg. 7.26] Prabhupāda: This is Kṛṣṇa. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni. Dr. Patel: Kālātītaḥ. Prabhupāda: Kāla āti... Yes. Dr. Patel: He's kālātītaḥ. Prabhupāda: Kālātītaḥ because He, He's all spirit. Therefore He knows everything. Dr. Patel: Kāla is an illusion. Prabhupāda: No, kāla is also Kṛṣṇa, another form of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kālo 'smi. In the Eleventh chapter He has said. *Mr. Sar: Icchā*-dveṣa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata [Bg. 7.27]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Mr. Sar: Sarva*-bhūtāni sammohaṁ sarge yānti parantapa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarge. Those who have come to this material world, they are envious of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Iccha*-dveṣa-samutthena. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Iccha*-dveṣa... They... "Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? I shall become Kṛṣṇa." This is iccha-dveṣa. Dr. Patel: Is that so because of the reason of not understanding Kṛṣṇa, they go on... Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa is enjoyer. Just like a big businessman, and his secretary is working under him. So he sometimes thinks, "Why shall I work under him? Why not become another Birla like him?" That is the fall down. He's happy there, becoming secretary of a big man, but he gives up the job and tries himself and becomes a vagabond. That's all. This is the position. Anyone who is trying to become... *Dr. Patel: Iccha*-dveṣa-samutthena dvandva-mohena... *Prabhupāda: Dvandva*-mohena. Dr. Patel: Because they are illusioned by the dvandvas. Prabhupāda: Dvandas. Dr. Patel: If they understand that there is unity and nothing else but Kṛṣṇa, then they are released from the māyā's condition. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they are going... *Prabhupāda: So therefore they'll not... If anyone knows that "Wherever I go, Kṛṣṇa's supremacy is there. Kṛṣṇa's supreme is there." But he is perplexed, dvandva*-mohena, that "If I leave Kṛṣṇa, I become more happy." That is dvandva-mohaḥ. *Dr. Patel: Dvandva*-mohaḥ means all duality of this... Prabhupāda: Yes, duality. He's making duality that "Kṛṣṇa's interest and my interest, different." Mr. Sar: All likes and dislikes. *Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa's interest and my interests, different." That is dvandva*-moha. When he understands that "My interest and Kṛṣṇa's interest is the same," then it is not dvandva-moha. *Dr. Patel: Dvandva*-mohena bhārata. *Mr. Sar: Yeṣāṁ tv anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām... *Prabhupāda: Ah. This dvandva*-mohaḥ exists with the sinful man, but one who is freed from all sinful reactions, resultant actions, he can understand Kṛṣṇa. *Mr. Sar: Te dvandva*-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 7.28]. *Prabhupāda: Māṁ dṛḍha*-vratāḥ. Then he engages himself dṛḍha-vratāḥ: "No, I am simply servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." *Mr. Sar: Jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām āśritya yatanti ye, te brahma... *Prabhupāda: Now, here, here the real problem is jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. They do not know that. Real, real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mūḍha na abhijānanti, mūḍha māṁ nābhijānanti. Dr. Patel: Mūḍha mām abhijānanti. Mr. Sar: Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti [Bg. 7.25]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: Te brahma tad viduḥ kṛtsnam adhyātmām karma cākhilam. *Prabhupāda: Now these things will be explained further in the next chapter. [break] ...nothing to... He's self*-sufficient. He hasn't got to find out māyā to enjoy. Dr. Patel: No, the lower... That is the jīva. Prabhupāda: And the jīva, because he's dependent, he has to... Just like a servant. If he wants to, little more comfort, he may find out a bigger master. But he has to serve. That is the position. You have to serve. If you don't serve Kṛṣṇa, then you serve māyā. That's all. Dr. Patel: That is what I was saying, that... Prabhupāda: This is the position. Guest (5): Does God need service? Prabhupāda: God does not need. You need to serve God. God does not need. *Guest (5): He's not self*-sufficient, you mean. *Prabhupāda: He's self*-sufficient, but it is for your interest. Guest (5): He knows before creating people, they'll sin. Then why does He create them? Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? He does not create. This is all nonsense question. He does not create. He does not create. Guest (5): He's not omniscient? *Prabhupāda: He's omniscient, everything. But you want. Therefore He has given you facility, "All right, you enjoy. And become entangled. That's all." Therefore at last He says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Therefore He says that "This is rascaldom. You are trying this, this, that, that. No! Don't try that. Come on. Surrender unto Me." This is the last instruction. *Dr. Patel: Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61], bhrāmayan... [break] ...but you are illusioned because of the māyā... [break] Prabhupāda: One man is in the prison house. So he supports, "Why government has created the prison house?" There must be somebody. Dr. Patel: You go in. "So let me go in." Prabhupāda: But government does not want that. Only the criminals are sent there. That's all. Similarly, this material creation, there was no necessity. But because there are criminals who want to enjoy, therefore God has given this facility, "All right, you enjoy." Dr. Patel: The whole material world is created by the propensity of the past actions of all... [break] Prabhupāda: No, because God knows that "There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want,..." Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government knows. Suppose government is creating one city, but he's creating at the same time the jail house. Although there is no criminal at that time. But government knows there are some criminals who will fulfill this jail house. Because you are independent. Everyone is independent. Not absolute independent, but slight independent. So therefore you have the option either to serve God or serve māyā. That's all. Dr. Patel: Serve God or serve Mammon. Prabhupāda: That's it. Dr. Patel: You can't serve two masters at the same time. [break] Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact... [break] Prabhupāda: ...minute quantity. [break] Guest (5): Why does God permit all these sins and offenses? Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Patel: That is the eternal... That a madman created all this. [break] *Prabhupāda: Why do you not understand? God does not create. But you create. Just like you infect some disease. So you create your disease. Nobody's creating your disease. The simple thing, why don't you understand? If you... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Guṇa-saṅga. If you associate with the different qualities of this material nature, then you inf..., you become infected. You, if you associate with the tamo-guṇa, then you become lower class man, animals. That is your fault. It is not Kṛṣṇa's fault. Dr. Patel: All your actions and their effects, which are collecting on you... [break] *Guest (5): ...knows the procreating from the first word or some people would exercise their so*-called free will and choosing sin, and still He creates them. If He were not to... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. There is no question of choosing. As soon as you associate some infections disease, it is not the question of disease. You must be diseased. This is the law of nature. If you infect the smallpox disease, then you must be suffering from smallpox. That is law of nature. Not that your father has created small pox disease for you. Try to understand like this. You infect yourself. [break] ...giving him chance. Dr. Patel: But you, as a jīva, is so much engrossed in the māyā, in the tree, in the fruits of it, that you don't heed... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: ...what (Hindi?) says. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is the... That is the disease. Now, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ... [Bg. 18.66]. Who is caring for Him? Dr. Patel: So you stop this looking down and look up. Prabhupāda: Who is caring for Him? That is independence. Now you suffer. Dr. Patel: And once you look up and when you realize that this is all... Prabhupāda: Then you become... Dr. Patel: ...His māyā, all is due to Him, then you get released from the bondage of the māyā, and you get... Prabhupāda: māyā, māyā, māyā... It is not for Kṛṣṇa; for me. Dr. Patel: māyā is for jīva. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like darkness. Darkness means absence of sun. But sun is never absence of sun. Mr. Sar: Yes, sun is never absent. Prabhupāda: Sun is always in the sunlight. It is for us to be in the darkness. Mr. Sar: Kṛṣṇa is the Lord of māyā. He's the Lord of māyā. Prabhupāda: Māyām etāṁ taranti te. By simply surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa, one becomes freed from māyā. So how Kṛṣṇa can be under the influence of māyā? Mr. Sar: No, He cannot. He's the Lord of māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. But these Māyāvādīs says that "Kṛṣṇa is also, when He comes, He comes under the influence of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda. [break] ...these bhūta, material, material adhibhūtas. And adhiyajña. Adhiyajña is Paramātmā. And adhibhuta, material. And adhidaiva... Dr. Patel: Is the other demigods. Prabhupāda: Devas, yes. Dr. Patel: All the devas of the ten indriyas. Mr. Sar: He's asking already, kiṁ tad brahma kim... Prabhupāda: That is... These are the questions. So this will be answered. Dr. Patel: In the next chapter it will be answered. This is the beginning of... This is the question put to raise the new chapter. *Mr. Sar: But there in the next chapter, anta*-kāle ca mām eva smaran muktvā... [Bg. 8.5]. [break] Yaḥ prayāti sa mad-bhāvaṁ... Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dr. Patel: That is the fact. But anta*-kāle you remember Him...? [break] *Prabhupāda: ...practice remembering Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, how you'll be able. Anta*-kāle. There, there will be so many disarrangement of the body. You see? But if you practice, if you practice, then it is possible. Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: It is fact only. I may tell you that you must have... [break] Prabhupāda: ...to always remember Kṛṣṇa, it is not that all of a sudden you remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Mr. Sar: That's why He says, tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu mām anusmara yudhya ca... [Bg. 8.7]. Dr. Patel: That is... I told you... *Mr. Sar: Mayyarpita*-mano-buddhir... Dr. Patel: Just like I have repeatedly told you... Prabhupāda: This is simplest method. In whatever condition of life you may remain, you simply remember Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That's all. *Mr. Sar: Ananya*-cetāḥ satataṁ yo māṁ smarati nityaśaḥ... [break] Prabhupāda: ...demigods. That is not possible. Mr. Sar: Mām upetya punar janma... [Bg. 8.15]. [break] Prabhupāda: ...simply distributing what Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. I am a fool number one also, like others. Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no, no. Prabhupāda: But my only ambition is that I don't speak anything else beyond Kṛṣṇa's speaking. That's all. Mr. Sar: Correct sir. Just you are uncompromisingly speaking. That uncompromising you are speaking. [break] Prabhupāda: ...places that "Swamiji, how you have done this wonderful thing?" And I do not know what is wonderful thing. But I know this that I do not adulterate. That's all. [break] That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa' upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's all. Āmāra ajñaya... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... Dr. Patel, hear. Kṛṣṇa says, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become a guru." Just see. "You become a guru by My order." Then one may say that "What qualification I have got that I can become guru?" That only qualification: yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa' upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You don't require to manufacture any upadeśa. Whatever is there already spoken by Kṛṣṇa, you distribute it. You become guru. This is guru. Not that you are fool. Yes, I am fool. But I am not so fool like you that I adulterate. Dr. Patel: No, I... Prabhupāda: That's all. Dr. Patel: I am a fool number one. (laughter) Two or three. Like that. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: ...was a fool. But if we follow Kṛṣṇa, then even though I am fool, I am right. Just like this child, he's a fool. But if the father says, "My dear child, this is called stick." And when she says, "This is stick," this is right. He may be fool, but the version which is given, that is right. So I may be fool, you may be fool. That's all right. If you carry Kṛṣṇa's message, then you are right. [break] We are fool. How I have come to this material...? Yes. Mr. Sar: You are not part of the... Unless you are in the realm of māyā, you cannot be born as a human being. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. [break] ...samutthena sarge yānti... Mr. Sar: Born in the māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: māyā means that thing... [break] Prabhupāda: ...that is. That is right. One who says like that, "It is right," he's not in māyā. māyām etāṁ taranti te. *Dr. Patel: Because He is the māyā*-maker. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is, He says that mām eva ye prapadyante. If you simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has spoken, then they are not in māyā. You are not in māyā. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...what Kṛṣṇa says, then you are not in māyā. Dr. Patel: That's right. Because He is actually... [break] Prabhupāda: ...then he surpasses māyā. Dr. Patel: Unless and until you know the madari who makes the web... Prabhupāda: But you can know when you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. [break] So if you are so unintelligent, then it is impossible. But if you have got little intelligence, then you can see Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa says... We were explaining that, that "The taste of the water I am." So don't you taste water? So the taste is Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? Guest (5): Each life being a plan of God, God is responsible... Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all try to understand this. Then talk big, big words. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa by drinking water. Is it very difficult? Guest (5): No. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest (5): But it will take millions of years before you understand Him like that... *Prabhupāda: No, because you won't understand. If you don't understand, then it takes millions of years. Otherwise in a second. Where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. "I am the taste of the water." Prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. So you see the sunshine. This is Kṛṣṇa. The moonshine is Kṛṣṇa. First of all try to see Kṛṣṇa in... There are two kinds of snakes. One snake is poisonless, and another snake is poisonous. So before catching the poisonous snake, you practice to catch the non-poisonous snake. Then gradually, you'll be able. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, and this is the process to see Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste of the water," that is a fact. So you see this Kṛṣṇa. Then you will, one day you will realize the Supreme Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between this Kṛṣṇa and that Kṛṣṇa. This is the purport. [break] ...learn something, you should accept the process. If you don't accept the process, how you can learn? [break] Guest (5): Why did He create suffering when He could have created a permanent paradise on earth? Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Guest (5): Why did God create suffering... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That I have already explained. When you infect some disease, you suffer. That is your creation. Guest (5): Why create the wrongdoers? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he does not hear Kṛṣṇa. He must be committing mistake. [break] Mr. Sar: Ajñānenāvṛtaṁ jñānaṁ tena muhyanti jantavaḥ. Dr. Patel: Muhyanti jantavaḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mr. Sar: You see? Already He has said. Nādatte kasyacit pāpaṁ... Dr. Patel: Come here. Mr. Sar: ...na caiva sukṛtaṁ vibhuḥ, ajñānenāvṛtaṁ jñānaṁ tena muhyanti jantavaḥ. So God has neither created sin, nor the merit or puṇya. You see? It is only ajñānenāvṛtaṁ jñāna, because your knowledge is covered with ignorance, tena muhyanti jantavaḥ, that we, we, we play like jantu, insects. [break] Dr. Patel: Man is also jantu. Mr. Sar: No, no, we are... [break] Prabhupāda: ...university does not teach anyone to steal, but he, he becomes a thief. Does it mean the university has taught him to become a thief? So he steals and goes to the jail. This is the position. Svabhāvas tu pravartate. Mr. Sar: It's only the nature. [break] Prabhupāda: ...association with the different qualities. Mr. Sar: That he has taught within, so many adhyāyas, not only one. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...presents you instruction: sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That's all. If you simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then everything finished. Everything is finished. Mr. Sar: He is (indistinct) nānyaṁ guṇebhyaḥ kartāram... Dr. Patel: Ah, that... [break] ...ācaret. Then he goes beyond the guṇas. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Guṇātītaḥ. Guṇātītaḥ pratyahe... *Prabhupāda: That guṇātītaḥ, that guṇātītaḥ is possible, that māṁ ca avyabhicāriṇi*-bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa... [Bg. 14.26]? Dr. Patel: Guṇān etān samatītyaitān... Prabhupāda: Etān samatītyaitān. *Dr. Patel: Brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-bhūyāya... Yes. [break] ...only process to take to bhakti-yoga. [break] ...Hare Kṛṣṇa means always remain guṇātīta. Mr. Sar: Yes, correct. Because you are always... [break] Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa. Definitely. [break] ...not independently. [break] Guest (5): ...why the Jesus says you offer the other cheek? Which is better? Is the choice of us to be violent or nonviolent? Prabhupāda: Yes. The persons to whom Jesus Christ taught, they were already fighting. Therefore his first injunction is "Thou shalt not kill." They were already killers. You see? And Arjuna is a gentleman. He was thinking before killing. Therefore he has to be induced, "You kill like this." But they were already killers. Otherwise why Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill"? That means that society was accustomed to kill. [break] Yes, that (indistinct) circumstance. Mr. Sar: Different persons on different occasions. Only the main occasions on which they serve. [break] Prabhupāda: ...lence is violence. But Kṛṣṇa has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So those who are duṣkṛtā, there is necessity of violence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...surgical operation. Yes. When the... Guest (6): Yeah, I was disturbed in the early morning. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...to have surgical operation, if the doctor says, "No, no, no, I have taken to non*-violence. I cannot touch with knife," that is foolishness. [break] ...you, one must know. That, you take instruction from Kṛṣṇa; then you'll know when one thing should be used and one thing not be used. Dr. Patel: And that is necessity... [break] Prabhupāda: ...create violence out of your own wish, that is not God's wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God's wish. That is not God's wish. Guest (5): But God knows before creating jīvas(?) and everything that they will start wars and take... Prabhupāda: Yes, even God knows, that is your creation. Guest (5): But why should He create them in the first instance? Prabhupāda: That is... Guest (5): Knowing beforehand that they will... Prabhupāda: That you will not understand unless you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You are asking this question for the last so many years, and... Guest (5): Ah, I have surrendered unto you. Now you explain this mystery. Prabhupāda: I am repeatedly saying that God does not create anything. Just like the same example. Guest (5): He has created this universe. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. You created. Why do you blame? Guest (5): How I was created, I created this universe? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So you were created to serve God, but you do not serve God. You want sense gratification. That is your fault. *Guest (5): He's self*-sufficient. He doesn't need service. Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are repeating that question like a fool? (laughter) I have answered this. If you disturb in that way, don't question. I have already, that you created everything. Guest (5): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like... Guest (5): You say He has not created. Now you say He has created... Prabhupāda: No, He... Guest (5): Contradicting yourself. Prabhupāda: Then because... Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) Guest (5): Sorry about that. Prabhupāda: Let me explain it. Let me explain it. Suppose you are ordered by the judge that you should be hanged. So it is certainly his creation, your hanging. But is the judge enemy of you that he has ordered you to be hanged? You have created such thing that you should be hanged. This is the answer. [break] ...situation that you must be hanged. But the order must come from the judge. So externally the judge is hanging you. But actually he's not hanging you. You are hanging yourself. This is the way. [break] ...hanged, there is no choice. Is it not? But still, you created the position of being hanged. That is the position. When the judge has ordered that "He should be hanged," there is no more choice. But who has created this situation? Dr. Patel: No, no, no. We are always like that. We are in the... [break] Prabhupāda: Supraconsciousness means... If you try to explain. Because there is antyantikaṁ sukham. That is spiritual. Dr. Patel: Supraconscious state is the spiritual state, samādhi state. *Prabhupāda: Spiritual. Yes. [break] ...is, that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata-āntar-ātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. That is the supreme samādhi, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...little by little. Mr. Sar: Little by little. Dr. Patel: And we, because we are dull students... (Gujarati) [break] *Prabhupāda: Why? Why do they go to the college and university? They could do it independently. [break] Therefore tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Inquisitive, jijñāsu, they should go to the proper person who knows it. Dr. Patel: He is, that... [break] Prabhupāda: ...eighth time. No? Thirteenth time? Dr. Patel: Thirteenth time. Now you must time, describe the fourteenth time because thirteen is a bad number. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got the translation. All my secretaries, they have got. [break] (kīrtana, Acyutānanda singing) (end) Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay Chandobhai: ...proktam adhidaivaṁ kim ucyate. Prabhupāda: Yes. So these are the questions. So the answer will be there. Chandobhai: Yes, answers. Akṣaraṁ brahma paramaṁ svabhāvo 'dhyātmam ucyate. Dr. Patel: Param Brahman is akṣara. Prabhupāda: Akṣara? First of all try to understand. Akṣara... Akṣara means, "that does not fall down." That is akṣara. Akṣara and kṣara. The spiritual world is akṣara, and this material world is kṣara. So the living entities or God in the spiritual world, they are all akṣara. And in the material world we are all kṣara. Therefore akṣaram paramaṁ brahma. The Supreme... Chandobhai: Svabhāvo 'dhyātmam. Prabhupāda: Svabhāvam. Dr. Patel: Sva means "own." Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Bhāva means...? Bhāva (Gujarati)? Essence, essence. *Prabhupāda: Sva*-bhāvaḥ means nature. *Dr. Patel: Nature. Sva*-bhāvaḥ... Chandobhai: Adhyātmam. Dr. Patel: Adhi-ātma. That is the... Chandobhai: That is real bhāva. Prabhupāda: Adhyātma. Adhyātma means bodily and mentally. Chandobhai: Ah, bodily and mentally, yes. Dr. Patel: Adhyātma? Bodily and mentally? Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: Mentally. Spiritually... Inner existence. Prabhupāda: No. Adhyātmam. Adhyātma. Ātma means body, mind and the soul, but here adhyātma means the body and the mind. That is material nature. The body and mind is made of material nature. [break] ...creation. Chandobhai: Creation, yes. Prabhupāda: So by working with the body, we create another creation. *Dr. Patel: Bhūta*-bhāvodbhava... Prabhupāda: Just like now I am a human being. Next life I may be a demigod, I may be a dog. That I create. That is sarga. Dr. Patel: That is karma. Chandobhai: That is his karma. That is his karma. Dr. Patel: What is karma? Prabhupāda: Karma, anyone can understand. As you... Fruitive activities. You do something and enjoy the good or bad result. That is karma. You do something, either good or bad. So the result you'll have to suffer or enjoy. Dr. Patel: But here is a very big question. I'm very sorry to... Who does the karma? Unless and until we have got ahaṅkāra in that, then... Prabhupāda: The ahaṅkāra is there, false ahaṅkāra. You are thinking that "I am kṣatriya." That is false ahaṅkāra. Dr. Patel: That is what I said. So doer is that, ahaṅkāra is the doer. Prabhupāda: That ahaṅkāra... Dr. Patel: Then it is karma. Not otherwise. *Prabhupāda: As soon as you come to the material world, the ahaṅkāra is there, that "I... I belong to India." "I belong to America." "I belong to brāhmaṇa community, kṣatriya..." The ahaṅkāra is there. Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā. So long this ahaṅkāra is there, "I am this, I am that," all bodily concept... *Chandobhai: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But this karma. Here is the question of karma. Prabhupāda: The karma... Karma means he is doing, but every, everyone is doing in his own way. Nobody, nobody cares to understand the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is doing in his own way. That is karma. Dr. Patel: Kiṁ karma kim akarmeti kavayo... Prabhupāda: Ah, that will be explained. Karma, akarma, yes. [break] ...the same, material. Kṣara. Kṣara bhāvaḥ. That is perishable. Chandobhai: Perishable. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: Puruṣaś cādhidaivatam. Prabhupāda: Puruṣa. Puruṣa means the soul. Chandobhai: Soul. Jīva. Prabhupāda: Yes, the jīva. Puruṣa adhidaivatam. Then? Chandobhai: Adhiyajño 'ham evātra. Prabhupāda: Adhiyajñaḥ means Paramātmā. Dr. Patel: Adhidaiva means jīva. Prabhupāda: No. Chandobhai: No, no. Adhidaiva, puruṣa. Prabhupāda: Adhidaiva, jīva. Adhiyajña, Paramātmā. Dr. Patel: That is what I said. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: Adhiyajña is... [break] Prabhupāda: Karma means which produces result. And akarma means which does not produce result. So that they do not know. Chandobhai: And the vikarma. *Prabhupāda: Just like these activities, devotional service, it does not produce any result. And the ordinary man... Suppose they are also selling books. An ordinary man also selling books. It appears to be the same. But they are not creating any result. But ordinary bookseller, he's creating his result, pāpa*-puṇya. That is karma and akarma. And vikarma. Vikarma means against the... Chandobhai: Vikṛta karma. Prabhupāda: Yes, vikṛta. Chandobhai: Vikṛta, against śāstra. Dr. Patel: Although the actions which are prohibitory... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: ...and if we do it, it is vikarma. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Chandobhai: Adhiyajño 'ham evātra dehe deha*-bhṛtāṁ vara. Īśvara, īśvara. Prabhupāda: Īśvara. *Dr. Patel: That means īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ... [Bg. 18.61]. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...important thing, mām, Kṛṣṇa. They practice it, always remembering Kṛṣṇa. Then at the end of life, ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛti. That is perfection of life. But how one will remember, ante, then? There is a verse of... Just wait. Chandobhai: Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran... [Bg. 8.6]. *Prabhupāda: No. Just wait. There is a verse by Kulaśekhara. Kulaśekhara. Adyaiva viśatu me mānasa*-rāja-haṁsaḥ. He says. He says, "My Lord..." The idea is that "Now I am in quite fit order. So let me remember You and die. Because at the end of... At the end of... Kapha-pitta-vāyu, there will be disorder. Smaraṇaṁ kutas te [MM 33]. At that time, it is..." Dr. Patel: How can there be the smaran? Prabhupāda: Yes. "Therefore, my Lord, I pray that adyaiva, immediately, because now I am fit." Dr. Patel: Right now. Prabhupāda: Right now. "Now I am fit. So let me remember You and die." So one must be fit. You see, even in daily, in dream, while sleeping, we forget so many things. Everything we forget. Chandobhai: Yes. Prabhupāda: So at the time of death, when everything is disordered, nothing is in order, unless one is very strongly practiced, how he can remember? Dr. Patel: My father spoke, "Oṁ," and he stopped breathing and... Prabhupāda: That's nice. Oṁ, oṁ ity eka... That is... Dr. Patel: Then he stopped breathing. Prabhupāda: That means he practiced. Therefore, either you practice Oṁ or Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is all right. Dr. Patel: Whatever we do of our whole, all our whole, all day of life, it comes at the end. That is why you must continue to do for the life. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-four hours. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Always Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... In this way practicing, if somebody is fortunate enough, he can remember. *Dr. Patel: Eṣā brāhmī sthitiḥ pārtha na... Sthitvā samanta*-kāle 'pi brahma-nirvāṇam ṛcchati. Prabhupāda: So... Dr. Patel: Therefore at the last moment you... But you can't get that last moment in this position because you have, whole life, you have... Prabhupāda: Yes, you have spoiled your life simply in material activities. How you can remember? Dr. Patel: But even if you are doing material activities by your body, and by your mental activities you are bhaja kṛṣṇa... *Prabhupāda: But you are under the body... Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Body and mind is working... Unless you practice to be above body and mind... That is bhakti*-yoga. Māṁ cāvyabhicāriṇi-bhakti-yoga..., sa guṇān samatītya. You cannot expect that you go on doing all these material activities and at the time of death you'll remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: That can't be done. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Chandobhai: Should be a real concentrated difference Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: When you do the work, you should be a real concentration. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Chandobhai: Therefore there is no... Because your attachment is more to the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: ...reserves of that... *Prabhupāda: Vīta*-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā... [Bg. 4.10]. *Chandobhai: Mad*-bhaktaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Man*-mayā mad-aśritāḥ. Unless he takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa, these things are not possible. Simply by talking it is not possible. There must be practice. Chandobhai: Acaropanam.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Chandobhai: Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaram bhāvaṁ tyajanty ante... [break] Prabhupāda: There is a risk. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi. If you are thinking of dog, then you become a dog. Dr. Patel: Just as Bhārata did it. Prabhupāda: Yes. yes, that is example. Even Bhārata Mahārāja, such a great personality, simply due to little affection to a cub of deer, he became a deer. So these people are attached to so many things. So how much risk is there at the time of death they do not understand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. Chandobhai: Tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu mām eva... [Bg. 8.7]. Prabhupāda: Mām ekam: Then you... Dr. Patel: Therefore every time, every moment... Prabhupāda: That is... This is stressed. If you... Dr. Patel: Mām smarata yudhya ca. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Yudhya means "do your activity." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But always think. Just like these people are, these, they are doing that. They are doing their duty. Somebody's going to there, somebody's going there, somebody's there... But their chanting is there. That is not avoided. That is not avoided. Sadā tad bhāva*-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. Then Kṛṣṇa favors, "Yes, he has done his best." Chandobhai: Tasmāt sarveṣu kāleṣu... [Bg. 8.7]. Prabhupāda: Ah! Dr. Patel: Yudhya ca. Yudhya ca. *Chandobhai: Mayy arpita*-mano buddhir mām evaiśyasy asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 8.7]. Prabhupāda: Ah! Asaṁśayaḥ. Because his mind is in Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter he's fighting. Fighting is superfluous. Real thing is mind is in Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: That is bhramara*-nyāya. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Dr. Patel: Bhramara*-nyāya. Because the small ant... [break] *Chandobhai: ...nānya*-gāminā. *Dr. Patel: Abhyāsa*-yoga, by... We explained that... *Prabhupāda: One... Abhyāsa*-yoga... You practice this. Therefore we say, "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." This is abhyāsa-yoga. When one becomes attached to chanting, he doesn't require to be under discipline. But so long he's not practiced, he must be under... Just like a boy. He's instructed by the teacher, "You must give me at least four pages handwriting." So four pages handwriting means writing, writing, he'll be practiced. So therefore these are the practice. You must... *Chandobhai: Nānya*-gāminā. *Prabhupāda: Nānya*-gāminā. Because cetāḥ, mind is very flickering. So unless you fix up your mind under some regulative principles, then it is not possible. (indistinct) Everyone becomes paramahaṁsa: "Oh, I am now advanced. I do not require all these regulative principles." Dr. Patel: What is paramahaṁsa? Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa means he's above. Paramo nirmatsarānām [SB 1.1.2]. That is paramahaṁsa. Chandobhai: Paramaṁ puruṣaṁ divyaṁ yāti pārthānucintayan. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramaṁ puruṣaṁ divyaṁ yāti. Dr. Patel: Pārthānucintayan. By thinking about... [break] *Prabhupāda: Smartavyaḥ satato viṣṇuḥ. Therefore one has to think of Viṣṇu always, twenty*-four hours, in so many ways. Chandobhai: Kaviṁ purāṇam anuśāsitāram. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Chandobhai: Aṇor aṇīyān anusmared yaḥ, sarvasya dhātāram acintya*-rūpam... Prabhupāda: This is the description of the param. *Chandobhai: Āditya*-varṇaṁ tamasaḥ parastāt. Prayāṇa-kāle manasācalena... *Prabhupāda: [break] ...varṇa. That is... Āditya*-varṇa means self-effulgent. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. That is āditya-varṇa. Āditya is never in darkness. *Chandobhai: Prayāṇa*-kāle manasācalena... *Dr. Patel: Prayāṇa*-kāle manasācalena. Acalena. *Prabhupāda: Again... Acalena. Acalena means he has been practiced to fix his mind to Kṛṣṇa. Then, if he's successful, the prayāṇa*-kāle, he must remember. *Chandobhai: Yes, yes. Here. Bhaktyā yukto yoga*-balena caiva. *Prabhupāda: Yoga. Bhaktya. That is the bhakti*-yoga. Not otherwise. Chandobhai: Bhruvor madhye prāṇam āveśya samyak. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...they meditate all the life, the so*-called yogis. Something impersonal... Some light, like this, like that. Light may be also, if that Brahmān light. But here it is specifically mentioned... Dr. Patel: Especially spontaneously you feel some light... *Prabhupāda: That's all right, Brahma*-light. But the Brahma-light, according to Bhāgavata philosophy, even one enters in the Brahman effulgence, still he falls down. Still he falls down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādhṛta-yusmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Unless one is fixed up in the personal form of the Lord, there is chance of falling down. They fall down actually. We have seen so many sannyāsīs. Just like at the present moment, Korpatali(?). He's now busy in politics. Dr. Patel: One man married in America, some sannyāsī. Chandobhai: Citrabhānu, Citrabhānu. Dr. Patel: Citrabhānu, or... [break] Prabhupāda: ...one is God. Bhāgavata: Citrabhānu. Chandobhai: Citrabhānu, yes. Bhāgavata: Brahmānanda Swami met him in Mombassa, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was speaking all this nonsense. Then he went to America... [break] Chandobhai: ...icchanto brahmacaryaṁ caranti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: Tat te padaṁ saṅgraheṇa pravakṣye. Now He will tell us in saṅgraha... Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: ...that padam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is Goloka dhāma. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Yad akṣaraṁ veda*-vido vadanti. That means impersonal. Veda-vido. One who knows Vedas. *Chandobhai: Viśanti yad yatayo vīta*-rāgāḥ. Prabhupāda: Then? Chandobhai: You see, now He tells all the practice of the yoga. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that's... Artificially you cannot saṁyama. If your mind is not fixed*-up, artificially you cannot make. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad gata... [Bg. 6.47]. One who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect yogi. Chandobhai: But he has to be yogi at that time, isn't it? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva*-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. Just like these boys, they do not go to see cinema, they do not go to restaurant. This is sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. You see? They do not go to anywhere except in the temple. They do not talk anything nonsense, except Kṛṣṇa. This is sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. Dr. Patel: They should not talk anything else except Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vacaṁsi vaikuṇṭha*-guṇānuvarṇane. So this is sam... Unless you give engagement to the senses, proper, how you can control it? Your eyes want to see beautiful of man or woman. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But when you are captivated by seeing the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, then that eyes being engaged otherwise is stopped. That has been explained by Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī. Durdantendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī-protkhāta-daṁstrāyate. Protkhāta-damstrāyate. Protkhāta means extracted, the poison teeth. The poison teeth of the tea, uh, teeth of the snake is dangerous. Now, here is a snake. Everyone is afraid, "Oh, snake! Snake! Snake!" But if everyone knows that his poison teeth have been taken away, then there is no more danger. Similarly, these indriyas have been compared with the kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. But... Dr. Patel: What do you call? *Prabhupāda: Kāla, kāla*-sarpa means the dead(ly) poisonous snake, kāla-sarpa-paṭalī. Everyone knows. As soon as you use some indriya, there is some dangerous result. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Take for... [break] Dr. Patel: Oṁ is God. *Prabhupāda: Oṁ, yes. Kṛṣṇa says, praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu. Praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. Chandobhai: That is oṁ in that way. Prabhupāda: Because oṁ means Kṛṣṇa. That is mām. Dr. Patel: I told you. Prabhupāda: When one chanting oṁ, if he remembers just the oṁ is Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. Mām. Oṁ ity ekākṣaraṁ... Chandobhai: Oṁ ity ekākṣaraṁ brahma. Dr. Patel: It is ekākṣara Brahman. Chandobhai: Vyāharan mām. Prabhupāda: Vyāharan mām. If he knows... Dr. Patel: Vyāharan mām anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. Prabhupāda: Anusmara. If he knows that oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa, then he's successful. If he thinks that oṁkāra is something else than Kṛṣṇa, then he's not successful. Chandobhai: Prabhupāda: So there is no need of doing this or that. Simply always remember Kṛṣṇa. That is the conclusion. Chandobhai: Prabhupāda: That is saṁsiddhi. They are mahātmās, those who are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. They are mahātmās. Not by the red dress. No, that is not mahātmā. Even in white dress you can become. If you always chant and remember Kṛṣṇa, you become mahātmā. *Chandobhai: Now there is a higher philosophy: ā*-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16], mām upetya punar janma... [Bg. 8.15]. No? Dr. Patel: Mām eti janardana. Prabhupāda: No. Chandobhai: Mām evaiti kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. *Prabhupāda: Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ... Within this material world, these persons who are doing pious activities, they are promoted to the higher planetary systems. But even if you go to the Brahmaloka*-that is the highest-where you can get millions of years, your life duration, but still, kṣīṇe puṇye martya-lokaṁ viṣanti [Bg. 9.21], you have to come back. *Chandobhai: Sahasra*-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17], rātriṁ... Prabhupāda: Now He explaining what is Brahmaloka. That one day of Brahmā, you cannot calculate. And still, you have to die. Dr. Patel: Twelve hundred yugas is called one Brahmā. Chandobhai: So our hundred years is nothing for... Prabhupāda: It is nothing. Chandobhai: It is a moment only. Dr. Patel: Twelve hundred yugas. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not twelve hundred yugas. One thousand yugas. One thousand. Sahasra*-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. *Dr. Patel: Sahasra*-yuga means four yugas, (Hindi) like that... Prabhupāda: That... Four yugas multiplied by one thousand. Dr. Patel: By one thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Four thousand. *Prabhupāda: So four yuga means forty*-three lakhs of years. Now, add three zeroes. Forty-three lakhs of years, add three zeroes. Then how many? Dr. Patel: About four, about... Car... *Prabhupāda: Eh? Forty*-three lakhs, as... Dr. Patel: Car ardha... *Prabhupāda: Forty*-three, eight zeroes. Dr. Patel: Car... (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: This is Brahmā's twelve days, uh, twelve hours. Dr. Patel: Rātri, (Gujarati) Chandobhai: Why not... There's a little question to ask: What are the Pitṛloka, Martyaloka and this...? Prabhupāda: They are planets. Chandobhai: And the Brahmaloka and all the...? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are different... Just like Candraloka, Sūryaloka, Vāyuloka. Chandobhai: What is that Pitṛloka actually? Prabhupāda: Pitṛloka means the... There is a, called a Pitṛloka. Chandobhai: But then in the Pitrloka is it may be that, there may be remembrances of the charity, activities, and all these things or... Prabhupāda: No, these are all material. Dr. Patel: Pitṛloka (Gujarati) They are all your past pitṛs. Chandobhai: No, let us hear from him. *Prabhupāda: Pitṝn yānti... Devān yānti... What is that? Deva... Pitṝn yānti pitṛ*-vrataḥ. So those who are just like fond of performing śraddhās, karma-kāṇḍa, they go to the Pitṛloka. Dr. Patel: These are all, I mean, ordained to perform śraddhā, all Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, Vaiṣṇavas do not do so. Dr. Patel: We are... We, all are, all of us, are we not doing... Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: Śraddhā ceremony... Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava, Vaiṣṇava has no duty except serving Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Dr. Patel: That's right. But a Vaiṣṇava family... Prabhupāda: No. Chandobhai: Gṛhasthas, gṛhasthas. Dr. Patel: Gṛhasthas. Prabhupāda: He, whatever he may be. That is stated, that is stated that... Dr. Patel: Only Jains can do. *Prabhupāda: That is stated that pitṛṇām. No, what is that verse? Devarṣi*-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇām [SB 11.5.41]. We are... Just like we are indebted to our forefathers, family, similarly we are indebted to devas, the demigods. Just like the sun is supplying light. So we are indebted. Deva, ṛṣi, to the great, big, big, saintly ṛṣis. They have given us the śāstras. Devarṣi, devarṣi bhūtā... Bhūtā, ordinary living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. And another, horse, is giving me service. So devarṣi-bhūtā apta, relatives. We take so much help from relatives. Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam, ordinary human beings. Pitṛṇām. And the pitṛs. So we are debted to so many. If you want to clear up the debts, it will take millions of births. (laughter) So devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇāṁ nayaṁ kiṅkara na ṛni ca rājan [SB 11.5.41]. This man is neither servant nor indebted. Who? Sarvātmanā yaḥ śaraṇaṁ mukundam. One who has taken... That Kṛṣṇa says, that "You just surrender unto Me. I will protect you." So if he does not do anything else... One may think that he is being entangled in sinful activities because he does not do other duties. But Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. So one who has taken shelter, full shelter unto Kṛṣṇa, he doesn't require to do any so-called social, political and other duties. He doesn't require. *Dr. Patel: And here He means... He's about those pralaya. Bhūta*-grāmaḥ sa evāyaṁ bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Rātry-āgame avaśaḥ pārtha prabhavaty ahar-āgame. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. When we... Dr. Patel: Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ.. [Bg. 8.20]., Prabhupāda: That is the spiritual world. That is the spiritual... Dr. Patel: Yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati. That is pūrṇa brahma. Prabhupāda: That is spiritual world. That is spiritual world, beyond this material world. So they have no information what is that spiritual world. Therefore it is said that... Here it is going on, pralaya, anya pralaya. During Brahmā's night, there is dissolution. Again creation. And when Brahmā dies, there is another dissolution. That is going on. But paras tasmāt, above this creation and dissolution, there is another nature. That is sanātana. That is eternal. Dr. Patel: Yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu naśyatsu na vinaśyati. Prabhupāda: Ah, so why the... Dr. Patel: Avyakto 'kṣara ity uktas tam āhuḥ paramāṁ gatim [Bg. 8.21]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Yaṁ prāpya na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ mama. Now, again, He's come to mama. "That dhāma is mama, Mine." Dr. Patel: Puruṣaḥ sa paraḥ pārtha... Prabhupāda: And that mama... Dr. Patel: ...bhaktyā labhyas tv ananyayā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktyā labhya ananyayā. Not ordinarily. Dr. Patel: Puruṣa... Prabhupāda: Ananya bhaktyā. Dr. Patel: Sir, I am repeating. Puruṣaḥ sa paraḥ pārtha bhaktyā labhyas tv anyayā. *Prabhupāda: That, the predominating Deity in that sanātana world, spiritual world, is puruṣa, a person. Purusa, a person. And He is achieved*-bhaktya ananya. Not by mix. Mixing this, mixing that. "This is also good. This is also good." No. He cannot. Bhaktya ananyayā. *Dr. Patel: Yasyāntaḥ*-sthāni bhūtāni Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Prabhupāda: Tatam. That Puruṣa is spread all over. Chandobhai: But He's not Kṛṣṇa. He is Kṛṣṇa also. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa. *Chandobhai: Yasyāntaḥ*-sthani bhūtāni. *Prabhupāda: All Vaikuṇṭha*-pati, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Dr. Patel: Just as (indistinct) saw a whole world within the mouth of Bala Mukunda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Within the body of Bala Mukunda. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Yasyāntaḥ*-sthani bhūtāni yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Prabhupāda: This is material calculation. *Dr. Patel: Agnir jyotir ahaḥ śuklaḥ ṣaṇ*-māsā uttarāyaṇam... Prabhupāda: Then he assures, assures Arjuna that "You are assured. Your coming to Me is assured." Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: This is material calculation. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the position. Sarveṣu kāleṣu. Not that sometimes here and sometimes there. That will take long time, but unless one comes to sarveṣu kāleṣu, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa... *Dr. Patel: Vedeṣu yajñeṣu tapaḥsu caiva dāneṣu yat*-puṇya-phalaṁ pradiṣṭam... *Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. That is required. Dr. Patel: Yajnesu. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if one understands that all these pious activities, charity, performance of sacrifices, and so many other things, only by Kṛṣṇa bhakti can be achieved, then he's assured. Dr. Patel: This is the last verse. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...yuktena. Now just this woman is carrying a load on her head, how she's keeping balance. He cannot do that. Dr. Patel: That is Rāmakrishna Paramahaṁsa said. No, no, that is not Indira Gandhi. Rāmakrishna Paramahaṁsa said the same thing as you say... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...that she should remain... Prabhupāda: It is not Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. This is śāstric. Dr. Patel: While we're talking about all these things, but the mind is in the load there. Their mind is on the load. *Prabhupāda: So... [break] ...by abhyāsa yoga*-yuktena [Bg. 8.8], everything can be done. *Bhāgavata: Prabhupāda, can you tell us maybe something about Lord Rāmacandra's activities, today being Rāma*-naumi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, you can, some of you can speak about Lord Rāmacandra. No? Dr. Patel, you can speak something about... Dr. Patel: About what? Bhāgavata: Lord Rāmacandra's activities. Prabhupāda: [break] ...tarān niyamena tiṣṭhan. [break] God is not obliged to accept your direction. (laughter) Dr. Patel: He'll not oblige the brāhmaṇas unfortunately. He'll oblige only the kṣatriyas. I don't know why. *Prabhupāda: Because he comes: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. That is kṣatriya's business. Sādhu protection (Hindi). This is kṣatriya's business. God has got two business. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. If you want to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad*-gītā, it is difficult. (laughs) It is not possible. He says that "I have got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām, dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya..." Unless these two things are there, there cannot be establishment of real law and order. [break] ...everywhere, law and order. In spiritual also. Unless there is law and order, it is chaos. Law and order must be there. Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the civilization. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Society came into existence after the evolution of the proper civilization. Before, when... [break] Prabhupāda: ...right civilization begins when the society is organized. Otherwise, it's cats' and dogs' civilization. That is not civilization. Unless... Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. The society becomes perfect when the members of the society can understand that this human body is meant for satisfying Viṣṇu. That is the beginning of organized society. So long they do not know that, that is animal society. Because the animals, they do not know that. Dr. Patel: Shall we go back? Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, they do not know. [break] They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme Viṣṇu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions. *Dr. Patel: Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Prabhupāda: Guṇa... Yes. So if the four divisions work nicely, then it is healthy society. Otherwise it is not. If different parts of your body work nicely, then you are healthy. Dr. Patel: Each section of the society has to, I mean, work as a... Prabhupāda: For the maintenance. Dr. Patel: ...part of the whole. Prabhupāda: Whole, yes. That doesn't matter whether you are śūdra or brāhmaṇa. Your aim should be how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is perfect. Dr. Patel: They fall down from their own position. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya, śūdra. If you are conscious that "I have to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to my capacity of work," then he'll not fall down. He'll not fall down. [break] ...fall down from the position, then it is dead society. It is not living society. At the present moment. Yes. If you don't find actual brāhmaṇa, don't find actual kṣatriya, don't find actual vaiśya, so all śūdras. And there is no guide. Therefore chaotic condition. [break] ...ship without rudder? What is called? Yes. They do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any leader. The leader, he says, "No, this aim of life is to drink and enjoy. That's all." This is going on. After diplomacy, politics, when they are tired, they go to the hotel or club and enjoy and drink. That's all. This is their aim of life. [break] ...countries there are even shops, they indulge all these things, topless, bottomless, like that. Because that is the only solace to this materialistic life. There is no other. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. That is their... They have no other pleasure except that sex life. They have no information that there is another pleasure. That, they, they are not educated. So they must come to the sex life only. Dr. Patel: I think this has become very wild after the Second World War. *Prabhupāda: No, no. It is always there. It is always there. That is material world. Material world means that, sex life. That's all. And if you increase it, then you increase your material life more and more. Therefore the process is tapasā brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. The brahmācārya is so much stressed. Tapasā brahmacaryena. Samena damena vā, tyāgena śaucena yamena niyamena vā. This is the process of human life. Nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This human body is not meant for working hard like pigs for sense gratification. So they have been taught to become pigs. No discrimination of sex. The pig has no discrimination. So they have been taught. Not... When it is in śāstra, that means it is from the very beginning. A class of men are like pigs and hogs there are, always. So therefore Rsabhādeva is forbidding his sons that "This human form of life is not to waste like the pigs and hogs." Then what? Tapasā. Tapo divyaṁ putrakāḥ... Dr. Patel: Ṛṣabhadeva's hundred sons. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Tapo divyaṁ putrakāḥ [SB 5.5.1]. *Dr. Patel: Eighty-one sons. Eighty*-one sons. Prabhupāda: Jaya. It is... Human life is meant for tapasya, but where is tapasya? They are simply teaching, "Yes, here is contraceptive method. Take." No,... Wine shop... Dr. Patel: They give it free of charge in the... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is no question of tapasya now. Therefore the whole population is pigs, hogs and dogs. How you can expect peace and prosperity in this society? That is not possible. It is a society of pigs and hogs. Śva*-viḍ... Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. If somebody says, "If the..., it is a society of pigs and hogs, then what about these leaders?" Dr. Patel: They are bigger hogs and pigs. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. That is stated: śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. He's also a big paśuḥ. That's all. Otherwise how he can dare to see that "Bhajan is nuisance"? Because it is paśuḥ. He's not even a human being. Otherwise how he dares say like that? [break] ...reply that dacoit. If I reply, then I have to call him, "You are a paśuḥ." Dr. Patel: And he told me... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...Girirāja, that he wants to reply separately. Prabhupāda: [break] ...why... Dr. Patel: His confidence.(?) Prabhupāda: No. Their reply is murkhasya latośādhiḥ. Dr. Patel: [break] ...mārgam? Prabhupāda: Mūrkhasya latoṣadhiḥ. It is very... [break] ...from this movement. Dr. Patel: I have not read that letter. Prabhupāda: No. Dr. Patel: Which way it has come? Prabhupāda: [break] ...barking, what is the use of arguing with him? Dr. Patel: No, we have not read. I don't know how it came to our... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...talking of this letter of commissioner. Dr. Patel: Oh, commissioner. [break] Prabhupāda: They, because today's Rāma Naumi, they're taking bath? Dr. Patel: Yes, they are taking bath. [break] Prabhupāda: ...says that "Why don't you go to the forest?" Dr. Patel: But that somebody must have told you. Prabhupāda: No, no. One of the important men. What is the name of that...? Girirāja: Yogendrabhai. Prabhupāda: Yogendra. Yes. He's Yogendra. Yogi. Dr. Patel: Yogendra Patel. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the sample of yogi. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. And a yogi says that "Go to the forest." Eh? The rājarṣis are in the forest? Dr. Patel: This is a mūḍha. [break] Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...garland, this girl. Garland just like beads. Satsvarūpa: Make a garland out of stone? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not stone. Satsvarūpa: Shells. Prabhupāda: They are conch shells, small conchshells. They are called gunja, gunja. They are called gunja? [break] Guest (4) (Indian man): ...ahaṁ yogī nikita.(?) So what is that? Can you give me some light on that? *Prabhupāda: Karma*-yogī means one who does everything for Kṛṣṇa. He's karma-yogī. Guest (1): One who does everything for...? Prabhupāda: For Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): For Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just like you are doing, doing some work. For whom you are doing? Guest (1): For my own benefit. *Prabhupāda: That's all. So that is karma. But when you do the same thing for Kṛṣṇa, that is karma*-yoga. Guest (1): But (Hindi), if you do it for others, for Kṛṣṇa, for Kṛṣṇa's... Prabhupāda: Others... Others means... That is also a humbug. You cannot do anything for others. You do everything for yourself. That is a false propaganda. You see? That is humbugism. So either you can do for yourself or for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Guest (1): I see. (Gujarati) Prabhupāda: [break] ...become a slogan nowadays. Nobody does for others. "For others," "For the poor," these are all humbug. Guest (1): You think people are doing something hospitals, that is for others? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also puṇya*-karma. Guest (1): (Hindi) Helping these temples, hospitals...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple construction is different from hospital construction. That is for Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): But suppose somebody's doing hospitals. Is it not for others? Prabhupāda: Yes. But how many you can give shelter? A few. There are so many suffering people. You cannot provide hospitals for all of them. The hospitals are increasing, and the disease also increasing. Guest (1): No, as you say that doing for others is humbug. Prabhupāda: No, no. Humbug means he cannot do it. Guest (1): Ācchā. Prabhupāda: He cannot do it. He can do to his satisfaction only. That is... That is also for his satisfaction. Guest (1): I see. Prabhupāda: Because by opening hospital, you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. Then what you are doing for the others? That is for your satisfaction. Try to understand. Because you cannot do anything, but still, you are wasting your time. That is for your satisfaction. Guest (1): Naturally for myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. You cannot do anything. The hospitals are increasing, beds are increasing, and the diseases are increasing. Then what can you do? Guest (1): We can do our own satisfaction. Prabhupāda: That's all. [break] ...done not meant for Kṛṣṇa, that is for his own satisfaction. Just like Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent: "No, no, Kṛṣṇa. I cannot kill my kinsmen." That is a good proposal. But that was his satisfaction. Guest (1): That is very correct. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his satisfaction. But Kṛṣṇa wanted that "You must fight." And when he agreed to that, that is his perfection. Before that, he was trying to satisfy he. Guest (1): Yes. When he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, that was his... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only purpose of life. Anything that is done, that is useless waste of time. Therefore Kṛṣṇa particularly said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vra... [Bg. 18.66]. That is ekam. You try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only. That will give you perfection. Otherwise your own satisfaction, that's all. Guest (1): Yes, very correct, very correct. Prabhupāda: Whatever you do, that is your satisfaction. That is karma. Guest (1): But not yogi. *Prabhupāda: No, karma. [break] ...for your own sense satisfaction, that is karma. And if you do it for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is karma*-yoga. *Makhanlal: Pure bhakti and karma*-yoga considered to be exactly the same? Prabhupāda: Exactly the same. *Prabhupāda: Pure bhakti is above karma*-yoga. Pure bhakti is above karma-yoga. *Bhāgavata: That is the difference between the Chapter Karma*-yoga and Karma-yoga in Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure, pure devotion means Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Guest (1): I read fifteen percent power cut from today in the state. They have not able to do the service in electric. [break] Prabhupāda: ...cut, cent percent. [break] *Makhanlal: ...you're performing, is the vaidhī*-bhakti stage of... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Makhanlal: ...of the sādhana*-bhakti, the regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: Yes, vaidhī*-bhakti means regulative principles, and when you are accustomed, automatically you perform, that is rāga-bhakti. *Makhanlal: So vaidhī*-bhakti is considered superior to karma-yoga then. *Prabhupāda: No. Karma*-yoga is better. *Makhanlal: Karma*-yoga is better? Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: Pure bhakti is superior. *Prabhupāda: Pure bhakti is ṣravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu*-smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, that is pure bhakti. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: ...formed by anybody. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Yaśomatīnandana: Karma*-yoga. *Prabhupāda: Unless one is inclined to take to devotion, it is not possible to take to karma*-yoga. Who can sacrifice the profit? *Yaśomatīnandana: Does karma*-yoga mean to follow exactly the śāstras? *Prabhupāda: Karma*-yoga means yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi kuruṣva tat mad-arpaṇam. Yaśomatīnandana: Doing only for Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is karma*-yoga. Devotee: Which means? Prabhupāda: "Whatever you do, the result give Me." Devotee: To Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yaśomatīnandana: So we are also, those who are on the vaidhi*-bhakti (indistinct) on karma-yoga path because we are... *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are acting under the order of the spiritual master. That is bhakti*-yoga. Bhāgavata: So when one follows the nine activities of devotion purely, that is pure bhakti. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: Then when he's following those nine activities, then he's superior. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Bhāgavata: Then that's superior to karma*-yoga, to follow those nine principles purely. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Makhanlal: Rāgānugā*-bhakti is also superior to karma-yoga then? Prabhupāda: Bhakti is perfect stage. That is not for ordinary man. *Yaśomatīnandana: What is the difference between karma*-yoga and... or bhakti because they also (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Now go on doing your duty, you'll understand (indistinct). Don't try to understand in one day. Bhāgavata: It will be revealed to us as we act. Prabhupāda: Yes, the more you become in service attitude, things will be revealed to you. (Sanskrit) prakaśante. Becomes, it becomes manifest. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau sam eva sphuraty adhaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. [break] ...answers. Dr. Patel: What I will say now... I will make one man sit between the two, Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: You know what the paramahaṁsas do? Guests: It is mixed up. Dr. Patel: It is what I give to that man. Mix up, then it is far better. Prabhupāda: So they are all paramahaṁsas. Dr. Patel: Then let them miss. We don't mind. But they don't miss that door(?). Guest (2): (Gujarati) Dr. Patel: (Gujarati conversation) [break] Devotee: Till the sun goes down. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Not the sun. Whole day (indistinct) morning. That is how you are passing? If the sun goes down in the night..., day time? [break] Prabhupāda: ...but if one can continue, that's all right. (end) Morning Walk -- April 2, 1974, Bombay Chandobhai: Prabhupāda: Yes, the first qualification is anasūyave. Dr. Patel: Anasūyave, one who is not cajoling against God. *Prabhupāda: No. One who is not envious. A person generally... All conditioned souls, they are envious of God, envious. "Why He should be God? I am God. I am God." So Arjuna is not like that person. Therefore he is speaking to Arjuna. He is devotee. In the Fourth Chapter also, He said bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3]. Therefore Kṛṣṇa does not expose Himself unless one is devotee. This is first qualification. So to understand Bhagavad*-gītā one must be a devotee. The so-called jñānī, yogis, they cannot understand. It is not possible, because they are trying to become God. Although it is simply dream, they can never become, but they are envious, that "Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? I have got so many gods." Anasūyave. *Dr. Patel: Rāja*-vidya rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram idam uttamam pratyakṣa. Prabhupāda: Avagamam. *Dr. Patel: Avagamaṁ dharmyaṁ su*-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the bhakti*-yoga... This is bhakti-yoga. Therefore it is rāja-vidya; means all kinds of learning, it is the king of... Dr. Patel: King of all. *Prabhupāda: So rāja*-vidya and rāja-guhyam, most confident, very secret. It is not... And pavitram, uttamam. Dr. Patel: Pratyakṣa avagamam. *Prabhupāda: And pratyakṣa avagamaṁ dharmyam. If you are jñānī, karmi, yogi, you cannot immediately directly perceive whether actually you have got the thing, but bhakti*-yoga is like that. Bhakti-yoga, if you perform, you will perceive that "Yes, I am in this stage. I am in this stage." That has been described by Rūpa Gosvāmī. Just like when you are hungry and you are eating something, you can understand... (aside:) Don't come very near. You can understand that how much satisfaction you have got by eating. You haven't got to ask anybody, "Whether I am eating?" You can understand. The bhakti-yoga is so nice thing that if you execute it, you will understand your position. And it is su-sukham. To execute bhakti-yoga, there is no difficulty. It is always happy. Just like our program. Program is chant, dance, take prasādam. And if you take yoga system, jñāna system, first of all you have to become a very great learned scholar, and then yoga system, you have to practice so many āsanas, press your nose, and so many things. But here everything is very happy: chant, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dance and then take prasādam, and you understand where you are. This is the su-sukham. And avyayam. Avyayam means whatever little bhakti-yoga you have advanced, that is permanent. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Ah. "And those who have no faith in bhakti*-yoga, they do not get me. They simply labor." That's all. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. They are wasting time. That's all. As soon as we say, the time wasters, they become angry, "Oh, why you are saying? Don't criticize others." But if we say... (Hindi:) Satya bole ta mare latha (laughter) suta jagalda.(?) If you bluff, "Oh, you are doing very nice, you are doing very nice," oh, he will be very pleased. And if I say that "You rascal, you are doing all, simply wasting your time," he will not be... Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is His inconceivable potency. Everything is resting on Him. Without Him, there is nothing. Nothing can exist. Still... The same argument comes again, that because the dog or the anything is resting on me, it does not mean I am dog. Daridra, he is resting on me, that does not mean I am daridra. Yes. This is the... This is wrong conception, misleading people. This kind of coined word, simply misleading people. *Dr. Patel: Na ca mat*-sthāni bhūtāni. Prabhupāda: Yes. I have nothing to do with daridra. He is suffering of his own karma. *Dr. Patel: But here a little difficulty for me. Here on the first line He says, mat*-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4]. Second line He says, na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni paśya me yogam aiśvaram. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Therefore, na ca mat*-sthāni: "Although I am there, I am not there." That is inconceivable, simultaneously not also, just to warn these people that although Nārāyaṇa is within the daridra or the dog, that does not mean I am dog or I am daridra. *Dr. Patel: Bhūta*-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Bhūta*-stha bhūta-bhāvanaḥ: "Everything is coming from Me. I am also within that, but still..." It is called acintya-bhedābheda. "I am there; I am not there." *Dr. Patel: Yathākāśa*-sthito nityaṁ vāyuḥ sarvatra-go mahān. Prabhupāda: Ah, this is the example. *Dr. Patel: Tathā sarvāṇi bhūtāni mat*-sthānīty upadhāraya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this cloud. The cloud we say, "In the sky." The cloud is not in the sky. It is on the air. They mistake this, that "Nārāyaṇa is there." Nārāyaṇa is not there. Nārāyaṇa is separate. That is their foolishness. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because everything is coming from Him. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. Again they are given a chance to prosecute the result of his karma. And there is chance also to become a devotee. Therefore Kṛṣṇa by His confidential servant, He preaches, "Take to this." But if they do not take, then again kalpa*-kṣaye, again enters. Dr. Patel: Kalpādau visṛjāmy aham. Prabhupāda: And again there is kalpa. Again they come out. In this way they do not become liberated. Just like the child, those who are being, what is called, contraceptive method, abortion. These are very sinful. Because they have done killing, so they enter into the mother's womb and they are again killed, and again enter into the mother's womb, and again killed. He does not see the light. Similarly, those who are sinful, they are given chance in material manifestation, "Now work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness." But they do not do that. Again enters, again come out. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. This is going on. How much they are wasting their time, not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Now visṛjāmi. The Gods, He creates. Here they comes. The rascals, they do not believe it, that "There is no creator." The Jains, they do not believe it, that creator has done it. "It has come automatically." Buddhist philosophy is like that, that "Everything is coming by combination..." Dr. Patel: Prakṛti and puruṣa. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is wrong theory. Actually, He says visṛjāmi, ahaṁ visṛjāmi: "I do." Dr. Patel: Prakṛtiṁ svām avaṣṭabhya: "Controlling my prakṛti." Prabhupāda: Avaṣṭabhya, now entering. Dr. Patel: "Entering into My prakṛti, I am sṛjāmi, punaḥ punaḥ." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He is outside; He is inside. *Indian: And then leave it in the control of the prakṛti, prakṛter vaśāt, avaṣaṁ prakṛter vaṣāt. Bhūta*-grāmam imaṁ kṛtsnam avaṣām prakṛter vaśāt. *Prabhupāda: Bhūta*-grāmam, not He. *Dr. Patel: Bhūta*-grāmam, is due to the prakṛti, after creating the bhūtas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing, that just like a judge orders, "This man should be hanged," but the judge is not affected by such thing. He's not affected. Just like you surgical, you are going on surgical operation. You are not affected. The man is crying, "Oh, here, doctor, you are killing me, killing me, killing me." But the killing or not killing, doctor Saheb is not in con-(indistinct). Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the... These rascal atheist class, they think that prakṛti is creating. Prakṛti is creating, that the ocean is created by prakṛti. But why the ocean does not come here? Fifty, sixty yards? Because there is order that "You cannot come here." This big ocean, immediately, in one minute, it can swallow up whole Bombay. Therefore it is controlled. It is controlled by the Supreme. Mayādhyakṣeṇa. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: The whole worldly affairs is going on... The godless atheists, they cannot understand it, that behind this prakṛti, the wonderful prakṛti, so many things happening... It is not happening independently. Dr. Patel: By the order of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mayādhyakṣeṇa: "Under My control." Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Now, these mūḍhas, they will think, "Huh? It is controlled by Kṛṣṇa? He is ordinary man like this." A mūḍha. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto. He does not know how much powerful is Kṛṣṇa, the mūḍha. Dr. Patel: But you see, this is not like this, that those fools... [break] Prabhupāda: That is also another mūḍha, but supposing if Kṛṣṇa says that "I am controlling the whole universe." The mūḍha will not believe it. "Huh? How is that? How...? Such a big gigantic prakṛti, and He is a person. He can control?" The mūḍha cannot understand. He cannot understand that how much powerful is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. They do not know what is the all*-omniscient nature of Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: The spiritual power of Kṛṣṇa. No. Paraṁ bhāva? Moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. Prabhupāda: Therefore, as soon as these rascals, they get little power, yogic perfection, they think, "I have become God. I have become God." *Dr. Patel: Mogha*-jñānā vicetasaḥ. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascal, he thinks that because "I can make like this, little gold, therefore I have become God." The rascal does not think that "I am making, say, two grains or five grains of gold, but one who has made gold mines, millions, so he will be God or I will be God?" The rascal does not think that. And other rascals follow, "Oh, here is God. Here is God. He is creating gold." You see? Therefore mūḍha. *Dr. Patel: Moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. *Prabhupāda: Ah, moghāśā. They are thinking that "I will become like this, I will become like this." Karmis are thinking like this, jñānīs are thinking like this. Yogis are... But they are all false, mūḍhas. Moghāśā. Their hope will be frustrated. Moghāśā. Moghāśā mogha*-karmāṇo [Bg. 9.12]. Mogha means frustration. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo [Bg. 9.12]. Dr. Patel: Rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mohinīm. They are that aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādhṛta-yusmad-aṅghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They are all impure. Their intelligence is not purified. Dr. Patel: Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Now... Now here come in the... These people are moghāśā, moghāśā. Their all hopes will be frustrated. But another class, mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha [Bg. 9.13]. They take shelter of the spiritual energy. Daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ. Because they, the symptom is bhajanty ananya manasaḥ, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." They are not captivated by the so*-called jñānīs, yogis, karmis, no. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Again explained. Satataṁ kīrtayanto. That is their only business. *Dr. Patel: Namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā nitya*-yuktā upāsate. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is being done in every ISKCON center. Satataṁ kīrtayanto, chanting always Kṛṣṇa, namasyantas, offering obeisances. Everything in Kṛṣṇa. This is mahātmā. Dr. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Difficult... The jñāna*-yoga... Indirectly. They are bhajante mām, but in a different way. And the mahātmās, those who are bhaktas, they are directly in the way. And they are indirectly, in this way. *Dr. Patel: Ekatvena pṛthaktvena bahudhā viśvato*-mukham. Prabhupāda: Ah. Ekatvena: "Now, I am, I am God." *Dr. Patel: Pṛthaktvena. Bahudhā viśvato*-mukham. Prabhupāda: Pantheism, pantheism, bahudhā. Bahudhā means God has become pantheism. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. "Everything is I. Everything is I." Because it is His energy, therefore He is. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. The energy and the energetic, they are identical. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Everything, these Vedas, that I am." Vedaiś cāham, aham eva vedyaḥ. So these... There are rascals. They claim that "We are Vedic student. We don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. We don't believe in Bhagavad*-gītā." You know this rascal society? Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Cause and effect. Dr. Patel: Cause and effect. Now comes about the brāhmaṇa class who are making the yajñas. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Svar*-gatim, those who are desiring to go to the Svarga-loka, heavenly planet, they go. They go... Dr. Patel: And come back. Prabhupāda: ...but again come back. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. But those who are devotees, they do not come back. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: This is trayī*-dharma, Vedic process. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: The devotees, they do not care for anybody. Simply depending on Kṛṣṇa. Therefore whatever necessities they require, Kṛṣṇa will supply. *Dr. Patel: Ye 'py anya*-devatā-bhaktā yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ. (Hindi) Te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam [Bg. 9.23]. Ahaṁ hi sarva-yajñānāṁ bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca, na tu mām abhijānanti tattva...[Bg. 9.24]. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is performing yajña. Just like the yajnic brāhmaṇa in Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa went there and asked for some food. "Heḥ!" Dr. Patel: They did not give. Prabhupāda: They did not give. Dr. Patel: Their wives gave. Prabhupāda: All yajnic brāhmaṇas, like that. There are so many fools like that. They are thinking that "I am, we are doing yajñas, I am doing this, I am doing that. What is this Kṛṣṇa? The Kṛṣṇa devotees are less intelligent. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Because these people do not understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, therefore they fall down. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. "Now, the devayājas, they can go to the heavenly planet. Pitṛs and śraddhā performer, they go Pitṛloka. Bhūtejyā. Those who are worshiping this material world, they remain here. But if one worships Me, he comes to Me." Dr. Patel: Come to Me in Goloka Vṛndāvana. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is open, but an intelligent person will think that "Why shall I go to Svarga*-loka? Why shall I remain here? Why shall I go to Pitṛloka? Let me go direct to Kṛṣṇa." Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. That is intelligent, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, to take to Kṛṣṇa wholeheartedly. That is real intelligence. Otherwise mūḍha, whatever he may be. Dr. Patel: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Prabhupāda: Ah. And to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, it does not require any expensive material. If you have nothing to offer, you can offer patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ. He will be satisfied. And performing this yajña and other, oh, you have got to collect so much ghee, so much grain, so much mantras, so many learned brāhmaṇas and this and that. You have nothing to do. Anywhere, any part of the world, universal. Any man, poor man, rich man, can offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He has got. Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. *Dr. Patel: Tad ahaṁ bhakty*-upahṛtam. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhaktya*-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ. Yes. "Because he has offered Me with faith and devotion and love, I accept it." So when Kṛṣṇa eats something from your hand, then what remains? You gain perfection. All perfection is there. If Kṛṣṇa is accepting something from your hand, "Yes, I will eat it." Then? Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Kuruṣva tad mad*-arpaṇam. Therefore this is bhakti-yoga. Whatever you do, the result you give to Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Whatever you do for Him and forget about it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you do for Him, how you can give Him? Because you are thinking that "I am doing for me," therefore you do not give to Kṛṣṇa. You keep it in your pocket. *Dr. Patel: Śubhāśubha*-phalair evaṁ mokṣyase karma-bandhanaiḥ [Bg. 9.28]. Ah, yat tapasyasi kaunteya tad kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam [Bg. 9.27]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tapasi, tapasya. There are many, they are very much addicted to tapasya, suska tapasya. Śūṣka tapasya. There are many stages. Unnecessarily starving, fasting, unnecessarily. Dr. Patel: Karṣanti mām. Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. This is going on. Why? Take Kṛṣṇa prasādam, be happy, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and dance. Susukhaṁ kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. Everything very nice to perform and very progressive, immediately. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sannyāsa*-yoga means sa sannyāsī, the one who acts for Kṛṣṇa, sa sannyāsī. *Dr. Patel: Sannyāsa*-yoga-yuktātmā. Means you have actually, I mean, sannyāsa means nyāsa of all attachment for the... Prabhupāda: Nyāsa means giving up, giving up. Sat nyāsa, sannyāsa. Oṁ tat sat. Sat is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa, that is real sannyāsa, not this dress. This dress is symbolical. That's all. Real thing is kāryaṁ karma karoti ya. Kāryam. "Oh, it is my... Kṛṣṇa wants, everyone should surrender unto Him. Then I shall teach everyone to surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Kāryam. "This is my business." Kāryaṁ karma karoti, sa sannyāsī. What is that kāryam? Kāryam means this is kāryam. Chandobhai: Yajñā dana tapa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You'll take a practical... My Guru Mahārāja gave me hint that book publication is more pleasing to me than Maṭha-mandira. So I took it and I began to publish books and that has come successful. Kāryaṁ karma. I took it, "Oh, Guru Mahārāja wants that books should be published. So let me concentrate on this instead of..." My creating so many centers, big, big temples, that is not my primary duty. My primary duty is to write books. Therefore I am going on still. These are coming automatically. Maybe this is the secret of my success. *Dr. Patel: Sannyāsa*-yoga-yuktātmā vimukto mām upaiṣyasi. Prabhupāda: Ah, karyam, that one should take the order of the guru, because guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. So when one takes... That is explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura in connection with the verse: Dr. Patel: Execute the order of the guru. Prabhupāda: Guru. Yes. Very easy. That is the secret. Yasya deve parā bhaktir tathā deve yathā gurau [ŚU 6.23]. Then he is sure to be successful. This is the secret. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Just see. They bhajanti, and these rascals has announced, "This bhajana is nuisance." Just see. This is Kali*-yuga, and this is our Indian government. Ye bhajanti māṁ teṣam. He is always associating with God. "I am always with him," ye bhajanti, and this rascal has remarked, "bhajana nuisance." Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. These are the statements. But we are... We did not take any... Dr. Patel: They are durācaris(?). Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should have taken some step against this, the "Why you have said like this?" But nobody has taken. Dr. Patel: But we are going to take steps. Let that man come. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here... The first thing is one must have rigid, staunch faith in Kṛṣṇa. That is the qualification. Other things may be little devīation. It doesn't matter. The first thing is whether he is sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then he is sādhu. *Dr. Patel: Ananya*-bhāk. *Prabhupāda: Ananya*-bhāk, yes. He has no other business. Dr. Patel: Because he is samyag vyavasito, he is rightly doing. Prabhupāda: "Although there are some bad habits," kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ, "because he is My devotee, he will not be lost. He will take to the right position." Dr. Patel: I'll read this twice, and twice we are... Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: He has made a promise. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kaunteya pratijānīhi. He has not promised. He says Arjuna, that "You declare this." Because sometimes for His devotee He breaks His promise. But because His devotee Arjuna will promise, it will be never frustrated. "Oh, My devotee has promised." Therefore He says, kaunteya pratijānīhi, "You do this." Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: This is the conclusion, bhajasva mām. Again bhajana. Dr. Patel: The highest... Prabhupāda: Bhajasva mām. Again He's saying, bhajasva mām. Dr. Patel: The highest comes now. Prabhupāda: That is the highest... Dr. Patel: Highest comes now. *Prabhupāda: You know, while commenting this verse, Dr. Radhakrishnan, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see. After reading so much he said, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Mūḍha. (laughs) There is a Bengali proverb, sat*-khanda rāmāyaṇa pāde, sitera na baba.(?) After reading the seven khandas..." Indian man: Yes, he's Bengali. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. After reading the whole *Rāmāyaṇa* he is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" Similarly, this Dr. Radhakrishnan, after reading the whole chapter, he is advising, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much rascal he is. And he is passing on as a great scholar. *Dr. Patel: I will read this three times. Man*-mana bhava-mad-bhakto. (goes on) Prabhupāda: This is the conclusion. *Dr. Patel: "When completely yourself are settled in Me, you have got to come to Me. You can't go anywhere else." Again I will read the last. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. *Prabhupāda: Very simple thing. You always think of Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā, you become His devotee, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yājī, worship Kṛṣṇa, and namaskuru. Where is the cost? No expenditure. If you think of Kṛṣṇa, if you worship Kṛṣṇa, if you offer obeisances to Him... Therefore this Deity is there. For these purposes. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Simply by doing these four things, he is becoming liberated so much that he is going back to Godhead. That's all. [break] ...movement is very scientific movement, based on the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. Most scientific. [break] We may be proud. Because this is scientific, therefore it is so quickly progressing. [break] ...take. This is mām cult. [break] ...so I was, that "I want to start this movement," I was talking. So he very much appreciated and he promised in writing that "As soon as I retire I shall join with you." He wrote me. Dr. Patel: But then we have to tell him that "Come on, you are retiring. Join. And if you..." Prabhupāda: That I wrote also. He was silent. Dr. Patel: Now, you just tell him if you are following me here, there is one Dr. Patel who will take you. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...come for treatment. Why shall I? [break] Eight years old, older than me. So I am seventy*-eight. Maybe eighty-six. Yes. He was also of the same age. Older than me. Dr. Patel: You were all the time in Allahabad. You must be knowing them from very close part. *Prabhupāda: No, he was my customer. I used to go to his home. And he was coming to my shop. Yes. He was my customer. When 1928 congress was there, I sent him one letter that "I want to become a delegate and go there." So immediately, "Yes, you come." So I went to Calcutta and I told his secretary that "Panditji has told me like this." "Yes, take this ticket." Yes. I became... So I was criticizing my friend because the delegate fee is one rupee and the reception committee fee at that time was twenty*-five rupees. And still, they were in the last seat. And because at that time Motilal Nehru became president, the president, the province in which the president becomes, that provincial member occupies the first seat. So we occupied the first seat from Allahabad. So I... Dr. Patel: Front seats. *Prabhupāda: Front seat, yes. So I was criticizing my friends in Calcutta that you have paid twenty*-five rupees, you have got last seat. I have paid one rupee, I have first seat. We were very thickly... Not very thickly, but as customer... Do you know? I shall tell one incident. One day Jawaharlal Nehru came and he asked me, "Give me prophylactic hair brush." So I told, "Panditji, we are selling prophylactic tube brush and we do not know that there is prophylactic hair brush." "No, you do not know. You get it for me. I want it." So I got it from Bombay, here, and supplied him. Dr. Patel: There is no prophylactic hair brush anywhere. Prabhupāda: No, I got it, prophylactic hair brush. Dr. Patel: Somebody writes on it, on the name "prophylactic." Prabhupāda: It may be whatever it may be. Now, just see that how much country conscious he was. He wants prophylactic brush. Not only that. I will tell you another incident. I was manufacturing one medicine, jagon(?) poultice. That is like anti-(?). So doctors were prescribing in Allahabad. So there was one big doctor, Dr. R.N. Banerjee Rai Baba. So sometimes I was seeing the doctors. So when I went there, "Oh, it is very difficult to prescribe country medicine." "Why?" "Oh, you will be surprised. I prescribed this jagon poultice in the Nehru family." He was physician. "And Motilal Nehru said, 'Oh, doctor, excuse me. In the matter of medicine, you don't prescribe country medicine.' " Just see. Believed in him. Dr. Patel: Gandhiji was never asking anything, for medicine much. *Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. I know these people, this Nehru family. They were completely Europeanized. Outwardly for them... Even up to the last point of his life, if some European would come, he would immediately receive him. And if an Indian wants to see him, "Oh, it will be..." You will have to wait at least one. Everything London*-made is very good. That was Jawaharlal Nehru's idea. Indian: That was absolutely opposing the Sardar Patel. Anything he wrote to another white skin, "All right, let him be." Lenin, we see, after all. Lenin. Prabhupāda: That is also not good. But these people, they are svadeśi, for country, but I know them very well. Dr. Patel: No, he was right up to the end very conscious about this. Because of his Oxfordian education. I think he was in eternal hell, one of these things.(?) [break] Prabhupāda: England. He was educated in England, but who can become... Dr. Patel: Absolutely. It was a miracle, the greatest miracle. Prabhupāda: Yes. He was... From very beginning of his birth, he is Englishman. Dr. Patel: He was not allowed to speak Bengali by his parents. Prabhupāda: Just see. Because in those days... [break] Dr. Patel: We are forgetting Sanskrit very quickly. Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are interested... Dr. Patel: Now the schools, they don't teach as in our times. [break] Prabhupāda: As soon as the kṣatriyas were negligent, immediately the brāhmaṇas should take step. That was the system. [break] ...offer advice to the kṣatriyas according to śāstra, and kṣatriyas would execute, and the vaiśyas would care for supply. And the śūdras, serving everyone. That's all. This is the system. [break] So he used to manufacture. To manufacture means śūdra. (end) Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: But if one cannot execute in such a way, he can take little fruits. That's all. Dr. Patel: Shall we? Śṛnu me paramaṁ vacaḥ. Prabhupāda: Bhūya. He has already spoken so many important things; still, He wants to give information of further important part. *Dr. Patel: Yat te 'haṁ priyamāṇāya vakṣyāmi hita*-kāmyayā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "Because these things are to be spoken to My dear devotees, priyamāṇāya, for the special benefit of the devotees, not for the ordinary man." Bhūya eva mahā*-bāho [Bg. 10.1]. Mahā-bāho, this word is used, "mighty-armed," who is very strong in devotional service, mahā-bāho. Bhūya eva mahā-bāho sṛnu me paramaṁ vacaḥ [Bg. 10.1]." Mahā-bāho, because you are My great devotee, therefore I am speaking further, very important subject matter." Next line? Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. Even the... Na me viduḥ sura*-gaṇāḥ. Sura-gaṇāḥ means demigods, and what to speak of the rascals? How the rascals, simply by little educational qualification, can understand Kṛṣṇa? Dr. Patel: Prabhavaṁ, the original. Prabhavaṁ. Prabhupāda: No. Prabhavaṁ means influence, influence, prabhava. Dr. Patel: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Now, just try to understand this. Na me viduḥ sura*-gaṇāḥ [Bg 10.2]. (Hindi) ...demigods, big, big demigods, they cannot understand Him. How the rascals with little education can understand? This is the meaning. Na me viduḥ sura-gaṇāḥ prabhavaṁ [Bg 10.2]. How much influence... The maharṣayaḥ, big, big saintly ṛṣis also, they cannot understand. Aham ādir hi devānām. Devānām means the first devas: the Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. So Viṣṇu is He Himself. Even Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, they do not know. Devānām. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Yo mām ajam. Ajam. "Because Kṛṣṇa appears as born of Vasudeva and Devaki..." That is mūrkha. He appears. He appears, ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san, sambhavāmi. That is His extraordinary power, how He ap... But when one understands that He is aja, there is no birth of Kṛṣṇa... Aja, and? Dr. Patel: Maheśvaram. Prabhupāda: Maheśvaram, mahā īśvaram. There are īśvaras, but parameśvara or mahā-īśvara, that is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. All these good qualities, they are also coming from Him. Matta eva. Dr. Patel: Good and bad, all qualities. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no bad. There is nothing bad. But... Dr. Patel: Bhava abhāva bhayaṁ ca abhayaṁ ca. Prabhupāda: Bhayaṁ ca abhayaṁ ca, contradictory, yes. That means all contradictions can be adjusted in Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, "The whole prajā, population, they are born of Me." Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, tattvataḥ, to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ. Dr. Patel: Rightly. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the actually essence of Bhagavad*-gītā. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo and mattaḥ sarvam. Sarvam means including Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Sarvam. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate iti matvā. One who understands this. Bhajante. So just... The bhajana is for whom? Iti matvā. When one understands that Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything, even the original demigods, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara, when one understands perfectly this thing, then his bhajana is perfect. *Dr. Patel: Budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ. Prabhupāda: Bhāva, bhāva. Bhāva means love, feelings, feelings of love, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so great." *Dr. Patel: Mac*-cittā mad-gata-prāṇāḥ. Prabhupāda: And that is being described. Dr. Patel: Bodhayantaḥ parasparam, kathayantaś ca māṁ nityaṁ tuṣyanti ca ramanti ca. Prabhupāda: Ramanti ca, yes. So instead of talking of Kṛṣṇa, they talk of politics, sociology, all nonsense. Simply waste of time. *Dr. Patel: Mad*-gata-prāṇāḥ. *Prabhupāda: One cannot talk of Kṛṣṇa unless he is kṛṣṇa*-gata-prāṇāḥ. Kṛṣṇa-gata-prāṇāḥ. Just like your loveable objects, you cannot forget even for a moment, similarly, one who has developed real love for Kṛṣṇa, he cannot do without thinking of Kṛṣṇa, without talking of Kṛṣṇa, without acting for Kṛṣṇa. Mad-gata-prāṇāḥ. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore one who has taken to this... Sometimes these Māyāvādīs rascals say that the bhakti is meant for the less intelligent class of men. So how he can be less intelligent? Kṛṣṇa says, teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. So Kṛṣṇa personally gives you intelligence. So how He can be less intelligent? *Dr. Patel: He gives intelligence that, dadami buddhi*-yogam. *Prabhupāda: Ah. And what kind of buddhi*-yoga? Dr. Patel: "By which you can reach Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. By which he can go back to home, back to Godhead. That kind of buddhi*-yoga. Not this buddhi-yoga, how to exploit the whole world and become Hiranyakasipu. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Teṣām. Who are those, teṣām? Not all. Satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, teṣām. It is a special favor for them. Teṣām evānukampārtham. So if Kṛṣṇa dissipates ignorance from the heart of a person, how he can be less intelligent? If somebody is guided by the most perfect intellect, intellectual, then how he can be less intelligent? So these Māyāvādīs' accusation that bhakti is meant for the less intelligent class and jñāna is meant for the higher class of men, so this accusation is refuted that "No, don't think that the devotees are less intelligent, because I am guiding them." *Dr. Patel: Nāśayāmy ātma*-bhāva-stho, aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ. Tamaḥ nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho. Prabhupāda: Tamaḥ. No more ignorance, darkness. So how a devotee can be in darkness, in ignorance? This is refuted. Dr. Patel: Now arjuna uvāca. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, what is Kṛṣṇa, is to be understood from Arjuna. This is paramparā system. Paramparā system. Arjuna talked with Kṛṣṇa personally. So his experience is first*-hand. So how this rascal can imagine of Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa is like this, Kṛṣṇa is like that." If you actually reading Bhagavad-gītā as Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept it. This is called paramparā. So what is the experience of Arjuna? Arjuna said, "You are, you are the Supreme Personality, puruṣam. You are not female. You are not prakṛti. You are puruṣa, śaśvata, and the original, śaśvatam, eternally." Not that, the Māyāvādīs, "Now impersonal..." Yes, read one line. That is sufficient. *Dr. Patel: That same line. Puruṣaṁ śaśvataṁ divyam ādi*-devam ajaṁ vibhum. *Prabhupāda: Ādi. Yes. Govindam ādi*-puruṣaṁ. Ādi-puruṣam, He is the original person. Person. He is not imperson. Puruṣam is not imperson. Brahman is impersonal, but Paraṁ Brahman is not impersonal. That is Kṛṣṇa. So therefore it is called paraḥ, param. Brahman realization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "You inquire about Brahman." *Dr. Patel: All*-pervading, vibhum. *Prabhupāda: Vibhum, yes, all*-pervading. Just like the same example. The sun. The sun is all-pervading by sunshine, but still, sunshine is not important as the sun globe. This is to be understood. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa... Let us understand one line. Param Brahmān. Brahmān, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. But they are Parabrahman. Īśvara, everyone is īśvara. That's all right. But not everyone, Parameṣvara. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Dr. Patel: Everyone is puruṣa, but not puruṣottama. *Prabhupāda: So paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. Dhāma. Dhāma means resting place. Mat*-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4]. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma, and pavitram. Pavitram means you are not contaminated by these material modes. Pavitraṁ paramam, Supreme. Now the question is that if Kṛṣṇa is paraṁ pavitra... Now sometimes they criticize that "Kṛṣṇa danced with the other girls. So how He can be contaminated?" Dr. Patel: Not contaminated. *Prabhupāda: Not contaminated. Apāpa*-vidham. As it is said, apāpa vidham aśnaviram. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aśnaviram means not material body. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aśnaviram apāpa-vidham. Dr. Patel: Kavir manīṣiḥ paribhuḥ svayambhūḥ... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is being explained, yes. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. *Dr. Patel: Puruṣaṁ śaśvataṁ divyam ādi*-devam ajaṁ vibhum. Prabhupāda: Yes. Divyam. Divyam means spiritual. Tapo divyam. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. That is the instruction of Rsabhādeva, "My dear boys, you engage yourself in tapasya." Now, what kind of tapasya? Tapo divyam, for spiritual realization. Now, materialists, there are big, big scientists, big, big archeologists and so on, so on. They are also undergoing tapo. Without tapasya, nobody can become eminent. So they are also undergoing tapasya. Suppose one who has manufactured this atomic bomb. This is also tapasya. But not this kind of tapasya. Tapo divyam, for understanding Kṛṣṇa. To understand Kṛṣṇa, that tapasya required. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Now people may say that "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend, so he is eulogizing Kṛṣṇa like anything." Therefore he is giving evidence that āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarva: "It is not my sentiment that I am accepting you as such and such. But..." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. [break] He is giving evidence. This is required. This is required. If you say something, it must be supported by authorities. Not that my whimsically I say something like daridra nārāyaṇa. *Dr. Patel: Again you say, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Unauthorized statement. This will not be accepted. So āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Vyāsa. Ultimately Vyāsa. Dr. Patel: "Even You say so." Svayam eva. Prabhupāda: "And You also say." Dr. Patel: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavān vyaktiṁ... [Bg. 10.14]. *Prabhupāda: Now, this is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā, that "Whatever you say, I accept as truth." Not that "This portion..." Interpretation: "This portion I don't like. This portion is nice." No. Everything is nice. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, everything is correct. That is understanding. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Vyaktim means? Prabhupāda: Vyaktim means his personality, personality, vyaktim. Dr. Patel: "Nobody knows Your personality in truth." Prabhupāda: So foolish people cannot understand what is the Personality of Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore to understand You is to take information from You, not from others. What Kṛṣṇa says... Dr. Patel: Svayam evātmanātmānam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you know yourself, what you are. Nobody knows. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa, or God, is to accept whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad*-gītā. That is real understanding. *Dr. Patel: Bhūta*-bhāvana bhūteṣa deva-deva jagat-pate. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Vaktum arhasy aśeṣeṇa divyā hy ātma*-vibhūtayaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Deva*-deva. "There are many demigods, but You are also..." Dr. Patel: Deva of the devas. *Prabhupāda: Ah. "You are the supreme of all of them, deva*-deva. You are worshiped by the devas." Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Now, this is to be understood, how "You are all*-pervading by Your influence, by Your power." That means "You are always there." "You" person is there. Just like a big man, big businessman, is sitting in his room, but he is all-pervading, all-pervading. Dr. Patel: But he must have got special powers deputed to certain people. And these are that vibhūtis. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is vibhūti. That does not mean... Māyāvādī philosophy is: "Because He has spread everywhere, therefore He is imperson." He remains person, without any change, avyaya. But still, He is spread. That he is asking that "How I shall understand You, that You are spread everywhere." Akhilātma*-bhūtaḥ. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is... So we have to understand from Kṛṣṇa how He is all-pervading, not that mental speculation. "Just like if you take a thing and distribute all over, the original thing is lost." Not like that. Original Kṛṣṇa is there. Dr. Patel: Pūrṇam idam [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is intelligence. How Kṛṣṇa is all*-pervading, you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa and think like that. That is meditation. That is meditation, how Kṛṣṇa is all-per... Just like in the beginning also, Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. So similarly, another explanation is going to be set up here. Dr. Patel: Now Dr. Patel: And the first important: Prabhupāda: Yes, ady anta, this creation. Before this creation, Kṛṣṇa was there. Kṛṣṇa was there. When the creation is going on, it is maintained by Kṛṣṇa, and when it is dissolved, then it enters into Kṛṣṇa. Prakṛtiṁ yānti māmikam. *Dr. Patel: Aham ātmā guḍākeśa sarva*-bhūtāśaya-sthitaḥ. Prabhupāda: "And I am ātmā, Guḍākeśa. I am ātmā. Therefore, because My part and parcel is spreading, so that part and parcel, particle, that is the basic principle of everything." Just like this body. This body is based on that part and particle, soul. Because the soul was there, the body has developed. Dr. Patel: Otherwise body would perish. It does rot. Prabhupāda: Yes. The body develops so long the ātmā is there. So similarly, because Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore whatever manifestation you see, that is due to Kṛṣṇa. Now here the latest theory of the rascals, that life has come from matter, is refuted. Dr. Patel: That is Carvaka's theory, this Karl Marx, the communists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now He says aham. Aham is living entity. So living entity is the origin of everything. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, this is also another nice thing, that the modern astronomers, they say that all these stars are sun, sun. Do they not? Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: But just like Kṛṣṇa says, "They are just like moon." Just see. Nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśi. So śaśi means the moon. Moon is like one of the stars. So if you say the stars are sūrya, then there is contradiction. How the moon and the sun can be equal? But actually, that is not. According to our Vedic astronomy, there is one sun only in one universe, although there are millions of universes, we cannot count. So there are millions of suns. That is another thing. But within the universe there is only one sun, and by the brilliance of sunshine, all these stars and moons are glittering. Just like moon shining, being reflected by the sun, similarly, all the stars they are glittering, being reflected by the sun, not that all of them are different suns. This theory is refuted. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: The Sāma*-vedas mean the realization of God by singing, by music. That is Sāma-veda. Dr. Patel: By music. I am the soul of the music. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore hari*-kīrtana. Hari-kīrtana is Sāma-veda, glorifying the supreme. That is stated in some other place. Yam brahma-varunendra-rudraḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair vedaiḥ sanga-pada-kramopa... Dr. Patel: Kramopanisadair gayanti yam samagaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Gayanti. So gayanti, chanting, is following the Sāma*-veda, and Sāma-veda, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am especially Sāma-veda." Dr. Patel: Devānām asmi vāsavaḥ, indriyāṇāṁ manaś cāsmi bhūtānām asmi cetanā. "I am the..." Cetanā means...? Prabhupāda: Life. Knowledge, knowledge. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Skanda means Karttikeya. Dr. Patel: Yes. Karttikeya. Maharṣīṇāṁ bhṛgur ahaṁ girām asmy ekam akṣaram. "I am oṁ." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Yajñānāṁ japa*-yajño 'smi. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. This is there. Japa*-yoga, Hare Kṛṣṇa, this is the first-class... Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Now, the Kapila Muni. Who is that Kapila Muni? Dr. Patel: That Devahūti's son. Prabhupāda: Son, yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: King, king, king. Yes. Dr. Patel: King. But not these kings, (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: But they are not kings. They are mlecchas. They are not kings. Asaṁskṛtāḥ kriyā*-hīnā mlecchā rājendra-rūpinaḥ. They have assumed the post of king, but otherwise they are mlecchas, asaṁskṛtāḥ. There is no saṁskāra, and kriyā-hīnā, they do not perform the Vedic rituals. So they are all rascals. So how we can be happy? Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Cupid. Dr. Patel: Reproduce, produces. Prabhupāda: Yes, Cupid. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Jhaṣāṇām, "Of all the aquatics, I am the makara." Dr. Patel: Sargāṇām ādir antaś ca madhyaṁ caivāham arjuna. That means "I am the very time." Sargāṇām ādir antaś ca madhyaṁ caivāham arjuna. Prabhupāda: Yes, time, kāla, kāla, creation. *Dr. Patel: Ahyātma*-vidyā vidyānāṁ vādaḥ pravadatām aham. Prabhupāda: Pravadatām aham. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: The woman's voice is very attractive. Because people engage woman for singing. Their voice is naturally attractive. "So that attractive voice, I am. I am." Dr. Patel: Kīrtiḥ śrīr vāk ca nārīṇām, smṛtir medhā and dhṛtiḥ and kṣamā. These are the feminine qualities. "There I am. I am kṣamā, I am dhṛtiḥ, I am medhā, I am smṛtir and I am the melodious sound of women. I am kīrtiḥ and I am śrīr." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Ah. (laughs) Pāṇḍavānāṁ dhanañjayaḥ. Dr. Patel: "I am you." That means "I am you." Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Munīnām apy ahaṁ vyāsaḥ kavīnām uśanā kaviḥ. Prabhupāda: Not "I am you." That is Māyāvāda. Dhanañjaya especially, not the rascals. Dr. Patel: "You" means he is talking with whom? Dhanañjaya. Prabhupāda: That's all right, Dhanañjaya. You can take, Dhanañjaya. Not that general people. Dr. Patel: But that is what He says, that "I am you." Kṛṣṇa says... Prabhupāda: Not you, Dhanañjaya. "You" means... Why you are changing the word? No, no, it is said, Dhanañjaya. You say Dhanañjaya. Dr. Patel: Pārtha, Dhanañjaya, He is... Prabhupāda: Yes. And after... Dr. Patel: But he is talking with Dhanañjaya. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot make it an impersonal. As soon as you say Dhanañjaya, He is person. Dr. Patel: Oh yes, that way. That way you are right. Vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi. That means He is the father of even Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes, Vyāsadeva is incarnation of God. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Nītir, by argument, by logic, when one becomes victorious, that victory is Kṛṣṇa, nītī. Without Kṛṣṇa... Chandobhai: It is God's victory, not his. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dr. Patel: Yac cāpi sarva*-bhūtānāṁ bījaṁ tad aham arjuna. "There is... Seed in everything is, I am." Prabhupāda: Yes, because everything is His energy. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: "That is due to My influence, all these things." Dr. Patel: Aham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekeśena sthito jagat. *Prabhupāda: This is only ekāṁśa vibhūti. All this described, this is only one part. The three parts-in the spiritual world. This is all description of the material world. Now, this is only one part manifestation, and the three part manifestation*-in the spiritual sky. *Chandobhai: Tri*-pāda... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: This thing. Today is Ekādaśī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Moha, moho 'yam... "What you were, now I have lost. I was thinking that you are an ordinary friend, but now that moha is gone. I understand You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: No, why trouble? Kṛṣṇa knows everything. Dr. Patel: For himself. Arjuna is creating trouble for himself. *Prabhupāda: No, he is creating trouble for himself because the rascals will represent that "I am incarnation of God." Therefore Arjuna is asking him, "Now show me your virāṭ*-rūpa." So these rascals, bewildered by these so-called gods, they should ask, "Show me your virāṭ-rūpa. Then I shall accept you." That is the process. Not that "I am incarnation of God." How you become incarnation? Just lift one hill. Or show me virāṭ-rūpa. Or show me that you have sixteen thousand wives and you are maintaining them in sixteen thousand palaces. Then you call yourself that "I am incarnation of Kṛṣṇa." Otherwise, you rascal, I cannot believe you. For them. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa... He knows what is Kṛṣṇa, but because in future some rascal will come and will say that "I am incarnation of God," therefore it is a warning that before accepting one rascal as incarnation, you ask him to show virāṭ-rūpa. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. So because Arjuna was not accustomed to this impersonal theory... Dr. Patel: Even the pastime, rūpa vi...(?) *Prabhupāda: Yes. But he wanted to see the virāṭ*-rūpa. Therefore he said, "If you think that I shall be able to see, then You can give me." Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Śrī bhagavān uvāca, paśya me pārtha rūpāṇi śataśo 'tha... [BG. 11.5] Prabhupāda: So it was not difficult for him. Immediately He showed him. That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that "I shall show you some day privately." Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Just like mother Yaśodā saw within the mouth of Kṛṣṇa the whole universe. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Ah. "Because you are not accustomed to see this virāṭ form, therefore I give you special vision to see it." Dr. Patel: Dr. Patel: One of the features of His multiple features. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Virāṭ*-rūpa. Not that the... Māyāvādīs take the virāṭ-rūpa is the origin, and this rūpa, Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. Therefore they are called Māyāvādīs. But actually, Hari manifested or exhibited... Dr. Patel: One of his multiple... Prabhupāda: Multiple features. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Arjuna uvāca. These boys understand this, all of them? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I will explain. *Dr. Patel: Now Arjuna says, paśyāmi devāṁs tava deva dehe sarvāṁs tathā bhūta*-viśeṣa... *Prabhupāda: Devāṁs, devāṁs, tava deva dehe means "devas, the demigods, they are part and parcel of Your virāṭa*-rupa." They are not independent. Just like this finger is part of my this whole body, similarly, all these devas, these demigods... That is explained previously. Ye 'py anya-devatā bhaktā yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ, te 'pi mām eva. If you give something to my finger, that is to be given to my body, but that is avidhi-pūrvakam. The thing's to be given to the mouth, not in the hand. But their logic is, because everything is the same, why not here? That is Māyāvāda. Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes, Brahmā rāmeśvaram. Rāmeśvaram means Viṣṇu. Rāma īśvara, and Brahmā, Lord Brahmā, and... *Dr. Patel: Kamalāsana*-stham ṛṣīṁṣ sarvān urugāṁṣ ca divyān. All wonderful things. *Prabhupāda: Now even in His virāṭ*-rūpa, He is person, kirīṭina. He has got helmet. Kirīṭina. Then? Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Must be frightened. Now, suppose all of a sudden, if you see a very big person, you will not be frightened? Because you are not accustomed to see that. *Dr. Patel: Anādi*-madhyāntam ananta-vīryam ananta-bāhuṁ śaśi-sūrya-netram paśyāmi tvāṁ dīpta-hutāśa-vaktraṁ... [Bg. 11.19] *Prabhupāda: Now here is one important thing: śaśi*-sūrya-netram. The śaśi, the moon, and the sun are the two eyes of God. Now in Brahma-saṁhitā it is also confirmed yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. So in the Upaniṣads it is said, "When God sees, then you can see." So this... When the sunrise is there, that means when God sees, you can see. In the darkness you cannot see. And still, you are proud of your eyes. Yes. Without God seeing, you cannot see. And still, these rascals are proud of their eyes. "I can... Can you show me?" How you can see? First of all you have to see through the Supreme. And another significance is that you cannot hide yourself from the seeing of the Supreme. You cannot make anything hiding. Because even in the womb there is sunshine, sunlight. So He is seeing there. Apart from being the Paramātmā, from materially also, His eyes are always there. So you cannot do anything hiding. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: So everyone is worshiping Him. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: They do not understand. If you go on simply reading... Dr. Patel: But you say read, so I read. You order me, I stop. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Shall I read again? Prabhupāda: What is that line? *Dr. Patel: There are so many lines. I will again. Aneka divya... Divi*-sūrya-sahasrasya bhaved yugapad utthitā... *Prabhupāda: Ah, this is the comparison now, that divi, "In the sky, if there were thousands of suns at a time, then the brilliance of the virāṭ*-rūpa could be understood." This is an example. Dr. Patel: He saw everyone in him. Prabhupāda: ...in Him. Then he got... Dr. Patel: Then he got frightened and then he... Prabhupāda: The varieties, varieties. The varieties, he is seeing. That is the vision of the Vaiṣṇavas. The Vaiṣṇavas also know that everything is one, but he sees the varieties. Dr. Patel: I will read again from this. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: You get credit just by cramming. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: Ah, read it. Girirāja: Prabhupāda: There must be the word meaning. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: Arjuna uvāca, Arjuna said. [break] Prabhupāda: ...friend yesterday. Dr. Patel: Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Ah. So let us begin from the Eleventh so that word meaning they may understand. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Now try to understand the word meaning. Girirāja: (reads synonyms) Dr. Patel: It is in relation to the previous, this thing, that Tenth that He showed you all the vibhūtis in various conditions of the creation, and by understanding the various vibhūtis, Arjuna said that "I have practically got disillusioned by this explanation." That is what he said. Is it all right? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is clear. Any question on this? Dr. Patel: All right. Shall I go on? Prabhupāda: No. So what is the translation? Girirāja: "Arjuna said: I have heard Your instruction on confidential spiritual matters, which You have so kindly delivered unto me." Dr. Patel: There you see here the last, last... [break] Prabhupāda: ...means, now we have discussed Tenth [break], what is the confidential? Satsvarūpa: About Kṛṣṇa Himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: This is the confidential. Viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. That is the most confidential. "Only by one of My this thing, the whole jagat is being supported. Why do you want to talk about nonsense of so many things? Only one thing is important and that is this." *Prabhupāda: So... Yes. So unless one is convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of all causes, sarva kāraṇa*-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1], he has not understood the confidential subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the con... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Unless one comes to this conclusion, that "Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything," ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, iti matvā bhajante mām, he cannot be fixed up in the worship or serving Kṛṣṇa. This conclusion must be reached. Dr. Patel: The next word is telling the same thing as you say. Prabhupāda: Now the opposite. This is the conclusion, that one has to understand that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes, He is the origin of everything. So why do they divert their attention to other subjects? Dr. Patel: Because of the māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. And what is that māyā? Dr. Patel: That Kṛṣṇa is... [break] Girirāja: Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary human being. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: They think that "Kṛṣṇa's body is just like mine." *Prabhupāda: This is Māyāvāda. This has been explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Dr. Patel: That's right. It was in me. Any of your ideas, it is, other than Kṛṣṇa, is māyā. Prabhupāda: Please let me explain. Matir na kṛṣṇe. No, just explain. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Parataḥ means "from other sources." Just like I am explaining. That is parataḥ. And svato means... Dr. Patel: Means Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: I will explain everything. Svato means personally, sva. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha*-vratānām. Or mithaḥ. There are three sources of understanding. Dr. Patel: What is that mithaḥ? *Prabhupāda: Mithaḥ means just like we are studying altogether. Mithaḥ means in congregation. Abhipadyeta gṛha*-vratānām. Dr. Patel: Of the embodied people. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Gṛha*-vratānām means those who are attracted to this... Gṛha means this worldly family life. Gṛha-vrata. Gṛha. Gṛha-vrata. So those who have decided that "We shall remain in this gṛha, for them, either personally or from others or by conference, the matir na kṛṣṇe." Dr. Patel: They do not have that mind fixed on Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot. Why they cannot? Adānta*-gobhir viśatāṁ tamiśram [SB 7.5.30]. This gṛha-vrata means their sense enjoyment. This gṛhastha life is a concession for sense gratification, license. Actually, it is not required. Sex life is not required. But those who cannot avoid the sex life, they are given some license, "All right, you enjoy sex life, marry one woman, remain as faithful husband and wife." So unless one determines that "This is not my life, gṛha-vrata..." Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. In another place it is said also, by Sukadeva Gosvāmī, one who cannot understand what is his self-interest, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam, actually what is needed, what is the need of the soul, gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām... The gṛha-vrata and gṛhamedhi, these two words are for persons who are too much attached to this worldly life. So this determination already is there, that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Iti matvā bhajante mām. One who understands this perfectly well, he can be engaged in the matter of rendering service to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very difficult. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato va. Dr. Patel: Swami Nārāyaṇa has answered in this way, that any of your matir... Prabhupāda: Swami Nārāyaṇa... Dr. Patel: No, no, I speak. Any buddhi other than giving Kṛṣṇa is māyā. Anything you think other than Kṛṣṇa is māyā. Prabhupāda: Then when he thinks that "I am incarnation of Kṛṣṇa,"... Dr. Patel: He has not said. Prabhupāda: ...it is not māyā? Dr. Patel: He had not said so. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: If tomorrow these boys say that you are incarnation of God, is it your fault? Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: That is what it is. Tomorrow these boys say, after you pass away, that you are incarnation of God. It is not your fault. Like that, people will say so. I have not said so. Prabhupāda: But that is going on. The other day one, another Swami Nārāyaṇa came. I ask him "Why there is no picture of Kṛṣṇa?" Dr. Patel: That we will discuss after... Prabhupāda: He also said like that. "No, because..." Dr. Patel: Why do you want to divert? Prabhupāda: Yes. You diverted. You brought Swami Nārāyaṇa. We don't accept Swami Nārāyaṇa as authority. We don't accept that. Chandobhai: Let us hear the guru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Chandobhai: Then what happens further? Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is not real form. Real form is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Aiśvaram rūpam. *Prabhupāda: This is a form for less intelligent. Those who are thinking "The God must be horizontal form. God, how He can be a human*-like form?" God is great, so he is thinking of greatness of God. Somebody thinks that, according to his own idea. Greatness means they have got idea, "The sky is the greatest." So God must be of the form like sky. Yes. So what is the...? Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: O lotus-eyed one, I have heard from You in detail about the appearance and disappearance of every living entity, as realized through Your inexhaustible glories." (reads next synonyms) "O greatest of all personalities, O supreme form, though I see here before me Your actual position, yet I wish to see how You have entered into this cosmic manifestation." *Prabhupāda: Entered. So just like it is to be understood. He's very intelligent. Now, I am... As soul, my magnitude is described. What is that? Keśāgra-śata*-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Keśa agra, the tip of the hair, divide into hundred parts. And again take that one part and again divide into hundred parts. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Now, it is simply, it is to be imagined. Kalpitasya. Jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ. That is the magnitude of the jīva. Now, that magnitude of jīva has entered in this body or in the elephant's body. Now, which is important, the body is important or that small particle is important? Dr. Patel: Small particle is important. Prabhupāda: Ah. Therefore those who are materialistic persons, they are amazed with the huge body of this universe. But Arjuna is saying that "On account of Your entering..." As this body has developed on account of entering, that minute particle or spiritual spark, similarly, there are innumerable universes. All these universes, they have developed. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa's entering as Garbhodakaśayī Viṣṇu. That is explained in the last chapter. Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: So darśayam, darśaya. "Now, how You have, I mean to say, manifested yourself in this cosmic, gigantic cosmic manifestation?" So if it is possible, kindly... So the point is: this gigantic cosmic manifestation is dependent on Kṛṣṇa, not that Kṛṣṇa is one of the product of this gigantic manifestation. Girirāja: (reads synonyms) (Prabhupāda interrupts) Prabhupāda: Here Kṛṣṇa is addressed, "Yogeśvara," because the yogic power, that is estimated very much important by the ordinary class of men. So He is the master of all yogic power. Just like here, that gold maker? Girirāja: Sai Baba? Prabhupāda: Sai Baba. He is showing little yogic aiśvarya. But people are, because they do not know, they are not aware of Kṛṣṇa, they are taking him as God. You see? Girirāja: (reads rest of synonyms for this verse) "Translation: If you think that I am able to behold Your cosmic form, O my Lord, O master of all mystic power, then kindly show me that universal self." *Prabhupāda: Now, here is the description of how God manifests. So unless one reads Bhagavad*-gītā carefully, they will be misled by this avatāra, that avatāra, that avatāra. You see? Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupāda: No. One after another. Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: The Blessed Lord said: My dear Arjuna, O son of Pṛthā, behold now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine forms, multi-colored like the sea." *Prabhupāda: This is another instruction. That I explained, that before accepting a so*-called incarnation of God, one should ask him to show that "How you are God?" But they do not ask him. A group of persons... Because he is accepted by a group of persons, not by all... There are so many avatāras. But who knows them? Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupāda: Let us understand it. Don't be anxious to go forward. This is the..., that... Suppose a man declares himself that "I am avatāra." So intelligent man should test him, how he is avatāra. We accept Kṛṣṇa or Lord Rāmacandra for their uncommon activities. But what is the uncommon activities, so many avatāras? Simply being praised by a group of persons. That's all. Yes. Dr. Patel: Paśyādityān vasūn rudrān aśvinau marutas tathā [BG. 11.6]. Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, he's saying that paśyādityān. Ādityān, plural number. Not only one, plural number. Ādityān means the Sūrya... Dr. Patel: Sūrya and all those twelve sons. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, ādityān. So here they cannot estimate the influence of one Āditya, and here he is showing all the Ādityas. Dr. Patel: Within Him. Prabhupāda: Within Him. That is Yogeśvara. *Dr. Patel: All ādityāns, vasūns, rudrān, aśvinau and the Marut. Bahūny adṛṣṭa*-pūrvāṇi paśyāścaryāṇi bhārata. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: (reads synonyms Bg. 11.6 up to:) "adṛṣṭa-that you have not heard or seen;" Prabhupāda: Yes. Even which Arjuna did not hear before, that was also shown. What was heard by him formerly, that was also shown and unheard of, unseen, that was also. Girirāja: (reads rest of synonyms) "Translation: O best of the Bhāratas, see here the different manifestations of Ādityas, Rudras and all the demigods. Behold the many things which no one has ever seen or heard before." Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: So this is, this is... You can... Mama deha. So the so*-called incarnations of God, they should show in their body all these things. They must be accepted by the śāstra that he is avatāra. Otherwise, why so cheap avatāra, we shall accept? Girirāja: (reads synonyms) Prabhupāda: (interrupting) Altogether. Dr. Patel: Kṛtsnam means all, complete. Prabhupāda: Yes, so that means there are innumerable universes and that was exhibited by Kṛṣṇa in His boyhood. Girirāja: (continues synonyms) "adya-immediately;" (etc.) Prabhupāda: What the modern scientists will say, that the..., all the universes were shown in the body of Kṛṣṇa. So what is the, I mean to say, what is called, action, reaction, reaction of the modern scientists? Girirāja: They don't believe. Dr. Patel: Even they are now trying to find out stars further and further with a bigger and bigger... Prabhupāda: They cannot see even one universe, and here it is said that "All the universes, innumerable universes." So what these...? *Satsvarūpa: Their reaction is: "Simply because it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā does not mean it actually happened." They don't think it happened just because it is written here. *Prabhupāda: No, no, happened or not happened. But you have no estimation, even one universe. You cannot say like that because you are a fool still. Even though it did not happen in the body of Kṛṣṇa, but you have no estimation, you cannot know what is the sun*-god or sun planet or moon planet. You cannot go there. So what is the value of your knowledge? If the statement of Bhagavad-gītā has no meaning, then what is the meaning of your scientific knowledge? You are not perfect. So how you can say? Because you are imperfect, so you cannot say against Bhagavad-gītā, which is accepted by all the ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... Don't be in hurry. Just finish one word. That is sufficient. Dr. Patel: Oh yes. *Prabhupāda: Without understanding, if you follow like a storm, that is no use. That is no use. Slow, but sure. Go slow... And that is the defect in the modern. If somebody can recite Bhagavad*-gītā like storm, it is to be understood he has perfected himself. No. Let him explain at least one word of Bhagavad-gītā. That is wanted. Slow, but sure. That is going on. The professional Bhāgavata reciters, they jump over Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā. The rascal does not explain the first line of Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. It requires many years to understand that one word, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], and he jumps over, "Bhāgavata recitation means rāsa-līlā." That is going on. That has spoiled the whole atmosphere. Therefore that rascal has been able to challenge that Kṛṣṇa, that, what is that, rural? Satsvarūpa: "Popular rural god with sixteen thousand wives." Prabhupāda: That's it. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And he is writing about Kṛṣṇa, "rural boy with sixteen thousand..." First of all, he does not know that when Kṛṣṇa was rural boy in Vṛndāvana he had no sixteen thousand wives. You see. Still, these rascals say, "rural boy with sixteen thousand wives." Dr. Patel: When He had this rāsa dance, he was only seven years. Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, actually, He had sixteen thousand wives when He was in Dvaraka, but these rascals say, "Rural boy." "Rural boy" means when He was in Vṛndāvana. So he does not know even the history, and he is trying to write about Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. And that is the proof. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God, because you cannot maintain even one wife at the present moment. So He maintained sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God. That is the proof. But they will not take that side. They will take in other way, "Oh, this is all stories and fictitious." That's all. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. They do not know. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and they try to write upon Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa was an avatāra. Therefore I am also avatāra." These things are not very good. Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely." *Prabhupāda: That is avatāra. So nobody can compare. In the Vedic literature it is said, na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat*-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate. Nobody can be equal to Him. Sama, sama means equal. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate: "Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him." That is Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as one claims that "I am also Kṛṣṇa," he is a bogus immediately. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "draṣṭum-to see..." Prabhupāda: How one can see? Suppose I am seeing this material sky. I cannot see what are there, not even the stars at the present moment, although we know there are millions and trillions of stars. So this is my power of seeing. So how can I see all the universes in the body of..., unless he gets a special power from Kṛṣṇa to see. Girirāja: (completes synonyms) "Translation: But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence." Prabhupāda: Now, this is Kṛṣṇa's power. Let us understand. A teeny aeroplane is floating in the air, and it is making so much sound. And millions and trillions of planets are floating, there is no sound. There is no sound. [break] ...if you take it and fix it up... What is that? One thousand or more than, one thousand miles. Dr. Patel: A second. Prabhupāda: No, no. This earth, per hour. Dr. Patel: Earth is rotating and also going round... It has got two movements. Prabhupāda: Anyway, but we cannot understand any movement, but it is moving. The force is there. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "tataḥ-thereafter..." *Prabhupāda: Just see. Sañjaya was speaking in the room to Dhṛtarāṣṭra and he said that "Now He showed." That means he was seeing. That is another television. Another television. That television is unknown now. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. Premāñjana*-churrita-bhakti-vilocanena. This is also television. The television machine is within the heart. One can see everything, provided he has learned the art how to see, that television within the heart. Girirāja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: Sañjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna." Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: So even in the universal form, there is personality. Divya*-mālya, divya-gandha, kirīṭina, dressed, well-dressed. Well-dressed is possible not in the imperson. If you want to dress somebody, he must be a person. You cannot dress in the sky. "Here is helmet, here is garland." Where you put? (laughs) So in the universal form also there is personality. Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "ābharaṇam-ornaments; divya-divine..." Prabhupāda: You have to understand. *Girirāja: "Aneka*-various..." Prabhupāda: Aneka. So here is the word, aneka. Ana eka, "more than one." So what is that aneka? Dr. Patel: Everything, aneka. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dr. Patel: Innumerable you can say. Chandobhai: I mean (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Aneka, that is confirmed in the *Vedas*, eka puruṣam. That is aneka. That is aneka. Dr. Patel: Eka puruṣam. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Although He is one, He can manifest. He is exiting, not manifest. He is existing in aneka. And what is that aneka? Aneka means expansion of svāṁśa... That is... Therefore we require reference from many śāstras. In the Varaha Purāṇa this aneka explained*-svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. Svāṁśa, expansion of the Viṣṇu-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. He has expanded Himself in so many incarnations, rāmādi, like Rāma, not this loafer class. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs. 5.39]. This is aneka. Another aneka-mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhuta [Bg. 15.7]. They are also aneka. Anantāya kalpate. So all the Viṣṇu forms and all the living entity forms, altogether, he was able to see in the body of Kṛṣṇa. That is aneka. Yes, go on. Girirāja: (continues synonyms to:) "mālya-..." *Prabhupāda: Aneka. There are aneka ayuddhas. Every Viṣṇu form has four symbolic representation-śaṅkha-cakra-gadā-padma*-and they are differently situated. People do not know it. They... It begins. Just like here śaṅkha, then next, cakra, then next, gadā, then padma. Then here begins padma, here begins śaṅkha, in so many. Chandobhai: Differently. Dr. Patel: Combination, combination. *Prabhupāda: Yes, changing. These are in the śāstra, siddhārtha*-saṁhitā, how many forms are there. This is aneka. Not evasively, that "All is one." No. There are so many, so many varieties, variegated, all spiritual, aneka. *Girirāja: "Mālya*-garlands..." Prabhupāda: These things are there. Each of them were garlanded, had helmets, had, I mean to say, ornaments. Everything aneka. *Dr. Patel: Mālyāmbara*-dharam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dress, everything, garment, all varieties. Girirāja: (continues synonyms to:) "divya-divine..." Prabhupāda: Divine. That means they are not material. Kṛṣṇa's dress, Kṛṣṇa's helmet, Kṛṣṇa's bedding, Kṛṣṇa's shoes, they are all expansion of Lord Sesa. They are not material. Girirāja: (continues synonyms to:) "aścaryamayam-wonderful..." *Prabhupāda: Although this is virāṭ*-rūpa, still, there are aneka, many varieties. And each one of them is personally described. Yes. Girirāja: (continues synonyms to end) "Translation: Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes." *Prabhupāda: Unlimited mouths. The unlimited person. As soon as you say, "unlimited mouths," means unlimited person. That is not imperson. Even in His aneka*-mūrti He is person. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Second Chapter, that all we remained person in the past, we are persons at present, and we shall continue to become persons in the future. So this impersonal description of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is for the persons who do not understand what is God. Girirāja: "It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed..." *Prabhupāda: Again personality. And where do they get the idea of impersonal, even in the virāṭ*-rūpa? How do they get? What is the authority? Chandobhai: Gopīs are personal. *Prabhupāda: No, no, everything is being described as person. So where is the question of imperson? Even in His aneka mūrti, in the virāṭ form, universal form, there are persons. At least from Bhagavad*-gītā, nobody can prove that the Absolute Truth, God, is imperson. That is not possible. But still, they are doing that. That means they do not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, although they are very much proud of regular scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. So am I right or wrong? Let us discuss. Chandobhai: He is both personal and impersonal. Prabhupāda: No, no, why? Dr. Patel: You are right. *Prabhupāda: No, here it is described person. Although the virāṭ*-rūpa is there... Virāṭ-rūpa is considered... *Chandobhai: Virāṭ*-rūpa is personal. Prabhupāda: Personal. So but... Indian man: Kṛṣṇa has also declared... Dr. Patel: For personal communication... Indian man: Kṛṣṇa says that I am both personal, impersonal, and I am above that. Prabhupāda: No, no. That imperson does not mean that He is not spiritually person. Impersonal means He does not become... That... This description of person, they are not these material persons. Chandobhai: Ah, then it's all right. Spiritual personality, everyone believes. That's correct. Then there is no rift. Spiritual personality... [break] Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. They, these Māyāvādīs, they think, "Originally the Absolute Truth is avyakta. Now He has assumed, Kṛṣṇa, the form, accepting a body of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda. Abuddhayaḥ. They have no intelligence that spiritually the Lord is always vyakti, a person. Either Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, any way, He is always person. Girirāja: "He was garlanded gloriously and there were many scents smeared over His body." Prabhupāda: It is all personal description: "Dress, ornaments, flowers, garlands, scents." This is offered to the person. *Girirāja: "All was magnificent, all*-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna." Prabhupāda: This is spiritual. Unlimited. Yes. Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: (reads synonyms) (end) Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay Dr. Patel: Which śloka, Girirāja, 19? Girirāja: No, 23. Dr. Patel: *Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that bahu*-vaktram bahūdaram. That means bahu persons, many persons, all persons. What is that? *Girirāja: "Rūpam*-form." Prabhupāda: Form. First thing is form. Although virāṭ, but it includes so many forms. Then? Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "bāhu-arms..." Prabhupāda: Arms, He is exhibiting many. The same formula. Eko bahu syām. (indistinct) Then? Girirāja: (Continues reading synonyms to:) "bahu-daṁṣṭrā-..." Prabhupāda: "Many bellies" means a personal form. Daṁṣṭrā karālām. Girirāja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: O mighty-armed one, all the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your many faces, eyes, arms, bellies and legs, and Your terrible teeth, and as they are disturbed, so am I." *Prabhupāda: Kāla*-rūpa, kāla-rūpa. This is called kāla-rūpa. Then? Yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: (reads synonyms) Dr. Patel: At the same time, all the gods were seeing the same thing? *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, this word has been used, "all*-pervading, all-pervading forms." It does not mean that because all-pervading, there is no form. Form is there always. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: O Lord of lords, O refuge of the worlds, please be gracious to me. I cannot keep my balance seeing Your blazing deathlike faces and awful teeth. In all directions I am bewildered." Dr. Patel: There is no comment on that. *Prabhupāda: ...earth, earth, and pāla means kings. Protectors, rāja*-pāla. *Dr. Patel: Our rāja*-pāla, Giri. [break] Girirāja: "All the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra along with their allied kings, and Bhīṣma, Droṇa and Karṇa, and all our soldiers are rushing into Your mouths, their heads smashed by Your fearful teeth. I see that some are being crushed between Your teeth as well." Prabhupāda: [break] ...leaders, they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects. "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" Although within their lifetime they were very, very big leaders, but they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects and flies. That's it. [break] ...plans, but there is no plan how to stop... Dr. Patel: Death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, how to stop this forceful entering into the mouth of the kāla. Just like a very good example: When there is fire and all the insects and flies, "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" That's it. Attracted by the beauty. Similarly, all these big, big leaders, being attracted, bahir*-artha-māninaḥ... They have been described in Bhāgavata, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking this beautiful nature as everything, "There is no other thing." Dr. Patel: There is very good description in Twelfth..., these things. [break] Girirāja: "I see all people rushing with full speed into your mouths as moths dash into a blazing fire." [break] Prabhupāda: The doctors also will enter. (laughter) Not only the patient, but the doctors also. Don't think that doctors will be excused. (laughter) No, no. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] Dr. Patel: Just like... Prabhupāda: He was thinking, "Oh, why shall I kill?" Dr. Patel: "If I don't fight, they will live." Prabhupāda: Yes. It is already planned. So even if you don't kill, it is there already. Girirāja: (reads synonyms for following verse:) "Translation: The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you, the Pāṇḍavas, all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain." Dr. Patel: Shall I read further, sir, or you want to comment? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is going on. Although we have got so many plans to save, nobody can be saved. The destination, the bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19], that will go on. Simply vīta*-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ [Bg. 4.10], they will be saved. Otherwise all finished. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? [break] Girirāja: "Translation: Therefore get up and prepare to fight. After conquering your enemies, you will enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasācin, can be but an instrument in the fight." Prabhupāda: So this is very important verse, that by kāla, by time, due course of time, everything will be destroyed. So our duty is uttiṣṭha... Dr. Patel: Fall in line with His wish. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He wishes sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. This is our duty, not that "I have got that duty, that duty, that duty." That duty, that duty will not save you. They will be destroyed. Dehāpatya-kalatrādi. This is explained in Bhāgavata. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Droṇaṁ ca bhīṣmaṁ ca jaya... [break] Prabhupāda: ...hesitating to kill Droṇa or Bhīṣma. They are teachers. But it is duty. Kṛṣṇa wanted. Because they were on the wrong side, they must be killed. That was Kṛṣṇa's desire. So he should execute. Jaya. [break] *Girirāja: "The Blessed Lord said: All the great warriors-Droṇa, Bhīṣma, Jayadratha, Karṇa*-are already destroyed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies." *Prabhupāda: So this is our duty. Just like in this particular case, about our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that so many people are giving me the credit. Actually, I have no credit. It is already desired or it is already planned that "This time in Western countries, this saṅkīrtana movement..." So it is our duty. Similarly, our only duty is to carry out the order of the Supreme. Other things is already done by Him. So if we abide by the orders of the Supreme, then we get the credit. We should know that. So our only thing is to abide by the... That is... Another place, Bhagavad*-gītā, is explained Dr. Patel: Consult your ātmā within in action. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, to receive the order of Kṛṣṇa, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], one should approach the bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa and take order from Him what to do, and that is his only duty. That is his only duty. Otherwise he will manufacture so many duties. That will not be helpful to him. That niscayatmika-buddhiḥ, that has been very nicely explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, that "Whatever order I receive from my guru, that is my life and soul. I don't mind whether I'll be liberated or not, whether I will be successful or not. That is not my concern. My only concern is to see whether I am factually, faithfully carrying out the order of my guru." This is... Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura notes. So these things are being explained in the same way that "You do not think which is right or wrong. You simply... I have asked you to fight. You go on fighting and take the credit. That's all." Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Sañjaya uvāca... [break] Girirāja: "Sañjaya said to Dhṛtarāṣṭra: O King, after hearing these words from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Arjuna trembled, fearfully offered obeisances with folded hands and began, falteringly, to speak as follows." *Prabhupāda: So without seeing viśva*-rūpa, simply by abiding by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if we act, then there is no question of trembling. *Dr. Patel: So we must not try to see the viśva*-rūpa, to tremble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: "O Hṛṣīkeśa, the world becomes joyful upon hearing Your name, and thus everyone becomes attached to You. Although the perfected beings offer You their respectful homage, the demons are afraid, and they flee here and there. All this is rightly done." [break] *Prabhupāda: Siddha, there is a Siddha*-loka. So they can fly from one planet to another without any machine, siddha-saṅgāḥ. Means the aṣṭa-siddhi yogas, they have got naturally. *Dr. Patel: All aṣṭa*-siddhis, they have got. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are called siddha, Siddha*-loka. Just like here if anyone wants to walk over the water, he requires to acquire so much mystic power. You see? Some of the yogis. But you will find one bird, skylark, one swan, he is very easily doing. Dr. Patel: They have siddhas from the birth. Prabhupāda: So they are trying to get that siddha, the perfection, by so much yogic process, but another living entity, without understanding any yogic process, can do that. So these things are not very great gains. There are... In different planets there are different living entities. Just like we cannot touch fire, but in the sun globe there are also life, human beings, but their body is made of fire. Just like in the water. I cannot go into the water, but there are so many small fishes, they are living very nicely. So this we do not know. We are trying to gain success in these material activities, but by God's will, there are different living entities. They have already all the successes. So therefore our real business is not to waste our time to get any material success. Our real business is how we shall be successful to become an obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is real success. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Let me explain this. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja was offered benediction, "Now you take benediction." So he said that "Where is benediction? I have seen my father was so powerful materially that even the demigods, they were frightened. So even if I get certain material successes, but you can finish it within a second. So why shall I take all these benedictions? Please engage me as the servant of your servant. That is my success." Dr. Patel: Perpetual engagement in the service of... *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is vaiṣṇava*-vicāra. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] It means they must. [break] Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "O great one, who stands above even Brahmā, You are the original master. Why should they not offer their homage up to You, O limitless one? O refuge of the universe, You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation." Prabhupāda: So our duty is to accept the original Supreme, Kṛṣṇa, because... *Dr. Patel: He is ādi*-kartā. *Prabhupāda: Ādi*-kartā. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupāda: ...purāṇas, not new manufactured. [break] If I have to offer my obeisances and surrender, why not to Kṛṣṇa? Why an imitation Kṛṣṇa? Why? Just like if you go to purchase some medicine, the shopkeeper may say, "Now, here is a medicine equal to this medicine, and its price is less." So no sane man will purchase. "Why I shall purchase the imitation for being less price? Give me the original." [break] ...the life of Ramakrishna. It is said that at the time of his death he said to his disciples, especially to Vivekananda, that "I am the same Rāma, I am the same Kṛṣṇa," and he took it. And he preached that "This Gadadhara Chatterjee, Ramakrishna." That's all. Then if he is referring to the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, so why not take the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? What is the proof? Simply by his words one can accept? Just like he is taking the proof, Arjuna. Yes. Girirāja: "You are the original Personality, the Godhead. You are the only sanctuary of this manifested cosmic world. You know everything, and You are all that is knowable. You are above the material modes. O limitless form, this whole cosmic manifestation is pervaded by You." Prabhupāda: Now, instead of accepting the original, real thing, why people accept imitation? What is the reason? Dr. Patel: Because they get the earthly benefit much quicker by worshiping the lower gods. That is why... Prabhupāda: No, no, not lower gods. Lower god, I am not speaking. Imitation god. Lower god, demigod, they are lower. That is already... I mean to say somebody says that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, same Rāma." Why he is accepted like that, giving up the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? What is the reason? *Dr. Patel: Guru*-bhakti. *Prabhupāda: What is that guru*-bhakti? Guru never says that "I am Rāma-Kṛṣṇa, I am..." That is rascaldom. If any guru says that, then he is not guru. Dr. Patel: He is rascal guru. *Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, not guru. Rascal cannot be guru. You cannot add this. Then they are the same, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. Nārāyaṇa cannot be daridra; daridra cannot be Nārāyaṇa. Similarly, rascal cannot be guru, and guru is not rascal. So this is a question. I am inquiring from you. Why people accept this imitation? Satsvarūpa: They want to be cheated? Prabhupāda: No, they don't want to be cheated, but... Of course, they are cheated. What is the psychology of accepting imitation false god? I am asking you. You, doctor sir. Dr. Patel: I have no answer. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. Why you should imitate? Dr. Patel: He has got the answer. Prabhupāda: Yes, answer. Yaśomatīnandana: Because they are less intelligent. Dr. Patel: He is more intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes, he has accepted Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is more intelligent than these rascals. Yes. He has accepted the original. He is not going to accept any false imitation. Therefore he is intelligent, more intelligent. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break] Girirāja: "You are air, fire, water, and You are the moon. You are the supreme controller and the grandfather. Thus I offer my respectful obeisances unto You a thousand times, and again and yet again." [break] Prabhupāda: Here is paramparā. Now, if we follow the footsteps of Arjuna, and we should surrender like that... Dr. Patel: (next verse, Sanskrit) [break] *Prabhupāda: ...studying Bhagavad*-gītā. If somebody recommends that "We accept this false," then what kind of business this is? Everyone says, "Oh, we have studied Bhagavad-gītā." (laughs) What you have studied? You are attached to some false imitation, and how you have studied? So am I right, Mr. Sar? Dr. Patel: You are always right. Prabhupāda: No, no. You are not properly answering. (laughter) I know that. Now... Dr. Patel: You come into altercation unnecessarily. *Prabhupāda: No, no, there must be paripraśna. There must be paripraśna. Paripraśna is required, but in submissiveness with reasoning, not like vagabonds, no. Paripraśna must be there. Now, after reading Bhagavad*-gītā, if somebody says that "Here is an imitation God accepted," is that very nice thing? This should be discussed. Otherwise, if we stick to our original principle and go on reading Bhagavad-gītā three times a day, then what is the use? What is the use? Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? (Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupāda: Answer. Dr. Patel: It will be unanswerable by me. I have to submit. Otherwise you may fire me unnecessarily and create trouble, and I create trouble for you. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I will not fire. I'll not fire. We are coming to reasoning. Without paripraśna, reasoning... Either you should accept that you should not, anyone, recommend any imitation... *Dr. Patel: We accept God what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā, all right, in toto. *Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we are actually student of Bhagavad*-gītā, we should accept it in total instead of deviating from that. That is my request. We are teaching that. Why one should deviate? *Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa is one reality. He may have many forms. He may have many names. Kṛṣṇa is one reality. He is correct. But He can have many names. Eko sad*-viprā bahudhā vadanti. *Prabhupāda: Bahudhā vadanti, but bahudhā are mentioned. Mentioned. Just like Viṣṇu*-sahasra-nāma. That is in the śāstra. Therefore, if you take one of the names, then you have to refer to the śāstra, not that you manufacture one word. That you cannot do. Indian man (2): The śāstras were also made by men, sages. Prabhupāda: No, no, then which one you will accept? Indian man (2): ...by the realized person. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śāstra means... Indian man (2): But you cannot say that in this age there are no realized persons. Prabhupāda: No. It must corroborate. Indian man (2): Corroborated by whom? *Prabhupāda: Corroborated by you. By you. If somebody says that "I am correct," then you have to refer to the śāstra whether he is correct or wrong. Just like a medical man. There is characteristic of certain chemicals. That is mentioned. So when accepting some chemical, the medical man tests in his laboratory whether it is correct. Not that somebody brings some chemical, some bunch of lime, and he says, "It is sodium chloride," or "Something, something." It must be tested. So the testing method is mentioned there, that the avatāra means, "This avatāra means his feature of body is this, his work is like this, he will come on such and such." Just like Kalki avatāra. Kalki avatāra, it is mentioned in the śāstra... Although He will come after four lakhs of years, it is stated in the śāstra that in Sambal... Sambal, in the house of Viṣṇu*-josi, Kalki-avatāra will come. Dr. Patel: In central provinces. Prabhupāda: Not central provinces. Not mentioned there. Sambal it is. Dr. Patel: In northern part of India. *Prabhupāda: No, that is also not mentioned. Simply Sambal. And Bhāgavata was written five thousand years ago, and there is also mention of Lord Buddha's name. Kikaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati. Bhaviṣyati. This word is used, "in future." So this is śāstra, that even the incarnation will come four lakhs of years after or 2,500 years after, still, there is mention. His feature, his work*-everything is there. Why should we accept a false imitation unless it is corroborated by the śāstra? You cannot say everyone is realized soul because he recommends something. No. We have to corroborate. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the defect of our understanding, that we accept everyone as realized soul. How he is realized soul? If he is speaking something wrong, how he is realized soul? Against the śāstra. That is not realized soul. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim avāpnoti [Bg. 16.23]. Śāstra reference must be there. Dr. Patel: In śāstra all the signs, symptoms, and characteristics of a siddha are mentioned. And those characteristics must be there with the siddha. *Prabhupāda: Yeah, then we shall accept. Sādhu-śāstra*-guru-vākya tinete karīyā aikya. Śāstra will say, and guru will say, "Yes, it is rightly said." Saintly person also will accept. Just like Kṛṣṇa is accepted by Arjuna. Paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. He immediately mentioned that "Such sage, authorities, accept. The śāstra says." Not that because Kṛṣṇa was His friend, he accepted blindly. No. That is corroboration. Whether it is mentioned in the śāstras, whether other saintly persons... Just like there are so many avatāras, but we have got our ācārya-sampradāya, Rāmānuja, Yamunācārya. Whether they are accepting? Not a third class man accepted, and it is accepted. The ācārya. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. This is the way of accepting. [break] Everyone will create his authorities, and unlimited imitation of God will come into existence, and people will be diverted from the reality. [break] The same example, that "Here is an imitation medicine, very cheap, as good as the original one." Even taking it for acceptance that it is as good as the other one, but why in the presence of the original, I shall accept this imitation? What is your answer? Accepting this imitation is as good as the other, but if the other original is present, I can get it, why shall I go to the imitation? [break] Indian man (2): No, no, that is my understanding. You correct me. According to me, *Vedas* are first. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): You also say that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): *Vedas* only repeat the Vedic rites. *Indian man 3: Veda means Vedānta. Vedānta*-sūtra comes afterwards. [break] Prabhupāda: *Purāṇas* are not Vedānta? Indian man (2): *Purāṇas*, how can it be? (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is your mistake. Indian man (3): Well I, I'm not a... Prabhupāda: You see, Madhva... [break] They are supplementary to the *Vedas*. Dr. Patel: These are the agamas and nigamas. Prabhupāda: This is the Māyāvādī's version. They do not accept the *Purāṇas*. This is Māyāvādī version. But our paramparā system, Madhvācārya, he has accepted *Purāṇas*, *Rāmāyaṇa*, *Mahābhārata*, as Vedic literature. So we have to follow the ācārya. Ācāryavān puruṣo... Yes. Not only Madhvācārya, all, all other ācāryas. Indian man (2): Ācārya, ṛṣis, they have got all different... Dr. Patel: But those people are following Śaṅkarācārya... *Prabhupāda: Yes, but Śaṅkarācārya accepted Bhagavad*-gītā. Then... He commented, and he accepted Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: His commentation is different, you see. *Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. He has accepted Kṛṣṇa, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. He has accepted. You have read, Bhagavad*-gītā. He has accepted. Dr. Patel: Yes, I have read it. Prabhupāda: Then why the Śaṅkarites will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? [break] ...destructful question that *Vedas* and *Purāṇas*...? No. Śaṅkarācārya accepted. If you are real follower of Śaṅkarācārya, you accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. *Indian man (2): Śaṅkarācārya also accepted Śiva also. Śiva and Kṛṣṇa is non*-different. Dr. Patel: No, don't say that. (Hindi) (laughter) Prabhupāda: They worship Viṣṇu. They worship Viṣṇu. Indian man (2): They worship Viṣṇu but their prime deity is Śaṅkara, and not... Prabhupāda: No, no. They worship five mūrtis. So they give equal im... Because Śiva is also not ultimate. Śaṅkarācārya's thesis is "Ultimately, the Absolute Truth is nirākāra." Not even Śiva. Therefore, either Śiva or Viṣṇu or Gaṇeśa, the same thing, same thing. They are not sticking with the Śiva form. They worship Viṣṇu form, also Gaṇeśa, as it is recommended in that book. [break] The difference is there. That difference is there. But we have to take which is correct. Indian man (2): According to their realizations, you see. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to take which is correct. Indian man (2): Who can take... You see, I... [break] Prabhupāda: ...if you know which ācārya is correct. Indian man (2): Oh which ācārya. So if your conscience... [break] Prabhupāda: Ācārya means one. Ācārya... Just like Vedavyasa. Vedavyasa. (Indian man talking in background) [break] Now, then you must know what is God. That is God. Indian man (2): So why talk about ācāryas and why discuss these things? Prabhupāda: No, no. Why discuss not? Discussion must be there to understand. First of all, if God is... Indian man (2): There should be no uncompromising attitude regarding other's views. You see we must have our attitude of brotherhood. [break] Prabhupāda: What Vyāsadeva says? That is described in the... Dr. Patel: What Vyāsadeva says. Different ācāryas' interpretation... Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no interpretation. How can you interpret? Indian man (2): [break] ...follow ācārya. You see... [break] Prabhupāda: Ācārya means not foolishly. Indian man (2): Foolishly? There should be rational outlook. Yes, I agree with you. There should be rational outlook about all these things, and then, you see... Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva says, Vyāsadeva says that, in his all writing, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Indian man (2): That is all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. So kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Indian man (2): Śivo 'ham. Śivo 'ham. Prabhupāda: Śivo 'ham is another thing. Indian man (2): No, that is also there, you see. You can't forget that... [break] Prabhupāda: ...when require first of all. If you... (Hindi) Interpretation when required, when you cannot understand. But if you understand, why should you interpret? Indian man (2): No, he has interpreted. Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all, let us understand where interpretation is required. Dr. Patel: When there is a difficulty in understanding. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. When there is difficulty in understanding. But when there is no difficulty in understanding, then why there is interpretation? [break] ...by Kṛṣṇa in the Eleventh Chapter, where is the difficulty to understand? Indian man (2): Then why these ācāryas have interpretated *Gītā*? Prabhupāda: No, no, real ācārya will not interpret. The one who is false ācārya, he will interpret. Indian man (2): So Śaṅkarācārya was not a false ācārya. He has interpreted *Gītā*. He has got a big bhāṣya of *Gītā*. Rāmānujācārya has got a big bhāṣya of *Gītā*. [break] Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Dr. Patel: This is the real thing, what the *Vedas* say, that even though, after studying all and after you think that you are realized, though in keno... [break] Prabhupāda: ...wasting your time. Dr. Patel: No, we are not wasting our time. Still I may tell you sir, that we are not wasting our time. Prabhupāda: No, if you read, then why you are wasting time? Dr. Patel: This is my interpretation. [break] *Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not realized. No, no, no. No, no, no. I have realized... [break] ...should stop discussing Bhagavad*-gītā because Bhagavad-gītā begins, evaṁ paramparā. Indian man (2): (shouting unintelligibly) Prabhupāda: No, no. [break] ...as the ācārya. And we have to accept. Dr. Patel: What I mean to say that realized people don't criticize because final proof nobody knows. [break] *Prabhupāda: Sarvārhanam acyutejyā. Simply by worshiping Kṛṣṇa, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], you can worship everyone. There is no need of separately worshiping the five devatās. There is no need. Girirāja: (reads synonyms for Bg. 11.13) "Translation: At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands." Prabhupāda: Yes. So, although... Now, what is important? The many, many thousands universes divided into varieties of opulences, that is important or Kṛṣṇa important? Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is important. Prabhupāda: That's it. Dr. Patel: The whole thing was ekāṁśena sthito jagat. Prabhupāda: That is being explained. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Then, bewildered and astonished, his hair standing on end, Arjuna began to pray with folded hands, offering obeisances to the Supreme Lord." Dr. Patel: He was frightened, seeing that. Shall I read further, arjuna uvāca? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, why he became frightened? Dr. Patel: On seeing such a huge, I mean, unbelievable things perhaps by ordinary human being. In a one place of Kṛṣṇa's. (indistinct) Right? Indian man (2): He realized his insignificance because of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: Prabhupāda: Now, he is beginning from the three deities of creation: Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Arjuna said: My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see assembled together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahmā sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Śiva and many sages and divine serpents." Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir? Prabhupāda: So you are understanding all this? If you have got any question, you can ask. All right, go on. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse Bg. 11.16, in Sanskrit) Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "aneka-many..." (pause) Prabhupāda: "Because one, there is no aneka," that is nonsense. In one, aneka, that is philosophy. Dr. Patel: Eko asmin bhaviṣyāmi abhutyam. (?) Prabhupāda: Aneka is one. But "Because there is aneka," therefore, "because there is one, therefore no consideration of the aneka." That is not intelligent. Aneka in one. That is real philosophy. *Girirāja: "Bāhū*-arms..." Prabhupāda: Aneka, that is in one. Therefore this aneka is not different from the one. But this aneka does not mean that one. Read. Girirāja: (continues synonyms) "Translation: O Lord of the universe..." Prabhupāda: Still, although he saw aneka in Kṛṣṇa, still, he is seeing Kṛṣṇa there. That is real vision. *Girirāja: "O Lord of the universe, I see in Your universal body many, many forms*-bellies, mouths, eyes-expanded without limit. There is no end, there is no beginning, and there is no middle to all this." *Prabhupāda: A crude example can be given. Just like a man may be director of this company and trust of that company and so many when he is working. But his wife is feeling that he is her husband. That's all. She does not see anything, although he is working in aneka*-rūpam. This is the, a crude example. He has his eyes to see, "Here is my beloved husband." That's all. Just like Yasodamayi. Yasodamayi saw that all the universes within the mouth... She asked, ordered Kṛṣṇa, "I want to see whether you have eaten dirt. Open your mouth." So Kṛṣṇa opened the mouth and not only dirt, but all the universes... So she saw, but she did not believe that Kṛṣṇa can have all these universes. So she said, "All right, that's all right. Don't do it again." She did not take care of the universes. Although Kṛṣṇa is showed him all the universes within the mouth, she was concerned with Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Dr. Patel: (next verse, Bg. 11.17 Sanskrit) Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "dīpta-anala-..." Prabhupāda: The glowings are there; we cannot see even the sun. All the glowings are there. It is difficult. Yes. Go on. Girirāja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: Your form, adorned with various crowns, clubs and discs, is difficult to see because of it glaring effulgence, which is fiery and immeasurable like the sun." Dr. Patel: Do you want to comment or shall I...? Prabhupāda: No, it is all right. Dr. Patel: (next verse in Sanskrit, 11.18) Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: You are the supreme primal objective; You are the best in all the universes; You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest; You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead." *Prabhupāda: This is to be understood. The same thing, the supremacy of Kṛṣṇa, is being repeatedly stressed in so many ways, and still, by reading Bhagavad*-gītā, they do not accept the supremacy of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse in Sanskrit, 11.19) Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "netram-eyes..." *Prabhupāda: Now, one question may be raised, that after reading all the details of Bhagavad*-gītā, if somebody said, "There was no Kṛṣṇa," what kind of inter... Dr. Patel: He is a fool. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) So see. And these fools and rascals are going on as big men. You see? What kind of Bhagavad*-gītā he has read, that he says that "There was no Kṛṣṇa, there was no Battlefield of Kurukṣetra"? And that is our challenge, "Why do you say like that?" Mr. Sar: Why do they say like that? Indian man (2): They are ignorant people. Dr. Patel: They are śūṣka Vedāntists. Prabhupāda: No. They are rascals, simply rascals, not śūṣka Vedāntists. Vedāntist is... His father is also not Vedāntist. They do not know what is Vedānta. Simply rascals. That is our propaganda, that why you accept these rascals as leader? Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa is described in the *Upaniṣads*. Then how can they say there is no Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, they say, "There was no Kṛṣṇa." That is the most regrettable incidence, that these people, they do not know what is Bhagavad*-gītā, and still, they pose themselves as a knower of Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. That should be protested now. That is our mission. No, you cannot say like that. Dr. Patel: We are going to read up to the mandir. Because we have not... Prabhupāda: [break] ...study one line, that is sufficient. It does not mean to go like a storm and do not understand. Dr. Patel: We don't go like a storm. We go very slowly. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Let us go slow but sure. Girirāja: (finishes synonyms for 11.19) "Translation: You are the origin without beginning, middle or end. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are among Your great unlimited eyes. By Your own radiance, You are heating this entire universe." *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that prabhāsmi śaśi*-sūryayoḥ. Now that being exhibited by Kṛṣṇa. Not only Kṛṣṇa said, but He exhibited. Dr. Patel: And now for the real thing. Shall I read, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: (reads verse 11.20 in Sanskrit) Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Although You are one, You are spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great one, as I behold this terrible form, I see that all the planetary systems are perplexed." *Prabhupāda: For devotee, that is a terrible form. That is not very pleasing. Therefore they do not worship the virāṭ form. They worship Kṛṣṇa's original, dvi*-bhuja. Dvi-bhuja murlīdhāra śyāmasundara. That is the original form. Dr. Patel: That is what we say. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Dvi*-bhuja murlidhara śyāmasundara. Venuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁsam asitāmbudha-sundarāṅgam [Bs. 5.30]. Arcā-vigraha. Venuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁ... Barha, this peacock feather. They are described in the Vedic literature, but these rascals say, "That it is imagination. They have imagined." The Māyāvādīs say, "They have imagined a form of God as Kṛṣṇa, with peacock feather, with murlī." But that's not the fact. The fact is there in the Vedic literature. So Kṛṣṇa has got this universal form, but the devotees are not interested with this universal form. But they know that Kṛṣṇa has universal form. Go on. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse 11.21 in Sanskrit) Girirāja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: All the demigods are surrendering and entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are singing the Vedic hymns." *Prabhupāda: When the demigods... They have to offer prayers to the Lord, instead of... How they can be worshiped on the equal level of God? How can they be worshiped on the...? That is forbidden. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ deva. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (some people come) Yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ brahma*-rudrādi-daivataiḥ, samatvena vikṣeta sa pāṣāṇḍī bhaved dhruvam [Cc. Madhya 18.116]. Nārāyaṇam devam, the Supreme Personality of God Nārāyaṇa, if one makes Him on the equal position with such big, big demigods like Brahmā, Rudra, so immediately he becomes a pāṣāṇḍī. And now they are comparing with the daridra. Just see. Dr. Patel: Now again you are going that way. Shall I read on? Prabhupāda: No, no, this is a fact, you must understand. You do not know. You must know it. You must know it. Nārāyaṇa cannot be compared with Brahmā, Rudra, and these rascals have compared Him with daridra. Just see, how much rascal they are. Indian man (3): Illustration. Prabhupāda: Yes. Here all the... Why you are anxious to read? You be anxious to understand first of all. Dr. Patel: I have understood. *Prabhupāda: You do not understand. That is... You fight with me. Therefore I am reading this. Yes. We are speaking on Bhagavad*-gītā, not your imaginary words. That is our point. How these rascals compare with, ordinary, poor man with Nārāyaṇa? Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Prabhupāda: That's right. Yes. Dr. Patel: I say so, but immediately I understood, but we want to understand more and more. You say it is not possible to understand... Prabhupāda: No, if you immediately understand, then immediately you forget also. Dr. Patel: No, I don't forget. Prabhupāda: No, no, immediately understanding means immediately forget. (laughter) Dr. Patel: It is not possible to forget. I understand immediately and never forget. For all it may not be. Shall I read further, sir? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse, 22 in Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: Now he is describing who are offering prayers. All the big, big demigods, surāsaṅgha, they are respectfully offering. And they cannot be equal. The Māyāvādī says, "All the demigods, you chant, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or Kālī Kṛṣṇa or Durgā Kṛṣṇa, this is all the same." *Dr. Patel: Or daridra*-nārāyaṇa. *Prabhupāda: Or daridra*-nārāyaṇa, that is the same. Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "viṣve-the Visvadevas..." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...clearly described, what is God, what is the distinction between God and other demigods, living entity. Everything is clearly explained. So you can talk all nonsense without Bhagavad*-gītā. That is another chapter. But if you claim that "We read Bhagavad-gītā," you cannot say like that. That is our propaganda. If you actually have read Bhagavad-gītā, then you cannot say all this nonsense. [break] Dr. Patel: ...common features of Kṛṣṇa are common to all paramparās. It can't be different from one another. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Paramparā. He says, "As soon as this paramparā was lost, the Bhagavad*-gītā was lost." Naṣṭaḥ, it is said, naṣṭaḥ. "Therefore I am taking you again as paramparā." You see? If you do not accept... Dr. Patel: What you say... I mean... Listen. This is one of the way of seeing things. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you see... open, open (indistinct) Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is so multifarious and so multiple energies He has got that only ekasmin... Prabhupāda: No, no, here it is said, in the Fourth... This is Fourth Chapter? *Dr. Patel: No, this is Twelfth Chapter. I am reading the common features of all the sādhus. Adveṣṭā sarva*-bhūtānāṁ maitraḥ karuṇa eva ca, nirmamo nirahaṅkāraḥ, nirahaṅkāraḥ [Bg. 12.13]. We must have (Sanskrit) Prabhupāda: No, that is ahaṅkāra, that "I have got my own interpretation." That is ahaṅkāra. Dr. Patel: But you say your own interpretation also. That is also ahaṅkāra, sir. Prabhupāda: No, no. I am taking the interpretation of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: He must be also taking in that way. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: With all my due respect, sir, well, we must have some sort of forbearance for others' views. Prabhupāda: No, no. Because if we have got to preach, we cannot make any compromise. Dr. Patel: You feel that way, we have no objection. But we should also respect somebody else's views. Prabhupāda: No, we have got all respect, but not unnecessary respect. Dr. Patel: But even unnecessary respect sometimes you unnecessarily go beyond, according to the... Prabhupāda: No, no, we have respect. But a thief should be called a thief. That is truth. Dr. Patel: You are the magistrate and you are the judge and you are the... *Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not judge. I am talking on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: [Bg. 7.15] "One who is a narādhamāḥ, he does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So this is judgement. Ah! As soon as we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, we accept, narādhamāḥ. That's all. Whatever he may be. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa is not only one name. There are... All the names of God are... Prabhupāda: No, no, that is Māyāvāda. Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Then we disbelieve that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa has got name... Dr. Patel: All the names of God are Kṛṣṇa's names. That is what we are taught from our birth. Prabhupāda: Then why you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? You can chant any name. Dr. Patel: No, but we want to chant Kṛṣṇa's name. That's all. That is the purest. Prabhupāda: Ah, that is contradictory. You said... Sometimes you say that Kṛṣṇa has got many names... Dr. Patel: If I say, "Christ, Christ, Christ," it is, also goes to Kṛṣṇa. Indian man (4): But do you think all the medicines are equal? Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, there are some potent medicines, all are equal. And there is Kṛṣṇa and there is Christ and there is Bhagavān and there is Viṣṇu and there is Rāma. The same medicine with multiple names. Okay? Indian man (4): Well, then it is the same disease. Dr. Patel: All the disease, one medicine. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you prescribe a particular... Dr. Patel: Because this is supernatural. This is not ordinary medicine. This is not the medicine of earthly things. This is the medicine of super things. That is why one name, all. What do you want to say in this interpretation? Because we are not dealing with earth here. We are dealing with spiritual things. And... [break] Prabhupāda: ...sane body cannot prescribe one medicine for everyone. Dr. Patel: But that is in this earth. In this māyā. But beyond māyā, you can prescribe one medicine for all. That is Kṛṣṇa's medicine. [break] Prabhupāda: ...says, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ, these words. [break] Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: Right, but we are prapadyante. *Prabhupāda: We are talking only... We are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. That's all. That is our business. It may be palatable or not palatable. It doesn't matter. We have to place as it is. That criterion is there, that... [break] Dr. Patel: ...whether he had come from the lowest of the low. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...realization is this, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he must be one of these: duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ narādhamāḥ māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. Dr. Patel: How can you say people are...? *Prabhupāda: Vedas, Kṛṣṇa says. We are fool, rascal. We simply repeat Kṛṣṇa's words. That's all. [break] ...Bhagavad*-gītā, then you have to accept like that. *Dr. Patel: Bhagavad*-gītā is not the secondary I mean other, literatures. [break] Why not? Have I no right to read? Prabhupāda: You can have right to misinterpret. That's all right. But we are not going to do that. No. Dr. Patel: It all depends upon my own intelligence. Prabhupāda: That's all right. [break] Dr. Patel: ...dadāmi yogo 'ham. He gives me that yoga and I read that way. How can you say that? I have got no power excepting the power given by God. Prabhupāda: When you take intelligence from Kṛṣṇa... Dr. Patel: That is what He gives me and I take it. Prabhupāda: And He says that "If you don't surrender Me, then you are mūḍhā, narādhama." He says that. He says that. Dr. Patel: No, that is not... I mean, you are too harsh. *Prabhupāda: Why harsh? I am quoting Bhagavad*-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante... [Bg. 7.15]. *Dr. Patel: Bhagavad*-gītā, no... Final śāstras are the Vedas. *Prabhupāda: Then don't accept Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Patel: We are accepting because it is the sarva ga... *Prabhupāda: Then don't accept the words. You accept Bhagavad*-gītā... Dr. Patel: How can you say, "Don't accept..." Prabhupāda: No, no, here it is clearly said that "Anyone who is not surrendered to Me, he is a miscreant, rascal, mūḍhā, everything." That is the test. Dr. Patel: What do you mean by surrendering? Surrendering to His will. "Are you surrendered to My will and fight? And, my boy, I have already killed them." That is what we read in the Eleventh Chapter. In that surrender to His will, God's will. That is surrender. (Hindi) [break] *Prabhupāda: That is your interpret... Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Dr. Patel: Mām means... Prabhupāda: Oh mām means? Again mām means? *Dr. Patel: ...mām means will, Kṛṣṇa, who is representing the (indistinct) ātmā. He is outer Kṛṣṇa. Real Kṛṣṇa is the guru, not even the mūrti, the arca*-pūjā. Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation. Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation. That is all intelligence of the world. And if you say no, well, I am prepared to own it. It's not right, sir, to be harsh on intelligence, sir. Prabhupāda: What is intelligence? Mūḍhā? Dr. Patel: Intelligence is given by God and... Prabhupāda: If one is a mūḍhā, where is intelligence? Why shall I give him the credit of intelligence? He is a mūḍhā. One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhā. Number one. There is no intelligence. One who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he has no intelligence. (end) Morning Walk -- April 6, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...by my sister. And you have seen in the Mullick Ṭhākura*-bhati(?) Ratha-yatra? Guest (Indian man): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So after my festival of Ratha*-yatra the other boys in the Mullicks, they began. My ratha was, I think, this much high, very nicely made. *Acyutānanda: When we had Ratha*-yatra in Calcutta we stopped in front of your house and they had that ratha decorated in the doorway. And we turned the ratha towards the house, and they came out and did ārāti, the Mullick family, Śyāmasundara. *Prabhupāda: So there was good festival, saṅkīrtana, and procession. We all little children enjoyed. And eight days, my mother was cooking different foodstuff for Jagannātha. Then return ratha*-yatra. Ratha-yatra means... Yaśomatīnandana: Fifteen days festival. *Prabhupāda: No, eight days. From dvitīya to daśamī. Ratha*-yatra... Girirāja: Guest: Yes, comment. [break] Prabhupāda: ...upagīyamānāt. Girirāja: "In these western countries when someone sees the cover of a book like Kṛṣṇa, he immediately asks, 'Who is Kṛṣṇa? Who is the girl with Kṛṣṇa?' " [break] *Prabhupāda: ...upagīyamānāt. Uttama-śloka*-guṇānuvādā. Uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādāt. Uttama-śloka is Kṛṣṇa, who is worshiped by selected verses. So uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādā is executed by nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ. Nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ. Nivṛtti means ceasing; *tṛṣṇa means material desires. Nivṛtti*-tarṣair upagīyamānād. So this uttamaśloka-guṇanuvada, praising the Supreme, uttamaśloka, is done by the nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ. Nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ means one who has ceased material desires. He can chant. He can glorify. But it is not for ordinary mundane people. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣādhi chrotra-mano 'bhirāmāt [SB 10.1.4]. And this chanting is bhavauṣādhi. There is some... [break] ...of holy name or glorifying the Lord is the medicine for this material disease. Material disease means repetition of birth and death. To stop this repetition of birth and death, this is the only remedy. And this is used by liberated persons. So such a nice thing, who can refrain from it? Vinā paśughnāt: [SB 10.1.4] unless one is animal killer, one cannot cease from this business. Therefore animal killing is so sinful. Girirāja: "In these Western countries when someone sees the cover of a book like Kṛṣṇa, he immediately asks, 'Who is Kṛṣṇa? Who is the girl with Kṛṣṇa?' and so on." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa is all*-attractive or God is all-attractive. This definition given by Parāśara Muni is a supreme perfect definition. Unless God is attractive, how He can be God? This argument, what do you think? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa showed this attractiveness in full. [break] ...any question you can ask. [break] Bhāgavata: ...expansion or incarnation has the six opulences in full except for Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa is cent percent. Next to Kṛṣṇa is Nārāyaṇa. Next to Nārāyaṇa is Lord Śiva. Acyutānanda: Lord Caitanya did not manifest so much opulence as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, Lord Caitanya appeared as a devotee. How He can show the opulence of Kṛṣṇa? Sometimes He showed. But He was playing the part, bhaktākhyaṁ bhaktāvatāraṁ namāmi bhakta-śaktikam. Bhāgavata: Some of the different incarnations, though, they manifest one of the different opulences or two, like that, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. All the opulences, not in full. Acyutānanda: So what opulence does Kṛṣṇa have that Nārāyaṇa doesn't have? Those four but, what of the six. Prabhupāda: The attraction by playing flute, and the rāsa dance. In this way there are four principles. That is mentioned in the Caitanya caritamrta. Acyutānanda: But otherwise Nārāyaṇa has all the six opulences. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Super*-excellent opulence in Kṛṣṇa, by His veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣam [Bs. 5.30]. That attraction is only in Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...scientist, we say the same thing. *Bhāgavata: Yes. He has spent his whole life, twenty*-five years, studying so hard. Prabhupāda: When he said this? Bhāgavata: In 1972. His name is Professor Leakey. He is from, I think, America. And he has found in Kenya one skull two million years old. [break] Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. When our book was published? Girirāja: This was in about seventy... Bhāgavata: 1970 it came out. Prabhupāda: [break] ...you discover. Girirāja: March 31st, 1970. Prabhupāda: So? [break] ...civilization. Bhāgavata: You are giving all the information, cent percent. Prabhupāda: [break] ...win's theory is that from that lower animals to go to the higher animals, but in the creation we find Brahmā is the first creation. So he is the topmost intelligent man. Bhāgavata: Is there anything in the Vedic literature which supports Darwin's theory? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not Darwin's theory. Darwin's theory is no explanation that whose evolution? Evolution is of the soul. The soul is changing in different bodies, one body better than the other. That kind of evolution. Acyutānanda: Darwin has no individual evolution, but the evolution of a species, like, they say, there were horses. And then when they had eaten up all the food on the ground, so they started to get the food on the trees. So their necks became longer. And those with longer necks lived, and the others died. So then there were the giraffes. So they moved like that. "Survival of the fittest." That's his theory. Then the more intelligent animals will live more than the less intelligent. So they will die out and then they will be up to the human. But that doesn't explain why there are still lower species of life, that why are there still animals? *Girirāja: (reads) "...we are given the histories of Kṛṣṇa's appearances and disappearances millions and billions of years ago. In the Fourth Chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna that both he and Arjuna had many births before, and that He, Kṛṣṇa, could remember all of them and that Arjuna could not. This illustrates the difference between the knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and that of Arjuna. Arjuna might have been a very great warrior, a well-cultured member of the Kuru dynasty..." [break] *Acyutānanda: In the last part of Kṛṣṇa Book, Mahā*-Viṣṇu says that Arjuna is of the capacity of Nara-nārāyaṇa. So they are avatāras also. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Acyutānanda: But as Arjuna he acts as an ordinary jīva? *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are different types of śaktyāveṣa avatāra. So when an ordinary jīva is specially empowered, he is called śaktya aveṣa avatāra, śatktyaveṣa avatāra, vibhūti. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam. He is living entity, but especially empowered. Just like for certain business I give sometimes somebody power of attorney, that "He will do this. He will sign for me." Like that. He is also one of the disciples, but for particular purpose, he is given the power of attorney. In this way when a living entity is empowered specifically to do something, that is called śaktyāveṣa avatāra. Aveṣa avatāra. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra. That is explained in the... These are explained in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. [break] ...śaktya. Mama tejo-'ṁśa-sambhavam. So śaktyāveṣa avatāra is not viṣṇu-tattva. He is jīva-tattva. So the Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha, they come within the jīva-tattva especial power. Bhāgavata: They are śaktyāveṣa avatāras. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Acyutānanda: So Nara*-nārāyaṇa Ṛṣi is which? *Prabhupāda: Nara*-nārāyaṇa Ṛṣi was a ṣaktyāveṣa avatāra. Acyutānanda: So Arjuna has no constitutional connection with them, but at that time he was equal, by deputed potency. But they are individuals. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Arjuna is also... Yes, equal to Nara*-nārāyaṇa. [break] ...as Nara-nārāyaṇa. Somewhere, I think. Girirāja: (reads) "Kṛṣṇa's knowledge is so perfect that He remembers all the incidences of His appearances some millions and billions of years in the past. But Arjuna's memory and knowledge are limited by time and space, for he is an ordinary human being." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa did not become God by the so*-called meditation or mystic power. He has already all this yogeśvara. All mystic powers are already there. [break] ...that man? *Girirāja: Does he also appear through Mahā*-Viṣṇu? When Kṛṣṇa appears, it says that... Prabhupāda: Yes. He appeared through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Girirāja: Oh. Bhāgavata: But He's still the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: He appeared... Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He appeared through Yaśodā, I mean Śacīmata. That does not mean that He has appeared through... The sun rises from the eastern side. It does not mean the eastern side is producing sun. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: When Kṛṣṇa appeared He could assume any other incarnation's form, Lord Rāmacandra, Lord Varāha. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: But Lord Rāmacandra could not assume Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No. Lord Rāmacandra also can do. They are all full powerful. Bhāgavata: Oh, Rāmacandra is full opulence. Prabhupāda: Oh yes, but Rāmacandra's full opulence was not exhibited. There was no necessity. But it is not that He could not. Yes. Girirāja: So at the end of the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, when Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna visit Lord Viṣṇu and Viṣṇu calls them incarnations of Himself, that is because Kṛṣṇa appeared through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu? *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is acintya*-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. [break] ...covering of the universe. There are seven coverings. Each covering is ten times bigger than the one. Again, the seven elements... Girirāja: So at night when we look up, everything that we see is within this universe. Prabhupāda: Yes, within this universe, yes. And there are innumerable universes. *Girirāja: "And beyond that non*-manifested matter there is the spiritual kingdom. That kingdom is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as supreme and eternal. It is never annihilated. This material nature is subjected..." [break] *Acyutānanda: ...living entities in not non*-manifested matter? Are there any living entities in non-mani... *Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is non*-manifested. There is no living entities. It is simply covering. Acyutānanda: So the living entities only appear within the universe, not outside the universes. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in the spiritual world there are living entities. Acyutānanda: But in the... Prabhupāda: Yes, in the covering, in the... Acyutānanda: Is there some part of Lord Śiva that is there in between? Prabhupāda: Not in between. That is also after that. Sadā-ṣiva. Just on the border, on the border. Bhāgavata: On the border. Before you reach earth, the element of earth. Prabhupāda: Yes. On the border between spiritual world and material world. *Bhāgavata: On the Virajā River? That is where Kailāsa*-dhāma is. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yaśomatīnandana: Are there different Kailāsa*-dhāmas like is there any Kailāsa-dhāma in a particular universe also? *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. Just like there is Vṛndāvana, similarly, there is Kailāsa*-dhāma. [break] Acyutānanda: There are many other planets on the earth level? Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: But Kṛṣṇa only comes to this planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: So this is very special planet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vṛndāvana. *Acyutānanda: And every time Lord Kṛṣṇa appears, original Kṛṣṇa appears, does Lord Caitanya appear on the following Kali*-yuga? Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: Every time. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: 28th day of Brahmā. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...Yes. 28th or 27th. 27th Dvāpara*-yuga. [break] Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. This is kṣatriya's business: to establish religious principles and to kill the demons. This is kṣatriya's business. And Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He appeared as a brāhmaṇa. So He did not kill anybody. Although He was just about to kill Jagāi and Mādhāi, but Nityānanda Prabhu restrained that "In this incarnation You have promised not to kill." [break] You know I wrote him that letter. Bhāgavata: Gandhi. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That "You now preach Bhagavad*-gītā," but he would not do that. Go on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Girirāja: "...Kṛṣṇa will be appealing to the liberated souls and to persons who are trying to be liberated, as well as to the gross conditioned materialists. According to the statement of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, who heard about Kṛṣṇa from Śukadeva Gosvāmī, kṛṣṇa*-kathā is equally applicable to every human being in whatever condition of life he is in. Everyone will appreciate it to the highest magnitude..." (end) Morning Walk -- April 7, 1974, Bombay Girirāja: "...want to die. It does not matter whether one is a young man or an old man. So before death takes places we must be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." [break] Yaśomatīnandana: They will think it is fairy tale. Prabhupāda: Fairy tale, why? Yaśomatīnandana: Because they don't believe anything that they cannot see with their gross senses. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. You cannot see in the sky so many things. Now this plane is going on. It may be unseen for some time. So that is the only reason? Because they cannot see? They cannot see milk? They have seen milk or not? Yaśomatīnandana: Their experience of sea is that it has salt water. Prabhupāda: No, this is water. As water is also liquid, milk is also liquid. So if there is ocean of water, why not ocean of milk? Yaśomatīnandana: There can be, but,... Prabhupāda: There can be, yes. So how they can say that there cannot be? Yadubara: They would say that "The milk comes from the cow. So how could it be an ocean?" Prabhupāda: Water comes from man. If you pass urine, there is water. What is the difference? The water also comes from... Yaśomatīnandana: It is just that it is beyond their experience. Prabhupāda: That experience should be gathered from authority. Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. I also tell them sometimes that "Did you see your grandfather?" They say "Well, no." "But you still accept that he was there." They say, "Yes, because my father tells me, somebody else says." Similarly, I said that "Even though you didn't see your grandfather, you accept that there is a grandfather." [break] Prabhupāda: ...contradiction of the law of gravitation. According to our śāstra the planets are held on the hood of Ananta. He is carrying. But they say they are staying on account of law of gravitation. *Yaśomatīnandana: That is Kṛṣṇa's supreme energy as you explain, tejo*-vāri-mṛdāṁ yathā vinimaya, that is water, He creates, He can do anything. The scientists may make any laws. Prabhupāda: No. But they cannot use that law. They cannot float any other thing in the air by this law. Still they say, "There is law of gravitation." Girirāja: "They were also informed of the external..." [break] Prabhupāda: He have to accept so much dowry, how many thousands horses? Girirāja: Fifteen thousand. Prabhupāda: So who will take dowry like this? (laughing) And how many? Four hundred elephants. Who can maintain four hundred elephants? Nowadays horses and elephants are not selling because nobody can maintain. Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Only the zoos. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...animal*-eaters, later on, they will not find animals to eat. They will eat themselves. Because animals are not being maintained, they may be, according to Darwin's theory, extinct. Satsvarūpa: In the US and everywhere they maintain them just for slaughter. So will that dwindle out? Prabhupāda: Yes, slaughtering, slaughtering. When there will be no more, where this question of slaughtering? Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. When there are no more animals, where will reproduce? Prabhupāda: They maintain elephant also for slaughtering? Satsvarūpa: No. Yaśomatīnandana: When I was in America I heard last year there was a beef shortage. There was a meat shortage. Prabhupāda: Yes. Meat shortage, yes. Yaśomatīnandana: They import a lot of beef from Australia. Prabhupāda: Hm. Go on reading. Indian man: Here also scarcity will start. Slaughtering means... [break] *Prabhupāda: This example is given. Suppose we are walking. This step, when I assure that "This is all right, it is not, it will not go down," then I take up this. Then again this. This example is given. Similarly, change of body like that. As soon as it is settled up what kind of body he is going to accept or which is being offered to him, daiva*-netreṇa, by higher authority, then this man leaves this body and again enters in the womb of the body which he is destined to get. This is the process of death. Yadubara: Is that immediate, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Immediate. Just like immediate I am walking. When it is fixed up, then I take up. Then when it is fixed up, then I take up, like this. Immediately. Yaśomatīnandana: What about hell? How does the jīva soul go to hell? Prabhupāda: Yes. They go. Those who are going to hell, that is fixed up very quickly. It doesn't take much time. Hell means he is getting the next body, hellish body. That's all. Suppose he is going to get the hellish body to become the worm of stool, so in that way he enters the worm, mother worm, to get the body and enjoy the hell. That's all. Satsvarūpa: Don't they sometimes have to go to Yamarāja first for practice? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is daiva*-netreṇa. These things are finished very quickly. And if it takes little time, then this man who is dying, he remains in coma and does not die. Because the judgement is going on, the decision waiting, coma. You have seen sometimes a man is in coma for seven days, eight days? Yes. That means his judgement is going on, that... Such kind of death means very sinful death. Not yet settled up, very complicated case. Therefore it takes time. Yadubara: What about persons who die in their sleep? Is that a sinful death? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dream or awakened, everything is dream, gross dream and subtle dream. That's all. This is also dream. What do you mean by dream? Dream means existent for a little period. That's all. So night dream is for two hours and this dream is for twenty*-four hours. Yaśomatīnandana: So in other words when it says that one goes to hell, any lower species is also like hell. If one is going to assume a dog's body, then does he go to hell before he assumes a dog's body? Prabhupāda: There is statement like that, that one is put into the hellish condition for practicing little, and then he is put into the womb of such mother. Yaśomatīnandana: Is that a long duration of practice or just..., very short? Prabhupāda: No, very short. Short mean their short. It may take little more time. Girirāja: Now they have machines that when the person is in coma, the machines artificially keep the heart beating and the other processes... Prabhupāda: Then heart beating will go on, either you apply machine or no machine. Heart beating. But when the heart stops, no machine can revive it. So what is the use of machine? But by nature's way when the heart beating will stop, no machine can help. That is not possible. Girirāja: So the doctors face a dilemma, that they keep the heart going by the machine, but they don't know whether the patient is actually living or dead. So they are afraid to stop the machine. They don't know how to decide when to stop the machine. Prabhupāda: But when they stop it...? Girirāja: Then the patient is dead. (laughter) Yaśomatīnandana: That is the modern science, so imperfect. They don't even know whether a person is live or dead. Prabhupāda: What do they know? They know something, but everyone knows. Even the birds and beasts, they also know something. Girirāja: "In this way, one after another the body changes and the soul transmigrates. See how the plant worms change from one twig to another so carefully. Similarly the living entity changes his body as soon as the higher authorities decide on his next body." [break] Prabhupāda: ...the modern civlization is that they have no knowledge about the change of body. Almost 99 percent people, they do not know. *Yaśomatīnandana: Even the so*-called religions, the religions even don't teach. Prabhupāda: They do not know. Girirāja: "This body is exactly like one of the bodies which we always see in dreams. During our dream of sleep we create so many bodies according to mental creation." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the psychologically whatever mental condition we prepare throughout this life, that means you are preparing next life, and in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam tyajanty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. The situation of the mind at the time of death will carry you to the similar body. Just like one who likes to eat some special foodstuff, so... Suppose the meat-eaters... So the mentality is "How to eat meat, how to eat meat." So they are given next life the canine teeth to give facility for eating meat. Canine teeth means dogs, cats, tigers, like that. Girirāja: "Unless we have a particular type of body, we cannot enjoy or suffer according to our mental proclivities inherited from the previous life." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...another example. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. It is said that this living entity is untouched by this material body. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. So the example is given that the moon reflected on water appears to be moving, but moon is separate from that movement. (Hindi) Go on. (Hindi) [break] ...good example. Unnecessarily he thinks that "I belong to this country, I belong to this society." That means he creates another body. And if he knows perfectly well that "I do not belong to any of these bodies," that is brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. That teaching required, that every being is unattached to this body. Therefore yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape... Anyone who is maintaining himself under bodily concept of life, he is no better than the animals. [break] The demonic person does not accept any good lesson. Mūrkhāyopadeṣo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. Because he is foolish, if you give him good advice, he will be angry. Still, we have to do that. Girirāja: But it is better to find some innocent persons, for preaching. *Prabhupāda: Yes, better field, those who are innocent. That is the duty of the preacher, four things: īśvare tad*-adhīneṣu baliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. The preacher should see four things. First of all īśvara, the Supreme Person, God. So that vision must be there. He knows what is īśvara or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then tad-adhīneṣu, those who have taken shelter of that īśvara. That means devotees. Tad-adhīneṣu. And then baliśeṣu. Baliśeṣu means those who are innocent, have no sufficient knowledge, innocent. And dviṣatsu. And there is always a class of men who are envious of God, dviṣat. Dviṣat means envious. So preacher has to see these four classes of men or three classes. One, īśvara, and the other three classes. So he has to behave like that. To behave with īśvara-prema, how to love. That is his business. How to increase love for the Supreme. Prema. Maitrī, how to make friendship with the devotee. And to the innocent-kṛpā, how to become merciful. And to the envious-upekṣa, negligence, not to talk with them. Four behavior. Īśvare tad-a... This is madhyama adhikārī. And the position of the preacher is madhyama adhihkārī. Therefore they have to point out, "Here is a jealous man, envious man." But people do not want it. They say, "Why you are pointing out? Why you are pointing out?" But this is business of the preacher. Otherwise how he will preach? Girirāja: They want to be artificially the uttama adhikārī, to see everyone as nice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everyone as nice, except himself. Uttama adhikārī vision, that everyone is nice. Then the preacher is also nice. Why you find out fault with the preacher? So imitation uttama adhikārī will not help. Girirāja: [break] "...those who are demoniac or atheistic by nature can hardly assimilate any good instruction, however authorized it may be. That is the difference between a demigod and a demon." [break] *Prabhupāda: Therefore, at the present moment, bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānām tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. Demons, they are too much attached to material enjoyment, bhoga and aiśvarya. So they cannot take to it. Therefore our general principle is to perform saṅkīrtana, not to talk philosophy. When one is interested, then he can talk philosophy. Otherwise this talk should be amongst inner circles, with the students and the teacher, those who are submissive. Otherwise it should be avoided. It will create misunderstanding. Satsvarūpa: What about programs at schools and colleges? Prabhupāda: Because they are innocent. The children, they are innocent. So if possible, give them some enlightenment, kṛpā, to become merciful upon them. So far children are concerned, they hear, they try to learn. Just like in Dallas, whatever we say, they accept. They do not protest. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then? Girirāja: "Vasudeva thought of his wife as follows: 'For the present let me save the life of Devakī and later on, if there are children, I shall see how to save them.' He further thought..." Prabhupāda: This is the consideration. By policy if he could save his wife, that first. He was following like that... Girirāja: " 'If in the future I get a child who can kill Kaṁsa, just as Kaṁsa is thinking, then both Devakī and the child will be saved, because the law of providence is inconceivable. But now someway or other let me save the life of Devakī.' " [break] Prabhupāda: ...jumps. In the village also there is experience, when there is fire, it jumps over another house, leaving one house in the middle. *Girirāja: "Similarly, a living entity may be very careful and fearful in the matter of executing his duties, but it is still very difficult for him to know what type of body he is going to get in the next life. Mahārāja Bharata was very faithfully executing the duties of self*-realization, but by chance he contacted temporary affection for a deer, and he had to accept his next life in the body of a deer." [break] Prabhupāda: Yes. Not liberal. He was truthful. He used to bring all the sons as soon as born to Kaṁsa, and he was killing. Girirāja: "Kaṁsa knew the value of Vasudeva's word of honor and he was convinced by his arguments. For the time being he desisted from the heinous killing of his sister. Thus Vasudeva was pleased and praised the decision of Kaṁsa. In this way he returned to his home. After due course of time Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to eight male children as well as..." [break] *Prabhupāda: Demons are known as sura*-dviṣām, sura-dviṣām, those who are envious of the demigods, sura-dvisa. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. This word is used in the Bhāgavata: "just to cheat the demons," sammohāya sura-dviṣām. [break] That is the instruction of Nārada. You see? Then? Girirāja: "Within the prison, shackled in iron chains, Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to a male child year after year. Kaṁsa, thinking each of the babies to be the incarnation of Viṣṇu, killed them one after another." *Prabhupāda: Yes. He killed his brother. He was merciful upon the father only, kept him in the prison. Otherwise he killed the whole family*-brother, brother's son and everyone. [break] ...present kings, such incidences are very many in the history, killing everyone. There is another story that Pana, Pana? Yaśomatīnandana: Panavada.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. The child was to be killed and the... Yaśomatīnandana: Sarvan sevya.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. The maidservant, she changed her own son and kept the real royal family, defended him. Her child was killed. Yaśomatīnandana: Is it a true story? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? [break] ...and maternal uncle of Rāvaṇa. Yaśomatīnandana: Did Kaṁsa also achieve the grace? He was immediately transferred to the spiritual planets after he was killed? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Girirāja: ...being killed by Viṣṇu in his previous life he wasn't transferred? Prabhupāda: No, three times he had to take birth. Hiraṇyākṣa. Yaśomatīnandana: Is that Jaya and Vijaya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśomatīnandana: He was one of them? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...becomes envious of others, they take birth as dogs, snake, sarpa krūra khala krūra. So much subtle laws are working. They do not know. Yaśomatīnandana: Their limited intelligence. Prabhupāda: Limited intelligence, yes. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: ...nirmatsarāṇām. Prabhupāda: Ah, paramo nirmatsarāṇām satāṁ vāstavya vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Not for anyone. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. That means devotees. Devotees are nirmatsarā, not envious. Otherwise everyone is envious. [break] ...like a vehicle like this. In U.P. there is, called tanga. Yaśomatīnandana: Surat also, they have a lot of these. Prabhupāda: Tanga? Like this? Yaśomatīnandana: Not like this. (end) Morning Walk -- April 8, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: That is not possible. If... They are very, very great, powerful. Even apparently it seems that they were victims of beauty, that is not the fact. Satsvarūpa: If their son was Vyāsadeva, how could it be falldown? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Satsvarūpa: If the son was Vyāsadeva... Prabhupāda: He could beget a child like Vyāsadeva. [break] Girirāja: (reading from *Kṛṣṇa Book*) "Chapter Two. Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Kṛṣṇa in the Womb. King Kaṁsa not only occupied the kingdoms of the Yadu, Bhoja and Andhaka dynasties and the kingdom of Śūrasena..." [break] Prabhupāda: So the only expense... [break] ...intention of Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: Kṛṣṇa and yog... *Prabhupāda: [break] ...he says, this mantra, nāyam ātmā bala*-hīnā na labhya, he says, "Unless you very, become very stout and strong, there is no question of advancement in spiritual life. Therefore we should first of all eat meat and become very strong, and then we'll be spiritual realized." Yaśomatīnandana: Who says that? Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. [break] ...physical strength. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: ...Dvārakā. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa was transferred to Vṛndāvana. Not other (indistinct). Yaśomatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa had other brothers and sisters besides Balarāma and Subhadrā? Prabhupāda: We hear only two. [break] Devotee: Once I asked you that question in 1968, and you answered that Subhadrā sat on Kṛṣṇa's lap and smiled. That was her activity. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...maybe. Go on reading. [break] ...asac chāstram pracchanaṁ bauddham ucyate. The Māyāvāda is a very dangerous philosophy. It has made the whole world atheistic. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Māyāvādam asac*-chāstraṁ pracchanaṁ bauddham ucyate. They cannot understand that this is a dangerous philosophy. Yaśomatīnandana: He comes to the maṅgala ārati, but then he says that you don't have to worship Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśomatīnandana: He comes to maṅgala ārati, but he says to us that "You don't have to go to worship Kṛṣṇa in the temple." Prabhupāda: But we haven't got to learn from you. We have got better teacher than you. Yaśomatīnandana: I told him like that. *Prabhupāda: (chants japa) [break]. They'll talk of Kṛṣṇa, so many things but they're not devotees. Just like Kaṁsa. They may talk of Kṛṣṇa or think of Kṛṣṇa, but they don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Therefore they are demons. This is the test. They'll read Bhagavad*-gītā, but they'll not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. And that is the demonic. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because they are demons, therefore their so-called knowledge is useless. Apahṛta-jñāna. And apparently, they seem to be very learned scholar, but there is no knowledge. There is no knowledge. This is the demonic... Just like Rāvaṇa. He was very much advanced student in Vedic literature. But he was a demon. So simply by studying Vedas one does not become out of the jurisdiction of demons. Just like Jarasandha. He was also worshiping Viṣṇu. But he was a demon. He was a demon. His purpose was different. The yajñic brāhmaṇas, they also could not understand Kṛṣṇa. So this is the crucial test. If one does not understand Kṛṣṇa and become submissive to surrender, he remains a demon, however big scholar he may be. Indian (1): That is a division of śāstra, Patel and Parsees. Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't mention anyone. This is the general definition. Indian (1): They were saying that you are not speaking *Vedas*. *Prabhupāda: What do they know about Vedas? If they did know, then they should have stuck up in family life, in kūpa*-māṇḍukya and gṛhambhara, they have. They do not know what is Vedas. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. Vedas means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is knowledge of Veda. In the Bhagavad-gītā. *Yaśomatīnandana: That is the special quality of Kali*-yuga, that śūdra class people will take up the preaching of Vedas. Prabhupāda: Yes. And even followers of Śaṅkarācārya... Śaṅkarācārya does not give anyone any recognition unless he's a sannyāsī. That is the strict principle of Śaṅkara sampradāya. They are gṛhamedhis and they are thinking they are advanced in spiritual consciousness. Śaṅkarācārya does not give anyone any position unless he is in the renounced order of life. Girirāja: [break] ...sign of a great devotee is also to be always absorbed in... Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in their sampradāya it is a custom, as soon as he takes sannyāsa, he becomes Nārāyaṇa. "Namo nārāyaṇa." (laughs) That is an allurement. So this... Even one says that he is follower of Śaṅkarācārya, but there is no meaning in it. Unless one is a sannyāsī, he cannot say that he is follower of Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. *Indian (1): He died about thirty*-nine. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Thirty*-two. [break] ...never think what is the truth of life. Everyone. So somebody is taking sense gratification as truth of life. Somebody is taking mental speculation as truth of life. So many ways. But Bhāgavata says, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1]. We worship the Supreme Truth. Namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. The Supreme Truth. [break] ...say Brahmā, oṁ. Not Rāma, Kṛṣṇa. No, they'll never say. Sometimes they say, "Nārāyaṇa." That is, means thinking himself as Nārāyaṇa. (laughter) Daridra-nārāyaṇa, this nārāyaṇa, that nārāyaṇa, Swami Nārāyaṇa. Devotee: Then they want to serve Nārāyaṇa. Passerby: Jaya Rāmji. Jaya Rāmji. Jaya Rāmji. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Then they, then they take the philosophy, "I want to serve Nārāyaṇa." Prabhupāda: "No, I want to become Nārāyaṇa." Devotee: Yes, then they want to serve themselves. Prabhupāda: Not "serve Nārāyaṇa." "I want to become Nārāyaṇa." Devotee: If they are Nārāyaṇa, they serve themselves. So then they serve Nārāyaṇa. Indian (1): (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] There you see the Sarasvatī. Sarasvatī, she asks anybody, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" He will say, "No, I do not know..." "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." (laughter) She... That is preaching. And she'll collect some money and bring it to me. From the very childhood. [break] ...evāsam āgre. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. "And when everything will be finished, I'll stay." That is Kṛṣṇa. Janmādyasya yataḥ. The Vedānta-sūtra says that "He is the cause of creation, maintenance and annihilation." Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Maheśvara. [break] One who takes shelter of that birth, who is not interested in this distress and happiness, he also becomes of this Mad-bhāva. That verse? *Devotee: Mad*-bhāva yānti mām. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Vīta*-rāga-bhaya-śoka, mad-bhāva upagamya. Bahu... What is that? I forget now, this... Vīta... Yajña... Pūtā. Mad-bhāvam adhigacchati. Mad-bhāvam means by devotional service one attains the nature of Kṛṣṇa, no more interested with the material distress and material happiness. That does not affect them. That is the... That is also stated in another place of Bhagavad-gītā. Girirāja: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...prasannātmā. Brahma*-bhūta. That is called brahma-bhūta stage. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. This happiness and distress is the cause of śocati and kāṅkṣati. Kāṅkṣati means desiring to have something. This is distress. And lamenting for something, that is also distress. Actually, this is the material position. When we haven't got the things, we desire it. That is also distress. And when it is lost, that is also distress. But by illusion, they take it. When they get it, they think that it is happiness. This is māyā. Actually, to get the things, he has to undergo so much hard... A man is given credit... Suppose he was a poor man. He has now become multi-millionaire. He is given credit. But he does not see that he has simply passed through distress. But he... By illusion, he's thinking that he's happy. He's also thinking, and others also thinking, that "He has become happy." But actually it is distress. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (chants japa) [break] ...people become religious not for attaining the transcendental stage, but for material benefit, dharma, the artha. Artha means material opulence, that. They... These four things: dharma artha kāma mokṣa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90]. And why they want artha? To satisfy their senses. Dharma artha kāma... And when they're again baffled, they want mukti, to become one with the Supreme. These are the four different tastes of the material. All, all of them are baffling and illusory. The so-called religiosity with a view to get some material profit... That comes everywhere. Just (as) in Christianity, the religion means, "O God, give us our daily bread." Material profit, similarly, in anywhere, they go for material benefit. Therefore this kind of religion, it is also good, but it not first-class. The first-class religion is sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6], when one is awakened to the devotional service of the Lord, ahaitukī apratihatā, without any cause, and without being impeded. So ahaitukī apratihatā... That is, that stage is required. Not that "My sense gratification is not done here. Oh, let us give up this company." That is sense gratification. (laughs) Girirāja: (reading from *Kṛṣṇa Book*) "According to the different associations in the three modes of material nature, the living entities are tasting different kinds of religiosity..." [break] "...kinds of..." Prabhupāda: That religiosity also different kinds: rajasic, tamasic, and sattvic, according to one's nature. The sattvic, they worship Viṣṇu. The rajasic, they worship the demigods. And the tamasic, they worship bhūta, preta, piśāca... Devotee: Demons. *Prabhupāda: Demons. You'll see the Mohammedans, they worship the tomb. And Christian also, they worship the tomb. They offer wreath on the tomb. So tamasic. What is there in the tomb? But because they're tamasic, they're worshiping like that. And this, this so*-called incarnation worship is also tamasic. By tamasic, in darkness they accept somebody as incarnation, and they worship. This is tamasic. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: If someone said to us that "You are worshiping samādhi," what is the answer? *Prabhupāda: Samādhi, we are offering respect to the ācāryas. Yes. Not that we are simply worshiping samādhi. We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa also, side by side. It is not that... Then samādhi worship is finished. That is ācārya. Ācārya is, although worshiped as the Supreme Lord, but the Lord is also worshiped. And these Māyāvādīs, they give up the worship of Lord. So therefore they are Māyāvādīs. In Māyāvādī temple you'll find the picture of the guru and not the picture of Kṛṣṇa. I have seen in Surat, one temple of "Rāma." There is no Rāma. Guru is Rāma. That's all. Guru brahma, (Hindi) [break] ...caittya*-guru, because he has merged into the existence of Lord, he has become Lord. "Merging-Lord. Daridra-nārāyaṇa, merging-nārāyaṇa." This is... Devotee: The Jains have the same kind of philosophy also. Prabhupāda: Everyone. All philosophies, they are more or less Māyāvāda. All Māyāvāda. Different types of Māyāvāda philosophy. Therefore they should be discarded. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. What you are, all students? Students: Yes. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Eh? Student: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have seen our temple? Student: Not seen your temple. Prabhupāda: So? You are not interested in Kṛṣṇa philosophy? Indian man (2): That's right. They are very interested. *Prabhupāda: The... Every young boy, or even young child... Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. And that is the instruction of Prahlāda Mahārāja. He was a five years old child, and he was teaching his class friends Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in that teaching he said... The other children, they said, "Why you are teaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Let us play." So he answered, "No, no, my dear friends." Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. This science, Bhagavad*-dharma, should be learned from the very beginning of life. That is Vedic culture. Brahmacārīs, they were living at the place of guru and learning this science. That is Vedic culture. [break] ...boys of Europe and America, they are accepting this Vedic culture. Why you are keeping aloof? What is the reason? Indian man (2): They are praying, but not showing. Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Satsvarūpa: They are praying, but not showing. Prabhupāda: Oh. So they are showing only? Indian man (2): No, no, no. It is not only showing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (2): That means "We pray at home." Prabhupāda: Pray at home? Indian man (2): Yeah. Prabhupāda: Secretly? Indian man (2): Not secretly. Just before others. Prabhupāda: Hm. That's all right. If you are praying, it is all right. But our proposal is that you have to understand the science. Prayer is very good, but if one offers prayer after knowing the science, that is very good. Indian man (2): So we are also giving the knowledge about the science, science of Kṛṣṇa philosophy. Satsvarūpa: We...? Devotee: Are we giving the knowledge? Devotee (2): Giving knowledge about science. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yaśomatīnandana: He means material science. Prabhupāda: Material science? No, no, I am talking of Kṛṣṇa science. Indian man (2): About the existence of God? *Prabhupāda: Not only existence. What is God, first of all. He must exist. Otherwise, where there is question of "What is God?" So what is the nature of God, what is our position, what is our relationship with God, what is our duty, and what is the goal of life, these things are very thoroughly discussed in Bhagavad*-gītā. So if we understand Bhagavad-gītā very nicely, then we understand the whole science of God. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...that Kṛṣṇa comes, descends personally, to settle up the contention whether God is person or imperson. So even the Kṛṣṇa's presence cannot convince these Māyāvādīs, poor fund of knowledge, that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord is person. Girirāja: (reading:) "Somehow people can understand the different incarnations of Your Lordship, but they are puzzled to understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa with two hands, moving among human beings exactly like one of them." Prabhupāda: [break] ...them, the form is meant for killing them, chastising them. Therefore dangerous. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So for the nondevotees the form is very dangerous. Sadā paśyanti yoginaḥ. Yogis, they concentrate their mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is real yoga. [break] ...boat, he crossed over. Mahāṁsa: This śloka is... Where is that śloka, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: It is in the Tenth Canto. Bhavāmbudhir vatsa*-padam. Just like this ocean, if it becomes a small pit, then don't require a big ship to cross over. You just... Like this. It can be reduced. By Kṛṣṇa's desire, it can be done so. Just like at the present moment... Formerly, people used to go to London from India, from Bombay, at least, in fifteen days. Now it doesn't take even fifteen hours. It takes only nine hours. How it has been reduced? Because there is a process to reduce. Similarly, the supreme spiritual process is like that. It can be reduced to any quantity. Aṇi... This is called aṇimā-siddhi. It can be expanded also, to the greatest length. Mahimā-śakti. All-powerful means not that "I cannot do, I cannot, I can do this only." No, anything He can do. That is all powerful. Aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā. Just like all these big, big planets, they are floating in the sky. This is called laghimā, weightless, no weight. Those who are going to the moon planet, they are finding out weightlessness. How it has become weightless? Such a big, huge... Just this planet. With so many seas and mountains and cities and buildings. But it is floating. That's a fact. It is floating like a swab. How it is floating? You can say something nonsense, but the actual fact is this. Mahāṁsa: You give the example in *Nectar of Devotion*... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁsa: ...that when the..., dead bodies will sink in the water, but a live, when the body has life, it can float on water. So when Kṛṣṇa enters... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mahāṁsa: ...impregnates... Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁsa: ...material nature, it can become weightless. Prabhupāda: Yes. A dead body immediately goes down in the water, but a living body floats. So this is the example, that because viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthita. Because Kṛṣṇa enters this material world as Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, therefore it floats. Just like this airplane. It is floating so long the pilot is there. If the pilot is not there, it will not float, however good machine it may be. It will not float; it will come down. These are the ex... [break] ...soul, the spiritual spark, even in minute quantity, it can float the heaviest matter. This is the conclusion. [break] ...so high and if the pilot is killed some way or other, no more floating, come down. Mahāṁsa: So this laghimā siddhi is also being attained by the material scientists? Prabhupāda: Huh? Mahāṁsa: This is also a siddhi, that they can invent a plane...? *Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent. By material arrangement... The yogis can do still more. Without any material machine, they can float. They can walk on the water, becomes light. [break] ...man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is the process. [break] ...colleges, the students are being educated that there is no God. And they expect good behavior from them. And when they set fire in the bus, that is... "The students are so dangerous now." But you have made them dangerous. The educational system. They are protesting against the existence of God. [break] ...so-called swamis. And they are also accelerating, "yes, no more. There is no God. Why you are searching God anywhere? There are so many gods loitering in the street. They are God." That is the statement of Vivekananda. "Why you are finding out, trying to find out God elsewhere. These are Gods." [break] ...if required, one may come, very easily, one may take some time. But we should go on preaching. Indian (3): No, exactly. We should not do anything... *Prabhupāda: No. [break] ...American, rude. That is my experience. He may not agree with my philosophy. [break] ...the reason is that they are not poverty*-stricken. Yes. When one becomes poverty-stricken, his all good qualities become null and void. Daridra-doṣa guṇa-rāśi nāśī. Our country is now poverty-stricken. Therefore we have lost our all good qualities. [break] ...loss is that we have lost our culture, original Vedic culture. That is the greatest loss. When the culture was that one man was trying to kill one cow, and immediately Mahārāja Parīkṣit wanted to take step against him. Now just see how much that culture has gone down. Here ten thousand, twelve thousand cows are being killed regularly under government management. You see. [break] ...for stopping cow-killing. Indian (3): But even then they don't listen. *Prabhupāda: No. Even Gandhi refused. Gandhi was approached by the... "Mahātmāji, you can stop this cow*-killing." He replied, "How can I stop? It is their religion." Just see. [break] ...kṛṣi go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. This is the duty of the vaiśyas. Indian (3): Killing of the cow, there is no... Prabhupāda: Eh? [break] But who supplies the cow to us? Indian (3): They are Hindus. Prabhupāda: They are Hindus. [break] ...travelling with a Mohammedan. At that time there was no Second Class, Inter Class or Second Class I was. So that Mohammedan gentleman, when he called for that food supply, so he was asking very... "Is there any meat, cow's flesh?" "No, no, sir. No, sir." "That's all right." (end) Morning Walk -- April 10, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...yogic practice. So to save oneself from the influence of material laws. [break] Girirāja: "...executed all religious principles. In this way you were able to cleanse your heart and control the influence of material law. In executing your austerities you used to eat only the leaves of the trees which fell to the ground." [break] ...takes birth in other planets are the same Devakī and Vasudeva, His parents? Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: Then how is it that after they gave birth to Kṛṣṇa this time they went back to Godhead? Prabhupāda: What is the objection? Girirāja: Well, according to the usual way of thinking, we think that if somebody if... Well, that doesn't apply in this case. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the universe, Kṛṣṇa may have another devotee like them. If there is another universe, why not another couple? There is everything another. Because we are limited, we want to make Kṛṣṇa always limited. How it can be? We should always remember Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable omnipotency. [break] ...know how many thousands of couple are there because Kṛṣṇa's, that birth is going on every moment. Therefore it is called nitya*-līlā, in this universe immediately born, that that birth, that pastime, is again immediately manifested in another universe. He has grown old two days; so the same form again in another universe. The same example. Just like 6:30 AM on the sun, solar calculation, immediately in another country, 6:30 AM. Is it not? Mahāṁsa: Yes. *Girirāja: [break] ...the position of being Kṛṣṇa's parents or hearing Bhagavad*-gītā or being a cowherd boyfriend, can be filled by different living entities qualified in the different universes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: But that makes them sound like they are posts instead of individuals. I thought you once said that Arjuna, he always stays in the material universes. He's a person and he always travels with Kṛṣṇa, not that it's a post. Prabhupāda: Everyone, all the associates of Kṛṣṇa, like Kṛṣṇa. [break] Girirāja: Right now Kṛṣṇa is in so many different universes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: And He is having the same pastimes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girirāja: And in each universe there is an Arjuna. Prabhupāda: Everything. Girirāja: Everything. So is it the same living soul, Arjuna, in each universe, or a different living being may be taking that position? *Prabhupāda: Take it for granted, different. What is the wrong there? After all, everyone is Kṛṣṇa's expansion. Ānanda cinmāyā-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. We are also expansion. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But still, we have got individuality. Kṛṣṇa proved it*-I explained that in Vṛndāvana when everything was stolen by Brahmā. Again another batch of cows and calves and cowherds boys. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Immediately. What is the difficulty for Kṛṣṇa? Is it clear or not? You wanted to clarify. Is it clear or not? Satsvarūpa: Yes, you said the answer is that it's different persons, not just one Arjuna, not just one Yaśodā. Prabhupāda: Just like I have got hundred branches. Each branch I have got a set of my sitting room, of my books and everything. And wherever I go I see the same place. If it is possible for an ordinary man to have a hundred sets of the same thing, why not for Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja: So in each branch you have a different cook, different president, different treasurer... Prabhupāda: But the set is there, what I want. The set is there. Girirāja: Yes. Now in the case of Jaya and Vijaya, who fell down and took the role of demons, after three births as demons, they were supposed to go back to the spiritual world. So after the three births in this universe, were the same pastimes going on in other universes.? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Whenever Kṛṣṇa desires that He is to fight with somebody, another must prepare himself for fighting, becomes His enemy. Because in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no chance of fighting, therefore He sends His devotees to become His enemy and there He fights. Girirāja: So other living entities would play the part of Rāvaṇa in other universes? Prabhupāda: Why not? Or any other way. Mahāṁsa: We cannot actually conceive of all these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. The conclusion is that Kṛṣṇa being the reservoir of all pleasure, so the pleasure of fighting is there. So He can exhibit anywhere. [break] That is the understanding of Kṛṣṇa. As soon as we limit Kṛṣṇa like one of us, or little bigger than me, then I become doctor frog. (aside:) Don't come near. Why don't you tell them? [break] Girirāja: "...Vasudeva attempted to take His son from the delivery room, and exactly at that time, a daughter was born of Nanda and Yaśodā. She was Yogamāyā, the internal potency of the Lord. By the influence of His internal potency, Yogamāyā, all the residents of Kaṁsa's palace, especially the doorkeepers, were overwhelmed with deep sleep and all the palace doors opened although they were barred and shackled with iron chains. The night was very dark, but as soon as Vasudeva took Kṛṣṇa on His lap and went out, he could see everything just as in the sunlight." [break] Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...he worships like anything. Then he... We have an assembly, and they passed by majority vote that I should refrain from coming here, but I somehow or other came. Prabhupāda: But I saw and offer my obeisances to your motorcar. (laughter) I was thinking that "Dr. Patel's representative, the car is here." Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Because we are trained to all the accredited saints of India, to whatever opinion... Prabhupāda: Our business is to point out who is not a saint. Dr. Patel: But don't point us out. We want the tree to be a saint. Prabhupāda: That is our business. Preacher must be. (Hindi) [break] ...can I speak something? Because their position is to take Ramakrishna as a saintly person. Saintly person there may be. Just like Rāvaṇa. He also underwent severe penances, but just to fulfill his personal desire, or Rāvaṇa was so devotee of Lord Śiva that he was cutting his head and offering to the Deity. Is it? You know, everyone? Dr. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why he is called rākṣasa, not a saintly person? What is the reason? Mahāṁsa: Because he was trying to en... *Prabhupāda: I will talk. Why he is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? And not only that... I do not know whether here. In Delhi have seen Rāma*-līlā, the effigy of Rāvaṇa is beaten with shoes sometimes. But actually he was a great devotee of Lord Śiva. Everyone knows. And he was so big devotee that Lord Śiva gave him all benedictions, "Whatever you want." So why this Rāvaṇa is described in the śāstra as rākṣasa? Why he is not described as a saintly person? He was a brāhmaṇa by birth. He was born of a brāhmaṇa father, and he was great student of Vedas. Materially he was very opulent so that he could control even the demigods. He was so powerful. Still, with all this qualification, why he is described as rākṣasa? You answer this point. Indian man (2): Because he had some fight with... So kāma, krodha, moha, lobha, he had that also... [break] *Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee of the Lord. So anyone... That is our criterion. Anyone who is not a devotee, whatever he may be... He may be very, very big or so*-called saintly, but according to the description of the śāstras, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. We shall calculate in that way. As soon as we... Indian man (3): He was devotee of Lord Śiva. Otherwise why Lord Śiva gives him whatever he wants? *Prabhupāda: Lord Śiva is Lord Śiva. He is very powerful demigod. He can give. He has got the power. But in spite of being favored by Lord Śiva, in spite of his becoming the great devotee of Lord Śiva, why he is described as rākṣasa? That is the point. So therefore if I say Rāvaṇa a rākṣasa, according to the śāstra, another devotee may be angry. So what can I do? It is stated in the śāstra, rākṣasa. Similarly, in the śāstra it is stated that na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ: "If one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he is duṣkṛtina, the most sinful, mūḍhā, rascal, naradhāma, lowest of the mankind, māyayā apahṛta*-jñāna." These things are there. But if we quote the śāstra, that "This man has not surrendered to the Supreme Lord; *therefore he is a rascal," then what is wrong with us? It may be very strong words, but it is stated in the śāstra. Just like about Rāvaṇa, it is stated that he is a rākṣasa. So it may be very insulting and strong words, but this is the statement of the śāstra. And if one quotes from the śāstra, what is wrong on his part? Suppose in the court a big man has done something criminal, and the judgement is that he should be punished. So can you accuse the court, "Oh, such a big man?" Just like... For the time being let us understand. Mahatma Gandhi was put to jail in so many times. So nobody could say because according to law there was civil disobedience. So if the law puts you in the jail, so can you protest against that? Then you will be also put into jail, contempt of court. Although everyone respects Mahatma Gandhi, but why he was put into jail? According to law. It may be it is man*-made law, it is wrong, but the principle is that whatever is judgement of the śāstra, we have to take. It doesn't matter who is that man and how great he is. That is... Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na siddhim sa... [Bg. 16.23]. The śāstra is given stress always. So you cannot go beyond the verdict of the śāstra. That is the injunction. [break] ...about Guru Nanak's statement that... Indian man (4): Rāma gao rāvaṇa gao. Prabhupāda: You just explain that. Indian man (4): (Hindi) [break] Prabhupāda: As soon as he said that, he was killed immediately. That is the atheistic version. "I don't care for God," So as soon as he became atheistic, he was killed, and so long he was chanting, "Rāma will kill me, Rāma will kill me," so he was not killed. Indian man (4): He was a bhakta at that time according to the... [break] Prabhupāda: He was chanting the holy name of Rāma. Indian man (4): He was chanting Rāma, Rāma, Rāma. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani, iti rāma*-padenāsau paraṁ brahma ity abhidhīyate. So so long one chants Rāma Kṛṣṇa, who can kill him? Yes. That is the point. [break] When he constructed bridge on the ocean, the stones were floating. Where is the law of gravitation go on? So He can do that. He withdrew the law of gravitation. [break] ...position of the demons. Although he is not learned, he will give instruction. Mahāṁsa: [break] ...who is learned. [break] Prabhupāda: ...business, that without being learned in the subject matter he wants to give instruction. [break] Girirāja: "Sir, let us now make arrangements to kill all children who were born within the last ten days in towns, countries, villages and pasturing grounds." [break] Prabhupāda: On this side there is government sign, "No dogs," "No dogs." Dogs are not allowed. Indian man (4): What is the reason? Prabhupāda: Dogs are disturbing to the people. They can attack any man. If one takes dog, he must lash it, chain. That is the law there. [break] Indian man (4): There is no idea also. When master is there, then he can control the dog. Prabhupāda: Oh, the master is... He may be master of the dog, but he is not master of the world. Indian man (4): But that is how he did it. Prabhupāda: That is quite all right, but after all, it is dog. After all, it is dog. Indian man (4): And the law also is that it should be chained. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...sometimes dog attacks the master. Not only dog, animals. [break] ...the bitterest enemies of the demons, always. That is the position. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. So demigods, they are devotees of Viṣṇu, and they are always enemies unto the demons. [break] ...especially in the heart of the saintly person, to kill the saintly person. So Kṛṣṇa also will be killed. Because Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart, therefore everyone is Kṛṣṇa. The same conclusion. Mahāṁsa: That does not show any logic, because He is in everybody's heart, how can anyone be Kṛṣṇa? [break] *Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. [break] ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. [break] Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, saṁskāra before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; *then nāma*-karma; *then when he is grown boy, upanayana*-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; *then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa*-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇas. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "Everyone is śūdra." [break] ...no education. Still, one is called paṇḍitji. What is the meaning of this "paṇḍitji?" If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇḍitji? (laughing) [break] That paṇḍiya is also another form of paṇḍita. Indian man (4): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. From paṇḍiya, paṇḍiya. From paṇḍitya, from paṇḍitya, it comes paṇḍiya. Indian man (4): He is not a paṇḍita. He is a pukka businessman. *Prabhupāda: Mean, I say this is going on. But śāstra says if one is engaged in a particular type of occupation, he should be called that. Yasya hi yal*-lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañ-jakam. To designate into certain type of varṇa, there are symptoms. That symptoms, yadi anyatra vidhiṣyeta, if it is found somewhere else, tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35], one should ascertain by the symptoms. This is the sastric injunction. Indian man (5): According to the work it is known. Prabhupāda: Yes. Even a man is born in the brāhmaṇa family, but if he is working as something else, so he should be... Practically also... Just like somebody is paṇḍita, brāhmaṇa, but if he is doing the work of an engineer or doctor, he is addressed as "Doctor Saheb." That is practical. "Doctor Saheb. Engineer Saheb." Not "Paṇḍitji." Indian man (5): By birth he may be brāhmaṇa like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. By birth, there is no brāhmaṇa. By saṁskāra. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is... Indian man (4): Birthright is not brāhmaṇa. No birthright. Prabhupāda: No, no. Indian man (4): Provided he has got the particular saṁskāra. (Hindi) That is the beginning of it. Prabhupāda: Ah, that is the beginning of saṁskāra. There is regular ceremony. Indian man (5): But a very few people nowadays... Prabhupāda: Still in Bengal, when the husband meets first the wife, there is saṁskāra. There is regular pūjā, patha. Then the husband and wife meet together. We had the same saṁskāra in our family. It was going on. When we were young man, it was going on. Indian man (4): Semen ceremony. Indian man (6): Semen means before the birth. Indian man (5): After pregnancy, eight or nine months, something like that. *Prabhupāda: That is ṣaḍ*-lakṣana. That is another thing. Before sex, there is a ceremony. That is called garbhādhāna. [break] Śrīdhara: "...ceremony takes place after the birth of the child. The family members take baths, cleanse themselves, and decorate themselves with ornaments and garlands. Then they come before the child and the astrologer to hear the future life of the child. Nanda Mahārāja and other members of the family dressed and sat down in front of the birthplace. All the brāhmaṇas who were assembled there on this occasion chanted auspicious mantras." [break] Prabhupāda: [break] ...Mahārāja. This is kṣatriya king. Who has got so many cows to distribute? They cannot maintain even one cow. He is handed it over to the slaughterhouse. This is our position. Śrīdhara: "He not only gave cows in charity, but hills of grain, decorated with golden bordered garments and many ornaments." *Prabhupāda: Anna-vastra, anna-vastra-dhana. Charity means to give in charity anna and vastra and cows. [break] ...give in charity some paper, one hundred rupees. (laughs) Another cheating. And he is also satisfied, "One hundred rupees." What is this one hundred? It is a paper, a piece of paper. [break] ...earned, black market, white market. Because when one does business, he has to do it, but it should be purified. I have seen the Marwaris, they do that. Although when earning money, they don't care, they do anything, but they give in charity. [break] ...purify the body by taking bath, similarly, the wealth is purified by the charity process, giving it to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He accumulated much wealth. He brought in a big boat, all gold coins. So... So he distributed fifty percent to the brāhmaṇa and Vaiṣṇava and twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his personal emergency. This is example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. [break] Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. So where is that vaiśya, giving protection to the cows? Although they were village men, they were very rich. That is the old Vedic civilization. Now you go to the village*-all poor. The cows are skinny, people have no home, no nice cloth. This is the position. And we are still advanced, advanced. They are proud of "advanced." And here is the... Just hear the description of the village, with cows only. So how much fallen we have become, we can just imagine. Devotee: Prabhupāda, in New Delhi the government has banned the use of milk in the sweet shops and there is no more cheese or any milk products. Prabhupāda: Yes. And there will be no more. These things will vanish. That is stated in the... Rice, wheat, milk, sugar and fruits, they will be no more available. You have to eat meat. That day is coming. But before that day comes, you go back to home, back to Godhead. Devotees: Jaya! Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa and everything is finished, all this nonsense place, full of demons. Śrīdhara: "They possessed such an abundance of various kinds of milk products that they were throwing butter lavishly on each other's body without restriction." Prabhupāda: Just see how rich they were. Indian man: So much butter and all these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. Throwing butter like anything. Yes. Indian man: Now we can see also. Prabhupāda: Just see. Śrīdhara: "Their wealth was in milk, yogurt, clarified butter and many other milk products. And by trading their agricultural products, they were rich in various kinds of jewelry, ornaments and costly dresses." [break] Prabhupāda: ...even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And they are jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sari and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad... You have got everything, material needs. [break] If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. [break] ...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇas. So therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇas and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya. [break] ...proṣita bhārtṛkā. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermillion, that means she is married. When the, what is called, division? Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute. The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are widow, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress... Indian man: Yes. You can recognize here. But now they are changed completely. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When the girl has no this covering, that means she is virgin. She is not married. In this way all the signs are there. This is prosita bhartrka. Prosita*-bhartrka means one whose husband is not at home, outside. Then she will not dress, she will not take regular bath, so that people may know that her husband is not at home. Śrīdhara: She won't take bath? Prabhupāda: Not, take bath not with any oil. Yes. Means she wanted to avoid very good looking. Yes, that is the idea. Śrīdhara: "But although Rohiṇī's husband was away, she still dressed herself on this occasion." Prabhupāda: [break] ...deliver each and every child to Kamsa, but in the case of Kṛṣṇa he did not do so. He did not deliver. He cheated him by changing. So to give protection to Kṛṣṇa, they had to do something, even it is not sanctioned. He violated because he promised before Kaṁsa that "I shall deliver all the children," and he did it. But when there was Kṛṣṇa, he broke the promise. Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend it is very difficult...' " Prabhupāda: Therefore Vasudeva is very jubilant that Kṛṣṇa is now alive and His birthday ceremony has been performed. Therefore he is so pleased. Śrīdhara: "Vasudeva continued, 'My dear friend, it is very difficult for us to live together.' " [break] Prabhupāda: ...cows were getting grass also. Water. But you will find there is no water, there is no grass in the field. And the government is sending the cows to the slaughterhouse. This is the condition of present India. In Europe, America, although they are selling the cows to the slaughterhouse, they have got enough grass and water. That I have seen. At least so long they live, the cows are comfortably maintained. But here there is no comfort for the cows. Now here the anxiety is whether the cows are getting sufficient grass and water. Makhanlal: What's the explanation then? They are slaughtering more cows in the United States, but there is still more fortunate situation there materially. *Prabhupāda: No, that is now dwindling. The hippies are coming out. So one day it will be finished. One day it will be finished. That... It has already begun. The future hope is now becoming hippies. So who will manage this? It is already there is a problem how to maintain the industry, how to... This has become a problem. So naturally, when the, there will be all hippies, not to work, then everything collapses. The so*-called prosperity will be finished. [break] Nobody is working sincerely. Here also in India, all government servants, they do not work. The manager of the government coal company said that "The workers in the mine, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase the price." So now, everything dependent on one another, so if one side there is noncooperation, the whole thing will collapse. [break] ...college they don't work. One thing is that draft board chasing all young men. (end) Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay Italian Man (1): It is the most satisfying thing I have been reading up to now. I have been searching through the Tibetan Books of the Dead, but it wasn't enough, and this is beyond that. It is really complete. Prabhupāda: In your country people will like it? They would like these ideas? Italian Man (1): Oh, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. I have such a keen interest in going to see what the situation is because I... [break] ...for Venice. Prabhupāda: Oh, Venice. Italian Man (1): Yes. So it would be so fantastic to present them a platform of religion so... Prabhupāda: It is not religion. Of course it is religion. But the religion, as it is misunderstood in European countries that religion is a kind of faith, but it is not like that. It is science. It is fact. Religion, you have got some faith. That may not be right. It may be wrong. Just like the Christian religion, they have got faith in this way, that animal has no soul. Do you know that? Italian Man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: That's not a fact. Do you agree or not? Italian Man (1): I do. Prabhupāda: Animal also has soul. Italian Man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Why do they disagree, that animal has no soul? What is the point? Why do they say? Italian Man (1): Because they don't like to identify themselves with animals. Because if they admit that animals have a soul, then they have to identity, means they are afraid of identifying with animals. They feel they are superior to animals. We are superior to animals, indeed, but... Prabhupāda: That is by intelligence. We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by... Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, "After all, it is child." Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul. Yes. The evolution of different types of body means evolution of intelligence. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, the flower is there. But the fragrance or the beauty has not yet developed. So unless the things are there, how it can develop? Similarly, the soul is there in every living entity, but according to the development of the body, evolution of the body, the intelligence becomes manifest. Otherwise, what is the meaning of education? Education means to develop the intelligence. That is education. Italian Man (1): Are you thinking of formal education now? *Prabhupāda: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says "This is... My dear child, it is watch." Once, twice, thrice, you call, "Watch, watch, watch," he learns, "This is watch." Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi, aside) So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position, what he is actually, and acts like that, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is full development. That is called buddhi*-yogam. Buddhi is there, intelligence is there, and when it is fully developed for understanding Kṛṣṇa, that is called buddhi-yogam. Yes. Buddhi-yogam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is described, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti. Buddhi-yogam means the intelligence, but... Don't come near. The intelligence which gets the living entity back to home, back to Godhead. That is called buddhi-yogam. Any yoga system means connecting link with the Supreme. When we speak of buddhi-yogam, that is the ultimate yoga. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata antar-ātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. All different types of yoga practice, the most important and topmost yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa always within oneself. That is being practiced, Hare Kṛṣṇa. The topmost yoga system. [break] You are experienced. Try to understand this philosophy and give it to your country. Your country is a most important country in Europe. Roman civilization. Italian Man (1): Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: Greek civilization, Roman civilization, is the beginning of European civilization. So your position is very nice. Italian Man (1): Well, yes. When I was a child I was brought up to go to the mass every morning, and I used to answer in Latin, you know, and serve the priest. Prabhupāda: Oh! Italian Man (1): Yes. Even twice a day until the age of fourteen, and then we went to catechism. And then I left, I left alone, you know, by my own will. [break] It would be fantastic to go back with a background of, with the knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and talk to them about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] ...this boy, he is going to develop our Italian center, Rome. [break] Italian Man (1): ...the personal and impersonal features of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Italian Man (1): Kṛṣṇa, being at the same time infinite expansion of energy and also being form, a person. Prabhupāda: Yes, person. Originally He is person. Italian Man (1): In the heart, you know. Prabhupāda: That is another expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Localized. Italian Man (1): Oh, I see. *Prabhupāda: Just like the sun or the moon. There is the sun-god or the moon*-god within the planet. That is the original. And then the sun globe, it is localized. And then the sunshine and the moonshine. Hare Kṛṣṇa (Hindi) (aside:) [break] ...what is impersonal and personal. What is that? Repeat it, what I have said. Italian Man (1): This way, if I understand what is personal and impersonal? Prabhupāda: Yes, what is that personal and impersonal? *Italian Man (1): Is that Kṛṣṇa also has a... He's a person. He is not only all*-pervading abstract energy. *Prabhupāda: He is all*-pervading. Italian Man (1): Yes, but He also is a person. *Prabhupāda: Not also. He is person. This all pervasive influence or all pervasive feature is His expansion of energy. The same example: The sunshine is the expansion of energy of the sun globe, and the sun globe is the place for the sun-god. The sun-god is a person, and sun globe is the place where this sun*-god lives, and sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun disc. Try to understand it very... Because this question is very complicated. People cannot understand. You try to understand this. God, Kṛṣṇa, is originally a person. Brahmeti bhagavān iti. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān [SB 1.2.11]. Just like if you want to see the sun-god, there is a person. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. He is a person. Now you cannot see the person so easily. Italian Man (1): Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Kṛṣṇa in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. His physiognomy is sac*-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. That we can understand. Sac-cid-ānanda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ānanda. Your body, my body, is just opposite. It is not eternal, it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. (aside:) Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Kṛṣṇa hasn't got a body like this. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Kṛṣṇa's body and what is our body. [break] ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature... That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hands, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand." He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand. These are very important question. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real... Therefore every living entity has got form. He is not formless. This less intelligent class of men, because they cannot see the form... It is so small... It is so small that if you divide the top portion of your hair into ten thousand parts,... Italian Man (1): Your one hair into ten thousand parts. Prabhupāda: The top portion, tip of the hair, the point, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the form of the soul. It is such minute, small... Because they cannot see, they say it is nirākāra. No, it is not nirākāra. It is there. Italian Man (1): Can I ask you one question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Italian Man (1): When we see Kṛṣṇa in us, in our hearts, the moment Kṛṣṇa comes, the moment that the link takes place with Kṛṣṇa in our hearts... Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is always within your heart. Italian Man (1): Yes. But at the moment that our soul opens itself and succeeds in putting a link... [break] I mean, I'm sorry, I mean... Prabhupāda: He has this feature. Italian Man (1): It is a matter of words. It is difficult to explain this. Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot create God. Italian Man (1): No, of course not. Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādī philosophers, they create God. Anthropomorphism. What is that anthropomorphism. Satsvarūpa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac*-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologists, they read. Because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cid. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, he has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9], to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Kṛṣṇa.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṇa's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion. Italian Man (1): In our heart. Prabhupāda: No, no, heart or not heart. Your heart or not heart, but Kṛṣṇa's position is like that. He has got eternal body. He is blissful, because there is no miseries. Temporary body means there is misery, so many miseries. At least these four miseries, birth, death, old age and disease. So eternal body has no such miseries. Therefore it is blissful. Therefore it is full of knowledge. As soon as you get your eternal body, which is already there within this temporary body, then you also become blissful and full of knowledge. That is oneness. One in quality. Kṛṣṇa has got this body, eternal, blissful, full of knowledge. So when you get this body, then you are becoming equal in quality, not in quantity. Your question is answered? Italian Man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: If you have got any doubt, you can still ask. Italian Man (1): Maybe... May I emphasize... [break] Prabhupāda: We have got your photo. So... but the difference is that your photograph and you are different. Because the photograph is of the temporary body, therefore it is not absolute. But Kṛṣṇa, being everything, Kṛṣṇa's photograph is also Kṛṣṇa. Italian Man (1): Yes, okay, thank you. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Is it all right? Italian Man (1): Yes, thank you. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything. So His photograph is also Kṛṣṇa. It is not that foolish people, they worship a photograph. No. It is reality. It is reality. Yes. [break] Kṛṣṇa is everything. Can you explain? That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Who can explain? Explain, yes. Yaśomatīnandana: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi... [Bg. 7.8]. [break] *Prabhupāda: Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Because this material world means these elements, this earth, this water, then fire, then air, then sky*-five elements. So what are these elements? These elements are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ. Italian Man (1): Material energy. Prabhupāda: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies, heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparations. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagullā, you prepare burfi and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is... Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Kṛṣṇa. [break] Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I... My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer. That is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy. Italian Man (1): I see, yes, yes. And the difference between the impersonalist, I mean, and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not believe... Prabhupāda: No, no, believe... You don't believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. We are explaining science. If somebody says, "No, there is no temperature," that is foolishness. There is temperature. How can you say there is no temperature? There is temperature. Even you go to the water, there is temperature. Everywhere. Because the elements are all there, bhūmir āpo analo vāyu... The beginning is the ākāśa, ether. The ether is in the air, the air is in the fire, the fire is in the water, and the earth is in the water. This is this way. And in the earth you will find everything. You will find air, ether, water, fire, everything. And the final state, it is ether only, originally. So suppose I am breathing. It is ethereal. But so many things are coming. If I am contaminated, by touching my breathing, you will be contaminated, and it will come out as disease. Italian Man (1): Can you repeat please? Prabhupāda: Just like this breathing is ethereal, but if there is potency... There is potency. So by being contaminated by my breathing, you become contaminated, and it comes out again as disease. So the ethereal composition is the origin. Then gradually, it develops. Ether into air, air into fire, fire into water, water into earth. [break] ...consideration of the gross thing. How the gross thing coming into existence from subtle thing, they do not know it. That is less intelligent. They cannot think very, what is called, minutely. Italian Man (1): And beyond ether? *Prabhupāda: Just like the same example. The breathing is coming from a person. So breathing is impersonal, but it is coming from the person. Similarly, originally God is person. In the Bhagavad*-gītā everything is explained, "From Me. I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is... This has to be..., how everything is coming from Him. And if we understand how it is coming, then we have to accept that it is coming from the person, not from the imperson. Imperson is secondary manifestation of the person. Just like the fire. Fire is the origin. It has got a form. But secondary manifestation of the fire is heat and light. Not that... Italian man: The second manifestation of fire is heat and light? Prabhupāda: ...is heat and light. Italian Man (1): And fire is...? *Prabhupāda: Fire is the origin. That is form. That is not formless. Heat may be formless. Light may be formless, but fire is not formless. Thik hai? If you have got intelligence, then from the form*-less, you can approach the form. Just like the sunshine, shining is formless. If you have got form, go to the sun planet. And if you go to the sun planet, you will see the sun-god. But they cannot go. They cannot appreciate that there is a person who is known as sun-god. But it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... The name is also given, what is the name of that person. [break] *Indian Man (1): ...recently what we read from the papers. There is so many... So far, nobody tells us that there is a moon*-god over there. Although they have gone to particular one place only or two, three places only, not the whole moon, but still, nobody comes from. They say nobody is there and... Prabhupāda: But these bodies are imperfect. They are not perfect. The moon may not be exposed to them, these rascals. Because a king is not exposed to the ordinary man... Unless one is fit to see him, king is not exposed. That does not mean there is no king. If some rascal says, "There is no president, there is no king," that is his rascaldom, not that there is no king, no president. He cannot see. He has not that qualification. Is that correct? Indian Man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who has no qualification, he says, because he could not see somebody, he sees, "There is no such existence." Is that a good conclusion? Indian Man (1): Good psychology. *Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is not fit to be seen by the great personality. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. You cannot see the sun-god. Does it mean there is no sun-god? What is the value of your eyes? It is imperfect. You are seeing the sun just like a disc, but it is fourteen hundred thousands of times bigger than this earth. Can you see it? Then what is the power of your seeing? Whatever you are seeing, that is defective. So don't be proud of seeing. What is your eyes? What is the value of your eyes? You cannot see even the eyelid. Can you see the eyelid? Although it is attached to your eyeball. So what is the power? Why you are so much proud of seeing? First of all, understand that "I am so defective, I cannot see perfectly, properly." And you want to see God with these defective eyes? Indian Man (2): Arjuna also says that he cannot see God. He saw the light only. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He was speaking with Kṛṣṇa. Still, he said that "I cannot see You." That is a fact. [break] Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. If you have got qualified eyes, you can see Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours. So we have to qualify, purify. Sarvopādhi-vinir... You are seeing. You are trying to see God as American, as Indian, as this and that. With that eyes you cannot see. When you are neither American nor Indian nor brāhmaṇa nor śūdra, you are pure spirit, then you can see. They want to remain with this designation-body and want to see God. That is not possible. To enter fire you have to become fire. Otherwise, it will be not possible to enter fire. So without Brahman realization, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. [break] ...is the same. Quality, it is same. It is salt, salty. And the whole ocean is also salty. That is tat tvam asi. "You are also salty," if I say. If the drop of the water, I say that "This is also salty," that is tat tvam asi. Not that he has become the whole sea. This is rascaldom. [break] ...God create another ocean in the sky. Then you are God. When there is some tooth pain, you go to the doctor, and you are God. Just see how much nonsense they are. As soon as there is tooth pain, "Oh, oh. Just now I am not God, I am patient." So these things are going on. I have seen so many gods. I have seen one that Dr. Misra. When he had a toothache, "Ohhh, oh." You see? [break] ...cheap philosophy, by misunderstanding the whole world has become atheists, all rascals. Atheist means rascal number one, mūḍhāḥ, āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. As soon as one becomes atheist, he is rascal number one. [break] Indian Man (1): ...just in the beginning, when they are in the world, the atheists... Prabhupāda: Atheists, they say that "We have not seen God." Indian Man (1): But they need support of God in the beginning. Without that, they cannot go to that... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is always. Therefore they are fools. They cannot become atheists. If somebody says that "I do not believe in God," this saying will be stopped immediately by God. He cannot do anything. And that is God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. When God comes as mṛtyuḥ, then all His talking is finished. "I don't believe in God, there is no God," finished. So control that death. Because death takes all your possession, your talking, your riches, your body, everything will be taken away. Now, why do you allow to, death, overtake you? Why do you allow? If you are God, check it. Indian Man (2): Yes, yes, don't allow your death to come. Prabhupāda: Yes, then you are God. Indian Man (1): This body is supposed to die. Prabhupāda: Why supposed? Why supposed? That is ignorance, "supposed." Because he cannot do anything, he suppose... Why? Indian Man (1): Of course, we say this body is not say absolute or permanent. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Permanent, but who has made it this? You have not made. You make a permanent body. Then you are God. Indian Man (1): That nobody can do. Prabhupāda: Therefore he is not God. That is existence of God. You cannot do because there is higher power controlling you. God means controller. He is controlling you. You cannot do that. Therefore you are not God. There is superior controller, who does not allow to do this. You have to abide by the laws. This is common sense reasoning. If you are being controlled, how you become God? God means the supreme controller. Is it all right? So long you will be controlled, you are not God. But where is the position that you are no more controlled? That position is never. Indian Man (1): It is human nature; no doubt about it. Prabhupāda: Nature? What is this nature? Nature is an agency of God by which He controls. That is nature, that "I have got a stick. I can beat you. But the stick is not beating, I am beating." This is knowledge. And the rascal will think, "The stick is beating." What stick has got power? Indian Man (1): Somebody is there. *Prabhupāda: "Yeah, behind the stick there is my hand." That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My control the nature is working." But these rascals, they do not know. They think nature is working automatically. Even they accept, but they cannot control nature. Now, how he is God? You control nature. Suppose behind the nature there is no God. All right, you control the nature. Suppose behind this stick my hand is working. You cannot see my hand. But you control this stick, which is beating you, which is kicking you. Control that. So you cannot control anything and you have become God. So 'ham, tat tvam asi. These slogans misused, simply misused. Indian Man (2): They say just something like a small degree to the people, all right, those who are coming... Prabhupāda: Childish, childish. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhā, mūḍhā. Mūḍhā means a child, they are foolish. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhāmāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. [break] ...nābhijānāti prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. What is that verse? Devotee: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ... *Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama*-bhūta maheśvaram. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. [break] ...says, bhūmir āpo analo vayuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. This water is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So how can you refute it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My energy." Indian Man (3): It is somebody's energy. That is definite. Because somebody is controlling it. Prabhupāda: No, no, not controlling. Indian Man (1): You have to believe or imagine some entity. It may be Kṛṣṇa or it... Prabhupāda: No, no, how can you disbelieve? First of all, thing is how can you disbelieve? Believe or not believe, that is another question. How you can... This water has come from some source. So what is that source? *Yaśomatīnandana: By our logical research we can come to Bhagavad*-gītā and find out Kṛṣṇa is the only person in the whole world who says that "This comes from Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Water comes from your body, perspiration. So why not from Kṛṣṇa's body? Simple reasoning. [break] ...ānanda*-vigrahaḥ. [break] ...tap produces water. An inanimate object, a small material thing, it produces water. And Kṛṣṇa cannot produce such water? [break] ...potency. They are explained. But because we do not go to the right teacher, we do not understand. That is the difficulty. Indian Man (1): But the teachers give different interpretation of the same thing. *Prabhupāda: No. The same thing means he is a rascal teacher. He is not teacher. He is cheater. When a cheater takes the place of a teacher, he explains differently. And when a teacher is there, he will explain rightly. Where is the difficulty? I have several times said that "Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad*-gītā?" There is not a single line which is very difficult to understand. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I first of all said this philosophy to Vivasvan, the sun-god." So where is the difficulty to understand this line? Where is the difficulty? Indian Man (1): No difficulty in understanding. Interpretation... Prabhupāda: Why they should interpret? Interpretation is required when there is no understanding. If the matter is clearly understood, why interpretation? This is rascaldom. Everyone understands this is called glass. And what is the use of interpretation? Here is a glass. Everyone can understand. Or spectacle. No, no. This is meaning this. Why? If the thing is clearly understood, there is no question of interpretation. You cannot give. Suppose if you go to the court, if the thing is clearly understood that "This man has committed this criminal activity, he should be punished," so where is the difficulty? No. If somebody... "No no. This 'He should be punished' means not now, after three hundred years he should be punished." Is that interpretation? He should be punished immediately. That's all. Indian Man (1): It's not like that. The material thing we can see from our... Prabhupāda: You are material, not spiritual. You are a material fool. Why do you interpret foolishly? Indian Man (1): There's no doubt about it. Indian Man (2): According to their brain and knowledge, they must have... Prabhupāda: That means rubbish brain, rubbish brain. You go, interpret and change the law. You go in the law court and you interpret in your own way. Can you interpret in the law court? "Sir, I have got a different interpretation." "Get out. Get out, rascal, from this..." Indian Man (1): No, no. Even the judges in the Supreme Court in India, they go after the interpretations, they go and they become also one with the... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is extraordinarily. When the meaning of the law is not very clear, that takes place. But when the thing is very clear, there is no question of interpretation. Indian Man (1): Why there is a fight? Because both the things, both the lawyers, they take it in different way and so they come to the judge. Prabhupāda: That's right. But it is not different in such a way that you call a spectacle a something else. *Indian Man (4): Bhagavad*-gītā is really... *Prabhupāda: Yes, but it said in the Bhagavad*-gītā clearly, it is said clearly, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: "I told this philosophy to Vivasvān." Where is the difficulty to understand? Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ: [Bg. 1.1] "In the dharma-kṣetre, kuru-kṣetre, two parties willing to fight, they assembled." Where is the difficulty to understand? Why these rascals should interpret in a different way? Indian Man (1): These are all... They are not interpreting that particular word. Prabhupāda: They are doing. Yaśomatīnandana: There is nothing like Kurukṣetra, they say. Indian man (4): That is another group of people, their own brain creation. That we should not... Prabhupāda: What right you have got to interpret? Indian Man (1): Whatever it is they are saying, but the real thing we should not interpret and we cannot. Prabhupāda: But you are, after all, material. You are not spiritual. In order to get you on the spiritual platform, things are being spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Indian Man (4): And to understand something we must have... Prabhupāda: How you become all of a sudden spiritual? What is that spiritual? You do not understand what is spiritual, and you say, "It is spiritual." Indian Man (1): Well, something which we cannot see by our own eyes, something which we cannot... Prabhupāda: Then why do you interpret if you cannot see with your own eyes? You are blind. Why should you interpret? A blind man is interpreting? What is this nonsense? The blind man is just, "Oh, the elephant is big pillar." Indian Man (1): Same thing will say that elephant is only trunk. Prabhupāda: That's it. This kind of interpretation, what is the meaning? Indian: They don't have that complete view of the whole. Prabhupāda: If you are blind, you accept that "I am blind man. I cannot study what is this elephant," that is another thing. That is good. And if you are blind and by blind eyes you, "Oh, elephant is a pillar." Indian Man (1): Some other blind will say the trunk... Prabhupāda: So the blind man has no right to interpret. That is the point. Blind man... You are blind man. Remain as a blind man. Don't talk nonsense. That is our protest. Why should you interpret? You are blind man. Indian Man (4): They should not try to, just around, create the meaning of it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can we tell the difference between the blind man and one who can see? Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. Any foolish man can understand, "Here is a blind man; here is a man with eyes." It is not very difficult. Why do you question this? One cannot see, that is blind man. Everyone knows it. Yaśomatīnandana: Their interpretation is just opposing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am..." Prabhupāda: That's all. Indian Man (1): They have no opposition. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main point. That is the main point, Kaṁsa, to kill Kṛṣṇa. "Let Kṛṣṇa come out and I shall kill Him immediately." The Kaṁsa philosophy. All these rascals, they don't give any importance to Kṛṣṇa. All this interpretation. Indian Man (1): Śaṅkarācārya has written the Kṛṣṇa aṣṭakam. Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya is not blind man. But those who are rascals, blind, why do they interpret? They should not interpret. [break] Italian Man (4): ...mentioned Kṛṣṇa. This is... Prabhupāda: Yes. He is coming from Europe. Jaya. He's also. Never mentioned. The only policy is how to kill Kṛṣṇa. Italian Man (4): These important writers who have been read throughout Europe, France and England, who has no importance for the moment, they have never tried to give a (sic:) lifely idea of Kṛṣṇa, the pastimes and the youthfulness, and the liveliness of this is not given. And they will take... Yes, that's it. Yes. Prabhupāda: Here is a foreign reader. He says. Indian Man (1): Which book you have read? Italian Man (4): Well, I have read every book that can be available. *Indian Man (1): Have you read Rādhākrishnan on Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: He is first*-class impersonalist. He is a first-class blind man. First-class blind man. Indian Man (1): But still, he appreciates Kṛṣṇa. He has never told any... Prabhupāda: How can you... Indian Man (1): Well, I read it, I studied it. Prabhupāda: No, no. After all, he's a brāhmaṇa, Hindu brāhmaṇa. How he can defy Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible. Indian Man (1): On the contrary, he is also a bhakta of Kṛṣṇa, but he says that after bhakti, devotion... Indian Man (5): Who? Indian Man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan. Indian Man (5): President of India. [break] Indian Man (4): Our book is there in London, not Vivekananda. Prabhupāda: Yes. His books are rejected. Indian Man (1): No, he has written from the different point of view. Prabhupāda: No why, what right? That is the... Indian Man (1): You are putting your idea. That is a bad decision. *Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. Why you should put a different point of view? Just like Rādhākrishnan says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī: [Bg. 18.65] "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, the person." Just see, how much rascaldom. Kṛṣṇa says, "You become My devotee," and he interprets, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, the person." Just see. Indian Man: Kṛṣṇa says,"Surrender everything." That's all. And they say, "No..." Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says that "You surrender." He says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much rascal he is. And if I say, then people will be angry. If I say, "rascal, rascal," then people will be angry. *Italian Man (4): So you actually mean to say that these people who have been writing from..., taking especially from Bhagavad*-gītā and some of other Vedic scriptures, do you think that the fact that they didn't mention...? I have been thinking that maybe they have not talking about Kṛṣṇa, just to say maybe they might have thought "Well, people don't know who is Kṛṣṇa, and therefore I only say God." Prabhupāda: Why? Kṛṣṇa is there. Italian Man (4): Or do you think that there was a purpose in their mind. Prabhupāda: Purpose, yes, not to give importance to Kṛṣṇa. That is going on. Italian Man (4): And on themself only. Indian Man (1): Not self only. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that rascaldom is going on. And our society is protesting. Therefore we are enemy of everyone. Because we are protesting against this. "You cannot do this. You cannot do this." As soon as say, "Oh, why you are decrying? He is also incarnation of God." What kinds of God? A rascal, we shall accept incarnation of God? You see? I am not so fool. Kṛṣṇa says that... What is that? Kāmais tais tair hṛta*-jñānāḥ yajanti anya-devatāḥ: [Bg. 7.20] "A person who is lost of his intelligence, he worships demigods." And a person worshiping a demigod, he becomes God. Just see. He's a nonsense, naṣṭa-buddhayaḥ, because he is worshiping demigod, and by worshiping demigod he became God. Where is this in the śāstra? This rascaldom is going on. First of all, anyone who worships a demigod, he is a rascal. And it is advertised "By worshiping such and such demigod, a rascal has become God." And we have to accept that. We are not so foolish. First of all, he is a rascal, he has no knowledge. And one who has no knowledge and rascal, and he has become God. We have to accept that. Indian Man (1): When the people do not find any difference between the God and demigod... Prabhupāda: Why? That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. If you do not find any difference between me and my disciple, then you are foolish man. If you say, if you say... Indian Man (1): In the beginning everybody is foolish. We are born foolish. Prabhupāda: Well, born foolish. That... He has to become intelligent. But when he talks foolishly, he remains foolish. Indian Man (1): Well, so far he is not enlightened. Prabhupāda: If he talks foolishly, that means he is still foolish. He has not attained any knowledge. Indian Man (6): But after getting the knowledge, then knowledge means when we completely know the Supreme Personality is Lord Kṛṣṇa, then he is all right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Indian Man (6): But those who have got no knowledge about all these things, so they must be worshiping some Devī, Gaṇeśa... Prabhupāda: But why they take the position of a teacher? They should not take the position of a teacher. They should remain foolish, that "I have still to learn." Indian Man (1): Ah, that is the significance. They should not say that "I am already perfect." That is the sig... They should not claim like that. *Prabhupāda: That is our protest, that "You are foolish. Why you are taking the position of a teacher? You are foolish. You are rascal. You don't take the position of a teacher. Then you are a cheater. First of all make your life..." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, janma sārthaka kari kara paropakāra: "First of all make your life successful. Then you become a teacher." Paropakāra. You are a fool number one and you are going to make paropakāra? Daridra*-nārāyaṇa. (laughter) [break] ...when they take the position of teacher, they not only do harm to themselves but to others. So our protest is that "You are a fool, rascal. You go to hell. Why you induce others to go to hell?" Indian Man (1): They want some companions. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Why, why, why? This is very dangerous. If I know that "I am blind," why should I ask other blind man, "All right you come behind me. I shall cross you the ocean." Why this cheating? You say that "I am blind man. You are also blind man. So I cannot guide you." That is sincerity. That is sincere. [break] ...very much bewildered all over the world due to this rascal philosophy, that a blind man leading other blind men. So they should be delivered from this gross ignorance. [break] ...say that we have got eyes, but we are being led by Kṛṣṇa, who has got real eyes. Therefore we are safe. Indian Man (1): In this world, unless they see the particular person. Prabhupāda: They cannot see. He is blind, how he can see? Indian Man (1): It is very difficult to believe he is God... Prabhupāda: No, no, believe or don't believe. That is another thing. Indian Man (1): So we must have spiritual eyes or something which is beyond our physical body. And so how why we are drowsing ourself and why we are just galloping in a different way? Because everybody says it is beyond... Prabhupāda: No. Suppose you are blind. So you require the help of a man who has got eyes. So unless you are sure that "This man has got eyes," why should you take care of him? That is another ignorance. If I know the man who proposes to lead me, he is also blind, why shall I take his help? Indian Man (1): But if he says, "I am also blind," but just trying to find out the way... Prabhupāda: Yes, so find out the right way. Find out a man who has got the eyes. Indian Man (1): But right, everything is right... Prabhupāda: No, no, "Everything is right," that is your misfortune. You do not know. Because we know the right man is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone knows. But your misfortune. You do not accept Kṛṣṇa. You accept something else. Indian Man (1): No, accepting Kṛṣṇa is..., no doubt about it. Prabhupāda: Then accept Kṛṣṇa. Everyone knows. Indian Man (1): But generally, people, they don't go blindly. That is what the difficulty is. They want open their eyes, they want to have opened their mind, and still, they wanted to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. *Prabhupāda: No, no, if there is doubt, if there is doubt, why shall I accept a person who is doubtful? Why not accept a person who is without doubt? Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all ācāryas. All ācāryas. So why not accept Kṛṣṇa? Why imitation Kṛṣṇa? This Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa, dini*-Kṛṣṇa. That is our protest. You accept Kṛṣṇa and be led by Him. The path is clear. [break] ...simply advertising that "You are searching after some leader. Take this leader, Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "We have taken. You also take." We don't say anybody else, no. We are fools. We do not know if there is anybody. So we are fools. Let us remain like a fool like that and follow Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't say that "I have got eyes, I have got full knowledge." No, we don't say that. Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. This is our version. We request that "You take Kṛṣṇa. You will be benefited." And actually it is being done. We don't present a false person. We present the real person, Kṛṣṇa. Now, if you are misfortunate, you cannot take, that is your business. That is your business. Indian Man (1): It is open, anybody can take. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...qualification is there. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You speak only Kṛṣṇa's words. He doesn't say, "Your words, your interpretation." This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa's words. What Kṛṣṇa has said, just speak it. Then you become spiritual master. Girirāja: (reading) "...should see to the peace and comfort of his fellow man and the animals. The development of religious principles, economic development, and sense gratification can then be achieved without difficulty." *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...stress on Kṛṣṇa. And they have written so many commentaries on the Bhagavad*-gītā. And this is the first time, we have given. Indian Man (1): Yes, very good. [break] Prabhupāda: ...spoken. If somebody writes an ordinary book, one studies his life, his characters and everything, the authors. And these rascal will not study Kṛṣṇa. And they will comment upon Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Nobody is interested about the life of Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...the author, there is short sketch of life. But nobody writes Kṛṣṇa's life. You see? Nobody writes. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda writes. Indian Man (1): The same thing happens with so many other books also because it is not known properly to proper persons... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Why do they touch of writing books? They are foolish people. Why they should attempt to write books and mislead others? That is our protest. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa's life in two big, big volumes. Indian Man (1): But these volumes are very short, sir. *Prabhupāda: Yes, no, the lowest. But they have not written even a page about Kṛṣṇa's life. And writing comments on Bhagavad*-gītā. Just see how much rascal they are. Not even a page. Rather, they deny, "There was no Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much foolish they are, and they are writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. That is our regret, that how these rascals dare to write on Bhagavad-gītā? [break] Girirāja: "...when Vasudeva was born..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...said, "When there is danger, it is a great opportunity for remembering God." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamānaḥ [SB 10.14.8]. Indian Man (1): And Kuntī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kuntī said, "I shall pray for the dangerous position so that You could remain with us." [break] Girirāja: ...open the snake in the original *Bhāgavatam*? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the kāla*-sarpa, kāla. The time is Kṛṣṇa, kāla. Therefore you can compare with snake. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. Kāla means death. So snake, meeting a snake means death. So therefore He can be called a snake. Girirāja: "When Pūtanā was taking baby Kṛṣṇa on her lap, both Yaśodā and Rohinī were present." [break] Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa shows by example. Devotee: Would that be a young cow or a mother cow? Prabhupāda: Any cow. Girirāja: "The child was completely washed with the urine of the cow and the dust created by the hooves of the cows was thrown all over His body." [break] Prabhupāda: ...if they kill Kṛṣṇa, then all these questions does not come. You see? Because they want to kill the cows. And if he worships Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme, then he has to accept these principles. Therefore they want to kill Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: So they can kill the cows. Girirāja: "The transcendental body of Kṛṣṇa did not require any protection, but to instruct us on the importance of the cow, the Lord was smeared over with cow dung and washed with the urine of the cow, sprinkled with the dust raised by the walking of the cow." [break] Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, yes. We shall come Satsvarūpa: Ten to six. Prabhupāda: No. Why ten to six? At least fifteen to six. Italian Man (1): How long you both will be here. I have to go today. [break] *Prabhupāda: The whole Sāma*-veda is music. Gāyanti yana-sāmagāḥ. Sāma-veda is full of music. The musical sounds, sa re ga ma pa da, this is from Sāma-veda. Yes. Italian Man (1): Is it possible to obtain technical materials of theorems, the way of combining notes to make music for Hare Kṛṣṇa and... Prabhupāda: These are the symbolic, sa re ga ma, sarad ṛṣi garbha, like that. Different sounds. (end) Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: ...but in different ways. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha... Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. So proportionately they realize the Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa in a different way. But He advises that "Why don't you take the direct way?" Therefore he says at the last chapter, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], "Directly become Kṛṣṇa conscious." Indian man (1): That doesn't need any pūjā then. Just take His śaraṇa and everything will be okay? Prabhupāda: No. That śaraṇa means... That includes... That is bhakti. Indian man (1): Even a tulasī dala and a little water is not necessary? Prabhupāda: No necessary, necessary, necessary because mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is the path of bhakti. It is also confirmed, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Indian man (1): Bhakti is in the mind, in the heart. Prabhupāda: No, not in the mind. No, no. Bhakti is in the heart, but there must be... Just like if you have got love for me in the heart, it must be demonstrated. Just like a husband and wife. The wife is says, "Now we are married and I have got love for you. Let me remain here. You go to your home." The bridegroom comes, "Now we are married and I love you, you love me. You go home, I remain here." Is that very good proposal? Indian man (1): No, but this... *Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. (laughing) "I have got bhakti, but I don't do anything for You. You go home." So that is not bhakti. Bhakti must be exhibited by activity. That is the definition of bhakti. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. So these are the nine different ways of expressing bhakti. First thing is śravaṇam. Śravaṇam. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ, chanting and hearing. Of whom? Of Viṣṇu. Śravaṇam kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. Not of any other one. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say that "We can chant anyone's name, either I chant of any demigod's name or any name." Indian man (1): But does He not say that "Whatever or whoever does it, it comes to Me." *Prabhupāda: That is avidhi*-pūrvakam. That is said, avidhi-pūrvakam, "Not in order." Indian man (1): Why do we prefer pāda and not the head or the hands? What is the rationale? Prabhupāda: That is impudency. That is impudency. The worship of the Deity should begin from the leg, from the feet. That is respect. Just like my disciples offer respect and touches my feet, not my head. That is impudency. You cannot touch head. Head is touched when I give him, "All right, be blessed." I shall touch his head, and he shall touch my feet. This is the process. You cannot touch the superior head. That is impudency. You cannot jump over like that. Indian man (1): It's a part of the body. It is only a... *Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that is the system. That is the system. You should begin. That... That is described in the Bhāgavatam. The First and Second Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam are the two legs of Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. These professional reciters, they read Bhāgavata. They jump over immediately to the face. The Tenth Canto is described as the face of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot go immediately to the head. You must begin from the feet. First Canto, Second Canto. Therefore there are nine cantos, and then Tenth Canto. And the Kṛṣṇa's rasa dance, that is the smiling of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot ask the superior to take the facility of his smiling. Smiling will be when he is pleased. The difficulty is that the Māyāvādī philosophy, they do not accept the form of the Lord. And they do not know how to behave with the form. Of course, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's face and Kṛṣṇa's feet. There is no difference. But still, the system must be followed. Pāda-sevanam. It is very important verse. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. When one has heard, when one has properly chanted, he has little experience of the transcendental form of the Lord, then his service beginning. Just like I engage one servant. So gradually he is given service. "First of all this, first of all that, then..." Again and again, again, again. The same example can be given, that the husband and wife. Formerly, when I was married, my wife was eleven years old. So (laughing) an eleven years old girl and I was at the same time twenty-one, twenty-two. One day I captured her hand. She began to cry. A little girl, you see? So gradually, gradually. I know... When my brother-in-law, sister's husband, used to come... In the beginning, the girls were very... My sisters were same age. So they would meet the husband, offering a little pan or little sandeśa. [break] ...after this. Then niṣṭhā. Then he has got a firm conviction that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and my duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is called niṣṭhā. Then ruci. Then he increases taste. He cannot go out. He cannot go out of this jurisdiction. Just like these boys, they have come from Europe, America. They are attached. Otherwise I am not giving them bribe. I have no money. Why they are attached to serve me any way? If I say that "You die," he will die. Why this attachment? This is development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ruci, aśakti, tato bhāva. Then bhāva. Bhāva means Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully developed. Then love. Then love. Love is actually exhibited. Then "Let me serve Kṛṣṇa in this way, in that way, that way, that way." You see? Fully engaged. This is the process. You cannot say that "Let my love be stagnant in my heart. There is no exhibition." No. There must be exhibition. That is the symptom of love. Otherwise why Rūpa Gosvāmī resigned from his ministership? He was a devotee from the very beginning. He is nitya-siddha, eternal devotee. But he gave up everything. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍali-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat. Rūpa Gosvāmī. About Rūpa Gosvāmī and all the Gosvāmīs, this is described that tyaktvā tūrṇam aśesa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ. They were ministers. Their associates were big, big personalities, maṇḍala-pati. Big, big leaders. Maṇḍala-pati means big, big leaders. Just like in Indian villages, still there is one man, chief man, he is called maṇḍala. Or there are many maṇḍalas, and there is one head, maṇḍala-pati. So tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ. He was meeting with big, big zamindars, big, big leaders, big, big... Because he was minister. So he gave up all this association. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala. Not one, two, but many, he gave up. "What is the value of this association? What is the value? They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious." So gave up. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat. "What is the value of these things?" Tuccha-vat. Bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Just to show favor to the mass of people he became a mendicant. Dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā. Just like Gandhi also did that. Although he was the greatest leader, he was living like a mendicant, one loincloth. That's all. Maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Then how he managed? Just like we have seen practically in the life of C.R. Das. He was living very luxuriously. You know, C.R. Das. Indian man (1): I know. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And he was earning fifty*-thousand rupees at that time, fifty years ago. What is the value, just see. He was earning and spending like anything, lavishly, and he was so bad associated that wine and woman was his paraphernalia. That's all. As soon as there will be case engaged the first order is that "You have to supply so many cases of wine and so many batches of prostitute." That was C.R. Dasa's condition, first condition. In the Mopaceel(?) court when he would be invited to plead, the first condition is this. Then his fees. So in this way he was living. But he gave up. On Congress Movement he gave up everything practiced, but he died within one year. Because he was living so luxuriously, all of a sudden he became a renouncer, he could not tolerate that. He died. Within one year he died. So therefore these ministers, they gave up all this luxurious life, became a mendicant. The question is how they lived? Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna kan... Then gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtādhi-laharī-kallola-magnau sadā: They were fully absorbed in the thought of how Kṛṣṇa, and His pastimes with His gopīs. He was always absorbed. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. This is exhibition. When one becomes ecstatic, "Oh, now I have to do something for Kṛṣṇa," then he renounces everything. Only Kṛṣṇa. Only Kṛṣṇa's business. That is the test. That is the test. What is the use of spiritual advancement? Spiritual advancement means these material things given up. That is spiritual advancement. That is... The example is given, bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavoḥ viraktir anyatra syāt. As soon as one develops real bhakti, he will be averse to all these material things. That is the first sign. "No more these things." Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. Just like if you are hungry and if you are given some food, if you are satisfied, then the same food will be denied by you. "No, no, no. I don't want anymore." Full satisfaction. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. When he fully became perfect and Nārāyaṇa was present before him, He asked him, "What benediction you want? You take." He said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi: "Simply by seeing You, by Your presence, I am fully satisfied. No more benediction. I don't want any benediction." This is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt. [break] ...ca lābha-santuṣṭau. No more demand. "Whatever by Kṛṣṇa's grace comes, that's all right. And not comes, it doesn't matter." The other śloka also, nirāśī, That is bhakti. Otherwise how one can be satisfied in any condition of life unless there is bhakti? That is the test. The test is that he has got something. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ. If he actually achieves Kṛṣṇa, then he does not think that anything better than this. That I see amongst these Europeans and American boys and girls. They have seen it, that "It is better than our so-called material life." Therefore they have been able to give up. Just like this boy Girirāja, he is very rich man's son. His father gave him a special car. His father is a big lawyer in Chicago. So he gave up everything. Now he is begging daily, although he is earning at least fifty-thousand rupees per month. But he has no... He is just like beggar. He doesn't care for his father. There are many like this. Bhaktiḥ pareṣānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. These are the test. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] ...devotee. Then all the good qualities will be manifested in his person. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ mano-rathena asato dhavato bahiḥ. And if one is not a perfect devotee of Kṛṣṇa, of Hari, then he cannot possess any mahad-guṇa. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Why? Mano-rathena: "He is simply hovering in the mental plane." He is not fixed up. Therefore asato dhavato bahiḥ. Then he will have to do something which is asat. Asato maṁ sad gama. That is the Vedic... "Don't remain in the asat; *just make progress to the sat." That is wanted. That cannot be done unless one is fully situated in unalloyed devotional service of the Lord. That is not possible. One must go to the asat, because he is hovering on the mental plane. Mental plane is not secure. Anyone who is in mental plane, he may fall down at any moment. So we have to transcend the mental plane. Intellectual plane. Jñana*-karmady-anavṛtam. Indian man (1): ...exist? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Indian man (1): Have you seen? Prabhupāda: And you have not seen so many things. Does it mean that does not exist? You are researching. You have not seen. As a scientist... Indian man (1): I have heard lots of ghost stories, but... *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not stories. We are hearing from Bhāgavata. It is authority. We are not hearing the stories of a third*-class man. We are hearing from Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva... Indian man (1): But you see, up till now, in my long life of eighty years... *Prabhupāda: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that. So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyāsadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyāsa, full of all knowledge, and Bhāgavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity is subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. [break] Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedānta*-sūtra, śāstra cakṣuṣā. Indian man (1): But it should be proved. Prabhupāda: It is true because it is spoken by Vyāsadeva. How you say it is false? You cannot say that. That is blasphemy. Indian man (1): In olden days there used to be the ghosts and all these things, but now that is gradually... Prabhupāda: But gradually... That does not mean you have improved very much. Because you do not believe in the ghost... Indian man (1): Our mental condition has improved. *Prabhupāda: No, that does not mean... There are ghosts. Ghost means subtle life. It is not gross. So people know and has got some idea of the ghost, but they have no descriptive idea. Here is a descriptive idea. That is śāstra. Just like less than the śūdras, it is called pañcamas. How many pañcamas are there, that is described in the Bhāgavata. Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanaḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. That is śāstra. Gives full explanation, full knowledge. Śāstra cakṣuṣā. We have to accept through the śāstra. Not that "Because I have not seen, therefore it is false." No. Vyāsadeva has no business to tell you something false. Otherwise he would not have been accepted as the supreme guru by all the sampradāyas. You cannot defy Vyāsadeva. He is saying, you have to accept. "I have seen. I have no experience," that doesn't matter. So many things you do not know. Just like a child has no experience what is the other side of the sea. Does it mean that there is nothing? A child may say like that, but a person who has visited the Arabian countries and others, "Oh no, no, no. There are so many things." So experience should be taken from a person who has got real experience. Not that "Because I cannot see, it is void." That is not experience. Girirāja: Do ghosts refer to categories of ghosts or particular famous? These names... Prabhupāda: Yes, categories. Yes. There are so many. Just like human beings. Human beings. There are Americans, Indians and Africans and so many, so... One knows that human being, and one knows in descriptive way. So whose knowledge is perfect? Girirāja: Descriptive. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is descriptive. Girirāja: (reading) "And similar other evil spirits will cause persons to forget..." Prabhupāda: Evil spirit everyone believes, every country. In London there are so many ghosts. When I was in John Lennon's house, so they complained, "In this one house, every night a ghost comes." You see? So I advised them "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. It will go away." Then it actually so happened. Yaśomatīnandana: In many of our temple buildings also... *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have got experience. In our Calcutta house, there was ghost. In Lucknow when I started that laboratory in Mr. Bhattacarya's house in Vat*-nagara(?), there was a ghost. I have practical experience. My servant... Indian man (1): I have heard a few cases. You see. I was reported that they see in that house there was ghost, and he used to put clothes to fire and they have to run for water to extinguish it. Then I went and examined. He was a friend of mine. Then I ultimately detected that his own wife got hysterical and used to do all those things. Prabhupāda: No, that is also possible. But... Indian man (1): You see? So I discovered that there is no ghost, and I explained to them... *Prabhupāda: No, that is also possible. Sometimes we are misled. But ghosts, in every country, there are so many books, and especially it is mentioned in the Vedic literature also. Bhūta*-preta-yoni. Bhūta-preta-yoni. That is described. Out of many forms of life, these bhūta-preta-yonis is also. Nana-yoni. Nana-yoni. There are different sources of birth. So bhūta-preta-yoni is also mentioned there, species of life. [break] Bhūta-preta is mentioned. Indian Man (2): Kṛṣṇa says, bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. [break] Girirāja: "...for other evil spirits who cause persons to forget their own existence and give trouble to the life air and the senses. Sometimes they appear in dreams and cause much perturbation. Sometimes they appear as old women and suck the blood of small children. But all such ghosts and evil spirits cannot remain where there is chanting of the holy name of God." Prabhupāda: That's it. [break] ...Viṣṇu. That is the injunction. Of Viṣṇu. In the Pañjikā, you will find in the Bengali Pañjikā, when there is some auspicious sign, they have recommended, "Chant the name of Viṣṇu." Have you seen in the Pañjikā? Yes. [break] Girirāja: "...and persons who are still following the Vedic ways, especially householders, keep at least one dozen cows and worship the Deity of Lord Viṣṇu..." [break] *Prabhupāda: In Indian villages-I have seen in Bengal*-they keep cows, and they have got Viṣṇu śilā, especially in the house of a brāhmaṇa, all high caste (?). Yes. [break] Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was a demon, but he was never afraid of Him. He was challenging, "Oh, my father..." He never said, "Father." He said, asura-varya: "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye asura-varya dehinām. When his father asked him, "My dear Prahlāda..." After all, he was child. "What you have learned best?" So he said, tat sādhu manye asura-varya. He is addressing his father, asura-varya, "the best of the demons." Tat sādhu manye: "I consider it very nice thing." Tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehinām. Dr. Patel: So you think we are demons also. Prabhupāda: No. (lots of laughter) Demons would not come daily to see Kṛṣṇa's ārati. That they'll not. That they'll not. No. I say that... Dr. Patel: Tomorrow we are going to walk all the distance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I say that we devotees, we are not afraid even of demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Asad*-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. He asked the son, "What you have learned, the best thing, in school?" He said, "My dear asura-varya," not father, "My dear best of the demons, I think this is the best thing." "What is that?" "Now, these people," sadā samudvigna-dhiyām, "always anxious, full of anxiety..." Why? Asad-grahāt: "Because they accepted this material world as all in all." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt: "On account of their accepting this material world as everything, therefore they are full of anxiety. Now, to get out of this anxiety, so-hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam-ātma-pātaṁ, suicidal place, gṛha, household life, they should give up." Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam. "And then what you will do?" "Oh." vanaṁ gato: "He should give up and go to the forest." "And then?" Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta: [SB 7.5.5] "And take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. I understand this is the best thing." And his father become more angry. "What this rascal is speaking?" like that. (laughing) (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's all right? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. [break] Girirāja: "...all the cowherd men who went to Mathurā to pay tax returned home and were struck with wonder at seeing the gigantic dead body of Pūtanā." [break] Prabhupāda: Here is description of Pūtanā, twelve miles. Big gigantic body. And nobody has seen such gigantic body. But it is described in the *Bhāgavatam*. [break] ...Mahārāja was so simple, village man, that he accepted Vasudeva, a great mystic. Hare Kṛṣṇa. A devotee says that "I prefer to become a dog in the house of a devotee." Lilavati: What is that prayer in Bengali? Prabhupāda: That is in Bengali. [break] ...tomara kukkura, bhuliya janaha more. [break] Girirāja: "...all the residents of Vraja cut the gigantic body of Pūtanā into pieces and piled it up with wood for burning." [break] Prabhupāda: Because she was killed by Kṛṣṇa, the whole body has become sanctified. So when the body was burned, there was good aroma. [break] Girirāja: "...aroma was due to her being killed by Kṛṣṇa." [break] Prabhupāda: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. [break] Girirāja: "...violent and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brāhmaṇas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless." *Prabhupāda: [break] ...social divisions. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology-then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Therefore there must be a brahminical class. Indian Man (2): Selfless class. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. [break] ...Kali*-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. [break] ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. [break] Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is the process. If you don't perform yajña, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food products. And if there is no food products, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy? And that has happened. There is no food. Simply talks, in the assembly, in the conference, in the meeting. But there is no food. Food is selling at four rupees a kilo. Where is yajña? [break] "...need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of yajña," or "Kick aside all these things. Simply make śūdras." Now, how you will be happy? There is no food, there is no cloth, there is no shelter. That's all. Indian man (1): But they have provided you with motorcars and aeroplanes to go across the sea, reach America, France, within a few hours. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also credit. Because they have done something... Indian man (1): Something to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, yes. That is our mercy, that we take advantage of their creation to bless them. We don't require all these things, but we take the advantage: "Because he has done something, let us take it." Just like we are using the microphone. So we don't require any microphone, but because he has created, that is the proper utilization. Not for sense gratification, cinema song. That is not required. Indian man (1): Cinema can be used for education. *Prabhupāda: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta*-vairāgyam ucyate. Therefore we are "lessoning" people that "Whatever you have done is rotten. Utilize for Kṛṣṇa." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these. Indian man (1): So for improving our morality. Prabhupāda: Yes, that "Everything, what you have done, it is all right. Utilize for saṅkīrtana yajña." Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa... Rūpa Gosvāmī has recommended that Indian man (1): You spread it like... *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] We also say that "You take advantage of this, and also produce sufficient food grains so that people may not starve." Parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Unless there is sufficient grain... People are giving more stress how to produce machine, but they are not giving any stress how to produce foodstuff. So many land are lying vacant. You go in India. So many lands. Not only in India. In other countries also. In England also we have seen. They are not taking care. Because it is very troublesome to put... "Better start a factory and get money easily." Indian man (1): They are now thinking about it. "Green revolution." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] So much land is lying vacant. They could utilize for food grains. No. They do not do it. [break] ...they have been withdrawn from the villages to work in the city, in the factories, and the lands are lying vacant. [break] Mahimā siddhi, to become heavier. Animā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti, siddhi. There are eight kinds of yoga*-siddhis. So those who are yoga siddha... Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. He became so heavy. [break] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. [break] ...aeroplane, it comes gradually, there is no crashing, but if it drops all of a sudden, then it is crashed. So this Tṛṇāvartāsura could not do that. He felt so heavy, fell down. Girirāja: "He hit the stone ground and his limbs were smashed. His body became visible to all the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. When the gopīs..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the performances of all austerities. One can get the result of all austerities simply by serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Girirāja: "...made charities and performed many welfare activities for the public, such as growing banyan trees and excavating wells. As a result of these pious activities, we have got back our child." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...very nice building. And one day death will come, "Oh, what is this?" Finish now. Mṛtyuḥ sarva*-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. And as soon as death comes, all this construction becomes ah, finished. You have to begin another chapter, either as human being or as bird or cats and dogs or anything. That is another thing. But they do not know this. They are thinking that "This construction work will save me." Girirāja: "Now he has come back to enliven his relatives. After observing such..." Prabhupāda: So our policy is that if you want to construct, if you have got the tendency, so you construct for Kṛṣṇa. That will be service. Construct a temple for Kṛṣṇa. So that service will be taken into account. Similarly, when we use this motorcar or aeroplane, so in the same purpose... Now they have done this, let it be engaged in Kṛṣṇa conscious service. So one who has manufactured it, he will be benefited, and others will be benefited. Girirāja: "After observing such wonderful happenings, Nanda Mahārāja began to think of the words of Vasudeva again and again." [break] Prabhupāda: He was a great charmer. Yes. Simple, simple life, village life. They were all... Vasudeva said all these things. Vasudeva is kṣatriya. From the political eyesight, he predicted that "This may happen," but he, as a vaiśya, simple agriculturist, he thought that "Oh, Vasudeva is so, foreseer." [break] Girirāja: Simplicity is not considered a bad quality? *Prabhupāda: No, no. For him it is all right. And anyone, sva*-dharma... He is a vaiśya, He should believe like that. A politician should act like that, that... para-dharmabhāvaḥ. One should not imitate. Just like a physician is operating. I should not imitate, to take the knife and operate. That is not my business. Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was once nursing..." Prabhupāda: But one thing is that Vasudeva was also thinking of Kṛṣṇa and he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. As a simple agriculturist, he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And Vasudeva also, when he was asking him, "Go and take care of your children there," that was thinking of Kṛṣṇa. If the thinking of Kṛṣṇa is there, then either kṣatriya or vaiśya or brāhmaṇa, it doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same benefit. Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was nursing her child and patting Him with great affection, there streamed a profuse supply of milk from her breast, and when she opened the mouth of the child with her fingers, she suddenly saw the universal manifestation within His mouth." [break] Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa here?" And died. He died. "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And died immediately. He said his mother, "Mother, you chant Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," because he has learned this. So after hearing, she inquired, "Is your Kṛṣṇa here?" And died. So I told him, "You have done the best service to your mother." (end) Morning Walk -- April 13, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: All the leaders. Indian Man (1): Puru bhagata. Prabhupāda: No, not puru bhag. Pura, yes, purabhaga, for welfare. By his advice... Just like Gargamuni is called for the advice, future of the child. Indian Man (1): (Sanskrit) *Prabhupāda: Ah, hita*-kārtṛkā(?) [break] ...vacate his chair to receive a brāhmaṇa, a purohita. Just like Sudāmā Vipra went Dvārakā. He was poor man, but he was brāhmaṇa. Immediately Kṛṣṇa left His, offered His chair. Yes. And Rukmiṇī began to fan him. So much respect. Where is that respectful person? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: He received Gargamuni with the feeling of one who is worshiping God or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He offered him a nice sitting place and when he sat down Nanda Mahārāja offered him a warm reception." *Prabhupāda: [break] ...presence of a brāhmaṇa, of a sannyāsī, in the household, in the house of a householder, means to enlighten. Mahad*-vicalanaṁ nṛnām gṛhinām gṛhacet dīna-cetasām. The gṛhasthas, they are very cripple-minded. They are satisfied with the family, and they do not know that anything else to do. Therefore it is the duty of the sannyāsī and the brāhmaṇas to go to the householder's home and enlighten them spiritually. Therefore purohita. Go on. [break] ...pura. Purasara means "in the front", and hita means welfare. So one who conducts welfare of the householder. Guru-purohita. Every family must have guru and purohita for spiritual advancement. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Indian Man (1): For all the vices... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] *Girirāja: "In household duties and are forgetting our real duty of self*-realization." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...gṛha-medhinām. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. Those who are gṛhamedhis and do not know anything else except maintaining the family, they are called gṛhamedhi. And those who cultivating spiritual consciousness in gṛhastha life with family and children, they are called gṛhasthas. That is the difference between gṛhamedhi and gṛhastha. So gṛhamedhi, they have no aim of life, of self-realization. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Nṛnāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ. [break] ...self-realization. Nṛnāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2], who cannot see what is the ātma-tattvam, what is the path of self-realization. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhinām. Therefore it is the duty of the sannyāsī... Sannyāsī does not mean that he will beg for fulfilling his hungry belly. Sannyāsī means he must enlighten-that is sannyāsī*-in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...rājendra nṛnaṁ santi sahasrasaḥ apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. This is the Sukadeva Gosvāmī says that śrotavyādīni rājendra [SB 2.1.2], subject matter for hearing nrnam, for the human being, nṛnāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, thousands of... Just like in the newspaper in the morning, thousands of varieties of news they will attend, and ask them to attend the maṅgala ārati for self-realization, "No, that is not... You are disturbing, nonsense." This is gṛhamedhi. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhinām. Vedic culture is that one must rise early in the morning. And even Kṛṣṇa in His gṛhastha life, immediately He rose up. Rukmiṇī was disturbed because womanly nature, and again immediately taking bath, meditation. This is Vedic culture. And sleeping up to seven and then unless takes bed tea, without washing teeth, and he is advanced. You see. And if one is asked to "Rise early in the morning and wash yourself, take your bathing and attend maṅgala ārati." "Oh, this is old way, bhajana nonsense." You see. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhinām. Girirāja: "Actually a saintly person or a brāhmaṇa has no business visiting householders who are busy in the matter of dollars and cents." [break] Prabhupāda: But that is now neglected. Dr. Patel: So we have come. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Dr. Patel: You came very early. [break] Prabhupāda: ...guru more mūrkha dekhi karilā śāśana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. Dr. Patel: Now I own it. Prabhupāda: It is better to remain a fool. That is very progressive. Indian Man (2): Fools are always ready, receptive. [break] Prabhupāda: "I am fool, I must receive." That... These Sikh section. The Sikh means you always learn. Sikh, Śikṣa. Go on. [break] Girirāja: "...one who is expert in the knowledge of the Supreme." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. Brahma jānatīti brāhmaṇa. Dr. Patel: Brahma jānatīti brāhmaṇo 'ham. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-vidān śreṣṭha, the best of the... Just like dvija-śreṣṭha, another name. Dr. Patel: Not only born in brāhmaṇa families, they are not brāhmaṇas. [break] Prabhupāda: Nanda Mahārāja did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: When did he know that He, Kṛṣṇa was really the son of Devakī? I think after the... just now only. Prabhupāda: Just now only. He is disclosing. He has given... [break] ...bahūni me janmāny atītāni tava cārjuna. Same thing. "I had many, many births before." That is confirmed here. Girirāja: "Just as demigods are always protected by Lord Viṣṇu, so the devotees of your child will always be protected by Nārāyaṇa." [break] Prabhupāda: ...accept that process. [break] ...cation. [break] Without any advertisement, without any..., how one can stop this? Indian Man (2): It is not possible. [break] Girirāja: "The child is very clever. After breaking the pot He has left the place fearing punishment. After she sought all over she found a big wooden grinding mortar kept upside down, and she found her son sitting on it. He was taking butter which was hanging from the ceiling on a swing and was feeding it to the monkeys." (continues reading from *Kṛṣṇa Book*; rest of tape is unintelligible) (end) Morning Walk -- April 14, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: Find out wine and woman. That's all. Girirāja: (reading) "While they were thus enjoying themselves..." Prabhupāda: But in America I don't think there is such thing. Dr. Patel: These nightclubs and all these things is of this type. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: I have not seen a single nightclub though I studied in England for two years. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Nārada, but still they are sinful. Such a great personality like Nārada, they had seen, but still they are sinful. Go on. Girirāja: "As such, the great sage Nārada considered that because the demigods Nalakūvara and Maṇigrīva were so infatuated by false prestige, they should be put in a condition of life devoid of opulence." [break] Prabhupāda: ...bench, standing. The small children, they are punished, "Stand up on the bench." It is like that. Dr. Patel: All vegetables are in tamas, in tamas... Prabhupāda: No. Some of them, fruitful, those trees for supplying nice fruits, nice flowers, they are in the goodness. Everywhere the three qualities are working. Yaśomatīnandana: There may be dog in the mode of goodness? *Prabhupāda: No, dog is an animal. He is in the ignorance. But the cow is in goodness. Sattva*-raja-tamo. Dr. Patel: Horse is in rajas. Prabhupāda: Horse, lions. The monkey is in tamas. Dr. Patel: And animal is in tamas and rajas... Prabhupāda: Everything, there are three qualities, everywhere. Dr. Patel: More rajas is in monkeys because they are more active. [break] *Prabhupāda: They are researching for something which is useless. Therefore tamas. Rajas*-tamo-bhavaḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. This is the effect of rajas tamas: kāma and lobha, greedy and always hankering after. Dr. Patel: But sometimes real scientists speak out the truth. [break] Prabhupāda: Don't give pain to others. Others, painful condition. If you feel pain by certain condition, that is... Dr. Patel: Ātmavat sarva bhūteṣu. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Girirāja: "Generally it is seen that one who has risen from a poverty*-stricken life and becomes wealthy creates some charitable institution at the end of his life..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...goes to market and gets some of this... What is called, bhūta bhūta? Yaśomatīnandana: Corns. Prabhupāda: Corns. [break] Dr. Patel: That is why I say that rasanā (tongue) is not so strong as śiṣṇa (genital). Prabhupāda: No, if you do not allow rasanā to enjoy much, śiṣṇa will be subdued. Dr. Patel: But still, I mean personally, for myself, I don't have any taste for any food. In fact I have been taking all the food together just like the sannyāsīs and I don't have any taste. But still I have from within me I don't find that form of sex carrying out even though I am a scientist. Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to say that "Sex life is so strong that even if I see one wooden female form I become excited." Dr. Patel: I feel the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is not unnatural. Caitanya Mahāprabhu tells this because this cannot be avoided. But by knowledge it can be avoided. Dr. Patel: We were talking the same thing. Prabhupāda: Yes, by knowledge. Yes. But "Because I am excited, therefore I have to do this," that is not good. Dr. Patel: But then I found out the solution for this. As soon as you feel excitement... [break] Then you have nothing to do with it. Prabhupāda: Therefore knowledge. Dr. Patel: That I have started practicing this for some time. And I feel a great solace in that. Prabhupāda: That has been recommended by Śaṅkarācārya, that "Why you are attracted by these forms? It is only a combination of flesh and marrow. That's all." Dr. Patel: No, but who is attracted? The indriya is attracted. I am beyond indriya. That also you think. [break] Prabhupāda: So long we are associated... The example I have given many times, that I am sitting on a car, and the car there is accident. I am not car. Still, I am excited, "Oh, my car is lost. Why you have struck my car?" There is so much quarrel. But it is a fact, he knows that "I am not the car." That is called abhiniveśa. Dr. Patel: Wrong orientation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, matṛvat para*-dareṣu: "Always think of other's wife as mother." Dr. Patel: Mātṛvat... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...also have to die. Dr. Patel: We die, don't mind, but we want others to die as Muslims. We want to die them as Hindus. [break] ...Supersonic sound. Prabhupāda: Supersonic, what is that? Any circumstance, the ruling power is nature. He cannot avoid that. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. [break] ...more their senses are turbulent. This is also... Therefore there is one tapasā brahmacāryena [SB 6.1.13] and the word anaśana, anaśana, "not eating." Eating should be reduced. Dr. Patel: Tapasā brahmacāryena... [break] Prabhupāda: ...yamena damena. There are so many. Out of that, there is one, anasana, not eating. Yes. [break] Girirāja: "...not very turbulent, he cannot become violent." [break] Prabhupāda: ...yuktāhāra. Not to eat more, not to eat less. That is required. [break] ...when I was alone in Baroda, I was making my customers for Back to Godhead. So I entered one gentleman's house and from the porch he was, "Don't come! Don't come! Don't come!" (laughs) Immediately. Dr. Patel: Baroda was a very small place then. [break] Prabhupāda: ...if I go to place, jataji bhikṣā dijiye, so everyone will be compassionate. And it is our duty, at least in Vedic civilization, that when a sannyāsī comes he is received. Aiye, mahārāja, betiye. Still. Still in the villages they do that. Just like it is mentioned in the śāstra that brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs should be taken as the sons of the society. Dr. Patel: In Poona, even today in Poona... [break] Prabhupāda: They are trained like that, very good. [break] It is compulsory that every man should become a mendicant for some time. Indian Man (1): They must have experience of that. [break] Prabhupāda: ...there is a temple, Tarakeśvara, in Hoogli district. So Lord Śiva... So people, I mean to say, pray that "If my this disease is cured or if I get this victory, I shall become a sannyāsī for a month." (laughs) So that system is going on. They become sannyāsīs for one month. There are hundreds and thousands. Dr. Patel: They... [break] Prabhupāda: This is called "one month sannyāsī." That is not mentioned in the śāstra, but it has come into custom. [break] ...and if he returns, he is called vāntāśī, yes, "eating the vomit." Indian Man (1): Before giving sannyāsa the teacher will take proper care that his mind is already peaceful and all... [break] Prabhupāda: ...obeisances, we take out our shoes. That is a system. Indian Man (1): Even the hat... Prabhupāda: Hat, yes. [break] ...naked is not civilization. It is not civilization. Dr. Patel: That means practice tapas right from the beginning of your days... [break] Prabhupāda: The body is changed. *Dr. Patel: It's not icchā*-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena? [break] Prabhupāda: That past life, because the body is changed, you forget. Dr. Patel: Some of the people... Prabhupāda: Some of the... Dr. Patel: I don't know how it is, it is difficult to explain. Prabhupāda: That is special. That is special. Dr. Patel: There is a big research going on in the parapsychology, here in India and America. Prabhupāda: No, it is by the grace of God one can remember about his past life. [break] ...practical experience. In our family, my mother's eldest sister, her son of a previous birth came to see her. Old man, very old man. [break] This is called illusion. Dr. Patel: All relations of the son, child, wife, husband, all these are of the... [break] Prabhupāda: ...just like in the river sometimes several straws will meet together. And again they disperse. [break] We get our body and mix together, and again we are dispersed by the waves of time. [break] ...at the end we shall see Kṛṣṇa. [break] Girirāja: "...the original Personality of Godhead, master of all mystic powers, learned brāhmaṇas know very well that this cosmic manifestation is an expansion of Your potency." [break] Prabhupāda: ...and Nalakuvara, but He remained bound up. Indian Man (1): About His līlā? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Yaśodāmāyī is more powerful than Kṛṣṇa. Indian Man (1): No, devotees are more powerful always. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Just see. He liberated Nalakuvera, but He remained bound up by the rope of Yaśodāmāyī. [break] ...children. [break] ...some conjugal love. Dr. Patel: Then he became eight years old. How could any gopī have conjugal love with a boy of seven or eight years? Indian Man (1): Spiritual love. Prabhupāda: That is not this love. That is a different love. *Dr. Patel: Conjugal love is mādhurya*-rāsa. *Prabhupāda: Mādhurya*-rāsa, yes... [break] eat along with my father. Unless I come, father will not... Dr. Patel: But you were brought up in a big city, but I was brought up in a small village. Actually... [break] Prabhupāda: The same. It doesn't matter whether it is in the village or town. Dr. Patel: In the village we eat more. We used to buy... (end) Morning Walk -- April 16, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...say that the cows are also being (indistinct) ...individuality, of the original calves and boys. And He expanded. That is... Read that portion. Dr. Patel: Not only that but His clothings and everything. Prabhupāda: Everything. Dr. Patel: Sticks, clothings, lunchbags and everything. Prabhupāda: Everything. This is God. Girirāja: "He expanded Himself to become exactly like the boys, who were of all different features, facial and bodily construction, and who were different in their clothing and ornaments and in their behavior and personal activities. In other words, everyone has different tastes." *Dr. Patel: Here I read about Him. (indistinct) From First Chapter of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...bhāva*-samanvitaḥ. What is that? Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā-bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. The bhajana is there... Dr. Patel: "You come in my bhāva, and then bhaja." Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāva is the previous condition of prema. [break] ...life there are so many varieties, temperature and focus of light, but actually, the heat and light is coming from the fire. So in spite of all varieties of degrees of heat and light, it is one because it is the energy of Kṛṣṇa. [break] Because original is taken away and he has to satisfy their mother, other the mothers will cry, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, my boy went with you. Where he is?" Dr. Patel: Boys and cows and calves and all... Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. This is Kṛṣṇa. [break] They are Śyāmasundara, but they are playing a different part in the face of their parents. Dr. Patel: You are the old man with the (indistinct) this and you are the young boy and you are the... [break] Prabhupāda: Her mother sent him to become a śūdra. So he had to correct it again, but he is fortunate enough that he has come forward to correct himself. That is... *Yaśomatī*-nandana: My question is Prabhupāda, that these boys and cows are viṣṇu-tattvas. They are not jīvas. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, viṣṇu*-tattva, certainly. That will be explained later on. They... *Dr. Patel: Even jīva*-tattva is part of viṣṇu-tattva. Everything comes from Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: No. [break] ...between viṣṇu*-tattva and jīva-tattva... Dr. Patel: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu*-tattva. They are viṣṇu-tattva. They are the spirit soul, they are varieties. Mamaivāṁśa. Just like aṁśa. Suppose if you break one brick, some fragments come out. All the fragments are not of the same size. There are different size. Similarly, although all the living entities are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, their constitution of impotence are different. [break] There are divisions, divisions, subdivisions. Yes. Dr. Patel: But final, the main group is this. Prabhupāda: [break] ...teṣv avasthitaḥ. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on. Girirāja: "The residents had no knowledge of what had happened. After entering the village Vṛndāvana, all the calves entered their respective cowsheds and the boys also went to their respective mothers and homes." [break] Prabhupāda: My younger sister, up to seven years she was sucking my mother's breast. Dr. Patel: We, as medical men, advise not to, I mean, allow the boys... Prabhupāda: She would not leave mother. I have seen it. Dr. Patel: One year is the maximum time we allow. And the Americans dogs don't allow them to suckle because they spoil their... [break] Prabhupāda: Baby's food. Dr. Patel: And in Australia they give breast to the children or they give baby food? Yes. They are near to us. Prabhupāda: Your girls are gradually becoming next (?) to America. Indian Man (1): Becoming anglicized, yes, Americanized. Prabhupāda: Advanced... Indian Man (1): Now there is the one world. There is no use of that. All are having the same epidemic. That is spread very widely. *Prabhupāda: And the medicine is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bhava*-auśādhi. Śrotriyaṁ mano-bhirama. Go on. Girirāja: "The mothers of the boys heard the vibrations of their flutes before their entrance and to receive them they came out of their homes with great..." [break] Prabhupāda: They took the position of Yaśodā, directly feeding. This is the unique position of Vṛndāvana. [break] ...yogamāyā. Dr. Patel: Yogamāyā samanvitaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā*-samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. So two māyā is working. Dr. Patel: Yogamāyā is the superior māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, for Kṛṣṇa, all māyās are the same. Just for engineer, the electricity is the same both in the refrigerator and the heater. For us we see different, that "This is hot and this is cold." [break] ...when you are freed from all these māyās. That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. [break] ...the sample of Kṛṣṇa's mercy...? Dr. Patel: (Hindi) *Prabhupāda: No, no. No, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhāgavata, yasyāham anugṛhṇāmi hariṣye tad*-dhanaṁ śanaiḥ [SB 10.88.8], that "This is my mercy. The first test is that I take away everything, what he possesses." Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, therefore people do not like to become Vaiṣṇava, actually. Yasyāham anughṛṇāmi. That is the first installment of his mercy. Yasyāham anughṛṇāmi hariṣye... You know this. It was questioned by Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Dr. Patel: Yes, I have gone through this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...a little doubtful that Kṛṣṇa is the Lakṣmī*-pati, Nārāyaṇa, and those who are devotees of Kṛṣṇa, they become poorer. And Lord Śiva, who has no even a residential house, he lives under the tree, and the devotees of Lord Śiva they become opulent. So what is the reason? So this was questioned by Mahārāja Yudhisthira to Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa first answered that yasyaham anughrnami harisye tad-dhanam sanaiḥ: "This is the first installment of My mercy." [break] Dr. Patel: ...*Mahābhārata*. I think produced by, in Baroda. Prabhupāda: I have got *Mahābhārata*. Not that published by the Gita Press. Dr. Patel: They are all, really they have made it... For forty years they collected all the books... Prabhupāda: Anyway, I have got this *Mahābhārata*. Dr. Patel: That is costing about three thousand rupees. (everyone talking) [break] But is it not animal food? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That's it. Prabhupāda: No, no, animal, mother's milk also animal food. Dr. Patel: That's right. Prabhupāda: Everything is animal... Dr. Patel: But that does not mean it is not animal. [break] Prabhupāda: ...tendency. Dr. Patel: But now the modern eggs, you see, they are not hatched out, and there is no life. Unfertilized. Prabhupāda: There also, there is life. There is life. Indian Man (2): Unfertilized, but then... [break] *Prabhupāda: She became widow at the age of eighteen years. So my father engaged her in worshiping Deity. My father was worshiping, and she was the assistant. Of course, she had two children by that time. Yes, go on. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is all attractive. So immediately they attracted the other cows, although they were not actual mother. [break] ...doctor in Calcutta, young man, he married the daughter of a very rich man. So his father*-in-law gave him a motorcar, so he advised... He was a businessman. He advised that "Even if you have no practice, you simply ride on this car and go around." Dr. Patel: (laughter) He's a typical Bengali. (Prabhupāda laughs) Prabhupāda: So actually, by his going round, he increased his practice. (Indians talking Hindi) *Prabhupāda: [break] ...between demigod. Demigods are also expansion, but that is separated expansion, separated expansion, vibhinnāṁśa. In the Varāha*-Purāṇa it is said, vibhinnāṁśa. And here, svāṁśa, personal expansion. [break] Indian Man (3): I have worked with men of international fame like Colonel De Gaulle, Colonel Acton, Colonel Knowles, but worldwide... [break] Prabhupāda: Because you do not accept the soul, medical science. Dr. Patel: Soul is already everywhere. But what do you say? Everywhere means only on the earth, not away from the earth, and then outer space. You want to say... Do you mean outer space also? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Sarvaga. Sarvaga means... Dr. Patel: But these boys have to be kept in those living bags, with saturation of oxygen, who have been to the moon. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...the statement in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catur: "Unless one is very, very extraordinarily intelligent, he cannot be a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." Svalpa-puṇya-vatāṁ rājan viśvāso naiva jāyate. Dr. Patel: Otherwise these modern researches would not have been brought into existence if there was no difference. Prabhupāda: No, that is their nature, to differ. That is the nature. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "He is not a muni if he does not differ with other muni." Dr. Patel: Yes, that's it. Muni does not speak. Maunam. [break] Prabhupāda: Why there is difference? [break] ...and Kṛṣṇa's power is compared. Brahmā's power is just like glowworm, and Kṛṣṇa's power is just like day sunlight. [break] The power displayed, they are of different degrees. That is the difference. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say everything is water. They give that example. But the sea water, the force of the sea water, and the water in a pot, small pot, the degrees of force are different. In England it is very common to say, "Lord Chelmsford. Lord Chelmsford," do you know? Dr. Patel: We used to call him Chelemfor. Prabhupāda: No. So Chelmsford is a place, is a village. But he is called Lord Chelmsford. He is personified. Like that. [break] Girirāja: There is one Lord Chelmsford or anyone else...? Dr. Patel: When his son becomes a Lord of Chelmsford and... Prabhupāda: Yes, continues, continues. It is... What is called? They create aristocratic family. One has to deposit certain amount of money to the government and then the family... Indian Man: Gets the title. Prabhupāda: Gets the title "Lord." And to maintain their prestige the government supplies the interest of the money. And the first son becomes the inheritor. So in this way the Lord family continues. [break] Girirāja: "...in the three qualities of material nature." *Prabhupāda: Therefore a man in any quality*-it doesn't matter whether he is in goodness or passion or ignorance-anyone can worship Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. So there is no restriction. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra... [SB 2.4.18]. Anyone is open to worship Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone. Dr. Patel: This scene and all those things showed to Brahmā was to teach him a sort of lesson to take out his ego from him. Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the purpose. It was not that Brahmā was degraded, but Kṛṣṇa is merciful upon Brahmā and Indra. Hm. Go on. *Girirāja: "Lord Viṣṇu, Brahmā also realized, was the reservoir of all truth, knowledge and bliss. He is the combination of three transcendental features, namely eternity, knowledge and bliss. He is the object of worship by the followers of the Upaniṣads. Brahmā realized that all the different forms of cows, boys and calves transformed into Viṣṇu forms were not transformed by a mysticism of the type that a yogi or demigod can display by specific powers invested in him. The cows, calves and boys transformed into viṣṇu*-mūrtis, or Viṣṇu forms, were not displays of viṣṇu-māyā, or Viṣṇu energy, but were Viṣṇu Himself. The respective qualifications of Viṣṇu and viṣṇu-māyā are just like fire and heat. In the heat there is..." [break] Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break] So you stop. You stop only. Prabhupāda: Give up, give up the result. *Dr. Patel: That is what the Bhagavad*-gītā says. [break] Prabhupāda: ...kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ,... Dr. Patel: Sa sannyāsī ca yogi ca. Prabhupāda: Go on. Girirāja: "The transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is perfect or so great that the impersonal followers of the *Upaniṣads* cannot..." [break] Prabhupāda: Sometimes we... Dr. Patel: First reading you don't mind following. Prabhupāda: Yes. So after all, we have got still the material body. Sometimes we get tired. That is also fortune. [break] That is the advantage of human life. You can check. Dr. Patel: Particular intelligence is given to human being? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: The elephant has got so much intelligence, they say, as good as human being. *Prabhupāda: Intelligence... Not only intelligence. Human life has got the discriminating power. Sad*-asat. (Indians speaking) [break] ...infected, how your medicine will be sold? [break] ...merchant, I will say like that. [break] Since we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then bahyābhyantaraṁ śuciḥ. We are... What is called? Prophylactic, prophylactic. (end) Morning Walk -- April 17, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...feverish. But these people, they take bhakti as a means of liberation. That is their mistake. Dr. Patel: That is their mistake. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: That is where we were quarreling very often. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have now made a conclusion not to fight. Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise he can become a Jamadagna. Kirtirāja: I know. Prabhupāda: You know Jamadagna? You know Jamadagna? Dr. Patel: Jamadagni. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Who asked Paraśurāma to fill his bowl up. Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say Jamadagna. Dr. Patel: Jamadagni. Prabhupāda: Means Jamadagni's son. Paraśurāma. Dr. Patel: Jamadagni, the Paraśurāma's son. Jamadagna is Paraśurāma, the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...being done in America because it is not to be done here. Here religion has become fanaticism and political degradation. It is not possible. Now see in our political paper how they are seriously doing and people taking seriously. Whatever program I give them, they are systematically doing. Here there is no assistance. [break] ...cry, "Oh, we are in, put in this condition, put in this..." Complain. But what is the remedy, we do not take. That is India's position. Mr. Kanunda(?), he's the son of late governor of Gujarat(?). He came to offer me a land in Bhuvaneśvara. So he said... He's the manager of the coal organization. Dr. Patel: Coal Corporation of India. Prabhupāda: Yes. He's the general manager. He told me that "Workers, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase price." Now, when the, it was private concern, they were managing. They were working very nicely. Now, since it has become government concern, they are not working. Dr. Patel: Same thing in... Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Dr. Patel: ...in nationalized banks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: If you go there, you have... [break] Prabhupāda: That is government, no responsibility. [break] ...kriyā hīnā. These governments are not... They are not reformed, and they have taken the post of government. Nobody can do(?). [break] ...today the political paper, Harmonist? Girirāja: I read the... Shall I read it now? *Prabhupāda: Yes, so that others may hear. [break] ...you simply present the card anywhere*-you get things. You don't require to pay. Then your bills will be paid by the bank. This is the system. [break] ...Bank of American card, in any American, bank of America, I can get one hundred to five hundred dollars immediately. I have got that card. [break] ...the respectable customers... Yes. [break] ...money, then you can squander it, and that is the idea. And you more spend money; then they manufacture consumer goods. That is the policy. [break] ...ṣad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: [Īśo mantra 1] "Don't use anything more than what is allotted to you." That's all. But they are creating artificial demand, and the demand is being paid for by artificial paper. The government is issuing: "This is five hundred pounds or five hundred rupees," but it is paper only. Actually it is cheating. But we are satisfied. [break] ...said, "In God we trust." That's all. "In God we trust." What is that? Devotee: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: They have written, "In God we trust"? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am giving you this paper*-I am cheating you-therefore I am "In God we trust." [break] And the best in the world. That is a fact. Dr. Patel: They have given, fathers, by their forefathers. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...street you'll find, both ways, boarding: generally cigarette, wine, and...? Dr. Patel: And the night clubs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Naked woman, that's all. Both sides it is there. They advertise. Here... In America, anywhere you deposit forty dollars. Next day you get everything. [break] ...they say, "This year it is now reduced." Mean "Criminality, let go on, but from the last year, this year it is now reduced." That's all. [break] "...are drinking. Therefore you cannot call me drunkard." This is the logic. [break] These rogues and thieves will increase. That is the law of nature. Men... (breaks) They have a fire(?). [break] ...took down. [break] ...police, they simply only note down. Dr. Patel: In America also, like here? Prabhupāda: That's all. My things were stolen from my apartment in the beginning, so I went to the police. They simply noted down. That's all. [break] ...you can narrate the incidents when the negro at San Francisco... Lilavati: Yes, we were... Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Kṣatriya, this is all finished. Now only śūdras and, little vaiśyas there are. Dr. Patel: No, here, here you have got also brāhmaṇas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: But they don't follow them. Nobody follows them. Prabhupāda: No... Dr. Patel: Many people. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Mr. Ford is going to be the president now. [break] Prabhupāda: ...of safety and security. During Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's reign there was no unnecessary disease and anxiety also. That is mentioned. You have read? [break] Some hundred years ago. When I went to Kashmir, so they said that "Here the law was if a thief was caught and proved he has stolen, his hands would be cut off." Dr. Patel: That is the law presently in Arabia. Indian Man: Nepal too. Nepal. *Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. [break] So at the present moment Indians means non*-Mohammedans. What he is, he does not know-but he is not Mohammedan. That's all. (laughter) Otherwise he has to be, go to Pakistan. Therefore he's non-Mohammedan. That's all. [break] In big, big cities you cannot safely walk. Here, India still, we lie down in the open air. That is not possible there. In Dallas, Dallas I wanted to lie down in the open air. "No, no, you cannot do that." Dr. Patel: In that way England is better. England is far better. Prabhupāda: No, no, England... England you cannot lie down on the open. No. Dr. Patel: No, no, but on the countryside you can pitch a tent... Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. It is very cold. Dr. Patel: No, no, not in... I mean in summer. Prabhupāda: Even in summer it is not possible. Girirāja: (reading:) "...cannot safely walk a city street or sleep without fear of burglars and the government has fallen far short of the actual standard of a legitimate administration." [break] Prabhupāda: We are criticizing strongly in our paper. [break] ...command a position. If you manufacture government like that, it will never be capable. Girirāja: "But it's said in all authentic, revealed scriptures, wherein it is declared that the purpose of civilized human life is to live together in peace and harmony so that everyone can advance progressively in spiritual life." [break] Prabhupāda: ...purpose of life. But they do not know what is the purpose of life. They have taken the idea of cats and dogs, simply sense gratification. Now, where, how there will be good government. [break] ...all leniency to the Mohammedans to get vote. That's a fact. [break] *Mahābhārata*, anywhere, or *Rāmāyaṇa*, you'll never find a woman is elected on the topmost post. Dr. Patel: And that was widow. Prabhupāda: No, woman is never, was made a king. That was... Now it has become a fashion. Dr. Patel: And the widow with all her virtues. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...days greatest politician. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja*-kuleṣu ca. So our present head of the state is both woman and diplomat. That's all. [break] Girirāja: "...pursuit of human culture are not possible. The government, by being weak and impotent, has thus failed to maintain the standard of civilized culture." Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Simply rogues. They want money. That's all. They do not want anything. *Dr. Patel: I think Rāma*-rājya was the real democracy. *Prabhupāda: Rāma*-rājya was not democracy. Dr. Patel: No, it was a sort of democracy because it happened that his wife, on seeing ordinary menials... Prabhupāda: Why king should be under any criticism? (breaks) There is a jalebi seller. He is the medium of bribing police. He has got ten lakhs of rupees, ordinary jalebi seller. *Girirāja: "Yet even in places where the police get good scores for solving crime and apprehending law*-breakers, the crime rate remains high." Prabhupāda: When we were children, there was a respectable gentleman, Mullick's family. He was agent of taking bribe on behalf of... [break] ...Los Angeles. The same thing I am talking. Dr. Patel: So you will have them, all the photos from here also. [break] *Prabhupāda: Anardhena nyāya*-rahitam: "If you have no money, then you'll never get justice." Dalmia, he was imprisoned for two years. Dr. Patel: He was never in the jail. I know. Prabhupāda: He was in the Delhi Hospital. [break] I am speaking so loudly real thing. Here you cannot. Immediately you'll be in the black book. [break] Girirāja: "...must go unpunished. This is itself the business of criminal and lawless men who have no knowledge what it means to protect the citizens under their charge." [break] Prabhupāda: Therefore it is rogues. So what is the value of that laws? The legislative assembly means a set of rogues, and if they legislate something, what is the value of that? [break] Caught like that, yes. Because people are becoming degraded, so they elected such degraded everything. [break] Shameless. The whole nation is asking that "You resign." "No." Such shameless. [break] ...that somebody was in the room, and the outsider says, "Who is in the room?" "No, no! I am not stealing!" (laughter) "No, no, I am not stealing." Girirāja: There's a saying that when you throw a stone in a pack of dogs, the one who is hit will scream. [break] *Prabhupāda: Others also, followers. These ordinary, so*-called Gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, in the outwardly, in religious dress, and inwardly they are committing so many sinful activities, they will become the dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana. So one Gosvāmī, he has taken very much objection to this writing, and he is making propaganda against me like anything. There was arrangement of reception. He stopped it. [break] That I have also written, that now, after finishing the sinful reaction, these monkeys and dogs will be liberated. That I have also written. [break] ...one has passed stool, during daytime, due to the sunshine, the upper side is dry. So if somebody says, "This side is better than the other side. The moist side is not so good. The dry side is good." [break] ...nation, you'll find (indistinct) gentlemen, but they do not know that these things are criminals. They think it is ordinary thing, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication. Dr. Patel: Natural. Prabhupāda: Yes. They say it is ordinary necessities. [break] Therefore we call mūḍhās. They do not know what is what. Dr. Patel: I think Abraham Lincoln was the best of the whole presidents. What is your opinion, Abraham Lincoln? Girirāja: Well, moist stool or dry... Prabhupāda: He gave the negroes freedom, Abraham Lincoln? Girirāja: Yes, emancipation. Dr. Patel: The Americans say he acted with negroes just we have acted with the aboriginals, the Āryans. What have we done with the poor aboriginals of India? Prabhupāda: We have... [break] "...one sect. Because we are sitting in Haridvar, and people will come here. And A.C. Bhaktivedanta, he is going." So... Dr. Patel: Bhaktivedanta has formed a canal to take the spiritual India. Prabhupāda: So they are now envious. [break] Abaddha karuṇā sindhu, katiya mohan, abaddha karuṇā sindhu, katiya mohan... That "All men, you take..." "Nityānanda has cut open the stagnant water, and now it is overflooded." Like that. Abaddha karuṇā sindhu... [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, Indian man (1): That is the purpose and duty (indistinct) of saints who have already realized...(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Another... That is said, Girirāja: "Nowhere in the Newsweek article is the quackery of these signs..." Prabhupāda: But they were very much respectful to me. On my door they are lying down and passing urine. As soon as I will come, "Come on. Come on. Come on, sir. Come on," respectful. They were very respectful. Hm. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...grudge because I am presenting Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of God. That is their grudge. That is the grudge of the all impersonalists. *Girirāja: "This allegation, however, betrays such a profound lack of knowledge that the so*-called swami sounds more like one who is learned at Hinduism at New York University than an authentic scholar of the Vedas." [break] "Supreme Brahman, the ultimate..." (end) Morning Walk -- April 18, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: One has to practice. It will take some time. [break] ...yuktena cetasā nānya*-gāminā. One has to practice. That means his determination is not yet fixed up. Because he is very rich, he is thinking that "This is all right." That is another defect of becoming very much rich. Bhogaiśvarya prasaktānāṁ tayā upahṛta-cetasām: [Bg. 2.44] "Those who are too much attached to this material enjoyment and..., by which his consciousness is bewildered..." All these defects are there because he is too much attached to material enjoyment. Why don't you give him dress if he has no dress. This is not good. You have not marked it? Girirāja: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then what is this? He's... Give him dress. [break] Give him lesson how to make tilaka. He has come to your shelter. You teach him. [break] Just like a diseased person, if he is a little careless, he is not very strict in following the..., it will take some time. It is exactly like that. He, because of his material opulences, he thinks that "Oh, where is the disease? This is all right. I am happy." That is the defect. We have to reduce. That is called tapasya. Not that "Because my tongue is asking me to eat something, therefore I must eat." Not that. That is the difference between ordinary man and gosvāmī. Gosvāmī means one who has conquered over the dictation of the senses. My sense dictates to do something, but when I am able to dictate the sense, "No, you cannot do it," that is called gosvāmī. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Dr. Patel: ...maybe an African or Indian? Prabhupāda: No, Indian. Dr. Patel: African, after all. Americans must be first. (static interference) ...politically conscious Africans. Prabhupāda: We have got about ten African devotees now in Nairobi branch. [break] ...to material sense enjoyment. Such persons cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] ...avoid the dictation of the senses. But when a man is able to dictate the senses, then he is gosvāmī. Dr. Patel: That is? Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī. Dr. Patel: "One who is lord of go." Prabhupāda: Yes, senses. In that stage he cannot give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante. When one sees that "This is better quality than the other," then he takes. Unless... Because superficially... Suppose because for becoming Vaiṣṇava, he has to undergo so many austerities. So ordinary man cannot find out that this is better life than that. So when he understands, "This service is not good; to serve Kṛṣṇa is good," then he can give up the service of māyā. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante. Just like an ordinary servant, he is serving in your house, but if he gets some more salary in other's house, he gives it up. That is required. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartante. Girirāja: (reading) "This māyā or illusory struggle for existence is immediately stopped. Lord Brahmā, who has full control over the Goddess of learning and who is considered to be the best authority in Vedic knowledge, was thus perplexed, being unable to understand the extraordinary power manifested in the Supreme Personality of Godhead." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi*-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ. [break] ...said that unless one comes to understand the inconceivable power of God, there is no meaning of God. Dr. Patel: It is inconceivable to conceive God. Prabhupāda: No, no, inconceivable power of God. God is in your presence. Dr. Patel: No, no, but His personal power is inconceivable. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...understand the inconceivable power of God. [break] First of all he has to come to the sattva*-guṇa. Sthitaḥ sattve prasīdati. *Dr. Patel: Americans have more rajo*-guṇa. They are creating and creating and creating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: We are by more tamas. They are indolent, don't want to work. Prabhupāda: [break] Everyone makes this mistake. So as he is accepting, as Arjuna accepted, this is paramparā acceptance. [break] Girirāja: "...the material luminaries, Your transcendental effulgence is identical with brahmajyoti." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...advised and all the ācāryas advised, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's advised. Why should we go somewhere else? Take shelter of His lotus feet. That's all. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This is right conclusion. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. [break] Mahātmā, immediately by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Immediately. [break] A child, if he is informed, "God is everywhere," he will never understand what is God. He knows that God is there, that this God consciousness is there. So what is the use of educating him, "Oh, God is everywhere. You don't require to go to temple?" This is nonsense. It is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. He must know, "Here is God." He goes there, offer respect. All the children come. [break] ...a man, military man like Arjuna. Dr. Patel: Yes. Can he be a general? Prabhupāda: Mr. Sar. Mr. Sar: Arjuna was a very, very great general, the most ideal general representing the real culture of this country. *Prabhupāda: That is wanted. It doesn't matter. Nanda Mahārāja, a vaiśya. Arjuna is a kṣatriya. And there are many śūdras also. So what is that goat(?) caṇḍāla. He was a caṇḍāla. But everyone has got the right to become a devotee. That is wanted. [break] ...tanuvān manobhiḥ. Remain in your place, but giving aural reception to the Kṛṣṇa message, you become a devotee. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't ask anybody to change. We want to make him transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. [break] Brahma-stuta śruti-kārayan. Now, in the brahma-stuta, yaṁ brahma, beginning... So that is yaṁ brahma. Then simply if you recite, yaṁ brahma... You must know who is that yam. And that is being explained by Kṛṣṇa. Here is that yam, Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: Vasudeva, bolo. Child: (chants some verse in Sanskrit.) Prabhupāda: Devakī ānandam. Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇaṁ vande jagat guru. *Prabhupāda: Yaṁ brahma*-varuṇendra-rudraḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavaiḥ. Sometimes the impersonalists argue, "If nobody has seen Him, then where is His form?" But here is. Brahmā, yaṁ brahma. Here is Brahmā praying. So why you say nobody has seen? Brahmā has seen. Therefore he is offering. Dr. Patel: Bolo asitagirā samaṁsyāt. He'll recite half a dozen. Prabhupāda: That's right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Child: (chants Sanskrit verses.) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Child: (chants more verses) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Dr. Patel: He wants to study Sanskrit from now, when I read all those books. But his father has put him directly in English medium. It becomes very difficult. I have to take him out and now he can read Sanskrit. You can read. Prabhupāda: English medium, Sanskrit. Dr. Patel: English medium, the intelligence gets baffled because it is not a mother language. Prabhupāda: Aurobindo Ghosh studied English from the very beginning. Dr. Patel: But he was extremely clever. He studied then Gujarati, not even Bengali. After he came from England... Prabhupāda: He came to Gujarati. No. He came to Baroda. Dr. Patel: Then he studied Gujarati, but he did not know Bengali at all. And then he came... [break] What is that? [break] Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) From our childhood, if there was a rice grain on the floor, my father, er, my mother would ask me, "Take it and touch it on your head." Dr. Patel: We were advised not to tread on the grains. [break] Prabhupāda: Because by chance, if the grain is struck with the leg, she asked, "Take it and you touch it on the head." Dr. Patel: That is the culture. That is real culture. *Prabhupāda: Means from the very beginning he understands anna*-brahma. Dr. Patel: Even it is not spoken, you practice it. Prabhupāda: Yes, practice it. According to Vedic culture, the higher class, in every home there is nārāyaṇa-śilā for worship, especially of the brāhmaṇas. *Dr. Patel: In our homes we have all these small such temples, small chapels. All of us, our homes have got one room specially for Kṛṣṇa*-mūrti and (indistinct) For pūjā only. [break] We say ṭhākura-ghara. *Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura*-ghara must be there, not only simply a lavatory. There must be one ṭhākura-ghara. (end) Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...I shall speak. Mahāṁśa: First His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda will speak something about our philosophy for a few minutes, and then you can ask questions. Prabhupāda: Mahāṁśa: Now we open the placement to your questions. Prabhupāda: Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can... *Guest (1): Since you are following Bhagavad*-gītā, do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy? *Prabhupāda: Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt. So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living men. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. Guest (1): What I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says... *Prabhupāda: We are speaking from the Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; *you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī, and my body is deha. So deha*-dehī, there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room, I am not this room; similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is call illusion. Guest (2): What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama [Bg. 15.6]. So our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage*-not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life. Guest (3): Is that perfection possible in one life? Prabhupāda: Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that Guest (3): But isn't the bhajana that you do for concentration? Prabhupāda: Yes, bhajana is concentration, reading is concentration... Guest (3): No, besides that, any other type of concentration you do? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by concentration? Guest (3): Meditation. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you think... Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. The yogis, in dhyāna, in meditation, they always see the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu within the heart. So that is meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. The jñānīs, they see by cultivation of knowledge, and the bhaktas, they see the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is understood from different angles of vision. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam [SB 1.2.11]. That is Absolute Truth. Yaj jñānam advayam. There is no difference between Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. The same thing in different angle of vision. The jñānīs, they realize as impersonal Brahman. The yogis, they realize as Paramātmā situated in everyone's heart. And the bhaktas, they realize as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the thing is the same. It is the different angle of vision only. Guest (2): What exactly is guru's role in your system? *Prabhupāda: To teach how to get rid of this disease of birth, death and old age. That is guru's business. That is also father's business, that is also guru's business, or the caretaker's business, the government's business. Because this human life is meant for getting out of these clutches of māyā, constantly, repeatedly changing body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], bhūtvā pralīyate. This business should be stopped. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyuṁ gurur na sa syāt. Śāstra says, "One should not be guru if he cannot deliver the disciple from the chain of birth, death, old age and disease." *Guest (4): (indistinct*-question about why there is a better response to Kṛṣṇa consciousness in foreign countries than in India) *Prabhupāda: The Americans and the Europeans, they are fed up with this material type of civilization. They are... They know that spiritual life is there in India. They understand it. Therefore, any swami goes there, they go round him to take some spiritual instruction. Unfortunately, mostly they go who have no knowledge. They cannot give them right knowledge. So for the time being they may surround them, but after some time they disperse. Because they do not get actually. Because so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, now many swamis went there and they preached Bhagavad*-gītā also, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa for the last hundreds of years. But now Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, and people are taking it by hundreds, thousands. So they are after some knowledge, spiritual knowledge, from India, but our so-called swamis, they go, they do not give actual information of the Indian spiritual culture. Therefore they are practically deceived. But this Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we do not change anything. In the Bhagavad-gītā you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So we are teaching them that "Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa." So they are accepting. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we are teaching that "Just always think of Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and you will remember Kṛṣṇa." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "And just become devotee. Worship the Deity of Kṛṣṇa. Become His bhakta." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Lord Kṛṣṇa." Māṁ namaskuru. "Offer your obeisances to Kṛṣṇa." So we are teaching this arcanam. We have got hundred temples like this all over the world. And hundreds and thousands are joining. So this is practical. So they are accepting. Now it is our duty to give the actual Vedic culture which is concise, summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvopaniṣad-gavaḥ, the essence of all Upaniṣad teaching. So there is very good demand for this culture, but unfortunately we give some rubbish things, and they come. Sometimes they go, that he becomes himself God. What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of... But here Bhagavad-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: [Bg. 4.13] "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] "You just produce sufficient foodgrain and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā? Guest (5): Do you think that the Russian society is not put off by this bhajana? Prabhupāda: Russian? Guest (5): Society. Prabhupāda: I do not know Russian society, but I can say I have been in Moscow. The people are not happy. That I can say. Guest (1): How many of your disciples would have seen the vision of God in the sense of seeing the Lord given in their heart. Prabhupāda: Vision of God you can see also. Here is vision of God. Guest (1): In the sense of seeing the Lord in their own heart? Prabhupāda: No, no. That is, of course, later on. First of all see here is God, vision of God. Everyone can see. It is public. Why you ask my disciples? You can see also. No, no. That like, vision of God, here is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): That is physical vision. Prabhupāda: That's all. Physical means vision; your vision is also physical. Your vision is not spiritual. Whatever you see with your eyes, that is physical. That is not anything beyond physical. Guest (1): See with spiritual eyes. Prabhupāda: Spiritual eyes, that's all right. But first of all you have to see whatever eyes you have got. You have got physical eyes. Why you are talking of spiritual eyes? Guest (1): Well, sir, that only, we are, all these things would learn that spiritual eyes. *Prabhupāda: That you will learn. That is stated in the śāstra. Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. When you develop love for God, then you can that spiritual eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva. He sees everywhere, always. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilo... That you have to develop that position. Immediately you cannot do that. Yes, immediately you have to see physically. Then gradually, when by offering service, you develop your dormant love for God, then you can see spiritual. It is not immediately or for everyone. So you have to wait for tha position. *Guest (6): Consciousness movement in the West*-like you said, the Western people are fed up with materialism. Is it that they are fed up only with materialism or with...? Prabhupāda: Well, people, people have become godless everywhere. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu. That is a general disease. So actually, everyone is concerned now with material comforts. But these material comforts mean wine and women, that's all. Substance of material comforts. So that they have enjoyed enough. The facility of enjoying woman and getting money, there is no limit. There is no limit. Anyone, the money is thrown in the street. You can simply collect. And similarly, women are available. So actually, they do not get any happiness by these material elements. They are seeking after something, that's a fact. Guest (7): But isn't the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has not spread in the Arab world? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is spreading. We have got branch in Iran. Guest (7): Yes? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have got branch in Moscow, we have got in China. But they are taking gradually. Everything will take time. But we have got many Muhammadan students. Yes. Guest (8): You have got a center established in Iran? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (8): Within what time? Recent? Prabhupāda: I think about two years. Yes. We have got African students also, many African students. And everywhere we are spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We go village to village, they accept. In African village, with big, big earrings, they also dance in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Guest (8): How do they respond in China? Prabhupāda: Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel... Everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders. That's all. Guest (9): You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (9): In this context, how do you see the government of India? Prabhupāda: I do not wish to speak of any particular government. But generally, everywhere the government is not very good. Even in America, the president is not liked. Guest (5): Swamiji, India is supposed to be a land of spirituality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (5): How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country? Prabhupāda: Because you did not lead them, you did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books. Guest (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders? Prabhupāda: What is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think..., if the businessman is not spiritual leader. Guest (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā, it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee, you just worship Me, offer your obeisance." And Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see. He is scholar, he is a philosopher. Even Gandhi says that "There was no Kṛṣṇa; *it is all mythology." Then? How people will learn it? If Kṛṣṇa becomes mythology, the Bhagavad*-gītā becomes imagination and anyone can interpret in any way. Then where is the teaching? Guest (7): Are the teachings themself spiritual? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all try to understand that what is the defect. The defect is that malinterpretation, bad interpretation. Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Then what right you have got to say that "It is not Kṛṣṇa; *it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad*-gītā? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous. It has spoiled the whole country. You write your own philosophy. But why do you take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and misinterpret it and mislead the people? That is my protest. Guest (8): What is the plan of the Hyderabad project? Prabhupāda: Hyderabad project. That he knows, Mahāṁśa. Guest (9): What your goal, to plan Northern India? Your goal to plan Northern India? How long you will be staying and...? Prabhupāda: No, I am going to see Bālajī. That's all. Bālajī. Guest (9): And then go back to the States? Prabhupāda: No. I will go to Europe and... I'll go to London, then to Paris, then Germany, then Sweden, then Switzerland. I have got temples there. In Germany we have got four temples. In Sweden we have got. In Switzerland we have got. France we have got. In England we have got four, five. Guest (9): No government is placing obstacles? Prabhupāda: No, they receive it very nicely. They understand that "Swamiji is doing something nice." Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Morning Walk -- April 19, 1974, Hyderabad Mahāṁsa: Pious people, they see that actually they are not giving any spiritual benefit by converting them into Christianity. So they are very against this. They want some original Vedic school, Gurukula schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is, we have done already. Satsvarūpa has got practical experience. He can give you advice. He started this Gurukula. Practically this Gurukula I suggested, but he began. Yes. So you can take practical advice from him. Mahāṁsa: I don't think we can start building until we finish this temple. Prabhupāda: No, you can start in a cottage. Mahāṁsa: Yes, small way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁsa: And then develop. Prabhupāda: Building is not very important. Work is important. Activity is important. I started my movement not with buildings, but real activity. So building is opulence. You can do without opulence. You can start anything, even underneath a tree. There is no difficulty. [break] They will allow our men? Mahāṁsa: I went. They did not ask any questions. Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of asking, but is there any hint from their side? Mahāṁsa: I have not heard that they, Tirumali, they refuse foreigners. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. [break] So far reporters, they agree that others have no right to comment on this. (end) Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...meeting, our life members are not coming? Mahāṁsa: Yes, it is (indistinct). Many life members came, Prabhupāda. There were many cars also. [break] *Prabhupāda: No mangoes are hanging. [break] "Kṛṣṇa is everything," is little difficult for everyone, eh? They want hodge*-podge-"Everything is all right." So has anybody offered some lump sum for the construction? Mahāṁsa: Not as yet, Prabhupāda. Actually they are all waiting for Mr. Piti(?) to make his pledge. They have some kind of... These Marwaris... [break] Prabhupāda: I did not see Hari Prasad. Mahāṁsa: He was there. Prabhupāda: He was there? Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes, his whole family was there. Mr. Pulla Reddy was there. Prabhupāda: Yes, Pulla Reddy, I have seen. [break] He is so much convinced in with our philosophy in Bombay, he is going to take sannyāsa. Mahāṁsa: Oh, in Hare Kṛṣṇa Land? Prabhupāda: Yes. Although he is officially Shaivite, but he says that "I am so much convinced with your speech." Pañcadraviḍa: Who is that person, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: I do not remember the name. Nitāi: He lives in that same building? Prabhupāda: Yes. Downstairs. Nitāi: Oh. He comes to every one of your lectures. Mahāṁsa: I will just tell him that we do not need the car. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...between nitya*-mukta and nitya-baddha. *Pañcadraviḍa: The nitya*-mukta devotees, Prabhupāda, they are always engaged in the service of the Lord, and every thought of theirs is engaged at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, of serving Him completely. And when they appear on this earth, persons like yourself, they only come here for the purpose of reclaiming the fallen conditioned souls. They have no reason to come to this material world for their own enjoyment. That is never on their mind. But the nitya-bandhas, they are here simply to try and manipulate this material nature so that they can engage their own senses in gratification either of themselves or their extended self like their family. So the difference between the two is one is serving Kṛṣṇa, the other is simply serving his senses. Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Satsvarūpa: Eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. *Prabhupāda: Eternally liberated, they never forget Kṛṣṇa. There is no period throughout the existence... There is no question of existence. It is their all existence. Never touched by māyā, forgetfulness. That is nitya*-mukta. [break] *Pañcadraviḍa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were talking that a person, he can come up to that position of nitya*-mukta by either following the principles of sādhana-bhakti or causeless mercy, or you said there was also the question of kṛpā, the kṛpā-siddhi, that one can attain perfection... *Prabhupāda: No, that is sādhana*-bhakti. *Pañcadraviḍa: One gets mercy by sādhana*-bhakti. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In the stage of sādhana*-bhakti... Sadhana-bhakti is for the conditioned soul. And siddha. Siddha means they are already mature. Siddha means nitya-siddha. *Pañcadraviḍa: [break] Also, Prabhupāda you said that if one does not worship Pañca*-tattva, whatever actions he performs, even if he is so-called Kṛṣṇa-bhakta, is to be considered offensive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: Does this mean other sampradāyas also? Prabhupāda: Other sampradāyas? *Pañcadraviḍa: For instance, Rāmānuja sampradāya or also Madhva*-sampradāya, they sometimes don't accept Pañca-tattva as being supreme. So is their actions also considered offensive even if they are acting within sampradāya? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Mahāṁsa: [break] ...Rāmānuja sampradāya, do they have a chain of disciplic succession, bona fide chain, to this present day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁsa: And the other sampradāyas also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Chain must be there. Now, whether strictly following the..., that is another thing. *Pañcadraviḍa: [break] ...invited us to their program at Udupi, Madhva*-sampradāya. When they are changing the ācāryas every two years, they extended one invitation to come for their program, main temple program. Prabhupāda: So why did you not accept? Pañcadraviḍa: There was no transportation available. Prabhupāda: Transportation? Mahāṁsa: Should we go to such programs, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: If they invite, why not? That means they recognize. But one thing, you be certain whether this Tirupati temple is going to allow our men. Mahāṁsa: I will send somebody tomorrow in advance to make preparations. Prabhupāda: Where? *Mahāṁsa: To Tirupati. Actually Guru*-kṛpa and Yaśodā-nandana, they've had darśana of Lord Bālajī. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then it is all right. They had no difficulty. Mahāṁsa: Yes. And also Maṇibandha had once been, last time in the Hyderabad program was... Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. *Pañcadraviḍa: They gave Guru*-kṛpa and Yaśodā-nandana special darśana. They took them into the circle where usually they'd only let special people... Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Then that's all right. *Mahāṁsa: [break] ...very impressed because we have nāgara*-kīrtana all over the place. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁsa: And if they are impressed, they can, when our construction starts, they will be very willing to also give a very huge donation. They are capable of... Prabhupāda: How many people are going altogether? Mahāṁsa: About fifteen devotees. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So we have to go by plane? Mahāṁsa: No, we will go by bus. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bus is going every day? *Mahāṁsa: Yes, there is two very special buses. It costs forty*-two rupees per ticket to go there. Prabhupāda: [break] ...wood is the strongest of all wood, this. (taps wood with cane or something) Very strong. Pañcadraviḍa: What kind of wood is that? Prabhupāda: It is guava tree. Mahāṁsa: Guava, oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. You know what is that lattu, we used to play? What is the English? Mahāṁsa: Spinning? Prabhupāda: Like a small, and we used to... Mahāṁsa: Oh, top, a top. Like that. It's top. Prabhupāda: Top. What is called, top? Mahāṁsa: That is made of this, Prabhupāda? Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Very strong. Pañcadraviḍa: [break] ...tops to gamble. That's part of the... Prabhupāda: Gambling religion. Now here also, they are advertising gambling, this government. Deteriorating, the whole world is deteriorating and suffering. Suffering is increasing. Still they are so rascal, they cannot understand that what is the advancement. They have become so less intelligent. Pañcadraviḍa: Usually, though, it is the children. They gamble for cookies and candy and things like this. Prabhupāda: No, children they learn it from their parents. Otherwise they do not know. [break] ...by memory, by mercifulness... People are not so merciful now. Suppose in your presence somebody is being killed. You avoid to stand there. No more merciful. What to speak of the animals? If a man is killed, nobody will take care. I have heard it in America that if somebody is killed or attacked, nobody will go to help. Is it not? Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So the mercifulness has gone. And what to speak of religiosity? That is completely gone. These things will reduce: mercifulness, religiosity, memory, bodily strength, and so many, eight, eight. They are mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Religious principles. Pañcadraviḍa: And you were writing that it is just a little bit of truthfulness is left. Prabhupāda: Yes. You secure dhātun from the tree. Ask them. The three dhātun they gave, that is finished. [break] ...water is full, one can take bath. Mahāṁsa: Swimming. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the śāstras of the (sic:) yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic śāstras. They are not as... They are not bona fide like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here? Prabhupāda: Who? Pañcadraviḍa: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what? Prabhupāda: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that's all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, "No, don't do this." "Thou shalt not covet," a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And little God consciousness, "There is God, kingdom of God," little idea for the persons who could understand. Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, "Thou shalt not kill," is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God? *Pañcadraviḍa: These things, they are also in (sic:) Manu*-saṁhitā? *Prabhupāda: That is for... Manu*-saṁhitā forbids completely. Manu-saṁhitā is not religion. It is moral principles for conducting society. Religion is how to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. That is natural. [break] "...shalt not kill," this is expectation. "Someday, in future, one may become religious." That's all. Because by killing, killing, they are going downer, down. So if they stop killing, some day they will be able to understand what is religion. Sukṛti. Because, without being freed from all sinful activities, nobody can understand what is God. Therefore about God, in India they can understand very easily. In other countries they cannot. Very few because always engaged in sinful activities, all forbidden sinful activities. Just like you said that gambling has been introduced in religion. Killing has been introduced in religion. What is that religion? The more they take to the sinful activities, the more they become implicated-again birth and birth and birth and birth. Unless one is completely free, he cannot understand what is God. Yeṣam anta-gataṁ pāpam. You know this verse? The Bhagavad-gītā, yes. Pañcadraviḍa: When one becomes free of sinful activities, then he can begin devotional life. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mahāṁsa: That kind of worship is eternal. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Janme janme pita sei. Cakhu*-dan kilo jei, janme janme pita sei. Pañcadraviḍa: Where is that śloka you were quoting last night from that ending gokala. *Prabhupāda: Go*-kharaḥ, go-kharaḥ. That is in Bhāgavata. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhiḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ [SB 10.84.13]. You give him that śloka, (indistinct). So actually at the present moment the whole world is full of go-kharaḥ, that's all, animals. Everyone thinks in terms-"I am this body," that's all. He is not human being, but every so-called civilized man is thinking like that. So where is the civilization of human being? All go-kharaḥs, animals. [break] ...because if you keep all these ingredients, life will come. Is it not? Pañcadraviḍa: When the soul is entering, they are all complete? *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If you keep... A man is dead, and keep his body. So it will decompose, but the life will come. So many worms will come. So these are... If you say that chemicals, these material, then the chemicals are there, and life is coming. Now you take this chemical and prepare. You cannot say, "Although these chemicals are there, there is some deficiency. Therefore the life is not coming." No, why do you say like that? Life is coming. That man is not coming, but the life is coming. So these are ingredients for life. You prepare. You bring that man. Still, the rascal will say that life is made from matter. Not even gentlemen, what to speak of becoming scientist? You prepare. "No, in future we shall see." And he is getting Nobel Prize. Just see how the human society has become full of rascals, go*-kharaḥ. They cannot prove; *still they will insist, "Yes." And so far God is concerned, we learn from śāstra that God's two energies are working like heat and light. So energies are working, we can see. How these mangoes have come unless there is some energy? So therefore the energy is working. Therefore God is there. Just like as soon as light is there, although we are in the room we can understand that sunlight is there. As soon as the darkness is there, we understand that there is no more sun. So in the presence of energy... Just like in the motor car, before starting, you round the key, and it becomes, "Gut, gut, gut, gut." Now your current is there. The energy is there. So there are symptoms. By symptoms we can understand there is God. Where is the difficulty? And Kṛṣṇa is explaining, "Here, just see the symptom. The taste in the water I am." Then why do you say that you have not seen God? You are liar. You create that taste? Now take sea water and make that taste. Why do you take water from here and there? Sea water is there. Now you take it, and by chemical you create the taste. Why don't you? Therefore, unless God is there, you cannot do that, or God's sanction, you cannot do that. This is reasonable understanding of God, apart from seeing God. And because the taste is there*-Kṛṣṇa says-therefore God is there. According to your capacity, you have to see God like that. You cannot see immediately Kṛṣṇa, with dvi-bhuja muralī, playing on flute. That you have no capacity. You have to see God like that. So when the rubber stamp is going to be delivered? Devotee: I will bring it today. *Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama*-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; *you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13], they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brāhmaṇa class and above, post-graduate of brāhmaṇa class, Vaiṣṇava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil . They will indulge in this meat-eating and drinking wine and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our (name withheld) was... [break] ...Park. (Name withheld) our. Yes, she said. Mahāṁsa: She said? Prabhupāda: No, no, she said. She was captured by a group of negroes to rape her. [break] That girl, what is his name? (name withheld) wife? Satsvarūpa: (Name withheld). Prabhupāda: She was raped. Satsvarūpa: Trinidad. Prabhupāda: Yes. She was raped. Pañcadraviḍa: How do you teach a varṇāśrama college? In varṇāśrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be kṣatriya" or "I want to be vaiśya." Is it like that? Prabhupāda: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru. Pañcadraviḍa: Who will teach him to be a kṣatriya or who will teach him to be a vaiśya? Prabhupāda: A kṣatriya, a brāhmaṇa. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician. Pañcadraviḍa: So where will we get kṣatriyas and...? *Prabhupāda: That is in the śāstra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Kṣatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is kṣatriya. Pañcadraviḍa: So we have men who could teach this? Do we have men...? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Because he knows how to teach. That's all. Pañcadraviḍa: The brāhmaṇas, they all become devotee... They would all be engaged in devotional life as... Prabhupāda: This is also devotion, to teach a kṣatriya, because this is necessary in the society. This is also devotion. Pañcadraviḍa: And vaiśyas? Prabhupāda: Just like when Kṛṣṇa is fighting. Kṛṣṇa is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Kṛṣṇa by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa. Just like, the example is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) [break] ...lying down on the Yamunā beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Kṛṣṇa. He was lying down on the Yamunā beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice? Mahāṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: So we must know how to please Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23], that is pleasing. Therefore these rules and regulation for everyone. But when one becomes mature devotee, he knows how to please Kṛṣṇa. He knows. Nitāi: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman. Prabhupāda: Clergyman? Nitāi: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman. Prabhupāda: Where he was? Nitāi: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varṇāśrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory... Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra. Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer? Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also. Nitāi: He can remain in the factory. Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. Nitāi: So in that case he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a... *Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma*-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required. Mahāṁsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁsa: He is a devotee. He is not a śūdra making garlands. Prabhupāda: No. He is not a ordinary gardener. Pañcadraviḍa: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges. Prabhupāda: Any engagement, any engagement for Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaiṣṇava. He is above all these. *Pañcadraviḍa: A śūdra, if he is working, he cannot take brāhmaṇa initiation, but he can take hari*-nāma, is that it? Prabhupāda: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brāhmaṇa, as śūdra, as kṣatriya, like that. Mahāṁsa: Does he get second initiation? Prabhupāda: Everything he will get. Mahāṁsa: He gets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: "Now he has become fully competent Vaiṣṇava." Just like master is teaching the servant, "Now you give massage in this way, this way." But that does not mean he has become servant. Pañcadraviḍa: What if the person working as śūdra says, "I can do so much. I can...," Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; *he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū*-vargeṇa. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra or vaiśya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [SB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That is wanted. Pañcadraviḍa: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, "I can't..." Prabhupāda: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal. That's all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don't talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something. Prabhupāda: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing. Nitāi: One point that you made a few years ago in Vṛndāvana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don't have time to cultivate spiritual life. Pañcadraviḍa: ...such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kīrtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we... Prabhupāda: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service. Pañcadraviḍa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it. Pañcadraviḍa: Some persons we encounter they don't even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are... *Prabhupāda: No, if you miss on account of busy*-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this. Satsvarūpa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though. Prabhupāda: Then he is animal. Satsvarūpa: But still, he's doing lots of good devotional service. Pañcadraviḍa: He may even be manager. Prabhupāda: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. [break] And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that "I am so busy." *Pañcadraviḍa: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty*-five rounds a day or more. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you can chant more, that is good. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...must associate with them, that is difficult. *Prabhupāda: But you do your business. You don't follow them. That's all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that "Next day also, I am busy," then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. "Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting"*-this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Somebody, after initiation he promises, "Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds," before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaiṣṇava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating. Viddhi-bhakti must be followed; otherwise it becomes sahajiyā. [break] ...Kerala? Indian man (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: You said that one gentleman, his name is Adhyātma? Indian man (1): He was blaspheming our society. It was a (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: I can understand that he is not very favorable. But still, you said that we hate Hindi. You have said like that. Don't say like that because there may be one... Because preaching means we have to preach amongst the rascals but you do not become rascal. He may be... [break] "...Who will read Hindi? You do not... Who will read Hindi? You can read Hindi, that's all. But who will read outside Hindi? Therefore, Guru Mahārāja..." This should have been the reply. "If there is good customers for Hindi reading, then we can write Hindi books. But nobody will read Hindi." That should have been the reply. Therefore we write in English. "Why Jawaharlal Nehru read his books in English? Why Dr. Radhakrishnan writes his books in English? He has not written a single book in Hindi. Why? Why he was president? Why he was prime minister? Why did you not criticize him?" That should have been replied, that "As soon as a book is written in English, it is for world reading. And if it is written in Hindi, who is going to read except a few people like you? Why still Indians, they are sending their children for education through English?" You know that? There are so many English medium school. Is it not? Yes. Why? Why they are anxious? So much agitation was made for studying Hindi, but then why India still, even in families they are talking in English? In Bombay they talk in English amongst family members. And any gentleman meets another gentleman*-he talks in English. Why it has not been stopped? So actually Hindi has no effect and if we take international rule, what is the use of Hindi? Nobody will like to... And even here, even here in India, who is reading Hindi? Nobody is reading Hindi. It is compulsory in every province, Hindi? Not compulsory. So? Indian man (1): Not Hindi, also they are developing local languages, they are teaching English letters now. The latest, they send their childrens to the English medium schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (1): But these are also, they are definitely studying in local languages. Don't (indistinct) they are regulated. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Just see. This is going on everywhere. There are so many private schools for teaching English. Indian man (1): This is what I call cheating, to keep this. Prabhupāda: They are cheater. Indian man (2): (Hindi) ...in English Prabhupāda: That is their local language. Indian man (1): Even wordly, everything is in English in world also. But these peoples said, "Why the devotees don't...?" Prabhupāda: Now, I have earned my practical experience. I am traveling all over the world. Everywhere, if not all, some sections they understand English. Everywhere. Indian man (1): English is common language. Prabhupāda: Yes. We cannot avoid English. Pañcadraviḍa: Even we went on an engagement in Bengal to a movie theater. They were showing our slides. There they had one Russian movie. It was in English. Russian movie was in English. Indian man (1): There are so many books Russians put out in English only. In India so many Russian books are there. They're publishing. All books are in English. They're using this language for their own purpose. Prabhupāda: Any book of engineering, medical, technical, they are all in English. And for writing those books in Hindi means he will have to manufacture some words which nobody will understand. Indian man (2): English in the West is the international language. Prabhupāda: They are fanatics, those who are after Hindi, fanatics. Practical point of view, without English there is no exchange. Indian man (2): He was blasting our society. That's why I let him be that. Prabhupāda: No, still, you should not say like that. Indian Man (3): English, they speak. That's the language (indistinct) And all the people can read it. All the people can read it. *Prabhupāda: We are making all over India members with these English books. Why do they not say, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting English books? It is my fault that I have written in English or it is their fault? Why they are accepting? Everywhere we are making life members but why do they accept these English books? They could have refused, "No, no, no, I cannot accept English book." Why they are accepting? I know one boy. He is about forty-two years. But he was practically my first student. He is a very big scholar in Sanskrit. But because he does not know English, he is useless. He could not make any, prosper in any way. He is taken as half-educated. He was appointed as vice-chancellor of the Darbhana(?) Sanskrit University. Maybe it is only name. Anyway, now his teaching period is over. Now he is useless. He does not get any service. Although he is a very big Sanskrit scholar. The only defect, that he does not know English*-he does not get any responsible position. Pañcadraviḍa: He does not want to learn? Prabhupāda: No. He was trying to learn but he could not learn it. If he is serious, he can learn, but he is not serious. Indian man (1): If we learn English perfectly, the local priests will (indistinct) those others don't speak English anymore. Prabhupāda: No, local language is required. Indian man (1): Suppose if we learn English, then we can preach in our local language. Prabhupāda: Yes, local language is required. No, Hindi also, you should learn, but... We can have publication in Hindi also. But when we speak of international organization, English must be there. Pañcadraviḍa: [break] ...them into all the schools. Prabhupāda: Yes. School, college, library, enlightened gentlemen, businessmen, they have all accepted. *Pañcadraviḍa: This is how it would work. This is Akṣayānanda's work. He has been doing this for some months here now. He goes every day to all the different colleges and schools, and he speaks, and he shows them your books for their college libraries. He's been having a lot of programs like this. They always take the Bhagavad*-gītā and Kṛṣṇa Books and Nectar of Devotion, like this. *Prabhupāda: Best thing is that "Why your president, he did not write a single Hindi book? He has got so many. He is a famous philosopher. Indian religion, Indian philosophy, and Bhagavad*-gītā. Then... He has written so many books but not a single in Hindi." Indian man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan belongs to South India. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is from Madras. Indian man (1): Yes, he doesn't know. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know. Sometimes, before my taking sannyāsa, sometimes I used to see him. So once upon a time he asked me, "Swamiji, you are simply writing in English?" So I asked him, "What you are doing?" So he began to laugh. (end) Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...principles? What we should inform to the people in general? Pañcadraviḍa: I try to remember that Lord Caitanya, He informed that the purpose of all Vedic literatures is to acquaint people with their relationship which they have forgotten with God, to teach them how to engage themself in that relationship and to understand that the goal is to come to pure love of God. So when I speak I try to bring that into it also because we are actually speaking from śāstra, so we should acquaint people with the principles of devotional service, tell them that they have forgotten God, that they must serve God and practically how they can do it. Prabhupāda: No, they will say that "We have not forgotten God. We go to church regularly." And the Mohammedans will say that "We go to mosque. So why we have forgotten God?" Pañcadraviḍa: Going to church or mosque... When we are speaking to the people, we don't discourage that they change their religion or anything. Prabhupāda: No. You, your charge is that they have forgotten God. They will answer that "We have not forgotten God. We are going to church, we are going to our mosque. Why we have forgotten God?" Pañcadraviḍa: Because they are not serving Him... [break] ...relationship. They are not actively serving Him. They are engaging themselves... We see practically that some people say they are theists... Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of service? Pañcadraviḍa: Service means a relationship of serving out of love. So people are simply serving their stomach or... Prabhupāda: "So if I haven't got love, then why I am coming to church?" Satsvarūpa: Well, we're educating them what is God. They go to church, but they don't know. "What is your idea of God?" We ask them. Prabhupāda: "Whatever it may be, when I offer my prayers, I remember there is some God. I may not have clear idea. I have got my own conception of God." So what is the answer? Satsvarūpa: Well, there are symptoms if you... We don't discourage, as Pañcadraviḍa Mahārāja says, but if you are following God, the best religion is that which develops love of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is answered. "If I haven't got love for God, then why I am coming to church?" Pañcadraviḍa: If you have love for God, why you are coming to church? Prabhupāda: No. "Because I have got love for God, therefore I am coming to church. At that time I could have earned some money." Pañcadraviḍa: But we're also teaching that this love, love is not just based on sentimentality. Love is also practical. Just like in this world, when there is relationship between man and woman, there is a practical exchange of love. It is not simply that love is only based on words. Also one is based on actions. We can judge how much a man is developing love by what his activities are. Prabhupāda: "So what you have found in me that you have concluded that I have no love for God. What you have seen in me?" Pañcadraviḍa: I have not concluded that... When I speak with a person, I do not say, "I have concluded that you have no love of God." Prabhupāda: "You say. That you have charged, but on what account you say like that? What I have done?" Nitai: Because you go to church only for one hour all week. The rest of the time is not spent in serving God. Prabhupāda: That may be. But that does not mean that I do not love God. *Satsvarūpa: Well we don't criticize your love of God, but it can be increased. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad*-gītā always think of Him in whatever you do, during your work, during the week. We can teach you how to... You like to go to church? That shows you have some affection for God. We can teach you how, wherever you are, to think of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This is not proper answer. Pañcadraviḍa: Then if you have love of God, then we are also spreading this consciousness of love of God all over the whole world to people who have not developed that love, then you should willingly engage yourself in supporting this work. Prabhupāda: "But we are also preaching." Mohammedans will say, "We preaching. We take also sword sometimes. If he does not believe in God, we cut his throat." The Christian missionaries, they will also say that "We are also going on all over the world. We have made so many big church." Pañcadraviḍa: We have also got our work, and we show them... Prabhupāda: No, no. How do you say that you are better than him? If they are also doing, it may be difference of degrees, but we are also doing the same thing. Pañcadraviḍa: If a person is having love of God, though, then his love is not simply confined to his own work. You say you are having love of God; we are also spreading this movement all over the world. So God is one... Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are also preaching Christianity all over the world. Our number of Christians is higher than your number of devotees. Our preaching work is better than yours." *Pañcadraviḍa: We ourselves are coming from Christian country, and we see that the entire society is so*-called Christian, but... Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say entire society is after you? Pañcadraviḍa: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: Can you prove that the entire society is after you only? Pañcadraviḍa: We have got our society, this International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Prabhupāda: "That's all right, we have got our society. But we are also preaching, and we have got many countries, we have got devotees, Christians. Number of Christian is greater than your number of Vaiṣṇava devotees." Akṣayānanda: So we are only requesting you to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is a process only. You are requesting chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; we are requesting prayer, 'Give us our daily bread.' That's all. That is also prayer. This is chanting and that is prayer. So there is no difference." Akṣayānanda: But when we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we are praying to God, "Please let me serve you." Prabhupāda: That is already settled. We are also serving. We are preaching Christianity. Pañcadraviḍa: So then the work we are doing, God is one, we are all serving God, then there should be no objection to assisting us in propagating this love of God all over the world. You are already saying... Prabhupāda: No, what is that love of God? That is already answered, that "We have also love of God." Pañcadraviḍa: If you love someone, what are you doing? What is the aspect of your personal life? Prabhupāda: "No, what we are not doing? What you are doing?" *Pañcadraviḍa: Our engagement is twenty*-four hours. *Prabhupāda: "That may be. One may be engaged twenty*-four hours or may be engaged for eight hours. That does not mean, you cannot say that I have no love for God." (pause) Akṣayānanda: It has already been predicted in the śāstra that this method of chanting the holy name of God will be accepted by everyone in the world. Prabhupāda: "That may be in your śāstra. But what is the extra thing? That chanting, that's all right. We also go to the church and sing hymns also." Satsvarūpa: The fact is you do not know who God is. You do not know how God works. So... Prabhupāda: "No, I know in my own way." Satsvarūpa: That is not sufficient. You should develop, become educated. Prabhupāda: "But what is the use of it, having sufficiency? What is the distinction, that you have got sufficient love and therefore there is distin...?" Satsvarūpa: Ah, I may not have sufficient love, but one who does, he'll increase every way... Prabhupāda: "But then if you have no sufficient love, you cannot preach. Why you are preaching for me? You just show me example." Akṣayānanda: You may be a very good example, but we see most of the Christians do not even follow the teachings. For example... Prabhupāda: Here you have come to the real point. Here he has come to the point. That is the point. If you love God, then why you disobey His order? That means you do not love God. That is the real point. [break] ...is that you love God for getting something from Him. But we do not love God for getting something. This is another point. So the first point is this. This is very important point, that if you love God, why you are becoming disobedient to the orders of God? That is the most important point. Pañcadraviḍa: But if the man says, "I am Muslim; how you can say I am disobedient to the laws of God? I am following my own religion?" Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall come to the Muslims next. First of all let us talk with the Christians. Satsvarūpa: We are always arguing with them. They say they are following. They are allowed to kill animals. Pañcadraviḍa: "I am accepting Christ. Therefore I am saved. I am following closely Christianity." Prabhupāda: No, no. If you love God, then why you are disobeying His order. That is my charge, first thing. God says, "Thou shalt not kill," but why you are killing? This is the charge I give to the Christians. Satsvarūpa: Yes, you always do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. There they are captured. Pañcadraviḍa: But everybody is killing. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...vegetables are also alive. Prabhupāda: No, everyone... We are not talking of everyone. We are talking of you. You love God. So why you are killing? No, killing... There is open declaration, "Thou shall not kill." So you are deliberately disobeying. Then where is the love? Pañcadraviḍa: "But even if I become vegetarian, still, I will..." Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not questioned. God says that you shall not kill. But you are killing. Where is your love? You cannot argue with God. Then you do not love. You cannot put your argument, logic, "What God has said I must do." That is not... Pañcadraviḍa: "But God did not mean us not to eat. We must eat." Prabhupāda: God did not... That means you have to eat only meat. You have nothing to eat? Pañcadraviḍa: But if I eat a plant, it is also killing. Prabhupāda: That is your argument. But God says that "Thou shalt not kill." You cannot argue. This is the first theory... Suppose if I say something to you, order, you cannot argue. That is not obedience. Obedience means without argument accepted. That is obedience. That is love. Satsvarūpa: The other important point is that we love God not for getting some reward. You say that the other important thing is that this person claims to be pious, but he approaches God for material reward. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is business. That is not love. I go to somebody and flatter him to get something. Just like a shopkeeper does also like that. He flatters the customers in so many ways to sell goods so that he can make some profit. So there is no question of love. Akṣayānanda: But that "I am following Jesus Christ and I am a vegetarian," so that's all right, isn't it? Prabhupāda: I am following Jesus Christ? Akṣayānanda: That "I am a vegetarian. I do not eat meat. I don't kill. I do not kill." *Prabhupāda: Oh, therefore I am a better Christian, better than you. Love... Therefore the Bhāgavata is perfect. Bhāgavata says that... Bhagavad*-gītā says... Kṛṣṇa says that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So we are obeying Kṛṣṇa. We offer patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ. And we eat the remains of the foodstuff. Therefore we love. That is the proof. But you are not loving Jesus Christ because you are disobeying the order. Pañcadraviḍa: How disobeying if the person says, "I am vegetarian. I do not kill. I am a Christian, but I am vegetarian, I do not kill animals?" Prabhupāda: Then you are all right. But they... Who put forward the argument that "You are also killing vegetable?" Then how can kill vegetable? *Nitai: In Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa... Just as you quoted. *Prabhupāda: The thing is that we must eat something. And vegetables also have got life. The nature's way is that one living entity is eating another living entity. It may be animal or it may be vegetable. The question is the obedience to the order of God. So when Jesus Christ says that "Thou shalt not kill," it means bigger animals. Killing is applied, from dictionary, if I kill a man, if I kill an animal, then this word is used. So he meant like that. And that is very reasonable. Because I am eating another living entity, that does not I can eat another man. So therefore Kṛṣṇa has specifically mentioned, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. After all, we have to eat. And if you take that all killing is the same, even by ordinary law, if I kill one tree, and if I kill one man, does it mean it is of the same degree? Even taking killing of plant, so there are comparative. But it is also necessity that we must eat something. So therefore here, perfect thing in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that He says that "You offer Me." "Offer Me" means "After My eating, you shall eat." Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Even by killing vegetable, you are also as sinful as killing animal, but because we offer to Kṛṣṇa, therefore we are not sinful. Kṛṣṇa wants it. Just like Kṛṣṇa wanted Arjuna to fight and kill the other party. Therefore Arjuna is not infected with the sin. So here Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Give me this foodstuff," and Kṛṣṇa knows that I will eat the remnants of the foodstuff. So I am not responsible. We have no very much study of the Muslim, but instead of criticizing others, better we shall preach our own cult. But if there is occasion when somebody attacks, then we should be prepared. But our positive business should be to inform people what is the nature of God, as they are stated in Bhagavad-gītā and in Bhāgavatam. Pañcadraviḍa: When we run into those people... Sometimes we run into Muslims, Jains, Christians, and usually what we do is we approach them on the basis of our welfare work. Because we have got our work where we are feeding persons in Māyāpura, we are doing different..., opening schools. So we approach them that God is also one. There is one God and we are doing work for bringing all the people to God. In Māyāpura we are feeding so many Muslims every day. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good preaching. But when there is argument, when somebody says, you should be prepared to argue with them. It stopped? We shall go another round? Akṣayānanda: I think it has stopped. Satsvarūpa: No rain. Pañcadraviḍa: [break] ...dressed in shiny saffron. He is dressed in black. He looked like nescience and you look like the sunshine, standing next to him. He is wearing all this black with a little bit of red trimming on it, looked like nightime. [break] ...I met a Christian, and he said "You have got your guru and you are following him. He teaches you by his example. We have got our pope. He is our example of what Christianity is. He is the head of Christian order, and he himself is eating meat. Now how you can say...?" Prabhupāda: Then how he can be pope? Pañcadraviḍa: "But how you can say he is not the best Christian? He is the head of all the Christians." Prabhupāda: But that means you are foolish and pope is also foolish. If he does not follow the orders of Jesus Christ, then how he becomes a pope? Therefore you are foolish. You have elected some foolish, another foolish man as your pope. That should be the right answer, that "If he does not follow Christ, how he becomes pope?" Pañcadraviḍa: He is not killing. Prabhupāda: Then why he is appointed as head? He must order. Otherwise if you are not following pope, then you are not Christian. He does not kill, then you should not kill. And why does he not order? Pañcadraviḍa: He himself is eating meat. So it must be all right. Prabhupāda: Then how he is pope? Pañcadraviḍa: But he is knowing what Christianity is the best. Therefore he is in charge. He says it is all right to eat meat. Prabhupāda: No, no, how... Then first of all how you can elect him as in charge? Then you are fool. Pañcadraviḍa: All the popes for hundreds of years have all eaten meat. Prabhupāda: Then hundreds of years you are fool. Therefore you are intelligent? Does it mean? Pañcadraviḍa: But when Jesus said, "Thou shalt not kill," he meant humans; he did not mean animals. Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation. Akṣayānanda: But Jesus was a shepherd and there were many, many sheep. What did they do with all the sheep? Prabhupāda: They eat? Pañcadraviḍa: They must. Prabhupāda: They must. That is your inference. Pañcadraviḍa: What else...? In the middle of desert...? Babylon, Israel is all desert country. What will they do with sheep? They are not making wool coats. Prabhupāda: Then why he has said, "Thou shalt not kill"? Then hypocrisy. Then you reject Jesus complete. He is a hypocrite. Yes. That is the conclusion. How can you follow hypocrite? Huh? Is that all right? If Jesus Christ himself killed animals and he said, "Thou shalt not kill," then he is a hypocrite. Then he cannot preach. He is a hypocrite. You are bringing Christ for condemnation. But how a hypocrite can be the head or can be the religious man or can be... Akṣayānanda: It is not that we are saying he is a hypocrite. Prabhupāda: He is proving. Akṣayānanda: He himself, the Christian is saying that Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: So why is he following? Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: They still eat the sheep. Satsvarūpa: The main thing they usually say is that kill means murder. That man at Bhaktivedanta Manor, that priest, he said the original Hebrew, the word means "murder." So this is an instruction to mankind not to murder, but it is not... But they have other places in the scripture where they point out that the animal is allowed for man to eat. So they just were showing us their scriptures. Prabhupāda: It is said, "It is murder." Satsvarūpa: Yes, that "Thou shalt not murder." That it has been changed to "kill." Prabhupāda: Originally it was murder? Satsvarūpa: That is what that priest said to you in Bhaktivedanta Manor. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, he may say. What was previously, we are not concerned. But you have left already this Jewish Old Testament. You have got New Testament. You are not Jewish. So why do you bring that Jewish for your defense? You have already rejected it. Pañcadraviḍa: But they say we accept both Old and New Testament. The Christians do not say we only have New Testament. They say we accept the old and the new. Prabhupāda: Then why you have changed? Pañcadraviḍa: Because the Old Testament never mentions Christ, but the New Testament is all about Christ. Prabhupāda: Then it is rejected. If you have changed the tenets of Old Testament, that means you have rejected. Pañcadraviḍa: No, not changed. In Old Testament the messiaḥ, he is predicted, but activities of the messiaḥ, they are not given. Prabhupāda: The question is the Old Testament, you say that there was the word "murder." Why you have changed? You accept Old Testament or reject? Satsvarūpa: Accept the statement should be "murder." Prabhupāda: But why it is "kill"? Pañcadraviḍa: Wrong translation. Prabhupāda: Wrong translation. Pañcadraviḍa: Yes. Prabhupāda: : They are fools, all set of fools. Useless. See one thing and write one thing. Then you are not perfect. Bhrama pramāda. You commit mistake. Therefore your instruction is useless, useless. Because you commit mistake, therefore your instruction is useless. And that actually they are doing. As it is suitable, they are changing the words of Bible. They are useless. Things which are changeable, that cannot be accepted as scripture. Scriptural injunction means you cannot change. Just like we accept the Vedic scripture but don't change it. That example I have given many times. Because Lord Buddha wanted to change Vedic literature, therefore he is rejected. Although Lord Buddha is so... We worship him as incarnation of..., but he was rejected. You cannot change. Immediately you are rejected. [break] Pañcadraviḍa: ...Christians, they were arguing with me they said, "God has given us the pig to eat." Prabhupāda: It is said in the Bible? Pañcadraviḍa: No. Prabhupāda: Then where is this nonsense? How he can say? Actually, Christians cannot eat any meat because the word is "Thou shalt not kill." [break] Pañcadraviḍa: Christ Himself was distributing fish, to the hungry, to the poor. He gave out so much fish. Prabhupāda: That was not killing fish. That is my support. Pañcadraviḍa: We do not kill the fish either. We simply purchase it in the supermarket. Prabhupāda: Yes. Directly, fish, as soon as taken from the water, he dies. And Christ... Then how can you support Christ that if he has done killing business himself and he instructs others not to kill? Akṣayānanda: Does that mean you are calling Jesus Christ a hypocrite? Prabhupāda: Hypocrite. Akṣayānanda: Who is calling him a hypocrite, us or you? Prabhupāda: You want to support your sinful activities by proving Christ as hypocrite. This is your business. You are such a Christian. And your love for Christ is such. [break] ...that we have to follow the instruction of the superior. Even if he acts something against the instruction, you should not follow it. You have to follow his words. You cannot imitate his action. That is real obedience. You should... If he has done something against his instruction, you should know that might have been some particular occasion he has done it, but we are not concerned with that. We are concerned with his order. That is obedience. He has not ordered me to do this thing. So my duty is what he has ordered to me. That is my only duty. What he has done in particular occasion, that is not my duty to see. Just like there is a Bengali verse, Pañcadraviḍa: ...argument being that Christ has said "Thou shalt not kill." That is one of ten commandments. Ten commandments are social codes for how the people are to live. Now, the people that are Christ's disciples, they are all fishermen. His whole community is fishermen and sheep herders. They are always... He is having fisherman community. So he did not mean for them to give up their engagement. They were all living as fishermen. He told them, "Thou shalt not kill." Therefore we can only conclude that Christ meant "Thou shalt not kill other human beings" because he was coming at a time, teaching principles how to live with each other... Prabhupāda: No, we don't allow to comment or interpret on the words of... That we cannot allow. You cannot interpret in that way, in your own logical... That is not allowed. Pañcadraviḍa: "But we say that when Christ said, Thou shalt not kill, and you say it refers all living beings, we say that is your interpretation because Christ is coming to teach fishermen. He never told them to give up their occupation. They continued to live as fishermen. Continued to live as sheep herders. He knew that killing was going on. Therefore his statement, 'Thou shalt not kill,' must refer to human beings because he was living in the community. He was teaching by his example." *Prabhupāda: But I can say, "Why not to the animals? You can eat fish only." Then I'll write book like that. Jesus Christ allowed the fishermen to fish, so then you can fish. Why you are killing cows? That will be my argument. If you are actually following Christ, all right, you can take fish, but why you are killing animals, and other animals? Why you are going that "Because Christ has allowed some fish killing, therefore everyone should be killed"? What is this nonsense? You follow strictly. All right, fish*-killing. Pañcadraviḍa: What is the difference between fish killing and goat killing? Prabhupāda: Then everyone will say what is the difference between animal killing and and man killing? Pañcadraviḍa: There is big difference between animal killing and... Prabhupāda: Why big difference? Pañcadraviḍa: If a man goes into the road he runs over a dog, there will not be so much punishment. But if a man goes into the road, he runs over... Prabhupāda: That you have made, your laws. You have made that, if you kill a man and if you kill an animal, that is not equal. That is your... But that does not mean when it is said, "Thou shalt not kill"... This is no argument. Pañcadraviḍa: That law was made for some reason. Because human being and animal are not on equal levels. Human being has soul, but animal does not. Prabhupāda: Then you interpret in your own way. That is actually... (end) Morning Walk -- April 23, 1974, Hyderabad Mahāṁsa: ...persons serving, taking people who are serving Kṛṣṇa into serving their sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Engage them. māyā... It is not actually māyā's fault, this māyā's business that all living entities who are within this material world, they have come to enjoy. Enjoy means sense gratification. So māyā is kind enough to give them all facilities. That is māyā's business. māyā has a machine, these three qualities, and as I want to enjoy, so there are departmental arrangements, "Give him facilities like this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Satsvarūpa: But the facility turns out to be slaps. Prabhupāda: Slaps... We will go on the street? Mahāṁsa: It's not very... It's all right. *Prabhupāda: Let us see. [break] Just like children, they are given some facilities. They must work according to that plan. Otherwise sometimes there is slap, "Huh, why you are doing like that?" like that. [break] ...your country. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrā-bhaumya idya-dhīḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Bhaumya means bhūmi. Bhūmi, the land, idya-dhīḥ: "This is my duty: to serve my country, to serve my land." This is māyā. The rascal, he is engaged to "Do your duty to your country," and what is the country? Suppose if I do my duty and I may be driven away from my country next life, because there is no guarantee that I will have to take my birth... Just like one astrologer has explained that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Scandinavia. (laughs) There is chance. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You will have to change your body. Now, where it will be changed, how it will be changed, what kind of body you will get*-that is not in your hands. That is not in your hands. You cannot say, "Oh, I am Prime Minister. I must get such and such body." That is not going to be accepted. But these foolish rascal people, they do not understand it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. I am acting under certain infection. So I am infecting, say, some venereal disease. So I must suffer for it. Mahāṁsa: Mahatma Gandhi worked so hard for his country and his own countrymen shot him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, these fools, they do not know what is service, what is country, what is... They do not know this is māyā. [break] By nature's mercy, they got this nice human form of body, civilized. There is sufficient food, supplied by nature. You eat and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Take advantage of the śāstras, lessons left by Kṛṣṇa and His devotees. Live peacefully, happily, and go back wherefrom you have come. But whole thing is spoiled by these misleaders. "Do your duty to your country." (laughs) What is that duty? I am working under the influence of material nature, and what is my duty? My only duty is to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my duty. [break] ...because we are prescribing so many duties, and there is no God. That's all. [break] Akṣayānanda: You said that everyone could become a brāhmaṇa, in your lecture, last night. But at the same time there must always be the legs of society. Prabhupāda: Legs are already there. Everyone is now legs. So they can be promoted to become heads. What is the difficulty? Everyone is in the eighth class. Does it mean that he cannot pass MA examination? If he is trained up, he can pass M.A. exam... Akṣayānanda: But as long as there is material world, there will always be śūdras. Prabhupāda: They are all śūdras. Not will be. All, everyone is śūdras. This movement is to promote the śūdras to the highest class, Vaiṣṇava, more than brāhmaṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Everyone is rascal, śūdra. [break] ...śūdras should be elevated, elevated, but when even a śūdra is engaged in the service of the Lord, he becomes transcendental, above brāhmaṇa. [break] Akṣayānanda: It said that eight people were shot in Aurangabad with student riots, and the police got their guns and they started to shoot all the people. The same thing is happening in Gaya. The students are protesting against this and that. It said that they were protesting against degradation. Prabhupāda: Degradation? Akṣayānanda: Yes. That is supposed to be the reason for their rebellion. They are protesting against corruption and degradation. Prabhupāda: But the rascals, why they themselves do not, be not reformed? Protesting against degradation. Why you are degraded? What is that protest? You are degraded. You reform yourself. That they will not do. Protest against degradation. Are you not degraded? Are you pure? So what is the use of protesting? You reform yourself. They can protest in this way that our guardians, our government, they have degraded ourselves. But that's all right. But guardian is a fool, your father is a fool. But why you are remaining as a fool? That they will not an... If we say, "Now you come to us. We shall raise you from degradation," that they will not do. That they will not agree. Now go to them, all these students, that "You are thinking that you are degraded. So why you should be, mean dog...? Come on, we shall reform you. We shall give you the highest post, brahminical post. Give up these four principles." That they will not do. Will they do? Akṣayānanda: No. One may come out of a thousand. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to remain in degradation, and they will protest again. Therefore to save the degradation, this cātur*-varṇyam must be established. That I... The ideal class. People will follow, "Oh, here is the ideal class." So we are trying to make an ideal class of Kṛṣṇa conscious people. And if you treat yourself as degraded, then who will care for you? You should remain an ideal class. People will follow gradually. Mahāṁsa: If a brāhmaṇa class is created, then automatically the kṣatriyas and vaiśyas and śūdras will be changed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The ideal, if you be ideal class, gradually they will take your advice, what to do. Then immediately the whole degradation will be finished. Satsvarūpa: Why will they take advice? Will they actually be attracted to the virtues? Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Just like people come to see me. Similarly, everyone comes. Akṣayānanda: Everyone is attracted to you, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you should be such qualified that people will come to consult you, to take your advice, and... That is the way. [break] ...one after another. Just like if you are a qualified lawyer, when one has difficulty, he comes, consults you, what to do. If you are a qualified physician, then people will come to consult you. So you become qualified, ideal; *people will come. Otherwise who will care for you? [break] ...principles. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat*-eating and chanting. These five things only, if you strictly remain on these principles, see how you are respectable. Immediately you'll be respected. Is it not? Akṣayānanda: Everyone knows that it should be done. Prabhupāda: Yes. Akṣayānanda: Everyone knows in their heart that these things are right. Before I came to the movement, when I read the Back to Godhead magazine, they are doing these things, I was not doing them all. Prabhupāda: No, we are making propaganda in USA. They are attracting attention of the people. Yes. They are saying nice. Akṣayānanda: Whenever we see those four rules... Prabhupāda: These rascals, they cannot give up even smoking, ordinary thing. And they become leader. Mahāṁsa: It is not very difficult to give up. If one is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not difficult to give up these four things. *Prabhupāda: Not at all. Very easily, in one second. If you have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo... [Bg. 18.66]. These are sinful activities. Immediately Kṛṣṇa will help you, "All right." Immediately. Kṛṣṇa said. Is He bluffing? If you sincerely take to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, immediately the effect will be you give up all this nonsense. They don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, they don't believe in Kṛṣṇa's word; neither they will surrender; neither they will give up. So where is the reformation? They want to remain in degradation and protesting... This is māyā. This is the called, prakṣepātmika śakti, to keep him in degradation, that "You rascal, you have come to enjoy material happiness. So I will keep you in this degradation and you suffer. I shall kick on your face." This is māyā. So what is the result of this protest against degradation? Akṣayānanda: They get shot. The police come and shoot them. *Prabhupāda: That's all. And tax you and get fat salary. That's all. This is government. They will degrade you and take your money and enjoy themselves. That's all. [break] ...revolution in India. Yes. Because people are hungry. There is no food. A very great revolution. So long they were under Vedic culture, they were suffering. Suffering in this way*-tolerating. Now that culture is gone. Now they will be violent. Just like in other countries. If you pinch somebody on and on, there will be a violent protest. In the beginning you may tolerate. But if you go on pinching, pinching, pinching, how long you will tolerate? This is India's condition. Britishers, when they were ruling, had some responsibility. Although they were exploiting, but they were arranging for sufficient food and other things. But these people are irresponsib..., simply personal. "Whatever money I can get, that's all." This is going on. All these so-called ministers, they come to the post for taking money, as much as possible. [break] It must have been belonging to some Nawab, Nizam. It is aristocratic building, not ordinary building. [break] Mahāṁsa: ...it could be favorable for our movement? Because we can, people will be very much frustrated at that time? *Prabhupāda: Well, people are now shameless, you see? They are being kicked in so many ways. We are giving the prescription, "Here is the remedy," but they are not taking to it. But they will take it. Some of them will take it, provided you remain also ideal. If you become also degraded, then who will take it? Ideal character, ideal behavior, ideal preaching. People will appreciate. [break] ...pure character or position, people will take, in any condition. There may be revolution or no revolution. They will take it. [break] ...that our movement is actually good. They will take in any condition. That standard we must maintain. Somebody... Yes, Balavanta, when he was speaking against smoking, one candidate-he was important man*-he was smoking. Immediately he wanted to hide. (laughter) So immediate effect was there. He understood that "Yes, this is bad habit." So people will take it, any condition, provided you are ideal. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. He teaches others by behaving Himself. "Example is better than precept." If you cannot rise early in the morning, then how can you ask others to rise early in the morning? What is the effect? There is no effect. We have got business early in the morning, to attend maṅgala ārati. And if you sleep yourself and teach others, so who will take it? [break] ...we have introduced. Very, very simple thing. But still, if he cannot... [break] ...(indistinct) Mahārāja. He is, he admitted him, smārta paṇḍita, but he cannot rise early in the morning. Never. And he is imitating the smārta paṇḍitas. You know that? Smārta, and one pot, and this and that and āsana (laughing). And "I had some..., consult with some smārta paṇḍita," and the real business, to rise early in the morning, he will never do. He will never do. Brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means he must rise early in the morning. What kind of brāhmaṇa? Oh, he is coming. (laughs) Early in the morning at half past seven. If he walks early in the morning, all his disease will be cured. That he will not do. After all, everyone can do after performing maṅgala ārati, take a morning walk. Bathing. [break] How did you know we were here? Pradyumna: I asked (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. If you rise early and take a walk, all your ailments will be cured. [break] If a gentleman wants to walk early in the morning, he must have his dog friend. Mahāṁsa: They have a saying that dog is man's best friend now. Instead of God being man's best friend, they have made it dog is man's best friend. Prabhupāda: Just like he is a dog. [break] ...strike. Simply strike, protest. Where is happiness? [break] ...unnecessary spending. Unnecessary spending, then why you have allowed opening cinema? One side advertisement, "Unnecessary spending," and the other side so many rascal things, so people will spend for that. Akṣayānanda: But they will say, "You must have some time to relax." Prabhupāda: That is unnecessary. Everyone will say, "What I am spending unnecessarily that is my relax." [break] ...government officer will have a big bungalow and now there is act that "Others, if he has got a big bungalow like this bungalow, this is unnecessary." Now it is prepared to act(?). And for minister, it is relax, and for common man it is unnecessary. This is then... "Smoking for me, it is relax, and for you it is unnecessary." These rascals are preaching like that. If smoking is unnecessary, it is unnecessary for me and for you also. "No. For me it is relax." [break] Is that their advertisement? Save money? Mahāṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And as soon as you save, they will take income tax. Mahāṁsa: They have a wealth tax. So if you save that means you have more wealth, and then they tax. *Prabhupāda: And they will "relax" by drinking, "relax" minister. "You save money for our relaxation. That is our necessary. You don't spend money." And people are... Because they see that "If I save, it will be taken away. Let me spend lavishly." Yes. Just like we stayed there at Mr. Patel's house. There are three men only in the family: Mr. Patel, his son and his daughter*-in-law. They have got eight cars, big, big cars, Rolls Royce. And about twenty servants. They know that "They will take it away. Better spend." Everyone is doing that. Because they know, "If I save, one day the government will take 98 per cent of my savings. Then why save? Better spend." They cannot give in religious institution. If they say they want to give something, no, that will not allowed. Yes. The whole idea is that "You save, and one day I shall take the whole money and we shall distribute amongst the ministers, Indira Gandhi and company. And we relax. We are working so hard, how to impose taxes upon you. So we must have relax." This is going on. Vicious society. [break] ...open. Let us open. (end) Morning Walk -- April 24, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: ...drawing the attention of the papers. I know so many papers, they will publish his statement. There are four, five, ten letters, but about our... What is his name? Devotee (1): Lieberman. Prabhupāda: Lieberman is original name. Satsvarūpa: Amarendra. Prabhupāda: Amarendra. Satsvarūpa: Yes, he said he's dominating the... Prabhupāda: Ah? Satsvarūpa: He's dominating the public attention. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very success. [break] ...that he's dominating? Satsvarūpa: That's what he wrote in his letter. Prabhupāda: Ah. Satsvarūpa: He thinks that he's going to win. [break] Prabhupāda: ... that these rascal leaders, they cannot give us any comfort. All over the world. Here in the Gujarat, the students have insulted the leader, you know? So horribly, they have dragged the prime minister, chief minister, dragged him and set up and seated on an ass's back. In this way he was insulted. Mahāṁśa: Prime Minister. Prabhupāda: The chief minister. Mahāṁśa: The chief minister. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: This was in Jerusalem? Prabhupāda: Ah? No, no, is Gujarat, here. Devotee: Gujarat. Prabhupāda: The next province. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...speaking all the words that he has learned from him. Very good. Very nicely he's presenting. Mahāṁśa: He's an elderly gentleman? *Prabhupāda: No, no, only twenty*-five. [break] ...all these culprits, the burglars, the thieves, they should be punished exemplary. (chuckles) Yes, that should be done. [break] One telegram: "Come immediately Bombay. Everything is all right, Kṛṣṇa has blessed you." [break] I mean to say intelligent in their part, they'll at least give a chance to him. Yes. [break] ...doing all right. Satsvarūpa: He said he didn't feel well, he was not going to take a walk. Prabhupāda: Hm? Satsvarūpa: He said he felt too... Prabhupāda: He has come. Satsvarūpa: Oh. Prabhupāda: That he thinks always, not to take walk, but when he takes, then it's good. [break] ...dharma, what is dharma, religion. Mahāṁśa: I was not there yesterday. Prabhupāda: Oh, you were not there. So what arrangement is made now? Mahāṁśa: I got all the bus tickets for the devotees... Prabhupāda: Hm. Mahāṁśa: ...and for the plane tickets there was a little difficulty. I don't know how many plane tickets are available yet, but I definitely got minimum two. I don't know if I'll be able to get four, but I'm trying. I'm first on the waiting list, so... [break] Prabhupāda: ...our nice program. Mahāṁśa: Yes, I told him to send a telegram in any case, but he has not sent, but if the..., if the program was not nice, then he would have definitely have sent some message to cancel the program. [break] Prabhupāda: ...get help from them by his bogus program. Mahāṁśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Vishva Hindu Parishad. What is this nonsense Vishva Hindu...? (chuckles) He does not know what is the meaning of Hindu. And his jñāna*-yajña. Gītā jñāna yajña. He does not understand even a word of Gītā, and this rascal is preaching Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on. And he has made some name, people after him. People means if you flatter him, that "Whatever you are doing, it is all right." Mahāṁśa: They will... *Prabhupāda: Then they will be very much pleased. And as soon as you criticize, that "You are doing this wrong, you will suffer." "Oh, yes, this Swamiji is not (indistinct)." That is going on everywhere. In the name of religion you do all nonsense rascaldom, and the leader approves, "Yes, you can do." Vivekananda did it. "Yes, there is no difference between eating meat and not eating eat in terms of religion system." He preached this, and all the sannyāsīs of the Ramakrishna Mission they eat meat, they drink, they have woman secretary, everything. This Chinmayananda is also like that. I know his whole mischief. Unless one is purely Kṛṣṇa conscious, one cannot give up all these bad habits. This is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa [SB 11.2.42]. One... Unless one is substantially advanced in kṛṣṇa-bhakti, they cannot give up this material attachment-illicit sex, meat eating*-they cannot. It is impossible. So even in the name of swami or big, big yogis... They are doing all these things. Especially those who go in foreign countries... In USA illicit sex is very cheap. Everything is very cheap. Yes. Intoxication very cheap, meat-eating very cheap, gambling, very cheap, so when they get this cheap amenities, they forget their so-called spiritual life. Akṣayānanda: Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Hm. Akṣayānanda: One of our friends went to hear Chinmayananda, and he came back to the temple and he said, "Oh, he was speaking very nicely." Prabhupāda: Hm. Akṣayānanda: So Mahāṁśa Swami said, "What did he say?" Prabhupāda: Hm. Akṣayānanda: "I do not know." Prabhupāda: Who is he? Mahāṁśa: Hariprasad's sons. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Oh. Mahāṁśa: Rai Krishan (?). Prabhupāda: That is the disease. Akṣayānanda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: They just speak very big words so that the language looks very nice, but people don't understand a word what they are saying. Prabhupāda: (Prabhupāda talks meaningless words, imitating the rascals; *devotees laugh) They go on speaking like this. And people, "Oh, how amazing!" Simply give some grammatical form and talk all nonsense, people will appreciate. Jugglery. This is called jugglery. The Māyāvādī paṇḍitas also do that. All the Māyāvādīs are against me, because I am talking about Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and they screw their own meaning by jugglery of words. So they are all enemies. The Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, smārta-paṇḍitas, all of them. [break] ...has constructed a śiva-liṅga temple. *Mahāṁśa: Śiva*-liṅga. *Prabhupāda: Śiva*-liṅga. You have seen Śiva-liṅga? Mahāṁśa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: A temple of... There are so many hundreds and thousands of Śiva temples, but nobody has exhibited śiva*-liṅga, big śiva-liṅga on the head of the temple. Akṣayānanda: Where is that, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Bombay. And he's speaking on Gītār Gān. Gītār Gān means to construct a big śiva*-liṅga temple. He's proving himself a rascal by his activities. He's a rascal number one. He has gone many times to foreign countries, but not a single foreign student he has got. [break] ...from atheistic fools who are not prepared to follow any rules and regulations, they are after him. Akṣayānanda: That Sai Baba too... Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Akṣayānanda: Many of those young boys and girls, they are potential devotees. They are just in it for a bit of fun. A bit of fashion or fun. Prabhupāda: Similarly Rajneesh. [break] ...very good intelligence, Lieberman. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he's speaking very nicely. He's fit for that position. Similarly our, what is his name? Satsvarūpa: Balavanta. Prabhupāda: Balavanta. He's also very nice. If we get some important votes in the government, then our mission will be successful. This, our philosophy is being properly ventilated, it is coming in the papers, isn't it? On account of this political leadership. And I see that his statements are published profusely. Not with other contemporaries. And what they'll speak? They have no sense, they have no leadership idea. Satsvarūpa: Some devotees express the fear that after some time all these bogus groups, they will start running political men, too, and then the field may be ruined, that... Prabhupāda: Hm? *Satsvarūpa: Soon, they say, especially the Bala*-yogi, he always follows whatever we do, when we go out and distribute books, they do, when we have kīrtana, they do. So there's the fear that soon they'll all be running for office, all these bogus men, because we are doing. Prabhupāda: But they cannot say anything. Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They have... This, the followers of the Bala*-yogi they're simply rascals. Devotee: They'll just be more exposed... They'll have to study your books (indistinct). Prabhupāda: They cannot even speak... Ah? Devotee: They'll have to study your books to find out what to say. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our, what is this? Sai, Sai, Siddha*-svarūpa. He also tried to imitate ourself, and by reading, reading, he became my disciple. Although he has the same mentality, still, still he does not find any better solution than our philosophy. The Karandhara, he went away (chuckles) and does not find any solution. You see? Satsvarūpa: "I find no alternative to Kṛṣṇa's service," he said. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the final. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is final. [break] Mahāṁśa: ...start all over the world? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Devotee: We should... Prabhupāda: If we'll be successful in America, then all over, everywhere it will be followed. [break] (Hindi) Mahāṁśa: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Today one very big minister is going to come. Prabhupāda: Hm. Mahāṁśa: He was a minister. His name is Channa Reddy. Prabhupāda: Ah. Mahāṁśa: He used to be running for the chief ministership. He's very, very popular, but there was some mischief he did, for which he was taken to court and exposed. Prabhupāda: What is that mischief? Mahāṁśa: I don't remember exactly, but he was taken to court and exposed and he was expelled from entering into any... Prabhupāda: Party. Mahāṁśa: ...any elections for five years. So now his period is finishing, his five years is finishing, and he is going to stand again, and seems that he's very, very popular, he has a good chance. And he's our Life Member... Prabhupāda: Oh, he's a Life Member? Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: He studies our books? Mahāṁśa: Oh, yes, he has taken our books and he especially asked that "I am reading these books and please give me." And he attended all the three days of the exhibition grounds. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mahāṁśa: You maybe remember, no? Devotee: Yes. Mahāṁśa: Channa Reddy. He's very nice. He'll be coming today at ten o'clock. [break] Prabhupāda: ...the modern politicians. Here at the present moment their philosophy is that one must be very cunning diplomat, then he's successful politician. This is their philosophy. The most crooked man, like Cāṇakya. But our philosophy is that the political head should be like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Lord Rāmacandra, that is difference. Here Churchill or Hitler or similar man, crooked man... Without being crooked one cannot become politician. Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, he said that "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." Consistency. You must change. [break] Mahāṁśa: You should never trust a politician, so if you cannot trust a politician, why we elect him as a leader, why should he be a leader? Prabhupāda: Yes. No, "Do not trust" means you are also not trustworthy, nobody trusts you, and you should also not. That is their philosophy. All these big, big politicians, just like United Nations. The same philosophy is going on. Nobody trusts anyone, but they speak big, big... Akṣayānanda: Did he mean because the politician will degrade... (end) Interview with Minister -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for spreading Christianity in this country. What we are spending in the foreign countries? Minister: The last time in our state, in this (indistinct), sent thirteen (?) lakhs in America to provide one temples, Veṅkaṭeśvara temple and (Hindi) Vighneśvara temple there. Prabhupāda: Where? Minister: In America. Prabhupāda: America is a big place, three thousand miles, square miles. So I don't think any temple has been erected in New York. Minister: No, it is proposed to. *Prabhupāda: Temple... Just like these Christian missionaries, they constructed so many churches. But those churches are now being closed. In London, I have got specific knowledge, hundreds of churches are no more being used as church. Some of them are being used as go*-down. And some of the churches have been purchased by other religious sect. We have purchased one church in Los Angeles. So opening temple is good but who will maintain the spirit of temple worship? Minister: That is by (Hindi). *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Therefore there must be side by side propaganda who can maintain the temples. (Hindi) Oh, this is anna*-prasāda, so I will take later on. (Hindi) That temple is being constructed under whose supervision? Minister: That Ganapati Sthapati, in our state. Indian man: Sthapati is a temple engineer. He will lay out the plans as per the (indistinct) śāstra and as per the rules laid down for the construction all temples in India. No other (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has gone there? No. Indian man: Once he had been to New York. They are now preparing all these idols, etc. They will be sent by sea. Prabhupāda: So what Deity will be installed there? *Indian man: Lord Veṅkaṭeśvara, Subrahmaṇiya*-sat(?) Swami, Gaṇapati, Vighneśvara. Minister: And Pancai Tattva. Prabhupāda: Pancai? Minister: He is Rasa,(?) Sūrya... *Prabhupāda: Oh, pañcopāsanā. [break] He is Rāmānuja*-sampradāya? Indian man: Yes, Vaiṣṇava sampradāya. Prabhupāda: But the Rāmānuja sampradāya do not recommend pañcopāsanā. In the Rāmānuja sampradāya there is no pañcopāsanā. Indian man: No, these are built by Hindees (?) and other custom. This temple is giving only Vighneśvara and Veṅkaṭeśvara. But the construction of other temples, they are raising funds. Prabhupāda: Oh, local money. Indian man: Yes. throughout India and also in America. *Prabhupāda: That, they are raising funds for millions of years. (laughs) I know that. Birla about... Yes, about fifty years ago there was contemplation of, that Birla would construct a very big temple in London. But there was no temple at all. Now since I have gone, I have established two temples, not very big, but still one of the temple is on the seventeen acre of land. A little outside London. One big musician, George Harrison, he has donated that temple, fifty*-five lakhs. And we have got one temple in rented house... Indian man: 10:30 for darśana. Prabhupāda: 10:30. What is the time now? Indian man: 9:30. Prabhupāda: So, you prepare yourself to go. If prasāda is there, why don't you take it? Finish. Mahāṁsa: We will take at noon time. We take now? *Prabhupāda: Yes, go and take. Prasāda prāpti*-mātreṇa bhoktavyam. Go and take prasādam. It is time, one hour. (end) Room Conversation -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati Satsvarūpa: He said, "You write in your books that your movement by Lord Caitanya is the..., as if it's the most exclusive thing." He said, "But actually, in India the Rāmānuja is a more prominent Vaiṣṇava sect." So, as I understand our claim, it's based on the fact that we worship Kṛṣṇa in a higher form, in Kṛṣṇaloka, and they worship Kṛṣṇa which leads to Vaikuṇṭha. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...quarter there is no cinema song. Bhaja gopālam. (there is music playing in background, recording of a boy or woman singing "bhaja gopāla") Satsvarūpa: Śrīnivāsa (?) said every... [break] ...is controlled by the temple here. Even the government doesn't control. Prabhupāda: This is all temple here around (indistinct). [break] Satsvarūpa: ...prominence. [break] Indian man: We came here yesterday. We went to the temple three times and just for a long... Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Indian man: This is my wife and daughter. You came yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes, I came yesterday at about eleven. Indian man: We saw you in the evening going to the temple. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very nice place. Indian man: Very nice, beautiful place. Very inspiring. Where's (indistinct) American? (?) Prabhupāda: I am, of course, Indian, but I have got my headquarters in America. (chuckles) Yes. Indian man: America. (chuckles) I think I have seen you at Bombay once. Prabhupāda: Yes, Bombay I have got my headquarters. Indian man: And your friends were there at the airport, Santa Cruz Airport, and you came by plane, some two years back I remember. Prabhupāda: No, I am going every year. Two times, three times, I have to go all round the world. Indian man: I respectfully request you your name, please. Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. That's all. Call me Prabhupāda. I am preaching this cult, what you have come to see, this being expanded all over the world. Indian man: Yes, yes. It's very good. Prabhupāda: And we have got about hundred temples. Indian man: At every America? Prabhupāda: No, no, all over the world. In America I have got forty temples. Indian man: Forty temples, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. In England we have got about five. And France, in German, we have got four. Indian man: In Germany also. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Germany, Sweden, Rome, and Australia. Indian man: They are also... They are very devoted to our creed, our religion? *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śa... [Bg. 18.66]. That is the only religion. Indian man: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Everything is not religion. It is cheating. Only religion is to surrender to the Lord. That is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ. *Indian man: I am a Vaiṣṇavite, you see. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, ahaṁ tvāṁ pāpebhyo... [Bg. 18.66]. Prabhupāda: That is, religion. That is religion. Mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ. Indian man: Oṁ namo nārāyaṇa (recites mantra). These are our, is our mantra. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you are Vaiṣṇava. The Vaiṣṇava, that is real form of religion. Others, they are not religion. It has been rejected in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra [SB 1.1.2]. Atra, kaitavaḥ religion is rejected. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Indian man: We have to surrender ourselves to God. That's all. *Prabhupāda: That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the laws, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name? Indian man: Raja Gopal Iyengar. Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa. Indian man: Brāhmaṇa. Vaiṣṇavite. Prabhupāda: Yes, Iyengars are all... Indian man: We belong to South India. Wife: Yesterday I saw you in the temple, I and my daughter. Prabhupāda: Yes. How many children you have got? Indian man: I have got three sons and four daughters. Prabhupāda: All daughters, sons. Indian man: Three sons, three daughters are married. This daughter is to be married. She is a doctorate. She has got M.Sc., Ph.D., in nuclear physics. She went to England for one year. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay in England? Daughter: Liverpool. Prabhupāda: Liverpool. I think we have got our branch. Daughter: Manchester, I have seen, Manchester. Prabhupāda: Manchester you have seen? Oh. Manchester, Liverpool, and London... London we have got two. Indian man: London, in London I have got my son. My son is there. Prabhupāda: Oh. What he is doing? Indian man: He is employed there. He's an accountant, cost accountant. Prabhupāda: Oh. So your children are also... (laughs) Indian man: I have got another boy in West Germany. Prabhupāda: West Germany. Berlin? Indian man: No, he is in Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Frankfurt. Oh, yes. Frankfurt is a big city. Sons are all married? Indian man: The last son is not married. Two sons are married. Three daughters are... This daughter is to be married. We are trying, not able to get a suitable groom, you see. With your blessings I hope we will succeed. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Nowadays it is very difficult job to get married. (everyone laughs) Wife: Suitable. Prabhupāda: Well, suitable cannot be. There is no suitable. Indian man: Difficult to find. Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, as the girl is grown up, any boy. Indian man: We used to marry at the age of ten, eleven. That is... Those days have been forty years back. Prabhupāda: I was also married. My wife was eleven years old. Indian man: My wife was eleven when she was married. I was only sixteen when I was married. Only a difference of four or five years. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And before that, I heard my father*-in-law, he was eleven years old, and my mother-in-law was seven years old. My eldest sister was born at nine years old. And I was born after her marriage. Indian man: Those old days are finished. Prabhupāda: All right, thank you. (end) Morning Walk -- April 29, 1974, Hyderabad Prabhupāda: Actually, if we become successful then all these things will be finished. Yes. [break] Devotee: They are attracted by wonderful things such as Sai Baba. He is doing so many wonderful things. People... Prabhupāda: That is, means rascal. He does not see Kṛṣṇa's wonderful. If you want to see wonderful things, why don't you see the more wonderful things? But they are foolish; they are captivated with small wonderful things. That means less intelligent. Just like small children, they will be amazed by seeing small wonderful things, but his father will not be. What is the amazement, wonderful thing, Sai Baba has done? If he is creator of gold, then why he is doing business of incense? You know that? He has a big incense business exactly like us. He can create gold? Why there is incense business? [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to give to His mother some gold when there was need of money. "Mother, I got this gold. So you can utilize it." The mother would think that "We are poor men, we have no gold. Wherefrom this boy brings gold?" So he (she) was doubtful because he (she) was thinking, "My son is mad, sometimes crazy." So he (she) would go, "Is it real gold? Just see." Then. "Yes, it is real gold." "Hm, how He got it?" You see. [break] ...many yogis, they make such gold for meeting their expenditures. Yes. Still in India they know how to make gold from copper. Yes. The process is they will drink mercury at night, and in the morning they will urine on the copper coins. And then, after some hours, the copper coins taken and put into the fire, it becomes gold. And it is scientific that some molecules of mercury, if mixed with copper, it is gold. Gold is combination of mercury and copper. But the people cannot mix it. They have tried. That is called alchemist. They tried to mix it. Because they do not know the process, as soon as mercury is put into fire, it immediately goes out. You melt copper, and in hot copper, if you put mercury, it will not melt together. Immediately it will throw away. So some of the yogis, they know. They digest copper, er, mercury, and it comes in the form, urine. And then the copper is put there. There is an interaction, and then put into fire. It becomes gold. Gargamuni: So we should start manufacturing. *Prabhupāda: You first of all eat mercury then. (laughter) You'll be finished. [break] ...no scarcity. Why should we go to imitate the rascals? We have got enough gold. Kṛṣṇa is supplying gold whenever we require. [break] ...artha*-prayojanam. Whatever you need, Kṛṣṇa will supply, if you actually remain dependent on Kṛṣṇa. There are so many literatures of different groups, but who is selling so much? Forty thousand, fifty thousand daily? Unless Kṛṣṇa is helping us. In the history no religion book have sold thirty thousand, forty thousand daily. There is no history. So why don't you see this wonderful thing? All the money that I have brought from USA, India, it is all book fund. Nobody has given. George has given. That is not in cash. And he gave that two lakhs. That was spent for Kṛṣṇa Book. So wherefrom the cash is coming? Gargamuni: Sales of books. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Because we have got substantial sale of books, we are free to get money. And it is unbelievable that religious books are sold thirty thousand, forty thousand, fifty thousand daily. There is no history. Gargamuni: So that is a miracle. Prabhupāda: Is it not miracle? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Some of those devotees like Tripurari, a hundred big Bhāgavatams. It's not a popular book. *Prabhupāda: It is not popular actually. For the common man it is dry subject. And I have heard that after reading one book, somebody comes to purchase. "What is this, Bhāgavata?" "We have got six." "All right, give me six volumes." He is not a devotee. Why he purchases all the six volumes of Bhāgavatam? In London our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is was sold in two months, thirty thousand copies. That is the report. Thirty thousand copies. Yadubara: Even though they don't understand the subject matter, they purchase. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. [break] Bon Mahārāja has written part of Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. And he published it before my coming to foreign countries. Gargamuni: Yes. He has not sold any. Prabhupāda: No, he has sold some, but still lying in the store. He published only one thousand copies. Our *Nectar of Devotion*, the translation of the same book, is selling like hotcakes. Yes. In the university, Temple University, they have made a textbook. And everywhere they like it, *Nectar of Devotion*. I think... What is our edition at the present moment? Fourth or Fifth edition. And we don't publish less than ten thousand copies. So we have to depend on Kṛṣṇa sincerely. Serve Him, everything, what is required, that will come, some way or other. That is miracle. Why should we try to cheat others, that "I can manufacture gold"? This rascal, if he can manufacture gold, then why he is doing himself business? That is simply jugglery. Even the magicians, they can do. They create so much money. But he is a poor man. Why he remains poor? And everyone thinks of us, that we have got unlimited wealth. You know that? Gargamuni: Yes. In Māyāpura, when I bring over the karatālas, they are very heavy, two hundred sets of karatālas. So the boatmen say, "Sona, sona." They are thinking it is gold, the karatālas. Prabhupāda: Everyone... Even government... In the parliament the question was raised, "Wherefrom they get money fabulously?" These men, in our country, they may be fools. In your country also, Los Angeles, I mean, neighboring storekeepers, they are wonderful, that "These people do not work and they have got so many cars and live so nicely?" (laughing) They inquire that "How do we get all these things?" They actually see that they are not ordinary working. They have no working or bank balance or business. Still, they have got so many cars and they eat nicely and they maintain such a nice house. And six, seven house they have purchasing. The realtors, they also know in America that we are very rich men. As soon as there is some property, they offer, because they know that we are very rich men. Because we have purchased some properties, so all the realtors, they have taken it for granted that we have got immense money. Here also, the members are thinking like that, that "Swamiji has got immense money." Mahāṁsa: Yes. And he will send when we want. Prabhupāda: He will pay. You can tell them that "Not a single farthing here. He can spend elsewhere. If you don't pay for the temple, then we shall go on like this. But as he has promised one lakh of rupees, that he will pay. That's all." Others, you have to collect here. That one lakh is promised. That will be paid. Mahāṁsa: Otherwise we can go on like this. This is very nice. So many people are coming... Prabhupāda: That's all right. In Bombay also, we can go without Deity or... Things are going on. There is no hindrance. Our members are coming. They are becoming members. You see? There is no difficulty. [break] You know the parliamentary question? Gargamuni: Yes. Prabhupāda: Parliament questioned that "These Americans, they are supposed to be..." What is that? "CIA. CIA." Is there any information to the government? "Besides that, they have got fabulous money. They are spending. Wherefrom they get the money? And if they are CIA, then what steps the government is going to step, take against them?" So the reply was three. First reply was "The government has no information that they are CIA people. Therefore the third question doesn't require to be answered, what steps? And so far their fabulous money, it is understood they collect by selling their literature and public contribution." Yes. Home member replied like this. Mahāṁsa: This was in the papers also? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. [break] Mirzapur, near Allahabad? Gargamuni: Yes, in UP. Prabhupāda: Oh, when I was businessman. Gargamuni: Some man has invited us there for kīrtana program. He wants to donate some building there. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. We get a nice place, on the Ganges side. If he donates, it will be very sanitary (salutary?) place. Gargamuni: He wants to invite us in October. Prabhupāda: Mirzapur is rich people. They have got carpet industry. Mirzapur carpet is very famous. They manufacture and sell big, nice carpets. Just like Persian carpets. So similarly, Mirzapur carpet. Besides that, they have got many other businesses. So it is on the Ganges side and the healthy quarter also. [break] ...still, he is the biggest practitioner in Allahabad. He has offered his house. In old days he constructed it for four lakhs. Gargamuni: Allahabad is an important place? *Prabhupāda: Oh yes, Allahabad, very important. The UP high*-court is there. Therefore all enlightened... University is there. All educated men of UP are in Allahabad. This Jawaharlal Nehru, Motilal Nehru, they were Allahabad men. Sarte(?) Bahadur Satru(?), big, big, well-known men, they are all... Pandita Madana Mohana Mahalabdha. All big, big politicians, they were Allahabad men. [break] ...times to print the books here. No action was taken. In the last five years, everyone tried and there was no result. Otherwise we can print all the books here. Gargamuni: No, but the quality is better. Prabhupāda: Quality is better, but it will be cheaper. It doesn't matter. But to get books there, it takes so much time and the book department is not being managed nicely. But if we print here, the all problems will be solved. Here that gentleman, he has got press. Why not let him print? Yes. Why don't you call him immediately? If he can print. We can reprint all the books here. Mahāṁsa: But the quality will not be half as good. Gargamuni: There is now a paper shortage in India, very acute. Prabhupāda: Well, we can get paper from foreign countries. That will be not difficult. Mahāṁsa: Oh. If we can get paper from foreign countries, then the printing results can be very good, because the printing is not bad. It's the paper which is very bad. Tejiyas: Still, at the same, time everybody buys Gita Press books, even though the quality is bad. *Prabhupāda: The quality is third*-class. Tejiyas: Everyone is buying all over India Gita Press. Prabhupāda: Because the supply is cheap. Gargamuni: Well, it's in Hindi also. We have to print in Hindi. Prabhupāda: Well, first of all supply the English then, we... [break] ...tried to sell her place for fifty lakhs of rupees. She thinks that I am so rich man. Mahāṁsa: Which press? Devotee: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan? *Prabhupāda: Associated Press, something like that. Bombay's first*-class press. [break] ...They are not coming to us. *Satsvarūpa: [break] ...but they would rather be non*-devotees than work all day. They can say they are free. Prabhupāda: Yes. I offered that, that "What is this two thousand, 2,500 per month? Oh we can earn at any moment two thousand. So you become devotee; *I excuse you of rent." They are not agreeing. [break] ...like an ass simply for sense gratification. Therefore it is warned in the Bhāgavatam, nāyaṁ deho deha*-bhājāṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhati [SB 5.5.1]. [break] ...to respect the Vaiṣṇava, to water tulasī, and this aśvattha tree. These are bhakti items. Nitāi: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: Everything is perverted reflection. Janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "Everything is born from the Absolute Truth." So unless there is something in the Absolute Truth, how it can be reflected here? Everything is there. Dr. Patel: Almost everything. All His śaktis excepting Him. Prabhupāda: Athāto brahma jijñāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Girirāja: "They began to say that 'The chief gopī, Rādhārāṇī, who was taken alone by Kṛṣṇa must be very proud of Her position, thinking Herself the greatest of the gopīs. Yet how could Kṛṣṇa take Her alone, leaving all of us aside?' " *Prabhupāda: [break] ...by Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rādhe jaya jaya mādhava*-dayite. Dr. Patel: Rādhe jaya jaya mādhava... *Prabhupāda: Mādhava*-dayite, gokula... Eh? Girirāja: Taruṇī. *Prabhupāda: Gokula*-taruṇī maṇḍala-mahite. Rādhe jaya jaya mādhava-dayite, gokula-taruṇī, all the maṇḍala-mahite. She is the most beautiful amongst all the young girls in Gokula. Rādhe jaya jaya mādhava... Rūpa Gosvāmī's praying, Dr. Patel: Even though They are one in... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktiḥ. Dr. Patel: Hlādinī... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. So Rādhārāṇī is the hlādinī-śakti. So when the Parabrahman wants to enjoy, He does not enjoy in this, the material energy. He expands His own pleasure potency. That is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa tattva. Tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptam caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭum adhunā. "They have again become united in the form of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu." Rādhā kṛṣṇa nāhe anya. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā kṛṣṇa nāhe anya. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād ekātmānāv api deha... [Cc. Ādi 1.5]. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...in every respect. We imitate, "I am the lord of everything." That is also imitation. Dr. Patel: Yes, that is also imitation. We are imitating gopīs, not Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Ah, his representative, will put on him. [break] Prabhupāda: Girirāja, who is the Girirāja? Girirāja: Govardhana. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: You are also Govardhana, enlarger of the cows. *Prabhupāda: Govardhana*-pādapa-tale. This is the... This is the bhajana of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Kutaḥ: "Where You are?" Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava will never say that "We have seen." Kutaḥ: "Where You are?" Dr. Patel: They were searching, search of Rādhā. *Prabhupāda: Search of Rādhā. That is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava, vipralambha, in separation, feeling "Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa?" Govinda*-viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. Dr. Patel: "The whole world is śūnya in absence of..." *Prabhupāda: This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. Govinda*-vira... Dr. Patel: That is the point Śukadeva comes. Prabhupāda: No, Śukadeva later on came. Dr. Patel: Yes, after that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So we should be always engaged in Kṛṣṇa*-kathā. Oh, danger is always there. This is a place... Dr. Patel: You must act like Parīkṣit. Prabhupāda: You don't care for danger. You go on chanting. That's all. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58]. This is a place where padaṁ padaṁ vipadām: every step there is danger. How much dangerous position you'll save? Better go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...and some European, one European was coming. So as soon as we face to face, so I had to get down. They forced me. Dr. Patel: You know that way they behaved with Gandhiji in South Africa. Prabhupāda: Beaten him like anything. He would have died. [break] Fisher's, Fisherman's island. "I shall again turn them into fisherman's island." Dr. Patel: British people is the fisherman's island. Prabhupāda: Germany is the bitterest enemy of Britain. Dr. Patel: Stalin. Prabhupāda: No, Germany, whole Germany. They do not like to speak in English also. Yes, I have seen it. Even they know English, they'll not speak. In the bank they could speak a little, little English, but they avoid. Then I took... What is that boy that first went to...? Bhāgavata: Śivānanda. Prabhupāda: Śivānanda. Then I... Śivānanda talked in German. [break] ...two wars is due to Germany's hatred to Britain. That's all. There was always competition in colonization between France, Holland... Dr. Patel: German. All of them. Prabhupāda: No, not Germany. Not Germany. Germany never tried for colonization. Dr. Patel: Belgium, such a small thing, they have half of the Central Africa like a pyramid standing on its tip. [break] Prabhupāda: Britishers were maintaining the British Empire at the cost of India. Soldiers, money... Dr. Patel: Indian Army was Indian Civil totally. Even today it is so. Indian Army fought... [break] Prabhupāda: Pathans, Sikhs, they fought so nicely. Dr. Patel: This Mount Hazenot(?) battle, which I read very... Prabhupāda: [break] (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: "Śukadeva Gosvāmī has used the word śraddhānvita for one who is trained in the spiritual life. Śraddhā, or faith, is the beginning. One who has developed his faith in Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme spirit soul, can both describe and hear." [break] Prabhupāda: Why? Devotee: They're in the hospital. Bhāgavata: Caranaravinda was the hospital. *Prabhupāda: So who is take care, him? [break] ...authorities. Anu. Anu means follow. Anuśṛṇuyat. Śṛṇu means "hear." Krīditaṁ ca idaṁ ca vikrīdita vraja*-vadhūbhiḥ, viṣṇoḥ anuśṛṇuyāt. Don't directly read. Don't directly. Anuśṛṇuyāt: "Hear from the authoritative person." Girirāja: "One must hear from disciplic succession. Anu means following, and anu means always. So one must always follow the disciplic succession and not hear from any stray professional reciters." [break] Prabhupāda: There is on rāga stage. One must have passed the sādhana stage, neophyte stage, and, means, regulative principles. Girirāja: "Those who are simply attracted to temple worship but do not know the philosophy of bhakti are in the neophyte stage." [break] Prabhupāda: ...still India's spiritual culture, that people were not trained up in the bhakti science; *simply they go to the temple, "dung, dung, dung." (makes sound of bell*-ringing) That's all. That has finished. Dr. Patel: Bhakti is practiced more in south. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: In the south there is... Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. Everywhere. They do not know. In the temple there is no discussion scientifically about Kṛṣṇa or anything. You see? (Hindi) Dr. Patel: They become lusty. *Bhāgavata: Bhāgavata*-saptāhas. Bhāgavata-saptāhas. *Prabhupāda: Ah, bhāgavata*-saptāha. It is all nonsense. Simply they are hearing from the material platform some karma-kāṇḍīya vicāra, that "If you hear..." Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa Śaṅkara Śāstri is speaking very... Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa Śaṅkara Śāstri from Nariya(?) (indistinct) place. Prabhupāda: He's a learned scholar, I know. Dr. Patel: He had also returned (indistinct) In Nariya(?) he's supposed to be the best scholar in Sanskrit, not only a big bhakta also a Vaiṣṇava. [break] Prabhupāda: ...there is no saptāha. [break] Girirāja: "...is so potent that the more one advances in this line, the more he loses his attraction for material life." Dr. Patel: People used to prostrate themselves. Prabhupāda: All right. That is artificial. Dr. Patel: I have read somewhere. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: That is not the way. Dr. Patel: Have you read it? I have read it. Prabhupāda: Even I do not... No. These are all nonsense. Girirāja: "One who is actually deriving..." [break] *Prabhupāda: That is the disease, material disease, to become lusty. So if one actually hears from the authority rāsa*-līlā, then he is no more lusty. That is the test. That is the test. Dr. Patel: He becomes (indistinct) This kāma is always first everywhere. (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Kāma is the basic principle of material life. That is explained in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etad: "Both men and women, they are attracted in this material world for this sex life." Mithunī-bhāvam etad. Tayor mithaḥ. They are... Now, just see in this beach. They are coming all dressed, and the man is attracting woman; woman is attracting man. This is business, going on here. Dr. Patel: You are really... Oscar Wilde has written once... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the fact. We can see it. We can see it. That's all. Everywhere the same business. In the Western world they are becoming more and more naked. You see? Mini, miniskirt. Dr. Patel: What they call it? Bhāgavata: Streaking. Dr. Patel: No, no, no. What is that called, costume? Prabhupāda: Topless. Topless. Dr. Patel: Topless and bottomless. *Prabhupāda: These things are going on. That means they are attracted. Attracted. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithunī*-bhāvam etad. They'll dress. Woman will dress very nicely so that she can attract man, and man will also do something which will, he'll attract woman. Mithunī-bhāvam tayor mitha... In this way, when they are united-hṛdāya-granthim āhuḥ, a very strong knot: "Oh, you are mine. I am yours." (laughter) "You are mine. I am yours." In this way they pull on this material life. And then, gradually, "Now we must have good apartment to live and enjoy sex life." Puṁsāṁ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etad tayor mithaḥ hṛdāya-granthim āhuḥ, tathā gṛha. "Now have skyscraper building." Kṣetra: "Land. We must produce food grains." Tathā gṛha-kṣetra-suta: "We must have children." Dr. Patel: No, but according to the Taittiriya Upaniṣad... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... This is the material life. Dr. Patel: That's right. You are right. *Prabhupāda: This is material... Tathā gṛha*-kṣetra-sutāpta. Apta: friends. I must show: "Just see how I have got big house, nice wife, good bank balance. Come and see. And just glorify me, 'Oh, you are very successful. Although you are going to be dog next life.' " This is going on. Atho gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vitta janasya moho 'yam. This is illusion. This is illusion. Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti: [SB 5.5.8] "Now I am such and such big man, minister." That's all. And he's... The minister is going to be dog next life. You see? That he does not know. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmā... [Bg. 3.27]. Dr. Patel: I don't think they should be dog, become dog. They should become hogs. *Prabhupāda: Yes, dog or hog, but the same. There is no much difference. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ [SB 2.3.19]. These animals have been especially mentioned. Śva means dog, and viḍ-varāha means hog. Śva viḍ-varā... *Dr. Patel: Viḍ*-varāha: "dirty eating hog." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Vit. Vit means stool. Śva*-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra. Uṣṭra means camel, and khara means ass. So these gṛhamedhīs they have been described as the śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. Bhāgavata is very strong (laughs) in criticizing. Therefore in the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "All types of cheating religion is rejected." Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra. Kaitava means cheating. Śrīdhara Swāmī, he has... Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ: "This Bhāgavata is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ, those who are above this material existence, paramahaṁsas." Bhāgavata is not meant for ordinary men. Dr. Patel: Who can make a distinction between milk and water. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no, means he accepts only the milk, not the water. Similarly, this whole world is mixture of spirit and matter, so he rejects matter; he takes only spirit. That is paramahaṁsa. Go on. *Girirāja: "Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura points out that according to Bhagavad*-gītā, the Brahmā day and the Brahmā night are periods of solar years expanding 4,300,000 multiplied by one thousand..." [break] Prabhupāda: Four, I think. This one? Satsvarūpa: Yes, 747. Jumbo. Prabhupāda: It is 447, yes. [break] Bhāgavata: ...celebrate. Prabhupāda: The celebration is you have to fast day and night and four times offer worship to the Lord Śiva. Dr. Patel: And drink bhang also. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not recommended. But they can do... They do all now... Bhāgavata: So we should observe this festival, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Bhāgavata: Not necessary. Prabhupāda: Go on. [break] ...Tirupati. These rascals are getting money and investing for television. Indian man (2): Industry. Prabhupāda: You see? They should have given to us for distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness all..., but these rascals will not do that. Indian man (3): "In the Vedic scriptures, therefore, one is recommended to give charity to a brāhmaṇa." Prabhupāda: Because they are not brāhmaṇa. All śūdras, Communist. Dr. Patel: Janma jāyate śūdraḥ. Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially, especially that Andhra government is Communist government. Indian man (3): "And by so doing, one pleases Lord Viṣṇu and all the demigods. The pilgrims take bath, worship the Deity and give in charity. They are also recommended to fast one day." [break] Prabhupāda: ...that after attaining human form of body he is not degraded. Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Prabhupāda: It is wrong. Dr. Patel: Kathopaniṣad says that (Sanskrit). People according to their... Prabhupāda: Yes, karma. Dr. Patel: ...knowledge and according to their karma, even they become these trees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (3): "Vidyadhara himself says that even though he was a demigod, he was condemned to become a serpent. But because he was touched by the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, he immediately came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He admitted, however, that in his previous life he was actually sinful." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...observing Śiva*-rātri, Nanda Mahārāja and all the cowherds men, they increased their attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Pancadravida: "After this incident, on a very pleasant night both Kṛṣṇa and His elder brother Balarāma, who are inconceivably powerful, went into the forest of Vṛndāvana." [break] *Prabhupāda: "Dressing is artificial. It is not required. Yes. This naked body is very nice." [break] No, you don't... You cannot be naga*-bābā. That is not good. [break] If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, all these rascaldom becomes charming. When one is Kṛṣṇa conscious these things does not appeal. Pancadravida: "Kṛṣṇa's transcendental form, quali..." [break] Prabhupāda: Law is there. [break] ...speak in all language, even in the animal, birds' language. Babudaka. *Dr. Patel: Keśi*-nisūdana. *Prabhupāda: Keśi*-nisūdana. Yadubara: "Keśi rushed toward with Lord with great..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...control his mouth. Dr. Patel: This (indistinct) practically amongst all the, I mean, animals, lower and higher. There are demons who are against. Even horse, even birds, even snake. Eh? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yadubara: "As soon as Keśi reached Him..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...was not so cheap. He had to pay proper price. Dr. Patel: In Europe also they were eloping away, these girls. Prabhupāda: Europeans, they are also coming from kṣatriya family. Yadubara: "I shall also see how You..." [break] "...your internal potency You have set up the influence of māyā." That is part of the internal potency? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. What is your question? Yadubara: Well, I thought it was the external potency. Prabhupāda: For Him there is no external, internal. For Kṛṣṇa there is no external, internal. You cannot understand this. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. For me there is external, internal, but for Kṛṣṇa there is no external, internal because His energy... The external energy is also His energy, and internal is His energy. Therefore He's everything. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) For electrician there is no difference between refrigerator and heater. He knows how to adjust it. For me, this is heater; this is refrigerator. Like that. Yadubara: "You have taken your birth in the Yadu dynasty..." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...says, ātma*-māyayā. Ātma-māyayā, His own energy. So the material energy and the spiritual, both of them, are His energy. So even if He appears in a material body, it does not act as material body. It act as spiritual body. Just like same example: The expert electrician, he can turn the refrigerator into heater. Is it not? That is the way. Hare Kṛṣṇa. For Him there is nothing, no distinction, because He is absolute. Similarly, to take the side of the devotee and to kill the enemy of Kṛṣṇa, they are all the same. Brahmānanda: Inside of the devotee? Prabhupāda: Or to kill the demon, that is His mercy. Both of them. It is not that materially, as we think, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is taking side of this man and killing this man." No. Still, He is neutral, absolute. Brahmānanda: The sahajiyās, they don't know that. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Brahmānanda: Sahajiyās, they just go towards like the rasa*-līlā, and they avoid the demon killing. Prabhupāda: Who? Brahmānanda: The sahajiyās. Prabhupāda: Oh, they are rascals. Kick them out. They think everything is easy. Dr. Patel: What is sahajiyā? *Prabhupāda: Sahajiyā... Sahaj means easy. Easy*-going. They will smoke cigarette at the same time they will play rasa-līlā. This is sahajiyā. This is sahajiyā. They will do all nonsense; still, they will become God, imitation of God. Yadubara: "Nārada Muni wanted to impress upon people in general that Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. His activities such as His appearance..." [break] Prabhupāda: He played also. (Hindi) We used to say chor chor kela: "Catch up the feet." (Hindi) [break] ...and wonderful things, as they are mentioned, they were all manufactured by the demons. Dr. Patel: māyā. *Prabhupāda: No, no, these wonderful scientific advancement, they were done by the demons. So they are demons. These so*-called scientist, they re all demons. Dr. Patel: Palace of Pāṇḍavas were constructed by māyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: So they were all engineers. Prabhupāda: No, no, engineer. Engineer are also demons, but he is no longer demon. Now doctors are demon. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...land only for this beach. Dr. Patel: But you are going away. Prabhupāda: No, I am... (Dr. Patel laughs) I am here. [break] Very soon. [break] Living entities are there in the sand. How do they say there is no life in the moon? I cannot understand. What they are eating within the sand? Dr. Patel: Not that, but our definition of life is, I mean, not really complete. It is not complete. We mean... Life means anything which, I mean, which breathes, which beats. That is all humbug. Everything is life, to tell the truth. Prabhupāda: No, even distinction, life and matter, here is sand. How these animals are living within the sand? And not only that. Now it is... Because it is wet, they are living. When it is very scorchy hot, then also living. Dr. Patel: That is māyā. This is all māyā. Prabhupāda: Living entity can exist in any condition. In the sun globe there is life. Go on. Dr. Patel: Life is caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes, caitanya. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Dr. Patel: Without caitanya nothing can exist. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Patel: I think even in an atom there is caitanya. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Aṇḍāntara*-stha paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. There is. Go on. Yadubara: "I can be sure this opportunity..." [break] Prabhupāda: It is His energy, so therefore Kṛṣṇa cannot be under the influence of material energy. [break] Just like, what is called, shade and light. They are the same thing, but shade means the other side of light, absence of light. But light can be there at any time. It is not that because it is shade, there cannot be any light. And this light of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is eradicating the darkness of the shady material world. [break] ...taking so much care of the body. Why? Because there is consciousness. Therefore consciousness is important thing, not this body. [break] ...that "Kaṁsa, this rascal, is sending me to Kṛṣṇa. I'll be able to see Him." That's all. His business was to see Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: He was a diplomat. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...between demons and gods. So god abides by the order of the Supreme Lord; the demons do not. That's all. They do indirectly, by force. Just like the demon has to die. Dr. Patel: Both were the sons of Kaśyapa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Kaśyapa, gods and demons. By their behavior one sect became demons, no? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Vyāvahāreṇa jāyante. Canakya Paṇḍita has said na kaścid kasyacid mitro na kaścid kasyacid ripuḥ, vyāvahāreṇa jāyante: "Who is friend and who is enemy, it can be understood by the behavior." Vyāvahāreṇa jāyante mitrāṇi ripavas tathā. Dr. Patel: By their... When there is coming action, then you find out who is friend and who is enemy. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] This is very nice hell. Dr. Patel: Now all that society, any decent(?) society. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dr. Patel: That Mr. Nair... Prabhupāda: Mr. Nair also, in Calcutta, many times. [break] Dr. Patel: Irish or English? Prabhupāda: No, Irish. He established the Home Rule, Home Rule Party, in India. Dr. Patel: And he fell off from Gandhi's movement. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Go on. [break] ...rāga of love. When one goes to see his beloved and thinks so many things, "I'll do this, I'll do this, I'll do this," that is pūrva*-rāga. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...gopīs as krūra, not Akrūra. Dr. Patel: Yes, because he was taking away Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma from there. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya*-kṛttamaḥ. Kṛṣṇa recognizes immediately who preaches the gospel of Bhagavad-gītā. Yes. Dr. Patel: Shall we go back? [break] Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) [break] ...uncle, His father's cousin. Dr. Patel: Uddhava was His cousin. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...kabe śuddha ha'be mana, kabe hāma herabo, śrī vṛndāvana. Dr. Patel: This is Bengali, Bengali. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: "When my mind will be purified after leaving the..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...Vaiṣṇava kavi has sung, Dr. Patel: United Nations were created... *Prabhupāda: No, no, not only United Nation, united in everything, "universal brotherhood," whatever you call*-here is the example. *Dr. Patel: So*-called United Nations were created not for unity. *Prabhupāda: No, no, either so*-called United Nation or so-called nation. Here is also there is nation. What do they know about nation? Everyone, he is interested with his own pocket. That's all. "What money is coming in my pocket." That's all. Where is the nationality? If there was nationality, why such havoc could have happened? Now the strike is going on. There is no feeling of nationality because they are not thinking of the nation; they are thinking of their own pocket, that's all. Where is the nationality? They are simply bogus slogans. Actual unity, nationality, universality, is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is a fact. Let them see. Men, women also. There are women also. We do not hate anyone. Come on. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dr. Patel: This M.N. Raya, you know, who advocated that humanism, for which he was banished by the Communist fellows because the root of M.N. Raya was in Hinduism, no? After all? It is very difficult for us to think about so*-called Communism. But religion itself is Communistic. Prabhupāda: No, no. We, we don't think in terms of Hinduism. We don't think. Dr. Patel: No. But we have been actually brought up religiously as communists, religious communists. Prabhupāda: Spiritual communists. Religious, religious upon strict sense of religion. Religion means spiritualism. Dr. Patel: Yes, spiritual communism. *Prabhupāda: Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. Other things are cheating. If they have no sense of God, they do not know what is God, how to abide by the orders of God, that is not religion. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ-projjhita kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "All cheating types of religion system is rejected, kicked out from this Bhāgavata." They're all cheating. "I am God. You are God. I am everything. You are..." This is not religion. It is all humbug religion. Go on. [break] ...has written about Kṛṣṇa by Vyāsadeva, and people say, "There was no Kṛṣṇa. It is all fictitious." Vyāsadeva had to take so much trouble for some fictitious. Just see their intelligence. Even no common sense. Why Śukadeva Gosvāmī will take interest? Why Vyāsadeva will write such book? Therefore they do not recognize that Bhāgavata is written by Vyāsadeva. But how they can deny? Bhagavad-gītā, that is also written by Vyāsadeva. *Yaśomatīnandana: So*-called scholars like Rādhākrishnan says, "It is, Vyāsadeva, is some imaginary character." Dr. Patel: Why they say even Vyāsadeva is imaginary? Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: They say, some of them, there was not one Vyāsadeva, but multiple Vyāsas and all sorts of things. Prabhupāda: So which Vyāsa you accept? There may be multiple but which Vyāsa? That means if someone... I do not know if there were multiple Vyāsadeva. Dr. Patel: Vyāsa is the surname. *Prabhupāda: No, Vyāsa, Vyāsadeva... The guru is called Vyāsa. That is one... But the original Vyāsa is one. Just like we. We worship the birthday of guru as Vyāsa*-pūjā day because guru is representative of Vyāsa. [break] ...eating, if this tāmbūla is offered and sandal pulp, it becomes a garland. It becomes very comfortable. Yes. Yadubara: "When Akrūra finished eating..." [break] Prabhupāda: The guest may be comfortable. Sukham āsīnam. He is seated very nicely, comfortably, then talk. This is the system. Receiving guests and talking. [break] "Beware of dog. Beware of dog. I am living with dog. Don't come here." He poses that "I am friend of... Dog is my best friend, so don't come here." Yes. His overfaithfulness has obliged him to take the body of a dog. Yadubara: "The Vedic system of receiving a guest was completely observed by Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself to teach all others how..." [break] Prabhupāda: Even if you receive at home your enemy, you shall treat him in such a way that he is not afraid. Akuto 'bhayam. That "I have come to the house of enemy and he can do me harm at any time," no. He should be received in such a way that he will be completely free from these thoughts, that "I am his enemy." Dr. Patel: These Arabs were well known about receiving these guests like that, but they have learned from India. Prabhupāda: Yes, they were all Indians. All this land... Now just like they have become Pakistan. They were Indians, Hindu. Because we degraded in our culture, the divisions, the so many divisions... Otherwise whole world are under Vedic culture. As soon as the brāhmaṇas and the..., or kṣatriyas, they degenerated, the whole society disrupted. Dr. Patel: Now the brāhmaṇa is trying to regenerate. *Prabhupāda: Now he is above brāhmaṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma*-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He is brahma-bhūtaḥ, not brāhmaṇa. Dr. Patel: You know, when, during Christmas, they bring the turkey, they fatten it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: These Christians, during the Christmas, they buy a turkey one month before... Prabhupāda: But that is not the injunction of Christ. They have made it. Dr. Patel: No, no. That cannot be injunction of a saint like that. Prabhupāda: No. He says, "Thou shall not kill," general order. *Dr. Patel: Christ was a great bhāgavata*-bhakta. Prabhupāda: Hm? Dr. Patel: He was a bhakta. Prabhupāda: Yes. I said in many lectures that Christianism means Vaiṣṇavism. Where is the Christian? Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavism. Totally Vaiṣṇavism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Dr. Patel: Christianity it is really Vaiṣṇavism, but they, unfortunately... The church... Prabhupāda: Mohamedanism... Mohammedanism... Dr. Patel: The church has spoiled it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Patel: Church has defaced it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Dr. Patel: It is the church, Christian church, which has defaced Christism. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everywhere the followers make the whole thing bungled. Hm. Go on. [break] Dr. Patel: [break] No, he saw them there. Prabhupāda: No, he never went. Not that. Never went because all of them were thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Therefore He never went. Dr. Patel: But they met again in... Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya na padam ekaṁ gacchati. Kṛṣṇa... Physically it was seen that Kṛṣṇa left, but Kṛṣṇa remained within their mind. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] No, Kṛṣṇa came also. Śrīdhara: "We gopīs of Vṛndāvana having left our homes, friends, and relatives have become Kṛṣṇa's maidservants but He is..." (end) Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 2, 1974, Bombay Prabhupāda: ...arrange meetings in the school, colleges, societies, big, big halls. Because they may not come. They are not attracted to the temple meetings. They think, "This temple is temple, some priestly class." They want philosophy, logic, science. So they have to be convinced. Not sentiments. So those who are advanced, they are not in favor of religious sentiments, because they have got experience, "Now, some sentiments..." But they do not understand what is this sentiment. Therefore they have to be understood through logic, philosophy, science. [break] Girirāja: ...meeting a week from Saturday. Prabhupāda: Oh, where? Girirāja: Well, it's on Marine Drive. Somebody just became a life member, but he is inviting six hundred guests on the terrace of the building. *Prabhupāda: Very good. This kind of meeting should be arranged. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] It is also our business, to kill all undesirable men so*-called swamis, yogis, avatāras. What is that? Kṛṣṇa... Girirāja: (reading) "Kṛṣṇa, who advented Himself just to kill all undesirable elements in the world..." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, this movement is advented to kill all the so*-called yogis, swamis, avatāras, rascals, philosophers, commentators. We have to kill. Kill means... Where is your tilaka? You did not have tilaka in the morning? Devotee: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Ah. So this is our one of the items, to vanquish all these rascals, so*-called swamis. They say that "Why you criticize others also?" Because we have to vanquish them. Now these people cannot rise. When there is sunrise, there is no use of these glowworms. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Therefore they must be finished, all over the world. So-called religionists, so-called philosophers, so-called avatāras, swamis, yogis-finished. Our program should be like that. [break] ...all these rascals, anymore to flourish. That is one of our program. (Hindi) [break] Girirāja: Garuḍa put some nectar on the tree to preserve it. Prabhupāda: Yes, nectar, ambrosia. Amṛta, amṛta. Girirāja: Is it spiritual? Prabhupāda: Yes. Amṛta means spiritual. [break] But this grief is for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is spiritual. Dr. Patel: The gopīs became in grief when Kṛṣṇa went away. Prabhupāda: Center is Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Patel: I want to read this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five times in one year. *Prabhupāda: Oh yes. You read it. You will be benefitted. Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam. Amalam: There is no black spot. Amalaṁ purāṇam. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priya... Dr. Patel: I have read all the modern literatures... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ. Even there is some broken language, abaddhavat api. Abaddha, not systematized. Because there is explanation, nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni, therefore śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ. Sadhu, they do not take care of this. They see what is the bhava there. Budhā bhāva*-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. Dr. Patel: Something they'll say, "Why do you want to go after Sanskrit? That will be all right if you are merged with God." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real thing. God is not concerned with any language. Girirāja: "Out of fear they could only cry in agony and stand erect on the banks." Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is their... That is right. Girirāja: "...unable to help their beloved Kṛṣṇa. While this scene was taking place on the bank of the Yamunā, there were ill omens manifest. The earth trembled, meteors fell from the sky, and the bodies of men shivered." [break] Prabhupāda: If a boy has got alone, without his elder brother, you see, there is anxiety also. Dr. Patel: Even though they have realized the extraordinary quality of the sun, but they have not been able to think that he is God incarnate. *Prabhupāda: This means these things, these sentiments-anxiety, grief, anger, all these things*-they are constant companion with the living entity. You cannot give it up. But when they are used for Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection. That is upādhi-śūnya, without any designation. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, we are only neophytes. How we can know if our anxiety is still material when we feel anxiety in devotional service? Prabhupāda: No, no. If you feel anxiety for Kṛṣṇa, then it is not material. That anxiety is not... That is love. That is pure love, that... Why you become anxious for our children? Because there is love. So whole scheme is that you have to transfer your attachment to Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: All bhakti should be directed to the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Mayy āsakta*-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan. This is called bhakti-yoga. Mayy āsakta. The aśakti, the attachment, is for so many things. Now we have to concentrate it on Kṛṣṇa. This is bhakti-yoga. Mayy āsakta manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Simply by this concentration of an attraction to Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated. This is the process. Dr. Patel: First you must perfect your thinking of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When you think of Kṛṣṇa, you are on the transcendental position. You are not in the material world. Māṁ ca vyabhicāriṇi bhakti*-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān samatītya etān. He is immediately transcendental to all the qualities of material world. *Dr. Patel: Then he becomes brahma*-bhūta [SB 4.30.20]. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if continuously... That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If you continuously remain yourself, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, smārtavyaḥ satato viṣṇu vismārtavyo na jatucit. This is the process: You have to think of Kṛṣṇa always. The yogis and others, they artificially, for a certain time, fifteen minutes, twenty minutes or half an hour, they think of Kṛṣṇa by meditation, and they engage again in the material activities. But here... Dr. Patel: The yogis have got difficulty... [break] Prabhupāda: ...helpful to bhakti. Dr. Patel: That is why they are... I am getting sidetracked. *Prabhupāda: They think that these are the processes, mechanical process. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakti is not mechanical. It is spontaneous. When you spontaneously think of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfection. [break] Abhyabhicāriṇi. [break] Apratihatā. Yena ātmā prasīdati. [break] ...anxiety for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is transcendental. Dr. Patel: All mana buddhi should be concentrated to the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa. [break]. *Prabhupāda: ...Madana*-mohan, nobody can be saved from the hands of Madana. Madana-mohana we have to see. Dr. Patel: That day we talked about these things... [break] Prabhupāda: ...perfection. They think of Kṛṣṇa that "He is our child. Now He is going to be vanquished." Dr. Patel: Because it was very late to come back from... [break] Prabhupāda: Same sentiment, but in relation with Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: These sentiments are not absent in American society these days. That is why these boys are neglected by the parents. [break] Prabhupāda: ...philosophers, Vedāntists. They were small children, woman, village persons and animals. But they were so much, I mean to say, full with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the perfection. [break] They're so fortunate. [break] Anxiety is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa, nothing else but Kṛṣṇa: "How Kṛṣṇa was smiling with us, how He was playing." That is natural. If you have got love for anyone. Dr. Patel: "What will happen to us when He is not there?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Patel: To think, it surrounds... *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...everything is there, but centered around Kṛṣṇa. [break] Govinda viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitāṁ jagat sarvam. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. Śūnyāyitāṁ jagat*-sarvaṁ govinda viraheṇa me: "By Govinda's separation, whole world is void." You see? These are exhibited in the person of the... Dr. Patel: That... [break] Prabhupāda: "...Kṛṣṇa is gone, I shall die." This is govinda viraheṇa me. "Oh, what is the use of living if Kṛṣṇa is gone?" Dr. Patel: He was just a boy of five, six, seven years. [break] Girirāja: ...about a hundred hoods, how could Kṛṣṇa manage all of those hoods? Prabhupāda: Oh, then you do not understand Kṛṣṇa. You are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa from your point of view. Kaliya may have unlimited number of hoods; still, Kṛṣṇa can expand Himself. That is Kṛṣṇa. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa from your standpoint of view. Girirāja: So He did it, He expanded Himself. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Bhāgavata: But did the residents of Vṛndāvana see the many expansions or did they only see one Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: They may see one. That is not very difficult to understand. Just like Arjuna saw the virāṭa*-rupa of Kṛṣṇa, and others saw Kṛṣṇa as chariot driver. Those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, their seeing of Kṛṣṇa and ordinary man's seeing of Kṛṣṇa, there is much difference. They think that "What is this? A boy, a village boy, they are worshiping." One so-called sādhu in Haridvar he has remarked like that, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami is worshiping a rural boy." Indian Man: That was in the Times. Bhāgavata: A rural God. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) Girirāja: Another thing we were discussing yesterday is that in Goloka there are no demons. Prabhupāda: No. There cannot be any demons. Then how it is Vaikuṇṭha? Vaikuṇṭha means without any anxiety. So the situation of anxiety is created by the demons. Therefore, when Kṛṣṇa wants to fight, He has to come down here because there is no question of fighting. There is no chance of fighting. Everyone is devotee. A devotee will never agree. But they will agree Kṛṣṇa's fight, but here, in this field. Girirāja: But the sentiment of anxiety or fear for Kṛṣṇa, is that sentiment in Goloka? Prabhupāda: No. There is no such thing. That is separation. Just like gopīs, they are full of anxiety: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has gone to the pasturing ground." Their anxiety is there. Just like Rukmiṇī, she was thinking, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa may not give me up. He is talking in this way." She fainted. So anxiety is there. So the anxiety is that one may not be separated from Kṛṣṇa. That is the anxiety. And actually there is no separation, but the feeling of separation out of ecstatic love. Just like one who has got love for the other person, beloved, he always thinks like that, "My beloved may not be separated from me." This is ecstasy of love. Just like a miser man who has got much wealth, he always thinks, "My money may not be lost. My money may not be lost." Out of his too much attachment for the money, he thinks like that. Is it not? "How shall I protect this money? How shall I protect this?" To earn money is also troublesome. To keep money also troublesome. And when it is lost, that is also troublesome. This is the position. But there is no such thing, loss, but the anxiety is there. We shall return from here? [break] ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. So both the sādhu and the duṣkṛtina, by Kṛṣṇa's two activities, act differently to the devotees and to the demons. They realize. That is their achievement. By punishment, this Kāliya realized, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." And devotees, by out of love, they realize. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is Absolute. In either process He is realized. Mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ. If one is sincere, then they gradually make progress. Yes. [break] ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Girirāja: "O Lord, You have descended especially for the purpose of annihilating all kinds of disturbing elements within the world, and because You are the Absolute Truth, there is no difference between Your mercy and punishment." [break] Prabhupāda: ...surgical operation is there, the knife is being used on the body, that means he is getting relief. It is not punishment. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] Girirāja: Is that benefit coming in all suffering or only when it is given by Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is suffering given by Kṛṣṇa... Therefore a devotee does not take seriously suffering. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susumīkṣamāṇaḥ [SB 10.14.8]. A devotee thinks, "It is the favor of Kṛṣṇa that he has put me into suffering." They never see suffering as suffering. It is favor of Kṛṣṇa. That is devotee's vision. [break] It is exactly like a son who knows his father well. If the father slaps, the son never protests. He knows that "It is good for me." Similarly, a devotee is never disturbed when there is suffering given by Kṛṣṇa. [break] Girirāja: A karmī is suffering just the laws of... Prabhupāda: The karmī is different. The karmī is suffering. He is suffering just like criminal is suffering. A criminal is given slap by the police. That slap, and the father is giving slap, that slap is different. Although it looks the same thing, but there is great difference. Satsvarūpa: So there is no benefit to suffering unless it is connected with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. When Kṛṣṇa... Therefore we shall fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa. As Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, mārobi rākhobi yo icchā tohārā: "Now I surrender. Now if you want to maintain me, that is all right, and if You want to kill me, that is also all right." This is surrender. It is not business, "If You maintain me, then I surrender. If You kill me, then I do not." It is not like that. Mārobi rākhobi yo icchā tanhārā. "As You like. If You want to maintain, that is also good; if You want to kill, that is also good." This is devotee's view. Satsvarūpa: Someone might say, "But if one is surrendered why should Kṛṣṇa give him trouble?" *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is because he is always free. Why do you make Kṛṣṇa dependent on your so*-called goodwill, that "Kṛṣṇa must give me always pleasure"? This is sense gratification. This is sense gratification that you approach Kṛṣṇa for your comfort, sense gratification. That is not bhakti. That is sense gratification. Prahlāda Mahārāja was given suffering by his father so harshly, but he never said, "Oh, I am devotee and Kṛṣṇa giving me so much trouble? Oh! Give it up." He never said that. Neither he asked Kṛṣṇa to come and save him. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. The Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas, they were always with Kṛṣṇa and they were suffering. They never asked Kṛṣṇa that "You are the Supreme, and why we are suffering?" Never said. Never said. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Girirāja: "Because You are the Absolute Truth, there is no difference between Your mercy and punishment." *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is to be understood. If we understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Absolute Truth, then this is understanding, that either suffering or enjoying, it is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. There must be some purpose. When Kṛṣṇa puts me into suffering, there must be some purpose. So we should welcome because it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Tat te 'nukampāṁ susumīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātmā*-kṛtaṁ vipākam [SB 10.14.8]. (Hindi) [break] "...misdeeds. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He is reforming me, slightly suffering. I would have suffered very greatly on account of my past deeds, but He is kindly accommodating me by giving little suffering. That's all." [break] ...by the wife of Kāliya. Girirāja: [break] "...that this creature, appearing in the body of a serpent, must have been overburdened with all kinds of sins. Otherwise how could he have the body of a serpent? Your dancing on his hoods reduces all the sinful results of actions caused by his having this body of a serpent." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...to becomes angry by Kṛṣṇa is auspicious, auspicious. It is a very nice verse. "It is very auspicious that you have become angry upon him. He is getting salvation." [break] ...the punishment of Kṛṣṇa, one has to execute many pious activities in his past life, just to get the punishment of Kṛṣṇa. And what to speak of love of Kṛṣṇa, how much pious activities one has to do. If for being punished by Kṛṣṇa, one has to undergo lots of pious activities in the past life, then just see, to be loved by Kṛṣṇa, how much one has to undergo pious activities. Kṛta*-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. That is described. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. Puñja means heaps, volumes, volumes of pious activities. Then one can come to Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. Nobody can come to Kṛṣṇa unless he has background of pious activities and one who has become freed from all sinful activities. Yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. This is the qualification. [break] Girirāja: ...some of our disciples, it is seems that in this life they did many sinful activities. *Prabhupāda: But because they have surrendered, all sinful activities is counteracted. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. Anyone surrenders sincerely to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, immediately he becomes free from all reaction of sinful life. Because he is saved. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: "Don't worry." This is the process. So however one might have done or executed so many sinful activities, if he fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, then everything is counteracted immediately. But not that repetition, that "I surrender to Kṛṣṇa; *then again I'll do some sinful activities and again I surrender." This business will not be allowed. This is called nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ. That is the greatest sin, on the strength of Kṛṣṇa's mercy, to go on repeating sinful activities. That is greatest sin. Kṛṣṇa can excuse you-ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa..., mā śucaḥ-but you don't make it business, that "I commit all sinful activities and surrender to Kṛṣṇa to counteract." No, this is not good. This will not be allowed. [break] ...but you cannot cheat him. Then you'll suffer. *Girirāja: [break] "...been pleased by his undergoing all kinds of penances and austerities, and he must have executed universal welfare activities for all living creatures. The Nāga*-patnīs confirmed that one cannot come in contact with Kṛṣṇa without having executed pious activities in devotional service in his previous lives." [break] Prabhupāda: ...double feature is not understood by the Māyāvādīs. If Kṛṣṇa has created the whole, so why he should be separate? He is not separate, still separate. [break] ...regularly this book Kṛṣṇa, he will be liberated, simply by reading this book. Girirāja: [break] "...narration of the Kāliya serpent and his punishment will need fear no more the envious activities of snakes. The Lord also declared, 'If one takes a bath in the Kāliya lake where My cowherd boyfriends and I have bathed, or if one, fasting for a day, offers oblations to the forefathers from the water of this lake, he will be relieved from all kinds of sinful reaction.' " [break] Bhāgavata: ...actually are devotees or how do they become demons? Are they devotees? Obviously Kāliya is... Just like Jaya and Vijaya, they were devotees. And due to some offense, then they became demons and they fought with Kṛṣṇa to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Anyone who is living in this material world is a demon. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is your mother? Indian Lady: She is at home. Bhāgavata: But only certain demons get to fight with Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is special demon. Bhāgavata: So those special demons, are they are all like Jaya and Vijaya, are they all in that position? Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Bhāgavata: But to get to fight with Kṛṣṇa, they must have performed many pious activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: Like Kāliya. So then if they have performed so many pious activities, then obviously they have done something very mischievous in order to take this demon's body? There is some falldown? Prabhupāda: Yes. Without some mischievous activities... (end) Morning Walk -- May 3, 1974, Bombay *Prabhupāda: Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā [SB 12.13.1]. So the brāhmaṇas, although sura, he does not know Kṛṣṇa. Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā. The asuras, they do not know. Sometimes they... Muhyanti yat surayaḥ. So this was the test. Kṛṣṇa made a test, that "These brāhmaṇas are very much proud of their learning, Vedic knowledge. [break] They do not know Me." Yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Yatatām api siddhānām. They were siddhas, but they do not know Kṛṣṇa. Yes. *Bhāgavata: They were not śuddha*-sāttvika. They were only sāttvika. *Prabhupāda: Yes, on the sāttvika. Yes, you are right. One has to go above the sāttvika position, śuddha*-sattva. Sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vasudeva-śabditam. From Vasudeva conception, the Vāsudeva comes out. *Dr. Patel: Now, after the śuddha*-sattva form that you get... *Prabhupāda: That is vasudeva*-sattva. Dr. Patel: Then you are the real devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: After that also, you go beyond all the three guṇas. Then you become... [break] Prabhupāda: ...vasudeva-śabditam. All right, go on. Girirāja: "When the boys saw that the brāhmaṇas would not speak to them, they became very disappointed. They then returned to Lord Kṛṣṇa..." (reading) [break] Prabhupāda: ...devotees of Kṛṣṇa becomes very much disappointed when one sees that the other one is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Girirāja: "They then returned to Lord Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma and explained everything that had happened. After hearing their statements, the Supreme Personality began to smile. He told them that they should not be sorry for being refused by the brāhmaṇas." Prabhupāda: And this is the position of the preacher. Even if you are disappointed, you should not stop your preaching. You should go on with your business. Girirāja: "He told them that they should not be sorry for being refused by the brāhmaṇas. Because that is the way of begging. He convinced them that while one is engaged in collecting or begging, one should not think that he will be successful everywhere. He may be unsuccessful in some places but that should not be cause for disappointment." *Prabhupāda: [break] ...tama dāsa Ṭhākura has said, karma*-kāṇḍa jñāna-kāṇḍa, kevala viṣera bhāṇḍa. Bhāṇḍa. It is a pot of poison. Karma-kāṇḍa, karma-kāṇḍa process and the jñāna-kāṇḍa process, karmīs and the jñānīs... Karma-kāṇḍa jñāna-kāṇḍa, kevala viṣera bhāṇḍa: "Both of them are poison pots." Jñāna-kāṇḍa also. Dr. Patel: But jñāna, you say, bhakti or jñāna automatically comes up. *Prabhupāda: No, bhakti does not depend on jñāna, but jñāna depends on bhakti. Without bhakti, one cannot get liberation simply by jñāna. But if one develops bhakti, automatically he gets jñāna. Karma*-kāṇḍa jñāna-kāṇḍa, kevala viṣera bhāṇḍa. Viṣera bhāṇḍa, amṛta baliyā yebā khāya. If one mistakes that this is the pot of nectarean, ambrosia, then what is the result? Nānā yoni sadā phire: "He remains within the cycle of birth and death." Nānā yoni sadā phire, kadarya bhakṣaṇa kare. And if he gets the body of a hog and dog, then he eats all the abominable things. Nānā yoni, tāra janma adhah-pāte yāya. So he condemns his human form of body in this way, spoils. So one should not be attached to karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. [break] The inhabitants there, they can go from one planet to another without any aeroplane. That is Siddhaloka. Hm. Go on. Dr. Patel: The highest is Satyaloka, no? Prabhupāda: Brahmaloka. No highest Brahmaloka, where Lord Brahmā lives. Yaduvara: "There was beating of drums, and being inspired by godly feelings, the residents of Gandharvaloka began to play on their tamburās to please the Lord. Once when he was..." [break] Prabhupāda: ...what is God. Such innocent. You see? They thought, "Might be some demigod." That's all. Yaduvara;: "O Nanda Mahārāja, we are now in great doubt. Your son Kṛṣṇa must be one of the demigods." [break] Prabhupāda: ...the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yaduvara: "And he saved all honest men from the hands of the dishonest." [break] Prabhupāda: ...Vṛndāvana inhabitants, they are always anxious how to save the cows, always. They are connected with cows. *Yaduvara: "Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta purport of the Twenty*-sixth chapter of Kṛṣṇa, Wonderful Kṛṣṇa." [break] Prabhupāda: ...only Indra, even an ordinary person, he thinks he is all in all. Dr. Patel: When he does work, he says, ahaṁ kartā, ahaṁ kartā. *Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. They think like that, the mūḍhas. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Vimūḍha. Not only mūḍha, vimūḍha. *Dr. Patel: Viśeṣa*-mūḍha. Prabhupāda: Viśeṣa. But... you are right. "Specifically mūḍha." [break] Dr. Patel: Janma karma me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. *Prabhupāda: No. Yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra*-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-krama... *Dr. Patel: Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...asura also, they cannot understand, and these so*-called scholars, they are interpreting Kṛṣṇa. Go on. Vimūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: All the Vaiṣṇava books, all... [break] Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava ācārya... Dr. Patel: No, Vaiṣṇavas, all quotes come from Vaiṣṇavas. They all believe in the form. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: Then I was not able to grasp it, though I am born Vaiṣṇava from my right birth. [break] Yaduvara: Lord Indra is saying that Kṛṣṇa is so merciful that without punishing the offenses of the demons, that He devises means so that their false prestige is subdued. How is that? How does he devise means without punishment. Prabhupāda: This is the device, that he agitated Indra, and he came down and surrendered unto Him. This is the device. Not directly punishing. That he came to understand what is the value of Kṛṣṇa. Yaduvara: "My dear Lord, You are the supreme father, supreme spiritual master and supreme king." [break] *Prabhupāda: ...accepted by Indra is all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. [break] ...composed after Mahābhārata. Yaduvara: "Due to my gross ignorance, I created great disturbance in Vṛndāvana by sending torrents of rain and heavy hailstorms." [break] Prabhupāda: ...first of all, being observed by father of Kṛṣṇa. It is very important. [break] ...necessity of tapasya, if one worships Kṛṣṇa? Nārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim. And after austerities, if he does not know Kṛṣṇa, then what is the value of his tapasya? [break] ...imitating here, that is lust. Dr. Patel: Anything with a view on the sex is lust. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is lust. Here everything is lust. Center is lust. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. The central point is sex. Dr. Patel: What this...? (end) Morning Walk -- May 9, 1974, Bombay Dr. Patel: No, no, but even for Vaiṣṇavas, sāṅkhya... *Prabhupāda: Sāṅkhya is required, but the cause of sāṅkhya must be understood, cause of all causes. Sāṅkhya philosophy is our philosophy, Vaiṣṇava, because it was enunciated by Kapiladeva. Later on, the atheist sāṅkhya, they wiped out God. [break] Na brahmā na rudra ca. These are the Vedic mantras. [break] Koṭi*-brahmāṇḍa-vigraha. Koṭi-brahmāṇḍa-vigraha. Innumerable universes are there in the body of Kṛṣṇa. [break] Dr. Patel: Now they are not... The government is telling lies, that some people have come to work, and they have... [break] Prabhupāda: ...bindu sama, suta mitā ramaṇī samāje, sohe viṣere mana, tahe samarpala, ābrahma yuga hobo kono kāj.(?) This is Vidyāpati's song, that "We are seeking water in the desert." Taṭala saikata. Saikata, means the sandy beach and very hot. So then water is required. But we get little water. What is that? Suta mitā ramaṇī samāje. In the society, friendship and love, we are seeking that happiness, and it is exactly like seeking water in the desert. Although there is little happiness, but what is the comparison? Vāri bindu sama. I want water, but it is a drop of water. Vāri bindu. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So when there is requisition of water like seas and ocean, what this one drop will do? He admits there is little happiness, but this happiness is nothing that we want in comparison. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Taṭala saikata, vāri bindu sama, suta mitā ramaṇī samāje, tahe viṣere mana, tahe samarpala, havana yughamala na kāj. Mādhava āmāra pari nama nirasa (?): "Therefore, my Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see my future is hopeless, and therefore I surrender unto You. There is no other way." Mādhava āmāra pari nama nirasa, tuhu jagad taraṇa, dīna dayāla, ataeva tohari varosa (?), that "I have no other hope. Simply hope you are." Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...is better, the breathing air. That side is... Indian Man (1): Now the wind is changing, this side. Prabhupāda: This side is pūrva. Indian Man (1): No, this is east. This is north. Prabhupāda: Oh, north. So here, this is pūrva... Indian Man (1): The rains will come from southwest. Prabhupāda: Southwest, oh, yes. Dr. Patel: It has not changed as yet. Still... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...even the sun, what to speak of other things, even the sun, the central point of this universe. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta*-kāla-cakraḥ. It is also rotating in the orbit by order of Govinda. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...nama utila pi-asa nīre (?). Now, if you live on the ocean and if you are thirsty, you cannot drink a drop. You will have to die. Nīra kari vasa (?). Although the same water we are drinking. Is it not, Dr.? Dr. Patel: Yes. Water, water everywhere, not a drop to drink. Prabhupāda: Yes. The same water drinking, but when it is purified by the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa... You cannot drink. And still, you are scientist. (Hindi) Dr. Patel: One boy from engineers' school of technology here in Bombay has found out a method of... Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. He will turn one cup of seawater into sweet water and it will cost some hundreds of rupees. Dr. Patel: That is right, but these fellows, they have found some natural way. Prabhupāda: Well. Dr. Patel: He is passing it through this banana leaf, some very rational method. Prabhupāda: Banana leaf. So that also required by God's mercy. Dr. Patel: Nobody says that he does himself. If he says, he's a fool. But what I mean to say is from that way... And the government of Ceylon has (indistinct) the world over, this method. There was a big row about it. This boy approached the Bombay Municipal Corporation (indistinct) they say... [break] Prabhupāda: ...scientist. Dr. Patel: Scientist, that you say. Einstein never claimed that he is... Einstein was a great bhakta. Einstein is the grandfather... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Patel: ...of the modern science. He never claimed that anything can be done by man. Einstein has always said it is God who does it. Still you say that "Scientists are atheists. Fight them"? Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. Patel: I don't think that is right statement. Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many scientists like..., but generally they think in their way. Just like modern scientists, they are trying to prove: from chemicals, life. Indian Man (2): Jagadish Candra Bose, he was a great scientist. (Hindi) He can answer how many wise (?) He can answer. Dr. Patel: There is no question of... He cannot make even a grain of sand. Scientists, if they say that they are making, that is wrong. They are finding out what is already admitted. Prabhupāda: No. Some of them say, "Now there is no need of God. Science is everything." Even Dr. Radhakrishnan was saying in a meeting. Dr. Patel: No, what is science? Prabhupāda: Science means... Dr. Patel: Science means knowledge. And knowledge is there. Knowledge means God. Prabhupāda: Practical... Dr. Patel: But we are trying to honor the knowledge which we have not now known... *Prabhupāda: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When one understands, "Oh, here is the original source of everything," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19], that is greatest scientist. And how this knowledge comes? Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. They are struggling for the ultimate knowledge. So struggling many, many births after births, when, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he comes to the real knowledge, then he admits, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Indian Man (3): (Hindi conversation) [break] Prabhupāda: ...and police is controlling by beating them. Now they will go to the office, and again they will come in that way. And coming home for two cāpāṭis. You see? That's all. Dr. Patel: They reach their office at two o'clock. Prabhupāda: Just see. And again... (Hindi) Dr. Patel: Modern civilization is the civilization of the indriyas. We want a civilization... Prabhupāda: No, no, indriyas... Material civilization means indriyas, but it should be so organized. That is the Vedic principles, that you enjoy your indriyas in a systematic way so that you may not fall again, another difficulty. That is the Vedic way. Dr. Patel: The whole background of that modern civilization is indriyas. *Prabhupāda: Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. That civilization is yajñārthe karma. You work, but for yajña. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. (Hindi) ...modern science... (Hindi) ...This is mistake. Indian Man (4): This is not the ultimate solution. Prabhupāda: No, that is not. Dr. Patel: Ultimate solution, nobody knows. Prabhupāda: Dr. Patel: Bombay also is hell. Bombay, nobody inhabited this island till the Britishers came, and they created this spot. The importance of Bombay backward... Otherwise so far hell is concerned they are both place. Best is Bangalore in India. Best. Prabhupāda: [break] Doctor can manage securing medicine, distributing. That is another thing. Indian Devotee (5): Actually, from his talk I could understand that he actually doesn't want to do much. He said he will not be able to come and examine the patients even. Prabhupāda: Then? Indian Devotee (5): He says, "You try to find some other doctor." He told me, "You find out names and addresses of the local doctors, and we'll pick one of them." Prabhupāda: No, no, we cannot divert our attention. It is not possible. Say, "No." You can say that "We consulted Prabhupāda. He said, 'At the present moment, unless our building is there, we cannot accept any other extra business.' " Tell him like that. [break] Yaśomatīnandana: I suggested. [break] *Prabhupāda: For nothing. No, no, that is not possible. These are for the karmīs, bodily concept of life. If government has got so many hospitals, what is the use of opening a teeny hospital by us? Vivekananda policy*-to collect money by school and hospital. So you can tell him that "At the present moment, we are concerned about the sanction of the building and temple. So when the building is there, then we can consider, not at the present moment. We require money. We collect for this purpose. We cannot divert attention for medicine and other things." Indian Devotee (5): Actually I could gather that he just talked because he also said that we should train up some devotees to do bandage and other things like that. Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, no, this is not. Bhāgavata: We do all the work, and he gets advertised as a great charitable doctor. Prabhupāda: That's it. Bhāgavata: That he has opened the clinic. *Prabhupāda: Daridra*-nārāyaṇa-sevā. We are not all these false things. Doctor Ghosh is also after daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. [break] We will collect medicine. Our... We shall pay for the expenditure. Our men will be engaged for bandaging. (laughs) Nonsense. Bhāgavata: And the preaching stops. Prabhupāda: Ah. They cannot understand what is the meaning of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are such dull headed men. They have no brain to understand. They are coming down again. Just like the dog's tail. Know, dog's tail. You may, however grease it... (laughs) They are hearing about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The aim is the body, the dog's tail. They are hearing daily about Kṛṣṇa na..., but they cannot understand. It is very difficult. These karmīs... Now they say... Because we are reading this *Bhāgavatam*, now gradually they dispersed. Gradually they dispersed. They are not interested. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And if you talk politics and all nonsense, oh, they will gather. Bhāgavata: [break] ...take Caraṇāravindam from the hospital. So before we left, we had kīrtana. And immediately all the patients became happier. Prabhupāda: Just see. Bhāgavata: The whole attitude was very dull and unhappy and morose, that "Oh, we are in the hospital. My body, my body..." As soon as we had the kīrtana, they all got out of the bed and they came and stood around and they watched and some were clapping and chanting. Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately life. Oh, just try to understand how much great responsibility you have got. Bhāgavata: They all appreciated that we made this kīrtana. Prabhupāda: Even the Russians appreciated. (aside:) Don't push it in my mouth. Satsvarūpa (?): Oh, I'm sorry. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. [break] "...bright*-faced." [break] They are surprised to see the American boys. "Are you Americans?" Do they not question? Yes. Completely changed. They cannot recognize. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. (Śrīla Prabhupāda laughs) Bhāgavata: They are only used to seeing the hippies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: With beard and the hair, dirty. Girirāja: My parents telephoned last week, and at first they couldn't recognize my voice. They couldn't believe that it was me. Prabhupāda: Then? Girirāja: Kṛṣṇa consciousness has changed the... Prabhupāda: So your father said that "I could not..." Girirāja: Yes. He said, "Are you sure it's you?" Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just like a lawyer. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Mother is also very nice. Unless father and mother is nice... I told your mother also. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...she become beautiful, now there is lusty desire. Girirāja: (reading) "She frankly proposed to Kṛṣṇa, 'My dear hero, I cannot leave you...' " Prabhupāda: She was a prostitute. She was a prostitute but engaged in Kaṁsa's service. In India the prostitutes are engaged as maidservants in respectable houses still. During daytime they serve in some house, and at night they become prostitute. There are many prostitutes. One prostitute, when we were boys, she was coming to serve my mother as a lady barber. There is lady barber, for serving the ladies. And at night she was standing as prostitute. [break] ...a good relation with the neighborhood. There was no enviousness. "She is doing her own business. That's all." Bhāgavata: So then it is looked on as a necessity in the society. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prostitute is necessity. Otherwise these rascals, they will pollute all the woman. Therefore, for the rascals there must be some provision. Just like opening wine shop. It is not meant for everyone. But there are drunkards. Unless they get drinking, they will create some disturbance. Bhāgavata: So just like in Dvārakā there was prostitutes, and they were all devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many devotees, prostitutes. Bhāgavata: So that was their service, not their service, but that was their work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāgavata: But, still they were devotees of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their profession, livelihood, but they are devotees. In Calcutta, there is a big temple. It is called Kāca*-Kāminī's temple. Kāca-Kāminī means she was a prostitute, but she was kept by a very big businessman who was dealing in glass, mirrors and all... So he has made a temple for her with glass and mirrors. Therefore it is called kāca. Kāca means glass. Kāca-Kāminī. [break] ...have a dispensary. Dr. Ojha. He thinks in this way people can be saved. That is also necessary, but not as necessary as this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Girirāja: Chapter Forty*-two. The Killing of the Elephant Kuvala... [break] Prabhupāda: We are speaking of Kṛṣṇa. No Indians are interested. Just see. (Hindi) Dr. Patel and his company. (Hindi) [break] Hear about the expedition to moon but not about Kṛṣṇa. What is that? Devotee: It came off. Prabhupāda: No, it is all right. Devotee: There's another one underneath. (end) Room Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady -- May 23, 1974, Rome Yogeśvara: "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord over the material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature." Prabhupāda: So this is our... because we are developing a different consciousness... Different... Consciousness is one, but it is being colored under different circumstances. And therefore we have to accept a similar type of body. So if our consciousness is cleansed, then we do not undergo the circumstantial changes by different species of life. That is required. In the human form of life we can do that, not to associate with the modes of material nature, but associate with God. That we can do. And if we associate with God, then we become liberated from the clutches of māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. And our real business is how to get out of the clutches of māyā. Guest: Give up this staying here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: How? *Prabhupāda: We have to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness because such consciousness will help us to be free from the contamination of these different types of material consciousness and save us from transmigrating from one body to another. So we accept this different association on account of our strong propensity for sense gratification. Therefore we have to purify the senses so that the senses may be engaged in the service of the master of the senses. Hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa*-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate. *Devotee: Your master, does he study Bhagavad*-gītā? Guest: My master is a teacher of the science of the soul. Prabhupāda: What is that science of the soul? Guest: Well, just like what you have been saying, purifying the senses and becoming in consciousness through a master, to know a way of purification by not..., living(?) properly and thinking properly. Prabhupāda: The idea is purify the senses. Guest: And meditation, meditation. Being devoted, your life will be changed. The master teaches these things, purification. He has written also some books. When he came to America in 1967, I met him personally. And he initiated a group of people. And I was also aiming at that, being a vegetarian a few years prior to that. He accepted me and gave me initiation with the group. And, of course, he went back in about... He stayed in the States about twelve days then he came in Europe. Then he went back. I haven't seen him ever since. I have a picture of him. I carry a picture of him, the leader of, in our movement. (indistinct) meditating on the master. And I try to live up to it, to the teachings. Would you like to see that picture? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, I have seen this gentleman. In Delhi I have seen him. Guest: In New Delhi. And there are the five names of meditation on the back. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: I can't read it. *Atreya Ṛṣi: Niran, san, oṁkara, dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham, sat*-nām. *Guest: Sat*-nām. Those five names, according to your ways, position, you will be attracted to one of the names. Everyone has a center of power, energy, the way he taught us. Whatever you fear(indistinct), what particular name one(indistinct), some one that you're attracted to meditating on. (indistinct) dvāroṁkāra, so 'ham and sat-nām. I thought that I met a good master. Dhanañjaya: Mr. O'Grady. Desmond O'Grady and some of his friends have just arrived. They'd like to come and see you and speak with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is the Irish poet. (guests enter) Satsvarūpa: Please sit down. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. How are you? Woman: Very well, thank you. O'Grady: We are very well and very tired. We've been traveling a long, long way, a long road from Delhi. Dhanañjaya: Desmond is a poet. He's written books also, published in London. And tomorrow he goes to Sicily to a convention of poets and writers, international conference for writers and poets. He's representing Ireland, he's coming from Limerick in Southern Ireland. *O'Grady: This is my friend, Michael Robert (indistinct) We are colleagues together since we teach literature, English literature. And this is another friend of ours who has just come from Greece. Everybody seems to be traveling within the last twenty*-four hours. This is a young painter friend of mine, Bob Jackson, also from Ireland, whose first time in Italy, out of Ireland, and he's staying with me at the moment. He came back with me from Ireland just a few weeks ago. Prabhupāda: We are also writing books, so many. You have seen our books? O'Grady: I have seen some, yes, because some of the friends have come up and... *Prabhupāda: Some of the books, you can show him. Here is one book, Bhagavad*-gītā. *Yogeśvara: You have seen the Bhagavad*-gītā, haven't you, in English? O'Grady: Oh, yes, but not this particular edition. Yogeśvara: This we just recently published in German, a German edition. (Yogeśvara discusses books with O'Grady for a minute) Bhagavān: All these books are illustrated by our artists in New York. O'Grady: They illustrated this? Bhagavān: Oh, yes, they are beautiful. Bob Jackson(?): Some fantastic work. When you came to the house... O'Grady: The text is in... Bhagavān: There's original text in Bengali. This book is in Bengali. O'Grady: And Sanskrit. Bhagavān: Sanskrit, which Prabhupāda translates himself and gives the explanation and purport. Every night Śrīla Prabhupāda dictates into a dictaphone, and his secretaries type and edit. And then we have a press in New York which composes and prints. O'Grady: It's a very nice edition, that Macmillan edition. Very nicely done. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have fifth edition within two years. Five editions. O'Grady: Five editions in two years. Prabhupāda: Yes. And each time they print fifty thousand books. O'Grady: This new printing. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. In London about few months ago we got report they sold thirty thousand copies in two months. O'Grady: Thirty thousand. Prabhupāda: Yes. Woman: In which country of Europe has the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement been the most powerful or successful? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Woman: Every one? *Prabhupāda: Everywhere, yes. In Africa, in America, in Canada, in Japan, in China. Most successful in America. Most successful*-many men have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Woman: What about Greece? Prabhupāda: I never went to Greece. Satsvarūpa: You said you went to the airport and they were chanting. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: Really? Woman: I would think they would be in danger in Athens. Bhagavān: It is danger. Woman: There's no way that this movement could be very successful in Athens or in Greece. Not too many things are successful in Greece. Prabhupāda: Yes, when I was going to Nairobi from London I got down, transit, on the hall. Some young men, as soon as they saw me, they began to chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa. O'Grady: No, really? In Greece, this was, in Athens? Prabhupāda: Athens, yes. O'Grady: Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of... Do you think they're going... Well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That problem is everywhere. O'Grady: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired. O'Grady: They become tired. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome... Prabhupāda: But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter) O'Grady: No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now. Prabhupāda: I think the fighting is going on still. O'Grady: Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here... *Prabhupāda: You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātu... There is a verse in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog." The cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think as Irishman, "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped. O'Grady: What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference. O'Grady: The Englishman thinks there's a difference. Prabhupāda: No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When we think that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go*-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You will find this verse. Find out this verse, Nitāi: Yes, 14.26. Prabhupāda: Purport. Prabhupāda: O'Grady: The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously... Prabhupāda: Just like in our society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Mohammedans. But they are no longer Mohammedan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Kṛṣṇa. And that is Brahmān realization. O'Grady: But that's giving it a name also. *Prabhupāda: Yes, name, must be there. But name... Just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Kṛṣṇaite quality, that in spite of different names... That is called so 'ham. One feels... The same example: In a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā? Nitāi: Prabhupāda: He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes, purport? O'Grady: Could you read the opening little bit again? Nitāi: In the purport? O'Grady: Yeah. *Nitāi: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma*-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word." O'Grady: O.K. Now, is the Absolute internal or external? Prabhupāda: Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute. O'Grady: I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own Absolute, ultimately the Absolute that one finds for oneself. Prabhupāda: No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute. O'Grady: So therefore there is a life beyond time. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Nitāi: Chapter Four, text nine: Prabhupāda: And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to..., in the spiritual world, that is absolute. O'Grady: When he goes back to his original. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute. O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time? Prabhupāda: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nations. And after that again there was war. (chuckles) O'Grady: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nations. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united, but when I go New York, I see flags are increasing, no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so*-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform. O'Grady: I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, an intuition that... *Prabhupāda: No, there is possibility*-when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black..." O'Grady: Christian. Prabhupāda: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world. O'Grady: That's very... I'll accept that. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are. O'Grady: I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom. Prabhupāda: No human being is immortal. O'Grady: Mortal, mortal, mortal. Prabhupāda: Mortal. O'Grady: That which dies, rots and is forgotten. *Prabhupāda: That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Find out. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. O'Grady: But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing? Prabhupāda: No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. Read this verse. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality... Because actually he is immortal. O'Grady: Actuality is immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. O'Grady: Hm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect. Prabhupāda: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth... O'Grady: Never takes bath? Yogeśvara: Birth. O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in gentle conversation. Prabhupāda: Actually... Just like you are sitting in a different dress; *I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body-"I am Irishman, I am Englishman, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian,"*-these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations. O'Grady: Accepted. Prabhupāda: So when one is free from the designations, then he becomes purified. Bhagavān: That can be experienced in the present. *Prabhupāda: Yes, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups*-Americans, Indians, Africans-but you don't think yourself as American or Indian or African. O'Grady: But the system insists that you do. Bhagavān: The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality. O'Grady: But that's unavoidable. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: Because of your physical existence... Prabhupāda: Unavoidable, yes... O'Grady: And your personal spiritualism as well. Prabhupāda: But it can be avoided in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water. O'Grady: I didn't catch that last expression, no. Bhagavān: Lily leaf. Yogeśvara: To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental. Bhagavān: There's a lily leaf that sits on the water and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Prabhupāda is explaining we can be in this world... O'Grady: But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one. Because if you put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements here you should get a mountain of salt. Atreya Ṛṣi: If you can try to understand this example. O'Grady: Oh, I can, understand. Prabhupāda: What is that, salt? Salt example was... Explain. Yogeśvara: What was your point? O'Grady: I'm saying its difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different. Prabhupāda: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty. O'Grady: Yes, I accept that, of course. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is... [break] Atreya Ṛṣi: ...there's a great different between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking... Prabhupāda: That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious. O'Grady: God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious. O'Grady: To become self conscious. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: To be conscious of who you are yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness. O'Grady: Well, it may be. Prabhupāda: No. O'Grady: You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect. Prabhupāda: When you are God conscious... O'Grady: Without being pantheistic, you mean? Prabhupāda: Just Like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious... you also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear. *O'Grady: Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most good for them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state-because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition, they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one*-what we are faced with, is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here"? "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way: "Who am I?" "You are..." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also. Prabhupāda: So... O'Grady: And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally... And one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or... Well, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our Vedic process is... There are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master." O'Grady: One must...? Prabhupāda: Approach the bona fide spiritual master. Atreya Ṛṣi: Approach. O'Grady: The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do? Prabhupāda: No, there is. O'Grady: If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do? *Prabhupāda: No, we have got standard. Who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like... The one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the... Just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man. O'Grady: Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master*-if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Kṛṣṇa who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. O'Grady: But then, you see my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a simple man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says, "Well, they tell me, the priests they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God." Prabhupāda: No. O'Grady: And then he comes to me and asks me and says, "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between God and me. *O'Grady: That's the difference between being seventy and thirty*-nine. *Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of... That is explained in the..., that Bhāgavata, Brahma*-sūtra, who is God, first of all. Who is God? O'Grady: Who told God? *Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God... That is the Vedānta*-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said, that "Who taught God?" O'Grady: Yes, that's the man I want to meet. *Prabhupāda: That is answered, sva*-rāṭ. "Independent." That is God. O'Grady: Independ...? Prabhupāda: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God. O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it? Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God. O'Grady: Therefore we love. Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God. O'Grady: But God is not love? Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything. O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. O'Grady: Our manifestations of love are manifestations of God. Prabhupāda: Ah... Because we are part and parcel... Just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms, so because there is loving propensity in God and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it? O'Grady: Maybe it's generated in you by the need... Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be, must be. O'Grady: Oh, very... Yes, I accept the strong word. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no question of... Because we have defined God, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity*-absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same, therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from śāstras. The so-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection. O'Grady: Yes, the vengeful... Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against... Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone? *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet, this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar... This is called vidhiliñ form of verb. So vidhiliñ form of verb is used when there is a..., matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. And that is the Vedic version. Therefore... You have read Bhagavad-gītā. You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. Find out this verse. Nitāi: Text seven. Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Here is the question, "confused." O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that what is the... Thank you. Nitāi: "...and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am..." O'Grady: This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state? *Prabhupāda: He is confused because he was a kṣatriya, soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Kṛṣṇa was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a kṣatriya. Why you are trying to become non*-violent? This is not good." Therefore he says, "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician; similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge. O'Grady: Right. So, therefore, for example, I am very confused. Prabhupāda: What is that? Atreya Ṛṣi: He is confused. O'Grady: Very confused. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master. O'Grady: And you make a decision, therefore to try to sort this confusion, to make some... Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test. O'Grady: A friend, for example, yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: A real friend. O'Grady: Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of... *Atreya Ṛṣi: True well*-wisher. *O'Grady: There's no question of being half*-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend. Prabhupāda: Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend. O'Grady: The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master. O'Grady: O.K. Thank you. That I know. *Prabhupāda: Therefore God is called caittya*-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without, without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated, Nitāi: Prabhupāda: The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction. "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the... So if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we want something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He's very kind. Īśvaraḥ sarva... I want to have something and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know, we must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master. O'Grady: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. O'Grady: His Grace must be very tired. Dhanañjaya: We can distribute some prasādam now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Give them. Bhagavān: Stay, we have some prasādam. Michael Robert: We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and met our students. They're invited to come. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Yogeśvara: It's a school in Rome. Prabhupāda: Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. It is my duty. O'Grady: Just to pay a visit, meet the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness. O'Grady: God consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Thank you very much. Michael Robert: Thank you all. Atreya Ṛṣi: Please stay for one minute. Prabhupāda: Please take prasāda. Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction. O'Grady: Well, in my experience, the process seems to be that while you begin... First of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this. Prabhupāda: And that choosing is given. This is this verse: avicyutaḥ arthaḥ: "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible. O'Grady: This one. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: Not his brother, not his sister, but this one. Atreya Ṛṣi: Everyone is important. O'Grady: But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it. Prabhupāda: No, no, just. When we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters. O'Grady: Yes, but you said... Prabhupāda: All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters. O'Grady: Yes, but what I was saying... Prabhupāda: The God means complete. Atreya Ṛṣi: You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen? O'Grady: I'm saying... Yes, a spiritual master the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God, that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music. Prabhupāda: No, whatever you do... music also, you can compose... O'Grady: That's it... Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. O'Grady: O.K., I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation. Prabhupāda: Not same thing. When you describe... Music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection. O'Grady: Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understood. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda is saying that when you're working in the land... O'Grady: That's what you're supposed to be doing. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work. O'Grady: I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of... Yogeśvara: You could say, with the same consciousness. O'Grady: Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same devotion, absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way, enjoying yourself the same way, and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. We should go. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. O'Grady: We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. (guests leave) (end) Morning Walk -- May 24, 1974, Rome Dhanañjaya: In fact, the word "London" is coming from the Latin word londonium. Londonium was a small fishing fort that the Roman's founded on the Thames. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are not sufficiently covered. Satsvarūpa: I'm all right. Prabhupāda: No, you are not all right. (pause) [break] Indian civilization is that they constructed big, big buildings, but for God, Kṛṣṇa, temple. And for the people, they were satisfied in small villages. So far the temples are concerned, South Indian temple, wonderful temple. (aside:) Not so near. Mostly Viṣṇu temple. We shall go this side? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: In Tokyo there is a park, this sound was there. (sound of birds chirping) Cement, no? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: And fish combined. Dhanañjaya: Yes, seahorse. Did such an animal exist, seahorse? Or is this man's imagination? Prabhupāda: No, seahorse we have heard, there is. Sea elephant, seahorse, there are. [break] Atreya Ṛṣi: ...fighting and all kinds of games. Four boys died that year trying to... [break] Prabhupāda: ...and Roman climate the same? No. Atreya Ṛṣi: Rome is a little warmer, isn't it? Dhanañjaya: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Now the whole city is a little more humid. Prabhupāda: Paris? Satsvarūpa: It's sunny. Atreya Ṛṣi: Sunnier than London. Very close to London. Dhanañjaya: Not cold like London ever. Prabhupāda: There is snow. [break] ...and Darjeeling. [break] Atreya Ṛṣi: Anthropomorphic. Prabhupāda: Anthropomorphic. That means man worship. Satsvarūpa: They deify a man. He's a man but the people make him as a god. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: They say that about Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa was a man, and then later His followers deified Him. That man wrote that in that pamphlet, Dr. Bannerjee, in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Oh, he has said like that? Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā manuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. So why they do not deify others? Only Kṛṣṇa. There were many big, big men. All the Pāṇḍavas were very big men. Kṛṣṇa was contemporate to the Pāṇḍavas. Why Kṛṣṇa was picked up, and not the Pāṇḍavas? What is the reason? Yogeśvara: The Pāṇḍavas were the devotees of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. This Anthropomorphism cannot be applied. Satsvarūpa: Their activities were not so great. Prabhupāda: Well, nobody's activities can be greater than God's activities. Yogeśvara: There was that lady who came to see you yesterday who asked that "Lord Jesus performed so many miracles. So what miracles did Kṛṣṇa perform?" So your reply was so many miracles, killing Putana and so on. But that was five thousand years ago. Kṛṣṇa's not here today. And people will ask, "Well we cannot see these miracles. So how can we accept Kṛṣṇa?" Bhagavān: Well they can't see Jesus's miracles either. Prabhupāda: (laughs) They can see the miracles of Jesus Christ? Yogeśvara: They will accept anyone. Prabhupāda: All such questions. No sober questions. Atreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa's miracles are in the hearts of devotees today. *Bhagavān: Kṛṣṇa's miracle is Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone can see. Who has given such information? All practical. *Bhagavān: There are so many scriptures all over the world, but just in the second chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa gives more knowledge than all of the other scriptures. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is the greatest miracle. These trees, not fruit trees? Dhanañjaya: No. [break] *Yogeśvara: ...is that "Okay, you present Bhagavad*-gītā as being the evidence for Kṛṣṇa, but so many people interpret Bhagavad-gītā. So where is the proof that it is miraculous if so many people debate it?" Prabhupāda: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. So what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains? So what is your debate on this point? Yogeśvara: Well, they may agree that the teachings are good, but they can't accept it as proof that Kṛṣṇa was God. Prabhupāda: Well, then you have to give me definition of God. What is God? If you know God, then you can say that "Kṛṣṇa is not God." Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? I give you a piece of gold: If you say, "It is not gold," then you show me what is gold. Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, "It is not this"? If you know the positive, then you can say the negative. Yogeśvara: Well, there are many people who say that they have actually experienced God. Prabhupāda: What is that God? Tell me. Yogeśvara: Well, it's like the Guru Maharaji people. They say they've seen Guru Maharaji lifting Govardhana Hill and displaying universal form and so many miracles. They say they have seen Guru Maharaji doing all the miracles that Kṛṣṇa claims to have done. Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, when Kṛṣṇa is present, when He lifted the Govardhana Hill, everyone saw. Where is your rascal Guru Mahārāja doing that, everyone can see? When Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. All the inhabitants saw it. [break] Atreya Ṛṣi: ...arising from Kṛṣṇa's pastimes proves that atheists cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Because they are atheists, they don't want to accept Him as God. Therefore they will not... Prabhupāda: Atheist do not accept God anywhere. So atheist is different thing. Atheist is atheist. Āsuriṁ. Āsuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Atheist has no knowledge. [break] Dhanañjaya: ...control the whole of Rome. They own nearly all the businesses. [break] Atreya Ṛṣi: ...a few enjoying very much. In the whole city, a lot of parks, a lot of amphitheaters and that is how they went to ruin. Prabhupāda: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. American luxury or European luxury leading to these hippies' poverty. Voluntarily they are accepting poverty. Opposite. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Pendulum. Dhanañjaya: What is that? (loud noise from birds) Prabhupāda: Cranes. Dhanañjaya: Cranes? Satsvarūpa: The zoo. Dhanañjaya: Those are pelicans, with the big bag underneath. And there are some South American animals, llamas. [break] Prabhupāda: ...fight with tiger and elephants? Atreya Ṛṣi: Lions. Dhanañjaya: They would use a trident and a net and they would try to throw the net over the lion and fight the lion like this. Prabhupāda: And kill? Dhanañjaya: And kill, yes. They would arm themselves with a helmet and some protection here for their arms and sometimes for their chest, and then they would attack with the trident. [break] Earlier Claudius. Atreya Ṛṣi: For enjoyment they would even put two gladiators fighting each other, two men killing each other, and they would all watch. Prabhupāda: Just see. That was in India also, that Kaṁsa's wrestling with Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Yogeśvara: Was that to the death? Prabhupāda: Yes. It comes automatically to death. Although it is not meant. Nobody will agree that "I am defeated." Therefore death. There must be death. What is this building? *Dhanañjaya: This is a mock mountain*-top for the goats and for other wild animals. Prabhupāda: Oh, this is artificial? Dhanañjaya: Artificial. Yogeśvara: There's one. There's a goat. (end) Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome Dhanañjaya: A philosophical society. Prabhupāda: Historic. Dhanañjaya: Not historical, more philosophical. And he writes many papers for the Catholic Church, for the Vatican. Prabhupāda: I was also student of philosophy in 1916 to 20 under professor Dr. W.S. Urquhart in Calcutta, Scottish Churches' College. He was my professor. Later on, he became vice chancellor, very big philosopher. We read Dr. Stephens Metaphysics. What is your special subject for study? Richard Webster: Well, it's rather difficult to say. I suppose medieval philosophy. Prabhupāda: Medieval. Richard Webster: From a modern point of view. Prabhupāda: What is that? Richard Webster: From a modern point of view. Prabhupāda: Modern. Richard Webster: I was not a specialist in medieval or anything. So it seems to me that... Prabhupāda: What is the conception? Richard Webster: They have some basic conceptions which are eternal in, the same way as your own, perhaps. Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature we have information, two eternals. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. It is personally identified. "There is one chief eternal, and there are many other eternals." So then it means the chief eternal is God, and other subordinate eternals are living entities. Just like we are all living entities. We are in different forms, but we are eternal. The form is not eternal, but the owner of the form is eternal. And similarly, the chief eternal is God. That is described in the *Vedas*, Richard Webster: Well, may I ask a question? I find in medieval European philosophy two different attitudes and..., which I find difficult to reconcile perfectly. That is to say the earlier Christians, up to the thirteenth Century, I suppose, were practically only thinking about God, nothing else but God so that nature or the human being, or any... everything else, tended to disappear altogether as also in some Indian philosophy, I think. And then, later on, with more modern science and so on you've got a different attitude in the Christians themselves, that is to say an attitude of acceptance towards subordinate things so that they became independent and finally, of course, broke away altogether so that nowadays we have science without God at all. But there was a sort of period in the late middle ages when St. Thomas Aquinas, who stopped thinking about God, only about God, and gave his attention to science, so they say. Well, there was a sort of conflict there. I don't quite know what to say about it whether I'm on one side or the other. That is to say if I were to (indistinct) the earlier Christian or (indistinct) There was Aquinas, for instance, who was a saint, but he would pray into the world, if you like. I wondered whether you would disapprove of that or... Prabhupāda: Yes, these different types of philosophers are always there, not only in the medieval age, in the previously also. It is said, na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. "A philosopher is not a philosopher if he does not present a different view." (laughter) This is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ (?). Tarka, by argument, logic, you cannot come to the right conclusion because you may be a good logician and then you meet another logician who is better than you. So his arguments may be stronger than your argument. Therefore, simply by arguments or logical premises, you cannot approach the Absolute Truth. Richard Webster: Oh, yes. I agree. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. Literatures are also, authentic literatures... Śrutayaḥ means authentic literature, which is acceptable. They are also various type. Just like Vedas. There are four Vedas: Sāma*-Veda, Yajur-Veda, Atharva-Veda, Ṛg-Veda. Then the Upaniṣads are there. Then the Vedānta-sūtra is there. So if we study all this Vedic literature or any other similar literature, it is very difficult to find out the Absolute Truth. Śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. And if we take the philosophers, so one philosopher differs from another philosopher. Na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Therefore, to approach the Absolute Truth, God, is very difficult subject matter. Therefore our principle is mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Mahājana means the recognized persons, recognized by the Supreme Lord, such persons we follow. We have got a list of recognized persons, just like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, the Manu. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Manu's name is there. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha [Bg. 4.1], this Manu. So Manu, then Kapila, then Prahlāda, Janaka, Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Yamarāja. In this way there are twelve mahājanas. And we receive knowledge from either of them. That is bona fide philosophy. That is called paramparā system. The original teacher is Kṛṣṇa and from Him the sun-god, Vivasvān, learned it. He spoke to his son, Manu. Manu spoke to his son, Ikṣvāku. In this way the paramparā system is coming. And that is bona fide. This is our philosophy, to accept knowledge from the perfect person or his bona fide representative. Richard Webster: And Christians, how do you present this? Suppose if someone was a Christian. Prabhupāda: Yes, Christian, if you take... Just like Lord Jesus Christ is a bona fide teacher, and he has given his teaching, his commandments. If you follow those commandments, then you are bona fide student. But if you don't follow then you are not bona fide. Richard Webster: And if you try to follow but fail or if you... Prabhupāda: No, you must follow. You cannot fail. Just like Lord Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." You must follow that. If you do not follow, then you are not Christian. It is not the question of that you could not follow or you are weak to follow. You must follow. Richard Webster: But the Christians have a thing about forgiveness of... Prabhupāda: Whatever is there... Richard Webster: Within the Christian religion there is a strong emphasis on possible failure and forgiveness. *Prabhupāda: No. Forgiveness is... I know that in church the confession program is there. Forgiveness... Suppose you are or I am an offender. I ask your forgiveness. So you can forgive me once, twice, thrice, not more than that. You cannot make it a profession that you go on committing sins and God will forgive you. No, that is not possible. That is misconception. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. This sudurācāraḥ, means offender, that is not willful offense. One person is accustomed to some bad habits, but he has taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. But on account of strong habit, if he fails sometimes, that is excused, forgiveness, not that willful committing sin and ask for forgiveness. That is not allowed. In common affairs we do not see. I have got practical, I mean to say, experience. In my householder life I was proprietor of a big pharmacy. So my manager sold some morphia preparation to some unauthorized person. So the sales inspector, they noted it and made us a criminal. And the magistrate called me because I was the proprietor. So my statement was given that "I do not conduct the business directly. Of course, I am responsible for my manager's fault, but I shall be very strict in future. You can forgive me." Immediately I was forgiven. But next time, if I go, if I say like that, that is not forgiven. That is not possible. So this forgiveness is good for accidental fault. But it cannot be continued, that is a wrong philosophy. Richard Webster: Does that apply to all the rules of the Kṛṣṇa movement? Prabhupāda: What is that? Richard Webster: For everyone. I mean rules about not drinking... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Richard Webster: Would that be a sin in a non*-Kṛṣṇa follower? Prabhupāda: It is for everyone. When we speak something from the Vedic scripture, that is meant for everyone. Richard Webster: I mean a Roman, perhaps, has never heard of Kṛṣṇa before. He breaks all your five rules, does he not, every day. Is that a sin in him? If he drinks wine... Dhanañjaya: He's saying, all the people in Rome who have never heard of Kṛṣṇa... Richard Webster: They drink wine and do all the things which are... Well, perhaps not all, but anyway, some of them. Would that be... Prabhupāda: I do not... Dhanañjaya: He's asking if they're very sinful if they don't have any knowledge of Kṛṣṇa or any of the rules of our movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Ignorance is no excuse. If there is law and if you do not know the law, and you commit offense, that is no excuse, that you do not know the law. Similarly, human life is meant for understanding God. That is the main business of human life. If one does not know this law, then he is sinful. Richard Webster: Yes, but the difficulty is for me, for instance, that I have the pope here who is telling me perhaps the same thing in spirit but with different rules, different laws practically. I mean the spirit seems to me to be the same, but... Prabhupāda: Law cannot be different, but it can be modified according to the time and circumstances. But the law cannot be different. Atreya Ṛṣi: Maybe you could ask specific examples of differences. Richard Webster: Well, for Roman Catholics it is right to drink wine, for instance. Atreya Ṛṣi: Drinking, intoxication. Richard Webster: Not intoxication, to drink wine. Atreya Ṛṣi: What is wine? He's saying that a Roman Catholic can take wine. The law allows them to take wine. Richard Webster: Or tobacco or meat. Atreya Ṛṣi: Or tobacco or meat. So the rules are different. Prabhupāda: Then rules are not different, but we have to see. Just like your commandments. In the commandments there is "Thou shall not kill." Then how you can eat meat? Richard Webster: Well, that is a possible argument, but I'm thinking about even lesser things such as wine or... Atreya Ṛṣi: Wine. Can... Richard Webster: And no Roman Catholic will admit that it is wrong to drink wine. Prabhupāda: Wine is sanctioned? Richard Webster: I don't mean to get drunk. I mean to... Atreya Ṛṣi: Wine, for today's Roman Catholics, they think it is sanctioned. Prabhupāda: They think so many other things also. Just like Roman Catholics, there is example: they have allowed marriage between man to man. Do you know that? Richard Webster: No. Prabhupāda: Yes. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. They publish a monthly magazine. I have seen in that magazine. They are condemning that the priests have allowed marriage, man to man. And... Richard Webster: In New York maybe. Not in Rome. Prabhupāda: Christianity does not mean in New York it should be different and Rome it should be different. Then nobody is following. Atreya Ṛṣi: Could it be, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this sanction of wine drinking be from God? Could that sanction come from God? Do we think that is possible? *Prabhupāda: We don't find there is sanction by God to drink. But under certain circumstances, beverages, different types of beverages allowed, not for intoxication but for keeping health. That is different thing. Just like in the moon planet, it is mentioned they drink soma*-rasa. Soma-rasa is a kind of beverage made from extract of herbs. So because it is very cold there, so they drink that, but not for intoxication. People drink for intoxication. Just like in medicine, so many drugs are used. Even opium is used. Yes. Morphia is used. But they are not used ordinarily. For a specific purpose. Even snake poison is used, but that does not mean snake poison should be used perpetually. So for benefit of the body under particular circumstances something may be recommended, but that is not for general use or for intoxication. That is condemned. Just like animal killing is sometimes prescribed in the yajña. The purpose is different. But that does not mean unrestricted animal killing in the slaughterhouse should go on, no. That is sinful. So if we violate the laws perpetually, then how we can consider as belonging to a certain group of religious system? There must be principles. Richard Webster: Well. I understand. But I only think that the dietetic rules would be perhaps an obstacle to the spreading... I mean certain rules which are clean against European or American custom might constitute an obstacle to the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I mean, in the Roman Catholic church you have the monks. Then you have the laity who observe less strict rules without being considered outside God. And you don't have that, do you? I mean, the Kṛṣṇa movement is a movement of what we should call monks or religious... There is no laity in the Roman Catholic Christian sense, people of the world who are doing messy things, I mean, trading the drugs or whatever it is because it's a job they have to do, but belong to the church without being strictly religious. Prabhupāda: At least the church people, the priests, they must follow strictly the rules. Richard Webster: Yes. But I mean the difference seems to be with the Christian... Prabhupāda: Common man may not follow or cannot, but those who are teachers or the priest or the leaders or the executive head, they must follow. Otherwise they cannot remain pure and they cannot take the position of teacher or head. Head must be clean. Other parts may be unclean, but the head must be clean; otherwise the whole business will be spoiled. Therefore, the strictures, rules and regulation, must be followed by four persons. One person is the executive head like the president or the king. And the other person is the religious preacher, priest. And the other person is the public leader. So at least these three, four heads of the men's human society, they must be of ideal character. Otherwise the whole society will be spoiled. People will follow the heads. Richard Webster: Well, I don't know whether these accusations have been proved in regards to Nixon. They may be true. Prabhupāda: No, no, I think they have. What are the charges against Nixon? Atreya Ṛṣi: Certainly he already... It all depends on the standards that we want to have for a president. In other words, he has not been convicted, but he has accepted, himself, certain charges, that he has lied and he has tried to save his men, and therefore he has lied, and he has evaded taxes. Richard Webster: Well, I don't know about that, you see. I'm only... Prabhupāda: No, there have been so many charges against president Nixon. So no, whatever it may be, we are not concerned. But this is the Vedic principle, that the king or the executive head of the state, the brāhmaṇa and the public leader must be very clean. Otherwise society will be spoiled. That is the injunction. Richard Webster: Yes, well, of course, I agree. *Prabhupāda: At the present moment there is all over the world... We are touring all over the world. It is very hard to find out ideal class of men. That is the defect. In the Vedic culture the ideal class of men were the brāhmaṇas. Their qualification was: truthful, self*-controlled, mind and the senses, and then tolerant, very simple life, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. These are ideal character. But such men are not available at the present moment. So therefore the social idealism is defective. Just like in your body, there are four divisions. The head, the arm, the belly and the leg. If the head is spoiled then you are a madman. In spite of possessing hands and bellies and legs, you cannot work properly. So at the present moment the heads are spoiled. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. People, advanced in education, still they are inimical, one man to another. If you are passing on in the street, the gentleman's house there is a signboard, "Beware of the dogs. Don't come in," because he cannot believe anyone. You go to the airport, any high-class standard man. They search out the pocket. So nobody is believable. So this is the result of modern education. You cannot find out an ideal character man. Richard Webster: Is this due to machines, do you think, to the prevalence of machines? *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is due to third*-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth-class and fifth-class. So at the present moment there is third-class, some, and all fourth-class and fifth-class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to..., because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men: unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third-class. It begins from the fourth-class men. Fourth-class, fifth-class. So if one remains to the category of the fourth-class, fifth-class man, how he can be trained up as first-class man? Therefore these things are prohibited because our aim is to create some first-class men. Richard Webster: Well, I agree with you. *Prabhupāda: These boys, although they are young men, they will never go to cinema. They are young men. They have got all propensities. But they are so elevated, they have given up all these low propensities, going to the club, restaurant, and cinema or naked dance and this and that, no. Because they are first*-class men, they cannot indulge in the third-class, fourth-class proclivities. We are training them in that way. That is required. Richard Webster: Well, yes, you said restaurants. Prabhupāda: Yes. Richard Webster: Is it that it depends on the restaurant or is that necessarily bad? *Prabhupāda: Yes, our principle is that we can eat only what is offered to God. So we cannot eat things in the restaurant because it is not offered to God. We may prepare nice things for Kṛṣṇa and offer to Him. Then we take. This is our principle. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva*-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña. Yajña means worshiping the Lord. So worship the Lord, it is not difficult. Everyone is cooking for eating, every home. So cook certain things which is acceptable to Kṛṣṇa. Then offer to Him and take the prasāda. There is no difficulty. But you become purified. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Because willfully or not willingly, we are committing so many sins. Richard Webster: Yes, I appreciate that very much. I only say is it not possible for things to be dedicated to God without actually being placed on the altar in that way? I mean what people may be doing that in different ways maybe... *Prabhupāda: No, thing is, if you want to offer to God, then-God is all-pure*-the things you offer, that must be pure. And you must follow the instruction of God. Suppose if you want to give me something eatable, as a matter of etiquette, you ask me, "What can I offer you?" And if I say that "You offer me this thing, and that is very nice," you cannot offer me according to your whims. That may not be acceptable by Him. Richard Webster: Yes, I was thinking... Prabhupāda: That, your dedication, must be with the sanction of God. If you dedicate something which is not sanctioned by God, then that offering is not pleasing. Suppose I have got a certain taste. If you ask me, "What kind of food I shall prepare for you..." In India, still the system is that the housewife asks the husband, the head of the family, "What you want to eat?" [break] ...offer something to God, you must take sanction from the God if He wants to eat that. Richard Webster: Oh, well I was thinking of things like work, the work which people do, with that offered to God... Atreya Ṛṣi: Service. Richard Webster: The work... Prabhupāda: Yes, the service also, you must take sanction. Anything you want to do you must take sanction from the Lord. You cannot do anything whimsically and you think that "I am rendering service to the Lord." Richard Webster: Oh, yes, but then the sanction, would that apply to scientific activities like engineering, one of the factories of producing (indistinct) Atreya Ṛṣi: Would God sanction activities in the factory, technological, scientific world? Prabhupāda: No, there is no sanction. These are all sinful activities. Richard Webster: These are material activities. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You have created all these things. God has not sanctioned. God has not sanctioned for running on a factory. Therefore as soon as you run on a factory, you simply commit sinful activities. In the Bhagavad*-gītā we don't find any such sanction that you run on a factory, a slaughterhouse or the brothel and this business and brewery no such sanction. But you have done at your whims. Just like in the last war, Mr. Churchill sanctioned or requested everyone to go to the church. What is that "V"? Victory? Yes. And now... Before starting the war, Mr. Churchill and company did not take any sanction. And when they were in reverse condition, then, that time, they are going to the church for victory. So God cannot be made in such a way as order supplier. That is not possible. This is not prayer. You start war whimsically, and when you are in a precarious condition you go to the church and pray God, "Give us victory." What is this? This is commanding God. But you have to follow the commands of God. That is your position. Richard Webster: Lord Chamberlain tried to stop the war. Prabhupāda: Well, Chamberlain may tried, might have tried to stop the war, but he could not stop the cause of the war. So far we know that the two wars started by Germany on account of Britain. So far I have studied. The German people did not like the Britishers to occupy the trade all over the world. And wherever they went to trade, they were restricting. I know this fact. In India the Britishers monopolized all trade, and they would not allow German goods to come in. So that was the cause of the war. The German knew that the Britishers, they are purchasing from Germany and stamping it "Made in London" and selling in India at high price. And when the Germans go there, they are not allowed to enter. This is the cause of the war. The Germans still, they do not like to speak in English. They are so envious. So Chamberlain might have tried to stop war, but his nation created the cause of the war. Why there should be... That was the demand, that free trade. Germans, in the, what is called, peace negotiation, their demand was free trade. Everyone... And that is very good. Why trade should be... This is unnatural. Let there be free trade. General public, they want best thing at good price, at cheap price. So if Japan and Germany can supply goods, necessary goods, at cheaper price, why they should be restricted? Let the people take advantage of it. Richard Webster: Well, I don't think they are restricted now. Prabhupāda: No, it is going on. In India I know. They are selling sugar at two annas, four annas a pound, or seer, outside, and India, it is four rupees. What is this nonsense? This is going on. They want to import some war materials or something else, therefore they want export exchange. So they are sacrificing the convenience of the local people for export exchange. These things are going on. These politicians, they create an atmo... Therefore I say the head of the state, they must be clean. But they are all motivated. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. Generally politician has got a particular motive behind him. And when he cannot pull on they declare war. That Pakistan. Pakistan, since the beginning of Pakistan they could not make any economic condition very sound. But when the people are too much agitated, they declare war with India. The whole attention is... And they have been educated in such a way that India is their strongest enemy. Anything Indian, they dislike in Pakistan. So this is going on by the politicians. They are creating situation because they are not honest, they are not clean. And a clean man cannot become politician. Mr. Lloyd George said that "consistency by the politician is the qualification of an ass." There cannot be any consistency amongst the politicians. So that is the defect, that the politicians are the heads, the leaders of the society, and they are in disagreement. Everyone has got his own ideal, and the fight is going on, and the poor man in the state, they are suffering. Just like in India they partitioned, Pakistan and Hindustan. It was arranged by the leaders, Jinnah and Jawaharlal Nehru. Especially Jinnah. The people are suffering. And the Britishers made partition in such a way that they will remain continually in war because everyone wants the necessities of life. The foodstuff is in Pakistan, and the industry is in India. So the Pakistan will suffer for want of industry, and India will suffer for want of food. This is British plan for partition. They had no business to divide the country, but they wanted to do it as a parting kick, that "You want independence. You will have independence, but you will remain perpetually in war." That was British policy. None of them are benefiting. Occasionally they are fighting and losing so much money and men, that's all, a political game. Similarly, Germany is divided. Ireland is divided. This is going on. People are fighting, fighting, fighting. Leaders should be so sober and honest that the people should live peacefully, without any anxiety, without any want. That is the duty of the leaders to see. Perpetually they are in want, in scarcity, not in peace of mind, full of anxieties. In India especially, we see, the economy is so unsteady. The money value is decreasing every day. Nobody knows what will be tomorrow. Rice is selling today at two rupees kilo, tomorrow, three rupees, next day, four rupees. Where is the income is coming? Therefore there is strike, railway strike. So this is the mismanagement. They cannot guarantee. At least in England I have seen that... Or why the England? In America also, the people are happy in this: they have got enough foodstuff, no scarcity. You see? India is in always scarcity. Goods are there. It is hoarded by somebody else. He will not let loose. He will not... Many goods are there, sufficient. The government stock. The government stock because the black marketeer, they have got some arrangement. So many things are going I don't wish to discuss. It is due to unclean politicians, unclean head of the department. Things are so mismanaged, and people are suffering. Dhanañjaya: I was reading in the newspaper that a few days ago India exploded a nuclear bomb, an atomic bomb, underground. This was the first step. And they have declared that this was used for peaceful reasons, in order to develop... Prabhupāda: There was a cartoon. When I... One leader is approached for food, that "We are in scarcity of food." The leader says, "Of course, it is very difficult to assure you for food grains. But from next week you will have television." (laughter) Next week you will have television. So these improvements are going on, television, but they are starving. This is going on. Advancement of knowledge and learning is going on in discovering television, but there is no food. This is the mismanagement of the leaders. Dishonest. There is enough food. Punjab still produces food grains. Bengal still produces rice, but they are stocked by government men, and they are mishandling. They are lying on the station for dispatch, but they will not be dispatched. They are rotting. Rainy season spoiled the whole stock; still, they are not dispatched. Official: "There is no dispatch order. There is no wagons available." Simply mismanagement or bribe. This is going on. And people are suffering. How it is possible to purchase? Suppose India's income, the average income, is very poor. Suppose one man earns ten rupees a day, and if he has to purchase ten rupees simply rice for the family, ten..., what for others? Then he becomes dishonest. He wants to earn money by taking bribe in his own capacity. So bribing has become a custom. Anywhere you go, unless you bribe, you cannot get release. And they say that "Whatever salary we are getting, that is not sufficient. Our extra earning is by taking bribe." And now in the Western countries also the difficulty is arising. I do not know whether you are already, I mean to say, aware that so many boys, they are becoming hippies. They are reluctant to do anything. That is a very dangerous sign. If you... If unemployment, no engagement, that is not good for the country. Everyone should be employed. Everyone should be engaged in some service. That should be the policy of the government. And everyone should be happy, without any anxiety. That is good government. So many people unemployed, doing nothing, producing nothing. Is it not a problem? Richard Webster: Absolutely. It's the same everywhere. Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere. Richard Webster: Except Germany, I suppose. I suppose everybody works in Germany still. *Prabhupāda: So there are so many problems. On the whole, the material world is full of problems. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā by the Supreme Being, Kṛṣṇa, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. "It is a place of miseries." You cannot make things very rightly going on. It is not possible. Therefore the best purpose will be served-leave this place, material world, and go to the spiritual world. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are advising people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and that way, he will be able to leave this place of miseries and enter the eternal life in the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, enjoy. *Prabhupāda: Whole attempt is to be out of miserable condition. Just like medicine. What is the medicine? Medicine means an attempt to get out of the miserable condition of disease. But you cannot stop disease. You may discover very improved method of medical treatment, but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. You can, I mean to say, discover many means to stop death*-that is going on-but you cannot stop death. That is not possible. So in this way... And the Bhagavad-gītā says that you might be very advanced in civilization and scientific knowledge to make improvement, the condition of life, but you cannot make solution of these things, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. Birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot counteract these things. Still you have to... Richard Webster: Do you think it's worse now than it used to be? Can you say that it is worse, the condition of the world is worse now than it used to be or is it relatively the same or...? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Worse now in these days because people cannot eat even. The facility which is given to the birds and beasts... They have no problem of eating. But you have created such a civilization that people are facing the problem so acutely that they have no means to eat. Do you think it is progress? Richard Webster: Well, I would tend to doubt it very much. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem. Richard Webster: But some things have improved. *Prabhupāda: Many countries... Especially we are Indian. We have seen in India. Nowadays there is no eatables. The government cannot supply food, failure, the problem which is not even amongst the beasts and birds. The birds and beasts, they have no such problem. They are freely living, jumping from one tree to another, because they know there is no problem of eating. And human society, there is problem of eating. What is the advancement? And there is enough place for producing food. I have seen Africa, Australia. Enough place. If the foodstuff is produced there, ten times of the population can be well fed. But they are: "Don't enter. Don't come here." The Africans will say to the Indians, "Don't come here. Go out." What is this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. We say, "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and utilize Kṛṣṇa's property." This is the best philosophy. But the so*-called politicians and leaders, they are saying "No, you cannot enter here," immigration. America has got enough place to produce food. But they will, although they have gone to the United Nation, UNESCO, they could not find out any solution. Although there is possibility of producing ten times of the requisites of the whole population of the world, they will not allow. They will not allow. On God's side, this unit, this planet, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]-everything is complete. You require water. They save three times water than the land. And the water is distributed over the land, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ so there will be sufficient food grains. And annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. And if there is sufficient to eat, have sufficient eatables to the animals and to the men, then everything is prosperous. So where is that arrangement? There is enough land, enough possibility, enough water. Now utilize them and produce food grain, eat nicely and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. Why there should be industry? You want to eat after all. Instead of eating this flesh, killing poor animals, why don't you produce food grains, fruits, flowers, food grain, and take milk from the animals and produce milk products, all nutritious food, all nice food, and be happy and remember God for His kindness. This is civilization. What is this nonsense civilization? Now there is petrol problem. I see so many buses, and not a single man, one or two men. And for two men a big huge bus is being run, and so much petrol is consumed unnecessarily. I have seen. I went from Nairobi to London in a plane-only five passengers. Out of that, four passengers we were. Why? Why this nonsense? And there is petrol problem now. They are creating simply, the so-called advancement of civilization, creating problems, that's all. And that is due to these rascal leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know what is the ideal of life, what is the aim of life. They are creating hodge-podge civilization and putting the mass of people in chaotic condition. This is the sum and substance. I do not know whether you'll agreed with me, but this is my study of the whole situation. Richard Webster: Yes, well, I can't disagree with that. *Prabhupāda: These are described in the śāstra as anartha, unwanted things, no artha. Artha means there is some meaning. But they have created a situation which has no meaning, anartha. And the medicine, remedy for anartha, is suggested also in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. Find out this verse. Yes, Bhāgavata. Just find some... This. Devotee: 1.1? Prabhupāda: Yes. The index of the First Canto, you find out this verse... Nitāi: Page 324. Dhanañjaya: What was that last sentence? Prabhupāda: In Africa and Australia, they are killing the animals and exporting. So in other countries they are getting meat to eat, and so they are very free to produce bolts and nuts by industry. They don't require to produce food because from Africa and Australia they are getting meat. This is going on. Instead of producing food, people are interested in producing motor car bolts and nuts. So why there should not be food scarcity? After all, you require to eat. But instead of starting industries, why don't you produce foodstuff? What is this civilization? Produce foodstuff. The animals will be nicely fed, and the men will be nicely fed. Richard Webster: What civilization there is comes chiefly from the television, I'm afraid. I mean the public opinion is made by the television. Atreya Ṛṣi: The television today is setting up the standard for the civilization, for today's civilization. Richard Webster: But they talk about nothing but name war (?) and... Prabhupāda: (indistinct) pictures. Richard Webster: It's much easier. They're producing more television sets (indistinct) Yogeśvara: It's a great science. My mother is an executive in a public relations firm. Her business is to show products, goods, to people that otherwise they have no need for and to convince them that there is some value. It's a very big industry, especially in the United States, public relations, advertising. It's very psychological too. They use all kinds of psychological techniques for inducing people to take things they have no need for. Prabhupāda: All right but thing is that after all our prime necessity is food. So why people are not engaged to produce food? Richard Webster: Well, in Italy they don't like to work on the land any more. They all want to live in town. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect. That is the defect. Richard Webster: Especially in Italy. Prabhupāda: You do not want to live in the village, farm. In your country I am seeing. America, the farmer's son, they are leaving. They are not coming back to the country. In India also. Atreya Ṛṣi: Cities have become centers for sense gratification. Prabhupāda: That's it. Atreya Ṛṣi: And it attracts... Richard Webster: Who? Atreya Ṛṣi: Sense gratification, sensual living. Richard Webster: Oh, sense gratification. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. So it's attracting undisciplined senses. Richard Webster: Well, I don't call it sense gratification. To me there's no gratification in city life. Atreya Ṛṣi: That's because you're wise. Prabhupāda: On the whole, as I began, that there is no guiding men. The brain is lacking. Richard Webster: Well, perhaps I should go now. I've taken too much time. Excuse me. Thank you very much and... Prabhupāda: Give him some... Give him some... Just wait. Yogeśvara: It's our custom in Vedic tradition that anyone who comes is offered graciously foodstuffs... Richard Webster: Oh, thank you, yes, I've been here quite long. Thank you. Yogeśvara: Maybe you can stay just for a moment. Richard Webster: Yes, thank you. *Prabhupāda: Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto*-bhayam. In the Vedic civilization even an enemy comes to your home, he should be offered respect. Take more. Now, these foodstuffs are meant for human being. They are not meant for cats and dogs. You should produce more of this foodstuff. And the remaining balance, the skin, you can offer to the animal. They will eat. You take the substance, and the outward, external skin you offer to the animals, and he will eat. She gives you milk. This is cooperation. You produce... Man can produce fruits and flowers, grains, take the substance, and the rejected portion give to the animal. She gives you milk. You require milk. This is cooperation. Richard Webster: Well, I do myself because we have a small garden and we grow vegetables, [break] Prabhupāda: ...will the state allow you to kill somebody and remain peacefully at home? Richard Webster: Is it wrong to kill, to eat fish? *Prabhupāda: You cannot eat anything, even grass, without the sanction of God, what to speak of fish and others. You cannot eat even a piece of grass. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ yat kiñca jagatyāṁ jagat, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. Everything belongs to God. You can simply enjoy after being sanctioned by God. Otherwise not. This is real philosophy. Everything belongs... Just like in this room, it is supposed that everything belongs to me. Even my students, they ask, "May I take this?" They have got right to take, but still, they ask. Similarly, you cannot touch anything*-everything belongs to God-without His sanction. This is God consciousness. Richard Webster: Yes, well, I wholly agree with that. Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything... Richard Webster: I entirely agree with that. Prabhupāda: ...whimsically. It is not possible. Tena eva sa ucyate. If anyone does whimsically, then he becomes immediately thief. So you are a big philosopher. Kindly you spread... Richard Webster: Very small philosopher. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Anyway, if you spread this God consciousness, this knowledge of God consciousness, philosophy of God consciousness... Richard Webster: Yes, well, I'm going to write an article on that. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Dhanañjaya: Mr. Webster has your Bhagavad*-gītā, and reads it very intently. And a few days ago he came back for another copy which he recommended to his friends. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. You kindly try to spread. Everything, whatever we speak, our philosophy, this is based on this Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. Richard Webster: It's very difficult when you're talking to Europeans. I mean... Yogeśvara: But here we're not American or European. Richard Webster: Yes, but I mean in the West it's a very different kind of difficulty... Prabhupāda: Everywhere it is difficult because people have become godless. Still, we have to try our best. The task is difficult, undoubtedly. It is very difficult task, to bring back people to God consciousness. But still we have to do it to satisfy God. He wants it. Richard Webster: Well, I'm so very glad. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Richard Webster: Hare Kṛṣṇa. I'll see you tomorrow. Yogeśvara: During your conversation with this gentleman, you mentioned that there was nowhere any sanction by God for industry or business. So does that mean that these workers in factories and industries, to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they could not go on with their work? Prabhupāda: No. Our recommendation is that whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So even the workers in the factory, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? Even in factory, they take some leisure hours. So why not sit down for five minutes, ten minutes, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? Apart from the work they are doing, we are recommending, "Whatever is done is done. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right." Where is the wrong? Yogeśvara: But eventually it's understood they must stop their industry. Prabhupāda: There is no question of stopping. If that is their livelihood, how they can stop it? That is not possible. But they can add this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting. Then things will be adjusted. It is not possible to stop different methods of livelihood. That is not possible. If one can stop, it is well and good, but even he does not stop, he can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Yogeśvara: But ultimately isn't our idea that the city complexes shouldn't remain, that things should become more spread out to farm and rural areas? *Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. If this man is fed up with this industry, he can go back to village and produce his own food. But he is attached to this industrial activity because he is thinking that "We are getting more money for wine and woman and meat. Let me enjoy." That is the perfect, imp... But if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra, his consciousness will be purified and he will be made not interested this kind of work. He will go back to village and produce food. This is French? Atreya Ṛṣi: No. It is new, 62 the new American. (BTG?) Yogeśvara: This was your idea, to put the temple buildings on the magazine. Jayādvaita wrote me about that. *Prabhupāda: Very good picture, encouraging, that so many devotees in one center. It is very much pleasing to me. I started single*-handed. Yogeśvara: 1944. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not '44, '66. '44, of course, that was idea, plans, Back to Godhead started, '44. Yogeśvara: Looks like it will be heavy competition for the next French issue. Looks like strong competition for the next French issue. Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) Very good. The pictures are very nice. Yogeśvara: That was in Watford. Prabhupāda: It is... Every time it is improving. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Yogeśvara: I think they are getting some ideas from our French magazine. (laughter) Prabhupāda: You are now born. You are not mature to take ideas from you. (laughter) (end) Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome Yogeśvara: That dharma by which the soul becomes fully satisfied, can it be found anywhere else aside from Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: I don't think. Because they are all ahaitukī; there is motive. Motive. And conditional. Therefore it is very difficult. And it is clearly said, ahaituky apratihatā. [break] Dhanañjaya: ...the founder of our International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Dhanañjaya: This is Prabhupāda's first visit to Rome, to Italy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh yes. You will stay some days here. Bhagavān: You have visited India? Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, I have been many times, yeah, in India. Bhagavān: You have been to Vṛndāvana. Cardinal Pignedoli: No, I have been to Vārāṇasī, to Calcutta, to Bombay, Agra, Darjeeling and many other places in... Nepal also. Prabhupāda: Nepal. My birthplace is in Calcutta. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, very nice. In Delhi, and Monsignor too, he has visited all the places, huh? Monsignor Verrozano: South India. Cardinal Pignedoli: In Kerala? Monsignor Verrozano: Kerala, Tirusrilapatti(?), Cochin, Madras, Bombay of course. Yes, last year I attended a kind of manifestation of your movement in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, I visited. Prabhupāda: Bombay, there was function. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: At that time, you were there? Monsignor Verrozano: In January. Dhanañjaya: At Cross Maidan. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. *Dhanañjaya: That was our festival. The Bhāgavata*-dharma discourses. Bhagavān: We had a festival program in India. We've had one in Bombay, Calcutta, Delhi, and for one week, and Srila Prabhupāda has spoken many times every night there. There's been thousands of people, ten thousand people. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, yes. And just last year about the 20th of January, it was this week of festivals also, this conscience of preaching sermons, many manifestations. Many people attended, and I too visited this, yes, also. Prabhupāda: In Calcutta also we had such functions. About thirty thousand people were coming in Bombay. Monsignor Verrozano: Could you be so kind to say to us something about your movement which is spread in the world. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that, that is first*-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat*-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles, they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me, and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, you chant always God's name on these beads. Monsignor Verrozano: This is Japan. This is from Tibet. Also a gift of Dalai Lama. Prabhupāda: Buddhism. Monsignor Verrozano: Buddhist, but this is from India. Prabhupāda: This is Hindu temple. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. The Mahakrish(?). Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, I think that because you are friends of God, we are friends of God, we are all friends and this is good. But I think that, if I understand it well, that your aim is to reach people who are unbelievers or people who are atheistic, as you said before. And then I would like to know... You are not obliged, you are completely free to do what you want. But I would like to know if you got into these places or amongst these people... There are many places and many peoples in the world who are in these conditions, without faith and without the spiritual values. Because it is for us, we hope so. We are good friends of God, and we are always in our prayers and meditation united to God, and to... But we thank you for your visit and for your, for this reason we are good friends altogether. But I would like to know historically your work, I mean if you go into these areas or into these places where is possible. For instance, take the example of Russia, eh? Now you are in good relations. India and Russia probably for Indians it is easier than for Europeans or for some of our countries or for Americans. Are you... Have you this problem? Do you go into these areas, into these places? Prabhupāda: Yes. I went to Moscow. I was invited. Cardinal Pignedoli: Because they need badly. They need this spirit of friendship with God and with His supreme values. God... Well, I wouldn't say to the Moslem world because they are good believers. And God is probably, they are more faithful to. And for instance, these areas of the modern world like, also in the States sometimes, because these big cities like New York or Tokyo or Toronto, and some, these are cities, where they are areas where spiritual values have no meaning for these people. It's a pity and we have to be very open and very friendly to them. I gather this. And your method is meditation and prayer, if I understand it well. Prabhupāda: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana, a prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma. So this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God, and Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, 'Kṛṣṇa,' O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā. I think... Māyā. So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render. Because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then you render service to māyā. Therefore it is the prayer to God that "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they sometimes say that "We are now in māyā. As soon as we are out in māyā, then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā, that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotofsky, the Indologist. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Did you talk with people there? Were you permitted, were you allowed to talk with the people in the streets and so on? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: You were. Prabhupāda: No, not on the street. Some of the boys, they came to my hotel. So so far I saw, the people, they are very nice. They are very nice, but the government supresses their sentiments. Everyone has got religious sentiments. The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; *simply it is being suppressed, either by the so*-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā. We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya. It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte. One has to be educated. And he should be given chance to hear about God. And then, as soon as he becomes purified in his consciousness, he accepts and begins to love God. So it is not an artificial thing. Either in Russia or any place, any human being, he has got dormant love for God. It has to be awakened by processes. Therefore I began: That process which quickly awakens that God consciousness and engages him in the service of the Lord, that is first-class religious system. Paro dharmaḥ. Paraḥ means first-class. But a simply sentiment will not help. Therefore religion must be based on philosophy, and my spiritual master used to say this, that "Philosophy without religion is mental speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentimental." They should be combined. Philosophy and religion must be... Or religion must be based on philosophy. Then it is perfect. We cannot separate these two things. Simple philosophical speculation will not help, and simple sentiments, rituals, formalities, will not also. They should be combined. So this combination is here in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. Monsignor Verrozano: In our Christian faith the love of God is joined with the love for man. Are you also interested with this love for man, for our rivals? *Prabhupāda: No, love for man... Let me say it. Love for man is imperfect conception because God is for everyone. God is not monopolized by simply the human society. The animal society, the bird society, the tree society, they are all living entities, soul. According to our karma, they are differently dressed. That is the most important philosophy, that soul is part and parcel of God. Somehow or other, the soul is now separated from the service of the Lord, and according to his desire of enjoying this material world, he has been offered different types of body. So either human being or animal or trees or aquatics, birds, beasts, everyone, all living entities, they are all part and parcel of God. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ. Can you find out this? Nitāi: Prabhupāda: That's it. So from God's standpoint of view, we cannot take simply that simply to serve the human being is to serve God. Another point is that living entities, the service, according to Sanskrit conception, service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior, mercy. There are two words. Sevā, the Sanskrit word, sevā, and dayā. You know something of Sanskrit? Monsignor Verrozano: Somewhat, yes. *Prabhupāda: Seva means service. So service is offered to the superior. And to the inferior or subordinate, we offer our compassion. So similarly, as we are eager to give service, similarly, we should be eager to be compassionate. So it is not very good idea. Just like in India they say, daridra*-nārāyaṇa. Some nation, that to give service to the human being, and cut the throat of the animals. This philosophy is not good. *Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. I have something in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If I am not wrong, in the Chapter Eighteen of Bhagavad-gītā, verse sixty-four, there is the affirmation that God loves man, "You are beloved for Me." And in some cases, we consider this affirmation as the very core of Indian religiosity, and we appreciate very much this affirmation of love of God for man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this... *Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. Animals cannot make [break] ...any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva*-yoniṣu... Just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is not... If actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible. Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I insist on the first question I asked for. Your aim, your most important aim, if I understood it well, is to bring the faith and love for God to man. No? This is your first aim, to encourage man to be a... Prabhupāda: Lover of God. Cardinal Pignedoli: To become lovers of God, friends to God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: All right. Do you believe, I mean now from the point of view of facts, or events, not of ideas, of events, of reality, do you think there are many these men who are without spiritual ideas in the world of today? Prabhupāda: Mostly... Cardinal Pignedoli: Mostly. You think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: And then you think that men of God are a minority. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cardinal Pignedoli: This you admit. Well, and then I ask for a second question. Before I give to you an example. I have a hobby, as many men in the world, they have their own hobbies. My hobby is to, I mean... Prabhupāda: God has also some hobby. *Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. What I used to do when I am traveling... I travel a lot. I used to make friends among young people, generally teenagers. And then I choose also*-I try to do this-people who are unbelievers, who are in difficulties, who are men of the weak faith, and who don't love, at least, they say they don't love God. Because I think that we are few men who love God, friends to God... We are not many. And we have to go and to look for these people, and for these areas or environments, where these peoples live. And it is for this reason that I say always when I am good friends, you know... Priests, Catholic priests, well, go to an area because here is too many. They don't need you here, but go to, well, I would say Stockholm or Copenhagen where there are a few really also, Christians, I mean Catholic or Protestants. We are all brothers. But they go there because there are very few people who are dedicated to God. What do you believe about this? I mean your society, your movement, your spiritual movement, is dedicated for this kind of people and for these areas, or not? I ask. It's not... Prabhupāda: For all. Cardinal Pignedoli: For all. Well, also we are for all. But I mean, you have not so many people. You have some thousand people. Do you prefer for this your people? Do you prefer they go to a place where God is not known, where spiritual values are not estimated? Or they go also to places where God is loved and God is present. Prabhupāda: No, we go everywhere. Cardinal Pignedoli: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: Just like you go in the villages of Africa. They are almost aborigines, with their... Cardinal Pignedoli: Local people. Local citizens. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process is so nice, that is recommended process in this age*-the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, we dance. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then anyone, even children, they join. Even the children, they join. Man, woman... Cardinal Pignedoli: It is very similar to the Christian masses. We bring it everywhere. *Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction. So to the mass of people, we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. But when there are learned scholars, elevated person, then we present about our philosophy. And we have got so many writings. Both ways: the mass and the class, or the scholars. We are prepared to meet everyone. Our mission is to make everyone, no distinction, that "This class should be given preference, and that should be neglected." No. We have got instrument to awaken everyone. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā*-mantra, we can enthuse thousands and thousands of men to join us. And those who are advanced in philosophy and religious system, we have got these books. So we do not neglect anyone. We approach everyone. Cardinal Pignedoli: Well, thank you for your explanations. Prabhupāda: And it is being effective. It is being effective. In our group we find Africans, Americans, Indians, Europeans, Canadians, Japanese, Chinese, everyone. Monsignor Verrozano: And what concern the Buddhist countries where God is not so, at least, the prayers or the name of God is not so well known. I am just coming from Bangkok where we had a meeting with Buddhist monks of the (indistinct), and have you also some movement, some kind of action to spread love of God to (indistinct)? Prabhupāda: Well, Buddhists, they do not believe in God. Cardinal and Monsignor Verrozano: Yes. Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, Buddhist philosophy is atheistic philosophy. Cardinal Pignedoli: Theoretically yes, but practically, do you think they are atheistic, practically? Because... Prabhupāda: No, no. Our... Yes. Theoretically atheistic, but because they believe in Lord Buddha, they are theistic. Because we accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa. Cardinal Pignedoli: Also some of them, they believe in... They think Buddha is a god, and they are believers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find? Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are, excuse it, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not (indistinct). But because we are few... I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan? Prabhupāda: Yes, we go. Cardinal Pignedoli: This is more important because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although... I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why don't you choose...? This is my question. These areas where Japan for instance is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly... It's called... No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday. Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare, is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask, then you go to Japan? Dhanañjaya: Yes, we have a center in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong. Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty*-thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went... I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical... Or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead: That is first-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first... And besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found. Find out this verse, Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Read the purport. "No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service unto Him." (*Padma Purāṇa*) Prabhupāda: So the position is, that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular... Because in truth hardly very few people understands what is God. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yeah, that's wonderful. We ought to see you in India sometimes for real again and... *Bhagavān: Do they have a copy of Bhagavad*-gītā? Dhanañjaya: I don't think you have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: What is this? Dhanañjaya: If you like, you can take this. Cardinal Pignedoli: I have, I have this. Dhanañjaya: You can have this. Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes, I have. Thank you. *Bhagavān: There are many copies of Bhagavad*-gītā, but the unusual happening with this version is until this was presented, there was no devotee... Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock has said very nicely. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, we have also many translations. Yes. Prabhupāda: You have not brought by the fruit? Nitāi: Yes, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja did. Monsignor Verrozano: We have here one translation of the commentary of Professor Zehner(?) from Oxford. Prabhupāda: Here is my foreword by Professor Dimock. Yogeśvara: This is a professor from Chicago University who wrote the foreword to this edition. He makes an interesting comment. Prabhupāda: You read, read it. Dhanañjaya: Yes. Prabhupāda: Professor Dimock's. Cardinal Pignedoli: It's very strange and famous. That's the gospel. Prabhupāda: Read it. Dhanañjaya: (reading) "Swami Bhaktivedanta comments upon the Gita from this point of view. And that is legitimate." Prabhupāda: Yes. That is legitimate. Dhanañjaya: "More than that, in this translation the Western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is a Vedic..." Cardinal Pignedoli: Yes. Prabhupāda: A Kṛṣṇa devotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa, and a nondevotee interpreting on Kṛṣṇa. There is far difference. Cardinal Pignedoli: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Prabhupāda: So mostly the editors are by nondevotee. So they cannot interpret. Monsignor Verrozano: Oh, yes. The same problem we have with our scriptures, because when the scriptures are interpreted by devotees, by believers, they are very faithful translated. Prabhupāda: That is because it is legitimate. Monsignor Verrozano: Yes, it's very important. Prabhupāda: Read it again. Cardinal Pignedoli: You are the best interpreter, yes, qualified interpreter. *Dhanañjaya: "In this translation the western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. (reads rest of foreword of MacMillan edition of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is)" This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this. Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. It will be a source also for unprofessionals, also to give true interpretation yes, by devotees. Prabhupāda: The trades manager of Messrs. MacMillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing. Monsignor Verrozano: A great sign of interest. Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and... Prabhupāda: Yes, kindly pray to God. *Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you for your kindness, for coming, and if sometimes you come to Rome, don't forget this. This is a very difficult place to find out. Now you know it. You have been here. With Monsignor Verrozano. That's nice. I will leave now for Africa, Bamako, Mali, for a meeting with Moslems. Bamako, be there for a few days, Bamako, Freetown, Bathurst, Conakry these cities of West Africa, French*-speaking Africa. Dhanañjaya: Some of our devotees are going to Lagos. Cardinal Pignedoli: Ah, Lagos. Ah yeah. You are going, also you? Dhanañjaya: No, not me. My godbrothers... Cardinal Pignedoli: I have been there for three years, in Lagos, a big city. The majority are Moslems, sixty percent. And others are Christians or local religions. They are deeply religious people in Nigeria. Deeply religious. All believers, they say. Thank you. I am so happy. (end) Morning Walk at Villa Borghese -- May 25, 1974, Rome *Prabhupāda: Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajña. So in the Kali*-yuga the yajña is made very easy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So anywhere you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and see that there will be clouds, there will be rainfall, and just work little, you get your foodgrains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: They won't like that idea. *Prabhupāda: That means their... That is their disease. The same thing, that "Why you are sitting here? Come with me, work." "What shall I do by working?" "You get money." "Then you'll enjoy." "And I am already enjoying." That the... This is called māyā. Māyā*-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. These rascals, simply for little temporary so-called benefit, they have created this working civilization, "Work very hard, very hard." That's all. Whole history... In this Rome city you can see. There are evidences. These buildings are constructed with hard labor. Now those rascals have gone, and they are maintaining, that "They worked so hard." Those who worked very hard they have gone away. Now nobody knows where they are and what they have become. But they are maintaining their bricks. That's all. Brick civilization. [break] Yogeśvara: No one goes into the park at night. Too dangerous. Prabhupāda: Just see. They have created such a civilization. Yogeśvara: The little boy of President John Kennedy was in Central Park last week, and another boy came and pushed him to the ground and stole his bicycle. The president's son. Prabhupāda: From the very beginning, stealing, and robbing. What is this picture? One horse without any... Yogeśvara: I think it is the horse of the hunter. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: They're the knights that live in the mountains here. It's called Alpina, live in the Alps. Prabhupāda: Ah. [break] ...spoken by Kṛṣṇa, Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, in the *Kṛṣṇa Book*, Kṛṣṇa Himself argues that you don't need... He argues at the time of the Indra sacrifice that you don't need yajña. The rain will come anyway. That's what they say nowadays. Prabhupāda: That was to irritate Indra. (laughter) Satsvarūpa: But they take that argument of His. Where is the proof that the rains are controlled by God? Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa says the rain will come, but Kṛṣṇa never says that without rain you can cultivate. So Kṛṣṇa's purpose was because I am the Supreme Lord, Indra will supply, his father will supply." So that is another thing. Kṛṣṇa never said that "Without rain, you can cultivate." Never said. Yogeśvara: Well, what if they argue that "Whether we perform yajña or not, these rains will go on. They are coming now and we are not performing yajña." Prabhupāda: "Because I will order. You are already performing yajña, worshiping Me, loving Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose. Tasmiṁs tuṣṭe jagat tuṣṭa. If you satisfy Kṛṣṇa, Indra's father will be satisfied. Just like if you water on the root of the tree, all the Indras, as branches and leaves and foliage, they will be satisfied. That is the purpose. Kṛṣṇa wanted to impress this that "You simply love Me, and everything will be supplied." Devotee: Why is it that the rains come in certain parts of the world and in other parts people do not have enough? *Prabhupāda: No, no part of the world is nowadays sufficient rain. Because they are not performing yajña. Sometimes it is seen that over*-rain, overflood, not systematic. But if you perform yajña, there will be systematic rainfall, which you can utilize properly. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Devotee: Kīrtanānanda Swami says that in New Vrindaban the weather is changing every year. It is getting nicer there. Much more sun and the winter is not so hard. Atreya Ṛṣi: In New Vrindaban it's getting better. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there are so many devotees. The people are still being maintained on account of our chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Devotee: By the grace of pure devotee. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...encouraging in our society to take to agriculture to support this center. I am purchasing land in Vṛndāvana and Māyāpura to become self*-sufficient. Whatever production you make, you be satisfied. Little vegetable, little grain and little milk. That is sufficient. Yogeśvara: In the Vedic culture, was the land divided, in the sense that some people would receive land free or...? Bhagavān: This is nice here, this ground. Yogeśvara: The land in the Vedic culture, some of it was...? Prabhupāda: Land belongs to the king, and you take land for cultivation, and you pay 25% tax to the king. That's all. All taxes. If you don't produce, then don't pay tax. Yogeśvara: Oh, it wasn't forced that you had to pay so much. Prabhupāda: No. Atreya Ṛṣi: You pay 25% of what you have produced. *Prabhupāda: What you have produced, that's all. Very simple thing. Everyone was engaged producing. There was no necessity. And here the rascals are advising, produce bolts and nuts, tire, and drill petrol. They are not producing food. And the so*-called government men, they are levying taxes, and they are enjoying. They haven't got to produce food. They are killing animals, eating, and digesting with wine. And then woman. That's all. This is their business. And food price is increasing daily. They don't mind because they will print paper, and to the supplier they will give paper. That's all. Bhagavān: Print more paper. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. This is the civilization, cheating, bluffing. That's all. They don't care for the citizens. And as soon as there is some agitation, they declare war, so that they can be engaged, attention is diverted. This is going on. Bhagavān: Now with paper money, any country can print any other country's money. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore inflation. Suppose I am an enemy. I print dollars like that, and distribute. So the inflation is there. And the price is increased. If you get money for nothing, you will be prepared to pay anything. Suppose there is one mound of rice. I have got these printed notes. You are offering ten rupees. I will say twenty rupees. Atreya Ṛṣi: That's inflation. Prabhupāda: That's all. Because I did not earn this money, I have printed. I am prepared to twenty rupees. So he says, "Why shall I pay ten rupees? I must wait for the customer, for twenty rupees, and hoard it." Even there is sufficient stock, he will not sell. Therefore the other man, who is honest, he is suffering. This is going on. So to stop this inflation, the government must stop this paper currency. Then the inflation... There will be no more inflation. But that they will not do. They want to cheat people. "In God I trust. Take this paper and you be satisfied that you have got thousand dollars." That's all. This cheating is going on. Why should you pay me paper? Give me real dollar, in gold. That they have none. They haven't got. That's all. They will employ laborers and cheat them by paying these papers, and this rascal will think that "I am getting more money." That's all. Since this world has taken this paper currency, the situation has degraded. Formerly there was barter exchange. That was very good thing. Still in Indian villages, the remote villages, there is barter. Yes. He has produced some grains, paddy. He will bring to the storekeeper. And the storekeeper will take, "For so much oil, you have to give me so much paddy." So he will weigh and keep it and give him oil. So he will arrange to sell the paddy. But for the villagers, he brings the paddy and he takes. They require little salt, little oil, some spices. That's all. Otherwise they have got their own thing. They have got dahl, their rice, wheat, everything. They have produced. In this way, still there are, Indian villages. There is no question of scarcity. Bhagavān: The easiest way to manage, then, is to have everything more or less in small villages. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that was Gandhi's philosophy, village organization. These people, they are attracting villagers to work in the factory, and they are exploiting them. Instead of producing food, they are attracted by so*-called high salaries, to the factory, and they are producing bolts and nuts, motor parts. But food is produced somewhere else. But the food producers, they are working in the factory. Therefore scarcity of foodstuff. But this factory owner, he has got more money. He doesn't care. The poor public, they are suffering. Our philosophy is that you produce your food anywhere. You stay, and keep cows, take milk, produce vegetables, food grains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is our philosophy. Make your life successful. By becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become free from all these troubles of material condition. This is our education. Don't be after these motorcars, television, and all nonsense things, sporting, wine, women. Don't be after these. Simply eat sufficiently, keep your health nicely, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, realize Kṛṣṇa, and go back to home. This is our philosophy. Satsvarūpa: But sometimes, because this materialistic society is so far advanced, you say we cannot actually hope to change it. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is a fact. We cannot hope to change. But we request everyone to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: In their factory or wherever they are. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is very difficult to close the factory. That is not possible. So whatever you have done, it is all right. But you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then things will be adjusted. We are giving chance to everyone, who is degraded or who is not degraded, by the simple method of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We do not neglect anyone. We do not say, "You are neglected. We don't accept you." No. I accept you and I accept others. What is this? Cemetery? No. It is also part of this park? [break] Bhagavān: ...people tolerate such obvious mismanagement. *Prabhupāda: As long as they will not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have to tolerate. They must suffer. That is nature's law. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā... [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot escape all these miserable conditions of... Mām eva ye prapadyante. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you escape. What is difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Simply always think of Me." We have got nice Kṛṣṇa. And attend the temple, and we see. And what is the difficulty to think of Him always? Or chanting, hearing His name. So there is no difficulty in remembering Kṛṣṇa always. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. To become devotee, worship the Lord in the temple, prepare food for Him, and take the prasādam-where is the difficulty? The program which we have introduced, where is the difficulty there? But the rascals will not take. That is the difficulty. They will become hippies, but they will not become devotees. Although a better position. This is their misfortune. Duṣkṛtina, misfortune. In spite of the things being so easy to perform, they will not take to it, on account of misfortune. Duṣkṛtina. Because they have committed so many sinful activities, it is difficult to accept this. Otherwise, the thing which we are presenting is very easy to be accepted by anyone, even by a child. And actually we see. The children, they are also dancing, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and very happy. In Dallas. In all schools the children are unhappy, their face. And we see in Dallas, all children, they are so happy. The teacher is happy. The student is happy there. Have you not marked the face in the picture, how they are happy. Did you mark it? Devotee: Yes. Bhagavān: To accept our way, though, they think "That means I have been totally wrong." And they have so much pride that they don't want to change it. *Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). A mūrkha, a rascal, when he is given good advice, he becomes angry. He becomes angry. He does not take for solution of the problem, but he becomes angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. Payaḥ*-pānaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (?). Because they are miscreants, like snakes, if you give him milk, his poison will increase. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujaṅganaṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. Yogeśvara: When I was at the university, there were two kinds of strikes. One was by the students and the other one was by the professors. Prabhupāda: (laughing) And what about the clerks? They also strike sometimes. Yogeśvara: They took advantage of the two. *Prabhupāda: Everyone dissatisfied*-that's a fact. This is a bad civilization. Yogeśvara: Jyotirmayī is giving a course in Paris at one university, and there we can't always have our classes. We are scheduled every week, but we've only had two or three. The whole rest of the time the university has been closed because the students were striking. Practically the whole year. Bhagavān: (car screeches as passing by) So fast and they go nowhere. *Prabhupāda: He is proud that "How fast I can drive!" Just see. And where you are going? "I am going to hell, that's all. Never mind." That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā Just like the flies. They are coming very forcefully. Where? In the fire. Pat! Pa! Pa! Pa! Pa!" They are very busy. And as soon as on the fire, finished. Just see. Very busy. Without inquiring, "Where I am going so forcefully?" But they are going to the fire. Satsvarūpa: We should go on the walk. The cars are coming on the road. Prabhupāda: So we shall walk? [break] ...containing three passengers, wasting petrol. Similarly, hundreds and thousands and millions of cars and buses are running all over the world, simply wasting petrol. Bhagavān: When there was the oil crisis in the United States, they were giving reports how some person would go in his car, go ten miles in a big car to buy one pack of cigarettes. Prabhupāda: Stick to your own place and grow your food. There is no question of transport. Little transport is required, that bullock cart. Kṛṣṇa was being carried on bullock cart. There is no use of petrol. Use simply the bull. They are already there. Utilize them. No. The bull should be sent to the slaughterhouse. Petrol should be used. Atreya Ṛṣi: They try to solve every problem by transportation, by airplanes, cars. For example, we had this big conference in Montreal. From all over the world came... (end) Morning Walk at Villa Borghese -- May 26, 1974, Rome Prabhupāda: Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajña. [break] Bhagavān: ISKCON has a camera. Yogeśvara: Should we take a picture right here? [break] Prabhupāda: ...philosophy and the so many bogus swamis' philosophies, they are different. They offer some material benefit by their philosophy. "If you take this mantra, then your material life will be easier." People are captivated for material benefit. Spiritual benefit, they do not understand, and neither our philosophy provides any facility for material benefit. Although spiritual benefit includes material benefit, but people do not understand this. Bhagavān: It appears that by taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one becomes less materially benefitted. *Prabhupāda: That is the benefit they do not understand. Here the philosophy is to make nil material benefit. And that is sometimes havoc for others. Niṣkiñcanasya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... (aside:) Don't bring near. Niṣkiñcanasya. Niṣkiñcana means... Kiñcana means something and niṣkiñcana means even no something. Kiñcana means something, to possess something, and niṣkiñcana means to possess nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad*-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana... So go back to home back to Godhead, is meant for such persons who has nothing to possess here. That is very difficult. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. The real aim, real benefit, is how to be transferred to the other nature, spiritual nature. Pāraṁ param. They do not know that beyond the sky, there is spiritual sky, there is another nature. They have no information. Even they do not know what are there in higher planetary systems. They think, "Here everything is..." This is an insignificant planet in the whole creation, but their fund of knowledge so poor, they think this is the position. They are trying to maintain what was achieved. Dhanañjaya: We can go down. We can go around. Bhagavān: The stones seem very rough. Maybe we go back this way. Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Yogeśvara: There are stones on the ground, too. Bhagavān: A little material benefit, that increase, they take to be spiritual. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gymnastic. Just like a man, by bodily exercise, he becomes a little strong. His digestive function becomes very easy, he can eat more. He can enjoy more sex life. These benefits they want. And if you promise all these benefits, they become attracted. And they cannot understand, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. After giving up this body, we do not accept anymore material body, but go to back to home, back to... These things they cannot understand. Yogeśvara: Can we take a picture right here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: It is beyond their understanding. Bhagavān: We are the only ones who are preaching like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual benefits, they do not understand. What is this building? This is also old construction? Bhagavān: It's a church. (asking someone:) Is that from the Roman empire? [break] Prabhupāda: ...in right position. All wonderful buildings, there is no doubt. Such huge buildings in any other parts of the world is not visible. Just the thickness of the building. Bhagavān: They kept many slaves the Romans. They had many slaves. Prabhupāda: Yes. Slaves? This word is used in Vedic language also, slave. The Africans, they were meant for becoming slaves. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can we take a picture here please? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. So the Kirātas, they were always slaves of the Āryans. The Āryan people used to keep slaves, but they were treating slaves very nicely. Later on it degraded. Otherwise, slaves were kept just like family members. Bhagavān: They had no resentment. Prabhupāda: No, they were very happy. Just like you keep a dog. It is slave but it is very happy under the protection of good master. Bhagavān: Actually, they like to work hard. Prabhupāda: Yes, they like to work hard and they want good protection. That is their happiness. Even still in Africa, the servants, domestic servants, Africans, I have seen in Indian family, they are very happy. They are very happy, and the master also takes care of them. They want to eat sumptuously, and that's all. They have no other ambition. They don't want any motorcar or like this, no. And they work very nicely, domestic work, very clean. But sometimes they steal. That is their habit. My father used to say, "If you do not allow the servants to steal, so don't keep." Don't keep servants. "A servant who does not steal, he is not a gentleman. He must steal." Bhagavān: He must steal. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their satisfaction. So you must allow them. In old zamindar family, they will pay the manager five rupees per month, salary, and allow them to steal. That was simply a token salary that "You are servant." And the manager was so clever, he would steal, but he would not spoil the property of the master. He will manage very nicely that he will extra, make extra income and steal. The master will not be touched. Master will be happy. Master knows that "I am paying him five rupees. That is nothing." And he is constructing big building, getting his sons and daughters married very luxuriantly. Master is... Even fifty years before, there was a zamindar, Raja Manindra Candranandi. He was very magnanimous man, making various charities. So if somebody will complain, "Sir, your this servant is stealing like this," he would be very angry. The man who complains, he will be angry upon him, "Why do you come and complain?" He will not accept any complaint. Rather, he will be angry with the man who complains. Yogeśvara: May we have one more picture, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. What are the history of these buildings? Bhagavān: These were temples here, demigod temples. Prabhupāda: This style of building, arch, is seen in New Delhi also, constructed by the Moguls. This was also a temple? Bhagavān: No. This was an arena where they used to watch wrestling, fighting. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...devotees, they do not want any opulence of this material world. They are, what is called, pessimistic. They do not give any value to the opulence of this material world. And it is very good philosophy. But fools and rascals, they are attracted. Now, these buildings were constructed, very highly intellectual men undoubtedly, but they enjoyed, say, for hundred years. That's all. Then their bodies changed, and nobody knows what kind of body he has got. This is materialism. Suppose if you are offered some very nice comfortable life, and if you know that "Next life I am going to become a dog," would you be happy? But they have no information that what next body... Body, he has to take another body. He cannot enjoy. Whatever he has created, he cannot enjoy for good. That is not possible. He has to leave it. Just like these Romans. They have left. They constructed so big, big building just to enjoy, but they had to leave it by nature's force and accept another body. That they do not know. They are satisfied, "Never mind, I accept the next life a dog's body. Now let me enjoy this, say, twenty*-five years or fifty years, that's all." This is their philosophy. No future. "Trust no future, however pleasant." In India, those who are interested in spiritual life, they take sannyāsa. Everybody sannyāsa, bābājī. Rūpa Gosvāmī gave up his service, everything, and became no possessions voluntarily. Big, big kings, Bharata Mahārāja... To practice that "I have no more interest in anything material." [break] ...introduction of my Guru Mahārāja that sannyāsīs and preachers may use big, big buildings, motorcars and..., just to give the information to the western world. Because they, if you ask them, that "You become a mendicant, possessionless," still, they are not very much interested. Because they see our dress, our living condition is not very equal to their standard, they do not like. Is it not? Yes. So just to give these Westerners facilities at least to understand this philosophy, this method was accepted by Guru Mahārāja, to live in nice building, to have cars, to use everything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, nobody would take. Bhagavān: It was revolutionary. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tyāga*-bhūmikā, renouncement. The platform of renouncement. So how this was broken, by war fights or what? Huh? Last war? Devotee: Yes. The bombs? Bhagavān: These are all holes. Prabhupāda: Just see, in humanity. The historical buildings, what is there? They destroy them. This building, I think it was constructed later. Bhagavān: Yeah, this is new building. [break] Devotee: ...couldn't understand how they put the buildings together, how they stayed so long, what they used to make it stay together. Yogeśvara: Yesterday Dhanañjaya said the Coliseum was made of marble. Devotee: It is the same earth, but they make it... Bhagavān: Plaster it? Devotee: Yeah. To be stronger. Bhagavān: Special earth. Devotee: (indistinct) [break] Bhagavān: ...spiritual culture, they cannot even enjoy materially very nicely. Prabhupāda: No. Devotee: This (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many buildings we see the frog (?)... (end) Morning Walk -- May 27, 1974, Rome Prabhupāda: So we can discuss some of the problems, about the problems. Discuss what are the problems. Bhagavān: Now? We shall discuss now? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are going to solve all problems. Let us have some preliminary discussion, how we are going to solve. Bhagavān: The biggest problem now is that they have built up a type of society in which their needs are all coming from petrol energy. To produce what they need today is all coming from this petrol energy... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Bhagavān: ...which they are importing basically from the Saudi Arabian countries. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Now, recently, in the last war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabians raised the price of the oil over double now, I think, as a pressure to the western countries to do things in their favor. Now they realized that the market for oil is in such great demand that they don't have to lower the price after the war, but they are going to keep the price. And actually the price is still increasing. So this is causing inflation. Prabhupāda: So this problem will be solved as soon as we are localized. Petrol is required for transport, but if you are localized, there is no question of transport. You don't require petrol. Suppose in New Vrindaban, we stay, we don't go anywhere. Then where is the need of petrol? Bhagavān: Petrol they also use for heating. And electricity. Prabhupāda: No, heating. Heating we can do by wood. By nature. Dhanañjaya: I remember, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that all we require is some oxen, and the oxen can carry. Prabhupāda: Yes. The oxen will solve the problem of transport. That bullock cart. Just like Kṛṣṇa, when He was transferred from Gokula to Nandagrāma, so they took all the bullock carts, and within a few hours they transported them, the whole thing, their luggage, family member, everything. Bhagavān: How far can a bullock cart travel in one day? Prabhupāda: At least ten miles, very easily, very easily. And maximum he can travel fifteen miles, twenty miles. But when we are localized, we don't require to go beyond ten miles, five miles. Because we have created a rubbish civilization, therefore one is required to go fifty miles for earning bread, hundred miles, hanging. Dhanañjaya: Like in Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Why Los Angeles? Everywhere. In New York they are coming from hundred miles. From the other side of the island. First ferry steamer, then bus, then so on, so on. Three hours, four hours, they spend for transport. Satsvarūpa: Is this an ideal solution or a practical one? Prabhupāda: This is practical. Satsvarūpa: Because sometimes we say that actually we cannot change the course of the... Prabhupāda: No, no. Our society will be ideal by practical application. Satsvarūpa: If we stopped all the transportation industry, there would be huge unemployment. It would be a great... Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not going to stop employment. We live like this. You see. If you like, you live like us. Bhagavān: Example. Prabhupāda: Example. Satsvarūpa: Not that we dictate to the... Not that we are going to force everyone. Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to force anyone. "Our mode of living is like this. If you like you can adopt." Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that "You also, you must chant." No. We live like this. Dhanañjaya: So in fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we should start using bullock carts. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, first of all you start the community project, as we have already started in New Vrindaban. Make this perfect. Devotee: There was a big meeting of scientists in Stockholm, Sweden, and they talked that if humanity don't begin to live in a localized way like you say, in fifty years will be no more source of production. Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. We can produce from anywhere, foodstuff. Bhagavān: What about the question of using petrol for heat? Another import, there is three uses of petrol, or four. One is the transportation, one is heat, another is electricity, and a fourth is they use it to manufacture so many products. So what if someone asks... Prabhupāda: No, you go on products, with your product. You have created problem, you go on with your problem. But we live like this. If you like, you can adopt. Bhagavān: What is our solution to heat? Wood? Prabhupāda: Heat? Yes, wood. Sufficient. Dhanañjaya: But they are saying they used all the wood for paper, so there's no more wood. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Paper you can make from grass, from cotton. So many other fibers. You don't require wood. You grow grass, sufficient quantity, and you make paper. Why should you publish so many rubbish literatures? Just like you were telling. The Times of India, the newspaper. (Sound of cars) This is the difficulty, walking on street. Therefore I wanted to go to the park. This is disturbance. So paper, if we don't produce unnecessary paper, there is no scarcity. From grass. You produce grass, huge quantity of grass, you will get paper. Cotton also. First*-class paper. In India also, the rejected paper. From rejected paper you can get another paper also. But they throw it away in your country. Collect this rejected paper and again put it into paper. And why should you publish all rubbish literature? Simply publish Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, that's all. What is the use of this newspaper, nonsense newspaper, huge, huge quantity? So everything will be nice provided you become ideal. Live in community. Produce your own food. Even you can produce your own paper. You don't require printing of so many books. If there is one book, others can imitate, or copy. There is no need of printing. Formerly they used to do that. Here is the... Bhagavān: Do you want to go in the park? (a lot of noise from cars) Prabhupāda: Now? Bhagavān: I didn't understand that about one book. Prabhupāda: One book... Suppose we have prepared some small quantity of paper. So you can, if you want that book, you just copy another book. Bhagavān: By hand. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no need of printing books. Bhagavān: Some people would be engaged in copying books. *Prabhupāda: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy. That's all. Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty*-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Kṛṣṇa is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Kṛṣṇa, Therefore they go to the dog's pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That's all. They have been educated like dogs. Therefore they want it. Bhagavān: There is one United Nations report that very soon venereal disease will reach epidemic proportions all over the world. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already. Some fifty years ago. You know that Dr. Ghosh? Bhagavān: Yes. *Prabhupāda: He told me that when he was student, so one professor, Colonel Megar, he described in the classroom-he is Englishman*-that "In our country, 75% of the students, they are infected with venereal disease." So Dr. Ghosh as a student, "Oh, it is horrible." So he replied, "Why do you say, 'Horrible'? It is disease. In your country, 90% people are infected with malarial disease. So as a medical practitioner, you should not say that this disease is horrible; that disease is very nice. You cannot say that." That was between them. So this venereal disease, fifty years ago we heard that 75% of students are infected. Now they are advanced; cent percent must be. *Yogeśvara: There was a report in the New York Times that last year alone in the United States there were over 300,000 abortions, and more than two*-thirds were performed on girls under twenty years of age. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is civilization. Poor girls, they are victims. These rascals are enjoying without any responsibility of marriage. And sex impulse is very strong between thirteen years up to thirty years. So people take advantage of it, and the poor girls become victim. So many anomalies. This is a doggish, demonic civilization. This is not civilization at all. They are not interested. They do not know what is the aim of life. First mistake is that "I am this body." This is doggish. Just like the dog is barking. He is thinking, "I am a big dog here. Don't come." Similarly, if a man thinks, "I am a big American, I am great Englishman," then what is the difference? The dog is also thinking like that. And Vedic civilization says, "No, you are neither dog nor human being." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." This is Vedic civilization. One is being trained up to understand this philosophy, that "I do not belong to this, any material condition. I am Brahman part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Where is that conception? Bhagavān: Now they have... the other day in the paper that India exploded its first atomic bomb. Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore yet it has become very great. Yogeśvara: Now its in the top six. Prabhupāda: But there is no food. Never mind, you starve, but get your atom bomb. That's all. This is civilization. There was a cartoon. Somebody approached some politician, and he said, "Yes, I know there is food problem. So I cannot say what can I do for you, but from next week, you will have television." This is their program, "From next week you will have television." As if television will minimize my hunger. This is the civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you ask problem, I will answer. Your energy, problems of energy, petrol, it will be automatically solved. If we are localized, there is no question of petrol. *Bhagavān: You say in the, I think it's in the Second Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, that by doing so much drilling into the earth, they actually disturbed the rotation of the earth. Prabhupāda: Yes, we can think like that. Just like the plane, aeroplane, is flying. There is sufficient petrol stock. Is it not? So the world has got sufficient petrol stock. If you do not know how it is being used, maybe due to this petrol, it is floating. And if you take away the petrol stock, it may drop. Everything is there. There is a purpose. Pūrṇam idam [*Īśopaniṣad*, Invocation]. There is full purpose. Not that whimsically petrol is there within the earth. There is some purpose. Devotee: What they do, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is take the petrol out and put salt water, because they know there can be a imbalance. And then they put salt water in the holes. Prabhupāda: But water cannot produce gas. Petrol produces gas. Maybe due to that gas, it is floating. Because we have got practical experience. When there is gas, you can float anything. Dhanañjaya: Like a balloon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: There is another big problem that now all the opposing countries have built up excess amounts of atomic weapons all pointed at each other. So now they are trying to have big planning conference how to diminish all these weapons. *Prabhupāda: If there is no opposite elements, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā: [Bg. 18.54] "As soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become jubilant." So where is your enemy? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then where is your enemy? Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days. So many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any (indistinct), very quickly this Communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight, like cats and dogs. "Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood." So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is "You come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest." Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam: "Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest." And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept here. (loud truck noise) Bhagavān: Prabhupāda, I think we better go somewhere else. There is too many cars here. Prabhupāda: Yes, this isn't a place for walking. [break] Yogeśvara: ...all the major nations of the world have... These atomic weapons constitute very great storehouses for them. So what should they do with all of these things. Prabhupāda: They should throw. I throw upon you, you throw upon me. You go to hell, I go to hell. That's all. This will be the result. And the world will be cleansed of these all rascals. This will be the result. (laughs) Bhagavān: In the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*, you say that even the atomic bombs can be used in Kṛṣṇa's service. Prabhupāda: It will be used by nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. He is thinking that "I am proprietor of this atomic bomb," but he does not know that the other's atomic bomb will kill me, and my atomic bomb, I kill him. That's all. He does not know that. He is thinking, "I am very proud of possessing." But that will be the cause of his death. Yogeśvara: Is such an atomic war foretold in SB.. Prabhupāda: Yes. Next war means atomic war. All these rascals will be killed automatically. I will kill you, you'll kill me. That's all. Yogeśvara: Is that war to occur in the recent future? Or is that a long way off? Prabhupāda: Very recent, very recent future. This Communist and Capitalist mentality will bring the next... The Communists will be victorious. Dhanañjaya: And after the war what will be the result? *Prabhupāda: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem... Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Kṛṣṇa the leader, then the Communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God the supreme dictator, then every*-thing is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self dependent, no use... And we don't require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere. Bhagavān: We can make our own cloth? Khādi. Prabhupāda: Yes, cotton. From cotton you can make your own cloth. Dhanañjaya: My wife knows how to spin cloth. Prabhupāda: Yes. By spinning thread, then you make cloth. Without any price. You grow your cotton and have your cloth. So by machine, they have created so many idle brain, and therefore hippies are coming out, problem. This is the result of this. Because they have created this machine, not everyone is employed, so he must become a hippie. Idle brain is a devil's workshop. Bhagavān: Even the older generation, even the fathers, they are becoming... Prabhupāda: Anyone who hasn't got sufficient to work, to be employed or engaged, then he must become hippie, vagabond. What is this? Temple? Dhanañjaya: This is Mary, the... Yogeśvara: The Virgin Mary. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like India. They also make some small temple like this. Yogeśvara: Mahatma Gandhi formulated many such programs for producing khādi, for cow protection and so on. Prabhupāda: No, he did not make any cow protection. Yogeśvara: No? We know from your teachings that he was missing the point. Prabhupāda: Missing... The point is God. He was atheist. He did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: But from the level of application of his programs, is there some value? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good program, to produce your own necessities of life. That is good idea. But he could not turn the people, because they are godless. Godless man cannot have any good qualification. I requested him to become God conscious and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He thought it ludicrous. Yes. He was such a godless man. Yogeśvara: All Indians worship Gandhi. Prabhupāda: Then how he was killed? That is the proof. Otherwise, how was he killed? Yogeśvara: Every place we go, we see Indian's homes, pictures of Gandhi on their tables. Prabhupāda: You, you have not visited everyone's house here. The three, four house you have visited. That's all. Bhagavān: You haven't even been to India. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Don't talk all this nonsense. Bhagavān: We can keep horses? We can use horses? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is kṣatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The śūdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The śūdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is śūdra mentality. Bhagavān: So they have to be kept employed. Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be... They should not possess, so that they will work always. Yogeśvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted. Prabhupāda: No, workers, what is that? Exploited? Yogeśvara: Yes, when the śūdras were seeing that, "Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food," then they revolted. Prabhupāda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and you are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now... Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily. Bhagavān: They like to work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: It's not that people like to be idle. Prabhupāda: I have seen. And the Dai Nippon directors, they live very poorly, but still, they do not like to give up the service because they are assured of their family, protection, medicine, food, education. They did not like. Never mind, it is not very luxurious. Still, they stick. That I have seen. Yogeśvara: Because there are good benefits. Prabhupāda: Good benefits, yes. If you are assured of your food, shelter, and necessities of life, then you will never grudge. That was the system. Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists... Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow. You cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else? Bhagavān: That's not good? Prabhupāda: That's not good. Bhagavān: So in our community, when we grow things, or we have need of someone's services, how are these services distributed equally? Let's say we grow cauliflower, we grow peas, we grow wheat. Is it that each family must be responsible and take only what he needs? How is it distributed? Prabhupāda: No, no. These varieties... Suppose you grow half a dozen different types of vegetables. So from this half a dozen you can make three dozen varieties. If you are a good cooker. So the varieties of enjoyment will be fulfilled. We have got some desire of different quality of varieties. That you can make. From milk, vegetable, grains, the three things, you can make three hundred varieties. Bhagavān: But my question is, if the community produces... Some class of men produce vegetables and grains, some class produce cows, some class produce clothes, some class produce necessities for building. How are these things distributed equally? Prabhupāda: Because we are community, we shall distribute whatever necessity for everyone. Bhagavān: They will come and say, "I need this much cloth, I need this much milk." Prabhupāda: No, this much cloth... But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you will be satisfied with the minimum necessities of life. That is natural. You won't demand. Yogeśvara: So actually such a program can only be successful proportionately with the rise of Kṛṣṇa consciousness of the people. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main basic principle. Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, if you arrange like this, that will never be successful. Yogeśvara: They won't be satisfied. Prabhupāda: No. Bhagavān: The kṣatriyas make sure that people are correct, acting correctly, that no one is taking more than what they need? Prabhupāda: Naturally he will do. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, if he attends the Kṛṣṇa conscious program, naturally he will do. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi. That is the progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He will be satisfied in any condition of life. That is progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He doesn't require anything artificially. His main necessity is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if his attention is diverted in that way, these things will be not important. Yogeśvara: So then we should begin our rural communities like New Vrindaban, and then by training up people in the cities, we can send them gradually... Prabhupāda: There will be no city. We don't want cities. Bhagavān: What about our city temples? Prabhupāda: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there will be no necessity. City means... For the present we have got. Because the city is there, we are there. But suppose the city is closed. We shall be there? If the city is closed, you still will be there? Yogeśvara: But we can predict that the cities will go on for quite some time. Prabhupāda: Yes, it will go on, but when they will see that your ideal community is better than city life, people will take to it. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. When one gets a better standard of life, naturally he will give up the lower standard of life. Dhanañjaya: But won't the countryside be spoiled if there is an atomic war? Prabhupāda: Yes. The what is called...? Dhanañjaya: Radioactivity. Prabhupāda: By atomic bomb... What is that? The... It says in your country, that you divide the city. I just forget. Yogeśvara: The result of the bomb? Prabhupāda: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village. Bhagavān: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities where the industry is. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yogeśvara: The targets will be the cities. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used at the villages. Downtown, downtown. (laughter) The downtown will be first finished. I have got experience during the last war. The bombs were being thrown in Calcutta and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown. Bhagavān: They know they don't want to bomb the countryside or else how can they live? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: The overpopulation is in the city. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: They think that overpopulation occurs in underdeveloped countries, but actually in every city it is overpopulation, people living on top of each other like rats. Prabhupāda: (loud noises) These are subway trains? Dhanañjaya: No, these are ordinary trains. Prabhupāda: So all your problems solved? Bhagavān: No, not yet. Prabhupāda: Put problems. I'll solve. Yogeśvara: Here's a problem. The women today want the same rights as men. How can they be satisfied? Prabhupāda: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are working. They don't want equal rights with men. It is due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking very nicely. They are satisfied. They never say that "I have to go to Japan for preaching like Prabhupāda." They never say. This is artificial. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women, men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no artificial (indistinct) (loud traffic noises) Bhagavān: They say that our women are unintelligent because they submit so easily, but... Prabhupāda: Subway? Dhanañjaya: No. This is also public transport, other trains. Bhagavān: But actually, our women are so qualified in so many ways, but these girls who simply work in the city can do nothing. They can't cook, they can't clean, they can't sew. Prabhupāda: All rubbish, these modern girls, they are all rubbish. Therefore they are simply used for sex satisfaction. Topless, bottomless... (end) Morning Walk -- May 28, 1974, Rome Dhanañjaya: In Greenland? Prabhupāda: Others cannot live locally. Satsvarūpa: That's not their karma? Prabhupāda: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally? Satsvarūpa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won't know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow. Prabhupāda: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective. Dhanañjaya: But people say they travel for education. Prabhupāda: What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education. Now, you have seen in Harmonist that the school children, they are having sex intercourse publicly, and they are running naked in America. Is it not? Satsvarūpa: Yes It's a very big thing now, running naked. Dhanañjaya: It's called "streaking." *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the nonsense education, result is like that. Is that education? I first, when I saw in Honolulu University*-all hippies, all the students, half naked and niggardly dressed. Why so many? They are all students. You see? It has become a fashion. This is the education. And one commissioner has... You have not seen our Harmonist prepared. Collapse. Satsvarūpa: I saw it yesterday. The president of Temple University, he said this was good, this running naked. Prabhupāda: And another has that "education has collapsed." Dhanañjaya: They have lost all sense of moral values. Prabhupāda: Animals. The whole material civilization is based on animalism. Therefore now they are coming as naked animals. The basic principle of the civilization is animalism. Now... It was covered by the progress of time. Now they are coming to be naked animals, that's all. Yogeśvara: So this is another problem for Bhagavān's book. *Prabhupāda: No, no. That... You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, "Yes, here is life." As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self*-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required. Yogeśvara: Before he left, Bhagavān left me a list of questions. May I ask you some? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons. *Prabhupāda: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity*-he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement. The animals. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal. "I am this body." Body means the senses. "And to satisfy the senses is the highest perfection." This is their civilization. So you have to introduce real human civilization. You should not be surprised, an animal, in different shapes, in different capacity, comes out. After all, he is an animal. The basic principle is animalism. Because he is thinking, "I am this body..." As the dog is thinking, "I am dog, very stout and strong dog," so another man is thinking, "I am big nation." But what is the basic principle? A dog is also thinking on the basis of his body, and this big nation is also thinking on the basis of body. So there is no difference between this dog and this big nation. The only difference is that human being, by nature's gift, he got better senses. So... And he has no power, or there is no education to utilize the better senses, how to advance spiritually and get out of this material world. That he has no sense. He is simply using that better intelligence for animalism. This is the meaning. He has no education how to utilize the better intelligence. Therefore he is utilizing only in animalism. And people all over the world, when they see the westerners, "They are advanced." What is that? Advancing in animalism. Basic principle remains the animalism. They become surprised. They also imitate. So they are expanding animalism, animal civilization. Now we have to counteract for the benefit of the human civilization. Satsvarūpa: They are so ignorant that... Prabhupāda: An animal is always ignorant. Satsvarūpa: When we stress on this point, they become very shocked that we talk like this. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na...(?) Satsvarūpa: "You are calling us animals?" Prabhupāda: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale that's all." So these rascal, actually, they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, advance. This is advancement, that "We have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden, now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization. Yogeśvara: So many social reformers will agree with you... *Prabhupāda: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on. Where is the human being? Dhanañjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God*-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog? Dhanañjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog. Prabhupāda: That's all. So we say another dog is running in a different way. That's all. These are very strong words. People will be angry. But this is a fact. Yogeśvara: So here's a practical problem. People would be interested to know our position on divorce. Here in Rome they just passed a divorce law. Prabhupāda: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, That's all. Yogeśvara: But people are objecting that: If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other." *Prabhupāda: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacārī, naiṣṭhika*-brahmacārī, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection. Yogeśvara: But that's not possible for the mass of people. *Prabhupāda: No, why not possible? We have got so many, just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. He remained completely brahmacārī, although naked he is. He is. He doesn't require, and neither he is agitated. Just like when he was passing, the girls were taking bath. They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyāsadeva, a personality like Vyāsadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahaṁsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are gṛhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyāsī. What is sannyāsī? Vānaprastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī-no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacārī has no sex life, the vānaprastha has no sex life, the sannyāsī has no sex life. Only the gṛhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed*-it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham [SB 7.9.45]. The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands. That's all. That means the itching disease is increased. This has been the description of sex life. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Although behind the sex life there are so many troubles, but still the rascals do not cease. Either illicit sex or legal sex... Legal sex you beget children. There are so many troubles. You have to raise them nicely, you have to give them education, you must be situated nicely. That is the duty of father. Otherwise, he would go on, begetting like cats and dogs, no responsibility. Just like some of our students, immediately married and again, "Give me sannyāsa." What is this? Irresponsible, that's all. Irresponsibility. So these things are not required at all. These things are not required. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. After marrying they see it is very great responsibility. "Now let me take sannyāsa." That's all. Why you marry? Because he finds that after marriage there are so many difficulties. So irresponsible man. So after there is difficulties; that's a fact. So why should you go to the difficulty? Therefore the conclusion is the married life is not required. But if you cannot tolerate, all right, get this concession, live very gentlemanly. This is marriage. Otherwise for higher sense, higher elevation... High elevation, of course, one who is actually on the higher elevation, he is married or not married, it doesn't matter. But on the whole, the sex life is not necessary. Yogeśvara: So these Italian women are complaining now that their husbands are abusing them, so why can they not get divorced? Prabhupāda: Why do you marry? Yogeśvara: Obviously, they wanted sex in the beginning, but they didn't know it was going to be so much trouble. Prabhupāda: That is our point. Then why do you marry? Just begin Kṛṣṇa conscious, and you will find, without sex, you will be happy. Yogeśvara: But what do we advise such women? *Prabhupāda: Whatever they, others women, they may take lesson from them that, "If these woman are suffering or these men are suffering, why should we marry?" There is a Bengali proverb, dekhe sekhe and tekhe sekhe (?). One who is intelligent, he can see what is happening, he becomes cautious. And one, when actually experienced, then he becomes cautious. Less intelligent. So if it is not good, why you are marrying? Why you are induced by sex life? Stop it by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you devote yourself, the whole life, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you will not be agitated by any sex life. And that is yad*-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-pādāravinde. If one is actually advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will deride, "Huh! Nonsense! What is this?" That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, advancement. The only remedy, prime remedy for all solution, is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we have to say. So answers are all right or not? Yogeśvara: No, very nice. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam and chant whole day and night Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called anartha, unwanted things. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the way you've been describing our solutions to the problems of the world, they seem to be on two levels. One is the extended solution, that is to say, the ultimate solution of Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of extended. You keep yourself in a limited solution. And then, when it is appreciated it will be automatically extended. You don't touch the extended. You become ideal civilized man. Others will follow. Yogeśvara: Well, for example, ultimately, we want to live locally. These cities are not necessary. Prabhupāda: No, you make the best use of a bad bargain. We shall depend more... Just like in New Vrindaban. They are coming to the city for preaching. So not absolutely we can abstain immediately because we have been dependent so long, many, many lives. You cannot. But the ideal should be introduced gradually. And make it perfect more and more and more and more. But there is possibility. Possibility if you live locally and make your arrangement, you get your foods... The real necessity is, bodily necessity is, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is necessity. So if you can eat locally, you can sleep locally, you can have your sex life also locally and you can defend locally, then what is the wrong? These are the necessities. We are not stopping this. We are not stopping, "No more sex life." That is nonsense, another nonsense. You must have. Marry. That's all. So you can marry locally and live. Where is the difficulty? Defend. If somebody comes to attack, there must be men to defend. And eating and sleeping. Where is your difficulty? Manage locally, as far as possible. After all, these are the necessities of body. So it can be solved locally. Is it impossible? To solve the bodily necessities? What do you think? Is it impossible? Satsvarūpa: No, it's very simple. Prabhupāda: Then do it. Do it. Set example perfectly. This is nice park. Yes. You can have your park locally. Where is the difficulty? Garden. Fruits, flowers, garden. There is park. Also you can have a pond like this. People are doing that locally. In Bengal especially. Whole Bengal was a garden. It was so nice. Whole Bengal was a garden. Dhanañjaya: I noticed this when I took the train from Calcutta to Krishnanagar. Once you get further out, it's so nice, the villages. There is the pond there. Prabhupāda: And... Why Calcutta? You go to the airport. You will find so nice gardens, still existing. Now it is spoiled also. Because people have changed locally to the city. Nobody has to take care now. Otherwise, in Bengal especially, throughout the whole India, Bengal was so beautiful. The Europeans became attracted by the beauty of Bengal. Therefore they made Calcutta their capital, the Britishers. Yes. Every European liked Bengal. Every European. I met one European German gentleman in Bombay. He was in Calcutta. When I was in Bimha (?). So I asked, "Why you left Calcutta?" "Oh, I am very sorry. Calcutta was so nice." And actually. Where we have got our temple, these quarters were known as "Sahib" quarter. Just like our temple is "Sahib" temple. So these Chowringee and Camac Street, Park, these were all European. They liked very much to live in Bengal. And there is another story. One English officer he became attracted by the beauty of a Bengali woman. There is story by Bankima Candra. Candrashekhara. The man was after that woman, how to get it. That is the subject matter of story. He was attracted by the black eyes and black hair. Bengali beauty. Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa has black hair, too. Prabhupāda: Why do you bring Kṛṣṇa here? This is all sense gratification. (laughter) But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Kṛṣṇa. That is very good. You remember Kṛṣṇa. When childish playing, if you remember Kṛṣṇa's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Kṛṣṇa, that is advancement. Satsvarūpa: Even if the example is not so clear or good. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You remember Kṛṣṇa some way or other. Kṛṣṇa does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Kṛṣṇa. Yogeśvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?" Prabhupāda: Yes, you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yogeśvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?" Prabhupāda: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kīrtana and give them prasādam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge. Then see how we can do. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give up the spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them. Yogeśvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?" Prabhupāda: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize saṅkīrtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasādam here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasādam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all. Yogeśvara: So because we will have cut down his expenses, he will be satisfied with the pay that he has. We would not have to give him more money. Prabhupāda: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then the solution is there. Yogeśvara: So in other words the workers are unsatisfied because they see that the managers are exploiting them, but if they see the managers are giving the money to Kṛṣṇa, they will feel satisfied. Prabhupāda: Yes, and they will also give. Kṛṣṇa becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied. Dhanañjaya: Jaya. This is varṇāśrama institution. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is above varṇāśrama. It is above varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varṇāśrama. Dhanañjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Kṛṣṇa. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not. Satsvarūpa: It is getting a little late. We should... Prabhupāda: Which way we shall go? Dhanañjaya: Just up here. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...their nuts and bolts. Prabhupāda: No, nuts, if there is demand, let this go on. Why shall I shut down. But we cannot run on this slaughterhouse... (end) Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome *Prabhupāda: ...advancement is different from others. There are three stages: bodily, mental, intellectual, and above that, spiritual. So we are propagating spiritual advance. Therefore those who are on the bodily platform, mental platform, or intellectual platform, they cannot understand our process. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Bahiḥ means external. Those who are captivated by the external feature, they cannot understand what we mean by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The external feature, those who are on the bodily platform, they think this material advancement, big, big house, big, big road... This is also required, but this is not all. But they do not know that beyond this, there is other things which is really essential for the human form of life. They are captivated by this, external, bahiḥ. Just like I am, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, I am Brahman, spirit soul. And this body is bahiḥ, the mind is bahiḥ, the intelligence is bahiḥ. That they cannot understand. This water is supplying, what is this? Dhanañjaya: Yes, this is keeping the water fresh so that it doesn't become stagnant. Prabhupāda: Oh. Wherefrom this water is coming? Dhanañjaya: This is coming from the municipal supply. It is not natural. It's not natural spring water or stream water. It's artificially pumped. Prabhupāda: And the water is also going out? Dhanañjaya: Somewhere, yes. It is being circulated. So therefore there must be two kinds of intelligence: intelligence which is being generated by the brain, and intelligence coming from the supersoul. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: So everyone in the material world is caught up with the intelligence generated by the brain. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are bahir*-artha-māninaḥ, they are thinking that this is all. A group of men is coming, and they are exploiting the resources, material world. Just like this building. It is nothing but exploiting the resources. Making brick from the earth or stone or iron. And they pile up. Just like the children goes to the beach, they pile up the sand, and they imagine that somebody is making big palace, somebody is... Dhanañjaya: Big castle. Prabhupāda: Big castle. And at a time they left. In the Roman, the... Formerly, the Romans, they also came. They also constructed big, big buildings. Now they are rotting, and another generation, they also are creating the same thing. But exactly like the children, after playing, they are going. Nobody knows where they have gone. Similarly, these rascals, they are coming. They have got the human intelligence. Simply spoiling that intelligence in amassing the external resources of material nature, and they leave the platform, and again go away and take the birth of some other form of life. Everything forgotten just like dream. This is going on. They cannot understand it has no value. Dhanañjaya: They are thinking their success is in building huge skyscrapers that stand for thousands of years. Prabhupāda: Yes. And within that thousands of years, he personally might have gone to the species of some worms and germs. That they do not believe. If they believe that, then they cannot do it. If they think that "After constructing this big, big skyscraper, I may become a tree or a germ or an animal," then they cannot do this. And they do not encourage this philosophy also. Because if they encourage that, then this thing will not be done. People will not be interested. Just like we are not interested. Therefore they do not like to discuss such thing. This is their position. We are trying to get out of these activities, material activities. And they are trying to entangle themselves in the material activities. So much difference. This is a nice path. Dhanañjaya: So these buildings are mere symbols of their ignorance. Prabhupāda: That's all. They have got some intelligence. They are utilizing for piling up these stones and bricks. That's all. This is their intelligence, how to pile up nicely stones and bricks. Crane. The same thing. The real business is to pile up some stones and bricks, that's all. They are making research, engineering. The real business is how to pile up stones and bricks. That's all. The same business as the children pile up some sand and imagine "This is park, this is this, this is that." Dhanañjaya: Didn't Rāvaṇa want to pile up stones and bricks, too, to reach the heavenly planets. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, he was a materialist. That is the business of the materialist. What is this? Aerodrome? No. Dhanañjaya: No, this is a restaurant. *Prabhupāda: They can eat down. (laughter) These rascals are thinking eating on this top, this is their advancement of civilization. And waste energy. The human energy is so valuable that one can understand his real life, self-realization*-that they forget. They wasting the energy for making a restaurant on the sky. They think it is advancement. Dhanañjaya: They want to dominate over the material energy. *Prabhupāda: What is that dominate? One kick will finish everything. That is illusion. They are thinking, "We are going to dominate," but they are dominated always. Therefore, because they have no intelligence, they cannot understand. One earthquake can finish all this. All go down immediately. So what is that dominate? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ kar... [Bg. 3.27]. The prakṛti, nature, is giving chance just like father and mother give chance that the children pile up stone and sand. "Let them play." Similarly prakṛti, mother prakṛti, nature, giving all this, "Let this rascal play like that. What can be done?" He does not know that "After this piling of stones and bricks, I will have to leave this place. And I do not know where I am going." So less intelligence. And they do not know what he is. He is thinking, "I am this body," but this body will be finished. That's all. "I was zero. I assumed some body. Now again I shall become zero." That's all. Śūnyavādī. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī. It is covered? [break] ...viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā, some utopian hope of becoming happy. This is called durāśayā. Dhanañjaya: And the futuristic plans for the cities have... They are going to enclose the cities in big domes made of plastic. And all the roads instead of being on the ground, they will be in the sky too. And they will have aerial roadways. Prabhupāda: Means idle brain, devil's workshop. They are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." Then they will plan another thing, another thing, and everything will be broken. It is same childish play like that. Dhanañjaya: But these things must have been done before. *Prabhupāda: That is going on. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām: [SB 7.5.30] "chewing the chewed." That's all. You know the sugarcane. You chew it and throw it, and again another man comes to chew it again. This is going on. They do not have the sense... Even in this Rome city, they see that "Big, big buildings were constructed by our previous forefathers and they are now lying, now simply relics. So this will be also relics. So what we are doing actually?" But they have no sense. Another relic. And other generation come; *they will make another relic. This is called punaḥ punaḥ, again and again chewing the chewed. That's all. They have no other brain to do something else, which is actually fact. They are seeing it, that this will be say, after two thousand years it will be all useless. So what actually we are doing?" They have no sense of what is actuality, what is reality, no spiritual knowledge. Therefore bahir*-artha-māninaḥ, external something, some engagement, like children. They play with something; they do not know that "It has no future, it has no meaning, what we are doing." They do not know it. But they are very busy. So this is all childish, ignorance. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, there was a French philosopher, Voltaire. He said you should not simply criticize negatively, because this is the best of all the possible worlds there is. This is all we have. So they would criticize that our hope in the spiritual world is utopian. Better turn to cultivate the material world as best you can. Prabhupāda: No, material world we can see that it is useless. Everyone sees. That I am giving, this example. Before, the Romans, they constructed this big, big building. Now what is the value of that? It has no value. Simply it is kept as sentiment, relics. That's all. So this will be also the same thing. So where is the utility? Spiritual, apart from spiritual, what is the value of your material activity? It is practical. Everyone can see. If one comes to Rome, they can see that these big, big buildings, they were very nice building at that time, very wonderful building, but what is the value of it now? Anyone can see. Any sane man can see. So why should we waste our energy in that way? If there is any valuable work, let us see. That is intelligence. To make another heaps of relics, is that very good sense? Nobody will go there even to urine or pass stool. Dhanañjaya: No facilities. Prabhupāda: No facility. Nobody is... Dhanañjaya: Only the cats go there. Prabhupāda: That's all. Dhanañjaya: So many cats are living there. Satsvarūpa: But just like this building up ahead, they say, "But now we have it, we can enjoy. There are so many facilities there we are enjoying every day." Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. What you are enjoying? Satsvarūpa: In this building, working there. Prabhupāda: So that enjoyment, eating, sleeping, mating, the animals are doing that. What other enjoyment you have got? The same thing, eating, sleeping, that's all. That can be done without this building. Even the animals, they very nicely sleep on the ground. They haven't got skyscraper building, but they have no disturbance in their sleeping. The birds are sleeping on the top of the tree very nicely. So what advancement you have made than the birds and the beasts? The business is the same. Devotee: The Communists say that first we must feed the people, give the people the same rights, and after, we will give them a life of spiritual life, a life of... Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot do that. Why there are so many hungry people all over the world? What you have done? There are thousands and thousands. Even in big, big cities like New York, why there are so many people lying on the street? Why the hippies are lying on the street, on the park? So what is the value of your, this proposal? You cannot stop it. Devotee: Yeah, but they criticize us that we don't want to feed... *Prabhupāda: No, why the hippies are lying on the street or in the park? Why? You give them relief. The whole Amsterdam city is full of hippies lying on the street and park. What you are doing for them? They are not poor men. They have got enough to eat. Their parents, father, grandfather, they can give. Why they are lying? What you can do? Go and pick them up. Make them nicely living. Why don't you do that? Talking nonsense. What is their answer? Why they have become hippies? They are not... The Indians may be poverty*-stricken, but they are not poverty-stricken. In England the whole British empire is there. The whole American government is there. And still, western countries, they have got resources. They have means. They are not poor. Why your sons and grandsons are lying on the street? What is their answer? They are making plan that everyone would live materially very comfortably, but why these people, in spite of possessing material facilities... [break] Yes, this is the real problem. Satsvarūpa: We have to try to teach everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty because everyone is rascal. So we have to give them knowledge. The first basic principle, knowledge, that "You are not this body." And they will never agree. They will not take this knowledge. They will stick to this principle, "No, I am this body, I am American," I am Indian, I am brāhmaṇa, I am kṣatriya, I am this, I am that." They will stick to that. So as soon as they stick to this principle, they are animals. The dog is also thinking like that. If I say to a dog, "Mr. dog, you are not this body; *you are soul," what he will understand? The same position of the so*-called human society. If I say that "You are not American; you are not Roman; you are spirit soul," he will not agree. So what is the difference between dog and him? Is there any difference? The dog cannot understand. If I say, "My dear dog, you are not this body; you are spirit soul," he will not be able to understand. And if I say a gentleman, American or Indian or Roman, that "You are not this body," if he cannot understand, then where is the difference between the dog and the man? Dhanañjaya: No difference. Prabhupāda: That's it. He is a dog actually, and he is thinking "That I am very advanced, civilized." This is the position. Because he has no knowledge. Without knowledge, there is no difference between dog and man. Dog is sleeping on the street very comfortably and you are sleeping on the top of the skyscraper building, taking three dozen pills. (laughter) So what is your civilization? Because for want of knowledge they cannot understand that "What is our actual position. The dog is an animal. He sleeps very comfortably on the street, and I have spent so much money, but I cannot sleep without this tranquilizer." So where is your advancement? Such a nonsense he is. Devotee: No control. Prabhupāda: No. No knowledge. That is the difficulty. Dhanañjaya: And no ability even to enjoy. *Prabhupāda: No, because they have no knowledge. How we can enjoy life without knowledge? They also accept that for this comfortable situation they require knowledge. The engineering knowledge, this knowledge, that knowledge. But that knowledge is not sufficient. You require another knowledge. That you are lacking. You are deficient in that knowledge, self*-realization. That is the defect. This knowledge will not help you. For eating, sleeping knowledge, this child, if I give him some eatable, immediately he knows the knowledge, "This is eatable. I shall capture it and put it in the mouth." It doesn't require any education. That is natural. If I love this child, he will respond. This knowledge is already there. Even a dog, "Tch, tch, tch, come on, come on," he will come. So for this eating, sleeping, mating, the knowledge is there in the animals, in the children. That doesn't require any advanced knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (To child) Come on. Come on, yes. Very intelligent. (laughing) Thank you very much. Satsvarūpa: Then the next question is where do you get your knowledge. Like that boy asked in the airport. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Go to guru. Guru. Yes. (indistinct) Who is guru? Śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham: who has heard from the Vedas perfect knowledge and who is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is guru. Everything is there. Immediate answer is tad-vijñānārtham. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is for inquiring where shall I go for knowledge? Athāto brahma-jiñāsā. Nitāi: So the reply is that "Well, we require some place to stay." Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can stay anywhere. Anywhere. Nitāi: But it's a little bit cold here in Italy, so we require a building. We cannot just stay under a tree. Prabhupāda: Well, Italy... Devotee: It's a very wet country. The winter is very long and wet. Prabhupāda: No no. We don't say that don't construct building, but don't think that this is everything. We don't say that you don't construct building. But you construct building, sit comfortably, but take knowledge. But they are not ready for the knowledge. They think, "This is all knowledge." That's all. That is the difficulty. We say that "All right, you have constructed this building, but you take this knowledge. This is not permanent; you are permanent. So why don't you try for your permanent residence?" Is it very unreasonable? If I say, "My dear Mr. such and such, you have constructed a very nice house. That is all right, but you cannot stay here," Is it a wrong proposal? So why he does not understand that "I will not be able to stay. Then where is that place I will be able to stay forever?" He says... Rascal, he will not take this knowledge. Then he'll say, "Oh, don't talk all these things." Devotee: He gets very angry, very upset at this movement. Prabhupāda: He is such a foolish that he knows that he will not be able to stay in this, but "Why I made this house so strong, durable? I could have made some temporary house, some four pillars, that's all. But why I am anxious? But I want that a building should be so strong it will endure for so many years." But what about you? What is your guarantee? That knowledge, they will not take. This is their illusion. We don't say that you have done wrong. Utilize it. Be comfortable, seated, and use your time for taking that knowledge. Dhanañjaya: They are constructing these buildings in defiance of the existence of God. *Prabhupāda: Not defiance. Out of foolishness. They have got some energy for better purposes, but they are not utilizing it for better purposes,*-for some things which is illusion. That's all. They have got intelligence. This construction of building requires good intelligence, but they're lacking this intelligence, that "I have constructed this house very nicely, but I will not be able to live in it." Dhanañjaya: Actually, they don't live in there. No one lives in these buildings. These are office buildings. Even they don't live there. They simply work. Prabhupāda: That is also living, for eight hours daily. We don't condemn, but our proposal is that you have got higher intelligence. Utilize it for higher purpose. The construction of dwelling place, it is known even to the birds and the beasts. The mouse also knows how to live within the earth. They make a hole. According to their capacity they make there. The birds also, they make their nest also, to live comfortably. So this intelligence there. Dhanañjaya: Also the ants. *Prabhupāda: Ants also. Everyone knows. God has given that intelligence. Everyone knows how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, and how to defend. Everyone knows, according to their... But everyone except the human being does not know what is self*-realization. That is only prerogative of the human being. So if they are not utilizing his intelligence for that purpose, he is simply wasting time, śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8], simply laboring for nothing. Haihaya: Here in Italy the majority of people is communism. The majority of young people is communism. Prabhupāda: What ism you manufacture it doesn't matter. We have to see whether you are understanding the value of life. Our point is that. We don't mind whether you are communist, capitalist, this ist, that ist, that... We want to see whether you are utilizing your human intelligence for right purpose. We don't condemn anyone. If the communists, they are also making the same plan as the capitalist, then what is the use of this communism? The same thing. It may be useful for the temporary purpose, for the rascals, but it is the same quality. Devotee: Gratification. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haihaya: But they say that first we must deposit the same right, the distribution must be equal to everyone. Prabhupāda: That you cannot do. Why don't you see? Why don't you make up others who are already suffering? What you are doing for them? They do not like to take it. Even your proposal, "You come, live in a nice house," they will not take it. Then? What you will do? You are making arrangement for good purposes, for good standard of living, but others, they will not accept your proposal. I have given the example, hippies. Let the Communists come and ask them, "Why you are living in this way? Come on. We shall give you." Why communists? Their government is offering, "Why you are lying on the street? Come on. Live in a nice house." They will not accept it. What you will do, that? Nitāi: That is just like the example you gave the other day about the man sitting under the tree. Someone comes up to him and says, "Come, work hard. You will enjoy." The hippies, their only business is trying to enjoy. They are just absorbed in sense gratification. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The hippies' philosophy is that "After all, we have to enjoy sense. So we are getting free, freedom. We can have sense enjoyment, sex life on the street. Why shall I work for the same purpose? We have already got it. You civilized man, you so*-called civilized, advanced civilized man, for your sex life, you have to go to the skyscraper building, and we can do it on the street, on the park. We have got better facilities. Why shall I accept your philosophy." They will say, they say like that. [break] ...agree to the fact that they have no knowledge. Everything they are doing whimsically without any purpose. [break] ...from their side. You have to find out, make research. Satsvarūpa: I know the communists are very much agitated by our activities, the young people that Haihaya is talking about. They say that we are working for the old order by our simply chanting. Dhanañjaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go back. I don't know why, but this part here is all closed in. [break] Haihaya: Even one brahmacārī in Argentina. Because they didn't like us very much. They think that we are like the religion that we want to alienate the people. Satsvarūpa: But we will take people's minds off the fact that they should be fighting for economic rights. We say, "That's not so important. You should become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And then the people... Just like Marx said, "Religion is the opium of the people." They think we're just pacifying people, when actually everyone should becoming agitated for equal rights. So when they see us... Prabhupāda: So where is equal rights? Even in Russia, there is managerial class and laborer class. Where are equal rights? Why there are managers? Yes. I have seen it. The managerial class and the laborer class. So where is equality? Why the managerial class? You know that? There must be required. The old women, they are sweeping the street. Why not Mr. Lenin come and sweep the street? Why he is sitting in a big palace and the poor woman has been engaged to sweep the street? Where is equality? What advancement they have made? We are following opiate. They are following opiate, Lenin's rascal's philosophy. That's all. That is also opiate. But where is equality? That is also opiate. You are advocating equality, but where there is a man manager and another man is working. So why you are accepting this nonsense philosophy being opiated by rascal Lenin? Haihaya: They measure everything by the type of work. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. If I become manager, I will pay for that. Suppose there is work as a... Would you like to work sweep the street or become manager? What shall I say? "No, no, I shall become manager." Why this mentality? Why he does not accept, "Yes, I shall sweep"? Haihaya: Yes, but the point is that equal right is... Prabhupāda: Where is equal right? Haihaya: The same possibilities of education to everyone. Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is equal right? That is also with the capitalists also. The same thing, we divide. We divide that "This is brāhmaṇa, this is kṣatriya, this is vaiśya, this is śūdra." We also divide, and you also divide. Then where is the advancement in philosophy? Haihaya: Because they think that capitalists, they don't give the same possibilities to earn... Prabhupāda: They think, but we see practically: Why there is difference between this manager and the laborer class? Will the dictator, the manager will take the same salary as the sweeper is taking? Why there is difference? Why the manager is given more preference for living condition? Where is equality? First of all show me. Simply talking will not do. Dhanañjaya: Actually, the only difference is that in the communist countries, religion is not allowed. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But their philosophy that everyone is equal... Where is equality? There is no equality. Why you are talking nonsense? And in Moscow I have seen. So many people are walking, and others are going on motorcar. Why? why this difference? Why not everyone motorcar? Then what improvement you have made? You are simply talking. Why this difference? Nobody wants to walk. Why thousands of people walking on the street, and some of them are going on motorcar? Why? Where is the equality? Haihaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they said that equality came by... No, it's not equal, but they must give the same possibilities to everyone. *Prabhupāda: Oh. So that everyone is giving. We also give. "Never mind you are śūdra. You become brāhmaṇa. Come on. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious." That we also are giving. We don't deny, "Oh, you are śūdra, you cannot become a brāhmaṇa." We don't say that. He can also become brāhmaṇa. "Come on. You learn how to become brāhmaṇa." That's all. That... The point is this equality, there cannot be. First point is this. This is nonsense. But everyone should be given the chance to occupy the best position. That is in our philosophy also. But unequality there must remain. You cannot make equality. It is not possible. That is nonsense. In your country there is no equality. Why an old man-I have seen it*-she is sweeping the street? So old woman, she should have taken rest, but she is engaged for sweeping the street. And a young man, he is becoming dictator. Where is the equality? She should have given rest, but she is obliged to work. And another young man, he is a manager. Why? Why this inequality? Where is equality? First of all settle up how you can make equal. That you cannot do. Then you are talking nonsense, "equality." It is not possible. Haihaya: We are spirit soul. That is equality. Prabhupāda: That is equality. That is the position of equality. Nitāi: But as far as these bodies go, there is no equality. Prabhupāda: There cannot be. How a man and woman can be equal? The woman has to give birth, she has to become pregnant. Why the man cannot be pregnant. Why? Why this inequality? To take care of the child, to become pregnant, so much responsibility, the man does not take, especially in this country. He impregnates one girl, and he goes away. And all the responsibility is for the girl. Therefore he (she) wants to get rid of it. He (She) takes the course of abortion. Kill it. This is the psychology. Where is equality? You put her into inconvenient position, and she commits another sin. She is obliged. Where is equality? And you go away. So this rascaldom philosophy may go on. We have got answer for all the rascals. They are all rascals. Haihaya: The communists, they kicked us from the university in Mexico, because we were always defeat there in the philosophy. It is very easy to defeat communists with this philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to do. There may be opposition, but what can be done? We have to speak the resu..., that "There cannot be equality sir. You are talking nonsense." Challenge them, and let them prove that "Here is equality." Where is equality? Where is equality? You are human being. You are trying to live very comfortably. Why don't you make comfortable life for other living entities? Why you are sending them to the slaughterhouse? Where is equality? Haihaya: If we have a world day every month, fasting world day. If we can fast, all the world can fast, all inhabitants of the world... Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot expect that the whole world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible. You keep your standard. Don't be bewildered by these rascals. That is our proposal. We should not be misled by this rascal philosophy. We shall stick to our own philosophy. That is required. Because we know all their philosophy are defective. That is not perfect. So why shall I be misled by their philosophy? We shall stick to our own principle, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. That's all. Everyone should stick to the right philosophy. That is human sense. Not be biased and carried away by some whimsical way. Satsvarūpa: Their philosophy is very appealing because they begin, they say... Prabhupāda: That is because people are fools, rascals. Therefore it is very... Satsvarūpa: They say, "Look, all these people are starving and these people have all the money. Let us make it equal. And the people become slave..." Prabhupāda: But that is not being done. Therefore I said... I go to their country. "Why in your country there is inequality? Why in your country?" That was my point. "Why you have made a class of men as manager and a class of men as worker?" Nobody wants to be worker. Satsvarūpa: Everyone knows that Russia is just like the U.S. almost. Prabhupāda: What is that? (loud siren) Dhanañjaya: That's ambulance. Nitāi: So when they talk with the peasants, they are convincing. Because the peasants don't know anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nitāi: They cannot face anybody who knows something. Prabhupāda: Yes. They make this propaganda. They take bread to the peasants, and the peasants go to the church, and ask, "O God, give us our daily bread." Then they ask, "Has God given you bread?" So they say, "No sir." "You ask us." "Oh, Mr. Communist, give me bread." "Ah, take as much..." "Who is better?" "You are better." They'll say like that. But they have no sense that wherefrom this rascal has brought this bread. If God had, would not have given the wheat, wherefrom he would make the bread? But that, they have no sense. This is going on. If they had sense, they would immediately reply, "You are not giving the bread. God has given this bread." Because he prepared bread from the wheat. And wheat has been given by God. "You cannot prepare food. Therefore God has given." Haihaya: Actually, they ask to God and they get it. *Prabhupāda: Actually, God is giving us bread, not this "Communist Party." That's a fact. But they have no intelligence to reply these rascals. That's all. Therefore these isms, so*-called isms, is good for the rascals, not for the intelligent man. Intelligent man will immediately ask, "Where is your equality?" And they cannot reply. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...also based on karma, that one man is meant to have more than another of material things? Is that an argument against...? Prabhupāda: Is there any difficulty to understand? As soon as you say you become manager, that means his karma is better. Where is the difficulty to understand it? Why you appoint one man manager and one man worker? His capacity of karma is better. So where is the difficulty to understand? Better karma, better reward. It is going on. Haihaya: The communists asked to us what we do for the starving people. Prabhupāda: Rascal, what you have done? You are simply talking. What you have done? There are so many starving people all over the world. What you have done? "Starving people." I have seen. They cannot give starving people. Just like we went to Russia. So we wanted rice. There is no rice. There was no good rice. We wanted fruit. There was no fruit. So what you have done? I am starving for fruit and rice. You cannot supply me. That is practical. I have seen it. They will offer, "Take this beef instead of fruit." Then I will starve. So what he has done for me? I am starving. I cannot take beef. I want rice, but you cannot supply me. That I have seen. One Madrasi gentleman was bringing rice for me. It could not be purchased in the market. There is no fruit. So if I want fruit and rice and if you give me beef, it is as good as if I want bread, if you give me stone. So where is the capacity to satisfy the starving? I am starving for rice. You cannot give me. Why do you propose like that, that you can satisfy the starving man. You cannot do that. You are talking nonsense. Can you satisfy everyone? Somebody is starving for knowledge. So how you can... This bluff will not satisfy him. So where is the question of starving, satisfying the starving? It is not possible. Unless he is satisfied, nobody can satisfy others. That satisfaction is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I am fully satisfied. I don't want." Where is the satisfaction? You cannot satisfy everyone. That is not possible. In Russia, there are so many unsatisfied people, so many millions. Where they are satisfied? If you think that "You must eat what I give you," that is not my satisfaction. That is your satisfaction. So where is the question of satisfying the starving? How it is possible? You cannot force me to do something and say, "Be satisfied." That is not possible. If you satisfy me as I want, then you can satisfy me. Are they able to do this? Then where is the question of...? Dhanañjaya: If they are not satisfied, then they must do things underground, under cover. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. There are some philosopher. He has written book-he has got Nobel Prize*-that "This Russian government, simply terrorism." He has written a book. He is a famous man. He got Nobel Prize. He has said that "This is simply terrorism; a set of, a group of men, simply under terrorism they are governing." Dhanañjaya: Solzhenitsyn? Prabhupāda: I think so. Yes. So where is the satisfaction? He wants something. That is... That is not possible. When there is full knowledge, one can be satisfied on knowledge, not by this artificial means. That is not possible. So actually the whole world is suffering for want of knowledge. So we are giving that knowledge. We are satisfying everyone. We are giving the knowledge. Haihaya: And we are feeding too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, that is secondary. That is secondary. Dhanañjaya: But their philosophy is first you feed them; then give them knowledge, Prabhupāda: But why...? You cannot feed even. Just like I wanted rice, I wanted fruit. You could not give me. So why do you claim that you can feed everyone? That you cannot. You are falsely claiming. If you think that simply supplying meat, everyone will be satisfied, that is your nonsense. Haihaya: Yes, they give. But they say you must prostitute for it. You must prostitute for this food which we give you. Prabhupāda: So is that very good proposal? Haihaya: It's worst thing that one can propose. It's just to push man to degenerate himself because of this food, little food. Prabhupāda: It is my practical experience. Śyāmasundara had to waste at least two to three hours to secure rice, fruits. Only milk and butter could we get. And then we had to wait in the... They would not allow us to cook unless they had finished. This was the difficulty. Practically I have suffered. All their claims are bogus. The people are not happy there. The young men are not allowed to go outside the country. Just see. All freedom lost. All freedom lost. It is a government of terrorism, that's all. And whatever the Communists do, simply by terrorizing that's all. They have no gentleman's method. Terrorizing. [break] ...misleading other rascals that "You come this way; you will be happy." And the rascals are being misled. They are accepting. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. The blind man is asking other blind men, "Come on, I shall cross you the street." But because he is rascal, he does not ask, "Sir, you are also blind. how will you lead us?" They cannot inquire. Or he does not know that "This man is asking me, who is willing to take the leadership, he is also blind." This blind man does not know, do not know. They do not know. This is going on. Dhanañjaya: Just like I read in Time Magazine a few weeks ago that Russia has a big problem with alcohol, because so many people are drinking vodka. So because of detente there is easier relationships between America and Russia, and now America is shifting over a Pepsi Cola company. This is a soft drink company. They are going to build a big factory near Moscow. And so Brezhnev said, "Well, I hope that people will now take to soft drinking and this will ease our alcoholic problem in Russia." Prabhupāda: Huh? Dhanañjaya: They cannot solve their problem of alcohol consumption. And they are thinking that "If we import from America a soft drink factory to produce lemonade, orange, Coca Cola and so on, this will solve the problem." Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is creating problem. What is this. Innocent? Dhanañjaya: Innocenti. This is the name of a car. Actually, it's an "i" at the end, innocenti. (end) Morning Walk -- May 30, 1974, Rome *Prabhupāda: ...oba. Mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha*-vratānām. Adānta-gobhir viśatām... (aside:) Not too near. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām, getting life after life and enjoying sense: the same eating, the same sleeping, the same sexual intercourse, and same defense, either as dog or as man or as bird or beast. This is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. These four things are available, either you become a dog or a god. Not God, these demigods. In the material world, everyone is given the facilities for eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Now, if some dangers come, so we may be victims, but a bird immediately goes. He has better defense. Is it not? If some dangers come immediately... Suppose all of a sudden a motorcar comes and kills us. We cannot do anything, but the bird, small bird, "Hut!" He can do that. Is it not? So his defensive measure is better than us. Similarly, I want to have sex. I have to arrange for that, find out some... But the female bird is always around him, at any time. This sparrow, the pigeon. You have seen it? Immediately ready for sex life. And eating? Oh, there is some fruit. Immediately he can eat. And sleeping? That is also very comfortable. So these facilities, don't think that it is available on this skyscraper building. They are available for the birds and the beasts. It is not that unless you have got a very nice apartment in the skyscraper building, you cannot have all these facilities of eating, sleeping and sex life. Anywhere. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. This is called viṣaya. Viṣaya means the facilities for sense enjoyment. That is called viṣaya. Our process is viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. One has to give up this viṣaya and relish the transcendental bliss. It is a different platform. And these persons, bodily concept of life, their only enjoyment is this viṣaya. So śāstra says that you are after viṣaya. This is available in any life. Why you are repeating this viṣaya in different forms of life either as bird or beast or tree or human being or cats and dogs? Punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. Again and again, the same thing, in different forms. So those who are interested with this viṣaya, matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā, they cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious, parataḥ, by instruction of spiritual master or experienced person, or by themselves. Themselves, they cannot. Even by instruction by the spiritual master or higher authorities. Parataḥ. Svataḥ, personally, or by others' instruction, matir na kṛṣṇe, they cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Mitho 'bhipadyeta. Mithaḥ, or by conference, consulting, making a meeting, "What is the problem of life?" They cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why? Gṛha-vratānām. So long they have got this determination, "We shall be happy in this material world," they cannot take... Gṛha-vratānām. Gṛha means home and gṛha means this body also. Those who are trying to be happy within this body, material world, they cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām. Why they cannot? Adānta-gobhiḥ: their senses are so uncontrolled. Therefore they must undergo the process of punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], again and again, the same viṣaya: eating, sleeping, mating. That's all. Nitāi: So our business is to convince them that they can't be happy in the material world? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That they have got experience. Therefore daily they are founding so many parties, manufacturing so many means and plans and this and that, but they are not happy. But they are so fool, great fool, that in spite of being repeatedly baffled, still, punaḥ punaś carv..., the same thing, under different form. What is the difference between these rascal communists and capitalists? After all, they are animals. How they can make things, better arrangement? That is not possible. The only thing... This man will say, "Exploit others," and other man shall, "Give food to the others." What is there? Give food to the others or exploit*-the same animal propensity. Where is the advancement? The capitalists are thinking, "Exploit others." The same thing, like animals. This dog, as soon as he saw the shadow of his own body with the food, he thought that "Let me capture that food." This is exploitation. And another will say "No, first of all give food." So they are fighting like this. So everyone's aim is that we shall remain within this material world and happy. Therefore gṛha-vratānām. Satsvarūpa: If we can get enough to eat and sex, we will be happy. *Prabhupāda: That's all. And then they become impotent and go to the doctor, "Give me sex medicine." You see? Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. The same thing. Not at home sex, but "Let us go to the prostitute, go to the naked dance." They have no other ideas. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. These class of men cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all, one must be in knowledge that "I am not anything of this material world. I am spirit soul. My happiness is in the spiritual world." Then he can be. Haihaya: Some people say that what make us different from the animals is that we can enjoy art and we can enjoy music and we can enjoy all type of art... Prabhupāda: The animals... the snake also can enjoy music. Do you know that? You play very nice music. A snake will be charmed. He will stand. It will not attack you. Similarly the deers... The hunters, they play very nice music, and they assemble here, and they fight and kill them. Nitāi: The birds are also making their music. Prabhupāda: No. That is another thing. But these deer and the snakes, many animals, they are very much fond of music. They enjoy. Satsvarūpa: The pure devotee gives the chance to everyone, but only a few approach. So still the question is how can they become interested in the pure devotee? *Prabhupāda: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Kṛṣṇa, sarva*-dharmān parit... mām ekam. Kṛṣṇa is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The śāstra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Kṛṣṇa," mahīyasām. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. That is the only attachment for this material world, viṣaya. Whole world is fighting for this viṣaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on. Defense. Rascal does not understand that "In spite of all these things, I will have to change the body, and the same thing will be available again, in a different way." This intoxication, cigarettes. The ant, the small ant, they are very fond of intoxication. You know that? As soon as there is information, "On the top of the skyscraper building, there is a grain of sugar," they will go. (laughing) Because sugar contains intoxication. The wine is made from sugar, molasses. It has got the intoxication. You keep a grain of sugar there, and there will be hundreds and thousands... (laughter) Gold rush. Study. You see what is the difference of this civilization and the ant civilization, dog civilization, cat civilization. No difference. It is in the simply formation only. Dhanañjaya: Yes, I've seen sometimes at the Sunday Feast we make some sweets, like sweetballs, and there's some left over. They'd find the next day so many drowned ants, because they'd been so wild, they'd jump into it and drown themselves. *Prabhupāda: So śāstra says, labdhvā su*-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte: "My dear human being, please note. You have got this form of life after many many births, bahu-sambhavānte. You had to undergo the aquatic life, 900,000 species, the birds, trees and plants, two million. How much time it has gone by for this evolution. Now you have come to the human form of life." Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte mānuṣyam: "This is human form of life." Artha-dam: "Now you can achieve success. Although it is temporary, but you can achieve the highest perfection of life. Therefore," tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyu yāvat, "before next death, you be very dexterous to complete the success." And if you think, then what about my sense enjoyment? Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt: "It will be available any life. This life you spend for this purpose. Don't waste simply for viṣaya." Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. This you will get even if you become cat and dog. But in the cat and dogs, I will not get this opportunity, how to get out of this material existence. Labdhvā su-durlabham idaṁ bahu-sambhavānte. These are the instructions of Prahlāda. These rascals have no education to understand. Therefore we must give this education. We must induce them to read these books in the school, colleges. That is propaganda. Now we have got books. These rascals, they have no books to read about this realization. They have got only Freud's philosophy and this... What is that? And Darwin's theory. All rascaldom, simply rascaldom. Let them read these books. This philosopher, that philosopher. What is that? Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. The same philosophy, repeatedly for sense gratification, that's all. That rascal Mahesh Yogi, he also said that, "You take this special mantra; *your material enjoyment will be easier." The same: the punaḥ punaś carvita. He has no other information. "It will be better." And they accepting. "Oh, my enjoyment will be better? All right, take $35. Give me that mantra." They like it because they are promising that "You will get this..." Politicians also, they are promising, "You take this ism. Your sense gratification will be easier." The same promise. This ism or that ism. This yogi, that yogi. But nobody knows what is actually happiness. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha [SB 7.5.31]. They are trying to be happy by sense enjoyment, material body's enjoyment. Durāśayā. It is simply a hope which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Āśayā means hope and dur means very difficult. It will not be possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And they are being led by such rascal leaders, who are promising sense gratification. Because they are blind, another blind man comes and says that "You will be happy in this way. Come on this way. Your sense gratification will be very much easily satisfied. come on." "Yes. Very good leader." Adānta-gobhiḥ. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pi [SB 7.5.31]. They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature. There is no freedom. Only varieties of sense enjoyment is offered because he want, want, wants. Actually, that is not enjoyment. That is bound up. Nature's... If you enjoy more sex life, nature says, "All right, you become impotent for ten years." And still he wants to enjoy. Little this way, that way-immediately punishment. "Oh, you have eaten more, three days suffer. No diet, no food. Suffer dysentery." And they are enjoying. What is this enjoyment? As soon as violate a little of the nature's law you are immediately punished. Na te viduḥ. Īśa-tantryāṁ baddhāḥ. Īśa-tantryām, the laws of nature, they are so much bound up, hands and legs. Still, they are declaring freedom. What is the freedom? Immediately he will be kicked by shoes as soon as he violates a little, immediately. There is ocean of salt. Now we require salt for making our foodstuff very tasty. But if you take little more salt, you cannot eat. No, you cannot eat. If you think, "Oh, so much salt? Let me put more salt, more salt," it will be useless. You can take only so much quantity. That's all. In this way you are bound up, always. And still, you are declaring freedom. What freedom? What is the meaning of this freedom? But they are fools. They cannot understand. Haihaya: Then Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the right quantity of salt. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is giving you everything in right way so that you can save your time, you do not waste your time, and you can advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required. We don't say that you stop eating. You eat. Take little Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't say that "Don't sleep." No, you sleep, but must rise early in the morning for maṅgala-ārati. This is our philo... Eating, sleeping, and sex. No, we don't say no sex life. Yes, you have sex life. Get your bona fide wife, live peacefully. And defense also, we have. We never say that you forego all these things. No, this is not our philosophy. But similarly, as much as you absolutely require, not more than that. The balance time, save for advancement. These people are simply engaged for eating, sleeping, mating. They have no time for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This condemned civilization must be stopped. Killing, killing civilization. The human being got the opportunity of getting out of this punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], repeatedly, and they are not being given the chance. They are being engaged more and more for sense gratification, viṣaya. Killing civilization. Jñāna-tapasā. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. By this process, bahavaḥ, many, by knowledge and tapasya. Pūtāḥ, purified, came back, back to home. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Vīta-rāga-bhaya-krodhā man-mayā mām upāśritāḥ, bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mām... [Bg. 4.10]. What is that, last word? *Nitāi: Mad*-bhāvam āgatāḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, mad*-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Mad-bhāvam, "My nature." "My nature" means spiritual nature. Kṛṣṇa is spirit. Or the another nature. This is material nature. This is another nature. That is kingdom of God, spiritual nature, Vaikuṇṭha planet. Āgatāḥ: "They came." Every information is there, every opportunity is there. Simply they are not educated. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for educating these rascals. That's all. They are mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ, mad. From the morning, as soon as they rise, "Give me a cup of tea, immediately I have to go to there and there and there." What you will do then? "Yes, I will die. I will die in a motor accident. They are waiting for me." All right, go. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. All kinds of forbidden works they are doing. What? What is the purpose? Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaye. Purpose is only sense gratification. The rascal does not know that "I am doing all these sinful activities for sense gratification, and I will have to accept a very low-grade body." That he does not know. He has already got one low-grade body. He is suffering only. And he will still get another low-grade body, more suffering. That he does not know. But still, he will do everything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti na sādhu manye: [SB 5.5.4] "Oh, it is not good." Na sādhu manye yata ātmano' yam: "This kind of activities will cover your soul by body." "Well, this body is temporary. Don't bother." Then another body, rascal. This body is temporary, but you get another body, most abominable. Why you are doing like this? Asann api. Although this body is temporary, but why don't you understand that it is kleśada: It is always subjected to miserable condition of material life. Kleśada. This is kleśada, another body you get, kleśada. Any body you get, kleśada. Why do you get this? Stop these activities. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That they do not know. Da means "that gives." Any type of material body you accept will be kleśada. They have constructed this building. If for few hours there is severe cold, so many people will die, even in this comfortable building. Is it not? So kleśada is there; either you remain in this way or that way, the sufferings will be there. And to take this comfort of this high building, how much kleśada, how much miserable condition, one has to pass. "Sir, I am not doing; the workers are doing." But you have to collect the money to pay them. How much miserable it is to acquire this money to pay another kleśada, laborer. So simply they are captivated by money. Otherwise it is kleśada. Sometimes they fall down and die while constructing. Is it not? Now, I have heard that in New York there are many buildings and there is no tenant. Kleśada. The proprietor of the house, he is also suffering. "I have spent so much money. No tenant." In London I have seen there is, for the last six or seven years, very big building. It is vacant. Dhanañjaya: Tottenham Court Road. Yes, that big one. Central Point. Prabhupāda: Yes (laughing). His kleśada is if he keeps tenant, that is more miserable than without keeping tenant. Is it not? Yes. Therefore he keeps without. Because so much taxes will have to be paid that it will be more miserable than keeping tenants. So he is avoiding that. So while constructing, it was troublesome; now, keeping this, it is also troublesome. To find out pleasure they have manufactured so many things. But still, they cannot enjoy it. For few minutes they can enjoy; again it is nonsense. "Let us go away." [break] Satsvarūpa: ...that I can actually become a bird or a dog because... Prabhupāda: What are these... Wherefrom these birds and dogs are coming? Let them answer. Wherefrom they are coming? Nitāi: Well, they would say from other birds and dogs. Prabhupāda: Yes, other birds or these birds, wherefrom they are coming? Satsvarūpa: But that's not my condition. I am a human being. *Prabhupāda: That you may think, but you do not know the nature's law. You have to accept. Just like this apartment, either you accept or somebody accept. Similarly, these bodies are apartment. You have to accept or your brother has to accept. Somebody must accept. They are also living entities. Wherefrom they are coming? As I am a living entity, they are also living entity. So changing body, I may change to that body, he may change to this body. Where is the unreasonableness? We are all living entities. These are different types of bodies. So we have to accept some body. Similarly, he has to accept some body. So he may accept my body, I may accept his body. This apartment change. I may go to this apartment, he may go to another apartment. But there are so many apartments, gṛha. Therefore it is called gṛhamedhī. If you say, "No, no, I am not going to accept that apartment." "No, no, it is not your judgement." Daiva*-netreṇa. "What money you have got, sir, to occupy?" "I have no money." "All right, then go this apartment." You must accept. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. By your work it will be ascertained what kind of apartment you will get. It is not upon your decision. There are so many, many rascals. They think that after getting human body, he is never degraded. The theosophists think like that. That is very palatable. (laughing) But nature will force him to accept the body of a cat and dog. That is not your decision. Daiva-netreṇa, the superior decision. Just in office, you get promotion or degradation. That is not your decision. That is the decision of the higher directors. You cannot say that "No, no, I am not going to accept this post." No. You have to accept. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. These different types of birth are due to your association with different types of the modes of material nature. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties. One has become crow, one has become sparrow, one has become human being, one has become dog, one has become cat, one has become tree, one has become grass. But nature is so expert that in spite of different varieties of life, the nature assembles them in such a nice way that it looks beautiful. There is grass, there is tree, there is sparrow, there is human being, but arrangement is such nice that everything... (end) Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva Prabhupāda: Give him chair. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. C. Hennis: Your disciples were kind enough to call on me and invite me to come and have a talk with you. Prabhupāda: That is very kind of you. *C. Hennis: Thank you very much. I come from the International Labor Organization which is an organization in the United Nations family. It's the second organization after the United Nations itself, and it's interested in every form of labor, every form of activity connected with labor, and the protection of the worker, the welfare of the worker. And in many respects, of course, our preoccupations must overlap with yours in certain respects of the activities, of man in general and his protection and his well*-being. *Prabhupāda: So according to our Vedic conception, the labor class man is supposed to be the fourth-class man. First-class man, intelligentsia, very intelligent, learned. Or intelligent*-one who can understand up to God. To understand God requires great intelligence. So first intelligent class of men, up to, so they are called brāhmaṇa. The next intelligent class man, those who give protection to the society, kṣatriya. And the third class, those who produce food and distribute. They are third class. And other, all others, they are fourth class. *C. Hennis: My organization is in fact concerned with the well being of all four classes. It is not only with the laboring man. It's also primarily with the producers, but also with the managers, leaders, and to a certain extent also with the protective classes in that we are interested in the well*-being of policemen, hospital personnel, doctors, nurses, that kind of social security workers, and that kind of person. We are interested in the intelligentsia in that they are professional workers, often independent, whose professional rights and obligations need to be safeguarded and codified. That's a standard laid down in the form of international labor standards. One of our activities, not perhaps now the most important, but one of the first. *Prabhupāda: No. My point was, point is that... Because one is fourth-class, therefore we are not interested in that*-it is not my point. My point is that there are four classes of men: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. And our point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for taking care of all classes of men. Although by natural division there are four classes of men, first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, but the example we generally give, just like in your body there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division, but all of them meant for keeping the body fit. And body is meant for giving supply to everyone of them. But if you comparatively make division, the head comes the first division, the arms comes the second division, the belly comes the third division, and the legs comes the fourth division. So we should organize in such a way that all the classes of men in the society be happy, not that we simply take care of the head. The same example: In your body it is not your business just simply take care of the head or the legs. No. All these different divisions of your body, you take care. That is healthy body. When your brain is working nicely, when your arms are working nicely, your abdomen is working nicely and legs are working nicely, then you are fit. If you simply take care of the legs, not of the brain, that is not a good healthy body. C. Hennis: Yeah. I think... *Prabhupāda: Just let me finish. So United Nation is taking care of the fourth class department of the society. What they are taking care of the first*-class department? That is my question? Nitāi: He is asking what are they doing to care for that first division. *Prabhupāda: At the present moment in the society, there is very, very little care for the first*-class intellectual class of men. *C. Hennis: The International Labor Organization has as one of its major aims to promote social justice, and that means that every class of worker, if you like to accept the four categories that you mentioned*-the intellectual, the productive, the protective, and the laboring classes-should each have their proper place in society, should each have a full measure of human dignity, and should each have a proper share in the rewards for labor, both clearly material rewards and honors and dignity and leisure and time for, free time for meditation and so on. In the International Labor Organization, we are not like UNESCO devoted to the more philosophical and cultural and educational aspects for the intelligentsia, but I would draw your attention to the fact that the UNESCO is very much concerned with looking after the head part of society. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is my request to you. C. Hennis: That's UNESCO. That I can't answer upon very fully. But I would suggest that they are, in that way UNESCO, United Nations through UNESCO, is very active in promoting culture and in stimulating philosophical thought. We are, on our side are more concerned with the place of the worker in society, and our organization is conceived along a peculiar model which we call the tripartite system. The members of our organization are states, not governments, but states, and each state is represented in our conference by two government delegates, one delegate of the employers and one delegate of the workers. And so the decisions that are reached, the same pattern goes down through the other organs of the organization. But the decisions that are reached in the International Labor Organization are thus not decisions which are only those of the government or the governing classes. They are decisions which represent a very broad consensus of opinions between both the employers and the workers as well as governments. And to that extent we do hope to find resolutions that have a very wide basis of ratification. After they are agreed upon by these three different elements of society represented in our International Labor Conference and in the other organs of the International Labor Organization, we endeavor to get the decisions ratified by national governments. Nevertheless the people who are here go back to their countries and try and get the decisions ratified so that a measure of uniformity in social justice and in the treatment of labor and protection of labor and in social security and in occupational safety and health and of all these things which are bound up with work and also payments to professional workers such as architects, nurses, doctors, people who work on a quite independent basis without being employed. It's not necessarily employees. Veterinarians and so on. The conditions of employment... *Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first*-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed. *C. Hennis: Well the third*-class would be what kind of typical worker? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Third*-class men means making provision for the society for eating. That is... It is stated, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Kṛṣi means agriculture, and go-rakṣya means cow protection, and vāṇijyam means trade. That means the third-class men, they would give protection to the cows, produce enough food grains, and if there is excess, then it can be traded. So this is the business of the third-class men. C. Hennis: But that would cover businessmen and tradesmen and farmers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Farmers means... Nowadays especially in the western country, I see the farmer means they are raising cows for being killed. There is no cow protection. C. Hennis: That may well be the case. That may well be the case. As it is not by any means... Prabhupāda: I have seen. I have seen in England, I have seen in America, they simply raise the cows for being killed in future. You see? But the duty of the agriculturist, they should give very, very protection to the cows especially. C. Hennis: This doesn't apply to bulls and bullocks and male animals generally does it? Prabhupāda: No, bullocks also. Cow means bullock also. C. Hennis: Oh, is it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Cow is feminine, bullock is the masculine, that's all. C. Hennis: So it's the whole bovine race that's protected, and not just the cows themselves, not just the female cows? C. Hennis: Well, I think that the International Labor Organization is devoted to the reduction of inequalities between the different classes of men with a view to getting them all a better share of the good things of life, and by that, they may begin to reach a greater degree of human happiness, as they understand it, as the people themselves understand it. It may be that they don't understand it well. *Prabhupāda: No. Nature's way is not better share, but equal share. Just like when you take foodstuff, put it in the stomach, and when it is easily digested and transformed into different secretion and comes to the heart and becomes blood, there is equal distribution. Not that because brain is first*-class, therefore the blood transformation to the brain should go more. No. Then it will be blood pressure, high blood pressure. This is nature's way, that... But when the energy goes to the brain, it acts differently. When the energy goes to the hands, it acts differently. The electricity energy is the same, but sometimes by working on the dictaphone, sometimes on the microphone, sometimes in electric heater, sometimes in refrigerator... The different apparatuses are there, but the energy is the same, equal. In that sense, the communistic idea that whatever energy is there, whatever resources are there, they should be equally distributed, that is nature's way. From the body we can understand that when the foodstuff turns into secretion, it goes to the heart and becomes blood. The blood is transfused through different veins to different parts of the body, and you will find everybody is satisfied. C. Hennis: When you say equal shares, in certain things like food, I think that would probably be true of the general approach of... Prabhupāda: I am not speaking of the food. I am speaking of the benefit. Benefit should be equally shared. Now, benefit means... Suppose you can eat more than me. You can eat, say, half a pound of foodstuff, or I can eat one pound, foodstuff. So to give me food, one pound, and to give you food, half pound, that is equal because I require so much. Similarly, the benefit must be equal, as far as you require, I require. Therefore we call it benefit. There is not, I mean to say discrimination in deriving the benefit out of the energy produced in the body. Then everything will be all right. And if the brain works nicely, if the arms work nicely, if the stomach works nicely and the legs work nicely, then you are healthy body. You can do everything very nicely. C. Hennis: And then, in taking the analogy in terms of the world society, we have a society which is properly integrated and properly balanced. This is an idea which is by no means alien to the... *Prabhupāda: My original point was that if we take simply care of the fourth*-class division of the society, do not take care of the first-class division of the society, then, in spite of taking care of the fourth-class society, it will not grow very nicely. Because the brain is not in order. C. Hennis: Yes. I think that in fact my organization is really intimately concerned... Prabhupāda: That was my point, that you are taking of the laborer class. That is just like the legs. C. Hennis: Well "labor," in fact means any kind of work, any kind of activity, any kind of occupational activity. Prabhupāda: But you cannot say the... Any kind of activities, but everyone has got particular type of activity. C. Hennis: Quite so. Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "I can do any kind of work." I can give you advice about spiritual life, but if you require medical advice, then you have to go to somebody else. You cannot expect medical advice from me. So this is not a fact, that everyone can do everything. No. C. Hennis: No, no, I agree. I agree. Prabhupāda: There must be division. There must be division, and each division must be maintained very nicely. Then the whole society is all right. C. Hennis: That I would agree with. And my organization... *Yogeśvara: Perhaps one difference is that when we speak about the first*-class, or the head division, the intellectual class, we are speaking about a class that is people who belong to that class by qualification, not simply that they have some title, that they are professor or that they are scholar. They have to be properly qualified. C. Hennis: It's difficult to be a professor or a doctor unless you may have some type of qualification. Yogeśvara: Well, he says it's difficult to be any kind of doctor or professor unless you are properly qualified. Prabhupāda: No, from this point of... He is right. Unless he has got the medical degrees, unless he is educated... We also say that thing, that unless one is sufficiently educated in medical science or legal science, he cannot be said a medical man or a legal man. *C. Hennis: You see, my organization represents all the states in the world practically, all the states of any importance in the world, with the exception of a few like Monaco and San Marino and Andorra and that kind of place. And through my organization, the states of the world, and that doesn't only mean governments, express their concern and endeavor to improve the lot of all of the people who are active in some way in the economy and in modern society, these may be professional workers. We don't deal with medical doctors because that is the problems of the World Health Organization. We don't deal with teachers and university professors and philosophers and so on because that is more the problem of UNESCO, and they deal with it very thoroughly. We don't deal by any means fully with the actual production of foodstuffs. This is the FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization who does it. What we do do, we look after the rewards the people get for the work they do in the ordinary way of life as employees in offices, in banks, in commerce, in shops, trading. We are very interested in developing rural areas and in improving the lot of the rural worker so that the rural worker will no longer be under a disadvantage by comparison with the workers in the towns, so that they will have proper facilities, proper leisure and proper opportunities for self*-improvement. *Prabhupāda: I may say in this connection, in America, the laborer class is very highly paid. Anyone, any labor class man can earn $25, $50, daily, very easily. But because there is no direction of the brain, these labor class of men*-I have seen-they-especially these Negroes-51%, they are drunkards. They spend their money in drinking. They do not know how to utilize the money. Because the brain is not giving direction. Or they have no brain. "I have got so money. How I shall utilize it?" As soon as he gets money, he use it, he uses it for drinking. You may think that you are sufficiently paying to the labor class, worker class, but because he is not guided by brain, he is misspending the money. C. Hennis: We are interested in that, too. We are interested in that, too. We don't want to tell people how to spend their money. We think that this would be... Prabhupāda: You haven't got to say. But because he hasn't got brain, because he is not guided by the brain, he will misspend and create disturbance in the society. C. Hennis: Well, we try to look after that in an indirect way. We don't, as I said, we don't tell people how to spend their money. We don't tell them what to do in their free time. We do try to make sure that they have proper facilities for leisure, that they have proper opportunities, sportsgrounds, swimming pools and so forth, although that's not our primary concern. But what we do try to do, and this will interest you very much, we have a very big program concerned with worker's education. We endeavor to provide programs of education to the worker in teaching him how to understand the problems of modern industry, to understand the problems of management, the people on the other side of the table, of the bargaining table; to understand how to read a balance sheet, for example, in a company, or understand what are the problems that face the management as distinct from the workers in a firm; to understand of the basic rudiments of economics and finance and that kind of thing. This is a very highly developed program which is addressed to adult workers. Now, clearly if a man wants to drink, he wants to drink. But we feel... We are not interested in the drink particularly, except in that it represents a hazard of work. When it represents a hazard at work, and it may be dangerous to the man in his occupation. There, of course, we are interested in it. We try to limit it in such ways as it is possible to limit it. Yogeśvara: This is a man's story, if I may mention in this connection. Rūpānuga Mahārāja, one of our students, before joining the movement was a social worker. And he told me once a story about a particular case of a woman who was in a very destitute position. Her husband was in the hospital, she had five children, and one was... So many problems were there. And Rūpānuga was going and giving her her weekly money from the government, welfare check. And one day he came unexpectedly because part of his job was to see how they were using the money. And he found her there in her apartment with a strange man and drugs and alcohol on the floors and the children running naked, and he was obliged to stop giving her the money. Simply because there had been no proper use of it, there was no point in giving it. It was not doing her any good. To improve her situation superficially wasn't improving the situation at all. Prabhupāda: You understand that? C. Hennis: Yes. Well, of course it's only by a long term of general program of cultural improvement that you can hope to overcome that kind of problem. On the other hand, it would be, I think, wrong to argue from that experience that the provision of welfare benefits to all people who are destitute should be stopped, you see. It is true that... Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to say that. C. Hennis: It's true these are abused, but the fact that a good thing is abused doesn't turn it into a bad thing. Prabhupāda: No that is not the point. Point is that everyone should be guided by the brain. Therefore the brain must be maintained. That is our point. C. Hennis: Well, I would say, to the extent that it has a bearing on improving a man's position in his job, improving his skills at work, and improving his ability to represent his fellowman in trade unions and that kind of thing, we are concerned with it. We are concerned with generally improving his general culture, his general education, and in particular his education as a worker in relation to industrial and trade union life in general. We hope that by this means a man will improve his status, and by improving his status, he will have other things to think about than just getting drunk. So that's the... Yogeśvara: We find that in our society, all of our men, in whatever particular capacity of work they have, are now hundred times more productive than they were before they came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness because now they have found peace of self, and therefore they are in a better position to execute their prescribed duties successfully. C. Hennis: Are you saying that they do more work? Yogeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: No. Do work intelligently. Not that to be very hard*-working like ass, without any intelligence. Just like ass is the most hard-working animal, but it has no intelligence. You see? So we don't want that. We want working with intelligence. That is difference. C. Hennis: Well, as I said, to that extent we do try to improve a man's understanding, a man's understanding of the world, and I agree it's the developed world, the industrialized world, and the... Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is "I have got money. Now let me drink," that's all. There must be... C. Hennis: First of all, you can't force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can't force a man to use his brains. Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is... The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy. Yogeśvara: That is our movement. C. Hennis: I think that that's a... Prabhupāda: That is our movement. C. Hennis: ...a valid... That's a valid point, because it has always been found in every society that there is a need for a priestly class or a class of philosophical leaders of one kind or another. And the fact of this is recognized in the whole of the world society. I think not only in the West, but in the East, too, there's a need for the religious... *Prabhupāda: Now the so*-called, the priestly society, priestly society, they are amending the Biblical injunction according to their whims. Just like in the Bible, the injunction is, "Thou shalt not kill." But the priestly class and all classes, they are simply killing. So how they can guide? They are keeping regular slaughterhouse for killing. So how they can guide? I have asked so many Christian gentlemen, including priests that "Your injunction is that 'Thou shalt not kill.' That is Lord Jesus Christ's order. Why you are violating this?" They give me vague answers. Directly it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." And the whole world is simply killing poor animals, and keeping up-to-date slaughterhouse. C. Hennis: Well, I suppose they are adopting the principle that you yourself advocated just now. You said that the proper society is one which is... Prabhupāda: That means lacking brain, lacking brain, lacking brain. C. Hennis: But the whole world apart from the human beings, the animal world is entirely composed of beings that eat one another. The only beings that are never eaten are whales and elephants. All the others are eaten by some bigger animal, and I suppose that the justification that they have for maintaining slaughterhouses is that it is just a cleaner way of killing than for a lion to jump on the back of an antelope. Prabhupāda: What is that? What is the supposed... C. Hennis: It's just a cleaner way of killing. Yogeśvara: It is the natural order, that all animals... There are many species of animals that eat flesh, and that man is simply following the natural order. Prabhupāda: Natural means, that means he should become animal. Like, he should imitate like the animal. That is man's progress, do you mean to say? C. Hennis: Well, that's no doubt the rationale that they use. Prabhupāda: I understand your point. That we also say, that any living entity has to live by eating another living entity. That is natural. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. It is said in the Vedic literature that one living entity is the food for another living entity. C. Hennis: That's true. Prabhupāda: Just hear me. But when you come to the form of human being, you should have discrimination. If you have no discrimination, simply you live like animal, then where is the difference? My only point is the lack of brain. Human being, he has been given by nature... They are also life, the fruits, the vegetables, the food grains, the milk, the sugar, they have got enough food value, and the human being should be satisfied within this group. Why they should maintain slaughterhouse, and do not think that they are not sinful, and still they want to be happy without caring for God? That is lack of brain. C. Hennis: My organization is not directly concerned with giving people brains. Prabhupāda: No, your organization may not be directly concerned, but the human society, if it is brainless, however organization you may make, it will never become happy. That is my point. C. Hennis: It is concerned with taking away the obstacles which prevent people from attaining brain. Yogeśvara: This is the obstacle. Prabhupāda: No. C. Hennis: One of the obstacles is just plain poverty. One of the obstacles is overwork. Prabhupāda: No, no. A human being should be considerate. Everyone has got religion. Either he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. There must be discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities. Human being should be engaged for pious activities, not for sinful activities. That is human society. If the human being does not discriminate what is pious activities and what is sinful activity, that means lack of brain. He has no brain. He is no better than the animals. Yogeśvara: Perhaps to make it clear for you, one of the natural results of this system is that a man that might be considered today impoverished, as you were mentioning for example some of the problems, a poor man, by our standards, is not necessarily poor if he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. For example, in the Vedic culture, we are learning that a man is considered to be wealthy if he simply has a small patch of land and a cow and God consciousness. Because his God consciousness will lead him to be satisfied by growing his own foods, taking milk from the cow. This is wealth, according to Vedic standards. *Prabhupāda: Therefore cow is specially recommended, go*-rakṣya, because very important animal to the society. If those who are meat-eaters, they can eat the hogs and dogs, they can eat. The Vedic injunction is not prohibiting them. If you actually... Actually, a human being does not require to eat meat. He has got many other substitutes. But still, if he wants to eat, let him eat the less important animals. Just like dog, hog. From the social point of view it has no utility. But why killing cows? It is delivering such a nice nutritious food, milk. Not only milk. According to Vedic system, the cow is so important, even the urine, even the stool, of cow is important. C. Hennis: Yes. Prabhupāda: So such an important... And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain? C. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities... Prabhupāda: They have no such distinction. There is no such distinction. C. Hennis: You have to establish first of all a... *Prabhupāda: No, it is already there. It is already there. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Those who are interested in producing means of living, or foodstuff, in the society, say, the mercantile, the agriculturist, they should give protection to the cows. That is very essential, that milk is so important thing. If you get... Now, we have, in your western country, we have introduced such ideas in West Virginia. We have started one community project where we are keeping cows also. The cows are giving more milk than in other farm. They are so jubilant. Even up to eighty pounds milk, they are giving, because they know that "These people will not kill me." They know it. They are very happy. We don't kill their calves. In other farms, as soon as the calf is there, in front of the mother they are killed. You see? So if these things go on without any brain, without any intelligence, you may make hundreds of organization, the society will never be happy. This is our verdict. Yogeśvara: Your point was that the people need to be taught what is sin and what is pious activities? C. Hennis: Well, we can't be accused of engaging in sinful activities when they don't think that what they are doing is sinful. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore, if they have no knowledge what is sinful, simply by instruction, "Don't do something sinful," so what is the use? They must know. We give in the beginning, in our society, "These are are sinful activities." What is that? Meat*-eating, sinful activity. And gambling, illicit sex, and intoxication. You must give it up. All these European and American boys, they were habituated to all these things from the very birth. They did not know they are sinful. But since they have come to me, I have said, "These things are sinful." They have given up. And just compare with their character, with their behavior... [break] C. Hennis: I think that there, in your whole philosophy, there must be a very large number of points of coincidence with the more materialist activities that we engage in. But, well, they're just trying to give people a fair share of the material things of life, proper wages, decent houses, decent opportunities for feeling and for leisure. Yogeśvara: All that must be there, but without proper instructions simultaneously as to what is the goal of life... C. Hennis: Yes, but I don't think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. I don't think that... At least, you can't expect an international organization to indoctrinate people on the national level. I'm sure that the... Prabhupāda: No, it is not national. It should be international. Just like everyone... United Nation, it is meant for international activity. Our only proposition is that as the international organization, United Nations, they should keep a class of men who should act as brain. Then it will be all right. Without brain, simply legs and hands working, no direction, that is not very good. C. Hennis: I think you'd have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don't go... Prabhupāda: We can see provided we get the chance. C. Hennis: I don't consider myself to be a leader of mankind. I am very much a servant of mankind with a view to helping people to reduce the differences between them, with a view to helping people to understand one another better. In my own particular branch in which I'm concerned we endeavor to make people understand one another in the manner of an interpreter, if you like, to show, to allow people to speak and understand with one another, and to enable them to comprehend each other's problems and understand... Prabhupāda: No. If there is actual brain, there is no problem. Just like if I have got good brain... I want to take this thing in my pocket. But if I have got brain, "No, this will be stealing," then I can refrain from it. But if I think that "It is lying here. I can take," what is that? C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders of government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labor Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor... Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If... You can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point. C. Hennis: Yes, but there some people are better endowed with brains than others. Some people haven't got brains or not much brains. Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That's the point. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain... This is the work of the first*-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, any office, "These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for..." Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nations, such a great. This was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization. C. Hennis: That's true. That's true. Prabhupāda: That is my point. C. Hennis: That's true. They're servants of the membership and the membership is the international..., of the states, of the world. And if the governments of the states of the world, if Mr. Giscard d'Estaing, Mr. Nixon and Mr. Wilson and all the others don't have brain, then I'm afraid that the United Nations can do nothing to give them brains. There has to be... We are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand their problems. Prabhupāda: Let them understand. At least, let them understand what they should do, what they should not do. This much... C. Hennis: This we do try to do to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We do try to do it. But of course we can't adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can in the manner of a good servant and the manner of a good steward to try and help the leaders along the right path and right direction. Your Divine Grace, I thank you very much indeed for this audience. It's been very kind of you. Prabhupāda: I may be a madman. I have talked so many things and you say all right. C. Hennis: It's been very splendid, and I thank you very much indeed for giving me... Prabhupāda: (laughing) But I am very much, I mean, strict on this point, that if the society does not know what is sinful and what is pious, it is all useless. C. Hennis: Well, let's hope that they'll be a... Prabhupāda: It can be a decoration. That we describe, "The decoration of the dead body." Anyone who has no brain, lost all brain, it is a dead body. So a dead body you can decorate to your full satisfaction, but what is the use of decorating a dead body? C. Hennis: Well, thank you very much again. It's very kind of you. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Please sit down for a moment. C. Hennis: I have to go because I have a... Yogeśvara: If you can wait just two minutes. One tradition is that we always offer our guests prasādam, foodstuffs that we prepared. C. Hennis: Thank you very much. But I have to go very shortly. I have to... Yogeśvara: Well perhaps I should give him downstairs. Prabhupāda: No, no. Give him. C. Hennis: May I, may I? Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. (Mr. Hennis goes out) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It's true what you say Prabhupāda. They come and they put forward their idea and if you don't like it, well, "Oh!" but if you like, "Oh, very good man." They have their own ideas. Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big..., but where is it people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nations? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something. That's all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities. Yogeśvara: He admitted it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milk-mother. And bull is producing food*-he is father. And they are being killed? Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility. Regularly they are maintaining slaughterhouse especially for the cows and bulls. Why don't you slaughter the dogs and hogs and eat if you are meat-eater? There are many meat-eaters who eat dogs. Dog is useless. You can eat. Hog is also useless. They are eating also dog and hog, everything, whatever they... Yogeśvara: His point was that they can... He was thinking that man has the capacity for resolving his own problems. Simply we have to come together and organize. Prabhupāda: That is United Organization. Why do they not think all these things? Yogeśvara: There is no direction. *Prabhupāda: No direction. There is no brain. Therefore for the last, why last? Twenty years? Before that, in our younger days, the League of Nation, that was formulated in 1918, '19. So they are trying to unite the whole nation under different names from '18, apart from other year. So for the more than fifty*-five, sixty years, they are all good brains of the nation. What they have done? That means they have no brain. The problems are increasing. Instead of decreasing the problems, they are increasing. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You used the example that in the United States... Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation, there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs, my home, your home, fighting. That's all. Although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now, in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing, partyism. So where is the brain? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight... Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: I remember on a walk in Vṛndāvana, Your Divine Grace said that there should be no politics in our society because a Vaiṣṇava means one who wants to help others become happy. Prabhupāda: Now politics is coming in. As soon as we are getting money, the politics coming. That is a great concern. Yogeśvara: What will happen to our temples in the cities? Will we keep them? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: Our temples. These big, big temples we have now. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have to go everywhere. Wherever there is opportunity to instruct about this spiritual subject matter, we must go there. We should not have such discrimination, that city should be neglected. No. Why? They are also human being. They are misled. So we have to give them a little instruction. Everywhere. In cities there is possibility. Whatever we have collected, our men, that is from city, not from the village. So why should we neglect city? Where is the question? [break] All hobgoblin, the last word which I said, "dressing the dead body, decorating the dead body." The society has no brain; that means dead body. When a man's brain is gone, he is dead body, maybe he is living. He has no use. Just like a madman. He has got life, but what is the use of that life? It is already dead. Because his brain is deranged. Is it not? So if the brain is lost, brain is deranged, therefore it is dead body. That is the distinction between living body and dead body. A living man has got brain. He can work with his brain. And the dead bod... The body is there. Why call it dead? Because brain is not working. Brain is dead. That is the difference. Although the hand is there. The dead man has also hand. The leg is there. The dead man has also leg. But why the hand is leg? Because the brain is dead. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is it that the śūdra class of men should be trained that they are serving either God or a God conscious leader, or should they be educated to feel that their work is for God. Prabhupāda: Yes, provided you are for God. They will see and learn. If you simply teach them, you do not do anything, then how they will learn? Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. When they actually see that "These men are dedicated to God," then they'll do whatever you wish. Yogeśvara: They are making better organizations, but they are not giving any example to the people. *Prabhupāda: Everyone is concocting some ideas, and they are going on as different organization. That's all. No standard idea. The standard idea is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that cows should be given protection, go-rakṣya. Who is following this? Everyone is making plan how to kill cows in a more scientific way. This is going on. Who is taking the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā? Nobody is taking. Even in India where Bhagavad-gītā is originally, these rascals also not taking. And they have become so brainless. Therefore the whole human society is a dead society. And the dead society's dressing, decorating, is useless waste of time. That's all. Their education, their advancement... He has no brain. What is the use of education? That is said by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that snake is a snake. Do you think a snake decorated with a jewel on the hood is gentleman? Similarly, a man without brain, so-called education, is just like a jewel on the head of a serpent. Kim asau na bhayaṅkara. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita asks "Whether a snake with jewel on the head is not fearful? He is as much fearful as the other snake without the jewel." Similarly, if a human being has no brain, with his so-called education or no education, it is as good. The education has no value. He does not know what is good work, what is bad work, what is my aim of life, what is this body, what is the soul? If these things he does not know, then what is the value of his education? So the man is not satisfied? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He was in a hurry to get out. Yogeśvara: Oh, yes. He asked me to excuse him to you. He had a meeting to go to. *Prabhupāda: I would say "If he has no brain, what is the use of going to a meeting?" (laughter) Our only... Śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. The men are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses. What they will do? Meeting of the dogs, hogs, camels and asses will be any beneficial to the society? We are very pessimistic, and our conclusion, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is dogs, hogs, camels, asses, that's all. No brain, animal. Animal has got brain: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life. So these people, they have got brain for that purposes only. That is animal life. Actually, they do not know what is the aim of life, why people should be educated, why human society should be organized. They do not know. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Enamored by these big, big buildings. That's all. "Oh, they are so advanced." And naturally, the common man comes to the European or American city, he says, "Oh, Americans are very rich." "Rich" means they have piled up stones and bricks, that's all. This is their richness. What is there in the richness here? But people are common men. They think that this piling of bricks and stone is like real civilization. What do you think? Is that real civilization? Yogeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Piling of bricks and stones? Heaps of stones and bricks? That is emblem of civilization? They have seen. In Rome they have seen. They also piled like that. Now they have gone. Where they have gone? Why they left? Why they were obliged to leave? That nobody is questioning. And if he has got a different body, if he is living in that house as cats and dogs and rats and ants, then what benefit he has derived? There is possibility. If you have got an attraction for the body, for your house, but you are not going to get a human body, then you'll have to take your birth in that place, as tree, as plant, as live as rat or cat or ant. You have to live. Nature will give you advantage. But you must get the body according to your karma. That you cannot violate. Where is this science discussed? As soon as we shall speak gentleman like them, they will say, "I have got meeting." Yogeśvara: Yes, "I must leave." Prabhupāda: Ah, "I must leave." When we come to real proposition, immediately they want to leave. This is their brain. Yogeśvara: Every time a gentleman like that comes or a man like that comes and we get too close to the point about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they seem to become afraid. *Prabhupāda: No, as soon as we raise this question, killing, he became sorry. He has no answer. Therefore he wants to be out, evade. "Why Christians are killing?" Anyone I raise this question, immediately he becomes stopped, mum, dumb. That's all. Christian community, there are so many. Practically the majority of the human society, they are Christian. They are the persons who are indulging in killing. And where is Christian? Judging from the Ten Commandments, there is not a single Christian, not a single, and still, they are going, the Pope, the cardinal, the priest, the church. All simply show*-bottles, that's all. There is no life. And therefore it is dwindling. Practically... Just like our Los Angeles was Christian Church. Nobody was coming. Therefore it was sold. And now there is no place to accommodate devotees. Life is lost in Christian religion. Nobody is interested, no more. And within a few years, it will be lost. It is lost in... I have seen in England. Nobody is going to church. All churches are being closed. How long you will cheat? What is that? Yogeśvara: Juice. Prabhupāda: I have got it. You can distribute it. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, they have the philosophy that, generally when we ask them, that "God created the world for us to enjoy." That is what the Christian generally says, that "The world is made for us to enjoy." Prabhupāda: But enjoy does not mean that you enjoy sinfully. Did God give that document, that "You enjoy as you like, sinfully." Enjoy. There is prescription. You enjoy to the prescription. God says, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mantra 1]. You simply enjoy what is allotted to you. Don't encroach upon other's property. This is God's injunction. You enjoy. As human being, you enjoy life. You have got food grains, fruits, flowers, milk. Enjoy life. Offer to Kṛṣṇa. Enjoy life. Why should you kill animal? That is God's... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. He says patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. Why do you go to kill animals? That is not enjoyment. That means you suffer, therefore you are suffering. You are creating suffering. So this man is at least informed that they have no brain. Yogeśvara: Maybe he will tell them at his meeting. *Prabhupāda: (laughter) But he could not defend that he has got brain, yes. So however these men may declare very, very big, we know that "You have no brain. You are as good as animal." Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: [SB 2.3.19] "These classes of men are no better than the dogs, hogs, camels and asses." Bhāgavata school will not approve of these rascals as human being. They are so strict. If one is not on the platform of God consciousness, he is not human being. He is animal. That's a fact. But we should not hate the animals because our mission is to bring them to the human consciousness. You cannot expect that your audience should be all highly brain. No. Preaching is required because they have no brain. Therefore your duty is to tolerate all difficulties and bring them to the sense of brain. Not that "These people are animals; we shall not mix with them." Then you have no missionary activities. Then you sit down in a place and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then don't open centers. That is also dangerous. If we imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, "Let us all chant and do nothing," then the māyā, the women, they are very expert. They could not conquer over Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but she'll conquer upon you. And become victim. Therefore we have to be active. We cannot imitate Haridāsa. Anyone who has imitated the Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he has fallen down. He has fallen. He must fall down because imitating the highest personality, for which he is not fit. Therefore he's going to fall down. When by preaching, by chanting, we will be expert, then it is possible. So whether Bhagavān is coming or not? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He missed his airplane. Prabhupāda: Huh? Missed his airplane? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Now he is supposed to come very, very soon, in about a half an hour. I think there will be many people this evening. (end) *Room Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Haöha*-yogé -- May 31, 1974, Geneva *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so... M. Roost: I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily. Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. M. Roost: But I want to know from... *Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We... Our Bhagavad*-gītā, there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. The yogis, they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions. Sagarbha-yogī, nirgarbha-yogī (?). So what is your special subject matter of yoga? *M. Roost: I try to make a yoga with understanding from occident... I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma*-yoga. The dynamics and... I don't understand we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to... Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen? M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different type meditation. Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. They come to the heart; *then ultimately, to the brahma*-randhra. This practice? *M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī*-yoga, but very, very temperate, moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma. It's more a question of conscious of awareness of breathing and... Prabhupāda: Awareness of? M. Roost: Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in... Prabhupāda: Prāṇāyāma, this is prāṇāyāma. M. Roost: And you must have the conscious of your breathing from rodha to ājñā, and ājñā through the Rājadvāra (?) column to mūlādhāra. This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to... *Prabhupāda: That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā, by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life. M. Roost: Is according to...? *Prabhupāda: As the karmīs, they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet, like that. So they are all karmīs. Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs. So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogis, they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi*-brahma, "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That... This bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or dhyāna-yogī, it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti, this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti. So generally, the yogis and the jñānīs, they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti, to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yoga. After advancing, if the yogi gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection. *M. Roost: I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight*-part. *Prabhupāda: Aṣṭāṅga*-yoga, aṣṭāṅga. *M. Roost: Yes, aṣṭāṅga*-yoga. The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice for whom? M. Roost: Yes. Without intention. Satsvarūpa: The Lord, he said. M. Roost: Without personal intention. Prabhupāda: I'll speak. Satsvarūpa: I'm sorry. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice. Intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti. We are not intentionless, but purified intention. M. Roost: And what is your practice? Technically, I think. *Prabhupāda: Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam, to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā. We hear from God personally. M. Roost: But with... Through lecture? Through sound? Prabhupāda: Yes, through sound vibration. M. Roost: And repeat and... *Prabhupāda: Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta*-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So... *M. Roost: It's like japa*-yoga. *Prabhupāda: That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti*-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something or I can know the Supreme by my knowledge. As I am something, I am very important, our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogis, they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different, that "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya, that "I am limited; *I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā*-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva. Call Nitāi. Nitāi: Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya? *Prabhupāda: It is not in Bhagavad*-gītā. Nitāi: In the *Bhāgavatam*? *Prabhupāda: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Nitāi: That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can find out in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. In the Kṛṣṇa Book we find out when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered, I think, first part. Satsvarūpa: This is in English. What would it be? Nitāi: It would be about the fourteenth paragraph. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes. Prabhupāda: Fourteenth paragraph, what is written? Satsvarūpa: Fourteenth is "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa." Nitāi: Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph. *Prabhupāda: Jito 'pi. Jito py asi tais tri*-lokyām. Where we have explained in English. What is the...? Madhya-līlā? *Nitāi: This is Madhya*-līlā, Eighth Chapter. Prabhupāda: You have got? Nitāi: Not here. It's in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, Eighth Chapter we have translated? Nitāi: Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter. Nitāi: Not published yet, no. *Prabhupāda: What is this book, this Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? *Nitāi: That is Ādi*-līlā, not Madhya-līlā. *Prabhupāda: Oh, not Madhya*-līlā. Nitāi: No. Third paragraph, it should begin. Satsvarūpa: The third paragraph of the chapter? *Nitāi: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad*-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor." *Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad*-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma-Purāṇa, there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "Perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No. 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (?). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that 10,000th part of the top of the hair point, is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas, that is taken as Absolute Truth and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, 1/10,000th portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, like that, the vāyu. The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogi. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ. Yes, this is very important. Nitāi: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail." *Prabhupāda: So we are practicing this bhakti*-yoga and teaching others also. M. Roost: And when people are not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to..., when his mind is not prepared to his life what are you doing? How can you educate people to come...? Prabhupāda: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to... M. Roost: Occidental people. Prabhupāda: They are all occidental. M. Roost: Yes, yes, you, but very few people. How do you...? Prabhupāda: Occidental means eastern, er, western? Yes. Nitāi: Western. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said, "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha, live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa... So generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra. But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat*-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible. M. Roost: I am according, but how to understand, how to measure...? *Prabhupāda: This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the swamis, yogis, and... Don't mind. I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very, very, big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you are yogi, if you want siddhi, then you must eat and sleep and accept things-yukta. Yukta means "as it is required, not more than that, not less than that." That is yukta. We don't say that you stop. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there. But married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on... In New York there is a yogi. I do not wish to name his... But in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not? Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogi. Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life? M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way, very strong, with a technique which is a little different as yoga. For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux, like aikido, judo, and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: What is that? M. Roost: It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid of death and is a fast program how to transcend human life, how to transcend la mort. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: To transcend death. M. Roost: How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, kumbha (?), the kumbha, fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple... Prabhupāda: (coughing) Water, little. M. Roost: To make the problem very, very clear and by fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam, (a sword) and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so... We can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to... Prabhupāda: No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice? M. Roost: No, he don't kill, but he makes like he will kill, but he don't kill. Of course not. Prabhupāda: That is another... M. Roost: But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way, very interesting. But... *Prabhupāda: That is automatically taught in bhakti*-yoga. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. It is said, "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga. But if the master is such a rascal that if he asks the disciple that "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga, first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi, like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama. M. Roost: Yes, and first is... *Prabhupāda: I know several yogis, so*-called yogis in New York. They are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. They are taking fees and having sex with the disciple and are yogis. Just see. This is going on. Brahmcārī vrate? *Nitāi: Manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac*-cittaḥ: "Always thinking of Me." Viṣṇu-mūrti or Kṛṣṇa-mūrti. Then? *Nitāi: Yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yukta āsīta mat*-paraḥ: "Always thinking of Me." Then? *Nitāi: Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata*-mānasaḥ. Prabhupāda: "In this way one who practices yoga..." *Nitāi: Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa*-paramām. Prabhupāda: "Then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa." *Nitāi: Mat*-saṁsthām adhigacchati. *Prabhupāda: Mat*-saṁsthām. "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then? Nitāi: Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti. Prabhupāda: Ah, nāty aśnataḥ. It is not that you should not eat, abstain, no. Eat very little. So? Nitāi: Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat. *Nitāi: Na cāti*-svapna-śīlasya. Prabhupāda: "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then? *Nitāi: Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. *Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra*-vihārasya. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. (end) Morning Walk -- June 1, 1974, Geneva Bhagavān: So I hope there is still time. Prabhupāda: He is Prime Minister of France? Bhagavān: He just became the Prime Minister of France. Prabhupāda: Hm. Young man? Bhagavān: Forty? [break] (now they are walking) Prabhupāda: Still they are doing this. You see? Padaṁ padam means every step. There are some fruits in this tree? No. Oh, here is eucalyptus? No. [break] ...you can by children, their living. There is only one offspring. (end) Morning Walk -- June 2, 1974, Geneva *Prabhupāda: ...vayasa*-tīrtham. And the swan is considered to be the highest of the birds. Therefore it is called paramahaṁsa. Example is given to the haṁsa. Haṁsa means swan. Supreme haṁsa... French artists are famous all over the world. What is that famous artist's name? Yogeśvara: Claude Monet? Bhagavān: Picasso. Yogeśvara: No, he's Spanish. Devotee: Leonardo da Vinci. Yogeśvara: He's Italian. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is said that he was very poor man. So he painted in a fruitshop grapes. Devotees: Cezanne. *Prabhupāda: Ah. So the crows came to pick up the grapes, and the king was passing, he picked up, "Oh, who is that artist?" He became rich man in association. No, I have seen in that hall. So first*-class picture. I have never seen such nice picture. Exactly life. [break] Yogeśvara: ...the book glorifying the Russian ideals, he is thrown out of the country. Prabhupāda: Just see. It is a country... People are not bad. I have seen. They are very nice. The government, the rascals, a few men, who are controlling the government, they are all rogues and thieves. The same thing in India. Everywhere mass population, they are innocent. These rascals made them..., misleading. In Russia I have seen. The mass people, they are very nice. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They are innocent. In India also. The Pakistan happened due to these politicians. The Hindus, Muslims, they are innocent. They don't fight. These politicians engaged them to fight artificially for their political ambition. The wars also declared nowadays, on account of the rascal politicians. The people do not want it. [break] ...to the Indian railway strike, have you got any news? Bhagavān: It ceased the other day. Karandhara: They made some agreement with the union. Prabhupāda: Government made agreement. Karandhara: Yeah, they made some compromise with the union. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It seems that the government had arrested all of the union leaders, and this paralyzed the worker's appeal. So the workers finally agreed to go back. They put many thousands of union leaders into jail. Prabhupāda: It was right. [break] Yogeśvara: ...did in such a way that crops can be grown anywhere? Can crops be grown anywhere in the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. If it does not grow, then what is nature's arrangement? Yogeśvara: Well, for example, there are some parts in India that are too dry to cultivate the ground. *Prabhupāda: Dry means there is no rain. If natures like, there can be profuse rain. That is nature's arrangement. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Parjanyāt. You must have sufficient rain. And for having sufficient rain, you must execute yajña. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. So these people are now becoming rascals. They are not performing yajñas. They are opening slaughterhouse. How there will be rain? Instead of performing yajñas, they are opening big, big slaughterhouse. Bhagavān: I think now in many parts of the world the desert is increasing. Prabhupāda: Yes, desert will increase. Yogeśvara: So under the present conditions, it's necessary to transport food. At least, for the time being, we don't have the possibility of growing food anywhere and everywhere. So some transportation of food is required. Prabhupāda: Where you get for transportation if there is no grain? If you say there is no hope of producing food grain, then where is the chance of transportation? Yogeśvara: Well, in some areas there is. *Prabhupāda: In somewhere. If somewhere it is produced, then other place also it can be produced. You perform yajña, saṅkīrtana*-yajña. You will get enough food. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ, annād bhavanti bhutānī [Bg. 3.14]. So in Switzerland there are many slaughterhouses also? Many? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Some time ago I read in the papers that they had so much milk and so much butter that the government proposal was kill the cows. Prabhupāda: Kill all the animals. Oh, just see. They will not give to others. Bhagavān: The farmers were complaining that their prices weren't competitive cause there was so much milk. Prabhupāda: The price is the standard, not that goods are required. They want money for purchasing wine. This is the difficulty. They are not satisfied simply by eating sufficient. They want money for woman and wine. This is their philosophy. Bhagavān: In the United States that same problem was there, that the prices were all going up. Everything was having inflation. Prabhupāda: So if they had sense, they should have exported where there is necessity of this milk, butter, grain. Then the world will be happy. Yogeśvara: That was my question. If there is necessity for exporting, then there is necessity for maintaining ships and trains and means of communication, employing workers, electrical dynamos for running... Prabhupāda: No, point is if in one place you can produce food grains, butter and milk, why not other place? That is my point. The land is everywhere the same. If one place... Now here, in Europe and America, there is enough production because the population is less. So the whole America is bigger than India, at least four times. And the population is not even half. What is the population whole America? Bhagavān: 200,000,000. Prabhupāda: And India? Bhagavān: About 600,000,000. Prabhupāda: Just see. And the land is four times more than India, at least. Therefore you find excess. You see? Otherwise, India is also producing. No, India is not producing. It is not utilizing all the land. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: If the people here are so sinful, how is it that they have so many nice facilities? It will go away soon, very soon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. As they increase their sinful activities, these facilities will be taken away. Therefore we propose that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and we are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Just cooperate in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the whole world will be happy. This is our proposal. Why do you think it is American, it is Swiss, it is Indian? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Let us become obedient to Kṛṣṇa, and because we are sons of Kṛṣṇa, let us enjoy the property of Kṛṣṇa. Immediately there will be happiness. I have several times said that the, still the whole world can produce so much grains and foodstuff, ten times of the population can be fed, ten times. In Africa, in Australia, and even in America, so much, I means, prospect of producing food. But they will not cooperate. They will kill the animal. They will throw the grain to the sea, and claim, "It is my land. It is my property." Bhagavān: Then they complain about scarcity. Prabhupāda: For money. So rascal civilization is going on. Therefore I challenged that man, "Where is your brain?" There is no brain. You remember that? Yogeśvara: From the International Labor Organization. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no brain. Karandhara: Prabhupāda, in a recent study by U.S. Agricultural officials, they found that it is really uneconomical to eat meat. It takes so much energy and man hours to raise and transport and slaughter the cows that it makes it very wasteful. *Prabhupāda: Wasteful, yes. Therefore I say they have no brain. All, they are rascals. Rascal leaders. A little labor in agriculture will be sufficient to produce the family's food stock for the whole year. You can stock. You work only three months, and you get sufficient food for your whole family. And less nine months, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals will not do that. They will work hard like ass simply for eating. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya*-prītaya āpṛṇoti [SB 5.5.4]. They will not accept easy life. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: In that agricultural report it said that if they were to eat all the grains that they give to the cows and animals, they could get twenty times more calories than by eating meat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Wrong civilization, rascal civilization. And this is due to this rascaldom, nationalism, "This is my land." And at any moment he will be kicked out. Still, he claims, "It is my land." Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is the illusion. Nothing belongs to him; *still he is fighting, "This is mine. This is mine." "I" and "mine." Identifying himself with this body, "I", and wrongly conceiving that "This is mine." This is the basic principle of wrong civilization. Both things are... Nothing belongs to him. Suppose I have come here in Switzerland. If I remain here for one month and I claim, "Oh, this is mine," what is this? So similarly, I come as guest. Everyone comes as guest in the womb of his mother and lives here for fifty years. He is claiming, "It is mine." When, when, when it became yours? The land was long, long time before your birth. How it became yours? But they have no sense. "It is mine." "Fight." "My land, my nation, my family, my society." In this way, wasting time. These things have been introduced by these western mlecchas. In the Vedic civilization there is no such thing as nationalism. You won't find. Have you seen in the Bhagavad*-gītā any word, "nationalism?" No such thing. This is the original ideas of the tribes. In the jungle there is... Just like in Africa there are still groups of tribes. This is most crude idea of civilization, nationalism. This is tribalized. It is nothing but development of just tribalism. And eating also the same. They are not advanced in civilization. This nationalism is another form of tribalism, that's all. Bhagavān: They are actually just cannibals because they maintain themselves on eating the cow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: They think it's so horrible to eat another person, but... *Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are suffering. Therefore you'll find, in the recent history, every twenty*-five years there is a big war, slaughter, mass slaughtering of the people. How nature will tolerate? Now India has learned, imitated the western countries. Now there is war between India and Pakistan. Otherwise there was no such thing. During two wars between the Pakistan and Hindustan, unnecessarily, without any profit, millions of people were killed. Karandhara: Just recently India exploded an atomic bomb, and now Pakistan is hurrying to get an atomic bomb also. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The government promised it would be only for peaceful purposes. *Prabhupāda: No, what do they know about peaceful conditions. They are all rascals. They do not know what is peaceful condition. Actually peaceful condition is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Satsvarūpa: Embracing. Men and women and child, too. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yogeśvara(?): Merged. Prabhupāda: Merged into one. (laughter) Brahman realization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: We can turn back now. Prabhupāda: Hm. This way or that way? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: This way is all right. Prabhupāda: Very nice park. *Yogeśvara: In the ancient tribal system, there was some form of religiosity. There was some form of worship of God. The so*-called modern civilization doesn't even maintain that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Their developed consciousness is being used for sense gratification. That's all. They have taken up, sense gratification is the highest aim of life. Hedonism. What is that hedonism? Karandhara: Hedonism means to eat, sleep and be merry. Prabhupāda: That's all. Yogeśvara: When I was in school, I read that when the British went to Africa to colonize, the first thing they did... In the north there was a tribe called the Ashanti tribe. And the symbol of religion was an axe. Whoever possessed that axe was a leader. So the first thing they did was to import thousands and thousands of axes and they distributed them to everyone. In this way, they destroyed the religious sentiment and then introduced their own system. Prabhupāda: Who first started this colonization? Britishers or the Spaniards? Yogeśvara: It was a Britisher. Karandhara: Spaniards were, I think Portuguese. Prabhupāda: Portuguese. Because they had very small land. Karandhara: They were navigators. Prabhupāda: So find out some place. Bhagavān: The boy didn't realize the potency of your answer last night. He was asking how to fight fascism, and you were saying by chanting and dancing. So factually, by setting the example is the greatest way to fight all these maladies. Prabhupāda: Māyā. Māyā. Yes, we are fighting with this Māyic civilization. Bhagavān: Because they can fight with guns, but afterwards neither one of them knows how to set an exemplary life. So they just keep fighting with guns. Prabhupāda: With gun or without, gun, you will die. The fascist will die and the other party also will die. Gun or without gun, he cannot exist. But our fight is to stop death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Our fight is for this purpose, no more death. This is real fight. Your, what is your fight? You may save yourself for two years or three years or ten years, but you have to die. You have no such program not to die. But here is a program, no more death. Yogeśvara: They have one program. They are freezing bodies. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is another nonsense. Yogeśvara: Then they will defrost them in fifty or one hundred years. Prabhupāda: All future programs. Nitāi: They have never done that, have they? Yogeśvara: Well, there are people in the refrigerator now. There are people who have voluntarily put themselves in a big block of ice. They were told before they went inside that they would be defrosted in about fifty years. Prabhupāda: Then what he will do? (laughing) Bhagavān: They should take a few out now and see if it worked. Prabhupāda: No, that can be done. The yogic process. It is called kumbhaka. Samādhi. You stop your breathing, and you can keep yourself for thousands of years. That is the kumbhaka. But this art is known by the frogs also. Yogeśvara: By the frogs? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Automatically... There was news that in the coal mine all of a sudden a frog came out and it was estimated that... Because the coal is formed by the ruins. So when there was ruins, at least ten thousand years ago, during the ruins, the frog was encaged. And it formed coal. Still he was living. That means he lived at least for ten thousand years. So Brahmā lives for ten millions of years. So what is the... They are also condemned. Ā*-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartinaḥ [Bg. 8.16]. Kṛṣṇa says, "What is the use of going to Brahma-loka. Even if you live for millions of years, you will have to die." Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama: [Bg. 15.6] "But if you come to Me, you will never have to die." Our struggle is for that purpose. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām [Bg. 7.23]. for these things, those who are trying, they are less intelligent. Bhagavān: (about passerby) He's got one arm, and he's running to keep healthy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) In the morning they begin fishing, this walking, and golfing, no engagement. These poor fellows, they have been not informed that there is better engagement. They do not know. This is their civilization. And here, Kṛṣṇa conscious young men, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. They appreciate the Kṛṣṇa conscious boys. "Bright faces," they say. The priests and the common gentlemen, they say, and they inquire, "Are you American?" They see it. Come and see in our Los Angeles temple, in every temple, how these younger boys and girls are sitting so peacefully, look so nice. Is it not? A year ago, all hellish. Hellish. The same boys, the same girls. That's a fact. Just the counterpart of our society is the hippies*-frustrated, all disappointed, mad. They should come forward now to cooperate with this movement. The other day one somebody came to solve the problems of the hippies. Yogeśvara: Oh, in Rome? Desmond O'Grady? Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as we suggested chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, he left. Yogeśvara: The social worker. Prabhupāda: Yes, Yogeśvara: With the long hair. Prabhupāda: Ah ha. So, he did not like the idea? Yogeśvara: He didn't think it was very practical. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He thinks it works but not all the time. He thinks it works for some people, but not for all people. Prabhupāda: And all people... Any good thing, it is meant for some people, not for all people. But if there is an ideal class of men, the others will follow. Jewel. Jewel is always costly. Still everyone aspires, "If I get a jewel." That is wanted. Not that everybody can possess jewel, but still, everybody will appreciate jewel. Yogeśvara: There are a lot of people who don't accept it because they think, "Maybe it is another imitation jewel. Maybe I'll get cheated again." Prabhupāda: So why don't you become once more cheated? You have been cheated so many times. Why not try this also? If that is his argument, that means you have been cheated so many times. So why not once more, and see whether it is cheating or reality? That sense will not come. "Oh, I have been cheated so many times. Therefore I shall not take." So why not become once more cheated and see the value? The example, as I say, sometimes. (Bengali) ...that he lost his utensils several times. The thief stole it. Therefore he promised, "Now I shall take my food on the ground. I shall not purchase any more utensils." What is...? This is bathing place or...? Yogeśvara: This is where they go water skiing. Prabhupāda: Water skiing? Yogeśvara: Yes. They stand on two pieces of wood and they hold on to a rope, and a fast boat pulls them along the water, like that. Prabhupāda: Oh. Like, what you have? Surfer? Surfer? Karandhara: Surfing. Yeah, similar. Prabhupāda: Surfing. Surfing or suffering? (laughter) Unnecessarily, whole day and night they are... This is also another example of māyā. He is actually suffering, but he's thinking, enjoying. It always remains calm and quiet? There is no waves? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Sometimes. In the morning it's very calm. Prabhupāda: But there cannot be any big waves. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: No. Not like ocean. [break] Bhagavān: They are importing dogs in India now, I think. Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhagavān: European dogs. Prabhupāda: (laughing) First of all, they were importing European masters, and now they are importing dogs. Now they will have to import European brāhmaṇas. Yes. Because in India all the brāhmaṇas are now finished. So for their ritualistic ceremony they will have to import from Europe, America. Long ago... Long ago, not long ago, about four, five years ago, I wrote this fact. [break] ...the communists, as they making, that the state is the proprietor of everything, so what is the harm of accepting God as the proprietor of everything? What is the harm? He is giving up his own right. The state is the proprietor. So why not make "God is the proprietor"? What is the harm? And actually, God is the proprietor. Now, this lake, it is not made by the state. It is made by God. They are claiming this is Swiss lake. What is that? Yogeśvara: Geneva lake. Prabhupāda: Geneva lake. And a few steps forward, a French lake. So either to the French or Geneva, it does not belong. It belongs to God. He's a fool. Why don't you say, "God's lake"? Yogeśvara: We could propose them that they change the name, but I think they might be afraid it would drive away the tourists. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. (end) Morning Walk -- June 3, 1974, Geneva Prabhupāda: ...the moon planet, there is no rainfall? Karandhara: No, according to scientists there is no (indistinct) of rainfall on the moon. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: It's very hot and very cold. Yogeśvara: Have they made another mistake? Prabhupāda: And there is no water also. Karandhara: No. Bhagavān: No, water. Yogeśvara: They say that the moon is covered by a very thick layer of dust. Prabhupāda: But according to our śāstra, moon is one of the heavenly planets. [break] ...is moon in any way? Because there is no water? Karandhara: They say that if they want to set up some houses there, they have to, everything has to be brought there. There's nothing there to use. Prabhupāda: How the house will be brought there? Karandhara: Well, they plan on in the future building stations and... Prabhupāda: The water has to be taken from the station? Karandhara: Yes. Air, water, everything has to be taken. Prabhupāda: Oh. And still they must go there. And we are proposing another planet, Vaikuṇṭha planet. They are not willing to go there. Yogeśvara: They have found one use for all this space travel. They've decided to... They've experimented grounding lenses, grinding lenses in outer space since there's less dust. They can grind lenses that are more perfect. Prabhupāda: Hm. Spectacle glass. Good advantage. Bhagavān: There's another purpose. Instead of testing bombs on the earth, they are trying to test bombs on the moon. Prabhupāda: *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There's a park over there. It's very nice to go to. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The entrance is a little further down the road. Bhagavān: Over here Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Look up in the sky here and you can see all the different planets and stars. Can you also look up into the sky, the brahmajyoti, and see all the different Vaikuṇṭha planets? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The space is three*-fourths there. Here the space is one fourth. In one-fourth space there are unlimited number of universes, ananta-koṭi. This material world is situated in a one-fourth space, and three-fourths space, in the spiritual world. Just imagine how big it is. There the Vaikuṇṭha planets, each planet is as big as the universe, so big. There are aeroplanes also. It is described in the Second Canto of Bhāgavatam. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: When one looks up towards Goloka Vṛndāvana. Just as the... There's a description in Brahma-saṁhitā of Goloka Vṛndāvana with the lotus petals, corolla of lotus petals. Prabhupāda: No. Lotus... These Vaikuṇṭhas are like lotus petals, and the Kṛṣṇaloka is the middle portion, whorl of the lotus. This way? (some talking in background, French) [break] Prabhupāda: So their body and your body has nothing to do individually. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...living entities. As soon as there is opportunity, they are coming up. [break] ...as have got experience within this planet there is water. And the watermelons, they grow very nicely in the desert. And you see, within the watermelon, there is water. So wherefrom this water is coming? Hm? Wherefrom the water is coming. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The Bhagavad-gītā says that the world is made up of eight energies: earth, air, water, fire, ether... *Prabhupāda: No, no. That Bhagavad*-gītā says. I am talking you, you are scientist. Wherefrom the watermelon water comes, and they are grown in the desert? Karandhara: Well, they say the watermelon has an extensive root system which extracts the water from the... Prabhupāda: So that means there is water. Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So how you can say there is no water in the moon planet? Karandhara: Well, they can take samples in the desert and find out if there is certain degree of moisture in the soil. They have taken the same samples on the moon and say that there is no moisture. Prabhupāda: So why the moon planet is bereft of? Material, anything material, it is combination of earth, water, fire, air, ether. Anything material. It is a combination. Karandhara: Well, there are probably very minute quantities of moisture on the moon. But they say nothing significant, nothing suitable for agriculture. Yogeśvara: There are no plants growing on the moon. In the desert we find some plants, but they have not found any vegetation on the moon. Prabhupāda: That means they have not gone thoroughly. One portion of it. Karandhara: Well, they have scanners on these satellites which pick up vegetation or life. From hundreds miles away, it will show up on a screen. And they sent it all around the moon, and it hasn't shown any indication of any organic matter or life. They can send this satellite up around the earth planet and they can locate fields of corn, fields of wheat, from hundreds of miles away, just by the way it shows up on these different electronic devices. [break] Prabhupāda: Take one of these... [break] Yogeśvara: The vegetables, made of different elements. [break] ...and they say they found indications of elements that were existing at the time of creation that went into the making of the living entities... (end) Room Conversation with Biochemist, Dr. Sallaz -- June 4, 1974, Geneva Dr. Sallaz: I'm still working because I have to entertain with money. In our world you cannot do anything without money. But what may interest you is that we have several manpower who are looking for truth, for the really truth, and trying to attain it and to follow it. And for this reason, it is said to go only according the scientific organization officials, so on, we went in quite revolutionary ways. For instance, we took all biology coming from the energetic point of view which is quite different. Not with the microscope, not with chemical analysis, but with the thinking that everything is only immaterial reaction (?). And with this we achieved extraordinary result. So we have looked at the official world as completely fool. Yogeśvara: Are you able to understand when he speaks? I can repeat if you like. Prabhupāda: Yes, you come here. Dr. Sallaz: I believe on this point of view. (speaks in French with Yogeśvara) Yogeśvara: He explains that the group that he is heading up is a little bit revolutionary in the biological field. Instead of taking biology from the point of chemical, microscopic analysis, they take biology from the point of view of energetic, that is to say, everything being energy, stemming from some source, that everything is energy. Prabhupāda: This is nice. Actually, it is so. Dr. Sallaz: And our last official result is, of course, a scandal for the orthodox world. We did transmute matter from one to another. We achieved transmutation like alchemists in the Middle Age, you see. And a single element which is called iron, we make from it chrome which is another single element. And it is so revolutionary that we had the experimentation made completely not from our side but from official organization in France. (French) Yogeśvara: What he says is that the final conclusion of their research work has been... Dr. Sallaz: One of them. Yogeśvara: One of their conclusions has been to be able to make one element to change into another element. They were able to take iron and transform it into chrome by chemical process, almost like alchemy, he says. And this was very startling for the scientific world. Dr. Sallaz: Result. Result, only with physical heat, eight hundred, and pressure, only this. No laser, no atomic energy, nothing at all. Simply by natural measures. Prabhupāda: We can give you one information, that metals like bell metal. Bell metal is combination of...? What is called? Tin? Tin? What is another name of tin? Yogeśvara: Copper. Prabhupāda: Anyway, tin and copper and mercury; if you can mix, it will become gold. Dr. Sallaz: I'm sure it is possible, from what we have seen and made. But it is not of great interest to make gold. Prabhupāda: No, we are interested. (laughter) We want gold for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is paying us. We are simply selling our books. That's all. Nobody paying us, no government, no..., that "You take so many million dollars for spreading Kṛṣṇa..." Nobody. Therefore we require some gold. So biology, what is the basic principle of biology? Yogeśvara: Do you understand his question? Dr. Sallaz: Yes. Le principe, c'est la vie, life. And what is life? It is energy, speaking in European language. Prabhupāda: Life, what is his life? Yogeśvara: He says it is energy, life is energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Whose energy? Whose energy? Wherefrom the energy comes? Dr. Sallaz: From very, very high up. *Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. It is... This matter is also energy, and life is also energy. So according to Bhagavad*-gītā, this life, or the living being, is superior energy, and the matter is inferior energy. So this living being is combination of the superior and inferior energy. But the superior energy is not matter. It is spirit. Dr. Sallaz: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Yes. And it is the... Both the energy are coming from God. Dr. Sallaz: Exactly. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our study. So the living energy, the spirit soul, it has got a formation, formation, form. That is also stated in the śāstra, that 1/10,000th part of the top of the hair. Hair, the point, hair. (Yogeśvara translates in French) 1/10,000 part of the... The exact version is keśāgra. Keśa means hair, and agra means the top. Keśāgra-śata*-bhāgasya [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. So that point, you divide into hundred, and take again one part of it, and again divide into hundred. That means you divide the top of the hair into ten thousand parts and then that one part is the magnitude of the soul, spiritual energy. That spiritual energy is within you, within me, within the ant, or within the elephant. So we are living entities. And the body is inferior energy, at the present moment. In the material world the body is covering. Just like you are covered by the coat. Dr. Sallaz: No, you see, we have tried with some of our members, some of whom are very high in spiritual position, outside of this world. We have tried to look, to reach for the old truth in the very old knowledges of humanity. We have tried this with Indian knowledges. We have tried this with Chinese knowledges. We have tried this with Mexican knowledges. We have tried it everywhere. And we have found that everywhere there is, when you go deep enough, the same truth. Yogeśvara: He says among their members, many of them are spiritually inclined So they have investigated the ancient scriptures from China and Mexico, all over the world, and they found that if you go down far enough in the philosophy, it is the same truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes, truth is for everyone-if it is truth. Truth cannot be different. Chinese truth is different from Indian truth. That cannot be. Truth is the truth, provided it is truth. You take something myth as truth*-that is different thing. So the truth is that this body is formed on the basis of that spiritual spark. That is the truth. Dr. Sallaz: For our opinion, scientific knowledges, they speak about the genetic code, and for us, the genetic code is very simple, and we have prepared a revolution, for instance, in the genetic questions in replacing the thousand of books of explanation, scientific, with a single truth, and this truth explains all the genetic code, very simple. [break] Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the energy comes? *Dr. Sallaz: From where it comes, our poor human knowledge cannot gain something precise about it. We must believe it*-it comes from very high-but to explain it scientifically is completely foolish. That is our opinion. And further, as I said to you when looked at everywhere, if I take India, explain it coming here, that... I received it about ten or twelve years ago. That is what the Christians would speak about, a mystery, something extraordinary. I received from a holy man in India, with which I was corresponding from time to time. Without asking, I received a big book in Sanskrit. I could not understand a word about it. Well, I put it aside preciously... Prabhupāda: What is that book? Dr. Sallaz: It was the Āyurvedic collection. The old Āyurvedic medicine. This was this book. And I learned about it only one year ago because a professor of Sanskrit from India had it come from India to Europe and he's... Paris, I believe. He was a professor of Sanskrit. And showed this book. And he said, "It is marvelous. You cannot find it anymore. It is the old Āyurvedic medicine." And this I had for ten years without knowing what. Prabhupāda: So we are very pleased that you are accepting that the life comes... Life is energy. Now, which is... Dr. Sallaz: We give it a name, energy. It is much higher. *Prabhupāda: No, it is energy, exactly the name. Because we say prakṛti. Prakṛti means energy, nature, nature. Just like it is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. You find out this verse. (Yogeśvara translates.) *Dr. Sallaz: Our aim. We are looking about. The state of the world is going down since thirty years, I said. With pollution, with strengths, with power, with everything, the world is going down, going to the catastrophe. And there is only one possibility to save it. It is a question of spiritual revolution. Without a spiritual revolution, between twenty, twenty*-five years, the world is finished, all the world of which people are so proud. Prabhupāda: Very good. Dr. Sallaz: And this we are doing everything in our power to prepare and to do what we can to prepare this spiritual revolution. It is the thing we have to do today to save the world. Without spiritual revolution, there is no possibility to save the world. It is going down definitely. For this earth, yes. Prabhupāda: So we have started this movement, spiritual revolution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So why don't you cooperate with us? Dr. Sallaz: Oh, you see we are doing in our field everything we can and we are preparing to bring this special revolution. We have to bring to light all the old knowledges, the real spiritual knowledge. And this is what we are preparing. And it will take one or two years more until everything is prepared, can be shown. *Prabhupāda: You have studied Bhagavad*-gītā? Dr. Sallaz: Some. Some of the members know it perfectly. I do not. Prabhupāda: So you read that. Energy, two energies, how they are explained. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Dr. Sallaz: You see some of members are... (French) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: This is in the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, text numbers four and five. Prabhupāda: This is material energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalaḥ, explain that. *Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That the material energies-earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego-these energies, they come from Kṛṣṇa. In other words, we are speaking of energy. There is an origin to the energy. We always have an experience. Just like there is sunshine here, but the sun, origin, is millions of miles away. So in the same way these energies also have origin. It's not that they are just existing without some source. And Kṛṣṇa is describing here in the Seventh Chapter*-this is called Knowledge of the Absolute-how these energies are related to Him. Now, in the material world it's described that there are two energies. This is called bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā, inferior energy. This will be described in the next verse. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām [Bg. 7.5]. Now, this is describing the superior energy or the parām, the parāṁ prakṛti. And this is described, "Besides this inferior nature," which is this earth, air, water, fire, ether, "O Mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine which are all the living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe." So this earth, air, water, fire and ether... Just like your body, it is being sustained by the soul. And as soon as the soul leaves the body, then, of course, the earth, air, water, fire and ether, it is no longer sustained in this fashion. It merges into the various elements or energies. And in this way, we can understand that the material world is made up of two energies, as my spiritual master said: the inferior energy, or this aparā-prakṛti, earth, air, water, fire, ether, etc., and the superior energy, or the living force. So the point is that the life force does not come from a combination of earth, air, water, fire, ether. It is separate. That is a superior energy. And on this point we agree. Now, we have to find out what is the source of both the superior and inferior material energies, or what is God. Prabhupāda: And that is spiritual energy. That is spiritual energy. When we find out the source of these two energies, that the beginning of spiritual life, or spiritual understanding. *Dr. Sallaz: And, Your Holiness, you know, some of our members know this perfectly, Bhagavad*-gītā and all the holy scriptures, ancient holy scriptures, and all the others too, and have studied them for years, trying to look for truth. I am not in this stage and I'm... Prabhupāda: But truth is there, explained. Truth is there, Kṛṣṇa. From Him, the energies are coming. He is the Absolute Truth. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth, satyam. Then Bhāgavata explains, paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. So the Supreme Truth is there within our understanding. But people do not know it. Therefore spiritual revolution means the people should understand what is the Supreme Truth, and then mold their character and activities according to that relationship. Then that is success of human life. Dr. Sallaz: And I can say to you, we are making a very..., preparing, some of our members, a very important work, which is explanation from the medical point of view of all the genetic code which is in science something absolutely terrific, plenty, thousands of books and so on. Yogeśvara: What is your explanation of the genetic code? Dr. Sallaz: (French) Yogeśvara: He says... Very interesting. He says one of the conclusions that they have arrived at is that despite all of your research work, despite all of your scientific studies, if you don't have a simple spirit of inquiry, you won't be able to understand the codes of life. He says the genetic codes, actually, it is a great secret, a mystery, which they are trying to prepare for general understanding, and that secret is that you must be of a simple, humble spirit in order to understand the mysteries of life. Dr. Sallaz: You must try to look for truth, and when you look for truth, you see very extraordinary and simple solution explaining everything for the scientific men. But the time is not right to give it to them. A little later, yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You spoke of a destruction. You said that without a spiritual revolution, there would be some type of destruction. What exactly do you think of as destruction? Dr. Sallaz: Oh, the world will be dead. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: No. In the Bhagavad-gītā we have information that the living force, or the soul, is neither born and neither it dies. Dr. Sallaz: Ah, yes. I meant this world. Matter is the earth. Be careful. I don't mean life in general... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Now, this is the point that my spiritual master is bringing out, that the material energy is inferior, and in order to have a spiritual revolution you have to understand the superior energy which is eternal, without birth and without death. So, of course, there is no question of destruction for the soul. Dr. Sallaz: Destruction in our occidental language and practically, which is not yours. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Destruction in simple terms, just as we know something has a beginning and something has an end. That is destruction. So in Vedic terms that which has a beginning and has an end is called material, and that which has no beginning and no end, but is existing nonetheless, that is called spiritual or superior energy. Dr. Sallaz: Of course. This cannot be destroyed. Prabhupāda: Yes. That cannot be destroyed. Dr. Sallaz: That cannot be destroyed. It can disappear from the living people, Christian or other of this world, but not at all. Prabhupāda: Then what do you mean by spiritual revolution? Dr. Sallaz: It is to see, to look, for the real truth, the simple truth. The very simple truth. And to abandon our way of life aiming only for money, power and material things, to go back to simple living and especially to living with up. Prabhupāda: Living with? Yogeśvara: Living with higher thoughts. Prabhupāda: Then higher thoughts... Is there any definition of the higher thoughts? (French) Yogeśvara: He says humanly it is impossible to understand it. Dr. Sallaz: We can feel it. We can believe it, but we cannot explain it. Prabhupāda: No, if there is explanation by a person who is not a human being, say, God. Dr. Sallaz: Yes, we say God. Prabhupāda: Then why should you not take it? (French) Dr. Sallaz: We'll accept. (French) Yogeśvara: He said if it were presented he would accept it and try to promote it. Prabhupāda: Just find out this verse, Eighth Chapter, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Find out the index. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ: "Yet there is another nature which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." Dr. Sallaz: I am quite agree. And we do all in our center agree with it. *Prabhupāda: So then, first of all, we have to understand what is our constitutional position. We are superior-we, living entities*-we are superior energy, eternal. And after annihilation of this body, I, the spirit soul, superior energy, am not annihilated. I accept another body, material body. And there are varieties of body, 8,400,000. (Yogeśvara translates) Dr. Sallaz: And on this point of view, when some people are going very badly, wrong with us, of course, for us it is like air, but we say, "Poor people, what about their karma?" That is how we look it, "What about their karma?" It is a pity for them that they do so wrong, because they will have to pay for it. That is all. Prabhupāda: Yes. That "pay for it" means, he has got this chance of human body. Now he will have to accept lower grade animal body. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that at least on these points we are in agreement. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the real inconvenience is that I am eternal. I am now put into such condition that I have to change my body, and there is risk of getting degraded body. Therefore my problem is that-I am put into this condition, repetition of change of body-to get out of it-that is spiritual life*-and transfer myself there. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. Just like we are in this material nature. If we transfer to that spiritual nature, then there is no more this problem, getting this body, again annihilate, again get another body, again annihilate. This problem is solved. And that is spiritual life. (French) Yogeśvara: So he says they completely accept that there is a superior energy which can be attained. Prabhupāda: So therefore human activities should be dovetailed for going back to home, back to Godhead. That is spiritual movement. (French) Yogeśvara: This is also their idea. This is their point. Prabhupāda: We are giving this idea in practical form. Why not cooperate with us? (French) Yogeśvara: He says first of all, so far as cooperation is concerned, he is just one man. He is the president, although he is the president, still, he is only one man, and he can only speak in terms of cooperating with the spiritual movement among the more enlightened members of his group. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required, because if the enlightened men of the society does something, others will follow. It is not that the general mass of people has to be educated. They will be automatically educated. They will follow. If the enlightened man is living in such a way that he is going to be transferred to the spiritual world, then others will follow. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. At least, there must be a class of men, ideal men, that they are preparing themselves for transferring to the spiritual world. Then people will see that "Here is the ideal man," and they will try to follow. (French) But if people see that "He is also like us. He is also drinking, he is also eating meat, and he is also having illicit sex," then where is the ideal man? Everyone is implicated with these things, sinful life. (French) Yogeśvara: He knows about Guru Maharaji. He says he has so many people following him. The only conclusion that we can have is that there are many, many people who are looking for spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Sallaz: And they took everything they can find. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. People, especially in the western world, they are actually looking after some spiritual emancipation, but they think that from India... Actually, that is a fact. Therefore, any rascal comes, they go around him. But why the western people, those who are on the top of educational and social position, they try to understand what is spirit life and follow them, and place an ideal life so that others may follow. (French) Yogeśvara: Some of his members, some friends, were even visitors at the temples at Benares. Prabhupāda: That is as a tourist, but that is not understanding of spiritual life. Dr. Sallaz: I don't speak of tourist. I speak of a holy man. Be careful. Not a tourist. As a man having attained very high in truth, and for this reason, and not as a tourist. He was at the time crowded like you. Prabhupāda: Holy man means... Dr. Sallaz: (French) Prabhupāda: The real purpose of going to holy places is to find out there the holy man and take knowledge from him. That is real going to the holy places of pilgrimage. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that his members, who have gone to India, they themselves are considered to be holy men. Dr. Sallaz: And he went not there as tourist or to inquire. He went to speak, to try to speak about the truth, not about..., for questions. Prabhupāda: So some of you have gone. So what truth you have seen? That is... What is the truth? What you have learned about the truth? (French) Yogeśvara: That we must continue to look for it. Prabhupāda: But that is... They have not looked. Or they have not found out. Dr. Sallaz: To try to reach it. Prabhupāda: They are trying. They are trying, but they have not reached. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he doesn't pretend to have found it. *Prabhupāda: That's it. But then the next step is just to now find it. Here is the truth, Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. So why don't you accept this truth? If you are actually trying to find out the truth, here is the truth. It is accepted by all learned scholars and ācāryas of India: the Supreme Absolute Truth is Kṛṣṇa, so why don't you study Kṛṣṇa? (French) Yogeśvara: He says that's the kind of question you would have to ask his members. Prabhupāda: I can ask the members. I can talk with the members. If they are actually trying to find out the truth, then I can present them the truth. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that perhaps his members won't think that they need this kind of truth. Prabhupāda: Then what is the searching after truth? It is hypocrisy. (French) Yogeśvara: Maybe they already know the truth. Prabhupāda: Then what is that truth? Let us know. *Dr. Sallaz: I am sure that some of them knows perfectly well all the Bhagavad*-gītā. (French) Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: He says that you don't really need proof to convince anyone. Why should he have to show proof that you know... Prabhupāda: No, if you are searching after truth... Suppose if you are searching after gold. And if I give you gold, why don't you accept it? (French) Yogeśvara: Apparently his position is that by their research, they have discovered the truth. Prabhupāda: What is that truth? (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's the same truth that we are following. Prabhupāda: Well, same truth, this is vague. But what is the tangible presentation of the truth. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he can't explain it. Prabhupāda: We can explain it. Why does he not take from us? We can explain it. (French) Prabhupāda: If he knows truth, let him explain. If he does not know, take from us. (French) Dr. Sallaz: I do not. Be careful. I am trying to understand. I do not. I don't say to you I know the truth, not at all. I hope to know... Prabhupāda: Then why don't you take truth from us? (French) Yogeśvara: He says because he already has a guru and he already has everything he needs. Prabhupāda: But your guru has not given you the truth. You do not know. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that the guru doesn't give the truth just like that. He says it's something that you have to work for little by little. Prabhupāda: Then he does not know what is truth. We can give truth. Just like I give you some money, "Here, take this hundred dollars," we can give the truth in that way. (French) Yogeśvara: Why he should take it just like that when he can go on as he is going, preparing himself little bit by little bit. Prabhupāda: Why little bit? If he gets the, I mean to say, thing immediately, why should you go little by little? (French) Suppose you are... (French) Yogeśvara: He says because he finds it more pleasing. His spiritual master has given him a name Ratnānanda, and he says that that name means one who prepares himself little by little for the truth. Prabhupāda: But is that very good intelligence? Suppose you are searching after one million dollars. You are working little by little, little, and if somebody says, "Here is one million dollar. You take it," Why don't you take it? (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's a moral question. He already has his guru, and his guru has died. He's gone over to the other side, and he can't change gurus. Prabhupāda: But there is no question of changing guru. If he is actually searching after the truth, then why he is denying the truth when it is delivered? (French) Yogeśvara: He would have to be sure that it was the actual highest truth. Dr. Sallaz: The real truth, eternal truth. Because you see... Prabhupāda: That is... That we are... (French) Yogeśvara: This is what the conclusion we came to yesterday with that other guest, that he says they have also find truths in China, they have also found truths in other scriptures. Prabhupāda: So what is that truth? (French) [break] ...is that reality? Yogeśvara: He says he himself, he doesn't have the words to describe it. Prabhupāda: If you cannot describe the reality, then you have not received the reality. (French) [break] That means, as soon as you say you cannot describe, then you have no idea what is the reality. Yogeśvara: He's willing to admit that. Prabhupāda: So if you are actually searching after reality, why not, if reality is available from other source, why don't you take it? [break] Yogeśvara: Because certainly his members would have some questions they would want to ask you, and perhaps even you might have some questions that you would want to ask his members. Prabhupāda: Very good. We are prepared. (French) Yogeśvara: I think the thing is to make arrangement for such a meeting. Otherwise... Prabhupāda: Then make arrangement. But our pro... (end) Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva Prabhupāda: ...our books. *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Yes, I have seen. I have read them, but the Bhagavad*-gītā I have not yet received. *Prabhupāda: Not yet seen Bhagavad*-gītā? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He has seen, but he will get today. Prof. Regamay: And perhaps, some questions I could put to you? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Prof. Regamay: But first I would like to express my thanks that you gave me this honor to receive me. So I have different questions because I'm in such a difficult situation that I have many Indian doctrines, and there was some difficulty because I know them only through the books, without (indistinct). And, for instance, one of the first questions I want to put: Viṣṇu Purāṇa, it's very similar and very coincidental to the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*. Prof. Regamay: Is that... Practically, can it be considered that it's the same kind of... Prabhupāda: Yes, *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* is Vaiṣṇava literature. There are eighteen *Purāṇas*. Out of eighteen, six are sāttvika, and six are rājasika, and six are tāmasika. The sāttvika *Purāṇas*, they are Vaiṣṇava literature. *Viṣṇu Purāṇa*, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, *Padma Purāṇa*. Prof. Regamay: The same... Because I understood through... It is that the problem, that Kṛṣṇa is the original person of divine, but in, by Rāmānuja or *Viṣṇu Purāṇa* it reverse Viṣṇu is the highest. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. Prof. Regamay: And Kṛṣṇa is the avatāra of Viṣṇu. *Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is avatārī. You have read Bhagavad*-gītā? Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Find out this verse. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: *Prof. Regamay: Yes, I know what it is in the Bhagavad*-gītā but, for instance, in the words of Rāmānuja, it is not Kṛṣṇa, but it is Viṣṇu which is the highest form. So this one question, what I had to put that... And also... May I sit down on...? I would be much more... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give him another pad. *Prof. Regamay: Among the avatāras which are described in the second and third book of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, there are two questions I have to put. There is Kṛṣṇa Himself, who appears as His own avatāra, and the Kṛṣṇa, the yādava Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, when He appears within this material world... That is also in the Bhāgavatam, that He appears as Viṣṇu incarnation. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is the... In the Brahma*-saṁhitā it is stated, yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ, viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣaḥ [Bs. 5.48]. You understand? Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur mahān, Mahā*-Viṣṇu, yasya iha kalā-viśeṣo govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So the Mahā-Viṣṇu, the origin of the material creation... There is Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean. From Him the Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu enters into each and every universe. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48]. So jagad-aṇḍa-nātha is Brahmā. So he is produced on the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. And this Garbhodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is expansion of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And Mahā-Viṣṇu is kalā viśeṣaḥ, partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya hi, yasya hi. What is that? You have Brahma-saṁhitā? Devotee: You have a copy downstairs. Yogeśvara: Yasya prabhā prabhavataḥ [Bs. 5.40]. *Prabhupāda: No, that is another. Yasya niśvasita*-kālam avalambya. Mahā-Viṣṇu is breathing. So taking advantage of that breathing, innumerable universes are generating. And each universe, there is a superintending deity who is called Brahmā. Yasya hi niśvasita-kālam. Kālam atha avalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ. Many hundreds and millions of Brahmās there are. They live, only taking advantage of the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. [break] Mahā-Viṣṇu is sub-plenary portion. First Kṛṣṇa, then Balarāma, then Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Then, from Saṅkarṣaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. Then, from Nārāyaṇa, again catur-vyūha, second Saṅkarṣaṇa, Vāsudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Saṅkarṣaṇa is Mahā-Viṣṇu. And from Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. And from Kāraṇodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. The Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul. And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. In that way, Kṛṣṇa comes through Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu. But this Kṣīrodakaśāyī-Viṣṇu is the expansion of the expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I see, but... Prabhupāda: It is like that. Prof. Regamay: Yādava Kṛṣṇa spoke with Arjuna... Prabhupāda: Huh? *Prof. Regamay: It was the personal God Himself or it was an incarnation, this Kṛṣṇa which is in Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Kṛṣṇa is one. Advaitam acyutam. Infallible. Anādi, He has no cause. Ananta-rūpam. Ananta-rūpam. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam [Bs. 5.33]. He is the origin. Advaitam-acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca [Bs. 5.33]. Still, He's just a fresh young boy. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. So Govinda is the ādi-puruṣam. Aham ādir hi devānām. Find out this verse, aham ādir hi devānām. Rāmānujācārya has also admitted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme. Śaṅkarācārya has admitted in his notes on Bhagavad-gītā, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. What is that? Nitāi: *Prof. Regamay: Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm still concerned with two of the incarnation which have... Because for me this is the doctrine of personalism and personal highest form of God. Now, among two of the incarnations, there is Kapila and Buddha. And Kapila is practically, finally, the classical Sāṅkhya*-ist atheist. How could it be? Prabhupāda: Yes. This is imitation Kapila, and there is... Original Kapila is Devahūti, son of Devahūti, Kapila. *Prof. Regamay: It's what we can't find in Bhagavad*-gītā with... *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. So Kapila, this Kapila is atheist Kapila. He's a different Kapila. Original Kapila is the son of Devahūti, son of Kardama Muni and Devahūti. That is described in the Third Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. He is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, God. Kapila. And actually, he enunciated sāṅkhya philosophy. And this sāṅkhya philosophy which is known in Europe amongst the European scholars, that is the atheist Kapila. It is not the original Kapila. Prof. Regamay: So that's not a true Kapila. Prabhupāda: No. Prof. Regamay: And Buddha? *Prabhupāda: Buddha is śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, śaktyāveśa-avatāra; *Mohammed, śaktyāveśa*-avatāra. Śaktyāveśa-avatāra means a living entity especially empowered and he preaches the philosophy on behalf... That is called śaktyāveśa-avatāra. There are different types of avatāras. Guṇāvatāra, manvantarāvatāra, yugāvatāra, līlāvatāra, śaktyāveśāvatāra, like that. They are described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. About avatāras. You find out Teachings of Lord Caitanya, avatāras. Innumerable avatāras. Come here. Find out this chapter. Avatāra saṅkhyeyaḥ. It is compared, just like in the river, the waves are flowing. You cannot count, or in the... What is that? Avatāra. Read, read that chapter. Prabhupāda: This is very good example. There are many candles. Just like you ignite one candle. Then from this candle, another candle, another candle. Then many thousands of candles. So each candle is of the same power, lighting power. But still the first one is called original. So far the candle power is concerned, they are of equal flame, but still, the first candle, the second candle, the third candle. like that. Prof. Regamay: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate vivṛta*-hetuḥ [Bs. 5.46]. They are not derived from any other power. They are all Viṣṇu-tattva. Dīpārcir eva hi daśāntaram abhyupetya dīpāyate, yas tādṛg eva ca viṣṇu-tayā vibhāti [Bs. 5.46]. This is the expansion of Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu-tayā. Govindam ādi-puruṣam. He is always referring, Govinda, Kṛṣṇa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. Prof. Regamay: Yet I still think of this problem why Lord Kṛṣṇa had to have an incarnation like Buddha who was teaching atheist doctrine and no... *Prabhupāda: That is described. I have described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Find out, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, first part. *Prof. Regamay: I read it in your commentary to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that he was, he didn't need to preach the worship of God because He was Himself God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Regamay: But He doesn't say it in the text. *Prabhupāda: That is described in the SB.., sammohāya sura*-dviṣām [SB 1.3.24]. Sammohāya, just to bewilder the atheist class of men. The atheist class of men, we're advocating "There is no God." So He appeared before them... And they were killing animals like anything. So Buddhadeva inaugurated the non-violence. So therefore He is God Himself, and He is teaching, "There is no God." This is rather cheating. Prof. Regamay: Yes. Not teaching, but cheating. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughing) So sometimes... Just like a child does not want to go to school. So the teacher says, "No, no, you don't require to go to... There is no need. But what do you see in your front?" "That's a cow." "Now, what is this?" "A leg." "Then what is next?" "Second leg." "What is this?" "Third leg." So he is teaching mathematics, but practically, he says, "You don't require go to school. You just count the legs of the cow, that's all." It is like that. Prof. Regamay: Now there are some schools of Buddhists who are worshiping Buddha like a God. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is God. He is God. They don't accept Buddha as incarnation of God. But from *Vedas* we understand that He is incarnation of God. *Prof. Regamay: But he brought to the world the ahiṁsā, but I think ahiṁsā appears already in the Bhagavad*-gītā. But there was ahiṁsā also by the Jains. *Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā, because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña. Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas... Because Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantras. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras. So for that purpose, animal sacrifice... Just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals, frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so*-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal... Ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence... Just like Christians says that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish" or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that... I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere. So I said that He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said, 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara, godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; *still, they are pure. The same example. The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful, we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is... But people, on slight imitation... Is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said... And he teached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christians will maintain big, big, up*-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas. They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say in the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ: "The animals are created for being killed." And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing... Actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidences. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that "I don't care for your Vedas." Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction. Prof. Regamay: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas. So if he says, "No violence," then it is against Vedas. Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not, he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction," therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas. Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. From philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava we know that He is God. He is God, incarnation of God. Prof. Regamay: I have been struck in Ceylon on seeing in Buddhist temples, Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu, yes. There are in Penang. Penang also I have seen. They admit that Buddha is the incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is admitted in the śāstra. That means these Ceylonese or Penangese, originally they knew that Buddha is incarnation of Viṣṇu. In Ceylon you have seen? Prof. Regamay: I have seen. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, I have seen in Penang also, Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu*-mūrti. Prof. Regamay: And but he said also, the doctrine of Buddha, that man has not person, doesn't exist as person. He's only some moving elements, physical and psychical and nothing else. Prabhupāda: Person. He is person. He is person. Lord Buddha is person. Prof. Regamay: Yes, but Brahman is not person. Brahman. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: He says that Buddha's philosophy did not admit a spiritual personal identity to the living being, that Buddhist philosophy was that we are simply this combination of chemicals. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is all right. Prof. Regamay: Chemical, psychical, but no continuous, no ātman. Prabhupāda: That is śūnyavādī. We say also. Prof. Regamay: So they are... I think it's... I must say that when comparing different religions, I see that for instance, what I find here... Prabhupāda: There is no different religion. As soon as one tries to understand different religion, it is to be concluded that he does not know what is religion. That religion cannot be different. Religion is one. God is one. And the order given by God, that is religion. But "different" means according to time and circumstances... Just like Lord Buddha, he is giving the same religion. He is God, incarnation of God. He is asking, "Just obey Me." The same philosophy is being taught by Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." That is religion. Buddha also says "Surrender unto Me. Obey Me." So that is religion. Yes. So the religion is... One who knows God and surrenders to Him, that is religion, and anything, that is all cheating. Anything else, that is all cheating. That is not religion. This is religion. God is one, and surrender to God, that is religion. That's all. You take any religion, it doesn't matter. If one has learned what is God and how to surrender to Him, that is religion. Prof. Regamay: But I noted that for instance our Christian approach to God... Prabhupāda: In Christianity they also recommend surrender to God. *Prof. Regamay: It's nearer to your approach than, for instance, I don't know, as the kevalādvaita I mean, where nirguṇa*-brahman is the higher form of, than... *Prabhupāda: Nirguṇa*-brahman... Just like... Here we have got this example. This is, what is called, New Zealand lake, and a few step after..., *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Geneva Lake. Prabhupāda: Geneva Lake. And few step after French lake. Yogeśvara: Because French is a border of Geneva lake also. Therefore sometimes it's considered French. Prabhupāda: So the sky is one. Sky is one. So in the sky, in the atmosphere, where God is forgotten, that is called material sky. And the sky where God is not forgotten, that is spiritual sky. Just like the sky is one, and the sun is one. But when your eyes are covered by cloud, you say the cloudy sky. The sky is not cloudy. The sky is one, it is always clear. But some portion of the sky there is cloud, and you say, "This is cloudy." [break] Similarly, materialism means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And when you know Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. Prof. Regamay: Now, one question still. Why in the Ṛg Veda there is not even the name of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, Viṣṇu, there is. Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, I have already. There is no difference. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the... Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the *Upaniṣads*, they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. The personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The... Just like, the same example: the sun god, the sun planet and sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun god. So sun god is the origin of this light. Similarly, *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam [Bg. 10.8]. That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge they cannot understand it. Therefore stop... [break] ...light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said, "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower class students, one plus two equal to three, two plus two..., that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: That's it. But there is higher mathematics. Not one plus two or two plus three, no. There is still higher mathematics. So that is not meant for them. That will be explained, explained in the Bhagavad..., ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Those who are expert, or sufficient, insufficient knowledge, they cannot understand the Supreme Absolute. That is also confirmed, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he can understand Kṛṣṇa and surrenders unto Him." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. So *Vedas* and scriptures are there, differently, according to different conditions. Now, what Jesus Christ was teaching the people? You can understand. The first injunction is "Thou shalt not kill." So what class of men they were, just you can understand. Otherwise, why he is first of all telling "Thou shalt not kill"? The Mohammed also said, "From this day, there is no sex with your mother." So just see what class of men. So according to class of men, there should be teaching. Similarly, Buddha also, Lord Buddha said, "No, no, there is no God. Just try to understand me. You obey Me." "Yes, sir." It has to be done like that. *Prof. Regamay: Still, there are two questions I have which remain. One is quite a small question. I have read in your commentary to the chastisement of Droṇa, killing of Droṇa, and where it was that violence for a right cause is better than the so*-called nonviolence. Now I wanted to ask, for instance, to find that nonviolence or like Gandhi, it was wrong... Prabhupāda: Gandhi was not a man of spiritual under... He was a politician, that's all. Prof. Regamay: Yes, but in his personal... Prabhupāda: Gandhi, actually he did not know anything. *Prof. Regamay: Yes, he read Bhagavad*-gītā in English. Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense. There was no Kṛṣṇa. There was no *Mahābhārata* or Kurukṣetra. He has written like that. Prof. Regamay: But he was dead with the words Rāma, pronouncing, "Rāma Rāma." Prabhupāda: Well, I... That is the process of India to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Every Indian has got initial propensity, but actually Gandhi did not know anything about spiritual science. He was politician, that's all. That one Bengal governor, he was from Australia, Mr. Keziar (?). So he, I remember. "Gandhi is a politician amongst the saintly person or a saintly person amongst the politicians." This study was made. His moral principle, character, is very good. That is to be taken by the politicians. But so far his spiritual knowledge is concerned, that is nil. Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case? *Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence... Actually that is the subject matter of Bhagavad*-gītā. What do you mean by nonviolence. Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence. But the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām [Bg. 4.8]. Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily. Prof. Regamay: But this young boy who was asking what to do with the fascists the day before yesterday, he wanted precisely violence to fight against the fascists. You, remember... *Prabhupāda: First of all, the thing is that our principle is vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are sinful rogues, to kill them. Now, we have to judge whether the fascist, he is sinful or the person attacking the fascist, he is sinful. If both of them are of the same category, then where to use violence or to use nonviolence? Now... Formerly, there was fight between nation to nation and now, we have seen in Italy*-I was in Rome-now they are fighting amongst themselves. Prof. Regamay: Awfully. Prabhupāda: Amongst themselves. Now they will fight in the family. So people are becoming so degraded. They require all to be killed. Prof. Regamay: Yes. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: The fascist and the non*-fascist and this and everyone... And that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, fascist and non-fascist. Because according to Bhagavad..., paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. All these people, under different names. Prof. Regamay: Yes, it's violence for the violence's sake practically. *Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so*-called leaders. They are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra, simply killing, simply killing. That's all, finished. *Prof. Regamay: But they have still four thousand years of Kali*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Not four thousand, 400,000. So here the time is coming. And now the partial killing is going on. You drop this... The atom bomb is ready. You have got, I have got. I drop on you, and you drop on me. Both of us, we finish. This is going to be happening. People are so degraded. So unless one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no possibility of being saved. There is example, that grinding mill... You know, grinding mill? Prof. Regamay: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes, and the grains are put within it and they are all smashed. But one grain who takes shelter of the center, the pivot, it is not smashed. Similarly the modern civilization is such that everyone will be smashed. And one takes the central point shelter, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will not be. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. So best thing is to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and save yourself. Save means... This is saving, if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma... Kṛṣṇa appears, disappears. Kṛṣṇa works here also, in the battlefield or in other field. Kṛṣṇa has a whole activity. You study Kṛṣṇa Book, beginning from the birth up to the point of His leaving this world. Full of activities. Not that because He is God, He is sitting one place. No. Full of activities in all different spheres of life. Art, philosophy, politics, sociology, military arts*-everything complete. That is Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: Yes, of course. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. If He would have appeared as Viṣṇu with four*-handed, then He had to take only worship. That's all. No other activity. Therefore He appeared with two hands like human being. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. So simply if we understand what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, then we become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar. We are teaching that thing, "You try to understand Kṛṣṇa and all problems of life solved. You go back to home, back to Godhead." Prof. Regamay: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, and we are only the tools for Him. *Prabhupāda: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. As you want Kṛṣṇa to do that, He says, "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility. "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says, "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right do it." But you have to get the result of it. Prof. Regamay: I thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prof. Regamay: It was very extremely useful. Just ends some problems. (end) Morning Walk -- June 5, 1974, Geneva *Prabhupāda: As soon as... Just like dog he does not know that he is controlled by the master, "Tch tch tch tch," chain. He does not know. He is thinking, "I am now free. Rau! Rau! Rau! Rau! Rau!" This is the position, no difference between the dog and so*-called big, big men. If the dog thinks that he is free and he can jump over anywhere freely, is it possible? No. Fully controlled under the master. He has accepted this control. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Especially in the western countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the people do not like to think that they are controlled or that they are... Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. He is controlled in every step, and he is thinking... Therefore rascals. In spite of this big, big house, nice road and good car, they are rascals. But he thinks falsely. He thinks that he is independent; *He will not die. Then why does he think like that, like a foolish man? As soon as māyā kicks on his face, he will die. That's all. Immediately. "I have got some business, sir." "No, no, you must die immediately." And still, he thinks that he is not controlled. What is this nonsense? We shall go that side? That is knowledge, that "In spite of my all so*-called advancement of civilization, I am controlled." That is knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Then he should think how to get out of it. That is intelligence. And if, like cats and dogs, he thinks that "I am not controlled," then he is no better than cats and dogs. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. By prakṛti, by nature, he is pulled by the ears, "Come here!" "Yes, sir." "Come there!" "Yes, sir." And he is thinking, not controlled. As soon as he eats little more than he requires, "You must starve three days!" And he is not controlled. Just see. How much foolishness. And they are getting Nobel Prize. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: No one has ever gotten a Nobel Prize for saying, "Yes, we are all controlled." Prabhupāda: Because the man who is awarding him Nobel Prize, he is also a rascal, (laughs) and he is also rascal. The society of rascals, that's all. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, therefore, "This is a society of cheaters and cheated." That's all. Somebody is cheater, and somebody is cheated. And they have made a civilization of cheaters and cheated. That's all. They have got good sense. They have... Just try to utilize it. Just like last night that gentleman, "In my opinion..." He never thinks that what he is, what is the value of his opinion. But he thinks, "In my opinion..." And what is this nonsense? What is your opinion? Then he admits "No, no, I have no objection." That is progress, that he admitted his fault. What is the value of your opinion? I said, "We have no opinion. We take the opinion of Kṛṣṇa, that's all." We have no opinion. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: You caught him in the end, though, when you said, "If Kṛṣṇa is man, then this is no value." And then he said, "How do you know Kṛṣṇa really spoke this? How do you know this is really Kṛṣṇa?" So actually, he just did not accept Kṛṣṇa from the beginning. Prabhupāda: No. He thinks that "Kṛṣṇa is a bigger philosopher, that's all. And I am also philosopher. So He has got His opinion, I have got my opinion. That's all." They think that. That is described, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ: [Bg. 9.11] "These rascals thinks Me as one of him, one like him." Mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Therefore Dr. Radhakrishnan and other rascals like him, they think, "Why Kṛṣṇa shall say, 'Surrender unto Me?' This is sophistry." What is the meaning of sophistry? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Sophist is half-wise and half-foolish. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He thinks that "I am as good philosopher as Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? I have got my own opinion." He thinks like that. And that rascal is writing commentary on Bhagavad*-gītā. And it is selling also. Therefore we presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, not a rascal ism. Yogeśvara: People buy his book because he is the former president of India. They think he's authority. Prabhupāda: That's all. He does not know that he is a fool number one, fully under the con... Now his position. I saw him in Madras. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Paralyzed, paralyzed. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you cannot recognize. And he gives his opinion. Just see. Nobody thinks that "If I am not controlled, I do not wish to die, why there is death? I do not wish to become old. Why there is old age?" A common sense. "I do not wish to be diseased. Why there is disease? And still, I am thinking that I am not controlled." That means no brain even, common sense. Piśācī pāile yena mati*-cchanna haya. Just like ghostly haunted, madman. He stands on the st..., "I am the king." He stands on the street. It is like that. He does not know, "At any moment I will be knocked by any car and I shall die." But he thinks like, "I am the king." Madman. They are all madmen. Yogeśvara: I remember when I was living downtown eastside New York, there was one drunkard who was standing on the street directing traffic, trying to stop the cars. Prabhupāda: Yes. They do that. We have seen that. He thinks, "I am the controller. He must do..." (laughter) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Everyone who has read your Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīla Prabhupāda, after having read so many Bhagavad-gītās, everyone has understood that "At last Bhagavad-gītā is very clear and simple to me. I have not understood before." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because all these so*-called Bhagavad-gītā commentaries written by rascals, that's all. They are all rascals. They cannot understand what is Bhagavad-gītā. The MacMillan Company's trade manager has admitted that while others Bhagavad-gītā is selling less, this is increasing. (pause) Yogeśvara: So I prepared one argument this morning. Prabhupāda: What is that? *Yogeśvara: There's a theory of the psychologists that-in some ways it's similar to our idea*-that people are conditioned, that according to their environment, according to their upbringing, according to their parentage and so on, they have a kind of way of acting and thinking. So their argument is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just another kind of conditioning, that you leave one kind of conditioning, a material conditioning, but then you also enter into another kind of conditioning when you live in the temple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioning, certainly. The position is that you must be under certain condition. That is your position. So if you become conditioned by God, that is your perfection. And if you become conditioned by māyā, that is your trouble. You must be conditioned. That is your position. You cannot be independent. And therefore, if you become naturally conditioned, then that is your happy life. Just as child, he must be conditioned. But when he is conditioned by his parents, that is his perfection of life. Your position is that you must be conditioned. Why you are thinking to be independent? That is your rascaldom. You should always know that "I must be conditioned. That is my life." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Condition. Still conditioned, but daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, under the spiritual nature. That is Mahātmā. Mahātmā is not independent. He is also conditioned. So first of all, we must understand that our natural position is to be conditioned. Now, why, where I shall be conditioned? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. You condition here. "You become conditioned by Me. Then you will be happy." Those who are thinking that "We shall not be conditioned," they are still in māyā. You cannot be without condition. Yogeśvara: Their program is that if a child's problems come from the wrong kind of conditioning, then he should be given the opportunity in childhood of a good family, good education, and so on, and that way there won't be bad reaction later on in life. Prabhupāda: That means he should be given chance for better conditioning. Conditioning must go on. It cannot be said that "Let the child be given freedom." No. Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's what they say. They say it's freedom when there is a lack of bad conditioning. *Prabhupāda: That is... Bad condition is good conditioning. Where is freedom? From bad conditioning you are suggesting good conditioning. That is not freedom. Just like you are in the prison house, you are badly conditioned, but the so-called freedom*-you are still conditioned under the laws of the state. You are not free. But from bad conditioning to good conditioning. And if you obey the state laws, then you are good citizen. But you are conditioned. How you think of freedom? That is your foolishness. Just like a servant. He is in some mercantile firm. He is trying to seek out some government service. But he cannot be free. Yogeśvara: So in other words, they would say your idea is to give them a better conditioning. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not better conditioning. You must know what is the best condition and take that condition. The best condition is to be under the control of Kṛṣṇa. That is your best first*-class way. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You said that in the Bhagavad-gītā when it speaks of being desireless, it means that actually one is desiring for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye: [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] "I don't want this." "Don't want, don't want, don't want" does not mean he becomes negative. "I want Kṛṣṇa. So many things, 'Don't want,' but actually I want Kṛṣṇa. And that is my life." And not that "Don't want, don't want, don't want, then become zero." Not that. Yogeśvara: No, they also say we know what we want. We want food for everyone, we want... Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know. Therefore he is changing from this place to that place. He does not know. If he had known, then he would have surrendered immediately to Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. He does not know. Yogeśvara: But the idea is "We can accomplish the same good results even without Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: That he does not know. He is a fool. He does not know what is a good result. He will change again. He is a rascal. He is putting himself in this condition; *again he'll desire another condition. That is the change of body. That is his wanting. Sometimes he's taking the body of a dog, sometimes he is taking the body of a demigod. Bhramatam upary adhaḥ [1.5.18]. Down, just like, what is that? Merry*-go-round. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Ferris wheel, ferris wheel goes up and down. *Prabhupāda: Sometimes "I am so up," and again come down. This is going on. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān. Therefore, in this way, going round, one who is very, very fortunate, he, guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151], he comes to the devotional life by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. They are under the myth, under the spell of māyā. This is going on. Yogeśvara: Well, they say "You are distributing food, and we are also distributing food. You are opening schools, and we are also opening schools." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are opening school for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it's not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: [Bg. 4.3] "You are My devotee. You are My very dear." But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that's all. But fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that "Why shall I kill my kinsmen?" But Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Oh, that's all right." So therefore service is for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmī means sense gratification, and bhakta means Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati..., it is karma. And you do it for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Dhare prema nāma. The gopīs, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ramyā kacid upāsanā vrajavadhu*-vargena ya kalpita (?): "Oh there is no more better mode of worship than it was conceived by the gopīs." What is their conception? Prostitution, that's all. Simple prostitute. Kṛṣṇa was a beautiful boy and they were attracted by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa. They wanted Him as their husband, lover, to dance with them. That is the gopīs. And these rascals are taking that "This is very good. Kṛṣṇa also did like this. So let us do; gather some girls and dance, and we become Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda, Therefore Vyāsadeva has devoted nine cantos just to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then try to understand what is the gopīs' behavior with Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals jump over it. Sahajiyās. Jump over Kṛṣṇa's dealing with the gopīs. And that is Bhāgavata. Because rascals, they shall remain rascal. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: If the Māyāvādī accepts the principle that bhakti is good, but at the end he throws it away, will he have a change of heart? Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda. That is Māyāvāda. They have no conception of the eternity of bhakti. That is Māyāvāda. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Will the change in heart come about for such persons because they're somehow associated with Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Just like Kaṁsa associated with Kṛṣṇa always, their position is like that. That is not bhakti. Bhakti is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], favorable, not to reject Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, and think of Kṛṣṇa, "How to kill Him? How to kill Him? How to kill Him?" That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that is not favorable. Therefore it is not bhakti. But they get the salvation because they have some way or other thought of Kṛṣṇa. Impersonal salvation. They are not allowed to enter into the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa. Satsvarūpa: In the beginning of devotional service, the concentration is on the service more than on Kṛṣṇa the person. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: But then gradually, as we serve and serve and concentrate on the service, then there's realization. Prabhupāda: Yes, realization comes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Of who we're serving. *Prabhupāda: The disciple serves Kṛṣṇa under the direction of spiritual master. Vidhi*-mārga, regulative principles. Vidhi-mārga, rāga-mārga. [break] ...gunarna jata nat krta mukha santi (?). So, I think it is mud. Satsvarūpa: Here it's getting more and more moist, dew. [break] Prabhupāda: ...friend, but what is my business? My business is to serve the senses, that's all. Kāmādīnām, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya, mada, the six kinds of sense gratification I am doing. This is actual... Just like this man, he is thinking he is very big man, but he's servant of his dog. Is it not? But he is thinking that he is very big man. He does not think that "What is my business? To serve this dog in the morning." He has no sense. Because he has no prescribed duty to serve Kṛṣṇa... He must serve, and therefore he must serve dog. That is his position. But still, he's thinking, "Why these foolish people are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am serving the dog. I am very big man." He has become very big man by serving the dog, and we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. We... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...even though it is covered by smoke. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That verse. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That even though one's activities in the material world are covered by faults, still one should perform his activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. In India there is a Hindi proverb, bekase begar achar (?)... (end) Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva Yogeśvara: Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Center in Geneva. Prabhupāda: One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Center? Yogeśvara: Yes. Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant. Swiss Man (1): The President. Prabhupāda: Why don't you give him a chair. Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Little rheumatism. Prabhupāda: Give him chair. *Yogeśvara: Yes, he's... Satsvarūpa Mahārāja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Center of Geneva. Monsieur Roche*-dieu who is the... *M. Roche*-dieu: Former, former Honorary Professor of History of Religions on the faculty of theology, Protestant theology. *Yogeśvara: Mr. Roche*-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion. Prabhupāda: Ah. (French) Yogeśvara: Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university. Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: Theology student. Our spiritual master, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So you have shown our books? Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes of these books. *Yogeśvara: (French*-Yogeśvara showing books) *Prabhupāda: And Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. *M. Roche*-dieu: Whose are those pictures? Yogeśvara: Our students. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations. *M. Roche*-dieu: Indian students? Yogeśvara: No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students. Prabhupāda: No. American students under my direction. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of... Satsvarūpa: The letter, in English. Yogeśvara: (French) *M. Roche*-dieu: Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliade who is in Chicago, department, religious department? Yogeśvara: What is his name? *M. Roche*-dieu: Mssr. Eliade, Eliade. Yogeśvara: Professor Eliage? *M. Roche*-dieu: E-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman. Yogeśvara: Eliage, Professor Eliage... *M. Roche*-dieu: Eliade. Eliade. Yogeśvara: Eliade. Chicago University? Prabhupāda: No, I have never gone to Chicago. Yogeśvara: Is not Professor Dimmock from Chicago? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Professor Dimmock, perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimmock. He's head of which department? Satsvarūpa: East Asian. *Yogeśvara: The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad*-gītā. *M. Roche*-dieu: I have seen it, yes. Chicago University Department Swiss Man (1): (French) Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka. What is the symbolism, significance? Prabhupāda: It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides. Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: The shaved head, he's asking. Prabhupāda: This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean. Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking. Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially the brāhmaṇas, they keep the shaven head. Brāhmaṇas are the topmost class. What is the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, find out. Yogeśvara: (French) Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Find out this verse. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Page? Nitāi: 235. Yogeśvara: You have it? Nitāi: You want to read it? Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body*-the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmaṇas are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: So their qualification, brāhmaṇa qualification, find out. Page? Nitāi: It's eight twelve. Yogeśvara: Eight twelve? Prabhupāda: 812. Yogeśvara: (reads verse 18.42 in French) Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?" Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only. Swiss Man (1): But there are the outcastes... Yogeśvara: Do you mean the untouchables? *Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta*-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. There is... Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: Read it. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān... Yogeśvara: (translates) Nitāi: Prabhupāda: The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious there is no more distinction. Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (2): (French) *Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu*-saṁhitā, for example, śūdras are not to be instructed. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra. A devotee is no longer śūdra. We are creating brāhmaṇas. Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu*-saṁhitā, they are mlecchas, yavanas. But we are not keeping them mlecchas and yavanas. Just like these European and American boys. They are accepting the Vedic regulatives principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas. They are brāhmaṇas. Yogeśvara: (translates) *Prabhupāda: So it is said, guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmaṇa, he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana. He is brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava. Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system. Prabhupāda: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism, or Hinduism; *it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guṇa*-karma. One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated. Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction. Swiss Man (2): (French) Yogeśvara: What was his first point? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian whereas it seems in this only some can become brāhmaṇa. So he is interested what is the path to becoming brāhmaṇa. How does one become brāhmaṇa? Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the ten commandments, how you can become Christian? Yogeśvara: (French) *Prabhupāda: First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the ten commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guṇa-karma: by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim*-it doesn't matter-then there is. Find out that verse, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Read it. This is the ideal of equality. Find out. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: *Prabhupāda: So our, this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism. One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhāgavata. That is first*-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing. Prabhupāda: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too. Prabhupāda: Why man? Simply love God; *then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā, you will find, God says, *M. Roche*-dieu: Living being. Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian; I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being; I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God. *M. Roche*-dieu: (French) Life is a whole view, and there is no division between animals and man. Prabhupāda: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics, the same spirit soul. Read that. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma. So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that "Only love the human being." There is no such thing. Yogeśvara: (translates) Frenchman: (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God." Prabhupāda: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal... Just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant, the animal may be ignorant, but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal? Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking, "How do we see ourselves and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society." *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity... Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that "These are human beings. They should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa elephants. They are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hole of your room there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them? Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: (translates) He says, "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain, many species that do eat meat." Prabhupāda: Among the animals. But you are not animal. *M. Roche*-dieu: They do not eat anything else. Prabhupāda: But you are not animal. Animals among... The tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion? Frenchman: (French) Yogeśvara: (translates) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe... Just like a man who has one hundred sheep and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But why you should kill animal? *Young Swiss Man (3): At the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: And Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning disobedience. How you can become Christian? *Young Swiss Man (3): Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught, through Bhagavad*-gītā in some way is that he should not restrain and that... *Prabhupāda: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad*-gītā. When there is aggression you have the right to kill but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful. Young Swiss Man (3): Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants? Yogeśvara: Why do we make the distinction between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants? *Prabhupāda: We do not kill plants also. We take... Of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say, "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. there must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Kṛṣṇa says*-find out this-patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Yogeśvara: (translating) ...jīvo jīvasya jīvanam (French)... Prabhupāda: There is no jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. Here Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me these things, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam." There is no question of jīvasya jīvanam. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: Just hear. Kṛṣṇa is ordering, "Give Me this food." Yogeśvara: (translates) Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. (translates) Prabhupāda: So we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. We don't directly do anything. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them and then you take. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Kṛṣṇa's, not mine. Yogeśvara: (translates) Frenchman: (French) Prabhupāda: (aside) Why don't you open this? *Yogeśvara: He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' " Prabhupāda: You must kill always. Where is that...? Where is that quotation? Yogeśvara: (French) *Prabhupāda: Are... You know... Where is the quotation in the Bhagavad*-gītā? Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says in the beginning of the *Gītā*, Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight. Prabhupāda: Why? "Because you are kṣatriya. There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for..." Just like my hands, kṣatriya. If there is attack it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight because you are hand. Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "But then Kṛṣṇa says, 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification..." Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa does not say, "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals." Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Prabhupāda: Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court and if you say that "He is not killed," will you be saved? Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only...?" Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yogeśvara: He says, "How is that that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad*-gītā teaches?" *Prabhupāda: Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become... Find out that verse, yeṣām anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ. This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. [break] Yogeśvara: Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate... *Prabhupāda: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic, pillars of sinful activities... Just like four pillars. One is this meat*-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling, and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress. Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously. Prabhupāda: But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped. Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things. Prabhupāda: Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows. Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man. Prabhupāda: The fellow man helping, what does he gain? Yogeśvara: (translates) He says, "Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities..." Prabhupāda: No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question. Yogeśvara: He says, "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself." Prabhupāda: But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him? Swiss Man (1): Certain circumstances. Yogeśvara: He says, "In certain circumstances." *Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances, but if you do not know how to... Suppose a man is diseased and you think... The doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know-I help in the opposite way*-that is not helping. That is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not... Helping means, real helping is, that a man or anyone... Everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help. Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger, there's a danger in what he calls "spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually... Prabhupāda: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he... That is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego, that "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good. Yogeśvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yogeśvara: That how can we say that to give people..., that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress. Prabhupāda: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do? Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "Probably not very much." He said, "But maybe we can do something." Prabhupāda: Then this is simply a false pride, that "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service, that "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Prabhupāda: So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk? Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: You want to translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons." Prabhupāda: But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also; they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If... The Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows? Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free... Prabhupāda: Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not..."? They are all false thing? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Read it. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. Read the purport. Yogeśvara: (reads purport in French) *Prabhupāda: So far I have studied... I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this*-produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land..." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff. There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia, and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food? Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says all of these things, they are known. They know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this... Prabhupāda: And therefore knowledge is required. Yogeśvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice. *Prabhupāda: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. That is not love. I love you and kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means... You see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ. *M. Roche*-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, we think, love. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others. *M. Roche*-dieu: No, no. Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons. Yogeśvara: Here's that verse. Prabhupāda: Here is the verse. Yogeśvara: Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that. Prabhupāda: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge? Yogeśvara: (translates) Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego, and this pride. What is that knowledge? Prabhupāda: So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me, and in him? What do you think? Yogeśvara: (translates) Is that right? Did I translate? Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that... First of all he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: But he says now... But there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept. Yogeśvara: (translates) Was there something else that I missed? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motor car, big motor car, big machine, is moving but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement... Real mover is the spirit. You have to admit. Yogeśvara: Yes, they are willing to. Prabhupāda: Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately... So I am also īśvara, means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara, "the supreme controller." That is God. Yogeśvara: You can translate that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translates) *Prabhupāda: So there are two īśvaras. I am also īśvara. So far my, this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things*-material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of... Swiss Man (4): Geneva. Prabhupāda: Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things, animate and inanimate. One section, animate; another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras. We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. As supreme God, the supreme controller is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit, we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge. Swiss Man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content." Prabhupāda: Thank you. Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Kṛṣṇa has that same position for us. Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father. Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he thinks, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa, he says, is an avatāra of Viṣṇu? *Prabhupāda: Well, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa is the same thing. It is external. Kṛṣṇa... Somebody says Kṛṣṇa is avatāra of Viṣṇu, and we say that Viṣṇu is expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle. The another, ignite another candle, ignite another candle... Now, all these candles, so far light*-giving power the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble because the candle power is the same. Yogeśvara: (translates) Frenchman: (French) Yogeśvara: He says, do we see Kṛṣṇa as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior? Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "savior"? Yogeśvara: (translates) Frenchman: (French) Yogeśvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being. Prabhupāda: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering, so savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead. Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru, the spiritual master. He's asking, is Kṛṣṇa our guru? Kṛṣṇa, we consider Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message he is neither guru, nor son, nothing of the sort. Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure... They're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Is it the same or... *Prabhupāda: We are also thinking of Kṛṣṇa always. Eh? Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. We are chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." We are always remembering Kṛṣṇa. So the real process is... Either you think of Kṛṣṇa or son of Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, Ninth Chapter. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. Nitāi: [Bg. 9.34]: Nitāi: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." Prabhupāda: That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa or Jesus does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process. "Engage your mind in Me." Then? Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of god; it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see, Swiss Man (1): (French) Yogeśvara: (translates) And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, our philosophy is that naturally these others things, charity, humanitarian works, they will all come naturally? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given... [break] ...one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor*-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the U.S.A also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious. Swiss Man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them." Prabhupāda: Hm? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "And you said them." *M. Roche*-dieu: I am very glad to have, to heard you saying these. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Bring prasāda. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: Show him the pictures. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) Prabhupāda: We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy, you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children. Young man: Are you from Los Angeles? Yogeśvara: No, I'm from New York. Prabhupāda: This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here. Swiss Man (1): (French conversation, prasādam is served) Yogeśvara: Right there. The young man behind you. (French) Young man: How well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to... Yogeśvara: He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee. Swiss Man (1): (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said, "Yes, but then I went, and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties." Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that "Some of the hippies," like that. Swiss Man (1): Have you been in connection with Aurobindo? Yogeśvara: Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Śrī Aurobindo? Prabhupāda: Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo? Swiss Man (1): Because he's... We know in (indistinct). Prabhupāda: He does not know better than Kṛṣṇa. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. We never... Why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Kṛṣṇa. That is admitted. Yogeśvara: (translates) Prabhupāda: Aurobindo was... Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Kṛṣṇa devotee. Yogeśvara: (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them. Prabhupāda: And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles) Yogeśvara: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Give this flower. Thank you. Swiss Man (1): And God bless you. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation*-choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now, did I say wrong, that "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?" Nitāi: You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right, great. Prabhupāda: I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? People don't know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said, "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism? Prabhupāda: That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity. Yogeśvara: He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think..." Prabhupāda: That's all. Yogeśvara: "...think we can do something." *Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said... He belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds, that "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor... Now, those who have accepted voluntarily povertyism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty*-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them? Yogeśvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood. Prabhupāda: This is karma. If you have bad karma, then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said, "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand. *Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Therefore I said Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor feeding." To do to the humanity*-and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone-paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant but that does not mean you kill them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this? Yogeśvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating... Prabhupāda: Cow's flesh. When it was? Yogeśvara: This was about... Now it is almost a month ago, one month ago. Prabhupāda: Where it was? Yogeśvara: In the Andes mountains? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: High in the mountains. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed. Nitāi: South America. Yogeśvara: Is it South... Nitāi: Andes, yes. Yogeśvara: I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles. "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No." *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Who's left a copy of Bhagavad-gītā here? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy. Yogeśvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: One thing on that report. I read that there were certain people... Prabhupāda: There was no vegetable? Yogeśvara: No, it was way up in the mountains. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Icy, cold. Yogeśvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies, his fiance or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies they would eat them last. It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister-in-law, cousin. They said, "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that. Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also. Yogeśvara: Concentration camps. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Really? What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view? Prabhupāda: What is that? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break regulative principles-if it is necessary? Prabhupāda: If it is necessary. Yogeśvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years? Nitāi: Saubhari? Viśvāmitra. Prabhupāda: Vālmīki. Yogeśvara: No. Nitāi: Viśvāmitra? Prabhupāda: Viśvāmitra. Yogeśvara: He also had to eat dog, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: There's a story about that. Prabhupāda: Yes, Viśvāmitra. How they exist in that open, and there was snow. For eating they... Eighteen days? Yogeśvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on blankets and their coats. But there was no... They could not go outside. There was no food. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They had... At first they had little chocolate and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves. "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did. Yogeśvara: They made some... Afterwards they had to... There was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that "We must eat this flesh to stay alive but it's not so wrong since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise dead body's flesh is as good as anything else because it is matter. Yogeśvara: So who is coming? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is one more meeting today. Prabhupāda: Where? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: There is the European Center for Nuclear Research. Prabhupāda: What can I do there? (laughter) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: This man has worked in India... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhāgavata also it is recommended, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāga... [SB 7.6.1]. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa worship and Ratha-yātrā, the same thing. Nitāi: Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat? Prabhupāda: Little fruit and a little this. (end) Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva Robert Gouiran: ...one month. I should be very glad to know where I should go for my second trip. If you could inform me. Prabhupāda: Yes, you come to Vṛndāvana. We have got nice place there, and we shall accommodate you. Real spiritual life you'll find in Vṛndāvana, in Navadvīpa. We have got places... In Navadvīpa also we have got very big building, and Vṛndāvana. These are recognized. Robert Gouiran: But where is it? Prabhupāda: Actually... First of all, thing is that what is your point of view for visiting these Aurobindos and Maharshi Raman and what others? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Pondicherry. Prabhupāda: Pondicherry. That is all Indian. Robert Gouiran: And Tirumalaya (?). Prabhupāda: Tiru... One...? Robert Gouiran: Tirumalaya. Prabhupāda: You have been there? Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: Tirumalaya. Robert Gouiran: Arunacalam. Prabhupāda: Arunacalam, yes. So you visited the temple? Robert Gouiran: Yes, of course. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Robert Gouiran: I saw it. And the red... Prabhupāda: Eh? Robert Gouiran: ...the red, sacred mountain. Prabhupāda: White? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The red, sacred... Robert Gouiran: The red, sacred mountain. Arunacalam. Prabhupāda: Arunacalam. Oh, yes. The temple is on the mountain. Robert Gouiran: No, just at the foot of the mountain, on the east, exactly on the east. And the Maharshi Ashram is on the south. Prabhupāda: So you stayed there for some time? Robert Gouiran: Well, between Pondicherry and there for one month, four weeks. Prabhupāda: So who is the... Robert Gouiran: Then I have to go back to so many places. Prabhupāda: So what was your achievement by visiting these places? Robert Gouiran: Uh, it's a little difficult to explain, but I made a series of personal experiences which convinced me of the existence of the occult plane. So I could get some contact with what I call the occult plane or whatever you call it. That means that the way how we could get the transparency and then to go where we have to go. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice, beginning of spiritual understanding. Robert Gouiran: So I left them to let things go and to go with the... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that you went there for some spiritual enlightenment. Is it not? Robert Gouiran: Spiritual achievement? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Enlightenment. Robert Gouiran: Enlightenment. Of course. And I got the first... Yogeśvara: Taste. Robert Gouiran: The first small light of this enlightenment. Prabhupāda: That I am asking you. What is that light? Robert Gouiran: It's not complete yet. It's not complete yet. Prabhupāda: No. Whatever you have received, that I want to know. Then I can understand where you stand on the spiritual platform. Robert Gouiran: Where...? Yogeśvara: If you can explain that little bit that you have understood... Prabhupāda: (aside) Not now. Yogeśvara: ...then he will know better what your position is on the spiritual platform. Robert Gouiran: Yes. I should like to do so. Uh, I think, I understood that we could... It is difficult to explain in English. Prabhupāda: You can speak in French. He'll translate. Robert Gouiran: (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He has learnt how to be taken into things without being taken by things. That is to say that he has just let himself go, and from that letting himself go, he's been able to see things transparently. He's been able to see through things. Prabhupāda: So what does he see? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Robert Gouiran: (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I've seen that there is the need, I have felt that there is the need to become in harmony with things which will take me where I need to go." Robert Gouiran: (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: "And to try and work and find out the true path." Robert Gouiran: I try to work this intuition, to make it stronger, in order to feel where I have to go and to participate... Prabhupāda: So where is the difficulty...? What is the difficulty in the position you are now, at present? *Robert Gouiran: Good question. The difficulty is that I lost the thought of this transparency by a lot of criss*-crossed swords which make a sort of block, and I have very, very strong difficulties now here to feel intuitively the occult plane. And I am back in the reality... Prabhupāda: What is that? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Coming back now into the West, he feels so much difficulty to still be sensitive, to have this intuition of the spiritual plane. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He says that there are like criss-crosses, like swords blocking... Prabhupāda: So one thing is that he's feeling difficulty in the material atmosphere of the West. Is it the fact? Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is good. Robert Gouiran: And the... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Robert Gouiran: (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (Translating) "Too much thinking, I do too much thinking." Prabhupāda: Anxiety. Robert Gouiran: Too much information. Prabhupāda: Not thinking, but anxiety. Yogeśvara: (French) Robert Gouiran: Exact. Yes. It's hard because if there is no anxiety these sword does not stay in the mind. They just pass. Prabhupāda: This anxiety there must be when we are in a different atmosphere. Just like we heard there was a plane crash. So we are travelling by plane. So as soon as we get on the plane, that anxiety is there. So the anxiety is caused on my boarding airplane. So if I do not board airplane, then that anxiety is nowhere. So anyone who is existing in this material world, there must be anxieties. There must be anxieties. Exactly, the same example, that as soon as I... It may be very nice plane; it doesn't matter. But I know that it is unsafe. At any moment it can crash. Therefore there is anxieties. So similarly, we are, so long we are in the material platform, we cannot avoid anxieties. Robert Gouiran: Yes. It's a little... Because what I felt is this, when we could... *Prabhupāda: First of all we should understand this, that we are in, on a platform. That is called material platform. So, so long you'll remain on the material platform-material platform means the bodily concept of life*-the anxiety will never be stopped. First of all let us understand why there is anxiety. The example is given: because I am a being of the land, artificially, when I go up on a plane, on the sky, this is the cause of my anxiety. So I am a spirit being, I am a spirit soul. So long I'll live in material conception of life, we cannot avoid anxiety. This is not possible. This is the problem. Robert Gouiran: Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: I am a spirit soul. So my natural abode for living is spiritual world. So so long I am in the material world. It may be... The same example. I may be on the 747 or DC-10 or 10C-10 or this or that nonsense, I must be in anxiety. So that is the problem. And what is that material problem? Material life means you have got this material body and you do not wish to die. The anxiety on the plane is: "Because I may die..." That means you do not wish to die. That is my anxiety. If there is plane crash, then I may die. And therefore my anxiety. If I am assured that I'll not die, then where is that anxiety? The anxiety is that I do not wish to die, but death is there. So that death is there either on the plane or on the ground. You cannot avoid death. Why I cannot avoid death? Because I have got this body which is perishable. Therefore if I want to be anxietyless freely, I must try for that thing by which I do not get again a body like this. Then I'll be anxiety*-free. Even a small bird, if he sits here, he'll do like this-anxiety. You give him something to eat, but he'll not dare to come near you because he has anxiety that you may capture him. He knows that. Therefore the material life means four things: We, we require to eat something; we want a place for sleeping; we want to gratify our senses; and we want to defend from anxiety. This is material life. Robert Gouiran: And may... Prabhupāda: Eh? Robert Gouiran: May I... I agree completely because I felt that when I could get a contact with the spiritual plane, I felt the protection. I felt that nothing could happen to me, not happen. As long as I was in touch... Prabhupāda: Yes. Robert Gouiran: ...with this plane, nothing could happen because I felt I was in harmony. And when I went back, I took the plane, exactly as you say, at Colombo, I went by Colombo, and there was a storm, terrible storm when the plane took off, and the lady beside me was very frightened, and I was so enlightened at the time that I told her, "We are protected. I am protected. So if you are beside me you are also protected. So nothing could happen." And it was an extraordinary feeling. In French we call that providence. You know that? Prabhupāda: Providence? Yes. That... When we are in danger, we remember the providence, but when we are happy we forget providence. (laughter) Robert Gouiran: (French, "I didn't understand.") *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Robert Gouiran: No, because I felt that when we reach this point, we, we are, we get to... Prabhupāda: Anyway... Robert Gouiran: (French) *Prabhupāda: At the time of danger, we remember providence or God. That is also good. So that is a Hindi proverb that duhkse sab hari bhaje, sukse bhaje kol, sukse ajar hari bhaje, duhka ase hay(?). Means "When one is in danger, he remembers God, and when he is in happiness he forgets God. Therefore if he remembers God always, then where is danger?" So our business is to become God conscious. Then there will be no anxiety. So we are preaching that, I, here, that you become God conscious. Death is there. You cannot save yourself. Either you are on the land or on the plane, death will be there. You must be prepared for the death. But if by practicing remembering God, even at the time of death you continue to remember God, then your life is successful. Death will be there. You cannot stop that. Ante nārāyaṇa*-smṛtiḥ [SB 2.1.6]. So if at the time of death we can remember God, then our life is successful. Therefore, before death we shall mold our life in such a way that always thinking of God. Man-manā bhava mad... Satataṁ cintayanto mām. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. This is life. We should always remember God. Then we must know who is God otherwise how can I remember? If I have no idea of God, then how can I remember? So we must know what is God. We must remember always God. We must become a devotee of God. In that way we can save ourself from the anxiety. Otherwise it is not possible. Because a God-conscious man, he knows that "I'll die. Everyone will die; I'll also die." But his concern is: "At the time of death, I shall remember Kṛṣṇa." That's all. Then his life is successful. Death we cannot avoid. There must be. Tyaktvā deham. We have to give up this body. But the question is how I shall give up this body. The cats, dogs, they also give up their body, and I'll also have to give up my body. But shall I give up the body like cats and dogs, or as human being? That is the process. Therefore one should, a human being should prepare himself how to give up this body. That is humanity. Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." *Prabhupāda: Material body means again death. As soon as you accept this material body, either human body or cat's body or dog's body or tree's body, it has end. Therefore it is said, tyaktvā deham, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, giving up this body, no more accepting any material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. "He comes to Me." And that is the solution of all anxieties. So if you want to become anxietyless, therefore we would advise you to become God conscious, always think of God, Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. This is the process, that so long we'll be on the platform of material existence, we cannot avoid anxiety. That is not possible. Therefore it is the duty of everyone to give up this material world and take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That will give us relief from all anxieties. (pause) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Is it clear? [break] Prabhupāda: ...activities. Otherwise how can you become Kṛṣṇa conscious? In our society we are doing so many things. We are sending our men. We are publishing books. We are distributing... Because: how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the only idea. Central idea is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So there is activity, always. From morning, four o'clock, until night, ten o'clock, we have got full program of activities. And all these activities are meant for how to become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: I think... When I was in college I studied chemistry, and I think many of the scientists that I also met, they felt very alienated from their asso..., from their relationship with nature or with God because of their empirical approach to everything, of setting themselves apart from everything. Therefore they felt detached from the complete whole, almost as if an island floating away somewhere with no relationship. Prabhupāda: They... You became detached from all material activities? No? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Well, just the observer. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: This is the scientist's point of view. He's just observing, observing, observing, and therefore he feels almost left out of it. So they want to participate. They're very attracted to the... Prabhupāda: But he's observing himself or not? Or he's simply observing outside himself? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad-gītā says that he is observing his body, his field of activities. *Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad*-gītā... I am asking... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He's observing outside of himself. Prabhupāda: Then why does he not observe himself, that "What I am?" "Am I this body? Or what I am? Why I am full of anxieties?" Robert Gouiran: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. But actually that's a very interesting way of approaching the problem of spirituality, you see. We are learning that actually everything has some relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. So you are a physicist, if I have understood,... Robert Gouiran: Yes. Yogeśvara: ...a nuclear physicist. So you have a very highly specialized field of knowledge. So it would be valuable to see also what is the contact of nuclear physics with the... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Spiritual physics. Prabhupāda: The spiritual physics is... (laughter) Robert Gouiran: Spiritual physics. Prabhupāda: Yes, "spiritual physics" can be said. Robert Gouiran: I should say that the word "science" is misleading. The word science is generally used by the opponent of science as a pejorative label. Because really, they don't know what science is. And they think that should be the enemy. Yogeśvara: Let me relate the information little by little. He says "The word science is misleading. Generally the word science is used by people who are enemies of science to make it, to pinpoint it, that 'This is the enemy.' So they call it science, a general word." Robert Gouiran: Exactly. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are misleading. They have no knowledge, and they are misleading. The basic principle of knowledge... They have no idea of spiritual basic principle. They take material basic principle. Therefore the beginning of their knowledge is wrong. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Robert Gouiran: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So on the wrong platform you may go, go forward more and more, but it will be dismantled because it is wrong. Yogeśvara: What is the... Is there a... What is the nuclear physicist's idea about the origins of creation? Robert Gouiran: Well, nuclear physics... Prabhupāda: They do not... Robert Gouiran: Nuclear physics has nothing to do with the study of creation. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have nothing. Robert Gouiran: Nuclear physics is just the study of the structure of matter. Yogeśvara: The structure of matter? Robert Gouiran: Yes. That's... How matter is done, as long as we could observe it. And how the matter is organized. And is it, is it possible to go in the deepest level where we could find the smallest particles. But nothing... Prabhupāda: But so far nuclear weapon is concerned, so there is no much credit. Because it is a weapon for killing, death. Is it not? Not for that purpose? Robert Gouiran: No, no. Nuclear physics in itself is just a pure research of knowledge. But the manufacturing of weapons, that's not nuclear physics. Prabhupāda: Oh. Robert Gouiran: That's just business. Prabhupāda: What is the nuclear physics? Robert Gouiran: The nuclear physics is just a search of, the search of the structure of matter. Yogeśvara: The structure, how matter is... Robert Gouiran: How matter is done at the most elementary level. Yogeśvara: Finding the smallest particles of... Robert Gouiran: That has nothing to do with manufacturing of weapon. Prabhupāda: So we understand the matter generates from spirit. Just like I am a small fragment of spirit. You are also a small fragment of spirit. So when I am in the womb of my mother, so my big body grows. On account of my spirit, small particle of spirit, coming in the womb, in the womb of my mother, the body grows. So it is evident that this body has grown because the spirit soul is there. Suppose a dead child comes out. The matter will not grow. The material body will stop growing. Therefore the conclusion is matter grows on account of the spirit fragment. Do you agree or not? Robert Gouiran: I... Do you mean that matter grows starting from a spiritual seed, something like that? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Robert Gouiran: If we, if we speak in scientific terms, there is an immaterial concept called the energy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The spirit soul is also energy, and matter is also energy. Two energies, when they contact, the, the so*-called expansion of matter takes place. Robert Gouiran: Yes, and we could study in our laboratories the passage from energy to matter and back from matter to energy. It's what we call... Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy. Robert Gouiran: ...materialization. The process of materialization. Prabhupāda: No, now, first of all, let us understand what is matter and what is spirit. Spirit is also energy, and matter is also energy. The matter, when it comes in contact with the spiritual energy, then it grows. Otherwise, it does not grow. Therefore the growing process depends on the spirit. Take this example, my body, your body. The spirit soul when it is in the womb of the mother, then it grows. The abdomen of the mother grows out. But if the spirit soul is not there, then it will not grow. There are many sex intercourse, but if the spirit soul is not there, the sex intercourse will not turn into pregnancy. Do you realize this? Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then how the material body grows? Because the spirit soul is there. Is there any denial? Robert Gouiran: We call in a way, but... Prabhupāda: You call in any way, but the fact is this that there is something, when in contact with that something, the matter grows. Otherwise it doesn't grow. That we call spirit soul. You may call it something else. That is a different thing. You can call in a different name, but matter grows not automatically. There must be in touch something with matter. Then it grows. This is a fact. Robert Gouiran: And it grows by aglutamation (?) of particles. Prabhupāda: Yes. That may be. The composition may be. We take grossly five matters, gross matters, and five subtle matters. Five gross matters: this earth, water, air, fire, ether. These are gross matters. And subtle matters: mind, intelligence and ego. These are eight different types of gross and subtle matters. But they depend on the still more subtle thing. That is soul. If the soul is there, the gross matter, this material body, it grows, the mind acts, the intelligence acts, the ego acts, and as soon as the soul is out of this body, it does not act. It decomposes and again turns into gross matter. That's all. Therefore that spirit soul is the basic ground wherefrom the matter develops. Matter is developing, we can understand. A small child is developing big, fatty body. The elephant. But in the middle, if you stop, if you drive away the spirit, it will not grow. Robert Gouiran: There is also something we should do, we do in that rat race when we study the structure of matter that we could discover a new type of energies which could help humanity to survive. So it's not pure speculation. We don't know if it could be used. We don't know yet if what we are looking for is useful or not, but past experience has shown that humanity needs energy to live... Prabhupāda: The energy is already there. Robert Gouiran: Fire, electricity, or some other type of energy. Prabhupāda: Energy is already there. You are working. I am working. Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: With energy. But what is that basic energy? The basic energy is that living force, life of the soul. And if that basic energy is absent, you cannot work any more, finished. Yogeśvara: No, I think you're speaking about energy for like running machinery? Like solar energy and petrol energy, like that kind of energy? Robert Gouiran: Well, the energy for this now, for this recorder. Prabhupāda: Electric energy. Robert Gouiran: For cooking your food. Prabhupāda: Electric energy. Robert Gouiran: Any energy you need to survive. Prabhupāda: So energy comes from a source. Just like this electric energy is coming from the electric powerhouse. There is a resident engineer who is... What is called? Chilling (?)? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Generating? Prabhupāda: Generating, yes, generator. He is somehow or other, putting the machine to get out... Yogeśvara: Turning, turning the generator. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Engineer. Prabhupāda: Engineer. So the electricity is being generated. So behind this energy there is the living entity, engineer. Otherwise it is useless. No more energy. If you drive away that resident engineer, the electricity will fail. No more energy. Robert Gouiran: I see that, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to understand like that. So behind this big machine which is generating electricity, there is a living being, who is pushing the button. Robert Gouiran: Who organized it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Without that, it is nothing. Robert Gouiran: It's just to put forward... *Prabhupāda: Therefore behind this big, gigantic machine, physical world, there is a living entity, a big, powerful living entity. He is God. We are simply sample of God, a small particle. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. Just find out this. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are samples of God, small particles. Just like gold, big gold mine and a small particle of gold. Both of them are gold. Composition is the same. So we, the small particle of God, we are trying to create here so many things. The creating energy is there. Because we are a small particle of God, very small, so we have got so much energy, and we are planning so many things. Because on account of that creative energy. So you can just imagine how much creative energy has got the Supreme Lord, of whom we are little samples. We are little sample only, part and parcel, very small particle. So we are creating by our mind... Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi. By our senses and mind, we are so many things planning. You are also working in the laboratory with that senses and mind. But you are the creative energy. So the struggle is that we are planning to become happy within this material world. That is described here: manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]. Karṣati is simply struggling. That's all. Robert Gouiran: Stru...? Devotees: Struggle. Robert Gouiran: Oh, struggle. *Prabhupāda: Struggle. We cannot do anything because the bigger creative energy's there. And we are simply trying to combat with Him. So therefore, uselessly we are struggling. That's all. We cannot change. Because the bigger creative energy is different. Prakṛti, the material nature. Just like they are trying to create living being in the laboratory. So suppose you are trying to create living being by scientific, chemical combination, so what is the credit to you? Millions of living beings are created by the material energy. Where is your credit? You cannot even create a small ant up till now. So simply you are wasting your time. That's all. Therefore it is called, prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati. Eh? Just like the children are playing. What is the value of this playing? They are making some howling noise. That's all. What they can do? But they are thinking they are creating so many things. "We are Ṭhākura (?)." (laughter) So you all scientists, you are doing that thing. That's all. You cannot do anything. That is not in your power. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. It is very, very difficult, physical energy, which is being conducted... Just like you you have created this nuclear bomb, and if you take it and throw on the sun planet, what is the effect? Nuclear bomb can destroy something here. But where the... Your nuclear bomb will be destroyed if you throw it on the sun. Is it not? What is your calculation? We know the sun... Robert Gouiran: If we throw... I didn't understand every word. You mean if we throw a bomb on the sun? Prabhupāda: Yes. So what will be the effect? Robert Gouiran: What will happen? Prabhupāda: Yes. Robert Gouiran: In the sun? It will burn. Prabhupāda: Which will be burned? Sun will be burned or your bomb will be burned? Robert Gouiran: The bomb will burn. Prabhupāda: That's it. So your teeny effort... Robert Gouiran: The sun might burn. (laughter) Prabhupāda: ...this physical science is nothing. Robert Gouiran: Nothing to do. Prabhupāda: The biggest physical machine is going on. So it is simply childish playing. Robert Gouiran: (French) *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: There is another example. Just like the glowworm. When there is darkness... You know the glowworm. When there is darkness... You know the glowworms? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Glowworms. Prabhupāda: Yes. They give some light. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: At night. Prabhupāda: But when there is sunrise, what is the value of this? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Prabhupāda: So your all this physical scientific advancement will be like glowworms in the presence of the scientific arrangement of God. Robert Gouiran: But the scientists know that science is not complete, but we try to do it as the nearest approach we could do. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Robert Gouiran: Nobody claims to be complete. *Prabhupāda: It is just like the children. The children are trying to build castle on the sea beach of sand, very busy. Two, three hours, so long the father, mother is there, they're busy. But as soon as the father, mother goes, "Hey, come on," everything finished. So this scientific struggle is exactly like that, all childish, children's play. Therefore this word is used, prakṛti*-sthāni karṣati: "The living entities, they are trying to create so many things, but it is simply struggle for existence." It has no value. The same example: a children is building castles, skyscraper building. They're thinking, "This is skyscraper building." But what is the value of it? Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, I have been in Rome. Those... Two thousand years ago, they also constructed big, big arena, Roman arena, this temple, that temple. Now they are simply relics. Those who constructed, they're finished. And where they have gone, nobody knows. And whatever they did, that is simply relics. That's all. So when they acted on these big, big buildings, it was very important business. The same building is standing, and it is useless. Robert Gouiran: But the relic of a ship doesn't mean that the ship has been useless. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: His, he says... Prabhupāda: No, no. For the time being. It is useless... Actually, it is useless. But for the time being, we are taking as very useful. Just like the aeroplane. It is very useful. But as soon as crashed, where is the...? Whole thing is lost. And it will crash. Because everything material we are creating... Just like the big, big buildings. They're also crashed. The end is there. Anything material, it has got beginning, and it has got end. That is our point. So things which will end in due course of time, why we should waste our time in that way? And we are part and parcel of God. We have got different business. We have forgotten that. We are simply engaged in temporary castle building which will be relics after some thousands of years. So are we not wasting our time? Robert Gouiran: There is no end. It's only a transformation. Yogeśvara: There is no what? Prabhupāda: What is that transformation? Robert Gouiran: You say... Yogeśvara: There is no end? Robert Gouiran: ...there is a beginning and there is a end. But I don't call it an end. It's just transformation. Prabhupāda: The transformation is going on automatically. Transformation... Just like from ether there is transformation of sound. From sound there is air. From air there is fire. From fire there is water. From water there is land. That is going on. You are not doing anything. It is going on. This is known that this is the physical elements. Beginning is the ether. Do you accept it or not? From ether there is sound. From sound there is air. From air there is fire. From fire there is water. From water there is land. Yogeśvara: His point is this transformation is going on... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: ...but what was one ship or one relic, now there's a new one. Is that your point? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That there is no beginning or end to the energy. Robert Gouiran: No, what I said before. I said that to say that the ship is now relic... Prabhupāda: But you... That we admit. There is some temporary use. There is some temporary use. Robert Gouiran: Yes, I agree. Prabhupāda: Just like your body has got some temporary use. Your body... But the... Your body's working. You, you are a scientist. You are working. Your work is temporary. But the soul, as soon as the soul is gone from your body, your body'll not work. Robert Gouiran: Yes, but during his life my body has participated to a cosmic plane. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yogeśvara: He says, while the ship is existing or while the body's existing, it must be used. It has some utility. Prabhupāda: That I admit. But you have to accept it that it is temporary. Robert Gouiran: Oh... Prabhupāda: It is temporary. Robert Gouiran: But it's a parcel of... Prabhupāda: I don't say that it is false. It is temporary. Robert Gouiran: I agree it's temporary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Robert Gouiran: But my work is to understand what will be the next transformation. Prabhupāda: That transform... Robert Gouiran: So to transform the temporary... *Prabhupāda: You know or do not know, the transformation will take place. Take, for example, the ship. The ship is combination of these five material things, earth, water, air, fire and... And when it is destroyed, it again turns into earth, water, fire... So the conservation of energy is there. You simply give a shape, temporary, and it goes again to the same place, original physical elements. This is going on. But you are... You do not know that you are eternal. That is ignorance. So therefore the sense is that "If I am eternal, then why I am busy with these temporary things?" That knowledge is lacking. I am eternal. So now, as human being, I am busy in temporary things, to construct a big ship or aeroplane. But as soon as I change this body, I become a bird, I have no power. Then I manufacture a nest on the top of the tree. That is my business. Or... Because the body will change. That is lack of knowledge. I am eternal. In this particular body I am busy with some temporary things. And as soon as I change my body, then another temporary thing. Eh? The... Suppose the big Romans. When they were Romans, they constructed all these big, big buildings. But if the Romans have changed into birds, they're no more interested in this body. They're interested in making some complicated nest on the top of the tree. This is going on, life after li... This knowledge is lacking. Therefore it is said, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni... They are struggling on this mat... [break] ...physical world by concocted mental speculation. That's all. As soon as the body is changed, then everything is changed. Robert Gouiran: I agree. Prabhupāda: That they do not know, that "I am changing this body, and I am getting temporary engagement and wasting my time. And... But my problem, the change of body, death, is there. The death is there. Therefore my real problem is how to stop this death." That we want also. We do not wish to die. That is our propensity. *Robert Gouiran: Are you interested to know how we produce anti*-matter in our laboratories from...? *Prabhupāda: Anti*-matter, I have explained that, this... So our anti-matter is different. Anti-matter means spirit. But your anti-matter is different. Robert Gouiran: Yes, it's just a word to define something. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but we mean, anti*-matter means there are two things, spirit and matter. So anti-matter means spirit. That is our explanation. It is not matter. Just like matter is destructible. Anti-matter means which is not destructible. That is... Any matter... Find out this verse, acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam aśoṣyaḥ akledyaḥ... Find out... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same." *Prabhupāda: Yes. So any material thing is chedya, you can cut. Any material thing. The five kinds of material things, earth, water, air, you can cut it into divisions. Or it can be burned. It can be evaporated. Or it can be moistened. These things are material things. But the spiritual means just opposite. It cannot be cut. It cannot be dried up. It cannot be moistened. It..., so many things. And that is... We mean anti*-matter. Just opposite. Which is possible in the physical world, but is not possible in the spiritual world. That we say anti-matter. But your anti-matter is another matter. Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Another matter. Robert Gouiran: Another state of matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Robert Gouiran: It is a state of matter which does not exist in our universe, in our solar system. *Prabhupāda: Maybe. But it is another material conception. And our anti*-matter is... This is described. It cannot be cut, it cannot be dried up, it cannot be moistened, it cannot be... So many things. Which is possible in any material thing. Robert Gouiran: That's the definition of energy. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says the definition you've just given of soul, that is their definition of energy, that it cannot be... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: ...destroyed, it cannot be... Prabhupāda: That is, that is spiritual energy. Two energies. We accept two energies. One, this material energy, which can be cut into pieces, which can be dried up, which can be moistened, which can be burned. But another, spirit, that cannot be done so. Yogeśvara: If I remember correctly from the little bit of studies that I did in physics, I think it's also the physical definition that material energy is also indestructible, that it's transformable, but not destructible. Is that correct? *Robert Gouiran: Exactly, that the, that the... I was telling the definition of the energy. And if we start from pure energy, absolutely immaterial, pure energy, this pure energy can transform itself in two parts. One is called matter and the other I call anti*-matter. And these two parts, they can annihilate together, and then you have back the pure energy. That is definition, our definition, of anti-matter. The anti-matter is what is produced with the matter from pure energy, and what is annihilated by matter to produce again pure energy. You can't, you can't produce our matter, ordinary matter, from pure energy. It's impossible. *Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. That pure energy is spiritual energy, and from that spiritual energy the material energy comes out. That I have already said: From the soul the matter grows. So that is spiritual energy. The basic energy is spiritual. And because the spiritual energy is the cause and the material energy is the effect, therefore in one sense we can say there is no difference between material energy and spiritual energy. Because spiritual energy is the cause, and material energy effect. Effect may be presented in different forms. Just like cotton is the cause of thread. And the thread is transformed into cloth. But you cannot take cotton for cloth. The cotton is there in the cloth in a different, transformed, transform, but you cannot accept, when you require a cloth, you cannot take cotton. This is a crude example. So the cause of physical elements is spiritual energy, and the spiritual energy is... Both spiritual... Spiritual energy is coming from God. Just like... (aside:) Close. (sound of windows closing) Just like the sunshine is coming from the sun, and in the sunshine there are so many physical transformations. Is it not? In the sunshine... Just like we, ordinary men, we can understand. When there is absence of sunshine... In your western countries or in other..., the leaves of the tree falls down. And again, in the springtime, as soon as there is sufficient sunshine, immediately thousands of trees grows leaves. So there is action of sunshine. So sunshine is coming from the sun. And the sunshine is working in different ways, changing the color of the flowers, of the leaves, and... Or, so far I know, all the planets are, they're rotating on the sunshine heat. Eh? So therefore the sunshine is the original cause of all material, physical things. But wherefrom the sunshine comes? That comes from the spiritual energy. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. In the Brahma-saṁhitā. So that original cause is the spiritual energy. Therefore, because everything is coming from the spiritual energy, you can take everything as spiritual. The same example: like cotton is the original cause. Then it comes thread, then comes... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Cloth. Prabhupāda: Cloth. Then comes coat or shirt or so many things. So cotton is everywhere. Similarly, the spiritual energy is everywhere, but it is transformed by different processes. Therefore the Vedic injunction is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. Our philosophy is that everything being Kṛṣṇa's energy, everything should be employed for Kṛṣṇa's service. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The property is Kṛṣṇa's. By Kṛṣṇa's energy, everything has come into existence. Therefore everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Therefore everything should be employed for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, for His pleasure. Suppose you create something... You create some building, you create some family, you create some... So many things. You want to enjoy it. Otherwise, why you create? Why you take the responsibility of a family? For your enjoyment. Otherwise who takes care of the family? So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person. He has created us, Kṛṣṇa's family. We also address Kṛṣṇa, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And He's actually giving us bread. Not only us, to all the living entities. So it is a big family, and Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. So we should all be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: (French) Prabhupāda: That is perfection. *Robert Gouiran: Just to be clear about what is the scientific concept of anti*-matter... Prabhupāda: This is the scientific concept of matter. The matter grows from spirit. How you can deny it? Robert Gouiran: I don't deny this. What I'm... Prabhupāda: Then this is scientific. That I have already explained. So the, the supreme source of everything is Kṛṣṇa. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." *Prabhupāda: That's it. He is the source of everything. So*-called material, so-called spiritual-everything coming from Him. Therefore everything transformed... Or not transformed. Everything is transforming. That's all right. Therefore everything belongs to Him. So everything should be employed for His satisfaction. That is perfection. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births, when one becomes actually scientist, he understands, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything." Find out. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? Yogeśvara: I was explaining to him that he seems some... Robert Gouiran: (French) Prabhupāda: Eh? Robert Gouiran: (French) Yogeśvara: He's wondering whether there's some kind of information that he can supply providing the scientific point of view. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yogeśvara: Whether there's some information that he can provide. *Prabhupāda: This is the information, that matter comes from spirit. The so*-called scientists, they are thinking that life is coming from matter. And that is nonsense. Matter is coming from life. This is sense. Where is the proof that life is coming from matter? Is there any proof? We don't find any proof. Robert Gouiran: But life... Prabhupāda: You have got laboratory. Robert Gouiran: ...can come from matter. It can come from matter. Prabhupāda: You combine matter in the laboratory and produce a life. That you cannot do. Then why do you say that life comes from matter? Robert Gouiran: But what is life? Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He asks what is... Robert Gouiran: What is this life we should, we could not produce? Prabhupāda: That you are speaking, that is life. If this life is not there, you cannot speak. Robert Gouiran: So it's a speaking machine. Prabhupāda: Yes, you are speaking because the life is there. That is life. Robert Gouiran: So we can produce a speaking machine. Prabhupāda: Eh? Robert Gouiran: We can make a speaking... Prabhupāda: No, speaking, what is that speaking machine? If I speak, then it will speak. (laughter) That is nonsense. This speaking machine will speak when I speak, when the life speaks. Otherwise it has no speaking power. Then what is the use of your machine if there is no life? Robert Gouiran: But that doesn't tell me what is life. *Prabhupāda: Now, life means... Just like you say that speaking*-machine is an instrument. It has no life. But when a living man speaks, the machine speaks. Yogeśvara: It is a study of the symptoms. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the whole physical world is a machine, and the Supreme Life, Kṛṣṇa, when He manipulates, operates, then it works. That is stated. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "This material nature is working under My direction." *Prabhupāda: This is... Just like the machine is working under the direction of a life, they are... [break] ...not without God. That is this, it has no value. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā [SB 1.5.22]. Find out this verse. In this yellow book. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In that one? Prabhupāda: No, no. In that yellow book. Yes, index. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā... Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Five, twenty-two, Page 252. Yogeśvara: So we need the other volume. Prabhupāda: Which part? Yogeśvara: First book. Prabhupāda: That's right, yes. What is the verse number? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: 5.22, Chapter Five. Yes. Prabhupāda: Guṇānuvarṇanam. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Guṇānuvarṇanam. "Translation: Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely, austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Prabhupāda: So if you have got scientific knowledge, you scientifically explain that God is the original source. Then your knowledge is perfect. What is the purport? *When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead and His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by doing so have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all*-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord. Jaya, bliss. Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: So? Do you agree or not? (laughter) We welcome scientific knowledge. We don't say that scientific knowledge should be stopped, but it should be utilized to glorify the Lord. Then it is perfect. Otherwise useless. Means you don't get perfection. Perfection is when you scientifically describe the existence of God and His different energies, how they are working. And that is scientist, real scientist. Otherwise, theories, you can give your theory, I'll give you a theory... Temporary. That's all. So everything is there in Bhāgavatam, all knowledge, full knowledge. Vidvān bhāgavata*-vādī. So vidvān means, vidvān means one who has learned Bhāgavata, Bhāgavatam nicely. He's vidvān, factually. So you do not read all these things? Robert Gouiran: I am sorry. Prabhupāda: Always read. So many information are there. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Does this mean, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if the scientists of the world become little bit directed and they use their science to glorify Kṛṣṇa, then they're actually practicing yoga? Prabhupāda: That is success. Their scientific knowledge will be successful when by scientific knowledge they prove that God is the origin of the universe. That is success. That is... Another verse you can read. Idaṁ hi puṁsas... No. That... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: If their science is material, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can they... Prabhupāda: There is nothing material before Kṛṣṇa. Because everything's coming from Kṛṣṇa. One who does not know Kṛṣṇa, it is material. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. Hm. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "O best amongst the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord Hari." Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport. Robert Gouiran: I have the impression that this translation is not very good because when you define the four states of life and you translate the two last ones by..., mainly the last one, by devotion for sannyāsin. Sannyāsin is not devotion. Sannyāsin is... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: I'll read that again. "then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life..." Robert Gouiran: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "...the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life." Robert Gouiran: Oh, yes. Another way of the fourth translation, the fourth one. Yogeśvara: He says that the word sannyāsin should be translated as renunciation instead of devotion. The stage of renunciation, instead of... Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation? Robert Gouiran: Well, normal meaning. Prabhupāda: No meaning? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: The normal meaning. Robert Gouiran: Normal meaning of the word... Prabhupāda: Yes. Robert Gouiran: Usual meaning of the word. Prabhupāda: Yes, What is the usual meaning of the word? First of all you say that... Robert Gouiran: Renunciation is to get freedom. Prabhupāda: Renounce means, renounce means, renounce means to give up. This is the ordinary meaning. Robert Gouiran: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it not? Robert Gouiran: In order to get freedom. Prabhupāda: So... Robert Gouiran: Absolute, absolute freedom. Prabhupāda: So by renouncing you get freedom? Robert Gouiran: Absolute freedom. Prabhupāda: No, no. Absolute freedom, that's all right. Take your meaning. But do you think by renouncing... Suppose you are sitting here. You renounce this place. You get freedom? Robert Gouiran: Uh... Prabhupāda: Does it mean that you get freedom? Robert Gouiran: No. Prabhupāda: Or you are acting as a scientist. You give up that business. Does it mean your freedom? Robert Gouiran: Well, renunciation doesn't mean giving up. Prabhupāda: No, renunciation means giving up. Robert Gouiran: No, no. Prabhupāda: Just find out. So what is the meaning of giving up? Why you should give up? You are occupying some business... Suppose you are working as a scientist. So why should you give it up? Robert Gouiran: Why? Prabhupāda: Yes. If there is a... Robert Gouiran: Because it's... Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation? *Yogeśvara: (Reading from dictionary) It says, "The giving up of things, self*-denial." Prabhupāda: That's right. So renunciation means giving up. So suppose you are working as a scientist. You give up. Then what do you gain by that giving up? Robert Gouiran: Because... Prabhupāda: First of all, why should you give up? Robert Gouiran: To get... To get, to get free... Prabhupāda: "To get." The word is "to get." *Robert Gouiran: Well, I'm not English*-speaking. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is the meaning. You renounce to get something else. Otherwise, what is the meaning of this renunciation. Robert Gouiran: Just in order to get rid of the barriers which blocks the access of the spiritual plane. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotion. To work on the spiritual plane means devotion, devotional service. That is spiritual. Otherwise what is the meaning of renunciation? Suppose you are working as scientist. You renounce. What do you gain? Unless you gain something better, then there is meaning of renouncing. Robert Gouiran: I was taught... Well, if you are speaking about... Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it has no meaning. Robert Gouiran: ...etymology. Prabhupāda: Eh? Robert Gouiran: Devoted means... Yogeśvara: We were speaking about the verse in *Bhāgavatam* that says the perfection of all work is to attain that knowledge of the Supreme. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: And to please Him. Yogeśvara: So that is also the perfection for the sannyāsī; the perfection of his work also is devotion to the Supreme. Prabhupāda: If you renounce something for zero, then what is the value of renunciation: There must be something better. Then you renounce. Otherwise what is the value of renunciation? To become zero? Robert Gouiran: May I ask you what do you think about possibility of healing? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yogeśvara: Healing. Prabhupāda: Healing? Where is healing? You are dying, and where is the healing? Robert Gouiran: You don't think that people could have a gift for healing? Prabhupāda: There is no healing in the material world. There is disease always. There is no question of healing. Their healing is temporary. I am suffering from some disease. You give me some medicine. Does it mean that there will be no more disease? You heal that temporary disease. Again another disease. So where is the healing? So this is to be thought, that... Healing, that is the problem. There is no healing. There is always disease, this disease or that disease. If you prefer this disease heal, you are cured, and there will be no more disease, then you are profited. Another disease. You heal this, another disease. You heal this, another disease. Robert Gouiran: So you think we can't help people? Prabhupāda: Eh? You cannot! Can you help people to stop death? Or to stop disease? Or to stop old age? I am becoming old, can you stop? Robert Gouiran: I think so. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. If you think that you can stop my old age growing, then that is foolishness. It is not possible. Robert Gouiran: I think there is a misunderstanding there. Prabhupāda: No, no. I am... A man grows old, can you stop it? Robert Gouiran: I can't stop time, of course. *Prabhupāda: That is... We are speaking, that you cannot do anything. Even in spite of your so*-called health (indistinct) or old, you cannot stop it. Robert Gouiran: So you don't think that somebody could be an instrument to help other? Prabhupāda: What is that instrument if this instrument is blunt or what is the use of that instrument? Simply possessing one instrument is sufficient? It must work, but if it does not work? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop old age, you cannot stop disease. Robert Gouiran: So you think that all healers are fool? Prabhupāda: I don't say fool, there will be intelligent, but they cannot heal. If you see they cannot heal, still they are very nice, that is your business. We say that he cannot heal. If you say that in spite of his being unable to heal, still he's intelligent, that is your business. I say that he cannot heal. What do you think? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You cannot heal, you cannot stop death. Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot heal. How you can say that you can stop old age, you can heal disease? How you can say? You cannot... You can't stop death, you can't stop birth. You cannot do this. Robert Gouiran: But when somebody has fall down, you can help him to stand. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Fall down, that does not mean you can..., you stop his death or you stop his birth, stop his disease. So point is when I say you cannot heal, that's a fact. That's a fact. You can heal one disease, another disease will appear. Therefore you cannot heal. Robert Gouiran: What do you mean by "you"? What is this "you", who can't heal? I don't... Yogeśvara: Anyone. "You" collectively. Anyone. We're making the distinction between patchwork, covering over of some mis..., some malady, and making a permanent solution. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: You, anyone. Prabhupāda: You means anyone. Robert Gouiran: As a person. Prabhupāda: You are also one of them. Either you or your friend, they cannot. It is impossible. Robert Gouiran: So you mean that nobody should... Prabhupāda: I don't say that. Why do you take in a different way? I say you cannot heal. Robert Gouiran: Cannot heal. Prabhupāda: Now in spite of this fact, if you try to do it, (it's) your business. But I say you cannot heal. If you want to go on, in spite of your inability to heal, that is your business, but I say I challenge that you cannot heal. That is my proposition. Now you go on with your business, that in spite of being unable to heal, if you go on healing activities, you go on. Who takes you? But I say you cannot heal. You are other (indistinct). Nobody can heal. What is that? Is that all right? Yogeśvara: It's very strong. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact. Robert Gouiran: Do you mean that nobody could be cured? Prabhupāda: Where is the cure? Show me that this man is cured from disease. Robert Gouiran: To be better, if he suffers. Prabhupāda: Better, that is everyone is trying, that is... But there is no cure. If you think that temporary cure is better, that's nice, but there is no cure. Robert Gouiran: So do you mean that healing is an illusion? Because healing is a fact. Prabhupāda: But if you cannot cure, then where is that healing? First of all answer this. If you cannot cure, then where is that healing? Robert Gouiran: But healing is a fact of life. I have seen. Prabhupāda: What is that fact? Robert Gouiran: I have seen healings. Prabhupāda: Where is that? You heal some disease, and he gets another disease. Then where is the healing? Robert Gouiran: Temporary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Temporary, he says. Prabhupāda: Temporary, therefore I say you cannot heal. Robert Gouiran: It has been useful... Prabhupāda: It may be temporary... That is struggle for existence. That is said here, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi kartayam (?), they are concocting in the mind that "I am healing," but it is..., there is no healing. Robert Gouiran: Yes. Yogeśvara: You see, it's a question of perspective. In a suffering position you may say that some slight remedy is good, but you've not alleviated the suffering, the suffering is still going on. I remember one time Śrīla Prabhupāda, you gave this example, it was very wonderful. You were saying the United States, they're very proud, "We have so many hospitals with very nice equipment, very, very modern hospitals." But factually that's not advancement, that's suffering. It's an indication that there is suffering going on. So depending on your perspective... Prabhupāda: Now they're saying we have increased so many beds, that means suffering has increased. They are thinking that they have done so good in this so many hospitals, and so many beds have been increased but that means suffering has increased. Otherwise why is the necessity of the beds and the hospitals? Robert Gouiran: Yes. It's not because some American hospital are not healer that healing does not exist. Prabhupāda: No, no, they're trying, everyone is trying to heal, American or Englishman or European, it doesn't matter. Everyone is trying but there is no healing. That is our point. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: He's saying that there is a value to temporary healing. Prabhupāda: That's a... Temporary value, we also give but we say there is no healing. Yogeśvara: Ah, yes, healing in the sense that it will never happen again. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It is in his mind, that he thinks that he is healed. Just like if you have a disease and then you have terrible disease that produces headache and so you take aspirin to relieve the headache, but still the disease is there. So he thinks, "I am O.K. now." Robert Gouiran: Wait, I say that taking aspirin is not a good healing. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: This is example. The disease is still there. Robert Gouiran: Well, but it is by such example that we could be misled. Prabhupāda: That is good thing, that is healing? Do you think honestly, there is healing? There is no disease? Robert Gouiran: I have seen healings. Prabhupāda: What is that you have seen, that he is not diseased? You have seen a man temporarily healed but why he suffers from another disease? Do you guarantee that there will be no disease? Can you guarantee? Robert Gouiran: No more. Prabhupāda: Eh? Robert Gouiran: No, because I don't know anything... Prabhupāda: Then where is the healing? If there is disease, this disease... You simply distinguish from this disease to that disease. Robert Gouiran: So how do you call a temporary... Prabhupāda: That is admitted. That is admitted. I say you may have some temporary healing effect, but there is no healing. That is our point. Robert Gouiran: So you call it temporary healing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. But there is no healing. Robert Gouiran: So what do you think about temporary healing? Prabhupāda: Temporary means temporary healing. That's all. (indistinct) Ultimately, you cannot heal. But you're satisfied by temporary heal. But we want complete healing. No more disease. Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: That is healing. Robert Gouiran: But do you think that some people could have best... better gift for healings, for temporary healings than other? Prabhupāda: For temporary healing or best or worst, it is temporary. Robert Gouiran: But, I mean, do you think some people could have a gift for that? Prabhupāda: He can talk with (indistinct) He do not, he does not understand what I've given. I say there is no healing. Robert Gouiran: Yes. I understand that. Prabhupāda: That's all. But your business is temporary healing. That's all. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: My spiritual master is trying to stress this evening that because we are eternal spirit soul that our real business is not with this temporary body or with temporary cures. And therefore, because we are involved with these temporary struggles, karṣati, we're simply struggling time and time again to make something permanent out of that which is always changing... Robert Gouiran: How do you, why do you eat? It's taking a medicine. Food is a medicine. Prabhupāda: But we don't say that is healing. Temporary relief, that's all. Robert Gouiran: Eating is... You... Prabhupāda: That is not relief. That is temporary appeasement. That is all. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: It's getting late, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees pay obeisances) Prabhupāda: Our point is there is no healing. That is all. Give him some prasādam. (devotees leave) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...that everything is Kṛṣṇa's, therefore it should be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. Prabhupāda: Healing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nothing (indistinct). (end) Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva *Prabhupāda: ...only barrier. The meat*-eaters cannot understand. *Satsvarūpa: He said, "Let us go on to higher topics. We've just been talking so long about meat*-eating." Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: You said: "Well, if you're sinful, there's no question of going on to a higher topic." Prabhupāda: Yes. It is specially mentioned in the Bhāgavata: vinā paśughnāt. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Many churches in Geneva? No. Prabhupāda: No. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Not so many. Prabhupāda: That means godless. Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Prabhupāda: When I first came to America, Butler, in Pennsylvania, that is small county, but at least one dozen churches I found. I very much appreciated, that the people are not... And they're going regularly, churches. I was invited in many churches. I was... Yogeśvara: To lecture? Prabhupāda: Yes. The, the girl, that, my friend's son's wife... He's Indian. He has married an English girl. So I was guest at his house. So that girl, Sally... Selly or Sally? Yogeśvara: Sally. Prabhupāda: She was arranging so many meetings. She was very intelligent girl. So churches, many churches, she... Some of the churches purchased my books. Yogeśvara: Recently, one of our saṅkīrtana parties went to Butler, Pennsylvania, and one of the devotees met a priest on the street. He said: "Oh, yes, I remember your spiritual master. He was here." Prabhupāda: So I was giving lectures. They have churches. That means God conscious persons there. I never criticized church, mosque, never. Because whatever it may be, at least there is God consciousness. So they're good. In details... But when they disobey... I criticize only these rascals, disobey the commandments. Otherwise, we have no... We don't criticize. Yogeśvara: We're not sectarian. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: We're not sectarian. *Prabhupāda: Why? God is one. Why we shall be sectarian? According to his circumstances, he is doing. And that prayer is also bhakti, offering prayer. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanaṁ vandanam [SB 7.5.23]. This vandana is prayer. So that is bhakti, one of the items of bhakti. Yogeśvara: Everyone needs to be encouraged. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Everyone needs to be encouraged in their God consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ sakhyam ātma-nivedanam. Bhaktiś cen nava-lakṣaṇā. Bhakti is demonstrated in nine different symptoms. So vandanam, offering prayers, that is bhakti. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is it required for them to have a spiritual master to guide them? Prabhupāda: Certainly. These rascals, the priest, they do not guide them. They are also fallen. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice. If they follow. So many times they asked me. "Yes, if you follow your Christian religion, you'll be perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu proved devotional service from Koran. Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The Khān Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Yes. So it requires the devotee who can explain from any godly literature about God. How rascal they are! "Jesus Christ ate fish. Therefore we shall maintain big, big slaughterhouse." Just see the argument. Then, in the Bengali, mosa makta kanan (?). There was a mosquito, and one is asking, "Bring a cannon." "Bring a cannon." Mosa makta kanan. Jesus Christ ate somewhere. There was no food available to eat, might have. Accepting he ate, but that, does it mean that you have to maintain slaughterhouse? Just see. And besides that, he might have done anything. He's powerful. He can eat. Therefore the other day I said, "He can eat the whole world." But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction. That is Christianity. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Many of the young people now, they look to the Bible for instruction, but they don't like to go to church at all. They feel that the church is hypocritical. Prabhupāda: Hypocritical, simply hypocritical. All these priests and cardinals and popes, they're all hypocritical. Getting high, highly salaried, high salaries, and drinking wine. And in America there is a hospital, five thousand drunkard priests are admitted there to cure their drinking habit. That was published in a paper. And they're sanctioning man to man marriage. That was published in that, what is that? Watch? Satsvarūpa: Watchtower? Prabhupāda: Watchtower. Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They did a survey among the Catholic priests... Prabhupāda: What is this? They do not fight. Why there is soldier? (laughter) What nonsense. Why there are soldiers? The neutral? 1939. This is Second World War. And First World War, 19... Yogeśvara: (reading) "Dedicated to the soldiers of Geneva who died in the service of their country." Prabhupāda: So that means it was attacked? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Probably defending banks or things like that. Civil. Prabhupāda: Two wars, 1914 to 1918. Swiss Devotee: They have big military poems. Yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Swiss Devotee: Many, many. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: We read in the papers, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they did a survey among the Capucine priests and fifty percent felt that their spiritual life was hampered by the fact that they could not have intimate relations with women. And forty percent felt that they were not allowed enough freedom and that obedience was not good. Prabhupāda: Not allowed in...? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Enough freedom. Prabhupāda: What is that freedom? Yogeśvara: Illicit principles. Sinful principles. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...fig, there are thousands of seeds. And each seed contains a tree like that. And there are thousands of fruits, figs. Where is that chemist who can prepare such figs? One, in Delhi, when our festival was going on, we invited a big chemist. He admitted that "Our chemical advance, scientific advancement is like this." He explained very nicely. You were present? Yogeśvara: Where? Prabhupāda: In Delhi? He said that a man who has learned the art to, what is called, barking like dog, and people will go to see, purchasing ticket, ten rupees, twenty rupees, how the man is barking like a dog. And there are so many dogs barking. They won't see. This is our advancement. If a man has artificially learned how to bark, they'll go to see by paying fees. And the natural barking, they don't care. So these rascals are like that. They're trying to manufacture life. And so many life is coming by nature's process, millions and millions, that is no credit. And he's trying, utopian, he'll create life by chemical combination, he's given all credit, Nobel Prize: "Oh, here is a man." This is rascaldom. So what credit you'll get. Suppose if you can manufacture a man or an animal in the laboratory, where is your credit? There are many millions and millions are coming automatically. We are trying to give credit to Kṛṣṇa who is making all this creation. Yogeśvara: There is one Englishman named Aldous Huxley... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: ...who wrote a book called "Brave New Worlds", and in that book, he predicted something that's coming true now, that there would be a process of biologically screening babies so that men could be breeded like animals, like they breed animals. So they would take one strain of chromosomes and breed a class of men who would make perfect administrators, and then they would breed another class of men that would be perfect śūdras, and they would breed another class of men who would be perfect scientists. *Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa*-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony. Satsvarūpa: Yesterday you said when one becomes initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, his body changes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Even if he was mleccha, he can become brāhmaṇa. Yogeśvara: Actually, the chemists also say that there are four types of blood, A, AB, O, and something like that. They give it four names. Prabhupāda: And according to Hindu system, the marriage was taking place finding, examining the girl's constitution and the boy's constitution so that there may not be disruption. Everything was there. Yogeśvara: The Vedic system is so scientific. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is human civilization. That is Āryan civilization. Vedic civilization means Āryan. *Yogeśvara: Hitler also wanted to produce a pure breed of Āryans, but artificially. He just said anyone who is German*-born, they are the pure Āryans. Prabhupāda: But so much freedom in sex, how the blood can be pure? [break] *Yogeśvara: ...but Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam? Prabhupāda: Then he's neutral always. He's not affected by all these qualities. Yogeśvara: I guess the blood becomes purified like that. [break] Prabhupāda: I said that "You scientists, you are simply wasting time." Did I not say that, last night? Yogeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Childish. Just imitating barking of the dog. That's all. And he wants to take credit by imitating barking the dog. And the real dog is barking*-no attention. Actually, that is the position. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They say that if a dog bites a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's nothing special, but if a man bites a dog, that's news. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Yes. Just like the men ate some human flesh. That became news. Yogeśvara: That airplane crash. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their business. [break] ...is when the dog barks, that is not science. When the man barks like a dog, that is science. Is that not? The man, how scientifically he has learned how to bark like a dog. This is their aim, how to imitate dog*-barking. This is scientific. Satsvarūpa: On a morning walk in Los Angeles, Svarūpa Dāmodara said they are now going to produce babies in a test tube, and you said "But that's already being done in the womb. That's a very nice test tube." He said, "But he'll get a Nobel Prize." So that's the example. Nature's already doing it nicely. [break] Prabhupāda: ...produce even a green grass like this in the laboratory, what to speak of other things. Yogeśvara: If producing life was worthy of a Nobel Prize, then they should give every mother in the world a Nobel Prize. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (pause) Yogeśvara: Actually, I think they should give you the Nobel Prize. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: You've been creating devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh, I, I am natural dog, and they'll not give me prize. (laughs) They'll give prize to the artificial dog. Yogeśvara: Bad imitation. Satsvarūpa: (about statues?) There is that Pan god again, imitating Kṛṣṇa with a flute and standing like that. Prabhupāda: And what is this? Yogeśvara: He's naked, though. Satsvarūpa: That's some goddess of music with a harp. (pause) [break] *Prabhupāda: ...brain, they have created something, but it will be used for sinful activities: drinking wine, meat*-eating and sex. Not for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Duṣkṛtina. They use their brain, but for sinful activities. This is duṣkṛtina. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: There's the verse in the Second Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā that what is night for the materialistic man is the time of awakening for the introspective sage. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: These scientists, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that their research is neutral, and it is not their fault that the use of their discoveries is detrimental. Like that man yesterday, he said, "It is not my bomb." Prabhupāda: Oh, then whose bomb? Yogeśvara: Well, their point is, like, for example, Albert Einstein. His idea wasn't to create the atomic bomb, but with his theories, the government agencies had men produce the bomb. So they're saying: "Why should you blame us for all the chaos and havoc? All we're doing is simply researching nature." Prabhupāda: This is child? Satsvarūpa: He has got animal hoofs, though. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: From the waist down, he's an animal. He has hoofs instead of feet. Yogeśvara: What are they called? Satsvarūpa: Centaur? Yogeśvara: Centaur, centaur. Satsvarūpa: That's in the Greek... [break] *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...if they give up the four sinful activities, then they might be able to understand the Vedic philosophy. So does this imply...? Prabhupāda: Not Vedic philosophy. They will understand God. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So does this mean that by their activities that they're engaging in now their incentive is that they want to enjoy these four sinful activities...? And that really they're not looking for truth? That's... Prabhupāda: They have no inquiry for truth. Animal life. As soon as there will be inquiry for the truth, that is human life. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They will naturally perform some tapasya? Prabhupāda: Yes, then other things will follow. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. They do not inquire. That means animal life. As soon as there is inquiry, jijñāsu, jñānī jijñāsu... They're not jijñāsu even. Neither jñānī. (pause) The path must be very old. The trees are very aged. (pause) [break] Satsvarūpa: ...yesterday said, when you said that one must be pure before he approaches God, they said, "That's spiritual pride." They said, "That is not good to say first we have to be pure. Like egoism," they said. Prabhupāda: They'll tolerate material egoism, "We are doing this humanitarian service." That they... And spiritual egoism he'll not. That I replied, that this is real egoism, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. And I'm: "Ahaṁ dog asmi." (laughter) That is not very good pride. [break] Why not make one world? That I said to to that man. Why do they not do that? Everything belongs to God. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In the Vedic times also, just a few thousand years ago, there was one monarch also, one king. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they were subordinate to him. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: But now, countries like Switzerland, they're afraid that if there is one kingdom, they will lose their standard of living. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Their nice standard of living will be lost. *Prabhupāda: No, why? The standard of living should be one: plain living and God consciousness. That is the disease. Everyone wants to enjoy this material world to his best capacity. Therefore we divide. They don't want to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Material consciousness. Enjoyment of the senses. And that is the cause of their suffering. Only on account of this sense gratification, they're creating different mentality, and, after death, they're getting different body. That they do not know. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. One is trying to associate with the goodness, brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa qualification, he'll be promoted, and one who is trying to imitate, "I shall be as powerful as the tiger," he'll be degraded. It is nature's law. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one person asked the other day that "You say that we have a choice, that either we can surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or we can remain under the control of the external energy." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: And his question was that those in the mode of passion and ignorance, do they have any choice? Prabhupāda: Everyone has choice. Everyone has choice. Choice, but under the control. Exactly like that. By your choice, you go to the prison house. By your choice, you go to the university. There is supreme control, government. But it is your choice, whether you want to live in the prison or in the university. that is your choice. Government does not say that "Oh, this man will come to the university, and this man will go to the prison house." No. You make your choice, you work according to that, and government sends you either to the prison or to the university. You cannot say... One man is condemned to be killed for murdering, another man is rewarded some prize, you cannot say government is partial. You have made your choice, and government is giving you the result. (pause) Once you make your choice to steal, then you are under prison house. Immediately. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Choice to...? Prabhupāda: To steal. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Steal. *Prabhupāda: Then immediately you are under prison. It will take some time only. Just like if you infect some disease, It will take some time to manifest, but it will be manifested. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgaḥ. So in the, in the... Ordinarily, you can steal and hide yourself, but in the eyes of God, you cannot steal and hide yourself. That is not possible. You have stolen; you must suffer. (end) Morning Walk -- June 8, 1974, Geneva *Prabhupāda: Ignorances. They have opined, they have given the opinion that children born between the ages of twenty years and thirty*-six years, they are healthy. But we have got experience that children born even at..., in India, twelve, thirteen years, they were healthy. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They were what, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Satsvarūpa: The parents were twelve or thirteen. The children were healthy. But this magazine said that children are healthy if the parents are from twenty*-one to thirty-six. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In the Bhāgavatam, you said that by the age of sixteen, a girl should be married, or twenty-four for a man. We were just reading that... Prabhupāda: That is the maximum. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: We were just reading that. *Prabhupāda: The point is that supposing this twenty to thirty*-six years is nice age... For women. But before twenty years, she is sacked, and her health is broken. What she'll produce, children? Because this is... The girls, from twelve years, thirteen years, nowadays, they begin sex. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That's true. Prabhupāda: Is it not? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That's true. Prabhupāda: So before she reaches twenty years, twenty times she must have taken contraceptive method. And that means her health is ruined. What she'll produce? They are given in the schools, colleges, contraceptive tablets. And they are prohibiting, "Don't get child before twenty years." What is this nonsense? This is the difficulty. All rascals, they have taken leadership. Women should, should be allowed to beget children as soon as they're able. But as soon as the pregnancy is there, there should not be any sex life. They have got sex life in pregnancy also. So many things, we have... We can guide them all, all these rascals. From śāstra, we can guide them. Therefore immediately human society, a class of men who are fully conversant with the Vedic conclusion required to guide these rascals, socially, politically, in every respect. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They say that they have made studies, Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They have made studies and that if a woman gives birth at the age less than twenty there are more chances that she die according to their statistics. *Prabhupāda: Their statistics in the western world... Inductive knowledge is always imperfect. They have not seen in India. My wife gave birth at the age of fourteen years. She is still living. She is ten years younger than me. So sixty*-eight, sixty-nine, she is. She gave birth child at the age of fourteen. In 1918 I was married, and 1921 she gave birth the child, my first son. And she was never unhealthy; *neither she had to go to the hospital for maternity hell. Natural delivery of child. Hare Kṛṣṇa. This illicit sex, even with wife... If sex life is indulged after the period of menstruation, that is also illicit sex. There are so many rules and regulations about sex life in Vedic culture. That is real use of sex life. In the Bhagavad*-gītā, sex life, He says that dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. "Sex life which is under regulative principle of the Vedic knowledge," Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that sex life. I am that sex life." And beyond that, that is illicit sex life. And yesterday I was reading that dharma... When there is irreligious sex, then it increases varṇa-saṅkara, unwanted population. So the modern civilization, they're letting loose the women for prostitution, and they want nice children. That is not possible. Why this park is kept like this? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: It's more of a forest, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: But this is surprising. Generally, they cut. Nitāi: In Los Angeles, you were saying about the system of monogamy, how in this way most of the women are left unmarried. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is prostitution. If a man... First of all, the problem is... That they do not know, that they should produce sufficient food grains. These, all these contraceptive methods, this and that, monogamy, they are trying for checking population. Is it not? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The basic principle is to check population. Now, if they follow the Vedic principles, automatically the population is checked. Just like brahmacārī. So if the, both the boys and girls remain brahmacārī, then where is the unwanted population? Where is the question of this contraceptive method? Nitāi: No need. *Prabhupāda: No need. Then when the brahmacārī is allowed to become gṛhastha, he can keep more than one wife if he's able to provide them nicely. Here they marry today and tomorrow divorce. The... No meaning of marriage. Simply prostitution. Because he does not need a wife. His sex life is satisfied in so many ways. So why he should be affected, attached to wife? And why the wife should be attached to the husband? Therefore divorce. It is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Dam-patye ratim eva hi. In the Kali-yuga, married life means sex life. For sex satisfaction, they'll marry. Otherwise, there is no need of marrying. That is... Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage means that they, both of them agree that "We shall live together for some time." These things are happening, already foretold. By agreement, "Yes, we shall live together." That is marriage. "And then I may divorce." Actually, they do not know what is the meaning of marriage. All dependent on sex. Rati. Rati means... Dam-patye ratim eva hi. Vipratve sūtram eva hi: "To become brāhmaṇa means just have a thread only." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Even big scientists and politicians, same thing. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. It is a civilization of rascals. That's all. That duṣkṛtina. Duṣkṛtina means they have got merit. As human being, everyone has got merit. That is used for sinful activities. That's all. Duṣkṛtina. Therefore they are godless. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. All these sinful men, rascals, they don't care for God. They don't care for next life. This is the position. They don't believe in these things. If they believe in these things, they'll have to be systematized. They don't want that. The life is, what is called, extravagancy? No? Now it is a... Systematically they are following. The karmīs, they work hard, whole week, and the end of the weekend, they call any beautiful woman, pay her something, don't take responsibility of family life. This has become a system. Is it not? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: This is why the women wish to have the same rights as the men because they're not being taken care of at home. Prabhupāda: Animal life. (pause) What are these trees? Oak tree? No. Nitāi: Yeah, oaks. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: Some of them are oaks. (pause) Prabhupāda: We can get out from this? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. [break] *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...Vedic culture, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if there was illicit sex going on? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In Vedic culture, what would King Parīkṣit do? Prabhupāda: We don't find any illicit sex. They were having more than one wife. So there was no question of illicit sex. If one wife is pregnant, then the man, he goes to another wife. Man has got that tendency. So as soon as she is pregnant, she is kept separate. Even we have seen. When the girl is pregnant, she goes to her mother's care, does not live with the husband. What is that? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Off in the distance. *Prabhupāda: A girl is pregnant, suppose, then, during her pregnancy period, ten months, there is no sex, and unless the child becomes six months old, there is no sex. The thing is that in the modern world, sex life has become the only pleasure. They do not know anything else. Therefore everything is discredited. And another thing is they are afraid of keeping more than one wife for population. But if they produce sufficient food, where is the question of overpopulation? Another thing they have made, especially in the western world, they don't want to produce food because they know, "We shall kill one animal and eat. Why take so much trouble? Let me increase industry, and I shall push my button. Money will come. And the slaughterhouse there. We shall eat." So they are getting money. By money, they are getting women to the choice. They are getting food, meat, and they're enjoying drinking. So money has become the whole thing. "Bring money some way or other and enjoy." This is the purport of civilization. They do not care what is God, that human body is meant for God realization. They have no such ideas. "There is nothing after death. So so long I am living, let me enjoy by the tongue, by the genital and by the belly. Use the tongue for eating anything which is palatable, which I like. Never mind what it is. And then genital also. Bring as many women..." This is civilization, modern. There is no question of sinful life or pious life, next life. (laughs) Another, their theory is that only on this planet there is living entities... [break] If there is sufficient rain in the desert, it will be also hot. [break] ...tells us in the śāstras how to live comfortably and advance in spiritual life. And they should give advice to others. That is the business of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Lokānāṁ hita*-kāriṇau. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. This is the description of the Gosvāmīs. They are well versed in all different types of Vedic scriptures just to establish a peaceful society sad-dharma, very nice gentleman, peaceful society. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau, for the benefit of the whole human society. Therefore they are honored all over the world. This is gosvāmī business, not to exploit (indistinct) live like irresponsible man, eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, their philosophy is that this is all there is, this life. After death, it's finished. And so they're trying to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So if they have information that this is not the only life, then won't they automatically become more austere? Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) consider what kind of life I'm going to get. (indistinct) They have made their own rascal philosophy that there is no life after death. Although they're experiencing that I am changing my body in this duration of life. I know that I have a child's body, child's body. That body's finished. Still I'm existing. So why I shall not exist after this body's finished? Where is the logic? Where is the... The simple logic they cannot understand. So dull brain. And they're advanced in civilization, big, big professor, big, big Indologist, this logic. The simple reason they cannot understand. What did they say? You have talked to many men about this logic? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: About life after death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: They say it doesn't go beyond... They have to agree that the baby's body is gone and the young man's body is gone. They have to agree. But they say that that doesn't mean logically that I have to take another body. Prabhupāda: What is the other logic? If you have changed your body so many times, why not change this body? What is your reason? Natural course it should be that I have changed so many bodies so this body I shall change. This is natural logic. And what is his logic? Satsvarūpa: So he said... They say it may be or it may not be. Prabhupāda: But that is your rascaldom. But this is the real logic. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They also say that it is not... It is the same body, more or less... Prabhupāda: Same body... *Guru*-gaurāṅga: But it is just developed, but it is not a different body. Prabhupāda: No. Developed means different body. Development means different body. They cannot say it is not different body. Then if it is not different, then go to childhood again. That means they're not human being. Human being means with logic. According to their definition, man is rational animal. They're not even rational. Like cats and dogs. There is no rationality. Cats and dogs also they have got rationality. Logic plus authority, Kṛṣṇa says. How you can deny? That means they don't agree with Kṛṣṇa's instruction. You see? This logic, I am not giving this logic. This logic is given by Kṛṣṇa. So unless... The difficulty is that unless they accept the authority, it is very difficult. Logic is there. The authority is there. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They feel, Prabhupāda, that they've been cheated so much by so many philosophies that when we say that the Vedas are written by a person who's not contaminated by the modes of nature, they say, "Well, how is this possible? My experience is that everyone who's written books, they're all materialistic and therefore the philosophy must be like that." Prabhupāda: But you must be following some philosophy. You're not without philosophy. Even the hippies they're also follow... They've got their own philosophy. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you cannot give up philosophy. Now it is misfortune that you met with the cheaters. So make your fortune now. Believe in Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. Then you'll be happy. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: That argument that we don't believe... But you're believing in Lenin's philosophy, the communist. And what is this hippies, their philosophy, Allen Ginsberg's philosophy? Ha? Debauch number one. (laughter) Satsvarūpa: Ultimately, they don't follow anyone, although they may like people, they... Prabhupāda: No, they follow. Devotee: They say our only... Prabhupāda: But they are manufacture their own philosophy. Philosophy there must be. They've become their own authority. That is a chaotic condition. Authority he has made himself. Yes. I am my authority. Authority has to accept. But he does not know that I am fool No. 1, what is the value of my authority? Authority he must accept. But he makes himself his authority. That is the tendency now. "In my opinion." All rascals say like that. "In my opinion." He does not... He's rascal No. 1, what is the value of his opinion? But he'll say, "In my opinion." That is the difficulty. And this is called creative philosophy. Is it not? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is going on. All rascals have creative philosophy. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: When I hear in the United States there's a saying, a slogan, amongst the young people: "Do your own thing." And also in India now when I go there they say, "So many men, so many minds." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Vivekananda. Yata mata tata patha. That means everyone can become authority. This is their philosophy. Satsvarūpa: And this they praised as good. Prabhupāda: Ha? Satsvarūpa: And others praise this as... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Very tolerant, liberal. Prabhupāda: : Yes, but our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa says, "You rascal, give up everything. Just surrender unto Me." This is our philosophy. "You rascal, you give up everything and surrender unto Me." This is our philosophy. Devotee: Haribol. *Prabhupāda: Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam [Bg. 18.66]. He's decrying this Vivekananda philosophy. Rascal philosophy. There was a suggestion when I (indistinct) international, I was going to register, they suggested, "Why don't you make God conscious? Why you make Kṛṣṇa conscious?" And if I had made God conscious so many rascals will bring so many Gods. Therefore specifically only Kṛṣṇa God. That's all. That is authorized. If you like, you take other's God. But this is our philosophy, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Was it not wise conclusion? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Yes. Prabhupāda: If I have made a little liberal, God conscious, all rascals would have brought... "Here is my God." To stop this nonsense I made it Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa is God only. Nobody is God. If you like this philosophy, come others' God. I don't want your cooperation. What is the use of cooperation of some rascaldom? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: That man yesterday wanted to know if we collaborated with other groups. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is collaboration. We are proposing this collaboration. All religion, they're after... Religion means to accept God. So if you accept God, we accept God. Then where is no cooperation? This is cooperation. But if you don't know what is God, we know. That is the difference. Ask this Christians, Mohammedans, and any other religious group, they have got a conception of God, ask them what is the form of God, what does He do, what is His..., so many things. They do not know. But we know. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They simply say He is spirit. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all, vague idea. We say, "Here is God." So if you actually believe in God, why don't you take this God and the whole, all different types of religions become one? If you accept God, then we say, "Here is God." So where is the point of difference? How do you differ? Why do you say that you are different religion, my religion? Why do you say, "My religion"? Everyone... This is the only religion: to know God and love Him. What is their objection? To accept God, Kṛṣṇa? What is their object? What is their reason? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They want to gratify their senses. Prabhupāda: Why do you make a different God? If you actually believe in God, I say, "Here is God." Why don't you accept? Eh? Satsvarūpa: Impersonalism. They don't want... Prabhupāda: That is not God. God is person. That means you do not know God. Devotee: They say Jesus Christ is God too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesus Christ is God. That's right. But Jesus Christ said, "I'm son of God." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. He said, "I'm at the right hand of the Father." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So he's different from the Father. Prabhupāda: Even not different. But he says that he's son of God. We accept it. Why there are so many religions? If religion means acceptance of God, then here is God. Then make one religion. Why so many different religions? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: In America there are two new sects, religious sects, that appear every month. Prabhupāda: Every month. Different sect. Devotee: Two. Prabhupāda: Every month, what do you mean by every month? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Every month there are two new religious sects that appear. Prabhupāda: Oh. And they'll accept God? *Guru*-gaurāṅga: Well, they invent their own God their own way. In Europe they laugh at the Americans and their religions because they know this. Prabhupāda: If religion, new religion, that means new God? Or what it is? Satsvarūpa: New way of approaching God. Prabhupāda: But you want to approve God, if we agree to that, then this is the easiest process. You chant God's name and you approach. Why again new? This is the easiest proposition. Eh? Chant God's name and you approach. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā it says that those who are different modes of nature, they have different types of charity and different types of religion. So does this mean religions that are already established in the Vedas or... *Prabhupāda: That is means conditional religion. That is not absolute religion. In order to, what is called, summarize all types of religion... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ, "Everyone is trying to come to Me." So they are coming by different paths. So that is accepted. Now, when he says that "I am here. You're coming to Me, now you just surrender. Then everything is all right." Why don't you accept that? Why do you insist, "No, I shall come in a different way, different path"? What is this nonsense? God is saying "All right, you have got different paths, but give up that. Now simply surrender to Me." Where I am objection? If I am a really lover of God, God is saying like that, why not accept that? Why shall I pay for different paths? Eh? Suppose in this jungle you are scattered and you are searching "Where is Prabhupāda? Where is Prabhupāda?" And somebody says, "Come this way. Come this way." And if I say, "Not this way, that way. Come here. Come here." What is your objection? Eh? Either you don't want me... (laughs) Eh? You don't want me. You want to play some whimsical way. You are not serious about me? If you're actually serious about God, God says here, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām e... [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up all this nonsense. Just surrender un..." Why they do not accept it. Eh? What is your answer, Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I think your answer's that they want to play a kind of hide and seek. They don't really want to go. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their foolishness. They don't want to go. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They say they would rather search than find. Prabhupāda: But search. That's all right. Search means you do not know, therefore searching. But if you're searching for something and you get that something then why you should search any more? Searching means you do not know. You're searching. But if I say "Come here. I am here." Just like child is crying. There is no toys, his mother... Mother says, "Child, come here." He comes here. That's all. That is real searching. Or what is this searching? Either you do not know what you are searching or you are making a false play. Devotee: Right. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Is this one bathroom? Religion means actually relation with God, to know God. They don't think like that. They say religion does not mean search of God. Is it not? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They say that there's one place that you cannot see God. Prabhupāda: That's all right but what do you mean by religion first of all? I cannot see God. That is another thing. But that does not mean there is no God. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: I cannot see the president. That does not mean there is no president. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Because I cannot see therefore there's no president. Is that very good logic? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: You may not see. You're unfit to see. You're not qualified to see. But why there shall be no God? Satsvarūpa: I was taught that that is God's nature, invisible spirit. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: I was taught in religion that God... That is His nature, not that I can't see Him, but He is a person. But that I can't see Him because He's invisible spirit. Prabhupāda: Invisible. That means you have no eyes to see. Even if He is spirit. That's all right. But invisible means you have no capacity to see. That is the meaning of invisible. That I cannot see. So you're disqualified, that does not mean He's dis... not visible. He's visible but not to you because you have no eyes to see Him. That we also say. Therefore we have to prepare the eyes to see. That is religion. I cannot see at the present moment that does not mean I shall stop (indistinct). I must prepare myself how to see. That is real intelligence. (end) Morning Walk -- June 9, 1974, Paris Bhagavān: ...too simple. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they do not take it. Just like homeopathic medicine. You know homeopathic medicine? Bhagavān: Oh, homeopathic medicine. *Prabhupāda: Yes, simply water. So they do not like to take it. Actually, they do not want God. They want māyā. Otherwise, if anyone wants God, Kṛṣṇa, there is no difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, mām evaiśyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. "Just always think of Me," man-manā. Mad-bhaktaḥ: "Just become My devotee." Mad-yājī: "You worship Me. And offer your obeisances unto Me. If you do simply these four things, then you are coming back to Me without any doubt." These four things. But they cannot do it or will not do it. Otherwise, very simple. We are thinking of something always. Simply we have to replace Kṛṣṇa. No. They'll think so many other things except Kṛṣṇa. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, it is not at all difficult. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They'll make a program: "Thoughtlessness." That lady was... Bhagavān: To become thoughtless. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are disgusted with this material thought, therefore they want to make it zero. But that is not possible. You must think of something. But they have no spiritual idea. They do not know what is spiritual thinking. They think that "Make it zero. These thoughts, let us make it zero." Just like a diseased man, suffering for, from the very beginning of his life... Then, if somebody suggests that "When you'll be cured, you'll very nicely eat, nicely walk and nicely think," so he's coming to the stage of diseased condition, "Again thinking? Again eating? Again lying down on bed? Then what is the difference? No, no. It must be zero: no eating, no sleeping, no bedding, nothing." He's thinking like that. Because he has got bad experience of his diseased condition, he thinks, "Again if there is eating, again if there is walking, then how it can be cured?" He cannot think of. These rascals, because they have no idea what is spiritual thinking, they want to make this thinking zero only. That's all. Śūnyavādī. They are called Śūnyavādī, nirvāṇa, Buddhist philosophy. "Your body is subjected to pains and pleasure; so dismantle this body." This is Buddha philosophy. "Make it zero. There will be no more pains and pleasure." "You have got some trouble in the eyes? Pluck it out." He does not know how to cure it. He simply knows, "Pluck it out." This is their philosophy. Asatyere satya kari māni. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song. Yogeśvara: There's a path that leads to the lake here. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Eh? Bhagavān: There's not enough room for everyone there. Prabhupāda: What is that? Bhagavān: There's a small path, but it's not very big. We can continue around this way. Bhagavān: [break] ... complicated solution to the problem. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No. These rascals, they do not know that our process is most difficult. Because as soon as ask them that "Give up meat*-eating," it is very difficult task for them. And actually, it is very difficult for them. You see? That gentleman in Geneva, as long as I was talking about meat-eating, he became little disgusted. Satsvarūpa: He said, "Why don't we speak of higher principles?" Prabhupāda: Yeah. Because this is the beginning of higher principles. "No, no, this may let... Let it remain. Let us go to the higher principles." The rascal does not know that you cannot go without learning A,B,C,D, how you can ask for passing M.A. examination? But "No, I do not know A,B,C,D, but let me go for passing M.A. examination." You see. This is A,B,C,D, that yeṣām anta gatam... Any sinful man, he cannot understand about God. It is not possible. Paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. But without being pavitra, they want to go to the platform of understanding God. Yogeśvara: Just like that Gene Herbert. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: Just like that Sanskritist in Geneva. Prabhupāda: Yes. "I, I am smoking. I do not like to give it up." (laughter) You see. Bhagavān: I think from here we have to walk on the sidewalk. There may be cars coming. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: Let Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: It is very, very difficult for them. To give up intoxication, especially in the western countries. That Lord Zetland, Marquis of Zetland, when one of my godbrothers went to London for preaching, so Lord Zetland said, "Can you make me a brāhmaṇa?" And then he said, "Yes, why not? You have to give up these things: no illicit sex, no intoxication." He said, "Oh, it is impossible. For us, it is impossible." So actually, these four prohibitory rules is impossible for these rascals. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They would rather die than give them up, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Even our men, after so much training, they're also falling down. It is so difficult thing. Actually, it is the most difficult thing. Bhagavān: Is the path down at the lake very big? Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Bhagavān: Would you like to walk down by the lake or is this...? Prabhupāda: No, no. It is all right. In India, also, although they are vegetarian, they cannot give up smoking even beedie. They cannot give up chewing pan. You see? This is very difficult task. I was thinking when I first came that as soon as I propose these things, because I have got experience that Lord Zetland said, "It is impossible," what they, they'll accept? And I'll have to go back again. But I did not make any compromise. Just like other rascal yogis and swamis, they say, "Yes, yes. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever... You practice nose pressing. That's all. And give me my fees. Then you'll (indistinct)." This is not possible. Bhagavān: When you had your talk several years ago with the professor in Russia, he made the point, when you were discussing about the regulative principles, that if you follow these principles, then your life becomes very simple, and if you don't follow these principles, life becomes very complicated. He appreciated that one point. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will appreciate. Our... Anartha*-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Without anartha-nivṛtti... Anartha-nivṛtti means stopping all unwanted things. Anartha. Anartha means which does not give us any profit and unnecessarily we are accustomed. Suppose we do not take any intoxicant. So what is our inconvenience? But people are spending millions and millions of dollars only for smoking. Therefore it is useless, anartha. But they cannot give it up. And condition is that without anartha-nivṛtti, there cannot be attachment for God. Bhagavān: What is the best way to gradually get them detached? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: The best way to gradually get them detached? *Prabhupāda: Bhajana*-kriyā. Therefore bhajana-kriyā, sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], association with devotees and stick to the devotional program. Just like devotional program we have got. Bhajana-kriyā. This is called bhajana-kriyā. One cannot be slack in the process of devotional service. Then it will be... Vidhi-mārga, the regulative principles: chant sixteen rounds, rise early in the morning, have maṅgala-ārātrika, read books, take your bath-these are the process. Bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana means devotional service, and kriyā... The yogis, they call kriyā-yoga. So this lake is dirty water, eh? Bhagavān: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Drain water. Bhagavān: Generally, all these rivers, everywhere now, are all contaminated. Prabhupāda: That means the mode of civilization is so nice that everything is becoming contaminated. And why not the people? They're also contaminated. Bhagavān: That is called madness when they... Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Madness when they keep creating things which are hurting them, but they don't stop. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā. Māyā is very strong. Bhagavān: We can go down this way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] ...different countries, they are very careful. When foreigners come, if they bring some fruit, "No, no. You cannot take it within." And they keep the lakes contaminated. You cannot bring in one fruit, but you can keep the whole lake contaminated. This is their intelligence. Why they are contaminating? Eh? Bhagavān: All the factories. Prabhupāda: Their very business is contaminated, factories. [break] Even the sea has become contaminated. Bhagavān: The sea? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Yeah. Prabhupāda: In Long Island and those places, if you go, the sea, the sea is so dirty. Nitāi: In New York, they're anticipating a crisis because for many years, they've been taking all their trash and rubbish and putting it out in the sea. And now that whole part of the sea is coming in towards land, very, very contaminated. Bhagavān: Yes. The article said that they dump their garbage in a certain area, and nothing can grow there except the most poisonous bacteria. And now that whole business is moving back towards the population. *Prabhupāda: Reaction. Everything... Yajñārthe karmaṇo yatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Whatever you do, you are bound up by the reaction. That is nature's law. [break] ...and occasionally there will be big war, and they'll kill themselves. That's all. Now they are killing animals. That is a separate from human being. But time will come, the human beings, they will kill themselves, one another. Not only one, two, but wholesale. Daily, millions or thousands will be killed. They want to avoid war. For that reason, they invented the United Nations. Eh? Bhagavān: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So why they want to avoid war? What is the reason? Bhagavān: For avoiding war? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: They want to maintain their pleasure. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why encroach upon others' pleasure? Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam [Īśo mantra 1]. *Īśopaniṣad* says, "Don't encroach upon others' pleasure." Bhagavān: Because they have no spiritual idea or spiritual pleasure, they can never be satisfied. So they're always envious. Prabhupāda: So there is no coconut tree, mango tree, banana tree. Huh? These are all useless tree, simply for becoming fuel. That's all. They're also condemned. Yes. Sinful trees. There are pious trees and sinful trees. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) We have to go straight? (pause) This park is bigger than that Golden Gate Park? Bhagavān: Oh yeah. Prabhupāda: Eh? (pause) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says that "One who is always active within is very dear to Me." Does this mean we should struggle to keep our minds engaged all the time in Kṛṣṇa's service. Prabhupāda: Active within? Active within? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "Active within." Prabhupāda: What is that, "active within"? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It is in the Third Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: "Active within." What is that "active within"? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Thinking of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is very good. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatenāntarātmanā. Yes. We should be always active in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, within or without. That is wanted. Antar bahiḥ. Satsvarūpa: Yogeśvara is going to give me a whole collection. Bhagavān: So we can walk to the car through here. Will there come a time when people will become disgusted with the scientists and reject them? *Prabhupāda: No. They'll more and more forget Kṛṣṇa. This is Kali*-yuga. On account of these blind leaders. Don't you see that this rascal Darwin's theory, that is very much appreciated? Any movement which tries to get out God, very much appreciated, that is very much appreciated. That is scientific. "You forget God," that is scientific. And as soon as you speak of God, "You are primitive, old type." That's all. "You are conservative." That, another rascal, Allen Ginsberg, he was speaking, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) [break] Bhagavān: ...discuss that the fact that when people die in different modes of nature, how they come back, and you say that (if) people die in the mode of passion, they come back in human life, if they die in the mode of ignorance, they come back in demonic species of life. So the people today seem to be... Is it that they'll all come back as animals in their next life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: How does a person come back in... What merits a person coming back in human life? It seems like an elevated birth. How does mode of passion give one the opportunity of human life? *Prabhupāda: Generally, people are mixed, rajas*-tamas. So human life, also, they're animals like. They cannot understand anything. Just like when we speak of "Don't eat meat," they become angry. So what is this human life? It is simply in the form of human life. They give example that "There are many animals; they eat flesh. Therefore why we shall not eat?" The other day, the man... I, "You are not animal." Then he was stopped. He thinks that he's human being, but he wants to eat like animal. So what kind of human being he is? Just see. He is proud to become human being, but he wants to behave like animal. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has taken all these people as paśu. Sei paśu baḍo durācāra. He has not said that he's human being. Morning Walk -- June 10, 1974, Paris Bhagavān: They are willing to take so many material risks, but they are not willing to try spiritual life. Prabhupāda: That is their fault. That is their foolishness. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Therefore, they are called mūḍhās. Yogeśvara: So how would we define the word "responsibility" in Krsna consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life, realize God, this is wanted. Otherwise you are finished. Three words. You have got this human form of life, your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility. That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty*-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice as a gṛhastha. A nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar-everything first class. He left everything, just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm [SB 11.5.34], He gave up a kingdom, a fortune, which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, (indistinct). Tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīṁ dharmiṣṭha ārya [SB 11.5.34], just to teach us the process of realizing God. This is Vedic culture. Be careful, somebody may not (indistinct). There is enough water? No. Devotee (1): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hm? Very deep? Devotee (1): Not so much. Prabhupāda: When you asked me, what is that, definition of responsibility? Do you understand what is your responsibility? Yogeśvara: We have this human life, we must realize God. Prabhupāda: These three words. Let the rascals understand this. We speak the whole responsibility in three words. Is it complete or not? Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have got any further.... Bhagavān: Let Śrīla Prabhupāda go through. Devotee (2): They have not taken God realization as a responsibility. Prabhupāda: That is their misfortune. Devotee (3): Simply as a pastime. Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance. They do not know what is responsibility. Devotee (3): They would say that so many have taken God realization as a responsibility following some Christian church or something like that, but they are also frustrated. *Prabhupāda: We are not frustrated. We are not frustrated. Are you frustrated? (laughter) How the rascal says frustrated? If you take false thing, then you will be frustrated. If you take real path of God realization, there is no question of frustration. It is ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanam, increasing pleasure. No frustration. Devotee (3): But they'd say that no one has real information of God. Prabhupāda: You have no, rascal, because you are rascal. I have got. You just wash my feet and I will inform you. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: You do not know how to swim, that does not mean I do not know. Is it a very honest statement? "Nobody can swim because he does not know." But if anyone knows how to swim, then why do you say that no one has done? You do not know, you accept that. Devotee (3): Everyone thinks in terms of their own relative position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Even an insignificant bird, because he knows swimming, he knows swimming, so he can (indistinct). Because you do not know swimming, you cannot say like that. Even insignificant bird, just see how nicely he is swimming. He knows the art. Everyone, cent percent of the modern people, they do not believe in God and they do not know what is religion. That is the position. They think religion is sentiment, anyone can manufacture his own sentiment, there is no God. This is going on. So we are in fault. It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. The whole world is under this conception; therefore we are at fault, we are preaching God consciousness. Devotee (4): Generally they make it difficult. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (4): Generally they make it difficult for us to preach. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): They hinder us in so many ways. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (4): Because they have not realized that we have taken a responsibility. When a man has a responsibility, usually he is given some certain facilities to carry out that responsibility. Prabhupāda: Everyone cent percent godless, neither they have got intelligence to understand what is God. This is going on. Yogeśvara: Then we are giving them the intelligence as well as the answers? Because if they have no intelligence to understand... Prabhupāda: Yes, our organization is that. Why you are opening so many centers? Just to give these rascals intelligence. Why Krsna is recognizing so nicely a preacher? Because He knows that he has to face so many difficulties. It is not easy going. Armchair politician, no. He has to face so many difficulties. Devotee (3): Therefore, Krsna recognizes by giving knowledge of Himself? Prabhupāda: Yes. Krsna immediately gives him all facilities. Devotee (3): There has never been a movement like this which has given them factual knowledge of God. Therefore, they think it's sentiment, religion. *Prabhupāda: So we have to abide by their sentiment? Because they are rascals, we have to become rascal? Even if you take so*-called responsibility, you will not be allowed to carry it out. The example I was giving., Napoleon, Hitler, and Gandhi, they took responsibility but they were driven away. What can you do? So what is the meaning of your responsibility? You will not be allowed to execute your responsibility. What remedy you have done that you will not be allowed, kicked out? Then what is your responsibility? Even if you are very nice gentleman, you have taken responsibility, but nature will not allow you to execute the responsibility. What is your answer to that? Big, big Napoleon, big, big Hitler, big, big Gandhi came and gone. Where is the responsibility executor? The Napoleon was given horse urine, you know, by the Britishers. Devotee (2): To drink. Prabhupāda: Yes, at the last stage. When he was asking for water, they have given horse urine. He died like that. [break] Now he has gone to hell, America is there. Just see. Just see the position of regency. The Nixon, when he was in the office, oh, he was a big man, he was a responsible man. Now he is kicked out, he is begging, and America is going on. Where is the need of this responsibility? For several months he was asked that "You give up your responsibility." The rascal will not do. "No, without me, America will go to hell." Just see. This is responsibility. Yogeśvara: All of these big politicians, they seem to fall very ill afterwards. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: They seem to become very sick. Nixon is also ill. Prabhupāda: Not only sick, they die very soon. Yogeśvara: Radhakrishnan was paralyzed? Prabhupāda: Yes, brain paralyzed. (end) Morning Walk -- June 11, 1974, Paris Prabhupāda: Hm? *Devotee: He's puffed*-up. *Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not puffed*-up. It is simply foolishness, "Because I do not know, therefore all others..." Ātmavat manyate. Everyone thinks of others in his own standard. But that argument is not valid. Bhagavān: Is that the same psychology that they, they only know of material body, so when they think of God, they think that God has material body also. Prabhupāda: That is still lower grade man. But so far experience that "I have not... God is beyond my experience." Another point that in the Bible, Christ, Lord Christ says that "My Lord, Thy be hallowed..." What is that? Devotees: "Hallowed be Thy name." Prabhupāda: So God has name. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name." Prabhupāda: Eh? So he admits God has His name. But it may be that he did not disclose or did not like to say, but there is already name. So it is up to the followers to know what is that name. Yogeśvara: The Guru Maharaji followers say that God's name cannot be pronounced. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: They say that God's name cannot be... Prabhupāda: No, Guru Maharaji is a rascal. Don't, don't take his name. He's not even a human being. (laughter) But we cannot compare Christ with Guru Maharaji. He, he's... Yogeśvara: No, but still, the argument... Prabhupāda: The argument, nothing. He's to be simply kicked on his face. That's all. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Haribol. Prabhupāda: He has no other qualification, this Guru Maharaja. People have become so lower in intelligence that they are dealing with him. You see? They are not even equal to our shoes. You should not utter his name. But Lord Jesus Christ's position is different. We cannot compare with this rascal. He's recognized God's man, Jesus Christ. And what is this rascal? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: One of the Ten Commandments, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that one should not take the name of God in vain. And they argue that when we chant the holy name, they say, "You are chanting, chanting, chanting all the time, but this is taking the name in vain." Prabhupāda: Why vain? Don't you find difference between you and me? Why it is vain? Don't you find what is the difference between you and me? So I... Do you think that I am a foolish man, that I am chanting, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" without any profit? So you can think because you are a rascal, but I know my business. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: You should reply like that. Bhagavān: Last night, when you gave him the example that the father is beyond the experience of the child... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: At that point, he stopped arguing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And mother is the only evidence. That's all. Similarly, acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkeṇa yojayet (?). Śāstra says that "What is beyond your experience, you don't argue on that point." You go to the authority and take it. Why you should you argue? It is beyond your experience. Therefore you must find out who can give you the experience. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. But don't stop there, that "It is beyond my experience; therefore I should not have experience." This is foolishness. If it is beyond your experience, then go to a person who has got experience and take from him. Suppose if I am in this park. I do not know which way to go. It is beyond my experience. Then I ask one gentleman, "Where shall I go?" He'll say, "Please go this way." This is the way. Why should you stop and think others also, that God is beyond his experience also? Why? It may be beyond your experience, but unless you go to a person who has got actually experience, how can you get the experience? (pause) *Bhagavān: He seemed frustrated that he says he's tried, but he hasn't found. He was in India for twenty*-five years. *Prabhupāda: Well, the thing is that this, actually, to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job. Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions." But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, we are trying to understand little, little. Otherwise, it is very difficult to understand it. And if there is any understanding of God, that is in this Vaiṣṇava*-sampradāya, especially in this Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava-sampradāya. Others, they do not know. They cannot know. Kṛṣṇa will never reveal to them. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. If you engage your tongue in His service, then God reveals to you. You cannot understand God. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can one remain humble? Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: How can one remain humble in executing his devotional service? *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he thinks himself that "I am non*-entity, helpless," then he can remain. If he thinks "I can do something. I have got so much intelligence," then he cannot become humble. Just like... (aside:) Don't come very near. Just like child is humble always because he knows that "I am completely helpless. Unless mother helps me, I am complete..." Therefore, whenever he's in need of something, he cries, "Mother, help me." This is helplessness. Helplessness. Always. Kārpaṇye. This is one of the items of surrender. Unless you think yourself helpless, you cannot surrender. Surrender is complete when you think yourself that you are helpless. "I am helpless, but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He'll save me." This faith also must be there, that "Although I am helpless... Not although I am factually helpless but because I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, I have no danger. He'll help me, protect me." Paramahaṁsa: People often argue that they don't understand how they can have faith if they don't understand God. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: They don't see how they can have faith if they have no knowledge of God. And they argue, "Well, I don't know God. So how can I have faith in Him?" Prabhupāda: You learn from me. I am your spiritual master. You tell him. You are asking me. Why you are asking me? What is...? Why you are asking me? Paramahaṁsa: Well, I was just giving an argument that people... Prabhupāda: No, argument, that's all right. Why you are asking me? Paramahaṁsa: For knowledge. Prabhupāda: For knowledge. So take knowledge from me. Yogeśvara: That's what you tell them. Prabhupāda: "Otherwise, why you are asking, wasting your time and my time? If you are asking, you take knowledge from me." Is that all right? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. If... The same example. Suppose I do not know which way to go. If I ask somebody, it is supposed that he knows. Is it not? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Otherwise, why I shall ask somebody? It is supposed that he knows. Now, when you ask him, then you must take his word. He says, "You go this way." You shall go there. And again, you say, "Why shall I go this way?" And why, rascal, you come to ask me? Is it not? You asked me, "Which way I shall go to go to that place?" I say, "You go this way." And if you again say, "Why shall I go this way?" "Then why, rascal, you come to waste my time and your time?" This is the answer. If you ask me, then you take my word. Eh? Devotees: Jaya. Prabhupāda: That's it. And if you think that I do not know, then why do you ask me, and waste your time and my time? Therefore śāstra says that "Ask from guru." If you accept somebody as guru, then ask from him. As soon as you ask, the man to whom you ask, he is your guru. Satsvarūpa: Some people say they don't like to talk to Hare Kṛṣṇa people because we're like that. We always say we know everything about everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, we know everything. That's a fact. Satsvarūpa: They resent it, and they say, "Oh, you people, we can't talk with you." Prabhupāda: You may resent, but we know everything. That is a fact. Satsvarūpa: So how do we deal with that attitude if they're turned away by our...? Prabhupāda: No, no. He's a rascal. How we can...? We know everything, and he denies. Then what is the use of talking with him? And waste your time. Let him know everything. We have nothing, no business. Satsvarūpa: We can't compromise and just say that we don't know. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: What does he... Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can...? You know everything. How you can say, "I don't know." Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You do not know practically that. You must be also a man of knowledge. Otherwise, you cannot say. You cannot be falsely say that "Yes, I know." You must know. Then you say. But if you think that you do not know, don't say foolishly like that. Then you'll be slapped. You must know also. So how do you know? The next question will be: "How do you know everything?" Satsvarūpa: It's not that I am great, but it's the authority of my spiritual master and the śāstras. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is great. So I am talking of what Kṛṣṇa has said. Therefore I am great, I am knowing everything. It is not that I know everything. I do not know anything, but I, I am surrendered to a person who knows everything. Therefore I know everything. I take my knowledge from Him. So you should think how much knowledge you have assimilated. The knowledge is there, guru*-kṛṣṇa. Guru is there. Kṛṣṇa is there. So we have to take advantage of guru and Kṛṣṇa, sad-dharma-pṛcchā, ask him, and become man of knowledge. Then you can say. If you simply think that "I have my guru, and there is Kṛṣṇa. Now I am perfect," no. You should ask and know. You must be man of knowledge. Then you can say, "Yes, I know everything." Dīkṣā. Dīkṣā, initiation, dīkṣā, this Sanskrit word, dīkṣā, means divya-jñānaṁ kṣipayati. To ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, "Yes, I know everything." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare... Actually, we know everything. Just like when I speak, I immediately ask reference from Bhagavad-gītā, and we stop the man's argument. So if you become well-conversed with the whole Bhagavad-gītā, then you have full knowledge. There is no need of saying that "I do not know." You'll become full knowledge, man of knowledge. But you must study. Who is this man? Bhagavān: It's his son. Prabhupāda: Oh, your son? You have one son, one daughter? Devotee Man: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is your name? Devotee: Bhakti dāsa. Child: Bhakti dāsa. Prabhupāda: Oh! You do not know your name? You ask your father? You do not know your name? You are asking your father, "What is my name?" Child: No, I don't remember. Prabhupāda: Oh, you don't remember your name? I... Bhagavān: We began to call him Bhakti dāsa yesterday. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very good. (laughs) make him a Vaiṣṇava, very nice boy. Very good*-looking boy. Don't let him deviate. This is the age to be careful so that he may not deviate. What is the age? Twelve years? Devotee: Eleven. Prabhupāda: Eleven. That's all. This is the age. Twelve to fifteen years, the boys become, by bad association, they become rotten. This hellish world is like that. They go to school and become demons. Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, in your lecture, you mentioned how in this age it's very difficult to remain chaste or free of... Prabhupāda: Yes, but one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's all right. Teach him Sanskrit and English and let him read our books. Then perfect knowledge. He doesn't require to go to school. And so far mathematics and history concerned, everyone knows. Two plus two equal to four. It doesn't require much education. Even illiterate man who has never gone to school, he can also count. Eh? "How much money you are giving me?" He doesn't want to be cheated. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma... So the fact is God cannot be unknown. If you are actually serious to know God, God can be known. This is no argument, that "God cannot be known." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That is putting limitation on Kṛṣṇa, to say that you cannot see. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That is putting a limitation on Kṛṣṇa if one says that He cannot be seen. *Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... Of course, you cannot challenge Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa, if He likes, He can reveal Himself to you. Therefore, you can know God. Just like Kṛṣṇa reveals. He comes and He... (aside:) Don't... He reveals Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [Bg. 4.7]. So when man forgets, so He comes, reveals Himself. And He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad*-gītā, knowledge about Him. So where is the difficulty? He comes when you forget Him, and He leaves behind Him the knowledge by which you can understand. Where is the difficulty? Paramahaṁsa: There's a verse in the *Bhāgavatam* that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable... Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Paramahaṁsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad*-gītā, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing? *Prabhupāda: Yes. You can associate with Kṛṣṇa by reading Bhagavad*-gītā. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You've said that the Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa's mind. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not different from His mind. Why do you say like that? This is material conception, the soul is different from body, the mind is different from soul. But Kṛṣṇa has no such difference. Therefore He's called absolute. Advaya-jñāna. His mind and Kṛṣṇa are the same. Kṛṣṇa and His name is the same. Kṛṣṇa and His words are the same. This is Kṛṣṇa understanding. Jesus Christ simply said that "Hallowed be Thy name." That means there is name. Now the question is why he did not say or utter the name? Now, there is already name. Why should he utter? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda: There is already name, Kṛṣṇa. So why should he utter? Paramahaṁsa: Is that why Christ didn't utter the name of Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No, he said, "Hallowed be Thy name. Hallowed be Thy name." So there is name already. That means he gave you chance to find out the name. And as he came to India, so you come to India and you'll get the name. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He was helping to lay the foundation for saṅkīrtana movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Hallowed be Thy name." Yes. This is a chance for others to think, "Hallowed be Thy name." The name is glorified. "So where the name is glorified? Find out." Bhagavān: I think we can turn around, this way. Devotee: Let's go up by the river. Bhagavān: Well, we have to go all the way round the lake to get to the car again. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nitāi: Did you want to know where that was, "Hallowed be Thy name."? Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: Were you asking where that was from? Prabhupāda: No, you said. Somebody said it is, Christ said... Nitāi: That's in what they call the Lord's Prayer, which was given by Christ himself. All the Catholics say that daily. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: The Catholics repeat that prayer daily. Prabhupāda: What is that? Nitāi: The Lord's Prayer. Prabhupāda: What is that prayer? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: One devotee, he asked to Christ, "How should I pray?" Prabhupāda: Hmm. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He said, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever." Prabhupāda: Very nice prayer. Very nice prayer. (pause) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: This is vandanam. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there some gradual development in all those nine processes of devotional service, beginning from hearing? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu*-saṅgaḥ [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. This chanting and hearing should be in the association of devotees. First of all, one must have faith that chanting is good. Then he should chant in the society of the devotees. Then it will develop. He can chant anywhere. But if he chants along... Therefore saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir milita. Many devotees, chanting together, that is called saṅkīrtana. So one, our movement is saṅkīrtana movement, many devotees together would chant the holy name of God. Then it is very quickly successful. Just like a person who comes to our center in the association of the devotees, after few weeks, he also becomes devotee. Quickly. And there are many others, they are seeing that there is a group like this, but because they do not come, they do not understand. Therefore the quick development process is to execute devotional service in the association of devotees, sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Paramahaṁsa: Our position in preaching should be to encourage people in all respects to associate with us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: That means sometimes we might have to compromise in certain ways. Prabhupāda: Why compromise? You don't compromise. Then you associate with him. If you make compromise, then you associate with him. Then gradually you'll also go down. When we, when we see some person, we do not associate with him, but we give him chance to associate with me. Why you should make compromise? What is the reason? If you know something positively, why should you make compromise? When people come to talk with me, see me, I don't make any compromise. Do I make any compromise? Devotees: No. Prabhupāda: Then why shall we make compromise? That gentleman, Mr. Herbert, Gene Herbert, he said that "It has taken eighteen years to write these books." I said, "Still, there are so many mistakes." Immediately I said. And he could not say anything. Do you remember that? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Immediately I said, "Yes, you have labored eighteen years. Still, there are so many mistakes." Nitāi: Anyone else would have said, "Oh! Very nice." Prabhupāda: (laughs) Eh? I did not say. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He said that morning "What can we do, Prabhupāda?" He said, "What can we do? If we do not compromise, we will make enemies." Prabhupāda: No, you'll not compromise; at the same time, you'll not make enemies. That is tactics. If you make enemies, then what is your tactics? You must speak the truth; at the same time he'll not be displeased. That is tactics. If you can defeat him by your argument, then he'll not be displeased. After all, everyone is human being. If you can find out his defect, why he shall be enemy? Therefore, it is said, "You better make a reasonable man an enemy, but don't make a friend fool." You don't make friendship with a fool, but if a man is intelligent, better make him an enemy. Because, because he's intelligent, although he's an enemy, he'll not do any harm. Because intelligent. But a fool, he may pose himself as friend, and he can do anything which is very harmful. Paramahaṁsa: So we should be able to see the quality of man we are preaching to. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to make him intelligent. Everyone is fool, mūḍha. Everyone within this material world is supposed to be a fool. Because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So he's fool. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am German," "I am Frenchman," "I am this," "I am that." What is the difference? A cat is thinking, "I'm cat." A dog is thinking, "I am dog." So if somebody thinks that, in relationship with the body, "I am Frenchman," "I am Englishman," "I am...", then where is the difference between the cat and the dog? He's thinking himself as this body. Therefore everyone is thinking, at least in this modern world, the so*-called nationalism, everyone is thinking, "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "I am Indian," "I am this," "black," "white." So everyone is fool. Is it not? Yes. He's thinking in a way what he is not. Therefore he's a fool. All these big, big political leaders, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, and in Europe , they fought with this consciousness, "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Frenchman." That's all. Even the big, big leaders, they are fools. And what to speak of common men? Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: In the United States, there are something called minority groups. Minority group means like the Irish or the Negroes, the Jews... Prabhupāda: They're also fools. Minority fools. They're minority fools. Yogeśvara: Minority fools? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he's thinking, "I am Irishman." Yogeśvara: Yes, but their point is that "Even if we are spirit soul, we are still being exploited because we are a small number. So we must band together to protect ourselves." Prabhupāda: You are exploited always. Why do you blame this man or that man? You are being exploited by māyā. Where is your position of freedom? Yogeśvara: They say, "Well, māyā we cannot fight, but we can fight the government." Prabhupāda: Why should you fight? If you cannot... Suppose you cannot... Can you fight with death? Māyā, māyā has imposed upon you death. So fight with māyā, that there will be no death. That you cannot do. So you are always, what is called, defeated. That is your position. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. So best thing is surrender to Kṛṣṇa for protection. That is wanted. We don't think, "minority." Suppose... Hare Kṛṣṇa people, how many there are in the Paris City? How many? Yogeśvara: Seventy, eighty. *Prabhupāda: So we are not sorry that minority. Where is the...? Insignificant. Don't talk of minority. But we are not sorry. Minority, majority, all these are foolishness. The whole platform is mistaken. (pause) Rūpa Gosvāmī was a minister. He was in the majority. But voluntarily, he accepted minority. He went to Vṛndāvana and living alone, underneath a tree. He was enjoying so much honor. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa*-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīm. His associates were big, big zamindars, big businessmen, politicians. Because he's minister. But he preferred to resign that post and become a minority, to live alone in Vṛndāvana underneath a tree. Why he preferred this? And remaining there alone, he has given you the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. So we have to see how much service we are going to give Kṛṣṇa. This minority, majority, these are all material conception of life. If you can give major service to Kṛṣṇa, that is your success of life. I started this movement alone, minority. Is it not? Yogeśvara: Yes, one. *Prabhupāda: One only, less than minority. (laughter) The minority, majority, these are material conception. And spiritual is how much you are giving service to Kṛṣṇa. That is considered. That is to be taken into consideration. (pause) Kṛṣṇa says Himself, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions and millions of people, one may understand Me." So if I have turned so many people to understand Kṛṣṇa, so that is service. At least, they are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...in winter in December, when I was going to the park, Regents Park, all the waters, frozen like stone, and with this stick, I was pushing, (makes sound*-imitation:) "Tung, tung," like that. But I marked it that underneath the tree, there was no frozening. The water was there. Just like here is a tree. Just below the tree, there was water. And all around, frozen. The swans were walking on the... But on that place, they were floating. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) *Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists say that the life, life first came from the water. They say that life first came from water. In the beginning, there were one*-celled creatures that were formed from chemicals in the water. *Prabhupāda: That we also say, pralaya*-payodhi-jale **. Because the whole planet was submerged in water, so there was life in water, aquatics, fishes. That is not a very new thing. We know it. Paramahaṁsa: I have a question about evolution. Our position is that all the species have been established by Kṛṣṇa, even before creation. But yet, in the creation, it comes about through an evolutionary process? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So the fact that evolution is existing, it's a fact. But it does not exist independent of the fact that Kṛṣṇa created it and He established it. It's not something that developed independently. Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow. Bhagavān: When Brahmā creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates? Prabhupāda: Brahmā is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution? *Bhagavān: Yeah. So you understand? Brahmā is created first. So it's not that we started from one*-celled animals and worked up to Brahmā. Satsvarūpa: But on a particular planet is it like that? Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Satsvarūpa: Are, are there sophisticated... Prabhupāda: In the material world. Satsvarūpa: The human beings are there from the very beginning on the earth too? Prabhupāda: Hmm. They're... Beings are already there, everywhere. Satsvarūpa: But you said it was all submerged in water. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But he's there. Suppose if you live within the water, does it mean that you are not existing? Satsvarūpa: No, but generally, human beings... Bhagavān: Human species. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Does the human species come with the gradual evolution or is the human species created first? *Prabhupāda: No, in the creation, according to your karma. As you stopped your activities in the last creation, it is, it is just like... It is called suptottitha*-nyāya: "A man is sleeping, and when he's awakened, he immediately remembers, 'What I have to do.' " So the annihilation means all living entities sleeping, and as soon as there is creation again they begin from the point where they last lost their life. That's it. It is the same example. Just when you go to sleep, you have a standard of thinking, and as soon as you are awakened, the same standard of thinking again begins. From the point where you slept and when awakened, you again begin from that point. It is like that. Satsvarūpa: So when Lord Brahmā created this planet, did he immediately put all the species here? Prabhupāda: No, why immediately? It doesn't matter, immediately. But the living entities come to their new formation of life in that way. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in your spiritual master's commentary on Brahma-saṁhitā, he states that within the core of the heart there is some desire and that according to that desire, one takes a body in the next creation. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So within the body of Mahā-Viṣṇu... Of course, material nature is not covering the con..., the sleeping souls, is it? Prabhupāda: Why you bring Vi...? You are talking of living entities. Why do you bring Viṣṇu? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So the point then is that means one can have a conditioned desire or a material desire even without being in the material world. *Prabhupāda: He is already... That I have already explained. Suptottitha*-nyāya. In the morning, as soon as you get up, you remember that you have to do so many things. That means it was already there. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Right. Is that just like the impersonalists? They go up into the brahmajyoti, but they have desire. So they have to come back down. Prabhupāda: No, this is not going to the brahmajyoti. Those who..., brahmajyoti, they do not come in that way. They come in their own frustration. *Paramahaṁsa: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, the living entities, when they come out of the body of Mahā*-Viṣṇu, they, they... *Prabhupāda: In Mahā*-Viṣṇu's body they simply rest during the annihilation. That's all. Yogeśvara: But then during the creation, the scientists say, in the beginning, there was no human life on this planet. Prabhupāda: The scientists are rascals. What they know? There was no human being? Why not human being? The Brahmā is human being. Then you reject the Vedic conclusion. You take this rascal scientist's conclusion. Yogeśvara: No, of course not. Prabhupāda: Then how you can say? Yogeśvara: But where were those spirit souls who were going to take the form of a human being before the human species became manifested? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In the body of Viṣṇu. Bhagavān: That's just on this planet. But on other planets there's human species. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Bhagavān: No. His argument is that scientists say that at the beginning there may have been only lesser developed forms of life. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say that. Bhagavān: Was there always humans on this planet? *Prabhupāda: We say the highest developed, Brahmā. He's a sub*-creator. He's not a lesser intelligent. He's as good as God. Yogeśvara: But on this planet, let us say, for example... Prabhupāda: On this planet, any planet. That is the system. Satsvarūpa: This planet, from the very beginning, there were human beings. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: On this planet, from the very beginn... Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmā is there. The Brahmā created so many sons. The Kumāras came out. The Rudra came out. He gradually created. Nitāi: So actually, the creation goes just the other way. Prabhupāda: Eh? Nitāi: First of all, Brahmā, the greatest living being, and then... Prabhupāda: No. Creation is simultaneously. The Brahmā then created ants and birds and beasts and everything. It is all simultaneous. Something is attached with my cloth, hmm? Paramahaṁsa: These scientists are very great rascals. We should defeat them and save the people from... Prabhupāda: There is something. Nitāi: In your shoe? Prabhupāda: No, in the cloth. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Oh yes. Paramahaṁsa: Actually, you're the only one who has the courage to do that today. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: You're the only one that has the courage to defeat these rascals. Everyone else is surrendering to them. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Because I know on the background there is Kṛṣṇa. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So all your endeavors are perfect! Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: (Getting into car) Openly, I become. And you are all rascals, demons, the scientists, big, big scientists, come. And they tolerate. (end) Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris *Prabhupāda: ...giving to the vultures. Let the flesh*-eaters take it. He did not like this idea much. (laughs) Yogeśvara: It would ruin the economy. Prabhupāda: Economy? What is that economy? Yogeśvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good... Prabhupāda: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, you take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We recommend the meat*-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't... You eat it. After death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right. You eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures. Yogeśvara: Śakuni. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture*-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animals, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men, they are leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men. If I say so frankly, people will be very angry. All fourth-class men. Basically, they're all fourth-class men. Now, these first, second, third-class men are described. So at the present moment, no one belongs to this qualification. Even they are not to the third-class men. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Who is, who is protecting the cows? That is the third-class man's business. So therefore everyone is fourth-class. So the fourth-class men, they are electing their representative to govern. They are also on the big fourth-class men. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Where is that verse? Find out. All fourth-class men. Not fourth-class, less than fourth-class. Fourth-class has got also some regulative duty. But at the present moment, no regulative duty. Anyone can do whatever he likes, whatever he thinks. All fifth-class, sixth-class men. No regulative principle. The human life is meant for regulative principles. Just like we are insisting our students only for regulative principles just to make them real human life. No regulative principle means animal life. Animal life. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa yamena niyamena... [SB 6.1.13] The yoga system is there. It is to learn the regulative principles, yamena niyamena vā. The yoga system is very strict regulative principle. I do not know what they are doing. Generally, they misuse also that, but yoga means indriya-saṁyama, controlling the senses. That is real yoga system. Because as the animals, they cannot control their senses, similarly... So the human being, having higher intelligence, they should learn how to control the senses. This is human life. Human life means controlling. I give this example. Just like in the... In your country, there is no such shop. In our country, the confectioner's shop is on the roadside, very nice. You have seen in India. They have prepared very nice, nice preparation and exhibited. People come and purchase. So animals, cows, as soon as they take some opportunity, they push their head and take something. Get away. Now, the animal, the cow is passing, and a human being is also passing. But the human being, although he's hungry, he likes to take some of the preparation, but he'll not do like that animal. He knows that "I have no money. So I shall have to restrain my tongue." That is human being. The animal pushes the head. So anyone who cannot carry the regulative principles is animal. The law is for human being. "Keep to the left, keep to the right" for... This is not for the dogs. Dogs can keep to the right, keep to the left, anywhere. But he's not criminal. Because he's animal. But if a man, instead of keeping to the right, he goes to the left, immediately, he's criminal. Therefore human society means to abide first-class law. That is human being. The laws must be made for advancement of spiritual life. That is human society. Because animal life, it doesn't require any law. How to eat, it doesn't require any law. Everyone knows. Man knows, animal knows. How to have sex life, it is not to be educated. Everyone knows. But they are philosophizing on sex life. Freud. What is this Freud? Yogeśvara: Sigmund Freud. Prabhupāda: The rascal, what is there, philosophy? This philosophy everyone knows. And he's philosophizing. *Yogeśvara: There was an article in this week's newspaper. Sigmund Freud's grand*-daughter is now posing for naked pictures in magazines. She is saying, "My grandfather's philosophy was not so good." So now she is posing. *Prabhupāda: He's ad... She's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth*-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing, they are leaders. Then what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Yes. These electors are animals, and they elect animals. Just like Nixon. A big animal, and he was elected by other animals. And now there is struggle. (makes barking sound:) "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (laughter.) That's all. Is it not? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It's true. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by... That is stated here, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals. That's all. Small animals. This is the civilization. How he is animal? Now na yat-karṇa..., karṇa-pathet, upeta...? Nitāi: Upetaḥ. Prabhupāda: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal. Nitāi: Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ. Prabhupāda: Jātu. What is...? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport? *Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the level of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so*-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service,..." Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed, educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street. *Bhagavān: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D's who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck*-driver and taxi driver. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhagavān: In the United States. Prabhupāda: Just see. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: And that is supposed to be the brāhmaṇa class too, the professors. They're the educated class of people. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They are not brāhmaṇas. Those who give education in exchange of money, they are not brāhmaṇas. Just like we are lecturing, educated, educating people. We don't say that "Give us salary." We simply ask them, "Please come." Therefore we are making food. I'll give you food. I'll give you good seat. Please come and hear. We are not asking money, that "First of all pay the fees. Then you come and learn Bhagavad*-gītā." We never say so. So those, these so-called teachers, they first of all set up salary, "What salary you'll give me?" That is dog's business. That is not brāhmaṇa's business. Brāhmaṇa will never ask. Brāhmaṇa is eager to give lesson only. That's all. Brāhmaṇa is eager to see that people are educated. "Take free education and be educated. Be a human being." This is brāhmaṇa's business. I came here not to ask for any money. But I want to give lesson. This is brāhmaṇa's business. Bhagavān: Today the priests are afraid to speak too strongly or else they will be fired and get no salary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: Today the priests, they are afraid to speak. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Or like the politicians, they are afraid to speak because they are afraid that they will be voted out or get no more money to support their... *Prabhupāda: Yes. They're after money. So they are less than śūdras. That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise... It is straight commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." And because people are killing, they're... Now they are give man*-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception... At least, outside America, nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they're supporting it. You know that? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is their standard? Yogeśvara: Did he say anything before he left? *Jyotirmayī: Yeah, he said that he was in the, he was promulgating a law. So I asked him if he was going to help promulgate a law against cow*-killing. So he said... *Prabhupāda: Now, this is our proposal, that why you should kill cow? Cow may be protected to take milk, and use this milk for so many nice preparations. Then, so far meat*-eating is concerned, so every cow will die. It is a fact. So you wait a few days only. There will be so many dead cows. So you take all the dead cows and eat. So where is the bad proposal? If you say that "You are restraining us from meat-eating," no, we don't restrain you. We simply request you that "Don't kill. When the cow is dead, you eat it." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the western countries now, the young people, when their parents grow old, they generally send them away to old age homes. So if they have no compassion even towards their own parents, that they would send them away, then how can we educate them to protect the cow which is just like mother if they're even willing to practically kill their parents? Prabhupāda: So there is no question of protecting. We shall protect. Simply we ask them that "Don't purchase meat from the slaughterhouse. We shall supply you the cow after his death." Where is the wrong? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Not enough meat fast enough, they're eating so much beef. Prabhupāda: No, fast, fast. Fast means you have to eat the cow's flesh. So how you can make it fast? The cows' number are the same. So it will remain the same. Simply you wait for the natural death. Where is the restriction? You have got a limited number of cows. Either you wait for the death, or you kill it at once, the number of cows are the same. So we simply request you that you don't kill them. Wait for the natural death and take it. What is the wrong? The number of cows is the same. You cannot increase it. Increase or decrease, the number of cows is there. So we simply request you that so long they're alive, let us take it's milk, and give nice foodstuff to the human society. Yogeśvara: If they don't kill it, they'll be even more cows. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: If they don't kill the cow, then they will have even more meat, because then the cow will have more time to reproduce, more calves. If they don't kill the cow right away. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: There'll be even more cows. *Prabhupāda: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that "Don't..." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the... How long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows, eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. Where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go*-rakṣya. That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing, it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows. You see. They're... Our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows. Because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul. They have no sense." They have got sense. In other places, they do not give so much milk. But in New Vrindaban, they're so jolly, as soon as Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja calls, they'll come. Yes, just like friends. And they are confident that "We'll not be killed." So they are jubilant, and they're giving much milk. Yes. So in Europe, the cows are also good, but the cow-killing system also very good. So you stop this. We simply request that, that you'll get the cow's flesh. As soon as it is dead, we shall supply you free of charges. You haven't got to pay four thousand pounds or four, this, or so much money. You get free and eat. And why you are killing? Stop this slaughterhouse. What is the wrong in this proposal? I think he could not give any counter-reasoning. Bhagavān: He gave a proverb. Prabhupāda: Rather, he supported. Bhagavān: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten years, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole human kind. And these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed. Amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, "Dum! dum!" and killed, be killed. You know. You showed me? Bhagavān: Yeah, French guillotine. *Prabhupāda: You see. As soon as there is bell, the Roman Catholics began to kill the Protestants. So this is nature's law. You don't require to be sent to the slaughterhouse. You'll make your slaughterhouse at home. You'll kill your own child. Abortion. This is nature's law. What are these children being killed? They are these meat*-eaters. They enjoyed. Now they are being killed by the mother. They do not know how nature is working. You must be killed. If you kill, you must be killed. That I've discussed in this now Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Where is Nitāi? Bhagavān: They kill the cow, which is a mother, and then sometimes they get, when their mother kills them. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mother becomes child and child becomes mother. That's all. Have you got transcription of the vyādha story? Nitāi: The...? Prabhupāda: Vyādha. The hunter, hunter story, recited by Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Nitāi: Which...? *Prabhupāda: This twenty*-fourth chapter, Madhya-līlā. Nitāi: No, I don't think it's typed yet. Prabhupāda: What you have typed? Bring. That is Nārada's instruction, how by killing, one becomes killed. That is there. Yogeśvara: Oh, Mṛgāri, the hunter. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Mṛgāri. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you... Mām... This meaning, the flesh, is Sanskrit word is māṁsa. Mām. Mām means "me." And sa means "he." "I am killing this animal. I am eating. And he'll kill me and eat." This word is reminding that "You are killing this animal, and eating. So this animal will kill you and eat you." This is the meaning of māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. "He'll be given the opportunity to kill you." And when the animal is sacrificed before the goddess Kālī, this mantra is cited to the ear of the animal that "You are giving your life before goddess Kālī. So next life you are getting the chance of human being." So he's promoted. Because he is being killed before the deity, goddess Kālī, so he is elevated, and he's given the chance that "This man will become animal, and you'll kill him." So after understanding this mantra, who will be ready to kill another animal? This is the mantra. While sacrificing an animal, this is the mantra. The priest will say in the ear that "You, Mr. Goat, you are being killed before this goddess of Kālī. So your benediction is that you have to undergo so many lives before coming to the human form of life, but because you are sacrificing, as a reward for this, you get immediately human life." So he's not loser. "And this man who is killing you, he'll become a goat like you, and you have the right to kill him." This is mantra. Yogeśvara: Māṁ sa. Prabhupāda: Māṁ sa. Māṁ sa khādati iti māṁsa. Nitāi: That story begins on verse 220, and I only have up to 121 here. This is the most recent tape. She's probably typing it... She'll type it today or tomorrow. Prabhupāda: There these things are discussed. Yogeśvara: The story of Mṛgāri and...? *Prabhupāda: In connection with that, I have discussed the animal killing. So all these meat*-eaters, they are responsible for killing the innocent cows. Bhagavān: Many people today are discussing this topic of reincarnation, but they don't understand the significance of the effects... *Prabhupāda: How they'll understand, all dull*-headed fools, rascals? Dressed like gentlemen, that's all. Tāvat ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. A rascal fool is decorated so long, as long he does not speak. As long he'll speak, his nature will be revealed, what is he. This gentleman therefore did not stay long to expose himself. (laughter) Bhagavān: That's intelligent. Jyotirmayī: When this man left, he told me that there is a very, very, big actress. She's known all over the world. She's called Brigitte Bardot. And she's making propaganda now everywhere against slaughterhouses. So he said she's living around here, and we should meet her, and ask her to come and see you. So if she's here, we can try. Prabhupāda: This mayor, mayor...? This mayor? Yogeśvara: This man was explaining there's a very famous, beautiful actress. Her name is Brigitte Bardot, and she has become very popular now because she is trying to protect the animals. So she lives around here somewhere. He suggested that we contact her. Bhagavān: What about him? Yogeśvara: He just wants to... Prabhupāda: What did he say about himself? *Jyotirmayī: It's when I asked him. I asked him: "So what are you going to do? Can you make a law against cow*-killing?" So he said, "Oh... But there is this actress." Just give it, gave it to someone else to do. *Prabhupāda: No, we have to make this propaganda because we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa orders, kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. So we must take to agricultural work to produce food and give protection to the cows. And if there is excess product, we trade. This simple thing we must do. Therefore I'm anxious to take outside Paris this center. Our people should live there peacefully, produce food grains, give protection to the cows, and work hard. And if there is excess product, you can make money also. With ghee, you can start so many restaurants. That I have already... I have discussed on this point. We can make good money. We'll not be loser. Kṛṣṇa conscious men, they'll be never loser by following the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. They'll live comfortably without any material want, and tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], and after leaving this body, go to, directly to God. This is also... Yogeśvara: We can produce food and ghee on the farm, and then bring it and make prasādam and sell it in the restaurant. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, we can open our own restaurant. Our own restaurant, that I have already suggested. You have not discussed? Satsvarūpa: Yes. We're preparing a letter to send to the whole society. Prabhupāda: Yes. We, suppose we make ghee there. We can make sandeśa there. We can make rasagullā. We can make so many things, especially ghee. So open restaurant in any part of the city, and make nice kachoris, puri, halavā and so many other things, juri,(?) and people will purchase it. They'll come and sit down. I've given all the... That every foodstuff is ready. You sit down. Whatever you like, you take. And this is our charge for one plate. Don't waste. Just like it is distributed. You take one, two, three, four, as much as you like. But don't waste. Don't waste. So so far for your eating sumptuously, the charge is set. Suppose this man eats only one cake and you eat four cakes. That does not mean we shall charge more. Yogeśvara: Same. Prabhupāda: Same charge. Same charge. You sit down, eat to your heart's content, be satisfied, and let him also eat. Don't waste. We supply. This is our program. Not that each time... Just like in hotel, each time a plate is brought, immediately a bill. Is it not? No. You sit down, eat to your satisfaction. Charge is the same. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: I think they will leave the restaurant with their pockets full of samosās. (laughter) Prabhupāda: That we shall not allow. That we shall not allow. Bhagavān: You were telling us one time that in India, if a person has a mango orchard, you can come in if you're hungry and eat, but you cannot take any with you. Prabhupāda: Yes. Still, if you have got a garden, somebody says, "I want to eat some fruits." "Yes, come on. Take as much fruit as you like." But you cannot take it away. Any number of men can come and eat. They even do not prohibit the monkeys. "All right, let him come in. It is God's property." That is the system. That is mentioned in Bhāgavata. If the animals like monkeys, they come to your garden to eat, don't prohibit. Let him. He's also Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel. Where he will eat if you prohibit? It is very practical. I have got another. This is told by my father. My father's elder brother was keeping a cloth shop. My father also was keeping a cloth shop. So it is in the village. So my uncle, what he would do, that before closing the shop, he'll bring one, what is called...? Bhagavān: A bowl? Prabhupāda: Bowl, big bowl. Or it is... What do you call, where you keep water? Bhagavān: Pot. Prabhupāda: Basin, basin. So one basin full rice he will keep in the middle of the shop. And there are rats. So the rats will take the rice, and not cut even a single cloth. It is practical. Yes. They are also animals. Give them food. They'll not create any disturbance. Give them food. Yes. Because cloth are very costly. And there are rats. If one cloth is cut by the rat, then it is great loss. So to save from this loss, he'll put in a basin... Rice was nothing. Rice... In our childhood, we have seen, two ānās per seer. That is with profit. You see. So one basin full rice, it doesn't cost even one ānā. So by giving one ānā worth food, he saves so many, hundreds of rupees cloth. Otherwise, if they're hungry, they'll cut it. Everyone has got obligation. Even the tiger. Even the tiger... One saintly person was in the jungle. His disciples said the tigers will never come and disturb in the āśrama because the āśrama head, they'll keep some milk little far away from the āśrama, and the tigers will come and drink and go away. He'll call, "You tiger, come and take your milk here!" Just like we call the dogs. They'll come and take the milk and go away. And they'll never attack any inmates of the āśrama. He'll say, āmāra ajni hana isko bolo naya (?): "They are my men; *don't harm them." Yes. Tigers can be trained up. Just like dog. They are a dog species. More ferocious, that's all. More ferocious dog. That's all. So you can train them. I have seen in the World Fair. One man has trained... I think most of you have seen. One tiger and one lion. And he was playing with that tiger, lion, just like one plays with dog. They can be trained up. They can understand also that "This man loves me. He gives me food. He's my friend." They also appreciate. Just like this picture, you have seen, Haridāsa Ṭhākura? The big snake is going. The snake also knows that "He's saintly person. He may not be disturbed. Let me go away." And from reason also, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe... [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa is everyone's heart. He's dictating. So Kṛṣṇa can dictate to the animals, to the serpent, to the man, everyone. Such nice foodstuff. And mostly they are made of milk. These people, they do not know. They kill the cows and throw the milk away to the hogs. And they are proud of their civilization. Like jackals and vultures. Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will transform these uncivilized men to real civilization. Their civilization is now compact in masonry work, collecting stones and bricks and piling them. This much, their civilization. Actually, apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2]. The explanation I gave this morning. They do not know what is ātma-tattvam. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. The external feature, material nature, they're interested. These scientists, these philosophers, the man, they're simply interested in the external features. Internally, what is important, they do not know. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You said, Prabhupāda, about these restaurants, have people come, and invite them and give them everything. They can have wife, they can have family, they can have place to stay, nice food. Simply they have to be civilized. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Everything is there. Prabhupāda: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī. We have no such objection. *Yogeśvara: I can remember now. When I was in college, there were so many groups trying to reform the young people, the Y.M.C.A, the church groups, so many different social*-working groups, trying to make young people become more, not so restless, not so much wild, but no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on. So I used to see him, and he would be in school, and when I would come, all of the children would be the same way. I couldn't distinguish him from the others. They were all wild. And then they said, "Oh, he's the one, there." Prabhupāda: Is there any other meeting? *Jyotirmayī: Yes. It will be later. It will be at six*-fifteen, in forty-five minutes. The man coming, will be a psychiatrist. Satsvarūpa: So we can take your leave until then. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda Hari-haribol. (devotees pay obeisances.) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Should I distribute this to the devotees? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Maybe we should save some for the next guest who comes. Prabhupāda: Or you keep it for the guest, and devotees may take down. (end) Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris *Yogeśvara: Monsieur Mesman is the chief of the law*-house of Paris. *Prabhupāda: Law*-house means legislative assembly? No. Yogeśvara: It is part of the National Assembly? M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National... Yes. Prabhupāda: Just like we have in our country, "Legislative Assembly". Yogeśvara: (French) M. Mesman: (French) Yogeśvara: Yes, like that. (French) Prabhupāda: But they're not necessarily lawyers. M. Mesman: (French) Prabhupāda: We are also lawyer. Not in the material sense. But we know what is the law of God. (French) Yogeśvara: He asks, "What are our activities in France?" Prabhupāda: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what are we doing for that? Nitāi: What ways are we doing that? *Pṛthu*-putra: In which way, what way, how? Prabhupāda: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: This gentleman asks if the disciples have to give up their religion, if, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee. Prabhupāda: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand, not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have temple in France or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it? *Prabhupāda: Anyway. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is... You show Bhagavad*-gītā. And all other books also show him. (French) Yogeśvara: He says, unfortunately, he doesn't read English. Prabhupāda: Here is French. French language. (French) Bhagavān: We have practical political philosophy. Yogeśvara: He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program? *Prabhupāda: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political, and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body, there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first*-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated... Find out, śamo damas titikṣā. Yogeśvara: You want to translate? (French) *Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society, the first*-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth-class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses... Hmmm. Read. Yes. Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first*-class man. Yogeśvara: Do you want me to translate? *Pṛthu*-putra: (translates) *Prabhupāda: With all these qualifications, one can become first*-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class... Bhagavān: (correcting translator): "These people should be..." Prabhupāda said: "These people." *Pṛthu*-putra: (corrects translation) *Prabhupāda: A class of men, first*-class men... Yogeśvara: He says "We say, 'They should be,' " which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation. *Prabhupāda: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is..., Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first*-class men, to lead the human society. Then next class... The head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated... Yogeśvara: Nitāi? Prabhupāda: Teja... What is that? Nitāi: It's uh... Prabhupāda: Tejas. No? Nitāi: Śauryam, *Prabhupāda: Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras, fourth*-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies. *Pṛthu*-putra: He says this concept is against the... Yogeśvara: "Traditional western capitalism..." *Pṛthu*-putra: The traditional western capitalists. Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea? *Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first*-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first-class, second-class, third-class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the, as to keep the body fit, we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gītā and... Prabhupāda: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages. M. Mesman: English? Prabhupāda: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France? Bhagavān: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple. Prabhupāda: Dedicated devotee, hundred. (French) *Yogeśvara: If one is a full*-time disciple... Prabhupāda: He's dedicated disciple. Yogeśvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here? Prabhupāda: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris or they are a little bit everywhere... Yogeśvara: Explain there's travelling parties. Bhagavān: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if we have a school in France. Prabhupāda: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. (French) Yogeśvara: This school is for all ages or just for children? Prabhupāda: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are... Other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy. Ph.D. Beginning from A,B,C,D, up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books. Yogeśvara: Did you write all these books? Prabhupāda: That you can say. What can I...? Yogeśvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. (French) He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?" Bhagavān: Prabhupāda has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport. *Prabhupāda: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word*-meaning. (French) Then I combine with reference to the modern society, how they can be applicable to the modern life. (French) Yogeśvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but many French men came to see me, and... Yogeśvara: Last year, at Hotel De Ville. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel De Ville. Prabhupāda: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publications that will come. Yes? Hmmm. (someone comes in with a plate of prasādam) *Pṛthu*-putra: (explains about prasādam) Prabhupāda: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two three, things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparations out of that. From milk and grains and sugar... And? What else? *Pṛthu*-putra: Fruit, vegetables. Bhagavān: Fruits. Prabhupāda: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take. Yogeśvara: Maybe you can also explain that this... Prabhupāda: What is this preparation, explain. You explain. Yogeśvara: This is burfi. Bhagavān: : This is cake, cookie. Prabhupāda: No, not cookie. It is burfi like... What is this made of? Bhagavān: This is... Girl: This is sandeśa. *Prabhupāda: Oh, sandeśa. It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa, you give him one more. So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparations, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk, we make hundreds of preparations. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh*-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh, everything, whatever he likes. Because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free. Without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pounds. One thousand pounds daily in our, one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparations from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our programs, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. (French) *Pṛthu*-putra: He says there is a French... Yogeśvara: Saying. *Pṛthu*-putra: A French saying that says, "We don't have to kill the cow's milk." Yogeśvara: The cow who gives milk. *Pṛthu*-putra: The cow who gives milk. Yogeśvara: One should not kill... That's a French saying. Prabhupāda: Ah! Yogeśvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow? Yogeśvara: It's a proverb. *Pṛthu*-putra: Proverb. Prabhupāda: Problem? Yogeśvara: Proverb. Prabhupāda: So put into action this proverb. So that is... You are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives...? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead, free of charges. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him. Prabhupāda: So kindly do this service. Kṛṣṇa will bless you. M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Car Conversation on the way to Chateau -- June 12, 1974, Paris Bhagavān: ...modern buildings. And they're very frustrated here. Prabhupāda: Ah. Bhagavān: They're becoming very violent. Prabhupāda: Education means producing rogues. [break] Bhagavān: "...houses. Our houses are too expensive." It's a big problem everywhere. Prabhupāda: Why do they not go outside? Bhagavān: The problem is in the cities. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascals, they want to live in city and drink wine and eat meat. So there must be problems. This civilization is simply to create problems, anartha. Anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily problems. So these rascals, they do not know how to solve it. But the solution is this bhakti*-yoga. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: Bhagavān: I was there. Prabhupāda: I requested that "You are one of the important men. Why don't you agree? Close the slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, take it when the cow is dead. We shall supply you?" What is their objection? What is the possible objection? Bhagavān: Objection is that the people have become so impatient for sense gratification, they have no patience anymore. They can't wait... There was some story. In the United States, there has been this trouble with petrol, and... All over the world, there's been this trouble with petrol, gasoline. So there was rationing. That means people could only get a little gas. So the cars would line up for a great distance in the gas station, and they'd wait for a long time. And sometimes the gas station would run out of gas. And the people would get so angry that they killed the gas station attendant. [break] ...does not teach anyone to be austere or patient. Prabhupāda: But human life is meant for austere and patience. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. Austerity, penance, that is human life. Otherwise, it is animal life. Simply animal civilization. It is not human civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (car is in gas station, conversation in car about how much gas to get, etc.) [break] ...progressing, they stand their own position, as they are made by nature. Therefore there is no criminality. They are under full control of nature. We are also under full control of nature, but we have been given little concession: to cultivate spiritual knowledge. So that intelligence, extra intelligence, what we have got, instead of cultivating spiritual knowledge, we are using in the same process of sense gratification like the animals. And this, this business, this, means animalistic business in a polished way, is going on as civilization. Actually, it is animalistic. But it is little decorated or polished, and they have accepted, "This is civilization." In other words, they do not know what is human civilization. They do not know. They're animals. They do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (about getting gas:) For this service, they do charge anything? No. Bhagavān: No. (more conversation with gas station attendant, etc.) [break] It is very known that the family is very strong, the family attachment is very strong. In America, people separate from the family very early. And in France, the family attachment is so strong. And many people, many families have come and asked us if we will be able to open school here for their children too. The interest is there. Everyone is afraid of this present system of schooling. Because they send their children there, and they come back so crazy. Prabhupāda: Rogues. Rogues. After education, they are rogues only (pause) [break] Bhagavān: ...take breakfast a little earlier. Is that O.K? And then this other gentleman can come with us and we can go faster that way. Because their truck is slow. [break] ...human being, those who have system of religion? Is that what makes them civilized? So the society today, even though it seems to be technologically advanced, can that society be called civilized? No. Prabhupāda: So long technological advancement is meant for bodily comforts, so, so long one remains in the bodily concept of life, he's animal. (pause) (end) Morning Walk -- June 12, 1974, Paris Bhagavān: ...the original beauty. Prabhupāda: Original beauty, just like animals. They remain naked. So the, the original beauty is animal. Because the animals, they do not dress. In the human society, they cover. Animals do not cover. Therefore original beauty is animal. Satsvarūpa: They say that this is, the body is made by God. Why cover it up? Nakedness is the work of God. Prabhupāda: No. God said that you should cover. (Some French boys in background are making mocking sounds, yelling, etc.) And they are becoming naked now. (yelling increases) What is that? They are laughing. Satsvarūpa: Crazy. Bhagavān: Do we go left, Harināma? Harināma: To the right. (more yelling, Prabhupāda chuckles) Bhagavān: When there is big kīrtana party, then they stop laughing very quickly. Prabhupāda: What are these buildings? Bhagavān: This is a big museum. Prabhupāda: Museum? Bhagavān: Yes. [break] Paramahaṁsa: Everything man creates... Prabhupāda: And why does he die? Paramahaṁsa: We have got knowledge. Prabhupāda: Who has created death? Eh? Who has created death? Man creates everything, but who has created your death, Mr. Man? What is the answer? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He has not created anything then. Prabhupāda: No no, no. I accept that man has created anything, everything. But who has created your death? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: God. Prabhupāda: Huh? Is there any answer? Paramahaṁsa: Well, man has not created death. Prabhupāda: That means somebody has created. So how you can say that man has created everything? The fallacy, just see. How rascal they are. That I wanted to say. Paramahaṁsa: You have quoted a great English poet who said... Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: You have quoted a great English Poet who says that "Man has created the city..." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Paramahaṁsa: "...and God has created the country." Prabhupāda: This is the statement of Mr. Cowper. Man has created nothing. Suppose this building, man has created. But wherefrom the ingredient comes. Has man created? This stone, man has created? Eh? What do you think? Is this stone, creation of man? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: Then what... You have done the work of a laborer. That's all. You have taken ingredients from God and worked hard and transformed into a step. That's all. Your creation means just like carpenter creates a furniture. That's all. That is his creation. Then that is... The economic law says that man cannot create anything. He can simply transform. These trees, has man created these trees? Why do they claim man has created everything? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: But they will say that they made the garden. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They will say that they made a very nice garden. Prabhupāda: That's all. That is the business of gardener, servant, not creator. That is the business of the servant. Just like I keep a gardener servant, and "Do like this. Do like that." That is not he is creator. It is my money which has created. Therefore it is Kṛṣṇa's, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you have not created anything. You are servant. You are working, and Kṛṣṇa is giving you your subsistence. That's all. So why don't you accept that you are servant of God instead of claiming that you have created. What you have created? This is our challenge. Am I right or wrong? Paramahaṁsa: Right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: Right. Prabhupāda: Yes. What you have created? Paramahaṁsa: Life becomes so artificial. In the big city, people don't see that they depend on God. Prabhupāda: No, no. City or country, that I don't say that Mr. Cowper is perfect in his statement. City is also created by God. City is also created by God. God has given you the ingredients, He has given you the intelligence, and you create. Eh? Wherefrom you get the intelligence? Eh? Who will answer this? Wherefrom the man gets his intelligence? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: From Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the verse? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam... Prabhupāda: Ah. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15]. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. So He is sitting in everyone's heart, and He's giving intelligence. And because the intelligence comes from God, therefore one is more intelligent, one is less intelligent. Because intelligence is not his. It is by the mercy of God one gets more intelligence, one gets less intelligence. So intelligence is supplied by God. Yogeśvara: Yet... But they claim to have found a way of making people biologically more intelligent now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: The scientists claim that they have found a way of making babies more intelligent. *Prabhupāda: That, they are dipping in so many things. Therefore we kick on their face, that say, promise, so many things, but cannot do anything. That is the defect of the so*-called scientists. They are promising, "By scientific method, we shall make man deathless." Do they not say? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: But have they made him deathless? Simply a dream. That's all. Utopian dream. Bhagavān: Even if they succeed in one area of doing something they promise... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: ...they create something that they didn't want to. They create some other problem that they didn't expect. Prabhupāda: What they have created? They are creating... But still dependent. Suppose they have created this horseless carriage. Now they are crying, "Where is the petrol? Where is the petrol?" So if God does not supply petrol, then all these horseless carriage will be pieces of tin. That's all. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Māyā-sukhāya. Prabhupāda: Can you create petrol? Bhagavān: No. Prabhupāda: Then what is the value of your, this horseless carriage? You are dependent on God. What you have created? And what you can do? You can create war only to fight, man to man, and when you are in danger, then you go to church; "God save us. God save us." That you can create. And as far as peacefully living, accepting God as the Supreme, you can create war. That's all. That means... Like dogs, they create war. So this is a nice park. Why do you go so far? It is nice park. Now you create something to enjoy. Just like who created this building? Napoleon? French Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: Then? French Devotee (1): It's not by Napoleon. It's just... Paramahaṁsa: What is it from? French Devotee (2): It's a new building. French Devotee (1): It's new. It's not hundred years old. It's called Marine Museum, Museum of the Marines. Paramahaṁsa: It's a museum for exhibitions. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. The man who created, he's kicked out. "Get out!" What did he do? "I have created this thing. I must enjoy." Why he's kicked out? Why? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Because it is actually not his property. Prabhupāda: What is the answer? Why you are kicked out? Answer somebody. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It's just like this body. Bhagavān: He's not the real proprietor. Prabhupāda: Therefore... Yes. And not only kicked out. Who knows that he has been given a different body, maybe cats and dogs? So what is the value of this creation? Suppose I create this building, and on account of mentality, nature gives me next body a dog, and... Then what is my profit? Yogeśvara: Yeah, there was that man who came to see you a couple of days ago. His argument was that we can't really say for sure because it's not perceivable that we will take a dog's body. But at least this is something we can understand. Here's something, a nice accomplishment. Prabhupāda: But you understand, but you can understand also that you'll be kicked out. Don't you understand this? Bhagavān: He doesn't know it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Therefore, he's a fool. Bhagavān: There's a statement that says that... *Prabhupāda: Just like suppose if I do something here in Paris, and if you say, "Sir, as soon as your visa is finished, you'll be kicked out," shall I be interested to create anything? That is intelligence, that "I will be kicked out after two months. Why shall I construct such a big scheme?" That is intelligence. So these rascals know that he'll be kicked out. Still, he works day and night for collecting bricks and stones and he becomes a big man. Mean a foolish rascal, he is considered a big man. Therefore śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Paramahaṁsa: People argue that "God has given us our intelligence and our senses, and therefore we must enjoy." Prabhupāda: Yes. You enjoy. The dog is also enjoying. What you are enjoying more than the dog? Dog also eat. You also eat. Dog also sleep. You also sleep. Dogs also enjoy sex life. You also enjoy sex life. Dog is also afraid of his enemy. You are also afraid of your enemy. So what is the difference between you and dog? Why you claim that you have become very great? What is the difference between the dog's mentality and your mentality? God has given you intelligence to understand that you are nothing, God is everything. Just realize it. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. When you understand that "God is great. I am His servant," that is real reali... That is his intelligence. Otherwise, he's exactly like the dog. What is his intelligence? Paramahaṁsa: But people today have reasoned God is dead with their intelligence. Prabhupāda: God is not dead. Your intelligence is dead. You have got a dead body, and you are proud of it. Eh? Decoration of the dead body. And you are decorating the dead body. The body's dead. That's a fact. Because as soon as you, soul, get out, it is dead body. But the body's already there. That means I am occupying a dead body. So long I am there, it is working only. But the body's dead. And you are decorating the dead body. You are so intelligent. You are interested with a dead body. And you have no intelligence to see that actually it is dead body. Because as soon as I will go away, it is dead body. The body is dead, but... Just like motor car. It is dead. If there is no petrol, it is dead. Similarly, your body is dead. Now try to understand. And if somebody decorates a dead body, is he very intelligent? Bhagavān: No. *Prabhupāda: Then? Your all acquisition is decoration of the dead body. That is a verse, aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Loka-rañjanam. You can get some rascal and fool, some applause, "Oh, you are so nice. You are decorating dead body." But intelligent man will say "What a fool he is that he's decorating a dead body. That's all." Yogeśvara: It's like the story of the emperor's new clothes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: There's a story about an emperor who commissioned a tailor to make some clothes for him. So the commissioner, the tailor, outsmarted him and told the king, "I have made you invisible clothes." Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Yogeśvara: So the king said, "Oh, how wonderful. I'm the only person with such clothes." So he wore the invisible clothes and went out in public. And because he was the king, everyone was saying, "Oh, just see how beautiful clothes he has." But then one simple person said: "Why is the king walking naked?" *Prabhupāda: So a simple person is more intelligent than the so*-called sophisticated citizens. Decorating the dead body. I think in my Back to Godhead I wrote this article. Bhagavān: One old Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: One old Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Decoration of the dead body." Satsvarūpa: They might ask why we decorate the Deity if we say that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Why do we decorate the, a stone Deity? Prabhupāda: Because it is not dead; it is living. They can put forward this argument. But that you do not know, that we are not decorating... We are, we are decorating the real body. Now what will be your question next? Satsvarūpa: You say it's a real body, but it appears to be stone. Prabhupāda: Why stone? Stone is also God's body. You don't know that? Do you know it or not? Satsvarūpa: Yes, in the Universal Form. Prabhupāda: No. Universal Form... Kṛṣṇa says, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Bhūmi means the earth. "That is My body." Yogeśvara: But there are no... They would say that there are no symptoms of life in the Deity. *Prabhupāda: No, there is life, but you have no eyes to see. There is life. He's the supreme life. Only premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38], one who is devotee, he can see. Otherwise, are we fools, rascals, that we are worshiping a dead body? Do you mean to say after reading so many books, we are worshiping stone? You have no eyes. You have to create that eyes to see that "Here is personally Kṛṣṇa present, arcāvatāra." Bhagavān: They can't even see that in an animal other than human there's soul. So how can they understand the Deity? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: They can't... *Prabhupāda: so therefore they have to become our student and become our disciple to understand this science. Otherwise, why there is propaganda if we remain the same fool and rascal? That, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that the stone is also, that is virāḍ*-rūpa. That is also Kṛṣṇa. Satsvarūpa: But by that argument, then, this body is also Kṛṣṇa, made of earth and water. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is Kṛṣṇa's. But you are thinking you are. That is Kṛṣṇa's. Therefore this body should be engaged for Kṛṣṇa's service. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You, as soon as you accept this body is Kṛṣṇa's, then you cannot employ it for other purposes. But that realization you have no. Why do you say it is Kṛṣṇa's? You are thinking your body. Or you are body. Where is that consciousness? Paramahaṁsa: The impersonalists argue when they read the verse, ahaṁ sarvasya bhūteṣu... Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: They argue that Kṛṣṇa's in the heart of every living entity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Therefore, every living entity is Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Why? If I am in the room, I am room? Is that very good argument? Because I am in this room, I have become room? Is that argument very sound? Kṛṣṇa is within this body. I am also within this body. But does it mean I am body, or Kṛṣṇa is this body? Devotees: No. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything; *again Kṛṣṇa is... That is... What is the verse? mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta*-mūrtinā: "I am spread all over the universe in My impersonal feature." Jagad avyakta-mūrti..., mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4]. "Everything is in Me." Nāhaṁ te..., "But I am not there." This is called simultaneously one and different. Acintya-bheda, that one has to understand. Where there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is different from Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, everything is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: The other religions do not give any... Prabhupāda: We are not talking of religions. We are talking of science. Bhagavān: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So don't bring in any religion. A type of religion is made, "Believe something blindly." So that is not our concern. We are talking of the science. If I say that stone is also Kṛṣṇa, is not that the science? Bhagavān: It's the science of how God's energies are working. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if I say heat is also fire. Is there any wrong? Bhagavān: No. Prabhupāda: Is there any wrong? Devotees: No. Prabhupāda: Heat is also fire. But at the same time, heat is not fire. What is the difficulty to understand? If I say heat is also fire, but it is not fire, where is the wrong? Devotee: Heat comes from the fire. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the fire quality is there. Heat is the quality of the fire. Just like I taste sugar. The sweetness is also sugar. And the form is also sugar. Yogeśvara: Well, they would say, "If stone is also Kṛṣṇa, then why aren't we worshiping all stone?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: Then why don't we worship all... Here is also some stone. Why don't we worship this? Prabhupāda: You worship. Because you are rascal, you worship. Yogeśvara: No, they... Prabhupāda: We, we worship Kṛṣṇa in His form, but you are formless. You worship that stone. When we make the form of Kṛṣṇa in stone, then we worship, not that any stone. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything, that does not mean I have to worship the dog. That you worship. Because you are impersonalist, you worship dog. And you are doing that. In the morning, you take a dog and worship it. That is your business. Our business is to worship the form of Kṛṣṇa. That is the, required. (pause) Bhagavān: Could we say that anyone who is engaged in glorifying the body is actually engaged in idol worship? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bhagavān: Anyone who's engaged in... Prabhupāda: That is already answered. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body is Myself, but still, I am not there." So you cannot say by worshiping your body, you're worshiping Kṛṣṇa. At that time, he's not there, although the body's also Kṛṣṇa. Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes, they argue, "How do you know this Deity is Kṛṣṇa, and this one isn't? Because each Deity looks a little different to the material eyes." *Prabhupāda: So we have to pluck out the material eyes. Then you'll see that it is all right. First of all, let me pluck out your material eyes. Then you'll see. Therefore it is said, premāñjana*-cchurita: "Eyes with love of Godhead." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He saw Jagannātha Deity, Jagannātha Deity's not very beautiful. But immediately He saw Kṛṣṇa and fainted. You have to make that eyes, then you'll see. So your present eye have to be plucked out. Then you'll see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Who is that statue? You are...? Paramahaṁsa: It's a decoration. Bhagavān: Where do we go? Paramahaṁsa: There's a promenade around the fountain. Prabhupāda: So they have made this art. Suppose a real man and woman stands here. Will it be considered as art or criminal? Paramahaṁsa: It would be considered criminal to them. Prabhupāda: Then? Their art is criminal. Paramahaṁsa: But their argument is that when you glorify the body of man with... Prabhupāda: We don't glorify the body of... Who glorifies the body of man? We say it is dead body. Dead body means that does not need glorification. It is condemned. We say dead body, decoration of the dead body. We don't say art. Paramahaṁsa: Catholic Renaissance Art, they glorified the dead body. Leonardo da Vinci, they glorified the body of man. *Prabhupāda: That is called bhūtejya. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā as worshiping the material elements. That's all. Here in western countries, that is the prominent thing, bhūtejya. (pause) What is the other side? Lion? (pause, break) They cover with some cloth, some loose cloth. Is it not? Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is French art, to make naked? Devotee: Yes. Bhagavān: Little more advanced. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Therefore nowadays students are walking naked in America. Advanced, more advanced. Bhagavān: There was one picture in the paper of one student running to receive his diploma without any clothes on. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Just see how much rascal they are becoming. (to devotee:) Take care of your son. It is... Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... Paramahaṁsa: If the material creation is created by Kṛṣṇa, then man cannot destroy it although they are thinking that if they have a nuclear war, then they will destroy the earth. Prabhupāda: What they will destroy? Paramahaṁsa: They're thinking the earth will just blow up with all the atomic bombs. Prabhupāda: That means this earth will be finished? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They're expecting that? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The earth will be finished? Bhagavān: They think it's within their power. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: It's within their power. *Prabhupāda: Within their power, so many things they're imagining. That is not possible. He can make a big hole only. That's all. Then where he'll stand? Suppose he finishes the earth. Then he is also finished. Then what is the credit? If you suicide, if you cut your own throat, is that very good credit? Then what is the credit? Suppose he has manufactured something that the earth will be finished. Then he'll be also finished. So what is God's loss? There are millions of earth*-like planets floating in the sky. So one is lost. What is God's loss? It is your loss, that you are finished. Is that very good invention, to finish yourself? You are being finished. And now you have invented instrument to be finished. So you'll be finished. Wait for that. Why you are anxious to invent something to finish yourself? Is that very good intelligence? You'll be finished. That's a fact. So why you have invented machine to finish yourself quickly and you want to take credit? That means he proves he's a nonsense. He's a nonsense. *Paramahaṁsa: If God is all*-good, why does He permit so many wars to go on? Prabhupāda: Because you want to be finished. You create war to be finished. God does not create. Just like you have created this weapon. In the name of finishing your enemy, you'll be finished, also. Is that very good credit? And God has created like that? You have created. Why don't you understand this? Yogeśvara: Well, why has God permitted me to do such a horrible thing? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your little independence. God does not want to touch any... By your independence, go to hell or go to heaven. That's your choice. God says that "Don't use your independence by malpractice." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām... [Bg. 18.66]. God, that is God's statement. "You surrender to Me. I'll guide you." But if you misuse your independence, that's your business. You go to hell or heaven. That's your business. (pause) Bhagavān: Where do we go now? Paramahaṁsa: The car will be waiting for us down there. Bhagavān: You're going to get it right now? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. They're all demigods, these pictures? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Demi-animals. Prabhupāda: This is, I think, Adam and Eve, in the midst, middle? There must be some sense in the picture. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is. Paramahaṁsa: People are believing that at the end of life, there's just death. So why worry about anything else? Therefore we should just enjoy right now. Prabhupāda: That is the difference between you and animal. The animal is in the slaughterhouse. He's not worried. But why you are worried. Suppose if you are brought in the slaughterhouse, and if you know that you'll be slaughtered, are you not worried? An animal is not worried. He's eating grass. That's all. So that is the difference between animal and man. If you are not worried, then you are animal. That's all. Bhagavān: You once said that human life is pessimistic. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dissatisfaction. If you are not worried, that means you are animal. You are not human being. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is that like Prahlāda Mahārāja's prayer when he saw Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva and he said, "I am not afraid of Your ferocious form, but I am afraid of this material world of saṁsāra." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He has given nice reference. A devotee, although sees God in His lion feature, and very ferocious, he knows He is God. "He's my Lord." But this so*-called advancement of material civilization is the greatest enemy. That is not... Material civilization is very, very backward position. Māyā-mohita. He'll be captivated by the so-called stones and bricks, and he'll forget God. That is the disease of the western world. They are very much fond of these stones and bricks, and therefore they have no knowledge about God. This electricity, the electrons, the radio, this, everything machine and stones. They have got, forgotten God. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. The more you materially advance, you forget God. So human life is meant for reviving our relationship with God, but if you forget God, then what kind of civilization it is? You are forgetting your real business. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Some people use the argument, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that by this advancement of technology, it will free us to think of philosophical. *Prabhupāda: They will free us. They will free us. Oh, that will never come. That will never come. Therefore they are called bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. They are captivated by the external feature, and one who is leading them, he's also blind, and one who is following, he's also blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that material laws are so strong that they are not free to do anything. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They are thinking that the technology will free them. Prabhupāda: Eh? No. No. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The technology cannot...? Prabhupāda: It will bind them. Bhagavān: It simply creates newer problems. Prabhupāda: That's all. Paramahaṁsa: Some people glorify suffering in the material world because they say this increases their sense of appreciating the momentary happiness they have. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. (laughter) That is good, yes. "Blessings of adversity." That is blessing. Yogeśvara: Blessings of...? Prabhupāda: Adversity. Yes. Therefore, according to Vedic system, big, big king, they give up their kingdom and becomes a sannyāsī, mendicant, voluntary acceptance of adversity. This is good. To live very comfortably and forget God is not good business. Devotee: How can a devotee be free from being attracted to this worldliness? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: How can a devotee be free...? Prabhupāda: When he's attracted by Kṛṣṇa, he'll forget. Just like we are more or less not attracted by these material features because we have little attraction for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. So increase your attraction for Kṛṣṇa; *you'll forget all nonsense. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. The bhakti means more realization of God and forgetting this, all this nonsense. That is bhakti. That is the test of bhakti: how much you have become disinterested with this material advancement. That is bhakti, advancement of bhakti. And the... Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says, niṣkiñcanasya. At last, when you'll feel that "Now I am dispossessed of all this material nonsense," then you make progress. And so long you'll feel "I have got this, I have got that, I am in possession of this, I...," that means your material disease is continuing. When you'll feel that "I do not have anything material," that is the beginning of Bhāgavata*-dharma. Devotee: Prabhupāda, what is the devotee's greatest enemy? A devotee's greatest enemy? Prabhupāda: He, he himself. Because he's a rascal, he's his greatest enemy. So just get out of this rascaldom, and you become your friend. Nobody is enemy. You are yourself your enemy. Nobody is enemy. (pause) Which one? Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Room Conversation with M. Lallier, noted French Poet -- June 12, 1974, Paris Yogeśvara: ...and Mr. Lallier has a reputation among young literary circles in France as being a very good poet. Prabhupāda: He's good poet? M. Lallier: No. (laughs) *Jyotirmayī: (French) Before he came, he already knew a little Bhagavad*-gītā, little Vedānta. So he has a lot of questions. There's some points, he likes very much Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and some, he says that maybe in the Vedānta philosophy is different things. M. Lallier: She says that I knew that entire philosophy, but I knew it very badly, very... I'm not a great philosopher. No, not at all. Prabhupāda: Which philosophy? Yogeśvara: What kind of philosophy are you familiar with? M. Lallier: Oh, I'm very interested by Indian philosophy, and I think it's the most high, the higher, the highest philosophy. But it's difficult to understand for us. Yogeśvara: He says he thinks that Indian philosophy is the highest in the world, but he finds it difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You call Bhagavān. We are talking of philosophy. Then let them hear. Pṛthu Putra: He said it is very hard to applicate this spiritual philosophy in our modern world. Prabhupāda: Call Karandhara also. You also hear the philosophy. So what is that philosophy? Nitāi: He's talking about the Vedānta philosophy, that he is studying, but... He thinks it's the highest, but he finds it very hard to understand and apply. Prabhupāda: So which part he finds very, very hard to understand? M. Lallier: I think the relation between the, the, the body, material body and the ātmā... Yogeśvara: The soul? M. Lallier: The soul, soul. The relation between the two parts... Bhagavān: To apply the fact that the soul exists and the body exists? How to practically apply that difference between the body and the soul? M. Lallier: Yes. Bhagavān: Is that what you...? M. Lallier: And the relation between the two parts, between body and soul. Bhagavān: In other words, you recognize that there's difference between body and soul, and how to practically apply it? M. Lallier: I think, perhaps, there is some peoples for whom there is no difference between the soul and body. Prabhupāda: Who says? M. Lallier: Oh, spiritual masters. Prabhupāda: Who's that spiritual master, says soul and the... M. Lallier: Oh, I don't know very... I think you are one of them. Or...? Prabhupāda: No, we don't say. We say spirit soul is different from the body. Just like you are living, staying in this room. The room and you are two separate things. Because you are staying in the room, it does not mean you are room, or the room is your self. Does it mean? M. Lallier: Yes. Prabhupāda: It means so? Because you are staying in this room, you are this room? M. Lallier: No. But... No, I... I understand that... There is some difficulties for me about the signification of two Sanskrit words which are puruṣa and prakṛti. Is there any relation between those two, those two...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Puruṣa means the enjoyer, and prakṛti means the enjoyed. Bhagavān: Can you understand English? M. Lallier: No. (Devotee translates) M. Lallier: I learned before that puruṣa means the great man. Yogeśvara: He says he also learned somewhere that puruṣa can refer to any great man or great person. Prabhupāda: So in the material world everyone thinks that he's very great person. That is the disease. Everyone thinks that "I am the great." This is called māyā. M. Lallier: Yes, I... Yes, Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore, the living entity is called puruṣa, and that puruṣa wants to enjoy the prakṛti. M. Lallier: Is it possible to... (French) Pṛthu Putra: Is it possible for the soul to enjoy the material nature? Prabhupāda: It is not possible, but he's trying to do that. That is the disease. Just like in your country, Napoleon, he tried his best to use whole Europe to be controlled by him. So he made some attempt, but he is finished now. The Europe is there, but he's gone away. Similarly, it is just like... The example is: Just like a fly wants to enjoy the fire. He comes with force there, and he is finished. Similarly, in this material world, every, all living entities, they're trying to enjoy. With great force, they are coming. And different capacities, they try to enjoy, but they themselves become finished. The things remain where it was. So so many living entities... Exa... The example, the fly is very proper. So many flies are coming, (makes sound:) "Phut! Phut! Phut! Phut!" in the big fire. You have no experience here? Jyotirmayī: Yes. M. Lallier: Why living entities does go to material...? Yogeśvara: Why does the living entity try to enjoy material nature in such a way? Prabhupāda: The, the... When he forgets that he cannot enjoy, the only enjoyer is God, Kṛṣṇa, when he forgets this principle he wants to enjoy. M. Lallier: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is called illusion, māyā. Actually, he cannot enjoy, but, forgetting Kṛṣṇa, the real enjoyer, he wants to enjoy. That is his... Just like a child imitates the mother for cooking. The other day, in Geneva, the fire ceremony was going on. The mother was offering oblations, and the child also immediately took some and he... You have seen that? Yogeśvara: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So he's not fit for that business, but he imitates. That is childish. Sometimes goes to the kitchen, wants to make foodstuff, preparation, and he is given some toys that "You just play with it." So every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is enjoyer, God is controller. So he wants to imitate God. That is called māyā. (French) Pṛthu Putra: So what should the soul do if he cannot imitate God? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the soul... Just like the same example. The child should be guided by the father and mother. Similarly, we should be guided by God, Kṛṣṇa. That is our normal life. And the guidance is given personally by Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So if you follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, and be guided by God, then you are happy exactly like a child is happy when he's under the protection of the parents. M. Lallier: Yes. Why does the soul forgets, forget his relation... Devotee: With Kṛṣṇa. M. Lallier: With God? Bhagavān: Why does the soul? Prabhupāda: He does not forget, but he... Just like the same example. You call it forgetfulness or imitation. Just like the child was offering. He was not required to offer oblation, but he was imitating the mother. That is natural. According to Vedic instruction, we are all living entities. God is also a living entity. But He is chief. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), [break] ...that He is the topmost living entity, leader of the all other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. The supreme one is maintaining all other living entities. So we are maintained. And He is maintainer. So sometimes... (to translator:) Yes, explain. There is... Sometimes it happens the father maintains the children, but the same child sometimes gives up the protection of the father. "Why shall I live under the guidance of...? I shall become independent." There are many instances in your western countries. He's happy being under the protection of the parents, but he rebels. He goes away. So that he can do. But if the father is very big, very rich, and the son leaves home and goes away to live independently, he suffers so much inconveniences and that is his choice. M. Lallier: What does he destroy? He destroys soul? Prabhupāda: Hm? (French) Pṛthu Putra: So when one has fallen too low in the material life, how can he come back to his original condition? Prabhupāda: By surrendering to God, Kṛṣṇa. M. Lallier: Is it possible if we are, for example, a fly, to, to become religious. Yogeśvara: If one has fallen so far that he has taken the body of a fly or a mosquito, can he still return to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. As he degraded from the body of Brahmā to fly, similarly, he can also ascend from the body of a fly to the body of Brahmā. Karandhara: The process of falling down, descending, can be reversed, and one can evolve back up, ascend back up. It may take a lot of time and a lot of births, but... M. Lallier: But why? We, in France, for instance, or in occidental world, we are accustomed to think, to think that the phenomena of consciousness is only a characteristic... [break] What is the signification of...? Yogeśvara: Of that degradation of the human species? M. Lallier: Yes, of the flow (?) of the four ages. Yogeśvara: So, so far, to this point, we've been speaking about a gradual evolution of consciousness through the species. So what is the explanation, what is the reason for which there is a degradation of the human consciousness through the four ages? Prabhupāda: Where there is evolution, there must be degradation. Otherwise, what is the meaning of evolution? Why it should be stagnant? If you go, ascend, then you can descend also. Now, the Mr. Nixon was elected president, and why he's being dragged, "Come down." He is not coming down, but he has already come down, degradation. Nobody likes him. M. Lallier: Yes. Prabhupāda: And the more he sticks to his position, he's becoming unpopular. So his degradation is already complete, but because he's in the office, post, he does not agree that, "I am degraded." But from the public point of view, he's degraded. Is it not? M. Lallier: Yes. But do you think it is possible now to, to predict, to prevent degradation? Yogeśvara: He says now there's been this degradation of human consciousness throughout the ages. So do you think it is possible now to stop this course of events, to stop this degradation in human consciousness? Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to stop this degradation of the human society. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is that like in Parīkṣit Mahārāja's kingdom where, although it was Kali-yuga, the influence of Kali was not experienced by the people because of the strict obeyance to the laws of God? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: We read in the Bhāgavatam how in King Parīkṣit's, under his rule, the people, there was no place for the personality of Kali to live even though it was Kali-yuga. So is this possible even today? *Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? If you follow these four principles*-no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat-then you'll, you are secure. But who is going to accept this? Karandhara: The young man can understand that the degradation has occurred because of ignorance. The knowledge has been forgotten by which the upliftment or evolution can continue. So Prabhupāda and this movement, we're representing that knowledge. The knowledge has always been there, but it's been lost. It's been forgotten. So if that knowledge is represented, and made available, then that ignorance becomes dispelled, and the advancement can again go on. M. Lallier: Yes, but degradation is not...? Is it not a law of nature? Karandhara: Well, the law, the dynamic, or the dynamics of the law is the preponderance of godlessness. Prabhupāda: No, the law is all right. Suppose one is degraded to become a criminal, thief, but he can be raised also to become a high, saintly person. Karandhara: I think what he's asking, Prabhupāda, isn't the degradation... Because in the *Vedas* it outlines the ages, succeeding one another, and there're different characteristics, isn't it inevitable that it's going to occur, that the devolution occurs inevitably without anyone's being able to change it. Prabhupāda: No. It is just like, winter season. The season is winter, but still, you can keep yourself warm. If you like, you can keep yourself in warm. So daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. Nature's course is very strong, going on, according to the program, but mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he's above this degradation." (French) Yogeśvara: You tell Prabhupāda how he's (M. Lallier) helping with the translation work. Pṛthu Putra: After we translate your books in French, he reads the copies over, and he arranges the style to make it flow and he corrects the errors, grammatical errors. Prabhupāda: Hm. Grammatical errors is different, but philosophical... Bhagavān: No, not philosophy. Pṛthu Putra: Not philosophy. (pause) He's reading your books. Prabhupāda: So you're understanding. M. Lallier: Not always, and I simply... It's difficult to understand. Bhagavān: It's logical. M. Lallier: Yes, I think it's difficult because I am not pure, not difficult because... Bhagavān: The philosophy. The philosophy is not difficult. Yogeśvara: He's suggesting that, perhaps, the difficulty he is having in understanding your books is that he is not yet pure. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be. Bhakti line is for the purest. I was explaining this morning. Purification. Tat*-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means pure. The more you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become pure. Bhagavān: Becoming pure is not so difficult. There's facility here if you want to become pure. To take prasādam and chant with the devotees is not difficult. M. Lallier: Yes, but to understand that prasādam is the way to become pure... Yogeśvara: You just have to taste it. M. Lallier: Isn't it, isn't it necessary to be pure already? Yogeśvara: He says in order to understand the purifying effects of this prasādam, don't we already have to pure to understand it. Pṛthu Putra: Or the books. Prabhupāda: No, if you eat the prasādam, you'll be purified. Yogeśvara: Our spiritual master was explaining in Geneva to a reporter that there are different levels of understanding. It's not that we always have to have a philosophical understanding of things in order to appreciate them. Sometimes we can just appreciate that this prasādam tastes so very good. That's also correct. M. Lallier: Yes, but in occidental countries, we have a tendency to try to understand things by a mental way. Karandhara: Well, that can also be done. You can hear, listen to the philosophy, and then..., but in order to really examine it thoroughly, you have to experiment with a hypothesis. We say if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and eat prasādam, you become pure. So that may be a hypothesis so long as you don't try it, but as you try it, you come to realize that it's an actual fact. Just like if the doctor advises you to take a certain medicine for a cure of an illness, you may not have the understanding to know how that cure is going to work, but if the doctor is actually qualified, and you follow his orders, then you'll become cured, even if you didn't understand it in the beginning. Bhagavān: The problem is if you don't try. Karandhara: Or make sure you have a qualified remedy, a qualified medicine. Or doctor. One way you can see doctors... One way doctors are checked out is if they have successful, if they have had success in the past. You go to a friend and ask him, "Can you recommend a doctor who's cured you?" And he'll recommend, "Yes, you go to here. He's cured me." So if you're trying to find a spiritual master, one evidence of his potency is his disciples, how pure are his disciples. If you see that his disciples are becoming pure, then you can understand that here is a spiritual master who is giving something real. But sometimes the knowledge will come after the appreciation. Sometimes the appreciation will come after the knowledge. It can work either way. Bhagavān: So I think we can go. It's time for Prabhupāda's massage. (devotees offer obeisances and leave.) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature -- June 12, 1974, Paris Jyotirmayī: ...in France amongst the communist students, the communist Indian students. And I said he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things in the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he came very interested. *Prabhupāda: Hm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Where is Karandhara? Devotee: He's coming. *Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad*-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa, that "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend." Bhoktāram... Read out this. Pṛthu Putra: He says that liberation of India from the English was done because of many, various forces, but that amongst the people, the common mass of people who helped to liberate India, there was, of course, a religious people. But there was religious people on both sides. There was religious people amongst those who wanted to liberate India, but also among those who wanted the English to be there, not in imperialism. Yogeśvara: In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is. Whether it be imperialist, whether it be communist... Religious sentiment is found... Prabhupāda: What is religious sentiment? (French for some time) Jyotirmayī: He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and, of course, there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now... And then he said that... Prabhupāda: Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? (French for some time) Bhagavān: You don't understand what he's saying now? Because he has a different translation. *Pṛthu Putra: Because what he says, he says on the both parts, they are based on a passage of Bhagavad*-gītā. The imperialist people and the other side, they do both, sometimes on the base of Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: Who? Pṛthu Putra: The communists and the imperialists. And he sees some names, Rajagopalacharya. *Jyotirmayī: This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism. You know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. You find people referring Bhagavad*-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there. *Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation*-these things he does not know clearly. (French) Jyotirmayī: He says that now they are using religion for their own interests and for their own goals. Prabhupāda: Who is that man? (French) Jyotirmayī: He said all the social forces in India wants to keep their own privileges. Prabhupāda: So? The communist does not? (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references. Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the communists who killed them? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the communists who killed them? Prabhupāda: Communists killed others? Yogeśvara: Seven students in Assam. (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he said that in India all the planners of the government, they are religious people. Some of them are brāhmaṇas, but still they have been arresting forty*-thousand people working on the railways for no good reason. So that's why he said that religion is used by the people for their own privileges. Prabhupāda: Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French) Devotee: What he's trying to say is that some people are using... Karandhara: No, it's clear. It's clear. (French) Jyotirmayī: He said one should ask a question not according to what one thinks about religion, but what is being used now. Prabhupāda: But you cannot think, you cannot think of religion. Our conception of religion is different. (French for some time) Prabhupāda: Where are Satsvarūpa and Karandhara? Where gone? They do not want to hear? They have become...? Bhagavān: They're calling Africa. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: They may be on the phone with Africa. I'm not sure. Jyotirmayī: So he said that here in France, the Christians, they are now reviewing their own Christianity, their own philosophy, because they see that the materialistic people, they are giving critiques, and they are right in their critiques. So they are changing their religion. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying that religion has to be defined according to the way the mass of people accept it. Prabhupāda: That is not religion. That is sentiment. (French) Devotee: (To Prabhupāda, as Frenchman speaks in French:) They're on the phone speaking with Brahmānanda Mahārāja. Jyotirmayī: So he says that those who have been just religious and working for the independence, they didn't do any real good. Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, our proposition is what does he mean by religion? (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that there cannot be an abstract definition of religion, but only the experience of religion. Prabhupāda: No, we have got definition of religion. Let him learn from us. (French) Jyotirmayī: So he says that "I know what is religion, but what brings religion in the concrete life, in day to day life? What good brings religion in the life?" Yogeśvara: He said, "Even, even if I were to learn your definition of religion, the important thing is how it is practiced. Not just words," he says, "the important thing is how it is lived, how people live their..." Prabhupāda: Yes. The practice. It is practiced... Those who are real religionists, they practice it. (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said this is a real problem, how to practice religion, not only on the individual platform, but also on the social platform. Prabhupāda: No, we are teaching, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are teaching how to practice religion. (French) Jyotirmayī: He said that even though he himself is materialist and atheist, he propagates this in his articles, in his newspaper, you know, he propagates certain aspects of religion. Prabhupāda: No. First of all, we must know what is religion, and what is atheist or what is theist. First of all, if we know what is religion, then we can define who is following, who is not following. (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said what he can give is his own experience of religion and what he is propagating when he talks in his articles... Prabhupāda: What is his experience of religion? (French) Jyotirmayī: So he said that in Hinduism, what he thinks is the best... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Religion is not meant for Hindus or Christians*-for everyone. So there must be a general definition of religion. (French) *Jyotirmayī: So he said that his idea is that advaita*-vedānta philosophy is the best in the world? Prabhupāda: What is that advaita? What is that advaita? (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that advaita*-vedānta... *Prabhupāda: What is that advaita*-veda philosophy? Let him define. (French) Jyotirmayī: Advaita. A means without. Dvaita... Prabhupāda: "Without"? *Yogeśvara: "Not." Dvaita means dual. So non*-dual. *Jyotirmayī: Non*-dual. "There is not two." This is advaita. Prabhupāda: So what is that one? (French) *Yogeśvara: So what I think this gentleman is explaining is that he finds the idea of non*-dualism very attractive because he says that if a real religion is to fulfill it's responsibilities, then it will not try to teach its followers that there are two separate things, there is the creation, and there is you, the creator, that there is you. Jyotirmayī: Creator. *Yogeśvara: That there is a creator and then you, but rather, that there is a harmony with the individual being and the totality of existence, not just on an individual religious level, but also socially. So in other words, he's seeing that this advaita philosophy, this non*-dual philosophy is very nice on the political or social level as well since it teaches a kind of unity of the individual with everything. Prabhupāda: This is not very clear. (laughs) Now, dualism means two, and monism is one. So he says monism, advaita. So monism, what is the center of monism? (French) Yogeśvara: So he says that to discuss what is that center of monism is not as important as it is living the... Prabhupāda: But you cannot... If you have no objective, then you cannot live in one way. (French for some time) Prabhupāda: (aside:) I'm feeling hot. Yogeśvara: He says... Prabhupāda: Yes? Yogeśvara: ...that before... He says perhaps it would be worthwhile, he finds it worthwhile, before trying to make any definitions about the center, to first free man from all of the things that are keeping him enslaved today. In other words, before we can build a platform for... Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the meaning of freedom, how you can make them free? (French) Yogeśvara: So he says the best answer he can give you is an answer that he heard from Maharishi, he said, a very good answer, that before you can come to defining anything positively, first we must say, neti neti: "It is not this, it is not that." Then we have decided what it is not. Prabhupāda: That I am therefore asking. Whatever he is proposing, I say neti: "It is not" defining. (French) Yogeśvara: You better translate that one. Pṛthu Putra: He says that the answer of that is very often come, although it doesn't have to come with a name of God because the name of God is very often utilized to mystify the people. Yogeśvara: In other words, he's saying, "I know what you want to get me to say. You want me to say that the center is God." But he's saying, "I'd rather not say that because that's too mystical." Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of talking if you do not know the central point? He says that to come to the truth, neti neti. So we must come to the truth. So we must find out first of all truth. Then we discuss the other, subordinate things. (French) Neti neti means "Not this, not this," means to search out the truth. (French for some time, devotees try to explain Prabhupāda's challenges, RM makes a long speech.) Bhagavān: The first thing is he's talking for too long, and you're missing the point. It's getting confusing. Ask him, first of all, to speak a little shorter. (French) Yogeśvara: So he said, what he's suggesting is that first of all, we'd be better off not giving it some kind of concrete form because he thinks ultimately the silence is the best answer. Prabhupāda: Then let him learn that. If silence is best, then don't talk. Yogeśvara: Well, he says, still, we can give it some form for discussion purposes. Prabhupāda: Then what is his silence? Silence means don't talk. If you prefer silence, then don't talk. (French) Yogeśvara: He suggests, "Well, In that case, if we're going to discuss the Absolute Truth, then you can say that the ultimate is..." *Prabhupāda: But he raised that Absolute Truth is non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Non*-dual. Yogeśvara: Tat tvam asi. He's saying, "We are that." *Prabhupāda: So then, then why he raised the question of Absolute Truth, non*-dualism, neti neti? This is the discussion of Absolute Truth. So why he says, "For the time being, let us become silent"? Bhagavān: Yes, he's saying... Oh, it's hard. In other words, he's saying, "Let's get rid of everything that's not the Absolute Truth, and not talk about actually what is the Absolute Truth yet." Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the point. Bhagavān: He's just saying, "Let's get rid of..." (to RM:) You understand a little English? "Let's get rid of this bad situation, let's get rid of this bad situation, and let's not talk about really what the truth is yet because we don't know. Let's be silent about that. Let's just work to get rid of the bad elements." This is how he's trying to practice his philosophy. In other words, if there is this political problem here, let's get rid of this, and let's get rid of this one, but let's not talk about what actually the goal is yet. Pṛthu Putra: Then he said that... (French) Yogeśvara: Just for example, he says that Kṛṣṇa was urging Arjuna to fight. He says, well, that fight has two meanings. One is the historic sense, and the other one is that it's a struggle inside ourselves to get freed of all of the bad situations, to get free of our false ego, to get free of our pride. Bhagavān: The question is "What is he aiming at?" Prabhupāda: Unless we understand that what is his aim of discussion, then how we can make progress? (Yogeśvara mentions something in French about Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna) No, why you are bringing Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna? First of all, let us know what is the aim of our discussion, the subject matter of discussion. (French for some time) *Jyotirmayī: His main point when he quotes Bhagavad*-gītā is to show that it is a philosophy of action, it is dynamic, that Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight. So there was a war. It is dynamics, not just sentiment, philosophy. It is active. Yogeśvara: Yeah. Neti, neti. Getting rid of the bad elements. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is practical, practical action. Yes. (French) Yogeśvara: So he says, "Therefore we're coming back to our original point of discussion which is that real religion is not a question of a man's motives, but it's a question of his actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: "What it motivates, what does a man do, how his religion is lived. That's a point." Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are preaching. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not sitting idly and smoking gāñjā. It is not like that. (French) Yogeśvara: So what he's saying is that, "Yes, in this connection, I can compliment you (Śrīla Prabhupāda) for the work that you are doing because," from what he has experienced, "most of the people who are coming from India to preach about Kṛṣṇa, talk about Kṛṣṇa to old people or people who actually don't have any use for Hinduism or spirituality except as a kind of diversion or a drug." Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: So I think, if I understood. Prabhupāda: I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right. Pṛthu Putra: He wasn't appreciating exactly. Bhagavān: Did he appreciate? First of all... Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't appreciate what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian, with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it...? Bhagavān: Francend. (Name of paper?) Jyotirmayī: Franscend. Pṛthu Putra: Franscend. He says there is many swami and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be, who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or some kind of a dream just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point. *Prabhupāda: But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty*-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He thinks that the people in western world, mostly now they take Indian religion, some religion or philosophy come from India, because the Christian philosophy has some defect. Prabhupāda: Very good. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the religions that come from India are infinitely richer than the religion we know in the West. And we cannot see only one aspect. He says there is so many faces in Indian religions. Prabhupāda: Yes. In... The idea of philosophy and religion, that is originated from India. There is no doubt about it. And that original idea of philosophy is practically demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. The ideal original ideal of religion and philosophy is preached by Kṛṣṇa. And all the ācāryas followed that. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He said that is the distinction between the dogmatic aspect between the Hindu religions and the western religion. Bhagavān: What is that? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the western or the Christian religion are marked by dogmatists and they are very... Prabhupāda: Yes. Pṛthu Putra: And they have imperialist conception. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Yogeśvara: He says that western religions are narrow*-minded, that they don't have the openness that the religions of the East have in India, for example. And that the West has this capitalist, imperialistic tendency which is also supported by its religion. Prabhupāda: No. First... Therefore I asked what does he mean by religion. (French) *Pṛthu Putra: He says we can't say... His point is we can't say something. There is so many aspects of religion. There is the bhakti*-yoga, by love and by heart. There is the karma-yoga, by action. There's jñāna-yoga, by knowledge. He says if in western countries, we propagate bhakti-yoga, we take the risk of using bhakti-yoga like a drug or something like this, if you are dreaming or something like that. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Bhakti*-yoga by drugs? Pṛthu Putra: He says, he made the statement... Prabhupāda: That is... Pṛthu Putra: ...according to the state of the French people, in right now, in this time. Prabhupāda: But we do not prescribe drug. We ask them to give up drug. (laughter) (French) *Karandhara: What he's questioning, Prabhupāda, is whether or not bhakti*-yoga is suitable for everyone in every instance. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only yoga meant for the human being. Any other yoga system practiced, they're against bhakti*-yoga. (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that bhakti*-yoga's an escape. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Jyotirmayī: Bhakti*-yoga brings to escaping one's responsibility. *Prabhupāda: Then he does not know what is bhakti*-yoga. He does not know. (French) Arjuna did not escape. He was trying to escape, but, by bhakti-yoga, he was captured. (French) *Pṛthu Putra: He says the Bhagavad*-gītā is a... Jyotirmayī: He says it's a work which is very, very practical and rational. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti*-yoga. (French) *Jyotirmayī: He said that Anu*-gītā is also a very practical work. *Prabhupāda: No Anu*-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose. Prabhupāda: No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says he choose Radhakrishnan, he choose all the seigneur... Prabhupāda: But they, all of them... Pṛthu Putra: He reject Aurobindo... Prabhupāda: I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? (French) Now this Ramakrishna said, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way and it excludes... Prabhupāda: No, no. He... Yogeśvara: Siddheshvarananda. Pṛthu Putra: That's another... (French) *Prabhupāda: No, you cannot... If he was referring to Kṛṣṇa, if you are referring to Bhagavad*-gītā, so why don't you take it originally? (French) [break] (French) Yogeśvara: He says, he says this is the answer from Ramakrishna. When you have a thorn in your foot, you take another thorn and pluck it out, and afterwards, you throw them both away. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā does not say. Bhagavad-gītā says that "You surrender unto Me, and sustain this." Therefore he has misled. He did not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, and he misled so many fools. That is his business. One thing is, Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. And Ramakrishna says that "You can accept any path." So this is against Bhagavad-gītā. (French) Yogeśvara: He says, of the two choices, he likes Ramakrishna's better. Prabhupāda: That is his choice. But if he says that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," why should he differ? (French) Yogeśvara: He says to accommodate, to accommodate them. *Prabhupāda: No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], and Ramakrishna says that "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said... His name was Gadadhara Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion, how to live. He says the interpretation is not so... Prabhupāda: But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? (French) Yogeśvara: I think one... If I've understood, he's insisting on one point. That is the that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the *Gītā* in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public. Prabhupāda: Who is that public? Amongst you, who accepts Ramakrishna. Pṛthu Putra: He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time... *Karandhara: Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad*-gītā, but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization? Bhagavān: He said and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was... Karandhara: Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. (French) Pṛthu Putra: It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people. Prabhupāda: No. Karandhara: What mass? Prabhupāda: That is false. Karandhara: Ramakrishna's popular in the West because of his skillful propaganda... (French) Yogeśvara: He says that "Well, in a sense, we have to accept that Ramakrishna was expressing the sentiments of the public because he lived amongst the public." Prabhupāda: No, that is his false understanding. Karandhara: Still, that doesn't make it valid. Hitler, Hitler lived amongst the public too. And he was a... *Prabhupāda: No, I'll give you example that mass of people in Jagannātha Purī, in Vṛndāvana, many thousands, ten thousands, twenty thousands people, every day come, to worship Jagannātha, to worship Kṛṣṇa, but there is a Ramakrishna temple in Belurmath, or somewhere else*-nobody goes. So how do you say the mass of people are attracted to Ramakrishna? And similarly, recently, our foreign students went to Vṛndāvana, went to Navadvīpa, by thousands, but nobody goes to Ramakrishna Mission temple. Then other point: Ramakrishna Mission is working in the western world almost one hundred years. Find out their disciples so many we have got. So your statement, "It is meant for the mass of people," it is false. I have given you proof from India and from here also. That means throughout the whole world. In India nobody cares for Ramakrishna. That I have given you proof. You go to Vṛndāvana. There nobody cares for Ramakrishna. You go to Jagannātha Purī, Haridvar, so many holy places. Nobody cares for Ramakrishna. So your idea, that it is for the mass, it is false. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says he was talking about the time of Ramakrishna, when Ramakrishna was there... Prabhupāda: That, everything, bubble comes and goes away. It is no meaning. (French) Yogeśvara: He says numbers aren't really very important. Jyotirmayī: It's not a proof. Yogeśvara: It's not a proof, just numbers. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says: But that's not a proof, just to say that there are greater number. Karandhara: He was trying to submit it as a proof just a minute ago. Prabhupāda: Now, sometimes he is going this side, sometimes goes that side. Sometimes he says, "Mass of people," and again he says, "Not the number of people." What is mass of people? That is the number of people. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says, for example, he can see the mass of people in Italy, they are Catholic. But that doesn't mean he's going to be impressed by the Catholic philosophy. Prabhupāda: Now, now, we have to... He was comparing that the mass of people, they take to Ramakrishna. That I have proved. They're not, the mass of people, not at all interested... That I have proved. That is my answer. (French) Jyotirmayī: He said he was not saying that thousands of people were following Ramakrishna... Prabhupāda: What is the mass of people mean? Yogeśvara: He says Ramakrishna, whether he knew it or not, he was expressing a sentiment of the people at that time. Prabhupāda: At that time. That is finished. So that is not permanent settlement. But Kṛṣṇa's, Kṛṣṇa's, I mean to say, supremacy, at least for the last five thousand years, is intact. Now, he says Aurobindo, Gandhi, Ramakrishna. They're all gone. They came and gone. But Kṛṣṇa philosophy is truth, and it is standing, and it will go on standing. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says it's not the person important in this example. It's the idea they was expressing, all from five thousand years. The same idea was there. Prabhupāda: Yes, same idea. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam: [SB 1.3.28] "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That idea is accepted. Karandhara: No, he's saying that Aurobindo and Ramakrishna expressed that same idea in contemporary language in their own time. Prabhupāda: So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. That will not appeal. (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume' or synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform..., the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people. Prabhupāda: The people's representative is different from God's representative. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that "Well, that's a belief." You have to believe that. He said that's only a belief. Prabhupāda: No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that that's dangerous because then we run the risk of having people who say, "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God, and they're actually only interested personal, private interests..." Prabhupāda: No, if... If people... Not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that "You all not giving God's opinion." God said, Kṛṣṇa said, that "You surrender to Me," and if I say that "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? (French) Yogeśvara: In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence we must stick to the words of God without interpreting." (aside:) Is that what he said? Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. That we want. Bhagavān: (to translators:) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. (French) Prabhupāda: If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says there is some deviation, some interpretation by some philosophers or sages. They deviate... Prabhupāda: One who deviates is not a sage. He's a thief. Pṛthu Putra: Yeah, it's what he says. I'm just translating his words. Prabhupāda: No, if he deviates from the words of God, then he is not a sage. (French) Yogeśvara: He says, well, the thing that he appreciates in Hinduism is its openness and its tolerance to so many different paths and so many different interpretations. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But to abide by the orders of God, that is another thing. (French) Yogeśvara: He says then we've made the full turn again. We've come back to the beginning. (French) He said so we've actually come back to the beginning of our discussion again which is that real religion has to be judged by the actions of men. Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can judge. Here is the action of the men. Now the young men and boys and girls are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And who is taking to Ramakrishna? (French) Bhagavān: So he is a man of action, and here we have a movement of action which is solving all problems of the world. What's his complaint? It's not a dream. It's actually by following this movement, we're solving all problems. So what does he have to say? If he follows exactly what Kṛṣṇa says, then all the problems will be solved. So why doesn't he follow what Kṛṣṇa says? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He received information. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pṛthu Putra: He received information that to follow, with some interest, that to follow what Kṛṣṇa says and like that, we can solve problems. (French) And personally, he respects you. *Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's all right. But thing is that we must know that he has spoken about Ramakrishna and Aurobindo. They also center their propaganda on Kṛṣṇa. Just like I already told. Ramakrishna said, "I am the same Krishna." That means he takes to Kṛṣṇa. Aurobindo, he has written "Life Divine." That is his explanation of Bhagavad*-gītā. He takes to Kṛṣṇa. This Maharishi, he has also presented Bhagavad-gītā; he (has) taken to Kṛṣṇa. So their importance is by taking to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, they are valueless, nobody. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that for him, that's not really a problem. He says rather than referring to the person Kṛṣṇa, he just goes directly to the teaching of the *Gītā*, and he profits from that. *Prabhupāda: No, teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? (French) Yogeśvara: So his point is that, well, ultimately, the, now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? What did he...? Why he come here? What for? Yogeśvara: We invited him. (laughter) (French) *Devotee: Well, at the end of Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: He says, "Give up all this religiousness, and surrender to Me." The whole purport of the Bhagavad*-gītā. He's telling Arjuna to fight, but ultimately in the end, He's saying, "Just forget about all these ideas you have in your head, and surrender to Me." Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: "Me" means Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Right. Prabhupāda: So then Kṛṣṇa is everything. Devotee: Mām ekam. *Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." (French) So anyone who has studied Bhagavad*-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he accepts that as being... He says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yogeśvara: He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions. Prabhupāda: But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas. Bhagavān: This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. (French) *Prabhupāda: India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācāryas. Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam. So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas. Anyone you find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya. So all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says all the Christians and all the priests, that they tell to him from, that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says... Yogeśvara: Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. (French) Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it. Karandhara: The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that... Prabhupāda: Eh? Karandhara: What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they, it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify. Yogeśvara: And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem. Prabhupāda: Now, now, what is his problem. That he did never disclose. Yogeśvara: Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live. Prabhupāda: So he has got his opinion. I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything will be solved. Does he agree? (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence..." Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? (French) So... Yogeśvara: So he says, "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says, "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work." Prabhupāda: No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. (French) Bhagavān: But what practical thing is he doing? *Pṛthu Putra: What he says, what he says... He's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad*-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel. Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? (French) *Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad*-gītā, and people are very interested. *Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad*-gītā. (French) What is that? *Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad*-gītā, or presents Bhagavad-gītā, to people, he doesn't tell them that "This is the word of God and you just have to accept it." *Prabhupāda: That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad*-gītā. That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā. *Jyotirmayī: So he says that he thinks the same about us, that we are also not understanding perfectly Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Then let him understand from us. Yogeśvara: No, he says he thinks that we don't understand. Bhagavān: (Simultaneously with Yogeśvara) He thinks that we don't understand. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: He says that he thinks that we have imperfectly understood. *Prabhupāda: So let us discuss who understands, you or me. So who will decide? You are understanding or I am understanding*-who'll decide? Who will decide it? (French) *Bhagavān: So if he is a man of action, let us see. He has got his philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā. We have got our philosophy. Let us see by the results whose action is doing things. We have no political problem, we have no economic problem, we have no social problem. What more action does he want? Prabhupāda: Religious problem. Any problem. Bhagavān: No problem. So what does that indicate? And you have all problems. (French) Prabhupāda: Now, this question... Listen. Our Bhagavān says that he has no problem. We have no problem. And you have got all problems. So who is better? Who is better? Bhagavān: And anyone who joins us loses all his problems. (French) Yogeśvara: He says then that's very serious because if you have no problems, that means you are trying to escape from the world because the world is full of problems. Prabhupāda: We are in the Paris City. How we have escaped from the world? (laughter) We have got branches in London, in Paris in New York and big, big cities, and all these boys are coming from big, big cities. How they have escaped? It is not justice. If he says that "They have escaped," that is wrong statement. We are not escaping anything. (French) Bhagavān: What kind of proof are you looking for? Let's talk about proof. What kind of proof are you looking for? (French) Prabhupāda: Now, another point is he's accusing us that we're escaping. Why he's escaping Kṛṣṇa consciousness? (French) Yogeśvara: He says he thinks that what we're doing is simply a kind of medicine that doesn't actually resolve the problems that people are facing. Prabhupāda: If it is not result, then how this boy says, "We have no problem"? The patient says that he is cured, and you say that it is not curing? (French) Bhagavān: (to translators) So repeat to Prabhupāda what he said. (French) We have proof that anyone from any part of the world who takes to this process loses his problems. It's not a matter of western or eastern. (French) Yogeśvara: With your permission, he would like to take leave. Prabhupāda: Why? He should stay with us. Let us conclude. Why you are flying away? We have started one discussion. Let it be finished. Why you are going away? (French) That means he is escaping. Yogeśvara: He says because he works in the evenings. He's a theater critic. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Some way or other, he's escaping. (French) A man... Yogeśvara: With pleasure, he would like to come back to finish the discussion. Prabhupāda: Yes. (French) Jyotirmayī: And with friendship. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes. That's it. Don't escape. (French) When we have begun the discussion, let us finish. Don't escape. Thank you. Haribol. Jaya. Thank you. (R.M. leaves) Bhagavān: Make sure he has some more prasādam before he goes. Jyotirmayī: I'll bring it. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hmm, open. Paramahaṁsa: (to devotees outside room) ...Prabhupāda is very tired. He's just finished a long evening. Prabhupāda: So when there is discussion, you should all be present. It is very interesting. Those who are our men, GBC men, they must know. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They come in like Keśī demon, and they go out with prasādam in their mouth. Prabhupāda: They are escaping. We are not escaping. We want to capture everyone. (laughter) He has no clear idea what is the aim of life. Yogeśvara: He likes to see people engaged in work that is humanitarian, that will resolve the problems of the world. Prabhupāda: That everyone says. All rascals says like that. Humanitarian. He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and communist. This is their humanitarian work. *Devotee: He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad*-gītā in a certain way like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is... Prabhupāda: Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: They're trying to interpret that Kṛṣṇa is just our own intelligence or... Bhagavān: The point is even when they see the practical proof, they don't accept it. They're so stubborn. Prabhupāda: You be strong. Don't be... They cannot conquer us. But you be more strong. (end) Morning Walk -- June 13, 1974, Paris Prabhupāda: What do you understand by the word "māyā"? Yogeśvara: That which is not. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Things which we place value on that have no relation to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: The māyā is explained very nicely in the Bhāgavata, yathābhāso yathā tamaḥ. Just like sun is reflected in the water, and the light is reflected again on the wall. This is the exact explanation of māyā. Reality, this material world, the man who manufactured all these things, nobody knows where he has gone, but these things are taken as reality. This will be also finished. It will remain as relics, as Rome, relics, but when it was..., the houses were prepared with great enthusiasm as reality. And now it is as relics. So the energy expended for manufacturing those house, that is also māyā, and now they are being visited as relics. That is also māyā. So all these things are māyāra vaibhava, expansion of māyā. So if somebody says that you don't appreciate these things? No, we appreciate, very much appreciate intelligence. But if you, for this appreciation, if you forget, then it is māyā. Forget Kṛṣṇa. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Then it is māyā. Otherwise, it is reality. If they would have installed Deity worship in these buildings, how much nice it would have been. People chanting, dancing, and taking prasādam, twenty*-four hours. Then it is no more māyā. It is reality. Such big, big, nice houses, they should have been places of worshiping Kṛṣṇa. But they're worshiping bones, keeping some dead bones, and... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: People must be educated that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is a fact. Why they do not understand? Paramahaṁsa: The government argues that they do not want to discriminate against any religious faith. So they remain secular. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is no governmen... Religious faith is different. That is nonsense. You, we are talking of science. We are, just like we were saying that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So where is the, any religious feeling? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, how you can say no? Can you say? Paramahaṁsa: They can say, "We don't know Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: You don't know Kṛṣṇa, but it belongs to somebody. He may be named as Kṛṣṇa or something else. That doesn't matter. But it is, it does not belong to you. How you can deny it? You have come here... Suppose I have come here, in Paris. I stay here for one week, two. Does it mean Paris is mine? Similarly, you come from the womb of your mother and stay here, say, fifty years. That is mean yours? The same example. Does it mean that the world belongs to you? Why you are claiming, "This is France," "This is Europe," "This is America," "This is mine," "This is mine..."? Before your birth it was there, and when you go, it will remain there. So how you claim that it is yours? So you don't... You must know as it remained, it was there before my birth, and it will remain after my departure. Then how it belongs to you? What is the answer? Paramahaṁsa: It belongs to the man who created it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: It belongs to the man who created it and is conscious of its origin. Prabhupāda: Who created? Who created? You created this stones and sand? Paramahaṁsa: Nature. Prabhupāda: Then what is nature? Satsvarūpa: The life force working behind... Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Satsvarūpa: They'd say the life force is working... Prabhupāda: Therefore nature is... Behind the nature, there is Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa... [Bg. 9.10]. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: How is it possible, Śrīla Prabhupāda? We're so tiny, one ten-thousandth the tip of a hair, and yet we can become so puffed-up as to think that even I am God or I am the controller of the material nature like the scientists are thinking? Prabhupāda: Because they are in the bodily concept of life, they are thinking, "I'm not teeny, small particle. I am this big, fatty body." He's thinking like that. Just like a dog is thinking, "I am bulldog." It is like that, the same concep... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So that idea just in the mind? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is animalism. (pause) [break] Paramahaṁsa: ...performing these works and these creations independent of God. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: The materialist sees himself acting independent of God. *Prabhupāda: How he's independent of God? Napoleon wanted to finish that arch, and he was kicked out. How he's independent of God. Such a big person, strong person, he wanted to finish, but he was not allowed to finish. Then how he thinks that he's independent. That is foolishness, that I can be kicked out at any moment, and still he's thinking "I am independent." What is the answer? Why he was kicked out? He was a very powerful man, and why he was kicked out? "No, you cannot finish. You go, get out immediately." Then? Where is his independence. He was simply falsely puffed*-up independent. And now, after being kicked out, if he has taken the body of a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. The nature is so strong and the laws are so stringent. We are not independent. If you touch fire, fire is one of the elements, it will burn your finger. However powerful you may be, you cannot stop it. Then where is your independence? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: We studied a verse yesterday evening in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Eighteenth Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says, "Work always under My protection." Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says to always work under His protection, that "One may be engaged in all sorts of activities, but, in the end, by My grace, you will come back to Me." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So the activities of the materialistic man, then, no matter what he does, he will develop another material body for it. (indistinct) Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: And a devotee is acting, but he's not getting any mental impression? From his activities? *Prabhupāda: His mind is being... His mental expression is Kṛṣṇa. He's always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma. We have got some propensity to create. Just like this beautiful place. We have got creative energy. Therefore it is advised that nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa*-sambandhe. Make it for Kṛṣṇa. You'll find in India, they have also created big, big temples, four flight, but for Kṛṣṇa. Then the energy spent for creating this park, in relationship with Kṛṣṇa will be utilized as service to Kṛṣṇa. And if it simply meant for sense gratification, then you are under the laws of nature, contaminated. Just like if a man is very powerful, he's creating this park, but he is contaminated with some infection, he, will he not suffer? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: He must suffer. *Prabhupāda: Does it mean that because he has created this park, therefore contamination will not act upon him? Is it a fact? It must act. So after creating all these things, if you contaminate some infectious modes of material nature, then you have to accept the body of cats and dogs. Then what is your benefit? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. Kāraṇam, the reason for high and low grade birth is due to contamination with the modes of material nature. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, we said that, Prahlāda Mahārāja said that he didn't fear Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, even though he was so ferocious, but he feared the material nature. Prabhupāda: That is contamination. If I be contaminated with the material nature, then I'll have to accept a body given by material nature. Paramahaṁsa: But it's said that a devotee's supposed to be fearless. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: It is said that a devotee is supposed to be fearless. Prabhupāda: Fearless because devotee means one who has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa. He's devotee. He's fearless. And one who has not taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, how he can be fearless? Suppose there is epidemic disease, if you have got vaccination, then you can remain fearless. Otherwise, the epidemic will contaminate and then you'll have to suffer. So Kṛṣṇa is the vaccination to remain fearless. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You have used the example, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that just like a little child, when he's near his father, he knows he has nothing to worry about. His father will protect him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... Today, it is cold, eh? Where is our Karandhara? Bhagavān: Karandhara Prabhu. He's here. Prabhupāda: You are feeling very cold? Karandhara: Not too cold, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: I am feeling. Old man. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Would you like this blanket also, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So as soon as the modes of nature are no longer working on the spirit soul, then he experiences that he's no longer changing his body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te [Bg. 7.14]. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: By taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. The thing is that if I am so much susceptible to the contamination of māyā, the modes of material nature, then if I waste my time in material advancement of life, is it not risky? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Very risky. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Just the other morning, you were lecturing that just because we are young, we should not waste a moment here and think that "Oh, I have so much time to live. Let me put off Kṛṣṇa consciousness..." Prabhupāda: That is fall consciousness. Prahlāda Mahārāja said: "immediately..." Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān [SB 7.6.1]. No waste after. Our policy is that. Therefore we have opened Dallas, that immediately, from the very beginning of life let them understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda if the devotee is fearless, how is it that Prahlāda was expressing his fearfulness of material nature? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yogeśvara: If the devotee is fearless, how is it Prahlāda was expressing his fearfulness of the material nature? Yogeśvara: It's sometimes very hard to feel a compassion for others when we ourselves are still feeling so much contaminated. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: We, in the neophyte stage, we're feeling ourselves so much attacked by māyā that sometimes it's very difficult... Prabhupāda: Therefore those who do not take risk, they do not remain within this material world. They go to the Himalaya, go to the forest. They are afraid of being contaminated. But more liberal devotees, they take the risk and "Never mind, I shall go to hell. Let me do something for Kṛṣṇa. Let others may understand something of Kṛṣṇa." That is their, mean magnanimity, taking the risk of going to hell, still, giving the information, "Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa." So such persons are exalted. Because they are taking their own risk to serve Kṛṣṇa. That at least one man may understand Kṛṣṇa. And others, they are flying, flying away, fleeing away, "No, no. We are not going to take risk." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says that there's no one more dear to Me than... Prabhupāda: Goṣṭhyānandī and bhajanānandī. Bhajanānandī means they are interested for their own welfare, and goṣṭhyānandī, he wants to see that more devotees are there. That is the difference. Paramahaṁsa: Actually, Prahlāda Mahārāja said that he's not feeling any anxiety for himself... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Paramahaṁsa: He's feeling anxiety that they're not taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: They're... And, on account of his being so, taking the risk, he is immediately very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is declared in the Bhagavad*-gītā, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ [Bg. 18.69]. "Anyone who is trying to broadcast My message, My glory, he immediately, there is no more dearer than him anyone." So one should take this risk. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday you said that Kṛṣṇa appreciates the devotee when he accepts voluntary adversity. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, you said that Kṛṣṇa appreciates when a devotee accepts voluntary adversity. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Like the kings who gave up everything to live an ascetic life. Paramahaṁsa: But how do we know what, how do we know when we should accept this adversity? Sometimes people artificially... Prabhupāda: No, no. Adversity, not always to accept. But you have to follow the regulative principle enjoined in the śāstras. That is, in one sense... Suppose you are accustomed to certain type of, standard of living, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake, you have to give it up. That kind of adversity. That is not actually adversity, but he thinks that "I have taken this voluntary..." What is this, electric? So not a single useful tree. These trees are no fruits, no flowers. Yogeśvara: Yes. Can we call these trees demonic? Prabhupāda: Not demonic. Sinful. Paramahaṁsa: They have many seeds to reproduce themselves, but no fruits or flowers. Prabhupāda: Impious, not pious. What is the name of this park? Yogeśvara: The Tuilerie Park. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yogeśvara: The Tuilerie Garden. Prabhupāda: Tuilerie. Yogeśvara: Tuilerie Garden. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That is the name of a person? Devotee: No, no. French devotee: It was the park of a king before. There was a king. Prabhupāda: Oh, the king is a park only. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So you were explaining that they're naming everything in the material world after different people in regards to Lake Geneva. You said, "It's Geneva's lake, but actually, it is Kṛṣṇa's lake, or Kṛṣṇa's park." Prabhupāda: Yes, but they have no sense. They think it is Geneva's park. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: We could call it Puruṣottama Park, or something like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Therefore, we give name everyone: Kṛṣṇa dāsa, servant of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) [break] Paramahaṁsa: ...and we give them the argument, could you eat if we brought you the cow and let you kill her yourself, and they say, "No, I could not do that." (Prabhupāda chuckles) But yet, when the cow's meat is killed and wrapped up in a nice wrapper, they eat, and they don't have any bad feeling about it. Prabhupāda: This is called māyā. He cannot face the actual situation, but, covered by some māyā, he accepts. This is another example of māyā. Directly killing the animal he cannot tolerate, but when it is covered by māyā, the same danger, he accepts. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It is like the people: they say that the air is very polluted. We cannot breathe it now. And they will smoke cigarettes also. Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Actually, our preaching work is when we show people how, by avoiding Kṛṣṇa, they actually kill themselves. *Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Suicidal. Ātma*-han. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said, jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Knowingly, I am drinking poison. Knowingly. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Paramahaṁsa: Although a devotee feels helpless in the hands of Kṛṣṇa, still, in order to execute his duty, he must be very strong. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: How does he reconcile those two? *Prabhupāda: He must work for Kṛṣṇa. He is not doing anything for himself. He's doing for Kṛṣṇa. For Kṛṣṇa's sake, one can take any kind of risk. Just like the karmīs, they take any kind of risk for earning some money similarly, bhakta also will take any kind of risk to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Guru*-kṛṣṇa. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. So it is not very clean. Why? Paramahaṁsa: Many, many people come here every day and not too many people clean. It's difficult to have people clean. They think it's too low, as an occupation. Devotee: They spend their money making bombs instead of sanitation. (Prabhupāda laughs) (pause) Prabhupāda: Why? Paramahaṁsa: Instead of taking bath every day, they use perfume on their body. Fifty years ago, very few people had a shower in the home, and they would go to a public bath once a week or twice a week for a bath. Most of the time they cleaned themselves off with alcohol. Prabhupāda: They still, in Germany, they have no bath in every house. They go to the public bath. Is it not? They, simply they have got only one toilet. That's all. And for taking bath, they go the public house. They have to pay some... [break] Hmm? *Devotee: The creation of the materialism is only one*-fourth. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: What happened to the other three*-fourths? Prabhupāda: What is this picture? Paramahaṁsa: It's a Greek myth. Prabhupāda: Whom he's killing? Paramahaṁsa: It's a man with the head of a... French Devotee: ...the head of a bull. The head of a bull. Devotee: Head of donkey. Prabhupāda: No, it is goat, goat. Paramahaṁsa: These are called centaurs. Devotee: It's a man with a bull's head. Yogeśvara: Like Dakṣa. Prabhupāda: Dakṣa? Yogeśvara: Dakṣa has a head of a goat. Prabhupāda: Dakṣa. Dakṣa. Yes. Mahārāja Dakṣa. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In order to chant the holy name purely, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it necessary to feel separation? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: In order to chant the holy name purely, is it necessary to have feelings of separation? Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided he has got the taste for chanting. Otherwise he'll sleep. That's all. (pause) These are all buildings for museum? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, and some small parts are used for administrative offices, the government and police. This used to be a king's palace. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: This used to be the king's palace, of France. French Devotee: (indistinct) Paramahaṁsa: Yes, this was the palace before they built the big palace in Versailles. Versailles is like a demigod's planet. It's the most wonderful building in all of France. Everything in gold, and wonderful paintings. Very, very big, and wonderful gardens and rivers. The king of France was very intelligent. In order to keep the nobles from revolting against him, he invited them all to his palace to enjoy with him. And he gave them wonderful feasts and a lot of sex life, and wonderful music. And like this, they never revolted during his time. This was Louis the Fourteenth. French Devotee: He was called the sun king. Paramahaṁsa: They call him the saintly king. French Devotee: Sun, sun. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, the sun king. Prabhupāda: What is that sun king? Paramahaṁsa: Why do they call him "Sun King"? French Devotee: Because he was very opulent. Paramahaṁsa: Today, the French people collect millions of dollars every year from the Americans to keep Versailles beautiful. Prabhupāda: American tourists pay. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, many hundreds and thousands of American tourists come there every year just to see this opulence. Yogeśvara: The Americans appreciate opulence. That's why we joined your movement. *Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) Yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. So because in your previous life, you had been pious, you have got your life in America, and now utilize it. Certainly, I, several times I have told that your previous life, you were pious. There is no doubt about it. And now utilize that opportunity. You have got opulence. You have got money. You have got intelligence. Utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. And Kṛṣṇa has also come. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has come to your country. So utilize it properly. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: I think we must be extraordinarily fortunate that Lord Kṛṣṇa, He appears once in a day of Brahmā, and He appeared just five thousand years ago. And then Lord Caitanya just appeared five hundred years ago, and we have an opportunity to associate with Them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Always remember this grace of Lord and utilize it. (long pause) So these houses were constructed before Napoleon, or after Napoleon? Yogeśvara: Before. French Devotee: Oui. Oui. These big house? Prabhupāda: Yes. French Devotee: Before Napoleon. But this arch is called Carousel Arch, and that's for Napoleon. Prabhupāda: After Napoleon? French Devotee: On the glories of some victories in Germany, you know and... (end) Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris Guest: I have a very good friend in India called Śrī Kṛṣṇa Prema. You have known him? Prabhupāda: He was professor in Lucknow University. His name was Mr. Nixon. Guest: Lucknow? Prabhupāda: Nixon. Guest: Yes, his name was Nixon. [break] Church Representative: Professor? Prabhupāda: Kotovsky. Church Representative: Kotovsky. Prabhupāda: He is the director of Indology in Moscow. Church Representative: I see. Prabhupāda: So my talk with was published in some... Church Representative: Yes, I have this book in my office in Paris. Prabhupāda: But he does not believe in incarnation and he still, he is professor of Indology. (French) Karandhara: He doesn't believe in the soul. Professor Kotovsky, he doesn't believe in the existence of soul. Church Representative: But I think that he is a Marxist. Karandhara: Yes. Or at least he has to appear as one to maintain his position. Prabhupāda's point is that... Church Representative: There are many professor in Russia of religion, on the history of religion, but who don't believe in nothing. *Karandhara: That was Prabhupāda's point that it's ironic that in modern societies men are called professors, or being proficient in knowledge, but yet they're ignorant of the soul, which is the most basic knowledge, the most fundamental knowledge. According to the Vedic system, Indian system, even a most ignorant man knows about the soul, what to speak of the great learned sages. But in this society, western society, the so-called learned men-they're supposed to be the topmost learned men*-they don't even know of the soul. Therefore they're not even in the class of an ignorant man. They're lower than even ignorance. *Prabhupāda: And according to Vedic understanding, one who does not understand what is soul-he identifies himself with this body*-he is animal. Church Representative: This is also a fundamental idea of Christian spiritual. (French) *Prabhupāda: So in the Vedic language, one who has taken this body as self, yasyātma*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13], and sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu, and own men, the family, society, community, national, not outside that, sva-dhīḥ, "They are my own men." sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, and the land of birth worshipable, nationalism, yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicit, and holy place, to take bath in the water of Jordan or Ganges, such persons are considered as go-kharaḥ. Go means cow, kharaḥ means ass. That means animals. What is your conception of the soul? Do you believe in the soul? (French) Yogeśvara: He understands English. Church Representative: I understand. My conception of soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Church Representative: Could you (sic:) precise your question, because what do you mean by this... Prabhupāda: Soul... Church Representative: Yes, I know... I cannot say that I know what is soul. I know that there are souls, that I have a soul. But I think that it's very difficult to give adequate... (French) Yogeśvara: He says he knows that he has a soul, but he thinks it would be hard to give an accurate definition of the soul. Prabhupāda: But if he knows what is soul, where is the difficulty to give definition? (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) So he says he can accept that he has a soul... Church Representative: Certainly, I accept. Yogeśvara: But it would be hard to describe, he thinks, the nature of the soul. The body, which is something tangible, we can describe. But something of a spiritual nature like the soul must be much more difficult to describe. Prabhupāda: You can describe it by the negative way, that soul is not body. (French) Yogeśvara: (translating) Then we are still left with the problem: what is the relationship between the two? *Prabhupāda: First of all let us understand what is the soul. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā: na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Adāhyo 'yam aśoṣyo 'yam akledyo 'yam. Read those paragraphs. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Translation. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "Translation: For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (French) Prabhupāda: Next verse. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Church Representative: I have nothing to say against. But I cannot say that it is a definition. Do you say in English, definition? Prabhupāda: Yes, definition. Church Representative: I cannot say that it is a definition. It is a sort of creed, a profession of faith. *Prabhupāda: No, it is characteristic. Definition means you mention the characteristic. That is definition. Definition, you mention the characteristic. So that can be mentioned directly, or if it is not perceivable, then you can define in opposite way. Just like we have got experience: everything in the material world, it is beginning. There is a beginning. Anything of this-your body, my body, everything*-it has got a beginning, and it has got an end. So it is stated, na jāyate na mriyate vā: "It has no beginning, no end." And nityaḥ, eternal, śāśvataḥ, very old, purāṇaḥ. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "It is not destroyed, annihilated, after the destruction of the body." So if we accept this definition, then we can understand the soul is eternal. Our characteristic, if we accept these characteristics, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20], after the destruction of body the soul is never destroyed, then you can understand the soul is eternal. And it is clearly stated, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "After the destruction of the body, it is not destroyed." So, it means it takes another body. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that's not necessarily the logical conclusion. He says he's familiar with that theory, but it's more a question of faith. He says it's not actually a logical conclusion that if the soul leaves this body it must take another one. (French) Prabhupāda: What does he mean by logic? Yogeśvara: He says that means that it's not something that's very evident to me. Prabhupāda: It may not be evident to him, but why not others? (French) Yogeśvara: He says one thing is that he feels kind of glad that it's more or less a question of opinion because if it was Absolute Truth, then it would be too restricting for everyone. Prabhupāda: No, it is Absolute Truth. But there are different ways of understanding Absolute Truth. He is taking only one way, direct perception. (French) Yogeśvara: He said, if it were an absolute truth, it would be evident to everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. But everyone is not advanced in knowledge. (French) Yogeśvara: He says the question remains because there are other, very spiritually advanced men who don't accept that idea. Prabhupāda: No, somebody may be known as spiritually advanced according to the society, but he may not be. So another thing is that what is the way of understanding the Absolute Truth. Let him explain. What is the standard way of understanding Absolute Truth? (French) Yogeśvara: He says he doesn't have an answer in that kind of a context. Church Representative: No context, problematic. Prabhupāda: It may be problematic to some, but Absolute Truth can be understood by śruti, authoritative hearing. Karandhara: When the Absolute reveals Himself, then... Śruti means the absolute knowledge from the Absolute, from God. Prabhupāda: Yes, the Absolute Truth is known by the absolute method which is called śruti, hearing from the Absolute. Absolute cannot be imagined or speculated. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that is a fundamental point. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore we accept Absolute Truth from the Absolute. *Karandhara: And according to the Vedic system, in different times and different places, according to the mentality and the culture of the people, the Absolute has made Himself known on different levels, higher and lower levels. But that... The Absolute as revealed through the Vedas, specifically the Bhagavad*-gītā, is the most advanced level. It is the standard by which all other levels are judged. It is the most advanced, complete knowledge. Church Representative: Yes, I know this. I know. I know this. *Karandhara: But it's not just an opinion. It's not just a secular idea. By scientific principle, if we consider the logic of all the propositions of Bhagavad*-gītā in relation to the Bible and Koran, if we're actually impartial and open, then we'll understand that truth. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of superior logic, extending the same basic truths to their highest perfection. So in discussing the merits of Bhagavad-gītā versus another scripture, it's not that we're trying to argue just for the sake of polemics but to establish the real standard, what is the most elevated or advanced standard of the knowledge. Bhagavān: But people are suffering due to lack of that accurate knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to make that knowledge available in practical activity to stop this suffering. It is not just a philosophy without practice. That is the reason why it is important for discussing, not just for the sake of discussing but for the sake of bringing out the highest principles for action. *Prabhupāda: So according to Vedic way, Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth. Kṛṣṇa is Absolute Truth, accepted by the ācāryas. Indian civilization is carried on the advice of the ācārya*-sampradāya. So all the ācāryas like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they all accept Kṛṣṇa as the Absolute Truth. So when we hear from Kṛṣṇa then we get absolute knowledge. Karandhara: The reason why we gather like this to discuss these principles is that just like a group of scholars will gather to refine and crystallize their knowledge. Guest: (French) Yogeśvara: He must excuse himself, he has a prior engagement. Guest: I thank you so much for your... I must go now. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (some people leave) Karandhara: I'd just like to finish the one point I was making, that the reason we gather like this and we desire to discuss with other personalities, other people with different views of religion, is for the sake of the edification of everyone, so that the highest principles can be isolated and so we can advance the purpose of religiosity. It's not simply for the sake of argument that we pose questions. But it's for the sake of the edification or the crystallization of the highest principles of religion. Church Representative: I absolutely agree on this point, certainly. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he's familiar with this principle. He says he knows of it, but he doesn't consider himself to be an expert. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: But because you are part of God, you have real interest in this. Everyone. Church Representative: Certainly. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he's willing to admit this philosophy even though he doesn't belong to it himself. He sees this as being... Paramahaṁsa: He appreciates the fact that it has a coherent aspect, that it holds together logically. And this is what he appreciates. Yogeśvara: He respects the Vaiṣṇava philosophy because it is substantial. It doesn't contradict itself. Karandhara: So then the... If the Vaiṣṇava philosophy has a systematic logic, then integrity would dictate that we have to surrender or accept that logic. If a logic is true, we can't stand apart from it and simply observe it. We have to accept it ourselves. Church Representative: (French) Bhagavān: You are right on the brink of Absolute Truth. Don't run away. (laughs) Yogeśvara: He says that even though he has a great interest in this discussion, because he has prior commitments, he's unable to stay. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all... Bhagavān: Take some prasādam. (French) Yogeśvara: He already has the books. Prabhupāda: He has our...? He has got...? (French) That's all right. He has got. Church Representative: I have, and I have read with great interest. Thank you very much. (French) I was thinking that it was only a formal visit. Bhagavān: Tomorrow night we have very nice conference in Salle Pleyal. Church Representative: I have seen in many places. I have seen you. Bhagavān: So you're welcome to come. Church Representative: Thank you. (leaves) Karandhara: This man was... What is his position? Bhagavān: He's the head of the Russian Orthodox Church. Karandhara: He's the head of the church but he cannot... He feels he's not qualified to discuss spiritual matters. Bhagavān: Once last year a man in London, a professor in a religious school, said the same thing, and you said that according to our Vedic philosophy, if a teacher doesn't know something, he should step down. And His answer was, "I can't do that." (Prabhupāda chuckles) Paramahaṁsa: It seems amazing that such fundamental questions, they remain mute, such people like this, who are supposed to be qualified to bring other people out of their distress. Karandhara: That's why the church now has lost everyone, because even its leaders are saying, "I don't know anything. I'm just fumbling around like everyone else. I don't really know anything definite." Prabhupāda: Still, he is leader? Karandhara: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The impersonalists, Lord Caitanya said that they are the greatest offenders to Lord Kṛṣṇa. So most of the so-called religious people of the world today, if they have a conception of God, it is that God is impersonal spirit. Does that mean they are to be classified, at least in terms of this understanding, amongst the demons and asuras? Karandhara: No, in this instance this man is... It's not as much that he's an impersonalist as that he has no clear idea one way or the other. He's ignorant. An impersonalist is someone in the classic sense who has... He's aware of the Vaiṣṇava philosophy, but he rejects that, that God is definitely not a person, and he takes that as being a lower conception. Bhagavān: In ignorance, though, even though he's in ignorance, he is hurting people due to his ignorance by... He's claiming to be a teacher, and even though he may be innocent or ignorant, because he's in that position of leader, he's actually hurting people, wasting their life. French Devotee: He left, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because he was very afraid that we were right. Bhagavān: He said he had another engagement. Paramahaṁsa: In the world today it seems as if, just like men take advantage of women and make them topless and bottomless, also they try and encourage people like this to be leaders of religion. That way the mass of people don't take any real interest. They do this in Russia too. They kill the sincere religious leaders, and they put their own men as religious leader, and it just sort of undermines the whole purity and the importance in the instruction, and then no one repeats it. *Karandhara: In the West also, in the past ten years there's been a resurgence of what's called fundamentalism. For so long the Christian liturgy, the Christian doctrine, got so hodge*-podge and so wishy-washy that people were leaving because there was simply nothing there solid for them to grasp onto. Now fundamentalism, or the very basic principles that God is the Almighty and that we are sinners and if we don't repent, God's going to strike us down with wrath and anger, that basic principle of fear of God, that is receiving new support. Many people are coming back to that because even though it's a very vague thing, still it's something definite. "God is there, and if I do something wrong, He's going to cut me down," rather than, "Well, nothing's wrong, nothing's right," it's all hodge-podge, wish wash. People can't grasp onto that. There's nothing for them to... Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda, "nothing wrong, nothing right. Everything is all right," Vivekananda's philosophy. Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think we'll leave around 7:30, so perhaps you can take a little rest before the engagement. Prabhupāda: Hm. (end) Room Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru -- June 13, 1974, Paris Deshimaru: (French) Yogeśvara: (translating for Deshimaru) He suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (French) Yogeśvara: This force is the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. So soul is a person. (French) Yogeśvara: He's confused: what do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person. Prabhupāda: Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person. Yogeśvara: His question is: how is it that the soul is also a person? Prabhupāda: Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. (French) Yogeśvara: He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference, that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one. Prabhupāda: Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat. It is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that to... He doesn't see the application. He says if we're just... Prabhupāda: Why not application? Why not application? Yogeśvara: He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not. Prabhupāda: Because he has got different dress, different person. (French) Yogeśvara: So he's asking: therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering? Prabhupāda: That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all... Just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (French) (aside:) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC? Yogeśvara: Because there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it. Pṛthu Putra: (correcting Yogeśvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. If you receive an arrows. You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body because that's the cause of suffering. Prabhupāda: Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks? Satsvarūpa: I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work. Prabhupāda: That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man Bhagavān dāsa? These important talks going on and you do not..., you think that you have learned everything. What is this? Yogeśvara: This young gentleman's question is: if you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it. Prabhupāda: No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows. Yogeśvara: That is his point also. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self. Prabhupāda: Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. (French) Yogeśvara: Yes, he must understand that he is crazy. Prabhupāda: Yes. He must know... He may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man. Bhagavān: Yogeśvara, let Pṛthu translate. Pṛthu Putra: His point... He says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity... Prabhupāda: So the insanity is just like you are dressed and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance. Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese, I am Englishman, I am German, I am Indian, I am white, I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. (French) Pṛthu Putra: They believe that the soul and the body is one thing. Prabhupāda: How it is one? Pṛthu Putra: He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated. Prabhupāda: How the man becomes dead? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force. Yogeśvara: Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth. Prabhupāda: Merges? Yogeśvara: Just like a flower grows from the earth... Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies... [break] (French) He says, himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer. Prabhupāda: Zen philosophy answer? (French) Yogeśvara: He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything. Prabhupāda: And what you are now? Yogeśvara: And now he is himself. Now he is different. Prabhupāda: So how you became from zero? Pṛthu Putra: No, he don't say he is different. He says, "Now I am myself." (French) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same. Prabhupāda: Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the man is there. The suffering is there. Prabhupāda: No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero, beginning, and he will be zero and now he is also zero. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect: everything is zero. But there is another aspect. There is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem. Prabhupāda: Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter) Karandhara: Just dying that solves all the problems. Prabhupāda: No, he said that is natural. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says religious life is a very deep thing on man and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it doesn't matter. He has to search. Prabhupāda: No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says actually he doesn't start from zero. He starts from the cosmic force. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pṛthu Putra: He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force. Prabhupāda: That means... You cannot define: that means your knowledge is imperfect. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down... Yogeśvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. A human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force. Prabhupāda: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease, unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says one thing: we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. (French) Pṛthu Putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. That, what is the cause of the suffering? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself. Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge. (French) Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? (French) Yogeśvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant. Prabhupāda: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says this knowledge is there anywhere for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested. Prabhupāda: No, why...? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance. Prabhupāda: What is that something? Do you know it? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He called this things God. That is God. Prabhupāda: So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "Well, all right, that's O.K. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering." Prabhupāda: Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. (French) Yogeśvara: He says but you are suffering still. Prabhupāda: I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. (French) Yogeśvara: He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment. Prabhupāda: But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? (French) Yogeśvara: He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question. Prabhupāda: No, we are not choosing, God is asking to do this. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result. Prabhupāda: No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside) Go. Take sleep. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying... Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. (French) Bhagavān: According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? (French) Prabhupāda: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says from the medical point that's all right. But from the religious point... Prabhupāda: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life... Prabhupāda: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy. Karandhara: Prabhupāda, the premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens. Prabhupāda: That is also desire, to give up all desire. Karandhara: Yes, it is. Prabhupāda: That is also desire. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori without anything, then he is practicing the satori. Prabhupāda: Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles) Karandhara: No point. It's ambiguous. (French) Pṛthu Putra: For himself it's just to practice zazen, to meditate on Zen. Prabhupāda: That is also desire. *Pṛthu Putra: He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that. We would like to know God or something like that. But by practicing zazen finally we just come to the point*-we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen. Prabhupāda: Then what is that position of no desire? Karandhara: The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again without any self. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force. Bhagavān: Does that harmony means to merge? Prabhupāda: Now let me explain. Suppose the material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? (French) Yogeśvara: Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer. Pṛthu Putra: He says so then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal... Prabhupāda: But I mean to say what result you will get more than the cats and dogs? Karandhara: Why practice? (French) Bhagavān: What happens to the cat and the dog in the end? Karandhara: Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, that the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness. Prabhupāda: Then they have to accept good work and bad work. Karandhara: Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul or the self takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy... *Prabhupāda: That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Śūnyam means, you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna*-karmādy-anāvṛtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu..., you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Karandhara: Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self... Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished. No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. (French) Karandhara: Their point is they come... Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego. Prabhupāda: No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire. Karandhara: Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire. Prabhupāda: So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. (French) It is something like this. Just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievousless. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievousless, that he does not know. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire. Karandhara: No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say spiritual then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire, when we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material. Prabhupāda: Purified, purified. Yogeśvara: Purified desire. (French) Bhagavān: Prabhupāda says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite but it's pure desire. (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but... Prabhupāda: Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. (French) Karandhara: They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material. Prabhupāda: No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease. He is also lying down. He is also eating. He is also passing stool. And if he is informed that "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again...?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured." Karandhara: Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy. Prabhupāda: That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are... Together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal. Prabhupāda: But he has no knowledge that although... Just like here is my leg, and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? (French) Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life. Prabhupāda: Then why... How he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand. Yogeśvara: He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain... Prabhupāda: Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As soon I prick the nail cutter here, oh that "Ooooo!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand? Pṛthu Putra: The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material. Prabhupāda: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. (French) Karandhara: It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. (French) Prabhupāda: As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. (French) Yogeśvara: He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many many things afterwards. Prabhupāda: Yes, soul has a form. (French) Yogeśvara: He's asking is the form of the soul material? Prabhupāda: No, spiritual. (French) Yogeśvara: He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form. Prabhupāda: Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. (French) Karandhara: You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards... They get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't, they don't have the next step, or the spiritual. Prabhupāda: No understanding of the spiritual. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter. Karandhara: What that means... That's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything because everything is everything. Yogeśvara: There's no discrimination. Karandhara: Yes, there's no self. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one. Prabhupāda: Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says yes, for sure, we all die. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says but the goal... Prabhupāda: Has the dead man has any daily life? (French) Yogeśvara: He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin. Prabhupāda: That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles) Karandhara: No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? (French) Prabhupāda: That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him. Prabhupāda: What is that? Pṛthu Putra: What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life. Bhagavān: So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too. Bhagavān: Are you a demon? (French) Pṛthu Putra: As we want. *Prabhupāda: No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal*-killing. So he wanted to stop this animal-killing. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message. Karandhara: Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind, that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else. Prabhupāda: At least, he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha. Karandhara: But they don't have the same historical... I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha. Prabhupāda: No, no, buddha, actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your (sic:) Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the...? Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started... *Prabhupāda: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, knowledge. Budhā bhāva*-saman... [break] (French) Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in hermitage. Zen... Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Finish everything. Karandhara: Yes. Zen allows a man... According to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results. Prabhupāda: So that is our philosophy. We... Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. (French) Bhagavān: What is the use of practice, if you practice or you don't practice you still get the same result? Prabhupāda: No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice. Karandhara: What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes. Bhagavān: The problem is still death, though. Prabhupāda: No, practice without any aim... Karandhara: They say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service... Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim? Pṛthu Putra: When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen, his concept of Buddha, is this disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice. Prabhupāda: No, if he says that "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says zazen is in himself the satori, is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori, but the satori is going automatically with the practice. Prabhupāda: No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal. Prabhupāda: Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense? Goal is without goal. Then what is this? These are vague terms. Karandhara: It's like saying nothing is true, but then that's a truism. Prabhupāda: It is darkness. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They want to become minus. Prabhupāda: But he is plus always. (French) No, if you have no goal... There is example: "Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes... (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster. Karandhara: Well, they have an aim. But the aim is... Because they haven't... Prabhupāda: That you say they have got; he does not say. You say. Karandhara: No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception. Prabhupāda: So without aim, what is the use of practice? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Without goal, practicing something, it is foolishness. (French) Karandhara: No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say. Prabhupāda: No, he does not know what is that goal. No, he does not know what is that goal. *Karandhara: Well, he says the goal is to become goal*-less. *Prabhupāda: We give the goal... We give the goal, yajñārthe. Yajñārthe karma. We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajña*-puruṣa. We know the goal. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says, "Who is Viṣṇu?" Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is God. (French) Pṛthu Putra: And how we can satisfy God? Prabhupāda: That you have to learn from me. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says yes. *Prabhupāda: "Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Viṣṇu, Yajña, yajñārthe karmaṇaḥ anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma*-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9], then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is Viṣṇu. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life, the aim is Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf... The suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life. That's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside:) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation. He does not know where is the bead? On the... There is a bead. Just see. Karandhara: On the heater there's someone's beads. Prabhupāda: So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is? Bhagavān: It is mine. Prabhupāda: You are so forgetful? Bhagavān: No, I was looking for them. Prabhupāda: Why? Why did you...? Bhagavān: I left them on your bathroom door, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution, if you do not know what is the real goal. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal, he says, the real goal, the real things... Prabhupāda: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. We have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child. He does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind forward. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says who can understand that someone is blind or not blind? Yogeśvara: Who can judge. Prabhupāda: But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. (French) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority? Yogeśvara: How can we tell a real authority? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority? Prabhupāda: This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know... Therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead, so you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand. Karandhara: No, what he's saying is: what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper? Prabhupāda: So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. (French) The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim, that "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavān was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say, "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that I have no problem, "So let me act like him," when he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps. *Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material, that is no spiritual life. Find out this verse, yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha, sama*-duḥkha-sama... Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. Y-a-m, yam. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete... Prabhupāda: Ete, yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: 2.15. Prabhupāda: Saḥ amṛtatvāya kalpate. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda: Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up, that is the position of fixed up. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He's all right with this point. He agree with this point. Prabhupāda: He will agree with all the points provided he is fixed up. (French) Not, (sic:) after death, in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time. Prabhupāda: Not each time. Just like our devotees. They come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice. He becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, who is not agitated. Sama*-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham. What is that? Same verse. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ dhīram. "unaltered in distress or happiness." Prabhupāda: Is there any purport? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says so we then just have to practice now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be... (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says it's very simple. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that I am not this body. Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple. You are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt? You are a living force. (French) Pṛthu Putra: No, he has no doubt. Prabhupāda: Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual; I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress. Bhagavān: Then we can ask, "What is that great?" Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing! You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means he has more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. (French) Pṛthu Putra: He understands the point. *Prabhupāda: Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand. Just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and we are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says, "Nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot (pronounces pee*-lot, French pronunciation of "pilot") or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot. And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. So so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ. (laughs) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. His knowledge is lost. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." (French) Prabhupāda: So narādhama, means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation. Yogeśvara: Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing. Prabhupāda: But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? (French) Prabhupāda: But you are a fool. In your own way means foolish way. You do not know. (French) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way in this universe there is a greater spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness. Deshimaru: But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The point is that body and soul are two things. Deshimaru: I think it is same thing. Prabhupāda: You think, but how you can prove? Deshimaru: How you can prove that the body...? Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone... Yogeśvara: He's asking how can we prove our point? Prabhupāda: Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. (French) Yogeśvara: He says, "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead." Karandhara: No, but at the time of death the body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same, something is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body? Prabhupāda: How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? (French) Yogeśvara: He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells, scientific explanation. Prabhupāda: So why don't you... If you know that, then replace that cell. Karandhara: The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is. Deshimaru: They cannot know also what life is. Karandhara: They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body. Deshimaru: But the death is... You can change also what you say. Prabhupāda: How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? (French) Karandhara: I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. (French) Prabhupāda: No, he says that the living force and the body is the same. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? Why the body is no more moving? (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma. Prabhupāda: Is the karma. Pṛthu Putra: The karma. What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? (French) Pṛthu Putra: Because the nerves are just cut. Prabhupāda: No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness. His question is very intelligent. Deshimaru: Because the hand is cut. Prabhupāda: But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness? Karandhara: It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same. Prabhupāda: You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. (French) Devotee: And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death? Prabhupāda: No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, I can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead. Devotee: That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same then what is the cause of death. Prabhupāda: That he does not know, he cannot explain. Devotee: Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? (French) Prabhupāda: (aside:) Take it. Make arrangement within. (French) (end) Morning Walk -- June 14, 1974, Paris Prabhupāda: ...not for any spiritual advancement. Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say it's important for them... [break] ...to elevate themselves to higher types of yoga by first going through the gymnastics. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But gradually they will eat more meat and drink more wine. They, do they follow these principles: no intoxication, no meat, the so*-called yoga practitioners? Paramahaṁsa: Some, some do. Prabhupāda: So it is not compulsory. Bhagavān: One thing is, though, that people all over the world have great, great interest in India. They're looking for something in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. They should because the actual spiritual understanding is there in India. Yogeśvara: They all raise the same objection, however. When we try to tell them that bhakti is the highest form of yoga, they say, "Why are you so sectarian?" Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. Yogeśvara: "India is always tolerant for so many things." Prabhupāda: You are calling us sectarian because you do not know what is yoga. You tell them that. Do you know what is yoga? Yogeśvara: They'll say: "Well, even the *Gītā* describes so many..." *Prabhupāda: They have been cheated by some cheaters that this practice, gymnastic practice, is yoga. That's all. They do not know what is yoga. Yoga*-indriya-saṁyama. Even... All yoga systems, Patañjali's system. So indriya... Where is indriya-saṁyama? They are gratifying their senses to the fullest extent. And what is their yoga? That is described... You do not read the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you explain them that, that "You are yogi... You not yogi. You only making some farce. Where is your yogi? Are you going to a solitary place? Are you practicing alone, sitting on your seat like as they are described, and looking on the point of the nose? Are you doing that? You are not yogi. You are simply a caricature. You are not yogi." Don't accept them as yogis. If one is yogi... That, that, that gentleman, that yogi came there. He appreciated very much. Yogeśvara: Shraddhananda Giri. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He said that "Swamiji, you are doing the greatest work, that God's name you are distributing." He said like that. And when the record was going on, he was very rapt attention, he was very... So actual yogi means he'll be attracted by bhakti*-yoga. And these gymnasticians, what they'll understand about yoga? That is a process to control the mind. Those who are too much bodily concept of life, for them that exercise is required. But that is also not properly done. They must find out a very sacred place and practice yoga alone, not with group. Group is possible in bhakti-yoga, not this haṭha-yoga. That is not possible. The first attempt is condemned. Therefore all the yogis in India, actually those who are practicing yoga, they'll live outside human society. They never live in the city and get students to get them practice. And take thirty-five dollar fee. These are all bogus. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, sometimes these people, they use the argument in the Twelfth Chapter, I think it's the second or third verse, Kṛṣṇa says that those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are taking trouble. Those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are taking much trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: "But they also come to Me." So what does this "come to Me" mean? They use this to mean that the same result is there, whether you worship... *Prabhupāda: They come to Me after much trouble. That's all. So a foolish man will take much trouble. And intelligent man will take the short*-cut, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Much trouble means he's a foolish man. And this is also stated, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. It's clearly stated there that the Absolute Truth is impersonal, but when He comes here, He appears as a person. So this conclusion is for the abuddhayaḥ, less intelligent class of men, poor fund of knowledge. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ [Bg. 7.24]. Paramahaṁsa: It seems as if the more one strives to push the movement on, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the more māyā puts obstacles in the way. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: It seems, the more we strive to push the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement forward, the more māyā puts obstacles in the way to stop us. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but as soon as you become strong, naturally there will be more enemies. That is natural. Therefore last night I said, "If there is no understanding of God, where is religion?" This is not religion, the cheating. There cannot be any conception of religion without conception of God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat*-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the law given by God. So if you have no idea about God, where is your religion? Religion does not mean some formalities. No, that is not religion. Formalities we have also, but we have clear conception of God. Here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Devotee: Prabhupāda, what does it mean when we say, "Philosophy is for fools"? Prabhupāda: Philosophy for the fools? Who says? Another fool? I think this rascal Guruji says. Does he not? Yogeśvara: Yes, he says, "We have no philosophy. We just give the experience." Prabhupāda: You are all fools. You are all fools. Therefore you have no philosophy. You cannot understand philosophy. Yogeśvara: He says, "God is beyond philosophy and words." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That is how he brainwashes them. Paramahaṁsa: The impersonalists have agreed amongst themselves that "As many theories, as many ways to God." *Prabhupāda: But God says, "Although there are many ways, you give them up. You take to this only. Surrender unto Me." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Their many ways means there are many kinds of men. So in the śāstra sometimes the attempt is to bring every one of them to bhakti-yoga. Paramahaṁsa: But they argue that no matter, all ways, all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm? Paramahaṁsa: They argue that all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa. So why is one better than another? Prabhupāda: If you know that all paths leads to Kṛṣṇa, then why don't you take this path? Why you are going round about way? If somebody asks you, "Where is your nose?" What is the use of showing like this. (laughter) Show like this. If you know really nose. But you do not know. Therefore you are going like this. *Guru*-gaurāṅga: They say one man's food is another man's poison. So perhaps this process isn't practical for everyone. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you take the poison and die. Because you do not understand easily, better you take poison and die. Paramahaṁsa: What does it mean when they say that failure is the pillar of success? *Prabhupāda: Yes. For whom? Who is actually searching after success? Not for the fool. Anyone who is trying for attaining success, for him, failure is also success because he's making progress. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. God says, "Many ways." That's all right. But why does He says that "If you want to know Me perfectly, and without any doubt, then this is the process, bhakti"? Other processes are there but by those processes you cannot understand. Just like practically, call anyone, so*-called yogis, so-called jñānīs, they'll not understand Kṛṣṇa. They'll not understand Kṛṣṇa. So all other paths that are recommended, by those paths you cannot understand God perfectly and without any doubt. Therefore God says clearly, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ: [Bg. 18.55] "Actually, what I am, that can be understood by bhakti-yoga." Other systems, you'll... I explained that last night. That is partial understanding. That is not full understanding. *Yogeśvara: But they'll say that that's the conclusion of Bhagavad*-gītā, but we don't accept Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: Then go to hell. (laughter) Yogeśvara: But they say other parts of the *Vedas* recommend other ways. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. If you like, you take it. Otherwise, go to hell. Who cares for you? We have, we have started this institution, "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." So if you do not accept Bhagavad-gītā, then why did you come here? Why do you come here? You go away. We are not hankering after you. If you go to hell, go to go. Go to that. Who objects? Go. But if you come here, then you must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. If there is some signboard that "Indian sweets, rasagullā is available," why do you go there for asking meat? What is this meaning? We, we, our Society, it is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So why do you come here for if you don't believe in Kṛṣṇa? Go to hell. Don't come here. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then come here. That is the first principle. Therefore in New York somebody suggested that "Make this International Society of God Consciousness." That will be great havoc. They'll bring, rascals, so many gods. Make it clear, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you are interested in Kṛṣṇa, then come here. If you are interested in something else, you go there. Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people say, "I'm too dirty, too contaminated to come." Prabhupāda: "I'm too dirty"? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So cleanse yourself. Why don't you cleanse? Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The cleansing process is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and you'll be cleansed. Why do you stick to dirtiness? Be cleansed. If you agree that you are in dirtiness, then take the process of cleansing the dirt. Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people argue that they've been born a sinful person. I know you said once in an article that vice is not inherent in the living entity. Prabhupāda: Eh? Paramahaṁsa: That vice, or sinful activity is not something one is born with, that he acquires those qualities. But many people believe today that they are born, you know... *Prabhupāda: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? [break] ...Navadvīpa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? [break] That is accepted. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ (?). By birth, everyone is a śūdra. Śūdra means unclean. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice*-born, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Paramahaṁsa: Do people naturally act sinfully, or is that something that they develop? Prabhupāda: Hm? By association. If you mix with the drunkards, you'll learn how to drink. And if you mix with the devotees, similarly, you can become cleansed. By the association. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. One's desires develop according to the association. *Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad*-gītā, you state that sometimes they begin to take on these demonic qualities within the womb. These demonic qualities are inherited from the past life. So if we begin Kṛṣṇa conscious education very young, it's possible to stop these demonic qualities from developing? Prabhupāda: No. His demonic qualities will be purified. Otherwise, what is the use of preaching? If the qualities cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching? Bhagavān: No, I said if we begin education early, they can be... Prabhupāda: Yes, as early as possible. From the very womb, you begin education. Let the mother hear about Kṛṣṇa. He'll be purified from the womb. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja became. He was born by a demon father. But his quality changed when his mother was instructed by Nārada Muni, everything was changed. If the demons cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, sometimes they argue that Kṛṣṇa knows past, present and future. We are preaching that we have minute independence. We are preaching that Kṛṣṇa has given us minute independence to desire. So if Kṛṣṇa knows past, present and future, then where is the question of our independence? In other words, He knows already what we're going to desire? Prabhupāda: Past, present and future? Therefore there should be no independence? Is that a very good argument? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That is their argument. Bhagavān: They say if Kṛṣṇa knows already what you're going to do in the future, then what is the question of your independence? *Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't do it. Do it." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. He was going to do sinful activities. Kṛṣṇa advises him, "Don't do it." Kṛṣṇa changes. Therefore He comes. Because Kṛṣṇa knows that in the future, you'll, you'll do all sinful activities, therefore Kṛṣṇa comes to check you, "Don't do it." *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: All that karma is erased as soon as he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't do it. Do this." Because He knows your future, therefore He comes to request you, "You rascal, don't do this. Do this." That is His knowing feature. "If you don't this, then I know you'll do simply sinful activities. So therefore I come to save you. Don't do this. Do this." What is the wrong there? Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham: [Bg. 4.7] "When they misuse their independence, then I come to check them." Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... [break] *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...as tiny jīvātmās... *Prabhupāda: That is independence. That is independence. If you don't surrender... That you can do also. But if you surrender, you are saved. And if you do not surrender, if you want to go to hell, Kṛṣṇa does not check you, "All right, go to hell." Kṛṣṇa comes to save you. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: "I shall save you from all sinful reaction of life. You have done so many lives simple sinful activities. Now you stop it. You surrender to Me, and I give you assurance that I'll save you." This is Kṛṣṇa's mission. And if you think that you don't want to be saved, all right, you can go to hell, again. You become again the worms of stool. That's your choice. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: . So it's a very responsible position, to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Therefore those who do not do that, they have been described, mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. One who does not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, they're all rascals. That is our test. A man may be very nicely dressed, running fast in the motor car. Ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" "No, sir." "You are a rascal." That's all. Finish all business. We don't give any respect. We can give respect as a formality, but we can understand immediately, "Here is a rascal." That's all. Is that correct? Yes. To find out a rascal is very difficult job? Simply see that he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. He's a rascal. That's all. That they may say, "You are very sectarian." Just like a criminal, he's punished, and he may say to high*-court judge, "You are very sectarian. You are punishing me, and the other man, you awarded one million dollars. What is this?" Because he gave before a judgement that "This man must get this one million dollars," and next moment, he punishes one man, "Go to jail for six years." So the criminal may say, "Oh, you are so partial. You are giving, sending me to cell, and the other man, you are giving one million dollar. How is this?" But he does not know that he judging according to his work. Devotee: If a person's senses are restrained by following regulative principles, but if his mind dwells in sense objects, is he becoming purified, or is he just a pretender. Prabhupāda: Strained? Devotee: Restrained, controlled. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: If the senses are controlled, but his mind is contemplating sense objects, is he a pretender or is he becoming purified? Prabhupāda: No, no. By controlling the senses, gradually the mind will be controlled. You know. In the..., the tiger and the lion trained up to play in the circus, do you know how it is done? Dhanañjaya: They starve the animals. Prabhupāda: No. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: They feed them every time, whenever they do something. *Prabhupāda: No, after catching them from the forest, they kept within the bars, and no eating for at least one week. Then the trainer comes. Only whips. He comes, and open the doors and only: (makes sound) Flosh, flosh, flosh. So already he's hungry, weak, and he's whipped. In this way, he becomes fearful. As soon as the man comes, he becomes fearful. Then he gives him little food. In this way, after all it is animal, he thinks that "This man is my God. He can save me. He can kill me." Then he takes to him. Whatever he says, he takes. Similarly, if you do not give the ingredients for sense enjoyment, the mind will be controlled. That is the beginning. You simply... Don't give... The mind wants, "Now let me go to the restaurant." "No, sir." Beat him with shoes. Instead of going to the restaurant, he beats the mind with shoes. Then mind will not again say, "Go to the restaurant." That is called swami, gosvāmī. One who can control his mind, that is gosvāmī. We giving the title "Gosvāmī" But if you cannot control your mind, then you are unfit. Go means senses, and svāmī means master. One who can control the senses and master, he is gosvāmī. (pause) ...definition of gosvāmī there: vāco vegaṁ krodha*-vegaṁ manasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt [NoI 1]. You have to control the impulse of speaking, vāco vegam, the impulse of becoming angry, vāco vegam, krodha-vegam. Then manasa-vegam, force of the mind. Then udara-vegam, the belly. Belly, already, although it is filled up, and as soon as there is some nice... Please fill up again, again. This you have to control, udara-vegam. Udaropastha-vegam, genital. In this way, one who has controlled all these forces, he is able to make disciple all over the world. Otherwise, not this rascal guru. As soon as he saw one very beautiful secretary, "Oh, let me enjoy." And he's guru. So these are cheating. And people want to be cheated. Therefore the cheaters are there. [break] ...fourteen years old. A fourteen years old cannot be induced to marry a twenty-six years girl. That is unnatural. And by medical examination, it is found that he's at least thirty-two years. It is declared in the medical, and still, the rascals following him. That he's cheating by talking false things. So in one sense, the Western boys and young generation, they are actually hankering after some spiritual life. So any Indian, so-called sādhu and guru comes, they go there. But they are cheated unfortunately. So you make your society so strong that you be not cheated, and others may not cheat. Then it will be first-class. And if you make another society of cheaters and cheated, there is no profit. Therefore you have to follow the rules and regulations very strictly and become serious. Then you'll be ideal. People are in need of some spiritual energy. Therefore, as soon as some swamis or guru comes, they flock together to get some food. But these rascals are cheating. So you don't do that. Paramahaṁsa: It's also said that if you follow perfectly the rules and regulations, but don't develop love for Kṛṣṇa, then you have wasted your time. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but if you follow the rules and regulations, automatically, you'll love Kṛṣṇa. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. These are the stepping*-stones. The devotional service develops by association. So if the associates are pure devotees, anyone who will come to that association will become devotee. [break] ...just like a young man and young woman. The devotion is there, love is there, but in the beginning, they should mix, or some presentation should be given, some, something eatable should be accepted, should be given. In this way, when the association is thick and thin, the love is there. The love is already there. It has to awakened by a certain process. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati ca ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam. These are six types of loving principles, that you give, if you want to love somebody, you give something. And whatever he or she offers, you take from him. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti. You give him something to eat, and whatever he or she gives, you eat. Bhuṅkte bhojayate ca. And guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. And you try to understand his heart, and your heart be disclosed to him or her. If you follow these principles, automatically the loving propensity will awaken. It is already there. It is not artificial. It has simply to be awakened by a certain process. So that process we are prescribing, to rise early in the morning, have maṅgala-ārātrika, worship Deity, offer food stuff, eat prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who will follow this principle, he will become purified. There is no need of education, because the devotion is already there. By following these rules and regulations, it will be awakened. As, as, as in this straw, there is fire. Now, you ignite it, and just fan it, and the fire will come. It is already there, fire. But you know, you must know the process how to ignite fire. Huge fire will come. You can burn the whole garden from this straw. Is it not? So you must know the process, how to ignite fire. Fire is already there, in these trees, in these straws, in this grass. Fire is already there. That, that is the process. First of all, you must know that fire is already there. Now ignite. Then it comes more. Then burning, blazing. So the blazing fire is required. But that will come gradually. If you follow the process. That is described by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the Śikṣāṣṭakam, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The first step will be cleansing of the heart. And in the heart there is God, already. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. The Lord is situated in everyone's heart. So actually yoga system is to find out the Lord within the heart. That is meditation. Lord is there already: simply we have to find it out. That, that if, if you are informed that within this park there is one hundred weight of gold is lying there. Now you have to find out. But the indication is there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. The Lord, the Supreme Lord, is situated in everyone's heart. Now find him out. That is yoga system. So these people, without finding out the Lord by practicing... (end) Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris Bhagavān: This book is being published in twelve volumes. Professor La Combe: Yes. (indistinct) Bhagavān: Yale University. I think you are familiar with Yale University in the United States. They have already placed advanced order for all these volumes. (French) *Prabhupāda: We are translating the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and other Vedic literature. You have seen the sample, original verse, word to word meaning, then translation, then giving a purport. Professor La Combe: You wrote the commentary. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor La Combe: What is the paramparā from Caitanya? Prabhupāda: From Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yes. The Six Gosvāmīs: Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. The Six Gosvāmīs. Then from the Gosvāmīs there is Śrīnivāsācārya. Then from him, I think, this Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Then Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, then Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, then Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, then my Guru Mahārāja. Next we are. I am the tenth or eleventh, eleventh from Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor La Combe: And you have come to a round visit to the west now? Prabhupāda: I have come several times. Professor La Combe: Yes, but this time. Prabhupāda: This time, yes, just to see my centers. I have got many... Professor La Combe: This is your Paris establishment? Prabhupāda: Yes, Paris establishment, yes. Professor La Combe: Formerly you were in the south of..., in the banlieu (suburbs). Jyotirmayī: Yes, before. *French Devotee: At Fontenay*-aux-Rose. Jyotirmayī: One year ago we came here in Paris. Professor La Combe: It's more noisy and..., but its more easy and more convenient. When was this Paris center started? Jyotirmayī: It started four years ago. Professor La Combe: And this is your first visit to this center? Prabhupāda: No, this is the fourth visit. Professor La Combe: Fourth visit, every year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Last year also, I came. I installed the Deity. Professor La Combe: You now come right from Vṛndāvana or...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I am coming from Vṛndāvana of course, via Delhi. Then Rome, then Geneva, then Paris. Then I shall go to Frankfurt. And from there I shall go to Sydney, Australia. Professor La Combe: Oh, this is not the direct way. *Bhagavān: We have a Ratha*-yātrā Festival. You have heard of this festival, from Jagannātha Purī. Professor La Combe: Yes, of course. I have been there. Bhagavān: We have this festival in very big, in the same scale, in Australia, London, San Francisco, Chicago. Prabhupāda: Where is that poster? Australia? Yes. Bhagavān: And in all these cities we are joined... In San Francisco there are ten thousand people who come at least every year to help pull the carts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: In Chicago also. Philadelphia. There will be Ratha*-yātrā. this is the... *Satsvarūpa: This is for Melbourne, Australia, Ratha*-yātrā parade, (shows a poster), picture of the parade last year. Professor La Combe: Last year. Prabhupāda: No, this year they are advertising. Professor La Combe: Which is to come. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Satsvarūpa: This is a poster that Haṁsadūta sent for Frankfurt for next week. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is German language. Professor La Combe: And all is in the vicinity of Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu predicted. You understand little Bengali? Do you understand... Professor La Combe: Bengali not... Sanskrit, but not... Prabhupāda: The Bengali words, Professor La Combe: Cities and villages. Prabhupāda: Cities, yes, villages; sarvatra..., Professor La Combe: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: "everywhere;" pracāra, "propaganda" or "publicity," pracāra; haibe, "there will be;" mora nāma, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name. So now it is being so. All over the world we have got branches, and they know Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. So that is being now propagated. Professor La Combe: I understand. Prabhupāda: So He predicted and by His great will it is being propagated. Professor La Combe: How many officials (?) are there? *Prabhupāda: We have got about hundred branches, and each branch, there are not less than twenty-five up to 250. So average, if you take one hundred, then it is ten thousand, yes. And all of them are young, within thirty, within thirty. So... And they are trying to understand the philosophy very nicely, even these girls. She knows. In India, even the big, big learned scholars, they are-Indian scholar, I mean*-they were surprised when some of my students, the young students, girls and boys, were speaking in Navadvīpa. Professor La Combe: You have all been to India? Bhagavān: Not all. Some of us. Professor La Combe: Not all. Some of you. Bhagavān: We have a very big center in Māyāpura. Prabhupāda: Navadvīpa, the birthplace of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Professor La Combe: I have been in Navadvīpa. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor La Combe: Long ago in 1936. Prabhupāda: 1936. Did you see my Guru Mahārāja? Professor La Combe: No. Prabhupāda: No. He passed away in 1936 in December, in December. Professor La Combe: No, I have not seen him. Probably he was already ill or... He was ill. Prabhupāda: Bhaktisiddhānta Saras... That is the photograph of my guru. His Guru Mahārāja and his Guru Mahārāja... Professor La Combe: And so on. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is paramparā. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this. Professor La Combe: And how do you...? It was one of your pupils who spoke about Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Rāmānuja. He belongs to the Śrī*-sampradāya. Professor La Combe: Yes. But there is a connection. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, they are connected. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. So we belong to Madhvācārya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu belonged to Madhvācārya. Madhvācārya was direct disciple of Vyāsadeva, and by paramparā, Mādhavendra Purī. Then from Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted Īśvara Purī as His spiritual master. So we belong to this Madhvācārya*-sampradāya, Madhvācārya-sampradāya or Brahma-sampradāya. The sampradāya, the disciplic succession, is coming from Lord Brahmā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada. Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva. And Vyāsadeva's disciple is Madhvācārya. And from Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then we are, Caitan..., like that. *Professor La Combe: One of you mentioned, because I had made a translation of the beginning of the Śrī*-bhāṣya, Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Śrī*-bhāṣya, Bhagavad-gītā? *Professor La Combe: No. The Śrī*-bhāṣya, the Brahma-sūtra bhāṣya. Unfortunately, it is out of print. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor La Combe: So one of you, I think... Devotee: (indistinct) Professor La Combe: You can read it in the library, but unfortunately, it is out of print. Yes. It is a complete translation of the first part you see. 850 pages with the text and notes. Prabhupāda: Oh. I see. Just like we do text and transliteration? Professor La Combe: The text is in nāgarī. Bhagavān: There are synonyms in your translation? Do you give the synonym for the word? Prabhupāda: Equivalent. Satsvarūpa: His style here. Prabhupāda gives the Bengali... Professor La Combe: Transliteration? No, no, there is no transliteration. Satsvarūpa: Translation, purport or notes. Professor La Combe: No, there is only translation and notes. But some of the synonyms are in the notes. And the purport also comes in in the notes when necessary. Bhagavān: You are teaching a course now? Professor La Combe: I finished. The year is finished. Bhagavān: Yes. You were teaching a course? Professor La Combe: Not on this... Bhagavān: What was the name of that course? Jyotirmayī: He was teaching the Tenth Canto. Professor La Combe: Comparative philosophy, the Indian branch. *Jyotirmayī: But this year you were teaching the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Professor La Combe: Yes. That was one of them actually, with other courses. But I am retiring, finished, you see. I retire to come... *Prabhupāda: So comparative philosophy, Māyāvāda, that Advaita*-vāda, Dvaita-vāda, Viśiṣṭādvaita. Which of them you like? Or you remain simply student? You remain neutral or you like some philosophy? Professor La Combe: I try to be objective, but not neutral. I have more personal affinity with Śaṅkara, er, with Rāmānuja than with Śaṅkara. Prabhupāda: No, Rāmānuja... Bhagavān: Personal attraction. Professor La Combe: Yes. Although, of course, I try... I have written another book on Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja compared, you see. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor La Combe: The notions of Brahman and ātman both in Śaṅkara and Rāmānuja. That one is not of out of print. It is called in French L'Absolute selons les Vedānta. *Prabhupāda: But Śaṅkarācārya has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ devakī*-putraḥ. He has written like that in his comment on Bhagavad-gītā. *Professor La Combe: Bhagavad*-gītā, yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So... And all the ācāryas, Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So practically, amongst the authorities, Indian ācāryas, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rāmānujācārya has written his bhāṣya on Bhagavad*-gītā. Professor La Combe: I read it. And Śaṅkara's also, both. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has not written. Śaṅkara has written. Śarīraka*-bhāṣya, Vedānta-sūtra. He has written comment on Bhagavad-gītā. Professor La Combe: Yes, and Rāmānuja. *Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya also. Also Śrīdhara Svāmī. Śrīdhara Svāmī he has written. He belongs to Viṣṇu Svāmī*-sampradāya. And our Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, he has written comments. And Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Professor La Combe: Oh yes, there is long list of commentaries on the *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are ten ṭīkās. Professor La Combe: This is published? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor La Combe: Where is it printed? Bhagavān: It is printed in Japan. And we have our publishing house in New York. *Professor La Combe: This is the second volume of the first..., Ādi*-līlā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ādi*-līlā, yes. Bhagavān: You are familiar with Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy? Professor La Combe: Yes. You see, I started Sanskrit and Indian studies in 1929 when we were abroad. Prabhupāda: You have been in India several times. Professor La Combe: Many times, yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay generally? Professor La Combe: In several places, but mainly in Calcutta. But in many other places too. Prabhupāda: Calcutta where? Professor La Combe: Park Mansions, Park St., near Asiatic Society. Prabhupāda: Park St. Asiatic Society. Yes, I know that. It is just on the junction of Park St. and Chowringhee. Calcutta is my birthplace. Professor La Combe: You were born in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Yes. All our former relatives, they are in Calcutta. Professor La Combe: Even now. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor La Combe: I think the situation is better now in Calcutta, improving. Prabhupāda: Yes, little better. Professor La Combe: Because my last visit there was in 1970 and it was the worst moment. But I hear that it is improving. Prabhupāda: Improving, yes. Just near that Asiatic Society we held our Hare Kṛṣṇa Festival in front of, I think, the museum. Professor La Combe: Yes, on Chowringhee. Prabhupāda: Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling. Professor La Combe: This year? Prabhupāda: No. (break in tape) ...God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow and that is the position now. Professor La Combe: But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year I suppose. Prabhupāda: No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69 there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. You were at that time there? No. Devotee: No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites... Prabhupāda: Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation. Devotee: Especially any rich man or politician. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor La Combe: The Vice Chancellor of Jadavpur University was killed the day before I arrived in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Old gentleman? Professor La Combe: Yes. And he was retiring. He was still in activity, but he was soon retiring, and he was walking from the University campus to his home, not far, a short walk. And he was killed by one of these... Prabhupāda: Naxalites. Professor La Combe: Naxalites or somebody of the same kind. I don't know exactly. And he was not a politician at all. He had no political activities. Devotee: Still, nowadays, they are having strikes every day, big marches, processions. Professor La Combe: Oh, strikes, perhaps, yes, but no killings. Devotee: And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be. Professor La Combe: Now it is better. Prabhupāda: Actually, there was no government. Professor La Combe: At that time, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor La Combe: They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable, respectable or nonrespect..., no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India. Professor La Combe: Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana? Professor La Combe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where did you stay? Professor La Combe: I did not stay. I just visited, went around. Prabhupāda: I see. Professor La Combe: And it was long ago. *Prabhupāda: There is a place, Ramaṇa*-reti. Did you see that Oriental philosophical institution? Professor La Combe: It was not yet started at that time. Prabhupāda: No, it was there. 1970. No, when you went to Vṛndāvana? Professor La Combe: '36 or '37. Prabhupāda: '36? Oh, yes. Professor La Combe: It was not started. *Prabhupāda: : Yes. Ramaṇa*-reti, there is a road from Vṛndāvana to, connecting with the road from Delhi to Agra. That road is called Chattikara, Chattikara Road. So on that road we have got our temple. It is locally known as Ramaṇa-reti. Professor La Combe: After Mathurā. Prabhupāda: After Mathurā. It is Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana. There is a shortcut. Formerly... The road is very old road, from Delhi to Vṛndāvana, taking a turn at the place known as Chattikara. So on that road we are constructing our temple. Professor La Combe: Constructing now? Prabhupāda: No, it is finished. Professor La Combe: It is ancient? But you are... Bhagavān: Do you have the photographs? Yogeśvara: Some slides somewhere. Professor La Combe: But that is an old shrine. It is not a new establishment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, formerly I was staying. I have got my place there also, one of the oldest temples, Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple. Rādhā-Dāmodara. This temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. There are seven important temples: Govindajī's temple, Madana-Mohana, Rādhā-Dāmodara, Rādhā-Ramaṇa, and Rādhā-Śyāmasundara. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Giridhārī. Prabhupāda: Not Giridhārī. That is later. *Devotee: Rādhā*-Gopīnātha. *Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha, yes. So Gopīnātha temple, Madana-Mohana temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, Śyāmasundara and Gokulānanda, Gokulānanda. These are old seven temples. Later on, other big, big temples. Raṅganātha temple and Gaekwad (?) temple, like that, Jaipur temple. They came into existence. But there are five thousand temples in Vṛndāvana's city, municipal area. Practically each house is a temple. In every house there is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Deity and being worshiped by some devotees. The Ārya-samājī movement... You know something about Ārya-samāja? Professor La Combe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody... Professor La Combe: Even now, nowadays, now they are... *Prabhupāda: No, their influence is gone, Ārya*-samāja. *Professor La Combe: No, I mean the Ārya*-samāja is no more very active now. Prabhupāda: They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. Professor La Combe: How long will you stay in Paris? Prabhupāda: I am going on Sunday morning. Professor La Combe: To Frankfurt. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor La Combe: And then you stay a little longer. Prabhupāda: I will stay there one week and then, on the 23rd... Yogeśvara: 26th. Prabhupāda: No, 23rd. Satsvarūpa: June 23rd we fly to Sydney. We stop in Bombay one day. Professor La Combe: It will be very hot now in Bombay. Prabhupāda: Now it might be raining. Professor La Combe: Yes, it might be raining. Prabhupāda: Because from 10th June monsoon begins. Bombay is not too hot as Vṛndāvana, as Vṛndāvana. Professor La Combe: On account of the seashore. Prabhupāda: Ah. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Vṛndāvana is very hot. Bhagavān: If you go back to India, you can..., you are welcome to stay in our temples. Professor La Combe: In Vṛndāvana. Bhagavān: In Vṛndāvana. We have Māyāpura, near Navadvīpa. And we also purchased some very nice land outside of Bombay. Juhu. Hyderabad and Calcutta. Devotee: In Delhi also, we have a nice center. Professor La Combe: What part of India? Devotee: It's in West End. It is very close to the airport. Professor La Combe: And in Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Near Park St., Camac St. Professor La Combe: Camac St. I know. Devotee: Very nice, old... It was called the Ray Castle. It used to be occupied by some governors. (Someone gives the professor some prasādam.) Professor La Combe: Thank you very much. Just a little. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, during that time of the Naxalites you had mentioned that after that program, you said due to the effects of our program, it stopped all that Naxalite movement. Because very shortly after we had that pandal in the Maidan, the whole Naxalite movement was finished. You said due to that, because we purified the atmosphere. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Devotee: ...with chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. The government could do nothing. The police were helpless. Professor La Combe: And the festival in Sydney will take a long time? Yogeśvara: Sydney festival is for how many days? Prabhupāda: On the 29th. *Yogeśvara: One day, 29th of June. Ratha*-yātrā festival like in Jagannātha Purī. Professor La Combe: Today it is better here, little warmer. (indistinct) unusually cool for this time. Yogeśvara: How are you feeling? When we went to visit you in your office, it wasn't sure whether you could come because you were not feeling very well. Professor La Combe: I am not very well. Prabhupāda: What is your age? Professor La Combe: I got cold. Prabhupāda: No, age. Professor La Combe: Oh, I shall be seventy after three weeks. *Prabhupāda: Oh. I am also seventy*-eight. But your health is better than me. You have got your natural teeth? Professor La Combe: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, then very good. (laughter) Professor La Combe: This is a nice... Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is nice. Professor La Combe: Nice view. Not too noisy. I wonder how. Because you are on the small street. Bhagavān: Tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda is giving conference at Salle Pleyal. Professor La Combe: Yes, I know. Tonight. I have seen. This? Prabhupāda: This is a picture. I do not know wherefrom they have collected. (laughter) Bhagavān: It is from Yogeśvara. Prabhupāda: It is supposed that the gopīs are looking to the picture of Kṛṣṇa, is it not? Professor La Combe: Yes. Very likely. Prabhupāda: But this picture also appears to be searching out Aniruddha. Yogeśvara: Uṣā. Prabhupāda: Uṣā, yes. Yogeśvara: Yes, that's right. She showed her a picture. Because she had never seen Aniruddha. Prabhupāda: She saw only in dream. So her friend Citralekhā showed. She showed that "Find out whom you dreamed." Then she pointed out. Professor La Combe: I remember that. Prabhupāda: Yes, in the Bhāgavata. Professor La Combe: I could not recognize from this... *Prabhupāda: So immediately she brought from Dvārakā*-dhāma palace direct to the palace of Uṣā. What is called, the asura, what is his name? Yogeśvara: Bhaumāsura. Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura, Bāṇāsura, Bāṇāsura. The picture, where is that picture, find out. Bāṇāsura. Bāṇāsura was appreciating, "Oh, very nice couple." But he had to challenge, "Why you have entered my palace and talking with my unmarried girl?" Bhagavān: Yes. This is the *Kṛṣṇa Book* that Śrīla Prabhupāda has written. It is a summary of the Tenth Canto. And all these paintings, these are done by our artists in New York. Professor La Combe: I'm afraid I should go now. Jyotirmayī: Yes. Monsieur La Combe has a course. Professor La Combe: Not a course, but a meeting. And as the traffic is rather thick now, it is better not to take a chance. I should not be late. Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you very much. Professor La Combe: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Jaya Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Yogeśvara: ...on a book. It is accepted as being authentic. All the universities use his texts. And he has a big office in the Sorbonne. The Sorbonne is the most famous French University. Prabhupāda: He is a big man. Bhagavān: Actually, it's not famous. It's infamous. Prabhupāda: No, why infamous. They are famous. Why do you say infamous? Bhagavān: Well, I thought fame is to be referred to for devotee. Prabhupāda: That is your sentiment, but practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous. Devotee: I just saw... Maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent." Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā? Devotee: They said he was found innocent. Prabhupāda: In the court? Devotee: Yes. Because, you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught... Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By court? Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign making secret tape recordings against the other party. Prabhupāda: He did? And still he is innocent? Devotee: Yes. He paid so many millions, thousands and thousands of dollars. His party, the republican party, they put microphones and everything in the convention of the democrats and had spies and everything in order that he could find out their tricks. He had paid all these men and there were all fired. Prabhupāda: So that is not bad because in politics you have to do that. Everyone does so. What is Nixon's fault? Devotee: But only he got caught. And all of his men quit. Prabhupāda: No, no, suppose you are my rival. So I wanted to know your secrecies. So I make some mechanical arrangement. That is not fault. That is not... Everyone does so. Why do you expect that he will not do that? He must do that. If you are my rival or enemy, to know your secrecy, I must endeavor to do everything. As you are doing, so I am. Devotee: They were bribing men. They had paid them money and everything to do these things. Prabhupāda: Yes. So bribing men, everywhere it is going on. Devotee: According to the American government it is illegal to... Each person has his own plans. And it is illegal to find out the other's. But now they said he is innocent. Prabhupāda: Court says. Devotee: The United States government. They had a big trial and everything. So they found tapes and everything, but there was some missing tapes. They could not directly pin him for the whole thing. He said, "I didn't know anything about it." He says, "My men were just doing it. I never told them to do it. They did it on their own, for me. They liked me so much, they were just doing it. I never paid them." Yogeśvara: Isn't the kṣatriya qualities that he is to be trustworthy? Prabhupāda: No. When there is political game, everyone does everything to gain his victory. In politics, these things are allowed. Just like killing, fighting, kṣatriya's fighting. That killing is allowed. But killing is not allowed generally. Kṛṣṇa has killed so many. If you take from moral point of view, He's sometimes immoral. He has killed His maternal uncle, Kaṁsa, and Śiśupāla, Śiśupāla, his cousin brother. And Balarāma killed Rukma. Once He saved him, and another time, that Aniruddha's marriage, or something like that... Balarāma killed Rukma, the brother of Rukmiṇī. They were family relatives. But there was some misunderstanding in chess playing that other party, Rukma, he was cheating by tricks. The Balarāma became so angry, they killed him. So in politics amongst the kṣatriyas, these things are not uncommon. Devotee: But isn't that not good because the politicians nowadays, when they are running their campaign, they say so many lies and everything to the public, that "When I am elected I will do this and I will do that," and they do so many... They pay off so many people in order that they can become elected. So always the good persons are... I guess they also have to cheat in order to get in position, but usually the... Prabhupāda: Therefore we have stopped our political activities. It is not good. It will be hampering to our spiritual understanding. Devotee: Because we will also have to do that. Prabhupāda: If you want to dance, you cannot be shy. There is a Bengali proverb, nate vase guṇṭhana tana (?). You understand Bengali? No. That, "When you are going to dance... A girl, or a lady is supposed to dance in the platform, in the stage, and when she came, she saw thousands of people. Then she drew her veil, what is called, guṇṭhana, became little ashamed. So you are going to dance. What is the use of veiling yourself?" So similarly, when one takes part in politics, if you don't take all the tactics of politics, then you cannot gain ground. Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying, "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals... Just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying "How can these people be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life." Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that they cannot be leader, then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something, saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it. Devotee: Therefore we must cheat. Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously because I know, "I am also thief." Means these appeal, that does not appeal because "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that "He is thief, he cannot be trusted," then he knows that "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Care care mastado bhāi (?). This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that "We all are thieves, all cousin brothers; so why this man should be only accused?" *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves. Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand. Because he is also vicious. Devotee: Therefore just like Kṛṣṇa during the battle of Kurukṣetra, he told Arjuna to do so many things. He told Yudhiṣṭhira to lie. When he said, "Aśvatthāmā has been killed," he said Aśvatthāmā, the elephant, he said the elephant... Prabhupāda: Yes, that was a tactics. So... Devotee: And also when Karṇa... Arjuna killed Karṇa when he was off his chariot. Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character that people can see that "Here is an ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics... They are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, they people. So when you point out that "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks." "Oh, he will also go to hell." "My mother also drinks." "Oh, she will also go to hell." In this way, all the family members, they scrutinizingly studying, that all of them were drunkards. You see? Then the man who was accused of drinking, he said, "If everyone is going to hell, then hell is heaven. (laughter) Because my father is going there, mother is going there, my brother is going there, I shall go there. It is heaven. Where is hell?" Devotee: Heaven is where all my friends are. Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty? Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming... The same thing: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest now." Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want. Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places. He could not find out. First of all he gave him four places, that "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles, that "What is wrong there?" Devotee: It is just the opposite now. Now there is no place where Mahārāja Parīkṣit can go to find out a spiritual atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma, Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life. Illicit sex, intoxication... He was first*-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left. Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said, "Swamiji will not be successful because he does not allow free love in his movement." He says, "That is why I had to leave because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University. Prabhupāda: That Neil. Devotee: Yeah, Neil. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: And he told me that "Swamiji will not be successful in his movement because he will not allow free love." I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple. Prabhupāda: No, he cannot give up these bad habits. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do. Prabhupāda: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man to man marriage. Most unnatural. Devotee: Previously they didn't allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church. So then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man to man marriage. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers. Bhagavān: It's a matter of money. Prabhupāda: And that is freedom. So Rāya Rāmānanda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the church? (laughs) Bhārgava: There was one survey done by a college, a university, Michigan State, and Rūpānuga Mahārāja researched it and said 94% of the people in America, they believe there is a God, but only 35% will go to church. They are not very much interested in the churches anymore. They don't trust them. But 94% believe there is God. Prabhupāda: Because the church could not help them in understanding God. The Christian church has no idea what is God. Therefore there is no name of God. Actually, they have no idea about God. Is there? Devotee: I was raised up a very strict Catholic, going through Catholic school till I was fifteen years old, but I could not... They were trying to teach love of God, but I could not see that they were also loving God. Even the head priest, he was found having illicit sex relationships with one of the young nuns, and she became pregnant by that and he had to leave. They quietly sent him away without anybody knowing, but later on it came out. Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere. Devotee: And I saw, "What is the point? They are not even loving God." They were teaching loving God, but I could not see it. Prabhupāda: He said that Vivekananda was doing that. You said? Just tell him. Nitāi: That once I met a little old lady on the streets of Denver when I was distributing books. Prabhupāda: Old lady. Nitāi: Very old. She was walking down the street. She was all bent over. And she asked me what I was doing, and I showed her our magazine and explained that we were teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and she said, "Oh, is this yoga? I remember way back when Vivekananda came here. Have you ever heard of him?" So we began talking about Vivekananda. She said that she was there when he made his tour. She was in Denver when he made his tour of the United States, and that he stopped there for one week and lectured. And she went there to see that meeting, but she said that all in all she was disgusted with him because he was so much attracted to the women. She said that he was victimized by the women. They were all trying to get him, and she said so when he went back to India he was a broken man. Prabhupāda: Yes, he took with him three women. One of them was Sister Nivedita. Devotee: Also you told us in India about Aurobindo and Ramakrishna. Aurobindo went also. Aurobindo, when that French woman came, he also fell to her, but just to cover it up he has called her "Mother" because in India, when you call someone "Mother..." Prabhupāda: No, everyone knows he is mother and he is father. Devotee: Yeah, right. And they don't think... There is no question of sex. When they think of mother and father, they don't think of these things. Also with Ramakrishna. He also had his divine mother. You told us a story in Calcutta that he was very debauched. In a village he used to chase the young women. And his brother actually made him famous. Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to, not to be victimized by woman. It is very difficult. Yogeśvara: Unless you are victimized by Kṛṣṇa first. Prabhupāda: Yes. One who is, I means, what is called, captivated by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa, then he is not victimized. Yogeśvara: You didn't find it necessary to enter into any kind of discussion with this French Professor just now. There was no real discussion of philosophy. I was wondering why that didn't happen. Prabhupāda: He did not raise any question. And he is simply translator. He has no philosophy. I asked him "Which philosophy you are...?" "So I make comparative study." I think he did not like to enter into philosophical... Is it not? Devotee: Most of these gentlemen who come here, when they see you and begin talking with you, like you said, they show their ignorance when they begin to speak. So they prefer not to speak. They always make some excuse that they have an appointment because they know that if they speak, they will be in real trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate (?): "A foolish man is very nice as long as he does not speak. As soon as he will speak, his foolishness will be captured." So therefore, sometimes they do not like to talk. Remain as a nice man, (laughs) without being discovered. Devotee: I think maybe the first gentleman who was here, who said... He was talking about experiencing God... He says, "Actually I experienced God, but actually God is beyond my experience." You gave him such a hard time that I think he must have made phone calls to all these other men, "Be careful of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He is very dangerous." (laughter) Prabhupāda: I told him that you have no experience. Devotee: He turned so red when you said, "But how were you saying you are having experience, and you just said God is beyond your experience." And then he says, "I never said that. You put those words into my mouth." I whispered in his ear, "We have it on tape. We will play it back for you." (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Oh. We have got Kṛṣṇa. We are not afraid in challenging anyone. I believe on that formula. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. I believe that verse very strongly, that anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he must be within this list: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ. That's all. I have explained that verse little elaborately. Read it. It is very interesting. Where is Satsvarūpa? Bhagavān: He is in the other room. Would you like him to come in? Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Everyone comes, they say, "Why people are suffering?" They are concerned with the people suffering. Actually not. That is a plea only, as if he has taken the task of minimizing the suffering of humanity. He poses himself as very philanthropist. Actually, he cannot do anything. Nitāi: "Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic planmakers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina, or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic planmaker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic planmaker is called duṣkṛtina, which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the *Gītā* it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction..." *Prabhupāda: Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything*-they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their... He have come. People come to see Paris just for that... What is that theater? Bhagavān: Folies Bergere. Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act... Nobody goes to... Beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful, that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina. Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on. Just like we are trying to do. Take prasādam, worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches, but there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina. They have got merit, to construct very nice wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then. *Nitāi: (reading) "In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object, but still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas or miscreants are of four different patterns as outlined below. Number one. The mūḍhas: those who are grossly foolish like hard working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma, action, is meant for yajña, sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self*-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas, material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, not do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources." Prabhupāda: Generally, we see now, especially in the western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany? Devotee: Amsterdam is the same way. Prabhupāda: Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes. Devotee: It is the center. *Prabhupāda: This is very prominent in the western country, which we are asking, that no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable. Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. All right, keep it. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even... Prabhupāda: That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised. Yogeśvara: We don't have a very good reputation in India? Prabhupāda: Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava. Devotee: No, he means the western people themselves. Prabhupāda: "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that. Devotee: They think that... They won't allow even a westerner to marry their daughter, because the westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry the brahmacārīs, the American brahmacārīs, but the parents would not allow because they said, "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the westerners, that they, the life is so fast. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Another brahmacārī saved. Prabhupāda: One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy? Devotee: There's that boy in Bombay he married one Indian girl. Prabhupāda: He is staying. *Devotee: Jagat*-puruṣa. Prabhupāda: He has not left as yet. But he can leave any moment. (laughs) No. He is not American. He is devotee. Therefore he is reliable. (pause) Bhagavān: We have to arrange a few things. Prabhupāda: What is the next program? Is there any program? Yogeśvara: A big hall meeting. Prabhupāda: Today. Bhagavān: Tonight. Prabhupāda: What time? Bhagavān: 8 o'clock. You will be speaking around 8:30. Prabhupāda: All right. (end) *Room Conversation with Mr. Tran*-van-Kha, and President & Members of the Society of Buddhists in France -- June 15, 1974, Paris *Yogeśvara: This gentleman is Mr. Tran*-Van-Kha, the president of... Pṛthu Putra: Mrs. Basti (sp?), she is the president of the Society of Buddhists in France. And,... Guest (1): Thomas Dhu (?). Prabhupāda: Sit down. *Pṛthu Putra: He's the president, (indistinct) honor of honors. Mr. Tran*-Van-Kha was ambassador from Vietnam... Prabhupāda: Vietnam. Pṛthu Putra: ...in America twenty years ago, and he's now president of the society of Buddhists in France. Prabhupāda: If... Vietnam (indistinct)? No? Yogeśvara: Vietnam what? Well, they say. Prabhupāda: So Vietnam, they profess Buddhist religion? Pṛthu Putra: (translates into French) Guest (1): (French) Pṛthu Putra: Eighty per cent. Prabhupāda: So the Buddhist religion so far we know, they are nonviolent. Pṛthu Putra: (French) Guest (1): (French) Pṛthu Putra: This gentleman added tolerance. Prabhupāda: Tolerance. If one is nonviolent, he must learn tolerance. Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Prabhupāda: We pray Lord Buddha: Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. "My Lord, You, for the time being, You are decrying the Vedic authority." Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Prabhupāda: Nindasi yajña*-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic rituals. Śruti means Vedas. It is learned by hearing. Why He decried the Vedic rituals? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. You are so much compassionate by seeing animals sacrificed. Animal Killing. Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. Ghātam means killing, so He wanted to stop this animal killing, sinful life. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. My Lord, You have appeared now as Lord Buddha, I offer my respectful obeisances unto you. Pṛthu Putra: (French) Prabhupāda: Our... I think picture is there. Lord Buddha's picture. *Yogeśvara: In the Bhagavad*-gītā? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Not Bhagavad*-gītā. *Yogeśvara: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. *Prabhupāda: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, back side, the daśāvatāra. (indistinct) Pṛthu Putra: (Explains in French the picture in Second Canto) *Prabhupāda: He was Hindu in the beginning. Come on. He was Prince, then He become renounced and He was known as Lord Buddha. So Lord Buddha also started His system for stopping animal killing. Lord Jesus also said, "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately the animal killing is not stopped. We are therefore teaching our followers: no meat*-eating, so that if people stop meat-eating, automatically animal killing will be stopped. According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex, another meat-eating, another intoxication, and another gambling. So at least the brāhmaṇas, the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society they must be sinless. Then the human society will make nice progress. In the Bhagavad gītā it is stated: yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas. Pṛthu Putra: (French) Prabhupāda: Ācarati. Pṛthu Putra: (French) Yogeśvara: What is second line? Prabhupāda: Sa yat pramāṇam kurute. In the 'yad' you did not find? *Yogeśvara: Y*-a-d? *Prabhupāda: Yes, y*-a-d. Yad yad. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas. Prabhupāda: Mmm. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Pṛthu Putra: (French) (pause) Yogeśvara: When we were at your meeting a few weeks ago, there was, we felt very encouraged because there was very nice interest in how it was that these young western boys and girls had been able to take to this form of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (French) Lady (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Last night, at the conference hall, this lady heard your lecture about how the soul reincarnates in different kinds of bodies. So she wants to know how is this possible because in the West, our understanding is that the animal forms do not possess a soul. Prabhupāda: How does..., she can prove that she does not, it does not possess a soul. Pṛthu Putra: She just doesn't understand. She does not say that. She does not understand. Prabhupāda: No. She admits man has got soul, and animal has not soul. Yogeśvara: See, what she says this is the traditional western idea. Prabhupāda: But that idea is wrong. Yogeśvara: (French) Lady (1): (French) Yogeśvara: She was open to receive a more detailed explanation of the process. Prabhupāda: First of all, let us see what are the symptoms of having soul. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: See, you can come here. Let her come. Yogeśvara: Ask the lady to have a better seat. Prabhupāda: Come. Pṛthu Putra: See, there she has a seat. Prabhupāda: Never mind, we can sit down here. Bring that chair. Devotee: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: Sylvie (?) has a question. Lady (2): I want to ask you. What does it (indistinct) when you, when there's talk of this religion of Kṛṣṇa. Is it before Christ or more? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogeśvara: This, the question of religion, did it come before Christ or before Buddha? Prabhupāda: Yes, 5,000 years ago. Lady (2): Yes, before. Prabhupāda: 5,000 years. Pṛthu Putra: (translates into French) Lady (2): 5,000 years, eh? *Prabhupāda: This is now. Before that, this was spoken some millions of years ago to the Sun*-god. You find out that verse, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Yogeśvara: Four, one. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Fourth Chapter. Pṛthu Putra: Prabhupāda: So, if you take the calculation of Manu, Manu lives for 72,000 of yugas. One yuga is 4,300,000 of years. Pṛthu Putra: (French) Prabhupāda: 4,300,000 years, one yuga. Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Prabhupāda: Multiply by 72. So that is the age of Manu. So, at least so many years before, Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken to Manu's father, Sūrya. Sūrya, the Sun-god. Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Prabhupāda: Sun*-god. So how many millions? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: About 120,000,000 years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Prabhupāda: So this philosophy was spoken 300 millions of years ago. And then again, He spoke 5,000 years ago. This is the history of Bhagavad*-gītā. Now, your question. You say that animal has no soul, is it not? Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: That a man has soul, you admit? Yogeśvara: (French) Lady (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Generally in the West it is admitted that the man possesses a soul and not the animals. Prabhupāda: So why this difference? What difference you find in animal from the man? Yogeśvara: (French) Lady (1): (French) Yogeśvara: She says it is only the body that is different. Prabhupāda: Only body difference? The man who is there has got body different. The, the Africans, they have got different body. And the Europeans have different body. There are so many men. The aborigines have got different body. So there so many men, human also. Yogeśvara: So then that is not the real difference? Prabhupāda: So what is the real difference, that I want to explain. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: So what is her reply? Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: Suppose a child has a different body... Lady (3): (French) Yogeśvara: This young lady suggests that the animals do have a soul, and that they also pass from body to body, and perhaps ultimately can come to the human form. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the explanation. You are right. Guest (2): (French) Pṛthu Putra: He says the evolution was already before, because in the vegetables is already this process of evolution of the soul. *Prabhupāda: Every living entity has soul. The body is just like the dress, just like you are sitting here under different dresses, but that does not mean we are different. That is stated in the Śrīmad Bhagavad*-gītā: vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. Find out this, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. Yogeśvara: Second Chapter. Prabhupāda: You can take it. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya, navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi. Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: This is the point. Just like I've already changed. I was a child, so small. Where is that body? That is no longer existing, But still I remember that I had the body. So I changed that body so many times. Similarly, when this body will be useless, I change to another body. This is conclusion. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: So, not only the animals. The trees, the plants, the insects, the birds, the bees, the aquatic animal: fish. Everyone has got soul. So anything, which has got life symptom, it is due to soul and so long the soul is there the change of body takes place. A child born, if it is dead, the change of body does not take place. You cannot understand? Lady (2): No. Prabhupāda: You have got now a different body, but you had a body like a child, so you cannot understand this? Why is that? Even a child can understand. You were also sometimes a body like this young girl. You do not believe that? Yogeśvara: (French) Lady (2): (French) Yogeśvara: She says she can recollect. Prabhupāda: No, but who recollects? The soul. The body is changed. The body is changed, but the soul is the same and therefore she can recollect. Yogeśvara: (French) Lady (2): (French) Yogeśvara: She says there is an example of the worm that turns into a butterfly. It changes body. Prabhupāda: Yes, she is right. Lady (2): (French) Yogeśvara: (French) Do you have any questions? Guest (3): (French) Yogeśvara: He says there is an example that a flower grows, and when it dies it gives its perfume to God. Prabhupāda: Yes, very good idea. Therefore, everyone can dedicate his energy to God. And that is called bhakti. Guest (4): (French) Yogeśvara: Is the sun to be considered a representation of God? Prabhupāda: Yes, every..., everyone is representation of God. Sun is more powerful representation. You are also representation of God. The God is also a living being. That is said in the dictionary, Oxford Dictionary. God means, "Supreme Being." So we are all beings, and God is the Supreme Being. We are limited by our power. God is unlimited by His power. Lady (3): (French) Yogeśvara: When we say Kṛṣṇa, are we speaking about God or an incarnation of God? How to define it? Prabhupāda: No, God Himself. Lady (4): (French) Yogeśvara: Then what is the meaning of the word ātmā? Prabhupāda: Ātmā means also God. Ātmā means this body. Ātmā means this mind. Ātmā means the soul, and ātmā means also God. Ātmā means the active principle which is working. Just like in you the ātmā is there, therefore your body is moving. Similarly, the active principle of the whole cosmic manifestation is God. Guest (2): (French) Yogeśvara: What is the meaning of the different cakras? Prabhupāda: Different? Yogeśvara: Cakra, cakras. Prabhupāda: Cakra? Yogeśvara: Cakras. *Prabhupāda: That is yogic process. Those who are trying to find out the Supreme from the body, for them the different cakras mean the active principle, how He is working in different places. From the abdomen to the heart, then here, then here, then here. Ṣaṭ*-cakra, six cakras. That is yogic system. Guest (1): (French) Yogeśvara: Do we have a meaning, do we have a definition for the third eye? Prabhupāda: Humm? Yogeśvara: The third eye. Prabhupāda: Third eye. The future. Future. Yogeśvara: Future? Prabhupāda: Past, present and future. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: There is a philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that you meditate on some third eye, and this opens up into the..., some spiritual realization, a mystical realization. It is very popular. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Between the two eyebrows, that is said, explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, bhruvor madhye..., ante kāle ca mām... Pṛthu Putra: (French) Prabhupāda: That's Eight Chapter, I think, bhruvor madhye. Eighth Chapter? Hmm. Is it the Eighth Chapter? Yogeśvara: That is the Eighth Chapter, text 21, 22. Prabhupāda: Ten. Read. Pṛthu Putra: Prabhupāda: This is bhruvor madhye. Guest (3): (French) Yogeśvara: He says: today, is it wise to practice this kind of meditation? Prabhupāda: Useless. They cannot. It takes very, very, long time to get perfection. Vālmīki Muni got perfection in 60,000 years. Oh, Sixth Chapter. Read this, Arjuna uvāca. Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: Yoga, this yoga system means controlling the mind. But 5,000 years ago a person like Arjuna, who had his friend Kṛṣṇa, he is saying that it is not possible for him. And at the present moment people are so degraded*-not in the position of Arjuna-how they can get success? He is not ordinary man. Such a great warrior belonged to the royal family, and so qualified that he could talk with Kṛṣṇa personally, he says that it is not possible. So, do you think that you are..., become more than Arjuna that you can get success? Pṛthu Putra: Translating into French. Prabhupāda: Read this second verse, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda: So Arjuna is presenting his inability, and what we are? Guest (3): (French) Yogeśvara: He says, in history there was the mystery of the sphinxes of Egypt, do these sphinxes carry any significance? Prabhupāda: Hum? Yogeśvara: Is the pyramid and the sphinx in Egypt civilization are any mystic significance? Pṛthu Putra: It's a great relevance for the Egyptian civilization. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like samādhi. Samādhi, when you become samādhi, then if you're, I mean to say, put within the earth, you do not die. Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Even if you are put in the earth you do not die. Pṛthu Putra: (French) *Prabhupāda: This is called kumbhaka*-yoga. Guest (3): Kunbha? Prabhupāda: Kumbhaka. So this is practiced by the frogs also. So if you get success, you get success like the frog. Lady (2): (French) Yogeśvara: Shall I tell them that story about the frog? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: (French) Prabhupāda: That means the frog was buried at least for 10,000 years. Yogeśvara: (French) *Prabhupāda: Read the last paragraph of the yoga system: yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad*-gatenāntarātmanā. Pṛthu Putra: *Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali*-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris *Śrīla Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described. In Kali*-yuga. Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto? Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. [break] ...it is stated. Yogeśvara: That's Paris. *Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta it was dangerous to go out because the next... You do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a... I was guest in our life member's. Sitting in morning, afternoon, o'clock (?). "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the backside. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. [break] ...about so*-called saintly persons, they are: tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ. "The so-called yogis, they'll live in the town." Actually, the yogis have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in... Just like the other... He's living in Paris City, and he's a yogi. Yogeśvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grāma*-vāsā nyāsino 'tyartha-lolupāḥ: "And the sannyāsīs, they'll be too much greedy about money." Yogeśvara: Just see. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Salvation Army. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. The Lions... Yogeśvara: Lion's Club? Prabhupāda: Lion's Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street. Yogeśvara: They call them "Flophouses". *Prabhupāda: Anyway. So vāsaḥ anna. Food. Vāsaḥ anna. Vāsa means residence. Anna means food. Pāna means drinking, milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And śayana, sleeping or lying down on bed. Vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, and vyavāya, sex. Sex also required. Vyavāya, snāna. I have seen in New York. They have no... In a humbug, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snāna. So these things, nil. "When these things will be nil," vāsa, anna, pāna, śayana, vyavāya, snāna, bhūṣaṇaiḥ, "and dress," hīnāḥ, "being devoid of all these things," piśāca*-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti, "they will be just like, what is called, urchins." Yogeśvara: Piśācī. Prabhupāda: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort and looking like big, big hair. Piśācī. Piśāca. What is the English? Nitāi: Ghost? *Prabhupāda: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghost*-like. Hīnāḥ piśāca-sandarśā bhaviṣyanti kalau prajāḥ: "In the Kali-yuga, the prajāḥ, people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they'll look like ghost." Then? Satsvarūpa: The guests are here. Nitāi: There are many guests here to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. "Even they'll not give protection old parents." Yogeśvara: To old parents. Prabhupāda: Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jyotirmayī (translator): So I'd like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is... He's called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransad. He's a Christian priest also who, that I knew and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he'd like to come with this lady who's come, Madame Siaude. She's living in India usually. Prabhupāda: Oh, you live in India? Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry. Prabhupāda: Pondicherry? Madame Siaude: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, Aurobindo's place. Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time. Jyotirmayī: And she was studying with M. Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She's very much studying Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... Prabhupāda: Hm. Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Jyotirmayī: Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And we'd like to invite also M. Misraki. He's a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together. Prabhupāda: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is... Jyotirmayī: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransad asked me, was: "Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person." Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand. Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God. Jyotirmayī: What? Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is impersonal. (French) Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person. How the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said, "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then He's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then... The Christians pray in the church, "Oh, God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (French) Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is... We have a personal relationship with God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Absolute Truth is realized from three angles of vision, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person, and Paramātmā, all-pervading, localized, and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal the sun globe, localized, and the sun*-god person. [break] Jyotirmayī: He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything. *Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta*-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Whatever things are there... In the Bible, also there is... "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. The resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. Nitāi: Brahmaṇaḥ aham... Prabhupāda: Purport. Nitāi: "The constitution of Brahman..." Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. You have to explain. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: I'll get another. Bhagavān: In the meantime, we can translate from here. Jyotirmayī: He's asking when, how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jyotirmayī: He's asking how old are the... Yogeśvara: How old are the *Vedas*? Prabhupāda: *Vedas*? Yogeśvara: These Vedic scriptures, we are reading, how are old are they, he's asking. *Prabhupāda: They are from the creation. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi*-kavaye. Find out this verse. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Find out this verse. Nitāi: Prabhupāda: Now who will translate? You, one by one, line, the translation you speak. *Nitāi: O.K. "I offer my obeisances unto Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the son of Vāsudeva, who is the Supreme, All*-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell, and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahmā." Prabhupāda: And this is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: "Who is the first created living being." Prabhupāda: You read another verse, aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca [Bg 10.2]. Aham ādir hi devānām. (loud noise in background) Never mind, never mind. Don't bother. That's all right. *Nitāi: Oh, from the Bhagavad*-gītā? Aham...? Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām. In the Bible it is said, "There was word." That is Vedic knowledge. Nitāi: Aham ādir hi devānāṁ maharṣīṇāṁ ca sarvaśaḥ: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Yogeśvara: You said also in the Bible it is said, "There is the word." Prabhupāda: That word, sound, is the *Vedas*. So before creation, *Vedas* were there. So you cannot find out the history of *Vedas*. You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, *Vedas* were there. (French) Yogeśvara: He (the Bishop) says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the *Vedas*. He says there are still distinctions. Prabhupāda: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect, the later edition or the original. (French) Jyotirmayī: They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning. Everything together. He said that he's very much respecting your research, and that he's asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the *Vedas*, the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. (French) Yogeśvara: He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the *Vedas*, but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences. Prabhupāda: What is that? (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in that chapter, it also says that the word of God became flesh and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. (French) Yogeśvara: They say... They accept... They think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also he was part of this material world. Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body. Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. A material body, how there can be resurrection? Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French) Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Jyotirmayī: They said it is by the acintya power of God. Prabhupāda: These, these rascals, they thought that "Jesus had a material body. Let us kill him." So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body. Jyotirmayī: Bewildered them? Yogeśvara: Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: "All right, go on thinking like that." Prabhupāda: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. (French) Jyotirmayī: So he's saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we... Prabhupāda: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain... Yogeśvara: What is the reason for his incarnation? Prabhupāda: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has... That means he has got spiritual body. You... French Woman: Yes, we accept that he got the has got spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body. Prabhupāda: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, "Oh Father." Then why "only son"? French Woman: We say that the son is... Prabhupāda: Then everyone is son. French Woman: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes. Prabhupāda: If I address God, "My father," then I am his son. So why there should be "only son"? (French) French Woman: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. (laughter) (French) Jyotirmayī: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption. Yogeśvara: Adopted son. Yes. Prabhupāda: So therefore these sons' body and Jesus's body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. (French) Yogeśvara: Their idea is that: Yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men. Prabhupāda: Why he should accept? French Woman: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that... Prabhupāda: But his death... You think that he was died, but he resurrected. French Woman: But the gospel says that he had died. Prabhupāda: That's all right. French Woman: You cannot... We accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word. Prabhupāda: No. No, no. "Died" means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. (French) French Woman: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith. Yogeśvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. (French) Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. You understand Sanskrit? French Woman: No, I don't understand it by hearing it. You have to read it. Prabhupāda: Na hanyate, does not die, hanyamāne śarīre, apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. (French) *Yogeśvara: So... Shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor*-are they called Pastor?-describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others' positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death... Prabhupāda: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. (French) So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don't want to see him dead. French Woman: No. Death and resurrection after, Jesus. Yogeśvara: There's a resurrection. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame, Madame Devi? Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa which is a big part of the Oriental religions. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir. Yogeśvara: Kashmir? Prabhupāda: Yes. (French) Yogeśvara: Where was this? In a newspaper? Prabhupāda: Yes. In paper I saw. (French) French Woman: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history because everybody has his own documentation. Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that... Here, at least, in London, I have seen. There are so many churches vacant. (French) Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference, last night and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God? Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle... (to Jyotirmayī:) Explain. (French) Similarly, this huge, gigantic, cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? (French) Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our... Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Vāsudeva who is the origin of all creation." This is the active principle. There is. So... And how He is working? (To Jyotirmayī:) You have to explain. (French) In the beginning of *Bhāgavatam*, I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation, it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ, cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then... Of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ. He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. (French) *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: That would be impersonal. (French) Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God. And it is being distributed through Brahmā. And he's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. (French) Yogeśvara: She says that God is known as antaryāmī, the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the practice of yoga. (French) French Woman: I guess if you have the idea of prapatti, of surrender... Prabhupāda: Yes. French Woman: ...this is a way to God directly. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is the real process. French Woman: But it is not yoga. It is different from yoga? *Prabhupāda: No, it is bhakti*-yoga. French Woman: Prapatti is different. *Prabhupāda: Prapatti is bhakti*-yoga. French Woman: You take it in bhakti? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti, yes. Prapatti means bhakti. Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā, the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19], this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: [Bg. 7.19] "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything." When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen." (French) Jyotirmayī: So she said that in..., it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot, they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar*-bahiḥ yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?), "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And naradita..., nan tad yadi bahi hari sthapasata tat (?), "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. (French) Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said. (French) Yogeśvara: (Translating) Well, first you said that, first we must learn about God and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first. Prabhupāda: But unless one... We say, "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion... Religion means... What does he say? Yogeśvara: He says, "But God reveals Himself to us." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is... That is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ: [Brs. 1.2.234] "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present (the ten) senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue. One is talking, and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasādam, then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been, they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam." And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American Government spent millions of dollars to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, immediately give up. (French) Jyotirmayī: They say they are very glad for all of this. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement. (French) Chanting the holy name of God. You don't... I don't say that you take Kṛṣṇa, the name of... If you have got any other name, you can chant. (French) Yogeśvara: So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Jyotirmayī: He was very sad yesterday when there was some people making noises. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difficulty. They are... Gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Urchins. Very degraded. Jyotirmayī: (French) Prabhupāda: That I was discussing from *Bhāgavatam*, how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. (French) Yogeśvara: He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing... Prabhupāda: Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. (French) Yogeśvara: Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted. Prabhupāda: So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. (French) But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers. Yogeśvara: From? Prabhupāda: From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill," and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. (French) Bhagavān: What did he say? Yogeśvara: He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. There was... Yogeśvara: Yes, they stayed until midnight. Bhagavān: The total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o'clock. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Twelve o'clock. Bhagavān: Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. (French) Yogeśvara: He says that's very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss. *Prabhupāda: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra: [Cc. Ādi 8.15] "Just consider and then give your judgement after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra: "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra: "If you consider it with logic and judgement, then you'll find it is sublime." (French) *Bhagavān: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad*-gītā, cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said, "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation. Yogeśvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say you cannot chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material. Prabhupāda: That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun and moon... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...because the body of God is giving off light. Prabhupāda: No, the residents also, they are bright. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Yes, illuminating. Prabhupāda: Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. (French) Jyotirmayī: They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they to take... Prabhupāda: Ācchā? One hour we have passed? Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Distribute this flower. Come on. Yogeśvara: Bring the chair so that she can sit. (some guests leave) American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ. I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalaḥ. Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that? Yogeśvara: He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ?" Prabhupāda: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. Yogeśvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some... Madame Devi: (French) Pṛthu Putra: She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death. Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you prepare yourself... Because... Just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. Do you understand English? (French) American Man: I'm American. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Madame Devi: (French) Pṛthu Putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts. Yogeśvara: Thoughts. She asks, she says, "Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. (French) Madame Devi: (French) Pṛthu Putra: She says, "Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what's happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action because the thoughts..." Bhagavān: "The thoughts begin the action." Yogeśvara: "The thoughts begin the action, determine the actions." Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture. Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: "Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group." Prabhupāda: There is no "all religion." There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God and we should be obedient to God. This is religion. Madame Devi: (French) Jyotirmayī: She says, "Therefore is not necessary to go by one's special path?" Prabhupāda: No, there is no special path. There is only one path, that "God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God." That's all. No, if you... They accept this? American Man: I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go... Prabhupāda: No, no, do you accept this principle, that "God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him"? American Man: My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God. Prabhupāda: Yes. American Man: If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it... Prabhupāda: No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That's all. American Man: God, for me, is a word. It's a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God. Prabhupāda: Simply you understand. American Man: I understand the light. Prabhupāda: No, no, you understand. You say, "God is word." That means you understand God. American Man: No. Prabhupāda: Then why do you say, "God is word"? American Man: I say God cannot be explained with words. Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that? American Man: Because I... Prabhupāda: If you do not know the subject matter... You say that "God is not knowable," then how can you speak of God? American Man: I do not speak of God. Prabhupāda: No, you are speaking that "God is word." You say, "God is word." American Man: No, I say God is only a word, and that's why I cannot speak of God, because it's a word and it cannot explain. Prabhupāda: But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things? American Man: No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word... Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept. American Man: It is light. I speak of the light. Prabhupāda: Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know... Sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know. American Man: No, no, no. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light. American Man: If you wish to call it "God..." No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once and once only. Prabhupāda: Now, now, you say that God is light. American Man: So we'll understand. Prabhupāda: Do you say, "God is light"? American Man: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then you know God. Then why do you say, "God cannot be known"? American Man: I say that "God" is a word. Prabhupāda: You say, "light" or "word." What is the... What is the definite... American Man: I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me. Prabhupāda: That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God. American Man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know... American Man: I feel the light here. Prabhupāda: Yes, anywhere. Light is here also. American Man: And that's all there is. Prabhupāda: That is... That is all right. Light is here also, not only... American Man: Light is here. Light is this table. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. American Man: Light is this floor. Light is everything. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light. American Man: Because for me, God is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word? Yogeśvara: I think you've been defeated. American Man: No, no, I don't think I've been defeated. Prabhupāda: Yes. American Man: And I'm not warring. I'm not making war with you. I simply want to understand... Prabhupāda: No, no, you... You fix up one thing. You say, "God is light." That word light is God? Or that... American Man: I do not say God is light. Prabhupāda: Yes, you said that. American Man: I say there is only light. I say there is only light. Prabhupāda: Only light? American Man: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that is God. American Man: I do not speak of God; I speak of light. Prabhupāda: Then you do not know God. You accept one position. American Man: I say there is light. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you do not know whether light is God. American Man: What is God? Explain to me what is God. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Talk with him. He'll simply waste my time. American Man: If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it. Prabhupāda: Just go and take him. You go and he'll explain to you, please. American Man: He cannot explain to me. Prabhupāda: Then you go away. Please. What can I do? American Man: It's as you wish. Prabhupāda: I cannot waste. American Man: If you cannot explain to me what is God... I speak of light, so... Prabhupāda: But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything. American Man: I speak of light. I don't say I know everything, but I speak of light, that's all. That's all I said. Dhanañjaya: You're wasting our spiritual master's time. What is the point in coming here if you're just going to talk nonsense? Please come. American Man: Oh, I'll come. (leaves) Bhagavān: Why was he brought in in the first place. Anyway, we can continue, but... Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: "Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?" *Prabhupāda: Yes. That I explained, sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Those who are in sattva-guṇa, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guṇa, they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guṇa, they cannot. (French) Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?" Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all. Yogeśvara: By past karma. Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that. Madame Devi: (French) Yogeśvara: She asks if by repeating the mantra, the name of God, it has more... Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified. Yogeśvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. (French) Madame Devi: (French) Pṛthu Putra: She says, "Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God every day." Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Madame Devi: (French) Pṛthu Putra: She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God. Madame Devi: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān: So it's time for Śrīla Prabhupāda's massage. [break] *Prabhupāda: In old age he'll be crippled like that. Then he said that "I am also going to be like that? No. What is the value?" Then he began meditation, how to stop old age. Then he gradually became very great, saintly person, and studied Veda, karma, and by bad karma, one becomes subjected with material tribulation, and the most of the bad karma, he thought, was killing of animals, so he wanted to stop this. That is Buddha's... "Stop animal killing." Sadaya*-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. *Yogeśvara: He's viṣṇu*-tattva? *Prabhupāda: No, he's not viṣṇu*-tattva. He's jīva-tattva. Yogeśvara: Śaktyāveśāvatāra. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: Did you say three? One or three? Prabhupāda: What is that? Devotee: When you offer something... You once said in Delhi, "Either one or three." Prabhupāda: That is neck bead. No. Yes. Yes, not... Yes, yes. Ārati. Ārati. Devotee: Yes, Śrutakīrti had offered my son two cookies. Prabhupāda: No, no. Devotee: And I think you said, "Either one or three." Prabhupāda: No, no. I said... Devotee: Two or four? Prabhupāda: Two or four. Devotee: Is there some reason behind this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Three is offered to the enemy. If I offer something, three, that means "You are my enemy." Devotee: So how many sticks of incense? Two? Prabhupāda: There is no such... Yogeśvara: Now, one thing is that we accept Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa on reference from *Vedas*, but Buddha denied the value of the *Vedas*. *Prabhupāda: That is... When we pray, offer pray, it is stated that that is his, one of the qualifications. Sada... Nindasi. Nindasi yajña*-vidher. The animal sacrifice is recommended... Some of the sacrifices or all of them... So that animal sacrifice was not meant for eating. Just to give them new, rejuvenated life by the Vedic mantras, to test that whether Vedic mantras are being chanted properly. And because at the Kali-yuga there is no such expert brāhmaṇa, all sacrifices are forbidden. So later on, as they deteriorated, they began to offer sacrifices, and if anyone wants to stop it, they will say, "Oh, it is recommended in the Vedas." Just like these rascals, Christian: "Oh, Christ ate fish. Therefore we must maintain slaughterhouse." Just see how rascal they are. Supposing Christ ate somewhere fish. Therefore they would maintain regularly slaughterhouse of cows. This is their brain. *Yogeśvara: When you were here last year, there was a meeting at the Indian Tourist Bureau, a press meeting, and there was a man who came to meet you at that time who is president of the court of Paris. And he was supposed to be a Buddhist. Do you remember this gentleman? He said to you that "Meat*-eating... We must eat meat in the West. Maybe in India, because of the climate, you can get away with that." *Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom, another rascaldom. He's a first*-class rascal. That was the support by Vivekananda. He was eating everything. All the Ramakrishna Mission, they say like that, "Oh, without meat-eating, without drinking, you cannot stay." All rascals. Therefore, the conclusion is, all rascals, the religious, social, all rascal. If they want to be saved from their rascal position, this is the only, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If they don't want to be saved, if they want to go to hell, who can check? Ātma-han. Ātma-han means "self-suicide." Suicide, yes. If you cut your throat yourself, who can save you? So they are all these like, all, all these Buddhists, Christian. We may not speak very strongly. They will be our enemies. Bhagavān: There's other guests here. Prabhupāda: Shortly. But this is the position. They're all rascals. But we don't hate anyone. We want to raise them. Actually they're all rascals. Do you accept this philosophy... Yogeśvara: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...that they are all rascals? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let them come forward. Jaya. Bhagavān: Please come. Sit. Please come sit. (end) Morning Walk -- June 17, 1974, Germany Prabhupāda: What is there? He is digging? [break] Just see the fun. *Devotee: Of all the four pillars of sinful activity, is meat*-eating the worst? Prabhupāda: Everything is worst. Sinful is sinful. Disease is disease. This body, either it is living or it is dead, it is not very important thing. Now see. And the whole world is after this body. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body, either dead or alive, it is not a subject matter for serious consideration." Now see. And what the world is going on? Simply for bodily... Body means senses. It is very difficult to the, for the western people to understand that body is not important thing; *the soul is important thing. First of all, they do not know what is soul and then consideration of importance. This is their position. And if one cannot understand what is soul, what he will understand about God? Soul is a minute particle of God. If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly. Very, very, big, big building and advancement, but all rascals and fools. Fool's paradise. (pause) And if you call a fool a fool, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). (pause) [break] ...so many, so much production, but if nature's law can stop this production, then the question of over*-population. If the nature likes, it can produce three times, four times this production. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. After all, nature is producing. We do not know how to deal with nature. Therefore there is scarcity, and we say, "over-population." There is no question of over-population. There are so many hundreds and thousands of birds within this forest, other animals. They have no problems of over-population. Eh? (pause) All these men, who are living in these villages, so what is their means of livelihood? Agriculture or industry? Or service? Haṁsadūta: I think mostly they work at some... Well, some service, yes. Prabhupāda: Factory. Haṁsadūta: Employed at some factory. But very few people actually work on the land. And we can see so much land. No one is working. 'Cause by machine, they can work so quick on the land. [break] Prabhupāda: This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself. Devotee: Now they've found out, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that India has been, over the past few years, spending crores of rupees to develop the... *Prabhupāda: Hm. And people are starving for want of. There was a cartoon that some public came to some minister: "Sir, we are starving. Give us our food." So the reply was: "Of course, that's a problem, food problem. But I can assure you that from next week you'll have television." (laughter) These rascals are like that. "Next, from next week, you'll have television, atom bomb. Never mind. Starve." (laughter) So that is also becoming fool's paradise. Jaḍa*-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. In this way, the more we increase sense, sense gratification by advancement of material..., the more we forget Kṛṣṇa. And more we forget Kṛṣṇa, we are more fools. (aside:) Don't come so near. Devotee: In England and America now, more and more there is a big movement for birth control and contraceptives... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee: ...as their means to conquer over the so*-called over-population problem. *Prabhupāda: No, it is not over*-population. They don't want to take care of children. This is their problem. It is not the question of over-population. They want to remain free and enjoy life, that's all. No responsibility. That is the hippies. That is the hippy movement. Devotee: I have seen in all the big colleges and universities in England that I have been to, that this, amongst the students, the boys and girls, it is becoming so free. It is just like a hippy commune, the universities and colleges. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are indebted in so many ways. Therefore human being should be responsible. But the modern civilization is teaching to become irresponsible. Haṁsadūta: [break] ...there, on the sun. Prabhupāda: So suppose if your heat increases, what happens to you? Haṁsadūta: I get sick. *Prabhupāda: That's all. [break] ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ [Bg. 3.42]. Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness [break] ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇḍavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy. They'll rule over, each one on the village." "No, Sir. Not a piece of land holding the tip of the needle can be spared without fighting." This is the world. The German, German war, First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything. And they'll purchase from Germany goods and cheat people..., Haṁsadūta: And sell... Prabhupāda: ..."Made in London," and sell it fifteen times higher than the Germans. This was their business. And that was the cause of... Is it not? Those who have studied history... This is the cause. So all this nonsense thing can be solved if we take it: "This is Kṛṣṇa's property." And if you know something, you are manufac..., that's all right. You do it. I do something else. Or even if I do it, where is the cause of fighting? Because they do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with German Women Philosophers -- June 17, 1974, Germany Pṛthu: ...that we all, when we are in material life, we have so many duties, so many works, so many things to do, but then, when she's dead, she wants peace for herself. She wants to be... She has this peaceful situation, wants to be situated in that. Prabhupāda: After death. Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So everyone will get that peace? (German) Pṛthu: She thinks that everyone will get after death this peace. Prabhupāda: The cats and dogs, everyone? The same? (German) Pṛthu: [break] ...different from cats and dogs in as much as he has something spiritual in himself, and she says if this spiritual is more emotions and so on. Prabhupāda: So what is that difference? (German) Pṛthu: Cats and dogs are animals, and they don't have, animals, they don't have any spiritual life. They live more after instincts. Prabhupāda: So if the man and animal is working for the same purpose... Just like man is eating, and the animal is also eating. A man is sleeping, and the animal is also sleeping. The man is also having sexual intercourse, and the animal also doing that. And man is also fearful of his enemy, and the animal also fearful of enemies. So if the platform of activities are the same, why the difference is there? [break] Pṛthu: She says that the difference is that the men does all these activities with his mind and... Prabhupāda: But the activity is the same, eating. Where is the difference between these activities or that activities? (German) Pṛthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spirit soul, this. She says that... Prabhupāda: No, no. I think the... When a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (German) [break] Pṛthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence, this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the, but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence. Prabhupāda: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence. Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (German) [break] ...such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced, the dog or the man? (German) Pṛthu: Yes she admits that the man by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do, she says. Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (German) [break] Pṛthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and... Prabhupāda: So is that very good intelligence? (German) Pṛthu: So she says that this intelligence is actually not good. She says this intelligence... Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of getting better intelligence than the dog? (German) [break] Haṁsadūta: ...like to have more, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: No. Pṛthu: She thinks that she doesn't want to answer to your point. She says that the man has got his intelligence by God, but he misuses his intelligence. Prabhupāda: But God has given intelligence for this bad work? (German) Pṛthu: She says that God has not given this intelligence for this bad work, but that is due to the faulty mankind. Prabhupāda: Therefore misuse of intelligence will cause his suffering. Now suppose a tiger kills an animal, and a man kills thousands of animals in a day in the slaughterhouse. Is he not sinful? (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is the evil in mankind. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the conclusion is that the so*-called intelligent man is simply misusing his intelligence. So when he misuses his intelligence he is less than the cats and dogs. Yes. (German) And then, after death, how he'll be in peace? (German) [break] Pṛthu: She says that every man will get this peace, also the bad men. Prabhupāda: Bad men also will get peace? (German) Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. (laughter) Just see. How nonsense philosophers they are! (German) Pṛthu: She says that this is their... She's also on your side. She says that this would not be right if the bad men were to get the same thing as the good men. Prabhupāda: She said the bad man also will get peace. (laughs) (German) Pṛthu: So this lady's point is: where shall the bad man go after death? Prabhupāda: He'll become a dog. (German) Pṛthu: She says that this would mean that there is a hell. But she doesn't believe in hell. *Prabhupāda: He may not believe, but hell is there. If... You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ [Bg. 14.18]. Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said, "Yes. There is no hell." Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ. Pṛthu: What is it? Prabhupāda: Ūrdhvam. And she is a philosopher? (German) Pṛthu: She says she is a primitive, simple man. Prabhupāda: But still not willing to go to hell. (German) You found? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read it. *Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva*-sthāḥ... *Prabhupāda: Sattva*-sthāḥ. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Just... Translator. *Satsvarūpa: Pg. 666... Well, it's fourteen*-eighteen. (German) Pṛthu: [break] ...where these hellish worlds are? She asks you where these hellish worlds are? Prabhupāda: They're, they are different planets. (German) Pṛthu: She wants to know how we know this. Prabhupāda: From the books. (German) [break] Pṛthu: So she feels... It seems that she feels a little bit attacked by this hellish worlds. So now she says that Jesus has come to save men and not to, to destroy them. So he says Jesus even came to the robbers and with a purpose to save them. Prabhupāda: Well, but provided the follower abides by the order of Jesus. Jesus can save them if the man follows the Jesus order. (German) [break] Pṛthu: ...say? Prabhupāda: Jesus has given some instruction or not? (German) Pṛthu: So he says that Jesus has given some directions and this is that we should love our brother in the same way as we love ourselves and that we should not do any harm to anyone. Prabhupāda: But Jesus has said also those who are sinful, they'll go to hell? Is it not? Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I can't think of any quote, but of course, that's the teachings of God the father. Prabhupāda: Yes. (German) Pṛthu: Yes, yes, she says that there is something like eternal condemn in the Christian teachings, like Jesus said. Prabhupāda: Eternally hellish life. Pṛthu: Yes. Prabhupāda: So then why she says that everyone will go, peace? (German) [break] Pṛthu: She makes no... She said that if she could listen to Jesus, what he said, formerly, then she would know, but she says actually one cannot believe it so much because can anyone believe that he has made the dead Lazarus... This was a person who already died, and Jesus came and gave him life back. So she says nobody can believe that, that Jesus has made this dead Lazarus... Prabhupāda: I don't follow. What is that? Satsvarūpa: She, from what he says, she does not actually believe in Jesus. Prabhupāda: Who? Satsvarūpa: This lady. She says that who can be sure of what Jesus actually did because he was... Prabhupāda: Then why, why she quotes Jesus? If she does not believe in Jesus, why she's giving evidence from Jesus? (German) [break] Pṛthu: She says like if she makes a comparison like if today there is a car crash, then all the people will say something different and the information will differ from the original car crash. So she says, in the same way, what Jesus did and said is now twisted around so nobody can actually give... Prabhupāda: That means everyone has rejected Jesus. (German) [break] Pṛthu: ...that what Jesus said, this is all right, but what is now made of it, this one shouldn't take wordly. Prabhupāda: Hm? Pṛthu: She says what Jesus said is all right, but what is now existing from that, one should not take wordly. Haṁsadūta: Literally. Prabhupāda: Hm? I do not follow. Haṁsadūta: That which has been written down about his activities or his speaking cannot be accepted literally because who knows. Prabhupāda: Then why do you quote? (German) [break] Pṛthu: So she makes a difference what is true and what is not true. Prabhupāda: But if you, if you cannot follow Bible literally, then where is the truth? (German) [break] ...new truth. (German) Pṛthu: So she speaks of a fashion today, that there's a fashion going on, and she says this fashion is all right, and this fashion is that one takes all the miracles and all the mythological things out of the Bible, and one causes... *Prabhupāda: So there is no truth. It is all hodge*-podge. (German) Pṛthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what... *Prabhupāda: So it is a hodge*-podge. (German) Pṛthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles. Prabhupāda: Hm? Pṛthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements... Prabhupāda: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally. Pṛthu: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of taking Bible? (German) [break] Pṛthu: ...that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (end) Morning Walk -- June 19, 1974, Germany *Prabhupāda: ...five items. No illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat*-eating and chant sixteen rounds. Is it very difficult task? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: And why people do not take it? Haṁsadūta: They are just foolish. Prabhupāda: If by following these five principles one can be saved from all problems of life... Still, people will not take it. Just see, strong māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. [break] What was the later on talk? Haṁsadūta: With her? She just left. But the other old lady, who was appreciating your movement, she was singing and dancing all night. She was incredible. Singing and dancing and playing karatālas. Prabhupāda: At present Christian religion is made easy. Christian religion made easy. What is that? Now, first of all Christ has taken out contract that "You go on committing all sinful life. I am guaranteeing you will be saved." Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Or...? What is that? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So poor Christ has taken all concern. He will be crucified, and they will enjoy life. This is very easy religion. "I have nothing to do, and besides that, if Christ says something to do, that also we can neglect because he has taken guarantee. So although Christ says, 'Thou shalt not kill,' I can neglect that." And then, if still he is captured, he will say, "Bible is very old." Haṁsadūta: How can we accept it? *Prabhupāda: (laughing) How they have made easy life, that see. They are... There is a story that a boy went for examination. So when he came back, his father asked, "My dear boy, how you have written your question paper?" "Yes, very nice." "How?" "No, those questions which were very difficult, I could not answer. And the easier questions, what is to write? I know everything. (laughter) Easier questions, there is no need of writing. I know everything." Both ways he has not written anything. So these rascals, both ways they will not follow anything. And still, they will credit... Not only Christians, everywhere these people want to banish God. Simply we are canvassing "God, God, God." Otherwise nobody cares. Say about 1945, so in front of my house there was an old man. So as neighbor, we had very good talks always. So as soon as I say, "Bhagavān," he will be angry. "God." So one day he said, "Why you always say Bhagavān, God?" Just see, an old man and still he is such a rascal. He did not like. That is called demonism. Even the father of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that five years old boy, he was doing nothing harm, simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa*-he became angry: "No, no." So big enemy that he wanted to kill him. This is demoniac. Some bad smell? Haṁsadūta: I don't know. [break] Prabhupāda: There was a movement, Moral Rearmament Movement, started from America. Haṁsadūta: What was the name of it? Prabhupāda: MRA, MRA, Moral Rearmament Movement. Do you know, anyone of you? Haṁsadūta: No. Do you, Satsvarūpa? No. Prabhupāda: So it was going on for some years, then collapsed. The movement was started by some priest or gentleman, and it was supported by President Eisenhower. It was patronized by him. So their principle was that, Christian principle, that "You do whatever you... Simply confess. Simply confess." So that man came to India also with his party, just like I travel. [break] ...substance, no movement will stay. It may go on for some time, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. Now, what about our movement? It will stay or it will also go like that? Satsvarūpa: It will stay. We already have another generation coming up in Gurukula. The big danger, you say, is faction. Prabhupāda: We shall go straight or right? Haṁsadūta: Right. [break] He has taken safety place, and from safety place he is killing other poor animals. That is not shooting. The kṣatriyas, they will shoot tiger face to face. Previously Jaipur Mahārāja, he used to go to the forest, and so he would simply fight with the tiger with a sword. Haṁsadūta: That doesn't happen anymore today. Prabhupāda: See the tiger has got its nails and teeth and jaw. So there was no firearm. He will challenge the tiger with a..., and he will take a sword and kill him. And then the tiger would be brought in procession, giving all honor, military honor. Haṁsadūta: To the tiger. Prabhupāda: That was the kṣatriya's practice, how to combat his enemies. Fighting should be on the equal level, not that "I take all shelter, and you are open to be killed by enemy." [break] ...understood the process of transmigration. Haṁsadūta: Yes. [break] Mādhavānanda: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Could it be said, then, that we are transmigrating even while in this life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Mādhavānanda: From boyhood to youth. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is transmigration? Transmigration means the first body you lose; you enter a second body, a third body, fourth. So your childhood body is not existing. Therefore you are in different body. Mādhavānanda: So that way anyone can understand. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of understanding. And Kṛṣṇa says, the authority, that "This is the way." It is not that I have manufactured some philosophy. No. The most powerful authority, He says. So where is the position to deny it? Who can deny it, Kṛṣṇa's statement? If somebody denies, then he is a rascal. That's all. Therefore we say that we have no difficulty to find out a rascal. As soon as one denies this, Kṛṣṇa's statement, he is a rascal. That's it. Anyone who does not accept the transmigration of the soul, he is a rascal, that's all, immediately. So easily understood, and still they will not understand. What is the possible objection? Satsvarūpa: Well, that example can be understood, but for the materialist, he doesn't see how it applies to afterlife, one takes another body. Prabhupāda: Why, why he does not? Satsvarūpa: Because he can't perceive. He can perceive that he has changed from child to old man, but he can't perceive what is going to happen after death. So who knows? Prabhupāda: But he cannot perceive that we, at night we change this body and go to another body when we dream? He cannot perceive? Your body, this body, is laid down on the bed, and you go away, and you are thinking that you are in Europe and America or in the sky or so many things. So what is that? Satsvarūpa: Yes, while its happening he can't perceive it. Prabhupāda: But that is happening. He is seeing. He is a man. He is seeing. Why he cannot perceive? What is the difficulty? What is the answer, anyone? Mādhavānanda: He is in illusion. Prabhupāda: Illusion. You are seeing an illusion? Some tiger is coming. You are crying, "Save me, save me." It is illusion. This body is also illusion. But you are affected. That means you are experiencing. How you can say that you are not perceiving? And when in dream you see your beloved or woman and man, there is no, nothing such thing, but still, there is discharge. Why? Why you are not perceiving? How you can say that you are not perceiving. It is perceiving. What is the answer? You are perceiving every night... Satsvarūpa: Yes, in dreams. Prabhupāda: ...that you leave this body, you accept another body and do something else which you see. If that is illusion, then this is also illusion. Because in daytime you forget that night activities, and at night you forget the day activities. So this is also illusion. So therefore you are in illusion. That's a fact, day and night, day and night. That is called māyā. This is also māyā. But they have accepted this as fact. The gross illusion they have taken as fact. This is also illusion. You are thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "German." What is that? By one kick of nature you are out, the cat and dog. This is also illusion. What is not illusion? Haṁsadūta: So there are also living beings, they accept the subtle material as illusion just as we are accepting this gross. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is going on. Therefore the problem is where is my real life? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one understands, the rascal, that "This is also illusion. This is also illusion. Then where is my actual life?" that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Haṁsadūta: I was hearing some statement about, from mediumship, of people who had died and they are living on a subtle platform, and they don't actually know that they have died. They are so absorbed that they mentally... *Prabhupāda: That is all... They may think like that, but this is practical thing. Try to understand that in daytime you are illusioned by this gross body, and at night you are illusioned by the subtle body. So both of them are illusion. Therefore if you are intelligent, your inquiry should be "What is my real life?" That is intelligence, "What I am?" That is... Sanātana Gosvāmī placed before... "What I am?" Ke āmi. That "I am simply hovering in illusion, gross and subtle. Then what is my real position? What I am?" That is real philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is called Brahman. When I am Brahman", so that is the beginning: "What I am? What is my position?" That illusion is going on. So the material life means he is in illusion for millions and millions of years. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgya... So out of many such millions and millions living entities, one becomes conscious, that "What is my real life?" That is awakening. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Then he begins his devotional life: "My real life is this." Mādhavānanda: Then as soon as one begins to understand who he is, the transmigration stops. *Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that understanding? His understanding is that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa as He wants and serve Him." This is life. As soon as he is on this platform, then he is out of illusion. And if he is perfect, then just after giving up this body he goes to Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. If he does not fall from this transcendental service of Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after death he is transferred. Just like we are transferred from this gross body to subtle body, similarly, after death a devotee is transferred immediately to the Kṛṣṇa, where Kṛṣṇa is there, either within this material world or... They are first of all given chance to go to Kṛṣṇa. In any brahmāṇḍa there is Kṛṣṇa. Nitya*-līlā is going on. So he is born there. Then actually plays with Kṛṣṇa, dance with Kṛṣṇa, talks with Kṛṣṇa. Apprenticeship. This is also apprenticeship here. So is there any difficulty of perception? Satsvarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: Why you said that "I have no perception?" There is perception, every day, every night. How you can say there is no perception? The perception is so strong, sometimes one dreaming some horrible position, he cannot more sleep. The sleep breaks. So why there is no perception? He is so much troubled that breaks. He immediately comes to the safe side of this gross body. Devotee (1): Yes, takes shelter. *Prabhupāda: So how do you say there is no perception? So this transmigration of soul takes place that... Just like in daytime we are in this body, nighttime we leave this body and work with the subtle body, so transmigration soul takes place*-with that subtle body he enters the womb of suitable mother, and this body is left. And there he grows again this gross body and then comes out. Is it difficult to understand? That is not illusion. That's fact. And death means that you left this gross body and the period you do not come out in another gross body, that period is called death. That period is called death. Satsvarūpa: So you are dead for about seven months. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be, according to the body you are getting. There are 8,400,000 species of body. So according to your work you will be allowed to enter into the womb of mother. How can you check it? Where is your scientist? That is nature's law, automatically. Just like if you are infected, you get this disease. That's all. There is no need of mother nature will take personal... No, the rules are so fine that you will get automatically. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā*-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. The Kṛṣṇa's energies are so powerful and subtle that it takes everything takes automatically. One set up, then after that, after that, after that, after that-everything is there. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have no control. You are simply under the grip of material nature. Everything, whatever you are doing, immediately it is being recorded automatically. Just like automatic printing press. You simply push the paper, and magazine comes. If you can manufacture some machine, you rascal, then how subtle machine can work on under the supervision of the Supreme? Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that if we could remember our past life, we would go crazy because it is so frustrating to continue transmigrating. Prabhupāda: Even in this life we experience so much frustration. Even if we remember now, we become horrible: "Oh, I was in this state of life, I was in this state of life." Immediately shudder. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has saved me." You should be obliged that Kṛṣṇa has given you shelter. You should... "Do not go again to that other platform." That is intelligence. The other day who was telling me that in Northern Pole, because there is no day, so many people commit suicide. Is it not? Mādhavānanda: Sweden has the highest suicide rate. Prabhupāda: Because that is horrible condition for any intelligent man. There is no day. Why they commit suicide in Sweden? Mādhavānanda: Because it is horrible condition. Prabhupāda: On account of that? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. Mādhavānanda: So I hear. Prabhupāda: So just see how Kṛṣṇa's management, nature's management, there is day and night, day and night, day and night. Otherwise it is horrible. If it is all simply day, it is horrible also. And if it is simply night, that is also horrible. So He is so kind He has given day and night, day and night. So do not be misled by this illusion as others are being. Stick to Kṛṣṇa to save. That is the only... Is Stockholm also like that? Mādhavānanda: Yes. Who is from Stockholm? This is what I heard. Prabhupāda: Stockholm also like that? Haṁsadūta: In the winter months there is only a few hours, a few hours' sunlight. Then it goes down. Prabhupāda: Three hours. Haṁsadūta: Yeah, in the winter, it is very, very, long winter. Devotee (2): The same thing in the summer. Some days the sun is shining all day and night. Prabhupāda: In Sweden? Devotee (2): Yes. Midsummer night. Prabhupāda: There is no night, only day? Mādhavānanda: Right. Prabhupāda: I have seen in Moscow. Practically, the night begins at half past eleven, and again morning, half past three or four. That I have seen in the month of June. Night begins at half past eleven. I have seen when the night... That is also not full night. It is not full night. So in this way, after few hours... So half past eleven to half past three, how many hours? Three hours. Haṁsadūta: Three hours, four hours. Prabhupāda: Three hours, I think. No? Mādhavānanda: Four hours. Prabhupāda: Four hours. Again daytime. That I have seen. Haṁsadūta: And in the winter it is just the opposite, always dark and a few hours day. Prabhupāda: It is winter, at the same time dark. How happy life, just see. Advanced civilization. No light and winter. And still, they are happy. (laughs) Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that to stop this transmigration, one has to become completely disgusted with this material world. Prabhupāda: Yes, unless..., how he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? If he takes as a fashion, that is another thing. Just like the man who cannot tolerate commits suicide. Therefore you told me. Yes. One who is completely disgusted with this material life, he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Satsvarūpa: What about Lord Caitanya who prayed that "I don't mind coming back again and again"? Prabhupāda: That is devotee's sincerity, that he does not go to Kṛṣṇa for some material profit. Any condition, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is his humbleness. And a devotee, actual devotee, he doesn't want. But it happens. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti [Bg. 4.9]. It will take automatically. But he is not, I mean to say, very serious, that "I must go to Kṛṣṇa and be saved from these material miseries." A devotee never says like that. He wants that "Never mind miseries. Let me chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is his position. Satsvarūpa: For us, is the perfection to be absorbed in preaching to others? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Rather than thinking "I want to go and play with Kṛṣṇa"? *Prabhupāda: No. Your... Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That is Caitanya. Yes. Satsvarūpa: To everyone, tell them about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Not thinking, "Oh, when will I go to Kṛṣṇaloka?" Prabhupāda: No, it doesn't matter. You give him good advice. Just like a canvasser. He canvasses for selling some books or some... If does not sell, he is not a culprit. He has done his job. That is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee does not make any bargain with Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa will give me this benefit; *therefore I have become pure devotee." That is not devotee. Prahlāda Mahā... He is a merchant, "You give me this price. I will deliver this clothing." That is not devotion. Āśliṣya vā pāda*-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu māṁ marma-hatāṁ karotu vā: [Cc. Antya 20.47] "Any condition, I am your slave. Whatever You like, you can do with me." That is the sign, not that "If it is favorable to my idea, then I accept You." That is not devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11], no desire. Only desire: "Please accept me as Your eternal servant again." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā: "Now, if You like, You can kill me; if You like, You can keep me. Whatever You like, I am prepared." Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. That is surrender. [break] Similarly, if we live on the nature's way, there is no problem. The extra brain and intelligence which we have from the lower animals, we are utilizing for the same purpose, the animal life. That lady was saying, "Now we are advanced, so..." (car comes by) It is our car? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: There is a camp. [break] We can return now. (end) Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany Professor Durckheim: ...and to write books, and people came, and today we have there what you would call a little āśrama, mostly about fifty, sixty persons living there, coming, going, no patients, just people who try to discover their real self, nothing else. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That's our work we are trying to do. Prabhupāda: So Absolute Truth is realized in three aspect. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Some realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, others realize the Absolute Truth as localized Paramātmā, situated in everyone's heart, and the final realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we are cultivating the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. So which aspect you are cultivating, the Paramātmā or the impersonal Brahman or the Personality of Godhead? Professor Durckheim: You can't help cultivate all three in the long run. *Prabhupāda: No, all three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain*-somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place, everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India or everywhere, some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness. Professor Durckheim: As Buddhists do. Prabhupāda: Buddhists, they, I think, they... Yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa. Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization, to become zero. Is it not that? Professor Durckheim: To become? I didn't understand. Prabhupāda: Zero. Professor Durckheim: Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of the alter ego, but this zero is everything from the outside. From the point of view of the natural ego it's zero, but once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. But it's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety, and some, localized Paramātmā, and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man. First of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating is healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa, negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong? Professor Durckheim: You are certainly right. We see the... It is a big... In our work, as I see it, to realize that what from one point of view seems too bad, bad, for instance, illness or dying, what the natural ego does not like, if you goes through, it's also the threshold to quite a different reality. Prabhupāda: Yes, different it is. The same example, as I gave you: In diseased condition the reality is something, and healthy condition, the reality is something else. But if we compare the reality of healthy life with the realities of diseased life, that will be a misconception. Professor Durckheim: The dead, person who is dead. *Prabhupāda: We take this body*-dead always. This body is actually dead. Just like this microphone is made of iron. It is iron. When it is working, responding, at that time also it is iron. And when it is out of order, does not work, it is also iron. Similarly, this body is working on account of the living force within. When the living force is out, it is called dead. But actually it is dead always. The living force is the important thing. That is making him alive. Actually alive or dead, it is dead matter. But the living force is the active principle. That is distinguishing this body as dead or alive. But factually it is dead always. That is the beginning of instruction, Bhagavad-gītā: "Arjuna, you are lamenting for this body, but the body is dead." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg. 2.11]. So unless we know that... (aside:) Don't make "cut-cut." The dead body is not the subject matter of study either it is in working order or it is in dead order. The subject matter of study is the active principle which makes the dead body moving. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Read that portion. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: What is your opinion about this? Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter that makes matter alive? Prabhupāda: That active principle, life, or living soul. Professor Durckheim: Yes, how do you teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel? Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be: "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā. First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is unaware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy. Professor Durckheim: No, that's quite clear. *Prabhupāda: Anyone can understand. So our students are taught on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā that the body is always dead. The body is simply just like a machine, a big machine. This machine, it is dead, but as soon as I push the button it works. Similarly, the body is dead, but within the body, the life or the active principle, so long it is there, it is responding. Just like we are talking. I am asking my student, "Come here." He comes. But as soon as the active principle is out, I will ask him for thousands of years, "Come here"*-he will not come. It is very simple to distinguish. Now, what is that active principle, that is a separate subject matter to understand. And that is the beginning of spiritual knowledge. This is our learning. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? It is quite clear for our rational mind, I can understand there is a dead body, and there must be something in him, enough to make it alive. Now, the conclusion, I say there are two things, that my question was how he becomes aware in himself as an experience, not as conclusion, because I realize that on the inner way it becomes important more and more to feel deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper realities. That's why in my little work I make a distinction between the body you have and the body you are. The English language says, talks about "somebody" and "something." "Somebody" means a person. So the body you are. It's the whole of the gestures wherein you express and you present and you miss or you realize your real self. So the body you are. Usually if you go to a doctor he sees only the body you have. He tackles it like a machine. If somebody with shoulders like this, he says, "Well, you must make exercises." If somebody comes to me with shoulders like this, I say, "The body you are, you have no confidence in life. So get an attitude of confidence." So he gets to know the body he is, not only the body he has, which doesn't at all touch at your wisdom. *Prabhupāda: No, as I say, the active principle, I am also the active principle. As I say, the dead body and the living body, difference is, when the active principle is not there, it is dead body. Similarly, I am also the active principle. So 'ham, so 'ham: "I am the same active principle." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this material body." That is self*-realization. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: [Bg. 18.54] "When one is self-realized, then he is jolly." Prasannātmā. He is never morose. He is jolly. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati: "He has no lamentation, no hankering." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: "He is equal to everyone, man, animal and everything." And mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām: [Bg. 18.54] "Then devotional life begins." So without self-realization, there is no question of devotional life. Or those who are engaged in devotional service, they are all... Just like these boys, my students, they are trained up how to be always in devotional service. So one who is engaged in devotional service, he is supposed to be already self-realized. Because he has understood "what I am," yes. And then he sticks to devotional service. Otherwise, he cannot. If one thinks, "I am this body," then he cannot be engaged in devotional service, or he cannot stick. He knows that "I am part and parcel of God. So my duty is to serve God." This is self-realization. And then he engages himself in devotional service. Professor Durckheim: I say, master, that when you say he knows, you don't speak about this knowledge. Prabhupāda: Which knowledge? Professor Durckheim: You came already... You say "believe and by this know that I am participating in the great divine person." And yet I didn't experience it. *Prabhupāda: Why not experience? He knows that "I am that active principle." Everyone knows that "I am not this body." When I say, "This is my finger," I don't say, "I finger." So "I," what "I"? That realization, self*-realization, that "I am part and parcel of God." So that he knows, that "I am part and parcel of God. So therefore my duty is to serve God." So they are engaged in serving God. So this serving God, or devotional service, is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā... Find out that verse, that: Prabhupāda: This is our process. Professor Durckheim: A long way to get there. Prabhupāda: And the process is going on. The chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, by this process they fully realize that, the master, the Supreme Being, and engages himself always. These European, American boys, they are all educated. Not... In your country, of course, the young men... Professor Durckheim: They are educated too. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are always engaged in devotional service. So unless there is some realization, how they can engage their time in this way? [break] "You are human being. You can eat. I have given you fruits. I have given you vegetables. I have given you food grains. I have given you milk, very nutritious, palatable, containing all vitamin ABCD. And why should you kill animals? Why should you give trouble to the others?" This is self*-realization, that "Here is another self. The same active principle is working there. The body is different. Why shall I kill him?" So they have realized it. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Equal vision to all living entities, that the self, that active principle, is working in the fish, in the insect, within the tree, within the plant, within the animals, within the birds and within me. This is self-realization. That active principle is soul, and the soul is migrating from one body to another as you are migrating from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So the soul is the same. The body is different. The body is material and the soul is spiritual. When one comes to this understanding, that is self-realization. Professor Durckheim: May I put a question, master? On the way there should be progress, inner progress. How to realize that there is a progress? I would say one thing is very important. There are three sufferings in the world of mankind: fear of annihilation, despair if you are taken by something which is absurd, and loneliness, if you are alone. These three sufferings in the world for the natural being. I realize that you make a decisive step on your inner way when you feel life in the very moment when you have to die, when you feel the great meaning in the very moment when you are just having despair, and when you feel the great love of the person God exactly while you are a lonely in the world. And I have realized that we are now in a very decisive moment in the western world because for the first time in the history of mankind, the western people, in Europe and the States, start to take seriously certain experiences, inner experiences, where this truth is revealed. In all times, as far as I see, the great condition of the east, they knew about those experiences where death loses its terrifying character and becomes the threshold to some bigger life. And I always see with also my disciples, as soon as they learn to go through some kind of death, they awake on a new level. So I will say if people are in my place and after a week, they still sleep very well, then I have made a mistake. About that sleep, just to realize something in overcoming their usual needs, their usual fears, their usual habits, in order to touch inwardly another level, and then suddenly they realize there is some quite different principle at work as they see usually in their natural mind. Prabhupāda: So that different principle, for a devotee is already realized. Because a devotee never thinks of this body, that "I am this body." He thinks "I am...," ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul." So without that realization, there is no question of devotional life. So that is first understood. That instruction is being given by Kṛṣṇa to Arjuna, that "You are considering very seriously on this body, but a learned man does not take this body very seriously, either dead or alive." That is the first realization. So everyone in this world, they are concerned with this body, dead or alive. When alive, they take care of the body in so many ways, and when dead they erect big statue upon it. So that realization is this body. When it is alive, very nicely dressed, nicely groomed, nicely everything on account of this body, and when dead, then again the statue, the tomb, that's all, but missing the active principle. He is taking care of this body even after death by erecting very nice memorial, but he has no knowledge where the active principle has lost. That is ignorance. *Professor Durckheim: When I was a young man, I was four years in the World War. Forty*-eight months almost in the foremost front. And I was one of the two officers... Prabhupāda: In First World War? First World War? Professor Durckheim: World War I, 1914 to 1918. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I was one of the two officers who were not wounded in my regiment. And there I met death again and again. And I saw people just killed next to me. Suddenly it was out. It was just only as you say, the body without soul. But I realized also in myself, that when death was near and you had accepted death, accepted to die, then you realized something which has nothing to do whatsoever with death. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: So this marked me very much. It's the very beginning of my inner way, these four years of World War. *Prabhupāda: There is a verse. Nārāyaṇa*-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. If one is God realized soul, he is not afraid of anything. Svargāpavarga-narakeṣv api tulyārtha-darśinaḥ. So actually, if one is self-realized, he is no more fearful or concerned with the bodily necessities of life. That is liberation. Just like as you mentioned sleeping. Sleeping also, a bodily necessity. When you are tired, you sleep. That is bodily necessity. But it is not spiritually necessary. About the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau: ** "Conquered over sleeping, eating, mating." That is also one of the symptoms of self-realization. These things are necessities of the body. So the more one is advanced in self-realization, these things will be minimized: eating, sleeping, mating and defending. And gradually it will come to nil because this is bodily necessities. Self, the active principle, that is different. The active principle necessity is different. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. But these are bodily necessities: eating, sleeping, mating. So, so long this body is there, of course, we must eat, we must sleep. That is required. But the more we advance, these necessities diminished. Yes. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. Then sleeping will be considered a waste of time. A self-realized man goes to sleep. He thinks that "I am going to waste so much time, because still I am subjected to the necessities of this body." He regrets. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a sequence of experiences, isn't it, of inner experiences? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Professor Durckheim: The progress of self*-realization is a progress of inner experiences. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And I do believe that at the actual moment still, the treasure in the European peoples, the different peoples, who went through the war, through concentration camps, through battlefields and bombing nights, are hidden in their hearts certain moments when death was near and they were wounded and nearly torn in pieces. Because they had a certain experience they survived. And again and again, when I give a lecture, I have two or three people, waiting, telling me, "Now you just reminded me an experience long ago, ten days ago, two months ago, when I thought I was a little bit crazy, and now I understand it has been the experience, perhaps the most important of my life, on which I should have built my future inner way." And these experiences are still there. And once people understand, they don't need a war and a battleship and a concentration camp and a bombing night to take serious certain inner experiences when they are suddenly are touched by this divine reality, and they suddenly feel that this bodily existence is not lasting at all. Prabhupāda: That's it. That we can experience every night. Professor Durckheim: Yes, exactly. *Prabhupāda: When we dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my, this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such and such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually I am different from the mind. And that is self*-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ [Bg. 3.42]. Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ. That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: This is description. Professor Durckheim: May I put a question to the question of time, the meaning of time? I think there are two ways to look at time and to look at eternity. Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. Time is eternal, but we calculate time, past and present and future, according to my temporary material existence. Just like a small ant. The ant's past and present is different from my past and present. I am a human being. I live for hundred years. So my past and present is different from the ant who lives for, say, a few hours. Professor Durckheim: Is different from? Prabhupāda: From the ant, a small living entity. And similarly, Brahmā, his past, present, is different because he has done millions and millions of years as one day. So the time is eternal, but according to our condition, occupying the time and space, we calculate past and present and future. Otherwise time itself is eternal. Professor Durckheim: Well, now I question you. You see, talking about eternity, there are two meanings or concepts at the same time. The one is that the finite life is going on infinitely, infinity, millions of years. That is one way to think about eternity. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: But there is another one. Prabhupāda: Eternity means, we say, no beginning no end. That is eternity. Professor Durckheim: Isn't there also this other one, when, for instance, Christ says, "I am before Abraham was," this "I am." There is one kind of eternity which has nothing to do with past and future at all, which is beyond past and future. Prabhupāda: Past and future is concerned with this body. Professor Durckheim: Is concerned with this body. It is concerned, exactly, with this body and with this ego, with regard to which there is a before and an after, up and down. And if you take away this ego, what's there, what's left? *Prabhupāda: That is pure ego. Now I am born Indian, say, seventy*-five years ago, or seventy-eight years ago, and I have got this Indian body, I have got this false ego that "I am Indian; I am this body." This is misconception. Professor Durckheim: That is one way to look at time. Prabhupāda: Time is there, but because I have got this temporary body, I am thinking past, present, future. The temporary body will vanish. I shall get another temporary body. Then again my begins past and present. So therefore this is called illusion. Time is eternal. It has no beginning, no end, but we transmigrate from one body to another. We are calculating, miscalculating, past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: Yes, time has no beginning and no end. But time in this second sense has nothing to do with beginning and end. Prabhupāda: It has no end, beginning, no end. The beginning and end is of this body. And in relationship with this body, we are calculating past, present, future. Professor Durckheim: But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body. Prabhupāda: I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience, has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become... *Prabhupāda: No. Pure consciousness is actually you are. Just like water. Water is pure. When it is comes from the sky, it is clear crystal water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes muddy. Similarly, we soul, spirit soul, we are pure. As soon as we come in contact with this matter, material existence, we become impure. And there are three stages of impurity: goodness, passion and ignorance. So all of them are impure. Unless one comes to the spiritual consciousness-he may be a very nice man*-he is infected with the impurity of goodness. He is thinking, "I am very big man, I am very..." That is also impurity. And another man does not know what he is, just like animal, all the animals. That is also impurity. When both of them will come to the clear consciousness that "I am part and parcel of God; *my duty is to serve God," that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long he identifies with this material consciousness, he is impure. Just like people are fighting: "I am German," "I am Englishman," "I am this," "I am that," "I am black," "I am white," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am śūdra"*-so many, designations. These designations are impurity. Just like sometimes the artists, they manufacture some statue naked. In France I saw, naked. They take it this naked statue is pure art, not dressed. Similarly, when you come to the nakedness of spirit soul without this designation of this body, "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," that is purity. Professor Durckheim: But the meaning of the impure is to be the background of the consciousness of the pure without any experiencing the suffering in the impure. Prabhupāda: The consciousness is covered by impurity, just like your health is covered by disease, and the symptom is fever. But that is a covering. That is not your healthy state. Similarly, my consciousness, when I think that "I am American," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," that is impurity. And when he thinks that "I am neither German, neither American, nor this nor that. I am part and parcel of God," that is pure consciousness. Professor Durckheim: But in order to get there, to feel that one is neither this nor that, one must have suffered by first having thought that one is this or that. Prabhupāda: That suffering is just like you suffer in the dream. You are attacked by a tiger. There is no tiger. Actually there is no suffering. But on account of ignorance, you are thinking, "The tiger is eating me." Professor Durckheim: Yes, but this is a very good example because the dream of the tiger comes very often. And it always means that you are pursued by some of your inner instincts, yourself. So you discover in the image of the tiger something which is not right in yourself. Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience is also material. That is not spiritual experience. That experience is going on continually so long we are materially attached. Because in the material world we are constantly changing our body. Your experience in childhood is different from the experience at this time. So as we are changing our body, we are getting different experiences, and all those experiences are photographed within the mind. And they sometimes come out and make an intermixture, and we see dreams and so many contradictory things. This is going on, mental speculation. That is hovering on the mental plane. That is not spiritual plane. That, it is stated, Devotee: I was cut. Prabhupāda: How? Devotee: I was in an automobile accident. Prabhupāda: Oh. Haṁsadūta: But he's all right. Prabhupāda: Others also? Haṁsadūta: No. It's just a cut. *Prabhupāda: So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to the real consciousness. That real consciousness is that "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight, because you designated yourself that "I am German." This is an example, that "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So he was thinking in terms of designations, that "I am... I belong to the same family. The other side, they are my cousin*-brothers. They belong to the same family. So why shall I fight? Let them enjoy." From material point of view it is very good man. But Kṛṣṇa condemned him. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān: [Bg. 2.11] "You are talking very high words, but you are fool number one." That is the first, because he was talking on the platform of this bodily concept of life. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, when he understood that "I am not this body; *I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. My duty is to obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa," then he fought. Superficially, he remained the same soldier. But in the beginning he was a soldier for his designation of this body, and later on, he became a soldier to carry out the order of the Supreme. That is the difference. So when we act to carry out the orders of the Supreme, that is self*-realization, not for this body. *Professor Durckheim: There is only one way toward peace, through self*-realization of those who are responsible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Self*-realization, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that one should understand that "I am not enjoyer. Nobody is enjoyer." That is false. They are trying, endeavor, for enjoying this world, and that is false. Real enjoyer is the Supreme Lord. We are trying to occupy this land, that land. "This is Germany. This is England. This is France. This is India. This is my land, worshipable. Land is worshipable. It is my land." But he should know that no land belongs to us. Everything belongs to God. And this is a fact. The land is not created by us. The ocean is not created by us. Then why should we claim, "This is German ocean, and this is English ocean"? This is all false imagination. So when it comes to this understanding, that "Nothing belongs to us..." The United Nations, they are fighting for the last twenty years, but they are fighting on the false ground because everyone is thinking, "This land is mine. I must protect it." So they have no self-realization, and there is no peace. *Professor Durckheim: As soon two, two men who are realized, there is no war. There is a very wonderful story. When the Emperor of Japan took over the leadership again after having been for six hundred years only the High Priest. Now he wanted to be again the emperor. And he was submitting one dainu (?) after the other one. Only one resisted in Tokyo. General of Tokyo did not submit to the emperor and didn't allow anybody to come in to negotiate. So the emperor was very troubled. He said, "Should I burn down Tokyo? I wouldn't like to do it." And then his young sword (?) master asked him*-he was a realized man-"Do you permit me to just ride in this town and see the great general?" And he said, "Yes, you know the guards do not permit." "Let me do." He sat on horseback and just rode through. The guards, like this, let him pass. He announced himself to the great general. General said, "Yes, with him I am going to talk." And the general himself, being a self-realized man said, "Well, all right." In twenty minutes things were in order, and they submitted gently, and without a single shot, peace was established. Because two men of a high level of self-realization met. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is our point, that if we understand, every one of us realize that we are all servant of God or sons of God, that everything belongs to God, so we can use our father's property for our maintenance as much as we require, not more than that, so if we think like that, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and there will be no more war, everything peaceful. Professor Durckheim: In my work I always feel the great difficulty again and again. That is also there. It's a great difference to believe that you are the son of God and to feel it and to experience it. As long it's only a belief, it's well meaning doing. How to prepare the conditions by which disciples might feel it? That's all of my daily work. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like... It is very simple thing. Just like if I say... Suppose you have not seen your father. You are posthumous child. But you must believe that there is father. Without father there is no possibility of my existence. That is belief. And in the Christian... Professor Durckheim: Experience it. *Prabhupāda: This is experience. The Christian people, they go to church: "O God, give us our daily... Father, give us our daily bread." So there is the supreme Father. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out this, Professor Durckheim: There is one difficulty in the western part of the world which might not be so great in the eastern part. I realize in Japan, when they talk about father and mother, especially also mother, it was all something to be loved, to be grateful, to submit. In our countries now, the father is generally the one who does not understand anymore his son, and the son has to get rid of his body father in order to be able to realize himself. So very often the main obstacle in our youth is the image of mother and father because they have never understood their children. So the word father for many people in western part of the world... Prabhupāda: Misunderstood. Professor Durckheim: Is something not very agreeable. It's all the authority like this, the not understanding, the not loving, the authority. You see? There are so many fathers who say in their family, "I don't know what you are talking about freedom. In my house everybody can do what I like." So they are very much under this spell today. So I just say this because it's very funny also in this trend of development of religion of today... Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is fact. It is not... Religion is sometimes explained as sentiment, but this is fact, that father and son... Without father there is no existence of son, and without son there is no meaning of father. This is science. This is not religion. This is science. As soon as you speak of father means he must have a son, or most. And as soon as a son, he must have a father. So this is a question of "must," not sentiment. Professor Durckheim: It is one of the great phrases of the Gospel of St. John which the church forgot, that Christ always says, "I am the son of God, and you are my brother. You are sons of God just as I am." *Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not agree now. Just see. Everyone is son. Now we say that... The Christians, so*-called Christians, are so ignorant, as soon as you say, "Everyone is son," they rebel, "No. Christ is the only son." And you say that Christ said that "I am the son, and you are also sons." This is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says that "All living entities are My sons." That is the fact. He is the supreme father. Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ. Read that śloka. Satsvarūpa: *Prabhupāda: Just see. Material nature is the mother. Material nature gives the body. But the soul is part and parcel of God. A soul is given, impregnated in the material nature, and they come out in so many species of life. How easily it is explained. So self*-realization we explain that samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, equality to all living entities. But because they have no spiritual knowledge, they think that humanitarian work means to give all facility to the human being and not to the animals. We are talking of nationalism. National means anyone who has taken birth in that land. That is the definition of nationalism. But they are taking care of the human being who has taken birth in that land, but poor animals, they are being slaughtered. This is their nationalism. So all, everything is going wrong account of wrong conception of life. And that wrong conception of life is that "I am this body." But when we understand that "I am not this body; *I am the active principle within this body," then this misconception will go out. That is the beginning of spiritual realization, or self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: And this understanding has to be an experience. *Prabhupāda: Yes, it is experienced, but on account of his foolishness he is thinking otherwise. He knows that "I am not this body. I am now in this body of old man, but I was not in this body, say, fifty years ago. Therefore I am not this body, that body or this body. I am different from the body." This is very easy experience. I am existing. I understand that I existed in a baby's body. I existed in a child's body, boy's body. So I have now changed so many bodies. Therefore I am not this body. Just like you dress. You are now in black coat, and next moment you can be in other color. But you are not this coat. You have changed the coat. Similarly, I have changed the body, but I am not this body. This is self*-realization. First of all let me know that "I am not this body; *I am living within this body." You are not this coat. If I ask you, "Mr. Blackcoat," that is my foolishness. You are neither black coat or white coat. And that is self*-realization. Professor Durckheim: And yet isn't there difficulty. You can already have understood very well that you are not the body, but as long, for instance, as you have still fear of death, you didn't understand that experience. As soon as you understood by experience, you have no fear of death because you know that you can't die. Prabhupāda: So experience is received by higher knowledge. Experience means higher knowledge. Just like a child... Professor Durckheim: Experience means... Prabhupāda: Higher knowledge. Higher knowledge. Professor Durckheim: As soon as you have the experience, you get the higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the more you are highly elevated in knowledge, your experience is perfect. Professor Durckheim: I would like to say the other way around: As more as you advance in experience, the more you have higher knowledge. Prabhupāda: But experience, it may be slow. But higher knowledge you can get immediately. Professor Durckheim: Yes. Like flash. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Kṛṣṇa says... Professor Durckheim: When it's awakening. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says that you are not this body. So instead of my experiencing for years and years that "I am not this body," we take the knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect, and my experience is now received. Professor Durckheim: Yes, I understand. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru. That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Now, who is guru? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru, śrotriyam, who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru. Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru, he is not guru. This is called guru-paramparā, disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our... (aside:) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. So I am always inexperienced because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. he asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone?" That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge: You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be, not perfect. But because I get the knowledge from the perfect, my knowledge is perfect. This is our process. We are getting knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Or you get knowledge from Jesus Christ, that is also perfect, because source is perfect. I am taking knowledge from God and you are taking the knowledge from the son of God who has come directly from him, the same. So, but we have to receive knowledge from the perfect, not by ascending process, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, experiencing failure, not like that. That will take long time. But if you actually want to be perfect, just approach the perfect, take knowledge from him and you become perfect. That is the injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. This is... Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Find out this verse, Fourth Chapter. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: That's it. Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, that's it. But I realize that since about twenty, thirty years there is a big awakening in the western part of the world. Science and the technique coming out of science, which was invented to liberate the human being, right do exactly the contrary. People become more and more slaves of that organization which they created for their freedom. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Professor Durckheim: You see? And today we realize the only thing, the only possibility not to be crushed, is to adapt themselves to the technical world, and in adapting themselves to the technical world, they become themselves little wheels of the big machine and stop to be human beings. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: Now this is going so far today that now suddenly something is awakening. They have said no. And this kind of rebellion in our western, as you know better than I do, in our western kind... And they say, "Well, after all..." You see, science, they say, "Whatever you are feeling here, it is only subjective. The only thing which counts are the objects." Now, today, mankind has awakened and said, "No, I am not subjected. I am a subject. I am a person. So you are quite right to eliminate me if you want to make an atomic bomb or I don't know what, a technical thing. But you want to guide me? You have to do away with scientist's spectacles and look at me with the eyes of the real self. Otherwise you won't see me." So this is the turning point today where we are. *Prabhupāda: Yes. But this is explained in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam five thousand years ago. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: [SB 7.5.31] "These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life." Professor Durckheim: No, nothing. *Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. Their aim of life is God realization, but they do not know that. And why they do not know that? Bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are thinking by these external features of the material nature they will be happy." That is very quite visible in the western countries. They are thinking that by constructing big, big, high skyscraper building their civilization is advancing, or machine, or technology. But they do not know this is not the aim of life. Real aim of life*-to understand God. And na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā [SB 7.5.31]. Durāśayā means something, utopian hope, which will be never fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā. That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha. The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the... Professor Durckheim: They won't move at all. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore they are being frustrated. Professor Durckheim: There is a change today. The other day, a little while ago, I gave a conference. There were about a thousand doctors, physical medical doctors and psychotherapists assembled, and I told them, "Today be careful. There are two sufferings in the world. The one suffering is suffering because of lack of being efficient in the world. And they are going to look for the medical doctor or the psychotherapist in order to repair them, to repair their machine in order to be efficient. But there is another suffering, the suffering of not being one with the divine self in ourselves. And this is something quite different. Then you doctors have to be quiet and to discover in yourself something like a guru who answers this question which has nothing to do with efficiency in the world." Oh, they were very, you see, became nervous about this question. Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end... Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna, or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into... Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than, lower animals, birds, beast, and other, they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating. Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being. We are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have not even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die. Then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense. And they are leading the sinful life; *still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars, war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only... Without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb, and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living: "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: [Īśo mantra 1] "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cowdung, we have stacked here. I have seen. There also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. In Buddhism there is no animal killing. Although they are now killing animals, but originally Buddha religion means non*-violence. Also Lord Christ also said, "Thou shalt not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says, ahiṁsā. So in no religion unnecessary killing of animals is allowed. Even in Mohammedans, they are also... Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the Mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted. Professor Durckheim: May I put one question to this? How do we know that the plant, the flowers and so on do not suffer when we take them away? Prabhupāda: No, they have also sensation. They have sensation when you pluck it. That is proved by scientists, Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose. The trees have got sensation. Professor Durckheim: So that's what I mean. So if we kill plant or tree... Prabhupāda: No, we don't kill. You take the fruits. Professor Durckheim: We cut it. Prabhupāda: Yes, cutting is not allowed unless it is absolutely necessary. Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra. Haṁsadūta: There are many guests downstairs, some professors. We were wondering if you would like to lecture this evening. Prabhupāda: No, let them come here. [break] We are publishing all these books, what is spoken by Kṛṣṇa or His representative. We don't speculate, because already there is so much profound knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa and His representative. There is no necessity of researching. If we simply take advantage of things which are already there, we become perfect. I have published about fourteen books like this. Professor Durckheim: Incredible, incredible. What a thing! Prabhupāda: You can put this side. German devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Zara (?). He is the leader for the society of yoga and integral philosophical studies in Germany. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment, not at the present moment, always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is... [break] ...then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. (aside:) That is one. You serve it out. So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one, to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozen. But our only writing is the goal of life, Kṛṣṇa. Professor Durckheim: May I come back once to my question, master, the relationship between belief and experience, because this is a great question for us today, especially also in the religious circles, and theologians, the priests and the monks. Prabhupāda: No, believe the authority. That is the... That is better than experience. Professor Durckheim: Yes. That is what in our country is... I have very much to do with people who are living in monasteries or churches and so on. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Please come here so that he'll not be disturbed. You come here. Belief... Professor Durckheim: They realize that now belief which is not faith has to be, well, renewed by real experiences. And, you see, we have so many priests today who say they can't pray anymore. They lost the connection because of so much formalism and so much traditional beliefs. And they are looking for a new source and new beginning in their hearts, and they don't believe what you tell them. They just want to feel it, to experience it. And there is a big change today in this direction, and there is a..., big movements. You see all these trends today to learn meditation. It's only one longing to feel something and not only to believe. That is the situation now very much in Germany, isn't it so? Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that, first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas, that is perfect. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge... Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. So that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas, just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question, master. You see, the belief, the understanding, is always depending on the level of the one who wants to understand, and that's the level of our quite natural, normal mind of the usual general person. And there is another level where certain experiences open the door to some deeper consciousness. And, as you know, one of the key words of the Christian religion is in the Gospels, that you have to turn around, to make annoya (?), to pierce through a certain skin to get quite another level. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: And from this level the heaven opens to those who didn't understand what the heaven means. They thought it was behind the clouds. You see, there is a natural way to look at God, and this natural way to look at God is lost as soon as people go through the rational mind. And then there is no other way out but to have a personal initiated experience. We talk about initiation. When people are capable to go through a certain death and to discover another level, and only... And so, the great wisdom which you are talking about, I am sure that it also touches people on two levels. There is the ordinary man and he might believe, but there is a deeper level where things start to change yourself, to transform yourself in deeper experiences. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... That is the beginning of instruction in the Bhagavad*-gītā. The beginning of knowledge... German Lady: Excuse me. Would you please explain for some people who don't speak English here in German because we don't know all of your words. Professor Durckheim: Yes, but I didn't want to interrupt the master. Prabhupāda: No. I have no objection if somebody translates into German. Haṁsadūta: Vedavyāsa can translate. (German) Professor Durckheim: Do you permit me to repeat it in German? For those who are present here? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (German) [break] So Kṛṣṇa begins the first understanding, *Satsvarūpa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: And now... Haṁsadūta: Translate. *Prabhupāda: Yes, translate. (German) This is the basic principle of knowledge, that "I am not this body. I am the active principle within this body." Then further knowledge can be understood. This is the beginning of knowledge, that "I am not this..." At the present moment everything... That I was explaining to the professor, that we are accepting this body as self, and self*-interest means this bodily interest. Explain this. (German) So the whole trouble is on the platform of this misconception that "I am this body." Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins from this platform what is knowledge. First of all one must know that "I am not this body." When he understands this basic principle of knowledge, then further knowledge can be advanced. That is explained very nicely step by step in this book Bhagavad-gītā. Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? If you give us this wisdom, don't you meet now in the western world an opposition from the Christian side where the key word that this faith becomes a body, this faith becomes flesh. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We accept it. Professor Durckheim: The incarnation. How do you understand incarnation? (German) Prabhupāda: Now, this question, that spirit develops the skin, you said? Professor Durckheim: Spirit? You see I have very often... I saw the difference. Haṁsadūta: The spirit becomes flesh. Professor Durckheim: The spirit becomes flesh. Prabhupāda: That's it. So this we can experience, that as soon as the spirit is entered into the womb of the mother, they develops skin and the child develops body. So this is very practical, that first of all, not that simply by sexual intercourse a child is born. Then every the time sexual intercourse would have caused pregnancy. No. Unless the spirit soul is there, there is no question of developing body. Therefore it is natural that the spirit soul creates this flesh and bone and other things and develops into body. There is no difficulty to understand. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, but I think the professor was asking how in our time in the case of a word, as far as spirit becoming flesh, not in the face of an ordinary child. I think I have understood your point? Professor Durckheim: Yes, in principle. You see sometimes, it seems to me, I might be wrong, that there is one difference between Eastern wisdom and Christian way to think that whereas in the Eastern way, we have to become rid of our body, to be liberate from our body, whereas Christian sense means to realize the spirit within the body. (German) Prabhupāda: Now, what is our suffering? Professor Durckheim: I am sure it can be reconciled, but I am interested to know how do you see this question. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That everyone can understand. It is very easy. Now, just like we have already heard from Bhagavad*-gītā that I am the spirit, I am within this body. So my sufferings are on account of this body. This is a fact. Because I have entered into this body, material body, there are my sufferings. Therefore my business should be how to get out of this body. Is it clear or not? Professor Durckheim: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So this incarnation means I am spirit soul, I have entered this body. Now I can, next life I can enter into another body. It may be dog's body, it may be cat's body or it may be king's body. So the standard of suffering is there either in the king's body or in the dog's body. And the standard of sufferings is enunciated, birth, death, old age and disease. These are our sufferings. So in order to get out of these four kinds of sufferings*-there are many kinds; *these are the main kinds*-we have to get out of this body. That is the problem. Professor Durckheim: Through many lives... Prabhupāda: Many life or this life. In this life you understand that "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately. Professor Durckheim: May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No. Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. (German) Lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christians? Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians who also certainly want to become independent from this body which wants material life only. Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or... Knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge... Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Mohammedan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge; we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process. (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: (translating) ...stress on this point that we are existing in a body but we should accept our existence as human being. Prabhupāda: Existence as human being, you want. So do you think human being is existing in this body is perfect? (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I don't say it is perfect. (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says yes, he accepts our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the idea should be how to become perfect. (German) Vedavyāsa: (Vedavyāsa is translating from here on) So he asks, "How to become perfect, as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit. Prabhupāda: Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? (German) You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? (German) Vedavyāsa: So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people. Prabhupāda: So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk: "Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu." (German) Vedavyāsa: He thinks there's a great difference between the talking of birds and bees and our talking. Prabhupāda: Why difference? They are talking in their community, you are talking in your community. (German) *Haṁsadūta: No, he has said a very good point. He said there is a difference because an animal has no self*-consciousness. He does not understand what he is in essence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real point. That is the real point, that you can try to understand what you are. The birds and beasts, they cannot understand. That is the difference. So our human effort should be utilized for that realization, not to act like birds and beasts. (German) Therefore the Brahma*-sūtra, Vedānta-sūtra, instructs in the beginning, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "This life is meant for inquiring about the supreme spirit or Absolute Truth." That is the aim of this life, not like birds and beasts, simply talking and eating and sleeping, but extra responsibility, extra intelligence is there to understand the Absolute Truth. You take the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, first part, yes. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Satsvarūpa: It's not here. First part is not here. *Prabhupāda: No. First of all find out from the index this verse. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. *Prabhupāda: Kāmasya nendriya*-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā yaś... Kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ [SB 1.2.10]. Have you found? Satsvarūpa: Chapter Two, verse 10. But the verse is not here. It is in the first volume. Devotee: Some is bringing. Prabhupāda: So he has gone? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says, "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (German) Read this verse. *Prabhupāda: Te, what is that? Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā, inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being. Professor Durckheim: Now may I put a question? Just I think there is one way to reconcile. This was given just now as a Christian view or of the other side, as far as the body is concerned, because I think there are three consciousness, conscience of body. The one looks only at health, the second one only of beauty, but the third one we are never talking about has to look to transparence of our body consciousness, to become transparent in a way that in our body and through our body we might look for the Absolute Truth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That this goes together. (German) Prabhupāda: Yes. So the thing is that if my life is based on false conception that "I am this body," so the bodily appreciation of beauty or any other thing, that is also false. That is also false. If I am not this body, then anything conceived in relation with this body, that is false. (German) Vedavyāsa: He says that usually we see the body in connection with beauty or health. But there is another possibility, to use the body as a transparent medium to conceive the Absolute Truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained here. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā. That means with this body you should not waste your time like the birds and beasts but utilize it for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. That is reality. (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only to the Absolute Truth, but to communicate together. Think of the smiling of a child, its first communication between man. It's not only the body as instrument for the eternal truth but under, among us. Prabhupāda: So that you have to learn, how with this body you can utilize your energy to understand the Absolute Truth and reestablish your relationship with the Absolute Truth. (German) Vedavyāsa: He says it's a waste of our energy if we try to do good for others, if we smile and be kind... Prabhupāda: But you cannot do good to others because you do not know what is good. (German) Prabhupāda: You are thinking of good in terms of your body, but body is false. Therefore the conception of goodness is also false. (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: I cannot accept that the body is false. Prabhupāda: No, no. I withdraw that word false. But it is not you. It is false in this sense, that you are accepting this body yourself, but that you are not. (German) Just like... Dr. P. J. Saher: But I live my identity with the body. *Prabhupāda: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. You are simply... Just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment. I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. (German) If I simply decorate this body, apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the... This is false attempt, that we are trying... This is called. In the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka*-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing, so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: ...example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because he says... Prabhupāda: But because he does not know that he is not this body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but he says because if we go out of the room, the room remains as it is, but if we go out of the body, the body doesn't remain. So he says there must be an intimate connection between the soul and the body. Prabhupāda: No, remains means in the same way. Just like if I leave this room and it remains here, in a few years time it will be destroyed. Similarly, if you leave this body, in a few hours... It is a question of hours and years. (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: ...saying that this body is, the soul is eminent. Prabhupāda: The soul is different from the body. Vedavyāsa: Yes, but at the same time, he says there must be a very intimate connection of, actually a oneness of body and soul. That is what is now. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dr. P. J. Saher: As long as we are alive. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not oneness. Just like this room is important so long I am living. Otherwise it has no importance. (German) [break] ...soul is gone from the body, even the body is very dear, I throw it away. (German) Vedavyāsa: He doesn't want to separate. Prabhupāda: But you must separate. (laughter) As soon as your death comes, your body will be kicked out by your relatives. Professor Durckheim: I think the difference is now just one, that Sir Fox (?) spoke about our lifetime, that during our lifetime there is an intimate unity between life and soul, as we experience it, and he now has no doubt that the soul is something different of the body, and when soul goes out, there is no life anymore. Prof. Pater Porsch (Indian man): May I please add one thing. Perhaps it makes a difference if the person thinks "I am the spirit. I have a body." or he thinks, "I am a body, and I possess a soul." That is an important point. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is his mistake, that he is body and he possesses soul. But not that. He is soul; *he is covered by this body. Another example. Just like your coat. So long you use it, it is important. And if you don't use it, it has no importance. But if he takes coat is very important... Important, it is important, so long you use it. But if you don't use it-it is torn*-you throw it away. You take another coat. (German) Prof. Pater Porsch: Can we not also say that self and not self must separate, either in death involuntarily, or through destiny. Prabhupāda: Must separate, must separate. Prof. Pater Porsch: Either through death or destiny. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called death. You separate from this body; you accept another body. This period is called death. (German) So the body which you occupied previously, that is false now. Now the body which you have occupied now, that is important now. So you are giving stress on the body which I am changing after few years. That is the problem, misunderstanding. Professor Durckheim: I think it would be important for us all to know what you would say to the question, "How to realize the last truth, and what do you mean by realize the eternal truth?" Dr. P. J. Saher: (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: He said that in the Bible it is said that our aim should be to know the father. Dr. P. J. Saher: Not only the aim but the life consists in this, to know the father, God, by this... (indistinct) Professor Durckheim: That is exactly what you say, that real life, real eternal life, means nothing but to recognize the father in the son. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is real business. And we have created so many unnecessary, superfluous business. We have set aside the real business, to know the father. And that is the mistake of this civilization. (German) [break] Haṁsadūta: Professor Durckheim's question was: "Very simply, what is our way or what is our method to realize the highest truth, the absolute truth?" What is our process? *Prabhupāda: The simplest method is to associate with the Father, or the Absolute Truth. By association. This association can be possible. God, His name, His form, His pastimes, His abode, His paraphernalia, everything is God, because absolute. First of all you should understand this Absolute Truth. Just like here in the relative world the name of a person is different from the person. But in the absolute world the name and the person the same. So we are teaching or preaching this, that you chant the holy name of God, you associate immediately with God. And if you associate immediately with God then gradually you become Godly. The example is, just like you put one iron rod in the fire it becomes warm, warmer, warmer and, at last, red*-hot. When it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod, it is fire. Similarly, if you simply associate with God then gradually you become Godly or or all the qualities of God. Then you understand God and your life becomes perfect. (German) [break] Professor Durckheim: ...holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Of God. *Prabhupāda: If you don't like to chant Kṛṣṇa you chant in your own way. Chant the name of God. If you know the name of God chant it. If you do not know then take it from me. (laughter) We are recommending to chant the holy name of God. If you know, you chant that name and if you don't know then take it from me. (German) [break] ...explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that God has many thousands of names or God has no name. No name means He has, He has got so many thousands of millions of names that you cannot say, "This is only God's name." This is one sense. But how God names are understood? The God names are understood by His action. Just like we say Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. God is all-attractive. God is attractive for the Hindus, for the Muslim, for the Christians, for everyone. Therefore, being all-attractive, there's a Sanskrit word of all-attraction, Kṛṣṇa. This is the explanation of the attribute of God. Similarly, if you've got similar name which explains the attributes of God, that is also God's name. (German) I think Lord Jesus Christ said "God, hallowed be Thy name." Satsvarūpa: The Lord's Prayer: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be They name." Prabhupāda: So He has name. You find out what is His name and chant it. And if you do not know, then take it from us. That is all. He has name. He has name. He's not without name. (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: He says from the Old Testament that Jesus said, "Hallowed be Thy name," so he didn't say a particular name because, he says, God has actually no name because if we... Prabhupāda: So how He can be no name? He says, "Hallowed be Thy name." He has name. Therefore he says like that. Vedavyāsa: But there's no name in the Bible... Prabhupāda: That doesn't mean... He might not have mentioned or you have not noted. But when he says, "Hallowed be Thy name," there must be the name. Therefore I said if you don't know the name, you take it from us. That is intelligence. Why should you say that there is no name. He says the "Hallowed be Thy name." There must be name but you do not know. (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: He thinks that it's purposely done not to say the name of God, to... Prabhupāda: Because there is name, you find out. Vedavyāsa: He said that when it says, "Hallowed be Thy name," it's meant in this way: that there's no mention of a particular name to be respected... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So that we say that God has no particular name. But according to His action His name is there. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is not the name. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractiveness. Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name. Prabhupāda: Hm. Because He's man of knowledge, therefore He's called Buddha. Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached... Prabhupāda: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge. Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody, yes. Prabhupāda: Just like you say, "Hallowed be Thy name." President. President. Now the president has a name but you do not know. But the president must have a name. (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: Has the name a special esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name, has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened... Prabhupāda: No, not hidden but open because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute you become purified. Dr. P. J. Saher: Like iron in fire. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's right. (German) [break] ...Vedic injunction: Dr. P. J. Saher: Will you please be so kind as to further elucidate your technique of that one chants the name of God and will you please be so kind as to elucidate further in some particular way or what comes (German) what should be done in relation to that or how it is, how it is formulated in that, in that total, in that complete system of your reverent teachings? *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the bhakti*-mārga, means, the first thing is śravaṇam, hearing. Just like these books are being written to give chance people to hear. That is first business. If we don't hear about God we simply imagine something. No. We must hear about God. We are publishing eighty books like this, simply to hear about God. Then when you hear perfectly then you can describe to others. That is called kīrtanam. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam. And when the process goes on hearing and chanting or describing, kīrtanam means describing. Just like our, this whole society is hearing from these books and they're going out to describe. This is called kīrtana. Then by these two process, hearing and chanting, you remember, smaraṇam. That means remembering, you always associate with God. Dr. P. J. Saher: So at all times, "Remember Me." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda*-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Then worshiping the Deity, to offer flowers to the lotus feet of the Lord, to garland, to dress, pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanam, offer prayer, dāsyam, serve. In this way, there are nine different processes. Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German). *Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) [break] Kali*-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge. *Dr. P. J. Saher: Do you mean the Kali*-yuga exists all the time? *Prabhupāda: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed so many. Instead of making solution the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma*-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth is that from which, or from Whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Now you find out where is the... Everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim. That if you follow these philosophical quotes then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also athāto jijñāsā. Athāto jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear..." Should do it like this. That is one thing. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: ...was the always the desire of mankind to find (indistinct) he says the kings should be wise and the wise men should be kings. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedavyāsa: So he said that this was always the desire but... Prabhupāda: But thing is that this desire is there everywhere. But whose desire is standard? That should be understood. Everyone is desiring. But whose desire is to be followed? What is the actual, factual desire? That is to be understood. Unless you do not know what is the standard of desire, then this fighting will go on. You desire, I desire... (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: ...saying that knowledge is important also... Prabhupāda: No, no. Satsvarūpa: Yes. (German) Vedavyāsa: She says that we cannot have heaven on earth. Prabhupāda: Hm? Vedavyāsa: We cannot have heaven on earth simply by our desiring it. Prabhupāda: No. Just like there are intelligent class of men, they sit together. They do not fight. Still you can men... because the example is there. But that requires qualification. Therefore what is that qualification? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: That is the qualities of the highest intelligent class of men. So if you do not find such qualities, how his knowledge should be perfect? These are the qualities. (German) Vedavyāsa: He doubts that everyone is convinced about that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Vedavyāsa: He's doubting if we should convince them of that. *Prabhupāda: Well, who is not self*-controlled, he'll not be convinced because he'll think that he's rebellious, "I can do anything what I like. I can eat whatever I like." Now how he will like this idea of self-control? Professor Durckheim: But one question, you see. These virtues have been always asked for by Christian churches also, exactly the same. But then today we realize that the virtues are on one level with the vices. But there's something different. If you pass through the (indistinct) step you get somewhere, you see where we can understand, for instance, if Christ says "Let the dead bury their dead." A phrase like this appeals to a different level. So I think as long as you... Prabhupāda: No. It is not different level. The advice is given according to the time, person. So if people follow Lord Christ and, I mean to say, instruction that is also perfect. But they do not follow. Professor Durckheim: They do not... Prabhupāda: They do not follow. Professor Durckheim: Sure... *Prabhupāda: That's it. Otherwise either you follow Bhagavad*-gītā or Bible as they are, then you become gradually perfect. The difficulty is they do not follow. And still they're claiming "I am Christian." "I am Hindu." "I am this." "I am that." Rubber stamp. No qualification but rubber stamp. This is the defect. (German) [break] Vedavyāsa: ...qualifications on the material platform. Prabhupāda: First of all acquire this material qualification. Then talk of spiritual. (German) Just like I think in the university if one wants to learn about law he must be graduate first of all. Dr. P. J. Saher: In India. Yes. Prabhupāda: So you, first of all become graduate then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa. Then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa how you can understand? (German) [break] *Satsvarūpa: (reading from Bhagavad*-gītā) "...three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German) [break] Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never, but you never asked us who we are and who we should become (indistinct)." This is the problem. Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul. Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon. Prabhupāda: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German) Vedavyāsa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem. Prabhupāda: Hm? Vedavyāsa: He said that if you said that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now... Prabhupāda: Actual program, the actual program is there. (German) [break] *Vedavyāsa: : He's speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization. First of all... Prabhupāda: Hm? *Vedavyāsa: We are speaking of the gradual process of self*-realization, first adopting these brahminical qualities and going further and further. So he asks if he's missing, if it's not possible to become illuminated at once by God's grace, to become converted without undergoing these... *Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will do. Yes, you haven't got to undergo this or that. Simply chant and it will..., you'll become perfect. So easiest. But still they will not accept. That is the difficulty. When you give the easiest way they won't accept. Easiest way is we are recommending the chant the holy name of God. Do it. (German) Not that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. You have got your name of God, you chant that. Begin that. (German) [break] Then how can I help you? There is (indistinct). You do not know. So our recommendation is, not my recommendation, from the Vedic literature, authoritative recommendation and the Bhagavad*-gītā, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Everything is there. You begin. Therefore I said in this age so many things is impossible to be done. But you begin chanting the holy name of God. Where is the difficulty? Dr. P. J. Saher: To know the name, because I... Prabhupāda: To know. Why you are doubtful? There is name. If you do not know take it from us. (chuckling) Why you deny that? Dr. P. J. Saher: There's thousands and millions of... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Here is one name. Why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: No. I say millions of names. I'm looking for the name and... Prabhupāda: : Yes. But if I've given you the name why don't you take it? Dr. P. J. Saher: Because I'm not convinced that is the right name. Prabhupāda: That is your misfortune. (everyone laughs) That is your misfortune. Yes. (German) How can I help? (German) You do not know the name, if somebody is informing you, "Here is the name," he still will not take. That is your misfortune. What can be done? A misfortunate man cannot be helped. That's right. So here is the authority. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Satsvarūpa: Dr. P. J. Saher: ...and when I was in Africa I saw the people are looking for the name and chanting like you chant. But they have a complete different idea of thought. My question is how can I know what is the right thing? From where do you know this? Prabhupāda: But, as a human being you can study what you have seen in Africa and where you are seeing here. There's much difference. Dr. P. J. Saher: I mean, my question only I saw singing the people... Prabhupāda: No, just like these boys and girls, they are coming from Jewish group or Christian group. They have not come from India. Now how they're chanting and enjoying you can see. Dr. P. J. Saher: No, I mean the intention was the same. They're looking for (indistinct) Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...you have to see the resultant study. Dr. P. J. Saher: I was quite surprised. Prabhupāda: Yes. And ask them to induce to chant any other name. They'll not do that. Phalena paricīyate, you have to study by the result of the activity, not theoretical. (German) Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes. That would be the criterion for me. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion when St. Paul speaks. They had the same... Prabhupāda: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion. That's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. Yes you can take. Vedavyāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God. Prabhupāda;: Yes. That is the business in this age. Chant the holy name of God. Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible... Prabhupāda: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ. Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now? *Prabhupāda: Not now. Later. The simplest method*-chant the holy name of the Lord. That's all. Prof. Pater Porsch: Should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference? Prabhupāda: If you chant loudly then others can hear. They also take benefit. Vedavyāsa: Should we translate? Prabhupāda: Hm? Vedavyāsa: Should we translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. (German) Even the birds and beasts they will hear and be benefited. (German) Therefore loud chanting is recommended. So that even the birds, beasts, trees, plants, they can hear. (German) Prof. Pater Porsch: I seldom saw so many happy faces as today, this evening, below. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the case. In America also the ladies and gentlemen ask them, "Are you Americans?" Because they do not see Americans with such nice face. One Christian priest*-I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii-so he came to talk with me. He inquired "Swamiji, how is that your disciples look so bright?" He inquired. Yes. Prof. Pater Porsch: Without drugs. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And one Christian priest he showed one pamphlet that these boys, they're our boys but before this they're not coming to the church. They do not want to ask anything about God. Now they're mad after God. How is it? He admitted, "They're our men." And I give you another example. In our Los Angeles temple*-this was a church, big church-but it was not going on. It was being closed. And it was sold to us. And now you go and see there is daily thousands of... the same men, the same place. The crowd is so... Why? I have not brought all these men from India. Judge. Unless it is something sublime, how they're accepting it? And they're all young boys. Not that they have become old, therefore they're seeking after God. (everyone laughs) And young men have got so many aspirations, they go to the restaurant to smoke, to enjoy girlfriend, boyfriend, these... They have given up everything. Professor Durckheim: And they are working in the society, they are working... Prabhupāda: We are working, we are writing these books and selling them. That's all. This is our work. Professor Durckheim: I see. Prabhupāda: We have no other... Even in the Indian Parliament, the question was raised that "How is that this international society is spending lavishly? What is their income?" There is a rumor that Americans are sending these CIA, what is this? (everyone laughs) Rascal people, they think the CIA has come to dance and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (everyone laughs) So, of course the reply was given that we have no information that these people are CIA but we know that they are maintaining themselves by selling their literature and public contribution. That's all. And we have got 102 centers like this. This is not very... If you go to our Los Angeles center, New York center and other, Vṛndāvana center and Navadvīpa center, not less than 200 men are there always. And we are providing with their food, shelter. We give education to their children. We are getting them married. We don't allow these boys to live as friends. No. "You get yourself married." Yes. (German) Here is a girl, Kausalyā. I picked her from Hawaii. Now you can ask what she was and what she is now. Now she's married. She's happy. She has everything here. Life is there. (pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I think you are all learned gentlemen, you should give us support and cooperate with this movement. It is very nice movement. That is my request to you. (German) Satsvarūpa: May we take your leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. You sit down. I do not... I can talk all night. (devotees laugh) Because it is Kṛṣṇa's talk that is your (indistinct) already. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Why do you stop? Satatam. Go on. Continuous. What is that? Satatam means? Satsvarūpa: Always? *Prabhupāda: Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ, namasyantaś ca mām... [Bg. 9.14]. Prof. Pater Porsch: In what way can he support, or cooperate with your movement? In what way can he offer optimal benefit to your movement? Prabhupāda: That is a simple thing. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Prof. Pater Porsch: No. I mean in a further, in an extended way. For example... Haṁsadūta: Yes. We have got a life membership program which can be (indistinct) can participate in that way. Prabhupāda: You can become a life member and read all these books and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no loss. Suppose you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa there is no material loss on your part, but if there is any gain, why don't you take it? *Prof. Pater Porsch: No, my question was perhaps a little, not quite clear. Many of us here, myself felt, represent not only our personal selves but are here on behalf of certain institutions and we are active in some form or other of public service, these gentlemen probably also. And in what way, for example, would we serve your movement by giving a clear explanation about the aims of your activity, for example, removing prejudices and supporting Sanskrit studies and the better distribution of the Bhagavad*-gītā in this form, in such ways, perhaps? Prabhupāda: Yes. We are writing these books for distribution. Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes. Yes. Yes, I've already suggested that one. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are not manufactured knowledge. They are standard knowledge, Vedic knowledge, I am explaining for understanding of the people in general. Each word is being explained. Here is my dictaphone. I am sitting here. So as soon as I stop talking, I shall write immediately. At night also, I get up at two o'clock, one o'clock, and write these books. *Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda came to United States in 1965, and this movement was started in 1966, '67, and since that time, he has published about twenty books like this, including Bhagavad*-gītā, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: And what is the number of books sold last year? Satsvarūpa: Four million. Prabhupāda: Four million copies. Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please put a question before I forget. I heard from our, or I read in the invitation that this center is not only a center as such but something more. It should also be an āśrama and also a forest university in the tradition of the ancient times. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Pater Porsch: A kind of a university also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Prof. Pater Porsch: Like Indian and allied sciences, Vedic sciences. *Prabhupāda: My idea is that all our centers should be self*-supported. We do not like that idea that for your support you have to go 100 miles to get your bread. That is a very dangerous drawback. You produce your food locally and then support yourself. The main problem is what to eat, where to sleep. So we get some place and support ourself by producing our own food. We have already begun in New Vrindaban, New..., West Virginia, Virginia, and similarly in other centers, we are producing our food, grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. That is sufficient. But we don't kill any animals. That we don't do. Prof. Pater Porsch: But will this center also be a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. Yes. You can play a little record. Last night... Haṁsadūta: This morning's recording? Prabhupāda: Yes. Prof. Pater Porsch: May I please ask, are there is also room for physical yoga exercises while chanting of the God's names? Prabhupāda: Yes, but we are exercising by dancing. Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes, of course. (tape of Prabhupāda singing is played) Prabhupāda: Make little louder. (tape plays for about five minutes of Prabhupāda singing prayers to the six Gosvāmīs) What are these pictures? Haṁsadūta: These are pictures of our society's activities in the temples. Prof. Pater Porsch: Very constructive and very... So much success in a relative very short time, if you began in 1966. Prabhupāda: '67. Prof. Pater Porsch: And during the Bangladesh crisis you also... Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone came; we feed. That much... There were many refugees, so we fed them. Prof. Pater Porsch: But that automatically answers the question of this gentlemen also, the body in the service of other people, you see... Prabhupāda: No, we give food. Anyone come and take food. Here also. There is no question of Bangladesh. Let anyone come and take food. In our Māyāpura center we especially give food distribution on Saturday and Sunday. At least five thousand people come. So all humanitarian work is included. Lady: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (some guests leave) So now we have come to Germany. You cooperate and make it a great success for the general benefit of the whole humanity. We have got arts, music, literature, culture, food, everything. Prof. Pater Porsch: I think it will also help to quite a considerable extent for the removing of prejudices and for a better understanding of... Prabhupāda: No, this is the only platform where all people, all religion, all culture, can unite. This is the only place, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We practically see how they are becoming successful. In Africa also, within the villages they are responding. [break] ...distinction. Devotee: (showing Śrīla Prabhupāda's books) This is Spanish, Chinese. Prof. Pater Porsch: (indistinct) Chinese. Prabhupāda: Japanese also. And Hindi. Devotee: Italian, French. Hindi also we have. Bengali, Gujarati. Prof. Pater Porsch: But I also noticed on the faces of the devotees downstairs that many or several faces were, we would say in the West, sublimated, that the facial features showed that a certain form of sublimation had taken place. (German) Prabhupāda: Even children are learning how to dance, how to offer obeisances, how to chant, how to clap. They are also learning, small children. *Prof. Pater Porsch: And I think that it comes at the right time so that people may not be misled into juvenile delinquency, all of those "easy riders" and motorcycles and adolescent criminality. They find creative outlets for their energies also as a by*-product. *Prabhupāda: No. We are teaching... Of course, we do not defy this modern advance of material civil... We don't say that. But this is our main business, that is, jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā, to inquire about the Absolute Truth. *Prof. Pater Porsch: So can you not say that this knowledge is an ātma*-vidyā, that we are trying to come to the knowledge of the ātman. Prabhupāda: Ātmine? Prof. Pater Porsch: Ātmā, self. *Prabhupāda: Oh, ātmā, yes. Tattva*-jijñāsā means ātma-jijñāsā. *Prof. Pater Porsch: That is why it is also correct to translate the term kṛṣṇa*-arjuna-saṁvara (?) as a kind of metaphysical knowledge, philosophical knowledge. Prabhupāda: (aside:) No, not now. No, not now. No, whole knowledge. Metaphysical, physical, everything is there. Prof. Pater Porsch: In the *Gītā* it also, a verse, that "Four kinds of persons seek Me..." *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Catur*-vidhā bhajante mām. Prof. Pater Porsch: "The man who seeks knowledge." *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, catur*-vidhā. And similarly, there are four kinds of rascals. Catur-vidhā. No. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Everything is there. *Prof. Pater Porsch: But, perhaps, that could be also a question, that Graf Durckheim has in mind, I think, perhaps, when he asked the question about belief, etc. Perhaps he also thinks that we are living in a period of, where, because of the technological construction of society, rational knowledge is appreciated and, for example, ten years ago non*-rational knowledge in Germany, actually, or in Europe was highly suspected. We had lived through a period of positivism, and people in our universities even wanted to abolish the word consciousness. They even wanted to abolish the word psychology on the basis, on the presumption that there is no such thing as a (German). Professor Durckheim: But this time is over. Prof. Pater Porsch: Yes. Professor Durckheim: The modern times are not modern anymore. Professor Durckheim: I agree with you but just think how the world was only a few years ago. Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational (German), the really German tradition is the irrational. So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly. Prabhupāda: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on, changing. Prof. Pater Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street... I don't mean... Yes, it was, of course, in Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the... Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes. Prof. Pater Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German) [break] Professor Durckheim: ...I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is... Prabhupāda: No, we invite everyone. Professor Durckheim: You invite. But as far as members are concerned, to become a member of your movement... Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have people in all walks of life. For example, we have the (German). He is a life member. And all people... Professor Durckheim: He's simply a member? Haṁsadūta: Yes. He is a member, he supports the movement, he follows the principles himself, he appreciates the philosophy, but he has his responsibility in the society. He acts as a member of the society and he is a member. But his lifestyle is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (end) Morning Walk -- June 20, 1974, Germany Prabhupāda: ...scientists can change it? Nature. Nature. Nature should be one kind. Why there are two kinds, varieties? [break] ...migration of the soul is clearly understood or not? Explain how the transmigration takes place. Mādhavānanda: Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram... [Bg. 2.13]. Prabhupāda: That is śloka, but you explain how it takes place. Satsvarūpa: We get a body according to our desires, and then the body only lasts so long, and when it wears out, we have to take another body, and that is determined by our actions in this body. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But how you transmigrate? Haṁsadūta: According to the mental condition at the time of leaving this body. Prabhupāda: But what is the process? Satsvarūpa: The subtle body carries the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear? Haṁsadūta: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Anybody can understand. I am coming, going, but when it is a question of vacating, I go out of the apartment, but I never come back again. I will enter another apartment. "The soul enters another body" means enters the womb of another mother. And there the suitable body is created and again mother delivers the child. Again new chapter of life begins. Where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so rascal and dull*-headed, the simple thing they cannot understand. And still, they are big, big scientists, philosophers, and cheating others. They are unable to understand, themselves, and the same rascal knowledge they are distributing to others and taking Nobel Prize. This is the mūḍhas, the society of the cheaters and the cheated. Where is the difficulty to understand the simple thing, how the soul is transmigrating? They sometimes say that "We do not see how it is going." No, how...? Can you see the mind? But can you deny, "There is no mind?" Mind is there. Everyone knows I have got mind, you have got mind, but do I see your mind? Therefore I shall deny the existence of mind? Mind, intelligence and ego-these three things are there, but we cannot see. How my mind is working, can you see? Or how your mind is working, can I see? And because I cannot see, therefore shall I conclude that you have no mind, I have no mind? How foolish they are. Just see. What is their explanation, Satsvarūpa? Satsvarūpa: I was just thinking of a different argument of theirs. Prabhupāda: What is that? Satsvarūpa: That is that sometimes people say, "I don't mind this transmigration if I become a cat or a dog because if I forget so completely, it doesn't matter. I won't even suffer." Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter, but if I say that "I will turn you immediately into a dog," will you agree to become? Satsvarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? You'll forget. Satsvarūpa: Fearful. Prabhupāda: If I say that "I can turn you immediately to become a dog..." That is possible, but will you agree to become a dog? Mādhavānanda: No. *Prabhupāda: Why? You will forget. That is foolishness. "Because I shall forget, therefore I don't care for it"*-this is childish, foolish proposal. If I say, "I will turn you immediately to this grass, and you will stay here for one hundred years," will you agree to stand like that for hundred years? Hare Kṛṣṇa. In the western countries actually there is no philosophy. Mādhavānanda: When this is explained to them, they usually, if they are a little intelligent, can understand, but they don't want to understand. Prabhupāda: That is the difference. And therefore they are rascals. No intelligence. Intelligence is there, but it is so covered that it is almost like trees. Trees are also intelligent because it is life. There is intelligence. You will see one tree is growing. If there is wall, it will grow like this. Have you seen it? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. And it is proved by science. Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he has got institute. A machine records how a tree feeling. You cut one tree. How it is feeling pain, that is recorded in the machine. Haṁsadūta: They also hear sound. They made some experiment that when they grow plants with music, they grow more. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. Haṁsadūta: In greenhouses. They play music. Then they become more healthy. *Prabhupāda: Just see. Their sensation is very covered. Just like you cut the nails. There is no sensation. And does it mean there is no sensation*-therefore there is no life? Unless there is life, how it is growing? It is growing; therefore you cut. But when you cut, there is no sensation. But there is life. Otherwise, how it is growing? The same nail, when you cut, you throw it on the ground. It will not grow. These are practical example. Just like little child. Their sensation is less. I know. My eldest daughter, when she was six months old, there was some boil. So the doctor operated. She simply, "Uh, uh," no cried. I have seen it. She was not crying. But the same boil, when a fully developed man, he will feel more sensation. So according to the body, the sensations are different. The same things, means mind, intelligence and ego, according to the body, they act differently. But the mind, intelligence and ego are there. The dog is coming, and if I say, "Hut!", unless it has got intelligence, how it goes away the other way? There is intelligence. There is no language, but because he has got intelligence, he can immediately understand I don't want him to come here. So how you can say there is no intelligence? The rascals say "The animals have no intelligence; therefore they have no soul." If one has no intelligence, there is no soul. That is admitted. But here is intelligence. How can you deny, "There is no soul"? The animals, the cows, when they are taken to the slaughterhouse, why they cry? Because he has intelligence that "Now I am going to be killed." And these rascals say there is no soul. And still, they are religious priests. Such fools and rascals are made religious fools, priests. No common sense. And they also get degree, Doctor of Divinity, DD. [break] ...Greek scholar, here in this Germany or in nearby? Haṁsadūta: I don't know Prabhupāda. We have been here for too short a time to find out who is exactly here, and all the people we contacted, their program was already fixed. They could not come, but they said they would be happy to meet you if you came again. Prabhupāda: That's all right. I wanted to know the philology of the Greek word "Kristo." Or is there any dictionary? Find out the word "Kristo." Haṁsadūta: Yeah, we can see today. Prabhupāda: Greek dictionary. [break] ...France. *Haṁsadūta: Germany is bordered by many countries*-Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Switzerland. So we are right in the center of Germany. So Germany is in the center of Europe. Prabhupāda: [break] ...even a single stick like this in the laboratory. What do you think? You can? Satsvarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: What is scientist? Simply talking. Vikathyante. Vikathyante. This word is used in Bhāgavata. When one is covered by māyā, he talks so many nonsense things, vikathayante. [break] Mādhavānanda: ...different living entities in different material bodies suffering. Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you have a material body, you must suffer. Just like in prisonhouse. When the criminals are put there, they are punished different way according to the criminal offense, similarly, you are, we are all criminals, and for different types of suffering we have got different types of body. Different types of body means different types of suffering. Just like this tree is punished, "Stand here for three hundred years." This is punishment. Just like we do, "Stand up on the bench!" Children. So any kind of material body, even Lord Brahmā, that is suffering, different types of suffering. That's all. And if you want to be free from the suffering, then get out of this material body. This is... Kṛṣṇa says that this is a place for suffering. Where does He say? *Satsvarūpa: Ā*-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ: [Bg. 8.16] "From the highest planet down to the lowest, all are places of suffering where birth and death take place." *Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Just from distance, not so near. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. Duḥkha. Duḥkha means suffering. Ālayam. Ālayam means place. So the creator of this universe, the Supreme Lord, He is saying, "This is a place for suffering." And it is called Mṛtyu*-loka, "For death, the planets for dying." That means death is unnatural to the eternal soul. But anywhere you live within this material world, you will die. That is material world. Either you live as a Brahmā or live as a small insect, ant, you must die. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate: [Bg. 8.19] death and again take birth, death and again take birth. But these rascals, they do not know: "This is natural, that's all." That one can stop this death and birth, they have no knowledge. And still, they are big, big scholars. They do not know that this movement is for stopping birth and death. Do they understand this? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: They cannot believe it. They have no so brain. Satsvarūpa: They say, "Well, that's the way you think in the East. It is very interesting." *Prabhupāda: And why don't you think? That means you are fool. You cannot think, just like dog cannot think. So you are equal to dog. Tell them like that. It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of understanding. In the East also there are many rascals, and in the West there are many intelligent. If it is the East and West question, how the Western boys and girls taking this philosophy? It is not the East and West. It is the question of the rascal and intelligent. One who is intelligent, either he is East and West, he can understand. And one is a rascal, either he is East and West, he cannot understand. This is the real problem. Just like this cemetery. What is the use of keeping this cemetery, occupying unnecessarily so much land? And they are worshiping. They will not go to worship Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa, but they will worship stone, bhūtejya, offer flower, kneel down. And where the man has gone, he does not know. Bhūtejya. And we saw in the Geneva. A big plot of land is occupied. Haṁsadūta: Every city has two or three at least, very big, because everyone has to get such a plot. Prabhupāda: And there are many ghosts also. Yes. Especially at night, if you go, you will see. There was a ghost in the house of John Lennon. John Lennon. I was guest there. There was a ghost. [break] ...binding to the māyā, to just remain a slave of māyā and drink this beer. [break] Haṁsadūta: They introduced this. Prabhupāda: So before that, there was no Christian? Haṁsadūta: No, before that, there was no Christian. Prabhupāda: What they were? No religion? Haṁsadūta: They were like you said. They were just tribes people. Prabhupāda: Oh. So these Germans were tribe people, uncivilized? Haṁsadūta: Yes, before Christianity, Europe was completely uncivilized. Prabhupāda: Oh. Therefore the order is "Thou shalt not kill." Simply their business was killing. Uncivilized persons, they kill animals and eat. So due to past habit they could not forget this killing business. This is the proof that this system of religion was preached among the crude people, not civilized. So why they introduced this beer? Haṁsadūta: It was a kind of refreshment. Prabhupāda: But before that, they were not drinking. Haṁsadūta: There may have been something like wine. The monks also used to make wine. Prabhupāda: Yes, they make wine. Uncivilized men, they know how to make wine. In India they do so by rice boiling and keep it for some days. It becomes wine, fermented. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...used to say that "I was drinking beer in barrels." He said. Forty years ago he said me like that. Here I don't see them, but Hamburg I have seen, yes, passing urine on the roadside. There are so many urine coming from the wall. 'Cause the more you drink beer, you will pass urine more. The German language is trinken, trinking. Drinking means trinking. Yes, I have seen it. Trinking or trinken? Haṁsadūta: Trinken. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...students, they are advancing for the unflinching faith on guru and Kṛṣṇa. This is the secret. [break] ...these devotees, how nice they are. They do not appreciate? Haṁsadūta: I think most of them cannot understand it, but they sympathize, I think, because the principles are (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That is appreciation. Haṁsadūta: Yes, for the principles. At least in Germany we find that although people don't understand it, they appreciate that we are following the four principles. Prabhupāda: [break] ...understood that this group is another edition of hippies. Gradually they are learning that they are not hippies. They are serious. [break] ...paper it was published that "Swami Bhaktivedanta has come in the right time." And what is that? Satsvarūpa: Yes, in a number of articles, the writer notes that Prabhupāda came at a perfect time in history, and went to the right place, the lower East Side of New York, and then again in Haight Ashbury, just when the hippie movement was big but they were looking for spiritual life. That is a historical expert move that you made. *Prabhupāda: No, that is very good remark, appreciated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is known as patita*-pāvana, the deliverer of the most fallen. Patita-pāvana-hetu tava avatāra: "My Lord, Your incarnation is for the reason to deliver all the fallen souls." So He gave one example by delivering Jagāi and Mādhāi, but by His grace, now thousands of Jagāi-Mādhāis are being delivered. He gave the example that here is the typical patita, fallen. So this movement will deliver this kind of people. That is His prediction. Or it... factually by this movement, so many Jagāi-Mādhāis are being delivered. Jagāi... What was their fault? The fault was they were number one woman hunter and all other good qualifications: (laughing) drunkard, meat-eaters and thieves, rogues. That is their qualification. And immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu turned them to become Vaiṣṇava. "Simply promise that... You say that you shall not commit anymore these sinful activities." "Yes, Sir, I will not." So that process we are going on. (end) Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany Prabhupāda: ...were caught, that "Here Rādhārāṇī was sleeping." [Break] ...and was talking about the name of God. So if we are chanting the name of God, what is your objection to accept the name of the Lord? Professor Durckheim: What's the objection to? Prabhupāda: Objection to accept the name which we are chanting? Professor Durckheim: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Was not that? What did he say? Haṁsadūta: Yes, that God had no name. Prabhupāda: God had no name, then Jesus Christ. Haṁsadūta: His point was actually that God had no name, otherwise He would be a person. But I think you missed that point. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, I stressed that if God has no name, then why Christ said that "Hallowed be Thy name"? Professor Durckheim: Well, he explained from his theologian point of view, when Moses was asking God, "Who is Thy name?" God didn't give a name but said only, "I am who I am." And then He explained if in the prayer one says, "Blessed be thy name," they use this in order to avoid a direct name. So just only say, "The name." But I don't understand the whole thing because the word God already is... What do you want more? And I believe that in the Christian religion, everybody just says God. They think the word God is the name and nothing more needed. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not very good sense, that president, president of America. People say " 'President' is sufficient." Then why "Mr. Nixon"? They are all fools? No, they say, "Mr. Nixon," sometimes they say, and sometimes, "the President." Rather, they say more "Mr. Nixon" than "the President." Why? Professor Durckheim: Sure. But I only can say... Prabhupāda: So this argument, this argument is not very sensible argument. Professor Durckheim: No, but that is the answer they would give. I don't believe the special name of God is for me the name, the word God. We are praying to God. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Then name... When Christ says, "Hallowed by Thy name," there is name. The name is Kṛṣṇa, already there. Therefore he did not require to say again. But the name is there, Kṛṣṇa is there, Viṣṇu is there, Mādhava is there, Govinda is there. There are thousands and thousands of names. So you pick up any one of them. And chant it. Why do you say there is no name? Then we are chanting the name. Then what we are? We are all rascals and fools? If he says, "No, there is no name," Christ confirms there is name, and we are chanting the name. How you can say there is no name? Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite. Well, I understand exactly what you mean very well. Prabhupāda: There is name. It is confirmed. "Hallowed be Thy name." Now, we are chanting the name. What is your objection? You chant this name. Professor Durckheim: I have no objection. Prabhupāda: No, you... I mean to say anyone. Professor Durckheim: Yes, quite, quite. Prabhupāda: And "Hallowed be Thy..." Those who are chanting the name of God, Kṛṣṇa, just see the result, whether they are improving or not than those who have no name. Come to the practical field. These boys and girls, before my coming in the western countries, they were all so many, I do not wish to... (laughing) Now by simply chanting the name, how much improvement they have done? So why there should be any objection to chant this name? And what is the loss there? Suppose anyone chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. There is no loss, but the gain is practical. Why do they not, these theosophists, do not agree to chant this name, simple thing? Professor Durckheim: I think they don't know it, and then... Prabhupāda: That is the fact. They don't know it. And still, they are theologicians. They are philosophers. Professor Durckheim: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: They do not know anything; still, they are teachers. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that one is not qualified man, and he is teacher. He has become a teacher. Professor Durckheim: Yes, the theology is very much a collection of hardened, petrified interpretation of original experiences. And just because they are petrified very often, today theology has nothing to say to our generation. Prabhupāda: No. I have got many disciples. They were formerly theologicians. What is the name, that boy in America? Satsvarūpa: In Arabia? Prabhupāda: No, no. There was a boy. He was theologician. Prajāpati, Prajāpati. Do you remember? He was theologician. Our only request is that Bible confirms there is name. Now, even though they do not know the name, here is the name, Kṛṣṇa. So why people will not take this name to chant? And if by chanting the name there is practical benefit, why they should object? Why they should be so sectarian? Theologician, at least, must not be sectarian. So let the whole world chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So there is no loss. If there is any gain, why not take it? And because you are writing books, therefore I am requesting you to write this, that some of the Christians, they say there is no name, but Christ says there is name, and here is the name. They are chanting, and they are getting profit. We don't want anything. We don't want any price, that I have researched the name. Professor Durckheim: They chant the name... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Professor Durckheim: ...in orthodox church and also very... They chant the name of Jesus. Again and again, the whole day, they say the word "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, have pity of us. Jesus, Jesus have pity of us." Prabhupāda: But Jesus said, "God, hallowed by Thy name." Jesus never said that "You chant my name." No gentleman says like that. He said, "Hallowed be God. Hallowed by Thy name." And why they are sectarian? If there is name already, why do they not chant it? And what is the harm? Haṁsadūta: There are so many places. At one point he says, "I have kept them in your name. Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain." So many references to the name. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: The Jews have the Jehova, Jehova name, Jehova, but they don't chant. Prabhupāda: No? They are not following. Professor Durckheim: Jehova. How beautiful it is here. *Prabhupāda: Yes, very nice. (pause) Bhāgavata, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is presented in such a nice way that go on reading, reading there are eighteen thousand verses, and in each verse you will find new knowledge about God, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And if you study one verse, it will take at least one month. Professor Durckheim: Yes, I suppose so. Prabhupāda: Yes. So eighteen thousand months you have to live. Professor Durckheim: Very good. Prabhupāda: How many years, eighteen thousand months? Haṁsadūta: About 1,300. Prabhupāda: Eighteen thousand months, divide by twelve. Professor Durckheim: Twelve thousand months would be thousand years. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So... Haṁsadūta: 1,500 years. *Prabhupāda: What these theologicians think about God? It is already 1,500 months' substance to read. What they will discover? Teeny discovery? We have already stock for 1,500 years' understanding. So what we have to understand from them? [break] ...anādir ananta*-rūpam. This is only for Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa has got expansions-unlimited. Advaita, acyuta, ananta. Ananta means unlimited. God, His one feature is Kṛṣṇa, and He has unlimited features. If a gentleman simply reads the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam quietly at home, he will be fully conversant, fully aware of what is God. Just like a scholar. He is not limited in one university or in one book. He reads various books to understand the subject matter of his research. Similarly, those who are actually serious about understanding God, they should not stick only to a particular scripture. They should read all others where the information of God is there. Just like we sometimes quote from Bible, but the Christians, they cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. They cannot do that. But they do not read. Even they do not read fully their Bible. Professor Durckheim: No, they don't. Prabhupāda: Just see. And still, they want to be masters of understanding God. I have seen many scholars in the western countries. They are well known as Sanskrit scholar. But they cannot quote even a verse. Professor Durckheim: I see. Well, it's a pity. Sanskrit scholars... Prabhupāda: Yes. But I understand in Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars. Professor Durckheim: It seems so. Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many learned Sanskrit scholars. But till now I have not met any one of them. Professor Durckheim: Well, to be a scholar in the usual sense of the word and to really go into the meaning, they are two different things. There are sometimes people who seeks to be a scholar, but in their actual knowledge, they have no insight. And that's also the case in the, with the theologian and the Bible. They know the Bible sometimes... Prabhupāda: No, that is required. Professor Durckheim: ...but they don't enter into the meaning. They interpret it just along their small brains because they haven't got the experience. Haṁsadūta: Do you want to go this way around, Prabhupāda, or just walk straight on? Prabhupāda: No, straight. Car is there? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, car is there, following us. [break] Prabhupāda: Artificially they live in the city. Professor Durckheim: Yes, there are now millions and millions of children who never have seen a cow, never seen a horse. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: They go and stand at the zoo to see an animal. Yes, It's true. And I have just now in my center the visit of six Americans from Chicago who have their psychological center, and they wanted to know what we do, and they told me. They have a special little area where children are taken to see one cow, you see, or one horse just to know what it is because they never see it, never see an animal. Prabhupāda: Most unnatural life. City life, most unnatural. Professor Durckheim: Oh, there are many children, they have never seen a tree. [break] ...sleeping only very few hours. Prabhupāda: Not very few hours. Say, four, five hours altogether. Altogether. Maximum five, minimum four. Professor Durckheim: All the night or do you at the day sometimes? *Prabhupāda: No. At night I get up at one, at half past one, sometimes half past twelve. But I take a little rest, one or two hour in the daytime. So two hours at night, two hours at day, or three hours at night, two hours in day. In this way, altogether five hours, not more than that. Our predecessor gurus, Gosvāmīs, they were taking rest not more than two hours or 2-1/2 hours. So we should come to that standard, yes. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **. About them this description is: they reduced their sleeping, nidra. Nidra means sleeping. And āhāra. Āhāra means eating and collection. Collection is also āhāra. Yes. So they were mendicant. They had no collection. And they had no preaching mission. They were simply writing books. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau, very expert to study different scriptures just to get the essence of scripture and give to the people. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. So their life was engaged for the benefit of the whole human society. What these people are talking philanthropy and humanitarian? They dedicated their life for... Just like we are doing. It is not for any sect or any person. For the whole human society. So that should be the mission. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau. Therefore their literature is honored all over the world, all over the universe. Just like our books. We are selling all over the world, all universities, all school, all colleges, all gentlemen. It is not sectarian. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. This was their hard labor, and rādhā-kṛṣṇa-bhajanānandena mattālikau, and they were very much pleased in worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity. All the Gosvāmīs established a Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa temple. In Vṛndāvana each and every Gosvāmī established one temple in the beginning. Then others followed. Rūpa Gosvāmī established Govindajī's temple. And Jīva Gosvāmī established Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. *Professor Durckheim: The Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa center in Geneva, for instance, has there any connection with you, the Swami Nityabowa-badananda? (?) Haṁsadūta: No. Professor Durckheim: No, no connection. Prabhupāda: They are all impersonalists. The whole world is impersonalist. Perhaps we are only the personalists. Professor Durckheim: You know that the Christian theologian, they think the main difference between them and Eastern religions altogether is that the Christian are personalists and Eastern tradition is not personalist. This is the whole... Prabhupāda: Misconception, yes. The majority of Indian population, they are personalists. Yes, majority. Either they worship God or demigod, but they are personalists. Recently the Māyāvādī philosophers, they have poisoned, the impersonalism, calamity. God is person. It is... In the Veda it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). There are millions of persons. We are all persons. And God is the chief person. Just like in modern democracy, there is no monarch. But ultimately they have to select one president. Without person, there cannot be government. Why they do not remain without a president? Let it... Government, everything is government, impersonal. Why they select a president? Professor Durckheim: Yes. One who takes lead, yes, sure. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if for a small government, three bighās of land, you require a personal governor, and such a huge government, millions and millions of universes, how the governor, the Supreme Person, supreme executive, shall not be a person? What is the reason? Actually, at the present moment, people have given up to understand the science of God. That is the defect. They are thinking everything here. Here is advertisement, "Everything here. Come on. Here is a bottle. Here is the pack (peg?). Come on." Everything here. That is the defect. And we are preaching, "Everything is not there." "Everything is lost there," we are preaching. No intoxication. And the material world is preaching, "Everything is there." This is the difference. We are preaching, "Everything is here in Kṛṣṇa, in God." We have... There is a tendency here. Just see. They want to worship Deity. Even on the street side there is such thing. The tendency is to worship Deity, person. I have seen in Rome. In many small lanes, they have got this, yes. Personal worship. So the village men, they are all sleeping now? Professor Durckheim: Yes. Most of them are sleeping. Prabhupāda: They are enjoying. Sleeping is enjoying. Professor Durckheim: This is a very ugly village here. Prabhupāda: Why? It is very clean. Professor Durckheim: Nothing but stone. No gardens, no flowers. Usually it is different. *Prabhupāda: In other words, you mean to say that "the village for the stone*-hearted." Professor Durckheim: Yes. *Haṁsadūta: The village is for the stone*-hearted. Nothing but stones. Professor Durckheim: Once when I was in Paris and walking the streets and nothing but stone and stone and iron and nothing alive, I suddenly heard a voice, coming from beneath, as if there were a big, big one. I heard the voice, if you like, of God and saying, "Well, isn't there not a little spot there where I could manifest myself?" The sadness of God. I heard the voice, "This is the sadness of God." Was very impressive to me. Really a real voice in myself. Because a town like this has no place, no channel, for His voice to come through. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor Durckheim: That was the feeling at that moment. [break] ...smell of the baked bread. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Professor Durckheim: Is it very agreeable? Prabhupāda: What can be done? We have to be accustomed because we have to go all the western countries, the boiling meat. So let us go out now. Haṁsadūta: You want to go in here, the car. (end) Morning Walk -- June 22, 1974, Germany Haṁsadūta: The people who were there, they all paid to come to that engagement. They did not come free. Five marks. About two dollars. Prabhupāda: How many men came? Haṁsadūta: There were about 120, 130. At least. I counted them. That many... Engagement. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: And the lecture was very, very nice. Prabhupāda: Good morning. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So last night our explanation was right? Devotee: Yes. Lots of people of the country was in the football, was going in the football. Haṁsadūta: This week is the big world football matches. So everyone goes to see that. They either stay at home and watch television or they go to the fields. Prabhupāda: Because they have been taught like that. What is their fault? They do not know the importance of human life. "Eat, drink, be merry, and enjoy." That's all. And then become a dog. That's all. They do not know. And they say, "Never mind I shall become a dog. After all, I will forget everything." (Haṁsadūta translates into German) Prabhupāda: There are so many planets, so many different standard of life. Nothing. They do not know anything. (German) Guest (1) (German man): But the other planets has a more spiritual form than our planet. Prabhupāda: No. Material forms. Just like in the water, the fish is there. That is also material form. But you cannot live within the water. Neither the fish cannot live on the land. So in different planets there are different types of atmosphere and different types of body also. You cannot go to the sun planet. You cannot go to the moon planet because that is a different atmosphere. But there are living entities. They have got their suitable body. Guest (1): But I think for the people it is difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: Because they are fools. How they can understand? (laughter) Simply fools eating meat and becoming like a tiger and dog. That's all. What...? Tiger may be very strong, but what brain he has got? No brain. (laughs) For brain, there must be a brāhmaṇa. Satya śama dama titikṣa [Bg. 18.42]. He must be qualified. A tiger may attack me and kill me. He is very strong. But that does not mean he has got better brain than me. Guest (1): Yes, yes, I see. Prabhupāda: So the modern civilization is making tigers, how he can be bodily strong and kill others, and discover atomic bomb. They are busy only on these things. The dog's business, how to attack another dog. That's all. Guest (1): This will be a very nice country here for your community. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): And I think a very, very good example for the people around. Prabhupāda: But the advanced human beings, they come to shoot here. Guest (1): Yes. Haṁsadūta: (translates to German) Guest (1): And then it will be finished. And later it will be finished. Prabhupāda: The animals, they are living in their own atmosphere, and these people, they come to kill them. Killing business has become very prominent at the present moment, and therefore they are being killed in the womb of the mother, abortion and killing child. That they do not know. Nature will not excuse you. You are killing; you'll be killed within your mothers' womb. You'll never see the light of the sun. You go on being killed, one after another, as many animals you have killed. They do not know. And time will come in this age when there will be no food and man will kill man and eat. That time is coming. Yes. They are now killing animal, but animal lives on this grass and grains. When there will be no grass, no grains, where they will get animal? They'll kill their own son and eat. That time is coming. Nature's law is that you grow your own food. But they are not interested in growing food. They are interested in manufacturing bolts and nuts. Guest (1): Manufacturing? Prabhupāda: Bolts and nuts. Guest (1): Yes, yes, yes. I see. Prabhupāda: Factory, big, big factory. So they will have to eat bolts and nuts. Where they will get food grains? They thought that "Let us eat the animal and manufacture bolts and nuts." Then when the animal will be finished, then what they will eat? Satsvarūpa: The scientists are making artificial food; so they're not that worried. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is... That I say bolts and nuts. That artificial food means bolts and nuts. Somebody told me that they have manufactured artificial butter and by eating they were vomiting. They're vomiting. There is ample butter supply. Why these rascals are interested in manufacturing artificial butter to show their scientific brain? Just see how they are rascals. They can get, huh? Just like Kṛṣṇa was stealing His mother's butter and throwing it to the monkeys. Butter can be produced in that way, that everyone can eat sumptuously. No. "Kill the animals and artificial butter you eat and vomit." That's all. Just see their intelligence. And they are proud of their advanced civilization. The same example, that a man barking as a dog, people will go to see it by purchasing ticket. (German translation). Prabhupāda: And they do not see the natural dog is barking. Artificial, they pay ten dollars ticket and see how a man is barking like a dog. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. This is not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God." Guest (1): Ahiṁsā. Prabhupāda: Just in the beginning Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." That is the beginning of religious life. The animal killers cannot understand what is God. It is not possible. There is a statement in the Bhāgavata, viṇa paśughnat. "Who can remain aloof from the chanting of the holy name of God unless he's an animal killer?" Yes. Animal killers cannot understand what is God, what is God's name. That's not possible. (pause) Kṛṣṇa, what to speak of killing animal, He was embracing animal every morning, every... Yes. He was embracing. Haṁsadūta: But Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Don't come near. (German translation) Guest (1): And also the holy Francis of Assisi was in relation with all animals in the Christian tradition. *Prabhupāda: In Christian tradition there is everything nice, but nobody's following. That is the difficulty. [break] ... portion of the road is not paved like this. Bhagavad*-gītā, it is said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Both the man and animals will live prosperously when there is sufficient foodgrain. [break] ...at anna-sambhavaḥ. If there is sufficient rainfall, the production of foodgrains will be very easy. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. And if you satisfy the Lord by performing yajña, then there will be sufficient rain. And yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ. And our activities should be only to perform yajña, to satisfy the Lord. Guest (1): But Sanskrit word for..., yajña? Haṁsadūta: Yajña, sacrifice. Guest (1): Yeah, yajña. *Prabhupāda: Yajña means to satisfy the Lord. Just like glorifying the Lord, that is also yajña. Saṅkīrtana*-yajña. Yajña means to satisfy the Lord. Do it anyway and there will be no scarcity. Everything will be all right. Annād bhavanti bhū... Guest (1): So sacrifice are we self, or ourself. That means sacrifice to the Lord. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice, there are different description of sacrifice. Just like one of the sacrifice is this chanting of the holy name of God. Yes. There are other sacrifices, offering in the fire, butter, grains. That is also sacrifice. But in this age, these things are almost not available. Therefore chant the holy name. This sacrifice is recommended. It does not cost anything. Simply God has given you the tongue, and you chant. Any poor man can do it. (pause) [break] ...excursion? No? (Chants japa softly) Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare R ā ma Hare R ā ma R ā ma R ā ma Hare Hare. Haṁsadūta: Cultured excursion. Prabhupāda: Yes. Weekly and planned. Guest (2) (French man): There is regularly pūjā in your community? Prabhupāda: Yes. Here also, there is temple. There is regular pūjā, six times. Guest (2): Offering light... Prabhupāda: Light, food, everything. Dress, bathing, so many things. If you receive me, you must give me something eatable. Simply light, how can I be satisfied? (laughter) If you give me simply light and no food then how can I be satisfied? Kṛṣṇa says, "Give Me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad ahaṁ aṣnāmi [Bg. 9.26]. "I will eat." [break] Haṁsadūta: Cigarettes. (chuckles) Prabhupāda: Tin can. You can get also tin can in the slot? What is that? Paying? Haṁsadūta: Oh yes. Anyone can get it. There's no restriction. Here's the car. (end) Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. I am so too. Prabhupāda: Recently we have published one booklet. It is written by one scientist, my student, The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pater Emmanuel: Thank you very much. It is translated in German too. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. This is just... I received a sample. Devotee: (German) Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, yes. Who is author, Svarūpa Dāmodara dāsa? Prabhupāda: He is my disciple. Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes. From India. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is in Cali... His description is there in the last page, his photograph. Pater Emmanuel: Oh, yes, I see. Vaiṣṇava, Manipur. Prabhupāda: He (indistinct) his MS from Buffalo University and his Ph.D, chemistry from California University. And he graduated himself from Gauhati University. Very learned scholar. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, I see. Prabhupāda: You are coming from? Pater Emmanuel: Near Passau, say, I think five hundred kilometers from here, with train, yes. I am coming yesterday in the evening to Frankfurt. In the morning I came to here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You can stay here. We have got place. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, tomorrow, till tomorrow. Devotee: He has a room upstairs. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, yes, thank you very much. I am Benedictine monk in a monastery. Prabhupāda: You are Roman Catholic? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Roman Catholic. But I follow the eastern rite of the Greek Orthodox church. In our monastery you get the two rites, the Roman Catholic and also the customs of life... It's like the Greek Orthodox monks. We also have the rosary. Prabhupāda: Like us. Pater Emmanuel: Yes. And continue also, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Also I repeat, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon me." Prabhupāda: Very good. You know Greek language? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: So you know the word Christo. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ. Prabhupāda: Christo means Christ. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, Christ, Kriza (?), Kristos, who is Christ by oil. Anointed. Christos, Christ, means anointed. It's the same word. It's the same form. Christo and Kristos in Greek is the same word, anointed. Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. So this Christo is the broken version of Kṛṣṇa. Pater Emmanuel: Ah, yes, I see. Very good, very interesting. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in India still, when calling for Kṛṣṇa, one says Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa means the attractor, the Sanskrit meaning, attractor, one who draws, draws everyone nearer. That is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa. And that all*-attractive drawer is God. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think so too. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it? Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think that Christ, (German) German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God... The name of God is Christ. Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ said to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why? Pater Emmanuel: We have name of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that? Pater Emmanuel: We talk God, "Father," or "our Father." Prabhupāda: No, "Father..." Just like your son may call you, "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. such and such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father, "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, God is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ or Jesus the son of Christ or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is... Either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, when we can't speak of a name of God, of a proper name... (German) German devotee: He says that when we speak of a real name of God, that is Christos. Prabhupāda: This Christos means Kṛṣṇa. (German) Pater Emmanuel: Because a name is of God. We know the name of God only by revelation, by revelation of the son of God because the son of God is also God. He has the three personality: God, father, son and holy ghost. And the son has revealed the name of father, and His name is, who has revealed is Christos, Christ. And also you can as a name or all you take Christ, Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: So it doesn't matter, Kṛṣṇa or Christ. The name is there. And we are recommending according to Vedic scripture that in this age one should simply chant the holy name of God. We are chanting that, Pater Emmanuel: Pure religion, yes, I see. Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure religion means bhakti. Pater Emmanuel: Mukti, yes. Prabhupāda: Bhakti. Pater Emmanuel: And mukti too. Prabhupāda: So bhakti means mukti is included. Without bhakti, there is no mukti. Therefore when one is on the platform of bhakti, he has already attained mukti. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I see. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa. German devotee: Prabhupāda: Let him... German translation will help you? Pater Emmanuel: Yes. French, in Hindi also and English I speak, but... (German) Prabhupāda: You read the purport. (Devotee reads in German) Pater Emmanuel: Brahman is not Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Brahman. Yes, He is Parabrahman. Parabrahman. Brahman is realized in three angles of vision: impersonal Brahman and localized Brahman, Paramātmā in the heart, and personal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Brahman because ultimately God is person. Yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. The exact Sanskrit word is vadanti tat tattva*-vidas tattvam [SB 1.2.11]. The Absolute Truth is described by the person who knows the Absolute Truth in three ways: brahmeti, the impersonal Brahman, paramātmeti, the localized Paramātmā, and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate feature of God, full with all six opulences, the richest, the strongest, the most famous, the most wise, the most renounced and most beautiful. These are the six features of the Personality of Godhead. Pater Emmanuel: That's very good. Prabhupāda: And His being Absolute, His name is not different from Him. The name and the form and the quality of God, they are all Absolute. Therefore chanting His name means associating with God. So when one associates with God, gradually He becomes godly. And when he is fully purified, then he becomes associate of God. (German) Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel ) But we can understand the name of God only in a negative way. Prabhupāda: No. God has unlimited potencies, and therefore He has got unlimited names. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, but we are limited. *Prabhupāda: We are limited, but God is not limited. Unlimited. And because He is unlimited, therefore He has got unlimited names, not one or two but unlimited names. There is a Sanskrit book, Aṣṭottara*-sahasra. There are 1,008 names of God. So 1,008 is also limited, but because we are limited, the God's names are given to us as far as we can understand. Otherwise He has got unlimited potencies, unlimited names. And each and every name is God because He is absolute. (German) Pater Emmanuel: Allow you a question? You know that we Christians are also preaching the love of God, and we seek to fulfill the love of God and to serve God with all our heart and soul. And what different from your movement who will the same? And why do you send your disciples in these Christian countries to preach the love of God when the gospel of Jesus Christ is also preaching the love of God, God love? Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: I agree. Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real. Pater Emmanuel: Will that means that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source? Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like. Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you. Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians, they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position. Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient. Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point. Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not? Pater Emmanuel: Um... Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: That's it. Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree. Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing. Pater Emmanuel: And you think it's a principle point, the top point. Prabhupāda: But if you miss one point, if you commit mistake in calculation in one point, the more you make calculation, add and subtract, it is all mistake. (German) Just like in the bank they daily make a trial balance, and if there is one mistake anywhere, the trial balance does not come. Pater Emmanuel: I understand. *Prabhupāda: This is called ardha*-kukkuṭī-nyāya [Cc. Ādi-līlā 5.176]. If you... I will explain. Ardha-kukkuṭī-nyāya means there is a logic of accepting half of the chicken. The chicken or what is called, cock, that? Haṁsadūta: Oh, the rooster, hens. Prabhupāda: Hens, rooster, rooster. No, the female is called hen? Haṁsadūta: Hen. Prabhupāda: Hen. The hen is giving egg and, by the backside, by the rectum, and eating by the mouth. So one man is considering that "This mouthpiece is expensive because I have to give to eat. Better cut it." So if the mouth is cut, then there will be no egg because it's a dead body. So this is not good logic, (laughing) that the expensive portion may be cut and the profitable portion may be kept. This kind of interpretation will not be helpful. If you accept the whole, this side and that side, then business will go on. (German) Pater Emmanuel: In the Christian tradition... (German) Prabhupāda: The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But they are killing. The first point is disobedient. Then where is love of God? Pater Emmanuel: (German) It is in the relation of man. "Don't kill," it says, the Christianity understands... *Prabhupāda: Why they understand like that? That means that Lord Christ was not sufficiently educated to use the right word, "murder"? Does it mean so? There are two words, killing and murder. Murder is especially meant for the human being. So do you think that Christ was not learned enough to use the word murder instead of "killing"? "Killing" means any kind of killing, especially animal killing. Otherwise you should have frankly openly used the word, "Thou shall not murder." Even if it is meant like that, so does it mean that he was preaching amongst the murderers? They are very first*-class men? They are all murderers? Therefore the injunction. This kind of interpretation does not appeal to us. (German) German devotee: He said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that this commandment, "Thou shall not kill," is found in the Old Testament, and when Jesus was talking... *Prabhupāda: I do not know many testament, but I see in the Ten Commandments these words are there. If you want to support it by many testaments, that is, of course, your business, but we take the direct meaning, "Thou shall not kill"*-the Christians should not kill. Interpretation you can give in your own way to support your business, but we see openly. If we can understand openly, there is no need of interpretation. (German) Pater Emmanuel: No, I understand. Prabhupāda: Why should we interpret? Interpretation is required when the things are not clear. Here it is clear, "Thou shall not kill," plainly advised. Why should we interpret? (German) German devotee: (translating for Pater Emmanuel:) To eat plants, is it not killing? To eat vegetables, is it not killing? Prabhupāda: Then vegetable killing and animal killing is the same? Pater Emmanuel: It's not the same. Not the same. But human killing and animal killing is also the same. Prabhupāda: So we are not killing. Our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we do not kill even vegetable because our Kṛṣṇa says... Find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. (German) German devotee: Should I read this in Sanskrit, Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi bhakty*-upahṛtam. German devotee: (reads translation in German) *Prabhupāda: So we offer Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants: "Give me this foodstuff," so we offer the foodstuff to Kṛṣṇa, and we take it. Therefore, if for killing this patraṁ puṣpam there is sin, that is Kṛṣṇa's sin, not my sin. (German) But Kṛṣṇa, God, apāpa*-viddham, sinful reaction cannot take place to Him. Apāpa-viddham. Pāpa means sinful. Just like the sun is powerful. It can absorb urine, but you cannot drink urine. (German) So the injunction is tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya [SB 10.33.29]. One who is very powerful... Just like a king. He orders, "Kill this man. Murder." He commits murder regularly, chopped up. But he is not under the law, being hanged, because he is very powerful. But an ordinary man, if he commits murder, he will be hanged. When there is fight the commander in chief says, "You kill them," and the soldier kills and he gets gold medal. But the same soldier, when he kills a single person at home, he is hanged. Therefore this injunction, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26], "This vegetables give Me. I shall eat, and you take the prasādam." So we are not sinful. Pater Emmanuel: And Kṛṣṇa cannot give the same permission for the animals? Prabhupāda: Yes, the animal kingdom in the nature's way... Just like the grass is the food of the cow, and the cow is the food for man, but not for civilized man, religious man. The crude man. (German) [break] The perfect human being is described: śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam. Find out. [break] ...killing of animals and child, Christ's name. Then it will be perfect. I have not come to teach you, but to request you that your Christian religion prohibit this and encourages chanting of name of the Lord. So you kindly do it, that's all. (German) Pater Emmanuel: Thank you. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are also chanting Christ or Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. So let us join to together and chant. If you have got objection to chant Kṛṣṇa, you chant Christ or Christo. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija*-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. He says that God has got many multi names. Any one of them you chant because each and every name has the same potency as God the person, because His name and He, there is no difference. And if we become designationless, if we give up these titles, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," and simply chant God's name, then we become on the spiritual platform immediately, without any discrimination that "Here is Hindu, here is Muslim, here is Christian, here is white, here is black," that. We are preaching that human form of life is meant for God realization or to learn how to love God. That is real business of human being. So either do it as a Christian or as a Muslim or as a Hindu, it doesn't matter. But do this business. (German) Pater Emmanuel: I agree. *Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa*-this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection? Pater Emmanuel: No. Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up... Pater Emmanuel: On my part, I... *Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty*-four hours. Actually this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen. Hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousands churches, but they are not going on. So this experience... In Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian preach in Boston, he issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?" Haṁsadūta: "How come it has expanded so quickly?" Pater Emmanuel: What was your answer? Prabhupāda: Answer. What the answer? Umāpati (?): Prabhupāda didn't understand, accepting him in German. Prabhupāda: No no. The answer I gave, you do not remember? Umāpati: Because they are intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Any intelligent man will understand what is religion, what is God, in five minutes. It doesn't require even five hours. In five minutes. Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I understand. Prabhupāda: But we do not want to understand. That is the difficulty. Yes? Guest: (German) German devotee: He believes that to understand God is not a question of intelligence but it is a question of humility. Prabhupāda: Yes. "The humble and meek shall go to the kingdom of God." Is it not? It is Bible statement? Haṁsadūta: "The humble and meek shall inherit the earth." Prabhupāda: So nowadays the rascal philosophy has spread that everyone is God, and therefore nobody is humble and meek. If everyone thinks that he is God, then why he should be humble and meek? So they are being educated how to become humble and meek. In the temple, to God, or to the spiritual master, the God's representative, they offer always respect by offering obeisances. That is humble and meek. They are doing very easily progress, you see, only on account of this humbleness and meekness. Even on the road, if they see me, they immediately fall down flat. Never mind there is dust. This very qualification is pushing them towards spiritual realization. In the Vedic scripture it is said, Pater Emmanuel: (German) German devotee: He is asking if he should not show this humility, attitude of humility, to all others. Pater Emmanuel: Exercise upon others. Prabhupāda: But just like special respect and ordinary respect. Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena. You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others. Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart. Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice. Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this... *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (everyone goes out*-end of this discussion) [Break] Guest: (German) *German devotee: (devotee translates for German man) Where is it written in Bhagavad*-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma, d*-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. German devotee: Yes, Seventh Chapter. Prabhupāda: Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end) Morning Walk -- June 27, 1974, Melbourne *Prabhupāda: ...has got this body of a tree and one has got the body of human being, demigod. So the reason is kāraṇam, kāraṇam means reason, guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya, as he is infecting the modes of material nature. Infection. If we infect some choleric diarrhea, we suffer. Nature's law is. Therefore human being should be cautious not to infect. Just like educated man or civilized man, he is cautious not to infect some kind of contaminated disease. Similarly, human form of body with higher consciousness is there just to remain always cautious not to infect material, I mean, modes of nature. And that is devotional service. Devotee: Haribol, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Haribol. Devotee: Say Haribol, Prabhupāda (talking to child). Prabhupāda: Oh, he has got beads? or what...? Madhudviṣa: No, those are mittens. (baby cries) Prabhupāda: That's all right, that's all right. [break] Madhudviṣa: ...to understand a mode. Is a mode a personality? Prabhupāda: Mode? What is the meaning of mode? Madhudviṣa: Mode. I do not know what a mode is. Prabhupāda: Mode means a... Madhudviṣa: Influence? Prabhupāda: ...situation. (end) Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne Reverend Powell: Your people have a serenity that many western people don't have. What, what is the secret of serenity? And is it... I gather you reject many material demands, materialism as such. Prabhupāda: Surrender is not material. Satsvarūpa: Serenity... Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness. Prabhupāda: Communist? Satsvarūpa: The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from? Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. Reverend Powell: From what? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one... Reverend Powell: Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā. These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God." No. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they... One of the qualifications is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty*-five qualifications of a devotee. *Reverend Powell: Twenty*-five? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: What are some of the others? Prabhupāda: Have you got the list? *Satsvarūpa: Friendly... Uh, it's in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Right here, Teachings of... Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: I don't... I believe, obviously, you would have ways, methods of becoming God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. What...? Sort of a meditation? Chanting? Or...? Prabhupāda: No, it is practical. What is it? Satsvarūpa: (Reading) It says, "There are many such qualities. Lord Caitanya described some of them. A devotee of the Lord is always kind to everyone. He does not..." Prabhupāda: First qualification. He is very kind to everyone. Yes. Then? Satsvarūpa: "He does not pick a quarrel with anyone. He takes the essence of life, spiritual life. He is equal to everyone. No one can find fault in a devotee. His magnanimous mind is always fresh and clean, without material obsessions. He is a benefactor to all living entities. He is peaceful. He is always surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. He has no material desire. He is very humble. He is fixed in his direction. He is victorious over the six material qualities, such as lust and anger. He does not eat more than what he needs. He is always sane. He is respectful to others, but for himself he does not require any respect. He is grave. He is merciful. He is friendly. He is a poet. He is an expert, and he is silent." *Reverend Powell: Well, they're all very good, aren't they? (laughs) And so in reading about Lord Kṛṣṇa, I take it that He performed many miracles of healing. I'm very interested in spiritual healing because in my ministry here in Australia I've been twenty-nine years in the Harley Streets, the streets of doctors. I'm now in Colin (?) Street. I was in McQuarrie Street in Sydney. And in Sydney I had forty*-one medical men on, and women, mainly men on my role of members, and we work very closely. This very day I've been working closely with a doctor with a certain patient who's having what is called a nervous breakdown. And we, over the years, have spent a lot of time with spiritual healing. Now, do you yourself practice spiritual healing? Prabhupāda: Hmm, no. Practically, we have very little suffering from disease. The devotees... We are spending so much money, but we don't spend for doctors' bill. You see? Reverend Powell: Well, normal doctors, but now, we explain to our patients that the doctor normally works with the physical level, and the psychiatrist works with the emotional mental level, but the church works with the spiritual level. And just as Jesus... Prabhupāda: Spiritual level means to cure his material disease. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: The material disease is birth, death, old age and disease. Reverend Powell: I'm sorry. I don't quite follow that. Satsvarūpa: He said the real disease is the material condition in which we have to suffer birth, death, disease and old age. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: So these things can be overcome by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reverend Powell: Umm... Yes, I see. On the point of reading... In this very interesting magazine and this... *Prabhupāda: You find out this verse of Bhagavad*-gītā. Reverend Powell: There was a reference to something you said about plants having a feeling. Some years ago I carried out an experiment at the request of one of our magazines in praying for plants and seeds growing and so on, and there seemed to be a relationship between these prayers for the plants and the opposite, in a negative way, against the plants. And I didn't have an opportunity to carry it out too far, much, but in two experiments, there was apparently a clear indication that the plants responded to prayer. And the peas and the beans in particular, (laughs) there was a significant, a very significant increase in the plants that were... *Prabhupāda: Hmmm. Find out. Jarā*-maraṇa-mokṣāya. Satsvarūpa: Reverend Powell: What does devotional service mean in that context? Prabhupāda: Purport? *Satsvarūpa: "Purport: Birth, death, old age and diseases affect this material body, but not the spiritual body. There is no birth, death, old age and disease for the spiritual body, so one who attains a spiritual body, becomes one of the associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and engages in eternal devotional service, is really liberated. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: I am spirit. It is said that one should understand that he is Brahman*-spirit soul. This Brahman conception of life is also in devotional service, as described in this verse. The pure devotees are transcendentally situated on the Brahman platform, and they know everything about transcendental and material activities." Reverend Powell: "Transcendental" means spiritual, does it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: As opposed to material. And... Prabhupāda: So they are always engaged in transcendental devotional service. Reverend Powell: Always. Prabhupāda: Always. Then they'll be freed from birth, death, old age and disease. Reverend Powell: And... Were the papers correct in reporting you as... Well, they reported opposite things that... But you, of course, hold to transmigration, I gather. And this is... Death really doesn't happen. It's a change of form. Is that it? Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as the..., everyone dies, so a devotee, after death, in his transcendental form, he goes, back to home, back to Godhead. Reverend Powell: Thank you. I take it from what you've just been saying, Your Grace, that this explains what is said here in the..., referring to illicit sex as being anything that's not in marriage and not for procreation within marriage. Prabhupāda: Only, the sex allowed only for begetting nice children. Reverend Powell: You don't feel that... Prabhupāda: And beyond that, sex, that is illicit sex. Reverend Powell: And that is out. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Reverend Powell: What is your attitude to Jesus? Prabhupāda: I have already explained in the meeting. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We, we respect him as transcendental representative of God, son of God. Yes. He's... Reverend Powell: Is there some sort of relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I mean... Prabhupāda: Yes, there is relationship. He's coming from Kṛṣṇa. He... Jesus the Christ. Christ means Christo or Kristo or Kṛṣṇa. Reverend Powell: Yes? Hm. Another thing. We, of course, have been impressed by the number of young Australians who have become interested in the Hare Krishna Movement and we really congratulate you, sir, on the very fine work (Prabhupāda chuckles) that you've done, and the ones who have rescued the ladies from the fire the other day. But I think everybody recognizes that they're most sincere, that they're not involved because they're not being blessed. They feel they're getting something out of it. But how do you explain... I gather that most countries, in Britain and America and so on that there are many thousands... Prabhupāda: In Africa. In China, in Japan. Everywhere. Reverend Powell: And now, how do you explain this? Why are people...? Why are...? Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation. Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they, you have all ages? Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive. Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system. Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay? Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta. Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago, I knew... Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta? Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this... Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they passed through Calcutta or Bombay, like that. Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We came by air. Was there some reference? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Read the purport. Reverend Powell: Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some get five and some ten. And... Prabhupāda: (aside:) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (handles paper wrapping) You can close the door. Devotee: Close the door. Prabhupāda: So all our disciples, they are young men. Reverend Powell: Yes, I noticed. Prabhupāda: Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time. Reverend Powell: (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, that some were given a few, and some were... Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then... Reverend Powell: What I'd like [break] I'd like to hear this, but... Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brāhmaṇa category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here. Reverend Powell: And this... Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa. Symptoms. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: This is first quality man. Reverend Powell: Well, there's a great similarity, isn't there, to the fruits of the holy spirit in the New Testament, with these qualities you've just... *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. When, when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first*-class man. Reverend Powell: Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of communism, Your Grace? Prabhupāda: Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state. Reverend Powell: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth, everything belongs to God*-that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area... Just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense, they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. National means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the communists or capitalists, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Your Grace, I was in Moscow, many years ago now. And everywhere I went in Russia, well right down to Stalingrad, as it was called then. They said, "This society is based on the principle, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.' " Now, I felt that in principle that was a very fine thing because it's based on the parable of the talents and the parable of what we call the penny wage, the same wage is paid to all however long they work because they all have the same need, really. That principle, I think, is a Christian principle, I mean from that point of view it is. But I see what you were saying earlier... *Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is not limited within Christian or communist or capitalist. Reverend Powell: No. *Prabhupāda: No. The principle... Wherever there are these talented persons, he is to be considered as first class man. He does not say that "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christians..." No. Anywhere. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. These guṇa, these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest. Because I am making them brāhmaṇa. My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brāhmaṇa. So the Indians, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion, because he's accepting brāhmaṇa from outside." So actually they're also not aware... Creation of God... Here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia. It is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men. Yes. This is the idea. So these people, they do not know what is the meaning of a Vaiṣṇava or brāhmaṇa. That is not limited with a certain circle or certain country or certain society. Just like Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill." This is applicable to every man. Not only that the Christians should follow. Unfortunately, Christians, they do not follow. They are killing. So how there can be religious life? Unless you follow the rules and regulations given by the authority, then where is the meaning of becoming within that community? Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: And God or God's representative, whatever they say, that is not meant for a limited area. Reverend Powell: Right. Prabhupāda: That is not. Either you take Christian principle or Hindu principle, what is real principle, really principle, that is applicable everywhere. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Christ said that "Thou should be, one should be meek and humble to go to, back to home, back to..." Eh? It is not? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So this is for everyone. Reverend Powell: Yeah. (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not limited within the Christian community. Everyone. Reverend Powell: Well, it's a great privilege to talk with you, Your Grace. And, uh, you must be tired, you've got a big day tomorrow. I'm mustn't keep you. If I may. Prabhupāda: Just here, please wait. Little, take little. Bring that sweetball. Sit down please, one minute. You have been today there today in meeting? Guest: Yes. I appreciated it very much. It was very nice... Prabhupāda: You were all present? Guest: Yes. Reverend Powell: You'll be pulling the chariot tomorrow, will you? Devotee: Yes. Reverend Powell: You've got a job on that. In the afternoon, isn't it? Tomorrow. I'll see something of it. Prabhupāda: These flowers are very nice. They are called? Devotee: Daffodil? Prabhupāda: Daffodils. Oh. Reverend Powell: No, jonquils, aren't they? Devotee: Jonquils. Prabhupāda: Very... Just see how God's artistic brain. Reverend Powell: Hmm. Yeah. Prabhupāda: You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere God, nothing but God. Reverend Powell: Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything is the God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God. Satsvarūpa: Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: You can, you can pick up. Reverend Powell: Made out of what? Satsvarūpa: Mostly out of milk and butter. Prabhupāda: Milk preparation. Reverend Powell: Thank you. And, um,... Prabhupāda: Yes, you can eat. Reverend Powell: Now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Thank you. (eats) Satsvarūpa: Very juicy. Reverend Powell: Hm. Very juicy. Hm.(laughs) Prabhupāda: All of them, give, each, one. We can prepare hundreds of nice preparations from milk. Therefore cow protection is required. Do you like? Guest: Very sweet, Prabhupāda. (laughter) Reverend Powell: Something quite different. Hmm. Devotee: Here, perhaps you can use this. Reverend Powell: Thank you. Yes, I think I need it. You, you, you're completely vegetarian, and not have meat of any kind and not eggs at all? Prabhupāda: No. Reverend Powell: Why not eggs? Because... Prabhupāda: We are not even vegetarian. Reverend Powell: You're not. *Prabhupāda: No. We are negative of vegetarian and non*-vegetarian. We are not vegetarian, neither non-vegetarian. We eat Kṛṣṇa prasāda. Rather, "prasādarian." We are neither vegetarian, nor non-vegetarian. Because we don't eat which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. Things are prepared according to the order of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa eats, we take the remnants of foodstuff. Therefore we do not fall in the group of vegetarian or non-vegetarian. We are transcendental. Reverend Powell: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reverend Powell: Well, thank you, Your Grace. If you'll excuse me, I have another appointment. Prabhupāda: Thank you. That's... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne Prabhupāda: ...dollar, three quarters. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And in your country... Satsvarūpa: That would cost around fifteen dollars or something. Prabhupāda: Just see. Still, India, I am surprised. Devotee: It's good quality as well. *Prabhupāda: Formerly we were paying two rupees. Two rupees, and if it is this name, at most, three rupees. Now the things have increased twice. Forty years ago that black Bhāgavata was bound only for two rupees. This is very nice one. In the U.S.A the binding cost is very, very... Just like Macmillan Company. Bhagavad*-gītā, hardbound, they charge ten dollars, ninety-five. And softbound, softbound, they charge four dollars. Six dollar difference on account of binding. So they have charged one dollar, seventy-five cents, and in America they charge six dollars. So all the fathers clapped for long. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: They appreciated. Devotee: Yes. Afterwards, Nick was speaking to one father from a different monastery, and he said he very much appreciated how much respect you had for other persons, that he could tell that you were really feeling respect for Lord Jesus. Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Devotee: He appreciated that very much. Prabhupāda: Yes. We must have respect. Respectable person must be respected. Otherwise, what it is? That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Amāninā mānadena. Don't expect any respect for yourself, but you offer respect to everyone. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Amāninā mānadena. For... In one's, oneself, what respect I have got? I am only most insignificant. Why people should respect me? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not worthy anything. That is for personal. But others, even he is an ant, he's respectful, must be respectful, must be offering respect even to an ant. Therefore that St. Francis... Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God. Any way, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood, actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind*-that the grain of rice is not man-made. It is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy. So God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything... Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda... Ānandamaya. That God is ānanda. So there is the sample of ānanda. So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ. What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very, great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only... Every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ... We pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and everything. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇavas is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God. That is stated in Devī Purāṇa: Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So... Just like if you have got your child on your lap, if some friends come and takes your child and pats him and kisses him, then you become pleased, immediately. "Oh, this gentleman loves my child so much." Similarly, if a Vaiṣṇava, a devotee, is respected, then Kṛṣṇa is more pleased. Therefore it is called, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādaḥ **. The respectful to guru makes easier to receive mercy from God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. What is the meaning? Satsvarūpa: "By the mercy of the spiritual master, one gets the blessings of Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is immediately pleased. "Oh, he's obedient and respectful to My devotee." It is in the same way, "Oh, he loves my child so much. He loves my dog." Dog is not qualified. But because the gentleman's dog is loved, the gentleman is pleased. This is counteractive. Similarly, a pure devotee, representative of God, if he is offered respect, that respect goes to God. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, you said that we should respect everyone as a devotee, but then also you teach that... Prabhupāda: No, no. By qualification, a Vaiṣṇava respects everyone. Satsvarūpa: But then there's also a teaching not to respect a nondevotee even if he's a big man. We may formally offer him respect, but if... *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy*-that is etiquette-comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect: "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that "He's my enemy." That... The etiquette according to Vedic civilization: gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum... That was... Just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with you..." [Break] Unless one of the kings died... [Break] ...a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have... Where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still, they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha. (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha. Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas, they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, "It is I am," they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say, "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha. Therefore it is said... The mūḍha cannot explain all... And at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future, we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future. The future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history... In the history the future is past. This is common sense. So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum that future will never come. And still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come. And still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha. This is the explanation of mūḍha. It is just like somebody offered you a post-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say, "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect. Devotee: In Australia? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The Attorney, in the... Attorney*-General of the Federal Government. You saw that? Satsvarūpa: I didn't see the paper. Prabhupāda: They have recognized, bona fide religious sect. (pause) So the priestly order this morning, they liked it very much. Devotee: I think so, yes. Prabhupāda: This gentleman, he's also a priestly... *Satsvarūpa: At seven*-thirty the Catholic bishop is coming, very high-ranking in the church. Prabhupāda: What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten after six, quarter after six. (end) Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne Prabhupāda: : ...comfortable, it will never become (indistinct). Do you understand this? Fish is taken from the water and you put on the land, so you may give the fish very velvet cushion and anything, all nice thing, but will, the fish will be comfortable? Guest (1): No. Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you... We living entities, we are spirit soul. We are not this material body. Unfortunately our system of education is so dull that the authorities do not know that we are not this body, we are spirit soul. Still, they are big, big philosopher, big, big politician and big, big leader and social authorities. But real thing is mistaken. He is accepting this body as self, or he is thinking that "The bodily comforts will make me happy." But that cannot be because the body is made of matter and we are spirit soul. The same thing: From water, you catch the fish and put on the land; it will never be happy. So long you'll continue to have this material body, there cannot be any happiness. And so many problems. The main problem is birth, death, old age and disease. So this is due to this material body. Therefore an intelligent man should know that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul; my field of activities are on the spiritual platform; and then I will be happy." So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means educating people how to be situated on the spiritual platform and be happy. This is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): So then... Guest (2): Your Divine Grace, do you think that chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is the only way to achieve liberation? Prabhupāda: Yes. The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means Kṛṣṇa, the Lord, and Hare, or Harā, means Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like you are there, the heater is there and the heating energy is there, similarly, Kṛṣṇa is there and Kṛṣṇa's energies are there. Just like the sun is there, and the sun's energy is there, the sunshine, heat and light. Is it not? There is heat and light. That is from the sun. But still, the heat and light is different from the sun. Suppose you are in the sunshine. In one sense you are in the sun, and in other sense you are not in the sun because sun's temperature is so high, had you been in the sun, you would have been immediately blown up, burned into ashes. But you are in the sunshine, the energy of sun. So, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is situated as the supreme fire, and whatever we are experiencing, that is His energy. Although sun is... The example, sun is 93,000,000 miles away, but (on) account of the sun's energy spread, we are feeling the presence of sun. Similarly, we have to associate with God, Kṛṣṇa, by chanting His holy name because Kṛṣṇa, being Absolute, He is not different from His name, and therefore, if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense, then you directly associate with Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): In all scriptures that I have read, it's always said that the disciple, the devotee, must remember God's name or remember it constantly, and so you are saying that the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is God's name. How do we know this? Prabhupāda: How do you know your name? Guest (2): My parents gave it to me. Prabhupāda: So authority. Similarly, from authority you have to know what is the name. Guest (2): From the scriptures. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about other religions such as Christianity and... Prabhupāda: There is no second religion. There is only one religion. That is God consciousness. Now, as soon as you designate, "Christian," "Hindu," "Muslim," that is upādhi, designated religion. Just like you are here and you are in black coat. So if I say, "Black Mr. such and such," so to say, "Black Mr. such and such," there is no need. "Mr. such and such" is sufficient. But we have been accustomed to say like that, "Black Mr. such and such, white Mr. such and such." Similarly, religion is one, but due to our sophisticated mind, we call it "Christian religion," "Hindu religion," "Muslim religion." Why don't you come in? Why are you outside? Devotee: I have my working clothes on, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: All right. So there cannot be... but for particular reason or circumstances we call it, but religion is one. That means to abide by the laws of God. That is religion. If you do not know what is God, what is His law, that is another thing. But the religion means to abide by the laws of God, that's all. It cannot be Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Just like the state law. So there are many persons, citizens of the state. The law is not that it is for the Christians, it is for the Jews, it is for the Negroes, it is for the white man. It is not like that. Law is the same for everyone. You can call it, "This is Negro law, this is white law, this is black law..." No. That is not very scientific. Scientific is that God is there and we are all... God is great, we are all subordinates and we have to obey the orders of God. That is religion. Am I right or wrong? Guest (2): You're right. Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot say, "Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion." Religion is religion. That's... God is neither Hindu, Muslim, Christian. God is God. God is one. We... It may be that God is one, but we understand Him from different angles of vision, and that different angles of vision may be called as Christian angle vision, the Hindu angle vision, this Jew's angle vision. But that is angle of vision. Now, just like the sun is there. Here we see it is not so bright, but you ask some Arabian friend. What is, he will say, "it is very bright." So his appreciation of the sun is different from your appreciation here. It is cloudy; it is misty. But the sun is the same. There is no such thing as Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion. It is all sophisticated. Religion is one. You must know what is God, and you must know what is order and abide by it. You are religious. That's all. We are preaching that. Guest (2): Your Divine Grace, since religion is one, do you think man will enter into a golden age in which he will accept one God? Prabhupāda: If they do not accept, they are foolish, if God is one. God cannot be two. Guest (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the purpose of human life to realize God? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only purpose. Except this purpose, fulfilling, anything we are doing, that is animalism. As the dog is jumping we are also jumping like that. It is dog's dancing, that's all. What is the difference? A dog is thinking, "I am very strong dog. I am this." And another man-"I am Englishman. I am..." So what is the difference? Mentality is the same. To think of this body that "I am this body," that is required to the dog, to the man. When one understands that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," that is humanity. Guest (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, have you realized God? Prabhupāda: What do you think? What is your opinion? Guest (3): I can't say. Prabhupāda: Then if I say, "yes," then what you will understand? If you are not yourself expert, then even if I say, "Yes, I am God realized," how you will take it as truth? If you do not know what is God realization, then how you can ask this question and how you will be satisfied by the answer? You do not know. Guest (3): Well, what is God realization? Prabhupāda: Then... Then you were asking, "Are you God realized?" If I say, "Yes," then how you'll believe it? You do not know what is God realization. Then why do you put this question? You do not know yourself. If I say,"Yes," how you'll understand that I am right? Therefore you should not put all these questions. It has no value. You do not know yourself what is God realization. Now, just like a medical man, if he asks another man, medical man, so if he says, "Yes," then medical man will understand him by technical terms whether he is medical man. So unless one is medical man, what is the use of asking another man, "Are you medical man?" Unless you are prepared to take the answer whatever I give. Are you prepared? Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. I am. I am seeing God every moment. So unless we are prepared to take the answer, we should not put ourself... Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, do you see meditation as a means to God realization? *Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation is also one means, but you cannot meditate now because you do not know what is God. How you will meditate? Meditation upon something, but if you do not know what is God, upon whom you'll meditate? First of all you must know. Just like we know God, Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "Always think of Me." This is meditation. So we meditate upon Kṛṣṇa, so that is perfect meditation because meditation means to think of God. But if you do not know what is God, how you will think of Him? Guest (2): It is written in many scriptures that God is light. Prabhupāda: God is everything. God is darkness also. We say, "God is that from whom everything comes." So light also comes; darkness also comes. So darkness also comes from God. Guest (3): Do you think meditation is a way to see God inside yourself? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the description of meditation. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. The yogis, by their mind concentrating upon God, they try to see Him. So you must know what is God. Just like our institution, they know what is God, description of God. They can think of God. But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of Him? Guest (2): In your books you talk about Brahmaloka, which, I suppose is heaven. Prabhupāda: No, there are many lokas. Heaven also one of them. Brahmaloka also one of them. Don't you see so many planetary system. So there are innumerable planets. Some of them may be Brahmaloka, Candraloka, Varuṇaloka, Sūryaloka, and so many others. So Brahmaloka is one of the planets. Guest (2): So that is actually a physical planet? Prabhupāda: Don't you see physical planets? The sun is not a physical planet? Guest (2): It is. Prabhupāda: What do you mean by physical? Guest (2): Well, actually existing on a material... Prabhupāda: So don't you see existing so many planets, at night, innumerable? What they are? Guest (2): Stars and planets, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): So actually heaven is... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Guest (2): ...in this material universe? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you say, "United States of America," that's actually a place. There are living entities. There are men and mountains, rivers. Everything is there. Similarly, all these planets, they are inhabited by living entities. There are similarly cities and towns and mountains and rivers and oceans. Everything is there*-of different pattern. Just like the moon planet. It is... The temperature is 200 degree below zero. So you cannot go and live there. But there are living entities who can live there. Just like even on this planet, there are living entities in the Arctic region, but for us it is very difficult to live there. And there are different climatic influences. Even on this planet. One place is suitable for one kind of man, another place is suitable for another. Just like we are Indian. We cannot tolerate such, I mean, what is called, pinching, cool. So similarly, in India you cannot tolerate scorching heat. So for each and every planet there are different patterns of living entities. They can live. Just like you cannot live within water. For that reason you cannot say nobody can live in the water. That is foolishness. You cannot live. You say. So there are so many fishes, varieties of fishes. They are living. Don't carry your present experience to others. That is not very good argument. Now, here the so-called scientists, they are saying in other planets there is no living entity. Why? They are putting so many reasons, that "This is lacking. This is lacking." But what do you know, what is lacking and how...? These things are not accepted. You do not know anything about the other planets. How you say there is no living entity? Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, is there a Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement in India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): How strong is it? Prabhupāda: How strong? As strong as you think because in every village, every town, every home, there is Hare Kṛṣṇa, still. Guest (2): Your Divine Grace, do you see a time coming when all mankind will be united? Prabhupāda: That is very difficult to say, but we can be united on the spiritual platform not on the material platform. It is not possible. Guest (2): Do you think that that is, that stage is possible within this generation? *Prabhupāda: It is possible at any time provided people take to spiritual life, but they'll not take to it. For example, one of the items of spiritual life is no meat*-eating. So do you think this philosophy will be taken by everyone? And this is one of the items of spiritual life, no meat-eating. Guest (2): Is that a necessary... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without... If you don't stop meat*-eating, you cannot understand what is spiritual life. A sinful life cannot understand what is God, what is devotion. It is not possible. Guest (2): And is that the same for others...? *Prabhupāda: The sinful, yes. Four items we prohibit our students. They do not indulge. Illicit sex life, meat, fish, egg*-eating, intoxication up to cigarette smoking, drinking tea, coffee, and gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So unless one gives up these four things he cannot understand what is God, what is God's kingdom, what is our business. Nobody can understand. Guest (2): Drinking tea and coffee also? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is also intoxication. Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, in a lot of scriptures I read there is a lot of references to breath and the breath as being the... Prabhupāda: Breathing. Guest (3): Breathing... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): ...it's a source of God. And there are some yogas which concentrate on the breath. Prabhupāda: Yes. There are different airs within the body and controlling the airs and putting this soul... Soul is already floating in the air. So the yogi mystic process can bring the soul from different places, and then they bring it here and they ascertain where he has to go, and then, from this hole... What is called, this hole? *Madhudviṣa: Brahma*-randhra. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-randhra, we say. Satsvarūpa: Skull. Devotee: Cerebellum? Cerebral...? Prabhupāda: There is some hole. From that hole the soul goes out to any planet he likes. That is perfection of yoga. But here in your country the yoga means a certain type of exercise. Yes. *Guest (2): And this path of devotional yoga, bhakti*-yoga, that is the path for this time, for this age? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti*-yoga is the real yoga. You'll find in Bhagavad-gītā when yoga system is described the Lord says, Guest (2): If you are to think about something, don't you first have to see that thing? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Well are you showing your devotees Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. Guest (2): Then what is...? Well, what is Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Then ask them, who has seen already. Ask them. They'll tell you what is Kṛṣṇa. But the same thing. If he says something about Kṛṣṇa, you will accept it? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: You will accept? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then see. Here is Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): But that's a painting. Prabhupāda: That is painting. Suppose your painting is there. Can I not say that "Here is Mr. such and such?" Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Then what is the wrong there? Guest (2): Well, the artist would have been looking at me to paint the picture of me. Prabhupāda: No, no, your photograph is not yourself? Guest (2): Yes it is. Prabhupāda: Yes, similarly, it is Kṛṣṇa's painting. But the difference is that you cannot talk with your photograph, but we can talk with Kṛṣṇa's photograph. That is the difference. Guest (2): But some of these pictures are slightly different. They show different... *Prabhupāda: No, no, on principle it is, as Kṛṣṇa's color is there, Kṛṣṇa's flute is there, Kṛṣṇa's peacock feather is there, these things... These are described in the śāstra. Veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda*-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁ samasitāmbuda-sun... [Bs. 5.30]. So Kṛṣṇa's... Suppose even a painting of yourself. One man paints a little different from your face. Another man paints. But on the whole, it is the same. In that way Kṛṣṇa is not depending on the painting but on the features of His description as it is in the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa's color is described there. Kṛṣṇa's peacock feather is described there. Kṛṣṇa's flute is there. Kṛṣṇa's ever eternal consort... Praṇaya-keli. In loving mood always, Kṛṣṇa... Praṇaya-keli-kalā-vilāsam. He's always in enjoying spirit. So we get idea. Idea of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa being Absolute, the idea of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is nondifferent. Guest (2): But if a painter was to paint a picture of me or of Allen or of anybody, first they'd take the subject, and the subject would be a living person, and then they would paint the picture and the picture would be in... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Subject is there, that "Kṛṣṇa's color is bluish, Kṛṣṇa has got in His hand a flute, Kṛṣṇa has got a peacock feather on His head, Kṛṣṇa stands, little curving." Tri*-bhaṅga-lalitam. Tri-bhaṅga means in three ways He is curved. You see. Tri-bhaṅga. Three, three times He is curved. Śyāmaṁ tri-bhaṅga-lalitaṁ niyata-prakāśam [Bs. 5.31]. These are the description of the Vedas. Just like my students, they have painted so many pictures, so I have given simply the hints that "This picture should be like this." So they take note and make the picture, and people very much appreciate our picture. So you can paint pictures by taking hints from the authority. That is going on. So if you are intelligent, you can make almost like that. Guest (2): But still, somebody must have seen Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): ...to actually paint Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Seen Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa, when He was present on this earth, so many people saw Him. And since then, there are so many temples of Kṛṣṇa's Deity, Kṛṣṇa's form. The same thing, as it is stated in the Vedic literature, they saw also personally, and they made statues, and they are being worshiped regularly. There are thousands of thousands of temples of Kṛṣṇa. So they are worshiped. Guest (2): But has anybody actually seen Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Today? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like your grandfather has seen your father, or your father has seen your grandfather. You may not have seen, but your father can describe about your grandfather, "My father was like this, like this, like this." What is the difficulty? Satsvarūpa: He asked if anyone now has seen Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: How now one can see? He has to see through the paramparā, succession. You have not seen your great*-grandfather. How do you know that he was? How do you know? Great-grandfather or his father, you have not seen. How do you believe? Guest (2): By your parents telling you. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore you have to receive the knowledge from the authorities, paramparā. Guest (2): But supposedly, Kṛṣṇa is eternal or, that is, indestructible. So surely He must be existing today. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is existing. Just like at night the sun is existing, but you have no eyes to see him. That does not mean sun does not exist. It is your deficiency. You cannot see. Guest (2): So we need divine sight. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you require qualification. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is always existing. You require the qualification. That is described in the... Premāñjana*-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti: [Bs. 5.38] "Those who are saintly persons and in ecstatic love with Kṛṣṇa, they are seeing twenty-four hours Kṛṣṇa." That is not very difficult to understand. If you love somebody, you are seeing him or her always. Is it not? Guest (2): That's so. *Prabhupāda: That's it. It requires the qualification of love. Then Kṛṣṇa will be visible twenty*-four hours. He'll talk with you. These things are described. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam [Bg. 10.10]. That means talks. "I give him intelligence." That means unless He talks, how He can give intelligence. "You do this?" So you have to qualify yourself to hear Kṛṣṇa, to see Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is always present. Guest (4): Your Divine Grace, there are many swamis and gurus and religious people throughout the world. How does one know which is the true guru? Prabhupāda: One who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Otherwise a rascal. That's all. Guest (4): What is the test of a true guru? Prabhupāda: He will describe about Kṛṣṇa. He will ask you to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. His business is to propagate Kṛṣṇa. That is the symptom of guru. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we don't know what Kṛṣṇa is and we still get a bona fide spiritual master, then how do we call that? Our good fortune? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in Caitanya... Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona, some fortunate person, not all. Satsvarūpa: What chapter is it? Prabhupāda: See the contents. Satsvarūpa: "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī." Then the next chapter is Sanātana Gosvāmī. Prabhupāda: What is that? There is no pagemark? "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī"? *Satsvarūpa: Yes, there is one chapter. I am looking through the chapter, from the page twenty*-one to thirty-nine. Prabhupāda: That is "Teachings to Rūpa..." Satsvarūpa: It's called "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī." Prabhupāda: So you can go on reading it, where it is stated that "In this way, wandering, the living entity by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, fortunate..." It is on the beginning of the... Why don't you read the chapter. Satsvarūpa: (reading) "Within this brahmāṇḍa or universe there are innumerable living entities..." Prabhupāda: Yes. *Satsvarūpa: " ...and according to their own fruitive activities they are transmigrating from one species of life to another and from one planet to another. In this way their engagement in material existence is being continued since time immemorial. The living entities are atomic parts and parcels of the supreme spirit. There is, however, a measurement for the length and breadth of the atomic spiritual spark. It is said in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, Eighty-seventh Chapter, thirty-sixth verse, that if you divide the top of a hair into one hundred parts and again if you divide one part of that into another one hundred parts, such 1/10,000th part of the tip of a hair is the length and breadth of the individual soul. This is also confirmed in the Vedas in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad. This atomic magnitude of the individual living entity is again described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, Sixteenth Chapter, eleventh verse, as follows. This is a speech given by one of the four Kumāras known as Sunanda on the occasion of performing a great sacrifice. He said, 'O supreme truth, if the living entities were not infinitesimal sparks of the supreme spirit, then each minute spark would have been all-pervading and there would be no necessity of its being controlled.' " *Prabhupāda: That is very... Otherwise... If the living entity is equal to the Supreme Being, then... Suppose you are a living entity. You could speak everything of what is going on in others' mind or body. You cannot say what I am thinking. I cannot say what you are thinking. Therefore I or you are not all*-pervading. We are limited. And that is living entity. This is a very nice example. Go on. Satsvarūpa: "But if the constitution of the living entity is accepted as being the minute part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, then automatically he becomes a controlled living entity under a supreme energy or power. This is his constitutional position. Therefore if he remains as he is created in that natural position, he can attain..." *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are created as being controlled. So instead of aspiring to become controller, if we remain controlled, that is our natural position. But some rascals, they are trying to become controller, "I am... By meditation I have become God." But if you are a God, then how you have become dog? This is going on. The cheating, the so*-called swamis. Do they not say, "I am God?" Do they not say? "I am God. You are God. Everyone God." Guest (2): No, some... Some might say that, but... Prabhupāda: But some of them, I am talking, the some of them. Some of them are not all foolish. Some of them are foolish. So these foolish persons, they say that "I am God. You are God. Everyone is God." That is foolishness. We are not God. We are part and parcel of God, qualitatively one. But we are not the Supreme Being. We are living being but not Supreme Being. Guest (2): God is inside us. Prabhupāda: God is inside, outside, everywhere. Guest (3): Who do you think Jesus Christ was? Prabhupāda: Now, let us finish one. Jesus Christ himself said that he is son of God. That's all right. That's all right. Guest (2): But if you take a drop of water and you merge it back into an ocean... This is an example that is often given by these masters, that if you take a drop of water and you put it into an ocean, that drop becomes one with that ocean. Prabhupāda: The drop of water becomes ocean? Guest (2): No, but it becomes merged in that ocean. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Merging is different. But the ocean remains the ocean. Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: And you remain the drop. That's all. Because... Now, suppose your body, material body*-earth, water, air, fire-now, when this body will be decomposed, so this form will not remain. Does it mean that your body has become the whole universal material elements? Guest (2): No. But surely body is different from soul. Prabhupāda: That body is a drop in the bigger material elements. That does not mean your body has become the whole material elements. Similarly, a drop of ocean water is drop always. It does not become ocean. It appears that it is mixed up. But mixed up does not mean the drop will become as ocean. That is not the fact. Guest (3): When they say the drop mixes with the ocean... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (3): ...it's like the human finite form merging with the infinite, and then it acquires the powers of infinite... Prabhupāda: Mixes means... Just like, the example is given: just like a green bird enters into a tree which is also green. So if... To my eyes it appears that the bird is mixed up, but actually that is not fact. Suppose an aeroplane, you see aeroplane is going on. Then, after some time you see there is no aeroplane. It is the same sky. It has mixed up. It has not mixed up. Your eyes are defective. It appears like mixed up. But it cannot mix up. The airplane is keeping its identity. The bird is keeping its identity. Guest (2): Is the human soul then limited or unlimited? Prabhupāda: Limited. Guest (2): Limited? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): That it has boundaries and...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are limited, therefore you are under the control of material nature. That is being explained there. He is limited. If he keeps his limited existence, that is nice. But unnecessarily, if he wants to become unlimited, that is artificial. How it can be? *Guest (2): I seem to remember reading a chapter of the Bhagavad*-gītā that said... I can't quite remember what chapter it was, but it said that... Kṛṣṇa was talking to Arjuna, and it said that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "When you realize Me or when you realize God, or Kṛṣṇa, you will see the whole of creation with inside..." Prabhupāda: Hm? "You?" Guest (2): "You will see the whole of creation (sic:) withinside Me and withinside yourself." Is that a true translation? Prabhupāda: Where it is? Cāru? Devotee Cāru?: "You will see all beings in Me and Me in all beings." Prabhupāda: So what is that? Does it mean all beings in Kṛṣṇa? Guest (2): The translation that I read also said, "Withinside yourself." *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, He, as Paramātmā, is everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. But that does not mean everyone is Kṛṣṇa. You are in this room. That does not mean you are room. Guest (2): So we are in God, and God is in us? Prabhupāda: Yes. Without God we have no existence. *Satsvarūpa: "A true yogi observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self*-realized man sees Me everywhere." That's different. Guest (4): Your Divine Grace, do you think that every human being will become liberated? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Aiye. Guest (2): Thank you very much for your time. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne Prabhupāda: ...in the beautiful tomb. Then how do you go? Either hell or heaven, that doesn't matter. So how do you go there? Madhudviṣa: They say that the material body and the soul join back together again at the end. *Prabhupāda: That is dehāntara*-prāpti, another body. Madhudviṣa: No, they say same body. Prabhupāda: Same body means same material body. The form may be different. The form is actually different, because this form is lying in your tomb. It is not going. Where that... If it has gone, then why the body is here? That is dehāntara, another body. How you can say the same body? The same body is lying here. After death, if the same body is going, then why the same body is not going? Why it is lying here? They must be reasonable, not dogmatic. How it is same body? Satsvarūpa: I don't understand their philosophy. Prabhupāda: Pure nonsense. Same body, how can you? The body is here. Madhudviṣa: The body is rotting in the tomb, and then they say that the body at the end of the creation is reconstructed and reunited with the soul. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but not this body. Reconstruct. Madhudviṣa: That they say, this body. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. This body, you can say, this is material body; that is also material body. But not this body. Just like you change your cloth. The other cloth also made of cotton, and this is also made of cotton. In the same way, you can say, "the same body," cotton body or dress. But you cannot say that this cloth or this dhoti is going with you. How they can say? This body is lying here. This body means this material body. Madhudviṣa: They will say, "Some things you cannot understand. You must simply accept on faith." *Prabhupāda: "You cannot understand"*-that is also good. Suppose a child cannot understand. But there must be some explanation. Otherwise, how in advanced stages one can accept. They will say, "dogmatic." This body means this material body, and this material body has got so many shapes, 8,400,000. So hell means... This is also hellish. A tree is standing for five thousand years or five hundred years. Is it not hellish? If I ask you, "Stand here for five days," you will die. (laughing) If there is such order from the government, "You stand here for so many days..." Satsvarūpa: Naked. Naked too. Prabhupāda: Naked. This is hellish. (dog barking) Now this, another hellish life. His only business is to bark. The master may like to keep a dog, but if he is said that "You also become a dog," he will not agree. Will he agree? Madhudviṣa: But whether he agrees or not, he will become one, if he is too much attached. [break] ...the chief engineer of building the chariots, and all of these people are his assistants. *Prabhupāda: Jagannātha will be very much pleased upon you. Yes. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Little service to God is taken as great service. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. So we should try always to give the best service, best energy, and you become liberated. Actually we cannot give any service to Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. What is the value of our service? But He takes it seriously: "Oh, he is trying to give me some service." Otherwise what service He needs from us? Suppose He has created these big universes, what service we can give? By His will, He can create millions of universes. What service we can give? We... No. These are the chances of service, this Ratha*-yātrā. God is so great, so big, how we can pack up in the ratha. But this is a chance, that you get Him sit on the ratha and prepare it, manufacture it. Because your energy is engaged for His service, that is accepted. So this example... Just like a small child eating lozenges, and out of that, if he offers father, "Father, take it," and father takes it very serious..., "Ah, very nice." And what is that lozenges to the father? It is nothing. But because the child offers to the father in love, father takes it very seriously: "Oh, you are so nice. Yes, yes, give me." That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: [Bg. 9.26] "A leaf, a fruit, a little water." What is the value of these? But yo me bhaktyā prayacchati: "Because he is giving Me in faith and devotion, I accept it." And what is this one piece of leaf and a fruit for God? It is nothing. He is being served by many thousands of goddess of fortune. Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambrahma-sevyamānam. Then what is the value of this leaf and flower and fruit? But still, He says, tad aham aśnāmi: "Yes, I eat them." And once God eats from your hand, then your life is successful. Madhudviṣa: Sometimes a question is arisen that devotees are working hard to serve Kṛṣṇa, but sometimes they don't feel that they are working in love and devotion. They are doing the work, but sometimes... *Prabhupāda: Yes, in the beginning there is no love. Let him work on the direction of God's representative. [break] Therefore it has been warned, arcye viṣṇau śilā*-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. The Deity of Viṣṇu, if one thinks, "This is made of stone; this is made of wood; *this is made of metal," and spiritual master as ordinary human being, these are hellish considerations. Arcye viṣṇau śilā*-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guruṣu means the spiritual master. Nara-matiḥ, a ordinary human being. And vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. And Vaiṣṇava, a devotee-"Oh, he is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava. He is European Vaiṣṇava. He is this Vaiṣṇava, that..." No. These are forbidden. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava. Spiritual master... They are all transcendental. In... of course, in this country you are introducing new, but in India... Just like we had been at Tirupati, Tirumala. Many thousands of people were coming, and their daily collection is not less than 100,000 rupees. And do you think these people are coming to offer these 100,000 rupees daily to a stone? And the ācāryas established this temple for bluffing these people? Does it mean, their collecting? They do not know the science, rascals. And therefore simply... Sinful life cannot help. Vinā paśughnāt [SB 10.1.4]. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that "One who is killer of animal, he cannot understand the spiritual science." Vinā paśughnāt [SB 10.1.4]. This is the statement. Paśughna means the animal killer. Therefore the first prohibition is stop this animal killing. Otherwise, this dull brain will not be able to understand. They are not fit for understanding. Mūḍha, mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Duṣkṛtina means always engaged in sinful activities. They have got brain but their brain is being utilized only for sinful activities, they are called duṣkṛtina. Kṛtī, kṛtī means good brain, and duṣkṛtī means brain is being utilized for sinful act. Therefore they are mūḍha. In spite of good brain, they are rascals, because brain is being utilized for sinful activities, how to set up up-to-date machinery for killing animals. Brain is being used for this purpose. Any animal can be killed with ordinary knife, but they're manufacturing latest machinery. Their brain, rascal brain is being used for that purpose. And what they will understand? They are preparing their road for going to hell. What they will understand about spiritual matters? Nature will not excuse. That is not possible. [break] That is sufficient for your being killed. Yes, sir. Wherefrom these laws come unless there is God's laws? Everyone will be killed. They are thinking that "We are not going to slaughterhouse to kill. They kill; *we purchase." The Buddhist says like that. Everyone says like that. Therefore, according to Vedic scripture, those animal*-eaters, they should kill them personally so that they can see how much suffering is there, so he will stop. But now the things are being done in the slaughterhouse. They do not see. They purchase very nicely packed. They do not know. And they are becoming implicated. Therefore, according to Vedic injunction, if you want to eat meat, you kill yourself in your front, in the front of goddess Kālī. So that the animal will get next life as human being. He is promoted immediately. He hasn't got to go to the evolutionary process. He gets immediately. And it is given right that "After you get human form of (life), you can kill this person." You see? This is the process of bali-dāna, mantra and everything. [Break] ...regulation that... that is not cow. An insignificant animal, goat... (end) Room Conversation with Bishop Kelly -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne Bishop Kelly: Are you feeling the cold in Melbourne your grace? Prabhupāda: This heating is there. Bishop Kelly: Ah, yes. But when you go outside do you feel...? Prabhupāda: I go outside. Bishop Kelly: Yes, but when you go out do you feel it? Prabhupāda: I feel... I cover sufficiently, that's all. Bishop Kelly: Ah, yes. How long are you staying here for? Prabhupāda: Up to second. Bishop Kelly: This is your first visit to Australia? Prabhupāda: No. This is the fourth time. Bishop Kelly: Is it? *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā about this feeling is stated, Satsvarūpa: English? Prabhupāda: No, you read the Sanskrit. *Satsvarūpa: (Reads Sanskrit) "O son of Kuntī, the non*-permanent appearance of happiness and distress and their disappearance in due course are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed." Prabhupāda: Purport. Prabhupāda: Duty has to be done despite all inconveniences. That is very important thing. The example is given that one has to take bathing early in the morning, but because it is cold, one cannot avoid it. He must bathe. This morning we had some meeting... [break] ...a little boy, but he was a great devotee, and father was a great atheist. So he was surprised that his son became so great devotee. After all, as a father he asked him, "My dear boy, what nice thing you have learned by your education?" He said, "My dear father, the best thing I have learned, that people are always full of anxiety on account of accepting material..." [break] ...exactly the same thing as you were... So one thing is that formerly it was the practice to go to the forest, go to the Himalaya, but in this age this is not possible. Therefore we have to take shelter of the Lord wherever we are, and that is Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. *Bishop Kelly: Well, of course, the difficulty as you rightly point out many times there, that man in the present day civilization, he is so often mesmerized, he is captivated by what he sees in front of him... It is the modern garden of Eden that he sees. He sees many delectable apple trees, so to speak, and he feels in the new vaunted value given to personalism and the expression of self, and the self*-seeking, that he reaches out towards those things, and I'm afraid that in many cases the difficulty is to convince him that he is only getting poor substitutes until he has tasted and eaten and tried to digest and finds, you know, that there is no satisfaction, there is no wholesome food to be found there. *Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam by... That is also statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja, this boy devotee. He says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: [SB 7.5.31] "These foolish people, they do not know, what is their actual self-interest." So he says, "They do not know the actual self-interest is approaching God. That is real self-interest. But they do not know it." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā [SB 7.5.31]. "They have made their plan wrongly to become happy in this material world." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ means external: "They have taken the external energy, the material world, as very important. And the leaders also, the so-called leaders... They are being led. The leaders, they are blind, and they are leading some other blind men without knowing that they cannot be happy in that way because he is under strict, stringent laws of nature, material nature." That Bhagavad-gītā therefore recommends, Bishop Kelly: I think I left my glasses in the car. Prabhupāda: Oh. Just try this glass. (laughter) Bishop Kelly: Could be. Yes, all right, I think. Yes. Prabhupāda: "Birds of the same feather." (laughter) Bishop Kelly: Oh, yes. Your Grace, there is one thing I wish to ask you. Do you believe in some sort of universal but inherent deficiency in human nature, in other words, that man irrespective of his environment, irrespective of where he comes from, that he has, he is prone to evil? In the Catholic church we call that original sin. Original sin is an inherited deficiency in which man is turned away from God rather than turned towards God, and that he holds within himself a seed of failure in..., spiritually, and also a seed of unreliability so that the very makeup of man demands the enlightening touch and the helping hand of God so that he may overcome his inherent and abiding deficiency. So we hold that that is the nature of things, that man... It's not just a good thing or an advisable thing that man reaches out to and for God, but it is a necessary thing, that God not merely is there to improve upon what you might say would be a natural goodness of man, but man has a natural deficiency he needs God to overcome. And as he overcomes, of course, he progresses further and he is enriched by God. But we hold that very clearly. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in one of the Vedic literature, that: Bishop Kelly: Oh, I have, I have. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So by association with devotee, by hearing, hearing, śravaṇādi... Śravaṇādi means hearing... Beginning is hearing. If you patiently hear, then that dormant God consciousness again becomes revived. Yes. Then his life is successful. Bishop Kelly: What would you hold about the, what you might term the revelation of God, the ongoing communication of God in revealing Himself and in further making known His will for man at different stages of his own life, say, in his spiritual life, and, of course, in different stages of history and in different cultures? *Prabhupāda: That is recommended. You see. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi [Bg. 10.10]. Because the God consciousness is there, God is there, now God is prepared to give Him instruction always. He is giving you instruction. Now, how that dormant consciousness can be revived, that is stated. You read it. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Purport. Prabhupāda: So one must be engaged in devotional service, practical. So these our boys and disciples, they are always... Bishop Kelly: I beg your pardon, your grace. I didn't quite catch what you said. *Prabhupāda: I said that if one engages himself in the service of the Lord some way or other, then the revelation, the original dormant God consciousness and love of God, becomes revived. Exactly in the same way: the psychiatrists, they treat the crazy fellow by talking, talking, talking some way. So if we talk of Kṛṣṇa, then the original Kṛṣṇa consciousness is revived. That is also stated. You find out in the Bhāgavata, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi... [SB 1.2.17]. Yes, purport. So this is very important thing. Therefore we have published so many books about Kṛṣṇa*-to hear. Hearing, hearing, hearing, and... Just like man is sleeping. You talk loudly, and he will be awakened. Yes. That's it. *Bishop Kelly: Yes, well, I accept that every man must open himself out to God. And as we say, well, God speaks to the open mind of a generous man and the open recesses of his own heart through His grace. But surely outside of man... See, my difficulty is, you know, that God can speak to me... Let us put it this way. Some God-fearing people and God-dedicated people have done some very strange things. Now, my (indistinct) is, if God speaks to me in the innermost recesses of my heart and He tells me on a certain matter to do this, and He speaks to somebody over here on the same matter, and He tells him to do something different, so straightaway I must ask the question. There must be some way, independent from me and from my fellow man, in which God can make His will known, can reveal Himself in so far to guarantee that I am not merely taking a subjective interpretation of what God is making known to me, and I end up with not really a valid alternative, but I may end up with an opposition or a contradiction. And my big fear there is, if it is a contradiction, well, somebody is going to lose out. Now I wouldn't be quite sure whether it was to be myself or the other person. But if that is so... So I always feel... The Christian religion, of course, feels it very keenly that it is true that God moves the individual soul in a way that is particular to each soul, his own action*-we call it His action of grace which is an offering of God's guidance and God's truth, God's riches or God's life-but over and above the individual movements by which he touches and uplifts and enables the individual person, to His outside of that, something which we would say, relatively speaking, in which He is objective, in which God makes known His will as a whole plane and philosophy of life. Now, in the Hare Kṛṣṇa would you have something of that equivalent? You would have sacred writings. I know that. But would you have anything that would sort of correspond to a living interpretive voice or a living interpretation of the will of God irrespective of what God says to me as an individual in the recesses of my heart and soul. I don't know whether I spoke too much there or whether I am clear. Prabhupāda: I don't think there is individual instruction. There is individual instruction, but that is subordinate. The general instruction is that one should be fully surrendered to God. That is general instruction. Now, if one is fully surrendered, then in a particular case and particular circumstances, God gives him instruction what to do. So because in this material world, circumstances are different, so that is not very extraordinary. According to circumstances, he gives him. But general instruction is there, and they are recorded in the scripture. That general instruction must be followed, that one cannot say that "God is dictating through me something to do even against the general instruction." That is not possible. That is not possible. The general instruction must be followed. Bishop Kelly: Yes. Well, I'm very pleased. But now perhaps you might like to ask me something. I've been asking you many things. You might like to ask me something, might like to ask me something about Australia, as I say, of all you know, the conditions of our society here, of our culture. Prabhupāda: One who is following the general instruction, then you can understand that he has actually fully surrendered to God. Then in particular case, if he is required to be given a particular instruction, that is different thing. That is also possible. But how one is God conscious, that is understood that how he is strictly following the general instruction. And otherwise it will be escaping. Somebody will say, "God is dictating me in this way, so I can do this." (chuckles) Then everyone can say like that. Bishop Kelly: That is true. That is true... Do you wish me to take this away or should I look at it here? Satsvarūpa: May he keep the book or... Prabhupāda: No, this is the only one sample I have got. But as soon as we get more copies, we shall be very glad. Bishop Kelly: I will return your glasses. (laughter) I hope mine are outside. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bishop Kelly: So I am very pleased to have had the opportunity of meeting with you, your grace. Prabhupāda: So I am also that your holiness has come. Bishop Kelly: I hope that in some real way that the cause of God will be served the better for this meeting. I do wish you Godspeed in your work, and in that, of course... *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are trying our bit to educate people how to revive his original God consciousness. Then he will be happy. Our principle is how to make people happy. There is a verse about the gosvāmīs. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. This word is very important, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau: "for the welfare of the people in general." People accuse sometimes-of course, foolish people do that*-that these God conscious person they are escaping. No. Who are actually God conscious person is always thinking how to do well to the people in general. Yes. Sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau. Give it to him. You can take. Bishop Kelly: Banana? Prabhupāda: No, take other thing. Keep it there. You take the whole thing. Bishop Kelly: The whole, oh, no, no. (laughter) No. No. Oh, no. Prabhupāda: Give to that gentleman. Bishop Kelly: My compeer may be better at that than I am. (end) Room Conversation with Bhürijana dasä and Disciples -- July 1, 1974, Melbourne Prabhupāda: That is sense. Otherwise nonsense, that's all. It is up to us to take up the sense or nonsense. The direction is there. What Arjuna said? Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: This is sense. Bhūrijana: Prabhupāda, I think my illusion is not yet dispelled. Prabhupāda: Then unfortunate. Bhūrijana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Continue. (laughter) Who can check? Bhūrijana: I want to understand in this sense though, exactly how far your instructions are because I know I want to do it, what you say, but I am not exactly... Prabhupāda: You are old student. Bhūrijana: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: If you still cannot understand what is my instruction, then how can I help you? New students may say like that. You are intelligent, educated, old student. If you say... (long, silent pause) Our movement is that beginning of spiritual life is to surrender. If there is no surrendering, then it is no advance. Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the beginning. If that thing is lacking, there is no beginning even, what to speak of advancement. That is discussed already. Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ gatiḥ. This is the beginning of spiritual life. The word is called disciple. Disciple means who accept discipline. If there is no discipline, where is disciple? And "disciplic succession." We have used this word. Not that discipline is finished by one man, no. It will continue to go by succession. That is perfect. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Naṣṭa, this word is used. Satsvarūpa: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." *Prabhupāda: That's it. As soon as the discipline broken, then everything is lost. Now you can dance like a dog. That will not affect. Nobody can do that unless there is spiritual strength. Now, last night Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was singing, and so many men became enthused to dance. So unless there is spiritual strength, it cannot be done. Others cannot ask and dance. No, that is not possible. That is not possible. Unless there is spiritual strength, you cannot enthuse others. So we should have to acquire spiritual strength by following the regulative principle. Sanātana Gosvāmī has therefore forbidden. Avaiṣṇava*-mukhodgīrṇam pūta-hari-kathāmṛtam śravanām kartavyam: "Those who are not following Vaiṣṇava principles, one should not hear from him." Why? It is Kṛṣṇa-kathā, Kṛṣṇa's. Now sarpocchiṣṭa-payo yathā: "Milk is very good, but as soon as it is touched by a serpent, it is no more good. It is harmful." So one must be Vaiṣṇava. Unless one is Vaiṣṇava, there is injunction, "Don't hear from him. It will be poisonous." So one who is not following Vaiṣṇava principle, he cannot speak about Vaiṣṇava principle. It is harmful. That is forbidden by ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī. If somebody says, "What is the harm? He is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa..." He cannot chant. That is a show-bottle chant. That is not effective. But even taking that "Anyone who is chanting, let me hear," no, Sanātana Gosvāmī says, "No, don't hear." It will be harmful more than... In other words, if you are not following the Vaiṣṇava principle, you don't chant. It will not be effective. Did you not see the difference last night? There were many others. They could not join in the dancing. So far gathering men, if you do not gather intelligent men, then what is the use of gathering men? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: "If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?" If one is perfect Vaiṣṇava, that is sufficient. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is... There are so many... Such a big instruction book. It is not that, whimsical. But still, we recommend that "Go on chanting." This will help you anywhere. That is also good. It is exactly like that: if you ignite wood for fire, if the wood is dry, the fire takes place immediately, and if it is moist, then it takes time. Only smoke will come. So smoke is not required. The blazing fire required. Then if from the wood, if simply smoke comes you cannot (chuckles) take any work out of it. There is traces of fire. As soon as there is smoke, there is fire, but it is not useful. It is useful for troubling your eyes only. What is smoke? Smoke means also fire. But you require blazing fire, not smoke fire. So blazing fire takes place if the wood is dry, immediately takes place. Otherwise, you go on enjoying the smoke. Be satisfied. "When there is smoke, there is fire." But it will not be useful. (chuckling) It will be useful, gradually the wood will dry. It takes long time. Just try to understand this example. You require the flame, not the smoke. But if you are satisfied with the smoke, that is your business. If you simply be satisfied-"The smoke is also fire. Unless there is fire, why the smoke comes?"-that's a good argument, but smoke will not help you. You require the flame. That flame cannot be produced if the wood is wet. Wet means materially contaminated. Is that example all right? Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. You must get the flame. Otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "Phat, phat, phat." As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it. Let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man... He was a yogi. So he approached. It is not story, it is fact. Approached one big man that... As people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogi, "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga." "So, how long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night or as long as you..." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, overnight, then I shall give you such and such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said, "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not... Either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no sir, you cannot give money." "Why?" "Now, there was heat." "So how there was heat?" You know, in India they give ākāśa*-pradīpa? During Kārttika month they... This is our Vaiṣṇava principle, I think. The lamp is there on the head of the roof. On the roof there is a bamboo, and in the top of the bamboo there is light. So this man was in the lake. And his advisor said, "You have seen that the lamp was there, and heat was coming." (laughing) That lamp was three miles away and still, he advised, "Yes, there was heat. Therefore he could tolerate." So what can be said? He is poor man. So there was another servant of that big man. So he appealed to him that "See, I took so much trouble and he did not pay me anything." "So don't worry. I shall see that you are paid." What is that? Some presentation? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. First of all, I will pay my obeisances. Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not...?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw. "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense." "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply. So that man was paid. So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way, cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ... So what are these things? [break] ...on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice. Paramahaṁsa: This was knitted by a devotee who came from Sydney. A scarf for you to wear in the cold. Prabhupāda: Hm. That's nice. Paramahaṁsa: And I also brought one from me. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Paramahaṁsa: And some mangoes. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is good. Paramahaṁsa: From Queensland, very nice mangoes. They are very difficult to get. Prabhupāda: Very good. The mango I like very much. Mango is the king of all fruit. Do you accept it or not? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: It is the king of fruits. Rose is the king of flowers. There is a statement in the Caitanya*-ca... Two fruits. One fruit is the nim tree fruit. You have seen nim tree? In not your country. Nim tree you have seen in India, and their fruits... Paramahaṁsa: A little bitter. Prabhupāda: Yes, very bitter. So the cuckoo, they try to eat the mango fruit flower when small, and the crow they eat that nim tree fruit. So amongst the birds also, there is discrimination according to the quality. Cuckoo sings very nicely. He is fond of mango fruit. And the crow is fond of this nim tree fruit. The white swan, they live in a very nice garden. There is lake, flower. And the crows, they live in the city. Of course, here in your country the garbage is not open. In India there is thrown anywhere and the crows... You have seen it? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: They enjoy that. Tad*-vāyasaṁ-tīrtham. It is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. Tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham. Find out this. No, it is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Na tad-vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ-tīrtham uṣanti mānasāḥ. Jagattāriṇī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, my friends have to leave now. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...understanding of spiritual platform. It is impossible. Therefore, a human being, if he does not come on the spiritual platform, he remains animal. That is the difference. Therefore, Bhagavad*-gītā, you will find the first beginning of teaching-dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Find out. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual life, to distinguish between the soul and the body. One who does not understand that there is soul, there is no spiritual education because he is animal. The animal does not know that there is soul. A dog thinks, "I am this body." So this is the beginning of spiritual education. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs first this thing. Everyone is acting on the conception of body as self. She has also gone, your wife? Bhūrijana: No, she will come back. Prabhupāda: We... Our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram [Bg. 2.13], dehina, not the deha, dehi. We are not working on deha. Deha means body. And dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the difference. Therefore it takes very, very, long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body..." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education... They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education? Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions or nowadays meditation, like that. *Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so*-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close. It is closed? Satsvarūpa: Close the blinds? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed. Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) [break] Satsvarūpa: ...have to strain the juice from this mango? Prabhupāda: And did you do it? Satsvarūpa: No. I've seen Pālikā do it with a cloth and then mix it with a little milk. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...human being. It is not meant for the beast. God has given different food for different person, different. You will find even food grains, rice*-first quality rice, second quality rice. Why nature has produced? Because there are persons who cannot eat third quality rice. So God has given: "Oh, here is first-class quality." They will eat little. And in India there are classes, they will eat so much. So for them that red rice is good. They do not like this fine basmati. I have got practical experience. Sometime we used to give even the servants the same rice. So this man came. He complained, "Bahu." "Bahu" means master. "This rice is not suitable for us." That fine basmati rice. He did not like it. Then the next day that red, big, big. Have seen that? Japanese rice or some, Burmese rice. It is reddish and big and little hard, and he likes: "Very nice." So there are classes of men, classes of animals. I have got practical experience of all this. The big animals... [break] ...living entities. That He is providing everyone. Nobody is hungry. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Devotee: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for. *Prabhupāda: No, classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat Kṛṣṇa*-prasādam." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat Kṛṣṇa-prasādam." Life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. At that stage, samatā, equality, when one is brahma-bhūta [SB 4.30.20], spiritualized... Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? No, he has gone. Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him. Prabhupāda: All right, no, no. No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now? Satsvarūpa: Ten to eight. (end) Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne Devotee: Dr. Harrap. Dr. Harrap: How do you do. Dr. Muncing(?): And Dr. Muncing. Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse... You have got first part? Devotee: First part. Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā [SB 1.5.22]. Satsvarūpa: Idam? *Prabhupāda: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi*-dattayoḥ, avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ [SB 1.5.22]. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Hm. Read. Satsvarūpa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the *Vedas*, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry." Prabhupāda: Purport. Prabhupāda: This is our process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection. Dr. Harrap: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world but we don't seem to have got their life qualities, good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this. Dr. Muncing: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They can record it? Prabhupāda: Oh yes, why not? Dr. Harrap: (aside:) This stand's quite a complicated contraption here. It makes (indistinct). Prabhupāda: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa." Read this. Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19.) Prabhupāda: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it? Prabhupāda: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his... Satsvarūpa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, p. 57) Madhudviṣa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background. Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist? Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the... Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and... Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centers where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the... Most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centers are working in that fashion. We have a school for children where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America. Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centers are, where some of them are? Madhudviṣa: The centers are all over the world. We have centers in America and centers... Prabhupāda: We have got forty centers in America. Dr. Harrap: Forty. Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes. Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests. *Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. Dr. Harrap: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā, yes. Guest (2): We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholestrol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you? Satsvarūpa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful. Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter... Dr. Muncing: The milkfat and... Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat. Prabhupāda: Milk is harmful? How it is harmful? If it is harmful why you are giving milk to the child? *Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two per cent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different from the milk that we get from the non*-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants. Prabhupāda: But I think there is a book, "Miracles of Milk," written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products. Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so, has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholestrol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholestrol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to, among many in the medical profession to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Have you got our picture, Kṛṣṇa stealing butter? Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way by a special feeding techniques to the cows. *Prabhupāda: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk because you find in this book that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya. Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk is important, not other animal's milk. Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk? Prabhupāda: Human milk is natural. Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk. Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholestrol. (laughter) Cholestrol is no problem for you. Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak... Yes, you know him? One of our staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk. *Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa said that kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa Book? Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa... We are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture. Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and... Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely. Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity. Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana(?), I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex. *Prabhupāda: No, practically also we see. Formerly big, big saintly person they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the... He has written Mahābhārata, one hundred thousand verses and similarly, this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk and fruits. Yes. Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncing has taken the lead in C.S.R.O. in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat. Dr. Muncing: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past. Madhudviṣa: He wants... He would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world and what Australia can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science as well as general living. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries... The population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the over*-populated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad-gītā we have the statement-find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Cāru: Prabhupāda: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps plowing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors, what is called? Tractor? Madhudviṣa: Cultivators. Prabhupāda: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation. And the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labor and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop. Dr. Muncing: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area... The area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.R.O. is working towards. Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain because the terrain is just not suited to the grain growing. Prabhupāda: The land is not suitable? *Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts and semi*-deserts. The gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural, the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us... There's people that don't have the essentials and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. [break] Prabhupāda: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body? Dr. Muncing: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it's material and dead in the terms we use and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that that at that stage one has nothing to..., one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body. Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the important factor... Just like our, this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination, there is an active principle which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect. Dr. Muncing: I think I disagree with that. Dr. Harrap: I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would place a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community. Prabhupāda: That I admit. That I admit. Yes. Dr. Muncing: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now? Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this? Guests: Yes, yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch. Dr. Muncing: I agree. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw*-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition? Dr. Muncing: It wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency... Prabhupāda: Creative faculty... Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain? Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the... Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist. Dr. Muncing: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present. Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. So you can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweet ball? Satsvarūpa: Where are they? I could not find them just now. Prabhupāda: You go and find out. *Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that, what we call a gouda cheese which comes originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. It seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese*-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more and more popular in these countries. Prabhupāda: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. People... A class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk, sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food. Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat*-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya. It does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "elephant-rakṣya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-rakṣya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā, real mother. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brāhmaṇa, that is also mentioned there in the śāstra. So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī... In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our society, we get married. Your government has approved our society that we can... Madhudviṣa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages. Prabhupāda: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that? Satsvarūpa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Kṛṣṇas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell... Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed we wouldn't be here. Prabhupāda: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and... It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasurehouse of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life. Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some... Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first. Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brāhmaṇa friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India? Prabhupāda: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from... You have got the first part of *Bhāgavatam*? Cāru: Yes, right here. Prabhupāda: The Aśvatthāmā released the brahmāstra? Satsvarūpa: That's in three I think. Prabhupāda: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmāstra. So when this brahmāstra was released by one Aśvatthāmā, the same symptom of nuclear weapon... Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa mahā bāho. That is... Satsvarūpa: We don't have that volume. Prabhupāda: Why you are lacking? You have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, "Yes, we have got enough stock." Madhudviṣa: We have them but we do not have them here. Prabhupāda: No, that is not... Here are people coming, gentlemen coming. Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India's... Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this," no. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Find out this verse. Cāru: *Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18], means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Cāru: Ahaṅkāra vimūḍhā. *Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. Find out this verse. Cāru: Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural, the material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body, next life I may get another body. That is explained. Tathā dehāntara prāpti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education. There is no science, but this is a fact. Guest (2): Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in one? Madhudviṣa: These are preparations which is prepared from Australian milk. Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes. Guest (2): Oh, thank you. Madhudviṣa: Give a napkin. It's a sweet preparation called gulab jamin. It is all prepared just from milk which has been made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee, cooking ghee, and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and it is very palatable. It's called a gulab jamin. It is a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafoetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely. Prabhupāda: This cheese as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat. Madhudviṣa: Protein. Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein. Prabhupāda: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk. Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar... Madhudviṣa: Syrup. Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India? Madhudviṣa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science. Prabhupāda: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take it. It is very nice. Guest (2): You mean to eat it now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife. Prabhupāda: No, no, you take, you take it. You just... Madhudviṣa: I can give you another. Prabhupāda: Yes. If you like we shall give you more. Satsvarūpa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though. Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it. Prabhupāda: And if you send us cheese like this we can send you many things. (laughter) Dr. Muncing: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family. Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but... (laughter) Dr. Muncing: It's very good. Prabhupāda: Shall I give you more? Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home? Madhudviṣa: Oh yes. Dr. Muncing: Well, this has been most interesting. Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Public relations for dairy research. Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress. Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajña. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation. Guest (2): Well, thank you... Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end) Room Conversation with Devotees -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne Cāru: *Prabhupāda: This industry is horrible work. Simply by tilling your ground you get food grains, and keep some cows, you get milk*-your economic problem is solved. Why such big, big industries? Ugra-karma. Then? Go on. Cāru: Prabhupāda: The big two wars of the world happened only on account of this industry. Do you know that? The cause is the big, big industry. Germany industrial, they produce goods. They must have market. But when they go to sell, there is no market. Britishers will not allow to sell them. The Britisher will take, purchase from them, and stamp it "Made in England" and sell it. And this is the cause of two big war. Therefore German declare twice war. Disaster. Therefore it is said, jagata ahitāya. Then? Go on. Cāru: Purport? Prabhupāda: No, the other śloka. Cāru: Other śloka. Prabhupāda: Yes. Cāru: Prabhupāda: Translation? Cāru: There is one more verse. Prabhupāda: Then? Next. Cāru: Prabhupāda: Next. Next bank balance. Then? Cāru: " 'So much is mine now and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him; and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything, I am the enjoyer, I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance." Prabhupāda: Just like Hitler, Napoleon. They thought like that. Yes. Then? Next verse? *Cāru: Aneka*-citta-vibhrāntā moha-jāla samāvṛtāḥ... Prabhupāda: Now where is Hitler? Where is Napoleon? Finished. Then? *Cāru: Moha*-jāla-samāvṛtāḥ, prasaktāḥ kāma-bhogeṣu patanti narake 'śucau: [Bg. 16.16] "Thus perplexed by various anxieties and bound by a network of illusions, one becomes too strongly attached to sense enjoyment and falls down into hell." Prabhupāda: Then? Cāru: Prabhupāda: Next stage. "What is God? I am God." Then? Cāru: "And in the bodies of others and blasphemes against the real religion." *Prabhupāda: I think you missed that verse, jagato ahitāya. Anyway, these are the description of demonic activities. So this is practical. The last two disastrous war was waged only for this industry. This is the cause. German, they are actually in Europe very intelligent and their machine products and other things, they make very nice things. At least, I have got experience, German chemicals are first*-class chemical. So they manufacture and British occupied the half of the world in their colonization, whole Africa, and they controlled India and China, Japan, yes, China, Burma, Ceylon, Australia. So these poor people, they manufactured. They have got goods enough; where to sell? As soon as they go to the British territories, "No, you cannot sell. If you want to sell, then hundred percent duty." So price increase. This was the grudge. Everyone knows. This is the cause of two wars. The jagato ahita. Now, why so much? You require a scissor? Go to a blacksmith and pay something. He'll make a scissor. "No. Produce millions of scissor." Then where is market, sir? This is going on. Produce millions of TV machine. Simple they are used for wasting time. One or two or five made for some important business. Now they are producing millions of sets. They must sell. And people are induced to purchase. And as soon as they purchase, they simply see television. Idol worship. And learning vicious things. Some unnecessary picture is produced there. They like to see it. Two train are coming and they are smashed. (laughs) I have seen some television. People are learning how to smash, how to steal, how to harass people. Things are being shown like that. Not that "You are soul. You are spirit soul. If you degrade yourself, you then get this." You make that television, that how transmigration of the soul is taking place. They have manufactured the machine, so utilize for your propaganda. We have got to do so many things. We can utilize everything. So if they are not used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose they'll be used for committing disaster in the world. Just like the atomic bomb. They are meant for creating disaster, that's all. What else they can do? And now everyone is having atomic weapon, just like India has now got. That means they are preparing, by nature's course they are preparing for war, and "I put my atomic bomb on your head, and you put on my head. You die, I die, that's all." They simply die. Now what was the result of the disastrous war twice? The whole European nations ruined. They are not no more rich. I saw in Paris, in Germany. They are not as rich as the Americans. Because American inland, there was no such big war, so their opulence is existing, but on account of these two wars, British completely finished. Yes. British completely. It is now... Hitler wanted that "I shall again make these English people a fisherman's island. They have to take their business to fishing only." (laughter) That was Hitler's declaration. Madhudviṣa: That has happened. Prabhupāda: That has happened. Madhudviṣa: They are fishing all over the world, trying to get some oil, trying to get some steel, how to get some grain. Cāru: They only work two days in a week now in England. Madhudviṣa: That's finished now. During the petrol shortage they had to cut themselves down to two days a week. Prabhupāda: Now they have got Australia. Australia is English possession? Madhudviṣa: No. Prabhupāda: No, no more. Cāru: Not any more. *Prabhupāda: But I know, all educated and advanced educated Englishmen, they were coming to Australia for good job. Therefore most of the technical posts, they are occupied by Indians in London. As soon as one is highly qualified medical man, he comes to Australia. So who will take care of them? So therefore they imported some brain from India. Anyway, our time should be saved for self*-realization. That is perfect civilization. And not for creating unnecessary necessity of life. That will increase problem. So scientists, they disagreed or agreed with us? Madhudviṣa: They did not want to get... They did not want to... Prabhupāda: But they could not answer "Who is the manufacturer of the brain of the scientist?" That they could not. Madhudviṣa: You have said in one of your tapes, "They want to start half way." Like they say, "All of a sudden there is an aeroplane, appeared in the sky." They do not trace out where that aeroplane is coming from. So similarly, they are interested in the problems of today, but they do not want to delve into the essential problem. They are talking about building nice houses, using this, that. They do not want to delve into... *Prabhupāda: This is practical. The scientists have got good brain, but who manufactured the brain? You cannot do. You have not manufactured your brain. If you say, "By nature," then nature is more powerful than you. But nature is dead. It cannot create life. That is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7]. As soon as the question of jīva, living entity, there, this, mine, you can say it is nature. And other things? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... [Bg. 3.27]. Prakṛti, nature, is doing. Everything explained. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā: [Bs. 5.44] "There is an energy which can create, maintain, and destroy the whole cosmic manifestation." Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā [Bs. 5.44], one. There is one energy. Chāyeva yasya vibharti bhuvanāni durgā: "That energy is working just like shadow under the direction of Kṛṣṇa." That is big energy, but that energy... Just like atomic energy, big energy, but it is done by a scientist, not that the ingredients automatically mix together and become an atomic... No. That is not possible. Big, big brain, scientist, they are dealing. Similarly this big energy-creation, maintenance, and destruction of nature*-that nature is called Durgā. Durgā. Duḥ. Duḥ means difficult, and gā means going or to understand. To understand the laws of material nature is very difficult. That is called Durgā. Or Durgā means... Durgā means this is like a fort. We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu... [Bs. 5.44]. Now the conclusion. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently, according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Madhudviṣa: Digvijāya. Prabhupāda: Because we are getting perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. Madhudviṣa: Their question may be, what would you advise them to do... *Prabhupāda: That... This, this boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara. He has written this book, hearing me, hearing me, hearing me... [break] ...addition, alteration. Therefore we present Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, no addition, alteration. The same thing. As soon as there is addition, alteration, it is gone, finished. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't you presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to time, place, and circumstances? Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: So what enables a person to do that? Prabhupāda: No... But principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body; *you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space, and circumstance. There will be certain class of men, foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent. So the foolish man has to take intelligence from the intelligent man. This is perpetually truth in this material world. It is not, time and circumstances changes this principle. There will be foolish men. Just like now we read, "Two classes of men are there always, the demons and the demigods." So at the present moment more demons. Two classes of men are there always, but at the present moment the demons, number of demons, are more and number of demigods are less because it is Kali*-yuga. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, does this possible anyhow to teach consciousness in Russian and the country who are in the unitary trust in the East? Like here in the west or America and Australia, in the...? Madhudviṣa: His question is... He is... This boy is Yugoslavian, Yugoslavian, and he has done some translating of your *Īśopaniṣad* into Yugoslavian. So he is wondering is it possible to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness in Yugoslavia? Prabhupāda: Everywhere possible. Madhudviṣa: And in other Russian... But these countries are all under Communist rule. It is very difficult in those countries. Prabhupāda: Not difficult. Nothing is difficult. For the time being it is difficult but in due course of time it will be very easy. Now who knew that in Europe and America or all over the world, Hare Kṛṣṇa will go on? Bon Mahārāja left the field; *others left the field. You see? Other swamis came. They talked all nonsense, yoga, this and that, nose pressing, eyes pressing*-all finished. Now Hare Kṛṣṇa is going on. Now people, the nose-presser and eyes-presser, they are no more important. Is it not? Eh? Now our men go and challenge these rascals. And in New York they did it, huh? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And they are afraid of our troops. (laughter) They are afraid. *Madhudviṣa: One of those nose*-pressers, he once was speaking, and he said, "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they like me very much. They always come to my lectures and they sell all the books, all their books, and then they go away before I start to talk." Prabhupāda: "You go on pressing your nose. We make our business and go away." (laughter) Madhudviṣa: He was speaking like that because our men go into the lecture dressed in disguise, plain clothes, and we are going in the audience selling books to everyone. They all get the book, and then, when he begins to speak, then we all turn around and go out. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they did it in the Guru Maharaji's camp also. Hundreds of Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is sold. Satsvarūpa: Thousands. Prabhupāda: Thousands. So we take advantage of this meeting. We do our business and go away. And they have no books. They have simply that pressing of nose, that's all, nothing else. They have no philosophy, nothing of the sort. What they will write? They have no philosophy. Simply cheat that "Press your nose; *you get Bhagavān." That's all. And people think, "It is so easy. Why shall I go to Bhaktivedanta Swami? Let me go to this Guru Mahārāja." They think like that. And some of our men, feeling too much pressure, they go away. But here there is nothing cheap, that simply by pressing nose and eyes and you become God. Don't make compromise. This principle must be observed. Then you'll remain strong. As soon as you make compromise, then it is finished. Dṛḍha*-vratāḥ. Find out this verse. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. What is that? Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Namasyantaś ca māṁ... *Cāru: Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha*-vratāḥ. *Prabhupāda: Ah, ah. That dṛḍha*-vratāḥ must be there, strong determination. Then it will go on. The scientists will come to learn and the psychiatrists will come to learn if you keep dṛḍha-vratāḥ. And as soon as you make compromise, then nobody will care for. (end) Morning Walk -- July 9, 1974, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: Now if they say that the killing means murdering, that means the people amongst whom Christ was preaching, they were accustomed to kill men. So what class of men they were? What was the society? A society of murderers. So what they will understand about religion, a murderer? (pause) So go further or return? Jayatīrtha: We should probably turn around now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) If you're preaching honesty to a thief, you have to be careful that he's not stealing your watch in the meantime. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: If you're preaching honesty to a thief, he may steal your watch. So Jesus was trying to teach religion to murderers, so they murdered him. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. (aside:) Don't come very near. If you advise rascals, they'll be angry. No good result. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye, payaḥ*-pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. So we have to become very strong preacher. Then this movement will stay. If you simply take the temple worship, it will not stay very long. Just like... Hṛdayānanda: Especially the leaders must preach. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hṛdayānanda: Especially the leaders must preach. Prabhupāda: And leaders means... If the leaders are good, then it will continue. Bali Mardana: If they are not preaching, they are not leaders. They are bogus. (pause) Prabhupāda: Leaders means they should behave in such a way so that by following them, others will be benefitted. That is leader. Jayatīrtha: That's a perfect definition, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: That's a perfect definition. That should be in the dictionary, like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that for definition? Jayatīrtha: The... A leader means one that if someone follows him, he's benefitted. Prabhupāda: That is leader. *Guru*-kṛpa: Look out. Jayatīrtha: Look out. Oh, the ocean is coming. Prabhupāda: Our Juhu Beach is better than... Best in the world. You have not seen? Jayatīrtha: I was there. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's very beautiful. Gurukrpa: What do you think of Jagannātha Purī Beach? Prabhupāda: No, not so nice. *Guru*-kṛpa: Not so nice? Prabhupāda: Juhu Beach is very nice. You can go up to one mile, so much water. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Up to the knee. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Just up to the knee? Prabhupāda: Yes. And the waves are not so ferocious. It is coming. And the whole thing is clean, whole beach. Yes. And it is ten miles long. Therefore so many foreigners' hotels are there. (japa) (pause) When I was last here, Los Angeles, which chapter I was reading? Who knows? Which chapter of Bhāgavata I was reading? *Guru*-kṛpa: Fifth? Sudāmā: The last time he was here? Jayatīrtha: In Los Angeles you were reading in the Third Volume of the First Canto. I believe it was about... Hṛdayānanda: About Arjuna, how Arjuna left the earth, how the Pāṇḍavas retired. Jayatīrtha: Ah, Pāṇḍavas Retire, yes. Prabhupāda: So from there we shall begin again. (japa) (long pause) If the people refuse to take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll never be happy. This is a fact. (pause) But if you present properly, they will take. That is a fact. The other day in San Francisco, there were about twelve to fifteen thousand men. They were hearing so patiently. They also applauded. And many came to my car, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." Said like that. Bali Mardana: I've never seen so many young Americans sit for, listen to the lecture so attentively. Prabhupāda: And religious, most dry subject. Not cinema. Bali Mardana: The newspaper said that it was the most favorite festival of all San Francisco, of all the festivals. *Prabhupāda: So they have mentioned, "American Hindus." (chuckles) (pause) It is a dead blow to the material civilization: "No drinking and no intoxication, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no illicit sex." Their whole civilization is finished. Because they stand on these things, four pillars. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: They have no other... *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Therefore we must present a better civilization. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: We must present a better civilization. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Not better or best. The civilization. Everything is all false, cheating. Everything, everything is cheating. Without this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all other consciousness, they're simply cheating. That is called māyā, illusion. If you remain in any other consciousness except Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that means you are in illusion. You are misguided. That is explained in the second verse of the First Canto. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstava vastu vedyam atra: [SB 1.1.2] All kinds of cheating religious system is kicked out." That is the second verse. Projjhita, completely cleansed of all cheating type of religion. This, this has been translated into Bengali by these words, Jayatīrtha: What exactly is the definition of a cheat? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: What is the definition of a cheat? Prabhupāda: Cheat means that I am exploiting you. I am saying that I am creating you a religious, but you are most sinful. I am creating a most sinful. That is cheating. *Guru*-kṛpa: Giving something under false pretensions. *Prabhupāda: That's all. You are taking something else while thinking something else. That is cheating. Actually, we see the so*-called religious system... Religion means to become lover of God. But who is lover of God? Do not know what is God, and what to speak of love Him. They do not know, have no clear conception of God even. Jayatīrtha: They are lovers of dog. Prabhupāda: And actually they are lovers of dog. And still, he's professing "I am religious." This is not cheating. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, it's cheating. Imposter. Prabhupāda: Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Unless one becomes a devotee of God, there is no question of religion. It is all cheating. By opening hospital, schools,... There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years, the hospitals and schools are being opened, philanthropy. What is the result? Bali Mardana: Atom bombs. Prabhupāda: Atom bomb. Result is atom bomb. Hṛdayānanda: You're the only one, Prabhupāda, who dares to criticize hospitals and schools. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes, so many people came to request me... Even Dr. Ghosh. Eh? You know. Satsvarūpa: He wanted you to open a medical dispensary. Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are not going to waste our time in that way." I frankly told him. We have no extra time to waste like that. What he thinks very big project, we say it is waste of time. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. It is a completely revolutionary idea. Prabhupāda: Yes. I cannot allow anyone he's waste his valuable time of human life. *Guru*-kṛpa: You said before that the more hospitals they open that means the more people have to become sick. Prabhupāda: That, more... Yes. *Guru*-kṛpa: To get in the hospital. *Prabhupāda: They are very much proud, "We have opened fifty hospitals." That means fifty thousand people have become sick. "We have increased so many beds." That means so many people have more increased their disease. But they're proud of doing this. Our poor-feeding and their poor-feeding is different. We give prasādam*-by eating he'll become Kṛṣṇaized. He'll become a devotee. And ordinary eating means he will eat and go to hell. Hare Kṛṣṇa (japa) Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau... *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Jaya Prabhupāda. Jayatīrtha: Jāyate. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 12, 1974, Los Angeles *Kṛṣṇa*-kanti: Morning walk conversation, at Marina del Rey. [break] Prabhupāda: So... New Vrindaban? Eh? Bali Mardana: When would you like to go? Prabhupāda: When you are going to Dallas? Jayatīrtha: Dallas? On Tuesday morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (inaudible) We were planning that you would stay there for two days. Prabhupāda: Then? Jayatīrtha: And then we're going to New Vrindaban on Thursday morning. Prabhupāda: (inaudible due to loud ocean waves) Jayatīrtha: We'll be leaving on the 16th. [break] Prabhupāda: Delhi also. Bali Mardana: What is that? Prabhupāda: (inaudible) They have come from otherwise? Jayatīrtha: Probably the man who brought them out. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: The man who brought them out to play with them. Prabhupāda: On the beach dogs are not allowed. Jayatīrtha: No. Many times men bring their dogs out to play on the beach. Prabhupāda: [break] ...if one successful yogi can walk on the water. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Is there any process in the science? No. Then? That is called laghimā. Laghimā*-siddhi. Laghimā-siddhi, you become so light that you can walk on the water, you can fly in the air. Bali Mardana: There was one yogi who advertised just recently that he was going to walk on the water. And he sold tickets. So all the people came to see him walk on the water. Then when he got on the water he went straight down. (laughter) Svarūpa Dāmodara: In India? Bali Mardana: It was in the West I think. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, there was one... Bali Mardana: There was an article in the Los Angeles paper yesterday. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, in India also, about ten years ago, there was one... India. In Bombay. But he didn't, he couldn't walk. But it was sold. The tickets was about five hundred rupees or so. Prabhupāda: Only? Svarūpa Dāmodara: But a... Big, big people were invited and actually he didn't walk. He fell down in the water. Bali Mardana: Maybe Kṛṣṇa took his power away. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was almost beaten. (laughter) Prabhupāda: The same thing... Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said he missed something. Prabhupāda: So many birds are floating on the sea. Nobody's interested. But one rascal will advertise that "I can walk." They purchase five hundred rupees ticket. (laughter) (pause) People want to see magic. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: And if somebody can show magic, then he becomes God. Jayatīrtha: God is showing so much magic but people don't recognize it. Prabhupāda: No, this is also magic. But the scientists will say, "Water is combination of this chemical, that chemical." And wherefrom so much chemical came? That is a magic. But that magic he'll not see. Eh? Dr...? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That magic, they will say it was produced by nature. Prabhupāda: So anyway, it is magic for him. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but they don't say it is magic. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is magic for him because he cannot produce so much water. In the laboratory he can produce water just to fill up a test tube. But wherefrom this water came? That is magic. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is so much beyond their concept that they just, they just don't want to think about it. Prabhupāda: Means, that is animal propensity. The same thing, example. As a rabbit is going to be killed, he closes the eyes. "There is no danger. (laughter) There is no danger." He's thinking. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there are thousand things they are taking for granted without... Prabhupāda: That is not science. Science should not take anything granted. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Something which is beyond their experimental knowledge... Prabhupāda: Then where is the difference between the scientists and the devotees? The devotees, devotee accepts what Kṛṣṇa says. That's all. Granted. (japa) In the śāstra it is said that acintyā khalu ye bhāvā na tās tarkeṇa yojayet, yojayet. "Things which are beyond your conception or perception, don't bring it in arguments and logic." *Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is from Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu? Prabhupāda: Eh? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu? Acintyā khalu ye bhāvā...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they think a little carefully. Then there is no reason why they can't accept Him. Prabhupāda: That you have to do, to convince them that "You think little carefully. You are advertising yourself as scientist, but you are talking without any care." (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have statistical data about the creation of the material universe, the material world. For example, like in a... Prabhupāda: We have got also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, yes. Four yugas, the four yugas comprise four million, three hundred thousand years. The yugas together, four. The... *Prabhupāda: Forty*-three hundred thousands of years, four yugas. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, four million, three hundred twenty thousand. Prabhupāda: No, no, four yugas. Do you mean to say? Prabhupāda: Yes. Altogether. *Prabhupāda: All yugas, Satya, Treta, Dvapara, Kali, the total years are forty*-three hundred thousands of years. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The calculations by the biologists for the beginning of life, they say it is about four billion years. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: About four billion years ago, the small species like unicellular species like the bacteria and these started about four billions years ago. And the human life started... Prabhupāda: Well, where started? Bacteria? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. In the earth. Prabhupāda: Then the earth was there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, before that earth was formed. Prabhupāda: Then where is the creation. Svarūpa Dāmodara: When, they say, the earth, first the earth was formed, and after that, it took some time to make some living entities. Prabhupāda: That may be, but how the earth came into existence? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have several theories about that. Prabhupāda: Not only one earth, but there are so many. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: They speculate that at the most the human form of life started about five thousand, about fifty thousand years ago. Bali Mardana: What? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what they think. From similar type of species like human beings, started about fifty thousand years ago. Bali Mardana: No, there's just new findings. Three millions years ago. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, that's about the... It's not the whole... Bali Mardana: What? Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's all forms of species developing slowly. Bali Mardana: No. Now they have just recently found a species of man three millions years ago, and it's similar to modern man. So scientists... So now they have concluded that there are more than one species, a lower species and a higher species existing at the same time. Prabhupāda: This Darwin is a rascal. He cannot... He has taken some idea from this *Padma Purāṇa*, and he has developed in a befooling way. There are different types of human beings, four hundred thousand species. (pause) [break] ...is to conquer over the stringent laws of nature. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: No? What is the purpose of scientific research? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: To conquer over the laws of nature. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it not? The laws of nature is already powerful. So you have not conquered over the laws of nature. Then how science is powerful? Svarūpa Dāmodara: You cannot conquer the laws of nature. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science cannot conquer the laws of nature. That is why they try to think only about the body, the bodily concept. To give them comfort to the body by... Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. That's all. Everything ending in sense gratification. That's all. (japa) Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's like it is a fashion to try to violate the laws of nature. It is becoming very popular. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is childish. That a child says, "No, no." Mother says, "Sit down." "No, no." (laughter) One! "Ahhhh." (laughter) Mother is the nature, and child is trying to violate the orders of mother. This is the position. So who will take them very seriously? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they suffer the result. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffer is suffered(?). Tayā sammohito jīva ātmānam tri*-guṇātmakam. Yayā sammohito... There is a verse. Yaya sammohito jīva ātmanam tri-guṇātmakam, manute anartham... [SB 1.7.5]. Satsvarūpa: The car is this way. Prabhupāda: Eh? Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The result of this violation of the laws of nature is that... Prabhupāda: No, they cannot violate. That is not possible. There is no question of violating. Simply childish attempt. That's all. You cannot violate it. That is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are... They are planning to make a... (laughter) Prabhupāda: That is childish. That is childish. "They are planning." That is childish. Although they are being repeatedly baffled, still trying. This is childish. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have already timetable worked out. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Svarūpa Dāmodara: That in two thousand years they are going to make... *Prabhupāda: Yes, so that he'll not live for two thousand years. Then the bluff cannot be shown. Violation is not possible, sir. That is not possible. Therefore Bhagavad*-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. You are trying to violate, but here are the four principles. It is not possible. You cannot violate. There is death; you cannot violate this. As soon as the time will come, you must die. Finished, all your scientific research. Four millions, trillions, and you can say, at that time there was no civilized man. At that time man was dying and animal was dying. And at this time man is dying and animal is dying. So what improvement you have made? There is no improvement. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is also called tampering. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tampering with the machinery of God. They try to manipulate in a different way so that they can get some deviation from the normal. Prabhupāda: There is no deviation. (Śrīla Prabhupāda apparently gets into car.) Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk, recorded July 10, 1974 in Venice Beach. [break] Testing 1,2,3. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Testing 1,2,3. Testing 1,2,3. [break] Testing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Morning Walk, July 13, 1974, in Marina del Rey. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...have discrimination because the British government, they think that the Ratha*-yatra is becoming very popular. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is the... It is actually rational discrimination. The Christians, they thought, "Now these Englishmen, they'll make Hindu religion very prominent." Because it is a fact. If we introduce such three*-four celebrations, then Christianity will be finished. But what is there? Christianity, there is nothing. Simply some dry words. And actually, they're seeing, nobody's coming to the church. So in this way, if they some, relish something better, then whatever is there, that will be finished, also. Therefore in London we wanted to purchase a church. Bali Mardana: A big cathedral. Prabhupāda: Ah. And they said, "We shall burn it down; still, we shall not give to Bhaktivedanta Swami." They said like that. Bahulāśva: Rascals. Prabhupāda: "We shall burn it down." They are seeing practically. After all, they are businessmen. "Shopkeeper's nation." They see practically that if such kind of movements go on... People are already, have no interest in the church. In Chicago, they wrote "American Hindus." They wrote in the paper. Then Hindu, Hindu religion will be prominent. Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bahulāśva: The Catholic Church is very wealthy. They don't want to lose their... Prabhupāda: So what will wealth do? If it does not appeal to the people, what wealth will do? In Chicago also, the Christians came with some wooden signboard. You have seen? Bali Mardana: No, I didn't see. Prabhupāda: "It is through Christ. It is through..." They were showing me. So that has been criticized by the newspapermen, that "Nobody cares for you." (laughter) Yes. Bali Mardana: In New York also, we have to do negotiations very secretly because if they find out, they would not want to sell to us. They would be afraid. *Prabhupāda: Oh, New York, there was Ratha*-yatra? Bali Mardana: No, no. For purchasing the church. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bali Mardana: They're also afraid that we will take over. Prabhupāda: But that is not yet finished. Bali Mardana: Well, it is going on now. The one building is finished. Other building is still... Until we are living there... Prabhupāda: That, one Japanese gentleman wrote in a paper that "This Movement, as it growing fast, within ten years the whole world will become Hindu ." Bali Mardana: Jaya. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: So even it is as it is, they may take in palanquin, but there must be a protest meeting continuously. Protest meeting and the Indians should approach the Ambassador that, "Represent our case to the Queen that Hindus are being harassed." This should be organized. Bali Mardana: And also newspaper. Prabhupāda: Also newspaper. There must be... Bali Mardana: They can make advertisements in the newspaper. Prabhupāda: Yes. That "On certain plea only, they have stopped our most important ceremony." In this way agitation must go on. And our men, those who took part in political agitation, they should go there and speak everywhere, that "It is religious discrimination." Bali Mardana: They should have a protest meeting in front of the Parliament building, with signs. *Prabhupāda: Protest meeting must be there. How to organize? At least, a protest meeting should be done in such a way that the whole world may know that the British Government stopped the yearly Ratha*-yatra ceremony of the Hindus. That should be organized. What can be done? You are not very strong GBC's. There must be vehement protest meeting. Bali Mardana: They can protest in front of Downing Street, in front of the Prime Minister's residence. Prabhupāda: Yes, protest meeting, go on, organize. Go, all of you. What is the talking here? They have seen that the movement is growing more important. So this is discrimination. In England the Church is very strong. They have organized like this. You quote the publication, "There is no alarm." Of course, it is on the plea of police protest, police objection. The police objection means one's religious ceremony should be stopped? What is this? Simply for some technical mistake, now they can warn that "You must do it. Otherwise it will be stopped." How is that? No. That means this is police government? Does it mean it is police government? Bali Mardana: Police state. Prabhupāda: Police state? And why they are declaring Commonwealth and, British Commonwealth. So if it is governed by the police, how it is Commonwealth? There should be very strong agitation. And all the Hindus will join. So who will organize it? Don't make it childish. It is very serious. (pause) Police should have taken task when the rules were broken by Mahādeva. Why they did not take action in that time? They did not say anything. Police, if there is discrepancy, violation of the rules, they should have taken immediate action. Why they did not take? Now they have manufactured by conspiracy that "This movement should be stopped. Now take this plea." This is going on. Bali Mardana: They could even have been paid off. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Perhaps they were also paid off to stop it. Prabhupāda: Paid off or not paid off, it doesn't matter. But actually it is stopped. And if we simply cede, then there is no future hope of this movement. Better, in spite of their "No" order, we shall take the... Bali Mardana: Take the ratha there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Take it anyway? Prabhupāda: Yes. And let them be arrested. That is the real thing. Bali Mardana: That is better. Prabhupāda: So you go all there, and perform this. Bahulāśva: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Make the ratha as it is and keep it on the Hyde Park. Don't move it, and hold meeting. Don't go the Trafalgar Square, but organize huge meeting there. Don't move it. "Under protest, we are not moving, but this is discrimination." Organize like that. Have the ratha standing there. Unless the order is given. And go on holding meeting. That will be the right answer. Bali Mardana: They can bring the ratha in on a big truck. Prabhupāda: Ratha, we start from the Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square. So the ratha must be there. We'll not move. And simply hold meeting, unless the order is given. This is the right course. Brahmānanda: They should have a meeting until the order is given. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Until the order is given, we shall hold meeting here. Daily." And tell them that "It is, it is police government. Then we should, we should give up British connection." Agitate government that "It has become a police government." Best course will be like that, that "As usual, we shall keep the ratha there. We are not moving." And hold on, go on protest meeting, doing. And keep them there. Let them arrest and go to jail. That is the real effort. (pause) Or one thing do... Satī sārthaṁ samācaret. Therefore I wanted to start this politics. There say, "It is, it is our custom. Unless the ratha is there, there is no ceremony. So you have asked to palanquin. We shall make the ratha here, standing. And after holding our ceremony we shall take the Deity in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square. And go to the Trafalgar Square and hold meeting there. But the ratha must be there. It will not move. It will stand here. We shall take the Deities in palanquin and go to the Trafalgar Square." In this way, take police permission, and after going there, along with the ceremony, protest. Brahmānanda: In Trafalgar Square. Prabhupāda: Yes. Trafalgar Square. Bali Mardana: They cannot object if the ratha is not moving. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. That "You, objection... Our ratha will not move. It will simply stand there. The Deity will go in palanquin to Trafalgar Square and come back." They cannot object. But the ratha must be seen. And people must know that the rascal police government has stopped it. Go, everyone, and do it. The ratha must be exhibited, even though it does not move. And the Deity will be moving in palanquin. And come back again to the ratha. Is that all right? Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Can you execute all this? Bali Mardana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Do it. Ratha*-yatra ratha is there, but the police did not allow to move. That's all right. We shall not move. The Deities, three palanquins, taken together, procession will go to the Trafalgar... That is, that is allowed. But the ratha must be exhibited. It will not move. So what is their objection. If the ratha stands in the same place, without movement, then they cannot have any objection. As they have passed, the Deities will move, and we'll come back again. Is it any... Eh? What objection can...? Bali Mardana: That is approved for the route? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: Yes, they can walk with the palanquins over the route, to Trafalgar Square. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Bali Mardana: That's approved? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Ratha will not move. Then when we will get sanction, it will move. And for the sanction we must go on protesting. If you can take these steps, then do it. Otherwise, sleep. [break] ...with Haṁsadūta. Bali Mardana: I can talk to him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Talk with clear brain. The idea is given. [break] ...be able to do it alone, or we shall go. Or even if he does not say, you go and all organize. It is very important thing. And things are going not right there, and you shall sleep here. That is not good. Bali Mardana: So shall we also make protests? Prabhupāda: No, first of all organize this. Then we shall protest. Bali Mardana: Protest at the meeting. Prabhupāda: Hah. Don't say about protesting now. Bali Mardana: Now. Prabhupāda: Take this, tactfully, that "All right, our ratha will not move. But this is our ceremony. The ratha will stand there." Bali Mardana: So they should get written permission for the ratha to stand there. Prabhupāda: Yes. "Ratha will stand, will not move, unless you sanction. But it is the, one of the part of the ceremony. There must be ratha. How you can stop it?" And from the ratha the palanquin will go to the Trafalgar Square. As usual, we hold our ceremonies and come back. So what is the objection? And if they say, "No, you cannot even keep the ratha," that means there is conspiracy. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That means there is conspiracy. So we should be politicians also [break] ...somebody protested that "Your Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement makes the people dull." And now, you have not seen the Vaiṣṇava. There was two fight in the Indian history. One is Rāma and Rāvaṇa, and one is Kurukṣetra. And the hero is Vaiṣṇava. We are going to produce such Vaiṣṇavas, not these dull rascals, sitting down. We don't want these Vaiṣṇavas, sitting down rascals. We want Arjuna or we want no one. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is wanted. Jayatīrtha: It's time to go back. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...that if we remain rascals, then that Gaurasundara's example will be followed. One day you'll again become crazy and close up everything and smoke. That's all. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, prāṇa arthe yaṅra sei hetu pracāra. "One who has got life, he can preach." The dead man cannot preach. So you become with life, not like dead man. Without life... Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy*-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement. Bahulāśva: Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now, I have given the solution. The ratha must be there. It may not move. That is another thing. It will stand. The Deity will move on palanquin accordingly. Take this sanction. And then, coming back, hold big meeting, protest meeting. Ratha must be there. It will not move. The movement will be by palanquin. I think... I don't think there is any difficulty. How there can be any objection? Reasonably? There cannot be any objection. Let the ratha stand there, and the Deity moves according to your sanction... What objection can be there? Jayatīrtha: Unless there's a conspiracy, there should be no objection. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That will disclose their conspiracy. "We abide by your order that without your order our ratha will not move, go to the Trafalgar... That's all right. You have allowed palanquin. That's accepted." Do like that, tactfully. First of all, take the sanction. In America, in... They have appreciated. That Reverend Powell. No, there is no objection anywhere. Why this rascal, falling*-down nation, British, they're objecting? Apāt-kāle viparīta-buddhi. They are falling down, they will commit offense and discrepancies more and more so that they will be nowhere. I think after this Queen, this monarchy there, the so-called monarchy will be also finished. Because her son, her husband, both of them are hippies. The Queen's husband and Queen's son, the Prince of Wales, both of them are hippies. So this monarchy will be also finished. (pause) What that Mahādeva is doing there in Africa? Brahmānanda: He's not doing very well. Prabhupāda: He's a rascal, and he was given in charge. Another rascal, Śyāmasundara. What he's doing, sitting and..., only? Brahmānanda: Just sitting and writing things that cannot be understood. Prabhupāda: Writing where? Brahmānanda: In the temple. Prabhupāda: And the other? Brahmānanda: He's doing all right. Prabhupāda: Let him stay there. Don't allow him to come out. Yes. Brahmānanda: He was planning to leave any day. Prabhupāda: No, he cannot go. Then we shall charge you all theft charges. Brahmānanda: Which? Prabhupāda: Theft charges. He's, he stolen money, and he has stolen something in Bombay also. Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda, they still have so many debts from last year. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: They still owe money for last year's festival, so many thousands. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is... And even somehow or other, he goes out, then he should not be allowed strictly either in our, this temple or that temple. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Let him go to hell. Brahmānanda: Actually, he was planning to see Revatīnandana Swami. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: He was planning to go and visit Revatīnandana. Prabhupāda: Now, the Revatīnandana and this man and Śyāmasundara is making a clique. I can understand. What they are planning, that also I know. But I don't wish to disclose it. So if these things come, then how this movement will go on? Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating, these are the general qualification of the western countries. Jayatīrtha: Sitting? Prabhupāda: Politics, diplomacy, fraud, cheating. These things are the general qualification of the western people. Do you admit or not? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If they are, these things come within our movement, then it will not be succesful. Tat*-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One has to become purified. Even sometimes we have to take... But that is for Kṛṣṇa's. There must be now checking that all these rascals may not join and spoil the movement. You should not admit. Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: They can come and go. Bali Mardana: We should not make a haven for rascals. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: We should not create a haven for rascals. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how it will be done unless you GBC members become very strong and with good brain? Now, first of all save this situation. This is only solution, as I have suggested, that "The ratha must be there. We are not moving." And take lawyers. And the Deity will be moved. And we'll come to the ratha and go back. That's all. And we shall abide by all the rules. That's all. They saw it that in open sunshine thousands of people, ten thousands of people or more than that, fifteen thousand people, they stood on the Trafalgar Square for three hours. And they do not go to the church. So they must have seen there is something. Otherwise, how people taken so much interest. And there is, actually. Bali Mardana: Yes. Just like in the San Francisco paper they admitted, "This is the most popular festival." Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. San Francisco also. Fifteen thousand people attended my lecture silently. So they are seeing now there is something in this movement, and if this movement, it is allowed to go on without any objection, then Christianity will be finished. That is the conspiracy behind it. That lecture is recorded? The, which I gave in the, that society of the priests and... Satsvarūpa: The fathers? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Yes, I... *Prabhupāda: So you can hear that lecture, how it was. They appreciated so much. We have no disrespect for Christianity. (pause) At least, expose our so*-called Indian ambassador and others... Approach them, that "Help us. What is this? What for you are here?" Even they do not allow by agitation, make the movement very important. Make profit this side or that side. That is businessman. The businessman makes profit when the price is going down and when the price is going up. They make their profit. That is businessman. Just like our Tripurāri, he goes on selling his book in any condition. He finds out some means how to sell in this condition. This is intelligence, how to deal in different circumstances and make profit. That is brain. And if you make condition, "If these conditions are there, then I can make business," that is foolishness. Brahmānanda: You told me that when I came from Pakistan to India. I was complaining how difficult it was, but you said that a businessman makes profit in any circumstances. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is business. They are... Police has no eyes to see that the Bala*-Krishna (Guru Maharaji) is regularly cheating. Any man can understand. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no stoppage of that... Yes. And here, stoppage. Just see. It is clear conspiracy. It is not that police. Police cannot be so powerful that he can stop. If there was any discrepancy, why did not they take step that "You have done... You have violated the rules." They should have prosecuted us. Now, without saying anything at that time, now want to stop it. Jayatīrtha: It's just their tactic. Prabhupāda: It is tactic. They're factually seeing that "These people, they have brought some Jagannātha and thousands of people following it. And nobody's coming to our church?" It is very common sense thing. The church is being closed. And all the young men, they are joining. Not old men, old fools. No. All young, flourishing, young men are joining. So they want to stop it now. (pause) Take it. [break] *Madhukāṇṭa: ...regard, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that we are making counter*-propaganda against māyā, and that māyā will make propaganda very strong. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhukāṇṭa: So we must become very sincere devotees or... Prabhupāda: Unless we are very sincere, we cannot cope with māyā. That is not possible. If you remain a servant of māyā, you cannot conquer over māyā. You must be very sincere servant of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can conquer. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. It is clearly said. Otherwise you are subjected to the tricks of māyā. Bahulāśva: Unless one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then you can get rid of māyā's tricks. Otherwise, you may dress yourself like anything, but you are simply māyā's servant. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung one... Ei ota kalir chelā: "Here is another disciple of Kali." Nake tilaka galai mālā. "He has got tilaka on the nose and mālā, kaṇṭhi, also." Sahaja bhajana kache mamu saṅge lana pare bhalo: "And he's, he has become a Vaiṣṇava by illicit sex." This is stated by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. "Here is a Kali's chelā. He has dressed like a Vaiṣṇava, but he is doing his bhajan with illicit sex." Sahaje bhajana kache mamu saṅge lana pare bhalo. You know? There is a class of sahajiyās? Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇavas. Just like, dress like Rūpa Gosvāmī, loincloth, and, but three dozen women behind him. Bali Mardana: Yes, gopīs. Prabhupāda: So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura: "Here is a disciple of Kali. He has tilaka and he has kunti and he's doing this nonsense." Eita kalir chela. (pause) Bahulāśva: So the purport is that one must strictly follow the principles? Prabhupāda: You do not understand that? Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are asking after twelve thousand years? I am speaking always that. And still you are questioning? Bali Mardana: Should I call immediately or wait till after class? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Should I call Haṁsadūta immediately or wait until after class? Prabhupāda: That is, you use your discrimination. What I can say? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda! (end) Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 14, 1974, Los Angeles *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Morning Walk, Morning walk conversation, July 14, 1974, in Marina del Rey. [break] Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Satsvarūpa: New Vrindaban? (?) [break] Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bali Mardana: The sea is always moving. Prabhupāda: [break] ...phoned about, about my going there? Bali Mardana: To New Vrindaban? Prabhupāda: No. Bali Mardana: Yes, I have told him he is waiting for the date. 'Cause Jayatīrtha, we have not fixed up the flight number yet. Devotee: Haṁsadūta. Jayatīrtha: Oh, Haṁsadūta. Yes. Yes, I spoke to him, we spoke to him yesterday morning. (?) (loud waves drown out voices) Prabhupāda: Atreya? Bali Mardana: Atreya Ṛṣi? Jayatīrtha: Atreya Ṛṣi I have not been able to get through to yet. Bali Mardana: Do you have his telephone number? Jayatīrtha: It's his business. (very loud waves in background) Prabhupāda: You have to take visa for Tehran? Jayatīrtha: (indistinct) *Bali Mardana: [break] ...sanctify the whole world by your footsteps. You are criss*-crossing the world. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. Tīrthī*-kurvanti tīrthāni svāntaḥ-sthena gadābhṛtā. Because a pure devotee carries Kṛṣṇa within his heart, therefore wherever he goes he makes a holy place. It is said in the śāstra. So not me, but every one of you, if you are pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then wherever you'll go, that is a holy place. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni svāntaḥ... To become sannyāsī means that, that he'll be pure devotee, and wherever he will go, he will purify. That is sannyāsa means. Mahad-vicalaṁ nṛnāṁ gṛhināṁ dīna-cetasām. Mahātmās, they'll travel so that the householders, who are cripple-minded and full of sinful activities, they'll go there and make them purified. This is the idea of sannyāsa. And in the Vedic civilization a brahmacārī and a sannyāsī has open door. There is no restriction. No "Beware of dog." (laughter) But now they are prohibited. I have got practical experience. After my sannyāsa, when I was touring India, so in Ahmedabad, or Baroda, I was entering one man's house. So he was standing on the balcony. (laughter) Devotee: Saying "Don't come"? Prabhupāda: "Don't come." Bali Mardana: The age of Kali is perpetrating itself. (pause) Prabhupāda: It is not their fault. Because in India a sannyāsī has become a professional beggar. Just change the dress and you can easily eat without any working. Bali Mardana: And smoke beedies. Prabhupāda: Everything they do. In our childhood we had a house for rental. There was a man. He was a professional beggar. You see? So other members of the house, they'll go to their office. He'll dress himself just like a sannyāsī and go for begging. (laughter) That was his business. (pause) Here in your country there is no such opportunity, but in India there is good opportunity. If you make a dress of sannyāsī, you can go anywhere, and you'll be respectable. They'll give you for eating. Bali Mardana: Especially they prey on the women. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: In Delhi I went to one minister's house to get some papers. I could see in the back of the house the lady was entertaining some sannyāsī with sweetmeats and drinks. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Our men have to change their dress before they go out, brahmacārīs. That's the only way they can beg in this country. Prabhupāda: Yes. Umāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We, because of our fallen condition, do require many mechanical means by which we can offer one another respects and to teach one another examples of scripture. For example, we are asked to bow our bodies down to show respects, or to call one another "prabhu," to understand that each person is a spiritual master to the other. How is a... How are the boys and girls to learn these things in manners of decorum and manners from the sannyāsīs, for example. How are they to offer respects to their godbrothers. And, uh... [break] Prabhupāda: You can. You behave like that, others will learn. Umāpati: For example, I have seen many godbrothers offer one another respects, but I very seldom see that in terms of some of our leaders. Prabhupāda: So some of you show by practical example, guide them. Then others will... Bali Mardana: One person who sees can lead thousands of blind men. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Very good. (pause) [break] ...not for rain, eh? Simply for covering the sun, eh? Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: There's no yajña, so there's no sun. Prabhupāda: Hm. Jayatīrtha: No rain, no sun. *Prabhupāda: No, in the Kali*-yuga it will be like that. There will be cloud, even thunderbolt and lightning, but there will be no rain. That is stated. Bali Mardana: That is very inauspicious. That is not auspicious. Prabhupāda: No. *Jayatīrtha: In the Kṛṣṇa Book you say that this Kali*-yuga is compared to the cloudy season. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Jayatīrtha: The Kali*-yuga is compared to the cloudy season of... Rāmeśvara: The living entities, the living entities. Jayatīrtha: And only by the appearance of Lord Caitanya with the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra are the clouds cleared away. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rāmeśvara: Jaya. Just like sometimes there's a break in the clouds. Sometimes in the Kali*-yuga there's the break, Lord Caitanya's movement. Prabhupāda: Is there any ship here, it is going? No, it is standing. Bali Mardana: There's little flies and bugs. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: They're called sand fleas. Bali Mardana: Sand fleas. Prabhupāda: No. They're eating this. Jayatīrtha: Garbage. Bali Mardana: This? Rāmeśvara: Those are the stones. Prabhupāda: They can eat stone and digest. Bali Mardana: They can eat the sand. Prabhupāda: Sand? Bali Mardana: The sand is made of little stones. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not sand, not sand. Bali Mardana: Pebbles. Prabhupāda: What is this? Bali Mardana: Snails. Umāpati: Shells. No, birds eat stones too. Prabhupāda: No. Yes. They eat that. Jayatīrtha: No, I don't know. They get nutrition from the stones? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. You said they have a special power to digest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Especially these, what is this called? Duck? Bahulāśva: Pigeon. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, pigeon. Yes. Prabhupāda: Peacock. Peacock also. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They swallow the... Prabhupāda: Peacock also, they can digest. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can swallow the very hard peas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they can digest very easily. Prabhupāda: (loud waves) ...I have seen. Bali Mardana: According to Vedic culture, is seaweed edible? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bali Mardana: Seaweed? Is that edible? Prabhupāda: I don't find. Why they should eat seaweed? Bali Mardana: In Asia, many people eat seaweed. Certain types of plants that grow in the sea. Prabhupāda: No, no. Rāmeśvara: In America it is very popular. Prabhupāda: That is all right, but why man should eat seaweed? *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: When there are so many nice things. Prabhupāda: There are so many vegetables. Bali Mardana: If vegetables are not available. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: They don't have to cultivate seaweed. They just take. Jayatīrtha: They have to go diving with lungs and tanks to collect it rather than plough the earth. Rāmeśvara: They consider it a delicacy in the restaurants for the macrobiotic people, the young people who are into health foods. It's a health food. It's a delicacy. Prabhupāda: This is also eaten. (laughter) Yes. This is eaten by the Japanese. They eat it. Bali Mardana: They say it contains much iodine, certain minerals. Prabhupāda: They make some food and it is sold. What is called, that? They make some cakes by soaking in the water. Devotee: Soybean? Prabhupāda: Not soybean. They make some foodstuff. In India also they are making now. When I was in Ahmedabad, guest of one Mr. Patel, his business is to collect this. And he's a chemist also. And prepare some food. And he's got good business. Svarūpa Dāmodara: One of the plans for science in the future is the food from the ocean. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Food from the ocean is already there*-fishes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, not only fishes. They're trying to investigate more. Prabhupāda: Fish is not sufficient? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, fish is not enough. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: They're never satisfied with the foods they take. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Investigation is going on about the availability of food in the ocean. *Jayatīrtha: Also. They want to recycle the stool. There's one big plan to make a big city, and then the stool is recycled, and sixty percent can be again re*-eaten. Umāpati: I heard that in Russia they're already making butter from stool. Jayatīrtha: Because the body doesn't efficiently take all the nutrients. Prabhupāda: Yes. They can make butter. This market butter is sometimes coming from stool. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: We have to get our own cows very quickly. Umāpati: Here too, in this country also, they're making butter from stool? Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: In this country also they're doing that? Prabhupāda: The... I... No. During wartime the German people did it, at least. Bahulāśva: Now they're making artificial milk also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Bahulāśva: : They're advertising. "It's just like milk without the sour taste, without the bitter taste." Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are propagating that milk is not good for the (indistinct) natural milk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Some scientist came to see me in Melbourne. He was speaking like that. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was saying that milk is not good. Jayatīrtha: Stool is good, but milk is not good. (laughter) Umāpati: That's all right if you're a pig. Prabhupāda: Stool is good... We see the pigs. They eat stool. They become very fatty. Bali Mardana: Stout. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: They have no brain for understanding Kṛṣṇa. That only comes from milk? Prabhupāda: Milk? Bahulāśva: To have a good brain for understanding Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Not eating so much. Bahulāśva: Oh. Bali Mardana: Some devotees think that if they eat large quantities of milk, the more they eat, the more their brain will become big. Prabhupāda: No. That is rajasic. Bali Mardana: Rajasic. Prabhupāda: Especially for devotee, too much eating is very, very bad. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ [NoI 2]. Too much eating is very bad. Bali Mardana: They should only take what is necessary. Prabhupāda: And too much collecting money also. That is also not good. *Kṛṣṇa*-kānti: Too much what? Prabhupāda: Collecting money. (pause) Svarūpa Dāmodara: We were discussing that in all the living bodies, we have these innumerable cells, living cells. And in these cells... We were just discussing whether the Paramātmā and the jīvātmā is still there even in the living cells. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is. It is there. So actually our body's a combination of these so many living entities. *Prabhupāda: Atoms, yes. Why not? The every living entity is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. So many hairs are there. And that is one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. Where is the difficulty. Bali Mardana: So there is one jīvātma who's in control of the body. The others are subservient. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīvātma is everywhere. But you have got your own field. Just like for agricultural purpose you have got a big field, but there are so many millions of microbes and... Bali Mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: But it is your field. Not that when you go out of the field one of them becomes you. No, that is not. That is individuality. When you leave, you leave your field. That's all. Bali Mardana: So when we leave the field, then the other cells in the body also leave their field. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the germs come out as soon as it is proper time. So these nonsense, they do not know that, that the... Creating life, the ingredients... If they say that material combination makes life, so material combination is there already. Why the, that man is not coming? That is... He's individual, and they are also individual. I have got my field. I am individual. I leave it. But because there are so many other microbes, they will come as me. No, that is not possible. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, yes, but temporarily, I cannot live without them. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: I cannot live in my body without them. Prabhupāda: Without them... You cannot live with this material body without so many conditions. And that is also one of the conditions. You cannot live. Any condition, little disturbed... You become diseased; you become disturbed. So therefore it is called conditional life. You simply live here on condition. And spiritual life means no condition. If the condition is favorable, then your senses will act. Otherwise you have got useless senses. If there is light, then you can see. You can become proud of your eyes. "Can you show me God?" And what you can see, rascal? If God gives you light, then you can see. You see under condition. And still, he's very proud of his eyes. "Can you show me God?" This is going on. Rascal, what you can see? Devotees: Watch out! (ocean water apparently comes up to devotees.) Jayatīrtha: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Ah. Govinda. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: The water's coming up to touch your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (loud waves) So we are conditioned. And still, we are searching out the truth. What is your truth? You are conditioned. Bali Mardana: So they only end up with a conditioned truth, a relative truth. *Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you are not conditioned, the more your finding out truth is perfect. But it is not possible for you to become completely unconditioned. That is not possible. That is mukta puruṣa, liberated. Therefore we have to take knowledge from the person who is not conditioned. That is perfect knowledge. And one who is conditioned, what is the value of his giving knowledge? So therefore we don't accept any knowledge from the conditioned souls. Conditioned soul is imperfect by the four deficiencies. Bhrama, pramadā... He must commit mistake. So what is the value of his knowledge? There is no value. We take knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unconditioned. There is a verse in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavata: eṣad īśānām īśasya. That is God. God means He becomes, He comes within this material world, but He's not conditioned. That is Kṛṣṇa. Bali Mardana: And His representative. Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole thing is managed by the law of gravitation, but when Kṛṣṇa lifted the hill, there was no weight. He's not conditioned by the law of gravity. He can lift up. We cannot do because we are conditioned. And when they cannot understand God's inconceivable power, they think it is all mythology. Because he is a rascal, he thinks Kṛṣṇa also rascal. Bali Mardana: They try to put Kṛṣṇa within the framework of their own... Prabhupāda: Yes. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because Kṛṣṇa is kindly become visible to our eyes, these rascals immediately take Him as one of us. By His kindness He's coming to be visible by us, to listen Him, His instructions, but these mūḍhās will take Him as ordinary human being. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the consciousness, my consciousness... The consciousness of those living cells are dependent on my consciousness. *Prabhupāda: No, that consciousness is not developed. It is not equal to your consciousness. Just like a child's consciousness is not equal to your consciousness because he's not yet developed, similarly, this human life is the full*-fledged... Not full-fledged. Almost full demonstration of consciousness. We have to utilize it for higher understanding. From material conditions, the consciousness develops. On account of loss of consciousness, they become godless. So it requires time. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is to help them to develop consciousness very quickly. Yes. Otherwise, it will take millions of years. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścit yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. We are helping people to develop that original consciousness very quickly. [break] *Svarūpa Dāmodara: These cells, the micro*-cells, they divide. They... Just like... *Prabhupāda: Let them do whatever they do, but still, Kṛṣṇa is there. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ govindam ādi-puruṣam tam ahaṁ bhajāmi [Bs. 5.35]**. [break] ...your undeveloped conscious, more you are servant of nature. The mo... As you have got less developed consciousness,... Just like the dog and the girl, she is developed consciousness. Therefore the dog, less conscious, it is serving. Similarly, if you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, then you have to serve māyā. *Bahulāśva: Kali*-dāsa. (japa) Prabhupāda: To serve māyā means to accept this material body. māyā will give you a dress according to your karma, and you'll have to work. This will continue. Bali Mardana: Oh. So those who do not develop their Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully must again take a birth. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Bali Mardana: Who? Prabhupāda: Girirāja. Bali Mardana: Girirāja. Prabhupāda: Yes. He said, "Everyone is God." Somebody said. So Girirāja said, "I am God?" "Yes, you are God." "Then I can take your money?" "Yes." And he gave him some money, all the money. (laughter) So out of sentiment, whatever money he had in his pocket, he gave him. Umāpati: It was ninety dollars. Prabhupāda: Eh? Umāpati: Ninety dollars it was. Prabhupāda: Anyway... Bali Mardana: He was caught in his own philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: By the same trick, Madhudviṣa Swami once got someone to take all of his clothes off and give it to him. "If everything is all one, then you will not mind giving me your clothes." *Prabhupāda: No. Their philosophy is "We are one. What is mine, that is mine. And your*-also mine. (laughter) Therefore we are one." And as soon as you'll say, "No, why not your mine?" that is, that is not agreeable. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That type of philosophy will not last long. (long pause) Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the highly developed consciousness that, in the body, which is highly, consciousness which is highly developed... Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, devotee. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in the... Prabhupāda: Highly developed consciousness means he's a devotee. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but what is the relationship of those individuals who are living with him, though they are not conscious. Prabhupāda: They will live. Just like a dog live with you. But you are developed; he's not developed. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still, he's benefited. Prabhupāda: Eh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's benefited from the consciousness of the master. Prabhupāda: Yes. So... If the master is devotee, then he's benefited. Kīṭa janma hau yathā tuwā dāsa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings that "Let me become a worm in the house of a devotee. If I have to take birth, I don't want a life, nondevotional life, even it is like Brahmā. I'll prefer to become a worm in the house of a devotee." This is the prayer of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Similarly, when we associate with a spiritual master who has Kṛṣṇa consciousness, automatically we also have some taste. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Students. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means enhancing spiritual taste. That is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt [SB 11.2.42]. And as he increases his spiritual taste, he becomes (sic:) detestful to this material enjoyment. This is the taste. Jayatīrtha: We should engage the hippies in keeping this place clean. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: The hippies are simply sleeping, and the beach remains dirty. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: Mismanagement. Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end) Room Conversation -- August 5, 1974, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...the business of the representative of Kṛṣṇa to push the nipple. (?) Because they know what is the necessity. The whole world is upset for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the necessity. It is not a, I mean to say, whimsical sporting. It is the necessity. But they do not know. It is a very responsible task. That is called prayojana. Is it clear? What do you think? Huh? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, they... There has to be... Prabhupāda: They do not know. The scientists, they do not know what is the necessity. (laughs) Do they know? Do you think, all the scientists, do they know? Svarūpa Dāmodara: If they know, they'll be all bhaktas. Prabhupāda: They do not know. Devotee: They think it is necessary to gratify the senses. Prabhupāda: They think that, that by gratifying senses... Therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad. Brahmānanda: Chewing the chewed. *Prabhupāda: Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ. By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras, there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham [SB 7.9.45]. Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena... They examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing. So therefore it is advised that tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. By itching, by satisfying the senses, itching sensation, then troubles and miserable condition increasing. That they do not know. Increasing. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Bahu means much, duḥkha means miserable condition. Therefore one who is sensible: kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. The dhīra, one (who) is sober, he understands, "What I am doing? I am simply trying to eat and the disease is increasing. Therefore it must be stopped." This is called dhīra. That is called dhīra. That is, one word is used, dhīra, in Kumāra-sambhava. That Pārvatī was induced. Lord Śiva was in meditation, and the necessity was that Kārttikeya... Kārttikeya means, "With the semina of Lord Śiva and Pārvatī's, what is called? Semen, they mix together, the child will be born. He can kill these demons." Therefore Kārttik... So Lord Śiva was engaged in meditation. So Pārvatī was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Śiva. That... Therefore they introduced this, Śiva-liṅga is worshiped. Śiva-liṅga. So when she was worshiping, a young girl touching the genital, but he was sitting without any disturbance. Therefore he has been described, dhīra. Dhīra. One who is not disturbed by the sex impulse even in the presence of very beautiful young girl, he is called dhīra. So kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ. One has to become dhīra. That is wanted. Just like Haridāsa, Ṭhākura. Twice he was induced by very beautiful young girl at dead of night. But he remained... "Yes, I'll satisfy you." He turned... That is called dhīra. There is another place. The dhīra word is used in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahmānanda: Even by death he is not disturbed. *Prabhupāda: Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra. Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then... That is the prayojana*-siddhi, to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajan, devotional service of the Lord means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. Going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu [Cc. Madhya 11.8]. It is dangerous, it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam, to mix with the... Or... Mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām. To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra, he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra. Then we are fit candidate for going back to home, back to Godhead. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. (?) *Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana*-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahan(?). And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana, He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī. *Brahmānanda: One is Madan*-madan? *Prabhupāda: One is Madana, and Kṛṣṇa enchants Madana. Kṛṣṇa is so beautiful that Madana becomes enchanted by Kṛṣṇa. And Rādhārāṇī is so beautiful that Kṛṣṇa becomes enchanted. That is spiritual sex. That is not ordinary. Therefore the attraction of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary thing. Rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir, this is the spiritual energy, display of spiritual energy. But the sahajiyās, they take as material attractions. As we are attracted, men and women, similarly, they take the Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa attraction... (end) Conversation -- January 3, 1975, Bombay Devotee: . . . volume two. That was from Jayatīrtha. This is actually the most complete report. Everything else is additional to this. It is very, uh, all the details. "My Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, Please accept my worthless obeisances at your divine lotus feet. I pray that by your divine mercy I will obtain unquestioning faith in your instructions. It appears from all evidence of the revealed scriptures that it is in this way only my spiritual life will develop and mature. I have been in Hawaii now for one week, and I beg to issue the following report." This is dated December 22nd. "1. The history: I have been aware for some time that Sudāmā was having spiritual difficulties, since in September he had flown to Los Angeles to see me. At that time he was on the verge of blooping due to an illicit homosexual affair with his servant that had been going on for some months. I preached to him and tried to encourage him as much as possible. A few days later . . ." Prabhupāda: Oh, he admitted that, Sudāmā? Devotee: Yeah, Yeah. He also said later that he had admitted that to you. Did he? Prabhupāda: What? He said that . . . Devotee: He had broken a principle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, like that . . . (indistinct) Devotee: "A few . . ." Prabhupāda: He is conscious of his sinful activities. *Devotee: Yes. "A few days later I flew to Māyāpur to see you in regards to Bali*-mardana, etc., and I had planned to visit Hawaii on the way back to Los Angeles to see how Sudāmā was doing. Unfortunately, Sudāmā was on the U.S. mainland, and when I landed in Hawaii, so I could not talk with him to see if his condition had improved. After returning to Los Angeles I tried to contact him, but he proved to be very elusive. When I finally did get hold of him, he told me that he had just returned from Māyāpur, that everything was all right with him, and that he had admitted his homosexual affair to you and that you had given him permission to work independently of the GBC." Prabhupāda: Just see. Gurukṛpā: He told me that also. Prabhupāda: He, told . . . Gurukṛpā: He came to Japan on his way to Hawaii, and he told me that. Prabhupāda: He . . . he came to Māyāpur for this reason. Gurukṛpā: He said that you had told him that, he only had . . . Prabhupāda: He can say anything. How do you believe it? Gurukṛpā: It wasn't my concern, because I was only in Japan. Prabhupāda: And how others will believe it? He'll say that he has supported my homosex and . . . Devotee: He can say anything. Prabhupāda: Rascal. Rascal. Once one becomes rascal, he becomes more and more and more and more and more. So I have no information whether he admitted or not. He simply tendered that it is not yet finished, prepared, so if you come then I will have to arrange like this. No other place. You were present there? Devotee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That means he told his plan, to come here, that "I have taken permission." Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: Go on. Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla . . ." Prabhupāda: This is completely false. Rather, I told Brahmānanda that that cannot be. He cannot act independently. There is no question. Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Jagadīśa and Hṛdayānanda dāsa." Prabhupāda: But how this is . . . this is another nonsense. How did you believe him? He came to me, and he reported in his own way, and why you became so foolish that to believe him? Where is my written statement? Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: He, he will tell according to his convenience, but how did he believe it? Without asking me, and without my confirmation, now they began to consult Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Their first foolishness is "How did he believe him?" Ask him like that, that "How did you ?" You did not ask me whether it is fact; now you are reporting, and you began to consult amongst yourselves. Gurukṛpā: This is in September. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Yes in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no intelligence that he said whether it is fact. He should have asked me, that "Sudāmā has told me like this," and whether it is fact. So without asking me they began to consult. What is the meaning? Gurukṛpā: So they consulted. They discussed the matter between themselves, and concluded . . . Prabhupāda: What is the matter? There is no subject matter they consulted. Just see, this kind of intelligent . . . unintelligent class of men we have in our society. How these things are remain . . . (indistinct) . . . they have no intelligence. So now we are discussing on the subject matter whether it is a subject matter to be discussed. They have no sense of . . . how I can manage? He came; he came; he came—spoiling money. What can I do? How did he take the subject matter to be discussed? Where is the subject matter? Ask him: without asking me, how you took it as a subject matter for discussion. You know that he has gone astray, you can say so many lies, and I would support it, homosex. Gurukṛpā: Much of this could have been avoided if he would have . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: This could have been avoided . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: . . . all this stealing and mismanagement, if he would have been stopped in September, when he first announced. Prabhupāda: How can I know? Gurukṛpā: You did not . . . Prabhupāda: The GBC was there. He was GBC! Nobody informed me what is going on. Devotee: Jayatīrtha says he knew. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Jayatīrtha said that he knew he was in difficulty, but he tried to stop and see him, but he was being elusive. He was . . . he stopped at Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: He was elusive to him, and what he said about seeing me, that was correct. Just see! He knew that he is elusive, and still, whatever he said, that "I am sinful. What Swami has said, like this, I do." That is not elusive. That is corrupt. This class of intelligence, how they can manage? They have no common sense, then how can I believe this rascal? I have taken him as elusive. Then, how can I take him that whatever he says is all right? And now, let us consult. Just see! It is very difficult. Where is the subject matter now they began to consult? What do you think? Gurukṛpā: I think he should have informed you. Prabhupāda: At least it should have been confirmed that, yes, he, "Oh, I said like this." Devotee (3): It should have been in writing. Without it in writing . . . Gurukṛpā: Last year when I received one letter from Karāndhara, I came to you and asked you, "Did you write that?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Because I was doubting. And it was a fact that he had put in some of his own words there. Prabhupāda: That is what I say, "Consult." Gurukṛpā: Well, they said they consulted, and we concluded that since you were going to come here in December that we would leave things until you arrived. Prabhupāda: So everything else, what did you do when you asked him? Did Sudāmā say like this? Devotee: That was two months . . . that was September, and he said that since you were coming in December then we will leave it. "So we suggested to Sudāmā that Kīrtanānanda Swami be allowed to come to Hawaii to see how things were going and to enliven the devotees, but Sudāmā . . ." *Prabhupāda: Therefore I said to Brahmānanda that I cannot go on this Bombay after, you go. Things are not going nice there. And Brahmānanda was advised . . . I think too that we consulted that Guru*-kṛpā should be in charge. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: You know that? Gurukṛpā: That was . . . Prabhupāda: That was my advice. Then? Devotee: "Sudāmā was adamant that no GBC man should come." Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: "After receiving Brahmānanda Swami's telegram saying that still Sudāmā did not want you to come, I called Sudāmā and demanded an explanation. He claims that actually he did not . . . he did want you to come, but he was short of funds. I promised to help with the funds, and he seemed satisfied. I then telegrammed Your Divine Grace that it was all right to come. Two days later, Sudāmā called me in Portland and told me he was resigning the next day, and that I should come immediately. I also received a call from one of the older brahmacārīs here, saying that the situation was very bad and all the temple leaders had resigned, including Sudāmā and Subala dāsa . . . or Subala Swami, and that they were actively preaching to influence the devotees to move out of the temple and live independently. After hearing this, I immediately came and also invited Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, who was in Los Angeles at the time, to come. Upon arrival we immediately began to preach very strongly about the necessities of strictly following the instructions of the spiritual master. Those who are very sincere have stayed on, but about a dozen devotees left with Sudāmā. They are operating the restaurant that was given to the society by Alfred Ford after having arranged legally to have the ownership transferred into their names." Prabhupāda: How Alfred was induced to transfer in their names? Devotee: Well, he explains that a little bit later, because I think there is this one boy named Atulānanda, who is Sudāmās closest friend, one of his closest friends. And he is actually the person who is an old friend of Alfred Ford's since childhood. And I think he is the one who has been doing all the negotiations. Prabhupāda: So . . . a man becomes confidential devotee because there is something cheap. How such things can become. Then? *Devotee: "Number 2. What they are preaching: I cannot claim to fully understand what they are preaching, but I will try to explain it as best I can. First of all, they are outspokenly against ISKCON's leadership and are outspokenly against our tactics on saṅkīrtana book distribution as well as what they claim are deplorable conditions in the temples. They agree that the basic principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as taught by you, are the first*-class method, but that it is too much difficult to be followed by people in the West. Therefore they think that since it is too difficult to follow strictly, that they should move out of the temple, get a job, etc. One of them, Jamadagni dāsa, who is their leader, told one of our brahmacāriṇīs , "If you are having a hard time in the temple you should move outside, get a boyfriend, go to the movies, etc." *Prabhupāda: The thing is, now this attitude is . . . Bali*-mardana is also like this. They want relaxation, flexibility. Devotee: Flexibility. Prabhupāda: That means that spiritually fallen, fallen down. Then what else? Devotee: "The most disturbing thing they are saying is that Your Grace is perfect spiritually but not materially; that is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That "perfect spiritually" means the materially rejected. Devotee: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: "That is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa, but that you may not know how best to engage each person, that you can't see everyone in all places and time, and that therefore so many discrepancies exist within the ISKCON structure; that the structure and its leadership cannot be at all trusted, and that it therefore provides no shelter. Of course, they still claim to be your disciples, but they admit they cannot follow your instructions." Prabhupāda: What kind of disciples? They accept, "You are spiritual master," but "I cannot follow your instructions." That means this GBC's failure. I wanted the GBC. They are themselves fallen, victim. Not very well carried out. This GBC was meant for vigilance, that every, everything is going on nicely according to the instruction. They themselves . . . Karāndhara? Then? Devotee: "Sudāmā, for example, is planning on starting a dance troupe. When asked what he would do if Your Divine Grace asked him to do something else instead, he said: "I would have to do it anyway." In summary, it seems to me at least that they are minimizing the value of the spiritual master's instructions and at the same time, when we attack them on that same point, they deny it and claim rather that we're just fanatics, impersonal, etc. Actually we have tried to be nice to them, but at the same time we have tried to keep the philosophical points clear so that the devotees will not become bewildered." Prabhupāda: Hm. Then? *Devotee: "Number 3. The land situation: Of course we are living on the land, and the Deities are installed. We have been making your quarters ready, and I hope that you will be pleased with them. The land has been completely paid off by Alfred Ford, and he will also pay all property taxes. He had offered to lease us the land for a dollar per year and at the same time to turn over one*-third ownership yearly to ISKCON until it was completely in our name." Prabhupāda: Let it . . . let it be done in writing. Devotee: Yes, he, he . . . I'll just go on reading. He requests that, "He had to do this rather than give it outright for tax reasons. The problem is that Alfred Ford's main contact with ISKCON has been through Atulānanda dāsa, Alfred's lifetime friend. But now Atulānanda has gone with Sudāmā, and Sudāmā has told me that you do not want the property in ISKCON's name." Prabhupāda: Just see. Whatever he says, it is all right. Then what, who's next? Devotee: Well, he is . . . "Sudāmā also reports that Alfred is not pleased with ISKCON, does not trust ISKCON, etc. Also on several occasions they have made veiled threats, like "We can have you all thrown off the property in a minute." " Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: They are saying, Sudāmā and his men are saying to the devotees, "We can have you all thrown off this property in a minute." Because they have the connection with Alfred Ford. Prabhupāda: Ha. So he . . . he is creating some impression of ISKCON. That was his policy, so that the property can be given in his name as he has taken the restaurant. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That was his plan, therefore he did not like that I should go there. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I understand. Or any GBC go there. That is the whole plan. Devotee: He goes on to say that, "At any rate it seems difficult to put too much into developing the property unless we have some assurance one way or another that Alfred Ford will not ask us to leave. The land is the absolute manifestation of paradise, so it would be very nice if it could be kept." Prabhupāda: So, write one letter to Alfred that this is the position. Or? Shall I write to him or not? Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then it will only be Sudāmā's speaking with him. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: He may . . . he may get them to change it over, very easily. Prabhupāda: Huh? He is doing that? Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then Sudāmā will be the only one that will influence him. Prabhupāda: You write to him, that "Sudāmā has left our camp; he has nothing to do with ISKCON. He has nothing to be recognized. He has his own plan. So under the circumstances I want to see you." What shall I write? He, he may poisioned? Devotee: It looks as if they have already poisoned him some, because according to Sudāmā he doesn't trust ISKCON. He doesn't . . . he is not pleased with ISKCON. Prabhupāda: So. Devotee: But I think that he is definitely submissive to yourself. Prabhupāda: So I can . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: This sex, this illicit sex, how is killing him. Illicit sex is so dangerous. He's a good boy. Similarly, Gaurasundara is killed by this illicit sex. Everyone will be killed with the illicit sex. That is the difficulty—falldown. What can I do? I have already given instruction. If they do not follow, they fall down. That is sure. So dangerous. And in our society it is very easy to have affair, so many girls are there. I can say "Don't do this," but if you do, what can I do? So, what you have written, Alfred? Devotee: "Sudāmā has left our camp. He has his own plans, so under the circumstances . . ." Prabhupāda: Ahah, "He has his own camp, and he has violated our rules and regulations and fallen down. Under the circumstances don't be influenced by him, unless you see me." Is that all right? Gurukṛpā: Unless he sees you? Prabhupāda: Yes. So "I am coming very soon in Hawaii. I am very much busy in Bombay for some business" . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is this. Karāndhara has done some . . . I trusted so much. How you can . . .? This is the poison, illicit sex, and this poison will kill everything. This is the poison. And I cannot understand whether I shall be able to save my disciples from this poison. This is the poison. They do not take it seriously, but in the beginning I said, "No illicit sex." If you want . . . (indistinct) . . . these four principles, if they are not strictly followed, then he's victimized forever—today or tomorrow. He should take little time, of his time, to save himself. Artificially, that will not save him; *he will fall down. Kṛṣṇa can excuse for some time, but it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Api cet su*-durācāro ( BG 9.30). If unconsciously, or if you have some accidentally falldown, that is excused. But purposefully—it is all rascaldom. Bali-mardana fell. Karāndhara fell. Sudāmā fell. And gradually they are falling down. What can I do? I say that you shall remain fixed up in this way, but if you do not accept it, then how can I help you? If I say that "Don't dry your knife on your neck," and if you do it, so how can I save you? Gurukṛpā: I think that there is no saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: They get too much business and no saṅkīrtana , then they forget. Prabhupāda: Well, why too much business? Who . . . (indistinct) . . . business? Gurukṛpā: That is the case of all the devotees that have fallen. They have stopped doing saṅkīrtana and just strictly business. And then they forget. I know myself, if I don't do some saṅkīrtana every day, I usually become agitated. But if I can do two . . . Prabhupāda: That is also advised. But if you do not do it, then sixteen rounds first be done. This is not saṅkīrtana ? Gurukṛpā: Myself, I need more than . . . Prabhupāda: More than anyone. This is the . . . every letter, every time it is stressed that "You must finish sixteen rounds." Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is real saṅkīrtana —at least sixteen rounds. But if you do not follow, then how can you be saved? Saved without saṅkīrtana —for this is stressed in every letter. Gurukṛpā: Yes, you stress, but they do not do. Prabhupāda: Then if they do not follow the instruction of the spiritual master, then how you can be saved? You are fallen; I say "Catch this rope. I'll take you, take you out." But if you do not catch? Then? What is next? Devotee: Well, the next report is the restaurant. "The restaurant was purchased with a $12,000 donation from Alfred Ford and was fixed up with a $2000 loan from Peter Burwash, a local Life Member. Last month, Sudāmā arranged legally to have the restaurant transferred into the joint ownership of Sudāmā, Taruṇa Kānti, Atulānanda and Peter Burwash. Sudāmās claim was that Alfred Ford had meant the $12,000 as a loan and not as a donation, and that he did not trust that ISKCON would ever pay it back, but apparently that he did trust that Sudāmā would pay it back. Sudāmā also managed to transfer ownership of several of the temple vehicles to his name, and in addition he took with him . . . " Prabhupāda: Why not take criminal charges against him? Prosecute him. So that would be another trouble. That is also not advisable, eh? Gurukṛpā: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . that every member is trustworthy for money, everything, and if you . . . Devotee: He says . . . Prabhupāda: Pālikā, she has not come? Pālikā? Gurukṛpā: She is here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: She is here. Prabhupāda: Where? I called. (rings a bell) So, you have begun cooking? Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, I wanted ordinary rice . . . (indistinct) . . . khichuri . Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so what, what is the use of hearing? (aside) I changed my mind, next time. He has plan. What is the plan? Then? You read? Have you read the whole thing? Devotee: No, there is a little bit more. "He says that he took the large bus which was being used for traveling saṅkīrtana . He plans to sell this bus, which is worth about $6000 or $7000, and invest the proceeds in getting his thing together. He claims that the bus was purchased with a personal donation from Alfred Ford. But I have been unable to either prove or disprove that statement. But at any rate it seems as that they're using Alfred Ford's devotion to you for their own personal benefit." Prabhupāda: Therefore it must go. A letter must go immediately. *Devotee: We will send a letter today. "5. The temple financial situation: Sudāmā has left us about $30,000 in debt, and with no substantial assets. We have one broken*-down 1960 Volkswagen, one broken-down truck, and not a penny in the bank. The saṅkīrtana party was practically nonexistent. Daily collections were under $50, and only two or three men were going out for a couple of hours per day. They had been preaching to the book distributors that what they were doing was . . ." Prabhupāda: One thing is, that why they are reporting? Why . . . what steps they have taken? The GBC's main policy, simply reporting to me vague reports? Gurukṛpā: They suggested that I should go and pay the bill. Prabhupāda: Yes, you should go immediately. We know the situation, and do if, if proper, and possible take criminal . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: Yeah, but the $30,000, that money, he expects me to collect that money and pay that, which is your money. Because I have the money for Māyāpur. Instead of giving to Māyāpur, we pay these bills. Devotee: So this, this is the basic report, but then these other letters go into the . . . see, this is Jayatīrtha before he has even seen Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: This is before Brahmānanda has arrived. Prabhupāda: So what I shall do by hearing the report? GBC allow them to do whatever they like. No restriction; there is no inspection. There is only . . . What is the use of GBC? He was doing all these things planned, and the GBC could not understand? So what can I do? . . . (indistinct) . . . huh? So go and . . . He is such a traitorous boy, no respect. One traitor is . . . Gaurasundara was not so much traitor. He is a gross traitorous. Gaurasundara, he took money, he sent some money to our . . . (indistinct) . . . but he paid everything. He has taken all the money from Gaurasundara; he is a great traitorous. So what you think, what is to be done now? Gurukṛpā: Well, the only thing to do is that if Alfred Ford wants the land back, then we will have to find another place and simply pick up from where we left off. Prabhupāda: No. Alfred, unless he is poisoned, he is not bewildered. Gurukṛpā: No, but if he doesn't want it, we can remain there . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Gurukṛpā: . . . and have the plans for the temple, and if he does want it then we have to move. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: But in the meantime, the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: That means he may not be poisoned. So I'll have to go. In the meantime, you go. Where . . . when is your ultimate time? Gurukṛpā: I am leaving tomorrow at 6 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurukṛpā: In the morning. Prabhupāda: What other points? *Devotee: Well that was just about it, other than the financial situation is very bad, and he says the only place they can do book distribution there is on Waikiki Beach. And there is already about half a dozen semi*-blooped devotees doing saṅkīrtana there to maintain themselves, including Bali-mardana's wife. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Well, but they say that the saṅkīrtana there is very difficult. The only place that they can do it is Waikiki Beach. Gurukṛpā: I think that is a fact. Prabhupāda: Huh. Gurukṛpā: It is not a good place for collecting, at all. It is very . . . the rich people, they have shopping places, but the police are very, very . . . Because they are rich, and this is the only place, and that is not so good. Devotee: But he says anyway . . . Gurukṛpā: Sudāmā used to have his . . . some men in America sending him money. They would stay on the mainland and do saṅkīrtana and sent the money back to Hawaii. He was doing that. Devotee: But he seems to think that . . . he says that, "At any rate I am confident that we will be able to maintain the temple and extinguish the debt." Gurukṛpā: How is that? Devotee: I don't know. Gurukṛpā: $30,000? Devotee: It doesn't make sense. Prabhupāda: Then, what else? *Devotee: So that . . . he says that . . . number 6 is new management. "I have brought one of the best men in my zone here to help manage affairs. His name is Ānandavardhana dāsa adhikārī . He is intelligent, regulated and sincere and has good experience in management of our Denver temple. Denver has been by far the best*-managed temple in the western zone, as I have several times reported to you, and Ānandavardhana , as the number-two man there, was very instrumental in bringing it up to that standard. In addition, I am bringing Mahātmā dāsa from Vancouver, former president, to act as number-two man. He is also very enthusiastic and intelligent and is a very good book distributor. *I feel confident that between the two of them the management of this temple will go on well. I know from Bhagavān that Your Divine Grace has suggested that perhaps Guru*-kṛpā Swami could come here. My personal feeling is that it might be valuable for him to come here for some time and preach, but that they would probably not want to stay on permanently to maintain the center. Also, saṅkīrtana could never be as lucrative as Tokyo, and this important source of revenue for the Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust would be stopped. Of course, if Your Divine Grace decides that they should definitely come, I will work with them very happily. I personally have great respect for them, and I feel them to be very well qualified." Prabhupāda: That is all right . . . (indistinct) . . . so now, what you think we should do? Gurukṛpā: We can go . . . Prabhupāda: And help them for some time. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then? Gurukṛpā: But the quest . . . quest . . . Prabhupāda: You know that the collection is not possible there. Gurukṛpā: Yes, not much. Prabhupāda: So let them do that; you can go to South America. *Gurukṛpā: So Hṛdayānanda should be written a letter and asked to co*-operate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what else? *Devotee: "Number 7 is Danger to the Society. I'm a little bit worried about this turn of events, because it appears to my mundane vision that it may pre*-stage an actual philosophical division amongst your disciples. In reading your Caitanya-caritāmṛta Chapter Twelve in reference to the followers of Advaita Ācārya and how some followers gradually developed their own opinion of devotional service, which was different from the instructions of their guru , but still claim to be followers, I think that I have perceived some parallels in the present situation. At the same time it appears that things are ripe for such a split, especially after so many signs of corruption amongst the society's leaders have recently come to light, thus providing a good excuse for those who want to work outside the authority structure of the society to do so. I am actually fearful that this anti-ISKCON party feeling may spread widely in the society, although I realize that the best defense to this would be to send . . ." Prabhupāda: We simply counteract if we remain sincere and follow the spiritual master, nobody can harm you. But if you are not so strong, then there will be trouble. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: But if you stick to your position, as I have advised, then you will be successful. *Gurukṛpā: This was like Siddha*-svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: It just kind of fell apart after a while. Prabhupāda: He could not be able to do. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara . . . they are all localized. That is not . . . if we stick to our principles, then it will be all right. Devotee: Hm. Then he has one request at the end. "Your Divine Grace has for several years spent most of the time in India. At the same time, so much nonsense has happened in the society. So many big leaders have fallen down, etc. Of course, at the same time so many aspects of our movement have progressed nicely. I think, however, that your presence in the West will counteract all of this bad influence. I sincerely think, therefore, that if you can come and stay in Hawaii for a good part of the next year, that all of the poison in the society will be removed." Prabhupāda: So I'm going. I'm going. You go. I shall remain in South America and you shall do the needful, that is all. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: I'm going. So I am simply waiting. I have arranged for visiting the governor for this purpose. But that is also a big clique. The secretaries, they are not arranging the meeting. This is the position everywhere. Then? Devotee: He says that if you come . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is the remedy. So I shall have to go to Hawaii immediately, as soon as possible. If you go, I will try to go. Gurukṛpā: Should I . . . Prabhupāda: Simply I'm waiting for this governor's meeting. As soon as it is done, I shall go. Gurukṛpā: Should I go to Tokyo and wait for you there, and then go with you to Hawaii, or should I go all the way to Hawaii? There are some things that I have to settle up in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: More settle around you, then go. Gurukṛpā: I should wait for you in Tokyo? Prabhupāda: That I shall let you know this evening. Gurukṛpā: Okay. Or you can just pass Tokyo up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Because I will . . . Prabhupāda: I will have to pass, because I cannot go directly to Hawaii. Gurukṛpā: But I am saying that you cannot get off the plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: My plan is . . . is to remove the most of the men from Tokyo now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Because New Year is the cold season, and they can go to Hawaii. And if you stop in Tokyo, there will be only two or three people there. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Better that I stop for one night or one day. Gurukṛpā: Okay. Prabhupāda: Let me know when you have booked it. Devotee: They have daily flights between Hong Kong and Tokyo and Tokyo and Honolulu. Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: So one night. Prabhupāda: So that definitely. I shall let you know this evening what is the position. So? So what is there more? Devotee: One point that comes out here is that this was dated December 22nd. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Devotee: And he says that he is fearing this, that Alfred Ford might be poisoned, and it may be happening right now. So probably the sooner that Guru*-kṛpa Mahārāja goes there . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Also, where is Alfred? Devotee: Even if we write a letter, it may be too much time . . . Prabhupāda: So you can take my letter and see that he is coming . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: Where is Alfred Ford? Devotee: Well the last time he wrote us, he was in Wyoming. He lives in Wyoming, but he was going to meet you there in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: So he may be there, because they are expecting Prabhupāda. Gurukṛpā: Not now. Devotee: No, they are expecting. Gurukṛpā: Not now. Devotee: Really. Gurukṛpā: You . . . I was in Tokyo . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: . . . and when Brahmānanda came, he said that you were . . . did not even coming this to Hawaii or Tokyo, that you were going to Australia. Prabhupāda: No, but that Australia, er . . . no. Australia, I was to go from Hawaii. Gurukṛpā: But he did not say that. Prabhupāda: No. Gurukṛpā: He did not tell me that. Prabhupāda: That was our plan. Oh, yes. Devotee: Yeah, our plan was to go to Australia. Prabhupāda: Directly Australia. So that plan has changed. Gurukṛpā: Yes. So they do not have any idea that you are coming. Devotee: Well, we wrote one letter afterwards to Jayatīrtha saying . . . Prabhupāda said that "I may be coming in two weeks." That was about two weeks ago. Prabhupāda: So arrange like that. What . . . *Devotee: So we'll send a letter with Guru*-kṛpā. So that was the 22nd. Now the next day Brahmānanda Swami came, that was the 23rd that he came. And then he writes . . . all the major background is here, so he just gives his basic . . . Prabhupāda: That is all right. What is the use of? That is the background. Devotee: Yeah, then this is . . . Prabhupāda: He repeats. Devotee: No, no. He gives the . . . after studying the situation and also all the background that was already presented, he gives his . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Devotee: "After studying the situation in Hawaii we have one major concern: that is that this property is currently held in the name of Alfred Ford, and Alfred has told . . . has been told by Sudāmā that Your Divine Grace does not want it placed in the society's name. Furthermore, because Atulānanda dāsa is Alfred's closest friend within the society and now Atulānanda . . ." Gurukṛpā: He told me that, when he came to Japan. He said that you did not want that property. Devotee: Brahmānanda said that? Gurukṛpā: No, Sudāmā said. Prabhupāda: So he can say so many things; why you rascals believe it? That is my point. Gurukṛpā: Well I didn't . . . it wasn't my business. Prabhupāda: Everyone is quoting "Sudāmā said" and why do you pay attention? Gurukṛpā: He was telling . . . Jayatīrtha is the GBC. He also told him. Prabhupāda: Well where is my name in writing? Devotee: Something that important has to be in writing. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is telling, telling, telling, telling. Why one should believe so confidently Sudāmā? Neglecting me and asking me. So what can I do? Sudāmā is speaking my name so many rascal things, but why other rascal will believe him? Eh? Then what can I do? Gurukṛpā: Awesome. Prabhupāda: That . . . what is that he suggest? Devotee: Well, it seems . . . it seems that the property . . . He says it seems that the property should be secured legally before plans for developing it. Prabhupāda: Should be? Why don't you do it? Why don't you meet him? Devotee: Well he next suggests that originally that plan was that every year he would donate one third. Prabhupāda: Ah, ah, that is all right. Devotee: He says, "At the end of the three years the society would own the land outright." Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: He cannot give it all at once because . . . Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? What is the use of writing me? Devotee: Oh, here it is. He says, "Our suggestion, therefore, if it pleases Your Divine Grace, is that Your Divine Grace may issue one letter to Alfred asking him to please carry out his original plans to put the land in the society's name." Prabhupāda: And let him. Devotee: In other words they . . . it seems like they cannot do anything from their end. It is either this boy Atulānanda and Sudāmā influencing him . . . Prabhupāda: But how Alfred will be so foolish that he has decided to see three years, and how Sudāmā will induce him to do it immediately in his name? Devotee: No, I don't think he means immediately, but . . . the same program, only turning it over to Arnie, or the other . . . Atulānanda's name. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: It appears that not that he is going to give it outright. He can't do that, because of tax reasons, but he would do the same thing one third per year to Atulānanda instead of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: If he gives this property, what can I do? Devotee: That's the danger. He . . . Brahmānanda says that "He seems to be very devoted to you, and that we feel that he would definitely respond to your request." If you tell him not to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That I am writing. Devotee: Yeah, so this . . . Prabhupāda: So write that letter very nicely and send it. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what else? *Devotee: Ah, he just reports that Guru*-kṛpā has agreed to take responsibility to finance the construction. *Prabhupāda: So there everyone is ready. Now, Guru*-kṛpā, do you think that he will be able to manage very first-class? How he worked for some time . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: I will go. The thing is this . . . Prabhupāda: What else? Gurukṛpā: The two men that Jayatīrtha has sent, I know one of those, Mahātmā. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: He is a good man. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: He can be president. But after the difficulty is straightened out . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, all right. Gurukṛpā: . . . he would keep things going. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then anything else? Devotee: Well, he just gives a report on Sudāmā and Subala. He says that, "He gave them your message that they should go out and preach like Viṣṇujana and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, and he said that presently they are unwilling to give up their craziness to go and preach as you have requested them to do. Subala is growing a beard on his face and is working as a busboy in a restaurant. And the rest of his time is spent in stringing seashells to sell as necklaces." Prabhupāda: He is growing beard? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Then anything else? *Devotee: Hm, he suggests that Guru*-kṛpā also take responsibility for Hong Kong. *Prabhupāda: That Guru*-kṛpā will take whatever I say. That is not difficult. Devotee: And he also suggests that Citsukānanda could go to Hong Kong. (break) . . . manage there. He says that he could work very nicely with those people. Prabhupāda: Citsukānanda is not sticking to any one place. Gurukṛpā: No, he is very timid. He is very back and forth. He changes his mind . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurukṛpā: . . . every two minutes. He's a good man if he is . . . (break) Devotee: . . . letter. He wrote a letter on the next day. So here he says that he has received a report. Ah, they have been trying to preach to these devotees that left with Subala and Sudāmā. Brahmānanda says he was preaching to them, and he says he is clearing up some of the misconceptions, and already two of them have come back. And they say that, that group, that other group Subala and Sudāmā and the others, are breaking all the principles. He says they're taking drugs and having illicit sex and everything. So Brahmānanda . . . Prabhupāda: That is the disease. They are now sexually desiring. Everyone is desiring, one who cannot control. Then they will break all the regulative principles. Everything will be happening. What can I do? Even they will not stick married life. Gurukṛpā: Hm. Prabhupāda: They are accustomed to break this law. It is very difficult for them. Their fathers, they have done so also—every three, every year thrice divorced, twice. This is the issue . . . (indistinct) . . . what can I do? I have given the formula. They are doing, so long they are doing. Devotee: Apparently, Brahmānanda still, when he wrote these letters, he didn't know that Australia was canceled. Prabhupāda: Oh, now he has to know? Devotee: He must know now, because the letter was sent. Our letter (break) . . . Guru dāsa, nothing really, though, just . . . he says that Jayatīrtha is immediately telling Guru dāsa to go to Vṛndāvana. He should go there without delay. Prabhupāda: Where? Devotee: I don't know where he got that, where. It doesn't say. And he says that Baradrāj is doing very well in LA. He has ten assistants making dolls, and Revatīnananda Swami is there doing college engagements. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles? *Devotee: Ah, I don't think so. I think he is in Laguna Beach. "Bali*-mardana is here in Honolulu, and I will try and contact him and request him to come with me to Australia at the end of the month to join you. He is with his wife. Subala Swami came here to the Sunday feast, but before I could speak with him he left. He looks terrible. I do not know what the Fiji situation is." (aside) Who? Prabhupāda: This Sudama. Ah yes. Subala. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: He fights. Gurukṛpā: Always. Prabhupāda: He will not be able to stay with Sudāmā. They will fight. Devotee: No, actually Sudāmā, when he was here in Māyāpur, he said that he and Subala got in some very extreme fights. Prabhupāda: Then? Gurukṛpā: Subala, he fights with everyone. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Subala fights with everyone. Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone. He cannot remain there. He is most unscrupulous. Devotee: He will have to have his own movement, with only him. (laughs) (break) Gurukṛpā: Also, he is there in Tokyo still, and I suggested to him . . . I was talking yesterday to Tokyo. That you suggested that he should go to Spain and work with Bhagavān. And for . . . I don't know, but for some reason he did not readily take the idea. Prabhupāda: He wants to work independently. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: He doesn't want to be supervised by anyone. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and our whole program is surrender. And these Western boy, they do not want to surrender to anyone. Is it not? Devotee: It is true. Prabhupāda: There is no question of surrender. They have surrendered (laughs) to some extent to me; that is wonderful. Otherwise there is no question of surrender. And our business is surrender. Unless you surrender fully, there is no progress . . . (indistinct) . . . anyway, let us pray to Kṛṣṇa. So any other important details? *Devotee: Well the latest, this is the latest letter from Brahmānanda on the 27th, when he met Bali*-mardana. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: He said, "He came to the temple and we had a talk. His present plans are to get some hotel training for the next few months and then go to Japan." Prabhupāda: Hotel training? Devotee: Hotel training don't understand that. Prabhupāda: What is that? He wants to open a hotel? Gurukṛpā: Not in Japan. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It is too expensive there. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: You must be a millionaire to open anything there, it is so costly. Prabhupāda: Maybe he is millionaire mahārāja. Devotee: Mahārāja. (laughs) Gurukṛpā: Their millions are useless to us. He is not giving them. *Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . (indistinct) . . . I know Bali*-mardana is . . . (indistinct) . . . He has given. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whenever I wanted money, he has given. Never mind wherefrom he has got, but he gives. Actually he helps purchasing land. Devotee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Recently when he came, he gave me 120,000. Devotee: Twenty thousand. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand, yes. I do not know where from. (laughs) That I cannot say. Therefore I say that he is a good soul. He has been polluted by the wife. The same: sex. And his wife is very, very intelligent; she knows how to earn money. Extraordinarily intelligent, and she knows how to earn money. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: If she likes she can independently earn money, many thousands. That also I know. So if that can be corrected, they can be utilized at this stage; there is no question of rejection. They are able to do something. Aiye . (end) Conversation -- January 3, 1975, Bombay Devotee: . . . volume two. That was from Jayatīrtha. This is actually the most complete report. Everything else is additional to this. It is very, uh, all the details. "My Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, Please accept my worthless obeisances at your divine lotus feet. I pray that by your divine mercy I will obtain unquestioning faith in your instructions. It appears from all evidence of the revealed scriptures that it is in this way only my spiritual life will develop and mature. I have been in Hawaii now for one week, and I beg to issue the following report." This is dated December 22nd. "1. The history: I have been aware for some time that Sudāmā was having spiritual difficulties, since in September he had flown to Los Angeles to see me. At that time he was on the verge of blooping due to an illicit homosexual affair with his servant that had been going on for some months. I preached to him and tried to encourage him as much as possible. A few days later . . ." Prabhupāda: Oh, he admitted that, Sudāmā? Devotee: Yeah, Yeah. He also said later that he had admitted that to you. Did he? Prabhupāda: What? He said that . . . Devotee: He had broken a principle. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, like that . . . (indistinct) Devotee: "A few . . ." Prabhupāda: He is conscious of his sinful activities. *Devotee: Yes. "A few days later I flew to Māyāpur to see you in regards to Bali*-mardana, etc., and I had planned to visit Hawaii on the way back to Los Angeles to see how Sudāmā was doing. Unfortunately, Sudāmā was on the U.S. mainland, and when I landed in Hawaii, so I could not talk with him to see if his condition had improved. After returning to Los Angeles I tried to contact him, but he proved to be very elusive. When I finally did get hold of him, he told me that he had just returned from Māyāpur, that everything was all right with him, and that he had admitted his homosexual affair to you and that you had given him permission to work independently of the GBC." Prabhupāda: Just see. Gurukṛpā: He told me that also. Prabhupāda: He, told . . . Gurukṛpā: He came to Japan on his way to Hawaii, and he told me that. Prabhupāda: He . . . he came to Māyāpur for this reason. Gurukṛpā: He said that you had told him that, he only had . . . Prabhupāda: He can say anything. How do you believe it? Gurukṛpā: It wasn't my concern, because I was only in Japan. Prabhupāda: And how others will believe it? He'll say that he has supported my homosex and . . . Devotee: He can say anything. Prabhupāda: Rascal. Rascal. Once one becomes rascal, he becomes more and more and more and more and more. So I have no information whether he admitted or not. He simply tendered that it is not yet finished, prepared, so if you come then I will have to arrange like this. No other place. You were present there? Devotee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: That means he told his plan, to come here, that "I have taken permission." Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: Go on. Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla . . ." Prabhupāda: This is completely false. Rather, I told Brahmānanda that that cannot be. He cannot act independently. There is no question. Devotee: "This concerned me a great deal, and I discussed the matter with Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami, Jagadīśa and Hṛdayānanda dāsa." Prabhupāda: But how this is . . . this is another nonsense. How did you believe him? He came to me, and he reported in his own way, and why you became so foolish that to believe him? Where is my written statement? Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: He, he will tell according to his convenience, but how did he believe it? Without asking me, and without my confirmation, now they began to consult Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. Their first foolishness is "How did he believe him?" Ask him like that, that "How did you ?" You did not ask me whether it is fact; now you are reporting, and you began to consult amongst yourselves. Gurukṛpā: This is in September. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: Yes in . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no intelligence that he said whether it is fact. He should have asked me, that "Sudāmā has told me like this," and whether it is fact. So without asking me they began to consult. What is the meaning? Gurukṛpā: So they consulted. They discussed the matter between themselves, and concluded . . . Prabhupāda: What is the matter? There is no subject matter they consulted. Just see, this kind of intelligent . . . unintelligent class of men we have in our society. How these things are remain . . . (indistinct) . . . they have no intelligence. So now we are discussing on the subject matter whether it is a subject matter to be discussed. They have no sense of . . . how I can manage? He came; he came; he came—spoiling money. What can I do? How did he take the subject matter to be discussed? Where is the subject matter? Ask him: without asking me, how you took it as a subject matter for discussion. You know that he has gone astray, you can say so many lies, and I would support it, homosex. Gurukṛpā: Much of this could have been avoided if he would have . . . Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: This could have been avoided . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: . . . all this stealing and mismanagement, if he would have been stopped in September, when he first announced. Prabhupāda: How can I know? Gurukṛpā: You did not . . . Prabhupāda: The GBC was there. He was GBC! Nobody informed me what is going on. Devotee: Jayatīrtha says he knew. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Jayatīrtha said that he knew he was in difficulty, but he tried to stop and see him, but he was being elusive. He was . . . he stopped at Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: He was elusive to him, and what he said about seeing me, that was correct. Just see! He knew that he is elusive, and still, whatever he said, that "I am sinful. What Swami has said, like this, I do." That is not elusive. That is corrupt. This class of intelligence, how they can manage? They have no common sense, then how can I believe this rascal? I have taken him as elusive. Then, how can I take him that whatever he says is all right? And now, let us consult. Just see! It is very difficult. Where is the subject matter now they began to consult? What do you think? Gurukṛpā: I think he should have informed you. Prabhupāda: At least it should have been confirmed that, yes, he, "Oh, I said like this." Devotee (3): It should have been in writing. Without it in writing . . . Gurukṛpā: Last year when I received one letter from Karāndhara, I came to you and asked you, "Did you write that?" Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Because I was doubting. And it was a fact that he had put in some of his own words there. Prabhupāda: That is what I say, "Consult." Gurukṛpā: Well, they said they consulted, and we concluded that since you were going to come here in December that we would leave things until you arrived. Prabhupāda: So everything else, what did you do when you asked him? Did Sudāmā say like this? Devotee: That was two months . . . that was September, and he said that since you were coming in December then we will leave it. "So we suggested to Sudāmā that Kīrtanānanda Swami be allowed to come to Hawaii to see how things were going and to enliven the devotees, but Sudāmā . . ." *Prabhupāda: Therefore I said to Brahmānanda that I cannot go on this Bombay after, you go. Things are not going nice there. And Brahmānanda was advised . . . I think too that we consulted that Guru*-kṛpā should be in charge. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: You know that? Gurukṛpā: That was . . . Prabhupāda: That was my advice. Then? Devotee: "Sudāmā was adamant that no GBC man should come." Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: "After receiving Brahmānanda Swami's telegram saying that still Sudāmā did not want you to come, I called Sudāmā and demanded an explanation. He claims that actually he did not . . . he did want you to come, but he was short of funds. I promised to help with the funds, and he seemed satisfied. I then telegrammed Your Divine Grace that it was all right to come. Two days later, Sudāmā called me in Portland and told me he was resigning the next day, and that I should come immediately. I also received a call from one of the older brahmacārīs here, saying that the situation was very bad and all the temple leaders had resigned, including Sudāmā and Subala dāsa . . . or Subala Swami, and that they were actively preaching to influence the devotees to move out of the temple and live independently. After hearing this, I immediately came and also invited Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja, who was in Los Angeles at the time, to come. Upon arrival we immediately began to preach very strongly about the necessities of strictly following the instructions of the spiritual master. Those who are very sincere have stayed on, but about a dozen devotees left with Sudāmā. They are operating the restaurant that was given to the society by Alfred Ford after having arranged legally to have the ownership transferred into their names." Prabhupāda: How Alfred was induced to transfer in their names? Devotee: Well, he explains that a little bit later, because I think there is this one boy named Atulānanda, who is Sudāmās closest friend, one of his closest friends. And he is actually the person who is an old friend of Alfred Ford's since childhood. And I think he is the one who has been doing all the negotiations. Prabhupāda: So . . . a man becomes confidential devotee because there is something cheap. How such things can become. Then? *Devotee: "Number 2. What they are preaching: I cannot claim to fully understand what they are preaching, but I will try to explain it as best I can. First of all, they are outspokenly against ISKCON's leadership and are outspokenly against our tactics on saṅkīrtana book distribution as well as what they claim are deplorable conditions in the temples. They agree that the basic principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as taught by you, are the first*-class method, but that it is too much difficult to be followed by people in the West. Therefore they think that since it is too difficult to follow strictly, that they should move out of the temple, get a job, etc. One of them, Jamadagni dāsa, who is their leader, told one of our brahmacāriṇīs , "If you are having a hard time in the temple you should move outside, get a boyfriend, go to the movies, etc." *Prabhupāda: The thing is, now this attitude is . . . Bali*-mardana is also like this. They want relaxation, flexibility. Devotee: Flexibility. Prabhupāda: That means that spiritually fallen, fallen down. Then what else? Devotee: "The most disturbing thing they are saying is that Your Grace is perfect spiritually but not materially; that is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa . . ." Prabhupāda: (laughs) That "perfect spiritually" means the materially rejected. Devotee: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee: "That is to say that you know Kṛṣṇa, but that you may not know how best to engage each person, that you can't see everyone in all places and time, and that therefore so many discrepancies exist within the ISKCON structure; that the structure and its leadership cannot be at all trusted, and that it therefore provides no shelter. Of course, they still claim to be your disciples, but they admit they cannot follow your instructions." Prabhupāda: What kind of disciples? They accept, "You are spiritual master," but "I cannot follow your instructions." That means this GBC's failure. I wanted the GBC. They are themselves fallen, victim. Not very well carried out. This GBC was meant for vigilance, that every, everything is going on nicely according to the instruction. They themselves . . . Karāndhara? Then? Devotee: "Sudāmā, for example, is planning on starting a dance troupe. When asked what he would do if Your Divine Grace asked him to do something else instead, he said: "I would have to do it anyway." In summary, it seems to me at least that they are minimizing the value of the spiritual master's instructions and at the same time, when we attack them on that same point, they deny it and claim rather that we're just fanatics, impersonal, etc. Actually we have tried to be nice to them, but at the same time we have tried to keep the philosophical points clear so that the devotees will not become bewildered." Prabhupāda: Hm. Then? *Devotee: "Number 3. The land situation: Of course we are living on the land, and the Deities are installed. We have been making your quarters ready, and I hope that you will be pleased with them. The land has been completely paid off by Alfred Ford, and he will also pay all property taxes. He had offered to lease us the land for a dollar per year and at the same time to turn over one*-third ownership yearly to ISKCON until it was completely in our name." Prabhupāda: Let it . . . let it be done in writing. Devotee: Yes, he, he . . . I'll just go on reading. He requests that, "He had to do this rather than give it outright for tax reasons. The problem is that Alfred Ford's main contact with ISKCON has been through Atulānanda dāsa, Alfred's lifetime friend. But now Atulānanda has gone with Sudāmā, and Sudāmā has told me that you do not want the property in ISKCON's name." Prabhupāda: Just see. Whatever he says, it is all right. Then what, who's next? Devotee: Well, he is . . . "Sudāmā also reports that Alfred is not pleased with ISKCON, does not trust ISKCON, etc. Also on several occasions they have made veiled threats, like "We can have you all thrown off the property in a minute." " Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: They are saying, Sudāmā and his men are saying to the devotees, "We can have you all thrown off this property in a minute." Because they have the connection with Alfred Ford. Prabhupāda: Ha. So he . . . he is creating some impression of ISKCON. That was his policy, so that the property can be given in his name as he has taken the restaurant. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That was his plan, therefore he did not like that I should go there. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That I understand. Or any GBC go there. That is the whole plan. Devotee: He goes on to say that, "At any rate it seems difficult to put too much into developing the property unless we have some assurance one way or another that Alfred Ford will not ask us to leave. The land is the absolute manifestation of paradise, so it would be very nice if it could be kept." Prabhupāda: So, write one letter to Alfred that this is the position. Or? Shall I write to him or not? Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then it will only be Sudāmā's speaking with him. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: He may . . . he may get them to change it over, very easily. Prabhupāda: Huh? He is doing that? Gurukṛpā: If you don't write to him, then Sudāmā will be the only one that will influence him. Prabhupāda: You write to him, that "Sudāmā has left our camp; he has nothing to do with ISKCON. He has nothing to be recognized. He has his own plan. So under the circumstances I want to see you." What shall I write? He, he may poisioned? Devotee: It looks as if they have already poisoned him some, because according to Sudāmā he doesn't trust ISKCON. He doesn't . . . he is not pleased with ISKCON. Prabhupāda: So. Devotee: But I think that he is definitely submissive to yourself. Prabhupāda: So I can . . . (indistinct) Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: This sex, this illicit sex, how is killing him. Illicit sex is so dangerous. He's a good boy. Similarly, Gaurasundara is killed by this illicit sex. Everyone will be killed with the illicit sex. That is the difficulty—falldown. What can I do? I have already given instruction. If they do not follow, they fall down. That is sure. So dangerous. And in our society it is very easy to have affair, so many girls are there. I can say "Don't do this," but if you do, what can I do? So, what you have written, Alfred? Devotee: "Sudāmā has left our camp. He has his own plans, so under the circumstances . . ." Prabhupāda: Ahah, "He has his own camp, and he has violated our rules and regulations and fallen down. Under the circumstances don't be influenced by him, unless you see me." Is that all right? Gurukṛpā: Unless he sees you? Prabhupāda: Yes. So "I am coming very soon in Hawaii. I am very much busy in Bombay for some business" . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone is this. Karāndhara has done some . . . I trusted so much. How you can . . .? This is the poison, illicit sex, and this poison will kill everything. This is the poison. And I cannot understand whether I shall be able to save my disciples from this poison. This is the poison. They do not take it seriously, but in the beginning I said, "No illicit sex." If you want . . . (indistinct) . . . these four principles, if they are not strictly followed, then he's victimized forever—today or tomorrow. He should take little time, of his time, to save himself. Artificially, that will not save him; *he will fall down. Kṛṣṇa can excuse for some time, but it is not . . . (indistinct) . . . Api cet su*-durācāro ( BG 9.30). If unconsciously, or if you have some accidentally falldown, that is excused. But purposefully—it is all rascaldom. Bali-mardana fell. Karāndhara fell. Sudāmā fell. And gradually they are falling down. What can I do? I say that you shall remain fixed up in this way, but if you do not accept it, then how can I help you? If I say that "Don't dry your knife on your neck," and if you do it, so how can I save you? Gurukṛpā: I think that there is no saṅkīrtana . Prabhupāda: Huh? Gurukṛpā: They get too much business and no saṅkīrtana , then they forget. Prabhupāda: Well, why too much business? Who . . . (indistinct) . . . business? Gurukṛpā: That is the case of all the devotees that have fallen. They have stopped doing saṅkīrtana and just strictly business. And then they forget. I know myself, if I don't do some saṅkīrtana every day, I usually become agitated. But if I can do two . . . Prabhupāda: That is also advised. But if you do not do it, then sixteen rounds first be done. This is not saṅkīrtana ? Gurukṛpā: Myself, I need more than . . . Prabhupāda: More than anyone. This is the . . . every letter, every time it is stressed that "You must finish sixteen rounds." Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is real saṅkīrtana —at least sixteen rounds. But if you do not follow, then how can you be saved? Saved without saṅkīrtana —for this is stressed in every letter. Gurukṛpā: Yes, you stress, but they do not do. Prabhupāda: Then if they do not follow the instruction of the spiritual master, then how you can be saved? You are fallen; I say "Catch this rope. I'll take you, take you out." But if you do not catch? Then? What is next? Devotee: Well, the next report is the restaurant. "The restaurant was purchased with a $12,000 donation from Alfred Ford and was fixed up with a $2000 loan from Peter Burwash, a local Life Member. Last month, Sudāmā arranged legally to have the restaurant transferred into the joint ownership of Sudāmā, Taruṇa Kānti, Atulānanda and Peter Burwash. Sudāmās claim was that Alfred Ford had meant the $12,000 as a loan and not as a donation, and that he did not trust that ISKCON would ever pay it back, but apparently that he did trust that Sudāmā would pay it back. Sudāmā also managed to transfer ownership of several of the temple vehicles to his name, and in addition he took with him . . . " Prabhupāda: Why not take criminal charges against him? Prosecute him. So that would be another trouble. That is also not advisable, eh? Gurukṛpā: Very difficult. Prabhupāda: That is difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . that every member is trustworthy for money, everything, and if you . . . Devotee: He says . . . Prabhupāda: Pālikā, she has not come? Pālikā? Gurukṛpā: She is here. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: She is here. Prabhupāda: Where? I called. (rings a bell) So, you have begun cooking? Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: So, I wanted ordinary rice . . . (indistinct) . . . khichuri . Pālikā: Yes. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so what, what is the use of hearing? (aside) I changed my mind, next time. He has plan. What is the plan? Then? You read? Have you read the whole thing? Devotee: No, there is a little bit more. "He says that he took the large bus which was being used for traveling saṅkīrtana . He plans to sell this bus, which is worth about $6000 or $7000, and invest the proceeds in getting his thing together. He claims that the bus was purchased with a personal donation from Alfred Ford. But I have been unable to either prove or disprove that statement. But at any rate it seems as that they're using Alfred Ford's devotion to you for their own personal benefit." Prabhupāda: Therefore it must go. A letter must go immediately. *Devotee: We will send a letter today. "5. The temple financial situation: Sudāmā has left us about $30,000 in debt, and with no substantial assets. We have one broken*-down 1960 Volkswagen, one broken-down truck, and not a penny in the bank. The saṅkīrtana party was practically nonexistent. Daily collections were under $50, and only two or three men were going out for a couple of hours per day. They had been preaching to the book distributors that what they were doing was . . ." Prabhupāda: One thing is, that why they are reporting? Why . . . what steps they have taken? The GBC's main policy, simply reporting to me vague reports? Gurukṛpā: They suggested that I should go and pay the bill. Prabhupāda: Yes, you should go immediately. We know the situation, and do if, if proper, and possible take criminal . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: Yeah, but the $30,000, that money, he expects me to collect that money and pay that, which is your money. Because I have the money for Māyāpur. Instead of giving to Māyāpur, we pay these bills. Devotee: So this, this is the basic report, but then these other letters go into the . . . see, this is Jayatīrtha before he has even seen Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: This is before Brahmānanda has arrived. Prabhupāda: So what I shall do by hearing the report? GBC allow them to do whatever they like. No restriction; there is no inspection. There is only . . . What is the use of GBC? He was doing all these things planned, and the GBC could not understand? So what can I do? . . . (indistinct) . . . huh? So go and . . . He is such a traitorous boy, no respect. One traitor is . . . Gaurasundara was not so much traitor. He is a gross traitorous. Gaurasundara, he took money, he sent some money to our . . . (indistinct) . . . but he paid everything. He has taken all the money from Gaurasundara; he is a great traitorous. So what you think, what is to be done now? Gurukṛpā: Well, the only thing to do is that if Alfred Ford wants the land back, then we will have to find another place and simply pick up from where we left off. Prabhupāda: No. Alfred, unless he is poisoned, he is not bewildered. Gurukṛpā: No, but if he doesn't want it, we can remain there . . . Prabhupāda: Ha. Gurukṛpā: . . . and have the plans for the temple, and if he does want it then we have to move. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: But in the meantime, the devotees . . . Prabhupāda: That means he may not be poisoned. So I'll have to go. In the meantime, you go. Where . . . when is your ultimate time? Gurukṛpā: I am leaving tomorrow at 6 o'clock. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurukṛpā: In the morning. Prabhupāda: What other points? *Devotee: Well that was just about it, other than the financial situation is very bad, and he says the only place they can do book distribution there is on Waikiki Beach. And there is already about half a dozen semi*-blooped devotees doing saṅkīrtana there to maintain themselves, including Bali-mardana's wife. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Well, but they say that the saṅkīrtana there is very difficult. The only place that they can do it is Waikiki Beach. Gurukṛpā: I think that is a fact. Prabhupāda: Huh. Gurukṛpā: It is not a good place for collecting, at all. It is very . . . the rich people, they have shopping places, but the police are very, very . . . Because they are rich, and this is the only place, and that is not so good. Devotee: But he says anyway . . . Gurukṛpā: Sudāmā used to have his . . . some men in America sending him money. They would stay on the mainland and do saṅkīrtana and sent the money back to Hawaii. He was doing that. Devotee: But he seems to think that . . . he says that, "At any rate I am confident that we will be able to maintain the temple and extinguish the debt." Gurukṛpā: How is that? Devotee: I don't know. Gurukṛpā: $30,000? Devotee: It doesn't make sense. Prabhupāda: Then, what else? *Devotee: So that . . . he says that . . . number 6 is new management. "I have brought one of the best men in my zone here to help manage affairs. His name is Ānandavardhana dāsa adhikārī . He is intelligent, regulated and sincere and has good experience in management of our Denver temple. Denver has been by far the best*-managed temple in the western zone, as I have several times reported to you, and Ānandavardhana , as the number-two man there, was very instrumental in bringing it up to that standard. In addition, I am bringing Mahātmā dāsa from Vancouver, former president, to act as number-two man. He is also very enthusiastic and intelligent and is a very good book distributor. *I feel confident that between the two of them the management of this temple will go on well. I know from Bhagavān that Your Divine Grace has suggested that perhaps Guru*-kṛpā Swami could come here. My personal feeling is that it might be valuable for him to come here for some time and preach, but that they would probably not want to stay on permanently to maintain the center. Also, saṅkīrtana could never be as lucrative as Tokyo, and this important source of revenue for the Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust would be stopped. Of course, if Your Divine Grace decides that they should definitely come, I will work with them very happily. I personally have great respect for them, and I feel them to be very well qualified." Prabhupāda: That is all right . . . (indistinct) . . . so now, what you think we should do? Gurukṛpā: We can go . . . Prabhupāda: And help them for some time. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then? Gurukṛpā: But the quest . . . quest . . . Prabhupāda: You know that the collection is not possible there. Gurukṛpā: Yes, not much. Prabhupāda: So let them do that; you can go to South America. *Gurukṛpā: So Hṛdayānanda should be written a letter and asked to co*-operate. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what else? *Devotee: "Number 7 is Danger to the Society. I'm a little bit worried about this turn of events, because it appears to my mundane vision that it may pre*-stage an actual philosophical division amongst your disciples. In reading your Caitanya-caritāmṛta Chapter Twelve in reference to the followers of Advaita Ācārya and how some followers gradually developed their own opinion of devotional service, which was different from the instructions of their guru , but still claim to be followers, I think that I have perceived some parallels in the present situation. At the same time it appears that things are ripe for such a split, especially after so many signs of corruption amongst the society's leaders have recently come to light, thus providing a good excuse for those who want to work outside the authority structure of the society to do so. I am actually fearful that this anti-ISKCON party feeling may spread widely in the society, although I realize that the best defense to this would be to send . . ." Prabhupāda: We simply counteract if we remain sincere and follow the spiritual master, nobody can harm you. But if you are not so strong, then there will be trouble. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: But if you stick to your position, as I have advised, then you will be successful. *Gurukṛpā: This was like Siddha*-svarūpa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: It just kind of fell apart after a while. Prabhupāda: He could not be able to do. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara . . . they are all localized. That is not . . . if we stick to our principles, then it will be all right. Devotee: Hm. Then he has one request at the end. "Your Divine Grace has for several years spent most of the time in India. At the same time, so much nonsense has happened in the society. So many big leaders have fallen down, etc. Of course, at the same time so many aspects of our movement have progressed nicely. I think, however, that your presence in the West will counteract all of this bad influence. I sincerely think, therefore, that if you can come and stay in Hawaii for a good part of the next year, that all of the poison in the society will be removed." Prabhupāda: So I'm going. I'm going. You go. I shall remain in South America and you shall do the needful, that is all. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: I'm going. So I am simply waiting. I have arranged for visiting the governor for this purpose. But that is also a big clique. The secretaries, they are not arranging the meeting. This is the position everywhere. Then? Devotee: He says that if you come . . . Prabhupāda: That is, that is the remedy. So I shall have to go to Hawaii immediately, as soon as possible. If you go, I will try to go. Gurukṛpā: Should I . . . Prabhupāda: Simply I'm waiting for this governor's meeting. As soon as it is done, I shall go. Gurukṛpā: Should I go to Tokyo and wait for you there, and then go with you to Hawaii, or should I go all the way to Hawaii? There are some things that I have to settle up in Tokyo. Prabhupāda: More settle around you, then go. Gurukṛpā: I should wait for you in Tokyo? Prabhupāda: That I shall let you know this evening. Gurukṛpā: Okay. Or you can just pass Tokyo up? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpā: Because I will . . . Prabhupāda: I will have to pass, because I cannot go directly to Hawaii. Gurukṛpā: But I am saying that you cannot get off the plane. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: My plan is . . . is to remove the most of the men from Tokyo now. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Because New Year is the cold season, and they can go to Hawaii. And if you stop in Tokyo, there will be only two or three people there. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Better that I stop for one night or one day. Gurukṛpā: Okay. Prabhupāda: Let me know when you have booked it. Devotee: They have daily flights between Hong Kong and Tokyo and Tokyo and Honolulu. Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: So one night. Prabhupāda: So that definitely. I shall let you know this evening what is the position. So? So what is there more? Devotee: One point that comes out here is that this was dated December 22nd. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Devotee: And he says that he is fearing this, that Alfred Ford might be poisoned, and it may be happening right now. So probably the sooner that Guru*-kṛpa Mahārāja goes there . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Also, where is Alfred? Devotee: Even if we write a letter, it may be too much time . . . Prabhupāda: So you can take my letter and see that he is coming . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: Where is Alfred Ford? Devotee: Well the last time he wrote us, he was in Wyoming. He lives in Wyoming, but he was going to meet you there in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: So he may be there, because they are expecting Prabhupāda. Gurukṛpā: Not now. Devotee: No, they are expecting. Gurukṛpā: Not now. Devotee: Really. Gurukṛpā: You . . . I was in Tokyo . . . Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: . . . and when Brahmānanda came, he said that you were . . . did not even coming this to Hawaii or Tokyo, that you were going to Australia. Prabhupāda: No, but that Australia, er . . . no. Australia, I was to go from Hawaii. Gurukṛpā: But he did not say that. Prabhupāda: No. Gurukṛpā: He did not tell me that. Prabhupāda: That was our plan. Oh, yes. Devotee: Yeah, our plan was to go to Australia. Prabhupāda: Directly Australia. So that plan has changed. Gurukṛpā: Yes. So they do not have any idea that you are coming. Devotee: Well, we wrote one letter afterwards to Jayatīrtha saying . . . Prabhupāda said that "I may be coming in two weeks." That was about two weeks ago. Prabhupāda: So arrange like that. What . . . *Devotee: So we'll send a letter with Guru*-kṛpā. So that was the 22nd. Now the next day Brahmānanda Swami came, that was the 23rd that he came. And then he writes . . . all the major background is here, so he just gives his basic . . . Prabhupāda: That is all right. What is the use of? That is the background. Devotee: Yeah, then this is . . . Prabhupāda: He repeats. Devotee: No, no. He gives the . . . after studying the situation and also all the background that was already presented, he gives his . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Devotee: "After studying the situation in Hawaii we have one major concern: that is that this property is currently held in the name of Alfred Ford, and Alfred has told . . . has been told by Sudāmā that Your Divine Grace does not want it placed in the society's name. Furthermore, because Atulānanda dāsa is Alfred's closest friend within the society and now Atulānanda . . ." Gurukṛpā: He told me that, when he came to Japan. He said that you did not want that property. Devotee: Brahmānanda said that? Gurukṛpā: No, Sudāmā said. Prabhupāda: So he can say so many things; why you rascals believe it? That is my point. Gurukṛpā: Well I didn't . . . it wasn't my business. Prabhupāda: Everyone is quoting "Sudāmā said" and why do you pay attention? Gurukṛpā: He was telling . . . Jayatīrtha is the GBC. He also told him. Prabhupāda: Well where is my name in writing? Devotee: Something that important has to be in writing. Prabhupāda: Just see, he is telling, telling, telling, telling. Why one should believe so confidently Sudāmā? Neglecting me and asking me. So what can I do? Sudāmā is speaking my name so many rascal things, but why other rascal will believe him? Eh? Then what can I do? Gurukṛpā: Awesome. Prabhupāda: That . . . what is that he suggest? Devotee: Well, it seems . . . it seems that the property . . . He says it seems that the property should be secured legally before plans for developing it. Prabhupāda: Should be? Why don't you do it? Why don't you meet him? Devotee: Well he next suggests that originally that plan was that every year he would donate one third. Prabhupāda: Ah, ah, that is all right. Devotee: He says, "At the end of the three years the society would own the land outright." Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: He cannot give it all at once because . . . Prabhupāda: So why don't you do it? What is the use of writing me? Devotee: Oh, here it is. He says, "Our suggestion, therefore, if it pleases Your Divine Grace, is that Your Divine Grace may issue one letter to Alfred asking him to please carry out his original plans to put the land in the society's name." Prabhupāda: And let him. Devotee: In other words they . . . it seems like they cannot do anything from their end. It is either this boy Atulānanda and Sudāmā influencing him . . . Prabhupāda: But how Alfred will be so foolish that he has decided to see three years, and how Sudāmā will induce him to do it immediately in his name? Devotee: No, I don't think he means immediately, but . . . the same program, only turning it over to Arnie, or the other . . . Atulānanda's name. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: It appears that not that he is going to give it outright. He can't do that, because of tax reasons, but he would do the same thing one third per year to Atulānanda instead of ISKCON. Prabhupāda: If he gives this property, what can I do? Devotee: That's the danger. He . . . Brahmānanda says that "He seems to be very devoted to you, and that we feel that he would definitely respond to your request." If you tell him not to . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. That I am writing. Devotee: Yeah, so this . . . Prabhupāda: So write that letter very nicely and send it. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: And what else? *Devotee: Ah, he just reports that Guru*-kṛpā has agreed to take responsibility to finance the construction. *Prabhupāda: So there everyone is ready. Now, Guru*-kṛpā, do you think that he will be able to manage very first-class? How he worked for some time . . . (indistinct) Gurukṛpā: I will go. The thing is this . . . Prabhupāda: What else? Gurukṛpā: The two men that Jayatīrtha has sent, I know one of those, Mahātmā. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: He is a good man. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: He can be president. But after the difficulty is straightened out . . . Prabhupāda: Ah, all right. Gurukṛpā: . . . he would keep things going. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then anything else? Devotee: Well, he just gives a report on Sudāmā and Subala. He says that, "He gave them your message that they should go out and preach like Viṣṇujana and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, and he said that presently they are unwilling to give up their craziness to go and preach as you have requested them to do. Subala is growing a beard on his face and is working as a busboy in a restaurant. And the rest of his time is spent in stringing seashells to sell as necklaces." Prabhupāda: He is growing beard? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Then anything else? *Devotee: Hm, he suggests that Guru*-kṛpā also take responsibility for Hong Kong. *Prabhupāda: That Guru*-kṛpā will take whatever I say. That is not difficult. Devotee: And he also suggests that Citsukānanda could go to Hong Kong. (break) . . . manage there. He says that he could work very nicely with those people. Prabhupāda: Citsukānanda is not sticking to any one place. Gurukṛpā: No, he is very timid. He is very back and forth. He changes his mind . . . Prabhupāda: That's all right. Gurukṛpā: . . . every two minutes. He's a good man if he is . . . (break) Devotee: . . . letter. He wrote a letter on the next day. So here he says that he has received a report. Ah, they have been trying to preach to these devotees that left with Subala and Sudāmā. Brahmānanda says he was preaching to them, and he says he is clearing up some of the misconceptions, and already two of them have come back. And they say that, that group, that other group Subala and Sudāmā and the others, are breaking all the principles. He says they're taking drugs and having illicit sex and everything. So Brahmānanda . . . Prabhupāda: That is the disease. They are now sexually desiring. Everyone is desiring, one who cannot control. Then they will break all the regulative principles. Everything will be happening. What can I do? Even they will not stick married life. Gurukṛpā: Hm. Prabhupāda: They are accustomed to break this law. It is very difficult for them. Their fathers, they have done so also—every three, every year thrice divorced, twice. This is the issue . . . (indistinct) . . . what can I do? I have given the formula. They are doing, so long they are doing. Devotee: Apparently, Brahmānanda still, when he wrote these letters, he didn't know that Australia was canceled. Prabhupāda: Oh, now he has to know? Devotee: He must know now, because the letter was sent. Our letter (break) . . . Guru dāsa, nothing really, though, just . . . he says that Jayatīrtha is immediately telling Guru dāsa to go to Vṛndāvana. He should go there without delay. Prabhupāda: Where? Devotee: I don't know where he got that, where. It doesn't say. And he says that Baradrāj is doing very well in LA. He has ten assistants making dolls, and Revatīnananda Swami is there doing college engagements. Prabhupāda: Los Angeles? *Devotee: Ah, I don't think so. I think he is in Laguna Beach. "Bali*-mardana is here in Honolulu, and I will try and contact him and request him to come with me to Australia at the end of the month to join you. He is with his wife. Subala Swami came here to the Sunday feast, but before I could speak with him he left. He looks terrible. I do not know what the Fiji situation is." (aside) Who? Prabhupāda: This Sudama. Ah yes. Subala. Devotee: Hm. Prabhupāda: He fights. Gurukṛpā: Always. Prabhupāda: He will not be able to stay with Sudāmā. They will fight. Devotee: No, actually Sudāmā, when he was here in Māyāpur, he said that he and Subala got in some very extreme fights. Prabhupāda: Then? Gurukṛpā: Subala, he fights with everyone. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: Subala fights with everyone. Prabhupāda: Ah, everyone. He cannot remain there. He is most unscrupulous. Devotee: He will have to have his own movement, with only him. (laughs) (break) Gurukṛpā: Also, he is there in Tokyo still, and I suggested to him . . . I was talking yesterday to Tokyo. That you suggested that he should go to Spain and work with Bhagavān. And for . . . I don't know, but for some reason he did not readily take the idea. Prabhupāda: He wants to work independently. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: He doesn't want to be supervised by anyone. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . and our whole program is surrender. And these Western boy, they do not want to surrender to anyone. Is it not? Devotee: It is true. Prabhupāda: There is no question of surrender. They have surrendered (laughs) to some extent to me; that is wonderful. Otherwise there is no question of surrender. And our business is surrender. Unless you surrender fully, there is no progress . . . (indistinct) . . . anyway, let us pray to Kṛṣṇa. So any other important details? *Devotee: Well the latest, this is the latest letter from Brahmānanda on the 27th, when he met Bali*-mardana. Prabhupāda: Ah. Devotee: He said, "He came to the temple and we had a talk. His present plans are to get some hotel training for the next few months and then go to Japan." Prabhupāda: Hotel training? Devotee: Hotel training don't understand that. Prabhupāda: What is that? He wants to open a hotel? Gurukṛpā: Not in Japan. Prabhupāda: Eh? Gurukṛpā: It is too expensive there. Prabhupāda: Ah. Gurukṛpā: You must be a millionaire to open anything there, it is so costly. Prabhupāda: Maybe he is millionaire mahārāja. Devotee: Mahārāja. (laughs) Gurukṛpā: Their millions are useless to us. He is not giving them. *Prabhupāda: No, he is . . . (indistinct) . . . I know Bali*-mardana is . . . (indistinct) . . . He has given. Gurukṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Whenever I wanted money, he has given. Never mind wherefrom he has got, but he gives. Actually he helps purchasing land. Devotee: Yes, I know. Prabhupāda: Recently when he came, he gave me 120,000. Devotee: Twenty thousand. Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand, yes. I do not know where from. (laughs) That I cannot say. Therefore I say that he is a good soul. He has been polluted by the wife. The same: sex. And his wife is very, very intelligent; she knows how to earn money. Extraordinarily intelligent, and she knows how to earn money. Devotee: Hmm. Prabhupāda: If she likes she can independently earn money, many thousands. That also I know. So if that can be corrected, they can be utilized at this stage; there is no question of rejection. They are able to do something. Aiye . (end) Conversation with Children -- January 26, 1975, Hong Kong Prabhupāda: Try to answer, children? Do you know what is Kṛṣṇa? Who can say? You say something about Kṛṣṇa? Girl: The Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So, what does He do? Tell something about Kṛṣṇa. You have read Kṛṣṇa book? Huh? Boy: He was given many names. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Many names everyone has got. But what is the difference between your many names and Kṛṣṇa's many names? Just like your father calls you by some name and mother calls you by some name; friends calls you. So you have got also many names. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has also many names. But what is the between . . . what is the difference between your name and Kṛṣṇa's name? Can anyone say? Girl: Each of Kṛṣṇa's names has a meaning behind it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: Each of Kṛṣṇa's names has a meaning behind it. Prabhupāda: Every name has got some meaning. That is not . . . the difference is that Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name, the same thing. Just like if you want water, if you simply say, "water, water, water," that substance, water, is not there. Try to understand this. The water, liquid substance, that is different from the name water. Anything you take. Just like here is rose. So if you simply chant, "rose, rose, rose," there is no rose. Rose is different from the name rose. Similarly, in the material world anything you take, the name is different from the substance, whereas in case of Kṛṣṇa, the name Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately Kṛṣṇa is on your tongue. He is dancing on your tongue. This is the difference. *Therefore, immediately we chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa means immediately we get in contact with Kṛṣṇa or in association. Just like we are sitting together. Similarly, as soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately Kṛṣṇa is with you. Immediately. Kṛṣṇa is with you always. Still, particularly, tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ (Padma Purāna). And that is a fact. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , that means you directly associate with Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Spirit, para-brahma , then, although we have got this material body, still, by association with Kṛṣṇa we become spiritualized. Just like you take one iron rod and put into the fire, the rod becomes warm. At last the rod becomes red hot. So when the iron is red hot, you put in touch with anything else, it will burn. It is no more iron rod. Although it is iron rod, but because it was in touch with fire, now it has attained the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always remain in touch with Kṛṣṇa by chanting His holy name, then you become spiritualized. *Therefore, chanting of His holy name is very important. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 3). Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises that you should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā - mantra always, twenty*-four hours; *then you will remain in touch with Kṛṣṇa, just like the iron rod in touch with the fire. And gradually, as the iron rod turns to be fire, similarly, constantly in touch with Kṛṣṇa means you become Kṛṣṇa*-ized, the same quality. That is wanted. We are now covered by material things. Inside we are there. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Inside we are spirit soul. Outside . . . just like inside your coat you are there, but the coat is outside. When the coat and shirt is taken away, then you are clothed in your original body. Similarly, as soon as these material coverings are taken away, then we are spirit soul. *We have to attain to that stage. That is perfection of human life: to get out of this material covering. To get out of this material covering means you get your original spiritual body and you become eternal, blissful, ānanda*-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). We are seeking after ānanda , everyone. We are dressing, we are talking, we are going here and there. The real purpose is how to become happy. That happiness, ānanda , is being hampered on account of this material covering. That we do not understand in this stage. In this stage also . . . there are three stages: goodness, passion and ignorance. In the ignorance stage, it is almost like dull matter or animals. In the passion stage, there is both propensity for enjoyment. And in the goodness stage, we can get some glimpse of light of our spiritual existence. Therefore, we have to come to the platform of goodness to understand the spiritual values of our life. *This platform of goodness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That is qualified brahminical stage. Not a brāhmaṇa born in the family and doing all nonsense. No, not like that. A quality brāhmaṇa . Quality brāhmaṇa means one who is truthful, one who is self-controlled, one who has controlled his mind and senses, one who is very tolerant, one who is very simple, no duplicity, one who is very, very advanced in knowledge. And not only simply one knows, but the things are practically behaved. Just like I may know, you may know, a brāhmaṇa means truthful. It is not simply to know truthful but actually to become truthful. That is called vijñānaṁ . As some of you who are studying science, the scientific knowledge means you should know theoretically what is water—a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. But you must know how to prepare, mixing the two chemicals, hydrogen, oxygen. That is called vijñāna. Jñāna means simply theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practically to know, experimental knowledge. *So these are the qualification of brāhmaṇa : jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma*-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). So when you are on this platform, pure light, full of knowledge, then you will be able to understand what is God, what is Brahman. And this will be very easily done if you simply hear the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). You become purified. In this way, as soon as you become purified—even not fully purified, say fifty percent purified—then you are immediately situated on the modes of goodness. That purification can be possible, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā , by associating with devotees and understanding the subject matter stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are having so many centers all over the world just to give chance to the people to understand the subject matter of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So in this way one becomes purified and happy. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ (SB 1.2.20). This bhagavad-bhakti - yoga , by practicing bhagavad-bhakti - yoga , one becomes prasanna-mana , very happy mood. Then he will be able to understand, bhagavat-tattva-vijñānaṁ mukta-saṅgasya jāyate (SB 1.2.20). So from the very beginning of your life, as Prahlāda Mahārāja did, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). He was five years old, and from the beginning of his life he was Kṛṣṇa conscious, and he used to teach Kṛṣṇa consciousness among his class friends. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in the school, he would preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness amongst the small children. So try to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Follow the footprints of great personalities like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja. They were child; *still they become topmost devotees. There are many others. The Kumāras, they were very topmost devotees. So of course it requires little endeavor. Prahlāda Mahārāja's father was a demon, number*-one atheist. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja had the chance to hear Nārada Muni while he was within the womb of his mother. Nārada Muni was instructing his mother, but Prahlāda Mahārāja within the womb of his mother heard everything from Nārada Muni. So before coming out of the womb of mother he understood the Bhāgavata philosophy. So from the very beginning of his life he was bhāgavata. Bhāgavata means devotee. *So we can follow Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja. Of course, it requires the help of the parents. Otherwise, if we practice bhāgavata - dharma or bhakti*-yogam from the very beginning of our life, it is successful life. Fortunately, we had the good opportunity of learning bhāgavata - dharma from our very childhood. My father was a devotee, and he trained us. So it is the duty of all parents to train the children in the bhāgavata - dharma . Then life is successful. Otherwise life is not successful. There is every chance of falling down. Falling down means life is meant for elevation to the platform of spiritual life. And if we do not do that, then we fall down to the animal life. There are many species of life. You have seen in your front. One may become cats and dogs also. There is a great science, but people have no knowledge, neither in the school, colleges these things are taught. Neither do they know, the so-called teachers and educated persons. They do not know. So as far as possible, try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā - mantra whenever you have got time. I think you have got enough time. That is my request. That we are preaching all over the world. Thank you very much. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation with Children -- January 26, 1975, Hong Kong Prabhupāda: Try to answer, children? Do you know what is Kṛṣṇa? Who can say? You say something about Kṛṣṇa? Girl: The Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So, what does He do? Tell something about Kṛṣṇa. You have read Kṛṣṇa book? Huh? Boy: He was given many names. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Many names everyone has got. But what is the difference between your many names and Kṛṣṇa's many names? Just like your father calls you by some name and mother calls you by some name; friends calls you. So you have got also many names. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa has also many names. But what is the between . . . what is the difference between your name and Kṛṣṇa's name? Can anyone say? Girl: Each of Kṛṣṇa's names has a meaning behind it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: Each of Kṛṣṇa's names has a meaning behind it. Prabhupāda: Every name has got some meaning. That is not . . . the difference is that Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name, the same thing. Just like if you want water, if you simply say, "water, water, water," that substance, water, is not there. Try to understand this. The water, liquid substance, that is different from the name water. Anything you take. Just like here is rose. So if you simply chant, "rose, rose, rose," there is no rose. Rose is different from the name rose. Similarly, in the material world anything you take, the name is different from the substance, whereas in case of Kṛṣṇa, the name Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa, the same thing. Just like we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa—that means immediately Kṛṣṇa is on your tongue. He is dancing on your tongue. This is the difference. *Therefore, immediately we chant the holy name of Kṛṣṇa means immediately we get in contact with Kṛṣṇa or in association. Just like we are sitting together. Similarly, as soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately Kṛṣṇa is with you. Immediately. Kṛṣṇa is with you always. Still, particularly, tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad*-bhaktāḥ (Padma Purāna). And that is a fact. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , that means you directly associate with Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Spirit, para-brahma , then, although we have got this material body, still, by association with Kṛṣṇa we become spiritualized. Just like you take one iron rod and put into the fire, the rod becomes warm. At last the rod becomes red hot. So when the iron is red hot, you put in touch with anything else, it will burn. It is no more iron rod. Although it is iron rod, but because it was in touch with fire, now it has attained the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always remain in touch with Kṛṣṇa by chanting His holy name, then you become spiritualized. *Therefore, chanting of His holy name is very important. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (Śikṣāṣṭaka 3). Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises that you should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā - mantra always, twenty*-four hours; *then you will remain in touch with Kṛṣṇa, just like the iron rod in touch with the fire. And gradually, as the iron rod turns to be fire, similarly, constantly in touch with Kṛṣṇa means you become Kṛṣṇa*-ized, the same quality. That is wanted. We are now covered by material things. Inside we are there. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe ( BG 2.13). Inside we are spirit soul. Outside . . . just like inside your coat you are there, but the coat is outside. When the coat and shirt is taken away, then you are clothed in your original body. Similarly, as soon as these material coverings are taken away, then we are spirit soul. *We have to attain to that stage. That is perfection of human life: to get out of this material covering. To get out of this material covering means you get your original spiritual body and you become eternal, blissful, ānanda*-mayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). We are seeking after ānanda , everyone. We are dressing, we are talking, we are going here and there. The real purpose is how to become happy. That happiness, ānanda , is being hampered on account of this material covering. That we do not understand in this stage. In this stage also . . . there are three stages: goodness, passion and ignorance. In the ignorance stage, it is almost like dull matter or animals. In the passion stage, there is both propensity for enjoyment. And in the goodness stage, we can get some glimpse of light of our spiritual existence. Therefore, we have to come to the platform of goodness to understand the spiritual values of our life. *This platform of goodness is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā . That is qualified brahminical stage. Not a brāhmaṇa born in the family and doing all nonsense. No, not like that. A quality brāhmaṇa . Quality brāhmaṇa means one who is truthful, one who is self-controlled, one who has controlled his mind and senses, one who is very tolerant, one who is very simple, no duplicity, one who is very, very advanced in knowledge. And not only simply one knows, but the things are practically behaved. Just like I may know, you may know, a brāhmaṇa means truthful. It is not simply to know truthful but actually to become truthful. That is called vijñānaṁ . As some of you who are studying science, the scientific knowledge means you should know theoretically what is water—a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. But you must know how to prepare, mixing the two chemicals, hydrogen, oxygen. That is called vijñāna. Jñāna means simply theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practically to know, experimental knowledge. *So these are the qualification of brāhmaṇa : jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma*-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). So when you are on this platform, pure light, full of knowledge, then you will be able to understand what is God, what is Brahman. And this will be very easily done if you simply hear the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). You become purified. In this way, as soon as you become purified—even not fully purified, say fifty percent purified—then you are immediately situated on the modes of goodness. That purification can be possible, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā , by associating with devotees and understanding the subject matter stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam , in the Bhagavad-gītā . We are having so many centers all over the world just to give chance to the people to understand the subject matter of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam . So in this way one becomes purified and happy. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ (SB 1.2.20). This bhagavad-bhakti - yoga , by practicing bhagavad-bhakti - yoga , one becomes prasanna-mana , very happy mood. Then he will be able to understand, bhagavat-tattva-vijñānaṁ mukta-saṅgasya jāyate (SB 1.2.20). So from the very beginning of your life, as Prahlāda Mahārāja did, kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). He was five years old, and from the beginning of his life he was Kṛṣṇa conscious, and he used to teach Kṛṣṇa consciousness among his class friends. Prahlāda Mahārāja, in the school, he would preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness amongst the small children. So try to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Follow the footprints of great personalities like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja. They were child; *still they become topmost devotees. There are many others. The Kumāras, they were very topmost devotees. So of course it requires little endeavor. Prahlāda Mahārāja's father was a demon, number*-one atheist. Still, Prahlāda Mahārāja had the chance to hear Nārada Muni while he was within the womb of his mother. Nārada Muni was instructing his mother, but Prahlāda Mahārāja within the womb of his mother heard everything from Nārada Muni. So before coming out of the womb of mother he understood the Bhāgavata philosophy. So from the very beginning of his life he was bhāgavata. Bhāgavata means devotee. *So we can follow Prahlāda Mahārāja, Dhruva Mahārāja. Of course, it requires the help of the parents. Otherwise, if we practice bhāgavata - dharma or bhakti*-yogam from the very beginning of our life, it is successful life. Fortunately, we had the good opportunity of learning bhāgavata - dharma from our very childhood. My father was a devotee, and he trained us. So it is the duty of all parents to train the children in the bhāgavata - dharma . Then life is successful. Otherwise life is not successful. There is every chance of falling down. Falling down means life is meant for elevation to the platform of spiritual life. And if we do not do that, then we fall down to the animal life. There are many species of life. You have seen in your front. One may become cats and dogs also. There is a great science, but people have no knowledge, neither in the school, colleges these things are taught. Neither do they know, the so-called teachers and educated persons. They do not know. So as far as possible, try to understand this Kṛṣṇa philosophy and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā - mantra whenever you have got time. I think you have got enough time. That is my request. That we are preaching all over the world. Thank you very much. Devotee: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Conversation Q%26A -- February 14, 1975, Mexico (translated into Spanish throughout) Prabhupāda: Actually, spiritual consciousness keeps the body fit. Just like in the body the spirit soul is there and the consciousness is also there, maybe polluted, but as soon as the spirit soul gives up this body, the body immediately begins to decompose. So the decomposition of the body is checked by the spiritual presence. So if you become advanced in spiritual consciousness there is no question of suffering from bodily disease. (break) Woman devotee: (translating) . . . along with the spirit soul can be realized? *Prabhupāda: Yes, by your present position, you can simply take the information that the dimension of the spirit soul is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of your hair. Very small particle, that is spirit soul. The dimension is given. You have got your hair. You can just imagine only; you cannot measure. And you divide the top of your hair into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the measurement of the spirit soul. That small particle is so powerful. Just imagine what is spiritual power. It is less than the atom. Therefore it is described in the Vedic lit . . . aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20): "The spirit is greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest." Woman devotee: (translating) He wants to know exactly what is the form of the body. If spirit soul is nonmaterial, what is the form? Prabhupāda: There is form. Just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand, therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got . . . you have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form. Woman devotee: (translating) Is Jesus in the paramparā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. He says, "There is God. I am son of God." That is paramparā . Yes. Unfortunately nobody cares to follow Jesus Christ. That I must say. Jesus Christ says, "Thou shall not kill," and Christians are very expert to kill. (laughter) They take pride in bullfighting. This is the position. So it is very difficult to find out a real Christian. Hṛdayānanda: (explaining a question asked) He wants to ask something which is not about you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Woman devotee: (translating question) If the circumstances don't allow it—I can't live in the temple, can't live in the āśrama , but I can still see the devotees—what else can I do to advance spiritually? Prabhupāda: You follow the temple procedure. You can remain anywhere, it doesn't matter. What is temple? They are following some rules and regulation. (break) If you are eating something and if you get a better thing, you'll give it up. So when one takes to bhakti means he understands the inferior quality of karma . So you take the superior quality activities and you forget inferior quality. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). This is the Vedic version. When one finds out superior engagement, he gives up inferior engagement. Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) He asked about heart transplants, where does the soul go in heart transplant, when they change the heart from one body to another body. He's asking about that. Prabhupāda: Heart changing? Hanumān: No. Now they're doing this heart transplantation. They're taking the heart of one person . . . Prabhupāda: The soul changes from this heart to that heart. That's all. Just like you are running your car. It stops. Then you change, this car to that car. That's all. (laughter) This is it. It is very common thing. Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) If by purifying ourselves we feel our relationship that we have with the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the center of purification. *Hanumān: Prabhupāda, I would like to know, if there is no birth in the spiritual world, how do we re*-enter the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Birth means first of all you take your birth where Kṛṣṇa is now present. Kṛṣṇa is present in one of the universes. There are innumerable universes. So you take your birth in the next universe, or where Kṛṣṇa is now. Then you become trained up. And when you are trained up, then you personally go to Vaikuṇṭha. No birth. Hṛdayānanda: Any more questions and answers? Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that? Hṛdayānanda: More questions and answers? Prabhupāda: If you like, I can go on. (break) Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) If there's another way to go to God. If there is another way. *Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Because it is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā , Find out this. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . (Nitāi chants verse) Hṛdayānanda: (reads Spanish translation) *Prabhupāda: Nobody is allowed to enter kingdom of God without becoming bhakta . And there is no difficulty of becoming bhakta because the . . . to become bhakta means four principles. One thing is to always think of Kṛṣṇa. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That is bhakta . Simply by thinking of Kṛṣṇa . . . that is Hare Kṛṣṇa. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you think of Kṛṣṇa. You become bhakta immediately. Then, after becoming man- manā bhava, mad-yājī : "You worship Me," māṁ namaskuru , "and offer obeisances." It is very simple thing. If you think of Kṛṣṇa and if you offer little obeisances and if you worship Him, these three things will make you bhakta and you'll go back to home, back to Godhead. We are teaching this thing: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, offer obeisances unto Deity and worship. Finish all business. So why they should go to the jñāna path? It requires so much knowledge and so much grammatical, so much nose pressing, so many things. You avoid all these things. Simply do these three things and you become bhakta . Why don't you take the easiest process and go back to home, back to Godhead? Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) Conversation Q%26A -- February 14, 1975, Mexico (translated into Spanish throughout) Prabhupāda: Actually, spiritual consciousness keeps the body fit. Just like in the body the spirit soul is there and the consciousness is also there, maybe polluted, but as soon as the spirit soul gives up this body, the body immediately begins to decompose. So the decomposition of the body is checked by the spiritual presence. So if you become advanced in spiritual consciousness there is no question of suffering from bodily disease. (break) Woman devotee: (translating) . . . along with the spirit soul can be realized? *Prabhupāda: Yes, by your present position, you can simply take the information that the dimension of the spirit soul is one ten*-thousandth part of the tip of your hair. Very small particle, that is spirit soul. The dimension is given. You have got your hair. You can just imagine only; you cannot measure. And you divide the top of your hair into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the measurement of the spirit soul. That small particle is so powerful. Just imagine what is spiritual power. It is less than the atom. Therefore it is described in the Vedic lit . . . aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20): "The spirit is greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest." Woman devotee: (translating) He wants to know exactly what is the form of the body. If spirit soul is nonmaterial, what is the form? Prabhupāda: There is form. Just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand, therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got . . . you have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form. Woman devotee: (translating) Is Jesus in the paramparā ? Prabhupāda: Yes. He says, "There is God. I am son of God." That is paramparā . Yes. Unfortunately nobody cares to follow Jesus Christ. That I must say. Jesus Christ says, "Thou shall not kill," and Christians are very expert to kill. (laughter) They take pride in bullfighting. This is the position. So it is very difficult to find out a real Christian. Hṛdayānanda: (explaining a question asked) He wants to ask something which is not about you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Woman devotee: (translating question) If the circumstances don't allow it—I can't live in the temple, can't live in the āśrama , but I can still see the devotees—what else can I do to advance spiritually? Prabhupāda: You follow the temple procedure. You can remain anywhere, it doesn't matter. What is temple? They are following some rules and regulation. (break) If you are eating something and if you get a better thing, you'll give it up. So when one takes to bhakti means he understands the inferior quality of karma . So you take the superior quality activities and you forget inferior quality. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate ( BG 2.59). This is the Vedic version. When one finds out superior engagement, he gives up inferior engagement. Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) He asked about heart transplants, where does the soul go in heart transplant, when they change the heart from one body to another body. He's asking about that. Prabhupāda: Heart changing? Hanumān: No. Now they're doing this heart transplantation. They're taking the heart of one person . . . Prabhupāda: The soul changes from this heart to that heart. That's all. Just like you are running your car. It stops. Then you change, this car to that car. That's all. (laughter) This is it. It is very common thing. Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) If by purifying ourselves we feel our relationship that we have with the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the center of purification. *Hanumān: Prabhupāda, I would like to know, if there is no birth in the spiritual world, how do we re*-enter the spiritual world? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Birth means first of all you take your birth where Kṛṣṇa is now present. Kṛṣṇa is present in one of the universes. There are innumerable universes. So you take your birth in the next universe, or where Kṛṣṇa is now. Then you become trained up. And when you are trained up, then you personally go to Vaikuṇṭha. No birth. Hṛdayānanda: Any more questions and answers? Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is that? Hṛdayānanda: More questions and answers? Prabhupāda: If you like, I can go on. (break) Hṛdayānanda: (translating question) If there's another way to go to God. If there is another way. *Prabhupāda: No. (laughter) Because it is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā , Find out this. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti . (Nitāi chants verse) Hṛdayānanda: (reads Spanish translation) *Prabhupāda: Nobody is allowed to enter kingdom of God without becoming bhakta . And there is no difficulty of becoming bhakta because the . . . to become bhakta means four principles. One thing is to always think of Kṛṣṇa. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ . That is bhakta . Simply by thinking of Kṛṣṇa . . . that is Hare Kṛṣṇa. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you think of Kṛṣṇa. You become bhakta immediately. Then, after becoming man- manā bhava, mad-yājī : "You worship Me," māṁ namaskuru , "and offer obeisances." It is very simple thing. If you think of Kṛṣṇa and if you offer little obeisances and if you worship Him, these three things will make you bhakta and you'll go back to home, back to Godhead. We are teaching this thing: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, offer obeisances unto Deity and worship. Finish all business. So why they should go to the jñāna path? It requires so much knowledge and so much grammatical, so much nose pressing, so many things. You avoid all these things. Simply do these three things and you become bhakta . Why don't you take the easiest process and go back to home, back to Godhead? Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) Conversation -- March 15, 1975, Tehran *Prabhupāda: . . . manda*-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ ( SB 1.1.10). This is the position of the people. Their span of life is shortening. Nobody is living long life. And if he's little long life, then people will commit suicide. Before coming out of India I heard one of our members, a big industrialist, he has committed suicide in Calcutta. So perhaps you know. He committed suicide in falling from the Wellington Bridge to the Ganges. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Did you hear? Mrs. Patel: I think yes, I did. It came out of papers, because I read one paper. *Prabhupāda: He was a big industrialist. This is the embarrassment. You cannot get out of this. So out of hopelessness they commit suicide. So apart from suicide, so much anxiety. You cannot live very long, from physical. This anxiety is just like fire, slow fire—burning, burning, burning, burning. So people will be short*-lived, especially those who are very, very big men. Heart failure and short span of life. This is the program for killing them by māyā . So, prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ , ālpāyuṣaḥ . Prāyeṇa . Prāyeṇa means "almost." Nobody is dying at one hundred years. No. We don't find anyone nowadays. Of course, the limit is one hundred years. Even in this Kali-yuga, one's span of life is limited up to one hundred years. But nobody's going to that limit. If one lives eighty, eighty-five years, oh, he is supposed to be very grand old man. But actually one should live at least a hundred years. So that is not going on. Then the next qualification is mandāḥ . Mandāḥ means "bad" or "slow." So in that way more or less every one of us, we are bad, mandāḥ . If mandāḥ means not bad, slow—that is a fact, everyone knows. Slow means that this human form of body has got some mission to execute, but nobody knows. And if anyone knows, he's slow. He knows that death will come at any moment, that I must finish my real business. But nobody is interested. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? *Prabhupāda: Lazy, yes. Mandāḥ means lazy also. The real purpose of nature's way, that evolution is coming. Now the nature gives the chance, very good form of body than other lower grade of life—human form of life. Why? God realization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.1): "Now inquire about Brahman." Therefore the intelligence is there, the facility is there, the brain is there—but he's not taking advantage. He's using that brain and facility for material enjoyment. He has got better intelligence than the cats and dogs, so that he can understand what he is, what is this world, who is the creator, what is my relationship. But nobody is interested. He thinks that, "I shall remain permanently as I am living now. Let me enjoy, find out," what is called, "invent new ways of sense gratification." The brain is used. So new ways of sense gratification. Misused. He has got a nice brain than the cats and dogs, but instead of using it to understand this, "What I am? Am I this body or something else? Then why I am put into this body? If I am eternal, then why I am subjected to death?" these questions . . . no. No university, no education. Nothing . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the dog is, whole day and night, and the pig, whole day and night, searching after these bodily necessities of life—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo . And if one is little interested, he'll go to that Ānanda-mārga . Sumanda-matayo , some bad faith. Everyone will think his path is very nice, anything you manufacture. And Vivekananda will say: "Yes, it is all right." Yata mat tata pat . "You can manufacture your own religious way of life. That is all right." Just last evening this gentleman was coming. So this is their Kali-yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . "You have got your own way, that is all right." That gentlemen, what is his name? Movebhad? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Movebhed. *Prabhupāda: Movebhed. Movebhed. This is educated man. This is going on. And any damn rascal you accept. This is going on. They won't take the standard path. "Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is as good as others'." That's all. Even all this Ānanda*-mā is also this thing. I don't mind, it is a great bluff. Mrs. Patel: No, I thought of . . . (indistinct) . . . it, really. Prabhupāda: She does not know anything of the śastra , and he engages some man—whatever nonsense he speaks, that's all right. And people will . . . people will . . . she does not speak personally. Mrs. Patel: No, I wouldn't listen. Prabhupāda: No. Because she does not know; she is illiterate woman. Mrs. Patel: Because I have met her . . . (indistinct) . . . at some friend's house. Prabhupāda: Everyone. If we say, then people will accuse us, "This man is criticizing everyone." But I know that. I know that. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: All bogus humbug. Therefore I don't make any compromise. Let you . . . you may come to me or not—I don't care for it. But I cannot make any compromise with these bogus things. Mrs. Patel: There is no compromise to satya. Prabhupāda: Yes. I say my, my movement is for Kṛṣṇa. So what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all right. If you like, then come; or go away, I don't mind . . . (indistinct) . . . I am solid. I am solid. I have taken Kṛṣṇa. That is solid program. And whatever little success has become possible, it is due to my this faith. I never showed any jugglery, created any gold or anything like that. I say my disciples, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," that's all. There is no jugglery. So, follow these rules and regulations, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . Neither I have any such jugglery power, just like that Sai Baba does, some gold. People are so foolish. If little quantity of gold manufacturing, suppose he does so—he's God. So if the gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, why shall I accept this rascal, Sai Baba? Why not accept the bigger God, who has manufactured millions and millions of gold mines? It is quite reasonable, sensible. If gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, so why this man? Why not that person who created so many gold mines? In this planet there are gold mines. And there are innumerable planets, there are many, many, many, many gold mines. So who has created? Mrs. Patel: Do you think that the planets, they have got human beings like us? Prabhupāda: Huh? More intelligent. Mrs. Patel: More intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devatās, demigods. Mrs. Patel: Well, we used to see that they used to invite gods by mantras from other planets and make some most beautiful things. For example, Viśvakarmā was invited . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa invited Viśvakarmā to do the . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In great sacrifices they used to come. Mrs. Patel: Come. Prabhupāda: Even Lord Viṣṇu used to come. Mrs. Patel: Nowaday I think there is a little talks about it, that we used to invite people from different planets to do some most marvelous works. Now, I think, in States and other places, they've started. We have told them for since so many years that people used to come from different planets. Is it possible in this age also that people come from different planets? *Prabhupāda: Why they'll come to the third*-class man? They are not even third class, they're tenth class. Now they're less than śūdrās. Why they will come? And what capacity you have got to invite them? If you invite some big man, you must be also big. Why big man will come to a third class, fourth class, tenth class? How do you expect to invite? At that time Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was there. They would come by the invitation of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was so influential that people will not suffer for any kind of miserable condition. The subjects were so peaceful. That is described in the Bhāgavata . Find out, dharma-kṣetre . (to devotee) When I talk, these people, they have learned everything. As if it is meant for you only, my secretary. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have only, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one hope in this Kali*-yuga—is by listening to you. Prabhupāda: And who is going to listen me? Where is Śrutakīrti? Devotee: I don't know. He's in his room. Prabhupāda: What he's doing? Devotee (2): He's packing. Prabhupāda: So whenever there is meeting, one of you must be present. Why don't you come? Devotee: I was trying to pack before . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Now packing. Anytime. I have to call you. Why? All of you should be present. Do you think you have learned everything? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you come? Everyone should stop all business and should come here. What is that? Find out this verse what I could not remember. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , about King Yudhiṣṭhira? Prabhupāda: Yes, King Yudhiṣṭhira. Devotee: The one we were reading the other day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (indistinct) . . . he was suffering. Prabhupāda: Nādhayo vyādhayaḥ , that verse. Three kinds of . . . Nitāi: Oh. "Due to the King's having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases or excessive heat or cold." Prabhupāda: Yes. You have left your country on account of mental agony. This is the result. But during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was no such thing as mental agony. Everyone felt secure, "Oh, there is our King." That is good state. This is not state—it is a combination of all rogues, dacoits, thieves. Somehow or other they have taken power and become a government. This is the position. *Mrs. Patel: Bhārata*-varṣa is always called deva-bhūmi . *Prabhupāda: Agar deva*-bhumi mein rakshas agar pahoonch gaya to deva-bhumi kahan rah gaya? (If the rakshas enter deva-bhūmi , then how can it be any longer deva-bhūmi ?) Mrs. Patel: Correct. Kitna time kitna samay aisa rahega? (Correct. For how long it will go like this?) *Prabhupāda: Kitna? yeh chaloo rahega? (How much? It will continue on and on.) Unless they take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they must suffer. Then there cannot be any sympathy for them. By nature's way, daivī hi eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva . . . (BG 7.14). Nature's way is that . . . just like the police. Police business is to punish the criminal so that he may become a faithful citizen. This is the idea. Otherwise why police gives trouble to somebody and not to others? Because it is the state force to turn the criminal citizen to become a law*-abiding citizen. That is the position. Similarly, the material nature is there simply to punish these criminal living entities, godless. That is her business. Nature's law . . . God's law is so perfect. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). His power, energy, so perfect that everything is going on naturally, machine. She is acting just like machine. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni (Bs 5.44). Just like this is the hand, and moving, and the shadow is also moving. So nature is like that. Nature is acting exactly as the Supreme Lord desires. We say, just like we go the sea beach, such a big, vast ocean, at any second it can overflood the city, the Bombay city or the Los Angeles city or the seaside. Such big, big waves. But we are walking. I teach all these things. Here is the water and here is the land. Because I know. I know that water cannot come here, although it is ten feet. But for the ocean it is not difficult. It can cover immediately hundreds of miles and overflood. It is not very difficult. And it has happened so many times. Why it is not happening? They say nature. Nature is there, but nature is acting on the order of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are blind. Just like ordinary man, they are afraid of the police. But if a gentleman knows that, "If I have not killed anyone, then what I have got connection with the police?" So this is the position. God is there. His power is acting, His laws is working. He is maintaining actually millions and trillions of living entities. And it has become a fashion that, "Banish God, I am leader. I can do something good for you. What is Kṛṣṇa? What is Allah? It doesn't matter." Mrs. Patel: These leaders are not even punished. For example, we heard . . . Prabhupāda: They're punished. So many leaders punished. Oh, who is not punished? The Hitler is punished. The Napoleon Bonaparte is punished. Churchill is punished. Gandhi is punished. Who is not punished? Mrs. Patel: There is a story from Tibet that how they have changed the minds of children and the youngsters. There was a big hall, City Hall. First they put all the children to the Buddhist temple. And they told children, "You ask to God, "Please give us." " They were hungry in the morning. They were not given anything. They said, go and "Pray to God. This is your God." The children said: "Yes." "Pray. He will give you food." So children automatically prayed and said . . . Prabhupāda: That is Communist movement. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. Mrs. Patel: So till afternoon children were crying. But no food came. Then they took them to the hall, City Hall. And there was Mao's photo. They said: "Now you request him." So the children started requesting, "Please give us food. Please give us food." Then immediately rich trays came, and children were fed. This is their tactics. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is going on. They are taking them to the church, village people, that "Pray, 'God give us our daily bread.' " So the bread is not coming. Then they take to the Communist leader and ask them, and they give bread. Mrs. Patel: And still Communism is going on. Prabhupāda: No. Because foolish . . . people are śūdrās . They have no intelligence. We are not going to become. The Communist leader cannot turn us to become Communist. Mrs. Patel: India won't be Communist? Prabhupāda: No. But "we" means personally I am, all my disciples, they are not going to become Communist, because they are not śūdrās . Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They can turn the śūdrās , not the brāhmaṇas . The brāhmaṇa means he is intelligent, he knows. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: He would ask immediately, "You rascal, you have brought this bread from where? From your father's property?" Ask. The brāhmaṇa will immediately ask. Mrs. Patel: Immediately ask, yes. Prabhupāda: "Where you got this bread? Have you manufactured in a factory?" "Yes. Bread bakery." "So where you have got this wheat? From where?" Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: "You manufactured wheat from your factory?" This question will come from the brāhmaṇa . "Why you are claiming that you have brought this bread? God has supplied you this bread. You are as agent, you have brought." That will be the enquiry of the brāhmaṇa . Mrs. Patel: Brāhmaṇa . Prabhupāda: And śūdrās , they do not know. They have no knowledge. They will accept, "Yes. Mao is supplying me bread." That is the difference between śūdrā and brāhmaṇa . Therefore we are trying to make brāhmaṇas , intelligent class of men. But people are not coming. Only few coming. Mrs. Patel: They will come. I should say that in such a short span . . . although . . . first time I came in contact with the with this movement ISKCON, was in Boston. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Mrs. Patel: Because I normally observe ekādaśī , that I don't know where I kept my diary. I must have misplaced it somewhere, and ekādaśī was near. Prabhupāda: Which year, Boston? Mrs. Patel: That was in '70. And I told one of my neighbors' wife, I said: "Now I don't know where to get it, because it is so difficult." She said: "No, it's not difficult. You go to this Hare Kṛṣṇa temple, and they will tell you." Then I got ekādaśī date from them. And then next time we met them in Hawaii. We visited the temple. That was our last leg of the . . . this visit. Prabhupāda: Now we have got very nice building in Hawaii. *Mrs. Patel: Yes. Then in Amsterdam, '71, my children—I was taking them to Europe. I took them to Europe. First I took them to all yatra*-sthan , pilgrimage places in India. Then I took them to Europe. I said: "Now you can understand what the difference is. And you can be proud of your country." So in Amsterdam we found some people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we went there. We went to the . . . it was just a new, starting temple in '71. And then we requested them, we said: "We are vegetarians. We are suffering so badly. We would have been better off if you have some prasādam there." Then, of course, whenever I go to London, I visit the temple. *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa has already come by His holy name, incarnated. We have to take advantage. Then everything will be all right. Nature's law is, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca (ŚU 6.8). Law is so perfect that everything is being done as if automatically, svābhāvikī . And it is being done automatically, but there is superintendent. If you infect some particular type of disease, nature's way is that you must develop that disease. The law is already there. It is not that nature will have to take care of it, "Oh, you have . . ." Just like police state, he has to. But automatically punished. Police law is not so perfect. Mrs. Patel: There is bribery there. Prabhupāda: If I steal, you have to arrest me, and then so many other things. If I bribe, then I can get excused. It is not perfect; *it is man*-made. But God-made law so perfect, if you have infected, you must suffer, automatically. Automatically the punishment will be. That is called svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca . So they do not study these laws. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Everything is there. Therefore we are trying to train our people to associate with goodness—not passion, not ignorance. There are three guṇas . Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). If you keep yourself in goodness, then you'll be promoted in higher planetary system. Or still higher— mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). "Anyone who is fully engaged in My devotional service, they will come to Me." The nature's law is there. You do it, you get the result. That's all. This is nature's law. Janma karma ca divyaṁ me jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti . . . (BG 4.9). If you simply remain in business to understand Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Therefore we are presenting so many books. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with Bhagavad-gītā . The Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me ca divyaṁ : "These are all divine, transcendental." Yo jānāti tattvataḥ . Anyone who knows that in truth, what is the result? The result is automatic. What is that? Tyaktvā dehaṁ . "When this body is given up," mām eti: "He comes to Me." Everything is automatic. Now they are manufacturing so many things, automatic machine. Just like in the airport, when you step in, the door is open, automatically. And they are declaring, "Wonderful thing happening." And where is this automatic—that you infect some disease, immediately suffer? Is it not automatic? Is it not better than the opening door? (laughter) But who is studying? But there are. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate . The king was so pious that things happened during his time, that there is no mental anxiety of the citizens. Naturally. If we know that, "Our king is so nice and he's giving us so nice facilities, let us sleep peacefully," naturally you have no anxiety of mind. So you said that you could not sleep even. At any moment, under the pretext of law, the government men come and take all whatever I have earned through hard labor. This is the position. Then one anxiety enters in your mind, the other anxiety will come automatically, one after another. (to devotee) Read that. Nitāi: "Due to the King's having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases, or excessive heat and cold." Prabhupāda: Not even excessive heat and cold. Mrs. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is also suffering. Just see. By possessing one good king, you'll have freedom from all these anxieties. This is Vedic civilization: to train up the king first class, then everything will be all right. Not these some third*-class, fourth-class men, by hook and crook gets vote and come into the government ruling. Their business is how to get money, that's all. Mrs. Patel: Raja ka pehle se adhikaar hai. (The king has already been right from the beginning.) Prabhupāda: They think, "I have got this post for few years. Let me earn some money by hook and crook." So in any condition of life I have got. Read it. Nitāi: (reading purport) "To be nonviolent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of the poor animals is Satan's philosophy." Prabhupāda: This is also another important point. People are engaged in killing the poor animals all over the world—big, big, slaughterhouse. So where the sinful activities will go on, they must suffer. Human beings, civilized, they are engaged in the most uncivilized way of life. In the jungle they used to kill some animals because they have no other idea to . . . how to eat. But now you are civilized man, you can produce so many things by your simply little labor. Why should you kill animals? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). "Now you are civilized, produce food grains, both the animals and the man, and be satisfied." Who is going there? No. Especially in the Western world, "Oh, why take so much trouble? Bring one animal, kill and eat." That's all. This is going on. Because you have to . . . it is not very good, hard labor. If the society takes three months' labor, he can produce one year's food, or more than that. That is experienced. All the cultivators, they do that. So if by three months' working I can get my . . . the food grains, foodstuff, for the whole year, why shall I kill daily ten thousands of poor animals, thinking that there is no sin, I'll not be punished, there is no God? This is going on. They're killing their own child. Now they will kill their child and eat, because there will be nothing available. That time is coming. Because they're violating the laws of God, time will come, they will have to kill their own children and eat. Where they will get animal? The animal stock will be finished. Then their children stock will be taken. This is already started. Mercy killing—what is that? Mrs. Patel: Mercy killing. rabhupāda: So we should be prepared for all these sufferings. That is coming, one after another. Svābhāvikī . It will come automatically. If you do this . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on." You think yourself free, all right; but it will come. If somebody says, "No, no. I am not going to be old man. I shall remain young man," "No, sir, it will be forced upon you." If somebody says: "No, I am not going to die," it will be forced upon you. Why don't you think, "Who is forcing?" Nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to become old man. Nobody wants to be diseased. Why these things are coming by force? Still they are so fools, they do not understand who is forcing, who is the agent, or who is the person. Confident, "Now I shall live like this. Now I am American, or Indian, my life is secure." *There in Mexico City I saw they were making good, big body. He's thinking, "If I build my body very strong and stout, then death will not come." He's thinking like that. Deha . Then apatya . Old man is thinking, "I have got so many nice, good children. They're earning. They're making business nicely. So I am secure." Dehapatya*-kalatra , wife. "Oh, I have got good wife, so faithful wife. So I am secure." Dehapatya-kalatra adi . This is the beginning of their self-sufficient. "Oh, I have got money, I have got good wife, I have got nice children, I have got good nation, good government. Therefore I have nothing to do with God. Let this poor man cry 'Hare Kṛṣṇa.' I have nothing to do." So therefore the next line says, pramattaḥ : "He's a madman. Here is a madman." Pramatta tasya nidhanaṁ . He knows that "All this paraphernalia I have created, they will be all finished." Tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati . He knows that, still he'll not see it. The real fact, he knows that, but still he'll not see it. He'll think, "I am secure." This is materialistic mentality. Paśyann api na paśyati . Although he knows, he sees, that a thief, a criminal, he knows that he'll be punished, he'll be arrested—and still he's stealing. This is going on of the whole world. He has seen others suffering. He knows that this is the law, but still he's stealing. Jai . Mrs. Patel: Meri cook aane wali hai khana khane ke liye. (My cook is coming to eat food.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Mrs. Patel: Aaj pad yatra hai? (Today is padayatra ?) Prabhupāda: Haan. Kahin bhi jayiye Hare Krishna naam japa kijiye. (Yes. Wherever you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is confident, "Now I am married, my position is secure. I have got so much money. I have got so many friends. I have got so much influence. I have got good wife, good children, nice bank balance, good position. Why shall I go to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am secure." This is going on. Everyone is thinking that he is perfect. This ignorance. "I can violate all the laws. I can violate the rules and regulations. I don't care for anyone." Therefore they are described as mūḍhā . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ . Nobody cares how nature's law is acting, how it is going on. Nobody cares. The threefold miseries are there. If I become a little neglectful, immediately I'll catch cold. The miserable condition, cold and heat, is going on. So there are rules and regulations, I have to take care. And if you don't take care, immediately you become attacked with pneumonia, bronchitis, this and that. We're seeing it. Nature's law is so perfect. Little negligence. If you eat little more, then there is indigestion. You cannot violate nature's law. If you violate, then you must suffer. *Devotee: In Kali*-yuga . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: In Kali*-yuga people think suffering is enjoyable. They glorify it. Prabhupāda: Unless he thinks like that, how he'll suffer? He has to suffer. That is the law of nature. And if he's not insane, then how he'll suffer? Just like the hippies—they suffer, and they take it as enjoyment. But by nature's law, he has to suffer. And if he does not take in that way—"It is enjoyment"—how he'll suffer? That is nature's mercy, that this man has to suffer, and if he does not become insane, how he'll suffer? He is punished. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is part of nature's arrangement . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . for him to suffer. Prabhupāda: Suffer. And He gives this facility that, "You suffer, and you take it as pleasure." That is nature's arrangement. That is nature's mercy. Just like we forget all our past life. If I do not forget . . . suppose I was very big man, but again I have become ordinary man, just like Bharata Mahārāja, you know. That is possible. So how you can stay? He will become mad. There are instances when Indra became a pig, and he forgot. When Brahmā came to take him again to the . . . "Oh, my dear pig, you were Indra. Now you have suffered, and you come with me. You come to your place, to your kingdom." "What is that? I was Indra? I don't mind. (laughter) I cannot go leaving my family, these pigs, so many." (laughter) So these are there. So Brahmā purposefully killed him and then take him. He would not agree. Even the pig will not agree that, "Come on to the heavenly kingdom. You were the king." "No, no, I don't like to go. This is very nice place, with stool and dirty water and these pigs. It is very nice life." This is māyā . This is māyā . Everyone will think, "I am very well situated. I am very happy. Why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?" That is the pleasure. Your question? What was the question? Devotee: I was just saying how people take this suffering and they glorify it. All the writers, the big poets and the writers. Prabhupāda: Because this is the same māyā , illusion. Therefore it is called illusion. Māyā means "What is not." That is māyā . They do not know. Just see. Nowadays the hippies, they are lying down on the street. There is no, I mean to say, surety where they will get food, and they don't take bath even . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- March 15, 1975, Tehran *Prabhupāda: . . . manda*-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ ( SB 1.1.10). This is the position of the people. Their span of life is shortening. Nobody is living long life. And if he's little long life, then people will commit suicide. Before coming out of India I heard one of our members, a big industrialist, he has committed suicide in Calcutta. So perhaps you know. He committed suicide in falling from the Wellington Bridge to the Ganges. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: Did you hear? Mrs. Patel: I think yes, I did. It came out of papers, because I read one paper. *Prabhupāda: He was a big industrialist. This is the embarrassment. You cannot get out of this. So out of hopelessness they commit suicide. So apart from suicide, so much anxiety. You cannot live very long, from physical. This anxiety is just like fire, slow fire—burning, burning, burning, burning. So people will be short*-lived, especially those who are very, very big men. Heart failure and short span of life. This is the program for killing them by māyā . So, prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ , ālpāyuṣaḥ . Prāyeṇa . Prāyeṇa means "almost." Nobody is dying at one hundred years. No. We don't find anyone nowadays. Of course, the limit is one hundred years. Even in this Kali-yuga, one's span of life is limited up to one hundred years. But nobody's going to that limit. If one lives eighty, eighty-five years, oh, he is supposed to be very grand old man. But actually one should live at least a hundred years. So that is not going on. Then the next qualification is mandāḥ . Mandāḥ means "bad" or "slow." So in that way more or less every one of us, we are bad, mandāḥ . If mandāḥ means not bad, slow—that is a fact, everyone knows. Slow means that this human form of body has got some mission to execute, but nobody knows. And if anyone knows, he's slow. He knows that death will come at any moment, that I must finish my real business. But nobody is interested. Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? Prabhupāda: Huh? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Lazy? *Prabhupāda: Lazy, yes. Mandāḥ means lazy also. The real purpose of nature's way, that evolution is coming. Now the nature gives the chance, very good form of body than other lower grade of life—human form of life. Why? God realization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.1): "Now inquire about Brahman." Therefore the intelligence is there, the facility is there, the brain is there—but he's not taking advantage. He's using that brain and facility for material enjoyment. He has got better intelligence than the cats and dogs, so that he can understand what he is, what is this world, who is the creator, what is my relationship. But nobody is interested. He thinks that, "I shall remain permanently as I am living now. Let me enjoy, find out," what is called, "invent new ways of sense gratification." The brain is used. So new ways of sense gratification. Misused. He has got a nice brain than the cats and dogs, but instead of using it to understand this, "What I am? Am I this body or something else? Then why I am put into this body? If I am eternal, then why I am subjected to death?" these questions . . . no. No university, no education. Nothing . . . (indistinct) . . . the same thing as the dog is, whole day and night, and the pig, whole day and night, searching after these bodily necessities of life—eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo . And if one is little interested, he'll go to that Ānanda-mārga . Sumanda-matayo , some bad faith. Everyone will think his path is very nice, anything you manufacture. And Vivekananda will say: "Yes, it is all right." Yata mat tata pat . "You can manufacture your own religious way of life. That is all right." Just last evening this gentleman was coming. So this is their Kali-yuga . . . (indistinct) . . . "You have got your own way, that is all right." That gentlemen, what is his name? Movebhad? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Movebhed. *Prabhupāda: Movebhed. Movebhed. This is educated man. This is going on. And any damn rascal you accept. This is going on. They won't take the standard path. "Kṛṣṇa's instruction, that is as good as others'." That's all. Even all this Ānanda*-mā is also this thing. I don't mind, it is a great bluff. Mrs. Patel: No, I thought of . . . (indistinct) . . . it, really. Prabhupāda: She does not know anything of the śastra , and he engages some man—whatever nonsense he speaks, that's all right. And people will . . . people will . . . she does not speak personally. Mrs. Patel: No, I wouldn't listen. Prabhupāda: No. Because she does not know; she is illiterate woman. Mrs. Patel: Because I have met her . . . (indistinct) . . . at some friend's house. Prabhupāda: Everyone. If we say, then people will accuse us, "This man is criticizing everyone." But I know that. I know that. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Yes. Prabhupāda: All bogus humbug. Therefore I don't make any compromise. Let you . . . you may come to me or not—I don't care for it. But I cannot make any compromise with these bogus things. Mrs. Patel: There is no compromise to satya. Prabhupāda: Yes. I say my, my movement is for Kṛṣṇa. So what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all right. If you like, then come; or go away, I don't mind . . . (indistinct) . . . I am solid. I am solid. I have taken Kṛṣṇa. That is solid program. And whatever little success has become possible, it is due to my this faith. I never showed any jugglery, created any gold or anything like that. I say my disciples, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," that's all. There is no jugglery. So, follow these rules and regulations, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās . Neither I have any such jugglery power, just like that Sai Baba does, some gold. People are so foolish. If little quantity of gold manufacturing, suppose he does so—he's God. So if the gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, why shall I accept this rascal, Sai Baba? Why not accept the bigger God, who has manufactured millions and millions of gold mines? It is quite reasonable, sensible. If gold manufacturing is the qualification of becoming God, so why this man? Why not that person who created so many gold mines? In this planet there are gold mines. And there are innumerable planets, there are many, many, many, many gold mines. So who has created? Mrs. Patel: Do you think that the planets, they have got human beings like us? Prabhupāda: Huh? More intelligent. Mrs. Patel: More intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devatās, demigods. Mrs. Patel: Well, we used to see that they used to invite gods by mantras from other planets and make some most beautiful things. For example, Viśvakarmā was invited . . . Lord Kṛṣṇa invited Viśvakarmā to do the . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In great sacrifices they used to come. Mrs. Patel: Come. Prabhupāda: Even Lord Viṣṇu used to come. Mrs. Patel: Nowaday I think there is a little talks about it, that we used to invite people from different planets to do some most marvelous works. Now, I think, in States and other places, they've started. We have told them for since so many years that people used to come from different planets. Is it possible in this age also that people come from different planets? *Prabhupāda: Why they'll come to the third*-class man? They are not even third class, they're tenth class. Now they're less than śūdrās. Why they will come? And what capacity you have got to invite them? If you invite some big man, you must be also big. Why big man will come to a third class, fourth class, tenth class? How do you expect to invite? At that time Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was there. They would come by the invitation of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was so influential that people will not suffer for any kind of miserable condition. The subjects were so peaceful. That is described in the Bhāgavata . Find out, dharma-kṣetre . (to devotee) When I talk, these people, they have learned everything. As if it is meant for you only, my secretary. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: We have only, Śrīla Prabhupāda, one hope in this Kali*-yuga—is by listening to you. Prabhupāda: And who is going to listen me? Where is Śrutakīrti? Devotee: I don't know. He's in his room. Prabhupāda: What he's doing? Devotee (2): He's packing. Prabhupāda: So whenever there is meeting, one of you must be present. Why don't you come? Devotee: I was trying to pack before . . . Prabhupāda: No, no. Now packing. Anytime. I have to call you. Why? All of you should be present. Do you think you have learned everything? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you come? Everyone should stop all business and should come here. What is that? Find out this verse what I could not remember. *Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam , about King Yudhiṣṭhira? Prabhupāda: Yes, King Yudhiṣṭhira. Devotee: The one we were reading the other day? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: (indistinct) . . . he was suffering. Prabhupāda: Nādhayo vyādhayaḥ , that verse. Three kinds of . . . Nitāi: Oh. "Due to the King's having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases or excessive heat or cold." Prabhupāda: Yes. You have left your country on account of mental agony. This is the result. But during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was no such thing as mental agony. Everyone felt secure, "Oh, there is our King." That is good state. This is not state—it is a combination of all rogues, dacoits, thieves. Somehow or other they have taken power and become a government. This is the position. *Mrs. Patel: Bhārata*-varṣa is always called deva-bhūmi . *Prabhupāda: Agar deva*-bhumi mein rakshas agar pahoonch gaya to deva-bhumi kahan rah gaya? (If the rakshas enter deva-bhūmi , then how can it be any longer deva-bhūmi ?) Mrs. Patel: Correct. Kitna time kitna samay aisa rahega? (Correct. For how long it will go like this?) *Prabhupāda: Kitna? yeh chaloo rahega? (How much? It will continue on and on.) Unless they take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they must suffer. Then there cannot be any sympathy for them. By nature's way, daivī hi eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā mām eva . . . (BG 7.14). Nature's way is that . . . just like the police. Police business is to punish the criminal so that he may become a faithful citizen. This is the idea. Otherwise why police gives trouble to somebody and not to others? Because it is the state force to turn the criminal citizen to become a law*-abiding citizen. That is the position. Similarly, the material nature is there simply to punish these criminal living entities, godless. That is her business. Nature's law . . . God's law is so perfect. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). His power, energy, so perfect that everything is going on naturally, machine. She is acting just like machine. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni (Bs 5.44). Just like this is the hand, and moving, and the shadow is also moving. So nature is like that. Nature is acting exactly as the Supreme Lord desires. We say, just like we go the sea beach, such a big, vast ocean, at any second it can overflood the city, the Bombay city or the Los Angeles city or the seaside. Such big, big waves. But we are walking. I teach all these things. Here is the water and here is the land. Because I know. I know that water cannot come here, although it is ten feet. But for the ocean it is not difficult. It can cover immediately hundreds of miles and overflood. It is not very difficult. And it has happened so many times. Why it is not happening? They say nature. Nature is there, but nature is acting on the order of God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are blind. Just like ordinary man, they are afraid of the police. But if a gentleman knows that, "If I have not killed anyone, then what I have got connection with the police?" So this is the position. God is there. His power is acting, His laws is working. He is maintaining actually millions and trillions of living entities. And it has become a fashion that, "Banish God, I am leader. I can do something good for you. What is Kṛṣṇa? What is Allah? It doesn't matter." Mrs. Patel: These leaders are not even punished. For example, we heard . . . Prabhupāda: They're punished. So many leaders punished. Oh, who is not punished? The Hitler is punished. The Napoleon Bonaparte is punished. Churchill is punished. Gandhi is punished. Who is not punished? Mrs. Patel: There is a story from Tibet that how they have changed the minds of children and the youngsters. There was a big hall, City Hall. First they put all the children to the Buddhist temple. And they told children, "You ask to God, "Please give us." " They were hungry in the morning. They were not given anything. They said, go and "Pray to God. This is your God." The children said: "Yes." "Pray. He will give you food." So children automatically prayed and said . . . Prabhupāda: That is Communist movement. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are doing that. Mrs. Patel: So till afternoon children were crying. But no food came. Then they took them to the hall, City Hall. And there was Mao's photo. They said: "Now you request him." So the children started requesting, "Please give us food. Please give us food." Then immediately rich trays came, and children were fed. This is their tactics. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is going on. They are taking them to the church, village people, that "Pray, 'God give us our daily bread.' " So the bread is not coming. Then they take to the Communist leader and ask them, and they give bread. Mrs. Patel: And still Communism is going on. Prabhupāda: No. Because foolish . . . people are śūdrās . They have no intelligence. We are not going to become. The Communist leader cannot turn us to become Communist. Mrs. Patel: India won't be Communist? Prabhupāda: No. But "we" means personally I am, all my disciples, they are not going to become Communist, because they are not śūdrās . Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: They can turn the śūdrās , not the brāhmaṇas . The brāhmaṇa means he is intelligent, he knows. Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: He would ask immediately, "You rascal, you have brought this bread from where? From your father's property?" Ask. The brāhmaṇa will immediately ask. Mrs. Patel: Immediately ask, yes. Prabhupāda: "Where you got this bread? Have you manufactured in a factory?" "Yes. Bread bakery." "So where you have got this wheat? From where?" Mrs. Patel: Yes. Prabhupāda: "You manufactured wheat from your factory?" This question will come from the brāhmaṇa . "Why you are claiming that you have brought this bread? God has supplied you this bread. You are as agent, you have brought." That will be the enquiry of the brāhmaṇa . Mrs. Patel: Brāhmaṇa . Prabhupāda: And śūdrās , they do not know. They have no knowledge. They will accept, "Yes. Mao is supplying me bread." That is the difference between śūdrā and brāhmaṇa . Therefore we are trying to make brāhmaṇas , intelligent class of men. But people are not coming. Only few coming. Mrs. Patel: They will come. I should say that in such a short span . . . although . . . first time I came in contact with the with this movement ISKCON, was in Boston. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Mrs. Patel: Because I normally observe ekādaśī , that I don't know where I kept my diary. I must have misplaced it somewhere, and ekādaśī was near. Prabhupāda: Which year, Boston? Mrs. Patel: That was in '70. And I told one of my neighbors' wife, I said: "Now I don't know where to get it, because it is so difficult." She said: "No, it's not difficult. You go to this Hare Kṛṣṇa temple, and they will tell you." Then I got ekādaśī date from them. And then next time we met them in Hawaii. We visited the temple. That was our last leg of the . . . this visit. Prabhupāda: Now we have got very nice building in Hawaii. *Mrs. Patel: Yes. Then in Amsterdam, '71, my children—I was taking them to Europe. I took them to Europe. First I took them to all yatra*-sthan , pilgrimage places in India. Then I took them to Europe. I said: "Now you can understand what the difference is. And you can be proud of your country." So in Amsterdam we found some people chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we went there. We went to the . . . it was just a new, starting temple in '71. And then we requested them, we said: "We are vegetarians. We are suffering so badly. We would have been better off if you have some prasādam there." Then, of course, whenever I go to London, I visit the temple. *Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa has already come by His holy name, incarnated. We have to take advantage. Then everything will be all right. Nature's law is, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna*-bala-kriyā ca (ŚU 6.8). Law is so perfect that everything is being done as if automatically, svābhāvikī . And it is being done automatically, but there is superintendent. If you infect some particular type of disease, nature's way is that you must develop that disease. The law is already there. It is not that nature will have to take care of it, "Oh, you have . . ." Just like police state, he has to. But automatically punished. Police law is not so perfect. Mrs. Patel: There is bribery there. Prabhupāda: If I steal, you have to arrest me, and then so many other things. If I bribe, then I can get excused. It is not perfect; *it is man*-made. But God-made law so perfect, if you have infected, you must suffer, automatically. Automatically the punishment will be. That is called svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca . So they do not study these laws. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Everything is there. Therefore we are trying to train our people to associate with goodness—not passion, not ignorance. There are three guṇas . Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). If you keep yourself in goodness, then you'll be promoted in higher planetary system. Or still higher— mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). "Anyone who is fully engaged in My devotional service, they will come to Me." The nature's law is there. You do it, you get the result. That's all. This is nature's law. Janma karma ca divyaṁ me jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti . . . (BG 4.9). If you simply remain in business to understand Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Therefore we are presenting so many books. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with Bhagavad-gītā . The Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me ca divyaṁ : "These are all divine, transcendental." Yo jānāti tattvataḥ . Anyone who knows that in truth, what is the result? The result is automatic. What is that? Tyaktvā dehaṁ . "When this body is given up," mām eti: "He comes to Me." Everything is automatic. Now they are manufacturing so many things, automatic machine. Just like in the airport, when you step in, the door is open, automatically. And they are declaring, "Wonderful thing happening." And where is this automatic—that you infect some disease, immediately suffer? Is it not automatic? Is it not better than the opening door? (laughter) But who is studying? But there are. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate . The king was so pious that things happened during his time, that there is no mental anxiety of the citizens. Naturally. If we know that, "Our king is so nice and he's giving us so nice facilities, let us sleep peacefully," naturally you have no anxiety of mind. So you said that you could not sleep even. At any moment, under the pretext of law, the government men come and take all whatever I have earned through hard labor. This is the position. Then one anxiety enters in your mind, the other anxiety will come automatically, one after another. (to devotee) Read that. Nitāi: "Due to the King's having no enemy, the living beings were not at any time disturbed by mental agonies, diseases, or excessive heat and cold." Prabhupāda: Not even excessive heat and cold. Mrs. Patel: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is also suffering. Just see. By possessing one good king, you'll have freedom from all these anxieties. This is Vedic civilization: to train up the king first class, then everything will be all right. Not these some third*-class, fourth-class men, by hook and crook gets vote and come into the government ruling. Their business is how to get money, that's all. Mrs. Patel: Raja ka pehle se adhikaar hai. (The king has already been right from the beginning.) Prabhupāda: They think, "I have got this post for few years. Let me earn some money by hook and crook." So in any condition of life I have got. Read it. Nitāi: (reading purport) "To be nonviolent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of the poor animals is Satan's philosophy." Prabhupāda: This is also another important point. People are engaged in killing the poor animals all over the world—big, big, slaughterhouse. So where the sinful activities will go on, they must suffer. Human beings, civilized, they are engaged in the most uncivilized way of life. In the jungle they used to kill some animals because they have no other idea to . . . how to eat. But now you are civilized man, you can produce so many things by your simply little labor. Why should you kill animals? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). "Now you are civilized, produce food grains, both the animals and the man, and be satisfied." Who is going there? No. Especially in the Western world, "Oh, why take so much trouble? Bring one animal, kill and eat." That's all. This is going on. Because you have to . . . it is not very good, hard labor. If the society takes three months' labor, he can produce one year's food, or more than that. That is experienced. All the cultivators, they do that. So if by three months' working I can get my . . . the food grains, foodstuff, for the whole year, why shall I kill daily ten thousands of poor animals, thinking that there is no sin, I'll not be punished, there is no God? This is going on. They're killing their own child. Now they will kill their child and eat, because there will be nothing available. That time is coming. Because they're violating the laws of God, time will come, they will have to kill their own children and eat. Where they will get animal? The animal stock will be finished. Then their children stock will be taken. This is already started. Mercy killing—what is that? Mrs. Patel: Mercy killing. rabhupāda: So we should be prepared for all these sufferings. That is coming, one after another. Svābhāvikī . It will come automatically. If you do this . . . (indistinct) . . . "Come on." You think yourself free, all right; but it will come. If somebody says, "No, no. I am not going to be old man. I shall remain young man," "No, sir, it will be forced upon you." If somebody says: "No, I am not going to die," it will be forced upon you. Why don't you think, "Who is forcing?" Nobody wants to die. Nobody wants to become old man. Nobody wants to be diseased. Why these things are coming by force? Still they are so fools, they do not understand who is forcing, who is the agent, or who is the person. Confident, "Now I shall live like this. Now I am American, or Indian, my life is secure." *There in Mexico City I saw they were making good, big body. He's thinking, "If I build my body very strong and stout, then death will not come." He's thinking like that. Deha . Then apatya . Old man is thinking, "I have got so many nice, good children. They're earning. They're making business nicely. So I am secure." Dehapatya*-kalatra , wife. "Oh, I have got good wife, so faithful wife. So I am secure." Dehapatya-kalatra adi . This is the beginning of their self-sufficient. "Oh, I have got money, I have got good wife, I have got nice children, I have got good nation, good government. Therefore I have nothing to do with God. Let this poor man cry 'Hare Kṛṣṇa.' I have nothing to do." So therefore the next line says, pramattaḥ : "He's a madman. Here is a madman." Pramatta tasya nidhanaṁ . He knows that "All this paraphernalia I have created, they will be all finished." Tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati . He knows that, still he'll not see it. The real fact, he knows that, but still he'll not see it. He'll think, "I am secure." This is materialistic mentality. Paśyann api na paśyati . Although he knows, he sees, that a thief, a criminal, he knows that he'll be punished, he'll be arrested—and still he's stealing. This is going on of the whole world. He has seen others suffering. He knows that this is the law, but still he's stealing. Jai . Mrs. Patel: Meri cook aane wali hai khana khane ke liye. (My cook is coming to eat food.) Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.) Mrs. Patel: Aaj pad yatra hai? (Today is padayatra ?) Prabhupāda: Haan. Kahin bhi jayiye Hare Krishna naam japa kijiye. (Yes. Wherever you go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is confident, "Now I am married, my position is secure. I have got so much money. I have got so many friends. I have got so much influence. I have got good wife, good children, nice bank balance, good position. Why shall I go to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am secure." This is going on. Everyone is thinking that he is perfect. This ignorance. "I can violate all the laws. I can violate the rules and regulations. I don't care for anyone." Therefore they are described as mūḍhā . Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ . Nobody cares how nature's law is acting, how it is going on. Nobody cares. The threefold miseries are there. If I become a little neglectful, immediately I'll catch cold. The miserable condition, cold and heat, is going on. So there are rules and regulations, I have to take care. And if you don't take care, immediately you become attacked with pneumonia, bronchitis, this and that. We're seeing it. Nature's law is so perfect. Little negligence. If you eat little more, then there is indigestion. You cannot violate nature's law. If you violate, then you must suffer. *Devotee: In Kali*-yuga . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee: In Kali*-yuga people think suffering is enjoyable. They glorify it. Prabhupāda: Unless he thinks like that, how he'll suffer? He has to suffer. That is the law of nature. And if he's not insane, then how he'll suffer? Just like the hippies—they suffer, and they take it as enjoyment. But by nature's law, he has to suffer. And if he does not take in that way—"It is enjoyment"—how he'll suffer? That is nature's mercy, that this man has to suffer, and if he does not become insane, how he'll suffer? He is punished. Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is part of nature's arrangement . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . for him to suffer. Prabhupāda: Suffer. And He gives this facility that, "You suffer, and you take it as pleasure." That is nature's arrangement. That is nature's mercy. Just like we forget all our past life. If I do not forget . . . suppose I was very big man, but again I have become ordinary man, just like Bharata Mahārāja, you know. That is possible. So how you can stay? He will become mad. There are instances when Indra became a pig, and he forgot. When Brahmā came to take him again to the . . . "Oh, my dear pig, you were Indra. Now you have suffered, and you come with me. You come to your place, to your kingdom." "What is that? I was Indra? I don't mind. (laughter) I cannot go leaving my family, these pigs, so many." (laughter) So these are there. So Brahmā purposefully killed him and then take him. He would not agree. Even the pig will not agree that, "Come on to the heavenly kingdom. You were the king." "No, no, I don't like to go. This is very nice place, with stool and dirty water and these pigs. It is very nice life." This is māyā . This is māyā . Everyone will think, "I am very well situated. I am very happy. Why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?" That is the pleasure. Your question? What was the question? Devotee: I was just saying how people take this suffering and they glorify it. All the writers, the big poets and the writers. Prabhupāda: Because this is the same māyā , illusion. Therefore it is called illusion. Māyā means "What is not." That is māyā . They do not know. Just see. Nowadays the hippies, they are lying down on the street. There is no, I mean to say, surety where they will get food, and they don't take bath even . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- March 23, 1975, Mayapur Prabhupāda: . . . offering his blessings upon you. You are fulfilling his mission. He wanted that European, American should come here. It is all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's blessing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So there is no scarcity of space for keeping all the devotees? Bhavānanda: Everyone is situated . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: Everyone is situated in rooms. Jayapatākā: Without these dwelling . . . wall dwellings, there would have been no hope. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said, (laughter) "You must complete, and whatever amount required, I shall pay." That I could analyze. (temple bells ringing in background) (break) Jayapatākā: . . . you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Only by your mercy you have brought us to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply messenger. Mercy is of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Prabhupāda. Before your coming they predicted that "Somebody will bring." Maybe that somebody I am. (chuckles) Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura predicted. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has given us nice place. Stay here. So you producing food grains? Jayapatākā: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Sufficient? What about the fruit garden? Jayapatākā: Fruit garden, there is a . . . many banana trees are producing their bananas, some pomegranate . . . Prabhupāda: You are getting banana, both unripe and ripe. Jayapatākā: Now they are all unripe. But they'll be ripe, pakkā . Prabhupāda: No, there is a class . . . Jayapatākā: Right, the kacha kola (green bananas) we have . . . getting very small. We have mostly the ripe bananas. Prabhupāda: And parwala (pointed gourd)? Jayapatākā: Parwala , yes. Prabhupāda: Where you are producing parwala here? Jayapatākā: Parwala , oh, across the road we get. Prabhupāda: How many . . . (break) One who is sincerely engaged in the service of the Lord, He gives him intelligence, "Now do this, do this." Simply we have to become sincere servant; then all dictation will come from within. Kṛṣṇa is there is everyone's heart. So work sincerely and everything will make progress. Who has painted this picture? Acyutānanda: Puṣkara. Prabhupāda: Ohh. Very nice. So Ātreya Ṛṣi Prabhu, you are feeling all right here? Jayapatākā: You feeling all right here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Jayatīrtha: The atmosphere here is sublime, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now make sublime management. (laughter) That is required now. We are now extended. We must manage very nicely. Of course, management means sincere service. Then everything will be all right. Still, we have to deal with the material world. We have to become little proper. So in Calcutta the one lock was open. There was nothing. You said it is in Calcutta? Eh? Is it all right? (aside) You don't require fan. Therefore I planned two sides open, cross ventilation. Jayapatākā: Everything you plan is perfect. *Prabhupāda: No. I imagine, Kṛṣṇa makes it perfect. I think, "It would have been nice if it would have been like this," but Kṛṣṇa . . . yei prasāde pūre sarva āśā (Śrī*-guru-vandanā 2). Long, long ago, when I was publishing Back to Godhead, one sheet, I was thinking that, "What is this sheet? If it would have been like Illustrated Weekly, then it would have been nice." Now they are coming like that. Jayapatākā: Now Illustrated Weekly is nothing compared to Back to Godhead. *Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Better than Illustrated Weekly. I thought of getting some help from artist. For painting picture, I will dictate, and they will paint picture. Now Kṛṣṇa has got lots of artists. So depend on Kṛṣṇa. He can do everything, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. This new catalog you have seen? They have made nice catalog, Rāmeśvara Prabhu. Rāmeśvara Prabhu is very competent manager of the BBT. Jayatīrtha: Yes, he's first class. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he works very hard. That is his qualification. What is the news of our Karāndhara Prabhu? He's not coming? Jayatīrtha: He came. The week before we left, he came three times to the temple, twice for the evening āratik and once for the Sunday feast. He came and listened to the lecture. So he is doing a little better. (break) Rāmeśvara: Scientific Basis? Prabhupāda: Yes? Rāmeśvara: It is being printed now in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, you wanted to bring it? Rāmeśvara: We may print it in India also. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: But to get it in the selling right away we printed it in America. Prabhupāda: You have brought some book? You have brought some books? Rāmeśvara: Not too many of those, because they're still printing. Prabhupāda: All right. *Jayatīrtha: We brought some copies of that Ādi*-līlā , Chapter Seven. (break) *Prabhupāda: This is conclusion. Because he is Arjuna, devotee, he simply understood, "Yes. Whatever You say, correct. The demons or even the gods, they cannot understand." Why Arjuna understood? That he has explained in that Eighteenth Chapter. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtiṁ labdhā tvat*-prasādād madhusūdana ( BG 18.73). Trivikrama: Is he never envious? Prabhupāda: Huh? (pause) (break) Paramahaṁsa: "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: That's it. He understood that, "Kṛṣṇa is divine. So whatever He says, that is my duty to do, not to judge Him on my platform." That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. One who does not take Kṛṣṇa in the same platform as one is but accepts Kṛṣṇa's personality, then he can understand. Otherwise, how one can accept it that a person has expanded many millions of universes like this? Immediately they will take as mythology, because he's thinking on terms of his capacity, not as Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore nobody could understand Kṛṣṇa. We took the simple method, accept Kṛṣṇa as He says. That's all. Finished. That is the main business. Our philosophy is simple because we take it, Kṛṣṇa's word, as it is, that's all. And we believe it firmly, "Yes, this is the truth." To understand Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. What Kṛṣṇa says, you accept it. Sarvam etam ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever You say, I accept it. Not only I accept it blindly, but this very thing was accepted by such great personality as Vyāsadeva." (aside) Anyone who wants to come in . . . simple thing. Big, big ācāryas , they accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is. And why shall I not accept? This is paramparā system. If others have accepted Kṛṣṇa as He tells, and they have become big, big ācāryas , so what objection can be there from my part? What I am? Paramahaṁsa: They have some completely illogical argument. Just like those people in . . . Prabhupāda: Unfortunate. Illogical argument means unfortunate. Rascals. Therefore we say plainly, "You are all rascals." That's all. You have no discrimination. Anyone who does not believe as He is, he's a rascal, that's all. He may be happy or sorry, you don't mind. You don't make compromise. At least I do not do. If you have no full faith in Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal, that's all, whatever you may be. The Dr. Patel does not like this, but he does not protest to me. As others say, he protests by them. It is a fact. We have no difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa and thus make our life successful. But we unnecessarily bring arguments, impediments to understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are unfortunate, envious of Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Envious. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Paramahaṁsa: They say that . . . they become very agitated when we stress so much, in Bhagavad*-gītā , that Kṛṣṇa is God. Prabhupāda: That means envious, envious. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, envious. They say: "Why is it so . . .? Why do you stress . . .?" Prabhupāda: Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . Find out. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: Ajasram yoniṣu . Paramahaṁsa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: All of them are going to Russia to take birth. Yes. Not Russian people are bad. That is a mistake. Some of them. Some people are good. That I have experienced. Otherwise how . . . (aside) Don't do that. Otherwise how that Anatole came to become my . . .? And there are many like that, mostly like him. It is by artificial suppression that it has been advertised, "The Russian people are all Communist." That's not fact. That's not fact. Simply some rogues and thieves and demons, by threats . . . it is a country of, what is called? Terrorism. A terror. People have decided to leave this country, but they cannot leave. Mostly Russians, they want to leave that country, and some of them already done so. Many Russians have fled away. Many Chinese men have fled away. They don't like this philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: Also the East Europe countries, Eastern Europe countries. Prabhupāda: Many countries. It is unnatural to deny God. It is unnatural. This is also Kṛṣṇa's another magic. All such people who had any doubt about Kṛṣṇa, they have been kept over there in Russia. Just like the other day there was a train crash accident. So all these rascals, they are brought together in that way in a train or two train, and they smashed. That is . . . just like Kṛṣṇa did in Battle of Kurukṣetra. All the rascals were brought into the battlefield and finished. Therefore Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- March 23, 1975, Mayapur Prabhupāda: . . . offering his blessings upon you. You are fulfilling his mission. He wanted that European, American should come here. It is all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's blessing. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So there is no scarcity of space for keeping all the devotees? Bhavānanda: Everyone is situated . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: Everyone is situated in rooms. Jayapatākā: Without these dwelling . . . wall dwellings, there would have been no hope. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said, (laughter) "You must complete, and whatever amount required, I shall pay." That I could analyze. (temple bells ringing in background) (break) Jayapatākā: . . . you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Only by your mercy you have brought us to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply messenger. Mercy is of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Prabhupāda. Before your coming they predicted that "Somebody will bring." Maybe that somebody I am. (chuckles) Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura predicted. So anyway, Kṛṣṇa has given us nice place. Stay here. So you producing food grains? Jayapatākā: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: Sufficient? What about the fruit garden? Jayapatākā: Fruit garden, there is a . . . many banana trees are producing their bananas, some pomegranate . . . Prabhupāda: You are getting banana, both unripe and ripe. Jayapatākā: Now they are all unripe. But they'll be ripe, pakkā . Prabhupāda: No, there is a class . . . Jayapatākā: Right, the kacha kola (green bananas) we have . . . getting very small. We have mostly the ripe bananas. Prabhupāda: And parwala (pointed gourd)? Jayapatākā: Parwala , yes. Prabhupāda: Where you are producing parwala here? Jayapatākā: Parwala , oh, across the road we get. Prabhupāda: How many . . . (break) One who is sincerely engaged in the service of the Lord, He gives him intelligence, "Now do this, do this." Simply we have to become sincere servant; then all dictation will come from within. Kṛṣṇa is there is everyone's heart. So work sincerely and everything will make progress. Who has painted this picture? Acyutānanda: Puṣkara. Prabhupāda: Ohh. Very nice. So Ātreya Ṛṣi Prabhu, you are feeling all right here? Jayapatākā: You feeling all right here? Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Jayatīrtha: The atmosphere here is sublime, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now make sublime management. (laughter) That is required now. We are now extended. We must manage very nicely. Of course, management means sincere service. Then everything will be all right. Still, we have to deal with the material world. We have to become little proper. So in Calcutta the one lock was open. There was nothing. You said it is in Calcutta? Eh? Is it all right? (aside) You don't require fan. Therefore I planned two sides open, cross ventilation. Jayapatākā: Everything you plan is perfect. *Prabhupāda: No. I imagine, Kṛṣṇa makes it perfect. I think, "It would have been nice if it would have been like this," but Kṛṣṇa . . . yei prasāde pūre sarva āśā (Śrī*-guru-vandanā 2). Long, long ago, when I was publishing Back to Godhead, one sheet, I was thinking that, "What is this sheet? If it would have been like Illustrated Weekly, then it would have been nice." Now they are coming like that. Jayapatākā: Now Illustrated Weekly is nothing compared to Back to Godhead. *Prabhupāda: No. (laughs) Better than Illustrated Weekly. I thought of getting some help from artist. For painting picture, I will dictate, and they will paint picture. Now Kṛṣṇa has got lots of artists. So depend on Kṛṣṇa. He can do everything, Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma. This new catalog you have seen? They have made nice catalog, Rāmeśvara Prabhu. Rāmeśvara Prabhu is very competent manager of the BBT. Jayatīrtha: Yes, he's first class. Prabhupāda: Yes. And he works very hard. That is his qualification. What is the news of our Karāndhara Prabhu? He's not coming? Jayatīrtha: He came. The week before we left, he came three times to the temple, twice for the evening āratik and once for the Sunday feast. He came and listened to the lecture. So he is doing a little better. (break) Rāmeśvara: Scientific Basis? Prabhupāda: Yes? Rāmeśvara: It is being printed now in America. Prabhupāda: Oh, you wanted to bring it? Rāmeśvara: We may print it in India also. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: But to get it in the selling right away we printed it in America. Prabhupāda: You have brought some book? You have brought some books? Rāmeśvara: Not too many of those, because they're still printing. Prabhupāda: All right. *Jayatīrtha: We brought some copies of that Ādi*-līlā , Chapter Seven. (break) *Prabhupāda: This is conclusion. Because he is Arjuna, devotee, he simply understood, "Yes. Whatever You say, correct. The demons or even the gods, they cannot understand." Why Arjuna understood? That he has explained in that Eighteenth Chapter. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtiṁ labdhā tvat*-prasādād madhusūdana ( BG 18.73). Trivikrama: Is he never envious? Prabhupāda: Huh? (pause) (break) Paramahaṁsa: "Arjuna said, My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and prepared to act according to Your instructions." Prabhupāda: That's it. He understood that, "Kṛṣṇa is divine. So whatever He says, that is my duty to do, not to judge Him on my platform." That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. One who does not take Kṛṣṇa in the same platform as one is but accepts Kṛṣṇa's personality, then he can understand. Otherwise, how one can accept it that a person has expanded many millions of universes like this? Immediately they will take as mythology, because he's thinking on terms of his capacity, not as Kṛṣṇa says. Therefore nobody could understand Kṛṣṇa. We took the simple method, accept Kṛṣṇa as He says. That's all. Finished. That is the main business. Our philosophy is simple because we take it, Kṛṣṇa's word, as it is, that's all. And we believe it firmly, "Yes, this is the truth." To understand Kṛṣṇa is not difficult. What Kṛṣṇa says, you accept it. Sarvam etam ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Whatever You say, I accept it. Not only I accept it blindly, but this very thing was accepted by such great personality as Vyāsadeva." (aside) Anyone who wants to come in . . . simple thing. Big, big ācāryas , they accepted Kṛṣṇa as He is. And why shall I not accept? This is paramparā system. If others have accepted Kṛṣṇa as He tells, and they have become big, big ācāryas , so what objection can be there from my part? What I am? Paramahaṁsa: They have some completely illogical argument. Just like those people in . . . Prabhupāda: Unfortunate. Illogical argument means unfortunate. Rascals. Therefore we say plainly, "You are all rascals." That's all. You have no discrimination. Anyone who does not believe as He is, he's a rascal, that's all. He may be happy or sorry, you don't mind. You don't make compromise. At least I do not do. If you have no full faith in Kṛṣṇa, then you are a rascal, that's all, whatever you may be. The Dr. Patel does not like this, but he does not protest to me. As others say, he protests by them. It is a fact. We have no difficulty to understand Kṛṣṇa and thus make our life successful. But we unnecessarily bring arguments, impediments to understand Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are unfortunate, envious of Kṛṣṇa. Trivikrama: Envious. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Paramahaṁsa: They say that . . . they become very agitated when we stress so much, in Bhagavad*-gītā , that Kṛṣṇa is God. Prabhupāda: That means envious, envious. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, envious. They say: "Why is it so . . .? Why do you stress . . .?" Prabhupāda: Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . Find out. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān . Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: Ajasram yoniṣu . Paramahaṁsa: "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life." Prabhupāda: All of them are going to Russia to take birth. Yes. Not Russian people are bad. That is a mistake. Some of them. Some people are good. That I have experienced. Otherwise how . . . (aside) Don't do that. Otherwise how that Anatole came to become my . . .? And there are many like that, mostly like him. It is by artificial suppression that it has been advertised, "The Russian people are all Communist." That's not fact. That's not fact. Simply some rogues and thieves and demons, by threats . . . it is a country of, what is called? Terrorism. A terror. People have decided to leave this country, but they cannot leave. Mostly Russians, they want to leave that country, and some of them already done so. Many Russians have fled away. Many Chinese men have fled away. They don't like this philosophy. Paramahaṁsa: Also the East Europe countries, Eastern Europe countries. Prabhupāda: Many countries. It is unnatural to deny God. It is unnatural. This is also Kṛṣṇa's another magic. All such people who had any doubt about Kṛṣṇa, they have been kept over there in Russia. Just like the other day there was a train crash accident. So all these rascals, they are brought together in that way in a train or two train, and they smashed. That is . . . just like Kṛṣṇa did in Battle of Kurukṣetra. All the rascals were brought into the battlefield and finished. Therefore Kṛṣṇa . . . (break) (end) Conversation -- June 11, 1975, Honolulu (Talk During Massage) *Siddha*-svarūpa: At a lot of the universities in the United States, they have what is called Free University. It's a part of the college, and, like, almost anybody can give classes there, and it's open to the entire student body. Prabhupada: . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, right. Prabhupada: You have studied Judah's book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, I have. *Prabhupada: And he has got letter that, "I realize that you have converted these drug*-addicted hippies to be servant of Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is their appreciation. And that is a fact. They are surprised that these drug-addicted, most fallen boys, they have given up everything and now they are pure devotees. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, it isn't surprising . . . *Prabhupada: No, any sane man will think. There are so many svāmīs, yogīs coming. They cannot do anything. They remain the same, drug*-addicted. Either Guru-ji Maharaj or this or that, Maharishi Yogi. They remain the same rascals. Do they change? That they are observing. That is the wonderful thing. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is fully surrendered, "I have got everything . . ." Then he becomes all-perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair guṇais , all good qualities. Otherwise, what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? He becomes the perfect. And without any greed. All greed is finished. He is satisfied in Kṛṣṇa. He becomes happy. And so long he is . . . now he is satisfied to jump like monkey—from this platform, that platform, all temporary, unhappy. Here is your love: jumping. So try to administer this. Especially in your country . . . (indistinct) . . . and you will remain happy. Otherwise, simply the running car and skyscraper will not make you happy. I think you are already realizing. Govinda dāsī: Our parents were raised in the farms. Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Our parents, most of our parents, were raised in the farms or their parents were raised in farming. And then their children went to the city, and all the buildings, and many people went to the city, and now their children are going back into the farms. So they’re trying the other way. It's going back into that direction. *Prabhupada: The farmers' children, they are leaving their farms. I have seen. In New Vrindaban, the farmers' children are not following. The father is working, and the boy has gone for education in the city, never to come back. Just like our Indian boys, they come here and they do not go back home. Material facilities they find more attractive. All varieties of vegetables, fresh fruit. In India still they have got many farm like that. I went with my father when I was about twelve years, thirteen years old, a remote family in the village. From the railway station it was twenty*-four miles each way, and we had to go there. In those days there was no bus; *this bullock cart. And I stayed there three, four days. The fresh vegetables, and ghee, nice rice, nice puffed rice, molasses. They gave me for breakfast this puffed rice mixed with molasses and cream. And then first*-class rice, ḍāl , vegetables, ghee, cow's ghee, milk. And everything will be within the reach. You haven’t got to go to the store. The rice is there, ḍāl is there, the vegetables, in the garden, the milk is there, the ghee. Remote village, and they are independent. My father was doing cloth business, he was customer. They bring cloth. Formerly the cloth was also being manufactured in the village. And in Bengal, the system was that four, five men dig a big lake, and with the mud they prepare their house. Mud walls, that's good as brick. It is not fired. Raw. That is very good. So you get water by digging the lake, and all around there are cottages. And little farther you have got your land, grow your food. Those who are fish eaters, they are keeping fish farm. Everything fresh. No one had to go to the city. Nowadays, this city capitalist, they sold their market, and he will get five hundred dollars. He thought that, "We are not . . . money is very scarce in the village. Let us go to the city and spend." You get five hundred dollars but you have to spend eight hundred dollars. Then he will learn how to drink, how to go to cinema, how to go to restaurant, how to go to club. Then gambling. All good things. *Siddha*-svarūpa: You don’t think that it will be difficult, then, to convince people to move back to the farms once they learn that it is the right thing to do? Because everyone has been taught that the right thing to do is to, in America, is to live in the cities and make money and this and that. They don’t know . . . Prabhupada: You . . . our people should show example, just like we are trying to do in New Vrindaban, that you grow your food, and . . . (indistinct) . . . milk, weave your cloth. And little school, and chant. Govinda dāsī: This philosophy is going on here in Hawaii. I mean, there are many . . . not just devotees; there are many other people . . . Prabhupada: This is peaceful. Unless one is peaceful, how it is possible to awaken Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So peacefulness means you require eating, sleeping, mating, defending. So adjust it in such way and save time. We are not denying these things—these are necessities—but in a organized, planned way. That we are doing. When the attraction is Kṛṣṇa . . . otherwise he will be attracted by the city. So, it is all in your hands. So village to village, organize this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don’t want to stop this material activity. That is not our goal. But if people remain satisfied in country life, sustained living, that will be better for them. But the government does not like village independence. The leaders? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, they promote city life. I think that they consider city life to be more money-making. They make more money for themselves. *Prabhupada: Money*-making for the big capitalists. Ambarīṣa: More or less they’ve polluted the agricultural way too by agribusiness, it's called now. The businessman in the city owns the land, and it's made into business. It's not simple village life anymore. Prabhupada: No. Just like we saw the other land, they are growing huge quantity of sugar cane. That is business. Instead of producing food for the residents of the land, they are producing sugar cane to export. That is business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's like here in Hawaii, the Dole Pineapple Company, they produce so much pineapple they’ve utilized almost all year all the land in Hawaii . . . Prabhupada: That is trade. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . and they overproduce every year, and then they . . . so much of it rots. So much of it is wasted. Prabhupada: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They can’t sell it. Prabhupada: And vegetables they are bringing from the mainland. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupada: Just see. Govinda dāsī: They grow nothing but pineapple, sugar cane and beef, cows for eating, and they import the vegetables from the mainland. It's insane. Prabhupada: So the pineapple they export abroad? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, they'll export some of it, but they can’t export the entire crop, so a lot of it just rots in the fields. Prabhupada: Oh, it is a waste. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, it is a waste. Prabhupada: So if, I think, they will give it to the cows, it can be utilized. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cows can eat pineapple? Prabhupada: They will eat anything. There is no question of wasting. That if we give the fruits, grains, you take the best part, and the refuse part you give to the animals. Any fruit you take, the skin and other things you give to the cows, they will eat. Grains, you take the inner part; the substandard skin you give them, they will eat. There is no expenditure for maintaining cows. And in exchange, they are giving you milk. No expenditure for you, and you . . . they are not drinking the milk, it is for you. She is giving milk, "So give me a little shelter. There is no expenditure for you. I will eat from the field, and whatever refuse you don't take, you give me. I will give you fresh milk. Don’t cut my throat." A rascal civilization. And they want peace. They don’t want atom bomb. They don’t want war. Nonsense. You must be killed every moment. So these sinful activities are accumulated, then war is declared—finished, whole civilization. This is going on. All these big wars are started in the Western countries. They are so sinful. Bomb. "Rrr. You have created your H bomb, your atom bomb." Men, money and assets, everything finished, again . . . this is going on. *Siddha*-svarūpa: People in America, they are under the illusion that there can never be a war on the mainland. Prabhupada: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: People in America are under the illusion that there will never be a war on the mainland of America, because there never has been . . . Prabhupada: They are believing in so many things. Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard that you have said there will be a war soon. Prabhupada: Now, how this atom bomb will be used unless there is war? They have . . . everyone has stock of atom bomb. So why these atom bombs are there? *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's so many of them, too. Prabhupada: It must be utilized for war. There must be war. There must be war. Govinda dāsī: Won’t this be an impediment to the preaching work? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Won’t this be an . . . Prabhupada: The Russia and America is prepared to fight at any moment. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This would destroy the cities. Prabhupada: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They would destroy the cities. Prabhupada: And all rogues are ready. China, Russia, America especially. And all other small countries. Just like in every war. India has nothing to do with these Western countries, and these rascals, Britishers, they involved India also, British Empire. Unless they involve India, they cannot utilize Indian soldiers. And they won victory only for Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldiers. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Does the Indian government want war? Prabhupada: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They do? Prabhupada: Yes. Indian government, that was British government, British government. They implicated. And in the peace conference, one Indian, S. P. Sinha, made him Lord. The Britishers bribed him, made him Lord. And he spoke to the peace conference, "Yes, India wants the Britishers' help to develop." Because there the question was why Britishers were in, occupying India. And because the real cause of war, Germany. The Germany, they wanted to trade with India and other parts of the world, and the British Empire will not allow them. As soon as German goods are there, they will charge fifty percent customs. And the same thing they will take from Germany and Japan and stamp it "Made in England." And they have made . . . because India was in their hands, they made propaganda, anything, any damn thing made in England is first class. So Germans saw that "Our goods, this rascal shopkeeper nation, they are purchasing and stamping "Made in England," and we cannot sell our goods. This is the cause of war. "Finish these rascals." That was the cause. And they finished. (snaps fingers) Although Germans themselves became finished, but they finished the Britishers. That's a fact. They finished. After this war, Britishers were finished. They lost India. They were finished. Their determination was . . . (indistinct) . . . biggest haters of these Britishers are the Germans. They do not like to speak in English. Do you know that? Govinda dāsī: No. Prabhupada: The German people . . . this I am . . . (indistinct) . . . the late Kaiser, he was grandson of Queen Victoria. His mother the daughter of Queen Victoria. So they are relative. So when he was a boy he was in England . . . (indistinct) . . . somehow or other he cut his finger . . . (break) . . . and the lame man gives his direction, "Go this way," then both of them will be finished. So Indian culture and American money, if it is combined, the whole world will be changed. Andha . . . Ambarīṣa: Such a good proposal. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: It's such a good proposal. *Prabhupada: Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . This is Sanskrit. It is called Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Paṅgu means lame; andha means blind. The logic of blind and lame. Very good example. Yes. Ambarīṣa: First the Americans will have to see how they are blind. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: First the Americans . . . Prabhupada: Yes, they are blind with wealth. Ambarīṣa: Hmm. *Prabhupada: Dhana*-durmadāndha . As soon as you become very rich, you become blind; *you don’t care for anything. This is blind. That is described, Dhana*-durmadāndha. Dhana means riches. When a man gets too much wealth, he becomes blind. Puffed up . . . (indistinct) . . . so that is natural. As soon as you get enough money, you become blind. Therefore, to possess very large amount of money is an hindrance to spiritual advancement. The rich man thinks that, "What is this nonsense? These poor men, they have no money so they have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He thinks, "Ah, we don’t have to chant. We have got enough. These people have no food, no shelter; they have to chant." This is blind. The Hare Kṛṣṇa is required for everyone, that they do not understand. They think it is required for the poor man. They have no other business, and they are chanting in the street. That's all. Do they not think that? Ambarīṣa: They are thinking that chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is for material benefit. Prabhupada: (laughing) Yes. They have taken a . . . (indistinct) . . . and begging form us. Therefore they are blind. They do not know. That is Professor Judah's book, that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is so much misunderstood. He has taken the labor of presenting his book so that any sane man will understand what is the importance of this movement. He is good man. Out of his good feeling that such a nice movement is being misunderstood, so he has attempted to drive away that misconception about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That is very good service. And he will be benefited, he has done such service. Now it is in your hands. I am now old man, at any moment. You, you take it seriously. There are books, and push it. People will be happy. Plain living and spiritual advancement, they do not understand. They do not know there is anything as spiritual advancement. Ambarīṣa: No, they don’t . . . Prabhupada: Yes. Ambarīṣa: . . . realize what spirit is. Prabhupada: Yes. "What is this nonsense spiritual life?" They think like that. Ambarīṣa: And yet they are . . . many people who are so materially advanced, they are so unhappy. Prabhupada: No, they will say: "We will make solution for the (inaudible). Just we are trying." They are trying, trying, trying, trying, (laughing) trying, trying. Ambarīṣa: And they blame others for their unhappiness. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: They blame others for their unhappiness. Prabhupada: What is that? Ambarīṣa: Like where I live, someone . . . like say a woman is unhappy in her life, you know, she would blame her husband, "Oh, it is your fault that I am unhappy. I have all this, but you do not give me love," and so forth. Prabhupada: That is everywhere, husbands, wives quarreling. That is not . . . the husband is thinking, "The wife is the cause of my unhappiness," and wife is thinking that "My husband is the cause of my unhappiness." Govinda dāsī: My unhappiness? Prabhupada: They are, on the whole, both of them unhappy. Cause may be different, but the both of them unhappy, that's a fact. And when there is unhappiness, that is I accuse you, you accuse me. But it is a fact, both are unhappy. That they do not know. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam . (break) "Why you are unhappy? Let us live peacefully." That also you will not be allowed. You have to give up that position, because you have to of tried. If you make compromise, "All right, let us . . . it is little inconvenient; let us compromise and live peacefully." But you cannot live even. You have to die . . . (break) . . . at any moment. No better food—or stale meat and frozen vegetables, all rotten. And then wine, just like asuric , this is their food. They have to live like that. And they are going on thinking this is civilization. This is māyā . Govinda dāsī: It seems they’re forced. *Prabhupada: They must work in that way because they are neglecting Kṛṣṇa. Māyā . will go on kicking like anything, and they will think it is happiness. This is called illusion. Māyā is kicking, that, "You rascal, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. I will punish you every moment." That is going on. And he is thinking, "I am happy." This is called māyā . He is not come to the senses that, "Here I can not be happy. Best thing is finish this material business, go back to home." That is intelligence. That is intelligence. They are not intelligent. They have no common sense, because they cannot understand transmigration of the soul. So dull*-headed. That Professor Stillson Judah has understood the importance of the movement, that he said that "Your, the movement is so exalted that you have brought the drug-addicted hippies to this platform of serving Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." Now people are realizing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so exalted that if one is actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he will know that, "I don’t require anything." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ yasmin sthito . . . guruṇāpi vicālyate (BG 6.22). If one is situated strongly on the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then even in the severest type of material miserable condition, he will not forget Kṛṣṇa. Tolerant. He will not hesitate. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He will stand fixed-up, "Yes, I don’t forget Kṛṣṇa." That is the fact, that here you cannot make any solution of any problem. You simply create problems. That you will do very easily. But to make a solution, that is not good. Your so-called civilization, science and advancement will simply create problems, and you will suffer. *That is their defect. They cannot understand that, "We are simply creating problems in the name of advancement." Our Siddha*-svarūpa was telling that the Hawaiians, they don’t want this American life of material happiness. They don't want. And they are being forced to accept this type of civilization, and they will realize. They want open field, agriculture. They welcome, a simple host, and their civilization, their mode of life has been killed by these Americans. They are very unhappy, but they are powerless. They do not like this. Nobody likes. I also personally do not like it. I come for preaching, not for enjoyment. But I do not like this very much. And this is not happiness, what is happening here. Everything. They do not get fresh food. First thing is eating. Everybody is eating all stale, tasteless, rotten, decomposed. You cannot get anything fresh. You cannot. But this stale food, keeping in the refrigerator for three hundred years, they like it. How they have become a downtrodden or fallen, even in their taste! Leftover, they keep it in the refrigerator, and after one week they can eat. Govinda dāsī: Chinese food. Prabhupada: Less than the animals. *(long pause) Which is very good, making material advancement, that's all right, but why should you not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is a good certificate we have got from some very authoritative person, that we are turning these drug*-addicted hippies into the servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity. Is it not a good certificate? Govinda dāsī: Yes. It's true. Prabhupada: Huh? And that's the fact. Govinda dāsī: We were all hippies. *Prabhupada: This is the fact. (laughs) And I came to America for this purpose. Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. Hari-nāme uddhārilo , simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivered all sinful men, suffering humanity. Is it? What is the evidence? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi . Just see, Jagāi and Mādhāi was drunkard. So I thought, "Why one Jagāi and Mādhāi? Why not hundreds and thousands of them, if hari-nāma has got so much power?" So actually it has done so. Now you also take it very seriously. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo . You understand Bengali? Govinda dāsī: No, sorry. Maybe next time. *Prabhupada: Papi means sinful, and tapi means suffering. So these two classes of men are there all over the world: sinful and suffering. As soon as one becomes sinful, he will suffer. So all these sinful and suffering beings were delivered simply by the method of saṅkīrtana: hari*-nāme uddhārilo. Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi . They would actually see Jagāi and Mādhāi, what they were and what they have become. Try to administer this. So the first house, what is that place, Kaiva? Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava? Prabhupada: Ka’ava. Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava. Where the rats were running? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Yes, that was Ka’ava. That was the first house. That house is no longer there. They have bulldozed and made apartment buildings. Prabhupada: Oh. That was improvement. You have been there? Ambarīṣa: No. Prabhupada: Sudāmā. Sudāmā, Kārttikeya and . . . what was his name? . . . (indistinct) . . . (long pause) Your tulasī plant began from there, eh? *Govinda dāsī: No, it began from McKinley Street, the other house where the temple was, where you installed the Pañca*-tattva deities. Prabhupada: No, you tried there also. Govinda dāsī: I don’t remember. I was thinking of . . . Prabhupada: You planted. Govinda dāsī: I was thinking of it. I can’t remember. I got the seeds from a lady once, but they did not . . . they didn’t grow. I got some seeds that didn’t grow. Now they’re everywhere. Ambarīṣa: On the other islands, too? Govinda dāsī: Oh, yeah. Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: They’re everywhere now. Prabhupada: Yes. *Govinda dāsī: I went to the North Shore just recently to the hut where Siddha*-svarūpa used to hold meetings, and there in the backyard I saw a huge tulasī plant, Kṛṣṇa tulasī , as big . . . Prabhupada: I saw in . . . what is that island? Govinda dāsī: Hawaii. Prabhupada: No, no. After Australia. Ambarīṣa: New Zealand? Prabhupada: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Fiji? Prabhupada: Fiji. Fiji. Govinda dāsī: On Fiji. Prabhupada: There also, they have got. The gentleman whose house I stayed, Mr. Punja. There were not so many, but one or two, very nice. Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard there are many Indians in Fiji. Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard there are many Indians in Fiji, many Indian people. Prabhupada: Yes. Almost there is majority Indians. And they are very wealthy. Fiji is very nice island, and it has got very, very good potency for spreading. Where have . . . where we have our temple. (long pause) Almost like Hawaii. That Perth . . . Parth or Perth, Australia? What is that? Govinda dāsī: Perth? Is it Perth? Prabhupada: Perth? Ambarīṣa: On the western side of Australia? Prabhupada: Yes. Ambarīṣa: The desert, like. As you come from India, you land at the first place? Prabhupada: Perth. Ambarīṣa: Perth, yes. Prabhupada: Although it is desert, it is not bad. There are many trees also. Where I was staying, that is full of trees. But it is warm. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupada: Many birds in the trees where I am staying. We have got now a very nice temple in Melbourne. First class. Govinda dāsī: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa is . . .? Prabhupada: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: Is it Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Ambarīṣa: No. *Prabhupada: No. Madhudviṣa. He has just organized. So Nitai Gaura. Gaura*-Nitāi, we can establish many temples, and simply chanting the holy name and dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair (SB 11.5.32): chant, dance and distribute prasāda . You don’t require even education. Simply before the Lord Nityānanda and Gaura, simply chant and dance. You will become the first-class advanced spiritual. It is so easy. Even if you are illiterate, you cannot read, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance. That's all. Is it very difficult? (laughs) Everyone does it automatically. Even the child, you have seen how the small child takes part. He enjoys. He was not taught to stand and . . . every children. What is their education? What is their spiritual education? They are offering flower. So nice movement. Even dogs take part, I have seen many times. They like the saṅkīrtana . That is a fact. The dogs also circling, and if anyone attemps to dance, " Kaa-kaa . . ." Govinda dāsī: I remember there was one dog in Ka’ava that was very fond of you. Each morning whenever you took your walk, there was one big dog, he would come. Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Do you remember? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: That dog disappeared soon after you left. Prabhupada: Ācchā ? Govinda dāsī: He disappeared. And do you remember that one cat that used to run under your feet as you took your walk in the morning, that little cat that we had there? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And you were always making fun that . . . actually, I didn’t want it, but it had come there, you know. It died the night after you left. (laughs) So I think they took some better body. Prabhupada: And the dog disappeared? Govinda dāsī: The lady said her dog disappeared. She was crying, had a reward out. She was upset. Prabhupada: Oh, she was accusing us? Govinda dāsī: No, she wasn’t accusing us, it just disappeared. Maybe stolen, maybe ran away. It just disappeared, yes. The cat also. So I guess everyone is benefiting. Prabhupada: If it appeals to the small child, it appeals to the animals. Because the animal life and child life . . . there is no difference. They are the same. So we can understand, if it appeals to the child, small child, then it appeals to the animal also. That means all living entities, never mind he is animal, man or . . . Govinda dāsī: Until they are educated the wrong way. *Prabhupada: Yes. That education, modern education, means to finish their brain. To make him more and more illiterate. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, jaḍa*-vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava . This education is the expansion of māyā . How it helps us? There is no question of help. It binds you more and more in material life. You are already illusioned, and it will create more illusion, so that you will be bound up with the material life. Anitya saṁsāre moha jīvake karaye gāḍha . And if we say that "By this education you are becoming more and more like an ass," they will be very much angry. (long pause) Before Lord Caitanya, Nityānanda, if one simply chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, his life . . . he has nothing to do. So easy thing. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti , he becomes the best brain. Su-medhasaḥ : his brain becomes clear from all hodge podge things. Everything is on the brain. Madman means on the brain. If the brain is cleansed, then where is the possibility of becoming madman? All these materialistic men, more or less, they are all mad, crazy, more or less. (long pause) Govinda dāsī: Have you heard anything from Gaurasundara? Has he written you? Prabhupada: No. Govinda dāsī: He told me he wrote you one letter. Prabhupada: When? Govinda dāsī: Since the last time you came. Prabhupada: No. Govinda dāsī: You didn’t receive. I remember you wrote him a letter and asked him to come? Prabhupada: Yes, that . . . Govinda dāsī: He said that he received it the day after you left. And then he said he wrote you a letter. You didn’t receive? Prabhupada: No, I did not receive it. Call Paramahaṁsa. Where is Paramahaṁsa? Govinda dāsī: Paramahaṁsa? (pause as Govinda dāsī goes to call Paramahaṁsa) I don’t understand Gaurasundara's philosophy. It's changing all the time, and it's all . . . (indistinct) Prabhupada: That I have told, they will simply change. They will never keep it. Govinda dāsī: It's always changing. He says so many contradictory things, I’m just bewildered. I can't pinpoint what . . . you know. I know that most philosophies you can figure out what . . . Prabhupada: He is not philosopher, he is crazy. Govinda dāsī: Yes, that's what I mean. Yes. You received my letter? The one . . . Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You received that letter I wrote you? Prabhupada: Yes, I received something. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupada: Another letter? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupada: Did you receive any letter from Gaurasundara? Paramahaṁsa: No. He wrote recently? Govinda dāsī: He wrote since the last time, you wrote that letter to him on the Big Island? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, the invitation. Govinda dāsī: He answered it. He said that he answered it. Paramahaṁsa: Really? Where did he answer it to? Here? Govinda dāsī: I don’t know. I’ll ask him, but he said he did answer it. He said he wrote you a letter. Maybe he just told me that to pacify me. Prabhupada: If he wants to speak with me, he can write a letter and you can bring it when you go. Or you can post. Why the letter will not come if he has posted? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, it would’ve come. Prabhupada: Nobody intercepted. Paramahaṁsa: Especially if he sent it here it would have easily come, because they would know where we were. Manasvī is in contact. Prabhupada: We are getting a very nice place in Hyderabad. Govinda dāsī: Allahabad? Prabhupada: Hyderabad, where we were working. Govinda dāsī: Hyderabad. Prabhupada: Hyderabad it is midland, Madhya Pradesh. Central India. Almost central. Paramahaṁsa: South central. Prabhupada: South central. So, six hundred acres there. We are going to develop a farm. Very nice climate, warm. India, everywhere warm. Severe cold, northern India. Paramahaṁsa: Some, yeah. Prabhupada: Otherwise, especially in Bengal, there is never. It is neither very hot. Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupada: Bombay also. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupada: In Bombay we have got huge property. It is worth now one crore rupees. And everyone is envious that we have got such a big property, and we have paid practically no price. They are envious. They are trying to harass us in so many ways. They . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone, they are envious how we got this nice property. Double like this, double . . . (indistinct) . . . this is two acres? Ambarīṣa: Yeah, two acres. Prabhupada: That is five acres, and all beautiful coconut tree, banana tree. Six buildings. Bombay, to get one apartment you require one lakh of rupees, and we have got six buildings. So the old tenants, they will not go, so I have construction of eight buildings, another big, big flat, so we can have more than five hundred devotees without any difficulty. I have got so many so much. Besides that, we are constructing other building. If you can develop your people, it will be source of very good income. (pause) That's all. Paramahaṁsa: That's all? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupada: Bombay we have got very nice place, Māyāpur very nice place. You have seen Māyāpur? Ambarīṣa: No. I've just come back. Prabhupada: In Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana, our building is the tallest. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (aside) It's okay? Prabhupada: Ah. The governor stayed two days. Now perhaps we are going to have another good place, Kurukṣetra. Govinda dāsī: Kurukṣetra? *Prabhupada: Where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken, personally. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). This is the first word of Bhagavad-gītā . That Kurukṣetra. (end) Conversation -- June 11, 1975, Honolulu (Talk During Massage) *Siddha*-svarūpa: At a lot of the universities in the United States, they have what is called Free University. It's a part of the college, and, like, almost anybody can give classes there, and it's open to the entire student body. Prabhupada: . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, right. Prabhupada: You have studied Judah's book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, I have. *Prabhupada: And he has got letter that, "I realize that you have converted these drug*-addicted hippies to be servant of Kṛṣṇa and . . . (indistinct) . . ." That is their appreciation. And that is a fact. They are surprised that these drug-addicted, most fallen boys, they have given up everything and now they are pure devotees. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, it isn't surprising . . . *Prabhupada: No, any sane man will think. There are so many svāmīs, yogīs coming. They cannot do anything. They remain the same, drug*-addicted. Either Guru-ji Maharaj or this or that, Maharishi Yogi. They remain the same rascals. Do they change? That they are observing. That is the wonderful thing. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā ( SB 5.18.12). If one becomes perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is fully surrendered, "I have got everything . . ." Then he becomes all-perfect. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sarvair guṇais , all good qualities. Otherwise, what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? He becomes the perfect. And without any greed. All greed is finished. He is satisfied in Kṛṣṇa. He becomes happy. And so long he is . . . now he is satisfied to jump like monkey—from this platform, that platform, all temporary, unhappy. Here is your love: jumping. So try to administer this. Especially in your country . . . (indistinct) . . . and you will remain happy. Otherwise, simply the running car and skyscraper will not make you happy. I think you are already realizing. Govinda dāsī: Our parents were raised in the farms. Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Our parents, most of our parents, were raised in the farms or their parents were raised in farming. And then their children went to the city, and all the buildings, and many people went to the city, and now their children are going back into the farms. So they’re trying the other way. It's going back into that direction. *Prabhupada: The farmers' children, they are leaving their farms. I have seen. In New Vrindaban, the farmers' children are not following. The father is working, and the boy has gone for education in the city, never to come back. Just like our Indian boys, they come here and they do not go back home. Material facilities they find more attractive. All varieties of vegetables, fresh fruit. In India still they have got many farm like that. I went with my father when I was about twelve years, thirteen years old, a remote family in the village. From the railway station it was twenty*-four miles each way, and we had to go there. In those days there was no bus; *this bullock cart. And I stayed there three, four days. The fresh vegetables, and ghee, nice rice, nice puffed rice, molasses. They gave me for breakfast this puffed rice mixed with molasses and cream. And then first*-class rice, ḍāl , vegetables, ghee, cow's ghee, milk. And everything will be within the reach. You haven’t got to go to the store. The rice is there, ḍāl is there, the vegetables, in the garden, the milk is there, the ghee. Remote village, and they are independent. My father was doing cloth business, he was customer. They bring cloth. Formerly the cloth was also being manufactured in the village. And in Bengal, the system was that four, five men dig a big lake, and with the mud they prepare their house. Mud walls, that's good as brick. It is not fired. Raw. That is very good. So you get water by digging the lake, and all around there are cottages. And little farther you have got your land, grow your food. Those who are fish eaters, they are keeping fish farm. Everything fresh. No one had to go to the city. Nowadays, this city capitalist, they sold their market, and he will get five hundred dollars. He thought that, "We are not . . . money is very scarce in the village. Let us go to the city and spend." You get five hundred dollars but you have to spend eight hundred dollars. Then he will learn how to drink, how to go to cinema, how to go to restaurant, how to go to club. Then gambling. All good things. *Siddha*-svarūpa: You don’t think that it will be difficult, then, to convince people to move back to the farms once they learn that it is the right thing to do? Because everyone has been taught that the right thing to do is to, in America, is to live in the cities and make money and this and that. They don’t know . . . Prabhupada: You . . . our people should show example, just like we are trying to do in New Vrindaban, that you grow your food, and . . . (indistinct) . . . milk, weave your cloth. And little school, and chant. Govinda dāsī: This philosophy is going on here in Hawaii. I mean, there are many . . . not just devotees; there are many other people . . . Prabhupada: This is peaceful. Unless one is peaceful, how it is possible to awaken Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So peacefulness means you require eating, sleeping, mating, defending. So adjust it in such way and save time. We are not denying these things—these are necessities—but in a organized, planned way. That we are doing. When the attraction is Kṛṣṇa . . . otherwise he will be attracted by the city. So, it is all in your hands. So village to village, organize this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don’t want to stop this material activity. That is not our goal. But if people remain satisfied in country life, sustained living, that will be better for them. But the government does not like village independence. The leaders? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, they promote city life. I think that they consider city life to be more money-making. They make more money for themselves. *Prabhupada: Money*-making for the big capitalists. Ambarīṣa: More or less they’ve polluted the agricultural way too by agribusiness, it's called now. The businessman in the city owns the land, and it's made into business. It's not simple village life anymore. Prabhupada: No. Just like we saw the other land, they are growing huge quantity of sugar cane. That is business. Instead of producing food for the residents of the land, they are producing sugar cane to export. That is business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's like here in Hawaii, the Dole Pineapple Company, they produce so much pineapple they’ve utilized almost all year all the land in Hawaii . . . Prabhupada: That is trade. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . and they overproduce every year, and then they . . . so much of it rots. So much of it is wasted. Prabhupada: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They can’t sell it. Prabhupada: And vegetables they are bringing from the mainland. Govinda dāsī: Yes. Prabhupada: Just see. Govinda dāsī: They grow nothing but pineapple, sugar cane and beef, cows for eating, and they import the vegetables from the mainland. It's insane. Prabhupada: So the pineapple they export abroad? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, they'll export some of it, but they can’t export the entire crop, so a lot of it just rots in the fields. Prabhupada: Oh, it is a waste. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, it is a waste. Prabhupada: So if, I think, they will give it to the cows, it can be utilized. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cows can eat pineapple? Prabhupada: They will eat anything. There is no question of wasting. That if we give the fruits, grains, you take the best part, and the refuse part you give to the animals. Any fruit you take, the skin and other things you give to the cows, they will eat. Grains, you take the inner part; the substandard skin you give them, they will eat. There is no expenditure for maintaining cows. And in exchange, they are giving you milk. No expenditure for you, and you . . . they are not drinking the milk, it is for you. She is giving milk, "So give me a little shelter. There is no expenditure for you. I will eat from the field, and whatever refuse you don't take, you give me. I will give you fresh milk. Don’t cut my throat." A rascal civilization. And they want peace. They don’t want atom bomb. They don’t want war. Nonsense. You must be killed every moment. So these sinful activities are accumulated, then war is declared—finished, whole civilization. This is going on. All these big wars are started in the Western countries. They are so sinful. Bomb. "Rrr. You have created your H bomb, your atom bomb." Men, money and assets, everything finished, again . . . this is going on. *Siddha*-svarūpa: People in America, they are under the illusion that there can never be a war on the mainland. Prabhupada: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: People in America are under the illusion that there will never be a war on the mainland of America, because there never has been . . . Prabhupada: They are believing in so many things. Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard that you have said there will be a war soon. Prabhupada: Now, how this atom bomb will be used unless there is war? They have . . . everyone has stock of atom bomb. So why these atom bombs are there? *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's so many of them, too. Prabhupada: It must be utilized for war. There must be war. There must be war. Govinda dāsī: Won’t this be an impediment to the preaching work? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Won’t this be an . . . Prabhupada: The Russia and America is prepared to fight at any moment. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This would destroy the cities. Prabhupada: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They would destroy the cities. Prabhupada: And all rogues are ready. China, Russia, America especially. And all other small countries. Just like in every war. India has nothing to do with these Western countries, and these rascals, Britishers, they involved India also, British Empire. Unless they involve India, they cannot utilize Indian soldiers. And they won victory only for Indian soldiers, the Sikh soldiers. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Does the Indian government want war? Prabhupada: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They do? Prabhupada: Yes. Indian government, that was British government, British government. They implicated. And in the peace conference, one Indian, S. P. Sinha, made him Lord. The Britishers bribed him, made him Lord. And he spoke to the peace conference, "Yes, India wants the Britishers' help to develop." Because there the question was why Britishers were in, occupying India. And because the real cause of war, Germany. The Germany, they wanted to trade with India and other parts of the world, and the British Empire will not allow them. As soon as German goods are there, they will charge fifty percent customs. And the same thing they will take from Germany and Japan and stamp it "Made in England." And they have made . . . because India was in their hands, they made propaganda, anything, any damn thing made in England is first class. So Germans saw that "Our goods, this rascal shopkeeper nation, they are purchasing and stamping "Made in England," and we cannot sell our goods. This is the cause of war. "Finish these rascals." That was the cause. And they finished. (snaps fingers) Although Germans themselves became finished, but they finished the Britishers. That's a fact. They finished. After this war, Britishers were finished. They lost India. They were finished. Their determination was . . . (indistinct) . . . biggest haters of these Britishers are the Germans. They do not like to speak in English. Do you know that? Govinda dāsī: No. Prabhupada: The German people . . . this I am . . . (indistinct) . . . the late Kaiser, he was grandson of Queen Victoria. His mother the daughter of Queen Victoria. So they are relative. So when he was a boy he was in England . . . (indistinct) . . . somehow or other he cut his finger . . . (break) . . . and the lame man gives his direction, "Go this way," then both of them will be finished. So Indian culture and American money, if it is combined, the whole world will be changed. Andha . . . Ambarīṣa: Such a good proposal. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: It's such a good proposal. *Prabhupada: Andha*-paṅgu-nyāya . This is Sanskrit. It is called Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Paṅgu means lame; andha means blind. The logic of blind and lame. Very good example. Yes. Ambarīṣa: First the Americans will have to see how they are blind. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: First the Americans . . . Prabhupada: Yes, they are blind with wealth. Ambarīṣa: Hmm. *Prabhupada: Dhana*-durmadāndha . As soon as you become very rich, you become blind; *you don’t care for anything. This is blind. That is described, Dhana*-durmadāndha. Dhana means riches. When a man gets too much wealth, he becomes blind. Puffed up . . . (indistinct) . . . so that is natural. As soon as you get enough money, you become blind. Therefore, to possess very large amount of money is an hindrance to spiritual advancement. The rich man thinks that, "What is this nonsense? These poor men, they have no money so they have to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He thinks, "Ah, we don’t have to chant. We have got enough. These people have no food, no shelter; they have to chant." This is blind. The Hare Kṛṣṇa is required for everyone, that they do not understand. They think it is required for the poor man. They have no other business, and they are chanting in the street. That's all. Do they not think that? Ambarīṣa: They are thinking that chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is for material benefit. Prabhupada: (laughing) Yes. They have taken a . . . (indistinct) . . . and begging form us. Therefore they are blind. They do not know. That is Professor Judah's book, that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is so much misunderstood. He has taken the labor of presenting his book so that any sane man will understand what is the importance of this movement. He is good man. Out of his good feeling that such a nice movement is being misunderstood, so he has attempted to drive away that misconception about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That is very good service. And he will be benefited, he has done such service. Now it is in your hands. I am now old man, at any moment. You, you take it seriously. There are books, and push it. People will be happy. Plain living and spiritual advancement, they do not understand. They do not know there is anything as spiritual advancement. Ambarīṣa: No, they don’t . . . Prabhupada: Yes. Ambarīṣa: . . . realize what spirit is. Prabhupada: Yes. "What is this nonsense spiritual life?" They think like that. Ambarīṣa: And yet they are . . . many people who are so materially advanced, they are so unhappy. Prabhupada: No, they will say: "We will make solution for the (inaudible). Just we are trying." They are trying, trying, trying, trying, (laughing) trying, trying. Ambarīṣa: And they blame others for their unhappiness. Prabhupada: Huh? Ambarīṣa: They blame others for their unhappiness. Prabhupada: What is that? Ambarīṣa: Like where I live, someone . . . like say a woman is unhappy in her life, you know, she would blame her husband, "Oh, it is your fault that I am unhappy. I have all this, but you do not give me love," and so forth. Prabhupada: That is everywhere, husbands, wives quarreling. That is not . . . the husband is thinking, "The wife is the cause of my unhappiness," and wife is thinking that "My husband is the cause of my unhappiness." Govinda dāsī: My unhappiness? Prabhupada: They are, on the whole, both of them unhappy. Cause may be different, but the both of them unhappy, that's a fact. And when there is unhappiness, that is I accuse you, you accuse me. But it is a fact, both are unhappy. That they do not know. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam . (break) "Why you are unhappy? Let us live peacefully." That also you will not be allowed. You have to give up that position, because you have to of tried. If you make compromise, "All right, let us . . . it is little inconvenient; let us compromise and live peacefully." But you cannot live even. You have to die . . . (break) . . . at any moment. No better food—or stale meat and frozen vegetables, all rotten. And then wine, just like asuric , this is their food. They have to live like that. And they are going on thinking this is civilization. This is māyā . Govinda dāsī: It seems they’re forced. *Prabhupada: They must work in that way because they are neglecting Kṛṣṇa. Māyā . will go on kicking like anything, and they will think it is happiness. This is called illusion. Māyā is kicking, that, "You rascal, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. I will punish you every moment." That is going on. And he is thinking, "I am happy." This is called māyā . He is not come to the senses that, "Here I can not be happy. Best thing is finish this material business, go back to home." That is intelligence. That is intelligence. They are not intelligent. They have no common sense, because they cannot understand transmigration of the soul. So dull*-headed. That Professor Stillson Judah has understood the importance of the movement, that he said that "Your, the movement is so exalted that you have brought the drug-addicted hippies to this platform of serving Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." Now people are realizing, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so exalted that if one is actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he will know that, "I don’t require anything." Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ yasmin sthito . . . guruṇāpi vicālyate (BG 6.22). If one is situated strongly on the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then even in the severest type of material miserable condition, he will not forget Kṛṣṇa. Tolerant. He will not hesitate. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He will stand fixed-up, "Yes, I don’t forget Kṛṣṇa." That is the fact, that here you cannot make any solution of any problem. You simply create problems. That you will do very easily. But to make a solution, that is not good. Your so-called civilization, science and advancement will simply create problems, and you will suffer. *That is their defect. They cannot understand that, "We are simply creating problems in the name of advancement." Our Siddha*-svarūpa was telling that the Hawaiians, they don’t want this American life of material happiness. They don't want. And they are being forced to accept this type of civilization, and they will realize. They want open field, agriculture. They welcome, a simple host, and their civilization, their mode of life has been killed by these Americans. They are very unhappy, but they are powerless. They do not like this. Nobody likes. I also personally do not like it. I come for preaching, not for enjoyment. But I do not like this very much. And this is not happiness, what is happening here. Everything. They do not get fresh food. First thing is eating. Everybody is eating all stale, tasteless, rotten, decomposed. You cannot get anything fresh. You cannot. But this stale food, keeping in the refrigerator for three hundred years, they like it. How they have become a downtrodden or fallen, even in their taste! Leftover, they keep it in the refrigerator, and after one week they can eat. Govinda dāsī: Chinese food. Prabhupada: Less than the animals. *(long pause) Which is very good, making material advancement, that's all right, but why should you not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is a good certificate we have got from some very authoritative person, that we are turning these drug*-addicted hippies into the servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity. Is it not a good certificate? Govinda dāsī: Yes. It's true. Prabhupada: Huh? And that's the fact. Govinda dāsī: We were all hippies. *Prabhupada: This is the fact. (laughs) And I came to America for this purpose. Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. Hari-nāme uddhārilo , simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra , Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivered all sinful men, suffering humanity. Is it? What is the evidence? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi . Just see, Jagāi and Mādhāi was drunkard. So I thought, "Why one Jagāi and Mādhāi? Why not hundreds and thousands of them, if hari-nāma has got so much power?" So actually it has done so. Now you also take it very seriously. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo . You understand Bengali? Govinda dāsī: No, sorry. Maybe next time. *Prabhupada: Papi means sinful, and tapi means suffering. So these two classes of men are there all over the world: sinful and suffering. As soon as one becomes sinful, he will suffer. So all these sinful and suffering beings were delivered simply by the method of saṅkīrtana: hari*-nāme uddhārilo. Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi . They would actually see Jagāi and Mādhāi, what they were and what they have become. Try to administer this. So the first house, what is that place, Kaiva? Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava? Prabhupada: Ka’ava. Govinda dāsī: Ka’ava. Where the rats were running? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Yes, that was Ka’ava. That was the first house. That house is no longer there. They have bulldozed and made apartment buildings. Prabhupada: Oh. That was improvement. You have been there? Ambarīṣa: No. Prabhupada: Sudāmā. Sudāmā, Kārttikeya and . . . what was his name? . . . (indistinct) . . . (long pause) Your tulasī plant began from there, eh? *Govinda dāsī: No, it began from McKinley Street, the other house where the temple was, where you installed the Pañca*-tattva deities. Prabhupada: No, you tried there also. Govinda dāsī: I don’t remember. I was thinking of . . . Prabhupada: You planted. Govinda dāsī: I was thinking of it. I can’t remember. I got the seeds from a lady once, but they did not . . . they didn’t grow. I got some seeds that didn’t grow. Now they’re everywhere. Ambarīṣa: On the other islands, too? Govinda dāsī: Oh, yeah. Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: They’re everywhere now. Prabhupada: Yes. *Govinda dāsī: I went to the North Shore just recently to the hut where Siddha*-svarūpa used to hold meetings, and there in the backyard I saw a huge tulasī plant, Kṛṣṇa tulasī , as big . . . Prabhupada: I saw in . . . what is that island? Govinda dāsī: Hawaii. Prabhupada: No, no. After Australia. Ambarīṣa: New Zealand? Prabhupada: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Fiji? Prabhupada: Fiji. Fiji. Govinda dāsī: On Fiji. Prabhupada: There also, they have got. The gentleman whose house I stayed, Mr. Punja. There were not so many, but one or two, very nice. Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard there are many Indians in Fiji. Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: I’ve heard there are many Indians in Fiji, many Indian people. Prabhupada: Yes. Almost there is majority Indians. And they are very wealthy. Fiji is very nice island, and it has got very, very good potency for spreading. Where have . . . where we have our temple. (long pause) Almost like Hawaii. That Perth . . . Parth or Perth, Australia? What is that? Govinda dāsī: Perth? Is it Perth? Prabhupada: Perth? Ambarīṣa: On the western side of Australia? Prabhupada: Yes. Ambarīṣa: The desert, like. As you come from India, you land at the first place? Prabhupada: Perth. Ambarīṣa: Perth, yes. Prabhupada: Although it is desert, it is not bad. There are many trees also. Where I was staying, that is full of trees. But it is warm. Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupada: Many birds in the trees where I am staying. We have got now a very nice temple in Melbourne. First class. Govinda dāsī: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupada: Huh? Govinda dāsī: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa is . . .? Prabhupada: Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dāsī: Is it Tuṣṭa Kṛṣṇa? Ambarīṣa: No. *Prabhupada: No. Madhudviṣa. He has just organized. So Nitai Gaura. Gaura*-Nitāi, we can establish many temples, and simply chanting the holy name and dancing . . . (indistinct) . . . Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair (SB 11.5.32): chant, dance and distribute prasāda . You don’t require even education. Simply before the Lord Nityānanda and Gaura, simply chant and dance. You will become the first-class advanced spiritual. It is so easy. Even if you are illiterate, you cannot read, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance. That's all. Is it very difficult? (laughs) Everyone does it automatically. Even the child, you have seen how the small child takes part. He enjoys. He was not taught to stand and . . . every children. What is their education? What is their spiritual education? They are offering flower. So nice movement. Even dogs take part, I have seen many times. They like the saṅkīrtana . That is a fact. The dogs also circling, and if anyone attemps to dance, " Kaa-kaa . . ." Govinda dāsī: I remember there was one dog in Ka’ava that was very fond of you. Each morning whenever you took your walk, there was one big dog, he would come. Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: Do you remember? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: That dog disappeared soon after you left. Prabhupada: Ācchā ? Govinda dāsī: He disappeared. And do you remember that one cat that used to run under your feet as you took your walk in the morning, that little cat that we had there? Prabhupada: Yes. Govinda dāsī: And you were always making fun that . . . actually, I didn’t want it, but it had come there, you know. It died the night after you left. (laughs) So I think they took some better body. Prabhupada: And the dog disappeared? Govinda dāsī: The lady said her dog disappeared. She was crying, had a reward out. She was upset. Prabhupada: Oh, she was accusing us? Govinda dāsī: No, she wasn’t accusing us, it just disappeared. Maybe stolen, maybe ran away. It just disappeared, yes. The cat also. So I guess everyone is benefiting. Prabhupada: If it appeals to the small child, it appeals to the animals. Because the animal life and child life . . . there is no difference. They are the same. So we can understand, if it appeals to the child, small child, then it appeals to the animal also. That means all living entities, never mind he is animal, man or . . . Govinda dāsī: Until they are educated the wrong way. *Prabhupada: Yes. That education, modern education, means to finish their brain. To make him more and more illiterate. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, jaḍa*-vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava . This education is the expansion of māyā . How it helps us? There is no question of help. It binds you more and more in material life. You are already illusioned, and it will create more illusion, so that you will be bound up with the material life. Anitya saṁsāre moha jīvake karaye gāḍha . And if we say that "By this education you are becoming more and more like an ass," they will be very much angry. (long pause) Before Lord Caitanya, Nityānanda, if one simply chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, his life . . . he has nothing to do. So easy thing. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti , he becomes the best brain. Su-medhasaḥ : his brain becomes clear from all hodge podge things. Everything is on the brain. Madman means on the brain. If the brain is cleansed, then where is the possibility of becoming madman? All these materialistic men, more or less, they are all mad, crazy, more or less. (long pause) Govinda dāsī: Have you heard anything from Gaurasundara? Has he written you? Prabhupada: No. Govinda dāsī: He told me he wrote you one letter. Prabhupada: When? Govinda dāsī: Since the last time you came. Prabhupada: No. Govinda dāsī: You didn’t receive. I remember you wrote him a letter and asked him to come? Prabhupada: Yes, that . . . Govinda dāsī: He said that he received it the day after you left. And then he said he wrote you a letter. You didn’t receive? Prabhupada: No, I did not receive it. Call Paramahaṁsa. Where is Paramahaṁsa? Govinda dāsī: Paramahaṁsa? (pause as Govinda dāsī goes to call Paramahaṁsa) I don’t understand Gaurasundara's philosophy. It's changing all the time, and it's all . . . (indistinct) Prabhupada: That I have told, they will simply change. They will never keep it. Govinda dāsī: It's always changing. He says so many contradictory things, I’m just bewildered. I can't pinpoint what . . . you know. I know that most philosophies you can figure out what . . . Prabhupada: He is not philosopher, he is crazy. Govinda dāsī: Yes, that's what I mean. Yes. You received my letter? The one . . . Prabhupada: Hmm? Govinda dāsī: You received that letter I wrote you? Prabhupada: Yes, I received something. Govinda dāsī: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupada: Another letter? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupada: Did you receive any letter from Gaurasundara? Paramahaṁsa: No. He wrote recently? Govinda dāsī: He wrote since the last time, you wrote that letter to him on the Big Island? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, the invitation. Govinda dāsī: He answered it. He said that he answered it. Paramahaṁsa: Really? Where did he answer it to? Here? Govinda dāsī: I don’t know. I’ll ask him, but he said he did answer it. He said he wrote you a letter. Maybe he just told me that to pacify me. Prabhupada: If he wants to speak with me, he can write a letter and you can bring it when you go. Or you can post. Why the letter will not come if he has posted? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, it would’ve come. Prabhupada: Nobody intercepted. Paramahaṁsa: Especially if he sent it here it would have easily come, because they would know where we were. Manasvī is in contact. Prabhupada: We are getting a very nice place in Hyderabad. Govinda dāsī: Allahabad? Prabhupada: Hyderabad, where we were working. Govinda dāsī: Hyderabad. Prabhupada: Hyderabad it is midland, Madhya Pradesh. Central India. Almost central. Paramahaṁsa: South central. Prabhupada: South central. So, six hundred acres there. We are going to develop a farm. Very nice climate, warm. India, everywhere warm. Severe cold, northern India. Paramahaṁsa: Some, yeah. Prabhupada: Otherwise, especially in Bengal, there is never. It is neither very hot. Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupada: Bombay also. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupada: In Bombay we have got huge property. It is worth now one crore rupees. And everyone is envious that we have got such a big property, and we have paid practically no price. They are envious. They are trying to harass us in so many ways. They . . . (indistinct) . . . everyone, they are envious how we got this nice property. Double like this, double . . . (indistinct) . . . this is two acres? Ambarīṣa: Yeah, two acres. Prabhupada: That is five acres, and all beautiful coconut tree, banana tree. Six buildings. Bombay, to get one apartment you require one lakh of rupees, and we have got six buildings. So the old tenants, they will not go, so I have construction of eight buildings, another big, big flat, so we can have more than five hundred devotees without any difficulty. I have got so many so much. Besides that, we are constructing other building. If you can develop your people, it will be source of very good income. (pause) That's all. Paramahaṁsa: That's all? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupada: Bombay we have got very nice place, Māyāpur very nice place. You have seen Māyāpur? Ambarīṣa: No. I've just come back. Prabhupada: In Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana, our building is the tallest. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (aside) It's okay? Prabhupada: Ah. The governor stayed two days. Now perhaps we are going to have another good place, Kurukṣetra. Govinda dāsī: Kurukṣetra? *Prabhupada: Where Bhagavad*-gītā was spoken, personally. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). This is the first word of Bhagavad-gītā . That Kurukṣetra. (end) Conversation -- June 12, 1975, Honolulu Prabhupāda: You giving this theory that from the tree a man and a monkey came. So, where is that experiment? Where is that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Sometimes it is seen that impersonalists, although they may be impersonalists, still they may not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They, it is sometimes found that impersonalists they don’t, they will not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They will not even mention. They wont even mention. Prabhupāda: Generally do. Govinda dasi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So, our relationship with you as spiritual master has existed eternally in the past, or will exist eternally? Prabhupāda: That don’t bother with it. Go on, do with minimum. (long pause) *Past and present, you are present, the commentary is just carry out the orders, that's all. When you have accepted spiritual master, carry out, that's all. cakhu*-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei . Past means that, then you admit to your disciple, that in the past you could not carry out, therefore accept another birth. So, carry out. That is the point. What is the use of talking past, present and future? ār nā koriho mane āśā . This is wanted. Don’t think of anything else. That is the point. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So, then if I’m worried about my past or my future . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, whatever is past is past. Now, I have got the knowledge, let me carry out. Cakhu*-dān , now I have got this real knowledge. What is the use of thinking of past ? In the past somebody was hippie was drinking. No, that world was past. Let me progress. Now let me do responsible thing. That is the point. Govinda dasi: Actually, I’m trying to understand the future of my misery. Prabhupāda: Oh, we do not think of future. If I work sincerely, then future is all right. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Bhaktivinode Thakura says . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . forget the past that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . sleeps, and the future ne’er . . . Prabhupāda: Why should we bother about the past? Past was not perfect. Therefore, I have got this, birth again . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the use of concocting? Whatever has passed has passed. Now let me be sincere. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And, and what is the basic reason for my concern for the future? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What would the . . .? Prabhupāda: For the future, let me do sincerely. Whatever future will be, that will be. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then I haven’t even . . .? Prabhupāda: If I do not go to Vaikuntha, doesn’t matter. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Still I shall carry out. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So I have to be free from all cares with my future . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . for myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. If, faith should be there, if I am working rightly, then my future will be, secure. That is future. I have taken to this path for going back to home, back to Godhead, so I am, if I am doing nicely, according to the instructions of . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he think of? And if I am not doing rightly, then . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called faith. Why should you bother about future? What is the reason? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I, I, I would bother about my future . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of bothering. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I mean, I care about my future when . . . Prabhupāda: If you care you do, just like Kṛṣṇa says: Past and future is explained there. Do this. Always chant, think of Me, that mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam , be assured you will come to Me. So why don’t you do your duty? And Kṛṣṇa assures, they will come to Me, there is no doubt . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he bother for the future? If you do exactly according to the rules and regulations, then your future is guaranteed. Even it is not guaranteed, still I shall go on doing. And that is pure. It is guaranteed. Kṛṣṇa said, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam , so why do you doubt? Why there should be doubt? Kṛṣṇa said it is guaranteed. Why should you bother about future? You, you bother whether you are doing rightly or not. That should be your business. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa assures. Were is doubt? Huh? The future is assured by Kṛṣṇa, and . . . why you are doubting? That you don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. You have to see whether you are doing rightly what Kṛṣṇa says. That is your business. What is the use of thinking past, future, present? Do your duty as Kṛṣṇa says, as spiritual master says, then everything is all right. There is no question or doubt. Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayam, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam means without a doubt you will come to Me. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So if I . . . Prabhupāda: And ours should be that, it is not a bargain, that Kṛṣṇa is assuring, therefore I will have to serve Kṛṣṇa. That even I will go to hell, it doesn’t matter. That is my duty. Kṛṣṇa is assuring, that is all right, but even, some reason or Kṛṣṇa doesn’t drive me, its still I shall do. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I don’t do that, it means imperfection in love then. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I’m still self-centered. Prabhupāda: That, that is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: Kṛṣṇa whatever you like . . . (indistinct) . . . still I cannot give up . . . (indistinct) . . . to make bargain with Kṛṣṇa, then you are not a pure devotee. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, the spiritual world is that dimension where that pure love exists. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no bargaining. Oh if Kṛṣṇa does it, then I shall do it. That is business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not love. Let Kṛṣṇa do whatever He likes. But Kṛṣṇa says no, if you do, then you are surely coming to Me. Then where is the doubt? Do sincerely whatever you are asked to do through the spiritual master, through Kṛṣṇa personally, that is your . . . what will be the result or not result, I don’t know. That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, even in the Bible it mentions that purity in one verse. There is the statement that we would rather be away from this body and at home with the Lord. We would rather be out of this body and at and at home with the Lord, but even if we are in this body, away from the Lord or at home with the Lord, our only ambition should be to please Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Whereas in the previous statement there was still a tinge of desire for liberation from pain, freedom from the body, then in the next statement he says, but our only ambition should be, whether at home or, or in the body or whatever, that our only ambition should be to please Him. Prabhupāda: That is in the bhāgavata also. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari*-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). The perfection is whether you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Either this body or that body, here or there, it doesn’t matter. Whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That you have to see. So if Kṛṣṇa is pleased through the spiritual master, so if spiritual master is pleased, Kṛṣṇa is pleased. Because he is confidential servant. If the servant says, yes this man is nice, then Kṛṣṇa will accept him. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then if my, my happiness, or my questioning should not be whether or not . . . Prabhupāda: You have to strictly carry out faithfully. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . the orders of Kṛṣṇa and spiritual master, without any consideration. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then that is perfection. And if you make your own idea, the spiritual master is not so intelligent, I am more than intelligent, I can do like this, then you are doomed. yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . As soon as we manufacture, concoct, then . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then the relationship isn’t one of trying to gain something from my spiritual master, and worrying that in the future I will be able to gain . . . Prabhupāda: He has given you already. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The gain is that now you carry out. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Simply a, a, a matter . . . Prabhupāda: Initiation means he has given this. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you carry out the order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then whether the relationship is eternal in my heart will be, depend upon whether or not I am desirous of pleasing him. Prabhupāda: That now you have got this relationship, that's all, eternal, not eternal. Why do you bother about this, all this? I have to do. This is my duty. That's all. Govinda dasi: I’m trying to ask this question because this is the question that I discussed with Goursundar, and that I was bewildered. Prabhupāda: Goursundar, what does he know? Govinda dasi: Enough to confuse me. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. Why should discuss with Goursundar? He is a perfect man? Then why should you discuss with him? He is a rascal. Govinda dasi: Because he was saying that my attitude is very, is . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dasi: . . . sentimental. Because he was telling me that, that my faith is a sentimental thing. I was trying to understand that from a philosophical point of view in order to defend it. *Prabhupāda: So, what philosophy does he know? Why should you ask Goursundar? What does he know? If he has little intelligence, then you would not have given up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has no intelligence. He is a rascal. Mūḍhāḥ . That is our conclusion. Anyone who is not fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhāḥ , he is duṣkṛtino , sinful, narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. This is our conclusion. That is the complaint of all other . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughing) We are, all of them we are taking them as mūḍhāḥ , rascal, narādhamāḥ , and they are posing themselves as very big important man in their society. And because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are accepting them as mūḍhāḥ . That is their concept. So they are all rejected by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is their complaint. They are trying to make a so*-called mutual present society. You are welcome. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are saying nobody is right except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So, that has become their concept. Everybody is a rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . that is their concern. This, preaching goes on, then . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Thank you. Govinda dasi: Thank you. (offers obeisances) Devotees: (Background exchange) Prabhupāda: Now, They are influenced by rubber tree. Govinda dasi: Wow. Prabhupāda: I have seen it. So many rubber trees. They have got rubber trees, extensive. This exploitation is forbidden in the *Īśopaniṣad*. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). So, all over the world, especially in the eastern world, the, oil in the beginning of the eastern world . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . or in, in the, in the eastern world, not in the western world. Where is that? They have made a line, international? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Oh, I don’t know where it begins. Some . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somewhere . . . (indistinct) . . . you get, crossing that line you will get one day advantage. So, anyway, this is the eastern part. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to America, mainland, it is western. This Hawaii and Japan, South Pacific, they are all eastern. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The, in Southeast Asia the . . . they are finding out that one of the main reasons the Americans wanted to stay in Vietnam was because there's the vast oil that is offshore from Vietnam. Right offshore in Vietnam there's vast oil reserves that the American oil companies had already spent, they had invested millions and millions of dollars in setting up oil rigs and they had to all leave. Not only oil, but different types of trees, and, what is the underground products, mining, different, different things that was there. That there were big companies that were involved, big American companies that were involved in trying to make . . . (indistinct) . . . even they wanted tourism. In the future, they are hoping to be able to have hotels in Vietnam, to exploit in that way. Prabhupāda: They make big, big hotels in the Philippines. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now they left. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Govinda dasi: So, the whole world is, is being pushed by big business then? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That the Vietnam war was primarily desired by the big corporations. They wanted Vietnam to exploit in that way. Also they made money simply from there being a war. If there was no war, they would be unemployed. That in America's . . . Prabhupāda: That means the American people in order to make money, war material, they engage their men to kill. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Otherwise there is no movement of the economy. Govinda dasi: They kill their sons for big business? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, the, the economy doesn’t move. It's like you have to have people working, so they, they, they, they have them producing something which is consumable, and there's nothing more consumable than a bomb or a helicopter, so that they produce thousands of helicopters and bombs. Just like now, they’re producing jets. Here's France, produces a particular kind of jet, and America produces a particular type of jet, and Belgium is going, needs to buy some jets, so the American producers, American companies and the French companies they are fighting, trying to convince the Belgians. There's somebody to buy our jet, and then the whole, there's a whole business trying to sell different war, war materials to all these other countries now. And they are hoping, of course the businessmen are hoping that they’ll use them up and buy new ones. So, they, they, they need to have small wars. Prabhupāda: So, you have seen the, the other, big island, they are producing sugar? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The same thing you have seen, in Fiji . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they do not require. First of all produce your own food. No. They are not interested. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hm. Prabhupāda: The capitalists, they take the land. They want the business, that unnecessary. Here also they are producing pineapple more than necessary. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Much more. Prabhupāda: They are wasting the land. People should be satisfied, first of all, producing his necessities, that they will produce, nothing more. Whatever they require. But if, as soon as a third party, capitalist, becomes interested, he will induce them to produce unnecessary things, and necessary things will stop. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Actually, this is a, this is a, it's being recognized. In fact, one congress, a congressman, I read, had an article and was asking, was actually saying that the entire western way of life is in jeopardy, that it is, it is a dangerous point, because our entire economic system is based upon the, the production and consumption of unnecessary objects. Prabhupāda: That's right. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They make some object, and then they make a commercial and tell them you want this, and the people they get it. Prabhupāda: Yes. And when he is induced, they offer them money, they requested that television, he shall have to pay. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Expense. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He doesn’t require, neither he has got money, so there is advertisement, television is very good, he is induced, and the bank says yes you can take money, so he becomes perpetual debtor. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That's right. Prabhupāda: So, he has to work. He cannot sit down. He has to go, so, so, so, so, so. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He has no choice. Prabhupāda: Where is freedom? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are speaking of freedom, ha. Prabhupāda: Simply exploit. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. They actually are saying that they want the freedom to exploit, and if there is a government where there is no freedom to exploit, they will be unhappy. They will not be able to enjoy life as much. Devotee (3): It's another way of keeping the people subjugated. (break) *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . matter. Devotee (3): There's a famous lady atheist, who, who makes her, who makes her business by defeating theists. She travels from place to place, and gives . . . Prabhupāda: Whether she will come here? Devotee (3): I’ve forgotten her name. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Madeline Murray. Govinda dasi: Madeline Murray. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Madeline Murray. Govinda dasi: She's a demon. *Siddha*-svarūpa: She, she's the one who pushed very strongly against prayer in school. Prabhupāda: So, why, why, why not come here and stop ours? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If she could, she probably would try to. Govinda dasi: She is mean. Prabhupāda: Then she will be trying for . . . that we are praying, so you come and stop our praying. by your reason and . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are inviting. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That would be a great meet, meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: She's, she must be really puffed up by now. Prabhupāda: But why she does not come to us, if she is traveling? *Siddha*-svarūpa: She's concerned mainly with Christianity. Her concern is Christianity. Prabhupāda: Her, her challenge is about God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . that somebody dares to convince that there is no God. Why not invite? Govinda dasi: She is very offensive. Prabhupāda: What is her philosophy? She has no book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Her philosophy, no, her philosophy is that there is no God, and that . . . Prabhupada: She has written any book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Probably. Govinda dasi: She's, I’ve never read any book, but I’ve read about her. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Probably she's written a book, and the idea, she simply, somehow or other by words defeats. Devotee (3): Her, her appearances, it becomes an art, that's all. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Devotee (2): But she uses foul language and . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, she's very gross. Govinda dasi: She's very gross. Devotee: Offensive, very offensive. Govinda dasi: Very offensive, just like, offensive to . . . Prabhupāda: So, why not defeat her? You are also philosopher. Devotee (2): D She's . . . Prabhupāda: You have learned so much. Defeat her. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (laughing) Like hit her over the head. Govinda dasi: (laughing) She's really, she's really a gross lady. She's, she curses and calls . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . what education you will give. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You call her. Come here. We shall talk with you. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is, this is the real business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. She, she's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Malati, yourself, Malati also . . . (indistinct) Govinda dasi: Malati? Prabhupāda: Yes, she can argue very nicely. Syamasundara's wife. Govinda dasi: She's in India still? Prabhupāda: She is in Europe. Govinda dasi: Oh, I heard she has a Sankirtana Party, on traveling . . . Prabhupāda: Or Yamuna. Let, let her argue with our girl students. If the girls are defeated then the next . . . if they are defeated, then they can do. I think our girl, girl students will be sufficient, defeat. Govinda dasi: I know my position as an agnostic was very miserable, and the one thing that I was so impressed when I first met you was that there is God. Prabhupāda: There, therefore our students, they, they have found life in Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dasi: Yes. That's . . . Prabhupāda: Your study is perfect. You are realizing the, the value of life. Now, those who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have found, yes there is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dasi: I can remember, I was just thinking, I was overjoyed to find out there's a God after all, and there's someone who can tell me about it. But a lot of times people just don’t have that, and they become disillusioned, and therefore they become atheists. Prabhupāda: We have got typical example, God, Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Siddha*-svarūpa: We never make the offense of saying the spiritual master is God. It is a great offense. So, we understand the spiritual master is not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa, yet, this is my understanding, nonetheless I offer my prasādam , my obeisances, every day to you no matter where I am in the world. Prabhupāda: So, while you go on serving spiritual master, then you will get . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: But this brahmacārī has heard and understood that you are omnipresent, and I have heard, from my understanding, that you are not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa. So now there's two, of course, the matter, the fact of the matter is, that we offer you our prasādam . That is the most, that's of course the important thing. You take our service, what little it is, and bring it to Kṛṣṇa. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . omnipresent, through . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent. So, the servant knows the master's . . . (indistinct) . . . master, He is omnipresent, and he is, the servant, he takes the knowledge from Him. Just like the magistrate, he judges by taking witness, so we can with Kṛṣṇa. He is omnipresent, so if Kṛṣṇa informs him, because he is His confidential servant, this man is doing this, so he is everywhere. He reveals . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: I, I . . . Prabhupāda: Not that I require personally to be omnipresent, but Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and I am Kṛṣṇa's servant, so He can inform me. That this is, this man is doing this. So therefore, conclusion is he also is omnipresent. Just like we are talking of moon and . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave them proof, but I am talking on the basis of my spiritual master, my guru . . . (indistinct) . . . he is talking on the basis of his guru , his guru , his guru , this is called paramparā . So, ultimate guru is Kṛṣṇa. So naturally if Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, the servants are also. What is the difficulty? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Part of my answer, you can criticize, was that . . . Prabhupāda: So, this is the basic principle. Now you can answer in differant ways. Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and guru is His confidential servant. Therefore, all information comes to him by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Personally doesn’t require to be omnipresent. There is no question, but because he is confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa, therefore automatically he is informed everything. kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya . That is a fact. Did you not see that. Therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything through Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is as good as, but he is not as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is called, inconceivable one and different. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I have given that answer, but, but I was perplexed that I have heard it, there was another . . . (pause) Prabhupāda: Just another? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Another view. There was two. I, it appeared as if there were two viewpoints. He would say one thing, and I would say another, but actually acintya-bheda . . . Prabhupāda: This is the real answer. That a servant cannot be as good as the master, but the master, if he takes a servant as confidential, then he is as good as. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is the meaning of confidential. Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is very confidential, I can disclose all the secrets. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He places his confidence in the servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dasi: It seems that I remember you once saying that if one, if you follow the instructions of guru , if you following instructions of the spiritual master, he can be present in your heart. He will be present, remain present in your heart always. Is this correct? Prabhupāda: His, everything will be revealed to him. tasyaite kathitāḥ hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ (ŚU 6.23), all these śāstra will be revealed to follower. yasya deve parā bhaktir . Govinda dasi: Principle of guru is within one's heart through Kṛṣṇa, or is it that the personality, you, as our spiritual master, remain always with us if we are following your instructions? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are singing daily that, daily singing, you do not understand. guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, āra nā kariha mane . And daily singing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that singing? Do you know that? Devotee (3): No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have just start(ed), I didn’t learn that until I came to LA. Prabhupāda: First . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: That song book? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Might be with Śruta-kirtī . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is the business of the disciple. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Do you have the . . . Prabhupāda: You believe, you have to believe it, that spiritual master is omnipotent, then how he can defy the orders of spiritual master? That is the system. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The.. Prabhupāda: He will defy the spiritual master's order because he knows that he is not omnipotent. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That he has no faith. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's uh, the difficulty for people is how to appreciate that the servant of God is . . . Prabhupāda: As good as God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . is as good as God, and yet still not . . . Prabhupāda: God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: God is dominator, yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And so they always want to, we want to see it as either or, either you are God or you’re not God. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, as good as God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not directly says he is God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: As good as. Govinda dasi: I don’t understand this very well, because this is what the, what the, the argument that I had with Goursundar recently. Prabhupāda: So this is duty. Govinda dasi: I mean, when I would speak of our spiritual master, the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. Prabhupāda: Hm. Govinda dasi: I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material . . . Prabhupāda: You read the original. Govinda dasi: Prabhupāda: The translation. Govinda dasi: The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Prabhupāda: ār nā koriho mane āśā , this is not translated. *Govinda dasi: cakhu*-dān dilo jei . . . Prabhupāda: No, the previous, ār nā koriho mane . . . Govinda dasi: janme janme prabhu sei . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The other verse you just read, there was one line, he says it's not translated. Govinda dasi: je prasāde , which one. I don’t know. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The last one of, read the . . . *Govinda dasi: The last line? śrī*-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama gati, je prasāde pure sarva āśā ? Prabhupāda: Hm. What is it? Read the translation. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Prabhupāda: Ār , that ār nā koriho is not covered. I am not, don’t expect anything. ār nā koriho, ār means anything else. Govinda dasi: My only wish. Prabhupāda: That's all . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Comes, seems to come to a matter of faith in the, in other words, if I am still . . . Prabhupāda: Faith is a beginning. Ādau śraddhā . *Siddha*-svarūpa: The, the prayer was, my only wish. That means then if there's no wish for sense gratification or salvation . . . Prabhupāda: No wish. Simply you have to carry out the order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then that means that the primary cause of any agitation or disturbance within myself concerning my spiritual master, doubt is, must be coming from the desire for salvation or sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Salvation is also sense gratification. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So I’m worrying that I will not be saved. So that I am concerned . . . Prabhupāda: Salvation desirable, salvation is also sense gratification. There is some demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That pure devotee has no demand. Only to serve. That is devotee. He has no such demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then he's not in anxiety whether or not . . . *Prabhupāda: Why there should be anxiety? He has no demand, therefore he is peaceful. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta-niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta . Why Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is very peaceful? Because he has no demand. Why there should be demand? They simply satisfied with the service. That is devotee. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Whereas . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone has demand. The karmīs they are seeking after comfortable condition. All these karmīs they are struggling, there is demand. This life comfortable, and those who will believe in next life, then they want to go the heavenly planets. So, they have got demands. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: karmīs, jñānīs . That they want to become one, want to become one with the Supreme. That they also demand. Big demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They want to be free from pain. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They are also trying to get released from this painful condition, karma . So, but so they try hard by doing this, doing that to become happy, when they fail, then they want to . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cease to exist. Prabhupāda: Yes. To become one . . . (indistinct) . . . foremost enjoyer. And yogīs also. They want to show generally material power. There is demand to become very prominent. Oh, this yogīs can . . . (indistinct) . . . he can do this, he can do that. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . of everyone. So, everyone has got, karmīs, jnanis . Only pure devotees, they are, they are simply satisfied to carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore, they have no demands . . . (indistinct) . . . and anyone who is wanting something predominance, materially or spiritually, they are not pure devotee. They are impure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That means that I still have the des . . . where I am the most important person in my life . . . Prabhupāda: That where is Paramahaṁsa. Govinda dasi: Um. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Where I am the most important person in my life rather than Kṛṣṇa. As long as I am the most important person . . . Prabhupāda: No, I cannot be important, but I want to become important by utilizing Kṛṣṇa. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's right. That I’m seeing Him as a supplier for me, to supply me with . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, for my business is, that Kṛṣṇa wants this, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), and sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa wants this, so our main business is to request people that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is our business. Kṛṣṇa wants it, so we are canvassing. Not that I will become as important as Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. My business is to serve. Where he is? Govinda dasi: He was eating, and he's . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, he is eating? Govinda dasi: . . . washing his mouth, and coming. Prabhupāda: All right, eating, that's all right. (pause) That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So isn’t, is . . . Prabhupāda: So I, each pure devotee does not care what is going to happen to him. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, true. Prabhupāda: Doesn’t matter to him. I must carry the order of my spiritual master. That's all. This is pure. Just like I can carry. When my spiritual master asked me to do this, let me go out, I never expected that it will be so successful . . . never expected, because all my previous godbrothers and all the svāmīs , they could not do anything. Ah, so you have taken your food? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Where is our Śruta*-kīrti? Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing, prasādam . Prabhupāda: Oh. Paramahaṁsa: We usually leave in a few minutes. Prabhupāda: That a, I mean to say when they ask question, I speak, you should also come. Is, is it for, only for them, not for you? Paramahaṁsa: I can come, but I usually do my work during this time . . . Prabhupāda: That's . . . Paramahaṁsa: . . . 'cause you're, I can’t type when you’re taking rest, so I usually type, do all the typing this time, and we just started taking prasādam early. Prabhupāda: If you are busy that is another thing. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you are not busy, you should take advantage. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Śruta*-kīrti does not type. Paramahaṁsa: No, he could come. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This eagerness to come in when you are talking with someone is, is all right to take advantage of? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's nice. Devotee: (laughs) Sometimes we are, we go. I, I think . . . Prabhupāda: There is no secret talk. It is all for everyone. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Jaya . Prabhupāda: If I don’t talk, that is another thing. When I talk, hear. So, except pure devotee, everyone is sense gratification. He wants something to satisfy his senses. This is . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then my doubts spring up, I am doubting that my spiritual master will be able to satisfy my salvation or sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Some way or other . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah I am . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to satisfy. That is the material disease. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That I am the center of my life, rather than Kṛṣṇa. I am better, that I . . . Prabhupāda: No, no question of better. You are never better. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Think . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, but in my mind I may be thinking that I am . . . Prabhupāda: No, at least let me become Kṛṣṇa. That the Māyāvādī, they want to become one with God, and at this side they have failed to become as powerful as Kṛṣṇa. Now they are thinking, by perfection I shall become as good as. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he never thinks that I cannot become so perfect that I becomes one with God. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Māyāvādī. He is such a foolish, that if I am as good as God, then how I have become dog? But he has no sense. God never, never becomes. They, they say also that God becomes dog. Dog is God, and He is, it is His pastime. He is playing like dog. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hm. *Prabhupāda: That is the Vivekananda, daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Nārāyaṇa is playing the part of a daridra . So these things are going on. These rascals. *Siddha*-svarūpa: But if Kṛṣṇa desires to play the pastime of anything, He never forgets. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: If He, if He does desire to play the pastime . . . Prabhupāda: Whether he desires or not desires, how do you know? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I was thinking of Varāha. Prabhupāda: That is the thing. Varāha is not ordinary pig. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: So why you nonsensical think that Varāha is as good as a pig? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. *Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. He is not a stool*-eater pig. He looked like, Varāha, a gigantic boar, to lift this world, so why you are thinking Varāha was a pig? That is offense. Because He has assumed this form of a pig, a big boar, does it mean that He is boar? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? (pause) This Māyāvāda philosophy very dangerous. They are the first class atheist. Paramahaṁsa: What's the difference between a brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Hm? Paramahaṁsa: What is the difference between a Brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa is also māyā . That is theory. Paramahaṁsa: And the Brahma . . . Prabhupāda: Because, because the, actually the same thing, that brahman is impersonal. The origin, the Absolute is impersonal, but when He comes as person, He accepts a material form. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So it's the same. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's the same, same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā . Paramahaṁsa: So Brahmavādī and Māyāvādī, there's no difference at all? Prabhupāda: Practically there is no difference. Paramahaṁsa: Uh, what the Brahmavādī . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmavādī also does not believe in the personal identity of Kṛṣṇa. And the Māyāvādīsays yes, He comes sometimes as person, but He accepts the material form. That is māyā. Paramahaṁsa: So the Brahmavādī is also big offender, just like the Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: No. Brahmavādī is less intelligent. They do not go further than brahman realization. But these people they think, actually there is no difference. Only difference is that, that they think brahman is final, and that is Māyāvādī too. Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs also, they think like that also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So uh . . . Prabhupāda: So take it as one. What does it matter? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What is the, why discriminate? Paramahaṁsa: Well it seems like there's a different type of, there seems like there's two varieties of impersonalists. One is . . . Prabhupāda: What is that variety? Paramahaṁsa: Oh one is a demon, practically, because he is such a . . . Prabhupāda: Why is actual demon? Paramahaṁsa: Because he is so offensive, he is directly denying the Personality of Godhead existing. Prabhupāda: But he may not know it. He has no advancement of knowledge, so why do you call him demon? Paramahaṁsa: Well usually that because Lord Caitanya says that if you even hear what they have to say, then your whole spiritual life can be ruined. *Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Paramahaṁsa: But there are some impersonalists who become great devotees. Prabhupāda: Well that is simply the same difference. The stool's upper side and lower side. That's all. If you say the upper side of the stool is very good, the lower side is not so good. So no difference. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, it is not good. Neither acceptable. Either the Māyāvada or this, this brahmavāda . Paramahaṁsa: The, the reason I was asking about that, because in one purport in the *Gītā* , you say that if one has no opportunity to meet a pure devotee of the Lord and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then perhaps impersonal practice is better, or not better, but better than nothing. Prabhupāda: Yes. At least they are accepting spirit. Just like this Śaṅkarācārya says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , they come to the platform of truth. Spirit is the truth. It is the basic principle. So permanent or nonpermanent. Material means nonpermanent. Spiritual means permanent. So that means they come to the spiritual platform. Light, just like the sunlight. That this is better than darkness, but because you are in the sunlight does not mean you are in the sun. The sun is there, so you have come to the sunlight, that it does not mean that you have reached the sun planet, or the sun god. But it is better than the darkness. To remain in darkness, that is very troublesome. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So in comparison to the darkness, the sunlight is better. Paramahaṁsa: course . . . Prabhupāda: That the sunlight does not mean that you are in the sun globe, or you are seeing the sun god. In this way try to understand. Paramahaṁsa: But in . . . *Prabhupāda: Light is better than darkness. Material conception of life, that is most ignorant, most fallen condition. So, those who have come to brahma*-jñāna , they are better than these rascals, those who are completely blind. Paramahaṁsa: But then it becomes very difficult for them to accept devotional service, if they’re in that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: . . . Māyāvādī . . . Prabhupāda: That, that therefore they, they require the association of a devotee. *Paramahaṁsa: That another part, in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it says that the, actually the gross materialists are better than the Māyāvādīs. They are more sincere than the Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: Because they sometimes defy Kṛṣṇa and fall down. Therefore they fall down. They are innocent. They want bodily comfort, that's all. They do not commit any offense. Paramahaṁsa: The gross materialist? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are after bodily comfort. Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs have opportunity? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs they are defying, that Kṛṣṇa, they are thinking, I am as good as Kṛṣṇa. So that is very offensive. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Whereas the gross materialists aren’t thinking of Kṛṣṇa at all. Prabhupāda: Ah. So, even they are aware that the Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . not interested, we want our car, eating. They do not commit offense. Rather they chant Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so powerful, that"s all right.’ That is also good. They are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, but if they say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is like that", so that is good for them. But these rascals they are claiming, "We are as good as Kṛṣṇa". That is great offense. Kṛṣṇa aparādha . Purposeful. They do not know about Kṛṣṇa, so therefore not so aparādha . They say: "All right, Kṛṣṇa is very good, that"s a fact, but we are not interested. We are interested with our car and skyscraper buildings. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.’ And if he is good it's all right. They are not so offensive. But these rascals are claiming, "Kṛṣṇa and myself the same". Paramahaṁsa: So better if they remain gross materialists than become a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is said the gross materialism is better than Māyāvādī. They are speculator, therefore he is . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a rascal. Then defy these arguments. (end) Conversation -- June 12, 1975, Honolulu Prabhupāda: You giving this theory that from the tree a man and a monkey came. So, where is that experiment? Where is that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Sometimes it is seen that impersonalists, although they may be impersonalists, still they may not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They, it is sometimes found that impersonalists they don’t, they will not directly speak of themselves as being equal to Kṛṣṇa. They will not even mention. They wont even mention. Prabhupāda: Generally do. Govinda dasi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? So, our relationship with you as spiritual master has existed eternally in the past, or will exist eternally? Prabhupāda: That don’t bother with it. Go on, do with minimum. (long pause) *Past and present, you are present, the commentary is just carry out the orders, that's all. When you have accepted spiritual master, carry out, that's all. cakhu*-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei . Past means that, then you admit to your disciple, that in the past you could not carry out, therefore accept another birth. So, carry out. That is the point. What is the use of talking past, present and future? ār nā koriho mane āśā . This is wanted. Don’t think of anything else. That is the point. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So, then if I’m worried about my past or my future . . .? *Prabhupāda: No, whatever is past is past. Now, I have got the knowledge, let me carry out. Cakhu*-dān , now I have got this real knowledge. What is the use of thinking of past ? In the past somebody was hippie was drinking. No, that world was past. Let me progress. Now let me do responsible thing. That is the point. Govinda dasi: Actually, I’m trying to understand the future of my misery. Prabhupāda: Oh, we do not think of future. If I work sincerely, then future is all right. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Bhaktivinode Thakura says . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . forget the past that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . sleeps, and the future ne’er . . . Prabhupāda: Why should we bother about the past? Past was not perfect. Therefore, I have got this, birth again . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the use of concocting? Whatever has passed has passed. Now let me be sincere. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And, and what is the basic reason for my concern for the future? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What would the . . .? Prabhupāda: For the future, let me do sincerely. Whatever future will be, that will be. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then I haven’t even . . .? Prabhupāda: If I do not go to Vaikuntha, doesn’t matter. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Still I shall carry out. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So I have to be free from all cares with my future . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . for myself. Prabhupāda: Yes. If, faith should be there, if I am working rightly, then my future will be, secure. That is future. I have taken to this path for going back to home, back to Godhead, so I am, if I am doing nicely, according to the instructions of . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he think of? And if I am not doing rightly, then . . . (indistinct) . . . this is called faith. Why should you bother about future? What is the reason? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I, I, I would bother about my future . . . Prabhupāda: There is no question of bothering. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I mean, I care about my future when . . . Prabhupāda: If you care you do, just like Kṛṣṇa says: Past and future is explained there. Do this. Always chant, think of Me, that mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam , be assured you will come to Me. So why don’t you do your duty? And Kṛṣṇa assures, they will come to Me, there is no doubt . . . (indistinct) . . . why should he bother for the future? If you do exactly according to the rules and regulations, then your future is guaranteed. Even it is not guaranteed, still I shall go on doing. And that is pure. It is guaranteed. Kṛṣṇa said, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam , so why do you doubt? Why there should be doubt? Kṛṣṇa said it is guaranteed. Why should you bother about future? You, you bother whether you are doing rightly or not. That should be your business. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa assures. Were is doubt? Huh? The future is assured by Kṛṣṇa, and . . . why you are doubting? That you don’t believe in Kṛṣṇa. You have to see whether you are doing rightly what Kṛṣṇa says. That is your business. What is the use of thinking past, future, present? Do your duty as Kṛṣṇa says, as spiritual master says, then everything is all right. There is no question or doubt. Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayam, mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayam. Asaṁśayam means without a doubt you will come to Me. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So if I . . . Prabhupāda: And ours should be that, it is not a bargain, that Kṛṣṇa is assuring, therefore I will have to serve Kṛṣṇa. That even I will go to hell, it doesn’t matter. That is my duty. Kṛṣṇa is assuring, that is all right, but even, some reason or Kṛṣṇa doesn’t drive me, its still I shall do. *Siddha*-svarūpa: If I don’t do that, it means imperfection in love then. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I’m still self-centered. Prabhupāda: That, that is taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: Kṛṣṇa whatever you like . . . (indistinct) . . . still I cannot give up . . . (indistinct) . . . to make bargain with Kṛṣṇa, then you are not a pure devotee. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, the spiritual world is that dimension where that pure love exists. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no bargaining. Oh if Kṛṣṇa does it, then I shall do it. That is business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is not love. Let Kṛṣṇa do whatever He likes. But Kṛṣṇa says no, if you do, then you are surely coming to Me. Then where is the doubt? Do sincerely whatever you are asked to do through the spiritual master, through Kṛṣṇa personally, that is your . . . what will be the result or not result, I don’t know. That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, even in the Bible it mentions that purity in one verse. There is the statement that we would rather be away from this body and at home with the Lord. We would rather be out of this body and at and at home with the Lord, but even if we are in this body, away from the Lord or at home with the Lord, our only ambition should be to please Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Whereas in the previous statement there was still a tinge of desire for liberation from pain, freedom from the body, then in the next statement he says, but our only ambition should be, whether at home or, or in the body or whatever, that our only ambition should be to please Him. Prabhupāda: That is in the bhāgavata also. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari*-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). The perfection is whether you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Either this body or that body, here or there, it doesn’t matter. Whether Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That you have to see. So if Kṛṣṇa is pleased through the spiritual master, so if spiritual master is pleased, Kṛṣṇa is pleased. Because he is confidential servant. If the servant says, yes this man is nice, then Kṛṣṇa will accept him. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then if my, my happiness, or my questioning should not be whether or not . . . Prabhupāda: You have to strictly carry out faithfully. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . the orders of Kṛṣṇa and spiritual master, without any consideration. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Then that is perfection. And if you make your own idea, the spiritual master is not so intelligent, I am more than intelligent, I can do like this, then you are doomed. yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo . As soon as we manufacture, concoct, then . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then the relationship isn’t one of trying to gain something from my spiritual master, and worrying that in the future I will be able to gain . . . Prabhupāda: He has given you already. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The gain is that now you carry out. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Simply a, a, a matter . . . Prabhupāda: Initiation means he has given this. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now you carry out the order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then whether the relationship is eternal in my heart will be, depend upon whether or not I am desirous of pleasing him. Prabhupāda: That now you have got this relationship, that's all, eternal, not eternal. Why do you bother about this, all this? I have to do. This is my duty. That's all. Govinda dasi: I’m trying to ask this question because this is the question that I discussed with Goursundar, and that I was bewildered. Prabhupāda: Goursundar, what does he know? Govinda dasi: Enough to confuse me. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. Why should discuss with Goursundar? He is a perfect man? Then why should you discuss with him? He is a rascal. Govinda dasi: Because he was saying that my attitude is very, is . . . Prabhupāda: Huh? Govinda dasi: . . . sentimental. Because he was telling me that, that my faith is a sentimental thing. I was trying to understand that from a philosophical point of view in order to defend it. *Prabhupāda: So, what philosophy does he know? Why should you ask Goursundar? What does he know? If he has little intelligence, then you would not have given up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has no intelligence. He is a rascal. Mūḍhāḥ . That is our conclusion. Anyone who is not fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhāḥ , he is duṣkṛtino , sinful, narādhamāḥ , lowest of the mankind. This is our conclusion. That is the complaint of all other . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughing) We are, all of them we are taking them as mūḍhāḥ , rascal, narādhamāḥ , and they are posing themselves as very big important man in their society. And because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are accepting them as mūḍhāḥ . That is their concept. So they are all rejected by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is their complaint. They are trying to make a so*-called mutual present society. You are welcome. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: But we are saying nobody is right except Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So, that has become their concept. Everybody is a rascal . . . (indistinct) . . . that is their concern. This, preaching goes on, then . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Thank you. Govinda dasi: Thank you. (offers obeisances) Devotees: (Background exchange) Prabhupāda: Now, They are influenced by rubber tree. Govinda dasi: Wow. Prabhupāda: I have seen it. So many rubber trees. They have got rubber trees, extensive. This exploitation is forbidden in the *Īśopaniṣad*. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). So, all over the world, especially in the eastern world, the, oil in the beginning of the eastern world . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . or in, in the, in the eastern world, not in the western world. Where is that? They have made a line, international? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Oh, I don’t know where it begins. Some . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Somewhere . . . (indistinct) . . . you get, crossing that line you will get one day advantage. So, anyway, this is the eastern part. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Up to America, mainland, it is western. This Hawaii and Japan, South Pacific, they are all eastern. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The, in Southeast Asia the . . . they are finding out that one of the main reasons the Americans wanted to stay in Vietnam was because there's the vast oil that is offshore from Vietnam. Right offshore in Vietnam there's vast oil reserves that the American oil companies had already spent, they had invested millions and millions of dollars in setting up oil rigs and they had to all leave. Not only oil, but different types of trees, and, what is the underground products, mining, different, different things that was there. That there were big companies that were involved, big American companies that were involved in trying to make . . . (indistinct) . . . even they wanted tourism. In the future, they are hoping to be able to have hotels in Vietnam, to exploit in that way. Prabhupāda: They make big, big hotels in the Philippines. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now they left. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Govinda dasi: So, the whole world is, is being pushed by big business then? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That the Vietnam war was primarily desired by the big corporations. They wanted Vietnam to exploit in that way. Also they made money simply from there being a war. If there was no war, they would be unemployed. That in America's . . . Prabhupāda: That means the American people in order to make money, war material, they engage their men to kill. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Otherwise there is no movement of the economy. Govinda dasi: They kill their sons for big business? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, the, the economy doesn’t move. It's like you have to have people working, so they, they, they, they have them producing something which is consumable, and there's nothing more consumable than a bomb or a helicopter, so that they produce thousands of helicopters and bombs. Just like now, they’re producing jets. Here's France, produces a particular kind of jet, and America produces a particular type of jet, and Belgium is going, needs to buy some jets, so the American producers, American companies and the French companies they are fighting, trying to convince the Belgians. There's somebody to buy our jet, and then the whole, there's a whole business trying to sell different war, war materials to all these other countries now. And they are hoping, of course the businessmen are hoping that they’ll use them up and buy new ones. So, they, they, they need to have small wars. Prabhupāda: So, you have seen the, the other, big island, they are producing sugar? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: The same thing you have seen, in Fiji . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . they do not require. First of all produce your own food. No. They are not interested. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hm. Prabhupāda: The capitalists, they take the land. They want the business, that unnecessary. Here also they are producing pineapple more than necessary. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Much more. Prabhupāda: They are wasting the land. People should be satisfied, first of all, producing his necessities, that they will produce, nothing more. Whatever they require. But if, as soon as a third party, capitalist, becomes interested, he will induce them to produce unnecessary things, and necessary things will stop. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Actually, this is a, this is a, it's being recognized. In fact, one congress, a congressman, I read, had an article and was asking, was actually saying that the entire western way of life is in jeopardy, that it is, it is a dangerous point, because our entire economic system is based upon the, the production and consumption of unnecessary objects. Prabhupāda: That's right. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They make some object, and then they make a commercial and tell them you want this, and the people they get it. Prabhupāda: Yes. And when he is induced, they offer them money, they requested that television, he shall have to pay. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Expense. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: He doesn’t require, neither he has got money, so there is advertisement, television is very good, he is induced, and the bank says yes you can take money, so he becomes perpetual debtor. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That's right. Prabhupāda: So, he has to work. He cannot sit down. He has to go, so, so, so, so, so. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He has no choice. Prabhupāda: Where is freedom? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are speaking of freedom, ha. Prabhupāda: Simply exploit. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. They actually are saying that they want the freedom to exploit, and if there is a government where there is no freedom to exploit, they will be unhappy. They will not be able to enjoy life as much. Devotee (3): It's another way of keeping the people subjugated. (break) *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . matter. Devotee (3): There's a famous lady atheist, who, who makes her, who makes her business by defeating theists. She travels from place to place, and gives . . . Prabhupāda: Whether she will come here? Devotee (3): I’ve forgotten her name. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Madeline Murray. Govinda dasi: Madeline Murray. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Madeline Murray. Govinda dasi: She's a demon. *Siddha*-svarūpa: She, she's the one who pushed very strongly against prayer in school. Prabhupāda: So, why, why, why not come here and stop ours? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If she could, she probably would try to. Govinda dasi: She is mean. Prabhupāda: Then she will be trying for . . . that we are praying, so you come and stop our praying. by your reason and . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: We are inviting. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That would be a great meet, meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: She's, she must be really puffed up by now. Prabhupāda: But why she does not come to us, if she is traveling? *Siddha*-svarūpa: She's concerned mainly with Christianity. Her concern is Christianity. Prabhupāda: Her, her challenge is about God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . that somebody dares to convince that there is no God. Why not invite? Govinda dasi: She is very offensive. Prabhupāda: What is her philosophy? She has no book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Her philosophy, no, her philosophy is that there is no God, and that . . . Prabhupada: She has written any book? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Probably. Govinda dasi: She's, I’ve never read any book, but I’ve read about her. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Probably she's written a book, and the idea, she simply, somehow or other by words defeats. Devotee (3): Her, her appearances, it becomes an art, that's all. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Devotee (2): But she uses foul language and . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, she's very gross. Govinda dasi: She's very gross. Devotee: Offensive, very offensive. Govinda dasi: Very offensive, just like, offensive to . . . Prabhupāda: So, why not defeat her? You are also philosopher. Devotee (2): D She's . . . Prabhupāda: You have learned so much. Defeat her. *Siddha*-svarūpa: (laughing) Like hit her over the head. Govinda dasi: (laughing) She's really, she's really a gross lady. She's, she curses and calls . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . what education you will give. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You call her. Come here. We shall talk with you. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is, this is the real business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. She, she's . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Malati, yourself, Malati also . . . (indistinct) Govinda dasi: Malati? Prabhupāda: Yes, she can argue very nicely. Syamasundara's wife. Govinda dasi: She's in India still? Prabhupāda: She is in Europe. Govinda dasi: Oh, I heard she has a Sankirtana Party, on traveling . . . Prabhupāda: Or Yamuna. Let, let her argue with our girl students. If the girls are defeated then the next . . . if they are defeated, then they can do. I think our girl, girl students will be sufficient, defeat. Govinda dasi: I know my position as an agnostic was very miserable, and the one thing that I was so impressed when I first met you was that there is God. Prabhupāda: There, therefore our students, they, they have found life in Kṛṣṇa. Govinda dasi: Yes. That's . . . Prabhupāda: Your study is perfect. You are realizing the, the value of life. Now, those who have come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have found, yes there is . . . (indistinct) Govinda dasi: I can remember, I was just thinking, I was overjoyed to find out there's a God after all, and there's someone who can tell me about it. But a lot of times people just don’t have that, and they become disillusioned, and therefore they become atheists. Prabhupāda: We have got typical example, God, Kṛṣṇa. (break) *Siddha*-svarūpa: We never make the offense of saying the spiritual master is God. It is a great offense. So, we understand the spiritual master is not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa, yet, this is my understanding, nonetheless I offer my prasādam , my obeisances, every day to you no matter where I am in the world. Prabhupāda: So, while you go on serving spiritual master, then you will get . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: But this brahmacārī has heard and understood that you are omnipresent, and I have heard, from my understanding, that you are not omnipresent like Kṛṣṇa. So now there's two, of course, the matter, the fact of the matter is, that we offer you our prasādam . That is the most, that's of course the important thing. You take our service, what little it is, and bring it to Kṛṣṇa. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . omnipresent, through . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent. So, the servant knows the master's . . . (indistinct) . . . master, He is omnipresent, and he is, the servant, he takes the knowledge from Him. Just like the magistrate, he judges by taking witness, so we can with Kṛṣṇa. He is omnipresent, so if Kṛṣṇa informs him, because he is His confidential servant, this man is doing this, so he is everywhere. He reveals . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: I, I . . . Prabhupāda: Not that I require personally to be omnipresent, but Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and I am Kṛṣṇa's servant, so He can inform me. That this is, this man is doing this. So therefore, conclusion is he also is omnipresent. Just like we are talking of moon and . . . (indistinct) . . . I gave them proof, but I am talking on the basis of my spiritual master, my guru . . . (indistinct) . . . he is talking on the basis of his guru , his guru , his guru , this is called paramparā . So, ultimate guru is Kṛṣṇa. So naturally if Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, the servants are also. What is the difficulty? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Part of my answer, you can criticize, was that . . . Prabhupāda: So, this is the basic principle. Now you can answer in differant ways. Kṛṣṇa is omnipresent, and guru is His confidential servant. Therefore, all information comes to him by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Personally doesn’t require to be omnipresent. There is no question, but because he is confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa, therefore automatically he is informed everything. kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya . That is a fact. Did you not see that. Therefore he is as good as Kṛṣṇa. He knows everything through Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is as good as, but he is not as good as Kṛṣṇa. This is called, inconceivable one and different. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I have given that answer, but, but I was perplexed that I have heard it, there was another . . . (pause) Prabhupāda: Just another? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Another view. There was two. I, it appeared as if there were two viewpoints. He would say one thing, and I would say another, but actually acintya-bheda . . . Prabhupāda: This is the real answer. That a servant cannot be as good as the master, but the master, if he takes a servant as confidential, then he is as good as. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That is the meaning of confidential. Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody is very confidential, I can disclose all the secrets. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He places his confidence in the servant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Govinda dasi: It seems that I remember you once saying that if one, if you follow the instructions of guru , if you following instructions of the spiritual master, he can be present in your heart. He will be present, remain present in your heart always. Is this correct? Prabhupāda: His, everything will be revealed to him. tasyaite kathitāḥ hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ (ŚU 6.23), all these śāstra will be revealed to follower. yasya deve parā bhaktir . Govinda dasi: Principle of guru is within one's heart through Kṛṣṇa, or is it that the personality, you, as our spiritual master, remain always with us if we are following your instructions? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are singing daily that, daily singing, you do not understand. guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, āra nā kariha mane . And daily singing . . . (indistinct) . . . what is that singing? Do you know that? Devotee (3): No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have just start(ed), I didn’t learn that until I came to LA. Prabhupāda: First . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: That song book? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Might be with Śruta-kirtī . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: This is the business of the disciple. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Do you have the . . . Prabhupāda: You believe, you have to believe it, that spiritual master is omnipotent, then how he can defy the orders of spiritual master? That is the system. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The.. Prabhupāda: He will defy the spiritual master's order because he knows that he is not omnipotent. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That he has no faith. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's uh, the difficulty for people is how to appreciate that the servant of God is . . . Prabhupāda: As good as God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . is as good as God, and yet still not . . . Prabhupāda: God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: God is dominator, yeah. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And so they always want to, we want to see it as either or, either you are God or you’re not God. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, as good as God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Not directly says he is God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: As good as. Govinda dasi: I don’t understand this very well, because this is what the, what the, the argument that I had with Goursundar recently. Prabhupāda: So this is duty. Govinda dasi: I mean, when I would speak of our spiritual master, the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. Prabhupāda: Hm. Govinda dasi: I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material . . . Prabhupāda: You read the original. Govinda dasi: Prabhupāda: The translation. Govinda dasi: The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Prabhupāda: ār nā koriho mane āśā , this is not translated. *Govinda dasi: cakhu*-dān dilo jei . . . Prabhupāda: No, the previous, ār nā koriho mane . . . Govinda dasi: janme janme prabhu sei . . . Prabhupāda: No, no, before that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The other verse you just read, there was one line, he says it's not translated. Govinda dasi: je prasāde , which one. I don’t know. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The last one of, read the . . . *Govinda dasi: The last line? śrī*-guru-caraṇe rati, ei se uttama gati, je prasāde pure sarva āśā ? Prabhupāda: Hm. What is it? Read the translation. My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires. Prabhupāda: Ār , that ār nā koriho is not covered. I am not, don’t expect anything. ār nā koriho, ār means anything else. Govinda dasi: My only wish. Prabhupāda: That's all . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Comes, seems to come to a matter of faith in the, in other words, if I am still . . . Prabhupāda: Faith is a beginning. Ādau śraddhā . *Siddha*-svarūpa: The, the prayer was, my only wish. That means then if there's no wish for sense gratification or salvation . . . Prabhupāda: No wish. Simply you have to carry out the order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then that means that the primary cause of any agitation or disturbance within myself concerning my spiritual master, doubt is, must be coming from the desire for salvation or sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Salvation is also sense gratification. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So I’m worrying that I will not be saved. So that I am concerned . . . Prabhupāda: Salvation desirable, salvation is also sense gratification. There is some demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That pure devotee has no demand. Only to serve. That is devotee. He has no such demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then he's not in anxiety whether or not . . . *Prabhupāda: Why there should be anxiety? He has no demand, therefore he is peaceful. Kṛṣṇa*-bhakta-niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta . Why Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is very peaceful? Because he has no demand. Why there should be demand? They simply satisfied with the service. That is devotee. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Whereas . . . Prabhupāda: Everyone has demand. The karmīs they are seeking after comfortable condition. All these karmīs they are struggling, there is demand. This life comfortable, and those who will believe in next life, then they want to go the heavenly planets. So, they have got demands. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: karmīs, jñānīs . That they want to become one, want to become one with the Supreme. That they also demand. Big demand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They want to be free from pain. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. They are also trying to get released from this painful condition, karma . So, but so they try hard by doing this, doing that to become happy, when they fail, then they want to . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cease to exist. Prabhupāda: Yes. To become one . . . (indistinct) . . . foremost enjoyer. And yogīs also. They want to show generally material power. There is demand to become very prominent. Oh, this yogīs can . . . (indistinct) . . . he can do this, he can do that. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . of everyone. So, everyone has got, karmīs, jnanis . Only pure devotees, they are, they are simply satisfied to carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . therefore, they have no demands . . . (indistinct) . . . and anyone who is wanting something predominance, materially or spiritually, they are not pure devotee. They are impure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That means that I still have the des . . . where I am the most important person in my life . . . Prabhupāda: That where is Paramahaṁsa. Govinda dasi: Um. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Where I am the most important person in my life rather than Kṛṣṇa. As long as I am the most important person . . . Prabhupāda: No, I cannot be important, but I want to become important by utilizing Kṛṣṇa. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's right. That I’m seeing Him as a supplier for me, to supply me with . . . *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, for my business is, that Kṛṣṇa wants this, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), and sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa wants this, so our main business is to request people that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, you do it. That is our business. Kṛṣṇa wants it, so we are canvassing. Not that I will become as important as Kṛṣṇa. That is our business. My business is to serve. Where he is? Govinda dasi: He was eating, and he's . . . Prabhupāda: Oh, he is eating? Govinda dasi: . . . washing his mouth, and coming. Prabhupāda: All right, eating, that's all right. (pause) That is pure. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So isn’t, is . . . Prabhupāda: So I, each pure devotee does not care what is going to happen to him. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, true. Prabhupāda: Doesn’t matter to him. I must carry the order of my spiritual master. That's all. This is pure. Just like I can carry. When my spiritual master asked me to do this, let me go out, I never expected that it will be so successful . . . never expected, because all my previous godbrothers and all the svāmīs , they could not do anything. Ah, so you have taken your food? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Where is our Śruta*-kīrti? Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: He's just finishing, prasādam . Prabhupāda: Oh. Paramahaṁsa: We usually leave in a few minutes. Prabhupāda: That a, I mean to say when they ask question, I speak, you should also come. Is, is it for, only for them, not for you? Paramahaṁsa: I can come, but I usually do my work during this time . . . Prabhupāda: That's . . . Paramahaṁsa: . . . 'cause you're, I can’t type when you’re taking rest, so I usually type, do all the typing this time, and we just started taking prasādam early. Prabhupāda: If you are busy that is another thing. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: If you are not busy, you should take advantage. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Śruta*-kīrti does not type. Paramahaṁsa: No, he could come. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This eagerness to come in when you are talking with someone is, is all right to take advantage of? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): That's nice. Devotee: (laughs) Sometimes we are, we go. I, I think . . . Prabhupāda: There is no secret talk. It is all for everyone. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Jaya . Prabhupāda: If I don’t talk, that is another thing. When I talk, hear. So, except pure devotee, everyone is sense gratification. He wants something to satisfy his senses. This is . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: So then my doubts spring up, I am doubting that my spiritual master will be able to satisfy my salvation or sense gratification. Prabhupāda: Some way or other . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah I am . . . Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everyone is trying to satisfy. That is the material disease. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That I am the center of my life, rather than Kṛṣṇa. I am better, that I . . . Prabhupāda: No, no question of better. You are never better. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Think . . . (indistinct) . . . like that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, but in my mind I may be thinking that I am . . . Prabhupāda: No, at least let me become Kṛṣṇa. That the Māyāvādī, they want to become one with God, and at this side they have failed to become as powerful as Kṛṣṇa. Now they are thinking, by perfection I shall become as good as. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . he never thinks that I cannot become so perfect that I becomes one with God. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Māyāvādī. He is such a foolish, that if I am as good as God, then how I have become dog? But he has no sense. God never, never becomes. They, they say also that God becomes dog. Dog is God, and He is, it is His pastime. He is playing like dog. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hm. *Prabhupāda: That is the Vivekananda, daridra*-nārāyaṇa . Nārāyaṇa is playing the part of a daridra . So these things are going on. These rascals. *Siddha*-svarūpa: But if Kṛṣṇa desires to play the pastime of anything, He never forgets. Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: If He, if He does desire to play the pastime . . . Prabhupāda: Whether he desires or not desires, how do you know? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I was thinking of Varāha. Prabhupāda: That is the thing. Varāha is not ordinary pig. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: So why you nonsensical think that Varāha is as good as a pig? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. *Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. He is not a stool*-eater pig. He looked like, Varāha, a gigantic boar, to lift this world, so why you are thinking Varāha was a pig? That is offense. Because He has assumed this form of a pig, a big boar, does it mean that He is boar? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? (pause) This Māyāvāda philosophy very dangerous. They are the first class atheist. Paramahaṁsa: What's the difference between a brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Hm? Paramahaṁsa: What is the difference between a Brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa is also māyā . That is theory. Paramahaṁsa: And the Brahma . . . Prabhupāda: Because, because the, actually the same thing, that brahman is impersonal. The origin, the Absolute is impersonal, but when He comes as person, He accepts a material form. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So it's the same. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's the same, same philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā . Paramahaṁsa: So Brahmavādī and Māyāvādī, there's no difference at all? Prabhupāda: Practically there is no difference. Paramahaṁsa: Uh, what the Brahmavādī . . . Prabhupāda: Brahmavādī also does not believe in the personal identity of Kṛṣṇa. And the Māyāvādīsays yes, He comes sometimes as person, but He accepts the material form. That is māyā. Paramahaṁsa: So the Brahmavādī is also big offender, just like the Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: No. Brahmavādī is less intelligent. They do not go further than brahman realization. But these people they think, actually there is no difference. Only difference is that, that they think brahman is final, and that is Māyāvādī too. Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs also, they think like that also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So uh . . . Prabhupāda: So take it as one. What does it matter? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What is the, why discriminate? Paramahaṁsa: Well it seems like there's a different type of, there seems like there's two varieties of impersonalists. One is . . . Prabhupāda: What is that variety? Paramahaṁsa: Oh one is a demon, practically, because he is such a . . . Prabhupāda: Why is actual demon? Paramahaṁsa: Because he is so offensive, he is directly denying the Personality of Godhead existing. Prabhupāda: But he may not know it. He has no advancement of knowledge, so why do you call him demon? Paramahaṁsa: Well usually that because Lord Caitanya says that if you even hear what they have to say, then your whole spiritual life can be ruined. *Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvādī. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . Māyāvādi*-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Paramahaṁsa: But there are some impersonalists who become great devotees. Prabhupāda: Well that is simply the same difference. The stool's upper side and lower side. That's all. If you say the upper side of the stool is very good, the lower side is not so good. So no difference. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So, it is not good. Neither acceptable. Either the Māyāvada or this, this brahmavāda . Paramahaṁsa: The, the reason I was asking about that, because in one purport in the *Gītā* , you say that if one has no opportunity to meet a pure devotee of the Lord and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then perhaps impersonal practice is better, or not better, but better than nothing. Prabhupāda: Yes. At least they are accepting spirit. Just like this Śaṅkarācārya says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā , they come to the platform of truth. Spirit is the truth. It is the basic principle. So permanent or nonpermanent. Material means nonpermanent. Spiritual means permanent. So that means they come to the spiritual platform. Light, just like the sunlight. That this is better than darkness, but because you are in the sunlight does not mean you are in the sun. The sun is there, so you have come to the sunlight, that it does not mean that you have reached the sun planet, or the sun god. But it is better than the darkness. To remain in darkness, that is very troublesome. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: So in comparison to the darkness, the sunlight is better. Paramahaṁsa: course . . . Prabhupāda: That the sunlight does not mean that you are in the sun globe, or you are seeing the sun god. In this way try to understand. Paramahaṁsa: But in . . . *Prabhupāda: Light is better than darkness. Material conception of life, that is most ignorant, most fallen condition. So, those who have come to brahma*-jñāna , they are better than these rascals, those who are completely blind. Paramahaṁsa: But then it becomes very difficult for them to accept devotional service, if they’re in that . . . Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: . . . Māyāvādī . . . Prabhupāda: That, that therefore they, they require the association of a devotee. *Paramahaṁsa: That another part, in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta it says that the, actually the gross materialists are better than the Māyāvādīs. They are more sincere than the Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: Because they sometimes defy Kṛṣṇa and fall down. Therefore they fall down. They are innocent. They want bodily comfort, that's all. They do not commit any offense. Paramahaṁsa: The gross materialist? Prabhupāda: Yes. They are after bodily comfort. Paramahaṁsa: But the Māyāvādīs have opportunity? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs they are defying, that Kṛṣṇa, they are thinking, I am as good as Kṛṣṇa. So that is very offensive. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Whereas the gross materialists aren’t thinking of Kṛṣṇa at all. Prabhupāda: Ah. So, even they are aware that the Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . not interested, we want our car, eating. They do not commit offense. Rather they chant Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is so powerful, that"s all right.’ That is also good. They are not interested in Kṛṣṇa, but if they say, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is like that", so that is good for them. But these rascals they are claiming, "We are as good as Kṛṣṇa". That is great offense. Kṛṣṇa aparādha . Purposeful. They do not know about Kṛṣṇa, so therefore not so aparādha . They say: "All right, Kṛṣṇa is very good, that"s a fact, but we are not interested. We are interested with our car and skyscraper buildings. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.’ And if he is good it's all right. They are not so offensive. But these rascals are claiming, "Kṛṣṇa and myself the same". Paramahaṁsa: So better if they remain gross materialists than become a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is said the gross materialism is better than Māyāvādī. They are speculator, therefore he is . . . (indistinct) . . . he is a rascal. Then defy these arguments. (end) Conversation -- June 14, 1975, Honolulu Devotee: Japa class (chanting in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Japa Prabhupāda: So just you are seeing advertising on the road, telephone company. If you have got some problem do not hesitate to call. So what is the problem? What is your problem? . . . you cannot say anyone? What is your problem. Of course that is especially for the devotees. But the common man what is the problem? Devotee: Death, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: Mm? Devotee: Death . . . birth death old age Prabhupāda: Yes . . . death, Nobody wants to die, that's a fact. They are manufacturing medicine. So many preventive processes to check death, old age, disease. These are the problems but where is the solution? The telephone company advertises, but is there any solution of this problem in this material world, by the material scientists? Try to understand this fact, they can give you facility and may bluff you that this is the solution. But the real problem remains the same. You should always keep in view that the material scientist, leaders they cannot solve the real problem. That real problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Try to understand this. If you have any questions you can ask? This is our challenge. It is not challenge it is fact. They can challenge whatever they like but . . . (indistinct) . . . but these problems. No telephone company can give us information for that how these problems can be solved. This is our problem we don't want to die. Can you give me any information? They'll not hear but you can inform the telephone company that here is an institution which can solve it. If we keep our problem always in conscious. They will give us facilities like the Karāndhara has told us that they have manufactured aeroplanes that can run at . . . what is that 14? 14 hundred miles an hour. So one can come from Paris to Los Angeles in two hours. But that is not solution of our problems that is increasing another problem and the Government is objecting that such planes are running then there will be so much catastrophe. The living conditions, that is creating another problem. And another problem means death, ultimately death. All problems are summarized into death Mṛtyuḥ, mṛtyuḥ death takes from us everything finished. Your . . . all arrangements for solving problems are taken away. Many leaders came within this world, Hitler, Churchill, Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, everyone tries to, Lenin, solve this problem, the problems are there but they left defeat. People may say that your this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement also will not solve the problems for everyone. But that is not the fact, the fact is whoever will take it seriously his problems will be solved. If everyone takes it seriously then every ones problems will be solved. Bhāgavat , now we are publishing with original verse, transliteration word to word meaning. Not for selling, this for you. We are taking so much trouble for translating, giving word to word meaning trying to explain. Not that we are doing all this things for doing some good business. It is not meant for business it is really meant for our students. So if you find out time to study each and every śloka , what is the difficulty? Hm? Is there any difficulty? (Indistinct) So this . . . always engaged. Always engaged we have got sufficient engagement reading, distributing, chanting, saṅkīrtan . If you reduce the eating, sleeping, mating, that is spiritual life. The more you reduce the animal part of us. This is animal part, eating sleeping mating and defending. This is animal part but the human part of life is to develop your dormant Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. This is the chance, human life is the chance. Greater intelligence is human, to develop your human part of life, not to develop your animal part. Then you are misusing, misuse. The modern civilization they are giving facility to develop animal part. Just like we saw in the beach, boy and girl they are lying in an open place embracing one after another. This is animal part of life. Just like dog they've no shame for sex life on the street. The human life is not meant for that we have got also sex life but not like that. But the modern civilization advancement means why not? (laughter) Just like . . . don’t laugh this serious. Just John Lennon he is standing naked. So they are thinking this is advancement of civilization, to increase the animal part of it, that is the defect of the modern . . . in spite of nice arrangement for education, or comfortable life, the tendency is to increase the animal part of it. You should know all this, you should not be captivated by this animal part. The human part of life is different, otherwise what is the difference between cats and dogs and hogs and human society? The human part of life is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are simply in the animal kingdom. Is that alright or if there any questions, you can ask them? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Certainly. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, provided they take it seriously. Otherwise if they keep their mentality differently then according to mind one has to get a body. But just like so many boys they come here in the beginning out of curiosity, but gradually they get the chance to become a devotee. Similarly if they take the chance then they will be liberated. They come out of curiosity but if they take it seriously then they will be liberated. Just like hospital is meant for curing the disease. So one should take the treatment if he simply goes and visits the hospital and thinks now I am cured how it can be. Hospital is . . . suppose if I advertise that anyone who comes to this hospital he will be cured of his disease. That's a fact, but if he thinks that I have comes here, now I am going. Then how he will be cured? You see Jaganātha on the Ratha Yātrā, his way for liberation is open. But if he comes back again and entangles himself . . . then? One goes to the doctor and he gives injection the disease is cured, but again he comes back and does the same thing so that he develops this disease again. So who's fault is it? This is called pratiñṭā . Pratiñṭā means, elephant takes bath very nicely and as soon as he comes on the bank of the river or the lake, he takes dust and throws (break) again. If we do that then we shall remain always dirty. We go take bath, clean but don't take dirt again. That is not going on. They become immediately mukta , liberated but they come, again become entangled. If it is a fact seeing Jaganātha is mukta , that how easy he comes to mukta but if he again comes to māyā then who can take it. Just like we are following the path of liberation but if you again come back to māyā then where is your liberation? Why Jaganātha in the Ratha here but if somebody comes here and sees the path of liberation is open, now he should protect himself. Just like disease, fever it's subsided, now one should be careful not to relapse again. That care is in my hands, everyone's hands and if you become prone to relapse again, then again the same thing. Just like in Christian church they confess for that is injunction. That's alright after confessing the sins are excused. That's a fact, but if he comes back, again commits the sin, then what is the account? But they are happy in that way. Then after one week you can go to the church, "And confess my sins". Then everything will be neutralized. This is alright, suppose on Sunday you become free from all contamination of your sins. On Monday, you again do the same thing so you become again become contaminated and say on Tuesday you should die then you are dying with sin. Is it not? Then what is your condition? If God or Christ excuses of your sinful life that's alright but when you come back you don't commit again sin then you are alright. But we are taking it as a business, that we go on Sunday naturalize all sins and come back again and do the same thing. So from logical point of view, suppose you do the same sinful activity and if you die immediately then you'll die with sinful activities and go to hell. What benefit is derived by confessing in the church? This business is going on. Now I have seen Jaganātha my liberation is guaranteed now I can do anything. This mentality, this mentality is not really nice. You have seen Jaganātha your sinful activities are now neutralized but don't commit again. Now make progress then your liberation will be there, is it clear? The chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Mantra, one chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is sufficient to make us pure from all sinful activities reaction. But if we commit sin again in the hope that because I'm chanting this will be neutralized and that is the greatest sin. So one side you should chant always Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra so that you may not fall down and other side you should be careful. No illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat eating, in this way if you carefully make progress then your liberation is guaranteed. Just like doctor, if you go to a doctor for treatment of the disease he gives you medicine. At the same time he prohibits you, don't do this. So you take medicine and don't do this, follow these instructions, you are cured, yes. But if you don't follow the don't do this and don't take the medicine regularly then how you can expect cure? *It maybe but it will take long time but if you want quick, take it seriously. Just like Dhruva Māhāraja in six months he saw God. In six months . . . (indistinct) . . . he followed self*-realization and if you don't follow the regulative principles and instruction then our liberation will be delayed. Otherwise it's guaranteed. Devotee: How do you develop . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Prabhupāda: Seriousness, if you become serious then you will develop. Develop seriously, if you are fickle then how you can develop seriously. Therefore the injunction is we should be very serious to abide by the orders of the Spiritual Master then you are serious. If you think the spiritual master is a man like me why should I follow . . . (indistinct) . . . the instructions so strictly, then you are not serious. And what is the use of your . . . (indistinct) . . . this is seriousness and we are singing daily yasya prasādād bhagavat prasādo , what is the meaning of this? Devotee: By the mercy of the Spiritual master one receives the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So if you don't follow the spiritual master then how can you get His mercy? Mercy is always there but if you don't take it? Then what . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritual master or the father will do? You have to take it. That is civilization, therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says that the order of my spiritual master is my life. I do not know whether I get liberation or not that is not my business. My business is to carry out the order of my spiritual master, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. If one is serious on this point then he is liberated. First of all we have to approach a spiritual master, who is actually spiritual master and then if he carries the order of the spiritual master then everything . . . (indistinct) . . . the same example first of all you find out a right physician and you put yourself under his treatment, follow his instruction and the disease is cured. But if you go to your false Physician or if you are false, then you become implicated . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . 45 minutes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation -- June 14, 1975, Honolulu Devotee: Japa class (chanting in background) Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Japa Prabhupāda: So just you are seeing advertising on the road, telephone company. If you have got some problem do not hesitate to call. So what is the problem? What is your problem? . . . you cannot say anyone? What is your problem. Of course that is especially for the devotees. But the common man what is the problem? Devotee: Death, Śrīla Prabhupāda Prabhupāda: Mm? Devotee: Death . . . birth death old age Prabhupāda: Yes . . . death, Nobody wants to die, that's a fact. They are manufacturing medicine. So many preventive processes to check death, old age, disease. These are the problems but where is the solution? The telephone company advertises, but is there any solution of this problem in this material world, by the material scientists? Try to understand this fact, they can give you facility and may bluff you that this is the solution. But the real problem remains the same. You should always keep in view that the material scientist, leaders they cannot solve the real problem. That real problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. Try to understand this. If you have any questions you can ask? This is our challenge. It is not challenge it is fact. They can challenge whatever they like but . . . (indistinct) . . . but these problems. No telephone company can give us information for that how these problems can be solved. This is our problem we don't want to die. Can you give me any information? They'll not hear but you can inform the telephone company that here is an institution which can solve it. If we keep our problem always in conscious. They will give us facilities like the Karāndhara has told us that they have manufactured aeroplanes that can run at . . . what is that 14? 14 hundred miles an hour. So one can come from Paris to Los Angeles in two hours. But that is not solution of our problems that is increasing another problem and the Government is objecting that such planes are running then there will be so much catastrophe. The living conditions, that is creating another problem. And another problem means death, ultimately death. All problems are summarized into death Mṛtyuḥ, mṛtyuḥ death takes from us everything finished. Your . . . all arrangements for solving problems are taken away. Many leaders came within this world, Hitler, Churchill, Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, everyone tries to, Lenin, solve this problem, the problems are there but they left defeat. People may say that your this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement also will not solve the problems for everyone. But that is not the fact, the fact is whoever will take it seriously his problems will be solved. If everyone takes it seriously then every ones problems will be solved. Bhāgavat , now we are publishing with original verse, transliteration word to word meaning. Not for selling, this for you. We are taking so much trouble for translating, giving word to word meaning trying to explain. Not that we are doing all this things for doing some good business. It is not meant for business it is really meant for our students. So if you find out time to study each and every śloka , what is the difficulty? Hm? Is there any difficulty? (Indistinct) So this . . . always engaged. Always engaged we have got sufficient engagement reading, distributing, chanting, saṅkīrtan . If you reduce the eating, sleeping, mating, that is spiritual life. The more you reduce the animal part of us. This is animal part, eating sleeping mating and defending. This is animal part but the human part of life is to develop your dormant Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. This is the chance, human life is the chance. Greater intelligence is human, to develop your human part of life, not to develop your animal part. Then you are misusing, misuse. The modern civilization they are giving facility to develop animal part. Just like we saw in the beach, boy and girl they are lying in an open place embracing one after another. This is animal part of life. Just like dog they've no shame for sex life on the street. The human life is not meant for that we have got also sex life but not like that. But the modern civilization advancement means why not? (laughter) Just like . . . don’t laugh this serious. Just John Lennon he is standing naked. So they are thinking this is advancement of civilization, to increase the animal part of it, that is the defect of the modern . . . in spite of nice arrangement for education, or comfortable life, the tendency is to increase the animal part of it. You should know all this, you should not be captivated by this animal part. The human part of life is different, otherwise what is the difference between cats and dogs and hogs and human society? The human part of life is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we are simply in the animal kingdom. Is that alright or if there any questions, you can ask them? Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Certainly. Devotee: . . . (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, provided they take it seriously. Otherwise if they keep their mentality differently then according to mind one has to get a body. But just like so many boys they come here in the beginning out of curiosity, but gradually they get the chance to become a devotee. Similarly if they take the chance then they will be liberated. They come out of curiosity but if they take it seriously then they will be liberated. Just like hospital is meant for curing the disease. So one should take the treatment if he simply goes and visits the hospital and thinks now I am cured how it can be. Hospital is . . . suppose if I advertise that anyone who comes to this hospital he will be cured of his disease. That's a fact, but if he thinks that I have comes here, now I am going. Then how he will be cured? You see Jaganātha on the Ratha Yātrā, his way for liberation is open. But if he comes back again and entangles himself . . . then? One goes to the doctor and he gives injection the disease is cured, but again he comes back and does the same thing so that he develops this disease again. So who's fault is it? This is called pratiñṭā . Pratiñṭā means, elephant takes bath very nicely and as soon as he comes on the bank of the river or the lake, he takes dust and throws (break) again. If we do that then we shall remain always dirty. We go take bath, clean but don't take dirt again. That is not going on. They become immediately mukta , liberated but they come, again become entangled. If it is a fact seeing Jaganātha is mukta , that how easy he comes to mukta but if he again comes to māyā then who can take it. Just like we are following the path of liberation but if you again come back to māyā then where is your liberation? Why Jaganātha in the Ratha here but if somebody comes here and sees the path of liberation is open, now he should protect himself. Just like disease, fever it's subsided, now one should be careful not to relapse again. That care is in my hands, everyone's hands and if you become prone to relapse again, then again the same thing. Just like in Christian church they confess for that is injunction. That's alright after confessing the sins are excused. That's a fact, but if he comes back, again commits the sin, then what is the account? But they are happy in that way. Then after one week you can go to the church, "And confess my sins". Then everything will be neutralized. This is alright, suppose on Sunday you become free from all contamination of your sins. On Monday, you again do the same thing so you become again become contaminated and say on Tuesday you should die then you are dying with sin. Is it not? Then what is your condition? If God or Christ excuses of your sinful life that's alright but when you come back you don't commit again sin then you are alright. But we are taking it as a business, that we go on Sunday naturalize all sins and come back again and do the same thing. So from logical point of view, suppose you do the same sinful activity and if you die immediately then you'll die with sinful activities and go to hell. What benefit is derived by confessing in the church? This business is going on. Now I have seen Jaganātha my liberation is guaranteed now I can do anything. This mentality, this mentality is not really nice. You have seen Jaganātha your sinful activities are now neutralized but don't commit again. Now make progress then your liberation will be there, is it clear? The chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Mantra, one chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is sufficient to make us pure from all sinful activities reaction. But if we commit sin again in the hope that because I'm chanting this will be neutralized and that is the greatest sin. So one side you should chant always Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra so that you may not fall down and other side you should be careful. No illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat eating, in this way if you carefully make progress then your liberation is guaranteed. Just like doctor, if you go to a doctor for treatment of the disease he gives you medicine. At the same time he prohibits you, don't do this. So you take medicine and don't do this, follow these instructions, you are cured, yes. But if you don't follow the don't do this and don't take the medicine regularly then how you can expect cure? *It maybe but it will take long time but if you want quick, take it seriously. Just like Dhruva Māhāraja in six months he saw God. In six months . . . (indistinct) . . . he followed self*-realization and if you don't follow the regulative principles and instruction then our liberation will be delayed. Otherwise it's guaranteed. Devotee: How do you develop . . . (indistinct) . . . knowledge. Prabhupāda: Seriousness, if you become serious then you will develop. Develop seriously, if you are fickle then how you can develop seriously. Therefore the injunction is we should be very serious to abide by the orders of the Spiritual Master then you are serious. If you think the spiritual master is a man like me why should I follow . . . (indistinct) . . . the instructions so strictly, then you are not serious. And what is the use of your . . . (indistinct) . . . this is seriousness and we are singing daily yasya prasādād bhagavat prasādo , what is the meaning of this? Devotee: By the mercy of the Spiritual master one receives the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: So if you don't follow the spiritual master then how can you get His mercy? Mercy is always there but if you don't take it? Then what . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritual master or the father will do? You have to take it. That is civilization, therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says that the order of my spiritual master is my life. I do not know whether I get liberation or not that is not my business. My business is to carry out the order of my spiritual master, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. If one is serious on this point then he is liberated. First of all we have to approach a spiritual master, who is actually spiritual master and then if he carries the order of the spiritual master then everything . . . (indistinct) . . . the same example first of all you find out a right physician and you put yourself under his treatment, follow his instruction and the disease is cured. But if you go to your false Physician or if you are false, then you become implicated . . . (indistinct) Devotee: (indistinct) . . . 45 minutes. Prabhupāda: I shall go. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1975, Honolulu (about Educational System) *Siddha*-svarūpa: I’d like to try to do what I can to, to, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Now this educational system should be changed. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's actually . . . I was writing an article on the educational system and how it should be changed. Maybe even just for . . . print a few copies, just for teachers . . . Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . or something. Prabhupāda: Of course, you can write articles, but that will not be effective unless your plan is practical. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So perhaps I’m not . . . then, I’m not, you know, I’m not sure whether or not I, in other words, whether or not the process is . . . what I’m trying to . . . put the Bhagavad-gītā into this present school system or to simply have your own school system apart from it. Prabhupāda: They will not take. The teachers are also demons. They, they must be of ideal institution, ideal character to develop. If the teachers and the authority were actually sane men, then how things are happening like this? They do not have a . . . they are asuras . Practically they are saying that this is question of time. But they do not know how to rectify. They do not know. And if we suggest, they may not accept us, because they have no brain. Better to establish separate ideally. Example is better than precept. If you have got ideal example, that is better than you try to rectify them, because they have lost their brain. They have no good brain substance. Lost. Just like the USA and the Chinese, they are condemning excessive sex life, and the Europeans particularly, sex life is simply there. Actually, excessive sex life means slaughter. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And that's like . . . *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. All good saṁskāra finished. They cannot become high*-graded, thoughtful men. Sometimes they become ruined. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The semina is so valuable. They do not know that it . . . (indistinct) . . . of the whole system is marriage. Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . Instead of disturbing semina, the brahmacārī system was that semina goes to . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: The brain. Prabhupāda: . . . to the brain to make it more powerful. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . That brahmacārī life was ūrdhva-retāḥ . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ud . . .? *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ūrdhva-retāḥ ? Prabhupāda: Retah means "semina," and ūrdhva means "up." Instead of going out, discharged, they utilize it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The . . . the Chinese do that also, consciously. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Chinese practice ūrdhva*-retāḥ . Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Almost Indian. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: There was regular exchange of learned scholars between China and India very recently. So their culture is become similar to Indian culture. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . in Japan also. They, from this Pacific; as soon as you go the other side, demoniac, and as soon as you keep this side, then this Oriental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This is in the middle. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also Oriental. The Hawaiians, they are Oriental. Low class, caṇḍāla class; not brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya . They are low class, but still culture is Oriental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They had some priestly class here. They are called kahunas. They were very similar to mystic yogīs also. They were always celibate. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said this is Oriental culture. I can see. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's a, a school . . . Prabhupāda: Now they have been conquered by these Occidental culture. They are very aggressive. Colonization: bring more, more land, more money, more sex. Now it is becoming failure. They are creating hippies. Varṇāśankara. *Siddha*-svarūpa: In the Western world right now, or in a, in a couple of years, but right now it's beginning, the people are more and more and more going to be searching for a place where they can send their children to school. Prabhupāda: We should have ideal institution, varṇāśrama college. People will be very much happy to send their children. So you have got a group of men who, likes you, who follows you, could train up the teachers and open a varṇāśrama college anywhere, either in India or here, and make an ideal school. They will see how nice it is. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Would it be one . . . an institution that more for people who are living outside, public, to come and go, take class . . .? Prabhupāda: That way we could. But they come, they take their meals here . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Take their meals here, just like at school. Prabhupāda: Or make it public school, resident students. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Both. Prabhupāda: So they will be trained up right, just like you are training in Dallas: rise early in the morning and attend maṅgala-ārati , then in class, take nice prasādam . All facility—but this culture of . . . no smoking, no gambling. Better, male and female separate. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And what about Deity worship? Prabhupāda: Deity worship there must be. Otherwise . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right away. Prabhupāda: . . . they remain unclean. Deity worship means the habit becomes clean. If you stop Deity worship, then they will remain unclean. Because along with the Deity worship one has to rise early in the morning, take bath, attend maṅgala-ārati . This is another practical training—to keep him clean. Because here, your countrymen, they are very, very unclean. So this Deity worship will help them to remain clean. And then they will be able to understand this philosophy. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The reason I ask is because many people, especially people who are brought up Christians, they are have . . . they have a very difficult time. They can chant, and they might be interested in coming and being part of the classes, taking a class in the Bhagavad-gītā and so on, but they would have a very difficult time worshiping Deities. They . . . there's some block, because of the way . . . Prabhupāda: Then have kīrtana . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. That may be a . . . that may be . . . but rising early in the morning . . . Prabhupāda: Deity worship and kīrtana , becomes very ecstatic. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that is, in, in the . . . Prabhupāda: Without Deity, kīrtana is not very ecstatic. That is . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, there may be a way for beginners, for beginning people and people who are more into it, who are more advanced, that they can . . . Prabhupāda: No. If not Deity worship, keep pictures. That will be . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and go on kīrtana . But the system of rising early, taking bath . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right. Prabhupāda: . . . that should be done. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Clean head. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. All, even the students who . . .? Prabhupāda: The point is you want to change, then we have to set some authorized changes. If you keep them as it is, how they will be changed? *Siddha*-svarūpa: For students who are living outside, for instance, if it's . . . try to make it a public thing for a lot, many people . . . would, would those people also . . . would just the students who were living on the grounds—that is those students who were living there full, what do they call it, dormitory students who live in . . . uh—would, would even students from outside who were coming in to take classes be required, for instance, to shave their heads? Prabhupāda: Well, they must be clean. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And clean state of habit. It's . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Well, originally in schools, uh, what's . . . in ways that public schools . . . (break) (end) Conversation A -- June 15, 1975, Honolulu (about Educational System) *Siddha*-svarūpa: I’d like to try to do what I can to, to, uh . . . Prabhupāda: Now this educational system should be changed. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's actually . . . I was writing an article on the educational system and how it should be changed. Maybe even just for . . . print a few copies, just for teachers . . . Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . . . or something. Prabhupāda: Of course, you can write articles, but that will not be effective unless your plan is practical. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So perhaps I’m not . . . then, I’m not, you know, I’m not sure whether or not I, in other words, whether or not the process is . . . what I’m trying to . . . put the Bhagavad-gītā into this present school system or to simply have your own school system apart from it. Prabhupāda: They will not take. The teachers are also demons. They, they must be of ideal institution, ideal character to develop. If the teachers and the authority were actually sane men, then how things are happening like this? They do not have a . . . they are asuras . Practically they are saying that this is question of time. But they do not know how to rectify. They do not know. And if we suggest, they may not accept us, because they have no brain. Better to establish separate ideally. Example is better than precept. If you have got ideal example, that is better than you try to rectify them, because they have lost their brain. They have no good brain substance. Lost. Just like the USA and the Chinese, they are condemning excessive sex life, and the Europeans particularly, sex life is simply there. Actually, excessive sex life means slaughter. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And that's like . . . *Prabhupāda: That's a fact. All good saṁskāra finished. They cannot become high*-graded, thoughtful men. Sometimes they become ruined. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The semina is so valuable. They do not know that it . . . (indistinct) . . . of the whole system is marriage. Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . Instead of disturbing semina, the brahmacārī system was that semina goes to . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: The brain. Prabhupāda: . . . to the brain to make it more powerful. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . That brahmacārī life was ūrdhva-retāḥ . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ud . . .? *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-retāḥ . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ūrdhva-retāḥ ? Prabhupāda: Retah means "semina," and ūrdhva means "up." Instead of going out, discharged, they utilize it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The . . . the Chinese do that also, consciously. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Chinese practice ūrdhva*-retāḥ . Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: Almost Indian. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: There was regular exchange of learned scholars between China and India very recently. So their culture is become similar to Indian culture. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . in Japan also. They, from this Pacific; as soon as you go the other side, demoniac, and as soon as you keep this side, then this Oriental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: This is in the middle. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also Oriental. The Hawaiians, they are Oriental. Low class, caṇḍāla class; not brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya . They are low class, but still culture is Oriental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They had some priestly class here. They are called kahunas. They were very similar to mystic yogīs also. They were always celibate. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said this is Oriental culture. I can see. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's a, a school . . . Prabhupāda: Now they have been conquered by these Occidental culture. They are very aggressive. Colonization: bring more, more land, more money, more sex. Now it is becoming failure. They are creating hippies. Varṇāśankara. *Siddha*-svarūpa: In the Western world right now, or in a, in a couple of years, but right now it's beginning, the people are more and more and more going to be searching for a place where they can send their children to school. Prabhupāda: We should have ideal institution, varṇāśrama college. People will be very much happy to send their children. So you have got a group of men who, likes you, who follows you, could train up the teachers and open a varṇāśrama college anywhere, either in India or here, and make an ideal school. They will see how nice it is. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Would it be one . . . an institution that more for people who are living outside, public, to come and go, take class . . .? Prabhupāda: That way we could. But they come, they take their meals here . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Take their meals here, just like at school. Prabhupāda: Or make it public school, resident students. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. Both. Prabhupāda: So they will be trained up right, just like you are training in Dallas: rise early in the morning and attend maṅgala-ārati , then in class, take nice prasādam . All facility—but this culture of . . . no smoking, no gambling. Better, male and female separate. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And what about Deity worship? Prabhupāda: Deity worship there must be. Otherwise . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right away. Prabhupāda: . . . they remain unclean. Deity worship means the habit becomes clean. If you stop Deity worship, then they will remain unclean. Because along with the Deity worship one has to rise early in the morning, take bath, attend maṅgala-ārati . This is another practical training—to keep him clean. Because here, your countrymen, they are very, very unclean. So this Deity worship will help them to remain clean. And then they will be able to understand this philosophy. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The reason I ask is because many people, especially people who are brought up Christians, they are have . . . they have a very difficult time. They can chant, and they might be interested in coming and being part of the classes, taking a class in the Bhagavad-gītā and so on, but they would have a very difficult time worshiping Deities. They . . . there's some block, because of the way . . . Prabhupāda: Then have kīrtana . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. That may be a . . . that may be . . . but rising early in the morning . . . Prabhupāda: Deity worship and kīrtana , becomes very ecstatic. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that is, in, in the . . . Prabhupāda: Without Deity, kīrtana is not very ecstatic. That is . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, there may be a way for beginners, for beginning people and people who are more into it, who are more advanced, that they can . . . Prabhupāda: No. If not Deity worship, keep pictures. That will be . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: . . . and go on kīrtana . But the system of rising early, taking bath . . . *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right. Prabhupāda: . . . that should be done. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Clean head. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. All, even the students who . . .? Prabhupāda: The point is you want to change, then we have to set some authorized changes. If you keep them as it is, how they will be changed? *Siddha*-svarūpa: For students who are living outside, for instance, if it's . . . try to make it a public thing for a lot, many people . . . would, would those people also . . . would just the students who were living on the grounds—that is those students who were living there full, what do they call it, dormitory students who live in . . . uh—would, would even students from outside who were coming in to take classes be required, for instance, to shave their heads? Prabhupāda: Well, they must be clean. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And clean state of habit. It's . . . (indistinct) *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Well, originally in schools, uh, what's . . . in ways that public schools . . . (break) (end) Arrival -- June 20, 1975, Los Angeles Jayatīrtha: Now everything is very nice. Prabhupāda: When you have come? Brahmānanda: I came Wednesday evening. Prabhupāda: So you look bright. Brahmānanda: Oh, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, how is your preaching going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: Nice now. Yes. So Sudāmā is doing nice? Jayatīrtha: Yes, he seems to be. He gave a very nice lecture the other night. He seems to be very—how would you say it—repatriated. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . is behind. Why? Jayatīrtha: Well, now we are catching up. Now things are becoming much more organized. But at the end in New York, things were very disorganized, and nothing was getting done. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda Mahārāja, you kindly inquire where is the bottleneck. Brahmānanda: Yes, from what I have seen already. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: From what I have seen already, they are doing much more than before. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you are behind so many books. Brahmānanda: They are giving one book now to the printer. Prabhupāda: Why they are seventeen books behind? *Brahmānanda: Hayagrīva is today finished the sixth volume of Madhya*-līlā . There are nine volumes altogether. Prabhupāda: No. I have heard that seventeen books are behind. Why? Very slow. You should rather want me to give more matter. But you are behind. What is the reason? Editorial department? Jayatīrtha: Now the editorial department is doing very good. Prabhupāda: But you are behind so many books. Jayatīrtha: The only thing which is a little slow now is the Bengali departments. But now, with Nitāi and Jagannātha coming, it should be . . . Prabhupāda: Bengali? Jayatīrtha: The Bengali editing is a little behind still. But the other departments are going at rate of two books a month. If we can now just bring the Bengali department . . . Prabhupāda: Books are not coming out. Jayatīrtha: No, because during the whole . . . until they left New York, hardly anything was getting done, and then they went to India, the whole Press, so nothing was getting done, and then they moved. So now they've been here about three weeks. Since they've been here almost one whole book has been finished, and the rate has become very much increased. *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam , Fifth Canto is finished, Sixth Canto half*-finished. *Jayatīrtha: Sixth Canto half*-finished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You have finished only Fourth Canto. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Fifth Canto not yet published. So Haṁsadūta has sent some copies of xerox. At all universities they are giving standing order—Oxford University, London University. In London, I hear, England, they are also giving standing order for Bhāgavatam and Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. That's a fact. Satsvarūpa is coming tonight. Prabhupāda: And Dr. Judah has written one very nice book. I have read it. Brahmānanda: Dr. Judah's book. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have read it. Did you like that book? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayatīrtha: He's coming here in four days to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very scholarly written, and he has appreciated our . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've met him many times. Every day we are performing the festival, kīrtana . He is very favorable. *Prabhupāda: He's a good man. He has studied the movement very fairly. He is only surprised, "How these drug*-addicted hippies have become devotee?" That is his surprise. He has mentioned that, that "We appreciate your movement, that you have turned so many drug-addicted hippies into devotee of Kṛṣṇa and in the service of humanity." That they are appreciating. And that is the fact. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one is turned into devotee, then all the good qualities automatically become manifest. *That is the verdict of Bhāgavata. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā . Anyone who is not a devotee, his material qualification has no value. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ . He is hovering over the mental plane. Therefore in your country, Western country, the so-called big, big philosophers, scientists, they could not do anything tangible, because they are hovering on the mental plane. (breaks squeal) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manorathena. Mana means mind, and ratha means car. They are driving on the mental car. So mind is material. (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—selling more books? Jayatīrtha: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja is selling the most books. Prabhupāda: He is collecting $30,000? Jayatīrtha: How much you are collecting, Tamāla, last month? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we collected a lot. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The collection is very good. The books are selling. Prabhupāda: Selling amongst public or educational institution? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are selling to all classes of people—big books and small books. Prabhupāda: You have got now proper engagement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I started by doing this. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I started by doing this. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. No. You are feeling happy in this engagement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm happy to serve you, Prabhupāda. Whatever pleases you makes me happy. We are getting many new men. Now we have about 115 men. Prabhupāda: So, another bus? (chuckles) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, more and more buses. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Your country is full of buses. Yasmin deśe yad ācaraḥ . Your country is of motorcar, so take advantage of motorcar and utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. That is the tactics. Not that, "Oh, we have become Vaiṣṇava. We don't touch motorcar. It is material." This is not our philosophy. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta*-vairāgyam ucyate (Rūpa Gosvāmī). We can utilize everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa because we see everything Kṛṣṇa's. If the motorcar is there, it is for Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Karāndhara came there. Jayatīrtha: Karāndhara came. Yes. Prabhupāda: So he said: "I am again surrendered." (laughs) Jayatīrtha: I hope so. Prabhupāda: So he has gone to Tehran? Jayatīrtha: Yes. A letter just came from him recently saying that he was very enthusiastic in his service there. *Prabhupāda: He is business*-minded. Let him do business for Kṛṣṇa. Jayatīrtha: Yes. He says there is so much money there they don't know how to spend it. In Iran people have so much money they don't what to do with it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are getting money for nothing. (laughs) Jayatīrtha: Yes. Right. It's coming out of the ground. Prabhupāda: And the Bengali saying, dhula mati bhatte kare mata : "They are catching dust and it is turning into coin." This proverb is there, dhula mati bhatte kare mato . He is thinking that, "I am taking some dust, but when it is in hand, it is coin." That is good time. And when it is bad time, if you catch coin and when it is in your hand, it is dust. We should think that time may also come. Yes. Because after all, it is Kṛṣṇa's desire, turn dust into coin, to turn coin into dust. So we should be always careful. If we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the coin will never turn into dust. Otherwise it can be turned. So you American, you are now full of coins. Before turning into dust, catch Kṛṣṇa with the coin: it will never turn into dust; it will remain coin. Hmm? I am very hopeful of the Americans. Because you are so nice devotees, you can keep your country coinful, no dustful. India is giving up Kṛṣṇa, and therefore they are turning into dust. Jayatīrtha: So much dust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done by the mercy of your books, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Well, it is not my book; it is Kṛṣṇa's book. I am trying my best to present it as it is, that's all. That much you can say my, but there is nothing mine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The effect of these books is hard to perceive immediately, because we can't imagine how . . . so many millions of books have gone out. In the future they will all fructify as devotees, the people who have read them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When they will read, then they will get. Nowadays in the Sixth Canto, Fourth Chapter, the soul and how the soul is covered, that is being described wonderfully. Śrīmad*-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . It is written by the most learned Vyāsadeva, vidvāṁs , and sātvata-saṁhitām . How merciful he was. He is still living, Vyāsadeva. He is still existing. Do you remember this verse? It is in the First Canto. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First Canto. Prabhupāda: Anartha . The soul has been embarrassed, the unnecessary things. Just like a man is within the huge garbage. What is his position? If . . . you have got your garbage car, so within that, (chuckles) if a man is pushed . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Abominable. *Prabhupāda: It is like that. Twenty*-four elements. Five material elements, three subtle elements, then five working senses and five all knowledge-gathering senses—how many? Jayatīrtha: Eighteen. Prabhupāda: Eighteen? No. Jayatīrtha: So far. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-three, I think. Five gross elements, five senses . . . five knowledge-gathering senses, and five working senses, fifteen . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then the objects . . . Jayatīrtha: Three subtle . . . *Prabhupāda: The mind, ego and mahat*-tattva , eighteen, yes. And then five sense objects—the rūpa, rasa , form, taste, like that. Then twenty-three. Jayatīrtha: The aggregate, pradhāna . *Prabhupāda: Pradhāna , and then the soul, twenty*-five. Twenty-four and three guṇas . Three guṇas: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Twenty-seven. So twenty-seven layers of garbage. Underneath, the soul is there. What he will do? He is a small particle, soul, and he is covered with so many material elements. To come out of it is very, very difficult. But if one is engaged in devotional service he can come out immediately. Just like when one is spiritually perfect, he goes immediately to Kṛṣṇa, penetrating these material coverings of the universe. Immediately. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), immediately. That is spiritual force. So can you give me a list how much money you have to realize from our devotees who have taken money, loan? Jayatīrtha: Who have taken money in loan? You mean unauthorized loan? Prabhupāda: Not unauthorized, authorized. Jayatīrtha: Oh, how much Book Trust has loaned . . . Prabhupāda: Unauthorized also? There are? Jayatīrtha: How much Book Trust loans there are. You want to see the list of Book Trust loans? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayatīrtha: Yes, we can give you that list. Prabhupāda: There is unauthorized loan also? Jayatīrtha: I thought you were . . . sometimes in the past from time to time these things have gone on. Prabhupāda: Past is all right. Have you received any news from Bombay? Brahmānanda: Yes, there's two letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Pālikā brought them. Pālikā has come. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is the position there? Brahmānanda: Well, I haven't read the letters yet, but she was saying that on the whole, Mr. Mhatre now is diminishing. They have met with his superior in the party, and the superior is very much . . . he's not happy with Mr. Mhatre's activities and his reputation, and he says that in the forthcoming election he may not even put him on the election ballot. Prabhupāda: That will be right punishment for him. Then he will understand. That will be more than death. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for a politician, that's the worst. Prabhupāda: Politicians, if they are refused political seat, that is more than death. Just like Kṛṣṇa was advising Arjuna that, "You are known as a great hero, and if you don't fight then they will blaspheme you like anything. So that will be more than death. Better die. When they will say nindanti , 'Oh, the Arjuna has become a coward. He could not fight. He will die,' so that blaspheme will be more than death." So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it has come to the notice of the . . . Brahmānanda: The other party members, the party superiors, they are . . . his reputation is damaging their party. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: His activities are so unscrupulous. *Prabhupāda: And what about the N.O.C.? N.O? No*-Objection Certificate? *Brahmānanda: I don't know the details, but Pālikā said that they are . . . the holes have been dug and they're expecting to put the foundation in before the monsoon. And that there was some attempt to stop the some digging, but that has been defeated. When I was there, there was some question about getting the No*-Objection Certificate for the already-existing temple. Prabhupāda: Existing temple? Brahmānanda: Well, the little temple we have there now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every year it has to be renewed. *Brahmānanda: Yeah. So this year they have, by some trick, they have made it that the police must give their No*-Objection Certificate. Usually that is not required each year. Prabhupāda: They are harassing us in so many ways. Only in Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means if we become successful finally, it will be a tremendous success, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something very big will happen there. Brahmānanda: They've concluded that the opposition is not from the central government but from the local. Because the projects are going on without being hampered in any other places in India. It is only in Bombay that we are getting this difficulty. Prabhupāda: In central government that Indira Gandhi is now . . . Brahmānanda: Her position is now jeopardized. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? I didn't know that. Prabhupāda: She is convicted. Jayatīrtha: Election fraud. Prabhupāda: That election was not properly . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who has convicted her? Brahmānanda: High court. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How was . . . I am surprised they could do that. She's practically like a dictator. Prabhupāda: And she has been done in his (her) own city, Allahabad. Brahmānanda: They have lost the election, Congress Party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this is a recent, new election. Brahmānanda: Yes, in Gujarat. Prabhupāda: Now our next attempt will be Kurukṣetra . . . Brahmānanda: There is some proposal there? *Prabhupāda: . . . where Kṛṣṇa personally spoke Bhagavad*-gītā . Recently I have been in Kurukṣetra. You were . . . yes. So I have decided to do something there. Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa personally spoke there. Our two movements—we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and we are holding Ratha-yātrā—all these two incidences took place at Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is so important. Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and His sister, on some occasion of lunar eclipse, they came from Dvārakā in a chariot, ratha , two brothers and sister, and that is the occasion of Ratha-yātrā. And the Vṛndāvana inhabitants, especially Rādhārāṇī, they came from Vṛndāvana to see Kṛṣṇa after long time. And she pleaded that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rādhārāṇī . . ." (coughing) Is there any water? No. "But this place is not the proper place. Let Us go to Vṛndāvana." That is Mahāprabhu's feeling. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You've expressed that in Madhya*-līlā , throughout there. *Prabhupāda: That Mahāprabhu's feeling of Kṛṣṇa is like that. Therefore He took part in the Ratha*-yātrā and invited Kṛṣṇa, "Come to Vṛndāvana." So these two important things took place in the Kurukṣetra. So we must have a very big temple there, and a varṇāśrama college. This is my desire. Kṛṣṇa's direct instruction, Bhagavad-gītā . It should be a historical . . . it is historical. People should come here as the most important historical place. And Gītā is well known all over the world. And Gītā begins with the word dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). So Kurukṣetra, in that sense very important. Brahmānanda: That was one of the first things you told us when you came, that Kurukṣetra is an actual place. There's a railway station. People can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: We had never known that. We thought it was something mythological or . . . Jayatīrtha: Allegorical. Prabhupāda: That is not. These political leaders, they have made it. (reading sign) Carpeterica. They manufacture carpet? We are already on the Venice road? No? Jayatīrtha: Yes. This is Venice Boulevard. Prabhupāda: You have got my passbook? Jayatīrtha: From the Liberty Bank? Prabhupāda: Not Liberty. Bank of America? Jayatīrtha: Passbook. Prabhupāda: Investment passbook? Jayatīrtha: Oh, from that savings account. Prabhupāda: I sent it to be made . . . for making it up to date. Jayatīrtha: You mailed it? Prabhupāda: No, I gave to Gurukṛpa, and he sent through somebody. Jayatīrtha: He did not give it to me. Maybe he gave it to Rāmeśvara. I'll check with him. I think he must have forgotten. Prabhupāda: So the engineering block is now occupied? Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. As we go by it, you can see the big sign is there, "Bhaktivedanta Book Trust." Just over here to the left. (devotees exclaim) Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nice. You have never seen . . . *Prabhupāda: So that Bhaktivedanta go*-down has come here? No. *Jayatīrtha: No, go*-down is still there. This building is not large enough for that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen this building yet, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, here is for lease. (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Jayatīrtha discuss in background about leasing one of the buildings for a restaurant) (break) (Video start): Prabhupāda: . . . propensity, the tendency is there. Naturally I want to love somebody. It is not unnatural. When that love is reposed to Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. The Māyāvādī, they are frustrated, therefore they want to make this love into zero. They cannot understand Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs. They think it is another edition of this material . . . oh, how are you, Hayagrīva prabhu? How are you? You look better. You are looking better, brighter than when I saw you in New Vrindaban last. You have got so much talents for serving Kṛṣṇa. Everyone has got. That I am speaking. We have to utilize it. From the very beginning I met you, I instructed to edit. That was the starting of our Back to Godhead. He is good typist also. You know that? (laughter) I think he is the best of all of our men. He can type very swiftly and correctly. I think in our group Hayagrīva prabhu and Satsvarūpa Mahārāja are very good typist. And Jayādvaita, I think you are also, no? Jayādvaita: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You are good typist? (laughter) So why you have not published Bali*-mardana's article? *Jayādvaita: Bali*-mardana's article. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: We were waiting. We weren't sure if it was appropriate to publish it. Prabhupāda: He thought disappointed. He has published. He has written very nicely. Jayādvaita: He has written nicely? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: We can publish it? Prabhupāda: So we should . . . yes, here is the . . . what is that? Brahmānanda: "Illusion and Reality," two essays . . . Prabhupāda: He has presented very nicely. So we should encourage our men. Jayādvaita: Publish it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And our men, all our men should write. Otherwise how we shall know that he has understood the philosophy? Writing means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Śravaṇam means hearing from the authority, and again repeat it. This is our business, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), about Viṣṇu, not for any politician or any other man. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ , about Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. So that is success. Hear and repeat, hear and repeat. You haven't got to manufacture. Any one of us, simply if you reproduce the purport which I have given in Bhāgavata , you become a good speaker. What I am doing? I am doing the same thing, writing the same thing, so that modern man can understand. Otherwise we are repeating the same thing. They are repeating also same thing, sense gratification. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But because that is material, they are not getting happiness. But the spiritual thing, we are chanting the same Hare Kṛṣṇa, simply repeating, but we are getting transcendental bliss. What we are doing? Same "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." So process is the same, the subject matter is different. So why you are behind publication? Now all the big men are here. Why our books are behind? Why? Here the editors are there. I don't think there is any scarcity. Rāmeśvara: Now there is no scarcity. Prabhupāda: Huh? Formerly he was . . . (break) Rāmeśvara: If we want to have the books printed very quickly, they have to be printed in America, the new books. Prabhupāda: And the reprint there. Rāmeśvara: Yes, we can do that. Prabhupāda: So why not give them some book also for ordinary? Rāmeśvara: We are giving them a lot of business this year in Japan. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We must deal with them very nicely. They have helped in the beginning. Yes. I gave them only $5,000 start, and I gave the order for 52,000, but they supplied. They got money. They were confident that we shall not cheat them. So our relation is very nice. So utilize it. (break) . . . girl was, that the Japanese, they like our publication. *Rāmeśvara: Girl. Mūla*-prakṛti . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rāmeśvara: That girl that was seeing you in Hawaii, Mūla*-prakṛti . *Prabhupāda: Yes. She was very enthusiastic. Mūla*-prakṛti . Where is Yadubara prabhu? Where is? Jayatīrtha: He's right here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are feeling now nice? Yadubara: Yes. I'm much improved. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So everyone feeling nice? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are also feeling nice? Viśākhā: Now I am all right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viśākhā: Now I am all right. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Rāmeśvara: The devotees at the Press will not feel nice until all your books are published. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: They are working now night shifts also. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rāmeśvara: Twenty*-four hours. *Jayatīrtha: Twenty*-four hours on the composers, so that we can take full advantage of the machines. Prabhupāda: And Hayagrīva prabhu, how many papers you are finishing? You can finish fifty papers at least. Hayagrīva: I am trying. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hayagrīva: I am trying. One hour a tape. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hayagrīva finished volume six of Madhya-līlā today. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hayagrīva finished editing volume six of Madhya-līlā today. *Prabhupāda: Oh, volume six, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Out of nine volumes, Hayagrīva has finished six of Madhya-līlā . Prabhupāda: Altogether there will be nine volumes? *Rāmeśvara: Of Madhya*-līlā . *Jayatīrtha: Madhya*-līlā , all nine volumes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: And four volumes Antya-līlā . Jayatīrtha: Altogether sixteen volumes. Prabhupāda: Where is our Gargamuni? Bhavānanda: He is in the east. Buffalo. Prabhupāda: Preaching? Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are with him, Sudāmā? Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is going on nice? Sudāmā: Yes. (break) *Jayatīrtha: . . . told me that the whole Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , editing, will be finished by the end of August. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jayatīrtha: All of the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta editing will be finished by the end of August. Prabhupāda: They are coming also, Nitāi . . .? Jayatīrtha: Nitāi and Jagannātha are going to be coming . . . Rāmeśvara: In about three days. Jayatīrtha: By the end of July they'll be . . . so it is going very fast now. Prabhupāda: Very good. Tūrṇaṁ yateta . We should try very fast before the next death comes. And death will come. So we shall prepare in such a way that before the next death comes over, we finish our Kṛṣṇa consciousness business and go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is perfection. Because if we wait for another birth, maybe we may not get. Even Bhārata Mahārāja, he also slipped. He became a deer. So we should always be vigilant that, "We have got this opportunity, human form of life. Let us utilize it to the fullest extent and be fit for going back to home, back to Godhead." That is intelligence. Not that, "All right, I shall get again chance next birth." That is not very good policy. Tūrṇam. Tūrṇam means very hastily finish. Tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyuṁ pated yāvat (SB 11.9.29). (sound of men practicing karate) These people are wasting time, as if they will live forever. (chuckles) What is the use of this kar . . .? Kara? Jayatīrtha: Karate. Prabhupāda: Karate. It is very popular in Mexico. Jayatīrtha: Everywhere. *Prabhupāda: But will that method save from death? When the death will come, will the sound "Go!" (laughter) will save them? This is foolishness. Instead of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, they are resounding some sound, thinking that the sound will save him. This is called foolishness, mūḍha . (karate men begin shouting) (laughter) Piśācī pāile jane mati*-cchanna haya (Prema-vivarta). And if you ask them that, "Why you are sounding so loudly? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will laugh. (chuckles) Viṣṇujana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura mean when he said: "I am going, my work unfinished"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Viṣṇujana: When Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura stated that he was leaving this planet with his work unfinished? *Prabhupāda: Then let us finish. We are descendant of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So he kept unfinished so that we shall get the chance to finish it. That is his mercy. He could have finished immediately. He is Vaiṣṇava, he is all*-powerful. But he gave us chance that, "You foolish people, you all also work." That is his mercy. (Video end): *So we should pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that, "We are your grandchildren, great*-grandchildren, so we have got some right to beg some mercy from you. The grandchildren get some indulgence from the grandfather. So I pray like that." It is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's mercy. A Vaiṣṇava can . . . Kṛṣṇa doesn't require anyone's help. *Still, He is asking, "Surrender to Me." He doesn't require anyone's surrender. But it is for him good, one who surrenders. Not Kṛṣṇa is in need of anyone's service. He is complete. But He comes as if He is in helpless condition and asking for us to surrender. So that is for his good. One who is surrendered, he'll get the result. Kṛṣṇa is self*-sufficient. Similarly, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is self-sufficient. But if he said that "I keeping unfinished," that means he gave us the chance, the opportunity. So we should always pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura to be merciful upon us so that we can execute his unfinished task. That should be our . . . and never we should think that "What Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura could not finish, I have finished." (laughs) Don't think like that. It is not like that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, eka ki āmāra nāhi pāya . You have not given index. That I have instructed. You should now prepare index. Jayādvaita: That is being done for all the volumes. Prabhupāda: All the volumes must have index. *Rādhā*-vallabha: All the Caitanya-caritāmṛta volumes have indexes. Jayādvaita: Bengali index. Prabhupāda: This is the last one. Rāmeśvara: Bengali and Sanskrit verses, and then general index. Prabhupāda: Is there any ekaki āmāra nāhi pāya mora? Eka ki ? *Viṣṇujana: Eke ke milila prabhu saba bhakta*-gaṇa (CC Adi 17.79). Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. (break) . . . observing ekādaśī today? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Arrival -- June 20, 1975, Los Angeles Jayatīrtha: Now everything is very nice. Prabhupāda: When you have come? Brahmānanda: I came Wednesday evening. Prabhupāda: So you look bright. Brahmānanda: Oh, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, how is your preaching going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, thank you. (break) Prabhupāda: Nice now. Yes. So Sudāmā is doing nice? Jayatīrtha: Yes, he seems to be. He gave a very nice lecture the other night. He seems to be very—how would you say it—repatriated. (break) Prabhupāda: . . . is behind. Why? Jayatīrtha: Well, now we are catching up. Now things are becoming much more organized. But at the end in New York, things were very disorganized, and nothing was getting done. Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda Mahārāja, you kindly inquire where is the bottleneck. Brahmānanda: Yes, from what I have seen already. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: From what I have seen already, they are doing much more than before. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you are behind so many books. Brahmānanda: They are giving one book now to the printer. Prabhupāda: Why they are seventeen books behind? *Brahmānanda: Hayagrīva is today finished the sixth volume of Madhya*-līlā . There are nine volumes altogether. Prabhupāda: No. I have heard that seventeen books are behind. Why? Very slow. You should rather want me to give more matter. But you are behind. What is the reason? Editorial department? Jayatīrtha: Now the editorial department is doing very good. Prabhupāda: But you are behind so many books. Jayatīrtha: The only thing which is a little slow now is the Bengali departments. But now, with Nitāi and Jagannātha coming, it should be . . . Prabhupāda: Bengali? Jayatīrtha: The Bengali editing is a little behind still. But the other departments are going at rate of two books a month. If we can now just bring the Bengali department . . . Prabhupāda: Books are not coming out. Jayatīrtha: No, because during the whole . . . until they left New York, hardly anything was getting done, and then they went to India, the whole Press, so nothing was getting done, and then they moved. So now they've been here about three weeks. Since they've been here almost one whole book has been finished, and the rate has become very much increased. *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavatam , Fifth Canto is finished, Sixth Canto half*-finished. *Jayatīrtha: Sixth Canto half*-finished? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: That's very nice. Prabhupāda: You have finished only Fourth Canto. Jayatīrtha: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Fifth Canto not yet published. So Haṁsadūta has sent some copies of xerox. At all universities they are giving standing order—Oxford University, London University. In London, I hear, England, they are also giving standing order for Bhāgavatam and Caitanya*-caritāmṛta . Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. That's a fact. Satsvarūpa is coming tonight. Prabhupāda: And Dr. Judah has written one very nice book. I have read it. Brahmānanda: Dr. Judah's book. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have read it. Did you like that book? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jayatīrtha: He's coming here in four days to see you. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very scholarly written, and he has appreciated our . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've met him many times. Every day we are performing the festival, kīrtana . He is very favorable. *Prabhupāda: He's a good man. He has studied the movement very fairly. He is only surprised, "How these drug*-addicted hippies have become devotee?" That is his surprise. He has mentioned that, that "We appreciate your movement, that you have turned so many drug-addicted hippies into devotee of Kṛṣṇa and in the service of humanity." That they are appreciating. And that is the fact. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ ( SB 5.18.12). If one is turned into devotee, then all the good qualities automatically become manifest. *That is the verdict of Bhāgavata. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā . Anyone who is not a devotee, his material qualification has no value. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ . He is hovering over the mental plane. Therefore in your country, Western country, the so-called big, big philosophers, scientists, they could not do anything tangible, because they are hovering on the mental plane. (breaks squeal) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Manorathena. Mana means mind, and ratha means car. They are driving on the mental car. So mind is material. (pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—selling more books? Jayatīrtha: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja is selling the most books. Prabhupāda: He is collecting $30,000? Jayatīrtha: How much you are collecting, Tamāla, last month? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we collected a lot. Prabhupāda: Huh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The collection is very good. The books are selling. Prabhupāda: Selling amongst public or educational institution? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are selling to all classes of people—big books and small books. Prabhupāda: You have got now proper engagement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I started by doing this. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I started by doing this. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. No. You are feeling happy in this engagement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm happy to serve you, Prabhupāda. Whatever pleases you makes me happy. We are getting many new men. Now we have about 115 men. Prabhupāda: So, another bus? (chuckles) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, more and more buses. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Your country is full of buses. Yasmin deśe yad ācaraḥ . Your country is of motorcar, so take advantage of motorcar and utilize it for Kṛṣṇa. That is the tactics. Not that, "Oh, we have become Vaiṣṇava. We don't touch motorcar. It is material." This is not our philosophy. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta*-vairāgyam ucyate (Rūpa Gosvāmī). We can utilize everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa because we see everything Kṛṣṇa's. If the motorcar is there, it is for Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Karāndhara came there. Jayatīrtha: Karāndhara came. Yes. Prabhupāda: So he said: "I am again surrendered." (laughs) Jayatīrtha: I hope so. Prabhupāda: So he has gone to Tehran? Jayatīrtha: Yes. A letter just came from him recently saying that he was very enthusiastic in his service there. *Prabhupāda: He is business*-minded. Let him do business for Kṛṣṇa. Jayatīrtha: Yes. He says there is so much money there they don't know how to spend it. In Iran people have so much money they don't what to do with it. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are getting money for nothing. (laughs) Jayatīrtha: Yes. Right. It's coming out of the ground. Prabhupāda: And the Bengali saying, dhula mati bhatte kare mata : "They are catching dust and it is turning into coin." This proverb is there, dhula mati bhatte kare mato . He is thinking that, "I am taking some dust, but when it is in hand, it is coin." That is good time. And when it is bad time, if you catch coin and when it is in your hand, it is dust. We should think that time may also come. Yes. Because after all, it is Kṛṣṇa's desire, turn dust into coin, to turn coin into dust. So we should be always careful. If we remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the coin will never turn into dust. Otherwise it can be turned. So you American, you are now full of coins. Before turning into dust, catch Kṛṣṇa with the coin: it will never turn into dust; it will remain coin. Hmm? I am very hopeful of the Americans. Because you are so nice devotees, you can keep your country coinful, no dustful. India is giving up Kṛṣṇa, and therefore they are turning into dust. Jayatīrtha: So much dust. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole thing is being done by the mercy of your books, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Well, it is not my book; it is Kṛṣṇa's book. I am trying my best to present it as it is, that's all. That much you can say my, but there is nothing mine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The effect of these books is hard to perceive immediately, because we can't imagine how . . . so many millions of books have gone out. In the future they will all fructify as devotees, the people who have read them. *Prabhupāda: Yes. When they will read, then they will get. Nowadays in the Sixth Canto, Fourth Chapter, the soul and how the soul is covered, that is being described wonderfully. Śrīmad*-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam (SB 12.13.18). Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām . It is written by the most learned Vyāsadeva, vidvāṁs , and sātvata-saṁhitām . How merciful he was. He is still living, Vyāsadeva. He is still existing. Do you remember this verse? It is in the First Canto. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First Canto. Prabhupāda: Anartha . The soul has been embarrassed, the unnecessary things. Just like a man is within the huge garbage. What is his position? If . . . you have got your garbage car, so within that, (chuckles) if a man is pushed . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Abominable. *Prabhupāda: It is like that. Twenty*-four elements. Five material elements, three subtle elements, then five working senses and five all knowledge-gathering senses—how many? Jayatīrtha: Eighteen. Prabhupāda: Eighteen? No. Jayatīrtha: So far. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-three, I think. Five gross elements, five senses . . . five knowledge-gathering senses, and five working senses, fifteen . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then the objects . . . Jayatīrtha: Three subtle . . . *Prabhupāda: The mind, ego and mahat*-tattva , eighteen, yes. And then five sense objects—the rūpa, rasa , form, taste, like that. Then twenty-three. Jayatīrtha: The aggregate, pradhāna . *Prabhupāda: Pradhāna , and then the soul, twenty*-five. Twenty-four and three guṇas . Three guṇas: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa . Twenty-seven. So twenty-seven layers of garbage. Underneath, the soul is there. What he will do? He is a small particle, soul, and he is covered with so many material elements. To come out of it is very, very difficult. But if one is engaged in devotional service he can come out immediately. Just like when one is spiritually perfect, he goes immediately to Kṛṣṇa, penetrating these material coverings of the universe. Immediately. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), immediately. That is spiritual force. So can you give me a list how much money you have to realize from our devotees who have taken money, loan? Jayatīrtha: Who have taken money in loan? You mean unauthorized loan? Prabhupāda: Not unauthorized, authorized. Jayatīrtha: Oh, how much Book Trust has loaned . . . Prabhupāda: Unauthorized also? There are? Jayatīrtha: How much Book Trust loans there are. You want to see the list of Book Trust loans? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Jayatīrtha: Yes, we can give you that list. Prabhupāda: There is unauthorized loan also? Jayatīrtha: I thought you were . . . sometimes in the past from time to time these things have gone on. Prabhupāda: Past is all right. Have you received any news from Bombay? Brahmānanda: Yes, there's two letter from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. Pālikā brought them. Pālikā has come. Prabhupāda: Oh. So what is the position there? Brahmānanda: Well, I haven't read the letters yet, but she was saying that on the whole, Mr. Mhatre now is diminishing. They have met with his superior in the party, and the superior is very much . . . he's not happy with Mr. Mhatre's activities and his reputation, and he says that in the forthcoming election he may not even put him on the election ballot. Prabhupāda: That will be right punishment for him. Then he will understand. That will be more than death. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for a politician, that's the worst. Prabhupāda: Politicians, if they are refused political seat, that is more than death. Just like Kṛṣṇa was advising Arjuna that, "You are known as a great hero, and if you don't fight then they will blaspheme you like anything. So that will be more than death. Better die. When they will say nindanti , 'Oh, the Arjuna has become a coward. He could not fight. He will die,' so that blaspheme will be more than death." So by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it has come to the notice of the . . . Brahmānanda: The other party members, the party superiors, they are . . . his reputation is damaging their party. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: His activities are so unscrupulous. *Prabhupāda: And what about the N.O.C.? N.O? No*-Objection Certificate? *Brahmānanda: I don't know the details, but Pālikā said that they are . . . the holes have been dug and they're expecting to put the foundation in before the monsoon. And that there was some attempt to stop the some digging, but that has been defeated. When I was there, there was some question about getting the No*-Objection Certificate for the already-existing temple. Prabhupāda: Existing temple? Brahmānanda: Well, the little temple we have there now. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every year it has to be renewed. *Brahmānanda: Yeah. So this year they have, by some trick, they have made it that the police must give their No*-Objection Certificate. Usually that is not required each year. Prabhupāda: They are harassing us in so many ways. Only in Bombay. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means if we become successful finally, it will be a tremendous success, I think. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something very big will happen there. Brahmānanda: They've concluded that the opposition is not from the central government but from the local. Because the projects are going on without being hampered in any other places in India. It is only in Bombay that we are getting this difficulty. Prabhupāda: In central government that Indira Gandhi is now . . . Brahmānanda: Her position is now jeopardized. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? I didn't know that. Prabhupāda: She is convicted. Jayatīrtha: Election fraud. Prabhupāda: That election was not properly . . . Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who has convicted her? Brahmānanda: High court. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How was . . . I am surprised they could do that. She's practically like a dictator. Prabhupāda: And she has been done in his (her) own city, Allahabad. Brahmānanda: They have lost the election, Congress Party. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this is a recent, new election. Brahmānanda: Yes, in Gujarat. Prabhupāda: Now our next attempt will be Kurukṣetra . . . Brahmānanda: There is some proposal there? *Prabhupāda: . . . where Kṛṣṇa personally spoke Bhagavad*-gītā . Recently I have been in Kurukṣetra. You were . . . yes. So I have decided to do something there. Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa personally spoke there. Our two movements—we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and we are holding Ratha-yātrā—all these two incidences took place at Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra is so important. Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and His sister, on some occasion of lunar eclipse, they came from Dvārakā in a chariot, ratha , two brothers and sister, and that is the occasion of Ratha-yātrā. And the Vṛndāvana inhabitants, especially Rādhārāṇī, they came from Vṛndāvana to see Kṛṣṇa after long time. And she pleaded that, "Kṛṣṇa, You are the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rādhārāṇī . . ." (coughing) Is there any water? No. "But this place is not the proper place. Let Us go to Vṛndāvana." That is Mahāprabhu's feeling. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You've expressed that in Madhya*-līlā , throughout there. *Prabhupāda: That Mahāprabhu's feeling of Kṛṣṇa is like that. Therefore He took part in the Ratha*-yātrā and invited Kṛṣṇa, "Come to Vṛndāvana." So these two important things took place in the Kurukṣetra. So we must have a very big temple there, and a varṇāśrama college. This is my desire. Kṛṣṇa's direct instruction, Bhagavad-gītā . It should be a historical . . . it is historical. People should come here as the most important historical place. And Gītā is well known all over the world. And Gītā begins with the word dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). So Kurukṣetra, in that sense very important. Brahmānanda: That was one of the first things you told us when you came, that Kurukṣetra is an actual place. There's a railway station. People can go there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: We had never known that. We thought it was something mythological or . . . Jayatīrtha: Allegorical. Prabhupāda: That is not. These political leaders, they have made it. (reading sign) Carpeterica. They manufacture carpet? We are already on the Venice road? No? Jayatīrtha: Yes. This is Venice Boulevard. Prabhupāda: You have got my passbook? Jayatīrtha: From the Liberty Bank? Prabhupāda: Not Liberty. Bank of America? Jayatīrtha: Passbook. Prabhupāda: Investment passbook? Jayatīrtha: Oh, from that savings account. Prabhupāda: I sent it to be made . . . for making it up to date. Jayatīrtha: You mailed it? Prabhupāda: No, I gave to Gurukṛpa, and he sent through somebody. Jayatīrtha: He did not give it to me. Maybe he gave it to Rāmeśvara. I'll check with him. I think he must have forgotten. Prabhupāda: So the engineering block is now occupied? Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. As we go by it, you can see the big sign is there, "Bhaktivedanta Book Trust." Just over here to the left. (devotees exclaim) Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nice. You have never seen . . . *Prabhupāda: So that Bhaktivedanta go*-down has come here? No. *Jayatīrtha: No, go*-down is still there. This building is not large enough for that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen this building yet, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, here is for lease. (Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Jayatīrtha discuss in background about leasing one of the buildings for a restaurant) (break) (Video start): Prabhupāda: . . . propensity, the tendency is there. Naturally I want to love somebody. It is not unnatural. When that love is reposed to Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. The Māyāvādī, they are frustrated, therefore they want to make this love into zero. They cannot understand Kṛṣṇa's love with gopīs. They think it is another edition of this material . . . oh, how are you, Hayagrīva prabhu? How are you? You look better. You are looking better, brighter than when I saw you in New Vrindaban last. You have got so much talents for serving Kṛṣṇa. Everyone has got. That I am speaking. We have to utilize it. From the very beginning I met you, I instructed to edit. That was the starting of our Back to Godhead. He is good typist also. You know that? (laughter) I think he is the best of all of our men. He can type very swiftly and correctly. I think in our group Hayagrīva prabhu and Satsvarūpa Mahārāja are very good typist. And Jayādvaita, I think you are also, no? Jayādvaita: Yes. *Prabhupāda: You are good typist? (laughter) So why you have not published Bali*-mardana's article? *Jayādvaita: Bali*-mardana's article. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: We were waiting. We weren't sure if it was appropriate to publish it. Prabhupāda: He thought disappointed. He has published. He has written very nicely. Jayādvaita: He has written nicely? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: We can publish it? Prabhupāda: So we should . . . yes, here is the . . . what is that? Brahmānanda: "Illusion and Reality," two essays . . . Prabhupāda: He has presented very nicely. So we should encourage our men. Jayādvaita: Publish it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And our men, all our men should write. Otherwise how we shall know that he has understood the philosophy? Writing means śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Śravaṇam means hearing from the authority, and again repeat it. This is our business, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), about Viṣṇu, not for any politician or any other man. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ , about Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu. So that is success. Hear and repeat, hear and repeat. You haven't got to manufacture. Any one of us, simply if you reproduce the purport which I have given in Bhāgavata , you become a good speaker. What I am doing? I am doing the same thing, writing the same thing, so that modern man can understand. Otherwise we are repeating the same thing. They are repeating also same thing, sense gratification. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But because that is material, they are not getting happiness. But the spiritual thing, we are chanting the same Hare Kṛṣṇa, simply repeating, but we are getting transcendental bliss. What we are doing? Same "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." So process is the same, the subject matter is different. So why you are behind publication? Now all the big men are here. Why our books are behind? Why? Here the editors are there. I don't think there is any scarcity. Rāmeśvara: Now there is no scarcity. Prabhupāda: Huh? Formerly he was . . . (break) Rāmeśvara: If we want to have the books printed very quickly, they have to be printed in America, the new books. Prabhupāda: And the reprint there. Rāmeśvara: Yes, we can do that. Prabhupāda: So why not give them some book also for ordinary? Rāmeśvara: We are giving them a lot of business this year in Japan. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We must deal with them very nicely. They have helped in the beginning. Yes. I gave them only $5,000 start, and I gave the order for 52,000, but they supplied. They got money. They were confident that we shall not cheat them. So our relation is very nice. So utilize it. (break) . . . girl was, that the Japanese, they like our publication. *Rāmeśvara: Girl. Mūla*-prakṛti . Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rāmeśvara: That girl that was seeing you in Hawaii, Mūla*-prakṛti . *Prabhupāda: Yes. She was very enthusiastic. Mūla*-prakṛti . Where is Yadubara prabhu? Where is? Jayatīrtha: He's right here. Prabhupāda: Oh. You are feeling now nice? Yadubara: Yes. I'm much improved. Prabhupāda: That's nice. So everyone feeling nice? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: You are also feeling nice? Viśākhā: Now I am all right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viśākhā: Now I am all right. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice. Rāmeśvara: The devotees at the Press will not feel nice until all your books are published. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's nice. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: They are working now night shifts also. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rāmeśvara: Twenty*-four hours. *Jayatīrtha: Twenty*-four hours on the composers, so that we can take full advantage of the machines. Prabhupāda: And Hayagrīva prabhu, how many papers you are finishing? You can finish fifty papers at least. Hayagrīva: I am trying. Prabhupāda: Eh? Hayagrīva: I am trying. One hour a tape. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hayagrīva finished volume six of Madhya-līlā today. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Hayagrīva finished editing volume six of Madhya-līlā today. *Prabhupāda: Oh, volume six, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta ? *Rādhā*-vallabha: Yes. Out of nine volumes, Hayagrīva has finished six of Madhya-līlā . Prabhupāda: Altogether there will be nine volumes? *Rāmeśvara: Of Madhya*-līlā . *Jayatīrtha: Madhya*-līlā , all nine volumes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: And four volumes Antya-līlā . Jayatīrtha: Altogether sixteen volumes. Prabhupāda: Where is our Gargamuni? Bhavānanda: He is in the east. Buffalo. Prabhupāda: Preaching? Bhavānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you are with him, Sudāmā? Sudāmā: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Everything is going on nice? Sudāmā: Yes. (break) *Jayatīrtha: . . . told me that the whole Caitanya*-caritāmṛta , editing, will be finished by the end of August. Prabhupāda: Hmm? *Jayatīrtha: All of the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta editing will be finished by the end of August. Prabhupāda: They are coming also, Nitāi . . .? Jayatīrtha: Nitāi and Jagannātha are going to be coming . . . Rāmeśvara: In about three days. Jayatīrtha: By the end of July they'll be . . . so it is going very fast now. Prabhupāda: Very good. Tūrṇaṁ yateta . We should try very fast before the next death comes. And death will come. So we shall prepare in such a way that before the next death comes over, we finish our Kṛṣṇa consciousness business and go back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is perfection. Because if we wait for another birth, maybe we may not get. Even Bhārata Mahārāja, he also slipped. He became a deer. So we should always be vigilant that, "We have got this opportunity, human form of life. Let us utilize it to the fullest extent and be fit for going back to home, back to Godhead." That is intelligence. Not that, "All right, I shall get again chance next birth." That is not very good policy. Tūrṇam. Tūrṇam means very hastily finish. Tūrṇaṁ yateta anumṛtyuṁ pated yāvat (SB 11.9.29). (sound of men practicing karate) These people are wasting time, as if they will live forever. (chuckles) What is the use of this kar . . .? Kara? Jayatīrtha: Karate. Prabhupāda: Karate. It is very popular in Mexico. Jayatīrtha: Everywhere. *Prabhupāda: But will that method save from death? When the death will come, will the sound "Go!" (laughter) will save them? This is foolishness. Instead of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, they are resounding some sound, thinking that the sound will save him. This is called foolishness, mūḍha . (karate men begin shouting) (laughter) Piśācī pāile jane mati*-cchanna haya (Prema-vivarta). And if you ask them that, "Why you are sounding so loudly? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will laugh. (chuckles) Viṣṇujana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura mean when he said: "I am going, my work unfinished"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Viṣṇujana: When Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura stated that he was leaving this planet with his work unfinished? *Prabhupāda: Then let us finish. We are descendant of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So he kept unfinished so that we shall get the chance to finish it. That is his mercy. He could have finished immediately. He is Vaiṣṇava, he is all*-powerful. But he gave us chance that, "You foolish people, you all also work." That is his mercy. (Video end): *So we should pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that, "We are your grandchildren, great*-grandchildren, so we have got some right to beg some mercy from you. The grandchildren get some indulgence from the grandfather. So I pray like that." It is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's mercy. A Vaiṣṇava can . . . Kṛṣṇa doesn't require anyone's help. *Still, He is asking, "Surrender to Me." He doesn't require anyone's surrender. But it is for him good, one who surrenders. Not Kṛṣṇa is in need of anyone's service. He is complete. But He comes as if He is in helpless condition and asking for us to surrender. So that is for his good. One who is surrendered, he'll get the result. Kṛṣṇa is self*-sufficient. Similarly, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is self-sufficient. But if he said that "I keeping unfinished," that means he gave us the chance, the opportunity. So we should always pray to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura to be merciful upon us so that we can execute his unfinished task. That should be our . . . and never we should think that "What Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura could not finish, I have finished." (laughs) Don't think like that. It is not like that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, eka ki āmāra nāhi pāya . You have not given index. That I have instructed. You should now prepare index. Jayādvaita: That is being done for all the volumes. Prabhupāda: All the volumes must have index. *Rādhā*-vallabha: All the Caitanya-caritāmṛta volumes have indexes. Jayādvaita: Bengali index. Prabhupāda: This is the last one. Rāmeśvara: Bengali and Sanskrit verses, and then general index. Prabhupāda: Is there any ekaki āmāra nāhi pāya mora? Eka ki ? *Viṣṇujana: Eke ke milila prabhu saba bhakta*-gaṇa (CC Adi 17.79). Prabhupāda: No, no, not that. (break) . . . observing ekādaśī today? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So . . . Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end) Room Conversation -- August 12, 1975, Paris (with French translator) Guest: (French) *Bhagavān: He said for forty*-five years now he has not eaten any meat, he has been vegetarian. *Prabhupāda: Oh, you are forty*-five percent advanced. Let them come forward. Oh, they are chanting. Very good. Bhagavān: Many young people. You speak Italian. You speak French? English? Habla espanol? Prabhupāda: Which language? Devotee (1): Italian. Prabhupāda: Italian. Ah. Bhagavān: The Hare Kṛṣṇa, that is universal language everyone understands. You are from Rome? Guest: Yes. Bhagavān: We have a temple there. Guest: Yes, I know. Very good. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Come on. Bhagavān: Umāpati is nicely editing these books also. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: He is editing the philosophy, making sure everything is exact. Prabhupāda: You are doing good service. Now you have got good engagement. Umāpati: Everything is very nice here. Prabhupāda: Stay here. Where is your wife? Umāpati: She went to the farm, so I guess she just hasn't come back yet. Prabhupāda: Oh, she went to the farm? Umāpati: Yes. *Bhagavān: And she is translating Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhagavān: She is helping to translate the *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: And Jyotirmayī? *Bhagavān: She is doing the distribution of Bhagavad*-gītās in stores, and she is meeting important people. Whatever articles are written about us, she is answering the articles in the paper. Nice service. This Europe is a very good field for making devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bhagavān: You are Italian also? Woman: No. Bhagavān: From where? Woman: I'm from California. Woman (2): I am (indistinct) sister. Bhagavān: Oh, (indistinct) sister. It is Haihaya's wife's sister. Prabhupāda: Oh. She is French? No. Bhagavān: No, American. Prabhupāda: And this boy? Devotee (1): He's from Morocco. Prabhupāda: Morocco. Bhagavān: They speak French? Devotee (1): Yeah, they all speak French. [break] Bhagavān: ...that all over the world there are actually devotees of Kṛṣṇa and that they are just waiting for the saṅkīrtana parties to pick them up. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nitya*-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti is there in everywhere. French Devotee: Are you coming back in September? Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhagavān: The devotees want to know if you're coming back. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: Many people are still talking about that engagement you had in that big hall last year. They're still talking about that engagement. It was very successful. Devotee(1): Many devotees joined afterward. French Devotee: In the street we still see pictures of this. Bhagavān: (to guest) You have read any books of ours? Woman: (indistinct) *Devotee (1): Many people are very anxious for the French Bhagavad*-gītā. We've already received many letters in the mail asking for copies of it. *Devotee (2): One advanced order for Bhagavad*-gītā, eighty copies from a book shop. Prabhupāda: Here? Devotee (2): In Africa. Prabhupāda: You can advertise in paper. You will get good orders. Bhagavān: They have said that this Aurobindo copy, this is almost out of print now. *Devotee (1): There is no edition of Bhagavad*-gītā like your edition ever in France. This is the first time. *Prabhupāda: Aurobindo is hodgepodge. It is simply vocabulary. No concrete contribution. Simply words. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to learn the science, one must go to the bona fide guru. Otherwise it is not possible. In the Bhagavad-gītā, find this verse. French Devotee: Chapter Four? Devotee (1): You should read the French. (French devotee reads Sanskrit and French translation) Prabhupāda: Purport. (devotee reads Purport in French) You come here. Sit facing them. If they have got any question about this? Yogeśvara (translating): He said he would be happy if the spiritual master was speaking French because Kṛṣṇa is only speaking French now. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa speaks in all languages, and He speaks so perfectly that everyone thinks that He speaks only in his language. He could speak with the birds even. There is a Sanskrit word, babhudak. This means one who can speak all languages. So it is stated there in the Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu, Nectar of Devotion, that on the bank of Yamunā He was one day talking with a bird. Every living being has got a different language. Yogeśvara (translating): He says but they are a little bit jealous of the Americans who speak English, which is the language that you speak. Prabhupāda: The America is my fatherland. My motherland is in India, and America is my fatherland. Bhagavān: We are trying to make one country. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when scientists and astrologers are looking into the heavens, sometimes they see what they say to be flying saucers, different flying objects, lights in the sky. Do we have any explanation for this? Prabhupāda: Everything is flying, all these planets, they are flying. *Devotee (3): Sometimes they are zig*-zagging very fast across the sky (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Maybe there is (indistinct). Why not? Yogeśvara (to guests): This is a wonderful opportunity also if you'd like to ask any questions of Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's a rare opportunity that he's here, you can speak with him. (translates) *Prabhupāda: You can read this verse. Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānam. Yogeśvara: Thirteenth chapter? Kṣetra... Prabhupāda: Go ahead, jñānam. *Yogeśvara: Kṣetra*-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi? 13.3. Prabhupāda: Um hm. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda: Go on reading. Yogeśvara: (continues reading purport in French) Prabhupāda: Finish. Yogeśvara: (Finishes reading purport in French) *Prabhupāda: So God is situated with me. I am also within this body, God is also within this body. Find out this verse. Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Devotee: 18.58? Yogeśvara: 18.61. Prabhupāda: Purport. Yogeśvara: (reads Purport in French) *Prabhupāda: So the God, He is also with me always as friend. So one, it is said in the Upaniṣad, there are two birds in one tree. The two birds means I, individual soul, and God, the Supreme Soul. The individual soul is limited within this body. And God is everywhere, in every body, in every atomic particle, everywhere. Because I am individual soul, I can understand my bodily pains and pleasure. But I cannot understand your bodily pains and pleasure. But God, being all*-pervading, He can understand my pains and pleasure, He can understand your pains and pleasure, He can understand cats' and dogs' pains and..., everyone. This is the difference between me and God. Sometimes they mistake, because God is also within this body, I am also within this body, therefore they think that there is no other individual soul than God, therefore I am God. So if I am God, then you are also God. And if there is more than one God, there is not God. God is one. There cannot be two. So if I think I am God, then everyone is also God, so God becomes plural, so there is not God. God is one. Therefore, God is great, we are small. In quality we are one. Just like the president and the citizen, as man they are one. But in power, the citizen and the president, they are different. So these things can be understood if one is sober and very great thinker: they can understand that God is situated with me, He can help me also. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda: Purport. Yogeśvara: (reads Purport in French. Prabhupāda asks people outside room to stop talking twice during reading) Prabhupāda: So if we accept this process and advance in devotional service, then God will talk with us. He is with us, every one of us, and He is guiding us, but He gives directly guiding to the devotee. This is practical solution. If you become devotee, God will talk with you and give you direct instruction. Any question? Yogeśvara (translating): This lady asks when one is too old and with too many responsibilities, what can one do? *Prabhupāda: There is no responsibilities, all false, māyā. Everyone is maintained by God. It is our false conception that "I am giving protection to anybody." That is false. Just like a man is diseased and we are giving help, medical help, first*-class physician, first-class medicine, still he dies. So if God desires that this man must die now, your medical help or physician's help will not act. And if God desires that this man must live, then even without your medical help and physician, he will live. Then where is your responsibility? Woman: Are you against medical help? I mean, you want just to let Kṛṣṇa do His way and not let the doctors help at all? I mean, don't go a doctor, just rely on Kṛṣṇa to help you? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will help you. It is Kṛṣṇa's help that will be counted, not your help or my help. Therefore, it is said in the Bhagavad*-gītā, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati Yogeśvara: *Prabhupāda: So long I think that I am the friend or father of my children, I will have to give..., help them, so I am thinking falsely responsible. Actually I cannot do anything. Therefore, the so*-called responsibility is māyā. My real responsibility is how to realize God. That is my real. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says openly, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam. (aside:) Find out. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda: So we have no responsibility. It is false, māyā. Our only responsibility is how to become obedient servant of Kṛṣṇa. So that is only responsibility, one responsibility. Just like the political parties, they are advertising, different political party, "I am your friend. Give me vote." How he can be friend? Just like in America, the Nixon took vote, he was advertising "America requires Nixon." I have seen that advertised when he was being elected. But after some time, the people found that he is not required, "Get out." So nobody can become, because everyone is imperfect. How one can become friend or responsible for another person? Just like in your country, in Europe and America, so many hippies are there. Their parents are responsible, rich men, able men, but why they have become hippies? Is it not a fact? The father does not want that his son should become a hippie, but still he is becoming hippie. Where is his responsibility? You cannot give protection to your son. In spite of your desire, you are disappointed. So where is your responsibility? Who can answer? Where is your responsibility? You don't really like that your son should become a hippie, but you cannot protect him. Yogeśvara (translating): He says because we have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, no God consciousness, therefore we are responsible for not having been able to save them. Prabhupāda: That is false. That I am saying. This is false responsibility. Actually you cannot become responsible. You have no power. Everyone is under the laws of nature. Just like some birds flying in the sky. The father, mother, and children, but nobody is responsible for anyone. When there is danger in the sky, you cannot give protection. Suppose one bird is hit, he is falling. The father, mother, and others, they cannot give any protection. He has to become responsible for himself. Just like the aeroplane. When the one plane is in danger, no other plane come and help it. Even if you see that the other plane is flying a few yards and if it is in fire, you cannot help. There is one nice story that one hunter was hunting birds and he spread his network. So when the children of the parent birds, they become victimized by the network. So when the parents came, they saw, "Oh, my children have been caught up by the net of the hunter." So mother became very overwhelmed. She went to rescue them and she also become victimized. Then the father was intelligent, he saw that "My children, my wife, they all have been victimized, and if I foolishly go to save them, then I will be also victimized. Let me go this way." Take sannyāsa and go. No responsibility. It is not possible when everyone is captured by the laws of nature. How you can help and what is your responsibility? So this is called māyā. The children are thinking that "My father and mother will give me protection," and the father and mother is thinking that "There is my responsibility." This is called māyā. With this false responsibility, they are packed up in a home. But when death comes, nobody can help. Nobody. This is happening every day, every moment, and still we are falsely thinking I am responsible. So what is the value of your responsibility? If you cannot give protection, then what is the value of your responsibility? There is no responsibility. The only responsibility is that I have got this human form of life. Even in this life I do not realize God, then I remain cats and dogs, that's all. This is the only responsibility. If you miss this opportunity, then I do not know what I am going to become in my next life. So gaining or losing this opportunity, that is my responsibility. If I am not responsible... [break] *But if the head, king, or president excuses him, he can save. So nobody in this material world can transcend or overcome the laws of material nature. But if one is devotee, by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, he can. This is the sum and substance. Therefore, we have no responsibility. If we have touched fire, then it must burn. So whatever we may be, very big man, we cannot violate the laws of nature. Tit for tat we accept. So those who are violating laws of material nature, they suffer continuously. But when he takes to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet shelter, sincerely surrendering, then he can be saved. Otherwise not. So everyone should become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and he should try to save his relatives, friends, husband, wife, children from these clutches of laws of material nature by educating him to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the only responsibility. That is intelligence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, na ca tasmāt manuṣyeṣu kaścit me priya*-kṛttamaḥ. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasmāt manuṣyeṣu, find out. Yogeśvara: Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu... Prabhupāda: Find out. Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda: So anyone who is trying to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness he is very, very dear to Kṛṣṇa. Because that is the real welfare work. All bogus. That is a fact. Everyone is under the laws of material nature. How you can do benefit to him? It is very powerful. The same example, the man is condemned by law to be hanged, you cannot save him however rich man you may be. It is not possible. But the state executive head can excuse. Similarly, you cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa's order. So if you want to help your relatives, your friends, your..., then you must become Kṛṣṇa conscious and make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the only way. This is the only responsibility. There is no other responsibility. And to serve this responsibility you can do everything. To make a person Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can give him help, you can give him education, you can give him money, you can..., to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. Not for sense gratification. Then it will be useless. He is going hell, you are going hell, that's all. That's all. All other bogus. (end) Room Conversation -- January 27, 1975, Tokyo Prabhupāda: ...flowers, fruits, and temperature is changing, it is rotating. Very fixed up, very timely. How can you say there is no control? How can you say? The animals cannot say, but any human being can say, "Yes, there is control. Otherwise how things are going on like this?" [break] ...convince him there is surely controller, convince him. [break] ...to beginning of this chapter that there is no controller. Asatyam jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. Where is that verse, find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram. Nitāi: It's text 8. Prabhupāda: Ah. What does it say? Nitāi: It says: Prabhupāda: Translation. Nitāi: "They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust." *Prabhupāda: They think, the asura, that is the distinction between asura and sura. The asura will say, "There is no control." Anīśvaram. Īśvaram means controller, anīśvaram means without any controller. Then how it has come into existence, how it is working so nicely? So they answer it: kāma*-haitukam. Kāma-haitukam means just like a man and woman mix together, then there is sex desire and there is a production of child. There is no question of controlling. It is timely interaction of different elements. This is called kāma-haitukam. So what is that other? Asatyam... Nitāi: Asatyam apratiṣṭham. Prabhupāda: And others, other atheist in the dress of very good sannyāsī, they say jagad mithyā, mithyā. But they say also, brahma satya, they accept Brahmān. They are not so atheist, at least they accept. Then? Nitāi: Jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. *Prabhupāda: Ah, jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. There is no God, it has come automatically by interaction. But even it is so, how the interaction is taking place? That is intelligence. Interaction, just like acid and alkali. Just like oil and caustic soda. These are two chemicals and mixing them, interaction, the result is soap. Accepting this principle, but there must be a mixer, a person who is mixing. Otherwise, how the soap and oil is being mixed? The soap is there and the oil is there and the caustic soda is also there, that is material ingredient. But they are not coming together automatically. That is not possible. Where is the evidence? There are so many soap factories, and let them keep oil and caustic soda and there is no question of labor, let them become soap. Where is that evidence? But these rascals say like that. Aparaspara sambhūtam. Interaction of the two things. But where is the interaction of two things unless it is arranged by some third element? Where is the evidence? So these are foolish theories, that there is no God, things are taking place automatically and things are coming out, these are all foolish theories. There is no evidence. Pramāṇa, there must be evidence. Otherwise... Just like science means simply not to see observation that things are taking place, but experiment. It must be substantiated by experiment. Just like theoretically everyone knows that two chemicals, soda and alkali, mixes together and there is interaction, effervescence. But who is mixing the soda and alkali, er, alkali and acid? There must be. Therefore the answer is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My superintendence." That is God. Under God's superintendence things are coming. Parasya śaktiḥ vividhaiva śruyate. He has got many multi powers and energies, they are working. Just like in nowadays electronic. You type your "a" and thousand miles away another typewriter will strike immediately "a", is it not? It is called, what is called? Paramahaṁsa: Telex. Prabhupāda: Telex? Not telex. Telex is also on the same thing. Devotees: Teletype. *Prabhupāda: Teletype, yes. You push here "a" and the other end the "a" will immediately strike. There is no need of another person typing. But how it is being done? There is electronic arrangement by higher scientist. Not that, ordinary typewriter will not, no. Suppose if you keep one typewriter at your brother's place and you push it here, will it strike there? (laughter) Why? Because there is no arrangement. There is no arrangement. So these are common sense but the rascals will not understand. That without a touch of the living entity nothing can be done. The supreme living entity is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is said mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. "I am the cause of the material energy working." Parasya śaktiḥ vividhaiva śruyate. There is parasya śaktiḥ, now who can explain how this flower has come into existence? That is same thing. The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working. Just like you want to paint one nice flower, so you have to take the brush and the color and you have to endeavor. Not that automatically coming, this beautiful flower. So how do you think this beautiful flower has come automatically? This is foolishness. There is also the brush, the paint, but it is so perfect that just like you cannot see how the other typewriter is striking. You cannot say it is automatically striking. There is arrangement. But this arrangement you do not understand. Therefore you are foolish, you are thinking that this typewriter is striking automatically. It is not automatically. Here the other typewriter it is stroken and there is electric arrangement and it is striking. So you have to understand like... That is sura. And asura, they will say, "No, there is no God. It is taking automatically, it is going on," This is foolishness. The asura means foolish, first-class foolish, that's all. Why it has become so? That is explained here. That they do not know how to behave, nāpi cācāraḥ. Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate, neither they know what is the actual truth. They are defective themself and they are explaining in the defective way that so many rascal chemists they say that the chemical evolution is the cause of life. What is this nonsense? Chemical evolution, you get the chemicals and make a experiment and produce life. Then your proposal is all right that by chemical evolution there is life. No, that is not possible. You have got all the chemicals. Why don't you revive a dead man by injecting chemicals again into life, where is your power? So why do you talk foolishly like that? This should be challenged that "You are foolish number one." Actually it so happened in California. One big chemist he came there to lecture the chemical evolution, by mixing of chemical life has come into existence. So there was one student, he is my disciple, Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he said that [break] ...first-class cheater, that's all, mūḍhā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. (indistinct) ...people are suffering for want of this knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are trying to bring people in true platform of knowledge, not to increase death like these rascals and fools. That is our proposal. They are trying to obstruct us because if everyone becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious then they can't cheat anyone. Now Acyutānanda Swami, he went to some place, there was a big sannyāsī, very well-known sannyāsī. So he went to sell some books in their āśrama first of all. So one of his student, one of his disciple, he canvassed Acyutānanda, "Why don't you ask some question to Swamiji?" He clearly said, "I have nothing to question from your Swamiji. I know better than him." (laughter) So actually bring any so-called yogis, swamis or incarnation, our student will challenge him. He does not know anything. We have got such a nice book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā. By the arguments and proposition in the Bhagavad-gītā we can capture all these rascals and nonsense. All right? Yes, question is very good to understand clearly. (end) Morning Walk -- February 3, 1975, Hawaii Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: Nature's law? Prabhupāda: Yes, how the nature is working. *Guru*-kṛpa: It's working, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guru*-kṛpa: Acting under Kṛṣṇa's... Prabhupāda: Under Kṛṣṇa's plan. Therefore you cannot violate Kṛṣṇa's law. As soon as you violate nature's law, then you have to be punished. (pause) *Guru*-kṛpa: Bhagavad-gītā, that prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni... Prabhupāda: ...guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Yes, and prakṛti is working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. That means, nature's law means Kṛṣṇa's law or Kṛṣṇa's plan. So what is the Kṛṣṇa's plan? What Kṛṣṇa wants? *Guru*-kṛpa: Kṛṣṇa wants every living entity to come back to home, back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Thank you. This is the plan. If this plan is not executed, then there is suffering. So this human life is given to the living entity for understanding this plan and do the needful. If they do not understand, then they are punished. [break] *Guru*-kṛpa: ...today is that because the people have never been given any information what Kṛṣṇa's plan is, either they're too old or too... They're attached. They can't understand anything. That's the majority of the people. Once they get past thirty years old, it's very difficult for them to accept something. Prabhupāda: No, that is not. Thirty, forty, fifty or one year, that doesn't matter. One can understand if he wants to understand. Ahaituky apratihatā. It is not limited by any age. Otherwise how Prahlāda Mahārāja was great devotee, Dhruva Mahārāja was great devotee? Yaśodānandana: I think he just wants to mention that it is more difficult for people who are elderly to understand, those who are more set up in their ways. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is the difficulty. They are trained up in such a way that it's very difficult to forget what they have learned. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says, kaumāra acaret prajñaḥ, from the very beginning of life one should learn this art of understanding Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's plan. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, usually on saṅkīrtana I avoid old people because they just don't understand, and it's very difficult to approach them. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Old people should be instructed to forget what they have learned. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. This is the formula of preaching. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, he is begging to the people, dānte nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kāku-śataṁ kṛtvā cāham bravīmi: "Taking a straw in my mouth, with folded hands and flattering you hundred times, I am submitting one request." "What is that?" This is the process of approaching these rascals, old fools who have learned something and does not like to forget. So he says, he sādhavaḥ: "Oh, you are such a nice learned scholar-devotee, so my request is that whatever you have learned, please forget." Sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt: "Kick them out." "Then? What shall I do?" Caitanya-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam: "Please turn your attention to the teachings of Lord Caitanya." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya: "You are very great personality. So my request to you: you forget or kick out whatever you have learned." That is the first business. *Guru*-kṛpa: It is a very humble approach. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Humble approach for giving a slap, (chuckles) that "You forget everything, what you have learned." First of all, this is the first condition. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrād caitanya*-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. We can go this way. This is our business. We know they are all rascals, but they are thinking that "We know so many things. We are learned scholars." So humbly approach them and flatter him that "You are so nice man, such a learned scholar." Just like a child is flattered, "My dear boy, you are such a nice boy. You take these lozenges and return me the hundred dollar note. Don't spoil it. You are such a good boy, yes." This is our... Therefore to approach these rascals we have to learn tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. That is the preaching method. Everyone is puffed up. Even most insignificant man, he is also puffed up: "Oh, I am so rich man, I know everything. I have got so much bank balance. These poor fellows, they cannot earn livelihood; therefore they have become Vaiṣṇavas." This is their policy. [break] You immediately print 100,000, that "Scientific Basis." Rāmeśvara: Immediately reprint. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: I am planning to do that as soon as I go back to Los Angeles. And Jayatīrtha said you want us to send these to the professors. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Complimentary copies for them to study that another scientist has accepted your teachings. Prabhupāda: He has very nicely slapped Darwin. (chuckles) He is a mental speculator. How is that, the scientists accept a mental speculator's theory? (pause) Devotee (2): What is it called? Prabhupāda: Gandharvapur. Devotee (2): What does it mean? Prabhupāda: Sometimes... Means this is false thing. It appears as a big city. Similarly, this is also. This material world is like that. It is a false cloud only, but we have taken it as fact. Just see, it appears just like big New York City. If you go to the forest, you will find some illusion, that just after that tree there is a big house. Have you experienced that? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupāda: That is called Gandharvapur. So if anyone wants to enter that big city, then what is his position? Devotee (2): Illusion. Prabhupāda: The same thing: the conditioned soul enters the big city of material world, and he struggles. (pause) Rāmeśvara: I have heard there is a philosophy here amongst some of the devotees that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can go back to the spiritual world even if you do not give up your independence. Prabhupāda: What is that? Rāmeśvara: Many devotees who have moved outside of the temple are feeling that if they just continue to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they can go back to the spiritual world, but they are not giving up their independence. Prabhupāda: So? What is your philosophy? Rāmeśvara: Well, it seems somewhat hypocritical because chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa means you are praying to Kṛṣṇa to please be engaged eternally in His service and to become completely dependent on Him. So we try to explain like that. And to follow all the teachings and instructions, attending maṅgala āratik and morning and evening class. Prabhupāda: So they are doing that or not? *Guru*-kṛpa: No. They are not even following regulative principles. Prabhupāda: Then? Rāmeśvara: They think just by chanting, they will go back to the spiritual world. That is enough. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning of the ten kinds of offenses? If he is chanting without offense, then it is all right, but if he is committing offenses, it will not be effective. There are ten kinds of offenses. Whether he is strictly offenseless? Then it is all right. If he is offender, then it will not be fruitful. It will be fruitful; it will take long time because first of all you have to become offenseless. Then you will be admitted. (aside:) Don't come very near. That's it. So they are committing offenses, so how they can become perfect? He is committing not following the rules and regulation. That means he is thinking that "Whatever I do, it will be adjusted by chanting the name." Is it not? *Guru*-kṛpa: Yes. That's one of the offenses. Rāmeśvara: That is their philosophy. *Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy. That is the greatest offense, nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ, that "I can go on committing sinful activity, but by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, it will be adjusted." That is the greatest offense. So explain to them. *Guru*-kṛpa: So they say, "Then my chanting is useless? So I should stop?" That's what they say. *Prabhupāda: No, not useless. But just like if you kindle fire and at the same time pour water, it will take long time. To kindle fire, make it dry, keep it dry. Then it will be very quickly successful. So you are committing offenses, at the same time chanting, so by chanting effect, you will come to that stage, but it will take time. If you want to be transferred to the spiritual world quickly, just like if you want to ignite the fire very quickly, you must keep it dry. If you simply put on the wet wood, then the fire will not be very powerful. It will be... It will take time. The fire will be blazing fire. Then it will dry. It will take... Better put dry wood to make it successful. This is the process. The effect of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa will not go in vain, but it will take time. Nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa*-buddhiḥ. Because he is thinking "By the strength of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, I can do anything, all sinful activities, and it will be adjusted," that is the greatest offense, not only offense, the greatest offense. Nāmnad balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It is very difficult to put everyone who is living outside of the temple in one category. Some people, they are, many people that I know living outside are following strictly the regulative principles, and they are... Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are strictly following regulative principles and chanting their rounds and having morning āratik in their homes. And evening also, they are chanting. So instead of fighting, I think we should only try to encourage everybody to chant and follow the regulative principles. Prabhupāda: No, that is... Whether you live in temple or outside temple, the rules and regulation and the process must be followed. Then you are successful. It doesn't matter that you have to live in the temple. Gṛhe thāko vane thāko, 'hā gaurāṅga' bo'le ḍāko. Not that everyone has to live in the temple. If he does not agree with other Godbrothers, friends, he can live separately. But he must follow the rules and regulation. That is wanted. But if you live with devotees, it will be automatically done. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Easy. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is recommended that you live with devotees. But if you cannot agree with the devotees, you have got your own opinion, then you cannot make a new opinion so far the process is concerned. That must be followed. This is not good idea, that "Whatever I do, it is my independence, and I will chant." So that is good in sense that some day he will come to senses. Otherwise, for the time being, the chant is not very powerful. The fire in wet wood is not powerful. It will create some smoke. Although the fire is there. But if you put dry wood, immediately it will be blazing, and your business will be quickly done. This is intelligence. There are many examples. A patient suffering from disease, a doctor said, "You should do; *you should not do." So if we follow "You should not do," then it becomes quickly recovered. But if he becomes under the treatment of the doctor at the same time he does all nonsense, then how it can be successful? It will take time. That is stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Pāpi jane aparādha āchāya pracūra. Pāpi jane aparādha āchāya... Offenseless chanting is the ultimate goal. In the beginning we are not offenseless, but by chanting, chanting, by practice, we gradually become offenseless. But this is necessary, that you should be offenseless. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, it's very difficult to control my mind when I chant. It wanders. Prabhupāda: So what is the controlling of mind? You have to chant and hear, that's all. You have to chant with your tongue, and the sound you hear, that's all. What is the question of mind? Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it seems unfortunate that if the devotees cannot live in the temples, then they have to work for some karmi just to support themselves, and then they do not have time to go on the saṅkīrtana party. So it is such mercy to be on the saṅkīrtana party. So it seems very unfortunate that they do not have the time. Prabhupāda: No, then they should live in the temple if they want to give service in the saṅkīrtana party. Rāmeśvara: We always try to encourage them to come back to the temple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If he does not join the saṅkīrtana party, that does not mean his spiritual life is hampered. He has to follow the rules and regulation. He may not be able to join the saṅkīrtana party, but he must follow the process, rules and regulation. That is wanted. And because he is living outside the temple, therefore he will forget all rules and regulation and do whatever he likes*-then it will ruin the whole thing. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it faster if one lives in the temple and goes on the saṅkīrtana party. Is it faster? Prabhupāda: That depends on him. Even in the temple, if his mind is in a different subject matter, then how it will help him? Bali Mardana: The temple authorities like to preach that anyone who's living outside the temple is going to hell. Prabhupāda: Generally. Bali Mardana: But even devotees who are following. They like to preach that. Prabhupāda: No, that is not. That is not. Just like even in ordinary business, if you transact business in the stock association, you get good business. And outside the stock association you don't get. Because association is there, there are many purchaser and many seller. So if you have to sell, you get immediate purchaser. And if you have to purchase, there is immediate seller. That is... Therefore the stock exchange is there. That is the way, that if we live together in the stock exchange of devotional service, then you can help me; I can help you. So our business will go on nicely. And outside the market, you can live three hundred miles away from the stock exchange. You will not get so many business. Like that. Devotee (2): You'll miss the opportunities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is helpful. If you want to do business, you must take the first opportunity, the greatest opportunity, do your business. That is intelligence. And if we think, "All right, I shall do slowly. In seven hundred lives I shall become perfect," that is another thing. Bali Mardana: It is riskier to stay outside. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise why you are opening so many centers and making arrangement that "We shall provide you with shelter, with food. These are the facilities. You live here, do whatever is your capacity. Don't sleep, but work." This is our teaching. Satāṁ prasaṅgāt, this is also, and Rūpa Gosvāmī says, sato vṛtteḥ sādhu*-saṅge sadbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati: "If you live with the association of sādhu, devotee, then it will be quickly fruitful." And if you live with these ordinary men, then whatever you have got will be finished very soon. There is another verse. It is said there that it is preferred to live within the cage surrounded by fire than to live with the nondevotees. It is preferred. Bali Mardana: Or with those who are too much attached to women also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nondevotee means too much attached to woman. That is the plain fact. *Yaśodānandana: Also one time in Bombay you told this verse from Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], sādhu-saṅga... *Prabhupāda: Sarva-śāstre kaya, lava*-mātra sādhu-saṅge sarva-siddhi haya [Cc. Madhya 22.54]. For me, personally, I had the opportunity to talk with my spiritual master not more than ten times in my whole life, not more. It may be less than that. But I tried to follow his instruction, that's all, although I was a gṛhastha. Bali Mardana: You are a much better student than us. *Prabhupāda: So this is the process. That is the... You sing every day. Guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya **. That is the process. Wherever you live, if you follow strictly the instruction of guru, then you remain perfect. But if we create, concoct ideas against the instruction of guru, then we are doomed, hell. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi **. There is no more shelter, finished. Yasya prasādāt. If guru thinks that "This person, I wanted to take him back to home, back to Godhead. Now he is going against me. He is not following," aprasādāt, he is displeased, then everything is finished. Bali Mardana: Vaiṣṇavāparādha. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, where does someone derive his authority... Prabhupāda: The guru is authority. Devotee (1): No, I know, but for his actions other than just following the four regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds. He does so many other things during the day. Where does he derive his authority if he's not, let's say, living in the temple? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. The authority is guru. You have accepted. Bali Mardana: For everything. Jayatīrtha: Say I have some outside job, I'm living outside, but I'm not giving 50% of my income. So then that work that I'm doing, is it actually under the authority of the guru? Prabhupāda: Then you are not following the instruction of guru. That is plain fact. Jayatīrtha: So that means that whole activity during the day, working, that means I am not following the instruction of the guru. It's unauthorized activity. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you don't follow the instruction of guru, then you are fallen down immediately. That is the way. Otherwise why you sing, yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo **. It is my duty to satisfy guru. Otherwise I am nowhere. So if you prefer to be nowhere, then you disobey as you like. But if you want to be steady in your position, then you have to follow strictly the instruction of guru. Devotee (1): We can understand all of your instructions simply by reading your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction. That is required. Follow the instruction. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You are secure. Follow the instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It doesn't matter. Just like I told you that I saw my Guru Mahārāja not more than ten days in my life, but I followed his instruction. I was a gṛhastha, I never lived with the Maṭha, in the temple. It is practical. So many Godbrothers recommended that "He should be in charge in this Bombay temple, this, that, that..." Guru Mahārāja said, "Yes, better he lives outside. That is good, and he will do what is needed in due course of time." Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Prabhupāda: He said like that. I could not understand at that time what does he expect. Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach. Yaśodānandana: I think you have done this in grand style. Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupāda! Haribol! *Prabhupāda: Yes, done grand style because I strictly follow the instruction of my Guru Mahārāja, that's all. Otherwise I have no strength. I have not played any magic. Did I? Any gold manufacturing? (laughter) Still, I have got better disciples than the gold*-manufacturing guru. Yaśodānandana: Before you came, many gurus came, but they did not make any pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: How they can? He is not pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. How he can do? Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra: "Without being empowered by Kṛṣṇa nobody can turn a person to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa." It is not... Artificially, you cannot make. He may make show of gold manufacturing, but he cannot make a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. *Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty*-four hours engaged according to your instruction. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani ācāri prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. The leader should be ideal. Devotee (1): We should dedicate our lives to preaching this message of Lord Caitanya. Prabhupāda: Yes, preaching, preaching, you will become perfect preacher. Preach only what you have heard from Kṛṣṇa and guru, that's all. Don't add and subtract. Then you are secure. And if you add some concoction just like somebody says that "I may do whatever I like independently. If I chant, then everything is all right," this is nonsense addition. It is not the fact. That is the danger. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concoction. Sometimes they say, "Prabhupāda said it." More misleading. Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- February 4, 1975, Hawaii Prabhupāda: I remember those days immediately when I see the sea. Haṁsadūta: You were getting seasick? *Prabhupāda: No, I liked it. Although I was sick, still, I liked it. Day and night, for thirty*-five days. Haṁsadūta: I came to America in the same way, but I was always sick. I didn't like it. *Prabhupāda: The sea journey is very good provided there is no sea*-sickness. Otherwise very bad. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma... [break] ...all of our books in different languages. At least all the European languages. America is one language. *Guru*-kṛpa: South America. Prabhupāda: South America, different languages. Spanish. *Guru*-kṛpa: Spanish, Portuguese. Prabhupāda: Hare Rāma Hare... What about that Japanese translation? Something is done or not? *Guru*-kṛpa: Just a magazine. Prabhupāda: No. His wife was translating Japanese? Bali Mardana: It has to be checked over. *Guru*-kṛpa: There is a girl in Tokyo who is very expert. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bali Mardana: She's doing? *Guru*-kṛpa: She's been doing the magazine. She can do more. [break] Jayatīrtha: Yesterday Nitāi found a quote from the *Purāṇas* that says, "There are many gurus who will take away your money, but rare is the one who will take away your miseries." Prabhupāda: Guravo bahavaḥ santi vittāpahārakaḥ. Nitāi: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: Haṁsadūta: In one lecture you were explaining those prayers, saṁsāra, and you said the first business of the guru is to take away the anxiety of the disciple. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, our people, they have got some hope that they're going back to home, back to Godhead. And all other rascals*-zero. Who is endeavoring for zero? What is this endeavor? Haṁsadūta: There's nothing to do for that. *Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. In Bhāgavata also*-gurur na sa syāt. He should not be guru unless he is able to protect his disciple from the imminent danger of death. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This cycle of birth and death is going on. Guru's business is how to stop this cycle of birth and death. And it is not very difficult. Teach him to understand Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is assuring, "If anyone understands Me nicely, then after giving up this body he comes to Me." Where is the difficulty? Give him Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he is saved from birth and death. There is nothing wonderful. There is no jugglery. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...only institution for mitigating the sufferings of humanity. But they don't know what is the real suffering of humanity. Dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. That is the real suffering, cycle of birth and death. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know what is the goal of life, svārtha, self-interest. Unless he comes to Viṣṇu, there is no question of svārtha-gati. [break] ...reclaim this portion, eh... [break] ...strong and stout. Not all. [break] Yesterday it was a very nice city, and today it is finished. This is called māyā. [break] And there is no God. Just see how intelligent they are. To pour water whole night thousands of miles, can the scientists arrange? So who is arranging for that? His father? His father, of course, arranges, but he does not agree to offer respect to the father. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpananda: Another boy in a different place, householder, his business is making surfboards for a living. He builds the surfboards, and he puts big pictures of Kṛṣṇa, Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, on the surfboard so that when the boys are sitting on the board, like you saw that boy sitting on the surfboard, all day long they are looking at the picture. Prabhupāda: Very good. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Tulasī grows profusely in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: That's a good sign. *Siddha*-svarūpānanda: Yes. Many people, hundreds of people, are worshiping tulasī. Even people we don't know, they, somehow or other, they have gotten tulasī, and they are worshiping. Prabhupāda: Very good. They will become devotee. Without any fail, they will become devotees. If they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and worship tulasī leaf, they'll be liberated without any fail, and they will become devotee. [break] ...gradually appreciate. [break] Kīrtanānanda: But the little boy, the three year old boy, he appreciates very much. He loves your books. Prabhupāda: Oh. Yaśodānandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday on saṅkīrtana I was distributing a book to someone, and when he saw your picture he said, "Ah, yes, in 1966 I chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Yaśodānandana: And he took a book because he saw your picture. Prabhupāda: Yes. 1966, I was chanting in San Francisco. Yaśodānandana: He said he chanted with you and your disciples on Second Avenue. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśodānandana: He said he was fifteen then. Prabhupāda: What is that, Thompkinson? No? Kīrtanānanda: Thompkins Square Park. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kīrtanānanda: Many, many people came to that storefront. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes, it was packed. *Kīrtanānanda: Packed every night, seventy*-five, eighty people. [break] Jayatīrtha: I went to that New York storefront first of all, and I was a Māyāvā... Well, I was a rascal. So they called me a rascal, so I became very offended. (laughs) Later on, I saw that they were right. Prabhupāda: And you called them rascal? No. Jayatīrtha: No. I knew that they were not rascals. They looked very pure. I just left. [break] Prabhupāda: The sunshine has covered 93,000,000 miles all round, so the sunshine is big or the sun is big? Kīrtanānanda: The potency is in the sun. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is big, not the Brahmān. And within the sun globe there is sun*-god, Vivasvān. They do not know all these. They think the sunshine is the... *Guru*-kṛpa: The sun is different than Vivasvān? Prabhupāda: Not different. Just like the sunshine is not different from the sun globe. Sun globe means all the inhabitants there, they are glowing. Therefore the whole planet is glowing. *Guru*-kṛpa: Vivasvān, he is...? Prabhupāda: He is also glowing. *Guru*-kṛpa: He will stay as long as the sun... He is present? Prabhupāda: Yes, he has got a duration of life. When the creation will be annihilated he'll be annihilated. He'll be not annihilated. Nobody is annihilated, but he's not manifest, nonmanifest. He is demigod. The demigods, with the annihilation of the material world, they will be all finished. But Kṛṣṇa will remain there. Aham eva āsam agre. And He will be remained. He was in the beginning of creation, and at the end of creation He'll be there. *Guru*-kṛpa: Prabhupāda, in the Bhāgavatam, it is mentioned, sarva-devāmayo guruḥ [SB 11.17.27]. What is the meaning? Prabhupāda: "Guru is the representation of all Gods and demigods." Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, in Vṛndāvana you were explaining about the sun, that the sun is not fire, but the living entities there have glowing bodies. So how do they glow? You said it was not the glow of the soul, but it was... *Prabhupāda: How do you not glow? How? God has made you not glowing, and He has made them glowing. That's all. Sarva*-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Haṁsadūta: I mean to say is there a difference between...? Just like we have fire here, is it different from the glowing there? You said the sun is not fire. Prabhupāda: Hm. No, no, without fire how there can be glow? Haṁsadūta: So they have fiery bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: But when we see fire here it is also living in that way? Some living entity? *Prabhupāda: Within fire? Yes. That is agni*-po. Just like you have got microbes and germs in water, similarly, there are microbes and germs in fire also. Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, adāhyaḥ. "It is not burned by fire." Everything, information, is there. And therefore our knowledge is perfect. Take from the perfect source of knowledge. Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam aśleṣya, aśoṣya. (end) Morning Walk Through the BBT Warehouse -- February 10, 1975, Los Angeles Jayatīrtha: ...in māyā. He doesn't feel that he'll be able to surrender to whatever instruction you give so he doesn't want to appear before you. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) He doesn't want to become a cheater. Jayatīrtha: Exactly. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That's all. Formerly... Jayatīrtha: Just like that Sudāmā and Subala... Prabhupāda: Yes. Not like that. Jayatīrtha: They came for instruction, but then, when you gave them instruction, they said, "No." So what was the use of their coming? That's his feeling. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in that way he's very sincere, I know. So what is there? I love him. Let him come. After all, he is my son. There is no harm. Let him come. [break] Hṛdayānanda: Right here. See on the left there? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] (inside) Rāmeśvara: ...admire your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sometimes they sit here and they pull books to examine the quality of the printing, and they always read the Back to Godhead magazine while they wait. Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Ah. Latest publication? Haṁsadūta: Yes. Rāmeśvara: The Back to Godhead printer frames these for us. He brings them over after every issue. Prabhupāda: Oh. They are giving good service. Rāmeśvara: They are very fond of us. They spend more time on our magazine than anyone else. Prabhupāda: What is the picture? Rāmeśvara: This is Sītā, the wife of Advaita Ācārya receiving... Prabhupāda: Oh, Lord Caitanya. *Rāmeśvara: It is in Ādi*-līlā, Volume Three. Prabhupāda: Who has painted? Rāmeśvara: Jadurāṇī. Prabhupāda: Jadurāṇī has got good talent. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (chuckles) Rāmeśvara: This is the office where I work. Prabhupāda: This is developed photo. Rāmeśvara: It is a drawing by a boy in New York named Peter Hawkins. Prabhupāda: Drawing? Rāmeśvara: A drawing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Harer nāma harer nāma... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Rāmeśvara: We have two warehouses... [break] ...to the wall and up to the ceiling. Prabhupāda: So they are going or simply stock? Rāmeśvara: No. It is greatly reduced since they have arrived. *Prabhupāda: So Haṁsadūta, he has to make a go*-down like this. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: Then he'll defeat these charges. Eh? When the nation, German nation, will accept these books, then that will be proper reply, charges. Rāmeśvara: This forklift lifts these pallets high up to the ceiling. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hṛdayānanda: Does Prabhupāda want to see how it work? Śruta-śravā, you can show him how it works? Quickly. Rāmeśvara: These racks we purchased for storing the books that will be sent to the libraries and colleges. When Satsvarūpa Swami gets the orders, they are reserved over here, five hundred copies of each book, and then, when we run out, another five hundred copies goes in the rack. So that way, we always keep books. Even if we sell out, we always have books reserved for the libraries. Śruta-śravā manages our warehouse. (engine started) Hṛdayānanda: Make it go up. Prabhupāda: I first saw this machine in the Commonwealth Pier, Boston. (machine moving around, crashing sound) Jayatīrtha: What are you doing, Śruta-śravā? Rāmeśvara: Sometimes because of that roof you can't see what you're doing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: So usually he's very careful. Prabhupāda: Sometime they are breaking also. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: So far, no accidents. Kirtirāja: Just today. Rāmeśvara: He's a little nervous. (laughter) Prabhupāda: What is the rent? Rāmeśvara: 1,800 dollars each month for all the offices in the warehouse. It's considered a good price in this area. We have a speaker system, so during the day, while they work in the warehouse, they're always hearing your lectures. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (chuckles) Rāmeśvara: This is the other warehouse. Hṛdayānanda: Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: There is arrangement for fire? Rāmeśvara: Yes. We have fire insurance and fire alarm. We have fire alarm? Kirtirāja: Yeah. Rāmeśvara: We have fire alarm? These are Kṛṣṇa Trilogies. Prabhupāda: All these? All these, stock? *Rāmeśvara: We always require large inventory because the temples order so fast. Bhagavad*-gītās in this corner, and on this back wall here, all the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams and Caitanya-caritāmṛta volumes... These books have just arrived from the printer. Prabhupāda: Where is that Prajāpati? He's not here? That play yesterday... Last evening I saw. It was very nice. Gurudāsa: Yes. They also did Pralambāsura for the guests. *Prabhupāda: No... Now we have got Caitanya*-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavatam. If such demonstration are done very nicely, it will be very much appreciated even by the public. We can collect some money. Jayatīrtha: Yes. We plan to make a tour this summer all the way up the West Coast, and in the amphitheaters... Prabhupāda: And in India also. Simply you have to change the language, dictate. Jayatīrtha: Of the narration. Gurudāsa: Yes. They're planning to do that. Prabhupāda: In our festival let them come and show. What is this? That man? What is his name who showed Gaurāṅga līlā? Gurudāsa: Yes, Harigovind. Prabhupāda: It will be hundred times better than that. Gurudāsa: Thousand times. Ten thousand, yes. Prabhupāda: So show this nonsense that "We can do better than you." Gurudāsa: It's much more beautiful. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: They're coming to Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurudāsa: Yesterday at the love feast they did Pralambāsura, and the guests loved it. Wonderful. Jayatīrtha: They applauded. Prabhupāda: They must love it. It is very nice, very nice. Organize this very nicely. We have got so many boys and girls. They can play simply. And they haven't got to speak. This system is very nice. Let them play. What is this called, system? Hṛdayānanda: Narration. Prabhupāda: No, there is... Jayatīrtha: Like pantomime. Gurudāsa: Mime. Prabhupāda: Even they play with tape. Tape... Tapes... The tape is going on, and then are playing. Gurudāsa: Yes, they also do that sometimes. They have tapes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So organize this, and all over the world this will be appreciated. And now we have got so many books. From the book you get subject matter and make a playwright in all languages. It will be very nice. *Gurudāsa: They have a repertoire of eight main ones that they can do, and now they're starting to do others also, from Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, etc. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think he is good director, Prajāpati. Jayatīrtha: Yes. His wife is very expert also. *Prabhupāda: Oh. And also you can call... What is he? Jagad*-dhita...? That Australian girl? Gurudāsa: Oh, yes, Jagatāriṇī. Prabhupāda: Jagatāriṇī. Jayatīrtha: She can come here? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. She is expert dancer. She was very popular actress before joining. Very, very popular actress. You know? Viśākhā: I've heard the name, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a newspaper, big, big..., that "This girl has given up everything, now has joined Kṛṣṇa." *Gurudāsa: Yesterday one professional skydiver, one who parachutes from a plane for money, I talked to her. She's joining the dance company. Yesterday. Thirty*-four years old, professional parachuter woman, she is joining the dance company. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Our dance company? Gurudāsa: Yes, our dance company. She saw the dance, and I preached to her. She's joining. *Viśākhā: We plan to make a motion picture of the Bhagavad*-gītā dance that they do. My husband and I... Prabhupāda: Do it. Apply your American brain how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is success. Hṛdayānanda: Back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: Oh, magazine. Rāmeśvara: These boxes have come from the printer all ready to go to different countries, and they stamp the address on it. These are those newspapers you saw yesterday called "Spiritual Revolution." Prabhupāda: I think this Revolution is not very important. Make revolution with magazine, this Back to Godhead. What are these? *Rāmeśvara: The Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, Lord Caitanya in Five Features, that chapter that we printed. Jayatīrtha: These are the ones that you wanted us to bring for distribution to the Māyāvādīs. Prabhupāda: Yes, Māyāvādīs. Rāmeśvara: Just before Christmas this wall was filled up, and now it is practically empty. We have sold so many books just in a few months. All up to the ceiling it was filled up. Now we have to reprint. *Prabhupāda: Now it is only in English language. In every language such big go*-down should... Yes. (chuckles) You have taken Spanish, and he is German. Then... Then overflood. No more other literature. (laughter) Ara nāhe bābā. They'll say, "No, no, we don't want any other literature." Yes, George says, "No more singing anything except Kṛṣṇa." Does he not say? He says like that. Gurudāsa: Yes. Sometimes. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: I don't think... Is he singing any other song, no? Gurudāsa: Now he is not. He's going to Vṛndāvana next week. Prabhupāda: Oh. Vṛndāvana. Where he'll stay? Gurudāsa: I wrote him a letter to stay with us, but he may stay in Mathurā. I'm not sure. I wrote him a letter to stay at our place. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Rāmeśvara: We have enough space here to store all the Spanish books, because they are printed in Los Angeles, or in America. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Rāmeśvara: Maybe we should walk around again. *Prabhupāda: I think no religious publisher have seen such big go*-down in their life, throughout the whole world. As soon as they will hear about religious book they immediately avoid it, especially the Communist country. And bring some Communist country man to show him that "You are trying to avoid God. Now see how we are preaching God." Jayatīrtha: In one country, Communist country, Albania, they made it against the law to pray in public or in private. Anyone who is found praying in public or in private may be arrested. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Jayatīrtha: Albania. It is the first country... Prabhupāda: Armenian country? Jayatīrtha: Albania. Prabhupāda: Albania, oh. Rāmeśvara: East Europe. Prabhupāda: Just see how demons they are becoming. What is this room? Hṛdayānanda: This leads into the other rooms. Rāmeśvara: These are offices. The first office is where Kirtirāja works. He is managing all the distribution for the libraries and colleges. Satsvarūpa's party sends in the orders, and they process them from here. They handle all the business from this part of the warehouse. Prabhupāda: What is this? Hṛdayānanda: That's Māyāpur, Lord Caitanya's birthplace. Gurudāsa: Yogapīṭha. Prabhupāda: Oh. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's family. "Book Digest." They publish our books? Kirtirāja: We are trying to arrange that now. All of these different... There are so many magazines we are trying to get our books listed in them. Śrīla Prabhupāda, here's a magazine which one Christian press nearby has printed, very fancy magazine, and they were distributing it for free. They just recently printed a letter and then sent this. They have gone from this to this because they cannot afford to do it any more. No one is giving them donations any more, so they've gone from big fancy magazine to a small, plain paper. This people would like to see, but now this just looks like garbage. They won't even read it. Prabhupāda: So it has degraded. Kirtirāja: Yes. We have gone from this to fancy. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our catalog. Kirtirāja: Yes, we are printing a new one now. Prabhupāda: What are these? Kirtirāja: Unfortunately those are returns. When people don't want the books, then they return them. Rāmeśvara: Very few returns. Kirtirāja: Very few, though. Prabhupāda: Never mind. That is not as strong. *Kirtirāja: Now we have about almost 125 standing orders for Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and about almost one hundred for Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Rāmeśvara: We have just recently given Satsvarūpa a new car. So now he has four vans and a station wagon car. Prabhupāda: Four vans? Rāmeśvara: Four vans and one station wagon car, so he's able to cover so many universities very quickly. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Rāmeśvara: This is Hṛdayānanda Swami's office. Prabhupāda: Oh, Spanish office. Hṛdayānanda: These are the color pictures for our *Bhāgavatam* we are printing this week. Prabhupāda: Oh. Mas Alla? (pronounces "masalla") Gurudāsa: It's not spice. Hṛdayānanda: That means "beyond." "Beyond Birth and Death." And that's the cover for our *Bhāgavatam*. Prabhupāda: Oh. Gurudāsa: It is also spicy. Rāmeśvara: It's very convenient for him to print here because he has all the credit from BBT, so the printers immediately want to do business with him. Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes, businessman never invests his own money. He does business with others' money. That is business. Just like I am doing. (laughter) I brought only forty rupees. That was also not spent. (laughter) Rāmeśvara: This is our Golden Avatar studio where they record... They change your lectures into master tapes which can then be duplicated at high speed, and this is a complete library of all of your lectures. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Rāmeśvara: We keep it very carefully. It's very important. They are cataloging it according to title of book, so if someone wants to see what your Divine Grace has lectured on Bhagavad*-gītā, they have one section on Bhagavad-gītā, and on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto... Prabhupāda: They have got index book. Rāmeśvara: Yes, they have index system. Prabhupāda: Very good. Rāmeśvara: In this room we make repairs on electrical equipment for Golden Avatar. We have one man who joined our movement. He was in the Navy. He was a sonar technician, and he became a devotee. Prabhupāda: Where is Kṛṣṇānanda? What is...? What is his name? *Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa*-kānti. Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. *Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa*-kānti has moved to Santa Cruz. He has a house there. Navadvīpa Prabhu is now managing Golden Avatar. Prabhupāda: He is technical. Rāmeśvara: Yes. This is the man. His name is Robin. Prabhupāda: He is... Rāmeśvara: Very expert. And this is the duplicating machine. How fast can it make copies? Robin: Three minutes. Rāmeśvara: How many copies. Robin: Four. Rāmeśvara: It makes four copies on the cassette every three minutes, so we are mass producing your lectures. Prabhupāda: Less than a minute, one copy. Hṛdayānanda: Yes, both sides. Rāmeśvara: Sixty minute lecture in less than a minute. So there is a big, growing business for Golden Avatar. More people are ordering your lectures all the time, all over the world. Prabhupāda: Now, other countries? Rāmeśvara: All over the world. They have accounts in Australia, Europe, everywhere. *Prabhupāda: Yad*-uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam [SB 1.5.22]. This is mission. Uttama-śloka-guṇanāvarṇanam. Kirtirāja: We're advertising even by subscription. They can send in so much money, and every week they receive one or three tapes of Your Divine Grace's lectures. And there's kīrtanas... Prabhupāda: American organization. Rāmeśvara: They want very much to organize a radio show again with lectures and kīrtanas. *Prabhupāda: What is this? Q*-tips? Devotee: Cotton swabs. Prabhupāda: Oh, I require a packet like this for my... Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda wants it? Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, do you want these? *Prabhupāda: You can take it, yes. Prasādam. (laughter) Vaiṣṇava's prasādam. Chaḍīyā vaiṣṇava sevā, niṣṭhā payeche keba. You are all Vaiṣṇavas. Vaiṣṇave jāti*-buddhiḥ. Eh? Rāmeśvara: This is the mail order room, where all the orders that people send in for books... They are processed here. They manage that here. And Svarūpa, he is the secretary for the Society. In all your books it says, "If you want more information write to the secretary." He answers all those letters. Prabhupāda: How many letters you get? Rāmeśvara: Svarūpa? *Svarūpa: Maybe twenty*-five letters. Hṛdayānanda: Every day. Rāmeśvara: And also he is encouraging them to become Life Members, and sometimes through the mail they send their Life Membership fee. This is our Mail Order shipping room. Prabhupāda: I was doing when I was Dr. Bose's manager. Any inquiry coming from outside, I must continue correspondence with him unless he becomes a customer. Rāmeśvara: Unless he becomes a customer. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was doing. Rāmeśvara: There's one more room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: This is where they ship all the mail orders. Prabhupāda: Weighing. Hṛdayānanda: That's for postage. Rāmeśvara: We have our own postage machine. We don't have to go to a post office. Prabhupāda: Oh. Rāmeśvara: It prints out stamps. Prabhupāda: Even letters, packages? Rāmeśvara: Yes, anything. So it's very efficient. Prabhupāda: What is this? Rāmeśvara: Sometimes people order incense along with their books. Very rarely. The mail order business is now doing $100,000 worth of business every year and is always growing. It is almost doubled from last year. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are printing these books? Rāmeśvara: We're going to reprint them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: 100,000 copies, with a color cover. Prabhupāda: Nice. This, this, very nice. *Rāmeśvara: That is the size for the new Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hṛdayānanda: These are oils. [break] Prabhupāda: This dramatic party, so they should be sent all, in India. Yes. Rāmeśvara: They are going on saṅkīrtana to collect their plane fare. Prabhupāda: If there is deficiency, we can pay from book fund. Rāmeśvara: Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. They must go with party. Rāmeśvara: All right. I'll tell them that. Prabhupāda said if there's deficiency in funds that we'll pay from Book Fund to send them to India. Jayatīrtha: Really? Oh, they'll be ecstatic. *Prabhupāda: Nice, well*-equipped go-down. Yes. So now make one go-down in Germany. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now there is no raining. We can walk? Haṁsadūta: Yes, it's still raining. Hṛdayānanda: Light rain. Little rain. They're not expecting Prabhupāda till 7:30. You'd better go to the temple and make sure they're prepared. Rāmeśvara: They have your name on the building, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. [break] (in car:) They'll be inquisitive: "What is that book?" Don't say "This book." We have got so many books. Simply request, "Read one book from here." [break] ...speaking to whom that there is no happiness in this material world, but if there is little happiness, that is in America. Jayatīrtha: You told us that in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh. Śrutakīrti: We were driving in a car in Hawaii. You mentioned that. *Prabhupāda: And that's a fact. There is no happiness. We are declaring, "That's all right, but if there is little happiness, that is in America." So you are favored by Kṛṣṇa. Utilize this favor of Kṛṣṇa in glorifying Kṛṣṇa. Then it is success. Avicyuto arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad uttama-śloka, to become extraordinary in any branch of facilities, that requires austerities. So when one has acquired that, he should engage it for glorifying the Supreme. Yad*-uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam [SB 1.5.22]. [break] ...with the bag. [break] ...within the box. Jayatīrtha: Yes. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...chance should be given during childhood. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha [SB 7.6.1]. This bhāgavata*-dharma, that is our idea in Gurukula. Learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very beginning of childhood. *Jayatīrtha: Bahulāśva's son is only three years old, but he can chant that "ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā... [Cc. Antya 20.12]," chant very nicely. Prabhupāda: Just see. Jayatīrtha: And He chants also his rounds, couple of rounds every day. *Prabhupāda: And another child? Svarūpa*-da? Yes... *Paramahaṁsa: Oh, Śiva*-jvara. *Prabhupāda: Śiva*-jvara. Oh, he's a wonderful child. He is English. He's so busy. He wants to do everything. Yes. Paramahaṁsa: He was playing karatālas very nicely. Prabhupāda: Not only that, he's a born devotee. He'll take the ārati lamp and do like this and try to open the door. Anything you... Whatever he has seen others are doing, he'll do. Paramahaṁsa: He was using the cāmara and the peacock fan. Prabhupāda: And he chants also. He picks up the words. Haṁsadūta: He's one of the happiest children I've ever seen. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: He's one of the happiest, jolliest looking children I've ever seen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: I think he's extraordinary. Jayatīrtha: New Dvārakā is leading the society in child production. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. But make them devotees. That is the real father and mother, who begets children and make him devotee. That is real father and mother. Otherwise cats and dogs. A Tulasī dāsa, he has written one poetry that "A son and the urine comes from the same way." Son... Son means it is born out of the semina. That also comes through the genital, and the urine also comes through the genital. So he is giving this example that "Putra and Mutra..." Mutra, means urine, and putra means son, comes from the same passage. So if the son is a devotee, then he's putra; *otherwise he's mutra. (laughter) Otherwise he's urine. Very nice. Yes. Putra and mutra come from the same channel. If he's a devotee, then he's putra, otherwise he's mutra. [break] ...miseries are compared with the heat and cold. Mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa*-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. Śīta and uṣṇa. Uṣṇa means hot, and śīta means cold. They are pleasing and miserable in circumstances. Cold is very pleasing in the summer, and heat is very pleasing in winter. But same heat in summer is not pleasing, and same cold in winter, it is not pleasing. So what is the actual position of cold and heat? It is simply transforming as pleasure and pain according to circumstances. Otherwise it is neither painful, neither pleasing. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...has given me hundreds of such places but His order is "You cannot stay." (laughter) I'll tell you one humorous story in this connection. It is a little long. I don't wish to divert your attention. Very interesting story. That is also mentioned in the Bhagavad..., aniketa. One may have many nice places to live; still, he should think that "I have no place to live." That is one of the spiritual items. Haṁsadūta: What is that story, Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) Story is that there was a joker-His name was Gopal Bahn-of a king, Rāja Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇanagar, you know? Near Māyāpur? Yes, the king of that place. So they used to keep joker to please them by words. So the joker was constructing a new building. So it is almost finished, but there was no opening ceremony. So Rāja advised his, one of his another friends, that "If you can go and pass urine in that new house of Gopal*-the joker's name-before the opening ceremony, then I'll give you so much prize. Go and pass urine there." (chuckles) So, "Yes, I'll do it." So... No, "Pass stool." Yes. "Go and pass stool there. Then I'll give you so much advance." So one day he made this plan. He was passing, and all of a sudden entered: "Gopal, I am very much called by nature. Kindly show me where I shall pass stool. Where I shall pass?" So Gopal was intelligent, that it is, there is some plan. "Yes, yes, here is lavatory. You come here." So he is... Everything was false. So then he said, "The door must be open. You pass stool there, but I'll see that you are passing stool and door must be open." "Now, how it is possible?" "No, it is possible. You can pass stool, but you cannot pass urine. If you pass urine, then I shall kill you." Passing stool without passing urine, how it is possible? "So you have come to pass stool. That you can do here, but don't pass urine." (laughs) So that is my position. "You may have hundreds of places, but you cannot live anywhere." That is Kṛṣṇa's order. [break] ...place not to become attached. Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Just like Nārada Muni got that curse from Lord Brahmā. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not Lord Brahmā, by Dakṣarāja, that "You cannot stay anywhere more than three minutes." Paramahaṁsa: He is still doing that? Nārada Muni? Prabhupāda: Yes. His business is preaching. So we have to become, every one of us, disciple of Nārada Muni. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...American people are spending, and it is going to the American people, not outside. So it is not bad idea, distribution of money. Therefore America is so opulent. Nobody's miserly. Everyone is spending. Therefore the benefit is distributed. I have got money, I am spending, so benefit is distributed. Jayatīrtha: Now all the rich men in India have got all their money locked up. Prabhupāda: Yes, locked up. (end) Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico Hanumān: I would like to ask you why we are so fortunate to have such a nice genuine spiritual master as you, and some others have bogus spiritual master. Is it something of karma or is this the pure mercy of yourself? *Prabhupāda: No, that you can think*-your spiritual master is nice, others bogus-but they do not think like that. (laughter) They will think their spiritual master is good, your spiritual master is bogus. But there is standard who is spiritual master. Spiritual master means who is the best servant of God. One who does not agree the existence of God, he is bogus because he's not bona fide, mūḍhā. One who does not accept the existence of God, he is mūḍhā. He's a rascal. He cannot... A rascal cannot become spiritual master. Hanumān: How come we come to you? *Prabhupāda: Well, that is another thing, but first of all we have to know who is spiritual master. The spiritual master is he, samit*-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12], one who is exclusively servant of God, he is spiritual master. Otherwise anyone will come and say, "I am spiritual master." Anyone will come say, "I am incarnation of God." So there is standard. That we have to find out. *Devotee (1): Most of the people are still ignoring God. They are so weak*-willed. They are so weak-willed that they are easily swayed by, you know, when somebody comes and claims that... Prabhupāda: Well, if one is weak, he may be infected by some disease. It requires some resisting power. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that, your answer, that "Only the fortunate person, they can get the shelter of bona fide spiritual master." Kona bhāgyavān jīva. Not all, kona. Kona means some. Devotee (1): . Some, yes. Kona bhāgyavān... *Prabhupāda: Jīva. So as there are bhagavān*-somebody is rich, somebody is poor; *this is also due to fortune or misfortune*-similarly, if one is spiritually fortunate he gets a bona fide spiritual master. Guest (2): Do you have any opinions about some of the other Indian masters who have been... Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that unless one is bona fide servant of God, he cannot become master. Guest (2): I mean specific people like Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: So Guru Maharaji says that he is God himself. Then he's a bogus. How he can be God? God is so cheap? So only the foolish person will accept him. Those who have no knowledge. Guest (2): Maharshi Mahesh? Prabhupāda: I think he doesn't speak anything about God. Guest (3): No. He's teaching the transcendental meditation. Prabhupāda: He speaks something of material prosperity. So He has nothing to do with God. Devotee (1): It's just a kind of training of mind. Prabhupāda: That's it. Just like gymnastic. You exercise; you become bodily strong. That's all. Guest (2): Sai Baba? *Prabhupāda: Sai Baba, he also says, "I am Bhagavān." Therefore he's bogus. How you can say yourself that you are Bhagavān, God? What is your power? What you have shown? And this is cheap. Now, supposing Sai Baba is God. So people accept him God, why? Because he shows some jugglery. He creates little gold. Is it not? So if, by creating gold, he is God, then there is bigger God who has created gold mine. Why shall I go to this tiny god? I must go to the big God who has created gold mine. This is common sense. But foolish people, they have no common sense even. Therefore it is called mūḍhā. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair mohita, mūḍhā nābhijānāti. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like mostly people take: "The nature is all in all." The scientist, they take nature. But nature is matter. So where is our experience*-the matter is working automatically? Where is our experience? Hm? Matter... Does matter work automatically? What is your opinion? Hanumān: It's a chain of reaction. Prabhupāda: Reaction. First of all there must be beginning of action, then reaction. Hanumān: In the beginning there's Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... I think Newton or some scientist also said that "Original motion is given by somebody; *then other motions are given." Just like this, what is called? Railway wagons? So one engine pushes it. Then the wagon, another wagon, (makes sound) "cutcutcutcutcut," like that. Wherefrom the original? That is answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Guest (4) (Indian man): Recently I was reading article in a science magazine and a space scientist, he has calculated that after 67,000 million years the universe contracts. And then I started calculating in terms of the yugas and the division which is mentioned. With the help of an astronomer I reached the conclusion that both figures coincide. So do you mean to say that when it was mentioned that after four yugas they will collide. Then it was a kind of vision, or might have been calculated by this... Prabhupāda: Means calculation. It is going on, regulated way. Just like everyone knows that this month is February. In the month of June the summer will begin. Everyone knows. It is not conclusion; *it is experience. There is no need of calculating. So one who has got better experience, he can say like that. Calculation and experience. Just like if somebody says, "Two plus two plus two plus two," somebody says immediately, "Six." And another calculates, "Two plus two plus..., six." So experience and calculation. Lacks experience, he calculates. One who has better experience, he doesn't calculate. One who knows past, present, and future, he doesn't require to make calculation. He knows everything. So God knows past, present, and future, and others who are favored by God, he also knows by the grace of God. Because he hears from God. God knows past, present, and future. Then he simply reproduces God's words, that's all. He doesn't require to calculate. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ [Bg. 8.17]. The Kṛṣṇa says. Now, we can say what is the age of Brahmā by Kṛṣṇa's words. I don't require to be a very expert astrologer or astronomer. I hear from Kṛṣṇa, and I reproduce. Just like child. Father said, "This is this; *" I say, "This is this." That's all. The child is not perfect, but when he says, "Father said this is this," that is perfect. Therefore our process of gathering knowledge from the father*-we don't calculate or don't concoct or put theories, no. We don't do that. This is called śruti, śruti-pramāṇa, evidence from śruti. Guest (4): Lord Kṛṣṇa says in *Gītā* that, to Arjuna, that when Sūrya is uttarāyana, people who die, they'll go to Candraloka, and come back. Prabhupāda: Yes. So you quote that. Then it is perfect. You don't require to make research. Your research is no good because your senses are imperfect. I have no proper vision. If the light is stopped, I cannot see. This is the position of my eyes. So what is the use of my seeing? It is conditional. So one who is conditional, how he can give perfect knowledge? One who is not conditional, he can give perfect knowledge. Therefore we have to approach somebody who is not conditioned. Then we get perfect knowledge. Guest (5): I have great difficulty with the meaning of the term "perfect knowledge." Could you... Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge means what you say, it is correct. There is no mistake. Guest (5): Under any and all circumstances. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge, not like the scientists. They changes: "Yes, it was this. Now it is now changed." This is not perfect knowledge. They simply change. Therefore we say, mūḍhās. Perfect knowledge is that what you say, that is correct forever. That is perfect. Just like man dies. If somebody says, "Man dies," it is perfect knowledge. It is correct forever. Guest (5): Suppose he is reincarnated? *Prabhupāda: No, no, "dies" means the body dies. The soul does not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. When the body annihilates... Body becomes old. Just like this cloth. I am using it, but when it will be old, no more useful, then I throw it away. I get another dress. This body is like that. Soul is eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. It does not die, it does not take birth, but because he is in material condition, therefore he has to change the material body because no material thing is permanent. Therefore the aim of life should be how to avoid this material body. That is real business. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā. That is called athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is only business, how to stop acceptance of this material body. And that is very clearly and simply stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma karma me divyaṁ yo janāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. We can do that. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you are not going to accept any more material body. That means there is no more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more, and what is called, old age. Guest (4): But is it possible to lead the life of a gṛhastha and at the same time think of that? Prabhupāda: Well, Arjuna was gṛhastha and a king and a politician. If he could learn within half an hour the aim of life, then where is the difficulty for a gṛhastha? Arjuna was not a sannyāsī. So it was spoken to him only, and Kṛṣṇa selected that "You are the right person." So there is no question of gṛhastha, sannyāsī. The person must be right to understand. Guest (4): Is it possible to develop some such kind of psyche? Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Arjuna was not willing to fight. Then he developed; "Yes, I must fight for Kṛṣṇa." That is development. Guest (4): So there is no conflict between the... Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha is also āśrama. It is as good as sannyāsa āśrama. You can accept any āśrama suitable for you, but āśrama means cultivation of spiritual knowledge. That is the difference between āśrama and ordinary house. Now, this building is called temple, and the next building is called house. Why? The building is the same. But it is meant for cultivating spiritual knowledge. Therefore it is called temple, to understand God. The other house is meant for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Therefore they are house. So you can change your house into temple provided you try to understand God. Then it is āśrama. Otherwise it is house. Guest (4): But is it possible to jump from brahmacārī to directly sannyāsa? Prabhupāda: It is not jumping. It is regular process. Guest (4): One should go through all the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like student. Then he becomes a family man when he's grown up. Then he becomes again a sannyāsī. So it is a process. It is not jumping. One after another. Guest (4): Yes, but would you allow one of the devotees to, if he wants to, observe celibacy and then... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is brahmacārī. Guest (4): And after that... Prabhupāda: After that, he should continue the life of celibacy. But if he is unable, then he's allowed to marry. Guest (4): Because (Sanskrit). You cannot suppress your karma. Prabhupāda: There is no question of supressing. Regulating. Guest (5): Do the same rules apply to women as to men? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that in the society women, working class, and the mercantile class, they are, according to Vedic scripture, they are less intelligent, women, working class and mercantile men. Just like mercant..., they are after money, that's all. And śūdra, they want, after job. And women means they are after fulfilling their material desires. They have no other idea, that there is Brahmān, one should know Brahmān... They do not care to know. Therefore they are called śūdras, stri, śūdra, vaiśya. Yes. Vaiśya. So Kṛṣṇa says, Guest (5): Can a woman become sannyāsī? *Prabhupāda: Why sannyāsī? Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya [Bg. 9.32]. He does not say to become sannyāsī. He said, "One who takes shelter of Me very firmly..." We have to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. You become sannyāsī or not sannyāsī-it doesn't matter. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. He never says that "You become sannyāsī." He never said. The qualification is how to become firmly fixed up at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is qualification. But sannyāsī is a process. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha*-that is a process. But one who takes directly shelter of Kṛṣṇa is above all these processes. Guest (4): That which Śrīla Gandhi was working against? Prabhupāda: If I say the truth you'll be angry. (chuckling) Guest (4): No, no one will be angry, but you have mentioned... *Prabhupāda: Gandhi was a politician. What does he know about dharma? He was a politician. He thought it wise that British government is very strong... Before him so many political parties tried to become violent, and they were all curbed down. This Aurobindo also was a leader of anarchist party, and when he was condemned to death, then his senses came: "This is all useless. Let me engage in performing yoga." So Gandhi thought that before him all these violent movement was cast down by the British. So he took it as a method, nonviolence, noncooperation, and to capture the public of India-India is generally inclined religiously*-he became a mahātmā. But mahātmā is different. A mahātmā is not interested in politics. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ-prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg. 9.13]. That is mahātmā. Mahātmā has nothing to do with politics. Guest (5): The term mahātmā was first used to describe Gandhi by Annie Besant. Prabhupāda: Yes, one can use any term without any sense. Guest (4): No, I think it was by Rabindranath. Prabhupāda: They... Anyone can. Rabindra Bābu was also like that. (laughter) He was a bābu, but he became guru. This is going on. *Guest (4): That means that about this varṇa-saṅkara etc-Lord Kṛṣṇa mentions in Gītā*-that this present day society is varṇa-saṅkara. *Prabhupāda: Varṇa*-saṅkara. There is no varṇāśrama; *therefore all the children, they are varṇa-saṅkara. And as soon as there is varṇa-saṅkara population, the world becomes hell. Therefore we are trying to check-"No illicit sex"*-to stop this varṇa-saṅkara. Now the varṇa-saṅkara has come to such an extent that they are killing child, and that is legal. They have come down to such a extreme position. Guest (4): But surely there is a practical point of view also. There is nothing to eat. What will happen? Prabhupāda: Who says nothing to eat? That is also their manufacture. Guest (4): I mean the figures which are published that half of humanity will starve. *Prabhupāda: It's... Especially, we are Indian. It is advertised that we are poverty*-stricken. All over the world this is advertised. Wherever I go, they say, "Oh, you are coming from India?" (laughter) Because they are simply begging, the government. But who is dying? There is... Dying is going on, but that death is going on in other countries also. They are dying, committing suicide. And maybe some persons are dying out of starvation. You cannot stop death. Suppose you have got enough food. That means that everything is solved? In America there is enough food. Why they are coming hippies? There is no shortage of food. Nothing... Everything is abundant, but why they are becoming hippies? They are lying down on the street, on the park and I have seen in London, the St. James Park. They are sleeping, and the police is kicking: "Hey! Get up! Get up!" So why? The English nation is not poor nation. The American nation is not poor nation. Guest (4): Poverty is also a comparative term. *Prabhupāda: No, I saw in Amsterdam*-simply full of hippies, lying down on the street, lying down in the park, no food, no shelter. It is going on. Guest (2): The hippies are not lying in the park because they lack food. Prabhupāda: They must be wanting something. They are in need of something. Guest (2): But not necessarily food. Prabhupāda: One body is in need of food; another body is in need of something else. They're needy, everyone, needy. That you have to accept. I have seen in Los Angeles. I was walking in the Beverly Hills quarter. One hippie boy is coming from a very nice house. Beverly Hills, that quarter, is resided by all rich class. And he has got very nice car, but he's hippie. Why? His father is very rich man. He has got nice car. He might be very educated. Then why he is hippie? What is the answer? Hanumān: He's frustrated. *Prabhupāda: That means in need. So that is the question, that you may be in need of food, I may be in need of some woman, he may be in need of some money... In this way everyone is needy. Therefore ultimately one should search after God, when every need will be fulfilled. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, he went... He was in need of an empire like his father. For that reason he went to the forest and performed all kinds of austerities, and when he saw God he said, svāmin kṛthārto 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I have no more need. Everything is fulfilled. I don't want anything." He... God said, "Now whatever benediction you want, you take from Me." He said, "No, I don't want anything. Now everything is fulfilled." So that is the real need. The child is crying, and he is not stopping crying. So many others coming. But as soon as his mother comes, he will stop. He understands immediately, "Now I have got the thing, my mother." So the real need is Kṛṣṇa. That is missing. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All these Western students, they were in need. Now they have got Kṛṣṇa. This young man, twenty*-four years old, he has got all the desires for enjoyment, but he's no more after enjoyment. He's a sannyāsī. He's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why? [break] ...playing jugglery? He becomes God. So even the so-called yogis, they are in need. The so-called jñānīs, they are in need. The so-called karmīs, they are also in need. Only the bhakta... That Dhruva Mahārāja, he said, "No, I am not in need." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. So therefore this is the only platform to bring man to feel completely fulfilled. So it is very important movement. So I request you all to study this movement and help and join this movement. It is very scientific, authentic, and real. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. If you want to be happy, you have to take Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy. Otherwise not. Guest (4): So dharma there means to the religious faith or duty? *Prabhupāda: No, dharma is duty, varṇāśrama*-dharma. That is also given up. That means the only duty becomes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya. In the beginning He said that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yes. Yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Now, He said that "I appear to reestablish the principle of religion." So at the last stage He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya. That means the so-called dharmas, or religion, which is going on in the world, they are not real. And the Bhāgavata therefore says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2], that "All kinds of pretending religion is rejected here." Pretending religion, what is that? Pretending... Just like gold. Gold is gold. If the gold is in the hand of some Hindu, then will it be called Hindu gold? Similarly, religion means obedience to God. So where is Hindu religion? Where is Christian religion? Where is Muslim religion? God is everywhere, and we are just meant for obeying God. That is one religion, obedience to God. Why they have manufactured this Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, this religion, that...? Therefore they are all pretending religion. Real religion is obedient... Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like law. Law is made by the state. The law cannot be Hindu law, Muslim law, Christian law, this law, that law. Law is meant for everyone. Obedience to the state. That is law. Similarly, religion means obedience to God. Then one who has no conception of God, no idea of God, where is religion? That is pretending religion. Therefore in the Bhāgavata you'll find, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: [SB 1.1.2] "All pretending type of religion is rejected." And Kṛṣṇa also said the same thing, sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up all this pretending religion. You simply surrender unto Me. That is real religion." What is the use of speculating on pretending religion. That is not religion at all. Just like pretending law. Law cannot be pretending. Law is law, given by the state. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. That is religion. If you follow, then you are religious. If you don't follow, then you are demon. Make things very simplified. Then it will be appealing to everyone. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for making things very simplified. Accept God, accept your position as God's servant and serve God. That's all, three words. You have no question? These boys? Hanumān: They don't speak English. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you don't understand English. Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) Hanumān: They're just amazed looking at you. Guest (6): (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: They said they are simply here feeling your presence, and they realize that you're very busy, and so they are simply feeling love for you. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Guest (6): (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: They said they have to go now. Prabhupāda: All right. Give them prasāda. Everyone should be supplied with. Guest (2): What do you see as the future of your movement and are you planning to... Prabhupāda: My movement is genuine. Guest (2): ...to choose a successor. *Prabhupāda: It is already successful. Genuine thing is always success. Gold is gold. If somebody is fortunate, he can purchase gold, but gold remains gold. If somebody purchases and somebody does not, it doesn't matter. Gold is gold. So future, gold future is always the same as it is at present*-if it is gold. If it is something glittering, that is another thing. Guest (4): But there must be somebody, you know, needed to handle the thing. Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are creating. We are creating these devotees who will handle. Hanumān: One thing he's saying, this gentleman, and I would like to know, is your successor named or your successor will... *Prabhupāda: My success is always there. Yes. Just like the sun is there always. It may come before your vision or not. The sun is there. But if you are fortunate, you come before the sun. Otherwise you remain in darkness. Sun is open to everyone. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement*-Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. But if you are fortunate, you come to the light. If you are unfortunate, do not. That is your choice. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You do it. Now it is your choice. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa or don't surrender. That is your business. We are canvassing everyone, "Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you'll be happy." Now it is their business to take it or not to take it. But he can come. He can ask question and then "How? Why shall I take it?" That we are ready, to convince him. That is preaching. Hanumān: When you have come to United States, you had nothing... Prabhupāda: I came to give you. Some of you have taken, and some have not taken, so what can I do? I came to give you Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja ordered and I came. And... But some of you, you have taken, and most of, they have not taken. So that is another thing. But I came to deliver you the genuine thing. That's all. Hanumān: The way you have come is that you have come as though you've not come from a religion or nothing. You've come and everybody fall in love with you, you preach, and, Prabhupāda, we cannot deny you are the authority because you know everything, and your... Prabhupāda: Any way you take it, then you become happy. That's all. Of course, when you take it out of love... That is a fact. So without love, this transaction, because there is no price for it... All other transaction, there is exchange of price. Here there is no price, so out of love only, one can take it, not by paying any price. It is not possible. To pay the price of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible. Yes. Hanumān: You cannot force anybody to say, "I am the guru. I'm the (indistinct). Fall in love with me." Prabhupāda: Why shall I force? What is my... That is not my business. I am Kṛṣṇa's servant. I simply say, "Here is good thing. You take it." Now, Kṛṣṇa also says that. He does not force. Kṛṣṇa is God. He can force, but He does not do that. Guest (6): Good night now.(?) Prabhupāda: Bring prasāda for them. Hṛdayānanda: Prasāda? Guest (4): How long you'll stay? Prabhupāda: Here? Hṛdayānanda: About three more days. Prabhupāda: Three more days. That is in his hand. First of all give here. (prasāda being distributed) [break] Guest (2): *Gītā*, Kṛṣṇa, Caritāmṛta, and *Bhāgavatam*. You have other texts? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): What do you recommend? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti*-rasāmṛta-sindhu. We have translated it-Nectar of Devotion. This in... Guest (2): This is in Sanskrit or... Prabhupāda: No, English. Guest (2): Bengali? No, but original. Prabhupāda: Original Sanskrit. Guest (4): Apart from (indistinct) quality of Lord Rāma, are there a few other things which could be included while you are worshiping or devoting or meditating on...? *Prabhupāda: God has all the qualities that you can conceive. It is generally not... Bhaga(?), it is taken as six, six opulences. Bhaga means opulence, and vān means possessing. Bhagavat. Bhagavat-śabda. Bhaga means opulence, and vat means one who possesses. And the first word in bhagavat-śabda is bhagavān. This bhaga means six kinds of opulences: riches, then fame, then bodily strength, influence, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation. These are opulences. If one is very rich, people are attracted. If one is very reputed, people are attracted. If one is very strong, people are attracted. Influential*-attracted. If one is very beautiful, man or woman, he is also attractive. If one is very wise, he's attractive. And one who is renounced, he's also attra... So Kṛṣṇa has got all these qualification in full. That is the definition of God. Anyone who possesses all these qualities in fullness, not partially, that is God. This is the definition of God. Not that "I can produce one ounce of gold," but if he can produce all the mines of gold, he is God. Not cheap God. In that way everyone is God. (end) Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico Prabhupāda: Theory? Theory of? Professor: Knowledge. Ways to approach nature. Prabhupāda: So what is your decision? What is the position of the living entities? Professor: (indistinct) Hṛdayānanda: (translating) She says she's... They're more or less concerned with the theory of knowledge, rather than actually having some knowledge. Prabhupāda: What is that theory of knowledge? Professor: Yes. I had been studying the Sanskrit, the texts of Śaṅkara especially, the bhāṣya of Badarāyaṇa. Prabhupāda: No, theory of knowledge, how it is explained? Every living being has got knowledge. What is that theory of knowledge? Professor: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Every individual being has knowledge. Even a small ant, it has got knowledge. Knowledge... Of course, development of knowledge according to the body, but a living entity, even the trees, they have got knowledge. They grow... When there is some block, they do not grow that side; they grow this side. Is it not? Professor: Yes. Prabhupāda: So every living being has got knowledge. The basic knowledge, how to maintain, every one has got. Professor: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, knowledge... Living entity, by constitutional position, has got knowledge, but in connection with this material world, when this living entity comes to this material world, so according to the body, the development of knowledge differs. Professor: If one is following different stage, status of knowledge... Prabhupāda: Yes. Different stage of knowledge means different types of body. Just like a child. A child is talking in some way. The same child, when he will get a different body, youthful body, he'll talk differently. What do you think? Guest (1) (German Man): I would like to ask you a question. Once Leibnitz, who is one of the fathers of the Western tradition, formulated the question which was the beginning of metaphysics in a way, Western metaphysics. The question is "Why there is anything?" What is your stand about this classic point? Prabhupāda: Why? Guest (1): Why there is anything? Hṛdayānanda: Why anything exists? What is the reason for the existence of...? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) "Why anything exists?" (laughter) What do you mean by anything? Guest (1): Well, that's precisely the point. What is the purpose? What is the sense, if there is any, or does the very question make sense? Prabhupāda: No, no, unless understand what is that "anything..." First of all, you have to understand what is that "anything." Anything... Just like this book, this table, this bell, the electric they are so many things. So you can take any one of them; that is anything. What is your idea of anything? Guest (1): Oh, reality. Material, external, reality to our ego, our internal reality as well. Prabhupāda: Internal reality and external reality? Guest (1): Both. For me, the word "anything" covers both. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that also we understand, "anything." There are so many varieties of things, and you can take any one of them. That is "anything." But your question should be, "Wherefrom these things coming?" That should be the proper question. Professor: What is the reason of this (indistinct) "anything"? Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things, and you can take any one of them. That is "anything." But the real question should be "Wherefrom all these things are coming?" That is real question, "What is the origin of all these things?" Guest (1): Well, origin, that is more on the theoretical side. It's a question, "Why?" But I am, rather, after the purpose. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a nice question. But there is the real source of everything. That is the Vedānta*-sūtra... Perhaps you have read. Vedānta-sūtra, first question is: "Wherefrom all these things come?" So the answer is that janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "Brahmān. The original thing is Brahmān, or the Absolute Truth, and from Him, everything is emanating." Just like physical... The sun is there, and whole material world is product of the sunshine. What your physical science says? Eh? Eh? Do they not say? It is a fact that sunshine... Due to the sunshine all these material things are there. *Guest (1): Well, it's more involved than just saying that. Sun is just a big complex of hydrogen and helium, a big pile of rubbish really, but it develops this marvelous reactions which causes it to work as a big nuclear reactor, an entirely different story, what the vision of science, of the present science, about the meaning of celestial bodies and the meaning of, in particular, of sun and moon and so on. We are extremely realistic about this world. We can't see, assuming all the glory of that what happens on the earth due to the existence of those bodies, we do not try to look inside of the structure of these things, as something meant for us. Just universe as it is... And this question, like Nietzchean question which I am repeating-that's not my point*-this big question is... Western philosophy presently does not answer, does not ask this question. I think that this scientist who did ask it had quite a point. This question expresses the quest of the human race for some meaning for some sense, for some sense. That's what religion is now offering us, or philosophy, or... Rarely, directly, we hear the direct answer to that. Prabhupāda: What is your direct answer? Guest (1): Oh, I don't have any. If I would have, I wouldn't ask you. Prabhupāda: That means your knowledge is insufficient. Guest (1): Precisely. Precisely. That is the beginning of... Prabhupāda: Therefore, if you have no answer. That's all right. That "We don't know" means our knowledge is insufficient. But knowledge means must be progressive. We should not remain in insufficient knowledge. We must make further progress to get sufficient knowledge. Inquiry. Guest (1): But you referred to some other, more direct ways of acquiring knowledge than just the standard... *Prabhupāda: No, because we have got insufficient knowledge, we cannot approach directly. It is not possible. We have to take knowledge*-who has got sufficient knowledge, from him. Because you have got insufficient knowledge, so you cannot make progress. Just like beyond this wall, you cannot say what is there. That is insufficient knowledge. But that does not mean there is nothing. Because you cannot say what is beyond this wall, that does not mean that there is nothing beyond this wall. Your knowledge is insufficient. Is it not? Professor: But this was more or less my question... Prabhupāda: Just try to hear. Then... Professor: If Indian philosophy... Prabhupāda: No, no, it is no Indian or American. It is the philosophy. It is philosophy. The philosophy is not Indian or American. Truth is truth, not Indian truth or American truth. That is not truth. That is relative truth. The Absolute Truth is absolute. That is neither Indian nor American nor... Guest (1): But in what sense you use the concept "truth" here? Is it in the ontological sense, or is it in somehow in a more pragmatical human sense, refers to human beings or...? Prabhupāda: Yes, it is pragmatic, that you cannot see beyond this wall. That is your insufficient knowledge or your senses are insufficient. You cannot go beyond this wall. But that does not mean there is nothing beyond this wall. So if you want to know what is beyond this wall, you have to know from a person who knows it. Yes. Because you cannot see, you cannot know, that is not the end. There must be something. Guest (1): What? Prabhupāda: Eh? It is actual fact. That is pragmatic. It is actual fact. There is... So many things there are, but you do not know because your senses are imperfect. Your eyes are imperfect, your touch, imperfect, the gathering senses... The senses which gathers knowledge... Just like eyes... We can see and gather knowledge. We can hear; we gather knowledge. We can taste; we gather knowledge. So, because your senses are imperfect, therefore your knowledge gathered, that is imperfect. Professor: But in the case of a mystical man that has been able to see... Prabhupāda: There is no question of mystic. First of all we have to admit that on account of our senses being imperfect, whatever knowledge we gather, that is imperfect. That is imperfect. Therefore, if you want to possess real knowledge you have to approach somebody who is perfect. You cannot... Huh? Guest (1): How can we know that somebody is perfect? *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first of all, the basic principle is we have to understand that our senses are imperfect, and whatever knowledge we gather by these imperfect senses, they are imperfect. So if we want perfect knowledge, then we have to approach somebody whose senses are perfect, whose knowledge is perfect. That is the principle. That is the Vedic principle. Therefore the Vedic principle says, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You know Sanskrit, yes. "In order to know that perfect knowledge, one should approach guru." So who is guru? Then the next question will be... Your question is that, "How I can?" Guest (1): How can I know that...? *Prabhupāda: That I am coming. That I am coming. Guru... That is next line. It is said, śrotriyaṁ brahma*-niṣṭham. Guru means who has properly heard the Vedas, śruti. Śrotriyam. And as a result of his hearing he is firmly convinced in the existence of the Absolute Truth, God. Professor: Well, this is... We've only come to one of the mentioned(?) theories of knowledge, I think, śabda. *Prabhupāda: Sata? Śabda, yes, śabda*-brahman. Yes. Professor: Then if you are able to communicate to heart with knowledge through śabda, no? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śabda*-brahman. Just like many thousands of miles away we are getting some radio message and we learn that "Something is happening there. Something is there." Therefore śabda. This is... Śabda means sound, sound, sound vibration. So that is the real source of knowledge. That is the real source of... Śabda-brahman. Professor: One of the sources of knowledge or the only one? Prabhupāda: No, that is the only one. There are others; *they are subordinate. But the śabda, knowledge received, śabda, through śabda, śabda-brahman, that is perfect knowledge. Just like the same example: beyond this wall I cannot see, but if somebody there says, "This is the position here"-the sound comes*-that is perfect. You cannot see what is going on, but if somebody says, sends radio message or any message, sound, then you know. Therefore śabda-pramāṇa, śabda, knowledge received through śabda, that is perfect knowledge. Professor: That means through śabda, and through other means you can have a direct intuition but you can't intact... Direct intuition of things. *Prabhupāda: Intuition is different. Direct perception. Śabda, you can (have) direct perception. It is not intuition. It is perception. Therefore the word is used, śrotriyam brahma*-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. So our process is to receive knowledge through śabda-brahman, Vedic. Just like eko nārāyaṇa asit. Eko nārāyaṇa asit: "Before creation there was only Nārāyaṇa." Na brahmā na īśaḥ: "There was no Brahmā; *there was no Śiva." So this is śabda*-pramāṇa, śabda-pramāṇa, that "In the beginning there was God, nothing else." So in this way our Vedic principle is: when your knowledge is corroborated by the Vedic version then it is perfect. Professor: But according to Śaṅkara it is not only way that you can approach truth. You can also approach through deduction. *Prabhupāda: There are many ways. Just like hypothesis. Hypothesis. Yes. History, history. Hypothesis, history. Then direct perception. There are many. But of all these, śabda*-pramāṇa is taken as best. Śabda-pramāṇa, evidence through the sound. That is the best. Professor: No, but (indistinct). According to (indistinct). If one comes to value, existential value of a thing, through deduction... Is it possible or not only through intuition, through direct intuition of the reality of the whole?(?) Prabhupāda: Value by intuition? Professor: Direct knowledge of the existence of a thing, of anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. The knowledge of existence, that nityaḥ-śāśvato 'yam, nityaḥ ṣāṣvataḥ, that is knowledge of existence. So you have to learn which is nitya and which is not nitya from the authority. "This is nitya, and this is anitya." So nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). These are the Vedic version: "There is one chief nitya amongst the many nityas." Just like we, we living entities, we are nityas, eternal. First of all try to understand eternity. You were a child or I was a child. Now that body, child body, is no longer existing. But I understand, I know, that I had a body, child. Therefore I am nitya. I am existing. The body has gone, but I am existing. Therefore I am eternal, nitya. Is it clear? Professor: Well, I remember one other explanation, that when you are sleeping and you have a dream... Prabhupāda: No, when I am sleeping I am working. Professor: ...and you have a dream, and then, when you are coming back from sleep... Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: ...you can remember your dream. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: That means that you are conscious of your existence even on the suppression of consciousness. *Prabhupāda: I am not only conscious, but the consciousness depends on me. Because I am there, therefore consciousness... So I am nitya. This is the proof of nitya, that many changes have taken place, but the changes, the phenomenal changes, they have gone out. They are no more existing. Therefore they are not nitya. Just like dream. At night I saw one dream, but the dream is no more existing, but I remember that last night I saw the dream. Therefore I am nitya. And the dream is anitya. The dream is anitya. Similarly, this phenomenal world, when I am not sleeping, but I am so*-called awakened, so I am seeing. I am seeing you, I am seeing the table, this book, you see, but... (aside:) Don't... But when I am asleep I forget all these things. I forget. I am in a different world. I am seeing different things. So this is also dream, and the dream at night, that is also dream. But I, the seer of this dream and that dream, I am the eternal. Professor: The thing is not to make dependent on the conscious of any individual the existence of thing. Prabhupāda: Existence of thing... I say that at night, when I am dreaming, I do not see existence of these things. And at this time, in daytime, when I am seeing these things, I do not see the existence of the dream. So the conclusion should be both these things I see in daytime and I see at night, they have no existence. They are phenomenal. But I am the seer; I am eternal. I am existing. This is the proof. Because at night I am seeing and daytime I am seeing, so therefore I am eternal. But the phenomenal manifestation, they are temporary. We don't say it is false. Temporary. The Māyāvādī philo... Śaṅkara said it is false. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Mithyā means false. We don't say false. We don't say that this book is false. It has got reality, but temporary. This book has come into form at a certain date, and it will exist for certain days, and when it will be worn out or old, there will be no existence. Therefore the formation of this book is temporary. But I am the reader of the book; I am eternal. So two things are there, temporary and eternal. The temporary existence, somebody says, "False," but we say, "It is not false; it is temporary." But there is an eternal existence. Just like I am eternal. That is... We have to learn from śabda, vibration. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. You understand Sanskrit. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. That eternal thing is existing, it will continue to exist. Even after the destruction of this temporary body, it will continue to exist. Professor: But coming again to the question that Professor (indistinct) put to you, but it is possible to understand all those things (indistinct) Prabhupāda: You have to understand... I have already said that we have got our imperfect senses. We cannot understand. But we have to understand from a person who has got perfect knowledge. Professor: But why existence of all these things? *Prabhupāda: So? Why? Then the answer will be: "Why there shall not be existence?" First of all you answer this. If you question like that-"Why there is existence?"*-then I shall inquire, "Why there shall not be existence?" Therefore the decision should be taken from the Absolute. Your question, my answer, will not solve. If you say, "Why there is existence?" I can ask you, "Why there shall not be existence?" And who will decide this? Guest (1): If I may something, this basic question, I suppose, may be asked only on the level of all religion, all philosophy, which does not put a line of division between practice in life... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...and abstract investigations. Now, in normal Western thinking we do deny the very purpose of that question. As a matter of fact, we never ask it. Since time when Leibnitz did ask this question we all forgot it, or deliberately we suppress it. We simply say, "All right, let's be concerned only with those things which we can deal with effectively in material world. And the question of purpose let's leave aside." Now, I suppose that within this system of thought which you have... *Prabhupāda: I may tell you two things. The purpose is... That is experienced by every one of us, what is the purpose of life, what is the purpose, anything. That, everyone, we can understand very easily. The purpose is ānanda. Pleasure. That is the purpose. There is no difficulty to understand what is the purpose. The purpose is pleasure-seeking. Or purpose is pleasure. One who hasn't got the pleasure, he's seeking after it. That is the purpose. Purpose is ānanda. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is the Vedānta-sūtra. Everyone of us, seeking ānanda. The scientific knowledge, philosophy, or even driving the car or whatever you are doing*-the purpose is ānanda. That is a common factor. Purpose is... Why I am eating palatable dishes? I can eat anything, but I am seeking that "This sort of foodstuff will please me." That is ānanda. Guest (1): That is driving force and motivation of most human activities. But the question, purpose, which Leibnitz was asking for, he was asking on higher plane, in abstraction. Prabhupāda: Higher plane means you are seeking after pleasure, but that is being obstructed. That is your position. You are seeking pleasure, but it is not unobstructed. Therefore you are seeking higher, where there is no obstruction. Pleasure is the purpose, but when you speak of higher plane, that means you are experiencing obstruction in getting pleasure. So you are seeking a platform where there is no obstruction. But the purpose is the same. Guest (1): Must it necessarily be so? That would be so, supposing that we human beings are at the center of existence, and our criteria should be applied, measuring everything which exists. Now, the question, "Why there is anything?" is asked on the more higher level, in the sense, trying to forget about this answer for anthropocentric thinking. Prabhupāda: No, thinking... Guest (1): This question relates to everything what may exist, other beings, other intelligences. Prabhupāda: This is a fact, that intelligent or not intelligent, that doesn't matter. Everyone is seeking pleasure, ānanda. The Sanskrit word is ānanda. So ānanda... Suppose I am constructing a big house to live there, but before the construction is finished I am, by nature, I am taken away. I die. Just like Napoleon. That, in France, that Arc in Paris? Devotee: Arc de Triumph. Prabhupāda: He could not finish. You see? There are so many things. We are thinking, "By finishing this, we shall be happy," but that is sometimes hampered. So ānanda is checked. So this is the position. So higher means where ānanda is not checked. That is higher position. The purpose is ānanda, but in this material world we are experiencing ānanda being checked. Just like nobody wants to die. That's a fact. Why you shall die? I already discussed that I know that I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man, and now I have got this body, old man's body. It is now going to finish. So I am little anxious. Now, whatever ānanda I was drawing in my living condition, now it is going to be finished. But if we think properly that "I am eternal, so although the body will be finished, I'll not be finished..." This is very natural, that "I was not finished. Because my childhood body was finished, so I was not finished. My boyhood body was not finished; *I was not finished. My youthhood was finished, but I was not finished." Similarly, the conclusion should be: "Even though this body will be finished, I'll not be finished." That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tathā dehāntara prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhīra, one who is intelligent, he is not disturbed. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. So dhīra, one who is dhīra, sober, philosopher, he knows that "I am not going to be finished. I shall have to accept another body." Now, whether that body will be ānanda? That is the consideration. I'll get another body, just like I have got this body, after changing so many bodies. Moment after moment, we are changing body. That is the medical science, changing of blood corpuscles. So this body will be changed again. Then I will have to enter the mother's womb and packed up for at least ten months in suffocated condition. This is scientific, all. Then again I'll come out when the body is prepared nicely to come out and exist. So that period of formation of body is not ānanda. To remain compact in this way for ten months, it is not ānanda. It is not ānanda, just opposite ānanda. Then when we die... Die, death, means the miserable condition is so great that we cannot live. We have to go out. There is no ānanda. Then, when we have got this body, changing, there is no ānanda because we are sometimes diseased, and to become old man, that is also not ānanda. Therefore I am eternal. I am seeking after something which is eternal ānanda. Therefore next consideration should be that "Whether this condition of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease can be changed?" That is next question. And if there is possibility, then we shall try for it. But there is possibility here. The conclusion is: so long we get this material body... Because matter is not eternal. Anything you take, material-earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence and false ego-these are all material things. So these material things, they are not eternal, none of them. This table is created; it is not eternal. It will be finished at a certain date, anything you take. But I am eternal. So if I transfer myself in another nature which is eternal, then my ānanda will be eternal. That is the purpose of life. Professor: No, but the point is the identity between ātmān and... Prabhupāda: Yes, I am ātmā. You are ātmā. Ātmā. Professor: ...the ātman of the world, let's say, absolute... Prabhupāda: Yes. The ātmā and Paramātmā, Paramātmā. As I was speaking, nityo nityānām. We are all nityas, eternal, but there is one chief nitya. Just like leader. Everywhere we go, we have got a leader. Now, this, your Mexico state, there is a president. You cannot avoid it. In your college there is principal. There must be a leader. Similarly, the whole thing taken together, there must be one leader. You have to speak from experience that in your physical department or in your religious department there is a chief, leader, professor. Or you may be. But that is the way. Therefore Vedic information is that we are eternal, but there is another eternal who is chief eternal. That is God. He is eternal; we are also eternal. Then what is difference? The difference is that eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān: "That one eternal, chief eternal, He is maintaining all the subordinate eternals." So both eternals are eternal and... The purpose is pleasure. Just like a small example, a family man. The father is the chief man in the family. The mother is there, the children are there, all together. But the father is the chief man in the family. He is maintaining the family, and there is ānanda, pleasure. Similarly, ānanda is the aim of both, all the eternals, the chief eternal or the subordinate eternal. But the supplier is the chief eternal. So when we come together, the chief eternal and the subordinate eternals, and enjoy together, that is the purpose of life. Professor: According to existential philosophy or Indian philosophy, like for instance the Ramakrishna and Vivekananda and all that... Prabhupāda: They are not philosopher. They have no philosophy. Professor: Eh? Prabhupāda: They have no philosophy. Professor: I think you are also supporting the possibility to acquire knowledge through contact. *Prabhupāda: Our position is-I have already explained*-that we are all imperfect. Therefore we have to take knowledge from the perfect. So God is perfect, or Kṛṣṇa is perfect, so we have to receive knowledge from Him. Then our knowledge is perfect. And so long we shall speculate, that is not perfect because you are speculating with imperfect instruments, what is the use? If I want to cut this table, I must have proper instrument. If I want to cut this table with this book, "Let me cut this," how it will be possible? You must know that for cutting this table it requires this instrument. Professor: Yes, they say that the only way to acquire knowledge is through śabda. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śabda*-pramāṇa. Professor: And I think other pramāṇas will be also possible according to those... *Prabhupāda: Just like I am trying something, and some experienced man says, "Do like this." This is śabda*-pramāṇa. The śabda-pramāṇa, one who knows, he says, "Do like this." The "Do like this," means śabda, sound, and it enters your ear, and you do adjustment. Therefore śabda-pramāṇa. Just like you are sleeping, and one is, another man is coming to kill you. And another friend says, "Get up, get up, get up! There is enemy. He is coming to kill you." Then you wake up. Therefore the sound is the pramāṇa, there was enemy. These are crude examples. When you are asleep, you cannot understand. You have got eyes, you have got hands, you have legs but no experience, but the ear gives you warning even if you are sleeping. There is enemy, your eyes cannot see, your hand cannot touch, but the ear can give you evidence, "Yes." As soon as you are awakened you say, "Yes, here is enemy. He is coming to kill me." Therefore the aural reception, sound reception, is the evidence. Knowledge received through authentic sound vibration, that is perfect. Guest (1): Let's just say I would like to ask a question in this way. We don't doubt what you said, the assumption that individual ego is eternal and also subordinate to that which is eternal, hierarchically higher, nevertheless is the part of that which is the eternal reality. And that is (indistinct) that which you later developed. Question, sir: Is this statement what you made, a statement of fact based on direct perception, or it is something what follows traditional belief and is just the axiomatic basis of your philosophy or similar other philosophies of axiomatic basis. Prabhupāda: No, this is axiomatic basis because you have to accept that your senses are imperfect. So you, by speculation, cannot have perfect knowledge. This is axiomatic truth. Guest (1): With that epistemological truth, all right we may go along, and, as a matter of fact, doubt about the truths of direct sensual perception is the basis, one of models of scientific activity. Prabhupāda: Direct perception... Guest (1): My question is, rather, this statement, this basic statement about eternal ego and so on, is a statement which you somehow give to us as revealed message, something what is..., Prabhupāda: Yes, revealed. Guest (1): ...or is...? Yes. Yes. *Prabhupāda: Revealed. It is revealed. Hm? Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā the vibration is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Now, you practically realize it: "Yes, what is said is correct." That is direct perception. First of all, you receive the message, and then apply your logic and see that it is fact. Therefore it is perfect. When you receive the knowledge and when you directly apply it to your perception, when you see it is correct, that is the proof that the message which you received, that is correct. Professor: Very difficult to have proofs of that, where the eternality of your own ātman for instance, things of that... *Prabhupāda: That is called realization. Yes. First of all you receive the sound, then apply your instruments, and when you find it, it is correct*-that is the realization. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. That's all. We are not perfect. But the knowledge we are getting, that is perfect. So according to that perfect direction, if we mold our life, then we are successful. Otherwise you go on experimenting, speculating. Ciraṁ vicinvan. Ciram, you understand, "perpetually," vicinvan, "thinking." Ciraṁ vicinvan. Professor: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: But that is the tendency of modern... They do not accept that their senses are imperfect. They want to see something, distant place, with microscope... What is called? Telescope. Telescope. But the telescope is manufactured by you. It is imperfect. Professor: But I would say that even in India, where ancient tradition... They would propose how to arrange our telescopes to be able to see more correctly. *Prabhupāda: You have to see... That... Vedic injunction says, śāstra*-cakśuṣā. Śāstra-cakśuṣā: "Your eyes should be the śāstra." There is another crude example. Just like who is your father? How do you understand? Through the vibration of the mother. The mother says, "He is your father." You accept it. Otherwise there is no experiment. So things which are beyond your perception, beyond your defective senses, that should not be speculated. Na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Acintyā khalv ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. These are the injunction. What is beyond your perception, beyond your speculation, don't waste your time so-called argument and logic. What is argument? Mother says, "He is your father." Where is the argument? You cannot apply any argument. Professor: No, I said old tradition in India has been going on into argument itself. *Prabhupāda: No, argument you can go on, but if you want to know the truth it will not be attained by argument because argument is also within your thinking power: thinking, feeling, willing. So if your thinking, feeling, willing is imperfect, what is the use of your argument? What is the use of your so*-called advancement of knowledge? Basically, if the senses, knowledge acquiring senses, are imperfect, then how you can get perfect knowledge? Professor: Well, then what do we with all techniques, all systems, that have been developed? I am thinking only India, I am not thinking other places, and all the old tradition, since Śaṅkara onwards, of different ways to think, to study, to go deeply to all these relations between... Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara has interpreted. Śaṅkara has interpreted by his limited knowledge. So that is not perfect knowledge. Therefore we don't accept Śaṅkara's philosophy. Professor: But I said if he belongs to the same tradition, and you belong to the other... Prabhupāda: That tradition is nothing. Tradition is just temporary. You make your tradition; he makes your tradition. That is another thing. But the, fact is fact. That is not dependent on tradition. Tradition we can make, tradition. "We believe." Just like somebody says, "We believe." What is the use of such saying, "We believe"? You may believe something which is not fact. Professor: Yes, but we could say that since the *Upaniṣads* and later, all things have been sustaining the thing which you have just said a moment ago, that there exists an identity between ātman and Brahmān. Prabhupāda: Identity is there. That, therefore, I have already said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānṁ. Both of them are identical so far nitya is concerned or cetana is concerned, but one is dependent, and other is maintainer. That is difference. Both of them are truth. Both of them truth. You are truth; I am truth. You are living; *I am living, existing. This is truth. This is truth, but you are professor and I am something else. That is temporary. But so far you are, as living being, and I am, as living being, that is truth. But your dress and my dress, that is temporary. So we have to understand like that. In this material world we are mixed up with temporary and eternal. The living entity is eternal, but his body is temporary. This is the position. So the problem is: why the eternal has got temporary things? That is hampering his ānanda. Just like I am sitting here. Now, if somebody says, "Now you'll have to die and accept another body," this is not very pleasing to me. Or even I am sitting in this apartment, and somebody..., "No, you change your apartment. Come. Come here." Again I change another apartment. So I'll seek after: "Why I am changing this apartment? Is it not possible to get an eternal apartment?" That should be the brahma*-jijñāsā. That is... Vedānta-sūtra first says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. "Why I am subjected to this change?" That is intelligence. "Why not eternal apartment if I am eternal?" That is intelligence. Professor: Did you say that for the ātman, are part of the eternal? For the ātman, it is... A need for the being is for the purpose, ānanda. Prabhupāda: Ānanda, yes. Professor: That means he is inquiring... Prabhupāda: Nature, nature ānanda. Professor: This other thing, they have it because of līlā, pleasure, playing. Prabhupāda: That is also ānanda. Just like somebody goes within the water. Nowadays it has become a fashion. What is that? Go within the water? Devotee: Diving. Prabhupāda: But he does not belong to the water, but he takes some pleasure. Professor: He needs the pleasure. Prabhupāda: Therefore he's seeking pleasure. That is the real aim. Therefore he's going into the water. He has no business to go to the water, but because he is seeking pleasure-"Let me see if there is some pleasure. Experiment." That's all. But he does not get... Just like they are going to the moon planet, moon planet: "Let us see." Because there is no ānanda, he is seeking another type of ānanda. And now they have failed. Now they're going to Venus or what? Devotees: Mars. *Prabhupāda: Mars. This is going on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. He's not seeking after where is eternal happiness. He's... Temporarily, he's seeking here, there. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. In this way his life is finished, seeking ānanda, and he gets another body, another term. So his intelligence is not coming to the point that "What is this ānanda? I am eternal. I am seeking eternal ānanda. Why this ānanda? Sometimes this body, sometimes this position, sometimes that position*-what is this?" That is intelligence. Professor: I understand it very well from the point of view of particular individual and ātman... Prabhupāda: Individual, we are part and parcel. The same thing: the supreme eternal, and we, means subordinate eternal. We are of the same quality. Quality is the same but quantity different. Therefore our knowledge quantity and his knowledge quantity different. Therefore we should take knowledge from Him, who has large quantity of knowledge. We have got tiny quantity of... This is the difference. He is also cognizant, I am also cognizant, but his knowledge is vast, unlimited; *my knowledge is tiny. Therefore, if I want to know more, we should know from Him. That is perfect knowledge. Tad*-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12]. This is the process. Professor: May I ask a personal question? Prabhupāda: Hm? Professor: I heard that you were a chemist before. Prabhupāda: I was not chemist, but I was manager in a big chemical factory. Therefore, automatically, I learned something of chemist. And later on I started my own chemical factory. Professor: You were belonging to Bengal? Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor: And you were having also a guru there? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. Without guru how can you... Professor: Yes, naturally. Prabhupāda: He is my guru. Show the photo. Devotee: It's just above you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He is my guru. Professor: But you are of the same line of Puruṣottama Sarasvatī, the great philosopher, no? Prabhupāda: Puruṣottama Sarasvatī? No, my Guru Mahārāja was Sarasvatī, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Professor: Oh, Bhakti... So that's the same line, no? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That receiving the perfect knowledge... There is paramparā. Just like I have got perfect knowledge. I tell you. Then you get the perfect knowledge. You tell him. This is called paramparā. Professor: I read something like that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Without that paramparā the knowledge is not perfect. Give them prasāda. Hm? Hṛdayānanda: We're going to bring you some prasādam? Spiritual food. Professor: You are traveling all Latin America now? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have traveled all over the world in eight years. Eight years? From 1967, eight years. So eight years I have traveled around fourteen times or more than that. No, twice in a year, almost. Professor: (laughs) Prabhupāda: No, this time, I started from India. Then I went to Hong Kong, from Hong Kong to Tokyo, from Tokyo to Honolulu, from Honolulu to Los Angeles, and from Los Angeles here, Mexico. And then where? Hṛdayānanda: Caracas. Prabhupāda: Caracas. Hṛdayānanda: And then Puerto Rico. Then Miami, Atlanta, New York, London. Prabhupāda: And then, from London, I may go directly to Bombay, or I may visit some other European cities where we have got temple. In Paris, in Geneva, in Rome, in Amsterdam, we have got some temple, like this. Professor: What you're going to do about...? Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books? These are our books. Professor: I saw them.(?) I think I had a talk somewhere with... Prabhupāda: We have got our small and big book. Fifty books we have got. All about Kṛṣṇa. Professor: I understand that music plays an important role also in the preparation of... Hṛdayānanda: If music is important to us? *Prabhupāda: No, first of all, our basic principle is pleasure. So whatever gives pleasure, we accept. That is natural. But in the material world, they take material pleasure, but we are for spiritual pleasure. So as soon as we speak of pleasure, there must be varieties. Without... Variety is the mother of enjoyment. So the only thing is that the material pleasure, that is temporary. It is finished after certain period, and spiritual means eternal. So our endeavor is to transfer ourself from this material pleasure to the spiritual pleasure. But the pleasure is the aim, either in this material world or in the spiritual world. This is... Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). This is the Vedic... Our position is ānandamaya, to remain in pleasure. But here in this material world, the body is temporary, and everything is temporary. Therefore pleasure is temporary. Professor: You could also, I think, offer a yoga system for... *Prabhupāda: Yes this is bhakti*-yoga. Yes, bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogena manasi. Bhakti-yogena manasi [SB 1.7.4]. There is a verse in Bhāgavata. Real yoga means bhakti-yoga. Guest (1): The question is, well, Vedic idea that knowledge, human knowledge, is imperfect, does that not then go along... Of course, we are limited by, all time by biological limitation and so on. But this statement, that there is perfect knowledge, that it can be acquired, and that there are some people who did acquire it, that's very strong statement indeed, and my question is of the practical nature. How one can know that given source of supposed spiritual truth is an actual truth? Is there any technique how one can get to it? Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that you take the vibration from the Vedic knowledge and you experiment it. Observation and experiment, that is scientific. So first of all observation and then experiment. And when you are satisfied by experiment, then it is perfect knowledge. Guest (1): If I am satisfied? Can I rely that much on myself? *Prabhupāda: Anyone can do, provided he knows the art how to do it. It is a technique also. You cannot make experiment as a crude man. You must be expert. But it is... In our Caitanya*-caritāmṛta you'll find that there is a statement, caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra: "Just try to make an experiment on the mercy of Lord Caitanya." Vicāra karile citte pabe camatkāra: "When you make an experiment, then you'll be awe-full 'Oh, it is so nice.' " So it is not to be accepted blindly. Professor: Can one perceive by their own senses what is that...? *Prabhupāda: No, you have to see through the eyes of the śāstra, but God has given you the instrument by which you can make an experiment. Yes. The same thing, as it is stated... Find out that verse from Bhagavad*-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. [break] This is the statement. Now you make experiment. You have got physical laboratory. (laughter) Guest (1): It would be rather difficult, I'm afraid. Prabhupāda: That you must know the, how it can be experiment. It is given. The example is given that... What is that? "As the child is passing"? Hṛdayānanda: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death." Prabhupāda: That's it. Now, this is a fact. Everyone knows that body is changing. Now, how the last body's changed? That you make experiment, how it is passing. Yes. To make experiment means you have to know the science how to make experiment. That is knowledge. You take the basic principle of knowledge, and then you make your experiment and you will know this is perfect. Guest (1): Is there any direct line of division between that which you would call knowledge and that what you call religion? Prabhupāda: Religion, as it is passing on at the present moment, "a kind of faith," this is not religion. This is not religion. According to... Religion means dharma, the characteristic. Just like you are eating something salty, something sweet. So the sugar, the characteristic, it is sweet. That is religion. And the salt is salty. The chili is pungent. So these characteristic is religion. So you'll have to find out religion, what is your real characteristic. That is religion. Now, religion is going, "I believe in this way." That is another thing, sentiment. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion, mental speculation. Those two things must be combined, philosophy and sentiment. Then it is religion. (end) Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico Hanumān: This gentleman is the director of the Great Universal Fraternity here in Mexico. They're the biggest, probably the biggest yoga society in South America. They are following one guru, a European, it's called Bhakta (indistinct), and he's very interested to have your darśana. Prabhupāda: (indistinct) We are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, Yogeśvara. Hṛdayānanda: You speak English? Director: No. Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) (translates throughout) *Prabhupāda: ...master of all mystic yoga. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. What is that verse? Yatra yogeśvara, Bhagavad*-gītā. Who will find out? Yes, in the last portion of the Eighteenth Chapter. Yatra dhanur-dharaḥ pārtho yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. I think it begins with yatra. *Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I know where it is. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. Here. This is yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bg. 18.78]. Read that? Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra pārtho dhanur*-dharaḥ, tat... (door opens) Hanumān: This is Mr. Coruna Cortez. He's the administrator of the Institute of Science and Education. He said he is a philosopher. Prabhupāda: Karuna? Mr. Cortez: Cortez. Arjeo Coruna Cortez. Prabhupāda: From India? Karuna? Hṛdayānanda: Mexican. Prabhupāda: Oh, Karuna is also an Indian name, Karuna. Hanumān: And the lady here is a psychologist. Prabhupāda: Oh. Hṛdayānanda: I can explain to them what I'm doing. (Spanish) Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the topmost yogi, Yogeśvara. [break] Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) [break] Hṛdayānanda: He said he has studied all of Western philosophy, he's not that familiar with Eastern philosophy, and his present interest is in the philosophy of anthropology. He's interested in studying man, his body, also the spirit, how man can transcend his body, and that he has come here because he wants to learn something about the philosophy of the East. Prabhupāda: And this girl is psychologist? Psychologist (Lady): (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: She works in an institute of psychology, and she is particularly studying human conduct, why people act the way they do, and she's also interested in learning something about our philosophy. Prabhupāda: If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity? Psychologist: No. *Prabhupāda: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements*-earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body-mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process? Psychologist: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: She says in her... In the field of psychology also they admit also, they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, she is very interested to know about it. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the law. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, "The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body." You find out that verse, na jāyate na mriyate va kadacit. Read it. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: So the soul transmigrates to another body. That is the evolutionary process for anthropology, basic principle of anthropology. So in Darwin's theory there is no admission of the soul. Therefore it is imperfect. The soul transmigrates from one type of body to another type. And then there are 8,400,000 forms of body. So when we get this human form of body we get all intelligence. And we should utilize this intelligence how to stop this transmigration of the soul from one body to another. So what is your opinion? Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: (translating) If there's a certain criteria of proof or a certain evidence that we can know for certain that there actually is such transmigration of the soul? Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the baby is, the soul is, transmigrated from baby's body to child's body, child's body to boy's body, boy's body to youthful body, so the body vanishes, and because the soul remains, he gets another body. Now I am old man. I remember I had a child's body, I was lying down. I quite remember it. But that body is not existing. So this is the example. Everyone has experience. This is transmigration of the soul from one body to another. And at the time of death, the psychological condition of the mind will carry me to a suitable body, and I shall enter into the womb of my mother through the semina of the father, and the mother will give that a particular type of body, and when it is completely manufactured, then I come out and begin my again. Therefore we find varieties of forms, but in each and every form there is the soul. Now, in the human form of life, we should utilize our intelligence that "This constant change of body, how it can be stopped?" And we should remain in our eternal body because I am eternal, but psychologically I am simply changing different forms of body, and at the time of change of body I have to undergo so many sufferings. To remain within the womb of the mother for ten months in packed up condition, it is a very terrible punishment. But for each new birth, we have to undertake this terrible suffering. Sometimes nowadays they're being killed. So to avoid all these dangers, one should try to remain in his spiritual body so that there will be no more chance of accepting material... Find out this, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: What is the purport? Hṛdayānanda: (reads Spanish) Psychologist: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: She wants to know what disciplines we have, what practices we have. Also she had a misunderstanding. She said "for the beginners," so I was explaining it was the same for the beginners. Prabhupāda: The main principle is, to understand spiritual subject matter, one must be sinless. You find that verse, Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: He says if to be sinless is not something more profound than simply restricting the body from some things, if there's not a more profound aspect of sinlessness. Prabhupāda: The body is consider... Just like if you have got high fever, you cannot act your brain. Hṛdayānanda: You cannot? Prabhupāda: Act your brain. Similarly, this is also like fever, sinful fever, so you cannot act your brain for understanding higher spiritual matters. Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: He's saying, "What is sin, then?" Prabhupāda: That sin you have explained. These are the four principles of sinful life. This can be avoided. Just like these European, American boys. They were also addicted to these sinful activities, but now they have given up, and they are understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness very nicely. Material life means sinful life. Therefore we have to act materially under regulation. Just like a man suffering from some disease, he has to live under the direction of the physician. Otherwise his sufferings will continue. [break] Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) *Hṛdayānanda: I'm going to translate piece by piece so I can tell you exactly what he's saying. He's saying that he understands perfectly well that a human being should look for a way for self*-control and to control the physical force within him, but there's also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension which also has to be taken care of. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā the social dimension is described, cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Find out this verse. You read. Hṛdayānanda: *Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments*-the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg-so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition. Psychologist: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: If our chanting is a form of prayer? Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting is a spiritual method for cleansing our heart. Because all dirty things are there in the heart, if the heart becomes clean, then we can understand things as they are. The first misunderstanding, that everyone is thinking that he is this body, this is due to ignorance. So when one is cleansed he can understand that he is not this body; he is separate from the body; he lives within this body. Therefore when the person leaves this body it is dead lump of matter. So people are giving more importance to the lump of matter than to the real person within the body. Just like a bird is within the cage, the cage is being washed very nicely and no food to the bird. Therefore the bird is in disturbed condition, and he's crying, "Khan, khan, khan, khan." This is going on. They're giving stress on the cage, not the bird within the cage. Neither do they know that the living being is within this material body. Psychologist: (Spanish) *Hṛdayānanda: Can someone achieve self*-realization without a guru or does he need a guru? *Prabhupāda: How do you think like that? Is there anything within this you world which can be learned without guru? Even if you become an ordinary carpenter, you have to learn from an expert carpenter. So how you can imagine to learn the topmost subject matter without guru? This is... The Vedic injunction is, therefore, tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham [MU 1.2.12], samit-pāṇiḥ, like that. We must have a bona fide guru to train us in the understanding of spiritual matter. Guru means who knows the thing, who can teach you. That is guru, not a humbug guru, but guru means one who knows. Tattva-darśinaḥ, one who has seen the truth, he can become guru. Find this verse, Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) Thank you. Prabhupāda: So I have to go, bathroom. Give them prasādam. (end) Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas Professor: (translated into English by Hṛdayānanda) He says that he agrees that the goal of life is not that, but that from his childhood he's been trained in a certain way, and he has not been taught anything else, and how can he achieve a different way of life? Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are teaching in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how you can change it. Therefore we asking all leading men to understand this movement and join it. That is our request. Professor: There is a question I would like to ask. I do know that it is not the aim of life just to every morning keep your family, go to bed and have sex. But it is part of life. Prabhupāda: That I know also, everyone knows. But beyond that, there must be some aim of life. Professor: But being so... I think that there is... There should be some kind of humbleness, the necessary humbleness. Prabhupāda: No, humbleness is of course good qualification, but the humbleness you will find in animal also, very humble. If you cut his throat, he will not tell anything. So humbleness also, that is another thing, but what should be the aim of life? What is the actual aim of life? If we forget the aim of life and simply become humble like ass, is that very good qualification? The ass is very humble. You load upon it tons of loads. It will not protest. Very humble. Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) He says that the goal of life is to achieve the transcendence. Prabhupāda: Yes, right. The goal of life is realization of transcendence. So, that they are forgetting. They have made their goal of life as sense gratification. (translated into Spanish by Hṛdayānanda) Professor: What kind of transcendence would that be? Prabhupāda: Transcendence means the Absolute Truth. What do you mean by transcendence? Professor: By transcendence, I understand it, the universal consciousness. The search for God. Prabhupāda: Yes, right you are. This life, human life, is distinguished from animal life because the animal cannot inquire about transcendence. The human life, if it is not interested in transcendence, then he is animal. If simply he is interested with the bodily demands of life, namely eating, sleeping, sex and defense, these are bodily demands of life. So if we think that "Dog is eating on the street, and we are eating very palatable dishes, nicely made, very tasteful. That is advancement of civilization," that is not advancement of civilization because it is, after all, eating. Similarly, sleeping; *the animals sleep on the street and we sleep in very nice apartment. But in sleeping, we dream horrible things more than the animals. So eating, sleeping, sex life and trying for defense, these are common formulas both for the animals and for the man. Therefore a human being is distinguished from the animal when he enquires about transcendence. And that is explained in the great literature Brahma*-sūtra, or the philosophy of Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now we have got this human form of life. We must enquire about the Brahman, or transcendence." So our bodily necessities of life should be simplified as much as it is required. We must save time for enquiring about transcendence. So unless we enquire about the transcendence, then we are two-legged animals. This is culture, this is the aim of life. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that in European history many, many people, in the name of looking for transcendence, there have been so many wars, hatred between men, and, you may know, in Spain they had what is called the Inquisition where they burned so many people. And so he's saying, psychologically, that his brain tells him that in the name of searching after transcendence there has been so much bad, so how is this different? Prabhupāda: The difference is transcendence is beyond our mind, bodily activities, mental activities or intelligence. The European philosophers and transcendentalists, they do not know actually what is transcendence. They understand that there is something, but they do not know what it is. Therefore they speculate by their imperfect senses. Gradually it becomes craziness. Therefore you find that defect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So do you mean to say that this is just a contemplative thing that doesn't really have a active influence upon the society to change the different...? Prabhupāda: No, we must first of all understand that our senses are imperfect. Just like we are sitting in this room. We have got our eyes, but we cannot see what is there, going on, beyond this wall. The sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, and we are seeing just like a disc. So the eyelid is just near the eyes, but we cannot see what is the eyelids. If the light is off, we cannot see. So we can see under certain condition. Then what is the value of our seeing? If we, even if we manufacture telescope, that is also manufactured by the imperfect senses, so it is also not perfect. So anything understood by manipulating our imperfect senses, that is not real knowledge. So our process of understanding real knowledge is to take it from the person who has the real knowledge. Just like if we contemplate or speculate who is my father, it is never possible to understand who is my father. But if we receive the words from mother that "Here is your father," that is perfect. Therefore the process of knowledge should be not to speculate but to receive it from the perfect person. If we receive knowledge from a mental speculator, that is not perfect knowledge. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): What would be the mechanism or process to get this perfect knowledge and to purify our senses? *Prabhupāda: First of all we have to accept this truth, that perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect person. Just like I have given the example, who is my father. You can understand it from the perfect person, mother. If somebody speculates, "This gentleman may be your father, this gentleman may be your father," that is not perfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is with the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father." That is perfect knowledge. Just like, therefore, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, Hṛdayānanda: "The seers of the truth." Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to... Just like mother has seen the father. So her knowledge is perfect. But I have not seen my father. Because before my birth there was father, I do not know who is my father. The mother has seen the father. So you have to approach such a person who has seen the truth. That is the way of... Now you have to find out a person who has seen the transcendence and receive knowledge of transcendence from him. Then it is perfect. Professor: (Spanish) What I mean is that, you know. We are all imperfect because we are imperfect. Right? So how can a master, a person who really understands or who claims to really understand be able to know perfection, to see the truth, how can he with his imperfect senses... Prabhupāda: You are right, you are right. Professor: ...know the real truth. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore I say... Professor: How can I get with my imperfect senses the perfection brought by the master? Prabhupāda: The same example. Just like the mother has seen the father, and the mother says not only to her son but other gentleman that "Here is the father of the son." So the other gentleman who has not seen the father but on the verification by the mother, he accepts the real thing. Hearing from the perfect is also perfect. If I get the chance of hearing from the perfect, then I may not be perfect, but because I have heard from the perfect, what I say, that is perfect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he accepts that we can receive perfect knowledge, but then because I am imperfect I make an imperfect interpretation. *Prabhupāda: No, you are not allowed interpretation. As soon as you interpret, you become imperfect. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Don't interpret. Before this, all these rascals were simply interpreting and spoiling the whole thing. So this is the fact. Professor: So what you really are asking for is blind faith. Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. Perfect man is perfect. Unless you understand that he is perfect, don't hear from him. That is blind. Without knowing that he is perfect, if you hear, that is your imperfectness. Why should you try to hear from a person whom you do not know perfectly well that he is perfect? Hṛdayānanda: Can I translate that? Prabhupāda: Yes. If you hear blindly, that is your imperfectness. You must be first of all convinced that. "The person from whom I am hearing, he is perfect." Then your knowledge is perfect. Professor: That conviction is not the product of reasoning. *Prabhupāda: It is not convention. It is not convention. It is actually knowing that "I have approached this perfect man." Just like the same example: if you approach the mother of the son, she is the perfect to know the father, and if you have known from the mother that "This boy's father is this gentleman," that knowledge is perfect. Even though you have not seen while the father was begotten, giving birth, it doesn't matter. But because you have heard from the mother*-she is perfect-therefore your knowledge received from her is perfect. Therefore it is written, tattva-darśibhiḥ, "who has seen the truth." So you have to approach such person who has seen the truth. Professor: Well, that brings that to my original question again. How do I know who is perfect? Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you have to search out such person. Otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Now that question will be: "How to find out such person?" The next question will be. But unless you approach such perfect person, you cannot have perfect knowledge. That is a fact. Therefore the conclusion is that we should not speculate about perfect knowledge, but we should try to approach the perfect person and receive knowledge from him. This is the conclusion. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's more or less saying that in the Catholic church how they also demand the same type of faith. He said they all have a bad experience with that. And then he more or less... Prabhupāda: No, no, I can understand. The thing is that everyone can take advantage of this statement that "I am perfect." Just like so many rogues and bogus persons come. But it is your duty to know whether he is perfect. It is your duty to test whether he is perfect. That requires intelligence. If you unintelligently accept some bogus person as perfect, that is your fault. You must be assured that "The person from whom I am asking, he is perfect." Then you take it. Otherwise don't take. Professor: Can I put a question? Why do you always say, "From a perfect person"? Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge must be perfect; otherwise imperfect knowledge. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying why do you say a perfect person instead of saying a perfect philosophy? Prabhupāda: No, unless the philosophy is given by a perfect person how the philosophy can be perfect? Philosophy means searching after the truth. So if he does not know how to find out the truth, what is the meaning of his philosophy? I was a student of philosophy. My professor was Dr. Urquhart. He used to say that "Philosophy is the science of science." So unless he is a perfect scientist, how he can give science? Professor: I have other question. Why do we want to transcend? Prabhupāda: I am not wanting. I am simply distributing the transcendental knowledge. Professor: Will not transcendence be an illusion too? *Prabhupāda: No, no, there is proof. It is not emotion. What you say, you have no proof, but what I say I have got proof. What you say, you become your own authority. But what I say, I have got greater authority. Just like two lawyers speaking before the court*-the lawyer who gives quotation from the authority, he gains the case. Professor: Do you have any evidence? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Professor: Would you tell us your experiences in that field? Prabhupāda: Yes, that, of course, it will take time for you to understand. Because unless you are lawyer, you cannot understand while the other lawyer is giving quotation. But the court will accept. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He still wants to go on with the same question he asked before: If we are content just to purify ourselves or if we also want to help the society. Prabhupāda: No, you do not know what is self. How you will purify? You do not know what is self. Can you say what is self? Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Is it possible that he could spend his whole life trying to find himself and at the end of his life not find himself and meanwhile he didn't help the society? *Prabhupāda: Not only one life, but millions of life, you will not be able to know*-unless you change your policy. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): What is the value of the transcendence? Prabhupāda: Because you are transcendence. You are actually seeking transcendence because you are transcendence. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that because he doesn't know what the transcendence is, there's no value for him. It's only a name. He doesn't know why to look for it. Prabhupāda: Yes. So first of all, as I say, that you are also transcendence, you just try to know yourself first. Then you will know what is transcendence. You are the sample of transcendence, and if you see the sample, you can know the whole thing. Just like if you taste one drop of sea water, then you can understand what is the chemical composition of the sea water. Therefore your first business is to know yourself, that you are not this body. In this way, when you know yourself, then you know the original transcendence. Professor: Why do you make so much emphasis on (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Because without this, you are animal. Professor: What's wrong with being an animal? Prabhupāda: Animal means you are living a very risky life. Professor: A very...? *Prabhupāda: Risky life. The animal is always in danger. A dog is running, but at any moment he can be in danger. I have seen in my own eyes in New York. It is little in the off from New York. In I think in the month of December or January, a dog was jumping and he fell in the water pool and immediately died. It was so cold it collapsed immediately. So what is the use of this dog*-like jumping? Besides that, in the animal society there is no question of culture, religion, philosophy, science. Animal, they do not require it. And why man requires it? That means human society is searching after the transcendence. But without knowing the way, how to understand, they are now engaged in different way. You find out this verse from Bhāgavatam, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā na yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Find out. Kamasya nendriya-pritiḥ. Hṛdayānanda: It's in the first volume. Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? Find out this verse. Hṛdayānanda: They still have doubts on this point that how can we know that it's worth our trouble, that if we dedicate our lives to this searching for the transcendence, how can we be sure that at the end of it we won't have wasted our lives? How can we be sure that the transcendence is actually worth searching for? Prabhupāda: No, first of all you must understand the importance of the business. Then we can do it. If you do not understand the importance of the business, then you cannot do it. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that he feels that you've already answered this question, but that they didn't catch it, that he thinks the key is that you said that the truth is not outside, but it's actually within us. We have to find it within us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says why do you put so much emphasis on the personalism after liberation because it seems like to him that the ideal perfect thing would be the unity rather than having something separate. Prabhupāda: That is your ideal, imperfect ideal. Because you are imperfect. Professor: Are you perfect master? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, because I am heard from the perfect. I am not perfect, but what I say, that is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this dictaphone, but he has learned from the father, "This is dictaphone," so when he says, "This is dictaphone," it is perfect. The child is not perfect, but because he has heard from his father perfect, so the knowledge is perfect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): That if you are not perfect, how can you interpret the truth? Prabhupāda: Because I am giving the perfect truth. Anyone who will accept, it will act. Just like a child says that "This is dictaphone. If you use it like this, you'll get this result." That is perfect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that not all knowledge is so objective. For example, in the matter of understanding society, the communists have their theory, the capitalists have their theory, and there's millions of theories and so... Prabhupāda: That is not knowledge; that is art. Just like electrician. He knows how to mix the two wires and bring the current. That is not knowledge; that is a business or art for temporary recreation. And because he knows the art how to bring the current, it does not mean that he knows the Absolute Truth. So people are taking at the present moment electrician as the knower of the Absolute Truth. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks that the knowledge that you're giving is perfect because it is perfect knowledge and not because you are giving it. Because it is revealed knowledge, perfect because it is revealed. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone can take it. Just like we are giving knowledge of the Bhagavad*-gītā. So the Bhagavad-gītā is open for everyone; it is not for me only. It is for you also. That is our movement, that you take the perfect knowledge and be happy and make your life successful. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So he said one thing is to understand theoretically the knowledge, and the other is to practice it. What is the method for...? *Prabhupāda: Everything is there. All questions solved, economic, social, religious, politics, whatever you are*-plus transcendental knowledge. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said it seems to him that this involves a retiring from ordinary life, western life, and even maybe retiring from ordinary eastern life. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of western life or eastern life. The life... Just like westerners, they eat, and the easterners, they eat. Now the question is how to supply eating. [break] Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that the way we dress, our whole way of life, will make our movement only available to a few people because it requires someone who is prepared to completely change his way of life. *Prabhupāda: Well, when there is question of knowledge, only you will find a few people to get the knowledge. When you put this question, "Find out some learned scholar," generally they will be very... Their number will be very little. But one thing is that if there is one man in real knowledge, he can give the..., distribute the knowledge to many. The example is just like ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: If you get one moon at night, that is sufficient to dissipate the darkness. And there are millions of stars*-it is useless. So it is necessarily not required that everyone should be in perfect knowledge. But if one man is in perfect knowledge, hundreds and thousands can hear from him and they can perfect(?). So it does not depend on the quantity; it depends on the quality. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that just like you give the example of the dictaphone, but it seems like if he just recorded the knowledge within his brain and then repeated it, that he would just be like an instrument, and he might not really be conscious of the knowledge himself. He'd just be transmitting it. It seems like... He thinks that's a defect because he's not really, he might not be conscious. Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't require. Just like I am working with this dictaphone. I am not a mechanic, but my business is going on. That is required. I have read the instruction paper, that "You use this microphone like this. You put this button," and three, four instruction. So I have learned it and it is giving my business. That's all. Just like this lamp, the instruction is "Push this button," (flicks light button) and it will go, all on. So I know I will get the light. Now I am not electrician. It doesn't require. That much knowledge is sufficient. But I want the light. So the electrician says, "Just put this button in this way. Light will be there." So my business is finished. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that for example he could listen to everything that you were saying, and then he could repeat it, and someone might say to him that "Oh, you are an expert. You are a master," but actually he's not. He's simply repeating. *Prabhupāda: No, this is example. By receiving a knowledge, you must corroborate by your knowledge or by your experience, by the method. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is said that Arjuna was declining to fight in the war. So Kṛṣṇa said that "You are simply lamenting on this body, but you do not know what is the active principle of the body." So this you can understand very nicely, that everyone is working for this body, but nobody knows what the active principle of the body. Without the active principle of the body, this body, alive or dead, is the same thing, lump of matter. So Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as teacher; therefore He is chastising him that "You are talking like a learned man, but you are lamenting on this body, but no learned man laments on this body, either dead or alive." Because without the knowledge of the active principle which is moving the body, what is the use of simply understanding the bodily construction? The medical science knows the construction of the body, anatomy, physiology, the bone, this muscle, the blood and everything, but he does not know what is the active principle. When the active principle gone, they cannot repair it. So there may be vast advancement of medical science, but if the medical science cannot check birth, death, old age and disease, then what is the use of it? It may have some temporary use, but actually it is not science. Nobody wants to die. Is there medical science which can stop death? So that knowledge may be temporary, beneficial, but ultimately, it is not the knowledge. I am anxious for not dying. Nobody wants to die. This is my anxiety. And where is that science, medical science? So we are satisfied with some temporary knowledge. We have no ultimate knowledge. And because it is very difficult subject matter, we have avoided it very carefully. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He does not see... He is disappointed because he does not see any difference between Hare Kṛṣṇa and all the other religions. Prabhupāda: That's your business, but we find difference. And we have no also difference with other religion. Now, other religions, they are also searching after God. But religion, conception of religion, without God is not religion. Do you admit or not? Professor (Hṛdayānanda): All the religions say they have knowledge of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, religion means searching after God. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says for example they have a new god which is money. *Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are imperfect, therefore you are thinking like that. Now, suppose you are on deathbed, can money save you? Then why do you say money is all*-powerful? God is all-powerful, but money is not all-powerful. Then therefore money cannot be God. Professor: Does religion or God, can give you eternal life? Prabhupāda: What is that? What he says? He says money is God. Professor: No, I am not saying that. People down here... Prabhupāda: People are rascal fools, what is the value of their knowledge? Therefore knowledge, man of knowledge required. Professor: There are many religions that have no God. Prabhupāda: Religion cannot be many; religion is one. If anyone says there are many religions, that, he does not know what is religion. Just like science: two plus two is equal to four. It is equally applicable everywhere. You cannot say that "To the Christian two plus two equal to five," the "Christian science" or "Christian mathematics." That you cannot say. Science and mathematics is the same everywhere. If God is one, therefore knowledge of God should be one. There cannot be two. Professor: No, that's ideally, but is not so. Prabhupāda: You hear. Because you imperfect, you have so many things. But we hear differently. Professor: I know that there is only one God. Prabhupāda: We say that God is one. Whether you accept it or not? Unless God is one, there cannot be God. God cannot be many. God means, in the dictionary it is said, "Supreme Being." The Supreme Being can be one. If there is competition of Supreme Being, then he is not Supreme Being. That is the philosophy. That is the philosophy. Then we have to find out who is that Supreme Being. You cannot say... You find somebody who has got little power. You cannot say, "Now here is God." The supreme power, that is God. Just like money, that is also one of the qualification of God. But money, He has got all the money. You may have got some money, some millions dollars. I may have got little more than that. But nobody can say, "I have got all the money." Or one can say that "I have got all the money," then He is God. Guests: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: They want to hear the translation. Prabhupāda: Yes. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Is the final goal of transcendence, then, immortality? Prabhupāda: All perfection. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Then what would that be then? What would that be, that all perfection? *Prabhupāda: That is transcendence. You come in contact with the transcendence, all*-perfect. Then you become all-perfect. Professor: Is God perfect? Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise how He is God? He is dog. Professor: Is transcendence God? Hṛdayānanda: They don't want to miss anything. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): They want to know: is God the transcendence? Prabhupāda: What is the transcendence? Find out the meaning. Hṛdayānanda: I can read it? First I'll read it in English. To transcend... It only has the word transcend. "Go beyond..." Prabhupāda: Not "to," the verb, I mean to say, transcendence. So find out the noun. Hṛdayānanda: Noun is not here. Prabhupāda: Not here? Hṛdayānanda: But I can change it into the noun. The transcendence: "That which goes beyond, that which exceeds the limits, rises above." And also transcendence means "that which transcends ordinary limits, the supreme, the preeminent." So I'll translate it. Prabhupāda: This is the meaning is there, that our mind, our bodily activities, our words, they are all limited. They are all limited. Do you accept or not? Professor: By time. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. It may be by time. Suppose a child, he can say, "I am now foolish for the time." But he is foolish at that time. That is not argument, that this child expects to become an M.A. That does not mean he can say he is M.A. at that time. So you cannot make time. Unless you are perfect in knowledge, you cannot say that you are in knowledge. Time, everyone has got the chance. In time he will be in perfect knowledge. That is not... There is no disagreement. But so long he is imperfect, he must admit that he is imperfect. Now, a businessman, a small businessman, he is trying to become millionaire, and if he says, "I will become millionaire in time," that does not mean he is millionaire. He must first of all become millionaire. Then he should claim. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): If he accepts that he is imperfect, what experience qualifies him to talk about God? Prabhupāda: That I have already discussed, that you have to go to the perfect and take his experience. And then, gradually, you become a perfect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So then everything would be an act of faith, simply to believe. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not believe. You just corroborate it with your experimental knowledge, and you will find it is right. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that... Professor: Excuse me. Hṛdayānanda: He says that in order... Prabhupāda: No, he wants to say something. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that in order to do any activity it requires some motivation. And so therefore one gets this realization by practicing, but it seems like someone would have to be a special person with something inside him in order to have the determination to practice it, in order to go ahead to try to get the realization. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that with his psychology he cannot accept that there should be some clue, some key, that could permit him to accept it. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That psychology is perfect where there is clue. Otherwise you will speculate all your life. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Then he's asking, he's humbly asking you to give him a little bit of the clue. *Prabhupāda: Yes, just like... It is very common sense clue. Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you were a child. So in your child body, you were present there, and in your boyhood body, you were present there. In your youthhood body, you were present there. Now you are middle*-aged. You are there. I am old man. I am there. So body, the childhood body, the boyhood body, the youthhood body, they are no more existing, but I am existing. Therefore I am eternal; the body is temporary. This is the clue. Therefore the conclusion is that as I have changed so many body but still I am existing, therefore, when I shall change this body, I will exist. Now, I have transmigrated from babyhood body to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. Similarly, I shall transmigrate to another body. A you..., young man can say, "No, no, I don't believe in the old body," but that does not mean he will not get the old body. He will get it by laws of nature. That is compulsory. Similarly, if somebody says, "I don't believe in the next life," that does not mean he is authority. Nature will give him. Nature will not agree or obey the imperfect person. The same example: if the young man says, "I don't want old body," nature will not hear him. Nature will give him, force him: "You must accept old body." Everyone does not want to die, but nature puts him forcibly: "Yes, you must die." So after all, we are perfectly under the control of superior authority. We cannot become independent, and our independent thoughts has no value. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks this will increase our problem because psychologically it's bad that nature is so big and we're so tiny. Prabhupāda: Well, you have already increased your problem. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How? Prabhupāda: There is no solution. There is no solution. You have no solution for anything, so you have increased your problems. Without perfect knowledge, you'll simply increase your problems. That's all. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can we get this perfect knowledge and how can we practice it if we're like prisoners? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You have to go to the perfect person. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said first of all that he asked you to give evidence, but that you did not. You said that you'd have evidence, but you did not give it. Prabhupāda: Here is evidence. I have said that Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor lives within the body. Now you just try to understand and you will find that yes, this body is not the... This is a property. The proprietor is within. That is perfect knowledge. Just like a big mill going on. But if somebody does not find out the proprietor, then does it mean that there is no proprietor? Professor: I am the owner of my own self. Prabhupāda: You are the not owner, but you are occupier. Professor: Occupier. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a house. There are two persons, one is the tenant and the other is the landlord. The proprietor is the landlord, and the tenant is occupier. Actually that is self*-realization, that I must know that "I am occupier of this body but I am not proprietor." The proprietor is God. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that all religions agree that man can be perfected although he may not be perfect now... Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of religion. We are talking of philosophy and science. When we talk about these things that the occupier of the body is within the body, it is neither any Christian knowledge nor Hindu knowledge nor... It is fact. It is a science. The science cannot be "I believe or you believe or you..." That is not science. Science is science. I have already said. Two plus two equal to four is equally applicable everywhere. Similarly, this is knowledge, that the proprietor, or the occupier of the body, is within the body. You can study from any angle of vision. The fact is there. Professor: Is it transcendent? Prabhupāda: Yes, that occupier or... Professor: I don't care who is the owner of my body. I know that it is not going to be eternally mine because this body is going to corrupt, is going to die, and we will have to bury it so that everybody will be happy. But I don't care about that because I... Prabhupāda: That is animal. That is animal. That is animal conception. That is animal conception, that a dog doesn't care. Similarly, if you don't care, then you are no better than the dog. Professor: I would not agree with that. Prabhupāda: Why not? Because your conception, the dog conception, the same. Professor: Well, you were saying beforehand... Prabhupāda: No, no, the dog doesn't care whether he is the proprietor of the body or not. So if I don't care, then what is the difference between dog and me? Professor: The difference between dog and men is a very slight one, that men can think, that men can reason. Prabhupāda: So, you say slight; we say nothing. Unless one has got this transcendental knowledge, he is no better than the dog. Professor: Dogs have knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes, for eating, sleeping and sex life and defense, everyone has got knowledge. Dog has knowledge. You have got knowledge. But what is the distinction between you and dog? In your life, you can realize the transcendence. The dog cannot. That makes you distinct from... Professor: Now, how can you be so sure of that? Have you ever been in a dog's mind? How can... As you have already said... Prabhupāda: There is no need... There is no need because dog is busy for his bodily requisition. And if you are simply busy for your bodily requisition, then what is the difference between you and dog? We have to take the principle. Professor: Why is that difference so important for you? Prabhupāda: No, no, fundamentally what is the difference? The dog is whole day busy to find out his food, and if you are also busy to find out your food, then where is the difference? Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying, "Because I am not this body, therefore it doesn't matter if I'm the owner of this body or not." *Prabhupāda: No, then you have to... As soon as you decide that you are not this body, you are transcendental to this body, then you have to understand what is the transcendental nature and what is your business, what you should do. These things will come. At the present moment, because I identify me with this body, I am simply busy with this bodily concept of life. So as soon as you understand that "I am not this body," that is called brahma*-bhūtaḥ stage, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am Brahman." That is the beginning of real knowledge. Professor: (Spanish) That's the reason because I don't care what happens to this body, not because there is a difference between dog and man or anything. Prabhupāda: No, even if you care, who cares for you? It will go by nature's way. Professor: Right. Prabhupāda: That we say. That we say. Now I have got this now nice body, and nature may offer something not very desirable body. Then what you will do? Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said it doesn't matter to him if he gets this body or that body, even a dog's body, because he will go on being himself. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. It doesn't matter him, but there are persons*-he will shudder if he is said that "Next body you are going to become a dog." (laughter) Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Where is the beginning of evolution, is that what he's saying? Where does evolution begin? Devotee: What is the principle of evolution? Hṛdayānanda: How can it be that we're advancing if we can become a dog in the next life, is that it, or something inferior? Where is the question of progress? *Prabhupāda: What is that? No, by nature's way there is evolution, from dog to fox, fox to this, that, that. That is... There is a law. But again one can fall down. In this way one comes to the human form of body. That is the chance of self-realization. But if in the human form of life, he does not behave like a human being*-he behaves like cats and dogs-then he gets again cats and dogs. So if by his work, he gets degradation to get the body like a dog, then again it will take millions of years to come to the human form of life. Therefore intelligent man should be very careful. He should not say, "I don't care." That is very risky life. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks that not everyone's looking for God, but people should be asked whether they want to be something different than what they are, and he thinks we need something practical, not simply something of faith. *Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that every practical things are there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You ask any question and the solution is there. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): They say that they say the same thing of the Bible. Prabhupāda: Yes. You follow Bible. That is also nice. But you do not follow. That is the difficulty. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that in this world we're all so limited, and we're like prisoners, and the more laws that we submit to, the more we become slaves. Prabhupāda: No, no more law. You simply follow the law given in the Bible, as you are speaking of Bible. The Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are violating? [break] ...if you don't follow, then you are not spiritualist; you are fool. You remain again in this, then ignorance. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said, "In others words, is all humanity a fool then?" Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Otherwise why there is Bible? Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said that it's impossible for, to follow... that you said we have to approach a perfect person, but that means we have to accept so many restrictions and this is actually impossible. It cannot be done. Prabhupāda: Then it is impossible for you to become a perfect man. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Why should the knowledge be so limited? Prabhupāda: No, it is not limited; it is unlimited. But to come to the unlimited, you have to cut down your limited knowledge. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said he noticed that there are only men here. Does that mean that women cannot become transcendental? *Prabhupāda: Why not? There are so many women. Knowledge is not restricted to men. It is open for everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can one cut down his limited knowledge if he's habituated to material life? Prabhupāda: Well, habit can be changed. Just like nobody is habituated smoking from the very beginning of his life, but by association he learns smoking. And again, by association he can give it up. These boys, American, European boys, they were habituated so many bad things. Now they have given up. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can we know what is good and what is bad? How can we define them? Prabhupāda: When you come to the good, you will understand what is good. When you come to the bad, you understand what is bad. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He does not understand. Prabhupāda: Suppose now there are a class of thief and class of honest men. So if you associate with the thieves, you will learn how to steal. But you understand also that "People hate us." The thieves, the thief class, they know that the people hate, the police arrest, the police put them... They also know that. But because they are habituated, they cannot give it up. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying stealing is relative. Some people steal because they watch television, some people steal because they're hungry or they need things... *Prabhupāda: Well, in the eyes of the law, when you go to the court, if somebody has stolen some diamond and if somebody has stolen some insignificant thing, in the court the six month prison is there. The man who has stolen an insignificant thing, the judge does not make any concession for him. "You have stolen, you must go to the jail." And the man who has stolen the diamond, he also takes the same term. So stealing is stealing. Either you steal diamond or a little fruit, it doesn't matter. The punishment is the same for the diamond*-stealer and anything-insignificant-stealer. That is the law. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He still does not understand how we can say that one activity is bad or good. For example, he said that we gave the example of thieves, but that implies that previously there was already a standard that "This is good, and this is bad." But he wants to know how he can know definitely what is good and what is bad. Prabhupāda: To become God conscious is good, and anything else, all bad. God is good. Therefore, if you are God conscious, you are good, and if you are not God conscious, then you are bad. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): If God created man? Prabhupāda: Yes. God created everything. God created man, God created dog, God created demigods, God created everything. Professor: He made us imperfect. Prabhupāda: No, He is not imperfect. Professor: No, God made us imperfect. Prabhupāda: No, you have got that... Just like you have stolen, and you have gone to the prison house. That means judge is not imperfect; you are imperfect. Professor: If God has not created us imperfect? Prabhupāda: No, God has created perfect, but you have become imperfect by misusing your independence. God is fully independent. You are part and parcel of God. Therefore you have got that quality, independence. When you misuse that, you become bad; when you use it properly, you remain good. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Yes. How do we make ourselves bad? Prabhupāda: Therefore the Bible is there: "You become good like this." If you don't do, then you become bad. The Bible says that "Thou shall not kill." If you don't kill, then you are good. If you kill, you are bad. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said there is no guarantee of perfect knowledge because at one time we had perfect knowledge, but as you said, we threw it away. So therefore... Prabhupāda: No, no, you misused the perfect knowledge. Just like here is perfect knowledge: Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." You are misusing, you are killing. That is your fault. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He wants to know if we are born good and then we learn the bad thing? *Prabhupāda: No, so long we have got this material body-you are born good or bad, but when you do not get this material body-you remain in your spiritual body*-that is good. Just like... Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said, "So no one can be born bad, but by contact with humanity he becomes bad." Prabhupāda: Then make the humanity good. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said that if he sees that he is not harming anyone, then he is always right, if he is not harming anyone. Prabhupāda: That he thinks. But the authority thinks otherwise. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says he doesn't know. Prabhupāda: Then that is his mistake. Just like a man does not know what is law, but that is no excuse. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that he can accept that man is born perfect, but that his development is imperfect, but he cannot accept that man is born imperfect. Prabhupāda: No, that we don't say. Therefore man is advised to associate with perfect so that he can keep his perfectness. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says, "The problem is there are so many millions of people, but there are so few perfect persons." Prabhupāda: One perfect person is sufficient to teach thousands of imperfect persons. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says he thinks you are right because the example is Buddha and Christ, and so many people follow them. Prabhupāda: They are perfect, but the followers do not follow the instructions. That does not mean they are imperfect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that it is not enough, contact with a perfect being, because, as you said, so many people come into contact but change teachings. Therefore it's necessary also to realize the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to keep the original teaching in perfect order, without any interpretation. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He thanks you very much for explaining so many things. Prabhupāda: So our request is to study this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and try to help it. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): You have given the example that one has to give up certain habits such as one should not smoke and things, but is it true that that is not the ultimate goal of transcendence? Prabhupāda: No, that is a process. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Can someone outside, who does not follow these practices, can he achieve perfection? Prabhupāda: Maybe, but that is exceptional. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said that Buddha achieved perfection outside of joining any particular religion, and that after reading so many things and hearing all different philosophies that it was actually the practice. Prabhupāda: He changed himself religion. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that... It's some story that when Buddha was about to leave his body, he said that... Anyway, the conclusion of the story is that he also considered himself imperfect. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the greatness of Buddha. Because his followers were imperfect, he could not say more than what they could understand. Therefore he said that "I am imperfect." His mission was to stop animal killing. But people are very much accustomed to animal killing, so he did not say higher things that they could not understand. For them, if they could stop animal killing, that was perfection. For primary student, if he understands the mathematics, two plus two equal to four, that is his perfection. That does not mean there is no higher mathematics. Give them prasāda. Wait, wait. Bring it. Wait, wait little minute. [break] ...otherwise one cannot understand spiritual matter. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says, "That's another one of my problems." Prabhupāda: It is not problem; it is practice. If you come here daily, within a week you will learn. Professor: Every night? Prabhupāda: Yes. We can give you hundreds of preparations, vegetarian. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): They asked if we're eating anything, so I said we eat before and after all of them. Prabhupāda: We shall eat also. [break] So I request you to come every Sunday and take feast with us. [break] Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He wants to know, for example, if I eat meat today, if I lose my chance for enlightenment. *Prabhupāda: No, you do not lose. You hear from the enlightened. Then you will be enlightened, and you will automatically give up meat*-eating. Therefore our business is to hear from the enlightened. That is the first business. Other things not immediately needed. Even if you cannot give up meat-eating, still, you hear from the enlightened. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He asked me how much time I've been in the movement. Prabhupāda: How much time? Hṛdayānanda: He asked me how much time... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hṛdayānanda: He wanted to know if we make the yogurt ourselves. He said we must be specialists. He said we should put it in bottles and make "Hare Kṛṣṇa yogurt." Prabhupāda: That is also good. (laughter) Because they will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and that will have effect. Hare Kṛṣṇa is transcendental vibration, so anyone who will vibrate the sound, he will get the benefit. Hṛdayānanda: He wants to know who give us our mantra, if the spiritual master gives us our mantra. Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual master. Professor: Hay una ceremonia? Prabhupāda: No, you can chant without ceremony. There is no loss. You can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and see the effect. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said he has seen us in New York and London, and one thing he has noticed that wherever he sees us, our faces are very satisfied, content. Prabhupāda: You are intelligent. (laughter) Professor (Hṛdayānanda): That even though it's outside, it shows that there's something special inside. Prabhupāda: No, this enquiry was made by one priest. I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. The priest was in his ordinary dress. He came. He said, "Swamiji, can I talk with you?" "Yes." He first of all he said, "How your disciples look so nice and full of spiritual consciousness?" That was his first question. No, everything has got process. If we adopt the process, the result is there. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How do we finance our movement? Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa's grace. It is no sends us money.(?) We are spending about ten hundred thousand dollar per month. Kṛṣṇa is providing. Professor: Ten thousand... Prabhupāda: Ten hundred thousand. Million dollar. We are getting especially by selling these books. Our book selling is increasing. We are selling fifty thousand copies at the present moment of all these books. Hṛdayānanda: Every month. Prabhupāda: Every month. In America all the universities, professors, learned scholar, they are giving us standing order, "As soon as published, please send this." Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Where in the world do we find that people most understand us and join us? Prabhupāda: America, North America. Now we have come to South America. Professor: (Spanish) I saw the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement on British television, and they had an interview with the head of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement there, and they sang and they danced and many other things there. So people are very receptive to the message of... Prabhupāda: All over the world. In Africa also. Professor: But here in Venezuela, I find that Venezuelans, or at least the government, has been a little bit too intolerant with your people here. Prabhupāda: Government is not tolerant? Hṛdayānanda: Has been a little bit too intolerant. In the past they were a little bit pushy. But now they have stopped. Prabhupāda: No, if anyone reads our books, then he will accept it. Therefore we are trying to publish all our books in different languages. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How is our movement doing in India? Prabhupāda: India, it is already there. Every person is Kṛṣṇa conscious in India. Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's asking, "Everyone in India?" Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone, by nature they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but the modern leaders, they are trying to divert their attention. The leaders are trying to make them Kṛṣṇa unconscious. (laughter) Because they are of opinion that "Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, India is so backward. So we have to become American conscious or European conscious." That is their... Professor (Hṛdayānanda): It was a great pleasure that you invited us to your... Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. So you are welcome whenever you have got time. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Morning Walk -- February 21, 1975, Caracas *Prabhupāda: University education is simply to learn some art, materialistic art. It is not education. Education is different. Education is brahma-vidyā, self-realization. Therefore in politics the so-called leader, because there is no standard, they change government, revolution. Why? From nature's study we can see one tree is producing a particular type of fruit and flower. There is no revolution. It is standard. But these people, because they have no standard, they change every moment, every year. Nature's way-the sun is rising from the eastern side*-that is standard. (chuckles) These rascals, they will say, "Let the sun rise from the north." It is childish, simply childish. "Eastern philosophers, Western..." What is this philosophy? Philosophy is philosophy. Why they talk of Eastern, Western?" Eastern sun, Western sun." Sun is always Eastern, never Western. How one can say, "Western sun?" [break] Just see. It is in the water, but the water is not over it. If the water increases, it also increases. See? There is no water on the leaf. Here you see. The water must be always down. [break] ...falling from the top of the Sumeru Hill, a big tree, and the juice, after falling down, turns into a river of mango juice. And the blackberries, they are just like the body of elephant and small seed. They also turn into river, Jambu-nada. And the both sides of the river, being moistened by the juice and dried by air and interacted by the sunshine, it becomes gold. And that gold is used for the denizens of heaven for their ornaments, helmets, bracelet, belt. Where is gold here? Paper. They cannot make even gold coins. They are reducing into poverty. In our childhood we have seen gold coin currency, silver coin. And now there is no such thing. Plastic. Paper and plastic. This is their advancement. Yes, it is a nice garden. Śrutakīrti: Yes. [break] Hṛdayānanda: Things are very rapidly reducing. Prabhupāda: Yes. There will be no rice, no wheat, no sugar, no fruits, gradually. So much sinful activities, they must be punished like that. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...a question from the lawyer? Prabhupāda: Hm, don't come near. What is that? Hṛdayānanda: He wanted to know what is the relation between the Vedic culture of India and the cultures that originally were in Latin America. There seemed to be some similarity, cultures such as the different Indian cultures. Prabhupāda: Formerly the whole world was Vedic culture. They have deteriorated, and India a simply glimpse is maintained still. And everywhere it is lost. (loud screeching noise of birds) Why they are angry? Śrutakīrti: They're in a cage. Paramahaṁsa: They're in, and we are out. Prabhupāda: Only birds? Śrutakīrti: Do they have any other animals here, prabhu? Yeah? There are others. Prabhupāda: Animals? No. Śrutakīrti: Bobcat or something? Mountain lion? *Hṛdayānanda: He asked a question about... In Latin America there's much belief or superstition in this so*-called lost city of Atlantis. It's very famous all around the western world that there was a lost civilization called Atlantis. It fell down into the ocean. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Hṛdayānanda: You said that by committing sinful activities one has to be punished by the laws of nature. So if one is repentant is he still punished? Prabhupāda: Yes, provided he is actually repentant. Hṛdayānanda: Then he is not punished? *Prabhupāda: Punished, but short cut. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti*-bhājām [Bs. 5.54]. That is for the devotees, not for the nondevotee. Nondevotee must be punished. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...ask a lot that if there could be a Kṛṣṇa conscious society, would this mean to stop the industry and technology? Prabhupāda: Industry, technology you can continue, but practically it has no use. [break] Just like there is the bench, you can sit down on the ground, and to sit down little comfortably you manufacture the bench. So for sitting down, you can utilize the ground, but you are unnecessarily wasting your time and manufacturing... This is industry. [break] ...philosophy is that we have to save time for becoming fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our necessity. And if we divert our energy for sitting down comfortably, then time is wasted. That... There is natural mattress, and there is a natural pillow, so why should you manufacture pillow and mattress? This is Sukadeva Gosvāmī. And there is natural food, fruits. So... And if you want still nice home, go to the cave. It is already made. Why should you waste your time? This is the Bhāgavata philosophy. But they are wasting time simply how to live in nice apartment, how to manufacture nice mattress, pillow. This is... So the whole philosophy is: save your time and make your life perfect within this short duration of life which you have obtained in this human form of life. Durlabhaṁ manusaṁ janma. It is very rarely you have got. Utilize it. And if you don't utilize, if you waste your time in these bodily comforts and next life you become a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? They do not understand this. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...sometimes they raise... Just like you pointed out in the preface of the *Bhāgavatam* that we're no longer in the Dark Ages in the sense that previously there was no communication due to the geographical boundaries and that even though other forms of technology may be useless, at least it's very beneficial to have different forms of communication such as telephone, telegraph, things like this, television. This is actually necessary. Prabhupāda: But that you can utilize for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for sense gratification. That is the defect. They are simply wasting time in sense gratification. If the telephone and the telegraph, television is used for propagating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is all right. But they are not doing that. We are utilizing the modern press facilities for printing Vedic scriptures. But they are utilizing the press for sex literature, Freud's philosophy. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...policy towards the problem of overpopulation and food shortage in the world now when the world leaders are not willing to do anything? What is our policy towards these problems? Prabhupāda: Produce food. But you are producing bolts and nuts. You eat them. Motor tire, you are producing motor tire, bolts and nuts. You eat it. (Hṛdayānanda translates into Spanish) (laughter) The energy is spoiled, creating problem. Everyone is engaged in manufacturing motor parts. Guest: (Hṛdayānanda translates) He's saying that he himself is involved with political leaders, and he said he's found that they're completely unwilling. They don't want to hear anything about the solution, and they're completely stuck to their own way. So what can ISKCON do... Prabhupāda: They will suffer, that's all. Hṛdayānanda: He said is there anything we can do in the political field to try to... Prabhupāda: If they will not take, they don't want to hear, then they must suffer. Hṛdayānanda: He's saying all the human race is suffering due to the bad points of the leaders. Prabhupāda: Yes, because the rascal leaders. Hṛdayānanda: So there's nothing that we should do? [break] This food relief program that you started in India could also be used in other countries where there are also economic problems. Prabhupāda: Why not? But prasādam, not ordinary food. From all our centers you can distribute food, prasādam, because that prasādam means they will gradually become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise if you give them ordinary food, they will get strength, and they will increase their sex desire, that's all, problems. [break] Hṛdayānanda: ...the movement who previously had been expert in mathematics, how could he use that for Kṛṣṇa's service if he's expert in mathematics? Prabhupāda: Mathematics? So you can calculate, "After so many years the whole universe will be destroyed." (laughter) Not of the universe but everyone's life. This body will be destroyed. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. And again you get another body. It will stay for so many years. Again you annihilate. Again you get. In this way eternal time is being wasted. Hṛdayānanda: In the modern world the engineers are designing everything. So how can an engineer use his talent for Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Design a temple, nice temple. There are wonderful temples, very expert engineering. And they were ordinary men but the engineer was so nice that nobody can manufacture such temple in the whole world, still. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, that was really wonderful, what you explained, that previously the people would build a very wonderful temple, and the ordinary people would just live in a very common, simple house. Prabhupāda: Not for themselves. They knew the art how to manufacture nice building, but they did not care for personal use. It was used for Kṛṣṇa. Sometimes only the kings, in order to keep their position, they used to have gorgeous building. Otherwise ordinary men, cottage. [break] To live in cottage means to save time. Mexican devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one of the magazines I read that there was a saint who he didn't even construct a rug? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Romaharṣaṇa. [break] Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ, yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. If there is timely cloud and rainfall, this ground can be moistened very easily. But they won't perform yajña; therefore there is scarcity of cloud and rain. Now they have to manufacture this sprinkler. And it is not perfect. [break] *Hṛdayānanda: Another question, Prabhupāda. He said that you have stated that Kali*-yuga will last for around 400,000 more years and then it will be finished and that the culture will gradually degrade, people will become very short and so on and so forth. So he's wondering if there will be geographical changes in the world or if the culture as we know it now will simply disappear and how the people will be... More or less, he's wondering what will become of the earth. Prabhupāda: Because they will not get sufficient food, shelter, bodily necessities. Just like it is already declining, already declining. Just formerly in our childhood we saw the Western people very tall. Now they are not tall. They are decreasing already. [break] In the Western countries, still there are some but in other countries they are very lean, thin and drawn. Stature of the body will decrease. Memory will decrease. It is already taking place. So in this way, you just imagine, in 400,000 years after, what will be the condition. You take mathematical calculation. (laughter) [break] Hṛdayānanda: He's asking again about geographically, what will it be like as far as temperatures and the different continents. That's what he's interested in. Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually everything will be barren. At the end of annihilation everything will be barren and by scorching the sunlight will be twelve times higher. So everything will be barren and burned into ashes. Devotee: Hiraṇyākṣa was taking the gold from the earth. Now they are taking the oil. So the weight, the oil makes weight in some parts of the globe, no? So when they take it and they put it some place else or they convert it in the earth, the earth is losing weights in some parts. That is no going to cause... Prabhupāda: I think I have explained this. Instead of contemplating what will happen to this world, you have got a short duration of life, say fifty, sixty years. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. Don't consider what will happen to this world. The nature will take care of it. You don't puzzle your brain with these thoughts. You utilize whatever time you have got in your possession and go back to home, back to Godhead. [break] You cannot check it. Best thing is that you mold your life and go back to home, back to Godhead. "Oil in your own machine." Instead of thinking what will happen... They will happen. Because people will go on with their rascal civilization, natural consequences will be there. You better take advantage of whatever time you have got and become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious and go back to home. [break] ...and we are thinking, "You are crazy. You are losing the opportunity of life." Therefore I wrote that "Who is Crazy?" They have got this opportunity, human form of life, to make a solution of all problems, but they do not care for it. They are simply allured, the temporary happiness of this body, and the body will finish within some years. That they do not take care. They think it is all in all, body. Hṛdayānanda: So that's animal life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal civilization. The animal is running without motor car. We are running on motor car. That is the difference. [break] ...smallpox. One who does not know the science, he will say accidental. It is not accidental. You contaminated the disease somewhere, and now it is visible, manifest. There is nothing like accident. Otherwise why it is Brahma*-saṁhitā says, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [Bs. 5.1]. Kāraṇa means cause. Everything has got cause. The ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa. [break] The cause is petrol, oil, but what is the cause of this petrol, they do not know. Hṛdayānanda: That would be real science to know the cause of the petrol. Prabhupāda: Yes. How petrol is produced in so large quantity? Who has made this arrangement? How it is producing? They are not interested. Hṛdayānanda: So as you were saying then, just to manipulate the petrol in different ways, that's like the art, as you've been saying. Prabhupāda: That's all. You cannot produce petrol. Just like gold is already there, manufactured by God. You can make only different types of ornaments, that's all. Everything. This metal covering of this body, you have not produced this metal. They are like the carpenter. The carpenter has not produced the wood nor the metal instrument nor himself, but he is working. This body is also not produced by him. That is also made by Kṛṣṇa. His intelligence is also made by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving the body. Kṛṣṇa is giving the intelligence. Kṛṣṇa is giving the wood. Kṛṣṇa is giving the instrument. Now, if you produce some furniture, to whom it will belong? To the carpenter or to the supplier of everything? Who will enjoy it? Who will enjoy it? If the carpenter claims that "I have done it," that is foolishness. You have done it as a worker, and you have been supplied with everything, your intelligence, your food, your instrument, your ingredient. Therefore the supplier should be the proprietor, not the carpenter. That is real philosophy. Hṛdayānanda: That's practically the law everywhere. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Hṛdayānanda: Carpenter comes and he pays him. *Prabhupāda: And he is given payment. He is given food, shelter, everything, to work for Kṛṣṇa. Now Kṛṣṇa, bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasām [Bg. 5.29]. Whatever activities are going on there, the enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa, nobody else. Hṛdayānanda: So that's like a new light that you have given. I noticed in your lectures that you were always saying that these things were art. It took a while for me to understand it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nothing belongs to you. Why should you claim it is yours? They are claiming North America "ours," South America "ours." So how it became yours? It was already there, and you came as a immigrant, and it becomes yours? [break] Karmīs, they are claiming, "It is our property." And the jñānīs, they are living that "This is mithyā," and give it up. Both of them in the wrong. It is created by somebody, how you can say mithyā, false? Māyāvādī says, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The whole cosmic manifestation is false." How it is false? And karmīs, they are claiming unnecessarily, "It is mine." Creator is different person, and he is claiming, "mine". That is also false. Hṛdayānanda: So they are both envious of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: They do not know Kṛṣṇa. Foolish. (end) Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas *Hṛdayānanda: ...Universal Brotherhood, which is a yoga group around Latin America and they say they are trying to re*-educate people and help bring understanding between different cultures. He's originally Mexican. Prabhupāda: What is the name? Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) Guest: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: Jose Marciel. Prabhupāda: No, what is the name of the group? Hṛdayānanda: The Great Yoga Fraternity, or The Great Universal Brotherhood. Prabhupāda: So what is the purpose of this yoga? Hṛdayānanda: They want to make a synthesis of all the best practices of different cultures to present it to the people so they can have understanding without prejudice. Prabhupāda: No, prejudice is different thing, but what is the science? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said the basis of the movement is to get knowledge through the use of their faculties in order to raise the consciousness. Prabhupāda: To which platform the consciousness? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said that they do not feel that they can go very high. They feel that they are in the hands of the great spiritual masters such as yourself and others also. Prabhupāda: So do they aim to go to the highest point? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): They feel the highest point is to understand themselves and... Prabhupāda: So has he understood himself? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said that to a certain extent he feels he has achieved this, but that the reality is unlimited, it cannot be described and that it's more a certain consciousness or appreciation of life that is beyond words. Prabhupāda: Not clear understanding. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said that they try to have a clear understanding, but he must confess that he is limited. Prabhupāda: He is limited. Then what is unlimited? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He says that the unlimited is that which always was, is and always will be, and the limited is that which is in this material phenomenal world. Prabhupāda: That means that limited is material, he says? And unlimited is spiritual? Guest: i, pero... (Spanish) Prabhupāda: So what is the conception of the spiritual? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): That which is, has been and will be and which is not limited to form. Prabhupāda: Yes. Limited to form. Then how he is unlimited? Guest: (Spanish) Hṛdayānanda: There are some other guests here, so I'm going to have to arrange things at this moment to bring the other guests in. Some of the devotees have to go in the other big room. There's room. Śrutakīrti: OK, well, there's ten guests. Prabhupāda: You can move that. So only three of them can remain. You three or four can remain. Others... Śrutakīrti: There's ten people from the Metaphysical Society that have come to see you. Hṛdayānanda: So Jagajīvana, Viraha, Mahāvir, Mahāviṣṇu, Pramāṇa... Prabhupāda: Or if that hall is...? [break] Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) Prabhupāda: Now let us distinguish what is limited or what is unlimited. I am asking these gentlemen. Guest: (Spanish) *Prabhupāda: (aside:) Keep Bhagavad*-gītā in hand, yes. That's it. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): So he is saying that this material world is a combination of so many different elements, intelligence, so on and so forth. And in the center of all of this, the essence is that which is eternal. And this eternal thing cannot have any name because then it would be limited, and that would be a contradiction. And also it has no form. Prabhupāda: No, that eternity, that is nice, that the material world is temporary, and the eternity is spiritual. That is clear understanding. Material elements, just like earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, ego, intelligence, and the spiritual element is which is utilizing these material elements. Do you admit this? Guest: Si. Prabhupāda: The others? That is the distinction between matter and spirit. Just like this microphone, it is combination of earth, water, air, fire, like that. But the living being, he has utilized, he has combined this matter into this microphone. Is that admitted? Now, exactly like the microphone, the combination of matter and done by some living entity, similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is combination of matter, and there is one living being or the Supreme Being who has combined them, and it is working. Is that admitted? So that is the difference between limited and unlimited, that I, you are living being... We can also create something like this microphone or this big aeroplane. We have created. That is limited. But there is another one who has created innumerable planets and that is floating in the air. Is it not? We are taking credit of becoming big scientist by creating one airship, 747, five hundred passengers carrying. How many we have created? Maybe hundred, two hundred. But there are millions and trillions of planets floating in the same way in the air, and those planets containing so many big, big mountains, ocean, and they are floating in the air. We can create limited things, but He can create unlimited things. Therefore we have got our limited brain, and He has got unlimited brain. Is that correct? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): That suggests that He has a brain. Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. So as soon as He has got a brain, He is a person. Therefore God is person ultimately. Just like the government. Government is imperson, but the president is person. Similarly, the cosmic manifestation, the energy working, they are all imperson, but the brain behind this is person. That is the distinction between person and imperson. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): You said that it is person ultimately. What does that mean ultimately? *Prabhupāda: Ultimately, just like the government is imperson, but ultimately the president is person. The government is going on under the order of the president. Therefore impersonal government is not so important as the personal president is important. Another example: just like the sun, and the sunshine, and the sun*-god, three things. The sunshine is impersonal, and the sun globe is localized, and within the sun globe there is sun-god. So in one sense they are all one, means heat and light, but the sunshine is different from the sun globe. When... Just like here is sunshine in this room, but that is not sun globe. Therefore, simultaneously, they are one and different. Is it clear? Any question about this? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He says that if God is a person, how can we understand, as there's a common saying that God is and also is not? Prabhupāda: God is person. That I have already explained, that the government is impersonal, the president is person, but the president is more important than the whole government. Just like a man in the court of the government is condemned to die. So there is no law in the government which can save him. But if the president shows him mercy, he can save him. Therefore, the president is more powerful than all the laws in the government. Therefore he is important. What does he say? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said there are many examples where the laws of the government are superior to the president. For example, in America where Nixon was pulled down by the laws. *Prabhupāda: But one law... When he was president, he was powerful than the government. When he resigned from the presidency, then he became less important. This is a crude example. The another example is that the sunshine is universally spread, and the sun globe is situated in one place. So which is important, the sun globe or the sunshine? And just like this light is situated in one place and the illumination is spread. So what is important, the illumination or the lamp? The fire is one place, and the fire light and heat is expanded, so the fire is localized, and the light and heat is expanded many miles. So which is important, the fire or the heat and light? Therefore, God is person, but He is not a person like you and me. But His personality is expanded just like the heat and light of the fire is expanded. Similarly, whatever we see, that is the expansion of God's energy. Just like there are many big businessman. The man is person, but he is conducting hundreds of factories, big, big area. The factories are important or the man is important? If an ordinary person in this material world becomes so important and personal, you can just imagine how the person of God is important in spite of unlimited expansion of this material world. So what is his idea? The person is ultimately important. The impersonal feature is there, just like the impersonal feature, sunshine, but the sun globe, and within the sun globe there is sun-god. The sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun globe and within the sun globe there is sun-god. So which is important, the sun globe, the sun*-god or the sunshine? Which is important? The sunshine is important? Guest: All of them. *Prabhupāda: All of them. That's all right, but comparatively, the sun-god is the source of everything. Therefore he is important. Therefore God is expanded by His energy. And God is the energetic. But comparatively, although there is no difference between the energy and the energetic, the energetic is more important than the energy. When there is sunshine, it is to be understood that sun globe is there and the sun-god is there. But in this sense the sun-god, the sun globe and the sunshine, they are not different, one, because every one of them has the same quality, heat and light. But still, here is the sunshine. It does not mean the sun*-god or the sun globe is here. The sun globe is 93,000,000 miles away from us. So therefore, it is to be understood, they are simultaneously one and different. This is the philosophy. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said that you have said that God expands, but this implies that God modifies Himself or changes. Prabhupāda: No. That is God. He can expand unlimitedly; still, He remains as He is. That is, means, unlimited. Just like if you have got hundred dollars in your pocket, then if it is spent, one dollar, one dollar, one dollar, then ultimately you become zero. But about God it is said, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam eva avaśiṣyate [Iso Invocation]. That means you take hundred dollars. Still, the hundred dollar is there. Similarly, God as He is, He can expand Himself in millions and millions separately; still, He is the same million. That is called God. If we take God in our conception, that "I have got hundred dollars. I spend hundred dollars. It is zero," but God is not like that. God can expand Himself as God unlimitedly; still, He remains the same. There is another nice example. Just like you take one candle and you lit up another candle, you lit up another candle, another candle and millions of candle, but this candle remains the same powerful, and all the candles lit up, they are also same power. But for our understanding, we take the original candle as first candle, the next as second candle, the third, fourth, fifth, millions. But each candle is equally powerful, and the original candle is still there. So by this expansion, God does not diminishes. That is the meaning of God, and that is the meaning of unlimited. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): How can we understand the difference between personality and individuality? And if God expands Himself in everything, then He must be inside all of His creation. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difference, that God is situated in everywhere, but you are not situated everywhere. You are situated within your body. I am situated within my body. The pains and pleasure of my body, you cannot feel; *neither I can feel the pains and pleasure... But God is everywhere. Therefore He can understand what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure, his pains and pleasure. That is unlimited. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Find out, what is that verse? Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Kṣetra-jñam cāpi māṁ viddhi. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: Read the purport. [break] Alma and Superalma. (laughter) God is Superalma. (laughter) Guest (Hṛdayānanda): You have mentioned pain within the body. What is the origin of pain and the origin of imperfection? *Prabhupāda: Origin of pain means as soon as you come to the material world, is the origin of pain. Just like the... It can be appreciated very nicely. Just like water. Water is sometimes painful, and sometimes pleasing. Is it not? Do you agree or not? No, I just try to... Water is the same thing, but sometimes it is painful and sometimes it is pleasing, is it not? So how the same thing becomes pleasing and painful? This is circumstantial. The same thing is pleasing and the same thing is painful under different circumstances. Similarly, fire. Fire is sometimes pleasing and sometimes painful. The fire is the same, but circumstantially, it becomes painful and pleasing. Just like in winter season the fire is pleasing. And in summer season the same fire is painful. Now, these feelings of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore the material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you do not get this material body*-you remain in your spiritual body-then there is no more pains and pleasure. So that means the origin of pains and pleasure is to our attachment to this material body. If we can somehow or other get out of this material body, then there is no more pains and pleasure or it is simply pleasure. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, ānandamāyaḥ abhyāsāt. "By nature the spirit soul is joyful." In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: [Bg. 18.54] "As soon as you become spiritually self-realized, then there is no more pains and pleasure." So pleasure means absence of pain. So in your spiritual identity there is no pain, therefore it is simply pleasure. Therefore our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body. Spiritual body is there already. It is covered by the material body, but some way or other, if we stop the covering of the material body, then we are simply in pleasure. Therefore our only attempt in this human body should be how to revive our spiritual body. And that process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Open that verse, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: So if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you revive your spiritual body. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): How or why did this spiritual body become covered by the material body? Prabhupāda: How your body is covered in a different dress when you go to the prison house? When one goes to the prison, he has to keep his dress separately and take the prison dress. So anyone who comes into this material world, he has to take a material body. This is the law. Unless you have got this material body, how you can feel pleasure in material sense enjoyment? Just like on a stage, if you are going to play, you have to take dress according to the play. Therefore this material body is compared with the dress. That is stated. Find out, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya. Hṛdayānanda: *Prabhupāda: Just like we are sitting, ladies and gentlemen here. So every one of us, we have got different dress. The dress is superficial, but as ladies and gentlemen, human being, we are one. Similarly, each one of us can have a different dress. So these living entities, they are in different dresses only, and the dresses are calculated-8,400,000 different forms. In the water there are 900,000 different dresses. Similarly, the trees and plants, the two million different types of vegetables. Jalaja*-nava-lakṣāni sthavara-lakṣa-viṁśati. There are insects. There are 1,100,000 species. Similarly birds, there are one million. And Pakṣiṇāṁ daśalakṣanam. Daśa-lakṣa means one million, one million types of bird. And three million types of beasts. And 400,000 forms of human being. In this way the living entity is passing through different dresses. And the best dress is this human form because in this dress you can understand what is God, what you are, what is your relation with God, and then you can act and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore if this dress, in this dress... I am living being; you are living being. So we are in this human form of dress. We have got developed consciousness. If we miss the opportunity to understand God, then again we are put into the cycle of this evolutionary process. We should not therefore misuse this form like other forms. We should utilize it properly to understand the unlimited God and our relationship with God and act accordingly. That is perfection of life. Guest (Lady) (Hṛdayānanda): How can we relieve ourselves of material pain and live in spiritual pleasure? Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you do not accept this material body, you have no connection with material pains and pleasure. (aside:) Get this light down. *Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He has understood from Bhagavad*-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says that "As you approach Me, I present Myself." So in that sense can this movement be compared to also the consciousness of Christ, Christ consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no difference between consciousness of Christ or Kṛṣṇa provided we follows them. Christ is speaking as son of Godhead, and Kṛṣṇa is speaking as God, so there is no difference. The truth-the father speaks or the son speaks*-the truth is the same. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He understands that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest state of the mind. Now he requests that you explain to the people how one can achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness living in one's own home with one's... In other words for those who are outside the temple, they have their jobs and they live in their houses, how can they achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: It is very easy. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Lady (Hṛdayānanda): How do we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: That you are seeing. I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma... They all are chanting. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): What is the meaning of this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hare means, "O the energy of God," and Kṛṣṇa, "O God, kindly accept me again. I am fallen in this material world." That's all. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She says that she sees it as a mantra, and from her point of view it seems like we're repeating this mantra over and over again, and it's something like hypnotism. For example, in some tribes there are different rituals. They are chanting different things, and she would like... Prabhupāda: That is her opinion. She is not authority. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She would like an explanation. *Prabhupāda: This is the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Find it out. Hṛdayānanda: Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She wants to know if it's the same thing to chant oṁ or to chant "I am, I am." Prabhupāda: "I am"? Where is that stated, "I am"? Where is the authority of "I am"? Lady: (Spanish) Ke es, "Yo soy. Yo soy. Yo soy Dios." (Spanish) Prabhupāda: He says directly, He says directly, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Kṛṣṇa says, "You always chant My name." So why should we go to other things? God says that "You chant My name," so why should we go to other thing? Lady (Hṛdayānanda): He says in this western hemisphere the supreme authority is the Saint Germaine, and he says that we should chant "I am." That's a quote from the Bible meaning... Apparently when they asked God, "Who are You?" and God said, "I am that I am." Prabhupāda: What you are? Guest: (Spanish) "I am" es el nombre de Dios... Prabhupāda: But what you are? "I am," you are thinking, but what you are? Do you know what you are? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): I think they mean that it's a quotation from God. Prabhupāda: No, no. There must be your sense also. You are saying, "I am," but if I ask you, "What you are...?" Guest (Hṛdayānanda): I am that I am. Prabhupāda: But you do not know what you are. Then you are a nonsense. You say, "I am," but if I ask, "What you are?" you cannot reply. Then you are a nonsense. You must explain what you are. Then "I am." Lady: Every time that we say, "I am..." Prabhupāda: But you must explain what you are. Lady: Yes, sir. Prabhupāda: What is that? Lady: Every time that we say, "I am," we must be conscious of what we are saying that we are, and it must... Prabhupāda: That I am asking you, that what you are? Guest: Why don't we look at it this other way? You say the name of God is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No, that is already separate, now another question. She says, "I am." But I am asking-I am also "I am,"*-I am asking you, "What you are?" Guest: May I explain? She says that God says that His name is I am, as a name. Prabhupāda: What is that? Hṛdayānanda: He said that "I am" is a name of God. Prabhupāda: God never says like that. Where it is? They must quote some authority. Where it is? Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said in the Bible, when some people were leaving and they said, "Who is sending them?" God said, "Tell them that it is the God of your fathers and that I am." Prabhupāda: In the Bible it is said? Where it is? Guest: Exodus, Moses, in Mount Sinai? Prabhupāda: Anyone knows Bible it is said? Śrutakīrti: It's in there, yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Śrutakīrti: God says, "I am who am." *Prabhupāda: No, God said, "I am," you say, "I am"-that is all right. But God says "I am,"*-we can understand God. "I am" means God. But what you are? Guest: Well, He said, "This is My name, and this is My name forever." Prabhupāda: He says like that? Śrutakīrti: That's the way it's translated, "I am who am." Prabhupāda: So nobody knows Bible here? I am not very much conversant with Bible. But so far I know that Christ says that "I am the son of God." We can understand. So is there any difference? God says or Christ says that "I am the son of God." So the father is different. The father can say "I am," and the son also can say, "I am," but everyone is "I." But what is the relation between this "I" and that "I." That is wanted to know. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): I am a particle of God. Prabhupāda: That is this. Therefore I am particle; He is whole. Therefore difference. When God says, "I am," and I say, "I am," there is difference. I am particle "I am," and He is whole "I am." (laughter) Another, a millionaire says, "I am," and his servant says, "I am," but both the "I's" are same? So God is great. He says, "I am." He is great "I am." And I say, "I am." I am small "I am." Therefore this "I am" and that "I am" is different. This "I am," when I say, "I am," and God says, "I am," this "I am" and this "I am" is different. So not always I am the same. So far I am concerned, my identity, your identity is concerned, that is all right, one. But you "I am" and I "I am" not, different. The soul as soul, it is all right. But as particle, as whole, they are different. Yes, that is to be understood. God says, "I am," means "I am the whole." And I say, "I am"-"I am the particle." So therefore we should understand that when I say, "I am," and God says, "I am," they are different. [break] Your consciousness, your identification, my identification, my consciousness is different. And because we are different, therefore we are considering what is the ultimate goal. So in spite of difference, you can say "I am," I can say, "I am," He can say, "I am," but that does not mean there is no difference. My "I am," I am different from you, "I am." This is to be understood. I can say, "I am," you can say, "I am," but this "I am" and that "I am" is different. *Guest: May I ask a question, please? Master, perhaps... It seems to me we have sort of misunderstood. These people is trying to inquire whether or not a sort of a mantram I would say invented here in the western hemisphere or a so*-called master is or is not good for realization of the self. But I am thinking more in terms of the question, it is perhaps more suitable to make the question a question, not affirmation. "Who am I?" perhaps, is the best of the mantrams instead of affirming, "I am," because we cannot realize who I am. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you are basing your knowledge, "Perhaps." Therefore you are imperfect. "Perhaps." That means you are imperfect. Your statement will not be accepted. Because you are imperfect, you say, "Perhaps, maybe." So this is not knowledge. This is not knowledge. This is ignorance. As soon as you say, "Perhaps, maybe," that means you do not know what is, the actual thing is. Knowledge must be perfect. There is no question of "Perhaps, it may be." No, that is not knowledge. That is speculation. That is speculation. That is not knowledge. Because you are sitting, "Perhaps," therefore your knowledge cannot be accepted. Guest: No, no, I'm just asking the question whether or not the right question could be: "Who am I?" Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. That's nice. Therefore I say when you say, "I am," and when I say, "I am," I must understand who I am, you must understand who you are. That I am saying, that simply saying "I am," is not the final. Is not the final. Everyone is "I am," but he must know what I am, what that "I am." That is knowledge. If you blindly say, "I am," and you do not know what you are, then what is the use of using "I am"? Therefore I ask, "What you are?" Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She says that everyone has to decide. Prabhupāda: Yes. That decision is required, that is knowledge. Simply saying, "I am," everyone can say, "I am." What is that? You must know what you are. That is required. Therefore I am asking, "What you are?" Lady: I agree. I am just mentioning that "I am" is the name of God, and then you add the adjective, and He will be established unto you. Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. "I am" is not the name of God. That is identification. That is the identification. God can say, "I am," you can say, "I am," but that does not mean you are God. Lady: Jesus Christ said that if you establish what you are after you say "I am"... Prabhupāda: That's all right, everyone is saying, "I am." Everyone is saying in ordinary dealing, "I am." That is there. But that does (not) mean different "I am" is the same. Lady: You decree it. You decree what you are. You decree. With "I am," you decree. You make a decree. Prabhupāda: No, no, that decree is already there. Just like in the Bible, "God is great." You are not great. Therefore you "I am" and God "I am" different. *Girl: Is it possible to sing the mahā*-mantra for someone else who has died, and will it have the same effect? Prabhupāda: If you say, "I am servant," and God says, "I am master," then it is perfect. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): You said that when I say, "I am," and when you say, "I am," they are different. But she understands that the essence of everyone is the same. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, in the essence, in the essence means the spirit; *that God is the supreme spirit, I am the particle spirit. So far spiritual constitution is concerned, God and the living entity, one. Both of them are spiritual. But the power, God's power and your power, is not the same. It is said in the Bible, so far I remember, "God said, 'Let there be creation.' There was creation." Can you do that, "Let there be creation" and create something? Therefore when God says, "I am" and you say "I am," that is different. So "I" means person. As person, He is also person. And "I" means persons. You are also person. But that person and you person is different. He is almighty, all*-powerful. You have no... You have limited power. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): This is Māyāvādī philosophy. She's saying that when she says, "I am," she doesn't mean "I" in the sense of the lower self but in the higher self. Prabhupāda: That we have admitted. God is spirit; I am spirit. So both of them "I." But God's power and your power is not equal. God said, "Let there be creation." There was creation. But you say, "Let there be capati," there will be no capati unless you work. (laughter) You have to work for it. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): God is the whole, and we are parts, and we are evolving to integrate ourselves with that whole. Prabhupāda: That is all right. But as part... Just like the finger. You can say, "part of the body," but it is not the whole body. So finger is working. Just like I am rubbing the head. The finger is... But the head is different, the finger is different, but if you take the whole thing, it is body. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said without all the parts, it would not be the body so we are all parts of the whole. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, this is axiomatic truth. Part is not equal to the whole. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): But we are in evolution. Prabhupāda: Evolution? No, there is no evolution. The part is part eternally, and the whole is whole eternally. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): So she's asking does that mean that one does not integrate himself with the whole when he becomes evolved? Prabhupāda: No, you are already in the whole. What is that? Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She says, "Therefore we're all one." Prabhupāda: One and different, that is our philosophy. Just like the one small screw is in the machine. So the whole is one, but the small screw is not equal to the whole machine. But the screw cannot be called the whole machine. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said, "We are part of this whole." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is. We also. Mamaivāṁśo jīvabhūtaḥ jīva*-loka sanātanaḥ. Find out. Hṛdayānanda: Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said they admit the same thing. They want to know if... *Prabhupāda: Same thing, but why he is manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti*-sthāni, Why he is struggling here? God doesn't struggle. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said because there was a misunderstanding. Prabhupāda: Who misunderstanding? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): So he has said that we have given the name Kṛṣṇa to God, but actually there are so many names of God, that it doesn't matter what the name of God is. It can be "I am" or it can be whatever it may be. Just like in India, he's understood that in India there are so many different names of God. *Prabhupāda: So do you think that "I am" is the name? (Guest speaks in Spanish*-gives different names of God) That's all right. Allah is name, Kṛṣṇa is name, Jehovah is name. But "I am" is not name. Guest: Si, es un nombre. Yaveḥ, Yaveḥ. Prabhupāda: If I ask you, "What is your name?" you say, "I am." Is it very clear? (Prabhupāda speaks to those near him as Hṛdayānanda discusses with man in Spanish:) Simply... "What is your name?" "I am." How foolishly they are. Hṛdayānanda: They thought we meant why are we struggling here? But I explained no... Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say, they said that "I am" is the name of God. So is it practical that if I ask your name, "What is your name?" "I am." Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said that say, for example, suppose that his parents were crazy and gave him the name "I am"... Prabhupāda: But there is no business in crazy. We have no business with crazy. (some people are laughing and some are talking) All right, what is the time now? We have no business with crazy. This is practical. This is practical. If in the court the judge inquires, "What is your name," and if you say, "I am," he will immediately say, "He is a crazy man. Get him out." (several people start talking at once) This kind of knowledge has got no value. No, no. If he does not like to accept Kṛṣṇa as the name of God, he has got his name, say, Jehovah or Allah. That is all right. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): They're saying it's not that they don't like Kṛṣṇa. They like Kṛṣṇa very much, but they are saying that everything is... Prabhupāda: No, no, they must have some name of God. "I am" is not the name. That is false conception. Guests (Hṛdayānanda): They say it's something very personal. Prabhupāda: No. When you ask name, that is personal. Lady: God? Prabhupāda: God means controller. God is not name. Just like the president, Mr. Ford. That is name, and president is the controller. So every controller has got name. So why the supreme controller will not have any name? That is ignorance. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She's saying that Christ said that "I am the way." *Prabhupāda: Well, every guru is the way to approach God. That's a fact. But he has got his name, Christ. So why do you deny this name? "Christ says,"*-that means either you take him anything, but he has a name, Christ. Lady: No. Prabhupāda: No? What is this? (laughter) That is your conception. It is not Bible's conception. Bible says the son of God is Christ. You can create by mental concoction anything, but if you refer to the Bible, the name is Christ. Everyone says, all Christians says, all Christians says, "the Jesus Christ." Why do you deny it? Lady (Hṛdayānanda): Māyāvāda. She says that everyone has the Christ within him. Prabhupāda: No, we don't agree with all these things. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): If we agree with Buddhist consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, no, whatever consciousness may be, I say that in the Bible it is said that son of God is Christ. His name is Christ. How you can deny the name? No, no, that is their interpretation, "Christ means 'I am.' " They want to interpret in their own way. There is name. How can you deny it? Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He is saying that you have said that we have a material body and also a spiritual body. So he wants to know if the spirit and matter are born simultaneously or if the matter is born, the material body is born, and later the spirit comes. Prabhupāda: No, from spirit the matter has come out. Just like God said, "Let there be creation." So God was there and creation later on. So God is spirit and creation is matter. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He has understood from what he thinks is Indian philosophy that you cannot give God a name because that would be limiting God. *Prabhupāda: No, you don't give God name. But God is named by His action. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. That is the quality of God, that He is all-attractive. Similarly, Allah. Allah means "the great." So God is great; therefore He is called Allah. So actually God has no name, but according to His action, He has name. That's all right. You can... Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He thanks you very much, and he considers it a great privilege to have been here today. Prabhupāda: Thank you for your coming here. (end) Room Conversation with Psychiatrist -- February 22, 1975, Caracas Hṛdayānanda: (Hṛdayānanda translating Spanish and English) I was explaining to him that a real spiritual master cannot lie to them and tell them they are God. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual master is the servant of God. He is not God. Although he is respected like God. Sākṣād*-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. Spiritual master is described as good as God in all scriptures. And all advanced spiritualists accept this. But he is the most confidential servant of God. Because he receives respect like God, he does not think at any time that he is God. He always thinks himself as eternal servant of God. (pause) [break] What is the difference between animal and man? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels that they are both animals. The difference is that one is rational, and the other is not. Prabhupāda: What is that rationality? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): The ability to think, the ability to encounter different situations and solve different problems, and the ability to plan for the future. And memory. Prabhupāda: So both of them are life. And what is this body? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He doesn't understand very much the meaning of the question. Prabhupāda: Just like the animal. He is busy in maintaining the body. He wants to eat, he wants to sleep, and he wants to have sex, and he wants to defend. So man is also in need of these things. The method may be different. So dog's eating and man's eating, the method may be different. That method is also different in different countries also. So because the method may be different, therefore he is distinct from animal? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying again that he thinks the difference between man and animal is that the man can postpone his desires or feelings or sublimate them. Then he also said that he did not come so much for dialogue. He wanted to hear our position, but... I don't know what he's saying. These questions and answers seem to disturb him. Prabhupāda: Eh? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He said that he came here... he wants to know, more or less, our views on psychiatry. Prabhupāda: Of course, I am not a psychiatrist, but what is the subject matter of psychiatrist? May I know? So far I know, that when a man becomes mad, he requires consultation of a psychiatrist. Is that all right? (Hṛdayānanda talks with other man in Spanish) Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He says that nowadays psychiatry is not so much concerned just with crazy people, but it's just concerned with the human problems. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very good. So what is the human problem in their understanding? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): To some extent they see that when there's something wrong with the physical body, it causes a manifestation of a mental disease. Prabhupāda: When there is something wrong in the physical body, there is mental disease. That we accept also. But that mental disease is there basically, that he is thinking that he is body. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He says that he was speaking about an organic... For example, if someone has a tumor in their brain, it causes irritability, anxiety, suffering and so many things. They are seeing more, there's some physical defect. *Prabhupāda: The physical defect... Just like a driver of the car, and when his car is damaged, the driver becomes very sorry that "My car is now broken, damaged," but is the driver the carriage? Sometimes a valuable car is damaged and the proprietor or the driver, he becomes very sorry, almost half*-dead, "Oh, my car is lost." So this is due to his too much attraction for the car. When the machine car stops (it) does not mean the driver is damaged. But he thinks, "Now, I am finished. My car is damaged." But although he is not the car, he thinks that he is damaged. So that is mental disease. He is different from the car, but he thinks that he is damaged by the damage of the car. And if he knows correctly, that "What is that? I will get another new car," what is the cause of suffering? The driver is not the car, but on account of his too much absorption, identifying the car with him, he suffers. So if the psychiatrist informs him that "Why you are sorry? You are not the car," then he is cured. So the modern civilization defect is that he is not this body, but he does not know it. Therefore, in the Vedic literature it is said, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke: [SB 10.84.13] "Anyone is identifying himself with this body which is made of material element," yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu, "and in bodily relationship he is thinking his family is protector, his nation is protector, in this way, one who lives, he is no better than the animal." Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā... You find out this verse, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: So this verse says that "You are speaking like a learned man, Arjuna," He addressed Arjuna, "but you are not very learned man because you are considering of the body." Just like the proprietor of the car, the driver. While the car is going on nicely or car is stopped, no more working, he is disinterested that he knows very well that "I am not this car." Therefore it is said, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. "Anyone who is actually learned, he does not consider very seriously about the body, either it is dead or alive." So basically we are, all, every one of us, we are spirit soul. The body is just like a machine. We have got it. But we are taking of the machine very much, not for ourself. Whole world is taking care of the body but not of the driver of the body, the spirit soul. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body, and because this body is born in America, I am American, and because the body is white, therefore I am white, or black." In this way everyone is identifying with the body. Nobody is identifying with the spirit soul. That is the basic disease of the human society. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He says that he has no objection philosophically to this position, and he understands our example very well. Prabhupāda: No, this is not... Philosophy, of course... Philosophy is the science of science. This is scientifically true that we are not this body. *Hṛdayānanda: So I'll tell you what else he said. He said that even though we may not be this body, even though we should be looking for God, still, for example, he, as a doctor, if a patient comes to him and has, for example, say, some disease, he can, within twenty*-four hours, cure the disease and stop the person's suffering. And he feels that even though he may be looking for God, that does not mean that he should let someone go on suffering if he can very easily stop it. Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not I am talking of God. I am talking of the constitutional position of the living being. That is science. So just like the same example: the driver is different from the car, but when there is some defect in the car, we are not advising that don't take care of the car. But if you simply take care of the car and don't take care of the driver, that is the basic mistake of the civilization. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying because this body can be used for intellectual advancement, therefore he's saying that sometimes people become so much concerned with intellectual things that they neglect their body. Prabhupāda: It is not... It is beyond intellectual. The intellect also belong to the body. But understanding of the soul is beyond intellectual. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He said that he has come with the idea that in order to pursue the philosophy, whatever philosophy we have, that the body must be in the best possible condition. Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that the driver is different from the car. But if you simply take care of the car, not of the driver, is that very good intelligence? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He agrees with that, that one should keep the body in the best condition in order to try to advance in life as far as possible. Prabhupāda: No, unless you take care of the driver, the car cannot run. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He also believes in the spiritual advancement, but he feels that the body must be kept in the best possible condition. Prabhupāda: That we also say. We never say... I have already given the example that the driver is different from the car, but if you simply take care of the car and do not take care of the driver, is that very good intelligence? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): So he agrees with you. *Prabhupāda: So the driver is not in order*-he may create disaster at any moment. So the insanity is not of the car, but the insanity is of the driver. So when we feel problems of the humanity, it means the insanity of the soul, not of the body. And because the driver, or the soul, is not taken care of, therefore so many problems are coming in the body. Just like, if one man takes care of hygienic principle, his bodily ailments are less, similarly, if the driver is kept in proper sanity, then there will be no accidents in the car. Another example: just like the bird in, the cage. If you take care of the cage only and do not supply any food to the bird, it will cry, "Tanh! Tanh! Tanh! Tanh!" (aside to devotee:) This gentleman comes. Give him a seat. So the problem is: if we don't take care of the driver or the bird in the cage, the human problems will not diminish, it will increase. Keeping the car in good order does not mean taking care of the driver. And if you don't take care of the driver, the disasters of the car will increase. So what is the program of taking care of the driver? Factually, they do not know what is the driver. And what to speak of taking care of it? This is the problem, real problem. Do you think it is all right or not? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that these points are actually common to many different philosophies, and he feels there are many different ways and many different philosophies for passing our time in this temporary life. Prabhupāda: So he is interested only on the temporary life. Never mind. There may be disaster. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): As a doctor, he says he is naturally interested in this life in the problems of the body, but he also feels that a human being should follow whatever philosophy he chooses in order to achieve what one may call the spiritual world or eternal happiness. *Prabhupāda: Then it is something like that, that the motor mechanic is interested with the motor car, but he is not interested with the welfare of the driver. But the fact is, if the driver is not in order, the car will not go. It may be well*-equipped, well-engined, well-oiled, but if the driver is defective, it will create another disaster. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels that you don't understand what he's saying, that actually he does not feel that we should dedicate ourselves exclusively to the body... Prabhupāda: I don't say exclusively. I say the first care should be taken of the driver, and taking care of the car is secondary. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He agrees. Prabhupāda: So why you do not take care of the dead body? Because the driver is gone. Then who is important, the car or the driver? So that is the defect of the modern civilization. They don't take care of the driver. He is taking care of the car. So you said your, that what is the problems of human society. This is the root cause of the problems, that we are not taking care of the driver; we are simply taking care of the car. But if we take care of the driver, the driver knows how to take care of the car. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that while we are living within this body, we cannot separate the body and the soul... Prabhupāda: That we have already said. There is no question about it, that the driver is there, the car is there. So we must take care of the car, but the first treatment or the first care is for the driver. Just like dead body. The everything is there, present. The machine is there. Now, somehow or other, you again drive it. Why you cannot drive it? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He says the body cannot be driven because the spirit is gone, and that he admits... Prabhupāda: That means the driver is gone. So who is important, the body or the driver? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): Both, he says, are important. Prabhupāda: Both is there, but comparatively, which is more important? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): The spirit is. Prabhupāda: So that is the defect, that the modern civilization, they are not taking care of the spirit soul; they are simply taking care of the machine, body. Therefore the problems are there. You asked, "How to solve the problems?" The problems are there on account of this, that they are not taking care of the driver; they are simply taking care of the machine body. So if you take care of the driver, then he will remain sane, he will drive nicely, the body will not be disastrous, he will live peacefully. This is the problem. If the driver is careful, then he will not require very frequently the mechanical engineer for the car. He will keep the machine in order. If he keeps himself sane, then he keeps the machine also order. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): That's what he said at the beginning. Prabhupāda: So then what is your program to take care of the driver? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels that there are different philosophies and different methods... *Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are different medical men and difficult diagnoses, but the urgent case is: cure the driver, and then car will go on nicely. Unfortunately, modern civilization, they do not know what is the driver. And how he will keep him sane? He does not know what is the driver? He thinks the car is automatically going on. Just like child. A child sees the car is going automatically, but that's not a fact. There is a driver. So if our vision is childish, how we can solve the problems of life? I talked with big, big professor, Kotovsky, in Moscow. He said, "There is no driver." This is a big professor, and he is teaching others. So if the leading men of the world, they think there is no driver, the body is automatically going, then what is the fate of the civilization? [break] No, there are, similarly, capitalists, communists, "this*-ists," "that-ists." Full of these rascals. So how the human civilization can be without problems? The leaders are rascals. How we can expect that it will go on without problem? Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He says that the spirit is also extremely important for the following reason. He feels that the human being needs to have problems and fight for something. The example he gave was in the Scandinavian countries they've practically solved all material problems. They have so many Social Security and this and that, and there are practically no material problems, but they have the highest suicide rate in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes, exactly. So where is the institution, university, for educating people of the spirit soul? Where is it? Therefore the whole civilization is going in the wrong way. Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels there are some people, for example who are teaching the right thing. There are missionaries who go to the Amazon jungles and also to Africa to teach. And he feels they are offering... Prabhupāda: But we find the great cities are great jungles. A great city is a great forest. (lady begins speaking) Let her come forward. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She has said that you have repeatedly talked about those things which are wrong with the society. So she would like to know exactly what you mean by modern society and exactly what you feel are the problems with the society... Prabhupāda: The modern society is not taking care of the driver; they are taking care of the car. This is the defect. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): Also she would like to know what other societies there have been in history which did not have these problems. Prabhupāda: The problems... In the material world this problem is always there. Sometimes it is more; sometimes it is less. Material world means ignorance of the driver. That ignorance is sometimes very big, and sometimes it is less, but ignorance is there. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said in other words it's not a problem simply of the modern society but a problem of man, and then also she said, "What are, more specifically, the problems, and how can we solve the problems?" Prabhupāda: The real problem is that the human being, I am speaking only of human being, not of the animals, because the animals, they do not know what is the problem; neither they can solve it. It is not possible. In the human form of body there is possibility of making a solution of this problem. Therefore in the human society, along with other educational department, there should be an educational department to understand what is soul, what it is (is its) nature, how it is working, what is the future, wherefrom it is coming. So many things there are. But there is no education for this prime factor, the driver. There is no education. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She feels that your affirmation is somewhat radical because she feels there are many groups and organizations of religion and philosophy and so on that are dealing with these matters. Prabhupāda: Then why there is no solution? Lady (Hṛdayānanda): Therefore she is asking you, "What is the solution?" Prabhupāda: Yes, so that solution we are preaching, we are trying to preach. At least one section of people should know the science of the soul. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like medical necessity is there, does not mean that everyone should become medical man, similarly, the science of soul is necessity; *it does not mean that everyone will be the transcendentalist or the scientist about soul. But at least one section of people must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. As much as there is medical man-he knows perfectly well what is physiology, anatomy-there is engineer*-he knows how to construct-similarly, a section must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. So as there is need of medical man, engineer or lawyers or other, similarly, there is need of one section of expert who knows the science of soul. The medical man, the engineer, the archeologist or this or that, they are all meant for the body. Similarly, there must be one expert section who are meant for the soul. But all the universities, they have got these departments, medical department, engineering department, law department, but there is no department which is teaching perfectly well about the science of soul. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said that she has studied... She's not sure because she herself has, for example, studied two years in theology when she was a student. *Prabhupāda: Theology is different. Not very much different, but the modern so*-called theology, that is also different speculation. That is not science. There are different theologists. Science cannot be differently opinion. Two plus two is science. It is always four. Nobody can say that "In my opinion it is five," "In my opinion it is three." That is not science; that is speculation. Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She would like to know what would be the characteristics of this brahminical class, how would they be selected and what are their qualities and so on? *Prabhupāda: Just find out this, satyaḥ śamaḥ damaḥ, titikṣa ārjavaḥ āstikyaṁ, jñānam vijñānam, brahma*-karma svabhāva. Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda: So brāhmaṇa means one who knows Brahmān, the soul. This qualification required. Just like to become a lawyer, one must be graduate. Similarly, one must have first of all be trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then he can understand what is God, what is soul. So there is no such training college. Therefore they cannot understand what is God, what is soul. That is required. Then your problems will be solved. (end) Morning Walk -- February 23, 1975, Caracas Prabhupāda: ...lower animals. Nobody is starving. Have you seen any bird, died of starvation? There are so many hundreds, thousands of birds in this garden. Devotee: Even in all these countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are always complaining about there are so many starving people, but nobody has ever seen anybody die. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) In India also. They, "Poverty, poverty, poverty." Have you seen anyone dying? Śrutakīrti: No. Prabhupāda: They are purchasing eight rupees kilo rice. Śrutakīrti: Even the poorest person seems to be maintaining somehow. Even the poorest people seem to be maintained. [break] Prabhupāda: ...of knowledge, not starvation of food. Vīrabāhu: The modern scientists, they even admit that the body, a human body, is the most perfect machine. They admit this in college. But the same teacher, I heard him saying this, though he says this, he says, "There is no God. This is an invention of the necessity of man." Prabhupāda: Then why do you die? Why do you die? Hṛdayānanda: If it's a perfect machine? Vīrabāhu: No, he says is the most perfect. No one can make something better. Prabhupāda: Where is perfection? Why do you die? You don't like to die. Where is perfection? Nobody wants to die, but it is sure that he will die. Where is perfection? Vīrabāhu: He says because of the fear of dying, one invents God. Prabhupāda: Stop it, this. Then we shall not think of God. You are scientist, rascal. You stop it. Then we shall not think of God. Why you ask stop thinking of God before making arrangement that we shall not die? First of all make this arrangement. The cause of fear, death... "Death is the cause of fear; therefore we are thinking of God." So you stop this cause. We shall not think of God. You were present when this rascal was talking? Vīrabāhu: Yes, yes. That was long time ago. Prabhupāda: Oh, long time ago. You could not answer? Vīrabāhu: Oh, yes, I was new in the movement (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Ask this rascal that you stop the cause of fear and we have no... (to devotee who is walking too close:) Don't come so far. You may... We admit that we are afraid of death. You are also afraid of death. Are you bold enough? If I kill you immediately you shall stand. Ask the scientist, "Are you bold enough to die immediately? I shall kill you?" At that time he will be afraid: "Call police! Call police!" "Why you are afraid of death? You are great scientist. What is your answer?" The scientists are not afraid of death? They are not afraid of death? Vīrabāhu: I really don't know what they will answer. They should be. Sure, they are, inside, but they are puffed up. Hṛdayānanda: They are very much afraid. Prabhupāda: Very much afraid, yes. Hṛdayānanda: There is one great scientist when I was a student, and he was trying to prove how there was no God, and he was so nervous, sometimes he could hardly speak he was shaking so much. (laughter) Vīrabāhu: Oh, yes, that is what happens. When one starts speaking of God, they just... Prabhupāda: So long you have not solved the four prominent miserable condition of life, birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot say there is no God. There is controller who is forcing you to accept these conditions. Therefore there is authority. How you can avoid this? Vīrabāhu: They say, "Some day. Some day we will do." Prabhupāda: Some day, rascal, somebody will come and kick your face with shoes. (laughter) Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, if we go back this way, we'll get back around the right time. Prabhupāda: Why so soon? Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. [break] Prabhupāda: ...accept that they are controlled? Vīrabāhu: They have many contradiction because I learned also that... Prabhupāda: No, what is contradiction? Everyone is being controlled. Where is contradiction? Vīrabāhu: One day they say one thing; one day they say something else. Prabhupāda: That means rascal. That means rascal. One day something, one day..., that means the rascals. Just like yesterday or day before yesterday, "Maybe, perhaps." And "You cannot talk because you have no knowledge. You say, 'Perhaps, maybe.' What is the value of your knowledge? Don't talk." Vīrabāhu: There was this great scientist. His name is Nernst. He said that everything was infinite. That the universe, everything, was eternal, that this universe was eternal. So he got very mad, very vexed because another scientist was telling him, this was, a young scientist was proving that the universe has a time, a specific time, and it will finish. Prabhupāda: No, no, that does not require a great scientist. Anything in this material world which has got a beginning, it has got end. We can experience from our body. The body has got a beginning; therefore it must have an end. Anything which has beginning, there must be end. This is our experience. You take anything material. This tree, it has got a beginning; it has got end. Vīrabāhu: But because it didn't suit to his theories he said that... Prabhupāda: No, no, that means they are rascals. That means they are rascals. They are simply mental speculators. They have no value of their knowledge. We should take them like that, that "These are all rascals." They may be very big man in the estimation of other rascals, but we are not such rascals. We are not going to take their version. (end) Room Conversation with Svarüpa Dämodara -- February 28, 1975, Atlanta Prabhupāda: If sexual intercourse is the beginning of life, then why it is not always successful? We say that when the life, living entity, is there in the semina and it is put into the woman's womb, then body develops. Therefore, the beginning is the life. This is practical. And this life is the part and parcel of the supreme life. Therefore the beginning is God. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So we have to establish this theory in this misguided world that... And besides that, why they cannot produce life from matter? What is the value of their statement? That they have not been able to do. Where is the proof that from matter life comes? You do it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Proof is under investigation. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Eh? That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This proof, that from life, life is coming, there is proof, so many proof. A man, animal, trees-everything is coming from life. Up till now, nobody has seen that a man is born from a stone. Nobody has seen. Sometimes it is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. You know that? Vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Vṛścika means scorpion, and taṇdūla means rice. Sometimes we see some heaps of rice, the scorpion is coming. But that is not that the rice has given birth to the scorpion. You have not seen in your country? We have seen it. From the rice, heaps of rice, one scorpion, small scorpion, is coming. The fact is that the parent of the scorpion, they put their eggs within the rice and, being fermented, the scorpion comes out, not that from rice the scorpion is coming out. Therefore it is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Vṛścika means scorpion, and taṇdūla means rice. So "Life is coming from matter"*-this is called vṛścika-taṇdūla-nyāya. Life cannot come from matter. Besides that... Just like when there is life, living entity, the body grows, body changes or grows, as you say. But if the child is dead or come out dead, then the body does not grow. Then matter is growing on life. Why, a dead child born, it does not grow? What is the reason? What is your scientists' reason? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that somehow the chemical reactions are not going right in the body, in the dead body. Prabhupāda: But you give the chemical. You rascal, you have got so many chemicals. Why don't you give it? What is the use of saying like that? Now the child is dead. Now you give some chemical injection and bring it into life. Why you cannot do that? If you cannot do that, then what is the nonsense, saying that some chemical is missing? If it is missing, you replace it. Why you cannot replace? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they haven't found out the chemical. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. You do not know what is that chemical, and still you say that some chemical is missing. This is going on, bluffing, cheating. This should be stopped. You do not know what is that chemical missing; still, you say, "Some chemical missing. Why do you say like that?" Svarūpa Dāmodara: Recently there were some journals that came out. The title is called "The Origin of Life." I will bring in school when we discuss... It started about from last year. And they have got an international association of scientists, and they discuss about the origin of life. And then... I wrote a letter to the editor of that journal, and they replied me that they're going to have another meeting, international meeting, in Japan in 1977. And there will be several meetings in Europe in the coming years. So their aim and object is to prove that life started from chemicals. It is a big group, all international scientists. So he asked me to become a member of a research group. Prabhupāda: So you become member and protest, "No," and prove. You just become the opposite. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I also asked whether they... Prabhupāda: Don't say, "Yes, it is all right." No, don't say. That will be your duty. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Right now we are planning to write that book all together, all the Godbrothers so that for the God we have some background and what we have learned from Prabhupāda, and then we can... Prabhupāda: This kind of answer, that if I ask you that "You produce life from chemicals," and if you answer that "Yes, we shall do it in future," that is not very scientific answer. What do you think? Is that very scientific answer? Mādhava: No. But that's what they think is scientific. *Prabhupāda: How it is scientific? Life is already there. Not that the life production is depending on your future scientific research. The life is already going there, hundreds and thousands and millions. You say that you do not know. Why you are claiming that "In future we shall know"? There is no need of your knowing, it is already going on. You do not know. That is your position. And still, you are declaring yourself as scientist. You are misleading. You can make a fool's paradise, that is another thing. But you do not know at the present moment, but the things are going on. Life is being produced without your knowledge. So you admit that you have no knowledge. And without having knowledge, you are declaring yourself as scientist*-how much cheating it is. It is not that it is depending on your future knowledge. It is already going on. Life is being produced. So if you think that in future, by chemical combination you will produce life, so that chemical composition is already there, going on. So you have to find out who is that scientist, not that chemical composition. Who is that scientist who is producing so many lives and chemicals? That is real intelligence. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why we title our book as "The Origin of Life in Matter." We do not talk simply "life" because... Prabhupāda: Origin of everything. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Matter, crude matter, origin of the chemicals, the, this carbon, hydrogen, these elements, these also, there is a brain behind it who made these chemicals. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to find out who is that brain, who is that scientist. That is real research. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is brahma*-jijñāsā. Jijñāsā means enquiry, that "Who is that brain?" Because things are already going on. It is not depending on your so-called research. It is already going on nicely. So your business should be: "Who is that brain behind it?" That should be your research, not that how chemical combination can be... It is already being produced without your so-called scientific knowledge. It is already going on. So as you are taxing your brain that "How this chemical combination produces life?" So that brain is already there. Otherwise how life is coming? What do you think? So why you are trying to find out the chemicals? You find out the brain. As you are taxing your brain to find out the chemicals, the original brain has already done it. Now you find out who is that person who has got such a nice brain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the real research. Prabhupāda: That is real research. You point out this, not that, your chemical combination. It is already done. And people are already taking advantage like that. If there is some discovery by some scientist, he praises the man who has discovered this. Rūpānuga: He names the man, experiment for the man. Prabhupāda: Yes. The man is important, who has done it. The person is important. So am I right or wrong? So find out the person, who is that person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Suppose they say that it just came about by chance. Prabhupāda: That is kick on your face with boots. Immediately: boom! (laughter) That's all. That is the answer, only answer. Rascaldom answer, "chance." The only answer is to kick his face with the boot, that's all, as soon as he says chance. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Richard Prabhu is going to write a topic, a chapter, that mathematical proof of the idea that chance comes into play, that... Prabhupāda: Your mathematics is also imperfect because you are imperfect. You are imperfect. There is nothing chance. There must be cause. You do not know the cause. You cannot find out. You are taking a loophole, chance. Then why you are making so many scientific research? Chance, let it happen, everything, by chance. Then what is the use of your scientific research? Let everything happen by chance. There is no chance. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another answer that we come across when we talk with these people... Prabhupāda: There is nowadays the chance theory. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, chance is not so much popular, but the answer that "chemicals were supplied by nature," that's a very... Prabhupāda: No, what is nature? That you cannot explain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the answer, theirs. When we ask the scientists... Prabhupāda: But what is this nature? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the nature is not understood. Prabhupāda: You see? That means you are rascal. You have not understood. You have no knowledge. As soon as you cannot explain, you prove your foolishness, that's all. That is not scientific answer, "chance," "nature." What is the nature? Who is conducting nature? How the nature is going on so nicely? Rūpānuga: You said before they were acting as teachers, but actually they are still students. Prabhupāda: No, they are cheater. They are cheater, not teacher, cheater. They have no full knowledge; still, they have become teacher. You cannot become teacher unless you have got full knowledge. That is cheater. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, suppose that they acknowledge the fact that they do not know, but they challenge, "How do you know what you believe is right?" *Prabhupāda: Because I have approached the Supreme, the supreme brain, Kṛṣṇa. He is the perfect person in knowledge. Aiśvaryasya, jñāna. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26]. He knows everything. He is conducting nature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kālacakro. Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So we know from the perfect. Therefore my knowledge is perfect. I am not perfect; that's a fact. But my knowledge is perfect. Just like I am not an electrician. But the electrician has told me that "You push this button. There will be light." So I am doing that. What is the use of becoming electrician? I want light, and the electrician told me, "Just push this button." I am doing that, and light is there. That's all. You cannot say, "You are not a electrician. How you can say the light...?" And I know from the perfect person, and it is acting. This is our position. It doesn't require that I will have to become electrician. The electrician has told that "You push this button," and there is light. That's all. Does it require that I will have to become a electrician to conduct this light? Rūpānuga: No, it simply requires that one listen and take instructions. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Therefore śruti, Vedas. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhi... [MU 1.2.12]. Hear from the guru and do it. That's all. Nitai: Prabhupāda: Koriho mane āśā. Do not try to research anything. That is final. Rūpānuga: Kṛṣṇa says, "Take it from Me." Prabhupāda: Yes. And if he wants to make research, that means he is a rascal number one. If you want to make research, then search out what is the original brain, not the process. Process is already going on. What is the use of your research, nonsense? Suppose by chemical combination, if you produce one life... You will never be able. But still, if you think that you will be able or you become able, then what is credit to you? Without your help there, millions and millions of life are being manufactured, without your help. Then what is your credit? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imitating a barking dog. Prabhupāda: That's it. So millions of dogs are barking, and one man has learned how to bark like dog, and people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. This is their foolishness. Suppose if you somehow or other become able to produce life from chemical, then what is your credit? It is like barking dog. Millions of dog are barking. Now you have learned how to bark like dog. So what is your credit? It may be for the rascal fools that you are scientist, but we are not so rascal. Rūpānuga: They will clap. The fools will clap. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. "How nice barking. Oh, how he has learned to bark." Just see. We are not so fools. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍo catura: "The first*-class intelligent man is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious." Sei baḍo catura. All rascals. Kṛṣṇa said, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ. "Oh? Also very scientist?" māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: "They have no knowledge, all rascals." Kṛṣṇa says. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, that he is not thinking, that "Suppose I can produce life by chemical combination, then what is my credit? The life is already there. It is going on very nicely." What do you think, Balavanta? If the things are going on nicely, then where is my credit? Either you say, "by chance," or "by God's arrangement," "by nature," but things are going on nicely. So it is same thing, to learn how to bark, that's all. Barking is going on, but he wants to take credit by learning how to bark. That's all. Mādhava: They try to imitate God. Prabhupāda: That's all. That he cannot, and that is his foolishness. Therefore we say that you are cheating. Things are already there, going on. What is your credit? Rūpānuga: The scientists are trying to be the hero. Kṛṣṇa is the hero. He has done everything first, and the scientist wants to be the hero. Prabhupāda: So you have to present like this, that "What is the credit? Suppose by chemical composition you can manufacture one ant. That is not possible. Be assured you will never be able. That we are assured. But even if you are able, then what is your credit? The credit is the man has learned how to bark like a dog. That's all, this much credit." Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they are able to make life, then they are going to say that there's no God. Prabhupāda: Yes, but first of all you produce. Then say. Why you are anticipating that you will be able to...? Rūpānuga: Still, who is the bigger God? If I make one ant, and there's already many, many ants made by a bigger God than me... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, so He is God. Whoever has made the most, He should be God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: So we must recognize Kṛṣṇa as the big scientist. *Prabhupāda: That is... This foolishness is going on throughout the whole world, and scientist and people are after the so*-called scientist, Darwin. So we want to stop this misleading. That is our duty. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, the way they study the origin of life is nothing but the origin of molecules. It's not actually of life, the way they are studying. So there is a misunderstanding what is life and what is matter. Prabhupāda: No, no, whatever they are studying, this rascal cannot make life even with combination of those original molecules. Where is that proof? Our challenge is that because they cannot do it, therefore they are rascals. And that vṛścika taṇdūla nyāya, that a scorpion is coming out of rice, that's it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their claim depends on the... *Prabhupāda: There are life manifestation, according to Vedic literature, that some of the life, they are coming from eggs, some of the life, they are coming from perspiration, some of the lives come from a seed, and some of the life comes from embryo. This is all stated there. Sveda*-ja, udbi-ja, aṇḍa-ja, jarayu-ja. They already there. Jarayu means embryo, and sveda means perspiration. Life is everywhere. When they take little advantage, they come out, manifest. You will find even on the pavement, footpath, as soon as there is crack, some grass is coming out. So life is everywhere, it is struggling, and as soon as there is favorable circumstances, they come in a form. That's it. Life is not created, na jāyate. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate: "Life is never created." It is existing eternally. Therefore it is said, na jāyate. So unfortunate rascals, they do not take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and making research. So we want to stop this rascaldom. They are trying to create life, and it is stated in the Bhagavad..., na jāyate: "It is never created." It is already there. Simply it is coming out, being manifest by different bodies, 8,400,000 forms. That I was explaining last night. According to his desire. The life is already there, and according to his desire, he is coming out in different forms. That is going on. This is a false theory, that chemical can create life. It is nonsense. Life is never created, life is already there. God is already there, and the part and particles, molecules, life, was already there. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. This word is used, kadācit, "at any time." So we have got perfect knowledge. Why should we say, "Yes," with these rascals? We have got perfect knowledge. Rūpānuga: They say matter can never be created or destroyed, but they do not know that life cannot be created or destroyed. *Prabhupāda: Nothing cannot be created. Life also cannot be created. They are already there. But matter is manifest, not manifest. Just like this body is manifest because the life is there. Now, this body will be destroyed, but I will exist. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. I will accept another body, and it will grow. Therefore the matter grows on the basis of life, not that from matter, life comes. This is all rascaldom. So now, by the grace of... We have got scientists. Let them protest. Save the people from this ignorance. Mūḍhā. That is our mission. Give them chance. They have got human body. Let them become Kṛṣṇa conscious and give up all this nonsense thing. Hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena avasthitiḥ. Mukti, this is mukti. They are mad after something wrong. So they should be saved, and they should give up this so-called materialism and come to service to the Kṛṣṇa, his eternal job. Then that is mukti. He is liberated. *Rūpānuga: So this book actually, is directed to scientifically*-minded people because in this age people are getting educated. They are getting scientific-minded. *Prabhupāda: But that creating problem. The psychiatrists came to see me, where? Caracas. So I said-he admitted, both the psychiatrists*-that "You are not treating the real person who is diseased." I gave him the example, that "You have got good car, but the driver is a madman, and he is creating disaster, and you psychiatrists are going to cure it. You never say that 'The driver is bad. Change him or just educate him. Then there will be no disaster.' But you are taking your fees and giving some repairing in the car. But you do not know what is the original cause of disaster. It is not chance. Due to the bad driver." So our propaganda is to give the bad driver nice knowledge so that he can drive the car to Vaikuṇṭha. That is our position. And these rascals, the materialists, they are simply painting the body of the car. And the driver? "Let him starve." Rūpānuga: They are like the cheating mechanics. Prabhupāda: That's all. All these medical men, psychiatrists, they are simply painting the body of the car. That's all. What is that? *Vīra*-lakṣmaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists, they've reported in one journal of theirs that by taking some chemicals of methane, ammonia and carbon and injecting it with electricity, that equation or that formula equates them to an energy that is called amino acid in due course of time. That is, they say, the building blocks of life, of protein. Prabhupāda: So why do they not do that? *Vīra*-lakṣmaṇa: They've made an experiment... Prabhupāda: That means they are not in knowledge. That I am speaking, the barking dog. First of all make experiment, produce life. Then come and say. Otherwise don't bark like a dog, imitation. Simply big, big words. Produce. Our theory is that... In the śāstra it is said harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nās... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. That practical proof we are giving, that these Europeans, Americans, they are simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and how they are coming out, this practical proof. They did not know five or six years ago what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Kṛṣṇa's name. But we are taking the conclusion of the śāstra: in this age, if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes spiritualized. That is becoming, practically. It is not theory. How so many devotees are in this Atlanta, here? Anywhere, wherever we have started, how they have become devotee? Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "You follow this formula and you will become God conscious." That is being practically proved. It is not theory. So that is Vedic knowledge. You adopt Vedic knowledge and get the result, not that "This ammonia, this chemical, that chemical, but I cannot do anything." The rascal said, "That I cannot say." You... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Prabhupāda: He asked him, that rascal chemist, that "If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?" That time he said, "No, that I cannot say." Why do you say like that? In the beginning, in New York, that store front, the Satsvarūpa is with..., and Hayagrīva and... And you chant simply. You were also there. So this chanting is proving efficient. That is Vedic knowledge. It is not theory. Our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not theory or mental speculation. It is a fact. So therefore it is said, Svarūpa Dāmodara: The standard of knowledge has to be there, but they do not know that there is a standard. The scientists, these researchers working in different fields, not only scientists, any field of knowledge, there must be a standard. *Prabhupāda: The standard is given by... That is standard, as that Vedic language, Vedic instruction. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave the standard, harer nāma: [Cc. Ādi 17.21] "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Immediately successful. That is standard. Otherwise how you will find standard? Therefore it is said, guru*-mukha-pad... That is standard. What you hear from a bona fide guru, that is standard. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Anyone who will do this standard, he will become devotee. And as soon as he become devotee, he is fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Yes, this is standard. What Kṛṣṇa says? Find out this verse. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, that is standard. All nonsense. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. Don't accept anything. This is standard. What is that? Paramahaṁsa: Morning Walk -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta Prabhupāda: ...of Europe and America, everywhere. You know who are mūḍhās? Tripurāri: Yes Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Who? Tripurāri: Fools and rascals who won't take your books. Sometimes we convince them that the philosophy is very nice, and they agree when we use Lord Kṛṣṇa's words, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13], and they say "Yes, I can understand that, but I don't need your book," or "I would never read it." We say, "Well, no. Take it." Prabhupāda: (chuckles) You ask them, "So you want to remain mūḍhā?" Tripurāri: We say, "No, take it home, and some day you will read it." They think they can find out on their own. Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. They cannot. Mām eva ya prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Tripurāri: Sometimes they will agree to everything we say, but they will not give a donation. They trust more the man on the T.V. Prabhupāda: This is lake? Devotee: Yes. *Balavanta: In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you say that the Rāhu planet is visible on the full moon night? The Rāhu planet? Prabhupāda: No, when there is eclipse. Balavanta: Oh, eclipse. Prabhupāda: Eclipse means Rāhu planet comes in front. (Apparently reads sign:) "No smoking?" Śrutakīrti: "No swimming." Prabhupāda: Oh. Who is going to swim now? (laughter) [break] Tripurāri: Once Balavanta was very sick when he was dealing with the politicians, and I heard that you said it was because he..., by touching them and associating with them, he accepted some of their sinful reactions. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) I did not say. (laughter) Tripurāri: No? Prabhupāda: But it may be. Tripurāri: So I was wondering. Sometimes our men on saṅkīrtana, they are shaking hands... Prabhupāda: But you are saṅkīrtana. You cannot be infected. [break] ...party is infected, then preaching will stop. If doctor is infected, then treatment will stop. Doctor is never infected. They have good precautions. Similarly, when you are engaged in saṅkīrtana, māyā cannot touch. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. [break] Tripurāri: ...disciples and you accept our karma also. Is that correct? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Tripurāri: That is manifest sometimes in disease on your body? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tripurāri: So our men also are going out and preaching... Prabhupāda: The overloaded. *Dhīra*-kṛṣṇa: When we take your books on the library party to the professors at the universities... (fades out) Śrutakīrti: This way? Śrīla Prabhupāda, Śrīla Prabhupāda... [break] Prabhupāda: I am surprised how I have written so many, what to speak of them? (laughter) It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. *Dhīra*-Kṛṣṇa: One professor the other day was trying to convince one of our boys that you were coming in the disciplic succession and were authorized to translate all these books. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is right. *Dhīra*-Kṛṣṇa: Because he was dressed and he didn't know that he was your disciple, so he was saying, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, he is coming in a disciplic line straight from Kṛṣṇa. That's why he can speak on all these books." Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. That authority I have got. That's a fact. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau, tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakaśānte [ŚU 6.23]. They become manifest, all the meanings of the Vedic literature. Yasya deve parā bhaktiḥ. (aside:) Don't come very near. [break] ...explaining last evening. Don't speculate, hear. That is the qualification. All others, they are simply speculating. How long their energy will go on, limited energy? How speculating will help them? It is not possible. It is condemned. Athāpi te deva, Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta *Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic description. The religious principles cannot be manufactured by anyone within this universe. It is the codes or laws given by God. That is religion. That means we have to know who is God, what is His desire, and we have to abide by that. That is religion. Just like a good citizen means he knows the government and the government laws and he abides by it. Then he is good citizen. Otherwise he is criminal. If he does not abide by the laws of the state, he is criminal. Similarly, if one does not abide by the orders or the codes or the laws of God, he is Satan or demon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. Therefore anyone who is disobedient to God, he cannot have any good qualification. And yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate suraḥ. And one who is devotee, abiding by the orders of God, he has got all the good qualification of God's. Therefore, the duty of the state, duty of the father, duty of the teacher, everyone, those who are guardians*-they should teach their subordinate how to become faithful to God. This one qualification will make him perfect. That is not being done. Everyone is godless mostly. And therefore there is problems, chaotic condition. Nobody is abiding by the supreme law. Everyone is creating his own law. That is the trouble. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for making the human society law-abiding citizen of the laws given by God. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa, God, is giving, "You do like this." If we do like that... Or take even Bible. If we follow strictly, then we become happy. So, am I right or wrong? What is your opinion? Guest (1) (Indian gentleman): You are very right in saying this because we cannot solve any problem. The problems keep on multiplying. When we solve one problem, there are twenty ahead of us. *Prabhupāda: Our first problem is, because we have got this material body, eating. Everyone must eat. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] "If there is sufficient food grains, then both man and animal, they become happy." Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva [Bg. 18.44]. This matter has been entrusted to the vaiśyas. They should produce sufficient food and give protection to the cows for sufficient milk. Then the whole human society, animal society, will be happy. But we are disobeying the orders or the rules given by God. Instead of producing food, we are producing motorcars. And motor tires, motor parts. And so many other things. And therefore people are starving. The manual labor is being misused. We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy. I have seen all over the world. There are enough space for producing food grains. And if we actually produce food grain, we can maintain ten times of the present population of the whole world. There is no question of scarcity because God has created everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God. God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things. People's energy is engaged for... Just like in America or in every country, so much energy and resources are engaged for preparing war materials. And that means there must be war. And you must be killed; I must be killed. You will kill me; *I will kill you. That's all. Therefore God says, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; *and the fourth*-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant. But at the present moment, education means how to become expert servant. That means śūdra. So we cannot expect any good things from śūdra. That is not possible. Formerly there was monarchy, and the kings were called rājarṣis, saintly king. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. These instruction are meant for the rājarṣis, not for the śūdras. So the rājarṣis, they would take instruction from superior authority, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, and they will accordingly rule over. And the vaiśyas would produce food grains sufficiently and milk sufficiently. People would eat very nicely, and they keep their health fit and save time for understanding his relationship with God. That is perfect civilization. Guest (2) (American gentleman): Who is a śūdra? Is it determined by jāti? Prabhupāda: Yes, one who is seeking service like dog. The dog goes door to door and moves his tail: "Give me some food. Give me some..." Guest (2): Is it determined by jāti, by birth? Prabhupāda: No. His quality... He has no quality. Guest (2): Spiritual type. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not spiritual type, it..., material type. He cannot maintain himself independently. Nowadays people are being educated highly, but if there is no service he has no value. Guest (2): So the tamasi. *Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no value. I have seen one doctor of chemistry-he could not get any service*-in Allahabad. His name was Raghunātha Mitri(?), Dr. Raghunātha Mitri. So he was living at the cost of his father-in-law and making some soap and going to the shop for selling, doctor. That means he could not get any service. Now his independence was to manufacture some soap as ordinary man is doing. But he was chemist; he could not do anything. He could manufacture some soap. So in spite of high education, because he could not get a good job, he had no value. Just like the dogs. The dogs, if they do not get a master, nice, then street dog. He is lean and thin and no shelter, no... Guest (1): That is what is happening... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...at the present time in this country to 10% of the people. They don't have jobs. They are let out. They can't... *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, every country, every country. Now, just like you are highly educated. Your country could not give you service. You are coming here. And that is śūdra. One who cannot live independently, he is śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra*-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age, everyone is practically śūdra, because nobody can live independently. So we are producing mass śūdras. Therefore it is in chaotic condition. The Communist is the last word of the śūdras. The Communist philosophy is that "We are worker. We have all the power. We must have all the power." And that they are doing. And because they do not want to obey any authority, therefore they are denying existence of God. This is the tendency of the modern society. Not only they do not know what is God, and they are trying to disobey the orders of God. So practically there is no religion. And without religion human society is animal society. Dharmeṇa hīnā pasubhiḥ samānāḥ. "Human being without any ideas of religion, God, he is no better than animal." That is the difference between animal and human being. Animal eats, we eat; animal sleeps, we sleep; animal have sexual intercourse, we have; *animal also defends, we also defend. These are common features. And what is the special feature? The special feature of human being*-that he can understand what is God. So if he does not understand God, he is animal, because the distinction between animal and man is being avoided. So far other activities are concerned, they are the same as of human being and as of animal. But what is the distinction? The distinction is that in the human society there is an endeavor to understand God, and the animal society, there is no such endeavor. So when the so-called human society becomes devoid of God consciousness, it is animal society. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for raising the human society to the real platform of human society, not to keep them in the animal platform. Try to understand God and love Him. This is the substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So, yes? Guest (3) (Trappist monk): There's three of us here that are monks from Connear(?), Trappist monks, and you use Hare Kṛṣṇa as a way to God consciousness, while in our Christian tradition we use the name Jesus and we repeat it constantly and try to become conscious of him. Prabhupāda: Jesus, did he say... Jesus Christ, did he say that Jesus is the name of God? Guest (3): Well, that's what Christians believe, yeah. Prabhupāda: No, is there anything mentioned in the Bible that Jesus is the name of God? Guest (3): I'm not sure. Guest (4) (Trappist monk): He didn't say it himself, did he? Guest (3): Did he did what? Guest (4): Did Jesus say that he is God? Jesus isn't the name of God. He said, "Son of God, son of man." Guest (3): No, he said God. There's three places that Jesus said he's God, in Hebrews and John, and two places in... Guest (5): "I and the father are one," is in John. Guest (4): Oh, the father and the son is one. Of course it is one. So are we, because we are all children of God. God must be in us, otherwise we couldn't exist. Guest (3): Of course. Guest (4): I am not denying anything, but I'm saying that the meaning might be, that "God and Jesus is one," is in a similar way that I and God is one. Prabhupāda: That is fact. That is fact. Guest (3): Well, again it depends upon the belief of each individual. Prabhupāda: No, Jesus is described as son of God. Do you deny that? Guest (3): Definitely, he is definitely son of God just as you and I are. But at the same time, as Christians... Of course it's a matter of belief. Prabhupāda: That's all right. The son and the father, they are the same because son is born out of father. So how he can be different? In that sense it is one. Guest (3): Yeah, I'm not denying the fact that God... Prabhupāda: No, no, try to understand. Just like here is a son, and here is a father. So there is no difference because the son is the expansion of the body of the father. So how the body and expansion of the body can be different? They are one. But still, in relationship, son is son, father is father. In relationship... Just like the mother is there, and her relationship with husband is different from her relationship with her son. In that sense, the son and the father, different, but in quality they are one because son is the expansion of the father's body. Therefore, simultaneously, they are one and different. That is real understanding. So if the son sometimes says, "I am one with the father," there is no controversy because he is one in quality. Guest (3): This tradition of the names was a tradition that was developed for two thousand years, beginning with the monks, and which most Christians are really not aware of, that through this japa a man can come to consciousness of God. Prabhupāda: Yes, when one comes to God consciousness. And the relationship is "God is great; we are subordinate." Just like the father is the maintainer, and the son is maintained. Although the father and the son of the same quality, still, the relationship is the father is the maintainer, and the son is maintained. Guest (5): That's, of course, not the orthodox Christian interpretation, that's supposed to be. It's very clear by the time the decrees were worked out that Jesus is not a creature. He's incarnate God. Guest (6): You say that we are creatures, and we are subordinate to God, and I can understand that. Christ was not created. *Prabhupāda: Yes, none of us are created. Just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā... *Guest (6): Yes, I understand now. I spoke earlier with some people... In other words you say we are co*-eternal with the father just as Christ is. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are all eternal. That is nityo nityānām. I have already explained. Nitya means eternal. There are two eternals: one chief eternal, God, and one subordinate eternals, they are plural number. God is one, and we are many. Father is one; *the children are many. Similarly, both the father and the children are eternal. God is not created, and the childrens are not created. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. All these living entity, they are never created; *neither they ever die. Nityaḥ śāśvatam na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. They are eternal, ever existing. Even after the destruction of the body, they are not annihilated. So God is eternal. That I have already explained. And we living entities, we are also eternal. How the son can be otherwise? If the father is eternal, the son is also eternal. The son cannot be... Because son is the expansion, part and parcel of the father, so all the qualities of the father are there. The only quality difference is the father maintainer and the sons are maintained. That means the father has got unlimited resources to maintain the sons, and the sons, they have no resources. They are maintained by the father. This is perfect philosophy. Otherwise, if you are self*-sufficient, then why you go to church and beg father, "Give us our daily bread"? That is... That means you are maintained. You are begging the father, "Please maintain us." So if the Supreme Being, who is maintaining millions of trillions of living entities, He is great, or the living entities who are maintained by God, they are great? Therefore God is great, and we are subordinate. This is natural conclusion. How you can go otherwise? If you are self-sufficient, why go to church and pray, "God, give us our daily bread"? Are you independent? Guest (6): No. I am a creature. Prabhupāda: That is subordinate. Yes. Everyone is creature. He is the supreme creature. Guest (6): I am servant of God. He is my life. Without Him, I can't live. I understand what you're saying, but I believe that our tradition from the Old Testament says that we were created by God. Prabhupāda: In one sense we are created, just like father creates the sons, not the sons create the father. In that sense we are created. (pause) So taking this word, that "sons were created," so the father existed before our creation. So He is not of the same quality again. Guest (6): It's a mystery. We can only bow down before Him then. Prabhupāda: That is our business. (laughter) This word, "creation," is applicable in this material world. In the spiritual world there is no creation, the father and the son existing eternally. When we come to this material world... Material world means it has got beginning, and it has got end. And spiritual world means there is no beginning, no end. That is sanātana, eternal. Guest (1): That is the point of a steady state theory of the universe also, that it... Arthur Hubble, I think, in Oxford. He talks about a steady state theory of the universe. But the whole idea is that the whole universe has always been there, and it will always be there. It might change in shape, like on the expressway in the morning. Any one morning you may look at it, blue car is here and the red car is there and another day the green car might be in the same place. So there might be transitory change, but he maintains that it has always been there. So I can see the point. There is a big controversy going on, and he might be very well right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's talking from a physical concept. Guest (1): The big bang theory and the steady state theory of the universe. And they have come up with a cyclical theory of the universe also, that there is a big bang and the universe expands and then comes back again, like in Vedic philosophy, they have one mantra... Prabhupāda: Hm, bṛhattvād bṛhannatvād iti brahma. Guest (1): So they are coming back to that kind of thing that we have not solved any questions. From the point of view of science things are changing all the time. It is very exciting. The Old Testament too and the New Testament, I don't remember everything. Guest (3): ...can tie in with the idea of the spirit being eternal in Christ, and I believe Christ himself said that we have all been with him from the beginning. Guest (1): And there is no beginning. According to the ideas, one group of science data, there is no beginning, and therefore there is no end. Guest (5): It's the alpha and the omega then. Swami, do you see a difference or a conflict between being a devotee of Jesus and a devotee of Kṛṣṇa? May one be both? *Prabhupāda: A devotee means, real devotee means, he has no purpose for material gain. That is real devotee. Now we have to see what kind of devotee he is. There are two kinds of devotees: with purpose and without purpose. The "without purpose" devotee is pure devotee, and "with purpose" devotee, they are material devotee. That is distinguished in Bhagavad*-gītā, Guest (4): I am not clear on what you're saying that for someone... Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you have got some motive and with motive you go to God, that is not pure devotion. Guest (4): It is wrong to petition God? Prabhupāda: No, it is not wrong, but it is not pure devotion. Guest (4): I see. *Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if you go to God, that is very good. With motive or without motive, you have come to God, that is piety. That is better than to become impious. Impious men, they do not go to God. Just like nowadays nobody goes to church. Church are selling. Simply... Temples also. So now there are in India so many township development. They are constructing very fashionable houses, but no temples. Nobody is constructing temple. At the present moment everybody has become disinterested with anything religion and God. All over the world. That is degradation. Especially I am seeing in Bombay, that Juhu scheme, very nice houses are being manufactured. You have all seen. But nobody is constructing a temple. The modern economists, they say "nonproductive endeavor"*-means there is no income. Simply you have to spend money for maintaining the temple. So they are not interested in nonproductive things. So this is degradation of the human society. Either as Christian or Hindu or Mohammedan, nobody is interested. A few may be interested. (pause) Balavanta: These are some psychologists, Śrīla Prabhupāda, from the University of Georgia. This is Michael Green(?). He's a lawyer in Atlanta helping us. Prabhupāda: So your question was devotee and not devotee, no? You questioned? Guest (4): I am a Christian, yes. Prabhupāda: No, no. Your question... Guest (4): Oh, do I have a question? Yes, to my question, you answered it. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the question of Mr. Psychiatrist? Who is psychiatrist? You are? Come here. Guest (7): No, I have just come to listen. Prabhupāda: Thank you. The other day in Caracas two or three psychiatrists came. His question was how to solve the problems. So our statement is that unless you treat the spiritual disease of the human society, then the problems will increase. It will be never be solved. The real disease is spiritual disease. Guest (7): The young children also? What about young children? Prabhupāda: Yes. Young children should be educated from the very beginning about God consciousness or the science of God. We had the opportunity in our childhood. My father taught. And then, when I was grown up, my spiritual master taught. So for that reason we have got some sense. Spiritual education should be given... Guest (7): Quite right. Prabhupāda: Nowadays small boys, they are learning how to smoke. When I was first in America, in Butler, so I saw small children, ten to twelve years or almost ten, nine. They were smoking. I was surprised because in India, at least, that is not allowed. I think there is law. If any boy smokes less than sixteen years old, he is punished, in India. What is that? Guest (7): I am looking at him. He is ten years old. Prabhupāda: Oh, you can give him some book to see. (end) Room Conversation with Svarüpa Dämodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta *Prabhupāda: Try to understand this, that life is always there, as God is there. So these living entities, part and parcel of God, they are also there. That God has got multi*-energies, potencies. Out of that, three potencies have been taken as very important. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. God has multi-energy. Out of that, three energies have been taken as principal: material, spiritual, and marginal. The material energy is this material world. The spiritual world is the spiritual energy. And we living entities, we are also spiritual, but we are called marginal because we may live under the subjugation of material energy or spiritual energy. So the living entities, they are eternal. Their only position is marginal, sometimes manifested here, sometimes manifested there. So in the material world the living entities are already there. You haven't got to create. That is foolishness. It is never created. Simply in the material world it becomes manifest in four ways. Some of them are coming like trees, plants. And some of them are coming from perspiration... not coming, being manifested through fermentation, perception. And some of them are being manifested through eggs. And some of them are being manifested through embryo. The living entity were already there. Their struggle is going on, and they become manifest in the material world in four sources. In the spiritual world there is no such... They are eternally existing. There is no question of manifestation. So this is the science of living entities. What do they know? Therefore I say they are rascals. They do not know anything, simply trying to create. What is the creation? It is already there. But they do not know what is this, and still, they are scientists, they are advanced education. All rascal. They do not know. Therefore through Bhagavad-gītā we say they are rascals. Mūḍhā. Now you tell these mūḍhas that "My dear sirs, you cannot create; *neither it is created. You find out how they are coming out, what is their source, who is the brain behind all this nature. That you find out. That is knowledge. So if you struggle for this and try to find out the original source of everything, then some day you may come to this platform, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su*-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. Then you understand that Kṛṣṇa is the source of everything, and then your knowledge will be perfect." This is the... Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Whatever we see, that is, the source is Vasudeva. Do you think this nice flower has come out without any brain, this nonsense philosophy? The so-called scientist will put some bombastic word, "this, that..." What is that explanation? Nobody can understand. It will be understood by them only. They will put some language in such a way that it is to be understood by them. Unless they explain, nobody will understand. They say it is automatically being done, nature. That's not the fact. Nature is an instrument. Just like this wonderful machine, computer. But still, there is operator. But they have no common sense even, that where is the machine that is working without any operator? Where is that machine within their experience? How they suggest that the nature is doing automatically? Nature is wonderful machine, but the operator is Kṛṣṇa. That is real knowledge. Because the machine is working wonderfully, there is no operator? Where is that experience? Have you got any experience, Dr. Wolf, like that? Dr. Wolf: No, sir, I don't. Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got any experience? You have got any experience? Then, why do you say nonsense, this? You have no experience, and you say something nonsense, ludicrous. They say "nature." What is the nature? Nature is a machine only. Just like the harmonium. It is also machine. But if one expert operator is there, it makes very melodious, oh, nice. So will the harmonium play automatically? And bring melodious sound? So they have no common sense even; *still, they are scientist. That is our regret. They are less than common sense man. That you have to expose, that these people have not even common sense, and they are passing on as scientist. That you must protest because you are servant of God, you are servant of the scientist. Call them directly rascal. Let them defend that they are not rascal. He brought some scientist. I called him, "You are rascal, you are demon. You are everything," (laughs) and he tolerated. That means internally he accepted that he is a rascal. (laughs) Actually they... They have no common sense even. So we are not scientist, but we speak from common sense. That's all. Yesterday or day before yesterday, I was talking on common sense on law points, so Rūpānuga said that "You are bigger than lawyer." I do not know that I am bigger than lawyer, but I was speaking on common sense. The difficulty is they are misleading. So many people are being misled by the so*-called politician and scientist and... But Gandhi says... He has written so many nonsense things. One thing is that he said, "I do not believe that there was anybody as Kṛṣṇa living ever. Kṛṣṇa is of my imagination." These things he has written. And he is Mahatma Gandhi. Mahātmā's definition is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Mahātmā means devotee, who have understood vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But these rascal politicians, they have become mahātmā. For politics, they can do anything, lie like anybody, and so many things. There was a big writer in Bengal. So he is giving evidence in the court... That's a comic. So he says, "Do you think I am editor? I am pleader? I am prostitute?" Means indirectly he is saying that they are prostitutes. As the prostitute can say anything, lies, for their profession, similarly, these people, the editor and the..., pleaders, they are like that. "Do you think I am prostitute? Do you think I am lawyer? Do you think I am editor, newspaper editor?" So take this formula from the śāstras that a living entity is never created. These rascals are trying to create living entity and spending money and going to hold big, big conference. So where is the question of creation? They are already created. Why this common sense do not come in their brain? Why? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they are illusioned. Prabhupāda: Innocent? Rūpānuga: Illusioned, illusioned. Prabhupāda: Oh, illusioned, yes. *Rūpānuga: Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. They are so-called educated, doctors, but actually they have no knowledge. Simply they are bluffing, cheating. Where is the question of creation? So many millions and trillions of living entities are there, and they are making conference, "How to create from chemicals?" Just see this childish proposal. And wasting time and misleading person, and wasting hard-earned money of the state. And big, big foundation supplying them money. And if you ask, "Give us some money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness," "No, no, we are not interested in religion. We are interested in science, and this is the science." All fools and rascal, mūḍhā. That is our test. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a mūḍhā. Bas. We have got the test tube, this Bhagavad-gītā, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So as soon as we see here is a man, if he has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, "All right, you are mūḍhā." That's all. We haven't got to test him. Test tube is already there. So you tell these mūḍhas that "Why you are wasting so much time and money to find out how to manufacture life? Then what are these life? How they have come? That is not a problem, that without your creation of life the world will go to hell. It is already there." What do they say? "Why they are trying to create life?" What is their answer? What they will get it? The things are already there. Suppose there are so many motorcars, and if I manufacture one motorcar, so is there any great credit for me? The motorcars are already there. When there was no car, motorcar, the first man who manufactured, he had some credit. Who manufactured? The Daimler or somebody else? So he had some credit, "Yes, you have done something, horseless carriage. People will get something convenience. That's all right." But when there are thousands and millions of motorcars and creating accident only, and still, if I manufacture motorcar, what is my credit? What is my credit? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Zero. Prabhupāda: Zero. And they are going to put this zero, and they are going to have some big conference. So many people will come and spend money unnecessarily. Mādhava: They want to make a better human being by making life themselves. They want to make it better. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our proposal, that don't waste time. You are living entities. There are so many living entities. Now try to understand what is your actual constitutional position so that you may become happy and peaceful. This research should be done. Why they are going to waste time in this way, money and time? You can write to the organizer, sponsor of this meeting, that "Why you are foolishly going to waste time like that?" You can say, at least, "My Guru Mahārāja says like this." Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think if they're trying to create life they want to claim authorship. They want to say, "We did it," but they do not understand that they will... Prabhupāda: What do they want to claim by creating life? Dr. Wolf: Authorship. Originators. They want to be... Prabhupāda: Origin is already there. How you can be originator? Already life is there. How you can be originator? That is your foolishness. Rūpānuga: They're simply trying to disprove Kṛṣṇa. "If I can do this," they're saying, "if I can create life, then there's no need to postulate a God. I can be God." Prabhupāda: That means demon. Rūpānuga: Yes, they want to be God. Prabhupāda: So how we can respect the demons? We cannot. Rūpānuga: No. We'll not give them any credit. *Prabhupāda: The other fools, they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say, "You will never be able." You can say. This rascal, we can give some knowledge, that "Your this attempt will be failure," because we know life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na jāyate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad*-gītā's assertion, na jāyate na mriyate. "Neither it is created; neither it dies." So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now let them prove that can he create. This is our position. So Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what Kṛṣṇa speaks. That's all, finished. Rūpānuga: They're like you described yesterday, when the scorpion comes from the rice. They think that when some living entity becomes manifest that he's being created. That's because the material... Prabhupāda: That also he cannot do. Rūpānuga: No. Prabhupāda: How the scorpion is coming out of rice, that they do not know. Such a foolish person, he is scientist. Rūpānuga: They're thinking because they are able by different methods like synthetics and through chemistry that they can produce... Prabhupāda: That is craftsmanship. That is not knowledge. Rūpānuga: But still, they are thinking because they can do, make the background a little... Prabhupāda: Just like if you paint a picture, rose, you are a painter, not that you know the knowledge. A painter is not a man of knowledge. Man of knowledge means he knows how things are being done. That is man of knowledge. Painter imitates some painting, that's all. He may be a good painter, but a painter is never taken as man of knowledge. I think, therefore, two departments, art and science. So this knowledge, this technical knowledge... Suppose one man has created an aeroplane. That is an art; that is not knowledge. Rūpānuga: So if they create some synthetic, that is an art. Prabhupāda: That is an art. Rūpānuga: Simply copying what is there. Prabhupāda: Just like a good cook is a good chemist. He knows how to mix up the maśālās and ghee and makes very tasteful thing. So you can call him a good cook. The chemistry is nothing but mixture of different chemicals. That's all. There is oil. There is alkaline. You mix it very proportionately, and soap comes out, very useful. Mādhava: Prabhupāda, how can we explain to the scientists how gross matter is being produced from subtle matter and ultimately from life, from consciousness. Like if a scientist were looking at the creation occurring... Prabhupāda: Every scientist knows that originally the sky, the sound, and from the sound, then, what is? Air? What is the process of creation from subtle to gross? Rūpānuga: First the ether produces sound. Prabhupāda: Yes. From sound there is air, from air there is fire; from fire there is water; from water there is earth. This is earth, water, air, fire. And the sound, transcendental sound... As it is said in the Bible, "Let there be creation." And in the *Vedas* also, it is said, sa aikṣata: "He glanced over." That is to be found out, how from sound, from ether, sound is coming... I think that is already in the science. Is it not? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not known, natural sciences. Mādhava: You gave one example of television. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Mādhava: You gave one example of television as showing that gross form comes from the ether. The transmission of television... Prabhupāda: But that now, this television, yes, coming. Sound is coming, some ethereal vibration and so many things. That you have to see. But in the Vedic knowledge is already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: The question that Mādhava was raising that came up in the questions that all the forms of these living entities which... All the species, their forms, their gross forms... Prabhupāda: That is coming from mind. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, whether that has come all of a sudden. Prabhupāda: No all of a sudden. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Or is it by gradual evolution from... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Sadā tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. As you are thinking always, so you are creating your next body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That still is not the answer. What we want is, at the time of creation of the material world, when all the species, 8,400,000 species... Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are all simultaneously manifested, just at once? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But they are not manifested yet. Because it was like sleeping. When there is no creation and..., there is sleeping stage. Just like in the sleeping stage, even at the present moment, at night, the dog is sleeping, the bird is sleeping, the man is sleeping, the tiger is... Everyone is sleeping at night. But in the morning, as soon as they awake, they understand, "I am tiger," "I am dog," "I am man," "I am this," "I am that." Everyone remembers that "I have to do this. I have to do that. I have to go there. I have to bring money from there." All duties come immediately. So all these living creatures who are sleeping at night, but when there is morning, they again become the same. That is creation. Rūpānuga: But when Brahmā creates, does he first of all create the aquatics, then the plants? Prabhupāda: No. Rūpānuga: No, everything is at once. There's no gradual, it is all immediate. Prabhupāda: There is a process, from aquatics to this, this, this, this, but when there is creation, all of them come at once. Rūpānuga: So that process is transmigration of the soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Rūpānuga: That is evolution. Prabhupāda: So in the last creation, if somebody could not come to the human form of body, now again he will be able to come. Therefore the creation is there. Another chance is given. Rūpānuga: Yes. Otherwise there would be no chance. Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is the idea that matter comes from life. Prabhupāda: Life, yes. Dr. Wolf: I do not quite see how. I do not quite understand how matter can come from life. Prabhupāda: Just like a man, a mechanic, was sleeping, and as soon as he awakes, he again begins to manufacture motorcar. In the sleeping stage he was doing nothing. But awakened state, he begins his work. So therefore he is living being, and the motorcar comes from him, not that the motorcar was sleeping. He was sleeping, the living entity. Dr. Wolf: Can one assume that matter is a kind of energy? Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is also energy of God. Dr. Wolf: But which of the three types of energy does matter come from? Prabhupāda: Matter, material. Dr. Wolf: The material energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the material world there is question of matter and spirit. In the spiritual world simply everything is spiritual. Dr. Wolf: Can we assume that energy itself, all three types of energy, are related to life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Wolf: They emanate from life. Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Find out this verse. Ahaṁ sarvasya. Sarvasya means both matter and spirit. (Prabhupāda gets up and begins to leave room) Rūpānuga: We had some... Can we get you something, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want something? Prabhupāda: No, I am going for... Rūpānuga: Now we have some questions we have to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because we're writing a book, we have some specific questions. We have to have time to get these questions in. Did you write them down, Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? (some discussion amongst men in room) [break] Satsvarūpa: "The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." Prabhupāda: That's it. He has found out the original source. There is no conference needed. Rūpānuga: This other question. During the day of Brahmā at the end of every Manu there's a partial devastation of the planets up to earth and celestial, right? Now, at that time there's like a flood, and the animals that are in their particular stage of transmigration of the living entities, their bodies are all killed. Now, at that time, when the end of that period is over, how are the bodies manifest? This is a question Richard Prabhu was asking. Prabhupāda: There is no body. They are reserved in the Viṣṇu's body. And again, when there is creation, they come out. And therefore matter comes from the spirit. Matter is there, creation, matter. So take advantage of the matter. Just like the cloth is there. You cut it according (to) your body, and there is a coat. The spiritual body is already there. Now the matter is there. Now, from matter, you take. You make your body like a dog, like a ant, like a fish, like a tree, like this. Rūpānuga: So all the different species are created again simultaneously. Prabhupāda: That is... He died with that mentality. It is there. Just like we go to sleep, but all your mental activities are reserved. In the morning again you begin. Mādhava: Prabhupāda, you say that the living entity, he is thinking about a particular kind of body and a particular activity... *Prabhupāda: Not particular body*-particular desire. And according to the desire, Kṛṣṇa is giving him facility through the material machine to give him a particular type of body. Just like one man is thinking of eating anything nonsense. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You give him this body of hog. He can eat even stool." That's all. You want to be naked, nudie? So Kṛṣṇa gives him, "So he is very much anxious to become nudie. Make him a tree. Stand up for five thousand years naked." This is going on. Mādhava: If I desire... Prabhupāda: Whatever you desire. Mādhava: If I desire something to appear here now... Prabhupāda: Yes, you will remain here as insect. Mādhava: No, if I desire a plate of prasādam to appear here... Prabhupāda: Then you will go to Vaikuṇṭha. (laughter) Mādhava: How do I do it by just desiring? How is it done? Prabhupāda: By desire you are creating everything. Why these material varieties? You desire. In the spiritual world also, varieties. You desire. You want to serve Kṛṣṇa as His friend, you want to serve Kṛṣṇa as His lover, you want to serve Kṛṣṇa as His father, as His servant, or you want to serve Kṛṣṇa by supplying fruits and flowers, or river Yamunā. Everything, whatever you like, Kṛṣṇa will give you opportunity, in this material and the spiritual world. Svarūpa Dāmodara: After complete annihilation and then, when the creation starts again... Prabhupāda: There is no question of annihilation. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I mean the material universe. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is manifest, not manifest. Not annihilation. The energy is there. Just like sometimes I become angry, and sometime I am peaceful. But that means anger is annihilated. Anger is there. It may be manifest at any time. There is no question of annihilation. You say like that because actually it is vyakta, avyakta: manifest and nonmanifest. Rūpānuga: We don't see it, so we say it's not manifest. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So during this time there are still living entities which are not manifested. Prabhupāda: Living are already there, but his desires are manifest or nonmanifest. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the living entities are there, but they stop manifesting the different bodies. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you cannot see him without body. That is your defect. There are so many living entities in the air. You cannot see them. That is your defect. Therefore, Vedānta-śāstra*-cakśuṣā: "You should see through the śāstra, not with your so-called eyes." Rūpānuga: Śarīram puruṣo veda.(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is through śāstra, authority, not by our senses. That is not knowledge. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that explains the... Sometimes some scientists ask that "You are very sure, so sure about the 8,400,000 species." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They ask, "How are you so much sure about 8,400,000 species?" Prabhupāda: Because we have heard from authority. As you are asking assurance from me, so I give you the knowledge from where I have heard. You want to hear from me. I have heard from authority. That's all. What is the difficulty? Why you are asking me? You want to hear from me. So I have also heard from authority. This is the statement. You take it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when... They say that there are some plants that can grow from just branches... We stick the branch in the soil. Then it just grows to another plant. Prabhupāda: The same thing. The living entity is there, but he is manifested in such a way. The same explanation. Just like there are many living entities within my body, and when this body is stopped, decomposed, they come out in different forms. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Are these living entities constant? They don't change any. *Prabhupāda: Yes, nitya, nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Why don't you see these references? It is never created. It is ever*-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who knows, he knows that he has changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows. When a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child. Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now he has become robust build. He cannot say. And the mother says, "He is my child, that child." So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. *Satsvarūpa: "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever*-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." Prabhupāda: That's all. So where is the question of creation? But because we have got these material eyes, we want to see everything through this material manifestation. We are seeing that he is dead, he is alive, he is born, he is this, that... Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the defect of the scientists. They only see the body. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their defect. Therefore asses, go*-kharaḥ. That is defined. Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharaḥ, animal. And that is our protest, that "You are animal; you are passing as very learned scholar, scientist." That we want to protest. We want to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and... That is our protest. Mādhava: Can we say that the living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules and the atoms come together to form a body just like the scientists give explanation? No? We can't? Prabhupāda: No. Because the living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That's all. That is depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops. The machine is there, the everything is there, but this rascal mechanic, he comes, "Something is missing." And why something missing? But he does not know the missing part is the driver. He is finding out in the motorcar what is missing. The motorcar, everything is there. The hand is there, leg is there, heart is there, the intestines are there, everything is there. So they cannot explain. They say, "Now the blood has become white." Then make it red. Where is the difficulty? So they do not know what is missing; neither he'll take, I mean to say, learned instruction. That is their defect. Real thing is the driver is missing, but that they will not accept. They are so foolish, they are thinking that motorcar is running automatically. Rūpānuga: Like a child. Prabhupāda: Like a child, yes. As the child will say, "Oh, motorcar is going on." Sadāpūta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would it be possible for them to make a body and have a living entity enter into it? Prabhupāda: Yes, there is yogic principle. They can enter into a young body and act as young man. Sadāpūta: So a scientist then could claim he created life. He could... The way they talk, if he made a cell... Prabhupāda: First of all let them, these foolish rascals, let them understand what is the point who is missing. Then they will replace. They have no knowledge what is missing. They are so fool. Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they would not create. They would only imitate. Prabhupāda: That is not... It is never created. That is their missing point, that life is never created and they are trying to create. Mādhava: Their theory may be right about how the body forms, but they're missing the soul? Prabhupāda: Body forms... As soon as there is life, body will form by nature's arrangement. Mādhava: May their theory be right? Like they say they come from amino acids and so many things. But... Prabhupāda: That may be or may not be. Who cares for them? It is being already done. Rūpānuga: They're simply describing it. Prabhupāda: That is also... Because they have no knowledge, how they can describe? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're explaining that, just like Śrīla Prabhupāda's example that the driver in the car. So inside the... We also say that "Yes, molecules are the ingredients to build the material bodies. But this does not mean that molecules are the living entities." Prabhupāda: That's it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a driver necessary. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the first instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra... [Bg. 2.13]. Dehinaḥ. There is a living entity, driver, within this body. That is the first instruction. Unless one understands this simple thing, he is an ass. There is no knowledge. Because everything is based on something fictitious. This is the first thing one has to learn, the scientists, that there is the driver which is missing. Or the driver is moving this body. And if the driver is educated, then he can move this body to Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead. Then he becomes perfect. So we are educating the driver. We are not painting the tin car. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mādhava: Does the scientist actually observe something external to his mind or does he only observe... Prabhupāda: Speculation. Mādhava: Only in his mind. Prabhupāda: That's all. Just like you cannot see actually what is beyond the wall, and there is some sound. You can simply speculate, "This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this. This sound is due to this," but you have no clear knowledge. This is called speculation. But if a man behind the wall says, this sound is... (end) Room Conversation with Indian Scientists and Dr. Fenton, Professor of Religion at Emory University -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta (excerpt) Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi [SB 1.1.1], the real truth, not this relative truth. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. Indian man (1): Certainly I recognize that happiness does not come out of material prosperity. But material prosperity is also equally important for a good existence. Morning Walk -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta Prabhupāda: Matter is also there, but matter means it is sometimes manifest, sometimes not. But life is always existing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unless the matter is touched by life, it cannot... Prabhupāda: Manifest. Just like this coat. It has not automatically come on my body. I have gathered it. Similarly, life is there, and it is gathering the matter to dress himself in a particular way. This is the varieties of life. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We give that example that the difference between life and matter... We say that the difference is that the material living bodies... We live in a material body, but the material bodies, when a living entity stays inside a body, is fully automated, fully equipped. *Prabhupāda: Life is enjoying or trying to enjoy the matter. Matter is prakṛti, and the living entity is puruṣa. The chief puruṣa is Kṛṣṇa, and we are trying to imitate Kṛṣṇa to enjoy. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Living entity is superior prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ paraḥ. It is a prakṛti, but they are trying to become puruṣa. This is struggle for existence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...trying to live within the water. They are not trying? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. They have several plans to procure food from under the water, under the ocean. So they have all of these different schemes already started. Because the shortage of food on the surface of the earth... They say it's going to be very imminent in the coming future. So they have already started plans to make some food... Prabhupāda: Another nonsense. (laughter) They are not producing food, they are producing motor tires, and still they will say "shortage." Just see. Now, in this city of Atlanta or any big, big city, who is producing food? Everyone is eating; nobody is producing. Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say it is produced by farmers. Prabhupāda: Yes, but... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even their soap's called produce. (?) Prabhupāda: Farmers are producing, and you are eating, but you are not producing. Therefore gradually your food will be shortage. You are depending on others. The farmers, they do not produce food for human being. They produce food for the cows. Svarūpa Dāmodara: For the cows? Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know this? These rascals produce for the animals, not for human. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the human beings are cows, then. Prabhupāda: No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They eat the cows. Prabhupāda: They eat the cows. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh. (laughs) Prabhupāda: In the Bengali there is a saying, tomara ye bhalo vasa, mussulmane murgi posaya. You know this? That "Your love is like the Mohammedans keeping chickens and love him." That means "The chickens be fat, and I shall eat it." This is your love. They are keeping cows not for love, but for eating. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in the sense, farmers, that they produce the grains and vegetables. I was thinking in that line. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is somewhere in India still. But here they keep cows not for protection, for eating. [break] ...chemical. Life is already there. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, what they are saying is this, that the..., when they examine this body in the minute details-they call the molecular levels-they find only molecules. They don't see anything. For example, when they analyze the hand, they saw it-this is proteins, protein molecules, some fats, some carbohydrates, and they don't see anything else except molecules. And at the same time, when they study-they are called the biochemical pathways in the living cells*-they find only these DNA molecules and the different molecules that carry out different activities. That is why they say that there is..., what we call life is just nothing but arrangement of these molecules in different ways. So that's why they say that "Yes, life started actually from these molecules." Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce life from the molecules? Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'd say that when science started or knowledge started, it takes some time. It cannot come all in a sudden. Prabhupāda: So what is this knowledge? The molecules are already there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they'll say in about, say, about two hundred, three hundred years ago, they didn't know these molecules. Rūpānuga: They say, "Rome wasn't built in a day." Prabhupāda: No, no. It was not known to you, but what was the harm? And what is the benefit when you have known it? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because, they say, without knowing, it's not advancement of knowledge. Prabhupāda: But you have not known it. You have not known it. You cannot claim that you are advanced. You are still foolish. Why you are claiming advancement? You have not known it. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, but they are saying that "In due course of time we are going to know it." *Prabhupāda: Ah, that is another foolishness. That we do not accept. You have not known it till now. You are foolish still. That you have to admit. "In future you will be a rich man, and therefore you give me a post-dated check"*-who will accept it? The foolish person will accept it, (laughter) that "I am giving you the check, ten million dollars. You can take it after three million years (laughter) when I shall become rich." It is a proposal like that. No intelligent person will accept that check. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they say that "About two hundred years ago, yes, we were foolish, about two hundred years ago." Prabhupāda: You are still... Still you are foolish. (laughter) Why are you claiming intelligent? Admit it, that still you are foolish. "We have known the molecules." So what is the benefit of knowing? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because that is a part of our man's inquiry, inquiry to know something. They don't want to be in darkness. Prabhupāda: The enquiry may be, but whether that enquiry is properly answered, that is the thing. Enquiry there is always. But where is the answer of the enquiry? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The answers, without knowing the goal, remain unanswered. (end) Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta Prabhupāda: No, no, I shall learn. I shall... Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they are used to cheating and so they couldn't believe Kṛṣṇa either... Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Dr. Wolf: They are used to cheating and that's why they don't trust anything and anybody. Prabhupāda: Hm. Sceptic. Dr. Wolf: Because they are cheaters themselves. Prabhupāda: Sceptic is not a scientist or a man of knowledge. He's unbeliever, that's all. Rūpānuga: Sceptic can actually not have full knowledge, he can never have full knowledge. Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (1): The scientists, they cannot understand the (indistinct), they can understand what is the relationship between the world of ideas, the world of names, and the world that they see. How can we explain what that means? *Prabhupāda: There is spiritual and material. The material is simply a phantasmagoria. It is the imitation of the reality. That is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, fifteenth chapter, find out. Ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham [Bg. 15.1]. That is called mirage. In the desert the animal is finding water. There is no water in the desert. But there is water, but not in the desert. That they do not know. So this is just like desert, this material world and everything is reflection like the water. But desert there is no water, it is only reflection. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayo yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā. Tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayaḥ. Here everything is a transformation of three material things, fire, water, and earth, but it looks like reality. Just like the mirage, that is also tejo-vāri-mṛdāṁ vinimayaḥ, by reflection of the sun falling on the sand, and it looks like water. This is (indistinct). And the animal is running after water, running, running, running, when he becomes fatigued (he) dies. That's all. Devotee (1): But here in the material world when we look for water, we actually take it and we can drink it. Prabhupāda: That is not water! That you do not know. Devotee (1): That's not water either. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? *Satsvarūpa: Ūrdhva*-mūlam adhah-śākham. "The blessed Lord said: 'There is a banyan tree which has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is a knower of the Vedas.' " *Prabhupāda: Ūrdhva*-mūlam adhah-śākham [Bg. 15.1]. Where you have experienced this tree? You have experience: a tree is adhaḥ, down, a mūla, the root, is down and the tree is up. And here it is said, ūrdhva-mūlam, the root is up and the branches and twigs, they're down. Where you have experienced? Eh? Dr. Wolf, where you have experienced this tree? Dr. Wolf: I know of it, yes. Prabhupāda: Eh? Dr. Wolf: I know of the tree with the fruits up and the leaves down, yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? What is that? Dr. Wolf: There is one. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We say the water. We say the reflection of a real tree. Dr. Wolf: Right, right. Prabhupāda: So reflection is not reality and therefore it is compared like that. It is not reality. Rūpānuga: Otherwise it would be satisfied. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: If it was real we would be satisfied with it. Prabhupāda: Hm. Devotee (2): So the scientists are engaged in minutely analyzing this mirage, the reflection. They're wasting their time. Prabhupāda: Yes, now you are right. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have some specific topics that we wanted to have Śrīla Prabhupāda's instruction about these things that we are going to write. So shall I discuss them very briefly? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The title is "The Origin of Life and Matter," and then there will be a sub*-title called "Life is a Manifestation of Life Only." Prabhupāda: Mm? Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Life is a Manifestation of Life Only." I mean "Life Comes from Life." Prabhupāda: Mm. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the sub*-title. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then we have some tentative titles of the chapters and the first one is "A Unique Differentiation between a Living Spade(?) and a Non*-living Matter." Prabhupāda: Mm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This will be tentatively planned to write by me and the second chapter is "The Eternality of the Living." That's also by me. And the third chapter is called "A Look at the Natural Laws Regarding the Origin of Life and Matter." In this there are different sections. First section is quantum mechanical demonstration that will be written by Jad (?) Prabhu, he's a mathematician. Prabhupāda: Oh. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the second part of it... Prabhupāda: That theory, mathematics, you presented... Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, this is... Prabhupāda: His. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's his. Prabhupāda: So it is very nice. You have dedicated to Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then? Svarūpa Dāmodara: The second one is "Order Cannot Arise from Disorder." This will be based on mathematical arguments. Prabhupāda: Very good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also Jad Prabhu's (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And third one is "The Statistical Disproof of Darwin's Theory." This is on advanced mathematics. That also Richard Prabhu's duty. Prabhupāda: Very good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then on fourth chapter we have a section called "False Theory," namely that life originates from matter. This will be Mādhava Prabhu's... Prabhupāda: Life originates from matter? Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. Devotee: False theory. Prabhupāda: About false theory. Very good. (laughter) Very good, it will be very nice. You have all Kṛṣṇa's blessing, do it nicely. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then from fifth chapter it will be evolution versus transmigration. Prabhupāda: Mm, yes, very good. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And explanation. That will be written by me. Prabhupāda: Mm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And then on the sixth chapter there will be a topic called "Molecular Evolution." This will taking the jumbles of the scientific findings, but we use it as a jumbles and turn around to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that will be by me and... *Prabhupāda: That is vṛścika*-taṇḍula-nyāya. Is not that? The last chapter, what he means? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, this one? Prabhupāda: Mm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is molecular evolution. Prabhupāda: Ha. Molecular evolution takes place when the light is there. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually when they say molecular evolution, it talks only about molecules. They don't talk about life. Because they don't know what life is. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they talk only about molecules. That everybody knows that molecules are around and it's evolving. But they don't know that there is life. They take... Prabhupāda: That is their defect. That is their defect, we want to educate them on this point. Svarūpa Dāmodara: And on the seventh chapter there is that Prabhupāda's, that theory of acintya-śakti. Prabhupāda: Mm. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be a collective effort of all the prabhus from the movement. Prabhupāda: Yes, acintya-śakti is there, within our body. Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to present it in some sort of very good arguments, foundations are there. It will be our collective effort. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: There was another devotee, Jñāna dāsa, in Germany, who is a graduate from Oxford University, their school. And we have invited him to come to this meeting but he did not respond. Maybe he will come and help in the future. Prabhupāda: Mm, yes. Rūpānuga: He has, what is his field? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. His topic was classical, statistical (indistinct) proof. That was allotted to Jñāna dāsa Prabhu, to Germany. (indistinct) Mahārāja sent a telegram, and I also personally wrote a letter saying that he should participate in writing (indistinct). He has a (indistinct) background, he told me (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes, this is nice, attend. Kṛṣṇa will help you. They are wiping out Kṛṣṇa, and your business will be to establish Kṛṣṇa. Hm. Satsvarūpa: 1.1? Prabhupāda: Take the index, otherwise how you will find out? Rūpānuga: The index. *Prabhupāda: This I want. You are nicely educated. Now by dint of your education, you prove that background is Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Then your education will be perfect. Otherwise you are one of these fools and rascals, that's all. The particular type of education, mathematics, chemistry, physics, what you have learned after working so hard, now you should by your educational-departmental education*-you prove that the background is Kṛṣṇa. Then your education is perfect. That is the verse, idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Viṣṇu. The śruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Viṣṇu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of viṣṇu*-māyā do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization..." *Prabhupāda: Nature, viṣṇu*-māyā, nature. They are bewildered simply by seeing the nature. Then? *Satsvarūpa: Viṣṇu*-māyā means sense enjoyment which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by viṣṇu-māyā utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Śrī Nārada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them. Prabhupāda: Absolute, that is absolute. *Satsvarūpa: "Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Vālmīki was a great poet, and similarly Vyāsadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by so doing have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. Philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad*-gītā also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kīrtana, or glorification of the Lord." Prabhupāda: That is perfection. If you can write this book nicely all together, it will be a great service to Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa will bless you and help you. Rūpānuga: Will you read the rest of the chapters? Prabhupāda: Mm? Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in the eighth chapter there will be... Prabhupāda: Just make that Dr. Agarwala also interested. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he can... Prabhupāda: He is the also scientist, professor of physics. Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Defects and Errors in Scientific Research," it will be a title and we will find out all the mistakes that normally found in scientific research. That will be written by Mādhava Prabhu. Prabhupāda: And add "and how to make it perfect." Find out the defects. Don't be, what is called...? Rūpānuga: Negative. Prabhupāda: Negative only. Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, we want to bring the, our four defects in our sense perception. Prabhupāda: Sense perception is defective. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there are four defects. Prabhupāda: And if you go beyond the sense perception, that is perfection. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be Mādhava Prabhu's duty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then on the ninth chapter there will be a topic, "The Ultimate Research," (indistinct) research. Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That... Prabhupāda: Ultimate research is to find out the brain. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Absolute. Then there is no more defect. Everything is perfect. That is stated, dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta*-kuhakaṁ paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Nirasta-kuhakam, where there is no defect, that is vaikuṇṭha-dhāma. Dhāmnā svena nirasta-kuhakaṁ paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. The absolute truth, we offer our respectful... That is the beginning of Bhāgavatam. Nirasta-kuhakam, where these defects cannot enter. Just like sunshine, in the sun, darkness cannot enter. There is no possibility of darkness going there. Is it possible? So similarly, in Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama; māyā andhakāra [Cc. Madhya 22.31], there is no question of defect there. Rūpānuga: Read that other verse. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: In this respect I wanted to phase this on (indistinct) that ultimate research, that brahma*-jijñāsā. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-jijñāsā. That is beginning of knowledge, what is the absolute truth? Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the research topic. Prabhupāda: Mm. Now this subject matter should be taken up seriously in the human form of life, that is the suggestion. Atha, atha, ataḥ, now you have got this human form of life, therefore you discuss about the absolute truth. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Yes? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next one is, next chapter is "Matter Originates from Life." That one of Dāsa (?) Prabhu's. And on the eleventh chapter there will be (indistinct)... Prabhupāda: Matter is a manifestation of life's energy. We can daily experience. The matter, hair is growing. Cut, again growing. Why? Because there is life. Dead body, hair never grows. Is it not? Mādhava: Well the scientists will say it's just recombination of matter. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when there is body dead, no hair grows. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's a nice example. Prabhupāda: They can use some bombastic word but we layman, we see this is the position. And you do not know how it is being done but the energy is there in you. That is called acintya-śakti, inconceivable energy. That is there. Now you shave every morning and next morning, again millions of hairs. You do not know how it is being happening. But it is happening, and this is called acintya-śakti. From Kṛṣṇa such big, big things are coming out. Even Kṛṣṇa may not know but Kṛṣṇa has got the inconceivable by which it is coming. The same example. Rūpānuga: People will speculate so many theories as to why the hairs are coming out but then after some time they will see that theory is wrong they'll have to present a new one. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their rascaldom. Rūpānuga: And until they come to understand that Kṛṣṇa is pushing it, then they will never understand what's actually causing everything to grow. Dr. Wolf: False ego. Prabhupāda: That's it. So give something. *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last chapter is entitled "Intellectual Amalgam, Psycho*-social Implications." That will be Rūpānuga... Prabhupāda: What is it? Rūpānuga: It was their idea. In a book like this there has to be some social conclusion as to the effects of such atheistic theories. Prabhupāda: Yes, the people are being misguided. That we want to stop. They have got this human form of body, that is an opportunity to understand himself and God and act accordingly. Now they are being misled. It is a social disservice. Cheating. In the name of scientist, they are exploiting this innocent person, taking their money and spoiling it without any good result. Rūpānuga: My idea is that they are... Actually the scientists are preaching void. They are preaching to the people... Prabhupāda: But what is the necessity of preaching void? Void is void, that's all. Rūpānuga: There's nothing to say about that. But because they're saying that, the people think that at the time of death there's nothing, so they want sense gratification. So the scientists are selling them their gadgets. They're selling them cars and things to keep them in sense gratification. Prabhupāda: We can see when a man is in coma, he cries, he suffers. Before death when a man is in coma sometimes tears come. Now why he says there is nothing? Imperfect knowledge, that's all. Misguiding people. Rūpānuga: The last chapter's the nicest. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last chapter is-that Śrīla Prabhupāda suggested*-that was "The Original Idea is Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the concluding chapter. That will be a collective effort from the... *Prabhupāda: That's nice, do it. Sincerely pray to Kṛṣṇa and He will give intelligence. Now write nicely. Teṣāṁ satata*-yuktānām, dadāmi buddhi-yogam [Bg. 10.10], Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence. Yena mām upayānti te, such intelligence which will help him to come back home, back to Me. Rūpānuga: If we are strong in the principles, then we will have the intelligence to write this book. Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will give the intelligence. What is that? Satsvarūpa: "To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Rūpānuga: Buddhi*-yoga. Prabhupāda: Hm. Rūpānuga: It will take us some time. Prabhupāda: It may take, that is... But do it very nicely. How many pages will it be? Svarūpa Dāmodara: We plan about 500. Prabhupāda: That's nice. Then we shall immediately publish. What (is) the title you have given? Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's called "The Origin of Life and Matter." The origin of everything. When one talks about the life here in the material world, one cannot leave matter. Because the scientists, what they are doing, is the materialists taken it for granted. They do not ask who made this matter. So they've started at... "Oh, matter is already, given by nature." So they'll take the matter and then start life. That is their increasing. So we want to bring it that matter is also from life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: That's like saying the car produces the driver. That's what they're thinking. Prabhupāda: The car necessitates the driver's service. Otherwise car is useless. Rūpānuga: Neither is the driver dependent on the car for his existence. He doesn't need the car. The car needs him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: They also say that the car created itself somehow or other, the metal and everything. Prabhupāda: That is not the fact. Car requires the help of the driver. Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have interest for these journals, say life, origin of life, that started from last year. So here the international scientists from all over the world, they have combined together and then they formed this, this is all chemicals, this. And they're a big group. Prabhupāda: So why don't you protest? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's what we're starting the background. *Prabhupāda: Refute their arguments, then it will be nice. Aiye (Hindi*-Prabhupāda greets guests and asks which province of India they come from and they reply Punjab). How long you are here? Guest (1) (Indian man): (Hindi) Emory University. Devotee: Oh, Emory. *Guest (1): Yes, Emory. (Hindi*-explains that he works at the Primate Center) Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are doing research on primates. Guest (1): I work on the nervous system of primates, trying to find out the effect of broking (?) malnutrition of the mother on the developing fetus. Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the field where the scientists are trying to prove that life is originated from matter, this type of research work. I called the director of that institute a couple of days ago and I told him I wanted to look around. And he told me that we need a formal application in order to visit that center so I'm going to make. (to guest:) Ordinarily in there, what do they do? Guest (1): There are a number of projects and there are a number of disciplines in which people work. Mine is experimental nutrition. Prabhupāda: So you are also believing that life comes from matter? (laughter) Guest (1): No, I don't think we think in those directions at all. We simply just conduct experiments, not knowing what they will lead to and try to describe whatever we see under the microscope. (indistinct) chemical matters that we use. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think you have assumed that Darwin's theory or theory of evolution is already there and even to study something intermediate, higher levels, evolution is all right but... Prabhupāda: Basic means evolution. Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want to study more some of the intermediate stages like this metabolism in some... Prabhupāda: Mother's, mother's body? No? Svarūpa Dāmodara: Any system, mother's body or any living systems. Guest (1): What I can do is to study the growth and differentiation of the nervous system, different parts of the nervous system and how it is affected by lack of protein in the diet of the mother. Prabhupāda: That is medical science. Guest (1): Because all over the developing world there are millions of mothers who would not get any great quantities of protein while they are pregnant. In the first instance before they are pregnant, they are not nutritionally prepared for having another burden of a baby inside their body, and without that adequate preparation when they become pregnant, this is a double stress on their physiological systems. And we would like to see how the baby gets affected. Prabhupāda: So if by chance there is baby, killing. Is that the conclusion? Guest (1): No, our conclusions just say that there is a critical period in the development of the baby that if it does not get any good nutrition at that time, then he's likely to be retarded in many respects. Prabhupāda: Therefore? *Guest (1): The number of cells that he comes equipped with is less than the normal and number of enzymes that must be equipped in certain proportions do not come in the right proportion so that the later functioning is not to the mark. Therefore full and cognitive ability is very much affected. So what we are trying to do is-hopefully in the next five years we can do it*-is to define a critical period. We do not know yet what is a critical period. We are talking of a very large time, large span of time, but most probably it is only a few months period in which if the baby is supplied very well, at least then our system will not be affected. His body may be affected. By the lunch program in a school they have been able to improve very much the physical characteristics of the body but if the mental mischief has been done, it is done. It cannot be corrected later on. So... Prabhupāda: No, now this killing of the babies are going on. Guest (1): You mean abortions. Prabhupāda: Yes, and not abortion, killing, regular killing. Sometimes they kill, the doctors. So it is going to be supported, like that, scientific research? *Guest (1): No, Swamiji, it's a matter of opinion when the mentally fetus becomes an individual. If you think that as soon as it is conceived, it is an individual*-of course it is because it's going to grow into one-then of course it's killing. Prabhupāda: You believe that the child in the womb is not individual? Guest (1): No, I don't have any personal thoughts about it though. But I think if a woman thinks that she is not suited as a mother... Prabhupāda: Then why she has sex? *Guest (1): Well, in this present world I think, you know, sex is not for procreation, it is more for fun. I think ninety*-nine percent of the couples who indulge in sex do not think of children at that time. Prabhupāda: But that is sinful. *Guest (1): That's true. But this is also true that ninety*-nine percent people when they indulge in it... *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-nine percent may be all rascals and fools, that is not true. Guest (1): For the common, I think masses, some practical means are needed rather than... *Prabhupāda: Practical is that our śāstra says that pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. The idea is that one should not become a father, one should not become a mother, unless they know how to make his child immortal. Because soul is immortal but he is entangled in this material body, therefore death takes place. Actually soul is not born, na jāyate na mriyate vā. So this process is going on, transmigration of the soul from one body to another, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The father and mother should be so enlightened and educate the son in such a way that this is the last acceptance of material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], he may not accept again this material body. If the father and mother is determined in that way, then they should become parents, otherwise no. Guest (1): Swamiji, I think, you know, you are very right but we are the one in India who face this problem the most. We should not have gone to this stage which we are, six hundred million people. I think the most of us are, you know, procreating without any thoughts about the next generation. Prabhupāda: Then that is not for Indian and European, that is for everyone. That ignorance and knowledge is everywhere. It is not the Indian or American. That ignorance is everywhere. Guest (1): But Swamiji, while the family norm here in the western countries is 2.3 children per couple, we still have a family norm of about six children per family. You know I think there are a lot of cultural factors that are... *Prabhupāda: No, that shastric injunction is, that is spiritual restraint. Therefore one should train himself when to have sex life or when to become father, when not to become. That education... Not to become like animal, dogs and cats, whenever there is sex desire, we must have. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā, it is said, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out this, dharmāviruddhaḥ. Guest (1): Swamiji, do you recognize that India does need some method at this point... Prabhupāda: Why you are speaking of India. Everyone needs, all over the world. Guest (1): Because we are the most unfortunate one that with only... Prabhupāda: You are unfortunate because you are now following misleaders. You do not follow the real leader. Guest (1): We have only 2.4 percent of the land area and we support 16% of the human population. You see this land... *Prabhupāda: That is due to your ignorance. You have followed the so*-called rascal politicians. You have not followed Kṛṣṇa. Therefore this misfortune is there. Misguided. Now... Guest (1): Everything comes from the mother earth. We are in very short supply of things. *Prabhupāda: No, no. No shortage. That is everything supply. You have got the Vedic knowledge. You don't take care of that. You now manufacture your own knowledge. Now there is knowledge, this Bhagavad*-gītā is perfect knowledge, but even a political leader like Gandhi, he says that I don't believe that there was anybody like Kṛṣṇa living. This is your leader. All the ācāryas, previous ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, big, big, stalwart, learned, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Now Gandhi says, "I don't believe." Now you are guided by Gandhi, you are not guided by the ācāryas. That is your misfortune. You are not guided by Kṛṣṇa. You are guided by Dr. Radhakrishnan. That is the misfortune. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31], one blind man is being, is following another blind man. That is going on. That is going on all over the world, not only in India. Guest (2): I think Mahatma Gandhi followed the *Gītā*, all these... Prabhupāda: But he did not believe in Kṛṣṇa and he followed *Gītā*. Just see. Guest (2): (indistinct) Prabhupāda: No, just try to understand the psychology. He says plainly that I do not believe there was anybody Kṛṣṇa, living ever. And he's following Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Just see his position. Guest (2): No, he must have also answered this question. Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no questioning. If you do not believe in somebody, how you are reading His book of knowledge? Guest (2): That's my point also. Prabhupāda: Yes, so therefore... This kind of leader we are following, contradictory. That is our misfortune. Guest (1): Swamiji we are not following any person but we do see the realities all around the world. *Prabhupāda: Realities... If you have no knowledge, what do you know about reality? If you have no knowledge, then what is reality, what is non*-reality, how can you know? If your knowledge is imperfect, then how you can say reality? Suppose beyond this wall you cannot see, and how you can speak of the reality beyond this wall? That is misfortune. You do not see what is there clearly, and you are speaking on the reality. Your senses are defective. What do you know about reality? Guest (1): In the spiritual level yes, we are very blind. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is reality. Guest (1): But at the material level, at the level where people eat their food and live their lives, I think... *Prabhupāda: That is also on account of presence of the spirit soul. Actually it... Whatever little you are doing on account of presence of the spirit soul, as soon as the spirit soul is gone then your body and senses are simply lump of matter. So you are working with that lump of matter on account of presence of the spirit soul. Therefore that is more important. To understand what is that spirit soul, how it is working, what is his position, that, that is real knowledge. Therefore Kṛṣṇa begins in the Bhagavad*-gītā, first lesson, about the spirit soul, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So you are studying the deha, that we are discussing just now. One is studying the motor car but he has no knowledge of the driver. Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may I venture very humbly to this opportunity of saying something I've experienced so much with people, that they would say, "Oh yes, we are ready to respect the spiritual values, but we live in this real world, in this material world and so we would rather not have the spiritual values interfere with it, settle everything in the material sense." Prabhupāda: No, they, what they are saying, "real world," that is unreal. Dr. Wolf: They don't realize that. *Prabhupāda: No, their knowledge is so imperfect, they're taking asatyere satya kori māni. Asatyere, you understand Bengali? Asatyere satya kori māni, accepting the untruth as truth. Asatyere nitāi*-pada pāsariyā, ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā nitāi-pada pāsariyā, asatyere satya kori māni, by forgetting our relationship with God and being proud of their so-called... [break] That motor car is not your life. That is being misguided. Everyone is thinking that this body, motor car, is everything. But within, the driver, he's starving. So how long he'll carry on this motor car. So first of all take care of the driver who will protect this motor car nicely. And if the driver is a nonsense, he's starving, then how can I expect the car will go very nicely. It will create disaster. Disaster means... Suppose you have got very nice car, Cadillac or, many good cars there are, Rolls-Royce, and he smashes. Then he'll get ordinary car. This human body is smashed... [break] ...hāntara-prāptiḥ, you enter into the dog's body, finished. That is not in your control, that is God's control, nature's control. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], it is not under your control or so-called science. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27], kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22], these things are there. Guest (3): Do you think Swamiji, the scientists would be able to create life as they... *Prabhupāda: That I was discussing, that is foolishness. That is*-I was discussing-life is never created, life is already there. The body is created. So they are going on on a wrong theory. Guest (1): I think our definition of life is a little different. Prabhupāda: You may define differently, that is your concern. Guest (1): We are talking about a protoplasm, something that moves. It may not have the soul, it may not have any... Prabhupāda: "May not have," that means you have no real knowledge, "may not have." "May not have," that is not knowledge. I say, "May have." Then what is the difference between you and me? "May not have," that is not knowledge. That is simply suggestion, speculation. Guest (1): Want me to give examples... Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to take knowledge from the perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]." You have to take that knowledge. You cannot say you are perfect and you'll say, "May not have." And what is this knowledge, "May not have"? Say definitely and prove it, scientifically. That is knowledge. "Perhaps," "May not," "May be," these are not knowledge. Guest (1): Just to give one example, these days the science experiments have conclusively done that a particular egg can be in the body of the womb, can be manipulated into either a male or a female. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We say the soul is within the body so you can make it male or female, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We are not concerned with male and female, we are concerned with the soul. Guest (1): Science does manipulate life. Prabhupāda: Maybe, even if you manipulate, then what you have done? You cannot create the soul, that is not possible. If you manipulate life then give the dead body again energy to rise up. Then we shall (admit) that you can manipulate. Otherwise it is false. If you are so expert in manipulation, then give the dead body life again. That is my request. If depend on others and you manipulating, this false knowledge will not help. Guest (1): Swamiji, what actually I was coming to, most humbly, cannot spread to the (indistinct) science go together. It's not... Prabhupāda: No, if science is really science, that is helpful. If science is based on wrong theory, then what is the use of that. Everything is wrong. So many mathematical calculation, if there is any item wrong, then whole thing is wrong. Guest (1): So we are all moving in the darkness, ignorance, to begin with. Prabhupāda: Yes, that if you admit then you will get knowledge. But that is not the position. You are falsely proud that you are very advanced in knowledge. Guest (1): No Swamiji, no... Prabhupāda: Then you are qualified. Guest (1): Even for a small experiment, I don't pretend that we know anything, whatever it is. *Prabhupāda: Actually that is the position, therefore our business is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa demands that, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Then Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence how to become perfect. Guest (1): That we believe in. Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not perfect. We can speculate only and that is not perfection. "Maybe," "perhaps," like that. No definite knowledge. The definite knowledge you can get from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect. Therefore all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa. We have to follow the ācāryas, ācāryopāsanam. So in India all these ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, they accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme absolute. Why you should not? Are you more than these ācāryas? Then? That is the defect of modern education, they manufacture education although they're imperfect. They have no the common sense that "I am imperfect, how I am manufacturing education and becoming teacher. My becoming teacher is cheating because I have no perfect knowledge." Knowledge means it must be perfect, not "maybe," "perhaps." This is not knowledge. Definite knowledge. Guest (1): But to bring some message of truth to the people all over the world which are... Prabhupāda: Yes, the message is there, Kṛṣṇa's message. Guest (1): Four billion, we need some people who will say, "I am the teachers." Prabhupāda: No, that we are teaching, that you take Kṛṣṇa as the authority. Don't go to the rascals. All problems will be solved. But they are going to the rascals, instead of going to Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Guest (3): You mean Swamiji then that all scientific efforts, whatever they are, should be stopped altogether? *Prabhupāda: No, not stopped. Just like you have got ordinary car and you purchase a Rolls*-Royce car. The business is the same. It is simply an artistic improvement. In the ordinary car there is much jerking and the Rolls-Royce car there is no jerking. That will not benefit you. After all it is car. You can use it for going here to there, there to here, that's all. Therefore our Vedic civilization, they are not very much eager to manufacture a motor car, they are satisfied with the bullock cart. Because after all you have to go from this place to that place. And there was no need of big, big roads, three thousand miles long for driving the car. You see. The bullock cart was sufficient, here to there, a few miles. But they were interested to cultivate spiritual knowledge. That is Indian civilization. Vyāsadeva was living in a cottage and just see literature. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was prime minister of India and he was living in a cottage, drawing no salary and he has given his politics and moral lesson, so sublime. So here at the present moment, the motor car civilization, he's anxious how to get a Rolls-Royce motor car, that's all. That is his business. Guest (3): When you say Swamiji, very humbly I would like to know, that scientific inventions should not be stopped, what should be the actual modus operandi continuum on... *Prabhupāda: Modus... athāto brahma jijñāsā, to enquire of the absolute truth. Jīvasya tattva*-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ, karma you should do but the kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ, find out this verse. (aside:) You can close this door. Kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ, our desires should not be engaged for sense gratification. That is going on. All desires, all improvement, all science, they are being... Just like you were speaking about the protein deficiency. That is all concerning the body. Body means senses. There is no higher study. Guest (3): That we admit that there's not very high study and it's not something final but I think some... Prabhupāda: No, that protein fooding supply... Suppose the birds and bees, they have no research institute. They have sufficient protein supply, this supply and that supply by nature. An elephant has got so big body and so much strength that they have not found it by your scientific research. The nature is supplying. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27], it is being done. Why you are wasting time in this way? You study what is prakṛti, and what is behind prakṛti. That is real study. The protein supply is already being done. Just like a cow is eating grass and she's supplying milk, full of protein, so do you think the protein is coming from the grass? Can you eat grass? Guest (3): Something must be... Prabhupāda: Some... That is something, then there's no perfect knowledge. That is not perfect knowledge. It is... Everyone knows the cow does not take any protein food, it takes on the grass. Guest (1): Grass is quite rich in protein. Prabhupāda: Then you take, why you are searching after protein? Guest (1): Because we cannot digest the fibre in it. Prabhupāda: Then? Then it is not suitable for you. Therefore nature's arrangement is that protein can be produced through the body of the cow. Guest (1): I think Swamiji, nature's arrangement was not made for (indistinct) human beings that we have come. Prabhupāda: Nature was defective, you mean to say? Guest (1): No, sir. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest (1): I mean nature's way is designed as a ecological balance of the... *Prabhupāda: Nature's... If you follow the nature's law, then everything is there. If you deviate (from) the nature's law, then that is defective. (indistinct*-some guests reply all together) Guest (1): Swamiji, nature's balance has been upset by us, us... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Therefore I say... Guest (1): Otherwise there would not be that many human beings here. It was all the time checked by nature's forces. We have just constrained nature by our efforts. Prabhupāda: So that is, that is my point that nature is doing. As soon as you violate nature, then you become defective. That is... Therefore one should live natural life. Satsvarūpa: Kāmasya nendriya? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Satsvarūpa: Do you want me to read this, kāmasya nendriya*-prītiḥ? Prabhupāda: India? No, I'm not speaking of India. *Satsvarūpa: Kāmasya nendriya*-prītiḥ. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, kāma, yes. Read it. Satsvarūpa: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses." Prabhupāda: Read the verses. Satsvarūpa: *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the meaning that kāmasya, we have got some demands of the body. That does not mean it is meant for sense gratification. We require something, āhāra*-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam, these four things are the demands of the body. We must eat something, we must sleep for some time, we must have sex life also, we must defend. That is all right but not for sense gratification. That a child is required, progeny is required, for that sex life is good, but they are using sex life for pleasure and killing the child. And implicated in sinful activities and therefore suffering. And scientists encouraging them, "Yes, you can kill child."Why should you create child and kill him? That nonsense, they cannot understand. Guest (3): That's right. Guest (1): Swami, can I ask you a very silly question which has been asked to us a lot of times and we don't have a satisfactory answer, to whit: why is the cow sacred and not the other animals? Prabhupāda: Because it gives milk. Guest (1): But there are a lot... Buffaloes give milk too. Prabhupāda: Not so much. Guest (1): In larger quantities. Prabhupāda: But, milk means it is scientifically proven, milk means cow's milk. Guest (3): But what about the killing of those cows which are not the milching type, as cows that are being bred here? Prabhupāda: First of all, killing is sinful. Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is sinful, it doesn't matter whether you kill cow or goat or anything. But from economic point of view, cow is very important because it supplies milk. And milk preparation, we Indians know how many you can get nice milk preparation. Dahi, rābṛi, this, that, Huh? But how nutritious, how palatable. And that is good for human being. First thing is that why you should kill if you have got sufficient food, eh? Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. Eh? Vegetables, fruits, then food grains, then sugar, everything is there sufficient. At least we Indian, we know we can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations, nice palatable, enjoyable. Why should you go to kill the animal? Guest (2): Well scientists claim that meat ah... Prabhupāda: Scientists, first of all we have rejected that. Guest (2): ...provides excellent quantity of proteins. (laughs) Prabhupāda: But however protein you may accumulate, can you stop your death? Guest (2): No. Prabhupāda: Then what is value of protein? If you think that protein will save you from death, then you collect the best protein. But after all, you are going to die. Nature will not allow you to live, even you take much quantity of protein. Guest (2): That's correct. Prabhupāda: First of all make solution that you will not die. Then try to find out best protein. What is your answer about this birth, death, old age and disease? Can you check it? Guest (2): No, sir. Prabhupāda: Then? You take protein, why you are becoming old? Guest (2): The researches, though they have been made, they are imperfect again. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): They are imperfect, surely imperfect. "Maybe," "perhaps." (laughs) (indistinct) But scientists say that Rome was not built in a day. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Therefore Indian civilization is that you take rice, wheat, ḍāl, vegetable, a little milk, whatever protein and vitamin A,B,C,D can be available, that is sufficient. Guest (2): Dr. Malhotra has done excellent work on nutrition and he has done two books. In those books he has advocated that milk is not the only best diet. Balanced food, you can have by I mean ḍāls and so many other sources. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Milk is not the only one. Prabhupāda: In, in, in your Punjab, in United Province... Guest (2): At least his (indistinct) approach it is not one sided. Guest (1): Swamiji, my main question is although spiritualism is the Absolute Truth, can we not in some way make spiritualism in such a way, modify it in such a way, as to help the common people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): The masses. Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing. Guest (1): They have been steeped in ignorance for such a long time, it will take a long time to bring them into the fold of spiritualism. *Prabhupāda: No, it has been made easy by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That you don't commit sinful activities and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and don't commit sinful life, that's all. And sinful life we have given them, no illicit sex-we don't say, "no sex"-no illicit sex, no illicit sex, no meat eating. Suppose... They are not now eating meat, are they unhealthy? They are known now as bright-faced. So no illicit sex, no meat eating, no intoxication, and no gambling. This is avoiding sinful life. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you see the result? Do you see the result? Within four, five years how they have advanced. Not that they're Vedantists or they have studied all the Vedas, not that. Simple thing. Have you ever come here in the evening when they perform ārati, kīrtana? Just see how ecstatic it is. Simple thing. Don't commit sinful activities and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, bas. You'll become elevated. Jagāi, Mādhāi, they were-in those days, because they were drunkards, women hunters, meat-eaters*-they were considered most sinful. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu delivered them by this process. There were two Jagāi and Mādhāi and now hundreds and thousands of Jagāis and Mādhāis are becoming purified. Pāpī-tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. Everyone wants evidence. Huh? Pāpī-tāpī, all sinful men were delivered simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you may ask what is the evidence? Tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi, the evidence is here, jagāi mādhāi. So not that Jagāi, Mādhāi five hundred years ago, now see at the present moment. They did not come to me after studying all the Vedas, and Vedantists. They come to me, I ask them that, "Don't commit these sinful activities and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."That's all. Everyone can do, even the child can do. So you are all educated men, you study this philosophy, try to understand, also join. It is your duty, because you are Indian. Caitanya Mahāprabhu entrusted this mission to the Indians. Guest (1): At this time I think India also needs as much spiritual movement as anybody else in the world. Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (1): At this time I think India itself needs as much as spiritual needs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): We are as much backwards as anybody else in the world, probably more so. Prabhupāda: Because we have lost our original culture and we could not take the Western culture. So we are in the wilderness. Guest (1): Because here the average man takes more interest. Prabhupāda: Because they are fed up. Guest (1): Whereas in India the average man doesn't even take interest. Prabhupāda: No, he knows, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? We know it, now reject it." Guest (2): An average Indian, I think he will not be able to tell you how many chapters there are in the *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have never been taught. But still they are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: When we hold our meeting in India twenty thousand, thirty thousand people come still, because by nature they are inclined. By artificial means they are being subdued. And in every step I can feel-they are not openly saying*-the government is giving me trouble. They don't want this movement may go on nicely in India. Guest (2): But rules cannot be... Prabhupāda: No, that cannot be suppressed, that cannot be suppressed. Guest (2): ...cannot be subdued, even if this prime minister or Mahatma Gandhi, (indistinct) of Lord Kṛṣṇa and this and that. That is foolishness (indistinct). Balavanta: This is Dr. Fenton, Prabhupāda, he's a professor of religion at Emory University. Prabhupāda: Oh! Very good. Hm. (aside) What is the time now? Devotee: Its twenty of two. Prabhupāda: Time. Guest (1): Can we touch your feet, Swamiji? Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Guest (1): Can we please? Prabhupāda: Come... You can offer your obeisances. Hm, so that is the father's duty to see the child is grown completely spiritual, so that he may not have to come again in the mother's womb. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. So... Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (Indian guests leave and devotees offer obeisances.) I talk with the professor of religion sometimes, "What is the meaning of religion?" Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is that college you are employed? Professor Fenton: Emory University. Its about three miles from here. Prabhupāda: So, what definition you give to religion? Professor Fenton: It has to do with saving, something that binds societies together, it has to do with the supernatural of (indistinct) God. And hm... Sometimes... Prabhupāda: That there is relationship with God. Is it not? Religion has got relationship with God. Professor Fenton: Yes, but sometimes it's simply something that holds a society together. Both are religion. Sometimes religion is shameful, sometimes its man's highest glory. Prabhupāda: Hm... (aside) You come here, I could not follow him. Satsvarūpa: He says sometimes religion is shameful. Prabhupāda: Shame. Satsvarūpa: Shameful. Prabhupāda: What is that shameful? Satsvarūpa: Shameful, something a... Not good. Uh, disgraceful. Devotee (2): Ashamed. Satsvarūpa: There is a false religion and there's... Sometimes religion is the most glorious thing. Prabhupāda: Then there is no standard definition of religion. Sometimes this, sometimes that, like that. What is the definition...? Devotee: (indistinct) ...there seems to be no standard definition of religion sometimes its this and sometimes that. Isn't there something more definitive you could...? Professor Fenton: Oh no, the more I study it, the more it slips through my fingers. I've been teaching for fourteen years and still don't know what I'm teaching. Prabhupāda: Just like Christian religion, what it is teaching? Professor Fenton: Christian? It is the humanization of man, to trust in Lord Jesus Christ. Prabhupāda: Yes. And why trust Lord Jesus Christ? Professor Fenton: Because he is the root to reality, the truth. Prabhupāda: That means he's son of God, is it not? Professor Fenton: Yes, but I personally am not that orthodox. That is the orthodox teaching. Prabhupāda: Hm. Teaching must be orthodox, otherwise what is the value? If the teaching changes, that is not very good. Professor Fenton: Well, it may be that it changed in the early history of Christianity through Greek influence on its Jewish background. Prabhupāda: It is changing now also, they are so... Change is of the material world, in the spiritual world there is no change, absolute. In the relative world there is change. So our definition of religion is little different from the worldly definition. Our definition... "Our" means there should be the real definition: religion means the laws which are given by God. *Professor Fenton: Sanātana*-dharma. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Sanātana... Yes, religion should be sanātana. Sanātana means there cannot be any change. Just like every living being eats, you cannot change it. You cannot say that this living entity is not eating. Apart from human society, even in animal society, a living being eats. This is his religion. Sleeps, has sex, these are eternal characteristics. Similarly, religion means spiritual characteristics. That spiritual characteristic is also pervertedly reflected in the material world. Just like every one is servant. Anyone, any one of us, we are all servant. You are serving the University. He is serving the... Devotee: He is serving, serving. Prabhupāda: He is serving International Society. I am serving Kṛṣṇa, or he is serving Kṛṣṇa, like that. So everyone is serving, this is religion. To remain a servant. It does not mean that the Hindus are only servant, or Muslims are servant and Christians are not. Everyone is servant. Is it not a fact? Professor Fenton: I hope it is. Prabhupāda: That servitude or service has to be rendered to God. That is perfection of service. So that is religion. We are serving, I am serving this, you are serving that, you are serving... But when that service is rendered to God, Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect service, perfect, perfection aḥ... satisfaction, that is religion. According to Sanskrit dictionary or what is it called? The dictionary? Satsvarūpa: Sanskrit dictionary. *Prabhupāda: Religion, in Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa, God, is demanding that you surrender. This surrender business is of the servant. Just like I can say to my servant, "Just hear me what I say, do it." And he does it. That is servant. A servant cannot dictate, the master can dictate. Servant is to obey the dictation of the master. That is religion. When the servant obeys the dicta... (aside-indistinct) Hm. Take this picture, keep there. This picture, here, here. You come here. Take this vase down. Yes. We... God is great. God is great. Do you understand? God is great. Professor Fenton: Great. Prabhupāda: And we are subordinate. Is it not our position? Professor Fenton: Being servant, yes. Prabhupāda: This is our position. God is maintainer and we are maintained. God is predominator and we are predominated. This is our position. We are not equal to God, neither over God. We are always subordinate. And why you are subordinate? Because He maintains us. That is the difference between God and ourselves. He is the supreme being and we are subordinate being. We are maintained by God. That is Vedic instruction. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13) This is understanding of God. He is nitya, He's eternal, and we are also eternal because we are samples of God. God is great and perfect and in our this position we are subordinate, and in material condition we are imperfect. So even if we become perfect, still we remain subordinate. Therefore our position is always to abide by the orders of God. This is religion. When we abide by the orders of God, then we are religious. When we do not, then we are demons or Satan. (speaks with arriving guests in Hindi, inviting them to come in and asking whether they have been to the temple in Vṛndāvana) Religion means to remain faithful to God and abide by His order. That is religion. (end) Room Conversation with Tripuräri -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta Prabhupāda: You are well now for distributing books? Tripurāri: [break] ...these are prabhus from different temples. Some work under the direction of the temple presidents and some work under my direction. And all these devotees distribute at the airports. Mostly big books. Prabhupāda: And you are all feeling all right? Eh? Is there any difficulty? Tripurāri: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotees: Increasingly blissful. Prabhupāda: That is fine. That is wanted. You are expert mṛdaṅga player? I have seen. He is very, very nice. Tripurāri: Sometimes when we go to the temples they ask us to give class, saṅkīrtana class on book distribution techniques. We tell them that before you can take any techniques, first you must follow the principles and study the books. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real technique. Our only technique is to be very devout followers of the rules and regulation. Tripurāri: Sometimes the devotees, in their preaching, they will defeat someone. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Tripurāri: Sometimes we defeat someone by our preaching, and we show them they should take the book, but still they don't take. But if we call them a fool and point out to them how they are foolish, they become offended. So rather that we just very humbly say... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our... We know that he is a fool, but we have to present in a different way. We shall say that "There is nobody as learned as you are." In this way just make him puffed up, and then you say humbly, "My only humble request is that whatever you have learned, please forget. Now you try to understand Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all." This is the different way of calling him, that "Whatever you have learned, this is all rubbish." We simply say, "Kindly forget them. Now you turn your attention to Caitanya Mahāprabhu." This is the way Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī taught us. You flatter him, "Sir, I have got one request." Flatter him like anything, falling down on his leg and becoming humble and... "Sir, I have got one request." "What is that?" "You are very learned scholar. But kindly forget them, and you try to turn your attention to Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He will not be angry. Then, if he turns his attention to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then naturally he will forget all rubbish things. Devotee (1): We've been trying more and more, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to make our techniques of distribution more honest and straightforward, not to cheat so much as some of these methods in the past. *Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that Kṛṣṇa's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulation on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he never cheats. He never cheats. Whatever he does... Just like a mother says to his child, "My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo." The child is diseased. He will not be able to digest lugloo, but the mother sometimes cheats him. And when he takes the medicine the lugloo is not delivered. Similarly, sometimes we have to say so many things very pleasing to him, but our business is that let him take this medicine. That is tactics. But that is not cheating. If the mother helps the child in drinking medicine and then afterwards she does not supply the lugloo, that is not cheating. Some way or other... That is the instruction of Rūpa Gosvāmī, yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveṣayet: "Somehow or other, let everyone be Kṛṣṇa conscious." There is no question of vidhi*-niṣedhā. Sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ. The other rules and regulation will act as servant, but the main business is to bring one to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the main business. We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Kṛṣṇa consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we open up these new airports, because the authorities, they are not familiar with us, they become very demoniac towards us. And some of them actually, they're thinking about Kṛṣṇa all day... Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): They see us distributing, and they don't like what we're doing, they get very angry, but still, they're thinking of Kṛṣṇa all day. We often wondered how they are benefiting even though they maintain this very envious... Devotee (1): Just like the Mohammedans were benefited. Prabhupāda: They say, "Here is the Kṛṣṇa man." So he utters the name of Kṛṣṇa. That is good for him. Devotee (2): And then after a while, when they become our friends, then they may stop and listen to us. Prabhupāda: Yes, because he has chanted Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the Kṛṣṇa man. Here is the rascal Kṛṣṇa man." (laughter) Tripurāri: We found one policeman at the Atlanta airport was always harassing the devotees, trying to stop them. And one time I came down the stairs and I saw him in the corner reading *Īśopaniṣad* and trying to understand. They know that we have some knowledge; they are just envious of our success. They want to find out, "What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness about?" They don't want to admit that they want to know. Actually everyone wants to know about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. Tripurāri: You said that everyone is hankering for these books. Prabhupāda: So he read that *Īśopaniṣad*? Tripurāri: Yes. He tried to understand. Prabhupāda: Then? Tripurāri: Now he does not harass us so much now. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So we have to do like that. Here everyone is demon, everyone. Demon means they are busy for sense gratification. That is demon. And devotee means he has no sense gratification. He is only busy how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is the devotee. Anyway, if you serve Kṛṣṇa sincerely, Kṛṣṇa is with you. You will never fall in danger. *Tripurāri: Sometimes the devotees question, "What is the best book to distribute, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or Bhagavad-gītā?" We're thinking all of them are absolute. It does not matter. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is just like sugar doll. Anywhere touch*-it is sweet. That's all. When I read books, I open anywhere. Any book I take, and anywhere I open, and I read. *Devotee (3): Sometimes we feel like... I know myself personally, if I'm distributing, like, Second Volumes of Caitanya*-caritāmṛtas I have this doubt, this feeling that it's sometimes hard for me to understand Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and I feel like the karmī, he will open the book, and he will look into it, and he will become offended because he won't be able to understand hardly a word of it. *Prabhupāda: No, Caitanya*-caritāmṛta is not meant for ordinary person. Bhagavad-gītā, Īśopaniṣad and other thing... Tripurāri: Kṛṣṇa book? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. They will read as story book. The Kṛṣṇa trilogy is selling very nice? Tripurāri: Yes. *Nectar of Devotion* also. Prabhupāda: *Nectar of Devotion* is very nice. *Devotee (1): And Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatams. They are very attracted to the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tripurāri: Many of the karmīs appreciate the Fourth Canto, part four, the story of King Purañjana. They understand that. Devotee (2): There's many psychologists at the airport. I would attract them by giving them that particular volume and saying how this deals with the psychology of the conditioned self. And they were attracted in that way. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very nice, Purañjana. His city, his gates, various manifestation. Devotee (4): Sometimes we are very encouraged because we find people, they come back to us. They say, "I have gotten this volume, and I'd like to have the first part" or "I'd like to have the Second Canto." I found that in the army base among the soldiers... I went to distribute at an army base with the soldiers. And one man saw me, and he came up, and he says, "Can I have the Second Canto? I liked the first one so much." It's enlivening for us. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they come and demand. Tripurāri: More books, yes. Prabhupāda: That is good. *Devotee (1): Sometimes they want three or four or five at a time. (Prabhupāda chuckles) One boy... Cārudeṣṇa Prabhu and I were distributing to him. First he distributed one to him. Then I saw he was coming and I approached him again, the same, five minutes later. I said, "Didn't you get the story book, Kṛṣṇa book? You got the philosophy book, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Now take the story book, Kṛṣṇa." And he took Kṛṣṇa book, and then Cārudeṣṇa came up and distributed two more books to him. Prabhupāda: So when they take Kṛṣṇa trilogy they take set, three? Tripurāri: Usually one, just one. Prabhupāda: It is closed, this? Drafty. Śrutakīrti: Yes, it's closed but it's drafty. Tripurāri: [break] So when we give them big books, we also give them one Back to Godhead magazine to help them understand. We say, "Read the magazine first. Come to one of our centers when you have questions." So that way we are distributing many big books and many Back to Godhead magazines also at the same time. Devotee (3): Sometimes we also, I know myself, ask them... We open the page, the front cover, and show 'em the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and say, "If you simply chant this mantra, you will be able to understand these books in a much higher way." Actually, it's helped. Prabhupāda: That is fact. His heart becomes cleansed to take up. Devotee (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes we turn the book over, like the Kṛṣṇa book, and we show them your picture, and we say, "This is our teacher." And they say, "Oh, boy, you've got a very..." They like your picture. Devotee (1): They even say, "I've seen him before." Prabhupāda: Where they have seen me? Somewhere. (chuckles) Devotee (6): All the employees in the Atlanta airport, now they all know you. They've all seen your books, and they've seen your picture. And when we go through the check points they say, "Oh, we saw him. We saw him come through. We saw your spiritual master come through the airport." Devotee (7): There was one lady when you were here the last time at the airport, she would ask, when we saw the woman at the airport, practically every day, "When is that nice gentleman going to come back to Atlanta?" And she's always thinking about you. [break] Prabhupāda: ...that (sic:) Kenneth Keat? Bring that letter. He wrote to Gurudāsa? Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: (sic:) Kenneth Keat was ambassador in India. So Gurudāsa met him. Now he is ambassador in Israel. So he has written that "You are all doing very nice work." People appreciate, any intelligent man. Devotee (1): For one period of two or three days we were going to the airport and simply... This was during the whole controversy about the cheating and the honesty and..., that controversy. So we just went and we just started preaching. And we actually didn't find that much of a diminution in the sales of the literatures. In fact one time a couple of us went out in dhotīs even to the airport, without wigs or anything, for a weekend. And we still did nicely. It was a little more difficult. They weren't so... Some of them weren't as warm. But we find that the businessmen, they can be convinced by just preaching. Prabhupāda: Read it. Śrutakīrti: "Dear Gurudāsa, Thank you for your letter of January 2nd and for your continued prayers for me in my work. As you perhaps do not know, I am now ambassador to Israel. I have been in the United States for a couple of weeks but have not been able to arrange for any free time in which I could meet with you and have not been on the West Coast or at any point except Washington and New York. I hope it may be possible at some future time for us to get together, since, as you know, I have great respect for you and your associates who serve the Lord according to your faith and perform many good deeds in these hectic days. Warm personal regards. Sincerely, Kenneth Keating." Prabhupāda: So any sane man will appreciate our activities. We are doing simply to turn people's attention towards God, that's all. That will make him happy. *Sudāsa(?): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's been several places in the First Canto of Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you say how we have to get the class of men, how if the leaders take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness then... Prabhupāda: Others will follow. *Devotee: The mass will follow. Some other times I've heard you say, like the other day, that the masses of people... When Balavanta Prabhu was running for office you were saying that it'd be very difficult to get our present*-day leaders to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I'd just like to try to understand further, whether it is the masses or the leaders? Prabhupāda: No, we are dealing generally with the masses. But if we can convert one leader, then it is equal to turning many people in the mass. That is the idea. Some way or other, we are doing Kṛṣṇa's service. Either you serve the mass or the leader, it doesn't matter. Your service is recognized. Tripurāri: Sometimes the devotees question, if they were pure, then they could get everyone to take a big book. It's simply our fault that we're not pure enough that we can't get everyone to take a big book. Or is it just that we can't engage everyone, we can't get everyone to surrender completely? Prabhupāda: Well, that is also a devotional attitude. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that "I do not love Kṛṣṇa. So that's... And if I would have loved, then I would have died without His presence. But I am living now. Therefore I have no love for Kṛṣṇa." This is another thing. One who is too much addicted to the service of Kṛṣṇa, that is very good sign. So your headquarter is now Pittsburg? Tripurāri: No, now Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Philadelphia, oh. Tripurāri: It's in Rūpānuga's zone. Prabhupāda: In the Philadelphia University, I think, there was one Mr. Norman Brown. Rūpānuga: The Temple University. Prabhupāda: Not Temple, Philadelphia. Rūpānuga: Temple's in Philadelphia. Devotee (5): There's one called University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, too. Rūpānuga: The one who took your *Nectar of Devotion*? Prabhupāda: No, that is Temple University. There is another university, I think Pittsburg University. Devotee (5): The University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee (4): They call it Penn. Prabhupāda: That university, there is one professor, Norman Brown. I met him. He was a very nice gentleman. He carried my bags to the bus station. He was very kind. His father was a clergyman in India, so he was born in India. So he has got good respect for Indian culture. Rūpānuga: Is that when you went to speak in Philadelphia? Prabhupāda: Um hm. Rūpānuga: Then that was when Nikhilānanda was there. Didn't you speak in his class? Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda was in New York. Rūpānuga: At that time. Prabhupāda: He is now dead? Rūpānuga: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda was working with Dr. Bose, Bose's laboratory, and before my joining, it was disclosed that I was also... Dr. Bose had one department. He was in charge. Tripurāri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you first began to distribute Back to Godhead magazine by yourself, right, in India? You would go to the shops? Prabhupāda: That was second stage. The first stage I used to publish and distribute as gṛhastha, I did not mind whether one page or not. I was distributing. So spending about four hundred, five hundred rupees, I did not care if one page or not, but I'll distribute. Then, when I retired, left home, I was publishing and distributing myself to get subscription. The subscription was very cheap, two rupees, four annas, I think, for the year. Two copies per month. Just like you published The Harmonist? Like that. Then I published *Bhāgavatam*. So I was going to libraries, school, colleges, and everyone was purchasing. My Bhāgavata was being purchased by your Congress Library. In Delhi they have got office. So there was standing order, eighteen copies of my book as soon as they are published. The head librarian in India, New Delhi, he gave me standing order. Dallas is very cold? No. Like this. Tripurāri: Dallas is warm. Prabhupāda: Warm, oh. Tripurāri: Probably warmer than here. Prabhupāda: New York is cold. Tripurāri: Yes. Now in New York they're distributing 100,000 Back to Godheads every month, New York temple. And you saw the lugloo from New York? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Which lugloo? Tripurāri: They are making in New York lugloos and packaging them, distributing them on the streets with Back to Godhead magazine. Many people come back for more. They like the taste. Prabhupāda: And for each lugloo there is magazine? No. Tripurāri: Pardon? Prabhupāda: If anyone wants lugloo, then he have to take one magazine? No. (laughter) One lugloo presentation for one magazine. Devotee (4): We were thinking about how everyone knows about Kṛṣṇa now. In the United States they didn't know before, but when they see this little picture on the book, they all know, "That is Kṛṣṇa." We hand them the book, and we say, "We're passing these out." They say, "Oh, that is Kṛṣṇa." So it's so successful that everyone has learned about Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh, as soon as they see the picture, they understand it is Kṛṣṇa. Tripurāri: They see the picture of Kṛṣṇa or the name and they think of the devotees chanting. Prabhupāda: Oh, by seeing you. Tripurāri: No, when they see the book they think, "Oh, the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees. I saw them on the street." When they see the picture of Kṛṣṇa on the book, they think of the devotees chanting. Devotee (1): Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, people travel from one airport to another, and they'll get a book in Chicago and then they'll come to Atlanta and we'll approach them to give them another book, and they've already gotten one book in Chicago. And they ask, "How many of there are you around the world?" Because everywhere they go, in every airport they are getting books. So they think that there must be millions. They think that there must be millions of Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees, because everywhere they go they're being approached to take a book. Rūpānuga: I once asked a boy in Washington temple how many devotees he thought we had, and he said, "Oh, I cannot guess." And I said, "Make an educated guess." And he said, "Well, I've seen you here and I think maybe two million." (laughter) And I said, "Three thousand. Now just see the potency of Hare Kṛṣṇa. You're thinking we're two million, and we're simply a handful." He became a little convinced. So our books make us millions. People think we are millions because of the books. Prabhupāda: Push on this. Then our movement is successful. All Americans should have at least one set of book. That is not very difficult for them, to purchase one set book. But it will be a good asset for them if they keep and see sometimes. Any line he reads, he will get transcendental knowledge. Devotee (1): There is one very wealthy man in Atlanta who... We went and did a nice presentation at his home. And then afterwards we distributed prasādam and had a nice bhajana, kīrtanas. Then afterwards he bought the whole set of literatures and gave a hundred dollar donation for all of the literatures, and he has them now. Prabhupāda: Yes. For an American gentleman one hundred dollars is nothing. *Devotee (3): One nice boy in the airport, he was a soldier boy. He had, like read a Kṛṣṇa trilogy, and he was coming through the airport, and I approached him. And he immediately saw the books, and he immediately wanted one. And I didn't even have to ask him for the donation. Automatically he gave $20. And then I was walking down the hall, and I saw him again, and he came running up to me again, and he said, "Here, you're doing such a wonderful thing. Let me give you another $20." And somebody walked by as I was giving him another book, and they said, "Don't take that book. It's a rip*-off. These people are trying to rip you off." And he said, "They don't know what they're talking about. They don't understand." And then, after that, he walked up to Cārudeṣṇa Prabhu and gave him another $40. So actually he gave something like $65 or $70 in the airport just because he had read one trilogy. Devotee (5): Just like in the Kṛṣṇa book it says anyone who reads this, he will become a devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Anyone who reads that book, he will become Vaiṣṇava. Devotee (5): And a year ago in a mall in Pittsburg, because I stay at the Pittsburg temple, I gave a big Kṛṣṇa book to a... Prabhupāda: George has become? Tripurāri: Pardon? Prabhupāda: George, George Harrison. Tripurāri: George Harrison? Prabhupāda: He has become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Tripurāri: He has? Devotee (1): He's living in the temple? Prabhupāda: No. He, not temple, but he chants always. He is keeping one Jagannātha within the bead. He showed me: that "I have put..." He saw me in Vṛndāvana. Devotee (8): We use his name quite a bit to distribute books. A lot of people take books because of his name. We often wonder what he was actually doing as far as the movement was concerned. Prabhupāda: He has got his foreword in the Kṛṣṇa book. Devotee (1): Now each one, the foreword is there, in every volume. So we always show them that and they're very impressed, especially hippies and students, college students. Devotee (5): Just like Kṛṣṇa says. What the big men do, the common men follow. Prabhupāda: He gave me first money for publishing Kṛṣṇa book, $19,000. He is a good boy. He is a good boy, and he has got good regard for me. Devotee (3): He just recently went on a concert tour around the country, and he was having the young people chant Kṛṣṇa's names in the concert. And because of the concert tour, many, many, many books were distributed, unlimited. Prabhupāda: Oh, his song, "Kṛṣṇa..." I have forgotten that. That record? Tripurāri: Yes. And he went on a tour of the United States, playing at different cities, concerts, and he would ask people in the audience to chant, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: He was asking? Tripurāri: Yes. Devotee (1): And wherever he would go the devotees would be there with prasāda and literatures, distributing profusely. Very successful. Sometimes it seems that Kṛṣṇa is arranging these concerts simply so young people can come together so we can be there to reach many, many thousands at one time. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is all*-attractive. Tripurāri: But we have no attraction for Kṛṣṇa. You are attracting us to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Actually Kṛṣṇa is attracting. One, what is called, touchstone, no? Magnetic stone? Tripurāri: Yes, magnet. Prabhupāda: So background, magnetic stone, one iron, and then another iron, another iron. It is all attracted. Devotee (5): We are becoming happy by distributing your books. Prabhupāda: Thank you. It is Kṛṣṇa's book. You have got that cake? Give them. Devotee (5): I was going to say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was talking, and I gave a family a big..., a husband and a wife, a big Kṛṣṇa book. The husband took the Kṛṣṇa book. The wife was indifferent. A year later the wife read the Kṛṣṇa book and left her husband and joined the temple, just from reading the one book. And I was very enlivened by this. When you can see the results like that, you become enlivened. *Tripurāri: Just by distributing your books we can become self*-realized. *Prabhupāda: You are already self*-realized. Otherwise how you can push on the books? You love Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are taking so much labor for pushing on. And that is self-realization. If anyone tries to establish that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, that is self-realization. Tripurāri: Sometimes the devotees ask if they can take birth again distributing books for you. Prabhupāda: Very good. That is real devotion. A devotee does not want to go to Vaikuṇṭha or any liberation. They are satisfied with the service. That is pure devotion. And distributing books for the benefit of going to Kṛṣṇa, that is selfishness. But "I want to simply distribute the books without any remuneration, without any my personal..." that is pure devotee. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja says that "I do not wish to go to Vaikuṇṭha unless I take all of these rascals with me." That is pure devotee. Pure devotion does not mean to... He is always under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. What is the use of going Vaikuṇṭha or...? Wherever he stays, that is Vaikuṇṭha. That is pure devotional service. Mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī: [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] "Life after life I may go on with this business. I don't want anything." That is pure devotion. (About cake:) So distribute. *Devotee (5): When a new book comes we're very happy. We read it, and then, when we read it, we become enlivened to distribute it. And sometimes we read one like the Bhagavad*-gītā or one new Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and then we'll concentrate on that book because it has made us so happy. *Prabhupāda: You have read Caitanya*-caritāmṛta? *Tripurāri: Yes. We study Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam in the morning and Bhagavad-gītā in the evening. Then in the day we read Nectar of Devotion, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and Kṛṣṇa book at night. All the devotees are reading... Prabhupāda: It never becomes old. Tripurāri: No. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Devotee (9): Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when we give someone a book we tell them that there's eighty volumes, and they... They just... They're amazed that there's so many books. Devotee (5): Sometimes they'll say, "I already have a book." Then you show them another book. "I've got that one." Then you show them another book. "Well, I've got that one too." Then you say, "Oh, come over here. Let me show you the new one. This just came out." (laughter) Śrutakīrti: This is this boy's son. Prabhupāda: Oh, your son? Devotee (10): Yes, Prabhupāda. He's going to go to Gurukula this summer. Prabhupāda: Very good. How old he is? Boy: Ten. Prabhupāda: Hm? How many? Devotee (10): Ten years old. Prabhupāda: Ten years. And how old you are? *Devotee (10): Twenty*-seven. *Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Sometimes young father and children, we say jokingly, bap beta dui bhāi: "Father and son, two brothers." Bap beta dui bhāi. In India there are many fathers*-the father and son age difference, sixteen years, seventeen years. And mother and son, twelve years, thirteen years. There are many mothers. You have got one son? Devotee (10): I have a daughter also. Prabhupāda: Oh. Younger than him? Devotee (10): Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Balavanta: These are some things that some guests wanted me to give to you. One made a hat for you. Prabhupāda: What is this? Cap? Balavanta: This is a hat that one of the guests made for you. A temple guest. And they painted this picture. Prabhupāda: Pencil? This is pencil? Balavanta: Pencil or watercolor. I think it's watercolors. (pause) Prabhupāda: So you want to take again election? (chuckles) No. Balavanta: Not if you don't want to, Prabhupāda. I was just thinking it was an opportunity to preach if you want it. But if you're not very enthusiastic about it, I don't want to do it. Prabhupāda: No, I am enthusiastic provided you don't want money. Balavanta: I think we can get our own... I can get the money. It doesn't have to cost very much. The only thing we would need is maybe two men to help. And we can... It won't cost... Only for two or three months out of the year. Prabhupāda: Then you can do it. It makes you well known in the city. And you get the opportunity of criticizing the demons. (laughter) That is... Satsvarūpa: This boy is Bhakta Doug, and he was a personal secretary of Maharishi for two years. Prabhupāda: Oh. Satsvarūpa: He traveled all over with him. And one day... He was a very good student, and one day Maharishi said, "If you really want to know the highest truth, it's Kṛṣṇa consciousness." And then he left and he came and joined our tem... (laughter) Prabhupāda: Maharishi said like that? Doug: Yes, he did say that. It took me awhile to make the transition, but with Kṛṣṇa's mercy, I saw the way through to become Kṛṣṇa... Devotee (5): Maharishi must have read one of your books, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: He has read my books? Devotee (5): He must have, if he said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest truth. How else could he know but reading your books? Devotee (3): One time we were in Orlando, Florida, at the Kundalini Yoga festival. And they had Yogi Bhajan there. And he came out and we had a chant, and we had prasādam, and we had BTG's, and we distributed some BTG's. And he took a BTG and gave a dollar donation, and he patted us on the head and said, "You boys keep chanting the holy names of God." *Balavanta: That Guru Maharaj*-ji, that little fat boy? So he told his disciples that if you want to learn, you should go to the Hare Kṛṣṇa temple and learn pūjā. He said, "They know how to worship." But then they go and worship him. But he told them that only your disciples know how to pūjā. Tripurāri: They are just imitating the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tripurāri: No other group distributes literatures, though. Prabhupāda: Hm? *Tripurāri: No other group, no other societies of philosophy distributes literatures. Guru Maharaj*-ji, they published one magazine for some time, and his devotees, they went out and distributed short time. But they had no taste for continuing the distribution. So they have stopped now. Prabhupāda: Artificial. Tripurāri: Yes. Prabhupāda: So he is still making propaganda? No. *Balavanta: Who, Guru Maharaj*-ji? Not so much. You don't hear about them. There's not much activity. Devotee (5): Decreasing. We are increasing, and they are decreasing. Tripurāri: Sometimes the Christians are distributing papers still at the airports. We invite them to come and take prasāda with us every day. Prabhupāda: They come? Tripurāri: They are reluctant. Some, one or two, come. Devotee (2): Every once in awhile someone we meet when we're distributing books comes and joins us for prasādam, one time a businessman and one time a soldier. Various people sometimes join us. We take a 12 o'clock, 12:30 lunch break. Sometimes we'll be joined by one of these people we distribute books to. Prabhupāda: When you were with Maharishi? Come here. *Doug: I joined the Maharishi in 1969, and at that time I was living in Washington, D.C. And his national director came, gave a lecture, and they said that they needed some help because they didn't have a center there. So I organized the movement out of my parents' house. I had the center, and I established lectures at all the colleges and started the movement there. And later on, they finally sent some full*-time teachers, and they established a center there. And then I started to be with Maharishi and his different courses and doing extensive meditations for long periods of time. And then eventually he formed a committee. This was in 1971-72. He started to form a college called M.I.U., Maharishi International University. And he started to invite educators, and he wanted to... And he also had this... Prabhupāda: "M.I.U." means Maharishi...? Doug: Maharishi International University. And so he started to formulate a curriculum. He was trying to present Vedic studies in Western terms. And so he formed this council of the executive called his executive council. It was called The 108. It didn't have 108 people, but this was what he called us. Prabhupāda: One hundred...? Doug: The 108. He called it The 108, but the official term was the executive council. And that's what I was with... Prabhupāda: How many students are there? Doug: How many students do his meditation? Prabhupāda: No, the university? *Doug: In the university? I haven't been with them in a year and a half, but they recently bought a college, and they have part of a college in Santa Barbara, the University of California there. So they're pretty well established educationally. But it's losing its potency actually. I think it's actually reached its peak and left, because when I was with Maharishi also I noticed that it seemed that a lot of his potency seemed to diminish, his charisma, over the years. Seemed to me he'd get more and more depressed if people weren't actually reaching the states that he was talking of. It didn't seem like he was satisfied with the advancement people were making. And certainly he wasn't answering the questions, because all that time I was asking him "What is the highest truth." And when he talked to God I would say, "Who is God?" And we'd ask him, "Who is Kṛṣṇa?" and "What about this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement?" And it was word jugglery. He'd kind of evade our questions and satisfy our elan, but... those questions kept coming up. Somehow he kept us from going into too much detail about it. But eventually... I didn't see him for a few days. This was when I was in the mountains with him, some other people. And we were making up these curriculums for this college program. And he was doing some transcriptions on the Brahma*-sūtras, and he came out, and he was in a very solemn mood, and he said... We asked him what he had realized, what truths he had realized from the Brahma-sutras. And he said, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the highest state of consciousness." So I left shortly after that. I feel that I could have been chanting all those years, making some progress. Prabhupāda: What is his age? Doug: What is my age? Prabhupāda: No, his age. *Doug: His age? He's sixty*-eight. Prabhupāda: Old man. *Tripurāri: He translated Bhagavad*-gītā, but only six chapters. *Doug: Actually, it's interesting about that, because he finished the whole Bhagavad*-gītā, and he put out these first six chapters in a really a boggling word, way, the first six chapters. He was writing in a way that people could still enjoy material sense enjoyment and still do his technique of meditation. But I had a chance to hear the rest of the Bhagavad-gītā that he had translated. And we asked him... We heard that he had it. We asked him why he didn't put it out, and he said that the people of the Western world weren't ready to hear what he had to present. But actually what he had to say was... It's very authentic. What I read was very close with what you have to say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Kṛṣṇa says surrender all your senses unto Him. And I have hopes that maybe someday... Balavanta suggested the idea that I should write him a letter and ask him to have a meeting with you. And maybe some conciliation could be made, and maybe he could come to his senses or something that he could propagate this Kṛṣṇa consciousness also, because he has so many followers. And I think that there must be some sincerity in him, else I wouldn't have spent so long with him. He must have some sincerity. And I think that he obviously feels that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, and I noticed that on his pūjā table he always had a picture of Kṛṣṇa protecting the cows. Prabhupāda: Instead of asking him to preach, you preach. He has already enunciated a type of formula, and it is very difficult for him to change it. He does not say that he is Bhagavān? Doug: No, he does not say he is God. Prabhupāda: That is good. Doug: He always talked in terms of higher states of consciousness, in terms of cosmic consciousness, which I understand to be Brahman realization. Then he talked in terms of, after about the sixth state of consciousness was then God consciousness. And then Paramātmā. Then he talked of the highest state of consciousness, and he said it's Bhagavān realization. But he completely steers away from putting any type of limitation on people's sense control at all, and this is what I have a hard time understanding. Even though the more I was with him he suggested to his close associates to follow the principles of brahmacārī, and he made me one of his brahmacārīs, and he told us to read the scriptures every day, and we had a lot of association... Prabhupāda: What is his personal character? Doug: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: He is observing celibacy or... *Doug: As far as I'm concerned he's been celibate for an awful long time. And he had, his master... He comes from the Śaṅkarācārya tradition. His master was the last Śaṅkarācārya. And supposedly his master is a life*-long celibate. So as far as I know, he always practiced that. Some other rumors have come up somewhere. I heard that the rumors originally originated with the Beatles when they were in India, that there was something going on like that. But as far as I know and anybody else who had been involved with him knew that he was very strict about that. And he encouraged the, me to meet... Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī. Doug: What was that? Balavanta: Brahmacārī. Doug: Brahmacārī. Prabhupāda: Celibacy. Does he observe? Doug: Yes, as far as I know. Rūpānuga: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu told me that he has a doctorate degree in some science. Doug: Physics. Rūpānuga: Physics, a doctorate in physics. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Balavanta: He has a degree, a Ph.D. in physics. Doug: I don't think it's a Ph.D. I think it's just a masters degree. Prabhupāda: In physics. Doug: His master told him to finish school before he could join up with him. Prabhupāda: He talks science about? No. Doug: He does talk science, yeah. He tries to present Vedic ideas in scientific terms, so that the people of the West will understand. So originally he came out talking about God consciousness and so forth, but eventually he got more and more into this course he calls the science of creative intelligence, SCI, which is what he... (end) Morning Walk -- March 4, 1975, Dallas *Prabhupāda: ...and standing naked, that those who are fond of nudie*-ism, they can get in next life. "All right, you stand naked for many years." This is the punishment. Human society, naked, that is their punishment. Jayatīrtha: And during the winter they even lose their leaves... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: During the winter, when it's coldest, they lose their leaves. Prabhupāda: The trees are taken to be the most tolerant. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. There is an extreme example of tolerance, this tree life. Dayānanda: In one of the purports in *Bhāgavatam* you mention that first comes humility, then nonviolence and then tolerance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dayānanda: Is it also mentioned that in other places in our śāstra? *Prabhupāda: There are many places. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...is given for practicing God consciousness, and they have become advanced civilized, they are cultivating nudie*-ism. Is it not? Nudie-ism. So the punishment is that "All right, you become nudie, you remain standing in one place, for five thousand years." (laughter) That is right. The trees live up till five thousand years. They live. Viṣṇujana: Prabhupāda? But they argue that if God wanted us to wear clothes He would have made us with clothes. But He made us without clothes, so... Prabhupāda: The thing is that here material world means that whatever you want, you have to work for it. That is material world. Things are there, but you have to work for it. In the spiritual world there is no need of working. You get all necessities. That is the difference. Viṣṇujana: Yeah, we could say, "If God wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food too." (laughter) Prabhupāda: Huh? Viṣṇujana: They say, "If God wanted us to have clothes, that He would have made us with clothes." So if He wanted you to have food, then He would have made you with food. Why do you have to go out and get your food? Similarly, you have to go out and get your clothes. *Prabhupāda: No, this is called... What is the definition in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa? Avidyā*-karma-samjñānyā tṛtīya śaktir iṣyate. Avidyā... Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Do they not say like that? Devotee: That's what they say. Prabhupāda: "Poor Christ, he has to suffer for all the sinful activities, and he wanted to save us from sin, gave his injunction. That we shall not care." This is Christian religion. And therefore they have to close down this hypocrisy. [break] That Melbourne meeting, some of you were with me? No. In Melbourne I was invited by some, many priests. Twice I was invited. The first meeting I am speaking. So there was a good meeting, all respectable priests. So they asked me that "Why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" So I asked them that "What you have not done?" (laughter) So they were not very much pleased. But I, in the open meeting, I said, "What you have not done? You have done all sinful activities. Therefore you have to close down this hypocrisy now." That was my answer, "What you have not done?" Now they are sorry, "What we have done?" That is called ignorance. They have done everything all sinful. They do not know that is sinful. [break] ...Bible, "Thou shall not kill," and they will not obey. That is sinful. Everything is there clearly, Ten Commandments, but they will not do that. Willful sinners. One may act sinfully, unaware. But they are willfully sinners. They know this is sin, and still they are doing. Devotee: But they don't think it is sin, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: They don't think it is sin. Prabhupāda: Why? Viṣṇujana: They say that... Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. Viṣṇujana: Yeah, that's the problem. Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. Viṣṇujana: They want to gratify their senses, and they'll do anything and even misinterpret the scripture to gratify their senses. Prabhupāda: That means a set of rascals, going on in the name of religion. So how long they can cheat others? So you can cheat all for some time, and you can cheat some for all time, but not all for all time. (laughter) Devotee: Is it all right to... You mentioned that to work hard is like... Because we're in the material world we have to work, this is the condemnation... Prabhupāda: No, no. You have to work, but minimize work. Devotee: I was wondering if it was all right to work hard for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. To minimize this material work means the energy should be employed for Kṛṣṇa. Minimize work this, means this side, material side. And save time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the principle. And if you are busy from the early morning to go to the working place and up to ten o'clock, then where you get for chanting, time? So therefore you save time from material activities and engage it for advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is life. Rāmeśvara: But the Communists, they also argue that this Christian religion is hypocrisy. It has not brought peace on earth. So they also want to abolish it. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Rāmeśvara: They also want to abolish religion, this Christian religion, and just have a... *Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. They have got bad experience from this so*-called Christian religion, and they have no information that there is need of religion. Therefore they want to abolish. Everyone has got bad experience, and they are a little forward, that "Finish it." That's it. Rāmeśvara: They say that the problems of the world are so great that unless people have allegiance to one world government, they will not be able to be solved. Prabhupāda: That we say, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme governor... Rāmeśvara: Jaya. Prabhupāda: ...and take shelter of Him. Then everything will be solved. That we are preaching. Rāmeśvara: They have missed that point. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Ekala īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya. "Only master is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is servant." Accept this principle and everything will be all right immediately. Immediately. If you study the whole Bhagavad*-gītā, where is any word there which you can refute or which is not good for you? Study whole Bhagavad-gītā. All practical and very congenial for human civilization. Kṛṣṇa teaches from the very beginning, "First of all learn what you are. You are not this body. You are within this body." Now, who knows this? This is the first study. As soon as you understand that "I am not this body, I am within this body," immediate you understand what is spirit. Then your spiritual knowledge advances further. But these rascals, they do not know what is spirit, what is spiritual knowledge. Devotee: They think that cows don't have a spirit. Prabhupāda: They may think like anything, rascal. Do you believe that? Devotee: Yes, they have spirit... Prabhupāda: No, you believe it or not? They say, but whether you believe it or not? Devotee: The spirit soul makes the body work. That's evidence that the spirit's inside. Prabhupāda: Yes, how you can say there is no spirit? You have got spirit. Your body is moving. You are walking. You are eating. You are talking. And as soon as the spirit is gone, then it is dead matter, bulk. The hand is there; it will not work. The leg is there; it will not work. So where is the difference between the cow's body and your body? Come to human reasoning. You say there is no spirit, so how you say? Where is the difference between your body and cow's body? Jayatīrtha: They say that the cow has no soul. Therefore we can eat the cow. But now they say that the man has no soul, so the conclusion is... Prabhupāda: Huh? Jayatīrtha: Previously they said the cow has no soul, so therefore we can eat the cow. But now they say that man has no soul. *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore kill in the womb. That is killing, the abortion, killing. That means advance of... advancement of ignorance is accepted as advancement of civilization. Why? The beginning is that there is no spiritual knowledge. Therefore the so*-called advancement of ignorance is accepted as advancement of civilization. That is due to want of that basic principle of spiritual knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees chant japa) [break] *Bhakta*-rūpa: Perhaps that man thinks he has retired from working hard. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Bhakta*-rūpa: Perhaps that man thinks he has retired from working hard. But still he is performing so many activities, material activities. *Prabhupāda: Hmm. What can he do? He has no other engagement. (laughter) He doesn't know that there is another engagement, spiritual life. He doesn't know. Ignorant. Karma*-samjñā. That I was discussing, this ignorance. He thinks working is life, that's all. Hard work. Jagadīśa: Now he's working hard to put a ball in the hole. Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows, "This is life." There is no other alternative. That is his ignorance. He cannot do it. Still, he is doing. You see? You know that when there was electric failure in New York? The statistics is that more women became pregnant. (laughter) But what they will do in the darkness? "Let us have sex." That's all. (laughter) [break] Devotee: At the Māyāpur festival the older Gurukula boys are coming. Dvārakādhīśa and Ekendra, they're all coming. How many, about twelve? Jayatīrtha: No. Devotee: How many? Jayatīrtha: Four. Paramahaṁsa: Four. All four of them are coming. (laughter) (end) Interview -- March 5, 1975, New York Prabhupāda: What is the question? Any question? Or shall we speak? Reporter: Swamiji, can you please? Yes, please. Can you tell us what your purpose is in coming to New York at this time? Prabhupāda: To New York, I am coming here since 1965. I have got my temple. So I am going to London. So it is for the time being, transit stoppage. Otherwise I have got my temple here. Female Reporter: What special message would you have for people who don't know anything about your movement and would like to know something about it? Prabhupāda: About the movement? Śrutakīrti: Yes, what special message for the people who don't know about us? Prabhupāda: It is a little difficult to understand this movement, because it is spiritual movement. People practically have no information what is spirit and what is spiritual movement, but they can simply understand that the body is there. Body is the machine. And the driver of the machine is the spirit soul. So we are beginning our movement from that platform, the driver of the machine. People are very much engrossed with the machine only, but they have no information who is driving the machine. That is the difficulty. Reporter: Swamiji, your movement has received a great deal of attention for, at least one reason, because many of your followers dress in what for the West is an odd fashion and relate to the world in what for the West is an odd fashion. Can you respond to that? Why have you asked your followers to dress in this fashion and to play drums on the streets? Prabhupāda: This is our preaching method, some way or other to draw their attention. (laughter) Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Reporter: I'm sure that you're aware that to many people in the West, in America, in New York City specifically, that your disciples seem strange because of the way they act on the streets. What about that? Prabhupāda: Yes, they must be strange because they are spiritual. You are all material. (laughter) So, for the material persons, we are surely strange people. Reporter: Is this manifestation the only way to be spiritual, dressing in this fashion? *Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot compete with us. Because we don't have any illicit sex, we don't have meat*-eating, we have no intoxication, we have no gambling. There's so many no's which you are unable to perform. Reporter: Swami, that wasn't my question. My question was, is this manifestation, dressing in this fashion, playing drums and dancing in the streets, the only way to be spiritual? Prabhupāda: No, we have got about sixty books. If you want to learn this movement through science and philosophy, we have got our books. You have not seen our books? (laughter) Reporter: Swami, that isn't the thrust of my question. Yes, I have. The thrust of my question very simply is this: Can't people be spiritual without dressing in this fashion and dancing in the street? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes, you can become spiritual in your this dress. Simply you have to learn what it is from the books. The dress... dress is not very important thing, but still, in the material field, this girl is dressed in a different way, you are dressed in a different way. Reporter: The way we dress lets us move in all circles. Prabhupāda;: No, the thing is, dress is not very important. Reporter: But you have your disciples dress in this way... Prabhupāda: But just to draw a particular... Just like the policeman, he is differently dressed. One can understand that he is policeman. Similarly, we are also differently dressed so that people may understand we are Hare Kṛṣṇa people. Devotees: Jaya! Haribol! Female Reporter: Swami, I saw a television program about your movement once, and they said that the men make the decisions and the women follow. Is that true? Prabhupāda: I do not follow. Śrutakīrti: She hears that the men make the decisions and that the women follow these decisions. Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. We follow the decision of Kṛṣṇa, men and women both. We follow the decision of Kṛṣṇa. That is applicable both men and women. Reporter: Are men superior in your movement, though? Prabhupāda: Hm? Reporter: Are men regarded as superior to women? Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Naturally, woman requires protection by the man. In the childhood she is protected by the father, and youth time she is protected by the husband, and old age she is protected by elderly sons. That is natural. Female Reporter: That goes against the thinking of a lot of people in America now. Do you know that? Prabhupāda: No... America, maybe, but this is the natural position. Women require protection. Female Reporter: Who decides who's natural? And what's natural? *Prabhupāda: Natural means just like in psychology it is said that woman, the highest brain substance of woman is thirty*-six ounce, whereas the highest brain substance of man is sixty-four ounce. So there is difference by nature, of the brain. Female Reporter: Well (laughter), to get to something else, what do you do for fun when you're in New York? Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? I... Śrutakīrti: You have defeated her. Prabhupāda: Huh? Female Reporter: (laughs) But I'm not going to pursue your line of logic. And what do you do for fun? Prabhupāda: No, that is natural defeat. You cannot avoid it. (laughter) Female Reporter: I can't what? Devotee: You cannot avoid it. Female Reporter: Again, what do you do to have a good time in New York? *Prabhupāda: A sixteen*-years-old boy can travel all over the world, and it is very difficult for a sixteen-years-old girl to travel all over the world. (pause) Reporter: Thank you, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Haribol! [break] Reporter: Have you realized the highest truth yourself? Prabhupāda: Certainly. Reporter: You have? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: At what age did you realize God? Prabhupāda: I can deliver to you also. Reporter: Pardon me? Prabhupāda: I can deliver to you also if you want. Reporter: My question to you is at what age did you realize God? Prabhupāda: God is a person like you and me. The difference is that we are also persons. We are many, and God is one, leader. Now, what is the difference between this one and we many? He maintains all these many, and we are maintained by Him, but He is also a person like you and me. Do you follow? Reporter: Yes, I do, but Swamiji, my question to you was a bit more pointed than that. I appreciate the answer you just gave me, but at what age did you realize the highest truth? At what physical age...? Prabhupāda: There is no question of age. Realization of God should be educated from the very beginning of life. Reporter: Oh, I understand that, Swamiji. My question to you was at what age did you yourself in this physical incarnation realize the highest truth? Prabhupāda: Of course, we were born in a very nice family. My father educated me in this way. So practically from the very beginning of our life we were educated in this way. Reporter: Oh, no, I understand that. I mean at what time did you have your own personal realization, Swamiji? At what age? Prabhupāda: Well, that I can say from the age, say, four or five years. Reporter: At the age of four or five years? Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Female Reporter: Swami, is there a chance that all your followers can realize the highest truth? Prabhupāda: They have already done. They have already done. Otherwise, I am Indian, I am poor man. Why they are after me? You Americans, you are rich men. So I have not bribed them. These young boys, they are educated, qualified. Why they are after me unless they have realized? Reporter: Swamiji, I have one other question for you, please. By definition, it seems to me anyway, and I think to other observers, and sympathetic observers at that, that you have asked your spiritual children to leave the outer world in the West and to go deep within the heart of ISKCON, within your heart and the heart of the Supreme, to accomplish what you've set as their goal. What about outer service to humanity in this incarnation? Prabhupāda: This is the best humanity's service. They were all fools and rascals and we educated them for spiritual understanding. The material... If I think "I am this body," then I am no better than cat and dog. That is going on. "I am American." "I am Indian." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am Christian." Only this bodily relationship. But suppose you have come to me, can I ask you whether you are body or something else? *Reporter: Swamiji, perhaps the deficiency is in my question. Let me rephrase the question, if you'll permit. And I realize there isn't much air to breathe. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I will make the question brief. My question has to do with karma*-yoga in the outer world, for instance, in New York City. From what I understand, your disciples do not pursue the professions. Is that correct? *Prabhupāda: No, we are also, we are also karma*-yogī. We are also eating, we are also sleeping. Reporter: Oh, no, I understand that. I'm speaking in terms of outer service to people who are not in your mission. Other than preaching the truth of Kṛṣṇa, is there any other outer service to humanity? *Prabhupāda: That will include everything. If we make Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he becomes perfectly educated. We do not require to... Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, the water reaches everywhere. And if you pour water on the leaf, on the twig, or on the branch, it does not go anywhere. It is localized. So at the present moment, service is a particular departmental service, not all*-including. So, to educate people in Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to educate him all round. Reporter: I understand, Swamiji. Again the deficiency is obviously with my question. My question relates to service to the outer world by your disciples. Prabhupāda: That I have already explained... Reporter: Yes, but... Prabhupāda: That if you pour water on the root of the tree, the service reaches everywhere. Reporter: How is that manifesting? Prabhupāda: Manifested? That's like if you eat and give the foodstuff to your stomach, then you realize that you have got energy in every part of your body. Reporter: Yes, I've understood your words, and I'm grateful for them, but again the problem, obviously, is with me and not with you. But the question still remains, what about being of material service. Material service, not just spiritual service? Prabhupāda: It is material service, as I showed. If you put foodstuff in your stomach, all the parts of your body feel energetic. That is material service. That is not spiritual service. Spiritual service (is) beyond that. Similarly, the center is God. If you understand God, then you understand everything. *Reporter: Understood, Swamiji. But your disciples do not build houses, they don't work in hospitals, they don't perform*-as far as I know, and I could just be swimming in ignorance here-as far as I know, they do not perform service to the outer world other than offering free meals at the temple and preaching the word of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: I, I quite follow. That is your ignorance. Because you do not know that what is the real service. You do not know. Do you know what is real service? Reporter: The answer should come from you and not from me. Prabhupāda: Yes. The real service is... Suppose you open hospital. You can cure for the time being some disease, but can you give me, can you give him any assurance that he will not die? Can you protect him from death? In spite of your all big, big hospitals, can you protect humanity from death, from birth, from old age, from disease? Can you? Reporter: Physically, of course not, only spiritually. Prabhupāda: Ah. That we are giving. That we are giving you, that no more death, no more birth, no more old age, and no more disease. Reporter: But couldn't your disciples perform all the wonderful things that you have them do and at the same time provide outer material service? *Prabhupāda: They are doing. They are doing. What they are not doing? They are doing all service. We have got this body. We have to maintain this body. We are doing everything. We are also eating, we are also sleeping, as you are eating, we are sleeping. Where is the difference? We also allow sex, but not illicit sex. We allow eating, but no meat*-eating. That is the difference. We are also eating, as you are eating. We are sleeping, as you are sleeping. Where is the difference? Reporter: Perhaps only in some perceptions. Prabhupāda: Huh? Reporter: Perhaps only in some perceptions. Prabhupāda: That's all. Reporter: Thank you, Swamiji. Prabhupāda: There is no difference. Reporter: Thank you very much. Devotees: Jaya! (end) Room Conversation with Bernard Manischewitz -- March 5, 1975, New York *Pratyatoṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is my father*-in-law, Mr. Manischewitz. I think you met in Chicago. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bernard Manischewitz: Yes, we met before. Prabhupāda: How are you? You want chair? Bernard Manischewitz: No, no, no. I... Thank you very much. I'm not fully accustomed yet, but I'm getting there. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He comes to our *Bhāgavatam* classes every Sunday. Bernard Manischewitz: Saturday. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Saturday. Prabhupāda: Now recently I have got one news from one German scientist. His name... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Von Braun. Prabhupāda: Von Braun. He is comparing there is God. He is scientist. He is thinking like us exactly. He is a very well known scientist, German scientist, Von Braun. Yes. Bernard Manischewitz: I have some questions. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bernard Manischewitz: You know I'm in the food business, so my first question deals with my food business. I'm familiar with the Kṛṣṇa cookbook*-I've read the recipes-but I do not see any suggested menus or nutritional information, and I'm wondering if there's any thought that's been worked on that. Is there any background of menus or nutritional information? Prabhupāda: Yes. Nutritional information means that we require for balance food: starch, carbohydrate, protein, fat. What else? Starch, carbohydrate, protein, fat. These are necessary nutrition, but these things are there in vegetable diet. Rice, starch; wheat, protein; dahl, protein; then vegetable, carbohydrate; *and milk, fat. So if we take food and test it within these four, five groups... Eat according to our conception, sattvikaḥ. Sattvikaḥ means foodstuff in goodness. There are three qualities in the material world-goodness, passion and ignorance. So they are described: these are goodness foods, these are passion, these are ignorance. So these items: rice, wheat, vegetables, dahl and milk is sufficient for nutrition. Above that, you take little fruit, it is very good. And in India this foodstuff is taken by the learned circle-brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas*-and they keep very good health, very good life. Bernard Manischewitz: This is on experience, on the experience that they have. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experience. You will find many healthy persons in India subsisting only on these foodstuffs, and they have good brain also. India is still, I think, eighty percent people are strictly vegetarian. Not to speak of the higher class, but the lower class also. The higher class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Vaiśya is via media, between higher and lower. And the śūdras and less that the śūdras, caṇḍālas, they are lower class. So meat*-eating is current among these lower class of men, śūdras and caṇḍālas. The caṇḍālas, they have no discrimination, they eat everything, and śūdras, they eat meat, but under restriction. Some of them do not; *some of them do, but under restriction, and that is restricted with the goat animal. Less than the śūdras-caṇḍālas, pañcama, fifth grade*-they eat everything. Especially they eat-because cow protection in India is very strict-so these caṇḍālas, fifth grade men, they eat generally pigs. Pigs they eat. Outside the village, they have their residential quarters, and they fry live pigs. And they make... Not daily; *sometimes. But they eat pigs, and amongst them, there is a class-they are cobblers*-they eat this cows' flesh when the animal is dead, not living and we'll kill. Bernard Manischewitz: He dies his own natural death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the higher class, they keep cows, they maintain, but after all, the animal will die. So when the animal dies, they call for this cobbler class, and he takes away the dead cows. So he gets out the skin, hooves, bones and flesh, they eat, and this skin is tanned by them, and they prepare shoes. So they get their raw material without any price. Bernard Manischewitz: I see, yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They are poor class. So our program, "When he will die," so they wait for the death of the animal and get the skin, hoof, bones, they make trade. (to devotee:) So what is this key, the elmira? Devotee: No, that is a little spoon for your tilaka. *Prabhupāda: Oh. So cow is very important animal. So from religious point of view, or from economic point of view, cows are not allowed, in the Vedic civilization, to be killed. The meat-eaters, they are everywhere, all over the world, but in India meat-eating is allowed*-the fifth class, fifth grade community, they eat these cows when it is dead. And the śūdra class, they also eat meat restrictively, goats. That is only under certain restriction, means sacrifice. The goat is sacrificed in the Goddess Kali's temple, and they eat. This is very dangerous, this sacrifice. It is very dangerous. It creates all sinful men. In the Christian religion also, it is said, "Thou shall not kill," and they are killing. So what kind of Christians they are? Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse? Prabhupāda: Eh? Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse? The goats? Prabhupāda: No. Bernard Manischewitz: Like a sacrifice. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bernard Manischewitz: I see. Prabhupāda: Sacrifice means restriction. One meaning of sacrifice is: if you believe in the śāstra, the animal is going to get next life as a human being. Because he is being sacrificed under Vedic rituals, so he is given promotion immediately, to human life. So he is not loser. His body being sacrificed before the deity, he gets the opportunity of getting a human life immediately, for which he had to wait perhaps thousands and thousands of years, because the evolution will go. Of course, after animal life the next life is human life. So anyway, he is given the concession to get a human form of body immediately after this body is destroyed, and with the right that he has the right to kill the man who has killed him. That mantra is cited, that "He was sacrificing your life, so you get immediately human form of body, and you can kill this man." So this is the Vedic rituals. Another animal sacrifice is there just to make experiment of the Vedic mantra. An animal is sacrificed in the altar, and he is given again life, rejuvenated life. An old cow sacrificed, and he gets a youth, young (body). If the animal comes out alive, then it is to be considered that the Vedic mantras are being recited correctly. Not to kill and eat, no, no, that is not the purpose. Just like in laboratories, they make some experiment on the animal, similarly this is like that. The animal is sacrificed, and he is rejuvenated in young life. Old life is sacrificed, and he gets a new body. Then it is to be understood that in this ritualistic ceremony the mantras are chanted correctly. That is their power. But because in this age such learned brāhmaṇas are not available, therefore it is stopped. No more. There is a verse in the *Purāṇas*, Bernard Manischewitz: You say in these times. How recent is this? How recent? *Prabhupāda: Say about five thousand years. Kali*-yuga has begun since five thousand years, and it will continue for 427,000 years still. Bernard Manischewitz: I have another question. May I ask it? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bernard Manischewitz: There seems to be a determination on the part of most of the devotees to eliminate from their lives all news except that dealing with Kṛṣṇa. It seems..., it seems to me if they are to bring Kṛṣṇa to the world that it would be an important thing for them to have news, to know, to be able to communicate with people. Is there some actual prohibition against (indistinct)? *Prabhupāda: No, we know... It is useless. It is useless. Because what you will find in the newspaper? The material activities within this item*-eating, sleeping, sex and defense. All the politicians will speak, "Now we are arranging eating process like this, we are making this plan, we are..., economic." Uhh? (aside:) Thank you. Very good. You have written? Aiye. The repetition of the same news. It has no good news. "There was a burglary, there was a theft, and this man cheated, and this man was rogue." What is the use of this news? Let everyone know that the whole world is full of such rubbish things. The politicians, they are talking in their own way, that's all. (indistinct) Even Gandhi, such an exalted man, he says that "I have no belief. I do not believe that there was any person as Kṛṣṇa ever living." Just see. All the big, big ācāryas of India who are practically controlling the destiny of the Hindu civilization or Vedic civilization, they all believe. Gandhi became more than them. Who made him, that is another thing. But he thinks like that, and because Gandhi thinks, just imagine how many millions of people have been misled. Similarly big, big scholars like Dr. Radhakrishnan, he says when Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], he said, "This is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, clearly it is stated, bhagavān uvāca Find out this verse. Please, you find out, somebody. Bhagavad-gītā here. Find out. Devotee: Eighteenth Chapter. *Prabhupāda: Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī, Ninth Chapter. Devotee: Ninth Chapter. Also Eighteenth. Prabhupāda: He directly says that, that "Just become My devotee, always think of Me, offer your respectful obeisances unto Me, and I guarantee that you will come back to Me." Read it. Devotee: *Prabhupāda: Now, Radhakrishnan says "Not to Kṛṣṇa." So there are so many wrong directions by big, big men, taking Bhagavad*-gītā. This is going on. And we are poor fellows. We are neither big scholar nor politician. We simply teach our disciple the same thing in Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto; *we are teaching, "You just become devotee of Kṛṣṇa." That's all. No addition, no interpretation. And people are coming. And for the last two hundred years the so*-called scholars and politicians published their books, and it is widely read, and not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not a single. Just see practically. We have no magic. We don't play any magic, prepare gold or jugglery. We simply say that you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and these young men have become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Bernard Manischewitz: I see. Well, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bernard Manischewitz: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees pay obeisances) Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Mr. Bosca Patel, our life member. Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And that's Professor Chawla and his family. They've been coming very regularly for years and years. Prabhupāda: Oh, very nice. (indistinct) (end) Bhajans and Room Conversation -- March 8, 1975, London Prabhupāda: Just try. Haṁsadūta: I can't. Nobody can do like you do. Prabhupāda: Gāy gorācand madhur sware. I think I have sung this song. Huh? (Prabhupāda continues playing and singing for a few more minutes) Wherefrom you have purchased it? *Haṁsadūta: This harmonium was originally made for Nara*-nārāyaṇa, and then it was... but it was never delivered to him. It was picked up by Maṇibaṇḍha. And Maṇibaṇḍha left it in Amsterdam, and so they did not like it. So I gave them a harmonium that I had, and I took this one. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Because I think it's very good, huh? Prabhupāda: It is not very good. Haṁsadūta: But it's nice. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So kīrtana is going on, here and there. Haṁsadūta: Oh, yeah, everywhere. Prabhupāda: Paris also? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen that house? *Brahmānanda: No, I didn't see it. I was only there just twenty*-four hours. Prabhupāda: I think you change that silk cloth. Ordinary cloth is, because it does not stand, it becomes loose. Śrutakīrti: Plain cotton. Prabhupāda: Cotton is better. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: So that land, what is the description of the land here? Haṁsadūta: That I was telling you about? Prabhupāda: Hmm. Haṁsadūta: You know the lady in the front here. There's this lady, Miss... Um, I can't think of her name. She called us yesterday, and she said it is much bigger than the land which we have purchased here, which is four acres. We bought four acres. So she didn't say how big it was. She didn't tell us. But she said there's several houses on it. And it will cost approximately 38,000 pounds. So it seems to be quite a sizable piece of land. And the man who owns the property, he knows that we are interested in it, and he is willing to work with us. And so far as we are told, that nobody knows about it. It is confidential. (end) Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London *Prabhupāda: ...he did not like to kill his cousin*-brother. He said that "Even they usurp my kingdom, I do not wish to kill them." So this affection, this bodily affection, was not very much approved by Kṛṣṇa. He said that "You are talking like a non-Āryan." Anārya-juṣṭam. Anārya. "The Āryan, they do not think like that." Another place He says that "You are giving consideration on the body, but any learned man does not refer to body, either dead or alive. They, learned man, will give stress on the moving force of the body." So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means basically on the moving force of the body. Reporter: The moving force of...? Prabhupāda: Of the body. Just like you are moving, I am moving. As soon as the moving force, whatever it is, is gone, then your body is a lump of matter, my body is a lump of matter. Reporter: Have you had any difficulty in bringing this, which seems to have originated in India, into the West? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Haṁsadūta: Have we found any problems or difficulty is bringing this teaching, which appears to have originated in India, to the West? Have we found any problem? Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be any problem. Just like I am speaking to you. If you are sane man, you will have to admit this. The mistake you will have to admit, if you are a sane man. If you are something else, then you will not admit the mistake. Reporter: Uh huh. But... Prabhupāda: Now, the mistake is... You are talking with me; I am talking with you. Your body is there, my body. But which is important? Your body is important, or the force which is talking, that is important? Which is important? Reporter: The force. Prabhupāda: Just see. So who is giving? Where is the educational institution to give lesson about this living force? Is there any education all over the world? Reporter: But you don't find that the fact that your monks are wearing robes or shaving their heads is a difficulty in the West, where not many people... Prabhupāda: It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of human life. There is no question... The Western people also have this living force, and Eastern people also have this living force. So where is the difference, West and East? There is no question of West and East. It is the problem for the whole human society. Reporter: Can you tell me how your teaching relates to the Bible, to the Christian teaching? Prabhupāda: Christian teaching is good. It is giving idea of God. But who is following Christian teaching? That is the problem. Nobody is following. Christ says, "Thou shall not kill," and the Christian people are very expert in killing. Do you admit or not? Reporter: I admit. Prabhupāda: Just see. Then who is a Christian? If one does not follow the instruction of Christ, then would you call him a Christian? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: That's it. That is the problem. *Reporte: Is there any reason why you teach your followers the Bhagavad*-gītā rather than the Bible? Prabhupāda: The teaching is the same. The teaching is the same. What Lord Jesus Christ taught and what we are... (aside:) Aiye. The teaching is the same. But who is following? That is the difficulty. Reporter: I see. So you don't think that... *Prabhupāda: The difficulty has arisen*-I am claiming to be Hindu, but I am not following the Vedic rules. You are claiming to be Christian, but you are not following the Christian rules. This is going on all over the world. Reporter: But if someone was making the Bible a sort of reality in their lives... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is good. What is the wrong there, Bible? It is everything all right. We don't say "The Bible is bad, and *Vedas* are good." We don't say that. Reporter: Are you yourself or do your followers regard you as an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa or as the teacher of His teachings? Prabhupāda: No. We regard ourself as servant of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Servant of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: There are a lot of other spiritual groups in the world... Prabhupāda: Everyone is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Are you saying... Prabhupāda: Everyone. You are also servant of Kṛṣṇa. Are you not servant of Kṛṣṇa? Are you master? You are not servant of anyone? Are you? You have come as press representative. You are servant of the press. So you are not master. Reporter: But I wanted to ask about other spiritual groups in this country... Prabhupāda: So any spiritual... If he actually belongs to the spiritual understand, then he must admit that he is servant of God. Reporter: Servant of God. Prabhupāda: That is real spiritual understanding. Reporter: But many different groups give the... Prabhupāda: They are not... They have no spiritual understanding. Anyone who says something else beyond this understanding, that every living entity is servant of God, if he says something else, he does not know what is spiritual life. Reporter: But there seem to be a lot of groups that are saying that, but teaching a different way to... Prabhupāda: Different way... There cannot be dif... The way is one. God is one, and we all living entities, we are dependent on God's mercy. Therefore we are servant. Everyone is servant. We say that, that God is one, and every one of us, we are all servant of God. So let us engage in our original position as servant of God. This is our teaching. Reporter: Do you feel that... In other groups also there are sort of teachers or masters or whatever they call them. Do you feel that there can be more than... Prabhupāda: They are wasting time simply and cheating others. That's all. Reporter: They are wasting time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they do not understand what is their position; *therefore their teaching is simply waste of time. This is the position: that God is great, and we are all dependent on God. Who will deny this? This is the original principle. Now, in one religious system it may be taught in a little different way. In another religious system it may be... But if there is no such sense that "God is the supreme, and we are all subordinate servant..." This should be the basic idea. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam: Reporter: You're not actually saying that you're the only teacher who can give this teaching, but that any teacher who gives this teaching... Prabhupāda: No, this is the principle. Just like two plus two equal to four. So anyone who teaches this, he is a teacher. And if a rascal says two plus two equal to three, then he is not a teacher; he is a cheater. Reporter: So are you saying in fact that... Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... I am saying, what I am saying to you, that "God is great, and everyone is servant." Can you deny this? Can you deny this? Reporter: No. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the difficulty? Nobody, no sane man, will deny it. Reporter: Is the teacher always necessary? I mean, many meditation groups or yoga groups say that... Prabhupāda: Yes. Why you are asking? Anything you want to learn, you must go to a teacher. How you can learn independently? *Reporter: I mean just, say, by reading the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: Reading Bhagavad-gītā is also taking lesson from the teacher. Teacher*-Kṛṣṇa is personally the teacher, and you read Bhagavad-gītā means you take lessons from teacher, the supreme teacher. Reporter: I read a news report recently that you had said in Paris that you no longer taught your followers to chant simply the name of, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, because the name of God could be chanted in any form. Is that so? Prabhupāda: Yes. Chanting of the holy name... We are broadcasting that you, in this age, you begin for God realization. Chant His holy name. Very simple thing. Reporter: So this holy name can be in different forms for a Christian or a Hindu. Prabhupāda: Different form means that the... Just like water. Water, somebody says, "Water," and India, somebody says, jal, or pani, but the substance is the same. If your name means the same thing, then it is right. And if your name suggests something else, then it is wrong. Reporter: And is there something that... Prabhupāda: So if you have got some name which actually refers to God, then it is all right. But if you have got something, name, which refers to dog, then it is wrong. Reporter: Is this something that your followers can be aware of constantly? *Prabhupāda: So we are recommending to chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. So God is all-attractive. Otherwise how He can be God? God cannot be attractive for you and not for me. This is very accurate word. God has no name. That's a fact. But we coin His name according to His dealings. Just like we call God Yaśodā-nandana. So God came as the son of Yaśodā. Therefore we call Him Yaśodā-nandana, son of Yaśodā. So you can take it as name. Similarly, God's name the total summarization-"all-attractive." That is perfect name. Reporter: Is this the same name that is spoken of in the Bible where it says "the word of God"? Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that? Reporter: In the Bible it says "the word of God." Is that the same name that... *Prabhupāda: Yes, word is God. Kṛṣṇa is God. If you use this word Kṛṣṇa*-because God is all-attractive-then immediately you associate with God. And if you associate with God, then you become purified. Reporter: Can you explain what I read in one of your books, that the sound spoken either in chanting a mantra or when talking about God or Kṛṣṇa is somehow transcendental sound, though it's spoken with the same voice. Prabhupāda: God is Absolute. His name and His person, not different, because He is Absolute. Here in the material world the name is not the substance. If I want water... I am thirsty, and if I chant "Water, water, water, water," that will not help me. But in the spiritual world, God being Absolute, you chant God's name, you see God's form, you discuss about God's activities, they are all the same. Reporter: So how, if when we chant "Water, water, water," we don't... Prabhupāda: That is material word. If you chant "Water, water," the real water will not come. But if you chant "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa," then because it is absolute, then you are associating with Kṛṣṇa. Reporter: Then we've, we come into the spiritual world. Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately. Because Kṛṣṇa is on your tongue. Reporter: But how do we feel that? Prabhupāda: You will feel. Go on chanting. Just like if you drink water, then you will feel that "My thirsty... thirstiness is gone." Reporter: Oh. But it's the same body doing it. Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you chant "Kṛṣṇa," then you will be spiritually realized. Reporter: That's all the questions I have. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Reporter: Thank you very much. *Prabhupāda: So this is very important movement. Try to understand and broadcast it. It is not a sectarian, so*-called religious movement. It is a scientific movement. Reporter: You mean this movement in the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And all our books, they are very nicely being accepted... Reporter: Yeah, I have some of them. *Prabhupāda: ...by high*-class professors, universities, libraries. They are all accepting. You will be surprised to know that we are selling books, according to our Indian currency, twenty lakhs of rupees per month. Out of that, we are spending eight to ten lakhs for all our centers. Reporter: You have centers all over the world? Prabhupāda: Yes, all over the world. In Europe we have got so many centers. Here in London we have got two centers. Similarly, Paris, Germany, four centers. Then Sweden, one? Haṁsadūta: Sweden and Denmark. Prabhupāda: Denmark, Holland, and Rome, then Switzerland, Geneva. So we have got several branches here. Reporter: Are many people joining you? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just see, many people here. Each center we have got not less than fifty men, up to 250. Similarly, we have got in Australia and New Zealand, all over the world. In India we have got six. In India I have got six. In Vṛndāvana, Calcutta, Bombay, Navadvīpa, Hyderabad*-in so many places. Reporter: Is the work you recommend your followers to do purely spiritual, or do you... Prabhupāda: This we simply say, that "God is great. You are servant. Don't be befooled that you are God. Don't be befooled like that." That is our program. Reporter: Do they do anything like social work or other... *Prabhupāda: Yes, social work, this is the best social work. People are in ignorance, and we are giving them knowledge. Is it not the best social work? If you keep the man in ignorance and if you give him something... Just like your child. You simply give him to eat but no education. Then what is the benefit? Is that very good nice work, that you give your children nice food to become robust but no education? Is that very good nice work? People are, in this human form of life, especially meant for understanding God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta*-sūtra. So they are keeping them in darkness and teaching them technology, how to make cycle. That's all. The life is meant for understanding God, and they have been educated for making cycle and sewing machine. This is going on. Therefore there will be disaster. It is already there. Just like in America or any Western country, they have manufactured so many cars, and now they are flattering the Arabians, "Please give us oil." You see? Power crisis. And if they stop manufacturing, there is unemployment. And if they increase car, there is power shortage. So this dilemma, this modern civilization will have to meet this dilemma because they are going against the laws of God. Reporter: You are not suggesting that all of that is just cut away completely, but that people...? *Prabhupāda: No, you require... First thing, you require to eat. So Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Produce sufficient grain, food grain, so that both the animal and the man, they will eat and become robust, stout, and strong. And they will be capable of working. So that is the first thing. But who is producing food grains? They are producing motor tires. When there is scarcity of food, will these motor tires help us? We shall eat motor tires? This is going on, so-called industrialization, producing unnecessary thing which is not required, and they are neglecting producing food grains. And I have estimated-I am traveling all over the world*-that there are so much space even now that if you produce food grain, you can feed ten times of the population as it is. But they will not do that. They will create motorcars, and the whole street is congested. At any moment there can be accident, and if you have to go to consult a doctor, you have to go thirty miles off. Because the motorcar is there. I am diseased. I want to consult a doctor. So he must be in neighborhood. But I have to go thirty miles. And maybe, before going to the doctor, I may be finished, by accident. Anartha, it is called anartha. Anartha means unwanted things. So Bhāgavata says, Reporter: So it's just a question of when. Prabhupāda: The book is there. You learn, and you be learned. It is already there. Reporter: Do you foresee a time coming when people will realize... Prabhupāda: It has already come, disaster. Reporter: No, I mean a time coming when disaster is averted and people realize... *Prabhupāda: No, unless you take the real instruction, how you can stop disaster? You must agree to take the real instruction. If you don't agree, then you suffer. That is your business. But the remedy is there. The instruction is there. Just like Bhagavad*-gītā says, "Produce food grain." The remedy is there. But you will not produce food grain; you will produce motorcar. Then you must suffer. Reporter: But do you foresee a time when many people will receive that remedy? Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but the remedy is there. If you like, you can take it. If a man is suffering from some disease, the remedy is there, the physician is there, but if he does not take advantage, then that is his business. What can be done? This is very nice... Every Bhāgavata, every line is so important. Reporter: I guess we're not independent of our death. Prabhupāda: You want to be independent? Haṁsadūta: He says that "I guess we are not independent of our death." *Prabhupāda: That's it. Very... Thank you. (laughter) That is intelligence. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. Those who are not accepting God in lifetime, they will meet God, death. Death is another form of God. That they cannot deny. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. He simply defied God, and Nṛsiṁhadeva came, finished everything within a second. Reporter: Is this something where we can sort of experience death while we are still alive? Prabhupāda: Alive, we have been given chance to understand God. But if you don't understand, then next life you become a dog. Reporter: A dog? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Reporter: Why a dog? Prabhupāda: Why not? (laughter) Suppose if God says that "You become a dog," can you check it? Reporter: Is there any way I can prepare...? Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can if you surrender. Reporter: If I...? Prabhupāda: If you surrender. Reporter: Surrender. Prabhupāda: Then you can check. Reporter: And the only way to surrender is to accept this... Prabhupāda: Otherwise there is no certainty. You can become demigod also. You can become higher planetary... But you have to change your body. Either you become dog or you can become demigod, but change your body, that is fact. Reporter: You mean it always comes back as some form of animal? Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that? Haṁsadūta: Whether you always return as an animal? Prabhupāda: No, not always. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. Reporter: A hundred thousand. Prabhupāda: Eight million. Reporter: Oh. Prabhupāda: You have to accept one of them. That is according to your quality. Reporter: Qualities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Reporter: The quality of my life. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you infect a certain type of disease, you must suffer from that disease. Similarly, there are three qualities of the material nature. So as you associate with that quality, you get a similar body. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. How one is getting better life, one is getting worse life, the reason is associating, infecting the different types of modes of nature. That education we have no... There is no such education, what kind of association we should make so that we can better life or we can go back to home, back to God. There is no such education. They are living like cats and dogs and going to be cats and dogs. Reporter: Do I understand that the children in your school in Texas, that they're brought up in what you consider spiritual consciousness... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside... *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Reporter: And is the correct way of living merely a way of doing, actually, a sort of higher state of consciousness where you're experiencing something different to... Prabhupāda: Experience, why? If we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why shall we experience differently? There is no question of. Reporter: You're not experiencing differently. Prabhupāda: No. Just like we are teaching these boys how to live, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then... (to devotees:) What is our program, just explain. What is our program in the temple from the early in the morning. Haṁsadūta: Rising at 3:30, take bath, then go to the temple for kīrtana and lecture. Then chant our rounds, take breakfast, and then do duties. Reporter: What time do you take breakfast? Haṁsadūta: 8:00, 8:30. So before taking breakfast, we are already awake four hours. Most people sleep till eight. Reporter: And then through the day? Haṁsadūta: Through the day we're engaged. Some people are typing; some people are painting; some people are preaching; some people are printing books. We do everything, because this society is complete. As Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, everything should be done as an offering unto Me. By this principle of work you are freed from all sinful reaction and you come to Me." So the goal of life, or the goal of this society, or human society, should be to go back home, back to Godhead, back to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: We are going to have the next body. That's a fact. So Bhagavad*-gītā says that how you can have the next body. Reporter: Yeah, I've run out of questions. *Prabhupāda: All questions are answered in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly, and you will get all answer, all problems solved. Unfortunately, the so-called politicians and scholars, they misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā and ruin their career and misguide others. That is going on. All rascals are doing that. "This word means this," as if Kṛṣṇa left this word to be explained by a rascal. This is going on. He does not think of his position, that at any moment he will be kicked out of this platform of so-called leadership, so-called educated teacher, and he is commenting on the words of Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. He does not understand his position, that "What I am?" *Reporter: How does Kṛṣṇa consciousness relate to the Hindu religion? Because that is also based on the Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not meant for the Hindus, but Kṛṣṇa appeared in Hindustan. Therefore it is the duty of all Hindus to know Kṛṣṇa first. And they also conscious. Every Hindu knows Kṛṣṇa. Every Hindu observes the Janmāṣṭamī, Kṛṣṇa's birthday. But they are not very serious to understand Kṛṣṇa as a follower. Just like Christian. They admit they are Christian but don't follow the Christian principles. So that Hindus are also like that. Nobody is following Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am God." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior person or superior position than Me," Kṛṣṇa says. And "God" means that. In the dictionary "God" means the Supreme Being. Supreme Being means nobody is greater than Him; *nobody is equal to Him. That is called supreme. So here God personally says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. But this rascal will not accept. They will say, "No, here is another dini*-kṛṣṇa." They will bring one competitor. That is going on. "God" means there cannot be any competitor. Nobody is equal to Him; nobody is greater than Him. But they will bring so many competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa alone will be God?" This is the position of the modern Hindus. They have lost their own culture, and they wanted to imitate Western culture. That they could not do, neither they could maintain their own culture. Therefore in the wilderness, very precarious condition. Reporter: So thanks very much indeed for talking to me. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Give him some prasādam. This is Kṛṣṇa's prasāda. Reporter: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (guest leaves) Did you take any information of that land? You wanted to go? Haṁsadūta: No, we didn't get a chance today. Prabhupāda: So they said there were some life members here? Devotee: Yes. Brahmānanda(?) has brought them here. Prabhupāda: Aiye. (end) Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London Prabhupāda: No, no. Any place where there is no sunshine, that is condemned. *Brahmānanda: In your Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, you write that the sun purifies a dirty place and also the mind. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: But we don't rely on the sun for purifying our mind. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: As devotees, we don't rely on the sun... Prabhupāda: We have the Kṛṣṇa sun. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is this, sun? No. Śrutakīrti: Spinnery. Prabhupāda: Spinnery. [break] There is no sunshine. It is wet always, just see? Trees also, they have moss. Brahmānanda: In India the sun is very intense. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brahmānanda: Does that have something to do that Kṛṣṇa appeared there? *Prabhupāda: Puṇya*-bhūmi, pious land. Still, so fallen, whenever there is a question of spiritual meeting, thousands, lakhs, will come. You have seen Kumbha-melā? Brahmānanda: No. Prabhupāda: You have seen? Śrutakīrti: No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I've seen pictures. Prabhupāda: Very poor men, still, they gather, sixty lakhs, without any advertisement. Brahmānanda: Here you have to advertise to get six hundred. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Or six. *Prabhupāda: And it was so nice to live there, spiritual atmosphere, on the bank of the Ganges and Yamunā. Immediately you go, you become spiritualized. Vṛndāvana is also like that. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, bhārata*-bhūmite janma haila, manuṣya-janma haila. To get the human form of life born in India, that is a special prerogative. Bhārata-bhumite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. He is fifty percent-prepared by birth. Brahmānanda: Just by birth. Prabhupāda: Yes. And then, by culture, another fifty percent. But they have given up this culture. But the birthright fifty percent is already also there. Prayāga, severest cold, eh, I took bath in the Ganges. It is simply cutting. But still, they are taking bath and smearing over the body the ashes and sit down, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. No care "Wherefrom food will come? Where...?" No. That's in India still. [break] ...it is also like this, cloudy? Bhagavān: Just a few months out of the year, January, February. Prabhupāda: Otherwise how we have gone there? (laughter) Africa was part of India. Brahmānanda: The land was together? Prabhupāda: No, there... Indian man: Geological information it was. It was together. And Australia was fitting in the Bay of Bengal. This is the theory. I learned from my lecturer, Dr. Willinghurst. He told me in my class. Prabhupāda: Because from Bhāgavata we understand that the black man who was born out of the body of King Vena, he was thief. So he was sent to the African jungle. Yes. And they are still thief. (laughter) They cannot give up their... Although they have got independence, they cannot give up this habit. (Dog barking) "Best friend." Brahmānanda: Mahārāja Pṛthu also came from the body of King Vena. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: So he stayed in India, and the other, he went to Africa. *Prabhupāda: No, he was the emperor of the whole world. But the jungle part... Somebody... The whole world was known as Bhāratavarṣa, this planet, nine varṣas: Bhārata*-varṣa, Ketumāla-varṣa, Ilāvṛta-varṣa... the whole universal situation is mentioned, where different lands are there. [break] Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...ages, Śrīla Prabhupāda, did the people, in order to get valuable minerals and gold and things like that, did they mine underneath the ground? *Prabhupāda: No. There was no need of coal. And the jewelries and stones were received from the sea*-pearls, valuable stones from the hills. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they didn't dig deep holes underneath the ground? Prabhupāda: No. There was no need. The richest persons' property were ivory, gold, marble, valuable jewels, pearls, silk. This was luxury, not plastic. Now they have advanced, they have got plastic, no gold, no silver. Paper money and plastic utensils. This is advancement. Brahmānanda: Do we consider ivory as something pure or impure? Prabhupāda: No, pure. Brahmānanda: It is pure. Prabhupāda: Ivory, yes. There is a current proverb, "Dead elephant, one lakh rupees." Mara hati lakṣa na:(?) "Elephant, alive or dead, one lakh of rupees." On account of ivory. When the elephant is dead, it is put into a hole and covered. And after sometimes you find all the ivory. The bones and the teeth are very, very valuable. Formerly big, big kings, they used to manufacture their furniture of ivory and gold and silk pad. This is luxury. And the rooms bedecked with jewel. No electricity, no lamp. This is description of Kṛṣṇa's sixteen thousand palace. Who has got now? Sixteen thousand wives and sixteen thousand palace of marble and furniture ivory and gold. Where is there now? Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the richest. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya. Devotee (1): Were all the races originated in India? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee (1): The races were originated in India, all the races, the different races that there are now? Prabhupāda: India what do you mean by? Not the modern India. India was the whole world. Devotee (1): So all the different kinds of human beings actually were originated there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. First, second, third. Then fourth is the śūdras. And the fifth, caṇḍālas: no Vedic culture. They are caṇḍālas. So the Europeans, they were kṣatriyas originally. On account of Paraśurāma's massacre process, they fled from India to European side. And Greece and Rome, they were given*-I think, Turkey also-given to two sons of Mahārāja Yayāti. They refused the order of the father. The father was very licentious. So he begged from two sons that "You give me your youth." They refused. So therefore they were banished in this part of the world. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Into England. Prabhupāda: Not England. Greece, Rome, Turkey. Next to India, they were civilized. So European race mostly come from that part. Caucasian. Kaśyapa Muni. Central India. Er, central... What is called? Asia, Asia. *Brahmānanda: Why it took Paraśurāma twenty*-one times to defeat? *Prabhupāda: They were not properly doing their duties. So Paraśurāma said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly kṣatriyas were guided by the brāhmaṇas, even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all the rules and regulations. But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdraḥ*-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are śūdras. Because they are workers. [break] Everyone can be purified, even the caṇḍālas. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. Yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasādayaḥ, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kālayavana. Kālayavana fought with Kṛṣṇa. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees laughing) Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: He was recording like this. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, just the last few minutes. (laughter) I was listening though, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, will the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will take over the world eventually? Prabhupāda: Huh? *Devotee (1): Is going to take over the world eventually some time during the Kali*-yuga, in this Kali-yuga? Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible, because only the fortunate persons will take. *Devotee (1): I mean, but will the power of the kṣatriyas will be in the hands of the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons sometime during this Kali*-yuga? Prabhupāda: Provided you become very expert to preach. Unless you preach, how they will take? [break] *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Towards the end of the Kali*-yuga isn't there a description in the Bhāgavatam that one will not be able to see the sun or the moon? *Prabhupāda: During the end of Kali*-yuga? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because of the impiety. So there will be no vegetation. Is that description in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Prabhupāda: I don't think. [break] ...it is stated? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, I had heard-of course, I'm not certain of the source*-that because of impiety the sun and the moon, people would not be able to see. So there would be no vegetation. And without vegetation, even animals cannot live. So eventually they would take to eating their own children. Is this what takes place? Prabhupāda: Yes, there will be no foodstuff at the end of... That is stated. No milk, no food grains, no fruits, no whatever. Especially food grains. *Devotee (2): There will be some devotees left at the end of Kali*-yuga? Prabhupāda: Yes, only the devotees will be left. All others... [break] (loud noise of car screeching.) ...are not very neat and clean. (chuckles) Yes. That means condition is not very good. And it is sound. Brahmānanda: Not in proper repair. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We had an engagement last night at a technical school after your lecture, and inside the entrance of the technical school in a big glass case they had a big engine from a car, when you walk into the technical school. Mostly Indians, young boys. Prabhupāda: Oh, foreigners. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. [break] So they were very disrespectful actually. But when we started kīrtana, the whole atmosphere changed. Do you think that the young Indian boys in the future, they will become anywhere near as pious as their parents? Prabhupāda: Why do you take India? We are talking of the whole world. There is no question of India, Europe, America. [break] *Brahmānanda: ...Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam about the kirātas and so on. That means we can go to any community in the world... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brahmānanda: ...and preach, and some will join. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is actually happening. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, has there been an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa outside India, somewhere else in another part of the world? Or does He always comes in India? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaktyāveṣa avatāra, somebody empowered by Him, not Kṛṣṇa Himself. Just like Christ. Christ is also empowered incarnation. Śaktyāveṣa avatāra. Mohammed is also. Anyone who is preaching about God is empowered incarnation. Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nāhi kṛṣṇa nāma*-pracāra. That is there in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. [break] Devotee (2): ...that your initiated disciples had some relationship with Lord Caitanya when He was on this earth? Prabhupāda: Everyone has relationship, all living entities. Brahmānanda: He is Viśvambhara, means the maintainer of all living entities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prince of Wales. Prince of Wales, I think this, I think he is dead now. King Edward, I mean to say, George's elder brother? No, not George's. George VI. Is there an elder brother? Edward? When he was Prince of Wales he was actually to be the emperor, or King of England. But he married one common girl, and therefore he was refused. So he, as Prince of Wales, he went to India. And when he saw the bright sunshine, he was surprised. (laughter) Yes. Brahmānanda: He had never seen. Prabhupāda: He, or before him, another prince. Because that Prince of... We were at that time children. So I think King George V, when he was Prince of Wales. Brahmānanda: Oh, when he came to Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen. We were school children at that time. So on the two sides of the road, our first place was, the king, queen passed, we saw. We were given a flag. (laughter) "Jaya Rāja, Rājeśvara." We were... And very good tiffin was supplied. Two samosa, two kachori, two sandeśa, and one big tangerine. Twice I saw. Once when he entered Calcutta, and again, one day, when there was a parade of military... military parade. So both days we were invited, and we saw the king. [break] Brahmānanda: ...Calcutta, on the Maidan, there's that big building, that big memorial. Is that... Prabhupāda: Oh, Victoria Memorial. Brahmānanda: That was built for, the king when he was coming? Prabhupāda: No, that was built in memory of Victoria. It was done, imitating the Taj Mahal. It took twenty years. Sir Rajendranath Mukherjee of Martin Company, he took the contract. And after finishing, he got this title, "Sir." And when it was being constructed, I went to the top by crossing the scaffolding. Brahmānanda: So you must have been very brave. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am still brave. (laughter) Otherwise how could I come alone to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I am still brave. Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Some astrologer told that "This boy, for executing his purpose, he will enter into the fire." Yes. [break] ...recently, in our Bombay affair, it was fight with the fire. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: And we have come out victorious. Brahmānanda: Yes. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: So much obstacle, still going on. Now the governor is cornered. Brahmānanda: The governor of Maharastra. Prabhupāda: Yes, Bombay. If he says yes, that is also dangerous; if he says no, that is also dangerous. [break] Brahmānanda: We do not really understand how demoniac, how calculating, our leaders are. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: We have the impression, because we are taught from the very beginning in the schools, that the leaders are to be worshiped, that their birthdays are to be celebrated... Prabhupāda: Where you are going? Śrutakīrti: He's going to pick up that lawyer. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted. *Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu*-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist. Devotee (2): Even if we present a Kṛṣṇa conscious candidate, the people will still choose a rogue to lead them, even if we present a candidate who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Canada we have got already temples. Brahmānanda: Candidate, someone to stand for the election. Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything. Unless you turn the mass of people Kṛṣṇa conscious, what you will do there? Suppose one man is elected. All demons. What he will do there? Therefore the first thing is that turn the people Kṛṣṇa conscious, and when they will vote, that is shortened (certain?) Otherwise, it is waste of time. (end) Morning Walk -- March 13, 1975, Iran *Prabhupāda: ...imaṁ rājarṣayo vidhuḥ. Rājarṣayaḥ, it means the saintly kings. These... Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, in the Fourth Chapter, it is meant for the saintly kings, because if the king is saintly, and if he understands the philosophy of life, then he can turn the whole picture. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the palace? That is the palace? Atreya Ṛṣi: That is the palace. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very nice. Atreya Ṛṣi: The inside is full of gold. Prabhupāda: Heaps? Some... Huh? Full of gold. Atreya Ṛṣi: Gold, yes. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So in Iran there is gold mine? No. Atreya Ṛṣi: There is some, yes. Iran has the richest copper mines, oil, richest oil, the second in the world, the... Prabhupāda: Who is the first? Atreya Ṛṣi: Saudia Arabia. But we have gas, natural gas, the richest. It's so easy to take out this oil and gas. So easy, like..., easier than gold. Prabhupāda: Yes. And it is more valuable than gold. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. And then they have many, many minerals... (end) Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- March 13, 1975, Tehran Prabhupāda: ...Meeting was very successful. You were present in Delhi? Very, very successful. All big, big men came, and they realized. We are going to have again that for two days. That is being arranged. Paramahaṁsa: In Delhi, yes. That will be nice. Prabhupāda: And who is thinking in that way...? We are thinking like that. Keep it covered. Paramahaṁsa: On the table there? *Prabhupāda: Yes. (Child talking and Prabhupāda says something in Hindi) Dr. Ghora (?), you can say. The aim should be saṁsiddhiḥ hari*-toṣaṇam. But if we don't care for this proposition... They do not know what is God, neither we don't want to satisfy Him, "He may be satisfied or not satisfied. Let us go on with our business." (Hindu) Indian man (1): A lot of dangers will be there. We'll be putting ourself into trouble. *Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in trouble. Even last war, when the trouble was too much, they began to go to the church. Even Churchill. And one gentleman-he is my Godbrother in Germany*-he told me, after this war many German men and women became atheist. Everyone went to the church and prayed. Especially women prayed for return of their husband, brother, father. And nobody returned. So they thought, "There is no God. So forget about all these things." People became atheist. So this risky civilization is going on. They don't want to know what is God, neither they want to satisfy Him. And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is just the opposite, that "Here is God. You satisfy Him." That's all. "Never mind what you are, but by your occupational duty you satisfy Him. That is perfection." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And this is taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa ultimately said this: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. In the beginning He said, yat karoṣi yat juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam: [Bg. 9.27] "Do it for Me." Yat karoṣi. It doesn't matter what you are doing. And very good work or bad work or anything, when He says, yat karoṣi, means "Whatever you are doing, do it, but the result give Me." Kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. This is His desire. And at last again He said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, and if somebody would say that "Simply I have to satisfy You? Then I have to satisfy others also. If I do not do, then I will be sinful," that, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't worry. If there is any reaction, not doing other duty, simply to surrender to Me, and if there is sinful reaction, then I'll give you protection. Don't worry." This is the conclusion. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all, without any malinterpretation. Everyone is interpreting in his own way. But we are not interpreting. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And it is becoming effective. Bhagavad-gītā was studied in the Western countries since a long time, since seventeenth century-but not like this. Before me, many swamis, yogis, they came to the Western countries, and most of them spoke on Bhagavad-gītā, but not a single person was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. But now they are becoming by hundreds because the Bhagavad-gītā is presented as it is. This is the comparison. We have got Christians, Mohammedans, then Buddhist, Africans. Everyone we have got in our society, all very devout executor of our mission. Now here is Mr. Attar. Now he is Atreya Ṛṣi. Whatever he is earning, he is spending for Kṛṣṇa. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. He is trying to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. So in the dictionary it is stated, "Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu god." He is not a Hindu god; *He is God. But He appeared in India. He remained in the Vedic culture. Lord Buddha was also Hindu. And he was in Vedic culture. Later on he spread his own mission. That is also Hindu culture, ahiṁsā, nonviolence. Lord Buddha... keśava dhṛta-buddha. The same Kṛṣṇa, His powerful avatāra, Lord Buddha. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We offer our prayers to Lord Buddha. Christ was also for twelve years in India. He... Christ, the word Christ and kristo, there is similarity. He also propagated love of God. That is Kṛṣṇa. So we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you are all Indians. It is your duty to see that the movement is pushed forward. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā: "By your life, by your money, by your good intelligence and by your words." Our mission is to spread the words of Kṛṣṇa. We don't manufacture anything. Why should we manufacture? Everything is there perfectly. What Kṛṣṇa says, it is perfect. If I manufacture something, that is imperfect because I am imperfect. So how can I speak perfectly, or how can I give perfect knowledge? It is not possible because I am defective, I commit mistake, I am sometimes illusioned. Why sometimes? Practically always. Everyone is thinking that he is this body*-he is Indian, he is American, he is Hindu, he is Muslim. That is illusion. He is not this body. Similarly, our senses are imperfect, and so long we are in the imperfect condition, if we teach, that means we cheat. I have no perfect knowledge, and still, I am trying to teach. That is cheating. Nobody should try to preach with imperfect knowledge. That is cheating. That is stated in the śāstra: bhrama, pramāda, vipralipsā and kāraṇa-patāvā. We are qualified with these imperfections, and therefore we cannot manufacture. Somebody says "in my opinion." So what is the value of your opinion? You are imperfect. If the child says "in my opinion," what is the value? Therefore we don't say, "in my opinion," "our opinion." We say "Kṛṣṇa says this," that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is... He says, Indian man (2): No, no. *Prabhupāda: So do that. Don't approach the cheater guru, bluffer guru, and be cheated. Stop this business. This has spoiled the whole spiritual atmosphere of the world. Take guru, the supreme guru, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when in Mahābhārata when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira performed rājasūya yajña, in the rājasūya yajña one person is elected the chief guest. So in that yajña many big, big demigods were present, and Bhīṣmadeva was present, Vyāsadeva was present, and many, many other saintly person, brāhmaṇa, from the whole universe were present. And Kṛṣṇa was decided to be accepted as the... Everyone agreed to accept Him as the chief guest. And the Śiśupāla, he protested. Then everyone was angry to kill him. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the guru by everyone. By our ācāryas, recent ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... I am not speaking of the loafer class, but those who are recognized ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya... They accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru and follow His instruction and try to convince others. "Others" means even your family members. That is success of life. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari*-toṣaṇam. Why should you lead your life blindly? This human life is meant for enlightenment, supreme enlightenment, and this is supreme enlightenment, to understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and preach it as far as you can. If not, you can preach amongst your family members. This is perfection of life. What is that verse? Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Nitai: Prabhupāda: Next? Na ca tasmān... Nitai: *Prabhupāda: So this is the easiest process, that you learn Bhagavad*-gītā. Don't misinterpret. There is no question of misinterpretation. They, by their, what is called, crippled mind, they misinterpret. Otherwise there is no question of. Where is the difficulty to understand? So Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who preaches this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, He is My dearmost person." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then that is saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. That is wanted. Boliye. Any question? (Pause) No question? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. There must be paripraśna, yes or no? Indian man (3): Well, the question was the satisfaction of the God, that we satisfy our Lord. Now, what are the means to satisfy the Lord? *Prabhupāda: That He says: that you preach, you become guru. That is already explained. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad*-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. That is... He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Everything is there. Where is the difficulty? If I say that "You do this. I will (be) satisfied," you do that; you will satisfy me. What is the difficulty? Indian man (4): And the part where you, which you said to preach Kṛṣṇa's... to attain the satisfaction of..., but what you have already said, that one should first know himself first, basic... Prabhupāda: Himself? *Indian man (4): What Kṛṣṇa stands and what Kṛṣṇa means in the Bhagavad*-gītā. *Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Why don't you...? Indian man (4): Yes. When we say we start preaching, so first one... somebody has to know himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man (4): Then he can come forward for preaching. *Prabhupāda: So why don't you know yourself? Why you are in darkness? Kṛṣṇa says everything in the Bhagavad*-gītā. In the beginning He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam [Bg. 2.13]. In this body there is the occupier of the body. So if you think yourself that you are this body, that is your wrong. You try to understand that "I am not this body; *I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." That's the fact. So this human life is meant for that purpose. So why should you not do it? Why should you keep yourself in darkness? That is very risky. If I keep myself in the darkness like cats and dogs, that "I am this body," then my life is very risky. By nature's way we are given this opportunity, human form of life. If we do not understand our position, if we remain in the same category, bodily concept of life, then we are missing the chance. After all, you have to change this body. It is not permanent settlement that you shall remain Indian, you shall remain American. No. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. You have to change. Now what kind of body you are going to get, that you have to understand. That is responsibility. So this child, this boy, if he remains in darkness that he will continue this childhood body, and father, mother will take care of him-"I don't require to take any education"-then future life, when he will be young man, he will be not nicely posted for want of education. Then how miserable it will be. Similarly, if we don't take care of this education that "I am not this body, my future body will be different, and if I do not know what kind of different body I'll have to accept..." Suppose we accept some lower grade of body. Then what is my future? So if we don't understand this philosophy as Kṛṣṇa teaches, asmin dehe dehinaḥ, "Within this body there is the occupier, soul," so if you do not understand, that is very risky life. Nature's way must go on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. We cannot control over the nature's way. And we get our next body according to the association of different modes of nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya. Everything is there. Why do you not study? Why you remain in darkness? What is this life? Is that very good life? You, what is your name? Atreya Ṛṣi: Mr. Sahani. Prabhupāda: Sahani, yes. Mr. Sahani, do you think is that very nice life, to remain in darkness for our future life? Mr. Sahani: Not at all. *Prabhupāda: That's it. (says something in Hindi regarding daṇḍavat) (chuckles) That is very good. That is our process. Sāṅkhya*-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ. The Vaiṣṇavas, they chanted with a numerical strength, sāṅkhya-pūrvaka. Sāṅkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ. Nāma means chanting of the holy name. Gana means also prayer. And also daṇḍavat. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he took vow that "So many times I will offer daṇḍavat." So these things are... If this child simply offers daṇḍavat to the Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu, so it will not go in vain. Even if he does not know any śāstra, simply offers obeisances, that will also be taken into credit. It is so nice thing. Sāṅkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ kālāvasāni-kṛtau. So therefore Deity worship is recommended. So if anyone does not know anything, if he simply comes and offers obeisances, that is also nice. Therefore Deity worship is important for the common man. Even if he does not know anything, if he simply comes and offer obeisances, if he little dances with kīrtana, everything will be taken into credit. Then one day he will become a devotee. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. The jñānavān, the so-called jñānavān they do not care for the Deity-puffed up. But Kṛṣṇa says this class of jñānavān, after many, many births, when he'll be actually jñānavān, he will offer obeisance. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. It is so difficult and easy. A jñānavān, after many, many births, come to this conclusion, "Here is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. I offer my obeisances." And the same obeisances can be offered by a child without being jñānavān, but the result is the same. If you touch fire after studying the physics and chemistry, and without studying physics and chemistry if you touch fire, the result is the same. So our request to everyone is not to keep oneself in darkness and spoil the boon of human life, but try to understand your position and try to understand how to satisfy the Supreme. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the summary of all Vedic literatures. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if you try to preach, then you become most recognized person of Kṛṣṇa. Na ca tasmāt manuṣyeṣu kaścit me priya kṛtta... And our mission is to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. And He says, "In this way I become most satisfied." Then where is the difficulty? [break] Indian man (5): ...our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is there any different methods? *Prabhupāda: No, methods I have all explained. Kṛṣṇa bhakta means do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-śilānam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just like Arjuna did. He did not like to fight with his cousin*-brothers, but after hearing instruction of Kṛṣṇa, he said, "Yes," naṣṭo mohaḥ, "my illusion is now over." Smṛtir labdhā: "I have got my consciousness." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: [Bg. 18.73] "I shall act as You are saying, that's all." This is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. We may have different decisions. That is natural. But when you agree to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to agree. Kṛṣṇa does not force; He says, "Do this like this," and if we agree, then we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Devotee (1): Can you satisfy equally as brahmacārī or gṛhastha or sannyāsī? Can you satisfy equally in whatever path you have chosen? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The satisfaction is the point. So just like the head of the family, he is asking his wife to do something, children to do something, servant to do something. So if they are doing according to the order, then it is very nice. The head of the family is satisfied, and everything is going nicely. Anywhere, in office also. There are different officers, secretaries, managers, and the director. He has given: "You do this. You do that. You do that. You do that." So if they do their duty, then everything is nice. Just like in your body. Here also we have got different parts. The hand does something, the leg something, the belly something, the brain something. What the brain does, the leg does not do. But the leg is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. The brain is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. Hand is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. That is required, not that what is brain doing, the leg has to do the same. The leg may do his own way, but the aim is satisfaction of the order of the... I ask the leg, "Please take me from this room to that room." That is leg's duty. I am satisfied. So not that Kṛṣṇa is only one*-sided. That they do not understand. Kṛṣṇa is the īśvara, controller of the whole creation. So if He gives you something to do for His satisfaction, you do that. It does not matter whether you are doing the same thing. The same example: Leg is doing something else than the hand, hand is doing something else than the brain, but the real purpose is to satisfy the whole. So Kṛṣṇa is not asking Vyāsadeva to come and fight in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Vyāsadeva is doing his own work. He is writing literature, Vedavyāsa. He is asking Arjuna to fight. But although the activities are different-Vyāsadeva is writing Vedānta-sūtra, and Arjuna is fighting-but both of them are equally important. Kṛṣṇa says Arjuna, bhakto 'si: "You are My very dear friend," and priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3], "Therefore I shall speak to you about this Bhagavad-gītā." Kṛṣṇa did not say, "Call Vyāsadeva. I have to speak Bhagavad-gītā. He is learned scholar." No. Arjuna was not a learned scholar; *he was a warrior. And he was a gṛhastha, busy in politics. Still, He called Arjuna, "Yes, I shall speak to you Bhagavad*-gītā." Why? Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So to become devotee doesn't require that one has to become very big scholar or very rich man. No. Simply you have to agree, "Yes, Sir, what You say I shall do," that's all. This is bhakta. To become bhakta is not very difficult thing. You simply agree, "Kṛṣṇa, what You say, I shall do," that's all. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava [Bg. 18.73]. That is, perfection. So Kṛṣṇa wants this. This is the common formula for all. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu abhidhāsyati [Bg 18.68]. "Anyone who speaks about this Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān pari..., he is very dear to Me." So agree to that proposal, that "We shall speak to everyone about this Bhagavad-gītā as Kṛṣṇa has spoken." Then you become a bhakta. That's all. You can do it in your office. You can do in your home. Kṛṣṇa does not say that "First of all you become a sannyāsī and you change your dress and become like these Kṛṣṇa conscious men." No. You remain in your position. But do this. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Sthāne sthitaḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain in your place, sthane sthitaḥ. Simply you hear from Kṛṣṇa or from Kṛṣṇa's representative and do it, that's all. Where is the difficulty? Boliye. Mr. Sahani: No difficulty. Prabhupāda: It is my request that you are so many respectable Indian gentlemen here, and we are preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. You come forward. You learn more and join this mission. It is not meant for Mr. Attar; *it is meant for everyone, especially for the Indians. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that also, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. Bhārata-bhūmite means in the land of Bhāratavarṣa. Bhārata-bhūmi is considered puṇya-bhūmi. So you are fortunate that you have taken birth as human being in India. It is the result of much pious activities. Indians are naturally Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now this gentleman, Mr. George, what is his name, full name? Devotee (2): John(?) (Jordon?) Prabhupāda: Oh. The Canadian ambassador. He came to see me. He saw me in Delhi when our function was going on. He was speaking; he was so surprised. So this movement has got good potency, and every one of you join. Guest: Me? Prabhupāda: Yes? Guest: My question? Prabhupāda: Yes, question, you question something. *Guest: It's just people... For example, could the president of the Coca*-Cola company find the way to Kṛṣṇa, to serve Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone can serve. Cola company? *Guest: Coca*-Cola company. *Prabhupāda: Coca*-Cola. Guest: Somebody that manufactures a product which is basically destructive. *Prabhupāda: No. Coca*-Cola company... Of course, we advise... Kṛṣṇa advises, yat karoṣi. It includes Coca-Cola company. But He said yat karoṣi: "Whatever you do." Kṛṣṇa said, "Whatever you do." So that includes all kinds of activities. But will the Coca-Cola company agree to give the profit to Kṛṣṇa? Then he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. The profit he will enjoy for his wine and woman, that's all, not for Kṛṣṇa. That is the difficulty. Guest: Can the profit of the manufacture of something which is manufactured purely for profit be turned to good? *Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gives to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna. He fought. He killed. Killing is not good business, but he killed on the advice of Kṛṣṇa, and he became a bhakta by killing. Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si. And what did he do? He killed, that's all. This is an example. Of course, bhakta never kills. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna was not willing to kill. But when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it, so this is my first business. Never mind I shall go to hell," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. "By killing my brother I may go to hell. It doesn't matter. But Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That is my first business." Kṛṣṇa sometimes pretended to be sick. And many physicians came, they could not cure Him, headache. So He suggested that "I think if My devotee gives their dust of foot on My head, then I'll be cured." Then every devotee was approached that "Give your dust of feet. Kṛṣṇa wants it." Even Nārada. So Nārada said, "How it is possible I shall give my dust of feet to Kṛṣṇa? No, no, no, it is not possible." But when the person, messenger, approached gopīs in Vṛndāvana and they were informed that "Kṛṣṇa is sick. So He wanted the dust of feet of the devotee to be applied on His head. Nobody gave it. So we have come last to you," so immediately: "Yes, yes, take it, take it." Immediately. So so much dust was collected. And Kṛṣṇa was cured. So this is gopīs. Others thought that "If I give the dust of my feet to Kṛṣṇa, I may go to hell," but the gopīs thought, "Let us go to hell, but let Kṛṣṇa be cured." Therefore the gopīs are the first-class devotee. They do not care for themselves. That is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargabhir ya kalpitāḥ: "The process of worship as it was planned by the gopīs in Vṛndāvana, there is no comparison. That is the highest devotion." They did not care for themself. They simply wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa was playing flute at dead of night, all the gopīs were flying to Kṛṣṇa. His father, his husband-"Where you are going in this dead of...? Where you are going?" They didn't care. Society, friendship, love*-all sacrificed: "We shall go to Kṛṣṇa." This is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. That is the highest perfection of life, to sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. "Only Kṛṣṇa should be satisfied." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that is not very easy job. But one can do if he likes, everything for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says also, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Gopīs did not care for social, for religious or family and nothing. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. They went: "Kṛṣṇa now is calling. Let us go." This is the typical example of sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. So, of course, it is not possible to become on the standard of gopīs. That is not possible. But at least we shall try to follow these devotees. Arjuna is there, gopīs are there, Uddhavas are there-many devotees. Lord Brahmā is there. Lord Śiva is there. Kapiladeva is there. The four Kumāras are there. Bhīṣmadeva is there. Prahlāda Mahārāja is there. Janaka Mahārāja is there. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is there. So mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If we simply follow these big, big devotees, then our life is successful. For authorized persons' name, to follow them: Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran Prabhupāda: How long you have come here in Iran? Ambassador: Nice to see you again. Not that I have felt that far away. Prabhupāda: You are looking little reduced than before, in health. Ambassador: Oh, perhaps slightly older. Prabhupāda: You are not as old as I am. What is your age? *Ambassador: I am fifty*-six. Prabhupāda: Oh, you are just like my child. My first child was born 1921. What is your birth date? Ambassador: That was three years earlier. So there you are. *Prabhupāda: 1918? In that year I was married. I was student at that time. I was student, 1900 up to '20. Then I joined Gandhi's noncooperation movement and gave up my education. His points were to give up English education, English court, English*-manufactured goods, in this way. Ambassador: How did you feel about Gandhiji spiritually? Prabhupāda: He was a good gentleman, that's all. He had no spiritual asset. Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs) *Prabhupāda: He said or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia-he was governor of Bengal*-he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He was a politician, that's all. Ambassador: But God uses whatever material is there and He used him. Prabhupāda: No, it was God's desire. You see? Without His desire, otherwise how such a vast British power could be driven away by the noncooperation movement? Of course, it was very nicely planned because the Britishers were ruling over India by the cooperation of the Indian. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: So when that cooperation was withdrawn, naturally they could not... They were trying to the last point, but when the Subhas Bose's organization, INA... You have studied that Indian history. Yes. INA. Indian National Army. So this National Army was formed by Subhas Candra Bose outside India with the cooperation of Hitler and Tojo. He's formed that, what is called, Indian government outside India, the INA, the soldiers... The INA soldiers means all the soldiers that were arrested in the battlefield, they were given to Subhas Candra Bose, either by the Japanese or by the Germans. So the soldiers took this opportunity; *they voluntarily surrendered to the enemy. So when the Britishers understood that the soldiers, Indian soldiers, are now noncooperating, then they decided, "No, no more. It is not possible." So they voluntarily withdrew, that Sir Sirpiting(?) Lawrence, the secretary of state for India. Then they voluntarily settled up. And they settled up means the last parting kick was partition*-Pakistan and India. And they partitioned in such a way that these two people will fight everlong. That is going on. They are very good politicians. So after all, it is all... There is a verse in the Bhagavad-gītā: Ambassador: If they hadn't had such a guilty conscience themselves... Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: ...they wouldn't have left easily. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was no need. Every country requires good government. So if somebody gives good government and keeps the people nice, happy, and people hasn't got any interest that the... Now they have made like that. Formerly, at least in India, they didn't care whether it is being ruled by the Mohammedans or by the Englishmen or foreign... They wanted peaceful life, that's all. So the Mohammedans, they made their home in India, the Moguls. They were not exploiting India and taking the money outside. Although the Moguls were very luxurious, but they were spending money in India, India's money in India. And, of course, they accuse, the Mohammedan government was very bad. But I think if it was so bad, how they could rule over India for eight hundred years? And in those days Indians were in their own culture. They did not lose their culture, Hindu culture. The Britishers peacefully killed the Hindu culture, Vedic culture, yes. Ambassador: I saw where they killed it much more effectively, and that was in Ceylon. Prabhupāda: Ceylon, oh. Ambassador: India's too big to kill, so it lived. But Ceylon was practically finished. There is nothing of its own left. They had to reinvent it after they got rid of the British. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: They'd lost their dance. They'd lost their... Everything really national had gone. Prabhupāda: That was not... Ambassador: Even Buddhism had gone. It was revived by foreigners. Prabhupāda: Oh, Dutch. Dutch people, there were. Ambassador: Germans especially. But now may I ask you while I have the chance? You have had so much to do with bringing the dharma to the West. What is your idea? What is your mission? It seems to me, in many ways there is a transfer of the essential spirit going West, because the interest is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: And what is left in the East is so often just the materialism imitated from the West among many young people now. Prabhupāda: Where, in the East? Yes. Ambassador: In the East. So there's been a crossover taking place. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Ambassador: Do you see it like that? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual. Ambassador: Yes, it's already beginning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The material life means animal life. Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three? Paramahaṁsa: Two or three. Prabhupāda: In where? Paramahaṁsa: Caracas. Prabhupāda: Caracas, yes. So one of the crocodile was on the land, and two were in the water. So in the water they were very living, alive. But in the land it was like dead. Ambassador: I had two crocodiles in my bath in Delhi for a month. Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā. You like them very much? Ambassador: Given by the chief minister of Rajastan, and I had to get them to Canada. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: I never managed to love them. I can love most things, but not crocodiles. *Prabhupāda: No, they are also God's creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Those who are spiritually advanced, they see equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na ka..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. Samaḥ sarveṣu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance in devotional life-equality. That equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible. Ambassador: Of course. Prabhupāda: Not possible. If they unite, if they try to unite on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is possible. Otherwise not possible. But we are all part and parcel of God. Accidentally, or somehow or other, we are now all differently dressed although we are one. They have to come to this understanding. Upādhi, designation. Now just like you are Canadian; I am Indian. Then I was just... In the noon I was thinking about the, what is called, goo goo, dodo? Do? The bird? Do? What is called? There is one class of bird, do? Atreya Ṛṣi: Doves, doves. Prabhupāda: So there are doves, there are pigeons, there are sparrows, there are crows. Now Iran, the same doves, same... Why they are not called "Iranian sparrow"? Why they are called only sparrow? Ambassador: (chuckles) It's only people. *Prabhupāda: So simply we have designated, "Iranian," "Indian," and "Canadian," "German," this, that. So we have to give up this designation. Then there will be unity. Otherwise not. But they are very much proud of this designation. Therefore bhakti means sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.170], when one is completely free from designation. The designation is material. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. And the whole world is being ruled by designation. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that." Ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8], this is. Ambassador: There is a hierarchy of consciousness, of course. But it's not... Prabhupāda: So that consciousness should be without designation. If I try to develop my consciousness with designation, it will not be effective. It will not be effective at least in the matter of advancing spiritual consciousness. That we have to give up. Now in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we have got men from all parts of the world, but they are not thinking in terms of their original national designation. They are not thinking. They do not think that they are American or they are Indian or Canadian or African or Hindu, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vai..., nothing of the sort. Ambassador: Of course, there can be ambition that is essentially ego attached to an idea of achieving consciousness also. Prabhupāda: That consciousness will not help him. That will rather check him. Ambassador: Yes, exactly. *Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, if I die with designation, then I will have to accept again the body. So the mind is the criterion, contamination. We get different types of body on account of mind being contaminated. Ambassador: Contaminated. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease, then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with some material designation, then you have to accept similar body, by nature's way. Kāranaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. Because the mind associated with a particular type of the modes of material nature, he got this body. There are three qualities: sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Now you mix up. By first mixing it becomes nine, and again mixing up, it becomes eighty-one. And each quality, there are thousands and thousands of variety. And that means by mixing up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of forms of life. So it is very... God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and awards the body accordingly. It is not man-made law, that there may be some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, either smallpox or cholera or this or that, you must develop that disease. Therefore we should be desireless. Desireless means material desire. That material desire begins with the designation. That... The child, he has got a childish body, and he plays like a child. The same child, when he will get a youthful body, he will do like that. The soul is the same. But on account of different type of body he is acting differently. That is practical. A small child, in the childhood he will talk like nonsense. People will enjoy it. But the same child, when he is grown up and he talks like nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed. The circumstance has changed. This is the real education, that we are changing body, and according to our bodily situation we are acting differently. That they do not understand. There is no school, college or education about the soul and the soul's changing different position of different body, and in this way he remains materially entangled. And the real relief is to get him out of this bodily concept of life and advance in spiritual concept of... Ambassador: So bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Right you are. You are intelligent and... Yes. That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep him within this material body. And his real relief is how to get out of this material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This is required, in Bhagavad-gītā. After giving up this body no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more this material body. That is education. And the whole Vedic education is meant for this purpose. [break] ...in his original spiritual life, that is mukti. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that*-to educate people how to achieve his original consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is... Ambassador: Well, this in one form or another is the aim of any true tradition. Prabhupāda: Hmm? True? Ambassador: Tradition. Prabhupāda: Tradition? Ambassador: Religion. *Prabhupāda: No. Tradition, religion, they are all material. They are also all designation. I am thinking I am Hindu, you are thinking you are Christian, he is thinking as Buddhist*-these are all designation. Ambassador: Within each of these there is the esoteric. *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is material. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up all this type of false religion." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That means come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ekam, only one. So unless one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is in trouble of this material condition. And our difficulty is that when we want to convince another person about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he thinks that "I am Hindu, I am Christian, I am Mohammedan, so they are trying to proselytize me." That is the difficulty. Ambassador: No, it was not that I was really saying. Rather that what I have heard from others comes to the same thing as you are saying. *Prabhupāda: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is all right, because that type of religion or that system of religion is first*-class which teaches for this thing, that "Come to platform of God consciousness and love God." Then that is first-class system of religion. It doesn't matter what is the designation. But where is that happening? Ambassador: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many influences, I think... *Prabhupāda: No. The influence should be only Kṛṣṇa, or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of "Kṛṣṇa"*-God. But they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form, what is His qualities-nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form, but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is Śaṅkara, the pañcopāsana. But still, Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms. The goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Śiva, the sun, then... Therefore there are a section who are the sun worshiper, or fire worshiper. Original Iranians were like that. So that is Vedic culture. There... Vedic culture means there are many demigods, but the original God is accepted-Viṣṇu. And original to Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. And Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior form or superior authority than Me." And that is confirmed by Lord Brahmā. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. Īśvaraḥ means controller. There are different grades of controller, but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam: "Unto Me alone." (to devotee:) What is that? Parivrājakācārya: It is apple juice. *Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is scientific, authorized. People has to give little attention. Then they will understand. Therefore we are publishing so many books, only about Kṛṣṇa. In every page you will find "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." Either in Kṛṣṇa book or in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta or in the Bhāgavata or in The Nectar of Devotion or in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, the word is Kṛṣṇa. That is simply explained in different way. Ambassador: What does the word actually mean? Kṛ is the root for "making," isn't it? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, kṛṣ. Kṛṣ means karṣati, "attraction" or "cultivating." "Cultivation." Just like cultivator, he, digging the earth, that is also karṣati. And there is another word in Bhagavad*-gītā, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhāni indriyāṇi..., karsati. Find out this verse. Manaḥ-saṣṭhāni indriyāṇi prakṛti-sthani karṣati. Fifteenth Chapter. Karṣati. That is from kṛṣ. Ambassador: Kṛṣ, then, has attractiveness and it has cultivator. Prabhupāda: And cultivating, yes. Ambassador: Yes. In Greek my name is also "cultivate." In Greek the origin of my name is "cultivate." Gheragoss.(?) Prabhupāda: And this Greek work is kristo. There is a word in Greek. It is called kristo. And Kṛṣṇa is sometimes pronounced by ordinary man as Krsta. And that kristo word means "love," if I am not wrong, that Greek word. And from that kristo the word Christ has come. Ambassador: Karitas(?), yes. Prabhupāda: So there is some connection of Kṛṣṇa with these things. What is that? Ambassador: There are so many parallels between Kṛṣṇa and Christ. Prabhupāda: So many. Ambassador: "Born in the cave." Yes. Prabhupāda: What is that? Nitai: *Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence. Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the platform of love. So many institution-philanthropy, international and the United Nation*-the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling. They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own way. The Kṛṣṇa solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of love. Ambassador: Yes, it's the interattractiveness even in a planetary scale that holds the world. *Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu gives very shortcut formula that "You sit together, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be solved." Very simple thing: "Sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That also they will not do. There is no loss. Let us make an experiment*-that also we are not executing. What is the loss? If we sit together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we are not losing anything. If there is some gain, why not make an experiment? So if you propose this to the United Nation, he'll think of me, "A crazy fellow." Ambassador: Like we did together in Delhi. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You have seen it. They were very much eager. They were very much eager: "Swamiji continue." And the others, like Communist and others, they became upset. I have seen many big, big officers. They were chanting, returning from the office in the office dress, and they were chanting and dancing. And you have seen the crowd, twenty thousand, thirty thousand people. The same thing happened in Calcutta. Now the government did not give us again that land. Yes. Last time when we held that conference in Delhi... Paramahaṁsa: On the LIC Grounds? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. They gave us that Tal Kotara Park, you know? That is in the jungle. Nobody could reach there, and they gave us place there. (Ambassador laughs) Still, there were not less ten thousand people. It was not easily approachable. The motorcar cannot go. You have to leave your car three miles away to come there. Ambassador: I know the place. Prabhupāda: Yes. You know very well. You are (were?) in Delhi. Ambassador: It is a difficult thing to get to. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they gave us place. At the last moment they rejected. First of all they gave. Then, at the last moment, the municipality said, "No, this land cannot be given to any religious function." Rejected. And offered, "If you like, you can take this place." So we had no other alternative to accept it. We advertised that "We are going to hold this ceremony," and the authority rejected at the eleventh hour and offered the Tal Kotara place. We had to accept it. And the government indirectly giving us so many hindrances in India. Yes. They do not like. One of the important member of the cabinet, he frankly said that "We do not want that your movement will increase very fast in India." Because they know it, Indira Gandhi and company, that India is naturally inclined to Kṛṣṇa. And if the selected people of the world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my idea. I wanted to start this movement from India. But nobody cooperated. So then I decided to come to America. And my plan was successful. Ambassador: What was your connection with McGill? I heard from... Prabhupāda: (Sic:) McGill. McGill I was... Ambassador: You preached (?) first in McGill? Prabhupāda: No, I was lecturing only. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's [break] Prabhupāda: He sent his first book... Ambassador: Yes. Prabhupāda: ...in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was the first origin of this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man. And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations under this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. I think I have given this hint in the *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Nitai: *Teachings of Lord Caitanya*. Yes. Ambassador: Well, I am very happy to have had this chance to be with you. How long will you be here? Prabhupāda" : Two days. Ambassador: That's all. And then? Prabhupāda: I am going to India. We have to hold the Lord Caitanya's birthday anniversary. And open our Vṛndāvana temple. In Bombay we have got very nice land purchased, and the government will not give us sanction for the temple. The... I approached the Maharastra governor through another friend governor. The governor of Uttar Pradesh, he is my friend. So I explained to him, "This this is the position. You request the governor to give me sanction." So he has very ardently requested, explaining the whole thing about my position, my... He is member of this movement, and still, he is neglecting. He has said no. Yet... But no answer. Ambassador: You know, when I had Mr. Trudeau, our prime minister, visiting India in '71, first place I took him was Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Who? Ambassador: Our prime minister of Canada, Mr. Trudeau. Prabhupāda: Oh. Ambassador: So we went the first place... Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. Ambassador: Vṛndāvana temple. Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana still there is little glimpse of spiritual ideas in India. But the government is trying to spoil this place also. Starting oil refinery. Ambassador: In Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambassador: And that in the name of progress. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. They have already opened some factory. One factory is there in Mathurā, in... What is? Who preserve the fruits in cans, what they are called? Parivrājakācārya: Cannery. *Prabhupāda: Cannery? Anyway, so when they boil this onion, up to ten miles the good smell spread. (laughter) You see? And the whole atmosphere of Vṛndāvana is spoiled. Similarly, they are trying to refine oil, and the refuse will be thrown in the Yamunā. So the river Yamunā will be spoiled. Nobody will go to take bath. This is Indian government's policy. They think that this so*-called spiritual fanaticism of India is the cause of India's material degradation. So this must be killed. Like the Russians. Ambassador: Um hm. I know they think that sometimes. Even here there are people who think that. Prabhupāda: Oh, they are thinking like that? But I heard that the king is very pious. *Ambassador: One of the big people here, I said to him-after I argued about this for hours*-I said, "You are Western and I am Eastern, not the other way around." (laughs) Thank you very much. I shall take your leave? Prabhupāda: So, give him prasāda. Give him the whole plate. (laughs) You can take whole plate. So I am very glad to see you. Ambassador: Yes. And she was hoping to come later, but if you're only going to be here two days I don't know whether she will... Paramahaṁsa: We're leaving the 15th, evening of the 15th. Ambassador: Yes, but this is the 13th now. I will take this to her. Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ambassador: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. (Ambassador apparently leaves) [break] (end) Morning Walk Excerpt -- March 14, 1975, Iran Prabhupāda: ...they assemble together and people are unhappy. They have renounced democracy, eh? Communist? Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, they have some sort of democracy themselves. Prabhupāda: No, they are dictatorship. Actually Stalin's dictatorship was going on. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It's all dictatorship. Democracy is also a dictatorship, but by election. They elect a fool, and then he can be..., do whatever he wants. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: He will try to be as powerful as he can. (end) Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran *Yoga Student: ...to chant the names of Nitāi*-Gaurāṅga before we encourage them so much to chant the mahā-mantra? *Prabhupāda: No. Why? Now, what is the difference, Nitāi*-Gaurāṅga and Hare Kṛṣṇa? Nitāi-Gaurāṅga and Hare Kṛṣṇa, there is no difference. Nitāi-Gaurāṅga is also nice. Whatever he finds convenient, let him chant. Yoga student: This country, which was, once at one time followed the Āryan path of Zoroastrianism, which is now practices primarily Islam although having absorbed many of the original elements in it. Do you have a recommendation as to how people of this country might feel the grace of Kṛṣṇa, perhaps even within the forms of their own traditional practice? Prabhupāda: What is that traditional practice? Yoga student: They're in... Apart from Zoroastrianism, the majority of traditional practice now is Islamic of the Shiite sect. Prabhupāda: What is that philosophy? Yoga student: That involves the prayer of three to five times a day of the Shiist... Prabhupāda: Prayer five times? Yoga student: Well, it's the Islamic prayer five times a day, but the Shiist compress it to three times. It's the same prayer. Prabhupāda: Why? Yoga student: Because they are permitted to say two of the prayers at noon and two of the prayers in the evening at one time, rather than spreading them through the afternoon and the... Prabhupāda: So why they are disobeying the order of Muhammad? Yoga student: Yes. The... They follow... It's essentially the same practice as the... Prabhupāda: No, you cannot amend on the words of Muhammad if you are a true Mussulman. Yoga student: I don't think they have to amend it. They're... Prabhupāda: Why? There was five. Why they have made three? That is amendment. You cannot do that. Yoga student: It has been maintained that Ali..., that this was the practice of Ali. Prabhupāda: What is that? Yoga student: That Ali prayed at noon, in the afternoon... Atreya Ṛṣi: Ali, the representative of Muhammad. *Yoga student: He's the brother*-in-law..., the son-in-law... Hazrad(?) Ali. Prabhupāda: Ali, Ali. Ali Hussein. No. *Yoga student: Hussein is his son. Ali is the cousin and the son*-in-law of the prophet Muhammad. But can they feel the grace of Kṛṣṇa within this framework, within the framework of their dietary laws and their..., in opening up the experience of Kṛṣṇa to them? Prabhupāda: No, no. If one wants to follow Koran, let him follow strictly that. No halfway mixing. Yoga student: Then preaching in Iran should be essentially to those people who are fallen away from their traditional path. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is fallen. They are simply amending and concoction. That is not good. Why they should amend? [break] ...himself in what relationship with God? Yoga student: With God? He presented himself as the last expression of the divine revelation in the West. Prabhupāda: No, what was his relationship? Just like Christ, he presented himself as the son of God. So what is the position of Muhammad? Yoga student: He presented himself as a man, as considered by Muslims as the perfect man. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: The disciple of God. Yoga student: And he was the perfect expression of the divine manifestation in human terms. He was not a divine figure as Christ or Kṛṣṇa. He was simply a man, and who was the mouthpiece of the divine word. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Allah akbar? Yoga student: It means God, the greatest. Prabhupāda: Greatest. Yoga student: Yes. Akbar is being the superlative of kabirsh(?). Prabhupāda: And Muhammad is the greatest? No. He is subordinate. Yoga student: No. And in fact Muslims object to their religion being called Mohammedanism because it implies that they worship Muhammad, whereas in fact they feel that they go straight to God, to Allah, which... and that Muhammad simply was a messenger. Prabhupāda: That's good. Yoga student: And they regard... They call their religion Islam, which means submission. Prabhupāda: That's very good. Yoga student: The Muslim is he who submits. Prabhupāda: Then God is the greatest, and we are finite, limited. We are not greatest. And our business is to serve Him. What is that? Yoga student: Our business is to serve Him. Precisely as was said last night, our business is to satisfy Him. Prabhupāda: That's it. Yoga student: There is a tradition, and there's a body of forty traditions, which are called the sacred traditions, one of which says that these are the words of God as enunciated through Muhammad, one of them saying that "The more you strive towards Me, the more you love Me, the closer I come to you." Prabhupāda: Oh, that's it. Then the ultimate goal is how to love God. Yoga student: Yes. *Prabhupāda: That is very good. That is our philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. Premā pumārtho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says, "That is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him." That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaiṣṇava dharma in a crude form like the Christian. So we can amalgamate them all if they are sane men. I suggested that there are many churches vacant. If they give us these churches we shall install Deity-Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva*-and along with them we shall worship Lord Jesus Christ also. Similarly, we can do Muhammad. There is no harm. But they are against this Deity worship, eh? Mohammedans? Yoga student: Yes, they are. That sort of expression. And yet, amongst the Sufi poets... Prabhupāda: Deity is also expression, form is also expression, but they do not understand it. Yoga student: But the Sufis do, because in the Sufi... Prabhupāda: They have got form worship, Sufis? Yoga student: They don't worship form as such, but they speak of it in the poetry. They say... In one poem of Hafez(?) there's a meeting between Hafez and his spiritual master. And he asks the spiritual master (recites verse in Parsi). He asked, "I asked him, 'What was this current, this chain of idols that we must worship?' And he replied so that my heart might moan, lament about the dark night..." Prabhupāda: "Dog night"? Yoga student: "...the dark night of ignorance of..." Prabhupāda: Oh, "dark night." Yoga student: "...separation from God." So that he used the form of expression of worship, the expression... Prabhupāda: Separation, how it is possible? Separation is expressed when there is separation between man to man or man to woman, person. Otherwise what is the meaning of separation? Yoga student: Separation from one's divine... Prabhupāda: Divine? This means must be person. They do not believe in the Personality of Godhead? Yoga student: They believe... The Sufis see the personality of Ali... Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking of the Sufis. I am talking of the original Islam. Yoga student: Well, the Sufis claim to be the original Muslims. Prabhupāda: Do the all the Muslims accept them? Then? Parivrājakācārya: There are about 780 different schools of Islam and different ideas. Prabhupāda: Then? We have to take the original. Otherwise misled. Yoga student: Well, I think the original path must be found in Sufism because that is the... Prabhupāda: Then, if the original path is followed, why it is named Sufism? Yoga student: Because there are those who have fallen away from it, just as in... Prabhupāda: Who has fallen, the Islam or the Sufist? Yoga student: I think the formalists have fallen away, like the jñānīs in Hinduism. Just as there's a dispute between the Shaivites and the Vaiṣṇavaites. Prabhupāda: So who are fallen, the original Islam or the Sufist? Yoga student: The Sufis are the original Islam. Prabhupāda: Sufis? What? I do not follow. Sufis? Nitāi: Sufis are the original... Prabhupāda: Original cult? Nitāi: Yes, that's what he said. Prabhupāda: Before Muhammad? Yoga student: No, springing from Muhammad. Prabhupāda: Then how you can say it is original? Yoga student: It is original. All the schools of laws, they've developed... Prabhupāda: No, if is the original, why they named differently? Yoga student: Because there are those who have fallen away from it, and they are the ones who use this name. The Sufis don't use the name about themselves. It's used by others who wish to... Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of Sufism? Literary meaning? Yoga student: Well, Sufism in a sense is what bhaktism is in the Hindu context. Prabhupāda: Bhakti means to offer service to the Lord. Does it mean? Yoga student: Absolutely. Prabhupāda: So then if the Lord is to be served, then He must be a person; otherwise where is the question of service? Yoga student: Well, the Sufis do see that, the personal aspect of the Lord... Prabhupāda: Unless one is person, how can I serve him? I cannot serve the air or the sky. I must serve a person. Love does not exist in the sky or in the air. It must be a person. Man or woman, it doesn't matter. Otherwise where there is love? Whom to love? Yoga student: The Sufis find love in these figures... For example, the Sufi Ib'n Araby(?), through of the face of a beautiful woman... Prabhupāda: Through the face of beautiful woman? Yoga student: Yes. Prabhupāda: So there the materialists also find. Yoga student: That is the material aspect, absolutely. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in Islam religion the form is rejected because it will come to that. As soon as they think of form, they think of this material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore we are strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apāni*-pādaḥ javano grahītā: "He has no legs and no hands." This is... means denying the form. And next he says, the Vedas say, javano grahītā: "He can accept whatever you offer to Him." That means God has no material form, but He has form; otherwise how He can accept? How He can understand my love? So therefore in the original Islamism the form is not accepted. So that is Vedic description, form and formless. Formless means no material form, and form means spiritual form, simultaneous. Just like I am, you are. I am within the body, but I am not this body. This form not I am. But wherefrom the form of the body came into existence? Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand because I have got hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater has got hand, the pant has got leg? So the pant practically is not the leg. The real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form; this is like pant, leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within, asmin dehe. That is not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there was no controversy, the spirit. But they cannot see. Therefore they say "formless." If it is formless, then how the outer form comes out? How it can be? The tailor makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hands, so it is concluded that the man for whom the coat is made, he has got form. How you can say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat, but we cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect with the eyes, not that the God is formless. God is not formless. Yoga student: God is seen in the form of the saints. *Prabhupāda: That is another. That is secondary. But God has got form. That is the conclusion. But we cannot see with our present eyes. That is described, ataḥ śrī*-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ [Brs. 1.2.234]. By your these blunt senses... The same thing. Just like I see you. What I see you? Your body. You see me-my body. And when the body is there and the soul is not there, then it is lump of matter. You kick it out and nobody will protest. If a dead body you smash with your legs and boots, nobody will say that "Why you are doing this?" But so long the soul is there, if somebody is smashed like that, immediately there will be protest from all side, "Why you are doing this?" So the people have no knowledge about the real form. Therefore they say formless. Atreya Ṛṣi: When the body changes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, how is it...? When our coat, size of the coat changes because our body grows bigger, the size of the coat is bigger. Shirt is bigger. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is spiritual form. It can take... It can become bigger, smaller, like that. Atreya Ṛṣi: But the form is the same. [break] *Prabhupāda: This has been... Body has been described as the dress. So the form of the dress cannot be there unless there is form of the person who puts on the dress. How can you deny it? Because the dress has got form, the person who puts on the dress must have form. How can you deny this argument? You cannot say "formless." It may be, you cannot see it. That is different thing. But it must be form and individual. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who are here, they were existing like that in the past, they are now existing, and they will exist in the same way." Therefore all are individual. Yoga student: With Kṛṣṇa can one say that Kṛṣṇa is the form that presents itself, of Godhead, which presents itself to man, and Bhagavān is the essential aspect? Prabhupāda: Bhagavān? Yes, in the original. Atreya Ṛṣi: Same as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Just like the sun. Sunshine is very big, and the sun globe is not so big. But which is important, the sunshine or the sun globe? Yoga student: But it's the glow which reaches man. Prabhupāda: Eh, these are example. Yoga student: He can't touch the globe because he would be consumed. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing, the qualitative change. But it is... There are five elements, so it is made of fire, that's all. As your body is made of earth, that sun globe or the sun*-god, the body is made of fire, that's all. There are other planets also; *the body is made of air because you do not find more than these five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky*-gross; *and subtle*-mind, intelligence and ego. So subtle, the same, but gross-somewhere the fire is prominent; somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent; somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth is prominent. Yoga student: Distinct from being permanent, the eternal? Atreya Ṛṣi: Is prominent. Yoga student: Oh, prominent. Atreya Ṛṣi: Earth is prominent. Yoga student: It's the prominent form in this material world. Atreya Ṛṣi: In this earth, in this planet, earth is the prominent of the five elements. Prabhupāda: Whole world, whole universe, they are made of these five elements. Atreya Ṛṣi: All the creation, the material creation, is made of five elements. Yoga student: What is the fifth besides earth, air, fire and water? Prabhupāda: Ether. Yoga student: Ether. How does ether distinguish... Prabhupāda: The sky. Ether is... Presence of ether by sound. Yoga student: How is ether distinct from air? Prabhupāda: Ether you cannot feel touch. Air you can feel touch. Parivrājakācārya: Based on the sense perception. On this planet, the bodies are made of earth. But there are other places, other planets, where the physical body is composed of a different combination. So one is predominantly air, another can be fire, another water, ether. Yoga student: But is ether a gross element as well? Atreya Ṛṣi: Ether is space. Prabhupāda: Yes, space. Yoga student: So in that sense it's a gross element. Prabhupāda: Yes. Parivrājakācārya: It's perceivable by the senses as sound. Yoga student: As sound. Prabhupāda: Ether is perceived by sound, air is perceived by touch. Then... Ether, air... Then fire you can see by vision. And then next, water, you can taste, and the earth you can smell. These five senses are there to appreciate these five kinds of elements. All right. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] *Devotee: These are some of my friends here, Prabhupāda. This is Kani Faizal(?). He is a director, theater director, and artist. He wants to do a play now from the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, the story of Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very good. Devotee: This is Carlos. This is Ali. I don't know your name. Maslud: Maslud. Prabhupāda: So all cultural people. All cultural people. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nice. Where is Atreya? Devotee: He's coming. Prabhupāda: Yes. India... Formerly your country was part of India, and you belong to the same culture. So far I understand, Iran means Āryan? So Āryan culture was practically all over the world. Āryan culture is based on God consciousness. So amongst the Āryans there is some conception of religion, either Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, Buddhist religion, Vedic religion, based on conception of God. So according to time, country, the ways of understanding may be little different, but the aim is God consciousness. That is Āryan civilization. So God is one; *God cannot be two. So the features of God or angle of vision of God may be different. So they have been summarized in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. (Aside:) You can come forward. One feature of God is impersonal. Just like the sunshine. Sunshine is spreading all over the universe. It is impersonal. But the quality of the sunshine is heat and light. The heat and light means energy. So as in the material calculation, the heat and light is the cause of all creation. Just like at the present moment there is not sufficient heat; *therefore the trees have no leaves. And as soon as there will be little more heat they will be all green. So you can take it that the creation of the foliage is due to the heat. Similarly light. So heat and light is the cause of all this material creation. And heat and light is coming from the sunshine, er, sun. Therefore heat becomes the origin of creation even in this material world. Similarly, there is another light. That is the original light. This is reflection. That is called brahmajyoti, spiritual light. So in this way one conception of God is like that. Another conception of God is: God is situated everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-sthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Because God is situated within the universe, within the atom, therefore they are existing. Just like the ātmā, or spirit soul, is situated in you, in me, in everyone. This is called Paramātmā feature. And at the ultimate end there is the person, God as person, the Supreme Person, the Supreme Being, a person like you and me*-we are person-but He is almighty, all-powerful. This is the conception of Absolute Truth: God, Paramātmā, and Brahmājyoti. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. This is the Sanskrit word. He is realized as Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person; *Paramātmā is all*-pervading, means localized, situated; *and Brahman means all*-pervading. All together-God. This is the idea. What is your idea of God? Young man: I find it very difficult to know the difference between truth and illusion. Prabhupāda: God is truth; *what is forgetfulness of God, that is illusion. God is truth. Just like the sun is present all the time, twenty*-four hours. But we say now there is no sun, at night. But that's not the fact. The fact is the sun is there; I cannot see. That is illusion. Not that God is not there. God is there. As exactly, same example, the sun is there at night, but I cannot see under certain condition. Therefore it is illusion. Our senses are imperfect; therefore sometimes we cannot understand or see God. If our senses are purified, then we can see God every moment. So, what is your idea of God? Young man: I, I... Something that I see sometimes in everything, the sameness in everything. Prabhupāda: No clear concept. Young man: I have no clear... *Prabhupāda: Yes. The clear conception of God is that originally He is person. Just like the same example, the sun. We can see every day the sun. (aside:) Can you give me that 7*-Up? The sun is there always, but at night we cannot see. At night we cannot see. That does not mean the sun is not there. Young man: But sharpening the senses, how does one sharpen one's senses? *Prabhupāda: Senses are imperfect. Just like we are very proud of our eyes to see, but you cannot see what is beyond the wall. Therefore it is conditioned. You cannot see without light. That, how you can be sure that your eyes are perfectly seeing? That is not possible, because the eyes can see under certain condition. So if it is conditioned, then it is not perfect. But the conditioned sight can be purified. Just like one is suffering from cataract. By surgical operation the cataract can be removed and he can see. Similarly, our senses are imperfect. If we purify the senses, then it will be possible to see God twenty*-four hours. That purification process is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Young man: Are human beings the only creations that can have Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. The cats and dogs cannot be trained up. But a human being can be trained up. Especially the Āryans, they can be trained up. They are advanced. Young man: More advanced than other races? Prabhupāda: By birth they are advanced. They have got intelligence. But for Kṛṣṇa consciousness everyone can be purified, even the non-Āryans. It is without any check. Ahaituky apratihatā. Apratihatā means without any material check. It is not a disqualification that one is not an Āryan, therefore he cannot understand God. No. He can also be trained up. Because it is spiritual, and we are all spiritual identities, so it is not difficult. Even one who is not spiritual at the present moment, but by training he can also become spiritual. Young man: In other words, one has to make an intellectual effort or at least in order to... Prabhupāda: It is not very highly intellectual. One has to understand first of all that he is not this body. That anyone can understand, that "I am changing my body, but I am there. Therefore I am not this body." Just like a child's coat, when he is young man, that coat does not fit him. So that young man means he has got another body. But the young man knows, he remembers, that he was a child. He was on the lap of his parents or his relatives. So that body is no longer existing. I have got a different body, but I who had the childhood body, I am existing. Is it very difficult to understand, any one of you? The body has changed. That's a fact. But I am the same. [break] What is that? Devotee: The demands of the body makes it... Atreya Ṛṣi: The attachment to the body... Prabhupāda: No, attachment to the body is not bad. Just like you have got a nice car. So you have got attachment for it. But you must know that you are not the car. That everyone can... A child can understand. But because I have got attachment for something, it does not mean I am that thing. I have got attachment for so many things. That is natural. Anything I possess, I have got attachment. But that does not mean I am that thing. But here the mistake is that because we have got attachment for the body, I am identifying myself as the body. That is ignorance, illusion. Young man: Yes, but one is egocentric... My egoism is very close to my body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone says "I am." But the mistake is: he is thinking "I am this body." That... When one is in knowledge, he understands that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." The "I am" is there. But "I am" is now falsely identified with this body. That has to be cured. Then spiritual knowledge begins. Young man: When one is aware of that fact, that he is not the body? Prabhupāda: As soon as he come into knowledge. Young man: But can one be egoistic and be spiritual at the same time, I mean, be proud of himself, not as a body, but proud of his state of the spirit? Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we are bodily busy. Because I am identifying with this body, therefore my misunderstanding is there. But if I understand I am not this body, then my activities will be different. So first of all, you have to understand that I am not this body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. [break] ...with this body, we remain an animal, because animal cannot understand that he is not body. Try to understand that you are not this body. And what is the difficulty? When a...? Young man: The difficulty is that I fear that if this body leaves me I'll no longer be. That's the difficulty, because it's difficult for me to imagine that when my brain doesn't work, I can't live, if I can live when my brain stops functioning. That's the difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Difficulty is not there, but we have to understand from teacher. Just like the many subject of knowledge we do not understand in the beginning, but by hearing from the teacher, gradually we understand. So that teacher must be perfect, in full knowledge, and then we can understand from him. So we accept Kṛṣṇa. Because He is God, He is perfect. So we receive knowledge from Him, and that is Bhagavad*-gītā. So knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or His pure servant, both of them are equal. They can give us that knowledge. Young man: I'd like to know the relation... Prabhupāda: Paramahaṁsa? Bring those ice. Put. That's all. Hm? Young man: I'd like to know the relation between Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa, how Viṣṇu became Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Being, and He has got many expansion. So Viṣṇu is also expansion. Young man: We were brought up as Mohammedans. Prabhupāda: So what is the conception of God in Islam? Young man: Even as a Mohammedan, I didn't have very good teaching. My teachers didn't know the Koran very well, and therefore they gave me no concept of God when I was a child. I don't know what the Mohammedan concept of God is. Prabhupāda: Any one of you cannot explain? You have got? *Young man: I think it's the all*-powerful one who's omnipotent, the same as in all religions. There is one God. Prabhupāda: So His form... What is the form? Young man: What is His form? He created the world... Prabhupāda: That is His action. What is His form? Young man: A heavenly being. Young man (2): There is no form given for God. It's spiritual. Prabhupāda: The description must be there. Girl: He's a human being. He's got a human form. Prabhupāda: That I am asking, what is the form? Young man: Well, the only thing... It just says that He created man after His own image. So... Prabhupāda: That is the Christian idea. Young man: Yeah. And the... Prabhupāda: The Mohammedan, Islam is also same idea? Young man: Well, since the Old Testament, part of the Old Testament, is very similar to the Koran, I presume the creation of Adam, that bit, is also taken from the Old Testament. But He is projected as a great judge really, a supreme judge. Prabhupāda: Yes, He must be the supreme judge because He is Supreme Being. So He is not only... Supreme judge means supreme knowledge. Young man: Yes. Somehow in modern religion they very much emphasize on the fact that He judges. And I could never accept that idea for example, that the Supreme Being judges, because judging is a low activity. It's a... Spiritual people don't judge. So how come... Prabhupāda: Spiritual...? Young man: Leader. Prabhupāda: They do not judge? Young man: That's what I thought. Prabhupāda: No, judgment is there everywhere. Unless there is judgment, how you can discriminate, "This is spiritual; *this is material"? Judgment must be there for intelligent person. Otherwise how you can distinguish? We are distinguishing every moment-"This is good. This is bad"-in the relative world. So there is judgment. So God*-the supreme judge. So as soon as there is question of judgment, then what is our position? There must be good and bad, so that if we have lived a very nice, good life, then by the judgment of God we get better position. And if we have not done so, then you get degraded position. Therefore, for human being it is very sanguine to understand how we are going to be judged by the Supreme. So if we are following the rules and regulation given by God, then the judgment will be better. And if we are not following the laws, the judgment will not be in favor. This is natural to conclude. Then we have to judge what is sin, what is piety, how to be pious, how one becomes sinful. So many things will come. Atreya Ṛṣi: Do the laws of nature also make distinction, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Laws of nature means laws of God. It is executed through the machine of nature. Atreya Ṛṣi: And that machine also makes distinction, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: No. Atreya Ṛṣi: No judgment? Prabhupāda: The machine... Just like I push certain button, it acts in a certain way. I push another button it acts in another way. Just like computer machine. It is a very complicated machine, but it does not act automatically. One man who knows, he puts the button and it acts. Young man: If the laws of nature are the laws of God, then how is it that sometimes they're even crueler than the actions..., they are more violent than the actions which ordinary men do, than that of a tyrant or a murderer? Prabhupāda: No, no. Rules, God rules, are perfect, and it is being perfectly done. Sometimes we misunderstand. Young man: Then how do we take the meaning of earthquakes and natural disasters which could destroy the lives of pure people as well as impure people? Prabhupāda: No, every life is pure. The body is pure and impure. So anyway, after destruction, the life is not destroyed. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The destruction of body does not mean that the soul is destroyed. No. He gets another body. The body is... one body is destroyed, and he transmigrates to another body. And so far your question about the earthquake, so suppose if there is plane crash, there are many good men, bad men, so everyone is crashed. But the good man gets a good body again; the bad man gets a bad body again. Young man: The good man gets a better body or a good body? *Prabhupāda: Good, better or worst, bad, according to his karma. Just like your shirt. You throw away on account of being old. Now you have to purchase another. But there are many varieties of shirt*-coat. As you pay for it, you get. If you can pay nice price, you get silk shirt-coat. But if you cannot, you get ordinary cotton or jute. So your body will be according to your karma, or work. Why the other boys went away? Two, three boys? Parivrājakācārya: They said they had to go. Prabhupāda: Oh. So these things has to be learned first, that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul. I am changing my body, and this is botheration." So if there is any way to stop this changing, that is required. That... That is possible to be done in this human form of life. Young man: Is there any chance to understand how the Absolute think? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the chance, human body. If you want to know, you can know. Here is the chance. Young man: Is there a way of knowing that the body you inhabited before was of a inferior quality than the one you're inhabiting now, or... Prabhupāda: Inferior quality, just like cats and dog. That is inferior quality. Young man: Yeah, is there a way of knowing whether you're on the way up or you're falling? Prabhupāda: Yes. You... Just like you infect some disease. Then it is sure that you are going to grow that disease. And if you don't infect, then you don't grow that disease. Do you know this, infection? Disease infection? Young man: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So, if you don't infect a certain disease, then you don't grow it. And if you infect... Therefore you must know or you must know the rules and regulation, how you can save yourself from infection. If you are ignorant and if you infect some disease, epidemic, then you have to suffer. If you remain disinfected, then you don't get inferior body, you get superior body, in other planets. Or you can go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore I said that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for purification so that you may not get infected by the material modes. Therefore we advise our student four regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. Plus chanting the holy name of God. Then you remain immune from the infection. And that you will feel practically also, if you adopt the means. Now it is up to us to decide whether I shall continue the life of infection or I shall remain immune from all infection. That is your decision. Better we should remain immune from all kinds of infection, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān [Bg. 14.26], find out this verse. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: This is the way. The purport? Paramahaṁsa: "This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question: What is the means of attaining to the transcendental position?" Prabhupāda: So everything is explained. One has to learn it very carefully. Young man: If one does not lose one's identity when one is returned to the Godhead, what is the nature of the relationship? Prabhupāda: Servant. God is supreme, we are all subordinate. God is maintaining us just like father maintains. So it is the duty of the son to be obedient to the father, to act according to his order. Then everything is perfect. At the present moment on account of this bodily concept of life every one of us thinking nationality and duty of nation, duty of the community, duty of the family, so many duties. But actually we, being spiritual, our only duty is to serve God. We are serving; everyone is serving. That is our constitutional position, to serve. But at the present moment we are serving māyā, illusion, and we have to be trained up to serve the Supreme Being. Then our life is perfect. [break] ...at the present moment, although there are many religious system, they have no clear conception of God, although religion means to approach God. There is no religion throughout the whole world which is not connected with the word God. So religion means to understand God. But if we have no clear conception of God, then the religion is defective. Do you admit it or not? Religion means to understand God or God's laws. That is religion. But if we do not understand what is God, then that religion is also defective. So far our position is, we are approaching directly God through His agent, and our conception of God is there in the temple worship or our working for God. But we have got no vague idea of God. We have got complete idea: Kṛṣṇa. You want to speak anything? Young man: What is the Kṛṣṇa conscious outlook on other world religions? Prabhupāda: They have got simply an idea that there is God, but what is that God, they have no clear conception. Just like I asked, "What is the conception of God in Islam?" You could not give us. You simply described some of His activities. Young man: That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Young man: All the religions that have been taught to me have not given me a clear view of God, a clear concept. They didn't seem to know it themself. Prabhupāda: No, concept is there as you told me: "The God has made human being after His own image." Then we can get the idea that God is a person like a human being, He has got two hands, two legs, one head, because after His image we have been... Now, if we study ourself and increase that quality... Just like I am. I can eat. I can eat a certain amount of foodstuff, but God can also eat, but He can eat the whole universe. So eating is there. But the difference of eating is there also. I can create one airplane, but God has created very, very big airplanes like these planets, and they are floating in the sky without any power crisis. That is God's creation. Here we are floating the airplane or running the car with the power, petrol, given by God. You cannot manufacture petrol. Just like in your country there is enough stock of petrol. But you have not created it. So who has created? Your creative power is to drill and get the stock. So much creative power you have got. But you cannot create petrol. Then the Americans would not have come here to beg petrol. That is the difference. You can create something by the ingredients given by God. You can create this table. Because wood is given by God, the instrument is given by God, and the intelligence given by God, the hand is given by God, so in this way you create the table. Then whose property it will be, your property or God's property? Whose property? If I give you wood, instrument, your salary, and you create something, the ultimately the thing created, to whom it should belong? To you or to me? Young man: To you if you're... Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore everything belongs to God. The petrol belongs to God; the land belongs to God; we also belong to God. But because we have forgotten God, there is crisis. Therefore, if you want peace, then you must accept here this principle that everything belongs to God. That is Vedic information. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. *Īśopaniṣad*. You have read our *Īśopaniṣad*? Young man: I have read some of it. Prabhupāda: Here is the *Īśopaniṣad*. Show him. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Read that verse. Srutakirti: Prabhupāda: Explanation. Śrutakīrti: . "Purport." [break] Prabhupāda: This is the summary of God consciousness. (Says something in Hindi) *Young man: I am from Ānanda*-mārga. My name is Ācārya Sveta Kirtu Brahmacārī. *Prabhupāda: Sveta*-kirtu. Sveta. *Young man: And the guru's name is Śrī Śrī Rādhā*-Govindaji. Prabhupāda: Hmm. You have got a branch here? Young man: I have been here for about three months. I am trying to lead the practices and the sādhana of the people here and trying to set up a unit here. Prabhupāda: So you follow Vedic principle? Young man: We follow Tantric principle. Prabhupāda: Tantric. Tantra, there are two kinds of tantras, sattvata, and there are sattvic, rajasic, anything. So your activity is on the material platform or spiritual? Young man: It's actually... Our motive is, our objective is ātmā mokṣa (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: Ātmā...? *Young man: (Sanskrit). Self*-realization and selfless service to humanity. So that's our principles. That's the objective of Ananda-mārga philosophy. So that's a subjective approach to objective adjustment, both, side by side. Prabhupāda: What is that ānanda? Young man: Ānanda means bliss, infinite happiness. Prabhupāda: Infinite. But what is the platform of that ānanda, material or spiritual? Young man: Of course, ānanda means very much spiritual aspect. Prabhupāda: But if somebody wants to derive ānanda by sense pleasure, is that spiritual? Young man: Our practices has... Prabhupāda: Tantra means they want to derive pleasure through the senses. So is that spiritual? *Young man: Our gurudeva says that not only do we do vidyā*-tantra but both the Tantric practices avidyā and vidyā has to be practiced. So one has to go beyond... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual. *Young man: Even after vidyā and avidyā, you have to be beyond that stage. So our gurudeva teaches both the practices. When the time is proper, he says he will also teach avidyā*-tantra, avidyā sara.(?) Prabhupāda: Abhidheya. Young man: Avidyā Indian man: Vaiddha and avaiddha. It may be avaiddha. Prabhupāda: "Late"? Indian man: The one which is recognized and the one which is not recognized by the society. That is the (Sanskrit). Prabhupāda: So society recognizes the sense gratification, whether it is bhidheya or abhidheya? Indian man: What is bhideya or abhidheya? *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā says, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya grāhyam [Bg. 6.21]. Bliss which is supreme, that is to be appreciated by atīndriya. Atīndriya means beyond the senses. So those who are indulging in senses, the Tantra indulges in senses. Is that spiritual? That is not spiritual. That is material. Indian man: You have to use the material, all the potential... Prabhupāda: No. Atīndriya. You haven't got to use this material [break] ...enjoy the spiritual senses, one has to not only stop, but undergo tapasya, tapo divyam. Just like a man is diseased, he wants to eat, but due to the disease he cannot eat. So first of all, you have to cure the disease, then your eating will be a pleasure. And if you want to eat in the diseased condition, then the taste will not be proper; you cannot eat. A man suffering from jaundice, if you give him sugar candy, he will taste it bitter. The same man, when he is cured, he will taste the sugar candy as very sweet. Tapo divyaṁ yena putrakā śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. You have to purify your existence by tapasya. And tapasya means stops material sense gratification. (Hindi) (Someone enters room) Ah, thank you. So you have translated in Parsi? Dr. Movebhed: Yes. *Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad*-gītā... Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. What is the position of Kṛṣṇa? That you have mentioned? Dr. Movebhed: I have to listen to you. *Prabhupāda: Why you shall listen to me? The Bhagavad*-gītā is there. Dr. Movebhed: But you are an insider. *Prabhupāda: Yes, actually without listening, so many big, big men, they have committed mistake about Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he says that "I do not believe that there was a person, Kṛṣṇa, ever living." Just see. What to speak of others. (Hindi) Without listening from the right source, even a personality like Gandhi will commit mistake, what to speak of others. Similarly, Dr. Rādhākrishnan has committed so many mistake. So big, big scholars, they're trying to study Bhagavad-gītā, but they cannot understand. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. You first prepare yourself to surrender, praṇipāta, praṇipāta-prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa nipāta. Without any reservation, surrender, praṇipātena, by the surrendering process, and paripraśnena, by enquiring from the authority. Because it is not very easy to understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Out of many, many million persons one try to understand, one trying to become perfect, siddhaye. Siddhi means perfection. So yatatām api siddhānām: [Bg. 7.3] "Those who have attained siddhi, perfection, out of many such siddhas," kaścid māṁ vetti tattvataḥ, "maybe one man can understand Me." The first of all to become siddha. Then, after becoming siddha, one may understand Kṛṣṇa or he may not. Actually it is very difficult to understand Kṛṣṇa. But you can understand Kṛṣṇa if you adopt this process: praṇipātena, paripraśnena, sevayā-three things. You have to go to a person where you can surrender, not to a bogus person or one who is not competent to accept your surrender. And then you make question that "Kṛṣṇa says like this. What is the meaning of this?" Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati... [Bg. 7.3]. And sevayā. Three things required: first of all surrender, and then question, and seva. You cannot question by challenging. You have to render service and surrender. Between the two, praṇipāta and sevayā, there is paripraśna. Then you will understand. Upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninaḥ tattva-darśinaḥ. Tattva-darśi, one who has seen the truth, he can enlighten you. This is the process. Otherwise, even Gandhi, Dr. Rādhākrishnan, Vivekānanda, all they have committed mistake. Aurobindo. Aurobindo has understood little to some extent, but not fully. But if we are fortunate enough, then we can understand Kṛṣṇa very easily. What is that? Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "My dear Dhanañjaya, Arjuna, there is no more superior truth than Me." So if we accept that, either you say blindly or conscientiously, then that is perfection. Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births of philosophical speculation, when one actually becomes wise, jñānī, jñānavān, full of knowledge, then the result is māṁ prapadyate: he surrenders unto Me." Why surrender? Now, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]*-he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such mahātmā is very rare." That I was... we were discussing that there are so many religious system in the world, but hardly they have got any clear conception of God. I have asked so many gentlemen belonging to different types of religion that "What is the clear conception of God?" So may I ask you also what is the clear conception of God? Dr. Movebhed: I prefer to listen to you. *Prabhupāda: But we are speaking the same thing, Bhagavad*-gītā. We are not manufacturing anything. Clear conception of God you can take from Arjuna. Arjuna associated with Kṛṣṇa personally. What he says about Kṛṣṇa and what he understands about God, that you read from the Tenth Chapter. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam [Bg. 10.12]. *Nitāi: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahmān, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original. You are the unborn and the all*-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupāda: Then? Purport? [break] Next verse? Nitāi: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor the demons, O Lord, know Thy personality." *Prabhupāda: Now here is the Arjuna's understanding, that "I accept You in total." Now some rascals are proclaiming that all the Bhagavad*-gītās, they are, most of them are interpretation. But Arjuna says that "I accept everything what You have said." So whom you will accept, Arjuna or some rascal who is speaking that "There are so many interpolation. They can be rejected"? Whom you will accept as authority? Arjuna says that "I accept whatever You have said in toto." If you accept Arjuna because he has heard from Kṛṣṇa, then you accept Kṛṣṇa or you understand Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Movebhed: I said I think the question you put, the clear concept of Kṛṣṇa, or God... The God for me is not a conceptual thing. It cannot be subject to concept, and to understand God, you have to identify yourself with the truth, and otherwise it's not the way to... Prabhupāda: No, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the teacher, authority, just like Arjuna accepted. Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "Now I accept You as my teacher." Śiṣya. Śiṣya means disciple. Śiṣyas te aham: "I am Your now disciple. Don't accept me as Your friend." Friend to friend talk, it is not very serious. So when one is accepted as the master, then you have to accept his statement. There is no question of argument. That is the relationship between guru and disciple. Therefore the process is: before accepting a person as guru, one must study his position. And guru also, before accepting a disciple, must study his position. In this way the relationship between guru and disciple is established. Now, Arjuna is a friend of Kṛṣṇa, so he has studied Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he submits, Arjuna, "Kṛṣṇa, although we are friends, now I accept You as my spiritual master." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "I am now surrendered." "Surrendered" means "As I accept you as my teacher, I'll not argue." So first of all this is required, that before accepting somebody as teacher one must be convinced that "The person whom I am going to accept, my teacher, is perfect." Then the knowledge will be nice. If we approach a perfect person and submissively hear from him, then the knowledge is perfect. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme authority, as Arjuna quoted. What is that? Nitāi: Āhus tvāṁ ṛṣayaḥ sarve. Prabhupāda: Āhus tvāṁ ṛṣayaḥ sarve: "All the ṛṣis, great saintly persons, they have accepted You." And some of them are named: Asita, Devala, Vyāsa. They are very great authority, ṛṣis: Vyāsadeva, who has compiled the whole Vedic literature; Nārada, the spiritual master of Vyāsadeva; similarly, Asita, Devala, very, very big, big stalwart, they have accepted. So apart from all these ṛṣis, recently, within, say, thousand years, great ācāryas just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, they have all accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. And India's Vedic culture is practically dependent on all these ācāryas. So we are follower of these ācārya, so we accept, following the footsteps of the ācārya. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. One who has ācārya, guidance... Just like if anyone is going to be doctor of philosophy, he is guided by three ācāryas. That is the system in India. I think the same here, is it not? Anyone who is going to present some thesis, he is guided by three experienced professors, is it not? Dr. Movebhed: Yes, more or less. *Prabhupāda: That is ācārya. So ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Without following the ācārya, if we simply theorize, that is not good. Just like the same example: if you want to put some thesis, the university regulation is that he must be guided by three experienced professor. You cannot simply put forward your thesis without being guided by the experienced professors. That thesis will not be accepted. Similarly, here Arjuna directly hears from Kṛṣṇa. So he says that "You are Parabrahma. Now I understand." Now people may say that "You are accepting Him Parabrahma. Where is your authority? You are friend. You can say Parabrahma or anything*-out of love. That is not final." Therefore he quotes that... What is that? Āhus tvāṁ ṛṣayaḥ sarve: "All the big, big ṛṣis, they have accepted You." Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me: "And You, the Supreme Person, You are also speaking to me. And so far I am concerned, I have realized now that You are the Supreme Lord, Parabrahma." So if we follow Arjuna, then there is no difficulty. Accept Kṛṣṇa as Parabrahma. So Arjuna has heard it from Kṛṣṇa directly. This is the process. Now Kṛṣṇa says that "I accept your statement in toto." What is that language? Nitāi: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye [Bg. 10.14]. *Prabhupāda: Sarvam etaṁ ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava: "My dear Keśava..." Keśava, the another name of Kṛṣṇa... "Whatever You have said I accept them cent percent." Sarvam etaṁ ṛtam. Ṛtam means fact, truth. This is understanding. So if we accept in that way, then our knowledge is perfect. And if we accept in a different way... Just like Gandhi says that "I do not believe that Kṛṣṇa ever lived." Just see. He does not believe in the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they have written big, big comment on Bhagavad-gītā, even Śaṅkarācārya. He does not believe anyone. He believes himself. And that kind of belief is not help. And our process is: because Kṛṣṇa has been accepted by all the ācāryas, all the great sages, Arjuna has accepted*-we accept, that's all. We have no difficulty. If I am child, I ask my father, "What is this, my father?" The father says, "My dear child, it is called coconut." Then, if I distribute this knowledge, "This is coconut," then my knowledge is perfect. I may not be perfect, but because I have heard it from my father, who is perfect about the knowledge of this fruit, so I have taken that word from my father, and I am preaching, "This is coconut," and this is perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is like that. We are simply repeating the perfect statement of our predecessor. That's all. So there is no difficulty. We haven't got to write thesis on Kṛṣṇa. The perfect knowledge is already there. And supported by the ācāryas. And we are simply submitting that "This is Kṛṣṇa. This is God." That's all. All over the world we are placing this statement that "Here is Bhagavad-gītā, and Kṛṣṇa spoke. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is like this. He is the original source of everything." Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." And Kṛṣṇa also says, "After many, many births one come to this understanding that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] 'Vasudeva is everything.' " Kṛṣṇa says, "I am everything." And when one understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything, sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ, that mahātmā is very rare. So my point is that simply replacing... not replacing, submitting the same statement as the great saintly person, ācāryas have accepted, we are getting the result very nice, instead of theorizing in my own way, although it is not very difficult. Kṛṣṇa says that "You always think of Me," man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So we are teaching people the same way, that "You always think of Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is thinking of Kṛṣṇa. So that is being effective. We are getting good result all over the world. Anyone who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa, he is becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, fully convinced, dedicating his life for Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can change him. Now any of my students, you ask them to change his position from Kṛṣṇa consciousness to something else. I don't think they will agree. They are not fools; *they are all qualified, educated. They are firmly convinced about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And all of them will explain how they are convinced. If you ask them, any one of them will explain. They have not blindly accepted. So this is the process, that if you accept the pure path as accepted by the authorities, then it will be effective. Svayam eva... That is the Vedic principle. Svayam eva sphuraṭy adhaḥ. Spiritual realization is revealed. That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti te. So if we adopt the right principle, then other things will automatically come and help us. And the process is very simple if we accept it. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Find this verse. Nitāi: *Prabhupāda: A simple formula. Anyone can think of Kṛṣṇa always. Anyone can offer obeisances. Bhava mad*-bhaktaḥ. Anyone can serve Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. So four principle: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Even a child can do that. And by doing these four things he becomes perfect. And the other verse, Nitāi: Prabhupāda: So He is the father of all species of life, origin. Actually every one of us, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is not for a particular person. For everyone. Yes? *Ānanda*-mārga woman: When you asked what is the true form of God, I've seen the true form of God in myself. It's the purest life, it's the life I cannot reach through my mind. And nobody has experienced in material world. I have listened to it. It is a beautiful sound, the celestial music. And you cannot reach it through material world. I've tasted it as the purest water, and it's always inside me. And you can get it in the spring water even. And it is something I cannot reach through my mind because it is beyond my mind. I can reach by surrendering myself, by being a devotee. And I have experienced the true form of God. Prabhupāda: No, what is that form? *Ānanda*-mārga woman: It's the purest light. It's the magnificent light. I have listened to it. It's the music. And I have tasted it. Prabhupāda: No, if you have realized God, you must know what is His form. You must explain. *Ānanda*-mārga woman: The energy of light does take the form of everything which exists. It is the creator of worlds. Prabhupāda: But He has a form. *Ānanda*-mārga woman: He has all the forms. And the purest form, the most beautiful form, has shown itself to me inside of me. It's the light and it's the music and it's the water. I cannot name it Kṛṣṇa because I do not believe in names. Prabhupāda: Do you know what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa? *Ānanda*-mārga woman: I believe Kṛṣṇa was one form of God. You said something about extension of Kṛṣṇa. It's the same. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means "the all*-attractive." As you say that God is so beautiful, so that is, in other words, all-attractive. So if you have realized God, then you have become perfect. *Ānanda*-mārga woman: No. Prabhupāda: No? *Ānanda*-mārga woman: Whenever I realize God I receive it through my mind and not perfect. But if I meditate and surrender, then there is no distance between me and God. I reach God and I become one with God. And that's the only time I can call everything true meditation. And that's the only time I experience this life in me. And I cannot talk about it as "me and God" because it was the same as God, because I became one with God. And there was no distance really. Prabhupāda: Then you are God? *Ānanda*-mārga woman: I am not God. I am just... I truly experience this God through me all the time. Prabhupāda: You say that you and God, one, and again you say that you are not... *Ānanda*-mārga woman: If I meditate, then I become surrendered to God. And I'm trying to do that by trying to take this distance away. Prabhupāda: That means when you surrender to God, then you become God, that you are surrendered God, and He is the person to be surrendered. There are two Gods, why not? You say, "I surrender to God." *Ānanda*-mārga woman: I said when I surrender to God... Prabhupāda: Yes, that means God is different from you; otherwise how you can surrender to Him? *Ānanda*-mārga woman: Right. When I am out, off in the world, when my mind is working, then I'm separate from God. I have made myself separate from God by the senses, by my mind, thinking. But then, when I... Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept that you are one and different from God simultaneously. That is the conclusion, that you say sometimes that you are one, and at the same time you say different, therefore the philosophy comes to this point, that you are simultaneously one and different from God. *Ānanda*-mārga woman: The whole thing is that the God is inside of me... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ānanda*-mārga woman: ...and for me to realize it, to become one with it, to realize it, not to be away from it, I have it... Prabhupāda: Then who will realize? You are different to realize. You say the God is within you. Therefore God is different from you, but He is within you. You require to realize. Therefore you are different from God. Otherwise there is no question of realization. *Ānanda*-mārga woman: You see. What I have experienced, I believe it's my home. I believe it's where I have come from, because it is beyond whatever I have experienced in this worldly life. And so I see that I have a different shape. I have a body and I have a mind which distract me from my true nature, which is God, which is godly and which is beautiful, which is light. But when I surrender myself I become one with it again, I go back home. It is like taking a trip, you know. And you always want to go back home, but you take a trip because there is this wanting to go back home, and it's very beautiful. And this body is like a trip, you know. Taking a body of human being is like a trip. You're going to go back home, and you realize it, and you try to go back home. *Prabhupāda: That I can understand, that sometimes you realize that you are one, and sometimes you realize that you are different. That means simultaneously you are one and different from God. This is the conclusion. Acintya*-bhedābheda. This is the philosophy, acintya, inconceivable, one and different, one because we are one in quality, and different in quantity. That is our position. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānṁ. The Vedic information is like that, that He is the Supreme Being amongst all beings. He is also being, we are also being, but He is the Supreme Being. So as being, we are one, but as Supreme and subordinate, we are different. This is the conclusion. As being, living being, we are one. That is not very difficult. Just like in your country the king, the Shah, he is also a being and you are also a being. But he is the supreme being in this country. Although as human being you are equal, but so far his power, his position is concerned, he is different. Similarly, as being, we are one with God, but so far the power and position is concerned, He is too big, the great. We are subordinate. This is our position. That is the right conclusion. Dr. Movebhed: Is that really the right conclusion? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the right conclusion, that God is also Supreme Being and we are also being, so as being, we are one, but as Supreme, He is different. That is the right conclusion. You are not Supreme Being. You are being controlled by the Supreme Being. You cannot say that you are independent. Therefore you are not Supreme. You are dependent on Him. Eko hi yasya vidadhāti kāmān, bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He maintains. Just like this coconut. God has given us this coconut fruit to enjoy or to live upon it. But I cannot create this coconut. It is not possible. Therefore, for my maintenance He has sent this coconut. So He is maintainer; I am maintained, although He is being; I am also being. He is maintainer being; *I am maintained being. This is the right conclusion. No scientist... He can talk so many things about this coconut, but unfortunately he cannot manufacture this coconut. That is not possible. He can manufacture something subordinate*-chairs, table-but not this coconut. Not possible. Guest: They... some scientists they manufactures this coconut. Prabhupāda: Where is that foolish scientist? Guest: No, let us see. Someday some scientist manufactures this. Prabhupāda: "Someday"? Where? Where? Where? Guest: No, I am assuming. Prabhupāda: Assuming. Guest: One day he manufactures that. Then what? All this theory is gone? Prabhupāda: No, we say he cannot. Guest: No, that is now, today. But you also said we can't... Prabhupāda: That you can say, today or tomorrow, but we know in the history nobody has manufactured in the past, and nobody is manufacturing in the present. How can I believe in the future? Guest: I think many things that were not done in the past are being done today. Prabhupāda: No. In the past there was winter season. In the present there is winter season. Therefore I can say next January will be winter season. That is nice. But if it is not happened in the past or present, how you can say? That proposition is not accepted. In the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease, in the present there is birth, death, old age, and disease, and in the future there will be birth, death, and old age and disease. This conclusion is all right. In the past there was birth, death, old age, and disease. At the present there is birth, death, and old age, disease. How you can say in the future there will be no birth, no death, no old age...? That proposal is not very sound. You can say whimsically; that is another thing. But factually it is not possible. *Indian man: Guruji, according to the bhakti*-yoga, a person starting at least in the elementary way of bhakti-yoga... Prabhupāda: Huh? Indian man: In the elementary way, if he starts... Prabhupāda: What is that elementary way? *Indian man: Half*-heartedly. Prabhupāda: No, no what is that process elementary? Indian man: In the dvaita way. In the dvaita way, not in the advaita way, assuming that He is different and I am different. That is the elementary way of starting worship. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is always. Why elementary? Indian man: He is considering in that way. *Indian man: No, no. Assuming there had been, supposing bhakti*-yoga... *Prabhupāda: Bhakti*-yoga... First of all try to understand what is bhakti-yoga. Indian man: In the beginning it's relatively easy to be... *Prabhupāda: No, no. Explain what is bhakti*-yoga. Indian man: No, what we have understood from the chapters only... Prabhupāda: So what is that? What you have understood? Indian man: Just surrender yourself first... Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian man: And then depend upon one God or one Deity in whom you have a sort of immense belief or confidence. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot create God. God is one, already there. Indian man: No, no, but then I can create in the form of Rāma as one. Prabhupāda: That is not creation. *Indian man: No, not creation, but I can have my own concentration in the Rāma*-mūrti. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man: Instead of Kṛṣṇa mūrti, I can... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man: That way. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest: Ah, that way. So that way is two devatās, you see. Prabhupāda: Hm, yes. Indian man: So supposing I start simply chanting Rāmeśvara... Prabhupāda: Rāma. Indian man: Rāma or Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are chanting. Indian man: Any God's name, any divine name... Prabhupāda: That's nice. Indian man: You see? And then why is it we are again getting breaks now and then and we trace back our steps? Prabhupāda: No, you can... If you are following rigidly, there will be no break. Indian man: No, but rigidity is again a relative term. Rigidity again... What is rigid? Prabhupāda: No, no, you said that you begin chanting Rāma. Indian man: Yes. Prabhupāda: So follow it. Indian man: Yes, but then there are breaks. Prabhupāda: Why break? If you are serious... Indian man: I don't get... Prabhupāda: No, no, if you are serious, there will be no break. Indian man: Ah. Then serious is also... Prabhupāda: Then you are not serious. Indian man: No, no, no, it is not the question of... No. Excuse me, Guruji, that I am not able to explain to you properly. The point is... Prabhupāda: Then hear me, that if you chant Rāma, then gradually you will get attachment for Rāma. Then how you can give it up? Indian man: Ah, that is what I am lacking. Prabhupāda: That means you haven't got the attachment. Your procedure has been failure. Indian man: Ah, but sir, what is lacking? *Prabhupāda: Lacking, there are so many things. But one who is actually chanting Rāma, the result will be that he will get attachment. That is the process. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ atha bhajana-kriyā, tato anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭha tato ruciḥ tathā āsaktiḥ tato bhāvaḥ. This will increase. Just like if you have gone to school*-you have learned, began to learning-then your learning will increase. And one day you will come to the stage of passing M.A. examination. And if it fails, that mean you did not go to school very seriously. Otherwise the general process is you make progress and come to the standard of passing M.A. examination. Then if you have gone to school and you have not followed the rules and regulations, you have not attended the teacher, the lessons, then you failure. That I am saying, that that is not very seriously taken that "I am going to school. I must learn it." If one is serious, then... That is recommended, Indian man: No, but then our attention is towards that thing. Prabhupāda: No, there no attention. You have failed. That is the proof that you had no attention. Indian man: Yes, but then God should help us to keep us... *Prabhupāda: God is always helping, but if you do not accept it... God says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up all other engagement and take My shelter," but you are not doing that. That is your fault. So it cannot be failure unless you are negligent. You have no utsāhaḥ. This is the process. Utsāhaḥ dhairyaḥ niścayaḥ tat-tat-karma-pravartanaḥ, sato vṛtteḥ. How these boys are advancing? They have got enthusiasm: "Yes, we must make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." They have given up everything. They are young men. They have got... Every young man has to satisfy senses in so many ways. But no. They are so enthusiastic, but... For understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness they have given up everything. They are Europeans, Americans. They have got so many allurement. But I have told them that "You must give up illicit sex," they have given up; *"You must give up meat*-eating," they have given up; "You must give up intoxication up to drinking tea and cigarette," and they have given up, these young men. So they are utsāhaḥ. There is enthusiasm: "Yes, we must do it." That is wanted, not theoretically on the armchair of devotional service. That will not be successful. Armchair theory will not help you. You must be practical and there must be enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. You are sitting in the same position and you are thinking that you are making progress. That will fail. You have to come out with enthusiasm. Then it will be successful. That is required. Ciraṁ vicinvan. There is a verse, Indian man: No, enthusiasm is there, but there are breaks. Prabhupāda: Breaks means he is not serious. Indian man: No, but there may be so many other things over which he has no control. *Prabhupāda: Other things, that is anartha. If you are really enthusiastic, these anarthas will be vanquished automatically. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. They are all Europeans, Americans, they are from the childhood accustomed to meat*-eating. How they have given up? Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate: they have got better things to eat, therefore they have given up meat-eating. So the rules and regulation are there; if we follow them strictly, then everything one after another will come, the stages. Indian man: Then it is not necessary that one should join the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement for that type of helping. *Prabhupāda: You cannot understand. I have said sādhu*-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Indian man: That's all. Prabhupāda: That is... Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be associated; otherwise how you can understand Kṛṣṇa? Indian man: But this is not the only association where one can go in for... Prabhupāda: This is the only association for understanding Kṛṣṇa throughout the whole world. Indian man: But can you prove that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out another association like this. Indian man: No, but then... Prabhupāda: No, you find out another association like this. Indian man: No, association may not be as pompous as this association is. Prabhupāda: Therefore there is no second. Indian man: No, no, no. Prabhupāda: You said that association may be as pompous. That means there is no another association. Indian man: No, pompous is different from the real purpose. Prabhupāda: Then I do not know what is your real purpose. You say, "There may not be. There may be." Again you say... Indian man: No, Guruji, you yourself have quoted the ācāryas. Prabhupāda: So one who is following the ācāryas... Indian man: Were they not Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Yes, they say. Therefore I am giving their proof. Indian man: So that means those maṭhas also are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Indian man: We can join them also. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Indian man: Oh, I thought Kṛṣṇa conscious only for this... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Any association which is Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can join. Indian man: Thank you for the enlightenment. But I have got one other doubt. You had told that some great scholars like Mahatma Gandhi had confused and they did not believe in the Kṛṣṇa living, He ever lived, and Dr. Radhakrishnan and another also were not clear in enunciating the theory of Kṛṣṇa. I would like to know whether Kṛṣṇa living or not living, is it very important? And will the movement depends upon one Kṛṣṇa living, positive... *Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Kṛṣṇa is never not living*-He is living. Otherwise how He can be Kṛṣṇa? But if you do not know whether He is living or not living, that is your lack of knowledge. Indian man: Do you believe Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: No, first of all settle up this one question, that Kṛṣṇa is always living, and if you do not know whether Kṛṣṇa is living or not living, then your knowledge is imperfect. Therefore your knowledge will not be accepted, because you are imperfect. That is the point. *Indian man: When we speak of Bhagavad*-gītā, do we mean... Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa is living or not. That doesn't matter." No, it matters. Indian man: It matters. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because Kṛṣṇa is living but you do not know; therefore your knowledge is imperfect. *Indian man: OK. Taking for granted that is the basis, does this movement believe in Kṛṣṇa Bhāgavata or Kṛṣṇa who preached Bhagavad*-gītā, only this much or that much. Kṛṣṇa Bhāgavata... *Prabhupāda: You cannot say that Kṛṣṇa Bhāgavata, Kṛṣṇa as described in the Bhāgavata, should be rejected, and Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad*-gītā should be accepted. You cannot say that. Indian man: No, just I wanted to separate Them together because... Prabhupāda: Why? *Indian man: Some people take Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad*-gītā. So far as Bhagavad-gītā was preached by a philosopher like Kṛṣṇa, all other things are not so pertinent. But when people associate Kṛṣṇa with Bhāgavata, Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā being a apart from Bhārata, if they all take together there's a lot of confusion. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata and Kṛṣṇa, Mahābhārata*-the same. *Indian man: Thank you. I know a little about that, but still, if you we take Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata, and if you want to say, explain all the things that had happened pertaining to Kṛṣṇa, it would be very difficult to explain the same thing with Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad*-gītā. That Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad-gītā will be separate to everybody.(?) *Prabhupāda: No, therefore... No, therefore... Therefore we say that first of all you understand Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad*-gītā. That is the ABCD of Kṛṣṇa. Then you go to Bhāgavatam. *Dr. Movebhed: I feel... If I am not wrong, I feel that what others have done, that Mahatma Gandhi, Dr. Radhakrishnan, etc., etc., they have taught that Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad*-gītā is very much important for us. Whether He was living or whether He did not live, or anything which was in the name of Kṛṣṇa, that is quite (sic:) impertinent. We want to have the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa as enunciated in Bhagavad-gītā, is just enough to tell others who are in need of... Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if you do not believe in that person, how do you understand his philosophy? Dr. Movebhed: That's where... I think I may be wrong. Please correct me if I go wrong. That's where people have taken little, two to three steps, as my friend has told, first advaita. She wanted to have two... *Prabhupāda: No, no, why advaita, dvaita? First of all you take the preliminary things, that you are accepting the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad*-gītā, but you have no knowledge of the person who has spoken Bhagavad-gītā. Then where is your understanding? You do not understand the person who has spoken the Bhagavad-gītā. Then what is the meaning of your understanding Bhagavad-gītā? Indian man: No, we have to try... Prabhupāda: No, no. Try, try, another thing. Indian man: We have to understand it. Prabhupāda: No, you have to understand it... First of all you have to understand Kṛṣṇa, the person who is speaking. *Indian man: Oh, you mean Kṛṣṇa the person you must understand, then Kṛṣṇa of Bhagavad*-gītā you must understand. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the way. You read any book; you learn first of all about the author, his life, his everything. Indian man: Sometimes we need not... Prabhupāda: No, it is needed. It is needed. No, that is the way. Indian man: We need not approach the guru. What he speaks that is enough sometimes. Prabhupāda: No, that is the way. You read any book. You try to understand, to know something about the author. That is natural. Indian man: When He rips up (unclear) pārtha, that's enough, just we will start out. Then when He say, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, again we will go to Him. But we need not go through... Prabhupāda: No, no. That is needed. That is needed. That is needed. If you do not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, when Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, how you will accept it? Indian man: I will accept, but not as Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata. I may not know anything about Him as of... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is not very good theory. You do not know anything about Him, and you surrender to Him. What is this? Indian man: We may have our own idea. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. If we surrender, we must know Him first of all, what He is. Then we surrender. We are not blind. Suppose you tell me that "You surrender unto me." Shall I do that? Why shall I do it? Indian man: But... Prabhupāda: No "but." First of all answer this. If I do not know anything about you and you demand from me, "You surrender," shall I do it? Indian man: I will be knowing what He has preached, if I... That preaching itself is enough and we need not look anything about Him. We can surrender. Prabhupāda: That He preaches... Indian man: That preaching is enough. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Indian man: We need not know what He is. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You accept His preaching? Indian man: If it is accepted, then we can surrender. I was questioning only this point, whether the Kṛṣṇa of Bhāgavata is necessary to accept... *Prabhupāda: No, no, set aside Bhāgavatam. I have told you that first of all you try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the Bhagavad*-gītā. Indian man: If that is enough, it's enough. *Prabhupāda: Enough. But if you say that you don't believe in the Kṛṣṇa, whether He was living or not, then you have not understood Bhagavad*-gītā. *Indian man: I know the living Kṛṣṇa will come in Bhagavad*-gītā, I hope. Prabhupāda: No. He says... He says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no superior authority than Me." Then if you do not understand what is that Kṛṣṇa, then how you accept Him as superior authority? Guest: I think we have to define the concept of God first, and then only... *Prabhupāda: No, no, concept of God is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Guest: What is that concept first, please? *Prabhupāda: That He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. God means the Supreme. So He says, "There is no more superior supreme than Me." Then He is God. And if you accept the teachings of Bhagavad*-gītā, then you have to accept He is God. Otherwise what you have understood, Bhagavad-gītā? You have manufactured your own way. He says... If you study Bhagavad-gītā, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So God means the Supreme. So He says, "I am the Supreme. There is no more superior supreme." Then you have to accept Him God. Indian man: OK. Prabhupāda: Then? Indian man: We have accepted, but Kṛṣṇa need not be one form as somebody else has written... Prabhupāda: That... Just like... That form is God also. Indian man: That is also an imagination of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, no. That form is also God. Accepting your theory that there are many forms of God, so that form is also God. Indian man: That form, OK, I agree... Prabhupāda: So we accept Him, God, either way. Indian man: But need not be a definite form. He need not have a definite form. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. There may be different form. But that form is God. Then you have to accept Him God. Indian man: Yes, OK. And when I say one form, it may be formless also, and I may... Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, that form is God. You have to accept. Indian man: OK, I will accept. Prabhupāda: Then if you accept God, the whole thing is finished. Indian man: We accept God, but just I was telling... Indian man: No, same thing as that lady was telling, she sees that God is a light. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be... That we accept. God is light, God... There are many forms, but that form is God. Indian man: Therefore, definition is "a supreme." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that form is supreme. That you have to accept. That you accept. Then there is no quarrel with you. Kṛṣṇa may have many forms, God may have many forms, but that form is God. That you have to accept. That is understanding of Bhagavad*-gītā. Dr. Movebhed: Well, I think, sir, when they say that comment, Rādhākrishnan, when they say that, it's not important to know whether... *Prabhupāda: But Rādhākrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." When Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Then if he accepts Kṛṣṇa as God, why does he say, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa"? Indian man: This is God. Some may accept Him as Kṛṣṇa, some may accept Him as some other thing. Prabhupāda: That is accepted. But that form is God. Indian man: God, he accepts it as God. Prabhupāda: That he does not accept. Indian man: God, he will say. Prabhupāda: No, no. He doesn't accept that. That is the difficulty. Nitāi: He says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Prabhupāda: And if he has accepted Kṛṣṇa as God, why does he say "not to Kṛṣṇa"? Guest: No, he may not call that Kṛṣṇa. He will call it "to the Supreme," what you said now. *Prabhupāda: Why not Supreme? Then he has not accepted Bhagavad*-gītā. Indian man: Guruji, Guruji, even ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, when he wrote commentaries on Prasthana(?) prayer... Prabhupāda: No. Śaṅk... Indian man: ...he would think towards his own philosophy. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no, no. He... *Indian man: Śaṅkarācārya, when he writes on this Bhagavad*-gītā, he gives... *Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya says sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. You refer to the commentary of Bhagavad*-gītā of Śaṅkarācārya. So in the beginning he says, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. Nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktāt avyaktād anya-sambhavaḥ. So he has explained. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. And what to speak of other ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya... They accept, all, Kṛṣṇa. Madhvācārya... They worship Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa may have many forms, that is accepted. But that form, Kṛṣṇa, He is God. That you have to accept. You cannot deny that. Guest: He was asking something. Your question was? Guest (2): I thought when some people say that it wasn't very important to know whether Kṛṣṇa was living or not, they talk to Kṛṣṇa as a historical fact, as an individual, as a person who lived within the framework of time and space. Kṛṣṇa as an individual, as a historical person, might not even important, as they said Aśoka(?) or Christ or... Prabhupāda: (Aside to devotee:) You come here. I do not follow the accent, you hear and tell. Guest: What would be important was Kṛṣṇa teachings. One must, could not be confined to any one period of time. He is incarnation of God and somebody who was talking for the truth and in the name of the truth, and... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...fact is that if you have got different views about Kṛṣṇa, then you cannot prove that from the Bhagavad*-gītā. That you cannot prove. If you take Bhagavad-gītā, then you must present it as it is. Don't distort it. You may have got some idea, but you explain that idea in your different book. But don't place it as the explanation of Bhagavad-gītā. That is not very good. If you have got different theory, you can write in a different book. But we cannot permit or do not like that as the commentary of Bhagavad-gītā you will place something different. That is not very honest. You put your own theory. Why should you try to put your theory through Bhagavad-gītā? That we protest. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that "There is no superior authority than Me." Therefore He is the God. Mām eva ya prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "I am the origin of everything." And if you have got different idea, that somebody else is the origin, that you can explain differently. But you cannot keep it as explanation of Bhagavad-gītā. Then it is distortion, because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, Guest: There is some our ācāryas. How about Christ or Muhammad and Zarathustra, all these people? *Prabhupāda: They accept God, that's all. But God is here explained. They cannot give an explicit idea of God. But here is God speaking personally. They have got "There is God," "God is great." That's nice. But who is that God, how He is great, that they have to learn further. Simply a vague idea, that "God is great..." One should know how He is great and who is that great. That is perfection. So that is explained here. They accept God. That is... They are also our brother because they accept God. They are not atheist. Atheists, they don't accept God. "There is no God"*-that is atheist. But here they are theist. They accept God. They want to please God. They go to the church, go to the mosque, offer prayer. Prayer is also bhakti, devotional service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ... [SB 7.5.23]. Śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam..., arcanaṁ vandanam. Vandanam. The Christian way or the Muslim way, to offer... The Muslim offer obeisances and offer prayer. So that is also bhakti. The Christian also do that, so that is also bhakti. And they accept God; we accept God. So there is no difference. But the only point is who is that God. Guest: They accept as supreme power. Prabhupāda: No, supreme power must be that... Behind the power there must be powerful. Guest: They say powerful but what about... *Prabhupāda: Yes, then we have to know this powerful, not only the power. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. In another place, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā [Bs. 5.44]. Durgā is power. Power is in... What kind of power? Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka. She can create, she can maintain and she can destroy, so powerful. But this power, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka chāyeva [Bs. 5.44], is working just like shadow. Just like here is shadow. I am moving this hand; *the shadow is moving. Shadow is not independently moving. Therefore this gigantic power, material energy, is working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa: [Bg. 9.10] "under My superintendence." So we are allured with the power, but who is manipulating this power we do not know. That is God. Guest: Well, sir, this is a point which I really fail to understand because... Prabhupāda: But that is everyone's dilemma, that "What is this power?" The scientists, the (sic:) physists, they are seeing the power. The power is working and energy is working. But how it is working, that is further enquiry. *Guest: I have three points. First of all I have nothing... I have seen nothing in Bhagavad*-gītā, although it is a work of the most beautiful of all these books which are attributed to God and are supposed to be speaked in the name of God. It is one of the beautiful book among these (Parsi?). But sincerely there is nothing in Bhagavad-gītā about God which you cannot find similar passage, a passage similar to it in Koran or in other teachings. That's my first point. The second point is that if we believe to God and we believe that the God has spoken only through Bhagavad-gītā to, thus, a people who live in a given country, then we are going to have a very narrow-minded God who doesn't love all human beings... Prabhupāda: No. No there. Here, here I impress... Guest: He has bestowed all His love to a given people. And my third point is that if we believe God as a life force or who must be discovered by a human being and the human being who has to proceed toward this truth, then also we have no reason to confine this into one people. Indian man: Swamiji, I may take your leave. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why you are going soon? Indian man: I have to go still far off. Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. Jaya. Jaya. Guest: So I think what we have in Islam is... They say that the road, the way towards God, the ways are many, as many as the human beings, that is said. So in the number of human beings you have ways towards God. So everybody, each person, has his own way towards God. And it's really hard for me, difficult for me to believe that there's only one way and there is only one book and one school, one way of teaching. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: And when Muhammad said that God is great, he simply said God is great, and he adds nothing to it for somebody who is well acquainted with Islam culture and he who knows well about Koran's teachings, it cannot be understood and accepted. It is the same with somebody who is well acquainted with Christianity and the truth spoken through Christianity. It is the same with the Buddhism or other ways which are designed, which are... Prabhupāda: So your point is that God is understood in different ways. That is not point? Atreya Ṛṣi: That's one of his points. Prabhupāda: And what is the other point? *Atreya Ṛṣi: That all the scriptures speak of the same truth. Scriptures coming from God speak of the same truth that is in Bhagavad*-gītā. And all the scriptures give a real path to God, and that there..., as many as individuals as there are, there are ways of getting to God, and that God could not be fair if He just gave one book at one time to one group of people. Being just, He has given the scripture... He should have... Prabhupāda: No, just like dictionary. The small pocket dictionary is also dictionary, and the international dictionary, (sic?) Webs, that is also dictionary. So both of them are dictionary, but they are not equal. One dictionary is meant for children and one dictionary is meant for the higher scholars. So although are dictionaries, they are two kinds of dictionaries. Guest: Do you know, sir, that it is exactly the same way of thinking which we have in our people who believe to Muhammad? They think that the teaching of Muhammad is the most superior one. And others... Of course, Muslims do believe to others' religions, to Moses, to Christ, and so on. They have the same way of thinking. They think that they are elementary stages... Prabhupāda: The point is... Yes. Guest: ...and Muhammad's teaching is supposed to be the superior one. So everybody thinks that his way or his way of thinking, his theory, his religion is the most superior one. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. If you accept progress... Just like you are seeing the sun, I am also seeing the sun, the boy is also seeing the sun, but the understanding of the sun may be different. Everyone is seeing the sun. The objective is the same. But a child's understanding of sun and an elderly man's understanding of sun, a scientist's understanding of sun, or one man who has actually gone to the sun planet, there are different categories. Do you accept or not? The sun is there. God is accepted in every scripture. That is a fact. But in the same way, how far He is understood, that is different. That is different. The same example, that everyone is seeing sun: "Here is sun," there is no doubt. But a child's understanding of sun, his father's understanding of sun, or a scientist's understanding of sun, or a person who has gone to the sun planet, his understanding of sun is different. The objective is the same. And everyone is right. Either you understand fully sun or not, as soon as you come before the sun you get the light. The child is getting the light, the scientist is getting the light, and the ordinary person getting the light. Everyone is getting light, heat and light. But their understanding different, of degrees. [break] ...sun*-god or sun, no, we don't say that. Guest: From what you have said in the answer to this gentleman, I thought you meant, sir, when the only perfect... Prabhupāda: No. Guest: ...teaching about God is provided through the sun. Prabhupāda: No, just like if you want to understand sun, say... what is called? Geography? Then you have to learn from the person who knows geography. You cannot learn from a person who has superficially studied. Then you have to go to the person who knows scientifically, astronomically, that sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet. You have to go to the astronomer. How far the sun is situated from us? So you have to go to the particular person who knows it. You cannot say that his knowledge and the child's knowledge, who is seeing the sun as a disc is the same. That you cannot say. If you want to know further enlightenment of the sun then you have to go to the person who is studying sun scientifically. So one who has studied the sun scientifically, his knowledge and a casual person seeing the sun, his knowledge is not the same. That you cannot say. Although everyone is seeing the sun, that's all right, but the knowledge of the sun, there are different. Devotee: That seems to answer all of your three points at once. Atreya Ṛṣi: One thing here is that we are not talking about religion or designation. Guest: In that case I think we have no (indistinct). Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, it's not a religion. Prabhupāda: No, if you want to study something, and suppose you are sometimes from India, the same subject he's going to study in foreign country, farther enlightenment, it is also not necessary that to study a subject matter more and more, we have to remain in the same jurisdiction. If I am actually anxious to know more and more, it doesn't matter whether I get the knowledge from Mohammedan or Hindu or Christian, it doesn't matter. Knowledge is knowledge. When a student goes from one country to another to get farther enlightenment on a subject matter, he does not think that "I'll have to learn it from here, from my university." For knowledge, progress of knowledge, you can go to any university. Because knowledge must be scientific. It is not restricted within the jurisdiction of a particular university. So, sun we are seeing, everyone, the sun, getting heat and light but if anyone is interested (to) know how the heat is coming, how the light is coming, what is the situation of the sun globe, whether there are living entities or not. They're also subject matter. So if you can get enlightenment of the sun, we should not restrict ourselves that we have to study with this jurisdiction of my university, or my country, or my society. If the knowledge is there, we should be prepared to go forward. Mm. Lady: If we believe in God as the Supreme Being... I have a question. Why do we wish to God, to Kṛṣṇa movement in chanting worldly name because the name of God is something which is eternal. If Kṛṣ... Prabhupāda: Hold on, then, what is the name of God? Lady: Right, in Christianity there is write: "In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God." Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is the name of God? Lady: In Islamic religion, they say... Prabhupāda: No, what is the name of God? Islam is the system of religion, but what is the name of God? Lady: The name of God is something which is always with God, constantly with God... Prabhupāda: That means you do not know that. You do not know that. Lady: I do know that... Prabhupāda: Then why don't you say? Lady: ...experience the name of God... *Guest: It's very similar to what we have got in Bhagavad*-gītā. He says, "You call it Allah..." Prabhupāda: That's all right. Guest: "...or you call it ātman, whatever name you call it, He has all nicest names." So all nicest name are His. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: That's what we have got in... *Prabhupāda: Well, I accept, I accept that all the, that's all right, all the nicest name. So Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. Is it not very nice? Just reply whether this Kṛṣṇa name is nice or not? Guest: Yes, of course. Nobody is against Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Then chant it. Then chant it. Guest: Everybody loves Kṛṣṇa and... Prabhupāda: No, no, if you accept Kṛṣṇa name is nice, then chant it. Guest: I don't think that point is... Prabhupāda: No, you say God has got the nicest name. Guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: I say... Guest: But the name is just an indication, the name is something we call it, it is for us to have a word. Prabhupāda: But that I ask you, that what is that name? As I have... We have got the nicest name, Kṛṣṇa. Now you suggest that this is the nicest name in Mohammedan, Kṛṣṇa. You say me that. Atreya Ṛṣi: Allah. Prabhupāda: You say, "What is that name?" Guest: First of all, this man is talking (indistinct) any difference to call it Allah. Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't make any difference but I want to know, I want to know what is that nicest name. I don't make any difference. Guest: Well, it's called (indistinct) they call it Allah. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then our request is that you chant the name of God. So if Allah is the name of God, you chant Allah, don't chant Kṛṣṇa. We say that. Lady: The name of God is not something could be spoken to (indistinct), it is unspoken. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept that. Name means it can be spoken. (guests all speak at once) Not commentary, name means that... When I call you by your name, it is spoken. It is spoken. I know your name... If I say I cannot speak it. (laughter) This is... Guest: ...is for me to designate me because it is... Prabhupāda: No, you have said that God's name is Allah, that is accepted. Very good. And we request you... Guest: ...means of communication. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest: Just, not that, no, a word Allah is not to God, it is a means of communication. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have accepted the name of God as Allah, is it not? Atreya Ṛṣi: But he's saying that their name is material, it's different... Prabhupāda: No, no, then you have no idea of God. God is not material. God is not material. Guest: Well, you have said though have a lion, lion who lives in the forest and you write lion. Prabhupāda: That is material, that is material. Guest: What you write here is not the true lion. Is, is a way of communication, you put it here in words. Prabhupāda: Lion is, lion is material, and his name is also material, but God is not material. God is spiritual. Therefore His name is spiritual. Guest: We accept that. Prabhupāda: As spiritual... (two of the guests speak at once) Guest: What do you think about the spirit? Guest (2): Soul, human soul, soul is not material, but when you write it, it's a word, a material word. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, but the name of God, we accept as the same quality as God. If it is a concocted name, then it's not the same quality. But if it is the name of God, given to us by God, or by His representatives, we accept that as good as God and that is the philosophy behind chanting. Otherwise why chant? Guest: Well, it's a very old teaching. We have got it. Atreya Ṛṣi: I know you have it, accept it. Accept it. There is no question, just accept it. It doesn't matter if you have got it, or I have got it. Guest: You attribute some sort of mysterious attributes to word, to certain word. Atreya Ṛṣi: None. There is only... Guest: They are created by the human being. Atreya Ṛṣi: It is not created by human being. Guest: It is because it does..., it differs from one country to from one language to other language. Atreya Ṛṣi: God, God has many, many names like it says in Koran. Guest: Yes, but one name in Turkish when you say Tamgri, Tari (?) in Arabic when you say Allah, in French, in English, in Sanskrit. So these are different words. Prabhupāda: But... Atreya Ṛṣi: Those are names. Guest: These different things are created by human beings. Atreya Ṛṣi: We are talking about one name which is to describe the concept of God. When we are also talking about the name of God. When we are talking about the name of God... In other words, if I don't know who you are, I have to ask somebody, "What is his name?" That is your name. Guest: But my name is my name in Turkey, in English, in Arabic, in anywhere you go. Prabhupāda: That's all right, then let the Turkish chant the name of Turkish name. Guest: But God, the name is different. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, But if you find what his name is,... Prabhupāda: But the name must be chanted that is our program. It may be Turkish name, it may be Arabic name, it may be Sanskrit name. Whatever he knows let him chant. That is our program. *Atreya Ṛṣi: But the concept of name of God is separate than designation, which you are talking about. Man*-made designation. And this concept, if you don't accept this concept, how do you accept the concept of chanting in Islam. These are the points. Bhagavad-gītā also. There are so many concepts in there, but we want to interpret them all, we don't want to accept them. We want to accept our mind. Prabhupāda, what he has been saying all evening is: "Let's accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority. Let's accept Koran as authority. Let's accept an authority." Because we want to go by our senses. We want to go around modern... Guest: Yes, (indistinct) as authorities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: But let us accept it. Let us accept it. It's not they... I accept them and they are still the victim of my interpretation. If we accept them, what is this? That let's not interpret that God's name is just a designation just like my name. It's just a word. Guest: Name cannot be perfect(?). Name of name cannot be perfect. Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, then we are talking about the difference... Guest: Something is something else. Atreya Ṛṣi: What is it? Guest: You are entitled to chant the name of your beloved, that is something else. It does not mean different stages with the name... Atreya Ṛṣi: But who is this beloved? Who is this beloved? Who is this beloved? Who is this beloved? Guest: In our case, God. Atreya Ṛṣi: So this name of God is diff... If God is transcendental, if God is spiritual then how could His name be committed to our relative conceptions. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...indicates God, then it is not bad. That is our point. If we indicates to God... Just like Allah. If this name indicates to God, then it is this Allah word as good as God. There is no difference. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija sarva śakti. The Allah, the conception of Allah means The Great, is it not? So God is Great. So by chanting Allah, I am meaning God, the Supreme Person, so it is as good. And actually in Mosque, they chant Allah*-u-akbar, like that, so far I've heard. So that prayer, if it is not God's name, then what is the use of this prayer? That is God's name. Similarly, the Hindus may chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're indicating to the same personality. It may be different language; therefore, it is as good as God because God is absolute. But this, this name is authorize because Muhammad said that you chant, "Allah." So it is authorized, because he is God's representative. Therefore my request is, or our request is that you chant the name of Allah. We don't say that you chant Kṛṣṇa. You chant the Holy name of God. If Allah is approved name of God, you chant it. That is our request. We don't force you that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. No, we don't say that. If somebody says Jehovah is the name of God, that's all right, you chant Jehovah. Allah is the name of God, that's all right, you do it. We simply request that you chant the holy name of God. That's all. If you have got it, we don't force you that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. That is not our way. We accept: if Allah is God's name, it is as good as the name Kṛṣṇa. We are not so sophisticated that you have to chant this Kṛṣṇa's name. No, we say: Harer nāma. That is the śāstra, harer nāma. The name of the Lord. So there are many thousands of names, that's a fact. So you actually chant the name of God. Pick up of the millions of God's name, whatever you like, you pick up and chant. That is our propagation. Lady: Before you ask with something else. I ask, how could you meet the Supreme being by chanting... Prabhupāda: By chanting, yes. Lady: ...by chanting of worldly name, tuned on prayer... Prabhupāda: That is not worldly name. Why do you mistake that? God's name is not worldly. Lady: Because if you, if you really know the tuning of God... Prabhupāda: Do you think Allah is wordly name? Lady: We recognize that it is before Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: That's all right, you recognize it. Allah, Allah is not worldly name. It is given by the authority Muhammad so you have to chant it, who knows God. Lady: But he didn't really mean Allah is the name of God. Prabhupāda: If... Why do you say he didn't mean? Lady: Because... Prabhupāda: That is you say. Muhammad did not say that "What I say, I did not mean it." Lady: No, the name of God. He didn't mean Allah. Prabhupāda: You say, you say. Who cares for your word? Muhammad said this is the name of God. We have to accept, that's all. Lady: So why... Prabhupāda: You cannot say he didn't mean. You are not a private secretary of Muhammad. (laughter) Lady: So then how do they say that the name of God rests in God. Prabhupāda: No, these things are not accepted. Lady: Was before God. Prabhupāda: Don't talk childish. Lady: Was God. Prabhupāda: Muhammad said. That is authority. That we accept. We accept Muhammad as the representative of God. Whatever he says, we accept, that's all. What you meant, that is his business. But he is authority, he said that "This is the name of God. You chant, you pray." Allah or God. That's all. That is authority. Guest: Is it also good to chant the name of a person who is holy, who is one with God, not the name of God. Prabhupāda: That you have to find out, but here it is already there. Why should do trouble to find out a holy man, another holy man? The holy man says, Muhammad never said that "You chant my name." Then how one can be holy man if he says like that? We have to test whether he is holy man or not. Here is the perfect holy man. He never said that "You chant my name." He said "Chant Allah's name." That is holy man. That is test of holy man. He does not become God, he serves God. That is holy man. Devotee: (indistinct) Prabhupāda: All right. Take, give prasādam. All right. Devotee: We have a feast. Prabhupāda: All right. Devotee: Thank you Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (devotees pay obeisances, and some guests leave) Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] Devotee: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: We accept Muhammad's authority. That's a fact. He's authority. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, this girl is a follower of Guru Maharaji. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: (indistinct) this way. Atreya Ṛṣi: So she thinks she has experience. Prabhupāda: Very nonsense. Atreya Ṛṣi: She speaks sweetly to attract other people's mind, and when people are not really sincere, they think, "Ah, she has..." Prabhupāda: Some realization. Atreya Ṛṣi: So many, they don't realize that spiritual life is not so cheap. Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that you, your person cannot (indistinct). So is Guru Maharaji came here? Atreya Ṛṣi: No, they came. Devotee: They're his representatives. That's his philosophy that there is no, you cannot speak the name of God. It's too sacred to speak it. You can only feel it inside. And he never... His disciples they look at each other and say, "You can feel the name of God, eh?" And the other one says, "Oh yes," and another one says, "Yes, me too." But actually, they call it the sixth principle. Prabhupāda: But if he says, "No, I don't feel," is that difficulty? Devotee: Then he'll be cast away. Atreya Ṛṣi: What they don't have really, is the practice of devotional service. They don't have... Prabhupāda: That is finished, I think. Their propaganda is already finished. Nobody cares for them. How they are...? You can cheat all people for some time, and some people for all time, (laughter) but not all people for all time. That is not possible. This is their policy. Some fruits are there? Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda. Some juice also. Atreya Ṛṣi: Shall we make some fresh juice? Prabhupāda: No, no. That's all right. (end) Morning Walk -- March 25, 1975, Calcutta *Prabhupāda: ...you take away money for serving daridra*-nārāyaṇa. When you go to India, we see all daridra-nārāyaṇas are lying down on the footpath. What do you do with this money? Swami Nikhilānanda personally told me that they now enquire. Acyutānanda: He died there last year. Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, here is another skyscraper? Karandhara: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Multi*-stories. *Guru*-kṛpa: I think in India they're only fogscraper. They are not very high. Prabhupāda: Oh, fog? Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta Prabhupāda: (Says something in Hindi) [break] ...different desires, they are getting different conditions of life. Therefore we find so many species and forms of life. Guest (Indian Press Representative): Is it possible, some of our..., is it possible on the spiritual platform? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only platform where... Guest: But do you think that... *Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. That is after being brahma-bhūtaḥ. Guest: But are all religions following? There are so many sects. *Prabhupāda: According to... No, why according? This is fact. Religion which is not on the samyavāda, that is not religion. That is some mental concoction. This samyavāda platform is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, as I have quoted already, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. When one is spiritually realized, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ, and the symptom is prasannātmā. So when one is prasannātmā, naturally he is on the samyavāda platform. On the material platform, nobody is prasannātmā. Nobody. Guest: But on the spiritual platform, everybody? Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual platform means prasannātmā. That is the distinction. And the material platform means nobody is satisfied. A man, millionaires, he is also committing suicide. Guest: But do you think that all men can stand on the spiritual platform? *Prabhupāda: All men can stand or not stand*-that is a different question. The fact is this. Suppose if I say, "Unless you become a graduate, you cannot enter law college." Now this question does not arise that whether everyone will be graduate. But this is the condition. This is the condition. Anyone who fulfills this condition, he can be admitted. Guest: Then what is the condition prescribed for standing on the spiritual platform? Prabhupāda: This is the spiritual platform, Guest: Our aim of life should be the realization of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because at the present moment we are part and parcel. Just like a son, he has got the symptoms of his father, but he does not know who is his father. He does not know who is his father. There is a Hindi proverb, bap ka beta sipaika gora kusnaita tora tola: "The son inherits the quality of the father, but if he does not know who is his father, then what is his position?" That is going on. The scientist, he is trying to create something, but he does not know the supreme creator. Do you follow? Now the scientists are trying to create living being in the laboratory. But he does not enquire that who has already created so many millions of living entities? He is trying to create a living entity in laboratory. Suppose he creates one living entity. Then what credit is there for him? But he is spending lakhs and crores of rupees. Guest: Then what should the scientists' role? *Prabhupāda: Scientists' role, not only scientists, scientists, philosopher, politician*-everyone should endeavor that "Wherefrom we got these propensities? Where is the origin?" That is described in the Vedānta-sūtra: athāto brahma jijñāsā. I am a scientist. I am thinking of myself very great man, but I do not think that "Who is that great scientist under whose order the sun, moon, the sea, ocean, everything is working very properly?" I am thinking of that water is created by hydrogen, oxygen, but I do not inquire, "Wherefrom such hugh quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came, so that there is big oceans and seas, water?" That I don't enquire. So I am so foolish scientist. I am theorizing. I am theorizing that life has come from matter, chemical composition, but as soon as I ask that "I give you the chemical. You create," he says, "That I cannot do." This is going on. But our business is, we Kṛṣṇa conscious, that we see that you scientists, you are trying to create a living being, but I glorify the Supreme who has already created millions and millions of living beings. I give you credit that... I cannot give you credit unless you create. But still, as you are thinking that you will be able in future, that's good... But what credit you will have? If I have got millions of rupees, and if you create ten rupees, then what is your credit? Even if you create? You cannot do it. You will never be able to create life. That's a fact. That we know. But even if you are able to create, then what credit you, do you get. This is... Already there are millions and trillions of life. Why you are so proud that "We are going to create in the laboratory, life." Why this false prestige? Guest: So what is the idea behind the movement? Prabhupāda: Behind the movement, that... This is the idea, that you try to understand the Supreme Being behind all, everything. That is perfection. Guest: And what is the ultimate goal of tapasya? Prabhupāda: Tapasya means that by his knowledge... Suppose you are scientist. You prove by scientific way that here is the supreme scientist who has given us all these laws. Guest: Is it possible to see the Supreme? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: With our own eyes? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Guest: It is possible? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even if it is not possible, but you have to accept there is a supreme scientist. If you cannot see Him, that is your disqualification. That is your disqualification. But you have to admit that there is a supreme scientist. If you say that hydrogen and oxygen mixed together makes water, that's all right. But who has created this big sea and ocean? Wherefrom the hydrogen, oxygen came? Who supplied? That is intelligence. Simply theoretical I know, but I cannot say who has created this big, vast mass of water by mixing hydrogen, oxygen. Wherefrom such huge quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came? Our point of view, that you scientists, you say that hydrogen, oxygen creates water, and here we see that somebody has created, but not somebody will know who is that body, how great He is. And that is our credit. If you want little credit by experimenting, hydrogen, oxygen mixed together, then how much credit should be given who has created the vast Atlantic Ocean, not only one, millions! Why don't you give credit? Guest: You should give. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our point. Guest: But are you not giving credit? *Prabhupāda: No, nobody is giving. They are denying. Especially these so*-called scientists, they are denying the existence of God. Devotee: "God is dead." *Prabhupāda: "God is dead" or "There is no God." "By science, we shall do everything," and this and..., all nonsense theories. Our proposition is that glorify that supreme scientist. Yad*-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Guest: And the supreme scientist is God. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: He's God. Yes. Guest: God, or you can give another name as you like, any way. Prabhupāda: No, God or the Supreme Being. God means the Supreme Being in the dictionary. He is not like you, not like me. Guest: What about... Prabhupāda: Anyway, He is supreme. We are not supreme. But this subordinate person, he wants to take the position of the supreme by manufacturing a drop of water in the laboratory. Guest: So what is the easiest way to see the Supreme Being with our own eyes? *Prabhupāda: That you have to take advice from the Supreme. The Supreme says, "If you want to know Me..." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]. You have to take the way of the Supreme. "Simply by devotional service one can understand Me, what I am actually, is." You have to take this way. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching everyone this bhakti*-yogam so that one can understand the Supreme and submit to Him, yes. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. When one understands by acquiring knowledge after many, many births, then he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ [Bg. 7.19]. This is the first-class mahātmā. That we are teaching. It is not a sentiment. Most scientific. *Guest: Is it possible for poverty*-stricken people, those who have to earn bread and money by the sweat of their brow? Prabhupāda: According to śāstra, poverty is no impediment for understanding God. Because we see practically that those who are great souls, they have voluntarily accepted poverty. Guest: Just like Pratapudro(?). Prabhupāda: Many. Just like Vyāsadeva. There is no comparison of his literature. One cannot write one line like him. But he was living in a cottage. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, such a great politician, he was living in a cottage. He did not keep any Rolls Royce car or like that. Rather, this material opulence is impediment to understand God. So it is not that I say, comparatively inferior, not that material opulence is also another check, no. Neither poverty is check nor material opulence is check. Anyone can understand if he follows the principle or process. Guest: Process as laid down in *Gītā*? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ABCD. Then you can go further on. If you read Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, there is everything explained, everything. All problems are solved. Any problem you propose, there is solution in the Bhagavad-gītā. Now this poverty, as you raised this question, poverty, so what is written there in the Bhagavad-gītā? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. This is instruction, that "You produce food grain." Now, suppose Calcutta is a big city. Who is producing food grain? Everyone is trying to purchase food grain. But who is thinking that "Wherefrom the food grain will come?" Just see the foolishness of the people. You have to produce food grain. And there is ample facility. But throughout the whole world there are hundreds and thousands of cities. Now, who is producing food grain? The solution is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. He said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said, "By motor tire bhavanti bhūtāni." Bhavanti means flourish. Everyone is engaged in producing motor tire, car, and they are flattering the Arabians for petrol. The same energy, if it would have been engaged in producing food grain, then where is the poverty? (Someone enters) Oh! Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya. Trivikrama: These men have just come from America. Prabhupāda: (Says something in Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A new Back to Godhead. New issue, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 750,000 copies printed. Our party ordered 200,000. Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered, Guest: Is it possible to be brāhmaṇa for all? *Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Kṛṣṇa said, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Guest: (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize*-what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain? Guest: The whole nation is worker? Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager? Guest: (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur*-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler. Guest: (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: Yes, (Bengali) ...really classless society. They should not be proud that "I am brāhmaṇa." No. As you are required, as much, the śūdra is also required. It is not that only the brāhmaṇas are required. This is a very scientific movement. (Bengali) It is not a bogus sentimental thing. It is a very scientific movement. It is not so*-called yogi and swami and everything equal. And where is equality? Guest: The Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is a scientific movement? Prabhupāda: Most scientific. Guest: (Bengali) to realize the Supreme. Prabhupāda: Realize the Supreme, that is the first and foremost aim, but at the same time, to keep the whole human society in perfect happiness, according to the direction of God. Just like I told you that Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you want to keep the living entities, both men and animal, you must arrange for their nice fooding. Who can deny this philosophy? But they are saying that poverty should be removed, and we must acquire food for the suffering and starving. But what they are doing? They are manufacturing motor tire, the rascals. Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) There is no question of dharma. First of all we say they must live. That is our proposal. Where is the question of dharma? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Give everyone to eat sufficiently. This is our proposal. Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Guest: (Bengali) *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is the actual attempt to give everyone sufficient food? Where is that attempt? And here in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is plainly said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: [Bg. 3.14] if you want to keep happy the animals and the men, then produce food grain. Who is doing that? They simply passing resolution and raising funds and then eating, themself, at the cost of others. And therefore the price is increasing. One who has got money, he can pay more price, artificial. I am poor man. I have no money. You have got money. You purchase before me. Then I starve. But if there is sufficient supply of food grain, then this thing will not happen. You can distribute without any price. That was being done in India. Educated man means unemployment, is it not? So-called education means creating unemployment. They will go with application, "Give me some clerical post, some this post, that post, that post." This is education. Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. If you don't take advice from Kṛṣṇa, God, then you are a mūḍha. So how he will adjust things? He himself is a mūḍha. A mūḍha means rascal, ass. Therefore our conclusion is that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or God conscious, he is a mūḍha. He does not know anything. He will not be able to do anything. Therefore this matter was entrusted to the brāhmaṇa to give direction. Brāhmaṇa means brahma jānatīti brāhmaṇaḥ: "One who knows the Supreme, he is brāhmaṇa." And he takes advice and gives others direction. (Bengali) Why do they go to the bhaṭṭācārya? And he knows what is the action and reaction. That was the system of the society. (Bengali) Nobody is interested. They are simply interested in politics. Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) If you want to act as lawyer, you must learn. You must have legal education. (to devotees:) So you take your bath and prasādam. Wherefrom you are coming? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From New York. Prabhupāda: Oh, direct? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: How many hours? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actual flight time was twenty*-three hours, but with the time change, about thirty-six hours. *Prabhupāda: You were in the, thirty*-six hours in the plane? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were in the plane about twenty*-four hours. *Prabhupāda: Three hours extra. We had to come here, twenty*-one hours. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it stopped in London, Rome, Beirut... Prabhupāda: Indian plane? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, an Air India. We came, altogether, ninety*-six devotees. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where are they? They have gone? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are in Māyāpur. They have gone. They have been met by a big bus, three buses, and are going on to Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is Gargamuni? Srutakirti: He's outside. Prabhupāda: Call him, call him. (Bengali) So? Nobody came? Gargamuni: No, we sent three notices. But five of them are coming to Māyāpur. They called up. Prabhupāda: All right. (Bengali) You have got any written statement of our mission? Guest: Mission activities? Gargamuni: I gave him a Back to Godhead and the BBT about your books. Prabhupāda: So you have already supplied. Gargamuni: I gave him one copy of Back to Godhead and that BBT... You have it there? And the BBT catalogue which gives your history and everything. Prabhupāda: And catalogue? Where is? This is BBT? Gargamuni: Yes. This tells about your books. Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. You can question; *I will understand. [break] They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa*-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself. He does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind. So what will be the result? They are bound up... Suppose if I tightly wrap your eyes, and all of them are done so, then how you will lead them? Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers? *Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and... Guest: (Bengali) Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind. Guest: Without being...? Prabhupāda: Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. And they are trying to lead other blind men. So what will be the result? All of them will fall down on the ditch. Guest: And they attempt to lead others... *Prabhupāda: Blind men. Therefore this fact is summarized in the Bhagavad*-gītā in the words, Morning Walk -- March 26, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...Germany. Yes. Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: So anyone, our men can do it immediately. Hṛdayānanda: Acyutānanda can do it. Prabhupāda: No. Anyone can do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, now that brass dome is on top. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The big one. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Devotee: Do you think that we should make these marble here, on the side? Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mäyäpur Atreya Ṛṣi: ...has done, and what everyone likes to do. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Atreya Ṛṣi: And then we will decide. Jayatīrtha: That's nice. That's nice. So I can go on and read these...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: I hope this isn't, er... Anyway, this is discussing the responsibilities of the GBC men in their zones. So we've already said to organize opening new temples, to appoint temple presidents for new temples, to be responsible for training all temple presidents and insuring spiritual standards. In the case of major deviation or resignation... Prabhupāda: Now, you... First of all, you finish one business. That Oath of Allegiance, so addition, alteration, you have made, complete, so that it may be typed? Jayatīrtha: Satsvarūpa is... Satsvarūpa: The only thing we've done is comment that Asnani's form hasn't specified on devotional principles. Prabhupāda: So make addition, alteration, I say. You amongst yourselves. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, add that one must follow four regulative prin... Satsvarūpa: I can just add what Brahmānanda Mahārāja has. Prabhupāda: So do it amongst yourselves. Jayatīrtha: All right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants to finalize. Prabhupāda: Discuss and do it, and make a final... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Oath of Allegiance is a legal document also, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Eh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's both a legal document and a spiritual document. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Everything we have is spiritual. Prabhupāda: We cannot avoid. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there must be legal also. That's the point. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: So somebody can read it? Prabhupāda: So next make this final. Atreya Ṛṣi: I recommend that you put Brahmānanda Swami's reco..., on the top part, just... Prabhupāda: Hmmm? What is that? Atreya Ṛṣi: Brahmānanda Swami's proposals, top portion, we'll just add? Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever you make, addition, alteration, make it copied. Atreya Ṛṣi: And give it to be typed. Prabhupāda: Don't keep it. Finish one business. Satsvarūpa: So it's just a matter of typing it, then? Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: We can't sign anything now. It's not any... Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, you are... You make some addition, alteration, to that. So make it complete. Then retype and then sign. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Everyone has agreed on what it should be. Atreya Ṛṣi: Has everyone agreed? Madhudviṣa: Well, why don't you read it? Why don't you compose it and then let us all see what it says. Satsvarūpa: If I can read it out loud... Can I have the other...? Brahmānanda: We're... Read what the proposal at the top portion... Madhudviṣa: I give Satsvarūpa the whole thing in that...(?) Satsvarūpa: All right. So the whole thing, then, would read like... This is a proposal that it should read like this: "I, spiritual name, as initiated disciple, and GBC secretary of His Divine Grace..." Madhudviṣa: Both names should be there. Atreya Ṛṣi: No, prabhuji... Madhudviṣa: Spiritual and, and, and legal name... Atreya Ṛṣi: It should start with this. Satsvarūpa: Well, it's not sure what it should start with. That's it. Madhudviṣa: Both names should be there because a spiritual name is not legal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Jayatīrtha: Both names. Good. Satsvarūpa: "...as GBC secretary of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder..." Prabhupāda: You... You... You make one copy, your copy, and make addition, alteration, corrections, and then copy the same thing for other men. That will be easier. Satsvarūpa: All right. Prabhupāda: You... You just fill up one copy, as you are doing. So make addition, alteration, your name, your spiritual name, everything complete. So, following that copy, others will do. (?) Is that all right? Atreya Ṛṣi: I recommend that we keep this one. Prabhupāda: Or you can make... Anyone, you can take. Atreya Ṛṣi: In this shape. Prabhupāda: You, you can make addition, alteration, everything, and read it complete. Then take that proposal. That's all. Jayatīrtha: So maybe, Atreya Ṛṣi, you can write out a final draft of it... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: ...including both things, and then you can read it to everyone. Atreya Ṛṣi: Where's Brahmānanda Swami? Jayatīrtha: Is that all right? Should we go on while he's writing? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: We can go on. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Jayatīrtha: The main purpose of these points is simply to try to put it down in writing what the GBC man can do himself, what things he requires-the whole group*-what things he requires to consult with others on, in this way, so there won't be any question "What I can do, what I can't do." Is that all right? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Jayatīrtha: O.K. (Reading) "To insure that the highest standards, including spiritual temple worship, saṅkīrtana propaganda, recruitment of new devotees and life members, financial management and repayment of all debts are being adhered to." Prabhupāda: Why debts? Debts should be avoided. Not payment, but one should not make debt. Jayatīrtha: But that... All temples... All the temples are in debt. Prabhupāda: Why? That's not... Debts are very wrong. (?) Jayatīrtha: Either they owe BBT money or they owe bank money. Prabhupāda: That is not good. Debts should be... No debts. If any temple wants to make debt, it must be sanctioned by the GBC committee. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Make it clear. Jayatīrtha: That's nice. Prabhupāda: Not that he whimsically, the president, and put the Society into debts, unless it is sanctioned. Jayatīrtha: That's included in here, more or, more or less. Prabhupāda: Make it clear: "They cannot create any debt." Jayatīrtha: Just like to come to this festival has put everyone in debt. Prabhupāda: That is risky. That is risky. Rūpānuga: Be very specific about it. Jayatīrtha: Right. The next point is to insure... Atreya Ṛṣi: Let me just make sure this is understood. Any, any debts that any temple has, is going to make, has to be approved by the GBC representative. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you say debt, do you mean a loan? Atreya Ṛṣi: Loan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. Atreya Ṛṣi: But... Prabhupāda: Loan is also debt. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But if they are buying BBT books, if... On the books it may seem debt, but in fact he should know that he's going to pay for it in the very near fu... That you do not consider need approval, do you, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Jayatīrtha: The books are sold on consignment. Prabhupāda: No, and that is all right. That is all right. Jayatīrtha: If they fall behind, then it becomes a debt. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's different. Thirty days pay... Atreya Ṛṣi: In other words, as long as he meets the terms, it's not a debt. It's not a loan. Prabhupāda: That's it. Atreya Ṛṣi: As soon as it goes over the term, it's unapproved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then a loan where you're paying on time, is that considered a debt? Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. That's a loan. That has to be approved. That has to be, as much as possible, avoided. In other words, everything you're doing, more or less, on cash basis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: You don't depend on tomorrow. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: Otherwise, sometimes a president may leave, leaving so many debts, so many loans, so many this, so many that. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is our standard of management. Listen. If the temple president doesn't understand it, teach him. Jayatīrtha: That's right. Prabhupāda: That's right. So all these things you write. Otherwise you forget. Jayatīrtha: Yeah, that, we'll... The next point is to insure that the proper criterion for recommending candidates for initiation be followed... Prabhupāda: That is being done. Jayatīrtha: ...and to insure that the... Prabhupāda: The president recommends, or the GBC recommends. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any fixed amount of time that one has to be in the Society to get first, hari*-nāma, initiated? Because I... Prabhupāda: That we have already fixed, six months to one year. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Six months to one year. And for brāhmaṇa initiation? Rūpānuga: One year, you said, after that. Prabhupāda: No, within one year. That's all. If one, within one year, one does not become to the standard, then he's unfit. Atreya Ṛṣi: The recommendation here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that... Prabhupāda: Generally by the president. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that the president's recommendation is overseeing, is scrutinized, by GBC, so that when Your Divine Grace gets a recommendation, it's been, by someone else, it's been checked. Do you think it's unnecessary? Prabhupāda: It is. Atreya Ṛṣi: Unnecessary. Jaya Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: If one is not personally sincere, however he is checked... Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, so this is unnecessary. Prabhupāda: ...then he's useless. Useless. Atreya Ṛṣi: In other words, an addition, "directly," directly... You know we just have to put down what Prabhupāda... Directly president can... Prabhupāda: Generally, it is one year after. (?) Atreya Ṛṣi: Put it down. Jayatirtha: Right, right. Prabhupāda: At least not for... (?) Atreya Ṛṣi: Jayatīrtha, put... "Directly goes..." Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, after first initiation, one has to wait one year to get second initiation? Prabhupāda: Six months. Rūpānuga: At least six months. Jayatīrtha: Six months after first initiation. All right. So the next role for the GBC man is to act as the designated representative of Śrīla Prabhupāda to settle all philosophic, procedural disputes which may arise and are not settled at the temple level. In other words, any philosophic question a temple president can't ans... Prabhupāda: No, you... Eh? Jayatīrtha: If there's some philosophic question and the temple president can't answer it, then the GBC... Prabhupāda: Then GBC should be consulted. And if the GBC cannot answer, then I'll answer. *Jayatīrtha: Right. Or, if there's some quarrel*-one man doesn't like another man, and the temple president can't solve it-then... Prabhupāda: What is quarrel? Jayatīrtha: ...the GBC man can solve it. Prabhupāda: There is no question of quarrel. Quarrel is material. Jayatīrtha: Yes. But it is the Age of Quarrel. Prabhupāda: Quarrel is not good. Jayatīrtha: The next point is to obtain reports from the temple presidents, financial reports, like this, to see that things are being looked up. Prabhupāda: The general report should be submitted at least monthly. Jayatīrtha: Yes. So "to obtain all reports on a timely basis..." Prabhupāda: To the board of the GBC or to the individual, zonal GBC. Yes. Jayatīrtha: We have kind of a system outlined in here, how reports can be done. It's a technical thing, but... Prabhupāda: But they have that everyone is chanting sixteen rounds, everyone is following the principles, "so much money received, so much money deposited in the bank." Jayatīrtha: Right. Prabhupāda: "And this is the balance." And these are general (?) report. That's all. Jayatīrtha: Right. Yeah, we have... Prabhupāda: The financial means what they have collected, what they have spent. Jayatīrtha: Right. Prabhupāda: And general reporting: "Yes, everyone is chanting," or "He is not chanting in spite of warning," like that. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is very good. Jayatīrtha: So we have some guidelines in here about that. So, so should I go on with this? Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayatīrtha: So then the next thing, besides having a zonal responsibility, a GBC man may have a functional responsibility, like we've already discussed. Prabhupāda: Functional, main functional responsibility is to go and see that the temple regular work is going on, the president is doing nicely, to check in this way. You can sit down in the class, in the..., and see how things are going on. That's it. Jayatīrtha: That's it. Now, one point we've included that we haven't really done before is the idea of establishing committees and individual service... Prabhupāda: Committee, I shall appoint also, if there is any need. Amongst the GBC, I shall pick up some members and make a committee for a particular... Jayatīrtha: For example, we put down that there may be a regional committee. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: Just like in Europe, we have a regional committee for managing, I understand... Prabhupāda: What is that regional co...? Jayatīrtha: Isn't it Bhagavān, Haṁsadūta...? Prabhupāda: Yes, I have said that Haṁsadūta, Bhagavān and Brahmānanda may... Jayatīrtha: So it's a kind of regional committee for managing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: So we similarly... Prabhupāda: That we can change also. For the time being, it is going on. Atreya Ṛṣi: I think what Śrīla Prabhupāda has said to us is that if we have very close cooperation, the spirit of committee consultation always exists... Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Like if Bhagavān dāsa is in U.S., then Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and Rūpānuga Prabhu will consult with him, like they always consult with each other. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: They should always... And this spirit should go on amongst the twelve. Or if I'm in Tehran, and if there is a financial matter... Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't bring politics. Then it will be ruined. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. The spirit should be that you write me and ask me, and I will give you all the service that I can. This should come in us. Jayatīrtha: For example, in the United States... Atreya Ṛṣi: Not so much, necessarily, committees and formal... Prabhupāda: So if a committee is necessary, it should be decided, first stage, decided by the GBC, and I'll give final sanction. Jayatīrtha: For example, one committee that I would propose is in the United States, since we share so many similar problems and so many problems overlap... Prabhupāda: So you... No, the GBC is already there. But that is... Committee is there, the whole committee. But for any special purpose, if committee is required... Jayatīrtha: Another example of a kind of committee would be some projects. Say... Prabhupāda: Project will be decided by the GBC. Jayatīrtha: Say, the Gurukula, for example... Prabhupāda: Now I have elected this committee in Europe because the German trouble is going on. When the German trouble is over, there is no need of committee. It is only for this particular purpose because there we have to defend court, we have to see... So two, three heads, not one head. One head may be puzzled. Committee means for special purposes. Otherwise, the standing committee, GBC, is already there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as a question... Prabhupāda: Just like I appointed the committee to investigate... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali Mardana. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committee is not standing. Yet similarly, a committee may be formed for some special circumstances, but otherwise the GBC committee is sufficient. Jayatīrtha: The main point about that is that the GBC, we all meet together once a year... Prabhupāda: Yes. And form all, what is to be discussed, what you are going to do, future. Just like you can discuss the German affairs, and find out how to defend ourselves. Of course, it is in the hands of the lawyer. Still, we can suggest... Jayatīrtha: Take, for another example, there's the ISKCON Food Relief Program. Now, last year we discussed this, but no one was given any specific responsibility for it, and nothing really has been... Some money has been collected, but nothing major has been done. My idea would be that if there were a committee, say, of two, three men formed who would conjointly discuss and work on these projects, such as this ISKCON Food Relief, then more would get done. Haṁsadūta: No, I think it's entirely an individual... Prabhupāda: I think this Oath of Allegiance should be signed by the presidents also. Jayatīrtha: That's nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also. Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only the GBC, but the president. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I just want to ask a question. We're in a... This meeting right now is concerning ISKCON and the GBC, but are we going to have some kind of meeting regarding the BBT? Because that's a very pressing matter also. Is that going to come in in these discussions, or are we going to have a separate meeting? Prabhupāda: The BBT I am conducting personally. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you mentioned in Miami... This is the reason I'm bringing it up. In Miami we mentioned that we would be discussing at Māyāpur. Something, you know, should be done so that... Prabhupāda: What is that something? The first something is that everyone is complaining that they are not getting books. You just, first of all, do it, how to stop these complaints. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We got to get the books (indistinct) Jayatīrtha: In India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: This is the problem. Prabhupāda: The India is membership, and the members, if they are dissatisfied, then? This is not good. So find out the way how this complaint can be solved. Haṁsadūta: So does it mean that the BBT should take charge of the Life Membership program or to see that they're supplied the books? Prabhupāda: No. Life Membership... Suppose you make one Life, he has to be supplied books. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: So fifty percent goes to the... Haṁsadūta: Book Fund. Prabhupāda: That is stated in the BBT. That is the main purpose, that fifty percent must go... Haṁsadūta: For printing. Fifty percent for printing, fifty percent for building. Prabhupāda: That's all right. This is the main purpose. Brahmānanda: But the difficulty is that in India there's no other source of income besides the Life Membership. How they will maintain? Prabhupāda: What is the...? That you discuss. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, a meeting. (?) Prabhupāda: That you discuss, how these sources, how their maintenance should be... But BBT is already declared. It is meant for two purposes. Now you find out how the sources. That is business of GBC. Jayatīrtha: That we can discuss afterwards? Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda... Prabhupāda: The BBT, that, it should be: how the complaints should be stopped, and if they have no other income, then how things should be managed. That is... GBC should discuss. Atreya Ṛṣi: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda, BBT is not outside ISKCON. BBT is part of ISKCON, and GBC is in charge of all ISKCON. But in this case, BBT, you have your personal attention, so since you are the supreme authority in ISKCON, you will... Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that sometimes before, Jayatīrtha suggested that if the ISKCON goes to liquidation, then the BBT also will be affected. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is only a legal matter. Prabhupāda: Legal matter. So I want to protect BBT. Atreya Ṛṣi: Legally, you will want. But, in fact, GBC is also concerned... *Prabhupāda: That you are concerned. You do this*-now how to stop these complaints. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Now they want to maintain from the GBC income. How this can be avoided, you consider. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is not something we forget because it's BBT. Prabhupāda: Yes. But these are the important problems, that the, here in India, the members are complaining. Sometimes they are sending complaining to me. So the first business is how to, how the collection from the membership is being dispersed, how the money is being dispersed. Suppose I... He is a member. I take him, 222. Then how the money is being sent? So you see first of all that... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a GBC matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is GBC matter. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I would like to ask a question. Just like in the... Now, this is one point to consider. Now, another point is, which we have put off until this meeting, especially to be considered in this meeting, is the moving of the Press. The moving of ISKCON Press. Is that... Prabhupāda: That you decide amongst the GBC. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a GBC matter or BBT matter? Prabhupāda: No. It is GBC, er, yeah, GBC. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The GBC. Prabhupāda: Yes. I want to see, as the chairman of the BBT, that fifty percent is spent on printing and fifty percent is for constructing temples. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And who sees to that? The GBC? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The GBC. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means, practically speaking, the management... The BBT is separate from ISKCON for legal purposes, but the management of it is done by the GBC. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. Atreya Ṛṣi: However, at the present, Prabhupāda himself is heading this management. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's heading every management. Atreya Ṛṣi: But in this particular case he's heading it very particularly. This is something... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Because it's very sensitive issue. It doesn't mean separate. Rūpānuga: But now, we discussed this... We discussed this before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You said that you didn't... You wanted to make some more BBT members. Prabhupāda: If I require, I can make. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason I'm bringing this up is because, heretofore, the BBT has been managed by one or two trustees, and the point is that maybe it is best that it be managed by the GBC. Prabhupāda: So that... First of all manage these things. Then you will, it will be included in the trustees. First of all show your capacity that you have managed these things very nicely, these two things. Why there should be complaint? How you can solve it? And why the temples should be maintained by collection of the BBT? It is meant for printing and constructing temples. Why should (we) violate the purpose of the Trust? So first of all you manage these two things. Then, if you want, you can come. If the problem remains the same, then what is the use of increasing heads? Atreya Ṛṣi: What is obvious is that Prabhupāda's interference has always come because we have not done our jobs right. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: He would very much like to... Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real purpose. Atreya Ṛṣi: He would... As soon as we show that we can... Haṁsadūta: Work together. Atreya Ṛṣi: Work together and manage nicely, he wants to. Prabhupāda: Now, so far the... Just like in Germany. They unnecessarily take the money while there is creditor, printer. There was no need of keeping money. Go on paying them. That was my policy. I instructed Karandhara that whenever there is collection, go to pay. That arrangement I made with Dai Nippon, that "I shall go on paying. You don't ask me." So he never asked me. You know that. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: As soon as there is collection, I paid him: "And you go on printing these books." This should be the policy. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is very important that we understand. This is not common in the karmī world, that Śrīla Prabhupāda does not like credit or playing with money and saving it or something... You have a debt; you pay it; you don't create debt. Everything is just very honest and very flowing. This I have to learn myself because this is not the way the business world is, although I do a lot of business. And we all have to see that this policy is followed. Prabhupāda: This complaint from the members is not at all good. If somebody becomes envious, he can file a suit that "These men have collected money from me, eh, but not supplied books." Jayatīrtha: They sign a document we also sign. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: We sign one document when they become a member. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: And they sign also. It's a contract. *Prabhupāda: So this is the first thing, that the GBC maintains here. Immediately the collection is there*-fifty percent goes to the BBT account, and fifty percent goes to the printer. Atreya Ṛṣi: May I recommend, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that one GBC member, plus GBC India be appointed to look very carefully into this whole si... Prabhupāda: Be appointed. Do this. Be appointed. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. We will. Prabhupāda: Yes, do this. Atreya Ṛṣi: To investigate this whole... Prabhupāda: Why...? Just stop this complaint. Atreya Ṛṣi: This whole membership program. Prabhupāda: I am giving you the appointment. Do it. Haṁsadūta: We can consult with him later. Jayatīrtha: So we'll discuss it and try to find out the details... Atreya Ṛṣi: Put it in the agenda, this membership plan, immediately. Jayatīrtha: ...later on Prabhupāda: These complaints are not at all good. They have become very serious. Complaint must be stopped. Why they are...? Now print cheap edition here and give them books. Sell also. Rūpānuga: They cannot accuse of being cheating. Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: They cannot accuse us of cheating them. Prabhupāda: It is not good at all. Why there is complaint? Jagadīśa: So make the agenda. Jayatīrtha: I have nine points on the agenda so far. Jagadīśa: What is it? Jayatīrtha: The... Prabhupāda: Just like Śyāmasundara. He was appointed the BBT member. And what he is doing? Jayatīrtha: There's been a very high attrition rate on GBC... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: There's been a very high attrition rate on BBT trustees. Prabhupāda: So this thing should be arranged first of all. Then... Jayatīrtha: So the... There are a number of points that require discussion... Prabhupāda: So discuss... Jayatīrtha: I don't know, necessarily, that it's your desire to have them discussed in your presence or, for example... Prabhupāda: No, I don't want, but if you want, you can... Jayatīrtha: Well, we always love to have your association, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Rūpānuga: What about if you, at least, can approve the agenda? Jayatīrtha: Yes, that's nice. Rūpānuga: If you can give us your blessings... Prabhupāda: That you discuss, some of the agenda. Jayatīrtha: The agenda that we've created so far is... The first point on the agenda is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayatīrtha: Yes. You said that that should be our first point. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious movement means... It is very practical. Because our consciousness is now polluted... Just like water. Water, originally, crystal clear water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes dirty, muddy. So our consciousness*-originally clear, Kṛṣṇa consciousness: "Kṛṣṇa is my eternal master. I am eternal servant." This is real consciousness. Now, since we have come into this material world, we have made, instead of Kṛṣṇa, "My wife is my master, my society is my master, my country is my master, my political leader is my master," so many. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to purify the dirty things and then... So, to purify this, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleaning the mirror of consciousness, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is only way. Jayatīrtha: Jaya. So that's the first point. Prabhupāda: That is the first point. Jayatīrtha: And the next point ... Prabhupāda: We should know that our consciousness is now polluted. The... Exactly like this: Clear water falls down from the sky, and as soon as come in contact with the ground, it becomes muddy. You can take the water again and filter, and then again clear. Again crystal clear. Jayatīrtha: By nature water is clear. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: And sometimes it can become polluted. *Prabhupāda: And the whole devotional service means ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, cleansing the dirty-politically, socially, communally, and internationally, nationally... In this way, it is all contaminated. So that, that is called upādhi, unnecessary. Just like water. You bring the colored water. That is contamination, not crystal. So these are different colors. So you have to strain the water from different colors. Then that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Consciousness is already there. So instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa, that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," I am thinking, "I am my family's. I am my, my cat's, my dog's, my nation's, my community's..." This thinking is opposite Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when you simply think that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," that's all. That is all. Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Jayatīrtha: So, so the agenda... Prabhupāda: Is that all right? Devotees: Jaya. Atreya Ṛṣi: Just applicable to myself, it's very easy to think that "Now I am in a position of responsibility. I may be most advanced." But what your instruction is that I always think that this position of responsibility requires that I become pure, so I have to be very, very careful. I am not most advanced. I have to... Prabhupāda: That purity process is chanting. Atreya Ṛṣi: I have to chant very carefully... Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: ...and very seriously. Prabhupāda: Offenseless. Atreya Ṛṣi: Not that I'm already advanced. *Prabhupāda: Offenseless chanting, that will purify. That is the easiest process, given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ceto*-da...(?) He first of all recommends cleansing the heart. And as soon as your heart is cleansed, then you become immediately purified. This is the way. So be always engaged, either in chanting or reading or preaching. Then it will be clarified. Rūpānuga: It is actually a very easy process. *Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the easiest process. There is no secondary process. Chanting. And it is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the authority, param vijayate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. So many things will happen. Jayatīrtha: So the agenda for the GBC meeting to decide on... First of all, Jagadīśa has made one proposal for financing Gurukula, if it has to be discussed. Prabhupāda: Hm? Financing? Jayatīrtha: Gurukula is having some serious financial difficulties. So Jagadīśa has made a proposal, which we'll discuss. Prabhupāda: So everyone's son is there, all devotees' son. So from every center some contribution should be given to the Gurukula. Jayatīrtha: Jaya. That was my proposal. That becomes a kind of tax. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayatīrtha: In a sense, it's like a school tax. Prabhupāda: But, at the same time, it should be examined how Gurukula is spending money. Jayatīrtha: Yes. Jagadīśa has made a complete report. Prabhupāda: Not unnecessarily spending. That is the duty of the GBC. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about this tax, about this money to be taken from each temple. Gurukula is one of the projects. For example, there may be another project... Prabhupāda: What is that? Atreya Ṛṣi: ...that Your Divine Grace and group, when you travel, there needs to be also... Every temple should contribute to that as well. Prabhupāda: Well, if every temple cannot contribute, I shall manage from the BBT fund. That is not a problem. Atreya Ṛṣi: You want...? I am using that merely as a... Prabhupāda: And if you can pay, it is all right. If there is deficit, BBT will pay. You don't bother. Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But in this Gurukula project, Śrīla Prabhupāda, temples are having difficulty in paying their debts to BBT already. I don't think they will respond, respond. On one hand, BBT, Ramesvara Prabhu is recommending that we reduce the cost of books, and on the other hand, it's being recommended that the tax for Gurukula be collected. Prabhupāda: No, no, cost of book... Cost of books? Atreya Ṛṣi: Not cost. Price of books. Jayatīrtha: Yes, price of... Prabhupāda: Cost of selling price. Jayatīrtha: That we discussed with you in Dallas, Ramesvara and I. Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no need. There is no need. Atreya Ṛṣi: So what I was... Prabhupāda: It is not a fact that by reducing the price you'll sell more. Jayatīrtha: No, no. Not reducing the price to the public. Reducing the cost to the temple, so the temple can make more profit. Prabhupāda: That you can do. Jayatīrtha: That we discussed with you in Dallas. Atreya Ṛṣi: What I am recommending is that, instead of reducing the charge to the temple and then collecting a separate tax, do not reduce the charge to the temple. Whatever reduction you were going to give, give that reduction to Gurukula. Jayatīrtha: Then that means that BBT is paying. Atreya Ṛṣi: No, BBT is not paying. You're going to give them a reduction. Don't give it to them... Madhudviṣa: That means giving them unlimited money. Atreya Ṛṣi: Eh? Madhudviṣa: That means giving them unlimited money. Atreya Ṛṣi: No. Well, for example, let's say I... Madhudviṣa: If I distribute more books, then Gurukula gets more money. Then... They don't need all that money. Atreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: No, no. This... This is... Contribution is better for you. Atreya Ṛṣi: Separate contribution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: Does that, does that... What about those temples that don't have any children there in Gurukula. Because it seems that the problem is not just that... There are people besides devotees who are not paying... Prabhupāda: No, they can give.(?) Jagadīśa: That's part of the proposal. Why not discuss in relationship to the proposal. Jayatīrtha: Right. We have the whole proposal. Everyone has a copy, I think. So we can discuss that. The main point, I'm just saying now, is to read through the agenda and see if Prabhupāda approves that we're talking about these things, and then..., because these things are so detailed, and we have some proposals in writing. We can discuss them more. Anyway, so one proposal is Gurukula finance. Another proposal is Brahmānanda's made some proposals about Africa, specifically manpower to be sent to Africa. Another proposal... another thing is to discuss the BBT, BBT loans, moving of the Press, several points about BBT, lowering of the prices, these things... Prabhupāda: So what is the advantage of moving the Press? Jayatīrtha: That Ramesvara should be here to say. Prabhupāda: Call (?) Ramesvara. If you be..., all GBC agrees, then you do that. Jayatīrtha: All right. So if we have a separate meeting, and Ramesvara presents his proposals nicely, and everyone agrees, then we can... Prabhupāda: You consider, and then you decide. Jayatīrtha: So that's one thing to discuss. Another thing to discuss is Spiritual Sky. Madhudviṣa: Don't you think that there should be some representatives from the Press at that meeting too? Jayatīrtha: Yes, they'll be there. Prabhupāda: Now, the Spiritual Sky... I have heard that you are paying two thousand rupees, er, two thousand dollars, per month to the accountant, and one thousand dollars to Karandhara. Jayatīrtha: Yes, about that. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Jayatīrtha: Seventeen hundred dollars a month to the accountant, full*-time accountant. That is the average price in America for a first-class accountant. Otherwise, we have to hire, get Atreya Ṛṣi to come and do it. Prabhupāda: And Karandhara is taking one thousand dollars? Jayatīrtha: Well, here's the problem, that because it is a business, people must, that work there, have to get regular salary and pay taxes. Otherwise we can get in a lot of trouble. We can get in a lot of trouble. Maybe Bhagavān may know. Bhagavān: Well, I have the same thing in France. Spiritual Sky is a legal business. That means you have to legally employ people. But I employ the temple people and just take their salary. Jayatīrtha: Yes. That's all right. Bhagavān: Do you take Karandhara's salary? Jayatīrtha: No, that's a different thing. Anyway, let me finish the point. The point is that legal salary has to be paid, and then taxes have to paid from that. So for example, Karandhara's salary is not really a good example because he doesn't give fifty percent. But one thousand dollars is the salary. Bhagavān: Minimum? Minimum salary? Prabhupāda: No. Jayatīrtha: That eight hundred, two hundred goes for taxes... Prabhupāda: No our, our... That was the... Formerly, who was managing? Jayatīrtha: Formerly, I was managing. Prabhupāda: So you were also taking one thousand? Jayatīrtha: I was... But that was... But I was... I wasn't taking anything. But that was... Prabhupāda: Then? How...? Why he is taking? Jayatīrtha: Because we were working illegally. Haṁsadūta: The thing is the whole situation has deteriorated into a karmī business, and no one's making any profit on it. Jayatīrtha: Well, now, let's... Haṁsadūta: It's just a headache. Jayatīrtha: That is a... That is an unschooled statement, an uneducated statement. It's not a... Haṁsadūta: No, that's not a fact. Where is the advantage? Jayatīrtha: Anyway, let me finish... That's why I don't want to discuss this in front of Prabhupāda, because of argument. Anyway, the next point is that, as far as Karandhara's salary is concerned... Prabhupāda: No, the Spiritual Sky was contemplated that our gṛhastha bhaktas may be employed... Haṁsadūta: Yeah, but they're not employed anymore. Jayatīrtha: That's not true. Prabhupāda: And the bare necessities should be paid. Jayatīrtha: Right. Well, generally we have about seventeen, eighteen gṛhasthas employed in Los Angeles, and they get much smaller salary, and they, for the most part, they're giving everything over subsistence to the temple as donation. They take out minimum subsistence... Prabhupāda: But Karandhara is not giving anything. Jayatīrtha: Well, his point is... As you know, he made that unauthorized loan from BBT when he left, for five thousand dollars. And he has to pay it back at three hundred dollars per month. So after he makes... Prabhupāda: Unauthorized loan? Jayatīrtha: When he left last year, he took loan for five thousand dollars, and he is repaying at three hundred dollars per month. So after taxes, he gets eight hundred dollars. Three hundred dollars goes to BBT. That's five hundred. Now, with the balance, he supports his wife and children, and his wife is giving donations for Deities and so on. So he is not actually... *Prabhupāda: No, that you discuss whether he is... Otherwise I can give you a very first*-class man, but he won't charge anything. Jayatīrtha: Who is that? Prabhupāda: That I'll not disclose. (laughter) You give him simply, his wife and him, a shelter. He's Indian, I can say. Jayatīrtha: Oh. Prabhupāda: And he is qualified man. He can do. Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda... Jayatīrtha: But he's not a devotee. *Atreya Ṛṣi: Karandhara's management is-I mean I'm just looking at it from another view*-is worth more than two thousand dollars. So if he is getting only one... Prabhupāda: But your management is not worth five thousand dollars? Atreya Ṛṣi: Mine is worth nothing. Prabhupāda: Then why you are giving free service? Anyone, all of my disciples, they are qualified. Their service is worth more than any thousands of... Yes. So why you are maintaining Karandhara? All of them, they are giving free service. But they are all worthy to take salary, two thousand, three thousand, five thousand... Atreya Ṛṣi: Karandhara is only, what he's getting is only enough for his maintenance. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Atreya Ṛṣi: We are being maintained. Prabhupāda: No, no. Maintenance... Here, everyone can earn money and maintain him, but here this expense should be sacrifice. The essential is service. Haṁsadūta: It's his service... Prabhupāda: Service, yes. Haṁsadūta: It was started for that reason. Prabhupāda: If we take payment, that is not service. That is business. That is business. Jayatīrtha: It is, no doubt, a fact that Karandhara is not giving his full, is giving his full life as service. That is a fact. It may be taken... Prabhupāda: Yes. Our organization is to give service. Haṁsadūta: And then another point in this connection is that when I was in Los Angeles last time, all the people that worked for Spiritual Sky, they were, they were starting to fall away because of Karandhara's karmic attitude... Jayatīrtha: That's... Prabhupāda: So this point you discuss. Jayatīrtha: (to Haṁsadūta:) That problem we'll discuss, and I'll discuss it with you. Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are also two reports we don't have here, and we should read those before... One is Karandhara's report, and one is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu's report, who have investigated this. Jagadīśa: He's told us to make his report. Atreya Ṛṣi: Hm? Well, yes, that we have not heard yet. So we should hear and read the... Prabhupāda: All have contact. (?) Atreya Ṛṣi: ...and then discuss this point. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your GBC. Jayatīrtha: All right. So that we'll discuss. The other thing we'll discuss is ISKCON Food Relief. And we'll also discuss the complaints about books in India. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main... Jayatīrtha: So these things we can discuss. Prabhupāda: ...how these complaints can be stopped. Atreya Ṛṣi: The pledge. Should I read the pledge? I have written it. Haṁsadūta: What about the situation in Germany? Jayatīrtha: All right, situation in Germany we'll also discuss. Atreya Ṛṣi: Put the pledge on the agenda, Prabhu. Jayatīrtha: You want to read that pledge? Atreya Ṛṣi: You want me to read it, Prabhu? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Jayatīrtha: I think so. Prabhupāda: Everyone may hear. Atreya Ṛṣi: I... The same pledge, that the Indian gentleman has written, where it says, "Prabhupāda, I, Mr. So and So, karmī name, initiated name in parenthesis, date of birth, at present residing at, of certain nationality, do hereby solemnly affirm, declare and state as under as follows: I state I have been elected or nominated a member of Governing Body Commission, under the recommendation of my Guru Mahārāja, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder and ācārya of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement..." Rūpānuga: Supreme Authority. Atreya Ṛṣi: Shall I... Satsvarūpa: Yes, Prabhupāda wanted it... Rūpānuga: Ācārya and supreme authority. Atreya Ṛṣi: It's down... There as well? Jayatīrtha: There as well. Rūpānuga: Everywhere. Everywhere. *Atreya Ṛṣi: "Ācārya and..., of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement under the banner of International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. I state that I have imposed all my faith, integrity and honesty in my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja with the result he is the sole responsible person and supreme authority of my present position and status which I have gained and I am holding in the organization of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. I, the said Mr. So and So, both names, do hereby swear in the name of Kṛṣṇa that I will bear true faith and alliance to the constitution, by*-laws, rules, regulations and directions which," and this has been added, "which have been given, including four regulative principles..." Madhudviṣa: They should be stated too. Prabhupāda: Hm? Madhudviṣa: The four regulative principles should be stated. Prabhupāda: No, that may not be. We know, everyone. Madhudviṣa: We know it, but does someone else know it? Prabhupāda: Is it necessary to mention? Rūpānuga: It's a legal document also. Bhagavān: Yeah, it should be mentioned. Prabhupāda: Mentioned? Mention. Rūpānuga: If it was in parentheses, it would be better for a legal document. Jayatīrtha: That's not a legal document. Rūpānuga: It's a legal document. This is a legal document. Atreya Ṛṣi: "And chanting sixteen rounds very seriously." Madhudviṣa: Daily. Atreya Ṛṣi: "Daily." Madhudviṣa: At least. Brahmānanda: And free from the offenses. Haṁsadūta: We have to take some... Jayatīrtha: Who's chanting free from the offenses? Prabhupāda: No, no, don't... Atreya Ṛṣi: "Very seriously" is all I can say. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, do that. Atreya Ṛṣi: I cannot say "free of offenses." Because... Prabhupāda: "Seriously" means without offense. Atreya Ṛṣi: ...I am degraded. "Very seriously, or may be given to me from time to time directly, these directions, by my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja, or through his books, or..." In other words, direction given, instruction given, directly by him or through his... Prabhupāda: Better directly. Atreya Ṛṣi: No "His books"? Prabhupāda: No. Atreya Ṛṣi: Not necessary. Prabhupāda: Because I may give direction according to the time. Atreya Ṛṣi: "Or" means both. Prabhupāda: Hm? Atreya Ṛṣi: "Or" can mean... All right. "Or through his commissioners..."(?) *Prabhupāda: Direct, direct instruction is important. Just like Kṛṣṇa. In the books He has given many instructions, but then He says, sarva*-dharmān parityaja. If one says that "You gave me instruction before like this. How can I give up this?" so that is not important. The direct instruction is important. Atreya Ṛṣi: "To me from time to time directly by my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja, or through his commissioner..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: "Or through his authorized person or persons, and I shall obey faithfully all such instructions and directions which shall be, which shall be binding on me, and that I will uphold the sovereignty and integrity of my Guru Mahārāja, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, and the managing body commission and, or, any other body appointed by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda working under the said International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. And I shall faithfully discharge the duty upon which I am about to enter or I have already appointed to that effect." Now this is an addition. "I further pledge that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is the only source of authority, represented by his instructions and books, and I shall follow his instructions, I shall follow the instructions of the books..." Madhudviṣa: Only these books. Atreya Ṛṣi: "Only these books" Rather than "I will not follow any other book." Prabhupāda: No, why you'll put? (laughs) This is...? Atreya Ṛṣi: It's not...? Prabhupāda: This is required? Rūpānuga: You mean the part about the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Rūpānuga: You mean the part about the books? Haṁsadūta: It's already said that you're his direct instructions. Atreya Ṛṣi: This is to protect, like, if somebody chanting sixteen rounds... Haṁsadūta: It's redundant. *Madhudviṣa: Well, I thought if someone was chanting sixteen rounds and following the principles and reading someone else's books, like Siddha*-svarūpa's people... Haṁsadūta: Yeah, but we've just already read one portion where it says that we will follow direct instructions of Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That's it. Haṁsadūta: So again he's repeating it. Prabhupāda: Instruction, follow that. Atreya Ṛṣi: So then it's not necessary about this "only" sort part of...(?) Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: What if there is no direct instruction? Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't think that part is anymore important. Atreya Ṛṣi: "I further state that I am holding monies and movable and immovable..." Prabhupāda: No, why he's...? He's not holding money, GBC. Atreya Ṛṣi: So this I'll take out. Prabhupāda: No, GBC, practically does not hold any money. Atreya Ṛṣi: No. Prabhupāda: Then why you...? Haṁsadūta: You can say, "Any monies or properties under my direction..." Jayatīrtha: That's what it should say. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Haṁsadūta: Under, under his direction. Any monies or properties under his direction. Atreya Ṛṣi: That would be a separate oath. That would be a separate thing, Prabhupāda. Haṁsadūta: Maybe that should just be left out because if we're going to have some legal document like an umbrella, then that will take care of all those things. Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, that should be in the pledge, in the agenda. Prabhupāda: No, no, GBC... Does GBC members deal with money? Haṁsadūta: No, he does not personally. He doesn't have anything personal. Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean... Brahmānanda: But he puts his signature. Atreya Ṛṣi: No, no. As GBC, we do not deal with money. In other words, if you're dealing with money, it's the temple president. Prabhupāda: The GB... Atreya Ṛṣi: Not as... Prabhupāda: The GBC should see that it is being done properly. Why he should...? Haṁsadūta: But sometimes it... Prabhupāda: ...involve himself in the... Rūpānuga: Well, for example, in New York... Prabhupāda: ...internal management? *Rūpānuga: Well, in New York, for example, I just recently signed with Gopī*-jana-vallabha Prabhu the papers on the farm. I signed conjointly with him on the farm because the officers had to sign, and we just recently had a thing in New York, ISKCON, Los Angeles, New York. Prabhupāda: No, no, "sign" another thing. That I have signed, many. Rūpānuga: So that's all right. Prabhupāda: The one thing is that GBC is wandering. If the checks are to be signed, then where is the GBC? Rūpānuga: There's no account, no GBC account. Prabhupāda: The... The money matters should be dealt with the president, secretary and the treasurer, three men. Out of three, two should sign. And GBC's business is to see that things are going on, money matters. That's all. GBC is not supposed to deal directly. He has to inspect. That's all. Atreya Ṛṣi: So I can cross this... Prabhupāda: Just like... But the thing is, if the GBC and the president is the same man, that is not good. That is not good. The president should be separate. So the president, treasurer and secretary, they will deal directly, and GBC should inspect book, account, that it is done very nicely. That's all. You can question, "Why you have done this?" That's nice. Otherwise, in the..., it will be difficult to manage. Rūpānuga: Yes. We don't want to become entangled in that money. Prabhupāda: Ah! Rūpānuga: We don't want to become entangled in that money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: What controls? What controls in the matter of money then? Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: Who has control of the money? Prabhupāda: Control means if there is vigilant, I mean to say, examination, inspection, then there is control of money. Madhudviṣa: Well, let's say someone gives the temple president some money, and he puts in an account with his name and the treasurer's name, and they both conspire and take the money. Then there's no... Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do also. Atreya Ṛṣi: Anyway... Madhudviṣa: Yes, but... Prabhupāda: GBC can do also. Madhudviṣa: But isn't the GBC supposed to be more trusted than the temple president? Prabhupāda: Then everyone can do, who has got the... Bhagavān: The BBT trustees did it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhagavān: The BBT trustees also did it. They took unsanctioned loan from the BBT. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, what about in a case like myself. I'm a sannyāsī, and I have a traveling saṅkīrtana party. So can I handle that money? Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm a sannyāsī with a travelling preaching party. So I have no... Because I am personally seeing to the money, tbere's no debt on that party. Is that all right? Prabhupāda: That you decide amongst the GBC. (laughter) Best thing is that don't keep money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I have no money in my name. Prabhupāda: Anyway, you don't... You spend the necessary expenditure, and balance money, you give whatever you like. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, yeah. We're doing... I meant to say... Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda is... Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī is collecting and spending. Atreya Ṛṣi: There you have a function of, more or less of a president, as well as the GBC, in that party. Prabhupāda: Yes. Atreya Ṛṣi: Which is... In that case, it has to have GBC approval. Prabhupāda: So... Jayatīrtha: So we can adjourn for lunch and... Prabhupāda: Yes, you can... Till next we meet again. Jayatīrtha: So the rest of these things we can discuss in... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes. Jayatīrtha: ...separate meeting. Prabhupāda: Yes. You can... Rūpānuga: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (all offer obeisances) Prabhupāda: (aside:) Oh, he's not... He did not come. Paramahaṁsa: No, they went and told him to come and he said, "I'm just now coming." (end) Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mäyäpur Haṁsadūta: So you can begin. Girl: (Speaking in German) Haṁsadūta: She makes a suggestion that we should do two things: one, to ask questions about Māyāpur as a significant holy place, not only for the devotees, but for the people, karmīs, who have never even heard of Māyāpur... (German) Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: And she says the second aspect of her questioning will be the practical side of it, like feeding the people here, like feeding the people here, what we are actually doing, like building this house, feeding the people in the neighboring towns, or teaching them English or teaching them how to cultivate the land, like that. Prabhupāda: Our... You take answer one after another. Haṁsadūta: Yes... Prabhupāda: Not put all the questions. Haṁsadūta: So you can begin. *Prabhupāda: Our ideal is that we have got this body, and there are some bodily necessities. That is the prime necessities. So we do not neglect these necessities of the body. But our culture is spiritual culture. Generally, people, being disturbed by the bodily necessities, they do not inquire about the spiritual identity. Actually this is the distinction between human life and animal life. (Hindi) [break] Our real purpose of this mission is to educate people about his spiritual identity. All people, they are misguided by the idea-(aside:) Don't do*-that he is this body, everyone, all over the world, especially in the Western countries. Girl: Why? Prabhupāda: Because rascal fools, they have no knowledge, just like cats and dogs, animals. Do you admit this? Haṁsadūta: (German) Prabhupāda: Everybody's thinking that "I am this body." That is rascaldom. They have not even this primary knowledge of spiritual identity that he is not this body, although he has got very practical experience that a child is getting another body as a boy, the boy is getting another body as young man. Suppose I am... I know I had a body of a child. I still remember, when I was a child, six months old. I remember how I was lying down on the lap of my eldest sister. She was knitting, and I was seeing. Very vividly I remember. Now, where is that body? Tell me. Where is that body? Now sometimes I think that "I was jumping as a boy. And now I have to take this stick." So where is that, my jumping body? Tell me. Girl: The body is... Prabhupāda: That body is no longer existing. Girl: Yes. Prabhupāda: Is it not a fact? Girl: I must change my body. Prabhupāda: Change. So the body has changed. But I remember that I had such a body. Therefore I am different from the body. I wish to possess again that body, to jump, but I cannot. This is the condition of my life. By nature's law I am getting one body and I am changing to another body. This is going on. So as in this life I have got this experience, that I have changed my body, similarly, the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa, says that "When this body will be finished, you'll get another body," very simple thing. But these rascals do not understand. All these rascals, they do not understand. There is practical experience, and there is authoritative statement, and still, they do not know, and still, they are big, big professors, big, big learned scholars, doctor, scientist, philosophers. What is this? Girl: No knowledge. Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: No knowledge Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: No knowledge. Girl: No knowledge. Prabhupāda: That is... That is the... That means everyone is in ignorance, and they are passing on as doctors, philosophers, scientists. This is the condition of the present civilization. Fools and rascals are passing on as doctor of philosophy, doctor of knowledge. First of all, you have to judge this. Girl: But there are many gurus... Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: They think... What is...? Haṁsadūta: (German) Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says there are many gurus and many people go there because it has become popular. So what do they say? Prabhupāda: I do not bring in any guru. We are talking between ourselves. Don't bring any guru. Just talk as common men. So whether you agree to this point? Haṁsadūta: Understand? Girl: Yes. Prabhupāda: There is no question of guru. It is a question of common sense. Haṁsadūta: (German) Girl: (German) Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing, that "I am changing my body, and similarly, I'll change this body." This should be understood by my present circumstances of life, and it is confirmed by the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa. Knowledge by authority and knowledge by experience, both things are there. And still, the rascals do not understand. Knowledge is gathered by experience, and knowledge is gathered from the authority. Just like I ask my father, "What is this?" Father says, "This is bell." So this is knowledge. I get it from my father. And by experience, when I push it, it is ringing. So understand, "This is bell." So two sources of knowledge: by practical experience and by authority. Girl: I must believe what my father says. Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have to. I have to take knowledge from my mother, from my father. That is the beginning of knowledge. Intelligent boy asks father, "What is this?" And father explains. Mother gives the knowledge, "Here is your father." So it is from authority. Otherwise, how you can experience who is your father? How do you get? Can you experiment who is your father? Girl: Yes. I ask my mother. *Prabhupāda: That's it. That is authority. That is not experiment. That is authority. Therefore knowledge by authority and knowledge by experience... So I am changing my body. You experience "I was child, I was boy, I was young man. I was middle*-aged. Now I am old man." This is experience. And the authority says, "As you have changed this body, similarly, you change this body and get another body." This is authority. Then where is the lack of knowledge? So knowledge is already there in two ways: by experience and by authority. Girl: This life means that I must take a better body in this life. Prabhupāda: What is that? Haṁsadūta: What is the question? Girl: No, not a question. Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand that we... There are many sources of knowledge, but the summary is that knowledge gathered by experience and knowledge gathered by, through authority. So both knowledge is helping me about the change of body. So how can you deny it? And still, if you remain ignorant, then you are foolish. How you can say there is no life after death? I am giving you evidence by experience and by authority. Then mostly, perhaps you have got experience of the... In the, especially in the Western countries... Here, if you ask ordinary cultivator, he'll believe: "Yes, there is life." They they are philosopher. "Yes, in my past life I did something wrong. Therefore I am suffering. And if I do wrong, I'll suffer in my next life." You'll get this knowledge even from the cultivator. This is India. Girl: India has the knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who is born in India, he has got immediately this knowledge. He immediately knows there is God. That is the advantage of taking birth in India. What it will take hundreds of years to understand, they understand it by the birth. You have seen, so many thousands of people came. So the... Apart from this, the whole world, they do not believe that there is soul and after annihilation of this body, we shall get another body, another chapter of life. They do not believe it. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: Then, she says, why do the philosophers not study in India? Prabhupāda: Hm? Then again, the same question. Because they are rascals. Haṁsadūta: (German) Prabhupāda: Because they are rascals, they are speculating. They do not understand how knowledge is gathered. This is our charge. You refute it. Haṁsadūta: (German) Guest (2) (Indian man): Just one sentence, Prabhupāda. Another thing is they know they are taking body again and again. They are taking the body again and again after birth. Why they are committing again and again sins and which mode of nature...? *Prabhupāda: Because they do not know how to stop this process. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You can stop this. But these... Again rascals. They'll not take the method. Kṛṣṇa said that "If you simply try to understand Me," janma, "why I appear and why I come here and work," karma..., "they are divine." The divine nature of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance and activities, if one can understand, then immediately he becomes free from this process. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. But the rascals will not do that. They'll misunderstand Kṛṣṇa. They'll misdescribe Kṛṣṇa. They'll think, "Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man." Gandhi will say that "I don't think there was any person living as Kṛṣṇa." And he is mahātmā. These things are going on. Mahātmā is proving himself as the greatest rascal. This is your mahātmā, and what to speak of the durātmā. So you are being guided by these... Guest (2): A lot of people in... Before I came to your temple in Toronto, in our family nobody is eating any meat. When I went West, I got it some, this point, and I was misguided by the different philosophies. So lot of misguiding and misled... Prabhupāda: That is my rascaldom. Why I shall be misguided? I must know who is the right person. Guest (2): They are fallen from. A lot of people in India, they have all misguided and misleading, their own adjusted, their own... Prabhupāda: I have to gather knowledge from my superior. (Bengali) You came last night? Guest (2): Ah, no, last evening. Prabhupāda: Oh, last evening? What is your...? Guest (2): He told to come at nine o'clock. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. What do you want to say? Guest (2): I like, I like to join in the special (indistinct). Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are welcome. You stay here with the devotees and learn. Guest (2): I stayed in Madras for a month also. Prabhupāda: So you are staying here now? Guest (2): I'd like to take... Prabhupāda: Yes, stay. Make arrangement that he can stay. That's all. Haṁsadūta: You can stay. You can stay with us and... Prabhupāda: As other devotees are staying, you can stay. Guest (2): But, er... Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (2): Akṣayānanda (?) Swami told me to come to Madras. Prabhupāda: So go to Madras. Whatever you like. That's all. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says, "Therefore does it mean that the solution has to come from India?" *Prabhupāda: Yes. Solution has to come from Kṛṣṇa. The book is there, solution, Bhagavad*-gītā. If you take it and practice it, the solution of all problems is there. Girl: (German) *Prabhupāda: So you take any problem and find out the solution from Bhagavad*-gītā. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says in the beginning it appears a little difficult to give up everything, but day by day, it becomes... Prabhupāda: Where is the question of everything, giving up? It is to understand. First of all understand that what you are. Haṁsadūta: (to girl) Understand? Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that you are not this body. You are something beyond this body. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says we do not require as much as we like to believe we do. We do not require the things that we believe we require. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of this? Haṁsadūta: (German) Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: It means, it means apartment, furniture, money, family, and so many things. She says... She means that we don't require all these things. Prabhupāda: I don't say that. I have never said that. Haṁsadūta: (German) *Prabhupāda: But only for furniture and apartment, if you forget yourself and act in such a way, then next life you become a dog and lie on the street, then what is the use of your furniture? You are getting next life. First of all, you understand that, that "This is not the end of my life. I am eternal. I am changing my body." So it is described as dress. Now you may be dressed like a royal king. And next dress may be different. "May be" means it must be. And for the examples of the dresses*-so many living entities. So you must be cautious that "What kind of dress I am going to have next?" [break] Where is that science? Where is that school, college? If you remain only confident that "I'll go on with this dress perpetually," that is not the fact. You'll have to change your dress. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. But we have no knowledge that "What kind of dress I am going to have?" It is a fact. I have already changed dress. I had a child dress. I had a boy's dress. I had a young man dress. Now I have got old man's dress. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This also, you'll have to change." So why I am not inquiring "What kind of dress I am going to have?" and "How I am changing this dress?" So young man doesn't want to become old man. That is a fact. But if a young man says, "No, no, I don't want old man's dress," will it be accepted? Nature will say, "No, you must accept." Where is the remedy for this? Why these rascals do not understand that "I am fully under the control of nature's law, and I am declaring free. I am becoming philosopher"? He's fully under the control of nature's law. You have read Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmaṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. You are fully under the control of the laws of nature, and still you are thinking "I am independent. There is no superior controller." What is this nonsense? Hm? What is the answer? Haṁsadūta: (German) Prabhupāda: Is it not foolish? You appreciate that you are under the control of material nature, and still, you are thinking independent. What is this nonsense? Girl: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hm? I am in the prison house, and the prison superintendent is controlling me fully, and if I say, "I don't care for anyone," what is this nonsense? Even in ordinary life, if somebody says, "I don't care for government laws. I shall do whatever I like," is it very good sense? Similarly, you are fully under the control of material nature, and you are declaring independence. You should, rather, consider that "Why I have been put under the control of material nature? I don't want it. I don't want to be diseased. But why disease is forced upon me? I don't want to become old man. Why it is forced upon me? I don't want to die. Why death is forced upon me?" These should be the proper questions. But instead of questioning this, he's thinking, "I am independent." How much foolish he is. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: So, she says, so the solution for the world is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Therefore we are pushing on this movement, to make the rascals intelligent. That's all. The whole world is full of rascals, and we want to make them intelligent. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: Ja. Girl: (German) Prabhupāda: When we call them rascals, they become angry. And actually they are rascals. They do not know the problems of life. Haṁsadūta: So she... Her next question is that in the last few days, approximately five hundred devotees have assembled here from all over the world. She says that she knows that this is the birthplace of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So therefore they have come. She knows that it is a holy place. She wants to know that even before Lord Caitanya's time, was it also considered to be a holy place? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is perpetually holy place, but it is known since the birthday of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Haṁsadūta: (German) Prabhupāda: (aside:) Just wait one... [break] ...the cat's and dog's body. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand that, that life is beyond this body. But in the human form of life one can understand. He has got such consciousness. So by nature's law, by evolution, we come to the human form of body to understand this. And if we do not utilize this knowledge for understanding our real identity, then we remain cats and dogs, and we become again cats and dogs. By nature's law, I have been given this chance. If I do not utilize it properly, then again I become what I was before. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: One has to be sincere. One has to be sincere to understand this? Prabhupāda: It is not the question of sincerity; it is the question of ignorance. If, if the father, mother, teacher, government does not know that how the people should be raised, then they remain in ignorance. Just like a... If the child... Child is ignorant, but if he's not given the education... Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says now in this movement a new generation is being raised up, the children that we have in our schools and in our movement. Prabhupāda: There... Therefore we are educating children even. Girl: For the future *Prabhupāda: Yes, future generation. Because the so*-called educational institutions, they have produced only fools and rascals. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says you cannot change the society? We want to produce a new society? Prabhupāda: No new society. A new status of consciousness. We don't want to change anything. We want to change the consciousness because they are in ignorance. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says it is a great service or a help for the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says she has noticed here that if a new person comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can understand what he can actually do. For example, she was very impressed by the dance troupe last night, and on the night before, the devotees. She's realized that they are dancing. She did not realize before that one can do just about anything for Kṛṣṇa. And she says this place immediately gives that impression, that anyone, in any station, he can be engaged. Prabhupāda: Yes. You are very intelligent. Girl: Oh. (Laughs) Prabhupāda: We can engage anyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It does not depend on particular education, status of life. It doesn't matter. Ahaitukī. The exact Sanskrit word is ahaituky apratihatā. Ahaitukī means without any cause and without being checked. If anyone wants to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no impediment in the whole world which can check him. Haṁsadūta: (German) Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: Yes. She says if a person wants to give the best of himself, it is probably best to give that which he has learned throughout his life, to do it for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says, now, to your books, that, er... I can answer this question for her later, if she wants to know. How many books are already finished, and how much is more to come in the future? Prabhupāda: In fu... There is no limit. But I wish to write at least sixty books. Girl: (German) More? Prabhupāda: Yes. We have already finished... Haṁsadūta: Four cantos. Prabhupāda: Four cantos. And there are eight cantos more. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says that... She says she wants to know if you think it would be worthwhile for her to write a book, something similar to the one that was written in America. It was called "The Strange World of the Hare Krishna People." You've heard of it? Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm. Haṁsadūta: But she says serious, not in the way it was written by her, because she is a journalist, and this is her natural inclination, and she has been here now since the beginning, and she is noting everything. So it is her natural tendency. Whether you think it is worthwhile for her to write a little book for the public? Prabhupāda: It is... It will be great service, provided you write nicely the right things. Haṁsadūta: (German) Girl: To help you? *Prabhupāda: Yes. People are in ignorance, ninety*-nine percent. Girl: (German) Prabhupāda: Yes. Entire, whole world. They are going on. They are fighting on this bodily concept of life. So, apart from fighting... Of course, you cannot stop fighting. But at least a section of men must be in right knowledge. So what I say, that in the Western countries, they, even the very high, topmost educationists, they also do not believe that there is life after death, is it not? Am I right or not? Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She understands. Prabhupāda: So just see how much ignorance is prevailing. So if you can dissipate this ignorance, darkness... Girl: (German) Prabhupāda: Eh? Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: So that... She says, yes, if one thinks in this way, then life has no sense, that there's no sense to it, if one does not believe in a life beyond this life. It is senseless. Girl: (German) Then it's no life, no life after death. Haṁsadūta: She says therefore, therefore they feel anything can be done in this life because in next life there is nothing. *Prabhupāda: Nothing. That I talked with big professors. They say. They say like that. Here also, the so*-called Indian leaders, they are also thinking like that. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says she has heard that in the universities in America it is being taught about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In some of the universities Kṛṣṇa consciousness is being taught. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl: It's a beginning. Prabhupāda: Hm. Just like Temple University, they have got this *Nectar of Devotion*. And many universities, they are studying Kṛṣṇa book, *Bhāgavatam*. They are gradually accepting. At least the professors, teaching staff, they are accepting. They are studying as one side of views, not seriously. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: They speculate still. Prabhupāda: Yes. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says it appears that one has to become again as a child. Prabhupāda: Hm? Haṁsadūta: She means... She says that it appears to understand this teaching one has to become again as a child. Prabhupāda: Yes. If he does not forget what he has learned, then it will be difficult. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says... She asks whether it will come to a fight with the demons and the devotees like Arjuna, or is this question, in the future, she means, or is this question not important? Prabhupāda: The fight is already going on. You cannot stop fighting. Girl: (German) We must chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Hm? Girl: We must chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the simplest way. That is the simplest way. If one sincerely chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes enlightened. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: She says this is the main thing that Lord Caitanya has given the people in this age, a simple process to approach God. Prabhupāda: Yes, the highest perfection, to reach the highest perfection, that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's special gift. Girl: (German) Haṁsadūta: As a conclusive question, she asks what can we do to help the, (German), the whole movement to continue to expand? Prabhupāda: What help? Haṁsadūta: What, what she can do. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Your, these Western countrymen, they are intelligent. So intelligently enlighten them. By intelligent statements, make a peaceful revolution. Haṁsadūta: Right. Yeah. O.K.? Prabhupāda: As these boys are changing their habits and their ideas, so similarly, it can be done to the mass of people. Haṁsadūta: Is that all right? Girl: Ja. *Prabhupāda: Jaya. (aside:) Stop that also. [break] ...kṛpana bahu*-duḥkha-bhājaḥ, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. This gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. Otherwise, there is no need of gṛhastha life. But everything can be used to make the best use of a bad bargain. That is another thing. Actually, to become free from all responsibility and anxieties, if one remains a brahmacārī, that is very good. That is the recommendation of śāstra. But if you cannot... Because the material world is going on under sex impulse, by nature the sex impulse is there. He will agitate you. But if you can control by becoming a rigid brahmacārī, that is better. But it is difficult. Therefore this concession is given. But what is this concession? The concession is sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is an itching sensation. And after satisfying the itching sensation, there are so many responsibilities and trouble. But tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ. Those who are kṛpanāḥ, does not know how to utilize this life... So once I have taken to sex life and I am suffering so many after... Of course, now to stop the suffering, the have invented this contraceptive method. He knows there is suffering, but they, in order to avoid this suffering, they're taking this contraceptive method. And that is also suffering. That he does not know. Bhrun hatyā. Contraceptive method means killing the embryo. So that is also another sinful. He's taking so much responsibilities. So either you take contraceptive method or do not take contraceptive method... If you do not take, then the child is born. Then you have to take responsibility. Now they're killing the child, in this way becoming implicated. But if one is trained up to remain a rigid brahmacārī, there is no trouble. Therefore it is said, Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this (indistinct) In the world I have come to know mostly, I have never seen any, except the word is a true couple. They are married means sex life... Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (2): Except devotees, which after contacting, I haven't seen any (indistinct) Prabhupāda: Yes, the whole world is going on. Married life means legalized prostitution. That is their philosophy. So therefore they are, in the Western world, they do not like to marry. And this is also prostitution; that is also prostitution. So let us go on with our illegal prostitution. Why legal prostitution? This is the philosophy. And that is the Freud philosophy. Is it not? Haṁsadūta: Yeah. Prabhupāda: That's all. Guest (2): Even Indians, the same. I... Prabhupāda: The Indians, European, doesn't matter. The whole human society is like that. Haṁsadūta: His idea is why should we make this sex life so cumbersome by marriage? Prabhupāda: Yes. Avoid it. Haṁsadūta: It's a natural thing just to have sex. Guest (2): You are following your principles, the four principles... Prabhupāda: Avoid it. They are regularly advertising. I have seen in Dallas, "topless, bottomless," like that. Haṁsadūta: Everywhere. Prabhupāda: They do not know. What can be done. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti [Bg. 7.25]. They do not know that behind everything there is a supreme power. He'll punish. "Never mind, we shall be punished." You'll become dog. "Oh what is the wrong if I become a dog?" They say like that, "What is the wrong?" He thinks that "I'll get good facilities for sex. There will be no need of apartment. I'll save the rent. To become a dog and have sex life on the street, it is good facility." This is going on. Guest (2): I have some few questions which I have come here to ask. Permit me to ask, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is that question? Who can answer. Guest (2): I came in your temple first time in 1970 in Toronto. And, that time, I was just like other Indians, what I think, but I... (end) Meeting with GBC -- March 31, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, we recommend everyone become sannyāsa. What is the use of not becoming? (all laugh) We are giving up this world. We are preparing ourself for entering into the family of Kṛṣṇa. So why should we be very much anxious to maintain this family. So actually... Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says; *"I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a gṛhastha. I'm not a brahmacārī." These four, eight varṇāśrama*-dharma is unecessary for spiritually. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with Rāmānanda Rāya... You'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya... As soon as he suggested varṇāśrama-dharma, Rāmaṇanda Rāya, immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "It is not very important. If you know better than this, you go on." He did not give any, much stress on this varṇāśrama-dharma. But for regulated life, that is required. And ultimately, it is not required. So it is not recommended for ordinary persons. But this is also unnecessary. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is so sublime, that such things, which is the beginning of human life, that is also unnecessary. Iha bahya age kaha ara. Bahya means "this is superflous. You speak something higher than this." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So that is not very easy thing. First of all, we have to live very regulated life. Sannyāsa life is that regulated life. And then we can enter into the real life. That is ideal. So anything more? Satsvarūpa: Any more on those five points? [break] Devotee: ...Prabhupāda, beginning of new temples? Prabhupāda: Shut them. Moving temples. Satsvarūpa: He's questioning about the selling... There's one resolution that all the paintings... Brahmānanda: Let Prabhupāda explain his point. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: You want to expand this point of moving temples, rather than permanent temples? Prabhupāda: Yes. Moving temple means through bus, going from one place to another. That is better. From one temple, they go from village to village, town to town. That will be nice. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally did not establish any temple. He was moving. Is it not? So that's all right. We should be very much cautious to establish a new center. And if one establishes, he cannot close it. This should be the principle. Yes. Don't whimsically open a temple and close next day. No. Don't do that. If once established, it must be maintained, at any cost. Satsvarūpa: So the question that Mahendra asked was... [break] Prabhupāda: ...He was converting all his sons to be sannyāsīs. So he cursed him that: "You cannot stay anywhere more than three minutes." That's it. Brāhmaṇana: Prabhupāda, you also show that example. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: You're also showing that example. Prabhupāda: Yes. Although there is no restriction, still I do not stay more than three weeks even. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very hard to keep you in one place. Satsvarūpa: I'll read on. The next day's... Brahmānanda: There's a question over here... (end) Conversation with Devotees -- March 31, 1975, Mäyäpur *Acyutānanda: ...stuff His ears up when anyone would refer to Him as God. He wants to be known as a devotee. But we worship Him as God, in the same line as Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa. So how do we understand that? Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: Lord Caitanya doesn't want to be praised as God, but we worship Him as such. *Prabhupāda: That is a warning to the future fools and rascals that even God does not like to be addressed as God. But we address Him as God on the strength of śāstra. Kṛṣṇa*-varṇaṁ tviṣā kṛṣṇaṁ saṅgo-paṅgastra... [SB 11.5.32], yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ. Here is the incarnation of God. That is... Śāstra says. So out of His humbleness, He may say like that, but we should know by following the ācāryas, by śāstra. Sādhu-śāstra-guru vākya. Guru accepts Him God; śāstra accepts Him God; sādhu accepts Him God. Acyutānanda: The people say that just like Rāmakrishna, the disciples presented Him as God, but He never said He was God. Prabhupāda: But then where is the śāstra? Three things: the devotee or saintly person, śāstra and guru. He has no guru. He has no support from the śāstra. (laughs) So he's a fool, rascal number one, and he is God. He was a illiterate priest. He had no knowledge of śāstra. Besides that, in the śāstra it is said that "Those who are worshiping other demigods, their intelligence is lost." So he was worshiping Kālī. So he had no intelligence or spiritual realization, and he became God? So these things can be accepted by other fools and rascals. But those who follow śāstra, they will reject immediately. Acyutānanda: What if they say Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a devotee, He worshiped the Supreme Lord, kīrtana, but His disciples say He's God? Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Simply the disciples have said He's God. Prabhupāda: No. That... Why do you...? I have already said that He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by śāstra. He's supported by learned scholars, means, in the transcendental scholars. And supported by guru. We follow our guru. So guru says; śāstra says; saintly persons say. Therefore we accept. Acyutānanda: They interpret that verse in another way. Prabhupāda: That, the rascals do. They are... What is their value? When these rascals says that worshiping Kālī, one becomes God... Acyutānanda: No. No. Vaiṣṇavas. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Acyutānanda: The Rāmānuja and the Madhva, they say, kṛṣṇa*-varṇam means "black." Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣa kṛṣṇam: [SB 11.5.32] "But He is effulgent." Prabhupāda: Hm? No. We should follow our ācāryas. Why... Acyutānanda: No, but how to convince them that? They will never accept Cai... Prabhupāda: No. "You are also ācārya, but we have got our own ācārya. Why should I follow you?" Acyutānanda: But how to convince them? *Prabhupāda: Convince means they will not be convinced. Kṛṣṇa*-varṇam, kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati. One who is describing Kṛṣṇa, that is kṛṣṇa-varṇa. And kṛṣṇa-varṇa does not mean black. And again it is confirmed, tviṣā akṛṣṇam. So how can they say, "black"? By complexion, He is akṛṣṇa. So how they can interpret that He's black? *Acyutānanda: That it says... They interpret kṛṣṇa*-varṇam... *Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Kṛṣṇa*-varṇam means kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati iti kṛṣṇa-varṇam. If it is kṛṣṇa-varṇa, then how it is again confirmed, tviṣā akṛṣṇa? Acyutānanda: That is His effulgence. *Prabhupāda: That is his interpretation. Tviṣā, tviṣā akṛṣṇam. And in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam it is said, idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ, śuklo raktas tathā pitaḥ idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ. So God has other colors also. White and red and yellow. So here is yellow. Tviṣā akṛṣṇa. So we have to follow Jīva Gosvāmī. What these rascals, we have to follow? We don't follow. If you have got a interpretation, we have got better interpretation. Why shall I accept you? My mother says, "Here is your father." I shall accept that, or somebody says, "Here is your father" Whom shall I accept? Mother's version. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. We should accept the paramparā ācāryas, not whimsically anyone's interpretation you have to accept. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, it's very clear that if one does not accept Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then actually he cannot worship Kṛṣṇa properly. Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now just to carry on with Acyutānanda Mahārāja's point, it would seem then that the Rāmānujis and the Madhvites, they don't accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So how can they possibly... Prabhupāda: Therefore they cannot understand the higher rasas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. *Prabhupāda: Unnata*-ujjvala-rasam, they cannot understand. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they can understand śānta*-rasa. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dāsya*-rasa. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not sākhya. *Prabhupāda: Not more than that. They cannot meditate. There is no paternal rasa or madhurya*-rasa in their community. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the Vallabhites, they also... Actually they don't accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They say Vallabhācārya is their Mahāprabhu. And they worship in... Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I know that. So actually... Prabhupāda: He was simply proud of his education. He had no realization. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You explained that... *Acyutānanda: Do they worship in vātsalya*-rasa or just show? Prabhupāda: Show, formality. Acyutānanda: It's not genuine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not genuine. Prabhupāda: Some of them say that "Kṛṣṇa, becoming, before becoming polluted." They say like that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they do. Prabhupāda: That means childhood age, there is no pollution, and youthhood age, Kṛṣṇa's, it was polluted by the gopīs. This is their version. Kṛṣṇa becomes polluted. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they say like that. Prabhupāda: Do they say like that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I have spoken to them, in Hyderabad, that Bāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa. And another thing they say is that Rādhārāṇī's name is not mentioned in Bhāgavata. So this whole emphasis on Rādhā is not correct. Acyutānanda: Is not correct. *Prabhupāda: That means they cannot understand rādhā*-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛti. They cannot understand. And therefore in their community you won't find any high-class devotee. Simply official sentiment. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I... Is Vallabhācārya...? So he cannot be considered in proper line. Prabhupāda: Because Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's in the line with... Prabhupāda: He accepted him as learned scholar, but He did not accept him as very highly realized soul. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you explained that before. His guru, Vallabhācārya's guru, is... He's in Mādhavendra Purī's line? Prabhupāda: Hm? No. Acyutānanda: Viṣṇu Svāmī... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. I'm just trying to clear these points up because, I remember when I was preaching in South India, this discussion came up, that... Just like Mādhavendra Purī, he found the Deity of Gopāla, and you've explained... Prabhupāda: That is our Gauḍīya. Mādhavendra Purī is Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You explained how he was worshiping the Deity. Now, that Deity of Gopāla... Acyutānanda: Śrīnāthjī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīnāthjī. So that Deity was eventually handed over? Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: During Mohammedans, the Deity was moved. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Vallabhācārya... Acyutānanda: I heard that after the death of Vallabhācārya, Sanātana Gosvāmī told his son to worship the Gopāla Deity. He engaged his son, Vallabhācārya's son, as a pūjārī in Govardhana. So then it came into their hands. Prabhupāda: Hm? That may be, yes. Acyutānanda: Then, when the Deity was moved, it was moved to Nāthadvāra, and now they, now they are... Prabhupāda: When the Deity was given to them, they could do anything. Acyutānanda: Yes. 'Cause his son was all hopeless that "The ācārya is dead and my father is dead." He didn't know what to do. But they have written... They have pictures. They draw pictures of Śrīnāthjī on Govardhana, and Vallabhācārya is worshiping Him, all over. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is a big... That's the reason. It's a big mistake. I had a discussion with one man. So I was stating that Mādhavendra Purī found this Deity, Gopāla, but their teaching is that Vallabhācārya found the Deity. I said, "No, Mādhavendra Purī handed the Deity over later on for worship, but it was he who found the Deity and originated the worship on Govardhana, and all the villagers..." Prabhupāda: It has been confirmed in the court that this Deity belongs to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. There was big case amongst themselves, and the court gave judgement that "This Deity belongs to the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava." Acyutānanda: Oh. When was that court case? Prabhupāda: Say, about four, five years ago. No, about ten to fifteen years ago. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Recently. Acyutānanda: Who represented the Gauḍīya...? Prabhupāda: Nobody, but from the history it was found that it belonged to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. That... In Delhi one lawyer is there. He knows. He told me. (long pause) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our society, some devotees have an idea to spend money by employing professional men to advertise our society in so many different ways through advertising campaigns, etc. My idea is that our money should be spent on direct preaching. In other words, that can't... Prabhupāda: Then we are spending advertisement, for? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, sometimes I know... Just... I mean they hire professional firms to assist in public relations work. Prabhupāda: Not in... What is that? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As an example, last year at Ratha*-yātrā, two thousand dollars were spent to hire a professional group to assist them in making up the advertisements and other things, giving them guidance, general assistance... Prabhupāda: If you get really assistance, there is no harm. Just like sometimes we go to the court; we pay to the lawyer because we are not expert. In that sense, it can be spent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But cautiously. Prabhupāda: Yes. For nothing, because you have got money, no. Unless it is urgently or absolute necessary, you should not spend. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And there should be some... There should be some limitation. We should not spend tens of thousands of dollars... Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in such a way. Acyutānanda: They shouldn't listen to the decisions of these professional men if they say, "Don't do this and don't do that." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: The president should be restricted that "You cannot spend more than this amount without sanction of GBC." Acyutānanda: When we were in Bombay, there was an organization man, that one gentleman who was discussing with Bhagavān about the general organization of the Society, that you suggested we talk to him... Prabhupāda: So many, they came. They simply talk. Acyutānanda: There was one who... Prabhupāda: They do not help. Acyutānanda: No, when we were talking to him, he said that every temple should have its budget, and over that budget, the GBC should sanction. They have two accounts. Prabhupāda: (Hums) Hmm... Acyutānanda: Prabhupāda... [break] Mahāṁsa Mahārāja got the customs duty waiver for the buses from Germany... [break] What about the bullock carts? Prabhupāda: Bullock cart is very good for India. Acyutānanda: But that's for the small villages. The big towns, they're very far apart. Prabhupāda: Hm hm. Well, you are not supposed to go to the small villages. (end) Morning Walk -- April 1, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: The people are thropping. Thropping, thropping? What is called? Bhagavān: Shopping? Throbbing? Prabhupāda: Throbbing or throbbing? Brāhmaṇada: Groping? Prabhupāda: No. Throbbing? Bhagavān: Groving? What does that mean? *Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Cat*-patha(?). Just like when you take a fish from the water and put it in the land. Bhagavān: Oh, throbbing, throbbing. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is right word? Brahmānanda: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. All politicians, political party, nobody is in peace, simply throbbing*-making this party, making that party, combining this party, and the anti-government troops, and this, that, so many... There is no other business. Brahmānanda: No solution. *Prabhupāda: No solution. Big, big leaders. Nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍhāḥ. "All these rascals, they do not know the background is 'I am.' Solution should come from Me," Kṛṣṇa says. Tribhir guṇa*-māyāir bhāvair mohita. But they'll not take this solution. They'll make simply, start a plan. [break] ...less you come to this point, mām ebhyaḥ, there is no solution. Now, at least for me, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is no more theoretical. It is practical. I can solve all problems. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people don't want to accept any austerity, though. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people won't accept any austerity. Prabhupāda: Then you must suffer from the disease. If you have got disease, you must undergo the... What is this austerity? Where is the austerity? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If they don't accept the medicine, then they can't be cured. Prabhupāda: Then they must suffer. A man, diseased, and he doesn't want to take medicine, then where is the...? He must suffer. Where is the cure? Pañcadraviḍa: They say we're the ones who are diseased. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: They say we are the ones who are diseased. They say, every one of us, we are diseased, not them. Prabhupāda: Yes. The deaf man thinks all others deaf. (Laughter) That means they are not even human beings. Animals. They do not come to reason, that "Whether we are diseased, or you are diseased. Sit down. Talk." That also, they are not ready. Then? What we can do with animals? *Pañcadraviḍa: They say we are old*-fashioned. They don't want to bother with us anymore. Prabhupāda: Hm? Then why do you bother with the problems? Why do you bother with the problems of society? You bother, but you cannot make a solution. All over the world, the newspaper is full, simply throbbing. Viṣṇujana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can you make them reasonable? If they're unreasonable, is there some way to make them reasonable? Prabhupāda: They are reasonable. Man, every human being, is reasonable. It is said, "Man is rational animal." So when the rationality is not there, that means they are still animal. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, what can be done with animals? Prabhupāda: It is... It is very simple truth. Just I am this body. I am seeking happiness. So why I am seeking happiness? The... If you simply discuss on this point, then you'll find that a man is reasonable. Why I am seeking after happiness? What is the answer? That's a fact. Everyone is seeking happiness. Why we are seeking happiness? What is the answer? Pañcadraviḍa: Because everybody's miserable, and they don't like it. Prabhupāda: That is a opposite way, explanation. Kīrtanānanda: 'Cause by nature I am happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. By nature I am happy. And who is happy, this body or the soul? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, the soul. *Prabhupāda: Who wants happiness? I want protect this body*-why? Because I am within this body. And if I go away from this body, who seeks for the happiness of this body? This common reason, they have no sense. Why I am seeking happiness? I am covering this body because the body may not be affected by cold. Then why I am seeking happiness of the body from cold and heat? Because I am within the... If I go away from the within the body, then there is no more seeking after happiness. Either you throw it on the street or it is in extreme cold or extreme heat, it doesn't matter. Then who is seeking happiness? That they do not know. For whom you are so busy for happiness? That they do not know. Just like cats and dogs. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they think they have no time to chant the holy name. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their philosophy is that to be, in order to be happy, they have to work all day long. Prabhupāda: Hm. That is your philosophy. You are rascals, but we are not working. Why don't you see our example? We are simply living happily. Satsvarūpa: But they say we're living off their work. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They work and we beg money from them, they say. Prabhupāda: We don't beg money from them. We take their money in the way that they'll use it for bad purposes, so we take it for Kṛṣṇa. They'll drink. They'll smoke. They'll have illicit sex and go to hell. Therefore, out of our humbleness, we have become beggar, just like a father asking the child... He has taken one hundred rupees note and spoiling. "My dear child, you are so nice. Why you are taking this? Give this. Take a lozenges." Like that. We are not for their money. That's a wrong theory. Pañcadraviḍa: But they say this drinking and smoking, it's all right, but you are parasites because you're taking our money. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: They say that smo... Prabhupāda: I'm not after... I kick on your face. I don't want your money. (laughter.) You are taking books from us, and you are paying. Therefore I have adopted this means. They may not say... I knew that they would say in the Western countries. Therefore I thought that without books it is not possible. What is this? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Come this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayapatāka is pointing to... Prabhupāda: All of a... Śrutakīrti: We can cross right... No? No. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatāka Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: There is no house? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You want Prabhupāda to come...? Prabhupāda: So why he's claiming his money? Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: He says, "Because I work for it." Prabhupāda: That's all right. But money, what is the standard of money? First of all, just discuss this. What is the standard of money throughout the whole world? Devotee (1): Work, labor, labor. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (1): Labor. Pañcadraviḍa: Purchases... Prabhupāda: Gold. So have you created gold? How is your money? The gold is already there. You have stolen. You are thief. You are not laborer, but you are rascal, thief. You'll be punished for this policy. Is gold your property? Devotee (1): But they say that if the whole world follows our example, then the society will be finished. *Prabhupāda: Nobody follows. We do not follow... There are so many... Why they are struggle? Why they struggle? Why do you fight? Because you are all thieves*-you want to steal God's gold-therefore you fight. Why do you fight? Why you declare war from one nation to another? Because you are all thieves and you want to steal God's gold. Therefore there is fight. Why do you claim, "This is America, my land"? Is it your land? Have your forefathers created this? Why you falsely claim like that? What is the answer? You have stolen from another party, Red Indians, and you are now claiming, "We are the proprietor." You are thieves. You are not even gentlemen. What do you think? Pañcadraviḍa: But they say... They say, "God is up in heaven. What does He need with gold?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: They say, "God is up in heaven. What does He need with gold?" Prabhupāda: "God is up in heaven"? What is that? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say God... Prabhupāda: Because the master is in heaven, or in some other place, therefore we shall steal? Tripurāri: They say, "God gave us the land to do what we want with." Prabhupāda: No. God did not give you the land. How do you think it is given to you? Tripurāri: They say, "God put us here..." Prabhupāda: God... God has given to every living entity. You can say like that. Just like father. Father gives to all sons, not that a particular son. Why do you claim? Why do you slaughter the cows? They have got right. So, so many faults there are. But they are not reasonable. That is the... Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They quote a verse from the Bible where it says that God has given man control over everything on this earth. *Prabhupāda: That control does not mean "The government is in control, therefore government should kill only." These... All rascals, simply rascals. Control, that's all right. You are grown*-up boys, human beings, so you should control. You should maintain them, and take service from them, not that you shall kill them. They interpret in that "Because under my control, therefore I shall kill"? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish they are. Jayatīrtha: The children are under the control of the parents, but the parents don't kill the children. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: They protect. Santoṣa: Control means protect. [break] *Prabhupāda: Suffering for all these sinful activities, always throbbing. See the newspaper. The newspaper is full of news*-one side, everyone is restless condition, throbbing, and another news, sense gratification. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it necessary for people to leave the cities and live in our varṇāśrama situations in order to become happy? *Prabhupāda: You haven't got to leave anything, provided you understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not after leaving or accepting. We are not after this. We are after understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What... What shall I leave? Suppose if I leave city*-I come here-still it is God's property. So what, what I leave? What I have got that I have to leave? Everything God's property. If you have something, then you can leave. But if you have nothing, what you will leave? It is another bogus. This is Māyāvādī theory. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Why jagan mithyā? If Brahman is satya, jagan is also satya. [break] ...means they are trying to possess, and the jñānīs are trying to leave-both of them rascals. Where is the question of possessing? Stealing. You... I want to possess, but that thing does not belong to me. Therefore it is stealing. And the jñānīs are trying to give up living. That is also not truth. But you haven't got anything, so what you are going to leave? So both are in ignorance, the karmīs and jñānīs, the yogis. Simply Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, they are in knowledge. Before your birth the land was there, the world was there. Everything is there. Now you came. Then how do you possess? Before your birth, things were there. How do you possess unless you steal and cheat? Hm? What is the answer? Pañcadraviḍa: I have inherited it. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: They say that man inherits the property of his father, which is God. Prabhupāda: That means you must obey your father. Otherwise you'll be kicked. (Laughter) You are so rascal that you don't feel obliged to your father who has given you so much things, so many things. You are such a rascal. Therefore you must be punished. Satsvarūpa: So if all the land belongs to God, then who decides who will distribute it to the people? Prabhupāda: You don't distribute. You live only, till the ground and take your food. Where is the question of distribution? Whatever you can till, you take so much land. God has enough land. Why do you possess more? One acre of land is sufficient for producing your food. Why do you take more? Satsvarūpa: Nobody should own excessive. *Prabhupāda: No. Therefore God's representative, king, is wanted. He'll divide. "All right, you take this." That is king. King means God's representative. Naradeva. Therefore, according to Vedic scripture, the king is so respected, guru is so respected, father is so respected*-because they give guidance. "You live, Kṛṣṇa conscious, like this." That is their duty. The king is simply planning how to collect taxes, this tax, land tax, sale tax, income tax, this tax, this... So his only business is to plunder: "Let him work, and I shall take it away." And everyone is doing. That is struggle for existence. I want to cheat you. You want to cheat me. That's all. And therefore they are throbbing. There is no solution. Pañcadraviḍa: Who will decide who will be king? *Prabhupāda: Therefore the king is evaṁ paramparā system. The king, the original king is the sun*-god. Then his son, Manu, his son, Ikṣvāku. Everything is described. Why don't you see there? Pañcadraviḍa: But who would be the king today? If we establish such a system, who would become the king? Prabhupāda: Nobody would be king. Everyone is king and fight. That's all. Nobody is king. Everyone is a dog. And they are simply barking. Devotee (1): In Africa, recently, one of the leaders has taken all the mūrtis and crucifixes from the churches and put his own statue. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee (1): He has banned all religions. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee (1): He put his own statue there, that the people should worship him. He's a disciple of Mao. Prabhupāda: And because there is no king, therefore he is flourishing. Devotee (1): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Had there been any real king, he would have been killed immediately. Because there is no king, therefore in South India, they are insulting the statue of Lord Rāmacandra, because there is no king. Everyone is king. Diplomacy... Democracy. What is this nonsense, democracy? All over the world the royalty is hereditary, never elected. [break] ...and it was hereditary, even Russia. That is the system. Evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. And evaṁ paramparā-prāptam-who? Rājarṣayoḥ. They are king, but just like saintly persons. That is king, not a loafer class is elevated to the royal post. Rājarṣayoḥ. Although they're holding the post of a king for administration, they're just like ṛṣi. That is king. Pañcadraviḍa: In France they went to the Queen a long time ago, and they said, "The people don't have bread." So she said, "Let them eat cake." And they did not like this. So... *Prabhupāda: These are all stories. Don't indulge in stories. Just try to find out the real fact from śāstra. Therefore śāstra... Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ [Bg. 16.23]. Leaving aside the śāstra, if one talks nonsense... (end) Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: Is it possible for a man or for anyone that he can, he should be according to the life of his different friends or servants or sons? That is theology. Next time, when I go to your country, why not hold a meeting of all the theologicians to discuss publicly what should be the nature of God? What do they describe, the nature of God? Prajāpati: They describe the nature of God simply in terms of how religious men have understood themselves. They talk about, "God is simply men understanding men." Prabhupāda: That means nobody has approached real God. Prajāpati: No. Acyutānanda: No one. Prabhupāda: That is speculation. If you want to study me, so you can do so either by approaching me or through one of my confidential servant. How one can understand me from outside by speculating? Why do they come to see me? Let them remain far away and speculate. But that is not possible in ordinary common sense also. So how they speculate about God? If you cannot understand even a common man, maybe very big in the society, you cannot understand a common man by hearsay, by speculation... Prajāpati: Practically all the theologians are aligned with one denomination or another, and they're like company men to the big churches, and they're afraid of admitting they do not know about God because they're afraid somebody will leave their camp and come to ours. We say we know about God. Prabhupāda: Yes. We say frankly that we know God, His father's name, His address, everything. Let anyone come and challenge. He cannot say that "No, this is not God," because he has not approached God. He does not know what is God. How he can challenge us that "This is not God"? Suppose we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as God, so how anyone can challenge? Because he has not approached God. He is simply speculating. Prajāpati: And not even on his own. He's simply approaching other speculators. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prajāpati: One speculator simply approaches other speculators. Prabhupāda: So how they can say, "This is not God"? Is it possible to say? We say, "Here is Kṛṣṇa, God." Why not discuss this point for our preaching work. Call all the sannyāsīs. Śrutakīrti: Call the sannyāsīs? Prabhupāda: Hm. [break] Theologician. You know? Śrutakīrti: He's theologian? Prabhupāda: You know? Acyutānanda: No, I didn't know. Prabhupāda: He's theologician. Now you discuss with him whether by theological arguments one can approach or understand what is God. Jayapatāka: Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Sit down straight. Otherwise feel sleepy. Jayapatāka: Myself and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa were just going to Krishnanagara to see that attorney for that... Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. Śrutakīrti: Others will be coming. Jayapatāka: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and... Acyutānanda: Theology or Theosophy? Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Theosophy? Prabhupāda: No, theology. Śrutakīrti: Theology. Theologian. Prabhupāda: Theosophy and theology is practically the same. Prajāpati: No, theosophy is nonsense Buddhist... *Prabhupāda: But according to academic order, logic is the preliminary study of philosophy. Our, our professor, Dr. Watt (?), he defined like that. In 1917...-(Aside:) Come on.*-There was the governor in Bengal, Lord Ronaldsey (?), Marquis of Zetland. He was a Scottish man. And our college was Scottish Churches College-(aside:) Get the light. So... don't lean. You'll feel sleep. Just like sit my Guru Mahārāja. Show the picture. Be... Become my Guru Mahārāja. Yes. That sitting is the yogāsana. I am gone to hell. (laughter) You are young men. You learn from my Guru Mahārāja. Pañcadraviḍa: No leaning. Prabhupāda: Hm? Pañcadraviḍa: No leaning. Prabhupāda: No. You'll never see any picture, he was leaning. So that Lord Ronaldsey (?) was very good scholar. So we were... When he was invited, he was taken to all the classes. So I was, at that time, in the second year. So I took permission to sit down in the first benches. The... Our college was very big. So in each class there were 150 students. [break] Where is... Brahmānanda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is taking a bath. Prabhupāda: So they were giving role number according to admission. So I did not know that. So my role number was 105. So I thought it very incon... "I have to sit down after one hundred students?" So I took one certificate from Dr. Karttika Chandra Bose, who became, later on, my boss. Because he was our father's friend, so "Give me one certificate in this way, that I am hard of hearing. I must be given first row seat." So he gave immediately certificate. What is that? Śrutakīrti: Some juice. Jagajīvana: Some juice and some watermelon, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. Give it. Acyutānanda: What does theology say? Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: What does theology mean. Prabhupāda: Just explain. Prajāpati: This is the study of faithful men understanding themselves through the medium of the church. Prabhupāda: Now you discuss whether this point is very nice. Acyutānanda: So what is the authority? Prajāpati: The authority is the Christian tradition. Acyutānanda: The Bible. Prabhupāda: Yes. When he says church, that means authority, Bible. Acyutānanda: The Bible. Prajāpati: No, part. The Bible is part. Acyutānanda: Only part, one part. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: He says the Bible is not... The Bible is not the complete authority? Prajāpati: No, it's the tradition of the church through the great founding fathers, the great theologians up until the present day. Viṣṇujana: Sādhu, śāstra, guru. Prabhupāda: No... Vāk... Prajāpati: Yes, unfortunately no guru. Prabhupāda: Church... Church is following Bible. Prajāpati: Yes. Prabhupāda: So ultimately Bible becomes authority. Prajāpati: In certain segments of Christianity, not all. Acyutānanda: So what is their conclusion? Pañcadraviḍa: Excuse me one minute before we go on. What is this in relation to, this discussion? I just walked in. Prabhupāda: This... The subject matter is whether by theological arguments one can understand God. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, according to dictionary, theology, theo, the Latin word theo, it means, that means God. Theo means God. And as far as I know, theology means the science or the study of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: So by definition... Prajāpati: Not precisely. The word theology comes from the word logos. Theologos. And logos, in this sense, means the word of God. Yes. Prabhupāda: Now, the words of God, that means one must know what is God. Otherwise how he can know this is the word of God? What is the answer by the theologian? Prajāpati: The word of God is that a man is known by his works, his fruits. If he is a godly man... Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you know what is God, how you can accept this is the word of God? Just like you say, "Prabhupāda says." You take it, accept it: "Oh, Prabhupāda said." But you know what is Prabhupāda. Prajāpati: So in... Prabhupāda: It is not a fiction. Prajāpati: In theological circles, yes, they are accepting great authorities like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, as well as the śāstra, the Bible itself. Acyutānanda: But Martin Luther and St. Augustine are opposed. Prajāpati: Yes, there're many opposed in many different ways. Acyutānanda: Then the authority is... Prajāpati: So that's why the goal is not so much a... Acyutānanda: Who invented theology? Prajāpati: Saint Paul. Acyutānanda: The first Saint Paul? Prajāpati: First Saint Paul. Acyutānanda: And he was before Martin Luther. Prajāpati: Yes, he's before Martin Luther. Pañcadraviḍa: In the... Also this word logos, in the Bible it says, "In the beginning there was the word." That's logos, right? In the beginning there was the word. So what word was that? Prajāpati: In the beginning...? Pañcadraviḍa: When it says, "In the beginning, there was the word." Prajāpati: According to that same verse, that word was God. Acyutānanda: And what was that? *Prabhupāda: But they... They must explain. Just like in Vedic literature the same idea is there. (aside:) Don't lean. I am begging excuse. I am old man. But you should sit down like that Guru Mahārāja. So we know what was the word, oṁkāra. Praṇavaḥ sarva*-vedeṣu. [break] So oṁkāra is the word. So what is the Christian word? *Prajāpati: Again there's no absolute authority. In the vast Christian tradition we have Origen saying one thing and Saint Francis saying another. Widespread... That's why it is not a science that we can go to like we can to Śrīla Prabhupāda for an exact answer, Bhagavad*-gītā, exact absolute authority. In the Christian tradition it is simply defined as faithful men understanding themselves in the light of the scripture, in the light of the tradition. Prabhupāda: No, that is because you are our student. Suppose our preachers meet the theologicians. How to prove that theology is not the means? Theology... Generally, you say it is speculation. So our point is that nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena. The ātmā, Kṛṣṇa, cannot be understood or approached, pravacanena, simply by logical arguments. Prajāpati: The theologian would agree, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's a question of what's called apologetics. Theology has a specific function for the Christian church, to bring people within the fold. Simply to convince them through any means, logical or whatever, to them to come within the church community, and then once they are within that group, then they can participate in what's called the Christian life. You have taking sacraments, engage in Christian fellowship, taking communion, so many things. Acyutānanda: But their authorities disagree. Prajāpati: Yes. That is... They will agree with that. Acyutānanda: But our disciplic succession from thousands of years, there's no big disagreement. Pañcadraviḍa: I met one... I was traveling about three months ago in India. I met one Christian on the train. So we began to discuss the śāstra. So I mentioned some of the arguments in reference to the Bible, that Christ was speaking... Prabhupāda: (aside:) No, no. Where that covering? Where is it? Pañcadraviḍa: I said that Christ was speaking basically to an uneducated public, the fishermen, etc... So then this man, he stopped me. He said, "That's all right. But," he said, "You're..." Prabhupāda: Who? Who? Who said? *Pañcadraviḍa: I was discussing with one Christian in India. So I attacked... Politely I attacked his scriptural reference, the Bible. I was saying that it was not meant that an educated community. So then he stopped me. He said, "That's all right. You can speak about fishermen. But," he said, "the prime exponent of Christianity was Paul. And Paul was previously Saul. He was not a fisherman. And he was traveling to a town on a particular... Damascus. And there he received direct revelation from God." And he said, "Then this one man, single*-handedly, he converted most of the known world to Christianity." Prabhupāda: That means he got direct revelation from God. Pañcadraviḍa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Pañcadraviḍa: So he said just to talk about the Bible as evidence is not enough. He said, "You're overlooking direct revelation," which is what we are also dealing with, that the man who lives according to the word of God, he receives the word of God directly. Prabhupāda: It is said there? Pañcadraviḍa: Hm? Prabhupāda: It is said there? Pañcadraviḍa: He said to that effect, yes. He said, "Your argument about a fisherman community is not completely valid." Prajāpati: There's always a differentiation we must make between a Christian, who we might meet and engage in argument, and the theologian himself. The theologian is a very oily character, very hard to pin down. The Christian, he may have specific beliefs, dogmatic, tenaciously holding to dogma, but the theologian, he- Acyutānanda: Well what does that...? What do they say? Prajāpati: The theologians? Acyutānanda: Yes. *Prajāpati: They are simply word*-jugglers. They are not held nearly so tight to... Acyutānanda: Well, then, what's some of the things they invent? Prajāpati: Well, one we were bringing up is that theology is a means that faithful men are coming to understand themselves, not that are approaching God. One approaches God within a community and within... Prabhupāda: That a faithful man understands God, that we say. Then what is the basic principle of theology? Why this separate science has been established as "theology"? Logy means science. Prajāpati: Yes. From the Christian point of view, the science is there simply that man does not accept simply by sentiment or by faith, but he can have his mind convinced as well. Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: But that has to be there. So what is the self according to theology? *Prajāpati: Again, Christian... In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we can ask such a question. "What does the Bhagavad*-gītā or Kṛṣṇa consciousness say about the self or about Kṛṣṇa?" But in theology it's not so cut and dried. There's so many different authorities, each one saying a different thing. Acyutānanda: Well, that's why I said... Prajāpati: You must say, "So and so says..." *Pañcadraviḍa: Or they say, "At the time of judgement, a man must stand before the ever*-living God and he will be held, called, held accountable for his actions during this life." Prajāpati: That's only a very small group. Those who are fundamentalists, who take strict interpretation of the Bible, and they're a very small group. And even that group doesn't have very many thoughtful or theological men backing it. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, all Christians, they believe that there are, in one way or another, they're going to be held accountable to the word of God. Isn't that? Prajāpati: No. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, how they can have any...? How they can have any tenets or principles if they don't believe they're accountable to God? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Because they believe they can use Jesus like a doormat to clean their sinful activities of themselves. Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that why theology should be in reference with Bible? If it is a science, then why should it refer only to the Bible? Prajāpati: Yes. The biggest school of theology, Harvard School of Theology... The study of the Bible is there, but only on the side. Instead, they study Freud, Karl Marx, everybody else... Acyutānanda: Well, they should study *Gītā*. Prajāpati: Yes, that's our point. How to get them to realize that? That's a question. Acyutānanda: So we'll ask them, "We have a most scientific and detailed description of the self and God and the means to join to Him. That cannot be avoided in your study. And we claim the highest standard of renunciation, and worship and godly society." Prajāpati: And their answer... Acyutānanda: "You can't avoid us." Prajāpati: Their answer to such a challenge will be: "You please go across the street to the study of Hinduism." Acyutānanda: "No, you said theology. God is not a Christian God." Prajāpati: But they're not interested. They only want to hear the Christian point of view. And for them, "Christian" doesn't mean Bible; it means their own... *Acyutānanda: That's Prabhupāda's first thing*-what is God? Is it the Christian God? What is God? What is your definition of God? Is He a Christian God or pure? Prabhupāda: No, the... The... First of all, this should be established, whether God can be Christian God or Hindu God or Muslim God? Is God to be designated like that? God is one, so how there is one God? If Christian has got separate God, a Hindu has got separate god, Muslim has got separate God, then how God is one? Prajāpati: Their answer would be: "We cannot talk about God. We can simply talk about the Christian tradition of God, or the..." Prabhupāda: Now, again you come to the Christian God. Acyutānanda: Then your knowledge is limited. Prabhupāda: Then... Either Christian tradition... Then it becomes bound up by the Christian ideas. Prajāpati: And that is exactly the situation today. *Prabhupāda: But that is not God. Just like gold. Gold is everywhere gold. Because it is in Christian country, you cannot say, "It is Christian gold." And because it is in Muslim country, you cannot say, "It is Muslim gold." Gold is the world standard of money. The same gold, dispatched from America, can be accepted in India. Dispatched from India, it can be accepted in Palestine because it is gold. Everyone who knows what is gold, he'll accept it. So God should be like that. And therefore the name Kṛṣṇa, "all*-attractive"... When there is gold, either you be Christian, Muslim, Hindu-"Oh, here is a lump of gold. Can I possess it?" That is attraction. So as gold is all-attractive, similarly, God must be all-attractive. And that word is used as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. One who knows gold, he'll be attracted. Doesn't matter whether he's Hindu or Muslim, Christian, poor, rich man, black, white. It doesn't matter. Here is gold, and everyone... Just like in your country there was gold rush. Eh? In California? From all different parts of the world they came. So gold is gold for everyone. So now one should try to understand or check what is gold. That is required. Prajāpati: These men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are very, very puffed up. They think that even such discussions of who God is and what God is, that... They feel they're way past that, and that's for lower class men to discuss. Acyutānanda: Why do we give anything to them? (?) *Pañcadraviḍa: But when you came to France, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you spoke at the Theology Club. About four years ago you came for a conference. They arranged a big meeting at the Theology Society in France, a world*-wide society. And one thing I was... One thing I was considering. They must be interested because the Christians say that there is soul, and they say that there is God, so then wouldn't our question be: "What is the relationship of the soul to God?" They admit there is a soul. Every human being, they say, has a soul. Prabhupāda: No. That, that is also beginning of understanding. But first, preliminary understanding should be that God is one. There cannot be Christian God. There cannot be Hindu God. There cannot be Muslim God. That is not complete idea of God. That is imperfect. Just like in Vedic literature, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti: [SB 1.2.11] three phases of understanding of the Absolute. First, beginning, is Brahman, then, further advanced, Paramātmā, then, final advancement, Bhagavān. Similarly, the final realization of God is the Supreme Person. And then we should seek (see?) who is that person. That is real theology. Pañcadraviḍa: What if they say, "We agree there's one God, but we do not agree that His name is Kṛṣṇa" or "We do not agree..." Prabhupāda: Then you suggest what is His name. My next challenge will be... You suggest. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they... *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: In the Bible they give twelve names for God. *Prabhupāda: No, let me finish this. If you do not accept Kṛṣṇa is the name of God,... I have explained what is the idea of Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. The example is given: Just like gold. Gold is attractive to everyone*-to the educated, the uneducated, to the black, to the white, man, woman, everyone. One who knows God, er, one who knows gold-gold is attractive. Similarly, God is all-attractive. There cannot be that "It is black gold," "It is white gold," "It is Christian gold," "It is Hindu gold." No. Gold is gold. So we present Kṛṣṇa that "Here is God, all-attractive." Now you say, "No, He's not God." Then you present your God. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, I know just the... Prabhupāda: You cannot say, reject. They cannot reject Kṛṣṇa unless you present an alternative. *Pañcadraviḍa: Well, here's the argument. Part of the thing I remember in the Judeo tradition, Judeo*-Christian tradition, in the... Whenever we used to go to service and all that, they used to have in the prayer books... They would never write out the name of God because they say... Prabhupāda: Oh, that means you do not know. Pañcadraviḍa: No, they say God's name should never be spoken out loud. Prabhupāda: Why? Pañcadraviḍa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. If you know somebody, why should you say, "His name should not be explained"? Brahmānanda: They say that God's name is so pure and we are so impure that to utter His name is to make it impure. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Is blasphemy. Acyutānanda: No, I heard the explanation that a nonbeliever should not know it. Prabhupāda: That is all right. Acyutānanda: So they don't say it out loud. Prabhupāda: No, when we come to argument that... We are supposed to be all believers in God. We are not nonbelievers. We simply want to ascertain who is that God. We are not nonbelievers. Then some persons who believe in God come together so to ascertain who is God. So just like when we come to a meeting to elect a president, so they are not nonbelievers. They are not nonbelievers. As there are so many personalities, candidate for president, now who is the right person to become the president? That is wanted. To the nonbelievers, he has no access. About discussion in God he has no access. When we discuss about God, it is supposed they are all believers. So if you say... Just like we are holding meeting to ascertain... There are so many names of God. Now we ascertain who is real God. God means there should be no more above Him. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7]. That is God. Viṣṇujana: Christians have such a name. They call Him Yahweh. Acyutānanda: Yahweh. Viṣṇujana: Yahweh means "I am that I am. No one is beyond Me." Acyutānanda: Yahweh. Viṣṇujana: They will say Yahweh is God. Prabhupāda: No, Yahweh, what is...? That is the name? Viṣṇujana: Name. "I am that..." It means in English, "I am that I am." Prajāpati: Some people translate that as Jehovah. Viṣṇujana: Jehovah. Prajāpati: But it's the same word. In fact, everyone agrees they do not know what the real name is. Some say Yahweh; some say Jehovah. The Jewish tradition replaces completely and says Adonai, instead. Prabhupāda: That's all right. He may not say. But we have to take from the meaning. What is the meaning? Viṣṇujana: "No one is beyond Me." *Prabhupāda: That's all right. "No one is beyond Me." Then he comes to our conclusion, all*-attractive. This is... They come to our conclusion, all-attractive. Because if somebody is beyond Him, then he should be attractive. But if He's final attractive, then all-attractive, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. What do you think? Prajāpati: It would be very nice to engage them in this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. But they're not interested. They're interested in... Acyutānanda: Self. "Then my aim is that..." They're interested in people, then. How they understand self. Prajāpati: Right. Acyutānanda: So we have the highest standard of renunciation, highest standard of piety, highest standard of all religious qualities. So they cannot deny it. They cannot be noninterested. Prajāpati: But in that sense, they would see us as a threat. Acyutānanda: Yeah. So then you're only interested in keeping your Harvard chair. Prajāpati: That's right. Acyutānanda: Then they're not sincere. Prajāpati: Harvard chair, bishop's salary... Bishops get 25,000 dollars a year. Acyutānanda: Then if you can't discuss openly with people, then what's the point? Prajāpati: The point is they have big, big buildings, big, big salaries, big, big positions... Prabhupāda: That is... That is all right. If you want to keep one man in a very high position, you should give all comforts. That is good. Just like if you want to keep a king, he must have a palace. He must have his officers, secretaries... Acyutānanda: So he means to say that if we present that we are better theologists, then their position will be in jeopardy. Pañcadraviḍa: Then the question is "Then why...?" Now we are... Hypothetically, in this situation, we are approaching these theologists. Then why we are approaching if they are not open to discussion? I mean, what is the purpose in going to them? Acyutānanda: No. Prajāpati here studied theology and brought it up to Prabhupāda. Prajāpati: The purpose is because they are purporting to be... Acyutānanda: Authority. Prajāpati: ...what Śrīla Prabhupāda really is. Śrīla Prabhupāda is the real theologian, but they are using that name. And they... In that sense, they are the biggest cheaters. They're going by the name theologians, and they're not actually theologians. They're simply scholars, dry academicians. Prabhupāda: What is that scholarship? Simply... Prajāpati: The scholarship... They have degrees by their names, and they've gone through listening to other mental speculators, and now their students listen to them. Prabhupāda: You said there are twelve names? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. I have a list of them. Prabhupāda: In the Bible? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. One of them means "the Lord who sees me." One of them means "the supreme friend," "the supreme father." One of them means "the Lord of the mountain." One of them means "the King, the greatest King." "Brother" is another meaning. So... And these are all in the Old Testament, all these different names. So one of their arguments is that we're presenting a different name. Therefore they think it is a different God. We can refer that there are twelve names. Does that mean that there are twelve Gods? Acyutānanda: We have names which apply to those also. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. Acyutānanda: "Supreme friend." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Dīna*-bandhu. *Acyutānanda: Jagad*-bandhu. *Prabhupāda: He kṛṣṇa karuṇā*-sindho dīna-bandho jagat-pate. We have got these names. Acyutānanda: What's another one? *Prabhupāda: Gopikā*-suta. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Lord of the mountain. Acyutānanda: Girirāja. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: The Lord of the Mountain. *Prabhupāda: He kṛṣṇa karuṇā*-sindho dīna-bandho jagat-pate. Then? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: "The brother." Prabhupāda: Gopīka...? What is that, next line? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: "The brother." *Prabhupāda: He kṛṣṇa karuṇā*-sindho dīna-bandho... *Devotees: Gopīka*-kānta rādhā-kānta... Prabhupāda: The so many names in one verse, and we have got thousands of names. Prajāpati: Lord Caitanya would hear from Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita "The Thousand Names of Viṣṇu." Prabhupāda: Yes. And thousand names, they are recorded, but He has got millions of names. Pañcadraviḍa: In one tape, you said actually God has no name. You said God has no name, but because He... Prabhupāda: No, that is other party's argument, "God has no name." Pañcadraviḍa: No, no. In the tape, you said... In this tape, bhajana, explanation of bhajana, you said, "God... Actually God has no name, but because He does so many things, then He has names for..." Prabhupāda: Yes, according to His activities, there are names. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But all these twelve names, they still make that personality whom they are describing all-attractive. So that means... Prabhupāda: Yes. And not only that. When you have names, that means God is person. That must be admitted. God cannot be imperson. You may have twelve names or twelve thousand names, but when He has got name, He's a person. Now, our point is: "Who is that person?" Trivikrama: Their point is... Well, one of their points is that if Christ was actually the son of God, why didn't he talk about Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Hm? Trivikrama: If Christ was the son of God, the good son, how is that he didn't, he never mentioned Kṛṣṇa by name? Sometimes they criticize us like that: "Why is there no mention of Kṛṣṇa in the Christian Bible?" Prabhupāda: He might not have mentioned, but why there are twelve names in the Bible? Pañcadraviḍa: That's Old Testament. That's not Christ... Prabhupāda: The name is there. Acyutānanda: And Christ, Prabhupāda has... Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The point is that just like when you're... Prabhupāda: No, first of all, one should be answered. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm going to answer his point. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The answer to his point is that just as there's a president of the United States, so when someone is talking about the president, according to how intimate that person is, you discuss different subject matters. For example, if the person is just a common person, a regular person, you may discuss about the president's powers in the government. But when you meet someone who actually is intimately connected with the president, then you describe the president's family, how the president's family is doing, what is the president doing in his time of relaxation, etc. So similarly, Jesus was speaking to persons who were not very intimate with God. They were not so much spiritually advanced. Therefore, for those persons, simply the power and glory of God is mentioned in the Bible. But Kṛṣṇa, the description of Kṛṣṇa in the *Bhāgavatam*, is meant for the pure devotees. And for them the very detailed, intimate description of Kṛṣṇa is given there. Pañcadraviḍa: Nirmatsarāṇām. Prajāpati: A very major thing happenned to the Christian tradition in about 400 A.D. Up until that time, as best our records are, Christianity was very much like Kṛṣṇa consciousness, very much like our movement. But at that time it became the official religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, and it took on many of the paraphernalia of the old Roman demigod worship, and at that time it became a whole... Prabhupāda: Just to make it favorable for your government, for the government. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then deterioration began. Trivikrama: Deterioration. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they don't... Again, mentioning this Saul. Saul was converted on the way to Damascus, and he became a believer in God. Then, by himself, he traveled all over the known world and convinced everyone in the Roman Empire to accept, to accept Christianity. So it may have taken on those formal signs, but actually there was no process... According to them, there was no process done to dilute the religion or to weaken it or to change it, but it was only accepted by the masses. That's all. Prajāpati: Actually a very interesting thing, in terms of this point, is that this Paul, Saul, was in conflict with the direct disciplic succession from Jesus in many points. Those who were his, Jesus's, direct disciples, Paul disagreed with them and cut out many of their teachings or the teachings that were coming down in direct disciplic succession to make it more palatable to the outlying areas. Pañcadraviḍa: The government. Prajāpati: Yes. So at that moment there, the disciplic succession was broken. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: What is the time difference between Paul and Jesus' (?) disciples? Prajāpati: He was here at the same time. Peter, James... He was a contemporary, but he had never had any personal contact with Jesus while Jesus was in Gospel. (?) Pañcadraviḍa: In fact, he lived... He... In the beginning, he was against Christianity. He was antithetical to it. And then he experienced... Acyutānanda: He was a professional religionist who made it popular to the... *Pañcadraviḍa: And then he experienced a so*-called conversion, isn't it? Prajāpati: Yes. Acyutānanda: He fell off his horse and saw... Prajāpati: He heard a voice, fell off his horse, and he was blinded, and his eyesight would only be restored when he would approach a certain man in Jerusalem who was part of the Christian fold, and when he approached that man then his sight would be returned. Acyutānanda: This story... *Prabhupāda: Now, another question, that we say that God's name and God*-all-powerful. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā: "In the name of God, all God's potencies are there." So have you got any name like that? That means if you chant that name, you get immediately contact with God. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: That idea is put forth in the Psalms repeatedly. It says, "Sing the names of the Lord with high-sounding cymbals, with drums." It says in one place that "The name of the Lord is exalted even beyond heaven." Trivikrama: "Hallowed by Thy name." There's a prayer. Prabhupāda: That... What is that name? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They don't... The Christians... It says, "Sing the name of God," but they don't do that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if you have to chant name... Just like we prescribe, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," so what is the name they recommend to chant? Prajāpati: Adonai. Prabhupāda: Eh? Prajāpati: Adonai. Acyutānanda: "Adonai" is a... It's an apostrophe. Prajāpati: But that's the name that was chanted. Adonai (Hebrew). Pañcadraviḍa: No, by the Christians. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: What about Christians? Viṣṇujana: Jesus, Jehovah. They say Jesus is the name. Prabhupāda: Adonai, whose name it is? Pañcadraviḍa: Jewish. Acyutānanda: In India Christians say that Jesus Christ is God. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They're trying to substitute... In the beginning of the Bible it says that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God." And modern-day translations, they have substituted the word "Christ" for "the word." So it says, "In the beginning was Christ, and Christ was God." So they're trying to make, they're trying in that way to make Jesus God. And that is the name, because they don't know what is that word. Acyutānanda: Yes. Prajāpati: We can understand this... Prabhupāda: That is again another adulteration. Prajāpati: It is adulteration, but the tendency is there because Kṛṣṇa is a person. Because God is a person, they, everyone, wants to worship God as a person. It's the only way God can be worshiped. So because they do not know Kṛṣṇa, they make Jesus God so they can worship him as a person. Prabhupāda: That is also good. But do they do? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To worship means to follow the instructions, and they... Prabhupāda: Do they follow? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...do not follow the instructions. Prabhupāda: Yes. The... Do they follow the Ten Commandments? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Trivikrama: They say, "You cannot. It is not possible. Only you have to accept Christ. Then you will be saved." Acyutānanda: As Lord Zetland. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Lord Zetland said, "It is not possible..." Trivikrama: It is not possible. Acyutānanda: ...to give up meat and illicit..." Prabhupāda: Then? Where is Christian? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are. We are the Christians. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say then, "You can't do any of these things, so you have to accept Christ in your heart." Acyutānanda: That was my challenge, that "We are doing them better than all of you, so you... That's..." Prabhupāda: No, if you keep God or Christ within your heart, then your heart will be purified. That means you are cheating. Trivikrama: Yeah. Pañcadraviḍa: Yeah, that's what it boils down to. *Prabhupāda: You are all cheaters, not Christians, but cheaters. You do not keep in the heart Christ's name or God's name, but you keep your own ideas. Therefore you think it is impossible. Otherwise, your heart would have been cleansed. Ceto*-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Acyutānanda: You know the Cardinal that you spoke with in Paris? Prabhupāda: Hm? Acyutānanda: You know how he died? Prabhupāda: Yes. Acyutānanda: So. Brahmānanda: It has happenned again. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: Just when I was in Germany, a big Bishop in France, he was also found in a similar... He had died in a similar circumstance. Pañcadraviḍa: Worse state. Brahmānanda: Worse, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, these things are... And in Vṛndāvana, one big Gosvāmī, he died at the house of her (his) one woman disciple, lying there, sleeping with her. There are so many. Prabhupāda: Just see. Trivikrama: And he was saying that animals have no soul. Prabhupāda: You were present that time? Trivikrama: I heard the tape. So now he is an animal. He knows. Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) So I am just interested, but people will, many people will come and many theories. So you discuss among yourself how to get the strength to defend yourself and to convince them. Acyutānanda: But unless their theology is practical, if it is not practical, then it is useless to study theology, if it has no practical application. Prajāpati: They make that point. "Therefore," they say, "such talk about God is impractical. So therefore we don't bother talking about God." *Prabhupāda: "Then why you put theology?" That is our point. "Then why you have put this theology?" "There's no use talking of God"*-that is another thing. But when you make "logy," you must come to logic. "Logy" means discussion. Is it not? "Logy" means science? Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of "logy"? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Knowledge Prabhupāda: Hmmm? Find out this dictionary meaning. Prajāpati: Logic is the rational ordering of thoughts in words. Pañcadraviḍa: When I was in San Francisco six or seven years ago, some new school of theology, theologians, they were having things, like they were opening up churches to the hippies to have parties for LSD and things like that. I remember a couple at the Glide Memorial Church. They had that. And a number of the other new theologians, they were starting to talk about "free sex," and drugs, and... Acyutānanda: They put on stunts to attract people to accept Christianity. Trivikrama: Like Bingo. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. Acyutānanda: Bingo. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: And they have opened special churches for homosexuals in Australia. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Special churches for homosexuals in Australia. Devotee: Oh, all over. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All over. *Pañcadraviḍa: So see: Churches for illicit sex, churches for intoxication, churches for gambling, and churches for meat*-eating. Acyutānanda: Every (?) Sunday they all have. Trivikrama: Once I was driving a taxi, and a woman got in the cab, and she said, "I hope my goddamn luck is better tonight." She was going to a church. (laughter) She was going to a church to play bingo, and she was speaking like that. Śrutakīrti: There's the word "logos," "logo." "Logos" is here. It means "word, or second person of a trinity." Prabhupāda: No, no. "Logy." Śrutakīrti: "Logy" is not here. Pañcadraviḍa: Logic. Prabhupāda: Logic. Śrutakīrti: Logic is here. "Scheme of or trustees (?) on, science of reasoning..." Prabhupāda: That... That... Śrutakīrti: "...chain of reasoning, arguments, logical..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: "...of logic, in conformity with principles of logic." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Science of reasoning. Prajāpati: In words. Prabhupāda: So "logy" means logic. Acyutānanda: If you say what you are..., your own theory, cannot be done, that's illogical. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Acyutānanda: If you propose a theory and say, "It can exist," then that's an illogical presentation. A rabbit's horn. [break] It can't exist. Sky*-flower. Doesn't... *Prajāpati: Each of these big theologians has a specific area of specialization. For example, I took a course, when I was a student in the School of Theology, in the New Testament, hoping to learn scriptures, but instead, the entire semester was spent trying to decide which of the books of the Bible came first*-the Book of Matthew or the Book of Mark? And they had very detailed ways of what they called "form criticism," taking a particular passage and checking it, seeing... Acyutānanda: Right. What is their method? Pañcadraviḍa: Why did you say you joined? What was it? I mean what was it you were trying to study? You said... Prajāpati: I went three years to a school of theology. Pañcadraviḍa: But that particular course? Prajāpati: This was a course in the New Testament. Pañcadraviḍa: So why, why did you say you took it? Prajāpati: To study the śāstra, to study the scriptures. What was being said. Instead... Acyutānanda: No, what was their method for examining their material, research? Prajāpati: The material research is taking, finding certain forms, certain sentence construction, grammar, and comparing it with other passages in the scriptures as opposed to that grammar, to see if the form is the same, to see, to determine by different criteria which came first, which is earlier. Acyutānanda: So after... Prabhupāda: No, their... Acyutānanda: Since St. Paul did they find out... Prabhupāda: That is academic. That is not theology. Acyutānanda: I think that, Prabhupāda, the theologians invented these questions like "Can God make a yardstick with no end on it? How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? Can God make a mountain that He can't pick up? Can God commit suicide?" All these questions, they... Prajāpati: Not so much... Acyutānanda: ...talk about. Prajāpati: This is what's called philosophy of religion. This is different than theology. Philosophy of religion, they're all atheists, all taking pokes at the other people's idea of God. Acyutānanda: People like (indistinct) Prajāpati: A great, a conference of philosophers of religion met in London about ten years ago on the topic "Talk of God." Each man presented a paper, his idea of talk of God. No one had any inkling of God. Simply they were speculating on why people talk of God. *Pañcadraviḍa: Then what is the use of all this? I'd rather just sit home and read Caitanya*-caritāmṛta (laughter) than get into this. Prajāpati: The use, the reason for it, is because these people, though they are great rascals, are influencing millions of other people. They're influencing them to hell rather than those same people hearing from Śrīla Prabhupāda or hearing from you gentlemen can be elevated to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Acyutānanda: There's a single serious way. You can say, "Look, you've been sitting here since St. Paul, and you haven't arrived at anything except discussion, and you're bluffing the whole public that you're doing some advanced research and taking salaries and..." *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But, but we have to convince them. Pañcadraviḍa: But how can you convince them...? Acyutānanda: We'll convince them that they haven't come to any conclusion. Pañcadraviḍa: Yeah, how can you convince them if they can't even, they cannot define who is God, they cannot define what is the soul, they cannot define what is the principles of religion? Acyutānanda: And their leader is breaking all of them. Pañcadraviḍa: They cannot... They can't... They don't even have any disciplic succession. Their śāstra is... They can't agree among them what is the concise śāstra, nor can they agree on what is the importance of accepting śāstra in the first place. They're doing all sinful activities. So then... Then what is there to convince? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: So why not start an authoritative group of Christians who chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, who study the Bible and read the Bhagavad-gītā? Acyutānanda: We are. Prabhupāda: We are all Christians. Acyutānanda: Here we are. Pañcadraviḍa: We already are Christians. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: But they are seeing us... They don't accept that, though. If somebody was calling themselves Christians... Prabhupāda: That... It is not possible that everyone will accept you. That is not possible. Pañcadraviḍa: They... The Christians on the street, they don't accept because they say, "You have not accepted Christ." I say, "I am following all Christ's teachings." They say, "Well, you haven't been baptized. If you're following all the principles, why not be baptized?" *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: I was baptized. Prajāpati: But this is a... This group of Christians you meet on the street that are fundamentalists following the Bible are very different group from the big Harvard scholars. The theologians that we're concerned with are those that are actually influencing millions of people by their rascaldom. Acyutānanda: Do they come up with any big decisions every year and change people's...? Pañcadraviḍa: I never met anyone who was influenced by any of these theologians. I never even heard of 'em. I never even heard of them till you just started discussing today. (laughter) I don't know anybody in the Western world who's influenced by any theologians. Acyutānanda: No, maybe they set the policies for churches. Maybe they influence them. Prajāpati: Yes, right. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: They do. Prajāpati: The main people who listen to the theologians are the pulpit preachers, the shepherds of individual flocks of Christians around the world. They are the ones who are most influenced by the theologians. Acyutānanda: They stay in... *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Government leaders all over the world are influenced by these... And they run their... They base their policies on the ethics of the Christian Church. Acyutānanda: What I say is that... *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: And if you try to present something different, then they're opposed to that based on their conditioning, based on the influence... Pañcadraviḍa: But is the Christian Church, is that being determined by the theologians at Harvard? They, they have some say in this? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. They set the... They write the books, though. They interpret the Bible. They are the so-called gurus because they interpret the scripture whatever way they want to. Trivikrama: So you know some of these people? Prajāpati: Yes, we've had some contact. We arranged a very nice meeting with Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja with one of the foremost theologians at Harvard. His name is Harvey Cox. Perhaps you're familiar with his book The Secular City. And we came and brought devotees into the class and chanted. The people thought it was... Acyutānanda: So what was his suggestions? Pañcadraviḍa: Now, what was his reaction, first of all? What was his reaction to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? What did he say? Prajāpati: They don't take us seriously. They still look upon us as just singing and dancing in the street, and that's it. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, that's... Acyutānanda: They have to realize that... Pañcadraviḍa: That's also there in the Hindu community. Most of the Hindus they don't take us seriously either. Trivikrama: Even when they see all these books? Acyutānanda: No, when they see that we've given up our drugs and our everything, we've taken a religious life, they invited us. I think they just see that we have something to beat them, and they usher us out, knowing that their position is in jeopardy. Prajāpati: The reason we're here right this afternoon is the fact that though these men are preaching this rascaldom, our preaching can undermine it, at least to the point where they can be influenced and that the people that they are, are being influenced by them will take some notice, "Yes, this is a viable alternative" to the rascaldom that they're being presented, this... Acyutānanda: Good. Pañcadraviḍa: I had the feeling that it is just like when I was approaching people in Calcutta. They said, "We'll help you, but we cannot help you in a big way because we're already giving so much help to the Ramakrishna Society." So then after hearing this a few times, I concluded that people respected the Ramakrishna Society because they have a lot of money and a lot of popular support and everybody was giving to them, so they just, just like everybody else, they wanted to be part of the whole show. So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, we have books, we have teaching, and we can present the principles very purely. But in terms of a world movement, we don't have a lot of money or a lot of power or a lot of tanks or a lot of guns or a lot of churches or a lot of popular support. Acyutānanda: What is the idea...? Pañcadraviḍa: So maybe the theologians won't accept us on that basis, that we're not powerful. Acyutānanda: Who is the ideal Christian according to the theologists? What do they say is the best, let's say, flock of Christians? What do they do? Pañcadraviḍa: Who's the biggest? Acyutānanda: Bishop Sheen? Prajāpati: There is no, I would say, among theologians, no consensus. Acyutānanda: So when are they satisfied that you are a real Christian or not? Pañcadraviḍa: When do you become a theologian? Who is the biggest theologians? How are they accepted? On the basis of degree? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Scholarship. Prajāpati: Yes, scholarship, books published. Acyutānanda: Well, then it could probably be possible to be a theologian without even really believing in Christianity. Prajāpati: Oh, definitely. Most of them don't. *Pañcadraviḍa: Then Prabhupāda's the biggest theologian because we have twenty*-two books right here on the shelf. And we have the credentials. And they cannot dismiss the books either because we have the credentials that they are being used in major universities in, all over the world. So if universities are accepting, and they get their power from the degrees obtained from the universities, they cannot dismiss any longer. Isn't it? Acyutānanda: We have broken the disciplic succession now. We become by degree, by qualification. *Prajāpati: In all their scholarly journals-and they publish quite a few*-very few, little is written about God. The subject matter of God is... Pañcadraviḍa: They talk of man's relation, the benefit of man... Prajāpati: The Church, different aspect of scholarship, different aspects in biblical research. Acyutānanda: No, say some things specific. Pañcadraviḍa: Yeah, I can't understand all that. Trivikrama: I know what you mean. I read some of their... *Prajāpati: I have tried to attack them by just taking a specific article, and I am lost immediately myself. It's all mish*-mosh. There's nothing there to fight. It's like a... But the use is that we must... Acyutānanda: There must be something to attract them. So they're giving arguments for Christians who are, you know... intellectual. *Pañcadraviḍa: The thing is... The thing that makes it hard to understand what the use is*-because we say, then, in all these... We try to define and they can't be defined. And then you say that they don't take us seriously. They don't accept what we're saying. They don't accept these teachings. They would dismiss us in a minute. What is the use? Acyutānanda: They must say something concrete. Prajāpati: Well, the most concrete they get is their dissatisfaction with the present status quo. So in that we're in agreement with them. "Yes, we're dissatisfied with the status quo also, but we are offering alternatives that are..." Acyutānanda: They're dissatisfied with the people who are sinful. Paramahaṁsa: Where is their method for changing the status quo? Acyutānanda: They're not dissatisfied... Prabhupāda: Method is there, the Ten Commandments, but they won't follow. Prajāpati: Well, instead of being dissatisfied with the fact that people are sinful... Prabhupāda: Method is already there in the Bible. Prajāpati: They're dissatisfied with the fact that the... Prabhupāda: But they don't follow it. Prajāpati: ...that the air is polluted, that people are... Pañcadraviḍa: So the hippies are dissatisfied that the air is polluted also. So what? Pañcadraviḍa: Yes, who cares for the hippies? Prajāpati: That, exactly, is the point. They're looking to Freud, they're looking to Marx, they're looking to everyone as an authority. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: I'll give you an example, In Zambia, the president, his name is Dr. Kenneth Kaunda. [break] He's exactly one of these persons. I met with him a couple weeks ago. He's John, John... What's his name? John Patrick? Śrīla Prabhupāda, you met him in London. And he's one of these philosophers. And his argument against our work and our preaching was that we shouldn't fly on jet planes because it pollutes the air. That was his argument Acyutānanda: How did he get to Africa from London? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: He said he walked. (Laughter) Acyutānanda: And you killed so many insects under your feet. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: No, he goes on jets. But that's his argument to defeat our philosophy. This is how they argue. What he's saying is true. They actually argue like this, that we are, we are, our philosophy is not correct because we fly on jet planes. They have a completely materialistic... Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, then how's he travel? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Well, for him, it's all right. He doesn't care. But for someone who's preaching a nonmaterialistic philosophy. So this is... These are the kind of people that are influencing people like Dr. Kenneth Kaunda, who's the president of a country, of Zambia, that has something like twelve million people. Acyutānanda: Well, we say, "What is the difference between matter and spirit?" *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes, we argued all these points with him, but still, his ultimate... *Acyutānanda: So actually all these people are just word*-jugglers who want to keep their position with the government. Prajāpati: They have government. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes, and that's what they do. Prajāpati: They have grants. They write books. Acyutānanda: Just to keep their, their... Prajāpati: But the books are being read. Pañcadraviḍa: There's a saying that. Prabhupāda: Eh? Acyutānanda: Cinmayananda Swami. He's a professional swami, and he confuses all the people very talentedly so that they all clap. If you ask them after... Prabhupāda has asked them, "What did he say?" "He said very nicely." But they can't say anything. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: So... These men are influencing. One of the things we did. We invited him to the temple, and we gave him a big plate of nice prasādam, and he liked it very much. He said, "If my wife could learn to cook like this, I'd give up meat." So we thought that was very significant. Pañcadraviḍa: Send his wife over to the temple. We'll train her up. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: So why don't you write a book? Why don't you become a theologian from their point of view and write a book about Christianity? If they, if they can do it, if they can do it, write books and get people to read them, then why can't you do the same thing, write books on Christianity? Acyutānanda: Did you pass the course in...? Devotee (2): If you want to get into their world. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rūpānuga... Rūpānuga is already getting one book together, so you can write a chapter in it. There's a book, and he's going to comment... It's a scientific book on different aspects and he's commenting on, I think, social, various social applications. So you can comment on the theosophical points. I mean it can be included in this book. Actually if you have the qualifications, I'm sure he would want a chapter from you. Prabhupāda, you know that book Rūpānuga's putting together? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That'd be appreciated cause it's going to reach many intelligent people. Acyutānanda: More than the theologians people listen to psychiatrists. Prajāpati: Yes, the theologians listen to the psychiatrists. *Acyutānanda: They have another mish*-mosh to delude the people into paying the money. They're simply tricksters. Tricksters. Prajāpati: Many of the theologians today are influenced by a book called I'm OK, You're OK, which... Acyutānanda: We're O.K. Śrutakīrti: (To Prabhupāda) You want to keep this here? Prabhupāda: Hm. Prajāpati: ...Dr. Harris. And this book's central tenet is that we can be happy in life simply by patting each other on the back and approving of what each other does. Acyutānanda: No one's saying stabbing... (?) Trivikrama: Actually material nature's kicking them on the head and shoulders every minute. And they're thinking everything is OK. That is māyā. Pañcadraviḍa: One of the principles, I'm told, of psychology's is whether a person can pass semmina or not. If he can pass semina, then he's considered normal, and if he can't, he's subnormal. This is the standard. Acyutānanda: So he has said to... Prabhupāda: Now our next point is that we say that God, the person, is identical with His name. Now, if, by meeting God, by seeing God, you become purified, then by chanting His name also, you'll become purified, because we say God and His name, identical. But if, by meeting God, you become immediately purified of material contamination, similarly, by chanting God's name you immediately become purified. So what is that name of God that acts immediately, exactly like God? So far Kṛṣṇa name is concerned, it is practically that so many thousands of men, they are chanting "Kṛṣṇa," and they are becoming purified. So find out any other name which can act equally. Then that is accepted as God's name, not by imagination. Pañcadraviḍa: How do you find out, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: How...? If a person says, "How do you find out? How we can find out other names?" Prabhupāda: Here we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and we are becoming purified. That is the name. Pañcadraviḍa: Dhruva chanted Oṁ... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇeti na..., varṇa*-dvayam. Kṛṣṇeti. Kṛṣ-ṇa, varṇa, alphabets two. Jīva Gosvāmī said, kṛṣṇeti varṇa-dvayam. This is the name. Rāma. Rāmeti varṇa-dvayam. You chant Rāma, Rāma, you chant Kṛṣṇa, and it is... It will act. And there is proof. So find out any other name. If he acts... If it acts like that, then it is God's name. Phalena paricīyate: "By the action, we have to understand the substance." Just like quinine is understood to subsidize, subside fever. Then if you take something as quinine and if your fever is gone, then it is quinine. Similarly, God-name, it acting as God, purifying... So Kṛṣṇa is purifying. Therefore it's God's name. Yes? Devotee (3): It's almost time for lunch, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Eh. Devotee (3): Shall we go? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] It will take some time. But our line of action... *Devotee (2): Generally these type of people are... They're so mentally puffed*-up that a process like chanting doesn't appeal to them. They want something for their minds to speculate on. Prabhupāda: Why not process? Eh? Eh? Devotee (2): The books are what actually attracts them. It attracts their minds. Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got two process. One process is chanting. Another process: read books. That is also chanting. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: One argument that the Christians have... When we tell them that we accept Lord Jesus, so they say that "You haven't accepted Jesus into your heart." We say, "We're following the teachings of Jesus." And they say, "But you haven't accepted Jesus into your heart," that "You're not a follower of Jesus. And that's the lacking qualification." Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to convince them. [break] We may not keep the Christ in heart, but even you do not keep Christ by your dealings. You are simply disobeying the orders. Then how you can be a Christian? *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Jesus says that in Matthew. He says that "Many will come to me and say, 'Lord, Lord,' that 'We cured the sick in your name, and we cast out demons in your name,' " and Jesus said that "When they come I will say, 'Get away from me. I know you not, for you failed to do the will of my Father.' " Even though they're claiming to be Christians. Prabhupāda: Yes. Prajāpati: Many times, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've heard you say, when speaking to people, that "You don't have to give up your faith. You can remain a Christian or you can remain a Mohammedan. Simply chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and you'll become purified." So the main point... Prabhupāda: No, we say not only Hare Kṛṣṇa. "You chant the name of God. But if you have no name of God, then here is the name of God." *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yeah. So that if we can get Christians to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then... Prabhupāda: That is all right. Anyone who chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, he becomes purified. It doesn't matter what he is. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Many of them are afraid to accept our movement or our philosophy because they feel that their personal religion is threatened, that they'll have to stop being a Christian. So when I earlier mentioned that to start some Christian group, the idea was to have some people who are professing to be Christians, but they are taking the word of Jesus to the deepest point where he says that "There are many things I have not revealed to you, and you will understand them by the grace of the Holy Spirit." So they could have a Christian group where people worshiped Lord Jesus as their spiritual master and simultaneously worshiped Kṛṣṇa. And they could introduce that to develop more knowledge of God one can read the Bhagavad-gītā, one can follow the instruction in the Bible by chanting the names of God, and they would have better access to Christians than those of us who are wearing robes or shaving our heads. Prajāpati: Better the same people to understand that Śrīla Prabhupāda meets all the qualifications that Jesus Christ met, plus more in he is here, and he is the Christ. Christ is the anointed one of God. *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: Yes. So we have to bring them to that understanding, but we have to understand also that they're afraid, that their own faith will be shaken. So if you can give them more knowledge, then they can come to understand that. So if they... You have said that we accept Jesus as our guru. So if someone was practically worshiping, so then they could see. They could not deny. When a devotee says to them, "Yes, I'm accepting Jesus in my heart," They could not deny. If they are, for instance in a person, householder's home-he's worshiping Kṛṣṇa, and he's having a picture of you and a picture of Jesus-then there's no way they can deny that they are not Christians. And they could have access to a lot of the young Christian groups. [break] Prajāpati: This life... [break] (end) Morning Walk -- April 2, 1975, Mäyäpur Pañcadraviḍa: ...take the chemicals and combine them together in a test tube so that a soul can enter into that and... Prabhupāda: God is not your father's servant, that He will arrange to bring the soul. You are God's servant. Pañcadraviḍa: So you're... Cannot be done, then? Prabhupāda: No. If you bring, you can bring soul by some arrangement, then we shall think that you are better than God. But you are rascal. You are thinking like that. You cannot do that. God will not agree to send a soul to your arrangement. You should always remember that you are servant of God. God is not your servant. That is knowledge. [Break] Gurudāsa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: I just wanted to ask that question. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Don't try to make God your servant. That is foolishness. You must always agree that "I am servant of God." Pañcadraviḍa: Because in the class that... I asked that question because we're saying, well, there's no question of creating life. We're agreeing that the soul already exists. But can the scientists... If a scientist claims he'll create the conditions in which a soul will enter, do we accept that premise, and I thought, "No, because that's giving them much too much ground," that if we say that, then by their definition, they can say, "I am creating life. I don't want to argue over the existence or not of the soul, but I'll arrange all the chemicals for you." Prabhupāda: Where is that chemist? Where is that chemical combination that, I mean to say, grows a soul, generate a soul? Even if you have got the chemicals, you cannot do it. Pañcadraviḍa: Whether it's true or not, somebody was claiming to me that the scientists are creating primitive forms of life like enzymes and things like this because enzymes show... Enzymes are produced by life. They show certain living tendencies. The scientists claim they are able to create enzymes. Prabhupāda: So what is the credit? The enzymes are being naturally created, and the soul is there. So what is his credit? The arrangement is already there automatically, the secretion between the man and the woman, and they mix together, emulsified, and the situation is created, and the soul comes there. The soul is injected through the semina of the man. It is already arranged. So what is your credit? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say the credit is that "We are doing these things in the laboratory without the presence of the soul. They are not being produced by any living organism." Prabhupāda: : Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: "They are not being produced by any living organism." *Prabhupāda: No, no. That is your, your foolishness. Living organism is there. Just like we find something... The same argument, vṛścika*-tāṇḍula-nyāya: "Vṛścika, the scorpion, is coming out of the heaps of rice." That... It does not mean the rice is produced the scorpion. That is foolishness. Rice, the heaps of rice, it does not create any scorpion. We have to get down here? *Tamal*-kṛṣṇa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Four sources of life: aṇḍa*-ja, udbhi-ja, jarāyu-ja and sveda-ja. Sveda-ja. The sveda-ja means just like these bugs. Wherefrom the bugs in the bed come? Is there any laboratory arrangement? Pañcadraviḍa: No. Prabhupāda: So why these rascals do not understand? The bugs come from the perspiration. So in the perspiration, there is all chemicals, and the bug is coming. Now, where is their chemical? Who has put here chemical? This grass is coming. How it is coming? It is so... Pañcadraviḍa: The chemicals are coming from the perspiration. Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Seed. Prabhupāda: There, that the, this grass is coming out of the earth. Wherefrom it is coming? Who has put the chemicals? And the eggs of the birds, they are produced in the womb of the birds, and from there the life is coming, the bird is coming. Where is the chemical? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, that's just a complex chemical reaction. We can't explain it yet... *Prabhupāda: But "Can't explain"*-that means you are fool. You remain fool. Don't try to expose yourself, nonsense. You are a rascal number one; you remain rascal number one. When the neck is caught up, he says, "Yes, it is complex. We shall see in the future." Why "future?" What about now? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, a hundred years ago we couldn't make this movie camera either. But now they are producing easily. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot do this business. This is an art. Hundred years ago, people could not produce electricity by mixing two wire. Pañcadraviḍa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is an art. It is artist's... What is called? Craftmanship. Hundred years, could not produce motor car. But that does not mean you have become God, you rascal. Pañcadraviḍa: : Well, isn't God just a craftsman also? He's just an... *Prabhupāda: Yes, He is everything. He's everything*-but not a fool like you. That's all. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there a jīva, is there a spirit soul in every sperm cell, or does that...? Does the spirit soul only come to a particular sperm cell, or is there one in every sperm cell, and the condition isn't right, so then it dies before, I mean, it leaves before it actually forms a body? Prabhupāda: Yes. The sperm, generally in every sperm there is spirit soul. But sometimes we put checks. The contraceptive method means putting check. Just like you pollute the milk. Then it loses his strength. So similarly, there are other circumstances which checks the sperm to inject soul. [Break] ...exposing themselves that they are rascal number one. That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's a little slippery, Prabhupāda. We'll go around here. *Śruta*-kīrti: It's all right here. Prabhupāda: I'll do. Mūḍhas. They are mūḍhas, means rascals, and they're exposing more and more that yes, they are mūḍhas. And another set of rascals, what is called, recognizing that "Yes, take this degree." Avyāpare suvyāparaṁ yo naraḥ kartum icchati sa mūḍhaḥ hanyate 'khilotpad iva vānaraḥ.(?) Vānara means monkey. Monkey... One monkey... there was a woodcutter. What is called, woodcutter? Paramahaṁsa: Carpenter. Devotee: Lumberjack. Prabhupāda: Eh? Lumber...? *Sruta*-kirti: Lumberjack. Pañcadraviḍa: Cuts trees? Prabhupāda: No, no. Formerly, with saw, they used to make planks from big, big... What is that? Madhudviṣa: Sawmill? *Sruta*-kirti: Carpenter. *Prabhupāda: Not... Sawmill is now. Formerly they were doing it*-hand. Pañcadraviḍa: Carpenter. Prabhupāda: Not carpenter. All right, the man who used to bifurcate the big, big planks, and after finishing the business, he would put one, what is called, plug so that it may not again come... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Join. Prabhupāda: Jam. Yes. So one monkey came. They monkey came. He, he began to, as his business, (makes sound "kut, kut, kut," and the plug was taken away and his half part of the body-"Jam." And the... (Makes sound, monkey crying) "tahn, tahn, tahn, tahn." Who is coming to help him? He died. So this is not his business. He's a monkey. And he wanted to do that business. Similarly, these things are directly in the hands of God, and these monkeys are coming to get out the plug. So they'll die simply, that's all, like the monkey. They'll never be able to successfully produce soul and these things. Madhudviṣa: So couldn't the scientists say that it's God's will that when, when there is a... Prabhupāda: Now, now according to their theory, there was no human being. And from uncivilized man, they are becoming... They have taken to science, say, for last two hundred years. Before that, how things were going on without these rascals? Madhudviṣa: They say, "uncivilized." Prabhupāda: Eh? Uncivilized. And they are..., he was producing the soul, man? They're uncivilized? This, such nice... That is another exposal of their rascaldom. Madhudviṣa: They say modern man is living much more comfortably than he did two hundred years ago. Prabhupāda: Yes. madhu: This is our advancement. Prabhupāda: What is that comfortable? What is the comfort? Give me the example of comfort? Brahmānanda: Music Madhudviṣa: Cameras. Pañcadraviḍa: Tape recorders. Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) These are comfortable? Madhudviṣa: Automobiles. Aeroplanes. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they enable comfort. A person can lie down in his comfortable bed in his nice apartment and listen to music out of the wall. Prabhupāda: But what about his death, how he uncomfortably dying? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, we can't change that. Prabhupāda: Then what you can change? Viṣṇujana: But they can give you drugs to make death so that you don't feel it. Madhudviṣa: Yeah, you can die in your sleep. Prabhupāda: That is, means another death. You check death by death. That's all. These are all rascals. You are not yet convinced that these, they are rascals. That is your defect. Pañcadraviḍa: I went to see my grandfather when he was dying. They said, "We have a nice arrangement. He's going to die in two weeks. Don't tell him. He'll die peacefully in his sleep." That was their arrangement. Prabhupāda: Coma. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Many of the scientists actually believe in God, and they think that by experimentation, they'll come to understand God more and more. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That we admire, that you are trying to understand God. But there is no God, and they are becoming God*-that is nonsense. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Rāmeśvara: Some people say that Darwin was paid by the British... Prabhupāda: Yes, I said. Rāmeśvara: ...to make propaganda. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rāmeśvara: Against religion. Prabhupāda: Not against religion. Against Indian culture. Rāmeśvara: Against Indian cultu... Prabhupāda: Yes. Britishers made so many attempts that "Indians were uncivilized, and we have come here to make them civilized." Rāmeśvara: So for colonialism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to... Because there are other powers, so they are envious that "Why these rascals, they occupy India?" So, so just to support this occupation, I mean to say, yes, occupation, and..., they made so many propaganda. Even during Gandhi's movement, they engaged one American woman to write a book "Mother India." "Mother India." "Mother India." So the... In... That "Mother India" is simply full of stories where there are so defects. Suppose a priest in the temple is attached with some woman, like that, so many stories like... So one Punjabi, what is his name? Gobha, (?) Gobha. He counteracted that book-"Uncle Sam." (laughter) So these things are going on. Madhudviṣa: Is that where that name came from, "Uncle Sam"? Prabhupāda: Uncle Sam is the American word? Trivikrama: Yes, yes. Pañcadraviḍa: No. Prabhupāda: And he described the American life in so, mean, badly. Pañcadraviḍa: Is there any... Prabhupāda: And Gandhi said, "This Mother India is the drain inspector's report." *Tamal*-kṛṣṇa: The drain inspectors? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sewage inspector report. These things will go on. So long people will remain in darkness about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things, rubbish things, will go on. I'll find out fault in you; you'll find out fault in me. That's all. Because the basic principle of material civilization is envy. I do not like you; *you do not like me. That's all. Envy. Everywhere, individually, nationally, socially, familywise*-everyone is envious. That is the material disease. And therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇam [SB 1.1.2]. Those who are interested in superfluous religious system, cheating system of religion... Just like the Christians, they say that "Christ has taken contract for all our sinful activities." Trivikrama: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is cheating system. Once Christ advised that you, you should not act sinfully, and then he takes contract for all your sinful life. How cheating it is, directly cheating. Pañcadraviḍa: Who was cheating? *Prabhupāda: These so*-called Christians. They say that "We are very weak. We can not restrain ourself from sinful activities, so we believe in Christ, and he has taken contract for suffering. That's all." Trivikrama: "So let us go on sinning." Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: Kill him again. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their philosophy. And as they pass laws in the Parliament, similarly, these churches approve: "Yes, homosex is all right." Then it is all right. This cheating system is going on. Similar cheating system is the Hindus also. You'll find in Calcutta, in College Street, so many butcher house. And they have kept one goddess Kālī that "We are eating Mother Kali's prasāda." That's it. This is going on. Brahmānanda: Kali eats meat. *Prabhupāda: Kali does not eat meat, but it is the śāstra's injunction that those who are unable to give up meat*-eating, they may sacrifice one goat, not cow, one small animal before the goddess Kali, on amāvāsya (new moon) day, night, not day, and they can eat it. Pañcadraviḍa: If it's offered, though, who accepts it? Whose prasādam is it? Who takes it? Prabhupāda: The prasādam is not... That meat is not taken by Kali, but it is taken by the witches and others, associates of Kali. *Brahmānanda: In Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, you write that goddess Kali takes the prasādam of her husband, Lord Śiva. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: So therefore she is vegetarian. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: You were talking about enviousness, Śrīla Prabhupāda. And we see that this even sometimes pervades in our own society. Prabhupāda: Because you have, you are not yet perfect. That means. You are not yet perfect. You are trying to be perfect. Now be perfect. Madhudviṣa: Is there a way, is there a specific way to counteract this bad quality of enviousness? Prabhupāda: And yes, just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Cleanse your mind. All dirty things will go. Because you neglect to chant regularly, therefore the dirty things remain. Pañcadraviḍa: One devotee was talking with a Māyāvādī sannyāsī, famous sannyāsī. So he said that "Your desire to attain mukti, that is a material desire." Prabhupāda: No, we don't want mukti. Pañcadraviḍa: Yes. So... Prabhupāda: Mukti flatters me: "Please accept me." We don't want mukti. Pañcadraviḍa: So the devotee went on, "To want to become one with the Lord, that is material desire." So the Māyāvādī, he answered, he said, "No, to want to remain separate from the Lord and enjoy rasa, or exchange, with Him, that is also material desire. Because you want to stay two, God and you, so you can be separate just so you can enjoy an exchange. That is also a desire." Prabhupāda: Therefore, because you have no brain, therefore you cannot understand the rasas with Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual; *that is not material. Ānanda*-rasa. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. That is the Vedic statement. There is cinmaya. In the spiritual world there is ananda. You... You have no knowledge. You, due to your poor fund of knowledge, you think that in the spiritual world there is no rasa; *it is simply void, negation of this rasa. Just like a diseased man. He is practiced to drink bitter medicine and pass stool on the bed and so many inconveniences, so if some of his friends says, "When you'll be cured, you'll be able to pass stool in the lavatory. You haven't got to, haven't got to pass stool..." Then he shudders: "Again I have to pass stool after becoming cured? Again I have to eat? No, no, this is not good. Make it zero." He has no idea what is the meaning of passing stool in healthy stage. It refreshes the body. We get good energy. That he cannot conceive. He thinks that "If there is passing of stool again, then it must be the same suffering as I am undergoing now in this condition." So the Māyāvādī's idea of spiritual life means negation of these material activities. But they have no idea that similar activities are there in spiritual life, but that is not material. That is their poor fund of knowledge. Therefore we are... You are not understanding Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, the rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtīv hlādinī-śaktir asmāt. That I am explaining for the last few days. That is not at all this material. So unless there is loving affair in the spiritual world, how here it is as perverted reflection? It is the reflection of the reality. The reality is there. That they cannot understand. That is also hinted in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "There is another feature, or another nature," paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyaḥ [Bg. 8.20], "which is sanātana, is eternal." Here the rasas, on account of being material, they are flickering. But there, real rasa is permanent. Here the loving affairs between two parties finish as soon as the bodies finish. But there, there is no question of finishing. Increasing. Ānandambudhi-vardhanam, increasing. Harer nāma... [Break]...in reality, "what I am," that can be understood through devotional service, not by karma, jñāna, yoga. But... Give this example, I mean to say, authoritative statement of Kṛṣṇa, that bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Pañcadraviḍa: I didn't speak with him. Another devotee did. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: Another devotee spoke with this person. Prabhupāda: So what is your answer, that you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, as Kṛṣṇa says, without bhakti. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, we're.... They might answer that that's all right for understanding Kṛṣṇa, but the highest state is to merge with God, and then there's no more living entity, no more God. Everything becomes one. Prabhupāda: That means you have become more than Kṛṣṇa. One who states like that, he has become more than Kṛṣṇa. Viṣṇujana: Yes, they believe that. Pañcadraviḍa: Not more than Kṛṣṇa. Same as Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Oh, he's not... He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that "My dear Arjuna, you, Me, and all these soldiers, they existed before, and they're existing now, and they will exist in the future." So where is merging? Merging is suiciding. It is a spiritual suicide. Disgusted with these material affairs... Just like sometimes a man, being disgusted with this material world, he commits suicide, so this merging is also a kind of suicide. Pañcadraviḍa: But Brahman always exists. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: Brahman always exists. We're not, we're not saying that Brahman stops existing. So these, the living entities... Prabhupāda: Yes, again they will come. Pañcadraviḍa: They're all Brahman. So they will continue to exist. Brahman doesn't stop existing. Prabhupāda: Everything exists. For the time being, he may merge; then again he'll come to enjoy this material body. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. Patanty adhaḥ. Even they become merged into the existence of Brahman, again they come back because there is no āśraya. Just like these air, airplanes or the jets. They have invented very good machine, eighteen thousand miles per hour, going very high, but there is no place. They come down again. That is a fact. What is the use of going so high, eighteen thousand miles per hour, and travel and then again come back. Why do you take unnecessary trouble if you cannot stay there? You migrated from Europe and other countries to America. You got shelter. You stayed there. That colonization was successful. But if you are going to colonize in the moon and there is no place to stay, then why you are spending so much money unnecessarily? What is this foolishness? And they have stopped now. So in this way they are trying to merge into the Brahman effulgence, but where to stay? They can stay in the Brahman effulgence as minute particle of soul, but the soul wants ananda, then again-"It was better to live in the material world." They come back again. That is statement of the śāstra. Āruhya kṛccheṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ. They may go very high, same way as the jets are going, but there is no shelter. Shelter is the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. So without shelter, they cannot remain there, and because by nature he wants ānanda... Suppose if you remain in the sky for many, many years, would you feel very comfortable? Then you have to come back again. What is the use of being falsely proud-"Now we have invented the machine. We can go eighteen thousand miles per hour and up in the sky"? That's all right, but what is the benefit out of it? Without ānanda, without society, friendship and love, you cannot be happy in the vacant sky. Then you'll have to seek again-"Give me some shelter. It is all false." *Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, a question arose the other day in class if there was a difference between Brahman*-realized yogi and a Māyāvādī. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Madhudviṣa: Someone like the Kumaras... Were the Kumāras, before they became attracted to Viṣṇu, were they Māyāvādīs? Prabhupāda: Not Māyāvādīs. Trivikrama: Impersonalists. Prabhupāda: Impersonalists. Madhudviṣa: What is the difference between an impersonalist and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: Very little difference, but still, there is difference. Trivikrama: Māyāvādīs are offenders. Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs means they are speaking that "Everything is māyā; Kṛṣṇa is also māyā." And impersonalist means they are thinking that "To merge into the Brahman effulgence is better than to keep our personal identity." Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this Professor Dimmock was going to arrange a Vaiṣṇava conference at which we were going to attend. You yourself was going to be invited with many professors, but I received a report from one of the professors that when they tried to contact other professors, none of them wanted to come because they said, more or less, that we are like fanatics and we wouldn't actually discuss things in a philosophic way, that we would just use the conference to proselytize. So in this way, they're rejecting us from... Prabhupāda: What is the harm? Let them reject. Satsvarūpa: We don't need them. Prabhupāda: Our business will go on, and there will be many professor Dimmocks who will support us. And they are doing that. Satsvarūpa: We're not going to compromise to... Prabhupāda: No. Satsvarūpa: ...please them. Pañcadraviḍa: This Professor Dimmock, he still supported us? Satsvarūpa: Yes, he... [Break] *Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad*-gītā is read all over the world. So we can better talk on the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Our philosophy is we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without malinterpretation. So we want to defy everyone who is malinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā. So we have to follow the authorities. And Bhagavad-gītā is accepted as authority. Otherwise, why they're reading so widely all over the world Bhagavad-gītā? Why not come on this term? Why you catch up so many literature? If, on this basis, there is a conference, that will be profitable, that "If you accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority or one of the authorities, so you cannot misinterpret the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā." But the Westerners, they are very expert in misinterpreting even their own Bible. We say that if you interpret any śāstra, either Bible or Bhagavad-gītā, then it is no more śāstra. It is your play toy. By so-called your rascal vote, without any reason and rhythm and rhyme, you can do everything. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sometimes say that because Bhagavad*-gītā was originally in the Sanskrit language... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...and that because now it's been translated into the English language, there is necessary interpretation. Prabhupāda: No. Therefore we are giving the original verse, word to word meaning. Pañcadraviḍa: Some, some man argued that... Prabhupāda: Where is the interpretation necessary? Satsvarūpa: They say we interpret even in the word to word. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They claim that we interpret even in word to word. *Prabhupāda: But how do you do? Just like dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. Interpret in different way this word, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre? It cannot be interpreted. And how do you dare to say that "We can interpret word to word." In the beginning, you cannot do it. *Pañcadraviḍa: They clam, then, unless you speak Sanskrit, you have to interpret Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: No, that means if you are a nonsense, you better remain silent. Don't interpret. It is better not to talk than to talk nonsense. What is the meaning of that interpretation. If you do not know Sanskrit, stop speaking. Why do you make imagination? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, their claim is you have to read the *Gītā* in Sanskrit in order for it to be read as it is. *Prabhupāda: Now, now, in the very beginning it is said, dharma*-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. Now interpret. What is your interpretation, dharma-kṣetre? What is your interpretation, kuru-kṣetre? Come on, in the beginning. They cannot interpret anything. Santoṣa: In that verse, aparyāptam bhīmābhirakṣitam... Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Santoṣa: That verse, aparyāptaṁ bhīmābhirakṣitam. Prabhupāda: Yes? Santosa: They make so many interpretations of that word, aparyaptam. Prabhupāda: How they can...? Aparya... It is... The other party says that "Bhīma is not so expert fighter." He was speaking to Bhīṣmadeva that "You are so nice, expert commander. Bhīma is not so expert commander. Therefore even they have got some soldiers, they'll not be properly guided." This is the real meaning. How you can interpret? What is their interpretation? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are simply making excuses. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But in the end they'll have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- April 3, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...so eager to go into the fighting place... But still, they... That the... What this? Red Cross. They go in same spirit. Haṁsadūta: In Ireland, the devotees go there. The Catholics and the Protestants are always fighting. But everybody likes the devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: Both sides. Prabhupāda: Yes. Haṁsadūta: They have, they... As soon as they come on the scene, they begin to become jolly. Prabhupāda: So why don't you take advantage of this? Haṁsadūta: Yeah, we do... [break] Satsvarūpa: ...it's no longer logical. But by the same logic... *Prabhupāda: No, it is... That is the meaning of God. Everything comes from Him, but He's self*-sufficient. That is God. Brahmānanda: But they say that the chunk was always there. Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: They say the chunk was always there. Prabhupāda: No, chunk was not always there. Just like the earth was not always there. It was covered by water. A chunk is nothing but an earth, a piece of earth. So... So there was no chunk. Everything was covered with water. Wherefrom the chunk came? Wherefrom the water came? Then wherefrom the fire came? There are so many things. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think that we are limiting God by saying that He's a person, or that He has form. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They are thinking God a person like me, like himself. That is foolishness. They cannot conceive that a person can become so powerful than myself. That is the defect. A person has acintya-śakti, acintya-śakti, inconceivable power. Now, just like you are person. You cut your hair. It is growing. Do you know how it is growing? Haṁsadūta: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Even it is beyond your conception, what to speak of others. But it is growing. It is... If there is any scar or if the nail is broken some way or other, it will come out. But... You cannot manufacture it by conceiving. But it is coming out. That means within you there is an inconceivable power. So if you have got, an ordinary human being, so much inconceivable power, how much God has got inconceivable power. That is God. Haṁsadūta: In Los Angeles, you called it mystic power, that every living creature has some mystic power. Prabhupāda: Yes. Every living creature. Trivikrama: You gave the example of a lemon tree. Prabhupāda: Yes. The mystic power producing tons of citric acid. Trivikrama: Citric acid. *Prabhupāda: Yes, lemon juice. Acintya-śakti, inconceivable power. The cow, eating grass, producing milk*-this is inconceivable power. Can you produce milk from the grass? But how the cow is producing? Hmm? Answer this. You eat grass and produce milk. Give your wife grass and let her produce milk. [break] Your question is answered? Eh? Satsvarūpa: Well, it's answered, but they would say that our saying that... You said... I said, "Where did God come from?" You say that is the definition of God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: But then they can say... *Prabhupāda: Everything comes from God, but He's self-sufficient. That is God. That is the searching out God, that you search... You... Wherefrom you came? From your father. Then your father comes from his father, from his father. Go on, go on. When you reach one person*-he does not come from any father; *he is self*-sufficient-then He's God. That is the definition of... If God also comes like you, from a father, then how He is God? He's like you. That is the difference. Satsvarūpa: But they say that's not logically proved. *Prabhupāda: That is logical... Means you have no brain to understand. That's all. That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are caused, but He is cause of all causes. That is God. Otherwise, how you'll distinguish between you and God? You are caused, but He is not caused. He's causeless. If He becomes caused, then He becomes like you. Then how He becomes God? That is the distinction between God and ourself. In the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, in the beginning it is said, svarāt. Satsvarūpa: Independent. Prabhupāda: Yes. Janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "This Absolute Truth is that from which, who is the origin of everything, but He's svarāṭ." This is the first line of Bhāgavata. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ [SB 1.1.1]. Satsvarūpa: They don't like it because God doesn't come under their jurisdiction, then. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: They want... They want God to be under their jurisdiction. So... Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. You shall be under the jurisdiction of God. God is not under your jurisdiction. Then how He is God? Rāmeśvara: They can't understand how it is that matter... They accept that matter always existed. They can't understand our point... Prabhupāda: Matter existed...? Rāmeśvara: Always. That in the beg..., that eternally there is gas in the atmosphere, in the universe. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the gas came? Rāmeśvara: Well, they say... They believe that it always existed. Prabhupāda: Always existing. Rāmeśvara: Yes, that's their idea. Satsvarūpa: Just like we say God is svarāṭ, they say that the matter is svarāṭ. Prabhupāda: Yes, in... Not svarāṭ. We never find a gas is svarāṭ, matter is svarāṭ. They... Just this body. Has this body come out itself? Because the soul is there, the body has developed. Therefore the cause of this body is the soul. The body is not independent. And the soul goes away. Then body's no more independent. It cannot move. It becomes just like dust. "Dust thou art; *dust thou be*-est." [break] ...like this body is moving now, but it is not independent. It is dependent on the soul. The soul goes away; it does not move. So how it is independent? And everyone knows that because the soul takes shelter within the womb of the mother, the body develops. If the child comes out dead, it does not develop. Therefore matter is dependent on the soul, living being. Rāmeśvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, that it is always moving. Prabhupāda: Where is moving? This is moving? Rāmeśvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion. Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all, say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving? Viṣṇujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving. Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? Viṣṇujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it. Prabhupāda: Then you become blind. Then you can see. Devotee: But they'll say the whole world is moving, the whole cosmic manifestation is moving. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. But then how that is moving, we have to settle. But matter, as itself, does not move. Rāmeśvara: 'Cause they say that within the, within the earth... Prabhupāda: That is within. You have got very good sight within. But I am a layman. I want to see that it is moving. (laughter) You have got some imaginary eyes. You can see. Madhudviṣa: They say that's advancement. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: Advancement of science. Prabhupāda: Yes, to become blind is advancement, certainly. When this is... Who will say it is moving unless he's a fool? Nonsense. (laughter) Moving, that's all right. Everyone... The whole world is moving. That is another thing. But as it is, why, where it is moving? Rāmeśvara: They're talking about the atomic structure, that the atoms are moving. Prabhupāda: And therefore it is moving. Rāmeśvara: Within, the atoms, there is movement. Prabhupāda: Then here, today, this morning, you'll see it is lying there. Tomorrow you'll come. You'll see it is lying there. Where it is moving? What does it mean by moving? Rāmeśvara: Well, they say that when atoms... Prabhupāda: They say! You say what it is. Don't say "They say." You use your intelligence. If the foolish man says something, shall I have to accept it? You use your own intelligence. "They say." If they are authority, then we have got authority. If you do not accept my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Come to argument. "They say." Why we will accept "They say"? They... Why? Are they authority? Rāmeśvara: No. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of "They say"? You say. When you'll say "They say," I'll say "They say," (laughter) my authorities. My authorities. If you defy my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Then come to plain logic. Madhudviṣa: Well, you look at the earth, and you see it. It is stationary. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: Just like we look at the building over there. From a distance, it is stationary. But if we go inside, we can see there is so much movement. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: So similarly, you may walk by this earth every day and see it is stationary, but if you analyze it underneath a microscope, you will see that there is so much movement going on within. Prabhupāda: But that is due to air. That is due to air. Just like we can see so many atoms are moving in the hole from the wall, but that is due to air. So this is also moving. The whole thing is moving by air. Viṣṇujana: But not of itself. Prabhupāda: Not automatically. Viṣṇujana: Not of itself. Prabhupāda: Not automatically. You cannot say automatically. No, air is moving. Just like the, in the air, the cloud is moving. The cloud is not moving. The air, moving, and the cloud moving. Trivikrama: Anyway, the basic proposition is that they, they don't have, they don't want to accept God, so they don't have to be accountable for their activities. Prabhupāda: Eh? Trivikrama: So that they don't have to be accountable for their activities. *Prabhupāda: Certainly. And they are being accountable. If they become so dull*-headed, then God's power will make him a tree: "Stand here. Stand up here for three thousand years. That's all. You are so dull-headed that you have no sense, so become a tree so that even if you are cut, you cannot protest. You have no sense, senses." That is the punishment. "If you don't eat prasādam, then eat stool." This is the arrangement. So they are being punished. But they are so dull-headed, they cannot understand. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With their science, they've been able to build so many buildings and roads and bridges and so many things which they consider wonderful. Prabhupāda: And what you'll do with the buildings? You'll be kicked out. Your building will remain there. Your spoiling labor will remain there, but you will be kicked out. You cannot live there. Who is managing these affairs? "So you have constructed a building? All right, I kick you out. Get out!" Then what is the purpose of building? If you know that "I am constructing this high building, and tomorrow somebody will kick me out," then what is the use? Have you made it insured that you'll not be kicked out? Viṣṇujana: No. Prabhupāda: Then it is useless waste of time. Madhudviṣa: You can enjoy it while you are here, though. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is called foolishness, that "I am going to be kicked out tomorrow, and let me enjoy tonight." That's all. That is foolishness. Madhudviṣa: This is their only recourse 'cause they don't believe in anything after this life. Prabhupāda: Yes. They... That... "Don't believe" means, don't take knowledge means, foolishness. Yes. Just like you are walking. You don't believe that you are going to the temple, but simply walking. Is that very intelligent? We are going. We are going to some place. We know that. That is intelligent. And if I ask you, "Why you are walking?" "That I do not know." Is that very intelligent man? Satsvarūpa: Like animal. Prabhupāda: Animal, that's all. Animal also knows that "I'll have to go there." Without any aim, without any purpose, if they are working, they are fool number one, mūḍhāḥ. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is... That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Take to industry." Kṛṣṇa says, "Produce foodstuff." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu..., er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society. Rāmeśvara: They're too busy making money to grow their own food. *Prabhupāda: "So then pay more money. Come on. You have earned money and give me. I shall give you food. And whatever I shall ask, you have to pay." This simple thing, more demand-price is more. Then why do you gripe, "Oh, everything is price growing, price growing." Why it will not? If I have got food, and you have to purchase, and I have got so many customers, I must increase. That is economic theory: more demand-the price is increased. And then you say, "There are so many problems. We have to solve first." But you have created this problem, rascal. And you shall must suffer. You have infected some disease. Now you must suffer. It is like say, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The reason is that you have infected some quality of the modes of nature and you must suffer for that. How you can deny it? If you have infected some disease like cholera, smallpox, and when you are suffering, how you can blaim? You have infected. You must suffer. Nature's law is so strict that as soon as you infect a particular type of quality of nature-there are so many*-you must suffer for that, or so-called enjoy. There are two things, suffer and enjoy. So you must have to undergo the process. This is... Nature's process is so nice. As soon as you do something, there is reaction and you are bound up. Yajñārthe karma anyatra loko 'yaṁ karma bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9]. Bandhanaḥ means bound up. Immediately you become bound up. And still, you are thinking, "Independent." The nature's law is so strict. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But the argument is that "The cities are there, and now what can we do?" Prabhupāda: Hm ? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cities are already there. There are millions of people in the cities... *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are offering this place. Come here. Why do you not come here and live with us? Then this is... The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is... This is the movement, that you come here, live with us, and produce your food, produce your milk, be happy, healthy, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our movement. Therefore we are creating New Vrindaban and farm, and we are trying to purchase... This is our movement, that we give you sufficient food, shelter, health, philosophy, religion, character, everything, purity. Come here. Why don't you come? They come here on the weekdays, and then fly away, go away. You see? We are giving such nice room, but they will not live here. They will go to the hubble*-bubble of the city. They like to come here. Therefore they spend so much money for gas and come here. But because they are not accustomed, they go back again. Return ticket. From hell to heaven, and again hell (laughter) Return ticket-coming back to hell again, not going back to God. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said there was a man who read your Easy Journey, and he was very enthusiastic that he could go to other planets. *Prabhupāda: But you must come back. He said, "Oh, I am not coming back again?" "No." "No, no, then I don't want." Yes, that is the psychology. The Russians, when some aeronaut was flying high in the sky, he was seeing: "Where is my Moscow?" Yes, it was published. That is māyā. The... Another incidence happenned that when the jet was in danger, he was thinking of "How to come back home?" This is māyā. Cannot go. Even though you like to go, still, it will attract you again, back to hell. Otherwise, how people are living in*-what is called? That place where is ice? Haṁsadūta: Alaska. Brahmānanda: Greenland. Jagadisa: North Pole? Prabhupāda: What is the name of those people? Devotees: Eskimos. Prabhupāda: Eskimos. Is that very good living? Just see. They won't come here. This is māyā. This is māyā. Āvaraṇātmikā-śakti. They, he's living in hell but māyā is covering: "No, it is not hell; it is heaven." This is māyā. Similarly all of us, we are living in this universe, material universe. We are thinking "This is all good. What is the use of God and going back to home, back to Godhead?" They do not take it very seriously. Although we give all information that "You'll haven't, you haven't got to work there. You'll get everything. Your life is eternal and blissful, and full of knowledge," they are not interested. Plugged. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Plugged. Prabhupāda: Yes. Plugged ear, er, ears, yes. "You go on speaking, but I have plugged my ear." (laughter) Trivikrama: "Chant, chant, chant." Prabhupāda: Yes. "Can't, can't, can't." That's it. (laughter) This is going on. The best intelligence is that "We are hearing so much about the spiritual world; there is so much happiness. Why not try one life? Like cats and dogs, I have tried so many lives. Why not sacrifice one life? Where is the loss there?" But no, they are so many, fallen, they'll not accept. Satsvarūpa: One man wrote a book about our movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and he said one tragedy of this movement is that if a young boy or girl takes to this movement and later decides to try the material world again, he will have ruined his chances for a career, (laughter) and it'll be too late for him. Prabhupāda: Hm. Trivikrama: That's a fact. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Nehābhikrama*-nāśo 'sti... [Bg. 2.40]. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many millions of people, one may become interested about what is the perfection of life." They do not want. "And out of such millions of persons," yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3], "who was trying for perfection of life, out of many millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." māyā is so strong. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not for ordinary person. Most fortunate, bhāgyavān jīva... Guru*-kṛṣṇa kṛpaya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. All these living entities, wandering throughout the universe... Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite. If one gets the chance of guru and Kṛṣṇa, then he can understand. And if still one argues, then he's again misfortunate. Therefore Kṛṣṇa demands, "You rascal, don't argue! Surrender!" Sarva-dharmān parityaja mām... That is the way. He commands. Devotee: Actually, you were asking if there were any examples of explosions happenning without material cause, and I was just wondering if you could explain how volcanoes explode. Prabhupāda: Hm? That is God's desire, nature's way. Nature is behind this, and behind nature... Devotee: Through the demigods? Prabhupāda: No. Nature, the material nature, and... Just like in... Sometimes at night you have got, what is called, pollution, night pollution? Trivikrama: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why it is happenning? Why it is happenning? Why this eruption comes? Can you explain? Devotee: I don't know what night pollution is. Trivikrama: Passing semina in sleep. Devotee: Oh. Prabhupāda: Why it does happen? What is your explanation? Nobody can explain? Rāmeśvara: Desire in the heart, subtle desire. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is nature, just... Prabhupāda: No, no, nature... The body is made of material nature, and the eruption is coming. Why it is coming? Does it come in the dead body? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the cause? Paramahaṁsa: The soul, living entity. *Prabhupāda: Because the soul is there. Similarly, the Supersoul is there, and He's arranging everything. The volcano's eruption does not take automatically. When it is desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it takes place. Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10]. Why don't you read Bhagavad*-gītā. "Under My superintendence." When He knows that "Now this eruption is required," immediately there is... Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. He has got so many potencies. One potency works. That's all. Because the living soul is there, therefore the seminal discharge takes place. Similarly, because the supreme living is there, therefore all these things are happenning. Where is the difficulty to understand? Kṛṣṇa says, viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat: [Bg. 10.42] "The whole worldly affair is going on because I am there." Viṣṭabhya: "I have entered into it." Don't you read in the Bhagavad-gītā? Then? And we are reading that portion, how Karanavasayi Viṣṇu enters in the each universe. He's... Then He expands Himself as Kśīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. We are explaining that. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, viṣṭabhya. Viṣṭabhya means entering. *Brahmānanda: You have written that Mahā*-Viṣṇu has some attraction to the material world? *Prabhupāda: No, He has no attraction. You have got attraction. Therefore He creates. Mahā*-Viṣṇu knows, or Kṛṣṇa knows that "These rascals will have attraction for this material... All right, let Me arrange." He has no attraction. Why He'll have attraction? Brahmānanda: So one of the devotees said they read that in one of the books. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: There is one purport that says that Kṛṣṇa is different than Viṣṇu because He's not, He has nothing to do with the material world. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Brahmānanda: But Mahā*-Viṣṇu, He has some attraction, or...? *Prabhupāda: No attraction. He is duty... He is, what is called, duty*-bound, assigned by Kṛṣṇa, or He's not ordered. Kṛṣṇa expands in Mahā-Viṣṇu and takes charge of this affair. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: Before I was asking about the scientific theory that the atoms are always moving, and you said that the earth is not moving now. Prabhupāda: Hm? Rāmeśvara: You said that the... You pointed to a chunk and said that it is not moving. But they're... Prabhupāda: But if you..., then you are also moving. Everything is moving because you are on the earth. When the train moves, everything moves. But how it moves, train? That you have to search out. Train is not automatically moving. Some power, engine, is moving it. That is blind vision, that "Train is moving." How the train is moving? You have to see. That is childish. Train is not moving. The engine is moving the train. And how the engine is moving? The coal, fire, is moving. Then wherefrom the coal come? In this way, you have to search out. You'll find, ultimately, the supreme cause is Kṛṣṇa. Nothing is moving without Kṛṣṇa's indication. That is the explanation, Brahmānanda: Buses? Prabhupāda: Yes. In Darwin. Devotees: Oh, in that, that cyclone, cyclone... Prabhupāda: Yes. And whole city smashed. Rāmeśvara: They don't know how to search beyond the microscopic level, microscope level. They think that the atoms have their own energy. They don't know the process of searching... *Prabhupāda: The energy is: Kṛṣṇa is there. Aṇḍāntara*-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. The asura's business is to avoid Kṛṣṇa. That is their business. And our business is to establish everywhere Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between them and ourself. Rāmeśvara: There is one theory that even the atoms have intelligence because the way they combine together to form larger molecules... Prabhupāda: That means that is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. They do not see Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand the whole philosophy because you have to preach and you have to confront so many atheist rascals. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These scientists need gurus. Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists need guru. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They never even think of these things. *Prabhupāda: When they are captured and cornered, they say, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do that." Post*-dated check. "You take this check. In future it will be paid." Who will accept that check? Rāmeśvara: To that, they always say that in the past, man laughed at some scientific theories, and later they were proven... Prabhupāda: It is not scientific. It is all rascaldom. What you are giving, that is not science, that is rascaldom. Why shall I accept it is scientific? Because you have no full knowledge. What you are giving, it is simply rascaldom. Jaya. (Bengali) Indian: (Bengali) *Nalinī*-kānta: So we say that one should live very simply, produce his own food, and chant. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then avoid all problems. *Nalinī*-kānta: So if we are given charge of the society, we should dismantle all this industry, all these cities...? Prabhupāda: No. We're not going to. But we can manage how to do it. First of all give me. I'll say how to manage. (laughter) We'll not create any problem. We do not wish to destroy anything. *Nalinī*-kānta: Just like we have big printing press and incense factory. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Nalinī*-kānta: But it is all managed nicely. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Nalinī*-kānta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end) Morning Walk -- (World War III) -- April 4, 1975, Mäyäpur Rūpānuga: Intoxication. Prabhupāda: ? Hm? These are old. Rūpānuga: Technology. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: So many gadgets to... Prabhupāda: Anthropomorphis... What is called? Anthropology. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: University of Avidyā. Prabhupāda: Yes. (Chuckles) Right you are. Avidyāra bhore. Kota nidrā jāo māyā avidyāra bhore. Pañcadraviḍa: Psychiatrists. Prabhupāda: Yes. All Western adventure to keep people in darkness. And that is going on. Now it will be smashed by the next war. Next war will come very soon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (Surprised) Oh! Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next war...? Prabhupāda: Your country, America, is very much eager to kill these Communists. And the Communists are also very eager. So very soon there will be war. And perhaps India will be the greatest sufferer. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Greatest...? Devotees: Sufferer. Srutakirti: Sufferer. Prabhupāda: Because America is aiming to start the war from India. Devotee: Oh! Prabhupāda: Yes. Because India and Russia, they are... Brahmānanda: They are... Friendship. Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. If the war is started from India... Rūpānuga: So India will become... Prabhupāda: And the Russians are ready here already, I have heard, with soldiers and... Not soldiers. I mean to say. Haṁsadūta: Missiles. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also vigilant. Viṣṇujana: Will that help our preaching, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Preaching will be very nice after the war when both of them, especially Russia, will be finished. Rūpānuga: They want to make India the battleground? Paramahaṁsa: Also, Prabhupāda, Atreya Ṛṣi said that the Arabs are preparing for the war. They're buying billions and billions of dollars worth of missiles and jets and tanks from America. Prabhupāda: Yes, so they are being prepared. War will soon start. Viṣṇujana: The Arab men all go to America to be trained in the armed forces there. Prabhupāda: Hm? Viṣṇujana: In all the armed forces centers in America, they train the Arab nations to fight. Prabhupāda: Oh. Viṣṇujana: They let the young men come into the U.S.A. to learn how to use the missiles and everything. *Pañcadraviḍa: Recently, this Bhutto of Pakistan, he was very happy because they were talking about lifting a ten*-year holding on arms from the United States, and now, they say, Pakistan will soon get arms from America. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are getting. They are already getting. The Pakistan will start the war with India. And then everything will be... Devotees: Oh! Whew! Devotee: Pakistan will start a war... (devotees talking among themselves.) Pañcadraviḍa: They have started the war maybe eight times. Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hmm? No, we can go. Pañcadraviḍa: What will the devotees do while the war is going on? Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotees: Jaya! (laughter) Prabhupāda: You have got only business. Pañcadraviḍa: Will we stay in the cities or will...? Prabhupāda: We can stay anywhere. We have got our Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana. But the danger is the government will say that "All Americans go away." That is the danger. I am thinking of that position. What shall I do at that time? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Take Indian citizenship? Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indian citizenship? Prabhupāda: If you take, it is very nice. Then they will ask you to go to war. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will this war spread to many different countries and continents? Prabhupāda: The actual war will be between America and Russia. Rūpānuga: What about British devotees, British citizens? Would the British be asked to leave, British citizens? Commonwealth citizens? Prabhupāda: Britishers are now finished. They have no importance. Pañcadraviḍa: He means if British devotees came to India, would they be asked to leave. Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say... I am speaking of politics. Devotees are the same... Oh, British citizens...? They may... Rūpānuga: You say the Americans might have to leave. What about the British? Prabhupāda: But they, generally, during wartime... Viṣṇujana: Everyone. Prabhupāda: ...they ask all foreigners. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, I see. Jayapatāka: During the last war, the Christian Mission of Krishnanagar, they had many Italian priests also, but the government gave them permission to stay, although India was at war with Italians. Prabhupāda: In the missionary consideration, they can do that. Jayādvaita: What will be the position with the Chinese if the Russians and Americans fight? Prabhupāda: Well I am not a politician. (laughter) China does not war, not want war. They want to... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Develop. Prabhupāda: Construct. Rūpānuga: They're not ready. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not very much interested in war. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that this war will destroy the demonic civilization. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Does that mean that it'll destroy all the cities and all the industries? Prabhupāda: War means destruction of all cities. That is natural. You have got experience in Europe so many times. Haṁsadūta: Cities and industries. Prabhupāda: Eh? Haṁsadūta: Cities and industries. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main target. Haṁsadūta: Nobody's interested in a farm. [break] Jayādvaita: ...endeavor, pure devotees are automatically expert in politics, economics, everything. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: Without separate endeavor, a pure devotee is automatically expert in everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: Politics, economics. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: Sociology. *Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. If you know Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. That is the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa... In Bhagavad*-gītā, it is also said that "There will be no more anything to understand." In the Ninth Chapter? What is that verse? Can anyone say? Jayādvaita: The Fifteenth Chapter. Prabhupāda: Avaśiṣyate. Jñātavyam avaśiṣyate. You cannot...? Santoṣa: Yaj jñātvā... Prabhupāda: ...cannot recite, the whole verse? Santoṣa: Yaj jñātvā neha bhūyo 'nyaj. Prabhupāda: That is the second line. First line? Santoṣa: Sa evaṁ guhyatamaṁ vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ. Prabhupāda: Vakṣyāmy... Yes, that is the verse. Yaj jñātvā anyaj jñātavyam na avaśiṣyate. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is such a great science that if one becomes expert, then he knows everything. Haṁsadūta: So Prabhupāda, is there something we should do to prepare ourselves for this disaster? Prabhupāda: What? Haṁsadūta: This coming war. Prabhupāda: You should simply prepare for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Haṁsadūta: That's all? Prabhupāda: That's all. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, people sometimes argue that "God placed us in this world..." Prabhupāda: Hm? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People argue that "God has placed us in this world, and that He's left us in darkness, so therefore He's played a trick on us." What is our argument against this? Prabhupāda: You have come to this world of darkness, and Kṛṣṇa is trying to raise you again to the light. That is the fact. You have willingly come to this nonsense place. Kṛṣṇa is so kind that He comes Himself and tries to again get you out, deliver from this nonsense thing. This is real position. Tripurāri: They say that "God has put us here, but He's given us intelligence, so we're to figure it out ourselves." Prabhupāda: Eh? Tripurāri: That "God has put us here, and He's given us intelligence, so we're to figure it out ourselves." Prabhupāda: So therefore, you take intelligence from God, you rascal. Why do you keep yourself in darkness? Tripurāri: Well, they say that "God has given us the intelligence to figure it out on our own." *Prabhupāda: That is intelligence*-you surrender. You are surrendering to māyā, to your wife, to your dog, to your family, to your house, to your nation. Why not God? You rascal. You are surrendering to so many other things. Why not to God? Rūpānuga: Just like you told that Russian professor that he is surrendering to Lenin, but we are surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: But everyone has to surrender. Prabhupāda: Surrender, this, that is the only way. You cannot become independent. You have to surrender. Who is a man who has not surrendered? At least he finds out a dog and surrenders to him. (laughter) In your country there are so many people living with the dog. So surrender is the only business of you. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. (pause) So Acyutānanda cannot come? Viṣṇujana: He's lecturing in the temple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, someone asked a question the other day about the atom which I couldn't give the answer to. His question is that if we say that within the atom the living entity, the jīva, is present, and life symptoms means six symptoms of birth, growth... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Their life symptoms has not yet come. But there is. Jayādvaita: Potential. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His question was... It was sort of a dual question. At what time, or what...? Just like at the time of disintegration of this body, the living entity leaves this body and the body disintegrates, so does the atomic body also disintegrate when the living entity leaves it and moves to a higher body? *Prabhupāda: Atomic body? Atomic body means material body. Unless you are free from this material body, the atomic body will go on with you. That means unless you are mukta, the atomic body will go on. Mind, intelligence, ego*-they are also atomic, finer atomic body. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But within each atom the living entity is present? Prabhupāda: Yes. God is present; therefore living entity is present. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the living entity is present within the atom just as I am present within this body. When I leave this body, my body breaks apart. Prabhupāda: Yes, you leave this body, enter another body. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda: By nature's law. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And when I leave this body, the body breaks apart. Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When I leave this body, the body dis... Prabhupāda: The body is already atomic combination. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So it remains atomic combination. You leave the body. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It remains... Prabhupāda: You leave the house. That does not mean the house is finished. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right, I can understand that. Haṁsadūta: He's asking that if the soul leaves the atomic particle, then does the particle break apart. Isn't it? Prabhupāda: No, no. You have not left atomic particle. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but you, you're... I think you were saying that within the atom there's also a living entity. So when that living entity leaves the atomic particle does the particle break apart? Or doesn't it? I mean what...? *Prabhupāda: Just try to understand. From the śāstra, you understand that aṇḍāntara*-stham: "God lives within the atom." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And when the God is there, living entity's also there. This... This much you try to understand. Because God and living entity, they remain together, as two friends. God is trying to save this fallen friend. That is the information from Upaniṣad. So when God is there, the living entity is also there. Rūpānuga: So Paramātmā and jīvātmā are always together. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Can we say that the living entity is present within the atom by consciousness? Prabhupāda: Hm? No. Consciousness will gradually develop according to the bodily situation. Pañcadraviḍa: How does the jīva get out of the atom and take a gross body? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Pañcadraviḍa: How will that jīva..." Prabhupāda: (laughing) Body is combination of atoms. How he gets out of the atom. Body is nothing but combination of many atoms. Everything material is combination of many atoms. That's all. Pañcadraviḍa: The jīvas inside the atom, are they like impersonalists who are in the Brahman? Prabhupāda: That you consider. He has not developed his consciousness. Practically, it is like dead. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, if there was a war, a large*-scale war, I think that our farming projects... Prabhupāda: Hm? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that the various farm projects that we have would be very good because, as you said, the cities would be bombed, but the farms would not be disturbed. Prabhupāda: Yes. The farm project... Even some hundreds of years, it was so nice. Even there was war, they would not attack the farmers. Rather, they would ask, "Where the other party has gone?" So they will say: "Oh, we have seen some soldiers going this way." That's all. They were not affected. That was the principle. Farmers were not attacked, just like at the present moment, the law is the civilians are not attacked. The military target is attacked. That is the law. But they do all nonsense. Even at the present moment civilians are not attacked. Just like Kurukṣetra Battle. It was taken far away from the civilian inhabitation. Haṁsadūta: Some field. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is civilization. "Why these innocent civilians should be killed? Let us fight, military to military. That's all." That is honest fighting. We have to settle some things by fighting. So fighting may be, I mean to say, limited within the fighters, not with the civilians. Rāmeṣvara: In modern warfare it's... Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. But they, they are so rascals, they throw bomb anywhere. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially atom bomb. Prabhupāda: But one thing is that because civilians are also responsible for declaring war, because the parliament is the representation of the people... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karma. Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. [break] *Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi*-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win. Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number. Rāmeṣvara: But these modern wars are fought with missiles and bombs more than armies. Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, also, there were brahmāstra, fire, firearms, brahmāstra. [break] ...problems that we are facing, they were also in the past under different name, different form. *Nalinī*-kānta: [break] ...Communists win, that will not stop our preaching? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Nalinī*-kānta: They do not like to hear of God. Rāmeṣvara: You wrote that if the Communists are victorious they would destroy whatever is left of the culture. Prabhupāda: Yes. Victory for the Communists means the whole human culture is lost. Ajāta-śatru: Does it mean that they will also attack the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, they have already begun. They are not passing our temple in Bombay. *Nalinī*-kānta: If after the war the preaching will be still good, that means the Communists will not be victorious. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Nalinī*-kānta: The Americans will win? Prabhupāda: Honest people will take to religious way of life. The Communists becoming victorious means they are also ruined. Who is that saintly person, sitting under the tree? *Devotees: Tuṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...too much danger, you all come and sit down here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Devotees: Jaya. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jayādvaita: Then men will be eager to come join our India project. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go to Africa also. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Oh, anywhere we can go, so many places, yes. Pañcadraviḍa: Hong Kong also. Prabhupāda: Hong Kong? (laughter) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhavānanda Mahārāja can... Ajāta-śatru: Means then some devotees has to stay in Europe or in America. So... Prabhupāda: Yes, everything you stay. We have got place like this. Rūpānuga: Our farms are very nice because economically when everything is in chaos, we can still provide food for our men. Prabhupāda: Yes. Rūpānuga: And milk and butter. Pañcadraviḍa: Milk and butter. Santoṣa: In America, prabhu. [break] Rāmeṣvara: ...that if there is a war between Russia and America, there would be a nuclear war and they would pollute the whole atmosphere with radioactive particles which would kill everyone. Prabhupāda: It is already polluted. *Rāmeṣvara: They say that this radioactive fall*-out... Prabhupāda: The whole material world is polluted. Who will live here? A little, say, twenty years before, dying. After all, you have to die, twenty years after or twenty years before. So it is already polluted. That is humbugism. They will die at the end, but still they are trying to live. (kīrtana in background growing progressively louder as Prabhupāda approaches temple) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like they're creating their own... Prabhupāda: This is the difference between man of knowledge and without knowledge. A man of knowledge will think, "After all, I have to die. So what is the difficulty, dying a few days more or before?" That is knowledge. And those who are not in knowledge, they are afraid of death. Best business is before the death comes let us finish our Kṛṣṇa consciousness perfectly. That is wanted. Death will come. You cannot avoid it. Rāmeṣvara: They say that this radioactive fallout will pollute the air so that no crops can be grown. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You shall die without food. Be(cause) after all, the death. In Bengal, it is called: more bhera ghalne (?): "The most misfortunate thing is death." That will come. Therefore the best intelligence is how to avoid death. Rūpānuga: Become immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real intelligence, not to be bothered by these trifle temporary things that "I am dying twenty years before. If the situation was better, I would have lived more twenty years." What is this mentality? Devotee: Back to Godhead. Ajāta-śatru: Yes, we can go back to Godhead. (Prabhupāda enters temple, kīrtana very loud) (end) Room Conversation -- April 4, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: Still, due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, Ramakishna Mission is no more very important. [break] What is that? [break] This morning also. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): You said that we've been spending so many lifetimes suffering the birth, death, disease and old age. Why not just give this one lifetime, following these principles, these four principles, and then become immortal. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Our movement is not... [break] Prabhupāda: ...situation. The... Why America is after this Pakistan? This requires little intelligence. The America has no interest either in Pakistan or India, but both of them, being on the border of Russia, it will be convenient for them to fight with the Russians from these places. Devotee (1): Through Pakistan. Prabhupāda: Do you follow? You have seen Indian map, eh, Asian map? Have you got any? Devotee (1): Yes, India and Pakistan are right at the bottom of Russia. Prabhupāda: Yes. They want this place. Devotee (1): The Russians. Prabhupāda: Russ... No. Americans. Devotee (1): Americans. Prabhupāda: Americans want this place to fight with the Russians. So if American comes directly in India, that "We want to fight," then India would not agree. Therefore they're keeping with these foolish rascals, Pakistan. And they're insulting. They're... Not insulting. They're naturally enemy of... not to let them... The Vietnam and everything, Korea, all these things. Not to allow the communists to become very powerful. That is American political policy is going on. And the presidents may change, but the national policy cannot be changed. Therefore they want fighting between Pakistan and India. So Russia... Actually that happened. Russia will come to the help of India. That arrangement is already there with Indira Gandhi. Naturally they'll come to help Pakistan. And then between the big two. Devotee (1): That's why you said this morning that India will suffer more than any other country. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: The last time there was a war between Pakistan and India the American government put their whole fleet and aimed their guns at India. Prabhupāda: Yes. They wanted to help Pakistan. But when the Russian came, they took time. Otherwise, fighting would have begun at that time. Devotee (1): So it almost happened one time before. Prabhupāda: Maybe that Nixon thought: "If some settlement can be done, without fighting..." Therefore he went to Russia. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: Later on. He went to China also. Bhagavān: Yes. Prabhupāda: But they are uncompromising. The communists, they, they are staunch enemy of the capitalist. Their whole philosophy is against God and against capitalism. So if America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and fights, they have got strength plus God's blessing. They'll come out victorious. Fight is going on. We cannot stop. But if the American people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and fight with the communist, they'll come out victorious. Then the menace of communistic movement will stop. And we want that. We want that these demonic communists should be finished. The Russians, as people, they are not communists. They are not communists. A certain class. Just like in India, a certain class is communist. The mass of people is not communist. They cannot become communist. It is not possible. Devotee (1): It is not natural for the living being to be communist. Bhagavān: Atheistic communist. Prabhupāda: Atheistic communist. Devotee (1): It's not natural. Prabhupāda: They, they're not real communists. Real communist we are. Actually see. All people from all parts of the world, professing different religions, different path of life. Still they are joined. This is natural. Kṛṣṇa community. Devotee (1): So this war... You mentioned a couple of minutes ago that this war almost broke out once before when America aimed all of its weapons at India. So it could happen at any time. It could happen very shortly then. Prabhupāda: That war was also Russian instigated. This war, last war between Pakistan and India, was practically between India and Pakistan, uh, yes... Devotee (1): Russia. Prabhupāda: No. The Bangladesh, they were Bengalis. Although the whole Pakistan, including Bangladesh and the other part, West Pakistan, East Pakistan, Bangladesh... So actually, Bangladesh is bigger than West Pakistan. They should have taken the government, majority. But the West Pakistan, by force they were ruling. They are not majority. So after all, they are Bengalis, maybe Muslim. They're intelligent than these Punjabis. Punjabis, they have got bodily strength, not brain. So these Bengalis, in Mujjhamat Raman, that was his demands, that: "We are majority. Why they should govern us? We should govern over them." This is the movement. So, but they're already in power. So how to throw them out of power? So he negotiated in India, that: "You help us to separate from..." And India's interest is that Pakistan becomes weak by separation, that is India's interest. So India agreed to help them. How to help? They organized a false, er, soldiers. You know? What is called? Bahini. Mean a freedom soldier. They organized freedom soldier. And India consulted Russia. Russia was friendly, that: "We want to help Bangladesh." So they said: "Yes, you help. If there is fight, then we shall help you." This was the... So these bahini, sanan bahini, sandana bahini, or something like that, they organized, "freedom soldiers." The freedom soldier means Indian soldiers. They entered Bangladesh because East Bengal, West Bengal. And they started this freedom soldier. But this is Indian soldier. Pakistan could understand that, that where this Bangladesh will get so nice soldiers? It is Indian soldiers. So when the movement was increasing, then Pakistan was in a very precarious condition. So they wanted American help. The Americans also said: "Yes." So they got American planes, American... to crush down this Bangladesh. And the Bangladesh means Indian soldiers. So later on it was discovered. So Pakistan attacked directly India. That was to go on, increase. But when the Americans were helping, these Pakistani, the Russians also came. So it was going to be a, the same, Third World War, immediately. So Americans considered something, that: "Let us take some time." Therefore the war was stopped. Otherwise it was already started. That policy is going on. Devotee (1): There's been no change. Just... Prabhupāda: Therefore Indian government does not like you Americans. Devotee (1): Indian government. Yes. Prabhupāda: And they're making propaganda. They're thinking that the Americans, under the dress of religious people, the C.I.A., they have come to disrupt. And this is the position. Devotee (1): So everything is the same as it was then. It's just the war, the actual fighting has been postponed for some time. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Bhagavān: Do we have any danger that...? I mean we are building such important establishments in India. Do we have any danger...? Prabhupāda: There is no danger internationally. Suppose... Just like the Buddhists. They have got their all pilgrimages in India. Because Lord Buddha is Indian. He spread Buddhism all over the world. So all the Buddhist relics and pilgrimages are in India. Gaya Pradesh and other, Benares... So India government allow them free, freedom to come here as pilgrimage. So you are now Vaiṣṇava. Why they should not allow you to come to your pilgrimage in India, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthplace? You have adopted Lord Caitanya, Lord Kṛṣṇa's birthplace. Legally, they cannot. They should, rather, make arrangement. But, from political point of view, they're thinking that "These Americans have taken to this religious garb. Actually they are intending something political." That is the general impression. C.I.A. What can be done? Therefore I was stressing this point that you Americans, if you make your country strong, Kṛṣṇa conscious, that will be good for the whole world. Actually you are doing that, but they are misunderstanding, in a different way. They cannot believe that an Indian guru can control so many American young boys on religious prin... Because nobody could do that. Just like all other, Mahesha Yogi and... He, they might have some American followers, but they are not coming here, taking so active part. Devotee (1): Most of them, if they come here... Prabhupāda: But they haven't got any philosophy... Eh? Devotee (1): Most of the followers of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or these other gurus, if they come to India, it's just to go into the Himalayas and smoke some ganja... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: They are not dramatic like our movement. Our movement is very dramatic and obvious. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhagavān: And we're an obvious cultural movement, whereas they are a hobby. Prabhupāda: Hobby. That they can understand. So on account of this political situation, the government is not very favorable to our movement. But we have to counteract it by our behavior, by our propaganda. It is not difficult if you do it very nicely. We opened this college program, that foreigners should come here, then it will be solved. If it is recognized by the university and you come, you people come as students, then the whole situation will be solved. Devotee (1): Here in Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: Hm. (end) Morning Walk -- April 5, 1975, Mäyäpur *Prabhupāda: ...seeking the necessities of the body, but kāṣṭān, with great labor. This is civilization. Kāṣṭān karma. The ultimate end is sense gratification, which the dogs and hogs also enjoy without any hard labor, and they think that after working very, very hard, twenty*-four hours, and driving the motorcars in three hundred miles speed, this is civilization. The end is the same-sex, that's all, which the cats and dogs enjoy in the street. And they have made this civilization, you see. Working very hard, and enjoy the sex. Is it not? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: What else they are getting? Satsvarūpa: Well, they say that civilization is more than that. It's... Prabhupāda: What is that? Satsvarūpa: Well, culture... *Prabhupāda: What is that culture? Your culture is the same*-sex. As soon as there was no light, immediately there was pregnancy. That is the statistic record. Brahmānanda: Oh, in the blackout. Devotee: New York blackout. *Prabhupāda: Yes. "No business. Come on. Let us enjoy sex." That's all. This is their civilization. Yan-maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Most abominable sex life*-this is civilization. *Nalinī*-kānta: They say that in the human form of life we can ejoy sex life better than the cats and the dogs. Prabhupāda: That is imagination. They enjoy without any restriction, and you have to make so many arrangement. You require apartment, nice bed, nice this, so many. So where is the better facility? You have to work for it. They haven't got to work. They get in the streets sex life. Brahmānanda: But now, they're also saying that this is good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: To have sex in the street. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Brahmānanda: Without any rules. (?) Prabhupāda: They are coming to that point, the hippies. Openly they are having sex life, on the street, on the beach. [Break] Madhudviṣa: We may enjoy while we are here now. If we think about the future, then that means we are taking our mind off the present. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then close all these universities, school, colleges. Close. Madhudviṣa: Well, that's also for enjoyment at present time because we can get together and have social life. Prabhupāda: No, it is for future, not for present. The child does not want to go to school, but the father forces him to go for future. Jayādvaita: That's tangible, though. Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: That's tangible. You can see. If somebody gets a university education, he gets a job, this, that, but in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can't see how he's going back to Godhead. Prabhupāda: And besides that, why you are keeping money in the bank, do good bank balance? Madhudviṣa: Because it's giving interest. Prabhupāda: Yes. That means for future. Madhudviṣa: No, I can enjoy the interest in the present. Prabhupāda: No, you don't enjoy... That the future you may not be in difficulty; therefore... Why insurance? Why the insurance company? Trivikrama: Also, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can see the result immediately. You become more happy. Prabhupāda: No, they say there is no future. Then why you are paying insurance fees? There are so many insurance company. Everyone is thinking of future, consciously or unconsciously. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: After I die, my children will carry on for me. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: After I die my children... Prabhupāda: That is also future. "Your children" means future. You enjoy. Why do you care for your children? You enjoy. Madhudviṣa: Well, it's granted that we are all thinking about the future, but isn't it possible for us to take the best of what the material world has to offer and also make the best of what the spiritual world has to offer, simultaneously? Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: What is the necessity of renouncing everything? You can't be... *Prabhupāda: Not renouncing, not renouncing. Just like our (?) think of future, that is also for present benefit. Future, future... The best intelligence is that just like one is afraid of suffering in old age, future. So there is. That is not ignorance. That is future life. So karmīs are thinking future life should be very comfortable. They want to go to the heavenly planets. They therefore act very piously, perform yajñas. That is all future. So real problem is that we are going to get another body in future. So what kind of body we shall get? That is intelligence. Body you have to get. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So one should be very intelligent-"What kind of body I am going to get?" Brahmānanda: Why can't we have sense gratification and God also at the same time? *Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavad*-gītā, that aviruddho-kāmo 'smi. "Sense gratification which is not against religious principles, that sense gratification I am," Kṛṣṇa says. We do not stop sense gratification, but we want to regulate sense gratification like a gentleman, not like hogs and dogs. That is human civilization. Sense gratification like hogs and dogs, not required. Sense gratification... People are following that. Although they are so degraded, still, they have not sanctioned as yet to have openly sense gratification on the street like hogs and dogs. That is regulated. That's still going on. But because the civilization is gliding down to animalism, they don't want this restriction. That is the hippies' protest, that, "Why this convention required? Let us enjoy like hogs and dogs." That is advancement. Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them do that also. Prabhupāda: Eh? Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them to do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pañcadraviḍa: What shall we... Why should we enjoy sense gratification like gentlemen? Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: Why should a person... Prabhupāda: Why do you do it? That is the, already there. Why don't you have sense gratification on the street? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they're already having. People are already having. Prabhupāda: Not having very freely, not very freely. Brahmānanda: It's against the law. Prabhupāda: Ah, against the law. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, if I'm always worried about the future, how will anything get done now? If I'm always worried about the future, how will anything get done now? *Prabhupāda: No, we gave that you are not to think of future foolishly. Anyone who is going to school, it does not mean that he is not taking care of his body. The school*-going is future, but still he's taking care of his body. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...of survival of the fittest. If I have a lot of sense enjoyment, then that is God's will. Prabhupāda: But nobody is fit to survive. (laughs) That is the real problem. You are struggling for surviving, but you'll not survive. That is nature's law. Rāmeśvara: Well, they say that within this life... Prabhupāda: Because... There is. But these rascals, they do not know how to survive. If you have got death, then where is your question of surviving? Pañcadraviḍa: So why not eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow you die? Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. That, animals are also doing. You can do that. Pañcadraviḍa: But the animals are happy. Prabhupāda: But why do you say survival? The animals do not think of survival. Pañcadraviḍa: I didn't mention survival. He did. Prabhupāda: They are free. They are never worried about survival or death. Never. Pañcadraviḍa: So the animals are happy... Prabhupāda: Yes. But you... Pañcadraviḍa: But human beings are unhappy. Prabhupāda: So therefore they are becoming generally, gliding down to animal life. Pañcadraviḍa: So isn't that better? Prabhupāda: Yes, for you. (laughter) Pañcadraviḍa: If the animals are happy and the human beings are unhappy, why not live like an animal? Prabhupāda: So yes, they are coming to that, animal life. Then why do you call human civilization? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if I stop all these activities, then there will be no more pleasure. If I stop all these activities... Prabhupāda: No, pleasure, you do not know what is pleasure. You rascal, you do not know what is pleasure. Just like the hog. He's also enjoying pleasure, eating stool. So your pleasure is like that. You eat stool and enjoy life. That is your standard of pleasure. Madhudviṣa: But who...? We can say that because we're above the hogs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: But what do the hogs think? Prabhupāda: Hogs think like that. Madhudviṣa: They think they're enjoying. Prabhupāda: If you become hog, you will also think like that. Madhudviṣa: But let us say just from our human standpoint... Prabhupāda: Then the human standpoint is... If a hog eating stool, you hate it. Madhudviṣa: We hate it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: But he doesn't hate it. Prabhupāda: Therefore... Because he is hog. You become hog. You'll not hate it. Madhudviṣa: But what if I am human being? I am enjoying this material life... Prabhupāda: Then why do you hate that? Madhudviṣa: Well, I don't hate what I'm doing now, myself. Prabhupāda: No, if you are given a plate of stool, would you like to eat? Madhudviṣa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why? Why do you hate? Why do you hate? Madhudviṣa: But I'm not a hog now. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They eat the hog. Madhudviṣa: But I am not a hog. Prabhupāda: And therefore you hate. Madhudviṣa: I hate it because I'm not a hog. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: If I was a hog, I would like it. Prabhupāda: Yes. So become hog. Madhudviṣa: No, I don't want to become hog. Prabhupāda: Then you'll have to hate. Madhudviṣa: No, I want to stay as a human being and enjoy here. Prabhupāda: Then it is... (?) Then you'll hate. Madhudviṣa: But someone else has to hate it, not the person who is actually enjoying it. Prabhupāda: Who is enjoying stool? Human being? Jayādvaita: They may say that "The hog... It's all right if I become a hog. So it doesn't matter if I become a hog or a dog because I may hate the hog's enjoyment while I'm a human being. When I'm a hog, I'll also like it." Prabhupāda: So do that. Jayādvaita: So it's all right. *Prabhupāda: The nature will give you the chance. If you want to enjoy stool next life, it will be available.(?) You enjoy. That is nature's law-"If you like this, come on. Take it." Īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhutānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if He sees that "This rascal desires like this," immediately He orders to the material nature, "Give him a body like hog. He wants to enjoy." Brahmāyan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is already stated. If you want a hog's body, immediately it is ready. You can get a dog's body, hog's body. Similarly, if you want devotee's body, that will be offered also to you. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. As you desire, Kṛṣṇa is ready to give you. Brahmānanda: But if the standard is happiness, and the hog is happy and the devotee is happy, then what is the distinction? Prabhupāda: That distinction the hogs and dogs cannot make. That is for human beings. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What happens if a human being can't distinguish... *Prabhupāda: That is called māyā, that he cannot make any distinction. Both the same. That is māyā. Māyā*-mohitaḥ. Just like on the street, there it is signboard: "Keep to the left." The hogs and dogs cannot do it. But human beings can do. That is the distinction between hogs and dogs and human being. Human being is supposed to make distinction. And the hogs and dogs are supposed not to make any distinction. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sign: "No dogs allowed." Prabhupāda: Eh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The sign "No dogs allowed" is not meant for dog. Madhudviṣa: Someone would say that that example just means that the hog doesn't speak your language. Prabhupāda: Eh? Madhudviṣa: The hog doesn't speak your language, it doesn't mean that he doesn't discriminate... Prabhupāda: Therefore language, civilized language, is not meant for the dogs and hogs. Madhudviṣa: No, it's just different language. Prabhupāda: No different, not different language. I mean to say that rules and regulations, books, they are not meant for hogs and dogs. Even their own language, it is said, they'll not understand. Pañcadraviḍa: So you say that two kinds of people enjoy life, the paramahaṁsas and the great fools. So what's wrong with being a great fool? They're also enjoying. Prabhupāda: Yes. You become. That's nice. If you want to remain a great fool, there is no checking you. You can go on. Pañcadraviḍa: Well, then what, what is the check on fools? What is the check on fools? Prabhupāda: There is no check on fools. You can do anything. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we know that the animals don't know all of these great truths? Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How do we know that the animals don't know all of these truths? Prabhupāda: Because they cannot follow. If you call the dogs and hogs, "Please come here. There will be *Gītā* lecture," they'll not come. *Nalinī*-kānta: We have already had a hog's body. So we didn't like it. Otherwise, why would we change? *Prabhupāda: No. By the process of nature automatically evolves. That is evolution. They do not know. But nature giving him chance, this type of body, this, more intelligent, more intelligent, more intelligent... Then you come to the human form of body, very good intelligence. And if he does not utilize it, again he becomes a hogs and dog. Go round, merry*-go-round. Merry-go-round. If you don't take... You have got now. By evolution you have got this human form of body. If you do not utilize it properly, then again you become hog. So again, for millions' years. So... Rūpānuga: They say, "We don't remember. We don't remember being a hog, so what is the harm?" Prabhupāda: Eh? Rūpānuga: We don't remember being a hog, so... Prabhupāda: That is hoggism, that you do not remember. Therefore you are hog. Because you do not remember, therefore you are hog. That is the distinction. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did God create death in order to stop our enjoyment? Prabhupāda: What is that? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did God create death? Prabhupāda: No, therefore you are under the control of God. You understand it. So you cannot become free. Therefore death is there, ultimately. You are thinking you are free of the kingdom of God, or laws of God. "No, you are not free. You'll die and you'll accept another body and according to My decision." That is God. This is a question like "Why government created punishment? Why not enjoy ourself without any punishment?" It is a question like that. And that cannot be. It is not possible. That is the proof that there is God. Trivikrama: Death. Prabhupāda: Eh? Trivikrama: Death is the proof that there is God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: And the other part is that then there is another body. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: Death and then another body. *Prabhupāda: Another body, immediately. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. That is the tangible proof that there is God. You have to die and accept another body. Just like the proof of government is that you are acting irresponsibly, you must be arrested or be punished. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they say it is just a proof of nature, not a proof of God. *Prabhupāda: Yes, nature is instrumental, just like jail is instrument. But the proprietor of the jail, conductor of the jail, is government. Jail is not acting independently. By the government's direction. Similarly, the nature is working by the direction of God. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is stated. Nature is not independent. Just like the nature is that this lump of matter will lie down here, but if God desires, it can fly on the sky. That is God's will. Nature is not independent. Then it would have remained here. Just like Lord Rāmacandra collected stones, and it was floating. According to law of gravitation, how it can float? Brahmānanda: Well, they say that's just a story. Prabhupāda: Hm? Brahmānanda: They say that's... Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The planets are floating. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. How these planets are floating? That is also story? (laughter) Devotee: How long would the planets float if it was put in the hands of a scientist? Prabhupāda: Hm? Devotee: If they were in charge of enforcing the law of floating the planets... Prabhupāda: Let them do that. See. That was done by Hiraṇyākṣa. He brought down the planet, in the ocean, but Kṛṣṇa again rescued. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, and killed him. Prabhupāda: And killed him. Pañcadraviḍa: So in the *Gītā* verse it says that this body is a field of enjoyment. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Pañcadraviḍa: Thirteenth Chapter. Prabhupāda: What does it say? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The field of activities. Prabhupāda: No, he said, "field of enjoyment." He said. What is this nonsense? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was changing the *Gītā*. Prabhupāda: Preacher (?) Where it is taken? Pañcadraviḍa: Well, Kṛṣṇa says that... Prabhupāda: Where says? Why do you speak like nonsense, "This body is for enjoyment"? Pañcadraviḍa: No, field. Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: Kṛṣṇa says that the living entity is the enjoyer of the field and the body is the field. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Pañcadraviḍa: So the living entity can enjoy his desires in that field according to his past activities. Prabhupāda: No, it is not enjoyment. It is worker, just like this field is for working, and the farmer is working. That does not mean he's enjoying. He's working. This field is given for working. But this working does not mean that he's enjoying. And because this working, working on the field is not enjoyment, therefore nobody's coming. They are going to the factory. They are going to the factory. Had it been enjoyment, then they would have come. But no, they go to the factory. And they are prepared to purchase from the farmer at any cost to avoid this working. That is the difficulty at the present moment. If you are asked that "You work here," I don't think you'll agree. It is not enjoyment. Will you take a plow and do...? No. Why? If it is enjoyment, why not? Pañcadraviḍa: The work is too hard. Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. That's it. Pañcadraviḍa: So what I meant... This body is a field. Prabhupāda: Yes, body is field is... The example is given. Just like this field, to work with this body is not enjoyment. Everyone is suffering with body, so many people, always suffering threefold miseries. That is not enjoyment. It is enjoyment for the fools, rascals, who are covered by the illusory energy. Pañcadraviḍa: In the *Gītā* you use the term field. You use "the enjoyer of the field." Prabhupāda: That is his breathing period. (?) One who is suffering, where is enjoyment? Every field, every body, is given to the living entity because he wanted. Just like some of you want to become hog, so that field of activities, hog's body, will be given to you. Enjoy it. You want it, and Kṛṣṇa is there within your heart. He understands that you want it-"Take it." That's all. "Now enjoy. Become hog." Brahmānanda: One question, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Brahmānanda: If the planets, they have always been floating, but the stones of Lord Rāmacandra has put in the ocean, they are still not... Where are they? Prabhupāda: Eh? Brahmānanda: The stones that Rāmacandra put, they are not still floating. Prabhupāda: Floating, that is Rāmacandra's desire. Pañcadraviḍa: What happenned to the stones? Prabhupāda: That Rāmacandra knows. You go there. [break] Tripurāri: "...enjoyment comes from the fact that he thinks he's saving the world. He's out preaching. Your enjoyment is simply subtle sense gratification." Prabhupāda: Hm? Tripurāri: They say that our enjoyment is subtle sense gratification. We feel we're saving the world. Therefore we get some pleasure from that. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you say sense gratification, senses are there, and senses want satisfaction, but you can know the proper way of satisfaction. That we are teaching. We do not say that "Make your senses blunt." But you enjoy properly. That is stated, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattva hy asmad brahma*-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. You are wanting sense gratification, but it is being checked up on account of your diseased condition of life. Therefore you purify yourself. Then you enjoy senses perpetually. This is the injunction. We are not stopping sense gratification. But you are trying to gratify senses in your diseased condition. Just like if you are feverish, you cannot enjoy to eat a rasagullā. It will be not tasteful. So cure yourself and enjoy rasagullā. That is our program. Rāmeśvara: We are sometimes accused of being very puffed up because we are, they, we, we think that we can have a direct relationship with God, that God will speak to us. So we are accused of being very puffed up for thinking that we can have a direct relationship with God. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is natural for the fools because they cannot think of it, that one can talk with God. But God says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: [Bg. 4.9] "After giving up this body, the devotees come to Me." Then where, what you will do there? He'll talk or not talk? Rāmeśvara:: There he'll talk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? There is process, how to talk with God. But these rascals, they do not know. They think it is all imagination. They do not know. Rāmeśvara: But we are so insignificant. Why should God waste His time talking with us? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are sons. Although you are insignificant, you are God's sons. So He likes to talk with His sons. Just like a small child. Everyone knows that he cannot talk. Still, father tries to make him talking, to enjoy. Māyāpura*-candrodaya Temple is teaching all these fools and rascals how to talk with God. That is our mission. [break] Devotee: ...citizens in the state are punished by the government by being put into the prison house and that similarly, in this human form of life, if we are irresponsible, then we are punished by God by birth and death. So what about the man who is responsible for his family and executes his duty ni... Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Cats and dogs have also responsible for the family. What is credit for him? Devotee: Well, what actually is responsibility? *Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog also allows the nipple to be sucked by the cubs. That is family maintenance. So what credit do you get by family maintenance? Why do you specially claim any benefit by maintain...? That is being done by the cats and dogs. Do you think that the animals do not take care of their children? Then if you take, then what is the difference between him and yourself? You are also the cats and dogs. Your main business is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. If you forget that*-you remain cats and dogs-then you'll become again cats and dogs. Punar muṣiko bhava: "Again become a mouse." The mouse was given the chance to elevate gradually to a tiger, and when he became tiger, he wanted to devour the saintly person. And he said, "All right, again you become mouse." That is also... You are given the chance of self-realization. If you do not do it, then again become cats and dogs, maintain your family. Pañcadraviḍa: So if... (end) Morning Walk -- April 6, 1975, Mäyäpur *Prabhupāda: ...not within the Vedic culture. Vedic culture means this varṇāśrama*-dharma: four varṇas, four āśrama. And those who are lower than the śūdras, they are not in the Vedic culture. They are called caṇḍālas. Among these caṇḍālas, the mleccha, yavana, are also there. There are. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [SB 2.4.18]. So they are also caṇḍālas, fifth status. Fourth status, up to śūdra, and then all fifth status. So amongst the fifth status, there are all meat-eaters, without any restriction. And there are dog-eaters. So amongst them, the fifth status, one who eats dog, he is considered most abominable. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would a Vedic king try to prohibit such persons from eating... Prabhupāda: No. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...animals of any kind? Would a Vedic king try to prohibit the fifth*-class men from eating the animals? *Prabhupāda: No. Animals, you can eat if you like. But there was no slaughterhouse. If you like, you can kill your own animal and eat. That was open. But the state did not maintain any slaughterhouse. And the third*-class, fourth-class men, they would eat. So simply by saying that "You don't eat," they will not accept that. They're free, but the state would not maintain the slaughterhouse. At the present moment also, if the slaughterhouse are closed, then immediately seventy-five-percent meat-eating will be stopped. They maintain slaughterhouse. That is the most sinful activity. Pañcadraviḍa: That was Nehru's contribution? Prabhupāda: Eh? Pañcadraviḍa: Nehru started that slaughterhouse? *Prabhupāda: No, it is British contribution, the mlecchas. Before British period, even in Mohammedan period, there was no slaughterhouse, neither the public used to take cow's flesh. Still in Mohammedan country, Afghanistan, these places, they do not take cow's flesh. Lamb, goats. In the Vedic culture, the cow is recommended to be protected, not other animals. Other animals, the meat*-eaters can eat. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even the buffalo. Prabhupāda: Eh? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Buffalo. *Prabhupāda: Yes, buffalos. Cow is very important animal. Therefore it is recommended to protect it. From social benefit point of view, it is essential that cow should be protected so that you can get lots of milk preparations and keep your health very nice. So many nice preparations can be made from milk. In New Vrindaban, the other farmers, they come. They are surprised to see: "Oh, so many nice preparations!" They are appreciating. They do not know. It is the industrialist who has introduced this meat*-eating. Because they are attracting men from village to work in the factory, so they have made it a policy that "We shall eat cow's flesh. That's all. We don't require..." In Russia, practically, they eat only cow's flesh. They do not know anything else to eat. Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in your books you've stated that the position of the cow is as important as the position of the brāhmaṇa. *Prabhupāda: Hm ? Yes. Go*-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. We offer respect to Kṛṣṇa as the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas. Brahminical culture and preparation from milk makes a man perfect for spiritual understanding. Therefore they are two very important items, go-brāhmaṇa hitāya ca. In the society, if there is no brahminical culture and no cow protection, that is animal society. That is not human society. We are trying to bring the animal society to human society to fulfill the mission of human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prasādam distribution is very important? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We find that when people taste the Sunday Feast, it's so nice that they want to give up meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: Eh? *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: When people taste the Sunday Love Feast at the temple, it's so nice that they want to give up their meat*-eating. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At least, they express that sentiment. Prabhupāda: No, they'll do if they are continually eating. Jayādvaita: In New York so many people are coming, they want to start a Saturday feast also. Prabhupāda: Do it. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no harm. We want to distribute all the days prasādam. Yes, if possible. Give them all. *Nalinī*-kānta: We've heard in America that they are eating their own children. They perform abortion, and then they take that fetus and they... Brahmānanda: Yes. Bhagavān: Who is that? Brahmānanda: Some hippie cults. Pañcadraviḍa: Andy Warhol... Rāmeśvara: It's not widespread. Brahmānanda: Eh? Rāmeśvara: It is not widespread. *Nalinī*-kānta: We've seen in the newspaper that... Rāmeśvara: Hippies. *Prabhupāda: That will increase, this idea. They'll put forward some scientific method... (devotees laugh) Yes. Now for the abortion the so*-called scientists, they're explaining in a scientific way that "This is very good action." That I was talking with that Indian scientist. I gave him slaps: "Rascal, you are scientist." The government engages that "Write scientific book for killing your own child." And they'll accept: "Oh, it is scientific." That's all. Pañcadraviḍa: Now the scientists... Prabhupāda: Anything nonsense you do, that is scientific, artist. Pañcadraviḍa: Now the scientists have another plan for changing all the plastic to eatable foodstuffs. Prabhupāda: No. Pañcadraviḍa: There's something they put on the plastic so you can now eat it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the Germans, they extracted fat from stool. And that was used as butter. This is scientific. They'll have to eat stool even. They have eaten. In the last war, concentration camp, they have eaten their own stool. There was no food. So nature will punish them in that way. They'll eat everything. This godless civilization will lead people to such condition of life. Kadharya bhakṣaṇa kare, tara janma adho pate yaya. This life they will eat everything, all nonsense thing, and next life they become pig, cats, dogs. That's all. This will be. *Nalinī*-kānta: The scientists are saying that milk is the major cause for heart attack. Milk is a very harmful food. It causes heart attack. Prabhupāda: Just see. Milk is the miracle food, and they are condemning by a scientific process. Pañcadraviḍa: These Chinese people, they hate to drink milk. They like to take yogurt and butter and things, but they won't drink milk. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is yogurt as healthy as milk? Prabhupāda: No. Yogurt is healthy when you cannot digest properly. One who can digest, for him, milk is better. Pañcadraviḍa: (Heavy wind static) Even now the... Prabhupāda: Where? (end) Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mäyäpur Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Money is nothing but paper, but with the paper I can buy food, so then why is it that we say that money is nothing but paper? Prabhupāda: You belong to the cheaters' association. You are cheated, and you cheat others. So the whole world is the association of cheaters and cheated. Because you are cheated, you want to cheat others. Devotee: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say well, if there is no God, then it doesn't matter what I do. But there is God, and He knows what I am going to do at every moment, then it doesn't matter what I do either. He knows what I am going to do, so what does it matter? I can do anything. Prabhupāda: Yes, but why do you suffer? Why do you suffer? You do anything, that's all right, but why do you suffer? Devotee: Well, it's all God's plan. I suffer according to God's plan, I enjoy according to God's plan. Prabhupāda: Then there is God? Devotee: Yes, there may be God, but what does it matter what I do? He is controlling everything. What do I have to say? Prabhupāda: You are so senseless that you do not understand that you are suffering. That is required, just like cats and dogs, they are suffering, they cannot understand. Your position is like that. So our point is that you are suffering, but if you become obedient to God, you will not suffer, that is our propaganda. But you are so fool, rascal, that you do not know that you are suffering. And still you are denying. God is the master, so if you do something wrong, you must suffer. That you are suffering. And we are preaching, that don't do wrong, be very nice, you will not suffer. This is our propaganda. Devotee: But the devotees, they seem to be suffering too, from... Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot expect, if you are suffering from some disease, you cannot expect to be cured immediately. But one who is taking the medicine, he is intelligent. His sufferings will be gone. But these rascals, they will not take medicine even. They will continue to suffer. This is the position. Devotees actually do not suffer, but you see that he is suffering. Because you are suffering. Devotees do not suffer. Madhudviṣa: What happens to them? Prabhupāda: They enjoy. They enjoy. Hare Kṛṣṇa! How you are dancing always, Hare Kṛṣṇa, unless you are enjoying? Madhudviṣa: Sometimes I get sick stomach too. Prabhupāda: That's all right, because you have got this body. And after giving up this body, completely, blissful life. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. You are not going to get another body of suffering, that is your advantage. And these rascals, they are going to continue one body after another simply suffering. And for the devotees, although they do not suffer, it is just like, the fan is moving, you make the switch off. It is actually not moving, it is by the last force it is moving, but the switch is off. And it will stop, suffering. But you have no such chance, you will simply go on suffering, moving, moving, moving, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. You shall have to accept one body, suffer, and again give up this body. Another body suffer, because so long as you accept material body, this body or that body, you will have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will change bodies one after another, and continue to suffer threefold miseries. And devotees, actually they are not suffering, but even if you say they are suffering, so after giving up this body, they are no more accepting material body. They will remain in spiritual body. Satsvarūpa: A materialist would say that is our faith. Prabhupāda: It may be your faith also that you do not believe it. Your faith, wrong faith. And if we are accepting this faith, so if there is chance, so we are getting promotion. But you have no faith, you will continue to suffer. We are at least taking the chance, but you are so foolish, you are not taking the chances. So your suffering will continue. Jayapatāka: In India they say, well, we will take the chance when Kṛṣṇa wishes. Whenever He wishes; His will is everything, that whenever He makes me Kṛṣṇa conscious, then... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa said that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He wishes, why you don't take up His wish? Gargamuni: Because He is everything. Prabhupāda: He is everything; therefore ask Him. You do it. Gargamuni: I am nothing, He is everything. Prabhupāda: You can speak like rascal (?) (laughter) Why you are speaking? *Trivikrama: Double*-talk. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did God arrange for the pleasures of sense gratification if He wants us to go back to home, back to Godhead? *Prabhupāda: Yes, senses are meant for enjoyment. But if you want to enjoy your senses in diseased condition, that is your misfortune. You have to cure your disease, then you will enjoy. Just like the tongue, in diseased condition, even if you are given rasagullā, you will not taste it. Senses, we are not the Māyāvādīs, they finish the senses, make, become impersonal. That is not our program. We want to purify the senses. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat*-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Purīfy. The diseased man, he cannot see. He has got some glaucoma disease. Cure it, and he will see very nicely. That is our program. The Māyāvādī program is that if this eye is giving trouble, I cannot see, pluck it out. We are not doing that, we are trying to cure the disease and see. So senses should be cured, and then you will be able to enjoy. That is our program. We are not stopping sense enjoyment; we are trying to give you real sense enjoyment. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but I see that your devotees, they are working every day, doing so many things. I am also working. Why is it that... Prabhupāda: But you are working blindly,... just like monkey, he is busy, but he does no value. You work under our direction, then it will be of value. (Chants japa.) Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Senses are not to be abolished. They cannot be. It has to be purified. And then, when the senses are engaged in the service of the proprietor of the senses, then it will be perfect. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this body is temporary anyway, so aren't these senses temporary also? Prabhupāda: No. Senses are there. The dog has senses, you have got also senses. Body may change, the senses will continue. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But when the body is finally finished, aren't the senses also finished? Prabhupāda: No. Body will have finished when you are liberated. Otherwise, one after another, another body, that's all. Childhood body is finished, you have got another body. But in a childhood body there were senses, and still you have got senses. The body may change, but the senses will continue. Even in the small ant, for sense gratification, they gather as soon as there will be grain of sugar immediately. They have got the same senses. Just like you run after something according to your estimation very big, for them that one grain of sugar is very big. So they are also running after sense gratification. So anybody, viṣaya karuṇa sarva dakṣaya, whatever body you may get, the senses will be there, and you'll enjoy, according to your capacity. Yaśodānandana: If we take the position of an objective observer, and we look at the hog and we see that his standard of happiness is very low... *Prabhupāda: You become attracted when the hog enjoys senses without any discrimination. You become attracted: "Very nice. Why not get this facility?" That is your fault*-you become attracted. Whatever you see, you are so in diseased condition, you become attracted by that. That is your disease. Yaśodānandana: The point that I was trying to establish was that if a hog has a standard of happiness... Prabhupāda: You have got also. Yaśodānandana: ...which he is satisfied with, we also have a standard of happiness which we are satisfied with, as devotees. Could there be... Who is to say there is not a higher standard of happiness, higher than what we think is the ultimate happiness? See, we are thinking that to become liberated from this material body and go back to home is the highest happiness, and we are feeling this is our standard of happiness. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Because the happiness which you are enjoying these are not actually satisfying. You are not actually satisfied, therefore you want transfer of happiness from this field to that field. That means you are not actually happy. Otherwise, why these rascals they are enjoining the same vagina at home and why they go to see vagina in the theater? The vagina is there, but they think that to see vagina at home is not so good, but to see vagina on the stage is better. That is all. Disappointment. You'll see the same vagina, here and there. You'll go there by purchasing ticket. That is your misfortune. Trivikrama: But the devotee is ātmārāma. Prabhupāda: Yes. All these Paris big men, they go to see the vagina at night, purchasing ticket fifty dollars. All big, big men. In Paris there are so many clubs. Devotee: The Lido. Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee: Lido is the leading nightclub in Paris. Prabhupāda: Yes. (All start laughing.) Is it? Devotee: No, no, I have not been there. I don't know. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Well you know such clubs are there. Devotee: I know the clubs are there. I used to go. *Prabhupāda: That's said. And that is much. These rascals are chewing the chewed. One thing one has chewed, and throwing it, and again another person trying to chew it*-if there is any mellow, if there is any sweetness. This is going on. Just like our Indian leaders, they are going to chewing the chewed. They are seeing the effect of material civilization in the Western countries, and they are going to imitate it, thinking that they will be happy with that. They are giving up their own culture, and they are going to accept another culture which is already failed (?) andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Brahmānanda: Why is India not satisfied with its own culture? If the Westerners are now going after the spiritual culture... Prabhupāda: Because your forefathers came from England and taught them like this. That is the real fact. India was satisfied, but the Lord Macauley, they said no, that if you keep Indian as Indian, you'll never be able to rule lower down. Cultural conquerer. So they began to teach Indians England's work in India. "Whatever you have got, that is all nonsense. You learn from us." And the first product is Jawaharlal Nehru. This is the misfortune of foreign rule. Yaśodānandana: It would seem then that English culture is stronger than Indian culture then. Prabhupāda: Huh? Yaśodānandana: It seems that the English culture has conquered over the Indian culture then. Prabhupāda: No, Indian culture is still going on. It is not lost. Otherwise how it is going to your country and bringing you? (laughter) *Ravīndra*-svarūpa: A person might argue that the Indians weren't satisfied either; otherwise they wouldn't have taken up the English culture. So what's the difference? Prabhupāda: No. When you are standing on two boats you'll never be satisfied. It is very dangerous position, you know? Two boats, on the river, and if you put one leg here, one leg here, it is always troublesome. Either you give up this or give up that. Then your position will be safe. But India's position is like that. Two boats, he is standing, and he is troubled. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The English taught devotional service to England. The English were teaching devotional service to England. Prabhupāda: When? Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because the Indian people, they have such a feeling for bhakti and service. Everywhere in the world we go... Prabhupāda: But the Englishmen never took that line and when... Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did they teach God consciousness? Prabhupāda: When our godbrother Acyuta Mahārāja and Bon Mahārāja was sent, Lady Willingdon, he derided them that "You Indian people you come here..." [break] Rāmeśvara: ...say that Western civilization is very good for the world. Prabhupāda: Yes, but they cannot teach their own children. They are becoming hippies. That is the effect of their education. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: You have to judge by the fruits. *Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot teach your own people, and you are going to teach others. "Physician heal thyself." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greets someone.) You have failed to teach your own children, they are disappointed, and you are going to teach others. This is another cheating. It is not the question of... That is another fault-"our," "your." There is no question of "our," "your." Any culture, actually if it is culture, it is meant for the whole human society. Why do you say, "our," "your." We never say, "The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for Indians," or "for the Europeans." It is meant for everyone. That is our proposition. You have made this "our," "your," and bring another controversy. That is not the fact. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant both for the Indians and the Westerners. That is the fact. When Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], "You have to change your body," Kṛṣṇa never meant that it is meant for the Indians. It is meant for everyone. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is not meant that Indians only change and they become vanished, European. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is everyone. So try to understand this philosophy. Jayādvaita: The karmīs will say that materialistic culture is also meant for the whole world. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we admit. The materialistic culture, how to eat nicely, that is meant for everyone. Everyone wants to eat nicely, not that only Europeans want, not the Indians. That is material. To sleep nicely in a good apartment, that is wanted by both the Easterners and Westerners. So there is no discrimination. Sex life, that is meant for everyone. So as material life is also meant for everyone, similarly, spiritual life is also meant for everyone. Jayādvaita: So there are only two cultures. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayādvaita: The deva culture and asura culture. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So the human form of life, one should take advantage of the spiritual culture because in other forms of life it is not possible. This is the main thing. You become Indian or American, it doesn't matter. You are human being. Take to this culture and you will be happy. This is our mission. We want to make everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu: "Everyone be happy"*-with Kṛṣṇa. That is our mission. Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that the children in the West, in the materialistic culture, they become hippies. They'll say that at least they've had the choice, at least they were given... *Prabhupāda: Again, again you are bringing the same question, Eastern*-Western. Rāmeśvara: Materialistic. Prabhupāda: Materialistic means that is the ultimate end of materialistic life. Because they want new pleasure, new pleasure, new pleasure, so sometimes this, sometimes that... Sometimes they think the civilized way is better; *sometimes the uncivilized way is better. That's all, this way and that way. That is called punaḥ punaś ca... And then you'll take again to civilized way of... I think some of the hippies are taking now. Yes. Because the same example, stool, this side or that side, it is stool. So these materialistic persons, they are trying to change from this side to that side, but it is stool. That is the... That they do not know. They are accepting stool as something very sublime, and therefore they are trying to change the position, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Hitvā anyathā rūpam. This is anyathā rūpam, means a living being. Being spiritual, his business is spiritual, but he has accepted material as the platform of his happiness. That is his fault. So material thing, either this side or that side, it is material. Bhoga*-tyāga. So therefore he is not happy. And we are trying to give him spiritual platform for happiness. That is real happiness. But he is so much attached to the material happiness that he cannot believe that there can be any happiness beyond this range. That is his ignorance, mūḍha. Therefore we call them mūḍha, rascals. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "When you become spiritually realized, then prasannātmā, happiness." Otherwise it is not possible. Material thing, you take this side or that side-there is no question of happiness. When you become brahma-bhūtaḥ, spiritually realized, then there is happiness, prasannātmā, immediately. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu [Bg. 18.54]. That is the... Satsvarūpa: But should this be forced on people if they don't want it? Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: If a large section of the people don't want spiritual life, that's their... *Prabhupāda: No, you cannot force. That is not possible, because he has got independence. You cannot force. You can simply give him knowledge. Therefore to distribute knowledge is the best welfare activities, not this material so*-called happiness, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva and this... They have got that. That will not make them happy. If you give them knowledge, then they will be really benefited. Otherwise not. Brahmānanda: How do we give knowledge to the common masses of people? *Prabhupāda: Yes, by saṅkīrtana. By hearing, hearing, hearing-this is a medicinal process*-the heart will be cleansed and they will take up the knowledge. Now the heart is unclean, so he cannot take up. So this is the medicine. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra wherever possible, and whoever will hear, he will gradually become cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. And then bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... Then his material pangs will be over. This is the only medicine. Therefore chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Some way or other, let them have the chance of hearing, and then it will act as medicine. Even he does not will, you chant, you let him hear by force, and he will be cured. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes you say only a very small percentage can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: But yesterday morning in your lecture you were saying it can expand to ten thousand, million, or ten million. Prabhupāda: Yes, if you take the proper way it can be increased. Satsvarūpa: Is that just up to our preaching? *Prabhupāda: Yes. That will depend on your purified preaching activities. If you again become materially victimized, then you cannot do it. If you remain on the spiritual platform, if you try, then it will increase. Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanam. It will increase. As soon as there is any contemplation of sense gratification, then the spirit will be lost. Then instead of Christianity, it will be "Churchianity," officially going to the church, doing nothing, and gradually nobody will go. Rūpānuga: Like the Christians. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Christians... Now who are coming here, in so many temples? Nobody is coming. They have made it a business, "Oh, the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthday, you come here." And somebody will come, collect some money, and then there is no business*-go away. Jayādvaita: That requires our personal austerity. Prabhupāda: Hm? Jayādvaita: That requires our personally being austere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And what is austerity? It is very simple thing. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti*-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu. If you continue devotional service to Lord Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the effect of these austerities will become, janayaty āśu, very soon. Vairāgyam. Austerities means detachment to the material world. That is the result of austerity. So śāstra says janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Simply by executing devotional service to Vasudeva, that vairāgya, detachment, very soon arises. Come. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is very good engagement. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: It says in the Bhagavad-gītā that persons who at least attempt to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they again, at least they get human form of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So what is the position of tyāgīs, persons who are simply trying to renounce material life? Do they... Are they considered on the devotional path, or do they have to fall down into lower species of life? Prabhupāda: No. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Is that considered attempting to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, simply to give up, say, material sense enjoyment? Prabhupāda: No, these tyāgīs, Māyāvādīs, by their process they may attempt paraṁ padam, means Brahman effulgence. But Brahman effulgence being simply, what is called, eternity. But a living entity does not want simply eternal life, but he wants ānanda. Now, suppose if you are given, if God says that "You live here in this field eternally," would you like that? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: Why? Jayādvaita: It's boring. *Prabhupāda: If you alone live in this field eternally, that is not bliss. That is punishment. You see? So that is nature. We want ānanda, blissfulness. Therefore those who are... Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam [SB 10.2.32]. After severe austerities they rise up to the Brahmān effulgence, but on account of his original nature of ānanda, he cannot remain there. He again falls down. "Oh, it was better, family life. What is this nonsense? Eternally sit up in this field? What is this? Let me go to the town and work there." You see? That is your nature. Therefore these impersonalists who want to merge, they can merge, but there they cannot remain. They will again come. These so*-called sannyāsīs, they give up everything-brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā-Vivekananda or this Karpatri. Again they come to these material activities. Somebody takes social work, somebody takes political work. But if it is mithyā, if it is false, why...? [break] But they have... [break] Again come, open hospital, do political work. They cannot stick up. That is not possible. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: So they are not saved from the greatest danger of falling down... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: ...into the lower species of life. Prabhupāda: Yes. They will fall down. Śāstra says. They will fall down. The same example: if I ask you that "You sit down in this vacant land and you live eternally," you will leave this place: "No, no, I don't want this eternity. Let me go to Calcutta." (laughter) [break] ...perpetually. So that is wanted. The spiritual kingdom is Brahman effulgence, and there are Vaikuṇṭha planets. So if you take shelter of the Vaikuṇṭha planet, then you can stay. And if you take simply the impersonal Brahmān, sky, you cannot stay there. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa patanty adhaḥ. So without varieties, simply impersonal conception of Brahmān will not make you happy. *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: The descriptions of Goloka Vṛndāvana, that even the dust is personal... So we have experience of personal form. Even Kṛṣṇa's form is personal. How is the dust of Vṛndāvana personal? How is it individual living entity? Prabhupāda: If you want something from this dust, you cannot get it. That is material. But in Vṛndāvana, even from the dust if you want any, he will deliver immediately. Jayapatāka: Would you like to see the land that we have got here, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: Just take one moment. [break] Rāmeśvara: ...for enjoying, but if He's our friend... Prabhupāda: For enjoying and getting slaps also, both thing. You see? When the children enjoys, sometimes the father slaps also. Why? *Puṣṭa*-kṛṣṇa: Disobedience. They do something that is harmful to themselves or to others. Prabhupāda: So you can enjoy life, material life, as the father directs. So that is devotional service. Then you will enjoy. Otherwise you will get slapped. *Trivikrama: So*-called enjoyment. *Prabhupāda: Yes. If you manufacture your program of enjoyment, then you will be slapped. And if you enjoy according to the direction of the father, then you'll enjoy. This is the... Kṛṣṇa says, "Enjoy life. All right. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. Live peacefully. Always think of Me. Worship Me." That we have prescribed. Come here and think of Kṛṣṇa. And so that is enjoyment. So they don't want. They want liquor. They want illicit sex. They want meat. So therefore they must be slapped. Actually all this whole universe is made for your enjoyment, but enjoy it according to His direction. Then you will enjoy. That is the difference between demigod and demon. The demon wants to enjoy, manufacturing his own way of life. And the demigod, they enjoy better than the demons because under the direction of God. Jagadīśa: Why does Kṛṣṇa provide the living entities with these sinful pleasures? Prabhupāda: Simple pleasures? Jagadīśa: Sinful pleasures, such as becoming intoxicated... Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not provide. You create your sinful. Kṛṣṇa never says that "You eat meat," but you open slaughterhouse, so you suffer. Brahmānanda: But there is a pleasure, a certain pleasure derived from these sinful activities. Prabhupāda: What is that pleasure? (laughter) Brahmānanda: Well, some people like to... They get pleasure from intoxication, they get pleasure from... Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore they suffer aftereffect. That is ignorance, that immediately you get some sense pleasure, but the result is very bad. And that is sinful. Rāmeśvara: You wrote in the Fourth Canto that if we have too much sense pleasure when we are young, then we have corresponding disease when we are older. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama*-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins. [break] Jayapatāka: Everyone is sending their sons and daughters to the university and colleges, and they are getting degree, but they are not getting any jobs. *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya*-they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently. *Nalinī*-kānta: Punishment is not the best means of reformation. Sometimes if someone is sent to jail by the government, he'll simply be thinking, "Oh, when I can get out and depose these rascals?" So if someone is punished by God, he might become more angry towards God. Prabhupāda: But that does not mean God will stop punishing. Just like these animals. The stick is there. He may be angry, but stick is required. Otherwise you cannot work with him. "Hut!" You see? The stick is there in his hand. Otherwise he cannot get work. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. *Nalinī*-kānta: So eventually they will have to surrender. Prabhupāda: Without surrendering there is no other alternative, willingly or unwillingly. (end) Morning Walk -- April 8, 1975, Mäyäpur Jayādvaita: ...names of Kṛṣṇa as the spiritual master or the ācāryas have chanted them, but sometimes I'll hear that our devotees will be chanting Kṛṣṇa's name in different ways that I haven't heard, in kīrtana. Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say. *Jayādvaita: Just like sometimes we'll hear our men. They'll be chanting... Like yesterday I heard that someone was chanting, "Nitāi*-Gaura, Nitāi-Gaura, Nitāi-Nitāi-Gaura." Like that, I'll hear different mantras. Someone is chanting: "Rādhe, Rādhe, Rādhe, Rādhe," like that, at kīrtana. *Prabhupāda: Well, that is not done by the ācāryas. But there is no harm chanting "Rādhe." But sometimes it is degraded to make something new, invention. Therefore better to stick to "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and to "Śrī*-Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhupāda-Nityānanda." Otherwise... Just like the sahajiyās, they have invented: "Nitāi-Gaura Rādhe Śyāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma." These things will come gradually. But they are not approved. They are called chara kīrtana (?), means "concocted kīrtana." But there is no harm chanting "Rādhe, Nitāi-Gaura." So better stick to this Pañca-tattva, and mahā-mantra. Just like "Nitāi Gaura Rādhe Śyāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma." There is "Nitāi-Gaura, Rādhe Śyāma," but it is not approved. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We have to follow the mahājana. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find "Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Prabhu-Nityānanda, Śrī-Advaita Gadādhara...," never "Nitāi Gaura, Rādhe Śyāma." So why should we do that? Jayapatāka: The concocter of the "Nitāi Gaura Rādhe Śyāma," previously he was a follower of Bhaktisiddhānta, but then he was rejected, and then he started his own camp. Prabhupāda: No, yes, he was meeting Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So... What is called? Carana dāsa Bābājī. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes during ārati, many bona fide bhajanas are sung, but not much Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is that not a good tendency, that maybe just two or three minutes of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and many other bhajanas? *Prabhupāda: No. We should stick to Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śrī*-Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya Prabhu-Nityānanda, jīva jāgo jīva jāgo..., these are authorized. But Hare Kṛṣṇa is the mahā-mantra. What is sung by mahājana, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, that can be sung. [break] Jayapatāka: ...you say is back to Godhead. But when one is situated in pure, transcendental love of Kṛṣṇa, then that's, then wherever he may be, that's back to Godhead. Isn't it? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayapatāka: So then we should desire not to go back to Vaikuṇṭha but to go back to..., to be situated in our pure service to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Pure devotee does not aspire anything, simply to be engaged in loving service of the Lord, wherever it may be. It doesn't matter. [break] Jayādvaita: ...they know everything and they're perfect in everything. But sometimes, from our material viewpoint, we see some discrepancies. Just like we think that... Prabhupāda: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies. Jayādvaita: So we should think that we have the defect. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Ācārya is explained, bhakti*-saṁsanaḥ: "One who's preaching the cult of devotional service, he's ācārya." Then why should you find any discrepancy? Jayādvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the ācārya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is... Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Then... Jayādvaita: ...an imperfection. Prabhupāda: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Ācārya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is ācārya. Jayādvaita: And that is the perfection. Prabhupāda: That is the perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayādvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is? Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That's all. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's also a question of reciprocation. You have so many disciples, thousands, and one devotee was asking me yesterday, "How does... I want to please Śrīla Prabhupāda. How does he know my progress and my service because I'm..., when I'm so far away from him and if I don't write him?" Prabhupāda: So his representatives are there, the president, the GBC. They will see. Mādhavānanda: The representatives. Jayādvaita: The representative may be there, but what is my personal relationship? Prabhupāda: Hm? To obey your spiritual master. Whatever he has said, you follow strictly. Follow the regulative principles. Chant sixteen rounds. That's all. *Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, when Śrīla Vyāsadeva was lamenting after compiling so many Vedic literatures before compiling Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, he said to his spiritual master, Nārada Muni, that "You please enter within me and find out my deficiency. You are as good as the all*-pervading Supersoul." Prabhupāda: That is always the position of spiritual master, to find out the deficiency in the character of his disciple. *Devotee (1): He said that "You are as good as the all*-pervading Supersoul." *Prabhupāda: Yes. He... He pointed out the deficiency, that "You have not described so elaborately about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have touched only the social, religious, political point of views." That was his deficiency. So a disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila śāśana [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect*-he's to be chastised-then he's perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he's nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. [Break] ...always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he's a foolish. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one." Was He fool number one? He's God Himself. But that is the position. He should remain always a fool number one, ready to be chastised. Then he's perfect. In the moral instruction, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita gives this instruction, that lālane bahavo doṣas tadane bahavo guṇaḥ: "If you chastise your son or disciple, he'll improve, and if you say, 'Oh, you are all right,' then he'll degrade." Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayet na tu lalayet: "Therefore you always chastise your son and disciple. Never flat..." What is called? Jayādvaita: Flatter. Prabhupāda: No. *Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, in one purport in the Bhagavad*-gītā, you write that a disciple of a bona fide spiritual master is supposed to know everything. Prabhupāda: Yes, if he follows the spiritual master. Satsvarūpa: But how could he know...? What does that mean, "everything"? *Prabhupāda: Everything means whatever his guru knows, he should know, that much. Not like God, everything. Within his limit, that's all. If he tries to understand whatever his guru has said, that much is "everything." Otherwise, "everything" does not mean that we know everything, like God, like Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. If he regularly chants and follow the regulative principles, follows the orders of guru, then he knows everything. That's all. Not very much... Knows everything, then what is the use of reading books when he knows everything? [break] ...everything*-except Kṛṣṇa. Aham... Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo [Bg. 15.15]. He knows past, present, future, everything. You cannot expect anyone to know like Kṛṣṇa, everything. *Jayādvaita: Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad*-gītā that one who knows Him knows everything. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if he knows that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he knows everything. That's all. Not that he should know as Kṛṣṇa. If he... Yasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātam... If he accepts *Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead*, the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. That is finish. Jayādvaita: That knowledge itself is... Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayādvaita: That knowledge itself is complete. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: There may be material things he doesn't know, but they're useless. Prabhupāda: Eh? Satsvarūpa: If there's some material information that such a person doesn't know, that's not really knowledge anyway. Prabhupāda: I did not follow. Satsvarūpa: If he doesn't know how many people live in... *Jayādvaita: Just like Gaura*-kiśora could not write. So it appeared that he did not, there was something that he did not know, although he knew Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. Otherwise how Bhaktisiddhānta accepted him as guru? He knows Kṛṣṇa. That's all. *Nalinī*-kānta: Whatever the spiritual master says, that is also perfect? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he says nothing concocted. Whatever he says, he says from śāstra, and guru. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is there any instance when you were chastised by your spiritual master? Prabhupāda: Eh? Devotee (2): Is there any instance when you were chastised by your spiritual master? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Devotee (2): Can you tell us? Prabhupāda: I remember the moment was very valuable. Yes. Devotee (2): Can you tell us the story? Prabhupāda: Yes. I think I have said that. Satsvarūpa: When you were speaking to one man... Prabhupāda: Yes. He became very angry and chastised me. Jagajīvana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, was this during a lecture by Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta? Prabhupāda: Eh? Jagajīvana: Was this during a lecture? Prabhupāda: Yes. I was not... One of my old brother, he, he wanted to speak something. So I leaned my... I immediately became... (laughter) So he chastised him more than me. Devotee (2): When Lord Caitanya chastised someone more than Advaita Ācārya, Advaita felt that He had been neglected 'cause he had not received a greater chastisement. Prabhupāda: He wanted to be chastised, so Caitanya fulfilled His desire. (end) Morning Walk -- April 9, 1975, Mäyäpur Prabhupāda: ...think that I am going to die very soon. You know that Romaharṣaṇa? Satsvarūpa: Romaharṣaṇa? Prabhupāda: Eh? Romaharṣaṇa? Satsvarūpa: Who Balarāma killed? Prabhupāda: No, another. Lomarṣa, Lomarṣa Muni. He would die when all the hairs on the body will fall down. And each hair will fall down after the death of one Brahmā. So he was chanting on the sea, and Nārada Muni was passing: "Why don't you make a cottage?" "How long I shall live? What is the use of cottage?" He's also thinking: "I'll die." Satsvarūpa: There's also the story of that Mahārāja Khāṭvaṅga, who found out that he only had a minute to live. What did he do, that he...? You say that he surrendered at once. Prabhupāda: He surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Hmmm. Go this... Devotee: Prabhupāda, if we, if we increase our devotional activities, then we automatically become satisfied, and then detached from material life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (end) Conversation with Devotees -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: ...any language, you should submit, and you should feel that, that "I am worthless. My Guru Mahārāja has given this chance to serve Kṛṣṇa, to offer Kṛṣṇa... My Lord, I am worthless. I have no capacity to serve You. But on the order of my Guru Mahārāja, I am trying to serve You. Please do not take any offense. Accept whatever I can do. That's all. That is my request." That mantra is sufficient. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Kṛṣṇa never said that "One who offers Me with Sanskrit mantra." Yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Real thing is bhakti, feeling: "How to serve Kṛṣṇa? How to please Him?" That is wanted. Not to see that you are a very good scholar in speaking in Sanskrit or English or... That is not... Always feel that "I am worthless, but I have been, by the grace of my Guru Mahārāja, I have been given the chance. So kindly accept whatever little service I can give. I am offensive. So kindly excuse me." In this way be humble, meek, and offer your feeling, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Not that you have to show how you can speak in Sanskrit language. Guest (1) (Indian man): In another śloka, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror... Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (1): ...api sahiṣṇūna amāninā mānadena kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. Prabhupāda: (Hindi) So you, for the time being, engage. See that the Hindi publication is done very nice. Guest (2) (Indian man): What I thought was... [break] *Prabhupāda: Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī [Bg. 6.1]. Anāśritaḥ kar... Everyone is expecting some good result for his sense gratification. That is āśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ. He has taken the shelter of good result. But one who does not take shelter of the result of activities... It is my duty. Karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty. Doesn't matter what is the result. I must do it sincerely to my best capacity. Then I don't care for the result. Result is in Kṛṣṇa's hand." Karyam: "It is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja said it, so it is my duty. It doesn't matter whether it is successful or not successful. That depends on Kṛṣṇa." In this way, anyone, if he works, then he is a sannyāsī. Not the dress, but the attitude of working. Yes, that is sannyāsa. Karyam: "It is my duty." Sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca. He is yogi, first-class yogi. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna officially, he did not take sannyāsa. He was a gṛhastha, soldier. But when he took it very seriously, karyam-"Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Never mind I have to kill my relatives. I must do it"*-that is sannyāsa. First of all he argued with Kṛṣṇa that "This kind of fighting is not good, family killing...," and so on, so on, so on. He argued. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, when he understood that "It is my duty. Kṛṣṇa wants me to do it." Karyam. So in spite of his becoming a householder, a soldier, he's a sannyāsī. He took it-karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty." That is real sannyāsa. "Kṛṣṇa wants that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. So this is my karyam. This is my duty. And the direction is my spiritual master. So I must do it." This is sannyāsa. This is sannyāsa, sannyāsa mentality. But there is formality. That should... That may be accepted. Guest (3) (Indian man): That has got some psychological effect. *Prabhupāda: Ah. In India especially, people like. Sannyāsī may preach. Otherwise, the formula of sannyāsa is given*-karyam: "But this is my only duty. That's all. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be pushed. This is my only duty." He's sannyāsī. Because Kṛṣṇa personally comes, He demands... Sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Kṛṣṇa, He says, yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru haya: "Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he's guru." And what is the guru's business? Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Whomever you meet, you just try to impress upon him about the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." Sarva-dharmān parityaja... So in this way, if we take it up, very seriously-"This is my duty"-then you are a sannyāsī. That's all. Sa sannyāsī. Kṛṣṇa certifies, sa sannyāsī. People are not taking seriously about Kṛṣṇa's teaching. That is India's misfortune. They're bringing in so many competition of Kṛṣṇa. Is Kṛṣṇa... And "Kṛṣṇa... Rāmakrishna is as good as Kṛṣṇa." This rascaldom has killed. They have done the greatest disservice. Instead of Kṛṣṇa, they have brought one rascal, Ramakrishna. Bhāgavata: They have big maṭha in Bhuvaneśvara. Prabhupāda: Eh? Bhāgavata: In Bhuvaneśvara, they have big Ramakrishna maṭha. Vivekananda School, library, so much land, everything, very organized. Prabhupāda: So we can do that. You have to convince people. There is no question of making competition with them. But you, you can preach your own philosophy anywhere. Guest (3): With that happening with the people in Orissa... Prabhupāda: Hm? Guest (3): ...try to convince them: No, that is false and this is the way. *Prabhupāda: No, their Ramakrishna Mission allurement is that daridra*-nārāyaṇa-seva and hospital. That is their only allurement. They have no program. Nobody is attracted by their philosophy. And what philosophy they have got? Never mind. We are not concerned with them. Madhudviṣa: When we were in Māyāpur, I had the idea of... Prabhupāda: Aiye (Hindi) (Aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Guest (4) (Indian man): Purī Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: Purī Mahārāja? Oh? (Bengali) Oh. This Caitanya Mahāprabhu? (Sounds like looking at child's? drawing) Very good. Hang it here. Very good. Madhudviṣa: Get some ropes. Prabhupāda: No, get some rope. Just read. (end) Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: ...nānyat. Na anyat. So this is going on. And where is surrender? If you don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then what is the meaning of this surrender? This is going on. Our, one swamiji, is there in Bombay, Cinmayananda. He is a big speaker in Bhagavad*-gītā, and he has constructed temple-Śiva-liṅga, the genital of Lord Śiva. Just see. Mahāṁsa: He said he has translated... His interpretation of Kṛṣṇa is that this "Kṛṣṇa means black. Black is ignorance. So Kṛṣṇa is ignorance." Prabhupāda: Just see. *Guest (1) (Indian man): I think one of the best persons in Madras who is translating the Prita*-Gītā (?), isn't it? Cinmayananda Swami. Guest (2) (Indian man): Cinmayananda? Guest (1): Yes. I have heard it. Guest (2): Ramana Maharshi, (?) has... Guest (1): Ramana Maharshi was a great man. Prabhupāda: Rāmānuja bhāṣya is a fact. Guest (1): Ramana Maharshi? Prabhupāda: Ramana Maharshi? No, he did not. *Guest (1): The Ramana Maharshi is actually a... Read Bhagavad*-gītā. He requested you, "You should always read it." Prabhupāda: "Always read it," but he never preached about Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Eh? Prabhupāda: But he never preached about Kṛṣṇa. He may be always reading, but he did not know what is Kṛṣṇa. He never spoke that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord," never spoke. So what is the use of reading? Guest (1): Ramana Maharshi? *Prabhupāda: Ramana Maharshi, yes, I am speaking of Ramana Maharshi. He never preached about Kṛṣṇa's superexcellent position, never preached. This is going on. Everyone is taking advantage of Bhagavad*-gītā and he's preaching in his own way, foolish way. "Own way" means foolish way. This is going on. You cannot... Suppose you have got your philosophy, but you cannot take my book and preach your philosophy. If you have got philosophy, you write your philosophy. Why do you take advantage of my book and misinterpret? This is cheating. Because my book is very popular, you take advantage of my book and preach your own nonsense philosophy. This is going on. If you want to smoke ganja, you smoke in your own hand. Why you capture my hand and smoke? What is this? So the ganja-smelling will be in my hand, not in your hand. This is going on. Why do they take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and preach their nonsense philosophy? That is our protest. You preach your nonsense philosophy. We have no objection. But don't touch Bhagavad-gītā. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What is the... Do you think it is honesty that you want to preach something of your own philosophy and you take advantage of my book and mislead others? Is that very good, honest business? This is going on. This is going on, very dangerous position. In our country, and what to speak of other countries, all these swamis, yogis, and politicians, and scholars, they are doing like this. Very dangerous position. Why should you touch Bhagavad-gītā? You speak, you preach, your own philosophy. There are so many philosophies. But our only objection is that "Why should you preach your nonsense philosophy through Bhagavad-gītā?" Do you think it is right? Guest (1): It's not right. Prabhupāda: Eh? Guest (1): It's not right. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should understand. *Guest (2): ...not believe Kṛṣṇa and preaching Bhagavad*-gītā... *Guest (1): The thing is Ramana Maharshi did preach Bhagavad*-gītā. He had (inaudible) ...so he kept quiet. *Prabhupāda: Why should he kept quiet if he has read Bhagavad*-gītā? *Guest (3) (Indian man): No. But, say, it's like this. Man who has understood philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā probably will not attach much importance whether it's Kṛṣṇa, Śiva or somebody else, once he has reached the supreme state. Prabhupāda: No, if Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the supreme..." Guest (3): Yes, He says... *Prabhupāda: So if you read Bhagavad*-gītā, then you must accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Otherwise, what is the use of...? Guest (3): No, thing is... is that Kṛṣṇa is not supreme. Just because somebody doesn't pronounce the name of Kṛṣṇa, that doesn't mean that... *Prabhupāda: That means he does not accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme. Therefore he does not pronounce. That is the... If he understands that Kṛṣṇa is supreme, he should... Just like we have understood. We are chanting always, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... This is understanding, not, not... If you... Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha*-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. That is Kṛṣṇa. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām: [Bg. 9.14] "Always chanting about Me." Guest (3): Yeah, but, the thing is... *Prabhupāda: There is no "but." This is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. You have to accept it. Otherwise, you don't read Bhagavad*-gītā. That's all. Guest (3): The question is... *Prabhupāda: It is, it... There is no question of "but." Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. If you do not do that, then what is the use of your reading Bhagavad-gītā? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you do not follow these instructions of Kṛṣṇa, then where do you, why do you waste your time reading Bhagavad-gītā, and mislead others? That is our protest. All these misleaders... Perhaps, throughout the whole world, it is the first time*-we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. We are the only institution in the world that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are liking it. Before that, for the last two hundred years, so many swamis, yogis and..., they tried to preach Hindu philosophy, Vaiṣṇavism. Not a single person was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, not a single person. Now you see so many young men. Why? Why this difference? Because we did not present Bhagavad-gītā adulterated. Presented as it is, that's all. What is the use of preaching adulterated things? Everyone wants... That appeals as it is. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. We are preaching the same thing-"Always think of Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You remember Kṛṣṇa always." This is the simplest process. You see all these young boys. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they are becoming purified from the mode of our life. And these swamis and yogis preached so many years, not a single person was purified. They were drinking; *they were having sex. How they can be purified? And in India even, these things are going on, the land of Bhagavad*-gītā, the land of Kṛṣṇa. If you want to read Bhagavad-gītā, you take it. You follow it. Then everything will be done. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati. Api te su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. These things are there. You may be fallen, downtrodden, but if you take to Kṛṣṇa's instructions, then kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā. Very soon you'll become... Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. These things are there. And nobody is serious to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They'll talk all nonsense, but he'll not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is going on. So our task is very difficult, and especially all these prohibitive rules: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking or chewing pan. So who will accept this philosophy? It is very difficult. Nobody can. Unless he is very serious about Kṛṣṇa, nobody will take. They have not taken. These principles are our Indian principles. Striyas-suna-pana dyutaḥ yatra pāpas catur vidhaḥ. But who is taking this? Now they are becoming expert in intoxication, drinking wine. You see. This is India's position. In Europe, America, they do that because there was no such philosophy. But India... Here it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28]. That, nobody's interested. Everyone is doing all sorts of sinful activities. And Kṛṣṇa says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. He can understand Kṛṣṇa. But nobody is prepared to give up sinful activities. And how he'll understand Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa is not very easy to be understood. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. One who is siddha, perfect, yatatām api siddhānām... [Bg. 7.3]. Out of many millions of siddhas, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. This is... These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. But nobody cares for that. He lives in his own way, and he has become a big authority. That's all. This rascaldom is going on. Only these few European and American boys, they have taken my words seriously. And therefore, with their help, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is moving. Otherwise, where is Indian? You are young men. If I say, "You come and join us," you won't do it. But they have done it. Guest (3): I have got lot of... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone has got lot of responsibility. I know. But Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is Kṛṣṇa's demand. Everyone has got a lot of responsibility. Guest (3): I don't say responsibility. Prabhupāda: Then? Guest (3): I say they have got a lot of bhakti towards Kṛṣṇa because in the house, all of us are... Prabhupāda: Then preach Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. That is Kṛṣṇa's order. *Guest (3): Daily we celebrate that Rādhā*-kalyāṇa. *Prabhupāda: Why you play Rādhā*-kalyāṇa? Preach Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. Why do you go to Rādhā? First of all try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa in the Bhagavad-gītā has never said about Rādhā. That is very confidential. So why do you jump to Rādhā? Has Kṛṣṇa said anything about Rādhārāṇī in the Bhagavad-gītā? Guest (3): Even in the *Bhāgavatam* you don't see the... *Prabhupāda: No, Rādhā... There, Bhāgavata, there is. That is foolish proposition, "In the Bhāgavata there is no Rādhārāṇī." There is. But at least in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Kṛṣṇa has never said about His Vṛndāvana-līlā. No. That is very confidential. That is not for common man. The common man, first of all let him understand what is Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. That they do not understand. Even big, big leaders, politicians, scholars, they do not understand. Because they do not take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction, therefore they fail to understand. And what they'll understand about Rādhārāṇī? You... If you are my confidential friend, then I can take to my family. And if you are outsider, why should you expect to come into my family life? This is common sense. You do not understand Kṛṣṇa, and you want to understand Kṛṣṇa's dealings with Rādhārāṇī. That is very confidential. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmāt. You have to understand Kṛṣṇa, then His pleasure potency, hlādinī-śakti. The difficulty is that we do not want to become a regular student. Haphazardly, here and there, here and there, but I remain the same thing. It is a science. Jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad vijñāna-samanvitam. Tad vijñāna samanvitam. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānaṁ pravakṣyāmi anasūyave, yaj jñātvā na anyaj jñātavyam avaśiṣyate... [Bg. 7.2]. But the Vedas do not say like that. Vedas say, tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If you are serious to learn about that, tad vijñāna. Tad vijñānaṁ, gurum evābhigacchet. You must go to a bona fide guru who can teach you. Nobody is serious. That is the difficulty. Everyone is thinking, "I am free," although he is pulled by the ear by nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. You have done like this, come on, here, sit down. This is going on, prakṛti. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. The rascal, befooled by his false ego, he is thinking, "I am everything. I am independent." Those who are thinking like that, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṅkāra vimūḍhātmā. The false ego is bewildered and thinking, "What I am thinking is all right." No, you cannot think in your own way. Must think as Kṛṣṇa says, then you are right. Otherwise, you are thinking under the spell of māyā, that's all. Tribhir guṇamāyāir bhavair mohita, nā 'bhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛti sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. These things are there. Read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly, follow the rules and regulations, then your life will be successful. And so long you have got, this is also right, that is also right, then you will not do the right. You will all be misled. That's all. That is not (indistinct). What Kṛṣṇa says, that is right. That should be the (indistinct). Otherwise you will be misled. So we are trying to preach this philosophy in that way. Maybe, very small number, but ekaś candras tamo hanti na cittara sahasra. If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars twinkling. So that is our propaganda. If one man can understand what is Kṛṣṇa philosophy, then my preaching is successful, that's all. We don't want many millions of stars with no light. What is the use of millions of stars with no light? That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's advice, varam eka putra na chavur kasatan api (?). One son, if he is learned, that is sufficient. Na chavur kasatan api (?). What is the use of hundreds of sons, all fools and rascals? Ekaś candras tamo hanti na cittara sahasras. One moon is sufficient to illuminate. There is no need of millions of stars. Similarly, we are not after many millions of disciples. I want to see that one disciple has understood Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. That is success. That's all. Kṛṣṇa says, yatatām api siddhānāṁ [Bg. 7.3], kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ. So, first of all, to become siddha is very difficult job. And then, yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. There is still difficult job. So, Kṛṣṇa philosophy is little difficult to understand. If they are understanding so easily, that is not understanding. It is easy, it is easy, if you accept Kṛṣṇa's words, it is very easy. That is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, always think of Me. So where is the difficulty? You have seen Kṛṣṇa's picture, Kṛṣṇa's Deity, and if you think Kṛṣṇa, where is the difficulty? After all, we have to think something. So instead of something, why not think Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? But he does not take seriously. He has to think so many things, except Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. There is no difficulty to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not at all. But people will not take it, that is the difficulty. They will argue simply. Kūṭaka. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta, where is the argument against it? You are saying that, they may not think of Kṛṣṇa, they may not say about Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. This is argument, this is not philosophy. Philosophy is there, direct, you should do like this, that's all. You do it and get the results. You go to purchase something, the price is fixed, you pay the price and take it. Where is argument? If you are, if you serious about that thing, you may pay price and take it away. That is the advice of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā-mati kriyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. If you can purchase somewhere the thinking of Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvitā mati. That is, we have translated into "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." If you can purchase this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, somewhere, immediately purchase it. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti rasa-bhāvita-mati, kriyatām, just purchase, yadi kuto 'pi labhyate, if it is available somewhere. And if I have to purchase, then what price? Tatra laulyam ekaṁ mūlam. Na janma-koṭibhiḥ labhyate. If you want what is the price, he says the price is your eagerness. And that eagerness to obtain it, takes many millions of births. Why you want Kṛṣṇa? Just like the other day I said that if one has seen Kṛṣṇa, he will become mad after Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign. These boys are certified in their own country by the Christian priests that "These boys are our boys, they will never come into church, they are never interested about God, and now they are mad after God. What is this?" Because that is the price only to purchase Kṛṣṇa. To mad after Him. Where is Kṛṣṇa? He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Where You are? Where You are? Śrī-govardhana pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ. Are You under the valley of Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamunā? Where you are? Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure. That was their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply wondering where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa. Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato pure khedair mahā-vihvalau. Madlike, vihvalau. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-go... This is, this price one takes, then you can get Kṛṣṇa, you can understand Kṛṣṇa. It is not so cheap, that anyone can comment on Kṛṣṇa, whimsically, and he becomes a devotee. That is not possible. That is going on. I can interpret in my own way. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. (indistinct) Somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa is black, somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa as something else. Who says Kṛṣṇa is black? Who told me? Mahāṁsa: Cinmayananda. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means "black." Sapta nuraman pure sita kar baba. (?) One has studied all the Rāmāyaṇa, seven cantos, seven khandas, and he is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" Sītā is a feminine, and the Rāmāyaṇa expert is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" This is their education, they are becoming big lecturer on Bhagavad*-gītā, he has understood Kṛṣṇa means "black." And people are following him blindly. Big swamiji is speaking. Guest: Can we (indistinct). Mahāṁsa: Kṛṣṇa means, actually in Sanskrit, one of the meanings of the word Kṛṣṇa... Guest: That is... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is all*-attractive, that he will not explain. In the Brahma-saṁhitā, it is said, asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ [Bs. 5.30]. Asitām, sundaram. He is blackish, but He is so attractive, more attractive than many millions of Cupid. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you should commit offense like that? It is a great offense to decry Kṛṣṇa. Guest: (indistinct) ...describe Him as blackish or black. Prabhupāda: But why does he say Kṛṣṇa means black? Guest: Kṛṣṇa means black, (Hindi) Somebody questioned me: "What is Kṛṣṇa means?" Then apart from this, Sanskrit reply he gave: "Kṛṣṇa means black also." *Prabhupāda: So why did he not say Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive? Guest: As far as Kṛṣṇa's features are concerned, we know it is (indistinct) black. (indistinct) *Mahāṁsa: The last time we had come here, I had come to just see on the first day what he says. So on the first day he said that now we'll have a gītā*-jñāna yajña, and he said we will take the ślokas which are suitable and which ślokas are not suitable... Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁsa: ...we'll reject those ślokas. Prabhupāda: Not suitable. Mahāṁsa: I heard that with my own ears. He said... *Guest: From Bhagavad*-gītā? Mahāṁsa: Yes. He said "We will take the ślokas which are suitable and which are not suitable, we'll reject those ślokas." *Prabhupāda: Just see. He is to judge which is suitable, which is not suitable. Just see, this philosophy. Cinmayananda or any ordinary person, he has to judge which śloka is suitable, which is not suitable. That means he is more than Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has spoken something unsuitable*-which he can judge. This is the position. Guest: I believe that in another sense whatever is written, we should take the sweet from the (?)... Prabhupāda: There is no sweets... Guest: ...and if there are some... *Mahāṁsa: Everything is sweet in Bhagavad*-gītā. Guest: ...the other part is there. (indistinct) ...that other part, that meaning be... Prabhupāda: No. Other part, there is no other part. There is only one part. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that Guest: (indistinct) Don't attack the part of death. (indistinct) Mahāṁsa: He was going to (indistinct) ślokas. He said he will not accept ślokas which are, we can accept, those which we cannot accept we will... Prabhupāda: Reject. Mahāṁsa: We will go for the next one. Prabhupāda: Just see. Mahāṁsa: That was the reference. He was saying, "Now from today onwards, I will start on this chapter and we will go on to these ślokas." He was referring to these ślokas. *Prabhupāda: Now Kṛṣṇa has written Bhagavad*-gītā, not written, has spoken Bhagavad-gītā, and He is speaking to me and I have to judge which is suitable? This is, is that my position? Guest: Perhaps what happens here... Prabhupāda: No perhaps. He says that "What is suitable, we accept. And not suitable reject." Now who will judge which is suitable and which is not suitable? That is the question. Guest: Here (indistinct) comes just for one day or ten days that... Prabhupāda: May no, what is your answer to this? Guest: That is what I was answering. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: What he does, each day he takes one śloka, and he just goes on giving discourse for an hour or what... (indistinct) ...he just has his discussion, "Now this śloka, we will take and we will discuss." Prabhupāda: No, I have read some of his... Guest: ...because his *Gītā* is there, all ślokas (indistinct) Prabhupāda: He has said somewhere, I don't particularly know, "The Indian priests(?) think like that." *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In his Gītā, in the verse that describes how to meditate on the formless, he states that although it says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that it is very difficult to understand the formless aspect, he says this was true five thousand years ago but now it is no longer true. Prabhupāda: Just see. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have read in his *Gītā*. Guest: Five thousand years ago it must have been true but now... *Prabhupāda: No, no. There is the verse, kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktā*-sakta-cetasām [Bg. 12.5]. So in explaining that śloka he said, "It was painful five thousand years ago, but it is not now painful. It has become easy." That means the version of Gītā can be changed after five thousand years. Then what is the importance of speaking by Kṛṣṇa if it is changeable like material things? then what is the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Is it changeable? Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Guest: It is the interpretation of the... Prabhupāda: Why interpretation? Guest: (indistinct) *Prabhupāda: Interpretation, first thing is that: why interpretation? If the meaning is straight, just like in the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ [Bg. 1.1]. And someone is interpreting dharma-kṣetre means this body. Why this interpretation? Eh? The dharma-kṣetra, kuru-kṣetra is still existing, the station is there. People are going as dharmakṣetra. Kurukṣetra (indistinct) ācāret... This is the Vedic instruction that everyone should go to Kurukṣetra and perform ritualistic duties, that is being done and it is written dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1], why interpretation? Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You are more than Kṛṣṇa? You are so, you have got the audacity to speak more than Kṛṣṇa? Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: Interpretation... (Hindi) Guest: (Hindi) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to go. Prabhupāda: We are discussing the same thing, we go or not go. (laughter) Guest: People are waiting. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You are a young man therefore I am requesting you: don't be misled by these blind leaders. Take Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and you'll be happy. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupāda: The meaning is clear, very clear. There is no question of interpretation. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975, Hyderabad *Prabhupāda: ...take the credit. And what is your credit? It is already there for millions of years. Why you are anxious to produce this? Without your help it is being produced. So why you spending our hard*-earned money and cheating us? You are cheater. You should be punished. These things are already going on. For you there is no scarcity of life. Then why you are spending our tax to show your talent? What is your talent? You are simply cheating us-"We shall do it..." You do or do not, the things are already there. Why you are taking our money to make research? You are cheating us. You should be punished. You will be punished. Even the state does not punish, you'll be punished by the Supreme Lord because you are cheating. So you can cheat us, but you cannot cheat God. Regular punishment will be there. Millions of years it has been going on, and I want to tell (?) you, just tell (?) you (indistinct). The same example-millions of dogs are barking, and this man has learned how to bark. He is selling tickets. You see? You are driving away barking dog, and because this rascal has learned how to bark, you have to pay for it. What do you say? Yaśodānandana: So they would say, "Well, we do not claim any credit, but, similarly, you cannot give God credit, because it is going on as a biochemical reaction." Prabhupāda: Why not? That is your rascaldom. You cannot produce it. Why do you say like that? You rascal, you produce by biochemical combination. That is your rascaldom. That is not science. You are talking like a child. That's all. Credit must be given to God. He's already doing it very systematically. Why shall I... I am not such a fool that I have to give credit to you. Yaśodānandana: No, that is not the question, to give credit to me. But just because you can't... Prabhupāda: Anyone who is producing, either or God or somebody, or somebody is doing that. I must see, (indistinct) ...not to you. You may not accept God, but somebody is doing that. As you are trying to do it, similarly, somebody else is already there. Therefore he should get the credit. Why you are claiming to get the credit? That is not right. Anybody... Just like you are somebody, you are trying to take all the credit. So similarly, somebody is already doing. So he should get the credit. Yaśodānandana: Their objection is to "he." Prabhupāda: But why you are "he"? Yaśodānandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting. Prabhupāda: Attempting... You are "he"? You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person. Yaśodānandana: Maybe because I am person... Prabhupāda: That is not maybe. Maybe... As soon as you say "maybe" then you'll be slapped. No knowledge. It is not a question of "maybe." It must be factual. Is that all right? Yaśodānandana: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard*-earned money, taxes?" Better follow us. We are giving all credit to the person who has already..., going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. That person's (indistinct) is so nice... nobody's going to cut the (indistinct) ...of the street. But annually, they are already being changed. The whole (indistinct), thrown away. Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime. Brahmānanda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot... Prabhupāda: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can you see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see. Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor. Prabhupāda: Ha? Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor. Prabhupāda: Then how he claims to..., claims others' faith upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good as scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor why do you claim people should have faith in you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer? Nitāi: Sometimes they say that if we can control, if we can produce... Prabhupāda: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal. You are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that death will not be forced upon me. So where is the history that man has controlled nature? Nitāi: They say that now we are controlling atomic energy and now we are controlling... *Prabhupāda: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is that control? Death is already there, and you're utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy*-you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are learning how to become deathless. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśodānandana: They will argue... Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific (indistinct). Therefore our conclusion is "You are Fool No. 1." Devotee: We may not be able to actually stop death, but while we're here we can at least prolong our lifetime and... Prabhupāda: That also you cannot do. Where is the proof? Devotee: Well, at the atomic research plants... Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another foolishness, I say. You have not done it. You are simply expecting. Hope against hope. That's all. Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths... Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners. Better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are eliminating one by one all the diseases. Prabhupāda: No, that you have not done. No disease... You have increased diseases. You have stopped one disease and increased another. Not stopped! But you have increased another disease. Devotee: We have to learn though how to prevent all these diseases. Prabhupāda: Therefore you are fool. You have to learn. That means you have to learn, means you are fool. Yaśodānandana: But we are learning. Prabhupāda: Don't assert it, that you have done it already, you shall do it... As soon as you say we have to learn, that means you are fools. And while you are student, why you are claiming all these perfections? You have to learn. That you have to learn from us. Brahmānanda: Actually, when I was in Germany, there was evidence of how the scientists increased disease. They invented some vaccine to counteract influenza, and they injected all of Germany with this vaccine. But what happened is sometimes the body builds up resistance to these vaccines and produces another germ. So, as a result, another type of influenza was created, which was far more worse than the previous. It made people get fever for four and five days straight, 105 degrees. Prabhupāda: That is the way of... They have discovered this streptomycin, for tuberculosis, that if one takes too many injections of streptomycin, then it does not act. Devotee: He becomes immune. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: So as a result of the vaccine they created a worse type of influenza, and they have nothing to counteract that worse type. So now they have to invent another type. *Prabhupāda: These rascals give trouble to the people, especially in India. They are not after the vaccine. They will catch people and force them. Just see. This is going on. (indistinct) ...others are avoiding, they are going, going this way, that way. Sometimes they fall, they do not know, and capture (indistinct) These rascals are creating havoc. Only to kick them on their face with shoes. That's all. The so*-called scientists and biologists and... They do not know anything. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying that all the scientists are fools and rascals but they may challenge, "How has your knowledge benefited you?" *Prabhupāda: Your knowledge has not benefited you. Our taking your so*-called science has benefited you because you are using it for Kṛṣṇa. You have worked so hard, so result is going to Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are making the best... (indistinct) ...there is chair but we don't care for the chair. We can sit down. But if it is available we don't reject it. Therefore (indistinct) ...you have made a chair and (indistinct) ...Not that I require your chair, without your chair I will, shall die. That is not my policy. You rascal, you have done something, I'm using it for your benefit. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of... Prabhupāda: Yes. But I'm trying because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone. Prabhupāda: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your students also suffer from diseases and all... *Prabhupāda: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad*-gītā, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So your difference is that you tolerate, whereas the scientists don't. Prabhupāda: Because we know that there is no cure. You do not know. You are trying to cure. That is the difference between you and me. We know so long I have got this body, I'll have to suffer. So we do not stop our business. We tolerate and do our business. That's all. But you have no business. You are simply trying, hope against hope. But it will never be fulfilled. Just like birds, bees, they do not know science. But so long they have got this body, they are also sometimes diseased. But they have no science, how they are cured? The same thing, just like this tree, they have no scissors, so how their leaves are being trimmed, falling down, (indistinct). We have discovered scissors, or clippers, but you have no clippers. How their hairs, or their leaves are being cut? Devotee: Prabhupāda, according to archeological findings primitive man, before, when they would get some disease they would just die. And now modern science has developed so nicely... Prabhupāda: That is there. And who is not dying now? Devotee: Well, but... Prabhupāda: Well, well, well... Devotee: ...they died at thirty, forty years old. Now we're dying at a hundred years old. Prabhupāda: So what is the difference? You die after forty years or hundred years? These trees dies after thousands years. Does it mean the trees are better than you? (Devotees laugh) If one dies after one thousand years, does it mean his life is successful? Devotee: But all of us want to live longer. *Prabhupāda: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you? By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty*-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living! There are so many followers of Śaṅkarācārya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa, told that He lived for 125 years and Kṛṣṇa is still living. Yaśodānandana: Jesus Christ only lived for 36 years. Prabhupāda: Who's caring for any tree who lives for five thousand years? If that is your point, to live long is a great credit, there are already so many living entities who live long, longer than you. Devotee: Well they don't... they may be living a long time but they don't have the same intelligence how to use their life span... *Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...the dogs also got intelligence, the hogs also got intelligence. The intelligence which you are claiming, that is all discussed in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. It is said yes they are living, but you don't see that breathing. So then the vastra, the bellow, it is breathing. "Waa, waa, waa, waa." It is breathing in the (indistinct) and it is (indistinct), the vastra. It is breathing (indistinct). Here they are living but you don't see they have any sex enjoyment (indistinct). The dogs and hogs, they are having very good sex enjoyment, even on the street, without any restriction, and begetting three dozen children in a year. And they give credit to whom? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Apart from science, we have very nice philosophy and literature, studying art. Prabhupāda: That is real science. Science we admit, but your science is not. You are trying to go against the laws of nature. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about our art and literature which just shows that... Prabhupāda: No. That is different department so far science is concerned. But pure science is useless, simply useless. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we acknowledge that, suppose we acknowledge that, but we say that still our cultural advancements are very great. The students say that... Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That's a fact. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say "Why...?" Many people I meet in the university they're not involved with science very much. Their main dealings are with culture, literature, arts, philosophy, music. They say... He feels we have very wonderful, beautiful things to study so why should we take up studying what you have to offer. There's so much to study with what we're doing. Why should we join your movement? Why should we give up studying such beautiful music and art and literature? Prabhupāda: Because you'll like it. And there is beautiful sounds, you'll hear it. Even animals hear it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you sing the same song all the time. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But do you hear it? As soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra hundreds of persons, they'll have to hear it. Ask them not to hear it. You go, you scientists, (indistinct) ...don't hear it. They hear it. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But your music is of one chanting is very limited. Chanting... Prabhupāda: First of all you finish this limited, then you go to unlimited. You have no experience of this limited, what to speak of the unlimited. Kṛṣṇa has described you mūḍhās, and you have taken (indistinct) are mūḍhās. (indistinct) ...to have to take credit in so many way that our conclusion is following the footsteps of Kṛṣṇa. You are all mūḍhās. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like some people may express God by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa but we can also express God through our musical talent. [break] Prabhupāda: You decorate God so nicely (indistinct) ...art painting, everything. They, putting art, so many thing, (indistinct). There's no scarcity of art painting. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are trying to attain the Supreme through our own music. We are doing that through our own mus... *Prabhupāda: No. That is... That is another nonsense. We are trying to please the Supreme by the Supreme music. Golokera prema*-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. These sounds are not (indistinct) These are Vaikuṇṭha songs. Nārada muni bājaya vīṇā rādhikā-ramaṇa nāme. It is words by Nārada Muni. It is not manufactured here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't you think that the great musicians like Bach, they were inspired by God to make this music. Prabhupāda: But they (indistinct) do not believe in God. So that is another thing. But this music is like you are hearing music ten thousand miles away. Similarly, this music is being imported from Vaikuṇṭha many millions and many millions of miles away. So this is not just music of this mundane sound. Otherwise why you are not tired repeating it for many, many days? Any mundane sound, we repeat it, you cannot prolong it. You cannot prolong it. But we are (indistinct) only Hare Kṛṣṇa and you can chant this. And you also hear it. You (are) attracted. Yaśodānandana: You have said that variety is the mother of enjoyment. So we are enjoying many different songs. Prabhupāda: Unless there is variety how we are enjoying. Yaśodānandana: Yes. So therefore you only have one song. But we have many songs. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Who cares for you. Yaśodānandana: So many people. Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there are so many symphonies... Prabhupāda: That is our credit. We have got one song and we are attracting so many. You have got many songs but you attract yourself only. That... Devotee: When there is a symphony orchestra, ten thousand, twenty thousand people have come to hear. Prabhupāda: But who takes it seriously? Devotee: They all do. Prabhupāda: They stay here and go away. That's all... Temporary, temporary. Devotee: But then they will also buy the record and listen at home. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but our song, we are chanting always, where is that song you have got? You have got (indistinct) ...he has to give new record. Nobody cares for the old record. (indistinct) ...then his business will stop. If you say that "I have given one song, that's all." (everybody laughs) Who'll care for it? That is our credit. Devotee: But they will say only a select few are interested in that Hare Kṛṣṇa song. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not select few. They're increasing the number, many thousands. Cannot say select few. Select few was beginning (indistinct) ...I was chanting (indistinct). And now that it is not select few and it will increase. But the song is the same. That is our credit. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going back to science again... Prabhupāda: Going back... Where is science? Going back to hell again. Say "going back to hell again". Say like that. (chuckles) Because that is not science. That is our charge. You can say like that: "Going back again to hell." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We wanted to talk to you about the moon. We have read your statement that you say that man has not gone to the moon, but we have seen... Prabhupāda: Not only now, I've said long, long years ago. That this is all childish. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But how can you say this when we have so much proof that we have gone to the moon? Prabhupāda: But that proof is with you. I have not gone with you. I don't believe you because, according to you, unless you see, you don't believe. I have not seen so I don't believe. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen the North Pole but you believe it. Prabhupāda: Ah ha. You materialistic people say that "We have not seen God, therefore don't believe." Therefore I say, "I have not gone with you, that you have gone to moon, I don't believe." That's all. Finished. How can I believe? You say that you have gone. But I have not gone with you. So how can I believe. That's all. That is my argument. You did not take me with you. How can I believe? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pictures. Prabhupāda: Why I shall believe pictures? I have not seen it. This is false picture. As you say that you could not saw God therefore don't believe. Therefore I say that I did not go with you, I don't believe. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we can arrange to put you on a ship to take you to the moon. Prabhupāda: When you take then I shall believe. Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet. Prabhupāda: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in your *Vedas* it says that the atom is the smallest particle but yet we have... Prabhupāda: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called paramāṇu. Then it is anugra paramāṇu, (?) smaller than the atom. Devotee: Does that mean the electrons? Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But śāstra is there. (devotees laugh) Be convinced of your footing, (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings. Prabhupāda: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is bogus. Brahmānanda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big dinosaurs... Prabhupāda: That we have already information. We have got timiṅgala. Just like big house. They can swallow up, what is called? Devotee: Whale. Whale. Prabhupāda: Whale (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're not fish. And they're very big and we have information... Prabhupāda: So what is to you? You are also a created being. He's also created being. That's the (indistinct). You are not creator of the (indistinct) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you say that there was more intelligent life previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously. Prabhupāda: But you do not see, you simply imagine. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We have the skeletons. Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals. Prabhupāda: But that's all right. There was a big animal, that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so there was a big animal. What is the difference? They are animals. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have skeletons showing the men at that time also and their brains were very tiny. Prabhupāda: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not seen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have skeletons in the museum. Brahmānanda: Very thick skulls and very small brains. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Almost like a ape. Prabhupāda: That's all right. There was a big animal. So what is the difference? They are animals, big or small. You have seen a skeleton of pygmy man also. So where is that man now? You have seen pygmy man, you don't require archeological. So where is that man? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't live any more. Now we are more intelligent. Previously there were pygmy men, very less intelligent, small, not nice looking. Now we have got more... Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra you are going to be pygmy men. That is, there is proof, because you are not as strong as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our śāstra you come to that pygmy, (indistinct) in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history repeating. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali*-yuga? *Prabhupāda: Yes. We say there was Kali*-yuga. Four yugas are changing. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dinosaurs also? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're from Kali*-yuga? *Prabhupāda: Kali*-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... [Bg. 3.27]. They're going on. Devotee: But if we have bones from so many yugas ago... Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are 8,400,000 species of life. You have seen some of them. That's all. Devotee: But the question is that why are there not any findings from only 5,000 years ago at the time when Kṛṣṇa was here and... Prabhupāda: Your knowledge has come to Darwin's theory for 200, not even 200 years. Devotee: I was just talking to Kārttikeya. They have found this city 4,000 years old, (4,500). Devotee: Where's that? Devotee: It's near Kurukṣetra, I think. Brahmānanda: Yeah, there's one in West India. Prabhupāda: So many things are coming according to their research. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about the city of Dvārakā? We do not find it remaining anymore. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Might have (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we cannot believe what we don't see. Haṁsadūta: Actually the scientists don't accept this theory at all any more about the man... Prabhupāda: Eh? *Haṁsadūta: The more advanced scientists, the more up*-to-date ones, they reject this whole Darwin thing. But it's become so ingraded in the minds of the people that they have published, this Life, Time Magazine, they publish millions of books and sell it. People read about ape man, the man came from the ape and so on. It's become such a popular, it's like a fairy tale. Prabhupāda: Propaganda, it is propaganda. That's all. Propaganda, you can do any false thing (indistinct) say. This is called, propaganda is called in Bengali dāsa cakre bhagavān butha (?). Dāsa cakre bhagavān butha. Bhagavān, one gentleman's name was Bhagavān and he spread, conspired that let us, make us some joke that she has become ghost. So wherever he was going, the friend: "Oh, oh, a ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost!" (everyone laughs) "No, no, I am not..." (indistinct) ...this man has become crazy, why he (indistinct) Then he goes another friend, then he also says like that, "Oh, here is a ghost, here is a ghost, here is a ghost!" (everyone laughs) Then third friend, everyone, because they have conspired. Then he began to think, "I must have become ghost." (laughter) So certainly I'm... (indistinct) all friends have calling me, "Ghost, ghost." That's dāsa cakre bhagavān... If you make propaganda, if he's not ghost, you can make him ghost. This is propaganda. This is called propaganda. By propaganda you can establish a false thing as real. That's all. This is going on. They know how to do it. They're expert because they're cheaters. They know how to do it. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheating business. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. Even something which is just... How Śyāmasundara has become victim. This rascal has given him some stone, and it is very valuable and he's jumping. (indistinct) ...has taken ten lakhs of (indistinct). Pukka propaganda. (indistinct) ...he has taken victim. That's all. He's not in his sense, even now, that if he has given me real gem, why I am unable to sell it for the last three, four years? Such a foolish. Devotee: He's saying that he has to create the market. Prabhupāda: Good things, does it require...? That is propaganda. You have got some false thing, you have to make propaganda to prove it, that it is real. Devotee: That is the proof it is false. Prabhupāda: Yes. And this man has taken money for... And he cannot supply even maintenance for his wife and girl. You have seen Mālatī? Devotee: Yes Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Not properly dressed. And this poor girl is not properly dressed. And he's thinking he'll (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His head is in the clouds. Haṁsadūta: I think Bali Mardana became infected by Śyāmasundara. He saw that Śyāmasundara was going to be a millionaire so then he had to also become a millionaire. So he got Mrs. Toyota. *Prabhupāda: He got a cheat wife. Eh? Mother said she cheated that "I am twenty*-six years." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So many things she cheated. Prabhupāda: Simply cheated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he wanted to be cheated. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Daughter (indistinct) and grand*-daughter, all cheaters. Remember in the United Nation, (indistinct). Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She cannot speak Japanese. Prabhupāda: Everything cheated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She even said that she had four stillborn children. And we went to the hospital and there was no record of her having even been admitted to the hospital. Bali Mardana, she told him to wait downstairs while she gave birth to the four children and then two hours later she came down, she said, "Now it is finished." And he took her and drove away. Prabhupāda: Mesmerized. Brahmānanda: And there was talk that you had said that those four stillborn children were incarnations of Viṣṇu. Prabhupāda: Anyway, she was think that by cheating this man I am becoming successful. Then she, without any restriction, she began to cheat. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: And because he was Mahārāja so he became, she became Mahārānī. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still he's being fooled by her. Those birds I think are the ones from the cage. Because they're being fed they're all, agree to be... Prabhupāda: ...put in cage. (indistinct) free. They can go away, but no... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like, the human beings are like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Yaśodānandana: Do you think that... As the Kali*-yuga progresses the people are getting smaller. Does this mean that Kṛṣṇa and His associates were much taller in stature than we are now? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaśodānandana: They were much bigger. *Prabhupāda: You have seen that Rādhā*-Dāmodara temple, Kṛṣṇa footprint. Devotee: That means Kṛṣṇa must have been fifteen or twenty feet tall? Prabhupāda: (indistinct) But it is a fact formerly people were taller. We have seen. In our childhood we have seen, when European, they were very tall. Devotee: They were taller and they lived longer. *Devotee (2): That story about King Mucukunda when he was sleeping in the cave and he came out of the cave and looked outside and he said, "Oh, it must be Kali*-yuga." because the trees were smaller and... Prabhupāda: Do you (indistinct) ...the mango trees now? Some of the trees (indistinct), the lemon tree, stunted. In Japan they grow many trees. Devotee: In Japan they cultivate trees to be like that, very small. They have little orange trees. Orange trees are this big, orange trees. Prabhupāda: They are also becoming oranges. Japanese enjoy. Haṁsadūta: The Japanese and Chinese are very, very small. Prabhupāda: Did it...? [break] ...special. There is a proverb, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman kalki chele busi... (?) A brāhmaṇa, black... Brāhmaṇa's another name is śukla, white. So as soon as a brāhmaṇa is black then he's (indistinct) kalo brāhmaṇa. Kota śūdra, and śūdra, just like African, if they become white there is something mystery. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, Mohammedan, because Mohammedan means the Afghans, they are very tall, so a Mussulman is dwarf, a brāhmaṇa is black, the śūdra is white, kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman and kalki chelo, that means the bastard and (indistinct) ...these are all of the same class. Adopted son, he gets money, without any labor, he spends like anything. In your country there is adopted son? Devotee: Yeah, yeah. Prabhupāda: Here there are many adopted son. A rich man has no son. He adopts somebody, rascal, and he spends money like... There are so many instance. Squanders. He'll be satisfied after finishing... There are many instances. In our childhood, many you have heard, you have seen one, when the adopted son (indistinct) ...big property and he was not satisfied to squander all the money unless it became (indistinct) That I've seen. He had many cars and I saw him, he was drenched by water, rainfall, sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. When he was rich, big, big men would come to see him, even Burdwan Mahārāja. Now I saw him that he was in Dharmatala, it was raining and he was sitting in a rickshaw. Nobody cares for him. And he was satisfied at that time after finishing the whole money. Otherwise hundreds and two hundred friends, there was very big house, bring, I mean to say, received as guests daily. (indistinct) His name was Arendranath(?) Sil. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a Hindu name? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bengali. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seak? *Prabhupāda: Sil. Sil means cultured. A cultured man is called sil. Sushil. Sushil means very culture, very... Sushil. So kalo brahm... This is unnatural. Kalo brāhmaṇa kota śūdra bete mussulman, kanki chele... (indistinct) Now generally people, we saw, in our childhood, Europeans were very tall and now they are not coming (indistinct). Naturally when they'll not get sufficient nourishment, they'll be stunted. And Kali*-yuga means decrease of nourishment, necessities of life decreasing. We see in such a rich man's house, there is no milk. Milk is one of the important nourishment foods. And there is no milk. So gradually there'll be no milk, no rice, no wheat, no sugar. These are stated. Where you'll get nourishment? And the mango, there'll be no pulp, only the seed. These are predicted. After all, you have to live by nature's gift, but these things will be finished. And Russia there is, already there is no rice. There is no fruit. There is no vegetable. Simply we eat meat. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Therefore they cannot understand God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not they. They understand, the people understand. But this, this rascal government. That I have studied. Russian people are not bad. They're as good as others. But this is... Just like in India, still the mass of people, they're very good. And too mu... Yesterday we saw, all rascals, all these politicians canvassing, all big, big fat rascals. Devotee: We were noting that when they were giving their lectures at that opening of the train station they seemed very demonic. Prabhupāda: All demonic. Brahmānanda: Their faces were very shifty. Devotee: So much anxiety and so much political dealings. Prabhupāda: All demon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All very fatty. Prabhupāda: They, they... the other's money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The peo... I didn't see one village man who was fatty, not one. Prabhupāda: Not one. They're extracting money from them, making them intoxicated and exploiting. This is the fault. Very precarious condition. [break] So if you can make one example [break] India, that spot, very good example, then we can capture the whole India. Simply, we have got enough land. Give them enough food. Make them stout and strong, both the animal and man. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let them hear. Everything will be all right. Everything will be ideal. Devotee: No one can object either. Prabhupāda: No. (chuckles) Devotee: That's the beauty. Prabhupāda: Make the whole field green, [break] sumptuously, let the animals eat, let the man eat. They feel satisfaction and they [break] He knows some people, they are being exploited, animals are being exploited by these rogues, fat, big, big, fat rogues. Discovering some nonsense, scientific means and people are starving. There is no food. And they're busy in discovering scientific method. Yaśodānandana: Atomic bomb. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśodānandana: Atomic bomb for India. That is the greatest paradox. Prabhupāda: There was a picture... some deputation came to the minister that we are starving. There is no food. The administrator, he went, "Of course I have no information that you have no, but we're advanced now. Come tomorrow, there will be radio message. Radio message, radio, there's television, ha television..." Yaśodānandana: Television. Prabhupāda: Television, tomorrow, from tomorrow you'll have television. Yaśodānandana: Instead of food. Prabhupāda: Instead of food you'll get television. (laughing) Advanced. This is going on. "I am hungry, sir. What shall I do with television?" That is the real answer. Say "I'm hungry. What shall I do with the television?" But he's pacifying, "Don't worry, you'll get television." This is science. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cheaters. Prabhupāda: This is science. People, for want of sufficient nourishment, they are becoming dwarf and they are discovering scientific method. Brahmānanda: Intoxication... By increasing the intoxication the desire for food reduces. You eat less. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are very much dizzy. And little hunger satisfied with meat. That's all. That is going on in the western country. The drinking... I have seen in airplane, bottles after bottle, they are drinking. Devotee: Every day. *Yaśodānandana: Actually they have run a survey in America and they have found out that the greatest drug takers are housewives. The housewives, they are taking these weight*-watching pills and they are addictive amphetamines. They are taking them and it gives them energy and they don't want to eat so much. So they are very skinny. They drink a little coffee and smoke cigarettes and take some pills and that is all during the day. Finished. And they remain very slim. And they think this is nice. So gradually they are replacing foodstuffs with pills. Prabhupāda: That is nature's way because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole civilization is becoming expert in killing and dying. That's all. Prabhupāda: You have got some agricultural experience? Devotee: Not at all. Prabhupāda: Not at all. Anyway, that not very difficult. Devotee: No. I can take advice from the experts. That man with the white beard there, he's supposed to know very much. He's supposed to be very expert, and he speaks English. He's supposed to have agricultural experience. Prabhupāda: Eh? Yaśodānandana: Jayapatāka had no agricultural experience. Prabhupāda: Any city boy (indistinct) (end) Morning Walk -- April 17, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...There is no possible (?) Tell them, this United Nations Organization, that "You are all bogus. You cannot do it. Come to this platform, and you'll be able." They have proved themselves bogus for the last 25 years, I think. They started in 1947? Huh? Devotee: 1945. *Prabhupāda: Forty*-five. (To passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how many years they have... Devotees: Thirty years. *Prabhupāda: Thirty years. Uselessly. Wasting money and time... [break] ...that this movement is very good. He goes step forward, simply by saying this, that "These people are doing very nice." Ajñāta sukṛti. Kṛta*-puṇya-puñja. So, both say (Hindi) (end) Morning Walk -- April 19, 1975, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...nobody said that this meat*-eating is bad; now I am saying. You see? So they do not know that it is bad. So they are not offenders. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now that you are saying, many people are stopping. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody, they act... Just like illicit sex. They did not know that it is sinful. Now they are understanding. There was no good leader. Even the priests. In the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." The priests never said, because they are meat*-eaters. They themselves are meat-eaters. How they can say? "It is our tradition to eat meat." But how the common man will be educated? [break] You can give me the general prasāda today. I will taste. (test?) [break] When one becomes rich, he becomes lazy. What is called? "Leads to poverty"? Luxury. "Luxury leads to poverty." So at one time one become very rich by hard work, and next generation gets the money for nothing, he spends it on luxuries, and the third generation, poor. There are many families, in everywhere. In England, all these English men, in the beginning they worked very hard, expanding their empire and working. Then gradually, when they became Lord family, then luxury. Now they are poverty-stricken. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their country is very poor now. Prabhupāda: Very poor. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of Europe is poor. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially Holland and England. Holland and England and France, there was competition for colonization. The same colonization is there in America, Canada. The Frenchmen and*-what is that? Brahmānanda: The Dutchmen, they went to New York first. The Dutch, they first went to New York. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhanañjaya: Peter Stuyvesant. *Guru*-kṛpa: The Scandinavian countries are not so poor. Denmark, Sweden... Prabhupāda: They are industrious, and they have got resources. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they have developed more recently, I think. They were not colonizing. Prabhupāda: No, the colonizing propaganda was amongst these three nation. France, English... Dhanañjaya: Spanish and Portuguese. Spanish also. Prabhupāda: Ah, that side, is, means Western side. *Guru*-kṛpa: Spanish went to South America. Dhanañjaya: But the British used to say, "The sun never sets in the British empire." Prabhupāda: Yes, that we knew in our childhood. Jayādvaita: Now there's no empire for the sun to set on. Prabhupāda: No. Now they have made it Commonwealth, keeping some scent, flavor of British empire. Commonwealth. Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda? In those early days of colonization they were trying to sail to India by a quick route to get the spices, and it was the same time that Lord Caitanya's movement began. So is that just a coincidence, that they were trying to go to India at the same time? Prabhupāda: No. What it has got with Caitanya's movement? Rāmeśvara: I heard... A devotee once told me that they were actually... Prabhupāda: Oh, again, "heard it from devotee." (laughter) That is very dangerous. What Caitanya's movement has got with politics? Nothing. They drag Caitanya's movement, that. Many rascals do that. It has nothing to do with politics. It is simply spiritual. Rather, even the Mohammedans, they were very much respectful to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They never took it as, His, the political movement. Now it has become a fashion to take everything from political point of view. Just like in India, they are suspecting you as CIA. "CIA has come to become Vaiṣṇava." (laughter) [break] That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. If anyone remembers Kṛṣṇa by seeing somebody, that somebody is a Vaiṣṇava. He gives impetus to remember Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is Vaiṣṇava. You stick to your principle, Vaiṣṇava. Then māyā will not touch. [break] Where is Prajāpati? He is not here? Jayatīrtha: No. Prabhupāda: He is going to... Jayatīrtha: He's here in Vṛndāvana, but he hasn't come on the walk. Prabhupāda: So, he is going to demonstrate anything? No. Rāmeśvara: Is he going to do any play? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dances? Jayatīrtha: I'm not sure. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is your desire for that, Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, no, I told him that you make some play for showing here in Vṛndāvana. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's all right that the women are dancing? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śrutakīrti: You said plays. He could do plays. Prabhupāda: Yes. Women as far as possible should be no... That's not good. Devotee (1): He spoke to me about it. He wants to do four performances here. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that dancing he wants to do or plays? Devotee (1): Dancing. Prabhupāda: With women? Devotee (1): I don't know. Prabhupāda: No. Devotee (1): He has to do play? Prabhupāda: So without woman there is no dancing? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His whole troupe is women. The New York devotees, the Vaikuṇṭha Players, they have drama group. *Prabhupāda: So, drama is good. Woman dancing will not be very much appreciated here. [break] ...scarcity of grains and government will exact taxes for poor*-feeding, and it will be used for their own purpose. These are the Kali symptoms. [break] ...stay in future. Guest (1) (Indian man): Are they doubting for themselves or for us? Prabhupāda: For us. Guest (1): They should doubt for themselves. Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, now, from logical point of view... Guest (1): Our movement, this movement, is Kṛṣṇa's own movement. Prabhupāda: No, no, that they may not... I mean to say, from mundane argument, we are selling these twenty lakhs of worth books monthly, so it is being spread all over the world. And those who are purchasing books, they are intelligent men. Then when they will read, how this movement will stop? Guest (1): It will never stop. Prabhupāda: It will not stop. The books distribution is so important, that it will continue to stay. Satsvarūpa: They doubt that our devotees will stick many times. Prabhupāda: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukula. Śrīla Prabhupāda? One thing in your lecture you sometimes say that we spend ten lakhs a month just for maintaining. But I figured out we spend... You can say even fifty lakhs because ten lakhs is very conservative. Prabhupāda: No, so far I have heard. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I... From what I have seen we spend... Rāmeśvara: Ten lakhs is just three or four temples. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Rāmeśvara: Los Angeles, New York, maybe Toronto, San Francisco, Dallas, that's all. Ten lakhs right there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every month. Prabhupāda: So what is the actual expenditure? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it must be... Rāmeśvara: Four times that. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least fifty lakhs. Rāmeśvara: At least fifty lakhs each month. Prabhupāda: Then how you are getting money? If you are selling only twenty lakhs' worth books, how you are spending forty lakhs? Rāmeśvara: We are selling more books. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than twenty lakhs. Prabhupāda: So give me, what is called, consensus. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The idea is the Book Fund, if the book is sold, it's sold at a profit. So although you may be getting only twenty or thirty lakhs, much more is being collected. That is the point. Prabhupāda: So why did you not correct me in the meeting? (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I didn't... (laughter) Even ten lakhs is a very impressive figure. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten lakhs expenditure but twenty lakhs collection. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now we should say fifty lakhs expenditure and... Prabhupāda: One crore. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One crore collection. That will be a nice target. [break] Prabhupāda: ...getting more price for their land on account of the temple. Guest (1): Yes, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, they are just started asking double. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But who is going to purchase it? Guest (1): Ah, we are not. Prabhupāda: The purchaser is ourself only. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that land... Prabhupāda: [break] ...not very nice last time. But this time also I am not eating, but I am working nice. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not eating? Prabhupāda: No. This is improvement, no eating but working nicely. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like the six Gosvāmīs. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be great fortune. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. Prabhupāda: You will save your expenditure, and you will get your work. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the devotees of Lord Caitanya, they liked to see Him take prasādam. We don't... We're not that interested to save. *Prabhupāda: [break] Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, bhārata*-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra, janma sārthaka kari [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. "First of all, you become perfect." If you are a devil, you cannot do it. The devil and divine. Divine means spiritually advanced, and devil means materially advanced. And because we are manufacturing divine, the devils are afraid of it. The devils do not like this movement. (Someone drives by:) Jaya. So just see, automatically they are offering respect. That means we are infecting them. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was noticing that yesterday on the parade, everyone was offering respects. Prabhupāda: Yes, Vṛndāvana after all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that is a benefit spiritually. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To offer you respects. Bhagavān: In Bombay, even those poor fisherwomen... Prabhupāda: Yes, they are offering respects. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have to create divine because the world is full of devils. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have to be divine ourselves. Prabhupāda: Unless you become divine, how you can convert others to divine? If you are devil, you will convert others to become devil, that's all. [break] ...most beautiful. *Nalinī*-kānta: . Presided over by Aryama, the planet of trees. Prabhupāda: Planet... not planet. Amongst the trees. So who will prepare nice foodstuff for the governor? Guest (1): Yes, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, very nice prasāda. Prabhupāda: Who is preparing? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've given the list to the chief cook. Guest (1): My wife is there and then Pālikā, Devaśakti, your sister. Everybody is there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it very nicely. Now it will be examined who can cook very nice. If they say, "Oh, it is very nice," then good certificate. Guest (1): Prabhupāda, everybody is praising prasādam. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Everybody praising. Now the governor should praise. Then it will be praising. We can praise ourself, mutual praising society. You are very good, and you say I am very good, that's all. "Mr. Such and such is very good," and another man says, "Mr. Such and such very good." That is mutual praising society. Others must praise. Outsider must praise. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...question about the philosophy? It's about the expansions. We've been reading the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta about Nityānanda Rāma, about the expansions of Lord Nityānanda, Saṅkarṣaṇa. And we were having a little difficulty trying to understand exactly the order in which He expands Himself. We understand that Kṛṣṇa expands as Balarāma. And then... Prabhupāda: Then again Balarāma expands as Saṅkarṣaṇa. And Saṅkarṣaṇa expands. In this way expansion goes on. Where is the difficulty? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mention two Saṅkarṣaṇas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Hundred thousand Saṅkarṣaṇa. Do you mean to say that this universal management is so easy thing? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Prabhupāda: You cannot manage a small temple. (laughter) And Kṛṣṇa has to manage such a vast universal affairs. So this requires brain and expansion. You, when you are enquired, asked, "Why it is not done?" "I told him. I told him." He says, "I told him." Kṛṣṇa does not say. He expands immediately and does the work. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm, does it Himself. *Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa, not that "I told him, and he did not do. I am free. That's all." (laughs) Expansion of order, and nobody is doing*-not like that. One has to see whether it is done. That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that I have told the another man and sleep myself. And Kṛṣṇa does everything in such a way perfect. Pūrṇam idam [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. Nobody can find out any defect. That is Kṛṣṇa, all-perfect. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in the Vaikuṇṭhas, surrounding Nārāyaṇa is Vāsudeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Pradyumna and Aniruddha? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So five are present. Pañca*-tattva. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, you say that Kṛṣṇa is pūrṇam, the complete whole. So in the material world, if something is very great, even though we may not like it, like people may not like the United States, but still, they have to admit that it is a very great country in comparison to theirs. So in the material world, things which are great, at least we have to admit that to some extent they are great. But Kṛṣṇa is everything. So how is it that people are saying that He's so tiny that He may even be an ordinary man? How can they be so illusioned to think like that? Kṛṣṇa is everything. How can they ignore Him? *Prabhupāda: Illusioned because you do not know what Kṛṣṇa says. That is your fault. Kṛṣṇa says, "You do this," but you do not do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Who is doing that? Just take a census, who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Hardly you will find one in million. So who is carrying out the order of Kṛṣṇa? Nobody is doing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You are. But Śrīla Prabhupāda, how is it that Kṛṣṇa is everything, completely... Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And still, people completely can ignore Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: That is... Because Kṛṣṇa is everything, his independence is also Kṛṣṇa. The man's independence is also Kṛṣṇa. So he is misusing his independence. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He is using his independence not to do this. Therefore he is suffering. (Greeting someone:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] ...says, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca: [Bg. 15.15] "From Me there is remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness." So why Kṛṣṇa is interested to induce one to forget? Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they want to. Prabhupāda: Yes. That independence. So he wants to forget. Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, you do at your risk." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And suffer the consequences. Prabhupāda: Yes. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it the spirit soul which is desiring or is it just karma? Prabhupāda: The desiring... After desiring, there is karma. First of all willing. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the soul. Prabhupāda: Thinking, feeling, willing. What you think, you feel, and then you will, and Kṛṣṇa sanctions, that "Do it." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So is the thinking material? Prabhupāda: Material and spiritual also. *Passer*-by: Hari bol! Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just like this machine can be used for material and spiritual purpose. When it is being used for spiritual, it is spiritual. Otherwise, material. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything is Kṛṣṇa's energy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it can be used in either way. Prabhupāda: Either way, yes. Devotee (2): So our thinking and our feeling and our willing is the same. It can be either used in... Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But some energy of Kṛṣṇa's cannot be used either way. Prabhupāda: Hm? Everything can be used. What is the example, it cannot be used? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I was thinking of Kṛṣṇa's internal energy. Prabhupāda: No, internal energy, when it is perverted, that is material energy, when it is covered. Just like the sun. When it is covered, it is called cloud. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking of just like Kṛṣṇa's pure devotees like mother Yaśodā. They are always eternally remaining. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...strongly warm, then you do not become cool very soon. You must be strongly warm, fire temperature. Then you will act as fire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the process for heating up the fire? Prabhupāda: You keep yourself with fire. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya. That is you. Prabhupāda: Don't go outside the fire. Then you keep yourself warm. And temperature increase exactly like fire. That is required. That is the motto of our Back to Godhead: "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." That is the beginning of our movement. Keep Kṛṣṇa always. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Then you remain Kṛṣṇized. And as soon as you give it up, then think of devils. This is going on. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...kīrtana going twenty*-four hours a day. In some of our larger temples is it also advisable? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is advisable for everywhere. Batches. What is the difficulty? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because the whole atmosphere becomes spiritualized, purified. Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: keep always with fire and you remain high temperature. And if you ignite fire and again pour water and again ignite, again pour, then what is the benefit? If you ignite fire, keep it fire, don't pour water. But generally they do that, that "Now I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, I am free from all sinful activities. Now again let me do it, and again I shall chant." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No progress. *Prabhupāda: No progress. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. This is the greatest offense. [break] (switches to room conversation) ...the animals and human beings. Then they can work. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni, then parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Now parjanyaḥ, cloud and rain, that is required. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Then you have to arrange for sacrifice. So in the Kali-yuga the costly sacrifice is not possible. Therefore from the śāstra we understand, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. Sumedhasaḥ, "one who has got good brain substance." There is one word in Bhagavad-gītā, alpa-medhasaḥ: "poor brain substance." So we require some sumedhasaḥ, not alpa-medhasaḥ. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ [Bg. 7.23]. They are making plans by their material concoction that... That is antavat. That will be finished. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ. The things are there already, especially in India. We have got everything ready, and especially this land India. It is specially meant for God realization. By the birth, one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious. Still in these days, whenever... You have seen in Hyderabad. Although your conference was going on, still, at least five thousand men were attracted to hear me. (Guest laughs) And I was speaking the dry subject of Kṛṣṇa. So India is so fortunate. They are still ready to assimilate the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. The land is so fortunate. So we must give them the chance. That is our duty. That is government's duty. That is teacher's duty. That is father's duty. That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāt. Guru's duty. One who has got the chance of accepting something very easily... The guardians... The first guardian, the government, the second, the father, then the teacher, then so many, friends, relatives*-that chance should be given. So Nandaji is thinking... He is an experienced... Guest (1): Actually, Kṛṣṇa Raya (?) has performed there. Nandaji had taken that troupe there. Prabhupāda: So he is also a big man. Now he is retired from politics? Guest (1): No. He is very much... He is more in politics than myself. (laughter) Prabhupāda: So, on that point I have taken his ideas very nice, his thinking. He is a good thinker. And so I have taken his ideas, and I want to reply him. So any good thinker, leaders, they should do something so the India's glories... Now, these people, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is India's glory because we haven't got to give them anything. We are hundred years back always. When they manufacture jet plane, we manufacture sewing machine. Or cycle. *Guest (1): But we have great paramparā of varṇāśrama*-dharma. *Prabhupāda: So we can give them these things. We can give them these things, that spiritual emancipation, and they are appreciating. So if we make ourself in India a nice program*-already they are eager to take-then they will take more and more. And that will glorify India's prestige. So everything is ready there? Oh, here. You have got that letter. You can... (end) Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...that everyone is doing his own duty. Never mind if you are Christian or if you are a Muslim or Hindu, that, what is your duty, what is said in your scripture, you must do it. Not that "Because it is secular, I can do whatever I like." Governor: Secular means I respect you, not only I am Hindu or do what I do... Prabhupāda: Secular means impartial.(?) Governor: But also not come in the way of a Muslim. *Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a śūdra, and you are advertising yourself as a brāhmaṇa. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as brāhmaṇa. This should be stopped. And a training college should be there how to make a real brāhmaṇa. I have given the example... Governor: Vānaprastha college. *Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty*-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brāhmaṇa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brāhmaṇa." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of brāhmaṇa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"? Governor: The thing is a very intensive and completely dedicated course on making an individual a brāhmaṇa. (indistinct)... Then the second thing is not that intensively, but in a village (indistinct) all people. Prabhupāda: All people. Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many. *Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad*-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that? *Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential." Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential. Governor: Both intensive and extensive training. Prabhupāda: Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter. Governor: You said 5 percent and 95 percent. *Prabhupāda: Ninety*-five percent may remain non-brāhmaṇa. But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ-sahasraśaḥ. You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars. So this is the suggestion. Then? *Brahmānanda: "The propagation of mānava*-dharma. Regarding propagation of mānava-dharma, mānava-dharma means the activities of the human beings. So the distinction between mānava-dharma and paśu-dharma is that in the animal society there is no idea of God consciousness. God consciousness can only be propagated in human society. In the animal society they may be physically stronger than the humans like the tiger and the elephant or many such animals, but they cannot be educated spiritually." Prabhupāda: They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education. Then? *Brahmānanda: "But in human society, even though one may be a low*-grade member of the society, he can be trained up to be purified as a first-class brāhmaṇa. It only requires training. Therefore, manava-dharma means to impregnate a human being with spiritual knowledge. A human being must be educated spiritually. That means he must know that he is not this body. Kṛṣṇa teaches this idea in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, Prabhupāda: This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time... (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The pukka moralist, he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view. Then? *Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad*-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti." *Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama*-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti? Then? *Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained*-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society." Governor: Coordination. Prabhupāda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that "Because I am head, brāhmaṇa, oh, here is a śūdra. Oh, don't see his face." Why? Śūdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required. Governor: It is an harmonious coordination. *Prabhupāda: Yes, harmonious coordination. But the śūdras were hated like anything, and they became Mohammedans. And there was no reacceptance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature we understand, that if the Musselman will take little water from the badna (?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Mohammedan. In this way all these Indians, they became Mohammedan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Mohammedan, why they do not claim? Kṛṣṇa and the śāstra, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa... [Bg. 9.32]. This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on. But even by birth one is low*-grade... Governor: No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all śāstras. Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so*-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although śāstra does not say so. Śāstra says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. "If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in pāpa-yoni"... Striyaḥ vaiśyās tathā..., te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim, "they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position." And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated. Caṇḍalo 'pi dvija śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇaḥ. Governor: We have right example of Vālmīki. *Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī*-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard śāstra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the śāstra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation. Then what is next? Brahmānanda: "The injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. The injunction of the śāstra about charity is that charity should be given to qualified brāhmaṇa or sannyāsī because they will spend it for the benefit of the whole human society. This is called charity in goodness. In the śāstras there..." Prabhupāda: Just like we are getting charity, crores of rupees, but we are spending for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, not for drinking. And if charity is given to a drunkard, what he will do? He will drink only. Therefore charity is recommended to be given to the brāhmaṇa and the sannyāsī, no other else. Then? *Governor: The apatra*-dana. *Prabhupāda: Ah? Apatra*-dana, that is third-class. Go on. Brahmānanda: "This is called charity in goodness. In the śāstras there is no recommendation for giving charity to the unqualified men. In this connection I am enclosing a copy of one chart reproduced in our Back to Godhead, 'Charity in ignorance.' " Prabhupāda: She has written one article in our Back to Godhead. I am quoting from that. *Brahmānanda: "...in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the śāstras charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended. Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty*-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure. Spending fifty percent of the income for Kṛṣṇa means for the whole society by encouraging the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Point Nine: The role of manava-dharma pariṣat. I think that if the manava-dharma pariṣat takes these suggestions of mine very seriously, certainly it will be of great benefit to the Indians and the whole world. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on on this principle, and if the pariṣat inaugurated by you cooperates with us, certainly we can render a very great service to the human society. So far manava-dharma is concerned, it should not be restricted within the Indian borders, because human beings are in all parts of the world. Point Ten: The manava-dharma mission, its constitution and program. Therefore the constitution of manava-dharma or the institution of varṇāśrama must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration. The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated. In India the majority of the population is in the villages. The difficulty is that there is no sufficient supply of water to produce food grains. Mother nature, or mother Durgā, punishes the godless demons by restricting the supply of food grains. The godless demons are very enthusiastic to produce motorcars, skyscrapers, brothels, and cinemas, and many unnecessary demands of the body, but they are not interested in producing food grains. This is the defect of the modern society. If food grains are produced in an organized way, human society can produce ten times what they are presently producing. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is confirmed, Prabhupāda: This suggestion is to you also. (chuckles) And if you can do these things organizedly, certainly it will be beneficial to the whole human society. Governor: Any elaboration of what you refer to as vānaprastha college? Prabhupāda: No, varṇāśrama. Vānaprastha, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take prasādam and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Vṛndāvana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take vānaprastha, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge. Brahmānanda: I think the governor was asking about the varṇāśrama college. *Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. So if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa he must be brāhmaṇa. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a śūdra, and somebody is claiming, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the brāhmaṇas (were) strictly following. They would not accept... In the śāstras it is said that the brāhmaṇa in bad time may become a kṣatriya. Just like Dronācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he became a kṣatriya for certain reason, and acting like kṣatriya, although he was respected as brāhmaṇa, but he was acting as a kṣatriya. So it is advised that brāhmaṇa may take the profession of a kṣatriya and up to the vaiśya. But if he takes the profession of a śūdra, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced. And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, samsriti? Brahmānanda: Bhāratīya samskriti. Prabhupāda: Bhāratīya samskriti. It will be very respectfully accepted. Why should we imitate them? That is... Western civilization is not brahminical culture. There is no brahminical culture. And brahminical culture is needed. That is the head. That is the brain. And a little bit of this brahminical culture, because I am distributing and they are accepting it so nicely... So in our India, in a place like Vṛndāvana, Naimisaranya, like that, many people will come, if varṇāśrama college is established. Of course, we, in India, so far I know, nobody will come to be trained up as a brāhmaṇa. They will prefer to be trained up as an electrician and not as a brāhmaṇa. Our Bon Mahārāja, he also tried for a Vaiṣṇava University. He was unsuccessful. Governor: No, we take this electrician or engineer or an... Prabhupāda: No, that is already being taken. There are institution where electricians are trained up and motorist, they are... They have enough. Governor: No, what is... What is the... An electrician we get him. He is an electrician and also becoming a brāhmaṇa. An engineer... Prabhupāda: No, no, that cannot be. Governor: You want completely a brāhmaṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, then there will be ideal character. That is going on. One man is claiming as brāhmaṇa, but he is doing the work of electrician. That is already going on. *Governor: No, but while doing his profession, if he has good influence of the varṇāśrama*-dharma, of the brāhmaṇa, and then he will do the work with the dedication to God and to the society. Prabhupāda: No. Why you are suggesting that although he is a brāhmaṇa, he become a electrician. Why? Governor: I will put it this way. He is an engineer, but I would also... Prabhupāda: Engineer? Governor: A mechanical engineer. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Governor: And he also be influenced by the good points of varṇāśrama*-dharma. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiḥ labhate naraḥ [Bg. 18.46]. That is another way, that "I have no other means of earning livelihood." But if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then even though he is acting as an electrician, he is in touch with Kṛṣṇa. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. That I explained in the varṇāśrama-dharma, that even though leg is leg, it is not as important as the head. But the leg is also required to keep the body in healthy condition. So that electrician who has connection with Kṛṣṇa, he is no more electrician; *he is Vaiṣṇava because he has got his relationship with Kṛṣṇa. So that is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Find out Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiḥ labhate naraḥ. You can get perfection. *Brahmānanda: Sva*-karmaṇā... *Prabhupāda: Tam abhyarcya. S*-v-a, sva. *Brahmānanda: Sva*-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ [Bg. 18.46]. "By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection." Prabhupāda: What is there? What is the purport? *Brahmānanda: "As stated in the Fifteenth Chapter, all living beings are fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. As such, the Supreme Lord is the beginning of all living entities. It is confirmed in the Vedānta*-sūtra-janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. The Supreme Lord is therefore the beginning of life of every living entity. And the Supreme Lord, by His two energies, His external energy and internal energy, is all-pervading. Therefore one should worship the Supreme Lord with His energies. Generally the Vaiṣṇava devotees worship the Supreme Lord with His internal energy. His external energy is a perverted reflection of the internal energy. The external energy is a background, but the Supreme Lord, by the expansion of His plenary portion as Paramātmā, is situated everywhere. He is the Supersoul of demigods, all human beings, all animals, everywhere. One should therefore know that as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord it is his duty to render service unto the Supreme. Everyone should be engaged in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is recommended in this verse. Everyone should think that he is engaged in a particular type of occupation by Hṛṣīkeśa, the master of the senses. And, by the result of the work in which he is engaged, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, should be worshiped." Prabhupāda: Now, he is electrician. If whatever he earns he engages in worship Kṛṣṇa, then he is transcendental. He is not electrician; he is a Vaiṣṇava. This is clearly said. Then? *Brahmānanda: "If one thinks always in this way in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then, by the grace of the Lord, he becomes fully aware of everything. That is the perfection of life. The Lord says in Bhagavad*-gītā, teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā. [Bg. 12.7] The Supreme Lord Himself takes charge of delivering such devotees. That is the highest perfection of life. In whatever occupation one may be engaged, if he serves the Supreme Lord, he will achieve the highest perfection." *Prabhupāda: So, some of the big men, past politician like Nandaji, they are also thinking very nicely. Now it is the time to coordinate all these thinkers on the basis of Bhagavad*-gītā as we are pushing on this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That should be seriously taken. And another difficulty is that without any reference to the śāstra there are so many spiritual propagandist. That is not very good. That is not very good, not good at all. No question of very good. They are more or less atheist. They will not take, accept the instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā. They'll manufacture their own way. That will not help us. You must take the standard things. Then it will be successful. In my, this propaganda, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I am very much satisfied that I did not adulterate any instruction of the śāstra. And it is becoming very effective. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ [Bg. 16.23]. Find out this verse. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya. *Brahmānanda: Is that y*-a? *Prabhupāda: Y*-a-h. Yaḥ śāstra. *Brahmānanda: Yaḥ śāstra*-vidhim. Prabhupāda: Ah, that verse. This index has been done by them. Yes. Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda: So, arrangement is...? Just see. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: We can go? (end) Morning Walk -- April 23, 1975, Våndävana Prabhupāda: ...although there is full arrangement for producing food, and because we are rogues and demons, nature will restrict supply. [break] But this machine will be stopped as soon as the increase of population of rogues and demons. The machine is there already. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. The background is Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10], under His order. He says, "Don't supply here." Mayādhyakṣeṇa. The supply is stopped. That they do not know. They are making scientific research. What scientific research? Bring water. There is so much water. Bring that water, distill it and throw. Are you such great scientist? And by God's arrangement the sun is there, evaporates the water from the sea, and it becomes purified without any salt, and it is extravagantly thrown on the land. And the same water again flowing down through the river in the sea, the water is reserved. Nothing is lost. Brahmānanda: The scientists have been able to artificially take the salt out of the ocean water to make it fresh for irrigation, but it is very, very costly. It requires a great deal of energy. Prabhupāda: That is their defect. They theorize, but when it is practically going to be done, "No money. Get taxes." They will levy tax, and the tax will be divided amongst themselves, that's all. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially now all the governments all over the world are broke. They have no money. Prabhupāda: There will be very, very big chaos, this godless civilization. And it is distinctly said, "There will be no grain, no sugar, no milk." These things will be stopped. Eat your sons and daughter. You are very much fond of eating meat. Eat your son. They will do that. I think they are doing now. You know that? Guest: In Africa, yes. Prabhupāda: Not Africa. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vietnam, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard that the North Vietnamese and Vietcong were killing... Prabhupāda: No, no. Now they are killing child in the womb. That killed child is taken in the hotel. Brahmānanda: There was a report that that was going on in New York. Prabhupāda: Yes? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is going on in London, in all civilized countries, advanced civilization. Guest: And they say that there was report in Bombay also. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Guest: One restaurant near Metro was serving that type. And one man suffering from leprosy was given only about one month to live, and "If you want to enjoy, you enjoy. But if you want to get cured, you have to eat human flesh." "I don't eat human flesh." So he started eating anywhere. And he liked one place very much, and he started eating for one month at that particular place. And eventually he was cured. Then a police report was found out that they were serving human flesh by inviting very poor people from the South India for washing the dishes at night, giving five rupees. When they come, they kill him and serve in the morning. Prabhupāda: That was being done long, long ago in a Chinese house in Calcutta. They'd call hawker. Guest: Hawker. And kill him up. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest: It is a very confidential report. The government will not publish it. [break] Prabhupāda: Supply large quantity of milk? No. Guest: No, that milk is medicinally used for whooping cough. Anybody suffering from whooping cough, they have to take this camel's milk. And any children who do not increase their height, they are given this milk in winter. So height is automatically increased. They become like camel eventually. (laughter) Tall, I mean. I don't mean the..., in Western way. According to Āyurvedic principle, every animal have got a particular method of curing particular disease. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Guest: Now, Sitalamata, she is always traveling on a she*-ass. Now she-ass's milk is very good for smallpox. If you take one spoon every day for three days in a year, one does not get an attack of smallpox. Very simple. Ideologically... Prabhupāda: Her carrier is ass. Guest: Ass, and it's a cure. And I've got a small idol of... Prabhupāda: And the carrier of Ganeṣaji... Guest: Is mouse. Prabhupāda: Mouse. So, you have to eat that also, to get success? Guest: No, no, not success but intelligence, I think. Prabhupāda: No, Ganeṣaji is meant for giving you success. Guest: Correct. Prabhupāda: So, then you have to eat rat? Guest: No, not rat. Milk. We are talking about milk product only. Prabhupāda: So, milk of the rat? Guest: If the scientist can extract it, then well and good. Because a very such small mouse. Prabhupāda: But they must have milk. Every lady animal has got milk. Guest: No, but what I think a rat is responsible for, what do you call, spreading cholera. So rat must be supplying the medicine for cholera also. Whenever cholera is there, rats are there. Prabhupāda: But Ganeṣaji is not meant for cholera. Ganeṣaji is meant for success. Guest: Success. Prabhupāda: So that means those who want success, they should eat the milk of rat. (chuckles) Guest: Yamarāja is going on buffalo. So buffalo milk also we are not recommending. Prabhupāda: Buffalo milk? Guest: We are not recommending. In the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we are not recommending buffalo. Prabhupāda: No. Anyone who wants to go very soon to Yamarāja, he can drink buffalo milk. Or it may be that if you drink buffalo milk, the Yamarāja will not touch you. (laughter) The other side may be taken. [break] ...in the morning take water from the river, evacuate, then wash their hands and take nice bath. And one jug water brings at home. Then everything, water problem, is solved. Guest: But now they've put in Mathurā, refinery at Mathurā to pollute Yamunā River. And again problem will come after four or five years. Prabhupāda: So if your government wants to kill you, who can save you? That is another thing. Rakṣa bhakṣaka. Government is meant for giving you protection, but if the government wants to kill you, then who will give you protection? Just like nowadays. The mother is meant for giving protection to the child, and the mother is killing now. Then who will protection? There is no other way. Even in the animals, birds, the mother is giving protection. And the small children, they are going after the mother. *Guest: Except the serpent. They eat their children. There are too many of them so they eat at least half or three*-fourths, don't allow the serpent population to grow. Because after the child must be hungry, and she must... Prabhupāda: Still, those who live, they depend on mother. Guest: Actual, the serpent because serpent government, he says. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Serpent mother also, Kali*-yuga. [break] ...they are keeping, but it is not possible to give them food by purchasing. They are taking food from the street. Similarly, the poor man keep a cow. It is not possible to purchase food for the cows. So maintain in this way, so, by natural food. And in Germany I have seen. They are not given extra food. They are living by pasturing ground. That should be arranged. They should get food from the ground, not that we have to purchase food for them. Then you cannot maintain. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We just recently went to Govardhana Hill. Several years ago the grass at Govardhana Hill was very nice and long and green. This year, though, it didn't seem so green. It was very brown and... Prabhupāda: Yes, from Kṛṣṇa's time the Govardhana grass was being supplied to the cows. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommended, "Better worship Govardhana Hill. Why you are going to Indra?" Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that means that it is possible for long green grasses to grow in this area. *Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere. The only difficulty is there is no water, no supply of water. In the rainy season this will be all green immediately, immediately, without any delay. So, the only difficulty*-there is no water. *Guest: In Gujarat now the same problem is there and they are digging well, five*-acre well, just we have dug at Māyāpur, and collecting water. Rainwater is collected that way. So here also it can be done for a small farm. [break] Prabhupāda: ...saṅkīrtana, then water will come. You haven't got to do anything. Otherwise the words of *Gītā* will be false. Yajñaiḥ... Yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. The formula is there. You perform yajña and the water will be supplied. They are not performing yajña. *Dhananjaya: So then it's very important to perform twenty*-four-hour kīrtana here. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Devotee (2): From that, then, the rains will be produced. Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should not chant for rain. That will automatically come. But you should chant for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Makhanlal: There's some rumors that there will be a drought in the United States, a very severe drought. Tripurāri: But by the devotees chanting they would never have to... Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere. Makhanlal: Even if there was drought for the nondevotees, the devotees would, automatically wouldn't have to worry about such a thing. Prabhupāda: [break] ...stopped, then your whole business stop. Imagine if these hills were green. How much foodstuff would have been available both for the animal, for the man. All dry, all dry. People should immediately accept this chanting to solve this problem. [break] And the yajña means yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana. Gopal Kṛṣṇa: They think they have better things to do. *Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ātma*-sainyeṣu asatsv api. They are depending on so many other things besides Kṛṣṇa. *Guest: If some definite example is there, then they will immediately copy. See, they are copy*-minded. If suppose we open up a temple here and the conditions here improve, automatically everybody'll take up. So we will see next year. Automatically when things are done by copying, they would like to go by the copy method, not by experimentation. So if our temples are successful in Māyāpur and Hyderabad and everywhere, farms are attained, and if they are able to produce better things, they will understand, "Oh, because of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, people are becoming more prosperous." Automatically they will come therefore. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is also nice. [break] We have no factory; we have no business. Guest: People are wondering now. They are asking me. Prabhupāda: So why they do not imitate this? Guest: No, they will imitate. Because that's why we are going to Ahmedabad to that we can give the... Prabhupāda: Yes, if that is, they want to see practically, so practically we have got 102 branches and maintaining so many men, but we have no business. Guest: No, ISKCON has done better than any government. In ten years what ISKCON has done, no other government has done. Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in America they are surprised. In our Los Angeles temple our devotees are inquired by the store men that "How you are maintaining? You do not work. You have got so many cars. You are eating nicely. You live in very nice building. How you are provided?" They are surprised. Tripurāri: They think we are parasites, though. Guest: Yes, that is another impression, but then we have to clear it up. Prabhupāda: All right, parasite or not, but we are not working and getting our food. Tripurāri: They say because we're begging from them. They are buying for us. Prabhupāda: So why don't you stop? You are forced to give us. You stop. If we are begging from you, you stop it. But you cannot stop. You have to give us. We are showing that we are beggar, but we are taxing, exacting tax from you. You can think whatever you like. Makhanlal: The government is also begging. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if we are begging, then you stop it. That is in your hand. We are not depending on you. (end) Morning Walk -- April 28, 1975, Våndävana *Prabhupāda: ...and is still going on all over the world. So what is the use of observing centenary (centennial?) for a dead system of religion, and which is not very old, not even hundred years? So what is the use? Maṇḍanam loka*-rañjanam. Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍana, with the body which is already dead, if you decorate it, it may be very pleasing to some, loka-rañjanam, but it has no meaning. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, sometimes during your lectures I hear you say yata mat tata mat? Prabhupāda: Ah, yata mat tata path. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What does that mean? Prabhupāda: That is Vivekananda's philosophy. "Whatever opinion you have got, that is also nice." That means even if we differ, your opinion, my opinion, your is good and my is good. That means no controversy, that's all: making compromise. If I say, "Your, your whatever you think..." This is going on. When Gandhi was approached that "You have got so much influence on the Mohammedans. Why don't you stop this cow slaughter?" Gandhi said, "No, it is their religion. I cannot stop." That is yata mat, that "Cow slaughter is also good, and cow not slaughter is also good." (chuckles) This is their philosophy. [break] What is called? Acyutānanda: Yātrā. Prabhupāda: Yātrā. To collect some money, that's all. Acyutānanda: Then they arrange it so that they save the balance expenses. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the meaning of yātrā. Every one of our Godbrothers built here yātrā, but they have no other source of income. Acyutānanda: Yesterday I was speaking to... I invited the chief guest, so I was speaking with... [break] *Prabhupāda: Sannyāsīra alpa chidra bahu*-kori mane. Tripurāri: During the āratiks here at the temple where should the women be standing? Prabhupāda: Āratik, there are so many. That also... Caitanya Mahā..., saw Jagannātha. There was crowd. One woman got up on His shoulder. Tripurāri: During the āratik. Prabhupāda: During... And he was seeing, and everyone saying, "Get! Get down!" Caitanya said, "No, don't disturb. Let her see. She has got so much eagerness." Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we cannot imitate. Prabhupāda: Imitation is always bad. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Imitation is always bad. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Did Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu have a daṇḍī or a tridaṇḍī? Prabhupāda: Daṇḍī. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ekadaṇḍī. Prabhupāda: He took sannyāsa from Māyāvādī. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did Nityānanda Prabhu break His daṇḍa? Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not require any. Acyutānanda: After taking sannyāsa, though, He had śikha and Tulasī mālā? No. Prabhupāda: He was Māyāvādī. (chuckles) (laughter) Acyutānanda: Someone wrote that only Caitanya Mahāprabhu can say ahaṁ brahmāsmi. He is the only Māyāvādī who can actually say aham brahmāsmi, because He is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: He is brahmāsmi, no. He is parabrahmāsmi. Kṛṣṇa*-caitanya-nāmine. (end) Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: Where is difficulty to understand? If it is not understood, put your question and try to understand. *Amogha: In verses like this one, when there is the multi*-use of one word, like the word ātmā is mentioned here to refer to four potential meanings. Sometimes professors and some scholars argue on the point, how do we know which one of the meanings is used in this verse? Prabhupāda: Any one you can take, and it will be explained. Amogha: So any of the four meanings is also the same true meaning. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Sometimes they claim that we should not claim that our choice is the true choice, but they don't understand that any of those meanings can be true at the same time. Prabhupāda: Yes, this body is true. We have got body. We don't say it is false. It is true. Bodily pains and pleasures we feel, so how can I say that the body is false? The body means bodily pains and pleasures, then we are affected, so how you can say it is false? Similarly the mind, and soul is absolute thing. Factually. So any item you take, you can understand by thorough study. Paramahaṁsa: In some cases, in a more controversial case, the word chosen, or the meaning chosen for a particular Sanskrit word, may change the whole meaning of the verse, but because... Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to take the paramparā meaning. Because we are foolish, we cannot understand properly. Tad vijñārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. Therefore, one has to go to guru and understand the meaning by paramparā. You cannot make your own meaning. The meaning is already there. But if you cannot understand, then you should approach guru and understand the meaning by paramparā. Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people ask where Swami Prabhupāda get his meanings for different words, because they would differ, they would disagree and pick some other word. But they don't know that you are simply taking the verse and the meaning of the words word for word, as the previous ācāryas have done. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. You take that meaning. Where is the difficulty? You do not know, and neither you accept Kṛṣṇa's words. Therefore you remain foolish. You foolishly... First of all you do not know, you are imperfect. And one who knows, you do not take his words. Then you remain foolish. What can we do? What is the answer? You are foolish. So you have to know from others. When we say that you take from others who are perfect, then you will not take. And you are foolish, so remain foolish. What can we do? Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people ask, though, they say, "Why is it that even among the ācāryas sometimes we find there is a difference of opinion?" *Prabhupāda: They are not ācāryas. They are not ācāryas. There is no difference of understanding between ācāryas. What Madhvācārya understands, we also understand. Suppose you are present also. So there is no difference. What Rāmānujācārya understands, we also understand. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu understand, we also understand. So where is the difference? Difference should be that the fact that he is not ācārya. As soon as he differs from the previous ācāryas, that means he is not ācārya. Otherwise there is full agreement between all the ācāryas. Just like Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, all ācāryas agree. Where is the difference? Does Rāmānujācārya differ from Madhvācārya, or Madhvācārya differ from Śrī Caitanya, Caitanya differs from*-no. There is no difference. That is Vaiṣṇava. All the Vaiṣṇavas understand that Viṣṇu is the Supreme. There may be, sometimes, such as Kṛṣṇa is understood as incarnation of Viṣṇu, and sometimes they understand Viṣṇu as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. That is sampradāya. That is sampradāya. But either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, He is Supreme, that is accepted by all. Paramahaṁsa: So that point is not so important whether Kṛṣṇa is coming from Viṣṇu or Viṣṇu is coming from Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not important. Because, actually both of them the same, the Supreme. That example we give that candle, two candles, that so far the power of lighting is concerned, both of them equal. Now, you may say this is first candle, I say if it is first candle. But so far the power is concerned, there is no difference of opinion. If I love somebody, I'll say he is first. And if you love somebody, you'll say he is first. But both of them same. Just like devotees, some devotees are very... Hanumanji, he'll never accept Kṛṣṇa. And the gopīs will never accept Rāma or Viṣṇu. So far the Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu, they are all the same. What do you think? Paramahaṁsa: I think perhaps (indistinct) So actually the differences, whatever little differences may arise, those differences amongst the ācāryas, they are due to different feelings of love for Kṛṣṇa or His manifestations. Prabhupāda: You'll find in some, among some devotees, they will criticize, "Why you are worshiping Rāmacandra? He could not save even His wife." (laughter) And some will, "Ah, you are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. He was so fond of women." Like that. In Vṛndāvana you'll find they are different. Somebody will say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," another will say, "Sītā Rāma." There will be competition. There is not difference. Both of them know that either I worship Rāma or Kṛṣṇa, They are the same. Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Here it mentions Brahmān, and as I understood oṁkāra... My question is whether oṁkāra is a representation... Prabhupāda: There is no question about oṁkāra there. Discuss on the verse. But oṁkāra is also Kṛṣṇa. Praṇavaḥ sarva vedeṣu. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya praṇavaḥ sarva vedeṣu [Bg. 7.8]. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am praṇavaḥ." So oṁkāra is not different than Kṛṣṇa. But oṁkāra is pronounced by the impersonalists. That is the difference. Kṛṣṇa, when He says that "I am praṇavaḥ, I am oṁkāra," then where is the objection? They foolishly say that oṁkāra is better than Kṛṣṇa. There is no need of chanting "Kṛṣṇa." That is not good. But so far we are concerned, we say there is no difference between oṁkāra and Kṛṣṇa. Other systems, Christianism or Buddhism or Mohamedanism, they have got one book, Koran, Bible, or... What is the Buddhist scripture? One book. And we have got so many, dealing with the same subject matter. So which is better? Higher mathematics, or two plus two? They should understand the gravity of this movement, my presentation of books. They haven't got so many books. Two thousand years past, the Christian religion has got only one book, Bible. And their only pastime of Christ is crucifixion. There is the cross. Therefore it has become hackneyed. People are no more interested. Neither they can explain very nicely. Neither they follow strictly whatever little information they have. Then? Amogha: Next verse? Paramahaṁsa: ...Madhusūdana because He killed the demon Madhu. But who was that Madhu? Prabhupāda: A demon, it is said. Paramahaṁsa: But I don't think we've heard that story before. *Prabhupāda: In the beginning, when Brahmā was created, one demon, Madhu, came to swallow him. And Kṛṣṇa killed him. Madhu*-Kaitava, two brothers, Madhu and Kaitava. Paramahaṁsa: He came to swallow Brahmā? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So he was one of the first demons killed. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: May we ask questions about pronouncing the Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Amogha: When the a*-h with the dot is in the middle of the verse should it always be pronounced clearly, a-ha. Adhi-yajña-ha, or is it more like adhi-yajña. Prabhupāda: That is stated there. In the verse what it is? *Amogha: Adhi*-yaj... Well, it depends on whether I pronounce it right. (laughs) But it is spelled, a-d-h-i-y-a-j-n-a-h with a dot underneath. So... *Prabhupāda: Adhi*-yajña. When we divide the word, then the first noun form is used. Sanskrit grammar is very difficult. It requires twelve years to learn simply Sanskrit grammar. So, that is not possible. So whatever is there, you understand that. Sanskrit grammar is very, very difficult. At least twelve years it requires. And if you understand Sanskrit grammar, then you can read all the Vedic literature without any translation. Simply by studying. Therefore the Sanskrit scholars are first of all taught grammar. And when one is expert in reading grammar properly, then all Vedic literature becomes very simplified. Amogha: The Supersoul, does He... I remember in one place it describes that the Lord is so small that He can enter even into the heart of the individual soul, and... Prabhupāda: Even into the atom. So where is the difficulty? Amogha: Well sometimes it is described that the Supersoul is situated beside the individual soul. So He's beside the individual soul, not inside the individual soul. Prabhupāda: Inside does not mean He is not beside. We are inside this room, that does not mean I an not beside the room. Because I live within the room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? Then, why don't you understand this? God may be within anything, but that does not mean that He is equal or one with that thing. That is Māyāvādī philosophy, foolish philosophy. Because I am within this room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? I am more important than the room. So what is the difficulty to understand? Does it mean because I am within the room, I am less important than the room? The room is important or I am important? Who is important? Amogha: You are. *Prabhupāda: So similarly, Kṛṣṇa may enter within anything, but still He is more important than anything. This is simultaneous. Aṇḍāntarasthaṁ paramāṇu-cayāntarastham-Kṛṣṇa is within and without. That is Kṛṣṇa's position. Antaḥ bahiḥ avasthitam*-in Kunti's prayers you will find that Kṛṣṇa, "You are within, and you are without, still nobody can understand." That is stated. What is our experience? Within and without. But Kṛṣṇa is both, within and without, and still we do not see. Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā-just like a person playing on the stage, and his relatives and others they cannot understand that Mr. Such-and-such is playing. They are seeing something else. He is playing before them, he is known to them, but he still cannot understand. This example is given, naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. So Kuntīdevī explained this. Did you not read Kunti's prayer? Kunti says, antar bahir avasthitaḥ. "You are situated within and without. Everywhere you are." But still the foolish men cannot understand. And why they cannot? Naṭo nāṭyadharo yathā. Just like one's father is playing on the stage, but because he is playing in a different role, or dressing in a different role, even the son cannot understand. So what is the difficulty? Hmm? Difficulty is mind; otherwise there is no difficulty. I am foolish, therefore... Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is visible to everyone. We have got two kinds of experience, within and without. He is present within and without, but still we cannot see Kṛṣṇa. That is my foolishness, that is my imperfection. We have to become perfect, then we will see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That is morning sādhana, spiritual consciousness, advancement. The more we advance in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa we'll realize more and more. Svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ: you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, but as soon as you become purified, He reveals Himself. It is not due to you that you can see. When Kṛṣṇa allows Himself to be seen by you, then you can see. So you have to become qualified to see Him; *otherwise He is everywhere present, we can't see Him. And without being qualified, if you want to see Him, that is not possible. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga*-māyā samāvṛtaḥ [Bg. 7.25]. Find out this verse. Paramahaṁsa: *Prabhupāda: It is explained there. He does not reveal Himself. Why He shall reveal Himself to an unqualified person? That is Kṛṣṇa's prerogative. If He likes He will reveal. If He does not like He will not reveal. You cannot by force see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, first of all be qualified, then try to see Kṛṣṇa. He is not exposed. Even a big man, if you want to see him, he may refuse: "No, I will not see." What can you do? If you think that "This man is third*-class man, why shall I see him?" Even in ordinary human society that is going on. So why people are eager to see Kṛṣṇa without being qualified? Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" First of all you become fit to see God. They'll not become fit. They'll do all nonsense, and want to see God. Kṛṣṇa is addressed, pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. He is the supreme pure, and we are impure, and you want to see the supreme pure. You see? What audacity! I am not fire. I want to enter into the fire. You see? What will be the result? You'll be burned into ashes. First of all be fire. Increase your temperature to the same temperature, then it will automatically. He is paraṁ brahma, so you realize yourself as brahma. You are realizing yourself as American, Indian, this, that, and you want to see paraṁ brahma? The foolish people will do. And one has to become purified, sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One has to be free from all designations. Everyone, we give more prominence to the designations: "I am this, I am this." So how can you see God like that? First of all you become designationless. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, that "I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya"-everything He denied. So purify yourself and you'll see God. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become purified. That makes you all right. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva [Bs. 5.38]. Sadaiva means always. This is the process. Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" What qualification have you got? He doesn't think like that, that "I have no qualification." He thinks that "I am very advanced." That is foolish. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ. Similarly a third-class man goes to a high-court judge. Foolish rascals has come. "Who is that?" "I don't know." There was an incident. One big philosopher and one big dramatic player. He was also very famous. So he went to se that philosopher and sent his card. He said, "Oh, why shall I see this dancing dog? He may be famous as a dancing dog, but I have no business with him. If some philosopher comes, then it will be a pleasure to talk with him. What does he know? He may be expert in dancing. It is not philosophy." So he refused to see him. "Why shall I see this dancing dog?" He used these words. "He's a dancing dog" (inaudible). So similarly, why this ordinary man claims to see God? A dancing dog? A devotee says, marma-hatāṁ karotu vā. A devotee is always anxious to see God, but he said that "I am not qualified. So even I become broken-hearted not seeing God, still Kṛṣṇa is my Lord. I may see, or may not see. That is His mercy. But in all circumstances, He is my worshipful Lord." That is devotee. "Oh, I could not see God? I have done so much?" Kṛṣṇa is not so obliged that because by concoction you think you have done something, and therefore He is obliged to come before you and dance. Kṛṣṇa is not so little. Paramahaṁsa: In this connection you have quoted Lord Brahmā, saying that... Lord Brahmā says that the great material scientists, they may be able to calculate the atomic structure of the material world and the planetary system, but even if Kṛṣṇa is standing right in front of them, they can't calculate His potencies. Prabhupāda: Vivekananda liked to say, he challenged Ramakrishna, "Can you show me God?" He said, "Yes," and he showed him God and then he became disciple. Paramahaṁsa: They're saying that this Bal Yogeshwara, people ask him "Can you show what is God," and he says, "Oh, yes," then he shows them. Prabhupāda: Where he is now, this Bal Yogeshwara? Paramahaṁsa: I don't know where he is. There was one article about him recently, but they didn't say where he was. I think he was rejected. Maybe he is trying to start his own movement. But as far as his Divine Light Mission, he is kicked out. Prabhupāda: Kicked out by whom? By mother. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, mother. Prabhupāda: Mother is authority. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see. Paramahaṁsa: They say that the main reasons that she gave for kicking him out were that he was going to nightclubs and dancing and drinking and eating meat. Prabhupāda: So he was doing all, everything. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So she said, "Oh, he is not Hindu," according to them. Prabhupāda: Then you cannot be God. (laughter) *Paramahaṁsa: So she said instead my other son is God. He is very... Also she was a little angry because Guru Maharaj*-ji's wife, that American wife that he got, who used to be his secretary-after they were married, in all the temples, their ashrams all over the world, they used to have that Bal Yogeshwara's picture and then his mother's picture. But now they took the mother's picture down and put the wife's picture up. So the mother was very angry. Therefore she kicked them both out, and now her picture and another son is on the altar. Prabhupāda: Another son. So they're accepting. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes. He was actually popular anyway, the other son. He was almost as popular as Bal Yogeshwara. He's the older son. He's a jazz musician, so they like it. Prabhupāda: Jazz? What is that jazz? Paramahaṁsa: American music. Something like rock and roll. It is modern music. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So, how he learned? He is Indian. Paramahaṁsa: Well, I don't know, but he's pretty good. His band was very popular in America. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: They were very popular. THey would travel around and do performances, and thousands of people would come. He had quite a big group of musicians, and he was the leader. He would lead the whole group. He would play the trumpet and sometimes dance. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then, Ravi Shankar is no more popular? Paramahaṁsa: Most people think he's too puffed up. Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how they say he's God? Then? You can stop. Those who are tired can take rest. What is the local time? Amogha: 8:30 Prabhupāda: 8:30? Paramahaṁsa: Usually people don't have a very clear idea of what spiritual life is. So when they see someone who is a good musician or a good artist or something like that, sometimes they automatically think, "Oh, he must be spiritual, because he is so good at this. No one else can do it. He must be some spiritual power." So therefore someone like Ravi Shankar, a lot of people either they become envious or they worship him as being an incarnation or something like that. Prabhupāda: That is also stated, yad yad vibhūtimat sattvaṁ. Paramahaṁsa: Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (offer obeisances) (end) Morning Walk -- May 7, 1975, Perth Paramahaṁsa: They can bring a dog if he's on a leash. Prabhupāda: Nobody can. I have seen in Los Angeles. (pause) The water is not very clean. (ducks quacking) We are afraid of water; they're enjoying. (pause) Here we have got gold, copper, somewhere in the mines, but in the sky there are millions of miles land of copper, gold. Amogha: Do you mean other planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big planets, millions of miles. (pause) Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When a spirit soul first falls from the spiritual sky into the material world, does he first go to the lowest of the 8,400,000 species of life, and then gradually come up, or can he fall to the middle or anywhere? Prabhupāda: According to his desire. In the beginning it is not so fall down. Śrutakīrti: In a purport in the Fourth Canto you say that usually they take human forms, because they are desiring to enjoy in that way. And then they begin falling down. Prabhupāda: Yes, the more they enjoy, the more they become entangled. (pause) Does it snow here? Amogha: No. In the mountains. Prabhupāda: Mountains. (pause) ...it is said that sun is the source of everything within this universe. Maintenance of all living entities. The source within the universe is the sun. Therefore this Gāyatrī mantra is worshiping the sun, oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tat savitur vareṇyaṁ bhargo devasya dhīmahi. Gaṇeśa: Does that mean that Vivasvān is more powerful than Lord Brahmā? Prabhupāda: No. Vivasvān was begotten by Brahmā. *Amogha: Some Kali*-yuga swans. Prabhupāda: Black swans. Bhara nitya bhayamāyā. They are also aware how to protect their interest. Every living being knows how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend from fear. These trees I find in America. Here, they are scented. What is called, these? Canada. Gaṇeśa: They look like a maple tree. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is maple tree. Gaṇeśa: I don't think it's quite the same. Amogha: No. It's maple tree, but you can't get any maple syrup from this kind. A special kind. Paramahaṁsa: They had this tree where I used to live, also. I don't remember the name of it. In California. Śrutakīrti: On the airplane coming here they had some article in one of the airline books about eucalyptus trees and how these monks, they make wine out of the eucalyptus. The Trappist monks. Some kind of Trappist monks, they make wine out of the eucalyptus, and they have a big store, and they sell it, in Italy. That's their profession, making different liquors. Amogha: Recently we have shown the film and spoken in several Catholic schools in Melbourne. They have comparative religion classes, and they ask us to come to their high schools to teach comparative religion so the students can see what other religions think. Usually they... *Prabhupāda: There is no other religion. All bogus. Dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavo. Only religion is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. Amogha: They think that if they sin it's all right, because man is imperfect. So they think we should believe in Jesus. *Prabhupāda: Every animal is imperfect, but man*-animal can become perfect. If he likes. So it is very important life. Śrutakīrti: They say it's not possible to become perfect, that that's saying "I can become God." Prabhupāda: What? Śrutakīrti: They say only God can be perfect, that we cannot become perfect. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot become as perfect as God, but near about. Amogha: There's a verse in the Bible which says "Only he can sin who has come short of the glory of God." So they say this means if you think you cannot sin, that means that you think you are God. But we say that you can surrender and become perfect. Prabhupāda: If you surrender to God, then you become perfect. *Amogha: They seem to like everything about our philosophy, except when we explain very clearly that everyone is sinning and under the control of lust and that we must become free from lust. Then they become disturbed because they don't know how to do this, and they want to disclaim it. Just when I was saying that in one class, they all understood very clearly by examples that we are all controlled by our senses, and this microphone speaker came on for all classes, interrupting my speech, and a voice announced in the Catholic school, "Would all the students whose parents purchased tickets for the wine-tasting festival tonight please report to the office," and they all began to laugh because they were embarrassed, because they could see that actually they were engaged in sinful activities. They are also very amazed when they see your books. Sometimes we take ten or fifteen books-Bhagavad-gītā, and ten Śrīmad Bhāgavatams, Caitanya-caritāmṛta*-and we line them all across the front wall or desk, maybe fifteen books. And I begin by saying, "I'm sorry there's only a few minutes to talk, because our Bible is very big," and then I explain, "This is Bhagavad-gītā, and then Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam's sixty volumes. Caitanya-caritāmṛta-twelve volumes." And they become very much amazed that this is our..., beginning of our Bible. [break] What can we say to Communists to attract them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: To make their Communist philosophy perfection. That your Communism is not perfect. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can make it perfect. Take for example that you are sympathetic to all living beings that they must eat. But why you are eating animals? They must eat also. Why don't you allow them to eat? That is you defect. We allow everyone to eat. Not only human beings, but also animals, birds, beasts, they should live comfortably and without any disturbance, they must get their food. That is our Communism. But where is your Communism? You are thinking of your countrymen only, or in your country also only for the human being, and you are sending other poor animals, because they cannot protest, to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest to the capitalists when they send you to the slaughterhouse? You are sending these poor animals to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest? You protest that the capitalist are slaughtering you. So, if you slaughter others, why should you be afraid of being slaughtered yourself? Is it all right? Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is imperfect. We are alo Communists, but we are perfect Communists. We are thinking of all living beings. Gaṇeśa: Some people say that in our philosophy, if we do not wish to slaughter the animals, what about the trees? We are killing the plants. They are also living entities. Prabhupāda: If you compare the animals and the trees as the same, then why not kill yourself, your brother? Why do you distinguish? Why don't you slaughter your own son? Why do you distinguish? Gaṇeśa: He's a relative. Prabhupāda: You discriminate. If you are slaughtering animals and you are comparing that killing of the vegetables and the killing of the animals is the same, then killing your son and killing an animal is also the same. Why do you discriminate? Just kill your own son and eat. Paramahaṁsa: He's a human being, though. Prabhupāda: Ah, therefore there is discrimination. Discrimination is the better part of valor. Whom should we kill? It is all right. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. But there is important. If you eat vegetables there is no crisis, you can go on. It is a fact that an animal is eating another animal. It may be vegetables or animals, but they are disturbing. Therefore it is said, "As it is allotted." You should eat such and such. Not that indiscriminately you can eat everything. If you think killing of an animal and killing a vegetable is the same, then killing of your son and killing of animals or vegetable is the same. Why do you discriminate? What is your answer? Gaṇeśa: So if we discriminate between the animals and the plants, well what about the discrimination between the human beings and the animals? Is it not all right to kill animals and not human beings? *Prabhupāda: No. You discriminate actually. You do not kill human beings, but you kill animals. Similarly you discriminate: instead of killing animals, kill vegetables. Importance. Just like this grass. There is enough supply of grass, but you cannot have enough supply of cows. Therefore discrimination is that it is better to live on grass than on animals. Now, still they are eating seventy*-five percent other than animals. They are not eating only animals. Why not twenty-five percent more? In the market they are not eating animal. When the animal-eaters I see, they have got a little flesh, surrounded by salad and these peas and so many other things. Why don't you eat only meat? Śrutakīrti: Because we require a balanced diet. Prabhupāda: No, you cannot supply. If everyone eats meat only, then one day all animals will be finished. Paramahaṁsa: But we want to have a balanced diet with meat, and vegetables and fruit. Prabhupāda: That balance of diet can be done by grains and vegetables. Why should we kill animals? We know that, the balance can be done. You learn from us that balanced food can be done. Amogha: But in the Bible it says that God gave animals to the man. Prabhupāda: For protection. Not for eating. Rascals. Bible does not say that you kill animals. Then Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. His commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." If he allows killing, then why does he say, "Thou shalt not kill"? Then you prove that Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. Are you following a hypocrite? Nonsense. Paramahaṁsa: So we understand. We will stop eating meat, but we can still eat fish and eggs. Because there are plenty of fish and plenty of eggs. Prabhupāda: That is also better than killing animals. Amogha: Jesus also gave fish to the people in one part of the Bible. Prabhupāda: When there is no other food, you have to take anything. That is another thing. But when there are other foods, grains and vegetables, why should you eat anything? You have to eat and live. So if you can eat and live innocently, why should you kill? Then, Christ says "Thou shall not kill." Was he a fool, rascal, that he advised "Thou shall not kill"? He had no idea? Śrutakīrti: But he meant kill other people. Prabhupāda: No. That is your interpretation, rascal's interpretation. Amogha: All the priests say that. Prabhupāda: He says clearly, "Thou shall not kill." And when I cut grass, it is not called killing. You should know dictionary. Because you are uneducated, you do not know the meaning of the dictionary. Śrutakīrti: But I'm just a common Christian. I'm following my authority. They say it's all right. The Pope. Paramahaṁsa: He's the supreme authority. The Pope is eating meat. Prabhupāda: That means from the supreme down to the rascal everyone is rascal. That proves it, that all of you are a set of rascaldom. Paramahaṁsa: But the government doesn't charge anyone with crime for killing an animal. Prabhupāda: Government means they are full of rascals. Government by the people. So you are all rascals, the government is also rascal. Your democracy means government by the people for the people. So all the people are rascals, beginning from the Pope down to the common man. Therefore the government is rascal. Paramahaṁsa: But not all of us are Christians. Some of us are Muslims, and in the Koran Mohammed says that eating meat is all right. In fact it is required to be a good Muslim, to eat meat. *Prabhupāda: They spoke in the desert. What will they eat? But you are not in the desert. Meat*-eating is a crude form of eating when people are uncivilized. When there is no other food, you cannot produce. But when you are civilized, when you learn how to produce other foods, why would you eat meat? How are you civilized? Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Sikhism there was Guru Nanak and Guru Granth Sahib. Is that actually a real scripture, and was Guru Nanak actually a devotee? Or is that not correct? Prabhupāda: They created a system of religion which can include Hindus and Muslim. That was at the time needed. But that is not a good system of religion. Paramahaṁsa: You mean a compromise between the two. *Prabhupāda: Compromise, yes. There was too much strain between Hindus and Muslims, so he wanted to make a compromise. Actually there was only Vedic culture all over the world. As the things deteriorated, new systems of religion came in. Either the Sikh religion or the Christian or this religion, Muslim religion. They are, what is called, deformed type of religion. Religion is that sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ [Bg. 18.66]. That is religion. These are later on deformed. Gaṇeśa: So is that according to time, place and circumstance we must discriminate in our eating? Prabhupāda: What? Gaṇeśa: According to time, place and circumstance we must discriminate whether to eat meat, whether to eat the vegetables? Prabhupāda: Yes, you must eat. But when good things are available, why should you eat bad things? You must be pacified. Amogha: Was there a story? The Hindus always tell this story about I think Viśvāmitra Ṛṣi eating a dog or something? Prabhupāda: Sometimes. There was no food. Amogha: They like that story. What about in the Buddhist philosophy; we understand that... Prabhupāda: No killing. Paramahaṁsa: ...in the higher stage... Prabhupāda: No killing. Amogha: Yes, but the Buddhist monks, when they beg, they simply accept whatever alms they receive, and if they receive meat then they'll eat that, and if they receive some raw grains then they eat that. Actually that is a higher state of renunciation. Paramahaṁsa: And if they receive some cigarettes they'll smoke them. *Amogha: Yes, and if they receive*-they'll take anything, they are so renounced. So isn't that more spiritual? Prabhupāda: They have no idea what is spiritual. Buddhist religion is not a spiritual. It is material. If you kill me then I feel pain; therefore I shall not kill you. This is. Amogha: Recently we received a letter from a Chinese man in Singapore. He wants all of your books. He wants to know how much. Prabhupāda: Oh? You have supplied? Amogha: Well I just received it. I will answer him and tell him the cost. I will supply him, yes. Prabhupāda: Chinese man from? Amogha: Singapore. Prabhupāda: Singapore. Amogha: That is the country that doesn't like us to come in. Just below Malaysia. Prabhupāda: In the beginning don't talk of these details, just try to convince about the philosophy. What is the nature of God? What is your nature? How we are related, like that. Paramahaṁsa: By details do you mean the rules and regulations? *Prabhupāda: No, that is not in the beginning. In the beginning one must know that he is not this body. He is spirit soul. Don't bring in controversy, but try to convince that you are not this body. Then, gradually. That is the mode of teaching in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Paramahaṁsa: As they become more interested they ask automatically how they can make advancement. Prabhupāda: If they understand that "I am spirit soul" then he'll advance. Then you can say. The chanting is required. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: And prasādam. Amogha: Everyone likes prasādam. In these high schools we take maṅgala āratika burfi and they love it. Sometimes the Catholic sisters and nuns come up afterwards and say, "How do you make this? What is the recipe?" (end) Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: There is an operator. A child cannot think. Motor car is running. Child will think the motor car is running automatically. But a sane man will understand that there is a driver. So persons who deny the existence of God are like that. They see the machine. Nature is the machine. But behind the machine there is an operator. These rascals cannot understand. Nābhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ paramam, tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair. Machine is working, nature is working, that much they can see. And behind the machine there is operator. That they cannot see. What is your answer? What the atheist will say? Has the atheist any experience that any machine works without operator? Has he got any experience? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: Then why does he say? *Paramahaṁsa: But this whole universe*-we cannot compare the whole universe with any machine created by man. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Why you bring man? This machine is created and being operated by God. Paramahaṁsa: Well, we don't have any experience of such a machine. *Prabhupāda: Huh? What do you mean by machine. First of all define what is your idea of machine. Just like the other day we saw, we saw the Thompson place, being printed, being collected, and so many things are being done. It is like this. By machine the seasonal changes are going on, the sun is rising, the moon is rising, the water in the ocean, the waves are there. Everything, machine working. It is machine. Everything being systematically done. Such a big ocean, vast water, it is just on the brink, no more. It is so organized. The sun is rising exactly in time, astronomically. The astronomical watch is one ten*-thousandth part of a second. It is so accurate. You'll find everything is going on. [break] Today is ekādaśī, eleventh day of the moon, the moon shall be like this. There one can see the moon and he can calculate. "Today is ekādaśī." This is not machine? It is exactly, machine. Paramahaṁsa: But the thing is this machine is so wonderful that it goes on without an operator. *Prabhupāda: That is your dullness! You are rascal, you cannot understand how the machine is working, how big it is, that is your dullness. But it is a machine. Very big machine. You cannot understand*-that is not (argument) that this is not a machine. This is not very good argument, that "I cannot understand, therefore it is not a machine." But you see the idea machine is there already, everything is going on-machine. Śrutakīrti: It is such a good machine it doesn't require an operator. Paramahaṁsa: That is the wonder of it. Prabhupāda: No. That is wrong. You cannot find out in your experience anywhere, any machine which is not being operated by a person. You cannot find it. Then why do you bring this idea that without operator it is going on. Where you get this idea? This is a false idea. Because you have no such experience. Where is the machine that "Here is a machine going on without any operator." Find out a machine. Paramahaṁsa: We're trying. (laughter) There are some automatic machines. Prabhupāda: Automatic is at the hand of the operator. Śrutakīrti: Someone must turn it on and off. Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no such automatic machine. It is impossible to prove. Gaṇeśa: But we can see the operator of these small machines, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we cannot see the operator of this big machine. Prabhupāda: Have you seen the operator in the power house? Gaṇeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then? Do you think the powerhouse is going on? Paramahaṁsa: Well we could see him. We could go, we could drive there right now and see him. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can see. You can go to Kṛṣṇa and see Him. That requires qualification. Paramahaṁsa: That's not as easy. *Prabhupāda: No, it is very easy. It is simply, as we are teaching our students, just become a devotee, offer namaskār, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto, always think of Him, and you will go to Him. It is not at all difficult. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Bahavo, many, did come to Me. How? Jñāna-tapasā, by knowledge and tapasya, being purified, they come to Me. Kṛṣṇa says. Why you are disappointed? You can go. Kṛṣṇa is open. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Striya śūdra tathā vaiśya, even the women, less intelligent, the śūdra, vaiśya, they can come. Where is the difficulty? Even if you are born very lowest, you can go. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. Simply you become qualified. That's all. And what is the qualification? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], just always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your respects to Me, and man-manā, worship Me. Four things. That... We are opening this temple (in Melbourne) for this purpose, that you always think of Him, you worship Him, you offer obeisances to Him, and become His devotee. And then? Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.65], without a doubt you will come to Him. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Paramahaṁsa: If the operator of the powerhouse, he is operating and running the powerhouse, but it's not really necessary that we go and see him. We can simply enjoy the facilities offered by the powerhouse. *Prabhupāda: That's alright, but if you are intelligent enough, if you are a rascal fool, you cannot see, but if you are intelligent, then you'll be eager to: "Who is operating? Let me see?" That is the difference of intelligence. Dull, just like we read one story. One little boy he was beating on a drum. So, he became inquisitive, "Wherefrom the sound is coming? Somebody must be within it." He took a knife and cut it. This is intelligence. Wherefrom the sound is coming? He was beating-dum, dum, dum*-he became inquisitive. That is intelligence. A dull student-coming, that's all. And intelligent, he tries to (find out), that is intelligence. Inquisitive. Intelligent boy will always enquire, "What is this, father? What is this father? Wherefrom the sound is coming?" That is intelligence. So, if one is very dull-just like cats and dogs, they cannot enquire. What is this machine? What is this behind? It is the human form of life-these enquiries should come. Otherwise he remains a cat and dog. Jayadharma: They say that they don't accept this body as a machine because they've never experienced a machine that can think, feel, and will for itself. Prabhupāda: What is that? Paramahaṁsa: Well they say that this body is more complicated than any other machine because it can think, feel, and will, whereas other machines don't do that. Prabhupāda: But the thinking, feeling, the brain is there. If the... That is the particular machine, because the operator is within. That you cannot see. The thinking, feeling is coming from the operator. The soul is there, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. That these rascals cannot understand, that the thinking, feeling, that is of the operator, not of the machine. Is that clear or not? The operator is within. So the thinking, feeling, as you were asking, that is not of the machine, but of the operator, the soul. Gaṇeśa: Just like the child, Śrīla Prabhupāda, who was trying to find the sound within the drum, the material scientists are trying to find out the cause and effect of the material world. Is that not intelligence? Prabhupāda: Yes, but they have not reached the ultimate goal. Paramahaṁsa: But they are trying. *Prabhupāda: They are trying. That is admitted. But, they are concluding that there is no operator. That is their foolishness, because they have failed to find out. They have to go further, further, and see, "Yes, there is operator." That is the final part of the... That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān mām [Bg. 7.19]. So after many, many births of sincere inquiry, when he is actually intelligent, he will see, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Here is Vasudeva. He is everything." That is stated. He'll enquire. Go on enquiring, life after life. And then he'll come to understand vāsudevaḥ-sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. You did not read this verse? They will come, after much trouble, much enquiry, they will come to the same conclusion, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. But they'll waste time. That's all. When we say, "Here is operator," they will not take. But they'll waste time, and life after life laboring, one day they will come. Jayadharma: Does that mean that everybody is ultimately on the way back home? Back to Godhead? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is enquiring, but according to his intelligence, perfection, he is making progress. Everyone. Everyone, because he is meant for that purpose. He has forgotten Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure. He is trying to find out pleasure other than Kṛṣṇa, therefore he is being baffled. Unless he comes to Kṛṣṇa there is no pleasure. That he does not know. Paramahaṁsa: We have a saying in the West that curiosity killed the cat. Prabhupāda: Another example as I gave, crying children, child, crying, crying, crying, crying. As soon as he is on the lap of his mother, immediately stops. Why? He can understand, "Now I have got the real thing." Other woman taking, he still continues crying. You have seen it? This is practical. But when the child comes to the lap of his own mother, he immediately stops. Mother also takes care, "My dear child, come." He sucks the breast and is satisfied. Gaṇeśa: So one day the material scientist after many, many births will come to understand Vasudeva or Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaṇeśa: They will become devotees. Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness. We, people, Kṛṣṇa conscious people say, "Here is your ultimate goal of this science. Take it." That they will not take. That is foolishness. They will come to the same point. But when you offer him, he will not take. That is less intelligent. [break] Paramahaṁsa: You were saying that inquisitiveness is the... Prabhupāda: That is human life. That inquisitiveness cannot be found in cats and dogs. That is the difference between cats and dogs and human being. Human being, unless he becomes inquisitive for what is the ultimate source, he is not human being. All these people, 99.9 per cent people, they are not inquisitive. They are searching after some happiness, but they are not inquisitive what is the source of happiness. They are being baffled in the material world. They have, for happiness they have discovered this horseless carriage and so many things, but there is so much unhappiness also when the motor car is crashed between two and life is lost. They are not inquisitive that we have invented this machine for happiness, why this disaster? That intelligence is not. That is it. They are simply going on searching after, but when we say, "No, not in this way, come this way and you'll get happiness," They'll not. That is (inaudible). Paramahaṁsa: But if a person becomes too much inquisitive, just like with the boy and the mṛdaṅga, due to his inquisitiveness he ruined the mṛdaṅga, and then he doesn't have any drum. Prabhupāda: That's alright. The drum can be purchased again, but he should be given credit because he is inquisitive. You can purchase another drum, it doesn't matter, but he gets the credit because he is inquisitive. Gaṇeśa: What about the scientists, Śrīla Prabhupāda? They are very inquisitive, they are trying to find out the cause of the material world. Prabhupāda: That credit we give them. Just like this child. But the childishness is this, that when they are given correct information, they do not take it. (indistinct) If we say to the material scientists that "You are searching after this, here it is, Kṛṣṇa, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], I am the original source of everything." they will not accept. That is their foolishness. Gaṇeśa: They are very inquisitive, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: That credit is already given, but you are inquisitive for a certain thing, if the thing is offered, if you do not accept then you become foolish. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], Vāsudeva, he'll come to that point, that Kṛṣṇa is everything, but when you inform him before that here is the thing, he will not take. That is the foolishness. Paramahaṁsa: You were saying everyone is inquisitive for happiness, but shouldn't that be purified? Shouldn't we give up all desire for happiness? Prabhupāda: No, no. Happiness is life. How you can give up? Paramahaṁsa: But if we desire for happiness, then we are being selfish. *Prabhupāda: Yes, but you do not know where you is your self... [break] ...sense. That is your foolishness. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31], they do not know. Everyone is selfish, everyone is self-interested. But he does not know how to fulfill it. That is foolishness. Paramahaṁsa: But isn't it better to give up all ego altogether? Prabhupāda: Why? Why? That is Māyāvādī philosophy. We make our ego purified. "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is wanted. Not that to make my egoism zero. That is Māyāvāda. They are disappointed, they think finish this egoism. It cannot be finished. Because you are individual soul, it cannot be finished. Simply it has to be purified. I am thinking Indian, you are thinking American. You are neither American neither Indian. We are all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Direct we have to come to that point. Not to falsely think that I am American, I am Indian, I am cat, I am dog. That has to be finished. But you'll come to the real egoism, that I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That "I am" will go on. No that... They are thinking in a way to finish the "I am" or "I am the same." Wrong thing. Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the material scientists are so inquisitive, yet they are leading lives like cats and dogs, how can they come to...? Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are wrongly directed. You are inquiring me, "Sir I want to such and such place." If that place is this way, if I say you go this way. You go this way. Then you'll be baffled, and you'll be unhappy. Wrong direction. Paramahaṁsa: But we are taking some direction from... Prabhupāda: That's alright, but if you take wrong direction you'll be unhappy. Your destination will not be (reached). Gaṇeśa: So how can the scientists arrive at vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]? *Prabhupāda: For that he has to take direction from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says the destination Himself. He comes and says, "Here is, I am the destination, come here." But if you don't take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there, but he's unfortunate*-he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are... Our propaganda is therefore, that you rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don't try to lead. Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction and lead. Then you'll be perfect. This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then (indistinct). Or enquiries must be there but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to (indistinct). So we should make our enquiry to Kṛṣṇa, and take His direction. *Paramahaṁsa: But some people say that the Bhagavad*-gītā is the direction, and some people say that the Koran is the direction, some people... Prabhupāda: Some people. Many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice, whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. They take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you remain imperfect. That's all. Gaṇeśa: We can see from the results of those different directions. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Results, phalena*-paricīyate. That is required. Now there are so many Gandhi-ite students. They have also read Bhagavad-gītā, and you have also read Bhagavad-gītā. Find out the difference. That is the result. Paramahaṁsa: We have heard that Gandhi was a great mahātmā. Prabhupāda: You have heard. You have heard so many things. That mountain gave birth to a mouse. You have heard like that. *Paramahaṁsa: But Gandhi also read the Bhagavad*-gītā, and he made so many wonderful comments on the Gītā. Prabhupāda: That wonderfulness is for the rascals and the fools. What wonderful he has done? He preached nonviolence, but he was killed by violence. That is his wonderful example. He preached the philosophy of nonviolence, which is impossible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa killed him by violence. This is his wonderful. And his foolishness was proved, that there cannot be nonviolence. So he was a fool. Paramahaṁsa: But he himself was nonviolent. Prabhupāda: Nonviol... That's alright, he was a fool. Therefore I say you cannot bring nonviolence in politics. There is no such history. Just like Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent. Kṛṣṇa chastized him, that you are a foolish number one. So... This is to bring a horse before a cart. Politics and nonviolence, it is incompatible. It is not possible. And he did it. Therefore he was a fool. Just like if you want to cook without fire. Is it possible? Devotee: No. *Prabhupāda: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire." You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty*-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they were forced out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence (incompatible). There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this. So how much foolish he was, you can understand. It is same thing like that, if somebody says, "I'll cook without any. I shall scientifically do that a man can give birth to a child." There is no history, and if I say, "Now I shall do it. I shall see that equal rights. As a woman is giving birth to a child, the man will also will give child." These things are foolishness. This is not intelligence. The women are claiming equal rights. So, stop giving birth to a child? Then equal rights. Can it be possible? The man and woman unite, but the woman becomes pregnant, not the man. And if somebody says, now the man will become pregnant, is it not foolishness? Paramahaṁsa: But they have made a way so that the women also don't have to become pregnant. This contraceptive, and... Prabhupāda: This is another foolishness. (indistinct) another... [break] This unnatural thing. [break] What is this insignia? Śrutakīrti: That is Ford's insignia. Prabhupāda: Ford? This is Ford? Śrutakīrti: This is a Ford? Gaṇeśa: LTD. Gaṇeśa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness then, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. [break] ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness. Paramahaṁsa: But we have seen Lord Buddha, he conquered all of India with ahiṁsā, nonviolence, Lord Buddha. Prabhupāda: Lord Buddha was not a politician. Paramahaṁsa: But he conquered India. He became the most... *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He conquered India. If he con*-quered India, why he is driven out of India? Nobody is Buddhist now in India. And in Japan, nearly also halfway, so that is (indistinct). Buddha's nonviolence and Gandhi's nonviolence is different. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Gandhi's nonviolence all rascaldom because he was dealing in politics. Buddha never entered in politics. So how you can compare with Buddha? His activities are different. His activity of false vibration(?), to stop all kinds of miseries of material world. That was his philosophy. He never dealt in politics. Although he was a king's son, he never dealt in politics. You cannot... This is foolishness. We do not know. We do not study what is Buddha's position, what is Gandhi's position. Paramahaṁsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything. *Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He was a good gentleman. He was very humble, meek. Because you have got some fault, that does not mean you have no qualities. That is another thing. But if you deal wrongly with something, then you must be called a foolish man. You may have very good qualities, but if you do not know how to deal with business, then you are foolish. He was mainly engaged in politics, but he did not know how to deal with politics. He was reading Bhagavad*-gītā and he was misleading people that in the Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. Just see. Because Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent the whole Bhagavad-gītā was taught to him, how to become violent, and this rascal said that in the Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. It is not false? So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man? Paramahaṁsa: No. *Prabhupāda: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad*-gītā. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder, I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gītā or something else, but that does mean I know everything about this machine? But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahātmā, a religious man. That was his cheating. Paramahaṁsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say... *Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult. Just like from Russia, nobody is communist. But it is going on*-the Russia is communist country. I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is communist. Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That's it. By force. Nobody accepts this communist philosophy, I have studied. (everyone gets out of car) They were very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin's literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone. Paramahaṁsa: Just like they had some people who came to Russia to start some Buddhist thing, and then they were sent away to some camp, concentration camp. Prabhupāda: Never seen again. Paramahaṁsa: No one has seen them. Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their... It is the most fallen country. No freedom. No freedom at all. Horrible country. Gaṇeśa: Why don't the people revolt if they're so unhappy? Prabhupāda: Yes, they are revolting, but they are now so much suppressed they cannot... Sometimes there is revolt. Sometimes there is upheaval. Paramahaṁsa: Not a big upheaval because they are terrorized. They are afraid that if they revolt, then they... Prabhupāda: They will be killed. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, the government will come out and just shoot them all. Prabhupāda: Yes, all the Leninists and Stalinists, they kill. It is a country of terrorism. That's all. The government men, they are simply terrorists. That's all. Paramahaṁsa: Just like in Cambodia they just, the new Communist government, they executed tens and thousands of people just recently. Prabhupāda: Just see. Paramahaṁsa: People who were working for the old government. They just killed them all. So this what the people are afraid of. Prabhupāda: Yes. Terrorism. This Communism means terrorism. (aside:) Thank you. Amogha: I have a garland, but it's not finished. Almost... Prabhupāda: Communism means terrorism. That I have seen. I have studied personally. By threat, by pressure, that's all. Nobody is communist in Russia. Jayadharma: Is the whole world going to become Communist, Prabhupāda? Or is the whole world going to become Kṛṣṇa cons... Prabhupāda: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare. Paramahaṁsa: They will introduce it. Prabhupāda: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That's all. Paramahaṁsa: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence, like in Thailand there's a little bit of Communist influence, when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students. Prabhupāda: In Thailand? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago. Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. Paramahaṁsa: So the people are very afraid to cause any upheaval. They are afraid that immediately the government will just come and kill them. 'Cause the government has all the weapons. They have the tanks and the guns and everything. And the normal people, they don't have any weapons. *Prabhupāda: This is the age of Kali*-yuga. Therefore the only shelter is Kṛṣṇa. There is no other way. In India it's practically dwindling. Now there is no reason they are not sanctioning our temple. They do not give any reason. "No!" Why "No"? "We don't give any reason." And "Kīrtana is nuisance, nuisance." They are doing that already. Śrutakīrti: Śrīla Prabhupāda? For breakfast just fruits? Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Milk? Prabhupāda: No. You can... Cashew and ginger. And you make, what is called, channa. In the lunch make cheese. Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make preparation. Śrutakīrti: Tomato and cheese? Prabhupāda: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force... Communism is going on, by force. It is the result of sinful life. Paramahaṁsa: They're put into that circumstance. Prabhupāda: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature's law. Paramahaṁsa: The person who doesn't know, he thinks that the child is innocent... *Prabhupāda: Innocent child. He's not innocent. He is sinful. He is being, what is called, chastised. Svakarma*-phala-rūpa-jīva. That is the word, svakarma. One suffers... (aside:) You can sit down here, just like... Everyone suffers the reaction of his own work. Svakarma-phala-rūpa-jīva. Because he is a child, he takes sympathy, "Oh, such a small child is being killed." We take it like that. It is that he is the potent criminal. Now he is being punished. Paramahaṁsa: You were saying with all these wars. The people that are being killed are simply... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore those who are in high standard, they do not take anything as wrong. Everyone is suffering his own reaction. Then bhaktas, they think, tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇo bhuñjāna evātma-kṛtaṁ vipākam [SB 10.14.8]. When a devotee is in trouble, he thinks that "I am suffering for my past deeds. [break] ...me." That is a devotee's attitude. "Let me do my business, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And then he is sure. Such person is assured to come back. He doesn't care for all this suffering. He thinks, "I am suffering for my past deeds. That's all. Why shall I bother myself? Let me do my present duty, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is the first-class position. He is assured. In spite of all material difficulties, if he goes on with chanting, then his chance is first. That is stated. Dāya-bhāk. Dāya-bhāk means he inherits God's property as the son's inherits the father's property. Dāya-bhāk. So we should be callous with all these political, social... We should simply go on. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He was callous. Family affairs, wife's responsibility, for mother's responsibility for... Nothing. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Even didn't care for anything, no responsibility. "My only business is chanting." That is... You preach for some time. Then you simply engage in chanting. Preaching means to make him strong, preaching, to become firmly convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is preaching. So when he is firmly convinced, then he can give up preaching and sit down and simply chant. Not in the beginning. That is imitation. He must be firmly convinced. So we have to study Caitanya Mahāprabhu's life. Except*-this is the clear and simple truth-except chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, there is no other business of the human being. So this preaching is also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This is preaching. That has been shown by all the disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. All the Gosvāmīs, Haridāsa Ṭhākura and others, only did that, how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, no other business. That is sannyāsa. He has no other business. To preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to convince Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that's all, no other business. We don't take part in politics, sociology, and mental speculation, "science," or so on, so on, all nonsense. We reject, all kicked out. That is the perfection. It is simply waste of time. These are all superficial. Just like waves in the sea. Where is the meaning? The waves are going on. Oh, very nice. You collected all these flowers? Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Great service. Amogha: From the public gardens. There is a big public garden. Prabhupāda: Oh. Amogha: The government plants for the city to look nice. Prabhupāda: But you are stealing. Amogha: No, not from anyone's house. Paramahaṁsa: From the government. Prabhupāda: Very, very nice flowers. Such a big rose I have never seen. Paramahaṁsa: In India they don't grow that big. They are very small. *Prabhupāda: Nobody takes care. The man also grows very small. There is no food, there is no soil. Poverty lives. Daridra*-doṣa guṇa-nāśe, when a person becomes poverty-stricken, all his quality goes away. He might have very good qualification but if... [break] Unfortunately, being misguided, this position of opulence, they are misusing it, and therefore becoming hippies. Simply misusing it. Instead of utilizing the position for development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are misusing it. So timely the movement has come to your country. Just try to apply in your practical life, preach all over the world, at least all over your own country. Here also, the Australians, they have got opulence. Try to relieve them. You are American or Australian? Jayadharma: I'm an Australian, Prabhupāda. Paramahaṁsa: Australian, he says. *Prabhupāda: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Rājarṣi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty*-stricken man cannot under... But there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ? And He instructed first to the sun-god. He is not ordinary person. He instructed later on to Arjuna. He is not ordinary person. Because one important person learns the science, he will preach it all over the earth. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has directly said they are not ordinary persons. So unless one is materially not ordinary, he cannot preach. All the Gosvāmīs, they were coming from respectable... And where Gauḍīya Maṭha came? These are third-class men, no position in their past life. Paramahaṁsa: Most of them just came from the villages. *Prabhupāda: That's all. Uneducated, half*-educated, poor, poverty-stricken. They could not do anything. Some of our Godbrothers I have beat them. (Like Tīrtha) (indistinct). In his previous life he had a big, big business organization. So therefore he has been able to organize. They will admit. They are coming from some third-class status of life. This is not tripe, this is fact. Paramahaṁsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Śrī*-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale, svayaṁ rūpa gosvāmī. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department. *Paramahaṁsa: It's very difficult in Kali*-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen... Prabhupāda: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rūpa Gosvāmī was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming? Paramahaṁsa: Because you're the expert. Prabhupāda: It is not just we. You have to become expert to convert another expert. If you are not experienced, how you can convert others? Paramahaṁsa: Is it true that you will end up converting people according to your own..., in other words, you convert people of your own caliber? Prabhupāda: Not own caliber, any caliber. That requires expert management. Paramahaṁsa: But if you become high quality or high class, then automatically you attract that type of person. Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do. You American people, you can do. That I am instructing. You can do. And actually, because some of you will cooperate the movement is going on. Therefore I came to America. When I found that in India no intelligent boys were coming, then I decided, "Let me go to America." Paramahaṁsa: Still, even after you went to America and brought back so many European and American disciples, still the Indians are so slow to come and join. *Prabhupāda: Because they have been... The disease is very chronic. They are not opulent. That diagnosis already given. They have become poverty*-stricken. So daridra-doṣa guṇa naśe. Although they are born in India, they have got many qualification, due to this poverty-stricken position, they... Their first business is how to... Because they have got family attachment, so they cannot sacrifice. They will work very, very hard. You have seen how they are going to office, how..., because they have got the responsibility of family. That is Indians another feature. They take family responsibility. In your country there is no such thing. There is no family. There is no family responsibility. In India still that old tradition is going on. Therefore they cannot sacrifice the family responsibility, although they are willing. And the whole thing is it is due to poverty-stricken position. They have got family responsibilities. They think, "If I go, then whole family will starve. How can I go?" That is the exact position. And to come to that stage, that "Let my family starve, I don't mind," that is very higher stage. That is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], "Oh, no responsibility, simply I have got respons..." That is not ordinary stage. You cannot expect these things from ordinary man. Jayadharma: A person may see somebody do that, may think that they're irresponsible. Prabhupāda: Yes, escaping, so many accusations. But with all these accusations one can do that. There is no harm. But that position is not for all. *Paramahaṁsa: Due to that poverty*-stricken condition, if someone does come to us, they usually want to get something from us. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. You find out this verse, tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer [SB 1.5.17]. Find out first the index. Paramahaṁsa: First Canto. Yellow. Yellow. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, here. Find out this verse: tyaktvā sva*-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ... Amogha: Prabhupāda: That's it. They are thinking, "I am doing my duty," but they do not gain anything. And a person doesn't care for any responsibility; he comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He gains something. Even if he falls down in immature stage, he gains something. But other man, he is doing his duty very nicely, but he is gaining nothing. You should read the purport. *Paramahaṁsa: "As far as the duties of mankind are concerned, there are innumerable duties. Every man is duty*-bound not only to his parents, family members, society, country, humanity, other living beings, the demigods, etc., but also to the great philosophers, poets, scientists, etc. It is enjoined in the scriptures that one can relinquish all such duties and surrender unto the service of the Lord. So if one does so and becomes successful in the discharge of his devotional service unto the Lord, it is well and good. But it so happens sometimes that one surrenders himself unto the service of the Lord by some temporary sentiment, and in the long run, due to so many other reasons, he falls down from the path of service by undesirable association. There are so many instances of this in the histories. Bharata Mahārāja was obliged to take his birth as a stag due to his intimate attachment to a stag. He thought of this stag when he died. As such, in the next birth he became a stag, although he did not forget the incidents of his previous birth. Similarly, Citraketu also fell down due to his offenses at the feet of Śiva. But in spite of all this, the stress is given here to surrendering unto the lotus feet of the Lord, even if there is a chance of falling down, because even though one falls down from the prescribed duties of devotional service, he will never forget the lotus feet of the Lord. Once engaged in the devotional service of the Lord, one will continue the service in all circumstances. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that even a small quantity of devotional service can save one from the most dangerous position. There are many instances of such examples in history. Ajāmila is one of them. Ajāmila in his early life was a devotee, but in his youth he fell down. Still, he was saved by the Lord at the end." Prabhupāda: Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is not loser; he is gainer. And if one person does not come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does his duty very nicely, he gains nothing. *Paramahaṁsa: Due to the so many rascal commenters on the Bhagavad*-gītā, in India all the Indians have a conception that the perfection of human life is to simply execute one's karma or to do his duty to his family, etc, and therefore they're wasting their time in this way and completely neglecting devotional service. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Prabhupāda: You bring so many varieties of food: And my duty is to eat. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. So... Prabhupāda: So now let me perform my duty. (end) Room Conversation with Kim Cornish -- May 8, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: ...psychology, metaphysics. Kim: Yes. Amogha: He was telling me that the paper he's writing for his master's degree is comparing a German philosopher with Buddhist philosophy. *Kim: Which, as far as I can gather, the self/no*-self thing, Buddhism was denying that you're the ātman, I think. Could you perhaps say something about that? Amogha: He's asking about the conception of denial of the self. Kim: Of the ātman, yes. Amogha: Ātman. The finishing of ātman. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So how can you deny ātman? Kim: In Hindu philosophy, what is the nature of the ātman? *Prabhupāda: Nature of ātman is eternal. Eternity, knowledge and blissfulness. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt: (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12) ātmā is joy, ānanda, blissful. Kim: I've read some of the *Upaniṣads* where they say that ātman is Brahman? Prabhupāda: Why have I placed this flower here? Why do I like this flower? What is the reason? Kim: Because it's beautiful, perhaps? Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you want to enjoy. This is the nature of ātmā. I want to enjoy. This is blissfulness. Then, why are you trying to become a philosopher? Kim: For understanding. Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore knowledge. Why do you not like to die? Because you are eternal. Therefore ātmā's nature is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. This is knowledge. Sat cit ānanda. Do you know Sanskrit? Kim: No, but some words. Prabhupāda: That is ātmā's nature. Sat cit ānanda. Eternal, full of knowledge, and blissful. Kim: A question. Is there, is it the ātman... Prabhupāda: Just hear. Kim: Ātman is attached to each person? Prabhupāda: Just hear. Amogha: He says hear for a moment. Kim: I'm listening, of course. Prabhupāda: Ātmā's nature. One question should be understood, thoroughly. You have asked what is the nature of ātmā. The ātmā's nature is that he is eternal. He never dies. Never takes birth. He is already existing. Just like, you were a child, you were a baby. The body is no longer existing. Your childhood body is no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. You remember your childhood days. Therefore, you are different from the body. The body is passed away, but you remember that you had a body like that. Therefore you exist. You know that you'll become an old man. So this body will not exist. Another body you will get, old age body. Therefore you will exist; the body will change. Now try to understand this fact first of all, and if you cannot understand, ask questions. Kim: The ātman, there is one to a person, or there is only one ātman? Prabhupāda: You are ātmā, I am ātmā, we are not one. You are individual, I am individual. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. So how one? Kim: I beg your pardon? Prabhupāda: How it is one? Amogha: He says that you are individual and he is individual, so how can they be one? Kim: How can they be one? I see. Yes. I was wondering how the ātman is associated with each individual. Is it the... Isn't it right to say the person is the ātman? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kim: The person is the ātman. And to each person there is one ātman associated. Prabhupāda: You are a person and I am a person. You are changing bodies and I am changing bodies. Kim: And through all the changes there is the ātman that continues. Prabhupāda: Who is here first of all? You are a person. I am a person. You are hearing, I am speaking. We are two persons. So why you say one? Kim: Two bodies. Prabhupāda: Yes, two bodies, just like two dresses. You are differently dressed, I am differently dressed, but that does not mean that we are one. We are one as ātmā. Just like you are Australian, I am Indian, but as human being we are one. But as Australian, as Indian, we are different. Therefore we are one and different at the same time. Kim: Is the ātman... Prabhupāda: Ātmā as spirit soul is one. Kim: Is one. Prabhupāda: But as individual soul they are different. Kim: And the ātman is just with respect to consciousness, or can we talk about... Prabhupāda: No. Kim: ...an ātman without consciousness. Prabhupāda: Consciousness is the symptom of ātmā. Because the ātmā is within your body, therefore your consciousness is there. Now, because the ātmā is within the body, if I pinch or if you pinch my body, I feel pains and pleasures. As soon as the ātmā is not there, it will be cut with a chopper, there is no protest. So, that ātmā is present within this body, that is understood by the presence of consciousness. Just like we are here in this room, but this light is the reflection of the sunshine. We understand there is sun in the sky. The light and heat we are feeling, that means the sun is in the sky. Similarly, our consciousness and knowledge, etc., are there, that means that the ātmā is there. The same ātmā, when it will go out of this body, there will be no more consciousness, no more knowledge, no more feelings of pains and pleasures. Kim: Can one say what qualities the ātman has? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Eternity, knowledge and blissfulness. Kim: And does Hindu philosophy say anything about... Prabhupāda: Don't talk Hindu philosophy, talk of philosophy. Kim: Philosophy. How the ātman came into being? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kim: How did the ātman come into being? *Prabhupāda: Ātmā is not coming into being, it is already there. But at the present moment it is accepting different types of bodies. Just like your this dress is available in the market. And you are also there, so you purchase the dress and put on. Similarly, the different types of bodies are already there. You according to your desire accept one type of body, and you appear in that body. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and you have to accept one of them. According to desire. According to your work. You are working. Everyone is working. Now, according to the work and association, he is creating his body. Just like if you infect some type of disease, then you'll have to accept that disease. So we are working ways-we are individuals*-and according to that work we are creating our next body. If you are working in a godly way, then you'll get your body next as god, and if you are working in a dogly way, then you'll get your body as dog. So, by nature's way, evolution, we come through 800 millions of forms of life, then nature gives us a chance to accept this human form of body. In this body, our consciousness being advanced, if we try we can understand what is the problem of life, why we have accepted birth, death, old age and disease, how to get out of these, how to revive our original nature of body and again become eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. This is the chance of the human body. Therefore you are a philosopher because you are in the human body, but a dog cannot be a philosopher. He may be a very big dog, can bark very loudly, he has got very good strength, can create big disturbance, but he cannot understand philosophy. That is not possible. But a human being can understand. Therefore he should be given chance to understand the philosophy of life. And that is Vedas. Kim: That is? Prabhupāda: *Vedas*. Kim: Oh, *Vedas*, yes. Prabhupāda: The *Vedas* are there for understanding by the human society. And if he lives like a cat and dog, then he spoils his life. We should take advantage of the Vedic knowledge and make our life successful. This is real philosophy. Kim: I'm not very familiar with the Hindu scriptures, but I have read some *Upaniṣads*, and there's the idea that somehow ātman is Brahman? I don't understand that at all, so perhaps you could say something about that? Prabhupāda: Which Upaniṣad are you reading? *Kim: I've read the Chāndogya, the*-I don't know the pronunciations. Prabhupāda: There are one hundred and eight *Upaniṣads*. Kim: I don't know the pronunciations, that's the difficulty. Prabhupāda: Have you read *Īśopaniṣad*? Kim: Pardon? Prabhupāda: *Īśopaniṣad*. Kim: I'm familiar with the name, but that's about all. Prabhupāda: Give him *Īśopaniṣad*. Read from the beginning. Have you read this book? This is the first Upaniṣad that is read. Can you read Sanskrit? Kim: No. Prabhupāda: Transliteration? Amogha: You just read the sound. Kim: Prabhupāda: Read the translation. Kim: "The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance." Prabhupāda: Now read the purport. After reading the translation do you understand everything? Kim: No. (reads purport to) "...and Paramātmā or Supersoul realization is the realization of His sat and cit features." I don't understand that. I read the words, but... *Prabhupāda: It requires elucidation. "Complete whole" means, just like your body is complete whole, and there are so many other things, there are so many holes in the body, there are so many hairs on the body, there are so many hairs on the head, so many fingers, eyes, ears*-so many things-but the body is a complete unit, working as a complete machine. And there are so many things. Similarly, the whole cosmos is complete, exactly like this body is a machine. Similarly the whole cosmos is a big machine. It is complete. One sun is there and keeping everything complete. The day and night, the seasonal changes, the equator, the temperature, the moonlight, the other planets, we living beings, the vegetables-everything is complete by God. And because the sun is there. Similarly, this body, machine, is complete. And the soul is there, it is working nicely. The body is also a creation, and the universe is also a creation, and the brain which has created these things, He is complete. Therefore He has created these complete units. That is the idea. Pūrṇam idaṁ [Iso Invocation]. Pūrṇaḥ means complete. And because He is complete, the Creator, He has no defect; therefore He can create everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ, pūrṇam adaḥ, pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. And He is so complete that pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya, from the complete, if you take the whole complete, still He is complete. Here is a glass of water; *I am drinking. Drinking part by part. And when it is finished, the water is finished, no more complete. But He is so complete, that just like the sun, the temperature is being distributed for million and millions of years, still it is full of temperature. Here, unless the electric power is there, it is not complete. But there is power in the sunshine. It is a reservoir of so much temperature and light, that in history millions and millions of years it is distributing, the seasonal changes are going on, the green foliage is coming again, the snow and rain is coming, so many things are going on account of temperature. Any machine is rolling, just like as soon as there is power the machine is rolling. In all machines, your bodily machine, my bodily machine, and electric machines and other powered machines*-everything is going on. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. And in spite of taking so much energy from the sun, it is still full of light and energy. This is one of the creations of the Supreme. Now how much perfect is the Supreme? Its one of the creations, sun, is maintaining the whole universe. And there are many millions of universes, and each of them has got a sun to conduct the business. And all these suns are created by somebody. How much complete He is? You can just imagine. That is God. God is not such a cheap thing. People become God, "I am God." You are a nonsense rascal. What you can do? These are bluff. They do not know what is God. Here is God-complete. Pūrṇam adaḥ, pūrṇam idaṁ [Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]. The whole creation is complete, still He is complete. The energy is coming from here, still He is complete. This energy also. A glass of water, I throw the glass, and water again is coming. Again I throw, again it is coming. Incessantly coming, all the energies. This is the idea of God. Pūrṇam idaṁ [Iso Invocation], pūrṇam adaḥ, pūrṇam idaṁ, pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya, pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. One minus one equals one, not zero. One plus one equals one, not two. This is complete. This is the idea of God. Just like the ocean. You take many thousands of buckets of water out, still it is complete. And again you put many buckets, thousands, millions of buckets of water, it is the same depth. This is another example. Material example. This is complete. You take millions of buckets of water from the ocean, you'll find not a drop is lost. And you put millions of buckets of water again, not a drop is increased. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate. If you try to take out the whole ocean, still it will remain the ocean. This is the idea of complete. Kim: One more question. What do you think of the use of drugs as an aid? Prabhupāda: Drugs? That is another side of madness. Just like, human being, after the evolution of 8 million forms of bodies, he comes to human body to understand philosophy, these *Vedas*. So instead of utilizing life for that purpose, he wants to become again like the cats and dogs, and therefore he takes drugs. He is already cat and dog. He's no better than cats and dogs, because he has no interest in this knowledge. He was meant for this knowledge but he remains like cats and dogs, therefore he is not satisfied, therefore he takes drugs to forget himself. This is the philosophy of drugs. He was meant for becoming satisfied by taking this knowledge. He does not get the chance. Nobody leads him to this knowledge. He remains like cats and dogs, but as a human being if he lives like cats and dogs, he'll never be happy. Because there is no happiness, therefore he takes drugs, to forget. This is the drug philosophy. Drug philosophy means to forget one's present suffering. He must suffer, because his consciousness is developed. He must take this Vedic knowledge, but he does not take. Therefore he is dissatisfied, and to counteract the dissatisfaction he takes drugs. This is drug philosophy. Kim: Perhaps often it is that, but... Prabhupāda: Not perhaps. There is no question of perhaps. We want to speak factually. Kim: But Patañjali says that siddhis, powers, can be produced by drugs, so perhaps... Prabhupāda: Drugs are meant for medicinal purposes, not for drinking or taking generally. Every herb, every vegetable, is a drug meant for curing a particular disease. This is nature's gift. Just like if you cut your finger, you take little grass and take a little juice and apply it. It will act as tincturizing, immediately. They are meant for this purpose. These vegetable, drugs, are meant for when you are sick or disturbed, you can utilize. Not for intoxication. Just like opium. If you have severe type of dysentery, diarrhea, a little opium it will immediately cure. But opium is not meant for using as an intoxication. There is use of opium. Morphia, opium, they have got use at a certain time, not for using it for intoxication. That is foolish. Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can drugs sometimes be used to help us for spiritual realization? Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. Spiritual realization means knowledge. Not to become intoxicated. The spiritual... Just like this is spiritual knowledge. So what the intoxicated person will understand? Even a sane man cannot understand. Then how he will understand in intoxication? It is foolishness. They are suffering material pangs. By taking drugs the suffering is forgotten, and he is thinking that is the solution. Spiritual means negation of material distress. So he is always suffering from material distress. By taking drug, temporarily he forgets it. Therefore he misunderstands "This is spiritual." That's not spiritual. Then committing suicide is also spiritual? One man is suffering, and the suffering is so great he cannot tolerate, therefore he sometimes commits suicide. Is that committing suicide spiritual? Spiritual means negation of material distresses, that's a fact. But that is a different thing. When you come to the spiritual platform, not by artificially forgetting your material suffering. That is not spiritual. Kim: Another question. I asked earlier about the nature of ātman, now the nature of Brahman? *Prabhupāda: Brahman means the greatest, so as the sky, to our experience the sky is greater. What is the sky? The sky is a combination of small atoms. Do you know that? So if the sky is Brahman, then it is a combination of small atoms, then the small atoms are also Brahman? Just like a huge stack of rice, they are called rice, and a small grain of rice, that is also rice. So therefore there are two kinds of Brahman*-the component parts of the Brahman they are also Brahman, and whole Brahman is also Brahman. Do you follow? Kim: I hear the words. Prabhupāda: Why don't you understand? Kim: I follow the analogy of the rice. *Prabhupāda: The sky, the Brahman. What is the sky? A combination of atoms. So the component parts they are also Brahman, otherwise how it is Brahman? Unless the component parts are Brahman, how is it Brahman? It is a combination of many component parts, small Brahman. Param Brahman. Param Brahman means the supreme. The sea water, ocean water. Ocean water is very big, that is Brahman. Big means Brahman. But what is this ocean water? Small molecules of water. Sometimes we see the sea waves, small molecules, cool. So it is combination of small Brahman. So, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. And we are a small, very small fragmental portion of Brahman. How small are we? One ten*-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. We cannot see even the tip of the hair, very small point. And you have to divide it into ten thousand parts. And that one part-you, I, everyone. So small. So everything is Brahman. It is said sarva khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. Why? Because the Brahman is very big, but what is this big? The big is a combination of small molecules, atoms. What is your idea of Brahman? Kim: From my own understanding I took it to be just the world, everything that is, but I don't understand. Prabhupāda: Not clear idea. Kim: I had an experience in New Zealand... *Prabhupāda: So therefore you have to experience from authority-what is Brahman. This is explanation of Brahman. So this Brahman realization is first, then Paramātmā realization, then God realization. Just like you realize the sunshine, very big, all over the universe, but you have to see wherefrom the sunshine is coming*-the sun globe. That is localized. You are seeing just like a small ball, but actually this big thing, sunshine, is coming from it. Is it not? So which is important, the sunshine or the globe? Kim: They are both important, but the sun is what produces the sunshine. *Prabhupāda: Similarly God the person is important, and by His bodily rays the whole thing is going on. Yasya prabhā prabhavato [Bs. 5.40]. Brahmaṇo hi... Find out this verse*-brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham. Amogha: Prabhupāda: Purport? Amogha: Purport: "The constitution of Brahman is immortality, imperishability, eternity, and happiness. Brahman is the beginning of transcendental realization; Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is the middle, the second stage in transcendental realization; *and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate realization of the Absolute Truth. Therefore both Paramātmā and the impersonal Brahman are within the Supreme Person. It is explained in the seventh chapter that material nature is a manifestation of the inferior energy of the Supreme Lord. The Lord impregnates the inferior material nature with the fragments of the superior nature, and that is the spiritual touch in the material nature. When a living entity, conditioned by this material nature, begins the cultivation of spiritual knowledge, he elevates himself from the position of material existence and gradually rises up to the Brahman conception of the Supreme. This attainment of the Brahman conception of life is the first stage of self*-realization. At this stage, the Brahman-realized person is transcendental to the material position, but he is not actually perfect in Brahman realization. If he works, he can continue to stay in the Brahman position and then gradually rise up to the Paramatama realization and then to the realization of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are many examples of this in Vedic literature. The four Kumaras were situated first in the impersonal Brahman conception of truth, but then they gradually rose to the platform of devotional service. One who cannot elevate himself beyond the impersonal conception of Brahman runs the risk of falling down. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that although a person may rise to the stage of impersonal Brahman, without going further, with no information of the Supreme Person, his intelligence is not perfectly clear. Therefore, in spite of being raised to the Brahman platform, there is the chance of falling down if one is not engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Vedic language it is also said, parasya vai samhi evāyam labhvāndamhī bhavati: when one understands the personality of God, the reservoir of pleasure, Kṛṣṇa, he actually becomes transcendentally blissful." Prabhupāda: That is required. Our nature is blissfulness. Unless we reach Kṛṣṇa, talk with Him, dance with Him, eat with Him, enjoy life, our perfection is imperfect, not complete. Simply Brahman realization, just like simply to see, a child can see also the sunshine, but that does not mean he knows what is the sun, although the sunshine is coming from the sun. So unless you understand what is the actual sun, what is the person within the sun globe, our knowledge is imperfect. Simply realization of the big volume of sunshine, is not perfect. It is also light, and the sun globe is also light, heat. But this heat and light is not sufficient knowledge of the complete heat and light there. That is the difference between Brahman realization and God realization. Kim: What can be said about God realization? *Prabhupāda: I have given the example. Just like this sunshine is coming from the sun globe. Within the sun globe there is the president of the planet. Just like here on this planet you have got some president. Here there are many presidents, because it is hodgepodge, chaotic. But there everything is systematic. There is one person, his name is Vivasvān. He's the predominating deity. Kṛṣṇa went to see him and talked with him about Bhagavad*-gītā. He's a person, and there the people, they are also persons. Just like in this planet. But here the body is predominantly made of earth, and there the body is predominantly of fire. Therefore it is so glowing. The glowing temperature, heat and light, is coming from the person, their body is made of glowing heat or fire. There are five material elements: earth, water, fire, air, and ether. In some planet the earth is prominent, in some planet the water is prominent, in some planets the fire is prominent. So the sun planet is prominent with fire. There the bodies made of the inhabitants there are fire. So all the combination of the fiery effulgence is the heat of the sun globe and that is being distributed. It is in the (indistinct). You can see and realize. Everything is there. If you study nature you will get everything. (end) Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth Amogha: They think catching fish is great sport, great fun. *Prabhupāda: They haven't got any business. They must do all of these sinful activities. That is the defect of the modern civilization*-keeping all men in darkness. Jayadharma: Does that mean that the people that catch the fish have to also become fish? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And who will become fish? That they do not know, how the transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fish are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, this dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working they do not know. All darkness, mūḍhā na abhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ parama. The birds and beasts are also catching fish, and they are also catching. What is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization. (pause) The smell. What is the smell? Amogha: If we go up there, I don't think it will be there. Prabhupāda: Some decomposed things? And this is not good for you. (pause) They fish this side? Amogha: The birds? Seagulls. Prabhupāda: He has got the human body. He also... These birds are catching fish. He does not know that he has got other business. Amogha: At the school, the students say, "Why not eat fish? Jesus was passing out fish, in the Bible. And we all catch fish. We like to catch fish." And then we tell them about meat. So, they think that we are loosing a great pleasure, that we cannot eat meat. *Prabhupāda: You tell them, that you will be very merry*-that's all right. But do you want to stop these merry affairs all of a sudden? Ask them, what will they reply? Amogha: They'll say "No, we don't want to stop." Prabhupāda: Then, the nature will stop it. What are you going to arrange for that? Amogha: They say, "We don't know what will happen after, so we'll just enjoy and have fun now, as much as possible." Prabhupāda: So why have you come to school? Why don't you play all day? Amogha: Because we need to get a good job so we... *Prabhupāda: Then, they are thinking of future. Now we are thinking of the future. That is ignorance*-that they do not know what is future life. They are thinking of the future, that's a fact, but because they are kept in darkness, about future life, they are doing all this irresponsible work. Amogha: But nowadays people usually only go to school because the law requires it. Then at the age of... *Prabhupāda: Law requires or not requires, they are going to school with some future hope. So every sane man should think of the future. But because they are kept in darkness, they are all insane. They do not know what is the future of life. That is the defect. Everyone is thinking for future, but he does not know what is future after death. That is their ignorance. And Bhagavad*-gītā begins that as the child has future, the boy has future, the young man has future, similarly the old man has also future. So that they do not know. That is their ignorance. Amogha: A lot of them will accept, "Yes, there is future after death," but... Prabhupāda: That he does not know, what is that future. Amogha: "Oh, yeah, we haven't discovered that right yet." Paramahaṁsa: Many of them say we cannot prove there is any life after death. Prabhupāda: Yes, this if proof. Just as the boy is there and the father is there, the boy is going to become father. This is future. Both of them are there. The boy is going to be the father, and the father is going to be the grandfather. Where there is no future? The rascals, they do not know, say that, but there is future. How can you stop it? The boy is going to be father, the father is going to be grandfather. This is future. Amogha: But then he dies, and they cannot see any future after that. Prabhupāda: Your seeing has no power. This is no argument, "I cannot see." I cannot see the other side. That does not mean there is nothing. This is all rascaldom. He has become authority "I want to see." What you can see? Now this is Indian Ocean. On the other side there is India, and other islands, but you cannot see it. Does it mean there is nothing? So, these are foolish questions. Because they are rascals they put such questions and nonsense. That is the proof that they are rascals. They are simply taking authority his little vision. That's all. What is your vision? Why don't you see what is the other side? But does it mean there is nothing because you cannot see? WHen one says "I cannot see," that means he is a rascal number one. He's believing so much upon his seeing. He does not know that he is a most insignificant person, so there is no value of his seeing. That he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal. Is it not? He's believing his eyes so greatly that "I cannot see." And what is the value of your seeing? What you can see? Amogha: But there are so many people who come to us and say, "Well, we can see." But we don't believe they can see. Prabhupāda: What they can see? Amogha: We don't think anyone can see. *Prabhupāda: No. Nobody can see. Therefore Vedas say your seeing should be through the book of knowledge. That is seeing. Not with your these rascal eyes. What is the value of these rascal eyes? We know that there is, through books, through geography, we know that the other side is India. Not by seeing with these eyes, by touching it or by smelling it. These senses are useless. But these rascals depend on the senses*-sense perception. Therefore they are rascals. Imperfect sense perception they believe too much. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know the value of the senses. Mūḍhā. Paśyati jñāna-cakṣuṣā. That is seeing, jñāna cakṣuṣa, by the eyes of knowledge, not by these imperfect senses. Paśyati jñāna cakṣuṣa. Everyone is anxious for the future. Why do they keep bank balance? Thinking of the future. Why they make insurance? Why they make hospital insurance? Everyone is thinking of the future. But because he is rascal, he is thinking simply for this span of life. Tathā dehāntara prāptir. Again you have to accept another body. That they do not know. So rascal. Simply calculating for this span of life. Paramahaṁsa: We accept that, but in the next life we have a new future. This life we have this future, and in the next life we have... *Prabhupāda: Then suppose you become one..., what is called? Clam? And enter into this. Will that be a very good future? You have seen the, what is called, the crab (makes noise). They know everything*-how to defend, how to eat, how to... You like that type of life? Paramahaṁsa: Well I don't like it now, but if I was a crab I might like it. Prabhupāda: Become a crab. That's all right. This is their solace. This is ignorance. You don't like it, but "When I become crab, I'll like it." That is māyā's covering. Otherwise he cannot live. If the crab thinks that "I was king in my past life. Now I have become a crab," it would be horrible for him. Therefore he forgets. That is a concession of māyā. Forget whatever you have had. Just like here they try to forget by drinking, intoxication. That kind of forgetfulness is also happiness for the rascals. Nobody wants to be degraded. But if in degradation one forgets his past life, if that kind of happiness is happiness, you can do it. This is for the fools. The dog forgets that he was a prime minister in his past life, and his statue is now being worshiped in the memorial hall. And he has become a dog. (If) this kind of happiness is happiness, let him take it. Actually it is like this. Paramahaṁsa: Well, all of these things are relative anyway. So whether I am a dog or human being, it doesn't really make much difference, because I'm still existing. Prabhupāda: Still, you don't want to become a dog when you are a human being. Paramahaṁsa: But when I'm a dog I wouldn't want to become a human being either. Prabhupāda: Yes, this means happiness in ignorance. That is ass. He's bearing two tons of load, and if he is thinking "I am happy," it is nice. Therefore they are called ass. Accepting distress as happiness. Therefore they are called ass. That is the difference between ass and human being. Amogha: I saw some asses in the university yesterday. Asses and monkeys. One professor was working so hard he was almost crying, because he had so many exams to mark. So great burden on his mind. Paramahaṁsa: Isn't it, then, if one is happy, that's all that counts? If his happiness is also relative. So if I am a monkey... Prabhupāda: No. There is absolute happiness. You do not know that. We are meant for that, because we are living beings. But on account of your ass quality you do not like to understand. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti. Amogha: My parents used to tell me that nothing can be absolutely true, because everything is really finer shades of grey. Prabhupāda: He has no idea what is absolute truth. He is in darkness. He does not know there is absolute world. This is the relative worlds. Amogha: They think that people who say there is Absolute Truth have not observed the other thoughts of other people, so they haven't seen everything. Prabhupāda: What is that other thought? We know everyone's thought. We know everyone's thought. Amogha: In the university newspaper I was reading, all their discussion is about things like homosexuality is all right or not all right. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? They are discussing? Amogha: Yes. In the newspaper articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights. And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over the world there are homosexuals, and also they are arguing over Palestine and Israel. And sometimes (indistinct) In Melbourne there was fighting between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they have in the newspapers. Paramahaṁsa: Even in Los Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They're called Militant Homosexuals. Amogha: In one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, "Of course not. This is only a perversion." And they said, "This is nature's way to stop overpopulation," because there won't be any children. So much foolish. Prabhupāda: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing. Amogha: It seems that step by step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting more and more degradation, and makind it legal, everything. *Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first*-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing. Paramahaṁsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out. Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmī at the same time. So they would collect much laxmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books. Prabhupāda: Free? *Amogha: Yes. First they collected the money elsewhere, then they gave it away to the hospitals and prisons. One boy he collected in one day, he won the contest, he collected seven hundred and fifty dollars in one day. Australian dollars. That's almost one thousand U.S. dollars. I don't remember how many books, very, very many books he gave away also. Big books, hardbound books, Kṛṣṇa books, Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda: So, you are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is very good. These rascals are in ignorance and you are trying to enlighten them. Very good service. [break] After reading a book does anybody come and ask questions? Do they receive regularly letters and enquiries? *Amogha: Yes. Here they do. I answer many of the letters when they come. Last week, just before we came over to Perth, one boy wrote a letter, he said, "I cannot come to your temple, but I am a student in Geelong"*-that's one city near Melbourne-"And when I come to Melbourne I always get your Back to Godhead magazine." So he said, "How can I become a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?" So I wrote him a letter telling him about getting more books and chanting. And one man wrote us a letter from New Zealand. He said, "I have Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam parts one, two and three. Can you please tell me how many other parts I can get, because I want to have them all." Prabhupāda: That is very good. *Amogha: And in the schools they have comparative religion courses, and they usually write us a letter saying, "Can you please tell us, for our comparative religions class, what you believe and what is behind your movement?" And things like this. And if they are close enough we usually go there, or if not we write them and send them some literature. Everyone in the classes I find in the schools, everyone is bored with the ideas they are teaching. Everyone has heard it all, and they are bored. But when we come, they become very interested. Just like at one school. We had one hour. We showed the film, then we talked and answered questions for one hour, and then the bell rang. It was time for their next class. So the teacher said, "Students, shall we go to the next class or stay here?" And they said, "Oh, let's stay here. This is much better." So they stayed for one more hour. Their teaching is so dry, but we handed out mahā*-prasādam, and it was very interesting. Usually in each class there are three or four students who are especially pious, and they come, they stay afterwards and ask many questions. We can also see that they are more affected by the understanding than the other students. Prabhupāda: This road is good. There is no traffic. Paramahaṁsa: All of the temples they are receiving letters regularly from (indistinct) Prabhupāda: It is not meant for mass people. Only selected fortunate. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "If I could make one person to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, then my mission would be successful." It is not for mass person. Only the fortunate they can do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by introducing saṅkīrtana, even the mass can take part. When there is saṅkīrtana, everyone joins. And by joining in that way, they will become purified. Amogha: In Sydney, the city council once tried to stop us, legally, from chanting in the streets. First they arrested us two years ago, but then they spent many dollars of tax money to prepare a case for the court, and they didn't even tell us. They had the court session, and the judge ruled that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting in the streets is good. It adds color to the city and is not illegal. Why you are saying this is illegal? This is their right. And it makes the city more colorful." Prabhupāda: Nice judge. God gave him sense. *Amogha: So actually many people like to see the chanting now. When we go downtown with a big party on Friday and Saturday nights, when they have late*-night shopping and movies, many people clap, and they dance a little bit. Sometimes mocking, but also one can see they're affected. And usually if we stop in front of a cinema and chant there, fifty or more people they just stop and they stare, and they can't think of anything else. They just watch and watch and watch. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of Kṛṣṇa's name. Prabhupāda: There is a natural tendency to hear. Artificially they stopped. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti. Appeals to the heart immediately. Unless he is too much sinful it will appeal immediately. Amogha: In Sydney there was one teacher in a school, a private school, for rich men's sons, very, very wealthy. And he is the head of general studies and the school chaplain. A Christian. One boy from the school became a devotee, although he still went to the school. And the discussion came up in class about what the Hare Kṛṣṇaś believe. So he invited us to come. Prabhupāda: The clergyman? Amogha: Yes, school chaplain, and he liked it so much. I remember he was taking notes, and he was smiling every time one point came up that he liked. So he asked us to come again the next week, and again, and then the next time we went through six classes in one day. For about two months he asked us again and again, and then to show the film. And he was always taking notes. He would say, "What was that again? Part and parcel?" Prabhupāda: He is sincere. Amogha: Yes, he was very sincere. Then one day he came to the temple on Sunday because I invited him. He wanted to make sure, he wanted to find out the difference between us and Christianity. But he was convinced in the end that the main philosophy is the same point, the same purpose. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: And he ate a big plate of prasādam. He liked it very much. So he was saying that perhaps we can have some regular comparative religion course in the school, and when we show the students, tell them about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement as a study, about, as he calls it, our religion, so they can also come in a bus to the temple. Prabhupāda: Very good. Amogha: The students will come in a bus and see how we chant and have some prasādam. Prabhupāda: It is a good reception. So that is still going on? Amogha: It hasn't started yet. This is the plan. But sometimes he hesitates, because he has doubts. Prabhupāda: Superstition. That is superstition. Amogha: He gets in bad association, and then he begins to doubt a little bit, I think. Prabhupāda: You do your duty, that's all. (pause) What is this? Stone or something? Amogha: Part of the street I think. I think it's sandstone from the beach. (pause) Many politicians are afraid that Australia may be attacked by the Communists. Everyone is very much afraid of what could happen in the future, because the United States is becoming weaker. Prabhupāda: Now they are indulging homosex, how they will become strong? And the students, they are discussing, that means they are having. The stamina is being lost. Now what they have created, it will be lost. Amogha: They all seem to think that spiritual life is something to think about, something... Prabhupāda: Not very important. Amogha: Yes. They think it's not practical action. They think practical action is politics or some physical thing like the hospital. Money. *Prabhupāda: It means they have no idea of the spiritual identity. Their idea is that matter is important. But they do not know that matter is not important, but the spirit is important. That is moving the matter. It is very easy to understrand. Because the spirit soul is within this body, it is moving. But they cannot understand*-dull-headed. What is that force that is moving this body? That they do not consider to understand. Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When people in the street hear Kṛṣṇa's name, the chanting, or they get some literature, does that mean they will not take birth as an animal? *Prabhupāda: No. They'll get birth in a good family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. If they simply appreciate "It is very nice," then in the next life, human life is guaranteed. In a very nice family. Simply if he appreciates, "Yes, it is very nice"*-that's all. Then he'll get another chance. Amogha: Many people think the pictures are very nice. Prabhupāda: Anything they say nice, that means it is guaranteed, next life. Or even in this life it will definitely help. As soon as he reads some pages, then it is guaranteed. Those who are enquiring, that means they are liking. Their life is guaranteed. Amogha: One man who joined us about Rathayātrā time last year was a solicitor. He used to buy our books but he never read them. But he would keep them on his bookshelf. And he used to always think, "Those are such beautiful books." He used to think like that. Prabhupāda: This is appreciation. Amogha: He never got time to read it. Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. If he keeps the books with appreciation, that makes his life sure, insured. He immediately becomes in touch with God. Who keeps the book with reverence and love, immediately he becomes in touch with God. Because these books are representative of God. Amogha: When we go to a school, I first ask, "How many students have seen us chanting in the steets?" Immediately they all raise their hands. *Prabhupāda: It is a very nice service you are doing. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied, hari*-toṣaṇa. As soon as Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, your preaching is perfect. (end) Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Carol Cameron from the University of West Australia. She has a degree in Social Work, in Arts, and she's working on a Master's Degree in Anthropology. In this degree her paper is on the subject of the influence of Hindu and Buddhist mysticism on the West. So she would like to ask you some questions. This is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Carol: I would like to know why in the beginning why you came to the West. I know a bit about your background, but not very much. Why you saw the need to come. *Prabhupāda: That I was speaking. Of course, it is very strong words. That Western people they are claiming very civilized, but I have got objection. Therefore I have come to the West. Because, for example, the animal*-killing. The Western people are mostly Christians. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said that "Thou shall not kill." But the result was that two thousand years passed, but the people of the Western countries, they are still killing. So when they have accepted Christianity? What is your answer? Carol: But the actual original scriptures aren't enacted in Western life. Prabhupāda: I mean to say that Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." So, what kind of men were there that Lord Christ had to request them not to kill? That means they were killers. Suppose if somebody's thief, and if I give him some good instruction, I say "You should not commit theft." That means you are thief. You are already. Otherwise why I say that "Thou shall not commit theft"? A naughty child is disturbing. I say, "My dear child, don't do this." Similarly, when Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," that means he said amongst people who were in the habit of killing. Is it not? Carol: Hmm. Prabhupāda: Now, after taking instruction from Christ, first of all they killed Christ. That means they could not understand the instruction. Therefore their first business was to kill the instructor. And after that, two thousand years passed, still they are killing. So when they have accepted the teachings of Lord Christ? Can you answer this? Carol: So you think the Christian faith hasn't been reflected in the behavior of Western people. Prabhupāda: This is practical. You are maintaining huge slaughterhouses, regular killing. So, you took instruction from Christ, "Thou shall not kill." You first of all killed him, and then the killing process is going on among the animals, and declaring wars every now and then. So the killing business is going on regularly. In your regular life also. You are maintaining big, big slaughterhouses. Then when you accepted the instruction of Christ? That I want to know. What is that date? Carol: Do you see any hope for the world? We seem to be moving towards destruction. Prabhupāda: No, my... You just explain. Amogha: He's asking you when did this civilization actually accept the teachings of Christ? Carol: When have they? Not overall at all, only in small pockets. Never overall. Prabhupāda: Then why you are claiming that you are Christian? Just like you are having cross. That is the sign that you killed Christ. The cross is the killing symbol of Christ. Carol: This is the resurrection symbol. Prabhupāda: Maybe. (laughter) Carol: But it's not only Christian symbol... Prabhupāda: But many, many priestly order, they carry the cross. Cross is the sign when Lord Jesus Christ was killed. Is it not? Carol: It is, but that symbol is used in a lot of ways. *Prabhupāda: That means how you killed Lord Jesus Christ. That is the sign. That reminds you that you killed. You accuse the Jewish people "They killed," but you are also killing. Although you are claiming Christian. Therefore I want to know*-you are a learned scholar-when you abided by the order of Lord Jesus Christ? That is my question. When? Amogha: When did you abide by the orders of Jesus Christ? Carol: When did I? Prabhupāda: Every one of you, Western countries. And if you have abided by the order of Jesus Christ, then why you are systematically killing? The order is, "Thou shall not kill." Carol: It reminds me of the *Gītā*, you know? Where Arjuna is on the battlefield about to commit an organized sort of killing against his relatives. Prabhupāda: No, two thousand years passed, but you could not accept the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. And you are all claiming that you are Christian. When did you accept Christianity? That is my question. Because you have disobeyed the order of Christ. So when did you accept? Two thousand years passed. Hmm? Who will answer this question? Jayadharma: Never. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Jayadharma: They never accepted. Carol: Hmm. What is the main part of your philosophy? Is it based on the Vedānta school? Prabhupāda: No. This is no question of philosophy. You could not accept the simple instruction. Then where is the question of philosophy? Carol: The question of love. Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot understand the principles of life and morality, Jesus Christ's instruction that "Thou shall not kill." So how you become philosopher? Carol: How is the love to be understood? Between people or through inner sort of communication with a higher self? Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda said that you could not understand the simple instruction, so where is the question of understanding philosophy? Not love. Philosophy. *Prabhupāda: You have no love, because you are accustomed to kill. Philosophy begins when you know that everyone is part and parcel of God, and everyone should be given the full facilities to live without injuring anyone for one's personal benefit. Paṇḍitaḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. A paṇḍita, philosopher, means learned scholar. Not fools and rascals can become philosopher. Those who are learned scholar, thoughtful, they can become philosopher. But if one has no knowledge how to behave with other living entities, what is the meaning of becoming a philosopher? Carol: How would you go about teaching this idea of love? Prabhupāda: Love means that I want to eat something, and if I love somebody, then I will see that my beloved also eats. If you take something from your beloved, naturally the lovers present things. Just a boy loves a girl. He presents something to the girl. So, if you accept presentation by others, we should give him also something. And, if I have got some confidential thing, I must disclose it to the lover, and the lover is also expected, he should not keep anything confidential. He should disclose it. These are the six reciprocal exchanges between the lover and the beloved. If I love you, because you are beautiful, for my sense gratification, but I keep everything secret, that is not love. That is sense gratification. Lust. These are the signs of love. Carol: Do you think a man who says he loves God should withdraw from the world, say into a community or something like that? *Prabhupāda: First of all between two. Then you can expand it. First the love between*-love means there are two, the lover and the beloved. So, the transaction begins between the two, then it expands. Carol: How do you go if you look at the two as say the creator and the person? Would that be the two that you have in mind? How would you go about fostering that relationship? Amogha: She says if you mean by the two the creator and us, how would you go about fostering or increasing that relationship between us and... Prabhupāda: Creator, created. Do you believe in creator? Carol: Impersonal creator, yes. Prabhupāda: Huh? Amogha: She says impersonal creator. Prabhupāda: Impersonal? Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that philosophy? Impersonal creator? Carol: Without any attributes that we can... Prabhupāda: Creator is an attribute. To become creator, that is attribute. If I create this bell, I know the art of how to create a bell. Carol: Hmm. Prabhupāda: So, this is my attribute. How you can say the creator is without attribute? This is false philosophy. I know how to create this bell. That is my artistic sense. That is my qualification. And how you say I am without qualification? As soon as you say "creator," then He has got many qualifications. Carol: How can ignorance be removed? Prabhupāda: The ignorant people can also learn from the learned. If you have got this idea that creator is impersonal, that means you are not a learned. You have no knowledge. And this is the simple answer. As soon as you say "creator," He has so many qualities. The bell... Suppose I am ringing. Now, when the spring is loose, it does not sound. So, others may not know, but one who has created-"Oh, the spring is loose. Now we wind it again." That means I know, ins and outs and everything. That is creator. So, if one is cognizant of everything, how He can be impersonal? What is this philosophy? Hmm? Answer. You are philosopher. Amogha: He says if the creator, if one is cognizant of everything, then how can He not be a person? The creator is cognizant of everything. So if He is cognizant, how can He not be a person? Carol: Well, He would incorporate personal attributes... Prabhupāda: Hmm? She says "He." Carol: ...not be governed by them. Prabhupāda: She says "He," but He is impersonal. (laughter) Carol: Yes. (laughs) It's the intellect and the emotion. Prabhupāda: How vague ideas. And they are passing on philosophy. "He" contradicts. You say "He." And again He is impersonal. Carol: At the emotional level it's a very personal... Prabhupāda: Why should you emotional? You are a philosopher. You should talk very nicely. Carol: Talk? Amogha: He said, why be emotional? You are a philosopher, so talk very nicely. Carol: Oh. (surprised) I don't philosophize. Amogha: What she just said was that He is impersonal, but He incorporates personal features? Carol: If God is in everything, then the personal attributes must be part of Him, it, whatever. Amogha: She says personal attributes are part of God. Carol: But God is not just limited to... Prabhupāda: You have no idea of God. Carol: No. I don't think... Prabhupāda: He must be person. As soon as you say "He knows everything," "He creates," and so many other things, then these are all personal. You say "He." "He." These are all personal. Carol: This in only our idea of God though, not necessarily... Prabhupāda: That means you have no clear idea of God. You have vague idea. So you have to learn what is God. Carol: You think you can know the nature of God? Amogha: She says do you think you can know the nature of God? Prabhupāda: Yes. You can know also. Carol: In an intellectual way? Prabhupāda: You can know also. Carol: You might know something in your heart but not be able to express it. Prabhupāda: Why not express it? You can express it. If whatever is within your heart, if you cannot express, then you are not perfect. You must express what is within your heart very clearly. Not that I have got something within my heart and I cannot express. That means my knowledge is imperfect. Carol: So often our understanding moves sort of separately the emotional, the heart. Prabhupāda: Emotion is not required for scientific knowledge. Emotion is not. Useless. It must be factual. Emotion is no use. Emotion is useful in high, ecstatic love. Not for scientific study of something you require emotion. No. Carol: In the bhakti way of doing things, this emotion and love are very closely entwined, aren't they? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is higher stage. Not in the beginning. In the beginning devotion means I should be devoted to you. Why should I be devoted to you unless you are worthy? Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So unless I understand that Kṛṣṇa is worth for my surrendering, He is worthy, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? If I demand, immediately you have come, that you surrender. Would you like to do that? Carol: To surrender? Prabhupāda: If I ask you that you surrender. I am meeting you for the first time. Would you like to surrender? Carol: Yes. Prabhupāda: I don't think. (laughter) Carol: To want to and to do it is different. Prabhupāda: No, unless you are fully aware of my abilities, qualities, why should you surrender? (indistinct) So, before surrendering, one has to study the person where he is going to surrender. Then he surrenders. That is real surrender. And blindly surrender, that will not stay. So, our first business is to surrender to God; therefore we must know what is God. Then you must surrender. And, the emotion is good. That means you are advanced. If you understand that God is giving us everything. So, that emotion is very good. If one from the very beginning becomes emotional, "Oh, God is so kind. God is so great, that He is giving us everything, our necessities. I must serve Him." This emotion is very good. But for ordinary man, this emotion does not come. He wants to study what is God. Then when he fully understands, "Oh, God is so great." Then that emotion is very nice. That is genuine emotion. Otherwise emotion is sentiment. That will not stay. That will not endure. It is temporary. Carol: Would the intellect be helpful in knowing God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you have got the necessary intellect, then you are no better than the animals. The animals have no intellect to understand God, but the human being has got that intellect. That is the distinction between animal and human being. [break] Sleeping, the human being also sleeps; *they also sleep. Then sex enjoyment: the human being also enjoy, and the animals also enjoy. And protection from fear or becoming fearful*-the human being is also fearful and arranges for protection, and the animal also does. So far the primary necessities of life, that is equal in animal and human being. But the human being has a special intellect developed than the animals that he can understand what he is, what is God, what is this cosmic manifestation, and what is the aim of life, how we should conduct. These things are prerogatives for the human being. The animals have no such prerogative. So if we do not utilize these special intellectual activities, then we remain animal. We do not make any development. So at the present moment they are improving the method of primary necessities of life-eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are thinking the dog is eating on the floor; if we can eat on table, chair and nice dish, that is advancement of civilization. They are thinking like that. The dog is sleeping on the floor, and if we sleep in very nice apartment, very decorated, that is advancement of civilization. The dog is having sexual intercourse on the street without any shame, and we are also coming to that point already. And if we have sex intercourse in the name of love and so on, so on, that is advancement. And dog is defending with his jaws and nails and teeth, you are defending with atomic bomb, therefore we are advanced. But they have forgotten that the human being has got this special intellect to understand God. That they are not doing. Just like you are going to be a doctor in anthropology. Is it not? Carol: Yes. Prabhupāda: Where is the sense of God there? Carol: I only do it for a living. The other side of me is something... Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say the anthropology it is a big scientific department. Where is the understanding of God there? Carol: I find it difficult to reconcile the love of God with actually doing something like this. Prabhupāda: Then how you are going to speculate on anthropology? Carol: Hmm. Prabhupāda: If you cannot adjust, how you are wasting your time in the science, anthropology? It is a false science. Carol: I'm waiting to be led into something which is good. Prabhupāda: There is no meaning. Carol: Yes. You can only decide in... Prabhupāda: The whole theory, Darwin's theory, is a false theory. It has no sound background. He says it is theory. Theory is not science. I can propose some theory, "It is like that." But that is not science. Science means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe how the rules are working, and when you practically bring them into experiment, then it is science. If you simply theorize, that is not science. Mental speculation. It has no benefit. You can speculate, constructing a castle in the air. That is not a very good thing. You should present something which will benefit the people, and practical. That is science. Carol: Do you think it is possible to live in say an education framework, or should it be something quite separate? Prabhupāda: Education, if it is not for the benefit of the people, then what is the use of such education? That is not a good education. Education means something which will benefit the mass of people. That is education. To enlighten them to do something better. That is education. And this whole Darwin's theory is false. But people are giving too much stress. First of all, anyone, even Darwin, he's not independent. Just like Darwin has died. So, he is under the control of something higher. Nobody wants to die, but he is forced to die. Is it not? Then where is his independence? Carol: That is the illusion. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Amogha: She says that is the illusion of independence. Prabhupāda: ? Yes, so if you simply in illusion you live, then where is your education? If you remain in darkness, then where is your education? Illusion means darkness. So if you are in darkness, now what is your education? And where is your philosophy? Carol: The only way to remove this darkness is through love. Is this what you are saying? Prabhupāda: Love is far away. First of all you be educated. Carol: How? In what way? Prabhupāda: Education means right knowledge. Right knowledge. Just like, everyone wants to live. Nobody wants to die. So, the enquiry should be that "I do not wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" What is that force? What is the nature of that force? If I submit, "Yes, the force is there," then where is my knowledge? I do not wish to die. So why death is forced upon me? Nobody wants miserable condition of life, but miserable condition of life is enforced upon me. So this should be first of all enquired, that I do not want these things, and who is enforcing upon me these things? This is the first enquiry, philosophical. Carol: I tend to approach from the other side and ask "Who am I?" and "What is this thing that I call myself?" Prabhupāda: It is everyone's problem. I don't want something, but something is enforced upon me. Just like you are now a young girl. You do not like to be old woman. But you will have to become old woman. Carol: Become? Amogha: Old woman. Carol: Oh, yes. Hmm. Prabhupāda: Nature will force you that after forty years of age you must become old, and you must not remain so beautiful. This is forced. But no one wants that. No woman wants that "I shall look not beautiful and my flesh should be flabby and no more luster. I don't want all these things." Why it is forced? Carol: Suffering and pain leads people to God, doesn't it? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Amogha: She says doesn't the suffering and pain lead people towards God? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the law, but we are so dull*-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am independent." Carol: Is it possible to carry out that enquiry while you're engaged in activities? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real enquiry. Wherefrom my life has begun? What is the ultimate goal of my life? Why I am put into these conditions which I do not like? Who is enforcing? These things should be asked. That is the proper enquiry of the human being. And we cannot solve the question of birth, death, old age and disease, and you are theorizing something utopian. What is the use of such advancement of knowledge? I live for fifty years and sixty years, and the Darwin's theory they are calculating gap of millions of years. There is a gap of millions of years, and we will live for fifty years. How we are taking calculation of millions of years? Speculation simply. And misleading people. An honest man should not mislead others. He should understand that his knowledge is limited. How can I say something theorizing? That is not very good business. And misleading people. I have no perfect knowledge. I am theorizing. What is the use? I have no actually accurate knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluff. That is going on. An honest man should not take part in big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate knowledge. Then you bring knowledge to others. That is our proposition. First of all make your life perfect, then you try to give knowledge. If you have no knowledge, vague knowledge, not definite knowledge, then why should you try to give knowledge to others? Carol: Can you have perfect knowledge? Prabhupāda: What? Carol: Can you have perfect knowledge,... Prabhupāda: Yes. Carol: I mean ultimately you might say that I might be able to have some, but it's still a bit doubtful. In the near future how could you ever... Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge you can immediately, provided you take knowledge from the perfect. If you receive knowledge from a bogus person, then how you can have perfect knowledge? Knowledge has to be received from a person. Why shall I go to a school, college, teachers, guru? To receive knowledge. So if your teacher, guru or parent, those who are your superior, if they are perfect, then you get perfect knowledge. But if your teacher is a bogus, then you get bogus knowledge. Carol: And this is immediate, is it? Amogha: She says is this immediate, the reception of perfect knowledge? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are giving knowledge from Bhagavad*-gītā. This is perfect knowledge. You take it; you become perfect. Carol: And your actions are perfect actions? Prabhupāda: What is that? Amogha: And your actions are perfect actions? *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find*-you have read Bhagavad-gītā? No. Carol: Mmm. *Prabhupāda: It is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Think of God. So we are doing this. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa*-we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. THe direction is there, and we are doing that. Therefore my action is perfect. If the physician says that you take this medicine in such and such dose, you don't do this, and do this. If I follow, then I'm cured, perfect. Carol: Does a man then stop judging his actions? Prabhupāda: No, if I know that the knowledge which I am receiving from the person is perfect, then there is no question of judging. You simply follow. Carol: So it's a matter of complete faith. *Prabhupāda: Just like a child. Child assumes that my father is perfect. So, actually a father should be perfect at least for the child. So whatever the father, mother, gives him knowledge, that is perfect. Father says, "My dear child, this is called 'table.' " The child does not know what is table, but he understand from his father. He says, "This is table." So when the child says it is table, it is fact. This is perfect. He may be imperfect, his child, but because he is repeating the perfect knowledge of his father, whatever he is speaking is perfect. Because he has received the knowledge. Actually the child inquires from the father, "Father, what is this?" Father smiles at child, "This is called bell. If you push your hand in this." Then you get the perfect knowledge. He tries it. Oh, it is coming. The knowledge is there. He may be imperfect, but the instruction he has received, that is perfect. Similarly, if you get instruction from the perfect, then your knowledge is perfect, and if you receive knowledge*-just like anthropology-from an imperfect person, Darwin, then whole thing is imperfect. So why should we waste our time in imperfect knowledge? Carol: Because there are few people around us who think they are perfect. Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that people want to be cheated, so I shall be perfect cheater. (laughter) That is another thing. And take my doctorate title, being a perfect cheater. Carol: If you look for those who are perfect, you don't find any. Amogha: She says there are so few perfect people, if you look for a perfect person, you don't find any. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we are giving*-here is Kṛṣṇa. Here is the perfect person. You take. But you don't follow Him. Just like I began with. Jesus Christ is perfect, but you don't follow him. Carol: Mmm. Prabhupāda: You don't like to follow him. You follow Darwin. Whose fault it is? The perfect person's fault, or your fault? You don't like to hear from the perfect person. You want to hear from a humbug bogus person. That is the defect. (long silence) Carol: Thank you. Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gaṇeśa: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Amogha: He's bringing something for you. *Carol: We have your record, the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple album. It's beautiful. We sing the chants every night now. They're rather lovely. *Amogha: She says she has the Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa Temple album, and every night they sing the chants. At home. They have the record from London. Prabhupāda: Oh. Carol: They're pretty hard to get hold of. I wish there were more around. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will benefit. That will benefit. Amogha: They are available by mail from America. Carol: I think a lot of people don't know it exists, that's the problem. Prabhupāda: That record which was done by George Harrison? Carol: Yes. It's very rare to find music like that here. Prabhupāda: George Harrison has contributed many. He gave me first of all nineteen thousand dollars for printing Kṛṣṇa book. Now he has purchased one house in London, and we are using that. It is two hundred thousand pounds. Yes, he is a good boy, good soul. Carol: You don't have a group in Perth, do you? Prabhupāda: He is also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Yes. He chants all day Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has made some record, "Kṛṣṇa." Amogha: "My dear Lord, I really want to see You." Something like that. Prabhupāda: Like that, yes. "Kṛṣṇa" he has said. Śrutakīrti: Yes. His latest album, "Kṛṣṇa Where Are You?" Amogha: Oh, I haven't seen it. Prabhupāda: And in the record album he has given this picture. So you are intelligent girl, you study about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will benefit you. The anthropology you may get some degree, adoration. What is the benefit? Jaya. (Carol leaves) They enquire why I have come to the West. If I enquire that two thousand year ago you have been taught that "Thou shall not kill," and your business is only to kill. I have come to enquire from you, "What is your answer?" How you have become civilized, that you cannot accept one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are declaring yourself as Christian and civilized. This is my question. Answer it. In two thousand years, first of all you began killing Christ. Never mind, still, two thousand years past, you could not stop killing? You could not accept the first instruction. What kind of civilized man? Jayadharma: Sometimes they say, Prabhupāda, that Jesus meant just... Prabhupāda: Meant? Jayadharma: ...just human beings. Prabhupāda: All right. That means you are killer of human beings. THat means, in the beginning, you are all killers of human beings. And therefore you killed Jesus Christ. That is not very good qualification. Killer of human being... He said "Thou shall not kill." Where he says that "Thou shall not kill human beings"? That is your interpretation. Śrutakīrti: That's obvious he meant only human beings, because he himself was killing animals. Prabhupāda: Christ was killing animals? Śrutakīrti: Well, he instructed his own disciples to distribute the fish. So he was also involved in killing of animals. Prabhupāda: Yes, but he said that the fuits and vegetable should be your flesh. What is that? Śrutakīrti: Well, that was before Christ. He never said that. Paramahaṁsa: He also said that. Śrutakīrti: Where does he say that? Paramahaṁsa: He said that in the (inaudible). Yes. The Bible says that and Christ also spoke that, that the grasses of the fields and the fruits of the trees shall be your meat. Prabhupāda: Then there is contradiction? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. The Christians always say that Christ was eating fish and drinking wine, so what problem have we got? Drinking a little alcohol, eating a little meat? Prabhupāda: Then how did he say that "Thou shall not kill"? Śrutakīrti: That was actually the Ten Commandments. That was given by God. Gaṇeśa: Given to Moses. Śrutakīrti: That was given to Moses by God. The Ten Commandments. Prabhupāda: That is not Christ has said? Śrutakīrti: Well, Christ enforced it. Paramahaṁsa: It was accepted by him as one of the rules. Śrutakīrti: Christ's greatest commandment was to love God above all things. So if one is to love God, one must follow His instructions. Prabhupāda: Who is following the instructions? Śrutakīrti: We are. Prabhupāda: But supposing Christ distributed fish, but did he say that we shall maintain regular slaughterhouse for killing animals? Śrutakīrti: He was against that. He threw the men out of the temple, because they were selling lambs in the temple to be offered at the altar. So he kicked them out, saying this temple is not a place for selling animals for slaughter. *Paramahaṁsa: But in one place they say Christ encouraged fishermen. Because he came and the fishermen were fishing on one side of the boat, and Christ came along and said, "You are fishing on the wrong side of the boat." He said, "Put your nets on the other side, and you will get more fish." An they did that and they got huge amounts of fish. And so they were encouraged in their fish*-eating in this way. Gaṇeśa: Jesus also said to the fisherman, "Give up you fishing and I will make you fishers of men." He said this to his disciples. Prabhupāda: Then on the whole it comes that his instructions are sometimes contradictory. Paramahaṁsa: Not only that but they say that... Usually when it comes right down to it, the Bible has gone through so many interpretations and so many changes in the last two thousand years that... Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very difficult. Paramahaṁsa: People..., I've talked to professors who know the original Hebrew and the original tongues that the Bible was written in. They say that is has changed so much that you can hardly... Prabhupāda: Yes, they are changing. Just like he said, "Thou shall not kill." They are now changing, "Thow shall not commit murder." They are doing that. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. They have a modern Bible, using all modern terminology. Prabhupāda: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupāda said." (laughter) They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ kaunteya: "And in due course of time, this yoga was lost. Therefore I am repeating the same thing, old philosophy to you." So it requires like that. Paramahaṁsa: One thing about the Christian religion is that through the last two thousand years, Christ's original teachings may have been good teachings, may have been potent preaching, but because there were no potent preachers to carry on the preaching, therefore the whole thing has been lost. But if there are potent preachers to continue reestablishing and establishing the principles,... Prabhupāda: So how you'll find, if everything is now changed? Where you will get the right information? Paramahaṁsa: That's the problem. That's why there are so many hundreds of branches of Christianity, literally hundreds. So many divisions of Christianity. Some people accept this, some people accept this. *Prabhupāda: Therefore we should advocate that Bhagavad*-gītā is not like that. It is coming in the same form as it was taught to Arjuna. If you challenge that "How you know that it has not been changed?" the ācāryas are there. The ācāryas are there, and they are accepting. Therefore it is correct. We have to follow the ācāryas. So when we see the ācāryas have accepted, then we accept. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, before that other ācāryas also, they accept. They never say that "This was not in the original scripture. It has been changed." You don't find any such statement of the ācāryas. The best thing, therefore, if you want a religious system, Bhagavad-gītā is coming without any contradiction, change, for the last five thousand years. You accept it. Other scriptures are (unclear), and there are so many doubts, so many interpretations. So, if you want real religious system, this is the scripture spoken directly by God, and accepted by all the ācāryas, so take it. If you are really after God, so you take enlightenment from this perfect scripture. If you want truth, it doesn't matter wherefrom it is coming. I must accept the truth. Paramahaṁsa: The Christians openly admit that the Bible has been changed, but they also have a lot of doubt about our scripture. Prabhupāda: No, even they doubt, the Christian religion is now dead. That we see practically. So many churches are not working. Nobody comes there. Nobody comes. Paramahaṁsa: As they have seen that their scripture has been changed, they also have a very strong doubt about our scripture. They say "Well, yours in even older than ours," so somewhere along the line they say it must have been changed. Prabhupāda: You say, but those who are the followers of the authorities, they do not say. You are outsider. You say it may be. It may not be, but you have no authority. You are simply taking a hypothesis, "it may be." But those who actually are following, they do not say. What about this? Whose version is more important? Your or theirs? You are outsider. You are simply suggesting because you had a bad experience. But one who has no such experience, why should he follow your advice? *Paramahaṁsa: Actually if anyone looks at Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is, presented by yourself, then they can logically see that it is perfect. Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got our argument, logic, everything. Why should we blindly follow? *Gaṇeśa: The results can be seen practically that those who are following the Bhagavad*-gītā written by you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, are giving up these nonsense activities. Prabhupāda: Letters are posted? Paramahaṁsa: No, not yet. Prabhupāda: How they can deliver if you don't post? Paramahaṁsa: Well the next time someone goes in. This evening someone can post. Prabhupāda: There is no letter box? Gaṇeśa: There's not one close. I can post them tonight. Prabhupāda: No, night is useless. Nobody is coming to clear. Gaṇeśa: Yes, there's one collection at eight o'clock in the night time. Prabhupāda: Oh, then why not post there? It is six. *Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the knowledge was handed down by the saintly kings, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2], how is it that the knowledge was lost? Prabhupāda: When it was not handed down. Simply understood by speculation. Or if it is not handed down as it is. They might have made some changes. Or they did not hand it down. Suppose I handed it down to you, but if you do not do that, then it is lost. Now the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on in my presence. Now after my deparature, if you do not do this, then it is lost. If you go on as you are doing now, then it will go on. But if you stop... (end) Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: Worshiping the dead bodies. Amogha: There's a pathway up here that goes up... Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes when we are speaking, people say, in the questions they say, "Why do you say this is a science? It seems that this must be belief. Because science..." *Prabhupāda: Your so*-called science is also belief. You believe in one way, we believe in another way. And if you call it science, then it is also science. If you call your belief as science, then why shall I not call my belief as science? Your is also belief. You have never gone to the moon, and you are talking of so many things about moon. That is your belief. Amogha: But they say with science they can prove so many things. Prabhupāda: We can also prove. You cannot prove. Just like you say the life is made of chemicals. You prove it. Take chemicals and make a life, then it is true. Otherwise it is a humbug. Why do you say like that, that life is made of chemicals? You cannot prove it. Amogha: I do not say that life is made of chemicals. Prabhupāda: They say. Amogha: They say. Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, these rascals say. Amogha: But they say they can prove that there are chemicals... *Prabhupāda: You prove it. You take the chemicals and prove*-produce life. Why do you talk nonsense? First of all prove. You did not produce a life, even an ant, in the laboratory, and still you say life is a combination of chemicals. Why do you say like that? Challenge them. Gaṇeśa: We cannot see souls, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It appears that matter comes from matter, or life comes from matter. We cannot see the soul. Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you can perceive. If life comes from matter, then when there is a dead body, put matter and make it alive. Or put chemicals. Chemical is also matter. Make him alive. Paramahaṁsa: We made some, um, um... Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all this is my challenge: that here is a dead body, so bring some chemicals. Just like a motorcar stopped for want of chemical, petrol. So you bring petrol and it will be started. Similarly, you bring some chemical and start it again. Paramahaṁsa: Well, that will require some time to find the chemicals. Prabhupāda: That means you fool. You are talking nonsenses. You do not know what is that chemical. You prove yourself a rascal. Paramahaṁsa: Well, we accept that we don't know, but we are trying to learn. Prabhupāda: Then if you don't know, why do you talk nonsense? First of all you know, then talk. That is science. Amogha: But the way we built this civilization and technology... Prabhupāda: It is not civilization. It is animal. You are eating meat, and you are civilized? The tigers eat meat, the dogs eat meat. A human being, why should he eat meat? Paramahaṁsa: But there are so many wonderful things taking place, brain transplants, and so many other things. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are not civilized so long you are eating meat. You are dogs and cats and tigers, that's all. The tiger may be a very strong animal, but it is not to be called that he is civilized. Nobody will say the tiger is civilized. Amogha: But we have made airplanes and cars, and if we had only waited until we knew, we never could have made it. But by trying... Prabhupāda: All right. You have made some technical advancement. That does not mean you are civilized. Civilized means the Aryans. They know what is the soul. That is civilization. Paramahaṁsa: But we have seen in the Eastern countries where the people don't eat meat, they are at the same time very primitive. Very uncivilized, like savages. Amogha: They don't have enough food. Paramahaṁsa: No technology, no education. Prabhupāda: Because you have plundered them for the last two thousand years. You rascals, rogues, you have plundered. You have taken all their money, all their jewels, all their gold, and made British Museum. (laughter) It is due to you. (noise in background) What is the dog? Some dog? Amogha: Oh, that is the siren. You mean the siren? Prabhupāda: No, no. Some bird. *Amogha: Oh, yeah. In Bhagavad*-gītā we claim that it is a fact scientifically that Kṛṣṇa appeared on earth and so many things. But actually isn't it because we believe that the Bhagavad-gītā is true that we think it is scientific? Because we believe it. But someone else would say, "I don't believe it, so for me it's not scientific." *Prabhupāda: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad*-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14], by eating sufficient grains, the living entity become flourished. So, can you deny it? Amogha: That must be true. *Prabhupāda: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad*-gītā says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ: [Bg. 4.13] "By Me, the four divisions of human soceity are made." The most intelligent class, the brāhmaṇa, who knows the soul, God, etc., by their character, by their behavior. That is brāhmaṇa class. This is the most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is not civilization. Simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers, where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization. Paramahaṁsa: But we have philosophers and poets. Prabhupāda: They are all loafer class. They have no information of the soul. They are studying in the dead matter, that's all. Freud and others, Darwin. What do they know? Amogha: There are also so many priests and rabbis, the Pope. *Prabhupāda: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized. And if he doesn't know what is government, he is simply living there, he's a third class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair, but you do not know it. Then you are third*-class man. You are not human being; *you are animal. Animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be*-brāhmaṇa. Brāhma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized. *Gaṇeśa: The Bhagavad*-gītā was written five thousand years ago, so it doesn't pertain to today. *Prabhupāda: No, it was not written. It was there. Then you do not read Bhagavad*-gītā. Why you are speaking like that? You know Bhagavad-gītā? You have not studied Bhagavad-gītā. That is a disgrace for you. You have read Bhagavad-gītā? Gaṇeśa: A little. Prabhupāda: What is that? Amogha: He says yes, a little. *Prabhupāda: Then you do not know. Why he says that Bhagavad*-gītā was written five thousand years ago? Why do you say like that? You do not know. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... What kind of realization of Bhagavad-gītā, you do not know? I am accusing you because you are student of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How you do not know? Paramahaṁsa: I think he was posing as a materialist. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. But one who does not know, why is he saying that Bhagavad*-gītā was written five thousand years ago? He does not know. That is my point. If you had known then you would not have said like that, foolishly, that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. It is avyayam, it is eternally there. It is eternally there. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Avyayam means which is never under deterioration. It is eternally existing. That is avyayam. Just like ātmā, soul, avyayam. There is no deterioration. It is there. So forty millions of years ago once it was spoken, but in due course of time it is now lost; *therefore I am speaking it again to you. You did not read Bhagavad*-gītā it is said there? How do you say it was written five thousand years ago? It is already there. It was first spoken forty millions of years ago, now it is lost. The material world is like that. One thing is lost sometimes. Therefore I am speaking to you. And why are you speaking to me? Because you are my devotee. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That means only the devotees can understand Bhagavad-gītā, and it is always existing, and because it is now lost... Just like we are putting Bhagavad-gītā, why am I stressing so much? It is lost. By the so-called Gandhis and Dr. Radhakrishnan, they have made it lost. Therefore we are stressing. The thing is there. We are simply trying to revive it again. It is not that it is the beginning. No. It is already there. But these rascals have made it lost. People do not understand it, do not follow it, that is the difficulty. So we are trying to revive it again. It is revival of the whole teaching. Permanent teaching. Permanent beneficial instruction. Now it is lost. Which way shall we go? Gaṇeśa: Straight ahead, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is another path. Prabhupāda: There is another path? Paramahaṁsa: Another footpath, yes. Prabhupāda: This road is nice. Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Which way? This way or that way? Amogha: This way is all right. Prabhupāda: All right. Amogha: The sun is this way. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā is not that, five thousand years ago, not like that. Just like you cannot say the sun is now coming. It is there. It is there always. You are seeing now. They used to think like that-at night the sun is dead. These rascals. And they are advanced. They used to think that this earth is square. (laughing) And they are advanced. They are changing their opinion daily. That is their scientific knowledge. Why should they change? Amogha: They say this means they are discovering the truth, step by step. *Prabhupāda: That means you do not know the truth. That is a fact. You do not know-simply speculating. You are accepting some spot*-this is truth. And after some days, "No, no, this is not truth, this is truth." This is your position. Paramahaṁsa: Many of the scientific textbooks that were written twenty years ago are all outdated. Can't use them any more. Prabhupāda: Useless. So this scientific at the present moment, after twenty years they'll be useless. This is your scientific. Amogha: But at least what we know now is more true than what we knew before. And if we keep trying we'll know more. Prabhupāda: Yes, that means you are always in ignorance. This means that you are always in ignorance. And Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Kṛṣṇa says the same thing I am speaking to you again. That means we are not in ignorance. We may forget something, but the truth is always the same. But you are making, manufacturing, discovering truth. That means you do not know what is truth. You should answer like that. That you are all rascals. You do not know what is truth; therefore you are discovering truth. Truth is never discovered. It is already there. But you do not know what is that truth. That is credit that you are making advance towards truth, but you do not know what is truth. That is a fact. Is it clear? Making discoveries means you do not know what is truth. But it is good credit for you that you are trying to advance. That we agree. Paramahaṁsa: So eventually if we keep advancing like this we'll understand the truth. Prabhupāda: No you'll never advance. Your advance is so slow and foolish that you cannot. Amogha: But some Indian history professors say... Prabhupāda: We are not talking of Indian history, we are talking on the truth. We never say it is Indian truth. *Amogha: But Bhagavad*-gītā has been presented in so many ways also, and now we are saying it is another way. *Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that "I am showing you the way how to understand Bhagavad*-gītā. You have to accept that." Not so many ways. Only that way. That I have explained in the Preface, that when you have to take a medicine, you have to take the direction: dose, such and such. Not that so many ways doses are prescribed. According to the prescription you have to take. Otherwise you will waste your time. Now they have wasted so many plates. What is the value of this? (referring to memorial plates on trees.) Amogha: Bhūtejya. Prabhupāda: What benefit is there? A soldier has died. So what is the use of having a tree, having a plate? Amogha: This will make us remember how much our countrymen... Prabhupāda: What benefit is there by remembering? Paramahaṁsa: Well the family feels honored that there is a tree here for a son of their's. Prabhupāda: What benefit do they derive? Paramahaṁsa: Well, they can come and see it. Prabhupāda: Do they think that man who has died is still there? Amogha: Next time when there is a war, then they will feel more inclined to fight, knowing that there may be a tree for them. Prabhupāda: It means, this is government deceiving. The man is not there. And even if he is there, suppose the soldier after dying for his country has become a tree, is it a very good reward? (laughter) How foolishly they are thinking. We have to point out their foolishness. That is our business. They are working very hard, undoubtedly, but they are working foolishly. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. The result is simply they are becoming tired. That's all. Because they are not working intelligently, like monkey, he is busy all day. What is the value of your busy? You'll find the monkey is never sitting idle. He's always busy, "eḥ, eh, eh." (imitating monkey) So what is the result of that busyness? He's a monkey. And they claim to be coming from monkey, these rascals. So we can see that your monkey's quality is already there. (laughter) You have not improved more than monkey, because you are working uselessly. They are theorizing that they have come from monkey, and as soon as you say that you are monkey, they become angry. Just see. They are claiming that we are coming from monkey. And if you say you are monkey, no better than monkey, then they are angry. Just see. Paramahaṁsa: That's because we've advanced from the monkey stage up to the human stage. *Prabhupāda: You have not advanced. If you are uselessly working, then you are monkey. Monkey is busy, but useless. There is no value. What is the value of your working? You cannot make a solution of the problem that you are dying. Then what is the use of your working? You do not like to die. Why you are dying? You are keeping memory of him because you wanted that he should not have died. That is your desire. You do not like to die. So where is the solution of your death? You might open many hospitals, but where is the solution of disease, that there should be no more disease? That you cannot do. Therefore your so*-called scientific research, working hard day and night, is all monkeys' business. Useless. Paramahaṁsa: But we are seeing that even the spiritualists get old and die also. Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are not talking of this body. We are talking of the soul. We say that soul transmigrates. So, instead of transmigrating to another this perishable body, we are transmigrating to the eternal body. That is our business. We are making solution. But you do not know. You are simply working like monkey, uselessly. Paramahaṁsa: But we haven't seen that anyone has got... *Prabhupāda: How you can see? You cannot see. You do not believe in transmigration. So how can you see? Paśyanti jñāna*-cakṣuṣā. When you will have the eyes to see-knowledge-then you'll see. Now you are monkey, how you can see? A monkey cannot see. Paśyanti jñāna cakṣuṣa. Just like our men in India, they know I have come to Australia. But he's not seeing by his eyes. He knows the arrangement was made, they purchased ticket, and they went to the airport. And they are confident. They are sending letters here. Has he come with me to see? How he knows? That I have come here, how he knows? He has not seen that I have come here. But how he knows? Gaṇeśa: By hearing. *Prabhupāda: That means there are other sources of understanding*-not only the eyes. The rascals do not know. They want to see. Paramahaṁsa: Of course a person can never be completely sure... Prabhupāda: Therefore, jñāna cakṣuṣa. You can see with knowledge how this man is being transferred to the eternal life. But you have no such knowledge! You are monkey. A monkey cannot see, a monkey cannot understand. Suppose there is a dog at my house. He does not understand how I have come here, because he has no knowledge. So seeing means knowledge. Seeing, not the eyes. He wants to see by the eyes. He's a monkey. That's all. He's a dog. Paramahaṁsa: But first we have to believe it, and then we can see it? *Prabhupāda: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. It is a fact in this way, that Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]-that's all. You have to see through Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says that a such and such person devotee, after giving up this body, he does not accept. That is seeing. Kṛṣṇa says and you see. Just like you believe me. A child believes the father. Similarly, if the authority is there, then you see by his word, that's all. That is knowledge. Seeing by perfect knowledge*-that is seeing. Not by endeavoring with these imperfect senses. That is not knowledge. Paramahaṁsa: But in this modern age... Prabhupāda: Modern age means all rascals and fools. So we haven't got to follow the rascals and fools. You have to follow the most perfect, Kṛṣṇa. Paramahaṁsa: The problem is that everyone is cheating. Everyone is presenting some knowledge of this or that... Prabhupāda: Therefore we have accepted Kṛṣṇa, who will not cheat. You are cheater, therefore you are believing cheaters. We do not cheat, and we accept a person who does not cheat. That is the difference between you and me. Gaṇeśa: But we were all cheaters before we came to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So how is it that we're not accepting a cheater? How is it that we cheaters have accepted some knowledge from you? Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are speaking what Kṛṣṇa said. He is not cheater. He is God. I am talking to you, but not my own knowledge. I am presenting to you what Kṛṣṇa said. That's all. Therefore I am not cheater. I might have been a cheater, but since I am talking only the words of Kṛṣṇa, since then I am not cheater. Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni [Bg. 7.26], "I know past, present and future." Therefore He is not cheater. But so far we are concerned, we do not know what was the past and what is future. And we do not know perfectly the present also. And if we speak something, then we are cheater. That is cheating. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that don't hear the cheaters and don't try to cheat others. Be honest, and hear from the authority. This is Kṛṣṇa. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is, that don't hear the cheaters and don't try to cheat others. Be honest and hear from the authorities. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Why is it that some people, when they hear about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they take it, and some do not. And still, after that, some of those who take it, they stay, and some who take it take it for some time and then they fail? Prabhupāda: That is fortunate and unfortunate. Just like one inherits father's property. Many millions of dollars, and he has become a poor man by his misusing the money. Like that. He is unfortunate. He got the money, but he could not utilize it. Jayadharma: Does fortune mean it's the mercy of Kṛṣṇa? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy is always there. It is your misuse of free will. You are given the opportunity*-that is fortune. But you do not accept the fortune. That is your misfortune. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛita. Lord Caitanya said, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Kono-some fortunate man can accept it. Because mostly they are unfortunate. Just see, throughout the whole of Europe and America we are making propaganda. How many students have come? A very insignificant number, although they have come. They are fortunate. Amogha: Sometimes we see that a devotee may be very sincere, but at the same time he becomes weak somehow, and he falls down. Prabhupāda: Even if he falls down, still he is fortunate, because the injection is there. It will act, some day or another. Still he is fortunate. As fortunate man he took it, but he fell down. That does not mean he's unfortunate. Still he's fortunate, because the poison is already there. It will develop. That is called ajñāta sukṛti. Therefore he is not loser. He continues to be fortunate. It will take some time. Amogha: So he became weak because he misused his individual will. Prabhupāda: He misused the instruction of his spiritual master. Therefore he became unfortunate, or he fell down. (pause) This is botanical garden? Amogha: The sign says parking for botanic gardens. But I'm not acquainted with it. (pause) I don't know. It says, "Cetenniary. August 22, 1947." Perhaps its name is on the other side. (pause) Is there going to be a world war very soon? We heard there would be. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Then it will be a very different situation for preaching. Prabhupāda: Your preaching will not be stopped. It will go on. (pause) Amogha: He's bringing the car. He went back. He'll bring it around. (reading sign) "The Tree Society originated the idea of placing this kadi log in King's Park. The log, normally destined for milling, was provided and brought by Booning Brothers P.T. Limited from their Darling River sawmilling area. The following transporting and placing in position of this great log from over 200 miles from the depths of the forest, with each of the three sections borne on a 200 horsepower motor truck, was a major engineering feat and a tribute to the spirit of western Australian timber men. With the approval and assistance of the King's Park board, the actual placing of the log in King's Park by 25 June, 1958, was contributed to by Hume Pipe Co., Aaron Brothers B.P. Australia Ltd, the Forests Department and other government departments. The completion of the project was a fine example of community effort." Paramahaṁsa: It weighs a hundred and ten tons. And it's 363 years old, this log. They say it grew that long. In America we have some redwood trees in California they say are many thousands of years old. Amogha: This is a type of eucalyptus? Paramahaṁsa: It says Eucalyptus diversicol. *Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata says, kiṁ taromana jīvanti. You want to prolong your life. The trees*-they do not prolong their life? So if you prolong your life, does it mean that you are better than a tree? Kim taromana jīvanti. If prolonging life is your mission, the trees automatically do that without any scientific knowledge. Then what is the value of your science? Kim taromana jīvanti. Do they not live for thousands of years? What is the value of such living? If the tree is living, standing for 10,000 years, then what is the value of this 10,000 years? So if you live like a tree, without any benefit, then what is the value of your life? Jayadharma: Some people say that trees may be very happy. How do we know? *Prabhupāda: If you want to become happy like that, be. Stand up. Stand up on the bench and laugh*-be happy. (laughter) Amogha: But they say we are humans; we can enjoy. Prabhupāda: What enjoy? Amogha: Television, cinema, dancing... Prabhupāda: Yes, the dogs also dance and enjoy. The monkeys also dance and enjoy. Paramahaṁsa: But these animals, they're not intelligent enough to enjoy the higher... *Prabhupāda: They are intelligent. Otherwise when the dog jumps here, and goes to one man and come here*-he's enjoying. It is enjoyment. So you are doing like that. Amogha: But we cook very nice food to eat. *Prabhupāda: They also eat, according to their taste. The hogs, they eat stool and they enjoy it. So, according to our calculation you are eating stool*-the meat. And you are thinking you are enjoying, as the hog's thinking, that's all. It is a question of standard of enjoyment. Otherwise, enjoyment is there in every living sphere. (In car) Amogha: It sounds very nice. If we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa we can feel unlimited pleasure. Paramahaṁsa: It sounds too simple to be true. Amogha: But maybe we can in addition to this unlimited pleasure, just to make sure we don't lose out on anything, maybe we can also enjoy all these other pleasures. Prabhupāda: Yes, you (indistinct) motorcar and chant. You are working hard like an ass to get these motorcars. You'll get these by chanting. Gaṇeśa: Sometimes they say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that if everybody chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, what shape would the world be in? Prabhupāda: They would get everything, and without any labor. Just see our example. Amogha: But they say that the only reason you are... Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is existing is because we are working and giving you the money. Prabhupāda: You must work. Because we are superior, you must work under us. (laughter) That will give you actually happiness. (indistinct) That is your duty. You are not carrying out your duty, then you will suffer. You work under our direction, you'll be happy. Amogha: Then they say that every religion says the same thing, that if you follow them, then you will be happy. But they are all teaching differently. So... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now try this. This is the latest. (laughter) You are after latest. This is the latest. Jayadharma: Sometimes people may say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that we're just trying to introduce the old caste system from India that never worked anyway. Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. This is natural. Amogha: The divisions of work are naturally there. You can't avoid them. *Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said-you are reading the other day*-the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer-you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (in room:) Jayadharma: They say in India that the caste system apparently is not working. Prabhupāda: Hm? Amogha: Shall I answer? Prabhupāda: Mm. Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching. And so that they could fully concentrate on that, they were not engaged in working for food and money. But what happened in this age, was that the higher caste became fallen, and they misused their high position, and instead of helping everyone by their teaching, they misused the position, or exploited the position, simply for selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the... Prabhupāda: Vested interest. Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but... Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country? Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point. Jayadharma: That is my foolishness. *Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest*-this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also-these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; *they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business-artisans*-that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating-both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh. No. Flesh is not for human being. They should live on food grains. Just like dahl. Dahl is as good as meat. It is from food grain. And there is sufficient varieties of dahl they can eat. They can make so many preparations, palatable preparations. Why are the prices of food grains increasing? Because there is shortage. If there is enough food, the price will automatically decrease, because everyone want to sell. So, the price will decrease, naturally. It will be so lavishly available that you can give food grains even to the animals, like cows and goats and other so many animals. Let them eat. That is the business of the vaiśya man. And go-rakṣya. Another business is to protect the cows, and to give them food nicely so the cows will give enough milk. And from milk, you know, so many nice preparations, all full of vitamins. So why they should be killed? You are killing; *the blood is not utilized, you are taking the flesh. But flesh is transformation of the blood. And milk is also transformation of the blood. So if you take, just like channa, it is as good as flesh. By taste, by benefit*-as good as. So why if you can take the flesh and blood in a human way-blood is transformed into milk, and from milk there are so many good preparations-ghee, yoghurt, burfi, channa, so many preparations are available. This panir, channa, and let the animal live peacefully. Why are you cutting his throat? You require some benefit from the animal. Take this benefit. Why should you kill? If he can live and give better service, then why shall I try to kill? What is this human civilization? Is that human civilization, that I am taking service from you, and I am cutting your throat? Is that humanity? What is the answer? Jayadharma: No, it's animal civilization. *Prabhupāda: Anyone who takes milk... Everyone takes milk. The cow is the mother. Mother gives milk. And mother, when she cannot supply milk, mother should be cut up. Is that a very good philosophy? Is it human philosophy? What is the answer? But if you say that somebody wants to, say in your country majority they want to eat meat. So, if you put that argument, then you can eat some lower animals. You can eat the pigs. You are eating also, pigs. Not in a massive scale. Massive scale-if you are Christian you should follow your religious scripture: "Thou shall not kill!" This should be the principle. But if you are a rākṣasa, if you want to eat meat, then at least don't kill the cows. You can eat other, insignificant animals. You are eating also. You are eating everything. Except the moving cars, you are eating all the moving animals. The car also moves, but you cannot eat. Otherwise you are killing everything. You have become so civilized rascal that your business is to kill other animals and eat. You are so civilized. You are still in the crude form of human being, just like in the jungles, the aborigines, the Africans, they do not know how to develop civilization-crude methods, eating the animals. That also, they are not so uncivilized that they keep slaughterhouses. You are so uncivilized that you are keeping slaughterhouses, regularly. These Africans and other jungle people they eat meat, but they directly kill. They have no such civilization as to maintain a slaughterhouse. The tigers eat meat, but they do not keep a slaughterhouse. And you are civilized. You are keeping slaughterhouse. Why should you keep? The government shouldn't allow you to keep slaughterhouses. If anyone wants to eat meat, let them eat like tigers and others. Individually, kill one animal*-a lower animal, not cows. This should be the government law. You can kill one insignificant animal, like pigs or goats. It has not very much use. You kill it in your home, before your children and family, and eat. THe government may not have any objection. But why should you maintain slaughterhouses? So the agriculturist and the mercantile men, they should produce enough food, give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, sell it. Where there is not enough food grain produced you can make business. That is the instruction given in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. That is really needed. Nobody is interested. Everyone comes to the city, the mercantile class. They are doing business, big, big skyscraper building, and they have artificial money, paper. And instead of eating food grains they are maintaining slaughterhouses. This is not good civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: ...only sun. Amogha: What are the stars exactly, they're other planets or...? Prabhupāda: They're planets, (indistinct) planets. *Amogha: Are they self*-luminating like the moon? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Like that. That is stated in Bhagavad*-gītā, nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśi. Amogha: Ah, "Of luminaries, I am the moon." Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Very soon the United States is sending up one rocket and Russia is sending up another rocket and they are joining in space and they think this is progress. They'll join together up there. They hope someday they'll be able to stay in a station like that and then go out to some planet. Prabhupāda: They could not mix in this planet, they are going to mix in another planet. Srutakirti: They'll probably have some argument in outer space. The astronauts will get into a fight. Prabhupāda: The rascal could not compromise here, they're going in the sky. All mental concoction. Gaṇeśa: They actually have never got to the moon. Prabhupāda: Eh? Amogha: He says did they actually get to the moon or not? Prabhupāda: That I am doubtful. Always. [break] ...doubt always. They have... They might have gone... Mostly, most probably they have not gone. Simply propaganda. But even they have gone, not to moon. Maybe the Rahu planet. Or there are so many other planets. Amogha: Is that Rahu planet closer than the moon to the earth? Prabhupāda: Rahu planet orbit is in between moon and sun. So when it comes in between moon and sun there is eclipse. At night it is eclipse in the moon, and daytime it is eclipse in the sun. Amogha: They used to think that because there is overpopulation we will go to another planet and then begin living there. Prabhupāda: No question of overpopulation. There are so many land. You do not know how to live. There is no question of overpopulation. You want to live like cats and dogs. Therefore you fight; *there is scarcity. If you live properly, there is no question of scarcity. [break] Otherwise it is perfect. Everything is perfect. There is no question of inconvenience. You live according to the direction of Bhagavad*-gītā; there is no question of scarcity, inconvenience, overpopulation. Everything is made. Amogha: People just take it for granted that... Prabhupāda: Huh? Amogha: Due to the propaganda, people take it for granted, "Yes, there is overpopulation. Yes, there is lack of food. There is starvation, this and that." Prabhupāda: Because they cannot manage, so they give some other cause. Amogha: Yeah. They blame it on nature. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: But they don't know that nature's arrangement is perfect. Paramahaṁsa: They spend billions of dollars to try to go in space, but they don't spend that money for food. Prabhupāda: Jaya, thank you, jaya. [break] *Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad*-gītā Kṛṣṇa says He creates the four varṇas and āśramas, so these four classes of men are everywhere. I was just wondering if it is correct to say that each man only finds his satisfaction performing a particular type of work according to his mode of nature? Is that correct? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra... *Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva*-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, lusty desires, very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman. This is their subject matter, kāma. So everyone in this material world infected with this tamo-guṇa, all lusty desires, in various ways, varieties. And some of them in rajo-guṇa-politics and improvement of material condition. So we have to cut down this tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, come to the sattva-guṇa. Then he'll not be disturbed by these lusty desires and greediness. Then he'll be happy. Sthita-sattve prasīdati. When he comes to the sattva-guṇa, now he has to make further progress, sattva-guṇa. And the progress means, being situated in sattva-guṇa if he advances in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he surpasses all the material qualities. That is perfection of life. Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it that when a devotee is situated in the mode of goodness and that... Prabhupāda: Devotee is situated above goodness. Devotee (2): Transcendental. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Devotee (2): Is it still that there's greed and lust there, but he becomes transcendental to it? Or are the greed and lust...? Prabhupāda: Degradation can take place at any moment. We are in the material world. It is the degraded place. So infection can take place at any moment. Devotee (2): It's always trying to creep in. Prabhupāda: But if you remain steady in Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it will not touch; you'll not be infected. If you take proper vaccine, so even though you are in the diseased condition, you will not be infected. Otherwise there is chance of being infected of anyone. Devotee (1): So if we devotees... Srutakirti: Better move over. (Car approaches and passes) Prabhupāda: Why they are coming here? Devotee (1): They're coming to fish and to surf. *Prabhupāda: Waste time. Finding out opportunity how to waste valuable time. They do not know that every moment they are dying. Dying, death has begun since he, one takes birth. And our business is before dying we must be prepared for the next life. But they have no knowledge. That is ignorance, tamo*-guṇa. Devotee (1): So if we as devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are transcendental to these modes, does that mean that we can... *Prabhupāda: You are not transcendental. You are trying to be transcendental. You should always remember that "We are trying to be transcendental." When you are actually on transcendental state, you will not be affected by any modes of material nature. Therefore you should be very cautious and careful. Just like on the sea, you are in the boat. You are transcendental. But the boat may can merge into the water any moment unless you are very carefully plying it. At any moment. You are not in the water, you are safe on the boat, but if you do not carefully ply your boat, then you can fall down at any moment. The comparison is given, nṛ*-deham ādyam sulabhaṁ sudurlabhaṁ. Sulabhaṁ. This human form of body is just like a very nice boat to cross over this ocean of ignorance, and the guru is the pilot or the captain. And the śāstras are favorable wind. Just like if you are going this direction, if the wind is blowing this..., then automatically your boat is pushed. And behind the boat, what is called, the boat, that thing? He takes the... Amogha: The oar, rudder... Srutakirti: The oarsman. Oarsmen. Prabhupāda: Oarsman, all of them are. Chief? Amogha: The steersman or the pilot? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the chief man. So the guru is there. He is the chief man, giving direction, or the captain. And others are plying, and the boat is also strong, and the wind is also favorable. In this circumstances, if you cannot cross, then you make suicide. The śāstras are there. That is favorable wind. You get the way. And the spiritual master is directing, "Do like this." And you have got a nice boat and you are plying. Now cross over. Very big ocean in the material world. Just see the sky, how big it is. So we have to cross this material sky, penetrate the covering, then go to the spiritual sky. Then you are safe. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ [Bg. 8.20]. That place, even after destruction of this whole material world, that is safe. So we have to go there, plying the boat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, "You rascal, give up everything. Surrender unto Me. And surrender unto Me. Follow My instruction as I have given. Then you are safe." But that they will not do. They will try to cheat Kṛṣṇa by interpretation, "This means this. This means that." That they will do, these rascals, big, big rascals. Kṛṣṇa says something, and they will misinterpret. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no, it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Just see how misleading these rascals. Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy. This is going on. And they'll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They'll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukṣetra. They have got their own plan-mānava-dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "You give up all these. Kick out all this so-called rascaldom. You just surrender unto Me." That they will not do. Except this, everything which is going on in the name of religion, that is cheating. Everyone is misinterpret... Just like Christians, they have misinterpreted: "Kill means murder. It is meant for man." That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in the name of Bible, that's all. Everyone is doing like that. They are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They are passing... What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gītā. This is going on in the name of religion. Devotee (1): They swear on the Bible in the court. And I was reading in the paper the other day that now in England they have passed a law whereby a man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to be raped. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that? Woman? Devotee (1): They said that the man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to his raping her. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology. Devotee (1): So what this law means is that anybody can rape anybody. Prabhupāda: There is no law; *it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas*-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled." Married life... So he will not be so lusty as without married life. So the gṛhastha life is a concession-same lusty desire under rules and regulation. That's all. That is our higher... (?) Without married life he will commit rapes in so many ways, so better let him be satisfied with one, both the man and woman, and make progress in spiritual life. That is concession. Everyone in this material world has come with these lusty desires and greediness. Even demigods like Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā... The Lord Brahmā became lusty after his daughter. And Lord Śiva became so mad after Mohinī-murti. So what to speak of us insignificant creatures. So lusty desire is there. That is material world. Unless one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, this lusty desire cannot be checked. It is not possible. Devotee (1): So how is it that Lord Brahmā is a pure devotee... Prabhupāda: No, he is not pure devotee. Devotee (1): He's not. Prabhupāda: Anyone who is in the material world, he is not pure devotee. He has to become a pure devotee. But there are pure devotees. They come. They are not subjected to all this. They come for the deliverance of the fallen souls. They are above Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva. Devotee (2): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, isn't Lord Brahmā the original spiritual master in our sampradāya? Prabhupāda: Yes. But we should take that it was his līlā to show that "Even I am subjected. How much you should take risk here." We should take like that because he's our guru. We should not take him that he was subjected to lusty desires, but he made a show that "Even I am also subjected." And he gave up this, changed the body for that. Therefore we should not observe if there is a show of fault of the guru. We should take a different way. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya [SB 10.33.29]. Just like the sun is soaking water from urine, but we should not imitate that, that "We also, let us take urine." Then you'll die. He can do so. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya. The sun can do that. Still he is not affected. Everyone knows the sun soaks water from the urine. But should you imitate that: "Oh, let me take urine"? No. It is not for you. That is advised. Īśvaranam, those who are īśvaras, the controllers, there is no fault. You should not imitate them; simply you should imitate their instruction. Not that their activities which we may not understand, why he is doing that. Paramahaṁsa: In the beginning stage of devotional service when we are trying to make advancement, we have to tolerate the urges of the senses. But is there a point... Prabhupāda: That is tapasya. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is tapasya, that voluntarily we accept some inconvenience. That is called tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. The tapasa means first brahmacarya, how to avoid sex desire. That is the first tapasa. Tapasā brahmacaryena samena vā, yamena niyamena vā, damena tyāgena satya-śaucābhyām [SB 6.1.13]. The steps are there. So tapasā, tapasā... Tapasya means first brahmacarya, how to restrain this sex desire. That is first step. Where is their tapasya? "It is very difficult to do this tapasya. Oh." Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra regularly, you'll be cured. Otherwise, regular tapasya is almost impossible nowadays. Paramahaṁsa: Is there a stage after a person becomes completely purified...? *Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age-all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you-yoga, karma, jñāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. [break] ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement*-the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds? Devotee (1): Oh, the seagulls. Seagull. *Prabhupāda: Oh, seagull. They are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization, he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood, and human being*-a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization? Where they have gone by crossing here? Devotee (2): I think they went up that path out there, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Here, this way? Devotee (2): Yes, I think so. Devotee (1): It leads to the beach. *Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it says that happiness in the mode of goodness is in the beginning is like poison but at the end it is like nectar. Where does the poison end and where does the sweetness begin? *Prabhupāda: Sweetness? That is false sweetness. Just like sexual intercourse. This is sweet, but aftereffect is very poisonous. Either illicit or legal, the aftereffect is very... You have to take care of the children, the child is diseased, go to the doctor and this, that, so many, maintenance... And illicit*-then this charge of rape case and so many other things. So both of them, in the beginning it is very happy, but at the end it is very distressing. That is material happiness. Everyone knows it, that it is distasteful. But still, he does that. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ [SB 7.9.45]. Therefore this kṛpanāḥ... Kṛpanāḥ means miser or foolish person. Devotee (1): [break] ...till they give up their lusty desires. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is required because unless you give up your lusty desires, you will have to remain in this material world, and to remain in the material means suffering. If you actually do not want suffering, then you have to practice all these things so that you can go to the spiritual world. That is the aim of life. And for going to the spiritual world, you have to be completely, cent percent free from all material desires. And so long you will have material desires, you have to accept one material body. Nature is so kind, or the law of nature is so perfect. As long as you will have a little pinch of material desire, then you will have to accept. That's all. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad... And that material life means you may become a grass or you may become a demigod like Brahmā. That will depend on your desire. But you will have to accept. (end) Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: (in car) They have not gone to the moon planet. Paramahaṁsa: Really? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is far, far away. Their calculation is wrong. They are going to a wrong planet. Paramahaṁsa: It must be the Rahu planet. Prabhupāda: Yes, or something else. Not moon planet. Paramahaṁsa: How many... Prabhupāda: It is above the sun planet. Paramahaṁsa: Moon planet is further? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Oh. Because they say that the moon planet is the closest planet to the earth. That is their calculation. And they say that it orbits around the earth, and then that the earth orbits the sun. Prabhupāda: All wrong. What is the... According to them, what is the distance of sun planet? Paramahaṁsa: Sun planet is 93,000,000 miles. Gaṇeśa: They say the moon planet is only 250,000 miles. Prabhupāda: It is wrong thing. Paramahaṁsa: Is their calculation for the distance of the sun wrong also? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: 93,000,000? It says in the *Bhāgavatam* exactly what the distance? *Prabhupāda: The whole universe, diameter, is pañcaśat*-koṭi-yojana. One yojana equal to eight miles, and one koti is ten miles, er, ten million. So pañcaśata, fifty into 10,000,000 into eight. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. So it's fifty crores yojana. Fifty crores yojanas? Prabhupāda: Yes, fifty crore yojanas, pañcaśat. So one yojana equal to eight miles, one crore equal to ten million. Paramahaṁsa: That's eighty million. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: Eighty million times fifty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Means 400,000,000 Śrutakīrti: Hmm. More than that. Four billion. Paramahaṁsa: Four thousand million, which is four billion? Śrutakīrti: Four billion miles. Paramahaṁsa: Four billion miles is the diameter. Prabhupāda: Is the diameter. Paramahaṁsa: You gave that in The *Teachings of Lord Caitanya* also. Prabhupāda: Yes. And the sun is in the middle. Paramahaṁsa: So two billion miles from the edge of the universe. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they say? 93,000,000. Śrutakīrti: That's from the earth to the sun. That's not from the sun to the edge. That's from earth to the sun. Amogha: Is earth near the edge of the universe? Prabhupāda: No. There are many other planets down. Seven planetary system. Paramahaṁsa: The higher planetary systems are closest to the sun? And then... Prabhupāda: No, sun is the middle. This is circumference. Sun is the middle. And the whole diameter is fifty lakhs and... What is...? And moon is above, 200,000 yojanas above the sun. Paramahaṁsa: Ah. 200,000 yojanas. That means 1,600,000 miles above the sun. Prabhupāda: Above the sun. How they'll go? (laughter) They are going to the wrong..., bluffing only. I am repeatedly saying, they have never gone, simply bluff. How it is that they brought some dust? So brilliant, it is blazing, full. There is fire blazing. (walking:) Paramahaṁsa: They say that they measured the moon and that it's very small compared to the earth, very tiny. Prabhupāda: All wrong. Paramahaṁsa: If it's a longer distance than the sun but still it appears so big in the sky, it must be a very large planet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly Venus and others, they are also above. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, above the sun. *Prabhupāda: The sun is moving near about that. This is one universe, and there are thousands and millions of universe. Jagad*-aṇḍa-koṭi. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. That is God's creation. And they are becoming God, "I am God." Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya [Bs. 5.48]. If we simply think of the creation of God, we can appreciate how great He is. *Paramahaṁsa: That's why it's described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Prabhupāda: They say, "God is great," but they do not know how great He is. That is explained in the Vedic literature. Of course, those who are saying "God is great," they are pious. And those who are saying that "I am God," how foolish they are. Therefore I say that anyone who says, "I am God," immediately kick with your shoes on his face. Such a cheater. *Amogha: There is... One of the disciples of Guru Maharaj*-ji, Bala Yogesvara, is in Perth. They have their center here. And he is giving lectures daily, and many people are attending. Prabhupāda: That he is God. *Amogha: There was an article in the paper yesterday from India that says that the Indian court has banned Guru Maharaj*-ji from leaving India. They have issued an order that he must stay until the court has finished because his brother is suing. Because his brother published a photo showing Guru Maharaj-ji embracing and kissing an American girl in the paper. So the Guru Maharaj-ji published a picture of his brother doing the same thing. But they say it was a fake photo, so the court is holding him in India, and they're having a legal battle, suing each other to see who is God. Prabhupāda: Farce. Paramahaṁsa: It seems like these demons who say that they are God, eventually they will end up destroying each other. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now they are fools, rascal, bluffing, but even the scientists, they are also bluffing. Now Russia and America combined together, going? Just see where they are going. Paramahaṁsa: Here's one article about scientists in the paper. It says, "Wonder food will help control heart disease." They say they have a new way of feeding beef and poultry so that the food now, when they eat the beef, it won't give them heart attack. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: They say if they feed them a special diet they have found it changes the cholesterol level in the beef, so if they eat it, they won't get heart attack like they used to. And it says, "The director of the National Heart Foundation, Ralph Reeder, said he believed the process was one of the most significant contributions in recent years toward controlling heart disease. 'It should not be taken lightly by skeptics. It is a world's first,' he said." Amogha: Now they are also thinking that different types of meat cause cancer, not only heart disease but cancer. Gaṇeśa: What have the scientists got to gain by bluffing? Prabhupāda: Position. Material world means they want some material gain, some adoration, and some fame. That's all. This is material world. So if by bluffing you I get some material profit and adoration and fame, why shall I not do it? Everyone is doing that. Amogha: That's the cheating propensity. *Prabhupāda: Yes. In material world they have come to imitate God*-adoration, fame, material profit. Just like this man. He has come to this country. He is getting money, he is getting woman, and becoming God amongst the fools. He is satisfied. That's all. This is not gain? If I get woman, money, and adoration, is it not gain for me? Gaṇeśa: Yes, just like Hiraṇyakaśipu. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Materialistic man means he wants all these things in different way. Somebody is becoming God, somebody is becoming philosopher, somebody is becoming scientist, in this way. Real purpose is these three things. Abha*-pūjā-pratiṣṭhā. And our philosophy? We don't want anything of this. Just see. Negation. Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]. Say... All denial, "We don't want." That is Vaiṣṇavism. Then what do you want? "We want simply to serve Kṛṣṇa." This is our position. They don't want to serve Kṛṣṇa; they want to imitate Kṛṣṇa. And that is their satisfaction. *Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many times when I am seeing professors or students also, they seem to think that traditional Hinduism or whatever they think it is, they say that the Māyāvādī philosophy, or monist, they think this is traditional, and..., because there's so many translations of the Bhagavad*-gītā and the Upaniṣads they've read, and they're all impersonal. So I was wondering what is the best way to convince them that actually, that is not actually the original tradition of understanding? *Prabhupāda: How they are becoming foolish, that they are reading Bhagavad*-gītā and they are accepting original tradition of the Māyāvāda? In the original tradition of Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, Kṛṣṇa said, ahaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: "I said. I am person." How these rascals are accepting imperson? Why do they read Bhagavad-gītā? If they have got different theory, let them differently... They are cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is popular. Therefore they are taking advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and pushing on impersonalism. But here the tradition begins, ahaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ. Where is imperson? So if they want to be cheated willingly, who can save them? They are reading Bhagavad-gītā and devīating from the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Then what is the meaning? Amogha: They don't know. They simply... *Prabhupāda: That means they are so rascal, that... You are reading Bhagavad*-gītā. You must take the words of Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are taking other words? What business you have got? Amogha: They think by majority, most people think like this... *Prabhupāda: Majority or minority, it doesn't matter. But why you should take Bhagavad*-gītā to establish your rascal theories? That means you are cheating. *Amogha: But they think that's the meaning of Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: That's the meaning how? Amogha: That's what they think. They think because they've read so many commentaries... Prabhupāda: Why do they think? If I have written one book, my words are my meaning. Why you should give meaning? I shall kick on your face. What right you have got? You write another book. Why should you take my book and give your meaning? What is this? Paramahaṁsa: These professors didn't write the books, but they read all these Swami this and that books' translations. And then they think, "Well, all these swamis say it's like this..." Prabhupāda: No. They should be conscious that if you read one book, you must understand what the author says. Why should you bring something else to understand that book? What is this? If you want to say something else, you write your own book or bring that book. Why you should take my book? If you want to smoke ganja, why should you take my hand? You have got your hand. You smoke ganja. What is this? I take your hand and smoke ganja? (laughter) Paramahaṁsa: But they say that "We need the help of these different commentaries to understand such deep philosophy." *Prabhupāda: Why should you? Why should you? Why should you take Bhagavad*-gītā? There are different philosophers. They have got different theories. You make your theories. But why should you make your theories on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā? *Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they want to study the Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: But that is not... If you study, you study as it is. Amogha: They can't read Sanskrit. Paramahaṁsa: They don't know. They think "We have to accept from these different swamis. They are the authorities." Prabhupāda: Why you should? If you do not know Sanskrit, why don't you learn Sanskrit, one who knows Sanskrit? What is this nonsense? I say, "Give me a glass of water," and you do not know Sanskrit, you say, "No, it is not meant for him; it is meant for me." What is this? *Paramahaṁsa: But the professors aren't doing this. They want to read the Bhagavad*-gītā, so they're accepting these Māyāvādī philosophers' interpretations. We're speaking of the professors, not of the ones writing Bhagavad-gītā interpretations. Prabhupāda: So why Māyāvāda... Interpretation is required when you cannot understand, but when the things are understood very clearly... Just like we had been in Kurukṣetra. That place is there for millions and millions of years. And why one should interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body"? Why should we accept this meaning? Kurukṣetra is already there. Everyone is going. And if somebody interprets, "No, Kurukṣetra means this body," so why I shall be so foolish to accept this interpretation? Paramahaṁsa: Well, people say that they're not sure whether it's a symbolic meaning or an actual meaning. Prabhupāda: That is your conjecture. But when you read book you should understand the wording of the book. You cannot conjecture in such... Paramahaṁsa: Because they say some of the Vedic literatures... Prabhupāda: That means willingly they want to become fool. Paramahaṁsa: There are so many great symbolic literatures. Prabhupāda: You are seeing this green. If you interpret, "It is not green; it is white," what is this? Can you interpret like that? It is green, and "No, in my interpretation it is white. What you are seeing, it is not actual seeing." You can go on saying like that. But I am an ordinary man. Why shall I take it white? It is green. That's all. Paramahaṁsa: But that is the way of great writing, to write in symbolism. That is... Amogha: Great literary works are done in that way. Paramahaṁsa: They call it "writing between the lines." There's some hidden meaning. Therefore it is very deep. Amogha: And so if Kṛṣṇa was such a great philosopher, then naturally He would have also used those literary talents to write in between the lines. *Prabhupāda: All right, you become very good bluffer. That's all. We don't accept you. All the ācāryas, they did not accept, those who are authorities. Vyāsadeva, he did not accept these foolish theories. Nārada never accepted. Recent ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Caitanya. Why shall I accept these third*-class professors? Kick on their face. We have got authority to support this. *Gaṇeśa: I think they want to interpret Bhagavad*-gītā because they do not want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That is the idea. That is the real purpose. They want to kill Kṛṣṇa. That is the endeavor of Hiranyakasipu, Kamsa, that "We shall kill Kṛṣṇa." And ultimately they become killed. Their faith is like that. Amogha: Their whole idea of Indian history, of Vedic history, is completely perverted. When we say five thousand years ago Vyāsadeva compiled this in writing, they say, "There was no civilization five thousand..." They said, "Only two thousand years ago there was some tribes, and they were not very moral," and things like this, all completely nonsense, because they misread the Bhāgavata and things like this. And then they teach some of the students these crazy ideas. Not all of them, but I talked to some who teach like this. *Prabhupāda: The more you fight with these rascals, the more you advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are a fighting soldier. Kṛṣṇa very much appreciates. (long pause) So you take Bhagavad*-gītā by your own interpretation, and I take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So who is right? Who will decide this? You interpret in your own way. I don't interpret. I take it as it is. Now we are two parties. So who is correct? Amogha: They say because so many others... Prabhupāda: No, no, there are two parties. That's all. Others means one who interprets, that is one party. And there is one party who does not interpret. So who is correct? Amogha: They say, "We are right because we are more." They say, "We are many..." Prabhupāda: Many asses means there is an opinion? Many asses give some opinion. Is that opinion? Śrutakīrti: They say so. Amogha: They say we are Ph.D., and there are so many swamis and things like this. Prabhupāda: Oh, majority. Śrutakīrti: Democratic method. Amogha: Majority rules. Gaṇeśa: The result will show. Prabhupāda: Yes. That democracy is the ruination of civilization. Amogha: But actually many of them appreciate the actual translation because it's so much more clear. It's just that before, they didn't read it. Many of them, now they are reading it, they appreciate it very much Prabhupāda: So we want to remain in the minority. We don't want to be ruled by the majority. *Paramahaṁsa: Actually, anybody who is serious about spiritual life can accept Bhagavad*-gītā as it is, and the others take all the other spiritualists'... Amogha: Actually, these professors aren't interested in spiritual life. They're just thinking. They just think and talk, but they're not interested in spiritual life either way. They don't follow the other commentary... Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual life. Paramahaṁsa: They consider spiritual life as simply a department of philosophy. Prabhupāda: Yes, psychology. Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is reality they do not understand. They take it as something mental position. (long pause) Gaṇeśa: All of these gurus are being exposed. Just like Guru Maharaji. Paramahaṁsa: Generally people don't believe it if someone says he is God. Prabhupāda: The first thing is: what wonderful thing he has done, that he is God? People have no common sense. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God. There are so many wonderful things done by Kṛṣṇa. Now what has he done that we accept that he is God? He has fallen in love with his secretary; any common sweeper also becomes. Paramahaṁsa: That is his līlā. Prabhupāda: The sweeper's līlā. (laughter) (long pause) Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes if we go out to preach and we go away from the association of devotees, what can we do to make sure that we... *Prabhupāda: You go at least two. Don't go alone. That is the system. When you go to preach, you must go at least two. If possible, more than two. Don't go alone. That is not the system. (pause) This Guru Mahārāja (Guru Maharaj*-ji) cannot go back to India? Amogha: No, he cannot leave India. He went to India to struggle with his brother and mother. Prabhupāda: Oh. So now it is... Amogha: Now the court says, "You cannot leave India until we settle this." They've issued a court order not to leave India. Prabhupāda: That is good. Amogha: Yes. He can remain there. (pause) Prabhupāda: The case is... Who is the complainer? Amogha: Well, originally... The story is something that the father started the whole movement, and then he died. Prabhupāda: He was a great cheat. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, chief cheat. *Amogha: Yes. And his wife cheater, she wanted to carry it on and her eldest son was named God, or the leader. And..., but she thought that this Guru Maharaj*-ji was better, more appealing to the people. So she changed and said, "He can be the leader." Then he started the Western movement. And then he began... She noticed that he was becoming playboy instead of God. And so she began the trouble in India, and she claimed that he was no longer suitable because he was eating meat and intoxication and becoming a playboy, all these things. Dancing. So she started the trouble in India, and she wants to reinstate the elder brother as the leader and take away the younger one, Guru Maharaj-ji. So that's how the trouble started. Prabhupāda: So that her business may go on. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: First of all she tried the youngest son. When he is failure, now replace him. Paramahaṁsa: Actually, he was a good investment. She made a lot of money on the younger son, probably more than she would have on this older one. Because the older one is not so attractive. He's kind of ugly. This younger one is very... Prabhupāda: Attractive? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, kind of cute. Everyone thought he was cute. (laughter) Young, fat... Amogha: So now he has gone to India to try to win the battle, and in the course he has been sued, and the court order says he must stay until the suit is finished. *Gaṇeśa: When the movement first came out to Australia about three or four years ago, one of his disciples who was a girl, she came through Perth, and at that time I was arguing Bhagavad*-gītā with her, but she could not understand. She could not see that it was Kṛṣṇa to surrender to and not Guru Maharaj-ji. Amogha: Whenever we place a good argument with them, they say, "Yes, but all these words are just words, and actually it is beyond words. The truth is beyond words. So never mind." Prabhupāda: You are talking words. You are not beyond. Amogha: Then they should not talk anything. Prabhupāda: "Please stop your talking because you are not beyond, you are talking also like me." Paramahaṁsa: They say that the Absolute Truth is beyond words. That way we don't have to explain anything about it. Prabhupāda: So we don't say beyond words. You say. But you are talking, therefore you cannot speak about Absolute Truth. Amogha: Well, they don't. Paramahaṁsa: They only talk nonsense. Amogha: They don't like to argue about the Absolute Truth. They'll only talk nonsense. Prabhupāda: Why you are holding meetings? Big, big meeting arrangements, why do you make? Amogha: Well, they hold the meeting and they say, "You come to us and take knowledge," that's all. Prabhupāda: That is word, that is word. Paramahaṁsa: But they say it's something else. Prabhupāda: You are using words, canvassing. Why do you say beyond words? The word is helping you. Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say, "The actual knowledge is beyond words. You come and take knowledge from us and you will see that it's beyond words." Prabhupāda: The beginning is words. So where is the absolute knowledge? Paramahaṁsa: They say, "That you have to take from us." If you ask them to describe it, they say, "No, no, you have to..." Prabhupāda: This is not... Better hate to talk with them. Paramahaṁsa: Better to... *Prabhupāda: Yes, don't talk with them. So lower*-grade men they are, it is useless to talk with him. Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: "God is detained by the word of court." He has no power to defy the words of court. Paramahaṁsa: The judge will judge him. Prabhupāda: And he is God. Amogha: Yes. He will probably bribe the judge. That will be the real... Prabhupāda: That is possible. Everything is possible. Amogha: Because he is so rich he can pay the judge a few million rupees, and the judge will say, "Yes, yes, he is God." By court's rule. Prabhupāda: Then the other party will go to appeal. Where he is being judged, in the Supreme Court or lower court? *Amogha: I'm not sure. Actually, the judgment is whether or not he put a false picture in the newspaper of his brother with a girl. The older brother is claiming that... First he put a picture in the paper showing the younger Guru Maharaj*-ji kissing an American girl. So Guru Maharaj-ji put another counter-photo showing his older brother with an American girl. So the suit is over whether this second picture is a real picture or is it artificially made. That's what the court will decide. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is the suit. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So in other words, the case is that God cannot kiss an American girl. (laughs) Is that the case? (laughter) Amogha: Well, not in public. *Śrutakīrti: The mother's claim is that the Guru Maharaj*-ji is not fit to be the leader now because he is... Prabhupāda: Because he has kissed one American girl? Paramahaṁsa: Well, not one, but many. Prabhupāda: Many. Śrutakīrti: It's his character in general has degraded. Amogha: That was the initiation. Paramahaṁsa: She says he has fallen down and this is evidence. Amogha: God has fallen down. Prabhupāda: That means kissing one American girl is falldown. Is that the case? Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: So why it is falldown? Kṛṣṇa, He kissed so many gopīs. He can defend like that. Śrutakīrti: He may do that. Prabhupāda: Do that. He is the same Kṛṣṇa. Now, formerly Kṛṣṇa used to kiss cowherd girls. And He is kissing American girls. Where is the wrong? Śrutakīrti: But this was in public. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa also do in public. Paramahaṁsa: But he cannot do anything like lift Goverdhana Hill or have sixteen thousand wives. Prabhupāda: That is both for them. Let them lift only one mound weight. Then they will come. But they cannot do, neither of them. That is impossible. They have not killed any demons. They are taking advantage of the foolishness of some people. That's all. Amogha: The only quality they have exhibited is expertness in cheating. That is their qualification. [break] Paramahaṁsa: (in car) Because so many of them are saying that "I am God," they become envious of one another, and then they fight and expose each other. Prabhupāda: Competition. God's competition. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. And then everyone can see that they are simply materialists. Prabhupāda: Not only he, but there are many others claim to become God. All of them should be brought into the court. Paramahaṁsa: Didn't Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura do that once? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: What was the penalty that he...? Prabhupāda: He put into the jail for six months. And he died in the jail. He took poison. Because after coming out of the jail, he could not do his business. He's finished. Gaṇeśa: Also Paundraka. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa cut his head immediately. Let this Guru Mahārāja cut the heads of the opposition, that "You do not accept me God, I cut your head." Let him cut the head of his brother or mother. Paramahaṁsa: (laughing) He may do that. Prabhupāda: Then we can understand he is God. Why does he go to the mercy of court? And the court has detained him. What kind of God...? So can you get charcoal? Amogha: Charcoal, yes Prabhupāda: Yes, get it. (end) Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth Paramahaṁsa: I understood that you approach psychiatry, psychology, from the point of eastern philosophy. Prabhupāda: So, what can I do for you? Psychiatrist: I have no question. Prabhupāda: He has no question? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: Then, what shall I say? *Paramahaṁsa: I don't know, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He had told me that he has read your Bhagavad*-gītā. He has a copy. Do you have any questions about the Bhagavad-gītā? Has he understood it? Psychiatrist: I just wished to meet you. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Paramahaṁsa: He says he just wished to meet you. Perhaps I should read a verse. Should I read a verse? *Prabhupāda: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body-anyone, but we specially take the human society-they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād-guṇa [SB 5.18.12]. Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The civil surgeon said that "So far my experience is concerned-I have treated so many persons*-in my opinion everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion, but so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad." Similarly, our study is that unless one is mad, he cannot remain in this material world. So everyone is mentally diseased, and they are concocting their ideas, different ideas. And they are overlapping, my idea, your idea overlapping. Therefore there is clash, unhappiness, violence, individually, socially, familywise, nationwise. This is going on. Therefore everyone requires a treatment, psychiatrist's treatment. And the best treatment is to induce a person to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, a person who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious, he is basically a mad man and requires treatment. (pause) Ghostly haunted man... You have experienced ghostly haunted man? Paramahaṁsa: In Woodsaw (?) there was a ghost. In St. Kilda the devotees used to think there was a ghost, but not a man who was called... Prabhupāda: There is ghost. And sometimes ghost attacks a man. Because he has no material body, he wants to act through other's body. So the man who is attacked, he forgets himself, and he speaks and walks according to the dictation of the ghost. That is called ghostly haunted man. Śrutakīrti: What is the significance of... What is this? *Prabhupāda: He talks nonsense. Suppose his father comes before him, he calls him by ill names, like that. He talks nonsense. So anyone who is too much materially affected, he also talks nonsense. Anartha upāsamaṁ sākṣād bhakti*-yogam adhokṣaje. The treatment is bhakti-yoga. That we are teaching. Without any exception, we accept everyone a patient for psychiatric treatment. He has this book? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then all other books we can show him. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, does the soul, the ghost, enter into the other man's body? The soul is occupying one body, and the ghost, as another soul, does he enter that body? There's two souls in the one body? *Prabhupāda: Not exactly enters, but he catches the body. But because the ghost has no gross body-he has got his subtle body, mind, intelligence, and ego*-you cannot see him, how he has attacked that body. You cannot see the body of mind, intelligence. You know I have got my mind; I know you have got your mind. But you do not see my mind; I do not see your mind. So ghost is within the subtle body: mind, intelligence, and ego. So with that subtle body, he attacks the man, but you cannot see. He does not enter into him. The enter is the soul within the body. Therefore sometimes ghost is walking in the room. We cannot see. But he takes away something. We see that the thing is going away. (laughter) Because you cannot see his gross body. And because he hasn't got gross body, he can move very swiftly. Now he is here; he can go ten miles away immediately. But there is ghost. And they attack specially woman. Paramahaṁsa: Is that because the women are weaker? Prabhupāda: No. Woman is attractive for any man, even in ghostly life. The other day, who was telling that a big poet of India, he said that "God's most wonderful creation is woman's body"? Śrutakīrti: I think Brahmānanda Mahārāja mentioned? Acyutānanda. *Prabhupāda: So, everyone is attracted with the woman's body. In your country I have seen the advertisement: "bottomless," "topless..." That is the material attraction. Everyone is in this material world on account of attachment. And similarly, for woman, the man's body is beautiful. So in this way both of them are attached to one another. That is the basic principle of material life. Yan maithunādi*-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham [SB 7.9.45]. They become attached. On account of sex life, they become more attached, and therefore both of them remain almost perpetually in this material world, and to satisfy different desires they transmigrate from one body to another. And on account of accepting this material body, there is always miserable condition. Therefore everyone requires the psychiatric treatment so that the mind may be transferred from matter to spirit soul. Then he will be cured. The disease is of the mind. Harāv abhaktasy kuto mahād-guṇa mano-rathena. Everyone is riding on the chariot of mind. And the mind is taking him here and there, here... And the yoga practice is also treatment. This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary haṭha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind. Treatment of mind means controlling the senses. Yoga indriya-samyamaḥ. Mind is the leader of the senses. So if the treatment of the mind is done properly, then the senses work properly. The example is the madman. Because the madman's mind is not controlled, he is acting in a way-people say, "Here is a madman." So everyone is more or less a madman in this material world, or, in other words, you can say anyone who is in the material world, he is a madman. He requires treatment. Just like anyone who is in the prison house, it is to be accepted that he is a criminal. Without any study, without any exception we can accept all the prisoners as criminals. [break] ...gradually appreciate. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This treatment is in the beginning just cleansing the mirror of the heart. That is the treatment. Just like a mirror, when it is overcast with dust, it requires cleansing. So the mental mirror is covered with material dust. So it has to be cleansed. That is the treatment. And when it is cleansed, you can see your real face in the mirror. Similarly, as soon as our heart disease, contaminated by the modes of material nature, is cleansed, you can understand what is your real position. That is the success of psychiatric treatment. One comes to know, "What I am." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am spirit soul; *I am not this body." That is called brahma*-bhūtaḥ stage. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. He becomes immediately happy. And happiness means na śocati na kāṅkṣati: "He does not lament, neither he desires." Our present disease is we hanker after things which we do not possess, and when that thing is lost, we lament. So hankering and lamenting. So when one is cleansed in the heart, he has no more hankering or desire. This is the symptom. And samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu: "Then he becomes equal to everyone." Everyone means every living being, man and animal, trees, plants, lower or higher. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Then he enters into the sphere of devotional service. This is the symptom. Then he is perfectly in his original position. Then he is happy. Just like a diseased man. So long the disease is there, he is unhappy. And as soon as the disease is cured, he will be happy. So this material disease, as soon as it is cured, one becomes happy, because he is, by constitution, spiritual being. People have no knowledge even, his..., even about his spiritual identity. Therefore they are unhappy. So if you forget what you have written, then? Paramahaṁsa: Do you remember what you wrote about, which part? About Kṛṣṇa's birth? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's birth? But in Bhagavad*-gītā there is no. Paramahaṁsa: Maybe he means... Indian boy: I've read that in (indistinct) and in other books in Hindi. Paramahaṁsa: He said he read in some other... Indian boy: I've been reading about Kṛṣṇa. Paramahaṁsa: He says he's read many books about Kṛṣṇa in Hindi also. But maybe he means Chapter Four, verse six, where Kṛṣṇa says He comes again in this world in His original form. Do you have any questions about Kṛṣṇa? Indian boy: Actually, I want to know how could I get more involved in, say, in religion, and... Want to become a truer devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, you know, sacrifice myself really. How could I be one of pure devotee? Paramahaṁsa: He wants to know how to become a pure devotee. Prabhupāda: You live with us and you will become pure devotee. They are pure devotees. You live with them and do whatever they are doing, their examples, and you will become pure devotee. Just like in a workshop, if you admit yourself without any knowledge, if you work with the workshop man, gradually you will learn how to work. It is not difficult. Formerly this was the custom in India, that when somebody sends his son to any workshop or any shopkeeper without any pay, so gradually he learns. And the master says, "Now I engage you with some pay." That is the way. Sataṁ prasaṅgāt. By living with devotees, you'll learn devotion. So if you are serious, you are welcome. You can live with us and behave according to the other devotees. Then he's a... Indian boy: Is it possible that I live on my own and still be a devotee? Prabhupāda: That will take long time. That, also, if you follow the regulative principles... It is difficult, little. But easier method is to live with the devotees because the situation and atmosphere in your home is different from devotion. So it is not very helpful. You have got other members in the family? Indian boy: Yes, there is... Prabhupāda: So if you want to do something, they may not like it. So that is impediment. But if you live with the devotees, then you learn quickly the art. You are Indian? Indian boy: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming? Indian boy: I was born in New Delhi. Prabhupāda: Oh. How you came here? Indian boy: Well, my parents moved to Fiji Islands, and I was with them. And then we all came to Australia. Prabhupāda: She is also Indian? Indian boy: Yes. Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are? Indian girl: My parents were born in India and I was brought up in Fiji. Prabhupāda: Now they are in Fiji? Indian girl: No. Prabhupāda: Where? Indian girl: My mother's in Australia and my father's in Fiji. Prabhupāda: Oh. So where are your parents? Where they are, your parents? Indian girl: They are separated. Paramahaṁsa: She says they're separated. One lives in Sydney and one lives in Fiji. Prabhupāda: In Fiji there are many Indians. Indian boy: Yes, there are. Prabhupāda: The language is in Hindi? Fiji? Indian boy: Indians speak Hindi, Fijians they speak Fijian. Prabhupāda: Fijians they are Europeans? No. Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: They are natives. Indian boy: Natives. Prabhupāda: They are civilized? No. Indian boy: I suppose they are. (laughs) Many of them. Those who live a long time near Lautoka. Paramahaṁsa: He says those who live in the cities, they are civilized. But others, they live in the villages, not very civilized. You have any other question? Indian boy: No. Prabhupāda: They have questions? No. (pause) You have got desire to become a devotee? Indian boy: Pardon? Prabhupāda: You have a desire to become devotee? Indian boy: Yes, I have. Prabhupāda: So then where is your desire, fulfill it. What you are doing here? Indian boy: Actually, I've got three friends from work in Sydney, and we started traveling around the country, and we ended up in Perth with no money. So we are here from last four months trying to get a job and save some money and go back to Sydney. Prabhupāda: So not getting job? Indian boy: Jobs are very scarce in Perth. We've been trying very hard, but so far, it's no go. Prabhupāda: So here we have no arrangement. Huh? Śrutakīrti: No. Here there's no arrangement. In Sydney or Melbourne there would be some facility. Prabhupāda: New Delhi you were born? How long you have come? Indian boy: I was just nine months old when we left Delhi. Prabhupāda: So Australia, they are inviting people to come here for working, but how is that? They do not get job? Paramahaṁsa: They are not in control. There is a jobless rate, unemployment. They call it unemployment. It goes out of control. Sometimes people lose their jobs, and they can't find a job. But the government is not able to control the economy very well. All over the world this happens. So sometimes people try to get a job and they can't get the job. Prabhupāda: There is enough jobs if the government arranges to engage them in growing food. But there is no such arrangement. Paramahaṁsa: No. There is so much land in Australia. Prabhupāda: The government should have some arrangement for engaging... (end) Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth *Prabhupāda: ...change your views victimized by these rascals. The rascals are very strong. [break] In the Sixteenth Chapter of Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ janā na vidur āsurāḥ. Asura. Asura, demons, demonic civilization, demonic people, they do not know what is pravṛtti and what is nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means material civilization, and nivṛtti means spiritual civilization. The modern man does not know. They are neither educated about this pravṛtti and nivṛtti. And we are speaking on nivṛtti, and all of them are in the pravṛtti. So they cannot understand. It is foreign to them. They have no idea what is spiritual life, spiritual civilization. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa spoke of all these things very clearly. Later on, the things, from the beginning of Kali-yuga, the things are deteriorating, and therefore different types of religion has sprung up. The Buddhism, Christianism, Mohammedanism. They are not perfect understanding of religious principle. And gradually the number of so-called religious section are increasing. Our Mr. Nanda is presenting another religion, mānava-dharma. Everyone is manufacturing. And Vivekananda is supporting, "Yes, every type of religious system is as good." This is nonsense. Actually, they do not know what is religion. (pause) *Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Śrī Īśopaniṣad it is said that one must learn the process of nescience alongside with the process of self*-realization. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Gaṇeśa: In the *Īśopaniṣad*, pravṛtti with nivṛtti. How is that? Prabhupāda: What is that pravṛtti and nivṛtti? *Amogha: He says that in the Īśopaniṣad it says that you should learn the process of self*-realization side by side with the process of nescience. *Prabhupāda: Nescience, yes. That is pravṛtti and nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means sense enjoyment. And nivṛtti means self-negation. So when we say that "You shall not have illicit sex," and their inclination is illicit sex, so therefore it is revolutionary. They are materialistic persons. They want sex enjoyment to the best capacity-homosex, this sex, that sex, naked dance, all sexually inclined, pravṛtti. And we say, "Stop this," nivṛtti. They do not like it because āsura. Pravṛtti jagat. They do not know this is essential. They do not know it. This is essential. Tapasā brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. Tapasya means brahmacarya. The so-called swamis, they are coming for this so-called yoga practice and..., but they are themself victim of sex. This is going on. Actually, it is a bluff*-they have become swami and teaching some yoga system-because they do not know that one has to stop this first of all. Brahmacaryena. So this bluffing is going on all over the world, and we are speaking just against them. Murkhayopadeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye. If you give instruction to the rascals, he will simply be angry. He will not take advantage of it. This is our position. All the so-called professors, philosophers, they are all in the pravṛtti-mārga. Therefore they are bringing somebody, "Our interpretation is like this." Pravṛtti-mārga. Because if they can find out some support from the śāstra, then they think, "We are secure." This is going on. Pravṛttim ca nivṛttim janā na vidur āsurāḥ. The whole world is full of asuras, descendant of Hiraṇyakaśipu, and it is very difficult. But if we give them chance to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, gradually they will understand. (pause) Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests, popes, they are also in the pravṛtti-mārga. All these, priests, and they have illicit sex. Pravṛtti-mārga. So they are passing, "Yes, you can have homosex with man." They are getting man-to-man marriage. You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just see. Such degraded persons, drinking... They have got hospital for curing their drinking disease. Five thousand patients in a hospital in America, all drunkards, and they are priest. Just see. Simply by dressing long, what is called, overcoat? Śrutakīrti: Cloak. Amogha: Habit? *Prabhupāda: Cloak and cross, they have become. In India also, simply having a thread, a brāhmaṇa. Two*-paisa thread. That's all. Paramahaṁsa: Even the coolies at the train station. *Prabhupāda: And by simply one daṇḍa, one is sannyāsī. This is all over the world. Mussulman, having a long beard, he is Mussulman. Mussuleḥ iman.(?) Musseleḥ means complete, and iman means honest. That is the meaning of Mussulman. Completely honest, completely devoted. Mussuleḥ iman. (long pause) We are not saying just "No sex." We don't say that. We simply say, "No illicit sex," and they do not like it. We don't say "No sex," but simply by saying, "No illicit sex," they don't like. Why? There is a Bengali song, "cakṣe yadi lage bhala kena dadimali" (?) "If I want to see something beautiful, why shall I not see?" That is pravṛtti. "I want to do it. I like to do it. Why should you say, 'No'?" This is the position. "I like to do it. I must do it." This is called pravṛtti (long pause) "I like to interpret Bhagavad*-gītā in this way. Why should you say no?" This is going on. [break] The school students, college students, "I like to copy. Why shall I repress(?) ?" This is education. Here also they copy? Amogha: You mean cheating? Prabhupāda: No, no, copying in examination? Amogha: Oh, yes. Well, what they do is someone sneaks the exam answers out before, and they sell the answers to the questions before the test. Prabhupāda: Just see. Here it is more advanced. Amogha: Yes. Very scientific. Sometimes they get caught, it's in the newspapers. Prabhupāda: Huh? Amogha: Sometimes they are caught by the authorities and it comes in the newspapers, and there's a big scandal because all the students are buying the answers to the questions. Prabhupāda: Just see. The main point is how to get some money. So the teachers are also dishonest. Paramahaṁsa: There's a saying that everyone and everything has its price. Prabhupāda: What is that? Paramahaṁsa: It means that if you pay enough money, you can get anything, or you can get somebody to do anything. Prabhupāda: Yes. The justice, they are taking bribe, giving judgment. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, yes. Policemen. Also the politicians in America, sometimes they win their elections by giving bribes. Prabhupāda: To the voters. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Amogha: Everyone is cheating, but when they find out that the leaders are cheating, everyone becomes upset. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayadharma: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have said that it's impossible to become rich unless one is a cheater. And yet we have our business, our Spiritual Sky business. So how is it possible to carry on business and not become a cheater? Prabhupāda: You can cheat. (laughter) You can cheat. For Kṛṣṇa's sake we can cheat also. But don't be caught. Then it will be scandalous. Gaṇeśa: Thank you. Kṛṣṇa is the biggest cheat. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is big in everything, but you should not imitate, because you are not as big as Kṛṣṇa. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya [SB 10.33.29]. He is very powerful. Before His power, everything becomes vāṇīshed. He remains powerful. But you cannot do that. "Kṛṣṇa is biggest cheater; therefore I shall become a cheater." That is not good policy. Then you will be finished. Just like the example is given that Lord Śiva drank the ocean of poison, and if you drink a drop, you will die. You cannot imitate the most powerful. That is not possible. Jayadharma: You told Madhudviṣa Swami once in Sydney a few years ago that actually you're the biggest cheater because you're stealing away all our māyā. Prabhupāda: What is that? I am... Paramahaṁsa: He says that once you told Madhudviṣa Swami that you are the best cheater because you are taking away all our māyā and making us devotees. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. That kind of cheating is very good. (pause) Christ also spoke about nivṛtti*-mārga. "Thou shall not kill." Because they were practiced to kill, and still they are practiced to killing. The first nivṛtti, "Thou shall not kill." The same thing, "Thou shall not covet." Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the Bible..., we accept that as scripture, but is it all correct, or has it been mistranslated or...? Prabhupāda: It is being misinterpreted still now. That means it was violated from the very beginning. And they are violating. "Thou shall not kill"; he is killing. That's all. That is the position. Paramahaṁsa: They also have that "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are very expert in doing that. That is advanced civilization. Now they are marrying man to man and accepting homosex, so what is the value now of this priestly class? Paramahaṁsa: They have another thing now where they, a man goes to the doctor and has an operation to change his sex from man to woman. Prabhupāda: Sex. Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Or from woman to man. That's called transvestites. Prabhupāda: That is going on? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Successful? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, sometimes. Sometimes they have some difficulties, but they have had many successful operations. [break] She can't have... It can't have a baby. (laughs) Prabhupāda: They are doing? Paramahaṁsa: Well, they're changing, but they can't become pregnant. That's the only thing. They take these special hormones, and then they can grow breasts and everything just like a woman. But they can't become pregnant. Amogha: In the newspaper there was an article about two weeks ago about a Christian church in America where they have a naked dancer come. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Amogha: They had a lady who dances, taking off her clothes, so the people will come to church. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Amogha: Yes. I was very surprised, but they showed a picture. And they said this is a Methodist... I think it was Methodist. Some church... I am not sure which. But anyhow, it was a church... Amogha: That's the only way to get people to come to church. Gaṇeśa: That's why they are called Methodists because they use different methods. Amogha: We saw one church, the church that they got in Montreal for the temple. They, right before the devotees took over the church, they were having rock musicians playing music every night. And in this way they were trying to get people to come to church. And they would sing songs sometimes about religion, using all electrical instruments and everything. Gaṇeśa: This man who is coming to see you today, he also has done this in Perth. Amogha: Dean Hazelwood. Prabhupāda: What he has done? Amogha: He... Sometimes he has electric guitar music for the church prayer ceremony. It's called a rock mass. Gaṇeśa: Rock mass, to attract the young people. Prabhupāda: Will the young men came? Gaṇeśa: Oh, yes. But halfway through, they all go out on the grass and they smoke. (laughter) They simply come to hear the music and that is all... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Amogha: Another thing they do in the churches is they have those bingo games. You were saying in one lecture we shouldn't play bingo. That's very popular. Practically all of the Catholic... Is that Catholic churches? Gaṇeśa: All Christian. Jesus himself, he kicked the moneylenders out of the temple. Amogha: I was talking to one Buddhist monk, and I asked him, "What is your actual practice? What is your daily schedule?" And he said, "Well, we get up around sunrise and go out with our begging bowls and fill it up and then come back at about 11:00 to the temple. And then we sit down and eat everything in the begging bowl. And then we take rest." I said, "What about the rest of the day?" And he said, "Well, that's all free, open time." *Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are distributing Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam and in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you explain that it's best to start from the beginning and go gradually. So... Prabhupāda: No, anywhere you can see. Amogha: So we can distribute any canto. Paramahaṁsa: Usually what happens is a person who gets, say, the Second or Third or Fourth Canto, if he reads that, then he will want to start from the beginning, and he'll buy the First Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, even if he does not read the First Canto, wherever he will read, he will get benefit. Sugar candy you taste from anywhere it is sweet. (long silence) Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous ācāryas. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other, all ācāryas. So I was just wondering... Prabhupāda: I never said that. Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh. Prabhupāda: How is that? Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous ācāryas' books. Prabhupāda: No, you should read. Amogha: We should. Prabhupāda: It is misunderstanding. Paramahaṁsa: I think maybe he was thinking that there was some things about some of the Gauḍīya Maṭha books. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Paramahaṁsa: And sometimes you said that better not to..., better to read your books. Amogha: When the devotees went to India this year, they said that Acyutānanda Swami very..., chastised them that "You should never... If I catch any of you buying Bhaktisiddhānta's books from Gauḍīya Maṭha then I will take it away," something like this. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, that was, the reason was because of, he didn't want the devotees going to Gauḍīya Maṭha. But there's nothing wrong with the idea of studying the previous ācāryas' books. Prabhupāda: No. Who said? That is wrong. We are following previous ācāryas. I never said that. Paramahaṁsa: All of your commentaries are coming from the previous ācāryas. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayadharma: But that wouldn't mean that we should keep all the previous ācāryas' books and only read them. *Prabhupāda: That is already there. You first of all assimilate what you have got. You simply pile up books and do not read*-what is the use? Jayadharma: First of all we must read all your books. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Practically speaking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are giving us the essence of all the previous ācāryas' books in your books. Paramahaṁsa: People don't mind so much suffering if they can suffer with their friends. Prabhupāda: No, no, they are suffering. They are accustomed to so many sufferings. They say they do not mind what is suffering. Paramahaṁsa: Especially if they can bring their friends along. Then they're very happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is heaven. Although there is suffering, it is heaven. Paramahaṁsa: They think that suffering together with your friends is enjoying. Prabhupāda: No, they... Just like the ass. He does not know what is happening. Therefore he is agreeing, "All right, load with me any number of heavy weight. I shall carry." He does not know it is suffering. He has accepted the service of the man, bearing so much load, and he is giving little grass. The grass he can take from here, but he thinks that "He is maintaining me." Just see. This is ignorance. Therefore mūḍhā, this word is used. Suffering, suffering, suffering. Material nature is awarding sufferings after suffering. Still, they are not wake up. Who cares for suffering? [break] ...stand this philosophy that acceptance of this material body is suffering. They will say, "Oh, I have got this American body. I have got so much opulence. What is suffering?" He'll not believe. But real philosophy is that acceptance of this material body, whatever it may be, the demigod or dog, it is suffering. Who will understand? Even the demigods, they do not understand. Devotee (1): They say that "It's natural to die. So everybody has to die. So we just have to accept it." Prabhupāda: No, the philosophy is very simple. You don't want suffering, but where is a person who has got this material body is not suffering? Paramahaṁsa: But then they will say, "Where is a person who has not got this material body?" Prabhupāda: There, that is unknown to them. There is another world where there is no material body. Everyone is in spiritual body. That they do not know. That is ignorance. Paramahaṁsa: They don't feel so bad because they think everyone is suffering, so... Prabhupāda: So nobody feels bad, even the cats and dogs. That does not mean there is no suffering. Cats and dogs... Just like in this car, the gentleman, his wife, and the dog. The dog is feeling more happy. Paramahaṁsa: He has less anxieties. Prabhupāda: Yes. The dog is feeling, "Who can be happier than me?" Paramahaṁsa: Actually, in the West the dogs have a very good program. If they have a good master, then... Prabhupāda: But after all, he is dog. (laughs) That he does not know. He may be, according to his estimation, very well situated. But after all, what he is? He is a dog. That he does not know. That he forgets. [break] Very calm and quiet. [break] ...glass. Is it not? Śrutakīrti: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Now this glass*-making is also becoming obsolete. The plastic is replacing. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yeah. Prabhupāda: The glass industry is finished. (end) Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: Sixteen hundred thousand. And what is their calculation? Devotee (1): 250,000. Amogha: Miles from the earth. Prabhupāda: 459,000? Amogha: 250,000 miles from the earth. They say it is very near the earth and that the sun is very far away. Prabhupāda: [break] ...circumstances, it is now doubtful whether they are going to the moon planet. Amogha: Yes. [break] Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm. Paramahaṁsa: In the newspaper yesterday there was an article about New York City. The city government is going bankrupt because they... They have asked the President for 1,500 million dollars in emergency aid. Because of crime and dirtiness and noise, all the rich people are leaving New York, and they can't get any taxes from the poor people. So they don't have money to pay to run the city. *Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen. New York is very dilapidated, many quarters. And especially Second Avenue, those are very dirty. The... On the Fifth Avenue, that Central Park is also very dirty. This civilization will collapse. It cannot be run on. Fourth*-class men, I tell. Because it is conducted by the fourth-class men. Ask that gentleman why they are asking. Are they not fourth-class men? They could not manage? *Śrutakīrti: That man last night admitted. He said, "Now I must leave and do my fourth*-class activities." *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fourth class. This is the proof. Fourth*-class men administering... Just like misadministration not immediately detected. After some time, when the case is unmanageable, it is detected. Therefore fourth-class men. Simply these Western people, they know how to earn money by hook and crook. So, so long the money is there it is covered, the fourth-class men. And when the money is finished, they are exposed, fourth-class men. They're simply covered by money. No social structure, no spiritual understanding, no character, nothing of the sort. Still India, so fallen, you... 95% people, living, husband and wife, very peacefully. And in the Western countries after six months' marriage, divorce. Are they not fourth class? Even the husband and wife cannot continue peaceful life, what to speak of others. Now this rascal Jawaharlal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society. Otherwise in the Hindu society separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight, everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. (laughter) But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. Even in the life of Gandhi there was fight between husband and wife, and the Gandhi one day drove his wife, "Get out from my home." So she was put into the street, and she began to cry, "Where shall I go?" And then Gandhi ans..., "Come on." Yes. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? The divorce mean it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases. Amogha: Just like that girl who came two days ago, that Indian girl. Her parents were separated. Now she is living thousands of miles away with some boy. Prabhupāda: They are this part of Indian, the Fiji Indians. They have learned the art of divorce. Amogha: They are very Western, westernized. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can the position be reconciled if in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one of the two, the husband or the wife, wants to enjoy sense gratification, but the other does not? Should there be separation then? Prabhupāda: No... They should be trained up. Sense enjoyment means not advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as one is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his sense enjoyment spirit will be reduced. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca [SB 11.2.42]. The test is, how you are advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the proportionate diminishing of sense enjoyment. That is the test. Just like cure of the disease means diminishing the fever, temperature. This is the test. Devotee (1): What if that fever is not being diminished? *Prabhupāda: Then he should try to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, instead of sixteen rounds, sixty*-four rounds. That is the way. Sixteen round is the minimum. Otherwise Haridāsa Ṭhākura was 300,000. So you have to increase. That is the only remedy. If one has got determination, he will make progress without any trouble. That determination is very difficult, that determination, "I must be Kṛṣṇa conscious fully." That determination. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. So they have asked to the central government, federal government, help? Paramahaṁsa: In New York? Yes, they asked from the President, President Ford. Prabhupāda: That is federal government. Paramahaṁsa: Federal government, yes. And President Ford said no. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he said no. He said, "If I give New York money then every city will come for money..." Prabhupāda: Yes... Paramahaṁsa: "...when they have some trouble." He said, "You made the trouble. Now you work it out." *Prabhupāda: That's good answer. "You fourth*-class man, you have created the situation. Now you save the situation." Paramahaṁsa: They used to borrow money from the banks every year, the city government of New York. They used to borrow money from the banks. Prabhupāda: Bank has refused? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, they won't loan any more money because they know the tax money won't come in. Prabhupāda: Just see the position. The bank is refusing loan to the municipal corporation, city corporation. They have no credit. Śrutakīrti: So that means the city will increase their taxes on the public. Prabhupāda: But if the public is moving from the city, where is the source of taxation? Paramahaṁsa: That's the big problem. All the rich people are leaving because they're getting so much tax and so many other problems. And big business also is leaving. Prabhupāda: Where they are leaving? Paramahaṁsa: Just to the suburbs, outside the city. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śrutakīrti: Also they move their headquarters to other cities, newer cities. Just like in Dallas, that area. Atlanta. *Prabhupāda: This artificial way of life will lead to such disasters. It is a most artificial way of life. It is not natural way. This bus goes this way*-I see every day vacant, no passenger. And still, they have to run as scheduled. They cannot stop it. That means so much wastage. Not only bus, I have seen aeroplane. From Nairobi to London, you have seen? We were five passengers or four passengers. No passengers. Śrutakīrti: Four or three, maybe three. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen? Yes. Such a big plane, consuming so much petrol, vacant passenger. No except ourselves. Śrutakīrti: Many times we have had that experience. Devotee (1): That is what is happening with these big planes. They're building these big... Amogha: 747's. Devotee (1): No... Paramahaṁsa: Can't remember the name. You mean the supersonic ones? Devotee (1): Yeah, the big jets, and no one can... There's not enough people to fly in them. Therefore they have to finish them. They have to scrap their big jets. They're not of any use because there's not enough people to fly. They're coming to the end of their technological research. Also in the cars they cannot... There's one car, the Volkswagen. They cannot refine the body any more, so now they're simply making the same car each year without any change in the design, because they've reached the perfection of their design and they're not making any more advancement. They're coming to a halt. Prabhupāda: When they will come to a halt to their sex desire? They have designed so many ways sex desire. The... Who was telling me that some beach, all naked women are there? Amogha: Oh, yes. In Australia also. They reserve a certain beach for naked bathers. Prabhupāda: So this is also sex desire. When it will come to end? Most artificial civilization. And the man who came, he is meant for solving the problems, huh? Amogha: Yes. Usually those type of persons, they just study the problems, but... Prabhupāda: So what is the study? Anyone can study. Just like we are giving: "It is a most artificial civilization." Śrutakīrti: He's drawing a big salary for studying. He's getting a big research salary. Paramahaṁsa: And he's teaching others how to study the problems, but there's no solution. Amogha: They have no solution actually. Prabhupāda: The solution is there. They won't take it. Solution is there, that everyone produce your own food. There is so much land; utilize it. The solution is there. No. They want to sit down on the table, chair, in a very nice compartment, and making solution. They won't go. Amogha: He was saying that your solution was too simple. He said that people will not accept it because it is too simple. Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. They will say it is primitive. That is the only solution. According to the Vedic system, you cannot use anything which you cannot produce. Suppose this we are using, but according the Vedic system we should not use it because I cannot produce it. Then the whole solution is there. Nobody will manufacture this because there will be no customer. If I refuse this use of this machine, thinking that "I cannot produce it; *I should not use it," then where is the customer? The so*-called industry will automatically stop, and he has to go to the village outlying. Paramahaṁsa: Some of the orthodox hippies have this philosophy, and they reject all machines and things that they cannot make themselves. *Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. It is good. But they are not led by good leader. Otherwise next alternative is this, that you have to give up this artificial way of civilization. Now this land is vacant. We can produce so much food grains if it is utilized. Fruits, flower, vegetables, grains*-we can produce. This land is very good land for producing potato, watermelon, this. Very good land. But who is doing that? This is the suitable land for producing watermelon. And watermelon is such a nice thing, and potato. You boil potato and take watermelon, you have full nourishment are supplied. Very innocent and simple food. Paramahaṁsa: In one science magazine they have published recently there's an article by a man who says we must eat meat because the plants don't have any fatty tissues for making brain tissue, so they say... Prabhupāda: Rascal. So your brain is causing disaster; still you are developing brain? (laughter) Your brain is causing bankruptcy, and still you want to develop this rubbish brain? Begging money, "You give us money so that we can maintain"? And what is the use of this brain? Burn this brain. Advise him that "You better burn your brain so that you may not create any more disaster." To keep his brain, one animal must be sacrificed. And the brain work is this, that they are creating disaster. What is the use of this brain? Paramahaṁsa: He says that the brain of man is bigger because man has been eating meat for so long. Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. "A blind man is leading other blind men." Devotee (1): Instead of using the land to grow potatoes and watermelons, they're simply using it to build more offices for tables and chairs to study the situation. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (pause) Life will be more more dangerous in this Kali*-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic. Amogha: But if they actually go to the forest, then that will be one step. *Prabhupāda: No, it is disappointment. It is simply disappoint... That is not solution. But people will do that. When the one is mad he doesn't know what to do-"Let me go to the forest." Achinna dāra*-draviṇaṁ gacchanti giri-kānanam, it is said. Giri means mountain, and kānanam means forest. Giving up their hearth and home... They are already giving up the home, wife, children, and going away. Everybody doing that. Paramahaṁsa: Actually, in so many cases the hippies, they went to the forest, and because there was no standard of spiritual life there, they became discouraged also. They ran into the same problems in the forest that they had in the cities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: So therefore many of these communities that they started back in, about ten years ago, 1960's, they have all folded up because there was nothing to hold them together. *Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no engagement. Therefore we are proposing that eat nicely, live nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the engagement. But they have no such engagement. How they will live? Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta*-sūtra 1.1.12). Every living entity wants some pleasure, but this pleasure is finished. Therefore athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now they seek... Let them seek out pleasure from Brahmān. So that they do not know. Now the situation is then no monies. Then they will tax. Those who are living, they will be disturbed by taxation. They have no other means. Kara-piditaḥ. Kara means tax, and pidita means disturbed. They will be like that. Amogha: And they will also be forced out. Prabhupāda: Yes. Such a huge city, if there is no money, they will tax those who are living there more and more. That is the only alternative. If you want actually peaceful life, then produce your own necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read these books. This is the only solution. There is no other solution. What is the use of running fifty miles by car to go to one's office and sit down in the office and make plan how to exploit others? This way? This is the business:" Make some plan, bluff people, advertisement, and money will come." This is their business. They are not giving anything, simply bluffing. Just like crossword. They are engaged in making solution. You know that, crossword? Amogha: The crossword? You mean the puzzle? *Prabhupāda: Yes. And the whole day they are making solution. This is their means of earning money. I have seen it. (pause) (chuckles) He has taken that word very seriously, "fourth*-class men." The whole civilization is condemned and producing fourth-class men. And that's a fact. Amogha: The intelligent man will have to admit it. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Amogha: With all the universities and high*-class schools they're simply producing... *Prabhupāda: Fourth*-class men. Amogha: Yeah. *Prabhupāda: They are discussing in the university homosex. They are advanced. Advancement of education. Just see. They are not even fourth*-class men; *they are animals, producing so many animals, that's all, dogs and hogs. [break] ...in the beginning śamaḥ. Śamaḥ, damaḥ*-first two business. Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning. Now they are so much sexually disturbed, they're discussing about the profit of homosex. Where is first-class men? Amogha: They say that homosex keeps the balance of things because... *Prabhupāda: Yes, fourth*-class man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not going to hear of it. A fourth-class man's philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear them-that's not good. They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth class has got some position, but they are narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil his time to hear about their philosophy? [break] Paramahaṁsa: In that verse it says, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. What is the difference between jñānam and vijñānam? Prabhupāda: Jñānam means theoretical, vijñānam means practical. Devotee (1): Saṅkīrtana movement is vijñānam. Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) [break] He is in goodness but sometimes he is attacked by the other two base qualities, passion and ignorance. Then he falls down. Where there is chance of being contaminated, that is not pure goodness. Pure goodness is never contaminated. That is (unclear). Amogha: So pure goodness actually means those eight qualities mentioned in the *Gītā* but without any contamination of the lower qualities. Prabhupāda: Yes. In the material world, goodness is prone to be contaminated. In the spiritual world, the other two qualities, they are not existing. So there is no question of contamination. Here all men are covered by these two base qualities, all men and animal, everyone, passion and ignorance. Therefore, first of all, they have to be brought to the platform of goodness. And if they can keep goodness uncontaminated, they are transferred to the spiritual world. Devotee (1): Just like you say. Some of the devotees, they fall down although they're striving to be in the mode of goodness. If they're sincere, they still fall down? Prabhupāda: If they are sincere, how they can fall down? They are not sincere; therefore they fall down. Amogha: Madhudviṣa Swami was telling us once that sincerity must be combined with spiritual strength. Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual strength means sincerity and sincerity means spiritual strength. If I promise before the fire, before the Deity, before my spiritual master that "I shall observe the rules and regulation," and if I don't follow, then where is my sincerity? *Devotee (1): But the devotees, they're trying to be in the mode of goodness. In the Bhagavad*-gītā... Prabhupāda: Well, the trying... Then why do you take initiation and promise? You are trying. First of all, you be fixed up. Why do you cheat Kṛṣṇa, the spiritual master, the fire? If you are not fixed up, you should not take initiation. Go on. *Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad*-gītā Arjuna asks... Prabhupāda: No, you can fall down unconsciously. But if you fall consciously, that is cheating. I do not want. I am trying to keep myself steady, but still, if I fall, that is excused. But if you purposely... Just like the Christian atonement. They go to the church and admit, "Yes, I have done these sinful activities, so I pay you something. Excuse it." That is not sincerity. And again, next week, he does the same thing. That is not sincerity. Paramahaṁsa: What would an example of unconscious falldown be? Prabhupāda: Unconscious falldown, that... Suppose I am prone to... I was very much fond of smoking, but I have given up. So in a society there is smoking, so I become induced. He offers me cigarette, and unconsciously I smoke. Then I must repent, "Oh, what I have done?" That is excused. But if I secretly smoke and outwardly I show I am a devotee, then what is this? This is cheating. *Devotee (1): Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā that sometimes the living entities are compelled to act because of lust. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): Even unwillingly. Prabhupāda: That is... Unwillingly, when it is done, that is excused. And willingly, when it is done, it is cheating. That in your America there was a Moral Rearmament Movement. So it flourished for some days. Their process was admit, admission of sinful activities, that Christian method. "So I will admit. That's all. Again I do. 'Yes, I have done this.' Then my all reaction is gone. Then again I do it." That is described in the Bhāgavata, kuñjara-śaucavat, the elephant, elephant's cleanliness. Elephants cleanse very nicely in the water, and as soon as come on the land, they will take dust and throw, immediately. So what is the use of cleansing? Kuñjara-śaucavat. You cleanse; again you become unclean. Then what is the use of cleaning? Paramahaṁsa: Many devotees wish... Now they have become devotees and have had so much bad training, they wish that they could have gone to Gurukula so they would not be so mistrained. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy in Sydney, he has been a devotee for a few years, three or four years, but now he has fallen away because of lusty association, I suppose, or bad association. So is this unwilling or willing, because he has become attracted to women again? Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no woman should live in the temple. That is the... Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Christians have one place for the women and another place for the men. But we find the women can't organize themselves very well, so it is difficult to organize something like that also. Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we do not give up lusty desires, either we keep separately or together they fall down in the... All these nuns, they are all complicated, although they live separately. There was a convent school in Calcutta, and it was detected that the head minister was supplying women outside for business. Now one brahmacārīṇi āśrama is started. This means that the authority of this āśrama, they supply young women to rich, richer class, and they pay money. Business is going on. Amogha: Where is that āśrama? Prabhupāda: Brahmacārīṇi. Amogha: Oh. In Calcutta? Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only in India. They have got many branches. Amogha: They call them brahmacārīṇi? Prabhupāda: Yes. Because nowadays almost every girl is unmarried. So they have devised this āśrama that "Come here." And women can be sold at any cost. People are lusty. So one woman supplied, he pays hundred rupees, two hundred rupees. Business is going on. Amogha: They come for pilgrimage? *Prabhupāda: No, no. They will be sent to your house. Pay for it. Hotel. In the Kali*-yuga the sex impulse is so strong, but it is utilized in so many ways. The yogis, swamis, school, college, philosophy-at the end sex, that's all. That example, dog's tail. Whatever you do, greasing, the tail will be like this. [break] I think it is sooner. It takes time less than for going there. Devotee (1): Oh, I came the short way. Prabhupāda: Oh, he came by the short way. Devotee (1): . Yes. Prabhupāda: [break] This man is unemployed... (end) Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth Paramahaṁsa: ...kinds of ideas and that we have ideas that can be very useful for them. So actually there is a... *Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to understand what is the basic principle of civilization, what we want to fulfill, what is the goal. There are different species of life beginning from aquatics, fishes and animals in the water. Then, as the water dries up, then vegetation come. In this way there is evolution from aquatics to vegetable life, then moving, insects, reptiles. Then, gradually, birds. From insect, the flies come out, and then flies gradually comes to bird. Then from birds to beast, four*-legged. Then from beast to human being. Then human being, the aborigines, uncivilized. Then you come to civilized life, which is generally known as Aryan life. So the Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization... In this way we get this human form of life, developed consciousness. Now we should try to understand, "What I am? Am I this body or something else?" That is the subject matter of enquiry. So where is that department of knowledge? Justin Murphy: Where do we fit in? Prabhupāda: Yes. Justin Murphy: We, the organization that I work for, the government that I work for, is, of course, very, very different, no doubt, in ideas and in philosophies to all of you, and you for example. We work within, however, a situation where we are concerned that within the framework of Australia's society, which involves people, private enterprise, industry, increasing population, all of these placing demands on what naturally is Australia, what you were talking about to begin with. The evolution of Australia, the continent, the land mass, and the birds, the animals. Of course, we have a magnificent and unique and diverse fauna and flora. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. *Justin Murphy: These we must try to protect and preserve for two reasons. Our ideas are that we must, we have to be, to an extent, slaves to the twentieth-century civilization, or what we call the nowhere civilization. In other words, our function stops or is frustrated if a government won't give us money to continue our work and our research. So in other words, we have to direct a large part of our research towards people and making life and opportunities better for people. We can't, however, do that*-we can't improve agricultural production, we can't improve forests, we can't improve recreational opportunities in the forest lands around cities-if we don't consider sympathetically, thoughtfully, and scientifically the natural resources of Australia. So it's interesting that you mentioned to begin with in the evolution, say of the evolutionary cycle in Australia, you mentioned the aborigines. The aborigines were in fact far better at maintaining and conserving the central Australian landscapes, the central Australian arid regions, than any Australian since European colonization. Prabhupāda: Did the aborigines...? They were growing their food, the aborigines? *Justin Murphy: Oh, no, no, no, no. The aborigines grew nothing really. They were nomadic. They were mostly meat*-eaters and insect-eaters. There are... For example, one of the staples of the aborigines was a very thick and very fat grub called a witchity grub, which lived in the roots of certain low bushes, and they used to tear the bush over and these fat grubs would appear which would be eaten live and raw. Prabhupāda: Without cooking. Justin Murphy: No cooking. No cooking. Immediately, wiggling. The fresher the better. They used to eat small furry animals, bandicoots, wombats. There were no rabbits, of course, in those days. Rabbit has been a disaster introduced by man, by European man. But they used to occasionally pound the grass seeds from a few species of arid sand grasses and make a kind of an unleavened bread, which they would then bake. But generally the aborigines were nomadic, they were shifting, and they didn't cultivate. They didn't till the soil ever. But we must, whilst attempting to provide for the inevitable Australian people and the growth of population, we must also try to do that within the confines and the dictates of nature and the natural resources which we have. Australia is very rich in a lot of natural resources; it's very, very poor in others. It is quite poor in water, and, of course, water is absolutely basic to the growth process. Australia has abundant sunlight, solar energy, which is the basis of photosynthesis. Prabhupāda: Vegetable. Justin Murphy: And vegetable growth. But we lack water. And in Perth we are doing an excellent job at ruining our water. It's criminal in many respects, what is going on. And this is what we must do. So we are trying to strike a balance between science for and research for the benefit of people. But it must be also for the benefit of the environment, because... *Prabhupāda: You find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Annād. A*-n-n-a-d. Annād. *Paramahaṁsa: A*-n-n-a-d. Hm. Prabhupāda: Find out. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: Purport. *Paramahaṁsa: Purport: "Śrīla Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, a great commentator on the Bhagavad*-gītā, writes as follows: ye indrādy-aṅgatayāvasthitaṁ yajñaṁ sarveśvaraṁ viṣṇum abhyarcya tac-cheṣam aśnanti tena tad deha-yātrāṁ sampādayanti, te santaḥ sarveśvarasya bhaktāḥ sarva-kilbiṣair anādi-kāla-vivṛddhair ātmānubhava-pratibandhakair nikhilaiḥ pāpair vimucyante(?). The Supreme Lord, who is known as the yajña-puruṣaḥ, or the personal beneficiary of all sacrifices, is the master of all demigods who serve Him as the different limbs of the body serve the whole. Demigods like Indra, Candra, Varuṇa, etc., are appointed officers who manage material affairs, and the Vedas direct sacrifices to satisfy these demigods so that they may be pleased to supply air, light and water sufficiently to produce food grains. When Lord Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, the demigods, who are different limbs of the Lord, are also automatically worshiped; therefore there is no separate need to worship the demigods. Prabhupāda: Did you follow? So the only remedy is that you should perform yajña. And this yajña is, in this age, yajña, performance of yajña, is very costly affair. At the present moment, things are not available. So you should perform yajña. If you don't perform yajña, then nature will restrict supply and put so many impediments. That yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ... [Bg. 3.14]. If you regularly perform yajña, then there will be sufficient rainfall. There is sufficient water. Just like all around there is water. There is no scarcity of water. But you cannot touch it without God's intervention. The same water will be converted into cloud and will be distributed on the land, and the water again glide down to the reservoir of water. This is nature's way. But if you do not perform yajña, this machine will not work to get water from the sea, convert into cloud, and then distribute. This will be restricted. Justin Murphy: But we must all perform yajña? *Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to perform yajña. And that yajña, at the present moment, is very easy, to... Saṅkīrtanaiḥ yajñaiḥ. It is recommended that we have to recognize the authority of the Lord, and in this age, simply by performing saṅkīrtana*-yajña, He will be satisfied. Saṅkīrtana-yajña means to glorify the Lord in so many ways. We glorify the Lord His form, His activities, His name, His quality. So it is not difficult job. We can sit together, family-wise, community-wise, or in office, in factory. We can sit down together and glorify the Lord. Is it very difficult job? Justin Murphy: You make it sound very, very simple of course. Prabhupāda: Yes, then why don't you accept it? Justin Murphy: Well, I for one might. But... Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not talking about you. Justin Murphy: No, no, sure, certainly, but imagine the man, as we have to consider, the men, the thousands of them on their tractors, at their bulldozers, hacking down natural forest... Devotee: He says we have to consider the men who are working the machines to take down the forest for agriculture... Is that what you mean? Justin Murphy: The point I'm making is that there are so many people in Australia who would have no time. They are too busy making money. They are too busy doing what... Prabhupāda: But what you will do with money? If there is no grain, then will you eat money? (laughter) Justin Murphy: Certainly not. *Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Money is not required. Required*-food grains. Justin Murphy: But unfortunately, of course increasingly now, in our society, there is an increasing ability to produce food almost artificially. And this happens more and more... Prabhupāda: Then where is the scarcity? Why you are complaining, "There is scarcity of water." Why? You are complaining, "scarcity." If there is enough food, then why you are complaining about scarcity? *Justin Murphy: Well, I complain because I am a geographer, because I am working with an eye to the future, with an eye to a long*-term situation where I can see that... Prabhupāda: But I... Your problem and my problem is not different. You are thinking... I am not thinking. It may be. But you require food grain, I require food grain, the animals require food grain, and everyone requires food grain. So if there is sufficient food grain, then everyone will be happy. Justin Murphy: Yes, now perhaps. How about in fifty years' time though? Prabhupāda: Huh? Justin Murphy: How about in fifty or a hundred years' time? Prabhupāda: But you were complaining about scarcity of water. Justin Murphy: Yes, sure. Prabhupāda: Gradually... *Justin Murphy: But also... sorry, I don't mean*-and perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough. I do not mean to address myself only to a problem which is here with us right now. Perth, for example, right now this city does not have a scarcity. There's plenty of water around. Seventy percent in fact of the water which is delivered to domestic homes every summer is put on gardens to make them green. It's not used for growing vegetables. It's not used for human consumption or human existence, for supporting human life. It's used for making lawns such as outside this house, making lawns and trees green so that houses will be attractive and the property values will go up. Once again it's the money ethic. It's the money situation. It's what our society exists on. It's what makes it all go around. But what I am worried about is the situation in a hundred years' time. There isn't a scarcity now, although the water is getting, is becoming less and less acceptable, where, by taking down the forests, we're letting more water seep into the soil, it's unlocking the salt that's been in the soil for thousands of years, and so on. Prabhupāda: That's all right. If there is rainfall sufficiently, that water is distilled water, pure water. So if pure water is distributed all over the country... Justin Murphy: It's pure when it hits the ground, but it isn't, unfortunately, when it comes out into the streams. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: He says it's pure when the rain comes down, but when it hits the ground it becomes impure and then the salt gets in it. Prabhupāda: That's all right. It is not... Rain water is pure water. Justin Murphy: Sure. Prabhupāda: So when it touches the ground, it may become impure. It doesn't water (matter). But the water is pure. Water is coming. You cannot take water from the sea and moisten the ground with... That is not possible. But if pure water comes down from the rain, it is utilized. Justin Murphy: But a lot of the water that is in our dams and the water that we use for irrigation south of here, which is the basis for the dairy produce of Perth, is becoming slowly, because of its contact with the ground and its travel through the soil and its seepage out into streams and into underground areas, that water is slowly becoming in many respects almost as salty as the sea. *Prabhupāda: But first of all, you want water. If the water is reserved on the top of the hill, then it gradually comes down. That is nature's, God's, arrangement: Let river fall down, and you can use that water. That is the nature's arrangement. Just like you keep your water on the tank, and by pipe you get down. But there is nature's arrangement. The water is stocked on the top of the hill, and throughout the whole year the pipe is the river. That water must be there. That is the first problem. Therefore here it is said, parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. You must have sufficient water. Water is already there. But it has to be purified, kept on the top of the hill, water tank, and it will come down in rivers. Then you take and utilize. And when the water falls down and there is sufficient water, the ground becomes cleansed so it is no more polluted. Justin Murphy: It's a very complex thing. In the hills outside Perth there are... Prabhupāda: No, this is the general plan that you must have sufficient water. And that water must fall down from the cloud, not by your system you pump out water from the sea and utilize. That is not... Justin Murphy: No, sure, we can't do that. We can't do that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you must have pure water. And that water is manufactured or supplied through God's machine, not your machine. Justin Murphy: Certainly not. And I wouldn't presume to suggest in any way that that was the case. What our problem is, though, is that because... *Prabhupāda: So that problem solved if you perform sacrifice. That is the verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna*-sambhavaḥ. And yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. Very simple formula. If we follow this formula, that first of all, if we want regular water supply... That we want. Not that "if we want." We must have regular water supply. So that is possible by performing yajña. Justin Murphy: Um hm, um hm. *Prabhupāda: Yajña means to satisfy the Supreme Lord. That is yajña. Yajñaḥ karma*-samudbhavaḥ. Karma means your activities. Whatever you are doing, that is karma. You are working as geologist? What is? Justin Murphy: Geographer. Prabhupāda: Geographer. And another man is working in the factory or somewhere else. Everyone is working. So by working the aim should be how to perform yajña. That is... That should the... Suppose you are geographer, and I am a religious preacher, and he is a cultivator, he is a factory man, he is a motorcar driver. So that is all right. But if we sit down together and perform yajña simply by glorifying the Lord, where is the loss in your part or my part or his part? Where is the loss? Suppose as a geographer, you sit down; as a religious preacher, I sit down; as a motorcar driver, he sits down; as a factory worker, he sits down and perform yajña. Yajña means we chant the holy name of the Lord. Where is the difficulty? Justin Murphy: I wish it were as simple as that for the majority of people. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Even the child can take part. Even the child, woman, educated, noneducated, rich man, poor man, worker*-everyone can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So why don't you accept this formula? Justin Murphy: How do you know that I haven't? Prabhupāda: There is no check. Justin Murphy: But how about the people living next door or the people...? Prabhupāda: No, they can form different groups. You can form your group. Suppose there is hundred gentlemen in this neighborhood. We can sit down. If he has no time, they can sit down with family members. Everyone has got family. Everyone has got his wife, children or somebody else, servant. Sit down for half an hour and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? Justin Murphy: No difficulty at all. But it doesn't happen, does it? Prabhupāda: We have to introduce. That is our movement. Justin Murphy: Sure, yes, I can see that. But why aren't people doing it? Why aren't more people? In Perth, in this city, why aren't more doing it? I'll tell you one reason. And it is because Austra... Prabhupāda: The people should be educated that "If you do not perform this yajña, you will suffer." Justin Murphy: But, of course, there are conflicting educations, aren't there? Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be. What is the wrong there, that, if we sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any loss of our factory or work? But if there is some gain, why not try it? *Justin Murphy: A delightful idea, a beautiful idea, and a very simple*-sounding idea. How about, however, the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, who are bound in this... Prabhupāda: No, what is the... No, Roman Catholics... We don't say that Roman Catholics cannot perform yajña. We say that you chant the holy name of God. So Roman Catholics they have God or not, no God? Justin Murphy: Well, they think they do a lot of that on a Sunday morning. Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, any religious system... Religious system means connection with God. Is it not? Justin Murphy: Yeah, well, that's what it's supposed to be. Prabhupāda: Without God, is there any religion? Any religion, is there any religion who will say, "No, we have no God." Is there any religion? Justin Murphy: No. Prabhupāda: So we are asking, "Chant the holy name of God." So if you are Roman Catholic... Justin Murphy: Any man's God. Prabhupāda: Any man's God. God is one. God cannot be two. But we are thinking... Justin Murphy: Roman Catholics don't agree with you on that, do they? Roman Catholics have their own God. Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Justin Murphy: And this is one of the problems. It's nowhere near as simple as, I am sure, as you suggest, and I wish it were. Prabhupāda: No, no. It is simple. It is simple. Justin Murphy: The Roman Catholics are a jealous people. Roman Catholics are jealous religious people. They refuse even still to accept, for example, that Anglicans pray in the same way as they do. They refuse to accept that Anglicans pray as well as they do. Prabhupāda: No, one thing is that may be Anglican, may be Roman Catholics, may be Christian, may be Hindu or Muslim or anyone. Whether they have God in their conception of religion or not. Do they have God or no God? Justin Murphy: Well they all have. They must have, to be a religion. Prabhupāda: So I am asking that "You chant the holy name of God. If you have God, you chant the holy name of that God." I don't say that "You chant the holy name of my God." You chant the holy name of your God. God is one. Just like water. Somebody says "water," somebody says "pāni," somebody says "jala," but the end is, the aim is, water. Similarly, God... I may say "Kṛṣṇa," you may say "Jehovah," the Muslims may say "Allah," or others may say something else, but the aim is God. Justin Murphy: Well, why aren't we better off then? Because obviously, therefore, going on what you've just said, there are a lot of people in Australia every day, perhaps certainly once every week, chanting the name of their God. Why then do we still have problems? Prabhupāda: No, problem... Justin Murphy: Are there not enough people chanting to their God or to the one God? Prabhupāda: So problems... Suppose if you are... Aborigines, they have God? They have their name of God? Justin Murphy: Yes, well, they have multiple gods, yes. Prabhupāda: So if they chant the holy name of God there is no loss. At least there is no loss. Justin Murphy: No, certainly, oh, well, we've established that, sure. Prabhupāda: So why not begin this? There is no loss. You are not losing anything. Suppose if you chant the holy name of God as a geographer. Your salary is not decreased. So there is no... Justin Murphy: Certainly not, no. But why is there...? If people are, in their own way, then, chanting to their God, why... *Prabhupāda: No, no... Ultimately, you require sufficient supply of water to grow your food, vegetables. Or even if you are animal*-eater, to maintain your animals you require sufficient water. And that is recommended, that yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. And the yajña is very simple: chanting the holy name of the Lord. So why not introduce, that every home, every factory, every community, every place, they should sit down at least for half an hour and chant the holy name of the Lord? Justin Murphy: Could I ask you very simply? You suggest this. If we all do this, will that, for example, remove the problems that we do, that our society, at any rate, at any guess, generates for ourself? We have more and more pollution. Depending on the way the wind blows, for example, we get at times choking pollution from the industrial complexes down to the south of this city. Are these problems going to be... Prabhupāda: No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?" Justin Murphy: To make money, very simply. Prabhupāda: Then what for, money? Money means you require the necessities of life. So... Justin Murphy: But that's not what the multinational corporations that enjoy using Australia's resources are going to say. All of the hills to the east of Perth are almost entirely made up of bauxite, from which of course, we get, not that, the stainless steel, but from which we get aluminium. Aluminium is a very... Bauxite is a very, very favored material now. The West Indies are rich in it, and a few other countries, but not many. Australia is now part of, as they call it, part of "the bauxite club." And Dr. Cairns(?), our deputy prime minister and treasurer, was some months ago talking with a number of people in the West Indies about fixing world prices for bauxite and eventually aluminium. America has Comalco and Alcoa, two very large international groups, have large interests in the bauxite in the hills around Perth. They are out to make money. They're in it to return money to their shareholders in America. *Prabhupāda: But therefore, there are two ways of living. One way of living is called material enjoyment, or sense enjoyment. This is one way of life. In Sanskrit it is called pravṛtti*-mārga, "How to enjoy more, more, more, more, more." This is called pravṛtti-mārga. That is going on. The whole... At the present moment the whole civilization, throughout the whole world-everyone is trying to get more money. More money means more sense enjoyment. More money means more sense enjoyment. This is called pravṛtti-mārga. Justin Murphy: Well, maybe less enjoyment but more possessions. Prabhupāda: No, enjoyment in this way of life more sense enjoyment, you will never be able to enjoy or happiness. That is not possible. That is the nature's way. (Aside:) You can close the door. If you simply want to enjoy, you can enjoy. But you will create more miseries. So this is one way of life, that you enjoy your senses and create more miseries. This is one way of life. And if you want to decrease your miseries, then there is another life, which is called simple life. Simple life means you produce your food and you produce your cloth so you dress yourself nicely, you eat, yourself, nicely, keep yourself fit and glorify the Lord. This is one way of life. And the other way of life, that "We don't care for the Lord. Let us enjoy the senses to the topmost capacity and be happy..." So this way of life will never make you happy. You will simply go on struggling. This is one way of life. Another way of life, that the human life is meant for God realization... Justin Murphy: Hm, no. Prabhupāda: So if a human being does not become inquisitive to understand what he is, in which way his progress should me made, then he remains a dog. The dog cannot do it. And we have got the capacity. If we neglect this facility and remain like a dog, simply engaged in eating, sleeping, sex, and defense, then we remain dog. Then again we become dog. The opportunity was given to us to understand the problems of life, how to solve. If you don't take this opportunity, facility, if you simply remain like dog, then we are next life... That also they do not understand, that there is next life. Do you believe in the next life? You, a person, do you believe in a next life? Justin Murphy: No, I don't. Prabhupāda: You do not. Justin Murphy: No. Prabhupāda: Just see. Now... Justin Murphy: So therefore I'm bad material. Prabhupāda: [break] ...believe it. Justin Murphy: But I will become an old man anyway in the course of my life. Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore there is future life. If you say, "I don't believe in it,"... Justin Murphy: Are you talking about reincarnation, life after death? Prabhupāda: Yes. Reincarnation, you are already reincarnated. Where is your that childhood body? Where is that body? Justin Murphy: Here it is. It's grown. Prabhupāda: No. No, it is changed. Justin Murphy: It's grown, it's changed, it's evolved, I have evolved. Just like evolution, I have evolved to the situations... Prabhupāda: Anyway... Just try to understand. Anyway, that, your boy's body or childhood body is no longer. Either you say changed or grown, whatever you say, it doesn't matter. Justin Murphy: But they're the same bones, it's the same skin. Prabhupāda: But you are the same man. That's a fact. You understand that you were a child or you were a boy, youthful boy, jumping. You remember that body, but that body is not existing. That's a fact. Justin Murphy: I can't agree. Prabhupāda: And why not? Suppose somebody had seen your childhood body, and for many years he has not seen you, and he all of a sudden comes. Suppose your father's friend. So father introduces. He says, "Oh, you are the same?" He will be surprised because he saw you in a childhood body. Justin Murphy: But I'm less interested in what... Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think that you have changed your body. The other man says, "Oh, you have grown up?" Or... Generally they take it as grown up. But the actual position is the body has changed. Justin Murphy: But they're the same bones. It's the same skin. My face looks just about the same. Prabhupāda: Not it is same. Medically, it is not the same. Justin Murphy: The functions are different, but it's the same heart that's beating, the same veins... Prabhupāda: No, no, no, it is not the same body. Just like in your childhood, when you were a boy, you had no sex impulse. Now you have got sex impulse. The body of a child, the body of a boy, they cannot understand sex life because the body is different. And now, because you have got different body, you can feel what is sex life. So it is imperceptibly changing. Therefore we think that it is growing. But it is changing. It is changing swiftly. Just like in the cinema spool. The picture is changing, but because it is changing so swiftly, you are seeing that one man is moving. That is the fact. There are hundreds and thousands of pictures passed on. When you see that "This man is taking the stick and bringing this way," this means there are many pictures. So similarly, it is like a spool. Your body is changing every moment. That is medical science. Justin Murphy: Absolutely. Yes. At every moment. Prabhupāda: So changing. So you are changing your body. That's a fact. But because you are seeing all in one spool, you are thinking, "It is growing; *it is moving." That's all. But it is changing. This is the science. So body is changing. And you remember that you had such*-and-such body. Therefore you are different from the body. This is the science. So unless we understand that "I am not this body. I am different from the body. I am changing bodies. Therefore I will have to change this body and accept another body..." This is the science, beginning of scientific knowledge. Without understanding this fact his advancement of knowledge is simply for eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. There is no advancement. According to Vedic literature, he remains animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Paramahaṁsa: English? Prabhupāda: English and..., yes. Paramahaṁsa: Sanskrit first? Prabhupāda: Uh huh. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of the modern civilization. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death, you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know, "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is intelligence. That is civilization. Justin Murphy: Do you mean that the, that that, then, will allow me, if I come to that realization, that that will allow me to then continue to improve my mind, continue to study, to think, to gain knowledge... Prabhupāda: As far... Yes. *Justin Murphy: ...beyond say the normal sixty*-five or seventy years that I might live in what I imagine to be this body? Prabhupāda: The knowledge should be acquired from the beginning of life, from childhood. But if by circumstances I could not get this knowledge from childhood, then we should begin immediately. Because unless we get this knowledge, our life remains imperfect. We remain animal. The animal does not know this. And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem. Unfortunately, the modern education is... Leaders, they have no education, and they are thinking just like animal that "I am this body." Therefore you are thinking you are Australian, I am thinking I am Indian, he is thinking American, he..., only on this bodily concept of life. But we are not this body. We are different from this body. So unless we understand this point, our aim of life, our standard of civilization, is incorrect. Justin Murphy: I suppose it's very easy to understand and to credit that so many people will be thinking maybe this way because that's part of the basis of being selfish, and, after all, a lot of people, particularly, I would imagine, a lot of Australians, are basically selfish. They are interested far more in what they can get and do for themselves not necessarily by working hard, by striving or by reading or by thinking or by studying. They, they... The old saying... Prabhupāda: The human life is meant for acquiring knowledge, real knowledge. Justin Murphy: But so many people don't see it that way. *Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first*-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; *it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first*-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; *there are second*-class men; *there are third*-class men; *there are fourth*-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment. Paramahaṁsa: Sober. Prabhupāda: Sober, gentle. He understands immediately. Because... Justin Murphy: But would you... Again... This thing, the attainment of this first class, which, if I understand you correctly, you're saying is very, very necessary for... Prabhupāda: All are necessary. Justin Murphy: ...for the removal... Yes, sure. But you're saying that we don't have the first class of man. Prabhupāda: So you create. Justin Murphy: But... But... Prabhupāda: By education you create. *Justin Murphy: Fine. But how... O.K. How about, then the, some of the ancient and maybe even now the latter*-day philosophers... Prabhupāda: No, just see... Justin Murphy: ...the men of sobriety and gentleness, the Bertrand Russells for example. Prabhupāda: They have to be trained. Just like you have been trained up as geographer; *similarly, a certain man can be trained up as first*-class man by education. Justin Murphy: But trained by others or trained by themselves? Prabhupāda: No, there must be institution. Justin Murphy: But surely training by oneself. But training by oneself, such as for example an Albert Einstein or a Bertrand Russell... Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no, no. By teacher. You have become geographer not by yourself. *Justin Murphy: Oh, yes, but we also have many... I'm nowhere near what you're saying is a first*-class. I'm talking about some of our latter-day philosophers, and Bertrand Russell is a person, for example, who, for gentleness, sobriety, and thought, whom I admire very much. And he has attained that himself. He hasn't been... He was certainly, as we all must be, surely, trained to begin with. But then it's a process of individual thought. *Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution*-this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer-as there are different departments. Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first*-class men. That is required. Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities. *Prabhupāda: So therefore it is chaotic, no first*-class men, all third class, fourth class. *Justin Murphy: What are the specifications for your first*-class man? Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. Satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā. Paramahaṁsa: Satyam? *Prabhupāda: Śamo damas titikṣā, brahma*-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Eighteenth Chapter. Paramahaṁsa: Satyam or satya? *Prabhupāda: Satya. S*-a-t-y-a. (devotee looking for verse) You find out jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. Jñānam, find out jñānam. J-n-a-n, jñānam. Paramahaṁsa: Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam, 18.42. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: *Prabhupāda: This is first*-class man. *Justin Murphy: Who decides whether a man, then, is..., fits into those criteria and becomes a first*-class man? Who decides? Who is to say whether a man is first class or not? Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He should be first of all qualified like this. What is that? *Paramahaṁsa: Peacefulness, self*-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness. Justin Murphy: But once a man has strived for those qualities, how does he know when he's attained them? And... Prabhupāda: No, you... Śamaḥ, śamaḥ. The first word is śamaḥ?Śamaḥ means equilibrium of the mind. One should be trained up in such a way that he is not disturbed in his mind in any circumstance. That is called śamaḥ. And damaḥ, damaḥ means controlling the senses. Naturally I find one beautiful woman I want to talk with him (her), and he (she) is other's wife. But I should: "No, why should I talk with other's wife?" This is damaḥ, controlling the senses. So śamaḥ means keeping the mind always equipoised, and damaḥ, the controlling the mind. And suppose if... I have to eat something to live. So God has given me so many nice foodstuff: food grain, fruits, milk. Why should I kill an animal unnecessarily, for the taste of my tongue? Justin Murphy: Selfishness. *Prabhupāda: But I want to live. There are... India, eighty percent people, they are vegetarian. They are living very nicely. They are eating sufficient food grain and fruits and milk and milk product. God has given us so many. So why should we maintain slaughterhouse, killing other animals? So a first*-class man will not do that. First-class man will think that "I want to eat something to keep myself fit. If by natural products I can keep myself fit, why shall I kill another animal?" And every religion teaches that. Now take in your Christian religion. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouse. So this is the condition of the society. How you can become happy? You are violating the rules and regulation of religion and God. You cannot become... Nature will disturb in so many ways. That is nature's business. Justin Murphy: But so many of us, of course, are used to it. We like it. *Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking about you particularly, but general way, general way. So this is first*-class man. Śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣā. Now, suppose I was not a first-class man; *I was a fourth*-class man. Now I want to become a first-class man. So I was eating meat. Just these boys, European, American boys, they were eating everything. Now they have given up. On my word or to associate with me, they have given up meat-eating, illicit sex, meat-eating. So in the beginning it may be disturbing because "I am habituated to all these things, and by my spiritual master order not to do this..." So it may be disturbing. But that is called titikṣā, tolerance: "No, I have to do it. If I want to make progress to become first-class man, this is order, so I must do it even..." The tolerance. Even it is disturbing... In the beginning. It is not disturbing. In the beginning, because I habituated to do something... Just like a thief. If you ask him to become honest, it will be disturbing for him because he is habituated to steal. Justin Murphy: Do you think you'll make it? Paramahaṁsa: I'm making progress. Prabhupāda: They are young men. They are all within thirty years. *Justin Murphy: And your aim, all of you, is to become first*-class men? Devotee: Yes. *Justin Murphy: Does it matter how long it might take you? Can you become first*-class men soon, within five years? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, sufficient, sufficient. We can make in one year. Justin Murphy: Really. I wish you all well. Well, I hope I won't give you offense if I look at my watch and say that... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a very important matter. If you do not spare time, that is your business, but... (laughs) Justin Murphy: I'm afraid my life is one of these selfish lives. It's a life that's dominated by... *Prabhupāda: No, it is natural, just natural. Just like why first*-class men required in society? Just like in your body there is first-class part, second-class part, third-class part, and fourth-class part. Just like your head is the first-class part of your body. If your head is cut off, then everything is finished. Justin Murphy: True. *Prabhupāda: Similarly, if in the society, if we don't create first*-class men, that society is dead. That society is dead. So at the present moment there is no first-class men according to this word. Therefore there is chaotic condition, problems, and so on, so on, so on. So unless you create at least a few percentage of the people first-class men according to this standard, there cannot be any progress. This is my last word to you. Justin Murphy: Thank you. I wish you all well, and maybe I should think along those lines myself. It's been most interesting talking to you. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is necessary to create a class of men first class, ideal. And if you all create fourth*-class men, then there cannot be peace. It is not possible. Justin Murphy: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Justin Murphy: Excellent talking to you. Thank you very much and I wish you well in Melbourne and then in Hawaii? Prabhupāda: Yes. Fiji and Hawaii. You can keep his address. He may talk with you. Śrutakīrti: Here is a sweet we have made from milk product. Justin Murphy: Thank you. Good night. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [break] *Paramahaṁsa: He said that... When we were walking to the car, he said... I was talking to him a little bit about it, and I gave him some magazines to read. He said it is very convincing argument about the, why the problems are all there because of the bodily concept of life. So he said, "It is a very convincing point of view and very thought*-provoking." So I think he listened very well. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if this kind of man will understand-they are in position*-that will be a great... He is better than so many clergies. Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Yes. I invited someone for Friday. I can't guarantee that he'll come. But anyhow, his name is... He's from the local government Alcohol and Drug Authority. And they are... They have hospitals to treat people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He is a social worker who has worked in a mental hospital, and he wants to bring a psychologist and a psychiatric nurse. And I hope he comes because he sounded intelligent like that also. These people are looking... They have problems on their hands, and they don't know what to do... *Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you are given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra*-vimūḍhātmā [Bg. 3.27]. They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this, I am..." Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: Yes. He is pulled by the ear by the nature, "You rascal, you have associated with this quality. You do this. You must accept this body." That he does not know. "Now you have acted like dog, you accept this body of a dog." This is nature's creation. You cannot say, "No, no, no, I don't want this body." No, you must. "You acted like dog, you take this body of a dog." That he does not know. He is thinking, "I am all in all; I am independent." That is foolishness. The whole world, big, big scientists and philosophers, all in ignorance, and they are being pulled by the ear by nature. That they do not know. What is the purport I have given? Paramahaṁsa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead,..." (end) Room Conversation with Gaëeça däsa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: Any city which has river and sunshine is considered to be first class. Mother: You don't feel the cold in the nighttime here? Prabhupāda: I am going on. Gaṇeśa: She asked if you feel the cold in the nighttime. Prabhupāda: Oh, a little, not very much. Yes. Sister: Is this your first visit to Perth? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sister: It is. That's really good, good experience. Gaṇeśa: My sister is learning at one institute of technology just like the university. She is doing some course in, course in social work... [break] She works at one hospital. Also where else? One psychiatric nursing hospital. She is learning how to perform welfare activities for the benefit of others. Prabhupāda: And what for your benefit? Sister: Pardon? Prabhupāda: What you are doing for your benefit? Sister: For my benefit? It develops me because it helps me to learn to give to others rather than, you know, for myself. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Everyone is doing for others, but what he is doing for himself? Sister: Well, I feel it has developed me as a person. You know? I can look more into myself by helping others. Prabhupāda: So what is the way of helping? Sister: Well, in the society it's full of problems and people are just sort of lost, and I can't solve their problems, but I can help them to cope with them more adequately. That's what I hope to be able to do when I'm qualified. Prabhupāda: But do you know what is the problem? Sister: The problems? No. That's why they come to you, really. You know? They're expecting an answer. You can't really give them one, but... Prabhupāda: The real problem is birth, death, old age, and disease. So we are dealing with that problem. Now... Does anybody like to die? Sister: No, I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Yes. But the death is there. Sister: Yeah, death is there. It's inevitable. Mother: It's inevitable, isn't it? Prabhupāda: Inevitable, but you can avoid it. That we are giving. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that you can avoid this problem: birth, death, old age, and disease. That is our propaganda. Mother: But you'll always have disease and you'll always have old age. Prabhupāda: Yes, but just like you are diseased, so all the problems are there. But when you become cured of the disease, then there is no more problem. Similarly, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means training people how to go back to home, back to Godhead. And as soon as he is educated to go back to home, back to Godhead, then all problems solved. Find out this verse, Gaṇeśa: Prabhupāda: This is the solution of the real problem, that after... If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body, you don't accept another material body. And in the material existence the problems are not solved because you have to, after death, you have to accept another material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, the sufferings are there, at least these four sufferings: birth, death, old age, and disease. So it continues. If you take the body of a human being, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. If you take the body of a heavenly demigod, the birth, death, old age, and disease are there. Or if you take the body of a dog, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. So any kind of birth, material body, you have to accept these four problems. And there are many other problems. But if you stop accepting a material body, then these things are finished. So we are training people, simply janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. What is the purport? *Gaṇeśa: "Purport. The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the sixth verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve-merging into the impersonal brahmajyoti of the Lord*-is only partial, and there is the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Prabhupāda: So if you distribute this knowledge, that will be real social work. And if you give some help, temporary, but he remains subjected to the rules of birth, death, and old age, that is temporary. Sister: If you're devoted enough can you gain release from birth, death, and old age completely in one life? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is explained here. Sister: Yeah, within one material life? You necessarily don't have to return? Prabhupāda: No. Sister: It's only if you haven't got rid of these impurities that you have to return, take on another body? Prabhupāda: Just if you do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to. Here it is said, "One who understands Me definitely, he does not come." So try to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you become free from birth and death and old age. Mother: And what about before they joined Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: He was subjected to birth and death and old age, that's all. Mother: And after they join it...? Prabhupāda: And if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become free. Sister: But your body still suffers death, old age. Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer. Either this body, Australian body or American body or dog's body or cat's body or tree's body, any body, material world, you will have to suffer. First of all, this transfer of body, that is also suffering. In the material world it is only suffering, but because people are in ignorance, they take suffering as enjoyment. Mother: Then why there is so much human suffering? Prabhupāda: Because he has accepted this material body. Mother: And this is why there's so much human suffering. Prabhupāda: Yes, on account of accepting a material body. Therefore every one of us should try how to avoid this process of accepting a material body. That should be our only endeavor, not to make a temporary solution. That is not very good solution. Mother: But the world will never all become Kṛṣṇa conscious, will they? There will always be different scriptures. Prabhupāda: What different there may be? Gaṇeśa: Different scriptures. Śrutakīrti: She said everyone won't all become Kṛṣṇa conscious in the world. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So if you are serious to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you hear Kṛṣṇa, what does He say. Then you do that. Sister: What about for a child, a newly born baby. Are they born into a material body because of their parents' bad doings? Prabhupāda: No, he has taken that particular body in terms of his past activities. One is born as a human child; one is born as a dog, cat; one is born as something else. So according, the body is offered by material nature according to his work. That we were discussing, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. Material nature, by the order... God is within you. God is sitting there. He knows what you want. So God orders material nature, "Give him such and such body. He wants to enjoy like this." So material nature... Just he gives up this body, he is under the control of the material nature. The material nature sends him to such a father and the father gives the semina in the mother's womb, and mother gives him the body. Mother: I believe that there's God in everybody, but why are some people so evil? Prabhupāda: Because he does not care for the words of God. Mother: But as I say, God is within all of us. *Prabhupāda: Yes. God is there. God says that "You don't do like that." Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām... [Bg. 18.66]. "You just surrender to Me." But he will not do that. Mother: And yet people can be so evil. Prabhupāda: Therefore God gives him chance, "All right, you enjoy as you like, and make your life risky. What can I do?" Mother: But people know when they're doing evil, don't they? Prabhupāda: Just like you have got children. You say, according to your knowledge, every children, "My dear children, you do." But it is not necessarily that they will abide by your order. Similarly, God gives the instruction that "You give up all this. You simply surrender to Me. I shall take charge you." But he does not do that. He wants to live independently. Therefore he is suffering. Mother: But there's so much evil in the world. Prabhupāda: Avil? Gaṇeśa: Evil. Mother: Evil. Prabhupāda: Yes, this is evil. You don't try to carry out the orders of God, this is evil. Mother: But what I'm trying to say is there's more evil in the world than goodness. Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is evil, why you are in this material world? You have accepted evil. Therefore you are in this material world. And if you accept God, the good, then you are in the spiritual world. You don't accept God; you want evil. Therefore you are in the material world. Just like in the jail, prison house, who are they? They are all criminals. Similarly, every one of us who are within this material world, they are all criminals because they have disobeyed the order of God. In different status only, but they are all criminals. Because every one of them is subjected to the rules of nature: birth, death, old age, and disease. So your child is very intelligent. He has taken to this. Now you can do also the same thing, both mother and daughter. Mother: And his wife. Gaṇeśa: My wife. Prabhupāda: Where is your wife? *Gaṇeśa: Melbourne. Śubhalakṣmī*-devī. Prabhupāda: Oh, she is also nice. Gaṇeśa: Big BBT distributor. Prabhupāda: Oh, very... So both the husband, wife, and child is happy. Now the mother and sister should be happy. Mother: (laughs) I'm happy if my children are happy. Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will be more happy. (laughter) You will have to take because son inherits the quality of mother. So you have got the quality. You are not exhibiting now. So by the influence of your son, you will take to it. Sister: Has everyone the potential to accept Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Everyone, yes, oh, yes, everyone. Sister: But what about people that are never..., that are always kept in ignorance. There's a lot of people... Prabhupāda: He does not take. He does not take willingly. Sister: That's what I mean, yeah. There's a lot of people that just don't even know He exists. *Prabhupāda: But if he takes, he has the potentiality. If you agree... Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. If you agree to Kṛṣṇa's proposal, then you will, that potentiality is manifested. Sister: But what about people that are never exposed to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? *Prabhupāda: Then he will suffer. He will constantly change his body one after another, sometimes good body, sometimes bad body, and he will suffer. So as soon as you accept a material body, you will suffer. It may be good body or bad body. It doesn't matter. Suffering is there. When a dog is taking birth, he has to take the suffering within the womb of his mother, and when a human man, human body is coming out, he has also to take the... It is not joke to remain ten months within the packed*-up abdomen of the mother. Is it very pleasant, do you think? If you are kept in that way now, you will die within three seconds. In that condition you have to live ten months. So how much suffering it was! Mother: Suffering for whom? Prabhupāda: Suffering for the man who is taking birth. Sometimes now they are killing. The mother is killing. The time is coming so bad that mother is killing child. Sister: What about like euthanasia, say. Isn't that nonacceptance of a material body? If by some, for some reason the child isn't allowed to be born? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said here, that if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body-this is material body, you have to give up-so you are not coming again in the womb of another material mother. You are transferred to the spiritual world by nature's law. They do not know the subtle laws which is going on underneath. They are simply concerned superficially. Because they have no knowledge of the spirit soul*-they think the body is everything-so therefore knowledge is imperfect. Body is only the covering. Real person is the spirit soul. So the modern education has no knowledge of this. Mother: But most people are materialistically minded, aren't they? There's very few that aren't. Gaṇeśa: Most people are materialistically minded. Not many people are spiritually inclined. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the defect of the modern civilization. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: And therefore they are suffering. Sister: How can you get back to Godhead... Prabhupāda: That is stated here. You try to understand Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. Sister: Yeah, how can you follow it if you've never been exposed to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: The book is there. Sister: Yeah, but people who've never seen the book, never met Kṛṣṇa conscious. Prabhupāda: So book is available. Why don't you see it? Sister: Yeah, I can see it, (laughter) but there's a lot of people all over the world who have not. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are going door to door canvassing, "Take this book." Mother: You're not doing it, your boys. Prabhupāda: Our business is to sell this book so that people may take advantage of it. Mother: And that's the only way. Prabhupāda: That is our movement. We have got fifty books like that, four hundred pages each. This is one thousand pages. We are giving enough knowledge. Mother: For people to become interested. Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother: But nobody off the street would go into the temple, would they? *Prabhupāda: Any way, if he comes in contact with us, he is gainer. We are giving opportunity, canvassing, "Come in contact with us." Just now, before you, one big man came. So I talked about first*-class men, and he admitted. So he said at the last moment, "Now let me go and engage myself in fourth-class activities." So everyone is engaged in fourth-class activities, and we are trying to make first-class men. That is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Mother: You've got a hard job ahead of you, then. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, very hard job. But everyone can become first class if he likes. Mother: If they want to. *Sister: This is similar to many views of psychologists who believe in self*-actualization. Prabhupāda: Belief is different thing and fact is one thing. *Sister: Philosophi..., or, say, hypothesize that you can reach self*-actualization. Prabhupāda: Belief is no good. I believe. You may believe something wrong. That is not... You must know the fact. That is wanted. Mother: But a person knows if they're doing wrong always. Prabhupāda: If you are educated in a wrong way, then you will do wrong. Mother: But I mean a person knows when they're doing wrong. They know when they're doing evil. Prabhupāda: No, they cannot understand. They are sometimes doing wrong thing as right thing. So many wrong things they are doing. One has to suffer. Nature will not excuse. (Pause) Gaṇeśa: You have some more questions to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda? I think they have finished, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam. Gaṇeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So try to bring your mother and sister to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is your duty also. And Kṛṣṇa will help. Because they are in relationship with you, Kṛṣṇa will help them, your family. Kṛṣṇa will think of your family, yes. Just like a soldier fighting, the government takes cares of his family. That is special prerogative. If he dies in the fighting, the government gives pension to the family members. So you are fortunate in that way because your son is fighting with māyā. So you take advantage of it. You read the books. You try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And your own son is there. You can take instruction from him. So take advantage. Don't lose this opportunity. Mother: What do you think about Hebrew religion? Prabhupāda: Well, there cannot be Hebrew religion, Christian religion, Hindu... Religion is one. Religion means God's rules. So God is one. So if you are this or that, you can manufacture so many ways, but God's ruling is one, that "You surrender to Me." That's all. Mother: So we all believe in the one God. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one. God cannot be two. Then He is not God. There cannot be two Gods. God is one. Otherwise how..., what is the meaning of God? Mother: That's right. Prabhupāda: So, find out this, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: God is the Supreme Truth. So Supreme Truth cannot be Hebrew truth, Christian truth, Hindu truth. Truth is truth. Just like gold. Because gold is found in America, nobody says, "It is American gold." It is gold. So similarly, God is one. He is for Hebrew, He is for Hindu, He is for Muslim, He is for everyone. Simply we have to know what is God. So if you try to understand through Hebrew religion, that's all right. But if you come to know what is God, that is all right. Otherwise useless. If you cannot understand what is God, then Hebrew, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, these different names, they are useless. And if you understand God, then whatever method it is, it is all good. Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: So first of all, whether the Hebrews, they do understand what is God? That is the point. You are asking about the Hebrews, so do you think that through the Hebrew method one can understand God? Mother: I think one can understand God regardless of what religion you are. Prabhupāda: Understand, but suppose... Are you Hebrew? Mother: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the nature of God? Can you explain? Mother: No, I can't explain. Prabhupāda: Then what do you know about God? You do not know what is God. Mother: I believe in God. Prabhupāda: Believing, that is one thing. Believe in father. Everyone has got father. But if you do not know who is your father, what does he do, then that is not perfect knowledge. It is a fact: without father, nobody is born. So even your child has not seen who is her father, but it is a fact that there is a father. But she or he must know who is he, what is his nature, what does he do. And that is perfect knowledge. Simply to know "I have got a father" is not perfect knowledge. I must know who is that father, what does he do, where does he live. That is perfect knowledge. Otherwise it is assumed that every man has got a father. Without father, how you can come into existence? That's a fact. But if he does not know who is actually his father, that is imperfect knowledge. What do you think, the nature of God? *Sister: I think He's just something all*-knowing, you know... Prabhupāda: Old? *Gaṇeśa: All*-knowing. All-knowledgeable. *Prabhupāda: All*-knowledgeable. Sister: Yes, my conception of... *Prabhupāda: Then all*-knowledgeable means you must know, all-knowledgeable. You just explain what is the nature of God. Śrutakīrti: She's saying God knows everything, that is her conception. Prabhupāda: Oh. God knows everything, but everything means then, if you, we accept this formula, then He knows past, present, and future. Sister: No, that's right. No past, present, or future. No, I don't think that. Just eternal. *Prabhupāda: No, no. God knows everything means He knows past, present, and future. That is all*-knowing. So if He knows past, present, and future, then you should accept His instruction. That should be the next. So what is His instruction? His instruction is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Paramahaṁsa: *Prabhupāda: Now, man*-manāḥ, you have to think of God. But if you do not know who is God, then how you will think of Him? If I say that "You always think of me," now you are seeing me, you can think of me. But if you have no knowledge about me, who is, then how you can think of me? Sister: It's only by what you are told about God, and you have to develop your own conception until you actually meet Him. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we are saying that here is God, Kṛṣṇa. They are accepting, and they are thinking of God, and they are making progress. Sister: But have they met God? Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is God. Sister: They can believe in Him, but have they met Him? Prabhupāda: So belief, that is being effective. It is not blind belief. They are seeing the picture of Kṛṣṇa, and they are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and they are making progress. Sister: But that would be the same if I could see a picture of you or I could see a... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. My self and my picture, is there any difference? Sister: Yes. *Prabhupāda: If you see my picture, you see me. This is material picture. But God is omnipotent. God's picture is also God. That is God's potency. Otherwise we are worshiping Deity. People may think: "This is the form of Kṛṣṇa." The form of Kṛṣṇa, the name of Kṛṣṇa, the quality of Kṛṣṇa*-they are all Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute. In the material world there is difference. Otherwise, why they are engaged in chanting, "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare..." Have they become mad? Because Kṛṣṇa person and Kṛṣṇa's name, the same thing. That is Absolute. So here it is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. So if you chant Kṛṣṇa's name, that means you are directly associating with Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are becoming purified. Just like if you associate with fire, you will remain always warm. Is it not? If you remain near the fireplace, you remain always warm. Similarly, if you chant Kṛṣṇa-Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa, not different-then you will remain always spiritual. Sister: But you don't need to see the picture... With His omnipotence, you don't need to have the picture. *Prabhupāda: No, because you, without seeing Him, you do not develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You require to see Him. So He has appeared before you so that you can see Him. That is His mercy, so that you see Him and you think of Him. Man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. You see Him and think of Him. That is the meaning of picture. You cannot say, "I have not seen God." Here is God. You see God's picture here in the temple. In the śāstra description is there. Just like in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣam: [Bs. 5.30] "Kṛṣṇa is playing on His flute." That is the information in the Vedas. Here He is playing on flute. Veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāya... "His eyes are like lotus petal." You see? The description in the Vedas and the picture the same. It is not imagination. It is in the Veda. Vedas will give you information. Then surabhīr abhipālayantam [Bs. 5.29]. There are cows. Kṛṣṇa is very much fond of cows. So what is stated in the Vedas about Kṛṣṇa, that is depicted. Mother: How old is Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: He is never old. That is material question. He is the oldest person. He is the origin of everything. Mother: It is. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore He is the oldest. That is stated in the Brahma... Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta*-rūpam [Bs. 5.33], ananta-rūpam, ādyam, the origin, nava-yauvanam, but He is always young man. He is the oldest person. He is the original father, from whom we are all born, but He is always young. Nava-yauvanam. Nava, nava means newly youthful life. It is not that because Kṛṣṇa is the oldest person, therefore He has become very old. No. That is material conception. (whispering between mother and daughter) (pause) Gaṇeśa: I think I will leave now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end) Discussion -- May 15, 1975, Perth *Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water. Devotee (1): No. Prabhupāda: Nobody is independent. And still, everyone is thinking independent, "I can do anything I like." Yesterday morning we were talking. You are independent. That is, means, misuse of independence. Just like in a state every citizen is independent but dependent on the state laws. If he forgets that, that "I am not dependent on the state laws," then he is foolish. Similarly, if one does not know that "The nature's law is the God's law, state laws; I cannot violate it," (sic:) then he is sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. One man is dying. A dhīra knows that he is changing his body; he is not dying. He will get another body. Dhīra, sober. And one who is not sober, he says, "No, life is finished." Or he can imagine he is going to heaven or hell. But a dhīra knows what is going to happen to him. If he was in the material modes of nature, goodness, then he is going to higher planetary system. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. From śāstra we can understand. If he is in passion, then he will stay in this material world. Amogha: He seemed to understand a lot. I don't know if he could understand completely, but... Prabhupāda: No... *Paramahaṁsa: As he walked out the door he said, "Now I have to go back and lead my fourth*-class life." (laughter) Amogha: Yes, he said that. *Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then he has understood. Yes, it is all fourth*-class men. He is considered a first-class man in the society. We say to him that "You are a fourth-class man." On what strength we can say like that? And he has to admit. That is our philosophy. Any first-class man, so-called first-class man, we can also say that "You are a fourth-class man," and he will agree. And if he admits, then he becomes first-class man. Then he can make progress. "I am living, a fourth-class man. I must be a first-class man." That is knowledge. So he was asking you, "Are you living first-class now?" Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: What was his question? Paramahaṁsa: In the room? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Paramahaṁsa: Yes, he said, "Are you all becoming first*-class men? You want to become first-class men?" Before he left he said it was very nice meeting... And he looked and he said, "It's nice meeting you all." *Prabhupāda: So we are trying to make some first*-class men. That's all. This is our aim. Even if he is fourth-class man, it doesn't matter. If he takes up the training, he becomes first class. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, even if he is not liberated, he goes in higher planetary system amongst the demigods. Then there he gets more advanced. He goes to Brahmā. If he is not directly transferred to the spiritual world, then he gets these facilities. And with Brahmā, at the end of this creation, annihilation, they go to the spiritual world. *Devotee (1): Just by becoming first*-class men. Prabhupāda: That is described. Śamo damas titikṣā, that... You were not here, hearing? That is first class. *Devotee (1): So just by becoming first*-class men you can go to the heavenly planets? *Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is meant for a first*-class man. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. Ūrdhvam means higher planetary system. Devotee (1): Are we not training all classes of men? In Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty? Devotee (1): But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary. *Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first*-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years. Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRM. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: And he is in a good position materially. Devotee (1): You spoke to three of those men in Melbourne last time. Prabhupāda: Huh? Amogha: Those scientists who came to see you last year in Melbourne were also from that organization. Devotee (1): The same place. Prabhupāda: Oh. Amogha: There were three men and you made them eat the gulabjammon. Prabhupāda: Ah, ah. He was there? Amogha: No, no. But they were from the same organization, the Melbourne branch. Prabhupāda: Oh. The same scientists came. Amogha: Yes. They were from the same... Prabhupāda: Oh, he remembers. Then that man remembers, I gave him gulabjammon. Amogha: No, not this man. Prabhupāda: That other man. *Amogha: Oh, yes. He sure did. That's a all*-over Australia organization. Prabhupāda: Good organization. Devotee (1): They are inquisitive because they come to see you. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you did not invite him? Amogha: Yes, but he would not come unless he was interested. *Prabhupāda: In the modern society there is no idea of first*-class man, what is first-class man. They take it, a minister is first-class man. A first-class man is by these qualities: śamo damas titikṣā. It is not by the fat salary. By the first-class qualities. Amogha: Some people, like this man, they notice that qualities are degrading and natural resources are degrading, so many problems are coming. But they don't know what to do. They're simply reporting that "There we go down." *Prabhupāda: They cannot counteract. The counteraction is here in our society. They should accept it. Then it will be all right. So become first*-class man. Everyone will hear you. And you can face any so-called first-class man and talk with him straightforward that "You are fourth class." (laughter) (devotees offer obeisances) (end) Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: This man is unemployed, and if we engaged him for plowing, will he do that? Paramahaṁsa: I don't think so. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Just see. Amogha: That's too hard, that's work. "We don't want to work like that, we just want some easy job." Prabhupāda: Then you suffer. Śrutakīrti: That would mean they had to leave the city. They don't want to leave the city. Prabhupāda: Then go to hell. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, we received news yesterday that one man in northern New South Wales is willing to sell us a farm, a great big farm out there in the southern tropics. Would this be a good place for engaging boys like the Indian, the Indian boy that came yesterday? Prabhupāda: Yes. Our next program is to organize farming. Let anyone come. We shall give him free food and employment: "Come on." Not that "I want to work as a clerk in the city." You produce your own food. I give you ingredients. I give you land. And work for five, six hours, and take your food and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Anybody who comes to the farm has to agree to follow the four regulative principles? These people? Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise you are not coming. Our main business is to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. Where you have left my that overcoat? Śrutakīrti: That is in London. (pause) *Prabhupāda: [break] How they will serve? The proposal...[break] that how... [break] ...they have disco... [break] They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so*-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping? Amogha: By our technological inventions we can make a heater that makes the coldness... Prabhupāda: But the heater is not curing the suffering. Amogha: But it makes us warm. Prabhupāda: But a heater, how many men will get heater? Amogha: Well, we can make them cheaply so that practically everyone... Prabhupāda: You can, but you do not, neither you can. Amogha: But in this country everyone, all these houses have heaters. Prabhupāda: In the... Why do you take in this country? Why not other country? Amogha: Well, so many countries. Prabhupāda: Where? That is simply bluff. You cannot do it. Cannot do it. Suffering must be there. Paramahaṁsa: Well, we accept the suffering is there, but we will still try to reduce it. That's all. Prabhupāda: Reduce... Paramahaṁsa: By inventing so many things. Prabhupāda: That is another bluffing. You have already invented so many things. Where is the reduction of suffering? Amogha: Well, there are less diseases, we are finding so many cures now that... Prabhupāda: I don't find less diseases. You are increasing hospitals. Śrutakīrti: Well, now we're taking care of the diseased people. Before, no one ever took care. Paramahaṁsa: Like in India, for example. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Even if you take care, what is the result? You have to increase hospitals. Paramahaṁsa: Well, that's cause the population is increasing. Prabhupāda: That is not the fact. Amogha: Just like in Australia. Prabhupāda: No, therefore your proposal is failure. You increase your, what is called, amenities? Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: The population increases. The proportion remains the same. Śrutakīrti: But we're taking care of them. Amogha: At least we're helping them. Prabhupāda: No, you are taking care of them, but the population increasing, therefore you cannot take care of every one of them. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes, because we increase our hospitals therefore we can... Prabhupāda: Ah, you are increasing and population increasing, that's all. Paramahaṁsa: And then we keep increasing according to the population. Prabhupāda: Then go on struggling. That is struggling. There is no question of decreasing. Proportionate. Proportionately, you increase the amenities, and proportionately the distress increases. Paramahaṁsa: It's just like in some countries the diseased men, they suffer in the street, but here we give them a nice place to suffer. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: They can suffer in a nice warm hospital... Prabhupāda: So you are increasing this cancer. Very comfortable at home, but there is cancer. Paramahaṁsa: But now we have almost got the cure. Prabhupāda: You have, all right. My point is that you have so many things, but the suffering is going on. That is my point. You increase your means of diminishing suffering, but they are coming in a different way. So the sufferings cannot be stopped. That is not possible. This is the conclusion. Śrutakīrti: But we're learning how to enjoy even the suffering, make the best of it. Paramahaṁsa: Best use of a bad bargain. Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. That is another bluff. But then don't say that "We shall stop suffering." You can say that... Amogha: No, we don't say we can stop it, but we can almost stop it. Śrutakīrti: Minimize. Prabhupāda: Not minimize. If you are increasing hospital, where is the minimizing? Every state is increasing hospitals. Śrutakīrti: Yeah, well that's part of the minimization. Prabhupāda: (laughing) Fools cannot be convinced. We are helpless to convince. That is the difficulty. Amogha: Actually some of the hospitals are very nice places. They are very comfortable for the patients, and they enjoy it. Prabhupāda: You are thinking that it is very comfortable, but the patient is not thinking. Śrutakīrti: But we have experience where the patient doesn't want to leave because there is such nice facilities in our hospitals, color television, recreational rooms... Amogha: Nice nurse. Prabhupāda: So you become patient and go to the hospital. Śrutakīrti: Just like in our prisons, sometimes the prisoners, they don't want to leave because they don't have to work and they're getting food. They have a bed... Paramahaṁsa: We can teach people how to live with their problems and at the same time learn how to minimize them through technology. Prabhupāda: No, because you have got so many facilities to teach people that "You become patient, you become criminal, and you live comfortably." That is very nice, "You become criminal, go to the jail and live very comfortably." "You become diseased, go to the hospital and live comfortably." That is very easy. Paramahaṁsa: But see, they can't cause any trouble in the jail. That is the advantage. Therefore everyone is comfortable because they see that the murderers are locked up and they can't do any harm. Therefore everyone is feeling safe. And in a hospital people, similarly, they have some disease. They can't... Like in India, the beggars on the street, they should all be in hospitals, whereas in the foreign countries all those type of people are all in hospitals, taken care of. Prabhupāda: Then why hippies are lying on the street? Paramahaṁsa: Well, that is voluntary. Prabhupāda: So, one side, you make arrangement for patient; another side, they voluntarily suffer. Then what you can... Śrutakīrti: No, that is their happiness. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, they are enjoying. Śrutakīrti: It's not suffering to them. They are very happy. Prabhupāda: You are thinking they are unhappy. Amogha: Even the police try to make the hippies get off the street, and they say, "No, no, we like it here. We want to stay." Prabhupāda: Then you want to minimize their suffering? Amogha: No, we will let the hippies lie there, but for the sick people who are... Prabhupāda: What is the difference, a hippie lying on the street and in India some patient is lying on the street? What is the difference? Śrutakīrti: According to the person's desire, we facilitate. Prabhupāda: No, go on, waste your time. Your philosophy is that "If they feel pleasure lying on the street, so let them lie down." That is your philosophy. Then why do you endeavor for others? Paramahaṁsa: Well, if they feel pleasure, then we can also let them. Prabhupāda: So it is then relative. When you... Śrutakīrti: Yes. According to the person's desire. Paramahaṁsa: We just want to see that everyone is happy, and that way we will know that we are pleasing God. *Prabhupāda: Nobody is happy. Therefore in the Bhagavad*-gītā it says, śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Now, something is happiness; the same something is distress. So what is the standard of happiness? The same something is distress for another. One man's food, another man's poison. So where is the standard of happiness? What you are thinking, "This is happiness," others are thinking, "This is distress." Amogha: That's why we have this modern philosophy that whatever makes you feel good you should do. Prabhupāda: No, then everyone will think they don't require philosophy. Śrutakīrti: In this world everything is relative, so it's not expected that the same things will please everyone. Prabhupāda: Then why do you put something as happiness standard or distress standard? So everything is everything, that's all. (laughs) Why do you try to put a standard? Paramahaṁsa: We try to simply make the facility if a person wants to change his position. Prabhupāda: So why you are so much busy in trying like that? Why you are waste your time? You make your own... Śrutakīrti: But that is his happiness. Giving facility to others is what makes me happy. *Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't want to... Just like if you want to give facility to the hippies-"Please come in nice home"*-he will not accept. Śrutakīrti: No, but we don't want to give to the hippies. Prabhupāda: Then what is the meaning? Paramahaṁsa: For those who want... Prabhupāda: You cannot give happiness to everyone according to standard. Then unhappiness will continue, so what is the use of your wasting time? Because you cannot give happiness to everyone, what you think, "It is happiness," others will not accept it. Then where is the happiness? Paramahaṁsa: We can give them what they want, and that will make them happy. Prabhupāda: It is contradictory. One mans want poison; you give him poison. One man wants food, you give him food. Then what is the standard of your food or poison? Then everything is required. Why do you bother? Paramahaṁsa: Well, we have to draw the line somewhere. Prabhupāda: You can do it foolishly. That is another thing. But everything is all right. Poison is all right, and food is all right. Śrutakīrti: The standard is the person's happiness. Amogha: Just like now we have come to the point where the different doctors are thinking very seriously of having this mercy killing passed in the courts. When a person becomes too much diseased, actually he would be happier if he was dead, so why not kill him? Prabhupāda: That is contradictory. He will kill somebody, and he will give life somebody. That is... There is no standard. Everything is all right. Then why do you bother that "This is good"? The same "good" is bad for others. Paramahaṁsa: That's why we have psychiatrists, to decide... They analyze the person very carefully and see what is good for him. And completely on a relative basis they give a prescription. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you think what is good for you? Why you are so busy for the good of others? Śrutakīrti: Well that's this particular person's happiness, is seeing that others are happy. Prabhupāda: No, no. The same happiness is distress for others. Then what is the use, bothering yourself, "This is happiness; this is distress"? Śrutakīrti: Because that is what makes me happy. Amogha: We understand it is relative. Therefore we're working in a relative world. *Prabhupāda: All right, do that. Madman's program. That is Vivekananda, "Everything is all right." "Everything is all right"*-then why do you preach? You stop your preaching. Everything is all right. What is the use of saying that "This is good; this is bad"? Everything is all right. Śrutakīrti: We preach that way so that other people will be happy knowing everything is all right. Now they're thinking everything is not all right, so they're in anxiety. Prabhupāda: There is a story. One man has written book how to tend cows. "Cows tending, cows tending, cows tending." So one old man calling, "What book you are selling?" "How to tend the cows." "So you better take this book to your mother. She will learn how to tend you." Cows tending everyone knows, and he has written a book. "So better... You are a rascal cow. Give it to your mother, and she will tend you, learn." It is like that. If everything is all right, somebody is taking, "This is pleasure," somebody..., then what is the use of writing book? Everything is all right. They may select whatever they like. Oh, why you are becoming a big preacher? Let them accept whatever they like. Amogha: But some people have a hard time getting what they like. Therefore we like to help them. We feel that it's our duty as human beings to help them. Prabhupāda: So this duty is that you better go to your mother. All nonsense theory. It has no meaning. Śrutakīrti: If everything is all right, then my preaching that is also all right. *Prabhupāda: Your preaching is all right, so, provided you preach something good. But when everything is good, then where is the, your preaching required? You preach something. Just like we are preaching. We are preaching. This is actually good for, that he must know what he is and what is the ultimate goal of life. This is required. Material preaching has no value. That is stated in the Caitanya*-caritāmṛta. Ei bhāla ei manda, saba manodharma: " 'This is good; *this is bad,' this is all mental concoction." Actually. But real good is: "He has forgotten God. Revive his consciousness." That is real good. Then he'll saved from the so*-called good and bad and everything. That is wanted. Materially, everything is one man's food, another man's poison. Therefore there is no distinction-"This is good; this is bad." The stool is very bad, bad smell for you, but it is food for the pig. This is proof-"One man's food, another's poison." So this is only mental concoction, "This is good; this is bad." Devotee (1): Eight o'clock. All right. Prabhupāda: Not so early. Śrutakīrti: And no mango for breakfast. *Prabhupāda: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. He is a śūdra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that. Paramahaṁsa: Actually in the West, more or less, that system, the division system, is accepted because we have businessmen, we have labor men, we have politicians, we have teachers and professors. Prabhupāda: It is changed? Śrutakīrti: Changed? Prabhupāda: My wrapper? Śrutakīrti: Yeah, this is the new wrapper. Prabhupāda: New wrapper? Śrutakīrti: I got for you in Vṛndāvana. I'd gotten it in Delhi. Prabhupāda: With that border? Śrutakīrti: No, no, that's this. See there are two wrappers. Prabhupāda: Oh. Both of them are new. Śrutakīrti: Yes. *Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad*-gītā it says that if a man simply works for Kṛṣṇa, he can come to the perfect stage. Is that perfect stage... When he fixes his mind on Kṛṣṇa... But is that achieved via the regulative principles? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (1): If a man simply works for Kṛṣṇa for his whole life, yet he doesn't follow the regulative principles... Prabhupāda: Then how he follows Kṛṣṇa? Devotee (1): That's not possible. Prabhupāda: If you are following Kṛṣṇa, then how you can violate the regulative principles? *Devotee (1): Just like they follow a few regulative principles, like the basic four: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no gambling, and no intoxication. If they follow those four regulative principles and just work for Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: He doesn't follow the four principles? Devotee (1): Oh, yes. Yes. There's this one devotee in Sydney who works very hard for Kṛṣṇa, but... Prabhupāda: But does not follow. Devotee (1): He does not like āratis or things like that. He just likes to work hard all the time. Śrutakīrti: He follows the principles, but he doesn't go to ārati, maybe he doesn't chant his rounds, but he's working... Devotee (1): Real hard for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Like Gargamuni. (laughter) Śrutakīrti: Yes, like that. And his plea is that Kṛṣṇa says... Prabhupāda: Then he will fall down. Devotee (1): He will fall down? Śrutakīrti: But the plea is that Kṛṣṇa says in the *Gītā*, "By working for Me one can come to the perfectional stage." Prabhupāda: Yes, but he will fall down. Śrutakīrti: That means "By working for Me eventually one will come to the point of follow the principles and..." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Not "Simply by working for Me you can do it." Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: You will advance to the other stages. *Prabhupāda: Just like if a man is working hard, but he will never become rich, then what is the use? Working hard means one must become rich. But if he does not become rich, simply working hard, then what is the use? Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You must follow the regulative principles. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is your honesty, and sādhu-saṅga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], this can be done-association with devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati: "This is the way of increasing devotional service." (end) Morning Walk -- May 16, 1975, Perth Paramahaṁsa: ...the history of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday? Prabhupāda: Why not Monday first? Amogha: Well, the sun... Devotee (1): God created the earth, in the Bible. God started on a Monday. He created the earth. It says in the Bible in the Old Testament that it took Him seven days, or six days, and on the seventh day He rested. But still there is some dispute whether He started on a Sunday or a Monday. So the Jewish, the Hebrews, they hold the Sabbath on a Saturday, and the Christians and the Catholics they have the Sabbath on the Sunday. But on the seventh day God rested after creating the heavens and the earths. Śrutakīrti: It was always very bad to engage in any type of work on the Sabbath day. It was used only to glorify the Lord. Paramahaṁsa: For fishing. Amogha: Not any more. Now the post office is closed on Saturday and open all day on Sunday in Perth. Prabhupāda: They have changed? Amogha: Yes. They are open on the Sabbath. Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is the first planet nearer, why they did not start Monday? If the sun is after, then Sunday. This is the proof that first sun, then moon, not that first moon and then sun. Hm? That is the description in the *Bhāgavatam*. One after another, one after another. Sixteen thousand, sixteen hundred thousand miles apart. First of all sun, then moon, then, what is called? Mars. You have seen it. Amogha: Mars is above the moon? Śrutakīrti: But the scientists wouldn't even agree that the sun is the first created thing. Prabhupāda: Who is accepting them as scientists? You can accept them. Why Sunday first? Wherefrom they have gotten? Śrutakīrti: That was gotten from Greek mythology. Prabhupāda: Then Greek, where they got it? Devotee (1): Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden. Prabhupāda: Where they got these demigods? Śrutakīrti: From Greek mythology. Prabhupāda: Greek mythology, that's all right. But where they got? Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they made it up. Amogha: But all knowledge comes from the *Vedas*. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Greek history is about three thousand years. [break] ...During the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit's grandson. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the grandson of Yudhiṣṭhira, and Yudhiṣṭhira ruled over five thousand years ago. So the Yayāti... Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's grandson is Parīkṣit. His son is Janamejaya. And his son is Yayāti. And his son started Greek and Roman Empire. So therefore the Greek history is not more than three thousand years. Mahārāja Yayāti banished his two sons to the European quarters. Mleccha*-yavana. Later on they became yavana, from Vedic culture deviated. This is the history. Amogha: He sent them there for conquering? Prabhupāda: Huh? No. He gave him, that "You take that place." Amogha: Oh. "This is your kingdom." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Every, all world was emperor, the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira and the family. Sa*-sāgara. Sa-sāgara means "including all the oceans." That means the whole world. There was one flag only during the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. And he first saw the cow-killing maybe in Africa or in Arabia. One black man was trying to kill a cow, and Mahārāja Parīkṣit was on tour, and immediately he punished him. That is Kali. The black man means Africa. Or where other place, black men? Paramahaṁsa: Some of the, there are some natives in Asia also, southeast Asia, that are black. Prabhupāda: Arabia? No. Arabians are not black. Paramahaṁsa: Not... Generally they're not so black. Indonesians are black. Prabhupāda: No. Śrutakīrti: Africa is about the only place other than some islands. Prabhupāda: Yes. Africa is black. Amogha: Aborigines here also. Paramahaṁsa: They have black natives here also, Australia. Prabhupāda: They are all descendant of the same. Amogha: Did the Greek civilization follow the Vedic culture? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They were worshiping demigods from the *Vedas*. Paramahaṁsa: But they didn't have a very high standard. Prabhupāda: These, these Vedic mantra, there is mention of so many demigods, how they were born. You do not know the meaning. Paramahaṁsa: No, we are just chanting. *Prabhupāda: How, one after another, how one is born out of the... That is... How the brāhmaṇas were there, kṣatriyas were there*-everything in Vedic... These Vedic mantra means the history of human society. And the origin is God, Kṛṣṇa, Nārāyaṇa. There are other mantras wherein it is stated, eko nārāyaṇa āsīt. "Only Nārāyaṇa was there." Neither Lord Śiva nor Brahmā. Later on, they came. When he first cites the mantra, vande mahā-puruṣa te caraṇāravindam, śiva-viriñci-nutam [SB 11.5.33]. Śiva means Lord Śiva, and viriñci means Brahmā. All of them offer respect to Nārāyaṇa. Indian astrology was taken by the Arabians first. The one, two, three, four, five, six, these figures were taken from India, up to nine, then zero. Then you make all mathematical, arithmetical calculation. Amogha: The Arabic numerals came from India? Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all they took the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven... Śrutakīrti: The Romans had a very complicated system. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) If you write 1975 it will become so big. (laughter) Śrutakīrti: Yeah. Some twenty letters. *Prabhupāda: This "Sunday, Monday," means first sun, then moon. Where they are going? They are going to hell, not in the moon. This Vedic description is right. Because first study, Sunday... That, we offer gāyatrī to the sun. So the moon is after the sun*-this is the proof, first Sunday, then Monday. So if their calculation is 93,000,000 miles from here, and moon is (sic:) one million, six thousand still farther, then where they are going? If they simply follow strictly this moon expedition and they admit they have not gone, then the whole civilization will change. All wrong conclusion. But they will have to admit now. Now they are serious, and they will have to say that they've never gone to the moon. And they will have to continue this. Otherwise they will be farce before the world. They will have to continue it. Now they are in such a position. Paramahaṁsa: They can't just stop and say, "OK, now we..." Prabhupāda: If they stop, then they are failure. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And then everyone will complain, "Oh, you wasted billions of dollars." Prabhupāda: And if they go, then they will have the right information. But they will never be able to go. Devotee (1): Just like Rāvaṇa could not reach the heavenly planets just by building the staircase. Prabhupāda: That was his only demonic proposal, that "We make staircase." He said that "Why you are undergoing so much austerities to go to the heavenly planets? I shall make a staircase. You will go." Amogha: How high did he make it? Prabhupāda: He never attempted. He simply bluffed, that's all. So demons' proposals are like that. Therefore it is a common say in, hearsay in the, in India, that rāvaṇe sarge sini(?): "The proposal is just like Rāvaṇa proposed to make a staircase to the heavenly planets." He was also very much advanced materially, very prosperous materially. Gold was very common thing. He brought gold from Brazil through the subway. His brother was king there, in southern America. Amogha: Kumbhakarṇa? Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. Mahī, mahī means the earth. He used to go through the subway, through the earth. So other side there was another Rāvaṇa. That is Mahīrāvaṇa. Devotee (1): He built the subway? Prabhupāda: Yes. The subway is still there, Brazil. Somebody said? Paramahaṁsa: Well, they found some parts of a subway there, some big tunnel. But they don't know where it goes, though. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is from Ceylon to Brazil, subway. And Rāvaṇa's civilization, Rāmacandra's fight, some millions of years ago. That is in the Tretā*-yuga. The duration of Kali-yuga is about, say, four lakhs of years. And Dvāpara-yuga, eight lakhs of years. And then Tretā-yuga, twelve lakhs of years. *Paramahaṁsa: About two millions years ago, Tretā*-yuga. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why? Twenty lakhs, ah, two million, yes. Two millions of years ago the Rāvaṇa's civilization was there, and he was so prosperous. He had airplane. The zeplin, zeplin? Amogha: Jet plane? Prabhupāda: Not jet, zeplin. Amogha: Oh, with the air and gas inside. Prabhupāda: Yes. His son's name was Meghadūta. He was flying above the cloud. Therefore his name was Megha. Megha means cloud. They were so much advanced in civilization. Paramahaṁsa: What kind of civilization was in South America at that time? Prabhupāda: The same like. Therefore these Mexicans, South American, they resemble therefore almost Indian body. Amogha: They also eat food... They eat a food similar to the cāpāṭi. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Tortillas. Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi, in Middle East also they eat. Devotee (1): Yes, in Lebanon. Paramahaṁsa: In Tehran we saw those big cāpāṭis. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Six feet long. Prabhupāda: Yes, so big. One cāpāṭi is sufficient for the whole family. They are sold in market, purchased. Śrutakīrti: Very cheaply. Paramahaṁsa: Only three or four cents apiece. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Prabhupāda: They don't make much profit. That is the oriental culture. They make little profit; they are satisfied. Still in India you will find many hotel, very cheap, very cheap. Especially Mohammedan hotels. Still, by paying eight annas, you can get full meal. Devotee (1): When Rāvaṇa was on the earth, was the whole earth populated, like Brazil and also the other parts of the world? Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere population. This is a new theory of the rascals that there was no civilization before three thousand years. This is wrong theory. Everything was there. Devotee (1): So when Mahārāja Yayāti banished his sons to those kingdoms, they were already populated there. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Paramahaṁsa: They seem to be pretty much kṣatriya races. Prabhupāda: And during Kurukṣetra fight, all different kings joined, either to this party or that party. Amogha: Oh, from all over the world. *Prabhupāda: It was first*-grade world war, Kurukṣetra. There is the one king, Śaibya, he came from Śibiya. Where is Śibiya? Amogha: Siberia? Prabhupāda: Śibiya. Amogha: Oh, Śibiya? That's Africa. Prabhupāda: No, maybe there. There were... All the kings of the world, they joined, either this party or that party. Friends, friendly countries, they joined. Just like Kṛṣṇa. He personally joined Arjuna, but He gave His soldiers to Duryodhana. It was family war. So the friends divided, "I will join you." It was sporting. For the kṣatriya fighting is sporting. They have football match. They did not take it as enmities. Just in the evening they are friends. This party goes to that party, that party goes to... It is a decision, who will be king, that's all. Test of strength. Actually it was not enmity. "Let us fight, and who is strong he will be king, that's all." Devotee (1): And the losers will go to the heavenly planets. Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone who dies in such fight, he goes to heavenly planet. Devotee (1): So they were not afraid of dying. *Prabhupāda: No, why? They knew. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. "I am not going to die after the annihilation of this body." It was a common understanding. Not that such a man, big man, director, he says, "No, no, I don't believe in the soul." (chuckles) Therefore I said the fourth*-class man. In India still, even a common man, uneducated farmer, he believes. He believes. He believes in God. He believes in transmigration. He believes in his karma. These things which will take thousands of years to be learned by the Westerners, even the common man knows still. Devotee (1): And all Kṛṣṇa's soldiers were killed? Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: So Kṛṣṇa fought against His own soldiers also. Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa did not fight. Amogha: Oh, that's right. Prabhupāda: He did not. Amogha: But He led the fight. Prabhupāda: He was chariot driver at the risk of being killed. The other party may kill the chariot driver to stop the progress of the enemy. They kill. They kill the horses, they kill the charioteer, then the person. So Kṛṣṇa took the risk of being killed. Bhīṣma attacked Him. He pierced His body with arrows. *Devotee (1): I think the tribes in South America, the Aztecs, they were also worshipers of the sun*-god. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): They had very much gold. And the Spanish, they came and plundered the gold. Prabhupāda: The aborigines here, they have got any religion? Devotee (1): Where? Prabhupāda: Here in Australia. Devotee (1): Well, they mostly worship ghosts and spirits, I think. Trees. Prabhupāda: Bhūtejyā. Devotee (1): Yes. Prabhupāda: So there is religion. Yānti bhūtāni bhūtejyā. What is this "UJV"? Amogha: That is the license plate. Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the... Generally, the city's name are there. Devotee (1): Well, it usually has a U before the initials. I don't know why. *Amogha: Generally, they make them all*-each one is a little bit different. Devotee (1): Was Mahīrāvaṇa also a demon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): What happened to him? Prabhupāda: He was killed by Rāmacandra. Amogha: He was called by his brother, wasn't he...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: ...to Ceylon in the battle? Prabhupāda: No, he made a plan to kill Rāmacandra. Amogha: Rāmacandra made a plan? *Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. And in that plan he was killed. [break] That is Indo*-European civilization. The kings came from India, and he developed. Therefore it is called Indo-European civilization. Paramahaṁsa: The scientists and the archaeologists are very amazed to find the structures, the buildings that they had in their civilization. They can't understand how they were built, such huge pillars and gigantic stones. They don't know how they were put into place. Prabhupāda: Similarly, the Jagannātha temple is also like that. They suggest that they manufacture, and then they surround with sand, then further manufacture. And when it is complete the sand is taken away. Otherwise how it is put into...? The sand is stacked just like this. The temple is being manufactured, and the sand is thrown all side, and when it is finished, the sand is taken away. Devotee (1): The temple is manufactured in the sand? Prabhupāda: No, as usual. Just like they dig well. They dig well. They begin immediately, and then you dig the earth, and the structure goes down. Then again, then again, like that. They were experts, they were experts, to construct... Labor is cheap. That time, practically there was no labor cost. At the present moment, on account of factories, the labor cost has increased. Otherwise the laborers, they were, they have no sufficient employment. So two annas, four annas. I was paying labor, four annas, say, in 1930s. Four annas. In Allahabad I was paying four annas. He would work whole day. In Bombay eight annas. Devotee (1): They also have the big structures in Egypt, the pyramids. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Perhaps they used sand also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: The Greeks say that they built their buildings... They hired some very big men called cyclopses, big giants. And they came and built all the buildings. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And such stories are in Mahābhārata also. The demons were engaged, giants and demons, for construction. Yes. And they were very good artist, how to do it. Now we employ the first*-class men, so-called first-class engineering, but they were meant for the demons and giants. Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Well, that explains how they built such fantastic temples and palaces. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Some people say, "Why don't we see any giants any more today?" Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Africa, there were many giants, very high, very strong. Devotee (1): . Where is that? Paramahaṁsa: In Africa some of the natives, very big, eight feet tall. Prabhupāda: Very tall. Devotee (1): In South America also, they used to have the Amazons, a big race. Paramahaṁsa: Didn't one demon construct a big parliament house for Kṛṣṇa? That demon Māyā? For King Yudhiṣṭhira? Prabhupāda: Umm. *Amogha: Aṣṭa*-siddhi dāsa, when he came back from Fiji he told us a story that the local people say that Kāliya snake, after he ran away, he lives in Fiji in a big lake. Devotee (1): On top of a mountain. Prabhupāda: Yes, he was driven away from Vṛndāvana. (pause) They are all going to the downtown? Devotee (1): Yes. To the factory areas also, in Freemantle. Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is the factory area? Devotee (1): About ten miles down the coast. They have very big factories, very bad pollution. Big factories down south, in one place called Freemantle. It's a little way down. Prabhupāda: Three miles? Devotee (1): Ten. Prabhupāda: Ten miles. How long it will take to go and come? Amogha: To the factory? Prabhupāda: No, that area. Devotee (1): It takes about one hour to go down there. Three quarters of an hour. Prabhupāda: One hour? For ten miles? Devotee (1): It's a lot of traffic. Prabhupāda: Oh. What factories they have got? Devotee (1): Big, big steel factories. Prabhupāda: Steel factory. Devotee (1): Yes. Also aluminium factories. Prabhupāda: Aluminium. And still, there is problem. That man said? Amogha: Yes. He said the bauxite mineral, the multinational or international companies are exploiting, interested in exploiting the bauxite minerals to make much aluminium. Prabhupāda: Now aluminium is in great demand for manufacturing airplane. They are all manufactured from aluminium. (someone shouts in distance) What does he say? Amogha: I think he was barking. Paramahaṁsa: Just a rākṣasa. Amogha: When we walk in the city in Perth the young people, many people, they say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." They say, "Oh, there is Hare Kṛṣṇa." *Prabhupāda: There was a newspaper clipping in the Bhagavad*-gītā. I saw. Devotee (1): Oh, yes, that is mine. It was about three years ago, three or four years ago. They put one article. Amogha was supposed to come over from Sydney. I was not even a devotee then, but still, they put this article that there were three devotees in Perth chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Amogha: That was because I was going to Indonesia and I stopped here on the way. *Devotee (1): Many people in Perth, they have the books. About one and a half years ago we were over here and we were distributing the big Kṛṣṇa books and the Bhagavad*-gītā, many books. Prabhupāda: So you are not distributing now? Devotee (1): Yes, we are still distributing, only around Christmas in Perth. During the rest of the time of the year, it is not very crowded. *Amogha: When we came over here, we stayed in a hotel before we found the house about ten days ago. And when we came to the motel, the lady said, "Oh, someone has left this book here." And she gave us a Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. (pause) Yesterday the United States attacked and sank three Cambodian boats. They are fighting because the Cambodian Communists, the new government, captured one United States freighter. So now they are beginning to try to take it back. (pause) The bus is empty again. Prabhupāda: A very good bus. Paramahaṁsa: Practically every one of these cars only has one person in it. Devotee (1): So actually, they have not advanced technologically from the civilizations of Rāvaṇa's time? Prabhupāda: That is not civilization. Technological advancement is not civilization. It is the advancement of ugra knowledge. Real civilization is to advance in Brahman knowledge. If there are brāhmaṇas, that is advancement. This is not advancement because they do not know what is advancement. They have no knowledge that "I have to die, and I have to accept another body after death." They do not know it. So long this body is there, they are trying to have very comfortable position. But they do not know that after this body, he has to accept another body. So how this technology will help him? If, in this life, by technological advancement you live very comfortably, and next life you become a dog, then where is the advancement? That they do not know. Suppose... We have got visa for two weeks? Paramahaṁsa: Three weeks. Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Now, if in Perth I begin one big skyscraper building and then after three weeks I am kicked out, then is that very good intelligence? I know that I shall remain here for three weeks, and if I begin one skyscraper building, and then, during the time of constructing or, say, after the construction is finished, I am kicked out, then where is that intelligence? Just like Napoleon. He wanted to construct that arch. You have not seen. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, I have seen. *Prabhupāda: But he could not finish it. So this is his intelligence. Such a big man, Napoleon, that is his intelligence. And what to speak of others. Everyone knows that "I will have to die," and when death will come, nobody knows. At any moment it may come. So he will not be able to enjoy what he is doing, but still, he is doing. And his real business is forgotten. His real business is to stop his birth and death process and go back to home, back to Godhead. That is his real business. He does not know the real... Therefore they are called mūḍhas. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So it is a civilization of the mūḍhas, fourth*-class men. Devotee (1): Should the devotees think that "Any moment, I can die"? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. Why they will think? It is a fact. There is English proverb, "There is many dangers between the cups and the lips." You are going to drink tea. The distance is: here is cup and here is lip. There may be many dangers. So suppose in drinking tea there is some choking within the throat, and coughing, you may die immediately. You are so much under the control of nature. Little mistake will cause your death, little mistake. And conditioned life means we commit mistake, we are illusioned, we cheat, and our knowledge is imperfect. This is conditioned life. Amogha: I telephoned that geographer yesterday to talk to him, and he said that "What Swamiji said was true, but how can...?" He said, "It will be very difficult to apply because most people, they are not interested." But he says it was very... He could understand that was true, what you were saying. He may also come again to talk more. Prabhupāda: Yes, let him come. Let him come. People may take or not take, but he is inquisitive gentleman. Let him understand. People... We are preaching. Who is taking? Mass of people, they are not taking it. But still, we are doing that. That is our duty. People may take or not take, but a God's servant must speak the truth. Just like Jesus Christ. He was crucified. Nobody took his words. But he did it. If people would have accepted his philosophy, then why he was crucified by the judges? It was done by the judges, Roman judges. So this is the position of the world. Socrates was killed because he said that there is soul. This is the defect of Western civilization. They want vox populi. What is that vox populi? Huh? Devotee (1): Bauxite? Prabhupāda: Vox populi. You know this word? Śrutakīrti: Yeah, Latin. *Prabhupāda: Latin, yes. People's vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth*-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting. Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent? Amogha: That must be why it says... It says, "The Gospel according to John," "The Gospel according to Mark." Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Devotee (1): Even his disciples denounced him when they were going to crucify him. They said, "Oh, I do not know Jesus." *Prabhupāda: [break] ...they are after zeros. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sa..., śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda*-viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitam means zero. [break] Advancement of civilization is zero. If you add many thousands of zero, does the value increases? Amogha: No. Prabhupāda: It remains zero. Amogha: Big zero. *Prabhupāda: There must be one. Then it will increase the value. That one, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will make this material civilization hundred times important. And without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all zeros. [break] ...next life, supposing hypothetically I am going to be a dog, then what is this civilization? But that you cannot say, "No, I am not going to be dog," because you do not know. You are under the, completely under the grip of material nature. And there are cats and dogs. How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara*-prāptiḥ. You will get another body. So how you can say that "No, I am not going to be a dog"? You cannot say; *you are not independent. You cannot make your choice. Karmaṇā daiva*-netreṇa [SB 3.31.1]. By your work, it will be decided by higher authorities. Then how you can say, "No, no, I am not... There is no life, there is no..." It is all nonsense. Therefore without this knowledge, all this material opulence, it is all zero. It may be some fact for fifty or sixty years, but the world is not for fifty or sixty years, for millions and millions of years. (end) Room Conversation with Alcohol and Drug Hospital People -- May 16, 1975, Perth Paramahaṁsa: ...to solve the problem of drug and alcohol addiction and, of course, they're concerned with the causes of it and things like that. Prabhupāda: So you can send all these alcohol and drug patients here and they will be cured. These boys, American and European boys, they were all addicted to alcohol, drugs. Now they have given up. Practical. Guest (1): In what way would they cure? *Prabhupāda: Simply I say that "If you want to be my student, then you must give up four things: illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, and gambling." This is my condition. So they give up, and they become my student. Guest (2): Do they suffer withdrawal symptoms? Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Do they suffer withdrawal symptoms?" Sometimes when a patient is giving up alcohol or drugs, he goes through various symptoms which are painful. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That should be... But unless... Find out this, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Rasa*-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. Devotee (2): "The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness." Prabhupāda: Purport. *Devotee (2): Purport? "Unless one is transcendentally situated, it is not possible to cease from sense enjoyment. The process of restriction from sense enjoyment by rules and regulations is something like restricting a diseased person from certain types of edibles. The patient, however, neither likes such restriction, nor loses his taste for edibles. Similarly, sense restriction by some spiritual process like aṣṭāṅga*-yoga, in the matter of yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, dhāraṇā, dhyāna, etc., is recommended for less intelligent persons who have no better knowledge. But one who has tasted the beauty of the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa in the course of his advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness no longer has a taste for dead material things. Therefore, restrictions are there for the less intelligent neophytes in the spiritual advancement of life, but such restrictions are only good if one actually has a taste for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one is actually Kṛṣṇa conscious, he automatically loses his taste for pale things." Guest (1): What is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I might ask? Prabhupāda: Tell him. Paramahaṁsa: Well, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, or the Supreme Soul, and we are all individual souls. So naturally we have an awareness of our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, or God. When we say God or Kṛṣṇa, we don't mean my God or your God, but we mean God, no matter which religion we're speaking of. So all of us naturally have a capacity to love Kṛṣṇa, or God, and we can awaken this relationship with Him. And when that is awakened, then all unwanted things disappear, because everybody is actually frustrated, looking for permanent happiness in this temporary world. But when we awaken our Kṛṣṇa consciousness then all of those frustrations disappear, and so all such problems like drug addiction become unnecessary. Guest (2): How long does this process of withdrawal take? Paramahaṁsa: He says how long does it take to stop taking drugs by the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: If one lives with us at least for six months, he will give up. Guest (2): Six months. And are there cases which relapse? Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Are there cases of..., which relapse? Persons who begin to withdraw from drugs...?" Prabhupāda: Maybe one in five hundred. Guest (2): One in five hundred. Prabhupāda: There is. Everyone is prone to fall down. But that percentage is very low, say, one in five hundred. We have got about ten thousand students all over the world. Out of them, they have fallen about ten or, say, fifteen, that's all. Guest (2): You means you have ten thousand students who used to be addicted to something? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Addicted to everything*-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. And now they have given up everything. Guest (2): And those who relapse, can they be treated again? Prabhupāda: Again? Paramahaṁsa: Those who have relapsed, can they be treated again? Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, that I say. Say, utmost, ten out of ten thousand. Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Can they be treated again, a second time?" Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even American government is pleased with this movement because they have spent so much millions of dollars for stopping LSD, and they are surprised that when the people come here, they give up. Guest (3): Do you teach abstinence or moderation in the use of these things? Prabhupāda: No, we say "Stop." We don't allow even smoking and drinking tea. That is also intoxication. We are so strict. But still, they give up. None of us take tea. We eat very simple things, vegetables, wheat, rice, little milk, that's all. Guest (1): Did you say you eat meat? Paramahaṁsa: Wheat, wheat. Guest (1): Wheat. Ah. Is there any reason why you don't, you prohibit people from eating meat? *Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful. It is sinful. According to Vedic conception, these four things are sinful activities, four pillars. Just like four pillars, the legs of this table, similarly, illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication, and gambling are the four legs of sinful life. Guest (1): What do you consider illicit sex? Prabhupāda: Illicit sex means animal life. The marriage is in the human society, not in the dog society. So if one has illicit sex, that means he is no better than dog. Guest (2): I don't quite understand that. Did you say that illicit means sex between people who are not married? Prabhupāda: Yes. Sex is allowed only married couple. And that is also only for begetting child. Guest (1): Married under what law? Under what religion? Under what religious law? *Prabhupāda: There is in Bhagavad*-gītā, that dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out. You can come here and read. Paramahaṁsa: Which was that? Dharma... Prabhupāda: Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Paramahaṁsa: Dharmāviruddho bhūteṣu? *Prabhupāda: No, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharma*-aviruddha. You know that verse. Paramahaṁsa: Is that balaṁ balavatāṁ cāham? Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, yes, yes. Paramahaṁsa: Guest (1): You can follow actually? What does that exactly mean? It's a direct translation, I think. Paramahaṁsa: He says, "What does that exactly mean?" Prabhupāda: Explain to him. Paramahaṁsa: Well, as it explains here, "The strong man's strength should be applied to protect the weak, not for personal aggression. Similarly, sex life, according to religious principles, dharma, should be for the propagation of children, not otherwise. The responsibility of parents is then to make their offspring Kṛṣṇa conscious." Guest (2): The question was which religion, which religious principle? Paramahaṁsa: Well, he means our marriage under... We accept that marriage, sex life in marriage, is licit, not illicit. So he asked, "Under what religious principles or under which religion?" Prabhupāda: Any religion. Christian religion does not allow illicit sex. No adultery. Guest (2): Any religious principles? *Prabhupāda: This is religious principle. In the animal kingdom there is no marriage, but in the human society*-may be Christian, may be Hindu, may be Muslim-there is marriage system. That is religious system. Guest (2): Is polygamy illicit? Prabhupāda: No. Guest (2): Not illicit. But it is... Prabhupāda: Polygamy means if it is married. Just like in the Vedic society they used to marry many wives. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. And He maintained them sixteen thousand palaces. And He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand Kṛṣṇas. So that is a different thing; He is God. But if you can maintain each and every wife, you can marry more than one wife. But if you are unable to maintain, that is illicit. All the kṣatriya kings, they used to marry more than one wife. Still in India, the kṣatriyas, kings, they have more than one wife. But they maintain very nicely. Guest (2): But your method of curing drug addiction has no definite practical use, surely. Prabhupāda: Why not practical? Guest (2): Not everyone who wants to stop taking drugs can spend six months in solitude or in a company like yours. Paramahaṁsa: He says he finds it not practical because not everyone who is addicted to drugs can spend six months in a temple with us. Prabhupāda: They are spending years. They are all European, Americans. They are not Indians. We have got here... You go to Melbourne. We have got big branch. In Sydney we have got. In Europe. They are doing that. It requires training, proper training. Then it will be done. Guest (1): Well, if there is someone who wouldn't like to perhaps join this religion, but still wants to get treated... Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is a culture. Guest (1): Oh. Yes, this culture... Prabhupāda: Because we are admitting persons from various religions, various nations, various countries, and they accept this culture and they become purified. Guest (1): Do they have to wear those clothes and shave their heads and chanting those things... Prabhupāda: That is optional. That is also optional. That is not compulsory. But in India because the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they dress in a particular way, they do that. But that is not compulsory. But it has got a psychological effect, because whenever we go, people chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So by this dress, we give chance, the other men, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Well, could you correct me if I'm wrong. We have a society called Ramakrishna Society, a society in Burma. Those people who founded this society and are practicing Kṛṣṇa culture, they don't wear those things, or they don't chant in their temple, but they do all sorts of social welfare type of thing. Is there any difference between... Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission is not Vedic. It is a creation of Vivekananda's concoction. It is not Vedic. Just like they created a God, Ramakrishna. So that is not a Vedic sanction, that you create any fool rascal, a god. Guest (1): Isn't yours a product of or derivative of Vedic? Prabhupāda: Yes, completely. Guest (1): So how would you... Prabhupāda: Just like whatever question you are asking, we are answering from Vedic literature. We are not answering ourself. That is the difference. The evidence is from the Vedic literature. I don't say that "In my opinion it is like this." We don't say. Guest (1): I'm sorry, I missed that point. Could you please explain? Paramahaṁsa: He said it is Vedic because the answers he is giving are not his opinion or concoction, but he is giving from the Vedic knowledge or the Vedic scriptures instead of making up his own opinion. That is the meaning of Vedic; it is based on the Vedic teachings exactly. Guest (1): But the Ramakrishna wasn't. Prabhupāda: No. Guest (1): They formed their own way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Do you consider that this kind of practice or the practicing this kind of culture is regimentated? A person has to come in and spend sometimes in the temple, and... Prabhupāda: Yes, the association, the influence of association. If you go to a drunkard association, you become a drunkard. And if you go to a saintly association, you become a saint. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. Find out. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: If one becomes lusty and if it is not fulfilled, he becomes angry. This is all psychological. Guest (2): Yeah, well, when a person is attached to that group in the temple, isn't this, become a lust too? You see, being influenced by the group and also attached to the people... Prabhupāda: We are teaching to be influenced by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we have written fifty books like that, four hundred pages. You can show some of our books. *Paramahaṁsa: This is Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, Volume Two, Volume Four... Prabhupāda: Sixty volumes. Paramahaṁsa: *Nectar of Devotion*. *Guest (4): You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on books. Are you following any particular path of yoga, niyama*-yoga...? *Paramahaṁsa: She says we place a lot of emphasis on books, and she wonders if we are following a particular path such as dhyāna*-yoga or jñāna-yoga or what? *Prabhupāda: Bhakti*-yoga. *Guest (4): Bhakti*-yoga. Prabhupāda: There are different types of yogas. And you will find Paramahaṁsa: *Prabhupāda: This is bhakti*-yoga. Guest (2): Well, doesn't it mean that someone has to worship that person to be able to attain the enlightenment or Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is worshiping a person. Everyone is... But we have to worship the Supreme Person. That is perfect. Everyone is worshiping a person. Suppose you are employed somewhere. You have to worship your boss. Otherwise no employment. Guest (2): Oh, well, I consider it as a mutual... Prabhupāda: It is mutual. It is mutual. Guest (2): It's a mutual kind of support. But worshiping in a sense of religion or in a sense of a higher person, it's a different matter. Prabhupāda: Worshiping means appreciating high qualities. Worshiping is not blind. If I know that you have some high qualities, I worship you. Guest (2): Do you worship to a person or what? To his doctrines or...? *Prabhupāda: Worship means person. Worship does not mean imperson. Unless there is a person*-to-person relationship, there is no question of worship. Guest (2): Is... This picture of Śrī Viṣṇu, it's the person who you worship or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): He is the creator. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): And, in the sense that He is called Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is His another form. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu's another form. Guest (2): I see, yes. Prabhupāda: Find out, aham ādir hi devānām [Bg 10.2]. Guest (3): What is your correlation between belief and science? You mentioned that science is involved. Prabhupāda: Science? Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. What do you mean by science? *Guest (3): Well, the human sciences or otherwise is a study on its own. What is the relationship or the link*-up between that and your faith? *Prabhupāda: The relationship*-God is the creator of everything. So everything has got relationship with God. So what do you think of this science? The Vedānta-sūtra, it says, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now this human life is meant for understanding the science of God." So the question is what is God? The answer is: janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. "God or the Supreme Absolute Truth is that from whom everything has come." So this is our science, the origin of everything. Guest (3): Yes, the origin of everything. But why is it necessary for man to have to discover? I mean, man discovered the cure for poliomyelitis. Prabhupāda: Why man discovers? Guest (3): Yes, well, I'm using it as an example. Prabhupāda: But he... Just like... It is not the question of discover, but because you are existing, you must have come from a father. That is science. It is not the question of finding out a father. Without father, there is no existence of you. It is not the question of finding out a father. Father must be there. This is science. Without father, is there any existence of any man or any animal? What your science says? Is it possible that anyone is existing without a father? What do you think? Guest (4): I was just wondering, um, do you believe in... Prabhupāda: Who is there independently existing without having a father? What is that science? Guest (2): It's not necessarily in the science itself... Prabhupāda: No, no, this is a sign, that if there is a man, he must have a father. This is science. So what is your opinion about this science? Guest (1): I see it as a straight, deductive logic. If there is a... Prabhupāda: ...son, there must be father. That is science. Guest (1): Don't you think this kind of reasoning is a deductive logic rather than inductive? Prabhupāda: No, what is the reasoning yours, that you deny father? Guest (3): The father must have a father too, mustn't he? Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, there must be supreme father. Guest (3): Well, who is the supreme father's father? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is enquiry, that you have got your father, your father has got father, he has got his father, he has got... Who is the supreme father? He is God. Guest (1): Who is God's father? *Prabhupāda: Nobody is His father. That is God. God is everyone's father, but He is without father. That is God. So long one has got father, he is not God. When you come to the point that here is the person who has no father-He is independent*-that is God. The definition of God is given in the Vedic literature. Guest (1): It becomes a belief rather than a logic now, then, for when we think about the God. You were saying everybody has father, so why God, in exception, He hasn't got a father? Prabhupāda: Therefore He is God, that He can exist without father. But you cannot exist without father. That is the difference between you and God. Guest (2): Is God in the form of male or female or anything? Prabhupāda: He is male. Otherwise how He can beget? Female cannot beget without man's contact. The prakṛti, the nature, is female, and God is male. Find out this verse, Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: So material nature is the mother, and God is the father. Guest (2): But to whom did God give the seed? *Prabhupāda: The prakṛti, material nature. That is said here. Just like for begetting a child, both the father and mother requires. So the material nature is the mother, and God is the father. So so many forms of life are coming from the womb of material nature. This body is made of matter. This body is earth, water, air, fire, like that. This is made of... But I am the soul. That is from God. I am part and parcel of God, as soul. Mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ. Find out. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest (2): Is there an animal soul, Swami? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is already said, sarva*-yoniṣu, "all forms of life." Even ant, tree, birds, plant, trees, everything. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. All of them, the soul is there. And they have got different... Just like you are differently dressed, I am differently dressed, but you are also soul, I am also soul. Guest (4): You're really talking about the ātman? Aren't you? Prabhupāda: Ātmā, yes, soul is ātmā. And the soul of the soul is God, Paramātmā. Guest (2): Is it possible for us to communicate with plants? Prabhupāda: With...? Paramahaṁsa: With plants. Is it possible for us to communicate with plants? *Prabhupāda: Yes, they have done. Sir Jagadish Candra Bose in Calcutta, Bose Institute, he has proved-he has got machine*-that they feel pains and pleasure, which is recorded in the machine. If you pluck one leaf, they feel. Immediately it is recorded in the machine. Guest (2): Could I come back to that eating of meat? Related to this alive, soul, matter. Aren't you in a sense eating another soul too if you're eating vegetables? Not only if you're eating meat? *Prabhupāda: No, the thing is, the material world... It is said, jīvo jīvasya jīvanam: "One living entity has to eat another living entity to keep himself alive." That is the natural law. But you should have discrimination. Because you have to eat some other living entity, it does not mean that you will eat your own son. You cannot support that "Because I have to live by eating another living entity, so what is the wrong if I eat my son?" Therefore the Vedic injunction is tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. You are given some jurisdiction. You can eat. And actually you do so. Because I have to eat something, we do not eat anything and everything. We have got discrimination. So according to Bhagavad*-gītā... Find out this verse, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. Paramahaṁsa: Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we accept what is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa wants these things: fruits, flower, vegetable, grains, milk. So we offer them and eat. Guest (2): Why not animals? Prabhupāda: He does not say, "Give Me animals." Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, we cannot take anything which is not accepted by Kṛṣṇa. Guest (2): Are blood transfusions permissible, Swami? Paramahaṁsa: He says, "Are blood transfusions permissible?" When one is in an accident or cut and he loses blood, they take another man's blood and put it it. He says... Prabhupāda: Well, that is not bad. Because if one life is saved by transfusion admission... He is not dying. He is living. He is contributing his blood. So if he is contributing, you are saving some life, there is no harm. Guest (2): But blood is animal tissue. [break] Prabhupāda: How they liked? Paramahaṁsa: Um, the younger ones liked better. The nurse was asking where she could..., if she could refer people to visit us here, and I told her we don't know if this will be the permanent address, but as soon as we have a permanent address here I'll notify her. But she was wondering if she could send people, if the people would be welcome to come and visit and see the place here. And the Buddhist boy, he bought an incense from us. He said, "Where is that nice smell coming from?" I said, "Incense." He said, "I want some." The other gentlemen I don't... They're more set in their ways kind of men. I couldn't tell whether they were impressed or not. They don't express very well. Prabhupāda: But all their questions were answered. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. When you told him where is the man who has, where is the person who did not come from a father, he began to... Before that, he was going to challenge whether this was science or belief, but then he had to be quiet. He just mumbled. Prabhupāda: And they inquired, "Then God has father?" No, God without father. That is God. That is the distinction between ordinary living entity and God. Paramahaṁsa: So I will try to arrange someone for tonight and tomorrow morning; that geographer, I hope. And the people from the radio conversation. They're very well known, actually. Because I asked the geographer man, I said, "Do you know this man, Tim Downs?" And he said, "Oh, yes. I have heard him many times." Prabhupāda: Tim Down? Paramahaṁsa: Tim Downs. He is the man who may come from radio to make a conversation. Then they will play it on radio. But I have to find out if he's coming. And in the case that there may be three people who want to come, so would it be possible for tonight to having two, maybe five o'clock and seven o'clock or something like that? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. I will keep in touch with those people and let them know. I will send them some literature too. Should I go and telephone those people? Prabhupāda: Um hm. (end) Talk -- May 16, 1975, Perth Amogha: There are three or four men coming at ten o'clock. One Mr. Nera(?) from the... They're all from one place where they deal with alcoholics and drug addicts. And they work for the government. And Mr. Nera(?) is a social worker, and for fifteen years he's worked in mental hospitals also. And there's a psychologist from Burma, and a psychiatric nurse and maybe one other, at ten o'clock. And I talked to some people who do radio conversations yesterday. And they want me to check back today. But they may come tonight or possibly tomorrow morning. Is it all right for tomorrow morning also? Prabhupāda: When we are starting? Amogha: We are starting not... The plane flies at two o'clock. So in the morning there would be time, I think. But if they come they will broadcast it on radio, the conversation. And perhaps that man, the geographer, will come again. He told me to check back today because he has to see if he can make it in the schedule. Prabhupāda: So when he will be given time, five? Amogha: Well, I can give him time tonight if he can come. Otherwise I can tell the radio people to come tonight. I have to telephone them and arrange it. Prabhupāda: [break] ...if people do not like, that is another thing. What is the wrong if I say, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."? If you don't chant, that is your choice. There is no difficulty. If you agree that "Swamiji asking me. We'll chant," you can chant. But if you don't do it, that is your business. The task it not difficult. Task is very easy. Even a child can do it. But if you are stubborn, "No, no, I will not do it," then what can be done? (?) Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro... You know this song, huh? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... You have got this cassette? Jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole. Devotee (1): I may have it in my briefcase. Yes. Prabhupāda: So He is canvassing, "Now get up. How you are remaining in ignorance still? You have got this human form of body; *still, you remain as cats and dogs. Why is that? This is spell of māyā. You get up." "No, I am very much... I cannot break out of this. Too much I am afflicted." Then he says, "I have got medicine." Enechi auṣadhi. "I have got the medicine. You take it." Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro lāgi', hari*-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi'. "You take it from Me, hari-nāma mahā-mantra." So this is our mission. We have got the medicine to awake the people from this ignorance. He doesn't know anything. He is busy only with his fifty years. Nowadays less still, we live, such rascaldom we are. "We have got the medicine. Now you take it." This is our canvassing, Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. If you don't agree, that is your business. That is your misfortune. The disease is there, and the remedy is also there. So we offer you the remedy free of charges, and if you don't take it, then it should be understood that you are so misfortunate, unfortunate. Amogha: He is thinking of the vox populi, but he forgets about himself. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: He is saying "I don't know if it's practical because they won't take," but he doesn't realize that he should take even if they don't take. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: I must go and make the flower garlands. (end) Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth Paramahaṁsa: Well he's a very..., actually he's a big man and therefore he's very busy. In their terms he's a big man. He had a lot of seminars yesterday taking him up late at night working. I'll send him something to read. [break] ...problem. As he sees it, the biggest problem is that the industrial civilization, the big companies and consumer society, are taking the natural resources at such a pace that they are causing pollution and they are causing in the future a great scarcity of certain products, and, in other words, he thinks they're ruining the earth. Śrutakīrti: He said, "irreparable damage." They'll never be able to again restore what they've taken. Paramahaṁsa: So he's very perplexed by the future, say, a hundred years from now, what will happen if we go on at the rate we're going, taking natural resources. Prabhupāda: Just like they are taking petrol. This is natural resources. They are taking continually. Paramahaṁsa: But he says the CSIRO, most of the people there are involved in researching how to exploit the natural resources more. So he's a little bit different because he's trying to present a clear warning that this is happening. But then again he doesn't have any potency to stop it. It seemed that when you were speaking to him he related bodily consciousness with the selfishness of the industrialists when they're exploiting natural resources like that. Prabhupāda: They are doing so many things. They are killing cows for their own benefit. So many animals they are killing. Birds. Śrutakīrti: Yeah, he was making a claim that he was against this because all these cows are in the central part of Australia and just by their walking they're causing the topsoil to become loosened and taken by the wind. So he was against all this mass slaughtering. But at the same time, he's eating meat. Also he was saying how everyone is interested in making the fast dollar, the... [break] Paramahaṁsa: The industrialists and technologists say that they will keep using and using and using, and when they run out they will invent something else to take the place. When they run out of oil then they will use sun energy or some other energy. And whenever they say that they're running out of something, they say, "Oh, we'll invent something, and we'll do something to arrange it." Prabhupāda: Why they are thinking of the future? And they do not think of themself that whether he was going to be a cat and dog. He is thinking of industrial resources future and not for himself. Śrutakīrti: It shows that it's a natural tendency to think about the future. Prabhupāda: Is there, certainly. Śrutakīrti: Yes. But because they are in ignorance they have to think of so many other things for the future, and they're not thinking of themselves. Prabhupāda: No, no, in future if you become a shrub like this, what you are going to do for that? This may be also your future. Now there are so many hells for different kinds of sinful activities. Everything is described. *Paramahaṁsa: I was reading in the Bhagavad*-gītā last night. In Chapter Two there was a verse where it says, "Of the existent, there is no cessation, and the nonexistent, there is no continuation," something like that. But in the purport it says that one can understand the Supreme by studying himself. What does that mean? By analytical study of oneself one can understand the Supreme. Prabhupāda: So you could not understand? You have got all propensities, different, the similar propensities are there in God. Because you are part and parcel of God, the chemical composition in drop of water from the sea is the same. In the sea it is in bigger quantity, and in the drop in smaller quantity. And therefore your composition you can study, and the same things are there. Therefore He is a person. He is person. *Śrutakīrti: That is sāṅkhya*-yoga? Prabhupāda: No. This is my interpretation. He is also creating; you are also creating. You can create a motorcar and He can create a huge, gigantic sun globe. The same process. As you are controlling the aeroplane by air condition or by controlling the air, similarly all these planets are there. It is by His plan it is moving with the air. Big, big planets, there is no question of gravitation. That is nonsense. It is by His arrangement it is moving in the air. Just like big, big cloud containing millions of tons of water floating in the air. How it is being done? Eh? Millions of tons of water are floating in the air. That we see daily. So similarly, all these planets are floating by His arrangement. Not only floating. Making center that polestar, all the planets are moving around it, even the sun. So it is by His arrangement. Śrutakīrti: So the sun is the center or the polestar? Prabhupāda: Polestar. Śrutakīrti: Is the center of the universe. Prabhupāda: Not in the center. Sun is in the center, the polestar in the extreme north. [break] Śrutakīrti: You were saying yesterday how foolish it is to think that God is creating planets without putting any life on them. The scientists are saying there is no life on any planet. Then why would He create a planet unless there was life on it? *Prabhupāda: All rubbish theory. Life is mentioned Bhagavad*-gītā, sarva-gaḥ: "everywhere." And why these rascals say there is no life? Paramahaṁsa: They want to see with telescope. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, this telescope. That is their defect. They do not admit the imperfection of the senses. What we calculated? How many billions? Śrutakīrti: To the sun? Prabhupāda: No, no, the length and breadth. Śrutakīrti: Oh, it is four billion miles. Prabhupāda: Four billion miles. So how much the telescope can see? Can you see four billion miles? Eh? Where is the telescope? If you cannot see perfectly even ten miles, with telescope you can see, say, a hundred miles or something more, something, but can you see four billion miles? Śrutakīrti: No. Prabhupāda: Then? What is the use of this telescope? (pause) Nothing will be finished. God's resources are unlimited, but they will be finished. Making research, research, they will be finished. God's resources will not be finished, but they will be finished. Unnecessarily they have created necessities of life. In this way, in blind capacity, they... After fifty years where this big geographist is going? He does not know. And he is thinking what will happen hundred years. Śrutakīrti: He's thinking that in a few hundred years the resources will be used up. He doesn't... He's thinking the resources will be used up. Prabhupāda: But before that, you will be finished, so why you are anxious? Paramahaṁsa: He's worrying about the civilization. Prabhupāda: Civilization, but you will be finished. You will not take part in the civilization. You have no belief in the next birth. So why you are thinking like that? You will be finished, that's all. Why you are worried? Suppose I have come here for three weeks. If I simply think, "What will happen hundred years after I am in Australia?" What is my business? I will go away by three weeks. Why shall I bring so much thoughts about "What will happen, Australia, hundred years after"? You are going to be cats and dogs or something, or grass or anything else. But you will be finished. Then why you are anxious for Australia? Paramahaṁsa: This is my country. Prabhupāda: What is your country? You will be kicked out after some years, that's all. Where is your country? You cannot stay in your country. First of all you make sure that it is country. Where is your country? I have come here for three weeks. Shall I consider it is my country? Paramahaṁsa: Your country is India; our country is Australia. *Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere, I come here for three weeks or some three years or some three hundred years. What are these in comparison to the eternal time? So why I am thinking like that, "my country, your country, this country"? Everyone will be kicked out: "Get out." You country will stay here permanently. This is called fourth*-class man. Śrutakīrti: It is like that woman you speak about. She goes into the marketplace: "How will I feed all these men?" (laughs) *Prabhupāda: Only she is anxious: "Oh, so many men. Where shall I keep them? Where shall I give them food?" And in the evening her son brought him (her)*-everything is finished. Everything is finished by the evening. Nobody in the market. And she was very much anxious "How to feed them? How to keep them?" It is like that. Paramahaṁsa: But even if we can't stay here, we all have to die, our sons and their sons, if we do something now, then maybe they won't have to suffer so much in the future. Prabhupāda: So why you are thinking of your son's future, your grandson's... Why don't you think of your future? Paramahaṁsa: It makes me happy to think that they'll be happy. Prabhupāda: That is madness. That is madness. Paramahaṁsa: If I get insurance policy then they will have some money after I go... *Prabhupāda: No, no, that is natural, that you think of future. But the foolishness is you don't think of your future. That is foolishness. This is natural. Because every living entity is eternal, therefore he has future. But for himself he is thinking, "There is no life, next." And he is thinking of the life which will come as his grandson or son, what will be their future. And he is blind about the own future. This is fourth-class man. Suppose some danger is coming. So shall I take care of you: "How you will be saved? How you will be saved?" How I will be saved*-that is my first business. That he does not know. There have been many cases. There is all of a sudden fire. The man has left everything, and his baby was there. He was crying, "Oh, I have left my..." The natural tendency-"First of all save me." Self preservation is the first law of nature. So why did he forget about his baby? Now, when he comes out, he is thinking about baby. This is natural, that he does not think about himself; he is thinking about future generation. Amogha: So he should first save himself, then think about how to save others. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all he must know what will actually saving. That he does not know. He is thinking of his country. Suppose next birth he becomes a cow and his countrymen will send him to the slaughterhouse. So what is the use of having your country? The same country, the national... The cow is also national, you are also national, but the law is the cow is to be sent to the slaughterhouse. Therefore they have been all described as mūḍhāḥ, rascals, only rascals. Except a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, all persons are rascals. Do you admit or not? Paramahaṁsa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is authoritative statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So these classes of men do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he comes within these categories. This is a plain description if we believe in Bhagavad*-gītā. All rascals. Paramahaṁsa: But he would say, "There are many people also like me who... We don't harm anybody. We just live our own life, and..." *Prabhupāda: But you harm yourself. Because you are a rascal you do not know what is your future. You do not harm others, but you are harming yourself. You do not know what you are and how you are harming yourself. You are such a rascal. You pose to be that you do not make any harm to anyone, but you are doing harm to yourself. Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. You do not know what is the harm to yourself. You are such a fool. So what is the use of...? Nobody can do any harm to anyone. Everything is going on nature's law. But you are doing yourself harm for your interest. You are such a fool. Paramahaṁsa: But I feel pretty happy. Everything seems to be... I have a good job. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, the ass also feels happy, dog also feels happy, so you are like ass, dog, like that. They also feel happy. Paramahaṁsa: They don't go to cinema. Prabhupāda: This is not... There are many living entities in the cinema. There are ants, the lizards, rats. So what is the use of being in cinema? So you are also one of them, that's all. There are no rats in the cinema house? (laughter) *Amogha: At the drive*-ins they also have birds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: But man has been progressing for so many years. Surely they can't all be bad. *Prabhupāda: They are not progressing. They are rascals. What their meaning of progressing, these fourth*-class men? That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict. What progress? If you have made progress, then you are thinking, "What will happen, future?" Where is your progress? You rest assured that "We have made so much progress. Now there will be no more problem." So why you have engaged so many so-called rascals again to solve the problems? Where is your advancement? If you are full of anxiety, then where is your happiness? Is anyone who is full of anxiety he is happy? Is he happy? Paramahaṁsa: Well, not... But if he takes some intoxicant or he goes to cinema, then he feels better. Prabhupāda: You are adding rascal upon rascal. (laughs) They do not know. They are fools. They are rascals. The same philosophy: if you have got enemy in the front you close your eyes and he kills you. The rabbit, they do that. As soon as they find some big animal, they close. Amogha: Ostriches stick their head in a hole in the ground. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: But there must be some progress because so many are joining the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. *Prabhupāda: They are making real advancement. Bhava*-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. Their these material anxieties will be over. They are making advancement. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa their dirty heart will be cleansed, and as soon as it is fully cleansed, the problems of material existence will be over. No more anxiety. Paramahaṁsa: They seem happy, but... The devotees of Kṛṣṇa seem happy, but they don't do much practical work. They always sing and dance and ask for some money. But they don't work any practical thing. We're doing so many practical things. Prabhupāda: Dancing is not working? And writing book is not working? Selling book is not working? What is working then? Hm? Like monkey jumping? Yes? That is working? Amogha: But we are helping people practically like in the hospital or the alcoholics... Prabhupāda: No, what... How you are helping? Do you think if one goes to hospital he will not die? And how you are helping? You are thinking you are helping. Amogha: But he lives longer. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. How long you will live? When the time of death comes, you will not live longer even by a moment. When a man is going to die, his life is finished. Can your injection, medicine, give one minute's life more? Is there any medicine? Amogha: Well, there seems to be. Prabhupāda: No... Amogha: Sometimes when they give medicine they live longer. Paramahaṁsa: They say that by perfecting heart transplant they may make people live... *Prabhupāda: They may say, they... Because we take them as rascals, why shall I take their words? We should consider them a rascals, that's all. (someone shouts nastily in background*-Prabhupāda barks at them) (laughter) Another rascal. He is enjoying life. So the world is full of rascals. We must be very much pessimistic, not at all optimistic of this world. Unless you become pessimistic, you will not be able to go back to home. If you have little attraction for this world-"It is good"-then you have to remain here. Yes. Kṛṣṇa is so strict. Paramahaṁsa: But Jesus said: "Love thy brother as thyself." So if we love our brother... Prabhupāda: That we are loving. We are giving Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is loving, real loving. We are giving him eternal life, eternal bliss. Unless we love them, why we are taking so much trouble? The preacher must love the people. Otherwise why he is taking? He can do it for himself at home. Why he is taking so much trouble? Why in eighty years old I have come here if I do not love? So who can love better than a preacher? He loves even the animals. Therefore they are preaching, "Don't take meat." Do they love the animals, rascals? They are eating, and they love their country, that's all. Nobody loves. It is simply sense gratification. If somebody loves, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. All rascals. They are after their own sense gratification, and they will put a signboard, "I love everyone." This is their business. And fools are accepting, "Oh, this man is very philanthropic." He does not love any man. He loves only senses. That's all. The servant of the senses, that's all. Amogha: He was a bad one, but some of them are good. Prabhupāda: No, no, some... Everyone is bad. The man who is talking, he is also bad man. Everyone is bad man. Here there is no good man. Do you think in the prison house any good men go there? All criminals. So anyone who has come in this material world, he is a criminal. Therefore he is punished by this material body, simply suffering. Why you have covered? Because this body cannot tolerate this cold. So the body means suffering, material body. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody is enjoying. (It) is a wrong idea. He is thinking... That is called māyā. He is suffering, but he is thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called māyā. Paramahaṁsa: But the schoolteachers, and the church leaders, and my parents, and grandparents, they all seem to think that it's all right what we're doing, so... *Prabhupāda: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. "One who cannot save me from the impending danger of birth, death, old age, and disease, he is not my father, he is not my teacher, he is not my guru, he is not my kinsman, he is not my wife, he is not my husband." So many list. So who has got this knowledge, how to save one from the cycle of birth, death, and old age? It is only we, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. We are teaching. Stop your this cycle of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. Come to eternal life and blissful life. So we are the only friends. All are enemies even in the shape of friend or father or teacher-enemies. They do not know the art. Amogha: But if what you say is true, why don't more people know about it? There are so many teachers. There are spiritual teachers and... Prabhupāda: They will not know. That... These rascals say, "No, it will not be accepted." Just like yesterday they came, all the psychiatrists. As soon as we prescribed that "This is the prescription," they said, "Oh, it is impractical." I say that "Send your patients here. We shall make him instantly drugless." They will not accept it. "Oh, why not at home?" At home? And he will remain with the drug addict, and he will become drugless. Is it possible? The surrounding men, all drug addicts, and he will become drugless. How it is possible? Amogha: Actually their hospital is a society where all the drug addicts get together. Devotee (2): For a free cup of tea. *Prabhupāda: Good society. The group... We gave reference from Bhagavad*-gītā, saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. Association is required. Otherwise why we are opening so many centers? Just to give them the facility of association. These men are big rascals. The world is full of rascals, and the so-called leaders, they are big rascals, that's all. They cannot make any solution. Simply take salary. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. They are big rascals, and the small rascals accept them as leader. That's all. Amogha: That is vox populi of the rascals. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The whole world is rascal. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. Take it for granted. This is the test. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know what is his self-interest. He is simply enamored by the external energy and trying to make adjustment of things. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... He is a rascal, and his leader is also rascal. Te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. These rascals do not know they are bound up, hands and legs, by the laws of nature, and they are making solution, problem. Just like this geographer is making solution and all of a sudden will die. And then another rascal will come into that place to make solution. The problem will remain, and they will come and go. They will come and go. Napoleon came for solution, Hitler came for solution, Gandhi came for solution, but when Napoleon was offered a horse's urine instead of water, he could not make any solution. Amogha: But maybe by our study... We are all imperfect, but if we keep compiling the information, then after so many years they will have all the information... Prabhupāda: They... You do not take the right information. Right information is with us. That you refuse to take. Your information is zero. Compiling of zeros does not make any value. It is all zero. Take information from us. Then it will be beneficial. You are taking information from all universe except our this solid information given by Kṛṣṇa. That is your policy. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. You have read this verse? "The mūḍha, rascal, he does not know the ultimate background is I am." That he does not know. What is the use of his information? And in the *Vedas* it is said yam eva viditvā sarvam idam... There is a mantra, that "Only understanding Kṛṣṇa, you understand everything." Yam eva viditvā sarvam idaṁ vedituṁ bhavanti. Amogha: But how can we understand all this science and technology just by understanding Kṛṣṇa, just by one book? Prabhupāda: Not one book. You cannot read them throughout your whole life, there are so many books. Amogha: I don't think they have any argument. Prabhupāda: What argument? They are fools, rascals. What argument? Amogha: Yesterday they did not know what to say. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody could say against me. Maunaṁ śamyati labdhaḥ.(?) If they remain silent, that means they have accepted. I charge you that "You are thief," and if you don't protest, then you are thief. If you are not thief, immediately you will: "How you say? Why you have said?" There will be fight. But if you remains silent, that proves that you are thief. So they could not give us any counterargument. Therefore they accepted. Amogha: Their biggest problem is that there isn't any counterargument. Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as I told them, "Who is there without father?" Amogha: Then they tried a little bit. They said, "Everyone has a father, so who's God's father?" Prabhupāda: That I answered, that "That is God." Amogha: Then they were defeated. Prabhupāda: God means that without father, He can, He will exist. That is God. That is the difference between you and God. Amogha: How can darkness argue with the sunlight? Their trying to argue is just like darkness trying to argue with the sunlight. Prabhupāda: And that Burmese said, "We don't believe in God." And you don't believe in God. You don't... Why you believe Lord Buddha? He is God. Amogha: Then he said, "But there is no God mentioned in Buddhism. There is nirvāṇa." Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you worship Buddha. Why? Amogha: Because he spoke about nirvāṇa. In Burma many people are Buddhist. They say they are Buddhist. Prabhupāda: Till now, 2,600 years past from the Buddhist community, from other groups and Arabia, very big religionist or philosophers has come. They are all in darkness. It was for the time being. The Buddhist religion was for the time. Atheist class men... (end) Morning Walk -- May 18, 1975, Perth Prabhupāda: Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." They killed Christ. This is the position. Amogha: When Buddha came, did most people follow Him? Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: And they stopped their (indistinct). *Prabhupāda: Yes. In their religion animal*-killing is strictly forbidden. Amogha: Did Śaṅkara, did he physically force the Buddhists out of India, by force? Prabhupāda: No. Amogha: Or just teaching. Prabhupāda: By argument, by teaching. [break] Just see how nice flower is coming from the sand. And they say there is no vegetation. What is the difference between this sand and that sand? Sand is sand. Huh? How they are coming? Wherefrom they are getting nourishment? If there no possibility of living being, who is coming to water it? Nobody is coming. In this place, flower, it is a good as the flower growing on the land. But they are growing in the sand, you see. You see actually in the sand things are coming out, and one rascal will say, "No, there is no life." We have to believe it? Even it is full of sand and dust. Here we see dust and sand produce life, so why shall I believe these rascals about sand? What is the difference between that sand and this sand? Amogha: Some scientists admit there is life there, there may be life... Prabhupāda: No, no, these scientists are all rascals; first of all take it, don't believe it. "Some scientists say"; then who is real scientist? This scientist says there is no life, another scientist says there may be, then who is right, hm? Amogha: They have to go and see. (laughs) But they don't see any signs of civilization or buildings, so they say it may be plant life, but they don't see anything... Prabhupāda: First of all whether you have gone there. That is our charge, "You have not gone there." Amogha: That's what we are trying to do. In a few years we will find out. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They might have gone to some hellish planet, where there is only sand, only, and very hot, and the culprit is pushed through that deserted place to the Yamarāja. And before going to Yamarāja he has to suffer so much. There are places, copperlike, you see. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So hot, and the criminal has to go on that copper land. There are mentioned for many millions of miles simply copper, and one has to pass through that to Yamarāja. So, they might have gone to some such place, not to the moon planet, who is the source of vegetation even throughout the whole universe*-and in his own planet there is no vegetation. Now I am sure they have not gone to moon planet. How they will go? It is beyond the sun. I was protesting that they have not gone; now I am convinced that they have not gone. The Russian scientists and the American scientists joined on the platform, "Don't expose me, I don't expose you." (laughter) (Bengali) "You have to do your business and same I have to do my business. Let us support one another." In all other case, they are inimical, and the scientific field they are friends. That means that if a scientist, another scientist, opposes me, then my attempt will be futile, so let us don't do it. Śrutakīrti: You don't expose me, and I won't expose you. Prabhupāda: Because we are doing business, we are getting money from these rascal government, so if you expose me, then I will not get money, and if I expose you, you will not get money. Let us remain together and let them remain fools. That's all. This is it. If a common man like me can understand the whole policy, how the scientist will not understand? But they have made a compromise that "Don't expose me, I'll not expose you, and let us take money from the government." This is going on. Amogha: So the big demons are cheating the small demons, but they're all demons. *Prabhupāda: The big animal eats the small animal. But the big animal, because he's big, does it mean that he's not animal? He's also animal. The tiger eats a dog. Does that mean the tiger is not animal? The dog is animal, the tiger is also. Animal, he is god who knows how to live without these animals*-that is human life. So, why shall I eat animals? I shall eat fruits, I shall eat vegetables, I shall eat nice food grains, I shall drink milk. That is human. Why shall I eat animals' blood and flesh? "No, it is very tasteful." (laughter) So what is the difference between you and dog? Amogha: They don't know how to cook, the dogs. Prabhupāda: Well, nature has made them like that. The human beings, they can utilize the land, they can produce so many nice foodstuffs. That is human society. What is this society? They are living in big, big skyscraper building, and for their food the slaughterhouse killing, and they are eating. Is that human civilization? All third class, fourth class men. Amogha: If they would only listen, they will be defenseless, but they don't listen much. Prabhupāda: Yes, they go away, "My time is over." (laughs) Amogha: Yes. "I am busy. I must go." Prabhupāda: His energy is over. Not time is over, but his energy is over. He see that "We cannot argue with this man." Śrutakīrti: He'll not give us a chance. [break] (speaking to another devotee) Wouldn't it be better if you make his breakfast? Devotee: Certainly. Prabhupāda: I've talked with many psychiatric scientists in Los Angeles. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: All of them (indistinct). Even our own scientist. Amogha: (laughs) Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore he is now writing books. He is afraid of writing these such books, because his brother scientists may not like it. Devotee: Oh. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: It is like the Russians and the Americans. He doesn't want to offend the other scientists. (laughs) Prabhupāda: If the other scientists condemn him, then he will not get service. Śrutakīrti: That's right. Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances) *Prabhupāda: You can write one essay, I'll give you some hints. Bring your notebook and Bhagavad*-gītā also. The defect of human society is that..., present human society is that there is no high-class men. The Bhagavad-gītā says, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase [Bg. 2.11]. Amogha: Aśocam? Prabhupāda: Aśocyān Amogha: Aśocyān. Is that Chapter Sixteen? Prabhupāda: No, second. *Amogha: A*-s-a-o? A-s-a-u? *Prabhupāda: A-ś*-o. Amogha: Aśocyān anvaśocas tvam [Bg. 2.11]. Hm. Two, eleven. Prabhupāda: What is it? Amogha: (reads Sanskrit and translation to Bg. 2.11) Prabhupāda: So, these classes of men are now predominant. Amogha: They are what? Śrutakīrti: Predominant. Amogha: Predominant. *Prabhupāda: Yes. They are taking care only of this body which is-dead or alive*-it is not subject matter of seriousness. I shall tell you later on. Amogha: Excuse me. Prabhupāda: I'll tell you later on. Amogha: Okay. Prabhupāda: (taking prasādam) (indistinct) But it has got some arrangement, it does not fall down. Amogha: Yeah, well they accept that also. They say only if there is no such arrangement, then it will fall down. Prabhupāda: That means conditional. And who makes that condition? That means ultimately you have to accept the existence of God. Śrutakīrti: Just like they say the moon does not go away because the earth is attracting it. Prabhupāda: Oh. What is earth? (laughs) All bogus. Amogha: But if we tell that that there is no law of gravity, they will say that why is it that if you throw up a ball then it comes down? Prabhupāda: It comes down, heavy, then it comes down, that's all. (laughs) Amogha: But that heaviness they say is gravity. Prabhupāda: You can call anything. (laughs) But if Kṛṣṇa desires, a football may not fall. Just like so many planets, they are carried up by the air. All these planets are moving only by the air. So the heavy land, heavy cloud is carried by the air. It is a question of adjustment of air, not the law of gravity. Now the whole universal planetary system are floating and rotating round the polestar. Is it law of gravity, they are rotating? It is the arrangement of the air, by the air it is up. Just like there is dust storm, so many are floating in the air. There is no question of law of gravity; it is the air. And the who is controlling the air? That is Supreme Personality. Just like in Darwin, the motor buses were floating by the air. It was a great storm there? Amogha: Yes, hurricane. Prabhupāda: Huh? Hurricane? Amogha: On Christmas day. *Prabhupāda: Motor buses were floating. Is that law of gravity? Air, different adjustment of air. If Kṛṣṇa desires, simply by air this whole city will be devastated. The other day we saw so many trees fell from (New?) Kurukṣetra. All trees and houses will be smashed within half an hour if some hurricane is sent. Poking nose in the affairs of God. They'll simply try to prove that there is no God. This is their attempt. And they say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, machine. The authority is God, Kṛṣṇa. So I have given the right name, fourth*-class men, not even third class. All fourth class. Śūdra. Śūdra and less than śūdra. This is the whole pack of population at the present moment. First-class man, his definition is there: śama, dama, tapa, śaucam, titikṣā, ārjavam, jñāna, vijñāna, āstikyam. That is first-class. They are snatching a motorcar mechanic as first class. Because he knows some mechanical arrangement how to do it, he is first class. Such things are being done by the demons. Machine or wonderful building, these are done by the demons. Now to begin? Time will come(?)? Śrutakīrti: You wanted to shave your head? Yeah? Prabhupāda: Ah, there is time? *Śrutakīrti: Yeah, we are leaving at twelve*-thirty. So we have two hours. That is sufficient. *Prabhupāda: Hm. The world is full of rascals and fourth*-class men. That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict. A human being does not know God, he's no better than dog. He is dog. Who knows God? There are so many scientists, philosophers, now everywhere. And they are discussing on sex philosophy, homosex philosophy, Darwin's theory. All third class, fourth class, they are controlling. Now they are gradually coming to chaotic condition, and their problems, engage so many big, big officials how to solve. Oh, why you created problem, first of all? You third-class, fourth-class men, you have created problem, and now we are trying to make solution-another problem. And because you are the same fourth-class men, how you can make a solution? You have created the problems. The man who creates problems, can he make solution? So you are the same fourth-class man, how you can make a solution? Bring first-class man. But there are no first-class men. All rogues and rascals. Things are becoming bad to worse, and still they'll claim, "We are first class." *Amogha: They are all rascals, so the best rascal they say he is first*-class. First-class rascal. Prabhupāda: That I was explaining, big animal and small animal. Cats and dogs praising one lion. Amogha: Hm. Prabhupāda: A lion is also an animal. But they are thinking, "Oh, one lion." But we are thinking that it is also animal. The cats and dogs, they are thinking, "Oh, lion is so big, so powerful." But human being is thinking this is also an animal, big animal. Is it not? (laughs) Tell them. Cats and dogs may praise some another animal, tiger and... But are the tigers other than animal? He is also animal. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] *Prabhupāda: When I was saying that we are creating first*-class men. So are you, are you claiming that you are first-class? Amogha: Yes, he was asking us. Yes, he said, "Have you become?" (laughter) Prabhupāda: What did you say? Amogha: I said we are becoming. Yes, we can see. (offers obeisances) (end) Morning Walk -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne Amogha: ...purports. And that purport that you gave is very, very... Prabhupāda: Basic. Amogha: Yeah. It explains it very clearly. That will clear up any misconception. Prabhupāda: That law of gravity is a bogus theory. The... Sixteen hundred thousand miles... Sixteen hundred thousand miles below the sun is the Rāhu. They are going there. Amogha: Rāhu. Seems like all the planets, they have that space interval of sixteen hundred thousand miles. Most of the sun... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Amogha: ...and then the moon and Venus. That two hundred thousand yojanas. Prabhupāda: When the Rāhu happens to be between the two planets, sun and moon, there is eclipse. Amogha: When the orbits intercross. Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Ketu is below Rāhu? Prabhupāda: Ketu is not mentioned there. Amogha: Oh. [break] Prabhupāda: ...another part of Rāhu. Amogha: Hm. Prabhupāda: Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, here is a property for sale. Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Nice property. [break] ...only due to difference of time it appears different. [break] ...Vedic instruction. In the spiritual world or the material world the varieties are the same, but the spiritual world is light, and the material world is darkness. Same varieties, there also you will find the same man, woman, or their dealings, love, or gardens, everything you will... Like this, this is only imitation. So if you want to be happy, go there. Tamaso mā. This is the Vedic instruction. Don't remain in this dark region. Jyotir gama. Jyoti means light. Go there. That is the prerogative of the human form of life. Tamaso mā jyotir gama. [break] Madhudviṣa: They take great trouble to bring trees from all over the different parts of the world to put in the botanical gardens. *Prabhupāda: Very nice gardens. Hardly there is such nice botanical gardens in the world. I have seen many botanical... Very nice. [break] This swan is black and the crow is black, but crow's place is different, their place is different, although they are birds. The crows will enjoy a filthy place where all refuses are thrown. I don't think in your country there is many crows. In India, you've seen, all nasty place, that is visited by the crows. It is stated in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit, tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham [SB 1.5.10]. The literature which does not describe Kṛṣṇa, that is the place for the crows. There is sex literature, they're enjoyed by the crows, and this Bhāgavatam is enjoyed by the swans. That is the difference. Crow's literature and swan's literature, paramahaṁsa. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaṁ vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. Everyone in this material world, they're envious. Their business is to become envious. I am envious of you, you are envious of me. This is material world. And the paramahaṁsas, Vaiṣṇava, they're kind, they're merciful. "Ah, this fallen soul is suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa. Let us preach." That is the difference. The envious and the nonenvious. That is paramahaṁsa. Titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ [SB 3.25.21]. They are not only not envious, but they're merciful. They'll suffer so many troubles for their preaching work, still they'll do that. Titikṣava. A preacher has to suffer so many inconvenience. You had to suffer in here? Madhudviṣa: Where? Prabhupāda: In Australia. Madhudviṣa: Yes, we had some suffering. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Now you have seen that letter? We have been permitted by the federal government to sell our books in the airport. Madhudviṣa: Yes, that is a major breakthrough. *Prabhupāda: The judge might have seen our literature, "It is such a nice literature they are selling, they must be given permission." [break] No husband, no children, one dog. (laughter) Just see. Children*-contraceptive. And dog-welcome. Woman: Good morning. Prabhupāda: Good morning. Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: For children*-kill them. This is Kali-yuga. They are killing their own children and patting a dog. Just see how much fallen they are, and they're passing as civilized. Fourth class. Complaining of overpopulation, and the dog gives birth at a time half a dozen-there is no overpopulation, welcome; we shall maintain them. Huh? They're giving twice in a year, or once in a, even once in a year, that is no overpopulation. A man gives one or two birth, it is overpopulation. Formerly they are begetting hundred children. At that time there was no complaint of overpopulation. At that time, the description in the history is kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ [SB 1.10.4]. On account of good rains, the earth used to produce immense necessities of life. Just like this portion is maintained with sufficient water, there is green everywhere. So if there is sufficient rain, everywhere you can do. Where is the question of overpopulation? [break] ...population you work for growing food. No. Some of them are becoming hippies, no work. And some of them are working for manufacturing tire tube, tools, that's all. Where is food? Still there is food, but they'll not work for this, for growing food. Madhudviṣa: They have run one survey... Prabhupāda: Hm. Madhudviṣa: ...and they have found out that the people of Australia spend so much money on feeding their pets that two hundred thousand people per year could be fed with the money that is used to feed the pets. Prabhupāda: Just see. Devotee: What is the population of Australia? Madhudviṣa: Two hundred thousand people a year. Prabhupāda: If they spend money for the poor country, they'll not do that. Sinful man is given this form of tea(?), a tree. So, but nature is so nice that even the sinful living entities can beautify. How properly utilized. But they have no fruits and flowers. *Madhudviṣa: No. Kali*-yuga trees. [break] Prabhupāda: ...are available here? No. Devotee: Popper? Yes. Prabhupāda: Indian store here? No. Devotee: Indian import store? Madhudviṣa: Yes. Indian import store they have. We have pāpadams. *Prabhupāda: Take the ḍāl, urad ḍāl, and make it powder like flour, and knead it with oil. And give masalā and then make like cāpāṭi. And when it is dry it is pāpad. It is not difficult. Add little soda*-bicarb. Madhudviṣa: Make it stiff. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: Hm. Prabhupāda: Powder ḍāl, then I can show you how to do it. Madhudviṣa: Powder ḍāl. We can put the ḍāl in a grinder... Prabhupāda: Hm. Madhudviṣa: ...and grind it up. Prabhupāda: Now it is not (indistinct). The widows, because widows, there is no widow marriage. So widows, they earn their livelihood by making pāpad and guri. They prepare at home guri, pāpad, and sell and make their livelihood. Madhudviṣa: : You have said that you have nullified the law of gravity, but how can we explain that everything is falling down? *Prabhupāda: Yes, the green leaves not falling down*-the dry leaves falling down, under certain condition. So it is not the law of gravitation. Why the green leaves does not fall down? Only the rejected things are falling. The rejected, you also throw away, so nature is throwing away. Where is the question of gravity? Madhudviṣa: When they go up in the space ship there is such a force holding the rocket ship down, they must have... Prabhupāda: That is everything. Everything, everything will fall down on the ground, but the controlling power is the air. If the air is adjusted, then it will not fall down. Madhudviṣa: That's why when they go into outer space they become weightless, they can float without any airplane. Prabhupāda: That, what they're doing (indistinct). But we see that if you can make adjustment in the air, just like we see the heavy cloud bearing many million tons of water, they do not fall down, they float. Where is the law of gravity? Amogha: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. You also give that example of those big birds. Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big birds, they carry elephant. Madhudviṣa: We have not seen such a bird. (devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: What you have seen? You have seen your father and mother, that's all. What you have seen? You are still in the womb of your mother. What you you have seen? You can simply falsely speculate, that's all. What you have seen? Are you seeing the stars now? Why you are not seeing? The stars are there, why you are not seeing? Madhudviṣa: My eyes are not good enough. *Prabhupāda: Therefore if you have got imperfect eyes, what you can see? First of all you admit that you have got imperfect eyes. Then what you can see with your imperfect eyes? If you are a blind man, what is the use of telling, "I do not see." You are blind man, what you can see? First of all you admit that you are blind man, then talk of seeing. Therefore Vedic literature... Śāstra*-cakṣus. You should see through śāstra, not your these blind eyes. Śāstra says there is Kṛṣṇa, He is doing like that. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛk... You should see like that. What you see with your eyes? Why you are so proud of your eyes? Blind eyes. That is submission. Do you see who is your father? Why do you accept by the recommendation of the mother that "Here is your father." Do you see who is your father? Then what is the use of telling, "I want to see"? What you can see? You have to take the authority of the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father," that's all. You cannot say, "I have not seen that he is my father." Can you say? So there is no value of this statement, "I do not see" or "We cannot see." Madhudviṣa: In other books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says things and then in time you can see them, you can substantiate them. But some of the descriptions in the *Bhāgavatam* are so fantastic that people, I mean, its very difficult for people to even... *Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to believe only. You have to accept what Bhāgavata says. That is your business. Not to try to make an experiment. That is not possible. It is already experimented, and the mature knowledge is stated there. You have to accept, that's all. Śruti*-pramāṇa. Śruti means Vedas. Evidence... Vedic literature there are three kinds of evidences. The most powerful evidence is śruti. If it is stated in the Vedas, that is first-class evidence. Therefore whatever we say, immediately quote some Vedic version, that is the way of understanding. Kṛṣṇa says, Vyāsadeva says, Parāśara says, that's all. We don't require much proof. This is the first-class proof, when you find the statement corroborated by the Vedas. And śruti, smṛti. Smṛti means literature written according to the Vedic version. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi [Brs. 1.2.101]. Purāṇādi is itihāsa, history. And another pramāṇa is anumāna. And anumāna means "by right person." Thinking that it may be like this, anumāna. That is called anumāna. Madhudviṣa: Would that be like the songs written by Bhaktivinoda and things like that? Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that the songs written by the great ācāryas are expansions of the holy name. Could you explain that? Prabhupāda: What is that? Madhudviṣa: The songs written by the great ācāryas are said to be expansions of the holy name. Prabhupāda: Yes, glorify. Trees live for thousands of years, five thousand, six thousand. Fig tree and banyan tree, they do not die. Madhudviṣa: They must be especially sinful. They get five thousand years as a tree. Prabhupāda: No, they are most pious. Because you want to live more by science, so they are also living more years. What is the use of such living, like tree? Therefore Bhāgavata says taravo kiṁ na jīvanti. You are trying to live more years by scientific advancement, but do the trees not live for many, many years? What you will gain by that? Suppose you live for three thousand years, what you will gain if you remain ignorant? Better live for a few years and understand that this material world is worse, I have to go to the spiritual world and meet Kṛṣṇa. That knowledge will help you. You live for ten years, but get this knowledge, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect life. And what is the use of living like this tree for many thousands of years without any knowledge? [break] ...cars, they have come to botanical garden? No. Madhudviṣa: No, they go, they park their cars here and they walk into town. Prabhupāda: Ah. Why? Madhudviṣa: They don't like to pay money for parking space. They park out here and walk into their different office buildings. [break] Prabhupāda: It is said (Bengali). A villager, very poor man, he says, "I am very poor man. I live on eating the grasshoppers." Madhudviṣa: Grasshoppers. Prabhupāda: Yes. "I have no money. But when I go to pass stool, I ride on a horse." They cannot pay parking fare, but still they keep a carriage. (laughs) (Bengali). Because the villagers go to the field for passing stool, so this gariba man, this poor man, goes on a horse. Leaves can be also utilized as fire, but they do not know that. In India they collect, poor man, and use as fuel, they cook food. All this dry twigs and this, that can be used as fuel, at the same time the ground will be cleansed. Madhudviṣa: In India there is no problem with litter. There is no litter problem. No problem about paper and things thrown around because everything that is thrown in the street is immediately taken up by some form of beggar or some form of animal. *Prabhupāda: Municipal sweeper also. [break] Similarly we can go to the place where there is simply pleasing atmosphere. Simply we have to become purified. That is required. But they don't want to be purified, they want to become more entangled in sinful life, illicit sex, meat*-eating. That they do not know that "I am entangling myself. Instead of being purified, I am becoming more and more entangled." This is ignorance. [break] ...criticize us, shaven-headed. They don't criticize long hairs, but shaven-headed. Just see. If you don't criticize the long hairs, why should criticize the shaven-headed? But they criticize us. So regularly they are going out? Madhudviṣa: Saṅkīrtana? Prabhupāda: Huh? Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is wanted. Live here very nicely and go back to home, back to Godhead. Why should you die like cats and dogs? Die like a human being and be freed from all these material anxieties. But their determination is that they must live in this hellish condition. They do not believe in the next life. If they believe in the next life, then it becomes horrible. They want to avoid this question. "No, no there is no life. Enjoy to the best capacity now." Enjoy. We do not say that don't enjoy, but enjoy so that you may not be implicated. There is no harm having big house, comfortable life, but keep Kṛṣṇa, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the wrong there? Hm? Madhudviṣa Mahārāja, if they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in these big, big skyscraper buildings, what is their loss? Madhudviṣa: Hm. Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no loss, still they will not do it. We don't say that don't live in the... We are living in nice building; *you also live in nice building. But see, do, see what we are doing there. Everyone can do it. Everyone can... That is Vedic culture, and everywhere Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa-śilā is worshiped. At least the higher castes, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya*-not the śūdras. Don't eat meat, don't have intoxication, no illicit sex, have Kṛṣṇa's picture, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, make nice preparation, where is the difficulty? Take this civilization. Devotee: Many karmīs think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you are born and then you die and that is the finish. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Many karmīs think that you are born and then you die and then finish. Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. You are born a child, then you get a youthful body, where you are finished? Does it mean that when the childish body is finished, the soul is also finished? Why he remembers, "Oh I was a child like this." This is simple argument. Where you are finished? Madhudviṣa: You can see the progression. When you are born you are small... Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: ...when you die, you are big. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: So that is progression. So how can they say that progression will stop? Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another foolishness to say like that, that with the body everything is finished. Where it is finished? [break] ...supposed to be educated, advanced in civilization, and this simple truth they cannot understand. Mūḍha. Where is finishing? Why you are trying to live for many years? Why don't you welcome death? (devotees begin kīrtana) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne Jesuit: ...am very pleased to meet you. Good of you to see me. Prabhupāda: Yes Jesuit: I've been in India just once. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jesuit: I was over in Calcutta. Prabhupāda: Oh. Calcutta. Where? Jesuit: Aaḥ, I was staying with Brother Andrew. I don't know whether you know him. He works with Mother Theresa in (?)pur over there. Prabhupāda: Near Chowringhee? There is a place called Chowringhee. Jesuit: Ah, no, it wasn't there. It was right in Calcutta itself. Prabhupāda: Oh. Right in Calcutta proper. Jesuit: Yes. Right in Calcutta. And he was an Australian Jesuit who founded an order of Brothers to work over there with Mother Theresa. So he used to work near there. And, er, how long are you staying out here in Australia? Prabhupāda: Very nice. Jesuit: You're finding it very nice. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Would you like to drink water? Jesuit: No thank you. How many hours of prayer a day do, say, the men here do? *Prabhupāda: To worship God, we have got nine processes. One is to hear about God and to speak about God-śravaṇaṁ kīrtanam. Then, memorizing God's activities. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Then worshiping his feet-just like we offer flower to the feet. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanam. Then Deity worship, just like we are doing in the temple, Deity worship. Then vandanam, offering prayers, just like you do in the church. Vandanam, dāsyam, to engage oneself always in the service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam. Sakhyam*-to taking as the best friend, considering God as the best friend. Jesuit: Consider God as? Prabhupāda: Best friend. Jesuit: Best friend. Prabhupāda: Just like Arjuna did. Arjuna worshiped God as friend, the best friend. God is the best friend for everyone. Jesuit: That's right. As John says, "God is love." *Prabhupāda: Yes. So, dāsyaṁ sakhyam ātma*-nivedanam, to offer everything to God-whatever I have got, my body, my money, my... everything. These are nine processes: Jesuit: And is everybody able to take the nine processes? Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not difficult. Jesuit: And do you have a, what I may call a training in contemplation, in which you get... Prabhupāda: That is smaraṇam. Memorizing. Thinking of God's activities. Jesuit: And, er, now in mysticism, Christian mysticism, Western mysticism, we have, say, the seven castles of St. Theresa of Avila, and we have a process of contemplation which we call infused, which God gives. Ordinary prayer, which anybody is able to make. Theresa would speak about the three castles, the first three castles. Prabhupāda: Three castle? Jesuit: Mm. In her book, Interior Mansions. But the real mystic prayer, well, is not given to everybody. Do you have... Do these men get trained in mystic prayer, contemplation? Prabhupāda: Mystic prayer means to think of God's activities. So that is smaraṇam. Jesuit: Smaraṇam. Not so much thinking of them as just being really in His presence and open to receive love and to be active. Do you know what I mean? Prabhupāda: Well, but bhakti is activity. Bhakti is not passive. Active. Just like hearing. It is activity. Similarly glorifying, this is activity. Smaraṇam, remembering, memorizing, that is activity. Jesuit: That is true. I see that. I think I sort of see a higher form of activity, where the senses really have taken over... Prabhupāda: Sense means activity. Jesuit: Intuition. Something higher than... Prabhupāda: Sense, when you use your sense, just like śravaṇam, hearing. So you use your sense. So this is activity. Jesuit: I see that. I understand that. Prabhupāda: You engage your ear. That means activity. I glorify, I speak, I engage my tongue in glorifying. That is activity. But as soon as there is sense activity, that is activity. Jesuit: Hmm. But to get that real stillness and quiet in which... Prabhupāda: No. Bhakti is not stillness. That is neutrality. Stillness means you stop your material activity. That is stillness. But your material activities, when you stop it, that is stillness. Jesuit: What is neutrality then? *Prabhupāda: That is neutrality, that neither spiritual nor material*-on the marginal stage. It is called simply realizing how God is great. That is neutrality. But real devotion begins when one understands that "God is so great, I am rendering my service to this world uselessly. Why not render service to God?" That is called dāsyam, beginning of active devotion. We are active in the material world. It is useless. Simply wasting time and making one entangled in repetition of birth and death. Material activities. This is called pravṛtti-mārga. Pravṛtti-mārga means sense enjoyment. And for sense enjoyment we have to accept so many different types of bodies, 8,400,000. Everyone is busy in sense enjoyment. The tiger is busy, the hog is busy, the dog is busy. The man also, if he becomes busy like tigers and hogs and dog, then he's going to become again the same species of life. Jesuit: When he reaches a higher state of activity, where he really loves all mankind, and he loves God... Prabhupāda: That is a kind of concoction. Jesuit: A kind of? Prabhupāda: Concoction, mental speculation. Why should you love mankind? Why not tiger? Jesuit: Because they are my brothers and sisters. Prabhupāda: So, brother and sister everyone loves? In the family, everyone loves his brother and sister. Does it mean that he's a very big man? Jesuit: Because there is a common father, God is the father of all... *Prabhupāda: Yes, common fellow, that is... (To devotee:) Who can read Bhagavad*-gītā? Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this verse: *Devotee: Vidyā*-vinaya-sampanne? Prabhupāda: Ha. Devotee: 5.18 Prabhupāda: (inaudible) Devotee: Prabhupāda: Mm. Just read again. Devotee: "The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision... Prabhupāda: Equal vision. Jesuit: Equal vision. Prabhupāda: Equal vision. Jesuit: What does that mean, equal vision? Prabhupāda: Equal vision means that I don't make any distinction between you and a dog. Jesuit: You make no distinction... Prabhupāda: No, this is spiritual vision because a paṇḍita, paṇḍita means learned man, his equal vision means he does not make any difference between the souls. The dog has got also soul and the learned scholar has got also soul. But the soul is covered by the dog's body, and here the soul is covered by the learned scholar's body. Actually both of them are souls, part and parcel of God. Jesuit: Would you think that their souls are of different value, the soul of the dog...? Prabhupāda: No, soul is of the same value. Jesuit: That I would find hard to accept. Prabhupāda: Huh? Jesuit: 'Cause as I would understand it, the soul of the man, of any man, is what we would call a spiritual soul, an immortal soul, and the soul of the animal is a principle of life, what the Greeks would call savvy(?), Aristotle would call psyche. But it is not of an immortal soul, therefore the man has higher value than the animal, the dog, something like that. Prabhupāda: No. What do you think? Just like a child, as a child's father, the child has got different soul and the father has got different soul? Jesuit: They've got different souls but they're both immortal, spiritual souls. Prabhupāda: Who is important, the child or the father? Jesuit: Both are important, both very important, both more important than... Prabhupāda: Which one? Which important? Devotee: He says both are equally important, but they're both more important than the dog. Prabhupāda: Important, so far important is concerned, both of them same. Jesuit: Same, they're different people aren't they? Prabhupāda: No, you say both of them equal. That means from the importance point of view, they're the same. You say both of them... Jesuit: The father and son, they're both the same importance. Guest: But they're different people, they're different souls... Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you say both of them important, on which platform? Jesuit: But when you say two things are important, you don't say they are they are of equal... Prabhupāda: Yes, life. Both of them are life. Jesuit: Both of them are life, a flower has life, a dog has life. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Jesuit: A man has life, for me that is a gradation of life, you've got to start... Prabhupāda: That gradation so far, just like there are gradation of motor cars. This is made by Ford, this is made by (indistinct), but the petrol is the same. Jesuit: The petrol is the same. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: Hm, even that can vary, but still... Prabhupāda: There is no still, petrol is the same. The machine Jesuit: They're all machines. Prabhupāda: Yes, the body is machine. Jesuit: All inferior (indistinct). Prabhupāda: Yes, body is matter. Jesuit: Body is matter. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: But a person is more than just matter. I'm more than matter. Prabhupāda: No, the person, just like... that is... If a man is sitting on a Rolls Royce car, he's thinking, "Very important." And a man sitting on some ordinary car, he's thinking, "I am poor." But as man, both of them (are) equal. Falsely, because he is sitting in a particular type of car, he is thinking, "I am bigger." Jesuit: Yes, I can see I agree with all that. *Prabhupāda: So the soul is the same. So there is no difference, mamaivāṁśo jīva*-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7], find out this verse. Soul is the part and parcel of the supreme soul, Supersoul, God. Jesuit: That is what I find hard to understand, your divine grace, that my soul, your soul is part of the supreme soul. Prabhupāda: Yes, their soul is part and parcel... Jesuit: I can't understand that because the supreme soul, God, the deity, is infinite. Prabhupāda: Yes, infinite, just like your, I'll let you know, just like the ocean and the drop of ocean. Jesuit: But even the... No, no, I can't say that either, the ocean is not infinite, the ocean is not... Prabhupāda: It is a comparison, a drop of water... He is infinite, God is infinite, we are finite. Jesuit: We are finite, God is infinite, therefore we cannot, added together, make up God. Prabhupāda: No. I don't say that. I don't say that. That finite and infinite, they... Finite is there, only "in" is not there. That is lacking. They, individual soul, (indistinct) we are not infinite. Jesuit: No, of course. Prabhupāda: But God is infinite, and I am finite. So the finite portion is common. The "in" is more in God, infinite. So similarly I am giving the example, just like a drop of ocean water, it contains the same chemical, you find salty, and the whole ocean also salty, but the ocean is big salt and this drop is a small particle. The salt is there. Jesuit: But I can't accept the example because the little drops of water which have salt and so on, all together coalesce to form the huge ocean but the ocean is still finite. It is not infinite. But you and I are finite... Prabhupāda: That is already explained. Jesuit: If we coalesce together, then that how many of us that there are... Prabhupāda: No, I'm not comparing that combined together that we shall be equal to God. I don't say that. Jesuit: I didn't follow you then. *Prabhupāda: I don't (indistinct) some men here, or the whole universal souls combined together, still they are finite. They're not infinite. Yes, multi*-billions of zeroes cannot make one. So I don't say that, but the quality is there very minutely. Jesuit: Imitation of the divine powers. Prabhupāda: Not imitation, actually we have got. Just like, another example, gold and a particle of gold, a small fragmentary, that will be called gold, but not the gold equal to the mine. Jesuit: No. *Prabhupāda: Therefore the philosophy is acintya*-bhedābheda, inconceivable one and different simultaneously. One in quality, but different in quantity. God's power... I have got some creative power, and God has got creative power. So the creative power is there. But God has created millions of the planets that floating in the air and we have created a 747 airplane, we want to take more credit than God. That is our foolishness. Jesuit: Oh, I say that is man's sin, if you like, is that he prides himself on his achievements. Prabhupāda: That is false pride. The scientist, the modern scientists, they are taking false pride that there is no need of God, we are now creating... Jesuit: Some of them are, not all... Prabhupāda: Some of the fools, not all fools, but some of the fools declaring themselves as scientists, "There is no God." We can (indistinct). Jesuit: Let me see if I can understand what you mean by God. *Prabhupāda: God means all*-powerful, the great. You say also, "The great." *Jesuit: I'd say all*-powerful, omnipotent, the great, yes. Prabhupāda: That is God. *Jesuit: All*-loving? Prabhupāda: Yes, everything He's great. Nobody can surpass His love. *Jesuit: I mean God is all*-loving? Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "Great," He's great in every respect. Jesuit: Good. Do you... In Christianity we have the trinity, the Father, Son and the relationship of love between them which we call three persons in one God... Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: In your understanding of God... Prabhupāda: God, God and His love towards us... Because we are sons of God, therefore Father has natural love for sons, therefore God comes. God sends His son or representative to canvass that "You come to God, you'll be happy there." Jesuit: Who was the son He sent? Prabhupāda: Eh? Just like Jesus, we say "son of God." So... Jesuit: That's the second person made man, become human, becomes a man. Prabhupāda: Yes, He is very important, but He is son, a very important son. Just like father may have many sons, but one of them may be very important, very good assistant to the father so Christ is like that. He is son of God, very important, He's helping God coming down to reclaim these fallen souls that "Come to God, why you are suffering here?" Son, He's very faithful and important son. But the others, they are also sons, but they have forgotten God. Therefore they are suffering. So sometimes He sends His son or His devotee and sometimes He comes Himself, that is Kṛṣṇa. Jesuit: And He comes in bodily form? Prabhupāda: Yes. God has... Why, the son has got body then the father has got body. Your son has got body so you have got your body. Without the father having body, how the son can get body? Jesuit: I don't understand that. Prabhupāda: If... Suppose your son, you have got this body, so your father must have body. Jesuit: Yes, true. Prabhupāda: Similarly if the son of God has body, the God must have body. Guest: Not necessarily. Prabhupāda: Why? Can you show any example, a son is born from without body? Jesuit: That is on a very human level which... Prabhupāda: Anyway that your experience is on the human field, you have to give some example that "Here is no body but the sun has body." Show me the example. *Jesuit: You can have a man who has a thing in what we would call super*-eminence and he has it on a higher form... Prabhupāda: Higher form maybe, but there is form. Jesuit: You take a musician like Beethoven, a musician... Prabhupāda: We also say that the God has got form but not form like this. Jesuit: No, he hasn't got form in Aristotle's idea of the word form either, his higher wathic(?) theory of matter and form. In a sense, form there means spirit and so... Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual form. Jesuit: ...but we're not using it in that sense. When you're using the word form, you mean a material form like a shape, a body... Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say material form, spiritual form. Jesuit: Well, I haven't understood you then. God, you say, has a form. Prabhupāda: Spiritual form. Jesuit: Aḥ well, matter of words, I can understand that. He has a... Prabhupāda: Not this form. Jesuit: No, not material. He's not matter, He's pure... Prabhupāda: No, no. Jesuit: We would say He's pure spirit... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, that is stated in the... Jesuit: There's no form of passivity in God, there's no form of change in God, there's no, no limitations of any sort. Matter has limitations. The soul is immortal because it has no principle of corruption in it. Aristotle would say that matter has parts, outside parts, and so it can, it has in itself the power of dissolving and it would break up, corrupts. The soul never does. Prabhupāda: We have got this material body and spiritual soul. That is in this material condition there is distinction between the spirit and matter. As soon as the spirit goes from this material body, it has no value. Jesuit: No life, true. Prabhupāda: It is matter only, lump of matter, combination of matter. Therefore the spirit is important even in this life. Jesuit: Oh, I see that, of course. Prabhupāda: Yes, spirit is important. But God is fully spirit, He has no material quality. Yes. We have got, in this material condition, difference between the matter and spirit, but God has not so, such thing. He is whole spirit. That is the difference between God... Jesuit: And also, as a result, the human, you, I, all these, we're all persons separate from one another, distinct from one another, and distinct from God, who is a separate person. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, we admit that. Jesuit: It's that I haven't understood. Sometimes you get pantheists who talk as though God is made up of a sum total of... Prabhupāda: That is a theory, that is a theory, that is not fact. Jesuit: No, it's a false theory because it goes against all logic and philosophy. Prabhupāda: But no, theory in this form that God is everywhere, by His potency but everything is not God. This is our philosophy. God is everywhere. Just like the sunshine. Sunshine is spread everywhere but that does not mean that everything is sun. Jesuit: That's true. *Prabhupāda: It is like that. God is all*-pervading by His potency. This book, this is also energy of God. Find out this verse, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. Jesuit: Do you, in your creed, do you believe in metempsychosis, that is the soul going through one form of life and then if it lives badly, the person lives badly, it comes back in another form and so on? Do you believe in the metempsychosis? Prabhupāda: Transmigration. Jesuit: Transmigration of souls. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated here. Jesuit: I find it hard to accept that. Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Just like you have entered this black dress and I have entered this as colored dress, but as human being we are the same. Jesuit: But to think that my soul belongs, say to a dog in ages gone past, or that it's going to come back and be a tiger or another person that... Prabhupāda: Tiger is the body and human form is also the body, so if you want to become like a tiger, then God helps you to enter the body of the tiger. Jesuit: I find it hard to accept that. Prabhupāda: How you'll not accept God is so kind if you want to be something, He helps you, "All right you come." Jesuit: It seems to me that God sent Jesus to tell the whole world... Prabhupāda: God says that, that "You don't desire anything, you simply become faithful to Me." That is God's desire. But we are not abiding by the orders of God. We want, we desire so many things. Just like, don't mind if I say, that God says, "Thou shalt not kill." But we are killing. We are violating. Their tendency is there so we must suffer for that. Jesuit: Aḥ, true, sure. If we know that we're doing wrong. Prabhupāda: Because we are not abiding by the order of God, therefore we must be prepared to suffer. So I, if I kill you then you kill me. Then going on, then I'll kill you, you kill me, go on. Life for life. You have no right to kill but if you kill then you'll be killed. Jesuit: I can accept all that. Although it's true that God has said, "Love one another." Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: People have always obeyed God. Prabhupāda: They'd kill. Instead of loving, they kill, so they must suffer. Jesuit: But it's not proved that the way of suffering is to come back in another form which is the theory of transmigration of the soul. *Prabhupāda: Just like you're in this apartment, you can go to another apartment and that apartment may not be exactly like this. It may be better or it may be worse. Similarly we have entered, find out the tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ. Devotee: *Prabhupāda: Just like a child gets another body, boyhood. The boy gets another body, youth. The youth gets another body, old man. Similarly when this body is not useful then he gets another body. Tathā dehāntara*-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13], as we experience dehāntara, different types of body, we are getting one after another, similarly the soul is immortal, he'll get another body. Now here it is not mentioned what kind of body, "another body." The "another body" means, there are 8,400,000 different types of body so he can enter any one of them according to his karma. That will be selected by higher authorities. Just like I do not know here, in India, in New Delhi, the Indian government, they give, I mean to say, house, accommodation to the government servant. So there are different types of houses, for minister one type of house, for secretaries for one type of house, for the clerks one type of house. So according to the position, one type of house is offered. So our, we are acting here according to our resultant action of the activities we get next birth. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Now the material nature has gone, three modes goodness, passion and ignorance, and mixture. So we are association with the modes of material nature and according to that nature we are manufacturing our next body. This is the... So in the material world we are infecting several types of quality of the nature. Not everyone is on the same quality. Just like these boys, they are being trained up under certain quality, they're not going to the restaurant, they are not going to the liquor shop, they're not smoking, they're not eating meat, they are no illicit sex, they are being trained up, this is a quality. And another man is going to the liquor shop, to the brothel, so many other things. They're not of the same quality. Jesuit: What is it all leading to? A state of liberation from material things? *Prabhupāda: Yes, there are two... Now in the human form of life, we have got two selection, I think in the Bible also it is said that one goes to hell, one goes to heaven. So we have got two selection, either to the path of hellish condition or to the path of back to home, back to Godhead. This is human life. It is in Sanskrit word it is called pravṛtti*-mārga, nivṛtti-mārga. Nivṛtti-mārga means stopping the material way of life and go to the spiritual world, back to home, back to Godhead. Jesuit: Does that name, that the things such as, you mentioned smoking and alcohol and sex and meat, that all those things are material and therefore bad? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: Take sex, how can that be considered...? Prabhupāda: Or Christian religion also there is celibacy, life, you also trained up, the nuns, the priests, they are not meant for marrying. Jesuit: That's true. We don't say that sex is bad. Prabhupāda: Why they are forbidden to marry? Jesuit: Well, it's a question of something I freely accept, freely accept not to marry. Prabhupāda: No. No, this is spiritual life. Sex life is not spiritual life. Jesuit: That I find so hard to accept because everything that God makes is good. When God makes a man... Prabhupāda: Good, what is good for you is not good for me, one man's food is another man's poison. Jesuit: But everything that God makes is good. Prabhupāda: That's all right, good for somebody. Just like stool, stool is good for the pigs not for the human being. Jesuit: But everything that God makes... Prabhupāda: Not everything is good. The pigs considers stool is very good, nice food. Jesuit: Every man is made with sex appetites. Every man is... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is called pravṛtti, pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā*-phalā. This is natural inclination, but if you can stop it, that is victory. Jesuit: No, I can't accept that. Prabhupāda: Now why you do not accept? In the Christian religion there is unmarried life. Jesuit: Married life is a good life. The use of sex is good. Prabhupāda: Good? Jesuit: Eating is good. If it's abused it's bad. Prabhupāda: No. Married life is good, that if you follow the rules and regulations. Otherwise... Jesuit: Therefore sex, in itself, is good. *Prabhupāda: Sex is good, that is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out, balaṁ balavatām asmi dharma..., like that. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Just see. Jesuit: What is this book? *Prabhupāda: This is Bhagavad*-gītā. He is speaking, the God is speaking. Jesuit: OK. Prabhupāda: So dharmāviruddha, sex life which is not against religious principle, that I am. Kṛṣṇa, God says. So sex life is not bad provided it is under the religious system. Jesuit: That's true of everything, yes. I thought you were saying sex in itself is bad. Prabhupāda: No, no. Sex life... Jesuit: There have been people in the history of the world like the Manicheans and that who held that sex in itself was bad. Now I couldn't accept that. It's part of man. Prabhupāda: No, dharmāviruddha. Just you can have sex for begetting nice children but not for sense gratification. Jesuit: Also for increasing the love between husband and wife. Prabhupāda: Mm? Jesuit: Even though they can't have children. Prabhupāda: No, they can have children. Jesuit: Suppose they can't. Prabhupāda: They can, if they can beget nice children, they can have sex. Jesuit: But suppose they can't have children. Would you say they can still have sex. Prabhupāda: No. That is not allowed. Jesuit: That is where I think... Prabhupāda: That is illicit sex. If you cannot produce children, and still you have sex, that is illicit sex. Jesuit: Yes, well I find it hard to accept that. Tell me more about your concept of God. I'd be very interested to know. Prabhupāda: God is great. He's great in every respect, in strength... Jesuit: Is He a person? Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless... A person... What is the meaning of great? Jesuit: Well you can speak about a mountain being great and that's not God. Prabhupāda: But God can swallow millions of mountains. That is God. Your conception is: mountain is very great. But our conception is: God is so great that He can swallow millions of mountains. So whose greatness is greater, the mountain's or God's? Jesuit: Well it's a different order altogether, one's... Prabhupāda: "God is great," means whatever greatness, just as sky is the great, there are millions of sky, that is God's... Jesuit: That's all in the material world. Prabhupāda: Material and spiritual, we both speak. "God is great," means He's materially great and spiritually great. That is His greatness. If you think that He's spiritually great and materially small, that is not great. That is not greatness. Jesuit: You know, in the Bible it says God knows everybody yet and knows them by name. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is greatness. That is His greatness. Jesuit: A knowing person... Prabhupāda: You know yourself or you know myself, but you cannot know everyone. Jesuit: That's right. Prabhupāda: But God knows everyone. Jesuit: And loves everybody. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: Would you say that He loves the person that is doing wrong? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: Still. Prabhupāda: Therefore He comes... Jesuit: To save. Prabhupāda: "Don't do wrong." That is love. Jesuit: And if the person... Prabhupāda: Therefore that is love. Jesuit: And if the person rejects that love, does He still love him? *Prabhupāda: Yes, still love him. He's trying. God is situated in everyone's heart, īśvaraḥ sarva*-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. Jesuit: God cannot change. Prabhupāda: Yes. God is friend always. He is sitting with the individual soul within the heart and giving him good advice that "You come to Me, you'll be happy." But he's not going. Therefore he's (indistinct). Still God is with him, "All right, let me see." Just like the father, he loves his son. He always gives him, "My dear son, why you are going out? Your father has got nice property, you live with me." But he'll not do, he'll go away and become hippie. What can be done? Jesuit: "Kṛṣṇa," what exactly does "Kṛṣṇa" mean? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means all*-attractive. That is great. You say, "God is great." We say God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. Unless you are the great, you cannot be all-attractive. Jesuit: When you speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it means... Prabhupāda: God consciousness, God consciousness. God is great and I am His eternal servant. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Two words: God is great and I am His eternal servant, I am small. This consciousness is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jesuit: Do you know the prayer that the Russians use, the Jesus prayer? Prabhupāda: Any prayer. God is one. Either you pray in a different way, I'll pray in a different way, it doesn't matter. Jesuit: I know that but I want to know do you know what is known as the Jesus prayer which the Russians use? Devotee: No, he doesn't know. Jesuit: It seems to me that you chant, don't you, Hare Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: That is a prayer, it's a rhythmic chant. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is prayer. Prabhupāda: Now that is a form of prayer and the Jesus prayer, would you do the same? You would either chant it...? [break] Jesuit: Aḥ, well, maybe from the point of your giving glory to God, no difference. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is spiritual, that is spiritual. To give glory to God, that is spiritual. And otherwise, what do you think of this materiality of this chanting? Chanting is not material. Chanting is spiritual. Jesuit: Well, it depends. I mean, some thing, of course... Prabhupāda: No. Spiritual thing does not depend on anything material. Jesuit: The sum product that the full prayer is certainly a spiritual experience created by a material use of lips and things like that, it makes a noise. Prabhupāda: No, it is not material creation. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not material creation. It is from the spiritual world. Jesuit: Oh, I see that, but I mean if you've spoken words... All I'm trying to say is that it's body and soul together praying. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Body and soul different. Jesuit: Oh, of course, yes. Prabhupāda: Body and soul different. Jesuit: But that's the point I was trying to make, that you have a gradation in your prayer of..., in the Jesus prayer, in which you speak and you can hear the noise, chanting. You might say something like this: (Sings softly) Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Now, that's a chanting, a singing, and it sums up everything I believe in, say, in the word Jesus. But then there can be the other where there's no sound is heard, but I'm still thinking it in my mind. Prabhupāda: Similarly you can think of Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Sings) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Same thing. Where is the difference? There is no difference. Jesuit: The third form is where I do not think it, it's just, I'm sort of rapt, absorbed in the divine... Prabhupāda: Yes. But that attention, ecstasy, comes in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Otherwise these young boys are chanting and dancing... Unless there is ecstasy... They are not monkeys. They are human beings. They are dancing, with education, with culture. Unless there is spiritual ecstasy, how they can chant and dance for hours together? It is not monkey dancing. It is spiritual. It is spiritual. Jesuit: Oh, I can see that. Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is God's omnipotency. When you offer sincere prayer, the words become spiritual. That is wanted. If you sincerely offer your prayers, God understands. Even though sound appears to be material it is no more material; it is spiritual. Just like... I will give you one example. Just you put one iron rod in the fire. So the iron rod becomes warm, warmer, warmer, and then it becomes red hot. When it is red hot, it is no more iron. It is fire. You touch that red hot anywhere; it will burn. Jesuit: Hm. Transformed, it changes. Prabhupāda: Yes. So actually there is nothing material. When God consciousness is there, it is spiritual. This... In association with God, everything becomes spiritual. Just like there is a church and there is an ordinary house. People say, " This is church, God's place, and this is house." What is the difference? That is also made of bricks; that is also made of bricks. Why people go to the church? Why not to the house? So the conclusion is, when the atmosphere is surcharged with God consciousness, it is spiritual. Immediately. Otherwise, as soon as you forget God, then it is material. Material and spiritual means where there is no forgetfulness of God, that is spiritual. And where there is forgetfulness of God, that is material. Jesuit: Hm. Sort of a figurative use of the word. *Prabhupāda: Not figurative, it is actual. Actually, God is all*-pervading. Everything is God's energy. Therefore God is whole spirit. His energy cannot be material. Jesuit: Yes, I can see that. Prabhupāda: The material is, as soon as we forget the relationship with God. That is material. Jesuit: Um hm. Prabhupāda: Otherwise God is everywhere. Jesuit: But we're using the words in a figurative sense there. I mean... Prabhupāda: No, it is actually. Just like the sunshine... Jesuit: This is matter (knocks on something). This is matter. Prabhupāda: This is matter so long we forget God. Jesuit: But no matter what you do to this, it will still remain matter. Prabhupāda: It is energy of God. Matter is also... Jesuit: But it is still matter. Prabhupāda: ...inferior energy of God. Matter is not different from God. Find out, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ [Bg. 7.4]. Because everything is emanates from God. He is the father of everything. Jesuit: God has created everything, yes. But not everything is spiritual. Prabhupāda: That I already said, that God is..., everything is depending on God, but not everything is God. Jesuit: No, true. So this, no matter what you do to it, it must remain matter. Prabhupāda: This is matter, but when it is used for God, this is spirit. Jesuit: Well, that's why I say it is figurative use. Prabhupāda: The same example, just like... Jesuit: It still remains wood. Prabhupāda: ...the church is made of matter, wood and stone, but it is spirit, because here there is nothing other business than God. So the real thing is, matter means forgetfulness of God. Read that, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ. Madhudviṣa: *Prabhupāda: That's it. So God being all spirit, His energy is also spirit. His energy cannot be different. But in this material energy we forget God. Therefore it is called material. If we know that this wood is also energy of God, that is spiritual understanding. And if we think that wood has come independently from any other source, that is material. In the Vedānta*-sūtra this is discussed in the beginning athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the Absolute Truth. The answer is janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Absolute Truth is that, or is the source of everything, Absolute Truth." So there are two things, material and spiritual. So both are coming from God. Just like darkness and light, two sides of the sun. So when there is light, we call day; when it is darkness, we call night. But they are simply two sides of the sun, the supreme light, or the material light. Similarly, material is darkness, and spiritual is light. Both sides. Sometime it is said "The spiritual is the front side of God, and material is the back side of God." Jesuit: Everything is distinct from God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: We are distinct persons. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā. Jesuit: We share our being from God. Prabhupāda: Bhinnā prakṛtiḥ, that is stated, "separated energy." Material things means separated energy. Just like this tape recorder. When we are not here, they will play the record and I am speaking. That is separated energy. And I am directly speaking, that is nonseparated energy. So separated energy and nonseparated energy, they are coming from the same source. The source is the same. Therefore, ultimate issue, the source being all spirit, everything is spirit. But the place where we do not directly perceive God, that is material. And the place where we directly perceive God, that is spiritual. So either separated or connected, God is the only one source of all energies. That is explained there. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. Madhudviṣa: I couldn't find the other verses. The next verse is apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām. Prabhupāda: Yes. Read that. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda: So from here we understand the material energy and the spiritual energy. So spiritual energy is predominating over the material energy. Jesuit: Yes, I understand that. It's the spirit of God Prabhupāda: Therefore it is superior energy, and the material energy, inferior energy. Just like in your body there are some inferior parts and some superior parts. But they are body, parts of the body. This part is superior part, and the rectum is inferior part. But that does not mean it does not form the constitution parts of your body. Otherwise how you become whole? Whole means comprising everything, superior, inferior. But comparatively, there is superior part, inferior part. So the material energy is also God's energy. And spiritual energy is also God's energy, but the spiritual energy is described here as superior energy, and the material energy is described here as inferior energy. But altogether, they are energies. So those who are expert devotees of God, they can utilize inferior energy for the purpose of superior energy. That is the proper utilization. Just like the same brick and stone is required for constructing an ordinary house, and the same brick and stone can be used for constructing a church. Jesuit: Yes, I understand that. Prabhupāda: Yes. The material is not different. The ordinary house is constructed with the same bricks and stone, and church is also made of that. But why it is superior? Because it is specially, only meant for God's purpose. So anything utilized for God's purpose, it becomes spiritual. This is our philosophy. Jesuit: Very good. You're kind, talking to me. Prabhupāda: So we are trying to engage everything in God's service, to make it superior energy. Jesuit: How do you see helping your fellow man? *Prabhupāda: We are helping. We are making them God conscious. Yes. That is best help. Instead of making them drunkard, woman*-hunter, meat-eaters, we are making them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the best help. Jesuit: And do they go out and make other disciples? Śrutakīrti: He said do we go out and make other disciples. Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept as disciple anyone who does not follow the rules and regulations. Jesuit: Is it by prayer to God that you help the world? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is prayer, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa means "O Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's energy, please accept me as Your servant." Jesuit: But are you praying for all these people outside who do not belong to... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Jesuit: So you're... Prabhupāda: Therefore we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa so that they can hear and take benefit. But they see that, "They are disturbing," but we are helping them. Jesuit: And do you believe that God is pleased by your prayer and helps them because of your prayer? *Prabhupāda: That depends on God. God is fully independent. He may not like. You cannot force Him. But it is our duty to request Him. You cannot force Him. If He likes... If He does not like, that is His will, because He is the supreme will. But God likes. If a devotee requests Him something, He likes to accept. That is God's mercy. He takes the devotee's prayer very seriously. Therefore our another process is to take the shelter of a devotee first. Because even one is inferior, not to be accept by God, but if a devotee requests, "God, kindly accept this fellow," God accepts. Mercy of saintly... Kṛpā*-siddha. The Sanskrit word is kṛpā-siddha. He becomes perfect by the mercy of devotee. Jesuit: What was the meaning of the bag you wear on your hand? Prabhupāda: These chanting. Beads. Jesuit: Oh, beads in there. Prabhupāda: Yes. I think in Christian there are beads also. Jesuit: I saw them in the picture, they had'em, and I didn't know what it was. Prabhupāda: This is covering of the beads because we put here, there may be some dust. So to show respect to the beads, we keep it covered. We do not touch on the floor. It is awe and veneration. Jesuit: Well, I have kept you long enough. I... *Prabhupāda: No, you can keep me engaged whole day and night, (laughter) provided you have got time. We are meant for this purpose. If anyone can understand God consciousness, that is a great profit for us. Now our appeal is to everyone, every religious sect, that people are becoming godless generally at the present moment. So we should make combined effort to revive their God consciousness. Otherwise it is doomed. And there is no question of Christian God or Hindu God or Muslim God. God is one. So there should be no difference between the system. According to the time and circumstances, there may be little difference, but really if we can understand God, either through Christianity or through Hinduism or Muslim, that is our profit. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. "That is first-class religion, following which, one becomes a lover of God". You become a lover of God. That we want to see. It doesn't matter whether you go through Christian religion or Mohammedan religion or Hindu religion or Buddhist... Jesuit: I agree entirely. Prabhupāda: This is our mission. Jesuit: And it's good that, I think, we are coming more to understand that. And I think you see a lot of young people who really are longing for some form of contemplation and prayer. That is why you get followers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, these boys they are coming from your Christian group, Jewish group, but they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys, and before this movement, they didn't care to come to the church. And now they are mad after God. How is it? The same boys." So indirectly he accepted this process as easier to understand God. And actually it is easier. What do they do? They don't go to the forest, or meditate, or make any very austere, what is called, penances. They simply chant in the morning and dance in ecstasy and then eat sumptuously. That's all. And now they have given up everything. Now, you bribe them, "You eat meat." They will never eat. They will not drink tea even. The method is... The American government they spent lots of money for stopping this addiction to drugs. And these boys, as soon as they come to me, they give up. Ask them what money I have bribed them. You can ask how they have left it. Jesuit: It satisfies the longing in the heart one has for God. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you can ask them. They will inform, that nobody of them, either Hindu or Christian, Indian... They are coming all from Christian group or Jewish group. So they are all educated boys. So there is no question of bluffing them. Young boys, they can earn money like anything, especially in America. But they have given everything. They are very respectable father's son. But they have given up... Jesuit: The thing is like Augustine said, that "The heart is restless until it rests in You, our God." And I think that's... Prabhupāda: No, I don't teach them that I am God. I never taught. I always teach them I am servant of God, you are also servant. And they accept it. Actually that is our position. This is bluff. When somebody says "I am God," that is bluff, cheating. We protest very vehemently against the declaration that "I am God." No. Nobody can become God. God is one. Jesuit: That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: Well, I must run away. It's been very good talking to you. Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. Just take some prasāda. Madhudviṣa: This is a little fruit that we traditionally offer to a guest. We offer them a little fruit so could you take one piece? Prabhupāda: You can take the whole plate. (laughter) Jesuit: Take the whole plate? I just eat it? Madhudviṣa: (laughing) Yes, yes. It's just... Jesuit: No special ceremony? Madhudviṣa: We've already done that. Jesuit: Ok. When I was in India and I visited a shrine... It was the festival of the goddess of learning. *Prabhupāda: Oh, Sarasvatī*-pūjā. Jesuit: And they brought me fruit to eat at the end, and I was embarrassed, and I didn't know whether to take it or not, and they said it's their custom, "You must take it." So I did. Prabhupāda: We say by worshiping God, everyone is worshiped. There is no need of separately worshiping goddess of fortune, goddess of learning. Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, it goes to every branch, leaf, and twigs, every..., approaches. Take some fruits. Jesuit: No, no more, thank you. Thank you very much. Devotee: Would you like a little water? Jesuit: No, I am all right thanks. Prabhupāda: So people, either through Christianity or through any process, they must come to the understanding platform where we can understand what is God and how to love Him. That is required. Otherwise this human civilization will be spoiled. Jesuit: And the great truth also that God loves every one of us. Prabhupāda: God loves. That is natural, but you do not love, I do not love. That is the difficulty. Father loves the son; that is natural. But when the son does not love father that is a very precarious condition. Jesuit: Good. Well, thank you very much. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, jaya. Jesuit: Thank you. We will pray for one another. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jesuit: God bless you. Goodbye everybody. (leaves.) Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: You have got that canteloupe? No. Śrutakīrti: No. Guruprasāda, you can get melon, honeydew melon now? Guruprasāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Okay. You made him run away. He said, "I must run away." (laughing) (end). Room Conversation with Journalist -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne *Prabhupāda: Because the whole world was merged into water. So evolution takes place from aquatics, fish. Then, as the water dries up, there was vegetation, plants. Plants, creepers, trees. Then, gradually, the insects, moths, reptiles, serpents, they come out. And then, from insects, the birds, varieties of birds, and aquatics, 900,000. And eleven hundred thousand, 1,100,000 species of these insects and reptiles. And one million varieties of birds. And then beasts, animals, four*-legged, there are three million varieties. So all together this is eight million. Huh? No? Australian devotee: 400,000. Prabhupāda: No, total human being, 400,000 species. Altogether, 8,400,000 species of living entities. So these are coming, evolution, by the laws of nature. You cannot stop it. The laws of nature, you cannot interfere. In this way we come to the human form of body, and especially civilized human being. Supposedly, it is the Aryans. The Aryan family, they are the topmost civilized group amongst the living entities. Now, in this life one has to enquire about himself that what is the difference between me and the dog? Why I am claiming a better position than the dog? What is the difference? The difference is that a human being, if he endeavors, he can understand his real constitutional position and he can understand God also. God. Therefore in the human society, civilized human society, there is some sort of religious system. It does not matter whether it is Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, or Buddha religion. There is some religion in the civilized human society. Journalist: Civil what, sir? Prabhupāda: In the civilized human society there is some system of religion. So that system of religion means try to understand God. Religion means the law given by God. So civilized human beings, they are trying to understand God and His laws. That is called religion. Now the difference between dog and me is that I can try to understand what is God, what is my position; *the dog cannot understand. Dog means the animals. They cannot understand. So that is the difference between a human being and a dog. If we give up religion or the method to understand God and our relationship with Him, then we will remain dog. Then we remain dog. We are not human being. So at the present moment the so*-called human society, civilized human society, is giving up the conception of God, understanding God, especially the Communist party. They are openly declaring that "We don't believe in God." But those who are not Communists, they, lip sympathy, they say that "Yes, we believe in God," but actually they do not believe. Journalist: What about other religion? Prabhupāda: Well, we are speaking of religion. There is no question of "other religion," "your religion," "my religion." We are speaking of God. God is God. Just like gold is gold. Because it is in the hand of a Christian, you cannot say that "It is Christian gold." The gold is gold. Journalist: But do you accept the validity of other religion? Prabhupāda: Validity... Any religion which is seeking after God, that is valid. If any religion does not obey God, does not know God, that is cheating. That is not religion. Yes. Journalist: How would you say this godlessness is... Prabhupāda: Godlessness is one does not know what is God. And just like you know me. You have come to me. You know I am a person, I am talking, I have written so many books. This is knowing me. Similarly, one must know what is God, what is His feature, what does He do, what does He teach, what law He gives. This is knowing God. Simply to understand, "Oh, well, that is God. Let Him remain at His place, and let me do whatever I like," that is not understanding of God. You must know God just like you must know your father. If you are interested with your father's property, then you must know your father, who is your father. Journalist: How is this godlessness showing itself in our society? Prabhupāda: Godlessness means foolishness because... *Journalist: Is liquor... Too much liquor and self*-indulgence? Prabhupāda: There are details. There are so many things. The total is rascaldom and foolishness. Godlessness means rascaldom and foolishness. Journalist: Ras...? Ras...? Prabhupāda: Rascal. How can I say, "There is no God"? Is it very reasonable? Just like you have got a father, and your father has got father, his father has got father... Go on. You come to the supreme father, the original father. There must be one original father. That is God. How can I deny God? Can you deny? Journalist: No, I don't deny. *Prabhupāda: Personally you may not. But the atheists, they say "There is no God." The so*-called scientists, atheists, they say, "There is no God." So how can it be? If you say "There is no father," how it is possible? Without father, how you exist? So God is accepted the supreme father, the original father. So how the atheists can deny the existence of God? Is that very good argument, to deny the original father? Journalist: Yes. I would like to know more about what do you think our society is doing wrong? Prabhupāda: Wrong because they do not care for the original father. The father has given so many facilities. We require water. There is oceans and big, big seas and oceans. Father has given. We require light. The father has given the sun. We require heat, everything arrangement is there so that we can live very nicely and thank father. This is our duty. But people are becoming more or less rebellious: "Oh, there is no God. We are God." What is this foolishness? Journalist: Are people using the wrong things to live too sophisticated? Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be. Because he is foolish, he will do all nonsense..., wrong things, which will create unhappiness. To deny God means foolishness, and foolish man simply will create trouble. Just like monkey. Monkey is always busy by simply creating trouble, that's all. And they are claiming, the foolish Darwin's theories, they also claim that monkey is our forefather. Journalist: Is that true? Do you believe that? Prabhupāda: No, I have told you already, the evolution. The monkey is not our forefather, but in the evolutionary process we came through monkey. That is a fact. Because that is an animal, so we have to pass through three million varieties of animal's body. So monkey is one of them. Journalist: When did we stop becoming the monkey and start to become a man? Prabhupāda: Yes, that depends. By nature's course, you automatically come to human body. Now, in the human body it is a junction, whether you want to make further progress and if you want to go back again to the cycle of the birth and death and the evolutionary process. That is to be decided by you. If you want to go to God, you can go. And if you want to become again a monkey, you can do that. That will depend on your work. Yes. Journalist: You founded the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. How long ago was that? *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is since five thousand years ago or before that. You may say forty millions of years ago as it is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. But taking it by modern history, in your country, in the Western countries, I have started it since 1966 from New York. The movement is very, very old. But it is started in the Western countries since last seven or eight years. Journalist: And where did it first start, which country? Prabhupāda: New York. Journalist: In New York. Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: What is your background? Are you from India? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: What is your age now? *Prabhupāda: I am now just almost complete, seventy*-nine. In September I will be eighty. Journalist: Tomorrow? Prabhupāda: No, September. My birth date is 1896. Journalist: And when did you go to the United States? Prabhupāda: Oh, very old age. I went there in 1965. Journalist: Yes. To found the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Journalist: And what were you in India before that? Did you have a religious background? Prabhupāda: No, no, from the very childhood we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, our family, the Vaiṣṇava family. My father and my forefathers, they are all belonged to this cult, Kṛṣṇa cult. So naturally from our childhood we were trained up in this cult. Journalist: Yes. Do you have children? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I have got my wife, children, everything. But now I have no connection with them; I am a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī means to give up all material connection. Journalist: Yes. Is your son in the cult? Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. But they are not so advanced. Just like one belongs to some cult, religion, but one may not be very expert to understand that religion. So they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but not so expert. Journalist: In India or the United States? Prabhupāda: India, in Calcutta, my family is there in Calcutta. Journalist: You live in New York? Prabhupāda: No, no, I travel all over the world. My, in America headquarter, Los Angeles. And European headquarter, London. Journalist: Is Kṛṣṇa consciousness connected with any other religion? Does it derive from Hinduism or Buddhism? Prabhupāda: Yes, you can call it Hinduism, but actually it does not belong to any "ism." It is a science of understanding God. But it appears like Hindu religion. In that sense Buddha religion is also Hindu religion, because Lord Buddha was a Hindu and he started Buddha religion. Journalist: Do you think modern man must mend his ways or he will... he must get better and know God or he will destroy himself? Prabhupāda: Yes, he is destroying already. The society is not in stable stage. Just like in America, they are also in trouble now. They are asking money from the federal government. They cannot make solution. So as soon as the monetary source will decline, this civilization will be finished. Journalist: As soon as the money declines. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there is no culture. They are not standing on culture. They are standing on money. Journalist: You think we pay too much importance to money? Prabhupāda: Yes, everybody, yes. They do not know what is culture of life. They simply want money, that's all. Journalist: Do you think we have too much for our needs? Prabhupāda: You are creating your needs. You are not too much in need, but you have created so many artificial needs. Journalist: Such as what? Prabhupāda: Everything. Suppose this boy is sitting down. Now I am sitting in a very nice couch. So it is not absolutely necessary that couch is required. But for getting this couch, we had to spend so much energy. So similarly, unnecessarily we have created so many things and going on. That I was going to say, that we come to the human form of life by nature's way. Now what is our duty? Our duty is to make further progress. But instead of going further progressively we are again going to become monkeys and dogs. This is our position. Journalist: What about other artifacts of civilization like television and motorcars... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good, just like we also use motorcar, but not for fashion. Suppose if we go for preaching. If we can go by car quickly, we take advantage of the car. We have got many cars for preaching work. So everything is good, provided it is used for progressive goodness. (coughs) That our mistake is that when... Now listen, there is the mistake in Darwin's theory also. He has no information that the evolution is taking place, of the body, by the desire of the soul. That he does not know. Just like sometimes people were happy and living in a small cottage. Now they are making big, big skyscraper building. So what is the difference? The cottage and this... The cottage is not becoming the skyscraper building but the man who was living in the cottage, by his desire the skyscraper building is coming. Similarly the evolution means the soul within the body desires a certain type of body and he gets it. Not that the monkey body has developed into human body. Journalist: In that case, if we go on developing, we stay in the skyscraper, or the skyscraper gets bigger. Prabhupāda: Yes. The skyscraper is not impediment, it is not impediment. If you remain in the skyscraper and develop your spiritual consciousness, you can do that. But the unfortunate thing is that we are too much absorbed in constructing the skyscraper building, forgetting our real business. That is the defect. Journalist: What about sex and drugs, sex and alcohol. *Prabhupāda: Sex, yes, alcohol, we condemn any kind of intoxication, all our students are forbidden illicit sex. We don't say, "No sex," but "illicit sex," we forbid. Similarly we forbid meat*-eating. We don't say that "Don't eat," we simply say that "don't eat meat." You can eat other things, just like we are eating so many nice things. Journalist: Why not meat? Prabhupāda: Because it is sinful, you are killing all animals. Your Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? Journalist: Yes. How many followers do you have throughout the world now? Prabhupāda: No, throughout the world, in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. In the outside India we have got about ten to twelve thousand dedicated followers. Journalist: Do you mean every, the whole of India is Kṛṣṇa conscious? Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they know what is Kṛṣṇa. Journalist: But how many of them practice it? Prabhupāda: How many millions? Still, if you hold any Kṛṣṇa conscious meeting, they will come by thousands, twenty thousand, thirty thousand, like that. Even village to village, if there is any chance of Kṛṣṇa conscious meeting, all the villagers will come, still. Journalist: How many years has Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Prabhupāda: That I told you, according to the modern history, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is there since five thousand years. Journalist: Nine thousand years. Prabhupāda: Five thousand. Journalist: Five thousand years. Prabhupāda: Mm. And before that there was Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement also and that date is... (end) Morning Walk -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne Śrutakīrti: The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk in the Melbourne Botanical Gardens on May 20th, 1975. [break] Prabhupāda: ...here. Devotee (1): Not too many flowering varieties. *Prabhupāda: No, not speaking of flowering. I mean to say varieties, plants and creepers, two millions. Lakṣa*-viṁśati. Ten lakhs equal to one million, and viṁśati, twenty lakhs. Hari-śauri: There was one newspaper article in the paper I was reading. They were advertising a new book about the evolution of man. And they were saying that there was approximately two million varieties of life on this planet. This was the calculation of the scientists. Prabhupāda: Two millions? No, 8,400,000. *Śrutakīrti: You were saying the other day that all the species of life are mentioned in the Padma*-Purāṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrutakīrti:: They're all given account of. Prabhupāda: They have given separate account or only on the total? Hari-śauri: Only approximation. Śrutakīrti:: An estimate. [break] *Hari-śauri: ...a drawing of the so*-called missing link between the evolution from ape to man. They have given one drawing of a species looking like a man but hunched like an ape. And they're claiming this is... Prabhupāda: Where they have got it? Hari-śauri: ...that this type of personality was existing millions of years ago. [break] Amogha: Of the 400,000 human species, what is the distinguishing characteristic that makes one different from another? How could we recognize them, or could we? Prabhupāda: You have not seen varieties of men? Amogha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Then, what is the... Amogha: Well is it divided by country or within one country there are many species? Prabhupāda: You are taking of country, but the śāstra takes of the planets, not of the country. Your idea is very crippled: country, national. But śāstra is not... There is no such thing as national. They take the whole universe as a whole. They consider from that angle of vision. These crippled ideas, "state," "national," has come later on. There was no such thing previously. One planet or universe, like that. Just like last night the girl was astonished that "How this planet can be governed by one king?" It was being actually done. And the whole universe is being governed by Brahmā, one person. So one must know how to govern. Devotee (1): We can see, Śrīla Prabhupāda, by the distribution of wealth and minerals in each loka, in each planet, it is meant to be governed by one ruler. One place there is gold, one place grain to grow. Is this true? Prabhupāda: No. Everywhere there is everything, maybe proportionately in different quantities. Hari-śauri: Is that governing that Brahmā does in the universe, he does that in relationship with all the other demigods like they are departmental heads? So he is not personally directing every single thing. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is given in charge. Just like we have got different GBC's for different jobs. Similarly, they are doing their duty nicely. All these planets are the different residential quarter of different demigods. They are controlling the whole universal affairs. In comparison to them, this human being is nothing. We are controlled; we are not controller. That they do not realize. The modern civilization they do not realize, although they are being controlled they do not recognize it. That is the defect. This way? Devotee (2): Yeah. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the human form is insignificant compared to demigods, but still, it is very much desired, this human form of life, even by the demigods? Prabhupāda: Yes, because very good chance of realizing God in the human form of life. Just like difference between Western countries and India. India, a very quick chance of realization of God. The atmosphere is so nice. So this planet is good for God realization, and the best place is in India. Hari-śauri: Our temples, they are considered to have the same atmosphere? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-śauri: To be just as potent as the holy places in India? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You can create that potency anywhere within this planet. *Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying yesterday that the rains, by the rains all good things come, and the rains come because of good yajña. So in this planet everybody is meat*-eating, or in this country everybody is performing sinful activities. Prabhupāda: Therefore it is decreasing. The more you are becoming sinful, the rain will decrease. Devotee (3): So it is decreasing now. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And at the end there will be no rain. Then this whole planet will be ablaze with fire. That is the beginning of destruction. Everything will die*-all trees, plants, animals, everything. It will be made into ashes by the fire. And then there will be rain, and the ashes will be melted, and the whole universe will be finished. Devotee (2): I read too, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that in the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira there was only rainfall in the nighttime. Is this true? Prabhupāda: Night time? Devotee (2): Rain would fall in the nighttime so that... Prabhupāda: No. Who said that nighttime? Śrutakīrti:: It mentions in Kṛṣṇa book that in the evening it would rain. Devotee (2): So as not to disturb the activity of the inhabitants through the daytime. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the way. If nighttime it rains and daytime there is sunshine, then the land becomes very fertile to produce. Yes. There is a common saying in Bengal, dine jal rātr e tā rā sei janme sukha dhā rā.(?) If it rains heavily during daytime and at night you see the stars, then you should know there will be scarcity of rain. There will be scarcity of rain and scarcity of food grains. Best thing is at night there must be heavy rain, and daytime, there should be sunshine. Then the field will be very fertile. Hari-śauri: Is the irregularity in the weather and... Prabhupāda: That is due to sinful life. Hari-śauri: So if we increase the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Prabhupāda: Then it will be regular. It is nature's punishment. You may not care what is sinful life, but that is recorded. That is foolishness. "I don't care for God, don't care for what is going to happen." That is foolishness. People, lower planetary system, they are like that. In this planet also. In Western countries there are many places. "Don't care for anything, what is sinful life, what is going to happen. Let us enjoy, that's all." This is their philosophy. "Let us enjoy, that's all." Materialistic point of view is like that. They do not know that we are eternal and we are responsible for our activities. That is knowledge. But they have no knowledge. They simply want to enjoy. They do not care for death also. Simply sense gratification. That's all. This is called dānava, dānava life. The scientist explain for so many varieties. They accept there are varieties. Why there are so many varieties of life? Hari-śauri: They were simply approximating. They said from recent discoveries and examination of fossils and like this... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hari-śauri: ...they made their calculation. Prabhupāda: Why there are varieties? Amogha: They say originally there was just a cell, and by adaptation in some circumstances, one kind would live and another would die. So all these varieties adapted to different conditions. Prabhupāda: Who adapted this? Who managed? Amogha: Well they just... accidentally. Prabhupāda: Ah, that is nonsense. Nothing happens accidentally. That is nonsense. There must be some arrangement. What is happening accidentally? Why you are taking care of these trees? So many things. Nothing is done accidentally. You do not see the cause. If accidentally one can become rich, why you are struggling so hard to become rich? Why their motorcars are flying whole day and night, here and there? Why you are trying? Let accidentally money come, and sit down. Why do they not do that? "If accident is there, let accident come and I will become rich man." Why they try? Why they go to the college? Let accidentally you become M.A., Ph D. This is all rascaldom, simply poor thought. Poor thought. If things happen accidentally, why you are trying? What is the answer? *Amogha: Well, we try, but*-we have to try-but we can't tell what's going to happen. So it's happening accidentally when we try. Just like in school we have to try, but maybe we will become promoted. Prabhupāda: No, if you believe in accident, then you should not endeavor for anything. Nothing happens accidentally. Hari-śauri: Well, then could not we say that by man's activity, then, things are happening? I had one letter from a person I used to know and... Prabhupāda: Activity plus sanction of God, two things. There are five causes. The activity, the place, the proportion of energy, and ultimately, sanction by God. Then things happen. Otherwise there is no question of accident. Accident can happen by the will of God. That is also... Behind that accident, there is will of God. Hari-śauri: So if God is forgotten, then we are simply struggling because... Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: ...we are thinking that we are the controller. Prabhupāda: We are wrongly directed. [break] ...described as mūḍha, asses, who does not take instruction from God and thinks that things will happen accidentally. *Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, is this philosophy like karma*-mīmāṁsā which is described in the Kṛṣṇa book? Is this the same principle, where they feel that simply by their endeavor things will come, without the sanction of God? Is this karma-mīmāṁsā? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, karma*-mīmāṁsā. [break] Now, if you do good, good result will come. So sometimes it so happens that a person doing very good, still, good result will not come. Is it not? Devotee (1): That's true. Prabhupāda: Yes. Which way? [break] Hari-śauri: Their argument is, then, if God is there and He is actually the ultimate controller, and He is motivating everything to happen, then I can just sit back and do nothing and things will happen. Prabhupāda: No, you should work for the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. But do not think that because you working very nicely, the result will come. That is the... Because it is not in your hand. Therefore, karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana: "Your duty is to go on working, but don't expect the result as you desire." That will never happen unless it is sanctioned. Just like a man is suffering. Your duty is to appoint nice physician, nice medicine. But is there any guarantee that he will live? Why does he die? You can say that "I have given the best medicine and best medical treatment." Still, he dies. What is the cause? What do they say? What is the cause? Amogha: Perhaps they didn't know the right... Prabhupāda: [break] Wherefrom the force comes? Why don't you inquire? Why do you say that sometimes you are forced to commit mistake. So why don't you inquire wherefrom the force coming? Did you inquire that? Devotee (2): I tried to, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: The force means there is Supreme, He is forcing. Without His sanction, you will be forced to commit mistake. Hari-śauri: That force is kāma, lust? *Prabhupāda: No, force is there*-God's desire or supreme will. You are trying to do something, you are trying your best. You are employing your full energy and all the means. Still, it is not done. Therefore the force is coming from God. Otherwise how you will explain? What is the explanation, that you endeavor, you did all that is possible by you, still, the result did not come? So how you will explain? Hari-śauri: You must accept God. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee (1): They try to make God their order*-supplier, and when the supply does not come, they say there is no God. *Prabhupāda: God is not order*-supplier. Otherwise everyone is praying. Just like in the last war, everyone went to church and prayed for saving the life... mostly woman, because all men in Germany especially, everywhere, they went to the war front. So all the women, they went to the church for praying for their husband, for their brother or father. But nobody came back. And later on, they became atheist: "Oh, there is no God." Because God did not supply their order, therefore there is no God. "If God agrees to my proposal and He supplies things as I want, then there is God. Otherwise there is no God." That means God is under my condition. This is going on. Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one song written where the writer said that the reason the Americans won the war was because God is on their side. Prabhupāda: So, that is the fact. Unless God desired, how they can win? That, we admit that. Hari-śauri: But now they are again becoming a mouse, the Americans? Now they are losing the favor of God? Prabhupāda: No, they are right officially: "We trust in God." [break] ...the whole, I think, Americans are fortunate because this saṅkīrtana movement is there. Yes. If they take it more seriously, they will be actually favored nation of the Lord. Hari-śauri: At the present moment it seems that the Communist movement seems to be taking over more and more countries. *Prabhupāda: They will take because people are becoming godless. That is the defect. People are becoming hippies, godless. This material world is full of miseries because most people are godless. Here... Material world means avoiding God. That is the sum and substance of material world. They are trying to avoid, becoming independent of God. That is their endeavor. The scientist, the philosopher, the politician*-everyone is trying that. Therefore they are suffering. Māyā is there. Just like a criminal, if he says "I don't care for government," the police will take care of. That is certain. Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if someone has inquired about God, but can be so overpowered by māyā... *Prabhupāda: No, if you are strong, then māyā will not be able to overpower you. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who is fully surrendered to God, māyā cannot touch him. Devotee (4): How does one become strong? Prabhupāda: That we have given. Be strict in following the regulative principle, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Devotee (4): Just the four regulative principles? Prabhupāda: Yes, no illicit sex, no... This is the method, and chanting is the process. Then you will remain strong. And if you neglect, then you become weak. To remain strong is not difficult, but we don't want to remain strong. That is our decision. Otherwise it is not difficult. But we don't want to remain strong. We voluntarily become weak. Then māyā catches, "Come on." Devotee (2): Is it necessary to see the Deity regularly in order to remain strong? Prabhupāda: Yes, everything necessary as we have prescribed. If you think that it is not necessary, unnecessary, then you under the māyā. Why do you take that, "Is it necessary?" That means you are not strong enough. You cannot follow; therefore you say, "Is it necessary?" You are considering. That means you are becoming prey to māyā. As soon as you ask this, that means you have already fallen a victim of māyā. Devotee (1): Kṛṣṇa says "without doubting." Prabhupāda: Yes. Hari-śauri: So how to get those people who are immersed in māyā to become serious? When we go out and we preach our saṅkīrtana movement, how to get... Prabhupāda: They will become gradually. Not all of a sudden. They are purchasing one book. They will read, and gradually they will be elevated. You go to school, but all of a sudden, you cannot say that "I am M.A." You have to wait. That is called dhairya, utsāhād dhairyāt. One should be very enthusiastic, at the same time, patient. If you think that "I am very enthusiastic; *still, I am not getting the result," be patient. Niścayāt. Be sure the result will come, but be patient. These are the ways. Utsāhād dhairyāt niścayāt tat*-tat-karma-pravartanāt. You have to follow the regulative principles. Sato vṛtteḥ. You should be honest. You are not following, and still, you say "I am devotee." That means you are not honest. Sato vṛtteḥ sādhu-saṅge, and in the association of devotees. Ṣaḍbhir bhaktiḥ prasidhyati. By following these six principles, you advance. This is the Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction. Devotee (1): Sādhana means accepting discipline. *Prabhupāda: Eh, yes. Do you think that solving the problem of birth, death and old age and disease is very easy task? (chuckles) You have to very, very strongly... Those who do not care, that is another thing. They are under these laws, going on. Life after life, they are changing body, again birth, again death, again in the womb of mother. They do not take it seriously, how risky life is that. They do not take it. "Oh, what is that?" Now, in Kali*-yuga, the mother is killing the child. Even within the womb of mother is not safe. This is going on. So they do not take that how this way of life is risky and uncomfortable. They do not take it seriously. To enter again into the womb of mother, how difficult job and troublesome it is, they do not understand it. For want of education. Hari-śauri: So those persons who do not take even their material predicament seriously, then it is the same when they approach, they see our devotees. They do not take us seriously. *Prabhupāda: No, they are given chance. Even they fall down, they guaranteed best life in the next birth, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41], to take birth in devotee's or nice brāhmaṇa's house. So they get again chance. So our point should be why another chance? Finish this business in this life. That is determination. Why another chance? I may be misled again. That should be our determination. "Finish this business, this life. One life let me be strict in following the discipline and regulative principles." This is called tapasya, that "Although it is inconvenient, I must do it to solve my problems." That is determination, dṛḍha*-vrata, firm determination. Devotee (5): They have to come to the temple to be trained up? Prabhupāda: Temple or no temple, you must be firmly determined. You can have God realization under this tree if you have got firm determination. Anywhere you can stay. But temple is the ordinary way, facility. If you are so, I mean to say, elevated, you may not come to temple, but ordinarily, for the neophytes, they must come to the temple. Why he does not come? Does he think that he has become very elevated? That is false. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he was not going to the Jagannātha temple, but Jagannātha was coming to him. So if you are so strong like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, that is another thing. But if you falsely think or imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, then you go to hell. That's all. We should not falsely think that "Now I am advanced and elevated. I can do whatever I like." That is not our... *Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Brahmā created something called self*-deception. Would self-deception mean that if I think I am forced to fall down, but actually I wanted to fall down, but I think, "Oh, I am forced"? Is that self-deception? Prabhupāda: Force? Force means if you violate the rules, then you are forced. If you contaminate some disease, then you are forced to suffer from the disease. If you don't contaminate, then you remain safe. Hari-śauri: But one must come to that point of being serious to recognize the problems of life? Before one can understand your books, the karmī must become serious to understand that he is in misery and that he must get out? Prabhupāda: So without understanding, you were initiated? Do you think? Why you were initiated if you did not understand the seriousness? Why do you take initiation? That means cheating. You do not understand; still, you show that "I am now understanding." [break] Hari-śauri: It seems to be very difficult if they are not very serious about anything... Prabhupāda: No, that is missionary activities, that they do not understand, but you have to make them understand. They are not calling you, "I am suffering. Please come," but it is your business to go and let them know that "You are suffering. You take this method." That is the way of becoming very quickly recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, if you think, "They are not understanding, what is the use of going there? Let me sleep," that is not good. They are not understanding; still, you have to go. Then Kṛṣṇa will take that "He is laboring so hard for My sake." Never mind he is successful. It doesn't matter. But you are working hard for Kṛṣṇa. That is noted down. So our business is to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Whether one man is converted or not converted, that is not our business. We shall try our best. But Kṛṣṇa must see that I am giving service to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is wanted. Not that you have to judge that you have approached so many men; nobody became Kṛṣṇa conscious. Devotee (1): They are so attached. Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is your kindness that you accepted me. But I never expected. I never expected that "These people will accept." I never expected. Hari-śauri: So simply if we rely on Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our only business. Hari-śauri: And if we look for results, then... *Prabhupāda: And we should do our duty as prescribed by the spiritual master. Guru*-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Then both sides, you will be favored, from the spiritual master and from Kṛṣṇa. And that is the success. My Guru Mahārāja was publishing one paper, Dayinika (?) Nadiya Prakash. It was worth two paisa or one paisa. So if a brahmacārī could sell a few copies, he would have been so glad. You see? The collection was not even four annas. Still, he was so glad that "Oh, you have distributed so much." Our business is to carry out the order, not to see success. Success is not so easy. That is not so easy. Hari-śauri: Is this the reason why others who have preceded yourself earlier on, is this the reason why they were not successful, because they were trying to judge the results? Prabhupāda: Who? Hari-śauri: Others who have come before yourself? When they tried to preach in the Western countries? Prabhupāda: They did not try. They came officially, and that's all. Not even tried to preach this. Devotee (1): . Just like Arjuna on the battlefield, you simply had to try for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: [Bg. 18.73] "Yes, I shall carry out Your order, nothing else. Yes, You are asking me to fight. I will fight. That's all." Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, if one goes to the temple, if one attends the temple regularly and inquires from the devotees about the devotional principles, and because of some reason, it's not necessarily... it's not convenient for him to live in the temple at that time, and he is living with people... Prabhupāda: No, no, you live in temple or without temple, if you follow the instruction, that is wanted. If you live without temple and chant sixteen rounds and observe the regulative principle, that's all right. It doesn't require that you should live in the temple. And if you live in the temple and do all nonsense, then what is the use of living in the temple? Devotee: Is it wrong to think of initiation then? Or initiated also? (?) Prabhupāda: Their "thinking" means they are not fixed up. That very word suggest that they are not fixed up. Oh, initiation can take place anywhere. Śrutakīrti: He's saying those that are initiated, must they live in the temple? He's making the... Prabhupāda: No, no, must follow the regulative principle, not that must live in temple. Devotee (6): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can one use marriage to reach back home, go back to Godhead? How can one use the sacrifice of marriage... Prabhupāda: Marriage done, that... (?) Yes, marriage must be done in the temple. What is this sound? [break] This lake is being filled up or...? Devotee (1): ...construction. Devotee (2): They're remodeling the garden, expanding the lake Prabhupāda: Oh. (end) Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne Prabhupāda: ...Mahārāja and his father, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. They wanted to preach. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also wanted to preach. [break] ...book to many Western universities. MacGill University. He had a very strong desire to preach. Then he attempted little. Then his son, my Guru Mahārāja, he was entrusted. He also attempted. He sent his disciple to London. And he wanted me also. Therefore at the last stage of my life, at the age of seventy years (chuckles) I made an attempt that... Our predecessors, they wanted, and they wanted me also to do that. So my other Godbrothers they could not do very well. So let me try. Dr. Copeland: And what is your relationship with the Ba'hai faith? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Copeland: The Ba'hai faith that also preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: They preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I don't think. *Dr. Copeland: You don't know of the Ba'hais? B-'*-h-a-i? Prabhupāda: I have heard the name, but they are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Dr. Copeland: (laughs) Not your kind, but they worship Kṛṣṇa. Not the same kind of consciousness, but they also worship Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: I do not know. Dr. Copeland: You don't know about the Ba'hai religion. Prabhupāda: (To devotees) Do you know the Ba'hai? Madhudviṣa: They have more or less... They accept all religions, and part of their worship is Kṛṣṇa. They have the person of Kṛṣṇa. But the difference is that we accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whereas the Ba'hais... Prabhupāda: That and many others, they also do that. They also worship Jesus Christ. That is... [break] We have no disrespect for anyone. Dr. Copeland: And you've been rather successful in institutionalizing your religion, getting a large number of temples constructed or built or taken over, and a large number of followers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Copeland: Why do you think you are so successful? Prabhupāda: I don't think I am successful, but people say. Dr. Copeland: (laughs) Very good. Prabhupāda: I will be successful when everyone will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. *Dr. Copeland: But in Western countries, where people have to adopt to the different style of dress and a different life*-style altogether, it means that you're asking for a very large commitment from people, and yet they do it. Are you saying that it's the strength of what you're preaching, or are they unhappy with what they've found otherwise? Prabhupāda: No, they look very nice with this dress. Don't you appreciate? Dr. Copeland: Uh, that wasn't in my question, That's... (laughs). Yes, I think it's very nice, I couldn't do it. I wouldn't shave my hair, and I wouldn't dress like that. Prabhupāda: You cannot sacrifice so much. They have sacrificed. Dr. Copeland: Aḥ, I sacrifice up here. Prabhupāda: They have got a spirit of sacrifice. Dr. Copeland: But you ask a great deal of people. So why do you think they're willing to give? *Prabhupāda: No, I ask only four things: no illicit sex, no meat*-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. That's all. But these four things are very, very, difficult for the Western people. That I know. Just see. God consciousness cannot be achieved by any third-class man. One must be the topmost first-class man. Then he can become God conscious. Dr. Copeland: And who decides what is first class? *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is decided by Kṛṣṇa. Find out this verse. Yeṣāṁ tu anta*-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. (Prabhupāda is coughing) Give me water. Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 7.28]. Kṛṣṇa says who can become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That definition is there. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda: So this is not very ordinary thing. Pāpam, sinful life... At the present moment people are very, very much addicted to sinful life. Dr. Copeland: Why? Prabhupāda: Because they are less intelligent; therefore they don't care for death even. Neither they have got any idea what is going to happen after death. Formerly, people were afraid of committing sin. They knew that "After death, I will have to suffer." Now, at the present moment, the rascals are so daring, they do not care what is sin, what is going to happen next life. They do not care. That means less intelligent. Dr. Copeland: What's going to happen to you in the next life? Prabhupāda: My life? According to śāstra, if we have actually developed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are going to Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Copeland: And you are... *Prabhupāda: I may not, but they will go. (laughter) And even it is a failure, then the next life he is guaranteed human life and very nice life. You find out this verse, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga*-bhraṣṭaḥ sañjāyate. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda: Even one is failure. And one who is successful? Then? Janma karma... Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda: This is for the successful, and that is for the unsuccessful. Dr. Copeland: And, while we're on success, how many people in India are becoming like these? Prabhupāda: Many. Dr. Copeland: As many as in the West, or more? Prabhupāda: More. Dr. Copeland: Do you have more temples there than here? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got very... Recently we have very big temple. There are many other temples in Vṛndāvana. Dr. Copeland: And what is your relationship with, say, the Ramakrishna Mission? Prabhupāda: Oh, we have no relationship. We don't accept them as any authority. Dr. Copeland: Why not? Prabhupāda: Because they are not doing according to śāstra. They are doing whimsically. Dr. Copeland: But they are doing very good social work. Prabhupāda: That social work has nothing to do with spiritual work. Dr. Copeland: Does this organization do social work? Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the best social work. We are giving the best education, best knowledge, best hope of next life. And what they are giving? They do not know what is next life even. Dr. Copeland: When you do the translations... Prabhupāda: I have all translated during these ten years. I translated, began translating from 1968, or '9, I was publishing that Back to Godhead paper even from my gṛhastha life, from 1944. Dr. Copeland: And when you do do the translation... Prabhupāda: Then I began translating from 1968 or '69. And I published my first book in 1962. Then next was in 1964. And then the third volume was published in 1965. And then I came to America. And then I translated all these books, whatever you see, about fifty books. This is about eleven hundred pages. Other books are not less than four hundred pages. Dr. Copeland: Oh, yes. I have many in my shelf like these. Where and when did you learn English? Prabhupāda: In Calcutta. I was educated in a college. My professors were all Europeans. Dr Copeland: Which college? Prabhupāda: Scottish Churches' College. You know that? In our time Dr. Watt, he was principal. And I was student of philosophy of Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He was my professor. And our English professor was Mr. Cameron,(?) Mr. Scrimgeour, Mr. Warren. And I was student of economics also. One Mr. Keith, he was also... All our professors were Scotsmen, Englishmen. Dr. Copeland: And after you left the college, were you employed? Prabhupāda: Yes, I was appointed manager of a very big laboratory, Dr. Bose's laboratory. Dr. Copeland: Ah, yes. Prabhupāda: You know? Dr. Copeland: I've heard of it. From another worker. While you were in the college or afterwards, did you participate in any political movements? Prabhupāda: Yes. I joined this Gandhi's. Dr. Copeland: You did? Had you met Gandhi? Prabhupāda: I met several times, but not as personal interview. But I liked his movement, national movement. Dr. Copeland: Why? Prabhupāda: Young men, everyone likes politics. (Dr. Copeland laughs) Actually, later on, I did not like. When I was mature, when I met my Guru Mahārāja, then I thought all these things bogus. It has nothing, no value. Social movement, political movement, they are simply wasting time. Real movement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Copeland: Why do you think a large number of people followed Gandhi? Why did they like him? Prabhupāda: Well, large number of people followed Lenin. They are not important. Neither Lenin is important, nor their follower is important. So I don't think Gandhi's followers are as many as Lenin's. So these things are not important. Dr. Copeland: But don't you look upon him as a religious man? Gandhi, religious man? Prabhupāda: He was a politician. In the garb of. He consolidated the mass of Indian people, becoming a mahātmā, but he was not a mahātmā. Dr. Copeland: Why not? Prabhupāda: No. According to... Just see... Amogha: Mahātmānas mām... *Prabhupāda: Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. We have to judge from this Bhagavad*-gītā. Our test will be Bhagavad-gītā. Madhudviṣa: Read it. Amogha: *Prabhupāda: That*-because you are student of history-Mahatma Gandhi's photograph with Gītā. Did he speak anything about Gītā or Kṛṣṇa in the history of his life? Then how he is mahātmā? Dr. Copeland: People called him that. Prabhupāda: People call, that is another thing. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that vox populi. The people may be asses; *still, their votes are accepted. The people are trained up as the fourth*-class, fifth-class men, and their votes are appre... This is the defect of the modern... They are not trained up as first-class men, and still, their votes are accepted. Therefore, even a very advanced country, America, there was mistake, Nixon. They elected him president. Then they dragged him down. That is the mistake. Yes. Dr. Copeland: Yes, yes. *Prabhupāda: They did not elect a first*-class man, and later on, they could understand. So everywhere it is going on. Vox populi, the people, are less intelligent. They do not know whom to vote. And besides that, votes can be purchased. They do purchase by paying according to the country. So what is the value of this vote? Dr. Copeland: Um, when... *Prabhupāda: Now, what is your opinion? A third*-class, fourth-class man, if they vote, do you think it has any meaning? Dr. Copeland: Well, I don't define the people first, second, third, and fourth class like you do, obviously. Prabhupāda: You don't find? You don't find first person...? Dr. Copeland: Well, I'm not as willing to judge other people. I'm not willing to say whether you're first, second, or third class, just as I'm not willing to say... *Prabhupāda: No. At least, you are educationist, you are professor. According to the modern society, you are one of the first*-class men. Do you think your position and the lower class man, the same? Dr. Copeland: I think everybody has the same amount of intelligence and ability. It's just that some of them get more breaks than others. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Everyone has got the potency, but unless he shows his intelligence, he has no value. Dr. Copeland: Well, yeah, but a lot of people don't have a chance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So those who have no chance to become first*-class men, their vote, what is the value? Dr. Copeland: Ācchā. When you were coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness... *Prabhupāda: According to our Vedic civilization, first*-class men's vote required, who knows things as they are. One who does not know things as they are, what is the use of taking vote from him? Our Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas, first-class men... The qualification of brāhmaṇa, find out. Śamo damaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma... Read. Amogha: *Prabhupāda: This is first*-class man. *Dr. Copeland: I'm not a first*-class man. Prabhupāda: No, that I do not know, but if you have got these qualities... We have to judge by the qualities, not by birth. But since India accepted a brāhmaṇa by birth without these qualities, India's civilization fell down. Dr. Copeland: Ah, that's why. Ah! Pretty! Are you a brāhmaṇa? By birth you're a brāhmaṇa, right? *Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else*-that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa-then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet [SB 7.11.35]. "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Paricarya means service. To accept... [break] So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment. Dr. Copeland: And you're training them to lead? Prabhupāda: Yes, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa will supply everything. Be confident. This is brāhmaṇa. We don't depend. You see for the last ten years our institution going on. We don't depend on anyone else. If you contribute voluntarily, welcome, but we are not dependent on you. This is brahminical class of man. We don't... Find this: śamo damas tapaḥ śaucam. What are they? Śamaḥ? Amogha: Śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca [Bg. 18.42]. You want me to read each word, translate? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Amogha: Śamaḥ*-peacefulness; *damaḥ*-self-control; *tapaḥ*-austerity; *śaucam*-purity; *kṣāntiḥ*-tolerance; *ārjavam*-honesty..." Prabhupāda: Simplicity, honesty. Ārjavam means even an enemy enquires from me, "What is your secret?" I shall say, "Yes, it is... I have no secret. This is my position." This is called ārjavam. Don't keep any secret. So ārjavam, then? *Amogha: "Jñānam*-wisdom." Prabhupāda: Yes, full knowledge. Amogha: "Vijñānam-..." Prabhupāda: Vijñānam means practical application. If one believes God, Kṛṣṇa, and if he believes that Kṛṣṇa is giving food to everyone, even to the elephant and to the ant, then why shall I bother for my food? He must give me. If He is supplying food in the jungle, so many animals, and the elephant eats at a time forty k.g. foodstuff, and the ant within the hole of your room, he is also there. The lizard is there, the rat is there, the snake(?) is there. So Kṛṣṇa is supplying food to everyone. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That is God. He is supplying the necessities of life to everyone. So what I have done that He will not give me food? And I am engaged my life for His service. If I have no such confidence, then where is Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Why shall I flatter others for my food? So this is brāhmaṇa's... "I must have full confidence in Kṛṣṇa. And God is so able, so competent, that He can feed millions and trillions and unlimited number of living entities, and I have dedicated my life for Kṛṣṇa's service, and I will starve? Dr. Copeland: Not by your measure. Prabhupāda: What is that? Amogha: He says not by your measure. In your terms that is not. *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, actually, that is the fact. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Find out. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān [SB 2.2.5]. Madhudviṣa: First volume? *Prabhupāda: Yes, find out the verse from the yellow... Yes. Kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana*-durmadāndhān. The verse begins: cirāṇi kiṁ na santi diśanti. Madhudviṣa: "C." *Prabhupāda: Cirāṇi kiṁ na pathi santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ naivāṅghripāḥ para*-bhṛtaḥ sarito 'py aśuṣyan, ruddhā guhāḥ kim... *Madhudviṣa: Cīra*-vāsā? Prabhupāda: No, cirāṇi. Cirāṇi kiṁ na santi. Madhudviṣa: It is "C"? It begins with "Ci"? *Prabhupāda: Yes, "c*-h-i," or "c-i." Then it must be in the second part, Second Canto. Find out the Second Canto. If one reads Bhāgavatam thoroughly... Madhudviṣa: Cirāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi? *Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. Vidyā*-bhāgavatāvadhiḥ. Then his education is finalized. Vidyāvadhiḥ, vidyā avadhiḥ. The limit of education is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Find out. Madhudviṣa: *Prabhupāda: That... Saintly person should depend on Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is not supplying cloth, all right, find out some torn, thrown*-out cloth on the street. And food? Go to the tree. Take some fruit. And for water, go to the river. There is sufficient water. And for shelter, go to the cave. So these are already arranged. And above, over and above, do you think that the Supreme Lord does not take care of the person who has fully surrendered unto Him? Then why you are going to flatter this rich class of men for your food? This is the... And that is the... Especially throughout the history in India you will find, many hundred thousands of these sādhus. They do not go anywhere. I have seen at Allahabad, Kumbha-melā. They take bath in the Ganges and sit down in their place, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, without caring wherefrom the food will come. They sit down. And everything is coming. Still in India, if there is information, even in the remotest villages, "There is a saintly person has come in the village," they will approach. Dr. Copeland: Have you done that? Have you wandered around from village to village? Prabhupāda: Not village to village, but town to town. Even in foreign countries. Dr. Copeland: (laughs) Even in Australia too. To get back more to the origins of the movement, why do you follow the teachings of Caitanya rather than say Vallabha or Rāmānuja or Rāmānanda? *Prabhupāda: No, there is no difference. Rather, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is the summary of all Vaiṣṇava*-Rāmānuja, Rāmānanda, Madhvācārya, and Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka. There are four sampradāyas. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu follows everyone. There is no difference much. Dr. Copeland: Oh, you found. How about Kabhir?(?) Prabhupāda: Kabhir is not in the sampradāya. Dr. Copeland: No. Prabhupāda: He is upstart. (Dr. Copeland laughs) He says mālāja pare śālā.(?) He is abusing a person who chants Hare Kṛṣṇa. He is such a rascal. Mālāja pare śālā. Śālā is abusive language. But he said mālāja pare śālā. All the Vaiṣṇava sampradāyas, they chant the beads, and he is speaking śālā, abusive language. How fallen he is! That is the difficulty, that our system is accepting the previous ācārya, authority. So anyone who does not follow this principle, he is upstart. He is not accepted as authority. So Kabhir is not an authority. Dr. Copeland: Does that mean you go back to Śaṅkarācārya? *Prabhupāda: No. Śaṅkarācārya is also not authority because he does not follow the ācāryas. Of course, Māyāvāda philosophy was there always, but that was never taken very seriously. Vyāsadeva is the authority. So Vyāsadeva is not Māyāvādī. He is Vaiṣṇava. We belong to Vyāsadeva's sampradāya, Brahma*-sampradāya. Therefore we worship our spiritual master as Vyāsadeva's representative, vyāsa-pūjā. Dr. Copeland: And how about in the south? Do you have many... Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere. South is the same thing. Dr. Copeland: Surely not as many as in the north, or as much? *Prabhupāda: Well, that is the influence of the time. Otherwise, everything is there in the Bhagavad*-gītā, and anyone can follow. Either south or north, it doesn't matter. Or east and west. But if you don't follow, and still you say that "I belong to this sampradāya," that is another... Dr. Copeland: And when you translate the texts that you use, they come from Caitanya? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Copeland: So you don't worry about... Prabhupāda: We have no worries. Because we have got... Dr. Copeland: I don't have any worries either. (laughs) That's good.(?) Prabhupāda: Because we follow the standard. Just like a small child. He follows his parents, and he knows, "My parents are there." Therefore he has no worries. Is it not? Dr. Copeland: Well, no. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: So we shall remain like a child, being protected by our predecessor. Then there is no worries. And if you want to manufacture something of your concocted brain, then there is worries. Just like Gandhi. Gandhi wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad*-gītā, which is impossible. Therefore he had worries, because he wanted to prove something which is not in the Bhagavad-gītā, and still, he took Bhagavad-gītā as evidence. Dr. Copeland: But my point is there are other texts as well as Caitanya's texts. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dr. Copeland: There are other texts, other Gītās. Amogha: Other versions of the *Gītā* besides Lord Caitanya's. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not authorized. Therefore we say specifically, "Bhagavad*-gītā As It is," no interpretation. Here Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So we preach that thing. We preach that "You be Kṛṣṇa conscious." Man-manāḥ: "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says. And we are teaching these disciples, "Always think of Kṛṣṇa." There is no difference. We don't create. And therefore it is successful. Others, they created their own concoction; *it was never successful. Before me, so many swamis came to the Western countries. They were not successful. Not a single person was Kṛṣṇa conscious, in the history. In the history of the last two hundred years so many swamis are coming in the Western countries. They also speak on Bhagavad*-gītā, but not a single person was Kṛṣṇa conscious. And since we have presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, hundreds and thousands. This is the proof, that they presented something concoction. It was, what is called, impotent. Dr. Copeland: (laughs) You can't just say that they don't exist. They're there. And surely there were other people... *Prabhupāda: No, that is... That was... About hundred years ago Vivekananda came, and he stayed in New York, but these people... When I came, I asked, "What is...? Do you know Vivekananda?" They said, "No, we do not know." I had to find out, search out, where is Vivekananda's center. It was not very prominent. Nobody was going. So for hundred years they worked, this Ramakrishna Mission. They could not establish even half a dozen centers in America. And I established forty centers within six years. And in each center there is devotees not less than twenty*-five, up to 225. In Los Angeles we purchased one church. The church was sold because nobody was coming. And since we have taken... If you sometimes go to Los Angeles, you will see it is packed always. The same people, the same church-why it is packed now? And why it was sold without any attendance? What is the difference? I have not brought these men from India; neither I brought that church from India. The church was there, and these people were there. Dr. Copeland: Well, when I first came in, I asked you why were you so successful, and you said, "I don't know how you measure success," and now you're measuring success by numbers, and that's not fair. That's not logical. Prabhupāda: No, my standard of success is little different. Of course, this is success. Everyone is saying I am successful. So it is not unsuccessful. But my standard of success is little different. So even if it not fully successful, still, the results are there. Dr. Copeland: Ah, fair enough. *Prabhupāda: That is called payi*-nukuta-nyāya.(?) And when I find full successful, just imagine what is that. This is partial success. Dr. Copeland: (laughing) That's called "touche." Prabhupāda: This is the logic, that the partial success is this, and when it will be full successful, you cannot imagine that, what is. Dr. Copeland: (Tape garbled) Ācchā. I don't want to ... Prabhupāda: Give him some prasāda. *Madhudviṣa: One of the... Just from understanding, speaking to Amogha, is one of the doctor's dilemmas is that he is reading your Bhagavad*-gītā, but his colleagues do not appreciate your Bhagavad-gītā so much. He, sometimes he is confronted with the people who are tending more towards the impersonal school of thought, I think, and they have criticisms of your Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So he... Dr. Copeland: That's why I was asking. To see how you would reply to that. Prabhupāda: First of all, you think that Kṛṣṇa is speaking as person. What right you have got to say that He is imperson? Dr. Copeland: I don't say. Prabhupāda: No, anyone, anyone. What Kṛṣṇa is saying, He is saying as a person. Aham. You know the Sanskrit word? Aham, "I," first person. So why these foolish interpreters, they interpret "imperson"? What right they have got? They have no right. Suppose you are teaching something from your own point of view. What right I have got to say that "This is not Mr. Such and such opinion. What I say, that is opinion"? Is that very good judgment? You are saying something from your point of view, and I poke my nose that "This should be spoken like this." Is this honesty? Dr. Copeland: It's a difference of opinion. Prabhupāda: No, why should you... I showed opinion on your book? If I have got opinion, I publish another book. Why should I interpret, why shall I poke my nose in your business? Dr. Copeland: Yeah, but the dialogue is how you learn. Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: No, that is most dishonest. Oh, yes. You cannot interpret my book in your own way. That is not allowed. No gentleman will do that. You, if you have got a different view, you put your view in your own book. Don't drag my book. That is honesty. And because my book is popular, you take advantage of my book, and you interpret in your own way... This is most dishonest. You cannot do that. Dr. Copeland: No, but when you have different types of things... Prabhupāda: Different types we may have, but Kṛṣṇa's book, what Kṛṣṇa is saying, it should be presented as Kṛṣṇa says. Dr. Copeland: Yeah, but then you think that you know what Kṛṣṇa says. *Prabhupāda: No, I say, "Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is." Dr. Copeland: Yeah, and other people think they know, too. *Prabhupāda: No, how they know? Kṛṣṇa says man*-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, simple thing. Find out this verse. What is the translation? Amogha: "Always think of Me and become My..." Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me." How you can say that "Don't think of Kṛṣṇa"? Is that very honesty? No, no, Kṛṣṇa may be wrong. That is another thing. Dr. Copeland: Ah, okay. I'll buy that. (laughs) Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that "Kṛṣṇa says something else." Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me." So we have to present that "Kṛṣṇa says, you always think of Kṛṣṇa." That is honesty. And if I say, "No, no, you don't think of Kṛṣṇa," that is dishonesty. That is dishonesty. We are fighting against that. Why should you poke your nose in the statement of Kṛṣṇa? If you have got different views, you put your own book. Dr. Copeland: Mmm, we're not really arguing about the same thing. I'm saying that if, say, somebody says Christ in the Bible says something... Prabhupāda: You must say that "Christ says like this." That is honesty. Dr. Copeland: Yeah, okay. Prabhupāda: If you say, "No, no, what Christ says it is wrong. What I am saying, it is right." Then it is dishonest. Dr. Copeland: Mohammed says... Prabhupāda: Anyone. Mohammed says something. You have to say, "Mohammed says this." You cannot say, "What Mohammed says, it is not right. What I say it is right." You cannot say that. That is dishonest. You say in your own words. Why should you bring Mohammed or Kṛṣṇa or Christ to say your words? Did they come to support your views? Dr. Copeland: No, I don't do that. *Prabhupāda: No, you do not do that. You do not do that. You will see Dr. Radhakrishnan says. When this, he is making comment on it, he said, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto māṁ namaskuru, and Dr. Radha..., he says "not to Kṛṣṇa." How he is misleading people! He is a great scholar, and he says "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, to the person." Just see. This dishonesty is going on. What right he has got to say like that? Did He, did He, Kṛṣṇa, left His Bhagavad-gītā to be interpreted by a rascal, "Not to Kṛṣṇa"? This is rascaldom. You cannot say. You must say what Kṛṣṇa says, if you take Bhagavad-gītā. But if you have got a different views, then you write your own book. Present, as many others philosophers are doing. I don't agree with you. You don't agree with me. That's all right. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. You cannot become a big philosopher unless you have got a different views. That is the way. If I don't defy you, then I am not a big philosopher. Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter. Give me water. Madhudviṣa: Fourth Chapter, 34th verse. Amogha: "This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost." *Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you give up the ācārya*-paramparā system, then it is lost. Kṛṣṇa says that man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. All the ācāryas will say like that, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. And Dr. Radhakrishnan, "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see the fun. He has become more than the ācāryas. So we reject immediately. He thinks himself too proud that he defies the ācāryas. You see? This is the defect. The whole Bhagavad-gītā is spoken on the battlefield. Gandhi says it is nonviolence. Just see. (Dr. Copeland laughs) So we have to follow these people, do you mean to say? Dr. Copeland: If you're measuring your success by the numbers of people, he had a lot of people too. Dr. Copeland: You should add humor to honesty. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Amogha: He said as one of the qualifications, we should add good humor, to honesty. He says you have good humor. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One who has got knowledge, he is humorous also. Dr. Copeland: Ah. (laughs) Oh. Well, what do we do now? *Prabhupāda: Take prasāda. Prasāde sarva*-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate. Take the whole plate. Dr. Copeland: Take the whole plate? Prabhupāda: Yes. Amogha: Don't miss out on tulasī leaf. You can take it home with you. Have it for breakfast. [break] Dr. Copeland: Now we'll try and tell him I didn't really disagree with him or with you. Prabhupāda: What is that? Dr. Copeland: I don't disagree that when you say the texts that you follow is the text that you believe in. All I'm saying is that there are other texts, and surely there would be some value in studying the other texts. But he's disagreeing with that, so... Madhudviṣa: I was reiterating the point that we only follow the ācāryas, and there is maybe a slight different approach within the ācāryas, but the conclusion is the same. The conclusion is that we must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And we don't place too much value in people who are commentating on the scriptures who don't follow the ācāryas. We don't place that much... *Prabhupāda: No, that is the statement in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. We have to receive the knowledge through paramparā, disciplic succession. "And because the paramparā is broken, therefore it is lost," Kṛṣṇa says. So we cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā or any Vedic literature, which is called śruti... Śruti means one hears from the ācārya. That is the system. *Amogha: Usually in modern education they have the idea called "well*-rounded point of view." They want to take some from here, from there, from that one and that one, that one, and then think about them all, and come up with a conclusion. So he is thinking it doesn't fit with their pattern of reasoning, how we take from one source and get the proper conclusion. They think they have to get from many sources and compare. Prabhupāda: How... I can reply that if you want to know who is your father, then you will have to take the knowledge from many sources, by votes, that who is your father? Dr. Copeland: (laughing) It's not the same thing. *Prabhupāda: Now he says, "not the same." You cannot offer reason. You have to take from one source, from the mother. That's all. You cannot take votes, "Can you say who is my father?" He will say this... He'll say, "He is your father." No, it is not the way. The way is to take the information from the right source, not take the votes of rascals and fools. That is not the way. One source. Even from scientific point of view, mathematics, "two plus two equal to four," you have to take from one source. Any mathematician will say like that. Nobody will say, "No, two plus two equal to five." "No, two plus two equal to three." Nobody will say. "Two plus two equal to four," everyone will say. This is not the way of securing knowledge, from here, there... Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not approve. And our Kṛṣṇa, He said, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ, evaṁ paramparā*-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. That is the recommendation. And because that source is now missing, therefore it is lost. This process of knowledge, that we take knowledge from anyone and everyone, his opinion, what is that? Dr. Copeland: That was my point, only that. Everybody should have an opinion. Prabhupāda: Everyone has got his opinion, that is different thing. But not that everyone has got the knowledge. Dr. Copeland: Well, that's why we come to you, for knowledge. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dr. Copeland: But I come to you for knowledge, and then I go to other people for knowledge too. Prabhupāda: That you go, but if you want real, right knowledge, then you must approach the man who knows right, not that you find out anyone and everyone and find out Dr. Copeland: I'm done. Amogha: I'll give you a show around if you like. Dr. Copeland: Okay, fine. I thank you very much for your time. And when do you come back again? Prabhupāda: When? Dr. Copeland: When do you come back to Australia again? Madhudviṣa: January. Hopefully in January. Will session be in then? Dr. Copeland: Oh, no, that won't work. Madhudviṣa: When is session? Dr. Copeland: Session will end in October and start again in March. But if when you come back in January, they tell me that you're here, I'll come talk to you again if you want to talk to me again. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are always welcome. Educated man like you is welcome. Dr. Copeland: Oh, yes. (laughs) Keep up the good humor. (Devotees laugh) Prabhupāda: Jaya. Dr. Copeland: Namaskāra. Prabhupāda: Somebody else was to come? Madhudviṣa: I think one more was to come. (Devotees talk amongst themselves in background) Śrutakīrti: So he "had to run." Madhudviṣa: He said at the end, "I am done." (laughs) Prabhupāda: I am done? Madhudviṣa: Yeah, he said, "I am done." Prabhupāda: What is that meaning? *Madhudviṣa: It means that you have finished him. (Prabhupāda laughs) They are... They have such a misunderstanding of the philosophy coming from India. When they come to see you they think that you will be very liberal*-minded because they have received this liberal-mindedness from so many other bogus swamis, and when they come to see you, you are very conservative. You will not accept anyone else. So they cannot agitate their mind. They cannot do their muni thing. So many other swamis come, and they accept this, accept that, do this, and do that, and simply stress, "The follower is right." Prabhupāda: They will say to him, "Love humanity." Madhudviṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: And this is very palatable. "Oh, Swami is for humanity." He is a rascal, he does not know. "Love humanity. Do not love Kṛṣṇa. Love humanity." And then people believe him. "By loving humanity, you love Kṛṣṇa or God." These things are very palatable. This is Vivekananda's philosophy. And most people say like that. "Love humanity." Oh, why humanity? Why not tiger? That they shall not. All bogus. Don't be misled by the bogus. Stick to your own principles. That's all. People may come or may not come. We don't care for them. We must speak the right truth. Why "people not coming"? People are not coming? We are getting more and more devotees. (end) Morning Walk -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne Madhudviṣa: ...cannot become a medical practitioner by simply reading the books. He must study under a medical practitioner. So in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books? Prabhupāda: No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you have to contact with the author always. Devotee: Just like the textbooks are not written by the teachers; they're written by other professors. Devotee: Usually you don't even meet the author. Prabhupāda: Simply one who knows the subject matter, he can explain. Madhudviṣa: But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides... *Prabhupāda: No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. Not necessarily the author is required to be present there. [break] ...to study from a medical man, I never said you have to study from the author. Or one who understood the author's purpose. Just like we are explaining Bhagavad*-gītā as it is. Not that one has to learn directly from Kṛṣṇa. One who has understood Kṛṣṇa, from him. That is paramparā system. Madhudviṣa: Also in the lecture last night, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that after the water subsides, then the trees come out, and then the insects, then the birds. That would indicate that the creation takes place in stages? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Madhudviṣa: It would indicate that the creation of this universe takes place in stages, over quite a long period of time, and this is what the scientists also claim. Darwin's theory is similar to that, that first there was water, then vegetation came up, and then gradually, gradually, each and every species evolved, like that. So is there some correlation between those? *Prabhupāda: But the varieties of creation, not that everything is coming like that. Just like Brahmā was first created, the first intelligent man. So although there was water, he was above water. He was on the lotus flower, which is not in the water. So that is also creation. So suppose this part is not covered by water*-you see grass. But where there is lake there is no grass. So both things are there. Somewhere where there is water, unless the water is dried up, there is no grass. But somewhere you will find, immediately, grass. But there is no water. Or above water. So far the material elements are concerned, that is this stage. But the material elementary presentation, in different places, different way. Madhudviṣa: From the *Bhāgavatam* we understand, though, that Brahmā first created human species of life. Prabhupāda: Yes, from him. Madhudviṣa: So if he created the human species of life, how is the... Prabhupāda: No, that other's creation was there. Just like Lord Śiva. He began to create all demons. The Brahmā stopped it. So somebody was creating demons, somebody was creating animals. Madhudviṣa: Oh, different Manus, uh, different procreators were creating different types. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: Paramahaṁsa was... we were discussing this morning about the species of life. We understood that there is actually all the species of life on this one planet, or some species don't exist here? Prabhupāda: No, everywhere the same process. Everywhere there are living entities in different forms. Śrut akī rti: The 8,400,000 species is for the whole universe or for each planet? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, whole universe. Devotee: So not all of those species are on this planet. Prabhupāda: No, all of them are there. Devotee: On this planet. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: And the demigods we cannot see. Like the demigods, the higher human species, we cannot see. Prabhupāda: You, why do you believe on your seeing? That is the defect. That is the defect of the Westerners. They are very deficient; still they say, "I cannot see." What is your seeing power? Suppose if Nārada comes, some demigods come, but you cannot see. Just like when Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva appeared, Prahlāda was seeing. "Is your God here?" "Yes." And he could not see. So why do you believe so much on your seeing? You have to attain seeing power. That is very good example, Prahlāda... Hiraṇyakaśipu asking Prahlāda, "Where is your God?" "My God is everywhere." "He is on the pillar?" "Yes." So he was seeing, but he was not seeing. He became angry and broke the pillar. "Let me see, where is your God." This is the position. So one has to create the eyes to see things. Not that whatever eyes you have got you can see everything. No. Just like motorcar is being driven, a child is seeing that the car is running automatically. And the father is seeing, "No, there is driver." Madhudviṣa: The demons are trying to go to the heavenly planets by building their skyscrapers higher and higher. Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa's, Rāvaṇa's staircase for going to the heaven. He promised that "Oh, what is the use of austerity? I shall make a staircase directly. You can go." As their... It is the same, Rāvaṇa's staircase and the modern attempt to go to the moon planet, the same thing. They will never be able to go, but imagining that "We shall do it." The same process, Rāvaṇa's process. For how many years they are going? Since 1950? Devotee: To the moon expedition? Prabhupāda: Yes, moon expedition. Devotee: Maybe 1955. Madhudviṣa: 1955. Devotee: The first moon landing was 1961. Prabhupāda: That is beginning. First of all they sent dog. (laughter) Madhudviṣa: Space dog. Space mouse. Prabhupāda: Huh? Space mouse. Devotee: Space monkey also. Prabhupāda: So since 1955 even. So twenty years, what they have done? Devotee: Spent billions of dollars. Prabhupāda: Yes, simply they have brought little dust, that's all. Madhudviṣa: Now they have found that that same dust is here on the earth. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply propaganda. They are not going. Now the Russian scientist and American scientist are combined. Because both of them thieves, so one thief is asking, "Don't expose me. I will not expose you, so that our business will go on." This is the way. "Let us combine together and cheat these rascals, and otherwise, if you expose me, then I will expose you. Then our business will stop." Devotee: They are cooperating. Prabhupāda: Cooperating. Thief, thief's cooperation. Devotee: In the *Bhāgavatam* in Canto Two, it's mentioned here that without discrimination both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees in the Lord's personal abode. I was wondering if you could explain how this is possible. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the explanation of the śāstra. Those who are devotees... You can see the devotees, they are gods, demigods. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daivaḥ. Viṣṇu-bhakta, those who are devotees of Viṣṇu, Vaiṣṇava, they are demigods. So why do you say we do not see the demigods? Madhudviṣa: It also says the demons. *Prabhupāda: Demons, those who are not devotees. Viṣṇu*-bhakto bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. Those who are opposing these Vaiṣṇavas, they are asuras. Madhudviṣa: But how is it that a demon is worshiping the Lord? It says in the *Bhāgavatam*, he just read, that the demons are also worshiping the Lord in His personal abode. Prabhupāda: Yes. When the demon is promoted to the Vaikuṇṭha, they also become. Just like you are all now Vaiṣṇava. (laughter) Why don't you compare with yourself? The others are seeing, "What these mlecchas, yavanas, how they can become Vaiṣṇava?" They are seeing like that. Therefore they object. The Vṛndāvana, "How these Europeans can worship Deity?" They are protesting. Devotee: We can show them this verse. Prabhupāda: Well, there are many verses. When one is qualified, he is no longer demon. [break] ...big, big sannyāsīs. So I was a gṛhastha, they are now saying, "How this gṛhastha is doing? He was a gṛhastha. He never lived with us." They are saying in that way. [break] Tree has spread the roots solid standing. Just see how carefully. Madhudviṣa: In the courtyard back at the temple I would like to grow one nim tree. Would that be nice? Prabhupāda: Nim tree, how you can get? Madhudviṣa: I think we can grow. Get some seed from India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Scientists cannot purify the sea water and use it profusely. Why they are depending on rain? Let them purify it and take so much water. Devotee: It's a very costly process, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore I am asking. Madhudviṣa: Kṛṣṇa is doing it. He is taking the water from the sea and putting it up in the sky, and it becomes very pure. Prabhupāda: Millions and millions of tons water taken and distributed. Why their scientists so proud of their achievement? What they can do? Madhudviṣa: Hm. It is amazing. There is no factory in the sky to purify the water. Simply by the evaporation of the sun, the water is held up in the sky, and immediately it comes down pure. Prabhupāda: And it is stored on the mountain head and it comes down. Eternal supply. Whole year's supply through the rivers, huge water. You have seen that, what is name, Niagara Falls? Madhudviṣa: Yes. You have seen? (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Yes. Huge water. There are many falls like that. Clean, clear, nice, sweet water is coming. There is sweet*-water sea also. Madhudviṣa: In the sea. Prabhupāda: No, not here. In the sky. There is sweet water, very sweet, nice water, drinking water, sea. Sea of ghee, sea of yogurt, sea of milk. Everything is there. Madhudviṣa: There is a government house. Simply a monument now. Prabhupāda: The governor lives there? Madhudviṣa: Yes. They still let them fly the flag, the British flag. Prabhupāda: British flag? Madhudviṣa: They still let them fly the British flag on top of the house. Prabhupāda: They have disconnected the British? Madhudviṣa: Yes, but there is some traditional respect. [break] When you were speaking with the priest yesterday, he was saying the chanting is material because it comes out of the mouth and it's made like a material sound vibration. Would it be possible for them to run scientific tests on the chanting, the sound of Hare Kṛṣṇa, to make a distinction between that sound and let's say the sound of an automobile's horn? Would that be perceptible? Prabhupāda: No, the same sound. Sound is the same; *when you are impure, this is material. Just like the tongue is the same, but when you are suffering from jaundice, you are tasting sugar as bitter, and when you will be cured, then the same tongue will taste it is sweet. So it depends on the purification of the body. Whole this bhakti*-yoga or any yoga, the whole system is purification. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Our existence is now impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age, and disease. And when it is purified, without any contamination, then there is no birth, death, old age. In diseased condition you cannot relish. Even if you are given actually rasagullā you will not taste it very nice. If there is no appetite, even it is rasagullā, it is useless. Spiritual life means curing the contamination of material disease. That is spiritual life. And when you are purified, you relish the spiritual taste. Madhudviṣa: That is a subjective experience. When you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa you can say, "Oh, I feel good," but to someone who won't chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if there was some objective way of measuring the difference between the Hare Kṛṣṇa sound and the sound of, let's say, someone's name. Prabhupāda: No, the sound is the same. I gave you the example. The tongue is the same, but according to your condition of life you taste differently. Tongue is not different. But if you are diseased, then with this tongue you taste something else. And if you are in healthy condition, with the same tongue you can taste differently. Devotee: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the sound is the same, does that mean that when you become fully purified you will also see the sound of an automobile horn as transcendental? *Prabhupāda: Yes, this is transcendental, this microphone, because it is being used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose. The same flower, when you use it for sense gratification, it is material. The same flower when you offer to Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. The flower is not different, but by the different use it becomes material and spiritual. I think I have said many times that there is actually no material existence. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means it has no actual existence. We create an atmosphere. That is māyā. Atmosphere of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. Anartha. Anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam [SB 1.7.6]. If this park is given to us, we can immediately make it Vaikuṇṭha. We know how to do it. But it is not given to us. The same electric energy is creating heater and cooler. For the cooler there is no different electric energy. And for the heater there is no different*-the same electric. Similarly, the material and spiritual is coming from Kṛṣṇa's energy. Madhudviṣa: Some people want to artificially jump to that stage of seeing everything is Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: No. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19]. That stage is attained after many many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate. When one is actually wise, he can see, "Oh, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, everything is Kṛṣṇa. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is very rare." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛ... [Bg. 9.13]. At that time he is under the control of spiritual energy. And what is the sign? Bhajanty ananya*-manasaḥ. He has no other business than to render service to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is that? Śrutakīrti: It says this tree is dangerous in a high wind. Devotee: It will break. Prabhupāda: Oh. And this path is not dangerous? (laughter) Everything is dangerous in the material world. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām [SB 10.14.58]. In every step there is danger. That is material life. [break] ...they claim equal rights man and woman. Why in the lavatory they are different? Madhudviṣa: They also want to have the same there. Prabhupāda: Why there is difference? Ladies and gents. Why not equal right? Śrutakīrti: In some of our modern universities they are doing that. Prabhupāda: Advancing. Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Just see, foolishness. But at least somewhere there is no equal right in the lavatory. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greeting someone) I have received your letter, you can see me. [break] (Conversation continues in the car) This too much intermingling of woman means the path of hell. Therefore the restriction is that only the married couple can freely mix, not others. Mahat*-sevāṁ dvār... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They are not interested associating with devotees. They are interested associating with man or woman, that's all. Woman is interested to associate with man, and man is interested to associate with woman. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Therefore the civilization is becoming hellish. It is already said in the śāstra. One should associate with spiritually advanced men, but that is not being done. Now the woman is hankering after man, man is hankering after woman. Yoṣit saṅg... Yoṣit means for sense gratification. Tamo-dvāram. This is the path of darkness. Madhudviṣa: Yes. They remain celibate. He was saying that it is a personal preference. Devotee: They have no general rule. It's just that if you want to be celibate, then that's very nice, but if you want to have sex life... Prabhupāda: Then why they have recommended this, unless there is some benefit? Śrutakīrti: Well, that knowledge has been lost through the years. A few hundred years ago, many of the celibates were also vegetarian, but all that has changed. *Prabhupāda: That means they are gliding down towards hell, that's all. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi*-saṅgam. Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement, spiritual advancement. Yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. This is Coca-cola, everywhere. [break] ... mukti, liberation, and the word salvation is the same? Then what is the meaning of salvation? Devotee: Salvation means to be saved, liberation. Prabhupāda: Then what do they mean by that liberation? Madhudviṣa: Salvation means to be saved by Jesus. Saved by Jesus means to... Prabhupāda: So what is the platform of that saving? Madhudviṣa: To go to heaven, spiritual world. Prabhupāda: There is idea of spiritual world? Madhudviṣa: Well, there is kingdom of God, but they have vague idea. They say no man has seen God, nor has he seen His kingdom. Prabhupāda: Then how Jesus saw? Śrutakīrti: Well, he was not of this world. When they say no man of this world has seen... Prabhupāda: So anyone who is not of this world, he can see. That we say also. Devotee: Yes. Madhudviṣa: But they say that no man has seen it nor described it. Prabhupāda: No man has seen it, then how Jesus says that there is kingdom of God? Madhudviṣa: He said there is the kingdom of God, but he never described it. *Prabhupāda: Because you cannot understand it, you rascals. He said that "Thou shall not kill" and you killed him. You are so intelligent. "And first of all let us kill this man who is advising 'Thou shall not kill.' " Your intelligence is so sharp. Guru*-māra-vidyā. First of all kill the guru. That is called guru-māra-vidyā. Guru advised that you take food in goodness, sāttvika. So he first of all advised that don't take fish, just like we are advising, meat, eggs, don't take. Then they thought that "The cow is very pure. Cow is very pure, so let us eat cow, sāttvika." Śrutakīrti: That is pure, sāttvika. Devotee: "Every part of the cow is pure, so we can eat every part of it." *Prabhupāda: So when Guru Mahārāja inquired that "You have given up everything bad?" "Yes, now we are eating cow." "What?" "No, it is sāttvika." "No, no, no, no, no. You cannot eat even." Then they thought, "Then what we shall eat? Guru Mahārāja is sāttvika, most sāttvika. So let us eat him." (laughter) So it is called guru*-māra-vidyā. "For sāttvika eating, let us eat Guru Mahārāja." This is intelligence. "Why so much botheration seeking here and there? The Guru Mahārāja is there." (end) Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne Prabhupāda: ...defect of the Western country is practically there is no social structure. The father, mother, they divorce, and the children become careless. Most cases this is the defect. Director: Happens, yes. Prabhupāda: I have seen many of my students, their family, whole family disrupt on account of father and mother, even in old age, divorce. I have seen Brahmānanda's mother. His father was very... still living. Very good businessman, very nice family, good income. All of a sudden the father and mother disagreed, they divorce. The sons were somewhere; the daughters were somewhere. Director: That's cases we deal with. Adoption, and... Prabhupāda: And the father married again, the mother married again. They were not happy, and the business also closed. So by one instance I can understand that how in the Western countries people become out of social structure. The root cause is godlessness. Root cause. Director: And now divorce is getting easier too, isn't it? Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation. Director: But it would be very difficult for the people who start out with us. Would be possible with the kids that start out with us. Prabhupāda: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman. Director: What can you do if society wants it? Society wants it that way. Prabhupāda: Society... that's like your child wants to go to hell. But it is not the duty of the father to allow him to go to hell. Society want... Because the society does not know, the government does not know how to uplift the position of the human being. They do not know it. They know that the animals and we are the same. They simply loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed, that's all. Finished civilization. I remain animal, but my advancement is because I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now. But the Vedic civilization is not. The animal must change the consciousness. He must be trained up a human being. Just that is... You say. Devotee: Prabhupāda: So, people should be trained up. Director: Hmm. Excuse me, what do you do this (Indistinct. Talks with other devotees about something) Prabhupāda: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize. Director: But not our people all do. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Director: Not our clients all do. Prabhupāda: Yes, they will do. If regular institution runs on with all facility... We get so many devotees come here, after some time they become dedicated devotees. The method must be there. This is... We are increasing; our movement is not decreasing. Just like we have opened a temple here. There was no temple, but we have got a nice temple. In this way all over the world our movement is increasing; it is not decreasing. I came from India alone in New York, 1965. So for one year I had no place to stay, I had no means to eat. I was loitering practically, living in some friend's house and some friend's house. Then gradually it developed, people. I was chanting in a Square in New York alone, full three hours. What is that, Tompkinson Square? Yes. You been in New York? So that was my beginning. Then gradually people came. You were in some club, what is that? Madhudviṣa: California? Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: In ranch. Prabhupāda: Ranch? Madhudviṣa: That Morningstar? Prabhupāda: Ah, ha, ha. Madhudviṣa: Yes. (laughs) Prabhupāda: (laughs) That was another brothel. Madhudviṣa: Hippie farm, you came there. Prabhupāda: So there, and I went there. The proprietor, the organizer, he took me there. So I think if we, if you are serious, let us combinedly open an institution where people should be trained up how to become first class. Children should be trained up. That will make a solution. Director: Must change society then. Prabhupāda: No, no change. Let society what it is. We train up some children as we are doing in Dallas, and some men also. Just like we have trained them. It is possible. No. This is practical example. Just like you were in a den, Morningstar. Director: Have many of your gentlemen been delinquency in your life? Madhudviṣa: Delinquency? Director: Yeah. Have you been involved in troubles with the law before you joined? Madhudviṣa: Oh, many of the devotees. Director: Have you? Madhudviṣa: Oh, yes. Director: You've been in trouble some, have you? Madhudviṣa: Yes. Devotee: We have one boy here who spent nine months in a penitentiary. Prabhupāda: This is practical. We can stop. Just like they have become saintly person. Everyone... India they are surprised that "How you have made these Europeans, Americans like this?" They are surprised. Because in India the brāhmaṇas and others, they were under impression that "These Western people, they are hopeless. They cannot be any advanced religionist or spiritual." So when they see we have got many temples in India, that they are worshiping Deity and managing everything, chanting, dancing, they are surprised. Many swamis came before me, but they could not transform. But it is not I who have transformed, but the method is so nice that they became transformed. Director: But people will say a very small percentage of the population. *Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: "Please accept me." The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don't mind, I don't find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in sometimes before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man*-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character? Director: But homosexual is a sickness. Devotee: He said it's an illness. Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says. Prabhupāda: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex. Director: Pardon? *Prabhupāda: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man*-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Director: What you people say what ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else? Prabhupāda: I am giving the example ideal character. Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion. *Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat*-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is final. Director: You don't think the patients have any mind of their own? *Prabhupāda: They have mind, but that is deprecated mind. Just like madman, he has got his mind, but what is the value of that mind? You are not going to take opinion of a madman. He has his mind, but he is a madman. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta*-jñāna. His knowledge has been taken away. The mind being, what is called, in disordered condition, there is no value of his opinion. Director: And what if the brāhmaṇa starts to rule the world in their own interest? Prabhupāda: Hmm? [break] ...is not for his own interest, for everyone's interest. That is honesty. Director: What if he's misguided? The world changes and since that book was... Prabhupāda: Simply because they did not follow. Just like in India, this is the character of the brāhmaṇas that later on gradually the culture was lost since the last one thousand years, because India was subjugated by foreigners. The Mohammedans, they introduced some of their culture. Then the Britishers came. They intr... everyone wants an interest. The Britishers, when British rule came, their Lord Macauley's(?) private report was that "If you want to keep them as Indian Hindu, you will never be able to rule over." So it was British government's policy to condemn everything Indian. Director: But you said before that they didn't allow drinking, the British. Prabhupāda: Huh? Director: It's only now that... Didn't you say before? Prabhupāda: Yes, the British allowed. British, very carefully, because they directly did not put hands on their culture. But underground. And when they are now trained up, now they are openly doing. But the training was by the Britishers. In gentleman's society there must be drinking. This was the introduction. Director: But in Indian society, they forbid it. Prabhupāda: Indian society, the did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa. So many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. Nice cup. I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea. Director: But how do we reconcile the fact that our doctors tell us we should eat meat because of the protein? Prabhupāda: That is a foolishness. They are not eating meat for the last ten years. Do you think they are reduced in their health? Rather people say bright faces. In Boston one priest, I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. One gentleman in plain dress, he is a priest, he said, "Swamiji, how your students look so bright?" And sometimes we are advertised as bright faces. In Boston or somewhere the ladies were asking, "Are you American?" Director: How would you react if somebody breaks into this place and tries to rob some of the... Madhudviṣa: He says "How would we react if someone breaks in and tries to rob the building?" Prabhupāda: Rob? Madhudviṣa: A thief. What would we do if a thief came in? In other words, would we be violent? Prabhupāda: If a thief came in we shall punish him. Director: You should be violent? Prabhupāda: Why not? A thief should be punished. Director: You would punish yourself? What would you do? Would you start attacking him? Prabhupāda: No, ourself or anyone, a thief is to be punished. A thief has to be punished. Ourself or yourself, it doesn't matter. A thief is thief. He should be punished. Director: What if he breaks in because he is hungry? Prabhupāda: Who breaks? Madhudviṣa: He says what if he breaks in because he's hungry? Prabhupāda: We say everyone come and eat. Why he should remain hungry? We invite everyone, come here, eat, no charge. We don't charge. Why he should remain hungry? Let us increase this program. All hungry men of Melbourne city, come here, you take your eating sumptuously. We invite, "Come on." Why you should remain hungry? Director: What if he's an alcoholic and he's hungry? Devotee: We have a couple of alcoholics that come here, and we give them food every night. Director: You do? Devotee: Yes. Director: Just like the Gordon House. Devotee: Yes. They come, we have a feast every Sunday. They come and we give them food. Prabhupāda: It requires little time to practice. Otherwise, it is open for everyone for reformation. Director: But you would have your limitations how far you can go in feeding people. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee: He says we would have our limitations in that how many people we could feed. Prabhupāda: We can feed unlimitedly provided the government helps. Director: You could form... you could make a place destitute people could come and have a free meal. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh, yes. Everyone, we open to everyone. You come and take prasādam. Director: Could the government in a word use you... Prabhupāda: No, we cannot be used by the government. We can use the government. Government cannot dictate us. That will not help. Director: Just a moment. Just a moment. It is the fact that we have a lot of destitutes to look after, and you feel your religious order would like to help people. If the government subsidizes you to provide these services... Prabhupāda: That we can do. Director: That you can do. As long as they don't contradict your... Prabhupāda: No. Our principle is this. Director: I mean a lot of church organizations taking children and... Prabhupāda: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful. Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department. Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be... Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... our society should,... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and perhaps something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties. Prabhupāda: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program. Director: Of course it's a political decision. I can only... Prabhupāda: It is above politics. Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions. Prabhupāda: Yes, the department means they are another set of... Director: Yes, that's just an instrument, for public will. The minister is elected according to public will... Prabhupāda: Because they have made a department, just like your... what is the department? Devotee: Social welfare. Prabhupāda: Social welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics? If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it? *Director: Yeah, well you're right. But in our society, minister is elected to carry out certain policies*-not what he wants but what the people have voted. And they are taxed to support this. Prabhupāda: If your policy is social reformation... Director: Social reform is not our policy. Prabhupāda: Then, social welfare. Director: Just to look after those who are in trouble. Prabhupāda: Well, everyone is in trouble. At the present moment even the ministers are in trouble. Director: Yes, but that is not what our function is. Everybody's in trouble. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Physician, heal thyself. You see? They are also drunkards, they are also woman*-hunters, meat-eaters, and gambling, that's all. They require to be rectified. Director: But you can't help that. You have to go and change society, then society tells us to act differently. Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you change the society, how you can make social welfare? If you keep them as it is, then where is the question of welfare? Director: Give it a different interpretation to the word. Prabhupāda: Inter... how the? I don't... Director: Does he understand me? *Prabhupāda: Basically, basically one must be first*-class ideal man. That is wanted. Director: That's why it's so very difficult. You have to work on your own, and... Prabhupāda: No, no. Our own program, it is not vox populi. You find out fault with us. Director: Huh? Prabhupāda: You find out what is our fault. Then you can disagree. But when you see everything is nice, how you will not accept it? Unless you are biased. Director: Of course I'm biased. I've been brought up differently. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like our... Director: Just as you're biased against my life. *Prabhupāda: No, we are not biased. Just like... We are not biased. We are allowing. We say that if you want to be first*-class man, then you must not commit sinful activities. That is our propaganda. Director: But I as a public servant, I'm not here to change society. Prabhupāda: But we are also public. We belong to the public. You must become our servant also. Director: What? Prabhupāda: We are public, members of the public. So you should become our servant also, if you are public servant. (laughter) Director: A public servant is, in our philosophy, is a man who serves a minister elected by the people, and this way he serves the public. And what the public decides, he accordingly. Prabhupāda: Therefore we are reforming the public. The select... Director: Yes, that's what I mean. When you reform the public, then you cannot (indistinct) differently. Prabhupāda: Yes. So the public select a president, Nixon, and they became disturbed, again drag him down. This is going on. Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want to change, we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job. Prabhupāda: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take the standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful. Director: I might agree with you that of us will be Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Not whole. We don't... Director: Then we would be, then social welfare would mean something different. *Prabhupāda: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing-Kṛṣṇa says*-that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful? Director: You're quite right. Prabhupāda: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this... Director: Yes, a competitive society. Prabhupāda: We say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful. Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that... Prabhupāda: Tiny percentage. Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ. *Director: How do you feel about Mao Tse*-tung? Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? *Devotee: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse*-tung? Director: In China he's the ideal man. Devotee: He's a Communist. *Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also. Director: But where the winters are long, people have to kill animals to have something to eat over winter. Prabhupāda: Well, but you should have... I am not speaking for India or Europe. I am speaking the whole human society. Just try to understand. Director: People started eating meat because in winter they had nothing else to eat. Prabhupāda: No, you can eat meat, but you cannot eat meat by killing your father and mother. That is human sense. You are taking milk from the cow, it is your mother. You take milk, that in Australia they produce so much milk, butter, and everything. And after it is finished, cut the throat and make business, send to other countries. What is this nonsense? Is that humanity? Do you think? Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people to survive the winter had to kill the... Prabhupāda: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists, we can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists they do not discover medicine or process? "No, no, we shall not die." So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this. Director: Well, I certainly wish you luck. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Director: I wish you luck. Prabhupāda: Hm, thank you. Director: As a public servant that you reform society as your life. To carry out the instrument of... Prabhupāda: So kindly cooperate with us. This is... Try to learn the philosophy, and you will be surprised how nice philosophy it is. Director: I'm quite sure. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we don't count for percentage. Let personally become ideal man. The same example: There is no percentage in comparison to the stars and one moon. What is the percentage? There are millions of stars. It is, what is the percentage, one and million? It is practically zero percentage. But still, because it is moon it is more sufficient than all these small stars. So produce moon. Director: Yes, but that moon is big, and you can recognize it, but another man, just another star... Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. If you cannot make as good as moon... Director: Pardon? Prabhupāda: You cannot make, but it is possible if they are ideal men. Director: I know what you're saying, but a person would ask you, you're just a man like me, how, you know... it's not just as a star... that your opinion, just like... *Prabhupāda: No, if you approve this method you can cooperate in so many ways. First of all you have to see what is this method, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That we are prepared to serve you, to convince you, the first*-class nature of this movement. Now if you are convinced, try to cooperate. And induce other leaders. You are also one of the leaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this. Our..." Director: Our minister regards himself as a servant of the people, who can be kicked out... Prabhupāda: That is the defect. The people are rascals and they have elected another rascal. (laughter) That is the defect. Director: But that's how it is. Prabhupāda: So what can be done? Then hopeless. Director: Well, you can work on the... Prabhupāda: But we are going without depending on these rascals. We are going on. We are publishing our books, we are making our movement, we honestly trying. That's all. That we are doing all over the world. Director: All we can do is allow you to convince the population differently. Prabhupāda: We are doing. Director: And when you do that, then social welfare... Prabhupāda: Now suppose if we instruct a man, "Please do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection? Director: Pardon? Prabhupāda: If I advise somebody that "Do not have illicit sex." Have you got any objection? Director: . Yes, I have... Prabhupāda: You have illicit... If I say... Director: I like sex, and my wife likes sex. We just enjoy, we couldn't live without it. Our marriage is happier because we have sex. Prabhupāda: Just see. (chuckling) This is the position. Director: That is the position. We are both... Prabhupāda: So how they have accepted? (Referring to disciples) Director: I don't know. I don't know, but I couldn't. Our life is enjoying sex, and our marriage is happier with sex. Prabhupāda: No, we don't prohibit sex. But we prohibit... Director: ...don't have two children... Prabhupāda: ...illicit sex. Director: Well, we use the pill, or use contraceptives, use all kind of things. Because it makes our... Prabhupāda: Why do you use contraceptive? Director: Because don't want any more children. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you stop sex? Director: Because we like sex. Prabhupāda: Just see. Director: Because we enjoy it. Prabhupāda: That means you go to physician, "I want to do everything I like; still I want treatment." This is the position. You want... Director: I didn't come for treatment. (laughter) Prabhupāda: No, no, I say... (laughs) No, no, you have come for treatment here because you have failed to control the society, your activities; therefore you have come here, treatment. But when I prescribe medicine, you don't accept. Director: I haven't come for treatment. Prabhupāda: No... yes. Otherwise why you come? Director: I was invited. Prabhupāda: Just to help you in your social activities, social welfare activities. To take some suggestion from us. But when we give the suggestion, you reject it. That is your position. You have come here to take some suggestion so that you can make your activities very nice, but when we suggest you reject it. *Director: I'm two people*-I'm myself and I'm a public servant. Prabhupāda: Any, anyone. That is the position. For treatment we go to a physician, and the physician prescribes medicine, you reject it. So how you will be cured? That is the position. When the prescription is given you want to put it in the votes of other patients. What the patient will know about the prescription? They are patients. There is no question of... Director: If I would come here and want to join your movement I would accept it. Prabhupāda: No, you join or not join, you have come here to consult us if we can help your activities. But when we prescribe, you do not accept it. That is your position. Devotee: He has to go now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda, just... So, to, actually to make the whole human society happy, this God consciousness movement must spread. Director: Well, I'll certainly report back. Thank you very much for seeing me. Prabhupāda: Just little wait. Devotee: We have some nice foodstuffs which we're just preparing to (indistinct). It's a custom. Śrīla Prabhupāda said to give prasādam to everyone. Prabhupāda: It is our custom that if anyone comes, he should be offered a nice seat and given some eatables. Yes. Director: How long will you be staying in Melbourne? Prabhupāda: I am going day after tomorrow. Director: Have you seen many people in Melbourne? Prabhupāda: They are daily one or two gentlemen, like you they are coming. But they find our prescription very strict. (laughter) And... but we are not going to change it. We are not after vox populi. That is not our concern. We have got our standard method. Director: Yeah, sure. I believe that you should have these standards if you want them, if anybody wants them. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is making us successful. We do not make any compromise. This is our method. If you like, you take it. If you don't like, you go away. Don't mind. Director: If you can convince the society to change, then the public servants will change. Prabhupāda: Yes, we are in the society, we are inviting everyone, they are coming. They are coming. Gradually they are becoming converted to this. Director: When will you be coming back to Melbourne? Prabhupāda: Next January. Director: Come again this often... Prabhupāda: Yes. So I am going, but I only hopeful on these young boys. They will do. Take the whole plate. Take the whole plate, it is fruit, it is very nice. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam [Bg. 9.26]. This is meant for human being, the fruits. The tigers will not eat the fruits. The tiger, canine teeth, they will not like. We have got different teeth for eating fruit. Director: It's very nice and sweet. *Prabhupāda: So we have got food grains, we have got fruits, we have got milk. By combination of milk and food grains we can prepare so many nice palatable, full of vitamins. Why we should kill the animal? Let the animal live and take it's milk and prepare nice food, full of vitamins. Milk is nothing conversion of blood. So why do you take the blood by killing? Take the blood in a different form, milk. This is our program. Let the animal live peacefully, and if you are meat*-eaters, let the animal die and you eat. There will be no charge for it. The meat-eaters, let us keep some animal, take milk, and when it dies naturally, you call the meat-eater, "Please take this." You take the skin free, you take the bones free, you eat meat. Just wait for the death. It will die after all. That much concession I want. But let the animal live without any fear of being killed so it will supply more milk. Suppose if you know that I am keeping you here for killing. Will you be very happy? Director: Thank you very much. Prabhupāda: And if you want to eat meat, let it die. That is our program. If you like, you can accept. Thank you very much. (Guest leaves.) This is the disease. They want to keep the poor girls free for prostitution so that they can enjoy. This is main point. He has admitted. Keep the young girls free, they have also sex desire, and this man enjoy. This is the whole basic principle here in Western. Devotee: This man, he was of a very ripe age, and still he was saying that... Prabhupāda: Yes, the ripe age, up to the point of death one is sexually inclined. Up to the point of death. There was a minister of Agwar(?). I have told you this story? Yes. At the point of death he was looking to the young girl. That is natural. Unless one is trained up, that is natural. That is māyā's entrapping machine to keep the living entity within this material world. Śrutakīrti: Sometimes the youth, when we offer them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "When I get older I won't be so attached to this enjoyment, so then I can take it up." Prabhupāda: They generally think so, but that is not possible. Śrutakīrti: That is not the fact. *Prabhupāda: In Paris very, very old men, seventy*-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still by Kṛṣṇa's grace you are accepting this principle. That is great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man, I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed one of my Godbrothers went, "Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life, to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you, it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible. Devotee: These old men, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're trying but they cannot enjoy it very much any more. Prabhupāda: Unless they enjoy with Kṛṣṇa, it is impossible. Devotee: They are not finding it so pleasurable as young men? Prabhupāda: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice. Devotee: No, I mean sex life. Prabhupāda: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the gṛhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. What is this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support. Devotee: That's the cause of this whole problem. Prabhupāda: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only. Devotee: And he's the head of the department. Prabhupāda: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it. Devotee: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life." *Prabhupāda: Yes. Mostly the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they are accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then it is (indistinct). The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other second method. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇāḥ. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Kṛṣṇa conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a gṛhastha for the time being. Devotee: Yes, I think so. Prabhupāda: Unless you are ripe old age. At least up to fifty years. What is your age now? *Devotee: Um, twenty*-eight. *Prabhupāda: Twenty*-eight. So up to fifty years you remain gṛhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal gṛhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind. Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves? Prabhupāda: Who? Devotee: In Hong Kong? *Prabhupāda: They are taking. Pañca*-draviḍa Mahārāja is there. He is a sannyāsī. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householder. We are accepting everyone. Gṛhe vā thāke hā gaurāṅga bole ḍāke. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyāsī in the forest or he remains a gṛhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as gṛhastha. Live as an ideal gṛhastha, don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all gṛhasthas, all these Pañca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a gṛhastha. He did not take sannyāsa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was married. Nityānanda Prabhu was gṛhastha. They were all gṛhasthas, but ideal gṛhastha. So you become an ideal gṛhastha. That also wanted. Morning Walk -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne Śrutakīrti: The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk which takes place in Melbourne, Australia, Botanical Gardens on May 22, 1975. [break] Madhudviṣa: ...the area since 1900. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: And he was telling me that the house that you are living in, Prabhupāda House, was built in 1885. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: 1885, and at that time it was the only house in the whole area for miles around. And it was built by one judge called Moritt(?), Judge Moritt(?). And it was the only house in... They called it "Moritt's folly," "Moritt's folly," because it was built on the sand, and no one thought it could stand for so long. It was built... Because this whole area here was sand, it was all beach, and it was the only house there, and he had stables and very extensive holdings there. Prabhupāda: Judge, he was judge. Madhudviṣa: He was a judge, yes. He went to great extent to build the house. It was during this boom area when... Prabhupāda: Englishmen were coming. Madhudviṣa: Yeah, the Englishmen were coming and because Queen Victoria was there..., the king had died, so the order was passed that no one could buy any, I think, jewelry for their wives. Prabhupāda: Why? Madhudviṣa: It was something. The English frowned upon buying jewelry and ornaments for the women. So the men were using their money to build big houses. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: So therefore during the Victorian area, era you have many elaborate houses that were built by the Britishers. And he... Prabhupāda: Victoria died in 1903. Madhudviṣa: He was said to have brought some Italian plasterers from Italy to do all that elaborate work on the ceilings in the house. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: So many people are anxious to come into the house to see the work in the construction of the house. And it has been classified as a building of national importance. Prabhupāda: Oh. The building is known everywhere. Madhudviṣa: Oh yes. It is important building. They cannot... It is not allowed to be torn down. It is protected by the... Prabhupāda: Historical. Madhudviṣa: Historical building. It is protected by the government. Śrutakīrti: Yesterday you were telling Bhūrijana they should make the temple a tourist attraction. So with this method, it would be very easy. Prabhupāda: Yes. (coughs) Śrutakīrti: Roll down the window. Prabhupāda: ...the demonic, they construct very nice house. [break] ...this planet, there are seven other planets. There sunshine does not go. But they are very well situated. Madhudviṣa: Well situated? Even though there's no sun? Prabhupāda: Yes, but there are snakes which has got jewel on the head. That light keeps them illuminated. Madhudviṣa: But does that light also keep them healthy? Prabhupāda: Huh? Madhudviṣa: Like the sun gives us, keeps us healthy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: So the jewels from the snakes can also provide that nutrition? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Devotee 1: So those snakes are very important. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...plans. They had to work very hard to find out, "What is this? What is this?" So that is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. "Working hard simply to know." Kliśyanti. Kliśyanti means working very hard, labor. Kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Simply to understand. But they are not kliśyanti to understand God. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. This kind of knowledge is compared with beating the bush. That's all. After taking away the paddy grains, only the skin remains. And if you again beat the skin to get grains, that is not possible. Devotee 1: Beating the husk. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is like that. Kliśyanti kevala*-bodha-labdhaye. [break] Devotee 2: Prabhupāda, I have seen in New Zealand that the diary farmers they cut the tails off the cows. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee 2: The farmers have cut the tails off the cows in New Zealand. Prabhupāda: Tails? Devotee 2: Yeah, they cut the tails off so that when they're milking the tails won't hit them in the face. They do this to all their cows in the milking sheds. Prabhupāda: For what purpose? The tail, cut the tails? Śrutakīrti: When you milk the cow, they sometimes hit you in the face with their tail. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Devotee 1: Sometimes it's very dangerous. They can hurt your eye or something. Śrutakīrti: In New Vrindaban sometimes they tie it to the ceiling. But not cutting. [break] Madhudviṣa: ...comprised of spirit souls, unlimited amounts of shining spirit souls? Prabhupāda: Yes. Combination. Madhudviṣa: Combination. Of something else besides...? Prabhupāda: Impersonalists, they do not accept personal feature. Means they fall down again. Madhudviṣa: That means there must be a lot of impersonalists. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Madhudviṣa: It seems there would be a lot of impersonalists. Prabhupāda: No, more than them, there are personalists. They are in Vaikuṇṭhaloka. Devotee 3: [break] ...in the material world. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee 3: Is there any real happiness? Prabhupāda: That is material world, no happiness. Devotee 4: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the advantage of going to India, to Vṛndāvana? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee 4: What is the advantage of going... *Prabhupāda: To get impetus to go back to home, back to Godhead. To come to Australia we get impetus to go to hell. (laughter) [break] Hell means anywhere where material happiness is given more importance. Mahat*-sevāṁ dvā r a m āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi... In the western countries and..., they are simply busy in sense gratification. So that is the way of hell. [break] Devotee 5: ...said that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee 5: You have said, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." Well, um, what I want to know is, is not God eternal, therefore how was there a beginning? And if the beginning was the word, who was it spoken by or how was it spoken if it was the beginning? Prabhupāda: Hmm? In the beginning there was word. So what is the difficulty to understand? Devotee 1: . He's saying if everything is eternal, then how was there a beginning? Prabhupāda: Beginning of this material world. This material world has beginning and end. Just like this material season, it has beginning and end. Hm. This is troublesome. Madhudviṣa: Garland. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: There should be flowers all over there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Madhudviṣa: To make you garlands. [break] *Prabhupāda: This beginning and end, that is troublesome. So in the material body, it has beginning and end. Therefore it is... But they do not understand it. They think, "It is all right." I don't want to end this body but there is end. Neither I want to begin, but there is beginning. That is the trouble. But we are so dull*-headed, we do not understand that anything which has beginning and end, that is troublesome. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate: [Bg. 8.19] "It begins and ends." That requires intelligence, that "I am eternal. Why should I accept anything which has beginning and end?" That is intelligence. Devotee 6: Was there a time when there was no material world? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee 6: Was there a time when there was no material world? Prabhupāda: No, no. The material world in potency is always there. But it has got a manifestation, beginning, and again end. It begins from God, and again it ends in God. But God is eternal. [break] ...feeling of your, it is manifested, and sometimes it is not manifested. But the feeling potency is there. Just like sometimes I become angry and sometimes not angry, but the potency of becoming angry is there. That is eternal. Similarly, the material world, the material energy, or the material nature, is permanent, but it is sometimes manifest, sometimes not manifest. It is now manifest. It will end. Again, another body you will manifest, and it will end. But I am eternal. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The spirit is supposed to be stronger than matter. The spirit is superior than matter. So it seems that... Well, what happens when the body dies? Is the spirit forced to leave or does it leave on its own accord? Prabhupāda: No, it is by nature forced. Madhudviṣa: But that is material. Prabhupāda: Huh? Madhudviṣa: Isn't nature material? Prabhupāda: Yes, material nature, yes. Madhudviṣa: So how is material forcing something spiritual? *Prabhupāda: You have voluntarily accept her supremacy. Just like you have accepted some disease. So disease is forcing you. And if you cure, then it will not be able to force you. You infect some disease. Then you become forced by the disease to accept the miseries. But if you are not diseased, there is no question of force. If you become criminal, the police forces you. And if you are not criminal you have no business with the police. It is like this. Police control, controller*-the controlling power upon me comes when I am criminal. Otherwise why police will control me? Therefore I voluntarily accept the control of police by my criminal desires. That is going on. That is material life. Madhudviṣa: But would that mean that a person who is a pure devotee doesn't have to die? Prabhupāda: No, die... Pure or nonpure, nobody dies. Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies. Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training. Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul? Prabhupāda: Then that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa Himself. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master. *Devotee 8: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many people who live outside the temple have Jagannātha Deities and Gaura*-Nitāi Deities. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee 8: Śrīla Prabhupāda, many people who live outside the temple have Jagannātha Deities and... *Prabhupāda: Better Gaura*-Nitāi Deities. Devotee 8: Huh? *Prabhupāda: Better Gaura*-Nitāi. Devotee 8: So they have to do full Deity worship when they have these Deities? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee 8: They have to do full Deity worship to have these Deities? Dress the Deities every day? Prabhupāda: They are supposed to do so, but whether they are able to do so, that is the point. If you can worship properly, that's all right. But whether you are able to worship? Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, can a person go back to a spiritual planet without initiation? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee 7: Can a person go back to a spiritual planet... Prabhupāda: No, there is no more init... Initiation here required when the living entity is in darkness. Just like uneducated person requires to go to school. One who is educated, in his full knowledge, he doesn't go. Madhudviṣa: The question was, Prabhupāda, is it possible for a person to return to the spiritual world without taking initiation from a bona fide spiritual master? Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī said, ā dau gurv-āśrayam. First business is to accept spiritual master. Ā dau gurv-āśrayam. Who will train him? He is already fool, rascal. He must be trained up. So he must be trained up by the representative of Kṛṣṇa. Devotee 9: Is second initiation necessary, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Second or first only. Devotee 9: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are you saying? You said before there's no necessary for a spiritual master and now you... Devotee 1: He said in the spiritual world there is no necessity. Devotee 9: Oh, in the spiritual world. Devotee 1: Everyone is in full knowledge. In the material world everyone is in darkness. Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda! Hari bol! Hari bol! [break] Devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it appears that there is a group of persons here in Australia who think, judging from the different questions that are being asked, they are thinking that it is not required to formally accept... Prabhupāda: There are so many rascal swamis come. They say like that, "There is no need of guru." Devotee 1: Yeah, right. They think that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart and you can accept initiation by that way. Prabhupāda: You do not know where to find out Kṛṣṇa in the heart. (end) Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne Madhudviṣa: ...who are here, they would like to have your association, (laughter) more personal association. *Prabhupāda: I also like. (laughter) Yasya prasādād bhagavat*-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi **. This is essential, to be anxious to be associated with the spiritual master. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. That is the statement of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa one comes in touch with the bona fide spiritual master, and by the mercy of spiritual master, one gets Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa can understand what we want. So when we sincerely want Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa sends His representative, guru. Guru is outside representative of Kṛṣṇa. So to the sincere student, Kṛṣṇa teaches from inside and outside. That is the way, so that he becomes quickly fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. So this behavior, to be attached to spiritual master, is a good qualification. Yasya prasādāt, by his mercy, Kṛṣṇa becomes merciful. By Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one gets spiritual master, and by the spiritual master's mercy, one gets the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Woman: I must give him tissues. *Prabhupāda: Pāpī*-tāpī jata chilo. So His business was pāpī-tāpī? No, His business was with the most exalted personalities like... Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu nityānanda, śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta. They were all very exalted personalities. But all of their mission was to deliver the pāpī-tāpīs. That we have described in our that small book, Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya in Five Features. So pāpī-tāpī is everyone, in this age especially. But if we take shelter of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, by His mercy we get everything. So now Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda has come to Melbourne, very nicely looking. So keep yourself always engaged in the service of the Lord. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau **. Śrī-vigrahārādhana, this arcana process, beginning from maṅgala-ārātrika up to the sāyam-ārātrika, everything should be done very nicely. And the temple should be made very clean. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau. To dress the Deity is as much important as to cleanse the temple also, not that temple will remain dirty, simply you are dressing the Deity. Madhudviṣa: Residents? Prabhupāda: Resident in this temple? Madhudviṣa: We would like them all to be residents. But some of them find it little difficult to be residents. Prabhupāda: Make it suitable. Hm. All right. Madhudviṣa: They don't want to go. Prabhupāda: All right. (laughter) [break] Madhudviṣa: ...one of our very dear friends, Raymond Lopez. He is a barrister and a visitor who has helped us out tremendously with some of the legal dealings that we've had here in Melbourne. And also this is Mr. Wally Strobes(?), he has also helped us out and given us good guidance. And this is Bob Bourne(?), he is a photographer who has... He has taken that nice picture of the Deities that I have brought to Māyāpura festival. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. *Madhudviṣa: Very nice. So he has taken many photographs for us. And we are particularly indebted to Wally and Raymond for giving us a lot of good guidance in our dealings with the police. And one time we had one incident about three years ago, when some of the boys were a little enthusiastic about Ratha*-yātrā festival, and they went out and they picked many flowers illegally. So they were caught. Prabhupāda: Illegally? Where? In the park? *Madhudviṣa: No. In one flower*-growing nursery. Prabhupāda: Oh. Madhudviṣa: So they were found out and caught. But Raymond was able to get them off free due to Kṛṣṇa's mercy. But it taught us a good lesson. Guest 1: Actually I think they had the wrong people. Prabhupāda: There was a great devotee in South India. He was a treasury officer. So he took money from the treasury and constructed very nice temple. (laughter) Yes. Later on, he was caught, and he was put into jail by the Nawab. At that time the Mohammedan king, Nawab, he saw in dream that two boys, very beautiful, they have come to the Nawab: "Sir, what money he has taken, you can take from me and release him." So the Nawab said, "If I get my money, I can release him." Then, when his dream broke, he saw the money on the floor, and nobody was there. Then he could understand that he is great devotee. He called him immediately, that "You are released, and you take this money also. Whatever you have already taken, that's all right. And now this money also you take. You spend as you like." So devotees sometimes do like that. Actually nothing is private property. That is our philosophy. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: [Īśo mantra 1] "Everything belongs to God." That's a fact. Under the influence of māyā we are thinking that "This is my property." Guest 2: That was the argument he used. Guest 1: No, It (indistinct). (laughter) Prabhupāda: Originally, originally, everything belongs to God. So why we are claiming, "It is my property"? Suppose you have come here. You sit down for one hour, two hours, and if you claim, "It is my property," is that very good judgement? You have come from outside, you are allowed to sit down here for two hours, and if you claim, "This is my property..." Similarly, we come here. We take birth either in America or in Australia or in India and remain for fifty, sixty or hundred years, and why shall I claim, "It is my property"? Guest 3: You don't claim it, I suppose. If you own property, what happens, I would have thought, is more that for a time you have got possession. *Prabhupāda: For a time you have got possession of the chair*-that does not mean your property. Guest 3: But I suppose if somebody came and took the chair while I've got it in my possession, I'd be terribly upset about it. Prabhupāda: No, that is a (indistinct) thing. Nobody will disturb you. You remain in your chair. (laughter) That does not mean because you have sat down on the chair for two hours, you become proprietor. Guest 2: One gets attached. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest 2: One gets attached to the chair. I like this chair. It's a nice chair. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. You like, you sit down, and you go when it is finished. But how do you claim that it is your property? *Guest 2: Good*-bye. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: That is called māyā. This is māyā. The philosophy of māyā, māyā means what is not. Mā*-yā. Mā means not, yā means this. So māyā means the conclusion, as you have made, that is not. That is not the fact. So we are claiming, "America is our", "Australia is our", "India is our". Nothing our. Everything God's. The best conclusion is, "It is God's property. God has given us to live. Let us thank God, feel obliged to Him, and glorify Him." That is our vision. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. You accept the real position, that nothing belongs to you, everything belongs to God. You also belong to God. Your body, yourself, everything belongs to God. This body is material body. That material energy, earth, water, air, fire-everything belongs to God. This sea belongs to God, water, vast water. You have not created, neither your forefather has created. So this body is made of earth, water, air, fire, five elements. So your, the body is also God's. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this concept that everything belongs to God, it can't work unless everybody believes that everything belongs to God. Prabhupāda: Then everybody may be mad. That does not change the fact. If some madman comes in this room and he fights, "I am the proprietor. You get out," so that is not the fact. Guest 1: I understand, you know you were talking about the sea and so on. But it's for people to use. Prabhupāda: Use, you can use. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ [Īśo mantra 1]. That is the Vedic injunction. What is given to you, you use it. Just like one gentleman has got five sons. He gives one son, "This is your property. This is your property. This you can use." But the sons must acknowledge that "This is father's property. He has given us." Similarly, in the Vedic śāstra it is said that "Everything belongs to God, and whatever He has given to you, you can use. Don't encroach upon others." Guest 1: But if He has given... You were saying that if He's given something to you and don't encroach upon others, but there are certain things that one person has or one group of persons have which, I think, truly can be said that... Prabhupāda: And originally we have to accept. Everything belongs to God. Just like father and sons. The son must know, "The property is father's." That is the real knowledge. Now, "Whatever father has given me, I will use it. Why shall I encroach upon others, my other brother, which he has got from the father?" This is good sense. "Why shall I fight with my other brother? My father has given him this property to him, so let him use that, and whatever he has given me, let me use it. Why shall I encroach upon his property?" This is good sense. Guest 1: I can understand when you say, "Don't encroach on other people's property." And I believe, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that if you have something, if someone's given you something and someone else wants to use it, then let him. I can understand that. But don't you get into the stage and can't you get to the stage at times that for some reason or other you don't want him to use it? Prabhupāda: I don't want to use my thing? Madhudviṣa: He's saying that if someone does not want, that you don't want someone to use what you have. If someone tries to forcibly take... Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. Guest 1: The situation could arise when you wouldn't want somebody to use what you were using for some particular reason. You might be using it yourself at that time. That situation can arise that you don't want... Madhudviṣa: We are believing that everything belongs to God. If someone else does not believe in that concept and tries to use... Prabhupāda: That is wrong, that I say. That is his wrong conception. Guest 2: Well, how do you reconcile or how do you work out a situation... If everything belongs to God, we have to run society, and... Prabhupāda: But you don't forget that everything belongs to God. Because you have to run society, it does not mean that you forget the real thing. Guest 1: So I really don't object to that idea at all. But the thing is that the system we're working within has got different concepts. Prabhupāda: It should be rectified. Guest 1: It should be...? Prabhupāda: Rectified. Madhudviṣa: The system should be rectified. Guest 1: I suppose Wally and I are thinking on the same wavelength because we can imagine the problems that we'd have. Prabhupāda: Now you have got the United Nations. Now, if they are sane men, they should pass resolution, "The whole world belongs to God, and we are all God's sons. So let us make now United States of the World." That can be easily done. If they can make United States of America, why not United States of the whole world? Guest 2: I think that would probably solve a lot of problems because... *Prabhupāda: Yes, all problems. Now, suppose in India there is scarcity of foodstuff. In America, in Africa, in Australia, there is enough grain. Produce foodstuff, distribute. Then immediately whole nations become united. Use everything, God's gift-we are all sons*-very nicely. Then the, all the problems solved. Now the difficulty is that we have made, "No, this is my property. We shall use it, nation." In the Vedic conception there is no such thing as national. There is no such conception. That is the idea, Vedic conception of society or politics. There is no question of national. Guest 1: You're thinking more of an international world than a national world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I certainly don't. Prabhupāda: Yes, that we want to do: one God, one state, one scripture, and one activity. That is the ultimate end of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like we are from different countries. We don't think as nationalism, that "I am American," "I am Indian." No. We all think that "We are all servant of Kṛṣṇa." And they are working in that spirit. It is possible. If this idea is accepted in that United Nation, it can be done. But they will not accept. They are going go be united, but everyone is thinking, "First of all my interest." All cheating. They are outwardly, "Now we have come to the United Nation," but no one is going to be united. Everyone is thinking, "It is my first interest first. I must give veto if he's opposing." This is going on. Therefore for the last twenty years or more than that, they are trying to be united, but it is becoming disunited. The flags are increasing. In New York they have got their headquarters. When I pass through, I see that another flag has increased. Guest 3: I don't think it's necessary that it fails. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest 3: I don't think it's necessary that it fails. I don't... I think things are changing definitely throughout the world. It's a matter of which course they take. Prabhupāda: No, what changing? They are preparing for war again. Where is changing? A slight provocation, there may be war. Guest 1: Yes, but people are changing now. You're getting the young people who for the first time in years are becoming aware and are getting interested in things outside their own town, their own individual state or whatever it is they have. You have people, the young people now are getting interested in things like poverty, they're interested in Bangladesh and so on. This is good. But you nonetheless have a very large proportion of the people who have got that idea of, "I'm all right, and I'll look after mine without taking the overall picture into account." And I think that so long as you have different concepts, different beliefs, it's going to be very hard to get into what you're talking about. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be united first, that... First thing is that everyone should be convinced or understand clearly that everything belongs to God. But they have no conception of God even. That is the difficulty. The whole human society at the present moment, majority, they are Godless, especially the Communists. They don't acknowledge. The scientist, the philosopher, the scholars*-all Godless. Scientists' special business is how to defy God. They say, "Science is everything. We can do everything by science." There is no need of God. Huh? Guest 2: I don't think so any more. They're a lot more enlightened. Prabhupāda: Not any more? Guest 2: Well, in some circles, yes I think. Prabhupāda: That was never any more, but if they are realizing that, that is very good. Guest 1: But you can't say that scientists are working in a way that is opposite to God's will. Prabhupāda: Yes, they say. They say, oh yes. I have met many scientists. They say that "We shall solve everything by scientific advancement. We have done already." They say like that. Guest 1: But just because they... Prabhupāda: Just like there is a big theory, chemical theory. One big scientist... Big or small, whatever he may be, he has got a Nobel Prize. Guest 1: He's medium sized. (laughing) Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest 1: He's medium sized. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is making the theory that life has come from chemicals by chemical combination, chemical evolution. Darwin's theory is also of that. This is their... Big, big scientists, they are so fool that life has come from matter. Where is the proof? He was lecturing in California University, and there was one student. He is my disciple. He challenged him that "If you get the chemicals, whether you can manufacture life?" That answer was, "That I cannot say." Why? You are putting this theory, that life has come from chemicals. So science means observation and experiment. Now experimentally prove that the chemicals have produced a life. Guest 1: They're trying. (laughs) *Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. When you are trying to be a lawyer or barrister, that does not mean you are barrister. When you are a student of law you cannot say that "I am barrister," or "advocate," that you cannot say. You are trying to be, that is another thing. But while they are trying to be, they are taking the position of leader. That is the misleading. That is described in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. "One blind man is trying to lead many other blind men." What is the use of such leading? If the leader is blind, how he will do well to other blind men? Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf. Prabhupāda: What is that? Madhudviṣa: Beethoven, the great composer, he was deaf. Guest 3: At least, for part of his life. Guest 1: But can't you have people doing good for the sake of goodness? Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is good. Guest 1: But there are certain people... Prabhupāda: Therefore I say blind. He does not know what is good. real goodness is to understand God. That is real goodness. Guest 1: But there are certain things that you don't..., that are good, that you can accept as being good just by themselves. Now if you see an old lady who gets run over by a car, you go and help her. Now there are certain things that are good by themselves, I think, and that people will react and do the good thing even though they mightn't have any concept of God. Prabhupāda: No. Unless you have got the real platform how you can do good? Just like our Madhudviṣa Mahārāja was obliged to you. You have done some good in legal affairs. But unless you are a lawyer, legal man, how can you do it? You have a mind to do good, but if you are not a lawyer, how could you do? Guest 2: But there would be a lot of lawyers to do... Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. I am talking of yourself. If one does not know what is good, then how he will do good? The first business is that he must know what is good. Then he can do something good. Otherwise what is the use of jumping like monkey? He must know. Because you are a lawyer you know how to deal with law, you can do good. But a layman who is not a lawyer, how he can do good? So therefore, anyone who is posing himself as leader to do good to the society, he must know first of all what is good. Guest 2: Would you say that the lawyer can do good whether or not he believes in God? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying that if you are not a lawyer, if you have no study of the law, how can you do good? Guest 2: Well, that's what I was putting. I was hoping to lead you from there to the other situation of no studying or specific training. Madhudviṣa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that you could help us legally because you knew the law. If you weren't a lawyer, then you couldn't have helped us legally. Right? Guest 2: I see, I see what you mean, yes. Madhudviṣa: So therefore, now taking that same example, you can't do good for someone unless you know what good is. You can't... Guest 2: I was misunderstanding what he was saying. Madhudviṣa: You can't help us legally unless you know the law yourself. You can't... I mean, just any Joe can't walk into the court and start speaking. The judge will say, "Go away." But because you're a lawyer you can help us. Guest 1: But the question Raymond asked before was if somebody helped an old lady across the street and he was, say, an atheist, would it be doing a good action? Madhudviṣa: Well, it depends. It depends on what the lady was doing. Guest 1: It depends if he pushed her in front of a car. Madhudviṣa: That lady may have been... Guest 1: If she wanted to cross the road? Madhudviṣa: No, no. That lady may have been walking home with a cartload, with booze, to kill herself. So when she got knocked over and all her liquor fell out on the ground and you didn't help her up with it, then maybe it was good that you left her there. Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road... *Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture*-everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā [SB 1.5.22]. Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse. Śrutakīrti: What is it, idaṁ hi... Prabhupāda: Puṁsaḥ. Yes, the direction is... Read it. Śrutakīrti: Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā... Prabhupāda: Come here. Śrutakīrti: Prabhupāda: The advancement of knowledge in any department, that is very good. But what is the aim? The aim is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Just like you are lawyer. You gave us help in some difficulty time. Why? Because you wanted to continue glorification of the Lord, that "These men are doing nice. Why they should be harassed?" So that means you helped glorification of the Lord. So that's your success as a lawyer. So anyone who helps this movement, that "They are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. They should be helped in all respect," that is the perfection. Everything is required, but it should be culminated in the matter of glorifying the Supreme. Then it is perfect. In another place... Find out this verse, Śrutakīrti: Ataḥ... Prabhupāda: Pumbhir. Śrutakīrti: Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ. Prabhupāda: Hmm. Find out this verse. Śrutakīrti: *Prabhupāda: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession-you are in a different dress*-it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard. Let people take up this. We don't say that "You change your position. You become a sannyāsī or you give up your profession and become bald-headed." No, we don't say that. (laughs) We are by nature. (laughter) So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you remain in your position, but see whether by your discharge of duties you have pleased God. Guest 3: I think this is the attitude to certainly my religion, where we believe that through the profession, the way you mention it, we are doing things towards God. And even in the ordinary days of the week, that you could be doing or generally making life in a way to please God. And that's my belief because my religion has the same belief as what you've just been mentioning, that even through the running of the professions and all the practice of the profession is one way of helping people. And because you are helping people you are in fact doing something that God wants. Prabhupāda: No, not general people. Guest 3: It's the indirect way because God wants people to be happy. Now, if you can help people, if you can help people as people, surely that means that you must be pleasing God. Prabhupāda: No, first of all... Suppose you are a lawyer, and some man has committed murder, and he wants your help. And suppose by your legal tricks you save him. So that will not please God. (laughter) Guest 3: You've got a different consideration here. Guest 2: You've got a lot of places and names for that. Guest 3: We've got a different consideration here, you see, because the law that we have is very different from God's law. And I think that... [break] Prabhupāda: You must accept God's law, not the people's law. Guest 1: Well, the problem is that we're confined by the state law here just as the boys with the flowers. Now, maybe in Kṛṣṇa's law they did nothing wrong, but they were still subjected to being taken away like that. Prabhupāda: Yes, but he saved them. He saved them. Guest 3: Now wait a minute. I want to get this thing straight, if I may. One boy was charged. Now, I don't care what happened or where the flowers came from. I was told and I believe that that particular boy was not involved. Now, someone else may have been. But as far as I was concerned, I believed that the boy that they got was not involved himself. Now, I'm not saying that some other people were not involved. But I think that that particular boy, I am satisfied... Do you agree with this, Wally? Guest 1: Yeah, but even if you had been told that that boy did it, your job would have been to... Guest 3: If they say that boy... If I was told, "Look, that boy did it," then the case would have been done completely differently because then you can't then go around and say, "Look, he didn't do it." So it's a different approach, different approach altogether you see. But as far as... I just wanted to get that thing straight, as far as that particular boy. But according to the law in here, we have to operate within our law. Now, true it is that outside of it, you have got the question of God's law. But I'm not that kind of lawyer. I'm not involved with God's law. Prabhupāda: No, I... I know that. That is not... Guest 3: I can only operate with the tools that I have. *Guest 1: But even if you are a church, if you are a church*-goer it makes it very interesting because you're subject to that church law. *Guest 3: . Well, I'm a church*-going person. Guest 1: What happens in the situation where somebody has committed a murder? Guest 3: Nothing. It's... Look... Guest 1: It's a matter of church conscience. Guest 3: It's nothing. It's got nothing to do... I'm not there to judge... Guest 1: This was the example given. Guest 3: I'm not there to judge. All I'm there to do is to do a job. Someone else has got the unfortunate task of having to judge people. I don't have to do that, so I don't decide. Prabhupāda: No, we can judge from the standard laws. India still, if one has very good garden and flowers, if somebody goes, "Sir, I want to take some flowers from your garden for worshiping God," "Yes, you can take." They will be very glad. Guest 1: This man, his livelihood depended on those flowers and I don't... I think his possessions were more important to him unfortunately. Guest 3: It's a funny story. There's a funny follow up to that one, and that is that the flowers were taken from two men that ran nurseries. And we had to go through an appeal finally to get heard. But just before the appeal came off the boys needed a glass house because of their special plants, which you've got outside here. Śrutakīrti: Tulasī. Guest 3: And they didn't know anything about glass houses. So they were driving around and one said, "Well, let's go and find out something about glass houses. Oh, there's a nice nursery." (laughter) So the car drives up, you see. The devotee comes out, and he said, "Excuse me, sir, but we're interested in glass houses." He said, "Will you please get out of my land?" The same nursery. (laughter) There were two hundred nurseries around the area. He picked that particular one. Prabhupāda: But if people would have been God conscious, they would have excused, "Oh, they have come for God's service. All right, you can take." Therefore the first business is to make people God conscious. Then everything is adjusted. Yasyāsti bhaktiḥ, there is a verse in Bhāgavata, Guest 2: I think the problem in western society, because in western society if you're not the head, then you're inferior. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Guest 2: If you're not the head, you're inferior. In Indian society that's not so. Prabhupāda: Who shall be the head? Guest 2: All want to be heads, in one way or another. Prabhupāda: What is that? Amogha: He says that we all want to be heads. *Prabhupāda: No. That is a very good idea, but the leg is also required. If you simply keep the head and there is no leg, then it is incomplete. Everything is required. To keep the body fit you require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require leg. That is the system of varṇāśrama*-dharma. In India you have heard that there is a class, brāhmaṇa. Now it is now broken. But this is the Vedic civilization, that one class of men should be the brāhmaṇas, first class. One class of man should be kṣatriya, the administrators, politicians. One class of man should be food producer, vaiśya. And one class of man should be laborer, who has no brain but he can assist the other three. Guest 2: The ideal in western societies is all people should be equal. *Prabhupāda: No, that is not ideal and neither it is possible. Not that everyone is going to be lawyer. Even though everyone has got the ambition to become a first*-class lawyer and earn like anything, but that is not possible. So therefore it requires selection, who will become a lawyer, who will become a scientist, who will become a medical man... Guest 2: In our society you are taught in school that if you try hard enough, you can become prime minister. Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no harm. You become prime minister. But I say that not everyone is capable to become prime minister. That has to be. If one man is not capable and if he takes education to become, he will waste his time. Guest 2: But once you have the idea in your head that you can be prime minister, you don't want to be a laborer. Prabhupāda: Then you become. But if he is a loafer and he wants to become prime minister, then it will create havoc. Just like in America. He was not fit for the president's post. Nixon was elected. Then again he has to be dragged down. We say the fit man should go to become a particular... Guest 2: Our system, I think is not very good. But everyone is taught this way in our system. *Prabhupāda: No, there must be... Just like first*-class men. They should judge for which purpose this man is. Practical psychology there is. I think. They can decide like that. Anyway, the society must have all divisions of men, and then the society is perfect. We have already many divisions, but we are lacking one division, that, the first-class men, first-class ideal men. That is lacking. Guest 1: I think everybody acknowledges that. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that first*-class man is stated here. Read that. Amogha: Prabhupāda: So we have to train men like that. Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with anyone of those. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with any one of those. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you are training lawyer, as you are training medical man, you can train some men like that. It is possible. If you train from the childhood, it is possible. It doesn't matter from which family he is coming, but it will require, trained up. Just like you have been trained up as lawyer, it doesn't matter from which family you have... It may be lawyer's family or engineer's family. It doesn't matter. But training. So at the present moment, to make the society perfect, a class of men should be trained as it is described here. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if the first*-class men are there, people will consult them, people will follow them, the whole society will be nice. Guest 2: What about soldiers? Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest 2: Soldiers? Prabhupāda: Soldiers, they should be also trained up. They are being trained up. Kṣatriyas. Just read the kṣatriya... Amogha: Prabhupāda: Courage in battle. Guest 2: American soldiers. Prabhupāda: No, whoever may be. Not that I sit down in my armchair and I give direction. The poor soldiers are fighting. No. He should go. Courage. He should personally give direction, "Do like this." Who is doing that? The minister of defense is very comfortably sitting on his chair, and the poor soldiers are fighting. That is not required. He must go first of all: "Do like this." Just like in Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna is in front; the other side, Duryodhana. The real fighters, they are face to face. Soldiers are assistant. Where is that? So they should be trained up. So unless he is by his nature very powerful, śauryam... What is that? Amogha: Śauryam, heroism. *Prabhupāda: Heroism. Therefore the kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt in the forest to become hero because he has to fight. Just like in medical laboratory they first of all dissect some poor animal before touching human being. Therefore kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt to become hero. Facing the tiger, "Come on." And still, say, about twenty*-five years ago, there was a native prince in Jaipur. Every year he would go to the forest and face the tiger, without any weapon. So that is required. Guest 2: That is good? Prabhupāda: That is required. Those who are politicians, those who are going to be president, they must be like that. Guest 2: In our society that wouldn't be thought good. Prabhupāda: No, your society whatever you may be, this is the idea. Guest 1: Well, that's almost the description of General Amin. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guest 1: That's almost the description of General Ahin. Prabhupāda: General...? Guest 2: Where is he? Guest 1: Idi Amin? Uganda. Amogha: There is a general in Africa who is very powerful, but he's demonic. Prabhupāda: No, no. They should not be demonic. Other things are there. Śauryaṁ tejo... Amogha: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership..." Prabhupāda: Generosity. Guest 2: So he hasn't got generosity. Guest 3: No, he's got another one, insanity. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Not insanity. Guest 1: You can't substitute. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there. He must be at the same time... Although he is hero, he must be generous. Just like Alexander the Great. Perhaps you know the story. He arrested one thief. So when he was arrested and he was being judged by Alexander, the thief pleaded that "What is the difference between you and me? You are a great thief. I am a small thief." (laughter) So Alexander understood it and got him released, "Yes." (laughter) This is generosity. He must agree to the principle. Guest 1: Well, there's another one, the battle. You know the big battle where the opposition, what was his name, was on the ground, and he said, "You won't..." Guest 3: ...won't live. Guest 1: It's an Indian. Madhudviṣa: We brought back Wally one picture from India on the battle of Kurukṣetra of Abhimanyu. Abhimanyu's head was there, and Karṇa was on the ground with his chariot, and Arjuna was about to kill him, and Kṛṣṇa was directing him to kill. So I told Wally the story that when Abhimanyu was surrounded by the mahārathīs, there was no mercy then, so now Karṇa was objecting that... Prabhupāda: Injustice. Madhudviṣa: ...he cannot shoot a man if he gets off his chariot. And Kṛṣṇa said, "There was no mercy with Abhimanyu, so therefore there will be no mercy now." Prabhupāda: Tit for tat. (laughter) Guest 1: But where was the generosity then? Prabhupāda: That is happening, tit for tat. Guest 1: Was that generosity, or...? Where was the generosity? Prabhupāda: No. That is war tactics. That is war tactics. Sometimes we have to use war tactics because we have to own victory. But they were generous because in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra they would fight like anything, like enemies, but at night they were friends. The one man is going. Just like sportsman. They fight during the play, but after that, they are friends, talking together, drinking together, like that. Guest 2: Like barristers and prosecutors. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They are paid for fighting. (laughter) But when the fighting is over, they are friends. Guest 1: Sometimes. Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Raymond did not realize that you were going to be so merciful to grant so much time and he thought that you were only going to give about ten minutes, so he left about twenty people back at his house at one party. So he's feeling that he must return. *Raymond: It's my father*-in-law's birthday. Prabhupāda: Oh. Raymond: And it's my son's ninth birthday. Prabhupāda: Oh. Raymond: And what we're doing is we've decided we're going to have the family. *Prabhupāda: That's nice, very nice. So give some prasādam to his son and his father*-in-law. Raymond: And then my wife said, a couple of nights ago my wife said, "Well... Prabhupāda: Take some blessings from the temple. Raymond: Well, thank you very much. *Prabhupāda: For your son and father*-in-law. *Raymond: So we decided to get all of my father*-in-law's friends. He doesn't know yet, and I'm supposed to pick him up, you see, and I was supposed to be there over an hour ago. *Prabhupāda: So you must go on. Oh, yes. It is very nice. It is very nice function. The father*-in-law, the grandson. (chuckles) Give some prasādam for them also. Madhudviṣa: He invited everyone over to one, Ugraśrava's, house one night. We had a big party, and Wally came and Raymond came, and they became very much addicted to prasādam. (laughter) *Prabhupāda: Make his father*-in-law also interested. Raymond: Well, he was here on Sunday. He came down on Sunday. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes? So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice. We can make friend anyone. So you are going? Thank you very much for your coming. Raymond: Thank you very much for your time. You've been most gracious and kind with us. I hope you have a nice trip. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Madhudviṣa: He's coming back in January too. Maybe then we can have a longer meeting. Prabhupāda: It is very nice place. I wish to stay here but I have got so many branches I have to go. Raymond: Good night. Prabhupāda: Good night. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest 1: I think you must be very happy to see what's happened in Melbourne. Prabhupāda: Yes, I am very happy. This house is quite suitable for our purpose. Guest 1: They looked very hard and for a long time. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest 1: And they had a lot of difficulty. This is one of the things that I imagine, you know, the story that the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church owned this property. And it was almost by devious means that it was acquired. Prabhupāda: They did not want to give us? Guest 1: He didn't want to sell direct, like that. Because that beautiful building across there, I think you saw photos... Amogha: The convent. Śrīla Prabhupāda went through the convent. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Guest 1: They, we found out or the suggestion was... Because there were little power groups in that church that possibly the senior people don't know about, but they objected for some reason, which is very hard to understand. *Prabhupāda: In London we wanted to purchase one church that was not working. In London. But when we approached that priest, the in*-charge, not directly to me but one of my disciples, he informed him that "I shall better set fire in this church. Still, I shall not give to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness." *Guest 1: That's one reason that the main religion has possibly become bad in the eyes of non*-religious people when they hear something like that. Because you could assume that whatever religion, if a person was religious... Prabhupāda: Religion means God. God is one. Guest 1: ...that that should aid all religions. And the more Kṛṣṇas there are, the more other religious people might benefit. Yet they can't see it. *Prabhupāda: According to Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, religion means the law given by God. Just like law means the act given by the state. You cannot manufacture law, I cannot manufacture law. From that purport (?) give me. So Mr. Raymond has gone? Devotee: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: He has taken some prasāda? Devotee: Yes, we gave him some prasāda. Prabhupāda: Give him. Guest 2: Bob's in a similar position almost to Raymond. His wife's expecting a baby any minute. Prabhupāda: Oh. That's nice. How many children he has got? Guest 1: Four. Thank you. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. Putra*-hīnaṁ gṛhaṁ śūnyam. Family without children, it is vacant. But people, now they are under this consciousness that family without children. No, that is not. Family means with children. Otherwise it is desert. Putra-hīnaṁ gṛhaṁ śūnyam. Śūnyam means zero. Guest 1: One thing I wondered about. In our terms sometimes you can find a person that you admire or who you believe does good, but he professes to be an atheist. I'm thinking about a person like Bertrand Russell. Prabhupāda: No, our ideas are standard. We are not manufacturing any idea. Just like whatever we speak, immediately we give evidence from the śāstra. That is our standard. We accept standard idea, and the standard idea means the ideas given by God. That is standard. There is no mistake. There is no cheating, There is no illusion. Any idea we form, that is prone to these four defects. One defect is that we are prone to commit mistake. We are prone to be illusioned. And our senses are imperfect. So being subjected to mistaken idea, illusioned idea, our senses being imperfect, if we want to give some law, that is cheating. Guest 1: So the answer to every question is in there. Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not pose myself that I am perfect. These ideas I am giving, that is perfect. Guest 1: Is that open to interpretation or is it very... Can two people read... Prabhupāda: Interpretation... When you do not understand the word, then you can give interpretation. Otherwise there is no chance of interpreting. Guest 1: If two devotees read that, the meaning is the same, but... Prabhupāda: Two devotees. Just like you are eating this sweet. So everyone will say, "Yes, he is eating sweet." And where is the question of interpretation? Everyone knows that you are eating sweet. So if I say this gentleman is eating sweet, so who will object to this? "No, no, my interpretation is different." What is that interpretation? This is a fact. Guest 2: Yes, but I think that's a simple example. Prabhupāda: So when you can understand directly, where is the question of interpretation? You cannot give interpretation. Guest 1: I've read some of these, which are very difficult to understand. And I have seen the boys with writing in there which is help in their understanding of it where you could say fifteen words, but to a simple reading of them, they're very complicated. Prabhupāda: No, this is... Therefore purport is given there. The explanation is given there. And even after that, if one cannot understand, then we are here. The devotees are there. I am there. There is no difficulty. Guest 2: But I think it's easier if you have a teacher. Prabhupāda: Of course, everything requires teacher. So we are giving the purport, that means we are teaching. Not only the verse is there, the translation is there, but we giving a purport. And even from the verse. Just like this verse, śamo damaḥ, yes. Amogha: Prabhupāda: These are different words. You can understand what is the meaning of śamaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the mind. So damaḥ means controlling the senses. If you first of all control the mind, then you can control the senses. Then śamo damaḥ sattvam. Amogha: Tapaḥ śaucam. *Prabhupāda: Tapaḥ. Tapaḥ, tapasya, austerity. Austerity. Then you have to consult what is the austerity? The austerity is, beginning of austerity is the sex control. That is austerity, brahmacarya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa [SB 6.1.13]. And that brahmacarya you can observe by following certain rules and regulations, Just like these people are following. In this way everything is there, clear. There is no interpretation. You cannot interpret the word water. Everyone knows what is water means. Where is the question of interpreting? Therefore sometimes reference to the teacher is necessary. Otherwise every word is clear. There is no question of interpretation. Now they are irrelevantly interpreting the first verse of Bhagavad*-gītā. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. So they are interpreting Kurukṣetra means this body. And where is the chance of such interpretation? Kurukṣetra, the land, is still there. Just before coming here I went to Kurukṣetra. So why you should interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this body"? Guest 1: This, I think I remember from last year that the boys in New Zealand seemed to have a different interpretation of some of them, didn't they? Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be, but we don't agree with that. We don't agree with that. Everyone has got the right to interpret in a different way, but we have to accept paramparā, the disciplic succession. Just like I have given one burfi. Everyone knows it is burfi, and if somebody interprets, "It is stone," so it will not be accepted. Everyone knows it is burfi, nice sweetmeat. Why shall I call it stone? But if somebody says, "I can interpret in this way," he can say, but it will not be accepted. Amogha: Maybe you'd like to come to ārātrika. It's just starting, ārātrika ceremony. Guest 2: I'd like to very much, but we'd better go home because... Amogha: You've got something on? They have things that they have to do. Guest 1: Later, at 8 o'clock, I've got a meeting, some people coming to my home. My wife's away having a holiday, and our youngest boy's come home, and I'm taking that chance to work long hours to get a lot of things done. Prabhupāda: What is holiday? Guest 1: For the school children, yes. Amogha: Schools are not in session all over Australia. Prabhupāda: This is winter holiday? Guest 1: There are three terms. This is the first term holiday. Amogha: They divide the year into three parts, and after each part they have a holiday. Prabhupāda: We have got in India two period holiday, summer holiday and Pūjā holiday. There is a season for worshiping different types of demigods. That is called Pūjā. And in India when the summer becomes too hot, that is holiday. (guests prepare to leave) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Guest 1: I wish you a good trip and a happy trip. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest 1: And also I hope that the building in Sydney eventuates. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guest 1: That you will see or hear about tomorrow morning. Amogha: They're working on that tonight. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Off this light. (end) Conversation in car -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne Devotee (1): ...when you talk to them of going to the spiritual world they say they would believe if there was someone present that has come back to tell them of the spiritual world. But otherwise... Prabhupāda: How he will believe that someone has come? The first, next question will be, how you will believe. I will present a man. Śrutakīrti: They don't believe. Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of bringing that man? Śrutakīrti: We tell them that you have come, (Prabhupāda laughs) but they'll not accept it. Prabhupāda: No, I have come and that I shall think over. First of all let me know how you will believe. Suppose if I say, "I have come from spiritual world," will he believe? Śrutakīrti: That's what I'm saying. No, they don't. Prabhupāda: Therefore the method of his believing I must know. Then I present the man. What is the method of believing? Otherwise I can say, "I have come from spiritual world. You believe me." Will he believe it? Will he? Devotee (1): Well, I would, but I do not think... Prabhupāda: No, no, you may, you are my disciple. You may believe. But will he believe? Devotee (1): No, he will not believe, no. Prabhupāda: Then let me know first of all how he will believe. Then according to his belief, I shall bring man. Śrutakīrti: By seeing some miracles, they will believe. Devotee (1): Someone with three heads possibly, or... Prabhupāda: There is sometimes a child is born with three heads. Sometimes it is. (laughter) Devotee (1): Yes. *Prabhupāda: Therefore in Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, idaṁ te na atapaskāya. Those who have no life of penance and austerities, don't talk with them. It will be a waste of time. You know that there is verse in the Bhagavad-gītā? In Eighteenth Chapter. Idaṁ te na atapaskāya, māṁ ca yaḥ abhyasūyati: "Persons who are envious of Me and those who have not undergone austerity and penances, don't talk with them." But we take the risk. We go even to these rascals. Because for Kṛṣṇa's sake, "Never mind, it will take some time. Let me try this rascal." Therefore the easiest process is that every rascal will agree to take nice food and dance. So induce them to come to us, dance, and take nice food. Let them come on this ground. And by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa, gradually they will be all right. This is the policy. So far argument, logic, philosophy is concerned, they are beyond... Because they are animal. They cannot understand. Devotee (2): You have it's just like when someone has jaundice and he sees everything as yellow and you cannot convince him if something is white. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Devotee (2): He must become purified. Prabhupāda: So therefore, the treatment is, some way or other, induce them to come and chant and dance with us and take prasādam. This program should be accelerated. Śrutakīrti: Spiritual life starts with the tongue. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. Devotee (3): Like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the solicitor there last night. When I first made contact with him, he took two days to think about it whether he would act for us or not. And now, through association, he's becoming more purified, stopped eating meat, stopped smoking cigarettes, and now he likes us very much. Prabhupāda: He is being purified himself? Devotee (3): . Yes. *Prabhupāda: So we have to take little patience. That is preaching work. Don't be impatient. Let us do our duty on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. Even the result is not very appreciable, still we have to do it. This is preaching. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu. He was hurt by Jagāi*-Mādhāi. Still, He determined, "No, these two boys must be delivered." This is the example. "Never mind, they have injured Me; *still, I shall deliver them." And He did it. They became Vaiṣṇava. So our preaching determination should be like that, not that we are failure in some cases, and therefore give it up. No. This is our business. We must go on doing this. Failure or success, it doesn't matter. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to preach. He never said, "If you are failure, don't preach." Never said that. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa*-upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Whomever you meet, you just give him the instruction of Kṛṣṇa." He never says that "If somebody does not hear you, don't do it." No. Kṛṣṇa said that "Don't talk with the fools and rascals and those who are not undergone some penances." Śrutakīrti: So we are following Lord Caitanya's... Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I came to western country with no hope. I knew that my Godbrother, Bon Mahārāja, came, he failed. Then Gosvāmī Mahārāja was there, so many swamis and yogis came here, nobody could turn them. So I came here just with a purpose, "Let me try." But I was not hopeful at all. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, it is now successful. Devotee (1): A great success. Prabhupāda: And therefore let us try. And success, no success, depend on Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (1): Already I have noticed a difference with the new temple which has opened in Melbourne, with the group of adults that are coming around to become interested now because we have a permanent place here. Prabhupāda: On the whole, we have got very nice house. (Prabhupāda gets out of car and is greeted by devotees) Thank you. (end) Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne Śrutakīrti: The following is Prabhupāda's final morning walk in Melbourne, Australia, in the Botanical Gardens on May 23rd, 1975. Prabhupāda: ...filled with fruits and flowers, then it would have invited many nice birds. But they do not know that. [break] ...chirping, the beauty of the gardens would have been more beautiful. But they cannot invite. There is no fruits, no flower. Sabhāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, all the devotees on the walk this morning, they are the book distributors. Prabhupāda: Huh? Sabhāpati: They are the Australian book distributors, all the devotees on the walk this morning. Prabhupāda: It is a fact that they do not grow fruit trees because people will eat and will not work? Is that the policy? Somebody told me like that, that if there is enough fruit, then people will eat and they will not work. Amogha: The fruit business would go down also. The fruit stands would not be able to sell much. Prabhupāda: Just see. Bad policy. Śrutakīrti: The government does that. On some farmers they will pay them not to grow to keep the price high. Prabhupāda: Kill animals. Just see the policy. Instead of growing natural food, they will kill animal. Purposefully sinful life. Śrutakīrti: But they still have to grow food for the animal. They're growing the food, but they give it to the animal. Prabhupāda: Fruit? Śrutakīrti: No, the food. They grow food for the animals, but then they kill the animal. *Prabhupāda: Just see. They can grow food both for the animals and for human being. Instead, they are simply growing food for the animals and killing them. Tā'ra madhye jihwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati. You sing this before taking prasādam. The tongue is the greatest enemy and greedy. Tā'ra madhye jihwā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati. For the satisfaction of the tongue they are risking their own life and committing sinful life to suffer later on. Therefore the first-class man's first duty is to śamaḥ, controlling the mind. If one can control the mind, that "If I can live with grains, food, and milk, why shall I kill the ani...?" this is controlling the mind. They cannot control even this small thing. "Live and let live,"*-this policy they do not follow. "Live and kill others." "Live at the cost of others." *Australian devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it says in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that the weaker are the subsistence of the strong. So therefore human beings, they feel justified... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the... but where is the human consciousness? A tiger cannot understand this. He will kill a lower animal. But you are not animal; you are man. You should have this discrimination, that "If I can live otherwise very nicely, why shall I kill animal?" That is humanity. Australian devotee 1: But also, is not eating vegetables killing a living entity also? Prabhupāda: No, it is not killing. If you take fruit, where is the killing? The tree is there. If you takes food grains, the food grains, after being produced, the tree dies automatically. Śrutakīrti: Yeah. Wheat is harvested after it dies, not while it is alive. Prabhupāda: Yes. Australian devotee 2: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New Zealand we have a situation where the main industry is killing animals, the biggest industry, yet there is so much rain, so much nice atmosphere over there. Why is this? Why is there such a nice atmosphere but they are killing so many cows? Is that that they are innocent and they do not know and so Kṛṣṇa is not punishing them so much? Prabhupāda: Yes, they will be punished. (pause) [break] ...so many motor accidents. And there will be war. Then wholesale punishment. Then killing, being killed within the womb of the mother. They are being punished. Nowadays these things have been introduced. Now this child which is being killed by the mother, they are all these sinful men. They cannot come out even, out of the womb of the mother. There they are killed. Nature's law is very strict. Australian devotee 3: In the western society, Śrīla Prabhupāda, people who are displaying a very bad sinful reaction in their birth are put away in institutions so they cannot be seen by the general mass of people. Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that? *Śrutakīrti: He's saying people that are suffering very greatly in this life-they have so many mental disorders or physical disorders*-they put them in institutions so that no one can see them. Prabhupāda: No one can see them. That means they are not suffering? (laughter) Just see how foolish persons. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning we have seen already a reaction is coming about against the killing of unborn children. There is one big poster that is being put up by a protest group which says, "The Queen Victoria Hospital kills unborn babies. Protest now," like this. So there is, I think, it's the Right to Life Movement in Victoria here that is fighting against this abortion activity. Prabhupāda: But they are so sinful that they are unable to carry out. Upadeśo hi mūrkhāṇāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye. If there is a serpent, if you advise him, "Please do not kill; be gentleman," will be become? Snake. Snake will kill, unnecessarily bite and kill. Sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ sarpāt krūrataraḥ khalaḥ: "There are two envious living entities. One is the serpent and other is the envious man. So the envious man is more dangerous than the serpent." Why? Now, the serpent can be charmed by drugs and by mantra, but this man cannot be charmed. So this advice will not act. They are so dangerous than the serpent. Australian devotee 3: How, then, can we advise them, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they are like serpents? How can we...? Prabhupāda: You can advise only, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right," this one medicine. You can simply make plan how they will chant and take prasādam. Then everything all right. This simple method. Bring them: "Please come here, chant, dance, and take prasādam." They will be all good men. This process. Otherwise if you give them good advice, they will not be able to carry it. They are so sinful. Their treatment, the only treatment, is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Somehow or other, bring them together. Let them chant. Let them dance and take prasādam. They will be all right. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. There is no other means to rectify them. We are opening centers different parts of the world just to give them chance, "Please come here, take prasādam, chant, dance, enjoy," but that transcendental enjoyment will make them correct. We are the best friends of the human society. Hari-śauri: There are so many altruistic movements, but actually there is no peace coming about. Prabhupāda: It is not effective. Just like the government spending to stop drug habit, millions of dollars, no use, but as soon as they come to us, immediately they give up. But still, the rascal will not pay the money to us. (laughter) We are doing so much benefit, but they will not pay. If you ask them money, "No, no, our money is not for religious purpose. For science. Our money is for science." Science means how, scientifically, you can kill cows. This is science. How, scientifically, you can become less than cats and dogs. This is their science. The cats and dogs also, they do not kill their children, but they are scientific advanced; the doctor advises, "Kill it." Australian devotee 2: Śrīla Prabhupāda, most of the people in the western world are Christians and they say the cow has no soul. *Prabhupāda: This is not the question of Christian or western. This is the disease of the whole world. It is not that only the westerners are accused, not the others. No, it is... We don't say like that. Everyone... This is the influence of this Kali*-yuga. Australian devotee 2: They feel justified in killing because they say the animal has no soul. Prabhupāda: Just see how fool they are. Therefore we simply say these are rascals. They have not even the common sense of an uneducated man. And they are scientist. Why there is no soul? What is the proof? What is their argument? Why they say there is no soul? What is the argument? Australian devotee 2: Because it says in the Bible that until one accepts Jesus Christ one has no soul. Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ said that animal has no soul? Has he said like that? Has he said? Australian devotee 2: He says that one must be born again. Prabhupāda: Never he can say like that. He is not such a fool. He cannot say that. Australian devotee 4: Like this priest said the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He said that the human being has a spirit soul, but the animal just has a soul. (laughter) Prabhupāda: (laughs) The same thing. "Everyone is sinful, but we are pure sinful." (laughter) Pure sinful. Hari-śauri: Actually most sinful activity appears to be promoted by the government for economic development. They have big state lotteries. They are planning to spend six million dollars developing a greyhound racing park here in Australia. Prabhupāda: Just see. This is nice place to walk. Why on the ups and downs? Śrutakīrti: We have a bad tour guide. Hari-śauri: You were speaking before about controlling the tongue is very important. And in your lectures you have said simply by eating prasādam this is controlling the tongue. But still, we have tendency when there is a big feast to eat very much prasādam. Is this a good thing, or...? Prabhupāda: (chuckles) It is not very good, but it is still good. Instead of going to the restaurant and eat like the hogs and dogs, better take more prasādam. There is no harm. Kṛṣṇa baṛo doyāmoy, koribāre jihwā jay. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. Just to conquer over our tongue He has given us nice variety of prasāda. Take it and control your tongue. Yes. Hmm. Don't come very near. Australian devotee 5: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling this government man the other day not to kill the cows but to wait till they die. But they have a law that if the cow dies naturally, then it cannot be eaten. Prabhupāda: That means we must commit sin. The government... Amogha: I think their idea is that if... Prabhupāda: But their argument is fallacious. Kill means it dies. So how we can eat? Just see the... See their intelligence. Kill means it dies. Śrutakīrti: They say that if it dies naturally it is due to some disease, so there may be some harm in eating such meat. Prabhupāda: So that means nobody will die. Is there... The law is it to die. Why disease? Disease or no disease, everyone should die. Śrutakīrti: But if we kill the cow without it, while it is healthy, then it is very good to eat the meat. Prabhupāda: Yes, but the argument is die. As soon as you kill, it is died. As soon as you take the fish out of the water it dies. So how you can say that dead animal is not good? It is dead. For argument's sake, "A dead animal is not good," but you make him dead. Then you eat. Where is the argument that dead animal is bad? You are eating dead. That means they are not even common sense. That is the rascaldom. Rascal means one who has no common sense even. Australian devotee 5: They would say then, "Why don't you let the vegetables die naturally before you eat the vegetables?" Prabhupāda: Vegetable? We are not talking of vegetable; we are talking of animals. Why don't you kill your father? Old father, useless, kill him and eat. Hari-śauri: Actually they are not very much concerned about their parents anymore either. They put them in institutions also when they get too old. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, time will come; they will kill their father. Now they are killing their children. Now they will kill their father. As soon as the whole world will become Communist they will kill the old man, as the Africans, they do it. Africans kill their grandfather, and it is a festival. Yes. They throw the grandfather on the roof of the cottage, and it, rolling down, it falls down. Twice, thrice it dies. That becomes a great festival of the grandsons. They are eating grandfather. Glorious grandsons. Australian devotee 6: Then they eat the grandfather's brain. Prabhupāda: And, you do not know, they like to eat white men. (laughter) Yes. They kidnap or capture, some way or other, one white man, and they eat it very nicely. Australian devotee 6: They say that the grandfather is very learned so they eat his brain so they can get his knowledge. Prabhupāda: Oh, they say like that? Oh, just see. He eats the experience. Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. Śrutakīrti: You were saying about how, in the car, that one eats the cow, they say, because it is sāttvika. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Śrutakīrti: So the spiritual master, he is even more sāttvika so he should be eaten. Prabhupāda: So eat the spiritual master. Hari-śauri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are these cannibalistic tribes, Amazons and whatever, are they classed as subhuman? Prabhupāda: They are uncivilized. They are human being. Hari-śauri: So do they... Prabhupāda: Human being comes to perfection when he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So gradually they would have to come. Just like the bud of rose flower. When it is bud it is not so useful. When it fructifies, becomes a blossomed rose, then it is useful. Similarly, human being in other stages of life they are like buds. When they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then they are blossomed flower. Hari-śauri: But if they're committing so many sinful activities, murdering their father and like this, then how will they get to that stage of being able to approach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Prabhupāda: No, it will be checked. It will be checked. Just like if there is some worm in the bud, then the growing will be checked. Śrutakīrti: Are the lower human species responsible for sinful activities? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As soon as one is human being, he is responsible. Just like your state laws. Suppose a aborigine comes and does something criminal, will he be excused? Animal may be excused, but the man will not be excused. Australian devotee 7: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they mightn't excuse him, but they mightn't treat him as harshly as they would treat somebody in knowledge. Is this the same with the activities that these people perform? Prabhupāda: What is that? Śrutakīrti: He said he wouldn't be treated as bad because an aborigine is not considered... Australian devotee 7: He hasn't got the knowledge. He's ignorant. Prabhupāda: Still he is not excused by the law. Australian devotee 6: He would be treated leniently. Australian devotee 7: Would he be treated more leniently than someone that has knowledge. Prabhupāda: I do not know that. But ignorance is no excuse. Australian devotee 8: Or that example, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You said that the people in India are being punished more because they are in knowledge. They have the *Vedas*. Prabhupāda: Hm. Amogha: On an earlier walk you were saying there are three kinds of Vedic evidence. Śruti, itihāsa, and anumāna, was it? I didn't understand what anumāna was. Prabhupāda: Hypothesis. Hypothesis. Just like yesterday I was explaining that as soon as there is a machine, there is an operator. This is hypothesis. You cannot expect machine going on without operator. Similarly, this material nature is a machine and the operator is God. This is hypothesis. Even though you do not see God we can make this suggestion. That is human reasoning, logic. If any ordinary typewriter machine... This is a machine, but that requires operator. He is pushing this button; then it is working. It is not automatically working, any machine. So how this big machine is operating without any operator? What is this nonsense? They say, "There is no God. Nature, nature." What is the nature? Nature is a machine. Just like this body. This body is machine, and the operator is the soul, and the guide is the Supersoul. As soon as the soul goes away, then the machine does not work. This is common sense. But they have no common sense; *therefore they are rascals, so*-called scientists and others. Sabhāpati: So who is the greater rascal, the material scientist or the... Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Everyone who... That is the statement. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. This class of men, they do not recognize God. Who? Those who are sinful, rascals, lowest of the mankind. Such people do not recognize God. Mūḍhas. (indistinct) educated. No, that education means false education. Real education is taken away by māyā. Real education means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. If one does not understand what is God, his education is useless. It has no meaning. What is that education? Will that education save him from death? Then what is the value of his education? Your real problem is birth, death, old age, and disease. Can this material education stop it? Is the scientist able to stop one's old age? And does anyone, man, any man, wants to become old? No, nobody wants. Everyone wants to keep himself youthful. But can the science stop this, that he will not become old? He must become old. Australian devotee 2: They say that the value of their education is that very soon they will be able to overcome birth, death, disease, and old age, that they almost have the solution. They are freezing people's bodies... Prabhupāda: Therefore younger generation, they are not interested in education. They see that, after all, the life is vacant even after education. Hari-śauri: The leaders appear to have adopted a stopgap policy so that they can keep the people in ignorance and fool them that they are doing some good when actually they are not, so that they can maintain their position as leader. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...bahir*-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it. Why do they go to the physician as soon as one is diseased? Why do they go? Amogha: They want to be well. *Prabhupāda: Yes, then "well" means they want to save themself from death. That means they want not to die. But death is there. Then where is the solution of problem? But they have no brain to think that "What these rascals will do? My problem is there. It is not solved." And still they accept. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said, śva*-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. They are eulogized, they are praised, glorified, by another animal. He is an animal, big animal, and a small animal says, "Oh, you are our leader." The big animal is praised by the small animal. Both of them are animals. None of them are human being. So this is going on. A big animal bluffs him that "I have done so much for you. You give me vote." That's all. And the small animal thinks, "Yes, he has done so much. Give him vote." This is going on. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that one blind man is leading other blind men. What is the use? Australian devotee 6: They say at death, there is death then finish. Prabhupāda: But if you will be finished, then why you are attempting so much? Sit down now. Why you are making advancement of civilization? Australian devotee 6: For their children, they say. *Prabhupāda: If you advance in civilization or do not advance in civilization, you will die. That is sure. Then why do you labor so much? Huh? The animals, they do not labor so much. They live peacefully on the condition of the nature. Why do you labor so much? If the result is the same-the animal will die and you will die-then why you are laboring so much for nothing? That means they have no common sense even. Therefore they are rascals. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "If you think there was no life before this body and if you think that there will be no life after this body, then why you are anxious for the body of your brothers and sisters?" So all these philosophies have been discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. After all, the conclusion is that they are all rascals. That's all. We have to take them as such rascals. After death everything is finished*-that a child knows-but why you are making so permanent building? Piling, (imitates pile driver sound) "Donkhs! Hari-śauri: Their excuse is that they are leaving something for the next generation, for their children. Prabhupāda: But they will also not live. Australian devotee 1: They think they will be recognized by their good works. Prabhupāda: That means asses. The asses think that "I will be recognized by my work." He takes so much labor, load, although nothing, not a grain of the load belongs to him. But he takes the load unnecessarily. So this is their business. He will not live, his son will not live, his grandson will not live, but he is making permanent business. Amogha: But when we're living we can enjoy. Prabhupāda: Yes, that enjoy. Pramattaḥ. They are called madmen. Pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. They know it certainly, "Every one of us will die," but seeing also, they do not see. And that is madman. Pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. That the animal, he is seeing that "One animal is being killed. Next time is mine," but still eating grass. He has no anxiety. This is called pramattaḥ paśyann api na paśyati. This is animal life, that even though fact is there, they will close their eyes. That's all. This is animal life. Australian devotee 1: Śrīla Prabhupāda, even if there is a life after death, I don't know what it's going to be like, so why should I worry about it now? Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are a man, you should be worried. Because you are not human being, next life you are going to be cat, you should be worried. Australian devotee 1: But the cats and the dogs, they are also happy. Prabhupāda: And if you want to become cats and dogs and happy, you be. Don't worry. That's all. But we are worried: "Why shall I become cat and dog? We shall go back to home, live with Kṛṣṇa." That is our ambition. Your ambition is to become cat and dog. You become. Australian devotee 6: They are happy with that. Prabhupāda: That's all right. You become happy. But we are not happy. What is the idea here? Amogha: They want it to grow straight up. It looks like it started to go sideways. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...human being who knows things that I explained this thing that by nature's process I have come to this human body. Now what is next progress? That is human being. And even still I remain cats and dog but they have no inquiry, then what is the use of getting this human body? Australian devotee 4: Why, then, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is a person given a human body then, if they... Prabhupāda: Yes, that means better conscience. He can consider so many things. "Why I am dying? I do not want to die. Why there are so many miserable condition?" We are covering because there is miserable condition of this winter. I don't want to suffer from cold. Therefore I am covered. So this is struggle for existence. The human being can understand that why there is struggle? Why not I am happy naturally? This question must be there. Otherwise he is cat and dog. The dogs do not inquire all these things. Then if you have no such power to inquire and understand, then you are no better than dog. And if you are happy to remain cats and dogs, that is your business. But a real human being, he will never be happy. That is human being. Everyone is trying to improve his material condition. Therefore the motor car is going here and there, here and there. Why they are trying? Let them remain satisfied in any condition. The modern economic law is that create new necessities of life. Australian devotee 6: They think that you might as well enjoy while you can. Prabhupāda: Yes, if working hard like ass is enjoyment, let them enjoy. Let these rascals enjoy like that. Australian devotee 2: Why do so many humans, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they do not use their propensity to ask the questions? They simply live like animals. Prabhupāda: Because they are animal. They are educated like animal. Australian devotee 2: So it is the fault of the education. *Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the responsibility of the government, guardians, father. They do not give them proper education. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "If you cannot give proper education to your children, then don't marry. Don't become father." That is contraceptive. If you are unable to give... What is that? Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta*-mṛtyum. Samupeta-mṛtyum: this body means you have accepted death. This body means, material body. So one should not become a father if he cannot stop the death of his son. That is the Vedic injunction. "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot train your children so that he may be saved from this impending death." That is the instruction. And who is doing that? Their philosophy is: "After death everything is finished. I will be finished. My child will be finished. That's all." [break] Australian devotee 2: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, they can teach these people how to educate the youngsters. Is this right? Prabhupāda: Therefore so many books. [break] *Hari-śauri: ...the verse that you have put in the front of the first volume of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, kṛṣṇe sva-dhāmopagate, that the Bhāgavatam can give light even to people in ignorance. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kalau naṣṭa*-dṛśām. Naṣṭa-dṛśām: "They have lost their sight, what is the progress of life. They have lost their sight." (devotees offer obeisances as Prabhupāda enters car) (end) Radio Interview -- May 25, 1975, Fiji Śrutakīrti: The following is an interview which took place on May 25, 1975, in Lautoka, Fiji, which was later broadcast on a local radio station. Interviewer: Why did you choose to go to America and propagate the teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa in a western country? *Prabhupāda: Because Indian people, being subjugated for at least one thousand years, they have lost their original culture. And, being poverty*-stricken, they are simply after money, by hook and crook. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayā apahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. Persons who have lost their consciousness on account of being too much attached to material enjoyment, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I thought that America, they have enjoyed enough of this material happiness, money and women, and they are now becoming disappointed. So they are at least on the platform of renunciation. They don't want any more like their fathers and grandfathers. Of course, they are not guided. Therefore I preferred to go there to guide them. So almost fifty percent of my devotees are, they are collected from these disappointed persons, young men. They are going astray. So they appreciate that I have saved them. Therefore they are after me, this younger generation, and they are helping me in broadcasting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Interviewer: These Oriental philosophies generally and in particular the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has found a lot of devotees in the western civilization. What is the main reason for this? *Prabhupāda: You are thinking this is Oriental civilization, but that is not the fact. The fact is this is human civilization. There is no question of east and west. Every living being, not only human being, even other beings-there are 8,400,000's forms of life*-and Kṛṣṇa claims that Interviewer: Coming back to this question of the western type of civilization, do you feel that the success of the movement in the western society is an indication of the need being felt by the western man that has been lacking in spiritual ideologies? *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. But the thing is that they are very intelligent. There is no doubt about it. Materially, they are always advanced. Materially, when they are manufacturing machine of the airship, in India we are manufacturing sewing machine or cycle. I have seen in the World Fair the Indians were very proud of manufacturing cycle and sewing machine, whereas the Americans and Europeans, they were showing the how subtle machine of this jet plane are there. So materially, they are advanced. There is no doubt about it. Hundred years. But spiritually they are not. Therefore, I am an Indian, poor Indian*-they are coming to me. Because they understand that spiritually... Not only me, any swami who go, they crowd to him, "If there is something spiritual?" Unfortunately, the other swamis, they go to exploit them, to cheat them. They do not... Neither they do know what is spiritual life; neither they could give them. For example, for the last two..., hundred years or more than that the swamis are going; not a single person was a Kṛṣṇa devotee in the history in the western countries. Interviewer: Swamiji, it's been said sometimes that India has too much philosophy and the west has too much materialism. Prabhupāda: Yes. Interviewer: Where is the right balance in this modern world? Prabhupāda: Balance is that you should be reciprocal exchange. What you haven't got, you give me; what I haven't got, I give you. This should be the process of exchange. Then the world will be united. When there is exchange of gifts. But our India followed the principle for begging. "Give me men. Give me money. Give me wheat. Give me rice. Give me war materials." Simply begging. So we must give something. This is the first time we are giving something. Otherwise, India was a beggar simply to the western countries. For their technical education they are going to the western countries, and when there is war, they are asking America, "Please give us war materials." And when they give war materials to Pakistan we become envious. But you are also taking rice, ḍāl for this(?). So why should you remain beggar? Interviewer: Finally Swamiji, what is the relevance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in our modern society? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Interviewer: What would be the relevance of Kṛṣṇa's teaching in... *Prabhupāda: Relevance mean you are spirit soul. You are not this body. This thing first you have to understand. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is India's philosophy, that "I am spirit soul." And if you realize brahmāsmi, brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na... [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as you realize that you are not this material body, you are spirit soul, then immediately you become jolly, prasannātmā. Prasannātmā means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He has no more any hankering for things which he does not possess, no more any lamenting which he has lost. Take, for example, that we have lost our portion of country as Pakistan and fighting since... This was a plan by the British government that divide them in such a way. They will perpetually fight. They will never be happy. This was their plan. That has been successful. But we are lamenting. Both... Pakistan is lamenting or not, I do not know, but Hindustan is lamenting. Gandhi was against this partition. But Jawaharlal Nehru, just to become prime minister, immediately divided. Interviewer: Thank you. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- May 27, 1975, Honolulu Śrutakīrti: The following is Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk conversation in Honolulu, Hawaii, on May 27th, 1975, on Waikiki Beach. *Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] ...and the water. (Hindi). [break] ...and one fourth land and we are puzzled with the increase of population. But there is no puzzle, three*-fourths water population. Wherever you go, you get immediately many thousand fishes. So just imagine how many fishes are there. These rascals say "Overpopulation." Why not overpopulation there? Huh? The fishes, for want of food, they are dying and floating? Why overpopulation? All their calculation are simply bogus. There is no question of overpopulation. Even... Just like people simply can live on mango and coconut. Where is the question of over-population? It is chastisement. When one cannot get proper food, that is not due to overpopulation. It is due to godlessness. As soon as people will become godless, nature will chastise them-no food, no rain, suffer. This is law. (?) [break] ...signpost. Guru kṛpā: Private property . Prabhupāda: Everything is private, nobody..., nothing belongs to God. This is their idea. [break] Guru kṛpā: ...mountain? Prabhupāda: Yes, the timiṅgila, they are as big as this mountain. Guru kṛpā: I wouldn't want to meet one of those. Prabhupāda: You can go, and you will find in his belly. [break] You think simply small fishes are there? As the ocean is big, similarly, very, very big fishes are there. [break] ...up. Remain deep in the water. [break] Guru kṛpā: A very dark condition. Prabhupāda: Why dark condition? They are living very happily. Guru kṛpā: It's dark in the bottom of the ocean. Prabhupāda: No, not dark. They have got their light. Everywhere arrangement is there. Otherwise how they can live? Guru kṛpā: It's also very cold in the bottom of the ocean. Prabhupāda: Cold for you, (laughter) not for them (laughs). Everything, these rascal scientists consider in relation, relatively. But relative world means every living being is relatively existing with a condition. And he is thinking only his relative condition. That is their foolishness. You cannot fly in the sky; a small bird will fly. That is called relative world. For his condition, it is different from you. Śrutakīrti: They've done filming at the bottom of the sea, and they've seen many of the fish at the bottom of the sea, in the deep portions, they make their own light. From their bodies they have light. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like down this planet there are dark... There are many other planets, Talātala... They are dark. The sunshine does not go there. But there are serpents who has got big, big jewels on the hood. That makes the light. Devotee (1): Maṇi. They're called maṇi. *Prabhupāda: Ah, ah. [break] ...kim asau na bhayaṅkaraḥ. "A serpent decorate with jewel, is it not ferocious?" Similarly a bad man, even if he is so*-called learned and scientist, he is also ferocious... [break] ...demon. Bad man means who does not recognize the supremacy of God. Bad man. This is bad, demon. *Bali*-mardana: The scientists say that in the beginning of the planet there were only little bacteria and algae. *Prabhupāda: His father, his great*-grandfather. The scientists' great-grandfather, bacteria. Because from that bacteria his father developed and he was born, so therefore the bacteria his great-grandfather. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, they say that. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. Then how you got so much knowledge? *Bali*-mardana: From fossils. Prabhupāda: From bacteria? How rascals they are. *Bali*-mardana: Prabhupāda, in the Bhāgavatam it also states that there are nine divisions of creation, and that in the first creation there's the plants and trees. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but these different bodies, and the soul is transmigrating, that they do not know. The soul is getting a different type of body according to his desires, not the body is developing. This I have explained many times, that you get the apartment according to the rent you are able to pay, not that a small apartment is becoming a skyscraper building. That is their theory. *Bali*-mardana: But is there a great time period between the different divisions of the creation? Prabhupāda: No, everything is there already. It becomes manifest. Just like beneath the water there is land already. And when the water will dry, land will be manifest. Not that the land is created. No, it is already there. [break] Guru kṛpā: ...told us last time that actually the earth did not come out of the water, but the water receded, and this is how this Hawaii came. Prabhupāda: Huh? Guru kṛpā: There was water covering everything, and then the water receded, and then the land was there. Prabhupāda: Yes. No. From creative method, from water, land has come. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Gross to..., from subtle to gross. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: There are different devastations by water as well. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] There is a Bengali proverb, ādār vapare yahare khabor (?) A man is dealing with ginger. So ginger is used... Suppose we take ginger, a few small pieces. You cannot expect ginger selling in wagons. (laughs) Ginger is accepted*-you purchase one or two pieces, that's all. So a merchant dealing in ginger is asking, "What is the fare of one big freight? I shall take ginger that." He is selling only two pieces, and he's taking information of a big freighter. Similarly, these rascals, they are dealing with small things and contemplate describing (?) life. What about that moon expedition? *Bali*-mardana: Rocks. Prabhupāda: No, rocks, that is the last. Now what is the latest news? *Bali*-mardana: They want to send a satellite to the other planets. Prabhupāda: Moon finished? *Bali*-mardana: Yes, it is not good for... It is too much money. They cannot afford it. Guru kṛpā: It's nothing but rocks anyway there. They think it is nothing but rocks so why waste time, go to some other place. Prabhupāda: Oh. Grapes are sour. Guru kṛpā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Jackal. Jackal and the grapes. The grapes were high. First of all jumped, jumping. Then, when he could not get it, "This is useless. It is sour." Devotee (1): They didn't reach moon at all. Prabhupāda: At all. Jumping, jumping, the jackal says, "Oh, it is no use. It is sour." Devotee (1): I've seen those rocks, moon rocks. They didn't seem much different than our rocks. Prabhupāda: No, no, it is all bogus propaganda. I told it in 1968. No, no, not '68-'58, in my book, Easy Journey to Other Planets. All childish. Then I told in San Francisco in 1968, like that. They asked me, the press reporter, "What is your opinion?" "It is all useless waste of time and energy." *Bali*-mardana: Now they will have to agree with you. It's so much trouble. But the thing is that the scientists will lose their jobs if they do not make people want to go to..., useless things. Prabhupāda: Yes. But one thing is the people in general, they are so rubbish and brainless that they believe. They do not use their common sense. I am also one of the member, but I use my common sense. We have read from the Vedic literature the moon planet is influencing the vegetation in this planet, and there is no vegetation. The moon planet... These are explained that influencing vegetation in this planet. *Bali*-mardana: Some big, big scientists, they had a convention about evolution and geology, but they made a rule at the beginning that during the convention no one could bring up the subject of divine creation or God. And then they will discuss. Prabhupāda: Now they are going to, I mean to say, hold a convention that life is from chemicals. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara told. Japan it is going to be held. And by their resolution, it will be accepted. But they cannot create. *Bali*-mardana: But I had one question. Is it possible to create a suitable environment for life to enter? Prabhupāda: Life enters into the matter. Then it comes out with a particular type of body. The soul enters in the womb of the mother and the mother gives the body. The soul comes through the semina of the father, and then the mother's ovum and father's semina mix together, creates a situation for developing a body. This is the science. Without that living entity there is no question of pregnant. Simply a mixture of matter. No, that is not possible. (Boys heckling in background.) Boys: Rascals! Cheater! *Guru kṛpā: The all*-American family. If the moon is illuminating the earth at night, then how come you have brought back dull pieces of rock. They should have also been shining. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a common sense. Devotee (2): Did they actually land on the moon, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: No, they cannot go there. What is the question of landing? They cannot go there. It is far, far away. What you calculated? 1,600,000 miles away, up the sun planet. 1,600,000 miles above the sun. According to your calculation, the sun is away from this planet by 93,000,000 miles. And above that, 1,600,000 miles. Then you go to the moon. How it is possible? Guru kṛpā: How is the moon behind the sun? Prabhupāda: Not behind, above. Guru kṛpā: It is a bigger planet? Prabhupāda: No. Guru kṛpā: In other words, to elevate oneself to the moon planet, that is harder than going to the sun planet. Prabhupāda: That is God's wish. "You can go up on Me? What is this?" Their calculation is that moon is nearer, is it not? Guru kṛpā: . Yes. Prabhupāda: But not moon is nearer; sun is nearer. And above, in the proportion, 1,600,000 miles, above moon there is Mercury, Mars, in this way, Venus. It is not so easy. Śrutakīrti: The planets are not orbiting the sun. Prabhupāda: No, no. They have got their different orbits. Guru kṛpā: . This is real science, to know these facts. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru kṛpā: So how can you prove that? *Prabhupāda: Vedic literature. Śruti*-pramāṇam. Śruti means Vedas. What is that? That is another island? Devotee: That's the Kaneohe marine base. Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? Guru kṛpā: A marine base, army base. Prabhupāda: Oh. Śrutakīrti: They have missiles. Guru kṛpā: In these mountains, and the mountain opens, the missile comes out. It's ready to be fired, atomic missiles. This whole island is nothing but army bases. The Japanese in the World War II, they first came here and bombed. Prabhupāda: Pearl Harbor. Guru kṛpā: Yeah, and this is a very good place to bomb. Prabhupāda: This is Pearl Harbor? Guru kṛpā: Yes, here. Prabhupāda: No, no. Here it is? No. Guru kṛpā: No, no, this isn't it. This is a very likely place for them to drop their bombs. There's too many marine bases. *Prabhupāda: Where is a sitting place? [break] ...introduce that "Why you are, rascal, you are introducing all this nonsense?" Let them read this. They will become human being. That is the business of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They are reading only all rubbish things and becoming rubbish. Let them read these books, and their human life will be perfect. Na yad vacaś citra*-padaṁ harer yaśaḥ: [SB 1.5.10] "The literature which does not give information of the glories of the Lord," tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham, "it is just like the pleasure place of the crows." So these books are meant for the crows, without any right information, without any God's information. Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasāḥ. The swans will not come there. The pleasure place of the crows is not meant for the swans. They have got different place. Our books are meant for swans, and all these literatures are meant for the crows. Guru kṛpā: The trouble is is that even if we explain these things to most people, factually their only interest is how they can eat, and how they can gratify their senses, and they take these other scientists up as the extracurricular... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is said, bhogaiśvarya*-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām [Bg. 2.44]. "Those who have lost their identity, being captivated by bhoga and aiśvarya, they cannot understand." Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānām. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahataḥ. For slight, so-called happiness they are making big, big problems (projects?). Māyā... bharam. Bharam means big, big problems. (projects?). And sometimes they put forward their whim (?) for the next generation. Now, if Darwin's theory accepted, the monkeys never thought of the next generation, so how you have got this consciousness(?)? Why you are thinking of your next generation? What is the argument? The monkey cannot think that Mr. Nixon will come, become president of this or that, U.S.A. So how he became president without your thinking of the, your forefathers, monkeys? So why you are thinking of your generation? Your forefathers did not. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, but by Darwinism they become reduced to just animals, no better than monkeys. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is meant for the monkeys, not for any sane gentleman. Sane gentleman will think that "I have become now... By evolution I have come to this stage human being. What is next? And that is sane. Guru kṛpā: That is a good argument. *Prabhupāda: He will think, "What is next? Is it finished here?" The rascal says, "No, after finishing, everything is finished." What is this? If there is evolution*-you have come to this stage -then what is the next stage? That is natural. That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. Now you can go to the moon planet if you try. Moon planet, sun planet, Venus and so many. If you become serious. And you can go to God's planet, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Now you select where will you will go. But there is spiritual planet. But what is their theory? That after finishing this body, everything is finished.(?) They do not believe in the next life. *Bali*-mardana: Therefore their life must be hopeless. Prabhupāda: Hopeless, yes. [break] Yes, you can send him to India. Guru kṛpā: But there is no "after" here because there is so much to plant here. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all. Devotee (1): Yesterday at night we got many plants, and this morning also we got lots of more plants, flower plants. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. But somebody may learn from him and go to India. (end) Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu Prabhupāda: This earthly planet also looks bright like the moon? Śrutakīrti: At night? Prabhupāda: No, when it looks bright? Śrutakīrti: Well, they say from space, when looking at earth, it is also bright. Prabhupāda: Bright. But why daytime it is looking bright? Why it is not bright? The moon is bright still, but is it bright? Paramahaṁsa: Is what...? Prabhupāda: This earthly planet is also bright? Paramahaṁsa: I'm not sure. Gurukṛpa: Within this universe are there other planets similar to the earthly planet where the inhabitants are getting the same, similar material bodies? Prabhupāda: No, every planet there are inhabitants. Gurukṛpa: But similar to this? Prabhupāda: Hm. (aside:) Don't come very near. *Gurukṛpa: This is called martya*-loka, and are there other... Prabhupāda: Not similar. Every planet is different from the other. Just like in down planets there is no sunlight, so how they can be one? There the light arrangement is different. [break] *Devotee (1): ...He displays His Vṛndāvana only on the earthly*-like planet? Prabhupāda: Yes, Vṛndāvana is there already. Devotee (1): It's already there? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Devotee (1): Because I know when He comes to the earthly planet and He displays to the human being, and I know that there's the higher and lower planetary systems, but like when He goes to any universe is it always to the earthly*-like planet, lot of times(?) to earth? It's always like that? Prabhupāda: Just like the government has got a circuit house in every big, big cities. Similarly, in every planet there is a replica of Vṛndāvana. Gurukṛpa: But what about Lord Caitanya? He is a little rare. *Prabhupāda: No. Caitanya, also. All incarnation. [break] ... Difficulty is that these foolish man, they cannot understand that God is a person. Therefore they are puzzled. That is the difficulty. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: impersonal Brahman, Paramātmā, localized Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead*-that they cannot understand. They take that impersonal Brahman as important. *Bali*-mardana: Previously people believed in the personal idea, but now they have become very envious. They have tried to get rid of it. *Prabhupāda: More demons. Because with the progress of so*-called civilization, people are becoming more and more demons, so they cannot understand. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti. Mūḍhā, he cannot understand. That is the difficulty. More dull-headed, less intelligent persons are coming. Just see. Formerly there was no skyscraper building. Now they are thinking "So long this body is there, let us enjoy." And the..., in the body, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāra... [Bg. 2.13]. But the soul is within the body-there is no care. And that he is going to become a dog next life, but he is satisfied that "This life I have got this skyscraper building." That's all. *Bali*-mardana: Previously the only big building was the church. Prabhupāda: Yes. Big church or king's royal palace, like that. Ordinary men, they used to live in cottage. That is especially in India. They did not... What is the use? If you are not going to live there... It is a common sense. But they have no idea. They are thinking, "We shall live forever in this house." And Kṛṣṇa says that "I will come as death and take away all your possession." That they cannot understand. They will think that "No, my possession is all. I will die. I will go to hell. Still, it is my possession." This is. He will go to hell; still, his possession. (laughs) This is intelligence. Gurukṛpa: They are so dependent that if there is no electricity, where will they get water on the twentieth floor? Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from that... There are so many inconveniences. There is no doubt about it. But he is thinking, "Now I have done this skyscraper building, it is my possession, and even though I go to hell, it will remain my possession." He does not believe next life, but he is thinking, "My generation." But if there is no next life, what is the question of generation? Who is coming to become your generation if there is no next life? Hm? "My son, my grandson will..." But who is coming to be your... Because there is no next life, everything is finished with this body, then who is coming to be your son and who is coming to be your grandson? The common sense. But they are so dull, they cannot understand. Gurukṛpa: You once told us the story of the rich man, and he died and became a... Prabhupāda: No, no, that is also believing next life. But if they do not believe next life, then who is coming to be your son? Why you are so anxious for your son and grandson? *Bali*-mardana: It is simply an accident. Prabhupāda: So for accident you are spending so much money and energy? All contradictory. There is no even common sense. Still, they will not take the actual fact from the authoritative śāstra. [break] ...nābhijānāti. [break] Guest (1) (Gentleman): What kind of a sect are you? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious. Guest (1): Christian what? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious, just tell him. *Bali*-mardana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Guest (1): Oh. Prabhupāda: God conscious. Guest (1): Oh. What country are you from? Prabhupāda: India. Guest (1): India. Well, I'll tell you. It's sort of interesting. I hope you don't feel any affront. And what are you doing now, sort of a meditation? Prabhupāda: We are chanting. Chanting the holy name of God. Guest (1): Uh huh. Devotee: Our whole purpose is to serve God and to revive our love for God. *Guest (1): Sure. That's right. I understand that, and, you know, I'm very broad*-minded. I always have said... You know, one time in our Methodist church we had a professor that was giving all religions of the world. And this is rather putting it simply and fast, but it was interesting because of all the different religions, even though they all didn't believe in the divine being, Christ being the son of God, in some cases-there's Buddha and so forth-but they all were preaching about going to the same place, so to speak. And it's peculiar. They all had more or less the Ten Commandments. In other words they all believed in doing the same thing. So that was interesting... Prabhupāda: But I don't think Christians believe. Guest (1): So I know you people are good, just as good as I am. Bless you all, and I wish I and all of us were better. Prabhupāda: Do you think Christians believe in the Ten Commandments? Guest (1): We think we do, I guess, but we don't practice it, you know. Prabhupāda: Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill." So why they are killing? Guest (1): Yes, you're right. But, you know, up the road someplace maybe there's an answer. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Prabhupāda: Maybe up the road there's an answer someplace, but we're too slow in arriving there. Prabhupāda: There is no answer. The Lord says, "Thou shalt not kill." Why you are killing? Who is a Christian? If you don't obey the order of Christ, how you become a Christian? You cannot say that you are Christian if you disobey the order of Christ. Guest (1): Yes, I know. You're right. You can't kill... Prabhupāda: If you don't carry out the order of the government, then you are not a good citizen. Guest (1): Now, you look like you're either English or... Prabhupāda: We are neither English nor American. We are servant of God. Guest (1): I know. You're brotherhood of man. But just my own curiosity... Of course, you have converts of all... Prabhupāda: No convert. Actually we are. Just like you have got this different dress from me. That does not mean you are convert to the dress. You are a gentleman; I am a gentleman. That's all. Guest (1): I don't know whether I'm a gentleman or not. I'm just a man, and pretty lowly as far as my own opinion's concerned. Prabhupāda: So different dress does not mean converts. We are in different dress, American body or Indian body or this body, black body or... This is body. But we are within the body. Guest (1): What is the symbol of the staff here? There's a symbol of that, is there? Prabhupāda: That is a big thing to be understood. (laughter) Guest (1): Can't be answered in one sentence, huh? Prabhupāda: That is the symbol... That requires good explanation. If you come to our temple, then we shall inform you. Devotees: Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Guest (1): (laughs) Good talking to you folks. You know... Prabhupāda: Wherefrom you are coming? *Guest (1): Indianapolis, Indiana. You ever hear of that? Yes. Five*-hundred-mile race. Prabhupāda: It is in America? *Gurukṛpa: It's the all*-American city. Guest (1): You know where the Great Lakes are in the United States? Just right down south from there, about a hundred, 150 miles south of Indianapolis. Prabhupāda: We have no temple there? Śrutakīrti: No. Gurukṛpa: We've been there many times for saṅkīrtana. Guest (1): Well, you folks are good people. God bless you. And, you know, sometimes it takes a little nerve to come up and stop you. But I was just curious. An awful lot of people might be, and they do a little staring, but they never get enough guts up to stop and talk to you. And I thought I'd do that. It's nice talking to you. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Gurukṛpa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Can you say that? Guest (1): Can I say what? Gurukṛpa: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Guest (1): Hariyay Kṛṣṇa? Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Very good. (man departs) Devotee: Should we tell all Christians like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? That they're killing? Prabhupāda: (laughs) They are killing actually. They are maintaining slaughterhouse. What kind of Christian they are, I do not know. Gurukṛpa: He admitted it, that they say it, but they really don't follow it. *Prabhupāda: If you don't follow the Christian principles, then how you are a Christian? Just to make a show*-bottle. They don't believe in next life, don't believe in the Ten Commandments. Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Christ. This is the followers. The instruction is "Thou shall not kill," but they said, "First of all let us kill you. Then we shall follow your instruction." This is the... Gurukṛpa: "That's all right, though. We have been saved. We have been saved by Christ. We have accepted the baptism, so we are saved." Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the use of their church and preaching? Devotee: Well, we want to tell the others so they can also be saved. Prabhupāda: No, the Christian churches, all the priests, they eat meat. They're supporting everything, homosex, everything, man to man marriage. *Bali*-mardana: Now they are making women the priests. Prabhupāda: Women priest. Women priest, there was none before? *Bali*-mardana: No. Gurukṛpa: Still not very much. *Bali*-mardana: The Protestants. Gurukṛpa: That is a nice pandal. Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall go farther or return? [break] Gurukṛpa: He was from a small city. He knew us, and he'd seen us before. People, they can't help but notice us. [break] Devotee (2): ...follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness very strictly and very seriously like, say, for the rest of our lives, is there a chance that we'll be able to see Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in this life? *Prabhupāda: Certainly. You read Bhagavad*-gītā? Devotee (2): Yes. *Prabhupāda: So there is stated, "If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you go back to home." Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. That is stated. If you simply understand how Kṛṣṇa takes birth, how He goes away, why does He come, what is His mission, these things, if you can understand, then you are a fit candidate to go back to home. So that is explained everything in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You try to understand. Then you are guaranteed. Where is the difficulty? And if you think, "Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary man like us," then finished. Then do not understand Kṛṣṇa. If you simply accept this word faithfully, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], "Everything is Kṛṣṇa," then your knowledge is perfect. Devotee (3): Even if we don't understand Kṛṣṇa completely... Even if we don't understand Kṛṣṇa completely, if we just... Prabhupāda: This is complete understanding, that "Everything is Kṛṣṇa." That's all. That is a fact. Everything is the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Just like in this material world everyone knows everything is the sunshine. Due to the sunshine, everything is coming. That's a fact. Science... Guest (2) (Woman): I've seen your pictures many times in the books. Prabhupāda: Where? Guest (2): I've seen your pictures many times in the books. *Bali*-mardana: In your books. Prabhupāda: Oh, you have got my books? Guest (2): That's amazing. For the first time I can see you really. Gurukṛpa: You have got our books? Guest (2): Yes, I have got some at home, and I read some of them too. Guest (1): What do you say about the weather or the sun or what... You just were talking before she interrupted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Weather is changing. Weather is changing. Śītoṣṇa, it is called śītoṣṇa. Sometimes it is cold; sometimes it is hot. Guest (2): Can I ask you where you come from? Prabhupāda: I have come from India. Guest (2): Oh, you came from India? Yeah? Oh. Which part? Ceylon? Prabhupāda: No. I come from Bengal. Guest (2): Oh, Bengal, uh huh. Prabhupāda: You have been in India? Guest (2): No. I often wanted to go, but I really never had a chance. Prabhupāda: You can come. We have got very good place. You can stay there. We have got very good, nice building in Bombay in... Guest (2): Could be very interesting, you know? I wouldn't mind going. But right now I can't... Prabhupāda: Try to understand the philosophy. Your life will be successful. Yes. Guest (2): Um hm. I've heard a lot about it. I've read in the books too. Some of those books I have. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest (1): I'm just fascinated. My business is catamaran. I own one catamaran business, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Boats. Prabhupāda: Boats. Guest (1): Yeah. Take tourists. That's my business. Guest (2): You know, we are pretty well the first people to see you really, you know. We've all seen you in the books. Prabhupāda: Thank you. Guest (2): Bye bye. Śrutakīrti: You have more admirers here than in Juhu Beach. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, they are also admirer, provided... Hare Kṛṣṇa. Gurukṛpa: Kenichiwa. Prabhupāda: This is Japanese? Gurukṛpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: Keep some books in the all tourist shop. It will be sold. [break] She has got my books. Might have purchased. Gurukṛpa: On the street. We are always here, every day. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...as young man, say, twenty*-two, twenty-three. In Jagannātha Purī I used to take bath in the sea. At that time I had energy to take bath. Gurukṛpa: Jagannātha Purī is nice sea. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Gurukṛpa: Called mahā*-tīrtha. Prabhupāda: After that, I don't remember I ever took bath in the sea. Gurukṛpa: The water is very warm here. *Bali*-mardana: You were taking bath in Yamunā. Prabhupāda: Yes, that I was regularly, when I was in Vṛndāvana. In childhood I was going with my father to take bathing in the Ganges, Calcutta. That I was going regularly. Devotee (4): It requires a lot of strength to bathe in the sea. You're being tossed very much. *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...so many seeds are there? And as many seeds, as many trees are there. And each fruit, thousands of fruits there, and millions of seeds are there, and millions of trees are there. Where is that scientist, put into that small packet millions of trees like that? Millions of big trees are within this packet. Where is that scientist? Put in a packet, you take, and millions of trees you grow? And without any expenditure, they are present there. If you like, you can take. What the scientists will answer? "Yes, in future we shall do." In future you will do. That's all right. But why don't you give credit who has done already? You are taking credit by post*-dated check, and one is actually paying cash, he has no credit. You are giving a false check, post-dated, and you want to take credit. And one who is paying cash immediately, he has no credit. Just see how foolish they are. Devotee (4): They cannot even appreciate something like that. *Prabhupāda: No, no. They say, "Don't talk of God." That is their philosophy. (Gets into car) Post*-dated check, they want all credit, and one who is paying cash, he has no credit. Gurukṛpa: "Well, we can't see Him, so we can't believe it. We can't see who has done it." Prabhupāda: No, you cannot see that the tree, wherefrom this tree has come. From the seed: you cannot see it? You are so blind? Why don't you see? Wherefrom this big tree has come? And such millions of big trees are on the floor. You cannot see it? Then you are blind. Paramahaṁsa: It comes from that little seed. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows that. Paramahaṁsa: But the seed came from another tree. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But who has made this arrangement, packed up, millions of trees? Paramahaṁsa: That's just part of nature. Prabhupāda: Then nature is your father. Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: You are less than the nature, that you have to accept. Nature has already done. So either you say "nature" or "God," doesn't matter. But you are not bigger. You cannot take the credit. Paramahaṁsa: No, we are sons of nature, so nature is greater than us. Prabhupāda: "Sons of nature," that's all right. But why do you take credit, why do you want to take credit more than nature? Paramahaṁsa: But we'd just like to understand how to use nature, how to work with nature. Gurukṛpa: No, it says, if you follow the Bible, it says that there was a... God created... Prabhupāda: They don't follow anything. They don't follow their own... (laughs) Whims, that's all. If you follow Bible, what do the Bible says? Bible says about God. They don't believe in God. Gurukṛpa: They're rubbish people. Prabhupāda: Rubbish. That is right conclusion. All rascals and rubbish. That is the right conclusion. Paramahaṁsa: Just like that man this morning said, "Well, we believe in the Ten Commandments, but we don't follow them. We believe in God, but we don't follow." Prabhupāda: What kind of belief if you don't follow? Gurukṛpa: "Well, we believe, but we find it too difficult." Prabhupāda: Then go to hell. Gurukṛpa: "Well, we've accepted Jesus, and he's going to save us. That's why we've accepted him. If you accept him in your heart, then he'll save you even though you might be weak at the time of temptation." Prabhupāda: Then who is going to hell? If everyone is saved like that, then who is going to hell? Paramahaṁsa: "Well, not everyone will accept Jesus in their heart. So those people have to go to hell." Prabhupāda: That's nice. Has Jesus Christ said like that, that "Those who believe in me, they will be saved"? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, he says like that. Prabhupāda: So believing means "I don't accept your commandments." Is that belief? Has Jesus Christ that "You don't believe in my commandments, but you believe in me." Śrutakīrti: Christ never spoke the commandments. That was Moses. Prabhupāda: Then don't take Bible. Throw it away. Then don't bring Bible as authority. Gurukṛpa: They have no argument on any... Prabhupāda: [break] ...fallen from their original culture. Still, we have seen, as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa conscious festival, thousands and thousands of men... That we have experienced. Gurukṛpa: But in India it seems that no matter what you tell them, they don't change their ways. They have their... Prabhupāda: No, they believe in Kṛṣṇa, "He is God." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That they believe in. Śrutakīrti: But that's what the Christians say. "We believe in Christ," but they don't follow. *Prabhupāda: They follow Him. In India they still. Majority follow. The non*-followers are minority. (end) Morning Walk -- May 29, 1975, Honolulu Śrutakīrti: The following morning walk conversation takes place at Waikiki Beach, Hawaii, on May 29th, 1975. [break] Prabhupāda: When it is said that all these are created by God, they become very angry, eh? Is it not? Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes. Prabhupāda: Sometimes, or always? Śrutakīrti: You mean some of the scientists. Prabhupāda: All of them, invariably. Paramahaṁsa: Some of them accept... Prabhupāda: Invariably. The scientists, as soon as somebody says, "This is all created by God," they become very angry, eh? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... What is the reason they become angry? Somebody has created. They say "Nature." Take nature, somebody, but you have not created. Śrutakīrti: They want a more complex answer. Prabhupāda: What is that complex answer? Somebody has created, that's all. Śrutakīrti: They want to know how he created it. Prabhupāda: How he created, that is another thing. But you have not created. Somebody else has created. First of all accept this. Then we shall go into the detail. Gurukṛpa: Actually they are thinking that they are the supreme brain themselves. Prabhupāda: Then that's all right. How you are supreme? You cannot create like that. How you are supreme? Simply by claiming "I am supreme"? Gurukṛpa: Well, if they discover a theory, then they think that that makes them supreme. Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Theory you may discover, but you have not created. That's a fact. That's a fact. *Bali*-mardana: They refuse to accept God because they can neither prove nor disprove. Prabhupāda: But no, no. God you prove or disprove, but first you have to accept that you have not created. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Prabhupāda: How is that you are thinking that you have created or somebody... You have not created this. Somebody else. Now who is that somebody else, that we shall find out. But you have not created. You accept it. *Bali*-mardana: They say it was an accident. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is not right answer. *Bali*-mardana: Because they want to lord it over the accident. Prabhupāda: Then all these houses have come in an accident? Everything is created by man. How you can say accident? This is their foolishness. Nothing happens accidentally. If there is accident, then how we are walking this? There is a huge water. By accident, immediately it can drown us. If accident is so prominent, then one should be conscious that by accident the whole Hawaii Island can be... It can be done. Why it is not being happened if it is accident? Then why you are building so many buildings? You should know, by accident the whole water can... If accident is there, why you are confident that "No, it will not do." Then where is accident? *Bali*-mardana: They are thinking that they can control that accident. Prabhupāda: You are not controlling. There are so many happenings, that big waves come, and overflood, and there is earthquake, and everything is finished. So you are not controlling accident, even if we accept accident. Accident is not under your control. That Madhudviṣa was telling: in Darwin there was so big, powerful wind, the motor buses were flying. *Bali*-mardana: In America, tornadoes, they just destroyed one very big city. Gurukṛpa: But the thing would be too simple. If they accepted there was God, they would be out of a job, and then there would be nothing more to speculate about. *Bali*-mardana: They would lose their jobs. Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is another poor fellow. If by bluffing like this, they can continue their office, that is another thing. In our childhood we were living in a quarter: there many thieves, pickpockets. So we... After all, they were neighborhood men, so they knew us. Although we had no connection, but we knew that "These are pickpockets, gundas." And they also knew us. So I remember, now, children, one pickpocket was taking, and as soon as he saw me... (laughter) He was afraid that "This boy may tell." We have seen it. He was doing... Similarly, these rascals are pickpockets, and they are asking us, "Don't expose us. Let us do." Gurukṛpa: You told us the story that in New York you walked in one yoga āśrama, and the man who was teaching yoga, and he told you in Hindi, "Don't reveal it. This is my... I am feeding my family by this method." Prabhupāda: That is tanker? Oil tanker, yes. He is carrying so much oil. Gurukṛpa: They have this type of gas now that they freeze it, and it shrinks five hundred times. And they put it in these big tanks, and they bring it across the ocean, and then when they get it to port, they again heat it up into the big tanks and it expands. So they freeze it and it becomes smaller and they can export more. Prabhupāda: Oh, it becomes solid? Devotee: Just like liquid oxygen, they cool it and yes, it comes to the liquid state. Prabhupāda: There are so many living entities living within this sand, and on unfortunate moon there is no living entities. And we have to believe it. Hm? What is that? Gurukṛpa: I was telling them we should come pick these flowers every day, this jasmine. Nobody is picking. Prabhupāda: Oh. No, no, they will fine. Gurukṛpa: No, no, they don't know. Prabhupāda: What is the use, coming here, spending so much motor oil to steal this? Gurukṛpa: No, we are doing that anyway. We are doing that anyway. To pick these flowers daily, they are going so many places and being chased away. They would rather see them rot than to give them to us. They don't let us pick. [break] *Prabhupāda: All nonsense. They are professing I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, but they are enemies, one another. So where is their religion? Just see, common sense. Even the animals, amongst themselves, they do not say "Keep out." Sit down together. They sit down actually. The birds, beasts of the same position, they keep together. Birds of the same feather flock... But human being, having, professing so many religions-enemies. This is their civilization. They discover better religion, but enemies to the animal, to the man, everyone. Therefore Bhāgavata religion is meant for persons who are not enemies. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. That is religion. We have come to here from India not as enemy but as friend, to give you Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is dharma. Although politically they are enemies-India is thinking "America is my enemy," or America is thinking "India is my enemy"*-we do not think like that. We go everywhere, take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, be happy. This is our business. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām. "Private. Keep out." *Bali*-mardana: Their condition is worse than the animals. *Prabhupāda: They have been described as dvīpada*-paśuḥ, animals but with special difference: the animals, ordinary animals, they have got four legs, and they have got two legs. Dvīpada paśuḥ. Everything is there. And the Vedic civilization is no "Keep out," but even the enemy comes at your home, you receive him as very good friend. Gṛhaṁ satram api prāptam. "At your home, even your enemy comes, you should receive him in such a way," viśvastam akūto bhayam, "he will forget that you are enemy. He will be so confident, that 'I have come to a friend's house.' " This is Vedic civilization. And the Western civilization: "Beware of dog. Keep out." And actually they fire if you enter. And there is law that if he fires, you cannot stop. Trespassing. Private individually, private nationally, private communally-simply private. And when death will come, "No, sir. Keep out." "No keep out. Why you are here? I will keep it out. I will now keep it out." Then what you will do? When Kṛṣṇa will come and say, "I will keep it out now," what you will do? You have to go, go out. Finished, all "Keep out," "Private," everything finished. Gurukṛpa: But I am surrounded by my family members who will protect me. Prabhupāda: But you keep out. You rascal keep out. That is the last answer. And they will be also kept out, but let them live for some time. Nobody will live here. What he will do about that? So long his life is there, he says, "Keep out," and when death will come, he will make him keep out. Then what he will do? Gurukṛpa: But that is in the future. Now I will enjoy. *Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness, that... They have no future. So it is useless, "Keep out." Imagination, concoction, foolishness*-this is the basic principle of material civilization. Mūḍhā, that's all. "I am asking to keep out; *I do not know how long I shall live here." That he does not think. "I am asking others, keep out." If somebody asks him, "You are asking others to keep out, but when you will be asked to keep out, who will protect you? Is there any protection? Will your sons and grandsons and wife will protect you?"... That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, pramatto tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati, dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu ātmaśainyeṣu [SB 2.1.4]. He is thinking that "These, my wife, children, and relatives and friends, will protect me not to be thrown out." But that is not possible. He will be thrown out. He will have to be kept out. And that is not by accident. Everyone knows, "Yes." That is not arranged. It is already arranged. Where is the question of accident? It will take place. But paśyann api na paśyati, he is so rascal blind, although he knows, still he forgets. Forgets not. He tries to forget. Paśyann api na paśyati. Śrama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Do all these things, but remember Kṛṣṇa. Be attached to Kṛṣṇa. That is your business. And if you do not awaken that consciousness, then whatever you have done, śrama eva hi kevalam: simply waste of time and labor. That he doesn't know. Śrama eva hi kevalam. He has got to work hard for constructing building like this and keep others out and live peacefully. But when he will be kicked out, then all this labor is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam. Gurukṛpa: But his family will have it for generations. Prabhupāda: Well, family men... When you are diseased, you do not say, "My family is there. Don't call for a physician. I am happy." That you do not say. You call for a physician. Your family cannot help you. And what to speak of death? That is another foolishness. When you fly in the sky with your friends and family and when there is danger, nobody can save you. You will drop down. Everyone is flying. Even airplane, if there is some accident in the airplane, what the other airplane can do? If the ship is drowning, what other ship can do? You are drowning; *you must drown. There is no question of "my friends and relatives." That is described in the Bhāgavatam. Dehāpatya*-kalatrādiṣu ātma-śainyeṣu. He is thinking, "They are my soldiers. They will give me protection." Ātma-śainya. Śainya means soldier. Asatsv api. It is false, but he is thinking like that. That is foolishness. When you have to fly, you have to fly on the strength of your wings, own wings, not your son's wings or daughter's wings or... That will not help you. Svakarma-phala, phala-bhuk. You have to enjoy or suffer according to your own activities. Gurukṛpa: But, you see, you want us to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but we're a joint family, and I have to ask the permission of my elder brother, and if he says no, then I can't do it. Prabhupāda: That is your foolishness. Why you should take permission of your father or mother? Your business is your business. Why you are thinking like that, "I have to take permission of mother, my wife, my children"? And who will give you permission? Nobody will give you. You have to take your own permission. That is the way. You have to think that "Now, what is the use of taking their permission? When I am in danger, will they save me?" Hariṁ vinā na mṛtiṁ taranti. "When I will die, they can save me? Then why shall I take their permission?" That is intelligence. Nature does not depend on your wife's or father's and relatives' permission. She does not care. When she will ask you, "Die now," you have to die. No question of permission. "Now your time is up, finished. Get out." No permission. You have to do it. Nature can await permission of Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's permission. Mama māyā. When the police comes to arrest you, it doesn't... the police doesn't care for anyone's permission. Only the government permission. That's all. Unless the government orders, they will arrest you. The police will arrest and take you by force. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramam: "The rascal does not know, nobody's permission will be accepted except My permission." This mūḍhā does not know. Nābhijānāti: "He does not know it." Therefore he is mūḍhā. It is now looking so peaceful nice, but with the permission of the Lord immediately there will be a heavy cloud and storm and waves and finished everything, within a second. That is permission. (laughs) Who cares for your permission? *Bali*-mardana: Death does not discriminate between the high and the low. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ [Bg. 9.10]. They are observing this nature, very powerful, but the powerful nature is working under the order of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa. It is being informed, but they are so poor brain, they cannot understand it. Mūḍhā. Our position is just like these foams. By one little wave, millions of foams are coming out and again finished. It is like that, our position. So our position is like foam; we are taking estimate of the ocean. This is our position. Our position is like one of the drop of the foam, and we are calculating the strength of the ocean. And when you cannot calculate, it is accident. That's all. Finished business. It is accident. Everything is being done accident. We will never admit that we cannot calculate. Accident, that's all. Dismiss. *Bali*-mardana: When they say accident, it simply means they do not know. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the meaning. But they will give a different way. They will never say, "No, we cannot calculate. We do not know. It is beyond our..." They say, "Oh, it is accident." And boys are going to understand science. They understand this, that everything is accident. So why do you go there to understand the accident, spending so much money? *Bali*-mardana: [break] ...ask the scientists about the soul, they say, "We are not fit to say anything about the soul. We do not want to comment about the soul. So we will just not discuss it." Prabhupāda: What they will discuss? *Bali*-mardana: They like to discuss their own speculation, matter, material things. Prabhupāda: And what is the use? *Bali*-mardana: They say that "We should discuss only the things that we can see and the things that we can know with our science. Anything we do not know is not fit for us to discuss." Prabhupāda: Why? You cannot see your death? So why you are making medical science to stop death? You do not see death, but it is sure that you will die. So why don't you wish to die? (dog barking in background) There, the scientists' barking. (laughter) So many cars, all our? No. Śrutakīrti: No. Prabhupāda: So how this chunk came here? Hmm? The scientists say... Gurukṛpa: There is only one answer. Prabhupāda: What is that? Gurukṛpa: Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: No, that is your answer. What the scientists will say? Gurukṛpa: Well, it came from a volcano in the earth. Prabhupāda: It is stone. (so?) It is not separate piece. It is attached to a big... Gurukṛpa: Big lava came, and now it's here. Actually, it's all false. It doesn't exist. It's just like a dream. We're just dreaming these things. But when you wake up and you're out of the dream, then you actually come to the Brahman. It's just false. Prabhupāda: But when this chunk is thrown over your head, that is not false. If it is thrown over your head, then you protest, "No, no, don't do it. Don't do it." Paramahaṁsa: We have not become so much realized that we have understood it's false completely yet. Only theoretically. Prabhupāda: No, how it is false? When somebody takes one big chunk and wants to throw it upon you, why do you cry. "No, no, no don't do it! Don't do it!" At that time you do not say, "No, the chunk is false. I don't mind." Gurukṛpa: Would you like to walk on the other beach, or...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpa: Actually, this world was created by God's līlā, but actually, it is all just illusion. Prabhupāda: Not līlā. There is meaning. You can say it is līlā. Where now? That's not... It is very rough. Gurukṛpa: There's a beach after this. *Bali-mardana: The whole theory of the scientists about the evolution of man*-it rests on about four bones. The whole theory is based on a few bones they have found, about four different bones from the... One tooth and a jawbone and one more bone that they say are so many millions of years old. And this is the whole basis for their theories. Prabhupāda: So there are so many bones. Why don't you create living entity from the bones? Śrutakīrti: This side is very dirty. [break] *Prabhupāda: Light is light so long the sun is not there. Similarly, all these scientists are scientists so long God is not there. And as soon as God is there... Just like our men. They do not care for all this shining, shining light of scientists. The glowworm, they are light so long it is darkness. When it is sunshine, there is no use of these glowworms. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. This is the Vedic instruction. If you understand God, then you understand everything. Then you will not be allured by the so*-called rascal scientist. Accident and this, that, bone. We are not interested. This side is better than the other side. When I was coming to America by ship, at night I was seeing, about hundred miles away there is one ship, a little light. There is a difference, so many miles. Vast ocean. Somebody live there always? No. Somebody is there. Gurukṛpa: Yes, someone stays there. Śrutakīrti: There is a house there, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Now they are making them automated because it costs too much money to have someone stay. Prabhupāda: Automatic and he is unemployed. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Śrutakīrti: Then they'll give him welfare check instead. Gurukṛpa: It's cheaper. (Prabhupāda chuckles) People, even if they're offered a job, they won't take it because they would like to get the free check. Prabhupāda: Śūdra. Śūdra. So long he has got money to eat, he will sleep on the beach. He will not work. That is śūdra. And if he has got enough money, then he will spend it for wine and women. That's all. So long he has got money, he will not work. And as soon as he has got money, he will spend it for wine and woman. This is called śūdra. *Bali*-mardana: There are over eleven million people in the United States just living on welfare. [break] Gurukṛpa: ...big calamity such as a big earthquake, like that, then... Prabhupāda: We shall return now? Śrutakīrti: Yes. Gurukṛpa: Then they request everyone to pray to God for help. Outside of that, they will not have any interest. Prabhupāda: But the Communists will not do. Even they are in danger, at least outwardly they will not do. This is passenger ship, eh? Śrutakīrti: Yeah, it appears ... Gurukṛpa: About fifty years ago they made a ship called the Titanic. Prabhupāda: Yes. Gurukṛpa: And they were very proud, but it smashed into an iceberg. Prabhupāda: We were children at that time. Not children, we were young men. The first voyage, it was finished. And all big men were there. It was assured that "It will never drown." *Bali*-mardana: They said, "This is the ship that can never sink." Prabhupāda: Big chunk, ice block... (end) Morning Walk -- May 31, 1975, Honolulu Śrutakīrti: This morning Śrīla Prabhupāda's morning walk takes place on Waikiki Beach, Hawaii, on May 3lst, 1975. [break] Prabhupāda: ...he thinks, "I am on the surf," then next life he will be fish. *Bali*-mardana: All the surfers will be fish? If they think that within the water, they will be fish. [break] Prabhupāda: ...evolution. *Bali*-mardana: Then they have to come all the way back to the human form of life. Prabhupāda: [break] ...childhood we used to play one chessboard, that one serpent is there. If the, what is called, the guti(?) ? Śrutakīrti: Dice. Prabhupāda: Dice, yes. If the dice falls on the face of the serpent, immediately it comes down. We have to come to the tail. Śrutakīrti: Back to the start. Prabhupāda: Yes. It is like that. Goloka nadha(?). One is trying to go to back to home, back to Godhead. A little discrepancy... Mahārāja Bhārata? Yes, he became deer. Therefore we should be very careful. That is the instruction. Even Mahārāja Bhārata, he fell down. So therefore how much careful we should be. These are the instructions to become careful. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31], always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will save you. That Kṛṣṇa chanting and hearing, that will keep us safe. Example is given: just like a polluted woman is doing all household work, but she is always thinking when she will meet with her paramour at night. This example is... Similarly, we may be engaged in different material activities, but if we keep our faith in Kṛṣṇa, then it will save us. It is possible. Just like the example: the woman is engaged in household affairs very diligently, but she is always thinking when she will meet her paramour. *Bali*-mardana: If we keep that example in mind, then it becomes easier. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Another example is given. In South India there are a class of dancer. They keep a waterpot on the head, and they will dance, but it will not fall down. Careful. [break] ...kṛṣṇa*-padaravindayor kṣīṇa-tavābhrāṇi ca sākaṁ pramodaḥ. If we remember always Kṛṣṇa, then all our inauspicity is driven away, and prosperity increases. Sākaṁ pramodaḥ. [break] If you know a little Sanskrit, they will see the composition of Bhāgavatam so fine. It is not possible to be composed now. Gurukṛpa: Sweet. Prabhupāda: Five thousand years ago it was composed by Vyāsadeva. [break] ...only for the Juhu Beach so many hotels are being maintained. Even this Holiday Inn, they have also... Gurukṛpa: Juhu Beach is a big beach. Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. [break] ...I told you, in my childhood I was consulting the time table, "What is the fare of Jagannātha Purī and Vṛndāvana?" (chuckles) Gurukṛpa: You said it was two rupees. Prabhupāda: No, not two rupees. Jagannātha Purī at that time was four rupees, four annas or one anna. And Vṛndāvana was six rupees. Gurukṛpa: Six. Prabhupāda: Six rupees from Calcutta. So I was dreaming "When I get this four rupees or six rupees, I shall go." [break] Gurukṛpa: That is not material. *Bali*-mardana: You were desiring to worship... You were worshiping Jagannātha, weren't you? Prabhupāda: Yes. Rathayātrā. *Bali*-mardana: You wanted to go and visit Purī? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Gurukṛpa: All the people come out on their porch and they watch us. [break] Prabhupāda: ...see (sea?), you can... Water is so clear, ten feet down you can see clear. Gurukṛpa: Here. Prabhupāda: Any sea anywhere. When I was traveling by ship, I used to see ten feet down crystal clear. It is very clear water. Gurukṛpa: But you cannot drink it. *Prabhupāda: That is God's supremacy. "If I don't give you water to drink, you cannot drink." And still, they are independent. Just see the fun. Even water, three*-fourths of water, you cannot use a drop of water for drinking unless God gives you. He creates the cloud and give you. That is not your arrangement. You cannot do. Still they are independent. Jale kali-vāsa, nāme tila phyāsa. Sometimes sailors,(?) for being thirsty, they died in water. How they declare independence from Him? "There is no God. There is no authority. We are independent. We can do whatever we like." Childish. *Gurukṛpa: I think it's because they are meat*-eaters, all their intelligence is completely gone. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam. Vina pasughnat: [SB 10.1.4] Unless one is meat-eater, nobody can be disinterested in God's affairs. Only the meat-eaters, vinā paśughnāt, killers of animal. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt [SB 10.1.4]. This glorification of God is especially done by persons who are completely free from material attachment. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagiyamanad bhavauśādhi [SB 10.1.4]. And it is the medicine of getting free from this material bondage. Bhavauśādhi. And it is also very pleasing. Otherwise why they come to hear the Hare Kṛṣṇa? It's such a nice thing. Who does not like it unless he is a killer of animals? So even the killer of animals, they also hear. It is so nice. Only the gross killers, most abominable, they do not hear it. Gurukṛpa: Last night we saw groups of people on and off going by holding their ears. They were putting their fingers in their ears. *Prabhupāda: Nivṛtta*-tarṣair upagiyamanad bhavauśādhi chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt [SB 10.1.4]. [break] Devotee: Hawaiians, they are not very much inclined to read. So does that mean we should distribute lots of prasādam here profusely? Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: The Hawaiian people, they don't read very much, but they like to eat. Prabhupāda: Give them, yes. (end) Morning Walk -- June 2, 1975, Honolulu Gurukṛpa: . What's this tree? Devotee (1): It's a type of pandanus. They weave with that, Prabhupāda. They make rugs. [break] ...chiku tree, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Chikel? Devotee (1): Yeah, this one here. Śrutakīrti: Chiku. Prabhupāda: What is that chiku? Paramahaṁsa: Like in India. Śrutakīrti: The brown fruit, chiku. Prabhupāda: Oh, chiku. Indian man: Na, na, this is not chiku. Devotee (1): This one right here. This big one. Indian man: Oh, the big one. Yeah, that is. Prabhupāda: It is well known, chiku. In Gujarat there is ample chiku. This stone is artificially brought here, I think. Devotee (1): It looks natural. It looks like it was here all the time. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Devotee (1): [break] ...small trees in here or grass, we can walk in there. Prabhupāda: Yes, which way? Devotee (1): Oh, this way. We can walk this way. [break] Śrutakīrti: It's an acknowledgement of the first director of this botanical garden. [break] Devotee (1): ...poison, Prabhupāda. This one is poison. It's called aki (a key?) apple. I think, I don't know, but I'm not sure. Prabhupāda: Without tasting, you say poison? First of all taste. (laughter) If you die, then you say it is poison. Devotee (1): This is a candlenut tree, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They take these nuts and in old Hawaii they string it through a coconut frond, and then they light it, and it used to burn for a few minutes. It's full of oil. Candlenut. Prabhupāda: What it is written there? Paramahaṁsa: "Sir Betare (?) tree." Devotee (1): They told me most of the fruits here are poisonous except for one mango. Indian man: That yellow kind of campaka? Prabhupāda: No, it is not campaka. It is called kaiku(?). [break] ...Melbourne? Śrutakīrti: No. Gurukṛpa: What's that? Paramahaṁsa: They have a park, a botanical garden in Melbourne where we went. Prabhupāda: Very big and very beautiful. Śrutakīrti: There there were no fruit trees. Prabhupāda: Huh? Śrutakīrti: In Melbourne there were no fruit trees. Here there are many... Prabhupāda: But here the poison fruit. (laughter) Śrutakīrti: He says poison. Prabhupāda: It is better not to have fruit tree than to have a poison fruit tree. What is for? Śrutakīrti: To protect it from the sun, too much sun. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is a cinnamon tree over here, a cinnamon. *Prabhupāda: Oh. Cinnamon tree, you can use the leaves for cooking. Teja*-patra. Indian man: Bay leaves. Aren't they called bay leaves? A dry one? Devotee (1): This is the same? Prabhupāda: No. Śrutakīrti: Where is the cinnamon stick? Devotee (1): It says it's from India and Ceylon. Prabhupāda: Maybe. Devotee (2): There's little berries on it. [break] Śrutakīrti: Various sweet berry. Paramahaṁsa: Blueberry. Devotee (1): Java berry. Gurukṛpa: Where's the path? Devotee (1): In either direction, you know, they're all different plants. [break] Prabhupāda: ...say "This contains this chemical, that chemical, this chemical," but he will never think who has put this chemical. That is his dullness. They will analyze and say, "It contains this chemical, that chemical, that..." And who has put this chemical? That they cannot say. Śrutakīrti: Very large trees. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Devotee (1): This big one? Prabhupāda: Maybe thousand years old. Devotee (2): It's from Africa. Prabhupāda: African trees are like tall like this. Devotee (1): One hundred years, it's more than hundred years. Indian man: This is that same one. They give red, different flowers. Prabhupāda: This is also African? Indian man: No, they have in India this tree also. That gives red flowers? Prabhupāda: And it was in a small seed. Prepare such seed, you chemist. How strong! Indian man: No, here, from that tree. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (1): It says, they put it in mattresses and pillows a long time ago. They used that for their bedding. It's called (?) Indian man: We have also in India. Prabhupāda: We make thread out of it. It is called cotton wool. We can sit down here? [break] ...Zamindar, very rich man, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. [break] ...cars, but where their men? *Bali*-mardana: There is a Buddhist temple here, Chinese Buddhist temple, and I think the cars are for that. And some of the keepers. [break] Prabhupāda: ...be superintend when the garden opens. [break] ... saw the question, but he cannot answer. So he began to write words like this, whole book, and the examiners saw that it has no meaning. But he has coined so many words. They said, "Very intelligent." They passed him. (laughter) Now, "upperfluous." You don't find all these words in dictionary. "Upperfluous rain of agua was dogbendikulali gondolized by lacticism of wine." It appears very gramatically nice composed, but it has no meaning. So he coined such words, a full book. Because he could not answer. So the time was there. He began to coin words. And he was passed, for his intelligence. Similarly, these people are putting words which you cannot understand, and they are getting their salaries, that's all. [break] ...invent something, that they will not die, there will be no disease, there will be no old age. That is something. What is this nonsense, simply speculating? [break] The cloud is standing there. It is not systematic. Then why the gravitation is not working? There are millions and millions tons of water. Why the gravitation is not working? The law of gravitation, why it is not working? Don't work with a rod.(?) What is the answer? They are not systematic changing. Why? Why the gravitation is not working, fall down? They are heavy, very heavy when they, what is called... Agitation. What is called? Śrutakīrti: Friction. Prabhupāda: Friction, yes. There is so much sound. So why it is not falling down? Indian man: The scientist says the pull of gravitation starts only so high. Prabhupāda: Why it is not working in all heights? Then what is their theory? If it is working under certain condition, who made this condition? [break] ...the nature, "Now you get down these islands. Get(?) the water," can they do that? *Bali*-mardana: No, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Then how they will come to know? [break] ...Kṛṣṇa wants, immediately this land, by earthquake, can go down, immediately, within a second. So in the Vedic literature nature is accepted. But the creation, maintenance, destruction, that is in the hand of God, not nature. [break] *Bali*-mardana: ...used to say that they can control the weather. They used to make big propaganda, "We are now going to control." Prabhupāda: Another foolish propaganda. *Bali*-mardana: Now they have given up. Prabhupāda: You see? They want to draw some salary, big salaries, by bluffing the government and the public. This is their business. They are failing. They have finished their business on this planet; now they are going another planet. These are nonsense. [break] They know that "We... So as far as possible, we have bluffed. Now our business in this planet is finished. So let us go to another planet." This is going on. Paramahaṁsa: Even if they wanted to stop this space project, they couldn't stop because they've already spent billions of dollars for making equipment and rocket ships and launching pads and rocket bases and so many employees. If they stop, then so much would be wasted, so many people would be unemployed. So they have to continue even if they know that it's a bluff. Prabhupāda: That is the way of falsehood. If once you speak something false, then to protect that falsehood you have to take to so many other falsehoods. This is the way of falsehood. Paramahaṁsa: One lie leads to another. Prabhupāda: [break] ...are going to Venus, Americans and Russians combined together? Ambarīṣa: This summer. Prabhupāda: Oh, in the summer. Venus is very cold? Why they have selected summer season? (laughter) [break] ...could not go to the moon, and Venus is far above moon. How they will go? *Bali*-mardana: They're not going to Venus, are they? Paramahaṁsa: Are they going to Mars? *Bali*-mardana: No, they're just going around the earth, right? Ambarīṣa: Yeah, they're linking up in space. Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, when they said they went to the moon and they showed films of them landing and walking on the moon, was this all a bluff? Prabhupāda: Yes, here they... All laboratory work, that's all. Devotee (3): They all made it up? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Prabhupāda, they are not going to go to Venus. The American and Russian, they are just going to meet outside the earth. They are not going to any planet. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is finished. *Bali*-mardana: It is too difficult. Ambarīṣa: They're going to meet in space and float around in space. Prabhupāda: That is birds are doing also. What is the credit? Paramahaṁsa: They are thinking that "What is the use of going to any other planet, because there is no life on the other planets." Prabhupāda: Why no life? Paramahaṁsa: Well, they have photographs and things. Prabhupāda: Photograph, what is this nonsense photograph? How long it can go up? Ambarīṣa: They're taken from hundreds of miles up in space, and then they say there is no life. Prabhupāda: What is hundreds of miles? It is, er, forty billion, what is that? Paramahaṁsa: Four billion. Prabhupāda: Four billion. So how they can calculate? Paramahaṁsa: If they took a photograph of the earth planet from up in space, they would probably also say there is no life. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): They say because the atmosphere is not like this planet, others cannot live there. Prabhupāda: Why not atmosphere? The moon planet, there is a planet. There is space. There is surface. There is dust. So why not atmosphere the same? It is made of the same ingredients, earth, water, fire. Why do you say that is not same atmosphere? Devotee (3): They are saying that it's too cold or too hot. Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is here also. There are many cold places. Do they think that in the cold places there is no life? All nonsense. And only nonsense will believe them. I never believed it. Why? Here we see under this sand there is life. The crabs, what is called? They live within, so many hundreds of thousands. We have seen on the sand. Indian man: And the polar bears for cold season for living in mounds of snows and all. Prabhupāda: There are birds, some birds. Paramahaṁsa: Penguins. Prabhupāda: Yes. Penguins birds. There is life. *Bali*-mardana: Seals, whales, polar bears... *Prabhupāda: There is life everywhere. Bhagavad*-gītā says, sarva-gaḥ. The life is there everywhere. And moon planet, according to our Vedic literature, that is one of the demigods' place. People live there daiva age, ten thousand years. Devotee (3): They will not believe in the demigods... Prabhupāda: So I will not believe them. That's all, finished. (laughter) Devotee (3): They cannot see them. Prabhupāda: What can you see, teeny eyes? What can you see? Can you see what is there on the other side of the sea? Then does it mean there is nothing? Your nonsense seeing. Why you are believing of seeing? Your seeing power is very, very limited. Why do you believe in seeing? That is childish, "I cannot see." What you can see? First of all, let us consider this point. You cannot see anything. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, people will be very surprised to find out that the moon is farther away from us than the sun when they read your..., when they read Fifth Canto. Prabhupāda: But at least, they could not go there. Otherwise, why they are giving up this job? They could not go there. That's a fact. Their plan was to... They were selling land even on the moon planet. Ambarīṣa: Selling land on the moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Śrutakīrti: They were selling airline tickets also. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (laughter) Just see, route. Pan American, yes. They sold so many tickets. Such fools there are. *Bali*-mardana: In New York sometimes people sell new immigrants the Brooklyn Bridge. Prabhupāda: And Moscow Sea. They pitched one flag in the moon planet and named Moscow Sea. Yes. *Indian man: Just like you said that this moon and other planets are also made of these five elements-earth, water, fire, ether*-they brought a rock from there. So they are accepting that the moon is made of those elements also. But they are not accepting that life is there. Prabhupāda: No, they'll not accept. Therefore... therefore fools. Why? The circumstance is the same. Why there should be no life? That is foolishness. We have got experience. As soon as there is water, there is life. As soon as there is land, there is life. As soon as there is air, there is life. So where is life? No life. Devotee (3): They may agree in undeveloped species, but as far as higher forms of life, they will not agree, such as humans or demigods. Prabhupāda: No, that also we cannot agree. If there are lower species, there must be higher species. As we see here is dog also, man also, higher species, lower species, why not there? They can talk all nonsense, but a nonsense will believe. No sane man will believe. [break] ...going to meet in the space? Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is the idea? Ambarīṣa: It's a diplomatic move. They feel it will make friendly relationships between the two countries. Indian man: They cannot meet on the earth and they are going to meet on the... (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: So I am the only man in the world challenging that "You have not gone to the moon planet." Eh? Harikeśa: Is it possible there's some difference as to the definition of what the moon planet is? They will say that the moon planet is that planet out there. Do we agree? At night? Prabhupāda: What is your definition? First of all let me hear. Harikeśa: I'm still wondering myself. Prabhupāda: We have got our definition. Harikeśa: What do we call those planets that rotate around Jupiter and Saturn and... They will say those are also moons. Prabhupāda: Yes. Different planets, different position. Just like this sun planet is fiery. There is fire. Similarly, in moon planet there is fire, but it is surrounded by cold atmosphere. Therefore it is cooling. Harikeśa: So that's the specific characteristic of this moon? Prabhupāda: Which moon? Yes, this is... Harikeśa: Our moon. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: So the other moons that rotate around Saturn and Jupiter... Prabhupāda: Other moon? There is no other moon. Harikeśa: So they're just planets? Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: The moon is not rotating around the earth. The moon is further away than the sun. Harikeśa: The moon is further away than the sun. Wow! (laughs) Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: Why does it seem like the moon is... Prabhupāda: Seen? Who has seen it? First of all let me..., who has seen it? (Devotees are laughing) Harikeśa: There's nothing you can say. Ambarīṣa: Prabhupāda, you said the other day that pretty soon all these lies will be exposed. Prabhupāda: They are already exposed because they have left that expedition. That means they are hopeless. That is exposed. But foolish people will not ask them that "Why you have stopped this expedition?" They will again go on bluffing, and they will accept. That is the position. Now people should ask them, "Why you have stopped moon expedition and Venus expedition? You proposed you were going there, making arrangement. Why you have stopped?" It is failure. Harikeśa: They might argue... Prabhupāda: What is the argument? You have stopped. That is your failure, that's all. You can argue to the laymen, foolish men, but we will say you have stopped; therefore it is failure. All bogus propaganda is now stopped. Devotee (3): They are saying the moon isn't worth develop... Prabhupāda: Now they cannot say anything because they are failure. Anything they say, that is all foolishness. They cannot say anything. Once you are failure, you have no value, anything you say. Harikeśa: I've heard the argument that when they are going to the moon, they are always in contact, bouncing off these sonar waves and radar waves off the moon's surface, and when they are coming near, they can even see from their little portholes the moon's surface, the same moon that they see on the earth. Prabhupāda: They say all nonsense. That's all. (chuckles) Why the earth is not brilliant at night like the moon? *Bali*-mardana: It depends on where you are. It depends on where you are looking from. Prabhupāda: "Where you are" means? Harikeśa: They have pictures from the moon taken of the earth. Prabhupāda: Pictures? First of all you see. Then take picture. You cannot see. Harikeśa: They use all these things to argue that they actually did go to the moon. Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argument if they have stopped? That is failure. Don't talk nonsense anymore. Phalena paricīyate. By the result we have to understand. Your result is you are failure. Then what is the use of talking nonsense? Stop this nonsense. Ambarīṣa: It's like five years ago they declared a war on cancer, and they spent billions and billions of dollars on it, and just the other day they now said that it was a complete failure, that the disease has just kept on growing and growing. Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot stop even cancer disease and you are controlling nature. Just see their (?) false, puffed up. They cannot control one disease, and they are going to control nature. We have to believe that. Harikeśa: He just told me I was spaced out because I wasn't punching this in, but I'm still astounded by the fact that the moon is further away than the sun. When the devotees hear this tape, they're not going to believe it. Prabhupāda: Therefore they could not go. I... First of all I said that they might have gone to the Rahu planet. Harikeśa: Yes, the Fourth Canto. Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all my conviction: they have gone nowhere. They have simply stayed in their laboratory, that's all. Indian man: Anyone can do that, bring some pictures and bring a rock. Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think somebody might have told you before, but there was a big scandal right after the moon shot when they said they went to the moon and..., that it was all staged in the desert of Arizona, that they... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the fact. *Bali*-mardana: When Puruṣottama heard that, he blooped. (Devotees continue laughing.) Prabhupāda: Yes. In 1968 I was questioned by the reporters, "What is your opinion about this moon?" "It is simply a waste of time and energy, that's all. It is all false propaganda." I told to the reporter. Harikeśa: Actually, these scientists and philosophers, they become very famous and popular by coming up with some brand new theories. So why don't we widely publicize our theories? Devotee (3): [break] ...real information about the moon from the *Bhāgavatam*? Prabhupāda: Veda. Veda means knowledge. What is this? Some animal? Paramahaṁsa: Fish. It has those horns, spines, so that no one can bother it. Protection. Paramahaṁsa: It's a porcupine fish. *Bali*-mardana: Blowfish. Śrutakīrti: They blow up like a ball. When someone comes to them, they expand very large. Paramahaṁsa: And their spines stick out straight. It's very dangerous. *Bali*-mardana: Poisonous. [break] *Śrutakīrti: It's twenty*-five before seven. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do we say that they've gone to Rahu simply to placate them? Prabhupāda: No, accidentally they went to Rahu. Maybe. That is also not... Indian man: [break]...gone at all outside this atmosphere of earth. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...haven't gone to moon planet, that is my... [break] ...why they will give it up? That is the proof. America was found by Columbus. So many people came from Europe and utilized it. So if they would have gone to moon planet, they would have utilized it. But they have not gone. That is the fact. Paramahaṁsa: That was their original proposal, that they can utilize it, make colonies there. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes. Devotee (3): The moon exploration, because they thought that we cannot use the moon like Columbus, they used America. Prabhupāda: That is your excuse. Paramahaṁsa: They say it's too much like the desert. Harikeśa: That's cause they were in the desert. (laughs) Prabhupāda: [break] ...grow so many nice dates, you know that? You cannot say in the desert there is no... Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes. Arabia they grow. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] ...desert nice watermelon will grow. Yes. Nice dates. So people go there, take the dates and take the watermelon. Kṛṣṇa has provided food even there. [break] Harikeśa: Would one see gross form on a subtle planet? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: Like the moon planet is heavenly planet. They're supposed to have subtle bodies there. So would there be any gross forms? Prabhupāda: Why subtle body? That is material body. Harikeśa: So we would not be able to see any traces of a civilization? Prabhupāda: There is civilization. You have not gone there, rascal. You are simply imagining. (Devotees laugh) There is civilization. First thing is, you rascal, you did not go. You are talking only nonsense. That's it. Paramahaṁsa: [break] ...Rahu planet, that's a hellish planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. They might have gone to that hellish planet. That's all. *Bali*-mardana: No wonder they left. Paramahaṁsa: That seems more befitting them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes! *Bali*-mardana: They were not qualified to go to the moon, so Kṛṣṇa sent them there. Prabhupāda: Yes, they are not qualified. Even in this planet, unless one is bona fide, he is not allowed to enter America. How you can go to the moon planet? That is demigods' planet. Harikeśa: Some of the astronauts became very religious after they supposedly went. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they are intelligent, that "This is all nonsense. Real thing is God." That is... They come to their senses. They are intelligent. [break] (In car:) ...real business is to enhance your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These people, they are wasting time simply to know something else. There is no limit. Kliśyanti ye kevala*-bodha-labdhaye. What is moon planet? What business you have got to know the...? Whatever is stated in the śāstra, accept it, that's all. What is the use of experiment and going there and then again say, "Oh, it is all failure." Simply waste of time. The arrangement is there by God. That's all. Spending so much money, hard-earned money, unnecessarily and then say, "Oh, it is failure." Paramahaṁsa: If they were a little bit intelligent and had some knowledge of the *Vedas*, they would learn that they could go there... Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there. Just like I am speaking. I am not a scientist. On the knowledge of *Vedas*, that's all. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Just like you have said in the *Easy Journey to Other Planets*, you can go there by the mystic yoga process. You don't have to make some space machine. Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: The scientists want to go there without performing any kind of austerities. Prabhupāda: But there is austerities. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, actually they end up performing greater austerity. Prabhupāda: You have to earn money with so much labor and spend it for nothing. Paramahaṁsa: Billions of dollars. Some of them are working like madmen. Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: They work all day and most of the night. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...expedition is exposition of the scientists: useless. But these materialistic persons will be cheated again and again. Punaḥ punaś carvita*-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30]. The scientists will propose something else and they will accept. They will never say that "You are failure in your moon expedition. Why you are proposing again something nonsense?" They will never ask. They will pay me, "Yes." Ambarīṣa: The government doesn't want the people in general to know that the scientists are failures because they feel that the people will be put into a lot of anxiety because of this. So they... *Prabhupāda: No, they are already in anxiety. This material world means anxiety. So many problems there are. Sadā samudvigna*-dhiyāṁ asad-grahāt [SB 7.5.5]. Because they accepted this material world as all in all, samudvigna, they are full of anxiety. Just like if you are on a boat and if you know that after some hours the boat will be drowned, then can you remain without anxiety? Paramahaṁsa: They have some relief, though, because they think that the scientists will be able to protect them. Prabhupāda: This is their position. This is their position. Just like we are in this car, but we know it, that any moment there can be accident. So how we can be without anxiety? In the material world, on account of this material condition, we are not going to stay here. There must be anxiety. But if we close our eyes, that is different thing. Otherwise it is full of anxiety. [break] "... be free from anxiety, then surrender to Me. What I say, do it." That he will not do. They will manufacture their own way of life. They must be in anxiety. They will never hear what Kṛṣṇa says. And our propaganda is that "Just you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and you will be happy." This is our... That they will not do. Ambarīṣa: ...'60, 1960. When did they start to go to the moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Ambarīṣa: I think President Kennedy started the program in 1960. Prabhupāda: Sending dog first of all? Ambarīṣa: Yeah, mice and then monkeys and... Prabhupāda: [break] ...desert. But here we find, within the desert, petrol. Why not get petrol there and solve your power problem. Can I not raise this question? Ambarīṣa: How would they get it back from the moon? Prabhupāda: There will be petrol. You take it. Ambarīṣa: How would they get it back here? Prabhupāda: As they are coming. They are going and coming. So let them go, and if the surface is desert, then find out oil within. Paramahaṁsa: But their answer would be: "Well, even if we found oil, it would be impossible to bring it to the earth." Indian man: They can make up tanks. Prabhupāda: No, you can make devices, fill it up, and throw it. (laughter) [break] ...mad, you should give them mad suggestion. (laughter) (end) Morning Walk -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu Prabhupāda: ...how they are beautiful. Devotee: Yes. Prabhupāda: Hawaii birds? No. [break]...all these birds? Devotee: I don't know the name. Do you know their names? Devotee: No. Prabhupāda: I think it is Bul buli.(?) Devotee: I don't know their names. Paramahaṁsa: They have those in India? Prabhupāda: Not this red, but bluish color. Paramahaṁsa: Oh. *Prabhupāda: But of the same kind, having bunch of hair. [break] ...three hundred varieties of birds. How many one has seen? One million. Pakṣiṇam dāsa*-lakṣakam. Dāsa-lakṣakam means one million. [break] ...varieties of life, so many varieties of planets, sky, the sea, ocean, the mountains, the rivers, and they want to compete with God. Just see their foolishness. (laughs) Controlling nature, is there... Eh? Bali-mardana? Scientists they want to control nature. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, they try to make it rain or stop the rain. They try different experiments. Prabhupāda: Why not death? Stop death. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, they are trying that also. They are not succeeding. Prabhupāda: That is the misfortune. [break]...they are going to the sky for meeting, the Russian scientists and American scientists? [break] *Bali*-mardana: On big island, the island that you visited where the farm is... Prabhupāda: Huh? *Bali*-mardana: On the island with the farm, the people are, now they are afraid that there will be a volcanic eruption and the whole island will be finished. Prabhupāda: There is such sign? *Bali*-mardana: Yes, because that volcano over there it is still active. It is smoking. It is always smoking. *Śrutakīrti: Siddha*-svarūpa had said every twelve years it erupts, and I think it's been ten years since the last one or something. So it's expected that in two years... Prabhupāda: The last time it devastated? No. Śrutakīrti: I don't know. He said some damage, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Paritally, not completely. Paramahaṁsa: Partial devastation. Prabhupāda: No, when volcano is in smoke, that is dangerous. That is dangerous. [break] Devotee: Shall we sell our land, then? *Prabhupāda: What will come? Trust no future, that's all. We must be always ready for destruction. Material world is like that. Nitya anityatam. Canakya Paṇḍita has says, tyaja durjana*-saṁsargam: "Avoid bad men's company." Bhaja sādhu-samāgamam: "Always try to associate with learned, what is, ādhu, with devotees. Avoid this worldly men's association and try to associate with devotees." Tyaja durjana-saṁsargam bhaja sādhu-samāgamam, and then smara nityam anityatam. "And always think that everything here in this material world is for few days." That's all. Tyaja durjana-saṁsargam bhaja sādhu-samāgamam. [break] Anityatam. [break] ...be the motto of life. [break] ...associate with the materialistic person, try to associate with devotee, and always think that this world is for few days. That's all. Ambarīṣa: This world is what? *Prabhupāda: For few days. Nityam anityatam. [break] ...other. Kuru puṇyam aho*-ratram: "And act piously, day and night." This should be the motto. *Bali*-mardana: That is nice prescription. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...yam aho*-ratram. [break] Civilization is just the opposite. Always act sinfully, not kuru punyam aho-ratram. Twenty-four hours act sinfully. Harikeśa: It seems that practically every single person in society today is going to have to go to one of those hells. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Harikeśa: Every single person in society today is going to have to go to one of those hells. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: ...reads about the different hells he'll become scared. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...animals. The animals... You keep the animals here, and take one of them, slaughter*-they will think, "I am safe." This is animal. All of them will think, "Oh, I am safe. He is being taken. That's all." This is their dull brain, the modern animals. [break]...dvī-pada-paśuḥ. These two-legged animals, they will think like that. Paramahaṁsa: They say that if you have a herd of sheep and one, the first part of the herd falls off of a cliff, then all the rest of them will simply walk off the cliff. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called veriya dāsan. In Hindi, veriya dāsan. Paramahaṁsa: What is that called? Prabhupāda: Veriya dāsan. Paramahaṁsa: What does that mean? Prabhupāda: No, veri means lamb or sheep. Their walk... If you can push one of them in the slaughterhouse, all of them enter. This is called veriya dāsan. You haven't got to endeavor to push others. You just push one only. "Fut, fut, fut, fut, fut, fut, fut," they all enter. (Laughter) In Hindi it is called veriya dāsan. Just cheat one veri, and all others will be followers. [break] Long ago, when we were boys, we saw one comic cinema. That old cinema player was... His name was Max Linder. Max Linder. So this Max Linder was going to a ball dance, and he was waiting in the park, and the ball dance coat, you know? It has got a tail. So he was sitting in a bench, and some naughty boys came and they nailed the tailing part. So when he got up it became torn, like... So his, this hip was visible. So when was dancing in the ball others were seeing his, "What is this?" (laughter) So he went to the mirror, he saw, "Oh?" So he began to dance and show everyone like this. So others said, "What is this?" "This is the latest fashion. This is the latest fashion in ball dancing." "Oh?" Then all cut their tail coat. You see? "The latest fashion." Devotee: That's how they got the cut now. There's a cut in the coat in the back. *Prabhupāda: This is the veriya dāsan. [break] ...taken the story from the Aesop's, no, Hitopadeśa. Laṅguli*-hīna śṛgala, a jackal without tail. So this is the world. Any nonsense you do and if you say, "It is the latest fashion," everyone will do. The miniskirt. One girl made it, so all girl. The veriya not only amongst the sheeps, and the so-called animal sheeps also do that, human sheeps. [break] ...very deep there, the water? They are standing. *Bali*-mardana: Their... The surf boards are sticking out of the water. They are holding on to them. But it is not very deep, about six feet. [break] Prabhupāda: ...might be increasing? No. Paramahaṁsa: This is a spot that has a very large crab population. Many crabs are living here, big ones. Prabhupāda: They catch. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They say it is very good eatables. Paramahaṁsa: Yes, (Laughing) they say like that. Prabhupāda: And crabs? Paramahaṁsa: Clams. Prabhupāda: Oh no? What is called? Paramahaṁsa: Crabs and clams and lobsters... Prabhupāda: Yes. Lobster is very popular. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yes, that is a big delicacy. One lobster, if you buy it in the restaurant, they sell it for at least five dollars. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Paramahaṁsa: Usually closer to ten dollars, for one lobster. Very costly. [break] Prabhupāda: ...import lobster from India. I have seen it. Lobster from Cochin. *Bali*-mardana: South India. Prabhupāda: Ah, South India. Lobster and this, what is called? Labhanga...? Cloves. And these cashew. Cashew is produced in India. [break] ...big, big European companies for doing this business in Cochin. *Bali*-mardana: They were set up by the British? Prabhupāda: Yes, and Greeks. [break] Americans don't care for this business. They want machine. *Bali*-mardana: They do not care for the clam business. [break] Europeans consider Americans a little bit barbarian, a little bit uncivilized. Prabhupāda: Why? *Bali*-mardana: Because they say that they do not have very much manners, etiquette. Prabhupāda: They say boys, they are boys. Ambarīṣa: Unsophisticated. *Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. They are in the make*-up, not yet fully civilized. [break] *Devotee: I was thinking if you would like to stay here for Ratha*-yatra we can make it big Ratha-yatra here. *Prabhupāda: Ratha*-yatra? *Devotee: Yes. [break] ...different places, you like to stay here in this nice place, you can translate. Everyone wants you to stay here. I heard one of your letters quoted in Śrī Govinda's letter that you like Ratha*-yatra very much. So I think you would like to go somewhere. So if we can have it here, you can attend here. Prabhupāda: What he is doing? Śrutakīrti: Cleaning his fishing net. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ratha? Devotee: We can build it. We have few carpenters here, four or five carpenters. We can build it. [break] *Prabhupāda: If you can build it, do it. I may be here or may not be here, but you observe the Ratha*-yatra. [break] ...trying to make Ratha-yatra in Kurukṣetra. That is the origin of Ratha-yatra. [break] It is light? Devotee: Light. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...introduce in India two places: one at Kurukṣetra, one at Bhuvaneśvara. Ratha*-yatra. [break] ...the cost of one house like this? Ambarīṣa: One of those condominiums? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: The skyscraper. Ambarīṣa: Oh, the whole building? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Fifty million dollars. Ambarīṣa: Fifty million. Śrutakīrti: That is that steel boat we were looking at to get. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Śrutakīrti: The white boat there... Prabhupāda: White boat? Śrutakīrti: Yes, the large white boat just there, that is the one we were after. That is the steet boat. Prabhupāda: Oh. This one? Śrutakīrti: Yes, the large one, the biggest one there. Harikeśa: It's not so big. [break] Prabhupāda: ...can avoid. Śrutakīrti: Yes. (end) Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu Yogi Bhajan: How are you? Prabhupāda: Not very well. Yogi Bhajan: You have carried a big load. What is... Will you be in a position to come to the conference? Prabhupāda: I don't think so. Which conference? Yogi Bhajan: This Unity of Man Conference. Prabhupāda: Where it is? Yogi Bhajan: New Mexico. There are about, we have confirmed sixteen teachers coming from, various people from India. We have confirmation of people coming all around the world. Prabhupāda: So they have not invited me, I don't think. Yogi Bhajan: The invitation must have gone. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogi Bhajan: We invited everybody. Prabhupāda: Ah, but I have not received an invitation. Yogi Bhajan: Oh, it may be on the way. Prabhupāda: Mexico City? Yogi Bhajan: New Mexico. Paramahaṁsa: That's in America. It's one of the states in America, right next to Texas. Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. Santa Fe. We have decided that this is the time for everybody to get together and get their scene together and merge together. Prabhupāda: They will never. (laughs) You may call all conferences, hundreds and thousands, but they will never, because there is no common platform. Godless. Yogi Bhajan: That is what we are trying to provide. Prabhupāda: But you are trying, that's nice, but it will be never successful. You can write it down. Yogi Bhajan: Well, perhaps it is very simple. Somebody has to break the ice. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yogi Bhajan: Somebody has to break the ice. Somebody, it doesn't matter who. Somebody has to go out and say, "You are welcome. Come in." And it has shown response. Even the prime minister has agreed to it. First she was not agreeing. And she is coming in Mexico. Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi? Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. She will be there on the 17th and 18th. So we are carrying that spirit. Prabhupāda: The thing is everyone is trying to be united. That United Nation is for the last twenty years. They started in 1947, United Nations? Eh? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, '47. Prabhupāda: And it is seventy... Paramahaṁsa: Almost thirty years. Prabhupāda: Thirty years. What they have done? All the best men of the whole world, they are there, but no united, simply disunited. Common platform, they are not agreeable. They do not accept God. Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty, no central point. You have got your own philosophy. I have got my own philosophy. He has got his own philosophy. Now, how we will agree? Yogi Bhajan: No, I may not agree with your philosophy, and you may not agree with my philosophy, but one thing we both have agreed that you are you, and I am I, and both can have respect and love for each other. And there has to be a place where everybody should be given that opportunity. *Prabhupāda: That is going on. When I meet you I say, "Yes sir." You say, "Yes sir." That is all right. That is social etiquette. But real unity is on the platform of spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Paṇḍita, he is sama-darśina. So paṇḍitāḥ means Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's agreed. But... *Prabhupāda: So that requires education. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kā... samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. When one is Brahman realized, then he can see equally. But that requires education, how to become brahma-bhūtaḥ. But everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how it can be possible? So we may attempt, but it is not possible. Yogi Bhajan: There are a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions given against each other. Prabhupāda: No, no. Misconception... Just like you have got a body; I have got a body. If I say, "No, I don't like you "... If I say, "I don't like you"... Naturally, when we see superficially, then this tendency will go on. When you see inside, introspectively, then there will be equality. That requires education. So... Yogi Bhajan: All right, come and educate. *Prabhupāda: (Chuckling) But that education is there, the beginning, in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yogi Bhajan: No, you are shy. *Prabhupāda: Bhagavad*-gītā and the education is there, that, immediately Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, there is the soul. This is the beginning of education. But there are many learned scholars; they do not believe in the soul. That is the difficulty. They do not believe. A big, big professor.... I have been in Moscow. Professor Kotovsky, he said, "No, there is no soul. After this finishing of the body, everything is finished." Yogi Bhajan: But they don't have experience. Prabhupāda: Therefore... So if you assemble some not experienced men, then how there will be unity? Yogi Bhajan: No, granted. What we are trying to do is we are giving out a call to all learned, the unlearned... But basic fact is: there is a desire somewhere in the ether that everybody wants to feel each other. And they have not done anything good by negating each other or talking negatively. They have not gained anything. They have realized it now. Otherwise... Prabhupāda: Now, what will be the basic principle of unity? That is the point. Yogi Bhajan: The point of basic unity is respect for each other. Prabhupāda: But that is going on. Suppose you have come here. I welcome you. If I go to your place, you welcome me. That respect is going on. Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's right. That is between two individuals. Prabhupāda: Similarly, whenever we come in a big assembly, we respect each one, gentlemen. There is no harm. Yogi Bhajan: No, no, but people do not understand why we are like this, why they wear like this. They don't get a chance to explain. At Interreligious Council, I am a member. They never knew. They think we are the most weird people from the Mars perhaps. They don't understand a bit. And now our legal services are helping them, and all sorts of things have happened, and they are trying to understand. And when the last president left the office, he said, in his words of departure, he said, "I am only limited by the Christ. I never understood anything else. But I do feel from that limit that God is unlimited and it is in everybody." Asking a fanatic Christian to make that statement to the general assembly, it took us about two years. Prabhupāda: Hm. You find so many fanatics. How you will unite them? Yogi Bhajan: Gradually, one by one, one by one, they will understand. Love is the winning point. That's why they don't understand. When they find love from you, they will find love from me, they will love from people, they will love from everybody else. You know, you can take a mango stick and beat somebody, but you can take mango off it and eat. Effort has to be made somehow. And now... Prabhupāda: Effort is being made, but the platform, the world where you are staying, that effort is very difficult to fulfill. Yogi Bhajan: That is agreed. That's typical, difficulty is agreed. I go to India; I find the difficulty. I am here; I find the difficulty. But there are genuine people in the spiritual work... Prabhupāda: But one thing is, just like you said some Christian priests? Yogi Bhajan: Yes. Prabhupāda: That "I realize that one, God is one." So if God is one and every one of us after God, then why there is disagreement? Yogi Bhajan: Well, those... Everybody has limited egos, so we understand that. Prabhupāda: No, we should... The conference should be made that if there is God and God is one, then who is that God? What is His characteristic? That should be discussed. Yogi Bhajan: Well, that's what I say. But what we are trying to do is spend all, what we have righteously earned, provide that platform, and invite somebody. My personal feeling is even if somebody comes and tell us there that we are the worst being on the world, but by coming and opening himself up, herself, he at least acknowledges that there is a mutual existence. At this time I have walked away to every corner, here and there, everywhere. Some people are not aware totally. I was asked one day a question, "Why these Hare Kṛṣṇa people dance in the streets?" Prabhupāda: Ecstasy. Yogi Bhajan: I said, "Why not?" I asked the question. I said, "Why not? What is wrong with them? What do you feel?" "But that's not in America. You know, we don't go and dance everywhere." I said, "You go in ballroom dances and you dance all the time. You drink and you dance, and you do what you want to do. And they just, in their own life, feel that they enjoy dancing right for God and the world. You dance for your own social contact. They dance for their own divine contact. What is wrong with them? Their leader, their prophet, their spiritual guide danced to God, and they dance to God. Why you think, why you go to the church?" "We go to pray." I said, "That's their prayer. Why don't you understand the prayer aspect of it? Why you want to understand how they dress, how they like, how they dislike each other?" And the second question somebody asked me, "But do you think somebody has the right to convert our children?" I said, "But do you think somebody has not the right..." Prabhupāda: I never asked them to be converted. Yogi Bhajan: Well, I understand that. My situation is sometimes people ask you a question about me. They think I am another religion, they can ask question of me. Prabhupāda: ...Dr. Judah has written. Where is that book? That Dr. Judah's book? Ambarīṣa: We took it to court, and I think (indistinct name)) has it. Prabhupāda: One professor, Dr., what is his name? Paramahaṁsa: Stillson. Prabhupāda: Stillson Judah, he has... Many others also written books about us, but his book is very scholarly. He has written the same thing that... What is that dedication? Śrutakīrti: "To the devotees who have found fulfillment in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to their parents who have raised them." Ambarīṣa: "So they will understand." Prabhupāda: Ah, "the parents who will understand them." My students, mostly they are young, mostly within thirty, some of them little above thirty. So some of their parents they come and congratulate me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come to our country." That I receive many. But there are other many parents, they are not happy. Yogi Bhajan: We are starting a parent organization for our kids. We invite the mothers, parents, ask them to stay, and send them back. Idea is basic, and the fundamental idea is: what you are doing is God's will, these people who are following you is God's will, and those who will receive it as God's will... But it is not that everybody sees that God will. *Prabhupāda: No. God's will is open. Kṛṣṇa says, man*-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. God says that "You always think of Me. You just become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your respect to Me." This is God's will. "And if you do this, then you are coming back to Me." It is clearly said. God's will is declared. There is no secret. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad... Find out this ninth verse, er, Ninth Chapter. Yes. Read it. *Bali*-mardana: Sanskrit? Prabhupāda: That's all. This is God's will. It is not secret. It is open. But the thing is that everyone has got his different God. Yogi Bhajan: Well, question is very fundamental. Everybody has his own God, so let everybody bring one's own God in understanding. It's not... God is... Prabhupāda: God... you have got own God. God says, "Always think of Me." Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. That's true. *Prabhupāda: So that's all right. The followers may think of Him. Man*-manā. "You become My devotee, become My devotee and worship Me and offer respect to Me," that's all. So we are teaching our student, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Him. You just offer your respect and worship Him. In this way become His devotee." We do not... Spiritually, thing is (?) (indistinct) That's all right. And they are doing that and they are getting the result. We do not say that "Sit down, press your nose, and meditate and this, that," or, no. Simple thing. There is God, we have got our temple... (Aside:) Don't make now this sort of thing.... Simple thing. We have got our temple. We say that "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Here is God. And think of Him." As soon as you chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa..." Everyone has got the beads. That means you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. And then we are offering respect, go to the temple and offer our obeisance, very simple thing. So we accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if you don't accept, then you must have your own God. Do that. But the followers of Vedic principle, they will accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. I think somebody was telling me that Guru Nanak also accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme father. Is it a fact? I do not know. Yogi Bhajan: No, we have in Siri Guru Grantha lot of things about Lord Rāma, about Lord Kṛṣṇa, about... Prabhupāda: Now, what is Kṛṣṇa? How Kṛṣṇa is accepted? Is He accepted as the Supreme Lord? Yogi Bhajan: Kṛṣṇa is accepted as incarnation of God. Prabhupāda: Well, incarnation of God and God, there is no difference. *Yogi Bhajan: That's it. Also there is a fundamental message in that, that as God created everyone, God created all of us, and in Sikh dharma God, whatever we want to call it, ultimate reality, beyond sunya*-samadha, the truth, and Lord Kṛṣṇa in His incarnation taught, Lord Rāma taught. And what our problem at this time at the humanity is: the humanity is divided in many forms. And it is the inner hatred which people want to expel (spell?) out. Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that every, at least, religious sect... I don't say others, nonreligious or agnostic. There are Christian, Mohammedan, Hindu, Sikhs, or any religious system, they have accepted that there is God, Supreme Truth. Yogi Bhajan: No, there is one fundamental thing which this movement may not know. In Dasan Grantha, Guru Govind Singh wrote down Kṛṣṇa avatāra. Prabhupāda: Avatāra... *Yogi Bhajan: Kṛṣṇa avatāra is in his own poetry. It is about Lord Kṛṣṇa. If somebody of these people who know Sanskrit and who know guru*-mukhi can translate that part... Prabhupāda: No, translate or not translate, we have already accept Kṛṣṇa God. So if Guru Nanak has described Him as God, that's all right. Then if Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by Guru Nanak, and Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by us, why not put this God, one God? Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. One God is all right. That everybody will agree. But everybody... Prabhupāda: That one God, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the same, I am the one God, that Supreme Lord." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Where is...? Find out this verse. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kincid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Devotee: Chapter Seven, text seven. You'd like it read? Prabhupāda: And so all the ācāryas of India, including Guru Nanak, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Śaṅkarācārya, Guru Nanak, they have accepted God Kṛṣṇa. So why not present this God all over the world? Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but question is very simple. Present it among the other Gods. Time has come of a mutual presentation. *Prabhupāda: No, mutual presentation, simply talking will not do. Suppose we are presenting from India. If we accept Kṛṣṇa... We have accepted, as you say. As so far other ācāryas, namely, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, the Viṣṇu Svāmī, and then, Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya, and Guru Nanak*-practically the whole India, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. Prabhupāda: Now, in India, I think, people ask me the "How many they are Kṛṣṇa conscious?" "Everyone in India." At least in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So the majority of people... And why majority? The whole India. Even there are many Mohammedans who also worship Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa is God, we, in this conference, why not present, "Here is God, whose name is Kṛṣṇa." *Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but understand one thing. In layer, that Ka*-rish-na, when the kar comes to sunya, at that consciousness if a person does not release to himself, he is not... Prabhupāda: What is that, sunya? Yogi Bhajan: Sunya. Prabhupāda: Sunya? Mean zero? God is zero? Yogi Bhajan: No, it is not zero, it is where the kar, the action, stops. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogi Bhajan: That is the Godhead. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is reaction... Yogi Bhajan: But everybody here in this world, four billion people, everybody does not have that experience... Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say that every religious sect believes in God. Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. Prabhupāda: If we present, "Here is God. You are seeking after God. Here is God," now what they will say? Yogi Bhajan: Well, some will say, "Yes, it is." Some will say, "No." Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So if he says no, "Why do you say no? Then what is your conception of God?" Yogi Bhajan: Well, that is what we want to understand basically. That's what we are talking about, one thing. Your realization about God is a very universal realization. Somebody on this human level is very limited. After all, the limited and the unlimited have to be brought together. Prabhupāda: No. Limited cannot understand God. Limited is limited. Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. Prabhupāda: Mahātmā means unlimited. Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. *Prabhupāda: Mahā. Mahā means very great. So unless one has very big understanding, he cannot understand God. God is unlimited. So you have (to) come to that platform to understand. Those who are limited, they cannot understand God. That is not possible. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha. Siddha means one who has become unlimited, Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, Brahman realization. So Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: "Out of many millions of person," kaścid yatati siddhaye, "somebody is trying to become unlimited." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ: [Bg. 7.3] "Those who have become unlimited, out of millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa understanding, God understanding.... When I say Kṛṣṇa, God. God understanding is for the perfect unlimited, not for common man. Common man should accept the ācāryas. They must follow. Ācāryopāsanam. Just like in India the Sikhs, they follow Guru Nanak. So Guru Nanak says, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa, incarnation of God." So they should accept, that's all. Not that every Sikh is expected to be unlimited as Guru Nanak. That is not expected. But they should follow Guru Nanak. Then they will understand. Guru Nanak says, "Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of God." The all the Sikhs should accept, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is..." Then it is all right. It is not expected that every Sikh will understand Kṛṣṇa. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. The mahājana, the ācārya, what path they have shown, that will show. All the ācāryas, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. And Arjuna, who directly listened Bhagavad*-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, he accepted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān [Bg. 10.12]. So in this we have to follow. Otherwise it is not possible. What they will understand? They must follow the ācārya. If Guru Nanak says "I accept Lord Kṛṣṇa as God,".... God's incarnation and God-there is no difference. Then why the Sikhs should not accept Kṛṣṇa as God? Yogi Bhajan: That doesn't solve the problem of the world. Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we know, "Here is God," then it will solve the problem. But if we do not accept... If I... I can hear from you, provided I know that you are some big man. Otherwise how shall I agree to hear from you? The obedience must be there. A student, a small child, hears the teacher because he knows that "My teacher is very great." Yogi Bhajan: No, we may try to become limited or unlimited. Question is very simple. There are four billion people on this earth and... Prabhupāda: And therefore they are not expected to understand, four billion. They should follow the leader. It is not expected that... Yogi Bhajan: That is what we are trying to do. We are going to get the leaders together. Prabhupāda: That leaders... the leaders are already there. Now, suppose Guru Nanak says "Kṛṣṇa is God," so will the Sikhs follow Guru Nanak or their own whims? Yogi Bhajan: No, no, Sikh will follow the instructions... Prabhupāda: Of Guru Nanak. Yogi Bhajan: ...Guru Nanak. Prabhupāda: The Guru Nanak says Kṛṣṇa is God. Yogi Bhajan: That's very true. Kṛṣṇa is God. Prabhupāda: Then why don't you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction? Yogi Bhajan: We are not disobeying any instruction towards God. *Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's... What Kṛṣṇa says, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you take it, Bhagavad-gītā, that instruction? What is wrong there? Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic... Now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social*-Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. The human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are. First class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; *and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first*-class man... Who is a first-class man? Then... Find out. Satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam [Bg. 18.42]. Train first-class men. He must be truthful. He must be self-controlled, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. He must have full knowledge of the whole world, jñānaṁ vijñānam, practical application. So where is the question of that "I am Sikh," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim..." Yogi Bhajan: No, no, the question is very simple, what the people will ask you. The caste system, what did to India... Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. Yogi Bhajan: It turned into. Prabhupāda: This is classification of the human being. This is not caste system. Just like we are making this American boy a brāhmaṇa. So this is a brāhmaṇa caste? Yogi Bhajan: No, but that is only... Prabhupāda: We have been training them to, how to acquire the brāhmaṇa qualification. It doesn't matter whether he is coming from Christian family or Mohammedan family, this... No. Just like if you train one how to become engineer, it doesn't matter from which family he comes. It doesn't matter. Any family, he can come. He can be trained how to speak truthfulness. Satyam. What is that? So... Devotee: The verse is... Prabhupāda: Satya śama damaḥ titikṣa. You don't find? Devotee: I thought it was the verse about the qualities of a brāhmaṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, what is that? Devotee: "Peacefulness, self..." Prabhupāda: No, no, what is the Sanskrit verse? *Devotee: The one I have is text forty*-two of Chapter Eighteen, but I don't think that's the one you're quoting from. Prabhupāda: What is the verse? You cannot read? Devotee: Śamo damas tapaḥ... Prabhupāda: Ah, śamo damaḥ, that's it. Read. Devotee: Śamo damas tapaḥ śaucam kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ... [Bg. 18.42]. *Prabhupāda: Brahma*-karma svabhāva... this is first-class man. Śamaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the sense or controlling the mind. And damaḥ, controlling the sense. Now, if either you may be Hindu, Muslim, Christian... Now, if I say, "Please come here. Learn this thing, how to control the mind, how to control the senses," so who will object to it? So if anyone is trained up, it doesn't matter from which sect, which family he is coming, if he has learned how to control the mind, how control the senses, then he becomes first-class man. So we have got everything already spoken by God. If we accept it, then there is unity. But we don't accept, we manufacture something. That is the difficulty. Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but let us agree to confer... Prabhupāda: No, no. Your... Yogi Bhajan: There will be difficulty. *Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is that we don't agree. If I say, "Come here. Be educated," and if you don't agree, "No, no. I don't want," then how you can be educated? One must agree what God says. They will say, "I believe. We believe." What is the "I believe, we believe"? If you want to become first*-class man, then this is the formula: Control your mind, control your senses, be fully in knowledge. Practically apply knowledge in life. So this is first class. Then the second-class men, you see, what is that? Kṣatriya. Devotee: Prabhupāda: Next class. First class, either you say first class or brāhmaṇa. The second class... Yogi Bhajan: Kṣatri. Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya, the administrator. They have got(?) śauryam. Then what is the word, śauryam? Devotee: Heroism. Prabhupāda: Huh? Devotee: Śauryam... Prabhupāda: Heroism. That is... Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit. He was going on his tour, and he saw one black man was trying to kill a cow. Immediately he took his sword, "Who are you? You are trying to kill cow in my kingdom?" This is called heroism. Now, where is that hero? And they are becoming president. How he will command? He is not hero. Everyone has right to live. Why they are killing animals? This is heroism. As soon as he saw that a rascal is going to kill a cow, "Why you are doing this?" Immediately he took his sword. Heroism. Then? Devotee: "Power, determination..." Prabhupāda: Power. He must have power, influence. Why he should beg vote, "Give me vote, give me vote, give me vote," begging? Where is power? If he is begging vote, where is power? Formerly the kings... Just like they used to take sword. "If you don't accept me, then I shall kill you." This is power. Śauryaṁ tejam... Devotee: Dhṛtir, determination. Prabhupāda: Determination, and yuddhe ca apalāyanam. Now when there is war, these politician will remain in their room safely. They will not go to the war. And why these people are voted for political post? Formerly the king would first of all stand. To the other side also, the king is there and this side also. The fight is going on. If the king is killed, then the victory is there. Yuddhe ca apalāyanam. The formula is there. So these classes of man should be on the administration, not anyone coward, nonsense, and by hook and crook they get some vote and take the political leader... How you will find peace? The fourth class is required. Just like in your body you have got brain, brain is required. Then hand. Whenever there is some attack, consciously, unconsciously, I forward my hand. So the division is already there. If you come to attack me with a knife, I don't push my head. I push my hand. So when there is attack, the brāhmaṇas are not expected to go forward; *the kṣatriyas. So this is training. Everything is perfectly there. People are not accepting. You don't require conference. You simply accept the standard knowledge. Then everything is there. I am speaking to you because you are leader of the society. So if we take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and train people from all over the world -not that Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindu or for the Indians*-for everyone, then there will be all right. Otherwise difficult... Yogi Bhajan: No, I definitely agree that you must be successful in that mission now. And you have practically and honestly taught what you believed in. My idea... Prabhupāda: No, no. "I honestly believe." Why don't you honestly believe? Yogi Bhajan: I believe that you honestly believe... Prabhupāda: But you also try. Yogi Bhajan: That's what I am saying. This is the time... *Prabhupāda: Yes, you accept this Bhagavad*-gītā as the standard knowledge and preach it. Yogi Bhajan: I read it, I preach it, I understand it. That's in my concept. Prabhupāda: That is wanted. That is wanted. Yogi Bhajan: What I am trying to reach is that this concept which you honestly believe as individual must be shared. Prabhupāda: No, no. I, again you take... Why "I honestly believe"? Why you honestly do not believe? Yogi Bhajan: Well, every honest understanding will believe that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogi Bhajan: There is no individuality in that... Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Yogi Bhajan: But still there is individuality. Prabhupāda: No individuality. Then suppose you are leader of a group. If you honestly believe, teach them. They will accept it. Yogi Bhajan: So that is why we are having understanding, why we are to gather today at this point. Because we understand that one particle... *Prabhupāda: Yes. So if we accept, if we try to convince the people that "We haven't got to research how to unite the whole world. The things are already there in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Accept it and follow it, everything will be done." Yogi Bhajan: Come for a message then. Prabhupāda: Message is already there. I am giving you the message. Yogi Bhajan: Well, they are coming about lot of people, and they would like to understand and..., what this Kṛṣṇa movement... Prabhupāda: No. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. If you carry this message... It is not my message; it is the message of Kṛṣṇa. I have not manufactured this message. I am imperfect. But I am presenting the perfect message. That is my business. I don't say I am perfect. I am simply carrier, peon. When a peon delivers a money order, thousand dollars, it is not his money. He simply carries. So my business is to carry Kṛṣṇa's message. That's all. Yogi Bhajan: It is very kind of you. But if you carry this message to New Mexico, to all those guys, (laughing) it will be a great joy. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yogi Bhajan: I am also carrying the message of those limited ones who want to share the unlimited ones. And that's what the whole attempt was, to provide a platform where limited, unlimited... Prabhupāda: No.... First of all, just like you are leader, similarly, all the leaders must accept. Yogi Bhajan: Yes, Swami Dhirendra... Prabhupāda: Then the followers will accept. Yogi Bhajan: Swami Dhirendra Brahmacary has flown all the way from India to just participate in that. Other people, Ācārya... Prabhupāda: Who is, who is that? Swami Dhirendra...? *Bali*-mardana: President? Yogi Bhajan: Prime minister's guru. *Bali*-mardana: What is his name? Yogi Bhajan: Swami Dhirendra Brahmacary. He has flown... *Prabhupāda: But prime minister guru, does he believe in Bhagavad*-gītā? Yogi Bhajan: Oh, yeah. He knows it by heart, word to word. That's true. Prabhupāda: So why he does not teach his disciple, followers? *Yogi Bhajan: He teaches, he teaches, he teaches. He's a very good man. And there are other ācāryas and Śaṅkarācārya Math and other people are coming. We have the list in Los Angeles, about sixty who have accepted to come. Then from the Judeo*-Christian thoughtway(?) people are participating. And then... Prabhupāda: No, they will come and they will go away, that's all. Yogi Bhajan: No, understand... Prabhupāda: There will be... There will be no understanding. I know that. There will be no understanding. You can write it down in your notebook. They will come, and they will say, and they will go away, that's all. I have dealt with all these men very nicely. You see? Yogi Bhajan: I understand the pain, but still... Prabhupāda: And still you may go on, taking this pain. Yogi Bhajan: Effort, effort. There is nothing wrong to put that honest effort. Because lot things you can say which I cannot say. Prabhupāda: No, I do not say anything. Yogi Bhajan: You have seen this. *Prabhupāda: Whatever I have said, I am quoting from the Bhagavad*-gītā. You have seen it. I don't say anything. I never say, "It is my opinion," "I think." No, I never say like that. Yogi Bhajan: This style, they will look at it and like it. And there will be nobody else who can exactly present this style. Prabhupāda: If you like to go me, I can go there. That's all right. Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, yeah, it must... It is... My basic idea is you in Kṛṣṇa consciousness can present a style which a Judeo, a rabbi, may not be in a position to do it. Prabhupāda: That is certain. Nobody can present. Yogi Bhajan: All right. Then that guy, that guy has the love for his conviction. Where mutual convictions can meet and still create a harmony... My honest opinion is that it is the time. World has become small. Kṛṣṇa consciousness has spread. Message of Guru Nanak has spread. Message of Lord Rāma has spread. Message of Jesus has spread. Message of Moses has spread. All right. Now the spread is going to interact. And in that, somebody with this style can come in and can represent right. You will be my personal guest and you will be in a position... We will do whatever personally we can do for that whole situation. But it will be a good idea to talk to all these people, to make them understand, and from when your mouth the person will understand why Hare Kṛṣṇa person goes on the street and chant... They have got fundamental things to say. They do not know. They have different versions to hear, they have versions to talk. Prabhupāda: No, it is... We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That, find out the... Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. *Yogi Bhajan: Kali*-yuga mem kīrtana pradhana. Now Śrī Guru Grantha says, Guru Nanak writes himself, correct versions are many, but my idea is: it is good to hear from you. *Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Yogi Bhajan: I know. Prabhupāda: *Yogi Bhajan: I would like you to meet that great Sanātana*-dharma representative, who will be coming. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Yogi Bhajan: Sanātana*-dharma Pratirini(?) is sending their representative. I forget his name. It is much better he hears from you among the, among the wise. Prabhupāda: What is that verse? Devotee: Prabhupāda: We are doing that, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Always chanting My glories." And we are doing that-"Hare Kṛṣṇa." We are not introducing anything new. That is not our business. Yogi Bhajan: So we will have the privilege to have this ancient one among us for those three days, and be there and present your style and your... Prabhupāda: When, when, when is... Devotee: When is the date? Yogi Bhajan: It is twenty... Girl: 27th, 28th, and 29th. Śrutakīrti: Of this month. Yogi Bhajan: June. Prabhupāda: June. Śrutakīrti: That is this month? Prabhupāda: This month, yes. Yogi Bhajan: This month, June. Prabhupāda: New Mexico. Śrutakīrti: It is not very far from Los Angeles if you wanted to go, maybe an hour flight. Yogi Bhajan: No, hour and a half. We will receive you at Albuquerque. And we would like you to come the day the other Indian gurus are coming because we would like to receive them at the airport and we would like to have state banquet arranged for every visitors. And our basic idea is to bring understanding among all men of God. And... Prabhupāda: Hm. It is a good idea. Yogi Bhajan: And in spite of the fact nothing may happen... Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yogi Bhajan: Something will happen. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yogi Bhajan: At least, people will know you, people will have met you, people who have never met you, that way. So whosoever come will come with God will, and whosoever will do something will do something with God will. And we will enjoy the experience to be the host, and that I think is our karma. We must pay that. *Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that is if we want to do something substantial, we must come on a common platform. That common platform is already there. Every line of Bhagavad*-gītā is so nice... Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but sir... Prabhupāda: Nobody can argue on it. Yogi Bhajan: You have to provide the opportunity for those who will not have the chance to meet you to meet you. Those who have no opportunity to listen to you to listen to you. Those who have not seen you to see you. And I think that has its value. I never... I would never have gone to meet Sant Kirpal Singh. He came. And there the idea of this Unity of Man Conference was framed. And I left all the way to India, and I asked him one thing which I loved in him. He said, "Well, I am going to die next year. You take over," and I said, "Forget it, that's not my job. I'm not going to take over anything from anybody. I have to do what I have to do." Then he said, "Well, this is the idea. Would you try to be second with me in this time?" I said, "All right, I'll do that." And in the end I almost was convinced that he is a great man. And he asked me, he said, "You don't believe in anybody except God. Human forms are very... I understand you, I know you," because he knows me from very childhood. But I asked him one thing. I said, "I have never seen a saint on whom saints believe. They all have their own territories and whole thing." You know. Prabhupāda: Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "He is not a muni if he does not disagree with another muni." Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's right. (laughter) So what I told him was that "It is a good idea." So we are carrying that good idea now, and Muni Sushila Kumar is coming from India, then Swami Chittananda is leading that tour. And they have sent a list of sixteen other religious people who are coming. They are going to U.N.O., where the peace presentation this year is happening. I think we should participate in that. Then there is a vegetarian congress. There the participation is happening. And all this has been done just to lay the platform and honor the idea of that man Kirpal Singh Sant. Just he wanted that way. So we thought it is a better idea to be in the West and with the arrangements that everybody can come, participate, talk to each other. I would like you to be in New Mexico in one of the presentable cabin, and not let anybody of these devotee of you be around but to ask other people to come and talk to you, learn from you, share with you, share your wisdom, share your conviction, share your experience... Prabhupāda: That's a good idea, very good. Yogi Bhajan: And I like all these guys to come and talk to me and when they will listen me talking *Gītā*, perhaps they will understand, "Well, Yogiji knows little bit about what we know about." So when they pronounce certain words, I just sometime correct in between, but I don't tell them anything because they know... Prabhupāda: Where is your headquarter? Yogi Bhajan: Los Angeles. We are neighbors. Prabhupāda: Oh. Los Angeles. Yogi Bhajan: We are almost neighbors. We are few blocks from each other. Prabhupāda: Now, when you have started? Yogi Bhajan: About five years ago. Six years. Prabhupāda: Six years. We started there in the... Śrutakīrti: About the same time. Yogi Bhajan: About you when it came in Illustrated Weekly, I was in India. Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. Yogi Bhajan: So I am very recent here. But I go to Hare Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Where is your address in Los Angeles? Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. They all come Sunday. They come to our Guru Dvara on every Sunday. People participate. We have our magazine, and this was our anniversary renaisance, which we issued... Rather, I was planning if some of your ācārya can come and I can give them a program for Kṛṣṇa consciousness development and authoritative human aspects of *Gītā*, which I teach in UCLA, they can participate and start courses in that. Because everybody is special in certain areas, and I thought that was a better idea. However... Prabhupāda: These pictures of...? Yogi Bhajan: This is Golden Temple, Amritsar. Prabhupāda: Amritsar. *Yogi Bhajan: Five years ago we had a one*-paper print. We used to give it away for five cents. That developed into a paper. This is how everything develops. And my basic idea is people must share. And why not come there, participate, share, say what you have to say? It is one of the funny coincidence that we both live in Culver City. We live very adjoining to each other. And I go to your temple, see how it is made and how they are doing and what kind of marble they are using. And I have a lot of things to criticize but... You know. They are messing it up, but they are spending a lot of money. (laughter) So I don't mind what they are doing, but it is really a waste, lot of it is waste. I go and watch and it hurts me. But I just go around see, after all. You must have very wise architects. Prabhupāda: They are very expert in wasting. (laughter) Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that I have seen. That is totally what annoys me sometime and then I go and "Well, say you have to learn this way. It doesn't matter." Now, the Mexico marble has a flower arranged in it. Everybody has two eyes, and that flower arrange can be arranged, and none of your persons, in spite of my... One day I yelled at them and say, "I am going to pull your out of your this little hair, and what are you doing, waste of time?" They said, "Well, we have to ask some mahātmā, some ācārya. Someone will tell him the message." I went again next day. They did it exactly what was wrong. But you know, they are kids. They will learn. So I go and poke my nose all the time because I thought if I can tell them, they will do it better. But my basic situation is we are doing... Prabhupāda: The Americans, they have no value for their money. Yogi Bhajan: No, no, nothing. Prabhupāda: Therefore they can waste very lavishly. Yogi Bhajan: But they are very beautiful people. One of the girl there in your organization almost brought tears to my eyes. And it is very seldom I have tears, and I love them when they come. And she said to me, she just came and hugged me. "Oh, Yogiji, I love you, you came." I said, "Oh, don't tell anybody. I just want to go around. And I want to run away." So she knows me. And she took me to her one store where there where a lot of books, and she asked me to have some books, and some of them I had, some I didn't. So I picked up. And she said, "You know, we were raised like dogs. Now we are being raised like gods. You think this old man, our god, is going to stay with us?" You know, she is very young in your organization. I said, "What are you talking, a old man?" She said, "Our Prabhupāda." Then she took your whole name with reverence. And I looked in her eyes. I said, "Look, my dear daughter, if that man has taught you so much love, then you will never be separated. Keep doing what you are doing. You will be all right." There is devotion. There is a power to learn. There is a power to gain. They have many faults, but they have many merits also. I think it is a time to present them, as they perform of the humanist to the whole world. And that will take away a lot of misunderstandings. Prabhupāda: No, misunderstanding, there are... That will continue. You see? Yogi Bhajan: I hundred percent agree. When we wanted to join the... Prabhupāda: Especially in the Western countries they had misunderstanding with Christ so that they crucified him. You see? So this is the... Yogi Bhajan: We can do all that, and still, it will be useful. Prabhupāda: No, no, we can... We can advise. Yogi Bhajan: Your visit will be useful, and it will be very divine to come with a message, with a conviction. You know, I have come to this conference here. Prabhupāda: Which conference? Yogi Bhajan: This, what is happening in Waikiki. Girl: Rainbow Festival. Yogi Bhajan: That Rainbow Festival. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that? Yogi Bhajan: There is a huge... There are about two hundred people all around the mainland and the whole thing. Girl: Metaphysical conference, psychics. Yogi Bhajan: Metaphysical, psychics, intuitives, people who can perform things. They are all in God. I was surprised last night that A to Z, everybody talks about God, and none of them understands that the God is right in them. So I was one among them. It did change the whole thing. I honestly believe that it was very good for me to come. If I would have gone to the equals, where if I find some equal, it would not have done any good, you know. They all know what they know. We all know that what we know. But it was amazing that people liked it, people talked, people asked questions, people... Whatever I could share, I shared. But in the evening I was surprised. There were two hundred people, beautiful, seeking some way or the other, and looking for certain things for their life. So my only idea was that I have never worked less than these five, six days. It was very boring for me. There was no work. But I liked it. At least, I could share with them; they could share with me. First they were all doubtful what a yogi is, what a yoga is. I said, "Well, it is... After all, they were not asking me a yogurt. So there is a safety. So people, when people see you they hate you, they find you are different, that you taught something which you taught. They don't like it. They don't want to hear it. And gradually, gradually, gradually, it brings them to understanding. So I, my personal request, and on behalf of all those who are coming, I would like you to visit us if you possibly can and... Prabhupāda: Give some prasāda. Yogi Bhajan: And this is... Because this is time of the world where love has to prevail from the higher and from the lower equal. Prabhupāda: Put it here. (Prasāda is distributed; Prabhupāda speaks a bit in Hindi) Yogi Bhajan: All these young people walk into the āśramas, and any time, middle of night, they are always received. That understanding exists anywhere. Nobody has issued them any instructions. But they go with each other very well. Some of our boys who started with us in yoga classes are member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Sometime we get on telephone. I say, "At least, you are somewhere. It's all right. Take care of yourself. Keep up." So life is going on as it has to go on. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Yogi Bhajan: But there is a lot of mutual love, understanding. And after all, this is a discipline. All can't have this discipline. Those who can have it, they can have it. (Hindi) Understanding is there, pralabha is there, will of God is there. God wants us, we are the pawns of it. But it will be a great joy. So I will ask for your leave. It's my pleasure. Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much for your coming. Give him our literature, Back to Godhead. Yogi Bhajan: (Hindi:) Namaskara. And we will, we will get you, receive you, and it will be our privilege. After all, you are our elder. Don't forget that. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Jaya. Yogi Bhajan: And now these people forget sometimes their Hare Rāma, why? (Hindi) (guests are leaving) Thank you very much. (tape continues as guests leave, sound of car driving away, devotees talking in background) Prabhupāda: They are gone? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, they just left. Prabhupāda: This is our or their? *Bali*-mardana: No, that is... from downstairs. Paramahaṁsa: I know one devotee who was a... There was one devotee who was a disciple of him before he came to us. He used to live with Yogi Bhajan about ten years ago in San Francisco. Not ten years ago, about eight, nine years ago in San Francisco. And he said that when he first came, he was a professor from India. But then he associated with the hippies for some time and became a... Prabhupāda: He was Indian? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he's from India. You mean Yogi Bhajan or the devotee? Prabhupāda: No, the devotee. Paramahaṁsa: No, the devotee, I think the devotee is Rāmeśvara. Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: Rāmeśvara used to be (laughs) Yogi Bhajan's disciple. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why he left him? Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Because he, I think because he met you. He was his disciple, and then he became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness afterwards, by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But he said Yogi Bhajan was too much associating with women. Prabhupāda: That is... Paramahaṁsa: Yes. That was the... Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramahaṁsa: Many devotees, they put it in the sun when it becomes dead. Is that all right to tighten the head? (referring to mṛdaṅga) Prabhupāda: (inaudible) Yogi Bhajan... did he come here? Paramahaṁsa: At most eight years, seven or eight years. Prabhupāda: So less than we are. Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yeah. You were here long before he was here. I think he came... 1968 he came. So you came three years before him. I have seen his āśramas in America. I saw one in Arizona. He has quite a large āśrama there. And I saw some of his smaller ones in New Guinea.(?) *Bali*-mardana: I've seen them in Brooklyn, but it was just an apartment. It was not really an āśrama. Paramahaṁsa: They have, in Phoenix, Arizona, they have a very nice place, very large building. Prabhupāda: Where? Paramahaṁsa: Phoenix, Arizona. It's similar to our Los Angeles branch. I think they tried to make... They have buildings, block buildings nearby, apartments for householders. In many ways they are imitating our movement. Prabhupāda: But there is no Deity? *Bali*-mardana: No, they worship the... (end) Morning Walk -- June 8, 1975, Honolulu *Prabhupāda: ...devotees are described as siddha*-sattva-maṇi, siddha-sattva-maṇi. [break] Harikeśa: I haven't listened to it all though. That's why the tapes aren't done. [break] Prabhupāda: ...people, by not believing in the next life, they have dismissed all problems. Very happy life. *Bali*-mardana: They have one saying, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you'll die." Prabhupāda: That's right. Very good civilization. [break]... Aryan civilization. This is not Aryan civilization. Barbarian. [break] A small child, he knows that "I shall become like my elder brother. I shall get this body, next body." And these people, they cannot understand that there is next body. That means their civilization is less than a child's civilization. [break] ...hantara prāptiḥ. *Bali*-mardana: Even every child knows that "When I grow up I will have a different body,"... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: ...but they do not know. Prabhupāda: These people, they do not understand. What kind of civilized men they are? Less than a child, and they are proud of their science. [break] Devotee: They're trying to catch some fish. Paramahaṁsa: What are they doing? Devotee: They're fishing. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee: Crabs. [break] Prabhupāda: ...fisherman. They keep this side open and this side covered. Front side covered, back side open. (end) Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu Śrutakīrti: ...talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dāsī, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that's possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they're not very strict Vaiṣṇavas there. So what is it... Prabhupāda: The land is there. Śrutakīrti: Yes. Prabhupāda: Land is... Just like this land, Vaiṣṇava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture but still the Vaiṣṇavas are there. Similarly, in India, no, there are many Vaiṣṇavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaiṣṇava. Paramahaṁsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brāhmaṇa family? Prabhupāda: No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana. [break] Paramahaṁsa: Those who are not able to maintain the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmatam, śrīmatāṁ śucīnāṁ. Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So śrīmatāṁ, you can get here. Śrīmatam means rich, rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family... But śrīmatāṁ and śucīnāṁ. So if you are creating so many brāhmaṇas, so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many brāhmaṇa family here also. [break] *Śrutakīrti: ...someone had asked me yesterday. You say that the moon is self*-luminous. So then... But during the course of the month there are times when only part of the moon is showing. The moon is not always full. Prabhupāda: Maybe some planet between. Maybe due to sun. So moon is above the sun. Above the sun. Śrutakīrti: Yes. [break] *Bali*-mardana: Yeah, albatross, sea birds. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They call them rain birds. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Rain birds. Prabhupāda: Oh. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They like to stay near the clouds. Prabhupāda: Above the clouds? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Just below the clouds usually. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...Siddhaloka the residents, men, they also can fly. Siddhaloka. They can go from one planet to another by flying. [break] ...eating, they come down, these birds? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Do they come down to eat? Prabhupāda: For eating? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I've never seen them on the ground. I think they might be eating something in the rain. There's actually particles in the rain. Isn't there? Prabhupāda: There is a bird, cataka. They drink rain water. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: The example is given, these cataka birds, they want water from the cloud and they will never come down to take water, take water down. Similarly, devotees will simply depend on Kṛṣṇa. They'll not accept anything from this material world. [break] Example is given that sometimes the cloud, instead of giving water, gives thunderbolt. Still, they will not take water from down. That is a cataka. Although it is... Sometimes they are punished*-instead of water, they are given thunderbolt-but still, they will not take any. *Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was wondering if it was more important to understand the universal make up or simply to accept what Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam says. *Prabhupāda: That means you don't accept Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? *Harikeśa: No. But some of the things in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam are difficult to understand. Prabhupāda: Rascal, fool. Therefore it is difficult for you. Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: You should not... You understand or not understand, you have to accept it. Harikeśa: That is why we are asking so many questions about the moon and the planets. Prabhupāda: Yes, so where is the doubt? It is a fact that they did not go to the moon. That's a fact. Harikeśa: I'm just trying to understand for preaching purposes. Prabhupāda: Why do you try to understand? Harikeśa: Because I have a hard time explaining about the make up of the universe as far as... Prabhupāda: That make up is all right, what they say? Harikeśa: What they say? Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Then don't understand them also, you don't understand here also. Then what you will do? *Siddha*-svarūpa: What it is is that we're automatically taking as authoritative what the scientists say, but we don't think is authoritative what Śrīla Prabhupāda and the Bhāgavata is saying. Harikeśa: Well, the difficulty I was having about this mountain, this Meru. It sounds... It's very difficult to explain that to someone. Prabhupāda: No, no, that is difficult, but everything is difficult for you. Because you want to see. You have not seen their arrangement; neither you have seen our arrangement. So but your proposition is you don't believe what you don't see. You have not seen neither of them, so you have to remain silent. Harikeśa: So the best position is just remain silent until realization comes? Prabhupāda: No. You should... Śukadeva Gosvāmī says. You have to believe that. It is an idea. If you believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. But you can get an idea about the planetary situation. That's all. Neither you can go there; neither you can see it. An idea is given, that is all. But there is no argument. Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Did the people who said they went to the moon, did they go to another planet? Prabhupāda: Yes. Or they did not go anywhere. They were in the desert... What is that? Devotees: Arizona. Prabhupāda: Arizona. That's all. That is possible. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, it's possible. I wouldn't put anything beyond them. Prabhupāda: They are all doing this nonsense here on this planet and showing and advertising that. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, they made big propaganda that they would get there, and then they had to succeed. And then they showed that they succeeded, they stopped the program. Prabhupāda: That one film? Śrutakīrti: Oh, King Kong. (laughter) Prabhupāda: King Kong. It was made in laboratory. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. Harikeśa: Also 2001 was very expertly made like that. There is one movie, 2001, which looked even better than the moon shots. Devotee: Someone was arguing with me that if, like Russia and America both are enemies, if Russia achieves something great like going to the moon, America will immediately try to expose it. But on the contrary, America accepted all those things. And because... Prabhupāda: Then there is also... Both of them are thieves, they have made agreement, "Don't expose me. I'll not expose you." Devotee: So that is their agree... But they are enemies... Prabhupāda: No, no, enemies, they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all. Paramahaṁsa: Because if they tried to expose Russia, they would also expose themselves. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's like these so many gurus. They're not actually enemies. They're actually individually working to exploit the people. And if they get in each other's way, if one person tries to take the other person's followers, then there's some clash or something. But as long they can leave each other alone and don't fight and work independently, exploiting, then they live peacefully. *Bali*-mardana: Honor among thieves. Prabhupāda: "Thief, thief, cousin brother." Cora cora, pasura bhai. So far our position is that we are not concerned with anything with this universe. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇaloka. So whatever one may say, one other may say, we don't care for that. We are not going to the moon planet, Jupiter(?) planet. *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's a danger that we become overly concerned with debating on them. Harikeśa: So our preaching platform should be is that "You don't know." We can say, "You don't know" or "We don't know. Why shouldn't one accept what we say over what you say?" We should just prove that we... Prabhupāda: No, accept or not accept, the whatever is description there, in *Bhāgavatam*, we are accepted. Harikeśa: So we should not try to meet these scientists on any scientific platform? Rather, on... *Siddha*-svarūpa: Why not on the platform of not being the body? Why should you... Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Why not speak on what we're trying to speak about instead of overly indulge in that which is beyond debate actually? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Ask them, "Are you the body?" If they say, "Yes," and then ask them to show how... *Prabhupāda: Just like here in America I have come to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am not interested for sight*-seeing. That is not my business. Whatever you say, "It is here like this," "All right, That's all, finished." Why should we try to confirm it? Whatever you say, that's all right. Now, we are seeing the other part; if somebody there, "It is like this," that's all right. I'm not going to test it. So what is the use of arguing? I have no interest. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The materialists, they want to argue on the platform of material arrangements, and there's... Prabhupāda: That is useless. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: What he will gain by such argument? You are not going there neither you are interested for going to the moon planet. For knowledge sake it is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, and everyone is... Just like when we speak of the hell, everyone is little anxious, "Where are the hell?" So that is described. In the down this universe there are lokas. Harikeśa: So, in other words, it would make no... It would be not a very good program to get some understanding from Vedic astronomy, like, say, some expert Vedic astronomers. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: It would not be a good program...? *Prabhupāda: No, what benefit you will derive there? Your problem is that if at the time of death you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then it is success. We are not going to any other planet. Yānti deva*-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25], let them go. We are not interested in these things. *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's only a certain amount of time and a certain amount of..., that we can talk about to people. And if we're talking about so many material arrangements, then it means that we can't be talking about that which is actually important. So we have to make a choice, whether we're going to get straight to the point or beat around the bush. [break] Prabhupāda: ...no interest in a particular subject, why should you bother your head about it? *Harikeśa: I become very fascinated when I read these descriptions in Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam about the creation and the universal... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That's gist idea of the universal position. That is sufficient. Harikeśa: So, in other words, Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always bringing Mahārāja Parīkṣit to the platform of "Why bother with all of this? Simply perform devotional service"? Prabhupāda: Huh? No, no. He's giving full knowledge of the universal affairs. He also says at the end that "I have described whatever I have heard." That's all. Harikeśa: So we should simply describe it without being concerned that the scientific mind may make sense out of it or not? *Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense scientific? That is... We reject immediately. What is scientific? A tiny brain, what is their science? Phene bare dhake nate ute. A snake catcher... There is a kind of snake which has no poison. So he cannot catch even that non*-poisonous snake, and he's trying to catch one cobra. So these scientists, what is their value? What they have done anything contribution to the world for the benefit of the human society? They could not give any relief from the disease, relief from old age, relief from death or birth. These are the real problems. So what is their contribution? They have given some horseless carriage. Again there is problem of power. What is actually benefit they have done, that this is the benefit from the scientists? Anything they have done, there is counter disadvantage. This is simply waste of time. Our... We consider our human life is very valuable, and before the next death we should prepare ourself go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. We cannot waste a minute time before the next death comes. That is our philosophy. So why should we waste our time, "Where is the moon? Where is sun?" Just have it gist idea, that's all. [break] ...no profit. Suppose the position of the moon is correct according to Bhāgavata or according to the scientist, what benefit we shall get out of it? Whichever may be correct or wrong. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, right. Prabhupāda: We are not getting any profit out of it. So why should we bother about it? Adhara vapare jaj akalara. We are dealing in ginger. Then what is the use of asking, "What is the hire, I mean to say, freight for a big ship?" If you are dealing with ginger, ginger is not sold by tons. When you go to purchase ginger, you take one or two pieces. So those who are dealing in ginger, what is the use of asking what is the fare of a freight ship? We are not going to... *Siddha*-svarūpa: It doesn't have anything to do... [break] Prabhupāda: ...be done by Darwin, that he will live for fifty years; he is giving account millions of years. "Some millions of years after, this evolution takes place like this." Huh? Will he live for millions of years? Why he's talking of millions of years? This is a waste of time. He will live for fifty years or, say, utmost, hundred years, and he's talking of millions of years. Śrutakīrti: Just like that man who wrote the letter yesterday. He's prepared to spend the rest of his life understanding the transfer, the transmigration of the soul instead of just accepting it in the *Gītā*. He's going to spend his whole life. *Prabhupāda: No, no. His non*-acceptance means he's a rascal. He's a rascal. He may waste his time in that way. What can be done? His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. It's evident. Anyone knows that "After this, I will get another body." You are all young men. You know that you will get after some years a body like me. So what is the difficulty to understand that we are changing body? Paramahaṁsa: So actually it's useless to try to give any more proof other than that. Prabhupāda: That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient. Paramahaṁsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Kṛṣṇa conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul? Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Not necessary. Paramahaṁsa: Better if he just... Prabhupāda: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Kṛṣṇa. Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact? Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove... Prabhupāda: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them. Harikeśa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees. Prabhupāda: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit. Harikeśa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit? Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: The findings? They are going to... Prabhupāda: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform but he does not know what is soul. *Siddha*-svarūpa: What are these experiments? Harikeśa: They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy... Prabhupāda: The psychology is on the mental platform. Harikeśa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform? Harikeśa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are... Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that? Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous. Śrutakīrti: They're probably getting some money for doing it. Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions. Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to? Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to. Prabhupāda: Forced? Harikeśa: Yes. Śrutakīrti: They're probably being paid. Upendra: This is referring to that, in that transcendental meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the transcendental meditation. Harikeśa: But actually, that's not true because some... Prabhupāda: That transcendental meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than transcendental meditation. Harikeśa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant and the test goes up. Upendra: No, but this is... Dharmādhyakṣa was... He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the transcendental meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dharmādhyakṣa, at least, and Guru dāsa said so I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet. *Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato, bahiḥ. These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand anything spiritual. Harikeśa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them. Prabhupāda: What...? What you...? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane. *Prabhupāda: Their position is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. These rascals, avajānanti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Kṛṣṇa, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is also a very big man, that's all." Just the Arya Samaji says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the Bhagavad..., avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto [Bg. 9.11]. The paraṁ bhāvam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual..., that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avāṅ mānasa-gocara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand. Harikeśa: So we shouldn't bother with such tests? Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: By submitting to them we're actually... We're endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual. Prabhupāda: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?" Harikeśa: This psychologist has become a devotee. Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing. Harikeśa: But still he wants to try and prove Kṛṣṇa consciousness through this psychological testing. Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible. *Bali*-mardana: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul. Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good. *Bali*-mardana: That is what they are studying. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul... Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyakṣa, parakṣa, aparakṣa, adhokṣaja, aprakṛta. So aprakṛta is this platform of the soul. Kṛṣṇa's activities, that is aprakṛta, completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, pratyakṣa. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is pratyakṣa. Then aparakṣa, accepting the authority's version. Pratyakṣa, parakṣa. Then aparakṣa, then adhokṣaja, beyond your mental speculation. Then aprakṛta, spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Kṛṣṇa is understood not by machine. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: [Bg. 18.55] "Through devotion only." So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity. Harikeśa: So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind. Prabhupāda: No, consciousness means... That is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform, bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual consciousness. Harikeśa: So there is no way they can understand. No way. Prabhupāda: How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul? That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that's all. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And they see whether or not the mind is moving like this or like this or like this or like that, and then they have a gauge which says, "This is perfect." So they're seeing... They're judging whether or not... *Prabhupāda: But we say, "Any position on the mental platform, it is all nonsense." Mano*-rathena sato dhavato bahiḥ. Harikeśa: So the mind of a devotee is based on the activities of his spiritual practices. Prabhupāda: Mind of a devotee is upon Kṛṣṇa. So what they will understand, that mind is in Kṛṣṇa? What they will understand? Harikeśa: So according to different transcendental emotions, the mind will be agitated or calm or...? Prabhupāda: It is not mind. It is spirit soul. You also do not understand. Harikeśa: That's a fact. Prabhupāda: Spiritual platform is different. But the spiritual activities expressed through mind, through body, through intelligence. That's it. Harikeśa: Yes. So that will bewilder them, this expression. Prabhupāda: Huh? Harikeśa: This expression through the..., it will bewilder them. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: See, the materialist is seeing that everyone is agitated, so the goal in their life is cessation of that agitation. They want to merge or cease their existence. They want to go into nothingness. So... Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their... *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...this is what they're looking for. The transcendental meditator goes in so that the gauge doesn't make any motion. But a rock, if you put that same gauge on a rock it also doesn't make motion. Does that mean the rock is spiritual or that he's more advanced than someone else? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: You see? They're saying that perfection is no motion. They're saying that perfection is inactivity. So they already have in their mind what they think is perfect, and then they're going to see if this method helps a person to achieve calmness or whatever they're calling perfection. Prabhupāda: That is that Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa, stop all activities. Buddha philosophy. Harikeśa: So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Harikeśa: Because they are bewildered-they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered*-they will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Harikeśa: Therefore we can make the devotees through this...? *Siddha*-svarūpa: But they're bewildered already. They don't need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. (laughs) Harikeśa: But they don't think they're bewildered, so that's the difference. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they're bewildered. They may make the conclusion... Harikeśa: No, they even admit they're bewildered. Prabhupāda: The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, "Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?" So he answered, "First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave." (laughter) So... Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda... *Prabhupāda: They are not on the spiritual platform, so all their studies are useless. They are studying with a pre*-concept idea. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right. So that when you don't fit into their preconceived idea... Prabhupāda: It is called, in logic it is called prititio principia(?). So it is useless. Paramahaṁsa: In our movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book? Prabhupāda: Huh? Paramahaṁsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or...? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory. Paramahaṁsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment? Prabhupāda: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: We don't need to make experiments. Harikeśa: They can make these little amoebas but they can't make ants. Prabhupāda: Amoebas, that is automatically... By perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: udbija, jarayuja, svedaja, and, what is other? Andaja. Andaja means life comes from the egg. That is called andaja. And life comes from, under certain circumstances... Just like trees, grass. It is called udbija. And then jarayaja, just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And svedaja. And some living entities come out from perspiration. Harikeśa: So they were saying in this experiment they made that they completely... Prabhupāda: Four kinds of generating process is there. So what they have studied? That germs come out perspiration, that is already accepted in the *Vedas*. Under certain circumstances the germs come by, what is called? Scientific name? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't know. Prabhupāda: Just like bugs, bed bugs. Due to your perspiration of the body, the bed being unclean, they come. Harikeśa: So the capability was already there in like seed, and you just watered it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Harikeśa: So when they said they created life in this laboratory experiment, the capability... Prabhupāda: But that also they cannot do. That also they cannot do. Harikeśa: But the capability was there and they just watered it. They... Prabhupāda: What is the capability? Harikeśa: There was one of these four circumstances for life in that test... Prabhupāda: Potency, that is potency. Harikeśa: Yeah. And they just made the circumstance proper so that life came. Prabhupāda: Yes. Harikeśa: That is their big thing on the path to becoming God. Prabhupāda: For the time being, let them be kicked by the God's servant, that's all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That's all. Harikeśa: Actually the whole field of psychology is going towards yoga. Prabhupāda: Yoga? Harikeśa: Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time. Devotee: This way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The car is here. Śrutakīrti: The car is... Harikeśa: So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kīrtana for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Just see. Harikeśa: And they said, "Oh, this is the best process. Because this is joyful realization." They said, "You people really have something here." Prabhupāda: So in that way, if they understand, that is good. Harikeśa: That seemed to be the only way they'll understand. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So that's more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs. Harikeśa: Also they loved prasādam. Prabhupāda: No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying saṅkīrtana. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, "How the hippies they have given up everything and they're enjoying saṅkīrtana?" That is already their problem, another, that "There must be something." Therefore these big, big professors study. [break] *Harikeśa: ...one place in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta where Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja says that "You mental speculators, put your speculation to Caitanya Mahāprabhu." He says something like that. If you were to speculate, speculate about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the greatness of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Prabhupāda: I don't think there is anything. Harikeśa: Maybe I'm misquoting. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Not mental specu..., analyze. Harikeśa: Analyze? *Prabhupāda: Caitanyer dayār kathā kara vicāra: "Just analyze the merciful contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu with others." That you have already experienced, that they experimented in so many ways, but as soon as they come to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, saṅkīrtana, they become immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest thing." So that is vicāra, judgement. Caitanyer dayār kathā. There are many contribution of the world, many scientists, many physiologists, many... But Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, "Compare with the contribution of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then you will be surprised." Oh! Just like they became surprised, immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest." That is stated by Kavirāja Gosvāmī, that "The merciful contribution given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu*-compare with any other contribution of the world, scientist, physiologist and this and that. You will see this is the best." Caitanyer dayār kathā karaha vicāra. [break] (Prabhupāda talking with someone in Bengali about different types of dahl) [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...experiments that these... I know of the experiments that these men are doing. They're connected... They have gone to the Buddhists. They've gone to Buddhist monks and various people that are into voidism, and they've made these tests, and it comes out that there's no activity. So they're seeing this as being the goal. They're trying to see if the same perfection, result of perfection, is achieved by the chanting. They already have a preconceived notion of what perfection is, and if they're testing to see if... Prabhupāda: To that standard. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, if we're up to that standard of perfection of the Buddhist monks or the Zen monks or transcendental meditators or whatever. So I think it's a very bad thing to take part in that thing. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Because they'll simply try to... Anyway, it's... [break] Sometimes because these people have big titles like psychologist or professor and they have many machines and authoritative looking instruments, we become deceived into thinking that they are authorities of some sort, and we let them dictate to us. [break] Prabhupāda: ...do not study that why these devotees have given up intoxication, which the government failed to stop? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is practical. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, it's an easy enough thing to study. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's an easy thing to study, simple. Prabhupāda: Why these devotee, they have given up intoxication? Apart from other items, the government, especially in U.S.A., they are spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication, L.S.D. So why they have failed? And why Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has become successful? What is the psychology? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It seems that these people don't know how to be simple. Prabhupāda: Well, they no spiritual information. That is the... Therefore the first education is to understand what is spirit. Then spiritual knowledge is... They do not know what is spirit. [break] ...imāni bhūtāni bhavanti. That is spirit, the original source of everything. This body, original source is the spirit. As soon as the spirit is not there, the body will not grow. They are seeing actually. Therefore the original source is the spirit. Why the dead child does not grow? Or dead young man does not grow? They have not studied still, what is the cause? If it is chemical, then inject some chemical, if you know it, and make it grow. Is there any... Why they cannot do it? Why do they say it is chemical? Chemical you have got in your possession. So inject the dead child and it will grow, then it is correct. And where is that? Simply bogus propaganda. And we have to accept it? Either they must say that "Yes, it is chemical, but we did not find that chemical." *Siddha*-svarūpa: So they have to admit their failure. Prabhupāda: Huh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: So that means they're not sure it's a chemical. Prabhupāda: Then? *Siddha*-svarūpa: If they say they haven't found it, they have to admit that they're not sure. Prabhupāda: Why do they not inject chemical in the dead body? Harikeśa? What is their answer, these rascals' answers? If they know it is out of chemical, then inject that chemical in the dead body and let him come back again in life. What do they say? Harikeśa: They're a little puzzled about that one. Prabhupāda: Puzzled means they are rascals. Why a scientist should be puzzled? Then you are rascal, admit it. If I know my business correct, why shall I be puzzled? That means rascal. You are rascal, and you are theorizing only. What is the value of your statement? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, the chemicals are already there in a body which has just, someone has just left the body, the soul has just left, all the chemicals are there. There's nothing missing. Harikeśa: Well, they will say there's a slight difference and that slight difference is enough. Prabhupāda: But you do not know what is that slight difference. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It is a slight difference. The soul is missing. (laughs) Prabhupāda: If the chemical is missing you can replace the chemical. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . Right. Do they say it's a slight difference in chemical composition? Harikeśa: Yes, there's just a slight difference with some of the chemicals... Prabhupāda: What is that difference? That also you cannot explain. *Siddha*-svarūpa: What is the difference? Do they know? Or do they say they know? Harikeśa: Well they haven't found it yet. Prabhupāda: Well, that's it still they are talking of chemical... They did not find what is the original cause; still, they are suggesting this is the cause. Harikeśa: Because they are finding so many cures to diseases, they are trying now... Prabhupāda: What the disease? What they have...? Have they found any cure for the cancer? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Cancer? Harikeśa: For certain diseases they are... Prabhupāda: Certain diseases. Then we are calling of disease. Ambarīṣa: There's always new diseases though. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That's the whole thing. Like cancer is a new disease. Ambarīṣa: For every old disease they find a cure for, there are..., a new disease. Prabhupāda: No cure. They simply find out... They say, "It is better medicine," but it is not cured. What disease they have cured? What... Name particular disease, "This disease is cured." Harikeśa: Well, they have some smallpox vaccine, and no one gets smallpox any more. Prabhupāda: Yes, does it mean smallpox is stopped all over the world? Harikeśa: It's very much cut down. There's hardly any smallpox... Prabhupāda: Very much cut down, but it's very much increasing in another side. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, no, they have smallpox. Harikeśa: In America there's no smallpox. So that means here... Prabhupāda: That is all right. It is due to poverty, uncleanliness. So that is known to everyone. The smallpox takes place amongst the poorer class, unclean class. In India also, that is there. No gentleman's house, there is smallpox. Only these lower class, unclean. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Where there's no facility for sanitation... Prabhupāda: If you remain unclean, all diseases will come. Where is the cure? Harikeśa: They also have this thing where they're freezing bodies just before they die. Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. Harikeśa: Later on, they will unthaw them... Prabhupāda: Later on. Harikeśa: ...when they find the cure and cure it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They promised that man? (laughs) So they are doing good for that person? *Prabhupāda: Everything, "Later on. Wait. Take this post*-dated check." "And where is money, sir?" "Wait. You have got the check. That's all right." *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are making promises. Devotee: The scientists who are saying that they're going to do this, they'll be also in the same position after some years. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Right, they're promising this person they freezed that "We will thaw you out later," but they cannot even promise themself that they won't die that night in a car accident or die from some disease themselves. So how can they promise that "In a while we will thaw you out"? They're simply cheating the people. Prabhupāda: Why it is congested today? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, we came a little late, it's rush hour. All the people that live on that side of the island work on that side of the island. So they have to drive over every morning. And we happened to get the work hour traffic because we left a little late. Harikeśa: They are turning Hawaii into New York City. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, they're making it very difficult. They're going to develop this entire side of the island more and more, and so that they're taking agriculture land, and they'll be building subdivisions and people from the mainland will be moving, living in condominiums on this island. Prabhupāda: That means for one convenience, they create another inconvenience. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the business. In this way they will take three hours to go to the other side. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Uh, not three hours, but it'll... [break] Prabhupāda: ...photo must be there. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, here's his, his photograph is also on this round bucket. He puts his photograph on the bucket. Prabhupāda: He has become a very big man. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: By killing chickens. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. He actually is beginning to look like a chicken, his face. He's actually starting to look like a chicken. Ambarīṣa: He claims he is a very religious man too. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is the sample of religious man. And what is irreligious? If the religious men kill so many chickens daily, then what is the irreligious man do? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They're vegetarians. (laughs) Prabhupāda: He kills the chicken and fry it in oil. And that is sold. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Big money. They... Ambarīṣa: He's also very involved in politics. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? He's a politician also? Ambarīṣa: Yeah. At the Democratic convention he supplies all the politicians with unlimited fried chicken. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (laughter) [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: He also sells, I think. But this other chain of restaurants, McDonald's, they are very proud. They announce how many hamburgers they have sold. They have branches everywhere in the world. Prabhupāda: Hamburger means? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Uh, that's beef. They kill the cows in a unbelievable, at an unbelievable rate, the number of cows they're killing for their meat. Prabhupāda: [break] ...up? No? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I'm not sure. Devotee: I think up to now they have sold 200,000,000 hamburgers or something like that. Prabhupāda: You also keep account? Devotee: No, they put that ad in every day. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They put in a newspaper. Ambarīṣa: You can't avoid seeing it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, they are always telling you. Devotee: In front of their shop it's always there. *Siddha*-svarūpa: "We have killed this many." They are also trying to connect themselves with patriotism and religion. They have, at all of their restaurants, they have the American flag flying along with the McDonald's flag. They have their own flag, McDonald's. So they fly alongside the American flag. [break] Ambarīṣa: I heard once that human beings in the modes of goodness were coming from the cow family or from the cows mostly? If there are so many cows being killed, why aren't there more people in the modes of goodness? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Now, after the... There are three sources: cow, monkey, and lion. This is the last animal life. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Okay, now park here. Prabhupāda: Why not go a little... *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's a beach park right up there. Prabhupāda: Yes, beach park. Oh, you have to stop. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The... [break] Prabhupāda: ...cow which is killed, that does not get immediately human life because he is untimely killed. Ambarīṣa: Oh. So he takes birth as a cow again? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...finish his birth as cow, and who is killing, he becomes... He is stopping his progress, therefore he is punishable. Just like you have leased one apartment to live for so many years, and if somebody, by force, kicks out, then he is punishable. [break] Devotee: ...Kamehameha Day, today? *Bali*-mardana: Today is a Holiday. [break] Prabhupāda: Here, for chanting? A good hall? [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: This is the buildings where all the... [break] They don't have any crocodiles here. Paramahaṁsa: Is that a shark? That big fish... See that big fish, Prabhupāda? That big one on the wall? He is hanging? Prabhupāda: Oh, he is dead? Paramahaṁsa: Yes, dead fish. That's a shark. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...they're kept for sale? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, no. It's a very strange thing. They just show everybody. They capture them and show everybody what they look like. The public pays 25 cents to go see what it looks like. [break] Prabhupāda: For aircraft killing? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Maybe. I don't think it's that bad in... [break] *Bali*-mardana: It's a war memorial. Prabhupāda: Oh. American or enemy's captured? *Bali*-mardana: It looks like American artillery. *Siddha*-svarūpa: When I was a young boy, we would play with my friends. We would stand on this and try to knock each other off, push each other off the cannon. Prabhupāda: It can be... No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, it doesn't swing around. Prabhupāda: It is from the last world war? [break] ...far it goes? *Bali*-mardana: About ten miles. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...such cannons are meant for killing aircraft. [break] ...London blitz, blitz, they were attacking from aircraft and from ground also, simultaneously. [break] ...beginning, they were conquering over Belgium and neighboring... Morning, one country, and evening, one country. *Bali*-mardana: Blitzkrieg. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is the name of somebody? *Siddha*-svarūpa: There was a queen named Queen Kapilani. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...Hawaiian queen? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] No. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The Philippinos mostly eat dogs. Prabhupāda: He said, Govinda dāsī. *Siddha*-svarūpa: . Who? Prabhupāda: Govinda dāsī. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't think she knows the difference between Hawaiians and Philippinos. Prabhupāda: Oh, there are Philippines here? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, there are many. *Bali*-mardana: They imported them to work in the plantations. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Śrutakīrti: That was the sound of peacocks. Prabhupāda: Where? Śrutakīrti: Just over here somewhere. Devotee: That's a zoo over there. *Bali*-mardana: There is a zoo. They have many peacocks who roam around. [break] Prabhupāda: [break] ...on the pathway there was sometimes tree. They do not cut it. [break] ...very rare there. It is dried firmly? It is dried up? Devotee: Not all of them. Little bit dried and like that. So sometimes one of those, Kanva and other devotees, have been suggesting to put fruit trees instead of this kind of trees. Can we cut them? Prabhupāda: No. Devotee: No, we should not. [break] Prabhupāda: ...it is absolutely necessary. [break] ...develop. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Hawaii, yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The Hawaiians could never develop. They didn't want development. Prabhupāda: Oh. Now they are still here or they have left? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are here, but they've mixed up with other races. There's many mixture in races. And most of the local people who live here, they're a mixture of Hawaiian, Japanese... [break] Prabhupāda: Then everything will go on nice. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, the people will have someone to look up to at least. They'll know which way to go. [break] Prabhupāda: ...rogues. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, and so then they become, the people become very frustrated because the leaders they're trying to look up to, they find out they're crooks, and it ruins their... [break] Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right. [break] These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post. Formerly, Vedic, the king was trained up very nicely by the brāhmaṇas, guided by the brāhmaṇas, and they would do nicely. [break] ...now thousands of kings. The president, the secretary, the minister, this senator, everyone is king. Because everyone is in the business of exploitation. That's all. Formerly there was one king. Now, in the name of democracy, there are thousands of kings. And the poor citizens, they have to satisfy all of them. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have to... Prabhupāda: This is the position. [break] ...not making kachori? *Bali*-mardana: You have not asked for it. Prabhupāda: Well, I have to ask for it? [break] Prabhupāda: ...planet with so many oceans and mountains, that is floating in the air. The whole thing is working. And these rascals want to compete with Kṛṣṇa. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: One... Prabhupāda: He believed in God. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. And he had made a replica. He had made a small replica of the universe with all the planets floating and so on. He had made a small replica, and it was sitting in his house. And his assistant came one day, his atheist assistant, he came and he says, "Oh, who has made this wonderful replica of the universe?" And Sir Isaac Newton, who was sitting there reading, he says, "Oh, no one." And the man said, "What do you mean no one?" He says... He didn't look up. He just says, "No one made it." And he kept reading and the guy, the assistant, the atheist, he became very perturbed. He kept saying, "What do you mean, you fool? Obviously somebody made it. He must have great intelligence, and I'd like to meet the fellow who created this." And Sir Isaac Newton put down his book and says, "My friend, this is but a small replica of the universe, and you're the one who is always declaring that no one has created the universe. And now you're declaring to me that somebody must have created that. I'm saying it just happened, but you don't believe me. So how can I accept your logic when you say that all of this just happened?" [break] Prabhupāda: ...temple is very nice. [break] ...is also very nice. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...lunch time. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] ...the location also. That's a very good location they have, on the main road. Prabhupāda: Japanese? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...injunction, apāṇi*-pado javano grahīta, is, "He, the God, has no leg, no hand, but He accepts gift." "Accepts gift," means He has got hand, but why it is said, "No leg, no hand"? That means He has no material hand and leg. He has His hands and legs, but that is spiritual. That is the meaning. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His body is made of spiritual eternity... This body is not eternal. But God has got His eternal body. There is no question of God's becoming old. Because His body is eternal. It is the material body which is not eternal. That is subjected to old age, disease, birth, death. What is this big house? [break] ...stated that he came to cheat the atheists. They did not believe in God, but God came as Buddha. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: And he said, "Yes, you are right. There is no God." *Siddha*-svarūpa: "Worship me." (laughs) Yes, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that. [break] Prabhupāda: They were satisfied, "Yes, we shall worship you." [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: The so-called more advanced ones, the teachers, the leaders, the monks, they have a more difficult time because they are, have actually further studied the impersonalist philosophies, so they are more contaminated, whereas the congregation in general, they just, they don't take very seriously the philosophy. They don't get too deeply into it, I don't think. They just like to go to the temple and offer some incense to Lord Buddha and... [break] ...Govinda Restaurant, hungry... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...chanting, dancing. So this will rectify his philosophy. Chanting is so strong, it will send all philosophy to hell. (laughter) Vijāyate śrī*-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. [break] You will come out triumphant of all others. [break] ...that is happening. What we are doing? We are not playing any magic. How this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is increasing? Devotee: Yesterday I read in the newspaper that Indira Gandhi has been asked to step down from the prime ministership. Prabhupāda: I heard it. Where is that paper? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, so this morning you get a paper, okay? Devotee: I'll try to get a paper. [break] Prabhupāda: ...body comes in her place he will be another. Devotee: Yes. [break] ...to step down, she's going to defy the court order. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They never want to step down. Prabhupāda: Like Nixon, like Nixon. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are junk tours from Japan. [break] ...finding security in his radio. Prabhupāda: What is that security? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's false security. [break] *Prabhupāda: And there was no necessity. Still, we shall go. It is very pleasant. [break] One umbrella, if you push, it will open, and if you push down, it will come back. Machine. [break] ...mantra is described in the śāstra just like a potential medicine. If you take it, either you know it or not know it, it will act. And another example is given. Just like fire. If one, the father knows, "This is fire," and throws to the grass, it will be burned. Similarly, if a child*-he does not know what it is-if he throws, then that will also burn. [break] Ambarīṣa: I won't become become involved in any other project besides Kurukṣetra? Just Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: No, no. Ambarīṣa: Jaya, okay. Not even New York. Prabhupāda: New York is still doubtful. Ambarīṣa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: But that's a good house, New York? Ambarīṣa: The one that they have or the one that they're trying to buy? [break] Prabhupāda: They are trying to buy. Did he send them letter by lawyer? Ambarīṣa: No, I haven't... No, my lawyer called... [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, the surf is no good today. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...another duplicate Pacific? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't think so. Prabhupāda: Is it not possible? *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, but they're trying to ruin the one that already exists. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That also not possible. [break] ...let them drop this atom bomb and ruin it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Break it, yeah? They will break it. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ship? What is that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's a buoy. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Is there any fruit? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, there's a fruit. It's fairly nice, but... Prabhupāda: [break] ...date. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yeah, the birds... [break] Prabhupāda: ...is very nice. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Oh. [break] Prabhupāda: ...movement, then that is nice. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, They, the mystic yogis... [break] ...Cambodia and Vietnam. Now Cambodia and Vietnam are fighting. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Why? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Over the oil on the offshore. There is offshore oil. The oil that the United Stated wanted. Now these two are fighting off some islands that are... There's a wars... Wars are... [break] Prabhupāda: Simply rogues. [break] There is light engaged. [break] They understood. Because when Kaṁsa was baffled in killing the children of his sister, he regretted that "I have killed so many children of you, my dear sister. I am awaiting the most abominable hellish conditions." He admitted. [break] Ambarīṣa: ...don't know what good and bad is. They think if you don't kill anybody that you will go to heaven. I mean any human being. *Siddha*-svarūpa: But they think that this is only one? They do accept that there's life after this life and that they will live either in heavenly planets... Prabhupāda: Otherwise what is the meaning of going to God? They believe it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: What is, the Bible says, "Come to kingdom of God"? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So if you have no next life, how you are going to there? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. They accept another life. Prabhupāda: Then that is... Another life means soul. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: They have no clear knowledge. That is their... [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are called Mormons. They have very big temples. They build very big temples still. Prabhupāda: Oh. Is there any Deity? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They don't let anyone in the temple. It is for secret membership... It is for the... Only if you become a secret member or something. I do not know what they have in there. I think what they have in there is copies of their scripture that were on golden... Ambarīṣa: Book of Mormon. *Siddha*-svarūpa: The book of Mormon is written on golden plates. Ambarīṣa: They have a gold Jesus deity. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They do. They worship Jesus. But they clearly accept that one, that the person is separate from his body, the soul is different than the body, that we are not flesh, that we are spirit. Ambarīṣa: They have very strict disciplines too. *Siddha*-svarūpa: And they accept that God is a person, that Jesus is the son of the Supreme Person. They even use the word, "Supreme Person, Supreme Personality." So in that way they are in conflict with... Prabhupāda: That God is separate from Jesus? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that He is the father of Jesus. They make long arguments to show their point, that God is one with Jesus as father and son, not as two persons the same person. And they also have fairly strict... They have strict principles, but the people don't follow them very well. Ambarīṣa: A lot of the young people do. Like I live around Salt Lake, and there's a lot of Mormons there and there's a lot that... [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...we can become creators of a universe and be in charge of our own universe. They are hopeful for that. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...in Bhāgavata also that after passing one hundred life of first*-class karmī one can become Brahmā. And after becoming Brahmā, he goes directly back to home, back to Godhead. [break] ...this dissolution, Brahmā hasn't got to die. By the same body he goes. [break] All the inhabitants of Brahmaloka they also go with Brahmā. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...have sex outside of marriage, any of these activities. And they're not supposed to eat meat unless it's in time of famine or absolute necessity. They have a whole city. It's called Salt Lake City in Utaḥ that's all practically their followers. [break] Ambarīṣa: In Salt Lake City they don't have bars. *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's no bars in the city of Salt Lake. There's no drinking establishments or pornographic movies and these things. Prabhupāda: So when they started? *Siddha*-svarūpa: About 150 years ago or 125 years ago I believe. Isn't it? A hundred years ago. Ambarīṣa: I don't know when they found those documents. A lot of them are still secret. They won't... A lot of them are like books about what's going to happen in the future, and they keep them somewhere. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...system of having more than one wife, that a holy person or religious man had the duty to take on and give protection to more than one woman because there weren't enough righteous men and there were more women that needed protection than there were righteous men. So if there was a righteous man, it was his duty to protect more than one wife. But nowadays I think they are having some trouble keeping that in the United States. That is one thing the Christians became very... [break] Prabhupāda: ...preach. Devotee: Yes, that's... [break] *Ambarīṣa: Bali and I were discussing that the other day. Bali*-mardana and I. Maybe when I come back here to live, maybe after Christmas, he and I, we'll see if we can work out... He knows some people that are in the movie business. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Which actors? Prabhupāda: Actors, we shall play. They haven't got to pay for us. *Ambarīṣa: He was thinking also maybe to make it an epic picture of Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Siddha*-svarūpa: That would be most popular, I believe. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa*-līlā also. That will be also popular. From Bhāgavatam we can have so many. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Endless. Ambarīṣa: They could be run on T.V. too. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Have a series. [break] ...not to continue or make any impression. And that will necessitate very good acting, not slapstick comedy. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...not professional. [break] ...men can be trained up-that is possible*-to play. We require professional director. Money may be spent by the movie company. And we give our men an idea. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...always looking for new movies, new ideas, the companies. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Ambarīṣa: 'Cause they have made many great religious pictures, big epics about Jesus and stuff like that. So maybe they would be open to the idea of doing the Bhagavad*-gītā. That would be nice. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: I mentioned to you something about making a movie of Bhagavad-gītā. You said it would be very difficult to find fifty thousand elephants. (laughs) There will be some... [break] ...Kṛṣṇa-līlā will be easier. He can be fighting one demon or dancing with the gopīs. Bhagavad-gītā is... [break] Prabhupāda: ...do not understand the existence of soul, then why do they say, "My head, my hand"? Why not say, "I head." What is their answer? Why do you say, "My head"? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have no answer. [break] ...very much to know about this. Prabhupāda: That is the folly. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Their desire is to enjoy the world and have religion to help them. Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion. Unless one understands, then he does not understand the transmigration of the soul. (end) Morning Walk -- June 16, 1975, Honolulu Devotee (1): Yes, we have jackfruit. Big fruit. *Bali*-mardana: They do not know how to eat it mostly. Prabhupāda: Bring. I shall show you. (laughter) Yes. *Bali*-mardana: I have seen them selling sometime in private market, but I don't know if we can get it in the public market. Devotee (1): I've never seen it in a public market. *Bali*-mardana: They do... [break] ...sell it. [break] Prabhupāda: You can have some jackfruit tree. Devotee (1): On the land, on the property. Okay. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] ...nutritive and very sweet. Devotee (1): Very sweet. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. When it is ripe, it is very sweet. And when it is not ripe, it is called "vegetable meat." Devotee: "Tree goat." Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...prepare, it is better than meat. Devotee (1): [break] ...the seeds. Prabhupāda: Yes, big, big seeds. That is also very digestive. If you make it powder, it acts like, what is called, pancreas. *Bali*-mardana: I think you once told a story about an Englishman who wanted to taste jackfruit. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...tree, jam. It is berry, but blue. Devotee (1): They call it java plum. It's a very... It's bitter fruit? Is it very bitter? Prabhupāda: Not bitter. It is sour, little sour. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They makes a blue stain? Prabhupāda: Yes. You have got? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Many here, yes. Prabhupāda: That's very good. That is very good for diabetic patient. Devotee (1): Should we plant one on the land too? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] It is called... Devotee (2): Kalajam? *Prabhupāda: Kalajam, yes. [break]... is good medicine for diabetes. [break] ...houses are all fire*-proof, eh? Devotee (1): That's what they say, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Siddha*-svarūpa: No, they're not fire-proof. Prabhupāda: No, they are concrete. There is no frame work. *Bali*-mardana: . There is no wood. Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Then how is it they had a fire in one? They had a fire in one recently. *Bali*-mardana: Sometimes a fire starts in the kitchen or... Prabhupāda: Kitchen, yes. *Bali*-mardana: Because there's gas. And the furniture... Prabhupāda: Not in the house. Wooden houses, they are just like match box. [break] ...Australia, they like cottage house. They don't like this skyscraper. *Bali*-mardana: Yeah, they like brick house, many brick houses, spread out. Prabhupāda: Small, one storied. They are aristocratic. They do not go to the skyscraper, common man. *Bali*-mardana: They like the idea of one house. Prabhupāda: That is good idea. That is Indian idea. [break] Devotee (2): ...front of the hedges, all those hedges in the front? They produce this flower. Prabhupāda: Very nice. Very good. Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. As soon as such fragrance, one should remember Kṛṣṇa: "This is Kṛṣṇa." Puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. [break] Where is that scientist? Just like from the earth we are getting so many varieties of flavor and taste. The fruits are different taste, the flowers different fragrance, but wherefrom it is coming? From the earth. So why the scientists do not take all these things from the earth? *Bali*-mardana: All they do is create smog. Kṛṣṇa creates fragrant flowers. Prabhupāda: No, smog is also created by Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. I mean to say in the ground everything is there, the flavor. *Siddha*-svarūpa: So why they can't put it together? Prabhupāda: No, why they cannot, by scientific, chemical or physical way, they cannot take the flavor from the earth? *Bali*-mardana: They do make synthetic scents. Prabhupāda: No. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They come out synthetic, though, they do not smell the same. *Bali*-mardana: Not as good. Ambarīṣa: Actually they make perfumes from flowers. Prabhupāda: Flowers, yes. That is... But not you take some dirt and extract the flavor. Then I will know that you are scientist. (laughter) [break] ...the vast water, but they cannot make it sweet. That you will have to depend on God. The water is, actually is taken, and it is made sweet. So how they can deny the hand of God? Harikeśa: They have some water distillation plants now. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. He may distill one pound of water. That does not mean that... Why they are unnecessarily proud and denying the authority of God? How foolish they are. Therefore I don't like them, the most heinous type of atheist, not gentlemen. [break] Whenever they hold some conference they say, "Don't talk of God. Then you cannot come to the conference." Do they not? What is that principle? *Bali*-mardana: Yes, yes, they do that. There was a conference on biology and evolution, and they made a rule at the beginning of the conference that "Whatever we discuss from now on is all right except that we will not discuss about God or anything, any divine factor of creation. Prabhupāda: Just see how much atheist they are. Shameless atheist. Other atheists, they have got some shame. But these people are shameless. Shameless. *Bali*-mardana: "Because we cannot see God in our laboratory, therefore we will not discuss Him." Prabhupāda: But why do you teach us? We do not see whatever you say. We do not, so why do you place upon us? If seeing is evidence, then we don't see what nonsense you are talking. *Siddha*-svarūpa: We don't see their atoms. We don't see their sputniks flying and landing or anything. Prabhupāda: Why do you talk? *Bali*-mardana: They want to put themselves in the place of the supreme authority. Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. If that is your reason, that you don't see God, but we don't see that you are going to the moon planet. Why you make us believe that you are going to moon planet? Harikeśa: They might also say that we don't have the eyes to see the atoms and things like that. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then you take our formula. Why do you expect to see God with your eyes? That means they are shameless atheist. Other atheists, they have got little shame, but these people have no shame even. [break] ...ādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind. māyayāpahṛta*-jñānā. [break] Where? The zoo? *Bali*-mardana: They roam about freely. It's over there. *Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana there are many. [break] ...kokila*-haṁsa-sārasa-gaṇākīrṇe mayurākūle nānā-ratna-nibaddha-śrī-yukta-vṛndāvane. [break] ...kṛṣṇam a... *Harikeśa: Ahar*-niśam? *Prabhupāda: Rādhā*-kṛṣṇam ahar-niśam... Yes. Ahar-niśaṁ bhajatau... Hmm? What is the next? *Harikeśa: Jīvārthau mudā... Rādhā*-kṛṣṇam ahar-niśam... *Prabhupāda: ...bhajatau... kīrṇe mayurākūle, nānā*-ratna-nibaddha-śreṇī-śrī-yukta-vṛndāvane, rādhā-kṛṣṇam ahar-niśaṁ bhajatau... Harikeśa: ...prabhajatau. *Prabhupāda: Vande rūpa*-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. [break] ...mountains are creation of volcanic eruption? *Bali*-mardana: Yes. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...crater there. Inside there is a crater. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...problem is, at the present moment, they have exhausted all their intellect. Now they are finding out how to bluff the people and maintain themselves. That is their problem. Yes. *Bali*-mardana: Yes. The people have lost faith in the science because they have not produced anything. Prabhupāda: That is the problem. Because they have cheated people for so many years and drawn high salaries, now they are finding out: "How to cheat these rascals and continue our business?" This is the problem. Because they have nothing to research. Everything, whatever, are finished. And all failure. Simply big, big words, that's all. Word jugglery, that's all. They could not do anything. What exactly they have done, something which is not done by God? They competition with God, so what they have done? What is their contribution? *Bali*-mardana: Only negative; nothing positive. [break] ...easier to kill people. Prabhupāda: That's it. That much they have done, yes. [break] ...diverting the attention of the people from going to the moon planet, they are meeting in the sky. So what will benefit we shall derive by their meeting in the sky? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have scientists now that are proposing and they have grants on how to develop a city in outer space or on the moon. They already have it how they're going to send people, how they're going to get their... Prabhupāda: This is another bluff. You see? And these rascals are believing them. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Especially they're making, trying to make people feel that their problems will be solved, that when it gets too bad they'll just be able to go to the moon. So there's no real problem even if you ruin the earth because you can always escape. Prabhupāda: No, no, that mean... What about their moon planet going? That is stopped? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I don't think they're sending any more rockets to the moon. Ambarīṣa: Yes, they're finished now. There's too much litter up there. Prabhupāda: So, useless. *Siddha*-svarūpa: [break] ...a campaign that... Prabhupāda: That will take place. Otherwise, how they will be killed? Ambarīṣa: They're calling it a limited nuclear war. Prabhupāda: They are accumulated so much sinful load that must be killed. That is sure. [break] ...the massacre. That will take place. Harikeśa: The sinless people will survive? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (3): Who is that? Prabhupāda: We. [break] There was an artificial famine in India and I particularly inquired from all devotees whether they have got any problem in this famine. They said, "No, we haven't got." I have taken the statistics. In 1942 the artificial famine created by government... So there were big earthquake in Bihar. At that time one of my godbrother, he was government auditor. So I inquired. In that earthquake only his house was saved. I have seen it many times. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati [Bg. 9.31]. That is the only.... *Siddha*-svarūpa: The Japanese didn't have any atom bombs to send back, though. Prabhupāda: No. It was in possession of Hitler. And your American stolen and kept it. Hitler wanted to use it, but, good sense, he did not like. He said that "I can do it immediately, but I will not do it." So three bombs they kept ready, and when Germany was in awkward condition these Americans, they stolen, and they used it in Japan. This was manufactured by the German. *Bali*-mardana: Most of the American scientific knowledge for going to space, etc., is all gotten from the Germans. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Bali*-mardana: They stole the German scientists. And the Russians also, after the war, they took many German scientists. Prabhupāda: I think the aeroplane was made by the Germans first. *Bali*-mardana: Yes, the jet airplane, yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. And they took it, the idea, from Sanskrit literature. Yes. They purchased the book from Benares. Devotee: In India we have, and Hawaii, the firecrackers going up, the idea was from there. Harikeśa: The Germans also had the idea that this universe is encaged in some hard layers. And they were trying to bounce waves off of the edge of the universe. Prabhupāda: No, the Germans, they very much praised Indian culture. That my godbrother Soulier, when he came to India he said that "When Indian students come to our country, first of all we inquire how much he has got asset of his own culture. If we find that he has got some knowledge in his own culture, then we receive. Otherwise we reject." As soon as they found that somebody is made of London culture, then immediately they reject. There are many Sanskrit scholars in Germany. Harikeśa: All of the good dictionaries are from Germany. Prabhupāda: No, Max Mueller was German. Harikeśa: A lot of the devotees have been wondering about book production if there is some war. Prabhupāda: War? The war will be for a few days only. *Bali*-mardana: Then the presses can go on. Prabhupāda: This war will not prolong. That is not possible. Harikeśa: So this is not the big one. Prabhupāda: No, it is big war, but it will be finished within short time. *Bali*-mardana: Drop their bombs, everything's finished. *Upendra: But the argument is that these bombs will create more disturbance than just the blowing up. They create what's called radio*-active fallout. Prabhupāda: Yes, that will do. But the war will stop because the party which will be able to drop the bomb first, he will be victorious. Harikeśa: They've got these fancy... Prabhupāda: Then after effects, what will happen, that is another thing. But the war will not continue for ten years or five years, like that. *Bali*-mardana: Many Communist countries now, they are not making any more big cities. They are keeping the population very spread out so that after the war they will be able to take over. Because if one has a big city, then the people can be killed very easily in one bomb, finished. [break] Prabhupāda: ...they are afraid of death? *Bali*-mardana: Well, the Chinese figure they have so many people that even if there is a war... Prabhupāda: They are gainer. *Bali*-mardana: There will still be so many of them left. [break] Prabhupāda: ...they will be left. [break] Harer nāma harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't bother. [break] (in car) Statistics of hitchhike. What is called, hitchhike? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Hitchhikers. Prabhupāda: So mostly rape cases. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, because they don't want to make a different... [break] *Prabhupāda: ...call it Jooeypur.(?) Joo*-ee(?) Joo-ee.(?) [break] ...America can drop the first bomb in Moscow, then they will come out triumphant. And the Communists will be finished. [break] ...friendship with Pakistan only for this reason. It is just on the border of Russia. If from Pakistan they can drop the first bomb in Moscow. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...in the United States and Russia are to get on special airplanes that are equipped... It's like a city in the air, where they will be able to wage war from the air so that even if the all the cities are destroyed, they will still be able to make strategy and keep sending missiles with warheads because they have so many missiles with warheads all over the country that even if all the cities are wiped out they can keep sending more. [break] Prabhupāda: ...they will get their food? *Siddha*-svarūpa: They have it so that they have something like a year's supply. [break] Prabhupāda: They are struggling for living. Still, they will not be allowed to live. [break] ...Communists. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, well they have some basic differences, though, in philosophy. Prabhupāda: What is their philosophy? *Siddha*-svarūpa: The Chinese say that the Russians are revisionists, that is that they're actually capitalists, and the Russians say that the Chinese are religionists, that they're not, that there's some stuff they're following alongside with there. [break] Prabhupāda: ...spiritualists? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Most of the Russians are on a grosser bas... (end) Morning Walk -- June 17, 1975, Honolulu *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...not right, rioting. Chaos. Prabhupāda: And what they will create, chaos? They have no strength. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, they burn their mattresses and they... *Prabhupāda: One slap is sufficient. [break] ...first*-class man. Upendra: That is if they have money, Prabhupāda. The poor man he suffers more. *Prabhupāda: Anardhena naya*-rahitam.. This is stated in Bhāgavatam: "If you have no money, then you won't get justice." You can purchase justice. This is Kali-yuga. Anardhena naya-rahitam. [break] What people mean by religion? [break] ...not serious. Nobody is serious about religion. So what do they think about religion? *Bali*-mardana: They think it is a nice thing so that the people will work hard and not create any trouble. [break] Upendra: ...Protestant work ethic. Protestant work ethics. The western culture has developed because of that work ethic based on, "You work hard and go to church." "Work hard and believe in God," this is the advancement, why western culture is..., is one theory why it's... Prabhupāda: Why shall I believe in God? What is the benefit? Work hard... Now, of course, I shall work hard; I will get money. That's all right. Why shall I believe in God? Śrutakīrti: Because if you work hard and believe in God then He'll save you at death. By working hard, then you'll be saved. Prabhupāda: That's what the Communists say. They do not believe in God. So? Harikeśa: Believing in God makes it all worthwhile. It makes you feel better while you're working hard. Prabhupāda: Those who are atheists, they are also working hard. They are feeling nice by drinking. Why shall I believe in God? Let me drink. Harikeśa: Because they're being satisfied by sense gratification, but in... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why shall I believe in God? Sense gratification is there. Why shall I believe in God? *Upendra: There has to be a certain amount of self*-respect that the Christians give the people... Prabhupāda: Nobody respects. Nowadays, if somebody is religious, he is thought of as a fool. He's not... *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually, because what you're saying is right, people are going away from religion. There is no use for it anymore. Prabhupāda: No religion. No, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Therefore they create some religious system. They create: "Let me create something. After all, it is bluffing. So if I can..." Just like this, from India there are so many come. Here also there are many. They create some. It is... After all, it is bluffing. "So let me create something." Real business is to bluff and take money. *Bali*-mardana: They like to make a show. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Bali*-mardana: Even President Nixon he was having Bible meetings while he was cheating everyone. (Prabhupāda chuckles.) [break] Prabhupāda: They think in, believe in God, and "There is no God; believe in God." Create some God and believe, that's all; finished. Therefore there are many, so many, religions. *Bali*-mardana: Everyone has a tendency to worship something. If they don't worship Kṛṣṇa, they will worship someone else. Like Mao or Lenin... [break] Prabhupāda: One fashion is meditation. This fashion is very prominent. What meditation, they do not know. *Bali*-mardana: They think that it is simply a... Prabhupāda: Sit down... I have seen meditation. (makes snoring sound) I have seen. (people shouting in background) [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: They are waving. Śrutakīrti: They are cheering. Prabhupāda: [break] ...toothpicks, no? They are not so hard. Too soft. [break] ...an apartment. [break] Manasvī: We got from one of the devotee who comes to the temple every day. Śrutakīrti: One of the other valleys here. It's called... I forget the name. He brought a bunch of them back. [break] Prabhupāda: ...nice. Ask him to bring daily. [break] ...portion is being watered specifically? *Siddha*-svarūpa: I think they move them around. Śrutakīrti: They have little things sticking up and they put these sprinklers on them. Prabhupāda: The pipe is everywhere. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...it is called horizontal? And this way vertical? Word is ota*-prota. Ota means this horizontal, and prota means vertical. *Bali*-mardana: In English this is vertical. Prabhupāda: This is vertical? This is horizontal. [break] (end) Morning Walks -- June 18-19, 1975, Honolulu Harikeśa: Morning walk, June 18th. *Prabhupāda: ...their own food, it takes working eight hours for three months. So three months, if they work hard*-hard means eight hours, not more than-then the whole year's provision is there. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Simply they have to harvest, time, maybe two hours a day. Farming or being in the countryside also seems to be, in itself working in the countryside rather than in a factory, seems to be more conducive for thinking, even while they're working. Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that is their argument actually. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat*-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed. Otherwise, although these Chinese, they are pushing in the village, that village also will be a brothel. They must have some attraction. So where is that attraction? Just like the hippies. They do not like this civilization, but the attraction for the sex and intoxication they could not give up. So they remain the nasty again in a different way. The process should be mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That attraction. Mayy āsakta. "The attraction which you..., should be changed to Me." This yoga should be practiced. Then it will be all right. The same example: if you keep the dogs as dog, there is no possibility of making a peaceful dog society. That is not possible. You have to change their doggish quality. Then there will be peace. How you can expect peaceful society amongst the dogs? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Actually the Chinese are attempting artificially to keep the people... Prabhupāda: But they do not know that where is the defect. Defect is that everyone has got some attraction. Somebody has attraction for his personal self. Somebody has got attraction for wife, children, family, then attraction for society. In this way they talk of many things. They have come to attraction of humanity. They are all nonsense. The attraction is for sense gratification under different names only. My attraction for family is not for their benefit. By my sense gratification the family members help me, therefore I am attracted. The wife gives me pleasure; therefore I like wife. The wife also likes husband because husband gives pleasure. Otherwise, there is no attraction. As soon as the husband and wife fails to give pleasure, divorce. The son goes out. The daughter goes out. So everyone is prone to some attraction. So if you keep them in the material attraction, then you can change the name; *the disease will continue. That is the difficulty. You can change the name from this ism to that ism but every ism is material. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti. That is also... "The mūḍhā, these rascal, they do not know mām, Me, Kṛṣṇa," param avyayam, "inexhaustible pleasure." Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure. In the Vṛndāvana there is sporting. There is association with young girls, father, mother. Everything is exactly like this. And in any circumstance they are happy. It is not that in Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa is a sannyāsī. He cannot see the face of woman. It is not like that. (chuckles) But because it is spiritual, it is all*-attractive. There are also the trees, animals, the river, the fruits, the flowers, the father, the mother, the beloved girls, beloved boys, sporting among the cowherd boys, going to the forest, the cows and calves, everything. So that attraction is required. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are thinking, "Again attraction like this? So make it zero, no attraction. Become zero." So their philosophy is zero philosophy. That is also no information of the spiritual world, Buddha philosophy and Māyāvāda philosophy, śūnyavādī, nirviśeṣa, without varieties or zero. Without varieties means zero. So two philosophers. But therefore they invent: "Anything is all right." They invent. After all, they want zeroism. [break] ...pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. [break] ...one increases the attraction for Kṛṣṇa, they will never be happy. [break] ...simply changing attraction on the material platform under different names. That will be failure. [break] Dr. Wolfe is missing that evolution? Paramahaṁsa: Dr. Wolfe? Is he missing the evolution? Prabhupāda: He was speaking biological? Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, I think he was not understanding it so well. Prabhupāda: Means his understanding, that biological, not ours. Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he's thinking biological evolution instead of transmigration of the soul. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...go*-kharaḥ. Anything evolving on the bodily concept of life, he remains an animal. That is the defect of the western philosophy. [break] ...philosophy, the dog's tail. He is always this way, material way. [break] *Bali*-mardana: Yes, and to put stool on the sidewalk. Wherever there is dogs, there is stool all over the sidewalk. *Prabhupāda: That is the modern civilization. They are avoiding cow dung and associating dog stool. (laughs) This is modern... Cow dung is so beneficial. That they are avoiding. And they are associating dog stool. The dog mentality. The master and the servant, and the, er, dog, both of them watching. The master writes by signboard. What is that? "Keep away. Private property." And the animal also making, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Both of them are dogs. He is making "Gow! Gow!" by signboard, and he is doing it as nature, but both of them are dogs. One is two*-legged dog, another is four-legged dog. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Man keeps dog as an extension of his doggish mentality, as an extension of himself. *Bali*-mardana: The dog... Sometimes the dog and the person, they look the same. *Siddha*-svarūpa: They look alike. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Eh? *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's often seen that an owner of a dog looks just like that particular dog. They look very much alike, and they have similar personalities. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact because the subtle body is doggish and he is going to be a dog next life. Tad*-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ. Because he is always thinking of his dog, always, therefore he is going to be a dog. *Bali*-mardana: By association. Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjayate kāmaḥ. The desire becomes according to association. Ambarīṣa: Everybody that's walked by today has had a dog. (laughs) Prabhupāda: Oh, why you are laughing? [break] ...two without association of dog. They have developed that consciousness, dog consciousness. [break] *Bali*-mardana: ...thinking when the dog has to pass stool 'cause then they have to take him outside. [break] Prabhupāda: [break] ...the statistics, how many dogs are there in the United States? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, there are. There are more dogs than... Prabhupāda: Than human being? *Bali*-mardana: No, no. *Siddha*-svarūpa: I think there might be. *Bali*-mardana: There are many millions, though. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Maybe dogs and cats combined. [break] *Bali*-mardana: The people, they feed their dog and cat so much food that millions of human beings could be fed from the food. Because so much grains are required... They feed them meat, but so much grains are required to produce that food. *Siddha*-svarūpa: More money is spent on food for dogs in the United States than for babies. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] In the recent food crisis in the United States, 18% of the people started eating dog food because there's so much... They use such high quality beef and based on so many grains and everything. And they use grains themselves. Milk products. [break] They're even learning how to eat dog food. [break] Prabhupāda: ...dogs in the beach, you cannot walk without seeing dog. More footprints of the dogs than human being. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...actually give dogs more rights also, in a sense. For instance, if you... [break] ...and a human being, every time you walked, if there was a human being yelling at everyone who walked by and was going, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey! You get away! Get away! Get away!" then soon the man would be arrested for being a nuisance or a threat to people. But a dog is allowed to do that. He can stay there and yell and yell at everybody... [break] Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...and Russian, they are different country. Chinese, Oriental; Russian, Occidental. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Like all Occidental countries or at least in the United States, there is the philosophy that, if you have sex, that your sexual energy will not be lost. In other words, their feeling is that one doesn't lose his health or strength from having too much sex or from using his sexual energy, whereas the Chinese, they are very... Everyone in the society for centuries and centuries have accepted that even for physical strength and, mental strength it's very important not to... Prabhupāda: Indulge in sex. *Siddha*-svarūpa: ...indulge in sex so that it's just a cultural thing that they actually try to control that just for health and mental power, whereas in the west the leaders and the people in general... [break] Prabhupāda: ...and because they indulge too much in sex, therefore they cannot understand. That is the proof they are fools. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] ...control themselves. The colonialists will go in and... [break] Prabhupāda: Unless they are taught about spiritual attraction, everyone will be finished. [break] ...very childhood they should be given spiritual education. [break] ...by repressive method you will never be successful. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Repression is also due to frustration. That they can't convince someone... [break] Prabhupāda: Russians are doing that by repression. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. Then whenever their back is turned the people do something else. Or they will stab them in the... [break] Prabhupāda: They do that? [break] Leaders? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. [break] Yes. So the only way that they can attract them is to just let them free in the school. But I said that... [break] Prabhupāda: I have seen in the Hawaii University, all hippies. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. In Hawaii it's very loose. For instance, even the high schools, they're mostly very loose. But when, after it gets too loose, then the students go so much into sense gratification that then there becomes... [break] Prabhupāda: ...solution, they will not take it. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, because it would mean they would have... [break] Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent. *Siddha*-svarūpa: He speaks straight from his heart so you can... [break] ...that Yogi Bhajan's philosophy though. He wants everybody to come to the... [break] Prabhupāda: ...is responsible for the mistake of the followers. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes. So now he must have many leaflets printed up with this information about the prime minister's guru. But now it's out of date. It will be out of date. He will have to print new thing. Prabhupāda: He was distributing leaflet like that? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, literature inviting people, you know, about the conference. [break] Is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita widely available in India? Prabhupāda: That is not very important thing. It has nothing to do with spiritual..., but moral instruction. *Siddha*-svarūpa: For kṣatriyas? Prabhupāda: No, for everyone. You can get from India, Canakya Paṇḍita. It is called Cāṇakya-śloka, "Verses composed by Canakya," Cāṇakya-śloka. [break] ...western country, they have come to a stage in which by nature they are now seeking after some spiritual importance. And that is available in India. But these rascals, they are taking advantage of it and exploiting, this Guru Mahārāja, these yogis, these... But these people, western people, they are searching after this. So it is our duty especially to give them the right thing. They are searching after, and they are taking advantage of it and exploiting them. [break] ...is one of them. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Yes, that's why they're not allowed in the United States. They're not accepted as... [break] Prabhupāda: It has gone to India. [break] Yogic āsana exercise is very popular. They think it is spiritual, exercising the body. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: This way is longer. You have more room to keep walking. That way you have to stop after awhile. *Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. [break] ...them something substantial. They are eager. This is the proper time. By nature the turn comes. [break] ...brahma*-jijñāsā. [break] "...drinking. No dog." This is our principle. [break] "...smoking." [break] ...don't say anywhere, "No illicit sex." That is allowed. Go on with it. [break] Tomorrow we shall come for morning walk? No. Manasvī: You'll have to leave the temple about 8:00, before eight. Devotee: 7:30 *Siddha*-svarūpa: There's time. There's time to take a walk. Śrutakīrti: You would have to take massage in the morning, so I don't there would be ample time. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Writing advertising, "World famous...?" Devotee: "World famous steak and lobster." It's a restaurant. *Siddha*-svarūpa: It's different advertisement. [break] Here it is not allowed, so the companies are going to use cars. Prabhupāda: [break] ...the samosa? Devotee: Lilananda. Prabhupāda: It is very nice. Why don't you make it in the morning? Devotee: For breakfast? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Viṣaya means sense enjoyment. Now, that boy and the girl, they're taking dogs. The dog is also male and female, and the man is male and female. So viṣaya means sense enjoyment. The sex enjoyment is both; the dogs and the man, they will have. But the man can get Kṛṣṇa; the dog cannot get Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. Viṣaya, that sex enjoyment, is available both for the dogs and the man. But the man can achieve Kṛṣṇa; *the dog cannot. That is special. Viṣaya khalu sarvataḥ syāt. [break] ...of eating, sleeping, mating. That is available in every life. [break] ...another passage is there in Prema*-vivarta, janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya: "In every life, one can get father and mother." Kṛṣṇa guru nahi mile bhajahun re bhāi(?): "But Kṛṣṇa and guru cannot be had in every life." That is only in human life. Otherwise, as soon as there is birth, there is father and mother. Either you become human being or tiger or snake or bird, the father mother is there. But the spiritual father and Kṛṣṇa, that can be obtained in human life, not in every life. Devotee: Soccer. Prabhupāda: Soccer or football? Manasvī: Football, that's football. [break] Prabhupāda: No, rugby is different. *Siddha*-svarūpa: Football they call soccer here. [break] Prabhupāda: ...men in one party? Manasvī: Eleven. Devotee: Did Kṛṣṇa play that? (laughter) Prabhupāda: Hmm? Unless Kṛṣṇa played, how you can play? [break] ...play is very popular in India, and rugby. What is that called, rugby? Manasvī: No, that is hockey. Prabhupāda: Hockey, hockey, yes. [break] Upendra: (in car:) ...a recipe for these potato patties. What was that recipe again? Potatoes and then you mentioned some... Prabhupāda: Sabudhana. [break] *Siddha*-svarūpa: From observation and experience, I think that there's a higher rate of sickness in the temples than outside the temples, than the normal population for some reason, and I was wondering what could be done to bring this down. Like I know every time I'm living in close quarters, for instance, here in the temple I get some type of flu. And I can think of what it might be, but I think that in many of the temples, from what I've experienced, there seems to be more sickness. I don't know whether it's... Prabhupāda: For you or for all others? *Siddha*-svarūpa: Well, I know myself for sure. But I see a lot of other people always... There seems to be epidemics always going around or something. Manasvī, what do you think in the Honolulu temple? Prabhupāda: Manasvī is not sick. Manasvī: No, there is not anything like flu or anything. Some of the devotees have like chronic diseases. *Siddha*-svarūpa: But in general. Manasvī: I have rheumatism, you know. That is from the beginning. Some people are like that. Honolulu temple is not so sick. Once it happened about three months before. At that time I was told it was all over happening. But no, generally Honolulu temple, there is not much sickness. (end) Morning Walk -- June 21, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...occupied? Jayatīrtha: Oh yes, all of them. Prabhupāda: And is there any house for sale? Jayatīrtha: Any more houses for sale? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: There are always a couple... [break] ...too much money. [break] Harikeśa: Morning walk, June 21st, L.A. [break] Prabhupāda: What does he mean? You are all here. Now I want to see that seventeen books are waiting in the... So when it will be finished? I want to know. Jayatīrtha: This morning, if you like, we can go to the press building, and we can show you what we've done to improve the situation. Prabhupāda: All right. Jayatīrtha: And inform you about the schedules. Prabhupāda: What time do you want to go there? Jayatīrtha: Perhaps around... When is convenient? Ten o'clock? Before the massage? *Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...fed up with so*-called religion. Therefore they're angry. But when they find this is real, genuine, everyone will accept. [break] Brahmānanda: ...wants to come and see you, he likes your movement very much. He has written one review of one of your books. He also met you I think briefly. He is from Boston, Mr. Leo Prudden, Professor Leo Prudden. Now he lives here in Los Angeles. Jayatīrtha: There will be many professors coming over to see you while you are here. Prabhupāda: Yes... Jayatīrtha: Ph.D.'s, and psychologists,... Prabhupāda: Ask them to see me. What time we should fix up? Brahmānanda: I think afternoon? You prefer afternoon? Or early time? Prabhupāda: Afternoon is a nice... Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...men from the University of Southern California wants to come and see you, the chairman and many of the members. Prabhupāda: Oh. Then invite them and give them nice feast, yes. Make arrangement. Time, whatever suitable time you will fix up, I... Jayatīrtha: We'll discuss it with Upendra when is the best time. [break] Prabhupāda: ...hīna paśubhiḥ samānaḥ. "As soon as one become bereft of religion, he's animal." That's all. That is the difference between animals and man. They think to become polished animal is advancement of civilization. To become lion is advancement of civilization. "Because I am stronger than the dog therefore I am civilized." Americans think like that. "Because we are stronger than the Chinese dog or Russian cat, therefore I am civilized." (laughs) This is going on. "Because I am tiger, I am lion..." He doesn't think that after, "You be tiger or lion; *You are animal." Just see. [break] ...puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Śva*-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ. I think we were discussing this verse? Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. [break] Brahmānanda: ...verse would you like to read from this morning? Prabhupāda: Yes, Sixth Canto, Ajamila. [break] Prabhupāda: ...got this coat? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukṛpa Mahārāja. He got it made in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I see that it is not American. [break] ...umbrellas. [break] ...this place? Jayatīrtha: This is a place where they have social functions. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] So many dogs, "best friends." [break] ...they have erased, "No dogs on beach," "Dogs on beach." (laughter) Just see how lawful they are. [break] How many books are pending? Rāmeśvara? Rāmeśvara: I think we have just added one more in the Sixth Canto since you have started translating it. Prabhupāda: No, no. How many books are pending? Rāmeśvara: Still about seventeen. Prabhupāda: So? Rāmeśvara: We have just sent Madhya Two... Prabhupāda: They are not complete? Rāmeśvara: You have finished them. Prabhupāda: No, I have finished. I mean to edit, editing? *Rāmeśvara: Editing, we are done five volumes in Madhya*-līlā and two volumes in Antya-līlā. But they are being held up in the Sanskrit division. Prabhupāda: So you get it corrected. I am present. I will do that. Rāmeśvara: I think when Nitāi and Jagannātha come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all the books will come out within a few months, all of them. Prabhupāda: No, no, not a few months. I want these seventeen pending books must be printed within two months. That I want. Otherwise disqualification. Yes. [break] ...be done. Your so many GBC's are here, and you are also here, I am also here. Decide! It must be done. It is too much delay. [break] ...constructing something here, but stopped? What is that? Bahulāśva: No, they just use that for cleaning the beach. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bahulāśva: They use that for cleaning up the garbage on the beach. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: I think this is some sort of volley ball or tennis that goes on inside there. Prabhupāda: Inside the wall... Jayatīrtha: Inside the wall there's some sort of sports arena, tennis and... Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, what is your report? Satsvarūpa: Report? Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Well, er... Prabhupāda: Standing order? Satsvarūpa: They're still getting them in public libraries in Detroit... Prabhupāda: They have got standing order from Oxford University. Satsvarūpa: You heard? Prabhupāda: No, they have got, sent me the copy of the standing order. Satsvarūpa: Oh, that's wonderful. They're getting letters from big professors at Cambridge and Oxford in praise of the books. They'll be very, very useful. Bahulāśva: [break] ...professors are very impressed with your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bahulāśva: All the professors are very impressed with your books. Prabhupāda: Impressed? Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Satsvarūpa: We just got a review published in a magazine called Choice which is used... It's very important. It's used by all the libraries all over the country, and the review was excellent. They didn't say one bad thing. You should see that review. Prabhupāda: Where? You have got that copy? Rāmeśvara: We have copy. I can bring it in today. Satsvarūpa: That one review does more work than we could do by traveling all over the country for a year. Because the librarians, when we go to them, they say, "Well, we usually order our books from this Choice magazine." But now we're in it. So... *Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is helping us. Take advantage of it. [break] Vyāsadeva compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam for this purpose. Anartha upasamam sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaja. These lokasya ajānataḥ, people are suffering on account of ignorance, so to give them proper knowledge, he made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. [break] Who can become more learned than Vyāsadeva? Therefore he is known as vidvān, the most, supreme learned. He made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to help these rascals who are spoiling their life only in sense gratification. [break] Life is meant for tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed [SB 5.5.1]. They do not know that our existentional condition is impure. The question does not arise that "I do not wish to die. Why there is death?" They are so dull-headed, this question does not... They are trying to solve so many question, but this question does not arise in their mind, that "I don't wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" Inquire. Come on, all philosophers and scientists, come and make an inquiry commission, that "I don't want to die. The death is forced upon me. I don't want to become old man, and it is forced upon me. What is the reason?" Therefore they are rascals. The prime problem, they have set aside. Big, big scientists... That Professor Einstein and other, other, they are big, big scientists. They do not consider this question, that "I am a big scientist. So I am also going to die. So why it is?" That question, they have set aside. And they manufacture atom bomb to make dead very easy, not to stop death, but death*-making very easily available. This is scientific. Hmm? Is that scientific? Bahulāśva: No. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Everyone is dying, and they accelerate death. And that is taken as scientific. Satsvarūpa: They are also making research how to stop death. Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: They're making... But it's useless. Prabhupāda: So that is in our hands; that is not in their hands. Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupāda! *Revatīnandana: Some time back I was reading an article on an airplane, one of those airline news magazines, about the science of gerontology, the science of putting off death or stopping death. They say, "Within twenty*-thirty years we will have stopped it. We will even reverse the process of old age. We'll become younger." That was their claim. *Prabhupāda: They can do it*-that is credit. But what is this credit, that people are dying and you discover atom bomb to accelerate death very quickly? If they are thinking like that, then sanity is coming. At least, they are thinking like that, that "Why death should not be stopped?" That will be credit if they can do so, but at least this question, it comes. Then they become human being, not dogs. And so long this question does not come, they are cats and dogs. This is athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the inquiry. Sanātana Gosvāmī when he approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu he first questioned this, ke āmi, keno more jape tāpa-traya: "I was minister. That's all right. But I do not know why I shall accept death. Therefore I have come to You." This is minister, intelligence, that "People praise me, I am minister, I am very learned scholar, but I do not know why I am under the tribulations of three-fold miseries, and what is my position." Ke āmi, keno more jape tapa-traya: "Who I am? I don't want all these things, why they are troubling me?" Grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita, tai satya kori mani: "These fools and rascals, they call me, I am very learned scholar, and I also accept it, but I do not know why I am suffering." This is Sanātana Gosvāmī's question. So what they are doing? They are making research? Revatīnandana: Yes. Prabhupāda: Who are they? Very important men? *Revatīnandana: Well, it just said... The magazine was not terribly detailed. It just said that many scientists involved in this are claiming that within twenty*-thirty years they will reverse the aging processes. I think it is a bogus claim actually. They dream all kinds of things like that. Satsvarūpa: They say when a person is born, there is a kind of clock inside them that runs so long. If they can change that clock, then they'll make it stretch out. Prabhupāda: Another foolishness. Bahulāśva: Most of these big philosophers don't ever think of that question, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bahulāśva: These big philosophers never think of that question. Prabhupāda: Because they have no answer. Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: The difficult subject matter, they set aside. Bahulāśva: They avoid. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: But this gerontology is not a major subject in any of the universities yet. Prabhupāda: They know, "It is not possible by us." They know it. Bahulāśva: I was speaking with Professor Stahl about this point in Berkeley. And he also had no answers for this question. He thought that there was no such thing as eternal life. Prabhupāda: Well, then, therefore you are a rascal. Then why you are struggling to live? Why, when you are sick, why do you call doctor, physician? Why this tendency? Why you are making research in medical science, opening hospital? Die. Why you are not willing to die? Then what is the answer? He says, "There is no such thing as eternity," but why you are struggling for eternity? Then what is the answer? Hmm? Bahulāśva: Well, when we tell them your philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he became silent. The one... We were having a debate, and the one chairman of the debate, he then he turned to Mr. Stahl. He said, "So what do you think of this answer, Mr. Philosopher?" And Mr. Stahl just sat there very quiet. He couldn't say anything. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Everyone is trying to live. That is Darwin's theory also, "struggle for existence." So why you are trying to exist if there is no such thing? Satsvarūpa: Well, they say, "We don't mind if we're not eternal, but we want to live as long as possible." Prabhupāda: Why? That is my question. Why? Why this tendency? Revatīnandana: Some years back... Prabhupāda: That means it is unnatural. "I am eternal, but this death has been forced upon me. That is unnatural." That is intelligence. *Revatīnandana: Some time back in the newspaper... This old president of America, Harry Truman, died, and it mentioned that he was eighty*-eight years old and that in the last eight years he had been in and out of the hospital ten times for surgery. So in eight years he had been operated on ten times. At eighty-eight years old he was still trying to live, and finally he died. Prabhupāda: Just see, just see. Revatīnandana: So much misery; still, he would not die. He tolerated all these operations. Bahulāśva: This Professor Stahl, he was saying that his experience is that everything is changing and temporary. So therefore he was thinking that that is the nature of all things, that they are temporary. *Prabhupāda: Temporary, this (indistinct). Why this "temporary" word has come into existence unless there is the opposite, "eternal"? Why do you use this word, "temporary"? When you say, "It is fraud," and there must be something as honesty. Otherwise, why this "fraud" has come? Hm? We say, "This is light"*-means there is something as darkness. This is relative world. The Professor Einstein said relativity. This is relative: as soon as there is darkness, there must be light. Otherwise, how you understand light and darkness? So unless there is eternity, how do you bring this word, "temporary"? What is their answer? Bahulāśva: They have no answer. Prabhupāda: Unless there is father, there is no meaning of the word son. Unless there is husband, there is no meaning of the word wife. This is the relative world, and they are accepting this relativity. So how they can deny? As soon as you "temporary" say, you must accept there is eternity. Bahulāśva: We were telling him that although everything is changing, he was still existing. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, existing, but why you are in change? That is the question. "I am existing," that we say, but we are trying to solve the problem of changing. But this changing is not very happy, to die and again accept another body and remain to, in the womb of the mother to develop that body in an airtight condition. So why these foolish persons do not take it as very miserable? And with the risk of being killed by the mother. Nowadays their abortion and killing. So is it very nice life, that you die and you enter into the mother's womb to develop another body? And that also not secure. Is that very nice life? [break] Write many articles on this subject matter and prove them that "You are all fools." [break] ...major problem, they have left aside. Bahulāśva: The main problem. *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. And Kṛṣṇa says, therefore, "These are your real problems: janma*-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. If you are intelligent, then you should keep always in your front these problems." Bahulāśva: They think that we're avoiding the real problems. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bahulāśva: They think that we're avoiding the real problems because we're not doing business. Prabhupāda: We are not doing business? We are doing the best business. You are working hard day and night, and without working, we are living comfortably. They cannot dream of. [break] ...is their envy, that "These people, without doing anything they are living so comfortably. And we are working so hard day and night." [break] Yes, this is envious. [break] He is searching some fish? [break] Jayatīrtha: Clams. Bahulāśva: (break ) ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have scheduled some meetings with many professors there, from this Graduate Theological Union and other places. Dr. Judah will be there and some of his associates. Prabhupāda: Dr. Judah, he wanted to see me earlier, no? Bahulāśva: Yes, he'll be coming here probably on Tuesday or Wednesday. He's just coming from Boston. They had a big library convention there for the theological schools in the United States. So he had to go to speak at that, and then he'll be coming back. Prabhupāda: Did he speak anything about Hare Kṛṣṇa? Bahulāśva: He's always speaking about this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. (Prabhupāda chuckles) He gave one lecture just about two weeks ago. It was very very nice. I attended, and I was also speaking something. Prabhupāda: No, he is serious about studying this movement. Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is nice. Anyone who is serious, he will appreciate. [break] Bahulāśva: ...that any intelligent person who hears this philosophy and reads your books, he'll have to accept. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: No one can even challenge. [break] Prabhupāda: They are giving standing orders. They understand this is worthly. [break] ...is up? No. Jayatīrtha: A little bit early still. Prabhupāda: Then we can go this way. [break] ...many rooms are there in the new house? Bahulāśva: Oh, there are many rooms. Two very, very large rooms, at least as big as the temple room in San Francisco, er, in Los Angeles, excuse me. Two rooms that big. Then there's about four rooms for living quarters, a big kitchen, and then several offices, and then a nice quarters for Your Divine Grace with a bath, with a shower right there. Prabhupāda: What it was before? Bahulāśva: It was a Mormon church. Prabhupāda: Ohh. Bahulāśva: Built very solid. Jayatīrtha: Made of bricks. Prabhupāda: So all the churches we are purchasing. (laughter) Bahulāśva: They are all going out of business. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...worm and the sun. When the sun is arisen, the glowworms, automatically finished. [break] ...motto, "Kṛṣṇa is sun." You know it? Kṛṣṇa sūrya*-sama. So when Kṛṣṇa sun is there, all these glowworms' lightening will be finished. [break] ...this sun always shining. Then these glowworms will be finished. [break] ...that Sikh, Bhajan? What is that? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogi Bhajan. Prabhupāda: Ah ha. He came to invite me. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? In Hawaii? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: He came to our temple a few nights ago also, for āratik. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has a big following. Prabhupāda: So he came to invite me. I indirectly refused. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He has a very big following all over this country. But they have no books, no philosophy. Bahulāśva: Actually, they read our books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We were speaking at this one yoga center, and they say that they go to their swami to learn exercises, but for knowledge they must read the books by Your Divine Grace. Prabhupāda: Yes. Even he has recommended, Mahesh Yogi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really? To that boy. Prabhupāda: Yes, you know? To his secretary. When he asked him that "I want real spiritual life," then he said, "Then go to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Bahulāśva: They have started a university also, and they are using your books at that university. Prabhupāda: That's nice. (laughs) *Bahulāśva: Yeah, Maharishi, they are reading Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: No, Maharishi has got respect for me. Even this, what is that? Cintāmaṇi? Harikeśa: Cinmayananda? Prabhupāda: No, no. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrī Cinmoya. Bahulāśva: From Bombay? Prabhupāda: No, no. He has also. He has also. He has given us a certificate: whatever I wrote, he has signed it. Everyone has respect. *Nalini*-kantha: But they do not go together. Their practice and our practice, they do not mix. *Prabhupāda: No, no. [break] ...our practice, then they are defeated. That they... [break] What they can do? But at heart they know what is their value. [break] ...and push on. You will come victorious everywhere. [break] ...sūrya*-sama, māya andhakāra yāhān kṛṣṇa, tāhān nahi māyāra adhikāra. If you remain seriously in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then these people will have no, I mean to say, right to come before you. Adhikāra. They will remain far away. [break] ...how to make my watch right time? Jayatīrtha: Oh. It's 6:32. We can change it. Prabhupāda: You have talked with Rāmeśvara that we are not any more going to send cash money. Bahulāśva: I will tell him. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...Jayatīrtha, another good news, that African government is understanding the importance of this movement. Jayatīrtha: Ah. Brahmānanda was telling me some things about Africa. [break] ...professor who is doing a study on Kṛṣṇa consciousness now. He wants to come and see you. He comes over at least four or five times a week to the temple. He's becoming very serious. He's a psychologist, and he tells his patients that they should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will be the answer. Prabhupāda: He says? (laughs) Jayatīrtha: Oh, yes. He gives them cards and tells them to come and visit the temple. [break] ...publish some book about us. [break] Prabhupāda: They should come forward and cooperate. It is such a nice thing. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. They are leading men. If they understand, the others will accept it. It is a good thing. They must accept it. Brahmānanda: In Kenya we went into one government officer asking for some land for a farm. He also said, "We want to give you land right in the middle of the village, so you can build your church there." Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Brahmānanda: He offered that. He said, "All the other religions, they have their... We have certain plots for them, and there is a church for Catholic, a church for Protestant, a church for Bahai." Prabhupāda: No, no, take anywhere they give land. Yes. That will be recognition. We don't mind for the land, but the government has given land means recognized. That is wanted. *Brahmānanda: Oh yes, yes. [break] One of the African devotees was explaining to the vice*-president that verse, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. *Brahmānanda: And he was explaining it to him from Bhagavad*-gītā. And the vice-president he asked, "Who has given you this knowledge?" Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) Brahmānanda: He was so impressed. He accepted immediately, "Yes, you are right." [break] Brahmānanda: ...Canto that Prabhupāda will read. [break](end) Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles Harikeśa: This is a recording, conversation, Sunday, 5 o'clock, June 22nd. Dharmādhyakṣa: With Dr. Allen Gerson. [break] *Dr. Gerson: ...beginning of a two*-year study on the devotees trying to demonstrate to the people in the material world the psychological benefits that come over the devotees as they become more and more involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Prabhupāda: Yes. A vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. first of all we have to change our mental activities into Kṛṣṇa activities. Then everything will be all right. The mind is engaged always, so the engagement should be with Kṛṣṇa. And if we read these books, our mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa. The same thing, our mind is engaged in material activities. The same mind is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, then the whole thing changes. Dr. Gerson: I have yet to look into the material that I'm presenting to the devotees but my experience with them is that as they are into the movement longer and longer and become deeper involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, just exactly that is happening, that their material nature seems to become much more relaxed and... *Prabhupāda: Yes, there will be no more material activities. Just like you take a iron rod and put into the fire. It becomes warm, warmer, and at last it becomes red hot. When the iron rod is red hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. If you touch the iron rod, red hot, anywhere, it will act as fire. Similarly, if you engage your mind in Kṛṣṇa activity the mind becomes Kṛṣṇaized gradually, and when he is advanced, there is no material activities, all spiritual activities. Just like here in this temple there is no material activities. And material activities means based on this illicit sex, meat*-eating, intoxication and gambling. Here you will not find anything of this. *Dr. Gerson: I would like to demonstrate through my study which will be going on for two years and then come out as a book, the benefits of giving up illicit sex, meat*-eating, and the other things. Prabhupāda: Spiritualize. Dr. Gerson: Yes. *Prabhupāda: These are all material necessities. So if you come to the spiritual platform, the test is that you have no material necessities. So long you are diseased, you require medicine, but when you are not diseased there is no need of medicine. It is the healthy state. So so long we are materially diseased, we require all these material necessities. So when you are on the spiritual platform there is no material (indistinct). Nidrāhāra*-vihārakādi-vijitau **, then you conquer over even our prime necessities, eating, sleeping, mating, and defense, the prime necessities the primary necessities, you don't require. You will sleep less, you will eat less, there is no need of mating, (indistinct), very less. So the lesser, lesser you become, that means spiritual. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra [SB 11.2.42]. Your spiritual advancement means you become reluctant, disgusted with this, no more. Just like Yamunācārya, he explains his position, Dharmādhyakṣa: Spit? Prabhupāda: This is the test. So long we have got taste for this material enjoyment, that means we are not advanced. Therefore the Vedic civilization is, voluntarily they give up this household life and become a sannyāsī, where there is no need of sex life. Then, after sannyāsa life, he becomes paramahaṁsa. That is Vedic civilization. Dr. Gerson: I've noticed changes just in the few months that I've been among the devotees, in myself, and they've been in that direction, and it's a very nice feeling to be able to feel, at least in small part, into the spiritual world. *Prabhupāda: The Vedic civilization, therefore, teaches the student, brahmacārī, how to remain without sex life. Those who are unable to continue that, they are allowed, "All right, be married life." And that is also for twenty*-five years. A student remains brahmacārī up to twenty-five years, and if we wants to take this sex license-household life means sex life-so he can get the license for twenty-five years more. So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care and the man takes sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them. Of course, according to the principle, they are not fit for sannyāsa, but because Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years... Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. He lived only for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. So for ordinary man, sannyāsa is difficult. But for preaching work, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's footprints we are trying to follow. Dr. Gerson: I think here in America that people probably criticize because they're ignorant, and I hope to... *Prabhupāda: That "American" that I have discussed. Those who are in the bodily concept of life, they are not even human being. They are animals. Yasyātmā*-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. One who takes this body, "I am, I am American, I am German, I am Englishman, I am Indian," they are animals. They are not even human being. When you deny, that "I am not American, I am not Indian, not Englishman. I am not this body," then he is in the spiritual body. That's all. And so long he will identify that "I am this body, and because my body is American, therefore I am American," that is animal life. That is not even human life. So that is going on all over the world, identifying the body as self. "I am American, I am German, I am Englishman, I am Indian." The whole United Nation is based on this conception. So where is the unity? If you are thinking as "American" or "Indian" or "Pakistani" or "German," so where is the question of unity? But they have manufactured a false method, United Nations, by lecturing. Just like if you bring a dozen of dogs and ask them, "Live peacefully," will they live peacefully? They will bark, "Ow! Ow! Ow!" So this is going on. If you keep them as they are, dogs, how you can expect unity? So they should not remain as dogs. They should come to become human beings, then there is question of... But they want to keep them as dogs, and at the same time, they want to unite. Therefore it is unsuccessful. Is it not? Is it not unsuccessful? Dr. Gerson: I couldn't hear. Devotees: United Nations unsuccessful. Dr. Gerson: Oh, it is unsuccessful. Yes. I meet many people in the course of my work that are very unhappy because of the frustrations that they experience. *Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is for unhappiness. In the Bhagavad*-gītā you will find this place, the material world, has been described as duḥkhālayam. Duḥkhālayam means the place of miseries. So how you... If the place is made for miseries, how you can make this place as full of pleasure, if God made like that? Just like if you are put into the prison house and if you want to live very comfortably, is it possible? Prison house is meant for giving you trouble so that you may be rectified, no more stealing, not to become criminal. It is meant for punishment. Similarly, this whole material world is meant for punishing these criminals who wanted to enjoy independently God's property. They are all criminals. We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the friend of all living entities." But these people, they are claiming that... The leader is claiming, "I am the friend," and he is claiming, "I am the proprietor." They are, therefore, criminal. He is not friend. Just like your president. He is not friend of the countrymen. So this is the position of the most exalted man, and what to speak of the ordinary man? Nobody is friend. All enemies. Therefore I am envious of you, you are envious of me. There is no question of becoming friend because everyone is selfish. He wants his personal benefit, so how he can become other's friend? This is false. By false pretension, he is occupying big, big post and taking money for his sense gratification. That's all. This is material world. And to keep up his position he is proclaiming, that "I am your friend." Just like when Nixon was being elected: "America needs Nixon now." (laughter) I have seen that signboard. And then again it became, "America needs to kick out." (laughter) This is going on. This is cheating. Both of them are cheater. Those who elected him, he is also cheater, and who became elected, he is also cheater. So this is the society of cheaters and cheated. The so-called human society means the society of the cheaters and cheated. One man is cheated, another man is cheater, and alternately he is also cheated and others are cheated. This is going on. Dr. Gerson: Most of those who come to see me are the cheated. Prabhupāda: And you also cheat them. (laughter) Dr. Gerson: I hope not. I would like to show them... Prabhupāda: They want to be cheated, and you also cheat them. Very good business. Dr. Gerson: I would like to show them a path so that they won't be cheated any longer. Prabhupāda: Provided you know the path. Dr. Gerson: I'm trying to learn. Prabhupāda: So first of all learn it. Otherwise you will be cheating. If you do not know the art and if you want to do some benefit to the others, then that is cheating. Suppose a physician, he does not know what is the medical science and if he wants to become a physician, that is cheating. Quack. (laughter) Dr. Gerson: I hope through the study that I'm doing with the devotees and the book that comes out of it that it will help them not be cheated any longer and show them the right way. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: He is advising his patients that they should chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and come to the temple. Prabhupāda: Then he is very nice. Then you are friend. Dr. Gerson: Another thing I would like to do is go to Gurukula and test the children and show what NBC did was very false and unfair. Jayatīrtha: On television they did a very bad story on Gurukula. *Prabhupāda: Yes, they're, they cheater. He wants to cheat and get some money. That's all. Because the whole so*-called human society is combination of cheater and cheated. So anyone who is acting without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is a cheater. And anyone who is thinking himself advanced without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is cheated. This is the basic principle. I mean Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness, so when we speak of Kṛṣṇa-God. Without God consciousness, everyone is cheated. And because everyone is cheated, there must be cheater. This is correlative term. If I say, "I am cheated," that means there is a cheater. And if there is a cheater there must be cheated. This is relative term. Dr. Gerson: NBC did an unfair story on Gurukula. They cheated. And I would like to undo that. I would like to go and show that the school is very good. Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very kind of you, but there have been so many attempts to cut down this movement, but they are cheated. They could not do so. Dr. Gerson: May I try to help? Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your real business. In India also, they are still making so much propaganda. They are making propaganda that "These American devotees, they are CIA." (laughter) This propaganda is very strong in India, making the people against these American boys who are preaching. So this is going on. They financed one film, "Hare Krishna." That is spite against us. But still, those who are sincere, they are praising, "Yes, this is a real." Brahmānanda: In India the effect of that film is just the opposite that everyone is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now appreciate. Yes. Brahmānanda: It was very popular, the chanting. Prabhupāda: That "Hare Krishna" film at least helped us in the matter of propagating the Hare Kṛṣṇa word. Dr. Gerson: I would like to. Jayatīrtha: Dr. Gerson would like to publish a book that would be accepted by the scholarly circles so that they would see that our school and our varṇāśrama system is very good for mankind. Dharmādhyakṣa: Because one of the main arguments against the movement is that we are crazy. So Dr. Gerson, it is his specialty in determining who is sane and who is crazy, and according to his observation, the devotees here are more sane than... *Prabhupāda: So kindly write one book, at least small book, supporting this movement. That will be great service. Actually this should be supported by all sane men, it is so nice. And practically, you see, Dr. Judah has admitted that "You have converted drug*-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and servant of humanity." That he has written, that who likes us. Dr. Gerson: I think the data that I am collecting will support that and show it in terms that other people in psychology and medicine will be able to read. Prabhupāda: If you read Dr. Judah's book... Dr. Gerson: I have it, yes. Prabhupāda: ...you will get many information. He has very scholarly presented. He has made references from so many books. Jayatīrtha: He has been running various psychological tests on the devotees, Dr. Gerson has been using psychological tests... Prabhupāda: What is this psychological test? Jayatīrtha: You can explain. Dr. Gerson: Well, there are a variety of tests, and they have to do with the kind of personality and intelligence and creativity that people in general have, and I'm finding... Prabhupāda: Yes. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is not dependent on any personality. Dr. Gerson: I understand that. But what I'm trying to do is explain to the medical and psychological community in terms that they will understand, and so I'm using the tests that they understand and read. Prabhupāda: You give him one book, that Scientific Basis of... Jayatīrtha: ...of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Have you read that book by Svarūpa Dāmodara. Prabhupāda: Yes, you can give him one book. You read it. Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Gerson has promised that he will read every single one of your books before he writes his book. He's very serious. Prabhupāda: That is very kind of you. We have got about fifty books. (laughter) Dharmādhyakṣa: He knows. Prabhupāda: And it is increasing. Perhaps in the next two months we shall increase another seventeen books. There are seventeen books pending to be published. They have not done. So I am sitting here to see that this is published within two months. So therefore they are working day and night, the editorial department, printing department. They have got very nice arrangement for working. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Dāmodara Prabhu has taken these tests already, and maybe he can explain a little. Prabhupāda: Test? What is that? Dharmādhyakṣa: He's taken these psychological tests that Dr. Gerson is giving, Dāmodara Prabhu. He has already... Prabhupāda: Who has tested? Dāmodara: I was tested by Dr. Gerson and by his assistant. Prabhupāda: So what did you find in him? *Dāmodara: Well, I didn't find them disturbing to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I felt that when I was doing it... For instance, the lady asked me to draw a picture of a person, so I drew a picture of Kṛṣṇa. So I felt that well, this was nice because she was seeing Kṛṣṇa. And then she said draw a picture of a house. So I tried to draw a picture of the Kṛṣṇa*-Balarāma Mandir. I didn't do very well, but anyway, she was thinking about Kṛṣṇa. So I thought it was a preaching opportunity. I think most of the devotees approach it in that way. Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda asked what you found out when you tested Dāmodara. Dr. Gerson: Well, I haven't studied the tests yet. We're trying to test all of the devotees here in the L.A. temple and that in itself is taking all of my time. I haven't looked at his tests. Dharmādhyakṣa: But can you give some impressions... Prabhupāda: But that is not the process. Dr. Gerson: My impressions of the devotees thus far, however, are that those who have been in the movement much longer... *Prabhupāda: Because even if you find somebody diseased, still, spiritual consciousness is not hampered. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, ahaituky apratihatā. Apratihatā means without any impediment. There is no checking. Just like in the Ganges water you will sometimes find the stool is floating there. But that does not mean the Ganges water has become polluted. It is practical. In Calcutta, in our childhood, I was taking bath in the Ganges with my father. Many gentlemen regularly takes bath in the Ganges. And the modern scientific method is: all the garbage, throw into the river. So we were taking bath, and here is some stool floating. So we used to drive away the stool and take bath. The stool is unable to pollute the Ganges water. You will find in India still. The advanced gentlemen... "The dirty water," they say, Ganges water. But you will find practically, that anyone who is taking regular bathing in this dirty water, he is healthy. You will find. It is very healthy. No disease touches him ordinarily. Of course, the body is susceptible to disease, but generally, those who are taking regular bath in the Ganges water, they are not diseased. You will find it practically still. So as the stool floating in the Ganges water cannot pollute the Ganges water, similarly, a devotee, even if you find scientifically that he is crazy or he is diseased, that is not impediment. Dr. Gerson: I don't expect to find it, and if I do, I understand... Prabhupāda: No, even if you find... You cannot find it, but even if you find, that is not impediment. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what these tests will show is that when a person came first he was doing some drugs or some nonsense, and now that he's taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has become so much more of a healthy and wholesome person. Prabhupāda: That is the test. That is the real test, how we got so many devotees from the hippie group, so how they have given up all their bad habits. This is the real test. Revatīnandana: The function of his testing is to show that, that that change takes place in a way that other scientists will accept it. That is his purpose. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. that is already admitted by educated class. Therefore they are becoming attracted. Dr. Gerson: But there are still many who aren't familiar with the movement and I hope to familiarize them. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. Yes. But I say that even there is something wrong, it is not impediment. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Even if you find in devotee something bad, and his behavior is not in the standard, but because he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no other business, he is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He is sādhu. He is saintly man. Even if you find some defect in his character, because he is sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is saintly. Kṛṣṇa says. How is that, a saintly man has got some this bad character? So that answer is next verse. Dr. Gerson: Many of the defects that the tests might measure are defects that are measured against an insane society that considers itself sane. And so they aren't defects even if they show up. Prabhupāda: Yes, you will find defects. But if the devotees stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, these defects will soon become finished. Revatīnandana: One thing specifically he wants to do in order to counteract this propaganda against the Gurukula which had serious impact, he wants to do some of this testing with the children in a way that is specifically done with children to show that these children are actually happy and they're developing nicely. He wanted to know if that would be permissable for him to do some testing at the Gurukula with the children. Prabhupāda: That depends on your management, how you are raising the children. If they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is all right. So far bodily defects, you might find. But we are denying from the very beginning, "I am not this body." So by finding some bodily defects how you will decide about the spirit? Because spirit is not this body. You cannot conclude that because there are some bodily defects, therefore he has got spiritual defect. That is not right conclusion. The same example: "because there are some dirty things in the Ganges, the Ganges is no more good." That conclusion is wrong. Dr. Gerson: There has been a lot of bad propaganda that the children at Gurukula are unhappy and that they're not developing normally as children or human beings, and I would like to overcome that propaganda by showing that they are. Prabhupāda: Yes, that the managers of the Gurukula, they should take care of. But if they follow the instruction which I have given for conducting Gurukula, then there is no question of... What is the general defect they are finding out? Bahulāśva: No, they are not finding... They are just making up these defects, Prabhupāda? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing they say is that the parents are not allowing the children the freedom to choose whether they want to be trained in this way or not. They are forcing the children to be trained in a very limited view, only Kṛṣṇa. Bahulāśva: And they say that by repetitive chanting... Prabhupāda: That means they do not know Kṛṣṇa means everything. That they do not know. *Bahulāśva: And big professors are saying that just by reading Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam you can learn everything. All the knowledge is given in there. Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic injunction. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. Dr. Gerson: My observation of the children here has been that they've been very happy and that they're very involved in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: At least, they can make this distinction, that our children is not smoking. (laughter) Devotees: Yes. Prabhupāda: And all the school children, they are smoking. So why don't you find this distinction? Revatīnandana: Not only smoking, but they're smoking drugs in the school. Prabhupāda: I have seen children, on the street they are smoking. I was surprised. When I came in America I saw small children, they were smoking. Revatīnandana: One devotee boy, a young boy in Laguna Beach, was telling me that in his school, when he was in high school in Las Vegas, even in the classroom the fifteen, sixteen year old students were smoking marijuana in the classroom of the school. Prabhupāda: In New York University, I think Brahmānanda? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: The students were smoking. Brahmānanda: You were the first one to say, "Please stop smoking. Otherwise I will not speak." They were shocked. They were stunned at such a request. Prabhupāda: So what is the psychology of this? They cannot stop smoking. And smoking is admitted, "It is injurious." So how you will do benefit? If you cannot stop the stop the student from smoking, then how you will do him benefit? You know that smoking is bad. So even if you study from psychological point of view and if you cannot rectify the wrong thing, then what is the use of studying? You cannot stop it. So find out the means how to stop it, and that means is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Dr. Gerson: I've started with myself. My patients are not allowed to smoke in my office. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But these general, the students... You are going to study our students, but you see they are not smoking. Why don't you see...? [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: ...making other people starve by eating so much meat so in the future the other countries might force us to stop eating meat so that we can use the grain to feed people. So actually materially, economically, socially, in every way it is very bad. They are realizing now. Prabhupāda: And they will say that because they are not eating meat, they are weak in health. Dharmādhyakṣa: But their children are not chanting and dancing. You see? In their schools... When people come here and they see the young children chanting and dancing and so energetic, they say, "Where are these children getting their energy?" Prabhupāda: That is real study. Dharmādhyakṣa: So actually their children are being repressed. Their children are being enslaved. Their children are very unhappy. The karmī children, they are unhappy. They are not so lively. They don't talk as much. They don't shout and scream, "Haribol! Haribol!" Their parents always make them be quiet, be quiet, be quiet. So actually our children are free. Dr. Gerson: In this country psychology and psychiatry has become almost like a priesthood, and people look to them for answers. And if one of the people that they take in that way, me, can give them another answer, then perhaps they'll start to turn in another direction, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. *Dharmādhyakṣa: Because the psychologists, they are like the gurus nowadays. Rather than reading philosophy books or religion books, everyone is reading psychology books like this I'm OK, You're OK. It was a big best seller. So now Dr. Gerson, he wants to inject in this psychology field... Anyone who is thinking, "Who am I?" He is reading psychology books. This is supposed to be the science of self*-realization today. So they're actually more influential than philosophers. Prabhupāda: Have they advanced about "Who am I?" Dr. Gerson: So I would like to inject into this system Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very good. If the scientists, philosophers, they take up seriously then it will be good for the general mass of people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ [Bg. 3.21]. You are recognized leaders, so if you help them to accept, that will be great service. Jayatīrtha: Many of them admit that they are very confused, isn't it? Dr. Gerson: Oh, yes, yes. If you put ten psychologists in a room and ask them for their opinion, you'll get ten opinions on the same subject. Bahulāśva: Like munis. So many minds, so many ways. Prabhupāda: Yes. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "If a muni, thoughtful man, hasn't got a different opinion then he is not muni." (laughter) And that is going on. They take it as advancement. There is no standard knowledge. You speak something, and if somebody refutes it with something else, then he is advanced. And then another comes, he becomes more advanced than the second one. And then another comes. So there is no standard knowledge. What is today standard knowledge, tomorrow it is obsolete. Another standard knowledge. So in that way nobody knows what is the standard knowledge. Is it not? Devotee: Yes. *Prabhupāda: But we don't follow that process. We follow one standard knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is our distinction between the ordinary scholars and our... And we are on the safe side because we don't manufacture, speculate. That is troublesome. If I have to defeat you, then I will have to speak so many things. I will have to find out the device how can I defeat you. But we have got one standard knowledge. I may be fool, rascal, but we repeat Kṛṣṇa. So our method is very easy. We are challenging everyone. Just like there are many scientific disciples. So I am not a science man. I have never studied science. But scientists, they are becoming my disciple. From material point of view, I have no education in science, but why the scientist is becoming my disciple? Is he becoming fool? After taking his doctorate title, he is becoming fool so that he is accepting me as spiritual master? Therefore the Vedic injunction is correct when it says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. "If you know Kṛṣṇa perfectly well, then you know everything well." That is the Vedic injunction. So unless you know Kṛṣṇa well, your knowledge is imperfect. In the Bhagavad*-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Veda means knowledge. So there are different departmental knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. All departmental knowledge, when they come to the understanding of Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. So long he does not come to Kṛṣṇa, he is imperfect. That is confirmed in another place: Jayatīrtha: Philosophy means research work. Dr. Gerson: Yes, absolutely, yes. *Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad*-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge, imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg. 10.8]. "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source. So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births, not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births," bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān, "one who is actually advanced in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such research scholar, mahātmā, is very rare." And then He describes in the next verse that what is the symptom of these mahātmās, perfect soul. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: [Bg. 9.13] "They are no more under the control of this material nature, they are fully under the control of spiritual nature." So what is the symptom that he is under spiritual nature, not...? Bhajanty ananya-manaso: "He is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa." Bhajanti, "engaged in service." Bhajanty ananya-manaso: "He has no other business than to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is the symptom of a mahātmā. The Bhagavad-gītā does not say, "One who has got political business, he is mahātmā," no. Mahātmā means bhajanty ananya-manaso: "Without any diversion, simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. That is mahātmā." So everything is there. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in these psychological tests the thing is not that... There's some defects... Naturally there's some defects... Prabhupāda: There must be. Material science means defective. Dharmādhyakṣa: But in the karmī world there are even more defects. You see? Prabhupāda: Yes, the... Dharmādhyakṣa: And the tests would show that in the karmī world there's more... Prabhupāda: ...psychology is philosophy, part of philosophy. So philosophers are better than these fools, karmīs. They are accepted as ass. Karmīs are accepted as the animal ass. Why? Because the ass works day and night without any personal profit. The ass, they work very hard. You have seen ass? And he is working? In India we see very usually. It is loaded with tons of things. He cannot move even. You see. And he agrees to work. And what is his benefit? He gets little grass. But the grass can be had without any working. But this rascal does not know. He agrees to work hard, day and night. So all these karmīs, I have seen in New York, they are working so hard and they are eating only a glass of tea and this dry loaf. Bahulāśva: . Toast. *Prabhupāda: Not toast even. (laughter) Dry loaf? Without any taste, without any value. That also in his table. He cannot go to the... He's busy working. So this is ass. He does not think that "I am working so hard, I am earning so much money. What benefit I am taking? A glass of tea and a loaf? For this I am working so hard? I can get this without any work. Anyone will offer me this glass of tea and loaf. Why I am working so hard?" That sense he hasn't got. Therefore he is ass. Everyone you will see. They are working so hard, they have no time. But what they are enjoying? They are not enjoying even more than ordinary man. But he has no sense, "So for this much benefit I am working so hard?" Therefore he is an ass. A philosopher at least thinks that "Why shall I work so hard for this, only a glass of...?" So therefore he is a little better than these karmīs. Karmī, jñānī. And they are restless because they are falsely thinking that they will get some benefit. They have some aspiration, ambition for getting some benefit. The karmīs they are trying that "I will have so much bank balance, 300,000,000's." He is satisfied to see the bank balance. Although bank balance will not go with him, but he is happy by seeing that "I have got so much bank balance." So they want bank balance only, not enjoyable life. They do not enjoy life. They want to see that "I have so much bank balance, such a high building. I possess this much." They are satisfied. That is not satisfaction. He will never be satisfied. He will want more, more, more. So the karmī has got some demand in his heart. And the jñānī, although they are little advanced more than the karmīs, but they have also demand, that "I shall become merged into the existence of the Supreme." Brahma*-li(?). That is also demand. The yogis, they want to show some magic power and get popularity. So they have also demand. Therefore all these people who have got demands, they cannot be happy. The bhaktas they have no demand, and therefore they are happy. They have no demand. Although the bhaktas are meant for going back to home, back to Godhead, but they don't care for it. "Whether I shall go back to home, back to Godhead, it doesn't matter. I must serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all." That is bhakta. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam: [Brs. 1.1.11] no other desire. They want to see Kṛṣṇa happy. That's all. If Kṛṣṇa is happy, they are happy, bas. They remain in the hell, it doesn't matter. Nārāyaṇa-paraḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. Those who are devotees, they are not afraid of going to hell. They are prepared going to hell, "All right, I shall go to hell and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finished. I want to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So I can do it anywhere. I can do it in this corner. I can do in this building. I can do it in the airplane. I can do it in the hell. I can do it India. I can do it in Los Angeles, anywhere. It doesn't matter what I am or what is my position. I may simply go on chanting. That's all." This is devotee. Therefore he's happy. So happiness is meant for the devotees, not, neither for the karmīs, for the jñānīs, or the yogis. It is the property of the devotees. Just like these devotees are chanting very happily. They are not expecting anything. They are happy by chanting. That's all. But Kṛṣṇa is unhappy if his devotees are not properly maintained. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. You have got Bhagavad-gītā? *Upendra: Ananyāś cintayanto māṁ ye janāḥ paryupāsate, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga*-kṣem... *Prabhupāda: Yoga*-kṣemam. Yes, that's all right, yoga-kṣemam. Read. Prabhupāda: But that requires faith. One who does not know what is God and what is protection, how he can take to it? He depends on his own energy. That is karmīs. He wants to happy by his own energy not only in this life but also next life, by acting very piously, wants to be promoted in the heavenly planets. That is fact. One can go. But that is on account of his own labor. But here the bhaktas, they are taken care of, the Supreme Lord. So just like child. He doesn't care how he will live comfortably. But the father takes care. That is the position of bhakta. The karmīs, they are taking care of themselves. But the devotees, they are taken care of by the Supreme. That is difference. What is that? Jayatīrtha: This is the preliminary outline for the college course that Dr. Judah is going to be helping us with in Berkeley. This describes the basic purposes of the college and describes some of the courses that we'll be offering. Prabhupāda: Our books? Jayatīrtha: Yes, there's a course in each book. Bahulāśva: This is what Dr. Judah belongs to, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Bahulāśva: This is a union of various theological schools. So now in Berkeley we have this very nice building, and we can become a member of this Graduate Theological Union. I have been working with Dr. Judah for about one year, and we've talked about this before. And he said that he will sponsor us. Prabhupāda: So I shall take it? Bahulāśva: Yes, he said that he will sponsor us in this union, and then our devotees can study just your books. Maybe they must take an English course, and that would be all we couldn't offer. Then everything else, they can study from your books. Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if they read my books, they will be benefited. There is no doubt about it. Bahulāśva: Yes. Then they can get a degree recognized by the state of California so they can teach in universities all over the whole country. Prabhupāda: That I want. Do it. We want to give degrees, at least B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., according to the advancement of knowledge. And that will be very much beneficial to your country. Then America will be saved from disaster and it will be the leader. The country will be leader of the whole world. Take this advantage. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are some questions about exactly how to do this college. We will be licensed by the state of California, that is no problem. We can get a license immediately. Prabhupāda: Get it. Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Get it, and the, what is called, syllabus, that we shall give. We have got so many books. We shall select this book for graduate, this book for post*-graduate, and these books for Ph.D.'s. *Dharmādhyakṣa: Even you have different levels. Like they can undergraduately study Bhagavad*-gītā, but in graduate they can study it more intensely, like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in general course they select some passages from some books. So we can do that. Bahulāśva: Yes. We have laid out all your books in this style, just like at a college catalogue. This is all your literatures and then different courses are given there, what subject matter will be covered. Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall make a program, and it may be approved by the professors, and then we will let them study. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's some questions here. Prabhupāda: And there should be one practical examination, not only theoretical, but practical. This will be the chanting and following the regulative principles. (laughter) Otherwise it will not be successful. It will be successful. It will take some time. But if they take help of this practical life it will be very easily successful. Bahulāśva: Not just reading the books but there also must be chanting and following the regulative principles. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will turn your America as Vaikuṇṭha. And that is your duty, to save your countrymen. I think the America is... The people were pious in their past life. They have got this opulent position. Now they should use this opulent position. They have no poverty. They haven't got to work so hard, and they take advantage of this knowledge. Other countries, they are poor. They are busy how to earn their livelihood. But your country, because you are favored on account of your previous pious activities, you should utilize this position. People are embarrassed for improving their economic condition in other countries. Of course, if one is cultured, he is not embarrassed in any condition of life. But without Kṛṣṇa culture, poverty-stricken people, they are very much hampered. So you have no such problem. Therefore you can utilize your position, this opulent position, for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As a learned scholar you should advocate this cause. Why should you waste your time in sense gratification? That is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs. Why this life? That is also... We have described in the Fifth Canto, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. For simply to satisfy the senses, why you should make such a gorgeous program for working? The sense gratification is enjoyed even by the hogs, the stool-eater. This particular animal is mentioned because they are gratifying senses without any discrimination. You will find the hogs eating stool, and they are with mothers and sister and have sex life, that's all. They have no discrimination. So this kind of sense gratification is there in the hog's life. So are the human beings to imitate the hog's life? This is the question. So they are imitating the hog's life, all the human being. This is the defect. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. Working so hard day and night, and only sex, that's all. This is life's enjoyment? This is a hog's life. And what else they have got happiness? We challenge them, "Except this happiness of sex, what other happiness you have got?" There is no answer. So this is being done by the hogs. Whole day and night they are searching after, "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon he gets the stool and they have sex, that's all. Is that civilization, hog's life? And what is civilization? That is tapo divyam: "Just undergo austerities for realizing God." That is civilization. Work very hard similarly, but for Kṛṣṇa and not for imitating the hogs. Now, why I should be interested in for God realization? Yes, you should be. You must be. Why? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva: [SB 5.5.1] "By becoming Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your existentional constitution will be purified." What is that purification? Purīfication means because you are now impure, you are subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore you require treatment to cure this disease. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam. And if you cure this disease, then-you are after happiness*-you will get transcendental bliss and enjoy it eternally. This is human life. Everything is discussed in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ anantam [SB 5.5.1]. Anantam means unlimited. You are searching after happiness, but this is limited. Even if you enjoy sex life, that is also limited for a few moments. But anantam. That is... You will enjoy it eternally. Just Kṛṣṇa is dancing with the gopīs. He is enjoying eternally. So you can join with Him. That information we are giving. Just imagine what a valuable service we are rendering. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva [SB 5.5.1]. Your existence is impure. Therefore you are undergoing the tribulation of birth, death, old age, and disease. But they are not making any research how to stop. Nobody wants to die. Why he is dying? Where is the solution? Can the psychologists give any solution, that "You think in this way"? No. That we are giving: "Think of Kṛṣṇa and you will become free." Jayatīrtha: Jaya. Yes. *Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is. Dr. Gerson: That's what psychology's been trying to teach people: to do whatever they want to do because they have the power. Prabhupāda: That's... But can he do anything as he likes? Dr. Gerson: That's right. *Prabhupāda: If he... As he likes, if he infects some disease, he must suffer from the disease. Where is his independence? If you infect some disease, infectious disease, then you must suffer from the disease. That is nature's law. So where is your independence? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa*-saṅgo 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. It is all described. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Why there are so many varieties of life? Because he has associated with a particular type of modes of nature and he has got the body. Without any human sense he has learned to eat anything and everything, without any discrimination. Therefore nature will give the body of a pig. "All right, you eat anything up to stool. Up to stool you can eat." So how can you stop it? And because nature has given this body, he is relishing very good taste from stool. But this body, you cannot relish what is enjoyment in the stool. But because he has no discrimination of food, nature has given him, "All right, you can eat up to stool." Human life is meant for civilization, and they are trying to be naked. So next life will be: "All right, you remain naked standing as tree for five thousand years." How can you stop it? Wherefrom these varieties of life are coming? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. This is kāraṇam, that he is associating with different modes of material nature and he is getting a suitable body. So where is that science to understand this subtle work of nature? Where is that science? Where is that education in the universities? You are not free. You cannot say "that I shall live life like this." You can live, but take the risk of next life. Therefore they avoid this question: "There is no next life." That is very horrible. But that does not mean... Just like the, what is that animal? Closes the eyes? Jayatīrtha: Ostrich. Prabhupāda: Ostrich. When there is danger, it closes eyes: "No danger." But that does not mean no danger. The danger is there. You may close your eyes. This is going on. The whole education system is foolish. Because they are thinking independent. Bahulāśva: Now we can change that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with this college. We can get our men in all religious departments. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty, to give them knowledge. The knowledge is there. The candidates are there. Only the guardians should be sane, that "Save the children." Otherwise they will produce only hippies. That's all. [break] So long you will work on the mental plane, then the tendency will be that "Let me refute you, and I become prominent." And he will think that "Let me refute him. I become." This business will go on. But there will be no end of philosophy. So what is the use of such philosophy, simply continually go on mentally speculating, no conclusion? Philosophy means, "Here is the conclusion." Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. Dr. Judah said in our whole course we can just defeat them, but we must know what they think also. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that's all right. That you should know. They are advertised as big philosophers, so at least we can prove that they are not big philosophers. The big philosopher is Kṛṣṇa. Bahulāśva: Jaya. Prabhupāda: That's all. *Bahulāśva: In Īśopaniṣad you say, "The self*-sufficient philosophy. That is Kṛṣṇa." Dharmādhyakṣa: Also, should this college have men and woman or just men? Prabhupāda: No, why? Everyone. We have no such discrimination. But not cats and dogs. (laughter) Human being. Never mind what he is. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpur you were speaking about you wanted Māyāpur to become a college for the University of Calcutta? Prabhupāda: No, why Māyāpur? Everywhere. The whole educational system should be changed. Bahulāśva: We should take it over. Prabhupāda: Not changed. At least this will remain as a departmental knowledge. Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: It is not possible to make wholesale change, but at least let them accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a departmental knowledge. *Bahulāśva: We were wondering if Ravīndra*-svārupa could come and help on this project. Because if we can get established in Berkeley first... It's such a big university. Prabhupāda: Yes, do that. Bahulāśva: We could be respected everywhere else. Prabhupāda: Do that. Whoever can help this. Jayatīrtha: We need to have a certain number of Ph.D.'s, is it? Bahulāśva: We need at least five. Prabhupāda: Five Ph.D.'s? Bahulāśva: Ph.D.'s to start. Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got. We have got Ph.D. Dharmādhyakṣa: We need five to be accredited. We don't need five to start, but to get accreditation. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. How many we have got? *Jayatīrtha: Ravīndra*-svārupa is one, and Svarūpa Dāmodara is two. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ravīndra*-svārupa is not yet a Ph.D. Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh. How long? Another year yet. Prabhupāda: They said, no, that they have got five, six Ph.D.'s Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mādhava. Jayatīrtha: Richard. And Dr. Judah will be one? Bahulāśva: If you like, Dr. Judah said he will help teaching in this? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Bahulāśva: You like, Dr. Judah said he will help? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If he appreciates our movement, then he can become. Dharmādhyakṣa: So what we need, Prabhupāda, is whoever has an advanced degree to come to the college and to teach. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Dharmādhyakṣa: Like even Dāmodara here, prabhu. He has a master's degree. Prabhupāda: He has already proposed that he wants to give up his service and fully work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jayatīrtha: Svarūpa Dāmodara? Prabhupāda: Yes. This... Just now we have received that letter. He doesn't like. He is now realizing, "What I am searching after, false thing?" Devotees: Jaya! Dharmādhyakṣa: If Svarūpa Dāmodara could come, that would be very good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmādhyakṣa: This Dr. Gerson, he comes to āratik and he likes to chant and dance. Prabhupāda: This doctor? Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: So convert him also to be a devotee. Then that is another PhD. Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, yes. He said he would love to come and teach at our college. *Prabhupāda: Very good. But he must give up his bad habits, illicit sex, meat*-eating. At least they must give up. Dharmādhyakṣa: He is giving them up. He says that he is becoming more sensitive. Prabhupāda: If he chants, then he is purified. Dharmādhyakṣa: He realizes this. All his psychologist friends, they are just crazy. They are not solving any problem. Prabhupāda: So that's all right. (end Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles Harikeśa: Morning walk, L.A., June 22nd. [break] *Jayatīrtha: ...palace, fifty*-five rooms. Each room is big size with a marble fireplace and the floors are marble and there's a marble winding staircase and several big rooms. And it's got its own chapel, very beautiful. And then the land is very beautiful, 250 acres, as far as you can see. Prabhupāda: So it is worth taking? Jayatīrtha: It seems to be. The price seems to be about the right price. Prabhupāda: So down payment has been made? Jayatīrtha: Yes, it's already... It's now in our name. It's been transferred. Prabhupāda: And when they are moving? Jayatīrtha: Some devotees have already moved. Prabhupāda: Oh. It is vacant, vacant? Jayatīrtha: It was vacant, yes. Well, the old owner, he is keeping one room in the building for the time being. The man who sold it to us, he's a very..., Sort of a pious gentleman. He's doing humanitarian work. He's a war hero. Prabhupāda: War hero? Jayatīrtha: Yes. In the last war. (Prabhupāda laughs) So he is also helping us. He has a big factory next to the land and he's letting us use it for the incense business. So he's doing some good service. Prabhupāda: What is that factory? Jayatīrtha: He employs these alcoholics and derelicts in different kinds of work, making things. And he was keeping these people living in this palace, but now he's built another place next door where he keeps them and he has them employed. It's sort of an Alcoholics Anonymous group. Prabhupāda: Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they will be rectified. Jayatīrtha: Yes, that's a best thing. Bhagavān hopes eventually to convert them. Anyway, it's a very beautiful place. Especially this time of year, it's very beautiful. Prabhupāda: How long it takes to go there from Paris? Jayatīrtha: About two and a half hours. Prabhupāda: Hm. Two and a half hours? And what is the nearest town? Jayatīrtha: It's near Lyons, Orleans, Orleans. Prabhupāda: Oh. How far it is from our palace? Jayatīrtha: About half an hour, I think. It is between several big towns. And it's very centrally located for saṅkīrtana all over France. Prabhupāda: Oh, we can go here and there. Jayatīrtha: Yeah. They're going to use that as the saṅkīrtana base for our traveling saṅkīrtana all over France. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jayatīrtha: Parties will go out for a few weeks and then come back. So it's very good. Prabhupāda: What is the climate now? It is cold? Jayatīrtha: It's nice during the day and a little cold at night. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: Europe is always cold. Prabhupāda: Huh? Europe is always cold. Jayatīrtha: Always cold. But this palace is in a fairly warm zone. It's got some sort of breeze coming from the Mediterranean Sea, I think. Anyway, it keeps it a little warmer than most places. And it does not snow very much during the winter, they say. Besides the palace, there are some other buildings also. One place they are going to use for a gośāla, and one place for a Gurukula. And then several householder houses. Prabhupāda: And the land for farming? Jayatīrtha: Yes, at least half the land is good for farming. It's level and there's a good water supply. Prabhupāda: There is some river? Jayatīrtha: No, there's no river, but there's a... Prabhupāda: Waterfall? Jayatīrtha: ...pond there. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...fifty devotees in Paris now. So that temple there is very crowded. Impossible. Prabhupāda: So, why not some of them moved? Jayatīrtha: Yes, that's their plan. [break] ...enough for several hundred devotees very easily. [break] They're letting us through in the mornings for nothing now, I think, unless this man is going to nip us. [break] Prabhupāda: Why? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was in maṅgala āratik. I don't know where he is now. [break] Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda is not come? Nobody knows why? [break] Devotees: He was in maṅgala āratik. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was not dancing very much, though. So maybe he was not... [break] *Rādhā*-ballabha: Here comes Brahmānanda. Prabhupāda: How he comes? (laughing) He is running. Oh, another car? Bahulāśva: Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This not like Juhu. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...Mahārāja feeling separation of māyāpur. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's transcendental. *Prabhupāda: He has constructed Māyāpur. This is very good. Āsaktis tad*-vasati-sthale. If one becomes attracted in the place of Kṛṣṇa-place of Kṛṣṇa everywhere-especially where His līlā was performed... So Brahmānanda, why late today? Brahmānanda: I was in the temple, chanting. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: I didn't think you would come so early. Prabhupāda: It is early? Brahmānanda: Well, earlier than yesterday. Prabhupāda: No, I don't think. What is the time? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ten minutes to six. Jayatīrtha: Yesterday you left about 5:40 and today you left exactly at 5:30. So... Brahmānanda: I came just after you left. Prabhupāda: I think your watch is slow. (laughter) [break] ...actual time now? Jayatīrtha: It's 5:51. Prabhupāda: Hm? What is my? Jayatīrtha: Your's is about one minute faster. Prabhupāda: And what is your? Brahmānanda: 5:53. Prabhupāda: Fast. [break] ...in my childhood, I remember, I went to see football match in the Maidan. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta Maidan. *Prabhupāda: Yes. So when I was returning*-of course, I was walking-throughout the whole... At that time our house was that Mullik's house. So from Maidan to Mahatma Gandhi Road I came. And all the watches throughout the road, the same time. Means every watch was, every clock was wrong. But I was going, so I, suppose I saw 5:10 here, then few steps away, 5:10, 5:10, 5:10, like that. Bhavānanda: Not any more. Prabhupāda: Huh? Bhavānanda: In Calcutta it's not that way any more. Prabhupāda: That's very strict in time? Bhavānanda: No, every clock is hours off. (laughter) From each other. Prabhupāda: Hours? (laughs) Bhavānanda: Hours. Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...today? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think in Los Angeles it is always... Prabhupāda: Always. Dharmādhyakṣa: The month of June, Prabhupāda, in California is very cloudy. [break] It was one of the few days that it was sunny. Prabhupāda: Hawaii is clear. Hawaii is clear. Every day we used to see sun. Jayatīrtha: Very beautiful there. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: India is like that also. Prabhupāda: [break] ...sinners. Revatīnandana: I think it is a joke, though. Jayadvaita: Then again commit sins. They'll repent and commit them again. Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Atonement. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whenever we meet the Christians, they always say that "It doesn't matter because Jesus came to save us from our sins. So now it doesn't matter because we're saved." Prabhupāda: Then Jesus is a fool, and he has taken contract to suffer, and these people are free to commit sin. Dharmādhyakṣa: Jesus actually said... *Prabhupāda: And they are so clever that they can make God's son also fool. Over*-clever. Dharmādhyakṣa: [break] ...always said, "Your sins are forgiven you, go and sin no more." He always gave that injunction, "Go and sin no more." [break] Prabhupāda: ...is no description of sins in Bible? What are the sins? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Killing, adultery, stealing. They mention it. Jayatīrtha: There are Ten Commandments. Prabhupāda: That is. Dharmādhyakṣa: Worship of demigods. They also say, "Putting any god in front of the one Supreme God." Worshiping matter. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Berkeley there's this one demon, so*-called Christian, and every day he comes out and he stands behind us with a big sign that "You will not achieve anything by your mantras and meditation." And he calls us idol worshipers. And now he writing these big signs, "Don't chant Hare Kṛṣṇa with them." He chanting... He's writing, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and he's telling... (laughter) Prabhupāda: You charge, "Why you are chanting?" [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...day he stands behind us for two hours to three hours of kīrtana. He's becoming one of our men now. (laughter) [break] Revatīnandana: ...used to do that but he never came around. He used to be out there every day in Los Angeles for years. *Dharmādhyakṣa: Prabhupāda? The father of the H*-bomb, the man who developed the H-bomb, he retired a week ago, and he said he was very sad that the young people were becoming disgusted with science nowadays, and all the young scientists, they are not as good as the old scientists. They have no desire any more really. Revatīnandana: Edward Teller? Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. Teller retired. Prabhupāda: Who is he? Dharmādhyakṣa: His name is Edward Teller. Prabhupāda: So what he is? *Revatīnandana: He's famous for inventing the H*-bomb. He invented the hydrogen bomb. Revatīnandana: Hydrogen bomb. He was the main inventor. Prabhupāda: Oh. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a survey of these psychologists, young psychologists, and they asked them whether or not they would like to do research. And the vast majority of the psychologists said no, they don't want to do any research. They don't like to do research because it's all a joke. They don't prove anything. They figure it's a waste of time. [break] Prabhupāda: ...nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam:" You cannot become a philosopher unless you disagree with other philosopher." Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. [break] ...something drown? Sudāmā: Yes, they destroyed an amusement park there, and that got stuck in the water. Prabhupāda: Oh. Why destroy? Sudāmā: No one was coming any more. Prabhupāda: All amusement finished. Sudāmā: Yes. Dharmādhyakṣa: They did that to get insurance money? Prabhupāda: [break] ...they are becoming disappointed in science, philosophy, amusement. That is good sign. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: ...we go to colleges, the young people that are working on Ph.D.'s, they are very... (laughs) They say, "We're doing all this research but you can't prove a thing." I ask them, "Well, this experiment, you know, what will it prove?" He says, "Well, it indicates this, it indicates that, but really doesn't prove anything." Prabhupāda: (laughs) It proves only that he's a fool. That is the only... Dharmādhyakṣa: I talked to a very nice Indian gentleman. He's a life member. He's a young Ph.D. in chemistry, Dr. Bhatt. He dedicated his Ph.D. thesis to Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? *Dharmādhyakṣa: Yes. And he quoted īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac*-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. And I asked him, "What is the practical result of your research?" He said, "Maybe in twenty years they'll find some way to use the research that I am working on." Prabhupāda: So he has dedicated to Kṛṣṇa, very good. [break] ...also dedicated, our Dr. S..., yes, to Kṛṣṇa. *Dharmādhyakṣa: I was very surprised. I was at his home, and I opened it up, and it said "Dedicated to Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Scientist." He quoted Brahma*-saṁhitā. [break] Prabhupāda: Dr. Wolfe also believes in Kṛṣṇa very strongly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had a talk with him yesterday? Prabhupāda: He said "I believe in Kṛṣṇa unconditionally." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is his specialty? Prabhupāda: He is a linguist, Ph.D. in linguist. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, linguistics. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Dr. Judah also says like that, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Bahulāśva: Yes. He was coming to hear Viṣṇujana and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa do kīrtana, every day at Berkeley. He said he liked to come and hear the chanting very much. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he comes every day. *Bahulāśva: He was very impressed with the bus. He was seeing Rādhā*-Dāmodara bus. He was very impressed. Revatīnandana: So whenever a devotee visits him, he is very pleased to see the devotees come and visit him also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: At his office. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a devotee. Nice devotee. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatīnandana: He's been also to Māyāpur, I think, and Vṛndāvana, and he's associated with you before. So he's had a lot of good association. Prabhupāda: Yes, he saw Tīrtha Mahārāja, Bon Mahārāja. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he met them. Bahulāśva: He told me that if he was not so entangled with family life, he would want to take sannyāsa. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He is family man? Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: No, so what is the anxiety? We can take charge of their family. How old he is? *Bahulāśva: He's about sixty*-five. He's just getting ready to retire. He's retiring this year. Prabhupāda: So retire. Dharmādhyakṣa: He's in very good health, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Bahulāśva: We spoke with him that when we incorporate Berkeley temple as a university, he can be affiliated with that, and he thought that would be very nice. Prabhupāda: Oh. So let him help that our center be affiliated. Bahulāśva: Yes. We were thinking if it was, if it pleased Your Divine Grace, maybe he could teach one class in his book, and we can have some students come there. Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. Bahulāśva: That would be all right? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dharmādhyakṣa: There's this one psychologist. He comes every week to study Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he plays some of the bhajana tapes in his office. And there's twenty doctors in his office, and he plays it so all the doctors can hear. And they all come in and ask him, "What is that wonderful music?" He says, "Oh, this is from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." He says, "No, that can't be from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They just chant and dance on the street the same thing." He says, "No, no, no, this is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They are very, very pleased. He gives all his patients mantra cards and tells them, "You should go to the temple. This will really help you." [break] Prabhupāda: This is nudie beach? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The nude beach. Revatīnandana: It used to be. Bahulāśva: ...on one side Revatīnandana: At one time they made it legal to be nude here, and then later on, they repealed the law again. Jayatīrtha: Venice? It is still nude, Venice Beach. Revatīnandana: Is it still? Really. Jayatīrtha: You can either come wearing clothes or not wearing clothes to this beach. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lucky we come early. Sudāmā: Just like the monkeys. Revatīnandana: Oh, it was in Laguna that they repealed it. Prabhupāda: But why, then, the lavatory they have made distinction for woman and for men? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now in the colleges there's no more distinction. *Jayatīrtha: Co*-educational bathrooms. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One bathroom. One residence, one bathroom... Revatīnandana: The boys and girls live in the same residence on the same floors and use the same bathrooms. Practically there is no restriction on the association. They're not married. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Congress just passed a law that the health education, means the gym, gymnastic classes... Every day there's physical education class? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Must be co*-educational. They must be. They passed a law like that. Dharmādhyakṣa: Soon they'll get so disgusted with this association, they'll all want to become brahmacārīs. Revatīnandana: When we noticed that this amusement pier was torn down, I didn't think that it meant that they were less interested in amusement, but they have become more degraded in their approach. The amusement pier... They come here instead to be naked on the beach for their amusement. Or they stay home and use intoxicants mostly. That is increasing. [break] ...like a prostitute house. And almost every place they are, not even one part of the city anymore, but you see them everywhere. Prabhupāda: The woman gives massage? Revatīnandana: Yes. Always advertising, "Beautiful young girls to massage you." Dharmādhyakṣa: This is open prostitution now. They advertise very, very, very badly. Bahulāśva: We had a hearing in Berkeley for our temple, whether or not we could live there, and some neighbors were saying that "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people are no good because they don't have any sex life and don't take any intoxication." Jayatīrtha: "They hate sex, they hate women, they hate drugs..." Bahulāśva: They said, "They are too pure. They will make this whole place... They'll take over this whole place." Devotee: "They'll convert the whole neighborhood." Dharmādhyakṣa: "They're trying to subvert and infiltrate our philosophy into their neighborhood." Prabhupāda: So they are coming to know what we are. (laughter) Woman: (in distance) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Mexican Woman: Good morning. Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Prabhupāda: Good morning. Revatīnandana: The Mexican people are always a little appreciative. They naturally believe in God. Prabhupāda: Give them invitations. Today is Sunday. *Bahulāśva: Yes, Cit*-sukhānanda is speaking with them. Prabhupāda: No, you have no card? Love feast card? Give them, that "come." *Jagannātha*-suta: Jayatīrtha has one. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is our enemy, it means Hare Kṛṣṇa is acting upon him. Yes. Bahulāśva: Like Kaṁsa. Prabhupāda: Yes. (chuckles) Kāmāt bhayāt krodhāt. Either for lust desires or out of fear, out of anger, some way or other, if one is attached to Kṛṣṇa, his life will be nice. So enemy means krodhāt, being angry upon us. "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people does like that." So he is angry. But that will also be effective. Krodhāt. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa is so merciful. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Revatīnandana: One day in London a woman came to try to drag her daughter from the temple. She came into the temple room with her shoes on, and one devotee... She would not remove her shoes, so the devotee pulled off her shoes and she fell down. It was almost like she bowed down. She became so angry, she was shouting in front of the Deities, and I dragged her out and had to wrestle her out of the temple, literally wrestling with her to get her out the door. And she came back in with a policeman, and she pretended to have a fainting spell because we had beaten her so badly, she said. And so she said, "Get me some water," but we didn't have any water, so we have her some milk prasādam, and she drank it without thinking what it was. And so in so many ways*-she saw the Deities, she had prasādam, and then she left again, and all this, completely out of anger, but her anger was so strong that she got a lot of association because of it. She was so energetic, I think she could become a devotee some day. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...in America from India. They are so much impressed, Śrīla Prabhupāda. But the most impressive thing for these life members is to come to America and see our institutions. They have letters of introduction. They don't want to live in the temple generally, but they come to see. Prabhupāda: The other, that member, the same? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Different men. I know. I made these men life members in Bombay, and I happened to be in Washington D.C. when they came there. And they attend the āratis, you know. It's very nice. They are very, very impressed. Revatīnandana: When Kartikeya Mahadevia came to America some time back, he remarked to me that he had come to see all the sights like the Grand Canyon and like that, but primarily he seemed, now he was just simply going from temple to temple because the temples were nice. Nothing else was so nice as he expected. Bahulāśva: Some life members came to San Francisco, and we picked them up in this Mercedes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's him, that same man. Bahulāśva: And they were so impressed that we had such a nice car for greeting the life members. (laughter) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They talked about that. It's the same man I met in Washington D.C., Mr. Poddar. Bahulāśva: Mr. Poddar, yes. They said, "Oh, this is the life member car." Prabhupāda: One gentleman came to see me in Hawaii. He's also life member. Harikeśa: Ramesh Lahoti. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Mr. Lahoti. Yeah, actually... Prabhupāda: Yes, he knows you very well. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually, that plan to have a tour is a very good plan if it can be arranged. Because if they get convinced here by seeing this, then, when they go there, they'll speak so highly to so many people. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think that they think that we're bluffing to some extent, but when they come here, they see actually it's not just the pictures that we are showing, but there's something substantial behind the picture. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: ...the colleges and high schools now that the teachers appreciate the philosophy much more than the students. They have more brain substance, and it's even a possibility many of them will actually become devotees if they have more association because devotees are practically the only intelligent people that they ever get to talk to. Even the other members of the faculty, they are not so intelligent to talk to them. But we went to see one philosopher. He's written seventeen books and he's a distinguished professor of philosophy. We talked to him for three hours, a very famous... His books are used all over the country. He said, "My philosophy is closest to this Hare Kṛṣṇa philosophy, after you've explained it to me." He will be coming back. He's going on tour. He's retiring. We're also going to try to get him to come to Berkeley. Revatīnandana: Is that the one at Pomona College? Dharmādhyakṣa: No, this is another one at U.S.C., University of Southern California. Prabhupāda: So some professors wanted to see me? Jayatīrtha: Yes. In fact, one is coming over this afternoon. Brahmānanda: Today two are coming. Dharmādhyakṣa: Actually at the University of Southern California around three or four members of the religion department want to come, including the chairman. Prabhupāda: So let them come. [break] Bahulāśva: ...yesterday that Indian gentleman, Dr. Singh? He had become very doubtful when you told him they didn't go to the moon. He was saying, "Do you think they really didn't go?" (laughter) He never thought of that before, that they might have just made a show. Prabhupāda: No. If we believe in our Bhāgavata, they have not gone. It is above the sun planet, 1,600,000 miles above. How they can go? Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, at night, when we see in the sky that moon, that is the same moon that is above the sun? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Yes? So their miscalculations are due to their imperfect senses. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I told Mādhava dāsa in Atlanta that you had said that the sun is actually closer than the moon, and he immediately was able to prove that that is correct. He sat down and he, "Oh..." He was able to prove something by the way they are measuring... They are measuring the distance incorrectly in terms of bending light rays and straight light rays. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: Sometimes the moon comes in front of the sun. Prabhupāda: What is the front? Brahmānanda: Between the sun and the earth the moon comes. *Jagannātha*-suta: Lunar eclipse. Prabhupāda: No, no. Eclipse is different, not according to their theory. That planet is called Rahu. Devotees: Ah yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not the moon. That's Rahu. Revatīnandana: So Rahu covers sometimes the sun and sometimes the moon? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: This Rahu planet's invisible? We cannot see this with our eyes? Prabhupāda: Yes. Why you believe your eyes so much? (laughter) Nonsense eyes. Dharmādhyakṣa: There's this psychology book, and he says that the light spectrum is this long, and that we can see this much of the spectrum of energy. Very nice, this book makes many points that agree with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy. Bahulāśva: So, Prabhupāda, you say that these astronauts have gone to the Rahu planet. Prabhupāda: Yes, they might. That is also very difficult. Bahulāśva: I was trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and this astronaut, Dr. Mitchell, and also this other famous scientist, Werner von Braun. But they are on the east coast at this time, so they couldn't come. But they both wrote nice letters that they would like to meet you if they could be in California at the same time. Revatīnandana: This von Braun is a big rocket scientist from the old days. He designed the V-2 missile in Germany during World War II, and then he designed the American missiles during the space program. Prabhupāda: What benefit he has done? Revatīnandana: Well, he's recently said... He retired, and he said now he thinks the only purpose of life is to research about God, to find out about God. He's very famous, so... *Prabhupāda: That is good. They have finished already science. Now if they do not come to God, then they are finished. They have nothing to say any more. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is Vedānta. Now they have finished all their so*-called talent. Now they have to come to brahma-jijñāsā, inquiry about the Supreme. That is their concern now. Now they have cheated public and bluffed them, they are going to this, going to this, but they are all failures. Now they are anxious how to keep their position. That is the problem. Bahulāśva: They get lots of money for their position, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Because if they are not employed by government with big, big salaries, who will care for them, scientists? Hundreds of scientists may wander or walk in the street. Who will recognize him unless he has got money? I have seen in India. So many scientists are loitering in the street without any employment. Who cares for them? Dharmādhyakṣa: They will have to go on welfare, Prabhupāda, pretty soon. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But a saintly person, even he has no money, people care. *Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. [break] ...Paṇḍita says, vidvat tvaṁ ca nṛpatvaṁ ca naiva tulyam kadācana: "A rich man, or a king, and a learned man, learned vidvān, they should not be compared. There is no comparison." Why? Sva*-deśe pūjyate rājā. "A rich man or a king may be worshiped in his kingdom," vidvān sarvatra pūjyate, "and if a man is learned, he will be worshiped everywhere." Therefore, he says, "Never compare with rich man with learned man." Bahulāśva: Therefore it's very important that all the devotees study your books so they become learned. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād [SB 1.7.6]. This is the learning only, to keep them saved from this illusory material energy. [break] ...means knowledge, and this Bhāgavatam is the essence cream of Vedas. Nigama*-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalaṁ [SB 1.1.3]. Nigama means Vedas, and this is the galitaṁ phalaṁ, ripened fruit of the tree. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's one professor... [break] Prabhupāda: ...drags the home. [break] ...living? Jayatīrtha: No. Maybe he is. I think in, he was in Switzerland or some place. [break] Prabhupāda: ...make research about God. Somebody told me? *Brahmānanda: Yeah. Dr. Werner von Braun. That has been his conclusion now, at the end of his career. He is interested in meditation and self*-realization. (end) Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles Brahmānanda: He wants to go to India. Prabhupāda: Oh. Brahmānanda: They were not participating so much in devotional life. So now he wants to resume his... Prabhupāda: He can go to Māyāpur. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: They produce fruit so big, these palm... They are palm trees, they are not coconut. Jayatīrtha: No, they're not coconut palms. Just regular palm trees. They have some kernel or something, palm kernel. [break] Prabhupāda: ...killed the Gardhabhāsura in the palm forest. The fruit is so tasteful but the cowherds boy could not enter the forest on account of this demon. Brahmānanda: Which demon was that? Jayatīrtha: Dhenukāsura. Prabhupāda: Dhenuka... Not Dhenukāsura. Gardhabhāsura. Dhenukāsura also, they come? Brahmānanda: That was that ass. Prabhupāda: Ass, ass, yes. [break] Jayatīrtha: Here there are many date palms, very high producer of dates. Prabhupāda: Just see. In the desert there are so nice fruit. Jayatīrtha: (laughs) Topsy turvy. Prabhupāda: Dates are so nice, sweet. [break] ...is so kind. Brahmānanda: He provides. [break] Prabhupāda: Where is Bahulāśva? I have read that your program. What is that? College of Vedic Science? Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: So what is the actual program? Bahulāśva: That was not completed, Prabhupāda. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON, and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured. Prabhupāda: That's nice. [break] How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed? Bahulāśva: Who has...? Dharmādhyakṣa has done the analytical breakdown. Prabhupāda: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want your direction on how to actually do it. Prabhupāda: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow? Bahulāśva: Uh huh. Prabhupāda: Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the particular, specific qualification of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing? Dharmādhyakṣa: Well, that's why they want us to join. Prabhupāda: But we cannot join like that way. Dharmādhyakṣa: Oh, no. On our own standards. Bahulāśva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him. Bahulāśva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately. Prabhupāda: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guṇā. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value. Dharmādhyakṣa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that? Prabhupāda: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective. Dharmādhyakṣa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brāhmaṇas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working. *Bahulāśva: Two āratiks a day, sixteen rounds*-these would be also course requirements. Dharmādhyakṣa: In the study of theology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. [break] Bahulāśva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting... *Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We... That chant, that ācamana mantra? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotee. *Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmaṇya*-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-hitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brāhmaṇa means having a two cents thread. Not that brāhmaṇa. Vipratve sūtram eva ca. "To become a brāhmaṇa, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brāhmaṇa: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brāhmaṇa. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. [break] ...giving sacred thread on the Pāñcarātriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; *then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire*-he wants to get Kṛṣṇa consciousness-so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act. Brahmānanda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: If that stops... Prabhupāda: Then it is finished. *Bahulāśva: That verse is from Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam? Prabhupāda: Which verse? Bahulāśva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo*-guṇa. And smoke means rajo-guṇa, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guṇa. So you have to go still above. That is called śuddha-sattva-guṇa. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upāsate. That is stated in the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again māyā. There are two things: Kṛṣṇa and māyā. If Kṛṣṇa fire is extinguished, then māyā, ignorance, darkness. Two things. Harikeśa: I know that verse. Prabhupāda: That's... You know it eternally? Harikeśa: I hope so. Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that māyāra nāhi adhikāra, no more jurisdiction of māyā. That is perfect. Bahulāśva: We must keep very high standards. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21]. There is also, vegetable. Revatīnandana: Seaweed. Sudāmā: Clams. Jayatīrtha: It's full of barnacles. Revatīnandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs. Prabhupāda: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now? Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. [break] ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of... *Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali*-yuga means actually there is no brāhmaṇa, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brāhmaṇa, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. [break] Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." [break] Theological Union, when it was started. Dharmādhyakṣa: Nineteen... Prabhupāda: '62. Dharmādhyakṣa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union. Brahmānanda: When was the union started? Bahulāśva: 1952, I think. Prabhupāda: '62. Bahulāśva: No, '52 I think. The date is in that book. Prabhupāda: I think it is '62. So what is the result? Bahulāśva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union because all these other groups are dried up. *Prabhupāda: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. [break] ...kārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformation, that makes a twice*-born. [break] ...na jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. Everyone is born śūdra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is śūdra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved vipraḥ. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brāhmaṇa. This is the process. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And then, after becoming a brāhmaṇa, when he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes Vaiṣṇava. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatām api siddhānām, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Kṛṣṇa. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...headquarter (Hindi)? Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco (Hindi), southern peninsula. (Hindi) Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. [break] We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process? Indian guest: No. *Prabhupāda: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. [break] ...nineteen hundred fifty*-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing? Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation). Brahmānanda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it. Prabhupāda: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it? *Bahulāśva: On the strength of Bhagavad*-gītā. Prabhupāda: That's it. Vedic science. Dharmādhyakṣa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money. *Prabhupāda: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so*-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out. Devotees: (laughter) Jaya! *Nalinī*-kantha: Then they can work in the field. Prabhupāda: All impractical. Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this. *Prabhupāda: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... [break] Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad*-guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. "One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Kṛṣṇa conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that. *Prabhupāda: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so*-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not? Satsvarūpa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science." Prabhupāda: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly? Satsvarūpa: No, we have our own science. Prabhupāda: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara has said, "Kṛṣṇa, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist. Bahulāśva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it. Prabhupāda: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; *still, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the śāstra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Kṛṣṇa. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brāhmaṇa, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner*-his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that. Brahmānanda: Tagore? Prabhupāda: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich but a descendant of rich. [break] ...became so enamored by the western people that there is a song, yo kūṭeko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uṣka mutton chop bānāiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy." This is their philosophy. Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotees, but... Prabhupāda: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) [break] ...Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gitanjali? Indian guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Is it not like...? Indian guest: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know. Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee. Prabhupāda: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable. Brahmānanda: He says in that Gitanjali that the most beautiful creation of God... Prabhupāda: Is woman. Brahmānanda: Yes. (laughter) Jayādvaita: That's tumi. Prabhupāda: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman. Indian guest: That's lust or maybe passion... *Prabhupāda: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog*-the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass-most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says, Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is... Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Why do you say here? Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different. Prabhupāda: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty. Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit. Prabhupāda: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You're abnormal. Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level. Prabhupāda: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great. Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real... Prabhupāda: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company. Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist. Prabhupāda: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi. Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God. Prabhupāda: No, no, he does not know that Kṛṣṇa is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it. Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something... Prabhupāda: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan he did not believe Kṛṣṇa. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says, "Here I am." They won't believe. That is the difficulty. Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sādhu. In India I run into hundreds of sādhus, and I donate some money, but completely... Well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathurā and I go to any temple, Badnatham(?), and those people only they are after money. Prabhupāda: Yes. Indian guest: This has been over the... I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places. Prabhupāda: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter) Brahmānanda: Has a house. Jayatīrtha: That's a very fortunate crab. Prabhupāda: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. [break] What is their attempt about going to Venus? Brahmānanda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some... Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon. Brahmānanda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus? Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft. Prabhupāda: Huh? Man craft? Indian guest: Unmanned craft. Prabhupāda: What is that man craft? Harikeśa: Just one ship without any people inside. Indian guest: With instruments in there. Prabhupāda: That they did in respect of moon also. Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah. Prabhupāda: Then why it is failure? Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge? Jayādvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. [break] Prabhupāda: Why they are attempting to go there? Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out... Prabhupāda: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being. Brahmānanda: It's a big business. Prabhupāda: And bluffed. That is usefulness. Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine. Bahulāśva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupāda, they cannot make food grow without rain. Prabhupāda: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do? These foolish rascals. Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So... Jayatīrtha: Yes, Kṛṣṇa has no shortage of energy. Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came and full of energy and... I'm not saying that's good, but... We can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. [break] Prabhupāda: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water but it is kept in air. Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment. *Prabhupāda: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Kṛṣṇa, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. [break] ...philosophy is, it is said, that bhaktim... śreya*-sṛtiṁ bhaktim... śreya-sṛtiṁ bhaktim upasya, ye kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho kliśyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain and nothing more. Just see that these people instead of teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made. Teṣāṁ kleśala evāvaśiṣyate nānyad yathā sthula-tuṣāvaghāṭīnām. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their... (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American? Devotees: Yes. *Prabhupāda: This is going on. This is science. bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. So our Rāmeśvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice*-you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so then it is like that moon planet. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. It is very nice to see that so many machines are..., but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized. Rāmeśvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is... Devotee: In fifteen days. [break] Prabhupāda: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. [break] ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus. Brahmānanda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. [break] Prabhupāda: ...picture. Brahmānanda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz." Jayatīrtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. [break] Prabhupāda: Eh? Jayatīrtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you? Prabhupāda: No, I can go there. Brahmānanda: Well, we'll call him today. Jayatīrtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him. Jayatīrtha: That would be very good. [break] Prabhupāda: ...purchased a house here? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London. Prabhupāda: Oh, from London? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Brahmānanda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife. Prabhupāda: Oh. Jayatīrtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one. Prabhupāda: The last one was religiously? Petri, Petri? Jayatīrtha: Patty. Prabhupāda: Patty. [break] ...school building. Brahmānanda: Yes, Venice High School. [break] Prabhupāda: ...ten thousand dollar prize... Jayatīrtha: The race track. Brahmānanda: They are betting, gambling. Jayatīrtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America. Prabhupāda: Yes, they have no good business. Jayatīrtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now more and more. Prabhupāda: They also get good excise tax from liquor. Jayatīrtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue. Brahmānanda: In Germany the government supports prostitution. Prabhupāda: Germany? Brahmānanda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government. Brahmānanda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like. Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Brahmānanda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you..., they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator. Prabhupāda: Scientific. (laughter) Brahmānanda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them erotic centers. [break] Jayatīrtha: They went on strike. Brahmānanda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes... Prabhupāda: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing. Brahmānanda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because... Jayatīrtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly. Brahmānanda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big... Prabhupāda: Occupying the churches? Jayatīrtha: The Catholic churches. Brahmānanda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out. Prabhupāda: That is called Gandhi's policy. Brahmānanda: Yes, gherao, or something like that. Prabhupāda: It is called satyagraha. Jayatīrtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands. Prabhupāda: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Brahmānanda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the... Prabhupāda: Prostitute's house. Brahmānanda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked. Prabhupāda: And we say, "No prostitution." [break] ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems. Jayatīrtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..." Brahmānanda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,... Prabhupāda: Ācchā. *Brahmānanda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda-and actually it's a fact*-that "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock." Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda: "No one should ride the subway." Prabhupāda: Then that there will be another problem. Brahmānanda: Now there will be increase of crime. Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway... Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...troubled water. Troubled water. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house. You can... Catch fish in the troubled water. Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. [break] ...Bhavānanda Mahārāja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected... The temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous. Prabhupāda: So Bhavānanda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful. Brahmānanda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. [break] Prabhupāda: ...everything will be all right. (end) Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...advises Arjuna that "I am... The body and the soul different." Dr. John Mize: The body and soul are different, yes. So it seems to me too. Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is the beginning of spiritual education. People do not understand. I have seen many European big, big professors. They do not have any clear conception that the body and the soul, different. Dr. John Mize: It still disturbs me, of course, how the body can influence the mind so much, the mind not being the soul apparently. But I know that when I get hit on the back of the head, my mind seems to blank out. Once in judo I recall having my carotid artery pressed and consciousness left. But it was very pleasant. It was not unpleasant at all. Prabhupāda: No. Actually soul is above intelligence. Above intelligence. Our gross senses, that is our present perception, direct. And beyond these gross senses, there is the mind. And beyond the mind, there is intelligence. And beyond intelligence, there is soul. So come to that platform requires that meditation process to make the sense activities calm and quiet, mind settle, and then come to the intelligence platform, then come to the spiritual platform. Find out this verse, Jayatīrtha: Indriyāṇi pramathini? Prabhupāda: Indriyāṇi parāṇy ahuḥ. Para. You better come here. *Prabhupāda: Hm. The yogic process is to control the mind. Our process is: immediately engage the mind in Kṛṣṇa, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, feeling for Kṛṣṇa, willing to act for Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right. Then everything will be all right. If the mind is immediately engaged in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then this side and that side, everything will be all right. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa*-padāravindayoḥ [SB 9.4.18]. Padāravindayoḥ, in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa mind is engaged. So this is our process, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma...," engaging the mind, meditation. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the doctor was saying that he holds to the philosophy of Kant. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kant. Bahulāśva: Kant, yes. He was explaining nicely his point of view downstairs before we came up. Prabhupāda: What is that Kant's philosophy? Dr. John Mize: One major difference it seems with the point of view of the eastern Indian philosophies in particular is that the soul of man does not seem to be something eternal, but it seems to be something created. Prabhupāda: Created? Dr. John Mize: Created. Prabhupāda: No. Soul is part and parcel of God. As God is not created, He is creator, above creation, so the father creates a child; therefore father is above creation. So God is above creation. God created the cosmic manifestation. Before creation of this cosmic world, God was there. Therefore He is not created; He is creator of all created things. And the soul, being part and parcel of God, he is also not created. Dr. John Mize: The question that bothers me in part is then why would the soul... Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing. Prabhupāda: That is his independence. Dr. John Mize: Independence. Prabhupāda: Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls. Dr. John Mize: I'm sorry, he what? Prabhupāda: He falls down. Dr. John Mize: He falls. Prabhupāda: He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me. Dr. John Mize: I wouldn't what? Prabhupāda: You may not like to hear me. Dr. John Mize: Yes. Prabhupāda: That independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord. Dr. John Mize: Always engaged in...? Prabhupāda: In the service of the Lord. Dr. John Mize: Service of the Lord. Prabhupāda: Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, "Make it like this." He will, it will do. So... But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part. So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life. Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son's duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world. Dr. John Mize: It is puzzling to me that one would be so foolish. *Prabhupāda: Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā, that yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter. That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." Kṛṣṇa never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. He gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." And he agreed. "Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say." The same independence. Yes. Bahulāśva: This is in the Eighteenth Chapter. Dharmādhyakṣa: Prabhupāda: Yes. Now if you say, "Why the soul should become so foolish?" So that is misuse of independence. Intelligent father has got intelligent son, but sometimes he becomes a fool. So what is the reason? He is the part and parcel of the father. He should have become exactly like the father. But he does not become like the father. I have seen. In Allahabad was a big lawyer, barrister, Mr. Bannerjee. His eldest son was also barrister and his youngest son, on account of bad association, he became a ekala wala. Ekala means... In India there is a carriage drawn by one horse. So he liked to be an ekala. That means he fell in love, a low class of woman, and by her association, he became an ekala. There are many instances. The Ajamila upakhyana. He was a brāhmaṇa and then he fell down very low. So this misuse of independence is always there. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our material contaminated state when we act in a foolishly or mad, then we call that tamas, or our ignorance, but in the spiritual sky when the living entity is in his pure state of consciousness, what acts..., Does something act upon him to make him illusioned at that point also? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Jaya*-Vijaya. They committed offense. They did not allow the four Kumāras to enter. That was their fault. And the Kumāras became very sorry. Then they cursed him that "You are not fit to remain in this place." So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down because we are small. Just like small fragment of fire. Although it is fire, it is prone to be extinguished. The big fire does not extinguish. So Kṛṣṇa is the big fire, and we are part and parcel, sparks, very small. So within the fire there are sparks, "Fut, Fut!" There are so many. But if the sparks fall down, then it is extinguished. It is like that. The fall down means material world, there are three different grades: the tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and sattva-guṇa. If the... Just like the spark falls down. If it falls down on dry grass, the grass becomes ablazed. So the fiery quality is still maintained, although it is fall down. On account of the atmosphere of the dry grass, it again makes another fire, and the fiery quality maintains. That is sattva-guṇa. And if the spark falls down on the green grass, then it is extinguished. And the dry grass, if, when the green grass becomes dry, there is chance of again coming to the blazing, but if the spark falls down in water, then it is very difficult. Similarly, the soul, when comes in the material world, there are three guṇas. So if he contacts with tamo-guṇa then he is in the most abominable condition. If it falls down with rajo-guṇa then there is little activity. Just like they are working. And if he falls down in the sattva-guṇa, then he at least keeps himself in the knowledge that "I am fire. I do not belong to this dull material." So therefore we have to bring him again to the sattva-guṇa, brahminical qualification, so that he can understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul. I am not this matter." So then his spiritual activity begins. Therefore we are trying to bring him to the platform of sattva-guṇa, means to give up the business of rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa: no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, so many no's, to deny him the influence of material qualities. Then, if he is situated in the sattva-guṇa, then he remains on the platform of... When he remains on the plat..., sattva-guṇa, then the rajas-tamaḥ, the other base qualities, cannot disturb him. The base quality, the platform of base quality is this: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. So tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaṣ ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. When one is free from at least to these base qualities... Base quality means kama, lusty desires, and greediness. In material world, generally, they are under these base quality, means always filled up with lusty desires and not satisfied, greedy. So when we conquer over these base qualities, then we become happy. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaṣ ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham. When the consciousness is not influenced by these base qualities, ceta etair ana..., sthitaḥ sattve prasīdati, being situated on the platform of sattva-guṇa, he feels happy. That is the beginning of spiritual life. When... So long the mind is disturbed by lusty desires and greediness, there is no question of spiritual life. Therefore the first business is how to control the mind so that it may not be influenced by the base quality, lusty desires and greediness. We have seen in Paris old man, seventy-five years old, he is going to the night club. Because the lusty desire is there. He pays fifty dollars for entering the club, and then he pays further for other things. So even he is seventy-five years old, the lusty desire is there. Dr. John Mize: Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they're not foolish, they don't fall down? Prabhupāda: No, there are... Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down. Dr. John Mize: So we're among the 10%. Prabhupāda: Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are... Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few falls down. Dr. John Mize: Does Kṛṣṇa know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall? Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Kṛṣṇa may know because He is omniscient. Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time? Prabhupāda: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing..." Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency. Dr. John Mize: The origin of that tendency is...? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. John Mize: From where does that tendency come? Prabhupāda: Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yathecchasi tathā kuru [Bg. 18.63]. "Now you do whatever you like." Jayatīrtha: Because Kṛṣṇa is independent, therefore the part and parcels... Prabhupāda: Yes. Part and parcel must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel means... Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The, all the chemical composition is there in the drop. So Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. So we living entities we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute quantity. Dr. John Mize: But Kṛṣṇa has no tendency to fall, whereas we do. *Prabhupāda: No. Because Kṛṣṇa is God. Therefore He is all good. Even He falls down, to our estimation, it is not fall down. [break] ...cannot judge God. If we are devotee, in all circumstances we shall glorify God, "You are all*-good." That is devotee. You cannot criticize God, "Oh, You are doing such thing," no. Dr. John Mize: I'm still puzzled about the relationship of the soul to God. If the soul is eternal, as God is, and yet some souls have the tendency to fall and others don't have that tendency... Prabhupāda: No, no, eternal does not mean not fall. Suppose you are now professor. So you can fall down from your position. But that does not mean you are not eternal. If you are fall down from your position, you do not lose your eternity. You simply fall down. You can become a professor; you can become an ordinary man. But you are eternal in all circumstance. Eternal... Fall down does not mean that he loses his eternal. That is stated that na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Find out. Ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The living entity is never born or it never dies. This is eternity. You change your body, but you eternal. Dr. John Mize: It's so puzzling, though, why I would spend eternity... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore he requires that sattva*-guṇa qualification. Dr. John Mize: The what qualification? *Prabhupāda: That sattva*-guṇa, goodness. Dr. John Mize: I'm sorry... Prabhupāda: Goodness. Dr. John Mize: Goodness? Bahulāśva: The mode of goodness. Prabhupāda: Mode of goodness. Just like not that everyone can become a philosophy professor. It requires certain qualification. But everyone can become also. Everyone got the chance. Provided he is qualified, then he can take the post of a philosophy professor. Everyone has got the chance, not that you have got only the chance. Anyone has got the chance. But not that without having a certain qualification, one can become. Similarly, these thing will remain puzzling unless one comes to the qualification of goodness. Therefore we order our disciples, "Come to the platform of goodness. Give up all this nonsense habit." Then it will be possible. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda? *Prabhupāda: Let him ask. (pause) Tato rajas*-tamo-bhāvāḥ [SB 1.2.19]. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu [SB 1.2.18]. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you find out this verse, First Canto. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. So abhadreṣu, prāyeṣu. We are now covered with base qualities. So when these base qualities are finished, not altogether, almost finished, then one can come to the platform of sattva-guṇa. Dr. John Mize: The platform of...? *Prabhupāda: Sattva*-guṇa, goodness. In that platform one can understand very quickly. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is little successful because we are trying to bring the students on the platform of goodness. Therefore it is becoming little successful. If you keep them in the platform of ignorance and passion, then it will be difficult. *Prabhupāda: So we are giving this chance to everyone, devotee Bhāgavata and grantha*-Bhāgavata, to get them raised from the lower condition of life. Kāma-lobha, lusty desires or greediness. This is the process. And practically you can see all these young men. They have no more lusty desires or greediness. They are also young men. They never ask permission from me any time, "Now, today, I want to go to the cinema." They have got all the monies in their hand. They never misspend without my permission. They are also young men, born in the western countries, addicted to so many bad habits. But they have given up. This is practical. Professor Judah has written me letter. You know him? Dr. John Mize: No, I do not. *Prabhupāda: That "I am simply amazed how you have converted drug*-addicted hippies to become servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." That is his puzzling. But the method is so nice that it automatically becomes. Therefore we are stressing on the method. Dharmādhyakṣa: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda, without practice of the method, it's very difficult to understand the philosophical concepts. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Therefore it is said that without becoming a brāhmaṇa, nobody should touch *Vedas*. That is a... Without becoming brāhmaṇa... Jayatīrtha: 18.54. I should read? Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: *Prabhupāda: That means one has to come to the platform of brāhmaṇa. Then he can enter into devotional service. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad*-bhaktiṁ labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. In that brāhminical state he sees every living entity as part and parcel of God. That is samaḥ, equality. He does not see like this, that the human being has soul and the cow has not soul. He does not see like that. He sees the cow has soul, the ant has soul, the elephant has soul, the tree has soul, the human being has soul. That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. By ignorance he thinks that "The tree has no soul; the cow has no soul; the animal has no soul; simply we have got soul." That is ignorance, base quality. But when you come to the pureness of goodness, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, this qualification will arise. So a devotee is not willing to kill even an ant because he knows that "He is also soul, part and parcel. By his karma, he has become ant, I have become a human being. So I am the same soul; he is the same soul. He is different body. He is suffering in that way. I have got different body. I am also suffering, but I am thinking I am enjoying." That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. What is the meaning, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu? Jayatīrtha: Samaḥ means equally disposed; sarveṣu means all; bhūteṣu means living entity. "He is equally disposed to every living entity." *Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when (sic:) you become a brāhmaṇa. Brahma*-bhūtaḥ, not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; *again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur*-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. Jayatīrtha: 4.13. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy*-just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities. I have seen the students, hippies. And if you say that "If you act like cats and dogs, you will become dog next life," they say, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" (laughter) This is education. He is prepared to become a dog. He does not know what is the distinction between dog and human being. He is seeking after the dog's facility that he can have sex on the street. He is thinking the dog life is advantageous. This is the position. Therefore Professor Judah has written me this letter, that "I am simply surprised how you have converted the drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." This is his words. Dr. John Mize: May I ask you another question? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. John Mize: The relationship of mind to the soul, how the mind comes to know that it has or that there is a soul. Prabhupāda: By taking lesson from professors who has mind clear. Why the students are coming to you? Because his mind is not clear. You have to clear his mind by teaching him psychology, feeling, thinking, feeling, willing. Therefore he has to come to a learned man who knows how to understand mind, how to understand the activities of the mind, how to deal with them. That requires education. A dog cannot take this education, but a human being can take. Therefore it is the duty of the human being, how to control the mind, not act like cats and dogs. That is human being. He should be inquisitive, "Why this happening? Why this happening?" and he should take education. That is human life. And if he does not inquire, if he does not take education, then what is the difference between him and the dog? He remains a dog. He has got this opportunity of human life. He should take advantage of understanding what is what, not to keep himself in the dog status, simply eating, sleeping, sex life, and defending. That is the distinction between dog and human being. If he does not become inquisitive how to control the mind, he is not even a human being. A dog never inquires. A dog knows that "When I bark, people become disturbed." He'll never ask, "How to control this barking habit?" Because he is dog, he cannot do that. A human being can know that "People hates me. I do something wrong. How to control my mind?" That is human being. That is the difference between human being and dog. Therefore Vedic injunction is "Go and inquire. You have got this human form of life." Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now, this is the time for inquiring about the soul." Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If you want to understand this science, then go to proper guru and take lessons from him. The same thing, as we instruct our children: "If you want to be educated in higher status of life, go to school, go to college, take lesson." That is human society. The dog's father will never ask the dog child, "Go to school." No. They are dogs. Jayatīrtha: The universities nowadays don't teach any courses in the nature of the soul. Prabhupāda: Therefore he says, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" Because there is no education. He does not know the difference between dog and the human being. Therefore he says that "What is the wrong if I become a dog? I will get more facility for sex without any criminal charges." This is the advancement of education. Dr. John Mize: How does the mind, then, come to know that there is a soul? *Prabhupāda: That I say, that you have to educated. How these people are convinced about the soul? They have been educated by practice and by knowledge. Everything has to be learned by being educated. And therefore the Vedic injunction is tad*-vijñānārtham, "In order to know that science," gurum eva abhigacchet, "you must go to guru, teacher." So the answer is that you must go to the teacher who can teach you how the soul is there. Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, the professor asked what is the relationship with the soul and the mind? Prabhupāda: Mind is there in the soul, but the mind is now polluted by material contamination. Just like a madman. He has got his mind, but his mind is contaminated. Therefore he requires treatment by psychiatrist. You cannot say the madman has no mind. He has got mind, but it is contaminated. You have to make treatment. So mind is there. Everything is there in the soul. And now the mind, contaminated by the matter, it is perverted. The same example: A madman has got mind, but it is useless. He is simply acting in madness. The same madman, when properly treated, he will act like a sane man. So mind is there always, in the pure soul or in the material body. Everything is spiritual. The soul is spiritual; the mind is spiritual; *the intelligence is spiritual. But it is now contaminated. So you have to make treatment. When it is purified, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then mind is controlled, intelligence properly acting, and soul is in his proper position. Therefore those who are under treatment, they must be strict observation*-he may not do something wrong so that treatment may be hampered. Jayatīrtha: Philosophers generally try to use their mind to speculate about the nature of the soul. But with the mind they can never understand... Prabhupāda: Just like the madman is speculating. He is thinking, "I am president. Bas, finished." He is lying down on the street, "Oh, I am completely independent. Why shall I go on the foot path?" John Mize: When the soul was in the spiritual sky, it also had a mind and an intelligence like here? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Unless he has got mind, how he misuses intelligence? John Mize: But he misused that intelligence in his freedom, his independence. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mind is there also. That is spiritual mind. Everything is spiritual. There is nothing material. Body spiritual, mind spiritual, intelligence spiritual, he is spiritual, the land spiritual, water spiritual*-everything is spiritual. That is spiritual world. Here in the material world, except the spirit soul, everything is material. And he is encumbered with this material atmosphere by twenty-seven stratas, layers. The five elements, gross elements, then ten senses, and then three guṇas... In this way there are twenty-seven layers. He is within, and he has to be taken out. That is called liberation. Just like if you are covered with twenty-seven layers of dirty things, so it is very difficult position. But there is process to clear the garbage and take him out. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, to take the soul out of the covering of twenty-seven layers of material atmosphere. That śloka is naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu: "almost cleansed." Abhadra, abhadra means dirty things. So this clearing process going on. When it is almost cleansed the man feels, "Oh..." And that process: nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā [SB 1.2.18], constantly being engaged in the service of Bhāgavata, grantha-Bhāgavata and the person Bhāgavata. Then it will be cleansed. And then, when he comes out, that is brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54], "Oh, I am now free." Na śocati na..., no more lamentation, no more greediness. Everything finished. Then he begins his real business as part and parcel of God. That is perfection. *Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda, in the Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, "Nature, Enjoyer, and Consciousness," in verse number six and seven you mention those twenty-seven coverings: "The five great elements, false ego, intelligence, the unmanifest, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hate, happiness, and distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms and convictions*-all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and their interaction." And... Prabhupāda: By the material life, these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things, but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "Kut, kut, kut, kut, kut, kut." But one has to push the button; *otherwise useless. However very nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul is out it is lump of matter, useless, not worth a penny. Throw it away. So we are giving importance to the machine, not to the person who is dealing with the machine. This is the folly of modern civilization. We are thinking like child, "The machine is working independently." But that is not the fact. The big airship, 747, is flying because the pilot is there, and the pilot is a soul, covered by another bodily machine. And that, that is missing point in the modern civilization, that who is working with the machine. That they do not know. That is ignorance. It is said*-you see Bhagavad-gītā, Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda: That's it. They do not consider this body as machine. In spite of all education, they are thinking that there is no other element than this machine. And actually, they are finding that big, nice machine, computer, without an operator, it does not work. And this huge machine is working without any spiritual touch? Just see how foolishness. They think automatically working. Nature is working automatically. Do they not think? John Mize: They think there's a mind, but not a soul. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, accepting that there is a eternal soul, how is the soul distinguished, then, from the body or from the machine since things like the senses, the mind, the intelligence, desire and hate, which people accept as the symptoms of the soul... Prabhupāda: That is the proof, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. When the body is finished, no more working, the soul is there, he has accepted another body. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Those who are educated, sober they are not surprised. Those who are not educated, they are surprised. Therefore this very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra means one who is sober by education. He knows the soul has now left this body. He has accepted another body. That is dhīra. He knows by education. Therefore this very word... Find out. *Bahulāśva: That's Chapter number two, text thirteen. "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self*-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Prabhupāda: That's it. He does not lament. "No, this body is no more useful." Just like this dress is no more useful. Throw it away. Accept another dress. But dress is old, now it is useless, that does not (mean) you are useless. You accept another dress. That's all. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but my question was what distinguishes the soul from the body? Because here we're mentioning everything that is the field of activity, but then what is the soul? *Prabhupāda: He is acting on the field. If the field is not acting, the soul is not there. Just like field, agricultural field, when you see the food grains are growing, the grass is there nicely, the paddy is growing nicely, you know, "Somebody is working." And in the jungle, where there is no paddy field, it is simply jungle, you know nobody is working. Where is the difficulty? When these things are in working order, then you know the soul is there. And it is decomposing, lying on the field and birds are coming, eating, dogs are biting*-that means the soul is not there. This is distinction. Where is the difficulty? When the motor car is standing on the middle road, you know, "There is no driver. It is left over." Although the big machine, but because there is no driver, it is lying uncared for. Bahulāśva: So the soul is the conscious worker of the body. *Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self*-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for my, and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? That taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" So we are doing the same business in the immigration department: "Why you have come? Have you got visa?" This is civilization, but the dog's business. "Gow! Gow!" In Paris I went without visa, and they detained me for four hours. Well, a human being has come here. Why the immigration law so strict? But that is advancement of civilization. Bahulāśva: They have to keep out the thieves and the rogues. *Prabhupāda: That means they have created thieves and rogues. Therefore they are suspicious. Nowadays in the airport, everyone is searched. Then it is now taken for granted that all of them are cheats. So what is the value of this education if all of them are cheats? There is no discrimination, "Now, here is a educated professor, Dr. Ph.D., he cannot be searched." No, he will be also searched*-because, "You may be Ph.D., but we know you are a cheat." (laughter) Is not the conclusion? Will he be excused if he says, "Oh, I am Ph.D." No, you must be searched. "You may be Ph.D., but you are a cheat." This is education. So what is the value of this education? And according to Vedic civilization, as soon as one is a brāhmaṇa, he is not within the jurisdiction of administration, immediately. The government has no right to check in his activities. Because he knows he is a brāhmaṇa. Four person, four or five, they are excused from the jurisdiction of law. The first is brāhmaṇa, the second is cow, the third is woman, and the fourth is old man, and fifth is the child. These five persons are not in the jurisdiction of law. No. Just like we have got practical. If a child comes and takes my spectacle away, he is not criminal. Everyone knows. But if a man takes my spectacle, then he is criminal. Similarly, a brāhmaṇa is never criminal. A cow is never criminal. These are the Vedic civilization. Woman, woman is also excused. No punishment for woman. Jayatīrtha: Now the crime rate amongst the women is... *Prabhupāda: Now they have been trained up. What can be done? Woman is not trained up now to become a chaste wife. That is the defect of the civilization. Formerly, woman was trained up only to become, remain faithful to his husband, that's all. Nari*-rūpaṁ pati-vrataḥ: "Woman's beauty is how she is faithful to her husband." That's all. That is beauty, not personal beauty. Vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam: "A black man or ugly man, if he is educated, that is his beauty." Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ. Kokila, the cuckoo is just like a crow, but everyone likes because his voice is so sweet. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā rūpaṁ kurupanam nari-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. Like that, he has given a list. These are the beauty. If a woman is trained up not to talk with any other man except her husband, that is her beauty. That enhances the beauty and prestige. This is Vedic knowledge. Jayatīrtha: In today's society that standard is unimaginable. *Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore there is no adjustment. Everyone is suffering in spite of so*-called education. Nobody is happy. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the professor was also saying that Kant had a theistic viewpoint also. He believed that there was God and what other things were you saying? John Mize: The nature of God? Kant's view? Bahulāśva: Kant's philosophy. John Mize: That the purpose of the human existence is to improve it's moral nature, to reunite ultimately with God, to be pleasing to God. So it's similar in that sense. He apparently disagrees on the origin... *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sattva*-guṇa. Good character means sattva-guṇa, to become brāhmaṇa and then love God. This is Vedic civilization. Jayatīrtha: Does he make any description of God? Any explanation? John Mize: His thesis is that God is an intelligent moral force. But he avoided anthropomorphism by not projecting such properties as anger onto God. But he recognized personality in God. God is a moral intelligence and powerful. Prabhupāda: So to become angry, that is also qualification of God, to become angry. John Mize: Is...? Prabhupāda: To become angry is also qualification of God. John Mize: I don't understand what you last said. To be angry is... Bahulāśva: A quality of God. To become angry is a quality of God. Prabhupāda: Because unless there is anger in God, how there is anger in me? But we, as we misuse our independence, we misuse our anger. And God does not misuse his independence; He does not misuse His anger. But the anger quality is there. Otherwise, how I have got anger? This is the Vedānta philosophy. Janmādyasya yataḥ: "Everything is emanating from the Supreme." So if the anger is there, it must be there. John Mize: And jealousy? Prabhupāda: Everything. John Mize: It's difficult to imagine Kṛṣṇa jealous. Prabhupāda: Yes. John Mize: What could He possibly envy or be jealous of? Prabhupāda: You can say whatever thing, but anger, all, whatever you have got, God has got in bigger quantity and perfect quantity. That is the conception of God, without any, what is called? John Mize: Imperfection? Prabhupāda: Imperfection, yes. John Mize: I hope He doesn't have my ignorance in such a mass. Dharmādhyakṣa: But ignorance is not a positive existence. John Mize: And His anger or jealousy? Prabhupāda: Yes, sometimes anger acts. If you fight, if you do not be angry, you cannot fight. Jayatīrtha: In the *Kṛṣṇa Book* there are so many stories of Kṛṣṇa's anger or... Once, when His mother was (indistinct) a cooking pot... Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Kṛṣṇa's activities are always for the good. So even when He becomes angry... Prabhupāda: That is also... John Mize: Righteous anger. Bahulāśva: Yes, spiritual anger. Dharmādhyakṣa: It's His mercy. So if Kṛṣṇa gets angry at us, that's actually... *Prabhupāda: Everything has got proper use. In the material condition we do not know that. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has made a list, how to use your, this anger, greediness, like that. He says, kamaḥ kṛṣṇa*-karmārpaṇe. We are lusty for doing something for our sense gratification. The same desire, same propensity, can be utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like we are writing books, keeping night, whole night. So for an old man like me, it is tedious. But we are doing for Kṛṣṇa. So similarly, another author may be writing whole night for some sex literature. So the labor for producing a sex literature and the labor for producing a Bhāgavata is the same. It may be same ambition that "Let me become a big author. My name will be very popular." But one thing is being done for Kṛṣṇa; one thing is being done for sense gratification. So that propensity of becoming a reputed author or the labor, this, same, but it is being utilized for different purposes. Similarly, you take anything, if you use it for... Just like Hanumān. He became angry upon Rāvaṇa. He set fire in his city, destroyed the whole city. He showed his anger, but not for his personal sense gratification. He wanted to serve Lord Rāma. Sītā was stolen by him, so there was arrangement for fighting, and he did the same thing, set fire. To set fire in your home or your country, it is not good, but he did it for satisfaction of Lord Rāmacandra. So everything has its proper use when it is utilized for serving Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are living beings. We are conscious. We cannot give up anything, but we are being trained up how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So give him some prasāda. *Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda has written one book*-actually it will be two books, this thick-on all the different philosophers. Prabhupāda is discussing their philosophy in relationship with Kṛṣṇa consciousness and where their weak points are. This book will be published soon? Prabhupāda: The publisher is there. Jayatīrtha: As soon as possible. Bahulāśva: That will be very interesting. John Mize: I look forward to seeing it. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, did you speak about Kant's philosophy in that book also? Yes? He is very popular. *Prabhupāda: Yes, Kant is very popular. I was also a student of philosophy. In my student life my professors were all Europeans. I was student of Scottish Church's College in Calcutta. So one professor, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, he was our professor for psychology, metaphysics. Later on, he became the vice*-chancellor of Calcutta University. A very nice gentleman. Dharmādhyakṣa: Dr. Mize finds that he's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa a little in the shower now. When he takes a shower, he chants a little. Prabhupāda: One press reporter in the Berkeley University in the beginning, he wrote his article and he wrote that after hearing this Hare Kṛṣṇa for a few minutes, I came home chanting all the road, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." He gave this report. Dharmādhyakṣa: I think many scholars have a hard time realizing how just by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: Yes, it is so nice and so easy. Dharmādhyakṣa: ...that the highest philosophical realization can come from chanting. John Mize: Thank you. Devotee: Mrs. Salim has given these flowers and clock. Jayatīrtha: That gentleman who came over last night, he has brought this present. Prabhupāda: Take. (eating) Dr. Mize: This is delicious. Prabhupāda: Now you can take. Kṛṣṇa has given us so many nice things. Why should we kill the poor animals? That's not good. Because na samaḥ, there is no such vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. He is not a brāhmaṇa. He is giving the dog a bad name and hang it. Animal has no soul. What is this? Animal has no soul? Bahulāśva: Sometimes they argue that we're killing the vegetables. *Prabhupāda: That's all right. Vegetable has also life but we are not killing. When you pluck out the flower, the tree is not killed. When you take a fruit, the tree is not killed. When you take grains, automatically they die. Then you take the grains. There is no question of killing. But even it is killing, it is not as murderous as killing a cow. Why the state hangs a man when he kills a man? The man can plead that "So many animals are being killed every day. If I kill one man, what is the wrong there?" The punishment is that "You have killed one important animal." Therefore the Bhaga..., kṛṣi*-go-rakṣya, that cow should be protected because it is a very, very, important animal. It does not say, "Other animal." Or does not say, "All animals." He said, "Cows," because important. It's supplying you milk, so important food. She is your mother and you are killing mother? Is that your civilization? Killing mother? "Mother is old, and mother is no more supplying milk. Kill." Is there any such sanction? Rather, old mother is given more protection. And what is this civilization, killing the mother? In the morning we require milk immediately, and the mother cow is supplying. And when she cannot supply, kill her. What is this philosophy? Bahulāśva: I was lecturing in the University of Marin in San Francisco. So I was explaining that, and one man said, "This is just your sentiment. You just have some sentiment." So I asked him if he had a dog. And he said, "Yes." So I said that "When your dog becomes old, will you kill it?" So he said, "No, why shall I kill it. It's a good dog." So... Prabhupāda: Dog is good; cow is bad. Dog is creating always nasty things, and cow is so pure, even the stool is pure, and she has to be killed. John Mize: The question has been asked about the unfertilized eggs, why they should not be eaten. Prabhupāda: Unfertilized, but there is potency of fertilization. You check the progress of one living entity coming out of it. John Mize: Once the egg is laid, there is no chance for it to be fertilized. Prabhupāda: No, egg is... The living entity is already there. Just like a woman is pregnant means the living entity is already there. So as soon as there is egg, the living entity is already there. It is taking time to come out. Just in the womb of the mother, the child is taking time to grow and become fit to come out. John Mize: True, but the egg in the mother has been fertilized by the male sperm, whereas the egg laid by a chicken was not fertilized... *Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. They have got that potency. There are four kinds of birth: from the egg, from the vegetable, from fermentation, and from embryo. So from any of these four kinds of sources the living entity come out. Aṇḍa*-ja, udbij-ja, jaraya-ja, and sveda-ja, the Sanskrit name. Sveda-ja, simply by perspiration. Just like unclean bed they produce bugs. The man gets perspiration, bad perspiration, and in contact with air, with this perspiration, the living entity comes. That is bug. This is called sveda-ja, "out of perspiration." Your coat, shirt, if you don't cleanse, or your body is unclean, you will find so many moths within the shirt. How it is coming? From the perspiration, bad perspiration, bad smell. Not that every time the male female combination required. There are other sources also. *Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is called spontaneous generation and scientists have so*-called proven that that cannot occur. It's called a folk myth or something like this, folklore, that birth can take place without the male and female union. Prabhupāda: No. How it is coming from the bed, unclean bed. How it is coming the grass? They are also living entity. The seeds are already there. They are like egg. And as soon as there is watering then it is fructified and it comes. Similarly, the egg..., fermentation, what is called, fermentation? John Mize: Fertilization. Prabhupāda: Fertilization. Not fertilize. The birds sit on the egg. John Mize: Incubation. Prabhupāda: Incubation, yes. They are artificially incubating, and the chickens are coming from the egg. John Mize: If it's been fertilized. Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not fertilized. They are keeping in certain temperature. John Mize: It has to have both, fertilization and incubation. Prabhupāda: Both? John Mize: Both. The egg cannot become a chicken unless it has been fertilized. Prabhupāda: Anyway, that... It is coming out of that egg, so there is life. We do not recommend prohibition of eggs because living entity. It is not very good food. It agitates the senses. Therefore we prohibit. Yes? Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the doctor's first question that he brought up that although we are conscious, our consciousness seems to be affected by different material arrangements. There's one philosopher William James, who is like the father of psychology. He says the same thing that consciousness can be affected by removing the material elements. So that is simply the arrangement of the modes of nature? *Prabhupāda: Yes. The same three guṇas. If you contact with tamo*-guṇa, then your consciousness is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, sattva-guṇa, and if your consciousness is always with Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa consciousness. John Mize: James had a very interesting view of consciousness. The brain doesn't cause the consciousness, he felt. It does not originate it. It only receives it like a radio receiver is receiving transmissions. Prabhupāda: That is the... John Mize: He felt that the source of consciousness was divine. James was a religious man. Bahulāśva: Sometimes also he would have a material view also. John Mize: That matter can give rise to consciousness. Bahulāśva: Yes. He would take both sides. John Mize: His final stand on it was theistic, that the brain simply gives transmission of the consciousness through it. It does not produce it, whereas in the Soviet philosophy, that is, that matter gives rise to consciousness. Jayatīrtha: Where do they have any example that matter has given rise... John Mize: This. They point to us. They deny a soul. There is simply matter, the brain, that generates consciousness. Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Rāmeśvara would like to show you some paintings. They are bringing the book to the printer this evening. Prabhupāda: All right. I am coming. [break] Rāmeśvara: "...and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self." *Prabhupāda: Unmotivated means "Oh, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, service of Kṛṣṇa, is so nice. Let me begin immediately." Now, "What will be the result? What shall I gain? What is the profit?" No such consideration. "Begin immediately." And if you begin in that way, there is no impediment. Apratihatā. It is so nice thing. In the material world, if you want to begin some work, then you require some preliminary qualification. It doesn't require any preliminary qualification. Whatever qualification you have got, that is sufficient. Begin. And nobody can say, "Oh, I am not educated," "I am not rich," or "I am not born of a high family." There are so many. No. These things are not impediments. Educated or uneducated, culture or no culture, it doesn't matter. You can begin immediately. The Indian culture was checked by the caste brāhmaṇas, that "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for the Hindus." Therefore it was not spread. Such a great thing, philosophy of Bhagavad*-gītā, remained covered because they thought it is meant for the Hindus, for the Indians, or those who came out of India, they misinterpreted in a rubbish way. And now it is being presented as it is, it is becoming effective. Therefore apratihatā: nothing material can check its progress. Unless one voluntarily refuses it, there is no checking. Some other professor was to come? Brahmānanda: Yes, but he did not come. Bahulāśva: I spoke this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with Dr. Judah. Prabhupāda: Where he is? Bahulāśva: He'll be arriving tomorrow night. He just got in from Boston and he wanted one day to rest a little bit, and then he'll be coming tomorrow night. He'll probably get here around seven o'clock and then he'll come on the walk in the morning and then you can, as you like, you can speak with him that day. He has spoke already with the publisher, the Wiley Company and he is getting permission that you wanted him to publish some part of his book, that preface. So he is getting permission from them to do that. He also... I was speaking with him. He also said that if you wanted, he would write more different things supporting our movement. Some little thing to print, like some little book, like we had "The Scientific Basis," he could write some little things independently and we could print whatever you like. He is very eager to help. Rāmeśvara: You mean like a foreword? Bahulāśva: Whatever you like. Rāmeśvara: He could print some foreword and it would be inserted in our book? Bahulāśva: He said he'll write whatever Prabhupāda wants. He is surrendered. *Prabhupāda: Learned scholars, philosophers, they should understand the importance of this movement and how it is beneficial. They are suffering for want of knowledge of the spirit soul. They are keeping themselves in the animal platform with their so*-called education, but unless there is spiritual understanding, the education has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇa mano-rathena asato dhavato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. He will remain on the mental platform. And mind is now materially contaminated. So even if he remains in the mental platform, he remains in the material platform. He cannot make any improvement. One has to come to the spiritual platform. That is required. Dharmādhyakṣa: Prabhupāda, what is the symptom that you have reached the spiritual platform? Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. Prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati [Bg. 18.54], samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. These persons who are on the mental platform, they will argue, "The animal has no soul." John Mize: I did not understand the answer. Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda said that those who are on the mental platform will argue that the animal has no soul. They will be hankering and lamenting... Prabhupāda: These are the signs of material platform. Jayatīrtha: On the spiritual platform you're able to see all living beings equally, but on the mental platform... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Paṇḍitāḥ sama*-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Find out this verse. Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: ...which is fact? The dreams and phases of different life while passing through, they are facts or I am fact? What is your answer? We are teaching that, you take care of the fact, not of the dreams. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is the beginning of Bhagavad*-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. We are changing circumstances. The circumstances are not fact but the whole world is taking care of the circumstances not of the sheer fact. This is the defect of modern civilization. We are very much serious about the passing on circumstances, but we are not serious about the person who is going through the circumstances. This is the whole defect of modern civilization. And that is the beginning of real life. If we take care of the circumstances, that is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs, everyone. Where to find eatables, where to find sex, where to find shelter for sleeping, and how to defense-these circumstances are understood by the animals. There is no need of education. Just like this morning I pointed out. The bird is catching a small fish, "Fut!" He knows where to find out his eatable. And that you cannot do. You also eat fish, but you jump over and take a fish. You cannot do that. But he can do that. He is more expert than you. (guests chuckle) Yes. In the troubled water, he is flying. He can see a small fish and immediately pick it up. Can you do that? So he is more advanced in civilization. (laughter) He knows his techniques. He is greater scientist than you. You cannot do this. A vulture goes seven miles up, and he can see where is a dead body. So even amongst the animals there are many expert scientists than our so-called scientists. But what that science will help? That science may help how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. That's all. And that is being done by the animals. It doesn't require any advanced scientific knowledge. Real scientific knowledge is who is God, to know. That is meant for human being, Not this where to find out a fish very expertly. That is being done by a bird. Where is the use of scientists and philosophers? Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra the indication is there that "Now you have got this human form of life. Find out where is God." That is real science. That we have set aside. That we do not touch. That we have left to the sentimentalist. Why don't the scientists do not take up this work very seriously, "If there is God, where He is? Who is God?" That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, athāto brahma jijñāsā. So you are all learned scholars. You join this movement and help us. To keep people in darkness, that is not advancement of education. And education does not mean how to find out a fish expertly. That is being done by the birds. Education means to solve the problem of life. And what is the real problem? Birth, death, old age, and disease. That is real problem. So where is the remedy for this birth, death, old age, and disease? That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam [Bg. 13.9]. We are trying, our struggle for existence means we are trying to mitigate how to avoid distress. We want happiness. And Kṛṣṇa presents that "Here is your distress, that you have to die. What you have done for this? Here is your real distress. You might have taken your birth in rich American nationality or might have very good skyscraper building and very, very, nice motor cars. But you will be kicked out at any moment, sir. What you have done for this, that you will be insured for all this enjoyment. Where is that insurance? You are so busy in these affairs, but where is your insurance that you will be allowed to enjoy this?" This is intelligence. You will be kicked out at any moment. Then all your labor is spoiled. And therefore Kṛṣṇa presents this problem first, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. We are looking after happiness, but we must find out where is permanent happiness. That is intelligence, not that I create a circumstance where I am happy for some years and then kicked out. Why don't you touch this problem first? Then you are scientist, then you are philosopher. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Dr. Stillson Judah. Prabhupāda: I think I saw you sometimes in Detroit. Dr. Judah: Yes, we've met before. I interviewed you several years ago. Yes. Dharmādhyakṣa: And this is Dr. John Pore. He is the chairman of the religion department at the University of Southern California, and he has written a few books called "The Radical Suburb" and "Ethical Choice," and his academic interest is in ethics and religion and culture and education in public policy. And this is Dr. Crossley back here, also from the University of Southern California. He has a doctor of theology, and he is interested in modern theology. He's written many articles on modern theologians... Prabhupāda: Then why modern theology? (laughter) Is God modern? Dr. Crossley: No, but one can't do all theologians, one can't do every theologian. Prabhupāda: No, "theo" means God, is it not? Dr. Crossley: Yes. Prabhupāda: And theology is science of God. So what is that science? You are trying to understand God, or you know God; you are going to abide by God's dictation. First of all, two things: you do not know God; you are trying to find out God. I think this is not theology; it is theosophy. Those who are trying to find out God by speculation, they are theosophist. And theologist means one who knows God and abides by his order. Just like we know government and we accept the government's law and abide by it. That is good citizenship. And those who have no government, they are trying to find out some good system of government, and that is another thing. So what is your position? You know God or you are trying to find out God? What is the theologician's position? That is my question. Dr. Crossley: It's both. Prabhupāda: No, both cannot be. Dr. Crossley: Some seek... Prabhupāda: No, both cannot be. That is illogical. If you know God, there is no use of finding Him out. You know already who is God. Dr. Crossley: Is knowing the end of seeking? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. You abide by His law. That's all. You know your father. Abide by his law, that's all. Whatever father says, you abide by that. And if you do (don't) know who is your father, that is very difficult job? How do you find your father? By research? Do you find your father by research work? That is my question. Is it possible to find my father by research work? What is the answer? Dr. Crossley: I think you know your father. You know who he is. Prabhupāda: How I know? Dr. Crossley: Because you see him, you talk to him, you touch him. Prabhupāda: But what is the proof that he is my father? I see so many gentlemen. How I know who is my father? Dr. Crossley: He tells you you're his son. *Prabhupāda: That means you accept anyone as God*-he tells that "I am God"? Dr. Crossley: No, but I accept anyone as father who tells me that I am his son because only one has ever told me that. Prabhupāda: No, that is not the way. Everyone will say, "I am your father." You will accept? Everyone will say, "I am your father." Will you accept everyone as your father? Then how do you accept the bona fide father? Hmm? Dr. Wolfe: Foster fathers very often say that they are the real... Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Wolfe: Foster fathers very often tell their foster children that they are the real fathers. Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not talking of foster; we are talking of real father. How do you know your real father? Dr. Crossley: You've grown up with him. You've known him since you were a little child. It's part of your consciousness. Prabhupāda: So if my consciousness is not right, then I may select a wrong father. Dr. Crossley: Well, just because you know he's your father, there's still more to know about him. There's more and more to understand. *Prabhupāda: It is... Very simple answer is: when the mother certifies, "He is your father," that's all. You don't have to make research. That is futile. By research, you cannot understand who is your real father. You can understand your real father only by the certificate of your mother. That's all. Therefore our Vedic mantra says that religion and God cannot be manufactured by speculation. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yojayet. Just like this example, father. Father was existing before my birth. So after my birth, with limited knowledge I make research who is my father*-you will never find your father. But if you take the certificate of your mother, that is there. Similarly, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā, things which are beyond our conception, that cannot be established simply by argument, logic, so-called science and philosophy, that is not possible. The same example: by argument, logic, science, philosophy you cannot ascertain who is your father. The only simple method and authorized method is to ask mother, and if she says, "Yes, he is your father..." Similarly, things which are beyond our conception, simply argument will be useless. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yo... Tarka means arguments. In another place it is said, tarka, argument, is futile. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭhaḥ: "By argument, you cannot come to the right conclusion." You can argue in a way; *I can argue a better way, he can argue in better way. That is not the system. That will not help. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you study scriptures, so in the world there are many varieties of scriptures. There is Bible, there is Bhagavad*-gītā, there is Koran, there is so on, so on. So which one is correct? That also you cannot decide. Śrutayo vibhinnāḥ, and nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And if you consult philosophers or scientists, every scientist, every philosopher, differs from the other. Otherwise he cannot become a big scientist. He must give a different view; *then he is big scientist. So nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Then where is the way to understand? The conclusion is mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ: [Cc. Madhya 17.186] "Mahājana, great personalities, recognized ācārya, what they say, you follow." That is the best system. So anyone who is speaking about God with authority*-take for example Jesus Christ; *he is speaking in the western world*-you accept him. We Indians, we accept Caitanya or Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. That is the way. That is the way because these ācāryas, these authorities, they are speaking about God. None of them speaking that "You become happy here," no, none of them. Either Christ or Caitanya or Mohammed, nobody has said. So according to the time, circumstances, position, either you follow any one of them as it suits you or, if you can make a comparative study, you follow the best one. So therefore, our conclusion is Kṛṣṇa is the best. He is God. Christ is son of God. So we don't differ son of God and God. That is all right. But when the father is speaking personally, he is speaking what the son has spoken plus something because he is more experienced. So take the father and follow him. That's all. Mohammed says he is servant of God. Christ says he is son of God. And Kṛṣṇa says, "I am God." So where is the difference? The son will say the same thing, the servant will say the same thing, and the father also will say the same thing. So theology means to know God and abide by His order. That is my understanding. And theology does not mean to make research who is God. That is theosophy. So if you are theologicians, then you must know what is God and abide by His order. What do you think, Dr. Judah? Dr. Judah: Pardon? Prabhupāda: What do you think this proposition? Dr. Judah: Yes, well, I think you're quite right. I think that it is... Certainly, in our day and age many of us don't really know God. Prabhupāda: Then he is not theologician. He is theosophist. Dr. Judah: We know about God, but we do not know God. I would agree. Prabhupāda: Then that is theosophist. Theosophists, they are thinking there is something superior. But who is that superior, they are searching out. The same thing: a boy, he knows, "I have a father," but "Who is my father? That I do not know." Oh, that, you have to ask your mother. That's all." Alone he cannot understand. So our proposition is that if you do not know God and here is God, Kṛṣṇa, why don't you accept Him? You do not know first of all. And if I present, "Here is God," then why don't you accept? What is the answer? We are presenting God, "Here is God." And big, big ācāryas have accepted. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, in our disciplic succession my Guru Mahārāja, and I am preaching, "This is God." I am not presenting a God whimsically. I am presenting a God who is recognized. So why don't you accept? What is the difficulty? Dr. Judah: I suppose one of the difficulties for certainly many in the older generation is that we follow certain patterns of life and the... It is difficult to change. This is the great problem. *Prabhupāda: Then you are not serious about God. Then you are not serious. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, sarva*-dharmān parityaja mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ: "You have to give up." Dr. Judah: That's right. Prabhupāda: Because if you are not prepared to give up, then you cannot accept God. Dr. Pore: I think you're being a little unfair to Dr. Crossley. I think what you say is true, that the most important thing we can do is to seek and know God, but I don't think it's right to say that it's a bad thing to study how other people or how man has... Prabhupāda: No, I don't say bad thing. I say if you are serious about God, now, here is God. Dr. Pore: That's what a university in part is for, to study about how people have thought on different matters. Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. I have already said. If you are seeking after something, if you get that something, why don't you accept it? Dr. Pore: Do you believe that Christ said that Kṛṣṇa was his father? Prabhupāda: The name may be different. Just like in our countries we say this flower something. You say something, something. But the subject matter must be the same. Name is not... You can say in a different way, as you understand. But God is one. God cannot be two. You may give Him different names. That is different thing. But God is one. God cannot be two. Dr. Wolfe: We may assume, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that God has innumerable names. Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Wolfe: And most of them not known to us. If we can say "most" about innumerable. *Prabhupāda: You can... Then you know from us. We can... There is Viṣṇu*-sahasra-nāma. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu also. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktiḥ. Nāma... Nāma means the name and the person. There are many hundreds and thousands of names, and each name is as good as the person. Because it is absolute, there is no difference between the person and the person's name. Dr. Judah: If God is known by many different names, though, is it not possible, then, to know God then in many different ways, in many different traditions? Prabhupāda: No. Just like you are the same person, either as professor in the university or at home before your wife, you are the same person. Your wife may address you in a different name, and the students may address you in different name, but you are the same person. Dr. Judah: It's true. Prabhupāda: If the person is the same, so difference of name does not change the circumstances. Dr. Wolfe: But there are many aspects of God, of Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the aspect... The aspects have been summarized that God is realized in three aspects, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate: [SB 1.2.11] impersonal Brahman, localized Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead. Just like the sun. The sunshine is also sun, but you cannot say that you are in sun. Can you say that? But you are sunshine. The sunshine is not different from the sun. Similarly, in the Absolute Truth the first realization is Brahman, and the next realization is Paramātmā, and the ultimate realization is Bhagavān. The subject matter is the same. But according to the degree of advancement, the realization is partial. The subject matter is the same. Now you can study the sunshine, but it is not in your power to go to the sun planet and study what is actually sun. But because it is not in your power, it does not mean that sun planet is less. You cannot go there; it is not in your power. You can simply study the sunshine. But that does not mean the sun globe is false or there is no subject matter of study. You cannot go there. Dr. Pore: In that illustration is Kṛṣṇa the sunshine or is Kṛṣṇa the sun? *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the person. God is ultimately a person. And then, by His another potency, He is situated everywhere. Aṇḍāntara*-sthaṁ paramānu-cay... He is situated within the atom also. That is called Paramātmā, Supersoul. And He is situated in His impersonal, the whole material creation or any creation. The example is given just like fire. Fire is one place but its heat and light is expanded to mines. Just like the sun. It is a fire light, but heat and light is expanded throughout the universe. So similarly, God is one and His energy is expanded everywhere. You can understand Him by His energies. Just like the government, the president, he is not here, but still, we are under government. Who can deny, that "I am not under government"? If you say, "I do not see who is president. What is the government?" That is not argument. You are. Simply you have to make your eyes to see how you are under Kṛṣṇa. That is required. But you are already. Dr. Pore: But then God in His essence is Ātman, Brahman, not Kṛṣṇa. Is that what you're saying? Prabhupāda: God is three. I have already given you the example. The sunshine, then sun globe, and the deity within the sun globe, they are all one; still, they are different. Dr. Pore: And we as human beings, are we part of that too? Prabhupāda: Why human being? Even the trees, plants, everyone. We are part and parcel of God. Dr. Pore: And how is Kṛṣṇa different from us? Prabhupāda: He is not different. Because we cannot realize Him we are thinking He is different from us. That is māyā. Just like father and son. They are not different, but the son, out of his foolishness, he is thinking father is different from him. Dr. Judah: Wouldn't you say, though, that, in the case of us, that we are, as it were, jīva-śaktiḥ, we are the marginal energy, and so we do have, as it were, that aspect of Kṛṣṇa, but we also have in this world then the māyā-śaktiḥ. We are the combination, as it were, here in the... *Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is... That is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā find out this verse, Translation: By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them. Prabhupāda: (aside:) Just wait. I am coming. [break] Kṛṣṇa says that "I am present everywhere by My energy. But personally I may not be here, in here." But ultimately there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's energy and Kṛṣṇa. Wherever there is energy... Just like electricity. Everywhere there is. If you are expert you can generate electricity from anywhere. Dr. Pore: Is it possible to find Kṛṣṇa in the Christian tradition or in Islam? Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh yes. Why not? Christians are seeking after God. You are going to the church. "O God." You accept God has created everything. Here also He says, "Everything is My energy." Where is the difference? Dr. Pore: The Christians describe Kṛṣṇa in a different way. Are they making mistakes? *Prabhupāda: That is... Just like the heat, the question of energy, the heat 93,000,000's miles away from the sun, heat may be different, and in the sun*-globe the heat may be different. But the heat is there; and light is there. The same thing: heat and light is the same, but the degree of presentation of heat and light may be different. Dr. Pore: Is chanting absolutely necessary in the knowing... Prabhupāda: That is the easiest way of being directly in touch with God. Because God and God's name, they are absolute, so your chanting the name of God means that directly in touch with God. *Dr. Crossley: Why is that better than loving your fellow man in the traditional bhakti*-mārga? *Prabhupāda: But you love your fellow man, but you don't love your fellow animal. You love man, but you send the animals to the slaughter*-house. That is your love. Dr. Wolfe: And the soldiers into the battle to be killed. Prabhupāda: No, now, first of all study this man then you go to soldiers. Our love is limited. But if you love... Just like this tree. There are many thousand leaves and flowers. So if you water to each of them, then it will occupy the whole, your life. And if you are intelligent, just put water onto the root. It will go everywhere. And if you are not intelligent, so go on putting water every leaf, every... You see? Your whole body requires food. That does not mean you have to supply food to the ears, to the eyes, to the nails, to the rectum, to the... No. You give food to the stomach; it will be distributed. So Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. That we have already studied. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then your love will be distributed. If you don't love Kṛṣṇa and if you love somebody else, then somebody will cry that "You do not love me." Dr. Wolfe: May I ask a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand this. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "I am expanded by My energy everywhere." So the everywhere how you can go? You love Kṛṣṇa, and your love will go everywhere. You pay tax to the government, and the tax is distributed in so many departments. So it is not your business to go every department and pay tax. Pay to the treasury of the government; it will be distributed. This is intelligence. And if you say that "Why shall I pay to the treasury house? I shall pay the this department, that department, that department, that department," you can go on, but it will never be sufficient, neither complete. So you may love humanity, but because you do not love Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not love the cows; you send them to slaughterhouse. So your love will remain defective. It will never be complete. And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you will love even the small ant. You will be not interested even to kill even an ant. That is real love. Dr. Pore: I agree with you that we love very badly and we slaughter the animals. Prabhupāda: Yes. So badly love is not love. Dr. Pore: But is the converse true, that we chant very well and that we can love Kṛṣṇa even when we cannot love our fellow people? Prabhupāda: Oh, that... We are not... Chanting... We are also working. It is not that we are simply sitting down and chanting. Because we are chanting, therefore we are loving everyone. That is a fact. These Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters, they will never agree to kill any animal, even a plant, because they know everything is part and parcel of God. Why unnecessarily one should be killed? That is love. Dr. Pore: Love means never killing? Prabhupāda: There are so many things. It is one of the items. Yes, that is one of the... Do you kill your own son? Why? Because you love him. *Dr. Judah: Would you explain the other side of it, the fact that, of course, the Bhagavad*-gītā was, has its setting on a battlefield in which Kṛṣṇa enjoins Arjuna to go out and fight his kinsmen because it is his duty as a kṣatriya. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in the material world, for the maintenance of equilibrium of the society, sometimes killing is necessary. Just like fight, war. When the enemy has come to your country, you cannot sit idly; *you must fight. But that does not mean that you are allowed to kill everyone as you like. That is a special circumstances when fighting must be there. Therefore the kṣatriyas are required to give protection. Like the government is keeping military, police, soldiers, that does not mean government is after killing only. That department will be utilized when there is necessity, not that government is meant for killing. Government has other departments also. But this is also maintained. If there is necessity, it should be utilized. So Kṛṣṇa, when He is on the battlefield, that was a necessity. He has got two business. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. Those who are demons, those who are disturbing elements, they should be killed. And those who are honest and peaceful, they should be maintained. But because it is material world, the world of duality, there are good and evil, so you have to curb down the evil. Sometimes force is required. So that killing is not bad. When the enemy is aggressive and you are killing, that killing and poor animal who is supplying milk... You are drinking milk, your mother, and you are killing. This killing and that killing is not the same thing. According to Vedic civilization the cow is to be given special protection. Why it is recommended for the cow? It does not say of other animal. When animal killing is required according to Vedic civilization, those who are meat*-eaters, they are allowed to kill some insignificant animal like deer, goat, pigs. It is for the animal eaters, not for all. But if one is bent upon... And there are persons, they want meat-eating. So for them these unimportant animals are recommended. But cow is very important animal. You get from its milk so many nutritious food. So apart from religious sentiment, from economic point of view, cow-killing is not good. And from moral point of view it is not good because you drink cow's milk, so cow is your mother. According to Vedic civilization, there are seven mothers. Dr. Pore: Are you saying that you should never kill a cow but that you sometimes can kill a person? *Prabhupāda: When you can give life. There is sometimes cow sacrifice yajña. The cow sacrifice yajña means an old cow, he is sacrificed in the fire, and by Vedic hymns he is given again new life. To test the potency of the Vedic mantra, an old cow is sacrificed and by mantra he is given again new life. Not for killing and eating. That was discussed between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Chand Kazi, Mohammedan magistrate. Those who have read Caitanya*-caritāmṛta will find. So the Kazi was challenged by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You are killing cow and bulls. What is your religion? You are killing your father and mother." Then, he also was learned man, he said it that "In your Vedas the cow sacrifice yajña is there." Then He explained, "This sacrifice is not for eating. It is giving a new life. To test the Vedic mantra." That is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. That is a different case. For meat-eating a cow should not be killed. This is not very good civilization. If you are..., you must eat meat, then you can kill other animals. They, those who are the kṣatriyas, they were sometimes going to the forest, killing the deer. They are allowed. Because they have to learn how to kill. So by killing animals, they used to practice. Just like doctors, medical practitioners, they first of all ply their knife on the dead body and find out where are the nerves, where are the..., not a living man. When they are fully practiced, then they are allowed to practice surgical operation. Similarly, kṣatriyas are meant for sometimes killing. Just like Arjuna, he's a kṣatriya. So Kṛṣṇa is criticizing him that "You are a kṣatriya. You have learned how to kill, and now you are hesitating? What is the nonsense?" So kṣatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you want a kṣatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as brāhmaṇas. You must train a class of men as kṣatriya and a class of men as agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is cātur-varṇyam: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But the kṣatriya or the president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and some poor young men-"Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that energy is lacking, what he will do there? Dr. Crossley: I'd like to ask something. You seem to be saying in several of your illustrations that to try to love is too much. But at least we can chant. To try to have a prohibition against killing is too much. Look what happens, we slaughter the animals. But to have a specific prohibition against killing the cow, that we can have. In other words, I hear you talking about a specific discipline that people can actually accomplish: not kill a cow, chant... Prabhupāda: Yes. The brāhmaṇas... Dr. Crossley: But every religion has that. Jews keep kosher. Prabhupāda: It is... Apart from religion, it is social upkeep. It has nothing to do with religion, but it helps religion. Dr. Crossley: I guess what I really want to know is does it matter what the specific thing is, like not killing a cow or like chanting or are there many specific things that people can do for love of God and for discipline that will serve the same purpose? Prabhupāda: Yes. The only specific thing is you chant. Then other things will automatically be revealed. Dr. Crossley: So chanting is necessary. Prabhupāda: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Crossley: Nothing else will do as well. Prabhupāda: No, because at the present moment they are not practical. Suppose the meditation. It is not practical. Dr. Crossley: Meditation is not practical? Prabhupāda: No. *Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our age, that is, in the Kali*-yuga, it is not. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this thing. That is not practical. And it is practical. Even a small child can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We see every day. A small child is chanting and dancing without any training. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the reason that meditation is not feasible now is because we are too much distracted in this age. *Prabhupāda: Mind is... I will meditate on my office work. When I close my eye I shall sleep. I have seen it. Big... (makes snoring noise) (laughter) I have seen it, old ladies meditating. This is not practical. Meditation is described in Vedic..., dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ: [SB 12.13.1] mind is fully absorbed in God, and he is seeing the Supreme Lord within his heart. That is meditation, not snoring. That is not meditation. Impractical. But if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately you can join, immediately, "Oh." Even the child will join. So this is practical. And that is recommended, Dr. Wolfe: Could it be called the true yoga of our time? *Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. It is bhakti*-yoga. Bhakti-yoga begins with chanting. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. And the more you chant and hear, you become purified. So I think you leaders of your country, you should take this movement very seriously and take it for acceptance. It is not difficult. Chanting. You can chant in school; you can chant in college; you can chant in the factory; you can chant on the street. There is no special qualification required. But if we introduce this chanting, you will be benefited great. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are aware that they advance the argument of mesmerization against chanting. The psychologists do that. *Prabhupāda: That's good. That's good. If you can mesmerize, that will... Now Dr. Judah has admitted that you can mesmerize the drug*-addicted hippies and engage them in understanding Kṛṣṇa, is a great achievement. (laughter) Yes. Dr. Wolfe: That's not mesmerization, of course. Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Judah has admitted. So if mesmerization is for good, why not accept it? If it is for bad, then it is another thing. If it is doing good, why not accept it? Hmm? What do you think, professor? Dr. Pore: I don't know how to react. I think I agree with you. (laughs) Prabhupāda: If it is good... Everything good should be accepted. Dr. Pore: One problem... You see, I keep wondering how you're so sure you know what good is, particularly when it comes to war. I would be a little more worried I think that... Prabhupāda: What is that war? Dr. Pore: Well, when you were telling that sometimes war is necessary. I should think that it's important to know how to decide when... Prabhupāda: No, no, necessary means you cannot expect in this material world all saintly persons. There are bad elements. So if a bad elements comes to attack you, is it not your duty to fight and protect? Dr. Pore: It just may be, though, that mine are the bad elements, and I keep thinking that other people are the bad elements. Prabhupāda: No. Even God has got this discrimination. He says, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. There are bad elements. So if in God's mind there is good element, bad element... So we are part and parcel of God. We must have also the same sentiment. We cannot avoid it. Jayatīrtha: Nowadays it's 99% bad. So the wars are simply between two bad elements. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: So it's a different thing now. Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop war between bad elements. Make them good. Then you can avoid. You cannot stop fighting between the dogs. That is not possible. If you try to make the dogs stop fighting, it is not possible. Is it possible? Then it is useless attempt. You keep the human being as dogs, and you want stop fighting. That is not possible, impractical. Peter: Must a person believe in Kṛṣṇa in order to chant? Prabhupāda: You must believe somebody. You believe in God or not? Peter: Do I believe in God? Prabhupāda: Yes. Peter: Um... Prabhupāda: Doubtful. (laughter) Peter: Yeah, I guess you could say that. Prabhupāda: So first of all you have to believe yourself that you are part and parcel of God. Peter: I don't believe that what I experience is necessarily different from what most of the people... Prabhupāda: What do you believe? Let me know what you believe. That also you do not know? Peter: Yeah, I don't know what I believe. That's the problem. OK, true. I grew up without a consciousness of God or without even... Prabhupāda: Without God. Peter: Well, I wouldn't say without God but without... Prabhupāda: But without God, how there can be God consciousness? Peter: So... I don't think that I experience differently than anybody here, but I think that I express that differently. So, what... If I believe in God in my own way, which is maybe expressed... Prabhupāda: No, our proposition is that you believe or not believe, there is God. Peter: Well, how can a person not believe? You have to believe. Prabhupāda: Just like there are so many criminals. They do not believe in government. They don't care for the government. But that does not mean there is no government. Peter: O.K., and so... Prabhupāda: And he will believe when he is arrested and given punishment by the government, then he will believe. The criminal may say, "Oh, don't care for the government." That does not mean there is no government. And as soon as he becomes a criminal, he is arrested and punished. Then he understands there is government. So you believe or not believe, there is government. Similarly, you believe or not believe, there is God. Peter: O.K. You're saying then that God has a nature and... Prabhupāda: First of all, there is God; you have to accept. Then you study what is God. Peter: That we have a nature too, and if we go against our own nature... Prabhupāda: That we have already explained, that you are nothing but a small fragment of God. So you can study God by studying yourself. Because you are small sample of God. There is no need of searching elsewhere. You study yourself, and you find God because you are the sample of God. So you study yourself, and you find God. God is nothing... He is exactly like you but very big. "God is great." You are small. So from small sample, you can understand what is the great. Dr. Crossley: I think one of the things that Peter is saying, though, that I haven't really heard you address is that... He's not saying that he doesn't believe. He's saying that he has the same experiences as all the young people here, but he doesn't dress this way. He doesn't chant. He doesn't choose to call this praise to Kṛṣṇa. He chooses to call it something else. How is it essentially different? He's saying it's essentially the same. Prabhupāda: That he can say also that he does not dress like him, that's all. Not different. Difference is that... We are all differently dressed. It is not that every one of us who is sitting down not differently dressed. But we are not talking of the dress. We are talking ourselves. When I talk with you, you talk with me, you are not concerning about my dress or I am concerning your dress; I am talking with you as gentleman, that's all. What is the impediment of the dress? Anyone can dress as he likes. But he is a gentleman; you are a gentleman. Talk like a gentleman, that's all. Dr. Crossley: If anyone can dress as he likes, then why do you all dress alike? Prabhupāda: Yes, we already are. Just find out anyone who is equally dressed with you. Find out anyone. You are differently dressed from me, from them. And if you criticize my dress, I criticize your dress. That's all. Then you go on criticizing dress. Where is the talk between gentlemen? That is our disease, that we are concerned with the dress, this body, not the person who has the dress. That is our disease. Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the dhotī is not important then. Prabhupāda: Not important. He can have dhotī, you can have pant, you can have... It doesn't matter. Dr. Pore: It's part of the beauty of the world. It's interesting, it's fun, it's enjoyable, and I see no reason for denial. Prabhupāda: There are so many thing enjoyable, but who is enjoying? That is the question. The real enjoyer and sufferer is the soul, not this body. When the soul is out of this body the body is no more enjoyer or sufferer; it is a lump of matter. The sense of enjoyment and suffering is there so long the soul is there. Therefore the soul is important. And if you can study the soul then you can understand what is God. Peter: How do you know there's a soul? Prabhupāda: Because you are speaking. Because you are inquiring, I know the soul. Because you are soul, therefore you are inquiring. As soon as the soul is out of your body, you cannot inquire anymore. Inquiry finished. Dr. Wolfe: Can one say that soul and life are identical? Prabhupāda: Yes. Identical... Life is the symptom of the soul. Because the soul is there, therefore life is there. And as soon the soul is not there, there is no more life. There is sun in the sky, and the light is there, sunshine. When the sun is set, there is no more light; it is dark. Dr. Pore: Is the body, then, to be resisted? Is the body to be disciplined, to be resisted, to be ignored? Is that what you're suggesting? Prabhupāda: Ignored? Bahulāśva: How to treat the body? Dr. Pore: How do you treat the body? Prabhupāda: Make the best use of a bad bargain. (laughter) It is a bad bargain. But we have to utilize it. Dr. Pore: When you say, then, that everything is a part of God you make an exception of the body, the body is not... Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee: No, he's saying that when we say everything is part of God the body is an exception. The body is not part of God? Prabhupāda: No, why? Body is also part. Yes, that I have explained. Dr. Judah: māyā-śakti. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is another energy. Dr. Pore: Oh, I see. Dr. Judah: Inferior energy of Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Pore: Inferior energy. Prabhupāda: Everything is God's energy, so body is also God's energy. So best use of the body is God's energy should be utilized for God. Dr. Pore: Hm. (end) Morning Walk -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...dark? Jayatīrtha: It seems to be... Prabhupāda: Cloudy. Brahmānanda: Very cloudy today. Jayatīrtha: Yeah, it's cloudy. [break] ...June in the history of Los Angeles. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Jayatīrtha: Yes. It was warmer in January, the paper says, than now. During the day. [break] Prabhupāda: ...this warm. But it is cold. [break] Brahmānanda: In London, when I came there, the weather was very sunny and bright. It was very pleasant. Jayatīrtha: Here the sun goes down at eleven o'clock and it gets up at four o'clock. [break] Prabhupāda: Three hours. I was there. Up to eleven o'clock at night there is sun, and then perhaps twelve or half past twelve, there is night. That is also not full dark. And at three o'clock, again sun. So many hours? Eleven to three. [break] ...above Sweden there is no night tonight. Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: There is no day? Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] ...sociological problems there. Because when it's all night, people become very depressed and there's a high suicide rate. So they have been trying to have these artificially lights to light up the cities and make it appear as if it was daytime. Jayatīrtha: Why not just make one big sun, big scientists? *Prabhupāda: (laughs) Still they do not accept God. [break] ...ājñayā bhramati sambhṛta*-kāla-cakro. Everything is. [break] ...cribing the whole universal situation, Śukadeva Gosvāmī concluded, "as God has made it." He never mentioned any other demigod. "As God has made it." Yathā bhagavān kriyetām [break] ...not to accept the authority of Kṛṣṇa, misfortune. Narādhama. [break] (walking:) ...kara bhai, ara saba mithyā, palaya patha nara yo mache piche(?): "Everyone should take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Remember, behind you there is the Yamarāja, death." [break] ...to avoid this horrible conception that there is death, and they avoid this, that "There is death, but there is no life again." That's all. [break] ...this dog race and what is the rat race? There is a word, rat race? Jayatīrtha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: What is it? Jayatīrtha: That describes the modern culture. Everyone runs around like rats in a maze, looking for food. It's a psychological test. They put rats in a maze and at one end of the maze they put some food. So the rats run all through the maze trying to find the food. [break] Prabhupāda: ...this side, Hawaii? Devotee: Yes, yes. [break] Devotee: ...I think they're everywhere. [break] Prabhupāda: ...coming from Hawaii, this boy? Devotee: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...he has come, no? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Oh. And Jagannātha? Nitāi: Jagannātha is here. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. [break] What is the news of Vṛndāvana? *Nitāi: Vṛndāvana is very nice. Twenty*-four hour kīrtana is going on there regularly, and Akṣayānanda Mahārāja is out collecting. He went to Kanpur with a party of men to make life members. Prabhupāda: Visitors are coming? Nitāi: Visitors are beginning to come. Even though there is no advertisement, they are beginning to come, and their general attitude is that they're very pleased with the building. They like it very much. Prabhupāda: How many visitors come? Nitāi: Well, daily three families will be there. Devotee: Every evening āratika there are almost one hundred visitors at evening āratika. Nitāi: To see the temple, whole buses come. Over a hundred rupees a day are collected just by... Prabhupāda: Visitors? Nitāi: Visitors or are giving for prasādam, contributions to the Deities. [break] Prabhupāda: ...is neat and clean? Nitāi: Yes. It's very nice, very nicely kept. Prabhupāda: ...Pradyumna? [break] Nitāi: I have heard many people in Vṛndāvana say that our temple is the best in Vṛndāvana. Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. Nitāi: There's no more beautiful temple. Devotee: Especially the Deities. They are most impressed by the beautiful Deities. Prabhupāda: They are dressing nicely? Nitāi: Yes, very nicely. [break] Prabhupāda: We have decided to finish these seventeen books pending, within two months. So make your program, how to do it. It must be done. *Rādhā*-vallabha: You're including the Fifth Canto. Is that right, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Hm? *Rādhā*-vallabha: You're including the Fifth Canto when you say seventeen books. *Rāmeśvara: Yes. Fifth Canto also by the end of August, for Vyāsa*-pūjā day. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Rādhā*-vallabha: [break] ...amṛta, that is thirteen more books. Caitanya-caritāmṛta is sixteen volumes altogether. So we have already finished four. So that's twelve plus maybe four to five Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. [break] Now that Nitāi and Jagannātha are here, it may be possible. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...may be, must be. (laughter) Nitāi: The only difficulty we face in editing is that sometimes there are problems that come up which we can't figure out ourselves. Prabhupāda: So I shall remain here. Nitāi: If you remain here, then we can finish very easily. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] There was some defect in the roof. They are repairing? Nitāi: The roof there? Yes, the roof has been fixed. Prabhupāda: [break] ...ārati time about hundred devotee, outsiders come? Nitāi: At least. Prabhupāda: Oh, at least. Nitāi: It's crowded every night. [break] Prabhupāda: ...perform āratika nicely? Nitāi: Yes, it's done very nicely. Prabhupāda: How much, how long they do it? *Nitāi: They do for about twenty*-five minutes. Prabhupāda: Only? Nitāi: Yes. Then afterwards Tulasī worship and... Brahmānanda: People stay? Nitāi: Yes. End of the class. The whole evening is taken up by ārati, class... Brahmānanda: Who gives the class in the evening? Nitāi: The devotees trade off. Brahmānanda: In English? Nitāi: Yes. And beginning at six o'clock in the evening they have Hindi class. Prabhupāda: Ah. Who gives Hindi? *Nitāi: The Indian devotees there. Sac*-cid-ānanda gives, and that one, Jatismara. And one... Prabhupāda: What Praṇava does? Nitāi: Sambhunātha Paṇḍita also gives. Prabhupāda: No, Praṇava? Nitāi: Praṇava doesn't usually give, no. Prabhupāda: He stays there? Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: So is there any news of the land? Nitāi: No word. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa has not been there in Vṛndāvana. He has been in Bombay. Prabhupāda: No, it was entrusted to Praṇava. Nitāi: Oh, Praṇava has not said anything, sent any word with me. Viśvambhara is very enthusiastic for starting the Gurukula there. He has said that he can give more than a lakh in order to build a building. Previously he promised a lakh but he said that there is more money he can continually give for supporting the Gurukula there. Prabhupāda: So I have sent news to Praṇava to complete the negotiation, and he has done nothing? Nitāi: I don't know whether he has done or not. Prabhupāda: [break] ...doctor? Nitāi: The doctor is staying there. He is... [break] ...for a few days and stays, and then he goes for a few days. Then he comes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Pradyumna is doing? Nitāi: Pradyumna has gone to Māyāpur to help train the Sastris. Prabhupāda: Hm? Nitāi: To teach the Sastris English, he has gone to Māyāpur. They have all gone to Māyāpur because they were facing criticism from the residents of Vṛndāvana. Many of their old schoolmates were criticizing that they are coming and joining us. These are... [break] ...are very desirous of taking initiation from you. Prabhupāda: Who? Nitāi: Ananta Ram Sastri and one other, I forget his name. He is very, very good in Sanskrit. He reads it fluently, speaks it fluently. Prabhupāda: He speaks Sanskrit also? Nitāi: Yes. Speaks it. He lectures in Sanskrit. Prabhupāda: Oh, that's good. *Nitāi: While he was in Vṛndāvana, we were taking daily a class with him in Bhagavad*-gītā. We would read Viśvanātha Cakravartī's commentary. Prabhupāda: Where is our car? [break] Brahmānanda: ...they would help us acquire land for a Gurukula. [break] Prabhupāda: ...sent Praṇava, how is that there is no news about the land? (end) Garden Conversation -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...is not knowledge. If the tenant thinks that "This apartment is mine, I am owner," then he is wrong. If he knows perfectly well that it belongs to the landlord, "I have given for use," then it is knowledge. Dr. Wolf: Śrīla Prabhupāda, and the tenant can be easily evicted. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Evicted. At that time he knows the owner. (laughter) When he is kicked out. That is stated also in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham [Bg. 10.34]. Those who are not believing in God, to them God will come one day as death, "Now believe Me. Get out!" Finished. All your pride finished. Your pride, your property, your family, your bank balance, your skyscraper building*-all taken away. "Finished. Get out." This is God. Now understand God? To believe or not believe, God will come one day. He will take you, take your everything, and "Get out!" That is God. You believe or not believe. It doesn't matter. The same example, the tenant may not believe the landlord, but when the landlord will come with court's order, "Get out," then you have to go out. That's all. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Those who are not believer in God, to them I come as death and take away everything, finished." That one has to believe, "Yes, as sure as death." Then God is sure. You may challenge so long you have got little life for a few years, (laughter) but God will come and drive you away from your present pride, prestigious position, "Get out." So unless one is madman, he cannot say, "There is no God." Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is a madman. Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, wouldn't it be better to say he is blind, he is stupid? Prabhupāda: Yes, the same thing. Mad is the sum total of all stupidity. (laughter) When I say mad, it is the sum total of all kinds of stupidity. Now you can give them prasādam. I think we have occupied their time. Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when would you like to speak to Dr. Judah about the college? Prabhupāda: Whenever he finds convenient. I am always ready. Dr. Judah: About the college? Prabhupāda: Yes. Dr. Judah: Well, I understand you are interested in founding a college, and er... Prabhupāda: Everyone should be interested. Dr. Judah: Yes. And I've been trying to get the particulars up in Berkeley concerning certain possibilities and I, of course, wrote to the... Prabhupāda: No, it is possibility. Just like you have got this religious section, similarly, we can have Vedic theological section. That's all. It is a section department. *Dr. Judah: The idea of the college that you have in mind, is this going to be an all*-around college, in other words teaching not only, you might say, Vaiṣṇavism, but also English and the other subjects? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Dr. Judah: In other words, a liberal arts college with a religious section in it. Prabhupāda: No. Just like your association is graduate. So you accept graduates to the Union? Dr. Judah: Well, will this be... Prabhupāda: Just like law college. Law college, one joins after graduation. *Dr. Judah: Right. There are two types of college programs. One is what we call the undergraduate program which is generally a four*-year program leading to a bachelor's degree, and then there is the graduate program, which one finds, particularly here in the United States, if one is interested in religion, in the seminaries, which are... Prabhupāda: If you have time some other time. We have to go over the particulars. So whenever you like. Day after tomorrow I am going? Jayatīrtha: He is. Dr. Judah: I'll be here tomorrow and tomorrow afternoon I have to go back. Prabhupāda: Yes. So in the morning. Dr. Judah: Yes, fine. Prabhupāda: So we can talk in details. Bahulāśva: We showed Dr. Judah the press and all the books, how they were published. He was very impressed. Dr. Judah: Yes. You seem to... You have, it would seem, the very latest knowledge of technology. They're doing these things by means of computers, you know, and all of the very highest technology. In fact, technology that I haven't seen in many publishing companies, and I have looked at a lot of publishing companies. And this is the most advanced technology I have ever seen in publishing. (laughter) It's amazing really. Devotee: Beware, it'll do you in. (laughter) No, we can use it for Kṛṣṇa. That is the important thing, as long as we're using it for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: This technology is also Kṛṣṇa's energy, material energy. That is Kṛṣṇa's energy. And when the material energy is utilized for Kṛṣṇa's energy... I will take there. You can distribute. So, I can take your leave now? I have to... [break] (end) Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: ...theosophist and the theologist, both classes they have no clear idea of God. Is it not? Dr. Judah: I think this is... Well, I would say they do not have, they do not... I would make a distinction myself between knowing God and knowing about God. In other words, there is knowledge about God which one has in various books, but one does not know God unless one somehow experiences God. I feel that this is the one thing that the bhakti movement of Caitanya has done in that it has allowed its devotees to experience Him, to know Him personally in a way that changes their lives. Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic civilization. Dr. Judah: Yes. *Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha*-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. These materialistic persons, they do not know what is Viṣṇu or they do not know that his ultimate goal of life is to know Viṣṇu, or God. This is human life. But that is missing. They do not care to know that the ultimate, what is the ultimate goal of human life. This is the defect. Nobody cares to know, especially in this age. So that is the defeat of human civilization. They must know. This is the process, that... By evolution, they have come to nature's way, human form of life. Now they must know what is God. Otherwise it is defeat. Dr. Judah: That's true. Prabhupāda: The opportunity given by nature, good consciousness to know God, Viṣṇu. Now, practically, take anyone, especially in the western world. Nobody can say what is God. Is it not? Dr. Judah: It's true. Prabhupāda: Huh? Dr. Judah: That is quite true. Prabhupāda: So in that position, if we are offering, "Here is God," why do they not accept? What is the objection? Dr. Judah: There isn't any objection. I think the great problem, of course, in the western world is that the western world has always been involved in materialism and... Prabhupāda: The western world... That means they don't want to know God. So this is very horrible condition. Dr. Judah: That's true. Prabhupāda: Animal condition. Not only horrible, it is animal condition. They do not want to know God. Just like these animals, they are not interested. So they have no church, the animals, or temple. But in the human society, either he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, there is some arrangement for understanding God. Now they are also neglecting that, everyone, all over the world. Now they are clearly... The Communists, they hate to say anything about God. So ultimately they are coming to such position, the Communists, that "No word about God." So this is the position. Now apart from them, just like theologists and theosophists. They are, at least, after understanding what is God, but they cannot ascertain definitely. So why do they not take? We are offering, "Here is God." Where is the objection? Why they should object? If you do not know something and if I give you the information, why you should not take? Dr. Judah: That's a good question. *Prabhupāda: That is my question. [break] Just like in India, for higher technological knowledge, they come to foreign countries. So for knowledge, we can take it from anywhere. There should not be sectarianism, "Oh, why shall I take knowledge from here and there?" Wherever knowledge is available, we should take it. That is the real position of seeker of knowledge. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī*-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. He says, viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam. Viṣa, viṣa means poison. "In the pot of poison, if there is little nectar in, take it." Viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam. Poison is not to be touched, but if there is little nectar in, take it. And amedhyād api kāñcanam: "And in a filthy place there is gold. Take it." Not that gold has been polluted because it is in the filthy place. If there is gold in the filthy place, don't hesitate. Take it. And nīcād apy uttamā vidyā. Generally, people used to take education from brāhmaṇa. So Cāṇakya Paṇḍita advises that "If there is education, actual education, even he is a lower class man, śūdra or caṇḍāla, take it. Accept him as master." And nīcād apy uttamā vidyā. Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. And in India, according to Vedic civilization, the marriage is done after seeing the family tradition very scrutinizingly. So here it is advised that duṣkulād api, "In a abominable family, if there is nice girl, educated, beautiful, accept her. Accept her." Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnam. Ratnam means jewel. Wife, she is like jewel although born of a low family, accept. So anything very good, even it is available from a place which is not desirable, one should accept it. So if you are actually seeking after God, so here is God available from Vedic literature. Why don't you take it? Why you should refuse it? That is not very good sign. Dr. Judah: No, that is true. Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are offering here God. Why should you not take it seriously? I am speaking to you because you have got this Theological... What is that? Bahulāśva: Union. Prabhupāda: Union. So they should take it. If they have no information of actual God, take it from us. Dr. Judah: Yes, well, I do, I... As I say, as I said last night... Prabhupāda: No, you have got that mentality, I know that. But because you are president or chairman of that center... What is that? Union. Dr. Judah: I'm chairman of the department of the history and phenomenology of religion. Prabhupāda: So who is the chairman of this union? Dr. Judah: I'm just the chairman of this one department of the history and phenomenology of religion. Prabhupāda: That's... Then you are also important officer. So you can induce them, that "Here is God." Dr. Judah: Well, I'm going to try to do what I can to..., as I told you to... Prabhupāda: (laughing) No, no, if they do not take, refuse to take, so what kind of theologians they are? That is my... Here is the knowledge. Why one should refuse to take it? Dr. Judah: When you have your temple there in Berkeley, I want to continue on chanting and being with the devotees and doing what I can to further Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the... *Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad*-gītā... If you take this that "Kṛṣṇa is Indian, Kṛṣṇa is Hindu, we shall not take," but the words Kṛṣṇa, if you take it, "God said," or whatever you..., so the wordings are God's. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is nobody, superior element than Me." So God can say that. So you remove the word, Kṛṣṇa uvāca, but take the words of God. Who can be superior than God? Dr. Judah: It's true. *Prabhupāda: So in this way if you read simply Bhagavad*-gītā and separating the word Kṛṣṇa, it is God's word. All factual. So why should you not take the science of God? Dr. Judah: Yes. *Prabhupāda: God can say that there is no more greater principle than Me. Is it not? You may accept anyone God, but God can say that. So that is the statement in Bhagavad*-gītā: Bahulāśva: ...statements like that in the Bible, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm? Bahulāśva: You'll not find statements like that in the Bible, that "There is no one superior to Me." You don't find those things in the Bible. Prabhupāda: No. Bahulāśva: A little indication that there's God, but no real philosophy. [break] Prabhupāda: ...manufacturing so many things, United Nations, World Health Organization, and this philanthropism, but the real thing is wanting that the human life is meant for understanding God, there is no such organization. This is the only organization, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. [break] ...neglectful I do not know. [break] Devotee: I'm very happy in my new engagement. I'm finding very much success now. We have made four devotees since I have left, three days. Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. [break] ...the definition of God according to the theologicians? Dr. Judah: Well, there would be many different definitions of God, I suppose, in Christian theology. Prabhupāda: Why many? Dr. Judah: It involves various theologies... Prabhupāda: There is no summary? Dr. Judah: No. There is no actual statement of any one person or any concept concerning God that would be accepted by all Christians. There are various theologies about God, as I said. Prabhupāda: No, theologists, some of the prominent theologist, what do they say? How they describe God? Dr. Judah: Well, it depends upon whether one is a Lutheran or a Calvinist or... Prabhupāda: Let any one of them say something, I want to hear. Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, this is what the professor yesterday was talking about, that there are many different theologies and some people accept one and some accept another. Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda wants to hear one of them, though. What does the Catholic theology say about God? Thomas Aquinas? Dr. Judah: Well, I'm not too good at interpreting the Catholic theology. But they would, the Catholic theology would say that God is the father, that there is the son who was born who is the son of God, and... Prabhupāda: Now, God has got son. That is all right, but what do you mean by God? Everyone has got son, but that does not mean everyone is God. What is the definition of God? You have got son. I have got son. So God has got son. That does not mean He is God. Everyone has got son. Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, you see, the Roman Catholics, if we were to consider this then again, would say that the son of God is one with God and the Holy Spirit as the Trinity... Prabhupāda: And again, the description of the son. Dr. Judah: Yes, the three are one. Prabhupāda: That is all right, but who is God? What is the definition of God? Just like king. We can describe, "King means who has got a big kingdom, a large tract of land. He is ruling over it," some description. So what is the definition of God in that...? Dr. Judah: God is also the creator, they would say. Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice. Dr. Judah: Creator of the world. Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the next question will be that if He is creator, then He has got nice brain. Otherwise how this wonderful creation is there. Everything is going on... Just like this big sea, God is creator; therefore although is a vast water, we are safely standing here because we know God has created in such a way although it is very vast it cannot go, cannot come up to this. Dr. Judah: It's true. Prabhupāda: So how much great brain He has got. He has created in such a way. So we have to understand like that, that "God is creator, so how perfect creator He is." In this way we have to study theology, item by item. Dr. Judah: Yes. And God is also, they would say, the judge of man, judging man for his sins, and, of course... *Prabhupāda: So therefore man is subordinate to God. So why the people are denying the supremacy of God? Just like so*-called scientists, rascals, they say, "There is no God." Immediately they should be taken as rascals. Why they should be given this title, "scientist"? He does not know who is his superior. They should be condemned immediately. Anyone who denies God, he is a rascal. He may be scientist, philosopher amongst the fools, but he is a rascal. He does not know his subordinate position. Immediately designate him, "You are rascal. You have no position because you do not know your superior." In this way you have to study. Then these rascals will be caught up, how great rascals they are, denying the existence of God. So we have to teach people like that, that "Don't follow these rascals." That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Bahulāśva: Last night in the movie? Brahmānanda: The donkey was carrying that big heavy load. Dr. Judah: Oh yes, yes. Prabhupāda: So they are heavily loaded, and they agree. So these rascals are asses. They are simply heavily loaded, but they do not know why he should agree to bear so much load. That is ass. (laughter) They take great responsibility. You see? So they are asses. The ass does not know, "Why I am taking so much load? And the master will give me little grass. So grass I can get anywhere. Why I agree to take his load?" Therefore this example, ass, is given. He does not know his real interest. Mūḍha. If you bear some load, you must have some interest in it, but he has no interest, and he is carrying the load. Therefore ass. Dharmādhyakṣa: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all these social problems, then, in society are basically caused by them denying God. That is the ultimate... Prabhupāda: No, because they are asses. Why don't you say like that? (laughter) Because they are big asses and people are following them. That is the misfortune. They are simply bluffing that "We are very great." Just like these scientists, they simply bluffing that "We went to the moon planet. We are doing this, doing that," and taking large salaries, but they are asses. And people are also asses. Therefore they accept, "Oh, he is a big man, cheating us very nicely." Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, theologians also say that God is the... [break] ...person He is. *Prabhupāda: So we can describe. [break] Let them take it. If they cannot describe, then take the description from us. We can give. That is knowledge. Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī*-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. Why they should hesitate, "No, no, why shall I take from him? He is a Hindu." Or "He is a Muslim." What is this? Knowledge has to be taken wherever it is available. Bahulāśva: In the Bible it says that no one has ever seen God. *Prabhupāda: But then why don't you go who has seen God? Why remain foolish? That is the Vedic injunction. Tad*-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If you do not know, if you have not seen, then go to guru. Why should I sit idle, "I have not seen; I will never see"? Is that knowledge? Go there where you can see. That is intelligence. "Nobody has seen. Therefore there is no use of seeing." What is this argument? This is no argument. Bahulāśva: They also say that no one can ever be pure, that everyone is doomed to be a sinner. Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Ātmavat manyate jagat. That is the conditioned soul's qualification that if he is a fool, he thinks other, fools. Everyone, he thinks, "He is like me." That is nature. Ātmavat manyate jagat. "Everyone thinks others like himself." If he is a fool, he thinks all are. So these things are no argument. Nobody has seen God? How do you take the statistics? Can you say like that, any statistics, that nobody has... Maybe you have not seen him, one who has seen God. That is quite possible because you have not scrutinizingly studied all the men of the world. Then how you can say, "Nobody has seen"? You have not seen the man who has seen Him. He will not admit his fault. He will accuse others, "Nobody has seen God." Why? You may not have seen, but why you say, "Nobody has seen"? You have not seen that person who has seen God. Therefore you say like that. Bahulāśva: So those people who wrote the Bible did not see God. Prabhupāda: That is... when God is canvassing, "Here I am, Kṛṣṇa," they will not see it. And still, they accuse, "Nobody has seen." Dr. Judah: Of course, in Christianity, which many of the Christians, I feel, are not following as closely as they should and have in the past, there is the idea, for example, in the Roman Catholic church, for example, at the time of the Mass, of experiencing the presence of God and there have been Christian mystics who have felt that they have experienced God. For example, St. Theresa, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, and various ones. Prabhupāda: So they must give description of God. If you have seen this rose flower, then you can give a description. If you cannot give a description, then how you have seen rose flower? Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, they have tried to give descriptions, but, of course, I think all descriptions that have been given of God are, as descriptions are inadequate. Because in my own feeling I believe that the full knowledge of God comes through the actual experience of God, experiencing God in our lives. *Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience you can get. Just like God is describing Himself. Now, why don't you take that? Your description may be defective because you are imperfect. But if God Himself is giving His, I mean to say, identification, why don't you take it? Not only gives description, He acts according to the description. When Kṛṣṇa was present, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior element." He proved it when He was present. There was no more superior power than Him when Kṛṣṇa was present. In His opulence, in His richness, in His strength, in His education*-everything, all topmost, Kṛṣṇa. All topmost. The proof is that because you get the topmost knowledge, therefore Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world, accepted, topmost knowledge. All scholars, all philosophers, all religionists, they read it. Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, I, of course, have always felt that... *Prabhupāda: Now big, big scholars, they have taken the trouble to write on Bhagavad*-gītā. But nobody has taken the trouble to write on other scriptures like Bible or Koran. Nobody has taken. No scholar, no philosopher have tried to comment or study because they know it is not very important. Here is important. This is the proof, wisest. And that is only ABCD of God's knowledge. So people should take advantage. It is accepted indirectly. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā, in your country, English. Why they take trouble to read Bhagavad-gītā so carefully? Big, big scholars, philosophers, why? [break] It is the impersonal, cloth. So Śaṅkarācārya has tried to impress this fact, but the rascals followed in a different way. Just like a cloth, big cloth, that is impersonal. Now, you cut it into coat. It becomes like person. So similarly this whole material world is impersonal, but because we have taken a certain portion of it and make my body, it looks like person. And God is not like that. He is spiritual person. He has nothing to do with material. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. What Śaṅkarācārya impressed, that they are after demigods, so "The demigods, they are not actual person. Real person is Nārāyaṇa." That is Śaṅkarācārya's version. Nārāyaṇa... You will find in his comment on the Bhagavad-gītā. First word he writes, nārāyaṇaḥ paro 'vyaktād: "Nārāyaṇa has nothing to do with this material world." And he accepts in his comment, sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ: "That Nārāyaṇa has appeared as Kṛṣṇa." And he has given specific name of His father as "the son of Devakī and Vasudeva" so that nobody can misidentify. If you have got Śaṅkara's bhāṣya, commentary on Bhagavad-gītā, you bring it I shall show you. [break] Kṛṣṇa also confirms. That verse, which we were reading last evening... Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: [Bg. 9.4] "This jagat, this material world, is impersonal. And that is My energy. Therefore the whole world is resting upon Me, but I am not there. As person, I am not there." This is the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like the sunshine is spreading all over the universe, but the sun is aloof. Take this example. Not that because the sunshine is here, we are now getting, the sun has come here. The sun is shining from the distant place. He is aloof. Similarly, God is person and His shining is all this creation. That is impersonal. Dr. Judah: Like the rays of the sun. *Prabhupāda: Yes. And Śaṅkarācārya's... Not Śaṅkarācārya. His followers have interpreted, "Because God has become all*-pervading, then where is God person? He is finished." But they do not see the sun, that although the sun is all-pervading, still, he is maintaining his identity. Dr. Judah: Yes. That's the bhedābheda philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhedābheda philosophy, that is actual philosophy. Acintya*-bhedābheda. Dr. Judah: God is both one and dual. Prabhupāda: Yes. Simultaneously. The same example. The sunshine and the sun one, light and heat. But still, the sun is different from the light. [break] ...them about going to the moon planet? Dr. Judah: What happened, do you say, to the... Brahmānanda: To the program of going to the moon. Dr. Judah: I don't know. But they've stopped it. Brahmānanda: Why? Dr. Judah: I don't know. One of the problems has been probably the criticism of the American people that so much money was being spent on going to the moon when there were so many other needs for the money to be used. Brahmānanda: With such little result coming from it. Dr. Judah: Yes. The amount, the expense, whether the expense could actually be justified to continue on in the way that they had. [break] Prabhupāda: ...to Venus? They say they are going to Venus? Brahmānanda: The Russians have sent a spaceship to Venus. Revatīnandana: It's unmanned. There are no men in it. They are going to Venus but there is no man in the ship. Prabhupāda: Now, why they are going to Venus? They have failed to achieve anything by going to the moon. Now why another attempt, to go to the Venus? Dr. Judah: Well, the usual explanation that they have given, as I recall, is that these explorations give man more of a knowledge about how the world was created, our universe was created. Prabhupāda: That is another speculation. Dr. Judah: Yes. Bahulāśva: Why do they have to go to Venus, though, to figure that out? They have a planet here they can't get any information out of. Prabhupāda: Why they are anxious to know how the world was created? It is already created. What is your credit? [break] ...and simply bluffing people, that's all. [break] It is already there. The nice creation is already there. Dr. Judah: Accept it as it is. Dharmādhyakṣa: And be joyful. But they want to try to imitate the creation. Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. "Where angels dare not, foolish rush in. Where angels dare not, fools rush in." So big, big, giant, saintly persons, they simply admired, and they are going to understand it. What is that? And they can create, like that? They cannot create even an ant, a small ant, and they are going to create, imitate the creation of God. Just see. And we have to believe such fools. (laughter) This is our misfortune. Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, because the Christian theologians do not have very much information about God, they are being very much influenced by these scientists and their conceptions. *Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, sva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. The same example. A lion is accepted as the king. He is considered to be the king of the beasts in the forest. And he is very much praised. But a human being will see that the lion is also an animal and those who are praising him, they are also animals. Is it not? So if some animals praises another animal, does it mean that the animal is very big? It may be very big for these animals, but lion is not very big thing to the human being. They can capture it. It is nothing. Actually, they capture and keep it in the zoo. So for a human being both the big animal and a small animal, they are animals, although the small animals praise the big animal. Do you follow what I said? Dr. Judah: Yes. Prabhupāda: So here a big animal is being praised by a small animal, but both of them are animals. *Revatīnandana: So in other words the big leaders and the scientists, they are thinking that "When I am president or when I am scientist-then this time we have landed on Venus*-I will be praised." Prabhupāda: Yes, but who will praise? Revatīnandana: By other animals. Prabhupāda: By other animals. Not a human being. Revatīnandana: Right. But they're thinking, "I will become great," even though we know they are not great. Prabhupāda: No, how they will know? He is animal. How he can know his position? And especially when the other small animals praise him he thinks that "I have become very big." Revatīnandana: So that is their real motivation for going to Venus. But it isn't very intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes, "The small animals will praise." That is good policy. I think we shall now go this way. Time is...? Bahulāśva: Twenty to seven. Prabhupāda: In *Bhāgavatam* everything has been described. *Dr. Judah: Yes, I received the first part of the Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam that you translated and sent to me, for which I again thank you. I brought it with me to read on the plane. [break] Dharmādhyakṣa: ...true that now theologians are trying to make mathematical models to understand God? Dr. Judah: Mathematical models? Dharmādhyakṣa: This Whitehead, that Alfred North Whitehead, in process theology? Dr. Judah: Well, I don't know that that would quite be true. I don't know Whitehead really. But it is a... I don't know whether that could be said to be true or not. I really don't know. [break] Jayādvaita: ...that Altheiser spoke. Dr. Judah: Oh, yes. Jayādvaita: That God is, that slogan, "God is dead," that was started by a Christian theologian, Altheiser. *Dr. Judah: Yes, that philosophy of Altheiser's, and Hamilton and some of the others, so*-called "death of God theology," of course, was a phase through which Christianity went through but I think has lost its, certainly, its efficacy at the present time. I think it's probably had an effect certainly on some, but I would not say that is characteristic of Christian theology today. In fact, I see a swinging back to a more conservative position. And, of course, as far as the people are concerned, there is this need for an experiential relationship with God, which has gone through all of the churches and which is called the charismatic renewal, and this has been very influential in many of the churches. Jayādvaita: But he was trying to say that because God is dead, now we have to revive our relationship with Christ. And then he equated that that everyone is, that means we have to have a relationship with all the human beings. Dr. Judah: Yes. It is put on a, certainly, on a more humanistic scheme. Jayādvaita: And now people want to know Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Judah: Yes. Revatīnandana: Did they actually seriously think that the Father was dead? Dr. Judah: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...dead, then what kind of God he is? Dr. Judah: Yeah. He wouldn't be any. Prabhupāda: If the God dies and ordinary animal also dies... Dr. Judah: Yes, it was what they called "atheistic Christianity." (laughter) But as I say, I do not feel that this is representative of Christianity today. And I think that the very fact that this "death of God theology" did become so popular at one particular period is one of the particular reasons why more people have wanted, then have rejected this and have wanted to find some experience of God, find it in their lives to prove, as it were, that He does exist. I think this has been certainly one of the instruments that has caused people to try to seek the reality of God in various ways. In Sufism, I know, in Berkeley they're seeking God, and in the Vedānta and in many other of the different movements, some of them from India and some of them from Japan, particularly in the case of Zen Buddhism which has become very popular. And then, of course, there's always the Sokagaktii(?) in the Bay area which also is very influential among many of the university students, and which, of course, does chanting also. It's a form of bhakti in Buddhism. Prabhupāda: Actually, nobody has got clear idea of God. This is the difficulty. Nobody knows. We can challenge them. Nobody knows what is God. We can challenge. [break] (in car) Dr. Judah: ...o'clock this morning. Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone rises at three o'clock. Dr. Judah: I had an interesting dream last night, and after dreaming it, I woke up and stayed awake until I got up, until I was called at five. The dream was... It seems to be a mixture of the events that occurred last night. I was in a temple and doing kīrtana with a number of devotees, and in the middle of the kīrtana, a little child crawled in on the floor into the temple, and we all stopped and talked to the little child. And I'm reminded... And I thought, "Now what does this mean?" And I remember then. I was talking with Dharma just before I went to bed, and there was this little child that came in from next door there, and so he, we gave him some prasādam, and so I feel that this all got mixed together in this dream. Prabhupāda: Dream means some mixed ideas. Dr. Judah: Yeah. Yes. An interesting mixture of things. Jayatīrtha: Prabhupāda gives the example that during the day you may see gold and you may see a mountain. So at night you dream of a golden mountain. [break] Dr. Judah: ...devotees, I think a long time, haven't you? Jayatīrtha: Yes, Brahmānanda was one of the original... Dr. Judah: I've seen his picture so often times in the Back to God magazine playing the mṛdaṅga drum. Jayatīrtha: What is it, ten years, Brahmānanda? Or nine years? Brahmānanda: Well, '66. August '66. Dr. Judah: August '66. You are one of the very earliest. Prabhupāda: Actually, I began this movement from July '66. I came in '65 but I could not do anything. I was loitering here and there. Actually, I began my preaching work from '66, June, July, I think, yes. Dr. Judah: You must have been one of the hippies he converted there in Tompkins Park then. Brahmānanda: Well, I wasn't quite a hippie. (laughter) There weren't hippies at that time. It was just beginning. So I had been to the university. I graduated NYU. But I'd been to India. Dr. Judah: You had been to India? Brahmānanda: Yes. I was planning on going back also. I wanted to take a further degree. I was applying for a Fulbright. Dr. Judah: I see. [break] Prabhupāda: ...by simply inquiring about Kṛṣṇa, you have become Kṛṣṇaized. Dr. Judah: Yes, I think, yes. Prabhupāda: Because several times you had to utter the word Kṛṣṇa. Dr. Judah: Kṛṣṇa has been certainly a great influence in my life, the chanting and being with the devotees. It has been a transforming thing. Brahmānanda: I was looking at your book last evening. I thought it was very nice. Dr. Judah: Thank you. Brahmānanda: It's very scholarly and scientific and at the same time sympathetic. So I think it will make everyone happy. Dr. Judah: Yes. I hope so. I dedicated it to the devotees and to their parents. Brahmānanda: Yes. To breach the gap, yoga. (laughter) Dr. Judah: It might help some reconciliations in some cases. Jayatīrtha: That's a good idea for devotees to give to their parents. [break] Dr. Judah: ...it has many imperfections of which I am well aware. Mistakes that I hope in another edition can be corrected. Prabhupāda: But many parents are very happy because their... Dr. Judah: Yes. Prabhupāda: They are very happy. Some of them come to me to give me thanks. Dr. Judah: Yes, I'm sure that is the case. Brahmānanda: We've had recently just some of our devotees... There was one boy, senior man, he left the movement for awhile, and his mother told him to go back. Dr. Judah: She did? Brahmānanda: Yes. Now he is back, and he is very thankful to his mother. Dr. Judah: That's interesting. Jayatīrtha: She said, "When you were in the movement, you were a very nice boy, soft spoken, didn't have any bad habits. Now you've left and you've become a debaucher, drunkard. You should go back." [break] Dr. Judah: I understand that Keśava, who phoned me last week in Berkeley, that his brother Karandhāra is over in Iran now and working as some kind of an accountancy agency for the Iranian government, and... Brahmānanda: They work on contracts. Jayatīrtha: One of our members there is a partner in Arthur Young and Company. Dr. Judah: Of which? Jayatīrtha: Arthur Young. It's a big accounting firm. So he's one of our elder devotees and he's manager of the firm there. Karandhara went there to work with him. [break] ...article, Brahmānanda Mahārāja? Brahmānanda: Which article? Jayatīrtha: That one that Karandhara sent. Brahmānanda: Yes. (end) Morning Walk -- June 26, 1975, Los Angeles Prabhupāda: (in car) So do these people know what is the science of God? Jayatīrtha: No. But they pretend that they do. Prabhupāda: Well, pretending will not do. You must explain what is God. "Something," "perhaps," this is not science. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...if no one else knows, they're able to fool them. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Brahmānanda: Each man presents his own theory. Prabhupāda: That is theosophy, that is not theology. Theosophy means a system of speculation, that's all. And theology does not require. Biology. Logy means science. They say anthropology, but it is not logy; it is theory. "Maybe," "200,000,000's of years." What is this? Logy does not mean that. Jayatīrtha: Still, they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology. Prabhupāda: Just like astrology. That is a science. Eh? What is that? Jayatīrtha: But still they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology, even they don't know anything about it. *Prabhupāda: You can do. Hiranda*-pitha drumayate. When there is no tree, the small castor seed oil tree... It is not much. It becomes a very big tree. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. The castor seed plants, they are taken as big tree. [break] Actually, theology is Bhagavad-gītā. [break] Jayatīrtha: Oh, that's nice. Very good. [break] Prabhupāda: Suitable? Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: (walking) ...means science of God. So what is that science of God? Who knows it? Jayadvaita: You do. Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. (laughter) Bahulāśva: Jaya! [break] Prabhupāda: ...of God means first of all we must know who is God. This is the first. Then, what is this material world and what is my relationship with this material world and God. This is science of God. [break] Bahulāśva: ...you wanted the colleges named the Vedic Theological College? Prabhupāda: Yes. Hm. Don't come very near. [break] ...that the college teachers and students must be brāhmaṇa, not śūdras. Śūdras will not be able to understand the science of God. What was the... Now, Dr... What is his name? Bahulāśva: Last night? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Dr. Mize. Prabhupāda: Dr. Mize? So what does he say? Bahulāśva: He said that he could give up the greed, but the lust was a very hard one for him to give up. Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Dharmadhyaksa: He wanted to become more unselfish, but he didn't know how he could give up lust. Prabhupāda: No, that can be done. If you increase your Kṛṣṇa consciousness, love for Kṛṣṇa, then you will forget this lust. Dharmadyaksa: That's what we told him, that he must chant. *Prabhupāda: That is the only. That is the only. There is no other second way. [break] ...conquer over lust, one has to take shelter of Madana*-mohana. Madana means lust, Cupid, and Kṛṣṇa is Madana-mohana. He can enchant the Cupid also. [break] ...Ṭhākura, young man. At dead of night the prostitute came. How he restrained? That is... One who has realized Madana-mohana, for him these things are nothing, no enchantment. [break] Dharmadyaksa: ...impressed with Your Divine Grace's energy and ability to work so much. Prabhupāda: Why you do not say, "This is spiritual energy"? Yes. [break] ...got so many dogs nonsense. And it is solved. Just see. And he has brought dozens of... [break] Jayatīrtha: ...life will be empty. Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually that is a fact. No family, no children, so they must have some. The dog is their children, family. That is the attraction for..., because mostly they do not have family. Jayatīrtha: They kill the family before they're born. Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Jayatīrtha: And then, instead they get dogs. Prabhupāda: There must be something to repose my love. So they have no family, no Kṛṣṇa. So naturally keep dog. [break] ...must be there, to love. That is my tendency, but if I have nothing, then I will have to catch the dog. What can be done? [break] ...furnish this television. Dog and television and whiskey and cigarette. That's all. (laughter) Is it not? [break] ...in India these things are entering: dog, television. And cigarette, wine, has already entered. Bahulāśva: This is the degradation. [break] Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Bahulāśva: So much sex, everything you watch. Prabhupāda: And not only that, horrible scene. Bahulāśva: Yes. Prabhupāda: Killing and like that. Dharmadyaksa: They sit hypnotized. They say we are becoming hypnotized by chanting, but actually they are hypnotized by this TV set. Prabhupāda: No, no, that I have already explained. We must be hypnotized. If we do not become hypnotized by Kṛṣṇa, then we must be hypnotized by this television and other. [break] ...pūrṇimā? No. Full moon, last night? No. Harikeśa: I think the full moon was Monday. Prabhupāda: Monday? [break] ...how many pages yesterday delivered? Nitāi: I finished a hundred pages. Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) Prabhupāda: So what is decided? Brahmānanda: That he will travel with Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: That will be all right? Nitāi: Yes, yes. Prabhupāda: Then you can do that. They are composing hundred pages? Rāmeśvara: Daily? Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Not a hundred pages. A hundred verses, each person. Each composer, one hundred verses approximately. Prabhupāda: Oh. And one verse means one page average? No. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Two verses per page. Rāmeśvara: Two or three verses per page. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Two. Jayatīrtha: So between all the composers a hundred pages a day. Rāmeśvara: Oh, between all the composers, more than a hundred pages. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We are going fast enough so far to do the seventeen books. Prabhupāda: That's nice. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I think in one week we'll be able to finish Madhya-līlā, volume three, and Antya-līlā, Chapter One. Prabhupāda: Very good news. *Rādhā*-vallabha: I went to the press right after maṅgala āratrika, and one of the composers had already run out the door of the temple room, and she was composing already. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Pālikā is also doing? *Rādhā*-vallabha: She's going to school now. she's learning how. She will start tomorrow, I think. Rāmeśvara: In a few days. Prabhupāda: She is very expert. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: ...all night long and they are not getting tired. *Prabhupāda: That's nice. Spiritual energy does not get tired. That is spiritual. When we get tired, that is material. Spiritual means one would not feel tired. Ānandāmbudhi*-vardhanam. Vardhanam means increasing. [break] ...has not come? Brahmānanda: He left last night for Las Vegas. He will go to Denver. He will see you there. Prabhupāda: Last night at two o'clock (chuckles) he took film. Brahmānanda: Yadubara. Harikeśa: You were translating, he was filming? [break] Prabhupāda: ...night I was working from half past ten. (laughs) Brahmānanda: Then? Prabhupāda: No sleep, that's all. [break] ...sleep, utmost, one hour or one and a half. Harikeśa: Is it proper to say that your purports are getting better every day? Prabhupāda: I do not know that. (laughs) You think so? Harikeśa: Yes. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Dr. Kapoor has commented, "The purport is superb." Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Yes, he has said that. [break] ...from these waves how these birds catches... *Rādhā*-vallabha: Fish. Prabhupāda: Fish. You cannot fish, but they know how to fish. They can see and immediately catch, while in the water. [break] Jayatīrtha: ...given them the facility that they need for survival. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. They do not know industry. (laughs) So they have to catch their eatables from the nature. Bahulāśva: The scientists say that everything has developed due to the need for biological survival. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...is of the body, not of the soul. That they do not know. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: ...because a certain animal needs a certain type of facility like long claws or big teeth or a certain amount of legs, they say that automatically in the course of time these things develop. Prabhupāda: Yes. That we know also. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They don't say that it has anything to do with God. They simply say... Prabhupāda: That is their nonsense rascaldom. Who is arranging this? You cannot do it. You cannot do it. So somebody has arranged like that. It is going on. Somebody has done. You have not done; neither you have power to do it. So that somebody is God. *Rādhā-vallabha: The same scientist-his name was Lamarck*-he said that the giraffes have long necks because after many, many years of trying to eat leaves from trees their necks got longer. Prabhupāda: What is that? Brahmānanda: He says the giraffes with the long necks in Africa their necks... Formerly their necks were very short, but they were always trying to eat the leaves on the top of the tree, so by doing this for many, many years their necks became longer, longer, longer. Prabhupāda: That is Darwin's theory. Jayatīrtha: Yes. [break] Gradually, they'll become pigeons. Because they want sex life so much, so more and more they'll develop the bodies of pigeons. Prabhupāda: Now the thing is who are they? That they do not know. They say "They are," but who are "they?" That they do not know. [break] *Bahulāśva: In Kṛṣṇa Book and Bhagavad*-gītā both, you explain there are five states of consciousness, beginning with annamaya, manomaya, pranamaya, like that. Do these states of consciousness manifest in different species of life? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Yes? So like plants for example, they would be in the annamāyā state of consciousness? Prabhupāda: Yes. Bahulāśva: Simply eating? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...in Vṛndāvana, as they will be advertised, many people will come, more people, because they will come rather surprisingly, "How the Europeans, Americans have become devotee and they have their temple?" That will be attractive for them. [break] Brahmānanda: Should they advertise like that? Prabhupāda: That is automatically being advertised. Just like our Māyāpur mandir is known as "Sahib mandir." (laughs) Sahib means European. [break] It is said that... Where is Nitāi? Jayatīrtha: Nitāi? Prabhupāda: That visitors coming in full bus? Nitāi: Yes, yes. Yes, I have seen in the evenings many buses will come and park there. Everyone will get out and go see the Deities, take prasādam, take books. Prabhupāda: So gradually it is becoming... Jayadvaita: The buses come from town or from Delhi? Nitāi: No, from Vṛndāvana. Tour... many pilgrims come, groups of pilgrims who are staying some place in Vṛndāvana, and then in the evening they will all get in their bus and come out and see our temple. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Pilgrims come from all over India? Prabhupāda: And when they will go back to their villages, they will advertise, that "There is a European temple now in Vṛndāvana." And they will come. (laughs) And even the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, they are saying that is the best temple in... Is it not? Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: That is... But actually that is the fact. That is the fact. Our temple is the best. (chuckles) Dharmadyaksa: Jaya! Prabhupāda: Now you make a best college. Yes. Vedic Theological College, affiliated to the California University. Then it will be successful. *Rādhā*-vallabha: People are always anxious to see what we are going to do next. Prabhupāda: Yes. *Rādhā*-vallabha: Even in Rādhā-Ramaṇa temple they were asking when is our Vṛndāvana temple going to be opened. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: ...police are also becoming very favorable. Even when they arrest us, actually they want to hear Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Prabhupāda laughs) When they arrest us, while they are writing the tickets, we read to them out of the books. Prabhupāda: Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was child, His mother's friend would tease Him so that He may cry, and then they will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and He will stop. To see that by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa He is pacified to see this fun, they would tease Him first of all, and He would cry, and then they will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they will... [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: In New Jersey one time we were driving very fast to try and meet you at the airport, and a police officer pulled us over, and he was very angry. We were driving very fast. And he said... Prabhupāda: No, you should not drive fast. (devotees laugh) No, no, this is not good. *Rādhā*-vallabha: We had to pick you up at the airport, Prabhupāda, and we were late. Prabhupāda: That's all right, but fast, drive very fast, is risky. *Rādhā*-vallabha: So this police officer he pulled us over. He was very angry. He said, "Let us see your license and registration." We gave it to him, and it said International Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness on the registration. He said, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa." And he asked us some questions about the philosophy, and he listened very carefully, and then he said, "I cannot give people like you a ticket." [break] Prabhupāda: ...they are pleased, but don't take undue advantage. Yes. [break] ...remain friends. That is wanted. [break] *Rādhā*-vallabha: When they arrest us we read to them out of Kṛṣṇa Book, the pastimes, and they listen the whole time. And sometimes for an hour and a half, two hours, they'll listen to us while we preach. Then they let us go. [break] Sometimes we are about to make an announcement to collect donations and the police officer will be standing there like this, like he doesn't want us to do it. And we go up to him and say, "If you don't look, we'll go ahead and collect and pass out magazines," (Prabhupāda laughs) He will say, "All right." Prabhupāda: "Please close your eyes. (everyone laughs) Let us do something." [break] Jayatīrtha: (back in car) ...register as a travel agent so that we can get discount on all of our tickets, airplane tickets, and then also we can work on arranging that, that these tours would stop there. Prabhupāda: The Cox and Kings, they inquired from me, "Whether you can take charge?" Guru dāsa can take charge of this. He is well acquainted with the several places. And he is loitering here and there doing as he likes. [break] Harikeśa: ...had the plan to perhaps get one bus and leave it at our place and then do tours on our own. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...airport by this way? No, the other way. Jayatīrtha: You can go this way. We usually go on the freeway. You can go straight up this street. [break] Prabhupāda: ...freely. Brahmānanda: Yes. Eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. Jayatīrtha: Everyone is afraid now, of taking it. The crime rate has become very high. Prabhupāda: Black and white? Jayatīrtha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Negroes are envious of the white men. Jayatīrtha: Yes. In Detroit every year one out of every five hundred people is murdered. Prabhupāda: White man? Jayatīrtha: White men and black men. Usually black men are murdering. Prabhupāda: What is the reason? The same feeling as in India, Hindu Muslim. But it is not so strong. Brahmānanda: No. (end) Room Conversation -- June 26, 1975, Los Angeles *Prabhupāda: So you have given up the Vaiṣṇava*-sadācāra for business selling. So you can be dangerous for that. *Devotee (1): But we have also maintained the Vaiṣṇava*-sadācāra. They didn't tell us... Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do that. But they do not see whether you are maintaining. Devotee (1): But at the same time, when we were maintaining that, we had the same problems, is that, when we presented sociological applications of the philosophy, for instance, to arrange marriages in a reasonable way, that the women not be sent out on saṅkīrtana to prostitute themselves to sell books, but be trained up to be wives, or that the brahmacārīs in the temple, someone would sit and talk with them and see how many of them want to be married and try and arrange some type of training for them, knowing that most of them are going to become married, rather than just have no training and one day find oneself married, out on the street with no occupation or training. Prabhupāda: First of all, you are not trained up. You are sometimes becoming astrologer, sometimes this, sometimes that. Devotee (1): It's true, because of my birth in this... Prabhupāda: So how they can follow you? Devotee (2): We're not asking them to follow us. We're asking you Prabhupāda, that these are some problems. Prabhupāda: My request is that first of all you adopt yourself the Vaiṣṇava ācāra. Then you try to teach others. Otherwise you have no right. Devotee (2): But we have done that for five years, and no one here listened to us at all. Prabhupāda: So why you are anxious to listen... You... Let them not listen. You do your own duty. Devotee (2): We had no duty. They gave us nothing to do. They would not recognize our qualities, as we understand, even of, say Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: So what can I do? Devotee (2): Well, you can make statements on certain of these things so that when they hear them, their ignorance will be dispelled. Prabhupāda: Then we have to hear both of you. We have to hear both you... There will be regular court, and we shall see. Devotee (1): Not court, simply... Prabhupāda: No, no. Devotee (2): That would be fine. Devotee (1): Okay. Prabhupāda: Before me. You are saying something. They may say something else. So brothers together, we sit down together, and bring this... Devotee (2): All right. But we have some, also, questions that don't require that. These are philosophical questions. For instance, in *Kṛṣṇa Book* there is a statement that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now you have asked that we go and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the scientific community. Prabhupāda: So everyone is servant. What is the question of four billion? Kṛṣṇa's servant... Devotee (2): No, Ugrasena, King Ugrasena, that when he was on the planet, he had four billion personal servants. Prabhupāda: That's all right. He is always the master. He... The Kṛṣṇa is the only master. Devotee (2): Not Kṛṣṇa. No. King Ugrasena, Prabhupāda. Not Kṛṣṇa. King Ugrasena. The statement is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now, we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say to them, "There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion personal servants," they laugh and say, "What did they do for toilets? What did they do for food? Where did they live?" Prabhupāda: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion? *Devotee (1): No. We want to... We want to know if the story has an allegorical meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or whether the stories within the Bhāgavatam, apart from some of them being actual, are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma chopping off the the eighty*-eight... Prabhupāda: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion. Devotee (2): We don't mean to give it up. Devotee (1): We don't mean to give it up. Devotee (2): We're saying how can we say to them... Prabhupāda: Anyone, anyone... Why you are going to preach that portion to a professor? Devotee (1): No. When they read your books, they pose that question to us. Devotee (2): They read it. They say to us. Devotee (1): And unless we can answer that question... Prabhupāda: They ask to only you, but they never ask to us. Revatīnandana: They have. Sometimes they ask me. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let them ask. But you can tell away that(?) but you don't repeat this thing. You can give up that portion. You read other portion. Devotee (1): But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Kṛṣṇa, who they can't see any more than King Ugrasena's four billion bodyguards. Prabhupāda: Don't accept. Don't accept. Devotee (2): But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong... Prabhupāda: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability. Devotee (2): That is all right. But since we are... Prabhupāda: That's all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these *Purāṇas*. In the *Purāṇas* there are many such statements. Devotee (2): Yes, but we just want to understand. Prabhupāda: Therefore many people, they do not accept *Purāṇas*. So what can be done? Devotee (2): We're just trying to understand it because we've never dealt with *Purāṇas* before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us... Prabhupāda: So let them take it and throw out, don't read it. That's all. *Devotee (2): But then they discredit the Bhagavad*-gītā. We don't like that when they discredit the Bhagavad-gītā. Prabhupāda: Why? They don't believe. What is the use? Devotee (2): Well, because we also want to know how did they have four billion personal servants just so that we'll be able to convince them and also... Prabhupāda: If a king has four billion servants, so it is not very astonishing. Why do you think that a king shall have only four servants? Devotee (2): Well, there's only two billion people on the planet right now. Prabhupāda: That's all right. Devotee (2): So where did they all go? Prabhupāda: I say you don't believe, you don't take it. Why you are insisting on that point? If you don't believe, you don't take it. If you don't believe the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you? Devotee (2): We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved, because they have not been set up by you. Prabhupāda: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are. Devotee (2): Why can we not improve it? Prabhupāda: No. There is no possibility. Devotee (2): Then what is the use of action? Prabhupāda: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Devotee (2): But we also have to make varṇāśrama society or farms or businesses. Prabhupāda: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it. Devotee (2): But we are doing it. We are. Devotee (1): We are doing it now, and that's the question... Prabhupāda: So do it in your own way. Devotee (2): We don't want to. We want to do everything Kṛṣṇa's way. Prabhupāda: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it. Devotee (2): Then, we say, what should we do? Prabhupāda: You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy. Devotee (2): No, I mean what should we do Kṛṣṇa consciously? Prabhupāda: You give up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I say. That is my advice. Devotee (2): Why should we do that? Prabhupāda: Then that I cannot say. Devotee (1): Isn't there a middle of the road? Prabhupāda: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up. Devotee (1): No. We're not finding fault. Prabhupāda: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either you accept or reject it. Devotee (1): We accept, but we would like some instruction on... Prabhupāda: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you. Devotee (1): No, we accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy... Prabhupāda: That's all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject. Devotee (1): We accept. Devotee (2): We want to apply it. Devotee (1): We want to apply it to the world as it is now. Prabhupāda: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized. Devotee (1): Well, who is authorized? Prabhupāda: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business. Devotee (2): Then what does it mean to become disciple? Prabhupāda: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up. Devotee (2): We do like it. Prabhupāda: You have already given up. Devotee (2): If we didn't like it, we would not come here. Prabhupāda: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair. Devotee (2): Many of your disciples do. Prabhupāda: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples. Devotee (2): All right. That is clearing some things up. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): This is what we want to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): Because then that is an unequivocal statement. Prabhupāda: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation. Devotee (2): What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules and regulations. Prabhupāda: Then let them follow. That's a good life. But from external features he must be a Vaiṣṇava. Devotee (2): To get second initiation. Devotee (1): Does that mean shaved head? Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka, so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a crematory ground. Devotee (2): Why is that? Prabhupāda: There is no "why." If you accept it, accept. If you don't accept, leave us, leave us. There is no "why." Devotee (2): Then that is... Prabhupāda: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why. Devotee (2): We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupāda. So I'm sorry that it has to be this way. Prabhupāda: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don't accept him. Devotee (1): Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who... Prabhupāda: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That's all. Devotee (2): But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent class? Prabhupāda: So that is their business. That is not your business. Devotee (2): We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business because we are sincerely trying. Prabhupāda: So why you are bothering me? You do your business. Devotee (2): Because from you only... Prabhupāda: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs. Devotee (2): I did not know that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (2): You never told me that in Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Now I say, I'll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs, he is no more my disciple. Devotee (2): All right. Prabhupāda: This is the first condition. Devotee (1): Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply for brahmacārī dharma? Even you... I have pictures of you on the *Bhāgavatam* when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to brahmacārīs, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that...? Prabhupāda: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture, mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have shaven. Devotee (1): Well, in India where one can do business... Prabhupāda: I can... Why you are bringing this question? You ask, "Why you had mustaches?" I say when I had mustaches, at that time, I was not initiated. That answer is given. That's all. Devotee (2): Can I ask one more question, Prabhupāda? What I would like to understand is why it is wrong to ask why? If I can just understand this, why it is wrong for us to ask you in a submissive way. We were humbly asking you these "whys," not because we are trying to be intimidating or we were trying to rebel, but because we have sincerely tried to understand as your disciples. Prabhupāda: So you better ask my so many other disciples? Devotee (1): They don't have any answers. Prabhupāda: Then there is no answer. I cannot attend so many things. Devotee (2): We are not so many. Devotee (1): But these are the same questions which we have talked over with Revatīnandana Swami and Jayatīrtha. A great many... Prabhupāda: If my disciples, advanced students, cannot answer, then I am sorry. I cannot answer. I cannot answer. Devotee (2): That we did not know. That we did not know. Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you know it. I have appointed so many GBCs because to help me. It is not possible to see everyone, individual. This is not... Devotee (1): But these are the same questions which they themselves are posing to you. Revatīnandana: I have never met any other people who asked questions on the level that they are asking questions. I cannot answer many of their questions. I have studied all your books. Prabhupāda: I cannot. If you cannot, I cannot also. Because you have been taught by me, if you cannot, then it is... Devotee (2): We have also been taught. Revatīnandana: I have read your books, and I have heard you lecture. And so many things they are asking, I am, have no capacity to answer them. But you must have the capacity because you know Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they want to ask you personally. Devotee (1): So that is the... Prabhupāda: So far I am not so able to answer. I admit my fault. Devotee (1): Oh, so then that is... Prabhupāda: I cannot answer. Devotee (1): I understand. Okay? But they are saying, the general conception of you is that because you know Kṛṣṇa... Prabhupāda: You can... You... Devotee (1): (interrupting) Excuse me. Because you know Kṛṣṇa, therefore you know everything about the material world and can answer all questions. Prabhupāda: So whatever I know I have explained in my books. Beyond that I have no knowledge. Devotee (2): If that is the case, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that does not diminish our respect for you in the least because we have always held... Prabhupāda: So what can I do? I say that whatever I have got experience, I am explaining in my books. I have explained. So it is not possible for me to answer every individual person. It is not possible. Devotee (2): We respect that. We understand. It is just that because they are saying these things... Prabhupāda: I have got my advanced students. They can answer. If they are unable, answer, if you do not find answer from my books, then it is hopeless. Devotee (1): Ah! But your advanced students are saying if they give an answer that because they have been appointed by you, therefore their answer is perfectly correct, because, absolutely correct on all things in the relative world because, they have been appointed by you, and because you know... Prabhupāda: You may... That's all right. If you don't believe them, you can finish business. Devotee (2): But are they correct? That's what we want to know. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are correct. Devotee (2): That everything they say is the absolute truth? Prabhupāda: So what can I say? But I have no time to meet everyone. Devotee (2): Is that correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda? I want to know very clearly that every word that anyone whom you have appointed says is completely correct on all things? Prabhupāda: Yes. If they are authorized, it is correct. Devotee (2): If they are authorized by you to be temple president... Prabhupāda: There is no reply. Devotee (2): Then when (name witheld) said to me that he wanted to have homosexual affair with me, I should have said, "Okay. Whatever you say." Is that correct? Prabhupāda: So how to answer these questions? Devotee (2): That is what he said to me. And he was a sannyāsa. He is sannyāsa and he said to me, "I want to have sex with you." Does that mean that Kṛṣṇa was saying I should have sex with him? Jayatīrtha: So you have to see whether it is according to our principles. Devotee (2): I'm asking you on a very practical... No. That is not what he said. He didn't say that. He said absolutely, and this is... Upendra: Then you should listen to everything he said. Devotee (2): I am. Because if I can judge then, if I can say, "Oh, at this point he is wrong," then that is what we are talking about, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is the issue. If they are absolutely right all the time and they can make no error, they wield absolute power over our lives. Prabhupāda: Where is (name witheld)? Where is (he)? Satsvarūpa: He is across the street. Prabhupāda: Has he said like that? Devotee (2): Yes. I have witnesses. Upendra: But he's admitted his error. Devotee (2): That's beside the point. Revatīnandana: That's all right. But that's not the point here. Upendra: The point is that Prabhupāda, that if you come before Prabhupāda for your own spiritual advancement, then it doesn't matter what other people are thinking... Devotee (2): That's not the... Devotee (1): That's not the crux of the matter at all. Revatīnandana: The point here is not to criticize (him). Devotee (1): No. We did not come for that at all. Revatīnandana: That wasn't the reason. The point is that anyone, (name witheld) or anybody else, he may be a sannyāsī, but if he's doing all kinds of nonsense, how can we say that he has absolute authority? Because he was in charge of the place, etc., and he is also in an authoritative position, yet he breaks the principles. Devotee (2): His personal servant, when he came... His name is (name witheld). (He) instigated a homosexual affair with him. This boy came to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and surrendered to (him). But (he) told him to do that. Upendra: But Prabhupāda... Devotee (2): Wait. I am not speaking with you. He said he did that and he did it in the name of his authority as a sannyāsa. So if you say, Prabhupāda, that everything that they say is absolutely true, then they will have absolute power and can do anything that they want, and anything that they say and any opinion they express is taken to be the same as yours, then it becomes implied that you agree with and condone such things, because they do them with absolute license. And we don't believe that to be true. So we think it is some kind of mistake. Prabhupāda: They say like that? Devotee (1): Everyone says like that. Devotee (2): They do, Prabhupāda. Satsvarūpa: No, they don't. Śrīla Prabhupāda has said these things don't apply to you. Don't worry about them because you are not following the principles. Devotee (1): But they do say, and we are following and you don't know what we're doing, Satsvarūpa, because you haven't known me for two years. So you really don't know what I'm doing. You're not around. Satsvarūpa: But our society is going nicely. It's not... Devotee (2): In some respects it's going fine. But these are problems which can be dealt with amongst us, and they are affecting all of us. And for some people these are problems though they may not be for you. I think, as far as I know, your conduct has always been very honorable. But for some people who it's not and where these misconceptions apply, it's a real problem and we're trying to deal with it because it affects our lives. Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sādhanācāra. Devotee (2): We are also attempting to follow sādhanācāra. And if we are imperfect... Prabhupāda: Anyway, if he has said so, that is wrong. Devotee (1): But is that then applying to everyone. Does someone who is in the adminis... (end) Morning Walk -- June 27, 1975, Los Angeles Devotee (1): They only take one master usually. Brahmānanda: It's a German dog. Prabhupāda: Oh. Don't care for other? Devotee (1): No. They train them that way. Brahmānanda: What are those, deer? Satsvarūpa: This is a zoo. Kuruśreṣṭha: Those are elk. [break] Prabhupāda: ...your American Congress Library they placed a standing order, eighteen books, whatever I published each book. So I have tried so many, what is called, GBC. They are not very expert to organize in India. So if you think you can do it... Now we have got sufficient place in Bombay. So if you take charge of this distribution of books not only in India but neighboring countries just like Hong Kong, Singapore, if you think you can do that, that will be nice. You have got experience, how to distribute books. So you think over. Now we have got very nice place in Bombay. We have got place for at least fifty men very comfortably. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. And there's godowns and (indistinct) space, everything. Prabhupāda: Everything, we have got enough facility. We are not going to rent anyone, anyway, any room. We shall utilize it for our purpose only, receiving guest, organizing this book sale. That is my idea. Jagadīśa: Thank you very, very much for asking me. I will go immediately. Prabhupāda: You are capable. I know that. He is very capable. You know how to do business, yes. In India an educated man and big, big government officers, lawyers, they will purchase. We do not approach them. School, colleges, library, universities. After all, English language is still current in India. It is not stopped. So they will like to read their own literature in English. They made vigorous propaganda to replace English by Hindi. That has failed. That has failed. No gentleman cares to learn Hindi. (chuckles) At least I never cared. I know Hindi, not by diverting my attention, no. That is very important, no. Automatically whatever I learned, that's all. I am not in favor of that Hindi. Especially in South India, they are all... So by appointing some professional men also. Brahmānanda: Some agents. Prabhupāda: Some agents, selling agents. Simply one has to organize vigorously. Paramahaṁsa: There's that big book company, Wheeler? Prabhupāda: Wheeler, yes. They can take all small books. They cannot take... Brahmānanda: We'd sell them in the train stations? Jagadīśa: Yes. Brahmānanda: That Wheeler, they have shops in every train station. Prabhupāda: Yes. Jayatīrtha: When I was there once, I was in the market and I had a Kṛṣṇa trilogy with me and the man who was selling the fruits he started to look at it, and he was so impressed that he immediately offered me ten rupees. And then a big crowd of people came around, and they were looking at the pictures and everything, and they were all bidding, they all wanted that, for ten rupees, they were demanding that I sell it to them. A big crowd of people, they were all willing to pay ten rupees because they'd never seen anything like this book before. *Prabhupāda: What is the position of Bhagavad*-gītā? Macmillan, you are not taking supply, so they have stopped? Jayatīrtha: We've informed them that the..., we want to make the..., because they no longer have it in print, that the abridged edition, we want to break the contract. Prabhupāda: No, that is already, they have permitted. Anyway, you can... Jayatīrtha: But as far as the other one is concerned we have a stock on hand. Prabhupāda: What they are doing? Brahmānanda: They're picking the papers. Prabhupāda: Oh. He's earning forty dollars daily? Jayatīrtha: At least. Prabhupāda: Just see. For picking up the paper they have to pay so much. [break] (walking:) ...is we want to distribute books vigorously because general public, they have not yet understood what is the importance of this movement; neither they have any knowledge. The general public, maybe with some exception in India, they are simply like cats and dogs. They have no knowledge, that what is the purpose of this life (indistinct) and... Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā. That is stated. Pravṛtti means what we should accept, what kind of life we should accept and what kind of life we shall reject. This is their first ignorance. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ āsurāḥ janā [Bg. 16.7]. And what is the next line? Jagad āhur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. Jayadvaita: Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro... Prabhupāda: Nāpi cācāro. Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro... Jayadvaita: Na satyaṁ teṣ... Prabhupāda: Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate. This is the whole population. They do not know... There are big, big nation, big, big philosopher, big, big scientists and all very big, but what kind of life they should live, they do not know. What is the accurate destination of our life, that they do not know. And all humbug, big, big scientist, philosopher, theologist, and so on, so on, politician, sociologist, welfare. But real thing, they are rascal. They do not know which way we have to go. So what is the use of these big, big words? They do not know which way to go. Suppose we are walking. If we go to the this side without knowing that "This is water; we should not go," then what is the use? That is their defect. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na vidur āsurāḥ janā. Na śaucaṁ nāpi cācāro [Bg. 16.7]. (chuckles) Śaucam, cleanliness, they do not know, neither behavior. Nāpi cācāro. Jagad āhur anīśvaram; *[Bg. 16.8] "Oh, there is no God. It has come out out of the sand." This is the whole population. Jagad ahur anīśvaram [Bg. 16.8]. Which way we shall go? [break] Therefore we require vigorous propaganda to make these fools to understand what is the real aim of life. That should be our propaganda. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. They have simply calculated, "Now today the bank balance is now three millions dollars, and tomorrow it will be four million." Simply, they say. Idaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. And everyone is proud, "Who is greater than me? Who can understand more than me? I am very great man." Āḍhyo mām abhi... What is that? Āḍhyo mām, hmm? "I am the richest man. I am the most aristocratic. I have killed so many enemies. Now I shall kill that enemy." Everything is described in the Bhagavad*-gītā. This is their position. The rascal does not know whether he is going to be a dog next life, and if he is going to, he says, "Oh, what is the wrong? I can become dog." This is the position. [break] ...āhur anīśvaram. [break] ...trying to go to the planet, this planet, that planet. Rascal, say... They did not recognize, "Who has made this planet, where I am going?" They are taking credit by going there, but he is not giving any credit to the person or the agent who has made it. Just see. What do you think? That, "I am going there, but who has made it? Who is that person?" "No, it has come out... There was a chunk, and it became plant and then so on." This is their knowledge. And people are accepting, "Oh, great scientist. There was a chunk." Just see. Why don't you get yourself a chunk and it burst into big, big planet? (laughter) Such rascals are governing the whole human society. *Rādhā*-vallabha: They have another theory, Śrīla Prabhupāda. *Prabhupāda: Any theory, they are all rascals, that's all. (laughter) [break] ...arrangement in one planet, it has come accidentally by chunk bursting, and we have to believe them. This is their position. [break] ...this understanding comes automatically when one understands that he is soul, then. And that requires brain. Therefore we are discussing tapasā brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. We have to to create brain how to understand it. [break] ...phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavati alpa*-medhasām. It is stated, alpa-medhasām, a slight brain substance. Medha, medha what is called, cere... cere... Harikesa: Cerebral? *Prabhupāda: Cerebrum, yes. So intelligence becomes more more who has got more cerebrum. So psychologically, it is... A very intelligent man has got sixty*-four ounce cerebrum. And woman, even she is very intelligent, is not more than thirty-four ounce. Therefore we don't find, amongst women, any big scientist. It is impossible. Don't be angry. (laughter) And these rascals giving equal rights. Just see. And Vedic civilization: "No, they should be protected." The woman should be protected by the father, by the husband, and by elderly sons. No independence. [break] ...she is my sister. She is old, about three years less than me, but she has got sons. She is very happy moving, protected by the sons. Even Kuntī, such intelligent woman, such educated and..., she also kept herself under her sons, the Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas lost the game. They were banished, but Kuntī was not banished. But she said, "Then how shall I...? I must go with my sons." Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. So Rāmacandra was ordered by His father, "My dear son, You have to go forest for fourteen years." Sītā was not ordered. But she voluntarily followed. "Where shall I go? You are my husband. You are going to the forest? I shall go to the forest." This is Vedic civilization. And because she went with her husband, the Rāma-Rāvaṇa fight was there. Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. It is said that "When you go to a, foreign country, you don't take woman with you." Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. But she said that "Where shall I remain for fourteen years? I must go with You." So Rāmacandra had to agree. And on account of taking this wife along with Him, there was so much trouble. And the husband is so responsible that... Lord Rāmacandra, He is God. He could create thousands and millions of Sītās, but not for one Sītā He killed the whole family. That is husband. That is the duty of the husband. If wife's a little hair is infringed, he should take steps immediately. That is husband, not that accept wife today and give it up tomorrow. That is not husband. Husband must be very responsible to take care of the wife, and wife must be very chaste to serve the husband. Then family life is all right. [break] ...do not understand that "I am a living entity. I am encaged in this material body, and this material body means subjected to so many miserable condition." That they cannot understand. So my first business is how to be free from this repetition of accepting a material body. That they are not... A temporary life for fifty years or sixty years, they are busy, making very, very, gorgeous arrangement. This is asuric civilization. He does not take it very seriously that "I am encaged in this material body. My first business is how to get out of it and remain in my spiritual body." They get one type of body, and, like cats and dogs, engage, how to keep that body in sense gratification. That's all. [break] ...spiritual education, that "I am spiritual, spirit soul. I am encaged in this body. I want freedom. That is my first business, how to become liberated." No, that question set aside. Now, for the time being, we are walking here, and if there is some misunderstanding, we fight, forgetting that we have come here for walking, say, for half an hour. And why we shall forget our real business? That intelligence is not there. [break] ...India the Indira Gandhi was made as all in all. Now there is a catastrophe. We do not know what is going to happen. Brahmānanda: They say she is the most powerful woman in the world. Prabhupāda: Yes, very powerful. Now she is going to hell, so powerful. She is so powerful, now she is going to hell. Kāśīrāma: The United Nations has declared this year International Woman's Year so that all the women can gain more liberation from the bondage of being under the supremacy of man. Prabhupāda: But how to get liberation, not being pregnant? Kāśīrāma: That's one of the programs. Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be liberated, not being pregnant. The man will be pregnant equally. (laughter) Where is that liberation? Can they make any resolution, "Now, man has to become pregnant also equally." Jayatīrtha: The scientists will begin work on that. Prabhupāda: Yes, let these rascals engage in that work, how a man can become pregnant. (laughter) "Yes, we are trying, we shall do in the future." They will say like that, yes. [break] ...there are women police. You know that? So they were guiding... I said that "If somebody captures your hand, then where is your police force?" Any young boy sixteen, seventeen years old can capture any two, three women, and he can control. And where is the police force? Brahmānanda: They're now making women firemen. Prabhupāda: Firemen? Brahmānanda: Yeah. So all the wives and girlfriends of the firemen, they have lodged a protest because they are afraid... Because the firemen, they, often they have nothing to do. So they are afraid that if there are women firemen that the women firemen will steal away the husbands. So they have made a protest. Because practically they have to remain together. They have to live together in the firehouse. Prabhupāda: Oh. That is bondage. Brahmānanda: Well, they're afraid that there will be illicit activity between the firemen and the firewomen. (laughter) Jayatīrtha: Now they're changing the names. Anything that implies sexism they want to change the name. Just like "seamstress," now they have to call, "sewing machine operator." Because "seamstress" implies that it's a woman's job. So they say, "sewing machine operator." Or "firemen," they have to say, "fire prevention operator" or something like that. Kirtiraja: Mailman? Jayatīrtha: Mailperson. Kirtirāja: Mailperson. But then they can't even do that because it's male. Revatīnandana: (indistinct) Bahulāśva: They're going crazy now in this country, Prabhupāda. Men are having operations to become like women. Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a student here? (laughter) Bahulāśva: He's in San Francisco. Or she's in San Francisco. Prabhupāda: Why not woman become man? Then that will be nice. Manpower will increase. Because every country the population of woman is bigger than the man. So if a woman can be made into man, then manpower will increase. Jayādvaita: Then the women will decrease. Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of decrease. They are already increased. They will be equal quantity. [break] ...is there, therefore the dogs are not there. Dogs? Best friend, dogs, are not there today because the policeman is there. Jayatīrtha: Oh, this man. Kirtirāja: That's Hayagrīva's and Kīrtanānanda's friend. Jayatīrtha: Dr. Henderson. Kirtirāja: George Henderson, yes. Prabhupāda: Who? Kirtirāja: Right here, standing here. He just went like this to you. [break] Brahmānanda: I asked him to prove mathematically that one minus one equals one. Prabhupāda: [break] ...doing there? Brahmānanda: Getting the clams. Bahulāśva: He is going to eat them. Brahmānanda: (in car) ...difficult to get visas for Trinidad and Guyana. Especially Trinidad. And once he even got a visa and they rejected it at the border. Prabhupāda: There is no need of... [break] Brahmānanda: Oh, Same situation of having a Negro government with a large Indian population. [break] ...will have to be gotten from inside the country and then sent to us here. Jagatpuruṣa: Well, we would call Śeṣa Nārāyaṇa who is the speaker of the house and he would tell us that we could come. Prabhupāda: On the whole, we should not take any risk. That is not good. Then we shall postpone everything. [break] Brahmānanda: ...this Mr. Henderson, he is living, looking like a... Prabhupāda: Hippie. Brahmānanda: Yes, hippie. Jayatīrtha: He makes things for Spiritual Sky. He's not employed by them, but he makes things and sells them to Spiritual Sky. [break] ...job as a professor, but he doesn't want to. [break] Prabhupāda: ...say "impossible" is a word found in fool's dictionary. Jayatīrtha: Jaya. (car drives past devotees chanting) Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end) Morning Walk -- June 28, 1975, Denver Prabhupāda: (in car:) ...Denver. And how we are getting response from the public? Satsvarūpa: They get nice attendance on Sunday. Many people come. Prabhupāda: There is good hope. Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. Good book distribution here too. Prabhupāda: That is the most successful. Wherever book distribution is going on nicely, that is successful, because people are in gross ignorance. They are taking this temporary life as everything. Very horrible condition. We are trying to explain what is the actual life. Satsvarūpa: Here in Denver they have to compete with many bogus groups. This is the world headquarters of Guru Mahārājaji and many other... They like to come here, the mountains. So they're always making our propaganda against them. Prabhupāda: So make propaganda against them vigorously. We have got sound footing. What these nonsense have? Tell them all nonsense, bogus. This rascal Guru Mahārājaji is God, and the other rascals are accepting him God? This rascaldom is going on in such civilized city? He is God? Satsvarūpa: Well, Kuruśreṣṭha, the president, says that the local people are very much disgusted with him. They don't like him. Prabhupāda: Challenge that "I shall kick on the face of this rascal, and if he is God, let him punish me. If he is God, let him punish me. I am prepared. So come on in the public. I kick on his face, and let him do whatever he likes. I am prepared. If it is God, let me (him) kill me by his mantra or by his will. Then I will accept him." This is challenge, that "I shall kick on his face in public, and if he is God, let him punish me." And you are so fool that you are accepting this rascal as God? You belong to American nation, advanced. You have become so rascal? Challenge like that. He has come to cheat you, and why you are so befooled that you are being cheated? He is convicted in the court that he is a, what is called, deceiver. Yes. The court judgment is there. He is a deceiver. Brahmānanda: There's now a warrant for his arrest. Prabhupāda: Now there's a warrant for his arrest. What he can do? And he is God? God is so cheap and you have accepted him as God? What is this nonsense? But we give you credit, that you are searching after God. That is... So try to understand by education. What is this nonsense, blindly accepting some rascal as God? Everyone knows God is great. Is he great? Then why he is punished by the court? This is the park? Satsvarūpa: Yes. *Prabhupāda: And very nice park. And not far away. [break] ...interested with this natural history. That means Darwin's theory. That's all. Their whole civilization is based on this Darwin's theory. How long you shall keep history? Do you know what is the history of the sun, when it was created, when it came into appearance? Can Darwin give us the history of the sun, of the moon, of the sky? Where is the history? There is history, but where is your history? You simply imagine, "There was a chunk, and it became manifested as the sun, moon, and I am also this..." What is this? How this cosmic manifestation came into existence*-your explanation is: "There was a chunk." And what other nonsense? [break] walking: ...house is on the water? No. [break] ...coughing. Catch cold? Harikeśa: Hawaii was not a very healthy place for me. Hawaii. Prabhupāda: Oh. Harikeśa: All the rain and the sun and the rain. *Prabhupāda: [break] ...you will find today's text. It has given very nice example, that the prostitute changes her dress to attract people. Similarly, we are changing our dress for sense gratification. Yes. [break] Nature, material nature, has been described as the prostitute, and we are trying to become the husband of the prostitute. Has anyone become happy by becoming husband of a prostitute? (laughs) [break] ...Paṇḍita has said, duṣṭā bhāryā śāṭhaṁ mitraṁ bhṛtyaś cottara*-dāyakaḥ, sasarpe ca gṛhe vāso mṛtyur eva na saṁśayaḥ. A prostitute wife, duṣṭā bhāryā, and dupli..., what is called, duplicity? One who speaks something and heard something? What is called? Hypocrite. Brahmānanda: Hypocrisy. Prabhupāda: "Hypocrite friend and prostitute wife and servant replying, duṣṭā bhāryā śāṭhaṁ mitraṁ bhṛtyaś cottara..., and sasarpe ca gṛhe vāso, and living in a room where there is a snake, mṛtyur eva na saṁśayaḥ, he will die." There is no doubt about it. His life will be spoiled. This is the Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's. [break] ...name of this park? Nitāi: This is City Park. They call it City Park. [break] Prabhupāda: ...good because it is Indian climate. Is it not? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: What do you think? Satsvarūpa: It is good...? Prabhupāda: Because it has got Indian climate. Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. There's a very high altitude. It's a mile high. They call it "the mile high city." Because it's five thousand feet above sea level. It's supposed to be good for health. Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...in India up country. Up country, in northern India. It is very good health, Punjab, because up country. [break] ...place Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, Brahmānanda: She killed her son. Prabhupāda: Yes. On account of paramour. Harikeśa: On account of what? Prabhupāda: Paramour. Harikeśa: Paramour? Prabhupāda: Yes. Recently, within ten years. And he committed suicide, this my God brother. Everyone is, every father is affectionate to the son, and when he saw, "This is my wife, and she has killed my son." And the son saw the paramours were coming, and he says, "Who are these men, coming?" You see? This question is also dangerous. Harikeśa: There was a big scandal in Gujarat. Prabhupāda: That boy who was with me... What is his name? In the beginning he went with me, San Francisco? Satsvarūpa: Mukunda? Prabhupāda: No, no. Rancor. Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: He told the history of his mother. Yes. Brahmānanda: [break] ...is also a rogue. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He was canvassing, "What is this nonsense, 'No women, no illicit sex' "? He gave car." (?) Brahmānanda: He was supplying women to his son. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. "What is the wrong?" He was coming to our Second Avenue to call his son, "Why you are in this association? Come." At last, we could not save him. The father took away. [break] ...museum? Kurusretha: Some kind of boat house or... Devotee (1): It used to be a musical thing. They'd put pontoons out in the lake. Kuruśreṣṭha: They would have concerts in there in the past. Prabhupāda: [break] No mango here? Kuruśreṣṭha: No mango. Prabhupāda: What is this? They do not... Kuruśreṣṭha: Only apples and peaches will grow in this state. Prabhupāda: Why not mango? The climate is good for mango. Kuruśreṣṭha: In the winter it's very cold. Prabhupāda: Oh. Very cold? Kuruśreṣṭha: Very cold. Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the temperature? Kuruśreṣṭha: Zero to twenty, thirty. Prabhupāda: Oh. Below zero? Kuruśreṣṭha: Sometimes, at night. Ten below. Prabhupāda: Like New York? No, New York was never below zero. [break] Winter, how many months is continuing? Kuruśreṣṭha: Four or five months. Prabhupāda: Four, five months. Always snow? Kuruśreṣṭha: Sometimes snow. Prabhupāda: So why the temperature is so low unless there is snow? Brahmānanda: The mountains, in the mountains there is snow? Kuruśreṣṭha: At like eleven, twelve thousand. This is five thousand feet altitude, here in Denver. Prabhupāda: Snow falls above ten thousand feet? Kuruśreṣṭha: Oh, yes. Prabhupāda: [break] ...Kashmir, that is sixteen thousand feet. [break] ...do not sink? Guarantee? (laughter) [break] ...glass building. Kuruśreṣṭha: That's a hospital, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The temple is in a hospital zone. It keeps the price of the land very high. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] Brahmānanda: ...hospital is more expensive? *Kuruśreṣṭha: All, in this area, doctors and high class, so*-called high class men live. Prabhupāda: The real doctor is he who can cure material disease. What do you think? Satsvarūpa: You said Murāri Gupta was a doctor in both ways. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: [break] Prabhupāda, yesterday one of the library parties visited this Maharishi University which is an estate nearby. And it's very impressive they said. It's a big university, many buildings. But in the library they had no books of Vedic literature, so they took our books. And they said they are very glad to get them. They had nothing. Buildings, but no books. Prabhupāda: University without books. (laughter) Very good university. Anyway, if they are taking our books, that is good. What he will have? He is also another bogus man. But you people want to be cheated by this yoga, meditation. Therefore he has been able to get some facility. Only a selected group has come to me. Otherwise, they do not understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kuruśreṣṭha: Those people won't listen to any philosophy. Prabhupāda: Therefore they have been cheated by this man. Kuruśreṣṭha: Even we give good explanations which they can't... *Prabhupāda: They cannot understand the simple thing that the child has got his future, the boy has got his future, and the young man has got his future, so why not the old man? Such a dull head they have. You see. If the child says, "No, no, I have no future. I shall remain always child," is it possible? And similarly, if you say. "No, no. After old body, everything is finished. Now it is dead." So they are such dull-headed men. The simple truth cannot understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. This is the position. The example is so nice and so simple and they cannot understand. What is their brain? Animal brain. Dog race, horse race*-they want this, rat race. That's all. Their civilization is race, dog race, horse race, rat race. That's all. They do not know anything. And I am talking this simple thing because you are in confidence. Otherwise I would not have sa... Only rascals, animals, the western people. So now it is motor race, from dog race to motor race. And does it mean if the dog is running on, race, on a car, does it mean he is not a dog? The same race, either by jumping on the land or in the motor car. The race is the same, the dog is the same. So when you have come, just now? Brahmatīrtha: No, I have been here. I was walking behind. *Prabhupāda: So it is a civilization of dog race. The man does not know, "By riding on a car, racing, is there any value if I do not know what is the meaning of my life?" Hmm? So this is going on. Big, big road for dog racing*-that is civilization. [break] The rascal yogis, they say that "By this transcendental meditation you will keep your dog race very nice." They are attracted, "Oh, very nice. It is very nice." That's all. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. All mū..., rascals. Only hope is that you distribute books, as much as possible, whole Europe, whole America. If they come to some day, they will realize what is this value. [break] ...day they will realize that what valuable books we have left for the study of the whole world. That will come. [break] ...London city there is a big hall for dog race, you know that? Many people are coming to see the dog race. You have been in London? Brahmatīrtha: No, but I know that... Yeah, I was in London, but I didn't see the dog race, but they have that in America also. Brahmānanda: In this country they have also. Brahmatīrtha: In Florida it's very popular. Kuruśreṣṭha: Denver it's very popular. Prabhupāda: For dog race? (laughter) Kuruśreṣṭha: We've gone there for distributing books before. Prabhupāda: Anyway... And Australia also, Sydney, oh, they are very fond of dog race. Every man is coming with big big, dog for racing purpose. Satsvarūpa: It's good gambling. Prabhupāda: And Europe, the most aristocratic person means he is keeping so many horses and so many dogs. That is aristocracy. They will ride on the horse, and taking their dogs, they will go to the forest and kill some innocent birds. That is their heroic activities. We went to see one palace in France. Satsvarūpa: Yes, I remember. In the hall they had all pictures of those activities. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Killing birds and fox. Prabhupāda: That is aristocracy. [break] ...cannon, there was fight? Or this man is very famous hero? There was statue of Napoleon also in Paris. And they identify Napoleon and France, the same. But France is there; there is no Napoleon. (laughter) Napoleon finished, Hitler finished, Gandhi finished. [break] Brahmānanda: That statue where Napoleon is, formerly there was another statue there of Louis XIV. So Napoleon, he pulled down that other statue and put his statue there. Prabhupāda: And somebody will come... Just like in Karachi they have pulled down Gandhi's statue, and I do not know what statue they placed. [break] Kuruśreṣṭha: ...worship these statues by the stool of crows. They worship these statues by the stool of crows. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. No, if you want to worship, then worship as we do. We have Kṛṣṇa's Deity worshiping. But what is this, keep a statue on open place and the crows pass stool on the head? (laughter) What is this respectful? In the Vedic civilization does not required. They worship deity but not like that, exposed to the crows for passing stool. That is idolism, and this is good. Brahmānanda: The Christians do this. They have Jesus Christ outside,... Prabhupāda: In the open. Brahmānanda: ...exposed. And they accuse us of idol worship. *Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. This is a place*-in every step there is danger. We are walking in a very nice park. At any moment there may be revolution, whole thing is changed. Whole thing is, becomes fire. Just like, in India now it has become. So we should remember that here in this material world, padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam, every step there is danger. Give up this place. That is the real intelligence. And the education misleading them, māyā-sukhāya, making gorgeous plans for temporary happiness. That's all. If in the slaughterhouse the animals are kept very comfortably, so what is the meaning of it? Brahmānanda: They'll still be slaughtered. Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the meaning? Satsvarūpa: No meaning. Prabhupāda: It is sure that all the animals will be slaughtered, and if the arrangement is "All right, before being slaughtered, let them live very comfortably," is that very good intelligence? The intelligence is "Why we shall be slaughtered?" That is intelligence. What is the meaning of slaughterhouse? Who can explain? Brahmānanda: Everyone dies there. Prabhupāda: No, no. Dies there... A slaughterhouse, what is the meaning of this particular word? Devotee (2): They're killed brutally. Harikeśa: A specific place where all the animals are killed. *Prabhupāda: Yes. All of a sudden many animals are killed at once. So this is also slaughterhouse. When there is need, many animals will be brought into war and killed. It is slaughterhouse. And the foolish animals, they are thinking, "We are now very comfortably situated." He forgets that "I am going to be slaughtered." Mṛtyu*-saṁsāra-sāgarāt, the ocean of slaughterhouse. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt. A slaughterhouse, being accepted as... It is called mṛtyu-loka. Mṛtyu-loka. So still, they are taking it as very comfortable place. This is their intelligence: a slaughterhouse is being accepted as very nice place. What is the answer of these animals who are going to be slaughtered? Devotee (3): Animals don't have an answer. Kāśīrāma: Just a few days ago there was a plane crash and many people died, but they were sitting very comfortably in their chairs thinking, "It is so nice," but then it was all over, finished. And in the airport I was distributing books, and I was telling them, "You could die at any moment," but they still are thinking, "I am going to enjoy." They are not caring. Prabhupāda: Where this air crash took place? Kāśīrāma: In New York. And it landed on the freeway. Satsvarūpa: A lightening bolt hit the plane. Prabhupāda: Lighting...? Harikeśa: Thunderbolt. Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see, slaughterhouse. Satsvarūpa: You said in your lecture the other day in Los Angeles that when that happens that many people are killed in one place, it means that it's arranged by the Supreme. Just like Kurukṣetra. Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated by Kṛṣṇa, that "You are thinking very patriotically that you will not kill. But it is already settled. They must be killed here. I have brought them. You kill or not kill, they will be killed. That is My plan. If you want, you take credit that you have killed." This is same arrangement. It is prearranged. War means it is bringing all the animals together and kill them, finish. And that is happening every few years after years. The Napoleon is coming for killing, and Hitler is coming for killing. Sometimes Nelson is coming for killing. But here in India the God comes for killing. Lord Rāmacandra came for killing the Rāvaṇas and Kṛṣṇa came for killing the Kauravas. Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in those mass killings pious men are killed also. At Kurukṣetra many pious men were killed? Prabhupāda: Well, when there is killing, it is not that the pious men... But mostly they were saved. The Pāṇḍavas were saved. The five brothers, they remained. Now the moon is sour. Grapes are sour? (laughter) The jackal jumped over to catch some grapes, and when he fell, "Eh, what is the use of grapes? It is sour." The jackal said. So this is... Now they say there is, that is not good for him. "Let us go to Venus. (laughter) Moon is sour." And why you spent so much money? [break] ...stone man has come. That is the museum. Brahmānanda: Stone? Prabhupāda: How from stone... Kuruśreṣṭha: Anthropologists. Prabhupāda: Modern stone does not produce. They have become modernized? (laughter) [break] Kuruśreṣṭha: In Dvaraka, when Kṛṣṇa was here, they would have such parks? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Kuruśreṣṭha: Nice walkways? Prabhupāda: Mmm. Better than this. Kuruśreṣṭha: Mangoes growing? Prabhupāda: Oh yes. In a time the swan gives birth, dozen children, and there is no overpopulation. And men are killing so many children, and still, they say overpopulation? Why overpopulation? In the animal society, bird society, they do not say it is overpopulated, neither they kill. Rather, those who are bird eaters, they will be glad, overpopulation. "We shall be able to eat them." You see. How many there are? Brahmānanda: Nine. Prabhupāda: The mother is not concerned how to feed them. [break] ...safe under the protection... They are learning from the mother how to pick up food. (end) Morning Walk -- June 29, 1975, Denver *Prabhupāda: (in car:) Coca*-cola is fifty cent? *Brahmānanda: Well, that's a very big glass of Coca*-cola. Prabhupāda: In India also, it is huge consumption. [break] ...devotee here? Satsvarūpa(?): Yes. Prabhupāda: Collecting flower? Satsvarūpa: Yes. Brahmānanda: There are more. Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Nobody says anything? Brahmānanda: No one is up at this time of the day. Prabhupāda: Sometimes they fire. You know that? Satsvarūpa: If they see us, they don't like that. That is not such a safe practice, to go in the neighborhood and pick flowers. I don't think they should do it. [break] Prabhupāda: ...first came to America, Butler, one quarter, is exactly like this. You have been in Butler? Brahmānanda: . No. Prabhupāda: Like this. Brahmānanda: I noticed that one review of your books was written by Mohanlal Sharma of Slippery Rock College. He wrote a very enthusiastic review. Satsvarūpa: Yes. He claimed to be the first one to receive you at a college. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is very nice gentleman. He came to see me in New York also, with his family. Brahmānanda: His wife is Sally? Prabhupāda: No. Brahmānanda: That's another girl. Prabhupāda: He is Gopal. He came to learn electrical engineering. Brahmānanda: Gopal. Prabhupāda: Mmm. His father is rich man. His father came to see me, yes. Brahmānanda: From Mathurā. *Prabhupāda: Mathurā, yes. His father, mother... That Sally used to say, "My husband is a lost child of their parents." He is not doing very well. He is getting $800. At that time, maybe $1,000. What is here, eight hundred, thousand dollars? He could have lived very comfortably at his father's care. He is very rich man. [break] (walking:) Thing is that people are working so hard day and night for these temporary years, and less than that laboring they can go to back to home, back to Godhead. Little labor. But they do not know. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva*-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.25], bhūtejyā yānti bhū..., mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. Just to get a nice car, a nice wife, and a few children by working so hard, bhūtejya, and the same labor, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām, if he devotes for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. And what is wrong there? We have got so many Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees. What is wrong there than these ordinary karmīs? Hmm? Are we unhappy? What do you think? Brahmatīrtha: No, nice. Prabhupāda: See? Just see the foolish people. They are working so hard for nothing. Everything will be finished after this death, and he will become a cat and dog or a tree. You see? [break] ...sometimes advocate the materialists. Kuruśreṣṭha: Sometimes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even we explain that, and they can seem to understand; still they won't do anything about it. Prabhupāda: So you have to constantly poke them. These rascals. Just like one man is sleeping. You have to call him constantly, "Mr. Such, Mr. Such, wake up, rascal. You are sleeping. Why?" This is our business. Satsvarūpa: Some people say that if we want to do this, it's all right, but we shouldn't insist and go and preach to them. Everyone has his own way. Prabhupāda: Because you are human being, you rascal, you animal, you are sleeping, we are just trying to awaken you. Because you are human being. Suppose a boy, a child, is going this side. We are human being. We shall say, "No, no, you go right"? Shall you say that? We shall try to save, "Oh, what you are doing?" That is our business. That is every human being's business, to do good to others. That is human life. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Janma sārthaka kori kara para upakāra. That is human life. Brahmānanda: Actually, according to law, if someone is in trouble, if he is being attacked by someone, and someone sees this and does not do anything to help him, he can be prosecuted. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: It is his obligation to help someone in trouble. Prabhupāda: Yes, that is humanity. Not that "This man is going to hell. Let him go to hell. I am happy. That's all." That is not humanity. Paropakāra. That is Vedic civilization, paropakāra, not to exploit others. Devotee (1): A lot of times, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that we are just escaping material life. We're not having jobs... Prabhupāda: How we are escaping? Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we don't have jobs and that we should work for... Prabhupāda: So why shall I... A rich man, does he work? We are rich men. We don't work. You rascal, you have no money. You work. We are rich men. Why shall I work? Any rich man you see, he is not working. He is escaping? What is that? Any rich man who has got money, he is not working. He is engaging all fools and rascals in the factory. So is that, is he escaping? Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we're just... Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all take one answer. That we are rich men, we are Kṛṣṇa's son. So why shall I work like you, an ass? A ass will work unnecessarily. We are not asses. Yadubara: Actually, we're more active than ever before. *Prabhupāda: Yes. We are rich man's son, Kṛṣṇa's son. Why shall I work? That is the nature. A rich man's son never works. He enjoys. We are dancing and taking nice prasādam. Why shall I work? What do you think? Poor man will work. Rich man, why they will work? He will enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña*-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. He is the proprietor of all planets, and we are servants of Kṛṣṇa, a rich man's servant. Why shall I work so hard? The ass will work hard, not a human being. And that is the instruction of Rsabhādeva. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. This human life is not meant for working so hard simply for food and sex enjoyment. That is the business of the hogs. The hogs do like that. They work day and night to find out some stool, and as soon as a little strength, he enjoys sex without discrimination, mother, sister, anybody. Is that life? Tell them, "You are working like hogs, and we are living like human being. That is the difference." If somebody does not work like hog, does it mean he is escaping? (laughter) Just see. And the hog is asking to work like hog. Why human being will accept this proposal? Marshall theory. I was student of economics. He says the human nature is, unless he has got some obligation he will not work. That is the beginning of economics. If one has got sufficient to eat, he will not work. When he is obliged to work for some reason, he works hard. That is the economic theory. So nature is... It is not escaping. If I have got sufficient to eat, why shall I work? What is the answer? This is not escaping, it is comfortable life, not to work and get everything, all necessities. That is comfort. And working hard getting the necessities, that is for the hogs and dogs, not for human being. Devotee (1): They have no faith or trust that this can be done. Prabhupāda: See us. You rascal, see, open your eyes, see that we have no business. We have no food stocked; still, we are not worried. We do not know what we shall eat in the evening, but still, we are not worried. See factually. We are not worried, "Oh, what shall I eat?" I came here without any subsistence. That I mean I had to work very hard? Kuruśreṣṭha: I think that if the karmīs tried to keep up with you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they would probably wear out. Prabhupāda: The karmīs, they work hard because they are asses. The ass example is given. Just like the picture you have seen, ass? Brahmānanda: In the movie, yes. *Prabhupāda: There? You see? He is loading so much, and what he is eating? Little grass. So the ass does not know, "The grass is available here. Why shall I work for him?" That is ass. He is working so hard for a few morsel of grass, and the grass is all over the world, but he will take the load. That is ass. My problem is eating, sleeping, mating, so I can arrange for these things very easily. Anywhere, I till the ground and get some food. I keep some cows and I have got land, then my whole economic question is solved. Why shall I make this bambhārambha*-bharam udvahato vimūḍhān, big, big...? You do it, but why should you forget your real business? That is the defect, that you are so foolish that only for this maintaining body, you have forgotten your real business. Devotee (1): Not everyone has the opportunity to get some land and some cows, to till the land and grow their food. Prabhupāda: No opportunity? Devotee (2): Not enough, Śrīla Prabhupāda, not enough land. Prabhupāda: Not enough? Let them come, I shall give them. So much land in America. They say "No land"? The all... *Yadubara: Just like the tri*-shaw driver. We invite him to our temple, but he says he has to work so hard. He will not come. Prabhupāda: He will go to the brothel. That he has got time. To the liquor house to forget his labor. This is civilization. Mūḍha, mūḍha civilization. Why the Communist are coming? Why Communist party is there? What is the philosophy, Communist? Satsvarūpa: That wealth should be shared by everyone. *Prabhupāda: That means they also do not wish to work so hard. They are seeing that "Capitalists are sitting very comfortably and (we) working." They are also thinking, "Escaping." Is it not? So the natural tendency is that "I will not work, and still, I will get my necessities." That is natural tendency. The material world means avidyā*-karma-samjñānya tṛtīyā śaktir iśyate. This is out of ignorance they are working so hard. In the spiritual world there is no question of working. You get everything. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu. Everything, whatever you want. So why not endeavor to go there? Why should you work like hogs and dogs? Viśakha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, they will accuse us of being parasites. Prabhupāda: No, I am not parasite. Your master. How do you say parasite? I am not going to beg from you. Parasites? Brahmānanda: Parasite lives off another. *Prabhupāda: No, parasites means if I take others' property, others'. If I enjoy others'..., that is parasite. But we are not enjoying others' property. We are enjoying our father's property. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. Why do you say parasite? And we are good children of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, "Don't work, I shall give you everything." (laughter) Actually, Kṛṣṇa says that, that "Why you are working so hard?" Sarva*-dharmān parityajya mām...: [Bg. 18.66] "You just under Me, I shall give you protection, whatever you want." And we are getting everything. Why parasite? [break] Satsvarūpa: ...received in Switzerland, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that man said, "What if everyone became like you devotees?" He was worried that the economy would collapse, he said, if everyone took to this. *Prabhupāda: Well, at least he will not take, and the economy will go on. There will be a class of men like him. They will never take. So there is no problem. Your economy will go on. (laughter) [break] ...the prisoners become free, how the prison house will go on? Is that very nice question? What is the use of prison house? For the criminals? [break] ...thinking in that way, that "We are giving up meat, and the slaughterhouse proprietors, they are sorry. Then how our business will go on?" As if that is a very nice business. The sooner you close that business, it is good for you. But he is thinking "How my business will go on? If all these people give up meat*-eating, then how this slaughterhouse will go on?" That is the logic. And our logic is the sooner you close this slaughterhouse, the better for you. This is our logic. (to devotee:) Which way? [break] ...liquor shop, the breweries, they are worried, "How business will go on. They are giving up." Cigarette factory. They will be sorry. Kuruśreṣṭha: In this state of Colorado, the main industry is slaughter. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Kuruśreṣṭha: The main industry in this state of Colorado is the slaughter of cows. [break] Prabhupāda: ...jīva mā mara. The slaughterhouse maintainer is advised that "You don't die, don't live." Mā jīva mā mara. "Your position... Now you are... If you live, just see how horrible business you are doing. And if you die, you will be slaughtered. So better you don't die, don't live." Mā jīva mā mara. [break] ...nice park, nobody is coming. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we are taking advantage. (laughter) They have worked so hard, they are sleeping. We are taking advantage. So they are escaping or we are escaping? Just see how foolish they are. They have worked so hard, and they are not taking advantage. We are taking. So our policy is that "You work hard, and we go and take from you." This is not escaping. This is intelligence, that "You work hard, rascal. You are foolish asses. And we take advantage." Our George Harrison, he is working hard, in England (?). And he worked hard, and he gives a house, Bhaktivedanta Manor. We are not going to construct. Is that escaping or it is intelligence, that "You work hard and give it to me. We enjoy"? This is intelligence; *that is not escaping. That is going on. The capitalists, they are engaging these rascals, asses, in the factory, and he enjoys life. That is intelligence. That is not escaping. You know the story of the stag and the jackal? The jackal fell in the well water. So he was not..., unable to come out. So one stag came there. "What is the...?" "Oh, it is so nice. I am dancing. You see? It is very nice." So he also fell down. And as soon as he fell down, he got on his head and got out. So that is intelligence, that "Let this rascal work hard and make a nice park for us, and we shall take advantage of it." This is intelligence. And it is called ajāgara*-vṛtti. Ajāgara-vṛtti. Ajāgara means... The big snake is called ajāgara. So this mouse, they make hole and want to live there. And they comfortably living. In the meantime, the ajāgara comes. He eats that mouse and lives comfortably. So our is ajāgara vṛtti. You work for the hole to live comfortably, but we take possession of the house and live comfortably. [break] ...Los Angeles the storekeepers, they ask our men that "You do not work. You live so comfortably. And working so hard, we cannot live so comfortably." And as soon as we ask that "You also come and join," they will not. "No, we shall work like this." We are asking everyone, "Come here," but that will not come. And that is, they are envious. Therefore they say escaping, that they are living at the cost of others so comfortably. That is their enviousness. They see, "They have got so many cars, their face is bright, they are eating nicely, and they have no problem." So they are envious. Harikeśa: They would do it immediately if they knew how. *Prabhupāda: No, we are inviting them, "Come here." Why do they not come? And that is difficult for them. To chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance, oh, it is very big, heavy task for them. They will not come. The most difficult thing is that as soon as they come and they know there is no tea, no liquor, no meat, no cigarette, "Oh, so many no's? Oh." That draft man said? That one draft man came to inquire that some of the boys, to escape from the draft man's call, they joined this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. "So what is the comfort there? They joined instead of going to..." So when he studied that there is no meat, there is no liquor, there is no smoking, there is no gambling, so he said, "It is more difficult. Still, they come." It is more difficult than to go and fight. So how it is wonderful. Actually, for the karmīs, it is very difficult job. Even Lord Zetland he said, "Oh, it is impossible to do this." And actually, it is impossible. That is the adoration of Professor Judah, that "These drug*-addicted boys, how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious?" That is his wonderful thing. You can say that "We are escaping this horrible condition of life: meat-eating, drinking, and intoxication. We are escaping that, these thing, not escaping happiness. You are escaping happiness." Satsvarūpa: The psychologist says that the real responsibility is to enjoy sex life and that, in that way, we are... Prabhupāda: But that hog also enjoys. Then what is the difference between you and hog? The hog enjoys unrestrictedly. The cats and dogs also enjoy. So what is the benefit of becoming human being, civilized man? That enjoyment is there in the hog's life in a better way. You have got some discrimination, "Here is my sister, here is my mother, here is my daughter," but there is no such distinction. You enjoy life and become a hog, and that is waiting for you, next life. There is no law of raping amongst the hogs and dogs. They can capture any female. But in the human society why there is restriction? So hogs and dogs are better enjoying sex life. You become hog and dog. Why civilized man? Kuruśreṣṭha: When we tell them that, they think, "Oh, that's very nice." Prabhupāda: You are waiting for getting that life. Wait a few years more. You will get that life. Yes. Brahmatīrtha: One scientist recently did a study on mosquitoes. They found out that all mosquitoes do is have sex and eat. And he was lamenting, he said, "Oh, these mosquitoes..." Prabhupāda: Sex and eat. Brahmatīrtha: That's all they do. He was amazed that they have so much sex life, mosquitoes. So then the scientist he was lamenting. He was thinking, "Oh, these mosquitoes, they probably do not enjoy the sex life." And he sounded as if he wished he was a mosquito to find out. Prabhupāda: Yes, mosquito, flies, I have seen. Even the sparrows. Sex life is the center of happiness in this material world. In all forms of life. That is the only. Brahmānanda: They think that sex life for humans is the best, is the better sex life, that the animals, they really don't know how to enjoy. Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If you take some palatable thing in different pot, does it mean the taste changes? You take some juice in the golden pot or iron pot. Does it mean the taste of the juice is changed on account of golden pot? That is another foolishness. Taste is the same, either you drink it in golden pot or iron pot. Kuruśreṣṭha: *Bhāgavatam* says, "Unless a person is influenced by māyā, how could he do such a thing?" Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that whatever you are doing under the influence of māyā, it is suffering. It is not enjoyment. [break] This way? [break] Kuruśreṣṭha: In Kṛṣṇaloka are there asses? Prabhupāda: Yes, maybe. But they are not these asses. Kṛṣṇa... I don't... the cowherds boys, they are keeping only cows. I never saw any ass or goat. Satsvarūpa: They killed all those asses. They killed Dhenukāsura and all those... Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, there were asses, yes. They killed. But they were asuras, of course, No, that means asses are there. Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I thought you said that the demons are not in Kṛṣṇaloka. That's just in Gokula, when Kṛṣṇa comes here. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy to kill the demons. In the Kṛṣṇaloka there is no demons. He doesn't get that opportunity. Therefore He comes down to enjoy killing. Just like hunter, by killing, enjoys, so Kṛṣṇa enjoys by killing the demons. [break] Water? Brahmānanda: Water core. [break] Prabhupāda: ...no rose here? We don't see any rose. Kuruśreṣṭha: They don't like to grow nice things for fear someone will take them. Bahulavana: There's a big rose garden by the museum. Kuruśreṣṭha: They don't grow fruit trees in the park because someone will eat them. Prabhupāda: And he will not work. Escaping. [break] ...demonic mentality, "I shall not do anything which will be enjoyed by others." And human mentality is that "I shall do something which will be enjoyed by others." That is human mentality. Brahmānanda: In India isn't it the system that after they harvest the wheat they leave some on the ground for the others to come and pick? *Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they distribute while in the field. They give to the brāhmaṇas, to the temples, to the king, and the balance they take. This is the Vedic system, that if I grow something, first of all twenty*-five percent to the king, then to the temple, to the brāhmaṇas, to the poor. And then balance, I shall take. And they produce so large quantity, they do not feel any scarcity. And when the trade came, people understood. Then they want to sell. "Why shall I give to the temple? Why shall I give to the brāhmaṇa? Save it. I shall sell it. I shall get more money, and I shall drink." When trade came. When there was no trade, you grow your own food and distribute freely. In my Guru Mahārāja's time they were collecting the rice and other food grain, huge quantity. They were giving. And now they are not giving. They think that "If I sell, I shall get so much money, and it will help me for my drinking." Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what would people do who live in areas where things are not grown so easily, like in the colder areas? Prabhupāda: Why should you live there? Why don't you come where things are grown? Kuruśreṣṭha: This excessive cold is only punishment. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kuruśreṣṭha: Previously there was not such excessive cold on the planet? Prabhupāda: There was, for the punishable person. [break] ...drinking water? Kuruśreṣṭha: Yes. Prabhupāda: Why it is open? Brahmānanda: They keep it running? Devotee (2): All the time. (end) Morning Walk -- June 30, 1975, Denver *Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni was cursed, accepted one curse. And Dakṣa*-rāja said that "I curse you that you will stay anywhere." So he said, "Yes, that is very good for me." (laughs) He could curse, counter, but he accepted, "Yes, it is a very good curse. I shall not stay anywhere." "You have spoiled my children to become mendicant, go back to home, back to Godhead. They did not enjoy this material world. You are so heinous," like that. Our students' parents, they are also thinking, "What is this nonsense, no meat-eating, no illicit sex? The enjoyment of life, everything is spoiled. They are becoming sannyāsī." So they are cursing me. Satsvarūpa: They say you must have hypnotized us to give this up. Prabhupāda: Dr. Judah, what is that, charmistic? Brahmānanda: Charismic. Prabhupāda: Charismatic. Brahmānanda: Charismatic, yes. Prabhupāda: (laughs) He also said. Yes, they are thinking it is hypnotism. "All young men, their life is for this material enjoyment, and they are giving up everything and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? What is this?" Brahmānanda: In Māyāpur there is one astrologer and he... Prabhupāda: Who is that astro...? Brahmānanda: I don't know his name. He lives in..., across, on the other side there, where the bank is. Prabhupāda: Oh, Bamanpukur. Brahmānanda: No, on the other side of the... Prabhupāda: Navadvipa? Brahmānanda: No, on the..., where the railway is. Prabhupāda: Oh, Svarūp Gañj. Brahmānanda: Yes, Svarūp Gañj. So he likes our movement very much, and he said that, he told one of our devotees that you were the most powerful personality in the world. And he has given very accurate astrology readings to some of our devotees. Prabhupāda: And he was, what he has told about me? Brahmānanda: That you are the most powerful personality in the world. *Prabhupāda: If I am representative of Kṛṣṇa, then I must be the most powerful. Kṛṣṇa has got..., all omnipotent. (laughs) Most powerful, the most my Godbrothers. That is my credit. They are thinking like that, "This man became most powerful than all of us. (Still laughing) He was a gṛhastha." They used to say all the gṛhasthas, paca*-gṛhastha. Paca means decomposed. What Bon Mahārāja is doing now? Satsvarūpa: I don't know up to date. I just know a few weeks ago he was in Canada. Brahmānanda: When our devotees go to see a professor after Bon Mahārāja has spoken with him, the professors don't want to take our books. They make complaints that our books are too sectarian, they're not scholarly, they're not..., in this way. Prabhupāda: He is making that poison. Brahmānanda: Yeah, he is giving some propaganda. Satsvarūpa: The idea that he is more scholarly and more academic. Prabhupāda: These rascals will not, "Where is your book?" Satsvarūpa: He's just got that one book, and he doesn't have that anymore. Prabhupāda: He has sold all? Satsvarūpa: I think so. I never see it anywhere in any libraries. Brahmānanda: He wanted to send some to America. [break] Prabhupāda: ...by his propaganda, they are talking like that? Brahmānanda: Well, one thing, there was one debate, and he was there, and our men were there too. And he was representing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prabhupāda: Who? Brahmānanda: Swami Bon. Prabhupāda: How? Satsvarūpa: It was an interreligion meeting, and there were representatives from different Christian..., and he was there for Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But he didn't give any strong argument; he just presented it as if it were another way. Prabhupāda: What is that way? *Satsvarūpa: Well, he said, he described it very... About Rādhā... That Lord Caitanya is Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa combined. Prabhupāda: That we say also. Satsvarūpa: Yes, but the boys who were there, they said it wasn't at all the way you speak. He wasn't saying that ours was the best. Prabhupāda: No, ours is the best, neither he is best nor it is as it is. Satsvarūpa: One of our men spoke up and said that, the president of Toronto temple, Uttamaśloka, he said, "So far we've just discussed different religions from a relative point of view. Why don't we discuss what is the Absolute Truth?" And they all became... They didn't like that. They said, "We feel defensive when you speak like this." Brahmānanda: And Swami Bon said that "You don't know so much." Satsvarūpa: Yeah, he criticized our Uttamaśloka. And then he said, "Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, they don't engage in argumentation and debate." So Uttamaśloka said, "Yes, Lord Caitanya argued with Prakāśānanda." Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. Satsvarūpa: But Swami Bon said, "No, He didn't convert him by argument, He converted him by the effulgence." Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) "But there was argument, rascal." (laughter) Satsvarūpa: And as a result of that... Prabhupāda: He is a rascal, rascal. Satsvarūpa: He told one professor that our devotees in general, they're not tolerant when someone speaks something. Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) "You are also not tolerant. Why you have come here? Because you are envious. You are the most intolerant. You are blaspheming." *Satsvarūpa: Yes. He also said that on the altar in Toronto... It's an altar just like in all our temples. He said, "Lord Caitanya should not be there with Rādhā*-Kṛṣṇa." They have them separated like... Prabhupāda: Why? My Guru Mahārāja have so many Māyāpur temples, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Brahmānanda: All the Gauḍīya temples, they all have... Bhāvānanda: Yogapīṭha has. Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Brahmānanda: Bombay. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...men should be very strong to protest. They must know he has come purposely, purposefully. Of course, he will not be able to do anything. Simply ask him, "You, sir, what you have done for the last forty years? And who asked you to start this institute? And why you were called back by Guru Mahārāja?" You ask these things. "And you performed some ceremony for neutralizing your guru*-aparādha." He did it. Some astrologer... He admitted that "I have offended my Guru Mahārāja. So I am not improving. So can you suggest anything?" He said that "You offer 108 bilva patra to Lord Śiva." And he did it for so many... Brahmānanda: Prāyaścitta, is that called? Prabhupāda: Prāyaścitta, yes. Brahmānanda: You mention that in your *Nectar of Devotion*, that if some offense is committed, it's not necessary to perform any rituals but to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and that one will become purified in that way. Prabhupāda: So nobody knows where he is? Satsvarūpa: He was staying sometimes in New York City in a place called the Theological Seminary. He was being put up there. Prabhupāda: Theological Seminary? Satsvarūpa: I've never heard of the place. Bhāvānanda: Columbia? New York Theological Seminary Prabhupāda: He might have started. He might have started. Satsvarūpa: And also he felt offended that the Brooklyn temple did not invite him. He said they knew he was there, but they didn't invite him. Prabhupāda: (To Bon:) Why? You could see there. It is a Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava temple. Temple... I invited him from... Brahmānanda: From Hawaii you wrote a letter. He spoke at several of our temples, Toronto and Ottawa. Prabhupāda: So how did you go there? Did he...? Satsvarūpa: He has some patrons among the professors. I know this one Professor O'Connell, he kept him at his home for some days and did some advertising for him for meetings. And then he has another professor friend in Montreal. So he knows different people. He has contacts. [break] Prabhupāda: ...net result. Has he started anything? Satsvarūpa: No. Bhāvānanda: Some trouble. (laughter) [break] Prabhupāda: ...come alone or with somebody else? Satsvarūpa: I think alone. [break] Brahmānanda: ...disciple in Vṛndāvana, that American boy? *Harikeśa: Asina*-Kṛṣṇa. *Brahmānanda: Asina*-Kṛṣṇa. He asked him to come also with him to America, but he refused, the disciple refused. He told me that, he said, "You know, sometimes you can't do everything that your guru tells you to do." He said, "It was a little difficult saying no to my guru, but I had to do it." Prabhupāda: His parents sponsored him. Brahmānanda: Yes. From Long Island, Rock of..., Far Rockaway, Jewish area? [break] Prabhupāda: ...did not come? That student? Brahmānanda: I think he was afraid to come and see his parents and come back to America. Harikeśa: He told me in Vṛndāvana that sometimes Bon Mahārāja is "a little too far out." His disciple said this. Prabhupāda: None of his disciples living with him. Brahmānanda: Yeah, he also said that. He said "It is too difficult to live with my guru. I must live apart." [break] Prabhupāda: ...the Christian meeting, where it was? Satsvarūpa: In Toronto, different professors. Prabhupāda: What was the subject? Satsvarūpa: Just world religions with representatives from different religions. Each would speak on their understanding. They asked him what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness or Gauḍīya Vaisnavism. Prabhupāda: And who asked for the Absolute Truth, that...? Satsvarūpa: Uttamaśloka dāsa. Prabhupāda: Hmm. So, they avoided. Satsvarūpa: Yes, they asked him... Swami Bon said, "Don't speak." Prabhupāda: Huh? Satsvarūpa: He asked Uttamaśloka, "Don't speak. You shouldn't..." Prabhupāda: What right he has got to say like that? It was a meeting. He did not say, "What right you have got to say me?" The president, he was president or what? Satsvarūpa: He's a president. Prabhupāda: No, no, in the meeting... Satsvarūpa: No, Swami Bon was just a guest also. Prabhupāda: So why he can, why he said like, "Don't speak"? Yadubara: They tried to do that to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Kurukṣetra. They did not want you to speak. Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra? No. Yadubara: They allowed you? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yadubara: But after some persuasion, I think. Brahmānanda: They wanted Prabhupāda to speak at the end. Prabhupāda: Oh. (laughs) Brahmānanda: Because you gave the final word. (laughter) Prabhupāda: Yes. So I gave them these all... What I said? *Brahmānanda: So, first you said, sarva*-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], "Give up all of this so-called religion." Prabhupāda: Yes. On cheating, I said. *Brahmānanda: Yeah. Then you, dharmaḥ projjhita*-kaitavaḥ, then "It's all this cheating." Yadubara: But the whole assembly was broken up after your speech. Brahmānanda: Yeah, then after you finished speaking, you got up and left, then the ācārya, he was supposed to speak, but then everyone else followed Prabhupāda out... (laughter) Prabhupāda: I gave my verdict, "This is all cheating." (laughs) "Then I cannot wait anymore." [break] Satsvarūpa: ...Uttamaśloka was telling me was that Swami Bon's talk was very difficult for an ordinary person to understand. He started right out by describing how Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and it was very difficult... He didn't do any preliminary... Prabhupāda: Jugglery. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Very intellectual description of the psychology. [break] Prabhupāda: ...result of that meeting? Satsvarūpa: No result. Prabhupāda: Simply talking? [break] ...come to take some students to his institution. Satsvarūpa: Something like that. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: After he speaks, he speaks about his institution. Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the institution is now closed. So he thought that he would bring some student from America. [break] He is also one of the, what is called, trustees of the... So he has said to Bon Mahārāja "You better hand it over to Bhaktivedanta Swami. You cannot do it." [break] Bhāvānanda: ...is intelligent. Prabhupāda: Yes. He is businessman. Picking up the... [break] ...in Hong Kong, they are picking up some food from this garbage. Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: You have seen it? Sudāmā: Yes. Prabhupāda: Picking up food. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...got another report from that national library convention. They have a big sign that the artist has made and it says, "The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, the World's Largest Publisher and Distributor of Books in the Philosophy, Religion, and Culture of India." Has that on their booth. And many professors and librarians come. They have given out four hundred catalogues. Mostly they don't buy on the spot. They take this catalogue back to their library. And they're from all over the country. From every part of the country they go there. Prabhupāda: So catalogues being distributed. Satsvarūpa: Yes. They're taking them. Then they take them back and check them off. And the librarians are saying, as soon as they see our booth, they say, "Any books on India and yoga and meditation, there's a great demand for them. Many young people want to read about." Prabhupāda: But we have got the largest number of books. Satsvarūpa: Yes. Prabhupāda: No other yoga system. *Satsvarūpa: World's largest. [break] ...librarians, they said, "Well, if someone comes in and asks you for a reference book on yoga and meditation, what reference books do you have?" And they admit that there are no encyclopedias or reference books on Indian philosophy. So they're describing that... our men are describing that this Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam is an encyclopedia of all Indian philosophy. *Prabhupāda: Yes. Nigama*-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam [SB 1.1.3]. The essence of all Vedic knowledge. [break] Bhāvānanda: ...a few days previous Sudāmā Mahārāja and I were in Salt Lake City. We went to the Mormon Church visitor's center. Beautiful presentation. Dioramas, so many dioramas, and a big ramp, circular ramp like we want to have in Māyāpur. You walk up into a big diorama of the universe with... Lord Jesus is there. Beautiful presentation. A bogus philosophy, but nice presentation. Prabhupāda: What is the philosophy? Bhāvānanda: That when you marry, then you are married eternally. And after you die, you go to heaven and you live with your family, your wife and your children, for ever and ever. That's their philosophy. Prabhupāda: Marry? Bhāvānanda: Eternal marriage. And when you die, you go to heaven in the same body that you're in. Brahmānanda: If you don't get married, then you don't go to heaven? *Bhāvānanda: Everyone gets married. They have a nice policy from the year nineteen to twenty*-one every man must serve missionary work all over the world, and then he comes back and is married eternally. [break] And movie theaters, eight movie theaters. Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...this way or that way? [break] What is that? Sudāmā: Cesspool, underground sewer. It's backing up. Prabhupāda: [break] It's coming out. Sudāmā: It's stopped up. They haven't cleaned it evidently, so the water is backing up with stools. Devotee: [break] In Dvārakā, did Kṛṣṇa's queens play tennis? Prabhupāda: What is the use of playing tennis? There is mention that Dvārakā they were playing ball on the roof of the palace, the queens. Maybe tennis also there. [break] ...playing this there, on the roof. Kind of exercise for the woman, queens. Devotee (1): Only for the women? Prabhupāda: Yes. No men. Devotee (2): Kṛṣṇa and His friends would play sometimes, catch with fruits in the forest? Prabhupāda: Fruits? Devotee (3): Bael fruits. Prabhupāda: Yes. They are playing in so many ways. Devotee (2): [break] ...zoo our men distributed over four hundred pieces of literature inside the zoo. [break] Back to Godhead magazines? Devotee (4): Yeah. Prabhupāda: Four hundred? Very good. [break] ...books, small books also? Devotee (4): Just magazines. We don't have any small books now. [break] ...coloring books, too, Prabhupāda. Devotee (5): Many, many children's books here. Devotee (4): Coloring books. Prabhupāda: [break] Oh, this is zoo. [break] ...one dollar. [break] ...with the leaders of the Mormon? *Devotee (2): We have talked with them before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. A man who just died one or two years ago, he had our Bhagavad*-gītā As It Is. Prabhupāda: Oh. Devotee (2): I think they have twelve apostles. Bhāvānanda: Yeah, elders. Devotee (2): And they were also interested in the books. [break] Brahmānanda: ...and the bird is also in India. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: The scientists, they would say, "Somehow or other, the bird or something..." Prabhupāda: "Somehow or other." This is science. "Somehow or other," "maybe," "perhaps." This is their science. [break] ...speculation. The whole Western countries, their all knowledge simply speculation. Nothing definite. [break] ...Professor Dimmock has "Definitive..." What is that translation, or something like? Harikeśa: Definitive. *Prabhupāda: Definitive, then translation of Bhagavad*-gītā, like that. [break] Devotee (4): Dogs, they are becoming attached to the human being. Are they becoming human beings in their next life? Prabhupāda: Maybe. [break] Yadubara: ...becoming attached to the dog. So they are becoming dogs in their... Prabhupāda: Yes. Dog is never attached. Bhāvānanda: Eat his master. Prabhupāda: That's it. Yadubara: [break] ...devotees say on saṅkīrtana there's only a dog at home. They knock on the door and there's only a dog. Prabhupāda: Who? Yadubara: Some of the devotees on saṅkīrtana. There is only a dog at home. They will knock on the door. Everyone is gone except the dog. Brahmānanda: They go from house to house distributing books. They ring the bell and just the dog answers. (laughter) Yadubara: The dog is living in this big house. Harikeśa: The people are out on the streets. Brahmānanda: [break] ...the dog. Prabhupāda: [break] ...you meet Bon Mahārāja, and if he talks again time, say, "You were sent in London for establishing a temple, why you could not do it? You remained there for three, four years. And why you were called back by Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī? What did you do for the three, four years in spite of full support from Gauḍīya Maṭha?" We were sending seven hundred rupees. In those days seven hundred rupees means nowadays seven thousand. He was squandering the money. "Authority, authority, scholarly, how many books you have published from your institution for the last forty years?" He was in London. In the 1930's he came back. Came back means Guru Mahārāja called him back. Then he separated from Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he tried to start this institution. Sometimes in the 1945, '47..., not '40, '30. And it is '75, clear forty years. So what books you have published? Authority, scholarly, what books you have published? And how many scholars you have produced? Why it is closed now? Satsvarūpa: He's bluffing. Prabhupāda: He has simply collected money like anything by this bluff. Now people are asking that. Therefore Dalmia said one of the trustees, "You better give it to Bhaktivedanta Swami." They have seen. They have taken money from them. Or for maintaining the institution he regularly gets money from rich men in Calcutta, Bombay, one thousand, two thousand, 1,500, like that. Satsvarūpa: He has given the school some title, "Oriental Institute." It is called the Oriental Institute? Brahmānanda: Institute of Oriental Philosophy. Prabhupāda: Institute of Oriental Philosophy? Yes. And the students are coming to him with knives. That is his popularity. Amongst his own students, he is threatened with knife. And he has to sign something by such threatening. (end) Morning Walk -- July 1, 1975, Denver Brahmānanda: One friend of the temple, one man, he has purchased it at a very high price, and he has lent it for your stay. These glasses are bulletproof. [break] This is a Lincoln Continental, Ford company. Prabhupāda: Why he stopped? [break] ...without car? (Brahmānanda laughs) [break] ...Nixon's home. Brahmānanda: He has in Florida, Key Biscayne. He had two homes, one in Florida, one in California. But now he's staying in Florida. Recently he went to New York and testified before a committee. It's the first time that he has spoken publicly since his... Prabhupāda: What is that committee? Brahmānanda: They were investigating the Watergate. Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, he had to present himself. *Brahmānanda: Yes. It's the first time any ex*-chief executive has ever testified. Prabhupāda: So he is not out of danger. Brahmānanda: Well, they're still investigating the whole thing. Prabhupāda: But I heard that he made a condition that he will no more be bothered. On this condition, he agreed to resign. [break] ...India the trouble is dissention between Indira Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Nārāyaṇa. So that Jaya Prakash Nārāyaṇa is fasting, I have heard. *Brahmānanda: That gentleman said. The doctor said. He's seventy*-nine years of age. *Prabhupāda: Seventy*-nine? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Is there any danger to us from her arresting so many people? Prabhupāda: No. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now she has clearly indicated that she is like a dictator. Otherwise how could she arrest... *Prabhupāda: So both of them are in distressed condition. I am thinking of writing them about Bhagavad*-gītā. Do you think it is advised? They can... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Nixon would be more inclined to read it than Mrs. Gandhi. Because she already has rejected Hindu culture. Prabhupāda: Who? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gandhi. I mean, she always turns towards the Muslims more. Prabhupāda: No, no, she has guru. And she is going occasionally to Anandamayi. Brahmānanda: Yeah, that guru has spoken highly of our movement. In Germany there was an interview of him in one German magazine, and he was asked about all different types of groups. And most of the groups he criticized, but our group he gave his recommendation, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Prabhupāda: What did he say? *Brahmānanda: I don't remember exactly, but he stressed the importance of the chanting of the mahā*-mantra. He said "It is an important means for God realization, and by doing this, one can achieve love of God, and they are spreading this all over the world." *Prabhupāda: So what do you think? Shall I write? Hm? I have made a draft of letter this night. So you come and see. Let us take a chance. We want actually good for everyone. And this is the only medicine, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. For any problem. Para*-duḥkha-duḥkhī. People are suffering. If her guru has opined like that, then she may take some attention. Then it appears that guru is to some extent nice. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: She gave interview to our men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw her twice. Prabhupāda: Oh, you saw? How did (s)he talk with you? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She was very respectful. And she wished our movement well. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She said that she had difficulty to take an active part, because then she would have to take an active part in all such movements. Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's it. That is the difficulty. She said frankly. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because we asked her to attend the cornerstone ceremony at Māyāpur. Prabhupāda: So, shall we take a chance? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it might be nice. Prabhupāda: All right. Then write two registered letters, one to Jaya Prakash Narayana... [break] ...astrologer, who was telling me? Brahmānanda: Oh, Bhāvānanda Mahārāja, he knows. The astrologer in Māyāpur? Bhāvānanda: Oh, Mr... In Svarūp Gañj there's one big astrologer. So he saw your photograph, and he said, "This is the face of the most powerful spiritual personality on the planet." Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Brahmānanda: Then what else? Bhāvānanda: Then he said that "I can tell from his face that he can make a house in which the whole world can live peacefully." Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda! Prabhupāda: At least I desire so. [break] Where your preaching was going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were preaching in Berkeley, California. Our other parties are spread out all over the country. One party is in Massachusetts, another party is in the South, southern United States. Prabhupāda: Where in Massachusetts? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Amherst area. Then another party is in Michigan, another party in Illinois, another party is in Washington, in the state of Washington. There's a couple of others. Prabhupāda: So his parties are working more. And book selling is going on? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. This past month we sold nearly five thousand big books. Prabhupāda: Oh? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And about 120,000 Back to Godheads. Prabhupāda: So you are surpassing, what is his name? Devotees: Tripurāri Mahārāja. (Prabhupāda laughs) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're just following in his footsteps. [break] Viṣṇujana: ...a bus now, so he's going to compete by making new devotees and expanding his ranks. [break] Prabhupāda: ...competition amongst the gopīs, who can satisfy Kṛṣṇa more. In the spiritual world there is also competition. [break] ...two parties, one, Rādhārāṇī's party, and one, Candravāli's party. (Car horn honks) Come on. (laughs) Brahmānanda: They were saluting us. Prabhupāda: Outsider? Brahmānanda: Yes. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When we distribute these books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we think that it is you who are distributing them, that they are your books, and we are simply assisting to offer them to people. It is actually you who are doing all the preaching. Prabhupāda: It is Kṛṣṇa's book, we are all servants, engaged. [break] (laughing) Here your parents accusing me, and in India the caste brāhmaṇas accusing me. My standing... I do not know what is my standing. Your parents are accusing me, "This rascal, converting our sons to become mendicant without any material enjoyment." And there, "This rascal is giving sacred thread to the mlecchas and yavanas." (Still laughing) Viṣṇujana: Is that why you keep traveling, Prabhupāda, so they won't catch you? Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni was accused by Prajāpati Dakṣa that "You are traveling in the dress of a sādhu, but you are the most sinful man. You have turned my sons in the renounced order of life to become beggar, without any advancement, without any enjoyment." So that accusation is always there, beginning from Nārada Muni down to us. Some parents came to demonstrate? Brahmānanda: In Los Angeles, yes. I understand they've demonstrated before, someone was saying? They had placards, and they were marching. Bhāvānanda: In Laguna Beach they also. Prabhupāda: Therefore Dr. Judah has said... Brahmānanda: He has dedicated his book, "To the parents and to the devotees." Prabhupāda: He has tried to pacify the parents. Brahmānanda: Yes. Another parent is coming to see you today. Prabhupāda: Oh, to accuse me? (laughter) Brahmānanda: No, her son said she is very favorable. She's the mother of Parīkṣit. Prabhupāda: Your mother was very angry upon us. (laughter) You know that? When she came to see me, I told, "Mrs. Bruce, can you give me some money?" (laughing) (Imitating angry woman's voice:) "I have given you two sons!" (laughter) She was very angry. "Still you want money?" (laughter) "And that's all right." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You asked them to bow down to her? Prabhupāda: No, I asked him to bow down to your mother. Brahmānanda: Yes, at initiation. Prabhupāda: After initiation. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Did she like... Prabhupāda: I gave her proper respect. Mother, after all, she is. She is fortunate mother. She has produced such nice sons. And I offered her respect, yes. Any of your mother and father, they are all very fortunate. And you are doing... giving the best service to your family. Our Nitāi's mother came. She looked very nice lady, yes. I think you are the first child. Nitāi: Yes. Prabhupāda: Therefore she looks young, not very old. Within forty? Nitāi: Over forty, I think. Within fifty. Prabhupāda: Oh. But she looks younger. And your grandmother? Nitāi: She is eighty. *Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...Dakṣa accused Nārada that "My sons were not out of the three kinds of debts." One debt is debtor to the saintly sages. Just like we are reading Śrīmad*-Bhāgavatam, we are indebted to Vyāsadeva. He has given such literature, and we are taking advantage of it. As such, especially the brāhmaṇas, they have got indebtedness to big sages and saintly person. They receive knowledge from them. And they are indebtor to the demigods. Therefore they have to perform yajñas. And they are indebtor to their father because the father has brought them to this world. So in this way, especially a brāhmaṇa is indebted to demigods, the past sages, and the father. So the indebtedness to the sages is performed by becoming brahmacārī, and to the demigods by offering sacrifices, and to the father by begetting children, to continue the progeny. So Nārada Muni was accused that "You keep them indebted to these principles, so how they can be liberated? Simply by dressing like you, (laughs) a mendicant?" Accusing. But perhaps he did not know. There is another version in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Brahmānanda: This tree? [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes when we're reading *Bhāgavatam* about the prajāpatis... They are such exalted persons. Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are no ordinary person. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yet sometimes they behave in such a way that is... Prabhupāda: That is... After all, they are living entity, conditioned. They are also conditioned. They are not liberated. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're not pure devotees. Prabhupāda: No. They want enjoyment, material. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still, they're entrusted with very big posts. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: But Lord Brahmā, he's a prajāpati. Prabhupāda: He is the chief prajāpati. Satsvarūpa: Isn't he a pure devotee? Prabhupāda: No. *Satsvarūpa: And yet he composed the Brahma*-saṁhitā. Prabhupāda: Yes, he is devotee, not to the topmost extent. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we hear that Lord Brahmā incarnated as Ṭhākura Haridāsa. Prabhupāda: Yes. Satsvarūpa: Sometimes devotees say, "Then how come he's the head of our sampradāya if he's not a pure devotee?" Prabhupāda: It doesn't require. He is a devotee. That's all right. There are grades of devotee, but on the whole, a devotee is very exalted person. Just like gopīs. Nobody can be compared with the gopīs. There are so many grades of devotees, but they are ultimate. And amongst the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī. So there is no comparison, no more... Even Kṛṣṇa is defeated there. Kṛṣṇa became Caitanya Mahāprabhu to understand the devotion of Rādhārāṇī. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. [break] (About something by the path:) ...queen. Elizabeth? No. Queen or king? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there a plaque there? Brahmānanda: It's a symbol for something. Harikeśa: They usually make justice to be like that. [break] Satsvarūpa: Allegorical. Prabhupāda: Allegorical? Satsvarūpa: It's not a historial person. One lady represents learning, another... They represent different things. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All, women. [break] Prabhupāda: ...imperson. Brahmānanda: Cupid is there, and it is marked "love." Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] (To Harikeśa, who has been coughing throughout:) ...not taking any medicine? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: This continuing is not good. Harikeśa: I stopped eating anything but fruit, and that's what I did. [break] Prabhupāda: ...examined your chest? Harikeśa: No. Prabhupāda: Oh, you should examine your chest. Some congestion in the lungs. [break] Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, around our society now there are many devotees who are following different kinds of diets. They read some book and they get some idea. They follow... Prabhupāda: This is not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And one of the things I see about the unique feature of all the diets that they have in common is that the devotees more or less stop taking the prasādam which is offered to the Deity. Prabhupāda: This is not good. [break] *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems to me that one of the important aspects of bhakti*-yoga is to depend upon Kṛṣṇa for one's maintenance. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So whatever is offered to the Deity, one should accept. Prabhupāda: The prasādam is not suitable? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well it is standard prasādam. Capatis, rice, dahl, subji, fruits. Prabhupāda: So why they do not like? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they are reading these books... Prabhupāda: And becoming influenced. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. This should be stopped. Sudāmā: A lot of devotees, they take these fasting for twenty days, thirty days, fasting. Prabhupāda: That means they are manufacturing their own way of life. That's not good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our best devotees, Śrīla Prabhupāda, he recently left our association. And one of the... I know the biggest reason is that he was fasting completely from almost all foods for thirty days. Prabhupāda: But fasting is good. If one can fast, that is good. That is tapasya. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But see, they read these books in addition. Prabhupāda: Fasting is not bad. If one can fast, that is very good. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Total fast, you mean? Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: I remember in Los Angeles... Prabhupāda: That is great austerity. Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that we should not fast more than one day. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I wanted to point out to you that the results... *Prabhupāda: No, artificial... Just like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he was fasting, but he was not weak. That fasting. And he who will fast artificially and become weak, "I cannot work," that is not required. That is called markaṭa*-vairāgya. If you fast and at the same time you do not become weak, then that is recommended. And after fasting you cannot do a flat, fall flat, then what is the use of fasting? Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī was fasting, but he was taking thrice bathing and offering obeisances hundred times. His regular activities was not stopped. And he was taking every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we cannot imitate his position. Prabhupāda: That is not possible. We have to work. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One of the important things about taking prasādam is that all the devotees sit together. It is actually a very spiritual activity. Just like in Caitanya*-caritāmṛta, the feasts... Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is recommended, that we are following. But now it is not following? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have to say frankly, I have seen now that in many... I don't want to get into mentioning any names, but some devotees are preaching this. Prabhupāda: Preaching? Who is that nonsense, preaching. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Revatīnandana Mahārāja. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is preaching like this. Prabhupāda: He is a rascal. He is becoming rascal, day by day. Stop him doing these things. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he's influencing other people. The whole temple in Laguṇa Beach, they were doing this. Prabhupāda: Then, what can I do? You are all GBCs. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now that we know, we'll take action. Prabhupāda: Yes. Revatinandana is becoming less and less spiritually. He had good potency, but he is losing that. Devotee (1): You said that if we fast and we can't do our work and we become weak, than this is not so good. Prabhupāda: This is not good, "not so" not, absolutely bad. Devotee (1): So, our devotional service comes first? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): So if there is, let us say there is grain and rice being offered to the Deities, and one finds that if he eats this, his service is impaired. Like so many times I've seen, practically myself if I overeat grains in the summertime, I drive around doing my service and I'm falling asleep. Prabhupāda: Then which foodstuff suits you? Devotee (1): Fruits are more... they keep me more active. Prabhupāda: So you take fruit. Fruit is also offered to the Deity. There are varieties of prasādam. So whichever suits, you can take. Anything artificial is bad. Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Los Angeles they are charging money for the prasādam, and we find that it's cheaper to buy our own prasādam and offer it ourself. Prabhupāda: Hm? Yadubara: They are charging money in Los Angeles for the prasādam each meal, so we find it is cheaper to... Prabhupāda: Prepare your own? Yadubara: Yes. Prabhupāda: So you do that. Harikeśa: Yes. They will not let a householder take unless they pay money first. Yadubara: 75c for noon prasādam and 50c for breakfast. Prabhupāda: So if you can prepare cheaper, you can do that. Yadubara: All right. [break] Brahmānanda: It's a type of cannon. [break] *Yadubara: You mentioned before that it is better that we not do so much cooking. If everyone is separately cooking, then that is such a time*-consuming thing for everyone. Prabhupāda: But you said that "If we cook, it is cheaper." Then? If it is cheaper, convenient, then you cook. I said that "You save time. Don't cook." Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cheapest thing is to cook one thing for... cook for everyone. That is the cheapest and quickest. Bhāvānanda: During Māyāpur festival, Śrīla Prabhupāda, nicest thing was when we all sat down together and took prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāvānanda: Five hundred devotees, it was nice, spiritual activity. And everyone took what was given. Prabhupāda: So what is the difficulty? I do not find. [break] Bhāvānanda: ...the tongue, I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break] Prabhupāda: Capati, rice is innocent food. What is the difficulty? Bhāvānanda: It's nice. Prabhupāda: Over and above, there is fruit. Harikeśa: A lot of devotees are quoting you that... they say that there is no need to eat grains, that you said grains were for the animals. Prabhupāda: I am... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But Prabhupāda is eating grains. (laughter) Harikeśa: I tell them that. Prabhupāda: Rascal, they say, "Prabhupāda says." And you believe that. [break] Bhāvānanda: ...I think the people are spoiled. If they go to India, they see that here they're turning down rice; there the people are dying for lack of rice. Prabhupāda: Where? Bhāvānanda: In India. And here they're saying, "Oh, I don't want this and don't want that. I don't want this grain, that grain." But in India people are dying for want of food. Here they're so spoiled. [break] Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa's position. If He does not supply grains, then He is accused. And He supplies grains, then He is accused. (laughter) Bhāvānanda: Everyone is accused. [break] Satsvarūpa: ...those scientists came to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and even said milk was no good. Prabhupāda: Yes. Yadubara: That is what they say in these books on health, these health books. They say that cow milk is no good. Prabhupāda: Ācchā? Harikeśa: But meat is all right. Yadubara: No, some of them, most of them don't say that. It's very contaminating to read those and to follow. Prabhupāda: Therefore follow taking prasādam. Let whatever may happen. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the best thing. Let us die eating prasādam. Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) That is devotee. Sudāmā: Because in the beginning, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you encouraged us, all of us, to take much prasādam, to our full satisfaction. Prabhupāda: Yes. I say still. *Sudāmā: You said that that is one of our greatest weapons against māyā, is Kṛṣṇa*-prasāda. [break] Yadubara: I'm a good example that these diets are not very good. (laughter) I can testify. Brahmānanda: Me too. Prabhupāda: The diets are not good or you are not good? Yadubara: Oh. [break] ...for one year to alter the diet in so many ways and it never worked. It was useless. [break] Devotee (2): I think that's for maintaining the right depth to the lake. I think they have a pump house down here, and they maintain the depth of the lake by these things. Prabhupāda: Water is supplied or...? Devotee (2): Yes. Devotee (1): Prabhupāda? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): In Denver here we have many businesses going on for you. And we are out engaging karmīs in helping us retrieve lakṣmī. We are going to them for lakṣmī in so many ways. How is it that this engages them, or does it engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service? Do they make any benefit? Prabhupāda: What they are doing by doing business? They are gṛhasthas doing business? Brahmānanda: They are outsiders, karmīs, they manufacture jewelry and some shirts, for which they get a salary. Devotee (1): Yes, but the devotees are maintaining the business. And I myself go out and talk to rascals all day long, demons, mlecchas. Am I engaging them in Kṛṣṇa's service by taking lakṣmī? Prabhupāda: What you are doing with the money? Devotee (1): I'm giving it to the temple president so that we can buy a farm for you. Prabhupāda: No, if you are engaging the money for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right. Brahmānanda: He's asking about is there any benefit to the karmīs that he deals with because he engages in business activity with them? Do the karmīs get benefit? Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent they are helping Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Yadubara: They also have this program in Pittsburg, the same thing. They come to the temple and manufacture jewelry. *Prabhupāda: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. It is mentioned in the Bhagavad*-gītā. You can see there. Everyone can work, but the result of the work should go to Kṛṣṇa. [break] Devotee (1): ...lakṣmī from them so we can engage them more in Kṛṣṇa's service. Prabhupāda: Provided you engage them for Kṛṣṇa's service. Otherwise the lakṣmī will kill you. Just like Sītā, Sītā is Lakṣmī. When Sītā was taken by Rāvaṇa, the result was the whole family was killed because they did not use Sītā for Rāma's service. [break] ...householders can be engaged, not anyone else. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So my question is: Supposing half of those men that are in our movement are householders. Would it not be more beneficial that everyone engages in preaching work, or is that impractical? Prabhupāda: Preaching is for the sannyāsīs, for the brahmacārī. And householder, because they are brāhmaṇas, they can be engaged in Deity worship and also earning money. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Business. Prabhupāda: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not more practical to earn money by preaching? Prabhupāda: If preaching, by preaching we can get money, why should we go to the karmīs? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you wrote me in a letter that so far as you are concerned, you think that your books are enough to maintain the society. Prabhupāda: I think so. But if they think that by doing some other business, they will get more money, then what can I say? This is very good business. Yes. We are preaching, at the same time getting money. Devotee (2): We have found in our experience that some kinds of men do better in doing business. They feel more satisfied in collecting money in that way for Kṛṣṇa. Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that money should be used for Kṛṣṇa. Devotee (2): Yes. Different kinds of men have to be engaged in different ways. Otherwise they become dissatisfied. Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, svakarmaṇā. Anyone, he likes to do something, that is his karma. But by that karma, he can serve Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate navaḥ. Saṁsiddhi means perfection. [break] Devotee (1): ...in our preaching work we will be able to maintain our temples, and with our business activities, we will be able to expand and buy all these farms, do so many things. Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is favorable, do it, business.(?) Therefore we have made program: 50% must come to Kṛṣṇa, at least. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] (In car:) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...because that many people are involved. Prabhupāda: Dieting, the best thing is to take prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Definitely. It's clear cut. My only feeling about... Prabhupāda: And if our... Pushed on our men... The thing is they supply more spices, and especially that mustard. This is not good. This is prohibited. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be mild, prasādam. Prabhupāda: Practically no spices. Simply little cumin. And this turmeric. Turmeric you get from India, whole turmeric. This powdered turmeric is very, very bad. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unhealthy. Harikeśa: They put sawdust in it. Prabhupāda: That's all. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very unhealthy. Prabhupāda: It is very cheating. Any powdered spice is not good. Harikeśa: Asafoetida also. Prabhupāda: Everything. As soon as it is powder, they will mix with all rubbish things. And it is very easy to cheat you. You are susceptible for being cheated. So they take advantage and cheat you. So best thing is to import spices from India whole and either get it powdered or during time of cooking you make them paste. That is first class. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Crushing. Prabhupāda: You just put the spices water, soaked in water for some time, and then in mortar and pestle you... Dhanañjaya: Smash it. Prabhupāda: That is very nice. And immediately you fresh prepare and put into the vegetable. It will be tasteful, and it will be beneficial. All spices are beneficial. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And much cheaper. Prabhupāda: Cheaper, of course, there is no question to you what is cheaper. For you everything is "damn cheap." *Harikeśa: The Rādhā*-Dāmodara party has very good prasādam program. This halavā they make every morning-everyone is fully satisfied. Prabhupāda: They are sane men. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every morning we have... Prabhupāda: So why do they not follow your principle? Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, it's very... And the devotees love it. Every day, Prabhupāda, we... Prabhupāda: No, every temple give them example, invite them in your prasādam. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's what I'm going to do today. Harikeśa: I noticed the devotees would wait for prasādam with great... *Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. It requires good leader, that's all. [break] ...Kṛṣṇa we must prepare very first*-class foodstuff, and where is the complaint if it is first class? *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's all a concoction. Certain devotees have concocted. They have taken advice from other masters, food masters, what to eat, what not to eat, all concoction. It's clearly written in Bhagavad*-gītā, those foods which are sattvic-juicy, fatty. Everything is mentioned there. Prabhupāda: Yes. Guide them. [break] ...here the main business is slaughterhouse. Brahmānanda: In this state. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow country, it's called. They call it that. On the highway you see that, "Cow country." Prabhupāda: Chicago is also this... Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, very bad. That is very bad. Brahmānanda: There's one area of the town that there's a bad odor. Prabhupāda: Here also they say. Just like in Bombay, the Bandra(?). Harikeśa: Ah, terrible. *Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's Viṣṇujana doing? [break] ...Deity, I've never seen it. He gets up early in the morning, wakes Him up, cooks for Him, then we offer ārati, then bathing and dressing the Deity, sings for Him all day. He's so devoted to Rādhā*-Dāmodara. *Prabhupāda: Svarūpa*-siddhi, arcana-siddhi. By simply worshiping Deity one can become perfect. Arcana-siddhi. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a great advantage of our bus. Now we just traveled for two days in a row from San Francisco, but we did not miss one ārati, we had six āratis, full prasādam. We took bath on the bus in our shower room. We had regular classes, kīrtana all day. It was undisturbed. Prabhupāda: So why not one week with them? I am prepared. (end) Morning Walk -- July 2, 1975, Denver Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So bullet expected also? (laughs) Brahmānanda: All great leaders, they live in constant fear. *Prabhupāda: Bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syāt. Everyone, animal up to the king of heaven*-always fearful. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. So fearfulness is one of the qualification of conditioned soul. Yesterday you were putting forward the logic, "Machine." Machine, we also accept. In Bhagavad-gītā it is mentioned, this body is machine, yantra. Yantra means machine. So at the same time, you said, "Growing." Do you grow machine Ford car? Ambarīṣa: Do they grow? No, they... (laughs) Prabhupāda: Then how the analogy is perfect? Machine it is. That is accepted. Kṛṣṇa says. That is undoubtedly, it is machine. It is nothing but machine. So machine, at the same time, he says, "It grows." How it can be comparable? Brahmānanda: The body is compared to a machine. Prabhupāda: Not... It is machine, not compared. It is machine. Actually it is machine. Brahmānanda: But then it cannot grow because a machine does not grow. Prabhupāda: No. Ambarīṣa: So it is changing every second. Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this is a car, machine, but if I want a bigger car, that means another car, not this car is growing. Suppose sometimes you get baby car. That is not sufficient. I want big car. So you cannot say that increase the baby car and it becomes a sedan car. That means you require another big car. A child, a child cannot have sex in that body. The same child, when he wants to enjoy sex, he must have another body. So these rascals, they cannot understand how different machines has been supplied by nature. It is supplying. Ambarīṣa: Yes, I think it's... *Prabhupāda: As soon as you want another machine, immediately it is... Svābhāvikī bala-kriyā ca parāsya śaktir vividhaiva. His potencies, his merit, is acting. Not his merit, means the nature's merit, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27], it is working so swiftly. You cannot see. The same example as I give always, that the movies spool, each is a different picture, but when it is put into the projector, you cannot understand. But actually on the background there are different pictures. So if ordinary cinematograph, cinema picture, we can make like that, how much nicely and subtle machine is there, it is being done*-that you do not know. But each body, each second, you are being supplied a different body. Brahmānanda: Like each of the different frames. Prabhupāda: Huh? Brahmānanda: On the film each frame is different. Prabhupāda: Is different. Brahmānanda: Each picture. But what appears to be a complete... Prabhupāda: So in one picture you will find hand is here, another picture hand is here, another hand is here, but when they are taken together, it means the hand moves. The example is there. Each picture is a different picture. As soon as you stop it, the hand is here. That's all. Ambarīṣa: So each second the body is a little different? *Prabhupāda: Yes. Each second the body is different. But what this rascal will do? How they will know? They have no brain. All dull*-headed materialistic, mūḍha. They cannot understand this. But this is the process going on. I want, for certain thing, I want a different body. Immediately nature supplies. Yadubara: Even within this body? *Prabhupāda: Why within? Another body you cannot see. Not within*-without. Another body supplied. Ambarīṣa: Sometimes when people are put into a dangerous situation, they acquire extraordinary strength, just like that, that they never had before. So it's like they... *Prabhupāda: No, no. You must expect according to your quality. Just like if Kṛṣṇa wants, He can make something else. But you are not independent. You are dependent on nature, and your position is very insignificant. But Kṛṣṇa can, as soon as He wishes*-immediately done. Parasya śaktir vividhaiva. Just like in Bible it is said, "God said, 'Let there be creation.' There was creation immediately." But you cannot do that. But if you... Whatever you are desiring, nature is supplying you. Kṛṣṇa is also being supplied by nature, that is spiritual nature. And you are also being supplied by the material nature. So both nature is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra... [Bg. 3.27]. Each stage is a different form. That is going on. Ambarīṣa: The scientists say that every seven years the body... Prabhupāda: Not seven years. A medical man says every moment the blood corpuscles are changing. Ambarīṣa: Are different? Prabhupāda: Yes. New blood cells are coming into being. So you cannot say machine growing. That is fallacious. A machine, new machine. (Everyone gets out of car) Ambarīṣa: New machine, jaya. Prabhupāda: As soon as I want a smaller car, not smaller car, I want bigger car, smaller car also. That is change. Whatever you deserve. You desire; at the same time, you deserve. First deserve, then desire. Just like these rascals, "I desire to become God." That kind of desire will never be fulfilled. Yadubara: It's according to the qualification also. Prabhupāda: Yes. Your position is very minute. So you can desire up to that limit, not that you can desire "I become complete, universal." That is the defect of the Māyāvāda. "Because I am equal... So 'ham. Because I am qualitatively one, therefore I am one in every respect." A drop of ocean water, if he desires, "I become ocean," that is not possible. But a drop of ocean water contains the same ingredients as the big Pacific Ocean. So in your quantitative proportion, if you desire, that is your perfection. Brahmānanda: Understanding one's position. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: That's sensible. [break] Devotee (1): Like in the Tenth Chapter it's talking about... Prabhupāda: Hm, not come very near. Yes? Devotee (1): It's talking about that Arjuna saw the universal form, all these universes and all that. So does that mean like you were talking that one can't become a universal being, but he can see the whole universe. Can you explain how that is? Prabhupāda: How is that? You can see the universe; that does not mean that you can become universe. You can see the sky; *that does not mean you become as big as sky. [break] ...small, minute shining sparks, minute combination. So they are also shining, but that does not mean they can become as good, as big, as the sun. [break] ...the defect of the Māyāvāda philosophy. They think of themselves too much. Therefore they remain here, always in māyā. [break] ...abuddhayaḥ, means the intelligence is not purified. They are called aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ or viśuddha [SB 10.2.32], "without purification of knowledge." [break] ...kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta-yuṣmād-aṅghrayaḥ. They fall down. [break] ...this symbol? Harikeśa: Some fountain. Prabhupāda: No, there are some children, symbolic. Brahmānanda: They're looking at the water. [break] Prabhupāda: ...written, "Danger." Now they are going to the safety. What is danger, there is that safety. Now, what is danger and what is safety? Brahmānanda: That means it is relative. Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is relative. Therefore it is called relative world. [break] Brahmānanda: It's according to the body. Because the duck has a particular body, the water for him is safety, and because we have this particular body, it is dangerous. Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): [break] ...true that when you become more purified that you will see everything differently with your eyes and hear everything differently with your ears and all this? Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee (1): We won't see things the way we perceive them now, right? Prabhupāda: If you are suffering from cataract, how you can see distinctly? You have to get your eyes operated. Then you can see. So our bhakti process is simply purifying, purifying, more, more, more. When you are completely purified, you see God face to face, eye to eye, talk with Him, play with Him, just like cowherds boys, they are playing, the gopīs are dancing. You get that position. [break] Yadubara: ...You said in the *Bhāgavatam*, speaking about Dhruva Mahārāja, that his senses became enlivened. *Prabhupāda: Senses are there. It is purified. Sarvopādhi*-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. The bhakti process is completely, complete process to purify you. Other process are not. Karma, jñāna, yoga cannot purify you cent percent, but bhakti process can purify you cent percent. Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what's the difference between a Brahmavādī and a Māyāvādī? Prabhupāda: That you already questioned. We answered. Harikeśa: I did? Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...vādī means those who are aspiring to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence. Harikeśa: And Māyāvādīs, they do not attain that impersonal realization? Prabhupāda: Māyāvādīs remain fools forever. Harikeśa: They never leave this material platform. *Prabhupāda: They do not know. They have no knowledge. Aviśuddha*-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32], always impure. Otherwise how they are thinking, so 'ham: "I am same. I am God. I am moving the sun, I am..." Such rascals, they remain always in ignorance. [break] ...no sense that "If I am the same, then why I have fallen down in this māyā?" They say, "It is my līlā. I have become dog. So it is my līlā. I have become hog. It is my līlā." (laughs) This is their philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Māyāvāda. They are fools, mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Māyāvādī means māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: "Their knowledge has been taken away by māyā." Fools. Either you call them fool or call them lowest of the mankind or the most sinful, whatever way you can call, they are like that. All good qualifications. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has warned, māyāvādī-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa: [Cc. Madhya 6.169] "If you hear from Māyāvādī, then your spiritual life is finished." It's so dangerous. Harikeśa: The Brahmavādīs have some possibility of advancement? Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Harikeśa: What is that thing that enables them to advance? Prabhupāda: That you will know later on. First of all try to understand this. Don't try to understand everything in a moment. That is foolishness. [break] That argument is clear? Ambarīṣa: Yes. Prabhupāda: That if you call it a machine, how the machine can grow? Ambarīṣa: The machine is changing at every second. Prabhupāda: You say two things: "Growing" and "machine." So that is incomparable. Machine cannot grow. Ambarīṣa: Jaya. [break] Brahmānanda: ...many machines. You get another machine, another one, and another and another. Prabhupāda: So I have changed so many machines. So death means another machine. Where is the difficulty? Ambarīṣa: When the spirit soul leaves the body, the body continues to change, it deteriorates? *Prabhupāda: No, no. Spirit soul is changing machine. That is explained in the Bhagavad*-gītā. So when this machine is finished, and another machine. Ambarīṣa: The old machine continues to change after the spirit soul leaves, it deteriorates? The old machine deterior..., it breaks down. Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You give up one machine and you take another machine. [break] Devotee (1): ...one goes into a subtle machine? *Prabhupāda: That example is given, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like your dress, when it is useless, you throw it away and take another dress. It is stated in the Bhagavad*-gītā. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya gṛhṇāti naraḥ aparāṇi. You accept another set of dress. Clearly explained. [break] ...also very scientific. Just like according to your last life's desires, you have got this dress, this body. So it is going on, going on, going on. Now you are creating another set of desires in this life. So you require a different dress. Then you begin another satisfaction of your desires. This is going on. Karmāṇa daiva-netreṇa: [SB 3.31.1] by your karma, you are creating a situation. Just like the criminal, he has created a situation; *he cannot live anymore outside the jail. "Come on, here." He will go in automatically. So they do not know how nature is working. It is clearly said, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. "Nature is working, and that nature is working," mayādhyakṣeṇa [Bg. 9.10], "under My superintendence." Everything is there. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa*-carācaram. Jagat, it is changing, always changing. How it is changing? Under the direction of God. Mayādhyakṣeṇa. Devotee (1): Only Kṛṣṇa is doing everything then. Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is not like you that when you are given some business, you become embarrassed. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and you. He never becomes embarrassed. Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it true that our advancement in devotional services... Is it influenced a lot by our past karma, how many sinful activities we have committed? Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Bhakti is not under karma. Bhakti is under your good will. If you accept to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you can do that without being checked by anything else. Simply you have to will, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa. You are asking me. So long I did not do. From this day I do." That will depend upon you. Devotee (2): Not that if I was more sinful, I would make less advancement than somebody who is more pious. *Prabhupāda: Whatever you may be, simply surrender and everything is finished. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva*-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ... [Bg. 18.66]. Even if you are sinful, Kṛṣṇa will give you release, "All right. You have surrendered. That's all right." That is wanted. If you reserve something and cheat Kṛṣṇa, "Now I am surrendering," Kṛṣṇa is very intelligent. "You have still reservation. No." [break] Devotee (1): ...it's easier to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. *Prabhupāda: Yes, in sattva*-guṇa one can see, one can understand his position. [break] *Devotee (2): Does he experience the miseries of the gross body when he's in sattva*-guṇa, in the mode of goodness? Does he experience hunger and thirst, those things like that? Prabhupāda: Gross body means no hunger? *Devotee (2): When a person's in sattva*-guṇa, he's not so much feeling the pain... *Prabhupāda: He is not disturbed by the rajo*-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. That is sattva-guṇa. Naṣṭa-prayeṣv abhadreṣu [SB 1.2.18]. He can be disturbed by rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa, but when he is in sattva-guṇa, he is not so much disturbed. And if he increase and go to the pure sattva-guṇa, suddha-sattva, then he is no more disturbed. At that time he can understand what is God. [break] ...you are strongly situated in sattva-guṇa, the other base qualities cannot disturb you. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. Other guṇa means lusty desires and greediness. This thing will be finished when you are strongly situated in sattva-guṇa. Then you go advance more and more. [break] ...hear about Kṛṣṇa, to chant about Kṛṣṇa, means cleansing, cleansing the dirty things of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. [break] ...world is going on on rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. Very minute quantity of population are by sattva-guṇa. Brahmānanda: Perhaps only in India will you find people in... *Prabhupāda: Yes, some. That is also deteriorating. [break] The sattva*-guṇa... the Māyāvādī, they are also supposed to be in sattva-guṇa, but mixed with rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Therefore not pure. Devotee (2): You were saying that when one is in the mode of goodness, that he is on the mental platform? Prabhupāda: Hmm? Devotee (2): Does that mean that he's not... He's experiencing the subtle body inside of the gross body, or what does that mean exactly? *Prabhupāda: Mental platform is mixed sattva*-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, not pure. But if you keep always Kṛṣṇa in your mind, then you are purified. The mind has no other opportunity to keep anything else. Kṛṣṇa is sitting there, then guarantee. [break] ...they keep always seeing Viṣṇu form within the heart. Therefore they keep in sattva-guṇa. Similarly, if you keep Kṛṣṇa, then you are in sattva-guṇa. And when that concentration on Kṛṣṇa is not disturbed, then it is śuddha-sattva. That is spiritual platform. [break] ...ekādaśī? Nitāi: It's Saturday, the 6th. Devotee (2): What does the yogi perceive when he cuts off the outer senses, he finally reaches the... Prabhupāda: Perceive? Devotee (2): What does he experience when he cuts off the outer senses and is able to... *Prabhupāda: Outer senses, what do you mean by outer senses*-dead? Devotee (2): His bodily senses. Prabhupāda: There is no question of outer senses. Senses purified. What do you mean by outer senses? Devotee (2): The senses with which you perceive the outer gross... Prabhupāda: That always remains. But when it is not purified, you perceive material things. When it is purified, you perceive spiritual things. Devotee (2): So the same gross senses will be able to see spiritual things. Prabhupāda: Yes, it is purified. Bhakti is the purifying process. I have already said. Not that the eyes are suffering from cataract disease, "Pluck out." That is Māyāvādī philosophy. Devotee (2): What does that mean, then, when the yogis withdraw their senses from the objects like it says like the tortoise withdraws his limbs within the shell? What does that refer to then? Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that? I do not follow. Brahmānanda: He asks, in the yoga system... Prabhupāda: Yoga system means always see Supersoul; *that is real yoga system. Perfection. Dhyānāvasthita*-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. Yoginaḥ, being meditating and seeing the Supersoul, this is yoga. Not that he does not see. He is seeing Supersoul. He is seeing nothing else. Devotee (1): He doesn't see the Supersoul with the gross senses, though, does he? Prabhupāda: Pure senses. He does not... Impure senses and pure senses. Devotee (2): How can you tell when your senses are getting purified? Prabhupāda: You will understand Kṛṣṇa more and more. So long your senses are not purified, you will not understand clearly what is Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...understanding Kṛṣṇa means detestful to the material world, attached to Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavaḥ viraktir anyatra syāt. [break] *Devotee (2): Is it true that eventually by this process we'll become purified so we can become like śruti*-dharas? Prabhupāda: That you will see when you become purified. Devotee (2): Then we will actually attain that condition, then. Prabhupāda: Try to become purified. Don't imagine and guess, "What will be the condition when I am purified?" This is all nonsense. Try to become purified. Devotee (2): Then you perceive it. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: You tell the story of the potter. He has many pots. (Prabhupāda laughs) And he tries to imagine what it will be like when he becomes very wealthy. Prabhupāda: That is nonsense, waste time. [break] ...you are eating you will understand yourself, "Yes, I am eating, I am getting strength, I am getting satisfaction." But simply theory..., "What will happen after eating? What will happen?" You eat and you see what is happening. What is the use of asking this question? You eat and you will understand. [break] Brahmānanda: ...Harrison, he wrote in his preface that "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: So he recommended everyone to take up Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break] *Prabhupāda: ...daily, guru*-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā **, what is that? Nitāi: Cittete koriyā aikya. Prabhupāda: Devotee (2): Can you explain exactly what speculation means? Prabhupāda: Speculation means thinking, "What will happen? Maybe like this, maybe like this." That is speculation. [break] ...speculate, "Kṛṣṇa may be like this. Kṛṣṇa may be like this." That is speculation. When Kṛṣṇa appears before you, you see, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is like this." That is wanted. And if you speculate, "Kṛṣṇa may be like this," it is all nonsense. Come to the stage when Kṛṣṇa will appear before you, and you will see what is Kṛṣṇa. Be qualified to that position. Māyāvādīs, they are speculating simply, "God may be like this." Why "God may be like this?" God is factual, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...plane crash took place in John Kennedy? Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: So such a big... simply by touching the electric wire that becomes... Brahmānanda: Well, they were, I think, steel towers, two hundred feet high, so they were pretty sturdy, and it hit four of them. Ambarīṣa: There was some bad weather. Brahmānanda: And then it toppled over. Prabhupāda: No, in bad weather, towers, but simply by touching, such a big machine became in fire. (laughs) Unsafe everywhere. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. Every step, there is danger. Brahmānanda: One of our devotees... I was speaking to him. He was formerly in the air force, an electrician. And he was saying how there are so many wires in an airplane, and actually, when he was electrician, they would put the wires together very hastily in order to get the job done. And he said one of those wires could go wrong and then... Prabhupāda: Finish everything. Brahmānanda: Yes. Prabhupāda: Just see. Brahmānanda: He said the tendency is when you have a job is that you try to find some shortcut. Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmānanda: So everyone is looking for that some shortcut, how to do it quicker, faster. Prabhupāda: [break] ...working sincerely? Nobody. In the material world they cannot work sincerely. [break] ...experienced when any enterprise goes under government supervision, it immediately spoiled. Nobody work sincerely. When it is a private concern, one is sincere because it is his business. If it goes wrong, he will suffer. But when it is government concern, they become irresponsible. That is the experience. Immediately, "Oh, my service is secure. I cannot be kicked out suddenly. So I may do or not do." This is going on. Ambarīṣa: In Russia they will shoot you if you do not do it. Prabhupāda: Well, but there is the tendency, "Do not do." Therefore there is shooting. (laughter) How can you check it? (end)